# What is a BYB? (backyard breeder)



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I have heard this term used many times. Usually derogatory about unacknowledged or uncaring people who breed pets without looking at suitability or puppy mills that breed to make $$$. 

I have also seen it used whenever a West German Show line has been crossed with a Working line regardless of how far back.

What is a BYB? Is it anytime a West German Showline is crossed with a working line even 4 generations back? Didn't all West German Dogs come from show lines (which may be a misnomer because all WGSL's have to be titled before they could breed (so they all carry titles). ???


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think it has to do with particular 'lines' but the lack of knowledge of the breeder putting dogs together. Purebred doesn't mean well bred.
I'm not a fan of the term back yard breeder, but it is easier for people to use byb when describing dogs thrown together for nothing more than someone trying to make a buck off pups.
And using AKC registered means very little if the breeder has no clue about the pedigree matching they are doing.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

So if someone says looks like a combination of WG lines and backyard breeder, are they seeing flaws?


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I don't think I've ever personally seen it used in terms of WL/SL crosses, as there are reputable breeders who have carefully done this. When the term HAS been used in terms of lines is to describe breeders who just throw dogs together, regardless of lines, without any thought about how the pedigrees compliment each other, etc.

My personal use of the term is for breeders who don't health test, and in GENERAL, who don't work their dogs in some capacity, and people with limited or no knowledge of the breed. Honestly, I would even consider someone who OFA's their dogs but doesn't put some sort of title on them or work them in some way a BYB. There are exceptions to that, but there aren't many for me.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> So if someone says looks like a combination of WG lines and backyard breeder, are they seeing flaws?


When someone says this, they're talking about someone pairing a WG line dog with a dog with nondescript mishmash"pet" lines. This happens when someone randomly acquired dogs and decides to breed them, usually. Typically, the problem with the mishmash pet lines is you have absolutely no idea what you're getting in terms of genetic temperament, working ability, and health, so that's why people don't like to see them when talking about pedigrees.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I understand and thank you. I still wonder if there wasn't some X'ing in an attempt to correct the HD problem. A lot of the X's I've seen occurred at a time when HD was at it's worst. Is this coincidence or was there an attempt to start mixing the lines to resolve the health issue?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Everyone has their own definition. I guess in general, it tends to be people who are not actually involved in the breed community (they do not title, show, and breed survey their dogs as breeding dogs should be), probably skimp on health testing, and choose breeding pairs based on looks or which dogs are available, not careful examination of the pedigrees and how those lines interact. It has nothing to do with the lines used or even if they are crossed, there are BYBs in every line, mixing every combination.

As far as outcrossing to eliminate HD....can't see this working since it occurs in every line and type of GSD, doesn't really seem to be any more or less common. Outcrossing CAN be helpful for health though, because it can water down a lot of the backmassing that has happened in every line (dogs being linebred on dogs that are linebred...). When you cross lines and types you still need to know a lot about each dog and how their lines have produced. I've got a WGSL/WL cross right now who has the best hip prelim I've had so far of all my GSDs but it's not just because he is the outcome of a fairly drastic outcross, it's because both lines used have sound hips.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you. I know it didn't work but there was so much line breeding with the WGSL that I thought they might have tried X'ing with American Bred working lines to see if it would help. There seems to be a big spike with X's on the pedigree database during the worst years for HD, but maybe that was just greed on importing one titled WGSL into a breeding program so they could pump up sales.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Let me google that for you


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you Sunflowers - I appreciate your in depth sharing.... If you will look below at the answers from some of your peers, you will find a difference of opinion.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sunflowers said:


> Let me google that for you



OMG- I have never clicked on that before!! That's hilarious!! How do you do that!!! I always thought, and still do, that's it a passive aggressive way of telling someone to do their own research. 

But how do you get it to show all that? Is it an app?


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LOL, I actually googled "let me Google that for you "!
Found this:

http://lmgtfy.com/

When I looked online to see what I could find, I found so many good articles that I just posted that.

I first saw that done on this forum, and thought it was very funny.


----------



## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> OMG- I have never clicked on that before!! That's hilarious!! How do you do that!!! I always thought, and still do, that's it a passive aggressive way of telling someone to do their own research.
> 
> But how do you get it to show all that? Is it an app?


I work in tech support and this is pretty much what I want to send to people all day long.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That link is slow...it should have shown this thread at the top of the list!


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> What? Nowhere in my reply was directed at you? Why are you so upset about it. If anything Sunflowers should be upset, I called her passive aggressive.



never mind.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought it was a cool link in that it actually demonstrated how to use google with the question at hand. Passive aggressive or not, it's a cool link. I think that is what gsdsar was saying, she was just remarking that the link was pretty remarkable. 

So what is this thread about? What is a BYB? 

The thing is, there is NO accepted definition to BYB beyond Back Yard Breeder. Most breeders have allowed dogs to breed in the back yard. It's kind of messy in the house, really. Are people who have the dogs breed in a garden shed or basement or garage or barn any better? 

It is a silly way to define a less than acceptable breeder. But what is acceptable differs from person to person. Some suggest any that do not title their dogs BYBs, some feel anyone who doesn't health test, some feel anyone who won't take dogs back at any point in their lives, some feel those who do not offer refunds or warranties, and the list goes on and on. 

I think we could break it down to a bunch of types of breeders:
Professional breeders -- that might mean people making a living off of dogs -- generally not well accepted, or it can mean people who breed dogs for working or show -- generally well accepted. 

High Volume Breeders -- but where do you draw the line? Above 3-5 litters per year? Above 9 litters in a year. 

Hobby Breeder -- could be someone with one or two producing bitches that spends most of their time and money as a student of every aspect of breeding, showing, trialing, training, working, etc., which is well accepted; while others see this as someone who has a hobby, for which they spend some disposable income and left over time on it, and aren't doing it for any serious goals, just a hobby -- not well accepted.

At the end of the day, anyone who puts a dog and a bitch together, either deliberately or by accident is a breeder. There are good breeders, bad breeders and breeders everywhere in between. Our needs may mean that what is most important to us in a breeder is different. It doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't breed with the emphasis on the stuff we feel is important is a BYB, it just means that what I look for in breeder is different than what you are looking for. 

I think we really need to draw a line in the sand. These things are a must for me, these things are desirable but I am willing to still talk to you on these things. At the end of the day, we, individually have to make a choice on breeders by what is most important to us.


----------



## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Very well put Selzer. I get what you are saying.

And, I do google silly questions a heck of a lot...


----------



## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Good post Selzer  

I would add: those that are breeding to better the breed are not byb... And yet, by whose definition is the betterment for? Show line, working line, health, temperament, titling, sar, herding, protection? Etc... So it is definitely a personal matter in deciding, however, I think most can agree that if anyone is breeding solely for money - randomly throwing dogs together just to get a litter or litters, as well as someone not carrying about the welfare of the pups or parents or who receives them falls into this category.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Personally I thought the LMGTFY thing was neat- I'm a techie and I didn't know about that. I read zero ill intention from it. Everybody just calm down.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you S & H. As you explained, there is a very wide range of opinions and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I have a better understanding now. Both your comments are the most closely aligned with my opinion now that I understand a bit more. 

The reason I asked this question in the first place is that the term has been used on this site many times. I had researched the net several months ago to find out what a BYB is. Every definition that I found was a negative one.

Often new adopters post here when they are unsure of how to look up a pedigree, only have a partial pedigree or no pedigree at all asking this forum what they think the line is. From what I've seen, many are told West German and probably BYB.

There may a more helpful response for a new GSD owner.

Because of what I have learned, the next time I see this question asked, I will respond. My own pup has some rather large gaps in her pedigree on the dam's side. Pretty complete on the sire's side. Through persistence and determination (it took hours and hours) I was able to piece together a lot of the missing data. I was also able to find the parent kennels and learn about their breeding lines and their goals. I found the locations and contact information of my pups "uncle" (which included a good explanation of his temperament and type by the breeder) and 2 siblings. I found that my pups great grandfather was a working K9 for our local sheriff department and was retired in 2002. I was also told several months ago, West German and probably BYB and for a long time, left it at that. I thought I was at a dead end.

My working career consisted of legal document research pertaining to real property contracts and transfers. I published an instruction manual which guides the layman document researcher through the process. It sells through Amazon. It seems the same basic document research principals can be applied to help new GSD owners gather information on their pups. I look forward to responding and assisting if I can.

You never know, there may be another instruction manual in the works! Thanks again!


----------



## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

A BYB is, on top of the above definitions, any breeder that someone on this forum dislikes, for whatever reason that person sees fit.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*I have edited out the OT posts and discussions resulting from those post.

Just a note: Moderators and ADMIN are allowed to comment on any post just like regular members. We are not just here to moderate or do other administrative duties. 

ADMIN Lisa*


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

BYB (and puppy mill, responsible breeder, etc for that matter) is a label designed to divide and to make one breeder feel superior to another. These labels are there to divide and conquer and thus help eliminate all breeders (we are all Puppy Mills in the eyes of the ARists). In my world there are breeders that I will do business with and those that I will not. People need to decide on their own criteria. Yes, there are some really awful people out there producing puppies, but there are also some good ones that would be considered BYB because they do not meet some perceived gold standard of a "responsible breeder". There are some others that people recommended over and over that I wouldn't buy a puppy from if they were the only breeder of GSD left on the planet. 

Lisa as a regular member and not with her ADMIN hat on.


----------



## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

Puppy mills are factory farms that treat dogs like machines that have to churn out maximum profit without regard to the animals' well being and health. The animals get only the minimum amount of care so that they keep producing. When they cannot produce anymore, they are killed or, if a mill rescue steps in, given to rescue to save the cost of killing. The setup is factory like with rows upon rows of small cages, basically gestation crates. Being anti puppy mill is not being anti breeder, it is being anti cruelty. 

Then there are small scale operations that have the same attitude towards animals as the factory farmers but there are far fewer animals and they are kept in makeshift pens, sheds, and whatever. Same exploitation, same cruelty by neglect.

Then there are whom I would call 'amateur' breeders who know nothing much about breeding or the breed they have, or about pet overpopulation, but like or even love their dogs, and don't mind making a buck if they think they can make a buck by selling puppies. Often they just love their dogs. And/or like their looks. No health testing, no performance titles. But puppy vaccinations and worming. My Elly came from such a breeder. Stellar dogs in the pedigree just a couple of generations back. He bred for color, black. He loved his dogs and when he couldn't sell them as he had expected, he didn't sell them for 50 bucks on CL. Instead he turned to breed rescue to take the pups and their mother. He cared about them and wanted them in good homes. And he stopped breeding. A nice man with good intentions but no knowledge about breeding GSDs.

And then there are the breeders who put good dogs together, do all the health testing, but don't know much about what is behind the dogs to make a knowledgeable match. 

And the importers, dealers who bring in already titled dogs from Germany to sell of breed from. 

Then there are the breeders from whom I would buy. Who have in breadth and in depth knowledge of pedigrees, who get performance titles on their dogs and who observe other dogs performing, of course do health testing before breeding, and raise their puppies in an environment that will bring out the best in them. These are the breeders that I'd not only want to get a dog from, these are the breeders I'd like to support in what they do. There are several on this forum


----------



## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

ApselBear said:


> A BYB is, on top of the above definitions, any breeder that someone on this forum dislikes, for whatever reason that person sees fit.


lol ^


----------



## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

RunShepherdRun said:


> Then there are small scale operations that have the same attitude towards animals as the factory farmers but there are far fewer animals and they are kept in makeshift pens, sheds, and whatever. Same exploitation, same cruelty by neglect.
> 
> Then there are whom I would call 'amateur' breeders who know nothing much about breeding or the breed they have, or about pet overpopulation, but like or even love their dogs, and don't mind making a buck if they think they can make a buck by selling puppies. Often they just love their dogs. And/or like their looks. No health testing, no performance titles. But puppy vaccinations and worming.


My sense is that these two types of breeders are often lumped together under 'BYB'.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

RunShepherdRun said:


> Puppy mills are factory farms that treat dogs like machines that have to churn out maximum profit without regard to the animals' well being and health. The animals get only the minimum amount of care so that they keep producing. When they cannot produce anymore, they are killed or, if a mill rescue steps in, given to rescue to save the cost of killing. The setup is factory like with rows upon rows of small cages, basically gestation crates. Being anti puppy mill is not being anti breeder, it is being anti cruelty.
> 
> *Then there are small scale operations that have the same attitude towards animals as the factory farmers but there are far fewer animals and they are kept in makeshift pens, sheds, and whatever. Same exploitation, same cruelty by neglect*.


What do we call these? Besides terms not allowed on the forum.

Shadow came from such a place, and I always have been unsure what to call it. Not a mill exactly, but not typical of BYB's who in my experience are usually uneducated not cruel.
He was shut down for good btw, thanks in part to Shadow.

Most of the BYB's I have run into are the ones who have a nice dog, or a couple of nice dogs, and just want them to have pups. Some do minimal health testing, some do lots, some do none. Most have no intent to harm, and in many cases their breeding dogs are loved pets. A few just love dogs and think it's a good way to make money. Sabs 'breeder' was a slug, but other then a callous attitude, which is actually typical of many farmers, and a lack of any sense of responsibility for the pups I cannot say he did anything horrible. It was his idea that shooting a six week old pup was an acceptable way of handling an unwanted situation that pushed me over the edge. And again, there are many who wouldn't find that in any way offensive. To me a BYB is on who is misguided not malicious. Intentional abuse or neglect, to me, classifies them as something else.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Most people have an understanding of the term "puppy mill"

It's irrelevant if the breeder is large or tiny, makes a profit or not. 

Titling a dog shows the dog can do the work or is a good representation of the breed. That is vital. It maintains the breed standard and allows the enthusiasts to tinker with genetics to produce their best. Many people want to purchase from these breeders for assurance that their pup will be coming from the best proven lines.

It seems that when most people familiar with a breed use the term BYB, it is meant to mean that a dog or pup may be from unknown breeding stock or unselected breeding stock. UBS would cover it if you wanted to use as an acronym. 

As with anything else a person purchases, it is up to the buyer to be informed prior to the purchase. It is up to the buyer to know that the dogs are in safe, clean and uncrowded environments and are healthy. It is up to the buyer as to what they will require (health certificates, titled parents, pedigree and reasons for chosen matches on breedings). 

The wide range of views on what a BYB breeder is diminishes the term to the point of being derogatory and meaningless. There are many very small breeders out there that suffer from this term merely because they are small. Yes there are bad ones, but there are bad large breeders too.


----------

