# Is this breeder responsible?



## Lobobear44

lengagsds Is this breeder responsible? I have chatted with this breeder and was educated by her breeder thing. So am knowledgeable what makes a responsible breeder. I will visit with her sometime next week not to purchase a puppy just to hang out with her dogs. She has offered me a puppy kindly and also answered my breeder questionnaire thing. Answered truthfully with what responsible breeders do. Although I said perhaps in a few years will consider due to college plans comes up first and after wards. We'll have to see what lies in the future first because we never know the future for certain. If nobody wants a dog anymore returns, her dogs are big and healthy guarranteed, excellent references, great quality, amazing personality, calm and gentle. Although she is slowing down she is not stopping to breed.


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## Saphire

Before I speak to alot of red flags on this breeders website, what are YOU looking for in a GSD?


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## MrsFergione

I'm confused what you're looking for as I had trouble reading your post. You're wanting to know if they are responsible but you do not plan to get a puppy or dog, just hang out with them? There's also a lot of things on the website that would make me shy away too.


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## wolfstraum

sorry - I see someone with a nice line of what every one wants to hear, but with no credentials on dogs to back up the price structure.....a few dogs with West German show lines, bred, their progeny bred, and the bottom lines are pretty much pet breeding with nothing substantial to commend them - other than listings of health testing....ie, a commercial breeder specializing in high priced pets with nothing of substance to justify the prices....you can get dogs from good breeders who show and work their dogs for the same or - GASP!!! - less money....pups from dogs who have won Nationally - not just showed up and placed in the bottom 5 - but WON - and dogs who have competed in World Championships for the US....

The breeder may be a very nice person, she probably loves her dogs.....and I am smacking my own hands not to say a few things....But this is not a breeder I would want to be mentored by, or emulate...

Lee


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## Lobobear44

Saphire said:


> Before I speak to alot of red flags on this breeders website, what are YOU looking for in a GSD?


@Saphire not looking for a dog for now. Just education on breeders responsible and irresponsible. What's so about this breeder? She answered my questionnaire dogs are healthy, great quality, calm, outgoing, etc dogs. Also gets dogs back when ppl can't have them.


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## Lobobear44

wolfstraum said:


> sorry - I see someone with a nice line of what every one wants to hear, but with no credentials on dogs to back up the price structure.....a few dogs with West German show lines, bred, their progeny bred, and the bottom lines are pretty much pet breeding with nothing substantial to commend them - other than listings of health testing....ie, a commercial breeder specializing in high priced pets with nothing of substance to justify the prices....you can get dogs from good breeders who show and work their dogs for the same or - GASP!!! - less money....pups from dogs who have won Nationally - not just showed up and placed in the bottom 5 - but WON - and dogs who have competed in World Championships for the US....
> 
> The breeder may be a very nice person, she probably loves her dogs.....and I am smacking my own hands not to say a few things....But this is not a breeder I would want to be mentored by, or emulate...
> 
> Lee


So she is a byb?


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## wolfstraum

BYB is a broad term and means different things to many people.....but in broad parameters, pretty much - yes, she does cite health testing...but the pedigrees, the goals, etc are not those of a *knowledgeable* breeder....

Lee


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## LeoRose

One thing that is a big red flag for me is that I have a spayed mutt with an iffy temperament who has more titles than the dogs she is breeding from. While a CGC might be the end goal of someone's family pet, I expect much higher titles from breeding stock, be they show championship titles or working titles.


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## Merciel

Forgive me if I'm remembering this incorrectly, but you're a young teenager, right?

So maybe make this a critical thinking exercise. Discount what the breeder says about herself and her own dogs -- just eliminate that entirely from your analysis. Pretend it doesn't exist.

Review the website with a critical eye. Read between the lines. What's there? What _isn't_ there? What words are used to describe these dogs that might be interpreted by some of the people on this board as red flags? Why?

I have never met this breeder and I'm not familiar with her dogs. I know nothing about her program and cannot speak to its merits or deficiencies. But it's clear to me why some of the representations made on the website might meet a cool reception here, and if you take some time to think it over yourself, you should be able to reach the same conclusions quite easily.


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## DaniFani

All her females are bred at 7/8 MONTHS old?! I hate most of her answers, but this one in particular.


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## DaniFani

I've also learned that just because someone has been doing something forever, doesnt mean they know anything. Some think if enough time goes past they get a free pass to be a know it all.


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## boomer11

lol what else do you expect breeders to put on your questionnaire? most breeder will answer your questions with what you want to hear. they're arent going to talk bad about themselves and know all the typical questions that are asked. the really good breeders i find are the ones that will ask you questions. 

everyone gave their advice yet you want to PROVE this is a good breeder. if this is the breeder you want then go with her. for me personally i'd say for 2 grand you could easily find a better and more accomplished breeder. some of those dogs have nice pigmentation and others look like crap. just my honest opinion....

edit: and you cant possibly be talking about the feedback on the website. do you honestly think the breeder would take the time to put bad feedback on her own website?


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## LeoRose

Okay, even more things I don't care for. 

Like Dani, I agree that a bitch on their first season is too young to be bred. They are still babies themselves. 

One "main stud" is the best match for every bitch she breeds? 

She claims she breeds to improve the breed, and that her dogs are capable of doing anything you want to do with them, but doesn't back it up with anything but the absolute lowest level titles. Just about any herding breed can get a HIC, and I know of several mixes of who knows what that were excellent working ranch dogs. A CGC is a basic manners title, that again, just about any dog with a bit of training can pass.


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## Xeph

This is not a breeder I would want to get a puppy from, let alone learn from. So much misinformation in her FAQ. GSDs are SUPPOSED to be aloof. That's one of the reasons I have them. I have one dog that is SUPER friendly, and while he CAN ignore people, he'd rather schmooze if given the option.

I will admit, it annoys me (a lot). But a big part of it could be how he was raised before I got him.

Seven or eight months old when they start reproducing? What is WRONG with this person! The dogs are still PUPPIES, and definitely don't have any health testing done yet. COME ON!


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## wolfy dog

The website is too cutesy and seems for marketing purposes only (puppies singing?) Most of the dogs are so calm that most pictures show dogs lying down.
And it looks likes she provides stud service to anyone who wants it. And she breeds a male that is not full grown yet...


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## marbury

I can't find the female listed as the dam for her current litter on OFA.


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## erfunhouse

All her answers were generic. She breeds at 7-8 months old. She's been breeding for at least 50 years. Assuming she started her kennel at 15, that makes her 65. Nothing against age here, but seriously? BYB all the way. 95-110Lb shepherds? Yet she wants to better the breed???? Moron. 

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## onyx'girl

Maybe the 7-8 month response was when females go into their first heat, I sure hope she wouldn't breed that young. 
Not a fan of the site or anything else....just another person giving this breed more issues.


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## Neko

Lobobear44 said:


> @Saphire not looking for a dog for now. Just education on breeders responsible and irresponsible. What's so about this breeder? She answered my questionnaire dogs are healthy, great quality, calm, outgoing, etc dogs. Also gets dogs back when ppl can't have them.


what proof is there about health besides words? DNA and hip tests? we almost went to a nice breeder who was a kind hearted and know a few people who ended up getting the pups. Sadly a few of the pups died by age 2 from cancer.


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## Neko

How old are the dogs female when they begin breeding? USUALLY ABOUT 7 TO 8 MONTHS

tha means the hips are not tested as that's too early to know....


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## Bane Vom Vox

Great responses from everyone. Couldn't agree more




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## Lobobear44

DaniFani said:


> All her females are bred at 7/8 MONTHS old?! I hate most of her answers, but this one in particular.


@DaniFani

I asked her that myself. She said no she never begins breeding them that young until 2 years old. Says that somewhere on her website. I am though keeping an open minded being wrong. When I go to see her and her dogs will evaluate not out loud though don't want to be rude. Not even at the right time got another dog. Just considering getting one from hers if I find out more truthfully that she is. You also want to know how well they treat dogs too as if dogs are products not someone's. If I can't might just rescue one from a responsible rescue organization anyways. I do volunteer at 4 rescues the dogs are amazing.


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## Neko

My pup is 11 month and he is such a silly puppy still and just started marking territory, she breeds puppies =( so sad poor dogs. the more i think the more I am sad


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## erfunhouse

Just checked out the web site...if I have to read the terms "gentle and sweet" or" exceptional" one more time I'm going to scream. 

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## Lobobear44

erfunhouse said:


> Just checked out the web site...if I have to read the terms "gentle and sweet" or" exceptional" one more time I'm going to scream.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


@erfunhouse
@Neko

What about these others?

German Shepherd Dog Breeder German Shepherd Puppy for Sale

German Shepherd Breeders CA,Puppies For Sale,Dogs,German Shepherd Stud,Training,Protection Dogs-German Shepherds- Home of West Coast German Shepherd Dogs - Videos

Von der Otto German Shepherd Puppy Breeder Texas? Fall Puppy Sale

Certified Dog Trainers & German Shepherd Breeders - Assertive K-9 Training | Thinschmidt German Shepherds

German Shepherd Breeders Puppies Protection Omegashepherds.com

Sharobi's German Shepherd Testimonials

http://www.minternsgermanshepherds.com/ 

Top German Shepherd Breeders - California German Shepherd Breeders

I'm glad I got all these great answers! I will go over there anyways just to make sure hanging out with her dogs might be fun anyways. Then later will say in not rudely but "I decided to go for a rescue."


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## Lobobear44

Xeph said:


> This is not a breeder I would want to get a puppy from, let alone learn from. So much misinformation in her FAQ. GSDs are SUPPOSED to be aloof. That's one of the reasons I have them. I have one dog that is SUPER friendly, and while he CAN ignore people, he'd rather schmooze if given the option.
> 
> I will admit, it annoys me (a lot). But a big part of it could be how he was raised before I got him.
> 
> Seven or eight months old when they start reproducing? What is WRONG with this person! The dogs are still PUPPIES, and definitely don't have any health testing done yet. COME ON!


@Xeph 

What does schmooze mean? No she actually starts breeding them at 2. I asked her the same question, perhaps she misunderstood the question and she says that is when females go through their first heat cycle. That is all. She knows when dogs are supposed to be neutered and spayed at certain age. Do you think it is best if I asked her testimonials about their dogs?


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## Xeph

What about them?? The sites are all over the place, and one of the breeders is an American show line breeder, not European lines at all.

I'm not sure what your real end goal is here


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## Xeph

> What does schmooze mean?


Wants to interact with/suck up to/have attention paid to him.

I honestly wouldn't be asking her anything further. I'd be easin' on down the road


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## Lobobear44

Xeph said:


> Wants to interact with/suck up to/have attention paid to him.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't be asking her anything further. I'd be easin' on down the road


@Xeph 

Well, we already scheduled an appointment to spend time with the dogs next Friday. I am down there for a few other things as well and they are an hour away from all we are doing. I'm making this a thing every I go for road trips will plan to go see a breeder to check them out. That doesn't hurt right? Alright I won't ask her questions any further. Spending time with her dogs might be fun on the bright side. I love dogs with a great passion. Thinking about careers in dog training and animal business. Do you think I should try booking an appointment with another breeder next time like one of those on the lists?


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## Lobobear44

Xeph said:


> Wants to interact with/suck up to/have attention paid to him.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't be asking her anything further. I'd be easin' on down the road


@Xeph 

Yup I know a couple who do that too. When I walk Dante (GS) or Lobo (GS Sable) they do the same thing. Although, we care more about doing bondening activities going different places, play, walks, hikes, once in a blue moon train, than going all physically cutisy. Only time is when they let me know when they want that. Doesn't feel nice to get to be able to take dogs everywhere you go? I want that.


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## trcy

Lobobear44 said:


> @erfunhouse
> @Neko
> 
> Certified Dog Trainers & German Shepherd Breeders - Assertive K-9 Training | Thinschmidt German Shepherds


I love how this one says Cesar Milan promotes them in his dvd. He didn't buy a dog from them though. He did buy a puppy from the breeder I got my puppy from. 

It's difficult to know what breeder to go with. My research was fairly quick. I contact a few and went with my gut. It wasn't until after I purchased my puppy that I saw Ceasar Milan bought a dog from them too. That alone would not sway me though. I've seen a few of their puppies and adult dogs and they are wonderful dogs.


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## Lobobear44

trcy said:


> I love how this one says Cesar Milan promotes them in his dvd. He didn't buy a dog from them though. He did buy a puppy from the breeder I got my puppy from.
> 
> It's difficult to know what breeder to go with. My research was fairly quick. I contact a few and went with my gut. It wasn't until after I purchased my puppy that I saw Ceasar Milan bought a dog from them too. That alone would not sway me though. I've seen a few of their puppies and adult dogs and they are wonderful dogs.


@trcy

I know getting all confused this and that. I looked at that breeder they seem very professional. You got your puppy from them? I would like to schedule an appointment with them too. When the time comes to get a GS I will consider them.


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## Xeph

No, I don't. I honestly think you should take a step back, do some more reading and researching, and not be traveling all over to kennels quite yet. Not until you're ready to do more *in depth* hands on learning.

But my opinion is only ONE opinion.


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## Lobobear44

Xeph said:


> No, I don't. I honestly think you should take a step back, do some more reading and researching, and not be traveling all over to kennels quite yet. Not until you're ready to do more *in depth* hands on learning.
> 
> But my opinion is only ONE opinion.


@Xeph

Are you a breeder too? I went on your website and loved those dogs. I wouldn't mind traveling getting my dogs traveling is an adventure anyways. However, since the schedule to see this breeder lengagsds is already booked we can't change it. Anyways might be a good experience for hands on learning on the contrary! Also get experiences with dogs a boost. Am a dog walker/sitter looking into dog training careers.


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## Xeph

Hopefully I will be, come this summer. It's been a long time coming.

And scheduling can always be changed (when it comes to cancellations, anyway). But, if you do have your heart set on your dogs, by all means, go see them. It will be a learning experience, regardless.


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## Lobobear44

Xeph said:


> Hopefully I will be, come this summer. It's been a long time coming.
> 
> And scheduling can always be changed (when it comes to cancellations, anyway). But, if you do have your heart set on your dogs, by all means, go see them. It will be a learning experience, regardless.


@Xeph

I'm all the way in CA though and already thinking of plans. Trips to Canada and elsewhere, getting jobs at the SPCA. Also a Senior in High School than college first. College plans first or even after college is all over than German shepherd. Too long and too hard to wait! Perhaps I can help give suggestions? Are you AKC registered? My heart is always set on animals.


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## Blitzkrieg1

That is a bear of a list and the majority of what I consider to be decent breeders would ignore such a silly email. Their litters are usually fully reserved before the pups are even born. People seek them out and sometimes BEG them for a pup. Why? Because they have had success in various LEGITIMATE venues. They have proven their dogs and have genetic and competitive track records that are there for all to see if you know where to look. They dont have time to just "hang out" with anyone, they are too busy training dogs and living their lives. Someone sending a list like that is a red flag buyer and not worth the trouble of replying too. The sender of such a list clearly knows nothing and has likely been listening to those "dog forum crazies" instead of doing real research..

My advice get out to a local dogsport club, see the dogs and the breeders there. Learn what makes a good GSD and what makes a Golden Retriever in a GSD Body, or worse yet a nervebag that will end up biting a kid someday. Learn from people that work their dogs and breed with a specific LEGITIMATE goal in mind. 

Not someone who's end goal is oversized, calm dogs with no prey drive that are really cute and sweet. IF thats the kind of dog you think a GSD should be maybe you need to reevaluate the breed of dog you want to eventually own. 

No offense but if you dont know what a good dog is how can hanging out with some random byb and petting her dogs ever teach you anything? Go learn from the pros. Passion and loving cute puppies will not get you very far on its own.


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## Lobobear44

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That is a bear of a list and the majority of what I consider to be decent breeders would ignore such a silly email. Their litters are usually fully reserved before the pups are even born. People seek them out and sometimes BEG them for a pup. Why? Because they have had success in various LEGITIMATE venues. They have proven their dogs and have genetic and competitive track records that are there for all to see if you know where to look. They dont have time to just "hang out" with anyone, they are too busy training dogs and living their lives. Someone sending a list like that is a red flag buyer and not worth the trouble of replying too. The sender of such a list clearly knows nothing and has likely been listening to those "dog forum crazies" instead of doing real research..
> 
> My advice get out to a local dogsport club, see the dogs and the breeders there. Learn what makes a good GSD and what makes a Golden Retriever in a GSD Body, or worse yet a nervebag that will end up biting a kid someday. Learn from people that work their dogs and breed with a specific LEGITIMATE goal in mind.
> 
> Not someone who's end goal is oversized, calm dogs with no prey drive that are really cute and sweet. IF thats the kind of dog you think a GSD should be maybe you need to reevaluate the breed of dog you want to eventually own.
> 
> No offense but if you dont know what a good dog is how can hanging out with some random byb and petting her dogs ever teach you anything? Go learn from the pros. Passion and loving cute puppies will not get you very far on its own.


@Blitzkrieg1

Not like all I do is play video games or go drive to stupid teenager wasteful things. Some people out there in the world who do want a calm dog. I know people who wanted the calmest German shepherd and went to a professional breeder and got a high maintenance dog. He is hard for them to handle, except for me he is not much to handle. 

As someday I might be a professional dog trainer and also want my German shepherds to go every with me. Have them do some work will also give both of us a nice productive life together. All would be doing something different, however. Some vets thought this breeder is highly recommendable too. There has been people who have been skeptical and were happy with the dogs. Go look up on her guestbook and references. Sometimes I brag how good my dog handling skills are too. Although, try my best not too because I love what I do. I tell people with large dogs I specialize in large dogs and you can trust me, I walk large strong German shepherds working European lines and German lines. Even when it is true. Someday I might mess up and not be trustworthy to a client. However, hasn't happened to me besides my aunt on some issue 4-years-ago long story. Wouldn't pick her to be in my references letters. Sometimes people just go overconfident because they know they are good just go a little too far.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Ill repeat what I said, I dont think you know what a good dog is or should be. Forget vets, forget your friendly ByB, go learn from those that actually work their dogs. Then you can form a realistic opinion on what you think a good GSD should be. 

Good luck.


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## NancyJ

Never met the woman so no comments other than I would not be looking there for a working dog.

One comment though since you are doing a lot of looking. It is considered bad form to post the contents of a private email (your questionnaire and responses) without permission from the other party. Not saying you did not do this but just for consideration.


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## holland

jocoyn said:


> Never met the woman so no comments other than I would not be looking there for a working dog.
> 
> One comment though since you are doing a lot of looking. It is considered bad form to post the contents of a private email (your questionnaire and responses) without permission from the other party. Not saying you did not do this but just for consideration.


Yes to the second part -I don't have an opinion on the breeder didn't look at the website


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## Neko

Why do people ask for an opinion, but than become all defensive when they don't hear what they want to hear? from the number of posts here, the opinion is clear.


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## Sunflowers

I can't comment on that one, but here is one. This is what you should be looking for in a responsible breeder.
NADAR K9 - News


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## lhczth

*The private email that was posted has been removed. Please refrain from posting private information without permission. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## trcy

Lobobear44 said:


> @trcy
> 
> I know getting all confused this and that. I looked at that breeder they seem very professional. You got your puppy from them? I would like to schedule an appointment with them too. When the time comes to get a GS I will consider them.


I Pm'd you the breeder I went with. I didn't see them in your list.


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## JakodaCD OA

Lobo, don't take this as a criticism please..
How long have you been researching german shepherds? 

You've been on this forum long enough to know or should know what is and is not a responsible breeder. 

Why waste a person's time, (your own and theirs), by checking out someone that the majority of people here say they would not purchase a dog from and their reasons why?

Why ignore the advice given ?> Do you think they are all wrong??

I guess I don't get it


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## trcy

After searching for reviews I found one from a person who was extremely dissatisfied and one good one, but written by the breeder.


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## Lobobear44

JakodaCD OA said:


> Lobo, don't take this as a criticism please..
> How long have you been researching german shepherds?
> 
> You've been on this forum long enough to know or should know what is and is not a responsible breeder.
> 
> Why waste a person's time, (your own and theirs), by checking out someone that the majority of people here say they would not purchase a dog from and their reasons why?
> 
> Why ignore the advice given ?> Do you think they are all wrong??
> 
> I guess I don't get it


@JakodaCD

I am knowledgeable about the breed know two German shepherds one German and one Working European Lines. One of them is a good dogs, but idk whether he is from a good or bad breeder. Lobo the sable German shepherd comes from a reputable responsible breeder and is healthy, solid great temperament, and what a German shepherd should be like. I don't think all of them are wrong or any. Also chit chat to breeders back and forth for education simply. Knowing bad and goods. Found some bad ones and some good one some I am not so sure on. For example, this breeder here.


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## Sansa's Mom

Even if you are looking for a calm, gentle GSD that you don't intend to work, that breeder's prices are outrageous. $2000 for a pet quality dog?! Truehaus is a good breeder in california that produces great dogs and they only charge $1,100. 

If you want a calm, gentle giant, rescue an older dog or pay an appropriate price ($800 or so) for a temperament-tested pet quality dog. 

Also, did you notice all of the keywords that she put in light pink so you couldn't see them? On the first page there is a paragraph like "black and red black and tan working dogs service dogs protection dogs" etc etc. It looks more like a craigslist post than a legit breeder. 

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## JakodaCD OA

again, not meant to criticize here, but knowing two german shepherds is not being knowledgeable about the breed overall. Educate yourself more, go to dog shows, which I think has been mentioned before 

You can't believe what everyone says, the website alone would have been a redflag to me (tho I don't base everything off a website)..Your questionaire answers were a huge red flag to me. 

If you like Lobo, GO to their breeder for your education.


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## holland

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That is a bear of a list and the majority of what I consider to be decent breeders would ignore such a silly email. Their litters are usually fully reserved before the pups are even born. People seek them out and sometimes BEG them for a pup. Why? Because they have had success in various LEGITIMATE venues. They have proven their dogs and have genetic and competitive track records that are there for all to see if you know where to look. They dont have time to just "hang out" with anyone, they are too busy training dogs and living their lives. Someone sending a list like that is a red flag buyer and not worth the trouble of replying too. The sender of such a list clearly knows nothing and has likely been listening to those "dog forum crazies" instead of doing real research..
> 
> My advice get out to a local dogsport club, see the dogs and the breeders there. Learn what makes a good GSD and what makes a Golden Retriever in a GSD Body, or worse yet a nervebag that will end up biting a kid someday. Learn from people that work their dogs and breed with a specific LEGITIMATE goal in mind.
> 
> Not someone who's end goal is oversized, calm dogs with no prey drive that are really cute and sweet. IF thats the kind of dog you think a GSD should be maybe you need to reevaluate the breed of dog you want to eventually own.
> 
> No offense but if you dont know what a good dog is how can hanging out with some random byb and petting her dogs ever teach you anything? Go learn from the pros. Passion and loving cute puppies will not get you very far on its own.


If a decent breeder would ignore an email from someone who is being genuine and honest-then maybe its not the right breeder for this poster. I think part of the role of a breeder is education and if I was a breeder I would rather an email from someone being genuine than from someone portraying to be something they are not. And if they are too busy to reply then maybe its just not the right breeder for this poster


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## Lobobear44

JakodaCD OA said:


> again, not meant to criticize here, but knowing two german shepherds is not being knowledgeable about the breed overall. Educate yourself more, go to dog shows, which I think has been mentioned before
> 
> You can't believe what everyone says, the website alone would have been a redflag to me (tho I don't base everything off a website)..Your questionaire answers were a huge red flag to me.
> 
> If you like Lobo, GO to their breeder for your education.


@JakodaCD OA 

Next time I go up to Canada I will consider that. Be nice if I could go up there with Lobo.


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## Saxony

Lobo, First let me say I applaud you for seeking out information--both here and by reaching out to a breeder you found. Research is a necessary for sure, and this shows good intent on your part...but let's take a step back for a second.

Do you know what you are looking for in a GSD or why you want a GSD? This is the first thing you must identify because that will help steer you to a breeder match. As I am sure you know, the GSD is a very versatile breed and can excel in many areas, and likewise, breeders specialize in these areas. Make sense? Because this breeder that you mentioned has a lot of words like "gentle, calm, outgoing, friendly" etc. describing her dogs, it appears she is marketing herself towards people looking for companion dogs--in other words, people wanting a pet. There is nothing wrong with companion dogs (pets); in fact the majority of dogs in the world are pets and if you want one, they are very available because every litter produces them! 

If you're not looking for "just" a companion dog...what is it exactly that you want to do with your dog? Do you want to compete? Do you want to show? Do you want to spend hours and hours (and lots of money) training and conditioning...constantly? If yes, then clearly identify your goal and then your breeder should be a breeder that is actively pursuing excellence in the same goal as you. This is very important. Cannot stress this enough. 

These are questions you want to ask a breeder: What are you doing with your dogs? Where are you competing? When was their last (show/competition) and how did they do? What are your goals with this litter? Your puppy buyers, what do they do with their puppies? And guess what...many of the above questions can be verified externally. If the breeder is competing, results are posted somewhere. The breeder will have pictures, ribbons... the lack of any of this hard evidence means the dogs are being bred but have not been proven in competition. 

So first, you must ask yourself, and answer honestly, why do you want a GSD and why do you find this breeder attractive? What are you going to do with your GSD? You must first look in the mirror, identify your goals and then you can start to find a good match. 

Rather than going and hanging out with breeders...since you're not ready yet...why not instead seek out your local shepherd club or all breed kennel club--or schutzhund club? There are many such clubs in CA. Google it. Go hang out with people that are established in the breed. Find out what events are taking place and attend, and through these experiences you can start to shape your opinion about what activities you want to participate in, what is attractive to you, and by talking with people who are into the breed, they can help you when you are ready. This is the same advice I would give to someone who is 16 or 60. There is only so much you can do on the internet...you'd be better served getting out to the clubs. Good luck to you.


----------



## Bane Vom Vox

erfunhouse said:


> Just checked out the web site...if I have to read the terms "gentle and sweet" or" exceptional" one more time I'm going to scream.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol !


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Lobobear44 said:


> @JakodaCD
> 
> *I am knowledgeable about the breed know two German shepherds* one German and one Working European Lines. One of them is a good dogs, but idk whether he is from a good or bad breeder. Lobo the sable German shepherd comes from a reputable responsible breeder and is healthy, solid great temperament, and what a German shepherd should be like. I don't think all of them are wrong or any. Also chit chat to breeders back and forth for education simply. Knowing bad and goods. Found some bad ones and some good one some I am not so sure on. For example, this breeder here.


Lol..

@ Holland
I think the right breeder for this poster is the one she is asking about . Essentialy a watered down version of the real thing, with no drive, poor nerve and potentially poor health. Sometimes its best to learn the hard way, or in many cases never learn at all... The blind leading the blind..but hey I hope they get to pet some dogs together and share all that mutual knowledge.


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## JakodaCD OA

blitz, I could be wrong but I think the OP is a "he"

And I agree with you. 

One can only 'try' to educate so much, in the end they will do what they will do and believe they are doing the 'right' thing


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## alexg

JakodaCD OA said:


> blitz, I could be wrong but I think the OP is a "he"
> 
> And I agree with you.
> 
> One can only 'try' to educate so much, in the end they will do what they will do and believe they are doing the 'right' thing


My bet is on that the OP is a "She".


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## Castlemaid

I agree with Blitz - the OP is really set on a GSD, and the type of dogs being promoted in the first link may be a good match for him. I'd rather see a good match, then the OP ending up with too much dog, being frustrated and feeling like a failure, and rehoming the dog. 

I think though that the OP should seriously consider rescue - he gets a dog with KNOWN temperament and energy level, and a dog gets saved: win-win!


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## Saphire

Here is what saddens me and I see alot on this board. People looking for the supersized couch potato GSD. Yes there are breeders out there producing these dogs but to me they are not a GSD. If you don't want a high energy medium sized extremely smart dog with drive, why are you looking for a GSD? There are plenty of other breeds to choose from.
I too think going through a rescue to find the traits you seek and already exist is better than encouraging a breeder to breed a GSD that lacks true GSD traits.


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## alexg

and I lost ... the OP is a "He" after all. With a Labradoodle!


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## Saphire

Your not alone.....I too thought OP was a she.


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## alexg

Saphire said:


> Here is what saddens me and I see alot on this board. People looking for the supersized couch potato GSD. Yes there are breeders out there producing these dogs but to me they are not a GSD. If you don't want a high energy medium sized extremely smart dog with drive, why are you looking for a GSD? There are plenty of other breeds to choose from.
> ...


Where is a *Like* button?


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Essentialy a watered down version of the real thing, with no drive, poor nerve and potentially poor health.


How extensive is your experience with the breeder & her dogs that you know so much about the dogs? 



> People looking for the supersized couch potato GSD.


I've seen many assumptions that people are seeking this whenever someone asks about oversized GSD but I've rarely seen people actually looking for such qualities in their GSD. Most people, pet, sport & working people, want a dog with an off button, an ability to settle. Well bred GSD, whether companion, show or sport/work lines should have this quality. They should also be active, athletic & capable of going for hrs when necessary. Although there's an assumption that companion lines are incapable of this I haven't found it to be true. Nor have others I know that have acquired carefully bred companion lines.


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## Saphire

RubyTuesday said:


> How extensive is your experience with the breeder & her dogs that you know so much about the dogs?
> 
> I've seen many assumptions that people are seeking this whenever someone asks about oversized GSD but I've rarely seen people actually looking for such qualities in their GSD. Most people, pet, sport & working people, want a dog with an off button, an ability to settle. Well bred GSD, whether companion, show or sport/work lines should have this quality. They should also be active, athletic & capable of going for hrs when necessary. Although there's an assumption that companion lines are incapable of this I haven't found it to be true. Nor have others I know that have acquired carefully bred companion lines.


So you have just created or described yet a third line of GSD's?

Show Line
Working Line
Companion Line?

There is a difference between having and off switch and breeding for calm gentle giants.

This breeder states..

I breed the large boned Shepherds that have sweet, gentle, loving, affectionate,*friendly,sociable, and confident personality.

I specialize in breeding the gentle and calm puppies that are wonderful with the elderly and small children*

That is not the description I expect when looking for a GSD. 

Gentle and calm GSD puppy????


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## Sunflowers

Friendly is my red flag. The German Shepherd is not supposed to be friendly.


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## Castlemaid

Sunflowers said:


> Friendly is my red flag. The German Shepherd is not supposed to be friendly.


That's now getting a bit too nit-picky - what's wrong with a friendly dog? 

And I know GSDs are supposed to be aloof - aloof does not mean anti-social though. 

Hey, I have Asperger's, I'm aloof. I DO NOT seek out contact with others. Does not mean I'm not friendly if you come up to me to chat.

I don't think the OP is looking for size per se - just calm and low energy. 

I still think rescue is the way to go for this person.


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## Saphire

I could be wrong but I think she is thinking about the friendly Golden Retreiver like GSD that runs to people to say hello.


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## Castlemaid

Saphire said:


> I could be wrong but I think she is thinking about the friendly Golden Retreiver like GSD that runs to people to say hello.


And that would be a training issue. 

People talk as if being friendly is some type of capital sin - there are much worse things that a GSD can be.


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## Saphire

Absolutely can be worse but that kind of friendly is not a breed characteristic. It is the one thing that I noticed the most with my first GSD. Having had Siberian Huskies for so many years, they loved people and looked to say hello to all. I noticed immediately that my GSD boy could care less if a stranger pet him. He would continue to look at me...totally indifferent.


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## Sunflowers

Castlemaid said:


> And that would be a training issue.
> 
> People talk as if being friendly is some type of capital sin - there are much worse things that a GSD can be.



I can't believe I am supposed to train my GSD to be aloof. :crazy:


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## onyx'girl

Young GSDs may be very friendly, but when they mature I see that aloof trait pop up. I'd much rather have a dog that is friendly than one that wants to eat small children. I have two that would like to eat kiddo's and it is not fun to manage. So far, they haven't gotten a taste....
There should be balance and a GSD should be a thinking dog, not run up to whoever(happily or aggressively) because they think there is something in it for them.


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## Sunflowers

onyx'girl said:


> Young GSDs may be very friendly, but when they mature I see that aloof trait pop up. I'd much rather have a dog that is friendly than one that wants to eat small children. I have two that would like to eat kiddo's and it is not fun to manage. So far, they haven't gotten a taste....
> There should be balance and a GSD should be a thinking dog, not run up to whoever(happily or aggressively) because they think there is something in it for them.


But the aloof trait does not mean a dog that that wants to eat small children!

It means a dog that is not all goo-goo over strangers, and doesn't run to others to get lovin's and to lick them all over. He should be polite and tolerant, but not loving except to his family members. 

A dog that wants to eat small children is aggressive, and that aggression is misplaced, to boot. Not the same as aloof.


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## Lobobear44

Saphire said:


> Here is what saddens me and I see alot on this board. People looking for the supersized couch potato GSD. Yes there are breeders out there producing these dogs but to me they are not a GSD. If you don't want a high energy medium sized extremely smart dog with drive, why are you looking for a GSD? There are plenty of other breeds to choose from.
> I too think going through a rescue to find the traits you seek and already exist is better than encouraging a breeder to breed a GSD that lacks true GSD traits.


@Saphire

Lobo is a sable GS that his guardians got from a breeder up in Canada. The guardians really wanted a couch potato dog and is not at all a boring couch potato dog. Lobo doesn't want to become a couch potato dog and wants to be who he is an active, playful, goofy,medium-high maintenance, etc. So for me he is a perfect match that his guardians are supposed to be. He is not hard to handle at for me as he is for them. So they got a new trainer where Lobo is isolated from all visitors except had short visits with me. Now I can't walk him temporarily (not going into details. Perhaps I could talk about this on another thread to get it.) This way Lobo can see his guardians are responsible and the only ones to provide everything for him.


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## onyx'girl

Sunflowers said:


> But the aloof trait does not mean a dog that that wants to eat small children!
> 
> It means a dog that is not all goo-goo over strangers, and doesn't run to others to get lovin's and to lick them all over. He should be polite and tolerant, but not loving except to his family members.
> 
> A dog that wants to eat small children is aggressive, and that aggression is misplaced, to boot. Not the same as aloof.


exactly...the dog should be balanced regardless. Aloof is a GSD trait, eating small children is not. Friendly is not usually either....but I'd take it over misplaced aggression. 
That was the point I was trying to make, I guess I failed.


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## Sunflowers

Who is the breeder?


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## ozzymama

I think I would lose a nut if I hired someone to walk my dog and they came posting on a web board LOL.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

RubyTuesday said:


> How extensive is your experience with the breeder & her dogs that you know so much about the dogs?
> 
> I've seen many assumptions that people are seeking this whenever someone asks about oversized GSD but I've rarely seen people actually looking for such qualities in their GSD. Most people, pet, sport & working people, want a dog with an off button, an ability to settle. Well bred GSD, whether companion, show or sport/work lines should have this quality. They should also be active, athletic & capable of going for hrs when necessary. Although there's an assumption that companion lines are incapable of this I haven't found it to be true. Nor have others I know that have acquired carefully bred companion lines.


I dont think you really know what a good GSD is or supposed to be so further discourse is pointless. In the end people will do what they want to do. I agree that a rescue seems like a good idea, better then supporting a breeder like that.


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## Saphire

ozzymama said:


> I think I would lose a nut if I hired someone to walk my dog and they came posting on a web board LOL.


I will come walk your dogs!


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## Lobobear44

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I dont think you really know what a good GSD is or supposed to be so further discourse is pointless. In the end people will do what they want to do. I agree that a rescue seems like a good idea, better then supporting a breeder like that.


I do, however my philosophy is not about that. German shepherds are working dogs, suppose to be active, suppose to be aloof, not a couch potato. However, not always about that. I am find with any GS except one that doesn't understand squrrels. Truth is everybody shouldn't be couch potatoes. Everybody should be who they are. If you are an active person don't disguise yourself as a couch potato. Same goes for dogs. Not all German shepherds are the same if one is a mellow dog he can be that way. If a German shepherd is active and goofy that is who he is. Once you realize a dog's individual and respect and is kind to that than he will respect and listen you to return. Dogs are not happy when they are not respected of their own individual being unrecognized.


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## Lobobear44

ozzymama said:


> I think I would lose a nut if I hired someone to walk my dog and they came posting on a web board LOL.


@ozzymama

Yeah I want to delete that post. Forgot to read through that before submitting.


----------



## Lobobear44

Lobobear44 said:


> @Saphire
> 
> Lobo is a sable GS that his guardians got from a breeder up in Canada. The guardians really wanted a couch potato dog and is not at all a boring couch potato dog. Lobo doesn't want to become a couch potato dog and wants to be who he is an active, playful, goofy,medium-high maintenance, etc. So for me he is a perfect match that his guardians are supposed to be. He is not hard to handle at for me as he is for them. So they got a new trainer where Lobo is isolated from all visitors except had short visits with me. Now I can't walk him temporarily (not going into details. Perhaps I could talk about this on another thread to get it.) This way Lobo can see his guardians are responsible and the only ones to provide everything for him.


Request to delete this post.


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## Saphire

Lobobear44 said:


> I do, however my philosophy is not about that. German shepherds are working dogs, suppose to be active, suppose to be aloof, not a couch potato. However, not always about that. I am find with any GS except one that doesn't understand squrrels. Truth is everybody shouldn't be couch potatoes. Everybody should be who they are. If you are an active person don't disguise yourself as a couch potato. Same goes for dogs. Not all German shepherds are the same if one is a mellow dog he can be that way. If a German shepherd is active and goofy that is who he is. Once you realize a dog's individual and respect and is kind to that than he will respect and listen you to return. Dogs are not happy when they are not respected of their own individual being unrecognized.


If you want what a GSD should be, you find a breeder that is breeding what they should be.

If your looking at a rescue (which I think you should), you accept the dog for who he/she is.


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## Lobobear44

Saphire said:


> If you want what a GSD should be, you find a breeder that is breeding what they should be.
> 
> If your looking at a rescue (which I think you should), you accept the dog for who he/she is.


Accept any dog for who he/ she is.


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## Saphire

Good luck in your search. I hope you find whatever it is your looking for.


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## Lobobear44

Saphire said:


> Good luck in your search. I hope you find whatever it is your looking for.


Not for now, just spreading around my philosophy which I think is really important.


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## DaniFani

ozzymama said:


> I think I would lose a nut if I hired someone to walk my dog and they came posting on a web board LOL.


:spittingcoffee: Wait...so Lobo, the dog in your signature, OP? The dog you've been talking about this whole time? That isn't YOUR dog? It's a dog you walk? Is it at least a family members GSD? Or a close friend? I have to agree with ozzymama, it's a little odd to come and talk SO much about another person's dog. To the point where a reader like myself, honestly thought you were talking about your own dog.

I'm confused.


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## Sunflowers

OP spent a lot of time with that dog, and grew attached.


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## DaniFani

Sunflowers said:


> OP spent a lot of time with that dog, and grew attached.


Yeah, I remember the story now. I couldn't quite place the "Lobo" in my memory. Nevermind OP, I remember.


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## Lobobear44

DaniFani said:


> :spittingcoffee: Wait...so Lobo, the dog in your signature, OP? The dog you've been talking about this whole time? That isn't YOUR dog? It's a dog you walk? Is it at least a family members GSD? Or a close friend? I have to agree with ozzymama, it's a little odd to come and talk SO much about another person's dog. To the point where a reader like myself, honestly thought you were talking about your own dog.
> 
> I'm confused.


@DaniFani

Long story, I could cut it short or not go into details. Just the point I am making across is some guardians want a couch potato dog and come up with a dog who has high energy that some don't have the energy to deal with. Some guardians are dissatisfied with high energy dogs when all they want is him/her to be couch potato. Lobo has calmed down now since he is 2, but still has stuff that the guardians want to take care of. It is difficult for both of the guardians to provide Lobo with exercise like I give him that they would love. 

Nothing personal, but cannot walk Lobo due to this new trainer what he is recommened or telling them to do. A year ago he started to have leash reactive aggression that started with one dog. He does this unpredicatbly sometimes. However, progressively overtime he started to do this more. I am now the most experienced and the best at handling dogs who have or can have issues with other dogs. If you think Lobo and Dante are the only leash reactive dogs I know think again. SPCA and rescue organizations who I volunteer for have dogs who have the same thing as both of them. So am very used to it. To be honest, think a lot when I am going to walk a dog that does not have leash reactive dogs. Although have a few huskies that do not have any leash problems. I think it is more the other dogs who give the wrong approach. Lobo is not neutered for some reasons not for any breeding purposes. So the neuter dogs usually make some approach on Lobo that he does not like. So basically defending. He been doing this to me a little more. However, a month ago Lobo's guardian experienced this when Lobo done it on herself on a puppy. Hard to explain and I don't know if you understand this. I don't really understand this either. The new trainer they got 2 months ago said Lobo has to have isolation from people for awhile. They feel as this might make Lobo happier, but I have an opposite feeling and theory. Nobody likes to have isolation from society for a long time. Reality is they are really trying to help Lobo the only way that I can do frequent visits with Lobo and walks is when this is all over. Once this thing is all over than we can move on. I put all my faith in Lobo that he can do this.


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## Lobobear44

Sunflowers said:


> OP spent a lot of time with that dog, and grew attached.


@Sunflowers

Exactly Lobo and I spent a lot of time when he was a pup on frequent visits every week for 2-8 hours. Mostly 5 hours, except school nights. All until 2 months ago when frequent visits ended to a cut down divorce not by either choice. Just this new trainer I am not sure what to think of. Long story and hard to comprehend and explain. Hard to adjust to the new life like getting over a divorce.


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## doggiedad

GSD's are versatile. they can be friendly.



Saphire said:


> I could be wrong but I think she is thinking about the friendly Golden Retreiver like GSD that runs to people to say hello.


----------



## ozzymama

Saphire said:


> I will come walk your dogs!


Well, C'mon! You can even have Christmas Dinner with us tonight!


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## martemchik

OP, I used to think like you...I used to think there was a place for the low drive, couch potato GSDs because people want a dog that looks like a GSD but doesn't act like one. Well that's just wrong. Sure, if you end up with one, you should accept that dog for what it is, but as a breeder...that's not something you should be breeding for. Stick to the standard, and the standard calls for a dog that wants to work.

No one is saying get rid of the couch potato GSD if you have one, but if that's what you want...why not just pick another breed that is supposed to be lazier/couch potato. Trust me, its much more fun to live/work a GSD that has drive and energy. It's so much more fun to train it, and its also a blessing to know that no matter what you decide to try with that dog...it will be happy to do it.

You're young, you don't have much experience with dogs, all you know is one dog that you walked. You haven't realized how much stuff there is to do with a dog. Go to akc.org or ukcdogs.com and see all the different activities you can do with a dog. Don't make your dog a couch potato, make it something more. Hope to excel in one of those sports and see how much fun it is. I have to instruct dogs all the time where the owner is really getting into a sport but their dog just isn't interested. It's so upsetting to see how a handler wants to do well in a sport but their dog just doesn't care, all it wants is to lay on the couch. That's not how GSDs are supposed to be. They ask me how I got my dog to be so happy, so excited to do simple things like heel or sit, its hard to tell them that I didn't do anything, he's just happy to work, happy to please, happy to do anything outside the house. Nothing these people do will help them build the kind of drive my dog naturally has...and for a decade they'll be "stuck" with a dog that is a wonderful house pet, but won't do the fun things out there that dogs and humans can do together to build an even stronger relationship.

Trust me...no one here would get rid of a couch potato, that dog would live a long and healthy life in a wonderful home. But if you're going to be supporting someone that is influencing the breed...why support someone who is producing dogs that aren't able to perform the simplest of tasks? The GSD is a working dog first and foremost, its work ethic is what has been so prized over the last century. Its that same work ethic that has gotten it to be as popular of a breed as it is today, and there is no reason to get a breed just for the look. Get a correct dog, don't just get a frame with nothing inside. And trust me...its not hard to step up to the plate and take care of a higher drive dog. My current dog is my first dog EVER, and I have no problems keeping him entertained and under control He is a wonderful house pet and is loved by everyone that meets him. People love a dog that is excited to see them, meet them, and interact with them...its much more fun than one that just lays on the couch all day and doesn't even care that there are visitors.


----------



## Lobobear44

martemchik said:


> OP, I used to think like you...I used to think there was a place for the low drive, couch potato GSDs because people want a dog that looks like a GSD but doesn't act like one. Well that's just wrong. Sure, if you end up with one, you should accept that dog for what it is, but as a breeder...that's not something you should be breeding for. Stick to the standard, and the standard calls for a dog that wants to work.
> 
> No one is saying get rid of the couch potato GSD if you have one, but if that's what you want...why not just pick another breed that is supposed to be lazier/couch potato. Trust me, its much more fun to live/work a GSD that has drive and energy. It's so much more fun to train it, and its also a blessing to know that no matter what you decide to try with that dog...it will be happy to do it.
> 
> You're young, you don't have much experience with dogs, all you know is one dog that you walked. You haven't realized how much stuff there is to do with a dog. Go to akc.org or ukcdogs.com and see all the different activities you can do with a dog. Don't make your dog a couch potato, make it something more. Hope to excel in one of those sports and see how much fun it is. I have to instruct dogs all the time where the owner is really getting into a sport but their dog just isn't interested. It's so upsetting to see how a handler wants to do well in a sport but their dog just doesn't care, all it wants is to lay on the couch. That's not how GSDs are supposed to be. They ask me how I got my dog to be so happy, so excited to do simple things like heel or sit, its hard to tell them that I didn't do anything, he's just happy to work, happy to please, happy to do anything outside the house. Nothing these people do will help them build the kind of drive my dog naturally has...and for a decade they'll be "stuck" with a dog that is a wonderful house pet, but won't do the fun things out there that dogs and humans can do together to build an even stronger relationship.
> 
> Trust me...no one here would get rid of a couch potato, that dog would live a long and healthy life in a wonderful home. But if you're going to be supporting someone that is influencing the breed...why support someone who is producing dogs that aren't able to perform the simplest of tasks? The GSD is a working dog first and foremost, its work ethic is what has been so prized over the last century. Its that same work ethic that has gotten it to be as popular of a breed as it is today, and there is no reason to get a breed just for the look. Get a correct dog, don't just get a frame with nothing inside. And trust me...its not hard to step up to the plate and take care of a higher drive dog. My current dog is my first dog EVER, and I have no problems keeping him entertained and under control He is a wonderful house pet and is loved by everyone that meets him. People love a dog that is excited to see them, meet them, and interact with them...its much more fun than one that just lays on the couch all day and doesn't even care that there are visitors.


You are not reading thoroughly through my words. Since a 12-year-old I have been efficient around dogs all I cared about. Wasn't talking about myself talking about what other people. although still that is my philosophy. Walking mostly large dogs: German shepherds, Siberian huskies, pits, Malamutes, etc. also volunteer at rescue organizations 3 2 GS ones and a Nordic rescue. Volunteer at an animal shelter SPCA for 3 years. Been studying and researching too. You think I'm a slow learner come out with nothing? You are underestimating me too much. I can handle any dog. Handled hundreds or thousands of dogs. I don't think you get it. The people with Lobo doesn't want him to be excited just a couch potato who he is not meant to be. I disagree with that. Actually Lobo's guardian thought this breeder was a real responsible breeder herself cause of those couch potato German shepherds. Also will see one of clients of this breeder. He claims that is dog is really active, mellow, does work stuff. German shepherds working European lines are amazingly magical all German shepherds are.


----------



## martemchik

Lobobear44 said:


> You are not reading thoroughly through my words. Since a 12-year-old I have been efficient around dogs all I cared about. Wasn't talking about myself talking about what other people. although still that is my philosophy. Walking mostly large dogs: German shepherds, Siberian huskies, pits, Malamutes, etc. also volunteer at rescue organizations 3 2 GS ones and a Nordic rescue. Volunteer at an animal shelter SPCA for 3 years. Been studying and researching too. You think I'm a slow learner come out with nothing? You are underestimating me too much. I can handle any dog. Handled hundreds or thousands of dogs. I don't think you get it.


I don't think you get it...sorry, owning a dog, taking care of one 24/7/365 is a lot different than helping out and volunteering. Anyone can walk a dog that's already been trained to walk properly. Training a dog, bonding with it, having a set goal for that dog, working towards that goal, and achieving it is something special. It's something that's a lot more difficult than just stopping by for a few hours and taking care of a dog.

Your experience (which is wonderful) leads you towards pet type dogs. You're not looking at fulfilling your dog in other ways. You clearly believe that a dog that has food, a couch, and a roof over its head is happy. Which is fine. But what I'm reading is that you believe you should just let a dog do what it wants and its almost "wrong" to force it to work. You're not going to understand this statement until you see it...GSDs are happiest when they're working. My friends poke fun at my dog all the time telling me that I force him to do all the obedience/rally/agility. They think he'd be much happier just laying around all day. Sadly, this is a very humanizing thought about our canine companions. Dogs were bred to work for us.

The point I was trying to make...and it doesn't just have to do with you OP, its for anyone that reads this thread...is that a GSD is a working dog. And although its prudent for you to look for a breeder that breeds a dog that you know you can handle and you don't want to be overwhelmed with, why does that dog have to be a GSD? You're clearly smart enough to know that you don't want to handle a higher drive GSD...so why do you want a GSD? Why not a different breed? Is that other breed going to love you any less? Give you a different fuzzy feeling inside? Your goals for your dog have nothing to do with a GSD...you just want a calm, relaxed, pet dog...so why does it have to be a GSD?

You are clearly in love with how a GSD looks. You don't care at all what the temperament of the breed SHOULD be like. You know you can get the type of temperament you want from a breeder that in all technicality has FAILED the breed and is breeding dogs for people that want something for its look.

Check your ego at the door...you can't handle any dog. You've admitted that by looking for a low drive, family friendly, ghost of a GSD. If you were up for the "challenge" of owning a true German Shepherd Dog, you wouldn't be trying to convince this forum that the dogs you're looking at have a place in this world.


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## Sunflowers

OP, since you know everything and feel you have nothing to learn on this forum, you really should join a dog club where you could do hands- on things


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## Lobobear44

martemchik said:


> I don't think you get it...sorry, owning a dog, taking care of one 24/7/365 is a lot different than helping out and volunteering. Anyone can walk a dog that's already been trained to walk properly. Training a dog, bonding with it, having a set goal for that dog, working towards that goal, and achieving it is something special. It's something that's a lot more difficult than just stopping by for a few hours and taking care of a dog.
> 
> Your experience (which is wonderful) leads you towards pet type dogs. You're not looking at fulfilling your dog in other ways. You clearly believe that a dog that has food, a couch, and a roof over its head is happy. Which is fine. But what I'm reading is that you believe you should just let a dog do what it wants and its almost "wrong" to force it to work. You're not going to understand this statement until you see it...GSDs are happiest when they're working. My friends poke fun at my dog all the time telling me that I force him to do all the obedience/rally/agility. They think he'd be much happier just laying around all day. Sadly, this is a very humanizing thought about our canine companions. Dogs were bred to work for us.
> 
> The point I was trying to make...and it doesn't just have to do with you OP, its for anyone that reads this thread...is that a GSD is a working dog. And although its prudent for you to look for a breeder that breeds a dog that you know you can handle and you don't want to be overwhelmed with, why does that dog have to be a GSD? You're clearly smart enough to know that you don't want to handle a higher drive GSD...so why do you want a GSD? Why not a different breed? Is that other breed going to love you any less? Give you a different fuzzy feeling inside? Your goals for your dog have nothing to do with a GSD...you just want a calm, relaxed, pet dog...so why does it have to be a GSD?
> 
> You are clearly in love with how a GSD looks. You don't care at all what the temperament of the breed SHOULD be like. You know you can get the type of temperament you want from a breeder that in all technicality has FAILED the breed and is breeding dogs for people that want something for its look.
> 
> Check your ego at the door...you can't handle any dog. You've admitted that by looking for a low drive, family friendly, ghost of a GSD. If you were up for the "challenge" of owning a true German Shepherd Dog, you wouldn't be trying to convince this forum that the dogs you're looking at have a place in this world.


You are misinterpreting and misunderstanding every point I'm making across. I know everything and aware of everything you said. One last time I wish the guardians of Lobo would not make him a couch potato dog who will miss out on fun. Lobo will be desgised as a couch potato dog sadly. Lobo shouldn't be a couch potato dog the exact opposite of a couch potato. Stay the working drive dog Lobo is meant to be. The guardians doesn't want him to be excited when people like me his favorite visitor sadly. That is making Lobo really unhappy. Taking of dogs 24/7 365 days for 10 years is a no brainier walk in the park. That is my only top skill is dogs.


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## Lobobear44

martemchik said:


> I don't think you get it...sorry, owning a dog, taking care of one 24/7/365 is a lot different than helping out and volunteering. Anyone can walk a dog that's already been trained to walk properly. Training a dog, bonding with it, having a set goal for that dog, working towards that goal, and achieving it is something special. It's something that's a lot more difficult than just stopping by for a few hours and taking care of a dog.
> 
> Your experience (which is wonderful) leads you towards pet type dogs. You're not looking at fulfilling your dog in other ways. You clearly believe that a dog that has food, a couch, and a roof over its head is happy. Which is fine. But what I'm reading is that you believe you should just let a dog do what it wants and its almost "wrong" to force it to work. You're not going to understand this statement until you see it...GSDs are happiest when they're working. My friends poke fun at my dog all the time telling me that I force him to do all the obedience/rally/agility. They think he'd be much happier just laying around all day. Sadly, this is a very humanizing thought about our canine companions. Dogs were bred to work for us.
> 
> The point I was trying to make...and it doesn't just have to do with you OP, its for anyone that reads this thread...is that a GSD is a working dog. And although its prudent for you to look for a breeder that breeds a dog that you know you can handle and you don't want to be overwhelmed with, why does that dog have to be a GSD? You're clearly smart enough to know that you don't want to handle a higher drive GSD...so why do you want a GSD? Why not a different breed? Is that other breed going to love you any less? Give you a different fuzzy feeling inside? Your goals for your dog have nothing to do with a GSD...you just want a calm, relaxed, pet dog...so why does it have to be a GSD?
> 
> You are clearly in love with how a GSD looks. You don't care at all what the temperament of the breed SHOULD be like. You know you can get the type of temperament you want from a breeder that in all technicality has FAILED the breed and is breeding dogs for people that want something for its look.
> 
> Check your ego at the door...you can't handle any dog. You've admitted that by looking for a low drive, family friendly, ghost of a GSD. If you were up for the "challenge" of owning a true German Shepherd Dog, you wouldn't be trying to convince this forum that the dogs you're looking at have a place in this world.


PS stop underestimating, and dismissing me.


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## alexg

There is really no need to quote the entire post ... twice to write a response.


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## gaia_bear

Lobobear44 said:


> You are misinterpreting and misunderstanding every point I'm making across. I know everything and aware of everything you said. One last time I wish the guardians of Lobo would not make him a couch potato dog who will miss out on fun. Lobo will be desgised as a couch potato dog sadly. Lobo shouldn't be a couch potato dog the exact opposite of a couch potato. Stay the working drive dog Lobo is meant to be. The guardians doesn't want him to be excited when people like me his favorite visitor sadly. That is making Lobo really unhappy. Taking of dogs 24/7 365 days for 10 years is a no brainier walk in the park. That is my only top skill is dogs.


Training a dog to have manners when people come to the door regardless of whether they are the favorite visitor is not making the dog a couch potato or taking away his working drive. I have a fairly high drive puppy and I don't let him greet anyone with that sort of excitement, he knows that he has to remain calm in order to get attention that's where training comes in and what every dog owner should expect. I really think you should follow everyone's advice and go visit different dog venues to see these dogs work prehaps then you will have more of an understanding what others are trying to say.


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## martemchik

Lobobear44 said:


> PS stop underestimating, and dismissing me.


I'm not underestimating you...YOU are underestimating yourself.

I could care less about Lobo, I care more about your future dog. No offense, but from your description, he's a dog that was never taught manners. It has nothing to do with his drive or energy, he just wasn't trained on how to act around humans. Here's what you probably didn't see...the dog jumping on other visitors. YOU don't care that he jumps on you, YOU don't have to live with him, and YOU accept that he jumps on you out of excitement and love. Most other people, don't care for that. If they greet a dog, they don't want it jumping on them. They also don't want a dog jumping on their children who are probably smaller than the dog. Maybe in the 8 hours a day you spent with him, you could've taken the time to teach him some manners and then the owners wouldn't have these problems with him now...

Lobo's happiness is not affected in any way by not being allowed to jump on people. That's exactly what you're missing. You're humanizing the dog, giving him feelings that he doesn't feel. My dog isn't angry/sad because he's been taught that its not right to jump on people. You're stuck on allowing the dog to do what it wants no matter how it affects the people around it! If Lobo was happy biting people would that be alright in your mind? 

You're the one that admitted you don't want a dog that has a lot of drive. A dog that might end up being "too much" for you or your family. So you're doing your research and finding a breeder that produces that type of GSD. I'm just telling you that that type of GSD is wrong. 

You still haven't given me a reason why you want a GSD. I asked you a bunch of questions and you just read over them and decided not to answer them. Give me the reason you want a GSD that doesn't have anything to do with the way it looks. Currently...the only things you have talked about is how you don't want a dog that is a proper GSD...one that is driven, has energy, and wants to work. You've listed off what you DON'T want in a GSD...which in essence is removing everything a GSD should be.

I'm trying to show you/teach you that its wrong to mold a dog to YOUR needs. We already have hundreds of breeds...get one that fits what you need. Don't support someone that's breeding a sub-standard, non-conforming dog. The things you're looking for in a dog, can easily be found in a different breed without changing the essence of what that breed is.


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## gsdlover91

Just want to say - I think there is nothing wrong with a friendly GSD. 

My GSD is aloof, as in, he won't go actively seeking attention out EXCEPT from children. But he is also friendly. 

I don't think that makes him any less of a GSD....he is aloof to adult strangers, unless they want to say hi. Even then, sometimes he is impartial to the attention. 

I like having a dog that doesn't scare the pants off of everyone. He can tell when to really be aloof and guarded (he is at night, or when we have encountered bums - he completely ignored their attempts to get his attention) and when he can be friendly.

But I agree, Golden Retriever friendly isn't good. But friendly traits balanced with those aloof traits? I see nothing wrong about that.


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## Sunflowers

gsdlover91 said:


> Just want to say - I think there is nothing wrong with a friendly GSD.
> 
> My GSD is aloof, as in, he won't go actively seeking attention out EXCEPT from children. But he is also friendly.



I think different people have different definitions of friendly.


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## gsdlover91

Also OP, I know you're young, but I agree with martemchik, you cannot handle EVERY dog. No one can. 

I've been around dogs my whole entire life, yet, owning and raising my very own dog, a GSD no less, is ALOT different. 

Raising your very own dog from 8 weeks is ALOT of work, and I won't lie, MUCH harder than I thought. 

I don't have any problems with my dog, and I think I have done great, but I did a crap ton of research and working with animals is what I am going to school for. 

Lots of issues can crop up that you may have never thought about. Like how my dog wants to literally eat my cats. I had to figure out how to deal with that and fix that issue. 

So don't just say you can handle anything, unless you literally have experienced everything. Walking dogs is not training them; its not raising them, its not dealing with their behavioral issues, their medical issues.


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## Sunflowers

gsdlover91 said:


> Also OP, I know you're young, but I agree with martemchik, you cannot handle EVERY dog.


Yes, he can.

I believe OP is around 14 or so. 

Of course he can handle anything. I could, too, at that age.


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## gsdlover91

Sunflowers said:


> Yes, he can.
> 
> I believe OP is around 14 or so.
> 
> Of course he can handle anything. I could, too, at that age.


Dang, I thought the OP was like 17. Well then, I too thought I could handle anything at that age.


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## Lobobear44

Sunflowers said:


> Yes, he can.
> 
> I believe OP is around 14 or so.
> 
> Of course he can handle anything. I could, too, at that age.


What is OP? Btw 18-years- old in high school a senior. I am not an ordinary human with dogs a very special human. I acknowledge not failing to acknowledge myself. I can do anything yet their has not been a dog I failed to handle. I raised both Riley my Labradoole and Lobo the GS since 8-weeks. Both came out to be wonderful dogs. Both are easy to handle. German shepherds are easier to handle than beagle.


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## gsdlover91

Lobobear44 said:


> *German shepherds are easier to handle than beagle.*


LOL sorry I disagree.

Btw OP is orignal poster/original post.


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## boomer11

Sunflowers said:


> Yes, he can.
> 
> I believe OP is around 14 or so.
> 
> Of course he can handle anything. I could, too, at that age.


lol so true....


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## boomer11

Lobobear44 said:


> German shepherds are easier to handle than beagle.


lol so false....


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## LoveEcho

Lobobear44 said:


> German shepherds are easier to handle than beagle.



:headbang:


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## misslesleedavis1

LOL, my fiance thought he could handle every dog we fostered  our first one was a crazy little GSD female, she was intense with the ball drive, more then i could ever get into over a thread. Anyways one morning he handled the dogs out the door and took them for a very well managed run thru the conservation area, just so happened that familes were there enjoying the gorgeous day..so picture one absolute **** jogging with 1 gigantic mixed GSD, a crazy fast little GSD and a border collie all coming down the way perfectly handled by the man who thought he could handle any dog. They were all leash free btw in a leashed zone. Well roxy the intense one ran straight up to a toddler and ripped her red ball right out of her hands while shiloh the big mixed mutt jumped the picnic table and plowed back all there food. The border collie took off as fast as he could and barked at the people who were at this point screaming at "the man who could handle any dog". I am so happy i was not there, and he was mortified at what occured..its funny to think of now, if you can picture it..but he learned that day that NO he could not handle any dogs let alone his own.


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## Sunflowers

If you raised Lobo so well since he was eight weeks old, how come you were banished from there and they had to hire a trainer to fix his behavior problems?


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## Lobobear44

gsdlover91 said:


> LOL sorry I disagree.
> 
> Btw OP is orignal poster/original post.


Lol lets agree to disagree. I could post my face up.


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## Lobobear44

Sunflowers said:


> If you raised Lobo so well since he was eight weeks old, how come you were banished from there and they had to hire a trainer to fix his behavior problems?


You are all taking this the wrong way too much. I'm not banished by any means. Simply the new trainer gave them advice no visitors for the time being. This has nothing to against me Lobo's guardian said that. Not that same guy who is in a fantasy Lobo loves me more than his guardians thing anymore. That is just silly. Don't have to go into details why and why I want a GS. I told you on this thread a million times my philosophy.


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## ozzymama

Lobobear44 said:


> German shepherds are easier to handle than beagle.


I know we have a head bang emoticon and a popcorn eating one, do we have a mushroom eating one, because that's how I feel reading this thread.


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## Saphire

Lolol!


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## JakodaCD OA

You did not raise this dog, you 'visit, walk, and hang out with' this dog. He is NOT your dog. 

I'm sure he likes you, maybe even loves you, but I have yet to meet a german shepherd who loves anyone else more than their own people. 

If these owners hired a trainer a PROFESSIONAL which you are not, it's for a reason. 
They live with the dog, they own the dog. It sounds like the trainer is probably teaching the owners how to be more responsive/train the dog for "them" not you.

Having someone else in the picture may only be confusing the dog's behavior. 

I'm sorry, but you are 'not' the pro you think you are. When you've LIVED with a german shepherd, when you've TRAINED, a german shepherd which you have not, maybe then you'll 'get it'. 

You may have been around many dogs, you may have taught dogs some basic stuff, it doesn't take a pro to do that.

Many times people on this forum have given you suggestions / info on what to do, where to go, how to learn.. yet you start this thread not knowing if this was a responsible breeder?

I don't mean to criticize, not my intent, I do not think having this obsessive attachment to someone else's dog is a healthy thing. 

If I were the owner of this dog and saw these posts, you would be on the outside looking in, you would have no more contact with my dog that's for sure.

The trainer is a pro, there's a reason they don't want you interacting with the dog, you should respect that and keep your opinions to yourself, it's not your dog.


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