# protection



## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

Hello all, When is it normal for a german shepherd to show protectiveness for his owner? i have a nine month old male and we went to the mountains for a little R&R. We were headed out to a flea market in a little town in the sierras in central california any way as we approch the traffic and everyone is pulling off and parking i stop and wait while the car in front of me parks as i am waiting a sheriff deputy walks over to me on the drivers side of my truck as he gets close to my window Duke jumps from behind me and barks and snaps at the deputy showing teeth scared the deputy to death he jump like five feet in the air and me because he was right behind my ear and head . he was so quite and calm up intill then . he wound not stop till i pulled away for the deputy. is that normal for such a young pup to show such protective behavior?


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I think it is normal. Mac is 8 months old and is very protective of me, our house and our yard. 

He's a gorgeous dog by the way


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

At 8 or 9 months your puppy is reacting out of fear and not being protective. The protective instinct doesn't kick in to at least 2 or 3 years if it ever kicks in. Not all gsd's are protective... some are just big puppies forever.

I can almost guarantee that at 9 months, your puppy is reacting like that to protect itself and has nothing to do with protecting you.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> The protective instinct doesn't kick in to at least 2 or 3 years if it ever kicks in.


I am a SchH Helper/Trainer and this has not been my experience.



Lucy Dog said:


> Not all gsd's are protective... some are just big puppies forever.


 I would suggest that depends more on the line of GSD and even the particular dog. GSDs should be aloof, watchful and protective...they are working dogs.

dukethegsd, your dog sounds like he has deep and profound issues, such that you should immediately crate him and send him to me! I would be happy to take that fearful dog off your hands if he is motivated to bark at an approaching stranger that way!:wub:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

How is he usually when you meet new people? Friendly or barking at them say if you are out walking him? Could be he just was startled or maybe didn't like the hat or uniform?


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> I would suggest that depends more on the line of GSD and even the particular dog. GSDs should be aloof, watchful and protective...they are working dogs.


I have to say the same, but I would like to hear how he reacts to others that he meets


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

W.Oliver said:


> I am a SchH Helper/Trainer and this has not been my experience.


Schutzhund and the natural instinct to protect it's owner are two different things. I think of schutzhund as more of a training process that is taught to the dog using their natural traits. 

I was referring to more of the amateur pet dog owner expecting their dog to protect them without any kind of training.



W.Oliver said:


> I would suggest that depends more on the line of GSD and even the particular dog. GSDs should be aloof, watchful and protective...they are working dogs.


True, but this isn't always the case. Especially in a world where not everyone owns GSD's from distinct lines. There are so many mixes of working and showlines these days, there are so many different personalities. I understand what the standard calls for, but I also know a lot of dogs that are nothing like the description in the standard. 




W.Oliver said:


> dukethegsd, your dog sounds like he has deep and profound issues, such that you should immediately crate him and send him to me! I would be happy to take that fearful dog off your hands if he is motivated to bark at an approaching stranger that way!:wub:


The dog has fear issues. This is most likely not protection unless the dog is trying to protect itself. This dog needs more socialization and training or it can possibly become a liability if it gets any worse. 

A well socialized puppy should not be going off and snarling and lunging at random strangers who are not a threat. What happens when that 8 month old puppy turns into a 4 year old doing the same thing to random strangers walking down the street? What happens when that one day where the owner loses control of their lunging dog and the dog bites someone? Lawsuit time.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

There are dogs that have a certain degree of natural suspicion and in some lines/dogs that manifests earlier, and while that ties in very slightly to fear it's not really the same thing as fear aggression. (Consider that the dog that has NO fear, perceives no threat) A naturally suspicious dog is more keyed into changes in it's environment and the situation the OP mentioned probably isn't a regular situation that the dog would have encountered. 

If the dog is an otherwise well socialized dog that showed an unusual behavior I really wouldn't panic about fear aggression. And I wouldn't necessarily label it protection of the person either. Rather I think what you could call it would be an aggressive forward response to an unanticipated, unusual event. And generally that kind of response is desired in a protection dog...


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

My pup is 9 months old and he barks at people approaching the car. He is friendly and confident with people when out and He started doing this (and barking at people coming onto the property) about 2 months ago. I don't see any fear aggression in him..he is friendly once I have told him to be quiet. He is from strong working lines and my other shepherd is 2 and doesn't bark at people coming in so I think each dog is different.

Beautiful pup btw!!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I just don't see how a 8 or 9 month old pup can possibly be protective. Their minds are just so young at that point in their life, I just can't see how their protective instinct can possibly kick in when their minds are so immature. 

To me, it's like asking a 5 year old child to protect you. If a 5 year old child lashes out at a suspicious adult, is he or she being protective of their mother or father? Of course not - no one would even question it. Even though their bodies look like adults, that's how mature the mind of a 8 month old puppy actually is.

I think people want their dogs to be protective of them, so when a puppy starts growling or lunging at an unknown, people just automatically think their dog is being protective of them because that's what they want. 

I just find it extremely hard to believe that the mind of a 8 month old puppy can possibly think it has to protect its owner from something. Of course, this is assuming this puppy has had absolutely no kind of schutzhund or personal protection training either. I'm talking your normal, everyday, GSD pet puppy.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

wolfspirit said:


> My pup is 9 months old and he barks at people approaching the car. He is friendly and confident with people when out and He started doing this (and barking at people coming onto the property) about 2 months ago. I don't see any fear aggression in him..he is friendly once I have told him to be quiet. He is from strong working lines and my other shepherd is 2 and doesn't bark at people coming in so I think each dog is different.
> 
> Beautiful pup btw!!


Sounds like possible resource guarding. How is he with other dogs when theres food around? Does he growl or anything? Can you take his food bowl away from him in the middle of a meal?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I wouldn't necessarily label this as a "fear response". Many dogs are possessive of their 'vehicles', like they can be of their crate space. 

I also agree with JK, re: suspicion in some lines that can show up at an early age.

I have a "suspicious" always on "alert" girl, She will sit in my vehicle all day if I let her, you won't hear a peep out of her, but if a stranger opened the door or started messing with the car, you can bet she's going off on them.

Example this very morning, went to the convenience store with her and the aussie in tow. They sat in the car, all the windows 1/2 down, sunroof open,,I got out, started talking to a guy I know, not a peep out of the dogs, just watching, I got back in, a different guy approached my car talking, she stuck her head out the window and gave him a WOOF, as in "YOU SEE WHO"S IN THIS CAR RIGHT?" I said "leave it", she's quiet but watchful. 

Maybe not to the extent of the OP's. (she is 2 years old and knows what leave it means but letting a stranger know she knows what's going on


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

Well we went in to the flea market and he was fine no barking and about 20 people aproached us to pet him and he was good he just sat next to me with his ears up. He sleeps with us never has he tryed to bit. He is from Czech lines.


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

No he doesn't growl if you take his food, also my brothers Jack Russell always eats his food he shares.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Sounds like possible resource guarding. How is he with other dogs when theres food around? Does he growl or anything? Can you take his food bowl away from him in the middle of a meal?


No resource guarding issues.  He would let anyone take his food or toys, likewise no issued with dogs taking his toys or eating near them. He is a very happy confident boy, he just barks at strangers approaching the house or car. He doesn't bark at them if they approach with me. But even barking, if I tell him to be quiet the person can then pet him through the car window. I don't have any worries with his temperament, I think some dogs just develop guarding behaviour early and some not at all..


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

btw wanted to say he's gorgeous


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> Schutzhund and the natural instinct to protect it's owner are two different things. I think of schutzhund as more of a training process that is taught to the dog using their natural traits.


 Natural instinct or genetics are the basis of a good GSD, and SchH is the nurture that refines the talents of a good GSD through training.



Lucy Dog said:


> I was referring to more of the amateur pet dog owner expecting their dog to protect them without any kind of training.


 It sounds to me you are accustomed to non-working dogs with lower drive that make wonderful companion dogs, but have little relation to a Czech working line that will bark if someone approches the vehicle or the home. 



Lucy Dog said:


> A well socialized puppy should not be going off and snarling and lunging at random strangers who are not a threat. What happens when that 8 month old puppy turns into a 4 year old doing the same thing to random strangers walking down the street? What happens when that one day where the owner loses control of their lunging dog and the dog bites someone? Lawsuit time.


 The stranger was not random, the stranger approached the vehicle, and I would be extremely pleased if my dog barked. On the other hand, if I am walking down the street at noon....the dog should pass non-threatening stranger after stranger without incident. At midnight, if some approaches suddenly from the shadows, barking and lunging is what a real GSD should be doing....if your dogs acts more like a lab or golden...then it is one of those mixed line specimens you were discussing, but not a GSD as developed/characterized by Capt. Max.



Lucy Dog said:


> A well socialized puppy should not be going off and snarling and lunging at random strangers who are not a threat. What happens when that 8 month old puppy turns into a 4 year old doing the same thing to random strangers walking down the street? What happens when that one day where the owner loses control of their lunging dog and the dog bites someone? Lawsuit time.


 My WGxCzech dog will react the same way dukethegsd's dog did...she is trained is SchH, and is a Therapy Dog that visits nursing homes and hospitals. A well rounded, well trained GSD should and can do it all.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

JakodaCD OA said:


> btw wanted to say he's gorgeous


 Totally agree and would enjoy more photos!!!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

How about a male 2 1/2 yo GSD who usually wants to go up to see and lets them pet him some and then moves along when we are walking. or if we go into a feed and animal supply store wants to visit most of the people in the store that see him (and i let him if they agree). And yet he has barked at a few folks and acts very protective in the house and back yard when he hears any strange noises, etc. Hasn't acted afraid of anything since his little bitty puppy days.

one thing I noticed with him and strangers also - the vast majority of people can pet him anywhere including all over his head but in a very very few instances he will move his head so they can't pet him on the top of his head. He won't back away or anything just won't let him pet him there.

There has also been a couple of instances of when we were in a local park where he actually barked at an individual or two on a couple of instances - both cases (separate days) when they had said "Pretty dog" and were coming over to us to see him. both also looked a little "seedy" sort of.

BTW, he is a total American show lines dog from one of the top show lines kennels in the US. AND the litter brother and sister (only two of the 8 puppies in his litter that we have ever seen) had totally different temperaments much more like a typical show GSD softer, etc.

He is also very hard with corrections - he takes them, (verbal or leash), listens but never collapses from them.

Thoughts? We think his temperament must be one that slipped through from a number of generations ago! Heh! Heh!

Or else we just have done a terrific job in raising him!!!!!!!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

From your other posts he sounds pretty balanced, maybe he was just startled? 
I would expect him to bark if someone approached the car, but I might be concerned that he didn't recover until you moved him from the area. What was your response to Duke when this was happening? Just curious.

Barbara
Tolland, CT


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## cristofa (Aug 8, 2010)

german shepherds dont start protecting their owner until over a year of trust and leadership, they experement while they are pups, they try their luck and learn. as long as you be nice to your dog and train it manners, they love to learn and they give you respect. If you be good to them they will be good back they are VERY greatful dogs. If you miss treat it they will get a habit of protecting theirselfs and will not give a **** about you.


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## cristofa (Aug 8, 2010)

german shepherds seem to not like violence when something kicks off


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

to white shepherd: I had him platz it took me more than once but he did and that was it at that point we were pulling away anyway. 

to W.Oliver: when you mentioned the part about shadows it remined me of another instance when i was walking Duke at night and we were waiting for the light to change at a cross walk a homeless man walk up behind us i didn't even realize but Duke did and started barking at him i then turned and the homeless man took a few steps back said sorry i don't want no trouble and ran in the opposite direction. From everyones comments i think Duke is pretty normal and i have nothing to worry about. i am going to look into the sch H training sounds like a good way to go.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I just don't see how a 8 or 9 month old pup can possibly be protective. Their minds are just so young at that point in their life, I just can't see how their protective instinct can possibly kick in when their minds are so immature.
> 
> To me, it's like asking a 5 year old child to protect you. If a 5 year old child lashes out at a suspicious adult, is he or she being protective of their mother or father? Of course not - no one would even question it. Even though their bodies look like adults, that's how mature the mind of a 8 month old puppy actually is.
> 
> ...


There is a big difference between children and dogs or puppies. It's nothing the same. At all. Dogs develop much quicker than kids do, both physically and mentally. 

And I don't think ANY of this has to do with _protection, _but alerting and understanding when something is wrong and having their owner's back, instead. I know some much more mature GSD would undoubtedly bite someone messing with their human, but at this age, and even as adults for many GSD, it's an "alert/hey something's wrong thing", not an "I'm gonna eat them they're bad" thing. 

My GSD did the same thing starting around 8 months. Cop pulls us over and walks up to the car univited? He will bark, growl, and stand up in the backseat. Someone strange walks into the yard? Same. If I'm talking to someone through the window of the car, he's fine even if they approach, and all I have to say is "It's alright Frag" and he lays down with a sigh. He's letting me know something's up, and I'm lettin him know that I know. I fully encourage him to bark at people in shadows at night or coming near us at night, but I can stop him if I need to. If I feel funny about it, I let him keep going. The longer he does it, the worse he sounds, so it works out in our favor. 



Lucy Dog said:


> Sounds like possible resource guarding. How is he with other dogs when theres food around? Does he growl or anything? Can you take his food bowl away from him in the middle of a meal?


I know you weren't talking to me, but since my dog is the same way, I figured I'd answer this as well. My dog has ZERO resource guarding issues. I can take bully sticks, pork neck bones, his bowl of dry food, wet food, or supplemented food, and any toy from him without an issue. Other _dogs _can also take all of this away from him without a peep. Any other dog or person can get into the car with him there with no issue. This isn't resource guarding, it's pups growing up.



W.Oliver said:


> It sounds to me you are accustomed to non-working dogs with lower drive that make wonderful companion dogs, but have little relation to a Czech working line that will bark if someone approches the vehicle or the home.
> 
> The stranger was not random, the stranger approached the vehicle, and I would be extremely pleased if my dog barked. On the other hand, if I am walking down the street at noon....the dog should pass non-threatening stranger after stranger without incident. At midnight, if some approaches suddenly from the shadows, barking and lunging is what a real GSD should be doing....if your dogs acts more like a lab or golden...then it is one of those mixed line specimens you were discussing, but not a GSD as developed/characterized by Capt. Max.
> 
> My WGxCzech dog will react the same way dukethegsd's dog did...she is trained is SchH, and is a Therapy Dog that visits nursing homes and hospitals. A well rounded, well trained GSD should and can do it all.


:thumbup: Great post, Oliver. I agree 100%


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

As much as I hate to admit it, I also agree with Wayne.oke:

I think it is difficult to tell just from two instances if your dog is fear aggressive, but he acted exactly like I would want him to if he were my pup. A GSD should be suspicious especially if the owner is uncomfortable. If you think about it, a police officer approaching the car is going to make any driver nervous. The dog should pick up on that and react accordingly.
He also should react that way with someone coming up behind you acting suspiciously.


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## benyboy (Sep 27, 2010)

I have a question regarding this same subject. I have two gsd. One is a female around 1 1/2 years. For your info we do some formal OB and we are begining some protection/biting work. She is pretty good at it.

My dog sleeps at its kennel next to the entrance of the house. Last weekend my daughter went to a party and she planned to arrive home around midnight (everybody is sleeping by that hour). So I wondered if my dog would react (or at least bark) when she heard someone approaching and entering the house at that hour. But no. Nothing at all. 

Is she still young?
Does she doesn't care at all who can enter at that hour?
Can it possible be that my dog "knew" it was my daughter opening the door?

Sorry if it sounds like a siilly question, but actually I can't think of a better place to ask.

thanks


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

My dogs know if it's me coming into the house. I actually think they know the sound of the cars coming into the driveway. They never bark at me, but when I'm home and someone strange comes to the door, they tend to go on alert.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Let me ask this...

Was the deputy wearing something that was new to Duke? A hat? Pulled low? Did he do this to anyone else there? Was the deputy acting tense? Was he staring at Duke?

Obviously it is not a common occurrence or you would have said something about it and you wouldn't be shocked by his behavior now. I highly doubt this was protecting you. It sounds more like he reacted to something. That doesn't mean he has terrible issues. 

but I'll agree with Wayne...you can send him to me too!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> At 8 or 9 months your puppy is reacting out of fear and not being protective. The protective instinct doesn't kick in to at least 2 or 3 years if it ever kicks in. Not all gsd's are protective... some are just big puppies forever.I can almost guarantee that at 9 months, your puppy is reacting like that to protect itself and has nothing to do with protecting you.


Lucy, you come up with a very common theme when a GSD (or other dog for that matter) does something - "the dog is acting out of fear".

I wonder if that is really the case in all dogs who bark or lunge at a person or other dog.

As far as GSD's at 8/9 months old - I really don't believe it is always fear. I had a 9 month old male GSD out of top German imported who was the star actor at a Sch training club when I lived in Delaware. that dog had absolutely no fear whatsoever ever since he was a little puppy. He was rushed by an adult dog once on a walk when he was about 4 months old and stood his ground in front of me like a full grown dog. (Till I jumped in front of him and shooed the other dog away) But he was ready to throw his little furry body into a fight with that other big dog. And if you saw him you would have seen that he was most definetly not acting out of fear! Stupidity, maybe but not fear!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> There are dogs that have a certain degree of natural suspicion and in some lines/dogs that manifests earlier, and while that ties in very slightly to fear it's not really the same thing as fear aggression. (Consider that the dog that has NO fear, perceives no threat) A naturally suspicious dog is more keyed into changes in it's environment and the situation the OP mentioned probably isn't a regular situation that the dog would have encountered.
> 
> If the dog is an otherwise well socialized dog that showed an unusual behavior I really wouldn't panic about fear aggression. And I wouldn't necessarily label it protection of the person either. Rather I think what you could call it would be an aggressive forward response to an unanticipated, unusual event. And generally that kind of response is desired in a protection dog...


Very interesting approach to GSD behavior. Makes sense!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

At 8 or 9 months most pups cannot decipher whether the "threat" is real so will react...it is a reflex action and sure they may fight, but it isn't because they are confident and sure, the situation demanded them to react this way. Most young dogs aren't mature enough to assess the situation so will reflexively react. I think GSD's are always on patrol. 
And to benyboy, most dogs can scent who is around them before they even hear them. 
So your dog probably didn't react because he knew exactly who was arriving. 
My dogs also can tell whose vehicle is whose, so can the neighbors dog. Its funny to hear the neighbor dog bark when his family comes home( 4 different vehicles, but the dog can tell)!


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