# Theoretical parallel discussion on dog biting from another thread



## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I am not an expert in dog behaviour, but I will post to offer a 'general public/dog appreciator' opinion. To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down. 

If you are willing to do the work to train her, she may be able to be rehabilitated. (We had a dog who was a fear biter when I was a child, and with a behaviourist he was rehabilitated and never bit again, after biting me twice and a neighbour girl once). I know it's possible.

But. If you don't have it in you, that is fair enough. I'm surprised to see so many guilting responses here, honestly. The dog bit somebody with no objective provocation and no warning. Choosing to work with that is a risky decision. Choosing to give the dog back to the rescue, or euthanize, in everywhere but internet-land will be considered a very sane choice to make.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

there is a difference between a dog that isn't wired right and attacks a human and a dog that considered themselves threatened with a stick by a stranger who bit in defense mode.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> there is a difference between a dog that isn't wired right and attacks a human and a dog that considered themselves threatened with a stick by a stranger who bit in defense mode.


My thoughts exactly. My mother's lab mix becomes defensive when strangers wave stuff by his head... We have always just warned people and ensured his comfort around new people by having them play fetch with a tennis ball.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Yes I understand that. 

But realistically, in this world, there will be strangers walking by with sticks or hats or whatever random object scares the dog. Dogs are domestic animals and need to be able to operate safely in society. 

Fear aggression is a difficult thing to work with. People here are saying you have to manage the dog for the rest of its life, most of the time. That is a huge undertaking, a lifestyle adjustment and an enormous liability, and it's okay not to want to do that.

I don't think it does dogs in general a disservice to put down those who are aggressive. In fact I think quite the opposite, because dogs that bite cause problems for dogs in general. I'm not saying a dog that bites must be put down, I think choosing to take on the big responsibility of working with that dog is a very valid choice. Sometimes an admirable one, sometimes a stupid one. I don't think it's inherently better though than saying you know what, this is too much, this is not what I signed on for and I'm not willing to take the risk of owning an animal that has shown it will bite people for unpredictable reasons.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

It's true that people will walk by like that, but only a fool who is threatening or taunting would wave a stick at a strange dog. Just my opinion...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I am not an expert in dog behaviour, but I will post to offer a 'general public/dog appreciator' opinion. To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down.
> 
> The dog bit somebody with no objective provocation and no warning. Choosing to work with that is a risky decision. Choosing to give the dog back to the rescue, or euthanize, in everywhere but internet-land will be considered a very sane choice to make.


First I don't think your opinion is a general public/dog appreciator opinion at all...that is my opinion. Second, there are many different situations that dogs bite everyday...some provoked, some not..still not up to anyone to decide or state that the dog should be put down. And if you read the post the man waved a stick over the dogs head and given its a rescue and no history is known, you don't think that provoked the dog? If that dog was ever abused by a man it had no idea that this particular man was any different. Suggesting that this dog is put to sleep is way over the top...I and many others seem to think this is human error(that can be fixed) if worked on...nothing in this life comes easy and this is no different. Say what you like but don't suggest euthanizing a dog that clearly needs help...that is not the general opinion in this case.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Yes, that is true. I dont know if the man deliberately taunted the dog or walked by and waved it near her.

There are a lot of fools in this world.

I think a lot depends on whether this behaviour was taunting intentionally, or whether you can reasonably expect it or something like it to happen again. If the guy was coming at the dog, that is one thing. Going by and being careless, to me it is unreasonable to expect a basic standard of dog ownership to include keeping a dog that will bite in any but the most extreme circumstance.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

llombardo said:


> First I don't think your opinion is a general public/dog appreciator opinion at all...that is my opinion. Second, there are many different situations that dogs bite everyday...some provoked, some not..still not up to anyone to decide or state that the dog should be put down. And if you read the post the man waved a stick over the dogs head and given its a rescue and no history is known, you don't think that provoked the dog? If that dog was ever abused by a man it had no idea that this particular man was any different. Suggesting that this dog is put to sleep is way over the top...I and many others seem to think this is human error(that can be fixed) if worked on...nothing in this life comes easy and this is no different. Say what you like but don't suggest euthanizing a dog that clearly needs help...that is not the general opinion in this case.


This!


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> First I don't think your opinion is a general public/dog appreciator opinion at all...that is my opinion. Second, there are many different situations that dogs bite everyday...some provoked, some not..still not up to anyone to decide or state that the dog should be put down. And if you read the post the man waved a stick over the dogs head and given its a rescue and no history is known, you don't think that provoked the dog? If that dog was ever abused by a man it had no idea that this particular man was any different. Suggesting that this dog is put to sleep is way over the top...I and many others seem to think this is human error(that can be fixed) if worked on...nothing in this life comes easy and this is no different. Say what you like but don't suggest euthanizing a dog that clearly needs help...that is not the general opinion in this case.


Okay sure I have no idea if my opinion is representative or not, very true. 

Once a dog has bitten a person, broken skin and caused blood to flow, in my opinion they have shown that they cannot be trusted. Yes perhaps the behaviour can be fixed, but perhaps not. Perhaps it can be successfully managed, perhaps not.

It's easy to say keep the dog on the internet, but honestly if I had a dog that bit someone? I would have to think very long and hard about whether I was willing to keep that dog, and my answer would probably be no. I don't think anyone in that position should be guilted and told that there is only one appropriate choice, and that is to 'do right by'/keep a dog that has bitten. That kind of decision is a very big deal.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I'm not willing to take the risk of owning an animal that has shown it will bite people for unpredictable reasons.


I seriously do not think that this dog bite was unpredictable at all. Lots of dogs might have reacted the same way, again like someone else said....only a fool would do this with any dog, much less a dog that they didn't know. I can't even guarantee what my own dogs reaction would be if someone did that to them...of course if I would have lots to say if someone attempted to do this to my dog.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I seriously do not think that this dog bite was unpredictable at all. Lots of dogs might have reacted the same way, again like someone else said....only a fool would do this with any dog, much less a dog that they didn't know. I can't even guarantee what my own dogs reaction would be if someone did that to them...of course if I would have lots to say if someone attempted to do this to my dog.


As I said before, it really depends on what happened, and that is hard to parse out from a post on an internet forum. Going by and casually waving a stick, people are going to do that kind of thing. Coming at the dog brandishing the stick as a weapon is something entirely different. 

It seems like the dog is showing a more generalized fear/aggressive response to older men, or am I imagining reading that? Red flag, in my opinion. This is a dog that is going to require a lot of work, as many are saying, and that may never be fully trustworthy. 

I think common sense says an owner gets to decide if they are up for that or not. Either answer is a fair one.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> Okay sure I have no idea if my opinion is representative or not, very true.
> 
> Once a dog has bitten a person, broken skin and caused blood to flow, in my opinion they have shown that they cannot be trusted. Yes perhaps the behaviour can be fixed, but perhaps not. Perhaps it can be successfully managed, perhaps not.
> 
> It's easy to say keep the dog on the internet, but honestly if I had a dog that bit someone? I would have to think very long and hard about whether I was willing to keep that dog, and my answer would probably be no. I don't think anyone in that position should be guilted and told that there is only one appropriate choice, and that is to 'do right by'/keep a dog that has bitten. That kind of decision is a very big deal.


I have a seven year old Samoyed mix that I got at a shelter when she was 10 months old, she never showed signs of any kind of aggression towards people or other animals. One day about 2 years ago, she was sick and started to throw up on the bed, my boyfriend grabbed her while she was throwing up. She did bite him and bit him good...he probably needed stitches. We never once considered her a biter or dangerous. She has never bitten since then or before then. I would have never considered putting her to sleep and I trust her 100%. I never had to manage her or watch her...She is a wonderful dog that was having a bad day...my boyfriend should have never grabbed her while she was in that state...human error.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I have a seven year old Samoyed mix that I got at a shelter when she was 10 months old, she never showed signs of any kind of aggression towards people or other animals. One day about 2 years ago, she was sick and started to throw up on the bed, my boyfriend grabbed her while she was throwing up. She did bite him and bit him good...he probably needed stitches. We never once considered her a biter or dangerous. She has never bitten since then or before then. I would have never considered putting her to sleep and I trust her 100%. I never had to manage her or watch her...She is a wonderful dog that was having a bad day...my boyfriend should have never grabbed her while she was in that state...human error.


Surely you're not advocating that as the standard for responsible ownership though? Dog bites trusted human while human is handling dog. Chalk it up to human error, bad day for the dog, and continue trusting dog 100%?

I undertand that you know your dog. I'm not saying you did it wrong. But I also don't think this is the way everyone should proceed in that circumstance.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> Surely you're not advocating that as the standard for responsible ownership though? Dog bites trusted human while human is handling dog. Chalk it up to human error, bad day for the dog, and continue trusting dog 100%?
> 
> I undertand that you know your dog. I'm not saying you did it wrong. But I also don't think this is the way everyone should proceed in that circumstance.


I'm not a big believer in "Once a biter, always a biter". What I'm saying is that there are circumstances and they are different in every situation and saying that once a dog bites they should be considered high risk and possibly put to sleep is not always the answer. Now if there is a dog that just starts snapping at kids and people in general for no reason...that is an issue that is serious and needs to be dealt with immediately.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> .my boyfriend should have never grabbed her while she was in that state...human error.


I'm sorry but this is hogwash, IMO. 
I've had to move dozens of dogs, or more, when they are sick and vomiting. They are more interested in vomiting than biting someone.
No clue what was going on there, but if you can't move a dog (by collar or not), while it's vomiting, without fear of being bitten, there is a problem.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Nickyb said:


> ... I love this dog with all my heart, she really is an awesome dog. All of my friends LOVE her and she's never had an issue with anyone...





Nickyb said:


> ....I am very attached to her already as is my girlfriend. She started to cry at the thought of giving Zoey back up as did I....





Nickyb said:


> ....I love this dog.....





Nickyb said:


> I love this dog to death...





Nickyb said:


> I truly just want the best for Zoey....





Nickyb said:


> ... I don't know if i can give her up now...





Nickyb said:


> ... I read the email and started to cry.... I'm a 24 y/o male @ work reading this, thought I was a lot stronger than this....


What do I think?  Put up or shut up.  Honestly I say that in all sweet sincerity. You love this dog. You want the best for this dog. This dog is perhaps "over your head," but I took on such a dog a few months back, too. Not the same issues, but you learn as you go.  I'm 4+ months in with my "challenge," and I don't regret it for a single second. Now, if you had talked to me 2 or 3 months ago?  Different answers probably. Is it "easy" now? NO! But we've had enough time now to bond, to develop routines, to work on basic training, etc. 

You've put lots of money into this. Now you need management, training, time, dedication and bond building. You can do this thing if you want to do this thing. You know her triggers. (Men, it sounds like.) Sure, a trainer to come in would be invaluable, but you can work this with LAT, NILIF and be much farther along than where you were! When you see success with such things, it will boost your confidence.

Did I cry at times? YEAH! He was a nutjob! He bashed me into walls! :rofl: I would lay in my bed thinking oh my goodness, WHAT have I done taking in this crazy dog??? I do NOT know what I'm doing here! (And I didn't.) I asked questions and slooowly, but surely, he wormed himself into my heart and as I tried various suggestions, they began to work... and life slowly became easier.

There are no overnight cures. No easy answers and no one size fits all solutions. 

The answer is in your own heart and you'll find it. Just do your best to get off the fence and go one direction or another.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

chelle - that thread is in another forum. This thread is a discussion that went off from the original topic and is now moved.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4344-my-dog-bit-my-friends-father-helppp.html

When people kept posting after I said create a new thread, you may have lost some of your posts.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I'm sorry but this is hogwash, IMO.
> I've had to move dozens of dogs, or more, when they are sick and vomiting. They are more interested in vomiting than biting someone.
> No clue what was going on there, but if you can't move a dog (by collar or not), while it's vomiting, without fear of being bitten, there is a problem.


They lost my response to this What I said is...I don't see it as a problem. I was not there to witness it, but I'm sure that he grabbed her in a not so nice way(he doesn't know much about dogs). I move her all the time if she is vomiting or if she is on the bed vomiting versus the floor, etc. She has never gone after me and I'm not afraid to move her. She loves all people and all animals without a doubt. The boyfriend handle it completely wrong.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> chelle - that thread is in another forum. This thread is a discussion that went off from the original topic and is now moved.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4344-my-dog-bit-my-friends-father-helppp.html
> 
> When people kept posting after I said create a new thread, you may have lost some of your posts.


Agh!  I took a long time to make that post, so I guess in the meantime it moved around... I don't want it on this thread. I don't think I even want to engage on this thread. :laugh: I just wanted to reply to the OP. I'll try to cut and paste?

Thanks!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I was not there to witness it,


Well then you can't be sure what really happened, so why give it as an example?


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I want to say I didn't make a red frowny face with the original post of this thread.

I also didn't post to have a theoretical discussion, but because the original poster in the other thread was being guilted to keep the dog as the only reasonable choice. That was why I posted as I did.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Just because a dog bites a person does mean the dog is a "Biter" and needs to be put down.

*Depends entirly upon the circumstances in my mind*. OTOH, waving a stick toward a dog is certainly no justification for the dog to bite - hitting the dog with a stick is another matter but I don't believe that we really know what actually happened (I don't, at any rate) so cannot make a judgement call.

I have had GSD's who have bitten - no thought ever to get rid of or put them down. The circumstances were entirely justified to me and others around us. The one with the most bites (3) was an entirely trustworthy dog who I would and did trust entirely around little kids and other dogs and even strange cats.

Only the owners know what really happened that day.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Just because a dog bites a person does mean the dog is a "Biter" and needs to be put down.
> 
> *Depends entirly upon the circumstances in my mind*. OTOH, waving a stick toward a dog is certainly no justification for the dog to bite - hitting the dog with a stick is another matter but I don't believe that we really know what actually happened (I don't, at any rate) so cannot make a judgement call.
> 
> ...


Stop the presses. NOW. I agree with Cod. I even want to give him the thumbs up emoticon. 

Seriously, though. Who knows what that dog had been thru.? Had it been beaten with a stick? Clearly something had happened with that dog and a stick -- and considering its reaction to males with sticks -- it isn't that far off the mark to presume the dog had been hit by a male with a stick. 

No one will ever know. Only time will tell. Should this dog continue to be aggressive, or become more aggressive? Perhaps harder decisions would need to be made.

I know I talk about Tucker a lot -- sorry -- but when he first got here and I touched his neck, he'd put teeth on me and become agitated. Very light, didn't hurt, but he didn't like it. It came from his past. No, he never bit or broke my skin, but that's not the point. Point being, I suppose, is that he had history there and if I would've pushed it too hard? He likely may have bitten me. Minerva, had I done that -- overwhelmed him - he may have been the type of dog you're talking about. Then where would he be? 

Not alive.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

chelle said:


> Stop the presses. NOW. I agree with Cod. I even want to give him the thumbs up emoticon.
> 
> Seriously, though. Who knows what that dog had been thru.? Had it been beaten with a stick? Clearly something had happened with that dog and a stick -- and considering its reaction to males with sticks -- it isn't that far off the mark to presume the dog had been hit by a male with a stick.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand that it may well stem from something in the dog's past. I also agree that only time will tell, if the OP is willing to keep her and see how things go. That's an IF. 

I am not saying he shouldn't. I was just alarmed at the tone of 'do the right thing by her! you have a responsibility to this dog! you must keep her!' posts. It's a huge decision.

Whatever lead to this point, the outcome is we now know the dog will bite, in circumstances that cannot be entirely predicted. Was it a one time thing? Maybe. Maybe not. It's an undertaking to decide to find out, is all I am saying.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

minerva_deluthe said:


> Yes I understand that it may well stem from something in the dog's past. I also agree that only time will tell, if the OP is willing to keep her and see how things go. That's an IF.
> 
> I am not saying he shouldn't. I was just alarmed at the tone of 'do the right thing by her! you have a responsibility to this dog! you must keep her!' posts. It's a huge decision.
> 
> Whatever lead to this point, the outcome is we now know the dog will bite, in circumstances that cannot be entirely predicted. Was it a one time thing? Maybe. Maybe not. It's an undertaking to decide to find out, is all I am saying.


I agree with you. The reason I did encourage the OP to work and try was his repeated comments about how much he loved the dog. He clearly does. Now whether love can translate to hard-core daily work, training, management, etc may or not may be another story. That is not said as a slam in *any way, shape or form against* the OP. Taking such a thing on *is* a big deal. 

I have no life really  so I can devote stupid amounts of time that normal people would be out doing normal human things. I don't know about OP's life, time, nor level of time and training committment. If he has that, I do think he should try to work on this. 

Clearly it is going to take some work. Likely a lot of work. This dog just doesn't come across as a "loss." The dog has a month + in with this new owner and to rehome already would just set this dog back so much further. 

Tough situation.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

minerva_deluthe said:


> , but I will post to offer a 'general public/dog appreciator' opinion. To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down. QUOTE]
> 
> I don't agree either that this is the general dog appreciator opinion. Dogs have teeth. Depending on the context they might be end up biting a human. I have been bitten several times by cats. Yet, no one ever suggests putting a cat down because it bit a person. People seem to know that cats bite and that's part of nature.
> 
> ...


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

chelle said:


> I agree with you. The reason I did encourage the OP to work and try was his repeated comments about how much he loved the dog. He clearly does. Now whether love can translate to hard-core daily work, training, management, etc may or not may be another story. That is not said as a slam in *any way, shape or form against* the OP. Taking such a thing on *is* a big deal.
> 
> I have no life really  so I can devote stupid amounts of time that normal people would be out doing normal human things. I don't know about OP's life, time, nor level of time and training committment. If he has that, I do think he should try to work on this.
> 
> ...


I agree with you.

Personally, in my own situation, I have two children and would not keep a biting dog. I just don't have the time and I would never be able to risk it. Yet we did consider rescuing. I think it's okay for people to rescue yet not be willing/able to deal with a dog that bites, and I think it's fair and normal to be considering heavily whether to keep a dog once it has bitten.

I definitely see what you are saying though that this type of bite situation is not a definite write-off. It is very possible the dog can be worked with.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Ocean said:


> I don't agree either that this is the general dog appreciator opinion. Dogs have teeth. Depending on the context they might be end up biting a human. I have been bitten several times by cats. Yet, no one ever suggests putting a cat down because it bit a person. People seem to know that cats bite and that's part of nature.
> 
> I grew up in a different era and in the countryside. Back then, people assumed that if you did something stupid or in some set of circumstances a dog might end up biting you. People never leapt to the conclusion that it is a bad dog that should be put down or even that it needed special management necessarily. People grew up respecting dogs and knew how to deal with a variety of them. Sadly, as most people spend all their lives in the city and never interact with all sorts of dogs on a daily basis anymore basic dog sense seems to have left the general population.
> 
> More than half of people who own a GSD should probably own a diffferent breed or no dog at all. These days you have to protect your dog from people who don't have dog sense including many dog owners.


This made me


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Ocean said:


> I don't agree either that this is the general dog appreciator opinion. Dogs have teeth. Depending on the context they might be end up biting a human. I have been bitten several times by cats. Yet, no one ever suggests putting a cat down because it bit a person. People seem to know that cats bite and that's part of nature.
> 
> I grew up in a different era and in the countryside. Back then, people assumed that if you did something stupid or in some set of circumstances a dog might end up biting you. People never leapt to the conclusion that it is a bad dog that should be put down or even that it needed special management necessarily. People grew up respecting dogs and knew how to deal with a variety of them. Sadly, as most people spend all their lives in the city and never interact with all sorts of dogs on a daily basis anymore basic dog sense seems to have left the general population.
> 
> More than half of people who own a GSD should probably own a diffferent breed or no dog at all. These days you have to protect your dog from people who don't have dog sense including many dog owners.


I know dogs have teeth, I know dogs bite. It's about bite threshold, right? We as a society have an expectation of a very high threshold, that a lot would need to happen to justify biting a human.

I hear you about time and place. Country is different than city, 30 years ago is different than today. In my experience, today, biting is just not considered acceptable except under severe circumstances. 

Biting cats get given up or euthanized all the time. 

I agree that idiots abound where dogs are concerned, among both dog owners and non dog owners. In my neighbourhood everyone seems to want their dog to approach yours, when you are trying to peacefully pass by. My friend's dog growls, which shocks people, and I get irritated because I dont want my semi-vaccinated puppy meeting every single dog out there. And many people don't know how to act with dogs. I dont think that should take over the lives of dog owners, but I think it's reasonable to want a dog that can be trusted to deal with the people it is likely to come across, idiots and all. 

I know I am out there socializing my puppy like crazy! To kids, people of all ages, people in uniforms, people yelling, setting off fireworks, even some guy dressed up as an apple. She needs to be able to deal with all sorts.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

minerva_deluthe said:


> To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down.


 
*Preposterous!!!*



minerva_deluthe said:


> I think it's reasonable to want a dog that can be trusted to deal with the people it is likely to come across, idiots and all.


I have one. Then she bit someone.

*Any* dog given the right set of circumstances can bite!

My girl is still an extremely trustworthy dog - except for that one particular set of circumstances.

She was never at *any* level of risk to be put down!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> Stop the presses. NOW. I agree with Cod. I even want to give him the thumbs up emoticon.
> 
> Seriously, though. Who knows what that dog had been thru.? Had it been beaten with a stick? Clearly something had happened with that dog and a stick -- and considering its reaction to males with sticks -- it isn't that far off the mark to presume the dog had been hit by a male with a stick.
> 
> ...


 
Now that is great! Thanks!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Sorry, wrong thread.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

haha..I always like it when they spilt up 2 threads....chaos 

I really just wanted to ask everybody's 2 cents on this.......what would a dog have to do...to be considered unfixable or untrainable? How would you know a dog has a screw loose? I get that biting a kid would rank pretty high on most peoples list......but what else would you consider to be a red flag and give up??


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Every situation is unique and has to be analyzed. A bite is not always a vicious unprovoked attack. 

I miss the old days. Animals were animals. Crazy wasn't ever good but did not occur often. Dogs bite sometimes. Horses buck. Cows kick. Cats scratch. I have been on the receiving end of those things.

I had a dog bite a kid. Not a dangerous dog at all who continued to live, love and be loved the rest of his life. I was able to tell the kid "I told you so" and I hope he learned something.

I am not cavalier with dogs though. I see people put animals in situations and expect so much more of animal brains than should be expected of animal brains. These are animals and I love them for that but I don't have an unrealistic expectation of them. I think much of our culture is not on that page though.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Just because a dog bites a person does mean the dog is a "Biter" and needs to be put down.
> 
> *Depends entirly upon the circumstances in my mind*


This.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

This world has really gotten out of hand. People expect animals to behave better than people and we will kill then if they don't but we let our children behave like wild animals and do nothing when they misbehave, mistreat, bully or torment animals, other kids or even old people. 

Makes no sense to me.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> This world has really gotten out of hand. People expect animals to behave better than people and we will kill then if they don't but we let our children behave like wild animals and do nothing when they misbehave, mistreat, bully or torment animals, other kids or even old people.
> 
> Makes no sense to me.


Yes!! This!!


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

DharmasMom said:


> This world has really gotten out of hand. People expect animals to behave better than people and we will kill then if they don't but we let our children behave like wild animals and do nothing when they misbehave, mistreat, bully or torment animals, other kids or even old people.
> 
> Makes no sense to me.



Here, here!


I'm another in the group of "it depends" Just because a dog bites, doesn't mean its dangerous and can't ever be trusted. My GSD has bitten three times in her life, she is 11yrs old now and all bites were within good reason. Ok, so maybe one actual bite and then two nips.

She is solid black, when she was a year old or so I think, we were walking in the park, it was getting dark (around dusk) and we were going back to the car, walking under a bridge, there were some bushed lined on either side of the walk right before the bridge. My dog was a little bit infront of me and next thing I know, I see two hands on either side of me and then hear "snarlsnarlgrowl BITE snarlsnarl" and see the guy limping away. 

There was another time, it was late at night, lights off, she was laying in the hall way and I stepped on her  She was asleep in the hallway and I did not see her. I guess I wouldn't say she bit me, there wasn't even a mark on me but I did feel her mouth on my foot. I think she realized at the last minute what was going on and stopped herself. 

The third time my ex husband had me on the ground and wouldn't let me up. He thought it was funny, I didn't, I started screaming and next thing I know Baily nips him in the leg. She would also get in between us in bed and push him away to. She knew before I did that he should have been an ex  lol.

These incidents were years in between each other. I have never once not "trusted" my dog with my kids. She taught my oldest son how to walk, slept with my oldest daughter when she was scared and is very gentle with my two youngest. I would have never thought to put her down because of the incidents.

Growing up my uncle had dog, they told me to leave the dog alone while it ate. I didn't, the dog bit me, I got into trouble for messing with the dog.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I hope it's clear that I am also in the 'it depends' group. 

And I agree about unruly children today. 

As I said in the other thread, I was bitten twice by our family dog as a child. Once on the face (four stitches, looks like a dimple now), and once on the hand. A neighbour girl was also bitten by him.

It was my family's fault (bad training methods), and he was (really we were) re-trained by a police dog trainer who happened to live at the end of our street. He went on to live another ten years and never bit anyone again. 

I'm just saying that if you have a dog that bites, particularly a large powerful dog who bites in unpredictable circumstances, that is a lot to take on. We need dogs who can be trusted. I'm not saying this dog can't be trusted, that she wont' be able to be trusted in the future. She might. But it's a lot.

When my daughter was 3 she pulled my sleeping pit bull off the sofa. Dog snapped at her, scared the crap out of her, teeth came together millimetres from my child's temple. Do I think the miss was an accident? No I do not and I attribute it to the excellent temperament of my pit bull. The situation was clearly my fault, but if I had a dog that would bite my child on the face and draw blood? I would not have kept the dog. 

There are many dogs who need loving homes who do not bite. This dog is breathtakingly beautiful, she seems to have wonderful qualities and I'm not saying she shouldn't be worked with. But if it's too much, that is fair enough. We can't pressure people that every biting dog must be saved, because we will have more dog bites that way IMO. And the last thing dogs in general need are more dog bites.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Samba said:


> Every situation is unique and has to be analyzed. A bite is not always a vicious unprovoked attack.
> 
> I miss the old days. Animals were animals. Crazy wasn't ever good but did not occur often. Dogs bite sometimes. Horses buck. Cows kick. Cats scratch. I have been on the receiving end of those things.
> 
> ...


I agree

I had an unfornunate event happen in our family. If they had this attitude, the dog would have lived a long healthy life. My sister adopted an adult Irish Setter and had just brought her home. My sister's child (can't remember age, but under 4 and was a visitor to the house) was petting the dog, pulling on her ears, and the dog growled and air snapped, no contact. I had told them not to let the dog and child be together unitl we knew more about the dog. Nope, child got right in the dogs face, with an adult (mother) right beside the child. Their attitude was a dog should be good with children not matter what yap yap yap.

My brother shot the dog. This was 35+ years ago and I still cannot forgive him for this, nor my parents allowing this to happen. My sister and my brother did not have a good relationship after that for the longest time. I tell you that I do not like it when my brother is around me and my dog. 

I'm in the "it depends" group. Every situation in unique and the conclusions you reach are something that you have to live with the rest of your life, or the dog's life. It depend, on the handler, the dog, the situation.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

hmmmm...wonder if all those human children that bite should be put down too??? ..


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Samba said:


> I see people put animals in situations and expect so much more of animal brains than should be expected of animal brains. These are animals and I love them for that but I don't have an unrealistic expectation of them. I think much of our culture is not on that page though.


Exactly what I see happening.
The mentality (even here at times) is "the dog should _KNOW_ it's a child and be careful with it", as if dogs can think like humans do.
Not gonna happen. That's assigning human morals and thinking capability to an animal who has nowhere near the brain capacity to think like this.

Dangit. I wish more people would read Temple's books. There's many similarities in animals brains and ours, at least mammal brains. But the part missing is the thinking part, the part that allows us to walk around throughout the day and not just (for instance) take a dump in the middle of the street, or start having sex on the bus. We are thinking, rational, well, most of us, humans, and it's because of our brains. 

Animals in Translation

Animals Make Us Human: Chapter 1



> All animals and people have the same core emotion systems in the brain. Most pet owners probably already believe this, but I find that a lot of executives, plant managers, and even some veterinarians and researchers still don’t believe that animals have emotions. The first thing I tell them is that the same psychiatric medications, such as Prozac, that work for humans also work for animals. Unless you are an expert, when you dissect a pig’s brain it’s difficult to tell the difference between the lower-down parts of the animal’s brain and the lower-down parts of a human brain. Human beings have a much bigger neocortex, but the core emotions aren’t located in the neocortex. They’re in the lower-down part of the brain.



The part that makes us different is what matters, and why people tend to think of dogs as little humans with fur. 
But - here's the biggie - DO NOT MAKE THAT MISTAKE!!
They are not little humans with fur and they never will be.
Although we have many similarities - when we wake up, we both stretch and yawn. We like to snuggle, etc.
But we have thinking and rationing capabilities, and dogs simply do not.
When you attribute those thinking/rationing capabilities to animals who do not possess it, you're going to wind up in trouble one way or another, with your pet.

This is when bites occur, sadly enough.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I agree that people are idiots about dogs, and assume all kinds of human traits. Even the 'my baby' stuff here is off, in my opinion. It's a dog!

To me though, this is the society we live in. Yes people need to be a lot better educated. Owners particularly, though if society in general wasn't so ridiculously stupid about dogs that would be great.

But given the circumstances, we need reliable dogs that don't bite except in the most extreme situations. And we have a lot of those, sitting in shelters and rescues.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I seriously don't get it. 

*Note: "You" is the collective you, not anybody in particular.*

I have horses, I'd never allow your children to go play hopscotch in the stall with one of my horses. Nor would I allow your children in my barn without adult supervision. I wouldn't allow you in my barn with out my supervision. And my horses have NEVER kicked /bit / attacked/ ran over etc. anybody. 

I have dogs. I wouldn't allow your children to play near my dogs. Nor would allow your children to go into my backyard, house, kennel area, front yard etc. with out my supervision. Nor would I allow you. 

I have cats...well, they won't allow you near them, so I really don't have to safe guard the human population agaisnt them. 

I have one dog that has bitten. He has bitten me. He has medical issues. I can keep him from the general public. I can keep him safe from you and you from him. If I lived in an apartment or had neighbors who lived right next to me, he would have been PTS years ago. If I couldn't manage him then I wouldn't expect anybody else to. 

I had a GSD as a youth that bit someone in the face. She saved me from being raped and drowned. She never bit before, or after. She was also around my daughter as an infant. She was a great dog.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I seriously don't get it.
> 
> *Note: "You" is the collective you, not anybody in particular.*
> 
> ...


That is great for you.

I need dogs who can be around playing children, who can deal with my own and other children in the backyard, in the playroom, in the house in general.

If you can keep your dogs contained from things even though you feel they might bite in those circumstances, as long as you are successful in your containment you will not have a problem.

But overall, dogs are going to be around many things in this society, including playing children, and they need to not bite them.

I wonder how many people here eat meat? I find it odd that the 'rights' of dogs who may bite are being so vigorously defended, and I'm assuming I'm not talking to a bunch of vegans here. 

Dogs are animals. If they are going to coexist in our towns and cities, they need to not do violence to people. 

This conversation surprises me greatly, to be honest.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

i for one want my dog to bite. i want my dog to be a dog and act like a dog and do all the things dogs do. and yes my dogs are just like my children...i have 3 human children and i have 2 k9 children.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh crud. My friend left her dog outside with playing children. This is something I never do and advise strongly against. These are animals and children, after all. My friend's dog is dead. She has been unable emotionally to pick up her pup's ashes. We can not put the toddler down, of course. Adult decisions about animals and children really do matter. A dog can not make the "right" deision in human terms and children have limited understanding.

I in no way make excuses for instability. But, people should never expect normal dogs not to bite!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, the only time I can remember anyone recommending a dog be euthanized on this board was when a dog almost killed a child. However, 99% of the time we on this board in "Internet Land" do not have the appropriate information to advise someone to euthanize their dog. That would be highly irresponsible for any of us to advise that given that we have never seen the animal and that 99.9% of us on here are not trainers or behaviorist. 

We do have a HA dog. We manage her, she has never in her almost 13 years bitten anyone. We know what caused the HA and we limit her exposure to strangers. If someone comes to the house, she is leashed and not allowed to go near them unless she settles down and then they treat her. It's a choice we made and we don't regret it. Given our experience, I think your notion that HA should be an automatic death sentence ridiculous and your comment above regarding dogs in shelters offensive. So, in your thinking, I should have killed Banshee and adopted a different dog? That is how your statements reads, I'm sure to more than just me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Adult decisions about animals and children really do matter. A dog can not make the "right" deision in human terms and children have limited understanding.
> 
> I in no way make excuses for instability. But, people should never expect normal dogs not to bite!


:thumbup:

It's all about bite threshold. Just because you haven't found your own dogs' yet, doesn't mean it does not exist.




rooandtree said:


> hmmmm...wonder if all those human children that bite should be put down too??? ..


I find comments like this to be inflammatory and useless at best in discussions involving dogs.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Personally, the only time I can remember anyone recommending a dog be euthanized on this board was when a dog almost killed a child. However, 99% of the time we on this board in "Internet Land" do not have the appropriate information to advise someone to euthanize their dog. That would be highly irresponsible for any of us to advise that given that we have never seen the animal and that 99.9% of us on here are not trainers or behaviorist.
> 
> We do have a HA dog. We manage her, she has never in her almost 13 years bitten anyone. We know what caused the HA and we limit her exposure to strangers. If someone comes to the house, she is leashed and not allowed to go near them unless she settles down and then they treat her. It's a choice we made and we don't regret it. Given our experience, I think your notion that HA should be an automatic death sentence ridiculous and your comment above regarding dogs in shelters offensive. So, in your thinking, I should have killed Banshee and adopted a different dog? That is how your statements reads, I'm sure to more than just me.


I did state very clearly that I am in the 'it depends' camp, over and over again. If you can manage your dog effectively, that is wonderful. Truly. You can't have it as an expectation for all people. 



Samba said:


> Oh crud. My friend left her dog outside with playing children. This is something I never do and advise strongly against. These are animals and children, after all. My friend's dog is dead. She has been unable emotionally to pick up her pup's ashes. We can not put the toddler down, of course. Adult decisions about animals and children really do matter. A dog can not make the "right" deision in human terms and children have limited understanding.
> 
> I in no way make excuses for instability. But, people should never expect normal dogs not to bite!


I do very much expect my dogs to be able to be around playing children and not bite. I would not keep a dog that threatened children for just being children. The warning snap my dog gave my child years ago was because the child was manhandling her disrespectfully. Had that same dog snapped at my child's face for regular child behaviour, she would have been gone. And had she broken skin near my child's eye even in the circumstances she was in? She also would have been gone.

"Oh that scar next to my daughter's left eye? That's from the pit bull, yes the one sleeping over there on her dog bed." Not in a million years.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

with all my own dogs and my fosters ived had(too many to count) everytime a kid runs up and asks..can i pet your dog does he bite? my reply is always the same ALL dogs bite. if we humans would get that thru our heads that all dogs are capable of biting it might be better. Just like all snakes hiss,cats meows and scratches,cows go moo..im not saying that all dogs should bite and allow to bite..but what im saying is sometimes its a natural reaction..kinda like when i stub my toe on the couch i can not control the first few bad words that escape my mouth


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

To be honest, and I hope I don't sound like an awful parent here, but my dog bit my son once and drew blood. It didn't need stitches or anything, and almost looked like a scratch. But my son had done something stupid to the dog, and he knew better. I totally blamed my son, and not only did he get bit but he also got in trouble from me. Didn't really ever occur to me to euthanize or rehome the dog because I would have bit Michael too if I were the dog. And nothing like that ever happened again, and I totally trust the dog. 

One last thing - my son wasn't a young child or toddler. I can't remember his age, but more like early teenager.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

rooandtree said:


> with all my own dogs and my fosters ived had(too many to count) everytime a kid runs up and asks..can i pet your dog does he bite? my reply is always the same ALL dogs bite. if we humans would get that thru our heads that all dogs are capable of biting it might be better. Just like all snakes hiss,cats meows and scratches,cows go moo..im not saying that all dogs should bite and allow to bite..but what im saying is sometimes its a natural reaction..kinda like when i stub my toe on the couch i can not control the first few bad words that escape my mouth


I think that's a great answer that you are giving strange kids.

I think it's a matter of when. If the dog bites while you are torturing it, that's one thing.

If the dog bites in circumstances that are likely to occur in the course of normal life, in my opinion it is not a safe dog to have. If you can train or contain it, good. If not, fair enough.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

minerva_deluthe said:


> But overall, dogs are going to be around many things in this society, including playing children, and they need to not bite them.


But overall, there are many dogs who aren't going to be around many things in society. There are a great number of people who take responsiblity of their animals and don't allow them to be around such things unsupervised. My dogs aren't around children. I couldn't truly say if they'd bite or not. I wouldn't take them into the playground at Micky D's to find out. There isn't a neighborhood daycare that allows you to bring in your dogs for socialization. 

My grand neice came to stay at my house for a week with my sister. If *I* wasn't there, all of my dogs were either crated, kenneled or out in the back yard with the sliding glass door locked. It made no difference to me if my sister was there or not. They are _*my*_ dogs. 

BTW - all of my dogs behaved wonderfully. Never offered even a lip. Is it because of their wonderful genetics? I tend to think not. I think it has more to do with the fact that I was in their face the entire time.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

LaneyB said:


> To be honest, and I hope I don't sound like an awful parent here, but my dog bit my son once and drew blood. It didn't need stitches or anything, and almost looked like a scratch. But my son had done something stupid to the dog, and he knew better. I totally blamed my son, and not only did he get bit but he also got in trouble from me. Didn't really ever occur to me to euthanize or rehome the dog because I would have bit Michael too if I were the dog. And nothing like that ever happened again, and I totally trust the dog.
> 
> One last thing - my son wasn't a young child or toddler. I can't remember his age, but more like early teenager.


No I agree with you, in fact I told a story in this thread about a time I did something similar. Though rehoming definitely occurred to me. I would have been devastated, I would have felt at fault (and I would have been) but if I thought the situation would re-arise and my child could be bitten worse I would have rehomed. Luckily my ex partner knew the dog and would have taken her.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If you leave your dogs and kids alone in a room, or outside, how are you going to know, if a bite occurs, why it occurred??


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Lilie said:


> But overall, there are many dogs who aren't going to be around many things in society. There are a great number of people who take responsiblity of their animals and don't allow them to be around such things unsupervised. My dogs aren't around children. I couldn't truly say if they'd bite or not. I wouldn't take them into the playground at Micky D's to find out. There isn't a neighborhood daycare that allows you to bring in your dogs for socialization.
> 
> My grand neice came to stay at my house for a week with my sister. If *I* wasn't there, all of my dogs were either crated, kenneled or out in the back yard with the sliding glass door locked. It made no difference to me if my sister was there or not. They are _*my*_ dogs.
> 
> BTW - all of my dogs behaved wonderfully. Never offered even a lip. Is it because of their wonderful genetics? I tend to think not. I think it has more to do with the fact that I was in their face the entire time.


But again, that's you.

In my life there are children around. I am not willing to have a dog that has to be kenneled or locked outside whenever there are children around. In my world, that would mean the dog lives outside. 

I hope you are not suggesting that responsible ownership means always keeping dogs from children, and that if you dont do that and the dog bites, oh well it's your own fault dont give up on the dog? Because that is what it reads like to me, and that is highly illogical in my opinion.

We currently have a puppy and she will be very very used to children, I have ensured that. She will also be expected to be around them without biting.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> If you leave your dogs and kids alone in a room, or outside, how are you going to know, if a bite occurs, why it occurred??


Neither my kids nor my dog spend extended amounts of time in rooms, while I lay about in peace. 

My kids are taught to be respectful to animals, and they are. (With the exception of a short stage when my oldest was 3 when she bothered the cat and dog. That was 5 years ago. My children now help with the puppy's care and do not do anything mean to her, ever). 

The dog needs to not bite the children. 

They all roam about the house together. I usually know pretty much everyone's every move, whether I like it or not. 

If the dog bites the children, we re-evaluate seriously whether she can continue to live here. Answer is probably no. Depending on circumstances, if a mild bite and I thought I could correct the problem and it would never ever re-occur, I would do so. Would get a behaviourist. But if there was any doubt in my mind, the dog would not be staying. 

My kids regularly go outside and run around with my puppy and my neighbour's retriever. Kids know how to behave respectfully. Both dogs' temperaments are such that they are very unlikely to bite aggressively (puppy very likely to nip, obviously). I wouldn't keep a dog I couldn't trust.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

minerva_deluthe said:


> But again, that's you.
> 
> In my life there are children around. I am not willing to have a dog that has to be kenneled or locked outside whenever there are children around. In my world, that would mean the dog lives outside.
> 
> ...


 yes your puppy will grow up with children and know not to bite..but as that puppy becomes a senoir dog that isnt so happy to have children jumping and pulling and screaming around him the story changes! my oldest was 14 and was raised with kids..when i had my daughter and she was 2 or 3 he snapped at her..he was prob around 10 at the time and had lymes disease and wasnt happy...she jumped and screamed and scared him from behind..he tunred and bite her...not very hard because he could of really did damage...but he did het her and she cried...he felt bad and cried..she felt bad and cried..i felt bad and cried.. i should of got to her quicker and prevented it...NEVER EVER EVER would i have put him down for that.it was a reaction..just like i said before if i wold of stubbed my toe i couldnt help my reaction...there were a few more times as she was growing up he snapped at her too but he was also a great dog to her


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

rooandtree said:


> yes your puppy will grow up with children and know not to bite..but as that puppy becomes a senoir dog that isnt so happy to have children jumping and pulling and screaming around him the story changes! my oldest was 14 and was raised with kids..when i had my daughter and she was 2 or 3 he snapped at her..he was prob around 10 at the time and had lymes disease and wasnt happy...she jumped and screamed and scared him from behind..he tunred and bite her...not very hard because he could of really did damage...but he did het her and she cried...he felt bad and cried..she felt bad and cried..i felt bad and cried.. i should of got to her quicker and prevented it...NEVER EVER EVER would i have put him down for that.it was a reaction..just like i said before if i wold of stubbed my toe i couldnt help my reaction...there were a few more times as she was growing up he snapped at her too but he was also a great dog to her


I hear you. My dog who snapped near my child's temple was a senior dog. 

So then if that is happening you have to re-evaluate whether you can do something different. In my situation, the dog scared the crap out of the child and she stopped bothering her. Perfect. I also put up more barriers so I could ensure separation btw the dog and the child. 

If I couldn't have managed the situation, I would have given away the dog or put her down. No NEVER EVER EVER around here.

Your comparison to stubbing your toe is a bit silly IMO. Yes it's a reaction that you can't control, but it doesn't cause bodily damage to anyone else. If you had reactions that you couldn't control that bodily harmed others, you would be a problem to live with. People end up in jail over that kind of thing, right?


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

well i have been known to punch people that have snuck up from behind me and scared me


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

rooandtree said:


> well i have been known to punch people that have snuck up from behind me and scared me


Heck in Texas I think it's legal to shoot any poor soul who accidentally wanders onto your property, no?

That's not how we do it where I live. Only excuse for violence is self defense. I apply that to dogs as well. I don't see how to safely live with them otherwise.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

i would like to ask the OP a question...a neighborhood child brought her grandfathers yorkies over to my house when she came to play with my daughter...another neighbor was walking his lab and the yorkies flipped out and ran through my fence to get at the lab..i grabbed the one to stop him from running into the street and he bit me mutliple times..even after i set him back on ground. should this dog be put down? should i sue the owner? i was cut pretty bad on my arms and legs.but didnt need stitches


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

rooandtree said:


> i would like to ask the OP a question...a neighborhood child brought her grandfathers yorkies over to my house when she came to play with my daughter...another neighbor was walking his lab and the yorkies flipped out and ran through my fence to get at the lab..i grabbed the one to stop him from running into the street and he bit me mutliple times..even after i set him back on ground. should this dog be put down? should i sue the owner? i was cut pretty bad on my arms and legs.but didnt need stitches


Are you asking me?

I'd say that's a dog with a temperament I don't like. 

What should you do about it? That is entirely up to you. I wouldn't sue, I'm not a suer. Unless it's a repeated circumstance and you think the yorkie is dangerous or that it's likely to reoccur, I probably wouldn't do much but avoid that dog, myself. If the dog is growling at the whole neighbourhood or routinely gets out of the yard and encounters people it may bite, that is different.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

yes was asking you your opinion..the dogs are annoying to the neighbors..they act aggressive through their fence,im afraid they will escape and get hurt one day by the dogs they try to attack...i was just wondering if you think they should be put to sleep? in this case i blame the dogs owners for not training or socailizing. i simply told the girls to take the dogs home and not to bring them back and to make sure their grangfather knew they bit me and i was bleeding from bites.but even in this case i would rather see the dogs worked with than killed


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, I would have called the grandfather and told him to come get the dog and let him see your hand instead of sending the little girl with the message. I would have then told him to train his dogs (yes, that is a training issue...the dog redirected at you when you picked it up when the actual intent was to attack the other dog).


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I hope you are not suggesting that *responsible ownership means always keeping dogs from children*, and that if you dont do that and *the dog bites, oh well it's your own fault* dont give up on the dog? Because that is what it reads like to me, and that is highly illogical in my opinion.


Why, yes, that is what I'm suggesting. My dogs haven't been socialized around children, so it's my responsiblity to keep them safe from children and children safe from them. I'm being a grown up and taking grown up responsiblities. 

And yes, a dog bites a child or grown up for that matter, it is the fault of the owner. It's called....Responsibility. 

It may be highly illogical to you, because it is putting the responsibility of my dog's actions on me. Which is totally logical to me. 

BTW, my daughter, neices and nephews were heavy into 4-H showing dogs - NEVER had a single bite with in the entire 4-H group for all those years! Grown ups were always around.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> And yes, a dog bites a child or grown up for that matter, it is the fault of the owner. It's called....*Responsibility. *
> 
> It may be highly illogical to you, because it is putting the responsibility of my dog's actions on me. Which is totally logical to me.


Dogs just are. They cannot take responsibility for themselves, which is why they are dogs 
Your attitude is perfect and one I love to see in our potential adopters.
Dogs are capable of no morals or decision making and when they are allowed to...or worse, _expected to_...make responsible judgement calls, this is when disaster strikes.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

minerva_deluthe said:


> Heck in Texas I think it's legal to shoot any poor soul who accidentally wanders onto your property, no?


I suppose that totally depends on how a person would accidentlally wander onto your property. 

"Ooops! Didn't realize the homeowner had a weapon to protect his/her property! Here, let me put this TV back where I found it. My mistake for slapping around your grandmother. "


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

minerva_deluthe said:


> But again, that's you.
> In my life there are children around. I am not willing to have a dog that has to be kenneled or locked outside whenever there are children around. In my world, that would mean the dog lives outside.
> *I hope you are not suggesting that responsible ownership means always keeping dogs from children, and that if you dont do that and the dog bites, oh well it's your own fault dont give up on the dog? Because that is what it reads like to me, and that is highly illogical in my opinion.*
> We currently have a puppy and she will be very very used to children, I have ensured that. She will also be expected to be around them without biting.


I think you've got the majority of members on here wrong. For instance, we now own a dog who attacked our granddaughter, totally unprovoked. Even though it turns out he has a medical problem I would say that probably 100% of members said they would have him PTS. 

Prior to our current dog, we've owned dogs all our lives and they have been with the children and grandchildren, and we have neither had, or expected problems. The children were shown from the moment they were old enough how to treat the dogs. That's how it should be.

As it happens we still have our dog, but that's only because we can manage him, as the children no longer live with us. If they did, we would have had no choice other than have him PTS. We wouldn't have a dog that we couldn't trust around children living in our home. And it's no life for a dog to have to live virtually permanently isolated from humans. 
__________
Sue


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Personally, I would have called the grandfather and told him to come get the dog and let him see your hand instead of sending the little girl with the message. I would have then told him to train his dogs (yes, that is a training issue...the dog redirected at you when you picked it up when the actual intent was to attack the other dog).


I agree with this.

To me, if it is neighbour dogs and I think they will bite me again, I would try to do something about it, including calling Animal Control and making a bite report, to start. 

If they were my dogs I would be freaking out. 



Lilie said:


> Why, yes, that is what I'm suggesting. My dogs haven't been socialized around children, so it's my responsiblity to keep them safe from children and children safe from them. I'm being a grown up and taking grown up responsiblities.


So actually you aren't suggesting that dogs should never be around kids. Just your own dogs as they are not socialized with children. That is reasonable to me. 



> And yes, a dog bites a child or grown up for that matter, it is the fault of the owner. It's called....Responsibility.
> 
> It may be highly illogical to you, because it is putting the responsibility of my dog's actions on me. Which is totally logical to me.


Sure, I will buy that it's the fault of the owner, for allowing the situation to occur at least. And/or whoever previous to the owner caused the dog to be aggressive, if through abuse or mistreatment.

But, it's not the fault of the next person who is at risk of being bitten. They should not suffer for an owner's mistake. So you either contain, re-train, or get rid of a dog if its aggression cannot be resolved. That IS taking responsibility.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> I think you've got the majority of members on here wrong. For instance, we now own a dog who attacked our granddaughter, totally unprovoked. Even though it turns out he has a medical problem I would say that probably 100% of members said they would have him PTS.
> 
> Prior to our current dog, we've owned dogs all our lives and they have been with the children and grandchildren, and we have neither had, or expected problems. The children were shown from the moment they were old enough how to treat the dogs. That's how it should be.
> 
> ...


I am relieved to hear that. I agree with your perspective 100%.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> If you leave your dogs and kids alone in a room, or outside, how are you going to know, if a bite occurs, why it occurred??


 
Ask the kids?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah because mine _always_ tell the truth!!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

minerva_deluthe said:


> Sure, I will buy that it's the fault of the owner, for allowing the situation to occur at least. And/or whoever previous to the owner *caused the dog to be* *aggressive*, if through abuse or mistreatment.


THIS! is what worries me. A dog doesn't have to be an aggressive dog to bite.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Yeah because mine _always_ tell the truth!!


 
It is very nice to be able to trust your kids (as well as be able to trust your dog)!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really don't expect kids to be watching the dog and the interaction the way a responsible adult would. They may not be lying. But they also may not have registered what actually happened. The dog bit Timmy on the leg. They might not have noticed that the dog was sleeping and Timmy ran over the dog and landed on the dog's leg. 

The dog bit Timmy's hand, they may not bother to say that Timmy had a stick and was playing with the dog, teasing, pretending to throw, and the dog connected.

The dog bit Timmy's face. My dad was about seven and he was playing with a German Shepherd Dog. This incident kind of prejudiced him against the breed for a long time, but he agrees that it wasn't the dog's fault. He was playing with a long stick. Throwing it, etc. And the dog was bringing it back, and going for it. Well Dad put the stick behind his back. And the top of the stick showed above my dad's head. The dog leaped and got my dad's face in his jaws. He stopped immediately, but it was still scary and painful. 

I guess I would not necessarily trust kids to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, when that truth might mean life or death to a critter, and the kid might not be lying, just not aware of the total situation.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Lilie said:


> THIS! is what worries me. A dog doesn't have to be an aggressive dog to bite.


Yeah. And each dog has different thresholds. 

And GSDs are powerful dogs with some (we hope good) natural aggression. So there is another layer there.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Yeah. And each dog has different thresholds.
> 
> And GSDs are powerful dogs with some (we hope good) natural aggression. So there is another layer there.


I was meaning to describe the act of biting as an act of aggression, which it is except for puppy nips and accidentally biting while grabbing a stick etc. I understand that a bite doesn't necessarily mean 'an aggressive dog.' 

I guess I will find out about GSD natural aggression. I have read they are territorial, for one thing, which I am interested/worried about. I am used to pit bulls, and while they are often dog aggressive and have a high prey drive, they are not territorial and will pretty much let anyone in the door and show them to the valuables. 

I already notice some alert barking in our young pup. We shall see! I plan to get lots of advice, anyway.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I already notice some alert barking in our young pup. We shall see! I plan to get lots of advice, anyway.


How old is the pup? I only ask because if its a younger pup, alert barking probably isn't what its doing. I think and this is only a thought that most GSD's are on the quiet alert side, but only react if they feel its necessary.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> I guess I would not necessarily trust kids to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, when that truth might mean life or death to a critter, and the kid might not be lying, just not aware of the total situation.


If kids think they are in trouble, they'll withhold the truth or stretch it or whatever, but it's very typical of kids. 
Then, as you say, too, kids may miss all the warning signals. Heck, average adults can't get them right half the time :crazy:


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Exactly what I see happening.
> The mentality (even here at times) is "the dog should _KNOW_ it's a child and be careful with it", as if dogs can think like humans do.
> Not gonna happen. That's assigning human morals and thinking capability to an animal who has nowhere near the brain capacity to think like this.
> 
> ...



Where you are wrong is when you state animals are not rational beings. According to who? Why are they expected to understand our rational? Humans are rational? I think i very strong argument can be made many humans are irrational. Being rational is in these cases is an matter of perspective.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Philosophy really has no place in an argument about aggression/biting in dogs.
Because you can philosophize all day long, but a dog will still get euthanized for biting a child, or kicked out of it's house.
In other words...what's that got to do with the price of tea in China...?


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> How old is the pup? I only ask because if its a younger pup, alert barking probably isn't what its doing. I think and this is only a thought that most GSD's are on the quiet alert side, but only react if they feel its necessary.


She is 14 weeks. I wonder what she is doing then? She barks when she hears noises outside or someone comes to the door, particularly if they come to the front as we mainly use the side.

Educate me! LOL. She is not barking an enormous amount or anything. But any sort of giving-a-crap is new to me. 

I know NOTHING about GSDs other than what I have read, and I've read a lot but only recently, so I'm at the start of the learning curve.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

She's "alerting" but has no capability to "back it up".
If she alerted to a person breaking in your home, what would she do, or be able to do, if that person came on in waving a machine gun? 
She'd get the crap scared out of her and likely run and hide under your bed. She'd perhaps be traumatized for life, if you or she was injured in the process.

Your job right now is to be non-chalant about it and don't feed into the barking and carrying on. Don't praise her for it, but go about your day as usual.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> She's "alerting" but has no capability to "back it up".
> If she alerted to a person breaking in your home, what would she do, or be able to do, if that person came on in waving a machine gun?
> She'd get the crap scared out of her and likely run and hide under your bed. She'd perhaps be traumatized for life, if you or she was injured in the process.
> 
> Your job right now is to be non-chalant about it and don't feed into the barking and carrying on. Don't praise her for it, but go about your day as usual.


Thanks, I can do that.

Yes indeed she would run and hide. LOL.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't really know what prompted this thread but I actually agree with the OP. I personally am not willing to own or work with fear aggressive animals. I have no doubt that they can and do make fine pets in the right homes with the right training but that is something that I either cannot or am not willing to provide. There are too many risk factors considering where and how I live and how my dogs are part of my lifestyle. Owning a truly fear aggressive dog is not fair for me or the dog.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Ok coming in as a trainer here who has to rehabilitate these "fear aggressive" dogs that live secretly in society. 
Humans have very unrealistic expectations about their dogs. They expect the dog to be MANHANDLED to a point where I as a human would punch, blow up, yell at and get defensive. 
Yet an animal, who doesn't completely understand our language, our intentions, and certainly shouldn't be expected to have the patience a human does, is expected to lay back and let it happen?

I don't think so! 

I get calls all the time "my dog bit our child please come evaluate our dog and rehab it". When you sit back, hold back your opinions, to an extent act like you are on the humans side, you get a REALLLY good picture of whats going on in that house. People are usually flabbergasted when I first begin talking, then they hear me out and realize they DO in fact have completely unrealistic ideas of what a dog should act like in a home. 

I see videos all the time on youtube, funniest home videos, and in person at my clients homes, of dogs putting up with ridiculous treatment. The parents think its "cute" or adorable and take photos and videos. 
The fact of the matter is, Who in their RIGHT MIND puts their child in a situation that sets both the CHILD and the DOG up for FAILURE?!

what part of letting a child rip a dogs ear around, shove things in the dogs ears and eyes, steal the dogs valuables, riding the dog, or pulling the dogs hair or tail, seems like a GOOD idea?

What part of "leaving a child and dog alone unsupervised" sounds like a good idea?!

I deal with this EVERY day in my job. 

You can bet your butt I point out to those parents the VERY real danger they are putting their children in. They don't think its so funny anymore when they find out how very real this could be. 

All that being said. I will say this. I have not, and don't have the time to read through all of these responses. 
A dog has thresholds (obviously) and each individual dog varies (obviously). Seeing a stick waved around near a pack member, or themselves is a very real threat to a dog. Even a dog who has NEVER been abused will react in a negative manner to this. 

My 3 month old puppy saw me with a stick when I was playing with it slapping it on the ground. My puppy who has never been abused alert barked on me and considered it a threat. Raising something over the top of a dog is a very real reason to get defensive. 
If someone you didn't know raised a stick like object over your head or swiftly moved it past your face, as a HUMAN BEING you would still flinch, move away, even warn the person not to do that again. 

A dog biting someone for raising a stick or swinging it near its head is a VERY fair reason to bite. Had the dog MAULED the person and tried to maim and kill, yes that is TOO much and the dog is probably unstable. But the ORIGINAL reason for biting is STILL a very legitimate reason. 

THINK about it people! 

Now I don't intend to offend anyone but if the dog already had fear of men, or any specific type of person, and then the dog was subjected to not only one stimulus that causes stress, but now two with a threatening action, the dog is again even more within its rights to bite out of fear. 

It is the owners fault for allowing this circumstance to take place, and its the other persons fault for waving a stick around an unfamiliar dog.

What does this dog need? I would work on some desensitizing and increasing the dogs thresholds. Let the dog observe the type of people that make it uncomfortable in a purely positive and rewarding manner. Should you desensitize the dogs to sticks? I don't think so. 
That's like trying to say we should desensitize our children to strangers talking to them on the street and handing them candy. 

If this is a German Shepherd dog that did this bite, then its even more ridiculous that the dog was put into this situation. These dogs are not for the faint of heart, are not golden retrievers who love everybody, and they have a very real aggression behind them. 
This is why this breed is not for everyone.

This circumstance is something that I consider to be a daily part of being a good dog owner. Don't subject your dog to absolutely ridiculous situations and expect them to handle it better than a human. 

They are animals, they have teeth, and they bite. We are a very aggressive species ourselves, and we all know most of us would react in a relatively similar manner. 

Be realistic. 

Had the dog bitten the person completely unprovoked and out of the blue, then YES there would be a huge issue. 

It all depends on the situation.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Who in their RIGHT MIND puts their child in a situation that sets both the CHILD and the DOG up for FAILURE?!


ALLLLL the freaking time. 
You know, Maris, I see and hear this too - and some of the worst 'defensive' dogs we get came from homes where the kids ran wild and did all the above (pull on, poke, etc.) and even laid on the dogs. Laid on them! Or picked up and dropped, or tossed when the game was over. 
Dog gave all sorts of signals off which people ignored, then by the time the dogs got here, they are defensive messes who bite for little to no "provocation". 
We've rehabbed and gave them to homes where no kids would be present, ever.
People like those who let their kids maul their dogs are just idiots, overall. 
I was at some folks' home doing a/c work when a child came out in the yard, and kicked the small Chi time dog there, for no reason whatsoever.
And these are the dogs we get in rescue all the time.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

I would rehome a fear aggressive dog. Other people have explained the reasons better than I ever could. I just can't risk having one in my home, in a family friendly neighborhood. I'd let someone else take the chance.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

so you would rehome a FA dog to someone else and let them deal with it? that is seriously messed up... no way would i ever rehome a FA dog, the dog either stays with me and is managed or euthanized. no grey area here... if you are that callous to rehome a FA dog and let new owners deal with FA that is beyond wrong.... either man up and manage the dog, or put the dog out of its misery and euth the dog.... if the FA dog you rehome bites someone the new owners can sue you for giving them a FA dog.. its not fair to the new owners or the FA dog......


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I fully believe many children manhandle dogs and are permitted to do it.

I do leave my kids and dog unsupervised all the time. Not like I am completely gone, but I don't watch their every move. My kids don't manhandle the dog. I think a blanket statement about 'never unsupervised!!!' is very unrealistic for homes with children. But, if your kids dont treat the dog properly, then yes you have to supervise. Or, if the dog is not reliable, you have to supervise.

I dont think it's the end of the world to rehome a FA dog. Obviously you disclose the issues. But as can even be seen on this thread, different people have very different lifestyles and different capacities to deal with FA safely and effectively.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> ALLLLL the freaking time.
> You know, Maris, I see and hear this too - and some of the worst 'defensive' dogs we get came from homes where the kids ran wild and did all the above (pull on, poke, etc.) and even laid on the dogs. Laid on them! Or picked up and dropped, or tossed when the game was over.
> Dog gave all sorts of signals off which people ignored, then by the time the dogs got here, they are defensive messes who bite for little to no "provocation".
> We've rehabbed and gave them to homes where no kids would be present, ever.
> ...


I dislike people who let their kids do these things to dogs, then blame the dog if it reacts. I have had dogs and kids together for the last twenty years and never had a problem. I would have seriously reprimanded my son if he ever tried to do something that would aggravate or hurt a dog. When we were growing up we always had dogs too and my mom made it clear how they were to be treated. With all of that being said, my nieces and nephew play in the yard with the dogs all the time...most of the time I'm in and out making sure everything is okay. I lay on my dogs all the time, mostly because if they are there and I want to lay down I do and they don't move, growl, etc. Its actually quite comfortable having a dog as foot prop The picture I attached is of a friends baby that was visiting..she took a liking to my golden and he adored her. After this picture she did lay on him and go to sleep(so did he)...he stayed there and let her sleep...he never moved or showing any signs of being upset..I think he liked it The point being that I would prefer to start kids as young as this little girl to teach them how to treat an animal.



http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I received a PM in response to this thread asking what business I have owning a German Shepherd if I don't think it's acceptable for dogs to bite people. 'Strong fighting instinct' was quoted to me from the breed standard, I was told these dogs are genetically human aggressive, and asked what I will do with my puppy 'when' she begins to display these traits.

I said my puppy will be thoroughly socialized and trained, and that I think it's reasonable to expect her not to bite people. Call me crazy!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Where do people get these ideas about German Shepherds. Apart from our current dog who does have a medical problem I think they're very gentle, family dogs - or we've just been very lucky. I'd like to think it's because they've all been treated and trained well.

When I met my partner he had an 11 year GSD bitch (Gemma) who doted on him. She had very little contact with children or other animals, apart from the ones she met on walks. Within a year she was living with me, my partner, 3 cats, 2 young dogs and numerous children ranging in age from new born to 12 years. And Gemma loved it all. 
________
Sue


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I received a PM in response to this thread asking what business I have owning a German Shepherd if I don't think it's acceptable for dogs to bite people. 'Strong fighting instinct' was quoted to me from the breed standard, I was told these dogs are genetically human aggressive, and asked what I will do with my puppy 'when' she begins to display these traits.
> 
> I said my puppy will be thoroughly socialized and trained, and that I think it's reasonable to expect her not to bite people. Call me crazy!


GSD Breed Standard
Energetic and fun-loving, the breed is very fond of children once a relationship is established. He is a loyal family pet and a good guard dog, the ideal choice for many families. He requires regular exercise and grooming.The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

*I would just ignore the PM*


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

The SV standard is worded a little differently. There's a few translations online, most of them say this. (below) I've seen some that mention fight drive but can find them at the moment. 

The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian. 

Willingness to fight isn't the same as being aggressive towards humans. No idea why anyone would send you a PM like that but they're wrong.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

The one that was quoted to me was: " Furthermore the dog must be courageous, have a strong fighting instinct and possess firm nerves."

Anyway yeah, I would hope they are wrong! This is not an attack breed, wow.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

minerva_deluthe said:


> The one that was quoted to me was: " Furthermore the dog must be courageous, have a strong fighting instinct and possess firm nerves."
> 
> Anyway yeah, I would hope they are wrong! This is not an attack breed, wow.


I don't really disagree with the above quote, but I don't know why someone would feel a need to go to PM with that. 

Strong fighting instinct in the right scenario, anyway.

Some people do like to take it to PM to avoid getting in trouble posting things publicly. 

Don't worry abbbbouut it  Or, do as I do, and when they *attack* via PM, keep buggin' them back. 

Hi 3toys.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Haha good strategy! I basically did that, the bugging back, because I was kind of offended.

I don't disagree wiht the description quoted, but I hardly think it means I can expect human aggression from my dog!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I was told these dogs are genetically human aggressive, and asked what I will do with my puppy 'when' she begins to display these traits.


Someone's seriously messed up. They are not "genetically human aggressive" so ignore the comment. 
There's a difference between "aloof" and "human aggressive by genetics"


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

minerva_deluthe said:


> Haha good strategy! I basically did that, the bugging back, because I was kind of offended.
> 
> I don't disagree wiht the description quoted, but I hardly think it means I can expect human aggression from my dog!


"Expect" might be strong, but be ready might be better.

Not to get all serious on you, but it can be a thing with this breed. Just spend time on the Aggression forum and you'll see it.

These dogs are protective and often very territorial. Mine are only half-breeds, but they display these things. It takes work. They do love humans, but at first, when a strange human approaches the yard, they're not wanting to lick their faces off. Not until that person gets inside and the dogs are told all is well. Until then, they're on high alert and will scare people.

As far as the bugging back, I did so because I was called a bunch of names and such.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

My landlord actually did not want me to get a GSD for that reason. He had GSDs and they were very territorial, apparently.

So I got a 3/4 GSD and told him it's a GSD/Lab cross. Which, it is.  He is fine with the pup.

But yeah to be honest territoriality kind of freaks me a little. Honestly part of the reason I got the dog was to have a felt sense of security, so in a way it's a good thing. But I definitely dont want territorial aggression beyond alert barking.

We also live in a very shared living space - we have a townhouse, there are only a few other townhouses, and a shared yard. So far the puppy is getting very used to lots of neighbours being in the yard, and another dog as well (they play together a lot which is nice). 

I will be doing training and reading my face off, but I definitely expect that she is not going to be biting anyone!!!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

minerva_deluthe said:


> My landlord actually did not want me to get a GSD for that reason. He had GSDs and they were very territorial, apparently.
> 
> So I got a 3/4 GSD and told him it's a GSD/Lab cross. Which, it is.  He is fine with the pup.
> 
> ...


I don't automatically see territorialism as a bad thing. It is only bad when it is not controlled. The dog should be able to be called off. The dog doesn't have to love the person entering, but should be able to calm down and leave them alone. If the person enters the property (whether yard or home) and the dog continues to show any aggressive behaviors, that's where I think a person has a problem that'll require more work. From what I've read here, some are able to train/work that out fine. Others must just isolate the dog.

I've been lucky. I don't crate my dogs away with visitors. I don't have a lot of visitors, but the ones I do have are dog savvy types and/or willing to help me with the initial nutball reactions of the boys. That's been a real Godsend. 

Time will tell, you'll learn your puppy, but knowing the possibilities just puts you in a better place to address any questionable issues nice and quick. I do believe the key is in addressing things early. You're in the right place in the case things do come up.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

What I've always liked about GSDs, or at least the ones we've owned is that they have discernment. 
Maybe we just trained them that way - to not be afraid of people at the door, to welcome them and not bite them. I don't mean they fawn all over the visitors, but they sure don't bark/growl. Why should they? The mail person or UPS guy didn't bring us a bomb or attempt to stab us!

So I've come to know and rely on this breed for home protection, they are a great deterrent, and I'll likely always have one here at our home.

But they do need to be raised or trained to accept visitors politely and without aggression. 
That can be taught...and if your dog isn't able to be taught, at least be managed.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> What I've always liked about GSDs, or at least the ones we've owned is that they have discernment.
> Maybe we just trained them that way - to not be afraid of people at the door, to welcome them and not bite them. I don't mean they fawn all over the visitors, but they sure don't bark/growl. Why should they? The mail person or UPS guy didn't bring us a bomb or attempt to stab us!
> 
> So I've come to know and rely on this breed for home protection, they are a great deterrent, and I'll likely always have one here at our home.
> ...


At what age do you think the level of discernment will remain the same(or start to give an idea what the level of their discernment is or will be)?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I received a PM in response to this thread asking what business I have owning a German Shepherd if I don't think it's acceptable for dogs to bite people. 'Strong fighting instinct' was quoted to me from the breed standard, I was told these dogs are genetically human aggressive, and asked what I will do with my puppy 'when' she begins to display these traits.
> 
> I said my puppy will be thoroughly socialized and trained, and that I think it's reasonable to expect her not to bite people. Call me crazy!


 What lines does your pup come from? Chances are you don't even have to worry about any 'strong fighting instinct'. You place too much faith into socialzing and training, though.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> What lines does your pup come from? Chances are you don't even have to worry about any 'strong fighting instinct'. You place too much faith into socialzing and training, though.


I can understand that lines and nerves can play into the role of how a dog turns out, but I have seen so many situations where brother/brother, sister/sister or brother/sister are completely different temperaments and I think the socialization and training do help somewhat.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I think socialization and training makes a tremendous difference. No I don't think it's everything, but I don't think it's a negligible factor either. I posted on another thread, I believe, that I recently met three Australian Shepherds. Two were adopted at 11 weeks, the last at 15 weeks, from a kennel where they were kept separately from the family and had very little socialization. They were ALL afraid of my kids, the dogs we had with us, and us as adults too. But the one who was adopted at 15 weeks was by far the most terrified. These were 7 months old pups.

My dog is actually a cross, she is mostly Shepherd but has some Lab in her. I do not know what 'lines' she is from but I met the parents and the father did alert barking but both were remarkably friendly. I even approached the father in his kennel on my own, after having been introduced an hour before, and though he alert barked, he became friendly as I approached, so much so that I was able to put my hand to him through the kennel and he responded with licking. So I feel good about the likelihood that my dog genetically will be even tempered, and she demonstrates friendliness so far. She will be extremely, unbelievably well socialized... I'm not sure what that says about my life! LOL. But kids, dogs, cats, all sorts of strange and random occurrances... she has seen it all and does not bat an eye.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

when my pup was 4 months my husband left himoutof crate one night. I work till 9 or so at night. i was shocked when i had key in the door to hear the pup barking at me. And when i walked in my house which was completley dark before i could find light switch he bit me through my jeans and left good bruise on my butt cheek.  when i finaly got light on and after me screamin ouch he knew it was me.I petted him and gave him a treat. He did what he was suppose to do..and it was pretty funny.He is very socialized puppy. He goes to work with me somedays(a hair salon) is in puppy classes and we take daily walks to park and schools.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Every dog I own from a breeder or myself I have access to finding out on detail about the parents and siblings of course. No matter what home these dogs are raised in they all end of with small variations in their personalities, but overall are very consistent in what they are like. 
All of the puppies I sold are nearly identical in every way. They just have different names LOL. 


Everytime I get in touch with someone who owns a related dog to mine or one of my puppies they always surprise me how alike they are. When I get some of my puppies back to watch them while their owners go on vacation they are just like one of my own. 

Genetics have a huge role in what a dog is. It seems like the new people who are so big into socializing are convinced they can change what the genetics say a dog will be. 
It can only do so much.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

4TheDawgies said:


> Every dog I own from a breeder or myself I have access to finding out on detail about the parents and siblings of course. No matter what home these dogs are raised in they all end of with small variations in their personalities, but overall are very consistent in what they are like.
> All of the puppies I sold are nearly identical in every way. They just have different names LOL.
> 
> 
> ...



Last summer I got a chance to meet my golden's sister and they were as different as night and day as far as I guess it would be personality...possibly temperament. She was shy, tail down, and did not want to be petted. I stood there for 5 minutes talking to them and she completely ignored me hiding behind her owner(she would have crawled into a hole if she could have), never warmed up(she went as far as she could from me to get around me to get back to the car). I learned in the conversation that the owners had some hardships, they couldn't afford puppy classes and from what I got from the conversation they didn't do much with her. Mine on the other hand is super out going and friendly, not shy in the least, he would never hide from anyone that wanted to pet him. I don't think I have ever seen him with his tail down. He did get lots of socialization and training and I believe at the moment I met these people I decided I would always take any dog I got to school and any place else I could to get socialized. I felt sorry for my dog's sister


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

That is great! You are doing a wornderful job socializing and your puppy's temperament is a perfect fit for you. Some puppies are a handful, and some a breeze to raise. 

Socialization makes a tremendous difference if the dog's nerves are not rock solid enough to start with, and he or she can use some help. Your three aussies example is a perfect illustration.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> That is great! You are doing a wornderful job socializing and your puppy's temperament is a perfect fit for you. Some puppies are a handful, and some a breeze to raise.
> 
> Socialization makes a tremendous difference if the dog's nerves are not rock solid enough to start with, and he or she can use some help. Your three aussies example is a perfect illustration.


You can take any breed, with the best and not so best of nerves and see a difference between dogs if they are socialized or not socialized. If the dog has poor nerves it has poor nerves, but to say socialization only makes a tremendous difference if the dogs nerves are not rock solid is just an opinion. Even dogs with the best of nerves need socialization.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

llombardo said:


> At what age do you think the level of discernment will remain the same(or start to give an idea what the level of their discernment is or will be)?


I think we have to make sure our puppies (if we got them that young) are exposed to as many situations as possible.

It's like I mentioned in another thread, a bank teller does not learn to spot counterfeit money, they learn it by learning real money, so they know the phony when they see it.

In that manner, dogs need to learn and become accustomed to plenty of good, healthy, happy situations to be able to spot the bad situations when they see it.

I used to have my GSD come to me, and sit at my feet and look at me when he was barking at non-threats. 
If I don't do that, and if I'm more concerned with the situation at hand, my dog would know trouble may be afoot.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Misty, I had the dog that was socialized, trained, exposed to everything the whole nine yards, and she did tuck her tail and lunge at strangers. The quality of a breeder matters, and good breeders strive for uniformity in their litters. Sometimes even the best breeders get a weak nerved pup, and all socializing and training in the world would not fix this. 

I am actually glad my current dog is not my first dog otherwise I would start believing that I am some kind of a dog guru and awesome trainer etc. He is so tuned to me, simply reads my mind, he's so easy to live with and a joy to train. I just know better to give myself credit for his temperament, he's like that because of the right genetics. I count my blessings and always remember to thank his breeder


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I think we have to make sure our puppies (if we got them that young) are exposed to as many situations as possible.
> 
> It's like I mentioned in another thread, a bank teller does not learn to spot counterfeit money, they learn it by learning real money, so they know the phony when they see it.
> 
> ...


I was just wondering because mine at almost 10 months shows good signs right now and I'm hoping she stays just the way she is


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

llombardo said:


> ...but to say socialization only makes a tremendous difference if the dogs nerves are not rock solid is just an opinion. Even dogs with the best of nerves need socialization.


 I agree, it's just my opinion, I don't push it on anyone here. Since one can't be sure if the puppy has good nerves or not so good, socialization is helpful. For a dog with the best of nerves socialization is not crucial. Again, just my very personal opinion, to make it clear.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I think genetics matters a lot. I just think socialization and training matter a lot too. Particularly socialization.

My parents had two Old English Sheepdogs when I was growing up. The second developed fear aggression and bit me and a neighbour (improved with re-training). My parents' discipline methods were to blame but they were the same idiots with their first Sheepdog, who had an incredible temperament and would even walk my younger brother and I to the bus, and then turn and return home on her own (suburban neighbourhood, no huge streets to cross). The same owners report dogs with widely varying temperaments, and if it were all about socialization, that would not be the case.

On the other hand though, I have read a ton about socialization and the critical 'window' of 8-12 weeks since I got my pup, and I believe in the importance of it very much. The information comes from well respected authorities, and I think it just makes sense that dogs develop a sense of what is 'safe' and what to fear during puppyhood. Their behaviour from that point out, while of course it can always be adjusted to a certain (large) extent with ongoing socialization and training, is affected forevermore by what they learned in that window of time during early puppyhood. I was initially very concerned about parvo, but found statements about how more dogs die from lack of socialization than from parvo, and a statement from I believe an association of veterinary behaviourists? (read it a few weeks ago, it's easily google-able though I'm sure) encouraging socialization in safe contexts during the period of 8-12 weeks of age.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't know as I'd place an age, or attempt to guess an age in which it all clicked.

If you're like us, you rarely have frightening events at our house, intruders, etc.
So I never worried about seeing my dog "in action", it just occurred and I never worried about it, or tried to figure out what age he'd be, etc.

So many folks get on here upset that their dogs love strangers. 
It is my opinion that you want them to love strangers! Going back to "if there's ever a threat, your dog will know it", when they can understand that we let people into our homes, we, as the leader, choose to open the door to someone, that someone is generally _not a threat. _

So if a threat appeared at our door, they'd know we were not happy about the threat and they'd bark or whatever, they'd help deter the situation.

In fact, 10-11 yrs. ago, we rescued a younger adult GSD, our first GSD together. 
That dog had neurosis up the ying yang. But was stable, too, if that makes sense? His neurosis had to do with being dumped, we feel, as he'd panic if he was off our property and we were playing with the dogs, he'd think we were going to drive away without him.

Anyway that's not the story, LOL what happened was we had someone come to do some home repairs we needed done. One of the repairs was in the master bath, off our bedroom. 
And Hunter tolerated the stranger in the home just fine. Watchful but not aggressive, or anything of the sort.
However, the worker then headed off to our bedroom and Hunter just started barking and growling at this guy.

He'd accepted people in the home, because we did that, but the person did something other houseguests did not do. The guy started off towards our bedroom and Hunter "knew" that was not normal, typical behavior for a visitor to our home, so he was going to defend our home from this guy.

I just leashed him up and held the leash and told him (the dog) it was okay, and he stayed with me for the duration of the repairs.

Anyway - a dog who acts like that just because someone came over to the house, is a problem, but a dog who has learned to feed off of the human's energy and accept people coming and going, that's wonderful. Then, when someone does something out of the ordinary, makes you upset, or tries to take your TV, that's not going to fly with this dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I think genetics matters a lot. I just think socialization and training matter a lot too. Particularly socialization.
> 
> My parents had two Old English Sheepdogs when I was growing up. The second developed fear aggression and bit me and a neighbour (improved with re-training). My parents' discipline methods were to blame but they were the same idiots with their first Sheepdog, who had an incredible temperament and would even walk my younger brother and I to the bus, and then turn and return home on her own (suburban neighbourhood, no huge streets to cross). The same owners report dogs with widely varying temperaments, and if it were all about socialization, that would not be the case.
> 
> On the other hand though, I have read a ton about socialization and the critical 'window' of 8-12 weeks since I got my pup, and I believe in the importance of it very much. The information comes from well respected authorities, and I think it just makes sense that dogs develop a sense of what is 'safe' and what to fear during puppyhood. Their behaviour from that point out, while of course it can always be adjusted to a certain (large) extent with ongoing socialization and training, is affected forevermore by what they learned in that window of time during early puppyhood. I was initially very concerned about parvo, but found statements about how more dogs die from lack of socialization than from parvo, and a statement from I believe an association of veterinary behaviourists? (read it a few weeks ago, it's easily google-able though I'm sure) encouraging socialization in safe contexts during the period of 8-12 weeks of age.


I've read the same thing about the socialization period, BUT I didn't get mine until she was 12 weeks. I have to say that she is turning out great, but I didn't waste any time when I got her either. She did wonderful in school, loves people and all other animals...working on her jumping on us when we come home..she gets so excited to see us. We are about 85% there with her. I honestly can't wait to get another one. I know that I have to wait about another year or so, but its so hard..I want a little boy


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

rooandtree said:


> when my pup was 4 months my husband left himoutof crate one night. I work till 9 or so at night. i was shocked when i had key in the door to hear the pup barking at me. And when i walked in my house which was completley dark before i could find light switch he bit me through my jeans and left good bruise on my butt cheek.  when i finaly got light on and after me screamin ouch he knew it was me.I petted him and gave him a treat. He did what he was suppose to do..and it was pretty funny.He is very socialized puppy. He goes to work with me somedays(a hair salon) is in puppy classes and we take daily walks to park and schools.


Haha that's hilarious! Territoriality will be new for me. Already she barks when people come around. 



llombardo said:


> I've read the same thing about the socialization period, BUT I didn't get mine until she was 12 weeks. I have to say that she is turning out great, but I didn't waste any time when I got her either. She did wonderful in school, loves people and all other animals...working on her jumping on us when we come home..she gets so excited to see us. We are about 85% there with her. I honestly can't wait to get another one. I know that I have to wait about another year or so, but its so hard..I want a little boy


Ah that's great. Maybe the breeder socialized her during that time? The dogs I was mentioning who were fearful were kept away from people and very under-socialized. 

I want another one too but I'm sticking to one given our living situation. We borrow the neighbour's old dog a lot - company for her and keeps our puppy busy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> He'd accepted people in the home
> Anyway - a dog who acts like that just because someone came over to the house, is a problem, but a dog who has learned to feed off of the human's energy and accept people coming and going, that's wonderful. Then, when someone does something out of the ordinary, makes you upset, or tries to take your TV, that's not going to fly with this dog.



When we had the murder-suicide happen with our neighbors, the police were in and out for days. The dogs didn't bark and let them do their job. When they came to us for our statement, the dogs had no problem with them being in the house. The police officer actually played with them and they laid down next to him


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> Ah that's great. Maybe the breeder socialized her during that time? The dogs I was mentioning who were fearful were kept away from people and very under-socialized.
> 
> I want another one too but I'm sticking to one given our living situation. We borrow the neighbour's old dog a lot - company for her and keeps our puppy busy.


Well, I got her from the people that got her originally and she was living outside, they told me that she needed more room. I don't think she was in the best situation. She had worms and an ear infection when she came to me. She was also confused that outside was for potty That took a long time to change, but she's good now and I couldn't be happier with her...I sent them a picture last week and thanked them. Their loss, my gain. I do have two other dogs and they completely have everything to do with the kind of dog she has turned into. All have very good dispositions, I eventually will go for a fourth and hopefully have the same luck


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Oh I won't deny that socialization will improve a lot of things on a dog. I am huge on doing it with my puppies. And yes if you keep a dog locked up in a house it's whole life it will be a really strange, shy, and fearful dog. If a dog has solid nerves, It will always have solid nerves. If a dog has a weak temperament it will always have a weak temperament. You can cover it up through socialization and training but if something sets it off the dog will revert back to its original state. If its a weak nerved, weak temperament, low threshold dog then the dog will appear normal to some but will be a mess a lot of the time and quickly revert back to that if the right thing sets it off. That's what I'm getting at


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