# Failed CGC???



## dogluver (Apr 28, 2011)

My girl did great on all aspects of the CGC except the last one....staying with a stranger while I left the room. She stayed composed for 1.5 minutes then started pulling on the leash. She is very attached to me and always stays near me in public. She doesn't have fear issues, has never shown separation anxiety when left at home. 

She does have trouble staying focused when my trainer handles her because she constantly looks around for me. 

Is this really a bad thing? She is almost 2. Is she just a bit young to separate from me?

Any and all suggestions are welcome.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sure Ozzy would fail that part miserably. 

He wants to be with me, just me, only me, all the time. When I'm around and someone will command him to do something, he looks to me. Usually he blows them off completely, but he'll listen to anything I tell him the first time, almost before I'm finished giving the command. 

Personally, I like the fact he doesn't listen to strangers. I don't like other people commanding my dog to do things. I'll admit though, I do get a little laugh out of the people's frustrations when he doesn't listen to them.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

My dog did the same. She is 2.5.
She doesn't like being left with strangers.
I don't hold that against her, even though the CGC does.
I think it is an unnecessary part of the test because the rest tests
temperament and approachability. But that's just me.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I would have sworn to you that Kaiser would fail that part but he really surprised me and did well. This is a dog that has climbed through tiny windows to get to me. 

A good class that slowly desensitizes them to being left when you say it's okay will help a lot.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

gsdraven said:


> A good class that slowly desensitizes them to being left when you say it's okay will help a lot.


Yup, that's what we did in our class. Slowly built up the amount of time they were left each week for 6 weeks. The owner didn't come back unless the dog was calm. At the end of 6 weeks, all 8 dogs passed.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> I would have sworn to you that Kaiser would fail that part but he really surprised me and did well. This is a dog that has climbed through tiny windows to get to me.
> 
> A good class that slowly desensitizes them to being left when you say it's okay will help a lot.


Exactly
My class attempted that over 6 weeks to no avail.
It would have been good if I had someone to work with outside of class.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

That's the part I am worried about the most. Especially since I work agitated recals in schutzhund :/ I would not hold that against your dog. I honestly would rather it that way. I am my dogs handler NO one else.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

mycobraracr said:


> I honestly would rather it that way. I am my dogs handler NO one else.


Not the vet? Or the groomer? Or the person who works at the boarding kennel when you're called out of town unexpectedly and can't make other arrangements? Unfortunately there are times in a dog's life when he has to be left with someone who isn't his owner. 

I like being bonded to my dogs as much as any one, but-- and this is just my humble opinion-- a dog who can't be left with a groomer, veterinarian, etc without falling apart is not an example of good temperament. The dog doesn't have to be lovey-dovey and give them kisses, but they shouldn't fall to pieces either. 

I think that being left with a stranger is a crucial part of the CGC.


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## dogluver (Apr 28, 2011)

Ok, I feel better now. Only problem is, she has to pass the test to start therapy training...well at least to pass the therapy test. 

We never really worked on this in class. Although there were several shepherds in our sat group class, they were all so laid back.

Sooo..now trying to figure out what to do. She would be a great therapy dog. She has the temperament for it, and I have no intention of anyone handling her without me being present.

What to do???


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Not the vet? Or the groomer? Or the person who works at the boarding kennel when you're called out of town unexpectedly and can't make other arrangements? Unfortunately there are times in a dog's life when he has to be left with someone who isn't his owner.
> 
> I like being bonded to my dogs as much as any one, but-- and this is just my humble opinion-- a dog who can't be left with a groomer, veterinarian, etc without falling apart is not an example of good temperament. The dog doesn't have to be lovey-dovey and give them kisses, but they shouldn't fall to pieces either.
> 
> I think that being left with a stranger is a crucial part of the CGC.


I disagree.
My dog can be left with groomers, etc. She just doesn't like it and says so. Once I have been gone for a while she settles down. But in CGC she has to settle down IMMEDIATELY FOR 3 MINUTES. No complaints or tugging in my direction allowed. I am not bothered that she doesn't go easily into the hands of others. CGC literally means Canine Good Citizen and my dog is that. She is approachable and behaves well for all of the first nine tests. The separation test has nothing to do with being a good citizen and has everything to do with loyalty, which is a whole nuther thing.
__________________


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## dogluver (Apr 28, 2011)

have not had any problems with her at the vet or groomer.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Not the vet? Or the groomer? Or the person who works at the boarding kennel when you're called out of town unexpectedly and can't make other arrangements? Unfortunately there are times in a dog's life when he has to be left with someone who isn't his owner. True, and I have a couple people that can and will take care of my dog if I cant.
> 
> I like being bonded to my dogs as much as any one, but-- and this is just my humble opinion-- a dog who can't be left with a groomer, veterinarian, etc without falling apart is not an example of good temperament. The dog doesn't have to be lovey-dovey and give them kisses, but they shouldn't fall to pieces either. I can only speak for my dog here but, she doesn't fall to pieces as much as look for me. Once she realizes she can't find me she just lays down until I return (I have never been gone very long).
> 
> I think that being left with a stranger is a crucial part of the CGC.


 Like stated befor, I understand I might not always be able to take my dog on every trip or she might need to be left at the vet. However, a STRANGER is not who I would leave my dog with. I have fail safes in order for myself and my dog but a stranger is not an option for me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

dogluver said:


> My girl did great on all aspects of the CGC except the last one....staying with a stranger while I left the room. She stayed composed for 1.5 minutes then started pulling on the leash. She is very attached to me and always stays near me in public. She doesn't have fear issues, has never shown separation anxiety when left at home.
> 
> She does have trouble staying focused when my trainer handles her because she constantly looks around for me.
> 
> ...


Yes, the dog should be able to be separated from their owner for a few minutes w/o falling apart. Look for you and be really happy to see you, of course. but she/he should be able to be confident enough to go with a friendly stranger. You can train them to do this of course.

I would start with handing the leash to a friendly person after they have stood around you for a few minutes. Give the person their toy and/or treats to use and step away just a few feet at first. Then gradually work the distance up and eventually you go out of sight for small interval and work the time up as well.

First of course --- How is your pooch with strangers when you are there? If the dog is afraid this exercise is MUCH more difficult and one should start with someone that they know at least a little and like.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

PaddyD said:


> I disagree.
> My dog can be left with groomers, etc. She just doesn't like it and says so. Once I have been gone for a while she settles down. But in CGC she has to settle down IMMEDIATELY FOR 3 MINUTES. No complaints or tugging in my direction allowed.


Might want to go to a different evaluator, or have your instructor re-read the manual. That's not what the evaluator's handbook says. It says something to the effect that the dog can't appear over-anxious or whine continuously. I don't have it in front of me but I know for a fact it doesn't say no complaints or tugging allowed. I agree with you, that is over the top.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Might want to go to a different evaluator, or have your instructor re-read the manual. That's not what the evaluator's handbook says. It says something to the effect that the dog can't appear over-anxious or whine continuously. I don't have it in front of me but I know for a fact it doesn't say no complaints or tugging allowed. I agree with you, that is over the top.


Thanks. My dog would have whined continuously due to being over-anxious for the 3 minutes as well as tugged the tester to wherever I was. There was inadequate preparation. So be it. I just don't think that has anything to do with being a good citizen, but I am very obviously subjective.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I did not think my golden would pass this part of the test and he did well...he danced a little bit but overall he did good. Now my german shepherd is a different story..I don't think she is going to do well on that part of the test at all. I leave her with my son at training class and all she does in talk, cry, and look for me and thats not even with a stranger


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## dogluver (Apr 28, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Might want to go to a different evaluator, or have your instructor re-read the manual. That's not what the evaluator's handbook says. It says something to the effect that the dog can't appear over-anxious or whine continuously. I don't have it in front of me but I know for a fact it doesn't say no complaints or tugging allowed. I agree with you, that is over the top.


Please check the manual for me. I thought I read that the dog does not have to stay in a sit or any other command. But is not allowed to pull and appear anxious.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

"The dog does not have to stay in position but should not _continually_ bark, whine, or pace_ unnecessarily_, or show anything stronger than mild agitation or nervousness."

I read that to mean 1)mild agitation and nervousness are ok, and 2)a little barking, whining, or pacing is ok. Not _continuous_ barking or whining, or _unnecessary_ pacing.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I did not think my golden would pass this part of the test and he did well...he danced a little bit but overall he did good. Now my german shepherd is a different story..I don't think she is going to do well on that part of the test at all. I leave her with my son at training class and all she does in talk, cry, and look for me and thats not even with a stranger


 
Do you train your dog for this?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Emoore said:


> "The dog does not have to stay in position but should not _continually_ bark, whine, or pace_ unnecessarily_, or show anything stronger than mild agitation or nervousness."
> 
> I read that to mean 1)mild agitation and nervousness are ok, and 2)a little barking, whining, or pacing is ok. Not _continuous_ barking or whining, or _unnecessary_ pacing.


 
this yes! When we (myself and another student) were friendly strangers during a CGC test, the evaluators allowed the dog to whine for 15 seconds. If they continued past the 15 seconds, the clock had to be restarted, the owner had to come back in and start all over again. They only allow two resets so to speak. The ONE dog of the 7 in the class that had the problems was because the test was held in a place where during the first time left, the owner was told to walk out of the front door of the building (small pet store) and she freaked out. They reset and we tried it with the dog being left outside with a friendly stranger while the owner walked into the store for the 3 minutes. The dog did MUCH better. Best we can figure is the first time, the dog thought the owner was leaving her behind kinda like when you have to leave your dog at the groomer or the vets office but when we reset the clock and the owner went INSIDE instead, she knew he had to come back out so she was much more relaxed. Still a little unhappy with the situation but in the end she passed. (but barely).

One dog didnt even pass the test and shouldnt have even been allowed to take it because he is not approachable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Do you train your dog for this?


The golden went through four classes, eight months of training with the part of the goal being this test and the shepherd is in her second class, but I will have her do a couple more classes then the golden did before I even try the test on her. She will need it, since she definitely is more energetic then the golden.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The issue is anxiety, and it can sometimes be covered up with socialization and sometimes it can't. Depends on the severity, and how much is based in genetics and how much is based in lack of socialization. As some others have said, you can work on desensitizing her with consistent training...the process is long and sometimes slow because she is older and has gotten very comfortable with being dependent on you in public.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Having never taken the test before - a question. Can you put your dog in a stay, hand off to the stranger and then leave for the 3 minutes?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Can you put your dog in a stay, hand off to the stranger and then leave for the 3 minutes?


I have always found those dogs who did the best (and I tell the owners before I begin evaluations): put your dog in a down-stay or sit-stay while letting the dog see you hand the leash over to the stranger. Then calmly turn and walk away -- do not hesitate along the way and do not look back at the dog. 

Dogs do not have to stay in position to pass the test but it does help some. With the dog seeing the owner passing the leash it enforces to the dog that this is what the owner wants. 

Many dogs will lay down and just watch in the direction in which their owner disappeared. Some walk to the end of the leash and then either sit or lay down keeping watch for their owner's return. Some will come back to the evaluator, wag their tail a bit, and then just wait. 

If I see the dog beginning to become upset, I will softly tell them it is "OK" or if they look at me during this part I may tell them they are a "Good Boy/Girl". It is allowed for the evaluator to do this though some don't. We receive a monthly email newsletter and this was brought up as in real life a vet tech or groomer would not stand there rock still and not say anything to the dog. But, we should not pet the dog nor speak the whole time to the dog - just a soft encouragement once or twice is OK.

I have seen and heard some evaluators who overstep their directions from the AKC. Per those directions, during classwork the lessons can be above what is required in the CGC but then during the actual evaluations the testing itself must be in line with the testing requirements.

*A CGC is not an obedience test -- it is to evaluate if a pet dog has met basic guidelines to be safely taken out and about into the public and around other well-mannered dogs. *


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Having never taken the test before - a question. Can you put your dog in a stay, hand off to the stranger and then leave for the 3 minutes?


This is exactly how I have taught it (I have had three dogs take the test and pass). My 9 month old is going to take the test in July, so I have been practicing out of sight stays. So really its not an "I am going to leave you with someone moment" although they would both reluctantly listen, but its more of a "stay while I go out of sight, and I am tying your leash to this post (ie human). Neither of them whines or gets anxious when left with a stranger for short periods, but it has been discovered that if I go out of town for more than a day, my female will go into drive and not calm down for about 3 days. She just needs to be exercised for 3-5 hours a day and she is tolerable, which is not tolerable for our dogsitter...LOL

I do think all dogs should be conditioned to stay with another human and not be anxious, its hard because we spend so much time with them, and its not usual for them to be seperated from their pack. But in reality, it is better for the dog to be conditioned to these circumstances, so it is not so hard on them should the situation arise.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> That's the part I am worried about the most. Especially since I work agitated recals in schutzhund :/ I would not hold that against your dog. I honestly would rather it that way. I am my dogs handler NO one else.


I get what you're saying, but there have been times when I have had to have someone else hold Sasha while I go do something real fast, and she doesn't do well. She does better if I tell her stay. It's definitely something I can understand them having on the test. Part of "being a good canine citizen" should be not freaking out if your owner has to leave you with someone so they can go do something real fast. Not saying if your dog can't do it that you're a bad owner (heck Sasha doesn't usually do it very well. If she stays put there is generally a lot of crying), but it is something I think is handy for every good owner to work with one their dog.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

ILGHAUS said:


> I have always found those dogs who did the best (and I tell the owners before I begin evaluations): put your dog in a down-stay or sit-stay while letting the dog see you hand the leash over to the stranger. Then calmly turn and walk away -- do not hesitate along the way and do not look back at the dog.


Would it be best to work on a long stay as a prep for the test, making sure the dog is solid on a stay (with you in or out of sight) and then incorporate handing the leash off to others? If your dog is confident in the stay command (no worries, I'll be back) wouldn't that help a dog who might get nervous with you leaving it with a stranger? 

I guess what I'm thinking is that if your dog is confident in your command "Stay" then having a stranger next to it (even on a leash) shouldn't make too much difference.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Lilie said:


> Would it be best to work on a long stay as a prep for the test, making sure the dog is solid on a stay (with you in or out of sight) and then incorporate handing the leash off to others? ...
> 
> I guess what I'm thinking is that if your dog is confident in your command "Stay" then having a stranger next to it (even on a leash) shouldn't make too much difference.


Yes to all parts. Since the CGC requires 3 minutes a good goal to work on is a solid 5 min. stay while you are out of sight. These out of sight stays are great in so many ways. 

It might help for some folks to think of it as you did that you are leaving your dog in a stay and not as leaving your dog with a stranger. This is the same stay you may leave your dog in (example to run into a convenience store for milk or to pay for your gas) your car. A dog which may tend to become nervous just contained in a car may behave better if left with a job to do. That job is to sit stay. I always did it just as an obedience exercise. 

I've left my dogs with semi-strangers _to them but not to me_ while out and about. Maybe I had to use the restroom or want to purchase a food item and so would tell my dog to stay while handing the leash to someone I knew. I have done the same for others.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

It is not natural to leave my dog with strangers so I would expect some anxiety. 

I took a 6 week class when Benny was 18 months that ended with this CGC test. He also failed the 3 minute separation. I had practiced with him for several weeks on my own for 5 minutes and he did well, but he was not happy being left with the instructor who was also the evaluator. 
She had given Benny a very hard correction during one of the sessions, when my husband (who was not part of the class) had wandered off with his dog and Benny started barking at them to come back. 

On the test day this instructor/evaluator had brought her Rottie who was just coming out of heat and had her sitting about 10 feet away from the dogs being tested! 

Benny passes most of the test criteria in real life does but has a very strong drive to keep our family pack together. He is mostly bonded with me, but even if my husband, other family members including dogs, even the cats, wander away he will bark and get very intent on keeping his family close. I don't see this as a bad thing. I love it about him.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Debbieg said:


> It is *not natural to leave my dog with strangers* so I would expect some anxiety.
> 
> ....................................
> ......................


 
Do the vet people ever have to take him for treatment or do yours let you stay with him all the time they are treating him for anything?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I guess it may not be normal to leave them with strangers and my dogs may not enjoy it like my friend's Goldens. But my GSDs with good nerves do not exhibit anxiety during it. 
The dogs who have this anxiety, I work on stays with them but it is very gradual training that helps them gain confidence. Trying to push this training quickly can associate anxiety in the dog brain with the stay behavior and further muddy up the deal for the dog.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Do the vet people ever have to take him for treatment or do yours let you stay with him all the time they are treating him for anything?


I was actually quoting someone else who had posted earlier
but it didn't show

The vet usually let's me back there and when he had the retained testicle removed I was allowed to sit with him until he fell asleep 

There has been one occasion where the vet took the leash and he willingly went but kept looking back at me. 

He did growl once at the vet even when I was with him 
It was when she stuck the thermometer up his rear 
Glad that is not part of the CGC 

I gave him a calm firm no and he settled


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

My puppy will hand off to anyone under "normal" circumstances (vet, nail trimmer, friend while I run into a bathroom etc). I did a LOT of restrained recalls with him so when we do it in the context of a training class, he barks and lunges. Not his fault, I trained him this way. But, I do know it's not anxiety as he will go politely and calmly with others when I pass the leash off else-where. I think I'm going to just teach it as an obedience exercise (5 min out of sight down).


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I know a lot of dogs have trouble with that part of the test. I think treating it like a long stay may help some dogs, or just practicing walking away and coming back even.
My Rat Terrier mix would have never passed that part for sure. He had a thing about being left. I don't blame him, seeing as he was abandoned by his last owner.
If I gave someone the leash and walked away or even just moved away past where he could reach me, and as long as he could see me but not reach he would bark continuously until I came back. If I walked away and went out of sight he would generally stop barking, but as soon as I was in sight again on the way back, he'd bark until I reached him. I tried working on this but have you ever tried to out-wait a terrier? If I gave someone the leash and they walked him away from me, he was fine which meant we had no problem at the vet. We never left him at the groomer since he was short-haired so he didn't need any trimming and the groomer I used with my Golden usually let me stay while she groomed my Golden, and more often than not she'd just let me use her tub to wash the terrier while she was working on my Golden. 
My Golden and Bianca both had no problem with the supervised separation in the CGC though, but we'd done things like that before so I knew they'd be fine.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't think it's a bad thing. i think it's a training thing.



dogluver said:


> My girl did great on all aspects of the CGC except the last one....staying with a stranger while I left the room. She stayed composed for 1.5 minutes then started pulling on the leash. She is very attached to me and always stays near me in public. She doesn't have fear issues, has never shown separation anxiety when left at home.
> 
> She does have trouble staying focused when my trainer handles her because she constantly looks around for me.
> 
> ...


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## BlackCat (Sep 22, 2011)

When I tested Lobo for the first time in CGC, he failed, also. What got him wasn't the waiting with a friendly stranger, we never got that far in the test. He failed the greet and let someone else pet your dog part. He was too friendly, broke sit, and went up to the evaluator and licked her hand. :blush:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

BlackCat said:


> When I tested Lobo for the first time in CGC, he failed, also. What got him wasn't the waiting with a friendly stranger, we never got that far in the test. He failed the greet and let someone else pet your dog part. He was too friendly, broke sit, and went up to the evaluator and licked her hand. :blush:


Halo actually jumped on the evaluator! Oops.  She was young when we took the test, only about 9 months old, and she was still not that great about polite greetings which was one of the main reasons why we took the prep class. She did well with everyone in the class, but really, really wanted to kiss the evaluator, lol!

She didn't have any trouble with the separation, we were given the option to continue with the rest of the test, even though it didn't matter since she's flamed out on the first component and I opted to finish to see how she would do. I use a stay command, but I think I told her to wait since I hadn't trained an out of sight stay for that long yet and I didn't want her to break position after I'd given her a cue, and then said "I'll be back", which we do whenever we leave the house. 

The trainer who did the prep class said it's a good idea to overtrain each component, so even if it's not required that the dog hold a sit stay during the greeting, for example, train for that anyway. If you can train an out of sight down stay, there's no reason not to do that, even if it's not technically required in the test. 

And we were encouraged to train a "paw" command, rather than just having the dog be comfortable with their feet being handled. Halo has a great paw command that I've used a lot recently - she has some irritation between her pads and I have to wash her front feet with a special shampoo every day and put some ointment on her feet and then tape some socks on so she doesn't lick it off. When she jumps out of the tub I have her sit, say "gimme paw", and she slaps a foot in my hand so I can dry it off. When I'm done I say "other paw" and she offers me the other one. Again, not technically required, but overtrained is better than undertrained.


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## Missourigsds (Feb 23, 2012)

Glad I'm not the only one that had a challenge on this part of the test. Duke did great in our training sessions on all aspects but this one. 

His issue was slightly different. I could leave him for the three minutes and he was fine. He'd let out a whine or two but that was it.

The problem was when I came back into the room. He went crazy trying to get to me. He'd pull at the leash with all four legs going as fast as they could to get traction on the training room concrete floor.

I had to do a lot of work here at home. What I did was tie his leash to a post outside and walk out of his line of sight at the house. When I came back into sight he went crazy and I walked away. I'd only walk towards him if he was calm. It took many, many times to get the message across but he managed to get much better over time. My reward for his appropriate behavior was walking to be with him.

Good luck! I understand how frustrating it is to have your dog do all aspects of the CGC perfectly and have this piece be challenging. I'm sure with enough creative training you'll get there!


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