# Keeping an aggressive dog



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Every time someone comes here with questions about how to manage an aggressive dog who bites, I find myself questioning why they would be risking their very life to keep such an animal.

I'm talking about serious bites, not warning nips.

Why spend so much time and energy and live in fear with a dangerous dog, when there are so many wonderful, sweet, deserving dogs who would adore you being euthanized as we speak? Or when you can get a dog with sound temperament from a good breeder?

Could it be that we project ourselves too much onto these animals? Could it be that we turn this into a personal matter and decide we wouldn't want someone to "throw us away" because of our defects?

We think maybe that if we give so much to such a dog, the dog will suddenly appreciate it and change? 
That doesn't even happen with people, does it? Why would it with dogs?

Yes, we come here shaped by our experiences. 

I was traumatized for many years by my mother's Pekingese, who lived to be 18, and bit me every chance she got. I still to this day resent mom having kept that little monster. She sent me to the ER once, with a serious injury.
That was a Pekingese.
A German Shepherd who did what she used to do could have killed me. Dog bites happen so awfully fast, there is no way,even with the utmost care, that we can stop every one of them. One bite could disfigure or disable someone, even take their life.

Why is it that it is so hard for some to give up an aggressive animal?


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

As a caregiver of one of these animals, I can't shed any light but I can agree whole heartedly with you. 

My mother in law has owned 6 year old doberman since birth. The dog hasn't been socialised, and I'm pretty sure has been beaten and abused at some point as she is one seriously scared dog. I'm guessing most of her aggresion is fear driven. 

She hates most people. Me and my partner get along fine with her, as well as our son, and my partners siblings. She also still gets along with my mother in law. However, she can't be taken to the vets, when people come to visit she has to go outside, and if you walk her and anyone else comes close you have to hold her coller so she doesn't nip or attempt to bite. 

The worst one I've seen was before I knew what she was like, and when people walk past she will sniff in that direction and try to snap at their calf as they pass. 

However, the sentimental value to my mother in law, and by default my partner means that I would be in no end of strife if I put her down. She's a nightmare of a dog, hates Vader (11 weeks GSD) and can't be left with him at all. This is a dog that could seriously injure or mame someone.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

One more thing that I forgot to put in my OP.

I have doubts that so much of the blame lies with socialization or abuse. 
I have seen dogs with zero socialization who had been terribly abused, who still love people and are well behaved once they are adopted and taken care of.

Some dogs are mean because that is the way they were born. I think it's largely genetic.
Experience, especially bad experience, can cause some behavior, but what does everybody think about the possibility that some dogs are just miswired, just as some people are?


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## Curtis (Jun 9, 2013)

I would guess that the owners develop a strong bond before the behavior manifests.

Like a mother who still loves a murderous or paedophile son.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Curtis said:


> I would guess that the owners develop a strong bond before the behavior manifests.
> 
> Like a mother who still loves a murderous or paedophile son.



This is where I become lost.

How can you maintain a strong bond with an animal that bites you?

As for the mother of the murderer or pedophile, I guess we are going to the humanization thing again, aren't we?


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## Augustine (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> This is where I become lost.
> 
> *How can you maintain a strong bond with an animal that bites you?*
> 
> As for the mother of the murderer or pedophile, I guess we are going to the humanization thing again, aren't we?


We often see the people (and animals) we love through rose-colored glasses. I've seen a lot of people with aggressive dogs that actually get along really great with them otherwise; aside from the biting issue, they seem to be just as friendly, affectionate, and sometimes even gentle as any other dog. 

I imagine it would be easier to grow weary of a dog that has a ton of other behavioral problems. But when you have one that has plenty of good points, people start to feel guilty and try to love the dog regardless of their flaws.

That and - like you said - people have a habit of humanizing their animals, even if only subconsciously. I admit, if my pup ever developed a serious biting issue, I'd have a hard time putting her down. Dogs may only live in the moment, but just as they see us as pack, I see them as family. I'd do it if it really were the only option left, but it would undoubtedly be one of the hardest things I'd ever have to do.

It's a flaw in human nature, I guess.


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## Curtis (Jun 9, 2013)

I suppose most of us anthropomorphize don't we?

I've never had an aggressive dog, but my grandfather had a crazy Chihuahua. It bit anyone who came near it EXCEPT for grandpa. So my reply was assuming that the aggressive dog didn't attack the main human.

Not sure why people would keep a dog that tried to attack the main person.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Curtis said:


> Not sure why people would keep a dog that tried to attack the main person.


This was exactly my question. Maybe I should have a mod or admin clarify in the original post.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> This is where I become lost.
> 
> How can you maintain a strong bond with an animal that bites you?
> 
> As for the mother of the murderer or pedophile, I guess we are going to the humanization thing again, aren't we?


My guess is that most dogs who are aggressive are usually not aggressive toward their owners. 

Ex.: when I was a child I had a Rhode Island Red rooster and three hens as pets. The rooster was huge, and as he grew he became extremely aggressive toward everyone in my family, chasing and pecking at them, even striking at them with his feet and talons. With me, he was perfect. I hand fed him and even carried him around in my arms.

Then one day he came at me. Finally I agreed that he had to go. I was told that our milkman took him out to his mother's farm to live his life out. Found out 20 years later that the milkman, of course, ate him in a stew.

Anyway, I think that because a dog is sweet and loving to its owner, they can't bear to consider euth. for him, that they will just manage him. For those who CAN manage a big aggressive dog, okay, but many just can't.

Susan


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I agree with SF. Another issue that bothers me at no end is the rescue mentality, to the point that dogs and cats are more important than people. I often hear :"I rescued him" but actually the dog changed owner. Of all the foster dogs I have had, I rescued one in the true sense of the word as she was dying from mastitis and pyometra in a shelter and was going to be put down the day i picked her up. She is still alive at 14. That's rescue.
Society has many lonely people and rescuing is rescuing themselves from a not-so-great life.
In our area they import aggressive pregnant pits from CA to be rescued. Reading between the lines: "a home without any other dogs or children", "doesn't want to share his food/toys", "strongly bonded to his owner", "shy but warms up if given time". Later many up in shelters as strays and continue their journey form home to home to eventually end up dead somewhere.
Their is a mentality of "the more effort, time, emotion, money you spend on a dog, the better animal lover you are".
Rescue groups are coming out of the wood work lately and many are not educated in dog behavior, nor are dogs temperament tested, going to their new homes, owners bonding with them and voila! 
In all my years as a trainer, about 5 times I have owners advised to put their dog down after evaluating him/her, based on what I saw and the story they gave me. Only one has followed through. The rest fired me as an incompetent trainer (incl one who also fired the vet for referring him to me) and some started spreading rumors about me. I'd rather be honest and lose business than sugar coating this danger, playing the rescue-every-dog-game and then reading in the news that that particular dog seriously injured or killed some one.
It is a losing battle we fight. Bailey's story is so familiar and a great example of this issue.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Personally, i do not think i could bond with a dog that attacked me. As for maintaining a bond, i guess it would depend on the circumstances. We had a dobe growing up, adopted from a shelter. Great dog but he would be fine one minute then the next he would be tearing at your throat in a rage, brain tumor. Loved him, i cried like a baby when he was put down, i was so very torn up inside.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I rescued a litter of feral GSD? pups. Mom was dead or gone, 1 was dead when I found them, 2 died shortly after. I kept the one that lived. My husband walked into the yard one night when Bear was about 9 weeks old and Bear attacked him. I chalked it up to bad lighting, weak I know. A few weeks later my husband tried to take him outside and got bit again. I said he startled him. At 5 months old he attacked two dogs on a walk, at 6 months old he took down the neighbors husky, at 8 months old he tried to get Bud. The whole time he continued to threaten and bite my husband. 
I loved him, he was my cuddly Bear. My husband loved him, wanted desperately to keep him. He went for a friends daughter right in front of me, snapped a chain and mauled a passerby, fortunately it was winter and the man was well padded. He killed a small dog, and I think a cat. 
We fenced, muzzled, chained, contained. He busted through things like they weren't there. At 1.5 years old he weighed 117lbs and was not yet filled out. He stood 30" at the shoulder. 
I had socialized, trained and socialized some more. I made the horrible decision to destroy a young, healthy dog. 
I hate myself for it, I gave up on him. And that's what it boils down to. I should have been able to save him, I failed. So when people tell me I should get rid of Shadow and get a 'better' dog, all I see is Bears sweet face. I failed one dog, I will not fail again.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I rescued a litter of feral GSD? pups. Mom was dead or gone, 1 was dead when I found them, 2 died shortly after. I kept the one that lived. My husband walked into the yard one night when Bear was about 9 weeks old and Bear attacked him. I chalked it up to bad lighting, weak I know. A few weeks later my husband tried to take him outside and got bit again. I said he startled him. At 5 months old he attacked two dogs on a walk, at 6 months old he took down the neighbors husky, at 8 months old he tried to get Bud. The whole time he continued to threaten and bite my husband.
> I loved him, he was my cuddly Bear. My husband loved him, wanted desperately to keep him. He went for a friends daughter right in front of me, snapped a chain and mauled a passerby, fortunately it was winter and the man was well padded. He killed a small dog, and I think a cat.
> We fenced, muzzled, chained, contained. He busted through things like they weren't there. At 1.5 years old he weighed 117lbs and was not yet filled out. He stood 30" at the shoulder.
> I had socialized, trained and socialized some more. I made the horrible decision to destroy a young, healthy dog.
> I hate myself for it, I gave up on him. And that's what it boils down to. I should have been able to save him, I failed. So when people tell me I should get rid of Shadow and get a 'better' dog, all I see is Bears sweet face. I failed one dog, I will not fail again.


How about "you failed every, adult, teen, kid, animal that was mauled"?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> How about "you failed every, adult, teen, kid, animal that was mauled"?


 
Yup. That to.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I rescued a litter of feral GSD? pups. Mom was dead or gone, 1 was dead when I found them, 2 died shortly after. I kept the one that lived. My husband walked into the yard one night when Bear was about 9 weeks old and Bear attacked him. I chalked it up to bad lighting, weak I know. A few weeks later my husband tried to take him outside and got bit again. I said he startled him. At 5 months old he attacked two dogs on a walk, at 6 months old he took down the neighbors husky, at 8 months old he tried to get Bud. The whole time he continued to threaten and bite my husband.
> I loved him, he was my cuddly Bear. My husband loved him, wanted desperately to keep him. He went for a friends daughter right in front of me, snapped a chain and mauled a passerby, fortunately it was winter and the man was well padded. He killed a small dog, and I think a cat.
> We fenced, muzzled, chained, contained. He busted through things like they weren't there. At 1.5 years old he weighed 117lbs and was not yet filled out. He stood 30" at the shoulder.
> I had socialized, trained and socialized some more. I made the horrible decision to destroy a young, healthy dog.
> I hate myself for it, I gave up on him. And that's what it boils down to. I should have been able to save him, I failed. So when people tell me I should get rid of Shadow and get a 'better' dog, all I see is Bears sweet face. I failed one dog, I will not fail again.


Read everything you wrote again.

He was not healthy.

He was mentally ill.

Just because his body was sound does not mean his mind was.

A dog who attacks without a reason is not mentally healthy.

You did not put down a healthy dog.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm with you, Sunflowers. My dogs are part of the family: they live inside with us and go many places with us. Training them, hiking with them, taking them to the lake, and just doing things with them is my hobby. I understand and respect that they are dogs and there is a huge responsibility in keeping them. Training, socialization, meeting exercise requirements, and general management are musts in having a well-behaved pet. My dogs bring me happiness and enjoyment, and they need to be social and stable to fit in with my lifestyle. 

I have multiple dogs from rescue backgrounds of different breeds and a GSD from a reputable breeder. I have been fortunate to never have a dog with fear aggression, and I'm sure it's much easier to sit here and type this than to actually do it, but if I were genuinely worried about my dog attacking someone unprovoked, that dog would not live with me anymore. Some people are able and willing to manage an aggressive dog. I think most of these dogs are only aggressive to those outside their pack; I cannot imagine wanting to keep a dog that had attacked me unprovoked multiple times. 

A dog is who he is genetically. There is a reason why we have so many different breeds with different traits selectively bred into them. You can do all the training and socialization you want with a nervy dog, and you may be able to train and manage the dog, but at the end of the day, you still have a nervy dog. The best dog that I ever had was adopted when she was 4 years old. Wild, no manners, no training, heart worm positive; while no one really knows about her upbringing, one can make an educated guess. In spite of all of this she was the absolute best dog in the world. She was rock solid and loved everyone she met: adults, kids, dogs, cats, livestock even. She loved to work with me and was very quickly trained. That is genetics.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Wolfy dog-to be fair, the first attack on a dog was my first indication that he was dog aggressive. The husky was actually picking on him, in my yard.
He snapped a chain on my husband to get the small dog. I broke my wrist and two fingers trying to stop him from attacking the passerby, who he got to by busting my front door. We found him in the apple tree one day, he jumped fences, or climbed them. We had him tied with marine rope and it didn't even slow him down when he broke it. He bent a metal latch chewing on it.

The question was why keep an aggressive dog? Because I loved him, and I kept hoping I could find a way to train him.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Wolfy dog-to be fair, the first attack on a dog was my first indication that he was dog aggressive. The husky was actually picking on him, in my yard.
> He snapped a chain on my husband to get the small dog. I broke my wrist and two fingers trying to stop him from attacking the passerby, who he got to by busting my front door. We found him in the apple tree one day, he jumped fences, or climbed them. We had him tied with marine rope and it didn't even slow him down when he broke it. He bent a metal latch chewing on it.
> 
> The question was why keep an aggressive dog? Because I loved him, and I kept hoping I could find a way to train him.


As you write all this, are you seeing what went on?
Do you realize there is nothing you could have done to change him?
Do you realize, given all the care and chances you gave this dog, that you deserved a lot better?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I have a fear aggressive dog. He is the sweetest animal with my husband and I but is fearful of strangers. We made the decision to manage him for the rest of his life. It's hard.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I have a fear aggressive dog. He is the sweetest animal with my husband and I but is fearful of strangers.


I was talking about super aggressive, where the dog bites or causes injury to the owner.
I get keeping a fear aggressive dog if he's good to you. 

What I didn't understand was why keep a dog if he attacks owner or family members.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I have a fear aggressive dog. He is the sweetest animal with my husband and I but is fearful of strangers. We made the decision to manage him for the rest of his life. It's hard.


I have had two fear aggressive dogs, both adopted. It is hard. The first (Basu) started out like Cujo with strangers (he was adopted at age 4.5) but I was able to rehab him to the point where I could trust him in most situations. If I couldn't trust him then I removed him from the situation. I managed him very carefully and could predict his every reaction. He was very loving with people that he knew and he lived a good life with me. 

The second (Kai) was hit by a car when he was just a year old. He was less predictable but had come a long way in the 7 months I had him. He was wired too tight -- mom was semi-feral and he had demons. I had to manage him much more tightly than Basu but I think he probably would have come around with more work. There were certain situations where I knew he just wouldn't be safe so I did not put him in those situations. 

Very few dogs are aggressive towards their handlers. Neither of mine were at all aggressive with me or with people they knew well. I cannot say how I would feel if that had been the case. 

I think people need to be able to make their own informed  decisions about the welfare of their animals. I know many would have put Basu down but I was able to rehab him. I was told that wasn't possible and heard all kinds of cruel things from people when I adopted him but those same people were amazed when they saw him a few years later. I think it's easy to say what you would do in the abstract but it's much harder when you are in that situation.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I agree with SF. Another issue that bothers me at no end is the rescue mentality, to the point that dogs and cats are more important than people. I often hear :"I rescued him" but actually the dog changed owner. Of all the foster dogs I have had, I rescued one in the true sense of the word as she was dying from mastitis and pyometra in a shelter and was going to be put down the day i picked her up. She is still alive at 14. That's rescue.
> Society has many lonely people and rescuing is rescuing themselves from a not-so-great life.
> In our area they import aggressive pregnant pits from CA to be rescued. Reading between the lines: "a home without any other dogs or children", "doesn't want to share his food/toys", "strongly bonded to his owner", "shy but warms up if given time". Later many up in shelters as strays and continue their journey form home to home to eventually end up dead somewhere.
> Their is a mentality of "the more effort, time, emotion, money you spend on a dog, the better animal lover you are".
> ...


This times 100000.

There are thousands of dogs that should not be managed / handled / worked with by the average person. There is simply too much risk for everyone - the person working with the dog, the dog, and anyone / thing else around the dog. 

Of the thousands of dogs that can't be managed, there are probably less than a 100 people that can TRULY work with these dogs - rehab them, manage them properly, etc. WITHOUT humanizing them, feeling sorry for them, and dumping all kinds of negative emotions on them. Or on the other end of the spectrum, abusing them and making them worse. 

The other day I heard someone say I have a German Shepherd Rescue Dog ... really? Since when did the word rescue become part of the dog's breed name?

The last decade seems to be on this massive pendulum swing - society went from harsh discipline and serious negative consequences (raising children, training dogs / breaking horses) to everything is rosy, happy, joyful and if we pour enough money, love and care (forget the discipline / consequences - that's negative). 

I have a very good friend in her late 60s, and she's promised me that society will swing back to a happy medium, but I might not be around to see it! Frankly it scares the crap out of me, and I really hope I don't have to be looked after in my old age by some of the horrible younger kids I see nowadays ... the sense of self-entitlement, etc.


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm in the 50 something group, and with age comes the realization that I cant fix the world. Time comes into play here as well, I would not alter my life, not go to places, etc etc to keep an aggressive dog, im talking about dogs that bite their owners or family members, forget it!!!!!!!! My sister-in-law went on vacation for 1 week and I had her little dog (lexie my dog is not very good with little dogs) I had to separate them, walk them separately , feet them apart, and it was exhausting, I lost 5 lbs that week, lol. Life is too short and I myself like a serene life that equals happiness, not kaos, that give me indigestion.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> I have doubts that so much of the blame lies with socialization or abuse.
> I have seen dogs with zero socialization who had been terribly abused, who still love people and are well behaved once they are adopted and taken care of.
> 
> Some dogs are mean because that is the way they were born. I think it's largely genetic.



I don't have much to say about the aggressive dog subject as I can see it from both sides; loving the dog and wanting to help it and letting the dog go.

However yes yes yes to the above statement. Abuse *can* break a dog, but a solid temperament dog seems to rebound from it without issue. 

I wish I could count the times someone has told me their dog was a rescue and when they raise their voice or their hand around the dog it cowers, therefore the dog must have been abused. It's so much more complicated than that. A soft dog can respond very strongly to the simplest things...perhaps as a pup this dog was stepped on by a man in large boots. If the dog doesn't have a solid temperament, that dog may forever be afraid of large boots, and of all things, dogs seem to generalize fear...so in this case perhaps it starts as a fear of large boots and overtime extends to men or strangers. It's crazy how something so small and insurmountable can become a true behavioral issue for a sensitive dog. When a dog with sound genetics placed in the same situation, will be un-phased. That's why dog behavior is so complicated.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am with you and really do not understand it. I understand hoping to fix a dog and feeling powerful enough to do so, so that when we make the decision to put the dog down we feel like we failed the dog. But it is a grandiose way of perceiving ourselves. Sometimes we just aren't that powerful. 

But what about handler-aggression, going up the lead at the handler? I think that sometimes, when we are looking for a breed/dog that is strong, courageous, aggressive, confident, intelligent, independent, and so on and so forth, so that they can do a job that takes a strong, courageous, aggressive, confident, intelligent, independent dog, maybe we get a dog who is not going to sit back and take it when punished unfairly (in his opinion). Maybe such a dog will come up the leash, when being pulled away from what he is engaged in. Do you put a dog down, like that, when what you wanted was a dog that can show those very traits?

I think that many of us do not want to be in that group that after having a lot more experience, understand that the dog we thought was bad, was actually not so much bad, but a reflection of our own inexperience. I killed a dog for biting me. I thought with children living next door, that the dog was too large a liability. I had the vet put the dog down. He was my first GSD. Over the decades since then, I have been bitten by a couple of GSDs, just breaking up fights, but those bites (2 incidents) were serious GSD bites that took medical attention, and took a long time to heal. The nicks that my first boy gave me, while drawing blood on three fingers, actually showed a LOT of restraint / inhibition. In short the dog was trying to communicate with me. I didn't listen to him putting his mouth over my wrist, and then he did a quick snap that left three of my fingers bleeding. If I knew then what I know now, that incident probably would have never happened, and if it did, I probably would not put the dog down. I would maybe change my leadership style with the dog, and do other stuff, but I think the point is, where is the line drawn. We don't none of us want to euthanize a dog if the fault is ours. If the fault is ours, then the dog can probably be worked with.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Why is it that it is so hard for some to give up an aggressive animal?


Guilt. You have to live with it the rest of your life. It's no win. No matter what you do you feel like you failed the dog, you failed yourself.... Its horrible.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I honestly don't know why so many average homes with inexperienced owners keep dogs that bite them. I work in a pet supply store and this time of year many people are coming in for coats and boots, and many of these dogs bite their owners for handling them. It honestly blows my mind. And in my opinion, most of these dogs just have training issues. The owners tip toe around the dog, avoiding situations where the dog will react as opposed to training the dog. 
For example: Marbles the little white maltese thing owned by a young university student. She came in a few years ago for boots as she does a lot of city walking. She doesn't like being handled. She freaked about us putting the boots on. I tried to coach her owner how to overcome this, that this was just a spoiled little dog getting its way and there is no reason why she cannot wear boots if the owner wants her to wear boots. The dog won, she did not get boots and the owner never attempted it again. Well, lo and behold, the dog needs its nails trimmed. I reminded the owner of the boot scenario, told her the dog is going to have a fit for its nails and explained why. We got through the nail trim (with a muzzle) and dog went on its merry way. The dog recently came back in for a nail trim, and although I still muzzled her she was a little angel. In two short visits she realized I did not play her game and gave up. 
I honestly believe most dogs are in this category - with a competent owner there would be no issues. But in homes where everyone asks nothing of the dog there is trouble. And when you get to large, powerful dogs it becomes dangerous. I think people just think it is easier to step around the dog and make excuses than to realize the dog has major issues and do something about it. And when it is severe, and there are not enough experienced people qualified to own a dog like that, the dog just lives its life biting people and ruling the house and the final vet trip is never even thought of.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Mikelia said:


> And in my opinion, most of these dogs just have training issues.


and this attitude expressed above is a huge part of the problem. Not all dogs have training issues. Some dogs have what someone else described on here as demons. That is the best way I know of putting it. Their fears are all in their own mind but they are very real to the dog. Just like with humans with mental health issues no amount of training and love can overcome those demons. Then you have to make the choice and there is no good choice. Do you put the dog down? Do you attempt to manage the dog? What do you do? No matter what you chose you will be judged. Not only by others but by yourself. I don't know anyone who loves animals who can just casually say oh yeah my dog was mentally ill so I put him down. Then there is the deep down fear, what if it is me? What if he can be managed by someone else vrs what happens if I give him up and he can't be helped. What if he attacks someone else? There are no good choices in this situation.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I do not disagree that some dogs have demons, but even many of these dogs, with qualified owners, can be safe at home. Of my five dogs three are rescues. Two were rescued as adults and had bite history. One has serious demons. He tried to bite me once, within the first few weeks I had him. He has never been aggressive to me again. Trust, patience and understanding. He was a dangerous dog in public for some time, he is not anymore so long as he is managed properly.
A friend of mine had a bulldogge who he ended up rehoming because no one in the house could handle him. This dog sent multiple people to the hospital, one needed reconstructive surgery. This was a very dangerous dog. Him and I had a great relationship - he respected me and understood what I expected of him. He trusted me not to mishandle him. He knew I was fair and I never had one iota of an issue with him. I obedience trained him but no one in the house was confident enough to follow through with the training. I was not willing to own the dog and recommended that if they could not work with him that he be euthanized. Instead he lived in a kennel in the backyard for a year until they found a rescue that was willing to take him. Even though this dog had serious demons, he could still respond to basic, fair training. He could still develop trust, and he still had basic dog instincts. 
I am a firm believer that most dogs with issues can be trained and managed to live a relatively normal life with a competent owner. However, there are not enough people with the right skills and mind sets to set these dogs up for the best that they can be. And the average home is not the best place for a dog with 'demons' to shine and overcome its problems. I have worked with so many dogs that do great in training, with me there, but the owners can't make it happen on their own. Wrong people with the wrong dog. 
I stand by my point, most of these dogs have training issues. Or more so the owners have training issues.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Mikelia said:


> I do not disagree that some dogs have demons, but even many of these dogs, with qualified owners, can be safe at home. Of my five dogs three are rescues. Two were rescued as adults and had bite history. One has serious demons. He tried to bite me once, within the first few weeks I had him. He has never been aggressive to me again. Trust, patience and understanding. He was a dangerous dog in public for some time, he is not anymore so long as he is managed properly.
> A friend of mine had a bulldogge who he ended up rehoming because no one in the house could handle him. This dog sent multiple people to the hospital, one needed reconstructive surgery. This was a very dangerous dog. Him and I had a great relationship - he respected me and understood what I expected of him. He trusted me not to mishandle him. He knew I was fair and I never had one iota of an issue with him. I obedience trained him but no one in the house was confident enough to follow through with the training. I was not willing to own the dog and recommended that if they could not work with him that he be euthanized. Instead he lived in a kennel in the backyard for a year until they found a rescue that was willing to take him. Even though this dog had serious demons, he could still respond to basic, fair training. He could still develop trust, and he still had basic dog instincts.
> I am a firm believer that most dogs with issues can be trained and managed to live a relatively normal life with a competent owner. However, there are not enough people with the right skills and mind sets to set these dogs up for the best that they can be. And the average home is not the best place for a dog with 'demons' to shine and overcome its problems. I have worked with so many dogs that do great in training, with me there, but the owners can't make it happen on their own. Wrong people with the wrong dog.
> I stand by my point, most of these dogs have training issues. Or more so the owners have training issues.


I agree 200%. I am not a professional dog trainer, but have had enough experience over my 67 years with not only my own dogs, but also a number of different dogs that did not belong to me to know that a dog can be reached. 

I did train horses professionally, and before I started training for an established show stable, I trained on my own, taking in all the 'spoiled' horses that owners thought they could train (or 'break') themselves. I saw every type of problem that bad and/or abusive handling can put into a horse, would gain the animal's trust and respect, and proceed from there. Unless I worked as well with the owner, the horse would revert to the same bad and often dangerous behavior that he came to me with. I do know of individual horses that were completely unbalanced mentally, for which there wasn't much hope, I personally worked with only one. I know it can happen with dogs as well. These cases, however, be it horse or dog, are rare.

So, as Mikelia stands by her point, I stand by what she posted, as well.

Susan


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

As an afterthought, just to clarify my thoughts on the original post. I do believe that when it comes to dogs with issues in homes that can't handle them we really need to keep in perspective the thought that there are many perfectly sound, normal dogs in desperate need of homes. 
If a dog is a danger during a normal days worth of events, is it really ethical to expend that much energy and resources to keep that dog alive when another perfectly normal dog in desperate need of a home could take that dogs spot? But in the average home with a dog they love, that concept is really hard for people to accept.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Mikelia said:


> I do not disagree that some dogs have demons, but even many of these dogs, with qualified owners, can be safe at home.
> 
> I have worked with so many dogs that do great in training, with me there, but the owners can't make it happen on their own. Wrong people with the wrong dog.
> I stand by my point, most of these dogs have training issues. Or more so the owners have training issues.


I used to agree with you. I too have taken many rescues over the years. I have saved dogs that wouldn't fit in other homes. That being said I have also come across a puppy that demons were so sever he couldn't fit in my home. I just hope that one day you don't come across a dog that you can't fix with love and training. It will break your heart. I know it did mine.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the original question of "why" --- I see two things going on: 1. What am I doing wrong? (guilt) 2. The need to "save" or "fix" in this case a dog. 

Yes, there are many dogs that are healthy mentally and physically that are being killed for lack of resources. If you start going down that path, where do you stop? If your dog (of sound mind) develops a health issue, this logic could say put it down and go get a healthy one. Sure would shorten the discussions on the board, no?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

No. Not the same.

The mentally healthy dog with the physical health issue will not be a maiming or death risk.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

But the bottom line with your argument is - there are better dogs dying...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> To the original question of "why" --- I see two things going on: 1. What am I doing wrong? (guilt) 2. The need to "save" or "fix" in this case a dog.
> 
> Yes, there are many dogs that are healthy mentally and physically that are being killed for lack of resources. If you start going down that path, where do you stop? If your dog (of sound mind) develops a health issue, this logic could say put it down and go get a healthy one. Sure would shorten the discussions on the board, no?


I don't think that is a fair comparison. Physical handicaps are not the same at all as mental ones. You can minimize the risk from a bite by a dog going blind or deaf by doing other things so that you don't startle them. There is just no way to minimize the risk of a dog with demons. The fears are all in their own head.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Honestly it baffles me. 

However, I think the whole "rescue" mentality is a touch dangerous. People here use that they rescued an animal as some kind of badge of honor, something making them superior. I have had people give me nasty comments because my dogs were bought from breeders. 

I have seen plenty of dogs who simply should not have been with the owners they have. They either don't have enough control or seem to live in that rose colored glasses world where their dog is an angel and if someone happens to get bitten, they obviously did something wrong. Could be part of my working in vet clinics as a hazard, but you really see a decent amount of people who freak out and baby animals who aren't necessarily fearful. If an animal is hurt or truly afraid, I cut them slack. If they simply are being a jerk because they can, that's another story.

Personally, I think truly hard to rehab aggression cases shouldn't leave a shelter. I know it isn't a popular idea, but as others have said, there are many dogs who don't have these issues that get overlooked because if you rehab that aggressive dog, you "saved" it. Fear aggression is one thing, however you still need to consider how much rehab and if the person is able to. And honestly, major medical health issues is another reason I feel some animals should be euthanized. Broken leg from an accident? Animals can live with three legs. Dragging its legs for three months because something happened with its back? Probably better it never makes the floor.

I live with a truly aggressive dog. It's not fun. It is constant work and constant worry. Even with a dog who is fearful, that can be hard too. Though I would be more willing to work with a fearful dog than one who is aggressive to the point I'm getting hurt often. Probably makes me horrid or something to say it, but if it came down to it or me, I'm picking me.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Curtis said:


> I would guess that the owners develop a strong bond before the behavior manifests.
> 
> Like a mother who still loves a murderous or paedophile son.


I agree with this, and this is why: you're usually drawn into the situation gradually, so don't really get how bad it is, then when you do get it, you rationalize for a long time. "Well, that person scared him" or " she was freaked out about the fireworks". So, you think "I'll just try this, or that.." I think once you've had a lot of experience with all kinds of dogs, it's easier to see clearly. Also, when it's not your dog, it's easier to see clearly. For ex., the mom of the person who killed all those kids at Sandy Hook apparently stopped all intervention from mental health and allowed him to stop his meds. She kept giving him another chance, with tragic consequences.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Actually this forum is a relief from the typical "rescue type" for me Collie, i like the fact that no one gives me crap for my purchased bc


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Collie, I don't expect a badge of honor from anyone because I got the dog from a shelter. I hope that I never gave that impression. The badge of honor is how much progress he and I have made in the time we have had.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Oh no! Not anyone on this forum! Lol. Sorry I should have been more clear about that. 

It is where I live and other forums online. It seems like people just have this need to say that they rescued their pet, yet generally speaking these are the ones who haven't worked with the dog to help it overcome any potential fears that it may have.  The kind of rescuers who freak out if Fluffy yips because you touched their paw because they were so terribly abused by some former person that owned the dog before they ended up in the shelter system.

People always figured my golden was a rescue when he was younger because he was nervous about strangers. They seemed baffled that he could be wary because of a mistake that I had made in training/socializing him with the world outside of my work (which is two vet clinics that are full of people he adores).


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I don't understand how a thread about aggression turned into breeder vs. rescue. I've rescued dogs and I've bought dogs. If the mental problems are there I don't think it matters where the dog came from. The bigger question is can it/should it be fixed managed and at what point do we say enough?

We have taken in dogs that have failed elsewhere and they have successfully fit in with us. My husband successfully argued for Dude saying that maybe he could fit elsewhere that maybe he just wasn't a good fit for us. That is why he is back at the rescue today. I worry that I should have put him to sleep because the demons in his head are so bad that no where will be a good fit but then again who am I to play god? I am willing to put down a dog that is obviously suffering physically. But how do we know when they are mentally suffering? I sure as heck don't!!


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

rescue or purchased...the ONLY important thing is that a dog has a good, safe home. about the aggression thing...my old german grandfather (importer and breeder), always used to say, "costs the same to feed a bad one as it does a good one", cut absolutely no slack for anything that didn't conform to the standard, once they were old enough to tell, cut absolutely no slack for temperament issues. none, zippo. my parents (breeders)...pretty much the same, my dad taught me that an aggressive shepherd is like a loaded gun, and that you must take that aggression very seriously and never allow anyone to be harmed, and if that means humane euth, that's what it means. I have a bit more tolerance, and am a bit more willing to take circumstances into consideration, but if a dog ever put his/her teeth on me...gone. G.O.N.E. No tolerance for owner aggression in any way, shape or form.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

We all have personal guidelines we live within, and I make no judgments on decisions others make but gosh, I must respectfully disagree about allowing a dog with "demons in his head so bad that nowhere will be a good fit" and the "playing god" theory. a dog like that is *likely* doomed to either live out its' life in kennel isolation or meet up with an ending that I would not want to think about. I could not live with myself if I passed on a dog like that to someone else, either for what the dog might do to someone, or what someone might do to the dog, or use that dog for.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

katieliz said:


> rescue or purchased...the ONLY important thing is that a dog has a good, safe home. about the aggression thing...my old german grandfather (importer and breeder), always used to say, "costs the same to feed a bad one as it does a good one", cut absolutely no slack for anything that didn't conform to the standard, once they were old enough to tell, cut absolutely no slack for temperament issues. none, zippo. my parents (breeders)...pretty much the same, my dad taught me that an aggressive shepherd is like a loaded gun, and that you must take that aggression very seriously and never allow anyone to be harmed, and if that means humane euth, that's what it means. I have a bit more tolerance, and am a bit more willing to take circumstances into consideration, but if a dog ever put his/her teeth on me...gone. G.O.N.E. No tolerance for owner aggression in any way, shape or form.


Dude never put teeth on us. Hackles up barking and growling but not teeth.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

We had a shepherd mix back in the early 90's. We got him at 8 weeks; never abused and well socialized. Had to small children at the time. He was raised with kids around. Took him to the most reputable trainer in our area at the time (trainer is still well respected after all these years). We had him neutered on the trainer and the vets advise before 6 months as he was already becoming very aggressive. 
His name was Max. He quickly became known as "max the h--l dog". Max had demons, lots of demons. He bit me, he bit my husband. He went up the leash on the trainer several times. The trainer told us Max was a "serious bite waiting to happen". I didn't want to believe he was hopeless, but I knew he was just "wired wrong". We never knew what was going set him off. 
The day he tore off the sleeve of my 4 year olds sweat shirt while she was wearing it was the day I new he had to be euthanized. He tried to bite her for no reason and she was quick enough to pull her arm back into the body of the top. He was isolated the rest of that day. The next morning I took Max for his final ride. He was just a year old. 
I felt bad for a few days. Mostly for my kids. As mean as Max was, the kids loved him. 
To be honest, the guilt I had was because I lied to my kids. I told them max went to the shelter to be placed in a home with no kids (they have long since learned the truth). I just couldn't tell them I had their doggie killed.

I don't think it was inexperience in being able to handle him or train him properly. He was just born aggressive. We tried everything within our power. Nothing helped. He wasn't normal mentally.

Maybe I'm a monster to some because I didn't then nor do I now feel guilty for having him PTS. I had to protect my kids, the neighborhood kids, my friends, strangers, my husband and myself from what I knew that dog would one day do if I hadn't.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

katieliz said:


> We all have personal guidelines we live within, and I make no judgments on decisions others make but gosh, I must respectfully disagree about allowing a dog with "demons in his head so bad that nowhere will be a good fit" and the "playing god" theory. a dog like that is *likely* doomed to either live out its' life in kennel isolation or meet up with an ending that I would not want to think about. I could not live with myself if I passed on a dog like that to someone else, either for what the dog might do to someone, or what someone might do to the dog, or use that dog for.


The rescue is one I volunteer at. It is a sanctuary of sorts in that they do keep some dogs that can not be placed. There is a experienced trainer on site who lives there and works with the dogs. It is also where he was born. He is happy there and feels safe in a way he never did at my house. If we didn't have that option available, I would have put him down. I know the background checks that they do and I know the care they take of the animals to make sure they don't get kennel isolation.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

shepherdmom, I took your "nowhere would be a good fit" literally. it sounds like, for him, you did find a good fit, and that it's very cool that you can still see him and know that he's okay. that's a pretty unique and workable situation, which I wasn't clear on at first, and I'm readin' fast tonight, just dropped in for a few quick reads to clear out the cobwebs from a busy, rainy, muddy day, lol. take care all.

springbrz, I'm bettin nobody here is gonna think you're anywhere near a monster. actually, after re-reading your post, I (and I think most others here), think you totally did the right, ethical, humane thing. you are absolutely right. he was wired wrong. it happens...but I'm sorry you had the experience because no matter what, it's a very hard and painful decision to make.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

In our litigious society, rehoming an aggressive dog is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Taking him to a sanctuary run by pros who have full knowledge that the dog is basically nuts is one thing. But, to place a dog like that in another pet home is unconscionable.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I imagine it's really hard for some people to put down an animal that they love, regardless of it biting someone. 

If Sinister ever attacked someone I would be sick to my stomach. He is my world, I love him more than anything, he's my best friend and I rely on him a lot. 

I don't think I could bring myself to put him to sleep. I think I would just do everything I could to keep him away from people for the rest of his life, even if it meant that no one could ever come over to my house again. I would live in solitude for him.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Curtis said:


> Not sure why people would keep a dog that tried to attack the main person.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I thought we were talking about a dog attacking someone else, not the owner.

If my own dog attacked me I would take him to the Vet asap and rule out anything medical. If there was nothing medical and I feared my dog, I would have to put him to sleep.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've noticed that the vast majority of aggression cases I see, especially the handler aggression cases that I've seen were behaviors that were created operantly unintentionally.

Case in point. Person goes to correct a dog lets say for example give the dog a poke in the ribs with their foot or hand. The dog as just part of a quick reaction sort of spins around to meet the foot or hand with the mouth but doesn't bite or even plan to but as a quick reaction the person moves their foot or hand away or even follows through with the poke but quickly withdraws and the dogs mouth just happens to be there. The dog sees a micro picture of being able to turn off pressure with their mouth even if that's not what really happened in our minds because we were going to leave after that anyway. The dog starts doing it as a behavior because it seems to work and then maybe one day nips or growls or whatever and maybe the person decides not to follow through with the correction at all. What does the dog learn? I can intimidate my way out of pressure with my mouth. The behavior gets stronger and stronger because it is essentially negative reinforced to do so. The annoying thing (being corrected) stops because I do an aggressive behavior.

It is a major reason possie trainers claim aversive training leads to aggression. Done incorrectly they are absolutely right. If your dog learns to escape consequences via aggressive behaviors because you allow it to happen you are training the dog to do so. I see it a lot. 

Probably the number one reason a dog learns to go after it's owner occurs because of resource guarding behaviors or the owner hasn't established trust with a dog and backs it into a corner or crate and the dog bites defensively out of fear and then starts seeing pictures where it can escape situations with aggression. 

The vast vast majority of dogs don't have their wires crossed, they were unknowingly trained by their owners to display those aggressive behaviors. Is there genetic predisposition to certain traits that increase the likelihood of those behaviors happening? Absolutely no question about it, but in 99% of cases in experienced hands those behaviors never would have manifested or became serious issues in the first place.

Once they are there as an issue it becomes a harder thing to fix 100%. In some cases you might not be able to fix it at all.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a Golden Retriever (registered dog, from a breeder) who is wired wrong. He'll bite. He's come up the leash with me. He's muzzled when we go to the vet. He was altered at 6 years old because we weren't sure he'd survive being put under. I have the ability to manage him. I keep him away from people. I make sure when I'm with him that he is totally 'with' me. He's my responsibility. My commitment. As long as I can manage his environment, he'll live out his life with me. He's already 11. 

My shepherd has decided he doesn't like any of my other dogs (besides Maggie). I'm living the life of crating and rotating him now. Life is just getting more interesting. But, we'll work through it. I'll figure it out. While I do, I'll keep him and my other dogs safe. I made them that commitment. 

Frankly, I've see too many times on this forum where people find out their dogs aren't the rosey, sunshine, dogs they wanted. They have problems that require more management than the owner is willing to give. They have them euthanized. Then they cry on here or FB looking for sympathy or justification for what they've done. A month later, they have a new puppy hoping this time they have the rosey, sunshine dog they've always wanted. 

There are times where a dog can't be managed. I'd much rather see those dogs euthanized than dumped to become someone else's problem.


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## Curtis (Jun 9, 2013)

Lilie, it sounds like you have a lot going on there. That would be a very stressful situation for me. Glad they have you.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Curtis said:


> I would guess that the owners develop a strong bond before the behavior manifests.
> 
> Like a mother who still loves a murderous or paedophile son.


I don't see many parents visiting their pedophile children in jail but that is what I experience at my work.

This entire subject is so very simple to me. I won't ever own a dog that I cannot trust to not hurt people....EVER so I certainly would not have a dog in my home that would intentionally hurt me or my family. I don't understand it, never will. There are so many beautifully, loving dogs out there that are killed at shelters daily, to keep one that is wired wrong and unsafe makes no sense to me.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Saphire said:


> I don't see many parents visiting their pedophile children in jail but that is what I experience at my work.
> 
> This entire subject is so very simple to me. I won't ever own a dog that I cannot trust to not hurt people....EVER so I certainly would not have a dog in my home that would intentionally hurt me or my family. I don't understand it, never will. There are so many beautifully, loving dogs out there that are killed at shelters daily, to keep one that is wired wrong and unsafe makes no sense to me.


Easy to say. Harder to do. 80% of the time Dude was sweet, gentle loving and part of the family... Then his demons would take over and he would be absolutely nuts. One second he was curled up sleeping next to my husband, the next he was barking and backing away like he didn't know him. He was better with me but if I came in the wrong door, oh my, complete meltdown. He was just so afraid of life. Peering around doors and growling before entering a room. Any change would send him into a tail spin. Moving a piece of furniture had him hiding under the bed for a day. 

He was never full out aggressive in coming up a leash at us, no one got bit.... but it was scary and it was clear he needed more help than we a pet home could give him. We worked with 2 different trainers and the vet in trying to help him. When it became clear that his fear of things was growing not getting better we had to make a choice. Do we put him down or do we send him to a place where they could maybe help him? Was it the right thing to do? I don't know. We tried. All I know is the guilt and sorrow I feel will be with me for a long long time.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> Easy to say. Harder to do. 80% of the time Dude was sweet, gentle loving and part of the family... Then his demons would take over and he would be absolutely nuts. One second he was curled up sleeping next to my husband, the next he was barking and backing away like he didn't know him. He was better with me but if I came in the wrong door, oh my, complete meltdown. He was just so afraid of life. Peering around doors and growling before entering a room. Any change would send him into a tail spin. Moving a piece of furniture had him hiding under the bed for a day.
> 
> He was never full out aggressive in coming up a leash at us, no one got bit.... but it was scary and it was clear he needed more help than we a pet home could give him. We worked with 2 different trainers and the vet in trying to help him. When it became clear that his fear of things was growing not getting better we had to make a choice. Do we put him down or do we send him to a place where they could maybe help him? Was it the right thing to do? I don't know. We tried. All I know is the guilt and sorrow I feel will be with me for a long long time.


There is nothing "easy" about making the decision to put an animal you love to sleep. It's not "easy" to pts your 15 yr old dog who is old and suffering....it's about what is right.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Saphire said:


> There is nothing "easy" about making the decision to put an animal you love to sleep. It's not "easy" to pts your 15 yr old dog who is old and suffering....it's about what is right.


Wait, what?! I'm not following your leap. How does one compare PTS a mentally challenged 1 year old to a old a suffering 15 year old? The one year old is in a place with professionals who can potentially help him... There is no help for the 15 year old.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> Wait, what?! I'm not following your leap. How does one compare PTS a mentally challenged 1 year old to a old a suffering 15 year old? The one year old is in a place with professionals who can potentially help him... There is no help for the 15 year old.


Actually, a mentally challenged 1 year old who is seriously suffering from genetically weak nerves, where he is constantly in a state of fear/reaction/etc., isn't any different than putting to sleep a 15 year old who is physically suffering. The question is the quality of life to the dog, and what the prognosis is for improving that quality of life. It is never easy to put down a youngster, because they may look healthy and have a lot of life left in them, but they also have years and years of suffering before them as well. It isn't easy to put down an elderly dog that you have loved for 15 years either. Yes, you know it has to come about, but it somehow never makes it easy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> Actually, a mentally challenged 1 year old who is seriously suffering from genetically weak nerves, where he is constantly in a state of fear/reaction/etc., isn't any different than putting to sleep a 15 year old who is physically suffering. The question is the quality of life to the dog, and what the prognosis is for improving that quality of life. It is never easy to put down a youngster, because they may look healthy and have a lot of life left in them, but they also have years and years of suffering before them as well. It isn't easy to put down an elderly dog that you have loved for 15 years either. Yes, you know it has to come about, but it somehow never makes it easy.


I disagree. I am willing to take the chance that the 1 year old can be helped.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> I disagree. I am willing to take the chance that the 1 year old can be helped.


Maybe yours could be. And you have to make that decision, knowing the dog. But I read your previous posts in this thread and also thought you had the dog euthanized. It just read kind of that way, maybe because that is what the topic is about. If someone had a dog seriously challenged like that, I would understand euthanasia as much as for a 15 year old dog with mobility or incontinence issues.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> Wait, what?! I'm not following your leap. How does one compare PTS a mentally challenged 1 year old to a old a suffering 15 year old? The one year old is in a place with professionals who can potentially help him... There is no help for the 15 year old.


Was a poor comparison...what I was attempting to say is that if it's not easy to make that decision for a 15 yr old sick dog...which it isn't for many, it's especially more difficult for a young dog you "think" you can fix.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> Maybe yours could be. And you have to make that decision, knowing the dog. But I read your previous posts in this thread and also thought you had the dog euthanized. It just read kind of that way, maybe because that is what the topic is about. If someone had a dog seriously challenged like that, I would understand euthanasia as much as for a 15 year old dog with mobility or incontinence issues.


I think you missed this one.  



> The rescue is one I volunteer at. It is a sanctuary of sorts in that they do keep some dogs that can not be placed. There is a experienced trainer on site who lives there and works with the dogs. It is also where he was born. He is happy there and feels safe in a way he never did at my house. If we didn't have that option available, I would have put him down. I know the background checks that they do and I know the care they take of the animals to make sure they don't get kennel isolation.


I should probably stay out of this thread. It is still really raw and I'm still really emotional about it. :teary: I don't know if he can be fixed or managed but I'm willing to let the experienced trainers give it a shot. I'm very lucky to have had this option. I know most people would not have had a rescue willing to step up.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Saphire said:


> Was a poor comparison...what I was attempting to say is that if it's not easy to make that decision for a 15 yr old sick dog...which it isn't for many, it's especially more difficult for a young dog you "think" you can fix.


Oh ok. Thanks for explaining.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

After reading many posts, I'm beginning to believe that it's a case of people not wanting to let go of what they hope dog will be, holding on to what they want the dog to be, and refusing to look at what the dog actually is.

They somehow believe they can change who the dog is, and feel horrible about themselves for not being able to effect that change. They also feel like failures when, despite so much effort, the dog remains who he is.

Could also be that some place an equivalent value on dogs and humans?
As a kid, I sometimes felt that my mom placed a higher value on that biting dog than she did on me. Still puzzles me to this day, to say the least.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Could also be that some place an equivalent value on dogs and humans?
> As a kid, I sometimes felt that my mom placed a higher value on that biting dog than she did on me. Still puzzles me to this day, to say the least.


Oh yes, dogs are higher value than most humans IMO.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Oh yes, dogs are higher value than most humans IMO.


Well, there you go. This explains a lot of it, in my opinion.
I have heard my mother say something like that, in a different wording, but I do believe she thinks the same way. 
I just can't understand that.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Well, there you go. This explains a lot of it, in my opinion.


I once worked with a girl who told a customer she would drown a thousand babies to save a dog-
she was fired- Thankfully


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I once worked with a girl who told a customer she would drown a thousand babies to save a dog-
> she was fired- Thankfully


OK, now that's disturbing. 

Wow.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> Oh yes, dogs are higher value than most humans IMO.


Huh?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> After reading many posts, I'm beginning to believe that it's a case of people not wanting to let go of what they hope dog will be, holding on to what they want the dog to be, and refusing to look at what the dog actually is.
> 
> They somehow believe they can change who the dog is, and feel horrible about themselves for not being able to effect that change. They also feel like failures when, despite so much effort, the dog remains who he is.
> 
> ...


I think alot of people are like that, its sort of human nature to want to help and love and nurture even if its apparent, its a lost cause- 
Its about emotions, the lack of ability to step back and say, hey i cannot do this anymore and thats okay, the guilt of failing, the influence of people around the situation. 

My moms has a friend who went thru a terrible abusive relationship, the day she left her husband was the day he hit her collie, she had suffered years of physical abuse and emtional abuse, she called her in tears explaining she had failed to protect her dog and that is when she knew it was time to leave, The dog had no issues but thats how much value she placed on her dog, she could take the abuse, put herself thru it, but she placed so much love and value in that dog it was like Daz was more important then her.

Human attachment is a powerful thing, the lines often get blurred, you love something so much and most importantly they need you and that is another powerful thing, too feel needed. 

I agree that sometimes you gotta let go though.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Saphire said:


> Huh?


I am not a people person. I like kids and animals. I don't like most people.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Maybe it's about trust or undeserved loyalty.

Humans let us down, ignore us, stop loving us, etc. You're not going to go home someday and find out your dog unfriended you or betrayed you. Dogs are "safer" relationships.

I think trying to save dangerous dogs can be an unresolved abandonment issue or misplaced loyalty. I have been abandoned and I will not abandon my dog like I was abandoned. Or, if I save my dog, maybe my dog will save me by never abandoning or hurting me. Or, I could not stop "X" from hurting me, but this time with a dog I can replay it and stop the abuse.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> I am not a people person. I like kids and animals. I don't like most people.


I really don't like people in general either. I would rather stick something in my eye than go to a party, wedding, funeral, shopping mall. I don't want to meet the mayor, congressmen, president (even if it was a president from the party that I align myself with). I don't even want to meet professional baseball or football players, and I am a huge fan. 

That said, hands down, people are more important than critters. A man, woman, child has parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, workmates, friends, all of whom have feelings for that person, perhaps they have claims on the person. A dog gets smooshed in the road, and it's sad, and we can feel bad about it, but that dog's adult progeny are not going to be broken up about it, the dog's parents, if still alive, will know nothing of it, it will not impact the struggle to survive for those counting on that critter.

We can love dogs, and feel more familiar with them than with people. We can appreciate their honest-dog-characteristics. But when we see them as more important or even equally important as human beings, then I think we err. If we veer off the road or fail to veer off the road to avoid a dog and kill a person instead, and think that is ok because we feel that a critter's life is equal to a human's, than we are pretty much miss-wired.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> I really don't like people in general either. I would rather stick something in my eye than go to a party, wedding, funeral, shopping mall. I don't want to meet the mayor, congressmen, president (even if it was a president from the party that I align myself with). I don't even want to meet professional baseball or football players, and I am a huge fan.
> 
> That said, hands down, people are more important than critters. A man, woman, child has parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, workmates, friends, all of whom have feelings for that person, perhaps they have claims on the person. A dog gets smooshed in the road, and it's sad, and we can feel bad about it, but that dog's adult progeny are not going to be broken up about it, the dog's parents, if still alive, will know nothing of it, it will not impact the struggle to survive for those counting on that critter.
> 
> We can love dogs, and feel more familiar with them than with people. We can appreciate their honest-dog-characteristics. But when we see them as more important or even equally important as human beings, then I think we err. If we veer off the road or fail to veer off the road to avoid a dog and kill a person instead, and think that is ok because we feel that a critter's life is equal to a human's, than we are pretty much miss-wired.


If an adult is in the street they should know better. If an animal is in the street I do veer off the road. Guess I'm miss-wired. edited...Ok that sounds cold. I would veer off for a human too. I'm just more likely to be ticked off at the human.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> If an adult is in the street they should know better. If an animal is in the street I do veer off the road. Guess I'm miss-wired.


I'm actually horrified and believe me when I say that I see the worst of humanity daily at work....it's hard to shock or horrify me.

Ok I see your edit now too...phew


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

shepherdmom said:


> If an adult is in the street they should know better. If an animal is in the street I do veer off the road. Guess I'm miss-wired.



So you would not veer to miss a human? cCause they should know better? Please tell me I am misunderstanding you.

ETA: never mind. You edited your post to clarify.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I have heard people I know say they would rescue their dog over a drowning person. When I stop and think about those people, they are people who incite conflict, aren't well-liked, don't have many mature adult relationships that are stable and healthy, and seem to project their own anxieties and failings onto others. 

I hope if one of my kids is ever in need of help no one like that is ever their only chance.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

RocketDog said:


> I have heard people I know say they would rescue their dog over a drowning person. When I stop and think about those people, they are people who incite conflict, aren't well-liked, don't have many mature adult relationships that are stable and healthy, and seem to project their own anxieties and failings onto others.
> 
> I hope if one of my kids is ever in need of help no one like that is ever their only chance.


Removed.
.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Moriah said:


> Maybe it's about trust or undeserved loyalty.
> 
> Humans let us down, ignore us, stop loving us, etc. You're not going to go home someday and find out your dog unfriended you or betrayed you. Dogs are "safer" relationships.
> 
> I think trying to save dangerous dogs can be an unresolved abandonment issue or misplaced loyalty. I have been abandoned and I will not abandon my dog like I was abandoned. Or, if I save my dog, maybe my dog will save me by never abandoning or hurting me. Or, I could not stop "X" from hurting me, but this time with a dog I can replay it and stop the abuse.


If you have chicken, Babs will abandon me. Today she was making up to my contractor, the hussy. 9 years, I have treated her like the Queen of Sheba and she'd go off with the first person to offer her a nasty wheat-filled dog biscuit. 

Dogs are safe in some ways. We can love them without all the baggage one has when they get into a relationship with a human. Of course we like a critter who is delighted to see us without any requirements, no expectations for our behavior. A little food, a little water, and a dog is happy with us. 

Even with the most benign of human relationships, friendships, work-mates, family, it is a lot more complex. Do we tell the neighbor we expect him to fix our yard where he deliberately drove over it when he was drunk and stupid the night before? Do we ask the guy to clean the coffee pot and get it ready for the event tomorrow or just do it ourself? Do we call Dad and let him know we won't be there? Shouldn't we call and apologize for standing someone up last night. Really, who wouldn't prefer the company of dogs???


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Anyone remember that rescue women who veered to not hit ducks?
She killed a father and daughter over ducks...That's insane


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I remember that, and she didn't "kill them" .. she was stopped on the road and the father and daughter were on a motorcycle and he ran into her stopped car. 

Yes, it was her fault ... and completely tragic for the father and daughter, but the way you wrote made it sound as she if went after them ....


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> How can you maintain a strong bond with an animal that bites you?


Leo has been increasingly mouthy, outright biting and lunging and I still love him. I am slowly starting to resent the continual painful biting that he exhibits only towards me to the point that I have altered his walking and training...he has gotten scary in his "attacks". He is socialized, he is exercised and played with 1.5-2.5 hours daily by me as well as fed by hand by me. I sometimes think that the bond is 1-way, although I do think he is loyal to me (even though he bites---that sounds so footballer wives, right?). I always thought a dog/puppy that you bring into your home should bring joy and happiness--- not so much.

We have a session tomorrow with trainer---I am laying it all on the line for her to evaluate our routine, interaction and really help us determine if Leo is destined to stay and how---because his biting and attacks are starting to make me resent anytime that I spend with him. It depresses a person to devote so much time and energy to a dog that acts like he could give a


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Mama of Leo, hang in there. We went through a behaviorist and finally settled on a good trainer to help with the same issue. It has helped us to keep our dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MamaofLEO, be careful about labeling your puppy. It could be that pup is not being aggressive toward you at all, and you just need to tweak your handling, along with some maturing on his part to net you an awesome pet.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Mama of Leo, hang in there. We went through a behaviorist and finally settled on a good trainer to help with the same issue. It has helped us to keep our dog.


Thank you, Glowingtoadfly! Sometimes you just need to hear that...he is a good pup all-in-all and really does read my emotions (which are on my sleeve with this little pup, that is for sure!)


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

selzer said:


> MamaofLEO, be careful about labeling your puppy. It could be that pup is not being aggressive toward you at all, and you just need to tweak your handling, along with some maturing on his part to net you an awesome pet.


Selzer---and vice versa (me maturing to be an awesome, and _*patient*_, pet-owner). I truly take his biting personally ( I am a pretty assertive person in every other aspect of my life, but this fella has me in tears every other day) and everyone (multiple trainers) say/s I need more patience with him---which I am working on for sure! The board helps with my venting


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MamaofLEO said:


> Selzer---and vice versa (me maturing to be an awesome, and _*patient*_, pet-owner). I truly take his biting personally ( I am a pretty assertive person in every other aspect of my life, but this fella has me in tears every other day) and everyone (multiple trainers) say/s I need more patience with him---which I am working on for sure! The board helps with my venting


This is not what this thread is about.

A gatoring little one and an adult dog literally biting its owner with kill shake are not in the same category.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> This is not what this thread is about.
> 
> A gatoring little one and an adult dog literally biting its owner with kill shake are not in the same category.


Pardon? I searched "agressive dog", this thread came up, I replied....boards ebb and flow...I have a dog that I love dearly that bites, holding on so much and lunging for my arms and face that I asked for advice.

Thanks for the advice, though.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MamaofLEO said:


> Pardon? I searched "agressive dog", this thread came up, I replied....boards ebb and flow...I have a dog that I love dearly that bites, holding on so much and lunging for my arms and face that I asked for advice.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, though.


You have a German Shepherd puppy.

They use their mouth like that when they are young. Puppy mouthing is not aggression.

Please do some research on GSD puppies --- puppy biting is not equivalent to adults attacking their owners. They want to _play_. 


I guess I'm not good at explaining :shrug:


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Puppies mouth-which is different than being aggressive-with maturity and training they grow out of it. I have witnessed a number of aggressive incidents and I agree with the OP. Once a dog has bitten-its probably going to happen again. I would not want to be responsible for my dog biting someone-and I would not want to live in fear of my dog-there would not beany pleasure in living with a dog like that-for me


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

There is a really big difference from a butt head mouthing puppy and one with wires crossed. If you don't know which you have, you need to get a GSD experienced trainer to help you. 

A normal puppy will bite when he is overtired, when he is playful and when his mouth is hurting. He/she is going to try to get his way using his teeth to get your attention. Patience, consistency and training and you will have a great dog. 

Dogs with wires crossed are very different. They have their own inner demons even with patience, consistency and training they are unpredictable because when that inner demon takes over they can't think. The fear or whatever it is is stronger than the training. They won't even hear the command they are so focused on their inner demons. If I hadn't experienced it myself I would never have believed it.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

MamaofLEO said:


> Pardon? I searched "agressive dog", this thread came up, I replied....boards ebb and flow...I have a dog that I love dearly that bites, holding on so much and lunging for my arms and face that I asked for advice.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, though.


Sunflowers is correct, a mouthy puppy is a very different dog and situation from which the OP of this thread is dealing with.

Please don't confuse your mouthy normal GSD puppy with the aggression that has been displayed by the adult GSD in this thread. Please read the threads in the puppy section to learn how to teach and redirect your youngster.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

I stand corrected  

We had another 1 on 1 with our trainer and I brought this topic up and _my_ trainer (because she is really training me to communicate better with Leo) basically said I need to get a hold of myself and remember he is a "mouthy, butt-headish, gatoring" little pup. It was a humbling and good experience today.

Again, and abashedly so, I stand corrected. 

In all honesty, thank you all for showing me the error of my ways in how I was looking at my pup (mouthing is not aggressive, but puppy ways of the world)---:shrug: I actually refer to a lot of intel that I get from the boards at our training sessions and are very helpful.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

holland said:


> Puppies mouth-which is different than being aggressive-with maturity and training they grow out of it. I have witnessed a number of aggressive incidents and I agree with the OP. Once a dog has bitten-its probably going to happen again. I would not want to be responsible for my dog biting someone-and I would not want to live in fear of my dog-there would not beany pleasure in living with a dog like that-for me


Not true at all. My dog Basu bit once. It was a huge surprise and wake-up call for me. He never bit again. Many dogs bite once and their owners get help or embark on a serious rehab program and those dogs do not bite again.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MamaofLEO said:


> I stand corrected
> 
> We had another 1 on 1 with our trainer and I brought this topic up and _my_ trainer (because she is really training me to communicate better with Leo) basically said I need to get a hold of myself and remember he is a "mouthy, butt-headish, gatoring" little pup. It was a humbling and good experience today.
> 
> ...


Refer to your other thread Mama. He's 6mos old. Don't be anything less then absolutely clear at this point. No biting, period. No mouthy, or gatoring. Don't accept that stuff. He KNOWS he's BITING you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MamaofLEO said:


> I stand corrected
> 
> We had another 1 on 1 with our trainer and I brought this topic up and _my_ trainer (because she is really training me to communicate better with Leo) basically said I need to get a hold of myself and remember he is a "mouthy, butt-headish, gatoring" little pup. It was a humbling and good experience today.
> 
> ...


The good news is that your pup is, most likely going to get a whole lot better. As he matures, and as you are firm and consistent about his behavior, he is going to get a lot better. 

Seriously aggressive dogs, adults that bite their owners, causing serious damage -- twice I have been to the ER with wounds that took a year to heal and left good scaring. GSDs when they are serious do damage -- not "drew blood." We are talking stitches (plural). In both cases, the dogs were not trying to bite me, it was during fights when I stupidly put body parts where they did not belong. I have learned. Until the next time.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> There is a really big difference from a butt head mouthing puppy and one with wires crossed. If you don't know which you have, you need to get a GSD experienced trainer to help you.
> 
> A normal puppy will bite when he is overtired, when he is playful and when his mouth is hurting. He/she is going to try to get his way using his teeth to get your attention. Patience, consistency and training and you will have a great dog.
> 
> Dogs with wires crossed are very different. They have their own inner demons even with patience, consistency and training they are unpredictable because when that inner demon takes over they can't think. The fear or whatever it is is stronger than the training. They won't even hear the command they are so focused on their inner demons. If I hadn't experienced it myself I would never have believed it.


This is so true.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> Not true at all. My dog Basu bit once. It was a huge surprise and wake-up call for me. He never bit again. Many dogs bite once and their owners get help or embark on a serious rehab program and those dogs do not bite again.


You are entitled to your opinion -I'm entitled to mine - I have had 4 dogs none of them bit and I would prefer to rescue a dog that didn't


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> Many dogs bite once and their owners get help or embark on a serious rehab program and those dogs do not bite again.


That sounds more like a blanket statement. On what research do you base this on?


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