# Pick up on the retrieve - Help



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Since I'm working towards a BH/OB1 with Mirada, I have a question about the retrieve.

Mirada has a really nice, zippy go out on the retrieve, but without fail, she overshoots the dumbbell. She does not run it over, knock it, or play with it, she simply just runs past it and picks it up (cleanly) on the return.

Is this going to be a big problem? If it is, I want to start retraining the pick up now, and will happily take suggestions. Also looking for a quicker return, so suggestions on that would also be appreciated.

She's not terribly slow...she doesn't walk back, but she doesn't run either. She trots back, which is annoying since she charges out after it like a rocket. Again, if it's not a terribly big deal, I'm not going to fret on it, but if it's something I need to really fix, I'd like to get that done straight away.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

A lot of different things that you can do for these problems.

The first thing you may want to try for the pickup is to simply throw, or place, the dumbell against a solid object. A tree, or wall (NOT the A-frame or jump) for example. 

For a faster return, you can often make more speed by simply increasing distance. Throw the dumbell further and then as the dog goes out run backwards so that when the dog turns around you are further away. Many people use the system of throwing a ball between their legs as the dog returns, and this can be very effective. However, I don't like it because I do not like the thought of giving the dog the idea that it can drop the dumbell. But as I said, that is me, many use it very successfully.

There are many, many other ways to accomplish this, but, if I were you, I would start with these. They are simple, effective, and unlikely to cause problems that can occur with other methods if they are not done correctly.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> The first thing you may want to try for the pickup is to simply throw, or place, the dumbell against a solid object. A tree, or wall (NOT the A-frame or jump) for example.


Ah! Thanks! I've got several places where I can do this and get the issue fixed. I appreciate it!

Right now I'm doing the running backwards thing (after the pickup...if I do it on the go out, she comes back), but she'll only increase speed if she sees me doing it. She doesn't seem to get it that I want her to come in quick ALL the time. Should I continue in this manner and only mark for quick returns?

There are many things I really do like about her retrieve, I'm just trying to polish.



> Many people use the system of throwing a ball between their legs as the dog returns, and this can be very effective. However, I don't like it because I do not like the thought of giving the dog the idea that it can drop the dumbell.


I don't like it because I'll fall on my dog, lol. So I'm with you on that one.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Please tell me what you do now when the dog returns to you.

So the dog goes out
returns
is sitting front
Then what are you doing?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'd work out a way to speed her up a bit more, consistently. Personally I have not seen much success (just in general) when a dog is inconsistent and only being marked/rewarded for the "good" behavior. Maybe every once in a while I will tell my dog he didn't earn it b/c it wasn't right but in general I don't like that concept during the training process, if that makes sense? I think dogs are too much in the "now" and don't stop to think, "well I got a reward three times a ago so what did I do then that I'm not doing now....?" I'd rather just *make* it happen every time, whether that is drive, luring, force, props...whatever.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I tend to use the throwing the DB up against an object that Art mentioned. I actually do this a lot in just regular ball play/fetch with the dog, starting when they are young, well before I'm actually teaching a formal retrieve. That way the dog has practiced and habituated a slam on the breaks-grab object-spin around 180-start running again sort of pick up before we even get to the retrieve and as a result tends to pick the DB up the same way.

For a faster return, fast returns are a matter of drive level. The dog needs to be at the same high level of drive on the return as on the go out in order to show the same speed. How this is accomplished depends on the individual dog and what will motivate that dog for a fast return. Forced retrieving certainly accomplishes it, but that's not the method of choice for many people teacing retrieves (myself included), so other ways have to be found. It might be food reward, toy reward, just lots of praise, playing tug with the DB when the dog brings it back, etc... I've seen a couple people successfully use placeboards for this. This can be especially effective if the dog is trained to recall to a placeboard in front of the handler (often used to teach straight fronts) as it's not much of a jump in understanding for the dog to recall with a DB in her mouth.

Each of those can have unintended side effects with some dogs, like the throwing the ball between the legs causing the dog to drop the DB that Art mentioned, playing tug creating mouthiness on the DB. That won't happen with all dogs, so it can require some experimentation to find what works best to motivate that individual dog without creating any bad habits. Mixing up a variety of those things, both to keep the dog guessing (which builds drive) and to help prevent any sort of bad habits through anticipation, is usually what I do.

I don't like to do the back up thing in retrieves or recalls very often because it does often create a situation where the dog won't speed up unless they do see the handler back up, and the backing up becomes the cue for speed. That's a hard cue to fade, and also a bad habit for the handler to get into as accidentally doing it in trial can be deadly as far as points go.

What I will often do is work on really motivational recalls with restrained recalls, throwing the ball between my legs, etc... without the DB and then rather than just say "brings" when doing retrieves I'll say "brings heir" and add my recall word. If the dog has been conditioned to hit the afterburners when she hears "heir" then just using that word in retrieve training will through that association speed up the return in retrieving as well. And "heir" is an easier cue to fade out once the dog has habituated fast returns than backing up or most anything else.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> I don't like to do the back up thing in retrieves or recalls very often because it does often create a situation where the dog won't speed up unless they do see the handler back up, and the backing up becomes the cue for speed. That's a hard cue to fade, and also a bad habit for the handler to get into as accidentally doing it in trial can be deadly as far as points go.


And this is why it is important to backup as the dog is going out. The dog should not see the handler backup, when he gets the dumbell and turns around the handler should be standing as normal, only the handler is now very far from the dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I don't like the run backwards thing either, but I have seen turning and running away just as the dog picks up the DB and then turning back around for the front to actually work. I throw the ball between my legs and have good success with this in both my dogs that had play retrieves and forced retrieves. I always say out first and if the dog makes a mistake I just tell them "no/bring" and we do it over. I have yet to find a dog that didn't figure this out quickly. 

Something many people do is way too much formal stuff once the dog comes into the front position. Why would I run back quickly if my handler is going to make me sit there for ever, fixing the front, telling me to hold, correcting me for not holding, always show me the formal "aus/finish", etc? 

I do NOT like to ever make the DB a toy or tug toy. I have seen this cause conflict in too many dogs.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

All excellent ideas, and great thoughts 

Mirada will not tug with the dumbbell (I had to do this with Strauss to keep the dummy interesting for him after it was "Dead", but she doesn't need this).

I've got some young assistants that can help me with restrained recalls, to build up that drive and we can try and get her where she needs to be.

I've been very lucky in that Mirada just LIKES to pick things up and hold them, so teaching her a retrieve in general has been very, very easy (spoiled me, really). And when she comes back, she's not walking, and she is returning slowly...it's just at a trot instead of a gallop. Probably because she got the exciting thing she wanted, so now she feels she can just mosey on back. 

All the help is really great, and I'll be going out to work on these issues shortly. I generally don't enjoy training obedience, as it's a bit stagnant for me, but I have to admit that this little girl tends to make it really enjoyable


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Throwing longer does seem to really speed up Nikon overall, including a snappy pickup. I don't like backing up either, I just throw longer at the beginning.

One trick you can do is to find out which way your dog turns and do them a favor with your toss, tossing ever so slightly off center depending on which way.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> One trick you can do is to find out which way your dog turns and do them a favor with your toss, tossing ever so slightly off center depending on which way.


Rada turns left


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

So, interesting results. Just went and threw the dumbbell up against the wall, and since she couldn't turn to pick it up, I got immediate use of feet, an ever slower return, and a dumbbell that was dropped repeatedly x.x

If I threw the dumbbell with no obstacle to stop it, she still overshot, but turned around, picked up clean, and had a faster return.

Ever wonder what's going on in a dog's brain when such things happen?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I should check and see if Nikon's turn and pickup is even faster now that he's learned a box turn/swimmer's turn for flyball!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I bet the flyball training does help in speedy return.
I've found if I have Karlo wait a bit before sending him, his pick up and return are quick. But we are still in the proofing stage, so far so good.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

What I do is to put the dog in a Platz, like in a retrieve, to put the dumbbell between the dog and me and then ask the dog to bring it. This way the dog learns to pick the dumbbell first than doing anything else and also the rewarding behavior is to come to you with a dead object in its mouth, instead of picking a prey object that then is not so fun to have to give to the handler.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

That's a good idea, Catu. It's one I can try tomorrow


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Catu said:


> What I do is to put the dog in a Platz, like in a* recall*, to put the dumbbell between the dog and me and then ask the dog to bring it.


That's what I meant. I have the speed problem with Diabla and is what I'm working with. With Akela I am starting this way and only when he picks the DB straight, run fast and sits clean... then I will start throwing the retrieve with him at my side.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> So, interesting results. Just went and threw the dumbbell up against the wall, and since she couldn't turn to pick it up, I got immediate use of feet, an ever slower return, and a dumbbell that was dropped repeatedly x.x


There are big problems with the absolute fundementals of the retrieve. Perhaps, if you don't have someone who understands the retrieve to help you, you should be happy with what you have.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Maybe. Really, I wasn't unhappy with the retrieve as a general whole, just feel like I'm supposed to be striving for "better". My general thought is "the dog picked it up and brought it back....booyah".

I just found it interesting that without the obstacle blocking her from overshooting, she never dropped or put her feet on the dumbbell. Still overshot? Yes...but a clean pickup as opposed to when she's got a wall to contend with


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## khudak (Nov 2, 2011)

You could also use a long line to stop her from going past, but if there is not enough motivation (positive or negative) to grab the dumbbell than the interruption of forward movement from long line might cause her to not pick it up at all. 

You could use the whip to get her going faster on the return, but Id do that first with recall without dumbbell... and if she doesn't know she CANT drop dumbbell, she may drop it when you crack the whip.


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## khudak (Nov 2, 2011)

Where do you train at? I live about 30 mins north of Pittsburgh.. your not too far.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Nowhere right now, unfortunately. I'd LOVE somewhere to trian, and put out a couple of feelers, but haven't received any response.

I live in New Castle, PA, so it sounds like we really aren't too far apart at all.


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## Zarr (Feb 28, 2010)

You could try placing the dumbbell next to your dog - having your dog in a sit facing away from you - dog in sit, dumbbell a few feet from her, you behind the dog - give your command to retrieve, this way your dog simply has to go to her left or right side from the sit to retrieve it, rather than having to run after it and therefore running past it - sometimes back chaining or just going back a few steps in 1 part of an exercise can help. If she has a fast retrieve, doing it this way, won't hinder that, she just has to not go very far ( as in run ) to get it, but gets to run back to you for a play/reward...and in time you can slowly build up distance between her and the dumbbell.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree that it sounds like some main fundamentals are lacking. It appears she views the retrieve as a prey game of running out and catching something, but doesn't really understand the job she is supposed to be doing. This is why she's running after it and grabbing it in a very "drivey" manner, but then the rest of the exercise is very lacking. Her motivation has been satisfied once she gets the object and she sees no point or motivation to do the rest. She needs to understand the whole task, and be motivated to perform the whole task, not just go grab the dumbbell.

The retrieve is an exercise where I like to isolate different components, teach them separately and often later fix/reinforce them separately. It helps the dog understand exactly what they are doing right/wrong, and also helps keep the dog engaged and wanting to retrieve. As Lisa mentioned, if you always make the dog come back and sit and hold it, then give it up and finish, yada yada as in a trial, the earlier parts of the retrieve can suffer. Most notably the return as getting to sit and hold in front isn't exactly a great reward to the dog. Certainly not one worth rushing back for.

It sounds like for starters you need to work on her picking up and holding the DB when it is not a prey object. Hold it in your hand or set it on the ground rather than throw it. This way you can make picking it up, holding it and eventually bringing it to you the rewarding part of the exercise, rather than chasing and grabbing it out of prey. I bet a lot of your pick up problems will be resolved once she has a different, more correct understanding of the retrieve and isn't just chasing a prey object.

Once she has the basics, I like to do some exercises like Catu described. One variant you can add to help polish the pick up is to sit/down the dog, place the DB a few feet in front of the dog, and then you step several feet behind the dog and command the dog to retrieve. Then the dog goes out, picks up, and returns, isolating those parts of the retrieve without the handler throwing it and engaging prey drive when throwing.

The retrieve really is something that needs a lot of focus and to be done correctly. It's very easy to mess up and create bad habits that can be difficult to break. It amounts for 40 out of 100 pts in a SchH routine, including the OB1, and that means that if a dog can't retrieve, it can't pass. And as there are 3 retrieves, any common mistakes the dog makes are likely to be made 3 times, resulting in a triple point loss. So it's very important to set a good foundation and have good retrieve training, and that may require help beyond internet advice. If you don't have SchH people to work with, AKC people can help you with the retrieve. Adele Yunk's "Positively Fetching" video is very good at showing how to shape a retrieve as well, but still videos don't hold a candle to hands-on help.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

She picks up dead objects (dumbbell included) happily, with the same amount of drive, but I do agree that once she picks up the dumbbell, her personal desire has been satisfied, so it "dies" on the way back.

I'll do more dead retrieves, and see where that gets us


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

You can use a flexi to speed up the return. Especially on dead retrieves. it might not take much of a correction -- just a little tup on the dead ring of the collar to keep her moving at the speed you want.


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