# Genetic Trackers?



## ohdev (Mar 26, 2012)

If you were looking for a puppy with lots of potential for detection work, as well as protection, what dogs that are producing right now would you go to?

I've read the old threads on bloodlines that bring nice tracking and hunt drives, but I'm interested in hearing what dogs really stand out right now with these qualities, and what they're producing.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Are you asking about specific breeders or bloodlines?


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## ohdev (Mar 26, 2012)

I suppose I'm looking for both really, with an emphasis on currently producing studs or dams. I'm grateful for any advice, line or breeder recommendations any can give me. I'm usually a lurker/reader and not a poster, so sorry if I'm not clear enough.

This thread was very helpful to me in learning some lines that carry strong tracking ability: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/177787-bloodlines-dogs-known-tracking.html

So now I'm interested in what dogs are producing good strong noses at the moment, true to whatever lines they may be bred on. If there are any that stand out that is.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes . There are dogs being bred for this right now . Strong instinctive tracking . Here is a pedigree of Carmspack Nicholas certified detection dog - working every single day -- ready for SAR evaluation , Carmspack Stan is sire (brother is a dual police dog)

Nick's dam Chiba vom Parchimer Land

recently bred to Carmspack Claudia sister to bomb dog Silva, and two sisters who are narc and SAR Carmspack Claudia

I do not own these animals , they are in professional working hands , it is their litter bred for their need for strong tracking dogs -- I do the breeding plans , consultant , evaluation of pups. Also consultant for a law agency wanting a secure source of dogs with high hunt / search / tracking, so they have a little breeding program.

In another thread panties got in a twist because I put out pedigrees and provide information about my dogs. (where are the oldtimers) Why not , when as in those cases , whether it was "Buffy" or genetic obedience, or tracking , pedigrees and a record of the dogs were an important part of the answers/discussions .
I don't have anything to sell. I am providing pedigree information , which is what genetics is, so that the OP can dissect the pedigrees and find similar genetics -- or other people with a desire to learn can do so.
this link back to a previous thread has lots of good information.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/177787-bloodlines-dogs-known-tracking.html
Tracking by and large is neglected . This is not schutzhund tracking . These pups can be tracking fiends as early as they can run Kade as an example owned by the same person as Nicholas . Kade at 10 weeks of age was doing searches where he would not break off - totally bloody minded determined , elvations, unstable footing , object to be found had no meaning to him (so not a toy - just what happened to be available in the environment) , no food reward, tons of praise and connection feedback , no hesitation , would leap onto a 3 foot rubble pile with skids and yard waste like a lizard onto a wall . Fire-in the belly . 
Saphire with her dog in tracking training can vouch for this.

The genetics are out there .


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I've heard that Ernst vom Weinbergblick produced good genetic natural trackers.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ernst can track -- I like Hank better ,

revisit this thread on Dusty z udoli upy http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/202322-comments-dusty-z-udoli-upy.html

consensus for the genetics !! 

that was a breeding in consideration --- may be changed up to
a sister to Saphire's GUS -- so includes Chiba Parchimer Land , and Journey's brother Sumo Carmspack Sumo

we'll see soon - but I really like this Dusty for many reasons -- did have talk with owner -- the dog is strong tracking for sure , plus has a good base of old herding genetics .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My little guy seems to have a very nice hunt drive. What dogs in his pedigree contribute to that?

Seger vom Sitz von der Hose


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I've heard Escobar van Adelrik supposedly produced nice hunt drive..http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=424112-escobar-van-adelrik


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

Jax08 said:


> My little guy seems to have a very nice hunt drive. What dogs in his pedigree contribute to that?


All of 'em 

Seriously, my young dog (Q litter Sitz von der Hose - so your dog's older brother) has a lot more hunt drive and persistence for "that object" than my dog that had almost the same pedigree as Nike (mine was Jai x Chukkie). I don't know if it is all from Eros (Iron) though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Uniballer said:


> All of 'em
> 
> Seriously, my young dog (Q litter Sitz von der Hose - so your dog's older brother) has a lot more hunt drive and persistence for "that object" than my dog that had almost the same pedigree as Nike (mine was Jai x Chukkie). I don't know if it is all from Eros (Iron) though.


Those Nike/Eros pups sure are something :wub: I am loving his hunt drive. So much fun to watch.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Look for dogs going back on Lord vom Gleisdreieck, the Körbelbachs, Mink, some of the old DDR lines and also some of the Czech lines (I don't know them as well). These dog bring strong hunt drive. 

I got a lot of very natural tracking dogs and excellent hunt drive from V Hannes vom Spadener Holz
Hannes, unfortunately is deceased, but there are a few kids by him in the states. 

Then I took a daughter of Hannes to V Athos von den Wannaer Höhen
these guys are even better than their mother. Athos is a young dog so litters by him are something to consider. 

Another dog who seems to be producing some very good tracking ability is Figo vom Fuchsgraben
IMO the super tracking ability is coming through his mother. Another option bred to the right female. 

I have heard that SG Mac von der Kine is producing very good tracking/scenting ability which doesn't surprise me looking at how he is bred. 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1342643-athos-von-den-wannaer-hohen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nice selection -- Javir , through his mother Quaste (strong pedigree for tracking) -- Fero included he is not to be forgotten for this trait . Aly ! I like that pedigree of Figo. Mac too -- good choices.

I am trying to find a pedigree of a dog who just certified SAR --- impressive tracking up to 10 miles on one -- his sire is one of the Sue Eviston working police breedings -- I don't recall if he is a Hannes son / grandson - will let you know . I have plans for this male myself.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Quasi (1/2 brother to Mac) producing well in tracking.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

** comment removed by Admin. Has nothing to do with the topic**


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is second-hand info but several people (who know the dog and have seen him track) have told me that Figo is an excellent tracker. My friend now has a Figo son who is basically doing SchH3 and FH difficulty tracks at less than a year old. I started raising a Figo son and didn't get to track him but in general his temperament was super confident, dominant, not hectic or leaking in drive so I imagine he will develop good tracking abilities being very methodical and level-headed even as an 8 week old puppy.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that Eviston "Grunheide" super tracking SAR cert dog, is Osvold Grunheide . His sire is V- Grizwold Von Grunheide working police dog , repeat litter brother Snyper showing reliable results , genetic base for traits http://www.vongrunheideshepherds.com/psdsnyper.html which if you are looking for "genetic" trackers you want to see and be able traits through out the pedigree. Sire of Griswold Axinus on den Bösen Eichen 
Axinus von den bösen Eichen Dam of Griswold Iska Pedigree
reminder Griswold is the sire of Osvald . Griswold and his sire Axinus both high level police service dogs. I like the social butterfly aspect when off duty. Smacks of good temperament !

Dam of Osvold is Blue vom Quellteich Blue vom Quellteich O Litter

If you are interested in finding this dog I can give you the contact information. I am thinking of using him somewhere , sometime along the way.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would expect a good tracking dog coming out of this pedigree - Jill von der Donnerbrücke

and this ! V Frauke von Gut Korten

that is beautiful conformation !! as well sister Fly too - this is good working structure .
strong , make - sense pedigrees , looks like Quasimodo is producing some fine dogs .


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Uniballer said:


> All of 'em
> 
> Seriously, my young dog (Q litter Sitz von der Hose - so your dog's older brother) has a lot more hunt drive and persistence for "that object" than my dog that had almost the same pedigree as Nike (mine was Jai x Chukkie). I don't know if it is all from Eros (Iron) though.


Which litter from Jai, I bred my bitch the first time to Trish's Gino (Jai x Chukkie). Just curious.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

"I would expect a good tracking dog coming out of this pedigree - Jill von der Donnerbrücke"

I looked at this and the male i bred Yoko to last time has SG *Wendi von der Wannaer Höhen SchH3(SG-BSP) "a" SG *Boy vom Pendel bach SchH3(SG-BSP) IP3 "a" V *Delka vonder Wannaer Höhen SchH3(SG-BSP) "in the pedigree also. Good to hear.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I saw a young male at training from Sue and Gabor's L litter and wow, he is amazing, very focused and dedicated natural tracking from early on ~genetic.
I believe there was a repeat breeding on this litter recently, I would have loved a pup from this combo!
Lery von Tajgetosz


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Jane,

Lery is a Quasi son . He is working as K9 detection and cross training in drugs and expolsives.

The repeat Z litter same drive and nose....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Smithie86 said:


> Jane,
> 
> Lery is a Quasi son . He is working as K9 detection and cross training in drugs and expolsives.
> 
> The repeat Z litter same drive and nose....


With Sid and Falk in the pedigree, great puppies, I'm sure.


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## ohdev (Mar 26, 2012)

Thank you everyone who replied! I wasn't able to get to my computer for a day or so, but I was reading every reply on my phone c:

@Carmen I was really really hoping you would chime in, if you didn't I would have messaged you! I respect your knowledge and experience with these types of dogs, which I think is the type of dog I am looking for. My interests lie in detection work, narcotics, man trailing, etc, which is why I want to learn as much as I can about these lines. Next year I will be going to school to get my feet wet in these subjects, and then I will go forward from there hopefully.



lhczth said:


> Another dog who seems to be producing some very good tracking ability is Figo vom Fuchsgraben
> IMO the super tracking ability is coming through his mother. Another option bred to the right female.


I am very interested in Figo from what I have seen and heard of him through many people. In your opinion, who (or what type of dog) would be the right female to be bred to Figo to produce the kind of puppy I might be looking for? Besides being a natural tracker, I'm also looking for a dog that will make the jump in to competitive sports with me (either IPO or PSA).



carmspack said:


> If you are interested in finding this dog I can give you the contact information. I am thinking of using him somewhere , sometime along the way.


I would love that. I won't be looking for a puppy until about a year from now, but it never hurts to do your research and talk to as many people as possible.



carmspack said:


> I would expect a good tracking dog coming out of this pedigree - Jill von der Donnerbrücke
> 
> and this ! V Frauke von Gut Korten
> 
> ...


Wow, Jill and Frauke are both gorgeous :wub: I'm looking for a female actually, so seeing these girls is just what I've been waiting for conformation wise.



onyx'girl said:


> I saw a young male at training from Sue and Gabor's L litter and wow, he is amazing, very focused and dedicated natural tracking from early on ~genetic.
> I believe there was a repeat breeding on this litter recently, I would have loved a pup from this combo!
> Lery von Tajgetosz


What a handsome guy that Lery is. I'm seeing a lot of Vox von der Kline in these suggestions, so I'm going to guess he brings a lot of nice tracking and hunt drive (I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong). I really like Adi's pedigree too, I've done a lot of reading on Sid and his offspring and like what I've seen.



Smithie86 said:


> Jane,
> 
> Lery is a Quasi son . He is working as K9 detection and cross training in drugs and expolsives.
> 
> The repeat Z litter same drive and nose....


This is exactly what I'm looking for, that kind of versatility in the work. Could you tell me more about how Lery is in his work? Or perhaps just point me in the direction of someone to speak to? And just one more question, would an email or pm be better to inquire about any breedings you and Gabor may have planned?

I just want to thank everyone so much again for all your replies, I enjoy reading every single one of them, and am learning from them all c: Making the jump from lurking to posting again was so well worth it thanks to you guys, I appreciate it and everything said on this thread from here on as well!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks to those that contributed so much to the thread. This one is getting bookmarked.

David Winners


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jill (the dog) has the pedigree solid TOP and bottom , particularly the sire line Jill von der Donnerbrücke
As soon as I posted her picture , also in the good conformation folder, I had comments sent to me how much she looks like my Case . Could be sisters.
I just love some of the dogs coming out of Rosseleck -- Ahnentafel - Verdori vom Rosseleck 

Willkommen auf der Startseite
Her Verdori von Rosseleck Nov 23 2013 FH 2 with 100 points -- now that's what I am looking for . look at the pedigree - lineup of usual suspects ---- her line developed for strong tracking . Follow the dam , bottom line way back ! that is built in genetics for tracking Verdori vom Rosseleck


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lord - my female who was 2-5,5 on him was a terrific tracker, she passed it on...I hate to train tracking and the dogs tracked naturally. One son was a border patrol dog for the State of Vermont and did SAR and narcotics detection...super dog.

Komet, a grandson of Kyra - the female linebred on Lord, is absolutely over the top in hunt drive and ability. I was tossing a toy into a pond for him last fall....he got it stuck on the bottom somehow....he spent over 40 minutes searching for it....on shore, in the water. I figured there was a new 10 buck toy gone but he finally got it. 

Lee


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## Saxtonhill (Jan 9, 2007)

dawnandjr said:


> Which litter from Jai, I bred my bitch the first time to Trish's Gino (Jai x Chukkie). Just curious.


Yes, the Anita Auto Dam and Nike v Sitz von der Hose kids all can track and are versatile. I've seen quite a few, have laid track for some and saw one absolutely ace a TDX---was very intense and serious dog (was a Dante Traho ex Anita son). The Anita family is a good producing family. Gino is a very good dog (Jai ex Chukkie). The Gino ex Yoko kids were nice and some were serious. Also like to see Lord vom Gleisdreieck in there as well. 

To the OP...if you are considering the Eros sired litter, you might try contacting his owner, Debbie Zappia with questions? 


Lee, please can you tell me who was the Vermont border Patrol SAR dog? I would like to look up the pedigree for my records. PM me if you wish. Thanks!


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## Saxtonhill (Jan 9, 2007)

Oh well...guess I killed another thread


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Go ahead and email me. We post breedings on site and on facebook, when confirmed.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Saxtonhill said:


> Oh well...guess I killed another thread


Hi Cathy, good to see you on the board.


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## neal52 (Jan 3, 2014)

A friend has a dog that has some of these lines in the pedigree and its obivous the pup is a natural at tracking, seems to use her nose everywhere.
The only problem is that the pup is so driven by scent that she is uninterested in anything else, its hard to even get her nose up off the ground.
The owner is getting frustrated as he has no interest in doing any tracking.

Is this normal? 
Are these "tracking dogs" so specialized that they are only good for that one thing and not for anything else? 

I could see how this is wonderful for someone who is solely doing SAR etc but for someone looking for a family companion not so ... my friend say he wishes his dog had less of this scent drive so they could have fun in other ways.

Isn't the GSD supposed to be the "do everything" dog?

p.s. whats the difference between "hunt" & "prey" drive? Dog sees a squirrel and takes off after it ... is that prey or hunt, or both?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sniffing around isn't necessarily drive to track. Sometimes that behavior is avoidance, or just a habit we call "crittering" (the dog is having more fun sniffing out other critters). One thing SchH tracking does is pair the drive with obedience and often some amount of pressure/conflict and THEN see if the dog can still execute some longer, difficult tracks. That would demonstrate the drive. Sniffing around can also be a lack of drive in other areas, avoidance behavior, etc. Tracking is my dog's best phase in both SchH and SDA (and his best trial scores in both) but he does not check out on me or use sniffing to blow me off in other areas, he also trains and titles in flyball, agility, the obedience and protection phases, dock diving....In fact I'm often surprised how well he does track and how much he enjoys it with little effort on my part (I don't particularly enjoy tracking and it's probably my least experienced area of dog sport/training). The other dog I mentioned earlier that had a good pedigree for tracking and showed even more natural ability also did rally obedience and agility competitively with no problems sniffing or getting distracted.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Working people use the term 'hunt' drive to mean a dog that will work and work and work to find a target odor. Could be a hidden toy, drugs (to earn the reward), food, bad guy, lost child, etc. Prey drive is the desire to chase down and catch a moving object whether a squirrel, a ball, the rag, etc. Hunting, as in when a dog/wolf is looking for food, involves both. When a dog starts searching for mice during a track or while doing SAR work we call it crittering, but it is really hunting. 

The female I had years ago, Treue, had stupid amounts of ball drive. She was the type that probably would have jumped off of a cliff after a ball. She had very little prey drive or the desire to actually chase real prey. I think her desire to chase a ball and any object I threw (including dandelions) was more what we might call play drive or the desire to play. She was also a very people oriented dog and extremely social. Her pack drive was very high. 

Have I confused you now? :rofl:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Along those lines of Treue, I have a dog who is the opposite. He doesn't give a crap about chasing balls or toys, will not work for toy lures or the reward of playing with a toy, but if he *thinks* he sees a rabbit on the other side of the fence he will run and check that same spot for weeks every time he goes out in the yard. His desire to pursue actual prey is uninterpretable. For many years he had to be on a tie-out inside our fenced yard. Same dog also has little pack drive other than the fact that he can be a bit soft/overwhelmed by some things and seeks out me or my husband for security. Other than that, he's very independent. I have a tiny house and have no idea where he is right now. My GSDs are like up my butt and rolling around on my feet...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lhczth said:


> I got a lot of very natural tracking dogs and excellent hunt drive from V Hannes vom Spadener Holz
> Hannes, unfortunately is deceased, but there are a few kids by him in the states.


:thumbup: Halo is a Hannes grand-daughter. Her sire H'Doc vom Rex Lupus is an outstanding tracker, scoring a perfect 100 in the tracking phase at the 2010 USA-GSD National Championship, and he had the highest tracking score of 99 at the 2011 USA-GSD National Championship.

H'Doc vom Rex Lupus


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hannes and many others identified with genetic tracking have Ilja aus dem schwarzen Zwinger (Hannes 2 times ) . I attribute this to Seigo Angerholz dams line!! (haus Himpel linebred).
Hannes is an excellent source to B litter Lierberg.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very good thread, good info from Carmen, Lisa, Sue, Lee and others, refreshing!


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