# Another Pit Bull story



## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

_Let me preface this by saying, I'm not one of those types who think pit bulls are killers, have locking jaws, turn on their owners, or they eat baby sea lions._

I recently noticed a neighbor across the street has gotten a pit bull (looks to be 5-6 months or so I'm really not sure.) And this is where his strikes begin.

Strike 1: In our city, Pit Bulls are not allowed. I have the right to call the city at this point and report him but hey, if the dog is being treated fairly and being taken care of I'm ok with him having his dog.

Strike 2: The dog apparently isn't being treated properly. Last Wednesday I stayed home from work due to inclimate weather. And so I ordered a pizza for me and the kids. So I was peeking out of the blinds looking for the pizza guy and thats when I saw the pit bull outside in the front running around. The owner (young guy) was out side yelling for the dog to come to him. I called my daughter to come to the window and look with me. I explained to her look how good our dog is compared to this one, Sasha would come when called (no matter where we are.) And this dog seemed to be afraid and it was just very hesitant to come to the owner. Well the guy finally got his hands on the dog, and he picked it up off of the ground (all fours off the ground) by its collar smacked it a round a big and took him back into the house that way while yelling at him. I explained to my daughter this is why that dog is afraid to come. It gets punished when he comes. You are supposed to praise the dog when he comes to you. 

Strike 3: A couple of days ago I was out throwing the fribee with Sasha. And I was standing where I could still see the neighbors house. Well I saw the PB was in its backyard running around and then I watched him as he climbed over his fence to escape the yard. So I stepped out of my own backyard and started heading towards him and his house to tell the owner that his dog was out. Before I got close, the owner came outside and started to scream at the dog. He then noticed me and he changed his tone. The PB knew better though and he took shelter under a nearby pick up truck. I told the owner I was just coming to let him know the dog was out and he thanked me (he had to.) then in the fakest, sweetest voice, he tried to lure the dog out with a piece of kibble. The dog finally came to the owner (belly touching the ground) and the owner nicely escorted the dog back into the house where I'm sure he got the beating of his life.)

So now I do plan to call the authorities. I feel this dog will become a danger to the neighborhood. Not because he is a pit bull but because he is a dog that is getting mistreated by its human, and may be fear agressive towards strangers. My daughter catches the bus everyday right in front of this house. My 3 year old son often helps us bring in grocery bags from the car at night. My own 8 mo GSD is also out side where this other dog could easily climb our fence to get to her. I figure there is no reason to wait for something bad to happen and I think I'll be calling in a couple of weeks so I don't make it so obvious that I called.

any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.




On a lighter note, I haven't posted here in a while but a quick update on Sasha. She is the greatest dog that I've ever owned in my life. She's my first GSD and won't be my last. She's doing very well with house breaking, she learns new things quickly, she's full of energy and over all is just a great friend. She still mouths/nips a bit when playing, she still gets overly excited when I or anyone comes through the front door, and thats about it.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I think that's a difficult situation with a lot of factors. It will probably mean a death sentence for the dog if it's seized though, so something to think about. 

Do you think there's any way the person might be receptive to re-homing it somewhere else? Not that it's easy to find home for Pit Bulls, in fact they're the most difficult breed to place there is, but at least that way it might have a chance.







If it winds up in a shelter in an area where they're banned, it's dead for sure.

ETA: Alternatively - if the people are keeping the dog indoors, they're several rungs up the ladder of owners than most that I deal with around here. Maybe give them some info on dog training? They might really not know any better but be receptive to a better way. I meet a LOT of people who do the punish-the-dog-for-running-away thing. If you don't feel comfortable talking with them, perhaps an anonomous dog training book left on the doorstep?


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Great point. I'll call the shelter and see what would happen if I called them to pick up the dog. I actually didn't intend to tell them the entire story. Just that the neighbor has a pit bull. I don't want to go any further than that. But I'll call the shelter and see what they would do with the dog. The one that I'm thinking that handles our area had a lot of pit bulls in it the few times that I've gone and I'm pretty sure they were available for adoption, only if you had some kind of note from your city hall or somethign to that affect.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Chances of adoption for PBs are extremely slim, but if they at least put them on the adoption floor that's something! The municipalities I've worked with in areas with BSL just put them down. 

Do keep in mind that shelters aren't always 100% honest about questions like that because when they tell the truth people scream at them, so they often don't. But if you've seen PBs there for adoption, that's promising.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Ok, I just called the city hall and asked what is their rules on owning a pit bull. They confirmed that it was not allowed under any circumstances. They said they would issue them a ticket and say that they have to get rid of the dog. I asked what would happen if they people didn't get rid of the dog, what would happen. No one there could answer that since its never happened before. They said they've never had to come out and cease (sp?) a dog before. 

Now for whatever silly reason (above post probably) I'm thinking of going to talk to the owner to see if he would be open to discussing tips on training his dog. But I don't know if it would be worth that. People like him just don't get it sometimes.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

You never know







Sometimes people just don't know any better. Maybe an approach like "Man, I used to have the exact same problem with my dog (even if you didn't) and somebody gave me this books/pamphlet/technique and it was amazing!" So it's coming across as understanding and helpful even if what you really want to do is smack him upside the head with a 2x4. 

I've also had some success vocally admiring people's dogs, like "oh! What a great dog! I've always wanted one like that!" to get them talking and feeling positive about what they've got. Maybe see the dog in another light.

You may very well be right (and probably are), but if there's any chance at all, it seems worth a shot to keep the dog in a home.


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## skyizzy (Apr 15, 2008)

Call asap this poor dog does not deserve to be treated lkie this!


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

Are there any rescue groups in your area who might be willing to step in and help out, since the dog is in contravention of city bylaws?

I live in a breed ban city too, and there is a bully rescue here that helps pits find homes in other areas.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Update:

I stepped out on my door step saturday morning and this dog was standing in my driveway. He was eye balling my dog in the backyard. I

I called to him and he came to me wagging his tail. and he followed me back across the street to the owners house. 

I still don't trust him though knowing what the owner is doing. I feel like the best thing to do is to get him out of that house but whats to say he doesn't end up with another bad owner. 

I'm kind of lost on what to do now.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

The only thing with the rescue thing, I just don't want to get too involved as I don't want any retaliation from them.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: NerrejUpdate:
> 
> I stepped out on my door step saturday morning and this dog was standing in my driveway. He was eye balling my dog in the backyard.


I'm sure someone will get all bothered by what I'm about to say but oh well...it's just my opinion.

I don’t like Pit Bulls. I think they should be completely banned from the US (I only say US because it’s my home)

These dogs are too aggressive, tough and have become way too popular. It’s a problem imo. Just last year in Houston two pit attacked and killed a boy while his 5 year old brother ran for his life..thank God he got away. The year before that a Houston man came home to find his wife dead on the back porch from two pits that were pets. There is just something wrong with that. No that all of them are that way but they have it in them and even more so when there is more than one.

These dogs have turned into the “cool super bad a$$” dog to have and every idiot on the block is breeding them. In fact just yesterday I went to my nieces 2nd birthday party and we brought our yorkie (the one I let my wife get because I refused to let her buy a GSD from a pet store that she feel in love with) because he just can’t stay in a crate all day w/o using the bathroom on himself. Anyway a little girl walked up to use before we got to the door and asked what kind of dog we had. My wife told her and them she continued to tell us she had a dog too and that it had just had puppies. My wife responded with “what kind of dog do you have that had the puppies?”…the girl looked at my wife like she was stupid and said….”Pit!” like it was a really stupid question. And I just walked off thinking “great that’s just what the world needs…more backyard breed pits. 

A couple weeks ago we went by petco and they were giving some kind of shots for free or something so people were bringing their dogs up there. There was a huge line and as we were walking by I was looking at the dogs and could not believe how many pit bulls were in this line. I kid you not I looked at my wife out of total confusion because I just could not believe how many there were (some were pit mixes but whatever).

I’m assuming these dogs could be breed for a better temperament like any other dog but with them being as popular as they are it’s not going to happen. And with these dogs being naturally aggressive and extremely tough only the most responsible people should own them…and that just isn’t happening. In fact we are getting just the opposite and that’s a really bad thing.

Sorry for the rant but I worry about people like yourself who could just be out walking your dog only to have this pit get out and kill your shepherd. Or for this pit to jump the fence and get in your backyard while your shepherd is in the back. It’s just not right.

Sorry for the rant.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

Just thought I would add this....

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Brandon C
> 
> I'm sure someone will get all bothered by what I'm about to say but oh well...it's just my opinion.
> 
> I don’t like Pit Bulls. I think they should be completely banned from the US (I only say US because it’s my home)


Yep, I'm bothered by this. What about all the good pit bulls and their responsible owners - too bad for them??


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GregK
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Brandon C
> ...


I don't know...it sure wouldn’t be fair. Maybe banning them completely is a tad extreme but I'm more concerned with children not getting killed than I am anyone’s feelings. Did you read that link I posted? What the researcher said about Pits. They are dangerous dogs and right now they make up over 50% of attacks and deaths. That's a problem. I have a 3 year old so when this crap happens in my home town it's a huge deal to me.

It's just too bad that there aren’t more responsible owners like you out there.

That said I don't want to hijack this topic any more than I have so lets stick to PMs.


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## JazzNScout (Aug 2, 2008)

I'm glad you called the city about this dog/the guy. That situation is just asking for trouble. We live in between two homes with pit bulls -- on one side is the ugliest fugliest but sweetest pit bull you'd ever want to see, with a highly responsble owner. On the other side are two raging alcoholics and drugs users whose boxer got out so many times he was finally hit by a car -- and then they get a pit bull "who had been hit in the head with a 2 x 4 by his former owner." Even better: my dogs and the pit bull love fence fighting. Then the guy lets the dog out loose with him in his front yard. My biggest fear is he will come after Jasmine, my dog-aggressive GSD. I swear, when I saw them with that dog, I said, "That's it. I'm moving." It's ultimately the owners. And it seems like asses have chosen pit bulls as the dog flavor of the decade.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Brandon CJust thought I would add this....
> http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf


I would like to add this:

Dog attacks that were identified incorrectly 

Many breeds are mistaken for "pit bulls" and this fact and the fact that there is not even an actual single breed called "pit bull" skews the statistics on dog bites greatly.





> Originally Posted By: Brandon C
> I don’t like Pit Bulls. I think they should be completely banned from the US (I only say US because it’s my home)
> 
> These dogs are too aggressive, tough and have become way too popular. It’s a problem imo.


Some areas which have breed bans include German Shepherds on their banned breeds list and many include similar breeds like Rottweilers and Dobermans. If they banned "pit bulls" from the US the German Shepherd may not be far behind.





> Originally Posted By: Brandon C
> I don't know...it sure wouldn’t be fair. Maybe banning them completely is a tad extreme but I'm more concerned with children not getting killed than I am anyone’s feelings. Did you read that link I posted? What the researcher said about Pits. They are dangerous dogs and right now they make up over 50% of attacks and deaths.


So-called "pit bulls" (as you can see in the link above many dogs may have been misidentified as "pit bulls") may be shown to be responsible for many deaths caused by dog bites. However the numbers don't really add up. There are in average something like 8-30 dog bite fatalities in the US every year. The breeds commonly called "pit bull" are very popular in the US meaning there must be a lot of them around, and since "pit bull" could mean the dog might be one of at least 3 and possibly up to 10 different breeds (American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and so on) the numbers of the dogs in the US are even higher. Yet according to the statistics you are at least 2-3 times more likely to be killed by lightning than by a dog attack from any breed.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

anything with thats stout, blocky headed and has pointing ears is the "dangerous pit bull"










Why not send the owner some training information and what not. You dont have to put your name on it or anything, send it via snail mail or stick it in his mail box one night. Just dont say anything after that.

The way one dog will or might go after another dog doesnt usually have anything to do with how they treat humans. IE: Dog aggression doesnt = human aggression and just because the guy beats his dog doesnt mean its going to be human aggressive. Fear aggressive and hand shy, but chances are cause of the treatment it'll start to shy away from humans more than want to go after them.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineYet according to the statistics you are at least 2-3 times more likely to be killed by lightning than by a dog attack from any breed.


well that sucks. i am starting a petition to ban lightning. anyone who is interested may pm me.


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## skyizzy (Apr 15, 2008)

Yes it bothers me too! I have a pitt/shepherd mix, so does that mean Murphy has a double whammy? Murphy is the sweetest most loving dog to all including dogs people cats squirrels kids you name it he loves them all. Its too bad that these beautiful dogs get such a bad rap from pinheads(thats putting it nice) that should not even be allowed to own goldfish!! We should also ban hurricanes they killed more people in one year that pitts have in a lifetime.


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## george1990 (Nov 24, 2008)

You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I disagree with it however. It's just that I believe that as of right now, the "pit bull" (and the quotes are intentional, as many people have no idea what a real pit bull is) is the fad dog. The only reason that they're blamed is because they are the most popular breed (as of right now) and that the breeding practices are skewering what the real APBT should be like. 

But, imagine if that was so if the GSD was the fad dog today? APBT aren't any more human aggressive than a GSD. Yet, if the GSD was as popular, they'd be just as unstable because overbreeding by BYB. 

BSL won't fix anything. Either they'll ignore the new laws, or they'll just move onto another breed until those are banned as well, and the last breeds that are left only include fufu's, whateverpoos, and you name it.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

I understand that now a days every attack is an automatic "IT WAS A PIT BULL".

Unfair...yeah I think so. But there is a reason they got in this situation. Fact is they have a bad rap because they are aggressive plus there are so many idiot owners. There is a reason that the dog fighting idiots use them. 

The link I gave was an honest study that flat out talked about how they are and how they don't even really give warnings before they attack. He makes it very clear thet they are very different than most dogs. 

I'm not saying that every pit is a terrible dog but the whole "they are so misunderstood" stuff is not true imo.

But really...I should not have even started this. To the OP...sorry for hyjacking the topic.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: george1990You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
> 
> But, imagine if that was so if the GSD was the fad dog today? APBT aren't any more human aggressive than a GSD. Yet, if the GSD was as popular, they'd be just as unstable because overbreeding by BYB.


Thanks for being nice about it









I don't agree though. The Pits are a whole lot tougher than most dogs. It just wouldn't be the same and again the dog fighters use them for this very reason.

I used to work what an idiot who would go watch these fights...friends of his. The stuff he used to tell me was terrible. Man did I dislike that guy..


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

Okay, I'm going to stay calm here. But, I have known several Pit Bulls owned by kind, responsible owners in my area. Their dogs are all sweethearts and have never hurt a soul.
Here's my Papillon mix with one:









It's how the dog is raised that makes it good or bad. A neighbor of mine owned a German Shepherd that would bite people and because my Cookie looked almost exactly like his dog (except for being the opposite gender), he tried to pin the blame on my GSD, Cookie.

The most aggressive dog I ever had the misfortune to meet? A Chihuahua. Don't get me wrong, I love the little things, but people baby them and they put them in situation and laugh when the dog acts terrified.

Get a Pit Bull in the wrong hands--the hands of someone who will not train it, not socialize it, and perhaps even TEACH it to fight--, and he could hurt a lot of people.
Do you realize that Michael Vick's Pit Bulls were rescued, rehabilitated (only one or two had to be put down), and some of them went on to become *therapy dogs*?

I respect your opinion, but it does shock me to some extent that a German Shepherd owner would be for breed bans. German Shepherds were once targetted you know and I still get an occasional ignorant comment about Cookie from people who hate German Shepherds. The worst comment I ever got was someone telling me to euthanize her because of her breed.

What about Labs? They're one of the most popular breeds and despite their good reputations, many of them have killed people. In fact, the stockier-type Labs are commonly misidentified as Pit Bulls because people assume that any dog with a box-y head and muscular neck is a Pit Bull. Truth be told, there are several breeds with this feature.

I hate irresponsible owners. I hate dog fighting. My take is why not ban irresponsible owners rather than an entire breed based on news reports that will call a dog a Pit Bull before they know for sure what breed it is?
IMO, banning an entire breed based on what some members of the breed do is no better than banning an entire race because they have the highest crime rate.
Again, I respect your opinion, just my take.


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## george1990 (Nov 24, 2008)

APBT aren't naturally human aggressive, and it's considered a fault. But, look at most of the people who have APBT. If all the people who have APBT suddenly had GSD, you can bet GSD bite fatalities would rise off the charts as well. Also, check out this site and see if you guys can identify the pit bull.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/polling-place/99220-can-you-identify-pit-bull.html


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: george1990APBT aren't naturally human aggressive, and it's considered a fault. But, look at most of the people who have APBT. If all the people who have APBT suddenly had GSD, you can bet GSD bite fatalities would rise off the charts as well. Also, check out this site and see if you guys can identify the pit bull.
> 
> http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/polling-place/99220-can-you-identify-pit-bull.html


There was an internet game that I found a while back similar to this called "Identify the Pit Bull". It was a Flash/Java script game. Took me 5 tries before I got it right and there were pictures of 25 different breeds listed in the game.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I dont think the original site is up anymore, but here are some adaptions

Find the Pit Bull 

Find the Pit Bull


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Brandon C
> Unfair...yeah I think so. But there is a reason they got in this situation. Fact is they have a bad rap because they are aggressive plus there are so many idiot owners. There is a reason that the dog fighting idiots use them.



The reason they are used in fighting is that they do have a tendancy towards high prey drives and dog-to-dog aggression and because they are highly trainable and eager to please their owners. In fact the original fighting dogs were bred AGAINST human aggression because the fighters would have to be able to handle the dogs and even separate the fighting dogs in the ring and therefore human aggressive was NOT accepted and dogs aggressive towards humans were generally not bred. Aggression towards humans and towards other dogs are two separate things and should not be confused. Unfortunately there are idiots out there who will train or mistreat a dog to be aggressive towards humans. The fact is though the "pit bull" type dogs are NOT the largest or strongest dogs out there. They are only medium sized dogs so if you are worried about big strong dangerous dogs maybe you should start by banning the mastiff breeds and move on from there. I'm sure you would get to German Shepherds sooner or later as they also are large, strong dogs with a high bite strength.

I have known hundreds of pit bull type dogs and only one was aggressive towards people. That one was some sort of mixed breed which was part Amstaff and had been rescued by a police officer from a bad situation-- that was one out of hundreds. Most of them were not aggressive towards other dogs either actually. I would say that they are indeed misunderstood if you believe that they are all aggressive.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Actually the GSD really isnt far behind the APBT, there are lots of homeowner insurances and places that have the GSD on the list of breeds that are banned.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDolchanything with thats stout, blocky headed and has pointing ears is the "dangerous pit bull"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just want to make sure you all saw that the OP isn't one of those people who thinks Pit Bulls are killers. It's this horrible owners treatment that bothers me. Like I said, the dog was nice to me the other day. it may not be too late for hiim. but i'm afraid if he continues to be abused, something bad will happen. I don't read this guy as being the type that will take to "training pamphlets." also, I don't know if you read my entire first post, but pit bulls aren't allowed in my city to begin with. So he is already breaking the law just by having the dog.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Back to the OPs issue ...

Personally, I think the dog would be better off humanely euthanized by Animal Control than left with the current owner.

Call and report them.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Nerrej-- I didn't take the time to read every response to your post so I don't know if someone already brought this up to you or not. This may sound harsh but I feel that people like you are also a part of the problem, no matter what the breed. You see a young inexperienced dog owner doing everything wrong with his dog. So what is your solution??? Call the LAW. So what have you accomplished?? Nothing, other than in this case get a pup killed. You didn't cange the young owners outlook on raising the dog. You mentioned who well behaved your dog is. How'd that happen? you trained it, right? someone showed you how to correctly raise and train a dog. So why not talk too your neighbor? Kindly point out how to take care of a dog and train a dog to have good behavior. Give him pointers. Then also mention how that if he's going to have a breed that he isn't supposed to in that town, he should take extra speacial care to make sure it is well behaved and confined.... I think that would be better for everyone involved. Not only for the dog, your neighbor but you also. It's always funny how people seem to find out which neighbor called.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi R. Mattox. You should read first before criticizing people. Do you have kids? My daughter took the trash outside yesterday. What if this dog was behind the trashcan and was startled by her. Then I would be writing here about my daughter's mangled face.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Or how about this, maybe some one should give Chris Brown a pamphlet on relationships since he beats his girlfriend apparently. He's young, he just needs to learn right?

and people like me are the reason these dogs are being put down? People like me would never treat a dog like these idiots who get their dogs taken away from him. People like me would never lift a dog off the ground with his collar while choking him.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Nerrej
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: GSDolchanything with thats stout, blocky headed and has pointing ears is the "dangerous pit bull"
> ...


My whole post wasnt directed to you, I understand the situation you face to an extent, but are you sure its an APBT? And not a different breed that looks like one?

You say you want to do "something" but you also dont seem to really be wanting to. Im sorry for being blunt, but thats the way I see it.

You can

A)Call and report them to animal control, cause a rescue wont just take the dog
B)You can theif the dog in the night and tell a rescue it was a stray (I personally wouldnt, just throwing options out there, lol)
C)You can try to talk to the guy, dont judge a book so harshly, esp. if he grew up old school. Sometimes it just takes a little time and being shown there is a better way (might work, might not)
D)you can send some training information and care without your name on it and go from there if you dont want confrontation
E)Ignore the problem

Those are really about the only options I forsee.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: NerrejOr how about this, maybe some one should give Chris Brown a pamphlet on relationships since he beats his girlfriend apparently. He's young, he just needs to learn right?
> 
> and people like me are the reason these dogs are being put down? People like me would never treat a dog like these idiots who get their dogs taken away from him. People like me would never lift a dog off the ground with his collar while choking him.


Actually the lifting the collar off the ground sounds like some training methods. I think its what some call "old school". Right or wrong the guy could very well be thinking he's doing his training right, or the way he was taught.

Getting into the beating a GF and beating a dog to me can be very different psyological differences. Yes, while when someone maims, dismembers and tourtures a dog it can lead and be a sign towards abusing and doing the same to humans, its not always entirely so.

Im not condoning someone beating their dog now, but my grandfather and my father and alot of older people, esp. in the south was if the dog does something it shouldnt, you give it a few good hits and it'll stop. Again, not condoning it and now adays most people know of and use much much better methods of training. Like I said before, sometimes people get stuck in their ways and this can go on to their kids. Without someone showing them another way we cant expect them to stop what they are currently doing.

Now thats not to say the guy will or will not take the advice, I dont know that personally.

And for the record, I dont think your the reason the dogs are getting put down, thats stretching it alot I think. Your in a situation where theres not very many good options to go by.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDolch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My mistake, I thought I posted this here but I must have posted it on another forum. Heres the update from the weekend.

_I stepped out on my door step saturday morning and this dog was standing in my driveway. He was eye balling my dog in the backyard. 

I called to him and he came to me wagging his tail. and he followed me back across the street to the owners house. 

I still don't trust him though knowing what the owner is doing. 

I'm kind of lost on what to do now. _

So here his where my hesatation really begins to set in. Its like he wants to be a good dog but... I just don't know about that owner.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I think the thing thats being missed though is that the way he eyeballs your dog doesnt mean that the dog is going to do anything to a human, even with the owner beating it, its more likely to become fear aggressive and shy away from people instead of toward them. Most dogs who bite out of fear are usually cornered or forced into the situation. A dog thats gonna go all out and is really human aggressive is going to go towards someone with the intent of doing harm. Chances are, if the dog becomes a bitter because of being beat its going to do so out of fear and so long as it has an out, it'll take the out before it goes for a bite.


But all in all, that really isnt the problem. It seems that the two main choices are call AC or ignore the problem.

Another option maybe, if the guy is how you say he is, tell him you love his dog so much that you want to buy it and see if he will sell it, then you can smuggle him out of your area.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

I would like to retract what I originally posted...to some extent. 

Like I said I was being a bit extreme when I said they should be banned. It’s my emotional side talking out of frustration from all the terrible things I hear about here in Houston. 

I still do not agree that they are the same as other dogs. I agree that they are accused for every incident and that is unfair. The fact remains that they are a lot tougher than most dogs and they are highly aggressive towards other dogs as well. Sure they typically don’t run the streets looking for people to kill but if you’re walking your dog you best hope that the Pit that just jumped the fence doesn’t see him. 

And yes there are bigger stronger dogs out there but there are few breeds as tough as the Pit Bulls and very few as aggressive towards other dogs. 

I’m not attacking all pits here…I know they are not all the same.

A couple years ago I was walking my dog in the evening…about 6PMish. Anyway it was dark and I was almost home when I saw something running at me and the dog. When it reached the point where it was under the street light I saw it was a big’ol white Pit. My first thought was “OH &^%$!”. Anyway he ran up to use and at this point I had taken my knife out not knowing how this was going to go but knowing 100% that I was not going to let my dog get hurt. Understand the knife would be the last option in this situation and would have only been used if my dogs life would have been in clear danger. 










^ The dog on the left is the one I was walking…he was about 95lbs at the time and he’s no sissy let me tell ya. I only say he’s no sissy because I had to pull him off another dog we took in once that tried to jump on him over a milk bone.

So anyway the pit ran up and guess what…….he wanted to play. That said I made sure to keep him away from my dog knowing that even a growl could set these two off and that could end up really bad. So knowing that the dog was very friendly I got my wife to give this pit some attention so he wouldn’t focus on my dog. Being right by the house at this point I took my dog home and came back to help my wife. I ended up bringing this dog home and playing with him in my garage while we called his owners (the # was on his collar). So it all worked out and this dog was really sweet. 

The point of that story is that I don’t think they are all evil blood thirsty monsters. And I took this dog home until I could get the owner so I’m not out to get these dogs. But what worries me is of course bad owners and the problems that come with them but also the dogs themselves. What if my dog had gotten out of the fence (he wouldn’t leave even if I left the fence open but this is a “what if”) and he had ran into this dog in the street? As big as my dog is it probably would have been the end of him. To me these dogs are just unfairly though compared to most breeds…seems to be a bit unbalanced in my opinion.

Anyway completely banning them was kind of a stupid comment on my part. But I still don’t think these dogs (or the other bully breeds) should be treated like any other dog. That said I have no idea what the fix is…..


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## sielick (Jun 2, 2005)

look on the east coast pitts are bred for 1 thing..AGRESSION i am not far from the hood and work with inner city shelters...


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: 9071look on the east coast pitts are bred for 1 thing..AGRESSION i am not far from the hood and work with inner city shelters...


Its like that here too. Obviously there are some good breeders, but there are more bad than good here.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Nerrej
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: 9071look on the east coast pitts are bred for 1 thing..AGRESSION i am not far from the hood and work with inner city shelters...
> ...


I think that's the situation everywhere in the US to be honest.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: 9071look on the east coast pitts are bred for 1 thing..AGRESSION i am not far from the hood and work with inner city shelters...


Sure, aggression towards DOGS - not people.

The way a dog fight works is that two people bring their dogs into the ring, square them off and let them go.

When one dog is picked as the winner those same two people have to go back INTO THE RING and physically separate the dogs. One dog could still be locked on to the other dog.

The dogs must allow their owners to pry their mouth open, if necessary.

So you can see, these dogs must have ZERO human aggression or they wouldn't last as a fighter.


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

It's not a bad dog. It's a bad owner!

My neighbors won't even talk to us anymore because we have a pit/shepherd mix (who sleeps on the couch all day).


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Update:
My daughter just called from home saying that she was standing outside on the bus stop and the dog was running around out side and the owner was no where in sight.

Aggression towards dogs agression towards people. Makes no difference in this situation here since I have both.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: NerrejUpdate:
> My daughter just called from home saying that she was standing outside on the bus stop and the dog was running around out side and the owner was no where in sight.
> 
> Aggression towards dogs agression towards people. Makes no difference in this situation here since I have both.


I agree 100%. 

People love their family and pets are part of that family. 

Do you know this guy well enough to talk to him about it?


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Unfortunately I don't know him at all.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: NerrejUnfortunately I don't know him at all.


That’s too bad. It’s a bad situation really. 

If you go and talk to him and the problem continues and you’re forced to do something then he will know it was you who called the cops or whatever you choose to do.

I don’t know man..


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Nerrej I took your advise and read all yourt post on this topic. Now I'm sure of it you are the problem. Let's start by examining your posts. First:

" Do you have kids? My daughter took the trash outside yesterday. What if this dog was behind the trashcan and was startled by her. Then I would be writing here about my daughter's mangled face."

ANSWER: YES i have kids and they have been around more APBT's than you have ever seen with you own eyes. What makes you think that you would be writing about your daughters mangled face????? Just because of it's breed? APBT's aren't a spooky breed by nature and this dog doesn't seem to be aggressive. ie. your statement:

"I stepped out on my door step saturday morning and this dog was standing in my driveway. He was eye balling my dog in the backyard. I called to him and he came to me wagging his tail. and he followed me back across the street to the owners house."

He came to you and followed you wagging his tail. I also like your enflamitory wordage EYE BALLING your dog. Every dog will check out other dogs they see. If this dog wasn't at the fence teeth bared trying to get at your dog he isn't aggressive. It's just his breed that makes you use that terminology. I doubt you would have mentioned it if it was a GSD. I also doubt you would even think of calling the cops on the owner of a GSD who's dog was doing the same things.

You also show you bias with your statement"

"Obviously there are some good breeders, but there are more bad than good here." 

Totally false. Perhaps you should check with all the registries that register the APBT. UKC American Dog Breeder Association, AKC (as ASBT) to name only a couple and see how many APBT's are registered a year. Then compare it to any other breed out there and i think you will be surprised. It has one of, if not the highest registries each year. 

Again your bias shows:

"I don't read this guy as being the type that will take to "training pamphlets." but the go on to say "Unfortunately I don't know him at all."

So you really haven't tried to help at all. You say your worried about how the dog is being treated. But yet instead of educating this guy Who maybe receptive to kind help, you let it continue.

To me you are the same as the person who starts a statement with "I'm not racists but" then goes on to tell you why they don't like people from a certain ethnic backround. Kind of funny comming from someone who has a black man as his avatar.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Brandon C
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: NerrejUnfortunately I don't know him at all.
> ...


My thoughts exactly.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxNerrej I took your advise and read all yourt post on this topic. Now I'm sure of it you are the problem. Let's start by examining your posts. First:
> 
> " Do you have kids? My daughter took the trash outside yesterday. What if this dog was behind the trashcan and was startled by her. Then I would be writing here about my daughter's mangled face."
> 
> ...


Thank you for your prompt response.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Here's another satement i find strange:

"People like me would never lift a dog off the ground with his collar while choking him."

Funny I didn't see where you ever stated your neighbor did this. 

Whatever happened with this statement;

"I'm thinking of going to talk to the owner to see if he would be open to discussing tips on training his dog. But I don't know if it would be worth that. People like him just don't get it sometimes."

I think you've fallen off your high horse and lost your nerve. You don't know "if it would be worth it"? Trying to make sure that the dog has a better living environment is'nt worth trying???? "People like him just don't get it"????? AGAIN i refer you back to your own statement:

"Unfortunately I don't know him at all."

So either get a set and walk over and talk to the guy. Or live with the fact that you are going to be a contributing factor in either this dogs less than wonderful homelife do to your inactivity. Or a major cause of the dogs death when you call the law and he's put down. Nice thing to think about when it may only have taken a neighborly talk when you saw him out in his yard.

I'll help you out here. Start the conversation like this:

"Hey how's it going today? (wait for response) You know I saw your dog out of the yard the other day. He's a nice looking dog. I'd hate to see him picked up by the humane society and put down for being loose. You know how they are in this town with those dogs. We're (yes say we're) not even legally allowed to own them here. You know I train dogs. I can give you a few pointers that may help with him so that you don't have to worry about that...."

There is no possible way, if you do it just like that that any person would take offense and you will be able to accomplish exactly what you CLAIM you wanted in the first place.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: R. Mattox
> 
> You also show you bias with your statement"
> 
> ...


Uh..I can tell you without a second thought that there are more bad breeders in Houston than good. (can't speak for other towns)

Any weekend day you can drive down 1960 and see Pits (and almost no other breed) being sold in the parking lots. I see it ALL THE TIME. In Houston there are tons of BYB reproducing Pits at a crazy rate. 

No way could anyone prove different to me...I see it with my own eyes all the time. Just like the little girl I was talking about...tons of people like that.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Wow, I think Nerrej has been very diplomatic on this board thus far, and imagine that he would be even more so in person. 

I think it's something we can all try to do better. Eh?


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxNerrej I took your advise and read all yourt post on this topic. Now I'm sure of it you are the problem. Let's start by examining your posts. First:
> 
> " Do you have kids? My daughter took the trash outside yesterday. What if this dog was behind the trashcan and was startled by her. Then I would be writing here about my daughter's mangled face."
> 
> ...


I love selective reading. so what do you think of the part where the guy picks the dog up off the ground by the collar? And what don't you under stand about the opening statement of my post. Pit bull or not (yes its a pit bull) it wouldn't matter. I've already called on the neighbors next door to him who have 2 GSD's who were being left outside during severe weather conditions. 

Please just go away and stop reading this thread.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxHere's another satement i find strange:
> 
> "People like me would never lift a dog off the ground with his collar while choking him."
> 
> ...


That sounds nice and all but I'm no dog trainer. Thanks for your suggestion too though. And yah I did mention the thing about him lifting the dog off the ground. If you don't beleive me, go back and read strike #2 on my origninal post. There are no edits to that post. I guess you didn't read the entire post after all. 

Edit: I just read my own post over again, and dude, you must be the most uneducated person I've come across here. I mentioned at least a couple of times that I didn't think the dog was bad, but his owner was bad. I made a big point to say this as I always feel adn I always preach to people that no dog (esp pit bulls) are bad dogs. It the idiot owners. And what does me being black have to do with any thing?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: NerrejUpdate:
> My daughter just called from home saying that she was standing outside on the bus stop and the dog was running around out side and the owner was no where in sight.
> 
> Aggression towards dogs agression towards people. Makes no difference in this situation here since I have both.




Um, dog is running around off leash, where is the aggression? Was the dog snarling, growling at the kids or just running around loose? I didn't realize a dog that's running around outside is automatically aggressive? Did I miss something here?

You also state about the dog eyeing your dog in the back yard. Um most dogs are aware of their surroundings. Is it that your just afraid of this dog because it's a supposed "pit" 

running around and being aware doesn't constitute aggression for me, so I don't know where this is coming from. 

I would either suggest on training, maybe together with the owner, or just call it in so it can be put down so no one is afraid of the dog anymore. 

also, dog was lifted off the ground by it's collar, no where did it say the dog was being choked. 2 diff. things here.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

I don't know....people get mad over stupid things sometimes. He doesn't know this guy and guy could easily get set off because he's being confronted about the dog getting out. Even if he's nice in how he approaches the guy you don’t know the guy wouldn’t get offended. I would probably try and start up conversation with the guy first..about something other than the dog of course. Then kind of lead into it so that he doesn’t think you’re over there to tell him how to take care of his dog. 

You have to remember though he has to live next to this guy. It’s not good to not get along with neighbors…it can make life difficult.

I will say this too, if you call the cops they might kill the dog right off the bat. Some friends of mine bought a pup (pit) some years back. It died as a pup also though I don’t remember how but it was still very young. Anyway, they got another after that one passed away and when it was just over a year old it got out of the back yard. Someone called the police and the police shot it in someone’s yard (not sure why they decided to kill it but that's what happened). Well the dog ran off and the police couldn’t find it. My friends found it on the back porch dead…evidently it ran home after it had been hit. It was devastating to them especially after they lost the pup. That’s the story I was told…I didn’t talk to that particular friend anymore when it happened but a friend of mine who did told me about it.

Anyway…just something to keep in mind.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Angela, I'm just reporting the happenings as they go to keep everyone updated. I never said the dog running around un leashed in the streets is an act of aggression. But it is a sign of irresponsibility on behalf of the owner. The same owner who kicked the







out of this dog in his front yard. 

I also informed my daughter that when I ran into the dog, it seemed friendly. However, this doesn't mean things will change in the future if he continues to be mistreated the way he has been.

Please don't put words into my mouth Angela.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: NerrejUpdate:
> My daughter just called from home saying that she was standing outside on the bus stop and the dog was running around out side and the owner was no where in sight.
> 
> Aggression towards dogs agression towards people. Makes no difference in this situation here since I have both.


See your last sentence, how am I putting words in your mouth? I'm asking an honest question here based off of what you posted.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Then to make it easy on your conscience, call animal control for a dog running at large. It will probably lead to a needle for the dog. If he is indeed being raised by an abusive owner that is not a good life for the dog either. 

The only other option is restraining the dog when he is running loose and calling a rescue to come pick him up and possibly save his life.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: NerrejUpdate:
> ...


I was refering to someone who said dog agressive does not mean people aggressive. I was saying it doesn't matter, i have both people and a dog to worry about in my house.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

I think I got all of the info that I wanted. Thanks everyone.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Good luck in whatever direction you choose to go in.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Selective reading??????? Just quoted what you stated. Uneducated???????LOL. if you only knew.

"That sounds nice and all but I'm no dog trainer." Didin't you post how you showed you child how great your dog behaves compared to your neighbors??? If you have a dog, and you have trained it to sit, down, stay and made it well behaved YES you are a dog trainer. maybe not professional but enough to show someone how to have their dog behave. 

"I've already called on the neighbors next door to him who have 2 GSD's who were being left outside during severe weather conditions."

Did you first talk to this neighbor before calling. Kindly remind them about their dogs? I doubt it. Whatever happened to the days when neighbors knew each other and were friends. Friends enough to say "hey you know I think you may have forgotten to let your dogs in. I just wanted to let you know it's way too cold for them out here tonight..." 

Do I think you should have called on eiother neighbor? NO. Not until you tried to resolve the issue with the neighbor first. He maybe receptive. If he isn't, or the situation doesn't improve THEN tell him that for the dogs sake you will be calling the authorities.


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## george1990 (Nov 24, 2008)

Ouch. Even my gnads hurt after that.


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## khurley (Sep 25, 2004)

Personal attacks are not allowed on this board. Hence forth, I will delete any posts that contain them and will be issuing warnings to those who use them

For anyone who is unsure of the board rules, please take a moment to review them.

Thanks.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

"Telling someone to man up and grow a set and talk to his neighbor" isn't a personal attack Kim.


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## khurley (Sep 25, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: R. Mattox"Telling someone to man up and grow a set and talk to his neighbor" isn't a personal attack Kim.


It is in my opinion, it also violates board rules concerning causing contention and treating fellow board members with a certain level of respect regardless of varying viewpoints. Incidentally, that is not the only thing I removed from your post. If you'd like to discuss the matter further, please feel free to PM me or contact one of admin if you disagree with my decision.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Kimberly, please feel free to lock/delete this thread if it is just easier to do. Thank you.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

This really is a tough situation. Knowing that the breed is banned (however much I disagree with this) puts an entirely different spin on this. I am not certain I would report it to the authorities based on the info given. I owned a pitt once, she was the sweetest most adorable, loving baby in the world...and she got along with my girls just fine.....AND she was from a BYB (even though she was papered). I have also owned GSD's and had multiple issues with neighbors being afraid of my "vicious" dogs. My dear old Rottie (RIP) was the biggest teddy bear I have ever met in my entire life. One time she got out of the yard and a neighbor was outside. Mille happily ran up to her for some loving, and the poor old lady darn near had a heart attack. I dislike BSL for these reasons, good dogs and owners suffer. The owners that don't give a darn about their dogs really could care less if they have to get rid of them other than the fine and cost of replacing the dog that is taken away. When my DH did some time as an ACO (animal control) he recieved numerous calls about vicious pitts roaming loose, people being trapped in their cars by two loose pits, etc. Out of all these incidents, only one time was a pit declared dangerous (and it was not any of the ones I listed, nor did the dog bite anyone or maul anything). The others he picked up were not even aggressive towards him, or the other dogs in the runs at the pound. Our local communtiy have brought up petitions for BSL to be put into effect for our county/city....thank goodness it has not rallied the correct support to pass. I believe there is a problem when we give the "government" the power to tell us what kinds of pets we can have or can't have. Different people have different breeds that they fear, and I am certain that our GSD's are not far from the top of that list.


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## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Probably meaningless after reading all the posts but just thought I'd throw in that my daughter has a pitbull/boxer mix (Oliver) and also a purebred pit bull puppy, Zar. 

Oliver is 8-9 years and is one of the most well-mannered dogs I've ever seen/known. Zar...well, Zar is still a puppy but he's bright and funny and a delight to know (when he isn't piddling from sheer excitement being with my two GS's).

She socializes her pups from the very beginning (with dogs, cats, people, birds, snakes, etc.) and they are not the least bit aggressive towards anything/anyone. 

That's it.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree. I've been bitten by several GSDs. Pits? Never. They're typically exceedingly nice and very tolerant dogs. Their main problem is that a lot of the people that own them are using them and treating them in ways that would make ANY breed of dog dangerous.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Same here... I've been around many APBTs and Amstaffs and mixes in many situations and I've never been bitten or even growled at by one...that is between volunteering for shelters/rescue, working at boarding kennels, and working at a vet's office...and just going to many dog and pet events in the city where I see quite a few pitties as well. The only bad bite I've gotten was from a Golden Retriever (unneutered male) and required 9 stitches...


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## rena (Nov 19, 2005)

I too am a believer in having this breed put down. I dont care who owns one or how nice they seem to be. They are a ticking time bomb that could or could not go off at any moment. The dogs are so inbred from all the poor breeding that they have produced these beasts. People who have these dogs know the risk. The governments know this and that is why these dogs are becoming a banned breed. How many people had to die or get seriously injured for this to happen. To many.

Pit ownersr are to quick to say its because of the way they are treated. That is pure nonsense. Pits that have killed people have been treated like kings. Its the breed. Not the owners. 

I have had two run ins with pit bulls with my gs and both times the police were called and the officers on one incident were very upset with the owners as the dog had already been banned from other parks. I have a good friend that has one but I am wary of it and stay away from it when I am over to the bests of my ability. Yes it is sweet. But why should I take the chance that this one is not going to go off? Its a numbers game with this breed and Im not into gambling with my life.

Our new neighbours have two dogs and one is a pit bull. It doesnt bark like normal dogs. It makes this viscous gurgling growly bark. The lady wouldnt admit her dog was a pit when I confronted her on it. But she knew right away what all of our feelings were on the animal and she knows that dog if it ever got loose that she wouldnt be getting it back again. The police dont take kindly to them here either.

What I have heard it is because of all the inbreeding pits brains are to big for their skull and that there is constant pressure and so they can snap at any time. I also notice people that own these dogs usually are ones who have one or more of the following:

Been in jail
and/or have a criminal record 
And/or they are rebeling against society in some sort and are angry so getting one is part of that. (eg bikers)

My friends have a couple of the above characteristics and they have a pit. And pretty much anyone I have talked to in chat or on forums or met in life have these characteristics. These are not labels. These are just factual observations over the years.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Oh, man..


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rena
> 
> What I have heard it is because of all the inbreeding pits brains are to big for their skull and that there is constant pressure and so they can snap at any time.


i just woke up and am a little groggy, so i know i did not just read THAT. let me go throw some cold water on my face..ill be right back......................................................................ok, im back. holy lord have mercy! someone did write that.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfOh, man..


Me too Patti!


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

I said i'm quitting this thread but I can't stand that people missed my main point.

GSDlove212, Diane, pupresq, and Chicanine. I've also had plenty of great experience with Pit bulls, My old rottwieller had one as a bff. 

The one in this story however is being abused and neglected by its owner. I'm sorry, but I love dogs. Even as a kid when I owned them and had no idea what I was doing, I knew it was wrong to pick one up by the collar and choke it.


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rena
> What I have heard it is because of all the inbreeding pits brains are to big for their skull and that there is constant pressure and so they can snap at any time. I also notice people that own these dogs usually are ones who have one or more of the following:
> 
> Been in jail
> ...


Wow..... you just made personal attacks to at least 50% of the people that have posted in this thread since most of us either own or have owned in the past a pit mix, pit, or another bully breed! You even managed to slam bikers too! Shame on you!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Wow. There are just so many different things to say. But let's start with some clarifications, because I'm sure we can all agree it would be a terrible thing to condemn an entire breed based on misperceptions.


> Quote: The dogs are so inbred from all the poor breeding that they have produced these beasts.


What is their inbreeding coefficient compared to other breeds? Also curious about their frequency of genetic disorder compared to oh, say, GSDs?


> Quote: Pits that have killed people have been treated like kings.


Specific examples please!







And relative frequency would be great.


> Quote: What I have heard it is because of all the inbreeding pits brains are to big for their skull and that there is constant pressure and so they can snap at any time.


I think you're thinking of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. They have sort of rounded heads too. Easy mistake to make.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I know a ton of responsible people, in RL and on the internet, who own well-behaved Pit Bulls.
Just because the breed is popular among criminals doesn't make it a bad breed. Sorry, but that's like saying that a certain race is bad because that race has the highest crime rate.

Funny how all the people who are bashing the breed haven't said anything about the part of my post where I said Pit Bulls, specifically some of Michael Vick's Pits post-rehabilitation, have been therapy dogs.


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

This topic really should be closed...it's not going to get any better and it's probably gone on long enough.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Even if it has strayed off the original topic a bit (threads often do), as the owners of a breed about which there are MANY of the same stereotypes, this is a really important topic to discuss. Today it's Pit Bulls and Rottweilers but GSDs aren't far behind and are already on most "dangerous" breed lists with everyone from rental companies to insurance companies.

ETA: I'm seeing very little in the way of facts and figures to back up what people think they "know" about Pits and other so-called "bully breeds." Correlation does not imply causation. Tough guy breeds change through the years.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqEven if it has strayed off the original topic a bit (threads often do), as the owners of a breed about which there are MANY of the same stereotypes, this is a really important topic to discuss.


I agree, only if people would actually read the posts as you obviously have done (thank you.) In my area, its not only Pit Bulls that are banned but all dogs that come anywhere close to looking like one (they just say terriers but I'm sure Jack Russels won't get taken away.) I found this out because when I decided I was ready to get a dog, I checked with the cities rules and regulations. And I actually did want a Pit Bull but I saw they were not allowed. I did the same check when I decided I wanted to start looking for a GSD.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote: What I have heard it is because of all the inbreeding pits brains are to big for their skull and that there is constant pressure and so they can snap at any time.
> ...


They may also be confusing it with that old myth about Dobermans... It's funny that it is being attributed to APBTs now (well, not really funny so much as sad.) Yes, the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel breed is prone to a problem with their skulls are too small but it does not cause aggression.


As for a certain element owning "pit bulls" I think that is mostly due to their reputation as a "big mean macho dog" than anything else. In my area it is mostly yuppies who own pit bull type dogs and I am sure they will be thrilled to know that they are all criminals who are rebelling against society. I know numerous "pit bull" type dogs who are therapy dogs and service dogs and I have a feeling if it was a fact that dogs of those breeds are "ticking time bombs" they would have never been allowed to join the animal assisted therapy organizations.

Here's a pair from one of the organizations I volunteer with (which by the way has a VERY tough certification test):


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

Did the GSD have the reputation in the 60's and 70's of being the "Murder Dog" breed? 

(And by "Murder Dog" I refer to breeds which get bad names due to crap owners and raising, friends I know will use this term jokingly who own the breeds with one another)


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> 
> As for a certain element owning "pit bulls" I think that is mostly due to their reputation as a "big mean macho dog" than anything else. In my area it is mostly yuppies who own pit bull type dogs and I am sure they will be thrilled to know that they are all criminals who are rebelling against society.


Obviously not everyone who owns one is a thug. In fact my sister-in-law has 2 (one hers and one is her BF's)

That said the Pit Bull is pretty much the official dog of the ghetto here in Houston. It's pretty much all you will ever see in the bad parts of town. And in most cases the guys wearing the Pit T-shirt are the same guys wearing the scareface T-shirts (not saying that everyone that wears a scareface T-shirt is a thug but even the wannabe thugs favor Pits). And obviously the pit is going to be popular in the bad parts of town because there is usually a lot of dog fighting going on in those areas (not only those areas of course).

So the point is we really shouldn't act like the Pit Bull doesn't attract the dirt balls because they sure do and I see bigtime. At the same time obviously not everyone who has a pit is this way either. A LOT of really good people just love the breed.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Smith3Did the GSD have the reputation in the 60's and 70's of being the "Murder Dog" breed?


I think so, it was the GSD and then the Doberman in the 70s and Rotties in the 80s and now the pit bulls are the media's 'big bad wolf'.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Love the picture of the therapy dogs. This is the way it's s'posed to be. 
I would like to recommend that Nerrej have a look at the thread about the lady who trained her neighbors little dogs not to bark. As I understand his post, he is afraid that his neighbor's poor treatment will cause the young dog to become aggressive, which I think is a reasonable concern. Perhaps if he is uneasy about speaking to the owner directly, he might try a few socializing techniques with the pup, give him treats, speak nicely to him, teach him to come and sit, perhaps, maybe down, encourage some non aggressive behaviors so that he could have a bit of a handle on the dog to help him avoid problems later on. 
I worry about BSl. German Shepherds are certainly on the list to be obliterated, and I would be lost without my aide dog, as would a great many people without the dogs that help them. I am rememded of a story about the man in Germany during the rise of the Nazis. He did not speak up when they came for the Jews, because he was not a Jew. He did not speak up when them came for the teachers, because he was not a teacher. He did not speak up when they came for the Gypsies, because he was not a Gypsy. He did not speak up when they came for the Catholics, because he was not a Catholic. Then they came for him, and there was no one to speak up for him, because everyone else was gone. 
I believe that if we are to keep our Shepherds, we must speak up for all dogs, so that the owners of the dogs for whom we speak will support us. khawk


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: khawk
> I worry about BSl. German Shepherds are certainly on the list to be obliterated, and I would be lost without my aide dog, as would a great many people without the dogs that help them. I am rememded of a story about the man in Germany during the rise of the Nazis. He did not speak up when they came for the Jews, because he was not a Jew. He did not speak up when them came for the teachers, because he was not a teacher. He did not speak up when they came for the Gypsies, because he was not a Gypsy. He did not speak up when they came for the Catholics, because he was not a Catholic. Then they came for him, and there was no one to speak up for him, because everyone else was gone.
> I believe that if we are to keep our Shepherds, we must speak up for all dogs, so that the owners of the dogs for whom we speak will support us. khawk


Good post.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

To the OP: one more thing to consider; if you do report the guy and the dog gets put down, what will stop your neighbor from getting another dog the next day? Pit or not pit, if not trained or managed well, you will have another one running lose and staring at you soon enough.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

That is a great post khawk. Thanks.

Andrea, If I call city hall, they will ticket and fine the neighbor and they will say that he must get rid of the dog in x number of days. They don't come and get him and take him to the death chamber. 

This dog didn't stare at me. he came and licked my hand. I'm sure after being beat and choked a few more times, he may not be as friendly. Maybe he will? Would you risk it?

He did stare at my dog, what does it mean when they just are standing there and staring at eachother?

And for the record, I haven't called on the pitbull owner yet. I'm still trying to figure out the proper way to handle it. There has some been some good advice here so far. Thanks for that. Some advice hasn't been so good. Thanks to you all too.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

The way I see it is even if you don't like "pit bulls" you should fight breed-specific legislation and breed bans if you own a dog because while today pit bulls may be the ones being banned your breed could easily be next! German Shepherd owners especially should be concerned because German Shepherds ARE on the banned breeds list in some areas and they are being targeted by insurance companies as "dangerous dogs" as well. German Shepherds are high on the lists of dog bite statistics as well. Additionally in some areas all dogs over a certain size are banned, regardless of breed or merit.

Another way to look at it is if they somehow truly completely eradicated "pit bulls" or at least the three breeds most commonly called pit bulls (meaning American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier) what do you think would happen? There would be a different breed or breeds that would become popular as the "macho" dog or "guard dog" and the dog bite statistics would show a different breed as causing the most dog bites, and then what? Ban that breed as well? Ok, what about when German Shepherds come up at the top of that list? Labrador Retrievers? (yes Labs are involved in quite a few dog attacks because like 'pit bulls' and GSDs they are very popular-- more dogs of the breed means more bites by those dogs, which is why dog bite statistics are not the best judge of "dangerous breeds".)

Yet another way to look at it is these are dogs who are losing their homes or their lives through no fault of their own. How many "pit bulls" or dogs who resemble "pit bulls" do you think are living in a major US city? Out of all those "pit bulls" how many do you think have bitten people? Is it fair for all those dogs who are family pets, therapy dogs, service dogs, beloved companions to lose their lives just because they are a certain breed, or just because they have muscular bodies and blocky heads? In many breed bans they don't even specify a specific breed of dog, they either ban all "pit bulls" which could actually be one of a number of different breeds since there is no actual single breed with the name "pit bull" -- OR in some cases they say that any dog that LOOKS LIKE or RESEMBLES a "pit bull" is banned. This could include dozens of breeds and mixes.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

ok, so i ask again... What will stop that guy from repeating the same mistakes with a new dog soon? That, I think, is the heart of this whole problem; the human, not the dog.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

I agree, that is the problem Andrea. My guess would be he wouldn't like being fined. He lives with his mom and I would think she wouldn't be happy with him bringing dogs that will get her tickets. But I do get what you are saying. even if he left there, he could still get another dog and abuse it. But I'm no teacher, I suppose I could try getting some pamphlets sent. lets see where that goes. Like I said, the dog seems to be a very nice dog. He didn't have a problem following me to the house (was scared to death of his own human though) Like I said I'm lost on what to do.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Nerrej He lives with his mom and I would think she wouldn't be happy with him bringing dogs that will get her tickets.


maybe that is another avenue to consider. do you perceive that the mother might be receptive to any type of intervention.


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## george1990 (Nov 24, 2008)

You may have your own opinion, but most of it is just spewing nonsense.

Inbreeding pits make their brains too big for their skull? What is this, the 60's? 

Here's the ATT test that we all see on these forums, but it's truth. http://www.atts.org/stats4.html 

American Pit Bull Terriers score as high as the GSD at about 83.4% 

After doing research for my psychology class, I found out that every year in the US, about 2,000 children die from filicide (death from parents). Every year, an estimate 2.5, let's round to 3, "pit bulls" kill someone in the US. You are 800+ times more likely to die from a parent than from that pit bull down the street.

Pit bulls are probably THE most popular dog in the United States as well. An estimated 72 million dogs are in the US. (http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/sourcebook.asp). Let's say that about 1/5 are considered "pit bull type" dogs (it should be more, as there are 20+ dogs that people mistake with pit bulls), so there are 14,400,000 pit bulls in the US.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Smith3Did the GSD have the reputation in the 60's and 70's of being the "Murder Dog" breed?
> 
> (And by "Murder Dog" I refer to breeds which get bad names due to crap owners and raising, friends I know will use this term jokingly who own the breeds with one another)


There was a quote I saw from back then stating basically what is stated about Pit Bulls these days and saying that a rattle snake would be a better pet than a GSD. The quote disgusts me, even if it's old.
I can't find it.


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## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Okay, I've read (even posted once in) this entire thread, Nerrej. Although many have said something similar; i.e. that all pit balls are not bad, that owners are the ones responsible for how any dog turns out, that there are pit bulls who have given the entire breed a bad name, that pit bulls (or dogs closely resembling pitties) are the dog of choice for the 'gangsta' types, that there have been times when several other breeds have been called 'bad' before (Dobies, GSD's, Rotties, etc.), that all pit bull owners (including my 5'1" daughter) are great people with great dogs..and on and on....all contradictory and not related to what you seem to see as your problem.

They don't seem to address your concerns. However, your concerns are inciting some of the comments you've received. Your attitude towards pit bulls in general and the owner of the particular pit bull in question are very...hmmm how shall I put this?...testy. 

Frankly, you have the answer to your problem at hand. Pit bulls are not allowed in your neighborhood. The young man across the street has a pit bull. Ergo, he is committing a crime. Turn him in and stop picking and poking at how worried you are. I'm sure you can do it anonymously.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Nerrej, sorry to see that you've been attacked on this thread - that shouldn't have happened. I can fully understand your concern. ANY dog, of ANY breed, who is abused and/or neglected and/or improperly socialized can end up with aggression problems. And when you're talking about a large, strong, muscular type dog that is bred to be dog aggressive and who is running around loose part of the time, coming onto your property - well, your concerns are completely valid.

It's difficult for people to approach a stranger (especially when that stranger knows WHERE you live) to give advice that may very well be taken badly. As a trainer, I have dealt with thousands of pet people over the years and not all of them accept help with a good attitude, regardless of how diplomatically it's offered. I would hesitate, too, to expose children and family pets to the potential backlash of an angry neighbor. None of us know this guy with the dog, and none of us should be thinking badly of Nerrej for not choosing to go over and talk to this guy. 

On the subject of pitbulls .. well, personally, they're not a breed I enjoy, and I'll be entirely honest about why. The ones I've had in classes have been okay up to a point, but a good percentage of them have shown a breaking point where they lose their good behavior. For example, we had one that just loved the tunnel. But after going through the tunnel a couple of times, with her excitement growing each time, she became so frenzied that she started showing aggressiveness toward dogs and people when approached. Unfortunately I've seen this in a number of this breed. And when I talk to pitbull breeders (and I'm talking American Pit Bull Terriers), they talk about how part of the history of the breed is the dog fighting, and that it's normal (and okay) for pitbulls to be dog aggressive. As long as pitbull breeders continue to think this is okay, and to continue to breed this characteristic into the breed, they're going to be fighting a losing battle with the reputation of the pitbull. 

I understand people wanting to keep the "proper" characteristics of a breed, but when it creates a problem with the dogs being a viable part of today's society, breeders need to re-think things. 

I live next to a trailer court - I would be concerned if the people there started bringing in pitbulls. I would be worried about my dogs and how I could protect them from the natural instincts of that breed. And yes, it's bad ownership - but honestly, people, is that really going to make a difference when your dog is hurt and bleeding because a dog that's bred for aggression came over and chewed on her? Let's push for responsible ownership AND responsible breeding so that this breed can be "normal" and not create the fears that it currently creates.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: HatterasserOkay, I've read (even posted once in) this entire thread, Nerrej. Although many have said something similar; i.e. that all pit balls are not bad, that owners are the ones responsible for how any dog turns out, that there are pit bulls who have given the entire breed a bad name, that pit bulls (or dogs closely resembling pitties) are the dog of choice for the 'gangsta' types, that there have been times when several other breeds have been called 'bad' before (Dobies, GSD's, Rotties, etc.), that all pit bull owners (including my 5'1" daughter) are great people with great dogs..and on and on....all contradictory and not related to what you seem to see as your problem.
> 
> They don't seem to address your concerns. However, your concerns are inciting some of the comments you've received. Your attitude towards pit bulls in general and the owner of the particular pit bull in question are very...hmmm how shall I put this?...testy.
> 
> Frankly, you have the answer to your problem at hand. Pit bulls are not allowed in your neighborhood. The young man across the street has a pit bull. Ergo, he is committing a crime. Turn him in and stop picking and poking at how worried you are. I'm sure you can do it anonymously.


What did I say about Pit Bulls that was "testy?"


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestNerrej, sorry to see that you've been attacked on this thread - that shouldn't have happened. I can fully understand your concern. ANY dog, of ANY breed, who is abused and/or neglected and/or improperly socialized can end up with aggression problems. And when you're talking about a large, strong, muscular type dog that is bred to be dog aggressive and who is running around loose part of the time, coming onto your property - well, your concerns are completely valid.
> 
> It's difficult for people to approach a stranger (especially when that stranger knows WHERE you live) to give advice that may very well be taken badly. As a trainer, I have dealt with thousands of pet people over the years and not all of them accept help with a good attitude, regardless of how diplomatically it's offered. I would hesitate, too, to expose children and family pets to the potential backlash of an angry neighbor. None of us know this guy with the dog, and none of us should be thinking badly of Nerrej for not choosing to go over and talk to this guy.
> 
> ...


Great post...agree 100%!


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Still, the fact remains that Nerrej has a bad dog owner for a neighbor, and as he, as well as others have already said, we all have pretty limited powers to change somebody else's behavior; so here's the question, really: what can anybody do about someone else's irresponsibility? I can totally understand why he might be hesitant to talk to this guy; but let's say he does and nothing changes; then what? He can call animal control, they might take the dog; then the owner can easily get another. So really, is there any way to make sure this problem is solved for good?


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

Do you suggest I do nothing Andrea?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I don't think that's an option either from your previous posts. 

Basically it boils down to, over the last 6 pages, that you need to either live and let live, or call animal control since it is against the law. 

If you like, pm with the information, a/c number and I'll do it for you if you don't want to get involved as he is a neighbor.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

I'd talk to the neighbor first and voice your concerns.

If they continue to let the animal roam around, unleashed, unsupervised, I'd call Animal Control.

The dog is unknown, you don't know if it has a soft mouth, it could be spooked and do damage to the children. 

If the person cared about the animal, in the slightest bit, they'd keep it under their control.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

To the OP, I am not even trying to impose or interpret your feelings on the breed, I was merely just giving you my input on the breed. 

If the question is "do I report an abusive owner (of any breed) or if I suspect abusive behavior?" then my answer is yes. It is up to the ACOs and Police to discern if there is abuse going on. And they can not do that if they do not know about it. So if you truely feel that you have witnessed abuse, then I would advise you to call....not to report the neighbor's ownership of a pit, but becuase you feel you have witnessed abuse and that situation needs to be looked into.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

GSDlove, that is indeed what it comes down to. Like I had mentioned, I don't mind him having a pit, I alarm went off when I saw what he did to the dog in public. Like you said, it really doesn't matter what kind of dog it is. 

However, my call to the city hall will go in as a simple report of a banned dog being in the area. I'd rather it not go down as an official abuse report even though that is the real reason.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

I must respectfully disagree. My reason is this......if you do suspect or believe there is abuse then it doesn't matter what kind of dog he owns...he will likely be abusive. So if you only report the illegal ownership of the breed, he has to get rid of the dog...that does not affect him getting another dog (likely a legally allowed one) and treating it the same way. If he is investigated for abusive behavior to his dog and is in fact found guilty, it could make it harder for him to get another dog to abuse. Just food for thought I guess. Ultimately you have to decide what you are willing to do.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: NerrejDo you suggest I do nothing Andrea?


you stated this guy lived with his mother. maybe appealing to her senses in some fashion would work. if its her house, she probably doesnt want any hassles/fines coming her way.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: gsdlove212I must respectfully disagree. My reason is this......if you do suspect or believe there is abuse then it doesn't matter what kind of dog he owns...he will likely be abusive. So if you only report the illegal ownership of the breed, he has to get rid of the dog...that does not affect him getting another dog (likely a legally allowed one) and treating it the same way. If he is investigated for abusive behavior to his dog and is in fact found guilty, it could make it harder for him to get another dog to abuse. Just food for thought I guess. Ultimately you have to decide what you are willing to do.


good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

This thread was started the morning of February 2, 2009. It is now February 13, 2009. That is the better part of 2 weeks you have done NOTHING. At least nothing to help this dog. You've just whinned on this board. How can we truely think you are worried about this animals welfare? Two weeks of supposed abuse you've allowed to continue. 

Personally I think there is just a troll under that bridge.


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## kcox82 (Nov 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: renaI too am a believer in having this breed put down. I dont care who owns one or how nice they seem to be. They are a ticking time bomb that could or could not go off at any moment. The dogs are so inbred from all the poor breeding that they have produced these beasts. People who have these dogs know the risk. The governments know this and that is why these dogs are becoming a banned breed. How many people had to die or get seriously injured for this to happen. To many.
> 
> Pit ownersr are to quick to say its because of the way they are treated. That is pure nonsense. Pits that have killed people have been treated like kings. Its the breed. Not the owners.
> 
> ...


I guess since I own a rescued "pit bull" and I also have a motorcycle that my husband and I ride... I was going to think of something clever to say but am really just too appalled by that statement to say anything. Ignorant people....


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: R. Mattox*** You are ignoring this user ***


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## kcox82 (Nov 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxThis thread was started the morning of February 2, 2009. It is now February 13, 2009. That is the better part of 2 weeks you have done NOTHING. At least nothing to help this dog. You've just whinned on this board. How can we truely think you are worried about this animals welfare? Two weeks of supposed abuse you've allowed to continue.
> 
> Personally I think there is just a troll under that bridge.


I would have to agree with above statement after reading this whole thread. I understand that you feel it is difficult decision to make, but if you truly cared about this animal something would have been done by now either way.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

I guess I don't care then. i guess every one wasted their time here. Sorry. Move along, there is nothing to see here.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Nerrej
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: R. Mattox*** You are ignoring this user ***



AAAWWW He's ignoring me. It's not really me he's ignoring. It's this, supposed, poor dog that he says is being teated so badly. FOR THE PAST 12 DAYS!!!! While he tries to get people to say he's not a bad person for not talking to his neighbor and just calling the law. IF THIS IS EVEN A REAL SITUATION. Think about it folks. Would you sit by and do nothing if you saw a dog being abused???? I doubt it.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I am not one to close threads very often. But since I don't see a lot of constructive things happening I believe that it has run it's course. So I am closing it.


Wisc.Tiger - Admin


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