# Looking for certain traits in next GSD



## Deer Dave (Aug 7, 2013)

I was wondering if I could get some opinions on breeders that are breeding German lines with higher than average intelligence, good nerve and stable temperament. This will be for a companion to my half American / German line GSD. My dog is a little over 2 and has lost his partner and he is use to having another dog with him. He is not overly active but likes to play hard when he's in the mood. He is very smart so I wanted to find a breeder that is trying to breed for easy learning GSD with a decent temperament.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I'll be interested to see what responses you get to your question. It sounds like you are looking for a pet quality and not show or sport and not really super energy to go along with that extra intelligence. 

I was just commenting last week that I have never seen an ad for a litter that states, better than average intelligence or heard a breeder speaking of anything like that(seems like it would be an advertising point). I don't even know if that's possible or it's just the luck of the draw??


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

think you'll find that 'intelligence' is standard.

Look for breeders that value the health of the dog.

Perhaps German show lines might be right up your alley.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I'll be interested to see what responses you get to your question. It sounds like you are looking for a pet quality and not show or sport and not really super energy to go along with that extra intelligence.
> 
> I was just commenting last week that I have never seen an ad for a litter that states, better than average intelligence or heard a breeder speaking of anything like that(seems like it would be an advertising point). I don't even know if that's possible or it's just the luck of the draw??


I don't think intelligence on its own is too particularly marketable and impressive to advertise. A dog can be above have above average intelligence in all the wrong ways for being easily trainable!! lol Im guessing what the OP really wants is a dog that is naturally biddable and easy to train.


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## Deer Dave (Aug 7, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I'll be interested to see what responses you get to your question. It sounds like you are looking for a pet quality and not show or sport and not really super energy to go along with that extra intelligence.
> 
> I was just commenting last week that I have never seen an ad for a litter that states, better than average intelligence or heard a breeder speaking of anything like that(seems like it would be an advertising point). I don't even know if that's possible or it's just the luck of the draw??


I think there has to be a consensus among people who have had good luck with above average learning dogs with certain breeders. I'm hoping I can get enough input to seek out such a breeder. Maybe we can inspire breeders to consider this when using their dogs for breeding. I know the puppies will be the luck of the draw if they carry this trait or not but at least the averages should go up when people are thinking in this manner.

You are also correct in assuming what other pet qualities I am looking for..


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Deer Dave said:


> I think there has to be a consensus among people who have had good luck with above average learning dogs with certain breeders. I'm hoping I can get enough input to seek out such a breeder. Maybe we can inspire breeders to consider this when using their dogs for breeding. I know the puppies will be the luck of the draw if they carry this trait or not but at least the averages should go up when people are thinking in this manner.
> 
> You are also correct in assuming what other pet qualities I am looking for..



I think in terms of intelligence, that it's going to be hard to find someone who breeds for it. How YOU interact with your dog will determine how trainable a dog is. GSD's in general are very smart dogs capable of learning and adapting. That being said not all personalities work with one another. Not all people understand how to communicate with their dog. So one person could say that one dog is less intelligent and hard to train while another person could have the exact opposite response with the same dog. Does this make sense?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykaios said:


> I don't think intelligence on its own is too particularly marketable and impressive to advertise. A dog can be above have above average intelligence in all the wrong ways for being easily trainable!! lol Im guessing what the OP really wants is a dog that is naturally biddable and easy to train.


Understandable. But, to the layman - it means the same thing.


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## Deer Dave (Aug 7, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> I think in terms of intelligence, that it's going to be hard to find someone who breeds for it. How YOU interact with your dog will determine how trainable a dog is. GSD's in general are very smart dogs capable of learning and adapting. That being said not all personalities work with one another. Not all people understand how to communicate with their dog. So one person could say that one dog is less intelligent and hard to train while another person could have the exact opposite response with the same dog. Does this make sense?


Yes that makes perfectly good sense to me but if most of the people who have bought from a particular breeder have had good luck with easily trainable dogs then not all of them would have the same level of ability to train their dogs either..


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

ok, so what do you plan to do with this above average intelligence in a pet home?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

OP - Just as an example of what you might run into while looking at litters...

1st litter I looked at - Large sire, not hyper but a slow mover & aggressive - Dam - ?? couldn't come out of the house to be seen but it sounded pretty much like she demolished the house during the 1/2 hour I was there outside.

2nd litter - Sire and Dam not on premises? - Pass

3rd litter - Sire - another large male - loose (country) barked appropriately but not threatening (just announcing us) - dam (her reputation preceded her She had of course been cooped up with the pups but when they let her go - she ran like the wind for about 15 minutes - all I saw was a blur. But then she settled down came over and met us and was friendly. 

The breeder said my pup would be "medium drive". What did I end up with? A pup that is as mellow as can be - until she and I play or train. Then she's ready for anything and so eager and alert - sometimes I have to wait a few minutes to settle her. She is what I would call "smart" yes, expected of the GSD breed. 

IMO you either see the sire and dam and not just in a kennel, you ask about them and watch them or, you go to a very established kennel and be honest about what you're looking for, check references and trust them to place the right puppy with you. At some point you have to trust the breeder but if you see something amiss - walk away.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Are you looking for intelligence or trainability? Not necessarily the same thing.


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## Deer Dave (Aug 7, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> OP - Just as an example of what you might run into while looking at litters...
> 
> 1st litter I looked at - Large sire, not hyper but a slow mover & aggressive - Dam - ?? couldn't come out of the house to be seen but it sounded pretty much like she demolished the house during the 1/2 hour I was there outside.
> 
> ...



Good advise.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sounds like you want a companion for your dog. 

This is a really bad reason to purchase a dog. Sorry.


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## Deer Dave (Aug 7, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> Are you looking for intelligence or trainability? Not necessarily the same thing.


I know but I think a little of both go a long way. Here is what someone told me long ago. Not sure if it's totally true but it will make my point. If you trained a GSD and a Doberman to guide a blind person the same way everyday eventually the Doberman would think why am I going down the sidewalks and stoping at the crosswalks when no cars are there. The Doberman would eventually take the easier way from point a to b while a GSD is more biddable and would want to please the trainer. Well I am looking for both traits cause one complements the other.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^lol, well as a guide dog trainer (primarily of labs), the same analogy is often used from the days my school used gsd and the gsd takes the short cut 

bottom line, and what most people are getting at.... gsd are an intelligent breed by nature, and "above average" by far when compared to lots of other breeds. above average for a gsd will likely come with traits that are undesirable for your needs. there are other words to describe what you're looking for, biddable is one.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Intelligence, Biddable or trainability. I'd like to hear the definition of each.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

yay for google! not too in depth or comprehensive but you should be able to have your question answered in this article SV: https://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/09/24/lessons-from-shedd-why-you-dont-really-want-a-smart-dog/

however, a new thread can be started for continued discussion - I think most everyone knows what the OP means by now and he's looking for breeder referrals.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks Fodder - that article answered the question for me. No need to start a new thread on my part....


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Good article, Fodder. Thanks!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm within a couple of hours from you, and I've got an American show line dog who would fit your bill: she is both intelligent and biddable (total stinker sometimes but ultimately is happy to please), up for anything but not overwhelmingly energetic (well behaved in the house but as soon as I say, "Do you want to...?" or, "Should we go...?" she is all over that), overall confident and mellow temperament, very dog-friendly. 

I worked with an ASL breeder, though, and I'm honestly not sure if there are any good German show line breeders around here. I wasn't looking for German lines, so I can't speak to that. I can say I've seen some really nice German dogs in obedience classes, I just don't know from which kennels they came. My standard advice is to attend a Friday night at the Animal Inn (GSDCMSP rents the space) and watch dogs in the ring and meet both dogs and people. See which dogs exhibit traits you like and talk to their owners; owners/handlers are almost always thrilled to tell you where they got their dog. I think classes start at 6, and you can find the club's website or Facebook page if you want to see when actual meetings are taking place. I know that's a trek from where you are, but it's an idea.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Sounds like you want a companion for your dog.
> 
> This is a really bad reason to purchase a dog. Sorry.


I don't necessarily agree with that.

The OP has had two dogs in the past. I'm presuming he handled the financial, time, and energy demands just fine. I'm also guessing that while every dog is a different ball of wax, he has a conceptual framework for how to manage a multiple-dog household.

If he's going to love and care for his second dog and is prepared to work through any behavioral or personality conflicts that come up, I don't see it as a problem that he wants to get a second dog to keep his remaining dog company.

I want a second dog to have a second dog. I would love that second dog to be a show prospect. Neither of those things will come true because it's not practical, but I don't see why "because I want to/want to do X with it" would be a better reason (and maybe it's not in your opinion, you haven't indicated either way). Certainly I don't think it's any more likely to work out well, maybe even less likely because I would be looking with a certain goal in mind, not necessarily with my first dog at the forefront, while OP is placing a high priority on his first dog and I'm making the assumption also on the second dog, because neither dog will be happy if it's a bad match.

I would see your logic if you thought the OP was really just buying his older dog a toy, but I'm not sure it's fair to assume that he is.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> I don't necessarily agree with that.
> 
> The OP has had two dogs in the past. I'm presuming he handled the financial, time, and energy demands just fine. I'm also guessing that while every dog is a different ball of wax, he has a conceptual framework for how to manage a multiple-dog household.
> 
> ...


 85-90% of the post focusses on the dog as a companion to the other dog, the other dog's qualities, the other dog's needs, the other dog's familiarity or loneliness. 

What we need to know is what the owner wants in a second dog. Not what he thinks his dog needs. We want to know how the owner intends to make the second dog his partner, not the hopes of a dog being a dog's partner. 

If the owner is used to having two dogs, and likes a two-dog-household, fine. He is committing to the second dog. 

Sometimes, the original dog wants zero to do with then new dog, and if that is the point of getting a second, then what?


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## Deer Dave (Aug 7, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> I'm within a couple of hours from you, and I've got an American show line dog who would fit your bill: she is both intelligent and biddable (total stinker sometimes but ultimately is happy to please), up for anything but not overwhelmingly energetic (well behaved in the house but as soon as I say, "Do you want to...?" or, "Should we go...?" she is all over that), overall confident and mellow temperament, very dog-friendly.
> 
> I worked with an ASL breeder, though, and I'm honestly not sure if there are any good German show line breeders around here. I wasn't looking for German lines, so I can't speak to that. I can say I've seen some really nice German dogs in obedience classes, I just don't know from which kennels they came. My standard advice is to attend a Friday night at the Animal Inn (GSDCMSP rents the space) and watch dogs in the ring and meet both dogs and people. See which dogs exhibit traits you like and talk to their owners; owners/handlers are almost always thrilled to tell you where they got their dog. I think classes start at 6, and you can find the club's website or Facebook page if you want to see when actual meetings are taking place. I know that's a trek from where you are, but it's an idea.


Thanks for your response, I looked up the Animal Inn and its just over an hour away from me in Lake Elmo. That would be a good idea to go there and look and visit with some of the people there and see their dogs in person.

Sounds like you have a very nice female dog. How old is she?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

As has been stated, intelligence doesn't always correlate with easily trainable/biddable nor with handler focus and pack drive (to be with the handler). I think of the smarter breeds as often wanting to test you the handler... keeping you honest and if you blow it, maybe take advantage of that... making up their own games....thinking of faster better ways to do things... faster and better than you. Just saying. Smart dogs need jobs, need structure and investment in training, not just other dogs as companions. This typically means lots of work for you to stay on top of things. Are you willing to commit to that.


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## Deer Dave (Aug 7, 2013)

DutchKarin said:


> As has been stated, intelligence doesn't always correlate with easily trainable/biddable nor with handler focus and pack drive (to be with the handler). I think of the smarter breeds as often wanting to test you the handler... keeping you honest and if you blow it, maybe take advantage of that... making up their own games....thinking of faster better ways to do things... faster and better than you. Just saying. Smart dogs need jobs, need structure and investment in training, not just other dogs as companions. This typically means lots of work for you to stay on top of things. Are you willing to commit to that.


Dually noted, respect and value your advise.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Deer Dave said:


> Thanks for your response, I looked up the Animal Inn and its just over an hour away from me in Lake Elmo. That would be a good idea to go there and look and visit with some of the people there and see their dogs in person.
> 
> Sounds like you have a very nice female dog. How old is she?


Thank you! Yes, we like her a lot. She is a year and a half old now.

Best of luck on your search!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I started a new thread about http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/614250-intelligence-vs-trainability.html#post7595754 so as not to jack the original thread because this does deserve discussion.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Deer Dave said:


> I was wondering if I could get some opinions on breeders that are breeding German lines with higher than average intelligence, good nerve and stable temperament. This will be for a companion to my half American / German line GSD. My dog is a little over 2 and has lost his partner and he is use to having another dog with him. He is not overly active but likes to play hard when he's in the mood. He is very smart so I wanted to find a breeder that is trying to breed for easy learning GSD with a decent temperament.


I would hope all GSD breeders are breeding for those attributes in the least.
Why do you want to buy your dog a companion? Aren't you his companion? I can see wanting two or more dogs, but if you go to a good breeder with that reasoning, I doubt they will seriously consider you as an owner of a future pup. 
As far as intelligence goes, look for a breeder that has proven their program...see what they've previously produced. 
Good breeders have a puppy raising protocol that sets pups up for success early on. They expose neonates to scent, texture, etc before they can see or hear. There is so much that they put into the pup before they are sent off to the new home, I'd ask breeders about their puppy raising program.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Hopefully the OP will have plenty of time to consider why he really wants the dog and what contingencies he'll have in place if things don't work exactly as he hopes. I'd imagine every single one of us has something that would give a good breeder pause.


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## Deer Dave (Aug 7, 2013)

Emoore said:


> I started a new thread about http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/614250-intelligence-vs-trainability.html#post7595754 so as not to jack the original thread because this does deserve discussion.


Thanks for starting this new thread. I'm looking forward to getting educated by people's experiences on this matter. My intent was not draw so much negativity on my post so this should serve a better purpose.


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