# Adoption vs breeder



## JnMD819 (Apr 30, 2019)

Hello! 

Was hoping for some expert advice regarding current situation: 

Background: I lost my beloved male Working/Show line American GSD in 2008 after 12 happy years with him, and have been unable to get another dog due to being in medical school, residency, having 2 babies, living in pet unfriendly apartment in NYC. I've felt a massive void since I lost him and I would like to get another dog. For me, there is no other breed, I am a GSD owner for life. I bought my dog from a breeder in PA at 8 weeks, trained him, did IPO with him biweekly, agility, tracking and it is my passion (second to medicine). I would say that I am a confident owner, admittedly, maybe a little rusty at this point. I was able to navigate well with a 135lb-er who had severe thunderstorm anxiety with flight response and train/medicate accordingly. (who knew that was genetic???)

Situation now: My kids are almost 6 and 2.5, we lost our 17 year old cat last year and have a female rabbit (worst idea ever). My schedule at this is doable for properly including a dog into our family. By that I mean IPO training and being a 3rd child  

My husband and I are at odds. I believe that knowing where your dog came from, meeting parents if possible and having full available pedigree is very important, especially with GSD temperament and personalities having small children in the house. I also believe that its important to shape the personality of the dog from the beginning and creating a long lasting bond. 

I would like to find a good breeder and have considered getting in touch with my old one, (who's website I have been lurking around for years). I am very hesitant to adopt an adult GSD with small, although dog respectful children. I have also had a traumatic experience with an adopted a 1 year old Weimaraner that I had to surrender within 3 weeks. 
My husband on the other hand, has never owned a dog, and is adamantly against buying from breeders, he wants to adopt any dog but is respectful of my breed choice. 

Are there any valid arguments for/against this path? Perhaps a suggestion? 
What is the average price for a puppy at this time? 

Our perfect dog would be medium/large size (my boy was 28" and 135lbs), calm demeanor, good with small children, will have to become comfortable with traveling (my husband is an international banker). 
Should I be looking for show lines? Working lines? Need help deciding this as well.
Anything else I need to consider? 

Thank you!


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Based on your preferences, goals and situation I'd go 100% for a pup from a breeder you like. I have given up on rescues for a long time.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

The first thing you have to do is have you and your husband on the same page. Maybe educate him on the differences between a truly reputable breeder and backyard breeders /puppy mills. Point out that is everyone only did the "adopt don't shop" thing, you are basically signing up to extinguish the existence of pet dogs in oh..20 years. 

I have done my share of rescues. Some were train wrecks, some were best dogs ever, One cost me easily over 6k in vet bills, trainers, behaviorists for what in the end turned out to be not fixable. Another rescue I had never had a single issue, was super easy to train, and never needed the vet beyond routine care.

What are you getting for your money when you buy a well bred GSD? If it is really well bred? (best to check with experienced people..maybe here or at an IPO club before signing up with a breeder). Well, you get better odds in your favor for temperament, health especially genetic issues like HD and DM. You are not guaranteed these things (beyond the limited health guarantee the breeder will give), but you are guaranteed a lifetime of support from a caring and knowledgeable breeder. One who will always take the dog back if there are serious issues that you can't deal with.

I have 2 working lines (23 months and 10 weeks old) and 3 little kids (12, 10, and 7). With proper training and breeder knowledge/support things are great. You just have to tell the breeder your lifestyle, your expectations from the dog. A good breeder will match you to the best of their prediction and will not place a pup if they think it wont be a good fit for that particular pup.

What do you get with a rescue? Well, obviously that warm fuzzy feeling. It can be addicting. If you go to a reputable rescue (they need to be vetted just as much as breeders) odds are they foster before placing. So you will have someone who can tell you how they are in a home. If they are good with kids, cats, etc. Any issues to watch out for. What they can't tell you is if a large breed will develop HD or other breed issues like DM. They also can't tell you if the dog can do work or sport (if you are still interested in that). Fosters are usually family homes only. Like a good breeder, a good rescue will always take a dog back. However, unlike a breeder they will re advertise the dog for placement again and then you will just have to avert your eyes from the 10k comments from people who will say you are horrible for giving him back even though they arent stepping up to take him either lol 

The only donts I would say is don't use a breeder that doesn't health test their dogs and really they should work their dogs in some type of fashion. Don't choose a breeder based on what they say about their dogs alone..research the progeny. Post a pedigree here for input, hang around your most local IGP club and ask. If you just post a location here, you WILL get leads on great breeders.

The other don't I would say, and this is just me...because you have kids ...don't go to a city or county shelter and leave with a dog that was "assessed for temper" by their staff. Especially larger strong dogs. A lot of times they are there 3 weeks before getting adopted out and nobody truly knows what they are made of until they get into a home and decompress. Their staff isn't always as knowledgeable as they present on paper. Sticking a rubber hand near their bowl and using a toddler sized doll walking around does not count as testing for resource guarding or the "good with kids" badge. Look up 3 week shutdown period from dogs. Going to a rescue that fosters lessens the chances you will see a drastic change in a dog that lives in a shelter and now has a home. 

Good luck, hope you and your husband find a common ground you are both happy with! And sorry about the loss of your other beloved pets. We all know what a hole in the heart that leaves <3


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I don't want to over-generalize, but you may have difficulty finding a GSD-rescue who will adopt to familes who have young children. If you're interested in IPO I believe that is a valid reason to choose a breeder. HOWEVER, I would choose a good rescue over a bad or questionable breeder. If you go with a breeder, I would choose one who works/trains/titles their dogs, who understands their lines, health tests their breeding stock, and who will help you pick the right puppy for your household, particularly since you have small children.

If you start with a puppy, you may find there are times when you have to (or simply want to) keep the pup and your children seperate. GSDs can be very rambunctious and bitey (during the teething stage). They aren't called landsharks for nothing. Sometimes breeders will have an older puppy or a young dog available, and that can be an option as well. 

As far as determining what line is best for you, much depends on your goals and your personal preferences. If you want to compete in IPO, the usual advice is to choose a working line. Though any line can be a healthy and stable family companion. My West German showline (WGSL), Asher, is a wonderful family dog, and were my circumstances different, he could accomplish much more. We have two children (an almost four-year-old and a two-year-old), and we have never had any problems integrating children/dogs. He is very stable at home and in public, and I can easily walk him with one hand while pushing a double stroller in the other. 

Since you want to participate in a protection sport, I would find some local clubs and attend some of their events or training sessions. That way you can see some dogs in person, determine what you like, and perhaps find a breeder. I haven't priced puppies in a few years, but I would expect to pay somewhere around $2000-$3000, with some working lines on the lower side of that range and the WGSL on the upper end. I've never priced American showlines (ASL), so I can't comment on them. 

Best of luck in your search. Let us know what you decide.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

There's a difference between adoption out of a shelter or kennel-based rescue, and adoption from a foster home. Some good breed rescues have foster homes with young kids -- they observe the dogs around kids for weeks before adopting them out to homes with kids, and they tell homes with kids that they only will match them with dogs known to be good with kids because someone has lived with them with kids. 


Being careful about kid-safe dogs makes a lot of adopters with kids mad -- which defies logic, but it's just ignorance. They want to choose from any dog listed with the rescue, and get upset when told "no, that one wasn't fostered with kids or exposed to them through social visits while fostered, so we have no good information about them being safe with kids -- we don't want to risk putting your kids in a situation where we can't be sure the dog will be great with them." They also get mad when told, "no, we don't match puppies with toddlers because normal puppies are biting machines that view toddlers as the best squeaky toys."


We've literally NEVER had a placement in a home with toddlers work out with a very young dog with our rescue -- they always came back because people underestimated how unhappy the toddlers would be and how constant a puppy's mouthing can be (it's like having another young kid to supervise!). If you try to adopt and have rescues resist putting a young dog with you...that's why. Hard experience. We just got tired of the returns from people who swore they had the experience, knew what they were getting into, and understood puppy land-sharking -- so we stopped taking the chance and now put puppies in homes with older, dog savvy kids who can help with redirection because they can understand what's going on.


When we have a good home with toddlers, we match with a bomb-proof, easy going adult that has shown us it really LIKES kids in the foster home. They get a dog that's done with mouthing, doesn't jump on little people and knock them over, with some impulse control when kids start yelling and running around. People who listen to us end up really happy -- often telling us it's the greatest dog they've ever owned. OTOH, we've had quite a few who got mad at us, and bought a puppy anyway, and then contacted us sheepishly 6-12 months later asking us to take it off their hands because they are miserable.


You may be one of the few who can manage a puppy and toddlers. Think carefully about your medical practice commitment and your spouse's travel/work schedule -- family time, dog training and exercise time, and how much time you can REALLY commit to raising a puppy. If it's not realistic, a 3-5 y.o. bomb-proof, kid-loving adult dog that's already house-trained with some basic OB could be a lot less stressful. If you need to know the lines to feel comfortable, maybe see if your past breeder has a retired breeding female they need to find a home for and give a slightly older dog a happy retirement home.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I had a rescue that was wonderful with my then toddler daughter...but it isn't an exact science. Your hubby, who has never had a dog, might have a little trouble with the mouthiness of a pup. You could find a middle ground and research breeders who retire their gals to family homes. That way you can get a well bred mature dog. In a few years, when your sweetheart is wise in the ways of GSDs you can consider a pup.

IPO is great but it is very time consuming with kids. If you chose a sport like Nosework or Man-trailing the kids can help you with it. Not to say that IPO can't be family friendly if you find a great club.


----------



## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

I hate to suggest this but with your current place in life and your husband never having owned a dog do you think that a GSD is the right choice for you at this time? No offense intended but maybe something to consider. I had great luck with adopting 3 adult rescue GSD's but I was just lucky. Since then I have chosen my pups directly from the breeder. Good luck in whatever you decide.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

It's definitely personal preference, along with what you want/need in a dog. A reputable breeder may be best for your situation.

I adopted a 2 year old shelter GSD, when my kids were 10, 6, and 2. My 2 year old had a birth defect that caused him to be small and have mobility issues. My shelter GSD was awesome with the kids. She was especially considerate of the little one and took pains to ensure she never knocked him over.

You would probably wait a long time to get a puppy from a rescue, if you decided to go that route. There aren't that many puppies, so any puppy will get a ton of applications. I currently have a GSD mix from an out of state shelter. She was 8 weeks old, when I adopted her. She is about 75% GSD. She is a sweetheart and loves kids.

Best of luck, on whatever you decide. Please keep us posted.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

JnMD819 said:


> My husband on the other hand, has never owned a dog, and is adamantly against buying from breeders, he wants to adopt any dog but is respectful of my breed choice.





Here's my rationalization and logic regarding that opinion.......getting your dog from a quality breeder and giving it a wonderful life with all the upfront due diligence performed....... and then following through with ALL the essential requirements the breed thrives in......not just talking dog food......will ultimately keep your dog from ever becoming a dog which needs to be rescued at a later date.


Those that adopt and rescue dogs have my utmost respect.......but in the interests of procuring a proper GSD which will fit your situation......I'd go with your highest percentage odds of finding the "right" dog so you never have to rehome your first choice.




SuperG


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I do also like to get a pup especially a breed that is large and powerful and known to have aggression from a reputable breeder with young kids. I was tempted to get an adult trained dog since our first shepherd was trained but first I still feel safest with raising a pup and second the expense of a trained dog is quite high these days. Raising a pup is the best way to learn all about the dog in my opinion. All their quirks all their strengths. I’m not a real puppy person but having young kids it made me become one. It’s also a gift to watch the family grow together. I also like dogs who have a deep bond with me but also capable of having a nice bond with other members of the family. Find a reputable breeder meet the dogs find something that fits schedule you will enjoy doing with your dog and fits your families needs and have fun searching!


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

You've followed the breeder of your earlier dog for several years. I'd seriously consider talking/visiting them. If you want an IPO/IGP/Schutzhund dog, they might be a good source overall. 



On the other hand, I've done fine with rescues and fine with pups -- even a pup from a hobby breeder. The deal with a good rescue is that usually you can return the dog if it isn't working out often without fearing that you are sentencing the dog to death.


(OK so this is no help at all....)


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes if you were happy with your breeder why not check out them out you may find a pup that is a relative of your past dog that will be pretty special!


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

An adult dog from a reputable rescue that has their dogs in foster homes for a minimum of three or four weeks would give you a great idea of what you are getting. When I was active fostering my youngest son was a toddler and I was able to place dogs in homes with children with a high degree of confidence that the dog was good with kids (and other dogs and cats and horses...you get the idea). Or I was able to say with a high degree of confidence that the dog needed a home with older kids or no kids at all. You might have to wait for the right dog because a good rescue will not place a dog into the first home that shows interest. They want the placement to last. 



Going to a reputable breeder will give you an idea of what you're getting. They will know their dogs and what they produce. You might have to wait for the right puppy because the good breeders won't place their puppies in the first home that shows up with cash. The good breeder wants their puppy in the right home.


Research some rescues and breeders. Talk to people. Then decide what works best for your needs. Either route can work out really well, you just need to do your homework and be patient.
Sheilah


----------



## mkculs (Jan 24, 2019)

Before you even consider a puppy, take your kids to meet some from ages 8 weeks to at least 6 months and see how they do. I was looking at pups when my kids were 4 and 8 and quickly discovered they could not handle the jumping, scratching, mouthing, etc. I did not want to police my pup for puppy-like behaviors around my kids---not fair to either the dog or the kids. I ended up taking a 1.5 year old female from a breeder who had tried her at shows and found she wasn't showing well. Amazing family dog--not a GSD, but I suspect any dog past the rambunctious puppy stage, well bred, trained in basic obedience and good house manners, and raised with kids (my breeder's kids handled pups from birth and were way more comfortable with them than my kids) will do very well for you needs.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you are right to want a puppy from a breeder, especially since you want to do IPO with your dog, you have small children, and temperament is genetic. 

I also think you need to get your husband a lobotomy before getting a puppy from a breeder. He's been brain-washed by the Animal Rights movement and until he comes to his senses, getting a dog from a breeder is going to be really dicey. 

If he isn't on board with getting the pup from a breeder, he can take it out on you and/or the dog if you go ahead with it. Stupid shtuff like, "ok dog, you better poop golden nuggets, since you come from royal stock." People can be mean and rude and it won't be lost on the dog. No, the dog will not understand the words themselves, but the dog will understand the underlying animosity. 

So you need to talk to your husband. You need to find out why he feels the way he does, and you need to be able to counter (not necessarily argue) his points. You need to have points of your own about what good breeding practices does, and how good breeders ensure that we have excellent examples of the breed that we are choosing. That good breeders ensure that their dogs do not land in shelters, and take them back if it becomes necessary. That we will not have pet dogs is the AR agenda plays out. And so much more. 

Being single = no kids  Lots of dogs  no money 
Being married = someone always standing in the way of every decision. 

But I do agree you have to be on the same page.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JnMD819 said:


> My husband on the other hand, has never owned a dog, and is *adamantly against buying from breeders, he wants to adopt any dog* but is respectful of my breed choice.


FWIW, all dogs come from a breeder. Your choice of reputable breeder vs adopt boils down to which type of breeder you choose to support.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Except for all those street dogs and litters being imported in from other countries. A guy I know adopted a dog from a stray street dog littler in Kuwait. Looks like a Lurcher of some description. I try not to judge (because judging someone for WHERE they rescued from sounds too close to the Adopt Dont Shop crowd...but...)we have so many of our own shelter dogs here...and there is documentation of overseas strays dogs having strains of diseases and new diseases we dont usually see stateside.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Where I live, we are experiencing a massive shortage of adoptable dogs and have been for years. Expect to pay $1000. plus on Craig's List for a small mixed breed dog and don't ask to see the parents. I think it is awful that so many adoptable dogs die in southern shelters and elsewhere when there are homes waiting for them. 

Four of my dogs are imported. I would not call their breeders less than reputable but I would venture to say that they probably run the same risk of bringing strains of diseases here as any other dog brought in from their respective areas.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I think dogs imported from reputable breeders aren't contributing. I was reading an article about Middle East street dogs that brought a virulent new strain of distemper in. And they were not quarantined. RIGHT to fosters in homes, in towns. I agree about the south too. And my are they HW positive at a high rate  I helped transport a black GSD from down there who all the evaluators said was special. Had to go the high kill method on him. Months of crate rest. But, they were right he was worth saving. Placed him with a Vet with a bad back...he was suppose to walk daily. He wasn't doing it. Until he got Brique (now Sarge).

Rescue can be a beautiful thing. But, like breeders it can be a disreputable thing. Litters bought at auction from puppy mills then send to a "rescue" who is selling an "abandoned" letter for 450 adoption fee each pup. It's a back door way to sell puppy mill dogs where puppy mill sales in pet stores aren't allowed.

Always make sure your source is reputable whether a breeder or a rescue.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CometDog said:


> I think dogs imported from reputable breeders aren't contributing. I was reading an article about Middle East street dogs that brought a virulent new strain of distemper in. And they were not quarantined. RIGHT to fosters in homes, in towns. I agree about the south too. And my are they HW positive at a high rate  I helped transport a black GSD from down there who all the evaluators said was special. Had to go the high kill method on him. Months of crate rest. But, they were right he was worth saving. Placed him with a Vet with a bad back...he was suppose to walk daily. He wasn't doing it. Until he got Brique (now Sarge).
> 
> Rescue can be a beautiful thing. But, like breeders it can be a disreputable thing. Litters bought at auction from puppy mills then send to a "rescue" who is selling an "abandoned" letter for 450 adoption fee each pup. It's a back door way to sell puppy mill dogs where puppy mill sales in pet stores aren't allowed.
> 
> Always make sure your source is reputable whether a breeder or a rescue.


I had my crew tested for everything under the sun last summer and they all came up clear for everything. The vet said they saw five cases of heartworm in the past year. Each and every dog that tested positive traveled throughout the country and down south with their owners.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have done both and I would be very cautious about adopting a rescued dog. In my own personal experience, which is much more limited than Magwart’s, people rarely surrender a good dog to a rescue or shelter that has been trained and socialized. Usually if someone must give up a beloved, trained family pet a friend or acquaintance steps up to take the dog. Your husband needs more information before making a decision. Send him here to post and he will get a lot of honest opinions. Dogs from good breeders usually go back to the breeder rather than to rescue.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CometDog said:


> Except for all those street dogs and litters being imported in from other countries. A guy I know adopted a dog from a stray street dog littler in Kuwait. Looks like a Lurcher of some description. I try not to judge (because judging someone for WHERE they rescued from sounds too close to the Adopt Dont Shop crowd...but...)we have so many of our own shelter dogs here...and there is documentation of overseas strays dogs having strains of diseases and new diseases we dont usually see stateside.


And more than any other dog, one of these dogs would be the last you would want to introduce as a family pet, particularly with children. 

If someone wants a GSD, then those GSDs need to be handled from day 1. Not a lot. Not enough to make the dam nervous. You want a dam who is confident and calm throughout the time she is with her litter. But you want those puppies to be familiar with human-handling. And you don't get that from street dogs. 

So if the dog from wherever you do get it from does not have a breeder, than you are setting yourself up for a lot of pain, and that is exactly what the AR people want. They want dogs to be separate but equal, that is, living on the streets, and forests, breeding at will and to whom they want, living in packs of their own choosing. Feral. That is what they believe in. Anything less means creatures being in some form of servitude to humans -- a fate worse than death. This is why they will take dogs from folks that want to give them up, or eve take dogs from fenced yards or off chains, and sometimes not even take them to the shelter, but murder them and throw them in dumpsters. This is why they will let dogs go that are at dog shows or poison them. 

Ah well, it is too late for this conversation.


----------

