# Back to raw?



## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Hi all! I've had my dogs off of raw for a little over a month now and I'm not very happy with their condition. My GS/terrier mix in particular. His skin has red patches and small sores in some spots. We're not having a big flea problem, so I don't think it's that; I'm pretty sure it's from the Pro Plan I had them on. 

I saw the vet today with my youngest (12 wk - Rhodesian/pit/lab/maybe cur) and we about had it out over their diet. She gave the full on speech about how kibbles are specifically formulated for everything that a puppy needs and my pup isn't getting what she needs.... Little did she know she was on kibble for over a month and only on cooked chicken and rice for a week for diarrhea. Next time, maybe I should just tell them what they want to hear- Purina.

So, I'm thinking about going back to raw. It's a stretch b/c I have about 100+ lbs of dog to feed and that can get expensive when there's not good access to cheaper meats. It's difficult to provide a variety b/c everything but chicken and pork is expensive. Green tripe is non-existent where I live unless I go to a processor and I don't know any. There's one that was willing to give me free scraps but he's 40+ miles away..... 

Anyway..... I'm on the fence. I love the raw diet, my dogs love it.... The only problem I've had is my GS/terrier mix's stool won't ever really harden up. My Chi does great on it, and the new girl, I've never had on raw, so I don't know. She's being dewormed now and has had diarrhea so I don't know if switching her now is a good idea.

Any thoughts? Advice? Suggestions? Anything?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

A girl and her dog said:


> Hi all! I've had my dogs off of raw for a little over a month now and I'm not very happy with their condition. My GS/terrier mix in particular. His skin has red patches and small sores in some spots. We're not having a big flea problem, so I don't think it's that; I'm pretty sure it's from the Pro Plan I had them on.
> 
> I saw the vet today with my youngest (12 wk - Rhodesian/pit/lab/maybe cur) and we about had it out over their diet. She gave the full on speech about how kibbles are specifically formulated for everything that a puppy needs and my pup isn't getting what she needs.... Little did she know she was on kibble for over a month and only on cooked chicken and rice for a week for diarrhea. Next time, maybe I should just tell them what they want to hear- Purina.
> 
> ...



You seem to already know the answer...

I know what I would do....but I have a bias since I watch my current dog thriving on a raw diet.

SuperG


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

SuperG said:


> You seem to already know the answer...
> 
> I know what I would do....but I have a bias since I watch my current dog thriving on a raw diet.
> 
> SuperG


:blush: You got me! 

I know. I'm totally biased to raw. I've seen the results, I'm happy with them. If money were no object, there wouldn't be a question. Well, that and the amount of work it is compared to lazily scooping some kibble into a bowl a couple of times a day. 

It's just that it can be SO expensive! I know I'd have to do chicken and pork most of the time. Beef, lamb would be major treats. Also, I can't get my hands on green tripe. 

What do you use to supplement these things when you haven't been able to round things out with variety and tripe?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

A girl and her dog said:


> :blush: You got me!
> 
> I know. I'm totally biased to raw. I've seen the results, I'm happy with them. If money were no object, there wouldn't be a question. Well, that and the amount of work it is compared to lazily scooping some kibble into a bowl a couple of times a day.
> 
> ...


I've been lucky as I have access to cheap raw components...but I do give my furry gal some pill made by Nu-Vet..probably a rip off but the ingredients all sound pretty good....

Have no idea where you might be....but I know they ship...but that can get expensive dependent on proximity...I drive to this place..maybe 120 plus miles??

Big Dan's Trucking, Inc | Altura, MN 55910

It's a win/win...it's cheap and I feed my dog good "stuff".

I hope you might find something similar someday nearer to you.


SuperG


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## GSDhistorian (Aug 30, 2014)

The best thing i ever did was go to RAW for my GSD. If your looking to save $, Walmart has 10lb bags of chicken quarters for 7.90, that works to .79 cents a pound, each bag comes with about 9 quarters and 1 quarter per day along with a couple of gizzards and s handful size of veggies is a meal for my female GSD and she is built muscular and solid.


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

GSDhistorian said:


> The best thing i ever did was go to RAW for my GSD. If your looking to save $, Walmart has 10lb bags of chicken quarters for 7.90, that works to .79 cents a pound, each bag comes with about 9 quarters and 1 quarter per day along with a couple of gizzards and s handful size of veggies is a meal for my female GSD and she is built muscular and solid.


Oh wow! I had my GS/mix on two quarters/day plus some organ about every third day. He's under 40#, so just over a pound a day for him. 

I can deal with the price of the chicken, and pork is usually pretty cheap to come by here. Chicken wings get expensive though. I mention that b/c I can get boneless red meats on sale fairly cheap sometimes, but I'd want to throw in a wing for the bone content. 

What veggies do you feed? And thanks for the good info!


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

SuperG, I'm in South Louisiana (where winter doesn't exist so please enjoy the snow for me this year). Not sure if that makes a difference though. I'll look into what you suggested.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

A girl and her dog said:


> SuperG, I'm in South Louisiana (where winter doesn't exist so please enjoy the snow for me this year). Not sure if that makes a difference though. I'll look into what you suggested.


It's too far...but it would be well traveled.

Just being sarcastic here...but shouldn't you be able to get gator pretty cheap??

SuperG


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

SuperG said:


> It's too far...but it would be well traveled.
> 
> Just being sarcastic here...but shouldn't you be able to get gator pretty cheap??
> 
> SuperG


LOL! Nope! Huge fine for poaching and it goes for around $8/lb. My dogs would have to fight me for it though  It's good stuff. 

Tell you what, I'll send you some gator if you send me some buffalo.


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Oh, and did I mention the vet going totally ape sh!t when I mentioned a raw diet? We literally argued about it. She listed off the usual horrors: salmonella, and, and, and, well, it's just bad! And bones! Bones are bad. 

She did push me to pay better attention to the balance in my dogs' diets and to make sure they're getting everything they need. So there is that.... 

Seriously, is there a vitamin out there that I can give them and feel confident about complete nutrition with the raw diet?


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Yeah, corn filler, make sure they get that vitamin (per vet). Kidding... haha

Raw can be expensive but I think it may make up for it in the vet visits. I've only visited the vet twice as he's seemingly healthy and energetic.

As far as the vitamins, I think people make the raw diet sound over complicated. From my perspective it isn't about balancing every meal, but having a balanced diet. I feed a variety of things and usually 4-5lbs a day with a day fast each week. Maybe I'm lazy but I don't give it much thought, other than feeding a variety with estimated proportions of 70-20-10 (meat-organ-bone). Some days will just be meat, others organ and bone. 

I spend more than I need to but it's worked out well so far. I only have one dog to worry about though, hope it works out with yours and you find the right diet.


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## Be&Luna (Nov 25, 2013)

I doubt that even a poor raw diet can be any worse then feeding your dog kibble. Feed whatever you can afford or manage. Supplements may be helpful... But who feeds the dog supplements in the wild?


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Be&Luna said:


> I doubt that even a poor raw diet can be any worse then feeding your dog kibble. Feed whatever you can afford or manage. Supplements may be helpful... But who feeds the dog supplements in the wild?


Thanks for the reassurance here. When I don't have a lot of access to the *recommended* variety, I worry that I'm not giving them all they need. 

I had never given them supplements before and all seemed well, but it gnawed at me that they may need more nutritionally. With that said, they still did WAY better on raw than on even higher quality kibble.


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Sagan said:


> Yeah, corn filler, make sure they get that vitamin (per vet). Kidding... haha
> 
> Raw can be expensive but I think it may make up for it in the vet visits. I've only visited the vet twice as he's seemingly healthy and energetic.
> 
> ...


 I had one vet even tell me that dogs can be vegetarian. Then the one yesterday lecturing me about how pet food companies have years/decades of research behind them and their foods are formulated (she stressed that part) for dogs' nutrition...... I thought my head was going to explode. I think my eyes involuntarily rolled. Hard. So, yeah, I'm going to make sure they get that ground yellow corn. I can't even bring myself to buy them corn on the cob to chew on b/c of the *corn* thing. 

4-5lbs a day?! Wow! how big is your dog? I don't use that much in a day for my three  

Anyway, thanks for the reassurance on the affordability and quality.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Be&Luna said:


> I doubt that even a poor raw diet can be any worse then feeding your dog kibble. Feed whatever you can afford or manage. Supplements may be helpful... But who feeds the dog supplements in the wild?


I don't think this to be true. For one, dogs in the wild have a choice on what to eat, whereas dogs we feed can only eat what we feed and the odd bite of grass on the walk.

My dog was on what I thought was a balanced raw diet, but I am finding that she does better on Orijen. 

She was fed beef organ cubes, boney meat like chicken quarters or lamb briskets, meal like beef/pig cheeks, and even green trip.

Overall, I either did the balancing wrong, or something wrong, even though my raw diet checked all sorts of boxes. 

Though her breath and her smelled better on raw, her overall health and condition is better on kibble.

I'm thinking of doing a combination of raw and kibble. If budget or balanced meals is an issue, maybe this is something to consider. Note, however, that with this approach, some do think that since the 2 digest at different rates, you could have digestive issues. I have not noticed it in my dog.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

A girl and her dog said:


> I had one vet even tell me that dogs can be vegetarian. Then the one yesterday lecturing me about how pet food companies have years/decades of research behind them and their foods are formulated (she stressed that part) for dogs' nutrition...... I thought my head was going to explode. I think my eyes involuntarily rolled. Hard. So, yeah, I'm going to make sure they get that ground yellow corn. I can't even bring myself to buy them corn on the cob to chew on b/c of the *corn* thing.
> 
> 4-5lbs a day?! Wow! how big is your dog? I don't use that much in a day for my three
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the reassurance on the affordability and quality.


Yeah, I don't give much thought to what my vet says about diet. We only had one discussion and she understood that I did my research and left it at that. 

My dog is probably around 85lbs. He's pretty tall and lean though. He comes to work with me everyday and is constantly trotting around so I think he burns through it.


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

After having switched to kibble and back a couple of times, I can really tell the difference in their health. Nonny's coat is in terrible condition right now, dry, dull, thinning, it's just a mess. He did really well with it even though I wasn't able to provide the desired variety. 

I just don't like how my dogs are on kibble. They smell terrible, drink an excessive amount of water to counter the sodium and dryness of the kibble (any kind I've tried), one of them isn't nearly as bright-eyed on kibbles, even high-quality ones. 

I hope I never have to resort to kibbles-n-bits or 'ole roy  But I'd personally rather an unvaried possibly slightly nutrient-deficient raw diet than even a grain-free kibble. 

There is a line of wet food that I like a lot. It's in the little fridge in the dog food isle, but I can't remember the name- Nature's something....? It's pricey for my group, but I can use it from time to time. 

That said, I'd almost prefer canned food except for the dental issues that could arise from not getting their teeth the cleaning and workout they need. Brushing their teeth isn't happening, just not going to fight them for it. 

I do get what you mean about poor diets over all though. If they had done well on any of the kibbles I've tried, I'd do either a mixed diet or wet/dry diet. It really is easier, and for puppies it's easier to free-feed. 

How did you discover that your raw diet was unbalanced? Or was it just a comparison to the Orijen?



marshies said:


> I don't think this to be true. For one, dogs in the wild have a choice on what to eat, whereas dogs we feed can only eat what we feed and the odd bite of grass on the walk.
> 
> My dog was on what I thought was a balanced raw diet, but I am finding that she does better on Orijen.
> 
> ...


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Sagan, that makes sense. Mine aren't as active so the 2-3% of body weight works out for us. Sometimes I'd like to give them more than that as one acts like he's still hungry when he's finished. I may switch to whole chickens and large hunks of meat for him and let him eat till he's full.....


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Okay, made the switch back today. 

Two very happy dogs and one unsure-but-willing pup. The pup caught on and got to business in no time until the others had finished theirs and started sniffing hers. Then she swallowed almost a whole chicken wing whole. Cr&p! She was doing so well, chewing and everything! She barfed it up and ate slower on the next go-round. Except for the two other hunks she barfed up at two hour intervals.... it's okay, she cleaned up behind herself....:wub: I may need to break up the bones for her for a little while. if I do, will she still learn to chew them?


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

A girl and her dog said:


> Sagan, that makes sense. Mine aren't as active so the 2-3% of body weight works out for us. Sometimes I'd like to give them more than that as one acts like he's still hungry when he's finished. I may switch to whole chickens and large hunks of meat for him and let him eat till he's full.....


I don't know if mine has ever been full. I was worried I wasn't feeding enough given how fast he eats his meals. I ended up dropping 2 game hens for him, gone in 5 minutes, another 2, gone in 5 minutes, another 2, gone in 5minutes. I then stopped as I was up to 10-12lbs. 15min later he was on his hind legs at the edge of his tie out trying to get to a stray cat...

I later read it's not uncommon for grey wolves, their closest "wolf" ancestor, to go weeks without food then eat 20+ lbs. in a meal. I think their more resilient creatures than we give them credit for.



A girl and her dog said:


> Okay, made the switch back today.
> 
> Two very happy dogs and one unsure-but-willing pup. The pup caught on and got to business in no time until the others had finished theirs and started sniffing hers. Then she swallowed almost a whole chicken wing whole. Cr&p! She was doing so well, chewing and everything! She barfed it up and ate slower on the next go-round. Except for the two other hunks she barfed up at two hour intervals.... it's okay, she cleaned up behind herself....:wub: I may need to break up the bones for her for a little while. if I do, will she still learn to chew them?


I would probably remove her from your other dogs and let her eat in peace at her own pace. Early on when mine was a pup if I got close he would act hurried and try to swallow large pieces probably thinking they would get taken away.


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## GSDhistorian (Aug 30, 2014)

I hope this helps, it's a video on "how to" RAW prep for a German shepherd with a basic rundown of what to give and how much.. give you a good starting point. I am all for RAW! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHFpKJGNrKA


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I noticed big differences in my three dogs when I switched to raw and they were eating quality kibble and Honest kitchen... The biggest difference was one of my dogs teeth, they went from inflamed nasty yellow with lots of build up and oh the breath could knock you out! Now they're pearly white, gums are normal pink instead of red and build up has been reduced dramatically and this was from the raw diet alone, I did not brush them after I switched to see what would happen. He can yawn right next to me now too and I don't smell a thing.... Their coats became much shinier too and their poops are tiny! I will never go back go kibble. 

You sound like you know what you're doing but I like to reference this guide a lot because it's such a useful resource and I find myself going back to it a lot. I feed prey model raw(what this guide is about) and it does not include any fruit or vegetables... Dog food companies were what started this whole dogs are omnivores thing, no they are opportunistic carnivores and in my opinion do not need it. But I'm also of the opinion do what works best for your dog. 

http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com...88/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.7.pdf


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

My GSD has always had issues with his stool, they improved somewhat on raw but they're never as good as my other dogs(does that make sense? lol!). So I give digestive enzymes and a probiotic to him everyday, I also occasionally give him plain kefir and raw goats milk... If you haven't tried it for your terrier mix then I'd try that first and possibly you might need to up his/her boney meals.

I have trouble finding cheaper meat, I do not have the luck of living near some place like Big Dans though even with shipping to Cali it's still cheaper than buying beef over here. So I end up spending a little more than I did on kibble but for me the benefits are worth it and like another said you potentially save in vet bills in the long run(crossed fingers). If you're on Facebook try joining the raw feeding community group, you may be able to find people in your area who know cheaper sources.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

A girl and her dog said:


> After having switched to kibble and back a couple of times, I can really tell the difference in their health. Nonny's coat is in terrible condition right now, dry, dull, thinning, it's just a mess. He did really well with it even though I wasn't able to provide the desired variety.
> 
> I just don't like how my dogs are on kibble. They smell terrible, drink an excessive amount of water to counter the sodium and dryness of the kibble (any kind I've tried), one of them isn't nearly as bright-eyed on kibbles, even high-quality ones.
> 
> ...


For me, there were pros to each diet.

For raw, the breath and dental health aspect can't be beat. However, on raw, her poops were less consistent, and her weight would fluctuate. 

For Orijen, her overall weight and poop is easier to control. You can use it for training/food toys. But the breath and dog smell is . It's not as bad as some other dogs I've met, but it's just more than when she was on raw.

So for me, it came down to overall weight, consistent poop, and a soundness in mind of balanced nutrition.

I will probably move to kibble + raw shortly, or even prepackaged raw from a reputable source just so I have more control over her diet and ensuring that it is balanced and sufficient.


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Sagan, that's a good idea. I already have to feed one away from the others b/c he gets cranky while eating. If anything in the room moves, he growls. It's ridiculous!


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for the info and reassurance! Love the links, thanks for that too. 

I don't know that my terrier/GS mix will ever have normal poops. I know that his skin, coat, and breath are WAY better on raw, and he just seems to do better overall on it. Seems healthier. And yeah, I try to keep him on bonier meals anyway. He never gets a meal without bone. I may also need to get him some probiotics. 

The puppy will get the hang of it. I think she gobbled her meal again today and she has the runs. She's on a dewormer also, so that may be part of it. I know that they will go through a period of runs, but it still makes me nervous. This one was quite mucussy and STUNK! I thought I had gone nose-blind where poop was concerned until I cleaned that one up. O. M. G. It was this awful burnt/rotten/dead smell. Bacterial? Combo?


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