# All the things I should be doing



## Winnal

What are *ALL* the things I should do before I decide to breed or determine whether my dog is breeding worthy? A list would be nice.

And what about *ALL* the things that go *well beyond the minimum requirements*? At the highest level of breeding? Like Lord's Schutzhund/IPO training.

Like maybe different categories?

Health (OFA, OFEL, DM, etc)
Training (Schutzhund/IPO, agility, tracking, K9, etc)
Clubs (where to find them, what different ones there are) in the PNW
Events (different events around the world and locally)
Titles (all the different possible titles and how to get them)

What else? I know I can go hunt all over the forums in each respective section, but just for the sake of breeding/simply working/proving your dog, a compiled list would be very helpful I think.

I would like to know immediate actions I can take and straight forward steps to take rather than discussing the nature of breeding like choosing complimentary mates and temperament, feel free to bring it up if need be, but I mainly want to locate the/a source(s) where I can go and gain all the necessary information by going to the access point so to speak.

I am good at learning as I observe in real-time, but of course first gather all the necessary concepts and groundwork of understanding, so if I can go to a club or event that would explain all this it would be the most effective way I think.


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## Glaicer

For Schutzhund specifically, find a club, go meet the members and watch the training. If you are a good fit, the club will extend membership to you. Stay quiet, listen, and observe. You will realize that you dog most likely isn't the best candidate for breeding and that's ok. Train your current dog and become a better handler for your next dog. Find a mentor, someone who's really willing to take you under their wing. Schutzhund has a way of exposing weaknesses in your dog you might not see otherwise. Search the United Schutzhund Club of America's site to find a list of clubs by region.


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## Winnal

Glaicer said:


> For Schutzhund specifically, find a club, go meet the members and watch the training. If you are a good fit, the club will extend membership to you. Stay quiet, listen, and observe. You will realize that you dog most likely isn't the best candidate for breeding and that's ok. Train your current dog and become a better handler for your next dog. Find a mentor, someone who's really willing to take you under their wing. Schutzhund has a way of exposing weaknesses in your dog you might not see otherwise. Search the United Schutzhund Club of America's site to find a list of clubs by region.


Yes, I have already found clubs in my region, will be joining/going to one soon.



> You will realize that you dog most likely isn't the best candidate for breeding and that's ok.


Why do you think this? Any reason in particular? Have you seen my dog's pedigree? She has a Lord in her bloodline, one of the top working-line dog breeders in Schutzhund IPO (I linked the thread in OP). And I know this doesn't guarantee anything, but at least I know for a fact that Schutzhund trained dogs are in her bloodline.


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## Glaicer

Winnal said:


> Yes, I have already found clubs in my region, will be joining/going to one soon.
> 
> 
> Why do you think this? Any reason in particular? Have you seen my dog's pedigree? She has a Lord in her bloodline, one of the top working-line dog breeders in Schutzhund IPO (I linked the thread in OP). And I know this doesn't guarantee anything, but at least I know for a fact that Schutzhund trained dogs are in her bloodline.


One famous dog in the pedigree doesn't mean anything. How the pedigree blends together is what matter. Is your dog a good example of it's genetics? My first dog, is from titled working stock, yet he wasn't the best example of the bloodlines behind him. Doesn't mean he was a bad dog, all it means is that he's not a good candidate for breeding. You only want the best example of bloodlines breeding so that you have the greatest chance of passing on the positive traits.

Here is his pedigree. If you look, he has several famous dogs in his bloodlines, yet those famous dogs behind him do squat to prove breedworthiness. 
Baccus z vom Weberhaus

Also Lord, I'm assuming you mean Lord vom Gleisdreieck was a very good dog, but his accomplishments aren't your dog's accomplishments.


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## Winnal

Glaicer said:


> One famous dog in the pedigree doesn't mean anything. How the pedigree blends together is what matter. Is your dog a good example of it's genetics? My first dog, is from titled working stock, yet he wasn't the best example of the bloodlines behind him. Doesn't mean he was a bad dog, all it means is that he's not a good candidate for breeding. You only want the best example of bloodlines breeding so that you have the greatest chance of passing on the positive traits.
> 
> Here is his pedigree. If you look, he has several famous dogs in his bloodlines, yet those famous dogs behind him do squat to prove breedworthiness.
> Baccus z vom Weberhaus
> 
> Also Lord, I'm assuming you mean Lord vom Gleisdreieck was a very good dog, but his accomplishments aren't your dog's accomplishments.


Sure, but there's a higher chance that's all. But I know what you're saying of course, it's no guarantee.

Here's the one I'm talking about:
Lord von den Grauen von Monstab


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## Glaicer

Winnal said:


> Sure, but there's a higher chance that's all. But I know what you're saying of course, it's no guarantee.
> 
> Here's the one I'm talking about:
> Lord von den Grauen von Monstab


It doesn't really, every GSD has a famous parent, grandparent, or great grand parent. It's obvious you love your dog, but you can't let that blind you. I want to breed eventually, but it's a process. To do it right you will have to spend several years working different dogs, observing other peoples dogs, learning pedigrees, finding out your likes and dislikes. You might find there's a particular bloodline you favor, but then you must learn the what positive traits and what negative traits of that particular bloodlines. When you finally learn that you must learn which bloodlines cross well, and which don't. It's several years worth of study to be able to pick out a particular partner for your bitch, let alone actually breeding them after you've done the proper health testing(not just going to your vet, actually submitting your x-rays for evaluation) and titling. 

I love my boy, he taught be to be a better owner, and handler. He introduced me to schutzhund, without him I would have never found my club or my mentor, but I'm not blind to what he shows me about himself. I just purchased my current pup(different bloodlines) and Bogo seems to be a better representative of his pedigree. Here's his pedigree.


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## Winnal

Glaicer said:


> It doesn't really, every GSD has a famous parent, grandparent, or great grand parent. It's obvious you love your dog, but you can't let that blind you. I want to breed eventually, but it's a process. To do it right you will have to spend several years working different dogs, observing other peoples dogs, learning pedigrees, finding out your likes and dislikes. You might find there's a particular bloodline you favor, but then you must learn the what positive traits and what negative traits of that particular bloodlines. When you finally learn that you must learn which bloodlines cross well, and which don't. It's several years worth of study to be able to pick out a particular partner for your bitch, let alone actually breeding them after you've done the proper health testing(not just going to your vet, actually submitting your x-rays for evaluation) and titling.
> 
> I love my boy, he taught be to be a better owner, and handler. He introduced me to schutzhund, without him I would have never found my club or my mentor, but I'm not blind to what he shows me about himself. I just purchased my current pup(different bloodlines) and Bogo seems to be a better representative of his pedigree. Here's his pedigree.


I suppose. It's really not up to me, but rather the tests that have to be passed when it comes down to it. I understand how long the process can be, well, good thing I have plenty of time even if it's this dog. And also, do realize that even if the dog isn't some superbreed or whatever, just like you say, just because there are famous dogs in their blood doesn't mean the litter will be just as good, so the same goes the other way around, just because a dog is normal, doesn't mean it can't produce an outstanding litter, as long as you are as sure as possible that at the very least it is healthy and doesn't have genetic faults prone to be passed on that's the main issue, I believe. Of course the more experienced you are the more you may be able to breed more consistently high quality breeds, like pairing, etc., but in the end it's all in hopes of passing on the right genes/traits.


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## gsdsar

I may be mistaken, but the thread you linked was Not the Lord in your dogs pedigree. That dog in the video is Lord v Gleisdreiek. 


Looks like you already have a nice list going. Some things like locations of trials and shows, you are going to have find for yourself. I live in Maryland, so researching show opportunities in the PNW is not high on my to do list. 

There are quite a few good GSD breeders out that way. How about contacting one and seeing if they would be open to a mentorship.


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## JnK

Not a breeder, and new to this particular breed (not new to dogs), so take this for what it's worth...but a lot of this will carry over. Stream of consciousness blabber to follow:

Start by going out and getting first hand, real world experience. Train and title your dog to prove its ability. CGC isn't enough to say your dog is ready for breeding, but absolutely start there to see if you enjoy working with your dog. Then move on to bigger and better things. Give some other disclipine a try...don't stop at the novice title. Prove to everyone that you have an amazing dog. Observe other dogs at shows and trials and see if you can learn about them. Research, research, research. Know the major lines you will be working with and what they bring to the table. Having met the dogs personally really helps here. Find out what genetics you like, decide the purpose of breeding certain dogs/lines and what you would hope to accomplish and produce from the results of your breeding. Talk with lots of breeders. Don't be in a rush to do anything, if you decide to be a breeder it will be a years-long journey, not a destination of having a litter of puppies. Be a good, reputable, breeder that people can trust by learning as much as you can about every single facet of owning, taking care of, and training the breed. Ask yourself lots of brutal questions and be completely honest with yourself when you answer. When you find some breeders that produce amazing dogs, ask if they will mentor you. Nobody can learn all this stuff on their own. Having a mentor will allow you to get answers to questions you don't even know exist when starting out. A good mentor can hold your hand through tough decisions and help you celebrate in the good times. They should become a friend. 

How many examples of the breed have you owned/interacted with? How old are you and where in life are you? What are your biggest worries and concerns?

I hope you can learn a lot here and go on to be successful in what you choose to do! I think from what I have seen in the successful breeders I have met over the years is that they all took their time in educating themselves about every aspect of the breed. Not internet education, but real life education by meeting as many dogs as they could, learning what to look for, being able to interpret what they saw, and having a vision of what they wished to produce.


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## cliffson1

If you NEED a list of things to determine if your dog is breedworthy, then YOU probably are not ready to be breeding. And I don't mean that flippantly. I mean that breeding is more art than science based on knowledge and experience.....once you acquire knowledge THROUGH experience you will begin to understand what you don't understand and can't be explained in words.
Get out there and do some high level training and experience some quality breeding dogs....then you have a start of at least comparing your dog to something tangible.


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## carmspack

Lord v Grauen Monstab and Lord Gleisdreieck very very different dogs.

then you would want to understand the pedigree , Lord Grauen Monstab's dam Sindy Schaferliesel and Boban
Grauen Monstab.

IF that is the Lord dog in your pedigree


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## Castlemaid

> And what about ALL the things that go well beyond the minimum requirements? At the highest level of breeding? Like Lord's Schutzhund/IPO training.


I just wanted to point out, that Schutzhund/IPO titles ARE Minimum requirements. Schutzhund was designed as a Breed Test, meaning that only the dogs that earned a minimum of SchH I would be considered breedworthy. This is still a requirement in the SV. That is why so many of the pedigrees of German Showlines and Working lines have nothing BUT SchH titled dogs in their pedigree - without titling, the dogs did not qualify for breeding, and their offspring would not be allowed to be registered. 

So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.


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## Dainerra

This is the very first thing I was told 18 years ago when I started researching what it took to get a GOOD german shepherd that might be breeding potential. 

"What is WRONG with your dog?" Yes, you need to know your dog's good traits but until you can objectively sit down with someone and explain every fault that your dog has, without being offended, you aren't remotely ready to breed. Let alone ready to compete. 

People will talk about your dog. They will mention his good points but they will even more loudly point out his flaws. And many of them won't be nearly as nice as the people here have been. Often, going to a working club, they can be even more skeptical of "unusually colored dogs" mostly because they come into it with the idea that the dog was likely not from a responsible breeder. And, again, they can be mean about it.

That thick skin is the first, and most important, step in becoming a breeder. Second is the ability to separate your feelings and love from your dog from your breeding. Third is an objective outlook at the idea of breeding and where a particular dog falls in the spectrum.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Glaicer said:


> Here's his pedigree.


Is he on the Pedigree Database site? Only people who are subscribed to the working dog site can view your link.


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## holland

I don't think I am subscribed to the site and I could see it-Glacier wasn't the OP


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## Sunsilver

Dainerra said:


> This is the very first thing I was told 18 years ago when I started researching what it took to get a GOOD german shepherd that might be breeding potential.
> 
> "What is WRONG with your dog?" Yes, you need to know your dog's good traits but until you can objectively sit down with someone and explain every fault that your dog has, without being offended, you aren't remotely ready to breed. Let alone ready to compete.
> 
> People will talk about your dog. They will mention his good points but they will even more loudly point out his flaws. And many of them won't be nearly as nice as the people here have been. Often, going to a working club, they can be even more skeptical of "unusually colored dogs" mostly because they come into it with the idea that the dog was likely not from a responsible breeder. And, again, they can be mean about it.
> 
> T*hat thick skin is the first, and most important, step in becoming a breeder. Second is the ability to separate your feelings and love from your dog from your breeding. Third is an objective outlook at the idea of breeding and where a particular dog falls in the spectrum.*


THIS, a hundred times, this!!

As I explained to you in my last PM, I took a LOT of flack from certain club members because my dog was a mix of American and German showlines, and of course, ASLs have NO working ability, according to some people, and the German showlines are almost as useless. Proved 'em wrong, of course! But people are always going to find something to pick on, in any competitive sport. I put up with exactly the same thing when I used to ride. You learn to grow a thick skin pretty quickly.

Lord vom Gliesdrieck is the famous dog I found multiple times in the 7th and 8th generation of her dog's pedigree. The other Lord is there, too, but Winnal has confused the two. However, as an experienced breeder will tell you, it's the more recent generations of the pedigree that have the biggest influence on the dog, and well, those aren't all that great. Dad's side is better than mom's, and after looking at the colours of the dogs in the pedigree, I think I can see where her dog's colour came from. The colours are mostly sable, and a number of them are rather faded silver sables, with white underneath.

I've strongly advised her to get DNA done, so she has a good comeback when people insist the dog isn't purebred. I think it most likely is. And given the pedigree, I think the potential to make a good working dog is definitely there, too.


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## Cassidy's Mom

holland said:


> I don't think I am subscribed to the site and I could see it-*Glacier wasn't the OP*


I know, I was curious about her dog's pedigree, but when I clicked on Glacier's link, it didn't work.  It said this: _Visible to registered members_


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## Dainerra

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I know, I was curious about her dog's pedigree, but when I clicked on Glacier's link, it didn't work.  It said this: _Visible to registered members_


if you scroll down to the middle(ish) of the page, you can view the first 3 generations of the pedigree. It's kind of buried in all of the other things and is visible to non-members. Just the more detailed info is hidden


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## Glaicer

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I know, I was curious about her dog's pedigree, but when I clicked on Glacier's link, it didn't work.  It said this: _Visible to registered members_


Can you see it now?

Litter from Quardes von der Staatsmacht and Inka Klidkova Dvora


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## Sabis mom

Is there some reason this dogs pedigree is such a well kept secret? 
Seems to me that if I had questions about a dogs potential that would be the first step. Especially with the knowledge pool available here.


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## Sunsilver

She's nervous about posting it. And given an experience I had when I posted pictures from a friend's litter of puppies, and posters found out Mom wasn't OFA'd yet, well, I can't say I blame her.

This happened on another website, not this one. But I was held personally responsible for the pups' mom not being OFA'd or titled...


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## Sabis mom

Sunsilver said:


> She's nervous about posting it. And given an experience I had when I posted pictures from a friend's litter of puppies, and posters found out Mom wasn't OFA'd yet, well, I can't say I blame her.
> 
> This happened on another website, not this one. But I was held personally responsible for the pups' mom not being OFA'd or titled...


Well if you have nothing to hide....

I don't agree with blaming others but people should not be breeding dogs without health testing. 
And buyers who buy from untested parents have zero room to complain.
Females with lesser or no titles sometimes just means a timing thing. Not an excuse just a reality.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Glaicer said:


> Can you see it now?
> 
> Litter from Quardes von der Staatsmacht and Inka Klidkova Dvora


Yes!


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## Winnal

Well, if no one wants to add to the list, then I'll just assume I have it all listed, or people just don't want to provide any more. That's fine. First take the route of least resistance then move towards more of real-time experience.


Dainerra said:


> This is the very first thing I was told 18 years ago when I started researching what it took to get a GOOD german shepherd that might be breeding potential.
> 
> "What is WRONG with your dog?" Yes, you need to know your dog's good traits but until you can objectively sit down with someone and explain every fault that your dog has, without being offended, you aren't remotely ready to breed. Let alone ready to compete.
> 
> People will talk about your dog. They will mention his good points but they will even more loudly point out his flaws. And many of them won't be nearly as nice as the people here have been. Often, going to a working club, they can be even more skeptical of "unusually colored dogs" mostly because they come into it with the idea that the dog was likely not from a responsible breeder. And, again, they can be mean about it.
> 
> That thick skin is the first, and most important, step in becoming a breeder. Second is the ability to separate your feelings and love from your dog from your breeding. Third is an objective outlook at the idea of breeding and where a particular dog falls in the spectrum.


Well the thing is that I never said I will not admit to her "faults", but I won't accept them when they are baseless and unreasoned, without evidence to prove it 100% as we have concluded, not having a DNA testing we don't know, and for the matter of breeding qualities, I haven't even begun to try and title her, I'm here to ask how to do it, so obviously without testing her I don't know her faults to begin with, I can only note the ones I personally noticed, which is pretty few, I don't consider myself a great trainer, so who am I to judge really? I'm here to find qualified judgement, not baseless skepticism presuming she is NOT breeding worthy simply because of her coat/mixed and me not being versed in breeding/titling; it doesn't mean she doesn't have the potential, I just need to go and get the testing and trials done, why comment on me not being knowledgeable breeding and attributed to her not being breeding worthy? There's just no relevance between the two factors. It just comes down to ME having to figure out how to see if she can get titled that comes down to proving what she is actually worth.



Castlemaid said:


> I just wanted to point out, that Schutzhund/IPO titles ARE Minimum requirements. Schutzhund was designed as a Breed Test, meaning that only the dogs that earned a minimum of SchH I would be considered breedworthy. This is still a requirement in the SV. That is why so many of the pedigrees of German Showlines and Working lines have nothing BUT SchH titled dogs in their pedigree - without titling, the dogs did not qualify for breeding, and their offspring would not be allowed to be registered.
> 
> So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.


*EUROPAMEISTER* isn't a minimum requirement.



cliffson1 said:


> If you NEED a list of things to determine if your dog is breedworthy, then YOU probably are not ready to be breeding. And I don't mean that flippantly. I mean that breeding is more art than science based on knowledge and experience.....once you acquire knowledge THROUGH experience you will begin to understand what you don't understand and can't be explained in words.
> Get out there and do some high level training and experience some quality breeding dogs....then you have a start of at least comparing your dog to something tangible.


So, logically, one cannot learn to get ready to be a breeder? Sorry, logic falls short here. Isn't what I'm asking exactly to do with just trying to compile a list (like a shopping list), then going out in the real world to EXPERIENCE and learn in real-time. If you read the whole OP, I specifically stated this:


> I would like to know immediate actions I can take and straight forward steps to take rather than discussing the nature of breeding like choosing complimentary mates and temperament, feel free to bring it up if need be, but I mainly want to locate the/a source(s) where I can go and gain all the necessary information by going to the access point so to speak.
> 
> I am good at learning as I observe in real-time, but of course first gather all the necessary concepts and groundwork of understanding, so if I can go to a club or event that would explain all this it would be the most effective way I think.


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## Sabis mom

The health testing can start now as I already said. I also said now is a good age to get her evaluated. I would start there and see what that gets you.


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## Winnal

Well she's not 2 years yet, almost. Yeah, planning on a vet visit soon.

I'm not posting my pedigree yet personally, because I'm just not comfortable with a lot of you using a lot of presumptions to make judgement, which is absolutely the worst thing you can do in debate or any sort of logical order of processing truth and reality. I have some background knowledge in law and just debating in general, and I see so many argument fallacies when attempting to disprove me and using so many strawman arguments and red herrings, it's just not ideal for me to post it so soon, until I get the DNA testing done and I am for sure myself that she is pure before I let you guys dive into critiquing her ancestry.

If you appeal to me personally, I'm certainly willing to send it to you privately, as I have done with Sunsilver, thanks again. <3


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## Sabis mom

Dm takes a swab test. Cost about 60 bucks. Can be done at any age. 
So can the multitude of other genetic tests.

I personally don't doubt your dog is probably purebred. First because I have seen the coloring before and second because I have worked with all manner of byb shepherds and seen all manner of types and coloring. Lol.
To be perfectly honest I know only what I have learned here about pedigrees. I am personally more interested in the breeder.


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## Winnal

Castlemaid said:


> So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.


I never got to reply to the second part of your post. I completely agree. 100%. That's my plan. Very well-put.


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## cliffson1

I think everyone here is trying to help you, really, but I am always skeptical about folks that tell you what they need to be told about something they inquiring about.
Your female is almost two; by the time you remotely have the knowledge of her traits/health, ( some of which take time in training to ascertain); and you get the experience to decide 1) whether she is breedworthy, 2) and making a good decision as to an adequate breeding partner,....you probably have missed her breeding window. 
Probably less than 20% of females today are good breeding quality in the breed today....that's one out of five, when you have checked all the boxes in this imaginary checklist. Really! This is the reason the breed has so many problems today, folks are either ill informed, or folks driven by personal likes are breeding dogs. 
I'm assuming you really want to do this right:smile2:, therefore the other option is having the breeder assist you in this endeavor providing the breeder is a breeder of extensive breeding experience in this breed. 
I just think you have the cart before the horse, there is a reason some of the most knowledgeable breeders on this forum agrees on most things about what you are inquiring about, .....not because they woke up today and just want to rain on your parade, but rather they have seen this movie too many times in past end up non productive. 
When it comes to breeding, your knowledge is more important than the individual dog, trust me, that's where you start in my opinion.


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## Winnal

cliffson1 said:


> I think everyone here is trying to help you, really, but I am always skeptical about folks that tell you what they need to be told about something they inquiring about.
> Your female is almost two; by the time you remotely have the knowledge of her traits/health, ( some of which take time in training to ascertain); and you get the experience to decide 1) whether she is breedworthy, 2) and making a good decision as to an adequate breeding partner,....you probably have missed her breeding window.
> Probably less than 20% of females today are good breeding quality in the breed today....that's one out of five, when you have checked all the boxes in this imaginary checklist. Really! This is the reason the breed has so many problems today, folks are either ill informed, or folks driven by personal likes are breeding dogs.
> I'm assuming you really want to do this right:smile2:, therefore the other option is having the breeder assist you in this endeavor providing the breeder is a breeder of extensive breeding experience in this breed.
> I just think you have the cart before the horse, there is a reason some of the most knowledgeable breeders on this forum agrees on most things about what you are inquiring about, .....not because they woke up today and just want to rain on your parade, but rather they have seen this movie too many times in past end up non productive.
> When it comes to breeding, your knowledge is more important than the individual dog, trust me, that's where you start in my opinion.


I'm glad you're putting so much effort into "trying" to help me, by telling me straight up that I shouldn't even try.

I'm not looking for any subjective advice to sway me in "realizing" I shouldn't even try to see if she is breeding worthy, because, "it'll probably be too late".

I know all you're saying is presuming that I do not realize the amount of work required to breed. Just leave it to the pros. Well, without people like me (that want to learn and start somewhere), there wouldn't be pros to begin with.

That's like saying, "don't even try, because you're probably not going to make it."

I want objective facts and actions to take.

I'm glad you think my "imaginary" list (idk what that means, it's physically written, so not really imaginary) is complete. That means apparently I already learned all the things I need to go and do/learn, and it only took me 2 days to figure it all out (based on your statement that there is nothing more that can be added to the list), thanks to some very helpful people on here (Sunsilver).

By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once.

Thanks anyway!


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## Winnal

I really like this notion of, "if you have to ask before you try, don't try." It's cute.


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## Aly

I'm not a breeder (though I know many in real life), so here's my recommendation. Find an experienced, reputable breeder who's done something with their dogs (e.g., IPO, obedience, conformation showing) for _years_. Not someone who's simply bred dogs, but someone who's 'proofed' their breeding ---_ over generations_ --- in recognized competitions. Someone who also health tests their lines and can show you the results of that testing, _over generations_. Once you've found her/him, see if you can arrange a mentoring relationship. If said person is willing, s/he can teach you more far about pedigrees, breeding, raising and handling dogs, etc., than you can _ever _learn from the internet, books, and the like. 

Warning: Finding the right mentor will take time, as will establishing and developing a mentoring relationship. But, if it's important to you, what you'll learn will be priceless.

Aly


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## ksotto333

I just get from reading these posts from valued members (with so much experience) that they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete. Pointing out that this dog will probably not be trialed and health tested in her breeding window is just giving you the practical aspects. What you learn with her, will guide your next choice of puppy if breeding is your desire. Always remember those puppies are your responsibility for life, should their future homes become unfeasible.


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## Winnal

ksotto333 said:


> I just get from reading these posts from valued members (with so much experience) that they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete. Pointing out that this dog will probably not be trialed and health tested in her breeding window is just giving you the practical aspects. What you learn with her, will guide your next choice of puppy if breeding is your desire. Always remember those puppies are your responsibility for life, should their future homes become unfeasible.


That logic doesn't hold up at all. How can you say I'm trying to breed already when I'm trying to learn how first and start doing the things I need to determine if I should first? I think it's just personal vendetta. It's always the same people saying no to me over and over, including you (some have backed off because at least now they understand I'm not breeding for the wrong reason).

It's more like, they don't want my list complete, because they don't want me to ever get to the actual breeding part. No worries, I'll do it myself.

Based on your statement, "they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete". First of all, you say, "try breeding", which is false, because I'm not going to try until I determine if I should and do the things necessary to decide, secondly, if they don't want me to "try breeding" until my list is complete, then why not try and complete the list so I can try breeding. That doesn't add up at all.

Once again, the notion of, "you don't even know how to do it yet, so don't even try, or don't ask us."

Or, "you don't even know how to do it yet, so we're not going to tell you how until you figure it out yourself." (lol)

And you claim, the dog probably won't be ready in time, then give specifics like, the estimated amount of time it takes to do all these things, and I'm guessing you have no numbers, because it's completely based on the person and how fast they learn, their resources, training, management, ability, knowledge and experience (presuming I have none of these at all). So, I am going to pass on your 'probability' without any statistics backing it up.

Have a nice day.


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## Winnal

How about just tell me what I need to know (or don't) and leave it to time to decide whether I can do it all in time, instead of presuming that I won't have the time and subjectively state that I shouldn't try because of this. All that does is add discouragement without any benefit or actual substance to my cause, just demeans it, pretty much shows your intent in posting. 

*So, I realized I'll just be here arguing forever and gain nothing (because none of you want to give me anything) with you naysayers telling me I shouldn't try at all, I get you want me gone. Like you guys said, I have no time to waste. I'm out. PDB here I come.
*


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## Sunsilver

"By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once."

Winnal, what people are trying to tell you is that the learning process takes TIME and EXPERIENCE. You can't just learn everything you need to know from a book, or the internet in a couple of weeks! That's like putting on a pair of skates for the first time, and expecting you're ready to compete in the NHL the very next week. Okay, bad analogy, maybe, but I hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say.

BTW, need to apologize for calling Winnal a 'she'. Not sure how I arrived at that assumption, but it's wrong...:blush:


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## ksotto333

The list should be far enough now for you to get started and see where you stand. You have many many threads and previous statements that probably makes people take your posts with a grain or two of salt. Remember this is the internet, and "if it's on the internet, it's got to be true"


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## Winnal

Sunsilver said:


> "By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once."
> 
> Winnal, what people are trying to tell you is that the learning process takes TIME and EXPERIENCE. You can't just learn everything you need to know from a book, or the internet in a couple of weeks! That's like putting on a pair of skates for the first time, and expecting you're ready to compete in the NHL the very next week. Okay, bad analogy, maybe, but I hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say.
> 
> BTW, need to apologize for calling Winnal a 'she'. Not sure how I arrived at that assumption, but it's wrong...:blush:


And I get that, but you can actually gain experience faster from people that are experienced, that's why there are mentors, and many people told me to find one, that's exactly what I'm going to do (people like you ).

Have a nice day (will read your Pm soon).


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## lhczth

Is this your dog's pedigree?

Litter from Quardes von der Staatsmacht and Inka Klidkova Dvora

If so, why don't you go to your breeder for help? They know the reasons why they did the breeding that produced your girl and should be able to help you on your road to learning and future breeding.


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## MineAreWorkingline

lhczth said:


> Is this your dog's pedigree?
> 
> Litter from Quardes von der Staatsmacht and Inka Klidkova Dvora
> 
> If so, why don't you go to your breeder for help? They know the reasons why they did the breeding that produced your girl and should be able to help you on your road to learning and future breeding.


I think that pedigree was posted by another member for their own dog. The OP is refusing to post their dog's pedigree fearing ridicule.


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## Sunsilver

The breeder of Winnal's dog is NOT the sort you'd want as a mentor. There are some very good working line dogs in the pedigree, though, starting with the grandfather of his dog.

Thanks, Winnal! That one's going to take you awhile to read...  Coat colour genetics are complicated, and I don't pretend to completely understand them myself. I've given you some good resources for them, though.


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## Dracovich

You want to feel like your dog is from 'champion lines' and quality for breeding, would you be able to accept if she weren't? Plenty of us here do not have breeding worthy dogs, there's many here who don't even have purebred dogs but GSD mixes, it doesn't define how we feel about our dogs.

People here just want you to be smart about this. You have to realize that with your current knowledge and the inexperienced questions you've been asking, you're still years from being ready to be a reputable breeder, you likely won't even be ready until after your bitches breeding years.


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## Jax08

I think that's Glacier's dog's pedigree


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## dogfaeries

I was thinking about titling a dog, and how I had no idea, when I got Carly, how long it could take. I know the OP isn't going to do AKC conformation, but it took us a solid year from winning that first point to getting a championship on Carly, who is a nice bitch. I couldn't afford to show every weekend, and even if I could've, it's just not that easy. I spent roughly $5000 showing her. She was 2 months shy of her 3rd birthday when I finished her. I have a mentor and my mentor's mentor, and I still know next to nothing, lol. 

Winnal, it's a process. A long process. Enjoy your girl, and learn with her. What's her name btw?


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## Winnal

I mean like whatever you guys are saying is not even based on a concrete time in the first place. Unless you're saying it's gunna take me 5+ years to "learn and do" all the things I need to, then explain to me where you came up with such a number. Exactly, out of the blue. And if I do miss it, then so what? Let time decide that, not you assume it.



> I have a SchH3 female who started greying at 1 1/2 yrs. old. The greying is a separate gene, as is masking. I also had a bi-colored czech import bitch, Bena od Volfu, who had no greying at 13 yrs.
> 
> The age limit on breeding a bitch has many factors involved. Condition, quality ( structural, pedigree, work ethic, titles), and mental age. Some dogs are aged at 6, some not until 12. Breeding an older bitch also depends on previous breeding. If the bitch is aged and maiden, I would not breed her. Many bitches have difficulty supporting a male, if not in top condition. My SchH3 bitch is almost 10 (Nov.13, 1999). She is presently bred, however, she is a bitch who has an outstanding pedigree, work ethic, hardness, trainability and has produced very well. She had no problem supporting a very large male. IMHO, for any bitch to be bred, they should have the abiltiy to better the breed. With every breeding, there is a calculated risk of the bitch not producing milk, puppies or the entire litter dying, the bitch killing the pups, the bitch dying, c-section, etc. Lots to think about, even breeding a bitch with everything picture perfect. Then there are the puppies to sell into the correct homes..................it never ends! It takes love, commitment, and dedication.
> 
> Debbie Wade


Just proves you're all trolling. I'm out for real this time.


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## cliffson1

Okay then, I wasn't trying to tell you whether to breed your dog or not, but if that is what you got from my post, I'm sorry. Look, you seem to have things figured out, so I wish you good luck! :wink2:


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## Dracovich

You wanted to know what it takes in our opinion to be a reputable breeder, you didn't like our opinions even with legitimate sources. You're forcing ignorance.

People can produce high quality dogs and still be unethical breeders, breeding a female dog over 8 seems very inhumane to me.

TBH your current level of maturity tells me it will be many years before you can take in new information like an adult, process it and apply it. Once you're matured it will also take a few more years of education and experience before being ready to actually purchase, raise and breed your own dogs. I'd be surprised if you will be ready to be a reputable breeder within a decade even. You might breed your dog soon, that wouldn't make you a REPUTABLE breeder.


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## lhczth

*IF* your dog has what it takes to title in one of the protection sports you are probably looking at 2.5-3 years at least to get her, for example, IPO1. If you paid attention to the one thread in the Schutzhund forum, most of us spend a lot of time training. Club time and personal time at least 5 days a week. Club days are literally that, DAYS, not a couple of hours. Tracking, unless you are lucky and have the land, can take a good 1-1.5 hours, depending on how close you are to tracking fields, 3-6 days a week. Obedience 10-15 minutes a day, sometimes twice a day, if you have experience. If not, you can expect to have to take classes (driving time, class time so probably 1-2 hours) at least once a week and then help at club (though most clubs do NOT teach on club day). Protection can be done once a week, but it will take far longer to achieve your goals. 2 days a week is minimum if you really want to make progress so, unless you have a flexible job, you will be gone all weekend or you will have one late night during the week (many clubs train on one weekend day and one week night). 

Another option is sending your girl out to someone to title for you. I mostly don't recommend this because you have no idea how your dog will be treated. It is also very expensive and you will learn nothing yourself about your dog. This could shorten the time frame a bit since you would be removing your own inexperience from the picture (I am assuming you have never trained and titled a dog). 

If you really want to become a breeder, you could find a good mentor that is familiar with buying already titled adult females, have her bred, whelp the litter and start fresh with one of her puppies. You could even work the female herself after her litter to gain more experience. This isn't a cheap way to go, but could move things along for you. 

Hopefully this was more helpful.


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## Dainerra

Winnal said:


> I mean like whatever you guys are saying is not even based on a concrete time in the first place. Unless you're saying it's gunna take me 5+ years to "learn and do" all the things I need to, then explain to me where you came up with such a number. Exactly, out of the blue. And if I do miss it, then so what? Let time decide that, not you assume it.
> 
> Just proves you're all trolling. I'm out for real this time.


Time from the time I started learning and researching until I bred my first litter, 13 years. And I still don't know even close to all that I need to know about everything. It's best to breed females before they get too old. You're looking at probably 3-4 years minimum to get even basic titles on her, depending on how many trials you enter and how often you go to training. Maybe even longer.


And, in the end, with this female, given her color, you won't find any responsible owners of titled proven males who would allow you to breed to their dogs. They are not going to be willing to have their name associated with anything so far out of standard.


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## Jax08

6 weeks. You can learn everything in 6 weeks. Good to go. No worries.


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## dojoson41

*Questions*



Winnal said:


> That logic doesn't hold up at all. How can you say I'm trying to breed already when I'm trying to learn how first and start doing the things I need to determine if I should first? I think it's just personal vendetta. It's always the same people saying no to me over and over, including you (some have backed off because at least now they understand I'm not breeding for the wrong reason).
> 
> It's more like, they don't want my list complete, because they don't want me to ever get to the actual breeding part. No worries, I'll do it myself.
> 
> Based on your statement, "they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete". First of all, you say, "try breeding", which is false, because I'm not going to try until I determine if I should and do the things necessary to decide, secondly, if they don't want me to "try breeding" until my list is complete, then why not try and complete the list so I can try breeding. That doesn't add up at all.
> 
> Once again, the notion of, "you don't even know how to do it yet, so don't even try, or don't ask us."
> 
> Or, "you don't even know how to do it yet, so we're not going to tell you how until you figure it out yourself." (lol)
> 
> And you claim, the dog probably won't be ready in time, then give specifics like, the estimated amount of time it takes to do all these things, and I'm guessing you have no numbers, because it's completely based on the person and how fast they learn, their resources, training, management, ability, knowledge and experience (presuming I have none of these at all). So, I am going to pass on your 'probability' without any statistics backing it up.
> 
> Have a nice day.


Knowledge is power, the only dumb questionis those not asked and only ill responsible breeders don’t ask questions. Don’tstop asking because for every one person who won’t answer there are 3 thatwill-you can even ask breeders in other countries like Germany and Britain=theylove people with interests and questions.


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## Beau's Mom

Experienced breeders and handlers have answered your questions, some with great detail. I don’t understand why you think people are telling you not to even try.


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