# Outside Dogs?



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I was just wondering what your guys' take on this was. 

Personally, I don't see the point of having a yard decoration that you have to feed, water, pick up after, and listen to bark because they're bored and lonely. (This is what I'm asking about when I say outside dog - one that never comes inside, just sits in the yard). 

Why would someone want an outside dog? Just to have a dog? I don't get it.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

i don't get it either. my friends in laws have this lab who's stuck out side all day and night. She feels bad so she lets her in when they're not home, provided Indy listens.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

Most of the time I don't agree with keeping dogs outside. 

However....

When I had working Border Collies they were always kept outside, they were not kenneled, they were free to roam the farm as they pleased. But unlike most dogs who are just kept in a back yard, these dogs were worked everyday; moving herds of sheep to one field to the next. They got filthy, covered in mud and sheep poo, just not practical for living in a house. Plus I don’t even think they would even settle in the house, they enjoyed hunting voles during the night. 

Farm dogs, or working dogs who have something (a job) to do during the day, yes I think it’s acceptable to keep outside. Dogs who are just yard ornaments or “protection” I don’t see the point. My GSD is kept in the house.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Greydusk said:


> Farm dogs, or working dogs who have something (a job) to do during the day, yes I think it’s acceptable to keep outside.


That, I think is fine. But when it's just a living lawn ornament, I don't see the point. Not fair to the dog, money pit for the person, IMO. Just don't get it.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't have a problem with it if all of the dog's needs are met and it prefers that living situation.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Greydusk said:


> Most of the time I don't agree with keeping dogs outside.
> 
> However....
> 
> ...


that's different, that I agree with, it's the people that have dogs kept outside, but don't do anything with them that's what I don't get nor agree with.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Absolutely no idea why someone would get a dog and just leave them outside all day. Makes zero sense to me.

I actually didn't know people still did this kind of stuff. I thought it was kind of an old school way of thinking by keeping dogs outside in their dog house, but I guess it's still pretty common in parts of this country from what's mentioned on this board. 

I dont think I know anyone that leaves their dogs outside on a permanent basis.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

My last 2 dogs were outside dogs, but we let them in if it rained and they were able to go in and out of the garage as they pleased. Molly and Tanner are more inside than outside. 

But if its a situation like Greydusk described then I don't mind. My cousin lives on a bunch of land and they have goats and such and have Great Prynese(sp?) who is always outside, they bring him inside sometimes, but he rather be outside.

But keeping a dog outside 24/7 for "decoration" or "protection" is not right, IMO.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Syaoransbear said:


> I don't have a problem with it if all of the dog's needs are met and it prefers that living situation.


I don't either. Actually, I find more unnerving the "dog can't be NEVER in the (fenced) yard alone". I don't keep the dogs only outside, but they are not glued to me all day either, less in summer.

I don't see the point of having an animal if you will not let them be animals or will keep them crated indoor 8 or more hours every day, that is me.

I think many of you tend to forget that the concept of dogs, at least big dogs, as indoor pets is a cultural thing. Very few places on the world share that view and it's something recent. If the cultural change is the same related to dyed poodles, purse chihuahuas and "furkids" then I feel that if we end up copying that here it will very much like opening Mc Donald franchises in my town.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Greydusk said:


> Farm dogs, or working dogs who have something (a job) to do during the day, yes I think it’s acceptable to keep outside. Dogs who are just yard ornaments or “protection” I don’t see the point. My GSD is kept in the house.


Ditto. Its completely different with working dogs, than someone who just buys a dog and leaves them on a chain in the backyard. There is a house behind me with a dog like that, drives me nuts  It you want security, get a %Y^$% security system, not a dog to chain up.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

We have a doggy door, so the dogs go in and out as they please. It's kind of funny, 'cause sometimes Shelbye will come in covered in dirt and dead grass, looking happy as could be. :rolleyes2:


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

It doesn't give me heartburn, a lot of people in this area have outdoor dogs. When I first moved here I was the oddball for having GERMAN SHEPHERDS living in the house!

My first dog, a Cocker, was an outside dog ... his choice not ours. He HATED being in the house ... he stay in for a couple minutes then he'd be at the door whinning to be let back out. On bitter cold nights he was forced to sleep in my room, something that made him very unhappy ... he'd stay up half the night pacing and panting and crying. FWIW he had access to an under-the-house garage that had a doggy door, a dog house, warm bedding, etc.

My next door neighbors of 15 plus years have outdoor dogs that have access to their garage, beds, etc. On bitter cold nights they put a heater in the garage. The dogs are happy, the neighbors spend almost all day outside working in the yard until it gets dark. The dogs always seem happy!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Molly hates getting dirty.lol


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

I've got a combination. Some are just outside dogs, and some are both inside and outside dogs. I think it's wierd when people have indoors only dogs. 

Here's a couple of my outdoor only dogs...(they have been indoors on occasion, but not very often) The "job" is stock guardians. Their charge will be the smaller livestock. My Blue heeler is cow dog. My border is actually an "indoor" dog. Actually it is with me all the time, so when I am in, he is, and when I am out he is as well. He's super sensitive (border trait). My lab and german shepherd will come and go as they wish too, except I still have my gsd pretty confined untill her treatments are over.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

A lot of people get puppies on impulse or because they're cute. As soon as they get big, make messes, and start to shed/drool/hump/eat stuff off counters, they get chained out.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Oh I totally agree with the "yard decoration" thing. I guess maybe some people just like the idea of having a dog but don't actually want to work or live with one?

I've seen several dogs like that in my neighborhood, I feel sorry for them. I live in the city and these were not "working dogs" they were "sit in a tiny backyard all day dogs".

Of course just because a dog is an "inside dog" doesn't mean they have it a lot better than the "outside dogs". My next-door neighbors for example. They got a Lab mix puppy. I tried to help them with her, I lent them a crate and explained how to crate train properly, gave them a bunch of puppy books and so on. They left the puppy in the crate all day, except when she was outside and then they wondered why she was so "hyper" when she was let out of the crate, especially as she got into the teenage phase. They ended up taking her to a shelter when she was about 14 months old.


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## crewchief_chick (Feb 2, 2011)

My folks live on a farm, and their dogs live outside, because my step mother now has allergies, that unfortunately pet dander in the house increases the symptoms and issues. They are very happy outside, they have their houses, lots of bedding, toys, and they follow my dad around, into the mill, they get tennis balls thrown for them (if they havent forgotten where they buried them), and they are free to chase the gray diggers (kind of a ground squirrel that digs under foundations and creates havoc). that and the coveys of quail that come visit. Thats how it is where I am from...dogs live outside, unless they are spoiled rotten...or they are utterly housebroke. We have dogs in our local town that wander down to the cafe, and lay out on the bench, to get loved on by all the town kids as they walk home. We have dogs that go pick the kids up from school and take them home. Granted, this is a town of 90 people. No local police, no animal control. There is only a yellow flasher at the school for traffic control.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

I have a problem with the dogs chained up in the back yard far corner away from everything and get tossed food once every day or so. But dogs that are outside alot I'm ok with so long as they get out to do stuff.

I have dogs outside in a kennel (building with runs) and dogs in a fenced-in backyard that come inside too. My dogs get out and go places, get trained and do much more than most dogs kept inside while their owners work. I'm happy. My dogs are happy. I don't think it is so much where a dog lives, but *how* it lives.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs Deserve Better is trying to get dogs off chains. Dogs Deserve Better Home Page: No Chained Dogs!
I think a farm/working dog situation is healthy, the dogs mental state is much better than a dog that is tethered to a chain 24/7. It is cruel and inhumane, IMO.
If I see a dog chained out, I'll place a DDB flier in the owners paperbox or front door. A dog that lives in a run that never gets mental stimulation is living a sad life. 
Many times a dog is outdoors, has no manners inside and smells, so that is the excuse of the owner to not let the dog in.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

The dogs here that live outside fall into 2 categories: chained/kenneled 24/7 or just dumped ootside and left to roam wherever.

I don't agree with either. My neighbor has a cocker that is a kennel dog. If they want to take his out of his run, they actually give him valium to knock him out. He is never messed with besides given food and water. When he gets too matted, they drug him and shave off all his hair. He is even fed with one of the big "vacatuon feeders" that only has to be filled once a week. So that is about how often he sees people.

Other neighbors have dogs that roam the neighborhhod killing livestock and playing in traffic. There might be a pan of food dumped outside if the owners happen to notice that it is empty. 

Working dogs or those whose owners spend a lot of time outside with them are an entirely different subject. I think the OP was talking about those that only see people for a few minutes at feeding time and don't ever get any exercise.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The OP didn't mentioned any case, so I think it is fair to point out that not any dog that you see outside or is not an indoor dog, necessarilly is a neglected dog.


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## ValleyGirl (Dec 31, 2010)

Catu - I agree. I am a retiree from the city now living in a rural area. My dogs are indoors or outdoors depending on where I am but it is common in this agricultural area to leave farm dogs outside even if they do not have a strict herding type task. My next door neighbor was one who let his GSDs stay outside with access to a porch enclosed on two sides. They went everywhere with him in his truck and around his farm. They seemed very happy and adored him. He and his dogs are all now deceased but I cared for the last dog twice a day for 7 months while the neighbor lived in a nursing home. There was no fence and Sheba could easily have tried to follow me home to my farm but did not. She seemed to be happy just watching her farm and waiting for Carl to come home.

That said, my problem with some farm people like Carl is that they think a dog, like a person, should die naturally. In pain and suffering if need be. I am glad I was able to take care of Sheba at the end of her life --she was about 12 -- with evaluation and support of a vet who did everything pro bono, give her a humane ending when her arthritis made the cold weather too hard to deal with. Sheba is the main reason I got my own GSD right before Sheba died.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I now perfer for my dogs to be in the house with me, but there was a point in my life that I had outside dogs.

I didn't chain em up. In fact, Lucy was the first dog we had in a kennel. All our dogs of the past just stayed around the house. 

I think it's unfair to catergorize outside dogs as ALWAYS having bad lives. I understand the chaining up and not feeding, but that's on the owner, not the fact that the dog is outside.

I've learned there are some breeds that do well outside, but there are breeds that thrive inside with the family.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Well, regardless if the dog is happy or unhappy, if he's not working at some kind of job, what is the point of having a dog if he's kept outside and has little to no interaction with the owners? I, too, do not see the point of having a dog if all you do is keep him outside and ignore him 99% of the time (unless he is doing an actual job out there, whatever that may be).


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I think it depends on the situation. Jax is my first indoor GSD (because we have no yard at all)... I was told they're not "inside dogs" but I didn't listen because I've had GSDs and other dogs before  ...I think I made a mistake... as such, we're now looking for a property with acerage. If he got his way, he'd be on our unsheltered rooftop patio all day long, rain or shine. 
When we get our yard, I'll likely get a lot more animals and the dogs will be outdoor dogs with their own area in the house with a dog door.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Another thing about outside dogs is not all of them have little to no interaction with their owners. A good number might, but not all of them.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

Dogs should for the most part be outside where circumstances alloW . PlayinG . SleepinG. ****tinG.protecting .

Orherwise .........get A poodle !


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't like seeing dogs left outside 24/7 or even near it except in the case of sled dogs. Other than that, nay. 



Greydusk said:


> Most of the time I don't agree with keeping dogs outside.
> 
> However....
> 
> ...


I don't agree with this at all either. I have a relative with a farm that I have lived at and worked on many a summer and they have a flock of working BCs, a cattle dog, and a chessie. ALL of them work flocks of sheep, herds of cattle, etc. everyday, get filthy dirty, then get cleaned off and come inside. OR come inside and just get cleaned up behind. It's a farm, it's going to get dirty. Clean your dogs, clean your house, and live with it. My thought is that you chose that lifestyle, don't punish the dogs for it. Yes, dogs are going to get accustomed to living outside and won't fit in well if you bring them inside all of a sudden, but you did that to them, it wasn't their choice. 

This is my take on outside dogs.


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## Rosa (Sep 18, 2010)

One of my dogs stays outside all the time by choice.

The other 3 stay indoors but obviously go outside for playtime, toliet, etc.

Not for love nor money can i get the other fella to come in the house he just never liked it, rarely he will come in the kitchen get some grub and out he goes again but usually the door is left open he will never come in.

He has his own shed built for him not a kennel but a block built shed where he sleeps on couches with heaters included. It's like his own little house!

If he prefers it then i don't see the problem with forcing him into the house, even when he was a puppy he was the same he is now 12 years old! I don't think i'm going change him now


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I don't like seeing dogs left outside 24/7 or even near it except in the case of sled dogs. Other than that, nay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


now this situation is a rarity.when you have a 16 to 18 hour work day,cleaning all your working dogs at the end of it is just not feasible.The dogs are a working tool and they have their place in a working scenario.It is humans who made the choice to bring dogs into our own enviroment.We took them out of theirs.We forced them to adapt to our living situations and cultural likes and dislikes.Its not unnatural to have outside working dogs.Some go on to say that it ruins the dogs working ability with livestock to get too cosy with a pet type mentality.They have a job to do and being a house pet is not what they are on the farm for. I do not agree with chained dogs that never see human interaction and affection because we created these animals to crave it by breeding it into them for our own needs and wants.To deprive them of it is cruel and poor ownership.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I think it varies by dog. I currently have one outside dog. She likes to be outside. She is not neglected or chained she is in our fenced in yard and has a doggy door to our large shop and a handmade sturdy wood doghouse. She has her fluffy pillow and she is happy. She would rather be outside than have to be crated in the house all the time because she gets grouchy with our cats. She actually likes to be alone(away from cats/Jamie). It is weird when she wants love she lets us know other than that she is really more of a loner. She will get her love from us and then she goes and lays in the sun. She is not an active dog anyway. She does not follow us around like Jamie and Samson. Her fav. activity is just laying in the sun. 

We have always had a mixture of inside/outside dogs and all were happy, healthy and well cared for. It really does vary by dog and the situation and no, not all outside dogs are neglected and unloved. We love all of our animals(inside or outside) and strive to have each one live healthy and happy lives.


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## mygsdandme (Jan 4, 2011)

Achielles UD said:


> I have a problem with the dogs chained up in the back yard far corner away from everything and get tossed food once every day or so. .
> 
> I have a problem with this too...short story: we had some neighbors a few years back that got an Akita. That dog was chained in a very small area on the side of their house 24/7. They had no interaction with that dog, I doubt if the dog had ever been to the vet. That poor dog was just a prisoner in that little area. They had a doghouse for him, however it was way too small for him and half his body would stick out when he tried to lay in it. They would just throw his food on the ground, the same ground that he peed and pooped on, just disgusting. They had a big tall bucket of water for him, problem was when the bucket was only half full he couldn't reach the water because the bucket was too tall and they didn't check it daily. I felt so bad for that dog. I use to go out and talk to him through the fence and give him treats so he would at least know a little kindness in his miserable life. I would fill his water bucket up over the fence so at least he could reach the water. In the hot summer months I would go out and hose him down over the fence to cool him off. I called animal control on them, they came out and saw that he had shelter(too small for him) and a water bucket so they didn't do anything. This was pure neglect as far as I'm concerned, anyway they moved away. I don't know what happened to the dog or if they even brought him to their new house.
> Sorry this so long but everytime I think about that dog I want to strangle those ignorant people. Grrrr! This is the type of outdoor dog situation that I don't agree with. It is really sad.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My next-door neighbor has two outside GSDs. They bark ALL THE **** TIME. We can't even enjoy our backyard because every time we go out there, her dogs are barking at us. They've dug far enough underneath the fence that they can stick their whole upper bodies under it and watch us do whatever we're doing, barking and snarling the whole time. I hate it. 

When it was 107 degrees f this summer, they were outside. When it was sleeting and close to zero, they were outside. Barking.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

my dogs are inside dogs. They prefer it that way and so do we but you better believe when we're in an area we can safely leave them outside, they're out there racing around the yard like maniacs. When we're in CO, the dogs are allowed to spend the day outside but because of where we are now, they're definitely inside dogs because its either too hot and we've yet to find a flea med thats works consistently without causing skin issues or other reactions and we're also not allowed to leave the dogs outside unsupervised or even with supervision for more than 10 minutes at a time. It all depends on the situation i guess. I know some dogs choose to be outside dogs and some choose inside or a combo. If the dogs are happy and taken care of and the owners are okay with it, it works out. But i dont understand outside only dogs thought thats me.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> I was just wondering what your guys' take on this was.
> 
> Personally, I don't see the point of having a yard decoration that you have to feed, water, pick up after, and listen to bark because they're bored and lonely. (This is what I'm asking about when I say outside dog - one that never comes inside, just sits in the yard).
> 
> ...


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

People down the street from me I don't think ever bring their dog in. I walk by there everyday and hear the dog barking, day and night. Same with the people around the block from me. They have a GSD that is always outside, he gets food and water and some9Hardly any from what I can see) interaction, but he ALWAYS BARKS.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> now this situation is a rarity.when you have a 16 to 18 hour work day,cleaning all your working dogs at the end of it is just not feasible.


I suppose some people don't want to, but I've seen proof that it IS feasible. You either clean them, or your house is messy and you go inside and clean. Whichever. You've already been working all day, what's 10-20 more minutes? You're not bathing and grooming them, you're rinsing them off.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I suppose some people don't want to, but I've seen proof that it IS feasible. You either clean them, or your house is messy and you go inside and clean. Whichever. You've already been working all day, what's 10-20 more minutes? You're not bathing and grooming them, you're rinsing them off.


Nothin' like sleeping with 6 freshly hosed dogs that have been rolling in sheep poop all day long LOL


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## ltsgsd (Jan 31, 2009)

I think many people who mean well forget that what they do with there dog does not fit with everyones lifestyle or what there dogs like. My daughter and I have asthma. My GSD and my beagle do give us trouble breathing at times. These two stay outside most of the time and enjoy it. They are fed well, cared for and have daily inteaction with us. In the heat and ice cold thay come in but oherwise love outdoors. My two poodles stay inside but I have to pry them back in when they go outside. We let them have run of the fenced in back yard with the other two and it is fun to see them all play together. Now, the GSD is a working dog so he gets attention daily and he absolutely lives for it. 
I hate it when people see a dog outside and immediatly judge that house as abusing the poor doggies. Having studied dogs and trained for 11 years now, it is us who imposed living indoors on a dog. Saying that I also agree that chaining a dog is cruel and should not be done.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> Nothin' like sleeping with 6 freshly hosed dogs that have been rolling in sheep poop all day long LOL


Lol, well once they're hosed the sheep poop is gone, so all that's left is wet dog. BUT, any farmer in their right mind has a porch the dogs can stay on during dinner until they're dry.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I just love it, people who leave their dogs in crates or in the house alone for eight to ten hours, and then come home, let the dog potty, and crate them again while they have an evening out. Come home spend two hours with the dog and go to bed, to be repeated, five days a week, and these people are saying that a farmer or shepherd or police officer who works WITH their dog 8-16 hours a day, should not come home and kennel the dog outside. 

What is the difference? 

The difference is that the farmer or police officer probably spends more TIME with the dog doing somthing MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY challenging (for the dog), than the bleeding hearts that see the poor pooch in the kennel and thinks how awful is that. 

I would think that after a good long day at work, the dog would LIKE to relax in its kennel, get a drink of water, eat its dinner, and rest in its properly sized dog house. 

For a working dog, it is not always a good choice to have the dog in the house where the temperature is seventy some degrees. They may be working in twenty or ten degree weather, or in ninety degree weather. When dogs are left outside, their coats will fill in, and they will grow a layer of fat to help protect them from their current environment. 

Lastly, I do not think it matters much if a dog is crated in the house for the night or in the yard in a kennel. The owner is sleeping. If the owner is allowing the dog to lie with him in bed or in a crate or bed next to his bed, perhaps that is quality time, but if the dog is crated in a utility room, the living room, the garage, basement, or breezeway, what is the difference between that and outside? 

What matters is those hours that the owner is home and coherent. Because we are humans, we think that to be left outside is the ultimate abandonment, but to a dog, that need not be the case at all. 

When I have a new litter, to provide a safe atmosphere for the dam, I leave the rest of my crew outside for a week or two. They have no problem with that at all. They LIKE it out there. Even in bitter cold when I rush home to bring everyone in, they are champing on the bit to get back outside by 6:30 in the AM. They do not want to wait until it is light out. 

I was sick the other day, and decided to bring my puppies, Dolly and Joy in and leave the others out, fed and watered them. I brought Joy and Dolly in and fed them inside. Dolly was in first and finished her meal while I was out feeding the others. I came in and she was all excited to go back out again. I opened her crate, and she made a b-line to the door. I took her out and put her in the indoor outdoor patio kennel, but she would have been just as happy in her outdoor kennel. 

They do not need to be inside as much as we want them to want to be inside.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

Selzer - the voice of sanity !!  *two thumbs up *


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Agreed, great post, Selzer! Rem would live outside if I let him, cold, wind, snow - pfft, no effect on him. He's happier out there, I have to beg him to come in. My deed restrictions prohibit people from having a dog outside all night or building a kennel or even a doghouse, otherwise I'd be inclined to indulge him.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with working or farm dogs living outside. Where I live, everyone's got a farm dog living outdoors - and they are by no means neglected or unloved, and their owners are not lazy, either. My horse trainer's Aussie lives outside - the dog is a working ranch dog, spends all day glued to her master, but at night, she stays outside. Yes, the dog gets filthy every day. EVERY day. Washing it would be useless. By the time her fur dried, she'd be in dirt again at 5 am. And you know what? I have NEVER seen a happier, healthier dog. She's 10 and still herding the steer.

Dogs are animals, not people, not hothouse plants. We humanize them too much. Obviously you can't leave a Chihuahua chained outside 24/7, but that's a vast difference from someone's working BC sleeping in it's doghouse or kennel at night. I don't support the average pet owner chaining the family dog in the backyard it's entire life - but I also strongly disagree that other types of owners are somehow negligent or inhumane because they keep their dogs outside.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

The majority of people that responded are against dogs that are chained and have no interaction. Outside working dogs are completely different... 

I also see no difference between an outdoor chained dog, and an indoor crated 20 hours a day. If you aren't going to care for the dog, why get it?! I have a set of roommates that have 2 pit bulls. I NEVER see the dogs out. They are crated in their bedroom probably 20 hours a day. Meanwhile the couple, neither of which works, sit on the couch and watch tv all day... And then they make comments about how well behaved my dogs are, but they don't want to let theirs out because they're just so crazy... Well I'd be crazy too if I was locked up 20 hours a day!!!! Its no different than the dog on a chain being neglected. In both cases its wrong, indoor or out its irrelevant. 

The dog on a chain in the corner of the yard is typically what people think of by "outdoor dog." Its what I think of, I classify working dogs or the examples given in this thread as being completely different.


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Dogs Deserve Better is trying to get dogs off chains. Dogs Deserve Better Home Page: No Chained Dogs!
> I think a farm/working dog situation is healthy, the dogs mental state is much better than a dog that is tethered to a chain 24/7. It is cruel and inhumane, IMO.
> If I see a dog chained out, I'll place a DDB flier in the owners paperbox or front door. A dog that lives in a run that never gets mental stimulation is living a sad life.
> Many times a dog is outdoors, has no manners inside and smells, so that is the excuse of the owner to not let the dog in.


Dogs are flexible. they don't have to be exclusively inside or outside dogs. And if an owner has the dog outside to protect his property, that is fine too. GSDs have been known as guard dogs in the not so distance past.

Some don't have an interest in a lap dog in the house. That's not a crime. 

As for the DDB website, I strongly disagree with applying a Nelson Mandela quote made in regards to disenfranchised people to dogs. 

IMO dogs are dogs that have a place in our lives. For me they should never be on par with humans. Equating dogs on chains to Apartheid doesn't compute.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

selzer said:


> They do not need to be inside as much as we want them to want to be inside.


Great words!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My GSD is crated for about 2-3 hours a day. He has a very large crate that he can fully stand up and turn around in and he still has plenty of room. 

I dont like the idea of dogs being left outside unattended. There are too many things dangers outside IMO. People poison dogs, they steal them and who knows what they do with them wether it's selling them, abusing them or using them as fighting/baiting dogs. Weather conditions are also a danger. Or kids that throw rocks and poke the dogs with sticks. (This weekend I found ALOT of chicken in my yard, I do not eat chicken, someone threw it in my yard, I made sure I picked all of it up before letting my dog out because it could have been poisoned.)

Even when I let my dog out he does not go outside alone. Wether it's raining, snowing, hot or cold, I always go outside with him.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

For sure, in the case of all the GSDs here past and present, they never chose outside for very long unless we were there also.

The nonsense that can go on if one has neighbors is just awful, also.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know of only a couple dogs that live outside. They really would rather be inside with their people than out in a lonely kennel. 


> Dogs are flexible. they don't have to be exclusively inside or outside dogs. And if an owner has the dog outside to protect his property, that is fine too. GSDs have been known as guard dogs in the not so distance past.
> 
> Some don't have an interest in a lap dog in the house. That's not a crime.
> 
> ...


I don't think the DDB site was quoting to compare human suffering with dogs suffering. 
It's quoted to inspire those to help dogs get off chains. Did you look at the site beyond that?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Samba said:


> For sure, in the case of all the GSDs here past and present, they never chose outside for very long unless we were there also.
> 
> The nonsense that can go on if one has neighbors is just awful, also.


Yes. And every dog I have ever visited who was outdoors always tried to follow me inside if they were able. 

And any former outside foster I have had has NO desire to go outside and often initially won't go without me just to potty because they don't want to be left there. That would be 100% of those. 

Farm dogs around here do not live a good life. Good to know some do.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I can't say I agree with your post a bit Selzer. You're trying to justify what you do with your own dogs, but you're comparing them to bad owners that keep their dogs inside crated with no interaction. We're not talking about bad indoor owners here, we're talking about bad owners or the right and wrong way (in our opinions) to KEEP a dog. And your dogs AREN'T worked 16 hours a day, so how are you justifying that?

I realize if you [general] keep your dogs outside for most of their lives, many will come to accept and adapt to it, so it's no doubt that Selzer's dogs (and those with other anecdotes) are eager to get back outside. I realize some dogs truely cannot calm down in a house and behave/calm down when outside, and I should have made an exception in my original post for that, like with Lillie's dog. 

However, I don't feel there is anything worthwhile to keeping a dog outside under general circumstances. 1. It's unsafe 2. Dogs would rather be more NEAR their people. So why are people doing it, because it's convenient? Don't want to wash their dog before they come inside, don't want to seperate dogs from puppies? Owning dogs is not meant to be convenient. It's meant to give both dog and human better enjoyment out of life. 

AND, I don't appreciate being grouped into the mass of people that crate their dogs for 8 hours and don't do anything with them. I don't think that's the case with anyone on this board, and it certainly isn't the case with me, regardless of my opinion on the matter. My dog isn't crated, and our schedule revolves around him and taking care of HIS needs and enjoyments. If I put him outside for an hour by himself he'd probably have a heart attack.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> AND, I don't appreciate being grouped into the mass of people that crate their dogs for 8 hours and don't do anything with them. I don't think that's the case with anyone on this board, and it certainly isn't the case with me, regardless of my opinion on the matter.


Generalizations is exactly what I'm against. I do crate, and I do let my dogs outside. As much as I don't like being mass grouped with the people that keep crated their dogs all day either, we who leave our dogs to enjoy being only dogs outside don't like to being mass grouped with the people who keep their dogs with no interaction all day long.



DJEtzel said:


> If I put him outside for an hour by himself he'd probably have a heart attack.


That has a lot to do with early training and habituation.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

selzer said:


> I just love it, people who leave their dogs in crates or in the house alone for eight to ten hours, and then come home, let the dog potty, and crate them again while they have an evening out. Come home spend two hours with the dog and go to bed, to be repeated, five days a week, and these people are saying that a farmer or shepherd or police officer who works WITH their dog 8-16 hours a day, should not come home and kennel the dog outside.
> 
> What is the difference?
> 
> ...


I think you know more about how a farm or ranch works than most.I seriously gave a sigh and a smile when I read your post as you are able to express my thoughts exactly but in words.Some people do not realize either that a true working ranch may have upwards of 15 to 16 herding dogs plus several predator control dogs.Can you imagine having to bath and wash all these dogs every night after a grueling work day that starts at 5 am and end who knows when,8 or 9 if lucky, and look after a family,then clean and cook and still be sane after it all?Thats what feasible meant to me.These working dogs enjoy their life.This is what they were bred to do.They were not created to be a house pet.And I could not agree more about a dog being cooped up in a kennel being more healthy and "the way to do it" than a having an outside existance with their handler and then being allowed to go to their den for a quiet night of rest to have it all start again the next morning.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Catu said:


> Generalizations is exactly what I'm against. I do crate, and I do let my dogs outside. As much as you don't like being mass grouped with the people that keep dogs crated their dogs all day, we who leave our dogs to enjoy being only dogs outside don't like to being mass grouped with the people who keep their dogs with no interaction all day long.
> 
> 
> That has a lot to do with early training and habituation.


Thank you Catu for pointing out there are always two sides to a coin. 

I personally don't want an outdoor dog but I respect the fact that some people do for various reasons and their dogs are well cared for, included in activities, etc. I grew up in the era when the vast majority of dog owners had outdoor dogs that were happy, healthy, and enjoyed being outside with the family ... this was when kids played outside until dark, families spent hours in the evening, outside talking and drinking lemonade, etc. Our family was the oddball back then for having our dogs inside ... now indoor dogs are the norm. 

The only difference I see is that people today have the philosphy of DO AS I DO instead of accepting the fact that people are different and may have different lifestyles than their own.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

A 20 minute clean up to take my dogs in the house (especially during spring thaw) would equate to 3.5 minutes per dog. Hmmmm...... ever try cleaning up a great Pyrenees.  I groom my dogs regularly, but not daily, I have a life to live, and so do my dogs.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

quote-"AND, I don't appreciate being grouped into the mass of people that crate their dogs for 8 hours and don't do anything with them. I don't think that's the case with anyone on this board, and it certainly isn't the case with me, regardless of my opinion on the matter. My dog isn't crated, and our schedule revolves around him and taking care of HIS needs and enjoyments."

This is where realisim has to step in.Not everybody is able to decide and say"You know what?I don't want to take an 9-5 job or any job for that matter because it will interfer with my dogs crate schedule.Or it will impose on my dogs walk time.
You will be the minority not everyone else that makes there dog revolve around their needs.I understand your views and see nothing wrong with your daily routine.It works for you.I get it.I am not about to say you are wrong in how you treat your dog.But I do have contentions with your statements that people who do house their dogs in a different way are somehow lacking or wrong.There are many different styles and ways but it does not make them wrong or incorrect.
You need to keep an open minded approach as I have done with your views and try to see reasoning behind others ways and choices.The working dogs that we have had it the past and present are not suffering by any means of the imagination.They are stimulated like Selzer has mentioned before.They have interaction all day long,doing a job that they love.Being in a perfect enviroment for their needs.They have a bountiful diet that lacks nothing.
At the end of the day they are tired and all they want to do is go to their own quiet place in the kennel in the barn.This is where they try to creep off to if given the chance,not the house even though they know what the house is and who belongs there.They seem to mind it being noisy and overheated,they start to scratch because its too dry,they pant and before long they start to shed their beneficial coat that keeps them warm and dry while floundering through sludge and endless mires of sheep and cow manure.
You may not think this is ideal for you as it seems distasteful to your sensibilities as a human that craves warmth and security of your home but that does not mean a dog has the same ideals or needs as a person.These dogs are near their people and job (sheep,cows)all day long.They work hard.To give them a quiet place at night is a respite for both parties.Even humans need time for themselves just by themselves and there is nothing wrong with that.Quite the contrary for many.
As for owning dogs,its not always about enjoyment.People who own dogs for a working purpose cannot always give in to decisions for enjoyment over a means for a living.In this we try to find a natural balance that works for both the person and the dog.Any exageration or extremes in either direction tips a natural balance.
Balance in any situation is desirable and a trait that we should strive for wether it be breeding or just plain understanding someone else's views.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

selzer said:


> ...For a working dog, it is not always a good choice to have the dog in the house where the temperature is seventy some degrees. They may be working in twenty or ten degree weather, or in ninety degree weather. When dogs are left outside, their coats will fill in, and they will grow a layer of fat to help protect them from their current environment. ...


Excelent post, especially this part. 

In fact it would be very cruel for me to be taking my two guardians (pyrs) inside and outside especially during weather extreams. They do have shelter, and they aren't chained. They have stimulation from the work they do, protecting their charge. Not all breeds are clingy and needy for human interaction like terriers, labs, or german shepherds, and thats how they've been bred and raised. Pyrs are much more independant, they think a little like cats, and in reguards to being around people, they can "take it or leave it". 

Not everyone cares for their pyrs the same way, some pyrs are housepets. That's find, but by being such, they have been conditioned, and they are thin skinned, have no built in fat reserve for weather protection, and have a very thin coat of fur. They would suffer if left outdoors for an extended period of time, untill they were conditioned for such wether extreames. 

We had a simular thread on the pyr board, where some newbie posted that he had just moved in with his girlfriend who had a pyr, and he wanted that dog to live outside, and not be in the house, because he was large, shedded fur everywhere, and slobbered, and was smelly. Of course you can imagine the reaction of posting something like this on the pyr board, everyone suggested the girlfriend find another boy friend. 

It's nice to see so many people here so passionate about the care of their canine kids, (german shepherds on this board) but it's also important to relize that there are as many different ways to care for a dog as there are different breeds of dogs. It's my opinion that as long as the dogs are comfortable, healthy, mentally stimulated, and content, that's what leads to a quality life for the dogs. Not wether they are inside or outside. I personally think that keeping a dog chained or crated for extended periods, take away that mental stimulation and leads to bordom, which takes something away from quality of life.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> ... If I put him outside for an hour by himself he'd probably have a heart attack.


Sounds like seperation anxiety, but I'm not sure wether it's the dogs, or yours.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> If I put him outside for an hour by himself he'd probably have a heart attack.


Sinister would have a heart attack too.

He has seperation anxiety from me and I have seperation anxiety from him.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Sinister would have a heart attack too.
> 
> He has seperation anxiety from me and I have seperation anxiety from him.


Anxiety should be dealt with wether it is in humans or dogs.Its stressful for both parties and creates many health issues and damaging effects.Your dog should be able to funtion independantly and use his own faculties to calm himself down and relax.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

My dogs like to be outside with or without me. My corgi will lay in the sun for 2 hours if you let him, and I'm inside. They play out there with each other, they like the cool winter weather, just now I literally had to drag Remi back in the house. And it has nothing to do with me, they just enjoy being outside. If any of my dogs "had a heart attack" being outside without me for an hour, I'd be seriously concerned about their mental states. That sounds so unusual to me.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> Anxiety should be dealt with wether it is in humans or dogs.Its stressful for both parties and creates many health issues and damaging effects.Your dog should be able to funtion independantly and use his own faculties to calm himself down and relax.


He is able to function without me. But if he is outside and he knows that I am inside he will throw a fit. If I leave him with my ex (his dad) he doesn't care that I am not there. He is able to function and be ok with my cousin while I am at work. But if I leave him with someone and I am visible he will get upset and try to get to me.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think people are jumping on this anxiety and heart attack thing. Stop tossing out straw men.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think people are jumping on this anxiety and heart attack thing. Stop tossing out straw men.


I guess this is a response to them jumping on outside dogs unhealthy lifestyle.I believe that an inside dog who has anxiety to the extreme that he would appear to have a heart attack if left outside needs more help than a working dog who stays outdoors and is able to focus on tons of commands and be stable with it.Just my take.Or is anxiety to be a condoned behaviour?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Catu said:


> Generalizations is exactly what I'm against. I do crate, and I do let my dogs outside. As much as I don't like being mass grouped with the people that keep crated their dogs all day either, we who leave our dogs to enjoy being only dogs outside don't like to being mass grouped with the people who keep their dogs with no interaction all day long.


I haven't seen a single person group you or anyone here into a mass that is people keeping outside dogs with no interaction.



tierra nuestra said:


> quote-"AND, I don't appreciate being grouped into the mass of people that crate their dogs for 8 hours and don't do anything with them. I don't think that's the case with anyone on this board, and it certainly isn't the case with me, regardless of my opinion on the matter. My dog isn't crated, and our schedule revolves around him and taking care of HIS needs and enjoyments."
> 
> This is where realisim has to step in.Not everybody is able to decide and say"You know what?I don't want to take an 9-5 job or any job for that matter because it will interfer with my dogs crate schedule.Or it will impose on my dogs walk time.
> You will be the minority not everyone else that makes there dog revolve around their needs.I understand your views and see nothing wrong with your daily routine.It works for you.I get it.I am not about to say you are wrong in how you treat your dog.But I do have contentions with your statements that people who do house their dogs in a different way are somehow lacking or wrong.There are many different styles and ways but it does not make them wrong or incorrect.
> ...


Can you use spaces and make paragraphs, please? I almost could not read this nor respond, it hurt my eyes. 

I am being completely open minded to the reasoning that goes behind keeping outside dogs, I just don't agree, and there's nothing wrong with that. I understand people want their dogs to work and sleep in the barn. I don't, and neither does any farm _I _know. _I _don't think it's safe to keep
dogs outside. 




tierra nuestra said:


> Anxiety should be dealt with wether it is in humans or dogs.Its stressful for both parties and creates many health issues and damaging effects.Your dog should be able to funtion independantly and use his own faculties to calm himself down and relax.


If he was well-bred, I'm sure he'd be able to be. He cannot function in highly stressful situations without one of his owners though. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand though and it is not posing health issues or damaging effects. My dog is a neurotic basket-case, and all the training in the world hasn't calmed him down yet.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> I guess this is a response to them jumping on outside dogs unhealthy lifestyle.I believe that an inside dog who has anxiety to the extreme that he would appear to have a heart attack if left outside needs more help than a working dog who stays outdoors and is able to focus on tons of commands and be stable with it.Just my take.Or is anxiety to be a condoned behaviour?


Again - why would anxiety be a condoned behavior? I won't follow that. 

That has nothing to do with indoor or outdoor but on the genetic temperament of the dog. 

If a dog is going to be anxious when the owner leaves it will be anxious whether inside or outside. 

Behavior may manifest itself differently.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Again - why would anxiety be a condoned behavior? I won't follow that.
> 
> That has nothing to do with indoor or outdoor but on the genetic temperament of the dog.
> 
> ...


I am just saying that a person who states outside living is wrong but at the same time clearly states that her inside dog is a basket case with separation anxiety,could there possibley be a link?To be honest and I know this is not a case of all outside dogs who have had a healthy extensive job to do, but alot of ours,they have never had these kind of issues.could there be a link?Possibley,but who knows for sure.
And to state that no, that has no relation to the anxiety,how do you or they know?Maybe crating for long periods and having the dog tied to your side 24/7 creates some of these issues.Maybe it doesn't allow the dog to think for himself and creates a dependency.who knows for sure?I also think genetic blame is over used when a dog has poor behaviour that we cannot readily explain.Maybe,just maybe the lifestyle we impose on dogs creates unwanted or undesirable effects that we may not like.
I have my dogs outside for long periods but I am not the one stating they are basket case anxiety induced dogs with semi aggressive tendancies.Yes,yes,I know genetics could be a small factor but still,my dogs are pretty well off in behaviour.
As for djetzel opinion on outside dogs,thats fine just don't say that your right and I'm wrong.Thats the point I'm trying to make.We are possibley both right but just have different views.Its like discussing religion.Its always the other religion thats wrong but never ours!God forbid someone practices another faith type thing.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Emoore said:


> My next-door neighbor has two outside GSDs. They bark ALL THE **** TIME. We can't even enjoy our backyard because every time we go out there, her dogs are barking at us. They've dug far enough underneath the fence that they can stick their whole upper bodies under it and watch us do whatever we're doing, barking and snarling the whole time. I hate it.
> 
> When it was 107 degrees f this summer, they were outside. When it was sleeting and close to zero, they were outside. Barking.


Wow - how do you put up with it? Is there no recourse for you? That would never be permitted here in Denver, at least not in my neighborhood: the laws are fairly strict, and owners allowing their dogs to behave in such a fashion would quickly find themselves in court, with a hefty fine. (And they'd pay for the damage to my fence too.) 

I have never left any of our dogs outside, except years ago when we had Malamutes. They liked being out there, but they are quiet dogs (I know, I asked my neighbors to monitor them.) We have a dog door though, so they could come in if they wanted to. (Which they did in hot weather, these dogs are more comfortable in the cold.) All our other dogs (not all were GSD's) have been very strongly bonded to us, and want to be where we are. Plus I know that if they are inside when we are gone they may bark, but it isn't going to bum out my neighbors - who don't have dogs and wouldn't appreciate it. They have free run of the house, and are not crated (though I have crates if they want to go in there, I leave the doors open.) I have no time for anyone who puts a dog of any breed in the backyard and abandons it there without any kind of interaction. That to me is as cruel as any physical punishment you could dish out, and is more insidious because you can't see mental anguish. I don't have a problem with a dog being outside if a) neighbors don't give a hoot about barking, b) the dog has some companionship i.e. another animal for company, or a person looking in on it occasionally, especially if it's going to be out there all day and c) if it receives adequate exercise, and mental stimulation WITH PEOPLE and is brought into the house at night. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, if it is safe for it to be out there - not all places/ neighborhoods are.
_____________________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> I was just wondering what your guys' take on this was.
> 
> Personally, I don't see the point of having a yard decoration that you have to feed, water, pick up after, and listen to bark because they're bored and lonely. (This is what I'm asking about when I say outside dog - one that never comes inside, just sits in the yard).
> 
> Why would someone want an outside dog? Just to have a dog? I don't get it.


They apparently aren't 'dog people'. Some people get a dog because they think it completes the family portrait but they don't care much about the dog itself.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

selzer said:


> They do not need to be inside as much as we want them to want to be inside.


:thumbup:
Where does it end? Should the livestock be brought inside as well? 
I'm sure they miss the farmer when he goes to sleep.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> :thumbup:
> Where does it end? Should the livestock be brought inside as well?
> I'm sure they miss the farmer when he goes to sleep.


Livestock haven't been bred for years and years to be our companions. They were bred for food.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> ... I understand people want their dogs to work and sleep in the barn. I don't, and neither does any farm _I _know. _I _don't think it's safe to keep
> dogs outside....


Well, I farm, and I know a lot of other farmers. (we tend to flock together) I know of a lot of outdoor dogs whos shelter is a barn. It's no different than a dog house, it's shelter. 

So, what I would like to understand better is *why* it's not safe to keep a dog outside. 

What's outside at your place that's a threat, and is it the same as at my place? Should I be carrying my 22 riffle around with me more often? I would hate to be painted neglegent, by allowing my dogs to be exposed to unsafe living conditions. I, myself practically live and work outside all the time, and my home really is just a place for me to eat and sleep at night. Now I'm starting to get scared for my own safty. What is outside that should concern me? Is it something that is unsafe for me as well as dogs? I can understand the safty aspect, if the dog is constantly restrained by a chain or cable, unsupervised, that can be extreamly dangerous. But I need to know more about the safty aspect of my dogs just being outside in general, so I can be a better caregiver.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Livestock haven't been bred for years and years to be our companions. They were bred for food.


I don't disagree. But does that mean that whoever can't be glued to their dog 24/7 shouldn't own one at all? 
I'm actually of the opinion that my dogs aren't clingy _enough_ so I can't be accused of making them this way, but when left out at night, they actually _prefer_ to sleep by the front door which is 4 floors away from our bed. They have the option of hopping into our bed if they really wanted or sleeping on the cold foyer floor... they choose the cold marble foyer floor.
At my parents' house, they prefer to be outside but for obvious reasons, my dad is afraid to leave them out there.
There are a lot of dogs that don't belong outside but not all of them by default should be labeled neglected.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

kidkhmer said:


> Selzer - the voice of sanity !!  *two thumbs up *


I agree too! I don't think it is a matter of outdoor vs indoor; 
Although, in a perfect world everyone would play with their pets and take them to the park regardless if it is indoor or outdoor dog. Sadly this is not the case. The truth is ,many people neglect their children, we can't expect these types of people to treat their fur babies any better.

My dogs are lucky. We have a doggy door and they can be indoors or outdoors anytime they choose. If I had acreage and large kennel runs, then I would probably give them more outdoor time because I know they have more fun rolling in the dirt than jumping over me while I vacuum in the house each day.
I have never owned an outdoor dog so I can not really judge on the difference.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I don't disagree. But does that mean that whoever can't be glued to their dog 24/7 shouldn't own one at all?
> I'm actually of the opinion that my dogs aren't clingy _enough_ so I can't be accused of making them this way, but when left out at night, they actually _prefer_ to sleep by the front door which is 4 floors away from our bed. They have the option of hopping into our bed if they really wanted or sleeping on the cold foyer floor... they choose the cold marble foyer floor.
> At my parents' house, they prefer to be outside but for obvious reasons, my dad is afraid to leave them out there.
> There are a lot of dogs that don't belong outside but not all of them by default should be labeled neglected.


I dont feel that it should be labeled neglectful if the dog gets the proper exercise, food, shelter and attention. I just feel that there are too many dangers outside and that is why I want my dog safe inside with me.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Lin said:


> The majority of people that responded *are against dogs that are chained and have no interaction*.* Outside working dogs are completely different... *
> 
> *The dog on a chain in the corner of the yard is typically what people think of by "outdoor dog." Its what I think of, I classify working dogs or the examples given in this thread as being completely different*.


Emphasis added. Did anyone read this post? I think this is what Konotashi was talking about in her first post. I don't believe that she's objecting to outdoor dogs who are still a part of the family and get daily interaction (more than just a bowl of kibble and fresh water).


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

tierra nuestra said:


> I am just saying that a person who states outside living is wrong but at the same time clearly states that her inside dog is a basket case with separation anxiety,could there possibley be a link?


Well people have said they had outside dogs and their dog is anxious/uncomfortable inside the house, will pace the whole time etc... Is that really much different?

I don't like the idea of "outside dogs" either, yet my dogs have never had anxiety issues when they are out of the house.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Davey Benson said:


> Well, I farm, and I know a lot of other farmers. (we tend to flock together) I know of a lot of outdoor dogs whos shelter is a barn. It's no different than a dog house, it's shelter.
> 
> So, what I would like to understand better is *why* it's not safe to keep a dog outside.
> 
> What's outside at your place that's a threat, and is it the same as at my place? Should I be carrying my 22 riffle around with me more often? I would hate to be painted neglegent, by allowing my dogs to be exposed to unsafe living conditions. I, myself practically live and work outside all the time, and my home really is just a place for me to eat and sleep at night. Now I'm starting to get scared for my own safty. What is outside that should concern me? Is it something that is unsafe for me as well as dogs? I can understand the safty aspect, if the dog is constantly restrained by a chain or cable, unsupervised, that can be extreamly dangerous. But I need to know more about the safty aspect of my dogs just being outside in general, so I can be a better caregiver.


There are so many things that are the exact same threat regardless of our location. There are too many things to list! What if your tractor starts leaking anti-freeze one night and your dog licks it up? What if your dog injests a rabid animal carcass? What if your dog get attacked by a stray? I could go on and on and on with what ifs that are completely plausable in just about every situation. 

I like to know what my dogs are up to. Maybe I'm too over-protective, cautious, and am just raising basket-case dogs! (though that is obviously not the case since only ONE of my dogs has been like this) But, I want to know if my dog is sick or even alive. I know if my Beagle had been an outdoor dog, I would not have gotten her to the vet to find out she was going into kidney failure. She would have died and I never would have known or been able to TRY to fix it. If my dog's get sick, I don't want to go to the vet and say "Well, I don't really know what they could have eaten or what could be the issue because I haven't even seen them in about 12 hours." I want to be able to catch issues before they become dangerous. Is is bad to be responsible? Because I feel like people are telling me my dogs are too reliant and spoiled or something...  I'm just keeping them alive and happy.



tierra nuestra said:


> I guess this is a response to them jumping on outside dogs unhealthy lifestyle.I believe that an inside dog who has anxiety to the extreme that he would appear to have a heart attack if left outside needs more help than a working dog who stays outdoors and is able to focus on tons of commands and be stable with it.Just my take.Or is anxiety to be a condoned behaviour?


I never said my dog couldn't focus and pay attention to commands. Him being inside has nothing to do with that. Being away from PEOPLE in NEW situations does, and he will not react well. I can't blame that on him or his upbringing though.



tierra nuestra said:


> I am just saying that a person who states outside living is wrong but at the same time clearly states that her inside dog is a basket case with separation anxiety,could there possibley be a link?To be honest and I know this is not a case of all outside dogs who have had a healthy extensive job to do, but alot of ours,they have never had these kind of issues.could there be a link?Possibley,but who knows for sure.
> And to state that no, that has no relation to the anxiety,how do you or they know?Maybe crating for long periods and having the dog tied to your side 24/7 creates some of these issues.Maybe it doesn't allow the dog to think for himself and creates a dependency.who knows for sure?I also think genetic blame is over used when a dog has poor behaviour that we cannot readily explain.Maybe,just maybe the lifestyle we impose on dogs creates unwanted or undesirable effects that we may not like.
> I have my dogs outside for long periods but I am not the one stating they are basket case anxiety induced dogs with semi aggressive tendancies.Yes,yes,I know genetics could be a small factor but still,my dogs are pretty well off in behaviour.
> As for djetzel opinion on outside dogs,thats fine just don't say that your right and I'm wrong.Thats the point I'm trying to make.We are possibley both right but just have different views.Its like discussing religion.Its always the other religion thats wrong but never ours!God forbid someone practices another faith type thing.


My dog has never been crated for long periods or tied to my side and he has mild Seperation anxiety. How do you want to justify that? I also know about a billion dogs that are outside dogs that howl, bark, and whine at all hours of the day that appear to have "seperation anxiety".

After numerous consults with the vet and a behavioralist on my dog's behavior, it has been decided that it is likely a genetic issue and will not be overcome, but can certainly be managed, which is what we're doing. 

And once again, I never said you were wrong or I was right. I said I'll never condone that lifestyle and don't believe in it. Stop putting words in my mouth AND judging me and my dog. I would appreciate it if you'd keep this topic on track or I will take it WAY off track.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> There are so many things that are the exact same threat regardless of our location. There are too many things to list! What if your tractor starts leaking anti-freeze one night and your dog licks it up? What if your dog injests a rabid animal carcass? What if your dog get attacked by a stray? I could go on and on and on with what ifs that are completely plausable in just about every situation. ...


What if ... what if? 

All these "what ifs" can happen equally as well during the day, they can happen when a dog is out with the owner. What if he gets in the pantry and eats a box of raisins? What if he eats some furniture or carpet? What if the house catches on fire? Hazards abound, indoors and outdoors, with the owners present, without the owners present. I've made plenty of trips to the vet's office or ER with my indoor Hooligans because I can't watch them every second. 

Had a nasty four dog fight last week ... blood everywhere ... it started with me just feet from them. Took me a good 10 minutes to get it completely broken up. Not a stray but same results, four injured, bleeding dogs. 

What if ... what if!!!


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Wow I was mixed up in a thread like this about a week ago-same debate. I don't think dogs should be kept outside by themselves. That is my opinion and reflects how I feel about dogs and the relationship I have with my GSD. That being said, I understand that some people truly believe that their dog WANTS to be outside. 
I also understand that a lot of people keep their dogs outside out of CONVENIENCE. They really, really LOVE their dog- but ya know, they shed an awful lot... And they will say their dogs are happy outside because it makes them feel/look better.
After all, they are just dogs....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJEtzel,

Wow, you did go off me a bit didn't you. My dogs are indoor dogs by the way. But when I am not home, they are kenneled outside. They are well trained, titled, and have no behaviorial issues like separation anxiety. They are not unsettled in the house, but they do LOVE to go outside. I am not a fan of crating, but if it keeps the dog safe, and puppies for sure need to be kept safe, I understand why people would go that route. I do have crates, and my dogs do sleep in them. But normally they (the crates) lie dormant. 

Now, if you live in a crappy neighborhood where your dog is not safe outdoors in a secure kennel in a fenced yard, then, for sure I would never encourage anyone to leave a dog in such a situation. 

The difference between properly kenneling a dog outside or crating a dog inside when you are not there to supervise is simply that the crated dog cannot relieve himself or find a more comfortable position to lie in, and in many cases cannot drink either. Dogs live this way and do just fine. But with all the people following a prey model with food, because it is more to a dog's nature, is it really to a dog's nature to be confined to a crate for many hours where they can barely stand up and turn around, in a house that is warm enough for humans with no outdoor clothing on? 

I dunno. I think my dogs do better being outside during the day because, even when it is hiding, there is sun out there. 

As for the dangers. There are few dangers for dogs crated, unless they break their teeth trying to squeeze out of the crates. But dogs left free run of the home, are much more likely to get into something bad than a dog that is kenneled properly. 

I think that when you let your humanizing emotions get in the way of your logical thought, you can make all sorts of rules for things that actually cause problems rather than make things better. 

If you want your dog inside while you are away, that is your decision, you can risk either leaving the dog loose in the house, or crating the dog. Another person might feel it is more humane to kennel the dog outside, why is it that the former individual believes they have a monopoly on how to keep dogs, and must condemn the latter? 

My dogs are always clean. Kennels are cleaned once or twice a day, and while they may get wet and need to dry in a crate for a time, they are always clean enough to go with me anywhere or come into my house, and even to sleep in my bed -- concrete and a large enough kennel do make for comfortable, healthy, clean dogs.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I truly don't think there is a right or wrong answer for this one. It is left to the person caring for their pet. It is left to the enviroment and up to each individual dog. 

My golden is out side 24/7, his choice. My mini doxie is crated in the house while I'm away, my choice. My GSD is either outside or inside during the day depending on the weather. My horses are let out to pasture in the day and brought up to be stalled at night. If the weather is bad, they are left in their stalls. 

My final goal is to have happy, healthy animals in my care. 

There is no reason to ever have an animal tied to a tree for it's life time. I wouldn't have one if that were the case.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

selzer said:


> DJEtzel,
> 
> Wow, you did go off me a bit didn't you. My dogs are indoor dogs by the way. But when I am not home, they are kenneled outside. They are well trained, titled, and have no behaviorial issues like separation anxiety. They are not unsettled in the house, but they do LOVE to go outside. I am not a fan of crating, but if it keeps the dog safe, and puppies for sure need to be kept safe, I understand why people would go that route. I do have crates, and my dogs do sleep in them. But normally they (the crates) lie dormant.
> 
> ...


VERY well stated!


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

arycrest said:


> What if ... what if?
> 
> All these "what ifs" can happen equally as well during the day, they can happen when a dog is out with the owner. What if he gets in the pantry and eats a box of raisins? What if he eats some furniture or carpet? What if the house catches on fire? Hazards abound, indoors and outdoors, with the owners present, without the owners present. I've made plenty of trips to the vet's office or ER with my indoor Hooligans because I can't watch them every second.
> 
> ...


i was just going to say this.


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

Your own "Tractor leaking antifreeze" scenario can happen in a home just as easily. I think this debate is a little foolish, simply because if one's dogs are happy you know it, and if they are, then you're doing right by them. Bear prefers to be with me, and doesn't go outside without me often, however when we do I will leave him out there if he wants. He doesn't. I think a lot of that may be a GSD thing, but I don't know. I also know my mother had a sheep dog that would bite your arm off before he would voluntarily come inside the house, even on fridgid nights. He didn't have a job, but he liked being outside. Indoor or outdoor, either one can be right, either one can be wrong. As with so many discussions in the lives of our dogs, it comes down to what kind of owner are you? You can meet a dog's needs in both philosophies.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

my grandparents had bull mastifs who LOVED to be outside. they left them outside all day because they wanted to be outside. they had to drag them inside at night and when they weren't home, but dragging a 200 lb dog is not easy. those dogs were extremely well cared for and loved being with people, but they lived being outside more. that's just how they were, even though when they were puppies they were in the house they didn't like it. 

just because you may not like dogs outside doesn't mean that everyone has to keep their dogs inside. Some dogs, like working dogs, would much rather be outside than in. I used to have a GSD/Aussie mix would stayed out 24/7 of course we walked him daily and spent time with him every day, but he liked being outside more than in the house. he had a nice dog house that was raised off the ground that my grandpa built for him. does this make me Or my grandparents bad owners? no. as long as the dog isn't neglected and a lawn ornament I have no problem with dogs being outside. my best friend had a Dalmation that was outside 24/7, except when she got older, that's just how it was. they cared very well for that dog even trying everything under the sun to help her when she got cancer. just my two cents


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> There are so many things that are the exact same threat regardless of our location. There are too many things to list! What if your tractor starts leaking anti-freeze one night and your dog licks it up? What if your dog injests a rabid animal carcass? What if your dog get attacked by a stray? I could go on and on and on with what ifs that are completely plausable in just about every situation.
> 
> I like to know what my dogs are up to. Maybe I'm too over-protective, cautious, and am just raising basket-case dogs! (though that is obviously not the case since only ONE of my dogs has been like this) But, I want to know if my dog is sick or even alive. I know if my Beagle had been an outdoor dog, I would not have gotten her to the vet to find out she was going into kidney failure. She would have died and I never would have known or been able to TRY to fix it. If my dog's get sick, I don't want to go to the vet and say "Well, I don't really know what they could have eaten or what could be the issue because I haven't even seen them in about 12 hours." I want to be able to catch issues before they become dangerous. Is is bad to be responsible? Because I feel like people are telling me my dogs are too reliant and spoiled or something...  I'm just keeping them alive and happy...


Thanks for the reply. I was afraid that maybe I was overlooking something important.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jax's Mom said:


> :thumbup:
> Where does it end? Should the livestock be brought inside as well?
> I'm sure they miss the farmer when he goes to sleep.


We had horses when we were kids, we snuck the pony into the house more than once. 
My mom found a piglet wandering with some back leg nerve issues, she brought it home and named it after my dads x-girlfriend "marge" I was a teenager by then and totally embarrassed! She found a farm to take the piglet after a couple weeks of it living with us. Baby piggies are adorable! We did not live on a farm, BTW, just had a few acres.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

opcorn:


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> We had horses when we were kids, we snuck the pony into the house more than once.


When I was in my early 20s I went down the coast ( australia ) to a farm owned by a VERY rich friend of mine. He and his brother inherited double digit millions from their industrialist father and they bought and restored an old dairy farm. The actual farm house was just stunning with huge timber beams in the roof and wide timber floor boards etc and the view down the valley was insane. Anyways the first day it was freezing cold as it was winter so we lit a fire and his mum arrived. I had never met her before but I knew she had terminal cancer. We said hello, she sat down and proceeded to blaze up a big fat joint "its for the pain". As we sat there enjoying the medication, I heard this noise and the next thing I know this pure white miniature horse walks past us and into the kitchen . The others didn't blink. I was like  " did you see that horse ?". They all laughed and said " what horse?". And then the little horse clip clopped back into the room and walked out. It was one off those Alice in wonderland moments and yes........it really was a horse in the house. Very cool.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> We had horses when we were kids, we snuck the pony into the house more than once.
> .


 
Years ago we had a Halloween party at my house. Many more people showed then we thought, and we had folks wandering all around. Because the weather was nice, we had the doors and windows opened. At one point I walked in the living room where around 20 guests were standing around talking, and in the middle of the room was my goat eating my house plants! Nobody said a word, they thought it was normal. What kind of ******* did they think I was?


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## Jake71 (Feb 2, 2011)

Our Dog Daisy is an outside dog while we are at work but inside when we are home. I'm not even totally with her being outside during the day but my gf wants her to be outside in fresh air instead of being cooped up.

I figure this way she can goto the bathroom if she wants instead of waiting and if the nasty azz cats get close enough, maybe she can eat a couple of them.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

quote-"And once again, I never said you were wrong or I was right. I said I'll never condone that lifestyle and don't believe in it. Stop putting words in my mouth AND judging me and my dog. I would appreciate it if you'd keep this topic on track or I will take it WAY off track."

Several posts back you were pretty vocal about whats right and whats wrong.
Next,I did not put any words into your mout just words that you yourself stated.
3rd, This is entirely on track about peoples thoughts on outside dogs and what we think about it.
4th,I really cannot see how I was judging you and your dog when I OPENLY STATED I have no issue with your living arrangements or how you house your dog.what works for you may not work for others in a true farm/ranch lifestyle,but you were being pretty preachy and I'm sure you were doing some harsh judging yourself a couple posts back on selzer and a couple op's about the dangers of outside. But I guess its ok for only you to do it.A little bit of hypocrisy?
How will exactly will you take this"WAY" off track?What do you mean by that?A threat or just a bold statement?yes I do see this as going off track but I would like an explanation to that one.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Years ago we had a Halloween party at my house. Many more people showed then we thought, and we had folks wandering all around. Because the weather was nice, we had the doors and windows opened. At one point I walked in the living room where around 20 guests were standing around talking, and in the middle of the room was my goat eating my house plants! Nobody said a word, they thought it was normal. What kind of ******* did they think I was?


a goat?yea,I can see it.We had nigerian dwarfs that were bottle babies.But what a nightmare.They terrorized everybody,dogs included.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

arycrest said:


> What if ... what if?
> 
> All these "what ifs" can happen equally as well during the day, they can happen when a dog is out with the owner. What if he gets in the pantry and eats a box of raisins? What if he eats some furniture or carpet? What if the house catches on fire? Hazards abound, indoors and outdoors, with the owners present, without the owners present. I've made plenty of trips to the vet's office or ER with my indoor Hooligans because I can't watch them every second.
> 
> ...


Yeah, what if. Your dogs have gotten into a ton of trouble, and imagine if they were outside and you were inside when that happened. You'd be looking at a few dead dogs. 



DrDoom said:


> Your own "Tractor leaking antifreeze" scenario can happen in a home just as easily. I think this debate is a little foolish, simply because if one's dogs are happy you know it, and if they are, then you're doing right by them. Bear prefers to be with me, and doesn't go outside without me often, however when we do I will leave him out there if he wants. He doesn't. I think a lot of that may be a GSD thing, but I don't know. I also know my mother had a sheep dog that would bite your arm off before he would voluntarily come inside the house, even on fridgid nights. He didn't have a job, but he liked being outside. Indoor or outdoor, either one can be right, either one can be wrong. As with so many discussions in the lives of our dogs, it comes down to what kind of owner are you? You can meet a dog's needs in both philosophies.


But since I'M outside WITH my dogs, I can tell them to leave it and not worry about them licking it up overnight and dieing. 

And once again. I never said that dogs that were kept outside weren't happy or that people neglect them. I said that _I _don't like it and it's not for me. And I can't justify doing it. 



Davey Benson said:


> Thanks for the reply. I was afraid that maybe I was overlooking something important.


Of course. Because your dogs' health isn't important.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Davey Benson*  
_Thanks for the reply. I was afraid that maybe I was overlooking something important. _

"Of course. Because your dogs' health isn't important.  "


My point is kinda proven all in this little statement.You do seem to be shoveling alot of judgmental crap into other peoples mouths as well.Why do I even bother.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This will end up as another thread that poofs in the night because some posters take it personal.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> This will end up as another thread that poofs in the night because some posters take it personal.


True,true.As I said,why bother.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> This will end up as another thread that poofs in the night because some posters take it personal.


I agree. I think we need to cool it and calm down 

can't we have a civil conversation without people taking it personal and getting into arguments?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Brownies? 

No not the special kind.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

DCluver33 said:


> can't we have a civil conversation without people taking it personal and getting into arguments?


Right? Once again, I don't want to argue. You [general] can think I'm judging (And maybe I am), but I have the right to, and I'm not calling anyone a bad owner. I stated my opinion and don't want to argue about it. I'm not going to magically change views and think everyone is absolutely right because of an arguement, when my values tell me otherwise.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Brownies?
> 
> No not the special kind.


awww why not the special kind?  lol

I want a brownie!!!


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Brownies?
> 
> No not the special kind.


****,I got excited when I heard brownies and lept to a conclusion too soon.:wild:


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Right? Once again, I don't want to argue. You [general] can think I'm judging (And maybe I am), but I have the right to, and I'm not calling anyone a bad owner. I stated my opinion and don't want to argue about it. I'm not going to magically change views and think everyone is absolutely right because of an arguement, when my values tell me otherwise.


which I understand, but sometimes (not saying you specifically) people need to remember it's not WHAT you say, but HOW you say it. people should get in the habit of reading what they post BEFORE posing it. sorry to by hyjack the thread back to the original topic


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DCluver33 said:


> awww why not the special kind?  lol
> 
> I want a brownie!!!


*Hands Steph a brownie*

Because I am out of stock.lol


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> *Hands Steph a brownie*
> 
> Because I am out of stock.lol


*takes brownie*
yum thanks!!

I could help you make the special ones!!


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> *Hands Steph a brownie*
> 
> Because I am out of stock.lol


mmmmmm chocolate,I think I have to go......


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Well its Valentine's Day!lol


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> This will end up as another thread that poofs in the night because some posters take it personal.


I hope not. That story I gave you all about the white horse took me a while to type out. I am not very good on a keyboard. :crazy:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jessica, I hope your pup cannot get into your stash of brownie materials -- yeah, the chocolate, and the special ingredients. The last thing we need is a wired, spaced out pup to prove the point about dangers within the house as well as without. 

I think it is strange how we baby our GSDs. 

We all know that police dogs get shot, but they are also sabotoged by drug dealers. Police officers risk their K-9s lives all the time. But we almost expect that.

What we often do not hear about are SAR dogs and how often they are injured while on the job, and how their lives are seriously risked whenever their owners take them out in the field to do the job. 

And let's think about the job the dogs were originally bred to do, both herding sheep and guarding sheep. Guarding sheep from human and animal assailants. They would take on wolves, and that was part of the job description. 

Let's look at our military dogs, in Iraq with temperatures up to 130 degrees. Their lives are risked all the time. 

I know that these dogs lives are risked for the greater good, to save human lives, whatever, but we are sitting here worried about our dogs being safe in a kennel in our back yard or on our farms. 

For all of that, I am convinced that my dogs are SAFER in my kennels than they would be in my home. They each have their own kennel, so they will not be outside, dead from a dog fight. I do not leave my tractor inside my kennel. And a rabid animal would have to do some pretty interesting manoevers to get to my dogs. Dogs can and do go through window, and break out of crates. If a dog does this, they can be in danger of being smooshed in the road. 

I think we all should probably try to understand that people have different ideas about what makes sense in how they house their dogs, and it is highly specific to the environment that the dog lives in.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> Jessica, I hope your pup cannot get into your stash of brownie materials -- yeah, the chocolate, and the special ingredients. The last thing we need is a wired, spaced out pup to prove the point about dangers within the house as well as without.
> 
> I think it is strange how we baby our GSDs.
> 
> ...


Its hidden.lol


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Yeah, what if. Your dogs have gotten into a ton of trouble, and imagine if they were outside and you were inside when that happened. You'd be looking at a few dead dogs.


Oh, give me a break with all your hypothetical BS ... PROVE TO ME THAT MY DOGS WOULD BE DEAD IF THEY WERE OUTDOOR ANIMALS!!! They spend many hours playing outdoors without killing themselves.

For what it's worth, some of the what if's I posted about happened while I was not at home ... AND THE DOGS STILL MANAGED TO LIVE!!!

People can't watch their dogs 24/7 and if they had to, not many of us would own them.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

JESSIE ... please send a dozen of the specials!!!


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## Chowgal (Dec 21, 2009)

My dogs don't spend ALL day outside, but they do prefer it on nice days. They love to play outside, there's a lot more room to rough house than there is inside. They sleep inside with me every night, get bathed on a regular basis, go for 2 walks every day, and have all their basic needs met, plus some. I don't agree in getting and dog and leaving it in the yard, but I don't agree with keeping them inside ALL the time either. They're my family members yes, but they need fresh air too, and not just on walks. Shoot, my crew would rather sleep in the dirt that on their dog beds.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I got make a special order.lol


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Years ago we had a Halloween party at my house. Many more people showed then we thought, and we had folks wandering all around. Because the weather was nice, we had the doors and windows opened. At one point I walked in the living room where *around 20 guests were standing around talking, and in the middle of the room was my goat eating my house plants!* Nobody said a word, they thought it was normal. What kind of ******* did they think I was?


:rofl: 
Where's a camera when you need one!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

as one stated, I don't want this post to disappear

If you feel like posting something nasty, stop and eat a brownie


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok for my 2 cents It's obvious we all have our own opinions when it comes to inside/outside dogs. 

I have no problem with someone keeping their dog outside IF they are safe, get enough quality time with their owner, have a good set up and the dog LIKES being outside. 

I do not agree with a dog living outside on a chain, or reasons like "he sheds to much"..

My dogs don't live outside, they never have, don't care to and I prefer them in the house where they are spoiled brats Of course they are in and out when I am here to supervise, but they mostly want to be where I am.

You (general you) can be passionate in your views on one or the other, but you (general you) don't have to shove them down other people's throats because they don't agree with your (general your) view.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ok for my 2 cents It's obvious we all have our own opinions when it comes to inside/outside dogs.
> 
> I have no problem with someone keeping their dog outside IF they are safe, get enough quality time with their owner, have a good set up and the dog LIKES being outside.
> 
> ...


This is exactly how I feel, except she says it so well and clearly!!!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

arycrest said:


> Oh, give me a break with all your hypothetical BS ... PROVE TO ME THAT MY DOGS WOULD BE DEAD IF THEY WERE OUTDOOR ANIMALS!!! They spend many hours playing outdoors without killing themselves.
> 
> For what it's worth, some of the what if's I posted about happened while I was not at home ... AND THE DOGS STILL MANAGED TO LIVE!!!
> 
> People can't watch their dogs 24/7 and if they had to, not many of us would own them.


I don't need to prove anything to you. It is YOUR issue if your dogs attack each other and die while they're outside. I keep mine inside to avoid such issues, so please don't attack me just because I don't agree with you.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I don't need to prove anything to you. It is YOUR issue if your dogs attack each other and die while they're outside. I keep mine inside to avoid such issues, so please don't attack me just because I don't agree with you.












You are worried about outside dangers?!! I think this picture says a thousand words. Don't ya think DJEtzel? I see quite a few hazards here that could kill your dog that you love so much. Lets see, hmmm. Garbage on the floor which can be easily digested and cause blockage. Oh, can't forget the coke can on the floor that can be chewed on and swallowed which can cause blockage and tear up the intestines. Exposed wires in which your dog can chew on.......Looks like you have more to worry about with the inside of your house then the outside. Just sayin.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Wow! After reading this thread (and completely, whew!) I have to say that everyone's opinions are situational......

We have people who have "inside dogs" who only go outside on a leash or supervised for potty or playtime. 

Some utilize an outdoor kennel for unsupervised outside time.

Some a crate for indoor unsupervised time.

Some free roam the house unsupervised.

And some free roam outside unsupervised either fenced or with a job such as guarding property or livestock.

But who is to say which is "right or wrong"? It's situational and really depends on what works for each individual person. 

So I will throw this out there.....

I do not believe in dogs being chained for long periods of time. Of course their is a use for them at times, such as fence jumpers, etc. But short periods of containment.

I also do not believe that dogs should be outside 24/7 without a job, such as an urban setting in a backyard. 

I DO believe that farm dogs who take residence in a barn protecting livestock or property is perfectly acceptable. What better job for a dog that that. And the "what if's" is an ill effect of the job. 

In the end it is a personal decision for everyone. I personally have 4 dogs and each are different. My Chi goes outside only to potty and remains cuddled up in a blanket for the remainder of the day. He free roams the house when alone. My male GSD loves to be outside and on nice days will lay in the grass and watch the world go by. I check on him but am not watching him every moment. My Samoyed is the same as the male GSD. And with snow he will lay in it all day as well. Both free roam as well when alone, although I gate them to their own half of the house. (Don't trust them together since my Samoyed can get cranky at times). And my female GSD is crated when alone and is taken out on a leash (fence jumper-even when standing right next to her!).

What I am saying with all the rattle above is to each their own. If your dog is happy, healthy and well cared for it's each individuals choice as to how to handle their dog


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

bunchoberrys said:


> You are worried about outside dangers?!! I think this picture says a thousand words. Don't ya think DJEtzel? I see quite a few hazards here that could kill your dog that you love so much. Lets see, hmmm. Garbage on the floor which can be easily digested and cause blockage. Oh, can't forget the coke can on the floor that can be chewed on and swallowed which can cause blockage and tear up the intestines. Exposed wires in which your dog can chew on.......Looks like you have more to worry about with the inside of your house then the outside. Just sayin.


And you don't realize that all of this mess is here from one day. He was fully supervised while all of this was here. He's not a chewer regardless so I wouldn't worry if we did leave something on the floor, but we don't. It gets cleaned every time we leave. Please don't judge me and my dog's living situation without knowing a thing about it.  

So no, I don't think this says a thing... he destroyed a toy, chewed on a bottle, my boyfriend's computer is plugged in, and my roommate left her coke can on the floor. None of this is going to hurt him. We make sure of that.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

valreegrl said:


> Wow! After reading this thread (and completely, whew!) I have to say that everyone's opinions are situational......
> 
> We have people who have "inside dogs" who only go outside on a leash or supervised for potty or playtime.
> 
> ...


Thank you.You and selzer have hit the nail on the head here.Although,fence jumpers,food for thought can have a nice outdoor kennel for free time but stretch hog wire on top.some use fish net or trampoline nets but they can tear if your dogs mouth it.This gives even the hardcase ones some free movement with out chains. 

And yes,people think that if they go to a pet store it will cost a fortune,but do not use a petstore.Go to an agricultural or horse store and you can find amazing slip knot wire fence that is not hard on the eyes and affordable and you get like 300 feet for the price of one panel in a pet store.or if you have a back yard you can build it in and make an overhang so they cannot jump the fence either.

We have had customers ask after their house was done to incorparate a safe backyard for their pets.This is one way as well as digging in galvanized mesh under the fence so no one gets in or out(hint for people who have neighbours dogs digging in)I can even post a pic of the slip knot fence that we use.People who have high quality horses use it because it will not hurt the horse if they bolt into it,high tensile strength)Its alot cheaper than chain link.Like a 3rd of the price.:hug:


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> And you don't realize that all of this mess is here from one day. He was fully supervised while all of this was here. He's not a chewer regardless so I wouldn't worry if we did leave something on the floor, but we don't. It gets cleaned every time we leave. Please don't judge me and my dog's living situation without knowing a thing about it.
> 
> So no, I don't think this says a thing... he destroyed a toy, chewed on a bottle, my boyfriend's computer is plugged in, and my roommate left her coke can on the floor. None of this is going to hurt him. We make sure of that.


I'm not going to comment.........


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

There are many hazards inside and outside, I believe it is irresponsible thinking to think *nothing* will ever happen. Just because one dog doesnt do something mostly doesnt mean it ever will. There is no such thing as 100%...they are still dogs, and sometimes dogs will be dogs, regardless of what we think.

Its about weighing the pros and cons.

A car could be leaking antifreeze and someone not know it, they could be right there with their dog and the dog still get to it if the person doesn't know about it.

There are a million whatifs for both cases....heck there are a million what ifs for ANYTHING in life. Again its about weighing pros/cons.

I personally wont life my like in paranoia and always wondering about "what if"


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Please don't judge me and my dog's living situation without knowing a thing about it.



You stated in a previous post before this it was YOUR right to judge.

Why are they not afforded the same thing? YOU don't know a thing about their living situation either.

Maybe you should take your own advice


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> And you don't realize that all of this mess is here from one day. He was fully supervised while all of this was here. He's not a chewer regardless so I wouldn't worry if we did leave something on the floor, but we don't. It gets cleaned every time we leave. Please don't judge me and my dog's living situation without knowing a thing about it.
> 
> So no, I don't think this says a thing... he destroyed a toy, chewed on a bottle, my boyfriend's computer is plugged in, and my roommate left her coke can on the floor. None of this is going to hurt him. We make sure of that.


But you judge a a farms way of life without knowing anything about it either.Our working dogs are watched every second they are out because if you don't they can easily kill tons of sheep.This is a farms bread and butter so you make sure everyone is as well cared for as possible and at the end of a very very long day the huntaways,collies,heelers(depends on the livestock) are put in their warm kennel and run and are safe from themselves and any other threats.Its not like they run wild overnight and decide to go down to the local tractor shop a sip a few licks of anti freeze.The pyrs are glued to their charges(sheep) and wild horses couldn't drag them away.They think they are sheep actually.We think its more humane to use pyrs than bait with cyanide and god forbid they should use greyhounds........shudder.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

tierra nuestra said:


> Thank you.You and selzer have hit the nail on the head here.Although,fence jumpers,food for thought can have a nice outdoor kennel for free time but stretch hog wire on top.some use fish net or trampoline nets but they can tear if your dogs mouth it.This gives even the hardcase ones some free movement with out chains.
> 
> And yes,people think that if they go to a pet store it will cost a fortune,but do not use a petstore.Go to an agricultural or horse store and you can find amazing slip knot wire fence that is not hard on the eyes and affordable and you get like 300 feet for the price of one panel in a pet store.or if you have a back yard you can build it in and make an overhang so they cannot jump the fence either.
> 
> We have had customers ask after their house was done to incorparate a safe backyard for their pets.This is one way as well as digging in galvanized mesh under the fence so no one gets in or out(hint for people who have neighbours dogs digging in)I can even post a pic of the slip knot fence that we use.People who have high quality horses use it because it will not hurt the horse if they bolt into it,high tensile strength)Its alot cheaper than chain link.Like a 3rd of the price.:hug:


Love to see a pic of that fence  
My female literally climbs the fence. She has since she was about 16 weeks old. 
Taking her out on a leash is how we are managing her as of now, but have been looking at vinyl flat surface fencing. Would love to see your idea as an alternative!


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> I'm not going to comment.........


I changed my mind


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> You stated in a previous post before this it was YOUR right to judge.
> 
> Why are they not afforded the same thing? YOU don't know a thing about their living situation either.
> 
> Maybe you should take your own advice


I am not judging anyone out loud, though.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

valreegrl said:


> Love to see a pic of that fence
> My female literally climbs the fence. She has since she was about 16 weeks old.
> Taking her out on a leash is how we are managing her as of now, but have been looking at vinyl flat surface fencing. Would love to see your idea as an alternative!


Vinyl is expensive but attractive but a strong dog can push the plastic panels out of the run or valley.They can also chew it like crazy because its plastic.will get some pics up.If you look up ag stores in your area they will carry it.We have a UFA(united farmers of alberta) that carries it.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

:thumbup:


GSDolch said:


> There are many hazards inside and outside, I believe it is irresponsible thinking to think *nothing* will ever happen. Just because one dog doesnt do something mostly doesnt mean it ever will. There is no such thing as 100%...they are still dogs, and sometimes dogs will be dogs, regardless of what we think.
> 
> Its about weighing the pros and cons.
> 
> ...


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> I am not judging anyone out loud, though.



And that makes it ok?

wow.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't see how anyone can make a fair comparison between a working dog ( in the true sense of the phrase) and a dog living in an apartment. I would hope, if you live in a city, that you don't leave your dog out and unattended. 

However, to even remotely compare an apartment dwelling, non working dog, to a working dog on a ranch doesn't even make sense. My understanding from Tierra Nuestra's posts are her dogs are literally protecting the flocks? That there are times they are out and don't even come home that night? People included?

I don't even have the first clue on how Tierra Nuestra lives so couldn't begin to form an opinion on whether dogs working in that capacity COULD be brought in every night. I would make the assumption that if the dogs are working, herding and protecting the herd that there is no way a person could have their eye on them at all times. I would also make the assumption that these dogs are not simply pets.

Is that correct Tierra Nuestra?

You can't judge what you don't know. To do so, just makes you look ignorant. But if you do, you can expect people to scrutinize your own living arrangements.

Dogs have been bred for thousands of years to work with people. Why are some people trying to turn them into couch potatoes?


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## Pasture12 (Feb 15, 2011)

I know I haven't ever said anything, and maybe I don't have any business to now, but some things people have said are too d*** funny. 

First off, when you wash the sheep poo off the dogs, maybe the physical poo is gone, but the smell sure isn't.

Second, whoever said they didn't park their tractor in the kennel about made me spew coffee all over my computer.

And lastly, I just want to ask a question. At night after I'm done working and I put my dogs in their SAFE kennel, they have a purpose being outside. As much fun as buying a couple of king sized beds and sharing them with my dogs(poo smell and all) I would have no way of knowing if someone, or something(cyotes) was after my livestock. When they're outside, they can let me know about the danger and I don't lose animals.


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## Pasture12 (Feb 15, 2011)

Huh, well that didn't end up being a question, but i spoke my peace.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> Thank you.You and selzer have hit the nail on the head here.Although,fence jumpers,food for thought can have a nice outdoor kennel for free time but stretch hog wire on top.some use fish net or trampoline nets but they can tear if your dogs mouth it.This gives even the hardcase ones some free movement with out chains.


I have a very large back yard, totally fenced by 4' chain link. Just out side the fence is a large Oak tree that shades a great part of the yard. I also have a large back porch attached directly to the house. 

Inside the yard I have 1/4 of the yard fenced seperately in a dog run, but that gate stays open as on one as been banished to the run. I also have a 10' long 4' wide & 6' tall kennel inside the back yard. This 'prison' hasn't been used in a long time, but it stays just in case it is ever required. 

Attached on top of the 4' fence is hot wire. The electrical current runs 24/7. As the fence is 4' if a dog decided to climb the fence, it would get popped in the nose by the fence before it had a foot in the wire. Also, it discourages the horses from hanging their heads over the fence which could result in a nasty bite to either the dog or the horse, depending who was quicker. 

With this set up, I feel good about leaving my dogs (who are quiet) outside in good weather.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

In my opinion, this whole thing is an apples to oranges comparison, for the most part.

Working dogs on a farm are just that, working dogs. Most of them spend the majority of their time outside and prefer that. Fine, no problem.  Now, if you live on 5 acres of land, have no stock of any kind and just keep your dog outside for your own convenience, almost everyone would say that probably isn't best for the dog.
On the other side of the coin, if you own a 90 lb GSD and live in an apartment, but the dog gets all the excercise and stimulation that it needs and is well taken care of, who's to say that's wrong. The dog is well cared for and happy, so why is that a problem.
I grew up with GSD's, on a large horse farm. At times, we had up to 8 sheperds. They worked with the horses and some sheep that my family boarded. Only 1 or 2 of them ever slept in the house, or ever wanted to. They stayed in the barn, for the most part. I grew up in MN so the winters get pretty cold and nasty at times, but there is no warmer place in the world than inside of a barn filled with animals.

If you care about your dogs, you take care of them and give them what they need and what is best for them. Just because you don't agree with, or have never experienced, the "other way" doesn't make it wrong. I don't think there's any need to take shots at each other over it.

At the end of the day: "My dog, my rules." (as long as no one is being harmed or neglected)


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

CassandGunner :thumbup: (sorry my phone won't allow me to quote you without deleting part of it)


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Lilie said:


> With this set up, I feel good about leaving my dogs (who are quiet) outside in good weather.


And that, again, is training. :thumbup:


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I don't see how anyone can make a fair comparison between a working dog ( in the true sense of the phrase) and a dog living in an apartment. I would hope, if you live in a city, that you don't leave your dog out and unattended.
> 
> However, to even remotely compare an apartment dwelling, non working dog, to a working dog on a ranch doesn't even make sense. My understanding from Tierra Nuestra's posts are her dogs are literally protecting the flocks? That there are times they are out and don't even come home that night? People included?
> 
> ...


very correct but the sheep are herded into the small pasture next to the house.Pyrs should not be handled as pets as they will bond to you and not the sheep.They are in the true sense of the word a working sheep dog.We run my mothers operation as well.Which is a bigger spread than ours.

We have moved away from the foresty grazing in BC as it has had a troubling past with the economy and they closed down so many contracts.But in these situations,shepherds and dogs lived up on the cutblocks.The shepherds had small trailers and the herding dogs had movable and portable kennels but the pyrs always stayed with the sheep.I would like to post pics of dogs in extreme working conditions up on the blocks.It was an amazing few years while shepherding old world style.
I truly appreciate you trying to understand our lifestyle.And get an in depth feel for it.Especially as we have not seen eye to eye on certain things in the past.

And yes,you cannot even come close to comparing a working,herding dog and predator control dogs and their natural enviroment to a city dogs lifestyle.
The herding dogs are not truly pets but then they are in a sense as they are with you all day long.The pyrs no.I mean you always have a favourite(mine was a great huge guy named dino)They come to you and see whats up,they come when they have to be fed and vet checks and shots,but they do not come for affection or to be around just you.Their place is with the sheep and thats were they like it and where they want to be.Its in their genetics and training. 

The herding dogs have to be within eye sight every minute.They instictively want to chase.No matter the conditioning and training.There is always a chance that they go rogue.People may say well chasing is not so bad,but chasing a ewe who is 2 months prego will insure you will have aborted lambs dumped all over the field.

I guess I am stating all this because it is so vastly different than what many people know and they cannot truly understand let alone judge the situation until you've literally walked a mile in someone else's shoes.
And yes,I have had to live a long period in the city do to schooling and I ended up with serious stress issues because of the confinement and all the people.It was all so busy and I no time to think for myself.I had my dobby then to help.But he passed away here on the farm.

As of now we are using our 2 GSD'S with the sheep but they have a pretty easy herding dog existance compareds to how our collies had it. oso's stamina is pretty good but still needs conditioning in endurance and as he is still young and green he rushes sometimes but has managed to stop and think it through before he gets recalled back and has to sit out while another takes his job.

We shall see this summer if we trial him in competition in Olds.Yes he can group and push,he can single and seperate,he can even do chute work and push the sheep up but nothing compareds to a beardie I knew that would run the backs of the sheep to get the head ewe to move.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Others have said it before, but I'll say it again. Setups like Selzer's or working farm dogs that others have aren't the type of situations many of us are condeming. Of course dogs are dogs - they like to enjoy the sunshine and roll in poo and work the livestock.

Other outside dogs, however, don't have the kind of life you are describing. People get a puppy and put it outside in the kennel or on a chain. The only time the dog even sees people is when someone brings food to put in the dish. There is no human interaction, even then. The people then go back inside, having "taken care of" the dog. 
That is the type of situation that I believe the OP was refering to. And I agree, why get a dog?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> Others have said it before, but I'll say it again. Setups like Selzer's or working farm dogs that others have aren't the type of situations many of us are condeming. Of course dogs are dogs - they like to enjoy the sunshine and roll in poo and work the livestock.
> 
> *Other outside dogs, however, don't have the kind of life you are describing. People get a puppy and put it outside in the kennel or on a chain. The only time the dog even sees people is when someone brings food to put in the dish. There is no human interaction, even then. The people then go back inside, having "taken care of" the dog. *
> *That is the type of situation that I believe the OP was refering to. And I agree, why get a dog*?


That is what I thought too.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I find it really strange that this thread has been a little heated with some posters being strongly opinionated regarding their beliefs as to dogs being left indoors. 

However, I've been searching different web sites (puppy searching) and most of them show dogs / puppies outside - as well as whelping boxes that appear to be set up in shops, garages or kennels.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That was the original intent of the OP, to my understanding also, and then it went way off track with a very few people throwing criticism at people that have working dogs.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> We shall see this summer if we trial him in competition in Olds.


When is that? I'm only 20 mins away, and would love to come watch!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Dainerra said:


> Other outside dogs, however, don't have the kind of life you are describing. People get a puppy and put it outside in the kennel or on a chain. The only time the dog even sees people is when someone brings food to put in the dish. There is no human interaction, even then. The people then go back inside, having "taken care of" the dog.
> That is the type of situation that I believe the OP was refering to. And I agree, why get a dog?


Or worse, something like this and yes, why get a dog? 



 Alice, surrounded by feces and urine 
_ Photo: SoCo Rescue _ 



Continue reading on Examiner.com: Help needed for dog in the box in Georgia - National Dogs | Examiner.com Help needed for dog in the box in Georgia - National Dogs | Examiner.com
​

My own personal - because my dogs are my pets and not part of my work (and if they were it's still inside) I like to be able to monitor what goes in their mouths, how they act with each other and have the control I cannot have if they were outside. 

The outside puppies you are seeing on websites do not mean that is the best way to do things or not...I see kids riding on top of cars on the internet...that's an easy example of a not, but I have seen dogs on this forum who have whelping rooms indoors, so I would ask questions instead of going with what you may see the most of, or see often.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I work 13 hours a day, 4 days a week. I have my own horse property and care for all my animals myself. I have 4 German Shepherds and 3 little dogs, 2 terriers and a Chihuahua. I wake up and spend an hour and a half before I leave for work turning my horses out and cleaning their stalls. I have my dogs loose with me and they accompany me on the job, following me to each stall etc.. I lock my Shepherds up in 12x12 box stalls on shavings in a very nice barn while I am gone, mostly to make sure they don't pester the horses while I'm gone. The little dogs are locked in my garage. I return from work and the whole routine starts again, though evening chores are 2 hours, the dogs again accompany me on our chores, almost like they feel a sense of obligation to escort me from stall to stall to paddocks, when I go in the house the Shepherds stay out, and this is when their fun begins, as they finally have a chance to cut loose and run around wrestling with each other, or squirrel hunting etc. I have a safe, completely enclosed property and I have no qualms what so ever having my dogs free to romp around and play, they don't want to come in and be couch potatoes!!!! They have been kenneled for 13 hours and want to run and play, they have the option of coming into my garage which is open for them, they have wooden boxes filled with straw for warmth, and when it gets really cold, I have a heat lamp overhead fixture that they have available to them, but guess what? They rather be outside doing what dogs do, they don't bark endlessly from boredom, cause they are not bored, they are dogs, doing what dogs do and loving it, my little ones would love to have their life, everytime I walk by the door they run to go out, it's just not as safe for them due to the large owls I have.

I use to believe that horses should only have cushy knee deep in shavings stalls as well, anyone putting their horse out in corrals or pastures was just lazy, well after having property, my horses are absolutely claustrophobic about stalls, they want to run and kick and bite and scratch each other, they are horses, and thats what horse have done since the beginning of time, I have learned not to put people comforts in animals lives, they have their own ideas of living the good life, and I have NO DOUBTS mine are!!!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

LARHAGE said:


> I use to believe that horses should only have cushy knee deep in shavings stalls as well, anyone putting their horse out in corrals or pastures was just lazy, well after having property, my horses are absolutely claustrophobic about stalls, they want to run and kick and bite and scratch each other, they are horses, and thats what horse have done since the beginning of time, I have learned not to put people comforts in animals lives, they have their own ideas of living the good life, and I have NO DOUBTS mine are!!!


Not to mention the first thing they do when you turn them out is find the nastiest place to roll in.....


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

LARHAGE said:


> I work 13 hours a day, 4 days a week. I have my own horse property and care for all my animals myself. I have 4 German Shepherds and 3 little dogs, 2 terriers and a Chihuahua. I wake up and spend an hour and a half before I leave for work turning my horses out and cleaning their stalls. I have my dogs loose with me and they accompany me on the job, following me to each stall etc.. I lock my Shepherds up in 12x12 box stalls on shavings in a very nice barn while I am gone, mostly to make sure they don't pester the horses while I'm gone. The little dogs are locked in my garage. I return from work and the whole routine starts again, though evening chores are 2 hours, the dogs again accompany me on our chores, almost like they feel a sense of obligation to escort me from stall to stall to paddocks, when I go in the house the Shepherds stay out, and this is when their fun begins, as they finally have a chance to cut loose and run around wrestling with each other, or squirrel hunting etc. I have a safe, completely enclosed property and I have no qualms what so ever having my dogs free to romp around and play, they don't want to come in and be couch potatoes!!!! They have been kenneled for 13 hours and want to run and play, they have the option of coming into my garage which is open for them, they have wooden boxes filled with straw for warmth, and when it gets really cold, I have a heat lamp overhead fixture that they have available to them, but guess what? They rather be outside doing what dogs do, they don't bark endlessly from boredom, cause they are not bored, they are dogs, doing what dogs do and loving it, my little ones would love to have their life, everytime I walk by the door they run to go out, it's just not as safe for them due to the large owls I have.
> 
> I use to believe that horses should only have cushy knee deep in shavings stalls as well, anyone putting their horse out in corrals or pastures was just lazy, well after having property, my horses are absolutely claustrophobic about stalls, they want to run and kick and bite and scratch each other, they are horses, and thats what horse have done since the beginning of time, I have learned not to put people comforts in animals lives, they have their own ideas of living the good life, and I have NO DOUBTS mine are!!!


Is it wrong that I wish I had your life or your dogs life?? LOL I would love to work in a barn with horses! haha oh well, maybe one day!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> And that makes it ok?
> 
> wow.


Everyone judges people, you and I included. The fact that I am not openly flaming or attacking people means that I can be civil and keep my thoughts to myself, regardless of what they may be. 



Pasture12 said:


> First off, when you wash the sheep poo off the dogs, maybe the physical poo is gone, but the smell sure isn't.


If you're living on a farm, you'll never notice the smell anyway. 

To everyone who's telling me I'm an idiot for thinking that farm dogs should be kept inside- what is the purpose? As I've said, I've lived and worked on a farm and none of the dogs stayed outside because the farmers felt it was unsafe. They went out and worked ALL day, then came home and came inside with everyone else to eat. 

SO, what is the purpose of keeping them outside? Because they aren't pets and you don't appreciate them that way? Because that is what I'm getting out of it, and I can't condone that thought much more than I can the original.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> I don't need to prove anything to you. It is YOUR issue if your dogs attack each other and die while they're outside. I keep mine inside to avoid such issues, so please don't attack me just because I don't agree with you.





DJEtzel said:


> I am not judging anyone out loud, though.


You've sure as heck judged me outloud, claiming my dogs have died outdoors, etc. only because I've had the guts to respond to your hypothetical _"what ifs"_ Actually it's more than judging. You're the one making these outrageous claims, I've just been responding to them. With that I'm through with you and your holier than thou attitude that doesn't hold water.
opcorn:

JESSIE - I NEED THOSE SPECIAL BROWNIES NOW!!!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Konotashi, are you still even reading this???  Well, at least we all got some of Jessie's brownies. Next time I want the ones with chocolate frosting, okay?

I bet 99.99% of everyone on this forum treats their dogs in a safe and humane manner just because they care enough about them to search (on this forum) for more information and people of a similar mindset (GSD lovers). Even the hated rottweiler breeder appears to be making a decent looking kennel for his puppy mill. What I'm getting at here is that I don't think we need to decide to be offended by anyone's statements here. I think everyone who has replied on this thread takes great care of their dogs. Why turn it into a "Who's the better owner" contest? We are all good owners.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Lilie said:


> Not to mention the first thing they do when you turn them out is find the nastiest place to roll in.....


 

 Especially the white spots on pintos!!!!


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

krystyne73 said:


> Is it wrong that I wish I had your life or your dogs life?? LOL I would love to work in a barn with horses! haha oh well, maybe one day!


 
Hey you are welcome anytime to come out and grab a pitchfork!!! :smirk: It's a hard life and my family thinks I'm insane with so many horses and dogs all by myself, but I'm kind of a loner to an extent, I work with a lot of people during the day in a high pressure job, the animals are the soothing end of the day, I love to hear the horses munch their hay, and my dogs, they are my absolute best friends, as well as my protectors and companions, it works for us, we are all happy.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Everyone judges people, you and I included. The fact that I am not openly flaming or attacking people means that I can be civil and keep my thoughts to myself, regardless of what they may be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Because it's what works for those people, just like your situation works for you, simple as that.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

I need a brownie.....with a side of Ben&Jerrys.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

liv said:


> When is that? I'm only 20 mins away, and would love to come watch!!


PASU SHEEP FARMS IS WHERE IT WAS HELD THE LAST TIME.THEY HAVE AMAZING COMPETITORS(ALOT OF AUSSIES AND NEW ZEALANDERS) THAT COME OVER AND DO JAW DROPPING STUFF WITH THEIR DOGS.
But there aren't just border collies but huntaways who use there bark to control the sheep,beardies who are amazing acrobats when it comes to chute work ect.Its been a couple years since I went but deffinately this year is a must.Pasu also sells the most wonderul things, all things sheep.If you are only 20 mins away youmay have seen the signs on the #2 highway.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

bunchoberrys said:


> I need a brownie.....with a side of Ben&Jerrys.


Mmmmmm brownies!


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

*:thumbup:Alberta Stock Dog Association has all upcoming info for stock trials.*


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Or worse, something like this and yes, why get a dog?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aaaaawwwww....This is unimaginable.To live in this and know that the next day will probably be more of the same.Just as a part punishment they should make the offender live with the same treatment and conditions in the same filthy little box for a good month.Wonder how his attitude towards humane treatment of animals might be then.Poor girl.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> PASU SHEEP FARMS IS WHERE IT WAS HELD THE LAST TIME.THEY HAVE AMAZING COMPETITORS(ALOT OF AUSSIES AND NEW ZEALANDERS) THAT COME OVER AND DO JAW DROPPING STUFF WITH THEIR DOGS.
> But there aren't just border collies but huntaways who use there bark to control the sheep,beardies who are amazing acrobats when it comes to chute work ect.Its been a couple years since I went but deffinately this year is a must.Pasu also sells the most wonderul things, all things sheep.If you are only 20 mins away youmay have seen the signs on the #2 highway.


I know PaSu well - I actually went to a trial there when I was a kid. I'll have to convince my DH that we can go camping later that weekend, since we go through Olds  I love watching Beardies, and I've never actually seen huntaways work. Now I'm excited


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lilie said:


> I find it really strange that this thread has been a little heated with some posters being strongly opinionated regarding their beliefs as to dogs being left indoors.
> 
> However, I've been searching different web sites (puppy searching) and most of them show dogs / puppies outside - as well as whelping boxes that appear to be set up in shops, garages or kennels.



Just because they may have pictures like this:









Does not mean they do not also have this:









This:









And this:









Most of my pictures are outside, because the camera works better with natural lighting.


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## Pasture12 (Feb 15, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> If you're living on a farm, you'll never notice the smell anyway.


Not exactly, while it's true you get used to it, it never really goes away. In fact, noticing that when horse manure(and other animals) smells off is a good in indicator that something might be wrong.

I promise I'm not wanting to argue, nor do I think your an idiot in any way. I think it's great that you care so much about your dog's wellbeing.

I think that you and I and pretty much everyone on here loves and takes great care of their dogs. If we all agreed about everything life wouldn't be much fun.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Ah Sue those pups are so devastatingly gorgeous!

Anyway, farm dogs aside... I recently called ACO on my neighbor, anonymously, just last week, actually, when it was frightfully cold. I had Remi out around 1 am a few nights here and there the past couple of months, to do his business if he woke up, and those times I noticed my neighbor 2 houses down had their Yorkie chained outside, but their lights were off. I heard it's chain rattle and it's tags jingle. I know that house, and it doesn't have any covered porch or garage area, and you can't have doghouses here - nevermind the fact that it's a YORKIE, and a tiny one at that, in freezing temps in Ohio. I was outraged. But as in the past I've had my house egged for calling the cops on brats who stole out of my mailbox, I decided to just call ACO on them instead of complaining directly to them. Not sure what they're going to do, but I did my duty by calling. Hope they advise them to let the poor animal inside at night.

They got the dog in the first place for their kids - but get this - it's their 2nd Yorkie. The first was allowed to run loose on the golf course and streets - until it wandered into the wrong yard one day and was mauled to death by a chained dog. Instead of learning their lesson, they appeased the kids with a second dog, who is also always running around everywhere. It is not walked. It barks constantly. The kids don't play with it, in fact one day one of them had a friend over, who asked why she couldn't touch him, to which the daughter replied, "He bites, mom says it's cause we don't play with him." So WHY not just GIVE HIM UP?! If no one wants him, give him to someone who does, ugh. Although if he bites, he'll just be PTS, poor thing.

So advise to people with kids just "begging for a dog" - the kid may end up not giving two craps about the animal, so be careful. And don't leave it tied up outside 24/7, geeze.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Everyone judges people, you and I included. The fact that I am not openly flaming or attacking people means that I can be civil and keep my thoughts to myself, regardless of what they may be.



I never said people didnt do that. I know people do that. However doing it and then screaming "don't judge me!" screams hypocrite.

Judge/be Judged...whatever, I could really care less but you cannot expect to be able to do it and then get upset when someone is doing the same thing you are doing.

Sometimes things don't come out in word like we want them to, it happens,but thats why its good to reread sometimes. (Something I think you should do, you arent really as civil as you want to think you are)


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Larien said:


> Ah Sue those pups are so devastatingly gorgeous!
> 
> Anyway, farm dogs aside... I recently called ACO on my neighbor, anonymously, just last week, actually, when it was frightfully cold. I had Remi out around 1 am a few nights here and there the past couple of months, to do his business if he woke up, and those times I noticed my neighbor 2 houses down had their Yorkie chained outside, but their lights were off. I heard it's chain rattle and it's tags jingle. I know that house, and it doesn't have any covered porch or garage area, and you can't have doghouses here - nevermind the fact that it's a YORKIE, and a tiny one at that, in freezing temps in Ohio. I was outraged. But as in the past I've had my house egged for calling the cops on brats who stole out of my mailbox, I decided to just call ACO on them instead of complaining directly to them. Not sure what they're going to do, but I did my duty by calling. Hope they advise them to let the poor animal inside at night.
> 
> ...



omfg...it would have took everything I can to not go and get the poor thing out of their yard.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think everyone here has good intentions and does whats best for them AND their dogs. There are dangers inside and outside the home. 

My dogs are inside outside dogs. They like being outside and inside. Molly will go outside and sunbathe, and Tanner will go outside do his business and walk around a bit, but will want to come back inside with us. They like to come inside at night, they also don't want to go out in the rain, they will go out do their business and come right back in. I feel safe if they are inside with me at night. I don't own a ranch or herd sheep or have any other livestock. I got my family and home to worry about. My dogs are well cared for, loved, and appreciated and they protect us and love us in return. My dogs are indeed spoiled and I wouldn't have it any other way. I plan on owning a small ranch someday, and will do what I can to accommodate my dogs and me the best way I can.


OK noow since its been asked and requested:

*Puts out a batches of special brownies with chocolate frosting*

ENJOY!


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> ...
> *Puts out a batches of special brownies with chocolate frosting*
> 
> ENJOY!


 
opcorn:
Do they go well with the popcorn I've been eating? LOL

As for the yorkie that was chained up in Ohio.... ya, I think that was the idea in mind with the OP's reference to an "outdoor dog". 

I would catagorize that as a "neglected" dog. Even though it probably gets water and food, a dog can be neglected. That poor yorkie certianly sounds like one.

That's one thing my outdoor dogs aren't, and that's neglected. 

So no, it's just not right in my opinion for someone to have a dog, if it's just going to be neglected. But the same thing goes for children in my opinion. And that's just a matter of getting off the sofa and turning off the TV once in a while.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Davey Benson said:


> opcorn:
> Do they go well with the popcorn I've been eating? LOL
> 
> As for the yorkie that was chained up in Ohio.... ya, I think that was the idea in mind with the OP's reference to an "outdoor dog".
> ...


If you want.lol

I would go ninja style and get the dog and RUN!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I live in a highrise apartment and so Stark is only outside when I am outside - usually 2-3 hours per day maybe more depending on what we are doing.

I know for a fact that he would LIVE OUTSIDE if I let him. He loves the outdoors and when we are at my parents home (acreage) he will spend all day outside with either myself, my dad or my grandpa. Any chance he gets to be outside he would be.

I don't know how he would do if he was out on his own say in a outdoor kennel, but my guess would be that he would be fine for a few hours.

I like my dogs inside, safer and that way I know exactly what they can get into. My fear is someone hurting them without me there to stop them. My dogs will be out with me and in with me. I perfer it that way.

Beau would stay in her outdoor kennel when we went away which was also enclosed in our fenced backyard. She had a dog house with insulation and a heater, a top on the kennel to keep rain and sun away and in the cooler months we would but up a wind breaker for her. She loved it out there. In her older days and the days when it was truely cold/rainy/hot she would of course stay indoors.

Here's a photo of her set up - you can kind of see it in the back.


















This is where she spent most of her time though, in our kitchen on "her" blanket.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> I was just wondering what your guys' take on this was.
> 
> Personally, I don't see the point of having a yard decoration that you have to feed, water, pick up after, and listen to bark because they're bored and lonely. (This is what I'm asking about when I say outside dog - one that never comes inside, just sits in the yard).
> 
> Why would someone want an outside dog? Just to have a dog? I don't get it.


Addressing your post directly - I know what you're saying. My neighbor had a dog that lived in a small kennel in their back yard. Until after it died and they told us how sad they were, we didn't even realize they had a dog. It never even barked. I honestly thought it was just an old junky empty cage back there.


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