# K9 Police Officer Seen In Video repeatedly Punching Police K9



## giebel (Jul 28, 2016)

I am angered about this recent incident on so many levels. Particularly the quote from the Captain who deems it appropriate for the K9 to be punched as a correction for aggressive behavior and not following directives from the handler. In my opinion the whole k9 department of Vacaville needs to be re evaluated if they think this is what k9 dog training is.
Dog Taken To ‘Third-Party Handler' After Vacaville Officer Seen Punching K9 Partner During Training


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

oh dear


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

I got really upset when I watched that. Hard corrections should only be administered by trainers who know what they are doing. Otherwise its not training; its abuse. I'm not sure what the dog is learning by lying on its back getting repeatedly punched in the face.


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## giebel (Jul 28, 2016)

I completely agree violetmd. This doesn't appear to be anything remotely defined as a hard correction and is abusive. Hoping someone on the forum who is involved in K( training or is a K9 Officer has an opinion about this incident.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

This video and replies was covered in another thread recently and quite a few comments fyi.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The officer needs to be removed as a K9 officer. I train with a K9 officer and my dog would not out. Her possession is over the top and we taught her to out without punishing her. There are ways to teach an out without beating on or stringing up the dog. And the whole dominance thing pitched by that chief is bunk.


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## giebel (Jul 28, 2016)

WNGD said:


> This video and replies was covered in another thread recently and quite a few comments fyi.


Thank you I didn't see the previous post.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

giebel said:


> Thank you I didn't see the previous post.


that’s because it was about a different story, where the officer shot the dog. this story was linked in that thread but the comments weren’t directly related to this incident.

linked here if it’s of interest to you


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where did it say he was coming up the leash? They said he wouldn't out the toy. I'm sorry, David, I"m apparently not qualified to answer your question. I can only assume that answer is to punch the dog in the head repeatedly.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Serious question: once the dog is down and has been hit in the head once for whatever it's allegedly serious infraction was, what's the point of continuing to whale on the dog repeatedly when it's down and crying? That looks like human anger in the video to my untrained eye. Is there any reasonable justification for repeated blows on the head of a pinned dog?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Quite frankly, this is the wrong forum to have these conversations. Anything you say or any question you ask is just blown up.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Magwart said:


> Serious question: once the dog is down and has been hit in the head once for whatever it's allegedly serious infraction was, what's the point of continuing to whale on the dog repeatedly when it's down and crying? That looks like human anger in the video to my untrained eye. Is there any reasonable justification for repeated blows on the head of a pinned dog?


Thats what I would think. There's situations and certain dogs that I think you can make the case for an amount of "submission", but I bet in hindsight the officer would figure punching wasn't anything productive. In some moments though, trying not to be emotional, anger, its tough for a lot of us.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

This article says that the officer went to take the ball back from the dog and the dog came after him. If a dog was to come up the leash at me, and this is assuming he’s on a leash and collar, I would try to take the leash taut, stretch my arm straight out, and lift up. Ideally I take enough slack out of the leash so that the dog can’t reach me. All of this is something that has to happen very fast and ideally the dog coming at me is something I see coming. As the dog relents, I would slowly lower them and give an order to sit. If the dog started back up, I would lift again and repeat. I want to know what everyone here considers a hard correction and what their response to a situation like this is. I think it can be a productive conversation.


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## giebel (Jul 28, 2016)

Fodder said:


> that’s because it was about a different story, where the officer shot the dog. this story was linked in that thread but the comments weren’t directly related to this incident.
> 
> linked here if it’s of interest to you


Got it ok Thanks!


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## giebel (Jul 28, 2016)

David Winners said:


> Quite frankly, this is the wrong forum to have these conversations. Anything you say or any question you ask is just blown up.


What forum should this be addressed/discussed in? I used to go on pedigreedatbase but the discussion forum is not very active any longer.


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## K9 Pirates Lair (Oct 13, 2019)

I think it is unfair to comment on this video, like all video's in which a person is tried and convicted in the "Social Media Court System" *you don't know all the facts*.
Judgment, based on a very short video is ignorant. 

The hard facts are, like my comment or not....is that the majority of people commenting have never worked with a serious working dog, and would not know how to correct it's bad behavior. Positive reinforcement does not work with _Hard Dogs_!

I'm not condoning or condemning the actions of the officer in the video. Just pointing out some facts

Kim


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Whatever is going on in that video sure looks like an angry man who let his frustration take over. I am pretty confident that the point was made in the first blow, and all that was accomplished after that was to diminish trust that dog had in the handler. Hard dog? We don't know that. What is clear is that dog is too much for that handler. It may be that all police K9s are too much for that handler.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Maybe the dog reacted that way because it was beaten by a frustrated handler in the past and lashed out out of self preservation/fear. Speculation but I can certainly see that scenario. Handlers are not trainers. In most training sessions I’ve seen, handlers are the ones needing the corrections 99% of the time, not the dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No, we don't have all the facts. We didn't see the start of the incident. I don't think anyone said anything about feeding the dog cookies? But I haven't read the posts. And no, I am not a K9 handler nor do I pretend to be. I would imagine the dog has high possession, resource guarding, and I am assuming this incident did not happen out of the blue. There are almost always signs leading up to 'attacks'. I don't even have an issue with the dog being pinned or a fair correction or even stringing the dog up to stop the forward momentum. And if that were on video we would be the bad guys for that. But there was nothing fair about repeatedly punching the dog in the head. Let's just be real about that. Once a handler is there, the control is lost. And, just my opinion, not introducing conflict in the training to start would be a better way to take the ball away since the conflict over the possession is what started the incident to begin with. Be better. I don't think I'm not out in left field on my thoughts after talking to the K9 officers/trainers I know. 

Not my words but good ones to think about....we want these dogs to have fight and then we tell them "don't fight us"....so why are we picking fights with them instead of having a working relationship?


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

K9 Pirates Lair said:


> I think it is unfair to comment on this video, like all video's in which a person is tried and convicted in the "Social Media Court System" *you don't know all the facts*.
> Judgment, based on a very short video is ignorant.
> 
> The hard facts are, like my comment or not....is that the majority of people commenting have never worked with a serious working dog, and would not know how to correct it's bad behavior. Positive reinforcement does not work with _Hard Dogs_!
> ...


I don’t need to know all the facts to know what that officer did was inappropriate. You don‘t repeatedly punch a dog in the head. That officer lost control. Period. He was angry. Period. You also don’t have to be a rocket scientist to surmise that this probably wasn’t the first time this handler had issues with this dog.

I’m not anti-police. I have them in my family. I was also attacked by a dog as a child and almost died. I’m not against strong corrections when warranted, especially to stop an attack. That’s not what we saw. That correction was not fair or right. Nobody said anything about positive reinforcement. I sent my dog to Ivan Balabanov’s training center for a 5 week board and train. They had to use the highest level correction on an e-collar to stop my dog from attacking their Mals. I also trained with a retired K-9 trainer for the police in Florida. You do what you have to do.

You should also know a great portion of board members here have working line shepherds. Most are very familiar with aggression issues. 😏


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@IllinoisNative - I think Kim is a trainer. A very well regarded one. His post is fair.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> @IllinoisNative - I think Kim is a trainer. A very well regarded one. His post is fair.


Thanks for that info. Although I’m kind of surprised that a trainer would not condemn what we saw. What could justify repeatedly punching a dog in the head when someone is not being actively attacked? I’m genuinely curious.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IllinoisNative said:


> Thanks for that info. Although I’m kind of surprised that a trainer would not condemn what we saw. What could justify repeatedly punching a dog in the head when someone is not being actively attacked? I’m genuinely curious.


If a dog attacks you with intent to harm you, you only have 3 options. 

Manage the situation in a way that you are safe and then approach the behavior in training later in a more controlled situation. This can be easy or hard depending on the situation. We don't have that information.

Win the fight with the dog. That fight doesn't end until the fight is out of the dog. We don't have this information either. I can't see how the dog is looking up at the handler.

Lose.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

David, I totally understand this in the context of being attacked. But from what I saw, the handler was just bashing the dogs head. Is the only way to diffuse the fight in the dog to repeatedly punch it in the head?

It seems to me that the owner lost control. Although there is a very small chance I may be wrong...lol.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IllinoisNative said:


> David, I totally understand this in the context of being attacked. But from what I saw, the handler was just bashing the dogs head. Is the only way to diffuse the fight in the dog to repeatedly punch it in the head?
> 
> It seems to me that the owner lost control. Although there is a very small chance I may be wrong...lol.


I know I'm not a well respected trainer or anything, but in my extremely humble opinion, I have no idea what the beginning of the fight was. If you believe that the handler just laid down on top of the dog and started punching it in the face, then yes, that would be considered unfair by me. If the dog engaged in a continued attack against the handler, then I think a punch to the face is far better than shooting the dog.

My inexperienced look at things. Take that for what it's worth.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> If a dog attacks you with intent to harm you, you only have 3 options.
> 
> Manage the situation in a way that you are safe and then approach the behavior in training later in a more controlled situation. This can be easy or hard depending on the situation. We don't have that information.
> 
> ...


I struggle with a few parts here.

#1 the dog attacks with intent to harm you. If that is a thing that may happen, then I really feel like something is just wrong to begin with. 

#2. Win the fight. Lose the fight. Why so much fighting? Why so much conflict? Aren't they partners??

I would never ever want to have to know I might be attacked by my own dog, or face the idea of having to win a physical fight with a dog... 

If this is the dynamic I just can't help but wonder WHY. I feel like there just must be a better way. I don't understand why so much conflict.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

David, you‘re very well-respected. 😊

I certainly don’t believer the officer just laid on top of the dog. I do believe events proceeded that action...be it resource guarding, aggression, whatever. But surely there was another way to handle this situation. I’m trying to picture Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Larry Krohn, Tyler Muto laying on a dog and repeatedly bashing it in the head. Once the dog is on the ground, why continue to beat it?

And if it was that aggressive that the officer had to beat the dog, how did it make it on the force? This can’t be the first time the dog showed signs of being unstable. There was a failure somewhere.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I struggle with a few parts here.
> 
> #1 the dog attacks with intent to harm you. If that is a thing that may happen, then I really feel like something is just wrong to begin with.
> 
> ...


That is all fine and well. Yes, they have a relationship problem. It may be the fault of the handler. They may have been working on things. I have no idea. If you can figure out why from a 10 second video clip, more power to you.

I have been attacked by several dogs I was training. The first was Fama when I was training to be a handler. I don't know any working dog trainer that hasn't been bitten several times. Most have some crazy stories about attacks. 

Something that most people don't understand is the dynamic of being a handler. You get a new dog. You certify with that dog. You now have a job to do and training requirements that need to be met. It isn't often that a TD will just shut a team down to fix a problem. It is an ongoing thing and you work through the problem, training when you can with the TD, while you still do your job and train to meet requirements. It isn't a perfect situation. Many teams have ongoing issues that need addressed over time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IllinoisNative said:


> David, you‘re very well-respected. 😊
> 
> I certainly don’t believer the officer just laid on top of the dog. I do believe events proceeded that action...be it resource guarding, aggression, whatever. But surely there was another way to handle this situation. I’m trying to picture Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Larry Krohn, Tyler Muto laying on a dog and repeatedly bashing it in the head. Once the dog is on the ground, why continue to beat it?
> 
> And if it was that aggressive that the officer had to beat the dog, how did it make it on the force? This can’t be the first time the dog showed signs of being unstable. There was a failure somewhere.


That handler is a handler. He isn't any of those trainers. He isn't even a trainer. He was attacked by his dog. All those trainers would approach this in a training situation specifically addressed to deal with this situation. They may take weeks to work it out. A handler doesn't have that opportunity. They have to work with their TD, who may be in a different department altogether. 

I really can't make you understand what it means to be attacked by a dog that wants to harm you.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

David Winners said:


> That handler is a handler. He isn't any of those trainers. He isn't even a trainer. He was attacked by his dog. All those trainers would approach this in a training situation specifically addressed to deal with this situation. They may take weeks to work it out. A handler doesn't have that opportunity. They have to work with their TD, who may be in a different department altogether.
> 
> I really can't make you understand what it means to be attacked by a dog that wants to harm you.


I was attacked by a dog and almost died.

If that dog was trying to harm his handler, someone failed here.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IllinoisNative said:


> I was attacked by a dog and almost died.
> 
> If that dog was trying to harm his handler, someone failed here.


I'm sorry you experienced that.

A good 30% of these dogs want to hurt everyone until they chill out a bit and start to have a real relationship with a handler.

At the end of the day, we don't know what happened, what led up to the fight, the history of the team, the temperament of the dog or the handler, the training that had been done to mitigate the situation. All we know is that that handler was attacked, hit the dog and that the dog was sent out to a third party for training.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

violetmd said:


> I got really upset when I watched that. Hard corrections should only be administered by trainers who know what they are doing. Otherwise its not training; its abuse. I'm not sure what the dog is learning by lying on its back getting repeatedly punched in the face.


Thanks for explaining it, so I didn't have to watch. I was thinking to myself "I can think of some scenarios and some dogs that a fistfight is warranted, but I really don't wanna watch a dog get the snot beaten out of it by some rageaholic hoople head to find out if people are over-reacting"


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

David Winners said:


> A good 30% of these dogs want to hurt everyone until they chill out a bit and start to have a real relationship with a handler.


Thanks. I didn’t realize the percentage was that high. So would that be a training issue? Meaning that the dog needs more time to bond to the handler before they’re cleared to work in real life situations? I only ask because it’s the dog that usually pays the price when things go wrong. Do the handlers need more training in dealing with working dogs? I realize that this takes time and resources that many departments may not have.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

IllinoisNative said:


> Thanks. I didn’t realize the percentage was that high. So would that be a training issue? Meaning that the dog needs more time to bond to the handler before they’re cleared to work in real life situations? I only ask because it’s the dog that usually pays the price when things go wrong. Do the handlers need more training in dealing with working dogs? I realize that this takes time and resources that many departments may not have.


Everything you ever wanted to know about the ins and outs of breeding, raising, (and the culture behind it) of K9s 

Direct link to a free copy of the book in case you have trouble navigating his 1999 websitehttp://angelplace.net/Book/PoliceDogBook.pdf


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Tennessee said:


> Everything you ever wanted to know about the ins and outs of breeding, raising, (and the culture behind it) of K9s
> 
> Direct link to a free copy of the book in case you have trouble navigating his 1999 websitehttp://angelplace.net/Book/PoliceDogBook.pdf


While I love Jim's books, they don't go into detail about what it is like to be a handler, nor do they include much insight into the temperament of working dogs. 

This is not intended to degrade his work or knowledge in any way. I have nothing but respect for Jim.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

David Winners said:


> While I love Jim's books, they don't go into detail about what it is like to be a handler, nor do they include much insight into the temperament of working dogs.
> 
> This is not intended to degrade his work or knowledge in any way. I have nothing but respect for Jim.


It's been a minute since I read it, but I believe he has sections detailing the history and character of different breeds. But I could be entirely wrong.

What I was getting at though, was I suppose back handedly getting at his question of "Why are they like this?", which Jim I believe does a good job of explaining when covering the culture and the sports used to test them, along with the training they get state side. Obviously of course, intentionally bred dogs are the way they are through the choices and desires of the breeder. And obviously you know this already, but K9s are bred to win fights when lives are on the line. Accordingly, they don't make the best pets anymore than say a salty Master Guns would make the ideal dinner party guest in the Hamptons. It is what it is and I know which type I prefer to spend my time with, in both regards. 

But again it's been awhile and a heck of a lot has gone on in my life since then. I may be fusing him and a detailed analysis of Dutchies I read at one point. So I'll defer to you.

ETA: I believe it was understood in this context but I was referring to a GSD/Mal/Dutchie sent in for takedowns, not scent or dual purpose dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a dumb question. We heard what the police chief said, about the dog getting a toy-reward, and then lunged when the handler went to take the toy back. So, why did this altercation take place between a couple of semi trailers? Why didn't it take place where the training team was with their dogs and the trainer. Maybe the trainer could tell the handler how best to manage the situation. It appears the man took the dog out of the vicinity of the trainer/trainees so he could beat his dog. And this suggests that it was more retalitory and punishing than protecting ones life and protecting the dog's future. 

I don't know a whole lot about working dogs. But I do know, a shepherds tolerance for pain is so great that to dominate a dog with physical force is going to look like abuse. It seems like its always guys that think you have to stay on top of these dogs, you have to dominate them. And perhaps to have a dog that is safe to work on patrol, that dog has to know that you are the boss. But there are women handlers out there too. Smallish women with police k9s. How to they physically dominate a dog that can kill them? Somehow they have to build a relationship with a dog that can kill, has aggression, can take on 6 foot 6, 300+ pound bad guys, and do it in such a way that those dogs are safe to work in public places. How is this accomplished if one mush punch a dog in the face many times to get them to mind? 

I think it is all horse excrement. We do not need to see more than what that video showed. We do not need to see the look on the dog's face. We do not need to give this yayhoo the benefit of the doubt because he is law enforcement. If my neighbors took a video of me doing that to one of my dogs, not one of you, not one would say, "we need to see this in context" or "we need to see the look on the dog's face" or "when you have a dog that wants to do serious harm...." Sorry, ya'all would be out for blood. You'd be on your way to my place with pitch forks and torches. 

The thing is, I doubt the dog will suffer physical harm from this. But, I do think this could actually do damage to his training as a police K9. Do you think that dogs do not associate more than just the reward for the action. Some might avoid the action when the reward turned into negative punishment. The dog might be turned off of detecting drugs. Possible. And this dog is likely to face a bad guy that will punch or kick at him. If the dog can be bullied into a behavior, doesn't that make the dog less likely to continue to engage with a bad guy? I dunno. I think sometimes people need to stop and say to themselves, "What if I was 5'6", 120 pounds, and a girl, how would I respond to this dog? 

If I was 5'6 and 120 pounds, I wouldn't want a powder puff dog for a partner. I would want one bad-ass GSD, a hard working GSD, that isn't going to go belly up and pee on itself, when a bad guy starts punching or kicking it. So, you can't tell me that women get easier dogs to train as k9s. Nope, they have to manage the dog, hard dogs, without brute force. And while we aren't shoving a cookie in their mouths, I think positive reinforcement DOES work with hard dogs. Because, otherwise women would be out of luck when it comes to hard dogs. The hard dog has to choose to follow a leader. And a child or small woman can be a leader of a dog, any temperament-type. Maybe they're even better at it than some men. Maybe because they can't fall back on the choking the dog out stuff.


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## K9 Pirates Lair (Oct 13, 2019)

Actually I'm not a trainer, I'm still working on being a good handler. My wife is great trainer, I am a former K9 Handler of a PSD, as I said I do not condone or condemn the actions of the officer. As for his actions "being out of control", he was at no time out of control in the video.

If you watch the video the officer was attempting to correct or submit the dog in a fashion that I am unaware of. But he was not out of control.

I would like to know what his thought process was and why he continued to do what he did. In my opinion, once a dog has submitted and ceased the unwanted behavior.....*the correction should end*.

And again, there is not enough information to conclude what actually happened and why. Just my opinion.

Mr. Kim Moore


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I find it ironic that in the thread where the officer shot and killed his dog because he was attacked, people side with the officer. I am 100% against killing that dog and I stated that. 

In this case, the handler was attacked and he chose to win the fight with the dog instead of shooting it, and people side with the dog and say that the handler is abusive.

@selzer they were out training by themselves. This is common as they have to meet mandatory detection training schedules and there often aren't enough handlers to do group training. The actual trainer may be in another department or may be a third party.

There are very hard dogs out there that are not handler aggressive. When you are selecting a dog for a handler, you take the size and temperament of both the handler and the dog into account. As an example, there were 2 handler aggressive dogs in my handler class. The smaller one came to me because of my personality and experience. The larger, who was a 105lb Dutchie, went to a very large handler. It's important that a handler can physically manage the dog, even on a leash, when necessary.

In no way am I advocating this as a training method. Once the dog comes after you, you can't hit rewind. You have to deal with the situation. 

I'll post this question. Just say you are watching your friend's dog for a few weeks while they are on vacation. You know the dog. Get along pretty well. One day you put food down for him and you accidentally step on his paw when turning to leave and he attacks you with intent to harm you. What do you do?

While I completely agree that positive training is the way out of the relationship problem and resource guarding, you're not going to click your way out of this dog's mouth.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Not going to lie. I've punched a few dogs in the head. They have hard heads. I'm fairly convinced it hurt me more then them but my message was clear. 
Without more context no one can say anything, and while my gut says there is always a better way, my experience says sometimes you just need to get the message across. 
I had a dog latched onto my arm for minutes, at least 3-4. It wasn't a mistake, it wasn't a redirection, it wasn't frustration. It was an intentional bite, meant to do damage. 
The methods I used to get him off might have looked abusive in a 10 second video. I didn't shoot him, but if I had had a gun it might have been tempting.
Had I been more experienced I would have shut him down before the bite occurred, very likely in a manner much like the handler in the video did. Because teaching him to carry a toy and using obedience as a go to put us where we ended up. He had no real respect and all he had learned in the preceding weeks was that I was nothing. 
I was sitting down when the bite occurred, he was laying on the floor beside me. I told him he was a good boy. He growled. I said get your toy. 
Game on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9 Pirates Lair said:


> Actually I'm not a trainer, I'm still working on being a good handler. My wife is great trainer, I am a former K9 Handler of a PSD, as I said I do not condone or condemn the actions of the officer. As for his actions "being out of control", he was at no time out of control in the video.
> 
> If you watch the video the officer was attempting to correct or submit the dog in a fashion that I am unaware of. But he was not out of control.
> 
> ...



Ahhh. I just saw Jim had recommended you in a thread at one point. That means something. 🙂

This was the point I poorly tried to make. The dog is on the ground and pinned. The punches come methodically while the dog is pinned. What is being gained by continuing to hit him?

I'm sure I'm using the wrong terminology with the word control. I don't mean it as chaotic out of control. After more coffee I may be able to elaborate on my thinking.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I was thinking about something David said here when this thread first started. I think in this thread there is a perception that the officer was in control the entire time, no threat was posed to his life, and he had a plethora of options. In the other thread, there is a perception that the officer had no other options and was fighting for his life. I don’t believe either is 100% right or wrong. I know that these dogs coming after their handlers is a common occurrence. My question here is what are these handlers being taught to do in these situations. Typically people are able to more calmly handle situations they are trained for, and make more rational decisions. This video looks like the handler was trying to submit the dog or get him to give up on the fight. It’s hard for me to make an accurate judgment based only on what we have.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> That handler is a handler. He isn't any of those trainers. He isn't even a trainer. He was attacked by his dog. All those trainers would approach this in a training situation specifically addressed to deal with this situation. They may take weeks to work it out. A handler doesn't have that opportunity. They have to work with their TD, who may be in a different department altogether.
> 
> I really can't make you understand what it means to be attacked by a dog that wants to harm you.


I have also been attacked by a dog that meant to harm me and it sure did send me to the emergency room. Mine was a new dog I was checking in for a day of daycare. So I do know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of it. I've also been attacked or had attempted attacks by horses where if you didn't call their bluff and not let them intimidate you they might kill you just for the heck of it.

When the dog attacked me I did not fight back. My instinct was that fighting back would make it worse. Also the dog had already crushed my dominant hand so I was at a pretty big disadvantage there. The dog absolutely had the better of me and probably would have hurt me much worse if not for the owner being able to pull it off. This all happened within minutes of meeting the person and dog and owner had not even left yet. If I could have fought back...if I had thought it would help...I would have and I don't think it is wrong to defend yourself. Had I been alone when that dog went for me I would have done most anything to get it off me, I'm sure.

This video clip really didnt look like self defense...it looked like a guy trying to prove a point. Based on some of the things you have said it sounds to me like the whole system needs a major overhaul.




David Winners said:


> I find it ironic that in the thread where the officer shot and killed his dog because he was attacked, people side with the officer. I am 100% against killing that dog and I stated that.
> 
> In this case, the handler was attacked and he chose to win the fight with the dog instead of shooting it, and people side with the dog and say that the handler is abusive.
> 
> ...


If the relationship between handlers and their dogs is often this combative, then I still feel the whole system needs help. That just doesn't sound good for the people or the dogs.

What I saw in the video was a guy who had total physical control of his dog by pinning it, then released a pinned leg to punch it in the face, then re pin. That doesn't immediately strike me as self defense. What it looked like honestly is the way the officers pin and then hit subjects resisting arrest. How/where that is the right response in dog training I really don't know.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There is no single system no revamp. It's not like all departments, vendors, trainers, handlers, situations are the same. The quality of handlers, trainers, dogs and equipment varies wildly. 

The relationship is not often this combative. Where did you read that? I said it's happened to me twice in a couple hundred dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I say context. That dog is either going to learn, real quick, not to attack the good guys, or it'll have to be destroyed. Within that context, the handler is only trying to save the dog's life. Four second video clip, clearly a halfhearted correction. Maybe there was more, maybe what wasn't caught on video was horrific? But judging from the 4 seconds I am able to see, I think the world would be a better place if we all spent a little more time just minding our own business. On that note, why wasn't the officer wearing a mask? Isn't that illegal in CA?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I say let hero with the camera try correcting the dog next time. Let's see how that works out lol..


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> There is no single system no revamp. It's not like all departments, vendors, trainers, handlers, situations are the same. The quality of handlers, trainers, dogs and equipment varies wildly.
> 
> The relationship is not often this combative. Where did you read that? I said it's happened to me twice in a couple hundred dogs.



"A good 30% of these dogs want to hurt everyone until they chill out a bit and start to have a real relationship with a handler."

"I have been attacked by several dogs I was training. The first was Fama when I was training to be a handler. I don't know any working dog trainer that hasn't been bitten several times. Most have some crazy stories about attacks."

Maybe those statements don't equate to "often", which was my word...but these are examples of what got me thinking about it being a combative relationship. I'm not even clear on why 1/3 of these dogs just want to hurt everyone.

If everything varies so wildly maybe that is part of the problem, how can the dog even know what to expect. Maybe it needs some standardization and expert intervention/guidance. I realize that's a pie in the sky idea but that's how I think. For the welfare of the handlers and the dogs, it seems like there is lot of room for improvement.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know there are a lot of police dogs out there and a lot of handlers. We hear of a handful of cases each year of brutality toward the dogs. Sometimes we hear of dogs being killed by their handlers for coming at them -- handler aggression. Maybe that is an outcome of breeding for aggression. Maybe some of these dogs have no business training for police work because their temperament is not suitable. Maybe in a different circumstance these dogs would be fine. I don't know. But I don't believe the answer is to turn a blind eye at something that looks abusive because the abuser is a police officer, and maybe we do not get it because we have never trained a police dog.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

giebel said:


> I am angered about this recent incident on so many levels. Particularly the quote from the Captain who deems it appropriate for the K9 to be punched as a correction for aggressive behavior and not following directives from the handler. In my opinion the whole k9 department of Vacaville needs to be re evaluated if they think this is what k9 dog training is.
> Dog Taken To ‘Third-Party Handler' After Vacaville Officer Seen Punching K9 Partner During Training


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

I DONT CARE WHAT EXCUSE ANYONE OR THE POLICE USE, NOR DO I NEED TO SEE WHAT LED UP TO THIS HORRIBLE TREATMENT-THAT IS NO WAY TO TREAT A DOG FOR ANY REASON-THIS IS NOT CORRECTION-IT IS COMPLETE ABUSE OF THE WORST KIND BY A PERSON WHO HAS NO RIGHT BEING AROUND ANY ANY ANIMAL AND HE NEEDS ANGER MANAGEMENT PLUS BOTH COP AND CAPTAIN NEEDS TO BE REMOVED FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR EVER AND THE COP NEEDS TO BE PUT IN JAIL FOR 10 YEARS AND A $$$$100;0000 FINE-YOU DONT EVER, *EVER** PUNCH AN ANIMAL IN THE FACE/HEAD UNLESS YOU WANT TO KILL IT!!!!


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

So, I have been around k9handlers for a while now. Went to workshops with them, watched them train and work their dogs and frankly, the majority shouldnt have dogs. They dont put the time in, mandatory training time is a joke. The dogs are either too much or not enough. The handlers don’t have the necessary skills to even maintain training thats already there.
How more people dont get hurt is beyond me.
Now that is whats going on locally. When i see their presentations its honestly embarrassing to watch. But hey, regular folks dont know. They think its cool to watch. So whatever 🤷‍♀️

But when you know, you know and you cant unsee it. There are very few k9handlers who truly know their stuff and went with time. The majority has no clue what they are doing and are stuck in the stoneages. But hey, they are k9handlers so they must know, right? 🙄


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