# Rear leg weakness and loss of appetite



## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm new here, but have had several GSDs over the years. They've never had any health issues that the vet couldn't figure out. Now I've got TWO and both have some major issues with no diagnosis. 

A month or so ago, maybe less, our older girl (10) started showing some issues with her hind legs giving out. No indication of pain, and it came on suddenly, and would go away as quickly. She would try to go up the stairs on the deck, and her back end would collapse. She was try to figure out what to do, and after a few seconds she was able to get them back under her and climb the stairs. We didn't immediately do anything about it since we were in the middle of our younger girl's vet bills for some liver problem.

In the last several days it's gotten worse, and she's also pretty much stopped eating at all. She's lost quite a bit of weight over the last couple weeks. Her eating had been slowing over the last couple years, but she was maintaining her weight, so we didn't notice right away when it got worse. 

Anyway, we took a urine sample to the vet with her this morning, since that's usually the first thing they'll look at. Vet said there were a lot of crystals. Not sure if that could just be from not getting enough water to flush things out, or if it's a major clue to the issue she has. They are keeping her for the day to run some x-rays and possibly blood work. The two symptoms she has don't seem to point to one particular illness, so I'm just trying to get some ideas of what we might be dealing with, so I can talk to the vet. It didn't sound like the vet was very optimistic based on first impressions. Part of that is probably based on her age, and the vet being realistic about what we'd want to do for a 10 year old dog. 

I'm hoping they can at least tell us what is going on without us putting another $2k into vet bills THIS month like we did last month for our OTHER girl, who has some yet un-diagnosed liver problem.

I appreciate any thoughts that others might have.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

She most likely has arthritis in her back but no way to say for sure. She needs to be seen by a vet.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

She's already at the vet. I'd expect to see some amount of pain associated with arthritis, but maybe not. Also, it came on so suddenly and got worse. Maybe that's all it is (we can hope), but since she has also stopped eating it seems like there is more to it than that.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When she collapses, how is her gum color? We have had so many with hemangiosarcoma lately and that is how it presented in my first one to have the condition when he was 11..loss of appetite and weakness. Has he ruled that out?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd guess either arthritis or possibly DM. 
Don't discount inner ear issues, however.

With weakness in the back end it may point to DM over arthritis, or even a thyroid issue.
I'd say Cushing's if she was showing a pot belly or poor hair coat; but poor hair coat can be thyroid as well.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> When she collapses, how is her gum color?


Well, hadn't looked specifically, but haven't noticed any change. When this started, her "front end" seemed to be fine. Now she's a lot lazier, but since she's also not eating, that's not too surprising. I hope to have at least some clues, if not a diagnosis from the vet later today, but after the tests we went through with our other dog, I'm not optimistic. We've opted not to put our other dog through a liver biopsy, but between two vets, they ran all of the non-invasive tests they could to determine why her liver function is not normal.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> When she collapses, how is her gum color? We have had so many with hemangiosarcoma lately and that is how it presented in my first one to have the condition when he was 11..loss of appetite and weakness. Has he ruled that out?


Nothing from the vet yet, other than checking the urine. Should hear something on the x-rays today, but probably won't have any blood work results back until at least tomorrow.

I'm not sure what to FEED her in her current state. She'll eat chewy, flavored treats, but won't touch her food. I thought about putting some beef broth or something on her food to at least try to get her eating.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I'd guess either arthritis or possibly DM.
> Don't discount inner ear issues, however.
> 
> With weakness in the back end it may point to DM over arthritis, or even a thyroid issue.
> I'd say Cushing's if she was showing a pot belly or poor hair coat; but poor hair coat can be thyroid as well.


Her coat is fine, and no pot belly - she's lost a good bit of weight (didn't hear yet on how much). Inner ear issue I'd expect that she'd lose her balance, rather than her rear end just collapse. She'll walk a distance now, and then just stop and lay down (NOT fall over), and we'll have to carry her the rest of the way.

My Mom had a Shepherd with DM, and she lost control of her rear, but otherwise was perfectly fine, and ate normally. Originally I thought that was one explanation, but with the way she's progressed, it seems like something else.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Some dogs won't eat when they are hurting. The giving out of the rear legs and the loss of appetite may well be pain and if there's a bone spur, it can come and go suddenly. The x-rays will tell what's up.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

Elaine said:


> Some dogs won't eat when they are hurting. The giving out of the rear legs and the loss of appetite may well be pain and if there's a bone spur, it can come and go suddenly. The x-rays will tell what's up.


I should stop reading about possible causes. It's kinda depressing. I found something about a bleeding tumor in the spleen causing her exact symptoms (and understand the question on gum color). 

She was 77 pounds, now she is 60. 17 pounds lost in probably a month.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes a spinal issue could be happening as well, there's spodylosis which I believe is arthritis in the spine/inflammation.

If I had one thing to do differently with our senior, Napoleon (Basset with extreme neglect before he came her), I'd have asked the vet for NEURONTIN (Gabapentin) because it is so good for nerve pain and maybe would have helped his spine and hips.

Instead she chose tramadol but he'd never touch it. I couldn't hide it in food, he loathed the taste 

Also ask about Lyme's disease and other tick borne illnesses.

Even if negative your vet may want to try a course of doxycyline to see if things improve.



> She was 77 pounds, now she is 60. 17 pounds lost in probably a month


This is significant and could even mean the "big c". 

I'm hoping you can get it sorted out.
Our vet's very good about keeping thing$ low for our rescued pets. I hope yours can offer some hope.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Our vet's very good about keeping thing$ low for our rescued pets. I hope yours can offer some hope.


Me too. Soooo many things it could be, and she's been such a healthy dog, I'd like to see her make it until a ripe old age. At least the vet should be aware that she already broke the bank last month with the other dog.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

These are also pretty classic symptoms of infection, which may or may not show up in bloodwork.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Has she been on any meds...like Rimadyl or anything...long term?
I hope they figure it out soon.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

KatsMuse said:


> Has she been on any meds...like Rimadyl or anything...long term?
> I hope they figure it out soon.


She's been on Proin long term, for incontinence. I stopped it, just in case it had any bearing on the issue, but she's been taking it for years.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

OK, here's the latest from the vet (after another difficult swipe of the credit card). A bladder stone, hip dysplasia, and calcium deposits causing the spine to "fuse" in 2 or 3 places. This is relayed info from my wife, but that's the short of it.

Couple antibiotics for now, not sure what else. Guess I'll be building a ramp or something to make it easier for her to get in and out of the house.

They also SHOULD have x-rays from when we adopted her 9 years ago, as I had them done then to get a "baseline" to compare to down the road. I'm going to ask for them to pull them up - hopefully they kept them since this is the whole reason I had them done. But, it seems odd that two (or 3) entirely different issues would show up at the exact same time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What supplements are you giving her currently? Is Adequan a possibility for her? How about laser therapy?

But what is causing the weight loss? Is it pain related?


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

scubajoe said:


> I'm not sure what to FEED her in her current state. She'll eat chewy, flavored treats, but won't touch her food. I thought about putting some beef broth or something on her food to at least try to get her eating.



Sent you a PM...I know about 'another swipe of the credit card'


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> What supplements are you giving her currently? Is Adequan a possibility for her? How about laser therapy?
> 
> But what is causing the weight loss? Is it pain related?


I assume that she just knows SOMETHING is wrong, and that's why she's not eating. If it's something that has a really strong smell, she'll gobble it up, but it's probably not good for her to live on dog treats either. 

She doesn't take anything currently, other than the Proin, which I stopped. I figure we'll try to address the bladder issue first, and see where we get with that before we worry about the hips/back, which are secondary, since that's something that has obviously been there a long time.

I'll probably call the vet myself, or take her next time, so I can get a better idea of the course of action. My wife isn't really the pet person in the house, so she doesn't really know what to ask. She's the taxi and the credit card swyper.


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## achampagne (Mar 6, 2012)

Synflex for human and pets helped my gsd the last 4 or so yrs. Sasha had bad hips and incontinence from age 2, suspect bad breeding. I really believe the synflex helped her. It was very hard for me at the end cause we all loved her so much and she had grown up with my kids, I'm almost crying just typing this. I hope you can find comfort for her along the way. With sites like this the journey should be very helpful. Didn't have this kind of thing when I got into gsd's. My thoughts and prayers are with ya for what's its worth. GL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you ever given her tripe? She might eat that. You can buy canned Trippett from petdirect.com and they ship quickly. The beef is the least expensive and alot of the CRF dogs eat it so it won't interfere with her bladder issue or kidneys.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

Tripe? That sounds scary. I'm trying to imagine that NOT causing their stomach to do loops, but maybe it's just my stomach doing loops. 

Well, the diagnosis is worse than I thought, now that I got home and got all (most) of the details.

She has Diskospondylitis, a bacterial infection (of various sorts) that causes the issue with the spine that they saw on the x-ray, along with UTI being a symptom, I guess as well. So, seems like the bladder stone is the least of our worries (well, right behind the hip dysplasia). 

She's on 2 antibiotics, and some pain meds. It's going to take at least a 6-week course of antibiotics. I'm not sure my carpets can handle that. 

According to the literature our vet gave us, this is most common in large breeds, especially GSDs and Great Danes, occurs in .2% of "hospital admissions", and is seen 2:1 more often in male than female. So much for that. 

So, looks like it'll be a while before we know if we're out of the woods. And the damage might be permanent. She also has an elevated heart rate and still won't eat or drink. I hope the antibiotics kick in soon, and she shows some signs of relief. Can't take too many more $400 vet visits either.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Can't help with any of the spine issues and calcium. But have been dealing with Shadow and bladder stones.

There are 3 different types of stones. Find out if they did a culture and what type of crystals showed up in it. You hope to see that it is struvite stones, which can be dissolved by diet change and antibiotics most of the time. The trick will be to get her to eat and drink.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

OK, here is what the vet put her on:

Tramadol (for pain)
Amoxicillin (for UTI)
Clindamycin (for diskospondylitis infection)

2 weeks to start. She wouldn't even swallow her pills this morning. Stubborn dog. And I guess I have to find some other snack, 'cause she wouldn't even touch the beef snacks she's be chowing down. I hope she holds on long enough for the meds to kick in. She was able to walk outside (only 2 steps out the front door) to do her business this morning, and then right back in and plopped down on the floor.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

She won't even swallow when I stuff the pills in the back of her throat. Finally got them down, and she threw up all over the carpet. Take 2, I got her to eat some special Iams canned food that the vet tried to get us to put the other dog (with the liver problem) on. That didn't go well for our carpets, but at this point the dog has to eat something. After she ate a little, I got some more pills down with a piece of bologna. Not sure how long she'll fall for that one. I put some probiotics on the food too, hoping it helps with the antibiotics side-affects (that I'm sure are coming) and the canned food.

Hoping tomorrow is a better day.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Both antibiotics can make a dog sick if they haven't eaten 

Our old guy hated - loathed - _despised_ - tramadol. Apparently it tastes horrible.
When I managed to get it in him, he puked it up, too. 

Can you ask about the neurontin(gabapentin)??

Gabapentin for Veterinary Use 

If your vet hasn't heard of it, refer him to the site and info above.

The last weeks of Napoleon's life I switched him to hydrocodone which did ease his pain.
But again, had I known about the gabapentin use in dogs, I'd have asked to try it


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just try the antibiotics for now, skip the tramadol and see if that helps.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

scubajoe said:


> She won't even swallow when I stuff the pills in the back of her throat. Finally got them down, and she threw up all over the carpet. Take 2, I got her to eat some special Iams canned food that the vet tried to get us to put the other dog (with the liver problem) on. That didn't go well for our carpets, but at this point the dog has to eat something. After she ate a little, I got some more pills down with a piece of bologna. Not sure how long she'll fall for that one. I put some probiotics on the food too, hoping it helps with the antibiotics side-affects (that I'm sure are coming) and the canned food.
> 
> Hoping tomorrow is a better day.


Make sure you keep the probiotics away from the antibiotics time-wise. Like 4 hours or so - if you are giving am and pm abx, do midday for your probiotic. 

How to Get Your Dog to Take His Pills - Whole Dog Journal Article for subscribers only - your vet office may have this? 

For the appetite - and I don't know what reacts to what (wondering if there might be serotonin syndrome with the combo of tramadol with this drug) but ask your vet about mirtazapine which stimulates the appetite. I would think about cooking something simple like sweet potatoes/yams and turkey. Use that as a food topper. There are places like Aldi's that sell rolls of frozen turkey for less than $2/#. 

Sometimes things like tramadol will inhibit the appetite. 

Good luck to you and her.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks for the ideas. Didn't give her the tramadol this morning, and she took the antibiotics on the bologna again. Then gave her some wet food. I left instructions to feed her several times during the day, in small quantities, and give her the probiotics again about mid-day. She slowly walks outside to do her business, and comes back in. Not sure if there's any improvement yet.

She is obviously not feeling well at all, but she doesn't really act like she's in a lot of pain, so I agree that it's best to skip the pain meds for now and concentrate on the antibiotics. This is not going to be a fun road.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Tramadol is a synthetic narcotic, so that could be why she threw up, but if it was very close to when she took the pill, she could be like Napoleon and loathe the taste of it.

There's many other pain relief options so ask your vet. 

There's also injectable antibiotics if getting her to take them is a problem.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

With me being the only one in the house who will make sure she gets what she needs when she needs it, and not being home all day, I'm half tempted to just board her with the vet, and let them give her an IV and the antibiotics for a week or two or until she shows improvement. But, we'll muddle the along until the end of the week and see what happens. I think we have a system that's working for the moment. We'll keep her comfortable, caged, and full of antibiotics, and see what happens.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

You might try making satin balls- most dogs can't resist them and they'll put on some weight. Look on the recipe thread or google it. I hope she starts feeling better soon.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

All this uncooked stuff makes me nervous. I guess it's a bigger deal for humans. I'm sure she'd LOVE it though.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

scubajoe said:


> With me being the only one in the house who will make sure she gets what she needs when she needs it, and not being home all day, I'm half tempted to just board her with the vet, and let them give her an IV and the antibiotics for a week or two or until she shows improvement. But, we'll muddle the along until the end of the week and see what happens. *I think we have a system that's working for the moment. We'll keep her comfortable, caged, and full of antibiotics, and see what happens.*


That's great...hope she gets well soon!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

scubajoe said:


> All this uncooked stuff makes me nervous. I guess it's a bigger deal for humans. I'm sure she'd LOVE it though.


I wouldn't give uncooked stuff right now to her. I think that making something like a soup/stew that is cooked, to get her eating more heartily could be helpful, but when a dog is sick (and I know people will disagree but :wild I would not feed raw foods. 

I take the 1# tubes of turkey, put them in a crock pot with some sweet potatoes or yams, maybe a little rice added toward the end and of course the water - it's not much - really simple and let it get all soggy and soft and then just put it over the kibble right before it's served (cooled). I used to bake stuff like that (meat cake) but the watery stuff makes that gravy and I guess it's all those commercials for Gravy Train I saw as a kid that makes me like that better!


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

We found some Beneful dog "stew" dinners that she likes. Several different flavors for when she gets sick of one. Problem now is that she ate a decent amount yesterday, and this morning, she threw it all up, completely intact, along with a whole piece of bologna. That can't be good. Another call to the vet today. I think she's keeping the antibiotics down though, so we might just have to do this until it kicks in. I'm not getting more optimistic about the situation.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You need to have a barium study done. Something's blocking her intestines.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I don't think it's this, but like to ask the vet why isn't it this when I talk to them:
Myasthenia Gravis


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

The vet left a message. "I got back the results from the blood work, and it's not good. Call me back." Then she had an appointment. Arggg! So we wait... for bad news.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm sorry


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

As if it wasn't bad enough. She has leukemia. I think we're done with the fight already.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm so sorry :hugs:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m so sorry.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Oh I am so sorry.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I am very sorry for you...Blessings..


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

scubajoe said:


> As if it wasn't bad enough. She has leukemia. I think we're done with the fight already.


:hugs:

We'll be here for you.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

I will be taking her in tomorrow. Now, how to tell the kids. When I was a kid, our dog got sick, and went to the vet. The problem was, he never came back, and after several days, my parents told us that he wasn't coming back. I don't know if that was a foregone conclusion when we went in or not. I almost don't want to tell the kids before the dog is gone, but I'm not sure I can do that either.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

How old are your kids? 
Grief, Bereavement, and Coping With Loss (PDQ®) - National Cancer Institute

http://www.beneficialliving.com/assets/files/ Developmental .pdf

Children and Pet Loss

The Rainbow Bridge Vet

I would go in the Preparing to Say Goodbye forum and read the thread on sedation, for you. I am so sorry.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks. Now I just have to keep myself composed long enough to open my mouth. And THEN be ready for all of the questions that will follow.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I am so sorry, I am heart sick for you. You didn't say how old your kids are but if they are old enough I suggest giving them the opportunity to say goodbye.


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

They are 16, 8, and 4. We'll have to tell them tonight, but that's an awkward situation no matter how you do it. That's life though. The little one won't understand, she'll just ask if Lucy is going to be with Grandma. It'll be harder on me than her.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Oh no, I'm so sorry. Just be honest with the kids, they'll probably accept it and handle it better than you think as long as they know the truth. And it'll help you if it's all out in the open so you don't have the added pressure of keeping something from them.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

scubajoe said:


> I will be taking her in tomorrow. Now, how to tell the kids. When I was a kid, our dog got sick, and went to the vet. The problem was, he never came back, and after several days, my parents told us that he wasn't coming back. I don't know if that was a foregone conclusion when we went in or not. I almost don't want to tell the kids before the dog is gone, but I'm not sure I can do that either.


O no...
I'm so very sorry. Please tell the kids...they need to say their goodbyes.
Kat


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks for all of the kind words and help, for an internet stranger no less. I came here just days ago, looking for answers, and here we are at the end of the road already. Telling the kids was hard, and they played the avoidance game, and eventually broke down. Even the 4-year old understands more than most people say they do.

Less than a year ago:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am so sorry. I have been there and it is hard on the kids but part of understanding life / death and growing up. They may act differently for a little while and I usually cut them a bit of a break because figuring out how to deal with greif is different for all of us. Be sure to take your photos....my daughter treasures the ones we have of Linus (the dog who was older than she was and helped raise her).....and get them to make a little paw print in clay to save...the vet can do that afterwards.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Thanks for all of the kind words and help, for an internet stranger no less.


We're in this together - you're a GSD owner too :hugs:


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

Well, never had to do that before, but I stayed with her to the end. It was very fast. She wasn't functioning very well by the time I had to carry her into the vet. It was tough though. Thanks for everyone's kind words.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

She trusted you with her life and you gave her a wonderful one. Sadly, we often have to end it for them- the ultimate show of love


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

So sorry for your loss

Hugs to the whole family...Lucy is at peace now.:hugs:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am so sorry for your loss - there is a section for posting remembrances if you would like to post there - or I can move this thread there, or not. Just tell us.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am also so very very sorry


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## scubajoe (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I've made a "tribute thread" to Lucy in the other forum. My wife and I talked about our other Shepherd, Trinity, who was actually sick BEFORE Lucy, but is doing well right now. I will probably be reading, and asking, a lot here to make sure we do the best we can for her liver health, so that she's with us as long as possible. Long story short, we stopped short of the vet opening her up to do a liver biopsy, and are just assuming, based on all of the tests and ultrasound, that she's having the beginnings of liver failure. But, more on that in another thread when I have some questions for all of the great people here.


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