# Anything wrong with a pinch collar?



## Randy- (Jun 16, 2013)

My uncle, who also has a GSD uses one on his dog on occasion. We were walking one day and I was struggling to teach Dakota, my 8month old white GSD, to heal with just a regular collar. He allowed me to use his pinch collar for the remainder of the walk and I had to give it one stern tug and gave a follow up command. After that, I only ha to do light tugs of she put some tension on the lead. I was also using a traffic lead, I think it's called. It's like a foot or so long and is looped on the handlers end to wrap around the wrist. Her behavior improved 10 fold on that walk alone. I proceeded to buy myself one and have been working with her on it for a week or so. I am now able to walk with the lead completely loose and I even took the lead off with the pinch collar still on and was able to heel her with just a shhhhh follow up command if she got to far forward. My hopes are that this behavior will transfer to her normal collar but I've tried it and she behaves totally different on it. But my question is, is this collar considered bad or evil? And also am I using it properly? 


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i taught my dog to heel on either side with or without a leash
usuing a flat collar and a leash.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The collar is neither good nor evil, it is a tool, and it can be used appropriately or abused.

For you, it is working great, and you are using it exactly as it was intended. Good for you! 

People are put off by how the collar _looks_ but try it on around your thigh, or your arm, or even around your own neck - and give it a pull and a jerk - it does NOT pinch or cause sharp pain. You will find that the prongs spread the pressure out evenly, and all you feel is a squeeze. 

We often refer to the prong collar with negative terms like "pinch collar" and "correction collar", when in reality, it should be called a "communication collar". The dogs get a clear message that they understand and can properly process what you, the person holding the leash, is expecting and wanting - there is no negative association with the collar to the dogs - they are happy to wear it, and most dogs get all excited when they see the collar come out, they associate it with walks and activities, not with corrections.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

doggiedad said:


> i taught my dog to heel on either side with or without a leash
> usuing a flat collar and a leash.


I taught my dog to use the toilet and flush every time. 

She still does play with the toilet paper too much though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We can teach loose leash walking without a prong/pinch collar, but if it is working for you, keep using it. It is much better to get out there and walk your dog under control, than to fight with the dog and give up. 

Since it is not transferring yet to a different collar, I would spend 75% of the walk on the prong collar, and then leave the prong on, and switch your lead to the flat collar. Give it a little time, and if the pulling starts, switch back to the prong. Do this on every walk and try to increase the time that you don't need the prong.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You have to know how to use it correctly, place it on the neck correctly and chose the correct size prongs for your application. The collar should fit snuggly, high on the neck, just below the dogs ears. My guess is that you don't need very heavy guage prongs. There should not be constant tension on the collar/leash. You give a quick, sharp correction and the leash should go slack. With a dog forging while walking, simple reverse the direction you are walking in when the dog forges and give a sharp correction as you swith direction. Also, connect the leash to both rings unless you have a very stubborn, handler hard dog, and then connect the leash to the live ring.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

selzer said:


> I taught my dog to use the toilet and flush every time.
> 
> She still does play with the toilet paper too much though.


:laugh:

Oh my gosh that made me laugh! lol

To the OP, sounds like you are using it correctly. There is a good Leerburg video of how to properly fit a prong, which is up high on the neck, although I find it still slips down on me. Don't nag, just a quick correction and loose leash.

They are only as unkind as the hands wielding them. And whoever said it's the name or look that most people object to is so right. I ride horses and there's something called a crank noseband that people think is so awful, but fitted correctly (ie NOT cranked) they are actually more comfortable for the horse.

Take the 'gentle leader' for example. The name makes it sound wonderful, but my dog hates it with violence, and my vet told me they see a lot of eye/neck injuries and they tend to rub. Yet my dog takes no issue with wearing a prong. So what is more inhumane? I think if you ask my dog, she'd take the prong over the gentle leader. 

But then again, if you asked my dog, she'd say no collar and let me run amok with my ball. :wub:


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

Lulu is 9 months old and LOVES to pull. She would be gasping and sounded really horrible with a flat collar so I started using the prong for walks. 

My daughter (10 years old) objected to me using the prong on Lulu. This opinion was only because it looked scary or painful. I put the prong on her arm and asked her if it hurt and she said no, I then asked her to pull slightly and did it hurt, she said no but it wasnt the most comfortable thing she has ever felt... I told her that was the point. Lulu has to listen to me when we are out and about. I have a 4 year old son and 10 year old girl plus a 9 month old German Shepherd who could pull me around at will. I have to have control over her at all times. Its just not safe other wise. I wouldnt be able to take her out and socialize her. Personally I think that would be worse than using the prong.

Its no replacement for training but it does work while the pup is young and figuring out that they cant run a muck.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

selzer said:


> I taught my dog to use the toilet and flush every time.
> 
> She still does play with the toilet paper too much though.


:rofl:


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## Randy- (Jun 16, 2013)

I leave her flat collar on as well already so I will try to switch on up on her a random on our walks, but honestly I've tried this and I feel as though she needs more time on it. I can literally put it in her and sense that her behavior has changed. With her flat collar I feel as though I have no control over her, and I am not a small guy. I've even tried a gentle leader, and while there is some notion of control, when compared to a prong, the GL doesn't even come close. I refuse to use a choker on her as I view it as ineffective and dangerous. My wife swears by it and uses it on our 5 year old King Charles. The gentle leader ends up irritating me more than the benefit I feel using it. She always paws at it and still pulls. Slightly less than a prong though. This girl is hard headed and very stubborn. But she does learn quick. The prong is by far the best thing I've had the chance to use. It seems as though she likes it as well. She is less stressed while walking. And much more confident because of the praise she gets for good behavior. I have been able to teach her the command "stop" for use at intersections and also have managed to get her to master sitting at said intersections when I stop without a command being given. She also stays in a sit until I say heel. If I were still using the flat collar I feel like I'd still be trying to teach "heel" realize that this progress has been made over a weeks time. I will recommend this collar to anyone with a stubborn dog. Thanks guys for all the advice. 


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## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

i'm using one too. works nice for me on walks. not real help with reactivity to dogs though. makes my boy more crazy.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Restrictive collars exist for people who have a weak contact with their dogs, so, you have put youself to loosers'list already. All leashes and collars are only temporary tools! Your dog knows the command, but she pulls because her attention is not with you. Try walking without any leash or collar in a safe area what available with a treat in your closed hand pressed to your chest. Use two commands "Heel!" and "Walk!" sending her forward and recalling repeatedly. Train her for distraction, recall her and ask her to heel in moments when she doesn't want to. More freedom you give them - more obedient they become.


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## Randy- (Jun 16, 2013)

I understand that this is a training aid and meant to be temporary. I stated in my first post that I want this behavior to transfer to her flat collar and also have stated that I have tried to switch to the flat to no avail. She has however heeled without a lead but still had the prong on. My hopes are to get this same behavior with her flat and even without a lead. I'm assuming that "walk" is for her to walk ahead and use "heel" to recall her back to my side? If so, should I just let her walk ahead of me and start saying walk and praising her then begin to get her ton understand that that is what I want? I can say "ok" and she will run off and play with my uncle's gsd. I hope that she won't get that confused as a release to run off and play. Any advice on how to work on that? 


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> *Restrictive collars exist for people who have a weak contact with their dogs, so, you have put youself to loosers'list already.* All leashes and collars are only temporary tools! Your dog knows the command, but she pulls because her attention is not with you. Try walking without any leash or collar in a safe area what available with a treat in your closed hand pressed to your chest. Use two commands "Heel!" and "Walk!" sending her forward and recalling repeatedly. Train her for distraction, recall her and ask her to heel in moments when she doesn't want to. More freedom you give them - more obedient they become.


Oh boy, what to say.... I once had a rescue dog, half Doberman, half something else that we think included Rhodesian Ridgeback. She lived the first two years of her life on a chain. Her neck was dead to any collar correction except a pinch. And thanks to the possible sighthound, trusting her of leash was out of the question. If she saw something she wanted to chase, she was gone. However, as for "having a weak contact" with her, well, somehow, she never got that memo. She thought I hung the moon.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Apparently I had weak contact with Metro also, though if anyone asked him we were the universe. Apparently my kids (who walked him with ease) were out of touch with their dog too 


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## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

I guess I get David's point. If you teach your dog well you shouldn't have a need for prong. But for most of us pet owners is not just black and white. We (me) make mistakes, may not know best teaching methods and sometimes struggle, even with classes and trainers. So we may use tools that experience owners do not need.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

andreaB said:


> I guess I get David's point. If you teach your dog well you shouldn't have a need for prong. But for most of us pet owners is not just black and white. We (me) make mistakes, may not know best teaching methods and sometimes struggle, even with classes and trainers. So we may use tools that experience owners do not need.


It also depends on the dog - Gryff is very pack-oriented, lives to please me, careful not to rock the boat, thinks before he acts, neutral with other dogs. He spends his life on a flat collar, and when safe, off leash. 

Keeta . . . well, she's another story all together. Has come a loooooong way since I have had her, but all I can say is: Thank goodness for the prong!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> It also depends on the dog - Gryff is very pack-oriented, lives to please me, careful not to rock the boat, thinks before he acts, neutral with other dogs. He spends his life on a flat collar, and when safe, off leash.
> 
> Keeta . . . well, she's another story all together. Has come a loooooong way since I have had her, but all I can say is: Thank goodness for the prong!


Absolutely

Jazzy is my Gryff, I could walk her down a busy street without a leash easy (not that I do!)

Delgado is my Keeta, he's been hard headed from the start and needed a much firmer hand. He respects me, that's for sure, but it was earned and not given lightly  I never needed to physically beat him, but it was a mental battle that went on for months before he gave up and even more every once in a while he'll test it again just to keep me on my toes 


It doesn't matter what you use, flat collars, ecollars, prong, choke, martengale, harness, etc there is NO once size fits all. There are dogs like Jazzy who I can correct with a snap of my finger in the air, and there are dogs like Delgado who need a reminder here and there who's in charge. One isn't better then the other, it's just the way they are.


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## Ceasar (Jul 30, 2012)

I'm going to say that while David's dogs may be incredibly obedient, David himself perhaps has flunked charm school.  

"Loser's list" -- (not looser) offensive. 

I use one. I've used it for every adult dog I've owned. I'm 5'3" and I like big dogs. Using it correctly is fine. I use it often at first and then alternate leads and use it to re-school when necessary. I'm not on the loser's list and neither are you.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

See that? You're all a bunch of 'loosers'. :snowmen:


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

When you say pinch collar do you mean a prong collar? If so, be prepared if you use one that you may get comments from strangers. Sometimes people who have no experience with it will think it's something awful because of how it looks or they think the prongs are sharp or dig into the neck... So sometimes people will say how horrible it is that you are using that on your dog, or similar things. I don't use prong collars anymore but when I did I got a few comments like that before I started using a collar cover.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think AndreaB's post is right on the money. I have used a fur saver for teaching obedience for my last three dogs. Nothing against pinch collars, just too lazy to put it on and really don't need it though my dogs aren't shrinking violets.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> I hope that she won't get that confused as a release to run off and play.


She can do whatever she wants to with "Walk!", but she must walk beside you with "Heel!" I wouldn't expect much at the beginning, use treats, balls, or simply talk to her for stimulation. It takes time. But, in the future, she should walk beside you as long as required. It could be good idea if you walk one and the same route day after day giving her one and the same commands at certain sections of the route. Besides, teaching him not to pull the lead at all, regardless to the way he walks - on a long or on a short traffic leash, you can use a "Canny collar":canny collar - Ïîèñê â Google But, it wouldn't teach your dog to "heel" without the leash.
Sorry for "loosers", I, obviously, didn't try finding a better word. I just believe, that our dog's wish to please us should be the strongest stimulant in training. But, it's difficult - to make our dog looking into our mouth all the time, much easier to put this restrictive collar on him. I heard that some trainers even sharpen the prongs...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My female never needed one, but I will use it if we are going where there is lots of stuff going on. I've never had to correct her. My male needs one, but he is sensitive to it and I just would rather not use it at this point.


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## Randy- (Jun 16, 2013)

Yes I am referring to a prong collar. Sorry. Was told it was called a pinch. Also, I haven't had anyone say anything to me yet. But I generally ignore dumb people. Thanks for the help guys. Don't go getting on that loosers list, now.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David, so what do you do if your dog doesn't "live to please you?" And what if you are in the field, completely off leash/collar, and the dog doesn't give two licks about you or the treat?....let me guess...it's the owners fault? They should be able to stimulate any dog? 

I hate the argument..."well if you have to use Tool A, B, or C, then you aren't a good enough trainer, don't have enough patience, don't *really understand dogs"....jeesh....no dog is alike. My GSD is soft, lives to please me, and will pretty much do anything I ask once he figures it out....my corgi? Loves to please me...when it works out best for him. Two completely different dogs, require different methods, tools, etc....meh...to each their own. If a method is working, the dog and human have a healthy, happy, relationship and are successful....whatever works.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> what do you do if your dog doesn't "live to please you?" And what if you are in the field, completely off leash/collar, and the dog doesn't give two licks about you or the treat?....


The trouble is that many start to teach their dogs too late, you should teach them to heel when they are three months old. If you started training an adult dog, you can always find some fenced area to start with in order to know his behaviour better. Lucy is 2 and 8, I don't use any leash something like a year now. Nowhere. She is an agressive dog towards other dogs and strangers, with hairs on end - she will walk beside me.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

David Taggart said:


> I just believe, that our dog's wish to please us should be the strongest stimulant in training.


Why? I don't really understand this type of thinking, that dogs should want to work only to please us. Why should they?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I think David, you're right in many ways, but I also use a prong on my girl because she is easily overstimulated, very strong, and there are times I need to really wake her up a bit in a really distracting environment (which you can't always control). 

While I work very hard with her, I'm also not a really experienced trainer, so I have my own limitations, which unfortunately, would therefore have an effect on my dog's progress in training. It's an uphill battle for some of us less experienced people.

However, DaniFani, my dog is not allowed off leash until her recall is confirmed (she's VERY good, but I can't say she's 100% yet). So I use a training line with her and when I tell her 'here' I give her a pop on the collar (flat collar). If she's already on her way back, she won't feel it, if she's not, she will.

As for the dog getting confused about when your dog is allowed to run off to play, you simply tell them 'go play' or whatever command you choose. I always release my dog after a command with 'break'. She doesn't always wait for the release, but we are working on it.

I let my dog out off leash to go pee. She knows the routine. She sits in heel position at the door, I open it, she still sits. I tell her go pee, and she runs out, does her business and runs back in and sits in heel position and gets a treat. Then I tell her 'go play' and she romps off to find her toys or whatever. They can easily learn when they are free to play and when they need to focus. 

Focus during distractions...well...we're working on it. lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When I had more than one male GSD, I walked my large working bred dogs on prong collars any time I was out-weighed by dog. I have nothing to prove to David Taggart or anyone else. My dog's training, titles, and other accomplishments being involved in public events already speak for themselves. Walking off leash in high traffic is not only not appropriate here, it is not legal (6' leash law). Nothing is ever 100% guaranteed and while I've never needed to rely on the fact that both or all three dogs were on prongs, it's a safety rule of mine. The prong itself has nothing to do with how they were initially trained or whether they have good leash manners. My dog that was more of a struggle to leash train will pull just as hard into a prong as a flat collar if you let him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> Why? I don't really understand this type of thinking, that dogs should want to work only to please us. Why should they?



I don't understand that thinking either. I originally trained Jax with this philosophy because I didn't know any better. I learned the hard way that it wasn't working. Two years lost...got a new trainer...and the her first description of Jax was "your dog is a Show Me the Money dog". Her desire to please me only goes so far. Her desire for her frisbee is infinite. Combining the two so she looks to me for her frisbee was the key.

And the theory of us having to be dominant over them? That drives me nuts. They know we aren't dogs. I do believe they understand fairness and reward and consistency.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

blackshep said:


> I think David, you're right in many ways


Well I don't. 

I don't and won't use prong collars myself, but if I did, I wouldn't feel much need to defend their use against that particular poster.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Liesje said:


> When I had more than one male GSD, I walked my large working bred dogs on prong collars any time I was out-weighed by dog. I have nothing to prove to David Taggart or anyone else. My dog's training, titles, and other accomplishments being involved in public events already speak for themselves. Walking off leash in high traffic is not only not appropriate here, it is not legal (6' leash law). Nothing is ever 100% guaranteed and while I've never needed to rely on the fact that both or all three dogs were on prongs, it's a safety rule of mine. The prong itself has nothing to do with how they were initially trained or whether they have good leash manners. My dog that was more of a struggle to leash train will pull just as hard into a prong as a flat collar if you let him.


Agreed! I don't know of many areas(public) where the dog is allowed off leash. 

I used to be one of those owners that always wanted my dog off leash(thought it looked pretty cool and the dog could be "free" lol), wasn't great about leash laws, and whenever given the opportunity, would remove the leash....and my recalls were reliable...but all it takes is ONE time. Not to mention, it's not legal anywhere I've been so far. Nowadays, I am adamant about leash laws. I have seen completely "under control," titled, trained, WORKING (as in police dogs) completely blow off a handler because the distraction was a greater value than anything the handler had(they were on long leads, thank goodness...but if they hadn't been on the leads...who knows). I know I know...it's the handlers fault..the dog doesn't WANT to run off...every dogs lives to please his owner...blah blah) IMO Nothing is 100%....and if I weigh the risk vs reward...in this situation, risk outweighs the reward, for me personally, and for most people I know who, *think, their dog has a super reliable recall. 

Sorry, I know this thread isn't about leash vs off leash...I just think it's silly to act like someone isn't a good dog owner, trainer, handler, etc....just because they choose to use a tool...and the most minimal one at that (leash and collar...maybe a prong).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have no reason not to trust my GSD off leash (and there are times I drop the leash, like waiting in line to get ice cream and I need hands to pay) but my dogs are well known in the community so I can't be a hypocrite and pretend the leash laws don't apply to me. Same reason I also license my dogs with the county. A lot of people don't and no one ever checks but I can't do demos on proper dog ownership and at the same time blow off laws just because. I don't get to pick and choose what laws and etiquette apply to me and my dogs because I think I can prove it's not needed.


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## bigd3077 (Aug 19, 2012)

I've used it for a while and my girl never pulls, even when a cat is close by.....


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Merciel said:


> Well I don't.
> 
> I don't and won't use prong collars myself, but if I did, I wouldn't feel much need to defend their use against that particular poster.


Oh! Ha ha!

I do kind of see what he's saying, that a prong isn't meant to replace good training. 

But I use one, my dog is a lot stronger than I am and can be reactive, so I want to make sure I have her under control. I don't allow her off leash. I guess what I'm saying is I don't see any reason that a dog can't wear a prong and still be well trained, but I wouldn't rely on it to do the training for you, so I can understand that point.


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