# aggression and high protien foods??



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

My trainer threw something at me I would like to discuss with others.We were talking about dog food and I told him my only concern with switching to the brand he sells is the protein level.It is lower than the Fromm brand I feed now.He went on to say that "Lowering the protein for Athena may not be a bad idea either; it'll free up a few more serotonin receptors that the tryptophan's are holding hostage." So I went searching to see exactly what he was saying.According to what I read they have found that the higher protein makes some dogs more aggressive because it lowers these receptors.
This is one study I found that explains it easily.
http://vip.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/contentUpload/content_3052/KateRobson.pdf
This might be something for us owners going through aggression issues to consider.Any one have any first hand experience or heard more about this then I?

Mods please move if this is better under a different section.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

I was discussing foods with my rescue mentor regarding Max. I was talking about high protein foods as we were trying to get his weight up. She opined that she would not give a high protein food to a high drive dog, so that seems to follow the thought you present.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

It would be awesome to get a controlled study done on it.What if lots of aggression could be controlled with a lower protein diet.That would be awesome and easy.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I have read, and Victoria Stillwell mentioned this on one of her shows, that things high in carbs can increase serotonin. She suggested rice, carrots, things of that nature, she also had a natural type vitamin... I will search for a video of that episode.. She was dealing with a slightly insane Weim. 

Interesting theory.. I am going to do a bit more digging.

I am on a very, very low carb diet, and most of what I am eating now is meat, and I do have quite a short temper, and I really don't feel content most of the time. Been doing this for a couple of weeks. 
Maybe I'm just grumpy, don't know if it works the same for people.


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

The article was an interesting read. It would be more informative to go back to some of the references that were the actual studies (this article in and of itself is not a study). 
As an analytical chemist, I have a little problem with words like "significantly higher" without any supporting data within the text. These kinds of phrases are considered to be somehat subjective, so going back to the source studies and seeing exactly what the numbers were, would be a lot more informative.

How does this tie in with people doing raw diets and the incidence (if any) of aggression in that population of dogs?


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

I agree with Woodreb. With a sample size of 11 and no given statistical analysis, more information is needed. It'd be helpful to have a study conducted in which they actually manipulated food protein levels and measured if that affected aggressive behavior.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote:How does this tie in with people doing raw diets and the incidence (if any) of aggression in that population of dogs?


I have only myself fed 5 dogs on a raw diet, 3 German Shepherds, 1 Chow, 1 Min. Poodle. None showed an elevated amount of aggression for their breeds and all could be safely taken away from home. 

I have friends with German Shepherds, Huskies, unknown breeding feeding a raw diet, and none of them have ever had a problem with their dogs being overly aggressive. 

A properly raw fed dog is receiving a correct amount of protein, so I don't believe the source of protein would have anything to do with the theory of high protein equals encessive aggression.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Maybe some are predisposed to aggression and the high protein aggravates it.How would someone get a controlled study done.
I only read that page and found it interesting I didn't search anymore but I will be.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

Several years ago, I had a consultation with a behavorist about my Riley dog. She mentioned the same thing to me. She told me she became very interested in agression in dogs after having one that no matter what she did, she could not cure his agression. Because of this, she began studying agression at Cornell University. There is evidence in dogs that have this tendency that a lower protein food tends to be helpful. It makes sense to me. If a person goes on a high protein/low carb diet, the person's metabolic rate increases because it takes more energy to digest protein than carbs. Women can especially feel this increase as it sometimes feels like you are having a hot flash.

I have tried Riley on the no grain foods and after a while, he becomes a pain to live with. The behavorist said the study indicated it seemed to help if the protein level was 19% or lower. However, she has only been able to find good quality food at around 20-21%.


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## nysirk (Apr 15, 2008)

Ive heard about the high protein, aggression link before. It was mentioned in the book "The dog who loves too much" by Dr. Nicholas Dodman. Im not sure how I feel about it, not enough research out there just yet. 

Dexter was very barrier frustrated and acted very aggressive on leash. We were feeding him a chicken based holistic food. While i was trying to sort out his problems a friend with a similar problem had recently switched her "aggressive" dog onto a different food in order to try and help the problem, she had recently read an airtcle about it somewhere. She switched the meat score to a Fish based, and noticed a change in her dog. 
So I also deiced to also make a diet switch and see. So we switched Dexter onto a hollstic Whitefish based food. Its full of good stuff and tons of omega 3's and 6's. It really seemed to make a change, it didn't solve our issues but it really helped Dexter focus more and train better in those situations. I feel those omega acids really helped him THINK, not to mention hes got a beautiful coat and dosent shed much for a GSD. We even switched off the fish and onto a Vension based food, and just supplement in the omega's now, it seemed to help us. 
We never did try and lower protein food, it would be interesting to see some study's done on the whole diet-behavior link, heck it would even be interesting if they did the study's with humans.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Nysirk,What food did you switch to and how much of the supplement are you giving?I am ready to try anything harmless to see if I can get Athena calmer and more focused.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Wow, I would be very cautious about feeding a german shepherd anything below 25% protein. I suspect you will end up with a whole new set of problems including huge poops and some nutritional deficiencies. 

My Basu was an aggressive guy. He could go from couch potato to Cujo in 1.6 seconds.







He actually did best on a grain free food. There was no noticeable change in his issues. I would think you would most want to avoid preservatives, sweeteners, fillers and excess carbs (sugars). 

In Eastern medicine different foods are thought to have different properties as are people and animals. If your dog is overly aggressive that would be considered an excessive of heat so that means you should feed cooling foods, or at least neutral foods. 

The excellent book, "Four Paws, Five Directions" has a comprehensive explanation of this concept as well a list of different foods and their properties. I think you can read the chapter on line here: http://books.google.com/books?id=3lKjUDZ...snum=5#PPA81,M1

Here are some examples of animal proteins and their properties:

WARM: Chicken, Turkey, Lamb (HOT!)

NEUTRAL: Beef, Pork (cooler)

COOL: duck, fish

Grains and veggies also have their own properties.


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## KeiraPup (Jun 16, 2006)

Allie, I've been hearing the same thing. I've also heard it debated that high carb food is equally bad for agression so I don't really know.

Right now I'm feeding Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream. It's grain free but has a protein level of 25% which is considerably lower than most of the other grain free foods I've found.

I'm curious as to what the protein level is in the food your trainer recommended if you wouldn't mind sharing.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

This is for the chicken and rice flavor. California Naturals Guaranteed analysis:
Crude Protein (min) 21 %
Crude Fat (min) 11 %
Crude Fiber (max) 1.5 %
Moisture (max) 10 %
Vitamin E (min) 300 IU/kg
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.3 % 

Nutrient analysis:
Nutrient Analysis

Commonly referred to as Typical Nutrient Analysis (NA), this describes the nutrient content that a specific pet food formula is expected to achieve based on data from the formula database, or in some cases, from an actual laboratory assay. The goal in posting the Typical NA is to provide nutritionists and veterinarians with information that can aid in the treatment of clinical problems such as a cat with struvite or in working with overly obese dogs to prescribe feeding amounts and diet choice for the animal's success. For more information, read our NA FAQ's.
Protein 25.881 %
Arginine 1.892 %
Histidine 0.525 %
Isoleucine 0.955 %
Leucine 1.814 %
Lysine 1.458 %
Met-Cysteine 0.793 %
Methionine 0.542 %
Phe-Tyrosine 1.761 %
Phenylalanine 1.027 %
Threonine 0.952 %
Tryptophan 0.267 %
Valine 1.18 %
Fat 11.518 %
Linoleic Acid 1.32 %
Arachidonic Acid 0.067 %
Ash 6.231 %
Calcium 1.507 %
Phosphorous 1.029 %
Potassium 0.615 %
Sodium 0.308 %
Chloride 0.672 %
Magnesium 0.106 %
Iron 129.534 mg/kg
Copper 13.791 mg/kg
Manganese 31.767 mg/kg
Zinc 190.43 mg/kg
Iodine 3.325 mg/kg
Selenium 0.45 mg/kg
Vitamin A 18769.977 IU/kg
Vitamin D 1883.173 IU/kg
Vitamin E 301.62 IU/kg
Vitamin K 0.303 mg/kg
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) 3.951 mg/kg
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 3.349 mg/kg
Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 13.545 mg/kg
Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 38.035 mg/kg
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) 2.741 mg/kg
Folic Acid 0.574 mg/kg
Biotin 0.073 mg/kg
Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 6.864 ug/kg
Choline 2288.891 mg/kg
Taurine 0.119 %
Additional Nutrients of Interest
Omega 3 0.351 %
Omega 6 1.588 %
Linolenic Acid 0.257 %
EPA 20:5n3 0.004 %
DHA 22:6n3 0.004 %
EPA + DHA 0.008 %
Fiber 0.843 %
Carbohydrates 48.534 %
Glucosamine unknown ppm
Chondroitin Sulfate 0.0 0
Carnitine 0.0 %
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 12.703 mg/kg
Calculated Calorie Content* 3583.563 kcal/kg

*Calculated amounts may differ from packaging as some packaging values are based on available feeding trial data.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

This is the Fromm Gold Nutritional.There isn't a lot of difference now that I look at it.

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein	24% Min
Fat	16% Min
Fiber	3.5% Max
Moisture	10% Max
Ash	6.5% Max
Taurine	0.12% Min
Omega 6 Fatty Acids	2.6% Min
Omega 3 Fatty Acids	0.4% Min
Lactobacillus Acidophilus	100,000,000 CFU/lb Min
Bifidobacterium Longum	100,000,000 CFU/lb Min
Lactobacillus Plantarum	100,000,000 CFU/lb Min
Enterococcous Faecium	100,000,000 CFU/lb Min

Typical Analysis
Calcium	1.2%
Phosphorus	1.0%
Sodium	0.4%
Potassium	0.6%
Magnesium	0.12%
Zinc	135 mg/kg
Iron	229 mg/kg
Manganese	70 mg/kg
Copper	11.0 mg/kg
Cobalt	0.4 mg/kg
Iodine	1.53 mg/kg
Selenium	0.47 mg/kg
Glucosamine	400 ppm
Chondroiten	40 ppm
Vitamin A	18,200 IU/kg
Vitamin D	1,300 IU/kg
Vitamin E	180 IU/kg
Vitamin K	1.52 mg/kg
Vitamin B12	0.10 mg/kg
Choline Chloride	2,320 mg/kg
Niacin	82 mg/kg
Pantothenic Acid	26 mg/kg
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C)	38 mg/kg
Riboflavin	7 mg/kg
Thiamine	8.7 mg/kg
Pyridoxine	4.2 mg/kg
Folic Acid	1.0 mg/kg
Biotin	0.3 mg/kg


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't know about the nutritional link to aggression. What I DO know is that a TIRED and obedient dog is almost always a "good" dog - and not aggressive. If it were me, I'd spend 10 minutes per night on focus and tugging games with the dog (or ball if they will chase a ball but not tug) right after 5-8 minutes of obedience. That 10 minute session of tug and focus will tire out a dog 300% more than a walk - unless you are walking briskly for 3 miles. And even then I would argue it gets the dog's tongue wagging more. Not only that, that game builds a bond that's better than letting the dog sleep with you in bed. Just my .02. I have a dog that is dominant, has barrier aggression, is territorial and somewhat reactive unless on leash. On top of that, he is civil and has no qualms about taking on a man for real. This dog is my pet first, and has never had an incident in the two years he's been with us. It's hard to be aggressive when you're tired and locked into a down stay.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I've seen 'crazy' dogs on a high carb/grain diet become much more 'sane' when moved to a high meat protien low carb/grain diet, actually that's been more of what I've seen than the other way around.

I wonder if it's where the protein comes from.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

William Campbell feels that a high protein diet is better too. I read his book awhile ago and don't remember what that's based on though.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

BarbE, You could be onto something there with the source.What if they had a mild allergy to a protein and it made then agitated.This is a debate the will never get settled I'm sure.With our dogs I guess we could always try it and see if it made a difference and go from there.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Here's what I think...

I think that very few of the the "high protein" studies were done using "high meat". I think that the "high protein" studies were primarily done with high grains and protein boosters. 

For example, high corn diets are typically low in tryptophan, and thus act as serotonin inhibitors: http://www.smart-drugs.net/ias-tryptophan-article.htm Those high corn and grain diets also inihibit other nutrients that are important for the brain to work right: http://www.organicconsumers.org/school/aggression040405.cfm
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/161/11/2005

When I was training, the first thing we would do is get the dog off of any corn, sorghum, by-products, and the owner would be amazed at how much better the dog could focus and training went smoother. 

So when you hear about these studies, what I want to know, is exactly what diet was being fed -- as alluded to in previous posts, where is that protein coming from.

Here's the 0-3 that helped Max's ADD'ness a lot: https://www.vitacost.com/Country-Life-Omega-3-Mood


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Lisa, Is this supplement available at any stores or only online? I've been thinking about asking about homeopathic mood calmers so this might be a start.I am seeing a difference in Athena's concentration but I can tell she is still anxious.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I first got it at my local health food store - they were the ones that recommended it. 

Just tripped over this this afternnon:
http://www.xomba.com/can_fish_oil_stop_dog_aggression


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## jencarr (Apr 21, 2009)

Would this supplement help with anxious/fearful dogs? Is the Omega 3 Mood a supplement for people? How much do you give the dog?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I'll be emailing that to my trainer too.He gave me some people and books to look up but I am having a hard time finding what he is talking about so I might have written it down wrong.I think I'll be trying the omegas and see if it helps.


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