# My dog attacked/bit my kids. I'm out of options..



## ela (Aug 6, 2015)

I am not sure where to post this so admin please feel free to move it to a different forum.

We have a 2 yo GSD female we got from a breeder. She wasn't fixed and he asked if we would consider breeding her at one point for him. We said maybe. A year later he did the X-ray of hips and she was so aggressive at the vet - they had to put her to sleep for the X-ray - that he was telling me that we need to do something about it. I wasn't too crazy about the breeding idea.

Anyway.. I have two young teenage girls and one is very attached to the dog- sleeps with Dash, hugs her etc.
Overall the dog is very sensitive even a bit anxious. But a good dog overall friendly with people (not so much with other dots though)
She is also super freaked out and aggressive when we try to cut her nails. She won't let us do it and she almost bit us a few months ago when we tried.

A month ago or so my kid were having a little disagreement outside and the dog attacked my other girl with bites through the skin. I had to pull her off her. I was shocked and wasn't sure what to do. 

2 wks later the dog was asleep and my daughter went up to her and started hugging her and touched her paws. The dog attacked her with bites through the skin all over her body.

Then 4 days later we were leaving the house and the dog was just chilling by the entrance. When the same daughter was just passing the dog (totally benign no hint of interest in the dog) Dash just attacked her with multiple through the skin bites.

I am caught between many professionals and my family. All trainers and the vet agree that she should not be with us anymore, she became a bully, unpredictable behaviors etc. I am going insane having her still around as my daughter still hugs her and is in denial.

Vets urge me to euthanize.
Trainers think that she MAY be ok with different alpha and boundaries but think it may be a DNA/breeding flow.
My family thinks that a family member should take her. He however lives in a small apartment and works 10 hrs/day. And it would be too close to our family which all trainers said is important to avoid. 
Breeder doesn't want her and blamed it all on me and said how disappointed he is as he was counting to breed her etc. only female in that litter etc. Made me feel like xxxx. 

My other family members think that I'm a monster even considering euthanasia but I can't imagine if she attacks again. 

I am at my wits end. Very stressed out and feel very much alone in this 
.

My kids come first. 1 nite/attack 
is a lot but 3???

Thank you for reading
Ela


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I don't know what to tell you other than do what you think is right. Don't make a decision based on emotion. If it were a dog that I raised and it attacked a child of mine once let alone three times I would euthanize.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Buy a muzzle for that dog today! That's the first step until you decide what else to do. Without more background it's impossible to say why this dog is acting the way it is. But I agree with others who've said you need to remove the dog from your household. And for all the reasons mentioned, I agree it would not be good to rehome this dog with a family member. At the very least the dog will need a person well versed in dealing with GSD aggression issues. And whoever gets the dog must know all the details! Sorry you and your family have had to go through this, it's difficult to say the least. But don't put it off because someone WILL get hurt.


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Until you figure out what to do, I would tell your daughter who is hugging the dog, to stop completely. Some dogs handle being hugged ok, while others do not. 
With multiple attacks that involved multiple through-the-skin bites, I would be considering euthanasia.
JMO.


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## ela (Aug 6, 2015)

Thank you all. I just put a muzzle on her. She is so good 99% of the time that it's heartbreaking...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Well I am VERY protective of children and would not hesitate to put a dog that viciously attacked a child down, but we cannot know that that is the case here given what we've been told. So, I would not jump on that option yet! Have a professional evaluate the dog first!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

ela said:


> Thank you all. I just put a muzzle on her. She is so good 99% of the time that it's heartbreaking...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well if she's a good dog 99% of the time then rehome her to an experienced gsd person. Preferably with no kids. Funny how the breeder wants nothing to do with her. Hopefully this is the last dog you get off this breeder.


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

ela said:


> Thank you all. I just put a muzzle on her. She is so good 99% of the time that it's heartbreaking...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know it's heartbreaking...they are, overall, such an awesome breed!

I think that any of us telling you to consider euthanasia certainly are not doing so lightly, considering the love we have for Shepherds. 

Has anything in your home changed recently or coincide with the change in behavior?
I think muzzling in the meantime, no hugging and avoiding situations that are exciting (arguments/fights) could calm things considerably, until you figure out how to handle it.
I'm sorry-it's awful to be caught between a much beloved pet and your kids. Keeping the kids safe is paramount though...


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Have you had her to the vet for a full check up? Check her thyroid? Personally, she wouldn't be in my house after the second bite, possibly not after the first bite. Kids come first. As others who have said, I would look for someone who has experience with GSDs with aggressive problems and who is willing to work with her. I'm glad you were able to get her to handle a muzzle. Your daughter needs to understand both of your girls need to leave the dog alone.


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## ela (Aug 6, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> Well if she's a good dog 99% of the time then rehome her to an experienced gsd person. Preferably with no kids. Funny how the breeder wants nothing to do with her. Hopefully this is the last dog you get off this breeder.




No one seems to know anyone who would take her. The breeder mentioned someone he would contact but I emailed him twice and he is not responding. Totally blowing me off. Almost everyone said that it would be almost impossible to find anyone who would take a dog that attacked with bites a few times...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Even if you found the right trainer, and this is by no means a certainty by itself, there will be no easy solutions to an issue like this. It will involve a good chunk of management to keep the dog from hurting the girls. Muzzle, crate, high level corrections when you see the dog show any signs of aggression towards the kids. There is no way to work this issue directly if it is only happening towards children without risking a kid. Most trainers don't have direct access to children they are willing to risk. This is why behavior modification for something like this is impractical, unsafe, but not impossible. If it was my dog with my kids I don't have much of a doubt I'd be able to make it work, but I'm me. 

Your options are essentially this. 

1. Rehome a dog with bite history and hope it goes somewhere it won't be an issue (hard to do if you were honest about it)
2. Put the dog down
3. Manage the dog. Muzzle when its out around your kids while you are there to supervise and then crated when you can't
4. Try to go to a trainer to see if you can work the issues directly and then more than likely option 3 will still be a big part of your final solution. High level corrections for aggression will likely end up part of the solution as well and if it isn't you went to the wrong trainers.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

ela said:


> Thank you all. I just put a muzzle on her. She is so good 99% of the time that it's heartbreaking...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't understand why this dog is still in your home! I would board her at a safe facility until you decide the plan of action. What if, at one time, she is 1% "not good"? She has already punctured the skin several times. What else does she need to do to wake you up?
I would do everything to prevent breeding her. What does her breeder say, since (s)he has shown interest in this? What is in the contract? By the way, spaying will not cure this level of aggression.
There have been a few situations which you described that have contributed to this misery but most sound dogs handle clumsy humans well. This dog is a liability. If you seek medical help, docs have to report this to animal control.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Whats the upside Ela? What makes it worth living with a dog like this for you? Some people can do fine with managing and controlling every thing, the muzzling or kenneling, what ever works. Is it worth it for you to live with the risk? The nails are one thing, randomly attacking your daughter for walking by? Think hard about it. I'm not trying to be too harsh, and I'm sure you know how serious it is, but since my only advice would be keep her away from your daughters, that's why I'm asking if its worth it.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

ela said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > Well if she's a good dog 99% of the time then rehome her to an experienced gsd person. Preferably with no kids. Funny how the breeder wants nothing to do with her. Hopefully this is the last dog you get off this breeder.
> ...


Where are you located. Maybe someone on here knows of someone in your area.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

question, maybe I"m missing it,,has the dog attacked the SAME daughter each time? Is that daughter the one doing the hugging etc? 

I agree with having a stern talking to the daughter who is 'hugging'the dog,,does she want the dog gone? Cause it will happen if she continues to do it. or she may be end up getting her face ripped off...the dog is obviously uncomfortable with that..No excuses for the dog biting 3 times,,but the behavior by your daughter may be making things worse? 

It's hard to say 'what' to do, since you say the dog 99% of the time she's good..and we can't analyze this over the net..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Where are you located??? It's not like there are "no trainers" available that deal with dogs and kids?? You just have to know where to look. 

That said it, is theoretically possible to "rehome" the dog into a "No Kids" household ... but the fact of the matter is, that would best have been done "before" the dog started to chomp down on kidlets! It's a big task at this point but "rehoming could still be done" with the "Right Rescue."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If this is what I am reading: 

The one daughter is attached to the dog, hugs and is ok with it? 
The other daughter has been attacked several times by the dog, all over her body? Does she also hug the dog and play with its paws. 

The dog is aggressive at the vet and when it needs its toenails clipped? 

I don't believe in re-homing a dog that bites kids. Sorry. If you could find someone that will take the dog, can you trust that person to disclose everything if that person ever rehomes the dog? 

If the dog kills someone's child, would you be able to live with that, knowing what you know about this dog? 

I think that when we take responsibility for a critter, if the dog becomes a danger to the family, we have ro do the responsible thing with the dog. Maybe with a lot of experience, you could personally work with the dog and keep everyone safe. But let's face it, if this dog was with Bailiff, it wouldn't have gotten to this point. Something would have been done differently long ago, if the whole thing isn't totally genetic. So if it is something that can be worked out of the dog, it would have never gotten to this point. 

There are many dogs put down each day just because there is not space in the shelter. Is it right to rehome a dog that might do serious damage to another child? 

I think you know what you should do, but it is really hard and disturbing, especially since one of your kids ins attached to the dog. Living 24/7 with a muzzle is not an answer. 

If your dog had a brain tumor and was not able to walk and was incontinent, possibly in pain, you would make an appointment and have them euthanize your dog. If your dog has bitten your child multiple times on multiple occasions, requiring medical attention, than I think it has a disease that makes it unsafe to live in a family situation. if it is that unstable, unpredictable, fear-aggressive, it isn't in a good place at all. Euthanasia is not a punishment. It is putting a critter out of its misery. Some dogs are so fearful that life for them is not enjoyable. 

I am sorry you are going through this. Kids do come first. . If I understand what you wrote, then I would put the dog down.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww well potential "Dust Up" notwithstanding ... the fact of the matter is, that right not now this dog, in this household, with this owner, with they are currently doing?? Is just not the right situation, no doubt!

Is the current situation "solvable" for this owner ... I don't know??? But Baillif feels ... it's not a problem and I know a particular trainer that deals with "dogs and kids " all the time.  

So there is that ... as for me well ... I don't have kids. So there is that, rehoming the dog to a kidless home seems a viable option to me?? But the fact of the matter is the dog has already bitten kids??? So the pool of potential adoptees is gonna pretty small?? Most likely, there are not a lot of potential ... "I don't give a crap what the dog's history" is owners out there because under my watch ... it's not a problem! 

The OP has to do what they need to do ... but there are "potential solution" available ... just saying.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

There is lots of good advice above. I think everyone is trying to save this dog's life. So add me to that list.

Now, if I read correctly this dog is an adult dog. A full mouth chomp by an adult GSD is no laughing matter. You say more than once on young kids twelve, thirteen years old or there about? I would think these kids would be absolutely terrified of this dog yet they are still hugging him? Next I'm surprised if you were in the ER that the dog was not impounded at least temporarily. A dog bite here will get the cops involved the first time. The second time may be the end of the dog or a court appearance.

My Aussie is an extremely high drive dog not often seen. Often when playing she will accidently nip me. Not a chomp but a pinch that bleeds. She has never purposely bit me but I get nips occasionally. I stop the exercise immediately and go through a no bite routine and a calming exercise. It's something I've worked out just for this dog. Later she will lay next to me and gently lick the nips like she is sorry. 

I'm not trying to minimize your case. From your posts it sounds very serious so I'll head there.

I don't think you can handle correcting this yourself. You simply don't have the experience or traning. Not being mean or judgmental, just factual. With that I'd recommend rehoming this dog immediately before someone gets really hurt. Maybe a farm person or country dweller. 
If you keep the dog you are going to need a pro that really knows how to handle this. It's not going to be easy nor done quickly,nor cheaply.
He is going to have to teach you how to maintain the dog after he is done. He will have to come back periodically to make sure the dog has stabilized.

I'd get a good muzzle like NOW. Fed Ex over night. Try Ray Allen protection equipment or Leerburg protection equipment. Top quality leather. Not cheap. Yes, I use a prong, never harshly, just a twitch or rattle of the chain. It's a marker that I'm going to ask her to do things.

For some reason many people seem to think GSDs always need harsh corrections. Prong collars get yanked like the priest ringing the church bell. E collars are turned up so they crackle like the lightening of Hades. All this does is turn the dog angry towards you and worsens the situation.
I would not recommend you enter into this philosophy. As noted above, not all dogs like being hugged. Never hug this dog. Not ever again. You note problems trimming claws. I saw a neat solution for this recently. A scratch board was made with 80 grit sandpaper glued to it. A hidden trap door was put in the middle. The owner put treats or peanut butter in the pocket and had the dog try to get it by scratching. It wears the claws down naturally and toughens the pads. You reward the dog by giving him the treat. Another one was constructed on the door. The dog was encouraged to stand up and scratch at it to go out side.

So stop fighting the dog over trimming claws. He is viewing this as hurting him and you lose his trust or bond. My dog doesn't mind me touching or massaging her feet but hates the clippers. So instead of forcing the issue I simply take her to the vet. She loves going to the vet as she gets high value treats from me and pets and sweet talk from the vets. She doesn't like their treats. About the only thing she won't eat. They have her jump up on the table and gentle as can be they trim her claws. So any adversity is from the vet not me. They give me a discount as we come in every couple months for this or some other minor treatment so we both win. 

As far as your breeder goes, well, I'd be pretty upset. Most good breeders will take the dog back and make an adjustment. I would not ever take another dog from them no matter what adjustment is made. If they want to give you another dog, I'd walk away., leave the adjustment and write it off to experience. I could get on my "phantom" soap box about breeders but that for another day.

I really hope you can get some pro help or re-home your dog. It's too bad this has happened but you must protect the kids.

Byron


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## ela (Aug 6, 2015)

JakodaCD OA said:


> question, maybe I"m missing it,,has the dog attacked the SAME daughter each time? Is that daughter the one doing the hugging etc?
> 
> I agree with having a stern talking to the daughter who is 'hugging'the dog,,does she want the dog gone? Cause it will happen if she continues to do it. or she may be end up getting her face ripped off...the dog is obviously uncomfortable with that..No excuses for the dog biting 3 times,,but the behavior by your daughter may be making things worse?
> 
> It's hard to say 'what' to do, since you say the dog 99% of the time she's good..and we can't analyze this over the net..




Once one daughter "defending" the other and twice the other daughter 


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh well I'll also add that this dgo copping and "attitude" about the nails and at the vet?? While yeah a "PIA" that it may be is not uncommon?? While to my surprise ... it's not an issue I had with my guy ... but vet and nail issues, is not uncommon ... it depends on the dog, the owner and the vet.


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## ela (Aug 6, 2015)

I am located in Massachusetts. 


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ela said:


> I am located in Massachusetts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Massachusetts??? Baby states ... but close enough ... to RI.  

The trainer I referenced would be Jeff Gellman at "SolidK9Training" ... this guy. :
Solid K9 Training aggressive dog rehab, dog anxiety - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

And he shows his work.:





If there is another trainer, out there that deals with dogs and kids and uses ... his kids for rehab and shows their work ... I have not found them??? 

I'd contact him or easier still ... this year he is doing free 15 minute Skype sessions ... see the left hand side.:
https://www.facebook.com/Solid-K9-Training-140229622668254/

I'm pretty sure I know well 90 percent of what he would say ... but I don't have kids! Getting my guy not to bite the crap out of "random" toddler appearances ... was good enough for me ... never saw that crap coming but my dog made good choices ... another story.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> Massachusetts??? Baby states ... but close enough ... to RI.
> 
> The trainer I referenced would be Jeff Gellman at "SolidK9Training" ... this guy. :
> Solid K9 Training aggressive dog rehab, dog anxiety - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training
> ...


I've actually got a neighbor (all the way here in Oklahoma) that used Jeff with their Rottie that had bitten them several times and was "aggressive" (reactive) in general. It's been about 2 years since they used him and the dog has had no further issues. He's a calm, well mannered family dog now. They've even had a baby since then, no issues at all with the kiddo. We've used some of his material and videos with Minka (unrelated to aggression, just general training) and his methods get results. Definitely check him out if you can't rehome her. 99% of the time there is NO need to euthanize "aggressive" dogs. There's a fix, and it's usually a pretty simple one for qualified trainers. It's generally just vets (because they aren't trainers or behaviorists) or "pure positive" type folks that recommend euthanasia because their methods in general don't work, let alone on problem dogs.

If you go that way though make sure you're ok with balanced training. So many people want help but have this modern bull**** drilled into their heads about "you can never say no to a dog or you're abusing them!". He will not take clients or advise people who prefer to barter and beg their dog for behaviors and refuse to properly train them. Again, you can't even properly train a calm dog that way let alone a dog that's already exhibiting issues.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I really think you should rehome the dog. Every German Shepherd does NOT fit with every home. I would strongly encourage you to rehome her with an experienced German Shepherd owner, or dog training owner. Doesn't sound like she needs to be euthanized, because I have seen far worse dogs when removed and placed in experienced homes do very well. Your home is not good fit for many reasons.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

And your state or city?


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Op, you indicated in your first post that many professionals and many trainers have given you advice that the dog needs to be out of your home. My question is: why are you questioning that advice? I can understand questioning the vets advice for euthanasia. But if you have sought out trainers for this issue, what is your hesitancy? This is an honest question and not geared towards pressuring you, but I would think that due to your description and what this dog has done to your children, as hard as it is to give him up, that parental instinct should be kicking in high gear.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> And your state or city?


Baby state ... Massachusetts.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Anyway.. I have two young teenage girls and one is very attached to the dog- sleeps with Dash, hugs her etc."

Get this dog out of that bedroom and off that bed.

No more babying and hugging. 

Quote "2 wks later the dog was asleep and my daughter went up to her and started hugging her and touched her paws. "

The consequences were that this startled and bit her all over her body.

BUT this was AFTER one of the children had been attacked . The dog needed to be pulled off -- she was in a different zone. 

What does it take to learn to be a bit cautious .

Later this dog again attacked the same child without any provocation .

Was this child the "hugger" who sleeps with the dog .

Was this the child that the dog targeted when the dog became out of control aggressive when stressed by conflict ?

quote , "dog is very sensitive even a bit anxious" 

For this very reason this dog should NEVER be bred.
If the breeder does then the motive is $$$$.

When you bought the dog how was it promoted ? Was this sensitive and anxious aspect ever mentioned, or was the dog promoted as being solid and stable ?
What "home-like" experience did the dog have , what big world socialized experience did the dog have ?
If the dog had none , neither , then there was no way the "breeder" could give any feed-back to that because he never tested or exposed the dog to situations to make any evaluation.

All homes have crazy moments . All of them. 
That is why I go into lecture mode when someone contacts me for "just" a pet . That "just a pet" should have the very best of temperament and coping skills because of the emotionally loaded , hectic , spontaneous , events of normal life --- without the benefits of normal people wanting to enjoy a dog as a companion -- without being dog-savvy -- doing things with the best of intentions .

quote , "Breeder doesn't want her"
Of course he doesn't . Probably knew ---- 

About a year ago we had a forum member who unknowingly took in a GSD with a known bite-history that was NOT
made apparent to him. 
The dog virtually immediately bit a family member , without provocation , and seriously.

This breeder had many other problems with health and temperament -- other forum members with personal experience started to network.

As far as I know there is a law suit - (or pending action) .


You can't manage the dog .

The dog and the children should never have contact with each other again.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It is heartbreaking to have to rehome a dog especially when kids are involved. So important to find the right match as if not such a troubling experience for all involved. At the same time it is not fair to your kids ,you, or the dog to continue to put the dog in this situation-where she can harm your kids. Kids and teenagers do not read a dogs body language well, so this dog is clearly not the dog for them as the dog has proven her disdain for such an act. There has been no precautions set by you as carmspack pointed out. The family pet as mentioned- is to me one of the most important jobs and the dog must be able to be stable and clear headed amongst any family chaos. The dog has proven she will react aggressively if she feels uncomfortable in the slightest. I do think this dog can be rehomed given the right situation where there are no kids and the owner is aware of the dogs history and experienced enough. Wish you the best and that you find the right dog for your family.


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## ela (Aug 6, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> I really think you should rehome the dog. Every German Shepherd does NOT fit with every home. I would strongly encourage you to rehome her with an experienced German Shepherd owner, or dog training owner. Doesn't sound like she needs to be euthanized, because I have seen far worse dogs when removed and placed in experienced homes do very well. Your home is not good fit for many reasons.




I don't know how to find another home to her.... she needs someone with GSD experience...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OP, have you had the dog evaluated by a decent trainer? Maybe the trainer can assist you in finding a new home for the dog. I know of two trainers in MA I could suggest if you need someone. One of them has a lot of connections in GSD rescue, although I don't know if she is willing to be involved with something like this due to liability issues. The only good GSD rescue I know if won't take the dog due to the history


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog should not be re-homed. There are not enough experienced GSD homes to save every dog with temperament problems so bad that they bite children of the owner. 

The dog bit the OP's kids SEVERAL times. THAT is not a normal dog. 

If a kid gets a little tooth while giving a high value treat to the dog or playing tug with the dog, ok. That isn't dangerous. It is the product of living in the world. If you play football, you might sprain your knee. We can live with that. 

Not every dog likes to be hugged, true. That DOESN'T mean it has the right to bite a kid all over its body. No. That isn't normal. There are enough normal dogs being put down, that we shouldn't be wasting what resources there are on dogs that bite the owners children.

Maybe Bailiff or Cliff could take this dog and keep it safely. Maybe. Have they stepped up to the plate and offered to take the dog? No. They probably have enough dogs that they do not need a project right now. They should not feel compelled to take every crazy dog out there just because someone placed a crazy dog in a family with children, who raised the dog and it's now biting the kids.

If it is biting the kids, it has to go. If it is not safe to go, it has to be put down. Everyone here that is clamoring for the dog to be rehomed, should be willing to take the dog on. If not, then maybe we should be encouraging this person to do what is responsible, and keep all the kids everywhere safe.

I know some dogs do not like being hugged. But a dog that will bite a family member for hugging it, is no good. The dog can move away, it can hide behind the couch, it can bark or even growl. It can snap, but if it bites and breaks the skin, then it doesn't belong in a home with a family. 

How the dog is how it is really doesn't matter. Perfectly good dogs put up with a lot of things from family members. 

My nieces are only at my house 3-4 times in a year. If any of my dogs bit them for hugging them... I just cannot see that ever happening. Not even dogs that spend most of their lives kenneled. It isn't normal. Even a bitch with puppies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The thing is, we have a pet for a number of reasons. We love dogs and want to share our lives with them. We want the enjoyment of having a critter that we can care for. We want to teach our kids about responsibility for God's creatures. We want to help our kids have something really special. 

Having a dog biting kids is not what we have pets for. 

I commend the OP for attempting to do something for the dog. Giving it back to the breeder would be ok, because if the breeder rehomed the dog without full disclosure and something awful happened, I expect he will have serious liability. But other people, unless you know them really, really well, you can't guarantee the dog will not attack another youngster. 

If this just started happening, and you could find a vitimin deficiency or thyroid problem that is solvable and a reason for the aggression, and are willing to change your leadership style and get the kids on board, then maybe. Downloading the dog to other people, if you can find anyone who wants to own a dog that will bite the owner's kids, I dunno.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Ok, I feel your pain. And I did not read all the answers here, but I give you mine. You have PEVI there? You know what that means, right I would try that, before putting the dog t sleep. In my opinion, and ofcourse, I am not trainer, BUT, u can train tho habits away. For what u ust wrote, it goes right this- dog little bite- no backing or conseguence, dog bites another time-same thing- etc. Habit- tough minded gsd...
Ok, so Now I get everybody on my neck because of my opinion- dog is bad...blaablaa. yes, it is possible, but first I would try the iceage for it. 
ZERO patting, zero everything. u know what I mean. New season. Write rules from a white board. 
two weeks approx, no nothing. u wont pat him, u wont ask him to do anything. zero. everything what u goes, u ignore the dog, and so would youre other family members. No looking, patting, naming, asking, zero. U go to walk, just put the leash on, not saying anything and just go. 

Can I ask is this PEVI just in my country, or do others know it? It works on very good with bad cases, it is like u rewrite the dog. 
Ofcourse, it does not work, if u have a dog with very bad traits. but very often, bad traits also, are from people.  

I am sorry if someone pick this up and gets angry. ;D


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

some dogs are just not good with kids but can make great pets in a kid free home. When a dog attacks a child, especially multiple times, it's better safe than sorry. Rather than invest your time on an uncertain outcome and put your kids at risk of being attacked again, homing your dog with experienced adults would be the safest option for your kids.

Make sure potential adopters know her issues and history, don't hide it, if someone's going to take her into their home they need to be aware of the problems and potential.

That's just my opinion. I've known people who instantly euthanized their dog for attacking kids despite being great pets when with adults, and it seems like such a shame to me. I always treat it as a potential with my dogs because any dog can be kid aggressive or fearful, if they start showing signs then limit or cut off contact (depending on severity,) but that's easy for me because they aren't MY kids.

I'm the kind of person, because I don't have kids and am experienced with aggression, who would adopt a dog with child aggression. I'm sorry people might make you feel like there's no loving home out there for your dog that could be more suitable than yours, but if you're contemplating euthanizing, then please consider giving your dog a second chance in another home.

PS: HI CHIP!!!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

pashana said:


> Ok, I feel your pain. And I did not read all the answers here, but I give you mine. You have PEVI there? You know what that means, right I would try that, before putting the dog t sleep. In my opinion, and ofcourse, I am not trainer, BUT, u can train tho habits away. For what u ust wrote, it goes right this- dog little bite- no backing or conseguence, dog bites another time-same thing- etc. Habit- tough minded gsd...
> Ok, so Now I get everybody on my neck because of my opinion- dog is bad...blaablaa. yes, it is possible, but first I would try the iceage for it.
> ZERO patting, zero everything. u know what I mean. New season. Write rules from a white board.
> two weeks approx, no nothing. u wont pat him, u wont ask him to do anything. zero. everything what u goes, u ignore the dog, and so would youre other family members. No looking, patting, naming, asking, zero. U go to walk, just put the leash on, not saying anything and just go.
> ...


No ... not "everyone" is gonna be on your neck. 

Most likely something a lot like this.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

It is a lack of management and most likely ..."to much dog??" But as I "don't have kids," I have no knowledge of how they fit in?? My "Rocky" had his people issues but attacking "pack members" humans was not one of them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dracovich said:


> some dogs are just not good with kids but can make great pets in a kid free home. When a dog attacks a child, especially multiple times, it's better safe than sorry. Rather than invest your time on an uncertain outcome and put your kids at risk of being attacked again, homing your dog with experienced adults would be the safest option for your kids.
> 
> Make sure potential adopters know her issues and history, don't hide it, if someone's going to take her into their home they need to be aware of the problems and potential.
> 
> ...


I'd almost agree with this if people in the US were more trustworthy. See if a dog bit my kids, since I have none, my nieces, and I found a home for that dog. If I found an adult home and told them exactly what the dog did and how the dog must not be around children. 

Because even when you do not have children, you sometimes have children next door, children that visit, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, children that run up behind you in the check out and throw their arms around your dog and hug him, and then skip back to their daddy saying, "I hugged the big doggy!" (Yeah, that's a true story.)

But let's say that your management style is excellent, you practice constant vigilence in public, and you are truly child-less. And you have that dog for 5 years with nary a problem. And then life changes for you. You lose your job and have to move into your parents' basement or your job transfers you states away, and you really cannot find a place in your price-range where you can have a GSD. Or worse yet, you get into a car accident and lose the use of your legs. You find it necessary to rehome because you will be in a rehab center for a minimum of 6 months. Life happens. Sometimes death happens too. Then what?

Now, because you are responsible adult, you want to find the dog a good home that understands the kid thing. The first 16 contacts for your 7 year old dog backed away when you mentioned the kid part. And for heaven's sake the dog was young then and with a family that really maybe didn't know what they were doing. Maybe the dog doesn't have a problem. Really. Its been fine with you. And suddenly, as the situation becomes more desparate, the next call doesn't get the spiel about kids, and 3 months later some kid is in the ER, maybe lost an eye, is disfigured, needs plastic surgery. 

You know, if you go through Wickipeadia's list of fatalities due to dog bites for any year, most of those dogs did not have a clean record before killing someone's kid. Most of them had a string of incidents, or a serious incident before hand. If you have a dog that you love and are willing to work with and keep every one safe from, and have the means to do so, well and good. I understand it. But if the dog is going to be re-homed, it does not have a family that truly understands the situation and loves the dog and is willing to work with it. Once you pass it to someone else, they are totally going off their impression of you and what you have said. They do not truly understand the problem. They think they do. It is a difference. 

Some dude in Africa, thought he was Cesar Milan, and rehabilitates seriously aggressive dogs. Well, there he is in the mall with his "service dog" -- a rehabilitated Rottweiler, and a small child walked by the dog, did not look at it, did nothing to set it off. But off it went. It viciously attacked the little girl. We aren't talking about a peek-a-poo here, that is going to break the skin and it's going to hurt, but is very unlikely to send you to the ER for more than a tetnus shot. We are talking about a dog that can kill a human being. 

If it hated all kids all the time, you might make a case for the dog, saying if you kennel the dog, and muzzle the dog, every single time it is in the vicinity of children, maybe it can be kept safely by people who do not have kids. But the dog is unpredictable. It startles when relaxed and starts biting a kid it knows well. It bites in protection of one kid, it bites the other kid that it knows well. It bites with no provacation some times and at others allows hugs and sleeps in the bed with a kid. It is a dog that someone will probably believe no longer has those problems. 

It has those problems. You're just living between incidents. 

I really don't want anyone to have to euthanize their dog. But the dog is either bad enough to be euthanized, or not so bad that it can be worked with. If it can be worked with, it should be worked with by the people that currently own the dog. They know what the dog is capable of. They understand the problem. If the dog is fine 99% of the time and just nipped the kid a few times, than the owner of the dog needs to work with a trainer to learn how to manage, train, govern the dog. If the dog is biting kids -- punctures, stitches and drains, bruises, ER, and it is clearly unsafe to have the dog around children, then it should be euthanized.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't disagree with Selzer about the euth....I just don't feel quite comfortable saying that with the limited second hand information available here. 

I no longer really feel like every dog should be saved. 

I don't even really feel like life is the most humane choice when certain training philosophies are employed.

I'd have to consider sending the kids on a sleepover, grownups do something fun with the dog, feed it some mcdonalds, take it to the vet and let it go happy.

In my mind, Selzer and Bailiff made some good points. Would the new home really stick to the management needed, what if their life changes.

A truly good trainer who is willing to work the dog around YOUR kids or has access to other kids...gonna be hard to find. In the mean time, each day that goes byou this can happen again.

One burning question I have is, the kid is in "denial" and continues to want to huge the dog? Same kid who was "attacked"? I'm very curious what the actual injuries were, medical treatment needed? The OP's description of the injuries is a little unclear to me.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't disagree with euthanizing a dog either, but I'm not going to recommend it to someone I don't know without ever seeing the dog. 

My basic take on it is this. It will take someone that didn't know what they were doing a bunch of time and money in the form of training with experts for a situation like this. It will also take an investment in willpower and steadfast determination to put that work in. There isn't an easy solution for a dog like that. There isn't a situation where you can send the dog off to Jeff Gellman, me, the best trainer on earth whoever that may be, or some vet with a magic pill and suddenly the dog will come back and never bite your kids again without you having to change your life and how you live with that dog in a major way and EVEN then there is no guarantee the dog won't do it again at some point.

So yeah. I don't know you. I don't know your dog. I will tell you this though. If you aren't 100% onboard with making changes to do what is necessary to live with a dog like that and accept the possible risks even though you try to have the presence of mind to try to mitigate those risks then do something about that dog. Maybe you can find some saint of a person willing to care for the dog, or maybe you have to deal with the dog in some less palatable way, but either way that's where you're at right now.

I will say this though. The people who have the skill to deal with dogs like that rarely want one like that.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Baillif said:


> The people who have the skill to deal with dogs like that rarely want one like that.


This is so true and it makes it so hard to solve this problem.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... if one is going to think only in terms of "worst case scenarios" then sure put the dog down. But ... just because the OP can't solve the issue first does not mean it can't be solved (find the right trainer) and second that "No else can??" 

It's not fair to throw Cliffson and Bailiff under the bus?? And it's not fair to make the OP believe that just because she can't solve her dog's issues, there is no hope for her dog??

Most likely ... there are millions of dogs out there ... that don't much care for kids??? And if they are raised and trained properly ... one could tell??? Most likely everyone has seen them and you can't tell?? Responsabile owners ...lots of us out there. And I ... had one, Rocky ... proofed under carefully controlled conditions "proved" he did not much care for toddlers!! That ... was a bit of a surprise to me ... but no problem ... I don't have kids so ... whatever.

Still crap happens.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8568570-post4.html

I don't have kids, and my dog clearly had a dislike for toddlers but none the less ... I taught him ...not to be biting the crap out of "people??" And when he was faced with the "unexpected appearance of a toddler ... while in an out of site "Place"and no daddy to be found??? He chose ... to "Walk Away." I train dogs to make "Good Choices." Surely ... I can't be alone???

Near as I can tell ... this dog has no medical issues??? Wrong home, and an owner in over her head ... at the moment?? Does mean "that" can't be changed with competent outside help but at the moment it is what it is. Full disclosure of the dogs history, of course would be required but sure it's a big lift as the dog "now" has a bite history but ... it can be done ... the pool of willing/capable owners ... is just a lot smaller.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is plenty of hope for the dog if the OP decided to go that route. It isn't necessarily an easy or cheap route. At the very least it comes with some serious freedom restrictions on the dog.

There is a dog in my training room right now that has been there for over a year. The dog had aggression issues with strangers. It went through training once the owners realized they had a baby on the way. THE DOG HAS NEVER GONE AFTER FAMILY, but there was a time where you couldn't get within 20 feet of the owner and the dog without the dog wanting to murder you. The baby came. The dog is still at the facility and who knows when or if they will pick the dog up. They are paying somewhere between 1-2k a month to keep the dog there and keep him alive, but they don't want to bring him home. Solution? Yeah. He gets on great with staff and goes and plays with dogs a good chunk of the day so pretty kick ass life. Not cheap though. I can't say I blame em for making that call, even though I'm a little irritated they don't give him a shot, but I do understand why they don't.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The dog doesn't just not like kids, right? It doesn't like other dogs. Can't be handled by the vet. Owners can't trim nails because it's trying to bite?

Now, I am not sure what any of that means still....because very vague second hand info. It might not be that big of a deal. It might be a bigger deal.

Sedation for x rays doesn't really excite me, they sedated mine for OFA'S so they could get a good shot. They did not sedate him or have any trouble x rating him around 6 months when I thought he ate a toy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I will say this though. The people who have the skill to deal with dogs like that rarely want one like that.


LOL ..yesss that does make sense.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... if one is going to think only in terms of "worst case scenarios" then sure put the dog down. But ... just because the OP can't solve the issue first does not mean it can't be solved (find the right trainer) and second that "No else can??"
> 
> It's not fair to throw Cliffson and Bailiff under the bus?? And it's not fair to make the OP believe that just because she can't solve her dog's issues, there is no hope for her dog??
> 
> ...



Chip, did your dog bite a toddler?

Babies and toddlers can be puzzling and even scary to dogs. They smell different than other people, and the move different. They are small, and people often exude different feelings when they are around babies, protective, anxious, etc. So a young dog that has not been around a toddler, might growl or bark at it. If it bites the toddler, that is a whole other level of scary. 

Bailiff's statement about people who can actually handle the dog, really do not want them, is the best so far. 

I too would like to get more information on the bites/attacks. There is a big difference between deep punctures and bruising, and a little blood. "It broke the skin" is a lot different than "I needed to go to the ER and have stitches and drains put in and it took the better part of six months to heal completely, I still have the scar."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Chip, did your dog bite a toddler?


NO, he did not ... when he was "tested" as it were. I was there ... he seemed calm enough and I covered the kidlets hand with mine and he reacted to the touch. But as my hand was over hers he got me first and let go. No harm no foul no reprimand, the toddler did not even notice but it freaked me out!!

No toddlers from then on! The link was after I already understood he did not like toddlers! A true "Crap Happens" situation! Rocky was out back so an out of site "place." Grandma ... should not have been there with the toddlers ...but she was?? Well no problem ... she'll watch the kid??? Yeah right ... I was the first to notice the toddlers was not indoors?? And I freaked as I bolted out back!!! I expected to see a scene of horror!!! But when I opened the door all I saw was the toddler standing there unharmed and looking puzzled alone??

It was then I looked for Rocky and he was gone??? I found him about 15 yards away ... just standing there and smiling at me! Apparently when the toddler approached .. he said "screw this" and "Walked Away" ... good enough.  

But maybe it was a size thing??? Youngsters appered to be not an issue?? I got challenged by a kid at Petco as to just exactly why ... "I can't pet your dog??" And I explained why and what, I'd be doing with him to help him with his people issues. He then said ... fine well is he Ok now?? Not really expecting that and in fact at this point in time he was in fact fine. I stepped aside and let the youngster pet Rocky. No issues he said, "nice dog" and went on his way. 

So ... he was safe enough around youngsters, but not up to my "Boxer Standards" for kid friendly. You must be this tall to Pet my dog ... does not work for me. So "I classified him" as a "No Kids Dog." My standards for acceptable behaviour are pretty high, Zero Bite Policy ... is how I roll.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... if one is going to think only in terms of "worst case scenarios" then sure put the dog down. But ... just because the OP can't solve the issue first does not mean it can't be solved (find the right trainer) and second that "No else can??"
> 
> It's not fair to throw Cliffson and Bailiff under the bus?? And it's not fair to make the OP believe that just because she can't solve her dog's issues, there is no hope for her dog??
> 
> ...


Chip, don't worry, they're not throwing me under the bus. My opinion is based on dealing with this type of dog and situation professionally. Everybody has right to an opinion, but everybody doesn't have extensive experience in areas of their opinion. Some people have an opinion on everything, your opinion is much closer to what I have experienced in dealing with these type cases. I can't go into people's homes with these type dogs with a preset mindset and be successful or a professional. Each situation is different, although when you have dealt with it enoughthe same variables seem to be in place. You can always tell folks who have limited exposure to this type situation by their concept of possible solutions.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

So, I just re-read the initial post. This dog grew up with kids in the home and, unless the OP left out critical info, had not bit the girls previously. My take on that is not that the dog is unsafe around, or doesn't like, kids. It's the dynamic in the home. The initial bite was in defense of the hugger. Subsequent biting occurred because the initial bite was not handled correctly. Should a family dog ever bite a child? Well, these kids are teenaged, not toddlers, so who knows what the provocation in the dog's mind was. But nowhere does the OP say anything about the dog attacking a toddler. Could she do that now? Absolutely, because she's learned that biting is an acceptable means of communication. Does that make this dog dangerous, yes, in the current environment. That is why I initially suggested rehoming instead of euthanasia. The dog is acting out in a dangerous way, but I don't believe - at least from the facts we have been told - that the dog is somehow neurologically defective. Hopefully a suitable home can be found...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I'm a bit surprised the daughter still wants to hug the dog that attacked her a few times and still is allowed to hug the dog after she was bit many times. Our first gsd did not like physical affection at all -we did respect his space. He would just get horse eyed if you put an arm around him. We had no kids at the time until he was much older and so it worked out. He came from a home with young kids but still not to sure how he would deal with all the affection my kids would have wanted to dish out if allowed presently which I would not allow knowing his discomfort. The dogs we have now enjoy the affection and don't mind. He also hated nail trims but was a stable confident dog though and was in a home suitable to him at the time till he passed at 12 years of age. Hope you find answers from professionals you seek.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

I'm not an expert, nor do I play one on TV.

However, due to the nature of internet forums, it seems likely there's some information missing here. This is natural, because you don't want to go writing a book detailing every little movement that occurred before and after the bite from all parties involved. That's extremely tedious and something that can be explained best with in-person conversations.

We could be missing all the warnings the dog was throwing over and over and over across the months and years she's lived in the house. She could have tried to tell the OP's daughter repeatedly that she doesn't like being hugged. Maybe the bite was the last straw and she couldn't take it anymore. Maybe she's experiencing a sudden hormone shift that's causing mental imbalance. Maybe she's developed some other mental issue (dogs get them just like people). Maybe something genetic has surfaced. We don't know, we weren't there.

I think, OP, you should have that dog evaluated by someone who specializes in behavior, especially aggression. Even if you decide to put the dog down, at least you'll know what caused her behavior, how it developed, and how not to allow that behavior to surface ever again in any future dogs. But this is a very serious matter, even if the bites were like a level 2-3 in severity. What's most disturbing is that at one point she bit your daughter with no provocation whatsoever. A dog that bites just because you look at it wrong is very dangerous.

Here's a link to a bite scale showing what I'm talking about: http://apdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ian-dunbar-dog-bite-scale.pdf

Ultimately, the choice is yours. Decide what is best for the safety and sanity of your family (including the dog).


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

ela said:


> 2 wks later the dog was asleep and my daughter went up to her and started hugging her and touched her paws. The dog attacked her with bites through the skin all over her body.
> 
> Then 4 days later we were leaving the house and the dog was just chilling by the entrance. When the same daughter was just passing the dog (totally benign no hint of interest in the dog) Dash just attacked her with multiple through the skin bites.


According to the Ian Dunbar bite scale these are level 5 bites. What more information do you need? No matter what causes this dog to bite, there just isn't a place in nowaday's society for dogs like these. I have seen it so often that people hang on to dogs that have bitten/mauled their owners and their kids and make excises because "they love the dog". I wonder if owners are liable with child protection services to keep a dog like that in the home. Someone has to be the smartest one in this.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If a full grown GSD actually attacks someone, it would be a trip to the ER. I am confused by the magnitude of the actual "attack". 

These are not toddlers so I don't think kid aggression is necessarily applicable. 

One other option is to simply build a nice and secure kennel area for the dog outside. Take her out twice daily for training and exercise. Make sure all her needs are met. Pretty simple solution.

I don't see a lot of GSDs that LOVE other dogs, and when I first took my GSD to the vet, she was super afraid of her because of the bad rep. so many GSDs have for being difficult at the vet. My girl was perfect, and the vet soon loved her, but there are lots of GSDs that do not do well at the vet, and they are not all mauling kids. This is rather irrelevant. 

It's really very difficult to tell what is going on without seeing the dog. 

OP, post again if you are willing to try training with the dog and doing what needs to be done to keep the dog in the home and we can help you find a good trainer to help you out.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wolfydog I really don't think that we know this is a level 5 biter. Extremely dangerous and mutilates??? 

if the dog had done that much damage to the kid I think either the police or animal control or both would have been notified by the emergency room.

Read his description of level 2 bites...may have been what OP was intending to describe.

That's the problem with Internet info...


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

One more thought. Not that it's ever "OK" but intact females go through some pretty distinct changes with hormonal cycles and this could be contributing. Bitches are far more likely to fight just before or during heat cycles. Dogs likewise, but only during the cycles- fighting for breeding rights. Depending on the dog in question, it can be a strong driver of behavior, or not really, but it should come into consideration. Wolves get nasty with each other during breeding season, the reason only alpha male-female mate is not a pretty one. 

This is one dog, but I could certainly see her getting nasty with a teenage girl in the home if she was never handled correctly- she might see the human as a competitor... I'm simplifying it but you get my point. Solution might be the same, but something to think about.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

What kind of interaction have the kids had with her in the past? Have either of them teased or provoked her in what might seem like a fun or innocent game to us, but may build frustration from the dog?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Wolfydog I really don't think that we know this is a level 5 biter. Extremely dangerous and mutilates???
> 
> if the dog had done that much damage to the kid I think either the police or animal control or both would have been notified by the emergency room.
> 
> ...


OP can determine the bite level. It shouldn't be that hard to do. Curious.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

put up a video of this dog interacting with YOU (OP).

just normal day to day in the house - not training or testing 

is the breeder a byb?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have NOT read the whole 6 pages of discussion.

ANY dog who randomly attacks and bites "through the skin" "all over the body" on family members - children!!! - who love her...is not 100% stable - no excuses, no rationalization.

The dog has a bite history - is by most standards a "dangerous dog"

There are sweet stable GSDs being put to sleep for lack of homes every day in the US......

If I was the breeder, I would take the dog back and euthanize it....this is NOT your fault...this is a dog who is not wired right. Your breeder needs a kick in the behind for their blaming you!



Sorry for the bluntness.


Lee


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> There is plenty of hope for the dog if the OP decided to go that route. It isn't necessarily an easy or cheap route. At the very least it comes with some serious freedom restrictions on the dog.
> 
> There is a dog in my training room right now that has been there for over a year. The dog had aggression issues with strangers. It went through training once the owners realized they had a baby on the way. THE DOG HAS NEVER GONE AFTER FAMILY, but there was a time where you couldn't get within 20 feet of the owner and the dog without the dog wanting to murder you. The baby came. The dog is still at the facility and who knows when or if they will pick the dog up. They are paying somewhere between 1-2k a month to keep the dog there and keep him alive, but they don't want to bring him home. Solution? Yeah. He gets on great with staff and goes and plays with dogs a good chunk of the day so pretty kick ass life. Not cheap though. I can't say I blame em for making that call, even though I'm a little irritated they don't give him a shot, but I do understand why they don't.


Just curious, if they care that much ... why don't they post him as available as a rescue??? In essence, he is simply in a very expensive "Foster Home." 

It would seem like a slam dunk to find him a home ... but I suppose it gets back to people do stuff.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> The dog doesn't just not like kids, right? It doesn't like other dogs. Can't be handled by the vet. Owners can't trim nails because it's trying to bite?
> 
> Now, I am not sure what any of that means still....because very vague second hand info. It might not be that big of a deal. It might be a bigger deal.
> 
> Sedation for x rays doesn't really excite me, they sedated mine for OFA'S so they could get a good shot. They did not sedate him or have any trouble x rating him around 6 months when I thought he ate a toy.


You're, kinda sorta lumping a whole lot of "issues" into one big pile??

The getting along well "automatically" with other dog's thing ... that's a "choice by the owner." I always marvel at some of my friends and neighbors that just take there dogs ... over to friends and family and "expect" every dog to get along ... just fine???

Apparently ... it can be done?? But it's not my thing .... I trust "No One!" My dogs come first. I train my dogs to "ignore other dogs" and that is what they do." They can go anywhere with me and ignore every dog to be found and as it happens ... when allowed to freely interact with unknown dogs my guys did just well. But as that is not my purpose ... I don't advise on creating a Dog Park Dog, as it were. The other dog thing friendly, is an owner choice ... not really pertinent here. 

Vet thing ... I see has already been covered. Some GSD's have zero issues at the Vet and some have a Cow??? In as much as I had uh "People Issues" with Rocky ... I fully expected him to be a handful at the Vet's office??? But ... apparently by spending tons of time and effort ..."showing him what I wanted??" He was always one of the best dogs at the Vet's office! Marilyn wanted him muzzled for a time and I said "No he's fine" and he always was at Vet visits there were ... "Zero Issues." 

And the nails thing ... yeah that can be PIA, I never had an issue but some people do ... getting a dog over it is a process and yeah use a "Muzzle" if necessary ... it's a "process" for some dogs. 

But none of those "issues" are the real problem here but dumping ... "all ill behaviours" into one big bag ... makes it difficult to separate out what is important and what is not??? Baby steps ... is the key to success. 

I see the issue as a fundamental, "Lack of respect" by two parties! No respect from the one daughter for the dog and no respect for the dog for the one daughter! If there is no respect by the dog for the owner or the owner for the dog??? Someone is going to the ER or the Vet! 

I tried that at first and it did not work out too well! 116 lbs of ticked off GSD, (who did not care much for being number two in Pack Rank) and 85 lbs of number one American Band Dawg and 175 lbs of "No dog attacks my dog without getting past me owner!" Mix it all up and ... yeah someone is gonna get hurt! And ... it was me! Good times , Good times, but ... when I stopped reacting and started thinking ... it all changed! And pretty much without much effort?

By and large ... most of what I did ... is applicable here but, hey I don't have kids ... so there is that. Still ...in the olds days ...if I'd have told my Dad. Dad Chip bit the crap out of me! My Dad would have said ... "Well Son ... what did you do??" I'd have answered and most likely. My Dad would have said ... "well son *"Don't do that again!" *

KISS is how I roll but hey ... "I don't do kids and dogs."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfstraum said:


> I have NOT read the whole 6 pages of discussion.
> 
> ANY dog who randomly attacks and bites "through the skin" "all over the body" on family members - children!!! - who love her...is not 100% stable - no excuses, no rationalization.
> 
> ...


That is exactly how I feel, but I will go one further. If I was the breeder, I would take the dog back and euthanize it, and I would not breed that combination again. And I would put serious thought into breeding the sire and dam to any other dogs as well. If the sire was not mine, I wouldn't use it again. 

Yes, the kids are not toddlers. But they are family members, who the dog was raised with. And were children when the dog was raised with them. Nope. Not ok to bite the teenager all over her body. I don't even know what that would look like. Was the dog in a frenzy, biting, releasing, biting releasing getting arms, legs, butt, face, torso?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I totally understand the concern people have here, and I've got to admit I'm both repulsed and fascinated with all this speculation...the truth, I'm sure is nowhere near as bad as the mental images we all have when we hear about something like this. Dog bites child...child she's lived with her whole life...end of story right???

I don't know if it's the holes in the story, or what I see as inconsistencies, that are making me feel a little hesitant on this one. First incident, girls arguing and dog incorrectly comes to the aid of one of them biting the other. This biting is described as multiple skin breaking bites - no mention of ER, no mention of animal control questions, and the dog continues to live in the house and sleep and cuddle with the one girl. Hmm?

Next the hugging girl jumps on the dog while sleeping hugging and playing with her feet??? Not sure how you'd go about doing both at once, but okay. Dog is startled, we're told, and again multiple skin breaking bites all over, but no mention of ER, animal control etc. 

Without even going into the last episode, I'm having some plausibility issues already. I'm not saying the OP is intentionally misleading anyone, only that interpreting what happened from a neutral point of view is difficult. Daughter still wants to hug and sleep with the dog??? I can tell you that on any given day my dog bites me as well, leaving multiple skin breaking bites all over my body -- I call it play. We do this almost daily, and I love playing with her roughly. Now I realise that with the OP's dog this wasn't play, but the severity of the injuries inflicted by the dog is not clear. My dog growls and bites me too, but only during play, I would not tolerate it otherwise, nor would my dog ever consider it I'm sure.

Moving on, the family cannot believe she is thinking of putting the dog down. And, for the record OP said in the initial post that the dog does get along with most people and other dogs, so there's that. 

Just too many points in the dog's favor for me to vote to down it without further proof that the dog wasn't unreasonably provoked.

But of course, that being said, I also understand the feeling expressed that any dog biting kid for any reason should be put down immediately. Too many stable, well adjusted GSDs out there to keep one who's questionable around...

Some video of the dog and the people interacting would be greatly appreciated and informative.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Here are some thoughts from a force free trainer on behavioral euthanization. I personally think this trainer is subtly making the argument that if force free methods don't work, euthanization should be the next step. I would like to hear what others thoughts are on this trainer's blog post. 


https://thecognitivecanine.com/2017/09/06/we-need-to-talk-about-behavioral-euthanasia/


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> I totally understand the concern people have here, and I've got to admit I'm both repulsed and fascinated with all this speculation...the truth, I'm sure is nowhere near as bad as the mental images we all have when we hear about something like this. Dog bites child...child she's lived with her whole life...end of story right???
> 
> I don't know if it's the holes in the story, or what I see as inconsistencies, that are making me feel a little hesitant on this one. First incident, girls arguing and dog incorrectly comes to the aid of one of them biting the other. This biting is described as multiple skin breaking bites - no mention of ER, no mention of animal control questions, and the dog continues to live in the house and sleep and cuddle with the one girl. Hmm?
> 
> ...


Well ... I take people at their word but speaking for myself ... and granted I was not the intended target in my "Pack Fight Dust Up's." But yeah ... in GSD's gone wrong ... there is usually someone heading somewhere for stitches ... they use a really long needle for those that don't know.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... I take people at their word but speaking for myself ... and granted I was not the intended target in my "Pack Fight Dust Up's." But yeah ... in GSD's gone wrong ... there is usually someone heading somewhere for stitches ... they use a really long needle for those that don't know.


Exactly...doesn't really add up!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Just curious, if they care that much ... why don't they post him as available as a rescue??? In essence, he is simply in a very expensive "Foster Home."
> 
> It would seem like a slam dunk to find him a home ... but I suppose it gets back to people do stuff.


Rescues pull dogs from kill shelters. They don't generally take unwanted dogs directly off peoples hands, at least none that I am aware of. Given his history he'd be a concern anyway.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Ela,

You have my utmost sympathies. I have a teenage and a toddler daughter myself. I can tolerate alot of misbehavior from dogs but the one behavior I will never tolerate is aggression towards my family. Fortunately, I have never owned a dog that has crossed the line in that regard. Had your situation happen to me, the first bite incident would have been the last. I would have ceased all interaction between the dog and my children and I would have proceeded to dispose of the dog humanely either by returning it to the breeder, finding a suitable home with someone experienced enough and willing to manage this type of dog, or euthanizing it.

I wish you the best whatever you decide to do. And you are right, your children always come first.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Wolfhund said:


> Here are some thoughts from a force free trainer on behavioral euthanization. I personally think this trainer is subtly making the argument that if force free methods don't work, euthanization should be the next step. I would like to hear what others thoughts are on this trainer's blog post.
> 
> 
> https://thecognitivecanine.com/2017/09/06/we-need-to-talk-about-behavioral-euthanasia/


Wolfhund....I see nothing wrong with the article. I do not read it to say that all or any dogs that bite kids should be put down. I read it to say that upon reviewing situation she has found that in some cases rehoming the dog without triggers has worked, in some cases because of lack of leadership in home, rehoming has worked, and in some cases the dog is so extreme to euthanize is the best option. I wholeheartedly concur, as this has been my experiences with this type of situation. No one answer fits all cases or all dogs, and remember an experienced person dealing with this issue fully realizes the importance of seeing situation first hand before passing judgment....WHY?, because five people can view an situation and you will get five different interpretations of severity, causation, or the incident itself. Especially from inexperienced people assessing what they are viewing.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Assuming that this is the same dog, OP, it seems that Dash has been something of a challenge from the beginning --- perhaps because you/your family and this dog were simply not a good match. Sometimes circumstances make for a poor match (e.g., trying to raise kids and puppies simultaneously and my hat's off to folks who do that) and sometimes the dog's temperament and/or needs (for experienced handling) make for a poor match. Unfortunately, we sometimes don't realize how big a challenge we're facing (or have inadvertently created) until really bad things start to happen --- e.g., family members are bitten _multiple _times.

OP, you've apparently solicited and received recommendations from several sources (vet, trainers, even members of this BB). That advice seems to have been remarkably convergent: Whether rehoming/placement (with an experienced group/individual) or euthanasia, the dog has to go. 


Frankly, I fail to understand both the question and your delay. What else has to happen before you take steps to protect your family _and _Dash?

Aly


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I love that article, @Wolfhund, thank's for posting the link. I agree, @cliffson1, that the author argues for a more thoughtful, nuanced approach. Here's the bottom line, for me:

_We must take responsibility for these animals, apply effective training, and if it becomes necessary to do so, take a life. It is the deal we have struck._

Aly


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

The dog wasn't raised with...
The dog was bought from the breeder (BYB?) at 2 yrs old, intact for the purpose of breeding her (the breeder and maybe the OP, although she says not really that interested in) . I didn't see anywhere that she said the dog was raised, nor where she says how long she has had this dog, or how long she has had it before this all happened. A week, A month, A year?


Could this have been instinctive to break up a kerfuffle that resulted in bites? Hormonal as Muskeg noted?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Rescues pull dogs from kill shelters. They don't generally take unwanted dogs directly off peoples hands, at least none that I am aware of. Given his history he'd be a concern anyway.


I was thinking more along the lines of "Foster in Place??" Just a thought.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Chip18 said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of "Foster in Place??" Just a thought.


No rescue will touch that dog. Too big of a liability. As others have said, there are very nice GSDs dying in shelters every day. Plus - most people looking to adopt from rescues are looking for a nice pet quality dog. 'Most' are not up to the challenge of a dog with those type of issues.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> You're, kinda sorta lumping a whole lot of "issues" into one big pile??
> 
> The getting along well "automatically" with other dog's thing ... that's a "choice by the owner." I always marvel at some of my friends and neighbors that just take there dogs ... over to friends and family and "expect" every dog to get along ... just fine???
> 
> ...


Someone made some mention of the dog being fine most of the time...yes I intended to lump it all together, point being the dog has more than 1 issue apparently


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GatorBytes said:


> The dog wasn't raised with...
> The dog was bought from the breeder (BYB?) at 2 yrs old, intact for the purpose of breeding her (the breeder and maybe the OP, although she says not really that interested in) . I didn't see anywhere that she said the dog was raised, nor where she says how long she has had this dog, or how long she has had it before this all happened. A week, A month, A year?
> 
> 
> Could this have been instinctive to break up a kerfuffle that resulted in bites? Hormonal as Muskeg noted?


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/581833-terrified-street.html


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> The dog wasn't raised with...
> The dog was bought from the breeder (BYB?) at 2 yrs old, intact for the purpose of breeding her (the breeder and maybe the OP, although she says not really that interested in) . I didn't see anywhere that she said the dog was raised, nor where she says how long she has had this dog, or how long she has had it before this all happened. A week, A month, A year?
> 
> 
> Could this have been instinctive to break up a kerfuffle that resulted in bites? Hormonal as Muskeg noted?


 "But they are family members, who the dog was raised with. And were children when the dog was raised with them"

Checked some older ela posts and apparently the dog WAS raised with the children .

quote ela "Dash, our 14 wk old, is petrified of going on the street outside of our yard. It's been like this for weeks since we got her"

The dog hadn't been a confident pup right from the start .


The breeder showed concern page one of the posts
"A year later he did the X-ray of hips and she was so aggressive at the vet - they had to put her to sleep for the X-ray - that he was telling me that we need to do something about it."

HE -- ? He , the breeder , I am thinking took the dog to his vet to do the x-ray in preparation for breeding . He said WE (THEY) need to do something about it.

Temperament , management , indulgences. 

The dog was described by the OP as being "Overall the dog is very sensitive even a bit anxious. "

Since when? Did the breeder describe the dog in these terms? Are there dynamics in the house hold that would contribute to the dog being more anxious.

Is there another family member , adult, spouse , and what is the interaction between them and the dog.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/581833-terrified-street.html



Yeah, just went and looked at other threads. She has had since pup. So guess that's where the breeder lays blame. 



carmspack said:


> "But they are family members, who the dog was raised with. And were children when the dog was raised with them"
> 
> The breeder showed concern page one of the posts
> "A year later he did the X-ray of hips and she was so aggressive at the vet - they had to put her to sleep for the X-ray - that he was telling me that we need to do something about it."
> ...



I got that impression b/c of how this read "We have a 2 yo GSD female we got from a breeder. She wasn't fixed and he asked if we would consider breeding her at one point for him. We said maybe."....


So the dog was raised with kids.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

important information 

ella said 
"So we survived our 1st night wiht our 10 wk old puppy. He slept/rested a lot during the day. 
At night she woke up to go potty at 1:30am and refused to go back to crate. Instead she decided to lay down next to a couch (where my daughter chose to sleep), next to her crate. Pup rested/slept peacefuly until 6:30am. "

so this dog has been in this house hold since it was 10 weeks of age .

all the other posts are about stress, potty training frustrations, regressions in being house clean, and temperament/confidence issues - walking , cars , hesitation to go out into the big world and BOLTING home 
to safety .

bad combination of poor temperament , and indulgences. 

The pup decided not to sleep in the crate and was accommodated. Pup in charge.

How difficult is it to lift a 10 week old pup and put it into the crate and say good night fella ?

Babied . No training?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Yeah, just went and looked at other threads. She has had since pup. So guess that's where the breeder lays blame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was what I understood also -- that they adopted the dog as an adult , one that the breeder had held back with breeding in mind . 

I concluded that the dog was a recent new member being in that home for a matter of months .

the OP could have said we have a 2 year old that we got from a breeder as a pup --- that would have been much clearer.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

carmspack said:


> important information
> 
> ella said
> "So we survived our 1st night wiht our 10 wk old puppy. He slept/rested a lot during the day.
> ...


So, the OP clearly has a dog that's naturally very anxious and underconfident. If there was no training done to specifically address this innate anxiety and boost her confidence, then that anxiety would have only gotten worse over time. And unlike people, who tend to become shut-ins with panic attacks when they have severe anxiety, dogs tend to bite when they're very anxious and feeling trapped (panicked).

Hence the situation the OP has now.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

GatorBytes said:


> Steve Strom said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/581833-terrified-street.html
> ...


I assumed the same. I was not aware the dog was raised as a pup with teenagers for 2 years. It did sound like they got the dog when older and more recent. There is still a lot of missing information. I hope they are steered towards a highly recommended professional to access the entire situation then make the decision on what to do.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I'm always impressed when folks who post about the challenges they're facing (big or small), come back with updates on their progress. It's worrisome to think that, based on past form, we'll not hear back from OP. 

Aly


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree, I wish we'd hear from the OP, and thanks for bringing up the history.

I'm OK with a dog who doesn't like strangers, but I do draw the line if the dog is attacking family. I'm not so sure the dog is temperamentally flawed. I think the dog has been indulged and did have a relatively weak temperament, but not one that is so terrible the dog can't thrive in a different scenario. My pups are always eager to explore the world, from less than 6 weeks on... bolting back home is a concern. But who knows how much of that is rearing vs. genetics... hard to say. 

My opinion is the breeder should take the dog back, and do what he feels is best.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> I agree, I wish we'd hear from the OP, and thanks for bringing up the history.
> 
> I'm OK with a dog who doesn't like strangers, but I do draw the line if the dog is attacking family. I'm not so sure the dog is temperamentally flawed. I think the dog has been indulged and did have a relatively weak temperament, but not one that is so terrible the dog can't thrive in a different scenario.


This does sound possible. The "only" problem is that the dog has bitten, even on multiple occasions and of course it worked for her. A bite is also a very powerful experience for a dog and they will never forget. Once a biter, always a biter to me.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Maybe Tyler Muto could help:

A Silent Killer - K9 Connection


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

For me, aggression towards my kids in non negotiable. However, I have always taught my kids never to hug a sleeping dog, to make sure it was fully awake before they approach. Because I wouldn't like being hugged suddenly if I was in a deep sleep. And they weren't teenagers when they learnt this! As for the aggression when cutting nails, you should have been handling that dog the moment you got her as a puppy. I actually teach my dogs body parts. Ears, am going to look in you ears. Teeth, going to look in your mouth. Paws, am going to mess around with them. However accept that some dogs can change. A friends lab suddenly started bullying their eldest (not biting though) and they rehomed him to a kid free farm where he lived happily for the rest of his life. As your pup has learnt to bite to get what they need, you have to carefully rehome or put to sleep. Although that makes me sad as my rescue pup came to me (although a lot younger than yours) with a history of biting. She has never felt the need to use her teeth on us and I completely trust she won't.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> No rescue will touch that dog. Too big of a liability. As others have said, there are very nice GSDs dying in shelters every day. Plus - most people looking to adopt from rescues are looking for a nice pet quality dog. 'Most' are not up to the challenge of a dog with those type of issues.


Oh we have cross discussions going. 

I was addressing "Bailiff's" grand a month. owners don't trust the dog "still" project.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Oh we have cross discussions going.
> 
> I was addressing "Bailiff's" grand a month. owners don't trust the dog "still" project.


They're doctors so high income family and the dog is safe where he is and I guess they want to leave the option of possibly taking him back. I dunno. He's living fine where he is so I'm not that motivated to ask.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> They're doctors so high income family and the dog is safe where he is and I guess they want to leave the option of possibly taking him back. I dunno. He's living fine where he is so I'm not that motivated to ask.


LOL ... OK ... I'll stop worrying about that dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wolfhund said:


> Maybe Tyler Muto could help:
> 
> A Silent Killer - K9 Connection


I have zero issues with Tyler Muto ... I share his work all the time.

My personal favorite project of his is "Shelly!" :





Since my first dog "Gunther" a D/A, American Band Dawg ... had a very high, potential to become a dog just like that, I have a pretty good idea of the choices those owners made??? I did not make those same choices, sooo ... "No Pro" needed. 

And yesss, most likely Tylor could "fix the dog" if ... the owners are willing to stick with his advice?? But I don't know that "Tylor," has kids and if he does?? Does he use them in his work??? 


Sigh ... as I posted ... "Jeff Gellman" does have kids and, he use his kids in his work with dogs. And he "Show his work" he uses "his kids" in working with Kid biting, dogs and he "Shows his work!" 

If there is another "Trainer" that does the same ... "Show Me"because I have not seen it???Pretending like there are "No Answers" gets on my last nerve! This is a "very expensive dog" for this owner, in this home, with these problems at this time ... no doubt! But pretending like there are not "Trainers" out there that can solve this ... rubs me raw. I posted the link and it shows how Jeff works, ... it cost the OP ... "Zero Dollars" to find out what Jeff recommends! And I'm gonna say ... that is more than the OP knew, when they started this thread???

Kinda why ... "I don't screw around with other dogs," ... just saying.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I did not see the earlier posts. Somehow I read it that they kept her intact because the breeder wanted to maybe use her for breeding, but when they got the hips done, she was so aggressive that they said they should do something about that, and then the breeder was blaming the owner. Sounded like they raised her from a pup to me. Thus, the pup was raised with 11 and 12 year old girls that are now young teenagers getting bit up.

With the added information, it sounds like a very weak-nerved dog. No it should never be bred. The biting is probably out of fear, being startled, whatever -- YES, temperament is number 1 in importance when it comes to pet-homes. The dog has learned to use its teeth in uncomfortable situations. 

Yes, the right owner could probably manage the environment of this dog to keep it within its comfort zone most of the time, and provide proper leadership, so that the dog will feel a lot more comfortable, and yes, that will tend to reduce the symptoms of poor temperament. Once a bond/trust/training has developed, careful socialization -- ventures outside of the comfort zone with proper setting up for success and praise, could build the confidence of the dog some what. 

Force training/behavior modification would not be the way I would go. I think it would be totally counter-productive. If I were to take this dog, I would give it several months of a basic safe routine -- no particular attention. Just let it forget it's previous experience as much as possible. Then I would begin and the beginning. 

The thing is, while I feel confident I could handle this dog without getting bit, I wouldn't take it. Not unless it was one of mine. I've got 3 dogs under 2 and another young dog is more than I want, particularly one that will need to be worked with. And I would have to be careful when I have my nieces over -- now they can take care of my dogs for me. And, God forbid, I do not stay in good health, but go into the hospital, my dad will have to go over and feed my dogs. I don't want him getting bit by a dog that has a weak temperament and I would be keeping as a project. 

I know that sounds really selfish or cold, but the people that can manage the dog really do not want a dog like this. Not most of them. 

I think the responsibility is on the owner that raised the dog or the breeder that bred the dog. They should take responsibility. If the owner has strong attachment to this dog, then she needs to commit to finding a good behaviorist/trainer and do what it takes to change the environment and how everyone interacts with the dog. If she can't do this, and the breeder will not take the dog back, then maybe that family member that works 10 hours a day isn't such a bad idea after all.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have a lot of respect for Tyler Muto but he is in Buffalo and this dog is in MA...not sure how he could possibly oversee a rehab program for this dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wonder why he doesn't put a prong on that Pit instead of choking her partly.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I wonder why he doesn't put a prong on that Pit instead of choking her partly.


Prong collars can overstimulate certain dogs and defeat the purpose of a correction vs. slip or choke collars where the effect is to subdue via reducing the air supply.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> I wonder why he doesn't put a prong on that Pit instead of choking her partly.


A Prong collar can put drive into a dog, or take drive out of a dog ... it depends on how it's used. 

Most likely "Shelly" has had a lifetime of being yanked and pulled on??? So a "prong Collar" out the gate ... would have been "bring it on!" 

Tylor did not do that, get did thinks the dog ... did not expect and he did start with "loose the harness" and leash and well the "Pet Convincer!" (I never noticed that before???) And then he started by showing the Dog what he wanted and how he "expects her to behave." 

It was the intro for "Shelly" and technically ... if one wants to "quibble" Tylor started with "Corrections??" But in general ... for most people ....building a bond and establishing Rules Structure and Limitations first ... before addressing "issues" is a better way to go.  

And some trainers don't use a "Prong Collar or an E-Collar for "Corrections" they use a "DDC" but that's another topic.

"Baby Steps" is the key ... but I don't have kids.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Shelly.... in a protection agitation harness to start. Interesting choice by the owners. 

The thing always is, Shelly might do fine in the dog yard at Tyler Muto's where there are trainers with lunge whips standing about and things are predictable.

Will this last for Shelly in the real world without, to borrow a Harry Potter line, "constant vigilance!".

Always remember, videos can be edited. Also remember, the brunt of training maintenance from a board and train ultimately lies with the owners. If the owners can't or don't maintain, the dog will quickly regress. 

It appears the OP has left the forum. I wish she'd stayed, because I think Cowboy could have offered connections with some good local trainers, which would have been invaluable.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> Chip, don't worry, they're not throwing me under the bus. My opinion is based on dealing with this type of dog and situation professionally. Everybody has right to an opinion, but everybody doesn't have extensive experience in areas of their opinion. Some people have an opinion on everything, your opinion is much closer to what I have experienced in dealing with these type cases. I can't go into people's homes with these type dogs with a preset mindset and be successful or a professional. Each situation is different, although when you have dealt with it enough the same variables seem to be in place. You can always tell folks who have limited exposure to this type situation by their concept of possible solutions.


Aww well ... as they say "most problems, start at home." And if my "opinion" is close to yours here ?? I'll say thanks ... I'm flattered.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey Chip, we all love this breed and strive to help others,( I hope) ...all of our opinions are shaped by our journey in the breed and dog training. Hopefully, we can help OP come to a good resolution for her and her family, which is far more important than if I'm right or wrong!


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