# For or Against: Cross breeding



## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Um, could someone correct me if I'm wrong, but an example of cross breeding is the goldendoodle, right? Okay.

So, what are your thoughts on cross breeding? Like taking a golden retriever and breeding it to a poodle. 

Is it benefiting the dog world or the opposite?


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm totally against it. It's just as you said, cross breeding and it's not doing anyone or anything any good. They're basically mutts.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't like or dislike it. If it weren't for mixed breeding I wouldn't have Rosa. I think wide variety in everything (people, plants, animals) benefits the world. I believe those who wish to breed crosses have that right, as do those who breed pure lines. Whether one chooses to own a purebred or mix is up to them.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I believe that, if they DO crossbreed they should be honest about it! Don't call it a new breed, admit that it is a mutt. I voted against because there really isn't anyone doing it properly. They aren't trying to make a new breed, which is a TON of work and careful planning and paperwork/record keeping. They throw 2 dogs together and call them hypo-allergenic. They don't tell buyers that the dog could fall anywhere in size/weight of the 2 breeds used, not to mention that the temperment can be very questionable since the breeds are often on opposite ends of the spectrum. A golden retriever and a poodle are very different in personality. Also, some will use a minature poodle and some will use a standard. Etc Etc...

I remember a few years ago there was work on a new breed. I want to say it was the Kelpie, but I it's too early to remember. That I would approve of - they had a purpose and they put in the work to make it happen. Too often crossbreeding = irresponsible make a $$ breeders


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

dainerra said:


> i believe that, if they do crossbreed they should be honest about it! Don't call it a new breed, admit that it is a mutt.


amen!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It depends on the motivation for me. There are cross bred dogs that I would own. I think it can be successful for some purposes. I am not particularly interested in it as a way to produce the next popular pet though.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I dont like "designer" dogs.

I'm not a huge fan of mixed breeds, I mean yes they are adorable and they are some of the best dogs but it's like a wild card, you dont know how big they are going to get, you dont know how their personality is going to be because chances are your not going to know the parents of that dog. 

However I do like the mix of GSD/Husky. I love the looks and the temperment of GSD/Husky mixes though, they all seem to be the same (my mom has one, I have one and I know a couple of people that have some). They are smart, fast learners, beautiful, fast, athletic, talkers (but not as bad as PB Husky's) they are a little bit independent (not glued to you like a GSD, but not as independent as PB Husky's) and they can have GSD coloring or Husky coloring and they could have those beautiful haunting blue eyes. :wub:

I also like GSD/Chow mixes and Rott/Chow mixes.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Good_Karma said:


> I don't like or dislike it. If it weren't for mixed breeding I wouldn't have Rosa. I think wide variety in everything (people, plants, animals) benefits the world. I believe those who wish to breed crosses have that right, as do those who breed pure lines. Whether one chooses to own a purebred or mix is up to them.


 I totally agree with this. And there are a lot of purposely bred mixes that are actually used for work or sport. Lurchers, Borderjacks, GSD/Mal crosses, even the Doodles. 

Also at some point, adding a different breed to the gene pool of some of the purebreds is going to be the only option for improvement of health. When you have breeds where most of the affected by a genetic disorder and the rest carry it, the only way to improve on health is to outcross. This was the case with Dalmatians and uric acid. All resgitered, purebred Dals have the potential to be stone formers, though not all are because they all have abnormal uric acid. There is a line of Dals that was created by adding a Pointer in one time (first generation was PointerxDal all subsequent generations were only bred to Dals). About half of those dogs have normal uric acid. Unfortunately, while the project was originally intended for these dogs to be adding into the AKC studbook, the DCA members changed their minds and don't want "mixed breeds" in their gene pool. The "backcross project" Dals are still being bred, they just can't be registered.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Dainerra said:


> I voted against because there really isn't anyone doing it properly. They aren't trying to make a new breed, which is a TON of work and careful planning and paperwork/record keeping.


Aren't they doing this with Labradoodles in Australia?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

There are far too many 'mix' breeds at the shelters. IMO, it is just a scam to make money.


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## Navah (Aug 10, 2010)

They are just mutts. After this whole making mutts and calling them full breeds I started calling my mutt (Shepherd/Doberman) a Sheperman. I swear its a real breed! People always look at me odd when I refer to him as my designer dog the Sheperman lol. But hey, if they can do it with “poo’s” why can’t I? Lol. I agree that they need to be honest. If it was properly done i would be for it but for the most part it seems people just want to make fast cash.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm completely against it in every case except for the cavaliers. Why? Because I don't know ONE cross-breeder that does it right. None do proper hip/eye/cardio/genetic health testings suitable for each breed, none have a guarantee, none have a contract, and so on. As a result of this, I've seen hundreds of dogs dumped in shelters I've worked at, that I KNOW came from a "breeder" breeding mutts. 

There's no purpose. They aren't working, they aren't helping a breed, they're just overwhelming the shelters and causing thousands of dogs to be euthanized. 

That's not to say I wouldn't own a dog from a breeder like this or adopt a mutt, but I would NOT pay to support a breeder who's knowingly doing this and causing SO many dogs so much pain.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

100% against. We don't need more mixed breeds and for ppl to sell these designer dogs for large bucks is crap. They aren't developing a new breed with any purpose. They are simply creating mixed breeds.

The man who created the first "labradoodle" did so with the intent of a hypoallergenic service dog for a client. Out of the litter, if my memory is correct, only 3 were hypoallergenic. He stated in an interview that he now regrets ever doing so.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm completely against it in every case except for the cavaliers. Why? Because I don't know ONE cross-breeder that does it right. None do proper hip/eye/cardio/genetic health testings suitable for each breed, none have a guarantee, none have a contract, and so on. As a result of this, I've seen hundreds of dogs dumped in shelters I've worked at, that I KNOW came from a "breeder" breeding mutts.
> 
> There's no purpose. They aren't working, they aren't helping a breed, they're just overwhelming the shelters and causing thousands of dogs to be euthanized.





DJEtzel said:


> I'm completely against it in every case except for the cavaliers. Why? Because I don't know ONE cross-breeder that does it right. None do proper hip/eye/cardio/genetic health testings suitable for each breed, none have a guarantee, none have a contract, and so on. As a result of this, I've seen hundreds of dogs dumped in shelters I've worked at, that I KNOW came from a "breeder" breeding mutts.


 Actually there are plenty of breeders of mixed breed who health test, have contracts, etc. Hang out at some flyball tournaments if you want to meet some  

There are also quite a few service dog orgs using Doodles now. 

Lurchers and long dogs have been used by hunters for more than a hundred years. People must see an advantage to sighthound crosses for hunting in some scenerios over purebred sighthounds. 

And IME most mixes at the shelter are not purposely bred, usually the result of an irresponsible owner letting their dog get bred by some other irresponsibly owned dog. For someone looking for a flyball dog, randomly bred shelter mixed breed is not really the equivalent of a Borderjack from a health tested pedigree with parents who have been extremely successful at the sport. If they were, there wouldn't be a market for Borderjacks (or Borderstaffs or Borderwhippets or...). In many cases, saying purposely bred mixes are taking away from people who would be adopting from a shelter is like saying buying a purebred is "taking homes away" from shelter dogs.

The truth is people want different things in and from their dogs. The more a person expects from their dog, the more particular they tend to be about what they look for in both the individual dog and the dog's parents/pedigree. I have known people involved with agility who swore they'd never buy a dog from a breeder and would always get shelter dogs. Now years later, they have dogs bought from breeders out of health tested and proven pedigrees. Often after having major temperament, health or structural issues repeatedly with shelter dogs some of which would not have been as much a problem in a pet home (and some which would have been more of a problem). 

Our rescue corgi is really awesome as far as agility goes - extremely driven, extremely fast and really has the potential to be a top dog in his height. Structure wise, I'm not sure how he would have held up to the constant training/trialing required for that level of competition. He's been a fun hobby performance dog for my husband though and that's fine because my husband isn't isn't really interested in competing beyond that level. It was his choice to get a rescue dog when he decided he wanted a corgi and he'll likely get a rescue again. 

Curious why you feel it's ok to do crossbreeding with Cavs but anyone else is doing it only for money?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i'm also not a fan of designer dogs. I'm sorry but theres just too many variables in it and i cant understand or even fathom HAPPILY spending (if i spent that kind of money on a mutt anyway) thousands of dollars on a MUTT!!!! sure its cute but they're ALL cute when they're puppies. If someone is allergic to dogs, they either find a way to work with it or they stay away from dogs. Plain and simple. I dont need or want a dog that was designed for people with allergies because its more often than not the dandruff that is causing the issues. AND i go for certain PUREBREEDS because they have what i'm looking for. I cant be sure i'll get the qualities i'm looking for in a mutt. I wouldnt mind having a doberman/GSD mix but those are two breeds i understand and know what to expect from. Golden Retrievers and Poodles can actually be some of the nastiest tempered animals you've ever encountered for no reason except genetics. I view golden retrievers as stupid because most i've come in contact with have been. I view poodles as ugly and too high maintence because in my mind, they are ugly and in reality they ARE high maintence. I dont need or want an animal that i may or may not have to take to the groomer every 6 weeks because it may or may not have the coat a poodle does. We have Riley. He's a mixed breed. I love him and all. But its also because i understand and know GSDs and border collies. I've always been partial to PB so maybe thats why i'm not a fan of crossbreeding.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I voted against it, but I want to change it. I think you should have put a third choice for "In the middle" people, the people who are against it and for it.

I am against it because of the idiot people who do it just for fun and looks. If you are going to do it for money, because you just want to or for other stupid reasons then cross breeding is bad. Which is why there are so many mixed breeds in shelters, too many people doing irresponsibly(there are also people breeding pure breds irresponsibly).

I am for it ONLY if its for trying to improve another breed for health reasons, to create a better working version of the breed. If there is a real, definite, responsible reason for it, then I am for it. They do it for horses, but there are people doing that irresponsibly too.

If you aren't going to breed responsibly for health, work purposes then don't breed at all whether its a cross breed or purebred.

As for the "designer dogs", they fall into why I am against it. There are some mixes I like, but would only get them at a shelter.


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

Our last dog was a so called "designer dog"..... Huge mistake, no reliability in something that's not tried and tested true for 50+ years. At only 8 months old she started biting my well mannered children who never scared or hurt her. We ending up placing her in a new home without any children in it.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

When there is a purpose for the creation of the dog, I am "for" cross breeding. I'm not really sure why agencies (such as service dog agencies) don't just use poodles. I understand the original purpose of the cross was to create essentially a labrador or golden with so called hypo allergenic fur, but frequently it still causes problems with allergies and it brings me back to - why not use the purebred poodle which is an extremely intelligent animal? The standard poodle is every big as big as the others and with an excellent trainable temperment.

I think crosses can have a place in society, but not to the extent that the general public has taken it. When I see ridiculous mixes on craigslist (I'm not kidding - but right now on our local CL there are german shepherd and mini schnauzer puppies) it just makes me shake my head and sigh with frustration. Or all these people who end up with a random mutt and give it some ridiculous name where I have to sit there and try to figure out what kind of mix the dog is.

Didn't vote because I think think it's as cut and dry as "for or against" cross breeding (at least not in my eyes). All breeds were created from cross breeding. We wouldn't have the german shepherd or any other breed if selective breeding wasn't done early on. But to mix random breeds just for a new fad to make money and no real purpose, no, I don't agree.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

CaseysGSD said:


> Our last dog was a so called "designer dog"..... Huge mistake, no reliability in something that's not tried and tested true for 50+ years. At only 8 months old she started biting my well mannered children who never scared or hurt her. We ending up placing her in a new home without any children in it.


 This could have been a issue she was prone to genetically, it could have been an early training/socialization issue or a combination of both. If you go to the aggression section of this forum, you'll find plenty of posts from people who have problems with their GSDs too. People breeding dogs without concern for temperament is not limited to "designer breeds" and people dropping the ball with early training and socialization isn't either. 



KZoppa said:


> Golden Retrievers and Poodles can actually be some of the nastiest tempered animals you've ever encountered for no reason except genetics. I view golden retrievers as stupid because most i've come in contact with have been. I view poodles as ugly and too high maintence because in my mind, they are ugly and in reality they ARE high maintence.


:help: They are also popular (Poodles) and extremely popular (Goldens) service dogs, the most competitive breed in competition obedience (Goldens) and the breed that competition obedience was designed for (Poodles). And Goldendoodles/Labradoodles are becoming increasingly popular as service dogs. Guess there must be some smart ones out there...

A lot of people think GSDs are neurotic/flighty/fear biters/aggressive/etc. Often the issue is that the ones those people have had experience with are. Like with Goldens and Poodles, often the dogs people see most are poorly bred examples. I work at a grooming shop and see Goldens a lot and big Poodles fairly often. IME it is not at all common for either breed to be "nasty" (more common to meet nasty or at least very difficult GSDs to be honest). The Goldens can be difficult because many are scared of the dryer or just very exuberant and don't hold still. Most of the big Poodles are really tolerant. The little Poodles tend to have common little dog issues, which often are actually little dog owner issues. 

Different dogs appeal to different people for different reasons. You (general) get to decide what dogs you want but not what is right or wrong for other people to want. And that is what the issue of crossing breeds really comes down to. Regardless of how some people feel about it, there are a lot of people who want purposely bred mixes for whatever reason. 



Rerun said:


> Didn't vote because I think think it's as cut and dry as "for or against" cross breeding (at least not in my eyes).


 I agree and didn't vote for the same reason.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

CaseysGSD said:


> Our last dog was a so called "designer dog"..... Huge mistake, no reliability in something that's not tried and tested true for 50+ years. At only 8 months old she started biting my well mannered children who never scared or hurt her. We ending up placing her in a new home without any children in it.


Just curious what the mix was?


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I am totally against breeders crossing dogs. If someone wants a mixed breed then they can go to any shelter and get one that needs to be saved. I have a huge problem when I open the paper, scroll through pets sections and see "cavachons" "multipoos" "yorkipoos" "teddybears" and the best one yet, the guy across the street who told me about the purebred cockapoo he used to have. Commonly these designer mixes sell for $400-800+. They make up about 75% of the classified ads in my area. It's really disturbing. I will never support someone who is intentionally crossing breeds because it's what 'they believe' is the best dog ever!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> This could have been a issue she was prone to genetically, it could have been an early training/socialization issue or a combination of both. If you go to the aggression section of this forum, you'll find plenty of posts from people who have problems with their GSDs too. People breeding dogs without concern for temperament is not limited to "designer breeds" and people dropping the ball with early training and socialization isn't either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i understand that goldens are popular and so are poodles in service work. But i rarely see THOSE good ambassadors of those particular breeds. Like i said, in my mind, goldens are stupid and poodles are ugly and high maintence. Some people like them some people dont. I'm one of those who dont. Its one of the reasons i'm not a particularly huge fan of longcoated GSDs. I dont care for it and i dont want to have to worry about tangles, daily grooming to remove burrs and whatever else has gotten tangled in their coats. Its all about preference. I'm in the middle on crossbreeding as spending a couple thousand on a mutt makes absolutely no sense to me, especially when you cant have a better understand of the dogs temperment whether you meet the parents or not. Its just like i'm iffy on going a breeder that breeders more than one breed of dog.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

A big pet peeve of mine is just because someone had 1 or 2 bad incidents with a certain breed they assume all the dogs of that breed are bad. You can't really judge one breed based on 2 incidents because it does come down to the owner or breeder.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> A big pet peeve of mine is just because someone had 1 or 2 bad incidents with a certain breed they assume all the dogs of that breed are bad. You can't really judge one breed based on 2 incidents because it does come down to the owner or breeder.


 
this is true as well. i agree. i'm not a fan of akitas and chows but thats me. I love pitbull type breeds despite the common fear. They're sweet and good dogs. I'm not a fan of goldens though our neighbor across the street has one and he's a decent dog, i still wouldnt personally have one. never liked poodles. I think goldendoodles look funny. pugs annoy me. cant stand english bulldogs. i think what i cant stand most about designer dogs or intentional crossbreeding, is the annoying celebrities that get those breeds. Like Perez Hilton and his golden mixed thing. I feel bad for that dog. The guy doesnt use his dishwasher for dishes but to store his dogs outfits! seriously?! 

okay... i'm gonna walk away from this thread for now because i'm annoyed just thinking about it... I guess i'm just a PB preference person.


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## HI_ (Oct 17, 2010)

I don't like cross breeding i just like them purebred=)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I voted that I dislike cross breeding of dogs. I do not think it should be illegal to do so. 

What I do not like about it, even with the cav example, just putting titles on a dog, and doing some health screening, does not create a new breed or even the best of both worlds. Taking the get from this breeding, and taking the get from a similar breeding pair and breeding that, and down the line, does not make a new breed. 

Most likely, you will have dogs that have a variety of the traits you wanted and the traits you do not want and are susceptable to all the health concerns for both breeds. 

To start a breed of dogs properly, you would have to have a ton of people involved, and a massive amount of money and time invested. You would have to start with a vision -- a medium small dog specifically to hunt and kill spiders -- yeah, I would probably go for this. 

First you would have to find dogs like Rosa that are good at killing spiders and research their make up. Maybe find five or six breeds of dogs that would be used in the mix. Then you would want each of their breed history, health history, etc, so that you would get specimens that would be excellent to start off with. And down the line, you still may find that you need to remove an entire line of dogs, and be willing to do that.

generations pass, with anal attention to every single breeding, what it produced, what were the results, etc etc, and then you decide you need to inject more terrier, or something that will make them more low key, or something that will give them more or less height or weight, and you add a little of something else in there. 

Again, breed, breed, breed, evaluate, cut, remove, until you are producing something with enough regularity and with the origianal purpose that you can actually write a standard and stop allowing the addition of more purebred dogs in. 

With all of these experiments and breeding pairs, enough so that you will not have to miserably inbreed for, where are all the puppies going that are not selected for breeding? Where do the washouts all go? 

If there is actually a need, say for a bomb sniffing dog under eight inches, then I would approve of going ahead and trying to develop that. But for the most part, we have bird dogs for all occasions, hound dogs for all occasions, herding dogs for anything you want to do. And the list goes on and on. If you really cannot find a dog that covers what your needs are in all the breeds that are currently recognized by some kennel club, I guess you might have a case.

Most people do not have the resources or following to do it right though.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> Curious why you feel it's ok to do crossbreeding with Cavs but anyone else is doing it only for money?


I never said everyone else is doing it for money. I just said they weren't doing it right. 

Yes, there are a few breeds that have been crossed up that are for a purpose. These are done correctly. The cavalier is the best example I have and what I support the most in cross breeding. There are virtually NO healthy Cavaliers out there anymore so they are crossbreeding them with the clumber spaniel I believe and having a lot of success breeding out the health issues and restoring the Cav. to AKC recognizable status. Done for a purpose by people who know what they are doing. 

Crossing a border collie and jack russell terrier together because they're both good at flyball means nothing to me and I wouldn't support it. I bet a border/JRT mix would excel at agility too, but that's not a good enough purpose to mix breeds, imo.


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## Dennq (Jun 21, 2010)

Isn't cross breeding how we got all these different pure breeds today?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Dennq said:


> Isn't cross breeding how we got all these different pure breeds today?


Yep, but all of these were bred for a purpose. A golden doodle serves no purpose, neither does a husky/GSD mix or a shorkie.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Most breeds come from a variety of breeds in the back ground, not just a lab and a poodle. When dogs were used much more than they are today, different areas developed different dogs that excelled at tasks needed for that area, and were capable of handling the environment. Usually these dogs existed and were used by farmers, or hunters, until one day, someone got the great idea to refine and preserve the breed. Max started with shepherd dogs of the area. He fiddled with them, and in bred and outcrossed, and removed dogs, until he had the basic dog he was looking for. 

And this is really the story for many of the breeds out there. They were not a random mixing of two purebred dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Or those people who breed to create the "Ultimate Guard Dog" is just crazy and a no no.

Didn't the guy who created the Labradoodle or one of the doodle breeds actually regret doing it?

For now, If I want a mixed breed I will go to the shelter.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Or those people who breed to create the "Ultimate Guard Dog" is just crazy and a no no.
> 
> *Didn't the guy who created the Labradoodle or one of the doodle breeds actually regret doing it?*
> 
> For now, If I want a mixed breed I will go to the shelter.


Yep. He did it for a client that needed a service dog and was allergic to dogs. Later regretted it.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

We have Labradoodles here at the Cancer Hospital I work at.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> I voted that I dislike cross breeding of dogs. I do not think it should be illegal to do so.
> 
> What I do not like about it, even with the cav example, just putting titles on a dog, and doing some health screening, does not create a new breed or even the best of both worlds. Taking the get from this breeding, and taking the get from a similar breeding pair and breeding that, and down the line, does not make a new breed.


 The Cav/Clumber breeding is not being done to create a new breed. It is being done to introduce genes for normal hearts back into the breed. Likely very few Clumbers will be used. If a breed has an extremely widespread genetic issue (I believe at least 90% of Cavs suffer from a genetic heart condition by the age of 10) the only way to breed away from it is to introduce normal genes from another breed. To be honest it's the modern idea that any cross breeding is bad which got some breeds into this sort of mess to start with. Closed studbooks on low number breeds is a disaster. Really closed stud books are a very modern idea and have only been around since the early 1900s, developed at first only in the interest of show dogs. Prior to that and even continuing for quite awhile afterwards, it was pretty common to go outside of the breed you were breeding if you wanted to add a trait that didn't currently exist or was hard to find in your breed.Even once the studbooks were established, it wasn't until even more modern times when the registries started to become strict about them. Some of the first Malinois in this country were originally registered and bred as GSDs until Belgian Sheepdogs (as they were all initially called) became a recognized breed. Once they did the GSD registered Mals were registered and bred as what they were. Even now there are some interesting things that can go on with AKC concerning the registration of the Belgians as separate breeds. 

For information on how to introduce normal genes for a problem into a breed read Dr Selzer's information on the Backcross Dalmatian Project:

About The Dalmatian Heritage Project - Dalmatian Puppy Breeding & Adoption - Hayward, California

And for a bit of a different take, check out the Bobtail Boxer project, where a BoxerxCorgi cross was used to introduce the bobtail trait into Boxers. By the third generation, they looked like Boxers. By the fourth generation, he had show quality Boxers in the litter. 

GENETICS CAN BE FUN - Part 4 



selzer said:


> To start a breed of dogs properly, you would have to have a ton of people involved, and a massive amount of money and time invested.


 You do need some people involved but I'm not sure how much more time or money it would take than normal dog breeding. Knowledge of genetics would help but our modern breeds may or may not have had that going for them when they were developed. Many breedings were simply done based on performance. And we have seen many new breeds developed over the past 30 years or so. Off the top of my head:

Silken Windhounds ISWS - International Silken Windhound SocietyShiloh Shepherds Shiloh Shepherds Home: Shiloh Shepherd pictures, breed, club, registry info!Alaskan Klee Kai Alaskan Klee Kai Association of America - AKKAOAHangin' Tree Cowdogs Hangin Tree Cowdog Association, Inc.Carolina Dog The Carolina Dog Association: Carolina Dog Breeder Information - American Dingo Dog Breeders Carolina Dogs
Miniature Aussies/North American Shepherds Home page

There is no one set way to go about creating a breed. Most of them are actually started without anyone sitting down and saying "I'm going to create a new breed". They evolve simply from breeding for certain traits over generations. The definition of being purebred is having not outcrosses to other breeds for X generations and "breeding true". 



selzer said:


> With all of these experiments and breeding pairs, enough so that you will not have to miserably inbreed for, where are all the puppies going that are not selected for breeding? Where do the washouts all go?


 It depends on the purpose but they could go to pet homes or less demanding working/sport homes. This is the case with Alaskan Huskies (which are work-bred mixes), if they don't pan out for say Iditarod training, they can still go to recreational mushers who don't need dogs with the same the speed or endurance. The flyball-bred mixes can generally find a place on some team, I've never heard of anyone having a hard time placing their Boderjacks or Borderstaffs or what have you into flyball homes. Again you have a range of different options, not all dogs have to be on the most competitive teams. Of course those are purposely bred mixes and no one is attempting to make them into a breed. They will always be purposely bred mixes. But I suspect the same is true for people creating new breeds, there are always options for homes depending on what sort of dog you are breeding for. Most people who get as involved enough with dog breeding to work towards creating a new breed likely are involved enough to know people who are interested in the dogs they are attempting to breed for and likely have resources for finding homes for their puppies. And again, most people don't start with a kennel full of multiple breeds and an idea to breed them together to start a breed. Most breeds start because people start selecting for certain traits and over time, more and more people become interested in having dogs with these traits. 



selzer said:


> If there is actually a need, say for a bomb sniffing dog under eight inches, then I would approve of going ahead and trying to develop that. But for the most part, we have bird dogs for all occasions, hound dogs for all occasions, herding dogs for anything you want to do. And the list goes on and on. If you really cannot find a dog that covers what your needs are in all the breeds that are currently recognized by some kennel club, I guess you might have a case.


 With that line of reasoning the GSD should have never been created. There were already plenty of shepherd type herding breeds in Europe that could also to protection work. GSDs are a relatively new breed, just a bit over a hundred years old so many of the European Shepherds were around before them. 

Obviously people involved with the newer breds feel that no other older breed quite suits their needs as well. Or in the case of performance/sport/work bred mixes, they couldn't find what they wanted in an existing breed.


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Just curious what the mix was?


Sorry took so long.... She was a schnoodle (toy poodle, mini schnauzer) we did take her to training classes (not to be mean because she was so sweet to me but she wasn't very smart) as well as we got her at 8 weeks. I think the problem was my father in law got her for my daughters and he bought her from a puppy boutique, come to find out after doing my research the dogs came from a total puppy mill (even though the store of course told him all the dogs come from private breeders) So I think that's where the problem lies, while yes I'm sure there can be good breeders out there with the best in mind unfortunately when a cute mix become popular the mills crank out these really cute genetically poor animals to fill up our ever growing number of pound animals (yes, I did rehome our mix but only because it was not safe for our children and she went to a great forever home, I would have never abandoned her we just carfully kept her until the best place for her was found)


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Yep. He did it for a client that needed a service dog and was allergic to dogs. Later regretted it.


This is exactly my point previously. Why not just use the standard poodle? If the only reason was allergies, it doesn't make any sense. The poodle can do everything the lab can for a service dog, and is every bit as intelligent, similar size, willing to please, etc.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> This is exactly my point previously. Why not just use the standard poodle? If the only reason was allergies, it doesn't make any sense. The poodle can do everything the lab can for a service dog, and is every bit as intelligent, similar size, willing to please, etc.


Because Poodles are ugly?


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

"Designer breeds" are all about marketing, in my opinion. I have a friend at work who actually convinced a couple of idiots that his Boston Terrier / Pug mix was a "miniature pit bull, they used to use them to swarm over other animals like a school of piranha, that's why they're illegal to import now. I've got the last one in the U.S." :rofl: 

They were reaching for their wallets as he walked away, trying not to laugh out loud.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

LaRen616 said:


> Because Poodles are ugly?


And you find these attractive?
labradoodle - Google Search


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> And you find these attractive?
> labradoodle - Google Search


I sure as heck dont! I hate Labs and I hate Poodles so the combination is disturbing to me.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

*Some *Goldendoodles are cute though. :blush:


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Yeah...those do nothing for me. But a nice english lab I could get into. 

I would love a chocolate english lab one day...


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> Yeah...those do nothing for me. But a nice english lab I could get into.
> 
> I would love a chocolate english lab one day...


I think some Goldendoodles are cute like Teddy Bears, do I have Teddy Bears? No I dont. Do I want one? No I dont.

I just dont like Labs, I dont like the way they look, I dont like the way they act. They do nothing for me at all. It could be because so many people have them and most of them dont train them and they let them get super fat.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I want one like this....the medium sized stockier variety, with the bigger heads. I don't care for the americanized version (much like the american shepherd, labs have been IMHO ruined here)










When we were looking for what ended up being Dante, I was shocked at how pricey a good lab is. They were more expensive than working line GSD's. I guess you get what you pay for....


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Another mix that I have seen several times and I almost got 2 of them are (2 different times) Rottweiler/Chow mixes. There have been 2 that I filled out an aplication to adopt but they both had tons of adoption requests. 

They were adorable!! :wub::wub:


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

Here are some pictures of the Schnoodle we had

9 weeks old









8 monts old....she doesn't look like a biter but don't let her fool you LOL


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I didn't vote... I am 100% AGAINST creating mutts on purpose for pets when we have thousands of "Schnoodles" "Pekapoms" "Shih-Poo's" and "Labrabulls" dying every day. 

However, if the mix is for working reasons I'm fine with it.. like some hog hunters mix Catahoula's, sight hounds, scent hounds and other breeds with Bulldogs or American Bulldogs to make better hunters in upcoming generations.. for a purpose, not to sell them as a fad and they are bred and culled properly. 

Or a mal/GSD mix done on purpose to make a better police dog for whatever reason they handlers choose to do it... not to sell them off as "German Malinois Shepherds"


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

My dad had a Schnoodle(don't remember if it was mini or standard sized). They got him at a shelter, or pound.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Rerun said:


> I want one like this....the medium sized stockier variety, with the bigger heads. I don't care for the americanized version (much like the american shepherd, labs have been IMHO ruined here)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats exactly what my neighbor around the block's Chocolate Lab looks like!! They have a yellow lab of the same structure too.Both dogs are well trained and neither are fat and are total sweethearts.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

If you've got a dog, at one time it was a cross breed of something. Ask Max von S. GSD, didn't fall out of the sky. For me, it's not so much "if" it's more of a "why". If it serves a purpose, then why not. 

DFrost


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Rerun said:


> This is exactly my point previously. Why not just use the standard poodle? If the only reason was allergies, it doesn't make any sense. The poodle can do everything the lab can for a service dog, and is every bit as intelligent, similar size, willing to please, etc.


 Standard Poodles have a shorter life expectancy (about 10 years) and have some widespread health issues. They are also rather high maintenance grooming wise. Perhaps the idea was to get the a Poodle like dog with better genetic health that required less grooming. Not sure Doodles really worked out for that. Some do have really nice coats, kind of like a short terrier coat. But those ones also tend to shed to some degree, like terriers do. The low shedding ones tend to have coats like Bouvs or Poodles (Poodle coats happen they doodles are bred back to Poodles), so are definitely not low maintenance. Another interesting thing is that the cross often produces rather large dogs, bigger than a standard or a Golden/Lab. I am not sure how they stand up health wise to the average Poodle or Golden. I have known some Doodles with allergies and with HD, although I suspect the chance of them having SA or Addison's Disease is problem very much lower than a purebred Poodle's chances. Service dog orgs are still using them though, so they must like things about the cross. At least one service dog org also breeds Lab/Golden crosses for service work. 

I'm a fan of big Poodles but can see why some service orgs might prefer a mix. I personally love the look of the terrier coated Doodles but I have become rather fond of scruffy haired dogs like Picardys, Laekens and PyrSheps.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I dont have a problem with it because I dont have a problem with breeding as long 1) both dogs are completely healthy 2) the mother recieves good care while pregnant 3) the puppies recieve good care.- Im more against people not spaying or neutering their dogs and having multiple unplanned litters because that is where many unwanted dogs come from. Im obviously against any puppy mill. But I am not against responsible cross breeding. I feel if I was, I would have to be against all breeding, because a dog is a dog, it doesnt matter if its purebred or not.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Someone mentioned earlier they thought only 3 in the first litter had the desired coat, it was only 1 of a litter of 3. Of the next 10 pups produced, only 3 had the desired coat. 

Here is an interesting article in Readers Digest by Wally Conron, the man credited with starting the whole designer dog craze
My Story: I Designed a Dog | Life | Reader's Digest Australia


I didn't vote. I am not against crossbreeding in certain circumstances, like for a purpose to produce working dogs, or to increase health in another breed.
I am against designer dogs completely. I see no reason to be breeding more pet dogs, especially for a large price tag, when the same dog is found in the shelter.
I am even more against calling it a "breed" and implying there are predicatable traits in the offspring (including being hypoallergenic) or that there is an increased health benefits (particularly when neither breed has had any health testing done). 

Yes, some breeds (not all) are the result of mixing other breeds, including our GSD, but it was not the result of slapping two breeds together and calling it a new one. There was a purpose. There was generations of selective breeding for specific traits until these desired traits consistantly appeared.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

I think if you crossed a Bulldog with a Shitzu, that would sum up my feelings on the whole deal.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm just a purist what can I say. I hate the word designer it's a mut plain and simple- a genetically engineered mut, but hey aren't all dogs in some ways anyway. Breeds weren't born labs, shepherds, and so on- they were created by man mixing and matching different traits to create a dog intended for specific purposes and then given breed names. So I can't say I have a problem with creating a breed to serve a purpose not already met by the market, but I have a problem with mixing any two dogs who will procreate for the purpose of giving it some ridiculous "designer" name and charging 3x as much as another known and recognized similar breed. Mutts are known for being somewhat healthier, are undeniably cute, and growing in popularity. My real concern is breed integrity and how easy it is after a few generations to pass off a mutt as a purebred when bred back to the same breed for a generation or two. It has happened in epic proportions in the reptile world and destroyed the purity of many animals that are endangered wiping away species we should have been preserving. It's easy to say there are thousands of poodles and labs, but as the market demands more labradoodles numbers of pure animals dwindle, the health benefits are erased, and in time a day will come when it is harder and harder to determine if we in fact have a pure anything


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

Rerun said:


> The poodle can do everything the lab can for a service dog, and is every bit as intelligent, similar size, willing to please, etc.


The story I have heard was that the early attempts to use poodles as guide dogs all failed because the poodles failed to exhibit the "selective disobedience" required. When the handler says "Forward" and the dog must refuse due to traffic conditions. The guide dog people generally refer to this as "taking responsibility".

I see signs on the net that perhaps there are now effective poodle guide dogs, but I have never seen one. I see mainly Fidelco shepherds and Guiding Eyes for the Blind labs around here.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Uniballer said:


> I see signs on the net that perhaps there are now effective poodle guide dogs, but I have never seen one. I see mainly Fidelco shepherds and Guiding Eyes for the Blind labs around here.


 Pilot Dogs in Columbus uses Goldens, Labs, GSDs, Poodles, Boxers, Dobes and Viszlas. I think they have a breeding program for Goldens and the others are breeder donations.That have been using these breeds years. I've seen several of their Poodle, Viszla, Boxer and Dobe puppies being trained over the years. Meet Our Dogs - Pilot Dogs


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Deuce said:


> I'm totally against it. It's just as you said, cross breeding and it's not doing anyone or anything any good. They're basically mutts.


Hooray!! I totaly agree. These are MUTTS that often result in the worst traits of both breeds!! But what REALLY gets my goat is that these dogs are being sold (often for big bucks) as some new and special "designer" breed. HELLO - they are mutts.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

There is no problem with being personally opposed to designer breeds. I am personally opposed to lots of purebred dogs that I find to be ugly or useless. But I will not deny the right of anyone to love and breed more of those particular dogs.

The danger comes in when people begin to suggest legislation regarding breeding rules because that is a very slippery slope. If we ban designer dog breeds, will "dangerous" breed limits be next? What comes after that?

So that is why I will never be opposed to designer breeds. I won't ever in all likelihood purchase a designer dog, which is all any of us really need to do in order to protest cross-breeding. Remove the demand, breeders will not make these dogs.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Navah said:


> They are just mutts. After this whole making mutts and calling them full breeds I started calling my mutt (Shepherd/Doberman) a Sheperman. I swear its a real breed! People always look at me odd when I refer to him as my designer dog the Sheperman lol. But hey, if they can do it with “poo’s” why can’t I? Lol. I agree that they need to be honest. If it was properly done i would be for it but for the most part it seems people just want to make fast cash.


I used to call Auca my "European Shepherd" because she was a mix of German and Belgian Shepherd


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Cross-breeding? When you mate 2 dogs what you get is a dog. Hopefully that dog will have a home to go to. If both parents are the same breed it is not considered a mutt. Don't know how many generations back they have to be the same breed to be considered a pure-bred. If both parents are golden-doodles but THEIR parents are goldens and poodles are the puppies a 'breed'? Who cares. I have had mutts that were just as 'good' as my GSD.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Nobody is degrading mutts. But we have BREEDS for a reason. German Shepherds are bred for a reason(from farm work to bomb sniffing), APBTs are bred for a reason, Patterdale terriers are bred for a reason.. They're bred for their own line of work and are bred to excel in it. When you mix two breeds for no real reason it takes away the purpose, the working purpose that is, of both breeds. And breeding two pet-breed dogs together? Don't even get me started... Pet breeds serve little purpose as it is other than companionship.

And not to mention there are millions of homeless mixed breeds in shelters (as well as ones that could be considered pure-bred), so it is not as if they are in danger of becoming extinct and need people to keep breeding them. We have an overabundance of dogs in general... 

My mutt is by far the best dog I've owned since my old male GSD. But I despise her breeder for breeding her parents just to keep up with the 'designer dog' trend.


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## Hercules (Aug 1, 2010)

My wife is VERY pro mixing but I have a thing for purebreds. I don't really like mutts all that much to be honest.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I think its getting a little silly 
bermadoodles
the rotticorso..
its all a little bit whacky these days


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Cross breed is just a fancy word for a mutt.


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## GSDLover2000 (Jul 9, 2013)

There should be a Don't Care option. I like some mixes, and don't like others.


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## TaylorGSDT (Dec 7, 2012)

I really enjoy GSD/ Border Collie mixes. And not just because I have one. I did some research after I got my male's mix finally figured out, and it turns out that they're actually really common. My male is 3/4 GSD and 1/4 BC, and is smart as can be with the size of a GSD and the speed and agility of a BC. He can run full speed and turn on a dime and reach full speed in seconds. When he bites, he's fast and hits hard, and his obedience is spot on. He's docile and great with kids and other animals of all sorts. I really think the GSD/BC mix is a great one.


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## sarah1366 (Nov 3, 2013)

I've had gsd x border collie and she was exceptionally clever sadly lost her two years ago and I adored her she was my baby she was like yours best of both worlds but she was completely gold with black mask and she was amazing to own si I'm not against it providing it's a good mix what I'm against is people breeding 2 different guarding breeds like gsd x rottweiler it's a bad mix cause your doubling up on the guarding instinct and whole lot harder to control but I do love my pure bred gsd some people just like to know what there getting 

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if there is an intelligent design , and commitment to see it through , steer it in a direction , I have no problem. 
Some "breeds" have introduction of another "breed" for genetic health reasons. Dalmatians coming to mind - two exeriments , one with collie? which failed , and one , successful , with near relative English Pointer . The later kept the breed type because the Pointer was already very similar and solved the uric acid problem.

"Breed" is a relatively new concept . 

When show and competition for a uniform type overtook utility and function , working dog users improved or created their own breeds cobbling together what already was at hand.
Fox Terriers, the terrier group as a whole , "THE" show star group of the early 1900 - 20's , 30's and on , became fashion accessory and terrible to use in the hunt . Then you had creations of Patterdale , the indomitable German Jagdterrier . I had the pleasure of meeting a Jagdterrier while waiting at the airport Customs office for an imported GSD to be cleared. One other dog on the same flight -- so while waiting got into a time passing conversation with the other person also waiting for his dog to be cleared. A German import - Jagdterrier , incredible history of the breed , and bold beyond its abilities !! 
Lurchers -- mixes , put together for speed.
The sled dogs --- lot of bird dog mixes there .

Dogo Argentino mixes of the mastiff group.
Airedales.
Newfoundland.
Leonberger .

were mixes intentional that became breeds.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

I'm not opposed to it if done correctly - meaning contracts, health testing and objective evaluation of the breeding dogs.

For example, I'm opposed to someone putting a Mini Poodle with a Lab to produce puppies when neither dog is health tested or titled in any way and then marketing them as non-shedding and hypoallergenic (common sense would dictate that not all puppies would inherit the Poodles coat).

However, I have no problem with a sport kennel crossing Border Collies and Staffies that have excelled in sports and passed health testing to create the next generation of awesome flyball, agility, whatever dogs.


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## GSxOwner (Jul 9, 2013)

Interesting topic, I can see why it was revived lol. I am very much for mutts, I am not for backyard breeders making money on the latest dog breed trend though. I would prefer that all breeding was done by responsible knowledgeable people but that seems a long ways away. Long...long ways away. I do feel people look down the "maltipoo" or whatever cross but they hardly asked to be born so I feel more sorry for the dog than anything. I really wish more of an effort was put into stopping backyard breeders, it's not like they are hard to find on kijiji or craigslist.

I am no expert and don't pretend to be but to be but I wonder if breeds like the pug or boston terrier could use a bit of cross breeding. Neither of those dogs have much a nose to me and seem to be plagued by breathing problems that were bred into them. My neighbor got some pure bred show line boston terrier and the thing had more problems in it's first 6 months of life than my 14 year old mutt had in her whole life. it needed surgery to remove soft tissue from back of it's throat/nose, needed it's nostrils widened, he lost his man parts and had his urethra rerouted or something :S oh and he over heats ridiculously easily and has these weird breathing attacks that you have to always watch for,needless to say he has not been bred or showed.

Now if done by people with the proper knowledge would it not be helpful to the breed(s) to cross it with something similar that has a longer snout!? It seems cruel to me to breed\inbreed pugs, boston's etc knowing that they are genetically inclined to have SO many problems. 

In my pup's kindergarten class we were the ONLY mix aka mutt in the class and to be honest she out performed every other pure bred dog. Granted I enjoy spending a lot of time training her but I could see confusion/annoyance on a lot of people's faces when people would ask what she was and I would just say "she's a german shepherd something" (although I do feel strongly it's BC lol! Everyone assumes she's a BC before anything else but I met her mum who is a GS). Some people looked genuinely confused and and annoyed when trying to puzzle her out.

Ages ago I watched an interesting BBC documentary called Pedigree Dogs Exposed on youtube. It was very interesting but I am sure there is much more to learn than can be crammed into an hour long show.

Just making friendly conversation


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

on the fence about this. if there was no crossbreading we wouldn't have gsd or any other breeds. what is the difference between what max did and the guy with the golden doodle. both had a specific goal.


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