# Good kibble to feed with raw-- opinions?



## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

Looking for opinions on a good kibble to supplement a raw diet. We live in Alaska and have very limited access to protein varieties, organ meats, etc. and what is available is extremely expensive. I can't afford to feed strictly raw, and I also worry about my ability to keep his diet balanced on raw alone. Believe me, if I could afford to, I would likely try raw all the time, but I just can't!

I know many people have had success feeding kibble and raw together (and I have also heard many warn against it). I'm looking to feed raw one meal and kibble one meal a day. I'm obviously looking for high quality kibble, and I also need something that's highly digestible. My dog has had persistent GI issues.

The brands I've been looking at are Orijen Adult, Nature's Logic, and Dr. Tim's Momentum. I like the look of Dr. Tim's because of the extremely high calorie content, and 94% of the protein is animal derived. I've read that Nature's Logic has been helpful for some dogs with digestive issues and chronic diarrhea. And, of course, Orijen is supposed to be the best of the dog foods, but I've also heard that some dogs don't do well on it.

It's pricey to have things shipped up here so I want to make sure when I do make a purchase we're going to have a good shot at him liking it, eating it, and doing well on it. What are your recommendations? For those of you that feed raw and kibble, what kibble do you feed? Does anyone have experience feeding any of these three brands? Would it be worth it to buy small bags and test them out, or should I pick one and go all-in on a 30 pounder? I can only get Dr. Tim's in the 50# bags, but I can get smaller sizes of Nature's Logic or Orijen online.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hellooooo Alaska!
I would go with the Nature's Logic if you can't get Orijen's sister food Acana. Orijen does tend to give some dogs diarrhea and if your baby already has stomach problems you don't want to feed something that might upset her gut. You should get a digestive enzyme & probiotic for her to help with this. Here is one that is top quality: *Digestive Enzyme/Probiotic Combination Powder:* “Digest All Plus” The Wholistic Pet 

You might also want to consider adding water to His/Her food and letting it set for a while. When dogs eat dry food, moisture has to be pulled from the gut to be able to move it thru and digest it. Years and years of this could create problems for some dogs especially if they tend to already have gut problems.

Here is some info: Dr. Tim's food: in the top 6 ingredients there is only one meat source which makes it grain heavy.
Contains: DL-Methionine: Which is a lab made amino acid. Per Dr. Aldrich, a pet food industry advisor: The starting materials for production of DL methionine are acrolein (a 3-carbon aldehyde) derived from propylene (a petroleum derivative), methyl mercaptan derived from methanol and various sulfur sources and hydrocyanic acid (HCN).” Studies on rats have shown an increase in cancerous tumors from ingestion.


*Canola Oil: *The Weston A. Price Foundation article quotes numerous studies of the effects of Canola oil in animals; “These studies all point in the same direction--that canola oil is definitely not healthy for the cardiovascular system. Like rapeseed oil, its predecessor, canola oil is associated with fibrotic lesions of the heart. It also causes vitamin E deficiency, undesirable changes in the blood platelets and shortened life-span in stroke-prone rats when it was the only oil in the animals' diet. Furthermore, it seems to retard growth, which is why the FDA does not allow the use of canola oil in infant formula.” Journalist David Lawrence Dewey quotes research from the University of Florida that “determined that as muh as 4.6% of all the fatty acids in unrefined canola are ‘trans’ isomers (which are somewhat like plastic) due to the refining process.”

Just something for you to consider!
Moms


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

i saw this idea in a few places. i always mixed dry and wet, i only saw this after i made the switch to raw. i don't know if this is true or not, i don't have the education to decide for myself.

what do you think?



the below is from a cat froum but i'm assuming it applies to any dry food

faqs - cat nutrition



> *How about if I soak the dry food in water until it's completely soft to change the texture and then add raw to that to trick my cat into eating the new food? *
> 
> Please, please don't do that. Please.
> 
> Dry food, when moistened, is essentially transformed into *bacterial soup*. The bacteria load is extremely high in dry food. Add water to the mix, and you've just created an ideal environment for fungi and bacteria to multiply. When you moisten dry food, for example, you make it possible to quickly grow fungi in the food resulting in vomitoxin, aflatoxin, and mycotoxin production. Vomitoxin is a toxic substance produced by mold that can (and has) contaminated wheat used in dry pet foods resulting in serious illness and even death.


 

ETA and then i saw this on yahoo answers



> Nonsense.
> 
> If there's bacteria, there's bacteria. Wet food "activates" nothing that saliva and stomach juices wouldn't do.
> 
> ...


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

"Show Breeder" is correct!
You wouldn't put water on the food and leave it down all day! Dogs should have about 10-15 minutes to eat their food and then it is picked up. If they leave some, either put it in the frig to stay cold until the next meal or throw it out!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> "Show Breeder" is correct!
> You wouldn't put water on the food and leave it down all day! Dogs should have about 10-15 minutes to eat their food and then it is picked up. If they leave some, either put it in the frig to stay cold until the next meal or throw it out!


Lol was just wondering. What the show breeder said makes sense, there's saliva at the very least. 


But are you saying that moisture does multiply bacteria so it just comes down to how long it's allowed to sit there?


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hellooooo Alaska!
> I would go with the Nature's Logic if you can't get Orijen's sister food Acana. Orijen does tend to give some dogs diarrhea and if your baby already has stomach problems you don't want to feed something that might upset her gut. You should get a digestive enzyme & probiotic for her to help with this. Here is one that is top quality: *Digestive Enzyme/Probiotic Combination Powder:* “Digest All Plus” The Wholistic Pet
> 
> You might also want to consider adding water to His/Her food and letting it set for a while. When dogs eat dry food, moisture has to be pulled from the gut to be able to move it thru and digest it. Years and years of this could create problems for some dogs especially if they tend to already have gut problems.
> ...


Hi Moms,

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm already giving enzymes and probiotics (NWC Naturals Total-zymes and Total-biotics)... not sure if they're helping or not. Since he's not on kibble at all right now I don't have to worry about wetting down his food. But it's definitely something I'll consider when I add kibble back in.

I've looked at Acana but have been leaning more toward Orijen (or something similar) because of the higher calorie content. Orijen adult has 478 kcal/cup, Dr. Tim's 588 kcal/cup. Nature's Logic is lower (345 kcal/cup) but I had it on the list because of its reputed track record with GI-troubled dogs. The higher the calories the better, in my mind, so I can keep his meals small while the energy per meal stays high. I just looked at Acana Sport and Agility, which has 475 kcal/cup, so perhaps that would be suitable and easier on his intestines than Orijen, but I haven't been able to find it anyplace online that will ship to AK.

I agree that Dr. Tim's Momentum only having chicken meal and not other meat sources at the top of the ingredient list isn't great. But with 35% protein content and 94% of that coming from animal sources, does that suggest a relatively high meat content anyway? I'm so bad at dog food math. 

The canola oil stuff is interesting. I've read that it's primarily related to GMO rapeseed-- is that consistent with what you've heard?


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

lalachka said:


> But are you saying that moisture does multiply bacteria so it just comes down to how long it's allowed to sit there?


That seems about right, based on what I've learned. The moist environment of wettened kibble or canned dog food provide a nice place for bacteria to grow and multiply. If left out over long periods I'm sure bowls of food become overrun by nasties. But I don't think it's harmful to let a bit of water and kibble sit for fifteen minutes to a half hour or so before feeding, so long as the dog finishes it's meal right away. I'm thinking mostly from the perspective of owners of dogs with EPI-- they have to "pre-digest" their dogs' food with digestive enzymes for up to half and hour before feeding with a bit of water added, so it must not be too detrimental.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

_Zero_ said:


> That seems about right, based on what I've learned. The moist environment of wettened kibble or canned dog food provide a nice place for bacteria to grow and multiply. If left out over long periods I'm sure bowls of food become overrun by nasties. But I don't think it's harmful to let a bit of water and kibble sit for fifteen minutes to a half hour or so before feeding, so long as the dog finishes it's meal right away. I'm thinking mostly from the perspective of owners of dogs with EPI-- they have to "pre-digest" their dogs' food with digestive enzymes for up to half and hour before feeding with a bit of water added, so it must not be too detrimental.


got it)))) thank you


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

High protein, whole food kibbles pair well with a raw diet. Orijen, Acana, Nature's Variety Instinct, Merrick Grain Free are my top recommendations.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I have been looking into this as well... I've fed Orijen mostly when I wasn't doing raw but after doing some research into Orijen, I'm not so sure I want to feed it anymore... they seem to have some shady business practices along with lots of GMO's in their foods and a steep price tag. I like Nature's Variety 'but' their rabbit formulas sources their rabbit from China so that makes me not want to use their food period. I guess I'm picky, LOL. I've been looking into doing Fromm again or Go! I wish I could do raw full time, it's just not feasible right now(no space).


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

Wild Wolf said:


> High protein, whole food kibbles pair well with a raw diet. Orijen, Acana, Nature's Variety Instinct, Merrick Grain Free are my top recommendations.


I'd almost forgotten about Nature's Variety Instinct-- that's on my list as well. I'm not sure about Merrick because their grain free varieties are heavy on sweet potato, and I don't think my dog does very well with sweet potato. 

How do people make these decisions? I'm completely overwhelmed trying to pick one. :crazy:


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

Carriesue said:


> I have been looking into this as well... I've fed Orijen mostly when I wasn't doing raw but after doing some research into Orijen, I'm not so sure I want to feed it anymore... they seem to have some shady business practices along with lots of GMO's in their foods and a steep price tag. I like Nature's Variety 'but' their rabbit formulas sources their rabbit from China so that makes me not want to use their food period. I guess I'm picky, LOL. I've been looking into doing Fromm again or Go! I wish I could do raw full time, it's just not feasible right now(no space).


Interesting... I've been reluctant about Orijen mostly because I've heard GI sensitive dogs don't always do well with it, and reluctant about Acana because of the lower protein and kcal content, but I didn't know about the GMOs. Seems a little strange given their overall reputation and the way they market their brand. The price tag is what really kills me, though. 

As far as Nature's Variety, I'm not sure I like that kind of product sourcing, but we're avoiding rabbit as a "backup" novel protein should he start developing food intolerance. He's had just about every protein source out there other than pheasant, sardine, and rabbit, so I'm keeping those aside for dire situations. Not sure I entirely buy into the idea of novel proteins and developed protein intolerance, but, what can I say... I'm a sucker for covering my bases.

Fromm has a ton of variety but just doesn't seem to have the balance that I'm looking for. I do like the look of some of the Go! varieties, though. The sensitivity and shine grain free, potato free turkey looks pretty good, although I wish it had a higher fat content (say, 20% instead of 16%).


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I know! I've been trying to decide on a food as well... Have you looked at a food called Zignature? No potatoes, limited ingredient and a decent amount of different protein sources to choose from. My dogs are on it right now because I'm trying to figure out any allergy issues going on with one of them(though my GSD so far doesn't seem to have any). Probably hard to find locally but their website has a store locator and many places online carry it as well.

Could you explain what you mean with Fromm?


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

Carriesue said:


> Could you explain what you mean with Fromm?


Maybe not, but I'll try.  I guess with Fromm there are a lot of choices for proteins/flavors, but each of them as individuals just seem to be _so many_ ingredients in all their mixtures. Orijen/Dr. Tim's/Acana/etc. have a lot of ingredients as well, and I'm not necessarily looking for a limited ingredient diet, but with Fromm it seems the ingredient list keeps going. I'm trying to limit the amount of potato in his food, because I'm not sure he does well on it, and then with the cheese, tomato pomace, zuchini, pea flower, etc. it's a little overwhelming. With his persistent intestinal troubles, I'm just concerned that something with that many ingredients would give him diarrhea. I guess maybe it's not all that different from Nature's Variety, but Nature's Variety does have a limited ingredient formula. Maybe it's just that it has potatoes.

Or maybe I'm crazy. :crazy: But for some reason looking at their formulas it has never appealed to me as being one I'd consider for Rigby.

Sorry-- I probably didn't explain that one well at all.


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## vukc (Dec 22, 2009)

If your dog is having GI issues in addition to RAW I would suggest using Natures Variety LID. My dog had great results with this one Nature's Variety Instinct: Limited Ingredient Diet: Lamb Meal Formula for dogs | Nature's Variety

Good luck.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I highly recommend Go. I work in a pet supply store and I often recommend it for dogs with persistent GI issues and 9.5 times out of 10 they digest it exceptionally well. Also some of their formulas are very high kcal/cup. I know the regular chicken and rice and the fit & free formulas are very high. And they do have potato free options. My guys have done the best on the Fit and Free line.
I have fed many types of kibble and I have always been the happiest with the Go line of foods.


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

vukc said:


> If your dog is having GI issues in addition to RAW I would suggest using Natures Variety LID. My dog had great results with this one Nature's Variety Instinct: Limited Ingredient Diet: Lamb Meal Formula for dogs | Nature's Variety
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks for the suggestion! I am starting to lean more towards Nature's Variety, as several people have suggested it. I do wish their LID had higher protein/higher calories, but I might try it nonetheless.


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

Mikelia said:


> I highly recommend Go. I work in a pet supply store and I often recommend it for dogs with persistent GI issues and 9.5 times out of 10 they digest it exceptionally well. Also some of their formulas are very high kcal/cup. I know the regular chicken and rice and the fit & free formulas are very high. And they do have potato free options. My guys have done the best on the Fit and Free line.
> I have fed many types of kibble and I have always been the happiest with the Go line of foods.


I'll have to take a closer look at the Go foods. It's not a brand I'm familiar with. I'm so lost right now. I will have narrowed it down to a few choices, then change my mind again. I think we're still a couple weeks out from being ready to order any kibble, but I sure wish it were easier to pick a good one. Too bad dogs can't tell us what they want, and what works. It would be so much easier than having to buy something online and pay to have it shipped up here just for him to snub it or have diarrhea!


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## AgilityAce (Sep 13, 2013)

_Zero_ said:


> Hi Moms,
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions. I'm already giving enzymes and probiotics (NWC Naturals Total-zymes and Total-biotics)... not sure if they're helping or not. Since he's not on kibble at all right now I don't have to worry about wetting down his food. But it's definitely something I'll consider when I add kibble back in.
> 
> ...


Go with Dr. Tim's. Orijen is junk but the company does market well. All you guys swallow the hook on meat protein just because Orijen splits all the ingredients. The truth is Orijen is well below 90% animal protein now because of all the beans, but it disguises it by listing so many small ingredients.

Dr. Tim's is a pro-grade food and Momentum is in the top 5 of all dry foods on the market. Will Dr. Tim's win three Iditarods in a row, that is the question. By the way Dr. Tim's is close to 60% concentrated animal protein. There is more animal protein in Dr. Tim's and about half the carbohydrates as Orijen.

Orijen is pure marketing.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

AgilityAce said:


> Go with Dr. Tim's. Orijen is junk but the company does market well. All you guys swallow the hook on meat protein just because Orijen splits all the ingredients. The truth is Orijen is well below 90% animal protein now because of all the beans, but it disguises it by listing so many small ingredients.
> 
> Dr. Tim's is a pro-grade food and Momentum is in the top 5 of all dry foods on the market. Will Dr. Tim's win three Iditarods in a row, that is the question. By the way Dr. Tim's is close to 60% concentrated animal protein. There is more animal protein in Dr. Tim's and about half the carbohydrates as Orijen.
> 
> Orijen is pure marketing.


Hi!
Can you explain? I see the first *11* ingredients in the Orijen Adult variety as protein then again protein in #*13* & #*14*. Thanks.
Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Interesting! I was already off the Champion foods bandwagon... My only issue is ALL their food is chicken based and I like to provide various sources of protein. Also a lot of GSD's are allergic to chicken, I hope they decide to bring in more protein sources at some point because overall it looks like an excellent food.

Two exerts from dog food advisory:
"Dr. Tim's has only one major source of protein, the Chicken Meal. Due to it's high total protein content, we can deduce that there is a LOT of chicken meal. Meanwhile other dog foods will have things like peas to boost the protein content which aren't as great as a meat base.

Then there are things like yeast, inulin and minerals which can make the food easier to digest and help encourage healthy bacteria in the dogs belly."

"Dr. Tim's is easily one of the best foods on the market. The protein content ranges from about 85% - 95% meat protein depending on the formula and Momentum has about the same carbohydrate level as Evo, without the risk. He markets the average among the formulas at 87% I believe. The Pursuit formula has to be a little over 90%. The other thing is that real competitive teams use this food line.

IMO Pursuit is probably the best and most flexible food on the market."

Also Dr. Tim himself is replying to questions on the food advisory sight, big thumbs up! I love supporting dedicated service like that.


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Also on dog food chat, he is a member and will answer any questions you may have. So you can reach him there as well.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## AgilityAce (Sep 13, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hi!
> Can you explain? I see the first *11* ingredients in the Orijen Adult variety as protein then again protein in #*13* & #*14*. Thanks.
> Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium.


Yes its all optics. Orijen is 38% protein and it doesn't matter how many ingredients there are. The first 11 ingredients are 90% water. If you adjust for the water those 11 ingredients make up about 5% - 7% of the finished product. Orijen splits the ingredients to make it appear there is more protein. Now, look further you will see 4 legumes products, all split into 4 ingredients so they stay further down the list.

Don't be fooled by all this labeling nonsense. By the way, I notice Orijen claims all those fruits are fresh and Canadian. Is it possible to grow all those things in Canada year round? I doubt it.


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## Waldi (Jun 14, 2013)

AgilityAce said:


> Yes its all optics. Orijen is 38% protein and it doesn't matter how many ingredients there are. The first 11 ingredients are 90% water. If you adjust for the water those 11 ingredients make up about 5% - 7% of the finished product. Orijen splits the ingredients to make it appear there is more protein. Now, look further you will see 4 legumes products, all split into 4 ingredients so they stay further down the list.
> 
> Don't be fooled by all this labeling nonsense. By the way, I notice Orijen claims all those fruits are fresh and Canadian. Is it possible to grow all those things in Canada year round? I doubt it.


 
I do mnot use Orijen, but no my second dog GS puppy in on Acana and I found it to be excellent food. I have older dog that has some issues with Gi sensitivity and tried different food and ended up with Acana. Simply, looking at her you see based on her coat, that ther is something good about that food. I do not understand attacks on Orijen, as I found in many independed dog food reviews to be the top choice. I have resaerched a lot and tested a lot and found this to be excellent, well balanced food. people have been asking me what type of food I am feedeng my dog that she has such a shiny coat. The manufacturer of Orijen and Acana is the same company and it is not one of those maga companies but rather smaller regional one focused on quality. My puppy came with bag of food from breeder that was not bad but she was not looking as good as after I switched her to Acna brand.


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

AgilityAce said:


> Yes its all optics. Orijen is 38% protein and it doesn't matter how many ingredients there are. The first 11 ingredients are 90% water. If you adjust for the water those 11 ingredients make up about 5% - 7% of the finished product. Orijen splits the ingredients to make it appear there is more protein. Now, look further you will see 4 legumes products, all split into 4 ingredients so they stay further down the list.


An interesting point and one I've always wondered about with dog food brands. Although companies list the ingredients in order of descending quantity and have protein and fat percentages, unless the company will specifically send you a list of how much of each ingredient goes into the kibble mix, it is very difficult to say how much of each type of meat or grain or veggie, etc. goes into the food. 

Come to think of it, now, I wonder if some of these companies *would* actually send a quantitative ingredient list, e.g. 16% chicken, 4% chicken fat... I do wonder if we'd find that some dog foods with more meat sources listed actually have less meat overall than some with fewer meat ingredients. Who knows?

That being said, I think Orijen/Acana/etc. are fine foods. Not all dog foods are created equal but I think among "higher quality" kibbles it comes down to each individual dog and what seems to work for him/her. I've heard plenty of people (independent online reviewers included) rave about Orijen, and others who swear their dogs wouldn't touch it or it resulted in diarrhea. Same with Dr. Tim's, Nature's Logic, Nature's Variety, etc. If you read through enough reviews, although many are positive there are always people who have tried the product without success.

It is nice that Dr. Tim (or someone masquerading on his behalf) responds on forums and to emails. Even so, it is a small company and he is still marketing his product. I have yet to see him recommend someone *not* buy the food, or that the kibble is not the best choice for a particular dog (other than recommending Pursuit over Momentum); and why would we expect him to? It's all business.

Now, so we don't stray too far off topic, I'm still debating good kibbles for GI issues. Glad to hear that Acana is working for you, Waldi.

Has anyone here used Dr. Tim's or Nature's Logic for their dogs, or know someone that has?


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## AgilityAce (Sep 13, 2013)

_Zero_ said:


> An interesting point and one I've always wondered about with dog food brands. Although companies list the ingredients in order of descending quantity and have protein and fat percentages, unless the company will specifically send you a list of how much of each ingredient goes into the kibble mix, it is very difficult to say how much of each type of meat or grain or veggie, etc. goes into the food.
> 
> Come to think of it, now, I wonder if some of these companies *would* actually send a quantitative ingredient list, e.g. 16% chicken, 4% chicken fat... I do wonder if we'd find that some dog foods with more meat sources listed actually have less meat overall than some with fewer meat ingredients. Who knows?
> 
> ...


Dr. Tim's?? Go to the website and find Team Momentum. That is enough for me. Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's

That is a partial list. Nature's Logic isn't in the same class as Dr. Tim's.

If your dog has GI issues then personally I would feed Pro Plan Select Sensitive Skin & Stomach or RC GSD. Don't mess with your dog.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Zero,
One of my trainers uses Nature's Logic and her dogs do well on it. The only thing I would caution is if your dog may be sensitive to yeast. I've listed the label ingredients below:
INGREDIENTS: Venison Meal, Beef Meal, Millet, Beef Fat, Pumpkin Seed, *Yeast Culture*, Spray Dried Beef Liver, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Dried Kelp, Cheese Powder, Spray Dried Porcine Plasma, Dried Tomato, Almonds, Dried Chicory Root, Dried Carrot, Dried Apple, Sardine Meal, Dried Pumpkin, Dried Apricot, Dried Blueberry, Dried Spinach, Dried Broccoli, Dried Cranberry, Parsley, Dried Artichoke, Rosemary, Mixed Tocopherols, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Bifidium Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Coagulans Fermentation Product, Dried Pineapple Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachtium Fermentation Extract: *Calculated Calorie Content:* *3,656 kcal/kg (403 kcal/cup); 1 Cup=3.8 oz (110g)

PRO PLAN SENSITIVE STOMACH: *Purina products are not GMO free. Ingredients: Salmon, brewers rice, canola meal, oat meal, *animal fat* (WHAT animal??? Determined by the FDA to possibly contain euthanized animals which could be from farms, shelters, or zoos) preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), *fish meal *(WHAT fish? preserved with ethoxyquin), salmon meal, barley, *brewers dried yeast* (some dogs' can be sensitive to this), *animal digest* (WHAT animal? Again, FDA determined it can contain euthanized animals), salt, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, sodium selenite, *menadione sodium bisulfite complex* (Which is K-3 a synthetic - source of Vitamin K activity)(Here is a list of negative effects of menadione on the body. Other names for K=3: menadione sodium bisulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite, menadione dimethylprimidinol sulfate, menadione dimethylprimidinol sulfite or menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite, often listed as "a source of vitamin K: 
causes cytotoxicity in liver cells, causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions, considerably weakens the immune system, possible mutagenic effects, damages the natural vitamin K cycle, has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in commercial food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested), causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses, disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis, is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K, builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives, causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes, causes allergic reactions and eczema. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione)

Royal Canin has started using BY-Products in their formulas. Their new "Anallerginc" formula contains Chicken FEATHERS (_hydrolyzed poultry by-products aggregate)_ as the 2nd main ingredient.http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/07/17/feather-meal.aspx

Just some things to consider before choosing. 
Moms


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Just some things to consider before choosing.
> Moms


Thanks for the info, Moms. I hadn't thought about the yeast but I suppose he could be sensitive to it. Is there any way to find out without just trying the food?

Pretty sure Pro Plan and RC aren't the brands for us.  The vet pushes RC every time we go in. Drives me nuts. Although I *have* heard that some dogs with GI issues actually do better on poorer quality foods? I wonder why that is?

Hum... decisions, decisions...


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

_Zero_ said:


> Thanks for the info, Moms. I hadn't thought about the yeast but I suppose he could be sensitive to it. Is there any way to find out without just trying the food?
> 
> Pretty sure Pro Plan and RC aren't the brands for us.  The vet pushes RC every time we go in. Drives me nuts. Although I *have* heard that some dogs with GI issues actually do better on poorer quality foods? I wonder why that is?
> 
> Hum... decisions, decisions...


Hi Zero!
If your dog has any type of itching, hot spots, gunk in his ears, or smelly/itchy ears, smells like "frito's" or an odd smell, eye drainage, or gut problems are just a few indications that he might have yeast issues. If a dog has these types of issues he/she may also want to consider a grain free food. With the Nature's Logic..... I think you'd just have to do the "try and see" method!  
Don't remember if we talked about it or not but have you considered The Honest Kitchen DEHYDRATED varieties? All Natural Dog Food - Dehydrated Pet Food | The Honest Kitchen
Recognized by the FDA to be 100% human grade food, processed in a 100% human grade facility. The only one of it's kind in the USA!
Let us know what you decide on!
Good luck with the hunt!
Moms


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## AgilityAce (Sep 13, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hi Zero!
> If your dog has any type of itching, hot spots, gunk in his ears, or smelly/itchy ears, smells like "frito's" or an odd smell, eye drainage, or gut problems are just a few indications that he might have yeast issues. If a dog has these types of issues he/she may also want to consider a grain free food. With the Nature's Logic..... I think you'd just have to do the "try and see" method!
> Don't remember if we talked about it or not but have you considered The Honest Kitchen DEHYDRATED varieties? All Natural Dog Food - Dehydrated Pet Food | The Honest Kitchen
> Recognized by the FDA to be 100% human grade food, processed in a 100% human grade facility. The only one of it's kind in the USA!
> ...


Nature's Logic is horrible food. Don't waste your money on that stuff.


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## AgilityAce (Sep 13, 2013)

_Zero_ said:


> Thanks for the info, Moms. I hadn't thought about the yeast but I suppose he could be sensitive to it. Is there any way to find out without just trying the food?
> 
> Pretty sure Pro Plan and RC aren't the brands for us.  The vet pushes RC every time we go in. Drives me nuts. Although I *have* heard that some dogs with GI issues actually do better on poorer quality foods? I wonder why that is?
> 
> Hum... decisions, decisions...


Perhaps the dogs do better on them because they are more appropriate for the dog. Remember that Royal Canin started as a company solely to address the digestive problems of German Shepherds. That is the truth.

People have become brainwashed by dog food marketing, untested foods and other people on forums that think their dog is a little person in a fur coat.

Not one dog has ever been hurt by Vitamin K3 but plenty have on K1 & K2, that is one of the reasons those aren't allowed in food.

Orijen has licorice root in it and that is a well known toxin. Do people ever bring that up? Never, why is that?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Zero,
I was just thinking about this horrible virus that has killed dogs in Ohio which stems from pigs.

The Nature's Logic contains "Spray Dried Porcine *(pig)* Plasma" in it. Since it is a virus that they have not pin-pointed exactly "how" it is being contracted, it may be something else to consider before deciding! I've been feeding raw for 19 years and one of my rotations is pork. Don't think I'll be serving up any of that for a while to my Fur Babies! 

Wishing you the best,
Moms


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## _Zero_ (Sep 1, 2013)

Well, I have a friend heading up to Anchorage for the weekend. I sent him with a list of foods I want to try and asked if he could make a stop at the feed store there and buy 5 lb bags of whatever he could find. Orijen, Acana, Nature's Variety Instinct, Earthborn Holistic, Go!, Dr. Tim's, Annamaet, and Nature's Logic all made it on the list. Not sure what he'll be able to find, but I figure if we get small bags of a couple varieties it won't put me out too much, Rigby can try them and I can see how he likes them/how he does on them and then pick the one we like best and order a larger bag online.

Here's hoping my friend actually comes back with something! He isn't the most reliable person in the world for favors...


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I didn't realise that by soaking dry kibble for long periods of time can cause bacteria to breed and multiply?

I currently soak their dry food for about 30 minutes then feed them straight away. One of my dogs is EPI and we have just gotten over SIBO so I do NOT want to enable bacteria to breed in his tummy.

Do you think soaking his food for 30 minutes and adding powdered pro biotic will be ok in relation to bacteria?

Also I have been research grain free dry kibble, unfortunately we can't get Orijen, Acana, Nature's Variety Instinct here in Australia but do get TOTW and Canidae. I have had my 2 GSDs on Canidae grain free pure sea for a couple of years and am very happy with it. We have just started feeding raw in the mornings then 12 hours later Canidae.

What is people opinion on Canidae grain free pure sea?


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

lalachka said:


> But are you saying that moisture does multiply bacteria so it just comes down to how long it's allowed to sit there?


It's not bacteria, but toxins released by fungi that feed on grains that are the problem. This has been documented in pet food left poorly sealed in moist conditions, and even in some fresh bags (google "aflatoxin recall"). This is a very real concern with pet food but it has nothing to do with adding water to dry food when it is fed. It is due to improper storage conditions.


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