# Find a breeder not just based on bloodlines but character of the breeder as well.



## Silverhorse (Sep 3, 2013)

Hi everyone, I would like to post about an experience I had with a breeder and help people in their search for a truly good breeder, not just ones that put out good dogs but one that is a good person. Around August of last year, I was in search for a puppy, I finally decided on a breeder about a 6 hour drive from my home. At first she was really nice, but I noticed she put down a lot of other breeders, that should have been sign number 1 for me. We made the trip after the puppies were two weeks old, I wanted a male and out of a litter of 4 there was only 1 male born so it was a given that he would be mine. I fell in love with "my pup", prior to us making the trip there was constant communication. After I gave her the $500 deposit, there was almost no communication. I asked for pictures to see how he was coming along but was met with excuses. The breeder finally called me a week before we were to pick up our puppy and told me she could meet me half way, we were thrilled and couldn't wait. The very next morning she called and said the puppies had parvo and I would have to wait a week before delivery. A week? she told me to get my other dogs vaccinated and all would be well if the pup lived. Wow, I was paying $2000 for a puppy with parvo that might not live? I contacted my vet who advised me not to get the puppy because although some dogs with parvo come out of it fine, there are equally the same amount that have future problems. We decided against getting him and asked her for the deposit back, she blocked me from facebook and email. We got a different puppy from a different breeder and couldn't be happier and can't help but think everything happened for a reason. This breeder was supposed to be a good breeder, she ships her dogs off to Germany for their sv titles. I don't doubt that she puts out good dogs but she is not a good person. When I asked her for the deposit back she said fine, as soon as he sells I'll return your deposit. 3 months later we finally got it back. At least she did that. We were nice, calm and understanding of her situation but was floored later to find out that after the pups illness the price for him didn't decrease but increased to $2200. Did she ever tell the new owners that he had parvo? I don't know, we can only hope so. My point in this message is don't just search for bloodlines of the puppies but also the character of the breeder. Hope this helps somebody out there looking for a good breeder with good character as well.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I think you made the right decision. You thought with your brain instead of your wallet which was probably the smart thing to do here. Live and learn. Good luck with your new pup.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I could not agree more with your statement. Buying from a good breeder that you trust and that will be there for support later is important.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm not positive of the reason for this post, but I will say that there's no proof the dogs were ever sick, they may have done the "bait and switch" on you and raised the price. Your vet was correct in his or her suggestion and you got you money back.

My problem with breeder's is not all breeder's match the animal to the owner's capabilities. The screening process goes out the window in lieu of cash. When I wanted a pup, I was delivered an animal the breeder felt and had great confidence that I would be able to handle the dog and it would not be given up or re-homed as it seems to be called now. Recently, a breeder guy said to me, "send me $500 to hold the dog ASAP, no pictures, no purchase agreement, pay $1500 upon delivery and see ya..

Sorry, that is not a good business practice and I let him know, it was not the way I would do business. :hug:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sehrgutcsg said:


> I'm not positive of the reason for this post, but I will say that there's no proof the dogs were ever sick, they may have done the "bait and switch" on you and raised the price. Your vet was correct in his or her suggestion and you got you money back.


A breeder willing to do a bait and switch type lie over $200 measly dollars probably doesn't have their priorities straight to begin with.


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## Silverhorse (Sep 3, 2013)

sehrgutcsg said:


> I'm not positive of the reason for this post, but I will say that there's no proof the dogs were ever sick, they may have done the "bait and switch" on you and raised the price. Your vet was correct in his or her suggestion and you got you money back.
> 
> My problem with breeder's is not all breeder's match the animal to the owner's capabilities. The screening process goes out the window in lieu of cash. When I wanted a pup, I was delivered an animal the breeder felt and had great confidence that I would be able to handle the dog and it would not be given up or re-homed as it seems to be called now. Recently, a breeder guy said to me, "send me $500 to hold the dog ASAP, no pictures, no purchase agreement, pay $1500 upon delivery and see ya..
> 
> Sorry, that is not a good business practice and I let him know, it was not the way I would do business. :hug:



Did I mention I'm not a first time GSD owner? lol, I've had 5 in my life and all have been wonderful. Why in the world would she tell me they had parvo the day before delivery? I'm sorry but you're statement doesn't make sense and as for proof, would her vet lie as well to make sure I wouldn't get the dog? And even if she did lie about the parvo, why would she keep the dog for 3 months making him 5 mo old after finally selling him? lol


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## Silverhorse (Sep 3, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> A breeder willing to do a bait and switch type lie over $200 measly dollars probably doesn't have their priorities straight to begin with.



I agree Lucy Dog, It wasn't a bait and switch, this breeder actually had the gall to tell me "At least I told you he had parvo, a lot of breeders wouldn't do that". Besides how I know that the price went up to $2200 was because I had a friend contact her to see if the male was still available 2 months later and she said he was and stated that price to her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

???? Is there ever an opportunity to do right?
You got your full money back . Correct? 
The person did hold on to the dog for an extra 3 months . That is the breeders, time, socialization, feeding , cleaning, shots , start training. Let's not forget treatment for the parvo. The dog is no longer the same dog . 

Parvo -- sneaky stuff. I remember one litter , many years ago , that had been vaccinated against parvo , as all my dogs are . This was in the early days though when the vaccine wasn't totally perfected -- 8 to 9 days later , a pup that had already left and been in his new home came down with worrisome symptoms. Told them to go to a vet asap . Later in the day the contacted me and told me parvo was confirmed. I held on to the balance of the litter still with me and predictably they showed the same symptoms a day or two later. I did the same thing. People that were to pick up their dogs that weekend were contacted -- (I don't take deposits) . They were free to go anywhere else , or to receive their pup when we had gone through the process , healing.
Dogs that are taken care of don't have future problems . Breeders that went through parvo when it first emerged probably had more than one close and personal challenge with it . 
Many breeders send dogs to Germany to title and koer in Schutzhund and in conformation . 

I don't really see any wrong doing .


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Many breeders that keep a pup for a while (even if it's an unsold one from a litter) will end up selling it for more because they put a LOT more into the pup. A lot take them to classes, work on their obedience and basically give them a good solid foundation for later training. That's a heck of a deal really for only $200 more from those types of breeders as I would spend that much myself or more on the classes it has already taken.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't get it . The person got the full refund of the deposit . Not every kennel does this , and is even stated on the contract -- no deposit refunds. I assume the person had the option to collect the pup after the treatment for parvo . Their vet put them off siting future problems. 
She even warned you to make sure your dogs parvo vaccinations were active , preventing a greater problem .
You were not "Wow, I was paying $2000 for a puppy with parvo that might not live?" You weren't paying anything on the balance until you were delivered one healthy dog . 
What more can the person do ? Once the deposit refund was given within the agreed time frame , the OP , sorry Silverhorse, has no obligations nor expectations -- you are finished , both parties being free agents to do as they need to do. 
Maybe the dog matured into an even better specimen than expected?
So what . If the breeder wants to capitalize on this they can. 
Maybe you benefited by finding a nicer pup at a lessor price .
"floored later to find out that after the pups illness the price for him didn't decrease but increased to $2200. " that though is none of your business . You walked away , you satisfied yourself with another dog , you got your money back . Get on with it , love and train the dog you have .


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## Silverhorse (Sep 3, 2013)

I just wanted to come here in hopes of helping others in search of a good breeder not to breeder bash thats why I specifically posted both sides of the events exactly as it happened. 
Notice I did not post the name or location of the breeder? Notice i also said she finally returned my deposit? Her true colors came out after her "sale" fell through by blocking me from all sorts of communication, I was not hounding her, bashing her or speaking negatively to her or about her to anyone. I should have seen a red flag when she was bashing other breeders my bad. If some people here dont see any problems in paying more for a puppy with potential problems then thats fine. It was my vet who said run, I had an open mind intil he told me that. 
Ive never been to a group that is so hostile towards anyone other then a breeder. Sad really 
Whatever. Take it for what it is, if your looking for a pup make sure the breeder is of good character, if you're a breeder I hope you dont act as she did.


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## Silverhorse (Sep 3, 2013)

Oh and no need to continue to bash me because I'm leaving the group so I wont see your client bashing. Funny how a group is so against breeder bashing but its ok to bash everyone who has had a problem with a breeder. Mind boggling really lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what problem ?? that is the point -- you were satisfied in every way , yet needed to grind the axe .

just remember this , you do have a young dog, congratulations ! hope it works out well, long and healthy life, all the things you dreamt of --- BUT it is a living dynamic being . What happens if that dog ends up being dysplastic -- how are you going to conduct yourself then . Take it out on your pups breeder , or still and additionally take it out on the breeder with the dog you could have had.
Nothing is guaranteed . You do your best . There are things you have no control over , just like the parvo was unwelcome , dealt with .


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Silverhorse said:


> I contacted my vet who advised me not to get the puppy because although some dogs with parvo come out of it fine, there are equally the same amount that have future problems.


I misunderstood you and I am VERY sorry. You called your vet. Her vet also said; the dog was sick. Two vets..?? There would be no reason the litter owners vet would steer you away from a healthy animal. Again, you can't change the past.. I thought I was reading it right and I was.. Not here to create wave's, learning and sharing is the reason, so no hard feelings, right>? :apple:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm glad you got your refund and I'm glad you now have a puppy you are happy with. 

I understand what your trying to say, something I tend to always say, when you find a good breeder you'll find the right puppy. Some things happen for a reason.

I also think your lucky you got your refund, there have many threads where refunds are not given, and some even end up with no puppy/no refund..


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Good post. I agree in finding the right breeder for the individual, I'm glad you were able to in the end. Not sure if there was any wrong doing on the breeder's side in this case though. She was truthful in the condition of the dog BEFORE it was sent and your deposit was returned. Parvo caught early enough is treatable. You mentioned farther down that the dog was with the breeder for several months longer, probably to ensure it was 100% healthy. In that time, I'm sure the breeder worked with the dog socializing, training, etc. The $200 price increase seems minimal to me : )


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Silverhorse, I think that what normally happens on this site is that people bring up a problem with their breeder/puppy transaction -- did not go smoothly or perfectly, and then immediately people attack the breeder. 

Happens all the time here. 

Carmen gave a scenario that is very likely what happened. The dog got parvo, and the breeder very rightly called and told you not to pick up the puppy now. When you decided not to get that puppy, the breeder did agree to give you your deposit back -- most of these threads are usually people complaining that they did not get their deposit back.

So Carmen does not see the problem you are having with the breeder. You have basically said she has a character flaw -- the breeder. She doesn't necessarily have a character flaw. She did the right thing, and did refund your money.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK the only problem I see here is that the breeder shut the op out for a while. $500 is a chunk of change to just have hanging out there and I can appreciate the frustration of a breeder not responding. I get anxious when business people don't respond - I'd be concerned too if they had 500 and I wasn't getting any response.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Puppy gets parvo and a week later, assuming he survives, is good to go home with his new family? I've never had a parvo puppy before, but is that normal?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Carmen, I don't think the op was 'satisfied in every way'. Blocking communication is a truly poor way to deal with a tough situation & must have been both aggravating & frustrating for the op. 

That the pup had parvo was not the potential buyers fault or responsibility. The deposit should have been refunded immediately. IF the breeder was unable to do that the op deserved an explanation.

Despite the costs of treatment, surviving parvo doesn't increase the value of the pup, although additional training might. Any serious illness can have sequelae although long term effects might not present for months or even years. Potential buyers should be informed the pup had been sick with parvo. Personally, I wouldn't purchase a pup that had just survived parvo. 

Breeders are certainly free to charge whatever they can get for their pups but I suspect many buyers wouldn't care to pay full price for a pup that had been sick with parvo. Ethical sellers will be forthcoming with that information. I hope this seller was. 

She might be an excellent breeder, & she might be a very good person, but in this particular case she was lacking. JMO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like the breeder did tell the buyer that she would get her deposit back when she sold the puppy, and within 3 months that was satisfied. We have seen how expensive it is to treat one puppy. There is no litter-discount for treating parvo. So, we are thinking 4-6 thou? It sounds like that could make anyone pretty strapped. 

But she did pay the OP back, and not the following year. Most breeders would have allowed her to go to another litter, some would return the deposit because they could not deliver, but it does sound like the OP did have communication. We do not know whether the buyer said, "Oh fine, when the breeder said they would return the deposit when they sell the puppy." 

But now months later when the money is back and they have another dog -- now the op is upset. 

The transaction did not go as planned because the pups got sick. Let's say the breeder has poor character. I think that is a worse thing to say about someone than a lot of other things, especially when there is an explanation.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

The breeder didn't handle the situation well, before and after the parvo. Cutting off communication after the deposit was received and cutting off contact after the buyer refused the parvo puppy. That would leave a pretty sour taste in my mouth, but that's just bad bedside manner. 

She does deserve some credit for returning that deposit money. Depending on what was written in the contract, I don't think a lot of breeders would have returned it. Credit is due there.

If this were me, after the bad communication after sending the deposit money, I probably would have refused the parvo puppy too. If I had a good relationship with the breeder and trusted them completely, it might be a little different.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Doesn't parvo stay active in the house/ground for a long time? I'd be very concerned for additional litters.

No need to bash the OP for having a bad experience and relating it. Not everyone is as awesome as Venus' breeder HA


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

I don't see how this breeder was being a "bad person". She called, told you, and was going to take care of a problem, AND you got your deposit back!

Metro 10/2005-5/2013
Sabo 3/2013-now
Kia 1/2014- now


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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

And the breeders version of events could be totally different as far a cutting off communication.

I don't think the breeder did anything wrong.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Yes, she "cut off" communication. Could it be possible that, holy cow, she was taking care of a litter and then taking care of a SICK litter? Based on this post attempting to bash someone, I'm sure you didn't keep your cool as you've stated. Not faulting you, but every story has three sides- his, hers and the total unbiased truth

Metro 10/2005-5/2013
Sabo 3/2013-now
Kia 1/2014- now


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

SunCzarina said:


> Doesn't parvo stay active in the house/ground for a long time? I'd be very concerned for additional litters.


Good point. I'd be pretty concerned how this litter got parvo and what the breeder's doing to prevent it from spreading to other litters.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

erfunhouse said:


> I don't see how this breeder was being a "bad person". She called, told you, and was going to take care of a problem, AND you got your deposit back!
> 
> Metro 10/2005-5/2013
> Sabo 3/2013-now
> Kia 1/2014- now


This.

And, a lot of breeders would have heard, Parvo, and euthanized the litter, rather than working through it, and getting those puppies through it. The vet bill is a whole lot smaller that way, and, as some on here said, they wouldn't want a parvo-survivor. Cheaper to tell your people who have deposits that the litter was lost, and voila, your deposit is transferred to my October litter. It's non-refundable. Oh well.

Go home, bleach and saturate everything, and hopefully in six months...

I mean really folks, why ever give the money back? People are going to smear you if you stand on your head and spit nickels for them. 

Some things are more important than updating people every five minutes. Sometimes you are sitting there in the hospital trying to pull the puppy through. Sometimes you are scrubbing and cleaning and feeding puppies every two hours. Sometimes you are totally devastated when you lost one or two or lost the bitch, and you get behind with your happy, happy, joy, joy pictures and updates.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the breeder and OP seemed to have ample communication . 
the OP was given the opportunity to visit the litter at 2 weeks of age.
personally I wouldn't have that -- there is nothing to see at that point and there is a risk of "something" being brought to the kennel when the pups are still at a high risk period . 

"We made the trip after the puppies were two weeks old, I wanted a male and out of a litter of 4 there was only 1 male born so it was a given that he would be mine."

" I fell in love with "my pup", prior to us making the trip there was constant communication. "

xxxxxxx technically it is your pup when you take him home .



"After I gave her the $500 deposit, there was almost no communication. I asked for pictures to see how he was coming along but was met with excuses. "

xxxxxxxxx there is a point between 2 weeks and 5 weeks where there really isn't much new to say . Breeder needs to get on with the day to day taking care of pups and other dogs, training , prioritising other customer cares and concerns maybe with a litter that is a bit older . Some people want to know how many ounces the dog gained over the days , lots of pictures and diary entries. 


"The breeder finally called me a week before we were to pick up our puppy and told me she could meet me half way, we were thrilled and couldn't wait."

So things weren't so bad after all ! You were thrilled up until that point.


and then the pup got parvo . Parvo virus is ever evolving . The first time every one was baffled - late 70's --- then a new evolved form in the mid 90's --- . I was caught in that one . Pups getting parvo in varying degrees -- within the 10 day incubation period after being vaccinated ! Some pups had gone home -- they were actually the first ones to show a problem , probably because they had a mild depression of the immune system due to the big change to new home.
I gave them the option to return the pup - get a refund --- OR -- they could treat the dog at their vets' and I would cover all expenses. 
That is what they chose. Some were repeat customers . The dogs I had were treated with IV fluids and recovered - lived long and healthy lives , even the ones that were PSD - with knowledge , informed buyer . NO problems . However when you have one litter a year the expenses can follow you for the next two or three years before you stabilize again.

we don't know the full story here . The breeder may have blocked you from face book and email , "allegedly" sensing potential libel or slander . Not saying this is so . I've seen enough blogs with open comments and am surprised by some of the comments ranging from good/reasonable (no matter what opinion) , to inane and insane .
no face book for me.

So why is this even a thread . Is the breeder being discussed on PM's without any self defence?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the breeder gave you your money back. what more do you want?


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Dogs cost a lot of money when you buy 65 --- 40 pound bags of dog food at a time by the truck load and 10 --- 40 yards of pea gravel by the truck load. (4 full truck loads) Worming medicines, shots ect... Thousands per month. ($7500 easy not including the mortgage.. 60 - 100 dog runs double dogged) Now, the breeder was not $ liquid $ in funding when the litter got sick. I as a businessman would expect my deposit check returned to me in the mail in 72 hours upon learning I was not picking up my animal that weekend. For her to tell the client she spent the deposit, needed 90 days for re-payment makes her a back yard breeder, a 'deposit is to hold the dog and the funds' until the completion of the sale. I worked in venture capital and investment banking for 20 years and if I told a client that, I would have no hands to type this post. *This is what bother's me..* The OP criticized the breeder for badmouthing other breeder's and then came on here and did the exact same thing. Bird's of a feather --- flock together.. Sorry, ladies and gents. Most member's here are owner breeders, some looking for client's and don't need that advice. The entire thread is moot..

Manage the business like a business, have $20,000 in cash at all times! :apple:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

except that often deposits are not refundable , and state clearly that this is the case in the contract.

no matter , the breeder , according to accounts from the OP said the refund came when the dog was re-sold . That apparently was a mutual agreement. Personally I would have gone to my line of credit and taken care of the person first , paid the debt off "later".

What incenses the OP is that the breeder sold the dog for $200 more !!! and that is none of their business - they have no rights or obligations. How did they find out? Why bother checking back when you have a new pup from elsewhere which makes you perfectly happy.
THEY walked away from the pup. 
If the pup turned out to be another Sieger because he was so amazing , would they have a grievance to share in his potential or gains made by the breeder ?

when you are done , you are over and out , done . If you are not , then there is malice .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> except that often deposits are not refundable , and state clearly that this is the case in the contract.
> 
> no matter , the breeder , according to accounts from the OP said the refund came when the dog was re-sold . That apparently was a mutual agreement. Personally I would have gone to my line of credit and taken care of the person first , paid the debt off "later".
> 
> ...


Carmen, if the puppy was dead, than yes, I would barrow if necessary to get that deposit back to the potential purchaser. I couldn't deliver the puppy didn't make it. This puppy was not dead. I think the breeder was more than fair to offer to return the deposit when she sold the puppy. 

A deposit on the puppy is an agreement, I agree for a price not to sell this puppy out from under you. You agree not to go elsewhere and will but the puppy. I will no longer be looking for a buyer for this puppy, therefore, if you renig on your end of the bargain, then I will have lost some weeks, and turned people away that would want this puppy. Now I have to go back and find one of them who hasn't gotten a puppy yet, or someone new, it might take longer. 

In this case, the puppy had a disease and I can see why people might be very wary on bringing it home. I can see refunding the deposit. But it is not exactly the same as the breeder not being able to deliver. It is more like when the buyer comes at 8 weeks, and thinks the puppy that is to be his won't suit him. Of course let the man go his way. He won't be happy with a pup that he thinks isn't right for him. Normally, the deposit would be forfeited, but you might refund it or transfer it to another litter, depending on the circumstances.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I agree with you Selzer . 

Here is another scenario that I thought of as I was driving around --

the breeder has a deposit for a pup , promised to a buyer , which may be the only black and tan, sable, black, male , female, long coat , what ever . There is something which sets this pup apart from the others making "that" pup "the" one and only one the buyer may be interested in. That deposit holds "that" pup. The pup though is only 3 weeks and for all appearances is a strong and social pup , and continues to be , and pleases the buyer on the visits that he has to interact and start to bond with the pup. The buyer "loves" the pup and is attached , looking forward to the day pup can come home.
Buyer and Breeder are on good terms .

Pup needs to be vaccinated and as is routine has all the pups examined by the vet prior to releasing the pups.

Here is where a problem is discovered . "The" pup has been found to have a slight heart murmur . Pup vaccinated . Put back to play while other pups are examined and then after looked at again , maybe a third time just to make sure - and there it is a heart murmur . Slight but present .

Breeder informs buyer . Buyer informed that sometimes there is an innocent heart murmur which goes away as the pup grows, could be a few weeks or a few months . Buyer can take pup , or not , and get a refund.

there would be informed consent .

Buyer decides to walk.

In the meantime the breeder holds on to dog on principle that no dog is released until the breeder is totally happy with the dogs situation , not passing on problems to someone else, taking responsibility.

Now the pup is seeing another vet for a second opinion -- same diagnoses . Same explanation -- most likely one of those juvenile things that resolve .

Each opportunity , vaccinations , worming , going in piggy backing with another dog's appointment (let's say prelims on another dog) this pup comes along and gets a check up.

There is no longer any evidence at all of any heart murmur.

Meanwhile the pup is 6 months , has matured to be quite the handsome and talented young dog , socialized , started in training, drive promotion . Is presented for sale , heck he may even have had the prelim's done . Of course the price is not the price that he was when he was 8 weeks of age.

Original buyer notices "pup" on web site ..............
several scenarios , none particularly good willed ............

The breeder did this out of best intentions only ---


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that is one of the problems when people are promised a particular pup when it is only days old , weeks old -- not even knowing if that pup is a good match never mind anything else .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> that is one of the problems when people are promised a particular pup when it is only days old , weeks old -- not even knowing if that pup is a good match never mind anything else .


I don't like deposits. But it seems expected. If you have one coat, or one off-color pup, yes sometimes people do want _that _puppy. Will it be the best puppy for the buyer? Well, it could be. For one thing, the buyer had some ownership in choosing it, and sometimes if all else is equal, it can make a difference. If the litter is fairly uniform with respect to temperament, it may not make a difference. But if the puppy tends to be higher in drive, or seriously independent, or whatever, hopefully, the breeder will inform the buyer and allow them to move the deposit if it isn't a suitable match.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I mean really folks, why ever give the money back?


Because it’s the right thing to do. Under the circumstances declining to refund the deposit might not even be legal. The deposit is for a healthy, sound pup, usually 8-9 wks old. Parvo survivor doesn’t fit that description. Personally, I quite possibly wouldn’t want a pup where there’s been a parvo outbreak for months, possibly a year or more. Under those very select circumstances the breeder should refund the deposit if the buyers don’t care to take the risks.




> when you are done , you are over and out , done . If you are not , then there is malice .


She hasn’t cited the breeder’s name, kennel name or location. IF that’s malice it’s very ineptly done.




> the breeder and OP seemed to have ample communication .


_”The breeder finally called me a week before we were to pick up our puppy and told me she could meet me half way, we were thrilled and couldn't wait. The very next morning she called and said the puppies had parvo and I would have to wait a week before delivery. A week? she told me to get my other dogs vaccinated and all would be well if the pup lived. Wow, I was paying $2000 for a puppy with parvo that might not live? I contacted my vet who advised me not to get the puppy because although some dogs with parvo come out of it fine, there are equally the same amount that have future problems. *We decided against getting him and asked her for the deposit back, she blocked me from facebook and email.*”_ Communication was adequate until the situation went south. At that point the buyer was blocked from facebook & email. Good communication is most important when problems arise which is when communication with this breeder fell apart.

The buyer was due an immediate refund under the circumstances. IF that wasn’t possible, she deserved the courtesy of an explanation. Perhaps, with sick pups finances were tight. It’s possible other buyers also bowed out. While I don’t think buyers in this situation should have to wait for deposits to be refunded, it’s possible that they would have to b/c the breeder simply didn’t have the funds available for immediate refunds. I’d be very willing to wait & wait nicely but an explanation is in order. JMO. 

Note that in almost all circumstances I think non-refundable deposits should in fact be non-refundable. Even in cases where the buyer has faced tragedies such as death, unemployment, bankruptcy, loss of home etc I’ve always believed that the decision to refund or not rests solely with the seller & wouldn’t fault a seller who declines to refund even under these circumstances. This situation is very different in that the seller cannot reliably fulfill the contract to deliver a sound, healthy pup raised in a healthy environment.

IF it was me I might want to go elsewhere. More likely, I’d wait x-months for a pup from the breeder, but I’m more about choosing a breeder than a puppy & I’m rarely in any hurry for a pup. However, that should be my choice. I personally wouldn’t care to commit to a litter until a couple of healthy litters had been delivered post-parvo.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Galathiel said:


> Many breeders that keep a pup for a while (even if it's an unsold one from a litter) will end up selling it for more because they put a LOT more into the pup. A lot take them to classes, work on their obedience and basically give them a good solid foundation for later training. That's a heck of a deal really for only $200 more from those types of breeders as I would spend that much myself or more on the classes it has already taken.



Agreed...and from a business viewpoint it makes perfect sense....the breeder did incur more costs by holding the dog for the additional time period. The timeliness of the refund of the deposit is a bit odd....not what I would consider a real quality business practice...unless it was written into the original purchase agreement for the pup. 

$uperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I passed on at least two breeders in my past search for my current dog due to breeders trash talking other breeders.....there are many other more subtle and professional ways to get a point across about another breeder....if one chooses.

Hey, let's face it ...many dog breeders are kind of "crazy" to start with....or should I say "eccentric" ?


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> Because it’s the right thing to do. Under the circumstances declining to refund the deposit might not even be legal. The deposit is for a healthy, sound pup, usually 8-9 wks old. Parvo survivor doesn’t fit that description. Personally, I quite possibly wouldn’t want a pup where there’s been a parvo outbreak for months, possibly a year or more. Under those very select circumstances the breeder should refund the deposit if the buyers don’t care to take the risks.
> 
> She hasn’t cited the breeder’s name, kennel name or location. IF that’s malice it’s very ineptly done.
> 
> ...


It was the right thing to do. Yes. Most of us agree that she should have refunded the deposit. Most of us will refund a non-refundable deposit for the good will. 

Parvo is a virus. It is not a genetic fault. Once the puppy has survived the virus, it should be healthy. It is not necessarily any more likely to have future medical issues, especially if the virus was caught early and dealt with aggressively. 

Like a puppy with a heart murmur at 6 weeks, if it is gone at 9 weeks or even 12 weeks, it is no longer an issue at all. It is a 100% perfectly healthy puppy with respect to that. 

I think that the idea that the deposit is for a healthy puppy may be implied, but the fact is, there are no guaranties to that fact. It is very likely that you will turn down the recovered parvo-pup and buy a lively little tyke from another breeder. The parvo-pup may have a relatively healthy and die of old age at 12, while the other little booger might have one problem after another and drop dead of bloat or an aneurism or any number of problems, genetic or not genetic. We are dealing with living things, and with living things, 100% healthy does not exist. 

What a lack of communication in this case would have been is if the breeder waited until the pups were seven weeks along and then called and told the OP that they had a death in the family or something, and could they put off picking up the puppy for an extra week. Puppy survives the parvo, is eating, etc. And then they meet half-way, and no mention of the problem is ever made. That would be despicable, a lie. But the OP would have probably been more than happy to wait an extra week and even send a card and flowers. 

What we have here is a breeder who made a mistake of allowing people in her house to see a litter of vulnerable puppies, and probably did so, all the way through -- not just the OP, and one of those people probably carried parvo in with them. 

Between the time the OP visited the litter and produced her deposit, the breeder was probably taking care of the litter and busy with other calls for the other puppies. 

Then when the puppies got sick, she immediately called the OP and apprised her of the situation. At this point she spent time and energy keeping them alive. And just maybe under that stress, she did not make the best decision about returning the deposit -- she agreed when the pup was sold, and the OP was fine with that... until she wasn't.

Frankly, I might not like the way the pup was selected, and I might not like the idea of puppy buyers in the house at 2 weeks along -- stresses the bitch, and is not good for socializing the pups yet. But, as for the CHARACTER of the breeder, I just don't see anything worthy of ASSASSINATION. 

The breeder agreed to give a non-refundable deposit back and did.

The breeder provided veterinary care for a litter of parvo-puppies and pulled them through, rather than just euthanizing them. 

The breeder communicated the problem with the buyers.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

In the strictest sense there is no such thing as an ethical, legal completely non-refundable deposit under any & all circumstances. Both parties have contractual obligations. The contract almost always specifies that the pup is healthy. In this situation a breeder isn't being 'generous' to refund the deposit. It's the decent thing to do & if it went to court I suspect it would also be determined to be the breeders only legal recourse.



> Parvo is a virus. It is not a genetic fault. Once the puppy has survived the virus, it should be healthy. It is not necessarily any more likely to have future medical issues, especially if the virus was caught early and dealt with aggressively.


Any serious health problem whether genetic or not can have long term sequelae. With some conditions it's more common than others such as scarlet fever, menangitis, syphilis, lyme disease etc. None of these are genetic but all are associated with significant sequelae. Her vet advised against taking the pup for this reason.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when you are done , you are over and out , done . If you are not , then there is malice . She hasn’t cited the breeder’s name, kennel name or location. IF that’s malice it’s very ineptly done

No that is right , the OP has not mentioned the breeder's name . On the forum. If the tables were turned and the breeder was upset with the negotiations and checked to see what the OP was up to , what would you call that . Once the person decided "I do not want this pup" there are no more claims , out , over, done. 

"n the strictest sense there is no such thing as an ethical, legal completely non-refundable deposit under any & all circumstances"
if you are a buyer and place a deposit on a house , days later find something that you like better -- you lose your deposit . 
There are so many examples. Hire a caterer , book a date, and cancel , see what happens.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree with Selzer and Carmen-the breeder refunded the deposit...don't know if the buyer had malice...but why would you have someone call up to find out how much she was selling the puppy for...when they bought another puppy...odd thread And I think it was fine that the breeder charged 200 more-glad the pup survived


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