# Best way to handle it when she "challenges" me?



## TheVintageAngel (Oct 4, 2011)

I put "challenges" in quotes because I'm not 100% sure that is what it is...but it sure feels like it.

Jemma is now 4.5 months old. The out of control land shark biting and nipping is slowing down considerably...but something happens once or twice a day that is bothering me. I wanted to ask if this is normal behavior, or if it could form into aggressive behavior in the future? 

Since it just happened...I'll describe the scene...

I was sitting on the floor of our family room, Jemma was playing with a toy near me. She came over...sort of rolled onto me and started mouthing me with that "I'm a crazy puppy and I'm gonna getcha" look on her face. It felt like she was trying to initiate play...and so this time, I got the tug rope out and played with her and she went bonkers and played with me. Seemed to end well, but I worry that this rewards the initial behavior which I don't really like because she's forceful in the way she does it, and the barking has a slightly aggressive or frustrated feel to it (not just happy yippy play barking) and she is already a very big doggie even at her young age. 

The same situation had occured last night as well...only that time, per my obedience trainer's advice, I gave her a swift, downward leash pop (she had her leash on as part of her training time) and said a low, growly OT OT, also as my trainer suggested. When I did this "correction"...she started barking at me...LOUDLY. I tried another correction...it got worse. 

While with the trainer I described this, and when I told her I had been turning my back to the dog and igorning this behavior...she said that turning your back on a dog is not a good idea in this situation, and that playing tug when she does it rewards the behavior and could actually cause it to continue or get worse...and that I needed to offer a correction (leash pop quickly and Ot Ot noise). I watch the Dog Whisperer and Cesar seems to also correct this type of behavior in his own way (his is usually a firm touch or his magical shhhhhht noise). However, many sources suggest to "ignore" and turn your back...or to play tug instead. I feel like I'm rambling...but I just desperately want to do the right thing so that Jemma gets over this. 

I will take any advice to heart...thanks in advance!


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

What are your goals for this puppy? 

I want a pushy, self-confident, throws-himself-at-the-world dog for sport. I want a dog that's arrogant and never backs down, a dog who's not afraid to take risks or make mistakes. So when he acts like that, I either engage him in play or training, or I ignore him.


If you want a submissive, calm, quiet dog who really doesn't want to displease your or do something wrong, continue with the corrections. 

It all depends on what you want from your dog.


----------



## TheVintageAngel (Oct 4, 2011)

I definately don't want a fearful dog...but since I have children (ages 6 and 8) I don't want a dog that thinks playing rough is okay. The very LAST thing I want is an unreliable around children kind of dog or a hyper, obsessive dog...so calm and submissive sounds ideal to me....I love that she's playful...but this seems to border on something more like a challenge...because of how she goes about it.


----------



## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

When Minka started to get wild in the house, it was an obvious indication to me that she had puppy energy building up and needed to be exercised. So outside we would go and play and train. Then when we came back inside she was content to rest. I totally don't agree with popping the puppy for wanting to interact with you. A horrible way to create a relationship, IMHO. And in another IMHO, I'd seek out a different trainer.


----------



## TheVintageAngel (Oct 4, 2011)

I understand...and am getting increasingly confused by the various methods. What I do know is that the first four months of Jemma's life I didn't correct her much at all. I rewarded good behavior and ignored the bad...and she was getting wild and out of control to the point where I was a nervous wreck. Since she's started with the trainer...she's improved how she walks on leash...and our bond seems to have gotten better. I am sure that is NOT because of the corrections for play initiation...I see what you mean on that completely...but what the trainer did have me do is starting keeping Jemma on leash with me at all times for a couple days...in all areas of the house...even going outside for her during yard time, all this with the exception of some downtime in her crate from time to time when needed. Once I did this...she has gotten really attached to me, and will follow me around much more and seems a lot more focussed on me. I just keep feeling like it's a puzzle I need to figure out. Jemma does a lot of jumping up with feet on counters, jumping on the kids, this challenging of me and my husband that I described, etc. While I understand that this seems to be typical GSD pup behavior...I feel like ignoring it completely wasn't doing much in the way of taking care of the unwanted behavior. 

Just because I forgot to mentiont his too - she is NOT wearing a choker collar of any sort...just a regular nylon buckle style.


----------



## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

I think the bottom-line is this - a puppy has lots of energy and they need a constructive way to express it. Just like housebreaking is a pain in the A because you have to be on top of it and willing to get up and take the puppy out all the time no matter what else is going on, so is it with energy. Your pup sounds like she has a lot of energy and she needs to get out and do something. With Minka, if she is getting into trouble and being a roughneck, we go outside and do something constructive with that energy. Actually, when they are really up that is the best time to train!

Minka is older now and we have good expectations of each other - every morning first thing we go out and play/train. Then she is content to relax until I get home from work and out we go again. Then she is a good house dog for the rest of the night. I don't mean to make this sound trivial, because I put a lot of thought (and energy) into making this time good for her. She is learning and expanding excess energy. I mix things up with agility, and obedience, hiking, Schutzhund ... and I know not everybody has the time to do all of this. But in the end, I think your dog is saying she needs more exercise.

What worries me about your trainer is anyone who #1 can't see that your pup is a puppy that probably just needs more constructive exercise (and I am only going by your description of your dog's behavior) and #2 is worried about turning her back on a 4.5 month old pup . . . well it's kind of way out there in left field.


----------



## TheVintageAngel (Oct 4, 2011)

Gotcha...and yes, she is a high energy pup....as if there is any other type?  Right now it is freeeezing cold, icy and snowy where we live....so it's probably THE worst time of year for all of us in that regard....we have started being creative with inside games...hide and seek, tug, etc...and also brave the cold because nothing seems to really work like a brisk walk. 

I was letting her have one day of doggy play time at doggie day care...I work from home so this was less about getting her out of a crate for the day and more just getting her some excerise and play time. But, the trainer I hired also said she didn't like that idea because it can cause a dog to be fearful or aggressive because of having to spend the day with a group of strange dogs. I suppose that's another thread, but what are your thoughts on that?


----------



## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

I live in Wisconsin so I get the cold, ice and snow. I bundle up and out we go. Winter seems to bring out more energy in Minka  

Personally? When I am in the house I don't want to play with Minka. I want to rest; I want her to rest. So truly no matter the weather not rain cold or snow interferes with exercise outdoors.

As far as doggy day care or dog parks - I don't have any use for them. I don't take chances with dog aggression and I want Minka to exercise with me so she can learn and bond while burning off her energy.


----------



## TheVintageAngel (Oct 4, 2011)

Thank you, your advice has been great - appreciate you taking the time.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I second everything that JanaeUlvae said - and you have a good feel for what is right for your pup. Glad that your trainer was able to help, the tethering is great advice, but as JU said, you shouldn't have to ever worry about turning your back on your own dog. 

Even just going out for 10 - 15 minutes of play and fun exercise will go a long way to help settle Jemma down when she has too much energy for her own good. Four month old pups can dog a lot, and most people under-exercise them. You did the right thing with grabbing a toy and playing tug with her - what she will learn is that the fun way to play with you is with a toy, and eventually she will be bringing you toys and pushing them into your hands, or dropping them in your lap as a signal to play.

Also, puppies, like toddlers, can get over-tired and show the same kind of hyper, crazy, temper-tantrum type of behaviour. That is a signal that they may need some crate time and take a nap.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

i third the above advice, including finding a new trainer who understands dogs! Cold weather and especially snow is the BEST for exercising dogs. I take mine out for 2 hour off leash walks in the snow and he is worn out when we come home...until it's time to go out again! :laugh:


----------



## TheVintageAngel (Oct 4, 2011)

Thank you all for the great advice! This evening, she did something similar again and this time I initiated an epic game of tug and fetch with her favorite inside ball toy. She played like crazy and I really felt like we were bonding...I even pulled her on my lap on her back and she layed there for a while just chewing on her ball. I knew she was tired out because she hadn't had a nap all afternoon and had a lot of outdoor time earlier. She started biting my son's pant legs and getting that "I'm gonna be a terrorist" look on her face...so I put her calmly in her crate. She was sound asleep within minutes...so I think this was just what you said about the over-tired temper tantrum....now I know what to look for. Will start adding more exercise in too...I think there really never could be *enough*....but we are gonna do our best.


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

It sounds like you are doing everything right.  She's going to be an awesome dog.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I also have a 4 month old, and here's the routine we work on:
1-1.5 hours leashed walk in the morning with 10-15 minutes of tug play worked in
1-1.5 hour leashed walk in the afternoon with similar tug play
30 minutes-1 hour of tug play, street watching, and potty break before bed time

She is relatively calm between those times. If she's going for my feet, or going for my belongings instead of her toys, I take her outside to vent some energy.

Some days, she's so tired she acts up before we hit home...my pant legs suffer in those circumstances too.


----------



## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

TheVintageAngel said:


> Thank you all for the great advice! This evening, she did something similar again and this time I initiated an epic game of tug and fetch with her favorite inside ball toy. She played like crazy and I really felt like we were bonding...I even pulled her on my lap on her back and she layed there for a while just chewing on her ball. I knew she was tired out because she hadn't had a nap all afternoon and had a lot of outdoor time earlier. She started biting my son's pant legs and getting that "I'm gonna be a terrorist" look on her face...so I put her calmly in her crate. She was sound asleep within minutes...so I think this was just what you said about the over-tired temper tantrum....now I know what to look for. Will start adding more exercise in too...I think there really never could be *enough*....but we are gonna do our best.


Cool outcome to this thread! Nice


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Just to add an idea to wear her out a bit -- a flirt pole! Someone here recommended that to me, (sorry I can't give the proper credit,) and wow, oh wow. When we're a little short on outdoor exercise time, I bust out the flirt pole. Awesome exercise and training opportunity, too!


----------



## Brody's Mom (Jan 20, 2012)

*Aggressive to Me not Husband*

Hi
We recently (about 6 wks ago) took in a 3 1/2 yr old unneutered male that had been left behind when previous owners moved. A friend of mine fostered him (few months) until she found him a home (about 3 months) with a younger couple, that didn't work out and we took him. He lays down on the floor when you raise your voice leading me to believe he wasn't treated right. When we took him my friend said he "is a womans dog" Well, he took right to my husband, follows him everywhere, crawls on his lap, etc. 
He has shown shown his teeth, growled and raised his hackles to ME twice. The first time was when we were playing with his ball (a week after we got him) and I tried to take it from him, the second was yesterday when my 13yr old son wanted me to look at the webbing in his feet. My son was holding his foot out looking at it and when I took his foot he started growling. He continues to growl for several minutes, even if I or he walks away. I don't back down when he does, SHOULD I? I don't know if it's cuz his previous owners were women and abusive to him, or if it's a dominance thing. He DID do it to my son at the same time he did to me with the ball. But hasn't since then towards him. He's home almost all day with me and we have had no other problems. I read in another post that being too nice might be causing it? When my husband won't pet him he comes to me and pushes me with his nose and I always pet him, should I? I want to nip this in the bud now, if possible!
Thanks, Rachelle
P.S. we have a Yorkie & Chihuahua that he gets along fine with


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Brody's mom I really suggest starting your own thread on this so you can get better suggestions! Definitely different advice for this one then what the OP would need.

To the OP" You got some great advice on this (of course) I really REALLY do not like doing physical corrections on a pup this age I just think it's unnecessary and takes away from them as they get older. Kind of like spanking a 18 month old instead of a verbal no no then when they do something really wrong later and they don't care because they already are used to it so they don't get the importance of it and how bad what they did was. 

You are right in the fact there really isn't ever enough physical exercise they can keep going and going and going. You might where them out where they come home and crash for a nice nap however then they are ready to go again. A really nice obedience session works wonders for tiring them back out. You work that puppy brain and your pup will crash plus it's great for bonding and of course teaching them everything they need to know. However forcing them to do it and the corrections is such a pain and you really lose something in the session. Grab out a toy or treats (whichever yours likes better) and start training, do not correct a mistake just wait for the pup to offer the correct behavior then reward like crazy. If you're pup knows how to sit and you say sit and he doesn't just ignore it and wait eventually you will see those wheels start turning to figure out what it was you wanted and then learning becomes fun. Kind of like loading homework up on a kindergartner that you would do for a high schooler obviously not the same thing. In high school they give the work and force them to do it or there are consequences in kindergarten there really aren't consequences however they get special stickers or little prizes for the right answer etc.. How does a teacher get all those little hands to come up? BY REWARDING they are all eager to learn because they know if they figure out the answer quicker then the kid next to them they will get big praise or a sticker or piece of candy so then they start actually learning and figuring out answers on their own because they want that prize. Does it mean their entire lives they get prizes? of course not but it's a way to start learning.

Sorry I know a bit of a tangent there but so many "trainers" are completely against positive training with treats and toys because they believe the dog works for the reward and not the handler and you won't always have a treat with you etc.. so just a really good analogy to think about.


----------



## Brody's Mom (Jan 20, 2012)

I don't know how to start a new thread! hahaha Help please!


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Brody's Mom said:


> I don't know how to start a new thread! hahaha Help please!


Go to the forum that you want to start your thread in. Under the black menu bar, right over the brown "Threads in this Forum" bar, on the left side of your screen, is a "New Thread" button. Click on that and start typing away.


----------



## Brody's Mom (Jan 20, 2012)

Thank you!


----------



## ILOVEGSD (Oct 22, 2011)

TheVintageAngel said:


> I put "challenges" in quotes because I'm not 100% sure that is what it is...but it sure feels like it.
> 
> Jemma is now 4.5 months old. The out of control land shark biting and nipping is slowing down considerably...but something happens once or twice a day that is bothering me. I wanted to ask if this is normal behavior, or if it could form into aggressive behavior in the future?
> 
> ...


I am by no means a trainer, nor do I really have much experience to offer, but couldn't you distract her from the rolling into you and then have her do something like sit and then play with her with the toy. This way you are not reenforcing the unwanted behavior and you're not correcting her. The behavior you reward is the sitting and she gets what she wants, etc??


----------

