# What eliminates a dog from breeding?



## cliffson1

On another thread someone felt that things like EPI, allergies, back issues, etc, were things that some breeders discard when breeding if they can get one or two good dogs.
My question: When a breeder has a pup from their breeding or a dog they know has produced one of these things, should they;
1) eliminate the dog from breeding
2) if use the dog again use a complete outcross 
3) repeat the breeding to see if it's a fluke
I'm curious as to perspectives


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## cloudpump

It depends. First time breeding? If so, and it's a great breed worthy dog, I'd be tempted to try again after further research. Is it a high ratio of puppies afflicted? If its 5 afflicted to 1 healthy, I'd be looking at my combination of dam and sire, their siblings and puppies that we're thrown by them. 
I'm far from a breeder, but I feel there is a lot to look at if there​ is an issue cropping up. 
There is so much to breeding. I've seen where someone said that a bitch that kills puppies should never be bred
Yet aren't some of the harder bitches out there been known to kill their puppies?


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## LuvShepherds

I have a teen dog who had terrible pano, but is otherwise sound and has a good temperament for my needs. He is a bit friendly for a WL dog but I like that. The breeder knows she has some pano in her lines, but if she stopped breeding any dog that might get it, she would lose all the good qualities her dogs have. He comes from excellent lines. His pedigree has many known good breeders.

I think allergies can come from other causes besides genetics. I would not buy a dog with EPI in the lines or with structural problems if I knew about them. 

Allergies are annoying and destructive but can be managed.


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## cliffson1

Thx, Cloudpump....very insightful answer,imo.
I think pano is something most dogs grow out of and rarely occurs after 2 years. As for good temperament for my needs, how does that fit with the standard? Just curious:smile2:
C'mon folks, I see so many opinions given when somebody comes on and says they want to breed their dogs, I'm curious as to the breeding knowledge that is basis for all of the opinions given.


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## elisabeth_00117

As a buyer and not a breeder, I would want to see the breeder do a bit of research if there was a issue brought forth from one of their puppies. Reach out to other owners who own dogs from both sure and dam (pairings and separately used).

If there was a pattern of illness or bad temperament, then that pair or individual dog should be eliminated from breeding.


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## elisabeth_00117

I should also add... This research should be in addition to what was already considered prior to breeding about both sire and dam and history of both sides for each dog.


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## elisabeth_00117

cliffson1 said:


> Thx, Cloudpump....very insightful answer,imo.
> I think pano is something most dogs grow out of and rarely occurs after 2 years. As for good temperament for my needs, how does that fit with the standard? Just curious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon folks, I see so many opinions given when somebody comes on and says they want to breed their dogs, I'm curious as to the breeding knowledge that is basis for all of the opinions given.


I also think pano isn't something to really use as a deterrent for breeding but should be considered/made note of in the overall picture for future.


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## Sunsilver

Those who would breed a dog with allergies don't understand just how devastating allergies can be!

I have an e-friend who owns a beagle with severe allergies. Over the years she's had him, it has cost here THOUSANDS of dollars to keep him healthy. She has nearly had him die several times due to the problems.

The breeder confesses his dad had problems too, and has produced other severely allergic pups. 

I have a GSD female that seems to be sensitive to chicken, and has gunky ears. Her father had chronic ear problems too. In a case of something so mild, I would still breed. What knocked her out of the breeding pool was one mildly dysplastic hip!

I was surprised at the number of people who told me "Oh, I STILL would have bred her!" (because she has so many V and VA rated dogs in her pedigree.) :rolleyes2:

What makes and owner say 'no' is different for everyone. The breeder who bred my female's mom is a very honest, reputable person. She had an ASL dog that did very well at Westminister (BOB, I think?) but after his big win, he bloated and nearly died. I mentioned him on another messageboard, and a number of people criticized her for breeding a dog that might carry bloat! 

I have yet to hear of any studies that suggest bloat is inherited, other than large dogs with deep chests are the most likely to bloat. In that case, we should remove ALL large, deep-chested dogs (Danes, GSDs, greyhounds, etc.) from the breeding pool!


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## wolfstraum

I imported a young bitch years ago, popular sire.....finished her to Sch3, KKL ...nice nice working female, awesome long bite, beautiful attentive obedience....

Tried to breed once with frozen at Dr. Hutchinsons, did not take....the Sch 3 KKL male I owned was not producing good enough swimmers on examination, and then I bred her to a friends Sch 3 KKL Yoshey son....outside tie....delivered 3 live pups, 1 dead.... Ended up with 2 dwarfs. About $7000-8000 down the tubes. Female spayed and given away to an awesome pet home where she did agility and went to work at a court (owner was a local magistrate) every day until she passed...

What will wash out a dog for breeding for me ??? 1st and foremost - bad nerves. I watched a hectic, high drive female (imported, untitled) run off the field to kennel when corrected for being dirty more than once (electric could not get her back, water spit in her face, allowed her self to be dragged back)....would have spayed her and placed her. Has had a couple of litters since. IPO2 with 70s in protection. I also would not breed to a dog who had surgery for bloat even once, or who had to have back surgery.

I also am not going to use a dog - male or female with heavy backmassing on popular sires "known" or reputed to produce orthopedic issues or any temperament or health issue. Some linebreeding or backmassing is unavoidable - the gene pool is only so big. But to intentionally do a close one, I need to know the dogs personally or have good information from people I trust.

Statistically, there are going to be pups with HD....If minimal and not severe, I am not going to throw a female out of the gene pool. I am going to health test and use health testing in the process of matching up dogs. I am going to watch trends in what bloodlines produce issues....I stay away from some very popular widely used lines due to high incidences of issues. And so the sires I normally use/choose are not the "flavor of the month" but I am happy with the production and have produced some very very nice working pups owned by people who are not specifically looking for pups by a popular sire.

If I know a sire has produced EPI or another serious issue - I want to study the pedigree of the affected dog.....is there heavy backmassing on any certain dog??? I also look at other pedigrees where I know the same issue was produced for similarities. What does the pedigree combination give me in that regard with my female??? If it is going to be similar, I would not do the breeding, if it is vastly different, then I would still consider the dog. 

Washing out a dog from breeding is something most people will not do......one breeder I know in the SE would rather cull puppies than wash out a female who produces them. Me - I would have a horrible time culling a puppy in the same manner - so I would not breed a female who was nervy and would wash her out into a spay and pet home.


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## GypsyGhost

wolfstraum said:


> I imported a young bitch years ago, popular sire.....finished her to Sch3, KKL ...nice nice working female, awesome long bite, beautiful attentive obedience....
> 
> Tried to breed once with frozen at Dr. Hutchinsons, did not take....the Sch 3 KKL male I owned was not producing good enough swimmers on examination, and then I bred her to a friends Sch 3 KKL Yoshey son....outside tie....delivered 3 live pups, 1 dead.... Ended up with 2 dwarfs. About $7000-8000 down the tubes. Female spayed and given away to an awesome pet home where she did agility and went to work at a court (owner was a local magistrate) every day until she passed...
> 
> What will wash out a dog for breeding for me ??? 1st and foremost - bad nerves. I watched a hectic, high drive female (imported, untitled) run off the field to kennel when corrected for being dirty more than once (electric could not get her back, water spit in her face, allowed her self to be dragged back)....would have spayed her and placed her. Has had a couple of litters since. IPO2 with 70s in protection. I also would not breed to a dog who had surgery for bloat even once, or *who had to have back surgery*.
> 
> I also am not going to use a dog - male or female with heavy backmassing on popular sires "known" or reputed to produce orthopedic issues or any temperament or health issue. Some linebreeding or backmassing is unavoidable - the gene pool is only so big. But to intentionally do a close one, I need to know the dogs personally or have good information from people I trust.
> 
> Statistically, there are going to be pups with HD....If minimal and not severe, I am not going to throw a female out of the gene pool. I am going to health test and use health testing in the process of matching up dogs. I am going to watch trends in what bloodlines produce issues....I stay away from some very popular widely used lines due to high incidences of issues. And so the sires I normally use/choose are not the "flavor of the month" but I am happy with the production and have produced some very very nice working pups owned by people who are not specifically looking for pups by a popular sire.
> 
> If I know a sire has produced EPI or another serious issue - I want to study the pedigree of the affected dog.....is there heavy backmassing on any certain dog??? I also look at other pedigrees where I know the same issue was produced for similarities. What does the pedigree combination give me in that regard with my female??? If it is going to be similar, I would not do the breeding, if it is vastly different, then I would still consider the dog.
> 
> Washing out a dog from breeding is something most people will not do......one breeder I know in the SE would rather cull puppies than wash out a female who produces them. Me - I would have a horrible time culling a puppy in the same manner - so *I would not breed a female who was nervy and would wash her out into a spay and pet home*.


I have a few questions about what I bolded... you say you would not breed to a dog who had to have back surgery. If that dog needed surgery due to injury, does that change things for you at all? Why or why not? I'm currently trying to wrap my head around the whole back injury thing, so your input will be much appreciated.

And to the second bolded statement... how nervy is this hypothetical bitch you are placing in a pet home? Because that doesn't seem like a great thing to do, IMO. Is this just common practice? To pass the nervy dogs off to pet people? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, it's great that you wouldn't breed her, because the chance of nervy puppies would be high. And you're right, a lot of breeders wouldn't do that.


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## wolfstraum

the nervy bitch? depends on the degree of nervy - the one I saw that was titled minimally and bred??? she could not take pressure at all....she would have been fine in an AKC obedience or agility home - but she was not breedworthy IMO - sure she will produce some pups that are OK and even will title and then be bred - but the nerviness continues to be passed on through the one that carries it but does not express it....too many people think this is acceptable...there are plenty of females around without this problem to waste your time and other peoples money producing this generation after generation IMO...if the bitch was as nervy as some in rescue that get discussed - sometimes it is kinder to let them go than make them live a life in terror and fear....but ones that bad are not as common in WL breedings.....saw one in ASL from MAJOR well known kennel 15 years ago....they bred her a few times anyway because of movement - very very very sad for that female (trembled, tried to hide or cowered down when approached)....would barely let herself be touched except by owner....but wow the movement - so breed her (disgusted sarcasm smiley if I had one)...I saw one female quite a bit, an acquaintance owned the littermate or full sibling who did not express bad nerves....the sound sister produced a few very nervy pups however, and he had no problem culling....most Americans will not cull like that breeder.

the back surgery???? look at it this way - if 100 dogs will undergo the same pressures physically - and only 10 end up needing surgery because of it and you look at their pedigrees and 9 of those 10 are similar in pedigree??? Those are the ones so under discussion and the work excuse is just that....I was aware of this and heard the same excuse over and over many years ago in Europe while traveling.....a well known breeder judge discussed it at dinner a few weeks ago....same dogs, same lines......problem is breeders priorities - to get that rockstar puppy they find it an acceptable risk....THAT is the bottom line....what a breeder considers acceptable risk to reward ratio.

Lee


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## Sunsilver

THAT is the bottom line....what a breeder considers acceptable risk to reward ratio.

Well said, Wolfstraum! And all too often, as in your example, the breeder values ribbons over producing sound dogs.

So, you feel that certain lines are more likely to bloat? Is this from personal experience? I know that anxious dogs are more likely to bloat, but other than the deep chest/large body thing, that's the only inheritable characteristic I can think of which would predispose a dog to bloat.

Risk Factors for Canine Bloat - TUFTSBG2003 - VIN


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## wolfstraum

Sunsilver said:


> THAT is the bottom line....what a breeder considers acceptable risk to reward ratio.
> 
> Well said, Wolfstraum! And all too often, as in your example, the breeder values ribbons over producing sound dogs.
> 
> So, you feel that certain lines are more likely to bloat? Is this from personal experience? I know that anxious dogs are more likely to bloat, but other than the deep chest/large body thing, that's the only inheritable characteristic I can think of which would predispose a dog to bloat.
> 
> Risk Factors for Canine Bloat - TUFTSBG2003 - VIN




Bloat is one that is more ambiguous IMO.....certainly tied to conformation type - and conformation type tied to genetics....sort of like colic in horses....many are more management related than genetics...but still management ties into personality ties into genetics.

Would I breed to a dog who bloated?? Maybe - not sure......would not breed to a dog or buy a puppy from a dog who bloated 3 or 4 times! Management????? Genetics????? Without a clear and total background history - why take a chance? There are so many males of very very similar backgrounds and common pedigrees, would probably move on....

I have been very very lucky - I started off in the breed with dogs by chance who ended up genetically very healthy and free of most common lines, even though I have had dogs with the more common lines....but over all lucky with them as well....in part due to a German koermeister who gave me some very very sound advice in the beginning at my first Koer and a few times afterwards. Unpopular advice LOL LOL but has proved to be insightful as I learned more and more through the years.


Lee


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## Whiteshepherds

For breeders: Would you tell your prospective puppy buyers if the sire or dam had EPI, allergies etc. ?


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## GypsyGhost

wolfstraum said:


> the nervy bitch? depends on the degree of nervy - the one I saw that was titled minimally and bred??? she could not take pressure at all....she would have been fine in an AKC obedience or agility home - but she was not breedworthy IMO - sure she will produce some pups that are OK and even will title and then be bred - but the nerviness continues to be passed on through the one that carries it but does not express it....too many people think this is acceptable...there are plenty of females around without this problem to waste your time and other peoples money producing this generation after generation IMO...if the bitch was as nervy as some in rescue that get discussed - sometimes it is kinder to let them go than make them live a life in terror and fear....but ones that bad are not as common in WL breedings.....saw one in ASL from MAJOR well known kennel 15 years ago....they bred her a few times anyway because of movement - very very very sad for that female (trembled, tried to hide or cowered down when approached)....would barely let herself be touched except by owner....but wow the movement - so breed her (disgusted sarcasm smiley if I had one)...I saw one female quite a bit, an acquaintance owned the littermate or full sibling who did not express bad nerves....the sound sister produced a few very nervy pups however, and he had no problem culling....most Americans will not cull like that breeder.
> 
> the back surgery???? look at it this way - if 100 dogs will undergo the same pressures physically - and only 10 end up needing surgery because of it and you look at their pedigrees and 9 of those 10 are similar in pedigree??? Those are the ones so under discussion and the work excuse is just that....I was aware of this and heard the same excuse over and over many years ago in Europe while traveling.....a well known breeder judge discussed it at dinner a few weeks ago....same dogs, same lines......problem is breeders priorities - to get that rockstar puppy they find it an acceptable risk....THAT is the bottom line....what a breeder considers acceptable risk to reward ratio.
> 
> Lee


Thank you for expanding on those thoughts for me!


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## Sunsilver

Whiteshepherds said:


> For breeders: Would you tell your prospective puppy buyers if the sire or dam had EPI, allergies etc. ?


:surprise:<removed> Do you realize how SERIOUS EPI is?? Who in their RIGHT MIND would breed a dog with that disease??


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## onyx'girl

Sunsilver said:


> :surprise:<removed> Do you realize how SERIOUS EPI is?? Who in their RIGHT MIND would breed a dog with that disease??


I bet there are many breeding that have no clue what EPI even is...they think the dog has sensitivity to food or anxiety brings runny poop. Regardless they should not be breeding a dog that has sensitive gut or anxiety. BUT we all know BYB's make excuses all the time.

There are so many reasons for washing a dog from a breeding program, yet, I see breeders allowing dogs with poor digestion, sensitivity to foods or allergies from foods making excuses and often don't even bring it up with stud owners either. 
I want a dog with a rock solid gut, the gut is the main focus of the overall health, in dogs and all other species.


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## carmspack

good question

"n 2006, the Sieger was a dog that had failed the courage test at a prior BSZS, and at least half of his adult offspring did very unconvincing jobs in their own bitework. The vice-sieger was this dog's father, who has not proven to be much better in either his own work or in producing brave dogs. : 

the Sieger show - "the" big one that influences breedings 

from Grunfeld German Shepherds


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## selzer

I wouldn't breed an affected dog. A dog with EPI or something else that is generally inherited, if the dog was diagnosed at the time of breeding. 

But if a sire/dam combination produced the condition, what does that do to your breeding choices. 

No critter is perfect. We make decisions every day. If you had a bitch that produced 2-3 serious defects in one litter, and she was bred to a dog that was a good producer, with little or no issues like that, of course, spay the bitch and put her in a pet home. But breeding isn't always so cut and dried. Over the course of years, you are going to produce some issues. What is too much, what is too many to make you change your breeding choices. 

If you had a dog that produced 28 puppies in four litters, using 2 bitches, and 1 of them had a heart problem. Do you stop breeding him, and not breed to any of the pups you kept out of him to go forward? How can you be sure that another pup you pick up will not produce something even worse? 

I think you listen to your puppy buyers and thank them for information they give you on your puppies. And you build a case with each dog. If you know that out of 44 puppies, the dog produced one with EPI, and 2 with heart issues, and one with HD, you then decide whether or not you will breed to his unaffected puppies. And choices in breeding where you are going to line breed -- this information is extremely important, because then you are putting possible carriers on both side of the equation, increasing the possibilities of puppies being affected.

All of that requires breeding for the future, holding back puppies, having 3-4 generations of a line at any time. Sometime you are going to make a choice and see how it plays out.


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## carmspack

Sunsilver said:


> :surprise:<removed> Do you realize how SERIOUS EPI is?? Who in their RIGHT MIND would breed a dog with that disease??


I know of one or two .


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## wolfstraum

I do too.....there were some members maybe 10-12 years ago......one girl had a dog wiht EPI, dam had EPI and breeder kept breeding her even though he was told....he just did not care....dam was not treated and died young....those lines still floating around in that area....

Lee


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## carmspack

carmspack said:


> I know of one or two .


one owner is a forum member . That dog has long left this mortal coil .
5 years later I get an owner with a health concern contact me . Predictably I
as where is the dog from . 
Yup , you guessed it . Same place , even the same sire as the forum member's dog .
That means that the dog , a male, has been bred for 10 years . 
(forum members dog was 6 years at time of death and that was 4 years ago - and
the other dog is just past the 1 year mark --) vet diagnosed .
does that breeder know --- absolutely --- 
does it stop her --- absolutely not - $3,500 US for a pup - 

allergies --- have seen far too many pups with allergies because of over and inappropriate use of antibiotics -- challenges dogs never had to submit to before--- multiple vaccines and bunched up vaccine schedules 
not anti-vaccine -- just need to rethink the what and how and whens .

now there are questions about giving more than one vaccine at one time -- professional immunologist questioning whether the body is able to develop immunity properly to more than one challenge at a time.

if the dog gets the tools for his body to operate as it should again -- microbiome , then that is different .

dogs should have robust health -- but you need the basics to enable this


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## Magwart

Another condition I'd like to add to the discussion -- Mega-Esophagus.

I'm very sure there's a breeder in my area throwing mega-E pups -- we seem to have a slow trickle of calls that come into the rescue when the condition presents, and the adolescent either gets dumped at a shelter or a local vet clinic by the buyer because the breeder wouldn't take it back. Not all mega-E is genetic, but a lot of it is.


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## Femfa

I have zero to contribute, but this is another awesome thread. Lots to think about and can help you reflect on what kind of research you should do before you get a dog and from who. I spent a few hours reading the other "Iceberg Breeders" thread too.


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Is there a button somewhere to auto-subscribe to every thread started by Cliff? There really should be, as they all turn out to be incredibly interesting, and educational discussions.

Nothing to add, other than to say thanks to all for an informative read!


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunsilver said:


> <removed> Do you realize how SERIOUS EPI is?? Who in their RIGHT MIND would breed a dog with that disease??


Okay I'll rephrase...dogs with known cases of EPI in the bloodline....As an example, do breeders feel obligated to tell puppy buyers that the grand sire produced dogs with EPI, but only a few? If that kind of information is divulged does it scare the prospective puppy buyers away? (I'm talking pet buyer as opposed to the owner of the stud dog) 

Replace EPI with allergies, MegaE, cancers, whatever...all in low numbers...I'm curious to know if puppy buyers are only concerned with the health of the sire/dam or if they want more detailed information and when they get it does it scare them away? Again, I'm talking about a pet buyer, not another breeder.


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## Sabis mom

I get notifications on a couple of breeder fb pages. One breeder that I have seen recommended on this forum seems to have a whole lot of ' my dog is limping. What do you recommend? ' from people with dogs from their breeding. 
Makes me a bit curious. I have to say it would not be a breeder I would recommend without some serious answers.


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## onyx'girl

Whiteshepherds said:


> Replace EPI with allergies, MegaE, cancers, whatever...all in low numbers...I'm curious to know if puppy buyers are only concerned with the health of the sire/dam or if they want more detailed information and when they get it does it scare them away? Again, I'm talking about a pet buyer, not another breeder.


I think for anyone buying, homework and research should be a given. But many don't want to spend time learning or even asking questions. If buyers actually spent time looking deeper into a breeders program instead of the buy it now mentality the breed would be better off. It may eliminate the breeders who take shortcuts and are breeding for the wrong reasons.



Sabis mom said:


> I get notifications on a couple of breeder fb pages. One breeder that I have seen recommended on this forum seems to have a whole lot of ' my dog is limping. What do you recommend? ' from people with dogs from their breeding.
> Makes me a bit curious. I have to say it would not be a breeder I would recommend without some serious answers.


are the dogs in sport? Injuries can occur when dogs are in agility or other high impact sport.


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## Sabis mom

onyx'girl said:


> I think for anyone buying, homework and research should be a given. But many don't want to spend time learning or even asking questions. If buyers actually spent time looking deeper into a breeders program instead of the buy it now mentality the breed would be better off. It may eliminate the breeders who take shortcuts and are breeding for the wrong reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> are the dogs in sport? Injuries can occur when dogs are in agility or other high impact sport.


Some are. Some are pets. Some are young. Some not as young. A few surgeries. Some crate rest. Just a lot of limpy dogs.
Shadow is constantly injured and I expect it from a genetic nightmare. But I would be ticked if I bought a dog for sport or work and it was unable to keep its legs under it.


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## cliffson1

I would really like to thank Wolfstraum for the depth of her post. This is the kind of thinking,( discriminate) that I feel benefits the breed. I also agree with weak nerves being the biggest non starter for me. To me weak nerves and genetic illnesses are pathways to ruination of the breed. Many illnesses,( like giarda, coat issues, mange, allergies, etc, ), are activated by stress! Stress is a definite by-product of weak nerves.....soooo, it would stand to reason that knowledgeable breeders would not touch a weak nerves dog for breeding under any circumstances. But what about things like missing testicles, an ear that doesn't stand, or very light eyes, ???


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## selzer

What about things like missing testicles, an ear that doesn't stand, very light eyes? 

Well, I think it was Chris Wild that wrote a post, specifically on EPI, but it transfers in looking at the whole dog. Not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

These things above will not effect the dog's function as a pet. If one were to occur in an otherwise nice litter, they wouldn't be much cause for concern, BUT, for the show breeders, a drop dead beautiful, stellar pup from this litter might be a carrier for the trait that it was not affected. And, bred back into its own line, even more pups could be affected. Now you have a champion dog that is producing retained testicles, or floppy ears. Of course a lot of show breeders help their pups' ears stand as a matter of course. 

Other than the testicle, these are mostly aesthetic qualities. I would be much more concerned about EPI, or Mega E, or bloat. Producing health issues is something that sooner or later is going to happen. And you have to then make choices, given the best information available. 

If you wait until you are ready, you will probably never have children, and you cannot wait until your dog/bitch prove their longevity to begin to produce progeny. And this is where having people who have been breeding for a while, experienced with the lines actually is worth more than other factors. You don't gain generations worth of knowledge within the lines by reading books and researching. You have to have the dogs, and you have to make choices, and see how things play out. This is something that can't be learned wholly from books. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty, and then you have to learn and adjust.


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## carmspack

I brought a new male into the program and then washed him out because he introduced panosteitis into lines that were tried true and tested and had never had pano pups before .

what a shame . seriously . a loss , as this male and of course the dams produced stunningly handsome correct conformation and good temperament and workability , - "bomb proof".

two sons , Stevie and Quincy , in honor of (Wonder and Jones) , experienced a furnace explosion which blew the cover plate across the room and filled the room with black smoke. I was in the kitchen directly above the furnace/laundry room and felt the floor raise up .

I moved so fast I just about fell down the staircase -- expecting to find the worst . Opened the door - couldn't see anything for the "smoke" . Slid the sliding gate to walk into room and almost tripped. Here were these two young 4 or 5 month old black pups right there to greet me , tail wagging as if nothing happened.

got every thing settled with the pups - called furnace repair emergency service -- found out that there had been a tiny pinhole prick that allowed fuel to spray out and when there was enough accumulation and the furnace ignited so did the fuel in the box - bam
took three days to wash and power wash the hard surfaces, ceiling, floor and walls . 

a few days later the pups could enjoy the room again as a hang out area during this very wet and cold spring .

I thought there would be hesitation - some bad memory . No . Nothing . Happy happy pups .

BUT by the time they were 6 or 7 months each one had bouts of severe pano . Willing - but incapable . Literally like limp dish rags. The curious thing is that each one would be identical as to the limb that was bothering them.
Put into adjoining pens it was like looking through a steroscope. Each one had right leg up -- days later each one had
left rear leg up . And so it went for months and months . 
During the good times and the LE trainers would visit to see progress they were stars - just like their name sakes - super stars .
And then they would be flattened out again. 
I saw this through till they were over a year of age . I removed them from consideration for a working dog because even though things looked good , they could be waylaid by the rigors of certification training and set bac a handler and a department and even then could be waylaid in the first months of being deployed .

While all this was going on - the sire was NOT bred . 
The sire and the two sons were removed and sold . 

NO pano -- before or since . 

Cliff said -- Many illnesses,( like giarda, coat issues, mange, allergies, etc, ), are activated by stress! Stress is a definite by-product of weak nerves.

I am forgiving of weak nerves. Giardia and coccidiosis and lyme and heart worm are parasitic , not congenital and not genetic - but environment , habitat , in an ever increasingly hostile , and post anti biotic world . 
Mange can be summoned by severe nutritional deficiency , over vaccination (and other things we pump into dogs) , being born to a sub par , deprived dam . Allergies - how many are true allergies - not as many as you would think -- not if you read the rigorous scientific papers and the cutting edge discoveries shared at microbiome conventions .
Food sensitivities -- promoted when there is disruption or damage to the intestines thanks to antibiotic use , parasites, vaccinations etc.


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## cliffson1

Okay, let's say that one of the astectic traits surface in a breeding program, if you plan to breed this dog, do you bring in new genetics or do you breed to same genetics but a dog that doesn't possess that trait?


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## selzer

carmspack said:


> I brought a new male into the program and then washed him out because he introduced panosteitis into lines that were tried true and tested and had never had pano pups before .
> 
> what a shame . seriously . a loss , as this male and of course the dams produced stunningly handsome correct conformation and good temperament and workability , - "bomb proof".
> 
> two sons , Stevie and Quincy , in honor of (Wonder and Jones) , experienced a furnace explosion which blew the cover plate across the room and filled the room with black smoke. I was in the kitchen directly above the furnace/laundry room and felt the floor raise up .
> 
> I moved so fast I just about fell down the staircase -- expecting to find the worst . Opened the door - couldn't see anything for the "smoke" . Slid the sliding gate to walk into room and almost tripped. Here were these two young 4 or 5 month old black pups right there to greet me , tail wagging as if nothing happened.
> 
> got every thing settled with the pups - called furnace repair emergency service -- found out that there had been a tiny pinhole prick that allowed fuel to spray out and when there was enough accumulation and the furnace ignited so did the fuel in the box - bam
> took three days to wash and power wash the hard surfaces, ceiling, floor and walls .
> 
> a few days later the pups could enjoy the room again as a hang out area during this very wet and cold spring .
> 
> I thought there would be hesitation - some bad memory . No . Nothing . Happy happy pups .
> 
> BUT by the time they were 6 or 7 months each one had bouts of severe pano . Willing - but incapable . Literally like limp dish rags. The curious thing is that each one would be identical as to the limb that was bothering them.
> Put into adjoining pens it was like looking through a steroscope. Each one had right leg up -- days later each one had
> left rear leg up . And so it went for months and months .
> During the good times and the LE trainers would visit to see progress they were stars - just like their name sakes - super stars .
> And then they would be flattened out again.
> I saw this through till they were over a year of age . I removed them from consideration for a working dog because even though things looked good , they could be waylaid by the rigors of certification training and set bac a handler and a department and even then could be waylaid in the first months of being deployed .
> 
> While all this was going on - the sire was NOT bred .
> The sire and the two sons were removed and sold .
> 
> NO pano -- before or since .
> 
> Cliff said -- Many illnesses,( like giarda, coat issues, mange, allergies, etc, ), are activated by stress! Stress is a definite by-product of weak nerves.
> 
> I am forgiving of weak nerves. Giardia and coccidiosis and lyme and heart worm are parasitic , not congenital and not genetic - but environment , habitat , in an ever increasingly hostile , and post anti biotic world .
> Mange can be summoned by severe nutritional deficiency , over vaccination (and other things we pump into dogs) , being born to a sub par , deprived dam . Allergies - how many are true allergies - not as many as you would think -- not if you read the rigorous scientific papers and the cutting edge discoveries shared at microbiome conventions .
> Food sensitivities -- promoted when there is disruption or damage to the intestines thanks to antibiotic use , parasites, vaccinations etc.


I wish they would look deeper into pano. I heard there was a study once with a bunch of dogs, on a wormer, albon. They found a large percentage of the test dogs were currently affected with pano. Decided to go ahead with the study as it would not bother the dogs. All the pano dogs recovered from the pano and did not have a reoccurrence after treated with albon. 

Could Pano be caused by some form of parasite or infection that is not being effectively treated? And could this be why often several dogs in a kennel are affected concurrently? 

Since I am not breeding working dogs, and pano is generally self-limiting and something that most dogs do grow out of, I probably would not make it a make or break issue when it comes to whether or not to breed. It would depend on the severity and the duration of the issue, in the stud dog and in the progeny of the stud dog. If a stud dog had a bout of pano at say, 8 months that was totally gone at 9 months, and never reoccurred, but then produced puppies that had problems throughout growing, and possibly later on, then yeah I might retire that stud dog.


----------



## Magwart

I wish we had more pano research too. The one dog that I had that had it severely as a pup ended up with osteosarcoma as a senior, with the bone tumor forming exactly where I remember a pano lesion had been spotted in a forelimb xray when he was a pup. Exactly the same spot! Coincidence? Perhaps, but I'm suspicious. We know inflammation leads to cascading problems, so there's no reason to think bone inflammation is innocuous.


----------



## cliffson1

Carmen, when it comes to weak nerves, I am not forgiving for breeding! I have found that dogs with weak nerves do not handle stress well. Plus it's easy to acquire, but insidious to eliminate. Furthermore, it so severely restricts the breeding options in an already limited quality gene pool; that it is a total non starter for me. 
I agree with your environmental and vaccine thoughts, I also agree that nutrition is also major player in problems in dogs in general. 
So how do we circumvent some of these items, especially via breeding choices?


----------



## carmspack

cliffson1 said:


> Carmen, when it comes to weak nerves, I am not forgiving for breeding! I have found that dogs with weak nerves do not handle stress well. Plus it's easy to acquire, but insidious to eliminate. Furthermore, it so severely restricts the breeding options in an already limited quality gene pool; that it is a total non starter for me.
> I agree with your environmental and vaccine thoughts, I also agree that nutrition is also major player in problems in dogs in general.
> So how do we circumvent some of these items, especially via breeding choices?


so true , Cliff so true -- weak nerves are the scurge -- not good for work , not good for pet.

look for and insist on pups that adapt and cope .
I take my 8 week olds out for a ride - stop at the coffee shop , pup under arm , plunk 
him on the sidewalk and start to move -- traffic and pedestrians 
the pup can take a few seconds to get his bearing and then he moves on with me
I need to only go 20 feet - pick him up under arm , put him in crate in the car - go
for a take out coffee -drive on a bit -- to another site with other stimulation - repeat.
data collected.
no rewards or bribes - just observation on what is there by nature -- that is what you have to work with 

the breed needs bold and secure dogs 

do not breed a female (especially) if there is not a genuine rugged healthiness . 

the breed needs natural hardiness - some people don't even know what that looks like
anymore -- 

wobbly movement , lack of co ordination the puppy ganglies -- should not be .

you breed for athletic dogs , you can stimulate neural connections , you can test for
neural soundness -- 

if a dog , who has been insinuated into the breed because he is "the" popular stud and he dies young and without explanation - then there should have been a medical explanation .

now there are dogs linebred on him running around. how does that help , how can it get better

eliminate dogs with spinal stenosis .

elminate dogs with poor ligament and cartilage integrity , excessive angulation
no dogs that walk on their pasterns - or hocks

understand what good functional conformation is .


----------



## CanineGSDs

LuvShepherds said:


> I have a teen dog who had terrible pano, but is otherwise sound and has a good temperament for my needs. He is a bit friendly for a WL dog but I like that. The breeder knows she has some pano in her lines, but if she stopped breeding any dog that might get it, she would lose all the good qualities her dogs have. He comes from excellent lines. His pedigree has many known good breeders.
> 
> I think allergies can come from other causes besides genetics. I would not buy a dog with EPI in the lines or with structural problems if I knew about them.
> 
> Allergies are annoying and destructive but can be managed.



Sorry, but if a breeder is continuing to breed knowing Panosteitis is in her lines, then that in my eyes is not anecessary ethical breeder.


----------



## CanineGSDs

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I also think pano isn't something to really use as a deterrent for breeding but should be considered/made note of in the overall picture for future.



I do.


----------



## cloudpump

cliffson1 said:


> Okay, let's say that one of the astectic traits surface in a breeding program, if you plan to breed this dog, do you bring in new genetics or do you breed to same genetics but a dog that doesn't possess that trait?


Weak ear, is overlooked if the dog is a true working dog. The ugliest dog can serve a purpose. Maybe an amazing herder. Or le dog. But cryptorchidism is a health issue.


----------



## CanineGSDs

carmspack said:


> I brought a new male into the program and then washed him out because he introduced panosteitis into lines that were tried true and tested and had never had pano pups before .
> 
> what a shame . seriously . a loss , as this male and of course the dams produced stunningly handsome correct conformation and good temperament and workability , - "bomb proof".
> 
> two sons , Stevie and Quincy , in honor of (Wonder and Jones) , experienced a furnace explosion which blew the cover plate across the room and filled the room with black smoke. I was in the kitchen directly above the furnace/laundry room and felt the floor raise up .
> 
> I moved so fast I just about fell down the staircase -- expecting to find the worst . Opened the door - couldn't see anything for the "smoke" . Slid the sliding gate to walk into room and almost tripped. Here were these two young 4 or 5 month old black pups right there to greet me , tail wagging as if nothing happened.
> 
> got every thing settled with the pups - called furnace repair emergency service -- found out that there had been a tiny pinhole prick that allowed fuel to spray out and when there was enough accumulation and the furnace ignited so did the fuel in the box - bam
> took three days to wash and power wash the hard surfaces, ceiling, floor and walls .
> 
> a few days later the pups could enjoy the room again as a hang out area during this very wet and cold spring .
> 
> I thought there would be hesitation - some bad memory . No . Nothing . Happy happy pups .
> 
> BUT by the time they were 6 or 7 months each one had bouts of severe pano . Willing - but incapable . Literally like limp dish rags. The curious thing is that each one would be identical as to the limb that was bothering them.
> Put into adjoining pens it was like looking through a steroscope. Each one had right leg up -- days later each one had
> left rear leg up . And so it went for months and months .
> During the good times and the LE trainers would visit to see progress they were stars - just like their name sakes - super stars .
> And then they would be flattened out again.
> I saw this through till they were over a year of age . I removed them from consideration for a working dog because even though things looked good , they could be waylaid by the rigors of certification training and set bac a handler and a department and even then could be waylaid in the first months of being deployed .
> 
> While all this was going on - the sire was NOT bred .
> The sire and the two sons were removed and sold .
> 
> NO pano -- before or since .
> 
> Cliff said -- Many illnesses,( like giarda, coat issues, mange, allergies, etc, ), are activated by stress! Stress is a definite by-product of weak nerves.
> 
> I am forgiving of weak nerves. Giardia and coccidiosis and lyme and heart worm are parasitic , not congenital and not genetic - but environment , habitat , in an ever increasingly hostile , and post anti biotic world .
> Mange can be summoned by severe nutritional deficiency , over vaccination (and other things we pump into dogs) , being born to a sub par , deprived dam . Allergies - how many are true allergies - not as many as you would think -- not if you read the rigorous scientific papers and the cutting edge discoveries shared at microbiome conventions .
> Food sensitivities -- promoted when there is disruption or damage to the intestines thanks to antibiotic use , parasites, vaccinations etc.



I am so very happy to hear you wouldn't breed a dog that has had pano or panoramic in the lines.

I am happy to say that I have never had one get Pano. Guess I am lucky. ?


----------



## onyx'girl

carmspack said:


> Cliff said -- Many illnesses,( like giarda, coat issues, mange, allergies, etc, ), are activated by stress! Stress is a definite by-product of weak nerves.
> 
> I am forgiving of weak nerves. Giardia and coccidiosis and lyme and heart worm are parasitic , not congenital and not genetic - but environment , habitat , in an ever increasingly hostile , and post anti biotic world .
> Mange can be summoned by severe nutritional deficiency , over vaccination (and other things we pump into dogs) , being born to a sub par , deprived dam . Allergies - how many are true allergies - not as many as you would think -- not if you *read the rigorous scientific papers and the cutting edge discoveries shared at microbiome conventions .*
> Food sensitivities -- promoted when there is disruption or damage to the intestines thanks to antibiotic use , parasites, vaccinations etc.


I thought I would share this article, it is interesting about what may cause 'weak nerves' even though it is about humans, I think there is some merit when it comes to canines too. I know most often, nerves are genetic. But now and then there may be other reasons for anxiousness, or other behavioral issues.

Scientists link gut bacteria to anxiety disorders | Irish Examiner


----------



## LuvShepherds

CanineGSDs said:


> Sorry, but if a breeder is continuing to breed knowing Panosteitis is in her lines, then that in my eyes is not anecessary ethical breeder.


Then you would not want to buy from that breeder, but I disagree that it's unethical. Only if the breeder intentionally lies or hides it. Pano in our breed is like fleas, common. It's annoying but with proper treatment, they have no ill effects once they outgrow it.


----------



## onyx'girl

I have had one dog with many bouts of Panosteitis. I had her on Nutro at the time, and then decided to switch up her nutrition(this was in 2006, so during the beginning of the recalls). Raw diet didn't stop her Pano, though, she was/is very large in structure for a female, 26" and 90#. I don't see her diet(which I researched before putting her on raw) playing into structure, but it may have accelerated her growth along with spaying early at 6 months. Hindsight... I don't think Pano is always genetic.

There are many things that may play into it. And thankfully it does go away. BUT, my female never was agile, or athletic. At 10, arthritis in her joints is evident. She does not have HD, but structurally does not have enough angulation that I would like to see in this breed. Her rear is high, straight backed is not a good thing! There is a reason for some angulation, as long as it isn't extreme.


----------



## LuvShepherds

onyx'girl said:


> I have had one dog with many bouts of Panosteitis. I had her on Nutro at the time, and then decided to switch up her nutrition(this was in 2006, so during the beginning of the recalls). Raw diet didn't stop her Pano, though, she was/is very large in structure for a female, 26" and 90#. I don't see her diet(which I researched before putting her on raw) playing into structure, but it may have accelerated her growth along with spaying early at 6 months. Hindsight... I don't think Pano is always genetic.
> 
> There are many things that may play into it. And thankfully it does go away. BUT, my female never was agile, or athletic. At 10, arthritis in her joints is evident. She does not have HD, but structurally does not have enough angulation that I would like to see in this breed. Her rear is high, straight backed is not a good thing! There is a reason for some angulation, as long as it isn't extreme.


I have a wonderful young male who had many bouts of pano. I let him set his activity level, which was low when it hurt, and he outgrew it. Because he was stuck indoors with me so often we bonded in a way I haven't before with a dog and that ended up being a good thing. I don't expect him to have any long term effects from it based on my research. He is agile, and he loves to run. I agree with Selzer, I think there are other causes that we may not understand, besides genetics. I just don't know. I have had many GSDs and he is the only one who had pano. He didn't grow too fast, he isn't oversized, I fed him well. He did have Giardia young and I think those meds were more detrimental than pano was. It disrupted his training, but as a result, I ended up using a private trainer instead and have had much better results than I would have with a class.


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## cliffson1

IF pano was induced by growth spurts that were the result of nutritional factors, or abnormal bone/ size in dog, why would folks feel it was necessary to eliminate dog from gene pool instead of compensate when breeding the dog?


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## Kazel

cliffson1 said:


> IF pano was induced by growth spurts that were the result of nutritional factors, or abnormal bone/ size in dog, why would folks feel it was necessary to eliminate dog from gene pool instead of compensate when breeding the dog?


I was wondering about that. I don't quite understand what Pano is, but when I was reading it, it sounded similar to the pain a lot of human children go through when growing. I know sometimes my growing pains would hurt so much I would cry, loose my appetite, and just feel poorly.


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## NancyJ

I am not a dog breeder. I made an immediate decision to not pursue an evaluation of my dog for breeding due to DJD1 (with no clinical signs) AND the knowledge his uncommon lines (some of which represent some old Swedish dogs than split off from Germany before 1920) are being carried forward at least in SAR dogs. 

I would hope a breeder look at what they have in front of them and if it preserves unique or under represented genetic material perhaps they would have more of a "pass" than someone who has a dog with very mainstream lines.


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## lhczth

Health issues are a given in the breeding dog or if a huge issue in their lines or in their own puppies. Beyond that, I have no tolerance for environmentally weak nerves. There are other things that I, myself look for, but, weak nerves followed by health issues are important for both working dogs and pets.


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## gsdsar

Not a breeder. But one day maybe. 

I believe that you have to look at an entire picture. Not a single issue when deciding to breed. Though there may be a single issue big enough to warrant the decsion(dysplasia)

I do t think pano is a reason to strike a dog from breeding, unless it severly effects a majority of dogs produced to an extent that quality of life is in consideration. Prett sure there is a famous ASL that was nearly euthanized due to debilitating pano. Lance? Hatter? Anyway. 

Soft ears? No, maybe pick a different mix the next time. But that is no a disqualification. 

Retained testicle. This one is tricky. No, you don't breed a dog with a retained testicle. But what if a dog produces male pups that 5% also have retained, or 50%? Where is the line? At what point do you pull a make from breeding? I don't know. 

EPI, mega-e, heart problem and honestly allergies. I think that's fair to pull a dog from breeding.


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## carmspack

. If the pano is of the slightest - may be an inflammation -- that is one thing 

but there are dogs with debilitating pano who are way laid at critical , most productive , trainable times and the working life can be cut short .

Oh yes , I remember those Lance progeny all too well . Flat as a pancake , unable to move - they were really in distress. 
I wonder what the ASL breed would be like today if Yoncalla's Mike would have been selected as the main line .

The two that I had , were x rayed , more than once - hips were actually quite nice .
The LE still kept coming around and patiently waiting . The dogs were okayish after a point - but it didn't take much to lay them off again.

Finally it seemed as if it were resolved -- I was the one who did not send them on for training . Because I could not reliably say they would be able to fly through trainging (physically) or guarantee that after training they would not break down and leave the handler without a dog , and much tax money spent on courses and handler training expenses.

that is part of my credo -- a working breed needs to be able to work .


----------



## Tennessee

onyx'girl said:


> [Snip]
> 
> Her rear is high, straight backed is not a good thing!
> 
> There is a reason for some angulation, as long as it isn't extreme.


Yes it is.

No there isn't.

It's purely cosmetic, and serves no purpose. Unless you consider dragging off carcasses a GSDs purpose, which is why hyenas are shaped that way. 

Not how I wanted to introduce myself to the board, but whatever.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I recently posted a question and pedigree on a potential breeding to get some feedback. I got a little feedback after sending some PM's from experienced breeders. They can chime in if they want their opinions to be known. For example, one breeder said they would never line breed on Yoschy, especially close up. Another echoed the same concern due to Yoschy dying from cancer and producing dwarfism. Was the cancer genetically based or due to environment? Others said to be wary of Tom van't Leefdaalhof in a pedigree due a history of producing back issues. Same for Queen vom Revolutionskuppel, who had back issues and tended to produce them. I have a friend who had a dog where Queen was the paternal granddam and his dog had to be put down at age 10 due to crippling spinal stenosis. Another said they wouldn't breed so tight on Fero due to potential health risks, yet Koos Hassing's breeding program is largely founded on close line breeding on Fero. I have heard it said of Nick vom Heiligenbosch that he had back issues and tended to throw them in some of his breedings. Yet dogs like Yoschy, Queen, Tom, and Nick, even when line bred on, have produced some super dogs. I think until the art of breeding can come up with genetic testing for breeding pairs, it is a toss of the dice. I also think that due to so much in/line breeding in the breed, the odds of genetic disorders are more likely, which is largely true of many "purebred" dogs. I think that one advantage of the unregistered KNPV lines of Mal and DS's, where they have outcrossed to other breeds, has been to widen the genetic pool and reduce some of the genetic health issues.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I forgot to mention that there are more than a few people out there that think Fero produced a lot of dogs unsuitable for police work because he tended to throw environmental nerve issues like not tolerating engaging on slick floors or in tight, dark spaces. Yet, if you look at Jinopo's breeding program, who touts itself as breeding to improve their lines and eliminating genetic heath and temperament problems, you will see more and more of their studs dogs going back to Fero, and they also market themselves as breeding more for a working dog than a sport dog.


----------



## Steve Strom

Chip Blasiole said:


> I forgot to mention that there are more than a few people out there that think Fero produced a lot of dogs unsuitable for police work because he tended to throw environmental nerve issues like not tolerating engaging on slick floors or in tight, dark spaces. Yet, if you look at Jinopo's breeding program, who touts itself as breeding to improve their lines and eliminating genetic heath and temperament problems, you will see more and more of their studs dogs going back to Fero, and they also market themselves as breeding more for a working dog than a sport dog.


I just look at it as it depends on who you're talking to, and whether or not you feel you should put your trust in them. Some people love Lord, but then you see this and I would think failure to engage to the point of avoidance would be a red flag:

https://vimeo.com/29975897

I tend to focus on the current dogs, and what the person breeding them is doing with them, currently.


----------



## cliffson1

Steve, in the case of Lord, speculation on what he could do and more importantly what he produced is incontrovertible fact! The results and progenies are in such numbers that his contribution to the breed can't be denied.As for people's personal preferences, I agree you have to go with whom you trust. In my case, I have had grandsons, granddaughters, dogs linebred on him, i have bred these dogs and know what I have found. So for me, I trust what I have owned, worked, and bred, more than anything else. But there are definitely differing opinions on him.
Chip, I often when analyzing a pedigree or commenting on a dog say," this is a dog I love in a pedigree once, but wouldn't want to see them more than once" or " this is a dog that is nice but I would never linebred on him/her"..... I think a lot of the dogs you mentioned would fit in those categories, especially in certain pedigrees.


----------



## Steve Strom

cliffson1 said:


> Steve, in the case of Lord, speculation on what he could do and more importantly what he produced is incontrovertible fact! The results and progenies are in such numbers that his contribution to the breed can't be denied.As for people's personal preferences, I agree you have to go with whom you trust. In my case, I have had grandsons, granddaughters, dogs linebred on him, i have bred these dogs and know what I have found. So for me, I trust what I have owned, worked, and bred, more than anything else. But there are definitely differing opinions on him.
> Chip, I often when analyzing a pedigree or commenting on a dog say," this is a dog I love in a pedigree once, but wouldn't want to see them more than once" or " this is a dog that is nice but I would never linebred on him/her"..... I think a lot of the dogs you mentioned would fit in those categories, especially in certain pedigrees.


I'm not sure I'm reading all that the way you mean it, speculation is incontrovertible fact? Besides that though, it still comes down to seeing what's current and either trusting where you tell me it came from or not trusting it, based on what I can see. I'm not saying I don't or wouldn't, or personalizing it. I'm just saying that's how I look at it because of all the different opinions and facts Chip posted.


----------



## WateryTart

Whiteshepherds said:


> Okay I'll rephrase...dogs with known cases of EPI in the bloodline....As an example, do breeders feel obligated to tell puppy buyers that the grand sire produced dogs with EPI, but only a few? If that kind of information is divulged does it scare the prospective puppy buyers away? (I'm talking pet buyer as opposed to the owner of the stud dog)
> 
> Replace EPI with allergies, MegaE, cancers, whatever...all in low numbers...I'm curious to know if puppy buyers are only concerned with the health of the sire/dam or if they want more detailed information and when they get it does it scare them away? Again, I'm talking about a pet buyer, not another breeder.


For me - I would sure hope so. Everything known - whether concerning or good - was disclosed to me before I bought my dog, both about her litter and about others bred by my breeder. I appreciated that. It told me that everyone's intentions were honest and above board. It probably does scare some buyers away. It wouldn't scare me away immediately; I'd want a conversation about that first, and the opportunity to think it over and assess what I thought was the risk. Ultimately it might, depending on what it was, but not necessarily.

What I would hope the breeder would do is if a pairing produced two or more pups in the same litter with EPI/allergies/Mega-E/whatever, then I would hope s/he would not repeat said pairing, or a mating of either dog to a close relative of the other.


----------



## cliffson1

Nah Steve, I'm saying that 3X the DDR Bundessiegerprufund National champion, I'm saying trialed 18 times in tracking with 15 times scores of 100 are facts in reference to performance. I'm saying that his many great sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters are facts as to his progeny. I'm saying the exceptional tracking and hip production is also factual.These things can be verified.


----------



## Steve Strom

Is there any other trial video of him? Anything on from the west side of the wall? Watching him avoid the helper like that,,,, kinda tough to put faith in East German scoring.


----------



## cliffson1

Hey, maybe he was a fraud, I guess it depends on your standards.
Btw, I had a VHS of 87 or 88 DDR Bundesseiger( not sure which year without looking) in which he won. But most people today would not highly value the old DDR dogs, priorities are different today.


----------



## Steve Strom

Or maybe figment?


----------



## Steve Strom

So since you edited, so will I with a serious question. How do you reconcile what you see in that video with any of the qualities you've posted as looking for in German Shepherds? Yesterday, today, tomorrow, whenever. 

(I couldn't edit, too late)


----------



## onyx'girl

> Originally Posted by onyx'girl
> 
> [Snip]
> 
> Her rear is high, straight backed is not a good thing!
> 
> There is a reason for some angulation, as long as it isn't extreme.





Tennessee said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> No there isn't.
> 
> It's purely cosmetic, and serves no purpose. Unless you consider dragging off carcasses a GSDs purpose, which is why hyenas are shaped that way.
> 
> Not how I wanted to introduce myself to the board, but whatever.


Welcome to the board. 
I did not say roached back. I said some angulation. When the hips are higher or level with the flank, the dog is not going to be as athletic or agile when the body is longer as the GSD is...They are not squared like a malinois.


----------



## lhczth

Timmy bösen Nachbarschaft was also used and behind quite a few popular dogs yet he looked like he wanted to bolt during the H&B and guarding when at the BSP. What did breeders see in him that they were still willing to use him? Obviously there were breeders that saw past the performance at the BSP, saw the dog in training and felt he would contribute to their program. Without him we would not have had Nick. If you are a member of workingdogs.eu there are videos of him in the two BSP her participated. 

I actually saw that same behavior from some Lord sons and grandsons, but he also brought exceptional hunt drive and health. Was this a nerve issue or a lack of fight drive/active aggression? My next breeding will bring in Lord (though he is a ways back) to bring in a slightly different line and to maintain the high hunt drive I want in my dogs.


----------



## carmspack

Oh , looks like I will have to write out the Lord - interview

he brought active aggression -- for sure --- these are not trial dogs and can't be judged by our choreographed trials --

you do a "play" pretend exercise over and over and over -- the "real" goes out of it


----------



## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> Oh , looks like I will have to write out the Lord - interview
> 
> he brought active aggression -- for sure --- these are not trial dogs and can't be judged by our choreographed trials --
> 
> you do a "play" pretend exercise over and over and over -- the "real" goes out of it


Well, at least now I know what you mean by real. No doubt, you couldn't of choreographed that.


----------



## lhczth

The problem with calling it a play pretend exercise is that things were very different in how the dogs were trained back then. The helpers were not their play buddies and there was often a lot of conflict with the handler. A dog with social aggression/fight drive would have not been bored. That would have been far more common in a prey based dog or a dog that lacks fight drive. Since I don't see Lord as producing weak nerves or him getting used like he did if he had weak nerves, then I would say it is more a lack of fight drive/social aggression. This is also what I saw in the kids I was around. Maybe it was just the cross that produced these dogs.


----------



## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> Timmy bösen Nachbarschaft was also used and behind quite a few popular dogs yet he looked like he wanted to bolt during the H&B and guarding when at the BSP. What did breeders see in him that they were still willing to use him? Obviously there were breeders that saw past the performance at the BSP, saw the dog in training and felt he would contribute to their program. Without him we would not have had Nick. If you are a member of workingdogs.eu there are videos of him in the two BSP her participated.
> 
> I actually saw that same behavior from some Lord sons and grandsons, but he also brought exceptional hunt drive and health. Was this a nerve issue or a lack of fight drive/active aggression? My next breeding will bring in Lord (though he is a ways back) to bring in a slightly different line and to maintain the high hunt drive I want in my dogs.


I'll have to look at Timmy, I don't remember ever seeing those. 


> Was this a nerve issue or a lack of fight drive/active aggression?


How would you look at it with Lord? If someone offered you that dog to stud, what would you look at Lisa, that would make you say this is good and outweighs him looking like a sh er when the leash came off?


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## GatorDog

I'd love to understand how trial picture has made a super strong dog appear like a nervebag, and how we can quickly flip back and forth between "Schutzhund of the old days was amazing and IPO now is a joke", to calling that video a result of routine "play" to come up with an excuse for the behavior.


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## cliffson1

Steve, I'm going to be serious now one last time, I obviously don't have the credibility of that video in your mind, ...and I'm not trying to change your mind,( I've grown weary of that in this age of videos), but here goes....
Lord was known for excellent hips, great hunt drive, and very good aggression when bred with right dogs. He also instilled good defensive fight, again with right dogs. This comes from his sire, Jeff Flamings Sands and grandsire, the immortal Ingo v Rudigen. 
I told you I have owned grandson and granddaughter of Lord, and the male became LE dog and the granddaughter produced LE dogs. The granddaughter was an Alk daughter, but her mother was a Tikerhook daughter. From her I got multiple LE dogs, my Lord grandson was from Manto v Kalenbach. Manto is currently one of the best sources of strong hard dogs in current bloodlines. Manto's mother was Julia, who was west German working lines before they got sporty. Another son of Lord was a dog named Enno that was imported into US in early nineties, who had very high fight and very high defense.
Frankly, when ever I see Lord in a pedigree today it's a positive because of what Lisa said, his contribution of hips and hunt drive. He was not a video type dog in what many are conditioned to look at....absolute full grips and airborne long bite. 
( Btw, the long bite in DDR was completely different from Sch/IPO long bite. It was much more like the long bite in KNPV in where the man is stationary, with reed stick in hand and the dog is sent from plats position with handler off the field and the dog must go through the reed hit to make the bite. Definitely not a prey setup of movement( except for the decoy trying to hit the dog as he comes through the stick hit), but more a trigger of high defense on the dog.)
Lord was a great working dog, with great working genetics, but if you want to seek him today with the prey mindset, he is best sought through Manto. I have seen some nice breeding programs based on Lord as foundation dog, especially one in Delaware. 
But on another note, I'm trying to emphasize that Lord has to be evaluated in context to the other dogs in pedigree. I would not linebreed on Alk, his son, for one reason, as linebreeding on his other son, Manto, produces dogs that really need savvy owners. 
But I have used Lord for my purposes, because he brings excellent genetics, for what little I know.


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## lhczth

@Steve Strom, Unlike when I watched Timmy who kept startling at the judge, I look at Lord, in that video, and see a dog lacking in fight drive. I have never seen any other videos of other dogs at the DDR BSP so don't know if this was the norm for the event. Were they supposed to circle or were they supposed to do a H&B like we want in SchH/IPO. If I saw this, I most definitely would question the commitment and fight of the dog. I also see it in the little bit of guarding they show after the outs. He is looking around and not showing intensity. He doesn't look jumpy and nervous, just not committed. He does look committed, though, when on the bite. Would I breed to him? I would need to see more than this video.


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## wolfstraum

Further to Cliffs comments on Lord...

First, I am assuming his reference to a program in Delaware was the kennel name von der Polizie....2 female law enforcement officers - and they moved to Maryland .....I know them and the dogs they produced were strong working dogs and they bred for police work and SAR. They used Alk and loved what he produced for them, especially with daughters of their male who was linebred on Nessel, Yago v d Polizie (by Pirol Enclavenhof and 2-2 on Nessel). My first Sch3 dog was a daughter of Alk from a Yago daughter who was 4-4 on Lord - and reported by many to be the "best Alk I (they) ever saw" - which Alk's owner reported back to me! Her dam was from the von der polizie program and not owned by Greg, but she carried his kennel name. My female, Kyra was 2,5-5 on Lord. Absolutely flawless nerves, real prey but not so much toy prey, strong strong hunt drive and tracking talent, not so hot biddability - this little bit of attitude LOL - she did what you asked, just not quite as enthusiastically as you'd like ....definitely not a "sport" type dog - went through the motions in the blind search but obedient - as soon as it got serious - ie the escape bite, she became very strong in protection - we did 6? 8? Sch3, scores from 90-96, a couple HIT - including one trial where we were the only passing entry - tracking field under water, and she was the only dog to pass tracking....even losing one article that either sank or floated away as the tracklayer could not find it....

At this point, she is the basis of my breeding program. I had only one litter with her - due to the unpopularity of Alk among sport people I did not pursue breedings with her after the male I chose to pair her with became unfertile. Her one litter produced 2 certified SAR dogs - one passed at 12.5 years old, 1 male Sch2 - gorgeous gorgeous male lost young due to stupidity, 1 state police narcotics/patrol dog (also SAR) - passed at 12 years old, 1 female companion dog, and my Csabre, both of whom are alive and physically sound for 13 years, 8 months old!!!! Csabre produced 2 litters, with several titled dogs, including an HGH, and now her grandget from the HGH are working in sport and are very very nice working dogs. Two other grandget litters are too young - but a couple are starting tracking and showing good potential. There have been NO health issues - no backs, no bad elbows or severe dysplasia, no allergies, no EPI, no DM - just generally healthy dogs with good longevity.

Interestingly - even this far down the road, every one of these dogs who has been worked in front of or with LE officers, has generated offers for them....even females. They are still not high prey, typical sport dogs, and I have endeavored to keep them that way. When Koermeister Wilfried Scheld did my first koer with Kyra - he pointed at Lord in the pedigree and said - and I quote "*the BEST dog to ever come out of East Germany"* He also cautioned me to breed her to no dogs with Fero and to pursue a line free of Fero with her and her progeny. Alas, this has become nearly impossible and I am cautious of every new male's genetics for what health or temperament flaws it can bring into this family.

Schutzhund today is not the same as it was in Lord's time and neither are the dogs people are striving to breed for the sport.


Lee


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## Sabis mom

I am not a breeder. Not an expert. But I have worked real dogs whose job it was to watch my back and get me home safe.
I watched that video and saw a dog who was bored. Not avoiding as is clear by the rest of the video. Just one who has done this a thousand times and finds the blind search boring and no longer rewarding.
The risk of sport I would think.


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## holland

I did not watch the video -not a breeder either-maybe if he is a real dog he just didn't perceive a threat? or it wasn't good training?


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> @Steve Strom, Unlike when I watched Timmy who kept startling at the judge, I look at Lord, in that video, and see a dog lacking in fight drive. I have never seen any other videos of other dogs at the DDR BSP so don't know if this was the norm for the event. Were they supposed to circle or were they supposed to do a H&B like we want in SchH/IPO. If I saw this, I most definitely would question the commitment and fight of the dog. I also see it in the little bit of guarding they show after the outs. He is looking around and not showing intensity. He doesn't look jumpy and nervous, just not committed. He does look committed, though, when on the bite. Would I breed to him? I would need to see more than this video.


Lack of commitment isn't a good thing though. I can't see how that can ever match active aggression, and if I was going to nitpik a little, I doubt that commitment on the bite too from the way the sleeve is held up keeping tension. This isn't a challenge to credibility, people got dogs they like from him, great. If you like Lord, good. Perspective comes with opinions and I like to see for myself what matches up with descriptions. From what I can see of the little bit of video around, the H&B was basically the same, and avoidance wasn't part of it. That real long escape bite and the short courage test are interesting, I thought. I don't don't think they're any radically different test of anything though. 

The dogs are what they are, I know video doesn't show everything, but this is what you have online along with a ton of different opinions on whats good, wasn't or isn't. I'm not looking at then vs now, prey drive, or serious, none of that. I'm looking at a highly regarded by some dog, lacking.


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## Steve Strom

holland said:


> I did not watch the video -not a breeder either-maybe if he is a real dog he just didn't perceive a threat? or it wasn't good training?


He's supposed to find and guard the person and show the self control to not bite. If he's a 3 time DDR champion I don't think it comes down to a question of training Holland. This is showing the temperament and character of the dog. And its not a matter of a newer standard of judging. If you watch a big trial, you'll see a wide range of temperaments in the dogs. Today, just like 1988.

The training is different now. Its not all compulsion first. One other thing I can never reconcile with some of these topics, how do you know what a newer style of training would have shown with some of the older dogs? I don't see agreement on that either. Some will insist the dogs are absolutely different, some will say it would have been different. Depends on who you're talking to.


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## Tennessee

onyx'girl said:


> Welcome to the board.
> I did not say roached back. I said some angulation. When the hips are higher or level with the flank, the dog is not going to be as athletic or agile when the body is longer as the GSD is...They are not squared like a malinois.


 
You realize that doesn't make sense right?


GSD breed standards call for between 21.65 - 25.59 at the shoulder and length from chest to tail of 111% - 125% of height at the shoulder.


Making length 24.03in - 31.99in. 


You know what's even longer length to height? Grey wolves
32-34in height 41-63in length 128% - 185%


You can see their sloping topline that increases athleticism below:


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## WateryTart

Tennessee, do you feel like there's anything wrong with the angulation? I'm not talking an extreme, a German Shepherd-colored jackrabbit. I'm talking moderate rear angulation, some slope to the topline.

Just curious. Because it seems to me that unless we are talking about extremes in structure (in any direction), it's just personal preference. I personally like it. I know I'm in the minority. I'd love to better understand your viewpoint, though, because my dog is very moderate (bred to a moderate target and has still less angulation than the pups kept for show), but I still get tons of comments on her topline and hips.


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## Tennessee

WateryTart said:


> Tennessee, do you feel like there's anything wrong with the angulation? I'm not talking an extreme, a German Shepherd-colored jackrabbit. I'm talking moderate rear angulation, some slope to the topline.
> 
> Just curious. Because it seems to me that unless we are talking about extremes in structure (in any direction), it's just personal preference. I personally like it. I know I'm in the minority. I'd love to better understand your viewpoint, though, because my dog is very moderate (bred to a moderate target and has still less angulation than the pups kept for show), but I still get tons of comments on her topline and hips.



I take umbrage at the assertion that the angulation is necessary or beneficial. It's unnatural, and the common excuse that it increases athleticism or helps them run smoothly all day... does that really stand up to even the most basic test of logic?


Do wolves, foxes, coyotes, jackals etc have sloped backs? No


Is anyone claiming they aren't athletic and can't run all day long? No


Then why are we defending something that's severely damaged the breed, is against the original intention of the breed, and came about as a way to exaggerate the stack (cosmetic purposes)?


The only canid like animal in nature I can think of that has a highly sloped back is a hyena, it's purpose is to lower the back end for dragging kills to a more secluded area to hide from the numerous other African predators. 


That being said, a mild slope doesn't hurt anything and I'm not zealously against it. I just believe that for the sake of the breed, what you're describing in your dog should be the extent of the show line exaggeration of traits.


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## kimbale

Tennessee said:


> You realize that doesn't make sense right?
> 
> 
> GSD breed standards call for between 21.65 - 25.59 at the shoulder and length from chest to tail of 111% - 125% of height at the shoulder.
> 
> 
> Making length 24.03in - 31.99in.
> 
> 
> You know what's even longer length to height? Grey wolves
> 32-34in height 41-63in length 128% - 185%
> 
> 
> You can see their sloping topline that increases athleticism below:



I really can't stand it when people use wolves to try to prove the point of angulation in GSDs. I'm a studied and practiced wolf biologist who has worked at the International Wolf Center. A few things:

1) That wolf is standing in the snow as opposed to flat ground, so there's a very good chance that the ground it is standing on plus it's backwards looking stance is causing the appearance of an upward slope. 

2) Wolves and GSDs have very different purposes and requirements for athleticism. Wolves are long-distance runners and joggers, so their bodies are built for that. GSDs are herding and cutting dogs, meaning they trot over long distances and cut in and out of the herd with shorts busts of speed. Moderate angulation assists with a more effortless trot and transition between a trot and a bursting cut movement. You are comparing two wildly different animals.

3) Comparing a wild wolf to a domesticated dog is frankly, dumb. Wolves are not elite or perfect. Most of them die by the age of 5-7 because of all sorts of different reasons including faulty genetics, diseases, injury, starvation, etc. They are not to be held up as the ideal canine. Years of selective breeding have given us pretty great animals and almost all well-bred dogs are healthier than any wild wolf.

I like moderate angulation in a GSD, and I have both a WL and a WGSL. I think it looks beautiful in motion and there is no health risk or other problem caused by slight angulation.


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## WateryTart

Tennessee said:


> I take umbrage at the assertion that the angulation is necessary or beneficial. It's unnatural, and the common excuse that it increases athleticism or helps them run smoothly all day... does that really stand up to even the most basic test of logic?
> 
> 
> Do wolves, foxes, coyotes, jackals etc have sloped backs? No
> 
> 
> Is anyone claiming they aren't athletic and can't run all day long? No
> 
> 
> Then why are we defending something that's severely damaged the breed, is against the original intention of the breed, and came about as a way to exaggerate the stack (cosmetic purposes)?
> 
> 
> The only canid like animal in nature I can think of that has a highly sloped back is a hyena, it's purpose is to lower the back end for dragging kills to a more secluded area to hide from the numerous other African predators.
> 
> 
> That being said, a mild slope doesn't hurt anything and I'm not zealously against it. I just believe that for the sake of the breed, what you're describing in your dog should be the extent of the show line exaggeration of traits.


I see your point. I've also felt the power and athleticism in my moderately angulated dog with plenty of "rear drive" propelling her forward, so I am not sure I can fully agree with you that it is useless. On the other hand, it seems like we share the opinion that moderate doesn't hurt anything. Regardless, I really appreciate you taking the time to go into more depth. It does give me a better understanding of where you're coming from, and it makes sense to me.

I do agree that moderation in structure is key, and I've seen some younger ASL dogs that have beautiful angulation while not being exaggerated. I appreciate the breeders who are moving away from extremes in that regard: setting the more moderate target. The gait may not be the only way to move all day long, but a GSD in a fluid trot is a beautiful sight.


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## Tennessee

kimbale said:


> I really can't stand it when people use wolves to try to prove the point of angulation in GSDs. I'm a studied and practiced wolf biologist who has worked at the International Wolf Center. A few things:
> 
> 1) That wolf is standing in the snow as opposed to flat ground, so there's a very good chance that the ground it is standing on plus it's backwards looking stance is causing the appearance of an upward slope.
> 
> 2) Wolves and GSDs have very different purposes and requirements for athleticism. Wolves are long-distance runners and joggers, so their bodies are built for that. GSDs are herding and cutting dogs, meaning they trot over long distances and cut in and out of the herd with shorts busts of speed. Moderate angulation assists with a more effortless trot and transition between a trot and a bursting cut movement. You are comparing two wildly different animals.
> 
> 3) Comparing a wild wolf to a domesticated dog is frankly, dumb. Wolves are not elite or perfect. Most of them die by the age of 5-7 because of all sorts of different reasons including faulty genetics, diseases, injury, starvation, etc. They are not to be held up as the ideal canine. Years of selective breeding have given us pretty great animals and almost all well-bred dogs are healthier than any wild wolf.
> 
> I like moderate angulation in a GSD, and I have both a WL and a WGSL. I think it looks beautiful in motion and there is no health risk or other problem caused by slight angulation.



1) you're correct, you can clearly see in the picture where it's back legs are maybe an inch higher in the snow. Meaning it's back would be perfectly flat where it standing on a table.


2) What other canids, or dogs require the GSD slope? Why does every other athletic breed have no slope, or reverse slope for the sight hounds which serves a different purpose? Every other athletic breed and every other wild canine is flat, what makes the GSD special that it needs this trait?
Coyotes and foxes hunt a lot of rabbits, you seriously going to claim they can't efficiently make quick bursts and change directions?


3) Now you're just getting nasty because I challenged what you personally like. :crying: You know as well as I that natural selection isn't perfect, and if humans were solely in control of wolf breeding they'd be healthier and live longer. That being said, Canid like creatures have existed on this earth for 34 million plus years. And here we are with every single one on every single continent having the same basic structure. But GSDs need to be different, for reasons....... :thumbup:


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## Whiteshepherds

In depth explanation of croup, angulation etc. and how they affect a dogs movement. 

http://www.louisdonald.com/the-croup-of-the-german-shepherd-dog.html - The German Shepherd Dog


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## kimbale

Tennessee said:


> 1) you're correct, you can clearly see in the picture where it's back legs are maybe an inch higher in the snow. Meaning it's back would be perfectly flat where it standing on a table.
> 
> 
> 2) What other canids, or dogs require the GSD slope? Why does every other athletic breed have no slope, or reverse slope for the sight hounds which serves a different purpose? Every other athletic breed and every other wild canine is flat, what makes the GSD special that it needs this trait?
> Coyotes and foxes hunt a lot of rabbits, you seriously going to claim they can't efficiently make quick bursts and change directions?
> 
> 
> 3) Now you're just getting nasty because I challenged what you personally like. :crying: You know as well as I that natural selection isn't perfect, and if humans were solely in control of wolf breeding they'd be healthier and live longer. That being said, Canid like creatures have existed on this earth for 34 million plus years. And here we are with every single one on every single continent having the same basic structure. But GSDs need to be different, for reasons....... :thumbup:



Yeah, far from crying. 

My point about wolves (and any wild canine) is that they do not make for good comparisons. It's basically like comparing a human to an ape. Wildly different purposes, environments, requirements, etc. 

Comparing the GSD to other herding dogs is a far more valid argument. The GSD absolutely has the most angulation of any herding breed, that said there are other herding breeds that do have a bit because of the length of their back legs as compared to their front legs. The Belgian Tervuren is one. Like I said, it's not nearly as pronounced, but it's there (particularly when you stack them like you would a GSD). At the end of the day, this is just the way that the GSD breed went and it has proven to be helpful in their job without any adverse health issues. I'm not saying it's a requirement for herding dogs or dogs that weave and dart, so don't misinterpret my message. What I am saying is that, in the GSD, there is a legitimate reason behind some angulation.


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## Tennessee

WateryTart said:


> I see your point. I've also felt the power and athleticism in my moderately angulated dog with plenty of "rear drive" propelling her forward, so I am not sure I can fully agree with you that it is useless. On the other hand, it seems like we share the opinion that moderate doesn't hurt anything. Regardless, I really appreciate you taking the time to go into more depth. It does give me a better understanding of where you're coming from, and it makes sense to me.
> 
> I do agree that moderation in structure is key, and I've seen some younger ASL dogs that have beautiful angulation while not being exaggerated. I appreciate the breeders who are moving away from extremes in that regard: setting the more moderate target. The gait may not be the only way to move all day long, but a GSD in a fluid trot is a beautiful sight.


 
Sounds like we're on the same page :grin2:


I get extremely upset about the roach back and I love GSDs with all my heart. The only breed that comes close for me is a nice English line Lab for the duck blind. 


So, my apologies if I came on a little strong. :frown2:


----------



## kimbale

Whiteshepherds said:


> In depth explanation of croup, angulation etc. and how they affect a dogs movement.
> 
> http://www.louisdonald.com/the-croup-of-the-german-shepherd-dog.html - The German Shepherd Dog


Yes! I love Louis Donald! His stuff is excellent!


----------



## WateryTart

Tennessee said:


> Sounds like we're on the same page :grin2:
> 
> 
> I get extremely upset about the roach back and I love GSDs with all my heart. The only breed that comes close for me is a nice English line Lab for the duck blind.
> 
> 
> So, my apologies if I came on a little strong. :frown2:


HAHA no worries. People in real life have come on far, far stronger. This was mild. But it was also my opportunity to ask and understand (also because I was pretty sure you wouldn't berate me for even having the breed, which is not useful or informative).

I dislike the roach back also. It is not aesthetically pleasing to me.

I probably appreciate the look of more angulation more than you do - I get that impression - but nor do I think the extreme is an ideal. So we can talk.


----------



## kimbale

Tennessee said:


> Sounds like we're on the same page :grin2:
> 
> 
> I get extremely upset about the roach back and I love GSDs with all my heart. The only breed that comes close for me is a nice English line Lab for the duck blind.
> 
> 
> So, my apologies if I came on a little strong. :frown2:


A point of clarification, a roach back is not the same as an angulated topline. A roach back is bad and should not be bred for.


----------



## WateryTart

kimbale said:


> A point of clarification, a roach back is not the same as an angulated topline. A roach back is bad and should not be bred for.


I did wonder where the roach came in but assumed that was mentioned in an earlier section of the thread I didn't bother to read.


----------



## kimbale

WateryTart said:


> I did wonder where the roach came in but assumed that was mentioned in an earlier section of the thread I didn't bother to read.


Probably right. I can't stand the roach back. Looks ugly and is not good for the dog.


----------



## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> Timmy bösen Nachbarschaft was also used and behind quite a few popular dogs yet he looked like he wanted to bolt during the H&B and guarding when at the BSP. What did breeders see in him that they were still willing to use him? Obviously there were breeders that saw past the performance at the BSP, saw the dog in training and felt he would contribute to their program. Without him we would not have had Nick. If you are a member of workingdogs.eu there are videos of him in the two BSP her participated.
> 
> I actually saw that same behavior from some Lord sons and grandsons, but he also brought exceptional hunt drive and health. Was this a nerve issue or a lack of fight drive/active aggression? My next breeding will bring in Lord (though he is a ways back) to bring in a slightly different line and to maintain the high hunt drive I want in my dogs.


Watching Timmy, one thing I would wonder is what created that in the time between his 99 score. You still see a lot of the same qualities of the dog in the 2 videos, but I'd like to ask someone who would know if they thought it was from training that was trying to clean something up? A dog getting harder to control at 4? Just nerves not holding up by that time? Same thing with Lord, I'd like to have been sitting with the Judge that said he was the best dog ever from East Germany to hear what he thought of that.


----------



## Tennessee

WateryTart said:


> I did wonder where the roach came in but assumed that was mentioned in an earlier section of the thread I didn't bother to read.



It's a train of thought and process of normalization, roach back didn't happen overnight. 

And I was challenging those two things that lead to the original statement I responded to, "...straight back is not a good thing!..."


----------



## cliffson1

wolfstraum said:


> Further to Cliffs comments on Lord...
> 
> First, I am assuming his reference to a program in Delaware was the kennel name von der Polizie....2 female law enforcement officers - and they moved to Maryland .....I know them and the dogs they produced were strong working dogs and they bred for police work and SAR. They used Alk and loved what he produced for them, especially with daughters of their male who was linebred on Nessel, Yago v d Polizie (by Pirol Enclavenhof and 2-2 on Nessel). My first Sch3 dog was a daughter of Alk from a Yago daughter who was 4-4 on Lord - and reported by many to be the "best Alk I (they) ever saw" - which Alk's owner reported back to me! Her dam was from the von der polizie program and not owned by Greg, but she carried his kennel name. My female, Kyra was 2,5-5 on Lord. Absolutely flawless nerves, real prey but not so much toy prey, strong strong hunt drive and tracking talent, not so hot biddability - this little bit of attitude LOL - she did what you asked, just not quite as enthusiastically as you'd like ....definitely not a "sport" type dog - went through the motions in the blind search but obedient - as soon as it got serious - ie the escape bite, she became very strong in protection - we did 6? 8? Sch3, scores from 90-96, a couple HIT - including one trial where we were the only passing entry - tracking field under water, and she was the only dog to pass tracking....even losing one article that either sank or floated away as the tracklayer could not find it....
> 
> At this point, she is the basis of my breeding program. I had only one litter with her - due to the unpopularity of Alk among sport people I did not pursue breedings with her after the male I chose to pair her with became unfertile. Her one litter produced 2 certified SAR dogs - one passed at 12.5 years old, 1 male Sch2 - gorgeous gorgeous male lost young due to stupidity, 1 state police narcotics/patrol dog (also SAR) - passed at 12 years old, 1 female companion dog, and my Csabre, both of whom are alive and physically sound for 13 years, 8 months old!!!! Csabre produced 2 litters, with several titled dogs, including an HGH, and now her grandget from the HGH are working in sport and are very very nice working dogs. Two other grandget litters are too young - but a couple are starting tracking and showing good potential. There have been NO health issues - no backs, no bad elbows or severe dysplasia, no allergies, no EPI, no DM - just generally healthy dogs with good longevity.
> 
> Interestingly - even this far down the road, every one of these dogs who has been worked in front of or with LE officers, has generated offers for them....even females. They are still not high prey, typical sport dogs, and I have endeavored to keep them that way. When Koermeister Wilfried Scheld did my first koer with Kyra - he pointed at Lord in the pedigree and said - and I quote "*the BEST dog to ever come out of East Germany"* He also cautioned me to breed her to no dogs with Fero and to pursue a line free of Fero with her and her progeny. Alas, this has become nearly impossible and I am cautious of every new male's genetics for what health or temperament flaws it can bring into this family.
> 
> Schutzhund today is not the same as it was in Lord's time and neither are the dogs people are striving to breed for the sport.
> 
> 
> Lee


Lee, yes I was talking about Sue Coppola and her breeding problem. 
Hey, many people today would think that Lord was mediocre dog, and he is by the sport standard of today. I don't know what Wilfred Scheld's opinion on Lord comes from....maybe he saw a good video! I will say this he got a lot of breedings during his lifetime...shrug/fact. 
Personally, if I wanted to compete in IPO, he is not a dog that I would want my dogs linebred on....again shrug!
In the past three years, I have had three dogs ( Czech) that came to me from top sport trainer with very uncommitted bitework. They had been worked and evaluated in prey and they were primarily stronger in defense. In all three cases, in one year I had these dogs biting very hard consistently. One of the three dogs went back to former trainer, and the trainer told the owner he is frankly surprised at his bitework now....shrug....can't fit round peg in square slot.


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## CanineGSDs

I am not a breeder. But I have owned this breed for almost 30 years. I do compete and title in SchH III. What I look for in a breeder is one who has both parents health/genetic tested and certified. This isn't an ok by their vet. I want to see titled parents. I want to see that they are members of the Kennel/Breed Club. I want to see that the parents have been TT. I want to see those sold as pets to be on a s/n contract. I want to see that if the owner can't keep it that the pup/dog is returned. I may be missing a few things, brain isn't working to well. Haha

Just wanted to say that I am Canadian and all my dogs have been fixed.


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## WateryTart

Tennessee said:


> It's a train of thought and process of normalization, roach back didn't happen overnight.
> 
> And I was challenging those two things that lead to the original statement I responded to, "...straight back is not a good thing!..."


Oh. I meant came into the conversation. I skipped like 4 or 5 pages in the middle of the thread so I assume it was mentioned there.


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## holland

CanineGSDs said:


> I am not a breeder. But I have owned this breed for almost 30 years. I do compete and title in SchH III. What I look for in a breeder is one who has both parents health/genetic tested and certified. This isn't an ok by their vet. I want to see titled parents. I want to see that they are members of the Kennel/Breed Club. I want to see that the parents have been TT. I want to see those sold as pets to be on a s/n contract. I want to see that if the owner can't keep it that the pup/dog is returned. I may be missing a few things, brain isn't working to well. Haha
> 
> Just wanted to say that I am Canadian and all my dogs have been fixed.


Is being Canadian and having your dog fixed related somehow?


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## WateryTart

holland said:


> Is being Canadian and having your dog fixed related somehow?


Legislation/ordinance or political/cultural climate surrounding alteration? That's all I've got.


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## onyx'girl

Tennessee said:


> It's a train of thought and process of normalization, roach back didn't happen overnight.
> 
> And I was challenging those two things that lead to the original statement I responded to, "...straight back is not a good thing!..."


My comment(that you had to 'challenge') was not condoning a roach back, nor extreme angulation. 
The withers should be a bit higher than the rear. When the dog has a straight or higher rear, then there can be problems with athleticism and agile movement. NOTHING I said in my initial post suggested a roach type backbone.


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## lhczth

Steve Strom said:


> Watching Timmy, one thing I would wonder is what created that in the time between his 99 score. You still see a lot of the same qualities of the dog in the 2 videos, but I'd like to ask someone who would know if they thought it was from training that was trying to clean something up? A dog getting harder to control at 4? Just nerves not holding up by that time? Same thing with Lord, I'd like to have been sitting with the Judge that said he was the best dog ever from East Germany to hear what he thought of that.


I know Timmy was not used much and was sold to Brazil at a fairly young age. He was a very different dog than his brother Troll who ended up being the dog most used.


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## selzer

kimbale said:


> Yeah, far from crying.
> 
> My point about wolves (and any wild canine) is that they do not make for good comparisons. It's basically like comparing a human to an ape. Wildly different purposes, environments, requirements, etc.
> 
> Comparing the GSD to other herding dogs is a far more valid argument. The GSD absolutely has the most angulation of any herding breed, that said there are other herding breeds that do have a bit because of the length of their back legs as compared to their front legs. The Belgian Tervuren is one. Like I said, it's not nearly as pronounced, but it's there (particularly when you stack them like you would a GSD). At the end of the day, this is just the way that the GSD breed went and it has proven to be helpful in their job without any adverse health issues. I'm not saying it's a requirement for herding dogs or dogs that weave and dart, so don't misinterpret my message. What I am saying is that, in the GSD, there is a legitimate reason behind some angulation.


Hang on, I agree with almost everything, but humans are not the same species as apes. Some of us do not believe that we are related at all. Wolves and dogs are just domestic and wild varieties of the same critter. I think they used to classify wolves canis lupis, and dogs canis familiaris. Then I think they made one a sub-species. Someone told me that now they are considered the same species, not just the same genus, which is kind of weird because wolves go into heat just once a year, and there are some other differences. Ah well. Humans are not apes.


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## kimbale

selzer said:


> Hang on, I agree with almost everything, but humans are not the same species as apes. Some of us do not believe that we are related at all. Wolves and dogs are just domestic and wild varieties of the same critter. I think they used to classify wolves canis lupis, and dogs canis familiaris. Then I think they made one a sub-species. Someone told me that now they are considered the same species, not just the same genus, which is kind of weird because wolves go into heat just once a year, and there are some other differences. Ah well. Humans are not apes.


Not saying humans are apes, but humans and apes evolved from a shared ancestor. Same goes for dogs and wolves, shared ancestor (the wolf of today is different than the wolf that was originally domesticated by humans and new evidence is pointing to the fact that the dog didn't even evolve from the wolf but a shared ancestor between the two.) That said, dogs and wolves are much much closer in relation than humans and apes, but it's the same general premise. 

A better comparison would probably be housecat to serval (or lion, but that's a more distant relation).

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## selzer

kimbale said:


> N*ot saying humans are apes, but humans and apes evolved from a shared ancestor.* Same goes for dogs and wolves, shared ancestor (the wolf of today is different than the wolf that was originally domesticated by humans and new evidence is pointing to the fact that the dog didn't even evolve from the wolf but a shared ancestor between the two.) That said, dogs and wolves are much much closer in relation than humans and apes, but it's the same general premise.
> 
> A better comparison would probably be housecat to serval (or lion, but that's a more distant relation).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


Not everyone believes this. I don't.


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## kimbale

selzer said:


> Not everyone believes this. I don't.


You don't have to believe it, although the evidence is fairly overwhelming. I don't have any stake in, or care, whether you believe it or not. I was drawing a scientific comparison. 

I don't want this to turn into a debate over evolutionary theory, since that's a pretty big tangent from the original subject of the thread.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## selzer

kimbale said:


> You don't have to believe it, although the evidence is fairly overwhelming. I don't have any stake in, or care, whether you believe it or not. I was drawing a scientific comparison.
> 
> I don't want this to turn into a debate over evolutionary theory, since that's a pretty big tangent from the original subject of the thread.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


I think the evidence is quite overwhelmingly against the theory of evolution when it comes to humans being descendent from the same creature that apes descended from. As for scientific, well, they have made a whole lot of changes in science books over the years, even in my lifespan.


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## Hineni7

^^agreed!! There are many things that are close to another with little to no relation... Margarine is like one molecule off of plastic but it didn't descend or evolve from plastic... 

Domestic anything will have some dramatic differences then their wild counterparts... And whenever humans have a vision of what beauty is expect more differences... Just because..


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## kimbale

selzer said:


> I think the evidence is quite overwhelmingly against the theory of evolution when it comes to humans being descendent from the same creature that apes descended from. As for scientific, well, they have made a whole lot of changes in science books over the years, even in my lifespan.


That's fine. Like I said, I have zero stake in what you or anyone else thinks or believes when it comes to evolution. I have my thoughts based on my educational background and you have yours. Namaste.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## selzer

kimbale said:


> That's fine. Like I said, I have zero stake in what you or anyone else thinks or believes when it comes to evolution. I have my thoughts based on my educational background and you have yours. Namaste.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


And I was just pointing out that your analogy was not only far different than wolves and dogs, but also something not everyone believes. Shalom.


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> Lee, yes I was talking about Sue Coppola and her breeding problem.
> Hey, many people today would think that Lord was mediocre dog, and he is by the sport standard of today. I don't know what Wilfred Scheld's opinion on Lord comes from....maybe he saw a good video! I will say this he got a lot of breedings during his lifetime...shrug/fact.


Herr Scheld told me he had personally seen and knew Lord.....remember, he was a top koermeister and head herding judge of the SV for many years.....I showed and koered under him quite a few times and was able to have conversations with him after the shows over drinks usually as well.


I agree that these dogs get bored with the routine...it is obedience and not real to them...my female did blinds out of obedience...and until there was some action, she was going through the motions....here is where complementary and compensatory factors come into breeding decisions.

Lee


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## cliffson1

Lee, I knew Scheld probably saw him....was just being tongue in cheek. I thoroughly get why people would draw the conclusions they do from that video:smile2:.
Unfortunately, ( or fortunately) I very seldom look at videos anymore. They all seem pretty much the same to be.


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## holland

I have an Alk granddaughter -I guess her mother wasn't the best from Alk according to someone who is probably important but what I am wondering is if a stud produced the best and the other ones weren't very good would you really want to use him for breeding at all....


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## Vandal1979

I read a few of the earlier responses concerning the video and I simply wanted to say this about it.
First, it was the 1970's. The sport, the purpose of the sport etc were vastly different from today. Training was not at all the same and the sleeve had ZERO to do with anything the dog was interested in. It was simply worn to protect the agitator, as were the heavily padded pants they used to wear. They wore those things to protect themselves from dog bites...... I realize that doesn't even occur to people nowadays when they discuss "protection work" but it was the case back then. lol. 
Again, the dog had ZERO obsession with the sleeve. They were going in that blind to take on a bad guy, (not a semi-friendly "sparring partner" or someone tossing things out for them to chase after they were electronically stimulated to bark. The agitator would sometimes hurt them with the reed stick, etc. Therefore, the dogs were not experiencing the euphoric feeling of safety that they do today. 
Also, lots of trainers made the mistake of creating reactive dogs. The agitator would start the fight with the dog and when they weren't doing much, the dogs wouldn't be as interested. I saw that happen quite a bit. Some handlers were quite hard on the dogs in obedience as well. Obedience can have a dramatic affect of fight drive....so...no telling what went on with Lord there but it could have been many things that had nothing to do with the quality of dog he was. 

Also, the dogs were allowed to circle the blind. Some of us made sure not to train our dogs that way but others didn't. And last, the East German dogs were trained WAY different that what the west and the rest of us were doing. I purchased two East German dogs in the 80's for police. I kept one and we were all fascinated by the dog's behavior when we worked him in protection. Very high bites toward the shoulder etc. and quite serious about what he was doing out there. No one was teaching dogs how to drag the helper around back then so the "grip" looked good etc. It has way less to do with "cosmetics" as far as training went. 
So, the opinions expressed by people who have NO idea what was going on back then....even of they think they do.....usually results in just completely inaccurate descriptions. People are watching it out of context trying to compare to what goes on now. You can't. 
I doubt the dog lacked fight drive....some of the more serious types of dogs can be quite easy to make reactive...and I am not talking about reactive the way most people use it on this board. I mean the dog will wait for the helper to start the fight. Again apples to potatoes...it's not even in the same food group as far as comparing things.


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## Emoore

I realize I'm super late to the party here but I wanted to say something about EPI. My dog has mild EPI, which means I have to add powdered enzymes to his food for the rest of his life. That's it. He also has a rock-solid temperament, is great with kids even though he didn't meet his first kid until he was 2, is naturally biddable, protective when needed while still being perfectly open to strangers I approve of, and generally all-around the best **** dog I've ever owned or met. My last dog died of DM, which meant that we had 12 good years and then the last 4 months he needed help getting around. Those were 4 sucky months but we're all going to die of something. 

I'm not a breeder and my dog is neutered, but if we eliminate from breeding all the dogs that have or have produced EPI, all the dogs that have or have produced HD, that have or have produced DM, that have or have produced allergies, that have or have produced bloat. . . . . pretty soon there will be no German Shepherds left. 

I think a lot of people get hung up on health issues like this because they're black or white whereas temperament and stability are muzzy concepts. It's easy to say, "they bred a dog that has produced EPI. Bad breeder." It's a lot harder to actually evaluate dogs. As a puppy buyer I'd rather buy from lines with amazing nerves and temperament but the occasional liveable health problem, than one with stellar health and so-so temperament. Granted the best would be if breeders could magically produce dogs with amazing nerves, solid temperament, that are never sick a day in their lives and die in their sleep at 15. But if we only bred those dogs to each other, it wouldn't last long because they'd all be inbred in 3 generations.


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## Vandal1979

I agree about only breeding for health. I think people are being pulled down the 'genetic testing of everything' route and it actually is not good for the breed. We see that with the obsession about hips and now it is turning to testing for DM. Even though the test is controversial and there are questions about it's accuracy, more and more breeders sign on so they won't be singled out by the ignorant masses. I remember one woman ranting on the internet about how she planned to become a breeder who would improve longevity in the breed. Sure, breed a healthy dog that lives a long life but you better produce dogs that people will want to live with that long and sadly, many people are not. 

I really feel like the follower types have no business breeding dogs. You do have to stand up for what you think is right. Stick to breeding GSDs first and resist producing dogs that fit the latest fashion. Just too many egos involved in breeding now and very few real "dog people". Most people involved in the sport couldn't tell you the first thing about DOGS but they can tell you how to operate electronic equipment, how to teach a dog to leap with the wedge and follow a ball in their armpit. None of that has a thing to do with breeding good GSDs and much of it is harmful when dogs trained that way, win.


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> The problem with calling it a play pretend exercise is that things were very different in how the dogs were trained back then. The helpers were not their play buddies and there was often a lot of conflict with the handler. A dog with social aggression/fight drive would have not been bored. That would have been far more common in a prey based dog or a dog that lacks fight drive. Since I don't see Lord as producing weak nerves or him getting used like he did if he had weak nerves, then I would say it is more a lack of fight drive/social aggression. This is also what I saw in the kids I was around. Maybe it was just the cross that produced these dogs.


Hey Lisa, you're wrong.


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## Jack's Dad

Emoore said:


> I realize I'm super late to the party here but I wanted to say something about EPI. My dog has mild EPI, which means I have to add powdered enzymes to his food for the rest of his life. That's it. He also has a rock-solid temperament, is great with kids even though he didn't meet his first kid until he was 2, is naturally biddable, protective when needed while still being perfectly open to strangers I approve of, and generally all-around the best **** dog I've ever owned or met. My last dog died of DM, which meant that we had 12 good years and then the last 4 months he needed help getting around. Those were 4 sucky months but we're all going to die of something.
> 
> I'm not a breeder and my dog is neutered, but if we eliminate from breeding all the dogs that have or have produced EPI, all the dogs that have or have produced HD, that have or have produced DM, that have or have produced allergies, that have or have produced bloat. . . . . pretty soon there will be no German Shepherds left.
> 
> I think a lot of people get hung up on health issues like this because they're black or white whereas temperament and stability are muzzy concepts. It's easy to say, "they bred a dog that has produced EPI. Bad breeder." It's a lot harder to actually evaluate dogs. As a puppy buyer I'd rather buy from lines with amazing nerves and temperament but the occasional liveable health problem, than one with stellar health and so-so temperament. Granted the best would be if breeders could magically produce dogs with amazing nerves, solid temperament, that are never sick a day in their lives and die in their sleep at 15. But if we only bred those dogs to each other, it wouldn't last long because they'd all be inbred in 3 generations.


 Agree completely Emoore. Nice post.


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## Vandal1979

"Hey Lisa, you're wrong."

Not necessarily. Anyone who knows anything about dogs understands that each dog has their own levels of certain drives /instincts. The East German dogs were notorious for being soft in obedience and also for maturing at a very slow rate. 
Active aggression is not seen in puppies and develops as the dog matures.
Again, the East German dogs matured at a much slower rate than the West German dogs did. Therefore, it is possible some of these dogs were started in defense (reactive), because the active aggression had not appeared at the time protection work was started. Back then, as I also already talked about , it was quite common for dogs to be ruined by helpers continuing to push the defense button in the dog. So, it would not surprise me in the least if Lord had been worked in a similar fashion. And with those dogs, it might've been more justified because how much time do you have to wait? Those dogs were ridiculous in how slow they grew out of being puppies. 
Also, as I said earlier, obedience can take away the fight drive. So, there could've been a number of factors involved there where everyone is correct to a degree. 

Lee mentioned her female who seemed to be showing similar traits to Lord. The problem with obedience... that sensitivity and softness I'm talking about, can also show itself as "stubbornness". Comes from the same place in the dog. 

So what Lisa is saying is not incorrect in her observation of the dog. But there could be a number of reasons for it and it does not necessarily mean the dog did not, later on, display social aggression.
Back then I, along with a number of other people, felt that adding East German blood was something you did in small doses and only with the right types of dogs.


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## Sabis mom

Vandal1979 said:


> I read a few of the earlier responses concerning the video and I simply wanted to say this about it.
> First, it was the 1970's. The sport, the purpose of the sport etc were vastly different from today. Training was not at all the same and the sleeve had ZERO to do with anything the dog was interested in. It was simply worn to protect the agitator, as were the heavily padded pants they used to wear. They wore those things to protect themselves from dog bites...... I realize that doesn't even occur to people nowadays when they discuss "protection work" but it was the case back then. lol.
> Again, the dog had ZERO obsession with the sleeve. They were going in that blind to take on a bad guy, (not a semi-friendly "sparring partner" or someone tossing things out for them to chase after they were electronically stimulated to bark. The agitator would sometimes hurt them with the reed stick, etc. Therefore, the dogs were not experiencing the euphoric feeling of safety that they do today.
> Also, lots of trainers made the mistake of creating reactive dogs. The agitator would start the fight with the dog and when they weren't doing much, the dogs wouldn't be as interested. I saw that happen quite a bit. Some handlers were quite hard on the dogs in obedience as well. Obedience can have a dramatic affect of fight drive....so...no telling what went on with Lord there but it could have been many things that had nothing to do with the quality of dog he was.
> 
> Also, the dogs were allowed to circle the blind. Some of us made sure not to train our dogs that way but others didn't. And last, the East German dogs were trained WAY different that what the west and the rest of us were doing. I purchased two East German dogs in the 80's for police. I kept one and we were all fascinated by the dog's behavior when we worked him in protection. Very high bites toward the shoulder etc. and quite serious about what he was doing out there. No one was teaching dogs how to drag the helper around back then so the "grip" looked good etc. It has way less to do with "cosmetics" as far as training went.
> So, the opinions expressed by people who have NO idea what was going on back then....even of they think they do.....usually results in just completely inaccurate descriptions. People are watching it out of context trying to compare to what goes on now. You can't.
> I doubt the dog lacked fight drive....some of the more serious types of dogs can be quite easy to make reactive...and I am not talking about reactive the way most people use it on this board. I mean the dog will wait for the helper to start the fight. Again apples to potatoes...it's not even in the same food group as far as comparing things.


Great explanation. But I am curious. My Bud was notorious for circling people and he seemed to do it purely to see if he coyld bait/provoke some reaction. Because he would not start a fight but he sure wouldn't complain if you wanted to start one. Thats what I thought I was seeing in that video. The helper was being very boring and the dog wanted a fight or a challenge.


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## lhczth

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Lisa, you're wrong.


Wouldn't be the first time and it probably won't be the last. If we are never wrong we can never learn and I will never say I know everything. 

Good explanation Vandal.


----------



## gsdsar

cliffson1 said:


> wolfstraum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Further to Cliffs comments on Lord...
> 
> First, I am assuming his reference to a program in Delaware was the kennel name von der Polizie....2 female law enforcement officers - and they moved to Maryland .....I know them and the dogs they produced were strong working dogs and they bred for police work and SAR. They used Alk and loved what he produced for them, especially with daughters of their male who was linebred on Nessel, Yago v d Polizie (by Pirol Enclavenhof and 2-2 on Nessel). My first Sch3 dog was a daughter of Alk from a Yago daughter who was 4-4 on Lord - and reported by many to be the "best Alk I (they) ever saw" - which Alk's owner reported back to me! Her dam was from the von der polizie program and not owned by Greg, but she carried his kennel name. My female, Kyra was 2,5-5 on Lord. Absolutely flawless nerves, real prey but not so much toy prey, strong strong hunt drive and tracking talent, not so hot biddability - this little bit of attitude LOL - she did what you asked, just not quite as enthusiastically as you'd like ....definitely not a "sport" type dog - went through the motions in the blind search but obedient - as soon as it got serious - ie the escape bite, she became very strong in protection - we did 6? 8? Sch3, scores from 90-96, a couple HIT - including one trial where we were the only passing entry - tracking field under water, and she was the only dog to pass tracking....even losing one article that either sank or floated away as the tracklayer could not find it....
> 
> At this point, she is the basis of my breeding program. I had only one litter with her - due to the unpopularity of Alk among sport people I did not pursue breedings with her after the male I chose to pair her with became unfertile. Her one litter produced 2 certified SAR dogs - one passed at 12.5 years old, 1 male Sch2 - gorgeous gorgeous male lost young due to stupidity, 1 state police narcotics/patrol dog (also SAR) - passed at 12 years old, 1 female companion dog, and my Csabre, both of whom are alive and physically sound for 13 years, 8 months old!!!! Csabre produced 2 litters, with several titled dogs, including an HGH, and now her grandget from the HGH are working in sport and are very very nice working dogs. Two other grandget litters are too young - but a couple are starting tracking and showing good potential. There have been NO health issues - no backs, no bad elbows or severe dysplasia, no allergies, no EPI, no DM - just generally healthy dogs with good longevity.
> 
> Interestingly - even this far down the road, every one of these dogs who has been worked in front of or with LE officers, has generated offers for them....even females. They are still not high prey, typical sport dogs, and I have endeavored to keep them that way. When Koermeister Wilfried Scheld did my first koer with Kyra - he pointed at Lord in the pedigree and said - and I quote "*the BEST dog to ever come out of East Germany"* He also cautioned me to breed her to no dogs with Fero and to pursue a line free of Fero with her and her progeny. Alas, this has become nearly impossible and I am cautious of every new male's genetics for what health or temperament flaws it can bring into this family.
> 
> Schutzhund today is not the same as it was in Lord's time and neither are the dogs people are striving to breed for the sport.
> 
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> 
> Lee, yes I was talking about Sue Coppola and her breeding problem.
> Hey, many people today would think that Lord was mediocre dog, and he is by the sport standard of today. I don't know what Wilfred Scheld's opinion on Lord comes from....maybe he saw a good video! I will say this he got a lot of breedings during his lifetime...shrug/fact.
> Personally, if I wanted to compete in IPO, he is not a dog that I would want my dogs linebred on....again shrug!
> In the past three years, I have had three dogs ( Czech) that came to me from top sport trainer with very uncommitted bitework. They had been worked and evaluated in prey and they were primarily stronger in defense. In all three cases, in one year I had these dogs biting very hard consistently. One of the three dogs went back to former trainer, and the trainer told the owner he is frankly surprised at his bitework now....shrug....can't fit round peg in square slot.
Click to expand...

I find this interesting. I had a Sue Coppola dog. He was Lord through Alk. Best SAR dog I have ever had. I have referenced them many times over the years. Mainly as breeders that would not "pass muster" on this board. Ike's dad was an IPO 1, mom had zero titles. But his litter produced 2 LE dog and 3 SAR dogs. And they proved their breeding program over and over again. I am still good friends with them. 

Maybe they are why I don't use titles only to decide on a "worthy" breeding? I don't know. I really put more stock into a consistent and successful breeding program. I like to see bitch lines, I like to know that the breeder really understands why they like a dog and what they want to accomplish. I like to know that breeder has liked and continues to use a proven bitch line.


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## Hineni7

I've really found this thread very interesting and full of great information and personal opinions, which is good, as opinions and beliefs for 'why' are what we have, and help to cement our faith and conclusions. 

I've personally been one to look at more 'real world' results vs show or sport. Not that either of those categories don't play into the whole picture. But if I see a breeder who is continually (provable) having litters that put police dogs, SAR (certified and working, not just in name only ie owners go to one training and have a 'SAR' dog) service dogs, and healthy pet dogs in the world, I am going to be very likely to choose them over a bunch of titled dogs in IPO.. Not because they may be less of a dog or breeders.. But because, in my opinion, the breeder I am choosing is producing the more well rounded dog. Health, genetics, courage, nerves, proper aggression, hunt drives, and that all around intuition and discernment skill set we love about the GSD. 

I am not knowledgeable about bloodlines, so seeing a bunch of titles don't 'prove' to me that the stock is what I'm looking for. But if pups are continually being produced and placed in working environments for SAR, LE, service and pet (which will also include those doing IPO, rally, herding, etc), along with health and longevity, then it is for me, the green light to pursue further. 

I am currently looking for my next SAR puppy. I do trailing and HRD and believe I know what I am looking for in a breeder.. Guess time will tell


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> Wouldn't be the first time and it probably won't be the last. If we are never wrong we can never learn and I will never say I know everything.
> 
> Good explanation Vandal.


Me either. So much is subjective, that's why I have my opinions a lot of the time.



> Most people involved in the sport couldn't tell you the first thing about DOGS but they can tell you how to operate electronic equipment, how to teach a dog to leap with the wedge and follow a ball in their armpit. None of that has a thing to do with breeding good GSDs and much of it is harmful when dogs trained that way, win.


Like these newbies?


----------



## wolfstraum

gsdsar said:


> I find this interesting. I had a Sue Coppola dog. He was Lord through Alk. Best SAR dog I have ever had. I have referenced them many times over the years. Mainly as breeders that would not "pass muster" on this board. Ike's dad was an IPO 1, mom had zero titles. But his litter produced 2 LE dog and 3 SAR dogs. And they proved their breeding program over and over again. I am still good friends with them.
> 
> Maybe they are why I don't use titles only to decide on a "worthy" breeding? I don't know. I really put more stock into a consistent and successful breeding program. I like to see bitch lines, I like to know that the breeder really understands why they like a dog and what they want to accomplish. I like to know that breeder has liked and continues to use a proven bitch line.


Before I got hurt I was training in Baltimore and Sue and Mary (they moved out of DE BTW) would be there occasionally.....Mary wanted a Csabre pup for when she retired Tonka but Csabre did not cooperate. 

They bred to Alk several times, and got many many nice dogs for SAR and LE in a few succeeding generations.....goes back to Vandal's post - current breeding for sport and training is different than what was done in Lord's time.....if your whole experience and priorities are based on points and sport with current training - you won't appreciate the dog balanced in appropriate aggression and real rather than toy prey....when I finally did get another Csabre litter Mary already had a green dog but other LE trainers would have taken a few of those in a heartbeat....got very balanced dogs, an HGH female, males all worked and now another generation on the ground and working - L'Sabre is a rockstar and certified SAR and Naughty - astorvan's female are both the fouth generation of my female family since Alk....who is in the 5th generation now.....

Alk was bred over and over without any discrimination as to whether it was a "good match" and apparently many many were not....so there were many who were not outstanding for 3 phases of sport and his line did not continue in any significant numbers, even though there were many many litters, but I would not trade this line and my female family for any BSP dog out there....I think this type of dog is more the correct/ ideal/golden middle GSD than any work x show cross

Lee


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## cliffson1

Lee, I completely agree. People often don't realize the lens they are evaluating a dog through. Our experiences have a huge effect on our judgement, conversely our non experiences have a huge effect on our judgement. That's why original Sch had three phases in it, so that our evaluation/judgement could see through larger prism of dog's capabilities. That was purpose of this thread, as our prism of evaluation has narrowed in dog selection based on show/sport/health, what eliminates a dog from breeding in breeders eyes? It really is fascinating!
The think the founder realized that the versatility of this breed would lend the breed to be good at scent work....tracking is tested, good at family dog....obedience is tested, good at protection/security/LE....so courage and bitework tested. Maintain strong natural instincts.....HGH test with threat from man.............
I DO NOT believe though, that he ever wanted us to pigeonhole the breed in any one direction at the exclusion of others parts in our breeding programs. I think original Sch was his best attempt to ensure that breeders had good doses of all core traits, so we wouldn't have dogs that have lost any of the the three core traits that comprise Sch or HGH.


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## lhczth

@Steve Strom, I have actually trained with the first dog and seen puppies out of the second. I am trying to remember who the 4th dog is since I probably trained with him at some point.


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## cliffson1

Sorry, the above should say," I think the founder.....
The forum would not let me make changes because I took to long in carefully thinking what to say in my first edit, thus I have to go to principals office for further edit....at my age I would rather just send this clarification :laugh2:.


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## Steve Strom

Most people have probably seen this video of Lord. Looks like pretty basic stuff training the pieces just like today. Until I saw trial video from 1988, I didn't know the crawling was actually a recall exercise from their routines. On that trial video the commentator mentions talking to the handler who's dog circled back and forth, not entering the blind and how many points they lost with one of those my dogs never done that before moments.





I obviously don't have the credibility to say I'm just looking at the dog and not through any view of 2017 trials, but either way, with video and anytime I talk to anyone about what's on video there are a lot of things I say I'd like to have someone that was there explain for me. Lord, Fero, current dogs too. 

The bottom line is there's not unanimous consensus on a lot with dogs, I think breeding even more then training. For everyone saying look at my Porsche, there's someone else looking at that person pushing their Trabant looking for a downhill.


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> @Steve Strom, I have actually trained with the first dog and seen puppies out of the second. I am trying to remember who the 4th dog is since I probably trained with him at some point.


Are they all doing ok? Did they manage to overcome all that possible ruination?


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## cliffson1

Steve, if you find unanimous consensus on anything in dog world....let me in on it. By and large I don't think Lord fits into the dog world you exist in currently, the exception may be Manto v Kalebach(sp). Look him up and what has come through him to now and tell me what you think.


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## Vandal1979

It's as simple as some people having seen this movie before. Many saw where the dogs were headed and tried to warn people. Offered their experience and were met with the same attitudes presented by some people on this board, who are determined to make it all about politics. Try to make a problem between people in order to distract, instead of honesty looking at what just might...or already has.... gone wrong. 

We first saw it with the show dogs. People spoke up only to be insulted by those who were newer to all of it and had been convinced by corrupt judges to disregard what their own eyes were telling them. No one is saying the sport today is not "pretty", we are saying something completely different. We see it in the dog's behavior and like I said previously, much of it doesn't have anything to do with what makes a good GSD. THAT is what SchH was designed to do. Put the genetics of the dogs on display. It was not so much about the trainer's skills at making the dog somewhat appear that way. And while some can see still past the training, in the future...(because the emphasis is more on training and less about the dogs), that will be much more difficult to do for those new to it. 

They changed the GSD standard now and the words "courage, hardness and fighting drive" have been removed. Now it's about "ability to withstand stress", which is simply NOT the same as recognizing courage, hardness and fighting drive...at all. People new to it will never know that description of the dog or how important those things were to the character of a German Shepherd Dog. 

In a couple of years, they will be changing the name of it all. They already eliminated Schutzhund and tried to convince people that it was simply a name change. NO IT WASN'T. IPO existed at the same time SchH did. You could title your dog in both. So, now we can ask,WHY are they changing the name of IPO? Here is MY OPINION. They want it all to have no history. They don't want people talking about it like we are here. No company that has branded their product for over 100 years, would EVER change the name of it....unless they wanted to remove some history associated with their product or discontinue selling it. It would make zero sense for Procter and Gamble to change the name of Clorox, since so many people refer to bleach as their brand. People recognize the name SchH and what it stood for. So, IMO, this is about the people new to all of it. Make that history go away so there won't be any resistance to what they will continue to do to the BREED.
The SV wants it all gone. Where they won't have to put that extra effort into cheating like they do now. Or come up with two different definitions of "pronounced" etc., etc.

And for those who were not involved at the time, here are a couple of videos. You can decide for yourself if anything has been "ruined" by the unrelenting pursuit of extreme: 

This is 1978.





This is 2015:


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## cdwoodcox

So this thread and the thread "more serious lines of GSD's" are probably my two favorite threads I have came across on the forum. Lots of opinions and info. Having a high prey drive female who seems to be the ideal sport dog of today. I want to make my next dog a male, thick boned, big head, dark Sable, less prey driven and more social aggression and fight drive or active aggression. Obviously prey drive will still be in there also. And if you define handler sensitivity as being sensitive to handler corrections than I wouldn't mind a dash of that. Confident, family friendly. I could go on and on but you get the drift. Some of what I want is probably contradictory with each other but with the right dose of everything I don't see why it wouldn't work.


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## wolfstraum

cdwoodcox said:


> So this thread and the thread "more serious lines of GSD's" are probably my two favorite threads I have came across on the forum. Lots of opinions and info. Having a high prey drive female who seems to be the ideal sport dog of today. I want to make my next dog a male, thick boned, big head, dark Sable, less prey driven and more social aggression and fight drive or active aggression. Obviously prey drive will still be in there also. And if you define handler sensitivity as being sensitive to handler corrections than I wouldn't mind a dash of that. Confident, family friendly. I could go on and on but you get the drift. Some of what I want is probably contradictory with each other but with the right dose of everything I don't see why it wouldn't work.



You are describing my K litter males......could be darker sable....and 2 of the 3 have a bit more ball drive than the 3rd....but all natural trackers and very very biddable....good with kids and small dogs and cats too! Oh - and they have a big dose of Lord in the background.....


Lee


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## Nigel

Vandal1979 said:


> It's as simple as some people having seen this movie before. Many saw where the dogs were headed and tried to warn people. Offered their experience and were met with the same attitudes presented by some people on this board, who are determined to make it all about politics. Try to make a problem between people in order to distract, instead of honesty looking at what just might...or already has.... gone wrong.
> 
> We first saw it with the show dogs. People spoke up only to be insulted by those who were newer to all of it and had been convinced by corrupt judges to disregard what their own eyes were telling them. No one is saying the sport today is not "pretty", we are saying something completely different. We see it in the dog's behavior and like I said previously, much of it doesn't have anything to do with what makes a good GSD. THAT is what SchH was designed to do. Put the genetics of the dogs on display. It was not so much about the trainer's skills at making the dog somewhat appear that way. And while some can see still past the training, in the future...(because the emphasis is more on training and less about the dogs), that will be much more difficult to do for those new to it.
> 
> They changed the GSD standard now and the words "courage, hardness and fighting drive" have been removed. Now it's about "ability to withstand stress", which is simply NOT the same as recognizing courage, hardness and fighting drive...at all. People new to it will never know that description of the dog or how important those things were to the character of a German Shepherd Dog.
> 
> In a couple of years, they will be changing the name of it all. They already eliminated Schutzhund and tried to convince people that it was simply a name change. NO IT WASN'T. IPO existed at the same time SchH did. You could title your dog in both. So, now we can ask,WHY are they changing the name of IPO? Here is MY OPINION. They want it all to have no history. They don't want people talking about it like we are here. No company that has branded their product for over 100 years, would EVER change the name of it....unless they wanted to remove some history associated with their product or discontinue selling it. It would make zero sense for Procter and Gamble to change the name of Clorox, since so many people refer to bleach as their brand. People recognize the name SchH and what it stood for. So, IMO, this is about the people new to all of it. Make that history go away so there won't be any resistance to what they will continue to do to the BREED.
> The SV wants it all gone. Where they won't have to put that extra effort into cheating like they do now. Or come up with two different definitions of "pronounced" etc., etc.
> 
> And for those who were not involved at the time, here are a couple of videos. You can decide for yourself if anything has been "ruined" by the unrelenting pursuit of extreme:
> 
> This is 1978.
> https://youtu.be/Op9tEy1Pafs
> 
> This is 2015:
> https://youtu.be/X3jwKr0Teec


What is the whole point of making all these changes? Is it to water it down and sell more dogs? If so, don't buyers see what's taking place?


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## cdwoodcox

@ vandal1979. I don't think I would choose a dog from any of those videos. Just preference though I guess.


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## cdwoodcox

wolfstraum said:


> You are describing my K litter males......could be darker sable....and 2 of the 3 have a bit more ball drive than the 3rd....but all natural trackers and very very biddable....good with kids and small dogs and cats too! Oh - and they have a big dose of Lord in the background.....
> 
> 
> Lee


 Good then. Now I know a dog like I am looking for is possible. Not knowing much about Genetics or pairings. I kind of thought that a female like my Athena with a dog like a boban would need to be bred to get something like I will want eventually.


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## pam

wolfstraum said:


> You are describing my K litter males......could be darker sable....and 2 of the 3 have a bit more ball drive than the 3rd....but all natural trackers and very very biddable....good with kids and small dogs and cats too! Oh - and they have a big dose of Lord in the background.....
> 
> 
> Lee


I have one of those boys and he is what I have been searching for for many years. Social, absolutely clear with incredible discernment, great tracker, high levels of appropriate aggression, and an absolute dream of a house dog. He is safe to take anywhere but a power house on the protection field. Healthy and gorgeous. And I take no credit for any of those things, but I am holding Lee to a very high standard for my next one!


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## Steve Strom

USCA is working to preserve the character of the German Shepherd. Maybe a couple judges from the past would be helpful.


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## Vandal1979

cdwoodcox said:


> @ vandal1979. I don't think I would choose a dog from any of those videos. Just preference though I guess.



The videos are to demonstrate the damage that has been done to the show line dogs, while the many ignorant and ill informed followers, took up the fight against those trying to stop the destruction. Anyone should be capable of seeing the effortless gait in the dogs from 1978 compared to the dogs struggling to get around the ring in the more recent video. Conformation....CORRECT conformation anyway....is/was important to the working ability of the dogs.

I left out what they did to the temperament and working ability of those dogs. I'm sure there are other videos on this site you can refer to if you want to watch frightened dogs being chased away by the helper.


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## wolfstraum

cdwoodcox said:


> Good then. Now I know a dog like I am looking for is possible. Not knowing much about Genetics or pairings. I kind of thought that a female like my Athena with a dog like a boban would need to be bred to get something like I will want eventually.



OMG no......Boban is not a stable dog who should be reproducing.



Lee


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## cdwoodcox

Vandal1979 said:


> The videos are to demonstrate the damage that has been done to the show line dogs, while the many ignorant and ill informed followers, took up the fight against those trying to stop the destruction. Anyone should be capable of seeing the effortless gait in the dogs from 1978 compared to the dogs struggling to get around the ring in the more recent video. Conformation....CORRECT conformation anyway....is/was important to the working ability of the dogs.
> 
> I left out what they did to the temperament and working ability of those dogs. I'm sure there are other videos on this site you can refer to if you want to watch frightened dogs being chased away by the helper.


 Yes, I have seen some of those other videos. The videos you posted do illustrate what you referenced. But even in the first video I still prefer the working line. That is what I was referring to. I would think that a German Shepherd should be consistent either show or working line. Sure a top show dog may have a gorgeous coat or stunning features but structurally a German Shepherd should be consistent across the lines. But that may be my naivety talking. 
But yes I agree with what you have said through out this thread. Even though I am new to the scene.


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## Vandal1979

cdwoodcox said:


> Yes, I have seen some of those other videos. The videos you posted do illustrate what you referenced. But even in the first video I still prefer the working line. That is what I was referring to. I would think that a German Shepherd should be consistent either show or working line. Sure a top show dog may have a gorgeous coat or stunning features but structurally a German Shepherd should be consistent across the lines. But that may be my naivety talking.
> But yes I agree with what you have said through out this thread. Even though I am new to the scene.





In 1978 it was ONE breed. The most famous dogs that we see behind the working lines of today, were also V and VA rated. Dingo had excellent conformation and was one of the best movers in the history of the breed. Just an FYI.


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## cdwoodcox

wolfstraum said:


> OMG no......Boban is not a stable dog who should be reproducing.
> 
> 
> 
> Lee


 Well that is why I don't breed dogs. Lol. My Athena is on the higher side of prey so a dog on the higher side of serious aggression should make a dog with the best of both worlds balanced out by each other's extreme opposites. Or something on those lines. That was what I was thinking anyway. Not that I was seriously considering any breeding at all.


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## Vandal1979

Nigel said:


> What is the whole point of making all these changes? Is it to water it down and sell more dogs? If so, don't buyers see what's taking place?


Yes. Show dog enthusiasts make up almost 97%...maybe more....of the SV membership. Most of them would rather not bother with the SchH or IPO requirement. There have been many rule changes over the years to make things easier for dogs of lesser temperament and working ability. IMO, that is to appease the large majority of show dog members.

Whenever I talk to people about puppies, they express frustration with the many different types of GSDs nowadays. "Confused" is the word I hear most often. I have had to add working lines to my warnings to them about how to find a good dog, since most would not be happy with temperament that resembles a Malinois. Many GSD breeders are breeding dogs with that kind of excitability, prey drive and yes, handler aggression.

One thing about novice people looking at GSDs now . Almost ALL of them comment on the grotesque structure of the SL dogs. They see it, they don't know exactly what causes it, but they realize something is terribly wrong.


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## cdwoodcox

Vandal1979 said:


> In 1978 it was ONE breed. The most famous dogs that we see behind the working lines of today, were also V and VA rated. Dingo had excellent conformation and was one of the best movers in the history of the breed. Just an FYI.


The dogs in the videos still seem to have a sloped back. Is why I assumed there was a split even back then. Working and show.


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## Steve Strom

wolfstraum said:


> You are describing my K litter males......could be darker sable....and 2 of the 3 have a bit more ball drive than the 3rd....but all natural trackers and very very biddable....good with kids and small dogs and cats too! Oh - and they have a big dose of Lord in the background.....
> 
> 
> Lee


I saw Jagr at the Nationals in Merced. He's a nice dog. What I think really stood out was how he worked with the young lady that owns him. The very nice relationship. About the same age as the K boys, but different pedigree. What was the thought there?


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## Steve Strom

cliffson1 said:


> Steve, if you find unanimous consensus on anything in dog world....let me in on it. By and large I don't think Lord fits into the dog world you exist in currently, the exception may be Manto v Kalebach(sp). Look him up and what has come through him to now and tell me what you think.


I like him. I found a couple Von der Kine dogs I liked too, even the one that did his blind search through the camera mans tent on his way to 6. Hat tip to Lord.


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## cloudpump

So a question. @cliffson1
I feel loyalty to a handler is a genetic trait inherent to the breed. Would you breed a dog/bitch that could be handled by anyone that walks on the field? Or would that be a red flag for you? 
Also, at what point is a gsd too friendly. Should they not have a modicum of human aggression? How civil should a gsd be to be considered good breeding stock? According to the breed standard.


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## wolfstraum

Steve Strom said:


> I saw Jagr at the Nationals in Merced. He's a nice dog. What I think really stood out was how he worked with the young lady that owns him. The very nice relationship. About the same age as the K boys, but different pedigree. What was the thought there?



Thank you.....I am pleased at how the J litter turned out....the other two also look good, but are with people who are not as focused on competition. I knew Nick del Lupo Nero and knew that although he was not as powerful in protection as Chuck (the two dogs are owned by trianing partners - with the owner of Chuck having bought my Furious) Nick was super controllable in obedience and protection....Hexe, who I bred from Basha and a Tom son, was typical of my Ufo line dogs....much higher in prey drive and harder to refine the control in protection....the blend of the two worked fairly well, with Jagr retaining the high drive, but more biddable and able to be worked with more control than his mother and grandmother, but still not quite as controllable as Nick either.....Interestingly - only 3 of Basha's daughters were bred on a very limited basis and all three produced dogs who have been competitive at a National level - Enni (Elsa) produced Archer Traumwolfen, Furious Wolfstraum produced a top competing daughter Ava Starkenhund and has Courage Starkenhund coming along who should be competing and I bred Jagr from Hexe Wolfstraum.

The dogs from Basha and her daughters are more "sporty" than the dogs coming down from Kyra Frohlich Haus (the dog who was 2,5-5 on Lord)...other than the ones bred from Furious, they do not have the same balance in prey and aggression, being heavier in prey/toy drive without the aggression in the other family. While a super dog for competition in the sport - the difference between the K and J males illustrates what we have been talking about here in this thread. IMO, the dogs from Kyra - Csabre are more all around utility dogs - producing LE patrol/narcotic dogs, sport titled dogs, several SAR dogs, AKC competition and the HGH female. And if a K male was in the right hands, I believe they would do extremely well in the sport, but alas, you know what they say about the best laid plans!!


Lee


----------



## cloudpump

wolfstraum said:


> Thank you.....I am pleased at how the J litter turned out....the other two also look good, but are with people who are not as focused on competition. I knew Nick del Lupo Nero and knew that although he was not as powerful in protection as Chuck (the two dogs are owned by trianing partners - with the owner of Chuck having bought my Furious) Nick was super controllable in obedience and protection....Hexe, who I bred from Basha and a Tom son, was typical of my Ufo line dogs....much higher in prey drive and harder to refine the control in protection....the blend of the two worked well, with Jagr retaining the high drive, but more biddable and able to be worked with more control than his mother and grandmother.....Interestingly - only 3 of Basha's daughters were bred on a very limited basis and all three produced dogs who have been competitive at a National level - Enni (Elsa) produced Archer Traumwolfen, Furious Wolfstraum produced a top competing daughter Ava Starkenhund and has Courage Starkenhund coming along who should be competing and Hexe Wolfstraum produced Jagr....
> 
> The dogs from Basha and her daughters are more "sporty" than the dogs coming down from Kyra Frohlich Haus...other than the ones bred from Furious, they do not have the same balance in prey and aggression, being heavier in prey/toy drive without the aggression in the other family. While a super dog for competition in the sport - the difference between the K and J males illustrates what we have been talking about here in this thread. And if a K male was in the right hands, I believe they would do extremely well in the sport, but alas, you know what they say about the best laid plans!!
> 
> 
> Lee


Can you explain what you mean by "sporty"? How would a non "sporty" dog do in, say IPO, when the test is supposed to be a test of the dog? Say a dog that excells​ in police work vs a "sporty" dog. 
Do you feel that dogs are being bred to be more mal like to be able to co.pete at the same level? Ie. higher prey drive, smaller in build? Should the gsd be a utilitarian type dog that can do it all?


----------



## Steve Strom

wolfstraum said:


> Thank you.....I am pleased at how the J litter turned out....the other two also look good, but are with people who are not as focused on competition. I knew Nick del Lupo Nero and knew that although he was not as powerful in protection as Chuck (the two dogs are owned by trianing partners - with the owner of Chuck having bought my Furious) Nick was super controllable in obedience and protection....Hexe, who I bred from Basha and a Tom son, was typical of my Ufo line dogs....much higher in prey drive and harder to refine the control in protection....the blend of the two worked fairly well, with Jagr retaining the high drive, but more biddable and able to be worked with more control than his mother and grandmother, but still not quite as controllable as Nick either.....Interestingly - only 3 of Basha's daughters were bred on a very limited basis and all three produced dogs who have been competitive at a National level - Enni (Elsa) produced Archer Traumwolfen, Furious Wolfstraum produced a top competing daughter Ava Starkenhund and has Courage Starkenhund coming along who should be competing and I bred Jagr from Hexe Wolfstraum.
> 
> The dogs from Basha and her daughters are more "sporty" than the dogs coming down from Kyra Frohlich Haus (the dog who was 2,5-5 on Lord)...other than the ones bred from Furious, they do not have the same balance in prey and aggression, being heavier in prey/toy drive without the aggression in the other family. While a super dog for competition in the sport - the difference between the K and J males illustrates what we have been talking about here in this thread. IMO, the dogs from Kyra - Csabre are more all around utility dogs - producing LE patrol/narcotic dogs, sport titled dogs, several SAR dogs, AKC competition and the HGH female. And if a K male was in the right hands, I believe they would do extremely well in the sport, but alas, you know what they say about the best laid plans!!
> 
> 
> Lee


So, watching more videos, I can pretty clearly see a lot of what you're talking about. Something I believe is that even back in the eighties there were Nicks and Chucks. The one things that's changed is some of the training but I don't think it ruins the breed. You can still see the difference between Nick and Chuck. I grew up in Oakland in the 60's. There were no German Shepherds I ever saw that were safe with kids, but I know thats not every German Shepherd. There were good dogs and crap dogs. There were good police dogs and crap police dogs like the one that bit me in the head. I'd say the same thing now, just larger numbers because of how many are bred.


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## Hineni7

I had a female Shepherd who was high tug/ball/play drive and very friendly to strangers so they would play with her. I would take her to the ice rink late at night when I played ice hockey (only free ice time), anyhow, I was walking back to my car at about 3am and some guy comes walking towards me across the parking lot.. I didn't see him at first, just heard the most blood curdling growl that force me.. I looked down at my normally sweet girl and she zeroed in on this guy who I then saw.. Her growl actually scared me, thought she was suddenly possessed, lol.. Needless to say, he stopped and walked the other way.. He was dressed in dark clothes, sunglasses and a goodies.. Not up to anything good and my girl knew.. As soon as he was a distance she deemed safe away from me, she resumed her cheerful demeanor.. She did this several times over her 15yrs of life. Her one breeding produced a police dog in Central CA, 2 service dogs for the hearing I. Impaired and a SAR dog that i kept and would have taken to certification if I hadn't moved to a different state. So, too friendly for a GSD? probably, but she also had phenomenal discernment.. Just info tossed into this interesting conversation


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## carmspack

cdwoodcox said:


> @ vandal1979. I don't think I would choose a dog from any of those videos. Just preference though I guess.


1978 video with Dingo was a good video to remind people who have only seen the dogs 0f the 2000s what was .
Can you turn it back --- probably not . At least not without understanding and collective effort.
Is the will there?

I would choose the conformation of 1978 .

Cdwoodcox , you wouldn't. What is your preference . 
It can't come down to preference . 
The mechanics of movement are measurable and to have efficient "ideal" movement you have to stay within a template.


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## carmspack

Vandal1979 said:


> In 1978 it was ONE breed. The most famous dogs that we see behind the working lines of today, were also V and VA rated. Dingo had excellent conformation and was one of the best movers in the history of the breed. Just an FYI.


Oh yes -- Dingo's structure could work -- this would be your tireless trotting dog.

working and show need the same structure . There is one written standard.

is this what we have ? NO .


----------



## cdwoodcox

carmspack said:


> 1978 video with Dingo was a good video to remind people who have only seen the dogs 0f the 2000s what was .
> Can you turn it back --- probably not . At least not without understanding and collective effort.
> Is the will there?
> 
> I would choose the conformation of 1978 .
> 
> Cdwoodcox , you wouldn't. What is your preference .
> It can't come down to preference .
> The mechanics of movement are measurable and to have efficient "ideal" movement you have to stay within a template.


Would I choose 1978 over todays show line. If that were the choices, yes. 
But the German Shepherds I have seen from the early 1900's look like my two German Shepherds sitting beside me. So that is what I mean when I say I prefer neither of the dogs in the videos posted. I'll assume this is the correct dingo. He isn't overly angulated. But he still has more than these early German Shepherds.


----------



## cliffson1

cloudpump said:


> So a question. @cliffson1
> I feel loyalty to a handler is a genetic trait inherent to the breed. Would you breed a dog/bitch that could be handled by anyone that walks on the field? Or would that be a red flag for you?
> Also, at what point is a gsd too friendly. Should they not have a modicum of human aggression? How civil should a gsd be to be considered good breeding stock? According to the breed standard.


This is something that can not be answered as black and white. There are a wide spectrum of temperaments, colors, structures that are acceptable within the breed because of the creation of the breed through 4 different type dogs. That is why GS breeding is always going to be compensatory in nature. In a well bred litter, you could easily have a spectrum of temperaments from seeing eye dogs to police dogs. Which one is correct temperament?.....Both!!!......BUT we must never breed for all the pups to be seeing eye dogs or police dogs. When breeders breed for that type uniformity they lose the versatility that is the signature and legacy of the breed. I call them back yard breeders, because initially they will have good dogs, but they eventually breed into imbalances that cause major health/temperament issues. By that time they are usually so kennel blind,( maybe because they are winning or competing) that they continually make excuses for the increasing number of dogs that have temperament/health weaknesses. Like has replaced objectivity in their breeding decisions. 
Like I said, we must constantly breed for correct versatility in the breed, that allows your breeding to produce the spectrum from the seeing eye dog to the police dog. Both require strong nerve; representative of the breed, and then you have the other pups that will excel in many other endeavors like obedience, SAR, herding, scent work, family/pets, etc.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

@Hineni7 your story could have been about my girl. she genaively likes people, although not like a lab does. She is friendly and tolerant and SUPER stable.

But she too had a handful of moments where her alter ego came out in response to what appeared to be real threats, and she can easily stop a grown man in his tracks. I feel sure she saved my bacon a few times. 

It is a thing to behold.


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## Hineni7

^^  It is a thing to behold! I bet your girl is wondreful..She shocked me the first time, but I was seriously glad she did it.. I can't believe you could read my typo covered comment, lol.. Stupid smartphone changed several words (goodies, should have been goggles/shades/sunglasses - but definitely not goodies, lol!) that changed the story, haha.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Ha ha, a guy with "goodies" potentially way creepier.

My girl is a total hero. One in a million, seems to me. Literally everything I could have ever hoped for in a German Shepherd Dog. And, I feel pretty confident in saying even the toughest critics on here would have said she was a fine example of the breed if you could have seen her working in her heydey.

And, she is gorgeous if I do say so myself...but her age is catching up to her at last altho for a 10 1/2 year old dog she does pretty well for herself, still out competing and this past weekend she had two rally runs which were 1 point shy of a perfect score and she can hardly even see anymore.


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## Hineni7

She is beautiful.. And what makes her even more so is her nature/personality/genetics/...soul that makes her such a wonderful friend, companion, helper, protector, partner, counselor, comedian, teammate and so much more...


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## Thecowboysgirl

She is All of those things Hineni. I am so beyond blessed to have gotten to share my life with her and I really do owe her my life. (her being a retired service dog)...not that she knows or cares what I say about her on here, I still feel I want to congratulate her on her heroics. Her good deeds include curing at least 3 different people of phobic fear of GSDS, one of whom had lost a finger and had nerve damage in her hand from protecting her son from an unstable GSD. My girl was the first one she could stand to be near after maybe a decade of avoiding them and they became friends. There is just no doubting her personality and intention...she will comfort a frightened woman or threaten a dangerous man, equally effectively, and she has never made a mistake in her life about how to act toward different types of people, or in different situations. If I hadn't spend ten years joined at the hip with her, I wouldn't believe a dog like her existed.

So here's to my girl.


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## Hineni7

Here here! That is beautiful tribute to an exceptional girl


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