# Prayers needed for Karlo and Onyx'girl



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Karlo is very ill at Michigan State Univ. Hospital. His kidney values are very high indicating failure and have gotten worse. They don't know what is wrong yet. Please send all your prayers and positive thoughts to Karlo and Jane.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't do prayers per se, but I sure as heck do send positive thoughts and am wishing hard that Karlo recovers. That dog is awesome. And so is Jane.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Oh no! Will be sending positive thoughts their way.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Sending positive energy their way. Hoping for best possible outcome for Karlo. Best regards to Jane.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Sending positive thoughts for Karlo and Jane.


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## M&J (Nov 16, 2002)

Sending prayers.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Good thoughts!


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## Teroo&Fergus (Jul 23, 2014)

I am very sorry. Prayers!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Wishing 100% recovery to Karlo boy. Gnash and Karlo grew up together, although we have never met I feel a strong bond with him. Get better quick man.


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## woogyboogy (Dec 25, 2013)

They are in my thoughts!


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## joneser (Jun 9, 2014)

Prayers on the way! Also if there's anything I can do, I'm a short drive away. Let me know!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Sending prayers and hugs!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Oh so sorry to hear this, praying he is better soon.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Oh no! Thoughts and prayers going out.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I hope he gets better


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Prayers for Karlo, I know he means the world to her .


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Sending thoughts your way Onyx'girl. Praying for a quick recovery for mister Karlo..:hugs:


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Karlo is very ill at Michigan State Univ. Hospital. His kidney values are very high indicating failure and have gotten worse. They don't know what is wrong yet. Please send all your prayers and positive thoughts to Karlo and Jane.


 Oh, prayers and love and much empathy for Jane, I went through acute kidney failure with one of my girls years ago, vet felt it was possibly a combination of the bad protein sources for dog food (it even got into a few premium dog foods) and my dog getting into the grapes in our grape arbor--that's how I learned the danger of grapes. And it all happened so fast...

Jane, Jane... You have Karlo at the best place in Michigan, if anyone can help him, they can.

Susan


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Strong thoughts. These dogs can amaze us sometimes, be strong Karlo.


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

Many prayers and healing thoughts for Karlo and hugs for Jane. Stay strong.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

They are running blood work, checking output for a blockage. Next couple of days are critical. I know Jane appreciates all your thoughts and prayers.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Really sorry to hear that. Hope he pulls through.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Sending prayers for wisdom for the doctors and strength for Jane


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My thoughts are with Jane and Karlo....


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

In my thoughts and prayers.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Thoughts and prayers for Karlo and Jane.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Zooming good thoughts to Jane and Karlo. He looks good in the picture she put up. He's such a trooper. Hoping they can find some answers quickly.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Wishing Jane and Karlo positive thoughts and healing prayers.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> They are running blood work, checking output for a blockage. Next couple of days are critical. I know Jane appreciates all your thoughts and prayers.


Please continue to update us--Jane's certainly not going to be able to!

Oh, it's experiences just like she is going through right now with her beloved Karlo, and we went through last winter with out two boys, that make me wonder how much longer I can take it. I am seriously thinking that the two I have now may be the last... Not sure I have any tears left. (Please excuse this--when you get older, you find that some things get to you more than they used to, or at least they are harder to shake...)

I know in my heart that God loves His WHOLE creation, not just humans, and Jane and Karlo are in my prayers.

Susan


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## CindyMDBecker (Feb 22, 2013)

Oh this breaks my heart. I can totally totally relate to this. (had sudden kidney failure in 7 month old Caucasian Ovcharka puppy) I was giving Loki & woogyboogy all my positive heartfelt thoughts ... gotta share 'em with Jane & Karlo now. Fingers crossed (tight) and lots of prayers. Come on Karlo.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Hope they get to the root and it is treatable....positive thoughts and good wishes for Jane and Karlo

Lee


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

positive thoughts coming your way.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Sending many good wishes and healing thoughts their way.


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## 94yj (Aug 29, 2013)

so sorry to hear prayers sent for a full and speedy recovery and for the family also


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Sending my prayers and good thoughts.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Good thoughts and prayers for Karlo and Jane!


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

We're praying in Missouri. Get well soon!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sending positive energy and thoughts.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Lots of prayers and hugs from Nikki and I...get better real soon Karlo!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thanks everyone, Michelle I appreciate all your support(and so many others!) on his condition. 
K had to stay at MSU, I am praying he will show improvement in the next 24 hours. Ultrasound is tomorrow. He is such a stoic boy, this has blindsided me.
Went off his food on Friday, drinking a bit more than usual. nothing other than that. But I decided to cancel training on the weekend...gut feeling.

I had to wait til Tues for his vet appt(wanted bloodwork done because of his lack of appetite and increased thirst) found he was in kidney failure with really critically high levels of phos. and creatinine. 
We decided to get him to MSU asap when his levels didn't improve this afternoon. I absolutely hated to leave him there...even though he is in the best place he can be for treatment. 








Thank you for keeping my big pup in your thoughts and prayers


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Sending out lots of positive thoughts!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It must be so hard to not have him at home.  

You and Karlo are constantly in my thoughts, hoping that all will end well.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Praying hard for Jane and Karlo.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

My thoughts and prayers go out to you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thinking of you and Karlo..... :hugs:


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## Alice13 (Feb 21, 2014)

I will keep praying for you Karlo

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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Get well soon Karlo. 

Hang in there.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Thanks everyone, Michelle I appreciate all your support(and so many others!) on his condition.
> K had to stay at MSU, I am praying he will show improvement
> We decided to get him to MSU asap when his levels didn't improve this afternoon. I absolutely hated to leave him there...even though he is in the best place he can be for treatment.
> 
> ...


Get well, Karlo!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Praying for the best possible outcome.. Hugs to you and Karlo.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Sending healing energy your way. Get well!


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

I just saw this on FB, Jane you and Karlo are in my thoughts and prayers ((hugs))


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Thinking of you.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Hang in there! Wishing the best! 


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't do prayers, sorry, but I am sending you both well wishes, good karma and positive thoughts.

Get better ASAP Karlo!!!!!!!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Sending thoughts and prayers for you and Karlo. Get better quick big guy.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Woke up this morning and first thing I thought about was how Karlo was doing. Gryffon sends kisses and wags to his "little" brother, and Keeta said she won't try to take his favorite Cuz or growl too loud at him.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jane, you and Karlo are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Hope he gets well soon


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Positive vibes!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Woke up this morning, thinking about you and Karlo. I'll keep checking back for updates. Praying for healing for Karlo and peace for you. You'll be in my thoughts all day.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Just saw this. I hope things have gotten better. You guys are definately in my thoughts and wishing him a speedy recovery.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

More positive thoughts +++++++++++++++ for Karlo's full recovery.

MJ


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Sending positive vibes for Karlo.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Zooming positive thoughts and healing energy to Michigan for Karlo! And :hugs: for Jane!


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Just saw this post.

Hope they get things figured out quickly!

You are both in my prayers!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Praying Karlo gets better soon. Hope they figure it out.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Sending positive thoughts your way again... Get better Karlo!!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Any updates? Didn't see anything on FB. Keeping Karlo in my thoughts today. Hang in there big guy!


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


>


Anyone want to add this photo to the Loyalty photo contest? I see loyalty on many levels here. Get well soon Karlo


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm sorry I somehow missed this.

Thoughts and prayers sent Karlo. Hope you get better as fast a possible.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> Any updates? Didn't see anything on FB. Keeping Karlo in my thoughts today. Hang in there big guy!


I don't think yet, Brandi. I think the vet is supposed to call her early afternoon.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Oh, no! I just saw this. Sending positive thoughts their way!
Sheilah


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Facebook comment update

"Ultrasound showed acute, which is better than chronic. Waiting for lab results. Thinking virus or bacteria...testing for Lyme"


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Thanks Michelle!!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Did she say if Karlo was holding his own? Is he responding to meds?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think she has those answers yet. Just that there are no obstructions and they are thinking viral/bacterial.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Keeping them both in my prayers....


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Just saw this, sending healing vibes to Karlo!!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Facebook comment update
> 
> "Ultrasound showed acute, which is better than chronic. Waiting for lab results. Thinking virus or bacteria...testing for Lyme"


OMG! 
Hope this responds to treatment quickly!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sending best wishes


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Sending positive thoughts,


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Lyme, lepto, and other TBD, glad they are testing...

Zooming best of thoughts....


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Praying for you guys Jane! Get well soon. Bill


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

I hope everything ends well for you guys !!!


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Praying for you guys ???


Sent from KenzoPad


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

Sending good thoughts and prayers. Paws crossed all is well soon!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Updating here. Thank you all so much for the support, it really means alot to me! 
Karlo's vet just called to confirm he tested positive for Lepto.
I don't vaccinate for that and look what it's costing my poor guy.
Who knows where he picked it up. He's not out of the woods but at least we have a diagnosis. His creatinine level has come down a bit and that is a good sign...it's still high at 8.4 but at least not in the 10 range.
I'm going to MSU tomorrow to try to get some food into him. Almost a week with no food has taken its toll. Keep the good thoughts coming, please!! And vaccinate your dogs if you haven't already, if you live in an area where Lepto may be a risk.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you should probably check out whether you should see your doctor and get vaccinated as well. I think that one's zoonotic?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yes it is Sue, I think most healthy people can probably fight off the bacteria....many dogs can as well. For some reason, K couldn't & it hit him hard. My other two are going in for vaccinations on Monday(couldn't get them in tomorrow) I'm keeping an eagle eye on them.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

selzer said:


> I think you should probably check out whether you should see your doctor and get vaccinated as well. I think that one's zoonotic?


Correct on being zoonotic. You are quite the wellspring of information selzer.

According to the link Jane posted on Lepto "The Leptospira spirochete bacteria is zoonotic, meaning that it can be transmitted to humans and other animals. Children are most at risk of acquiring the bacteria from an infected pet."

Get well soon Karlo! You can beat this thing.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm glad they figured it out and he can start getting better. Eat your food buddy and build up your strength! Keeping you guys in my thoughts. I will have to do some reading on lepto and talk to my vet.http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Updating here. Thank you all so much for the support, it really means alot to me!
> Karlo's vet just called to confirm he tested positive for Lepto.
> I don't vaccinate for that and look what it's costing my poor guy.
> Who knows where he picked it up. He's not out of the woods but at least we have a diagnosis. His creatinine level has come down a bit and that is a good sign...it's still high at 8.4 but at least not in the 10 range.
> I'm going to MSU tomorrow to try to get some food into him. Almost a week with no food has taken its toll. Keep the good thoughts coming, please!! And vaccinate your dogs if you haven't already, if you live in an area where Lepto may be a risk.


Don't be so hard on yourself. The vaccination does not cover all of the strains. There are about 230 forms placed in 8 strains. The vaccine might cover 4 of those strains if at all. There is a good chance he would have gotten it even with the vaccination. Hoping for a speedy recovery


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And, because it is bacterial, it (the vaccine) does not necessarily last a year. So, it is one of those things that happened. I am sorry. I hope Karlo gets better soon. Knowing what it is, hopefully they can help him beat it off. 

I think bacteria can be fought off with antibiotics, where a virus like parvo cannot be fought off with antibiotics. They may be used to deal with secondary infections. But the virus has to run its course, and the vaccine helps the body to build immunity from it. 

I am not so sure how the lepto vaccine works, but I have also heard that it only covers a couple of strains, and doesn't necessarily last.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Eat that food Karlo and get stronger! It sounds like Karlo is in great hands!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So glad they found the reason and are getting him the proper treatment. And am thrilled that his numbers are going down! Here's hoping you can get him to eat and his numbers continue to fall.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

so glad that you have a diagnosis and a plan 

Lee


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## JoeyG (Nov 17, 2013)

Wish the best with him!


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Prayers for Karlo! Glad you have a diagnosis and that his numbers are going down!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I'll be checking in tomorrow for more good news. Still in my prayers!


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

My first thought when I saw that there was no obstruction and it seemed more acute was Lepto to be honest. You don't know that there is an issue with it until they get very sick!  It's one of those sneaky ones since it goes after kidneys. You won't see signs of kidney failure until there is a lot of damage done. Antibiotics is the treatment as well as supportive care with fluids. It may take him time to fully bounce back too since the kidneys are not an organ that readily repair themselves after insult. My first shepherd went into acute renal disease after some doses of Deramaxx. You are going to want to probably keep him on a kidney related diet for a bit. 

Lepto is spread through urine, and it gets into the water sources nearby. If you have raccoons, foxes, squirrels, etc near your place, you could have it. I heard of a vet in Colorado who actually got it from the high power spray hose in their clinic! Generally speaking you need active contact with the urine or contaminated water sources. It is zoonotic too.

The vaccine for lepto isn't as good as for other diseases such as parvo or distemper because it is a bacteria. You don't usually want to use modified live for bacteria because they can mutate into an active form much easier than a virus and they can also mutate faster too. So you generally give it with something adjuvented to help aid in the body reacting to it. Most of the lepto vaccines out there have four strains. I can't remember how many there are, but they went for the more common ones that seem to be causing illness. 

There is a low dose vaccine out there that has shown good results without much for side effects. They've gone away from using things like aluminum as an adjuvent. They're using egg more now and I think there's even a company using canary pox to help stimulate the system since it isn't pathogenic to dogs/cats and far safer. Honestly there's been less reactions to vaccines that I've seen in recent years since most companies stopped using harsher components and Fort Dodge was bought out lol.

Many positive thoughts and support from me and my kids! <3 Your boy is in good hands and he is a fighter.  They are such strong troopers.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Keeping you both in my thoughts and hope he eats ((hugs))


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Friday wishes..... Get better Karlo!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Colie CVT thanks for the in depth lepto informational post. I am hoping for recovery. 
I pray that his kidney function returns to somewhat normal. I'm on a couple CRF pages and a yahoo group to get his diet in sync with his condition. Overwhelming information. A couple fb friends are sharing their experiences and the diets that worked for them. 
I think he picked this up off my property, as we do track often and train in a few areas where wildlife is always present. He's a dog that will lick when he scents something so I'm pretty sure he picked it up from licking a critters urine. My yard seldom has wildlife in it because the dogs often patrol and are out at night now and then for potty breaks. Kacie is always lassie barking to scare away whatever may be around. The koi pond is still a suspect.

I'm heading up to MSU early afternoon to see him, I'll report back after I return. 
I'll be in touch w/ my vet to be sure she's aware and giving the right strain of vaccine for my area. 
Pet vets have so much to keep track of, I can't imagine how they cope with so many different issues that pop up on a daily basis....and to have to stay on top of every health risk.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Colie CVT thanks for the in depth lepto informational post. I am hoping for recovery.
> I pray that his kidney function returns to somewhat normal. I'm on a couple CRF pages and a yahoo group to get his diet in sync with his condition. Overwhelming information. A couple fb friends are sharing their experiences and the diets that worked for them.
> I think he picked this up off my property, as we do track often and train in a few areas where wildlife is always present. He's a dog that will lick when he scents something so I'm pretty sure he picked it up from licking a critters urine. My yard seldom has wildlife in it because the dogs often patrol and are out at night now and then for potty breaks. Kacie is always lassie barking to scare away whatever may be around. The koi pond is still a suspect.
> 
> ...


I don't believe that there is a choice in what strain it covers and I don't believe the vet will know either? It covers what it covers, that is why the shot is so wishy washy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I couldn't finish my post, my phone went off I wanted to add its a shame that dogs can't do stuff they enjoy without catching something. He is in good hands with you I always wonder about well water with mine because who knows what seeps into the ground.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when you have a moment you may want to read this article about the vaccine for lepto SMOKE AND MIRRORS | Dogs Naturally Magazine

so glad that things are on the mend


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carmen - what is hte name of your green stuff that supports kidneys?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> when you have a moment you may want to read this article about the vaccine for lepto SMOKE AND MIRRORS | Dogs Naturally Magazine
> 
> so glad that things are on the mend


Excellent article. A friend of mine swears that her healthy dog passed away due to the lepto shot(organ failure).


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Glad they found an answer for Karlo and you. Continued prayers for a speedy recovery. I think you and Karlos will beat this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:hugs:All positive thoughts for you and Karlo this morning to get him to eat and his numbers keep dropping.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Pet vets have so much to keep track of, I can't imagine how they cope with so many different issues that pop up on a daily basis....and to have to stay on top of every health risk.


Jane, this is so true. When I was training and showing horses, I trained for a vet who did both small animal and large animal work (he even had a complete operating room for horses set up in the center of his horse barns) More than once he would talk about how easy human doctors had it compared to veterinarians, and the fact that he had to have more schooling than an MD. A friend of his who was also a veterinarian went back to school to become a medical doctor, and he really did not have to take that many classes before qualifying.

Above all, I know you have Karlo in the best place right now. When you go up to MSU this afternoon, take his very favorite things to eat, he may not really want to eat, but it is absolutely necessary that he start to get some food down. I lost my girl in 2008 to chronic kidney disease, we didn't even know she had problems until it was suddenly acute. My vet then said that even in the worst case scenario, if you can keep them eating, they stand more of a chance. Praying for the best for you and Karlo, and for wisdom for his caretakers.

Susan


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm very sorry to hear this. 
I heard from an internist once that dogs in kidney failure like sweet things for some reason. Just a thought. Maybe try a bit of canned cat food too. 
I have had several come back to full function from acute kidney failure/disease. I would leave him hospitalized on IV fluids as long as you can.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Keeping you and Karlo in my thoughts and prayers. May today find Karlo showing progress.


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## Audie1 (May 31, 2014)

My thoughts and prayers are with you both


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Sending good thoughts and prayers.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

are you asking about Phyt'n Chance .

the first ingredient would be split cell chlorella which is a powerful super-food , detox , aiding in elimination, providing protein for tissue repair .
Second ingredient is spirulina , another marine super-food.

Those two account for 30% . Down the list of ingredients there is marine sourced dulse .

Other ingredients , would be , green wheat grass, barley grass, nettles , ............. milk thistle seed , reishi mushroom 

this was NOT the complete list of ingredients , just some highlights .
Phyt-n-Chance-K9-A-Highly-Concentrated-Antioxidant-Blend


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, that's it. I recommended it to Jane but couldn't remember the name of it. All good stuff to support kidneys.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh , well , thank you very much for that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Carmen, I have been using your feedsentials trifecta since early July. I'm placing an order for your Phyt'n Chance right now.
Vet visit went pretty well. Karlo was a bit grumpy and agitated when we got him out, he barreled out of the cage and because he's hooked up to so many tubes, we had to try to keep him calm. He's strong!
He just wanted to push into me. I had to wear gloves, which made petting him odd. He's wearing a cone and catheder, tubes with IV. Hard to keep everything from tangling or getting pulled out. 

The vet tech gave me so much hope today. She(Dianna) said she has 'high hopes' for his recovery and that she thinks his kidneys will recover with little risk for his future. They had him on pro-plan(because that is the one food offered he would eat) and I was surprised, thinking they'd need him on a Kidney conditioned based diet. Dianna also said he probably would be able to go back to training/ not have to retire him. 
That was the cherry on the sundae for me! I know we have a long road of recovery ahead, he's going to stay there for several more days to heal. But from the visit today, it does look like I'll have my partner back where he belongs. 
:happyboogie:
There is power in prayer and good thoughts, thank you all so much for that support. It means so much to me!!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Ain't that just the best news ever? WHOO HOOO! Continued prayers for a speedy recovery for Karlo!!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

carmspack said:


> when you have a moment you may want to read this article about the vaccine for lepto SMOKE AND MIRRORS | Dogs Naturally Magazine
> 
> so glad that things are on the mend


That article IS the reason I refused the vaccination for my dogs. And now here we are....


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

I am thrilled to hear his doing better


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Hope he continues to get better!


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Great news Jane! Still praying for your handsome boy. Bill


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Such positive news for Karlo...fantastic! Zooming more positive and healing thoughts to the big guy!

Still sending hugs to you! I know what a toll it takes on our heart and mind when one of our furry critters is sick.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

That is great news Jane!! Keeping him in my thoughts and wishing him a speedy recovery.


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

Wonderful news! I'm so glad he's doing better.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm BEYOND thrilled to hear this news!!! So happy for you both Jane!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Read This Before You Vaccinate For Lepto | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I did some research after all this yesterday, and called my vet, whom two of which in the office I've been seeing for 23 years. They have treated 6 cases of Lepto in the last 5 years, all of which came from North Idaho (the panhandle). I live less than ten minutes from the border of the panhandle, in addition, Rocket spends an enormous amount of time out in the mountains backpacking and hiking. After discussing and researching the newest vaccines, his risk, I vax'd him this morning. He has been fine so far, it's been 9 hours and no reaction. I will continue to weigh every year, but I forsee more in the future. 

My vet also said most of the reactions were in toy breeds/very small dogs. 

I am SO glad that Karlo is on the mend. Man, how you get to know these dogs. ♥


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Glad Karlo is doing better. 

Can some people leave this thread as a get well thread and leave their views on immunizing out of it.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Happy for you and Gideon! Will see you at training soon.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

This is the best news I heard all day!!


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

hope the upswing continues.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Prayers for Karlo and also for you, Jane. With BUN/Cr decreasing, sounds like you have good reason to be optimistic for Karlo's recovery. Karlo's exposure to Lepto has changed my mind about immunizing our new pups for Lepto.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Prayers for Karlo and also for you, Jane. With BUN/Cr decreasing, sounds like you have good reason to be optimistic for Karlo's recovery. Karlo's exposure to Lepto has changed my mind about immunizing our new pups for Lepto.


Be careful vac'ing puppies and small dogs for Lepto. Discuss reactions with your vet in depth first


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Thinking of you Jane and Karlo.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

DobbyDad said:


> Glad Karlo is doing better.
> 
> Can some people leave this thread as a get well thread and leave their views on immunizing out of it.


It didn't start out as a get well thread... We first learned here about a medical emergency Jane's dog is facing. The information posted is helpful to all of us, especially those of us who live in the same state as Jane and Karlo. And of course, it is natural to give her encouragement, I think we can all empathize with her, for sure.

Susan


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Would you vaccinate against Lepto? (I realize it's a complex issue).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> It didn't start out as a get well thread... We first learned here about a medical emergency Jane's dog is facing. The information posted is helpful to all of us, especially those of us who live in the same state as Jane and Karlo. And of course, it is natural to give her encouragement, I think we can all empathize with her, for sure.
> 
> Susan


I'm glad you responded, I did and then erased it. It's obvious we all want Karlo to get well, but it's just important to understand risks involved with the shot versus not giving the shot.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Would you vaccinate against Lepto? (I realize it's a complex issue).


No I have never and never will. See how not complex that was


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> *It didn't start out as a get well thread.*.. We first learned here about a medical emergency Jane's dog is facing. The information posted is helpful to all of us, especially those of us who live in the same state as Jane and Karlo. And of course, it is natural to give her encouragement, I think we can all empathize with her, for sure.
> 
> Susan


Well yes it did. I asked for positive thoughts for Karlo to recover. Not sure how much more 'get well' you can get from that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've asked for the Lepto debate to be moved to a new thread. This thread really should just focus on Karlo and Jane since he's not home and healthy yet. It's Jane decision to vaccinate her dogs. Nobody else's.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Would Jane immunize against Lepto? No one knows the right answer at this point….it's a gamble either way. Risk vs benefit. we all want our animals to be safe.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, I know the answer. She is vaccinating her other two on Monday. And her right answer is not your right answer so you need to research and make your own decision on the risks in your area. How about we make a new thread to continue this debate and leave this thread to her dog?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

at the same time though , recall this "
Originally Posted by *onyx'girl*  
_Updating here. Thank you all so much for the support, it really means alot to me! 
Karlo's vet just called to confirm he tested positive for Lepto.
I don't vaccinate for that and look what it's costing my poor guy.
Who knows where he picked it up. He's not out of the woods but at least we have a diagnosis. His creatinine level has come down a bit and that is a good sign...it's still high at 8.4 but at least not in the 10 range.
I'm going to MSU tomorrow to try to get some food into him. Almost a week with no food has taken its toll. Keep the good thoughts coming, please!! And vaccinate your dogs if you haven't already, if you live in an area where Lepto may be a risk._

Don't be so hard on yourself. The vaccination does not cover all of the strains. There are about 230 forms placed in 8 strains. The vaccine might cover 4 of those strains if at all. There is a good chance he would have gotten it even with the vaccination. Hoping for a speedy recovery







"

all the side-bar discussions on vaccination are to alleviate any blame or guilt that she may have on not having vaccinated the dog .
If she decides to vaccinate her other dogs -- more power to her --- if she decides not to --- more power to her.

wish you the best --


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

You're right. Best wishes to Karlo. Our hearts and prayers (and good karma/best wishes/good thoughts) are going up for Karlo and Jane tonight.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

All positive thoughts being healed your way!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Have not really been on the forum but positive thoughts your way. IT is one we all fear and are torn on whether or not to vaccinate.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thanks again! for the well wishes, if only Karlo knew how many have been pulling for him! The vet called tonight while I was gone and talked with my husband. Liver is fine(Lepto can also affect the liver) and he's staying at least a few more days according to the vet. I wish she'd have called my cell instead so I could talk with her, but at least the call tonight was positive! I really miss K, this house is so quiet, the other dogs are bored when he's not whirlwinding his way around. He's the life of the party, can't wait to get it started again!
This is his dogtini imitation, he wasn't impressed~


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## TAR HEEL MOM (Mar 22, 2013)

I haven't been around much lately so I am just seeing this thread. I wish you peace and comfort and I wish for Karlo the best of everything. Much healing karma coming his way from me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Thanks again! for the well wishes, if only Karlo knew how many have been pulling for him! The vet called tonight while I was gone and talked with my husband. Liver is fine(Lepto can also affect the liver) and he's staying at least a few more days according to the vet. I wish she'd have called my cell instead so I could talk with her, but at least the call tonight was positive! I really miss K, this house is so quiet, the other dogs are bored when he's not whirlwinding his way around. He's the life of the party, can't wait to get it started again!
> This is his dogtini imitation, he wasn't impressed~


He looks so sad I think you caught this in record time.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Thanks again! for the well wishes, if only Karlo knew how many have been pulling for him! The vet called tonight while I was gone and talked with my husband. Liver is fine(Lepto can also affect the liver) and he's staying at least a few more days according to the vet. I wish she'd have called my cell instead so I could talk with her, but at least the call tonight was positive! I really miss K, this house is so quiet, the other dogs are bored when he's not whirlwinding his way around. He's the life of the party, can't wait to get it started again!
> This is his dogtini imitation, he wasn't impressed~


Awwww, he looks so sad! I know you have to miss him at home--but this is such a happy thing for you, I am so glad he is doing well!

Susan


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Glad to hear that he is on the mend!  Kenai really bounced back from her kidney hit and lived another three wonderful years before they really failed on her. Dogs really are resilient creatures, and when they have a will to live, they really have a will to live!

Only wanted to share my knowledge on lepto. End of the day, everyone's choice is theirs. I am not going to say bad one way or another, and I actually often am the person who talks about alternative things and just explains the reasoning behind the vaccine and what products we use.  My kids come with me a lot out in the mountains and we've had some positive dogs. No troubles with the vaccine and no sickness, so we're good with our plan. 

I will have to look into that supplement that's mentioned. I always like learning about new ones and how it can help. Nutrition really has a huge part in recovering from illness, and the kidneys have such a big job in the body, they definitely need help.  We're all still rooting for him to keep doing well here!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Was very sad to read Karlo was so unwell....... hoping he is home soon and makes a full recovery


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Saturday..... get well Karlo wish!


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## M&J (Nov 16, 2002)

I'm so glad to hear things are looking up. I despise kidney problems with the fire of a thousand suns (well, any disease, but especially kidney).

Prayers continue!!

Now I want to spray my yard down with bleach....I have a ton of squirrels that can carry lepto.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Colie CVT said:


> I will have to look into that supplement that's mentioned. I always like learning about new ones and how it can help. Nutrition really has a huge part in recovering from illness, and the kidneys have such a big job in the body, they definitely need help.  We're all still rooting for him to keep doing well here!


Ask Carmen to send you the list of all the ingredients. I looked them all up once. It's a good combination. I used it with Banshee for awhile


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## M&J (Nov 16, 2002)

We had luck with Renavast and another supplement containing xiao Cheng.

Rudy's numbers came down on them, but we sadly lost him to something else.

Still praying!!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I hope Karlo is back home very soon. I know he hopes so too. Poor baby.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A much happier photo taken today by his tech.







He now has his catheter out(hope it is permanent) and graduated to a kennel instead of a hospital cage. His leves are improving though still high 5.6 Creatinine and his BUN is at 44. A couple more days of IV's.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

He looks ready to come home. Glad he's getting well.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lookin' good !


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Relieved to hear that he's doing better. He does look a lot happier in that pic! Yay! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Excellent!! Keep getting better Karlo!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Way to go Karlo! Keep up the good work.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

That is fantastic news! He looks great. Continued prayers,


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Looks like he is glad to see mom.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Fantastic to hear the improvement! He will be home soon, I'm sure,


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

He looks so much brighter!  Glad to hear his numbers are going down too! Creatinine always seems to take the longest to go back down, but its more the indicator for kidneys. He looks so much happier than he did.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

He's such a sweet looking, handsome boy! So happy to hear that he is improving!


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Glad to hear Karlo is getting better. Kaiser had lepto when he was young and he recovered 100%
Casey and Gypsy never got it.
Wishing Karlo continued improvement and a full recovery.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Great job, Karlo! Keeping him in my prayers for continued improvement!!!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

You're looking good handsome boy. Hurry home to your mama. I know she is missing you like crazy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am so glad that Karlo is doing better and hopefully coming home today!

As for vaccinating for this I don't. But my vet's office had a case of it, and all the techs, etc, had to have some drug therapy to prevent them from getting it. Shortly afterwards, they made me sign a paper saying I am declining the vaccination. Now they don't, but they always ask me, "no lepto, right?" and I always say, "right."

Reading through the last link that Carmen posted though, it says that vaccinated dogs can shed lepto and thus the vaccinations can actually be creating the problem -- the more vaccinated dogs... And yes, especially young intact dogs, are going to check out pee of other dogs and maybe lick it. Gross!!! But it is a dog. 

So one or two isolated cases may make for a lot more problems by hyper-vaccinating all the dogs that run through their clinic. Scary stuff.

And yet, I have no intention to take every one of my dogs into the vet every year. If they aren't sick there is no point in taking them to the vet. I will vaccinate against rabies, parvo, and distemper as they are viruses. But vaccinating against Lepto for me, can actually create issues in my dogs. 

Tough decisions, really. I think that when I got Cujo II back the fellow told me he has been vaccinated for everything, except that he is due for a lepto shot. I hope so, because I hope that bringing him back into my home and yards is not going to spread a disease here. 

It is so frustrating to think that stuff we do to prevent issues can actually cause the issue that we are trying to prevent. And yet if we don't and our dog gets deathly ill, or even dies, we blame ourselves. 

We all know that there are diseases out there, else, there would not be a vaccine for it. Kind of knowing that dog from the internet posts, brings it closer to home, but we did know there was a disease before Karlo got it, and that he got it does not change the fact that the vaccine can still be ineffective, have side effects, and can exacerbate the problem. 

I guess for now, I will keep on keeping on. I would post this in a separate thread, but I haven't seen one yet. Personally, I think that since the OP felt guilty for not doing so, I think reading other people's decision not to do so, and the links which do throw a different light onto the vaccines, well it kind of fits in this thread. No way did the OP nor I not get it because we didn't want to take our dogs to the vet. If statistics were just straightforward, like 1 out 1000 dogs were to get lepto in their lifetime, but 1 out of 100 dogs had some reaction to the vaccine, then we could make a better informed decision for our dogs. 

So far I have a friend who had one puppy that died from the vaccine, and now, I know of one dog that has gotten lepto.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Aww, how nice of the tech to send you that picture! He looks like he's saying, "Ok, I gave you a good scare - now come get me outta here!" Hope he's back home soon.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

What a gorgeous boy! I'm glad he is doing better and hope he is back home with you soon.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Selzer , some breeders don't vaccinate their pups . They will select the strongest most vigorous one , vaccinate that dog , have him re-introduced into the environment where he spends his time with the littermates. He will expose them through shedding in the urine , a milder form , just enough to stimulate the immune response .
Then a person who chooses this method will titer the pups and act appropriately.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have to say, my vet is helpful with this situation, yet she is not happy with my decision to not vaccinate. I've put her property(and my own) at risk. I decided to put Kacie and Onyx on antibiotics as well as give them the lepto vaccination. Luckily we found an alternative to the very expensive doxy.
Karlo will be shedding the bacteria for a couple more weeks in his urine and I will try hard not to have him pee where other dogs are. Supposedly the bacteria can stay in the soil for several months.
This is such a nightmare....not just because I almost lost my heart dog, but because of the trickle down. 

I wonder if I'll be shunned when we ever do get back to training. I hope the ones I train with whose dogs may have been exposed due to Karlo shedding the bacteria before his diagnosis thru these past several weeks have problems. I alerted both places I train at and the person I was working one on one with. 
I know lepto can be anywhere, but seldom does one think about it. A few people who heard about Karlo's illnes went to look at their dogs records to even see whether their dogs were vax'd for it(and we know it isn't the same as an annual type vax that stays in system). Some are more aware than others what they give their pets.
I always try to weigh the risks/benefits and make the right choice for the particular situation. I failed big time in this one.
A few more days and hopefully K can come home. I'm thrilled that he is coming home!!! This has been the week from **** that could have been prevented.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

That's great news Jane! I don't think anyone at your club will shun you. You had no idea Karlo was sick. At my club, there are people who do vaccinate only neccessary things. You've been up front and honest with people...that's all they can ask for. Not every person takes into account other dogs that may have been impacted...you do. So happy and relieved to hear Karlo's doing much better!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

too late to edit:


> I hope the ones I train with whose dogs may have been exposed due to Karlo shedding the bacteria before his diagnosis thru these past several weeks *won't* have problems


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

One of my herding trainer's dogs came down with whip worms at a trial so now I make sure Stosh is protected. She tells everyone that trains with her that there is the risk that they are in the soil. Do I blame her??? No, I appreciate her vigilance and care for any and all dogs that set foot on her property. I know everyone will feel the same about your honesty and concern.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Jane,

I am so happy for you and Karlo, so glad he is doing so well. I am going to talk to my vet about lepto, I don't think I have ever vax'd for it, and I am probably only 100 miles n. of you. It still sounds like a hit and miss thing, even if you vaccinate. Sort of like the way they make the flu vaccine--a quasi-estimated guess on which strains we'll see in a particular flu season, and some years they are just way off on the guess.

Keep up with the updates and pictures--it's uplifting to see him doing so well!

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Jane, 

I found this on the CDC website:

"If your pet has become infected, it most likely came into contact with the bacteria in the environment or was exposed to infected animals. Your pet may have been drinking, swimming, or walking through contaminated water. Because of increased building and development into areas that were previously rural, pets may be exposed to more wildlife, such as raccoons, skunks, squirrels, opossums, or deer that are infected with leptospirosis. *Dogs also may pass the disease to each other, but this happens very rarely.*"

Susan


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I always try to weigh the risks/benefits and make the right choice for the particular situation. I failed big time in this one.


You're really beating yourself up here! Lepto is a non-core vax, and I bet if you took a poll here then those who choose to use it would be less than 10%, maybe 5%...not too many. Very rarely do I see people advocating this vax, or thinking it's necessary. You can't possibly be blamed ("shunned") for your dog picking something up in the environment. If anything, the people you train with should thank you for the eye-opener. 

I understand that having almost lost Karlo, it's human nature to think how you could have prevented it, and blame yourself. But we only can do the best that we can do, and life is never going to be perfect. Heck, I thought I was doing the right thing taking my dog swimming yesterday - until he ended up with a cut pad because some bleeper threw a beer bottle into the river and I missed a piece of glass when I was picking it up.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Glad to hear that Karlo is doing better! I hope he's home soon with no lasting kidney problems.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He's still in there. Today showed no improvement, in fact his numbers on phos and BUN went up a bit. I think it is because they are feeding him a diet his body isn't use to and it probably has grains in it. His kidneys need to work harder to get that stuff out of his system. I asked about a different diet yesterday, hope tomorrow they'll try a grain free or LID. 
I was so wanting to go and get him tomorrow, but now it looks like a few more days.

Karlo's creatinine is at 4.4 (normal is 0.7-2.0), BUN is 71 (normal 5-34), phosphorus 6.8 (normal 2.1-4.6).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Those numbers are less than 1/2 of when this started. It's looking much better. Why don't they just keep him on a kidney diet and give his body a rest? Are they trying to determine how he will react to a regular diet? Can you take in some commercial raw for him?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

you can't take him home and take care of him? or he needs iv and constant supervision?
and maybe you can bring food and they feed it? or they won't do that. 

I hope he's home soon


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He needs IV's still to keep flushing the kidneys.
They are against raw....said it 'causes gastrointestinal issues and not recommended' Even though I've fed it to 3 dogs for 7 years with no issues.
They draw blood every morning. He's where he needs to be right now, but it isn't where I want him to be  
They have him on pro-plan of all things.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> He needs IV's still to keep flushing the kidneys.
> They are against raw....said it 'causes gastrointestinal issues and not recommended' Even though I'v fed it to 3 dogs for 7 years with no issues.
> They draw blood every morning. He's where he needs to be right now, but it isn't where I want him to be
> They have him on pro-plan of all things.


oh i know. Raw is always the problem. a convenient thing to blame everything on. 

but can you buy the best food or even premade raw and let them feed it? or just the best kibble or canned food?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So just regular food? Not any special kidney diet to give his body a break? I wonder why. It would seem (and of course I'm just going on what's logical to me) that they would want to let his kidneys rest and not have to work so hard.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Jane, 

My prayers are with you and Karlo. He is in good hands. It us so hard to see them and not be able to help him. 

Is there anyway he is stable enough to he transfered to a local clinic for his remaining treatment? Do you have a vet that is trusting if you enough to handle IV at home? I know we have done it for clients that are well versed. I have done it on my dogs, but I am a tech. But maybe a closet 24 hour clinic can take over his care. 

No college or 24 hour facility is going to allow a RAW diet. Which stinks if that's what he is used to. But ProPlan is not tooooo bad. I feed it, my dogs do great. But it's gonna be different on his system. 

Have they started him on any kidney support supplements? Azodyl? Phosphorus binders? 

Again sorry for you and Karlo!!! You are a wonderful owner!! I am not a vet, but if you have any questions that maybe you don't wanna ask the Dr, let me know. There is a lot I don't know, but I promise to be 100% honest. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am debating on going up there tomorrow. But my gut tells me to stay away so it doesn't agitate him when I have to leave him. He was really confused on Friday, and now with his energy level returning, I know he'll be fired up when we see each other. Not sure that is the best thing for him. Though I'd love to take him out for a break....this is so hard! 
Thankfully I'm busy with VBS every evening so my mind can't dwell on it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They don't think he'll need a kidney support diet once this is over. I sure hope they are doing right by him. I'm always one to question, and not blindly follow. In this case, I'm blindly following because they are 'the best'. I did question the food they put him on initially, expected a diet to support his kidneys, not make them stressed from trying to expel the extra fillers. They are working his kidneys in overtime with the IV's trying to flush out the bacteria. Adding the food to the work is giving the numbers a plateau...hope tomorrow the adjustment plays out and he shows progress.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

They are really good and I'm sure they've dealt with this before. What levels are they looking for before releasing him?

I wondered about transferring him too but I know you aren't a terrible long distance from him and not sure if a local vet would be less expensive. Plus the concern of the lepto shedding might deter them?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My own vet won't want him there, and he's better off where he is>but the costs involved are scary. He needs to have his creatinine level at 2 before he's released, I was hoping today was another number lower, but it was the same as yesterday.
The BUN isn't as important as the creatinine. The Creatinine was at 10 when we brought him up there last Wed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

High BUN can be many things, including stress, but it's still important when combined with the high CREA. Banshee's numbers climbed a bit and then came down. BUT she was in stage 1 CRF so not sure it's relevant in this case.


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## Linda1270 (Sep 7, 2012)

I am just seeing this post, haven't been on here very much lately. I am so sorry that you and Karlo are going through this, but it sounds like he is in the best possible care right now and seems to be improving....slowly, however; improving.

I hope that his levels are back to normal soon so that you can take him home where he belongs. Being with you could only be positive for him, as your the one he loves and needs to be with. Sending lots of positive vibes Karlo's way.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I just saw your post in another thread saying he's not improving. can it be the food? like you said, grains stressing the kidneys?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The vet said the levels sometimes plateau. I ran up there today to bring some green tripe and ground raw. I was able to spend about an hour with Karlo today. He clearly isn't feeling well, didn't want to be out in the bright sun(they keep the kennel area dimmed so the dogs are calmer). Lost most of his muscle. We did snuggle for a bit, he pressed his face into mine for several minutes while I sat on the floor of his kennel. This was after he ate 1/3 cup or so of green tripe, he passed on the raw pork.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

(I can't see your picture at work, IT police) - I keep thinking of Karlo and continue to check back in. Big hugs to him.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Oh my God, Jane....You must be so worn out from this up and down health for Karlo...Please try to find some peace and pray to your higher source...(whatever that may be) and pray, pray ,pray for your loving Karlo...as we are all doing as well...please be blessed and stay strong....jan


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> They don't think he'll need a kidney support diet once this is over. I sure hope they are doing right by him. I'm always one to question, and not blindly follow. In this case, I'm blindly following because they are 'the best'. I did question the food they put him on initially, expected a diet to support his kidneys, not make them stressed from trying to expel the extra fillers. They are working his kidneys in overtime with the IV's trying to flush out the bacteria. Adding the food to the work is giving the numbers a plateau...hope tomorrow the adjustment plays out and he shows progress.


Have you asked them about why they are choosing that food? 
I would bet the answer is as simple as "that's what he will eat." When you have a very ill animal like that, you can't always feed them the diet you want them on long term, #1 because they may not eat it at that time and they can't go on not eating for days and days, and #2 because of the food adversion phenomenon where a pet will associate a certain food with being sick or in the hospital and then never eat it. I see #2 with parvo puppies a lot. I never offer a kidney diet to any hospitalized patient with acute kidney disease, I know from experience most will not eat it while sick. 
Intestinal cells get nutrition from oral intake of food, without they can start to die off. Exactly why I never understand when people give advice on here not to feed puppies with parvo, except that they aren't medical professionals and don't know better I guess.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They've tried a few different foods with him. Pro-plan is what he will eat. He's never been a real high food driven dog. I can leave yummy things nearby and he'd leave it until I released him. My concern is supporting his system while getting him to actually eat. He ate a can of food this morning before I went up there. I am hoping the raw tripe will help heal him, it is one thing he'll eat readily. If he never wants tripe after this hump, then I'll know it is the superstition of the scent/illness relationship.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I made a wish for Karlo on my wishing jar. It will work


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Jane,

My heart sank when I read the title of this thread. I am so glad to hear that Karlo has stabilized and will likely be back home with you very soon. Wishing you both the very best outcome!

My dog is not vaccinated for Lepto. My vet did not recommend that my dog get it because my dog has epilepsy and, as such, they prefer to be very conservative in terms of vaccinations. 

This thread has caused me to think that maybe I should ask a few more questions. My dog is often in forest preserves, lakes and other places where wildlife and other dogs congregate… and, as has already been mentioned on this thread, there is no shortage of rats/mice roaming around the alleys of Chicago :crazy:. 

Hmmm… we also have a canoeing and camping trip on the Wisconsin River planned for mid-September that Riley is coming on. I think I will be calling the vet this week.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LifeofRiley said:


> Jane,
> 
> My heart sank when I read the title of this thread. I am so glad to hear that Karlo has stabilized and will likely be back home with you very soon. Wishing you both the very best outcome!
> 
> ...


Thank you for the good thoughts!

the vaccine will have your dog shedding the bacteria for a few days. It requires a booster a few weeks after the initial one if it is the first time vax'ing. Read about the side effects and the effectiveness of the vax. FWIW, my student tech hasn't seen a case yet in her residency other than Karlo. My own vet(who supposedly vaxs all her clients dogs) has never seen or treated for a case of Lepto. Do your own research but don't be too alarmed because of Karlo's infection 
Leptospirosis Vaccines adverse reaction, Dr. Jordan DVM .


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

just checking in for an update, adding good wishes to gators' wishing jar?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> just checking in for an update, adding good wishes to gators' wishing jar?


 
Made the wish from you


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ugavet2012 said:


> Have you asked them about why they are choosing that food?
> I would bet the answer is as simple as "that's what he will eat." When you have a very ill animal like that, you can't always feed them the diet you want them on long term, #1 because they may not eat it at that time and they can't go on not eating for days and days, and #2 because of the food adversion phenomenon where a pet will associate a certain food with being sick or in the hospital and then never eat it. I see #2 with parvo puppies a lot. I never offer a kidney diet to any hospitalized patient with acute kidney disease, I know from experience most will not eat it while sick.
> Intestinal cells get nutrition from oral intake of food, without they can start to die off. Exactly why I never understand when people give advice on here not to feed puppies with parvo, except that they aren't medical professionals and don't know better I guess.


Thank you! That makes perfect sense! And I can vouch for the food aversion. Seger had ginger candy once, threw it up and now won't touch a ginger snap.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

NCHS | The Natural Canine Health Symposium - Presented by Dogs Naturally Magazine

might be of special interest to you









Jodie Gruenstern DVM DVA
Managing Kidney Disease


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

So glad that you have a diagnosis, and I hope that he gets better quickly. They *can* recover from acute kidney damage....

Did they say which strain/serovar of lepto? I tried to look earlier in the thread, but I couldn't find it, if it was mentioned.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LisaT said:


> So glad that you have a diagnosis, and I hope that he gets better quickly. They *can* recover from acute kidney damage....
> 
> Did they say which strain/serovar of lepto? I tried to look earlier in the thread, but I couldn't find it, if it was mentioned.


L. grippotyphosa 
The recovery is super slow.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

How is he this morning, Jane? Any improvement in his numbers? Still thinking of you and Karlo and hoping he's home with you soon.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Keeping you guys in my thoughts and prayers....


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Checking in on his progress...


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Sending lots of good thoughts to Karlo. Are they pumping him full of probiotics? Can you have some Reiki done on him while he's there?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They aren't giving him probiotics...they'd probably laugh at me if I suggested it. And I doubt right now that they'd help. He's on mega dose of antibiotics to flush out the bacteria in his kidneys. His levels did drop today, but it is so slow/frustrating. He's going to have to stay thru the weekend. And once they do remove the IV they'll have to monitor him for a day or two to be sure he is stablized without it. His creatinine is at 3.8, BUN is 55 (ref 5-34), and phosphorus is 6.0 (ref 2.1- 4.6). He's on a phos binder finally. 
He's going to be placed on a renal diet, they are trying different ones to see which he'll eat.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:hugs:It's going down, Jane. It will get there. I know it will.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Keeping him in my prayers - I know it's frustrating. But at least there is some progress. Big hugs to you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thank you both(all!) Today my sister found out her 11 yr old "Devo" has bone cancer. These dogs sure are heartbreakers.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't know Jane, sometimes I think ignorance is bliss. I don't think dogs are any less healthy today then they were years ago. We just know more and fight harder for their health now.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

What binder is he on?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> L. grippotyphosa
> The recovery is super slow.


I can understand wanting to vax to protect the other dogs in the area right now. Long term, I don't have a good lepto strategy.

I did some looking, that serovar may not be in all the lepto vaccines, so make sure it is in the one that your vet uses. Response to individual serovars in the vaccine seems to be pretty variable too, but they all seem to provide protection for some period of time, and the titers they use may not tell the whole story.

Lepto is a spirochete, like Lyme, so nasty stuff. Sure am hoping that he responds steadily and is able to be home soon.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

My vet vaccinates my dog for lepto because of all the wildlife and farm animals as well as other dogs that he's in frequent contact with. Thanks Lisa, I'll ask if the vax he gets has the serovar in it. I so hope Karlo continues to improve


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stosh said:


> My vet vaccinates my dog for lepto because of all the wildlife and farm animals as well as other dogs that he's in frequent contact with. Thanks Lisa, I'll ask if the vax he gets has the serovar in it. I so hope Karlo continues to improve


You might not even have this strain where you live. You would have to find out what strains are common in your area versus what the shot covers.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The vaccine covered the grippo strain(it is the most common one around here) The vet took him off the phos binder as it was causing gastric irritation. Karlo's appetite is still sketchy. I asked if they fed him the tripe and other raw I brought up and they are evading answering. Though weekends are different, his normal vet is probably off and his vet student told me this morning she's leaving today to do an externship in VA so Karlo will have another student assigned to him 
His numbers came down again today! But still too high to reduce the IV fluids. The BUN is 45 (yesterday was 55; reference: 5-34), creatinine is 3.8 (yesterday was 3.8; reference: 0.7-2.0; however dogs high end normal is 1.4), phosphorus is 4.8 (yesterday was 6.0; reference: 2.1-4.6), albumin is normal and continues to improve, potassium is normal. 

I can't go see him this weekend as they have limited visiting hours(8-9 am tomorrow). I have to work all day monday and will run up there if possible. My prayer is that I can pick him up on Tuesday.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Thanks for the update. We're still thinking of you and Karlo. This is one scary ordeal; I've never really put much thought into lepto before, but now I am definitely going to talk to my vet about the vaccine. We live next to a river, enjoy hiking, and have an abundance of wildlife around us. I hope Karlo continues to improve and is able to come home with you soon.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Karlo needs to be home! I will check with my vets about the strains that are present in this area.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm praying you can pick him up Tuesday too!


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

hope tuesday works out for you.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Good that the numbers are going down! I'm sure that he will be so glad to be home - sure hope that's Tuesday!


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Weekend well wishes for Karlo!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I was at training today and was thinking about you and Karlo. 

I know you must miss training and having your buddy at your side, so I'll share some of how our training has been going so you can be in on the training vicariously. Hope it will make you smile.  

I didn't do any tracking. Gryff gets bored, and once a month is fine, keeps him fresh and interested. Right now, if I entered a trial, he would be ready. I tracked him last week, and prior to that, a couple of months ago. Back then (two months back), the only issue was that he indicated on an article as soon as he caught scent of it, and platzed about 10 feet too soon. I simply encouraged him to continue on, find the article itself, and rewarded him lavishly. 

Then I buggered up my knee and was in terrible pain, and didn't go training for the next two months. My next track after that, I was amazed. First article, he indicated perfectly - the second article, the leg was going into the wind, so the wind was bringing the scent to Gryff. I was able to tell that he caught scent of the article about 20 - 15 feet away, and he slowed a bit and moved on cautiously, keeping his nose deep, taking in more scent, very focused at each step - he was making sure that he found the article itself, which he did, and indicated with it exactly centered between his front paws. 

I was pretty impressed! 

So no tracking today - one thing with Gryff is to not over do stuff - he starts to over-think things and gets hesitant wanting so badly to be right. 

The next thing we will work on is the re-starts. He tends to think he is supposed to restart on his own after an appropriate pause. Little detail iron out.  

This morning Gryffon did great in OB - even did superb retrieves. We did heeling with the gun shots, and of all the dogs, he was the only one to NOT react at all. Nothing, nada, not a start, look, blink, ear twitch. Perfect! For the retrieves, - I've been building his "dumbbell drive" by tieing him up and teasing it with it, but not letting him have it. Whenever we came to the section in our OB routine where I would work on the retrieves - Gryff got tied up, and I would have the time of myh life playing with the dumbbell, and I would tie it to a line and tease him with it like a toy on a flirt pole, but not let him have it. 

Finally today, I tested my 'technique". It worked! I got three good, solid retrieves!

And then we worked on rapid-fire control exercises in bite-work. He did awesome! I was so pleased with him.  

One of the club members who does some helper work for us saw a bite-work video where the helper would teach the dog to pull the helper's arm around his back (the helper's back), and twist, and this showed great power in the dog, made it difficult for the helper to stay upright. He set Gryffon up to show him how to fight this way, and Gryffon caught on by the second time around, bringing the sleeve around the back of the helper on the escapes and torquing, pretty much preventing him from moving forward. 

We have a trainer coming in a month or so to work with us in protection - he is friends with the club member. The Plan is to have Gryffon bring the trainer down.  Evil! We are all evil, Bahahahahah!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Castlemaid said:


> I was at training today and was thinking about you and Karlo.
> 
> I know you must miss training and having your buddy at your side, so I'll share some of how our training has been going so you can be in on the training vicariously. Hope it will make you smile.
> 
> ...


Wow, they are definitely brothers! Karlo is the same in the tracking and the retrieves....bore easily with exercises and don't want to be wrong. Teaching K active outs were important as helpers can never lock up with him. 
Sorry about your knee, glad you are healing up. I hope you can get some video of Gryffie when he's being evil! lol...and a howling one too. Tonight several sirens were going on and I missed K's serenade. Thanks for sharing your training session...it helps!
A few club members offered me their dogs to work today, but I couldn't bring myself to go to training without K. Haha, not that they'd really want me messing up their programs....well Lisa just wanted to laugh while Deja gave me some backtalk. 
No progress in the lab work today.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Updating tonight, Unless something changes, Karlo gets to come home tomorrow! He's basically hovering and not changing for the better at MSU, so he's coming home to continue his recovery. His levels haven't really changed, they will reduce his IV and I'll continue subQ fluids here at home. Karlo will be on a renal diet while he recovers. I can't wait to pick him up tomorrow, but a bit nervous as well. 
Please keep him in your thoughts and prayers....we still need them! I want this goofy boy back to his 'normal' self!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So glad Karlo is coming home! Hopefully the lower stress levels and time will do the trick


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Sending positive thoughts for encouraging progress. I think that being home with his peeps is going to improve his healing. Best wishes and I'm so glad you can get your hands on your boy!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

he doesn't look sick at all. if I didn't know he was I wouldn't know by this pic. good luck and hopefully he gets better fast


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

This has become one of the first things I check in the morning. Sending both of you my best wishes.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I hope he continues to improve and can come home today as planned. We're all rooting for you Karlo!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm so happy he gets to come home. I'll pray for his continued recovery as well as strength for you. It does seem bittersweet when we first bring an ill animal home. Your entire being wants him home with you, yet you worry you'll do something wrong, or miss something. 

You and Karlo got this. You are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Continued prayers for Karlo to come home and heal quickly.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thank you all so much for the prayers and good thoughts. I know they were important in getting him home and recovering. When I left him up there the first night, I wasn't sure I'd ever see this day.
We are home! He's a bit unsettled, not sure what to do with himself. He never ever gets carsick, but was horking often on the ride home(nothing was coming up) and then when we got home he did it again. I went thru a major storm on the way to get him, then on the way back, of course, traffic was backed up due to accidents. Took us forever to get home.








But we made it safe and sound! 
Very humid out, Karlo is use to the AC from the hospital so wanted back inside.








I have to give him sub Q fluids 2x's a day. Wish me luck!


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

So happy for you. And him.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Home is where the healing happens. I am glad he is back home with you!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Glad to see him home. I think being home will help him get better quicker. Hopefully you can get some rest too.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

So glad to hear that Karlo is home! 

*Re: SubQ fluids-*
I have been there and done that with a cat a long time ago. It is not as intimidating as it seems. I have absolutely no doubt that you and Karlo will handle that just fine 

*Re: my last post on this thread-*
It turns out my dog was indeed vaccinated for Lepto. It must have been another vaccine that the vet did not recommend for my dog. It seems that the Lepto vaccine my dog received was part of the distemper vaccine he received last year. 

While the distemper vaccine is 3- year, Lepto is 1-year. So, as I was at the vet today for his annual exam, we gave him the Lepto vaccine and his bordatella vaccine as both are needed every year. Yes, I know many will say bordatella is unnecessary. But, in Chicago, bordatella is required if you want to take part in training classes or if you have to board your dog.

*Re: my vet on treating Lepto cases -*
When I asked the vet about Lepto, she mentioned that she has treated a lot of cases in the last couple of years. The good news is that the majority of the dogs she treated recovered fully with aggressive treatment – like what you have done with Karlo. 

So, again, wishing you both the very best!!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

SubQs are really easy with a dog! Glad he is home and hoping his health steadily improves.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm so glad he's home with you! Best wishes for a continued recovery. SubQ fluids are easy to give; I'm sure you'll have no trouble giving them to Karlo.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thank you, your words help give me some comfort in giving him fluids. I use to give them to parrots if they were dehydrated, but that is a whole nother species! 
Karlo is so smitten with Onyx since he's been home, very odd behavior~he's not acting this way with Kacie, just Onyx, tries to mount her and won't leave her alone. I've corrected him, Onyx has corrected him. I may have to crate him tomorrow if this continues.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Regarding Onyx:Maybe he has found out that life is short, and he's acting on his previously hidden dreams?
Hey, we used to do SQ fluids on kids back when I was a very young nurse 100 years ago, it's simple and very effective. In fact, it's coming back into practice! It's a great way to help them recover at home.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Welcome home Karlo!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

First subQ treatment went really smooth. Took about 20 minutes, and Karlo was a champ, I didn't have to muzzle him either! After the needle came out he yelped a couple times as he moved because the fluid must have been odd feeling. One down, 13 to go. He didn't sleep at all last night, very restless.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LifeofRiley said:


> So glad to hear that Karlo is home!
> *Re: my last post on this thread-*
> It turns out my dog was indeed vaccinated for Lepto. It must have been another vaccine that the vet did not recommend for my dog. *It seems that the Lepto vaccine my dog received was part of the distemper vaccine he received last year.*
> 
> ...


Thank you for the good wishes. From all I've researched it is recommended to give the lepto vaccine completely separate from other vax's. And it only lasts about 6 months in the system, so for those living in states with seasonal changes, better to give it in the early spring so it will be effective during the wet spring season and thru the summer months. 
The bacteria doesn't live long in dry hot conditions, but thrives in moisture.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Glad to hear he is home!!! 

I have had several elderly cats in renal failure.....subQ fluids are no big deal...size of needle can vary with what is least distressing if he is quiet for the treatment...are you using an 18 guage? go down to a 20 if he is ouchy about it...fluid flow will be a bit slower, but still not too bad....

Lee


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm sure it's MUCH easier to give fluids to a dog than a cat! At first I was pretty intimidated by it, but now I can actually do Emmy's fluids by myself. She's been on an every other day regimen for months and will need them for life for renal failure. You can warm the bag in a bowl of water beforehand if it's cool there. I do that in the winter, but haven't bothered now that it's summer.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

hoping for continued improvement.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> First subQ treatment went really smooth. Took about 20 minutes, and Karlo was a champ, I didn't have to muzzle him either! After the needle came out he yelped a couple times as he moved because the fluid must have been odd feeling. One down, 13 to go. He didn't sleep at all last night, very restless.


Jane,

I was going to tell you to inject very slowly, but it sounds like you are. I am so glad for you that he is doing so well. I was in Lansing the same time you were yesterday, my sister is inpatient at Sparrow Hospital. And before I went to Lansing I had to drop my Orick off at the vet for surgery, she removed a lump on his foot. We won't know the results of the labwork until Friday or Monday.

Are you getting all this rain, too? Here I have a high drive boy with an incision on his foot, which I was sternly told not to get wet... I have found that sandwich baggies and masking tape work the best, the masking tape holds just long enough for him to do his business, then we get back inside (and I have to make sure he's not stepping into puddles that are too deep--we have had a LOT of rain today!). Oh--and of course benedryl and melatonin have calmed him down enough that he's sleeping a lot and leaving it alone, with just a sock on it while he's inside. I am trying to decide whether to put an e-collar on him tomorrow, they have to be alone here while I run down to Lansing again to pick up my sister... I'm leaning toward leaving it off, I'm afraid it will upset him more, he didn't like it when I tried it on him today.

Susan


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Susan - ask your vet for some IV bags. Cut the top off so his foot will go thru and put a strip thru it (or gauze) to tie around his leg. That's what our vet did for us. And do NOT leave the e-collar off!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Maybe it's because I do them multiple times a day, but slow is NOT better for subQ fluids. Get a bigger needle, squeeze the bag, have someone hold him, get it done in 4 minutes instead of 20. Trust me. After a few times, holding him still for 20 minutes is going to be a struggle. I use 18 g needles and roll/squeeze the bag to get it in as quick as possible. Use gravity to your advantage. The quicker the better.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I use the 18 gauge needle, it hangs from the shower rod and I do squeeze it, hold the tube so it isn't traveling back up but down. So far it's taking about 20 minutes( 1000ml bag) . Karlo chills on the bathroom floor while its happening. He has been poked and prodded so much lately, he's very good about it. Thankfully!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> I use the 18 gauge needle, it hangs from the shower rod and I do squeeze it, hpld the tube so it isn't traveling back up but down. So far it's taking about 20 minutes( 1000ml bag) . Karlo chills on the bathroom floor while its happening. He has been poked and prodded so much lately, he's very good about it. Thankfully!



If he is getting the whole liter, then yes it may take that long. You can also buy an infusion bag. It wraps around the bag, you blow it up and it keeps constant pressure. That will save your arms!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Susan, best wishes for a smooth recovery for Orick. I agree, leave the cone of shame on, he'll get use to it.


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Glad to read you got to take him home!!! I can only imagine how glad he is! Best wishes!


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Susan - ask your vet for some IV bags. Cut the top off so his foot will go thru and put a strip thru it (or gauze) to tie around his leg. That's what our vet did for us. And do NOT leave the e-collar off!


They did give me a couple IV bags, but they don't work so well. He is small for a GSD (57 lbs), and the IV bag is too big. I even cut one down and put a slit in it so I could wrap it more around his leg, but it slides off. I found that an ordinary baggy, foot inside, top wrapped around his leg and taped with masking tape works better for him. It's more flexible, and since I am taking him out only on a leash for now, the baggy keeps him dry, and I can throw it away and use a new one if necessary.

Okay--I'll put the e-collar on him. I know it's safer. When I had it on him today, I couldn't help but laugh, though... He would go through a doorway too close to the door frame, and catch the edge of the collar on it, and he thought he was stuck there, or that I had magically made him stop. He would just stand there with this forlorn look on his face, poor baby! I finally got some treats and every time he got "stuck" I would offer him one and encourage him, and, by george, that nasty ol' door frame let go of the collar! I should have taken a picture, the look on his face was priceless!

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Susan, best wishes for a smooth recovery for Orick. I agree, leave the cone of shame on, he'll get use to it.


Thanks, Jane. He's already doing better tonight. He's such a little wuss sometimes--he was a basket case when he was neutered. And this incision, according to my vet, shouldn't be too painful, but I was up half the night with him, until I borrowed some of my sister's Tramadol. Because he's so small I gave him half, and that did the trick.

I am SO glad for you and Karlo. Having lost my sweet Sarah to acute kidney failure in 2008, I was so afraid for Karlo. I know you have to be so happy to have him home!

And, yes, I am going to put the cone of shame on Orick tomorrow. And if he keeps getting caught on doorways as he did today, I will post a picture, it is so funny (Sorry for the laugh at your expense, my Odie boy!)

Susan


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Thank you for the good wishes. From all I've researched it is recommended to give the lepto vaccine completely separate from other vax's. And it only lasts about 6 months in the system, so for those living in states with seasonal changes, better to give it in the early spring so it will be effective during the wet spring season and thru the summer months.
> The bacteria doesn't live long in dry hot conditions, but thrives in moisture.


Thanks for the info.

Yes, I also read that there is some question as to whether or not the vaccine lasts a full year. It probably would be a good idea for me to better strategize on the timing of the vaccine. I think next year I might move the annual vet visit up by a couple months.

Honestly, until this thread, I never really gave Leptospirosis much thought (as evidenced by the fact that I did not even realize my dog had been vaccinated ). So, in doing some quick research on it, I was surprised to learn that it is has a relatively high occurrence rate in the Chicago metro area (city and suburbs). 

I recall reading that the number of cases typically peak in the summer and early fall months – although, this year it appears there was an advisory about Leptospirosis issued in spring by Chicago-area vets because of the number of cases that were reported early in the season. I believe they think the higher infection rates this spring had to do with unusually high amounts of standing water from melting snow/ice and rains.

As far as giving the vaccine separately, I thought that recommendation was more for small breed dogs. Ughh... more questions for the vet 

Glad to hear the SubQ treatments are going smoothly! Sounds like Karlo is a trooper!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

We're cutting the SubQ treatment dosage in half. So I'll have a few bags that are unopened after we're done. I would like to donate them to a rescue or shelter. I doubt my local vet would accept them. Wonder if the local shelters have rules against accepting Ringers?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> We're cutting the SubQ treatment dosage in half. So I'll have a few bags that are unopened after we're done. I would like to donate them to a rescue or shelter. I doubt my local vet would accept them. Wonder if the local shelters have rules against accepting Ringers?



I know at my clinic. If they are still in their protective bag, from a client we trust, we will take them as a donation. But a shelter donation is wonderful as well. Glad Karlo is doing well!!!!


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm VERY late coming into this, but I read every page and post. What a journey this has been and what a great mom you've been for Karlo. No doubt, he feeds off of and senses your strength and determination and love...

Just wanted to say that I'm glad all went well--as so often isn't the case--and that Karlo is back home. I truly hope all continues in a positive direction and Karlo is back to himself sooner rather than later...

You're both in my thoughts as well!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

One thing that also came out of this is exposure. Friend that works at former job texted me about her senior lab that was diagnosed with kidney disease. I texted back to have him checked for lepto, just in case, and she is doing that


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> We're cutting the SubQ treatment dosage in half. So I'll have a few bags that are unopened after we're done. I would like to donate them to a rescue or shelter. I doubt my local vet would accept them. Wonder if the local shelters have rules against accepting Ringers?


Is there an animal sanctuary nearby? They may do some of their own vetting like SubQ's. Or you could call MSU and ask if there are any other patients that might be able to use them. Or, post it on the CRF facebook page. There may be someone close to you that can use them.

How is he doing? Is he eating? have you had more bloodwork done on him yet?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> Is there an animal sanctuary nearby? They may do some of their own vetting like SubQ's. Or you could call MSU and ask if there are any other patients that might be able to use them. Or, post it on the CRF facebook page. There may be someone close to you that can use them.
> 
> How is he doing? Is he eating? have you had more bloodwork done on him yet?


There are a couple places that may take them. I'll wait til I know how many I have left and then place them with a needy rescue. 

He is eating now that he's on doxy instead of the amoxicillin, which upset his gut. I've got him on a homecooked beef/rice diet that my vet had printed out. He wouldn't eat the Hills kibble or canned. I don't blame him! I'll get his blood re-checked on Wednesday. He did come home with a mild case of kennel cough, and it seems that Kacie has now picked it up. She's acting a bit punky, no appetite(hope it is just from her antibiotics)

I read an article on the CRF page(Study by Dr. Dodds) that said BUN and creatinine levels in raw fed dogs are often higher than the norm. Interesting, I wish I'd seen that earlier. Not that it would have made any difference in Karlo's case, but good to know.
http://www.salukicanada.com/Archived_documents_files/Nutrition and the Immune System.pdf


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've seen that article before. The "norm" for raw fed dogs are slightly higher. My vets have always taken that into account when looking at Jax's and Banshee's bloodwork.

He's EATING!! Yay! There's step one! I might still have print outs my vet gave me for homecooked CRF diet. I'll look and see if I can find it. Hopefully I scanned it in!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I read an article on the CRF page(Study by Dr. Dodds) that said BUN and creatinine levels in raw fed dogs are often higher than the norm. Interesting, I wish I'd seen that earlier"

Yes . 
This is actually more the NORM .

The range which was accepted as standard-normal was established from kibble fed dogs as the model .

This little discrepancy in "normal" (true) values is something that vets use to alarm and dissuade clients from feeding a raw diet , recommending kibble instead.
Heard it used many times.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I just got a call from a friend of mine that was at the vet and the vet recommended the lepto. I completely trust the vet she went to as I have gone there before. He is against the whole over vaccinating thing and even told her that the 1 year distemper(that she got when I told her to do the three) would be extended to the three years because of studies done on the 1 yr versus 3 yr. due to the fact that she has an area of her yard that is accessible to all wildlife and lots of standing water I told her I would do it if I were her. That vet has had 4 cases of lepto, so it is present in her area. I'm also thinking that she might want to give the shot again around April or May when the rain hits in the spring. I am also heavily considering the shot, especially with the dogs I take swimming and hiking. I'm weighing the fact that for most of my dogs that the only vaccine they are getting is the 3 yr rabies and no distemper after they have had two rounds of 3 yr distemper plus their puppy shots. I'm leaning toward the lepto as helping and not over vaccinating. Now I do have a question, has there ever been a case if a false negative in the lepto test? When Robyn got really sick it came back negative and it confused the vets because they really thought that was it. I have since had blood work done in her several times because in the back of my head I want to make sure kidney and liver levels are still good.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would think they can see the bacteria and pinpoint which strain it is with the test. As it is not a virus but bacteria, I would think the test is fairly accurate.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Just wanted to say I am really happy Karlo is back home and doing better. He is such a strong boy and he has a very strong mother!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GSD Owner in Training :-) said:


> Just wanted to say I am really happy Karlo is back home and doing better. He is such a strong boy and he has a very strong mother!


Thank you! Karlo's mental strength thru this whole think has been amazing. He's back to normal and wants to work. I can't wait to get his body back in shape so we can get back to club. I still haven't pulled from the trial we are entering in October. When we get bact to training, I'll see where we are and decide if he'll be ready.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

photos from today, short but sweet training session. I could tell he's missed this game. He was a beast when it came to tug and wouldn't out. I didn't put a collar on him as his neck is probably sensitive from the cone he had to wear for two weeks and the sub Q treatments he's enduring right now. 
This shot was the best one of about 5, they were all shaky/blurry because he was yanking me around so much.








Doing the stand in motion:








So happy I get to see these days again!


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

So good to see him engaged in something he loves. Karlo wouldn't out on the tug toy; wouldn't out on his life either! Good dog!!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Such great news. He looks really good - especially considering all he has been through.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

He looks wonderful! Looks like he is starting to fill out again - LOVE the tub pic, such a sweet face!


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

He is looking so good!! Glad to hear he is excited to get back into training and loving every moment of it . Beautiful pictures, he has such gorgeous colouring.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Karlo had his blood test today. His levels are slow to come down. Liver enzymes spiked, but my vet isn't that concerned, considering what his organs have been through. We'll keep up with the SubQ until they are gone, so another week of once per day treatment. Karlo is such a trooper getting poked.
At the vet he saw one of the kitties that kept him company a few weeks back. This kitty is such a tease, I'm surprised she's still alive the way she taunts the dogs. The other one was adopted, so this one was really lonely and seeking attention the whole hour we were sitting there. Jumped up and into the room, just to get Karlo going, and then left. I guess it helps keep the dogs pre-occupied/stress level down!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

that's an adorable pic)))))


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

It's great seeing him look better, way to go


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

"Like"!


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

So glad to hear this!  Good boy, Karlo! It is amazing what they can pull through. The poor liver has such a tough job in the body lol. It is constantly filtering toxins out, but it regenerates much better than the kidneys do. I think the craziest things is how normal liver enzymes can get if you remove the tumor causing the issue or they just finally filter out all the bad in their system. 

Wishing you guys luck for October!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Yay!! Wonderful update!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Great job, Karlo!!!! Keeping him in my prayers that he'll make his October deadline!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I pulled from the October trial....though the club contact said she'd hold my spot and not cash my check just in case Karlo is ready. 
We won't get back to training til next week or the following one, though Karlo's mental state is begging to get back in the routine. 
I was going to track him this morning but it has been steadily raining, I decided we'll go out this afternoon for a fun track instead. We've been doing short obedience sessions, need to build the stamina up. 
Last night in the sunset:
















These weekends free from training are so odd, I'm in a funk.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Nice sunset pic-he looks good


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

He's looking great onyx'girl! Such a handsom boy and some great sunset pictures.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Closing this chapter titled _nightmare_
Karlo was able to go back to training today. He did really well tracking(4 corners, 4 articles, he ate the bait with gusto!) tracking conditions were perfect. Obedience was normal for Karlo, not flashy, but he was enthused. 
Protection was his happy happy joy joy.
I put him on a fursaver and a tab, and used only verbal communication, let him have some quick fun. He was clean with the helper, outed decently and had some deep bites. 
I really never thought I'd see this day....what a gift! 
Giving Jim(helper) the eye after our protection sesson was over:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm truly happy that things turned out well. No more nightmares allowed


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I love happy endings  My best to both of you!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

very happy for you and Karlo (never doubt the wishing jar)


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Jane,

I'm so happy for you and Karlo. When the news about him was first posted, I was so afraid for you, because I lost my Sarah so fast from acute renal failure. I wish now she did have lepto, we never did exactly know what happened. So glad for you!!!

Susan


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

So glad to hear Karlo is back doing what he loves.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thank you again for all the support and concern. Karlo continues to thrive! 
Here is a timely article concerning Lepto, thought I'd share it here. 
Leptospirosis: This Animal-to-Human Disease Is on the Rise


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Karlo looks great! I'm so glad he's made such an excellent recovery


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## liljoec (Aug 17, 2010)

I read every single page in this thread. We are going through the exact same thing with our 4 year old GSD, Jasper. He was diagnosed with acute renal failure due to Lepto on Tuesday of last week. 
As of Thursday, his Creatinine level was 12.7 and BUN was 150+.
His kidney enzyme levels have started coming down as of yesterday (9.9 and 90~ BUN) and we are hoping for the best. He has been in the hospital since Tuesday and going through the exact same treatments that Karlo had. Lots of IV fluids via a catheter and what ever other meds his dr.s are injecting. He is now eating well (was down to 77lbs and today was back up to 82lbs; normal is about 87). His attitude is greatly improved and my wife and I are desperately hoping our outcome is as good as yours.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It gives us a lot of encouragement.

Our Dr.s were hoping these levels would be coming down faster but perhaps from what I'm reading here that may not be the case? I really don't know what to expect.

Here is a picture of him that I took just before we went to the hospital.









I don't mean to hijack your thread, I just hope we are as lucky as you and Karlo. Thank you again for posting your experience.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

liljoec, I'm glad you shared. I hope Jasper pulls through easily. It isn't a quick fix for sure. I'm still dealing with some health issues/muscle spasms due to subQ fluids and now we have some bloody urine drips, so tomorrow we're going to get a bladder cytology culture run. 
Can you share your location and where Jasper's being treated? Also what were his symptoms before you decided to get medical attention for him? Has he been vax'd for Lepto in the past 6 months?
I've found it a bit frustrating in the 2 months Karlo's been home....my vet isn't as knowledgeable as I'd like as far as this condition is concerned and the vet at MSU also gave me information that later on I found out was more harmful(vitamin C supplement as an example...she said C is fine but in truth C is hard for the kidneys to expel and not recommended for a dog with renal failure)
Karlo's creatinine level is still higher than the norm 2.1, it does take a long time to come down. The MSU vet is more concerned about that level than the way the BUN numbers fluctuates.
Keeping Jasper and your family in my thoughts....it is a nightmare as you know.


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## liljoec (Aug 17, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> liljoec, I'm glad you shared. I hope Jasper pulls through easily. It isn't a quick fix for sure. I'm still dealing with some health issues/muscle spasms due to subQ fluids and now we have some bloody urine drips, so tomorrow we're going to get a bladder cytology culture run.
> Can you share your location and where Jasper's being treated? Also what were his symptoms before you decided to get medical attention for him? Has he been vax'd for Lepto in the past 6 months?
> I've found it a bit frustrating in the 2 months Karlo's been home....my vet isn't as knowledgeable as I'd like as far as this condition is concerned and the vet at MSU also gave me information that later on I found out was more harmful(vitamin C supplement as an example...she said C is fine but in truth C is hard for the kidneys to expel and not recommended for a dog with renal failure)
> Karlo's creatinine level is still higher than the norm 2.1, it does take a long time to come down. The MSU vet is more concerned about that level than the way the BUN numbers fluctuates.
> Keeping Jasper and your family in my thoughts....it is a nightmare as you know.



We're in Denver, CO. He started with his primary vet, Pets on Broadway but then (at their recommendation) we transferred him to Colorado Veterinary Specialists which is a 24 hour ER\hospital because it's more suited the constant care required to treat this issue.

His symptoms were that he had become pretty lethargic and eventually stopped eating. Originally, I suspected seasonal allergies and let it go. That's one of the hardest parts because I know we could have caught it sooner.

He has not been vax'd for this.

At first, our vet did xrays and spotted the enlarged kidney and ordered an ultrasound. The ultrasound confirmed a BAD kidney infection and acute renal failure. Leptospirosis was an early suspicion and tests were sent out. They started him on Amoxycillan and once the Lepto culture came back positive, they switched him to Doxycycline. 

We'll have his kidney enzyme levels tested again tomorrow as we've been doing so about every 48 hours and that'll give us some quantifiable data but tonight, when we went in to visit, he was such a happy dog. trotting around and playing. He's eating well and we're really hoping for the best. 

The vet hospital is an excellent facility. They call us with updates and we speak with the Dr.s any time 24 hours a day. They let us come see him any time we want. It's been just as helpful for us as it has been for Jasper. He has a massive kennel. Approximately 4'x12' floor to ceiling height with brick walls on both sides and an 8ft. bed. They keep the lighting down nice and low in there and he's getting excellent attention. I just mention that in case someone else in Denver reads this I think it's a nice facility.

Aside from the ARF, The biggest thing that we're dealing with is that Jasper seems to be struggling to urinate. When we take him out he is urinating constantly and it's generally a weaker than normal stream. if we play a little and sit for a minute then he has a normal stream but eventually it gets weaker. It seems like it takes about 30 minutes of walking a peeing to empty his bladder. This started at our primary vet's office and it was suspected that it was caused by having to hold it over night because the first vet's office doesn't have overnight care. I regret this very much but it happened. His first vet put in a urinary catheter and fixed it to his penis which was left in for 2 days. The 24hour hospital also passed a urinary catheter just to make sure there wasn't an obstruction and then did an xray which confirmed there were no stones present and then they removed the catheter. Since then he's not urinating normally but it appears to be getting better. There are a couple things that are being suspected. One is that the two catheters and the medicine he's passing are causing some burning and so pee'ing just kinda hurts. Another suspicion is that his bladder may be a bit strechted and the muscles are tiring from holding and passing an excessive amount of fluids for the treatment. But it's concerning to me because being able to urinate is a huge part of this treatment. Surprisingly, our Dr.s are less concerned about it than I am...

Anyway, sorry for the crazy long post. It does help mentally to just get it out of my head...

Please post an update about your vet visit tomorrow. My wife and I are hoping for the best for you. 

Best,
Joe


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thanks for updating. The fluids that Jasper is getting to flush the kidneys is making his kidneys and bladder work more than overtime. I wonder, long term if there will be incontinence(Karlo's recent dripping)
Karlo had a cath in for about a week(it was placed thru his abdomen I think, there was an incision area right in front of his penis) I noticed after he came home. When I went to visit him, he was very sun sensitive, they did keep the lights low in the kennel area, so outside wasn't pleasant for him.
MSU didn't really keep in touch, I got an afternoon update after his bloodwork came back and texts or emails in the morning from his dedicated vet student telling me how he was doing(eating, or not). I wanted more, and sat on my phone for those daily updates. His levels were slow to come down. They said when he hit 2 on the Creatinine, they'd send him home. It never happened, he plateau'd so we brought him home. I was about broke by then.

Karlo wasn't the best before all this as far as handling by strangers. He's got that Czech suspicion gene that dominates. Now he's much more tolerant of vetting(muzzle is a given) and doesn't fight blood draws or palpitation. I think he'll need sedation tomorrow, which scares me. 
There are a couple fb pages with support for diet and care of renal failure dogs, and two yahoo groups with knowledgeable admins, but the yahoo groups are so hard to navigate and posts are not instant...so frustrating.
I think I posted them back in this thread, if not~let me know and I'll list them. 
I'll update on our outcome, but we won't know the culture results for 48 hours. Another frustration, time is wasted too often!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Sending best wishes and thoughts for Karlo to continue his recovery.

Sending thoughts and prayers for Jasper's recovery. Take care.


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## liljoec (Aug 17, 2010)

I can post a positive update so far. Jasper was able to come home last night. His attitude is great. Good eating and drinking. His Dr.s weened him off of his fluids and his kidney values kept coming down so they released him to come home and we'll go in for weekly tests and see where his kidneys plateau. Hoping they return to normal...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So happy for Jasper!! What are you feeding him? Did they suggest keeping him on subQ's to help the levels reduce?
After our scare a few days ago, Karlo's doing fine too. His bladder cytology results came back normal! No crystals, and even though there was still a bit of blood in it, all tests looked good.


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## liljoec (Aug 17, 2010)

Nice! so they aren't too concerned about the blood in his urine?

We are going to test Jasper's kidney values on Tuesday and see if we need to re-evaluate his treatment but for now, we're doing a pretty normal diet (Taste of the Wild kibble, with fresh sweet potatoes and some fresh chicken maybe some egg or other good stuff). We really had a hard time getting Jasper eating again after all this. He was in fact anorexic due to the illness and I've been training him to eat when he didn't want to. It's funny how he doesn't want to eat but his desire to serve is greater than his own comfort. But he's eating well now so we're happy.

Our Dr.s have read some studies that indicate that the low protein diet doesn't offer a lot of benefit in these acute renal failure cases but is still recommended in chronic cases. so just getting him to eat anything was a net gain over not eating at all. 

After Tuesday we'll see if we need to do subq treatments but hoping to avoid it due to possible complications.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The creatinine level is more important than the BUN....hope the phos is down to normal for Jasper. If it is high, then you need to adjust the diet. I know completely how emaciated they get. Karlo looked horrible, but put it back on quickly...still working on muscling him up.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would like to update this thread for anyone that may have it pop up during a search on leptospirosis. Today, almost one year from the diagnosis, we ran a complete blood panel on Karlo to see how he's doing. 
I am pleased to share that his kidney function has totally recovered. He has been back on the normal raw diet for 2 months(bones included) and though I still will supplement with CoQ10 and B complex daily, he's eating the same foods he did before contracting the bacteria. 
There is hope with acute kidney failure, Karlo is proof of it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That is wonderful news! So happy for you guys. Your Karlo is a fighter through and through!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

That is such great news! :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Great news!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

That's fantastic Jane. So glad that Karlo has recovered. and things are back to normal.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

That's awesome!


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

That is the best news!! So very happy for all of you!!


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