# German Shepherds of the 1950/60s



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Quarantine may be giving me time to rekindle my researching of GSDs. I just spent quite some time searching for posts on this but I think I may suck at searching, I got no results multiple times.

So here's the thing, I know that "old style" is a gimmicky term often for some funky looking fat dogs. That said researching and following pedigrees of dogs I like based only on stacked structure I keep getting taken back to dogs of the 1950/60s. I want to know more about these dogs I've been finding in terms of structure and how they move. I'm not having any luck find videos of them in motion. I also want to know what you guys think of them in terms of the breed standard. Also are there any breeders breeding dogs that look like this? The dogs I found and looked into are back from 2008 and a bit more angulated.

I'm no expert but for right now these dogs just scream that's what I want my shepherds to look like. Which is why I need to learn more about them besides a single stacked photo of them. 😂 

I keep ending up back at this guy somehow, I really like him






Volker vom Zollgrenzschutz-Haus


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Volker vom Zollgrenzschutz-Haus




www.pedigreedatabase.com





Posting more photos, but it's really the first guy that is drawing me in. One of those is his daughter I found by accident just pedigree jumping






Mutz aus der Kückstraße


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Mutz aus der Kückstraße




www.pedigreedatabase.com










Lahngold's Rhemba


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Lahngold's Rhemba




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't love the 2nd two so much but I agree about the first one. I don't know why they would abandon something like that and breed toward what they are today


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What do you think of this dog? 






Dingo vom Haus Gero


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Dingo vom Haus Gero




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't love the 2nd two so much but I agree about the first one. I don't know why they would abandon something like that and breed toward what they are today


I agree. The first dog is pretty striking, was not having much luck finding other examples like him.




MineAreWorkingline said:


> What do you think of this dog?


He's not quite what I'm what I'm looking for structurally, I have seen that video though. Super cool example to see!


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I found a list on a breeders site of BSZS champions going all the way back to the beginning along with their pics. In the list, you can see the gradual and not so gradual angulation.

I think it is copy write protected so I’m just linking it. It isn’t everything you are looking for but interesting.






Historical German Shepherd Sieger list and photographs


The Bunderssieger Zuchtschau is held every year in Germany, presented here is a list of the winners...



www.angesgardiens.ca


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Heartandsoul said:


> I found a list on a breeders site of BSZS champions going all the way back to the beginning along with their pics. In the list, you can see the gradual and not so gradual angulation.
> 
> I think it is copy write protected so I’m just linking it. It isn’t everything you are looking for but interesting.
> 
> ...


It wouldn't load for me! Sounds interesting though. I've actually seem a couple dogs with similar structure after posting this, kind of funny. One was a WGSL/WL mix. Didn't have enough angulation in the croup at all though.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There has always been a split in the true herding (now working) lines. They were trying to develop A certain structural type and used dogs with weak temperament to get the type and then go back an infuse the herding lines to compensate for the weak temperament dogs so they could get type and temperament for the breed. IMO this practice led to the noble look of the at the expense of some great genetics and this approach became increasingly more prominent to the point that research shows the the working lines and show lines are a separate breed genetically. The Martin brother who both led the SV, sold out the breed because they could huge sums of money from naive buyers. The Japanese bought a lot of these dogs because their economy was booming. I think von Stephanitz motto about keeping the breed a working breed is BS. The use of Roland von Starkenburg, who all dogs go back to was a very poor choice due to his temperament issues yet he was touted as a genetic mutation that improved the breed.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There has always been a split in the true herding (now working) lines. They were trying to develop A certain structural type and used dogs with weak temperament to get the type and then go back an infuse the herding lines to compensate for the weak temperament dogs so they could get type and temperament for the breed. IMO this practice led to the noble look of the at the expense of some great genetics and this approach became increasingly more prominent to the point that research shows the the working lines and show lines are a separate breed genetically. The Martin brother who both led the SV, sold out the breed because they could huge sums of money from naive buyers. The Japanese bought a lot of these dogs because their economy was booming. I think von Stephanitz motto about keeping the breed a working breed is BS. The use of Roland von Starkenburg, who all dogs go back to was a very poor choice due to his temperament issues yet he was touted as a genetic mutation that improved the breed.


Interesting post. Although maybe doesn't pertain as well to this thread lol. How do you find the structure of Volker, one of the dogs Iisted? I knwo temperament is a huge thing for sure and it's really depressing to think of how many good dogs get passed over in breeding and how many genetics have been lost in the breed.

But overall I'm trying to get and idea of the specific structure in dogs and how that correlates to the breed standard and the dog's movement. Right now GSD is still on the top of the list for dogs I'll be breeding someday and I want to get as much knowledge as possible. Structure and how that translates to movement is my big question after watching videos of ASLs I'd seen pictures of stacked.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The head of the SV at the time liked him because he was awarded the Sieger title twice. He came from very good lines and was an outcross from the stable and basic "R" litter Osnabruckerland, which was the result of some of the breed's best breeding at the time, but there became too much massing of the "R" litter Osna bruckerland, which lead to many faults being bred, so Volker, being an outcross was one of the "fresh" lines that brought new strength to the breed by pushing down undesirable traits to a recessive role. So it was not just his structure that was desirable, but what he brought genetically that refreshed the lines.This was a time when the breed focused on structure, working ability and producing prepotent desirable traits that were likely to be passed on. IMO, the emphasis on movement became way too emphasized and led to selection for movement at the loss of temperament, which is what you see in all show line dogs. For the GSD, movement was supposed to be correct to assist the dog as a herding dog who could efficiently herd all day and not break down, but as time went by, the structure became way too extreme as the split in the show and working lines became more prominent and the herding ability was lost due to infusing show lines with the true herding lines. Then, as the need for herding was not relevant, you ended up with an exaggerated show dog that couldn't work in any capacity.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Very interesting post Chip. Although there are showline dogs that can do different types of work. They may not be police dogs but there are other uses for a german shepherd besides a dog biting a sleeve. And I mean heck they could be police dog in terms of detection but not apprehension. 

More relevant to this post. Somebody said Volker has a weak back. Can anybody explain why or why not he does? If you can tell from only a couple of stacked photos.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Volker was considered a model of the breed during his time. His Koer report described him as having a reaching gait, long and that his, "Back yields slightly." He did not have a weak back. Where are there show lines doing different types of work? They don't have the drive for detection. I saw a German show line dog on the recent series 'America's Top Dog" and the dog had no business being a police dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Chip you can’t base skills on showlines dog in your small circle of buddies that have dogs to sell. Police use mostly working lines and they have their challenges finding the right dog. There many of showlines that plenty of drive that do search and rescue and cadaver work, service work. More so then people with the drive to do the work. There are a few on the local sar rescue team here where I live. Next town over police recent lost their wgsl. My American Showlines breeder had puppies go off to be cadaver dogs worked by neighboring police. I picked up a book by cat warren who has wgsl work in cadaver work she changes lines still has not yet found a replacement. All while I have not been purposely searching so it’s really makes me question peoples “agenda” when I hear it over and over again. It really is not that mystical to find showlines they earn their keep. 









Police dog dies in crash during car chase


A beloved Long Island police dog — named after his department’s former chief — was killed in a cop-car crash Sunday. Rocky the German Shepherd was in the car of a Riverhead police officer when an A…




www.google.com


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I am not promoting working lines to promote sales for my "small circle of buddies that have dogs to sell." The people I know who sell working dogs sell Mals. The point I am driving is the harm the SV has done to the breed by promoting the show lines because that is their bread and butter and not their concern for the breed, which as a result of the show lines has lost valuable genetics for work and the breed is meant to be a working dog not a show dog. Many breeds can do SAR and cadaver work because of dogs great sense of smell.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Chip you are missing the key works “drive”
Again it’s more then a good nose. I have the right amount of ego to give credit where credit is due. the dogs must have focus and drive to spends days looking for people. Also nerves. Talk to some and cadaver people who do the work sar people and ask them what is required to do the job and I sure is more then a good nose. Their jobs can not be discredited. One of most coolest things a dog can do in my opinion is find people, bombs ,drugs etc.








GSD search and rescue dogs - German Shepherd SAR


GSD search and rescue dogs work mainly as air scenting dogs. Finding human scent is the main objective of SAR.



www.total-german-shepherd.com


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I have seen the nerves of the German show line dogs in the protection test at the Sieger show. And the helpers are instructed to treat them with kid gloves and they do and most show little to no confidence or drive. The whole show thing in the breed is a farce. I believe someone here posted a protection test at the BSZS and one dog ran and was judged as recommended for breeding. And as for drive, it is becoming harder and harder to find working line GSDs with strong hunt drive. When dogs are bred with so much emphasis on physical appearance, drive and nerves can only suffer, which they greatly have.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> And as for drive, it is becoming harder and harder to find working line GSDs with strong hunt drive.


Chip, I would be interested in hearing your opinion about what choices in SV or breed standard testing has led to a decrease in hunt drive. My first thought would be related to the tracking portion of Schutzhund being more focused on precision and obedience than the hunt.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I think schutzhund progressively went in the wrong direction and as it become primarily a sport rather than a breed worthiness test, traits that contributing to winning international events and people making money breeding to top podium dogs changed the gene pool. Schutzhund/IGP is an obedience sport more than anything. Tracking is more about obedience than nose work and hunt drive. The over emphasis on prey to the large exclusion of aggression and nerves changed. I do not think it is a very useful sport and it is so choreographed you can easily pattern train for it and there is no real test of nerves and the sport has been made easier over the years to accommodate the show lines who can barely title with the dilution of the sport and a different criterion of judging and level of helper work in protection. The blind search is not a search at all. There is nothing in the sport that requires hunt drive.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think schutzhund progressively went in the wrong direction and as it become primarily a sport rather than a breed worthiness test, traits that contributing to winning international events and people making money breeding to top podium dogs changed the gene pool. Schutzhund/IGP is an obedience sport more than anything. Tracking is more about obedience than nose work and hunt drive. The over emphasis on prey to the large exclusion of aggression and nerves changed. I do not think it is a very useful sport and it is so choreographed you can easily pattern train for it and there is no real test of nerves and the sport has been made easier over the years to accommodate the show lines who can barely title with the dilution of the sport and a different criterion of judging and level of helper work in protection. The blind search is not a search at all. There is nothing in the sport that requires hunt drive.


I forget now Chip, you've trialed and titled how many dogs to what level again?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The protection sports require a good dog, good handler, good helper/decoy and commitment. They are all sports and have little to do with real work/apprehension/protection. My point is that schutzhund has drifted off into the wrong direction and personally, I have lost the enjoyment of putting so much time into things like a B&H and tracking when other sports provide as much of a test of the handler, decoy and the dog’s genetics. The SV is now all about politics and money and has harmed the breed. Why do you never see German show line dogs competing in KNPV or PSA? I respect people’s’ commitment to the sport of their choice but IGP has let the breed down IMO.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ok, none. Neither one of us has real work/apprehension experience, so that aside, my point is actual experience may give you a little more balanced perspective.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

I like the first one too the best, but I REALLY like how German Shepherds looked in the 1920s 😌


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Volker was considered a model of the breed during his time. His Koer report described him as having a reaching gait, long and that his, "Back yields slightly." He did not have a weak back. Where are there show lines doing different types of work? They don't have the drive for detection. I saw a German show line dog on the recent series 'America's Top Dog" and the dog had no business being a police dog.


For showlines doing work you see it in the US. They may not be participating in sports and getting famous, rather they actually work the dogs. It's generally the buyers doing the work as well, not the breeders getting titles etc. in similar things. 

As far as back yields slightly what would that mean? I thought it was interesting the person said he had a weak back and coincidentally they have more square (as in length of body vs. height) WGSL type dogs rather than slightly long as GSDs are supposed to be.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

People are entitled to their opinions and preferences. To me, the deficits in the modern show lines are embarrassingly obvious. As for the Koer report on Volker’s back, I take it to mean slightly less than ideal. The overfocus on conformation and movement has hurt the breed IMO. Look at non FCI Mals/Mal X’s. There is great variability in type and they are some of the best dogs out there.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I will add that the popularity of the GSD for so long is also a factor in its decline as a working dog in both show and working lines. Just consider how many novices start out with a working line GSD. While inexperienced, they might not have had the knowledge or connections to get a high level working prospect, they were probably able to work through learning how to manage a working line GSD and have the dog strictly as a pet. The same cannot be said of a non FCI Mal from strong lines. They are not good pets or very manageable in the hands of novices. Money is yet again a factor.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I will add that the popularity of the GSD for so long is also a factor in its decline as a working dog in both show and working lines. Just consider how many novices start out with a working line GSD. While inexperienced, they might not have had the knowledge or connections to get a high level working prospect, they were probably able to work through learning how to manage a working line GSD and have the dog strictly as a pet. The same cannot be said of a non FCI Mal from strong lines. They are not good pets or very manageable in the hands of novices. Money is yet again a factor.


Some people take a dog breed as a working breed too far. Most of these breeds shouldn't be totally crazy and unmanageable except in the hands of super duper pros. There's no reason for them to be off the wall and little to no off switch or to have isses such as handler aggression. There's a difference between actually having to put some effort in to keeping the dog happy and stable and the dog just being overwired. 

I will say I have seen some exceptions to that in say working herding dogs who aren't content with doing other activities that aren't herding. Some dog breeds also just don't make great pets depending on the breeding behind them. But GSDs are not those breeds, mals except specifically bred for military work probably shouldn't be either. They should be able to be good dogs in active family homes. 

The big extremes I see are the people breeding extremes to win sports and those are the dogs not suitable. A novice can handle a well bred dog "harder" dog if they're willing to put the work in. My friend had a ridiclously difficult puppy as her first personal dog but she made it work because she was dedicated.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Extreme Mals are individuals as are all dogs. Training and genetics are always factors. IMO you will see a lot more genetic dominance in non FCI Mals, but that is not the majority. You will see much more extreme prey, hunt and possessiveness. Also, people who go with these kinds of dogs have a different mindset and tend not to see their dogs as family members. If a prospect becomes dysplastic after a good bit of training has been put into the dog, they might donate it to a police department because the dog is still functional but no longer breeding quality. It is not that they don’t have an attachment to their dogs, it is just a different type of attachment. Look at all the posts on this forum about dogs with temperament and physical issues. People into high level Mals and top level GSDs wot hesitate to rehome a defective dog or euthanize it. These are not heartless, cold people. They are just committed to keeping the gene pool of top working quality. I mentioned in another post how culling in Europe is much more matter of fact. Many of these high drive Mals are not bouncing off the walls and are socially appropriate, but have a tremendous desire to bite a toy or decoy. Some refer to this trait as bite drive, which is a questionably accurate term, but such dogs have an intense desire to bite and possess an object and have something in their mouth. Some also have extreme food drive which is great for training but not for someone who doesn’t know how to use that drive. So the fault doesn’t lie in the dogs but in the inexperience of the handler.


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## Lukas77 (May 2, 2020)

Nowadays you don´t find many showlines doing policework or sportwork, found one who recently retired at 10 years old thou so there is always exceptions I suppose. Can watch him here,
Här fäller polishunden Imre Eskilstuna-Kurirens reporter

Pedigree,
Trönderjyckens Imre

Something like this I think is a good looking GSD and have a good conformation reminding me of the older dogs before they started to mess with the structure of the dogs
Kennel Hinden


Kennel Hinden


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

The leanness of the early dogs is beyond obvious, but gets very little attention, if any. Strikes me as odd.

It’s as glaring as the change in angulation over the decades.

Just an observation .....


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