# Really Upset!!



## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

Hi Everyone, I am so upset.. Today our dog Nieko bit my daughter. I never in all my life would have thought he was capable of doing such a thing.. Not only did he bite her, but then she ran to get away from him and he ran after her a bit her again. I had to pull his mouth off her. I am just devestated. I know he has been alittle stressed because of the new piglet, but there is no excuse. This is a very sad situation I love him to death, but how can I trust him? What if I wasn't home to grab him? Please what do I do??
Roe:help:


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I have no advice, it's way out of my league...but wondered if the piglet was anywhere near the dog or your daughter when this happened?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

This is all your responsibility, and I mean that in a GOOD way.

You need to continue to TRAIN and socialize your GSD so you know he will listen and obey and be comfortable around children. DOG CLASSES!!!

You need to NEVER leave your dog/child alone together or in a situation that your dog will grab your child. Baby gates, crates, the TRAINING I mentioned earlier.

Teaching your child to respect dogs and leave them alone. Both children AND dogs can learn the 'leave it' command. Since you will now be there 100A% of the time to supervise and manage the situation, as the calm leader, there should be more calm.

Was it a bite with stitches? Or more of a grab and hold? 

EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE!!! Get your dog out of the house and with miles of running and exercising and playing with dog friends to relieve stress and make Nieko calmer when he's home.

Training. Socialization. Exercise. Managing the situation. Teaching both dog AND child......

*And if adding a piglet to your home is too much right now, then it just is. Last in, first out is the rule in my home if there is a situation when adding a new pet. It's not the 'older' pets fault, they didn't ask for the new addition. And if I didn't properly train/socialize/prepare for the new pet then it is MY fault and I deal with it my rehoming the newest addition.*


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

Yes, actually the piglet was in the cage next to them, Nieko doesn't leave the piglet alone so they were yelling at him to leave it alone..


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

rosey516 said:


> Yes, actually the piglet was in the cage next to them, Nieko doesn't leave the piglet alone so they were yelling at him to leave it alone..


Was he trying to get your daughter to move away from the piglet...as if he was guarding it, or does he try to hurt it? 

Does the piglet have a name?


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

Nieko is 6 years old, he was obedience trained with me when he was young. My daughter is 19 he never saw her as dominent cause she was always a little afraid of him. They are like brother and sister.. I had to stop the training because he has bad discs in his neck and cant wear a collar. He also has epilepsy very mild and under control. He is my best friend and always so lovable. I just dont understand. I am really sick about it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

rosey516 said:


> Nieko is 6 years old, he was obedience trained with me when he was young. My daughter is 19 he never saw her as dominent cause she was always a little afraid of him. They are like brother and sister.. I had to stop the training because he has bad discs in his neck and cant wear a collar. He also has epilepsy very mild and under control. He is my best friend and always so lovable. I just dont understand. I am really sick about it.


Get rid of the piglet.



> My daughter is 19 he never saw her as dominent cause she was always a little afraid of him.


Too bad you allowed your daughter to be afraid for the past 6 yrs. That's a dynamic that could have been changed long ago.


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

It was more of a grab that punctured her arm with no warning, not even a growl, then when he ran after her he grabbed the other arm and punctured it also her leg. when I grabbed him after I got him to let go I threw him on his back and he then growled at me, so I yelled and held him down until he stopped and calmed down. Then I made them take the pig upstairs and put Nieko in the cage.. Then we went to hospital..


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

I tried to get her not to give in to him, whenever he played rough with her she backed off instead of putting him in his place I used to intervien all the time but I am not there always and she has to put her food down on her own..I always felt like I was yelling at two babies fighting.. By the way the pigs name is Bobo, he will be staying in my sons apartment for now thats for sure...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If he's never acted like this before you can almost bet it has something to do with the piglet. 
Do he guard his toys or food?

Hope your daughter is okay btw.


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

I do blame myself, I should have seen it coming. He has been to nervous with the piglet. But can I trust him with her again? Do you think once he bit her he will do it again? I am really sick about this...


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

He lets our little maltese take food from his mouth, he has never been agressive thats why I am in shock.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

If your daughter does something stupid like yell at him when he's obsessing over something so strongly again I'm sure he could bite her. And the running away was not a bright idea either. 

Train the dog and hope animal control doesn't show up at your door. I don't know what your laws are like for dog bites there. 

Also, what do you mean by stating that you've been trying to get your daughter to put him in his place... how do you put him in his place?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Sounds like you have a stressed dog on your hands.

I would say if this behaviour is out of the ordinary then 3 things should be done:

1. Vet visit to ensure it is nothing physcially wrong with your dog (full blood panel and I would also re-check his other injuries and med's).

2. Piglet needs to find somewhere else to stay.

3. One-on-one training with your daughter. He needs to understand that he must respect your daughter, this can come from fun play sessions/training sessions together. Have your daughter play ball with him but make him sit, or down, or stand or whatever before he gets the ball. NILIF must be worked by all members of the family, your daughter especially.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> If your daughter does something stupid like yell at him when he's obsessing over something so strongly again I'm sure he could bite her. And the running away was not a bright idea either.
> 
> Train the dog and hope animal control doesn't show up at your door. I don't know what your laws are like for dog bites there.
> 
> Also, what do you mean by stating that you've been trying to get your daughter to put him in his place... how do you put him in his place?





> when I grabbed him after I got him to let go I threw him on his back and he then growled at me, so I yelled and held him down until he stopped and calmed down.


 I'm guessing something like this???


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I am not an expert at this but I can tell you it sounds like the your dog has been alone for 6 yrs and that probably how he wants it to stay. I am having crazy and erratic behavior from my almost 2 yr. old male shepherd because we added a female shepherd in Sept. He has went crazy and we now can't trust him out in our own yard. Your problem is more severe than mine but I am just letting you know the behavior is probably because of the new addition. My dog is obedient trained and did not give me problems when he was the only one. He started this about a month ago and we know it is from adding her to his environment. All dogs react differently to stress and I believe this is how your dog is reacting to your new addition. Ours now has severe separation anxiety and can't be left alone at all without supervision. He tries to jump on our vehicles, charging at our other dogs,has became more aggressive with visitors, digging holes right in front of us. So I know how frustrated you are at this. I will keep a tab on your thread because we are in the same boat as you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your dog has epilepsy and some disk problem in his neck? 

Ok, maybe he growled at you when you threw him on his back because he was afraid that you would hurt him.

Not sure. 

But, with an epileptic dog, you want to remove any unnecessary stressors that might trigger a siezure. Get rid of the pig. Keep it completely out of there. It does not fit into the family dynamic.

I agree with classes. if you cannot wear a collar use a harness. But obedience training and making sure the daughter is part of it is a must.

I do not think less of your daughter for running away. People who are afraid of dogs will try to save themselves. The pig did heighten stuff. 

Now I am not sure if the dog wanted to aggress toward the pig and misplaced his aggression on the daughter, or was guarding the pig as his owne and bit the daughter. Either way, it sounds like leadership needs to be improved, and removing the pig from the situation is a must.

you mention your son's appartment. I hope that is not all on the same property. 

Good luck.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I just wanted to add in that you need to teach your daughter NEVER to run away from a dog. Dogs are preditors. Things that run are prey. This could have prevented the second bite, no doubt.

Secondly, I just want to say that this is the exact reason I DO NOT believe in alpha rolling. When you throw your dog on his back the ONLY lesson it teaches the dog is that he has to fight harder to dominate YOU.

And I'm not even going to go into how STUPID it is to throw a dog with an injured disc on it's back.

Get rid of the pig and if the aggression continues, get a thyroid check. An off thyroid CAN cause sudden aggression problems. Get into training classes with the dog and have you AND your daughter handle him. To gain more respect from her, have her feed him.

I hope your daughter is ok and that she can recover from the emotional damage done.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

_'Yes, actually the piglet was in the *cage* next to them, Nieko doesn't leave the piglet alone so they were yelling at him to leave it alone.'_

_'I made them take the pig upstairs and put Nieko in the* cage*..'_

Is this one in the same 'cage'? If so, it can't be a good idea to let the piglet stay in Nieko's crate or vice versa.


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> _'Yes, actually the piglet was in the *cage* next to them, Nieko doesn't leave the piglet alone so they were yelling at him to leave it alone.'_
> 
> _'I made them take the pig upstairs and put Nieko in the* cage*..'_
> 
> Is this one in the same 'cage'? If so, it can't be a good idea to let the piglet stay in Nieko's crate or vice versa.


If that's the case I would think Nieko would be acting like that just then because the pig that he does not like was in his den, and then possibly acted out to your daughter because he was upset she was correcting for for defending _his_ space????


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

First of all I want to truly thank everyone for your help and advice. I can see you really understand how I feel.Well I guess I made alot of mistakes, I wish I could do it over.. I have just been so stressed i should have realized when Nieko kept taking everything I gave the pig (toys,blankets etc..) When we got out little Maltese, Bella nieko loved her right away no problem. Obviously the pig will remain with my sons. We do live in the same house, they have thier ownnplace upstairs..when I say I try to tell my daughter tomput him in his place,I mean just to let him know he can not play rough with her, and she shouldnnot let him intimidate her. I would never hurt Nieko, and I am not strong enough. When I say throwing him on his back it meand holding him down until he calms down, and yes with some force. He is over 100 lbs. You never know how you will react until a situation arises. Its my fault I havent been consistant with him for a while, hes been getting away with a lot. But now my daughter is scared and I hope he wont pick that up. I have to say he is a completely differnt dog since the piglet is upstairs. I love Nieko dearly he is my best pal and my shadow, just the thought that I would ever have to give him up makes me sick!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

This could have been a redirected sort of aggression too. Nieko has been building up all this frustration (stress) towards something he can't get to (Pig which is also a stressor as a new addition to the house), then the added the stress of being yelled at, trying to be shooed away from what he is obsessing over and the fact that this dog is likely in some pain (disc injury? more stress) and you have a dog who is likely to go over his bite threshold. Your flipping him on his back just added more stress and to be honest, you are lucky he didn't bite you too. Your daughter is smart not to be willing to "punish" your dog like this.

This article can explain a bit more about bite thresholds:
"All dogs, whether they are defined by owners or behavior professionals as “reactive,” “aggressive,” and yes, even “friendly” can and will bite. A service dog or therapy dog can and will bite. The goofiest dog you’ve ever seen can and will bite. The dog that allows young children to climb all over him and pull his ears or tail with seeming aplomb can and will bite.
Bites are usually caused by an accumulation of stressors. Each time a dog is exposed to a stressor, stress hormones are dumped into the brain. These stress hormones are like the puzzle pieces in Tetris. They build up over time. You have to actively reduce the stress (like a Tetris player clearing lines) through management, desensitization, counter conditioning, and general stress reduction techniques. If you are not taking steps to reduce the stress, it begins to accumulate. The dumping of stress hormones into the brain leaves the dog increasingly sensitized to stressors, which replicates the puzzle pieces dropping faster and faster until you eventually reach the threshold. Soon, the dog bites. The game is over.
Stressors vary in individual dogs. One dog may be stressed by loud noises, nail trimming, men with beards, wearing a shock collar, foul weather, and a bad diet. Another dog may not seemingly respond to these factors but is sensitive to visits to the vet’s office, small children, cats, people that smell like beer, dogs walking past the fenced in yard, and people approaching or entering the home. Every dog has stressors (commonly called “triggers”) and a big part of effective behavioral modification strategies is identifying these as accurately and thoroughly as possible, which allows behavior consultants and handlers to focus their efforts most efficiently. Stressors, like Tetris pieces, accumulate over time." How Are Dog Bites Like Tetris?


And these explain why you shouldn't be flipping your dog on his back to "show him who's boss":

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You do need to take action but not in the way that you seem to feel is appropriate (alpha rolling). I would suggest the Ruff Love program for Nieko and that everyone in the family participate in it: Welcome to Dogwise.com

I would also suggest that you will probably need to rehome the pig. Your dog may have too much prey drive to happily live with a prey animal in the house. Also it does seem that the pig played a major roll in Nieko going over his bite threshold. Since the pig is just a baby rehoming should be easier. There are also rescues for pet pigs, just like their are for dogs. That might be your best bet for ensuring the pig finds a happy and appropriate home, since they are often "novelty pets" for people and are extremely difficult pets. This might help you find people in your area who can help you:
Pig Placement Network


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Rosey516

I don't have any input to help you with your situation, but I just wanted to say I hope everything works out for you and Nieko with a happy ending.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

> He lets our little maltese take food from his mouth, he has never been agressive thats why I am in shock.


The maltese is a small dog. I would imagine it acts like a dog so Neiko knows how to respond. 

Perhaps Neiko needs some non-dog four legged socialization before a non-dog pet is in the house.



> when I say I try to tell my daughter tomput him in his place,I mean just to let him know he can not play rough with her, and she shouldnnot let him intimidate her


She needs to bond with the dog. If she is "putting him in his place" she is setting up an alpha struggle. She should do discipline training with the dog so the dog will see her as a partner that is fun to play with in gentle way and so she will learn how to handle a dog with praise whenever possible.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Unless the piglet has more value than your daughter............get rid of it NOW. 

Because the real problem in your house is the RELATIONSHIP between your daughter and your dog. And that needs to be worked on in a positive way so she loses her fear and you dog learns to love and respect her but NOT cause of any alpha rolls that may be coming his way.

Exercise, fun, play, treats.... Have you been able to purchase and follow The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell? GREAT info that will help your entire family. 








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GET RID OF THE PIGLET and help your daughter and dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I second MRL here! First, your daughter (and the rest of the family) then, the dog that considers your house his only home for the 6 years of his life and then... anything else. Pigs are not weird fat dogs, are a different specie and we cannot expect dogs to develope the same relatuonship with them as they do with other dogs (ex. your maltese, or poodle, I don't rememeber where you named it).

To have the piglet upstairs do not resolves the situation and doesn't help the pig. Best to take action now that Bobo is small, cute and adoptable than later, because sooner or later you will realize that no pig, not even a pet pig, can live forever on a second floor.

VAPP: Potbellied Pig Considerations


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

When my mother first brought King home, i was so scared of him- but i walked him and did training on my own and it really helped me to understand him, and i completely lost my fear of shepherds, and all dogs. I was always scared of all breeds of dogs, now i work at a boarding kennel and grooming shop. So, if she's comfortable get her to do training with him, or take him for a walk (with you there) so they can build their relationship and learn to trust eachother.
It worked for me, now I have my own girl and have NO fear of any dog at all. It did take 6 yrs for that to happen and for me to be completely confident though. I know nothing about dog bites but if your daughter and dog are going to live together for awhile, they really need to trust eachother.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

It sounds to me like there were a lot of things that lead to this--epilepsy, slipped disc (probably pent up energy due to not enough exercise if he has a slipped disc), not controlling play time with your daughter when he was younger...and now a new prey item he wants to be all over. 

I don't think there is any reason you can't work him still even though you can't have a collar on him--at least mentally. Harness? Learn to train without using leash/collar corrections? I often train in the backyard without a collar on. 

This was probably in the works for awhile...the pig just sent him over the edge. GSD's are prey driven to begin with....then add a lack of exercise and mental stimulation to the mix....add a little lack of respect for a family member or two...and you're asking for trouble.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> / How Are Dog Bites Like Tetris?
> 
> 
> And these explain why you shouldn't be flipping your dog on his back to "show him who's boss":
> ...



Thanks for some excellent information!


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## seyffertc (Sep 8, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> If your daughter does something stupid like yell at him when he's obsessing over something so strongly again I'm sure he could bite her. And the running away was not a bright idea either.
> 
> Train the dog and hope animal control doesn't show up at your door. I don't know what your laws are like for dog bites there.
> 
> Also, what do you mean by stating that you've been trying to get your daughter to put him in his place... how do you put him in his place?


Ya know i have read quite a bit on this thread and it seems as if you always have something negative ro rude to say please if you cant say something nice just dont type anything.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

seyffertc said:


> Ya know i have read quite a bit on this thread and it seems as if you always have something negative ro rude to say please if you cant say something nice just dont type anything.


I dont see anything wrong with what DJEtzel said. 

She has alot of good info and suggestions.


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## seyffertc (Sep 8, 2010)

its not really what she say but how first of all this woman is upset her best 4 legged friend has bit her beloved daughter and is distrought about it and here your blaming the daughter while it may have been a bad idea to yell at the dog when it is obsessing over something there is no need for that. the other posts had enough info to cover what was needed and none of them went so far to basically call the daughter "stupid" granted he didnt say she was stupid but her actions i got it but really not the place for it when mommy is heart broken and worried sick! and i have seen these type of unsensative remarks on many threads.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

seyffertc said:


> its not really what she say but how first of all this woman is upset her best 4 legged friend has bit her beloved daughter and is distrought about it and here your blaming the daughter while it may have been a bad idea to yell at the dog when it is obsessing over something there is no need for that. the other posts had enough info to cover what was needed and none of them went so far to basically call the daughter "stupid" granted he didnt say she was stupid but her actions i got it but really not the place for it when mommy is heart broken and worried sick! and i have seen these type of unsensative remarks on many threads.


She calls it like she sees it.

It's her opinion and everyone has the right to say what they want to say. She may have said it in a rude way (your opinion) but she's still allowed to say it.

EXAMPLE: She didn't say "Wow your daughter is an idiot and clearly doesn't know what she's doing." That is a rude and uncalled for comment. I dont think that her remark was offensive at all. :shrug:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I have to agree with LaRen. DJEtzel tends to be very blunt but her intentions are good. If you've been around long enough then you'd know that it's just the way she is.

You have the ability to just ignore it instead of calling her out and hijacking a thread. I, for one, am sick of seeing it all over this board.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> I have to agree with LaRen. DJEtzel tends to be very blunt but her intentions are good. If you've been around long enough then you'd know that it's just the way she is.
> 
> *You have the ability to just ignore it instead of calling her out and hijacking a thread. I, for one, am sick of seeing it all over this board*.


Thank you! I agree!

If you've got something to say then say it through PM.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> She calls it like she sees it.
> 
> It's her opinion and everyone has the right to say what they want to say. She may have said it in a rude way (your opinion) but she's still allowed to say it.
> 
> EXAMPLE: She didn't say "Wow your daughter is an idiot and clearly doesn't know what she's doing." That is a rude and uncalled for comment. I dont think that her remark was offensive at all. :shrug:



And I would imagine that people are allowed to call her on it too.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Why don't we just stick to the topic on hand instead of once again DJ and other posters getting into it? Seems like you all just feed off each other.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

rosey516: I am really sorry that this happened, I know it must be very upsetting. Do you have access to a professional trainer in your area that could help you with this?

Michaela


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

Hey you all have been such a big help, please dont argue with eachother..The bottom line is when I saw my dog whom I
adore attacking my daughter I just reacted without thinking.I am distraught.. I was watching them together today and I really dont like the way he looks at her..I am still frightened. I will make her walk him with me, I am going to have to start obedience all over.. I dont know how it will work with a harness, but Ill try..I will let her train in the yard with him daily and see what happens. You have all been very helpful, I feel there is some hope now. I lost the last two years with Nieko as my mom had cancer and I was taking care of her, so I blame myself for neglecting him. I have 5 grown children and she is the youngest and the only one he feels dominent over.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I think changing your methods/interactions would benefit the dog. Yelling and rolling/holding a dog on its back can be considered by dogs to be aggressive behavior towards them, and can foster more aggression (retaliation) from the dog. These are not beneficial to training or teaching your dog to live peacefully with other members of the household, instead they may cause more stress and strain on the dog and cause him to become more defensive. Holding a dog down when they are already stressed or aroused can also be very dangerous as a dog in that position is much more likely to bite.
I would recommend finding a professional trainer/behaviorist for your dog. 
The "No Free Lunch" protocol might also be helpful, you can read about this here:
No Free Lunch Program - Pit Bull Rescue Central
and
No Free Lunch Dog Training


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you've gotten alot of good advice, and just want to add my opinion) Since he has NEVER behaved like this before, it sounds like the pig was stressing him out, (kinda like dangling a carrot in front of a donkey?),,,may becoming a tad possessive over the pig, your daughter got involved, and he reacted.. I'm sure her yelling and running just amped him up more. 

I'm certainly not condoning what he did, but I think I can understand it. It also sounds like he does not trust your daughter, and your daughter is leery of him to begin with, and I'm sure he picks up on that. 

Growling at you, could have very well been a painful thing for him, if he has a bad back. 

I would get rid of the pig, I would be 'on' him 24/7 with your NILIF, and I would closely supervise interaction with him and your daughter. 

Good luck


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## Phay1018 (Nov 4, 2006)

I haven't seen anyone say it so as someone who has many farm animals and has had pot belly pigs before...THEY ARE NOT HOUSE PETS!!!! I don't care how cute and little the piglet is now, he's going to grow up to be anywhere from 50 to 100 plus pounds. What are you going to do with it then?? You think it can live in the upstairs portion of house 24/7? And that your dog won't have even more issues hearing and smelling the pig in 6-8 months when it's close to full grown?? 

Sorry, not trying to be rude, but I have seen tons by tons of PBP's admitted to the humane society I work at that were house pets that people don't feed and care for right and are so overweight they can't hardly walk anymore. It's sad. They belong in a barn with proper diet and enviornment for a reason.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I know I'm the lone person in this thread that will say this but I would re-home the dog.

My kid means more to me than anything and to have them bit is all it would take to get rid of the dog. Yes the dog is family but that is your kid. Your home should be a safe enviornemnt for your kid and before she wasn't comfotable with the dog and of course after this, she won't feel safe. At home I want my kid to feel safe and comfortable. The dog biting them disrupts the balance of that and personally I can't have that.

Now it comes to where you force your daughter to work with the dog and she understandably may not want too and shouldn't be forced. Is there really a choice when it comes down to your kid and the dog.

Some will say you caused all of the from the beginning when your daughter started to feel uneasy about the dog then the piglet addition, etc. 

I know many talk about dogs protective instincts and all but mine as a parent are just as high and I hate to imagine what I would have done to the dog but I protect my kids first.


You must do what you feel is best for you and your family and I hope you find a solution to it. Just IMHO, my kid and their piece of mind outweight anything and everyone else. I wouldn't force my kid to now try and bond with the dog. You know your kids better than anyone here.

Good luck.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and no one is going to take a dog that bit a family member, the daugher is 19 years old , not 5 or 6.

If the dog has never before displayed this type of behavior and he's what 6 years old? Something ain't right. He also has back issues, mild epilepsy. Again, not condoning it, but just wanted to add that.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Jakoda...you are right, no one will.

If the daughter says she doesn't feel comfortable in the house with the dog and doesn't want the dog there anymore (don't blame her) do u still keep it?

Who is more important?

Hope it all works out....I'm sure it isn't easy for all involved and hope I never go through it.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Phay1018 said:


> I haven't seen anyone say it so as someone who has many farm animals and has had pot belly pigs before...THEY ARE NOT HOUSE PETS!!!! I don't care how cute and little the piglet is now, he's going to grow up to be anywhere from 50 to 100 plus pounds. What are you going to do with it then?? You think it can live in the upstairs portion of house 24/7? And that your dog won't have even more issues hearing and smelling the pig in 6-8 months when it's close to full grown??


 I know two people who have or have had house pigs and make it work. One had one house pig who lived 14+ years and he will be her first and only. The other has had three now, currently has two. Neither of these people exclusively kept the pigs in the house because it is nearly impossible. They can't be kept caged 24/7 and they are smart enough to escape many indoor caging options anyway (the one who has two actually watched one help the other escape out of an ex-epn). They are extremely destructive because of their natural "rooting" behavior - they will root up carpet, get into cupboards, etc. And when they are full grown and have an accident in the house, it is a huge amount of urine - a bucket and mop accident. Both of these people have outdoor set ups for the pigs and indoor "pig proofed" areas. Steps aren't easy for them as they get bigger and older. A small healthy potbelly big is around 60-75lbs but many grow to be as much as 100-200lbs, which is quite large to keep indoors. Keeping an adult pot belly pig solely upstairs, with no access to the outdoors just isn't reasonable.

Other than size, destructiveness and housetraining issues, aggression beginning at adolescence can be a problem with pet pigs as well. The person I know who has two, her youngest was a rehome because he became aggressive and started biting around a year old. He was quite a challenge for her, an experienced pig owner to deal with at first and she had to use a "pig board" to move him around or risk getting bitten. Most pet pigs are bought on impulse, without research and don't end up working out because people don't have a realistic idea about owning them.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Rosey216,

Sounds like you have gotten a lot of good advice here on the board but i think that it sounds like you could use some on scene professional help so I would strongly advise you to find either a really good trainer used to working with dog aggression or an experienced animal behaviorist asap. I would al;so get rid of the pig no matter what you have to do to acomplish this.

Your dog should not have bit your daughter no matter the provocation short of a physical attack by your daughter on the dog.

If she is willing i do believe that an experienced professional can get them to peacfully co exist and maybe even learn to like and respect each other.

Good luck to you and your dog!


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I also think a private trainer that can come to the home and work with the dog and your daughter may be a big help. I agree you do not want to force your daughter into this but I also think you do not want her going around in life afraid of dogs. I think a good trainer can help her to see how to handle a dog and not be afraid. If you can pull this off I think you will see a change for the better in both of them.

Please do rule out any other medical issues with the dog. Good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ace952 said:


> Jakoda...you are right, no one will.
> 
> If the daughter says she doesn't feel comfortable in the house with the dog and doesn't want the dog there anymore (don't blame her) do u still keep it?
> 
> ...


 
Lets look at the facts if I have them straight:

1. The daughter is nineteen and the dog is six. The sons live in an apartment upstairs.

2. The dog has some health issues and now has a bite history. Rehoming the dog probably means euthanasia.

3. The dog was not having any issues until the piglet joined the family. The dog showed that he was majorly stressed out by the new addition.

Now my theory is that IF the pig situation was dealt with differently, MAYBE there would be no bite here. 

So, ACE 952, if you had a dog, did not deal with some issues between the dog and the daughter, new the dog had a siezure condition, brought in a piglet and then did not change the situation when the dog exhibited more signs of stress, and the dog ended up biting, what would you do? Do you euthanize the dog right off, without trying other leadership and management techniques? 

Try not to make this a choice between the daughter and the dog. That just manipulates and guilts. 

Lastly, the daughter is 19. The kindest thing to do for her at this point is to work through this leadership/management change so that she need not go through life being afraid of dogs. 

That book by Jan Fennel, I have it, it is very good.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> Try not to make this a choice between the daughter and the dog. That just manipulates and guilts.


 I tend to agree. We aren't talking about a young child but a young adult. This dog doesn't have much of a shot at being rehomed. He is a middle aged common breed, epileptic, has a disc problem and now a bite record. Any one of those things would make him hard to rehome, let alone all of them combined. 


As far as "the dog should have never bitten", go back to where I posted the article on bite thresholds (called something like Dog Bites Are Like Tetris). All dogs can and will bite, given the right (or wrong circumstance). Biting, growling, snarling, snapping, barking are all part of normal dog communication. We as a society expect so much more from our dogs then we do any other companion animals or even ourselves. Generally if a horse kicks or bites or rears, they aren't given a death sentence. A cat can get away with quite a bit of biting, scratching or killing small animals and live to see another day. Could you imagine if humans could never, ever so much as raise their voice at each without being labeled as mentally unstable? If a dog shows any sort of aggression, people think it's abnormal and an indication that this must just be a "bad dog".

This dog is likely under a lot of stress from the medical issues and the pig in the house. It sounds like the pig issue has been buidling a lot of frustration in the dog since the pig moved in. Yes, precautions need to be taken and changes need to be made to ensure the dog isn't pushed over his bite threshold. But he is a middle aged dog who has not previously bitten anyone and lives in a household of adults, I hardly think he deserves a death sentence at this point. He deserves for his humans to "hear" him and act accordingly.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I don't know about your dogs and family, of course, but in my house dog biting is NOT part of normal family dog behavior.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

That level of aggression toward a family member seems normal?????


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## patti (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm not an expert, but I think first thing get dog to the vet. He could be in pain. Also, many years ago I had a GSD who had those seizures, and she at times became aggressive to my sons for no reason. Never knew if it was a brain tumor, or what. Just a thought.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that rage syndrome is a part of epilepsy, but I could be wrong about that. Idiopathic epilepsy they do not know what causes it, but they feel that stress can trigger siezing episodes. 

So people with siezure dogs usually want to limit excess stressors like this pig. 
His response to the pig whether guarding or aggressive/prey, that would add stress that is unnecessary for this dog. 

It sounds like this dog has been given some ground because of his physical issues and epilepsy when it comes to training him, and probably leadership. At this point, they need to take back that ground with non-confrontational leadership techniques, which will make everyone involved easier.

Putting the dog down will solve the problem with THIS dog for the daughter. However, I think that it is not a good example of how people should handle problems, and it will do nothing for her in the long run. Of course forcing her out there with a lead and a prong collar is not what we are suggesting. But making some small changes in leadership that EVERYONE in the family adheres too, could possibly turn the corner for this dog, especially if the pig goes to live on a farm somewhere.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

selzer said:


> Lets look at the facts if I have them straight:
> 
> 1. The daughter is nineteen and the dog is six. The sons live in an apartment upstairs.
> 
> ...


1. So being that she is older it is ok?

2. Yes that is a possibility. With the number of people on messageboards here and elsewhere I am sure there would be someone willing to take the dog in.

3. Yes the piglet greatly contributed to the situation. How much?? We will never know but it did play a significant amount.

Maybe is the operative word. We will never know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda....

There you go it is the owner that helped contribute to this whole situation. I don't address it b/c the owner has already admitted to it. That is all spoiled milk.

Moving forward, the 1st question is if the daughter is ok with the dog being there.

If she doesn't mind working on her issues with the dog then great and hope it works out.

If she isn't then there should be no question.....dog goes before my kid goes.

If her daughter doesn't want to deal with the dog, are you going to force it on her? This is all about how the daughter feels in the home with the dog and her comfort level plain and simple.


There are some people that blame the daughter for the second bite for running. Come on.... How can you blame someone for running? Dog already bit her so I won't blame her for trying to run. Everyone says what people should do until they are in the situation...then its a WHOLE different ballgame.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I don't know about your dogs and family, of course, but in my house dog biting is NOT part of normal family dog behavior.


I so agree.

I just sympathize more with the human (daughter) and how she feels more than the dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't think anyone is saying that it's "OK" because the daughter is older. They are saying that you have a dog that is older, injured, and has a medical condition that probably requires medication. The chances of him finding a home are slim. Your daughter is 19 and (I assume) going to be out on her own soon.

Plus, the reasons behind the bite are entirely preventable with even a LITTLE work on the part of the humans in his life. Train him. Remove the cause of his stress - the pig. Have your daughter work with him. Practice NILIF.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and no I was not saying that it was "ok" because this wasn't a 5 or 6 year old. 

I was saying what Dainerra was saying above^^

Also, I do not think it's OK for a dog to bite a family member HOWEVER, we weren't there, we do not know exactly the what's or why's. And pain, medical issues aren't within the "norm" when it comes to dogs.

I do think this can probably be managed with pro help and more vigilance from the owner.


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

My daughter does not want to do any kind of training with him, I told her at least feed him and walk him. The strange thing is that Nieko is always grabbing her arm lightly he has been doing that since he was a puppy with everyone.. The trainer said it was controlled biting and as long as he keeps it like that its fine. He did this with everyone when he gets nervous, or excited. I redirected that so now whenever he gets excited or when you come home he grabs the first thing he sees ( shoe, toy, cup, water bottle) and keeps it in his mouth till he is calm. He has been doing that for years, instead of grabbing your arm.. So she said when she was on the couch and he jumped and grabbed her arm, at first she thought he was playing, thats when I heard her scream "he is really biting me" and I saw him holding her arm. It looked like his tooth was stuck. At that point I thought maybe it was an accident and when she lifted her arm his tooth got stuck, She was petrified he is 100 lbs. But what really worried me was I grabbed him and she ran, he just darted after her and grabbed her other arm. Yes, she was screaming then again so was I, but he wouldn't let go, I had to open his mouth myself. Thats when I pulled him to his bed and physically put him in a down cause he just wasnt listening and he was I shouldnt say growling he was answering me back (he is very vocal ) so yes I held him down. At that point I was shaking because he got away once to grab her again I wasnt going to take a second chance. So I really wasnt thinking about his back. But believe me He is so much stronger than me. I certainly didnt hurt him.. So I held him down and my daughters friend was here through all this and I told him take the pig out of here and then I put Nieko in his den.. Went to hospital. I just had Nieko Xrayed 2 weeks ago, and bloodwork. They said nothing changed aside from arthritis.. He has been on rimadyl. Believe me when I tell you I would NEVER do anything to hurt my dog..I am really confused right now. I absolutely will focus on some obedience with him, but she wont. Do you think by her feeding him at least or waking him that it will help? My Gosh I dont know what I would have done without all of you....


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Yes, I believe at least having your daughter feeding him will help their relationship. Have your daughter make him sit for his food and then release him and move away. Walking will help their bond, I wouldn't let your daughter walk him alone at first since he has no respect for your daughter at the moment, but I wouldn't force her to do anything simPly because it won't help the situation but it could make it worse. I would just start with having her feed him.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

codmaster said:


> I don't know about your dogs and family, of course, but in my house dog biting is NOT part of normal family dog behavior.


 It is not about my dogs or your dogs. Biting is a normal part of communication for all dogs. Through training, socialization and management, we aim to increase the dog's bite threshold so that the dog never feels the need to bite. But all dogs can bite and all dog's have a bite threshold that once they are pushed past it, they will bite. 

To the OP, please consider the Ruff Love program I suggested. You will not change your dog's behavior by simply having your daughter feed and walk him. he needs a more structured approach. Jan Fennel's book is interesting but rather outdated (focuses on the outdated dominance theory of being "alpha", eating before your dog, going through doors first, etc). Ruff Love is more behavior oriented and more to the point without much "fluff". It is a more structured, more in depth version of NILIF.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ace952 said:


> 1. So being that she is older it is ok? did I say so? I thought I was relaying the facts as I understood them.
> 
> 2. Yes that is a possibility. With the number of people on messageboards here and elsewhere I am sure there would be someone willing to take the dog in. I feel no urge to take on a six year old dog with a bite history, bad back, and epilepsy. That may make me a bad person. Someone on this site that has deeper pockets, better homeowner's insurance, and more time and patience than me might have their palms itching. Unfortunately, if that person takes on this dog, they will not take on another needy dog from another situation.
> 
> ...


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## rosey516 (Feb 15, 2004)

Hi Everyone, I just want to say that I do blame myself completely, thats why I even feel worse causeI could have prevented it.. As far as the bites, yes he punctured both arms, they are both swollen and black and blue.. I guess it could have been worse.. Yes she has a fear of him now, but she is trying not to show him.. He is still excited to see her, she still pets him and kisses him, She is feeding him. She is making him sit, speak, paw or down before she gives him treats. You would never know that a couple of days ago this dog attacked her. The pig played a tremendous part. I still get nervous when I see her with him. Sometimes he just looks at her funny, I cant explain it. So I am just keeping a close eye. BTW does anyone want a baby mini piglet?? Again I thank all of you, Its amazing how much I learned on this forum in just 2 days. I will take all your advice, put it all together and do my best with Nieko.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

That sounds a lot better than it could have. The best of luck to you, your daughter and your dog!


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

> I just want to say that I do blame myself completely,


You shouldn't feel that way. Everyone posting is basing their statements on knowing the end result. The only way you could reasonably blame yourself completely is if for the last several years you threatened your daughter with dog attacks and taught the dog to run down pigs for food.

Just because something could have been done differently does not mean everything would be fine if it had been done differently. Rather than blaming anything, anyone, or yourself you should just think about what can be done make things better. I hope your daughter is feeling better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blame is a weird thing. 

I would be much more concerned if the owner was blaming his breeding, his lines, his breeder, his trainer, or even his epilepsy. When one puts the blame on others it means they do not have to do anything differently.

But there is no reason to harbor a ton of guilt. 

Not all dogs would have acted this way, given the same situation. 

This is not blaming the dog, it is just a statement. Dogs are all individuals, and not necessarily what their environment makes them. 

And when we know better, we do better. 

If you take no responsiblity looking backwards on this, the dog has little hope of improving. But beforehand, we look at a dog we know and never consider that the dog might bite a family member, even if there is a quirk here or there. So now you know that his bite threshold is not very high, and improving the leadership all around will be helpful I think.

I am sorry this happened to your daughter. Those bites sound painful. I do not blame her for being frightened. I hope that she realizes that the added excitement was just too much for the dog and understanding that will help prevent future issues. And I hope she can some how work with someone who can help her, give her the tools she needs to be more safe around dogs. If she gets jumpy around this dog, I am afraid that it may happen again. On the other hand, if she helps this dog learn how to be a better canine citizen, they can learn together and both get over this incident, and the next puppy or dog she has will start off on the right foot so to speak.

We do not generally learn the most form our best dogs. We learn the most from our toughest dogs. Good luck with your boy.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

kiwilrdg said:


> You shouldn't feel that way. Everyone posting is basing their statements on knowing the end result. The only way you could reasonably blame yourself completely is if for the last several years you threatened your daughter with dog attacks and taught the dog to run down pigs for food.
> 
> Just because something could have been done differently does not mean everything would be fine if it had been done differently. Rather than blaming anything, anyone, or yourself you should just think about what can be done make things better. I hope your daughter is feeling better.


I completely agree! It's not your fault! Even if your dog is highly trained and at the top of his game, he is always an animal first as my trainer would say. You can't control every aspect of an animal. You never know what they are thinking. Many people say they trust their dogs completely around kids or other people. I never 100% trust my dogs and I am always paying attention to both my dogs, you never know what can set them off or make them unhappy, especially if they are stressed and ill. My dogs are people friendly and dog friendly, but sometimes you just never know. That is just my opinion! I hope your daughter does work with him, I think it will help! Keep us posted on how it goes!


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

Dogs bite.  

My new german shepherd is great, but I do know that she is jelous of me when I give attention to another dog. I noticed this right away, and I am aware of this character in her, and I plan accordingly.

Now you know that your dog acts "wierd" around your pig, you can take action to reduce friction in that situation.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

You know, flame me if you wish, but that sounds unstable and I would not permit it, she was not hurting him or threatening him and he bit her bad enough to puncture and leave bruising. That would be a dead dog in my house, or it would be a dog with "Strike #1" on it, if I feed it, give it shelter, and treat it well it had better not hurt me or my family.

Strike #2 can happen any time if you and her don't both step up big time. He could have done real severe damage if you didn't get him off of her. 

Do you ever have kids who visit? 
That is my concern, he's shown he is willing to attack people. What if it's a kid near him next time he gets grumpy? I mean, if you and your daughter are fine with him and will work with him that is completely your choice, but I would never let him around kids. One bite to a small kid from a dog like that can be damaging for life. 

Saying get rid of your other pet because on dog went off on a human because of it, redirecting I guess, is ridiculous. YOU are in charge, that is your home. Your dog does not get to choose who or what lives there and that is no excuse to redirect his aggression or frustration on an innocent human.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok I guess I have to say this, APBT, weren't you just posting about muzzling J because you have a houseguest staying with you and J is thisclose to nailing him?? Are YOU in charge of YOUR home? 

I am in no way condoning what this dog did, and I don't think the OP is either. However, for whatever reason, the dog doesn't like the daughter and vice versa. The dog has a medical condition, has NEVER done this before, and I think the OP should not blame herself, and I also think she'll take steps to try and rectify the problem.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Saying get rid of your other pet because on dog went off on a human because of it, redirecting I guess, is ridiculous. YOU are in charge, that is your home. Your dog does not get to choose who or what lives there and that is no excuse to redirect his aggression or frustration on an innocent human.


IS it ridiculous? Why do we bother socializing our puppies and older dogs then? Why not just drop them into whatever situations we think are ok and expect them to behave appropriately? Our dogs don't make the rules. They live by the rules we give them. But if we change the rules after SIX years, how fair is that? 

I havne't seen anyone say that Neiko has done anything but follow the rules that his owner set for his whole life, up until this incident. Yes, he was too dominant with the younger daughter, but the OP admits she (and the daughter) did not address that well enough. So, in effect, it was allowed. Allowing something means it's ok. That's one of the rules. 

Let's break down what happened, because clarity is often in the details:

1. Suddenly, a creature -- that Neiko has NEVER encountered before -- comes into the house. He's curious. Likely stressed. 

2. Then they yell at him, making him MORE stressed. 

3. He showed good bite inhibition up front. 

4. Then the daughter ran, which triggered things in his brain we can't begin to undertand (was it prey drive? a need to control her in the presence of this unknown creature? who knows?) and the second bite wasn't nearly as controlled. 

5. The growl and movement toward Rosey is almost certainly redirected aggression (in that state of mind, he wasn't aware who it was). 

6. Even despite the fact that he has pain issues, when Rosey puts him on the ground, he calms down. 

Let's also look at what Rosey has said. Since her mom had cancer, Neiko was by her side during those two years. His life changed dramatically, but he coped with that. The children grew up and moved on. But he stayed by, as most likely, Rosey leaned on him more than she had when he was younger. Is is likely that he grew more protective of her during this years? I think so. Is it completely normal that this would happen? Yes. But we need to recognize that this may be the case. 

So... things change over time, and we ask more of our dogs, without our realizing it. We add more to their duties, which may be stressful for them Then BAM! we toss something into Neiko's world that he has NEVER been socialized to. He's perhaps edgier than he used to be. We KNOW he has epilepsy and pain issues. Despite all of that, he exercises restraint at first.

But he's not perfect. But none of us are.

Would I trust this dog? I would. I would definitely get him evaluated, work with a private trainer, and keep working with him.

But this black and white idea of "my house, my rules" is crazy. You can't simply change the rules of the game in the 4th quarter and expect someone who has been a good team player all these years to adjust automatically. I would be very concerned if someone brought a creature that I've never seen before into MY living room too. Under stress, we tend to revert, especially if our training isn't current. Whose fault is it that Neikos' training isn't current? I'm not saying it's Rosey's, exactly. I understand that she had other family obligations. But it's certainly not Neiko's. He doesn't deserve to be rehomed. 

He deserves to be conditioned, trained, and worked with. He deserves to be treated with all of the love and respect that he has given this family all of these past 6 years. 

Follow MRL's wise (highlighted bolded) advise. Have him evaluated by a vet and a behaviorist. Then get busy. :hug:


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

If this dog was under proper control and had the understanding the Rosey is the leader having a strange animal caged in her house should not make him attack a family member.

Stress, unless it's extreme - such as you are beating the life out of your dog, is no excuse to actually ATTACK a human in the household. 

Just as an example, a little mutt I know that has fear problems has been hit by a car, shattering both front legs, forced to live in a medium sized crate for about 20 hours a day, more if she's unlucky, she gets screamed at, hit, and has her cage beaten to scare her when she makes noise, she is attacked by the cats in her home through the bars of her cage, and YET this dog who goes through such trauma every day would not redirect on me even when I picked her up by the neck directly out of a dogfight. That is a stable dog.


I really do not think Rosey 'changed the rules'. The rules did not change, she brought a new pet into the home and it caused him to bite a family member. 

If, right now, I went out and got a cat (which J has never interacted with) I would expect him to listen to me and not hurt ME just because it's something new. 

I never said take the dog out back and shoot it because it's just a bad old doggy. It sounds to me like this is part human error and part unstable dog. And if he was kept, raised, and trained properly I would see no reason to keep that dog alive if he opts to attack instead of back down when confronted by a human family member.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> *ok I guess I have to say this, APBT, weren't you just posting about muzzling J because you have a houseguest staying with you and J is thisclose to nailing him?? Are YOU in charge of YOUR home? *
> 
> I am in no way condoning what this dog did, and I don't think the OP is either. However, for whatever reason, the dog doesn't like the daughter and vice versa. The dog has a medical condition, has NEVER done this before, and I think the OP should not blame herself, and I also think she'll take steps to try and rectify the problem.


Of that particular dog, with bad breeding and weak nerves and a shatty temperament? No, his fear takes control in some situations. If we are rushed by a dog on a walk he tries to run first, even if I do try to calm him. And yes, I want to muzzle him as a precaution so I won't have to keep him separated constantly. Ever had a dog-aggressive dog? One that can be walked around other dogs and sit next to them but if they're pushed an inch will really let the other dog know about it? That is J with people. J is fear aggressive to strangers and new people. Not even I can be on top of him if he's loose 100% of the time. If the friend ignores what I have told him and goes to pet J I would rather he has a muzzle on so if he did bite he would not hurt anyone. It's unfortunate that J was born into such a horrible temperament, because he really tries to be good for me but he can't help it. 

He is not a normal dog by any means. He has had a crappy, fearful temperament with anyone new since he was a small pup, he only accepted two people outside of family who visited very often. Which is why I opted to keep him responsibly and strictly instead of euthanizing. He is either at my side leashed or confined from strangers by fencing/crate/or chainspot. 

However, if he ever hurt a human in my family for a trivial reason I would have him put down myself, because I would rather give a home to a dog with a stable and trustworthy temperament. I can do anything to this dog and trust that he will take it without trying to rip my arm off. I love him dearly but if he ever showed he was willing to bite me or anyone in his group of people for little reason then I would do the responsible thing.

I hope that answered your question.. if not feel free to ask more. 

Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and I really hope they find out what the real problem is and fix it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

APBTLove, When you have a dog with epilepsy, I am sorry, but you do not want to add unnecessary stressors to that dog's life. 

Watching a dog sieze is bad, not knowing when the next siezure will happen is worse. Dogs can become scared and aggressive coming out of a siezure, and they pee themeselves, sometimes they walk funny for a couple of weeks aftwerwards. Sometimes they have brain damage, revert to being a puppy, run around the house afterwards bumping into things and trying to figure out where they are. 

Sometimes it starts out with bad siezures, sometimes light siezures, sometimes there are months between siezures, sometimes they have several in a month. All you can really do is give them the meds and try to avoid unnecessary stressors to try to make siezures less violent and less frequent.

If people have a siezure dog and then get a pig, and the pig seems to stress the siezure dog, get rid of the pig. Clear and simple. I would not try to have it live upstairs with my son, I would get it out of my home. Because a dog I lived with for six years means more to me than the new pig. The new pig can get a new home. The dog, with its age and medical conditions, and now the unfortunate bite history has little to no chance of getting a new home.

Not everything in life is black and white.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think this situation is very unique considering the medical conditions of the dog. Epilepsy in people is scary enough, but humans can at least understand it to a point. Dogs CANNOT.

My mom and dad's dog has epilepsy as well. He developed seizures after I moved out of the house, so I have only seem him have one. It's really crazy and it's quite obvious that he is totally not in control of himself. My mother has told me in the past that right before or right after (not literally right.....like within and hour or so) he has a seizure that he has GONE AFTER their other dog quite badly. Something he doesn't do normally.

Epilepsy does weird things to the mind and seemingly "minor" stressers to normal dogs is very bad for them.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Sue (and other posters), when you have a dog with medical conditions as this, everything isn't black and white. 

And yes, I've lived with dog aggressive dogs, one who had weak nerves, shatty temperament, they can be managed quite well if you know what the triggers are.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

He is managed well. I don't push him past his endurance and he has not reacted to a single person or dog I've had him with because I make sure his triggers (which are touching him or threatening) are not met. The last time he reacted was because a group of four teens ran up on him and being as he was on a leash, he tried to run but couldn't, he then barked at them and hid behind me.

He is managed perfectly well and behaves himself as long as he does not reach a trigger. When he gets scared by a human or dog there is not much I can do until I get him to calm down a bit and focus on me. Otherwise his natural instincts take over and tell him to run, if he can't run he will fight. Though I am not sure why we are discussing my (stranger) fear-aggressive dog because I am getting him a muzzle that he can wear comfortably around my guest. It's a precaution until I can trust J around him completely. J doesn't know this man and is wary of him. 

Thank you for sharing Selzer. I have never owned an epileptic dog nor had a real reason to research on it so I was not completely sure what all the effects are.. I DID have the chance to share a lot of time with a pit/husky who had pretty bad seizures. After a particularly violent one his eye even clouded over. HE just got slower and slower mentally with each one, and started to lash out at his owners when he was uncomfortable. I talked them into putting this poor dog down. He was only one and his seizures were frequent and obviously very rough on him. HIS quality of life was dwindling and he was a threat to their kids. I guess I tend to look a the big picture more often than not and I should slow down and take it piece by piece. To me, a dog with a medical condition that has made him unstable enough to attack someone he's known and lived with(?) for 6 years sounds serious enough to consider letting him go. If his condition has him confused and upset so easily how can he be happy?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> I make sure his triggers (which are touching him or threatening) are not met.


Neiko's "triggers" appear to be novel critters in his home. I don't see why we should respect some dogs' triggers and not those of other dogs. Rosey was not aware of this. Now she is. We move on.

I would like to see Neiko evaluated by a neurologist to make sure that his epilepsy is under control. It would be nice to have him evaluated by an orthopedist to ensure that his pain is well managed. I would also recommend a veterinary behaviorist for their input (and recommendations on training). 

American College of Veterinary Behaviorists

neurologists: ACVIM

orthopedist (search small animal general/orthopedic surgeon) ACVS - Find a Surgeon in Your Area

With those three specialists on board, you should have a clearer idea of what Neikos' condition truly is. Is medicine indicated one, two or all three fronts? Would rehab (physical therapy) for pain help not only for the pain issues but also to burn energy and give him something safe but interesting to do on a regular basis? 

What do these three professional specialists think is his prognosis? Once Rosey has this information, then she'll be in a position to make a wise, informed, compassionate decision that is best for her dog, herself and her family.

In the interim, I would really like to see people, especially those who live in glass houses, stop throwing stones. For anyone (who I presume is a lay person) to be even suggesting euthanasia OVER AN INTERNET FORUM over one incident in which the dog showed bite restraint initially, appears to have recovered rather well at the end (he didn't remain aroused for any considerable time afterward despite the stress he seemed to be under; in other words, he responded to his owner) is just irresponsible.

For anyone to do so when the dog has veterinary issues that may or may not be under control, when the owner has stated very clearly that she has been dealing with very significant family medical issues of her own, and when the owner is clearly feeling responsible for all of this --- well, that, in my opinion, is cruel.

This is an internet forum. This dog needs professional evaluation. When a member comes here asking for help, there should be lines that should not be crossed so glibly.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

^^^I agree


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