# Low Protein Food?



## Sevastra (Mar 19, 2012)

Recently I had some contact with a trainer and he said possibly the food i am feeding my dog is too high in protein...I feed him Solid golds large breed wolf king...its 22 Percent protein


Any suggestions for food that is lower in protein, the reason he is on on that food is he literally couldn't eat anything else without getting diarrhea.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

22% protein is pretty low to begin with. I'm pretty sure your trainer doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No way 22% is nowhere near to high. For a puppy I think 25% or so is pretty good but higher when they are grown. Is he having problem on THAT food?


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## northgashepherds (Feb 23, 2013)

I'm not an expert on dog food, but I thought german shepherds need at least 30% of protein. But I may be wrong.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Personally I don't like puppies to be on high protein foods. Increased protein = increased growth rate, and I along with many vets agree that the slower a puppy grows (within healthy measures, of course), the better. My vet felt that the fact that he was still on puppy food was a contributing factor to Zeke getting panosteitis at 9 months of age. For people feeding kibble, I always recommend switching over to adult food around 5 months old. 

There has been numerous debate on this, especially in the veterinary world. Personally, I don't believe that juvenile animals need different diets IF we are feeding nutritionally correct diets to begin with. Human children eat the same (or SHOULD) balanced meals their parents eat. In the wild, wolf pups eat the same meat as the adults. Deer calves graze on the same grasses. Robin chicks eat the same worms and other insects. 

That being said, there are different recommended protein percentages for different dogs. The average, mildly active dog, it is recommended they get around 18% protein. However, sport or working dogs, high drive dogs, etc... it is recommended anywhere from 25-35% protein.

Just like in human athletes, you want a high protein diet to promote bone growth. But in the average, lazy Joe, high protein usually leads to fat. 

Of course, in the long run you are going to cause more harm than good with a diet LACKING in protein over a diet too HIGH in protein. So is 22% protein too high? No, technically your dog can easily handle it. Perhaps your dog is a little on the heavy side and your trainer was simply stating the "higher" protein content in your food could be a potential problem. Seeing as how the 22% is technically higher than the recommended 18% of the average adult dog diet, I wouldn't necessarily call the trainer an idiot.

If its the only food that works for your dog's GI tract, then stick to it.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

30%+ protein is pretty high in dog food standards. For a high drive, highly active dog, yes that would be fine and GREAT for building muscle and toning (Blue Buffalo Wilderness with 34% protein).

For the average dog, not super active, not super high energy, I would be afraid that you would easily have a very fat dog on 30%+ protein.

Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy food has 36% protein, and that thought just TERRIFIES me, lol.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

My 13 year old senior (shih tzu) is on BB Wilderness Senior. Even the senior dog food still has 30 percent protein, but I watch him closely to make sure he stays in tip top shape. He does great on it and has lots of energy. I also give him a joint supplement daily, but that's it.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

what do dog food companies refer to as protein? is that meat, or the percentage of protein within the meat? Because my poor puppy is eating about 90 percent protein and 10 bone. I could add a bunch of rice and potato, to the point that meat is first in the ingredient list but the other 10 main ingredients make the meat weigh 30% but why would I do that??? That 30 percent ratio is a joke. I even have a supplement which is 1000 times better than all the added vitamins in any dog food ive seen. Theirs reads as the cheapest possible form of vitamins and my pupsup looks like something gnc would sell to humans flaxseed based and filled with good stuff like probiotics. And I disagree that a high protein diet is the cause of human health issues. Its the stupid food pyramid thats the problem- carbs make people fat.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Feeding Puppies

It's the calcium that is the concern in terms of increased growth. 

However, some people feel that the high protein can result in things like downed pasterns/weak pasterns. 

But 22% is actually pretty low.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

volcano said:


> what do dog food companies refer to as protein? is that meat, or the percentage of protein within the meat? Because my poor puppy is eating about 90 percent protein and 10 bone. I could add a bunch of rice and potato, to the point that meat is first in the ingredient list but the other 10 main ingredients make the meat weigh 30% but why would I do that??? That 30 percent ratio is a joke. I even have a supplement which is 1000 times better than all the added vitamins in any dog food ive seen. Theirs reads as the cheapest possible form of vitamins and my pupsup looks like something gnc would sell to humans flaxseed based and filled with good stuff like probiotics. And I disagree that a high protein diet is the cause of human health issues. Its the stupid food pyramid thats the problem- carbs make people fat.


You're preaching to the choir - I call kibble in a bag, wouldn't feed dog food if you gave it to me. I'm just stating as far as kibble ratios/percentages go. And no, most protein sources in canine kibble is processed corn, NOT meat based protein


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## Sevastra (Mar 19, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> Personally I don't like puppies to be on high protein foods. Increased protein = increased growth rate, and I along with many vets agree that the slower a puppy grows (within healthy measures, of course), the better. My vet felt that the fact that he was still on puppy food was a contributing factor to Zeke getting panosteitis at 9 months of age. For people feeding kibble, I always recommend switching over to adult food around 5 months old.
> 
> There has been numerous debate on this, especially in the veterinary world. Personally, I don't believe that juvenile animals need different diets IF we are feeding nutritionally correct diets to begin with. Human children eat the same (or SHOULD) balanced meals their parents eat. In the wild, wolf pups eat the same meat as the adults. Deer calves graze on the same grasses. Robin chicks eat the same worms and other insects.
> 
> ...



Kaiser is at a good weight, a lot of muscle to him etc. The trainer was talking about his excess energy maybe to lessen that a little ( dealing with aggression). He does exercise, though i am going to attempt to put him on the treadmill as well...*.ANY advice on doing so, links to how to videos would be great if anyone knows of any*. He is almost 15 months old now. I feed him 3 cups in the morning and 3 cups for dinner. I know some of the solid gold products are 28% i think the product i am using is the lowest protein. I have researched and talked to the company, and just about all of them are 22 and over.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Yeah.. your trainer is misinformed about nutrition.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

From reading back, you certainly have plenty of other problems that I don't think you can pin on food else all the other dogs eating similar and more typically higher protein would be the same. I have seen GSDs with no issues eating anywhere between 21% and 40% protein on dry foods.

I definitely think the aggression issues are at a point where you need (and are getting) professional help.


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## Sevastra (Mar 19, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> From reading back, you certainly have plenty of other problems that I don't think you can pin on food else all the other dogs eating similar and more typically higher protein would be the same. I have seen GSDs with no issues eating anywhere between 21% and 40% protein on dry foods.
> 
> I definitely think the aggression issues are at a point where you need (and are getting) professional help.



No, i completely agree I was just looking into it if it held any value at all, at this point every little bit helps.


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## northgashepherds (Feb 23, 2013)

My dogs work a lot, so I try to keep their protein percentage higher (around 30%). If your dog is medium to low drive 20 to 25% of protein should be good.


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## SS-GSD (Dec 10, 2012)

volcano said:


> what do dog food companies refer to as protein? is that meat, or the percentage of protein within the meat? Because my poor puppy is eating about 90 percent protein and 10 bone. I could add a bunch of rice and potato, to the point that meat is first in the ingredient list but the other 10 main ingredients make the meat weigh 30% but why would I do that??? That 30 percent ratio is a joke. I even have a supplement which is 1000 times better than all the added vitamins in any dog food ive seen. Theirs reads as the cheapest possible form of vitamins and my pupsup looks like something gnc would sell to humans flaxseed based and filled with good stuff like probiotics. And I disagree that a high protein diet is the cause of human health issues. Its the stupid food pyramid thats the problem- carbs make people fat.


Percentages and grams are NOT the same thing JFTR. Your dog may be eating 90% MEAT, but there is no way it's eating 90% PROTEIN. For example, 1lb of 80/20 boneless ground beef has 122 GRAMS of protein out of roughly 453.5 GRAMS of meat. Which means about 27% of the actual food you're feeding is protein, even though there is well over 100 grams of protein in it. You can double the amount to 2lb and it's still 27% protein. Triple it to 3lb, again, you're still feeding 27% protein based on it's weight. Other meat sources will follow a similar suite. You're probably feeding well over 90 GRAMS of protein to your dog each day, but there is no way you're feeding 90 percent protein even if all you fed was straight meat.​


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

What makes people fat aren't carbs... it's people eating more calories than they expend. Period. 

It also depends on the dog food as to where the protein is coming from. Your better dog foods are NOT getting most of their protein percentages from corn. They don't even contain it. It gets a little confusing when you talk about switching from puppy food to adult food because the puppy food can cause certain issues to arise. The puppy food I plan to feed (Innova LBP) is 24 percent (guaranteed) to 26.68 percent. The adult food I feed (senior food actually) is 30 percent .. so the puppy food is actually lower in protein. What adult foods are people switching to that are so low in protein?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Galathiel said:


> What makes people fat aren't carbs... it's people eating more calories than they expend. Period.
> 
> It also depends on the dog food as to where the protein is coming from. Your better dog foods are NOT getting most of their protein percentages from corn. They don't even contain it. It gets a little confusing when you talk about switching from puppy food to adult food because the puppy food can cause certain issues to arise. The puppy food I plan to feed (Innova LBP) is 24 percent (guaranteed) to 26.68 percent. The adult food I feed (senior food actually) is 30 percent .. so the puppy food is actually lower in protein. What adult foods are people switching to that are so low in protein?


Most people DON'T feed the better dog foods though. Most people feed Beneful, Iams, Purina, Science Diet, Royal Canin, etc... The most common source of protein in dog food is processed corn.

Science Diet Large Breed is 19% protein.
Iams Natural Adult Lamb is 22% protein.
Kibbles 'n Bits is 19% protein.
Beneful is one of the higher "common" dog foods I can find, at 25% protein.
Royal Canin's German Shepherd formula is 24% protein 
Alpo is 20% protein

If everyone fed high quality dog foods, then maybe veterinarians would see half the problems they do


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

I really get tired of reading about the issue of protein being to high. This is just OLD SCHOOL and comes from the fact that in the OLD days, the majority of protein came from plant, grain or vegetables. MEAT PROTEIN IS FANTASTIC FOR DOGS no matter how high. When you look at a dog food ingredient list and their is a lot of meat ingredients, then the protein most likely comes from meat and protein #'s well be high. It is impossible to have low protein #'s and a lot of meat and vise verse.

The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?

Dog Food Protein | Frequently Asked Questions


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I really get tired of reading about the issue of protein being to high. This is just OLD SCHOOL and comes from the fact that in the OLD days, the majority of protein came from plant, grain or vegetables. MEAT PROTEIN IS FANTASTIC FOR DOGS no matter how high. When you look at a dog food ingredient list and their is a lot of meat ingredients, then the protein most likely comes from meat and protein #'s well be high. It is impossible to have low protein #'s and a lot of meat and vise verse.
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?
> 
> Dog Food Protein | Frequently Asked Questions


You're right - meat protein MUCH better. And much higher. I feed a raw meat diet, guess what protein would be in that?

Fact of the matter is, meat based protein sources are NOT the norm in dog food. Crappy dog foods are not "old" school, they are the most pushed dog foods out there! Vets HATE "grain free" diets, they feel they are BAD for dogs (We actually just had a meeting at my clinic with a science diet rep to teach us about a new low fat prescription diet - which turned into a 10 minute rant about "grain free" diets and all these "fad" diets that have no basis behind them and how corn is the BEST source of protein in dog foods and is not a filler).

*gag* - reminds me yet again why I don't listen to nutritional advice from veterinarians. It's what they are taught. When nutrition education is sponsored and provided by the leading dog food manufacturer, you're going to run into problems.

You can't use the minority as an example for a broad subject - because it just doesn't fit the majority, even though it should.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

Original poster- the high protein being bad thing is considered old science/nutrition to most. I have never heard a vet, study, trainer suggest that too much protein would cause behavior problems. 

Six cups of food a day sounds like a LOT. The dog food I feed is 36% protein (by dry matter) but I only feed about 3 cups/day.

I think Solid Gold is a good food and if your dog is tolerating it well (diarrhea that you mentioned-wise) I would keep feeding it. For the treadmill- sounds like a good idea and if you search the forum you can probably find some good advice. For the moment I would stop doing research on food protein levels and just focus on your training issues.

If your issues are more than what your trainer is experienced with you might want to seek out a veterinary behaviorist.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> ... how corn is the BEST source of protein in dog foods and is not a filler)...


I hate that vets would even say that or suggest that corn is even a good source of protein in dogs. I eat vegetarian very often, and corn simply is not a complete source of protein. If you are vegetarian you have to combine corn with beans or certain other protein sources to get the right mix of amino acids. IT is just crazy to me that people try to say corn is good for dogs.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

spidermilk said:


> I hate that vets would even say that or suggest that corn is even a good source of protein in dogs. I eat vegetarian very often, and corn simply is not a complete source of protein. If you are vegetarian you have to combine corn with beans or certain other protein sources to get the right mix of amino acids. IT is just crazy to me that people try to say corn is good for dogs.



Yes, their claim is it obviously needs to be cooked/ground/processed to extract the protein, but once it's extracted it's the best form of protein because it's so high in protein.

In my mind, if you have to do that much change to a food source to even make it edible, then it is NOT good nor natural! :crazy:

As far as the OP, I agree if the food is working for them, ESPECIALLY if the dog has had previous GI upset in the past, then don't change it. If the dog is overweight, feed less. If there are behavioral issues (I must of missed that part in the thread?) then don't look at the food source, look at the training and underlying temperament of the dog. 

If a trainer is suggesting that *high* protein in a food is causing aggression, then I think it is time to start looking for a new trainer.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The other issues is that unless it is organic (and even then because of cross contamination) all corn is genetically modified. Typically sprayed with roundup, and has little testing on possible health impacts. Some very negative research coming out of small places in Europe but who is going to fund a *real* study over here if they don't have to?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Fortunately, the OP is feeding Solid Gold Wolf King, as stated in the first post, so all this talk about corn is really beside the point. 
Solid Gold Health Products for Pets - Products


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## Sevastra (Mar 19, 2012)

spidermilk said:


> Original poster- the high protein being bad thing is considered old science/nutrition to most. I have never heard a vet, study, trainer suggest that too much protein would cause behavior problems.
> 
> Six cups of food a day sounds like a LOT. The dog food I feed is 36% protein (by dry matter) but I only feed about 3 cups/day.
> 
> ...



Yea, i think you're right I have abandoned the whole protein levels idea. yea, he gets 3 cups in the morning and 3 cups at night...hes not over weight by any stretch of the word he's very large chested and full of muscle...I was giving him 4 3/4 cups a day but he still seemed hunger...I don't think he would fair well with only 3 cups a day.

On the bag i think it says anywhere from 4 1/5 to 5 1/2 cups If he seems to be packing on the weight i will lower his in take a bit.

thanks for the feedback everyone!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

The only reason I've heard for feeding low protein food is if a pup has weak pasterns. Other than that, I don't see a reason to feed lower than 22%, which is on the lower side as it is.


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## Linda1270 (Sep 7, 2012)

I feed my 6 month old GSD Wolf King Large Breed Puppy by Solid Gold and she does very well on it and likes the taste, however, lately she does seem to be getting a little bored with it, she's been leaving some in her dish in the mornings. I'm hoping I don't have to change this food, both her vet and her trainer think it's a very good food.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

CORN,,,Did you know that there is over 17 different kinds grown in the USA... Did you know that the corn in dog food IS NOT the same as what you buy in the grocery store.... Did you know that the corn in dog food is a lower grade than feed grade... Did you know they add the shuckings and top tussles to dog food corn... Did you realize a dogs digestive track is only 2/3's the length of humans. If humans have a hard time digesting corn whats makes you think dogs can digest corn??

How the Dog Digestive System Works - VetInfo

https://www.google.com/search?q=dog...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Anubis_Star said:


> You're right - meat protein MUCH better. And much higher. I feed a raw meat diet, guess what protein would be in that?
> 
> Fact of the matter is, meat based protein sources are NOT the norm in dog food. Crappy dog foods are not "old" school, they are the most pushed dog foods out there! Vets HATE "grain free" diets, they feel they are BAD for dogs (We actually just had a meeting at my clinic with a science diet rep to teach us about a new low fat prescription diet - which turned into a 10 minute rant about "grain free" diets and all these "fad" diets that have no basis behind them and how corn is the BEST source of protein in dog foods and is not a filler).
> 
> ...


Well, I will and would argue that "" Crappy dog foods are not "old" school, they are the most"",, *that they are*. Look at Purnia, one of the oldest dog foods out there and there is more meat in it today than 30 years ago. AND IT HAS VERY LITTLE MEAT IN IT TODAY.

My bet raw feeders are feeding about 35-40 percent protein and really don't realize it. But it is very good for their dogs because it s good protein. It really depends on how much meat you are feeding and I am sure some are much higher.

""Fact of the matter is, meat based protein sources are NOT the norm in dog food."" Depends, dog foods like Orijen and Horizon Legacy certainly do.(and others). Orijen is just flying off the shelves up here in my area of Washington State. As I stated, your crappy dog foods like those sold in grocery stores have bad protein, because they contain protein from non meat sources.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

volcano said:


> what do dog food companies refer to as protein? is that meat, or the percentage of protein within the meat? Because my poor puppy is eating about 90 percent protein and 10 bone. I could add a bunch of rice and potato, to the point that meat is first in the ingredient list but the other 10 main ingredients make the meat weigh 30% but why would I do that??? That 30 percent ratio is a joke. I even have a supplement which is 1000 times better than all the added vitamins in any dog food ive seen. Theirs reads as the cheapest possible form of vitamins and my pupsup looks like something gnc would sell to humans flaxseed based and filled with good stuff like probiotics. And I disagree that a high protein diet is the cause of human health issues. Its the stupid food pyramid thats the problem- carbs make people fat.


Protein percentage is what percentage of protein the food has, not what percentage of the diet is meat. Those are 2 completely different things. Raw diets actually tend to have lower protein percentage than many kibbles, such as grain free kibbles. Part of this is due to the high moisture content in meat. 

Here are some protein percentages of various meats: List of foods by protein content - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## GSD1231 (Apr 4, 2013)

I have my GSD puppy (3 months old) on California Natural Grain Free Venison and which is 21.5% protein, and he does wonderfully on it... Anything above 24-25% he has diarrhea. I am currently in the market for something a little better for him though, as I continue to hear California Natural is not the great a brand anymore... There are some other California Natural brands which are lower in protein than that.. I also hear going Grain-free helps a lot with the loose stool as well. Anything with grain gives my boy the runs .


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

You can always feed dry dog food and supplement with a raw meat source. I do not have a GSD YET but am in the process of getting one.....I feed my Siberian Huskies and Malamutes a dry food but supplement chicken and fish into their diet. You would need to keep their weight in check and obviously regulate but it works very well. I run my dogs on a sled in the winter and salmon and chicken mixed with dry food is what they get. I think if a GSD is active enough that this can be very effective. I believe activity level should drive your food choice and the protein level in said food. Just "food" for thought...


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Lin said:


> Raw diets actually tend to have lower protein percentage than many kibbles, such as grain free kibbles. Part of this is due to the high moisture content in meat. [/url]


If you net out the water from both raw meat and kibble which is the proper way to calculate a comparison, the comparable protein for raw meat is 60 to 65%. The highest protein kibble Evo typically only has protein in the lower 40%s. Orijen's protein % has gone down unfortunately to the high 30%s (a few years ago it was over 40). So a grain free kibble with protein only in the 20%s range has obviously very little meat. A grain kibble even less.

I have always had high metabolism high drive working line GSDs and even when they are not working they burn energy (like a high strung person is usually slender). They have been fed raw or high protein (30% to 40%+) grain free and do well on both. Even though I am a raw feeding advocate, I honestly have not seen any observable difference in health between 100% correct raw diet and very high protein grain free.


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