# Miniature, Medium and Standard GSDs?



## Jax's Mom

Just thinking aloud here... not actually considering doing this or buying one (not enough years in my life to see one, probably)... but just to play devil's advocate...
I understand that the breed has a standard but what would be the problem in breeding different size categories of purebred GSDs the way poodles have been bred up and down in size?
I see the problem with just mixing another breed entirely to get the size you're looking for or indiscriminately breeding poor specimens to augment size. 
Part of the attraction to GSDs for me is the way that they have been meticulously bred in the past but I find it almost a shame that there wouldn't be a smaller version of the same breed available... Not like Miniature Pinschers are to *Doberman* Pinschers which are actually two completely separate breeds that just look similar, but actual dogs that share the same lineage but forked somewhere in their pedigree into different size categories.
I find it odd that the entire premise of the GSD is their intelligence and versatility but they'd only appear in one size?
Most of what sparked this in my head is that a SAR handler must be able to lift their dog. Mine is 70% of my bodyweight... the obvious answer to this would be to work with a smaller breed... I don't want to... I want a smaller GSD


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## mroutdoorsman

I do somewhat like the idea as I work SAR as well and having to carry Ze'eva out of the wilderness or any situation would somewhat suck. She is already 76lbs and will be, or should be, over 100lbs fully grown.


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## Lilie

Like what they've done with the Austrailian Shepherds?


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## Mrs.K

You already have lightweights out there. If people would actually breed to the darn standard there wouldn't be a darn need to think about stuff like that. 

There are small and lightweight GSD's out there. None of mine are actually over 80 pounds. Indra is a lightweight and I have not any problem of picking her up. 

What is darn wrong about following the standard? Instead people breed bigger and bigger and bigger dogs. It drives me crazy. Just follow the standard at least size wise because you already have so many choices just within the standard.


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## Kris10

The standard size range fits the jobs they are traditionally bred to do. Breeding up in size may affect agility and stamina, for example. Maybe look into getting a female on the smaller side to do SAR with. Or start lifting weights


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## Jax's Mom

Mrs.K said:


> What is darn wrong about following the standard? Instead people breed bigger and bigger and bigger dogs.


My dog is perfectly within standard, I'm the problem, my mother was on the small side and should never have been bred LOL

But I meant an even smaller dog than what's currently the lower end of the standard. So much could be done with them like service dogs for smaller people, SAR dogs that could search smaller places, etc.


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## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> My dog is perfectly within standard, I'm the problem, my mother was on the small side and should never have been bred LOL
> 
> But I meant an even smaller dog than what's currently the lower end of the standard. So much could be done with them like service dogs for smaller people, SAR dogs that could search smaller places, etc.


Then why not looking into a different breed that already comes with all the traits you are looking for?

There is so many breeds out there... seriously.


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## GSDElsa

Anytime you're focusing on something other than working ability and temperament, the quality of dog will suffer.

If you selectively breed down the size of GSD's, something else will suffer. Probably making them dogs pretty bad for things like SAR.


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## BlackthornGSD

I have 3 bitches who are between 50 and 60 pounds--they are all bottom of the standard, but within standard. There are some smaller GSDs out there if you look around.


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## Jax's Mom

If a different 30lb breed can compete in things like schutzhund, what's to stop a smaller GSD from competing and being evaluated like any other GSD? 
If we pretend for a moment that the standard *is* 30lbs, and they conform in every other way and could be titled, what's to say they wouldn't make a good dog?


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## 1der_girl

Are there people out there who are breeding "mini" shepherds? Just curious, as I have seen TONS of oversized GSDs, and am well aware of the King and Shiloh Shepherd phenomena... I just haven't personally come in contact with anyone who has paid $3,500 for their super-rare, super-special Teacup GSD


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## JKlatsky

A 30lb breed might be able to compete in SchH...but it's not particularly effective for the true purpose. Look outside of SchH as a sport...the purpose of the protection phase is protection. Ask a helper how easy it is to work a small dog compared to some of the larger dogs. Look at how easily a small dog like Mr. Murphy is moved around by the helper. This is not saying that the dog is a not a good dog, a small dog can show tremendous heart...but it's jsut not as effective. 

I also think that there is enough range in German Shepherds already bred to be effective for their jobs. I have a 66lb 2 year old male. Super fast and agile, and I can pretty easily pick him up and carry him around. I also have a 93lb male...not so suitable for agility or perhaps Urban SAR...but a man stopper on the protection field. The breed as a whole can contain characteristics that make it suitable for everything...but of course some individual dogs are better suited to specific tasks than others.

And of course those people who want a smaller German Shepherd...I say Get a Corgi.


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## BlackPuppy

I thought Corgi's were miniature German Shepherds.  No offense to Corgi owners who probably cringe when they hear it. Corgis are great dogs. 

There are plenty of herding dogs who probably have all the characteristics of GSD, and in different sizes. I chose Belgians because they are small and light, and don't have a reputation for hip problems,so much. Female Tervurans run around 45-50 pounds Males a little more. Then there's my Dutchie, who is 13 months old and 49 pounds. He is really close to the top of the breed standard at 24" I hope he doesn't grow more than another half inch. 

All my dogs are supper smart and really love to work. For some reason, people consider them large dogs (they are medium) and people keep their distance. I'm training Balto for Open Obedience right now and I'm shocked how quickly he is catching on. He's my heavy weight at 68 pounds. Yes, he's a sausage. He really needs to lose about 8 pounds. But, boy, is he strong! Even at 4 months old I could barely hang on to him.

And if you like the sports, all the Belgian varieties do bite work, not just Malinois. You should see the Laekens doing bite work! Here's a video of a Groenendael. Under all that coat is a lightweight dog.


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## BlackPuppy

Here's a Laekenois doing bite work. I love those Roughrag dogs, but this is not an isolated case.


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## AgileGSD

JKlatsky said:


> A 30lb breed might be able to compete in SchH...but it's not particularly effective for the true purpose. Look outside of SchH as a sport...the purpose of the protection phase is protection. Ask a helper how easy it is to work a small dog compared to some of the larger dogs. Look at how easily a small dog like Mr. Murphy is moved around by the helper. This is not saying that the dog is a not a good dog, a small dog can show tremendous heart...but it's jsut not as effective.


 Some Belgians aren't much bigger than that. My 2 year old Groenendael is 38lbs. My biggest girl is around 50 but the others are all 40-something. My male is I think under 55 but he gives an impression of being big  Belgians have the same height standard as GSDs but are lighter boned with little body fat. 



JKlatsky said:


> And of course those people who want a smaller German Shepherd...I say Get a Corgi.


 It would be rare to find a corgi with the drive, intensity and nerve of a well bred GSD. There are some flukes but most modern corgis are far removed from their working temperament. And that isn't even taking into account that they have been selectively bred for exaggerated physical features. As one Cardi breeder told me, "good Cardigan breeders select for exaggerated dwarf characteristics because that is what makes a Cardigan a Cardigan". Breeders of both types of corgis actively select against longer leg length and shorter backs - things which would make the dogs more functional in work and would help protect against injury. 

As for the original question, people overall seem to dislike the idea of creating new breeds or varieties. It's ok that size varieties and miniaturized versions exist in long established breeds (Poodles anyone?) but it's not ok to think about creating new ones


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## Jax's Mom

AgileGSD said:


> As for the original question, people overall seem to dislike the idea of creating new breeds or varieties. It's ok that size varieties and miniaturized versions exist in long established breeds (Poodles anyone?) but it's not ok to think about creating new ones


This is what I keep asking myself. When was it decided that all acceptable breeds have been established, anything that deviates from those standards is an abomination, there are plenty of breeds to choose from, therefore we're done here?


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## wyominggrandma

the problem with breeding dogs down is size is there are always going to be folks that can't decide when enough is enough and you start getting lots of health issues.
Mini Aussies, tiny tiny toy dogs, etc as they get smaller, there are more kidney issues, more eye issues, more teeth issues, hypocalcimic issues. The smaller they go, the more problems it seems to make.And no matter how good someone tries to be making them smaller, the health issues will get bigger and bigger.
There are enough health issues with "standard" breeds, why make more problems trying to go smaller. Plenty of small GSD out there not bred to be small, just genetics make them small.


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## Whiteshepherds

Mrs.K said:


> Then why not looking into a different breed that already comes with all the traits you are looking for?
> 
> There is so many breeds out there... seriously.





Jax's Mom said:


> This is what I keep asking myself. When was it decided that all acceptable breeds have been established, anything that deviates from those standards is an abomination, there are plenty of breeds to choose from, therefore we're done here?


Good point Jax.

If Max had felt this way we wouldn't have the GSD. 

If other people didn't have visions and ideals of their own, the breed would still the same as it was in 1900, or 1935, or 1960...

People have a tendency to capture a place in time where the breed suited their ideals and call that the "real" GSD. (for any breed actually) They lock in their heels and say "no more changes" or insist that the changes that do take place are wrong. 

Because the breed was developed and is controlled by humans, you can expect the evolution to continue based on the needs, ideals and desires of the people who breed and buy the GSD.


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## RubyTuesday

I like 'em big. Damm me, let my soul rot, but I DO like 'em big. Specifically, tall, leggy & lean.

My *personal* biases aside, truly good dogs come in one size & ONE size only...Say from 5-150lbs, a handful of inches to mebbe 36 or 38...

Now, GSDs are admittedly more constrained, but an 'undersized' GSD, a GSD that otherwise displays correct breed personality, temperament & characteristics, is indeed (IMO) very much a GSD. 

A fundamental characteristic of the breed is its versatility. TRUE working breeds generally encompass a considerable size range. IMO, GSD, the most versatile of working breeds, should not be more limited than working Pits or Am Bulldogs. Artificial constraints won't benefit a true working breed. Is this still a 'true working breed' or is it more accurately a 'sport/competition breed'?


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## codmaster

mroutdoorsman said:


> I do somewhat like the idea as I work SAR as well and having to carry Ze'eva out of the wilderness or any situation would somewhat suck. She is already 76lbs and will be, or should be, over 100lbs fully grown.


 
How about weight lifting training for the handlers? (just kidding!)


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## codmaster

Jax's Mom said:


> My dog is perfectly within standard, I'm the problem, my mother was on the small side and should never have been bred LOL
> 
> But I meant an even smaller dog than what's currently the lower end of the standard. So much could be done with them like service dogs for smaller people, SAR dogs that could search smaller places, etc.


 
The standard for females is 22" - 24" - that is a small dog, esp. at the lower end. One problem is that so many GSD's are over the standard.


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## codmaster

Jax's Mom said:


> If a different 30lb breed can compete in things like schutzhund, what's to stop a smaller GSD from competing and being evaluated like any other GSD?
> If we pretend for a moment that the standard *is* 30lbs, and they conform in every other way and could be titled, what's to say they wouldn't make a good dog?


A 30 lb GSD - would be a cute little dog. 

Is that a male or female that you would like to be 30 lb? That would be roughly 1/3 of the size of a regular male GSD.

Doesn't exactly sound like a man stopper! But would be easier to carry that is for sure.


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## NancyJ

My intact and fairly muscled male is all of 75lbs which is not so big and is a very good working size.....big enough to jump into a truck and small enough to crawl under many things.......It would be tough to carry him far but he can pretty much get anywhere he needs to without. My female who is not working is 50....also a good size.


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## GSDElsa

Whiteshepherds said:


> If other people didn't have visions and ideals of their own, the breed would still the same as it was in 1900, or 1935, or 1960...
> 
> Because the breed was developed and is controlled by humans, you can expect the evolution to continue based on the needs, ideals and desires of the people who breed and buy the GSD.


Most people think the dog that the breed started with is the ideal dog and it's fragmented horribly an unideally. 

The breed is still and "all-purpose working dog." There is no NEED for a 30 pound GSD. It's taking out the "all=purpose" of it. If someone wants a 30 pound dog, find another breed.


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## Chris Wild

Whenever these discussions come up it seems so many people who are quick to throw the standard out the window seem to assume it is arbitrary and thus meaningless. The fact is that most things in breed standards are there for a reason. Usually very good reasons. And the same goes for the GSD standard.

The standard allows for dogs anywhere between 22 and 26" tall, 48 and 88lbs. Dogs large enough to do effective protection work, yet small enough to work in tight spaces if need be. That already IS quite a large range in size, specifically put into place to accomodate the wide range of jobs for this breed, and if someone needs a more specialized dog in terms of size, they can be found already within the breed. A 26" 88 pounder is more than big enough to take out a most any human. And anyone who can't pick up and carry a 22" 48 pounder probably has no business doing SAR in the first place.

And even within dogs bred to the standard there are deviations. There are dogs not intentionally bred to be oversized or undersized, but come out that way anyway. If someone needs or wants a larger dog for some reason, there are plenty of oversized examples of the bred that can be had. Likewise, while not as common, undersized examples can be found too. Bigger and smaller dogs that resulted from balanced, well planned, standard breedings rather than intentionally breeding for any one specific trait like size.


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## AgileGSD

wyominggrandma said:


> Mini Aussies, tiny tiny toy dogs, etc as they get smaller, there are more kidney issues, more eye issues, more teeth issues, hypocalcimic issues. The smaller they go, the more problems it seems to make.And no matter how good someone tries to be making them smaller, the health issues will get bigger and bigger.
> There are enough health issues with "standard" breeds, why make more problems trying to go smaller. Plenty of small GSD out there not bred to be small, just genetics make them small.


 Genetics make Mini Aussies small, Chihuahuas even smaller and would be what make Mini GSDs smaller than other GSDs too  Toy sized dogs can have toy specific health issues due to their size but I'd like to see proof that 30lb dogs vs. 60lb dogs have more health issues. 



Jax's Mom said:


> This is what I keep asking myself. When was it decided that all acceptable breeds have been established, anything that deviates from those standards is an abomination, there are plenty of breeds to choose from, therefore we're done here?


 That seems to be the attitude of many dog people for sure. But the fact is, times change and what people want changes too. GSDs original purpose was to tend livestock, a job which is quite outdated. If GSDs couldn't change with the times or people firmly believed the only thing a GSD should be bred for is tending, they may not be here today. Sadly, this seems to be going on with Border Collies right now. Working BC people blame show and sport breeders for those dogs out numbering the working bred BC but the BC's job in America is becoming outdated. Far more people in America are interested in BCs as performance dogs than as a farm dogs. They aren't taking away from farmers by wanting a BC for agility. Many farmers are opting for using ATVs to do the work dogs used to do. And the breed has competition for farmers who still find a good dog useful - working Aussies, Kelpies, working ACDs and work-bred mixes created for specific jobs. I think working bred BCs are worth preserving but it may have to be done largely through artificial testing, much the way working GSDs have been preserved through breeders using SchH. 




GSDElsa said:


> The breed is still and "all-purpose working dog." There is no NEED for a 30 pound GSD. It's taking out the "all=purpose" of it. If someone wants a 30 pound dog, find another breed.


 There would be a need for them if enough people decided they wanted a GSD in looks and temperament but in a smaller size. That's pretty much why there was a "need" for Mini Aussies.

Someone decided there was a "need" for a smaller, longhaired sighthound so Silken Windhounds were created. And other people agreed. They are a relatively new breed but no less a sighthound than the ancient Saluki. 

Personally agree with it or not, people in modern times are finding a need for variations of popular breeds and purpose-bred mixes. The new record breaking flyball team is all BC/Staffy mixes, all purposely bred for flyball. Is there a need to breed BC/Staffy mixes? Obviously enough people feel there is that the people breeding them have waiting lists of Flyball homes for their litters. Times are changing.


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## hunterisgreat

If someone wants to venture out and create a new breed... well no one really has a right to say they can't. They all started from the same stock anyway


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## GSDElsa

AgileGSD said:


> There would be a need for them if enough people decided they wanted a GSD in looks and temperament but in a smaller size. That's pretty much why there was a "need" for Mini Aussies.
> 
> Someone decided there was a "need" for a smaller, longhaired sighthound so Silken Windhounds were created. And other people agreed. They are a relatively new breed but no less a sighthound than the ancient Saluki.


Apples to oranges comparison.

Sighthounds come in all shapes and sizes. "All-purpose" dogs that can do anything from herding to SAR to protection to drug detection do not do equally well at 30 pounds nor 150 pounds. The GSD BUILD goes along with their mental capacity...the smarts and willingness to do *IT ALL*.

30 pound GSD's would be virtually worthless as protection dogs. So that ability would naturally go to the wayside. Even as a drug dog a large range of height would be lost and make them less useful (how many times do you see a drug dog standing on its hind legs to reach a high area? A lot). 

Like Chris said--there already is a considerable range in the GSD weight and if you can't pick up a 50 pound dog then you likely have no business out there "working" along side your dog. You also need to be able to help carry a human out of the woods if you're in SAR...and you're worried about a dog? And most SAR people probably NEVER have to carry their dog, period, without worrying about being bred smaller. 

The breed won't maintain it's purpose if you decide to breed that much smaller....so don't pretend it will.

Instead of worrying about creating a new breed every other day, I think people should worry a little bit more about breeders today maintaining the GSD the way it should be.


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## Jax's Mom

codmaster said:


> A 30 lb GSD - would be a cute little dog.
> 
> Is that a male or female that you would like to be 30 lb? That would be roughly 1/3 of the size of a regular male GSD.
> 
> Doesn't exactly sound like a man stopper! But would be easier to carry that is for sure.


The "Standard GSD" would still remain the same great "man stopper" they always have been, the "medium" and "miniature" would just be scaled down versions of that, to be used by people who don't require the size for "man stopping" capabilities 
I'd imagine the "medium" to be about 50% of the size of a "standard" and the "miniature" to be 50% of the "medium".
I haven't quite come up with the schematics for this but I'm guessing scaling down purebred, health tested, titled GSDs would be no short undertaking.


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## Mrs.K

Yeah, but why not going for another breed then? Seriously, why ruining the breed even more? If you want a smaller dog go for a shelti, or a JRT, or an Australian Shepherd or a Cattle dog. If I wanted a smaller breed I'd go for a cattle dog to be honest. Those dogs are awesome.


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## Jax's Mom

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, but why not going for another breed then? Seriously, why ruining the breed even more? If you want a smaller dog go for a shelti, or a JRT, or an Australian Shepherd or a Cattle dog. If I wanted a smaller breed I'd go for a cattle dog to be honest. Those dogs are awesome.


I'm not suggesting I actually want to undertake doing something like this or even in the market for buying one if they did exist... but those other little dogs have entirely different personalities, drives and abilities. 
Even if someone DID do something like this, I don't see how it would ruin the breed if existing GSDs just continued along their intended path?


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## GSDElsa

Jax's Mom said:


> Even if someone DID do something like this, I don't see how it would ruin the breed if existing GSDs just continued along their intended path?


It's been pointed out several times that they would not be able to continue on the same path because they would be useless for some of the main things they are used for........

Completely change the purpose of the breed.....it's not the same breed anymore and hence been "ruined."


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## NancyJ

If someone wants to take a GSD and use it in a breeding program for some other purpose (for example the Shiloh) I don't really have a problem......(Other than the ridiculous claims that the Shiloh is the original GSD)......We have and will continue to create new dog breeds.......problem is those are usually puppy millers who don't have a large enough foundation stock to have adequate genetic diversity.

But if folks do that call it "Fred" or some other thing, not a GSD which it no longer is.

But if it is a GSD. It is a working dog and the origins in herding and police service work still have application today (moreso the police service work but the HGH foundation brings a lot to the table for police service work).........I am just so glad that it IS possible to find good (and sound) working stock nowadays.......I was beginning to wonder.......


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## Jax's Mom

GSDElsa said:


> Completely change the purpose of the breed.....it's not the same breed anymore and hence been "ruined."


I understand how the "other" version of the breed could be considered "ruined" by those who disapproved but I don't see how the original breed that's left alone would be ruined.

If I breed my GSD to my lab (no one panic, she's spayed), because I might think Lab/GSD puppies would be cute, does that make my neighbor's purebred/titled/perfectly-conforming-to-current-standards GSD "ruined"?


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## GSDElsa

Jax's Mom said:


> I understand how the "other" version of the breed could be considered "ruined" by those who disapproved but I don't see how the original breed that's left alone would be ruined.
> 
> If I breed my GSD to my lab (no one panic, she's spayed), because I might think Lab/GSD puppies would be cute, does that make my neighbor's purebred/titled/perfectly-conforming-to-current-standards GSD "ruined"?


I don't know what you're talking about???

*It's been pointed out several times that they would not be able to continue on the same path because they would be useless for some of the main things they are used for........

Completely change the purpose of the breed.....it's not the same breed anymore and hence been "ruined."*

I'm talking about your "new and improved" 30 pound "GSD." If you have one, you've completely changed the purpose of the breed and your "new and improved" verison of the GSD is, in fact, a ruined version of what a true GSD should be.


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## NancyJ

Well lets talk reality here since the premise was "as a SAR handler" you would want a smaller dog. But really, if your dog is hurt in the woods, you are part of a team and the team will get it out just like another teammate. In 10 years, I can't think of when I have really had to carry my dog....I can think of some instances where a smaller size may have been nice but then more others where I realized his size really is just right...... 

You don't want a dog so big that he looses out on endurance and agility or so small he can't cover an adequate amount of ground.

A smaller dog can do the job but we keep going back to working stock to secure working dogs. And working stock is a good medium size because that is what actually works. The same breeding that produces dogs suitable for police service is likely to produce a dog suitable for SAR...maybe one of the smaller ones in the litter, may be one with less pronounced fighting drives, etc.

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Maybe here is a more salient question. If you stay within a closed studbook and focus on breeding for a specific type, that type is going to have a much more narrowly defined gene pool. The intnese inbreeding of the German Showlines by the Martin Brothers brought in all kinds of new health problems. Black and Red saddle pattern and color are NOT the dominant type...to get that consistently you have to do more inbreeding than is healthy.....that is why I cringe when I see like "breeding for blacks" black is recessive. It is fine for a black to show up but not to breed for it. Same thing for an un-naturally small size.....


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## Chris Wild

jocoyn said:


> Maybe here is a more salient question. If you stay within a closed studbook and focus on breeding for a specific type, that type is going to have a much more narrowly defined gene pool. The intnese inbreeding of the German Showlines by the Martin Brothers brought in all kinds of new health problems. Black and Red saddle pattern and color are NOT the dominant type...to get that consistently you have to do more inbreeding than is healthy.....that is why I cringe when I see like "breeding for blacks" black is recessive. It is fine for a black to show up but not to breed for it. Same thing for an un-naturally small size.....


And this is very much a real concern.

If the goal is to breed mini-GSDs from the GSD genepool, well getting to those 30lb dogs would be very difficult. The genetics just aren't there within the breed. There are smaller dogs yes, though not that small, and over time those smaller ones might be bred down even smaller. But since they still carried the full range of GSD genetics regarding size, even if they didn't express those genes themselves, those normal and big dogs would still be produced sometimes. Just as standard sized breedings can produce over and undersized dogs. The only way to cut down on that happening would be to select specifically FOR size above everything else, taking a breed that already doesn't have a huge genepool and making it much smaller to isolate those few dogs carrying these mini-GSD genes, and then heavily inbreed on those dogs. Talk about genetic bottleneck in a breed that is already plagued by that in many ways. Taking vastly different dogs from diverse genetic backgrounds, as happened with the creation of most breeds, such as the 4 main regional dog types that were used to create the GSD in the first place, then breeding them together and then inbreeding on the ones who showed the desired range of traits is one thing. Taking dogs from a breed that has already been heavily concentrated once, at it's creation, and that is only 100 years old and thus already doesn't have a diverse genetic background, and doing more concentrated inbreeding on a few select individuals is something else entirely.

Now add in not knowing what other genes may piggyback on those mini genes, so what problems might be brought about and concentrated on by this selection process. We already know that any single trait focused breeding, regardless of what that trait is and if it's acceptable by the standard or not, is a bad idea, and this would take it even further. Sure, one *might* obtain a line of mini-GSDs, though given the genetics of the breed it's a big might. But at what cost?

The other alternative would be to open the stud book to other breeds, and make mutts. This would make the size more easily and quickly achieved, but the introduction of genes from those other breeds brings in their physical and mental characteristics as well as their health problems, so while one could achieve small dogs pretty quickly, getting them to look or act anything like a GSD would take longer, and even longer yet to make any of the results predictable or consistent.


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## AgileGSD

GSDElsa said:


> 30 pound GSD's would be virtually worthless as protection dogs. So that ability would naturally go to the wayside. Even as a drug dog a large range of height would be lost and make them less useful (how many times do you see a drug dog standing on its hind legs to reach a high area? A lot).


 There is a toy sized drug dog a few counties over from me 



GSDElsa said:


> The breed won't maintain it's purpose if you decide to breed that much smaller....so don't pretend it will.


 Plenty of GSDs are being bred who will never do protection work and who never could. GSDs are being bred who have generic temperaments with little work ethic and/or low drive. And they are still considered GSDs. Some are even considered to be very well bred GSDs. It isn't as though GSDs aren't already split into many fragments of individual group's ideals. 



GSDElsa said:


> Instead of worrying about creating a new breed every other day, I think people should worry a little bit more about breeders today maintaining the GSD the way it should be.


 I am not sure how having a smaller version of a GSD would have much impact on breeders who are maintaining working GSDs and buyers who want them. 

I'm not saying someone should create a smaller version of a GSD but it is certainly possible. It has already been successfully done in other breeds. If such a dog was created, I think there would be interest in them. I mostly find it funny that people don't have a problem with existing "mini"s of various breeds but generally have a problem with the idea of new ones. Someone recently asked me why anyone would get a Mini Aussie instead of an Aussie and what is the purpose of them. I said I suppose it's the same purpose as to why people get Mini Bull Terriers instead of Bull Terriers or Mini Poodles instead of Standards. Selective breeding or dogs has always been about what there is a need or desire for. Left to their own dogs would all look kinda like this:


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## Catu

Wow!! This board is getting scarier and scarier every passing day.


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