# Loose leash



## leanne1601 (Oct 6, 2015)

Loose leash training... the bane of my existence. 

My GSD is 2 yrs old and I've had him from a pup. We've been to 3 sets of classes and he really is a pleasure most of the time. 

When comes to walks though he just wants to be up front with the leash tight. He doesnt drag me down the street and he does stop if I stop but he WILL NOT keep the leash loose. I've been working on this since day 1.

I've tried stopping and waiting till the lead is loose he just looks at me and when we start to walk again, he walks straight to the end or the leash to keep the leash tight.

I've tried walking in different directions and as soon as we turn back in the direction of home he's at the end with the leash tight again. 

ONLY if I have the treat bag in sight (or sound) will he loose leash walk... so I know he knows what he should be doing, he just won't do it without food.

I've tried gradually taking food away but as soon as he realises there's no or little food coming, he's not interested. Praise seems to spur him on to walk faster/get to the end if the lead.

Any help with techniques or advice is very welcome! 

I should also add that he doesn't listen to easy commands on walks like sit, down. I usually have to wait a good 10-20 seconds while he just stands there ignoring my existence until he complies. Not sure if this is just an age thing or if I need to increase training sessions.

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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Have you tried a pinch collar? My dog is like yours, forges ahead most of the time. I pop her hard, she comes to heel then forgets about it in short time. It's been my biggest struggle with her. All I can do is keep working on it. I may have to go back to using an e collar for loose leash walking but hate to correct her that much.


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## Solamar (Jan 25, 2017)

A good prong collar, knowing how to properly use it, and consistency should solve this problem rather quickly.

We do an hour of group training every Saturday (with a GSD focused trainer) and a good part of the weekly training is correcting the handlers bad habits. It is flat out amazing to watch your dog do something perfectly when given proper guidance, as opposed to the blank stare when your not communicating correctly.

Almost every week we have someone new show up with a poor quality (chain store) prong collar, frustrated because "it's not working"

Herm Sprenger is the one you want, learn when to use dynamic pressure (pop,pop) vs static pressure (up pressure until your dog sits) etc.

My dog thought she was a sled dog, introduced a prong collar at about 7 months old and she is an absolute pleasure to walk now.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@leanne1601,

You have a couple of things going on. 

First, is opposition reflex. When dogs feel tension on a leash they pull into it. If you allow the leash to become tight, your dog will pull by instinct. You mentioned that you went through three sets of classes, I'm guessing group classes? 

You also wrote:
*I should also add that he doesn't listen to easy commands on walks like sit, down. I usually have to wait a good 10-20 seconds while he just stands there ignoring my existence until he complies. Not sure if this is just an age thing or if I need to increase training sessions.*

This is your other problem. No offense intended, please don't take this the wrong way, but your obedience is really lacking. A dog should be allowed to go 10 - 20 seconds before obeying a simple, basic command like sit. Why would you wait so long? Why not take some enforcement action? 

When my dogs understand a command, like sit, down or come they have 2 seconds to perform that command. If they have not performed the command with in 2 seconds, they are simply being disobedient and need to be made to perform the command. I do not repeat commands, everything is back and white with my dogs. If I say "sit" the dog has to sit with in 2 seconds. There seems to be a lot of grey areas with your dog and you allow him to decide when he is going to obey your commands. 

The upside is the this is very easy to fix. The problem is with you and your training and management. Your dog knows that he really doesn't have to obey your commands in a timely fashion and you tolerate it. You need to up your obedience, get better focus and engagement from your dog and be much more consistent. As I said, this is a very easy thing to accomplish. You really need to take a more proactive approach and make obedience fun for your dog, while instilling firm, fair and consistent rules.


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## Gunnertheterrorist (Jul 15, 2017)

We had to get a trainer and he had us use the prong or pinch collar and pop him and turn around every time he tried to get ahead. We have him sit, then say "heel" and start walking, the moment he gets ahead, pop the collar and turn back around. Keep doing it every time he gets ahead. He explained that they want to go forward so they are pulling and by you turning back it makes them realize that if they don't walk next to you and they get ahead, you are not going forward and go back which is opposite of what they want. We practiced that up and down the street every day and it really worked, he is like a new dog now.


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## leanne1601 (Oct 6, 2015)

I haven't tried a pinch/prong as my trainer is pro positive but I have seriously considered seeking advice off someone who will explain and show me how to use one properly. I know my dog knows what he is supposed to be doing, he just chooses not to do it, which is grounds to use a prong if my research is anything to go off. 

My pro pos trainer told me when he ignores me to wait it out but don't allow him access to anything until he completes the action, only then can he be allowed to move on. However, he cant have access to anything he wants uness he's quick to respond. Clearly this isn't working for him and we need to take another route to success.

When the leash goes tight, I'll stop and he will stop, he'll look at me and when the leash is loose, I'll start to walk again. It only takes a couple of paces for him to make the leash tight again. Some days he's worse than others and some days he's great but is rather the great days out numbered the bad.

No offence taken to any comments.. I definitely agree that I need to up my game. I want him to do what I ask straight away an if that means we need to put more work in then i will do just that. I love my boy to pieces but it seems we both have areas that need improvement (mainly me ha) 

Thanks for offering your advice and letting me know I'm not the only one struggling with loose leash walking!

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## leanne1601 (Oct 6, 2015)

Solamar said:


> A good prong collar, knowing how to properly use it, and consistency should solve this problem rather quickly.
> 
> We do an hour of group training every Saturday (with a GSD focused trainer) and a good part of the weekly training is correcting the handlers bad habits. It is flat out amazing to watch your dog do something perfectly when given proper guidance, as opposed to the blank stare when your not communicating correctly.
> 
> ...


Do you still need the prong or is it something that can be taken away and replaces without a relapse in behaviour? 

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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@leanne1601, you said:

*My pro pos trainer told me when he ignores me to wait it out but don't allow him access to anything until he completes the action, only then can he be allowed to move on. However, he cant have access to anything he wants uness he's quick to respond. Clearly this isn't working for him and we need to take another route to success*

That is really bad training advice. This is why your dog behaves the way he does. I'd suggest finding a trainer that understands how to really train a dog and how to train an owner. 

Skip the pro positive trainers, you don't own a skittish poodle. Find a trainer than can work with you and your dog. It's not all clickers and treats when owning dogs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

As Slam said, there need to be consequences for the dog not obeying the command in a timely fashion. I train exactly the way he does: once the dog knows the command it has 2 seconds to respond. No response it gets corrected!

Yes, you CAN do away with a prong collar once the dog is obeying you consistently. I trained a 3 year old 85 lb. GSD that had never been walked on a leash before with one. Was able to do away with the prong within a month or so. Every so often, he'd forget his manners, so I'd bring it back out again. The change in his behaviour the minute I put it on him was AMAZING! I didn't even need to pop the leash - he'd just become the perfect angel! It was "Oh, oh, my owner means business! I'd better smarten up!"


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## cheffjapman (Jun 8, 2017)

My trainer recommended using a chain (choke) collar. I can tell you that our younger, Arrow, was a NIGHTMARE to walk. I was the only one that could handle her, and even then...I didn't like it. Now, with the chain collar, walks are easy and manageable. It takes a couple of corrections when we first get out the door, but she is quick to adjust and walks loose leash probably 90% of the walk. And this is a dog that 2 months ago would leave your arms feeling like you just did the most intense workout imaginable.

You may have to do a mix of training, our trainer has adjusted our approach with Arrow. After our training sessions, Arrow would sulk/pout for an hour or so. She would just go lay in her crate by herself. So we use a mix of correction and rewards with her. But I would agree with the above posters in saying that you need to change the method.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@cheffjapman,
Why would your dog sulk/pout after a training session?

Sounds like way to much compulsion / force and not anywhere near enough praise and reward. I believe a dog should enjoy training, learning and the whole process. 

I'm going to offer my opinion, for what it's worth and I am not trying to be critical or harsh. For me, choke chains are not the best tool and I haven't used one in 20+ years. Trainers that advocate choke chains, IME often are quick to use the old yank and crank method and make the dog submit to the corrections, rather than teaching the dog how to be correct and earn praise and rewards. I also find trainers that put choke chains on dogs, not saying you, but ones that I know personally, really do not understand the importance of praise and reward. They shut their dogs down and force them to perform simple tasks like heel, sit and down. Crank the dog to heel and make quick turns when it pulls, crank upwards to make the dog sit, crank downwards and step on the leash to teach a dog to down. This is the same as the folks that advocate stimming a dog with an E collar to teach a behavior. The premise is the dog learns to "turn the stim off." This is fine for bird dog trainers that are excellent trainers and can really read their dogs. The guy on internet forums proposing this " E collar stim" is not in the same league or caliber of successful bird dog trainers and it is a big problem for novice pet dog owners that try his approach. Teaching a recall by stimming a dog is just poor training, IMHO. The reason I bring this up is because these approaches are similar in concept. Force (crank, use compulsion) the dog to behave and limit it's options. This causes dogs to shut down and is not a great way to train. 

I need to be clear, compulsion creates avoidance. While compulsion at times is necessary. To much compulsion will cause a dog to shut down and eventually performance suffers, relationship suffers and the dog suffers. Sulking / pouting is a sign of this. 

I believe @Steve Strom said in a recent post that "a dog's perception is it's reality." He was referring to corrections and the temperament of dogs. You may think you are giving your dog a little "pop" on a choke chain, prong, flat collar, etc. But, the dog may perceive it as if the world is ending. A soft correction for one dog may be a severe correction to another dog. 

Trust me, I am not a purely positive trainer. But, what I do with my dogs is 95% positive. I do not correct, compel or force my dog to do a behavior that it does not understand or has not been trained to do. That is simply unfair, and poor training. That is a sure way to erode your relationship with your dog, create conflict and shut the dog down. 

What I have learned over the years is to teach a behavior motivationally. For example it is super easy to teach any dog to sit with out a leash, choke collar or E collar. When I see someone's website recommending a leash pop and E collar stim to make a dog sit, I cringe. I teach the behavior motivationally, then I train the behavior, then I proof the behavior. Once the dog understands the command and can perform it reliably, I up the ante and expect precision and speed. The dog has been taught in a fun motivational way to be correct, fast and precise. Then I proof the behavior and if the dog fails to perform a trained behavior in under 2 seconds, I will make the dog perform that behavior. I do not repeat commands or give second chances. I do not get angry, upset or annoyed. I am simply consistent and the dog realizes that it has to be correct. When the dog is correct, praise and reward at a high, meaningful level always follows. Corrections are designed to stop a behavior immediately and I rarely need to correct more than once. Once the dog is performing properly, my praise and reward immediately follow as well. 

This is what most people do not understand, the importance of praise and reward. If people made training more fun, taught engagement and impulse control, their dogs would never take their eyes off them. I am the most fun thing in the universe to my dogs. I am more fun that squirrels, people, cats, etc. When my dogs are out with me, they only have eyes for me. Even if my dogs do get corrected, and sometimes it may be hard, they immediately bounce back and go right back into a happy, driven state. If my dogs sulked after training, I would change everything. I had to do that back in the late 90's with one hard, high drive, handler aggressive dog that I owned. Hw would avoid me after training for a couple of hours and I realized that things needed to change and they did. 

Just my 2 cents, FWIW


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## cheffjapman (Jun 8, 2017)

Oh, just to clarify, we praise A LOT when we train, but the verbal praise and head scratches just didn't seem to work with Arrow. So she now gets treats thrown into the mix as well. And this change was made after our second session with the trainer...a matter of 10 days. General on the other hand LOVES training. He thinks that getting his ears scratched for doing something is the best thing in the world. We just had to increase our reward for Arrow because she is our sensitive little princess


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

With some dogs, verbal praise and petting is not that rewarding. My Boomer could care less about petting, appreciates verbal praise but really works for his toy. He is motivated by a kong on a rope and will run through fire for it. You really need to find what works best for the dog and use that. I like training with toys and will spend a great deal of time building drive for a toy in dogs that lack prey or toy drive.


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## cheffjapman (Jun 8, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> With some dogs, verbal praise and petting is not that rewarding. My Boomer could care less about petting, appreciates verbal praise but really works for his toy. He is motivated by a kong on a rope and will run through fire for it. You really need to find what works best for the dog and use that. I like training with toys and will spend a great deal of time building drive for a toy in dogs that lack prey or toy drive.




Yep, we discovered that General will "run through fire" for a tennis ball! That was more what my initial post was trying to say. You have to find what works for your dog and use it.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Find a good GSD trainer. A good trainer can read both of you together. My trainer works with Law Enforcement dogs. He helped me specifically with my GSD. Told me to be quiet and stop talking--except for commands. He said I was annoying the dog. Taught me to lightly touch my GSD's back as we heeled--as form of praise. Or touch the side of my dog's head with the back of my hand as praise as he sits in the heel position. My dog loves a light touch. Couldn't tell the commands from all my chatter. And he does better, if I keep an eye on him with the corner of my eye when heeling.

I leaned to do an amped up heel where the dog could jump up at me and be "out of control" with excitement--not just the control heeling.

If my dog got stressed/tired/shut down, the trainer showed me how to put him in the shade in the down position and move away from him and only look at him with the corner of my eye--and leave him alone to regroup. Then, to play with him. Big rule: If my dog doesn't want toy play, he is too stressed out. Stop all training. 

Basically, a good trainer improves the relationship and obedience follows. Best of luck--I can tell that you really care. (I went to a couple of trainers that said they did GSD, but they were no help. Keep searching if you don't think a trainer is actually helping.)


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I remember trying to get my first dog to loose leash walk. Finally at six months of age I went to see a trainer. I was kind of pissed when she took the leash and he walked just as loose and nicely for her as you could ask for. Before I left she put a prong collar on him. Showed me how to fit and use and told me to go home and practice multiple times daily. After making me do it there repeatedly. Me and that dog walked up and down the block a thousand times a day. Until finally I could walk him on a loose leash. But, What I slowly realized out there walking him back and forth was that I was the one that needed the training. The ability to communicate with the dog what I wanted. Once I figured that out the prong came off and I haven't had to use it since. 
Since then I have trained both my Shepherds to walk loose leash with nothing more than a flat collar. 
Toys, food, praise, correction, all of these should be a part of your training regimen. But, if you don't know how to communicate to the dog. None of those things are gonna be effective.


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## griz (Jan 1, 2001)

oh boy, LLW ( AKA loose leash walking) bane of everyone I think  My boy is just shy of 6 mos and its taken a very long time ( 4 mos lol) to get to where we are. I use positive based training, and oh my good lord, it has , at times, taken me 10 mins to go 5 feet. It takes an incredible about of patience and dedication let me tell you. If he pulls he gets lured/directed back into place. Reward marker, treat praise for continued LLW. Repeat, over and over.  I occasionally use a prong but never to correct, i just use it to guide him back into place, and then only when i know hes amped up ( been in the kennel all day). it just helps get the point across his thick Czech head.
I have also worked on leash pressure with him, since about 3.5 mos .Basically you pull in a direction and as soon as he moves to release the pressure, click treat.. Obviously this starts in the home with zero distractions. But transitions to learning to move into the direction of the pulling.We go back, right left forward.

I think popping him with the prong would work too, but this is how i wanted to train him. He's MUCH better post ball play


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## Solamar (Jan 25, 2017)

leanne1601 said:


> Do you still need the prong or is it something that can be taken away and replaces without a relapse in behaviour?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


She's 9 months old now, goes to work with me every day. Flat collar all day at work and on walks around the industrial park, 90% loose leash, but if she sees or smells something really appealing she will pull but realizes her mistake and lets up quickly.

At home we walk on a fairly busy trail system - horses, mtn bikes, lots of dogs. I always have her on the prong collar at the trail, too many distractions. I'm starting to take her to more stores (Home Depot etc), with the prong collar I know she will behave, tap tap and she's looking at me. On a flat leash she sometimes gets overly excited or focused on the wrong things.

If you feel like you need to "crank and yank" you are really mis-using the prong collar. Properly fitted (high and snug) tap, tap gets the message across.


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