# Bloat or Torsion in GSDs



## xcaliburfarms1

I've been in GSDs for over 40 years off and on and have yet, knock on wood, to have a GSD experience this condition. BUT, I have heard of so many who have had dogs go through this, have surgery, or even die from this. I've also heard so many schools of thought as to why the GSD is one of the top five breeds to experience this condition. If there is such a factor as Dark DNA upon which attaches the marker for the incidence of a predisposition for a dog to carry or experience an incidence of bloat/torsion. then perhaps somewhere there is a database of dogs known to have experienced B/T or who have been related directly to a dog that has had B/T. Does anyone here wish to divulge names of dogs that may have experienced or been related directly to GSDs with Bloat or Torsion? This information would be of interest to other GSD breeders or people who may wish to acquire a GSD who might wish to have this info so they would not have a dog in their life that would inherit this predisposition and then lose their beloved pet. Life is short and I've had many more deaths of dogs with inherited conditions that I wish I had known about and perhaps I would not have suffered the loss of those dogs...I could have made an informed decision instead that would have prevented so much pain. Thanks to anyone who wishes to put the info out there for compilation of such a database. There is OFA who compiles a similar list of hip and elbow dysplasia and others who compile lists of dogs with heart defects, eye disorders, etc. Perhaps it is time we compile this list as well.


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## Whiteshepherds

I found this database. Can't tell if it's new or not. Bloat is in the database.
German Shephrrd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://www.gsdbbr.org/

There's also a genetics database for white shepherds, bloat is also on that database.


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## hunterisgreat

The simple fact is there isn't any clear understanding yet of the cause other than a strong correlation to chest depth particularly relative to waist size, and activity before and after large amounts of food & water consumption. Even then, dogs still get it when you didn't break any rules. Its simply a fact of life that you are taking on risk when getting a large dog, in the same you are taking the risk of broken bones in the very danty boned dogs, that a very high drive dog can have EIC (excercise induced collapse). Danes are estimated to have 1/3rd get bloat. If you get a dane, you have to all but prepare for bloat. There is lots of conflicting info (feed elevated, don't feed elevated, diet type, etc). If your dog has ever burped, then you know they are swallowing air. If they are swallowing air, the risk of bloat is increased

The good thing about bloat though (if there is a good thing), is if you're that paranoid, you can preemptively prevent it with a simple surgical procedure for ~$500. 

My dog had torsion bloat, and there is no history in his lines of it. Never had any GI problems before or after. I believe the exceptional leanness I was keeping him at (recommended by trainer) led to his waistline being very small compared to chest, and this contributed significantly.

To compound the problem... so many people don't even know what it is, and as such when their dog up and dies abruptly, it may not be ID'ed as bloat, so we don't even have really good figures on how prevalent it is.

I believe the only way to "breed it out" is to breed smaller chested, smaller GSDs. But then we aren't breeding GSD's anymore. There is no such thing as risk-free in life. We will always have to accept a certain amount of risk


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## hunterisgreat

Yikes.. just read a study showed the average weight for dogs with bloat is 58lbs (across all breeds of course)


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## Samba

Every good GSD warrants a gastropexy here. Fortunately it is less than half of 500.00. Darned torsion..grrrrr.


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## wildo

Samba said:


> Fortunately it is less than half of 500.00.


-off topic-
May I ask why you didn't just say it is less than 250.00?? hahahahaa!!


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## hunterisgreat

Samba said:


> Every good GSD warrants a gastropexy here. Fortunately it is less than half of 500.00. Darned torsion..grrrrr.


Really? Thats the annoying thing about vets.. prices fluctuate so wildly from place to place for the same service

I will probably do this with all future male GSD's. Females I don't know if the risks out weigh the benefits.


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## Samba

I don't know how frequent it is in females. 
I have known one Female GSD and one Swissy bitch that torsioned. My friend did her two females and my vet pexied his girl. My females aren't pexied and I do worry.


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## hunterisgreat

Samba said:


> I don't know how frequent it is in females.
> I have known one Female GSD and one Swissy bitch that torsioned. My friend did her two females and my vet pexied his girl. My females aren't pexied and I do worry.


The stats range from twice as like for males, to 4 times as likely. Def much more likely at any rate. I may do my female sometime this year. Dog expenses are stacking up on me. Possibly have to do crowns on my male's canines


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## Nelly

If it gets to the point where dogs have to have preventative surgery because people are afraid their dogs might bloat isn't that a sure sign of the breed's deteriorating health ?? 

Is it better to ask what type of environment and selection pressure there has been/currently is that allows dogs with all sorts of issues to be bred from that in decades past would either have had a hard time living or would have died without all the medical advancements available today.

I don't have any stats on bloat in wild dogs or large working breeds in a non- western environment but it would be really interesting information to find out. If bloat was such an issue in those type of dogs, you'd think populations would have trouble thriving.


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## Samba

I don't know what the cause is, but it does occur in many breeds. In German Shepherds i don't think any lines are free of it. Perhaps it is the large chest depth.

When selecting animals to create a breed, one can not select only the good and leave off all the bad. It doesn't work that way. If selecting for only health characteristics, other desirable breed characteristics may be lost.


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## Lesley1905

I hear some vets not recommending the gastroplexy unless the dog has bloated before. I also had a friend where the vet recommended doing it while his female was getting spayed. I work at a vet clinic and need to ask both of their opinions on it. I'd be interested in doing it with Brody once I get him fixed.


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## Nelly

Samba said:


> I don't know what the cause is, but it does occur in many breeds. In German Shepherds i don't think any lines are free of it. Perhaps it is the large chest depth.
> 
> When selecting animals to create a breed, one can not select only the good and leave off all the bad. It doesn't work that way. If selecting for only health characteristics, other desirable breed characteristics may be lost.


Yes but nowadays a dog can have its stomach stapled after suffering bloat and continue to be bred from. I don't think anyone would seriously suggest breeding from such a dog to maintain other desireable characteristics. When the breed was being created such dogs with health issues would have fallen out of the genepool naturally, without medical care available today. The selection would have been there.


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## Samba

The average age for bloat is perhaps around 7 years old. The dog may have been bred and a couple of generations of progeny bred.

I don't know how easy bloat would be to breed out of the breed entirely.

It did not go away during the many years of breeding when prophylactic gastropexy was not very available.


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## Nelly

Samba said:


> The average age for bloat is perhaps around 7 years old. The dog may have been bred and a couple of generations of progeny bred.


True. It gets complicated re: age.



> I don't know how easy bloat would be to breed out of the breed entirely.
> 
> It did not go away during the many years of breeding when prophylactic gastropexy was not very available.


I wouldn't expect it to go away entirely just like many other health issues. The genes are always there, just the % of incidences change in either decreasing or increasing.


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## Samba

Of course, whenever possible, it seems wise to not breed animals who have bloated or their close relatives. There really may be a genetic component to this. Toy poodles can bloat and it may be due to their shared genetics with larger poodles. Terriers don't bloat with exception of one breed.

I have known lines of GSDs where bloat was too common, even in the females of those lines.


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## hunterisgreat

Simple fact is large deep chest = bloat risk. 1/3 of Danes get bloat. GSDs get bloat Bc of size. Those are the shakes. Can't do a whole lot about it without making a gsd not gsd like anymore. Just like bulldogs have over heat and breathing issues. Sure you can breed it out, but you don't have a bulldog anymore


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## hunterisgreat

Samba said:


> Of course, whenever possible, it seems wise to not breed animals who have bloated or their close relatives. There really may be a genetic component to this. Toy poodles can bloat and it may be due to their shared genetics with larger poodles. Terriers don't bloat with exception of one breed.
> 
> I have known lines of GSDs where bloat was too common, even in the females of those lines.


I thing that's probably more a factor of depth/breadth of chest and waist characteristics than anything else. If all other aspects of the dog were strong, I thing the best bet is breeding to a more mal shaped gsd to shrink the chest a touch. But then your taking away what made that line unique. At this point there isn't a strong amount of data to say a whole lot beyond the bigger the dog the higher the risk, and don't exercise before/after meals/water


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## hunterisgreat

Nelly said:


> If it gets to the point where dogs have to have preventative surgery because people are afraid their dogs might bloat isn't that a sure sign of the breed's deteriorating health ??
> 
> Is it better to ask what type of environment and selection pressure there has been/currently is that allows dogs with all sorts of issues to be bred from that in decades past would either have had a hard time living or would have died without all the medical advancements available today.
> 
> I don't have any stats on bloat in wild dogs or large working breeds in a non- western environment but it would be really interesting information to find out. If bloat was such an issue in those type of dogs, you'd think populations would have trouble thriving.


The consequences being so high, and the time to correct so low, it's rather cheap insurance. The vast majority of GSDs won't bloat, and even fewer females... But if yours did and died, that $250 wouldn't seem like such a dumb idea


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## hunterisgreat

What really sucks. I just read a study that followed several thousand dogs of high risk breeds, and of the GVD cases 1 year later, 52% were blamed on elevated bowls  which I did at the time, as it was my understanding I was reducing the risk, not drastically increasing it


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## hunterisgreat

hunterisgreat said:


> The consequences being so high, and the time to correct so low, it's rather cheap insurance. The vast majority of GSDs won't bloat, and even fewer females... But if yours did and died, that $250 wouldn't seem like such a dumb idea


Correction. I recent study says male and female bloat rates are not statistically different


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## Nelly

hunterisgreat said:


> Simple fact is large deep chest = bloat risk. 1/3 of Danes get bloat. GSDs get bloat Bc of size. Those are the shakes. Can't do a whole lot about it without making a gsd not gsd like anymore. Just like bulldogs have over heat and breathing issues. Sure you can breed it out, but you don't have a bulldog anymore


I don't think it's just size. A contributing factor maybe but I think if size was such a strong decider I would personally feel that bloat/torsion would have more of a negative impact on the breed, in other large working breeds (non-western countries) and large wild canids. I just think there are other things going on to cause bloat. 

Danes are huge compared to gsds and bigger than they were when they were working dogs. Same with bulldogs, without the physical features which cause some health problems they would look like bulldogs in the past, when fitness was likely a more important factor in breeding them.


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## Nelly

hunterisgreat said:


> The consequences being so high, and the time to correct so low, it's rather cheap insurance. The vast majority of GSDs won't bloat, and even fewer females... But if yours did and died, that $250 wouldn't seem like such a dumb idea


Sorry but if I had to have my dogs stomach stapled and surgery done simply because they are gsds- I find that ridiculous. If there was someway to find out that my dog would have an almost definate chance of bloating, perhaps I'd go ahead with the Surgery, but not as a routine thing because of the breed.


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## hunterisgreat

Nelly said:


> I don't think it's just size. A contributing factor maybe but I think if size was such a strong decider I would personally feel that bloat/torsion would have more of a negative impact on the breed, in other large working breeds (non-western countries) and large wild canids. I just think there are other things going on to cause bloat.
> 
> Danes are huge compared to gsds and bigger than they were when they were working dogs. Same with bulldogs, without the physical features which cause some health problems they would look like bulldogs in the past, when fitness was likely a more important factor in breeding them.


Its not only size... but the strongest correlations are what the studies all refer to as "anatomical predisposition", which is defined as higher depth/breadth ratios of the dog's chest and higher girth of chest to girth of waist ratios. Its definitely more likely with bigger dogs but I would bet thats due purely to the fact that 5 lbs of fluid in a bag is a little more able to swing itself over when moved than say, a tiny bag filled with 1/10 of a lb of fluid. regardless, toy breeds have been reported as well. No dog... no animal for that matter is immune to bloat. If a cow eats a large amount of fresh grass of a certain kind it will bloat (sourced from wikipedia). Its not a dog only thing. Some dogs get chronic non-torsion bloat which while can be fatal in extreme cases, can usually be treated with pepcid. These dogs seem much more likely in the collected data to get full torsion bloat, however I wonder if this not directly genetic related per se, but merely the fact that they are on a diet conducive to large amounts of gas production and so more likely to get bloat anyway. Its very hard to draw real irrefutable conclusions from any of the data, and anyone who goes and reads all the studies that have been done or are being done will realize the overwhelming answer is "we don't know for sure why this happens, but it seems to be related to..." The only genetic link is simply that, big chested, "anatomically predisposed" dogs produce more big chested, "anatomically predisposed" dogs. Add below that for 10 years or so everyone said to use elevated bowls and now we've really clouded the little data we have. Alot of deaths that said "its because its a dane" or "you ran him after eating" may have really been that darn elevated bowl... 

Up until recently vet's gave guidance to feed from elevated bowls... indeed you can roll into any pet store and see tons of elevated food bowls still on the shelves. I'm tempted to email the chains references to the strong correlation between bloat and elevated bowls and tell them to stop selling them, or atleast put up a warning to consumers before they buy. Given the emerging data to show this caused a strong correlation I think the recent appearance of an increase in bloat cases may just be due to this... or it maybe that more causes of death are correctly determined now. There are now studies showing playing before or after eating don't have an effect in reducing or increasing the chances.

Basically, everything we do that deviates from nature's millions of years of honing the species seems to be a contributing factor.


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## hunterisgreat

Nelly said:


> Sorry but if I had to have my dogs stomach stapled and surgery done simply because they are gsds- I find that ridiculous. If there was someway to find out that my dog would have an almost definate chance of bloating, perhaps I'd go ahead with the Surgery, but not as a routine thing because of the breed.


Not b/c they are GSDs. Because they are a large deep chested breed. There is NO way to know. Its some contributing factors, plus a dice roll. Thats all you get. You either accept the risk and don't do it, or you mitigate the risk with $250. $250 is not even a year of flea, tick, and heartworm meds. I'll probably do the op to all my dogs, from here on out, regardless of breed


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## Samba

Unfortunately, after witnessing several incidence of torsion and losing a lovely male to it, I would do gastropexy prophylactically. It is much harder to do a pexy in an emergency situation and I would want to avoid that. A friend who is cardiology vet just pexied Lab. 

I don't think dysplasia is going to be out of the breed soon either. I take a risk oc that each time I get a GSD. Many of the GSD genetic problems are not just due to show breeding either. They are in working lines too.


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## DeeMcB

2 Questions:

1) What level of exercise are we talking about; and,
2) How long after eating/drinking should you wait?

Ezra eats at 7:30am and we go to whatever is scheduled for his exercise that day (play dates, hike, bike, run, whatever) about 9:00. Play dates, depending on who they are with, might be just playing chase around a field or could be heavy wrestling, body slams, etc. I realize that he's not even a year old yet and that it becomes more of a risk as he ages. 

Right now he gets 1 - 1.25 # of raw for breakfast. When we move to one meal a day it will be twice that. Should I be waiting longer after he eats?


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## hunterisgreat

Keep it at twice per day. Slower eating (less air makes it in), and less weight bouncing around in the stomach (the reason it's theorized exercise should be restricted why the stomach is full)


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## Nelly

hunterisgreat said:


> Its not only size... but the strongest correlations are what the studies all refer to as "anatomical predisposition", which is defined as higher depth/breadth ratios of the dog's chest and higher girth of chest to girth of waist ratios. Its definitely more likely with bigger dogs but I would bet thats due purely to the fact that 5 lbs of fluid in a bag is a little more able to swing itself over when moved than say, a tiny bag filled with 1/10 of a lb of fluid. regardless, toy breeds have been reported as well. No dog... no animal for that matter is immune to bloat.


Thanks but I realise their are anatomical characteristics which can contribute to the risk factor, I was just pointing out before I think there is something else going on internally than simply the shape being the major cause. 



> Not b/c they are GSDs. Because they are a large deep chested breed. There is NO way to know. Its some contributing factors, plus a dice roll. Thats all you get. You either accept the risk and don't do it, or you mitigate the risk with $250. $250 is not even a year of flea, tick, and heartworm meds. I'll probably do the op to all my dogs, from here on out, regardless of breed


It is not a cost issue, it is the mentality that this should be routine or more commonly done just because of breed. It is not a good sign of people's confidence in the breed's health. I will say again if I had to do that to my dogs preventatively just to keep them alive, I feel that is just so wrong with how we keep our animals.


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## LisaT

Nelly said:


> Thanks but I realise their are anatomical characteristics which can contribute to the risk factor, I was just pointing out before I think there is something else going on internally than simply the shape being the major cause.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a cost issue, it is the mentality that this should be routine or more commonly done just because of breed. It is not a good sign of people's confidence in the breed's health. I will say again if I had to do that to my dogs preventatively just to keep them alive, I feel that is just so wrong with how we keep our animals.



I agree on both accounts.

I think it's more than just about the anatomical characteristics too.

Also, gastroplexy is not without its own side effects in some dogs. The stomach is meant to be free moving and not tacked, and there is at least a slight effect on digestive quality, an, in some dogs, perhaps more than a slight effect.

Also, you have to be careful how some of these studies read. Because 52% of those bloated ate from raised bowls, that does not mean that it was caused by raised bowls.


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## BowWowMeow

I assume you are talking about the Purdue study? There have been a lot of problems identified with that study. 

I know dogs who have bloated in the middle of the night (hours after eating, hours after exercise), dogs who have bloated in the morning (before breakfast or eating), dogs who have bloated who are fed raw, kibble, canned, raised bowls, non-raised bowls...the only common denominator has been stress. 

I have had 2 dogs bloat now and lucky neither had torsion. In both cases I acted quickly and gave them either activated charcoal or Gas X or both. 

The best thing you can do is to be aware of the potential, know the signs and have a plan of action that includes giving them something that absorbs gas and getting to the vet ASAP.


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## fkeeley

BowWowMeow said:


> I assume you are talking about the Purdue study? There have been a lot of problems identified with that study.
> 
> I know dogs who have bloated in the middle of the night (hours after eating, hours after exercise), dogs who have bloated in the morning (before breakfast or eating), dogs who have bloated who are fed raw, kibble, canned, raised bowls, non-raised bowls...the only common denominator has been stress.
> 
> I have had 2 dogs bloat now and lucky neither had torsion. In both cases I acted quickly and gave them either activated charcoal or Gas X or both.
> 
> The best thing you can do is to be aware of the potential, know the signs and have a plan of action that includes giving them something that absorbs gas and getting to the vet ASAP.


 I totally agree with that. Because of the inconsistency on the studies, we may never know if what they suggest is the right thing to do. Raised bowls, not to raise bowls, food with soy based ingredients and yet even feeding raw they still bloat. Horses are very known to bloat as well so it's not a dog thing only. WE bloat after a heavy meal or sometimes we don't know why we feel bloated (trying to track what we eat that made us bloat). it is definitely something to do with food as it is a cross-species problem, not just large breed dogs (toy dogs bloat as well just not as often). Perhaps the reason that these toy dogs not often bloat is due to the amount of food consumption. We as humans vary in our consumption of food, time of day, whether or not we are emotional eaters and don't eat when stressed, and also depending on what/when we feel like eating. Dogs, horses, cows do not control or have the sense of control nor do they (often) have the choice to eat whenever they want. So when they eat, they are hungry and will try to eat fast (thus swallowing air). But free feeding can't back stab as it can lead to an over weight animal. It's that saying...**** if you do, **** if you don't....I wish there was a clear cut as to why they bloat. To change the GSD genetics to prevent bloat could lead to an unwelcome breed with temperament or disposition problems. The best course of action is to have the gas x ready, vet # on speed dial, know the symptoms and try, the best you can, to prevent by avoiding the gassy ingredients in dog food (beets, soy, etc).


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## hunterisgreat

LisaT said:


> I agree on both accounts.
> 
> I think it's more than just about the anatomical characteristics too.
> 
> Also, gastroplexy is not without its own side effects in some dogs. The stomach is meant to be free moving and not tacked, and there is at least a slight effect on digestive quality, an, in some dogs, perhaps more than a slight effect.
> 
> Also, you have to be careful how some of these studies read. Because 52% of those bloated ate from raised bowls, that does not mean that it was caused by raised bowls.


That particular study said the cause was concluded to be raised bowls, not %52 of the dogs ate from raised bowls


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## hunterisgreat

BowWowMeow said:


> I assume you are talking about the Purdue study? There have been a lot of problems identified with that study.
> 
> I know dogs who have bloated in the middle of the night (hours after eating, hours after exercise), dogs who have bloated in the morning (before breakfast or eating), dogs who have bloated who are fed raw, kibble, canned, raised bowls, non-raised bowls...the only common denominator has been stress.
> 
> I have had 2 dogs bloat now and lucky neither had torsion. In both cases I acted quickly and gave them either activated charcoal or Gas X or both.
> 
> The best thing you can do is to be aware of the potential, know the signs and have a plan of action that includes giving them something that absorbs gas and getting to the vet ASAP.


I've read a whole bunch of diff studies. Every medical study I can get my hands on. Have read the purdue ones also

Define the stress common denominator you witnessed. Stress can mean a lot of different things to different people.

My dog had torsion, but has never bloated before or after (non-torsion)


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## hunterisgreat

fkeeley said:


> I totally agree with that. Because of the inconsistency on the studies, we may never know if what they suggest is the right thing to do. Raised bowls, not to raise bowls, food with soy based ingredients and yet even feeding raw they still bloat. Horses are very known to bloat as well so it's not a dog thing only. WE bloat after a heavy meal or sometimes we don't know why we feel bloated (trying to track what we eat that made us bloat). it is definitely something to do with food as it is a cross-species problem, not just large breed dogs (toy dogs bloat as well just not as often). Perhaps the reason that these toy dogs not often bloat is due to the amount of food consumption. We as humans vary in our consumption of food, time of day, whether or not we are emotional eaters and don't eat when stressed, and also depending on what/when we feel like eating. Dogs, horses, cows do not control or have the sense of control nor do they (often) have the choice to eat whenever they want. So when they eat, they are hungry and will try to eat fast (thus swallowing air). But free feeding can't back stab as it can lead to an over weight animal. It's that saying...**** if you do, **** if you don't....I wish there was a clear cut as to why they bloat. To change the GSD genetics to prevent bloat could lead to an unwelcome breed with temperament or disposition problems. The best course of action is to have the gas x ready, vet # on speed dial, know the symptoms and try, the best you can, to prevent by avoiding the gassy ingredients in dog food (beets, soy, etc).


Agreed. Trying to "breed" out bloat is just going to result in dogs that don't meet the standard... that still bloat. 

As far as bowls and what should be done. Until we know the cause and aren't speculating anymore I am a strong advocate of mirroring nature. I will always feed from the ground


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## Cassidy's Mom

hunterisgreat said:


> That particular study said the cause was concluded to be raised bowls, not %52 of the dogs ate from raised bowls


But how did they come to that conclusion, and how do we know that it was the correct conclusion? How would it be possible TO know if that was the cause or merely a coincidence? 

The study was on large and giant breed dogs, who are far more likely to be fed from raised bowls than smaller dogs are. If the study were on small breed dogs and 52% of the dogs who bloated were fed on the floor, would that mean that _not_ using raised bowls contributed to bloat? Of course not.


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## BowWowMeow

Hunter,

If you want to discuss a study then please post the citation. I assume you are talking about this study (this is a brief summary of the findings): Canine Bloat - Tufts Breeding & Genetics 2003

According to this summary they did find a very strong genetic link. I would be interested in looking at the entire study.


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## LisaT

hunterisgreat said:


> That particular study said the cause was concluded to be raised bowls, not %52 of the dogs ate from raised bowls


I do not believe that was the actual conclusion - it was listed as a risk factor, NOT a cause, and it was because the actions coincided, but still, it's risky to make conclusions from that. And the study was more of a survey of one breed of dogs. 

There was not one GSD in the Purdue studies, if I recall. With the GSD's digestive issues and unique stomach flora and issues, I believe that it's much more complicated than what you are presenting here.

My boy takes in too much air if the food is on the ground, or the bowl elevated too high. However, I do feed from a raised bowl, and would even if he were not tacked.


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## LisaT

hunterisgreat said:


> I've read a whole bunch of diff studies. Every medical study I can get my hands on. Have read the purdue ones also
> 
> Define the stress common denominator you witnessed. Stress can mean a lot of different things to different people.


Certainly you've read the stress correlation if you have done all that reading. It's discussed in the Purdue studies, and also in the link that Ruth linked (thanks Ruth!):

_The study also found that fearful, nervous, or aggressive dogs had a much higher incidence of bloat than did dogs perceived by their owners as having happy temperaments. Stress can also be a precipitating factor, and many dogs bloat after recent kenneling, or a recent long car ride. A slightly higher percentage of males than females developed bloat._


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## LisaT

I was correct, GSDs were not included in the main Purdue studies:

_Briefly, starting in 1994, the Purdue research staff attended dog shows around the country for seven large breeds, namely the: Akita, Bloodhound, Collie, Irish Setter, Rottweiler, Standard Poodle, and Weimaraner, and for four giant breeds, namely the Great Dane, Irish Wolfhound, Newfoundland, and Saint Bernard. _

More links can be found here:
Bloat Information - GermanShepherdHome.net


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## Doc

I would venture to say that bloat is more common in certain lines. Some people, who have had German shepherds over many decades have never had a dog to bloat. It didn't matter if the dogs were fed on the ground, in a bowl, or out of a raised stand. I think genetics over ride environmental factors every time. Somewhere in a dogs pedigree, a dog introduced bloat into the genetic make up, IMO.


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## AgileGSD

hunterisgreat said:


> Simple fact is large deep chest = bloat risk. 1/3 of Danes get bloat. GSDs get bloat Bc of size. Those are the shakes. Can't do a whole lot about it without making a gsd not gsd like anymore. Just like bulldogs have over heat and breathing issues. Sure you can breed it out, but you don't have a bulldog anymore


 Well you wouldn't have the modern "improved" Bulldog - you'd probably have a dog closer to what the breed was originally for. 

With GSDs, just glancing at historic pictures of them, one can see that the dogs didn't tend have near the depth of chest that most have now. Perhaps that is a more modern "improvement" as well? Does anyone know when bloat became as common in the breed as it is now? The early GSDs were built more similarly to the Belgian breeds and bloat is not generally an issue with them. 

A few 1920s GSDs - you can easily see that these dogs don't have the chest depth that GSDs do now. Several are also shorter bodied and appear to lack the heavy bone some GSDs have today. The differences in angulation are very obvious too but I doubt that is a contributing factor to bloat.














































Are these not GSDs because they lack depth of chest? Or modern GSDs not GSDs because they have so much more depth of chest?

Looking at other bloat prone breeds, you can see a similar trend - the earlier dogs lacked the depth of chest that the modern versions have.

Great Dane from 1910









1900









Unsure of year on this one









1928 Greyhound









Not sure on date here but these dogs all lack the degree of chest depth that you see in the breed today.










Historical Irish Setter photos she the same thing...


















And in Dobermans..
1907









1940s









Boxers too
1800s









1915


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## cliffson1

Though I think bloat can have an environmental cause, I also think there are strong genetic predispositions like Doc said. There are lines of GSd that seem to have a more frequent occurrence than others. There are Czech dogs I won't linebreed on because of elevated Bloat factor. In forty years I have not had a dog with this problem, could be luck of the draw, but I try to use common sense to all aspects of the breed.


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## hunterisgreat

Genetics are a moving target so they all "wander" a bit. Have we improved or deviated with Danes, bulldogs, boxers, and GSDs? Beyond the scope of this thread and pretty much entirely subjective.


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## hunterisgreat

cliffson1 said:


> Though I think bloat can have an environmental cause, I also think there are strong genetic predispositions like Doc said. There are lines of GSd that seem to have a more frequent occurrence than others. There are Czech dogs I won't linebreed on because of elevated Bloat factor. In forty years I have not had a dog with this problem, could be luck of the draw, but I try to use common sense to all aspects of the breed.


Well all we really have is the historical facts, and there are strong environmental causes that span breeds and even species, and current veterinary advice is to be cautious with any dog that has a first order relative that bloated. Doesn't seem they feel second order or further has any significant link. 2 years ago a whole bunch of horses were lost to bloat here bc of a hay distributers bad hay. A friend lost 2 in a matter of weeks. Same friend lost his German shorthair to bloat a few months prior. I'd chock up your good fortune to luck. There is no dog that is not capable of bloating.


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## hunterisgreat

BowWowMeow said:


> Hunter,
> 
> If you want to discuss a study then please post the citation. I assume you are talking about this study (this is a brief summary of the findings): Canine Bloat - Tufts Breeding & Genetics 2003
> 
> According to this summary they did find a very strong genetic link. I would be interested in looking at the entire study.


I'll Do my best but I'm often on my phone and it's a bit difficult


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## hunterisgreat

LisaT said:


> Certainly you've read the stress correlation if you have done all that reading. It's discussed in the Purdue studies, and also in the link that Ruth linked (thanks Ruth!):
> 
> _The study also found that fearful, nervous, or aggressive dogs had a much higher incidence of bloat than did dogs perceived by their owners as having happy temperaments. Stress can also be a precipitating factor, and many dogs bloat after recent kenneling, or a recent long car ride. A slightly higher percentage of males than females developed bloat._


Yup, but she was talking about her personal account not a study's obsevations. I wanted to know what stress meant to her. Stress can also mean, a dog in high drive. In this context it does not mean that. Without a consistent and mutually understood language discussions are moot


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## hunterisgreat

Also advise you all to read the study bowwow linked. It does show "verifiable" inks to raised feeding, and says there are no genes related to bloat.. The fact that dogs in the us have a much higher incidence of bloat than dogs in austrailia is very interesting and strongly points at environmental causes.

After reading so many studies, I'm pretty sure my cause was leanness and raised bowl. There are no incidences of gloating in the pedigree that I can find, nor does my dog have a narrow chest by any measure, no stress, extremely calm and confident dog.


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## AgileGSD

hunterisgreat said:


> Genetics are a moving target so they all "wander" a bit. Have we improved or deviated with Danes, bulldogs, boxers, and GSDs? Beyond the scope of this thread and pretty much entirely subjective.


 I suspect that at some point with these breeds, the deeper chest started to be selected for. Perhaps breeding for "good looking dogs" for the conformation aspect goes back further than one might think, before the splits. If I were breeding GSDs, I would probably try to select for less depth of chest even if it isn't popular in the show ring (of any country). I know some Amline breeders who have had a lot of bloat in their dogs and the dogs are all extremely deep chested.

I also think feeding kibble plays a role in it, as I have known two dogs who bloated as the result of getting into a bag of kibble and eating a large amount. They were both deep chested, bloat prone dogs though, a GSD and a Dobe. It would seem that the body shape causes the tendency and environmental factors determine if the dog will or will not bloat. 

I still am very curious as to when bloat started to become an issue in some breeds. Maybe no one really knows.


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## Samba

Selecting for different aspects, including conformation, goes way back. Von Stephanitz was doing it over the early years as he did not feel he had a finished product. 

I too have wondered how long and how prevalent bloat and torsion has been in the breed. It is all around now but I am convinced of its genetic element. As mentioned, some dogs do not appear to have much incidence.

I was given a GSD years ago. He came from lines known to bloat. He was line bred on one of the main dogs in that line. I knew he would torsion. One day he did and I was fortunate to be there with him. He torsioned but was saved. Some years later, his spleen torsioned. The kennel that he came from was full of dogs from those lines. I can think of very few dogs there that did NOT bloat and torsion. Most of them females also.
Lots of splenic torsion also. These dogs were not the only dogs of their time to possess a deep chest. They surely had other genetic factors??


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## cliffson1

I prefer outcomes to theory....that's just me. BTW, it seems I'm lucky in a lot of areas of the breed.


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## hunterisgreat

Samba said:


> Selecting for different aspects, including conformation, goes way back. Von Stephanitz was doing it over the early years as he did not feel he had a finished product.
> 
> I too have wondered how long and how prevalent bloat and torsion has been in the breed. It is all around now but I am convinced of its genetic element. As mentioned, some dogs do not appear to have much incidence.
> 
> I was given a GSD years ago. He came from lines known to bloat. He was line bred on one of the main dogs in that line. I knew he would torsion. One day he did and I was fortunate to be there with him. He torsioned but was saved. Some years later, his spleen torsioned. The kennel that he came from was full of dogs from those lines. I can think of very few dogs there that did NOT bloat and torsion. Most of them females also.
> Lots of splenic torsion also. These dogs were not the only dogs of their time to possess a deep chest. They surely had other genetic factors??


As bloat affects many many species, im sure there wasn't a "start" in dogs. It's always been there, like cancer


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## hunterisgreat

cliffson1 said:


> I prefer outcomes to theory....that's just me. BTW, it seems I'm lucky in a lot of areas of the breed.


I can appreciate that but Without theory though, it's very difficult to have reliable predictable outcomes. If we don't understand the problem we really can't Begin to fix it


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## cliffson1

I agree Hunter with the need to predict outcomes, but I lean more toward trusting successful experience than short term answers through tests and measurements. There is definitely a place for both....but I think one of the downfalls of the breed is people with little hands on experience with the breed, make decisions based on diagnostics. Its the same with HD, people make breeding decisions based solely on HD results. There are many health issues in the breed that are linked to stress, I make sure that the dogs I breed have long histories of rock solid temperament, as a result I don't run into many issues(skin conditions, health issues, temperament issues causing dogs to be returned, etc), and I attribute a lot of this to common sense breeding of strong dogs with strong histories behind them. Not saying perfect dogs, but if you are breeding weak nerved dogs that don't handle stress and issues like mange, nuerotic behavoir, digestive issues, and others linked to stress occur...than to my way of thinking the causation could well be in breeding dogs that wouldn't have been bred unless man with its bleeding heart intervened. I could be way off, but I think many breeders create their own problems with a lack of knowledge and thus poor decisions leading to health/temperament issues. Oh Well, not saying anybody is wrong or right, just that sometimes newer ways aren't necessarily better.


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## Jgk2383

Cliffson, Samba which lines in your experience are bloat elevated??


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## Doc

Well stated Cliff. Why breed a bloodline that exhibits inferior health qualities? Willis notes what to be on the look out for from certain dogs i.e missing teeth, soft ears, etc. You rarely see "bloat" listed as an issue in many of the older bloodlines from the 50s and 60s.


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## Samba

I think that bloat and torsion can be triggered by anything that causes an abnormality in gastric contractility and function. Stress is one thing that can do that. Stress causes many hormones to be elevated and the body is greatly affected. A dog of strong nerves is going to be spared a lot of risk for many illnesses. Cliff's point there is quite real.


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## LisaT

Please be careful about jumping to conclusions.....



hunterisgreat said:


> Also advise you all to read the study bowwow linked. .... and says there are no genes related to bloat..


*No, what it says is: * _There is no single, major gene that controls bloat. This is because dogs do not inherit bloat; they only inherit a predisposition for the condition. As with other polygenic disorders, breadth of pedigree normalcy increases the selective pressure against the condition._*That means that there is no single gene that controls bloat. POLYGENIC means two or more genes control this, making it a more complicated disease process.*




> The fact that dogs in the us have a much higher incidence of bloat than dogs in austrailia is very interesting *and strongly points at environmental causes*.


It can just as well point to different lines predominate on a different continent and thus a genetic correlation. Again, be careful about jumping to conclusions.




> After reading so many studies, I'm pretty sure my cause was leanness and raised bowl.


And the trigger of your dog's bloat may be different for another dog's bloat. My dog's trigger was drinking a lot of water and then practicing a lot of quick recalls. But he was going to bloat anyway, the activity was the trigger, not the cause.


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## hunterisgreat

LisaT said:


> Please be careful about jumping to conclusions.....
> 
> 
> 
> *No, what it says is: * _There is no single, major gene that controls bloat. This is because dogs do not inherit bloat; they only inherit a predisposition for the condition. As with other polygenic disorders, breadth of pedigree normalcy increases the selective pressure against the condition._*That means that there is no single gene that controls bloat. POLYGENIC means two or more genes control this, making it a more complicated disease process.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It can just as well point to different lines predominate on a different continent and thus a genetic correlation. Again, be careful about jumping to conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the trigger of your dog's bloat may be different for another dog's bloat. My dog's trigger was drinking a lot of water and then practicing a lot of quick recalls. But he was going to bloat anyway, the activity was the trigger, not the cause.


I'm not saying that my word is gospel, just my thoughts on it, and so I'm never going to draw an "in stone" conclusion. I'm pretty good about re-evaluating any of my beliefs periodically , just wanted that to be clear.

Well.. to reword, I think every single GSD can bloat. Some more likely than others. I don't think there is any way to breed it out, just like cancer.

It would be very interesting to trace GSD's imported from germany so we know they are of the same blood, and see how those dogs do in their destination countries. 

There are now studies saying water & food mixed with exercise has no bearing... me personally, abide by the rules of no exercise after eating/drinking, but it just goes to show how cloudy this issue is to researchers


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## hunterisgreat

cliffson1 said:


> I agree Hunter with the need to predict outcomes, but I lean more toward trusting successful experience than short term answers through tests and measurements. There is definitely a place for both....but I think one of the downfalls of the breed is people with little hands on experience with the breed, make decisions based on diagnostics. Its the same with HD, people make breeding decisions based solely on HD results. There are many health issues in the breed that are linked to stress, I make sure that the dogs I breed have long histories of rock solid temperament, as a result I don't run into many issues(skin conditions, health issues, temperament issues causing dogs to be returned, etc), and I attribute a lot of this to common sense breeding of strong dogs with strong histories behind them. Not saying perfect dogs, but if you are breeding weak nerved dogs that don't handle stress and issues like mange, nuerotic behavoir, digestive issues, and others linked to stress occur...than to my way of thinking the causation could well be in breeding dogs that wouldn't have been bred unless man with its bleeding heart intervened. I could be way off, but I think many breeders create their own problems with a lack of knowledge and thus poor decisions leading to health/temperament issues. Oh Well, not saying anybody is wrong or right, just that sometimes newer ways aren't necessarily better.


Oh I totally agree... however I also believe most breeders aren't leaning on experience, or theory... more like hunches. Interesting perspective on temperament and its relation to all the other little weird problems. I've always been told GSD's were so sensitive to diet, skin problems, allergies, etc, and then all these people post about how "my dog just bit a kid for no reason"... I've never had any of these issues. Dogs seem to either have a lot of issues or none... always chocked it up to some pet owners being hypochondriacs


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## cliffson1

Thirty years ago you didn't hear about the multitude of illnesses, nuerotic behavoirs, and many other things of today. Forty years ago, you seldom ever saw a German Shepherd with the fear look in their eyes or tail tucked under their body. Most of the dogs that I saw doing this period were strong forward acting dogs....you also had very few reputable breeders in those days but many many backyard breeders by today's standards. Now we have many reputable breeders with diagnostic testing out of the waszoo, we have much more prevalence of mental and physical illnesses associated with the breed, and I just wonder....hmmmm...if maybe we have overdone this thing and taken a step backwards. Of course if you weren't around 40 years ago to see the dogs then to make a comparison in temp. and health, this probably means little to you. But ask the oldtimers what they think about the health and temp issues in comparison, and see what the consensus is. I don't know...maybe I am imagining this...LOL


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## hunterisgreat

cliffson1 said:


> Thirty years ago you didn't hear about the multitude of illnesses, nuerotic behavoirs, and many other things of today. Forty years ago, you seldom ever saw a German Shepherd with the fear look in their eyes or tail tucked under their body. Most of the dogs that I saw doing this period were strong forward acting dogs....you also had very few reputable breeders in those days but many many backyard breeders by today's standards. Now we have many reputable breeders with diagnostic testing out of the waszoo, we have much more prevalence of mental and physical illnesses associated with the breed, and I just wonder....hmmmm...if maybe we have overdone this thing and taken a step backwards. Of course if you weren't around 40 years ago to see the dogs then to make a comparison in temp. and health, this probably means little to you. But ask the oldtimers what they think about the health and temp issues in comparison, and see what the consensus is. I don't know...maybe I am imagining this...LOL


So how does an "exceptional" dog of today compare to the average of 50yrs ago?


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## Doc

There are still good dogs around, you just have to work real hard to find them. How does an exceptional dog of today compare to the average of 50 years ago? - which "exceptional" dog are you speaking of? who labled the dog "exceptional? and what are they exceptional in? Fifty years ago one dog could and often was "exceptional" in every endevour - sport, confirmation, show and obedience. Kallengarten, Cellarland, Lierberg, Colsato, San Rapheal, Rocky Reach, Hessin, Longworth, just to mention a few.


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## cliffson1

Shouldn't the question be how does a normal dog of today compare to normal of the past. I still need somebody to tell me how these people got it so right in the past that we had dogs doing seeing eye work, military work, police work, and herding work with just ordinary breeders breeding these dogs; and today out of 5 or 6 subsections of dogs you only have one or two subsections that can consistently produce these functional dogs with minimal health issues. Why can't the dogs from all these reputable breeders, with all the testing done, consistently be utilized by the many vocations in the world for the breed. I'm trying to figure this out with the supposition that today's way has improved the breed. Don't want exceptions because they aren't normal, I need to see or hear consistent application.


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## LisaT

So how much of it is soley the breeding, versus what some of these vaccines and perhaps diet is doing to all the breeds? Once these vaccines damage a dog (typically at a young age), and then they are used for breeding, some of these issues are passed along since the vaccines can affect the immune system and DNA. 

I believe that dogs are being cared for to their detriment, in some areas. The standard of care has increased, which means more and more chemical interventions and preventatives. A mostly unrelated case, I'm pretty sure that my boy's sire had cancer at the time. What did that do to his immune system?

So perhaps it takes an exceptional dog today to withstand the pressures of modern science, in order to seem like a sturdy normal dog?


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## Samba

I think they got it right in the past because the dogs were not as far from their origins as they are now. The going off into varying niche breedings and into extremes for competitions of all types had not had years to develop. In an attempt to get consistent production for a specific venue, compromises are often made in selecton. Gene pools get isolated in an already restricted breed.

I am not sure many of the breeders are interested in producing the dogs as they once were. Decisions in regard to breeding for health in a balanced way gets compromised in the interest of short term goals. Also, i don't think some breeding even know what is missing in many of the dogs. Someone mentioning it gets surprised looks.

Just some of my guessing....


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## arycrest

Sometimes breeders don't know there are problems until two or three generations down the line. JR (Amherst's Lake Dallas) came to live with me when he was 5 years old. He'd been bred at least 3 times that I know of, maybe more. He was never bred after I got him. When he was 8 years old he almost died from mesenteric torsion (survival rate of 2 to 3%). A year later he survived stomach bloat w/torsion. Both IMHO may be herditary (?). By then his progeny were parents, grandparents, maybe even great grandparents.

I have currently have three of his distant relatives - Slider, Bruiser & Faith. I watch them like a hawk just in case they inherited great/great/great grandpa's "torsion" genes. JR was both Ringer & Honey's sire, neither of them had any torsion.

FWIW JR lived to celebrate his 13th birthday.


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## Samba

Sure there are times when the problems do not show up until later. Unfortunately, I have seen times where the breeeding continues even after it becomes evident that there are significant risks.

For sure, temperament and tolerance for stress are known before breeding.


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## lhczth

Samba said:


> For sure, temperament and tolerance for stress are known before breeding.


Are they?


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## Smithie86

I agree with Lisa. Depends on the testing.

I have seen and heard of trials done so the owners' dogs get high in trials, etc. Home field, home helper, very friendly judge.

How is that a real test of the dog?


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## Samba

Ha, well they are present to be known any way. Whether they are assessed and understood is another.

But, yes they are there and issues that would be apparent to even the novice are evident and still the dogs are bred sometimes.


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