# New to forum but not to German Shepherds



## sabel (Nov 29, 2013)

I'm new to the forum but have had German Shepherds since the early 1970's.
The amount of information here is amazing. Wish I'd found it sooner.
Need advice.
We lost our ten year old GSD to cancer about a month ago and are considering another puppy. All of our past dogs have been adopted from private families that just happened to have "German Shepherd puppies for sale" in the paper.
This is the first time I've used the Web to shop or even considered a breeder, mainly out of necessity this time since we live in Wyoming.
My question; What advantage or disadvantage do you see in buying from a private family vs a breeder? We've had good luck in the past with family breed ing and just want a new family member.
Thanks in advance.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Unfortunately, our breed has a lot of health and temperament issues. PLUS there are hundreds (thousands?) of purebred GSD's in rescues and kill shelters as I'm typing from breeders who are just breeding and not realizing that the puppies may end up paying the ultimate price by not ending up in the best suited homes.

What is generally supported on this site are what we consider 'responsible' breeders. Not from pet stores and puppy mills or unknowledgeable backyard breeders BYB, but those who are really trying to improve the GSD breed to keep it what it is meant to be for health and temperament. Many of these breeders do only have one or 2 litters at their home so it's not about that. It's about their goals and responsibility for the breed and their puppies/dogs forever.

Two great sites to go thru first are ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html

as well as ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...nk-how-tell-good-breeder-website-bad-one.html

Not sure if you've considered rescues or older dogs. Because there are wonderful dogs to be found there as well.

Good luck and get to reading!!!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> We've had good luck in the pas


Exactly. And, other people weren't so lucky. Personal trauma here, there, and everywhere. IMHO, anything is possible to correct in your dog - agressiveness, bad temper, anything you name, except one thing - that is health. Spend your money on a good *healthy* puppy. First of all, decide how much you are going to spend. Good puppy costs between $4000 - 5000, both parents must be qualified at the show (general health checks) and Schutzhund competition ( intellectual abilities). Many people here praise
https://kraftwerkk9.com/dogs-for-sale/puppies/


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Good puppy costs between $4000 - 5000


I don't know where David is getting his numbers from, and I hope that this is not discouraging people from going the breeder route. 

Good puppies from good breeders are more withing the 1000-2500 dollar range. Usually working lines are around 1200 - 2000, while show lines are around1500 - 2500, or up.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Or as others have suggested go the rescue route! You can find great German Shepherds in rescue from $100-300. Rescue dogs come with shots, microchips and if they are old enough are spayed or neutered. They come in all sizes, ages and colors and many have some basic training.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

David Taggart said:


> Good puppy costs between $4000 - 5000


Way overpriced for an 8 week old puppy. 



David Taggart said:


> Many people here praise
> https://kraftwerkk9.com/dogs-for-sale/puppies/


They do?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no they don't

and David, please if you have no direct information/contact with a dog from xxx breeder, please don't suggest them especially to a new person.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Taggart said:


> Exactly. And, other people weren't so lucky. Personal trauma here, there, and everywhere. IMHO, *anything is possible to correct in your dog - agressiveness, bad temper,* anything you name, except one thing - that is health.


IME, wrong. There are genetics in play for nerves and aggression. 




David Taggart said:


> Spend your money on a good *healthy* puppy. First of all, decide how much you are going to spend. Good puppy costs between $4000 - 5000, both parents must be qualified at the show (general health checks) and Schutzhund competition ( intellectual abilities).


Maybe they cost that much in the UK? But most certainly not here. Working line prices run from $1000-$2500 depending on the caliber of the parent. Show line puppies are about $3000-$4000.




David Taggart said:


> Many people here praise
> https://kraftwerkk9.com/dogs-for-sale/puppies/


And MANY people do NOT have praise for this particular breeder. 
David - this is the 2nd time you've recommended this breeder. What are your grounds for doing so? do you have personal experience with them? Have you bought a puppy from them? Or are you recommending based on their website?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - You are in Wyoming? I'm sure people can give you recommendations for breeders based on what you are looking for in a dog and location. You can have a dog shipped in as well from breeders.

I see prices for BYB puppies that are the same as working line puppies. The advantage is going to be in the health and temperament of the dogs. Nothing is a guarantee with a living creature but you can stack the deck in your favor.

Look for health and stable temperament. Meet the parents if you can. If you see temperament traits in them that you don't like, don't buy the puppy! I have a 7 yr old genetic hot mess with a mother that couldn't be approached. If I had only known then what I know now!!! 

Ask about hip and elbow xrays. do they do any training or work their dogs? It may not be in Schutzhund. While that is the gold standard for working line dogs, there are breeders out there that have actual working dogs in SAR, K9, guide dogs and may not participate in the sport itself. Some may be involved in AKC events as well.

Previous progeny? I was able to see previous 2 litters from the parents I just bought from. It was incredible to see exactly what I was going to get. Nothing like seeing the proof in person! Many breeders do not repeat litters more than once so you may have to put pieces together on both sides.

Are there any Schutzhund clubs or AKC clubs in your area? You can visit and watch the dogs to see what you like and then talk to those breeders.

How far are you willing to travel? While you don't have to, it's always beneficial to meet them in person.

Are you open to rescue? Not sure what might be available in your area but reaching out to rescues that foster in homes is always a good way to go. You may not get a puppy but you can get a very nice companion!


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## sabel (Nov 29, 2013)

Thanks for all of the good advice.
We live in Wyoming but have a breeder just down the road from us (Celhaus ). I have been in contact with them but the problem is she's not going to have another litter ready until next September. Don't know if I can wait that long. Winter in Wyoming is a good time to work with a puppy I think. On the other hand the AKC website turned me on to a home site in Billings, Mt ( 140 miles away ) that will have puppies available soon. I plan on visiting them on Monday. Do puppies listed on the AKC website make any difference?
I have considered a rescue but distance is a big factor and not knowing what psychological issues they'll have.
Ignorance has been bliss on my past dogs. Now that I've been doing so much research, on the next one I may just get a cat.
Just kidding.
Thanks again for you help.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sabel, it's 'buyer beware' for ANY breeder we find posted anywhere we find it. Why the burden is on us before we look up websites or go to visit breeders. Knowing what an OFA is and why it's vital so a 'breeder' doesn't talk us out of having them on the parent dogs. Know what a Sch stands for in a pedigree. Know to ask about past litters/puppies and talk to past owners. 

What is the puppy warranty?

We need to calm down our initial excitement of getting a puppy and instead really read up on it prior to calling around. All you need to do is wander thru our health section, or the aggression section, or the Urgent/Non urgent sections of this board to see what we are accidentally buying or poor breeders are doing to the breed.

Have you had a chance to read thru --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html and http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...nk-how-tell-good-breeder-website-bad-one.html .

Other great refresher info on Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner - German Shepherd Dog Forums

BTW, though I may have more free time in the winter (kind of) the lack of daylight and cold actually make raising a puppy much harder in the winter. Standing out in the cold and wind begging my puppy to PEE already ( and my young pups won't even go outside unless I do) is not something I enjoy. Added to difficulty in getting enough good walks and exercise in so the puppy in the house is calmer and better behaved.

So you may actually be better to take the winter to really find the best breeder/puppy and then early spring be ready to go!


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

And now you have seen the downside of using the web to look for a pup....

I was exactly where you are a couple months ago. We lost our Shepherd to cancer at 9 and it was devastating. Our last shepherd came from a back yard breeder and they were great. However, looking back on it, I think they were pretty new to breeding and they had the right intentions. Our dog was great but had a couple issues. Daddy was unapproachable and that should have been the first red flag. 

Once we decided to start looking for another, we tried for a rescue, realising that a lot of the dogs will have behavioral issues. Our problem with rescue was more about the organizations in our area and less about the dogs. Needless to say, it didn't' work out. 

I started searching for breeders, starting in my area and then branching out further. I derived a list of breeders. I took that list and started trying to vet them which led me here. There wasn't much on the breeder we chose to be honest. However, I did find info on a few NOT to use which was very helpful. 

I started calling these breeders one by one whether they currently had pups or not. I immediately ruled a couple out right off the bat. I made a couple of appointments to visit their facilities. We were stood up, lied to, disrespected, you name it. I have been around the block a few times myself and was generally appalled at how some of these rescues and breeders treated their prospective clients. I was starting to get discouraged. 

Then I found our current breeder. She had two pups listed as available. She told me the price and I had sticker shock. I told her that we would pass as I couldn't afford that before the impending holidays, and a pup through the holidays would be tough, but doable. One day, a couple months later, out of the blue I get an email or phone call, can't remember, she said one of her dams was pregnant and that would put the pups available in our time frame. 

She said all the right things, had all the right answers and was just as pleasant. Now I'm scared.... Too good to be true. We make the long trek to visit her, meet the parents and see her facility. 

Backstory: I have been around Shepherds literally my entire life. I grew up with my uncles K-9, he and my father we officers on the same force. My experiences with K9's is that they can be a touch unstable. (whether that is true or not, thats what I remember) 

Back to our experience: I know the sire is IPO3 so he does bite work, obedience etc. We pull up in the drive and I see the breeder in the distance with the sire.(Dang, he is a BIG Boy) I'm not quite sure what to expect. Will he be a touch neurotic like my experiences with previous K9 dogs? I'm not nervous but unsure how this dog will treat us. I have seen videos of him competing/training...I drive up slowly and get out of the truck. That dog took to us like we were his long lost friends, never barked, and attached himself to my leg and pretty much stayed there through the entire visit. The Dam was just as relaxed around us.

We must have stayed there two hours visiting all the dogs, she showed us around, we played with the parents etc. We had lost complete track of time. I finally realised how long we had been there. "Honey, we have got to leave this poor woman alone, we have been here a couple hours". She invited us to stay as long as we liked. My wife and I looked at each other and knew. We put a deposit down right then and there. On an unborn pup...She later told us that she had never seen her dogs take to strangers so quickly, they are always well behaved but not the immediate bond like with us. She left us a couple of times to get paperwork etc. She wasn't nervous about leaving us with free access to the dogs or kennel. She was confident in her dogs temperament. 

We don't have our pup yet. We pick him/her up around Jan 3rd. We have been able to follow the entire process, she has posted pictures and short video's. It has been the most wonderful dog experience we have had in recent memory. Especially with the emotional rollercoaster we have been through from loosing our beloved friend to the treatment from some of the breeders and rescues. We go meet the pups for the first time next weekend. 

Now, my point to all of this, if you have made it this far through my short story, is to keep looking. If you have been around the breed as long as you have, you will know which one is right. While I agree with rescuing a pup in need, I also agree to choose a breeder that has the breed in mind, not just trying to make a living. If you pay attention to the signs, that will be obvious. Try and meet the parents, how is their temperament? Can the breeder show you hip certifications? How far back do they trace the lineage? Why did they choose to breed these particular two dogs? What was her end goal? Even how many litters she has a year. Ask for references, I found my own prior to our visit. I never had to ask these questions, she told us everything we needed to know without asking. We told her what we were looking for specifically in the dog. She felt confident that she could find a pup that met our requirements. If not, she would refund us our deposit or help us locate another dog through either another litter or through breeders she knows. We decided to let her choose the dog as I find that the most difficult aspect of buying a pup. Let's face it, she has much more experience in that department that we do. 

I will say you get what you pay for and this is the most expensive dog was have ever purchased. However, I feel quite confident that we will get a well balanced, healthy dog. I was more concerned with temperament and health than most anything else. And no, it's not a $4k dog, good lord. A $4k dog better make me breakfast in the morning.  

I hope this helped.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you can get a show line starting at $1,500 and up. if you look
around you may find a show line at $1,200.00.



Jax08 said:


> IME, wrong. There are genetics in play for nerves and aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're price range is way off and the dogs dont have to compete
in Schutzhund to show.



David Taggart said:


> Exactly. And, other people weren't so lucky. Personal trauma here, there, and everywhere. IMHO, anything is possible to correct in your dog - agressiveness, bad temper, anything you name, except one thing - that is health. Spend your money on a good *healthy* puppy. First of all, decide how much you are going to spend.
> 
> >>>>> Good puppy costs between $4000 - 5000, both parents must be qualified at the show (general health checks) and Schutzhund competition ( intellectual abilities).<<<<<
> 
> ...


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

> BTW, though I may have more free time in the winter (kind of) the lack of daylight and cold actually make raising a puppy much harder in the winter. Standing out in the cold and wind begging my puppy to PEE already ( and my young pups won't even go outside unless I do) is not something I enjoy. Added to difficulty in getting enough good walks and exercise in so the puppy in the house is calmer and better behaved.
> 
> So you may actually be better to take the winter to really find the best breeder/puppy and then early spring be ready to go!


Listen to MaggieRoseLee. There is so much truth in that statement... I am NOT looking forward to a puppy in January and my winters are nothing like yours. 

I was seeing prices in my area in the $1000-$1500 range mostly wherever I looked. Fully trained in obedience and protection was $4k-$6k range. That's just what I saw when I was looking. Milage may vary.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> you can get a show line starting at $1,500 and up. if you look
> around you may find a show line at $1,200.00.


Where? I've never seen a showline for that price. I think Huerta Hof sells showlines for about the same price as working line. And I would definitely take a second look at their dogs!  But all others I've seen are about $3500.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sp00ks said:


> Listen to MaggieRoseLee. There is so much truth in that statement... I am NOT looking forward to a puppy in January and my winters are nothing like yours.


I have one right now and while housebreaking in the winter really stinks, it is also the time of the year that I have the most time available to work with the puppy. Pros and cons on both sides of that.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

I have had winter puppies. It can be done, but it's not always easy. But if you want to teach the dog to track it is real nice to get him started before he starts teething (and snow is not conducive to the right kind of learning).


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I've done a puppy in the winter before and I'll never do it again. Besides going outside every 20 minutes in the freezing cold or snow, I find it more difficult to socialize too. Less people are outside doing things when it's 20 degrees out, so it really limits the amount of socialization you can do. Doesn't make it impossible, but it does limit things.


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## MTGSD (Oct 9, 2013)

There are some good working line breeders in mt that advertise their dogs titles openly. Most are near the sch club in the Bozeman area. Omega, alfa, and sapphire to a degree come up pretty easily. Living in billings myself I am unfamiliar with a breeder here, that doesn't mean as much since I don't know everyone. There used to be a breeder in Thermopolis wy too, haven't seen any thing in years on them though. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I have one right now and while housebreaking in the winter really stinks, it is also the time of the year that I have the most time available to work with the puppy. Pros and cons on both sides of that.


Totally agree with this. We live in the high desert and we have either cold and snow or with the summer wildfires hot and smokey. It is easier for me to do a puppy in the winter when I have more time. Putting on a few extra layers is no big deal.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

WL puppies are generally $1000-$2000, WGSL more like $1800-$2500, not sure about ASL.

I've *only* ever had puppies in the winter and don't mind it (and I say that as someone who lives in west MI where it's freezing/snowing Nov - April and I hate winter/snow). I have more time in the winter and always have time off around Christmas. My job is also slower and less demanding in the winter. I have more $$$ because my competition dog(s) aren't traveling as much during the winter. Housebreaking has never been an issue but I have a small, fenced yard so I don't generally go outside with my dogs every time I let them out. My adults tend to housetrain my puppies, lol. They follow the adults out and do their business, I've never had issues with a puppy refusing to pee and me having to stand out there until they do.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

sabel said:


> Thanks for all of the good advice.
> We live in Wyoming but have a breeder just down the road from us (Celhaus ). I have been in contact with them but the problem is she's not going to have another litter ready until next September. Don't know if I can wait that long. Winter in Wyoming is a good time to work with a puppy I think. On the other hand the AKC website turned me on to a home site in Billings, Mt ( 140 miles away ) that will have puppies available soon. I plan on visiting them on Monday. Do puppies listed on the AKC website make any difference?
> I have considered a rescue but distance is a big factor and not knowing what psychological issues they'll have.
> Ignorance has been bliss on my past dogs. Now that I've been doing so much research, on the next one I may just get a cat.
> ...


Go the route that works best for you. In regards to rescues, I'm going to guess (and its only a guess) that most are good dogs that unfortunately started out in the wrong hands. Good luck on your search!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Being listed on the AKC site does not make them a good breeder. Read the links MLR posted above and evaluate them carefully.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

$1500-2000 seems pretty average for American show lines


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

why are show line pups so much more expensive than working line? a nicely pigmented black and red does look really nice but that justifies such a big increase in price?

btw i've also raised a pup during winter. i just put the dog on a long line and let it go out to potty while i stand inside behind the door and watch. when he was done i just reeled him back inside. the real problem with winter pups is socialization/exposure. 8-20 weeks is an important time in a pups life and if its stuck inside a lot then thats a problem.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> a nicely pigmented black and red does look really nice but that justifies such a big increase in price?


Pretty much. People want pretty, and they'll pay for it.


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