# nuclear DNA



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I've been called troll so many times I hesitate to start another thread; but I've looked at so many peds now, specifically east german and czech so far, that I probably ought to start keeping like a running tally of what I find. Personally I think Science currently over estimates the significance of nuclear DNA (that which male offspring may inherit from male parent). In terms of reproduction, FAR more is required of/inherited from the female (mitochondrial DNA) parent.
In any event, it's been said that most gsd alive today were sired by a descendant of klodo vom boxberg, and that may indeed be a good rule of thumb? This thread is dedicated to the exceptions of that rule. Again this is just a running tally, work in progress. I'll post them as I find them. Genetically speaking, if your male dog's sire's sire's sire's sire traces all the way back to one of the dogs in this thread, his nuclear DNA may be somewhat "diverse." 









first up we have V immo vom hasenfang SZ 568512 (DOB 1942)


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I ran out of coffee like an hour ago and my eyes are starting to cross here, but I'm afraid to move without jotting this down for fear I'll lose it. I just found a fork in the tree from whence akc conformation and z ps diverge









In other words _BOTH_ 2019 westminster BOB marquis' hermes v *KEN*lyn _AND







_
IPO3 KENn jipo me go back to SV 568512 immo vom hasenfang by way of








Axel von der Deininghauserheide, who sired both... ARGH! must. have. coffee.
for now lets just say he grandsired both








SEL CH (US) fortune of arbywood 1957 _AND _sired








"old mr working gsd lines" himself, the one, the only, Alf vom Nordfelsen (look at all those progeny!!)








all the aforementioned individuals pictured above descend from Nestor vom Wiegerfelsen 1934

whew!


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Look for "Iceberg Breeders" in the bloodlines forum.There is tons of info that would be of interest to you in that thread.Might save you some time and save your eyes


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I know should switch to tea... I've been on a roll...



dogma13 said:


> Look for "Iceberg Breeders" in the bloodlines forum.There is tons of info that would be of interest to you in that thread.Might save you some time and save your eyes


 good call: *ICEBERG BREEDERS *I've taken enough core samples of all standard living modern "types" that it looks to me like you've either got an immo, or a klodo.








I expect/hope to find a hidden gem or two in the whites, but from what I've seen so far there's quite a bit of "nuclear" *introgression* via berger blanc suisse now. I appreciate introgression as a tool in rational breeding, but only on the mitochondrial side of a pedigree. I fear this may dq most berger blanc suisse, right out of the gate...

I'm attracted to the breed because it is, or at least was, THE most purposefully, precisely, deliberately on a grand scale, breed of dog ever developed. Admittedly, in modern times the breed has been surpassed by others (bsd/bc/ect) in every performance venue. However I assert those that did the surpassing did so at the expense of utility... but I digress...


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Eureka! Honeyhill, hoofprint, joyland, jo-el’s, regalwise, reeves royal acres, snowcloud, sundown, tumbledown, von finn, von taz, windstrom, etc etc. I just found 2 distinct, LIVING “nuclear” lines in about 15 minutes time. Just a few clicks effectively doubled the gsd genepool at large.








_SZ 275752_ another grafenwerth grandson









_SZ 52757_ linebred on horst/munko

Don’t underestimate that old fashioned type. *Nothing* wraps around a bitearm better than a loong jaw attached to a narrrow skull. No telling what sort of hidden “mitochondrial” treasures are waiting to be found in the white peds?
Unfortunately no bbs peds @ euro-dog, and it appears bbs breeders did found lines on various white spitz type “nuclear” parentstocks, so you really have to do your homework. But it looks promising.








I am quite confident if a breeder simply introduced a bunch of seesaws, springpoles, tunnels, ramps etc on weaning day, a white cross litter would ace VPAT. I personally would throw in at least a starter pistol at feeding time, chainsaw, leafblower, windchimes, etc. Of course they wouldn't all be prospects, but I assure you there would at least be a pick. The genes are there. Lurking.

edit: I can't quite remember how the story went now, but either when sv dq'd white gsd a bunch of white gsd went onto dsd roles, or maybe it was when knpv dq'd white dsd a bunch of white dsd went onto gsd roles, but it's not entirely unheard of to get a bit of white from gsd x dsd and/or dsd x gsd. No idea what lines?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm going OT for a minute, but @ this point what does it matter? I'm just a lunatic replying to himself way out here in cyberspace. This dog just blew me away and I don't want to forget him.








_SZ 63851_ I'm not that into protection so really not my cup of tea, but just look at that thing. Eye sockets well forward in the skull, engineered to scan the horizon. Long jaw, narrow head, built for speed. A dog like that could run a bad guy down from a long LONG way off, and turn him into an amputee in about 20 seconds. Take a look at the ped & you see both parents were sighthoundy type. Take a look at the grandsires ("nuclear") and you can see it didn't come from them, so this is apparently a matter of "mitochondrial" expression.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

back on track now (standard peds)








_SZ 275752__ Erich vom Glockenbrink _I just ran into this dog behind a working litter. It's only the second time I've seen him, and I've been hunting hard. 

OT, I'm almost sure there are errors in the database. One little mistake throws the whole thing off.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Breeders, if you fool around with what you have on hand there and plan even just 3 or 4 generations out from where you are right now, you'll see how quickly the stuff in the middle gets lost forever.

The entire "house" is built on grafenwerth. So far I've identified only 3 living "branches": klodo (common), immo (less common?), and this dog (apparently downright rare?)








_SZ 275752_ This branch appears to be at the very edge of extinction. If you have a prepotent male from this line, don't just muddy up that nuclear DNA with males from the other 2 lines. Steward it. Preserve it. Anyone well heeled enough, for heaven's sake, freeze a bunch of this on file for future generations. As tech advances, so does Population Science.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

unfortunately at this point it appears all that's left to do is attempt to scare up some diversity by reverse engineering 30-40 year old peds. The AVK ("ancestor loss coefficient") I'm finding in the 80's-90's is just staggering. So many unique "nuclear" ancestors dead end @ female progeny, only to be mated with "flavor of the year" male offspring.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

On perhaps a more positive note, the old saying "use it or lose it" comes to mind.









in other words if you turn a pair of these loose in the woods and return just a few years later, you'll observe how fast a feral isolated population reverts back to wild type ("local adaptation"). Because mother nature simply doesn't care whether ANY individual manages to survive. It's just business. Not personal.









Natural selection culls so hard, surviving offspring have no alternative but to "linebreed."
This same formula applies directly to gsd.









_*SZ 869032 *_ it only took 10 generations of fairly passive (imo) "linebreeding" to get from here to there









_*AKC D775723 *_click the peds & count back for yourself. It happened just that fast, and artificial selection cuts both ways. In other words "intense" artificial selection (_ie; a dash or 2 of inbreeding followed by judicious selection_) accelerates genetic drift much more* RAPIDLY *than the typical "popular sire" breeding schemes we find in the database.









provided the artificial selector has very clear goals in mind...


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm going OT for a minute, but @ this point what does it matter? I'm just a lunatic replying to himself way out here in cyberspace. This dog just blew me away and I don't want to forget him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This dog looks kind of like a conformation disaster to me...


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This dog is stunning to me






Fortune of Arbywood


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Fortune of Arbywood




www.pedigreedatabase.com


----------



## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

Since when did GSD went to sloped backs?


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It takes a little time to recover once you've looked at Hoheneichen's Caisson Avalon

I'd cry myself to sleep for weeks if I'd created something like that, and I don't cry!

But to your point, I think both the breeders of this dog and the dog that follows probably did have very specific goals in mind. The former disregarded the standard while the latter adhered to it.

What's even more disturbing is that 


Thecowboysgirl said:


> This dog is stunning to me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This Fortune of Arbywood dog is 8 generations behind Hoheneichen's Caisson Avalon

Ouch!

And Berno, when DID they go to those sloped backs?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

1909









1918









1921










I assume v stephanitz ideal was a very slight roached back, as is observed in nature.









Big game houndsmen simply breed best x best, which always results in a slighty roached pack.
It takes a roachback to catch a roachback, I guess?









Maybe it's a giant conspiracy to sell more dogs? Maybe sturdily built dogs cover too much ground for the city? Or maybe it's simply a case of: if one beer is good, 30 beers_ "must be" _great...
I just hope I don't get banned for sayin' so...


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

If you have time pick through some of the old threads about when the gsl began to get the red coat and extreme angles.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

In another thread someone brought up this dog: 






Volker vom Zollgrenzschutz-Haus


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Volker vom Zollgrenzschutz-Haus




www.pedigreedatabase.com





Beautiful structure, and a very interesting pedigree!

I searched a bit, and his influence "seems" to have been at least notable to achieve ROM status, but for the life of me I couldn't find anything but dead ends looking at progeny. Terrible shame! What a handsome specimen, and no trace of Utz or Klodo in him!



Volker v Zollgrenzschutz-Haus



Have you seen this dog berno?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

_SZ 935474 _never seen him before, but I know he didn't get that neck from laying around.
A quick skim of his g grand peds suggests these 2 were targeted.









_SZ 461797_

_








SZ 488233 _

and by now I'm sure you're aware of my affinity for the _WILD_ ones!









_SZ 308711_

_







_
_SZ 191537_









SZ 62307









SZ 63374


----------



## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

how rare are liver coated gsds?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> In another thread someone brought up this dog:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's the great grandfather of Quanto von der Weinerau but not through the male line.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

This thread is kind of highlighting to me just how bad popular sire syndrome is. The Y chromosome comes from the father and we have very much limited ourselves on that. Of course pedigree database isn't perfect but it is a bit concerning and I can see why we would want to find less common male lines. Or where some benefits of outcrossing could be. Also many people were skeptical of using sexed semen. But so me this highlights one of the preservation standpoints of genetics it could be used for. To ensure all or a higher percentage of males in lines that are not as common.

Also _Erich vom Glockenbrink _, goes back to Hettel Uckermark which is the same male Klodo vom Boxberg goes back to. So they're both traced back to the same male line, just earlier than Klodo.

The few male lines I've been able to find that don't trace back to Roland, disappear into the US around 1920.





__





Roland (PH)(Abst.Unbek)


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Roland (PH)(Abst.Unbek)




www.pedigreedatabase.com


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Kazel said:


> Also _Erich vom Glockenbrink _, goes back to Hettel Uckermark which is the same male Klodo vom Boxberg goes back to. So they're both traced back to the same male line, just earlier than Klodo.


check out the BIG brain on Kazel!! I never even bothered to look beyond the klodo bottleneck. Well done! I see Immo goes back to hettel as well...



hirakawa199006 said:


> how rare are liver coated gsds?


 I don't know much about color genetics but my guess would be liver is some sort of dilution? In usa they seem less common than 30 yrs ago, but you can still probably find one available _right now_.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> check out the BIG brain on Kazel!! I never even bothered to look beyond the klodo bottleneck. Well done! I see Immo goes back to hettel as well...


Clicking on random entries in the pedigree database every single one of them has gone back to Roland on the male line. I think we'd be hard pressed to find any males that do not go back to him. I'd be interested in seeing how diverse the overall Y gene in german shepherds is. Mutations do happen of course so it has to have diversified over the years, but still would like to see just how much particularly based by line. This study was quite interesting. German shepherds had 3 maternal types and only one male type which makes sense after seeing how most are tracing back to one male. Also I feel like males that do not have the same type of Y chromosome could then be potential evidence of mixing. I'd be interested to test males from the brindle line of german shepherds, although similar breed types that they'd likely have been mixed with to create would have a high chance of carrying the same type of y chromosome.









Unequal Contribution of Sexes in the Origin of Dog Breeds


Dogs (Canis familiaris) were domesticated from the gray wolf (Canis lupus) at least 14,000 years ago, and there is evidence of dogs with phenotypes similar to those in modern breeds 4000 years ago. However, recent genetic analyses have suggested that ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Kazel said:


> Clicking on random entries in the pedigree database every single one of them has gone back to Roland on the male line. I think we'd be hard pressed to find any males that do not go back to him. I'd be interested in seeing how diverse the overall Y gene in german shepherds is. Mutations do happen of course so it has to have diversified over the years, but still would like to see just how much particularly based by line. This study was quite interesting. German shepherds had 3 maternal types and only one male type which makes sense after seeing how most are tracing back to one male. Also I feel like males that do not have the same type of Y chromosome could then be potential evidence of mixing. I'd be interested to test males from the brindle line of german shepherds, although similar breed types that they'd likely have been mixed with to create would have a high chance of carrying the same type of y chromosome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you, Kazel, for sharing that study! Very interesting (at least for geeks like me! LOL!).

A couple of, IMHO, really good quotes from their conclusions were:

"Alternatively, before the establishment of modern breeding strategies, recognizable dog types may have been maintained, but they were far less isolated from each other and from mongrels than they are today."

And;

"From this diverse pool of dogs some individuals were selected as founders and became the seed of new breeds. Due to this recent sorting from an ancient dog gene pool, dogs that belong to the same mtDNA or Y chromosome lineages do not need to be morphologically or behaviorally similar. Selection was centered on males and a bias in the contribution of the sexes may have predominated at the origin of most modern dog breeds."

I rest my case! 

Really don't have a case, just always wanted to say that LOL!


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> Thank you, Kazel, for sharing that study! Very interesting (at least for geeks like me! LOL!).
> 
> A couple of, IMHO, really good quotes from their conclusions were:
> 
> ...


Haha, hey it's fun to say. It seems instead of tracing specific dogs we should look for paternal haplotype groups.

Here is a shelter dog from Embark showing paternal haplotype found in samoyed and keeshound. As such I wonder if the dog was mixed farther back in it's pedigree and then bred back to german shepherds to produce a "pure" dog.









Embarking on Dog Ancestry Research | Embark


In dogs, like humans and other mammals, the Y chromosome (from here on, just Y) is one of two sex chromosomes (X and Y) and is found in only males and only in a single copy. This is in contrast to the X chromosome (which is in both males and females) and the 38 other ("autosomal") chromosomes...




embarkvet.com


----------



## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

If you are interested in Nuclear DNA, there is one string that was built on Nuclear. Frei von der Gugge all the way to Karn vom Fegelhof.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

_SZ 2050873 _karn v fegelhof


----------



## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Here is the thing though. It has to be a combination of both. I have not studied DNA as in book knowledge. I watch and observe through actual breedings. 

A lot of people will pick breedings based on males but the mother matters just as much.


----------



## dogtricks (Apr 19, 2020)

The mother also has a sire line and that should also be taken into account.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

dogtricks said:


> The mother also has a sire line and that should also be taken into account.


The point is though that the mother cannot pass on a Y chromosome, that will come from the only from the male line. I challenge you to find 3 random GSDs and follow the male line. I bet you the Y chromosome will eventually trace back to one dogs they all have in common. From the mother you get mitochondrial DNA plus one of her X chromosomes. This is strictly from what comes from the male line only.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Tikkie said:


> If you are interested in Nuclear DNA, there is one string that was built on Nuclear. Frei von der Gugge all the way to Karn vom Fegelhof.


He goes back to Klodo and as such back to Roland like all of the other males.


----------



## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Nooo way. I am appalled. 😱😂

Of course a breed has an origin. Every breed goes back to the same stock!


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Tikkie said:


> Nooo way. I am appalled. 😱😂
> 
> Of course a breed has an origin. Every breed goes back to the same stock!


It's more the fact that could regularly trace back to the exact same dog on the male line. There's a difference between going back to the same stock and almost all male dogs having the same Y chromosome from one ancestor. It's a good thing we have DNA mutations and crossover to get some diversity on chromosomes. Along with that I'm sure there are some dogs with hung papers in their ancestry that don't go back to the one dog, not offical but there nonetheless. Maybe also some incorrect records and not every dog or line is on the pedigree database.


----------



## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

“I'm going OT for a minute, but @ this point what does it matter”?

(Agreed)!


----------



## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

For berno-- a book recommendation you might like The German Shepherd Dog a Genetic History by Malcolm Willis. He's considered to be the foremost German Shepherd dog geneticist. And you might be interested to know that according to him, Erich v Grafenwerth appears at least once in the pedigree of every German Shepherd dog today. He is also the sire of Klodo v Boxberg. So there's one of your early genetic bottlenecks. (1920) But far from the earliest . . . .

I was able to identify more than 200 originating individuals in the breed, but the truth is that the preponderant genes of the breed come from a very few individuals, 6 females and 2 males, basically.

Males: Pollux v Hanau, a Swabian (Southern Germany) Herding 'Old Blood' dog and Greif, a Northern 'land race' herding dog.

Females: Prima v Hanau, a mix of Swabian (Southern) Herding 'Old Blood' and Thuringian (Eastern Germany) 'Yard' dog, terrier type
Schaefermadchen, Saxony (Central Germany) Herding 'Old Blood' type
Lotte Sparwasser, Thuringian (Eastern Germany) terrier type 'yard' dog
Mores Pleiningen, Swabian (Southern) Herding 'Old Blood'
Madame v d Krone the Elder, Swabian (Southern) Herding 'Old Blood'
Lori Brenztal (mother of Loria) Swabian (Southern) Herding 'Old Blood'

Lets start with Erich v Grafenwerth to demonstrate this. Erich was sired by Alex v Westfalenheim. 
Alex was sired by Hettel Uckermark. Hettel Uckermark was sired by Roland v Starkenburg. 

Roland was the first black dog, born 1903 twice Germany's Sieger and once Austria's Sieger. Roland appears over 800 times (over 800 lines back to) in German High line Canto v d Wienerau, Quanto v d Wienerau, and Czech dog Andy Maly Vah (mostly through the Pohranici Strasse lines) just for example. So lets take a closer look at Roland

Roland v Starkenburg was sired by Hektor v Starkenburg and his dam was Bella v Starkenburg. Hektor was sired by Hektor v Swaben, whose Sire was Horand v Grafath and whose dam was Mores Pleiningen. Hektor v Starkenburg's dam (mother) was Lucie v Starkenburg, whose sire was the aforementioned Pollux v Hanau and whose dam was Prima v Hanau, as above. 

Bella v Starkenburg was sired by Beowulf v Sonnenberg and her dam (mother) was Lucie v Starkenburg. Yep, same Lucie. 

Beowulf v Sonnenberg was by Hektor v Swaben--Yep, that same Hektor v Swaben, and his dam was Thekla v d Krone who was by Horand v Grafath--yes, him again! and her dam (mother) was Madame v d Krone the Elder as above. 

Now, since Horand v Grafath appears twice here, lets look at Horand. Father Kastor Rude, mother Liene Sparwasser. Here's were it gets interesting. Kastor's father was Pollux v Hanau (same old Pollux) and his mother was Schaefermadchen, as above. Liene Sparwasser's father was Greif (as above) and her mother was Lotte Sparwasser (as above). 

This is THE basic foundation genetics of all German Shepherd dogs. Lori comes in later through Horst v Boll who was the most popular sire with the most progeny of the first twenty years of the breed. Horst, with Luchs v Kalsmunt Wetzlar set down the foundation of the Kriminal Poleizei, the first major law enforcement family of the breed. (Though Swabian Service dogs had been in use for nearly a century already as police dogs and 'ambulance' dogs --what they called search and rescue dogs.)

Hettel Uckermark was the son of Roland and Grettel Uckermark, and Grettel Uckermark was the daughter of none other than Beowulf Sonnenberg (again). And to get Alex v Westfalenheim, Hettel was bred to Bella v d Leine--the granddaughter of his full brother, Guntar Uckermark. Alex was then bred to Bianca Riedekenburg, a daughter of Hettel Uckermark to produce Erich v Grafenwerth. I doubt you want to know how many times Hektor v Swaben, Beowulf Sonnenberg, Horand v Grafath and Polux v Hanau appear behind Erich, but there's a reason Alex was the first dog in which Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency was diagnosed. 

Just the facts. Have fun!

Note--pedigrees provided by Stephanitz, B H Wootton, Fred Lanting, and Miles Denlinger in their books, The German Shepherd Dog, The German Shepherd Dog, The German Shepherd Dog, and the Complete German Shepherd dog, bearing in mind that Stephanitz' book only covers to 1920 and Denlinger's was first printed in 1950. 



















'


----------

