# ways to tell lines in pedigree?



## reptilejason (May 21, 2015)

Hey everyone. I know the question has been asked regarding the difference between show lines and work lines, and german work lines and American work lines, etc. My question is, Is there anyway of finding this information based on looking at the pedigree, or do we rely on the breeder on faith for this information? Please pardon my ignorance on this topic


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

look up the dog on 2 databases.....

workingdog.eu - this site is going to be pretty much all European dogs....then look at the photos - if the dog is a black and red/tan saddle back 99.9% probability it is Euro show line....look at the pedigree photos, if they are ALL the saddle backs, it IS a showline (there are a few sable showlines as well, but the pedigree photos will be stacked and mixed with black and tan/reds).......if there are blacks, sables, bi colors in the pedigree - it is going to be a working line pedigree....study the kennel names, you will start to see the same ones over and over - especially in generations further back 

pedigreedatabase. com - the other site - this one has ASL and white GSDs as well....study the first one initially - get a feel for the "type" via the photos and pay attention to the style of the photos....Euro showline dogs rarely have a handler in the photos, people showing AKC usually get a win photo with the handler, owner and often the judge....the "type" again....the ASL is a longer, narrower and more angulatedog generally and is stacked with its longer looking neck extended upwards -ASL dogs can be other colors as well - the blanket back and pure black will show in the AKC ring and be photographed...

After a while, the kennel names will become familiar - you will know Mohnweise, haus Sevens, Busecker Schloss, bosen Nachtbarshaft are all Euro working lines and Argiento, Fiemerick and Murrtal are all Euro show lines...

Then look carefully at the registered names!!!! Euro dogs have two componentes....Call name dictated by litter sequencing of the breeder and kennel name.....ie...my 3rd litter was my C litter - thus I had Csabre v Wolfstraum, along with Cito, Cairo, Cougar and Cheetah....my most recent were L and M - so I had Lynx v Wolfstraum and L'Sabre v Wolfstraum and then in the M litter - Mikhail, Maverick, Matrix, Minx, Morgana, Mayhem, Morgana etc.....This is the way European and Euro lined breeders name their dogs. The ASL people may or may not use a kennel name, they do "theme" litters....like spices.....and would have (assuming the kennel name is Rainbow which I made up!) Rainbows Basil, Rainbows Paprika, Rainbows Thyme and Rainbows Rosemary.....

Then you get into backyard bred dogs - the names are usually a good indicater...Brown's Beautiful Bella....Candy's Rocky....Midnight Song....Luna Moon....Sassys little girl....etc etc etc....these dogs will eventually go back to any of the main types of lines and often you will see a mix of known kennel names mixed in a few generations back...those are often picked up on and used to promote the sale and cost of the BY/casually bred litter - they will advertise "German lines" when a Wienerau or Korbelbach dog shows up 4 or 6 generations back.

There are those people in the US who get handed a puppy by a casual or BY breeder and who put some prominent kennel name on their pup in a misguided sense of ??? pride, duty??? They use the well known kennel name in ignorance of the protocol and naming convention - I have seen Porancini <sp> Straze, Tiekerhook and Antverpa on dogs bred here in the US out of dogs who had those names in their pedigree - sometimes the parents even....so that is a joker so to speak.


It will take a lot of time and attention, but with these ROUGH guidelines....you can get a good sense of it...!


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

One thing I did when I was looking at my pup's pedigree was to google the names of the dogs that the parents and grandparents might be line bred on. Often, these dogs are of interest and sometimes they will have webpages written about them. You need to take everything you read online with a grain of salt and consider the source, though. The databases and websites are mainly user-generated so they will have errors. Someone had entered in my pup's sire's names and titles wrong on PDB. But it is a really good starting point and way better than nothing. 

I talked to someone who claimed to have a puppy out of Zidane v Haus Sevens. Their story sounded odd so I looked up the pedigree. Turns out the breeder had a BYB dog with Zidane waaay back so they named him after Zidane, presumably to make themselves look better? Not really sure the reasoning behind it.

Breeder websites are another place to look, if you want to figure out the kind of dog a kennel produces. Of course not everybody has a website but occasionally you can find one with a good bit of info on it.


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## reptilejason (May 21, 2015)

Wolfstraum and Kaimeju. Thanks for the great replies! They were very helpful!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

another clue would be if you see V or VA as part of the achievements or titles this would be German show lines .
These would be placements at the major annual conformation show VA being either Sieger or Siegerin . 
Working lines just do not participate -- totally different conformation -- different criterion for breeding . Working lines are not black and red .

If you see BSP that would be German working lines as this is the main annual working trials competition . Show lines just do not (99.9%) participate .
Often working lines may have FH , FH2 - German tracking titles . Show lines don't participate (99.9% not)

If you see Ch , Select Champion that would be AKC/CKC show lines .


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Legitimate question: I have seen a pedigree with MANY Sch titles (1-3) accompanied by V or VA, does the ScH titles not necessarily mean working line? I'm a little confused.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> Legitimate question: I have seen a pedigree with MANY Sch titles (1-3) accompanied by V or VA, does the ScH titles not necessarily mean working line? I'm a little confused.


Nope. In Germany schh is a prerequisite to breeding. And these titles can be "bought" by showline owners.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Even if they are ScH 3? Interesting.. I knew that ScH1 was required for breeding but didn't know they could "buy" them. If they weren't bought, what does it say about the line that has mostly ScH2 and 3 Titles along with V and VA?

I should include that this is a Pure German line I was looking at.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There is no way to officically "buy" titles, there are so many showline dogs with titles that realistically did not do the training to earn them ~ it means that the dog did not actually earn the scores awarded.....there are tales of scorebooks presented to the judge with cash in them, titles awarded at "midnight trials" ~ judge and competitors in a tavern and dogs never on a field.....etc....

Dogs purchased with titles who have no clue what a dumbbell is or how to run blinds seem to back up the stories...

Talking to an SV judge a couple of years ago who was also an SV official who was in charge of investigating shady judges and trials - it did happen and was pretty common knowledge. Judges were having their licenses pulled - even down to those who let an AD be awarded on a 6 mile ride instead of a 12. This judge would get on a bike and ride the whole AD with the dogs.

Lee


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

hm.. that's really interesting. Sad too.. is there any way to tell if the titles are fake?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

carmspack said:


> *another clue would be if you see V or VA as part of the achievements or titles this would be German show lines .*
> These would be placements at the major annual conformation show VA being either Sieger or Siegerin .
> Working lines just do not participate -- totally different conformation -- different criterion for breeding . Working lines are not black and red .
> 
> ...


Not always true, my dogs sire is V rated and a working line. Some breeders participate in both the show and the IPO side of things.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

gaia_bear said:


> Not always true, my dogs sire is V rated and a working line. Some breeders participate in both the show and the IPO side of things.


This is what I was asking. If, I guess there could be a line that's balanced on both show and working within the same dog. I don't know enough about how to read them to tell.. I just know the basics.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

wyoung2153 said:


> This is what I was asking. If, I guess there could be a line that's balanced on both show and working within the same dog. I don't know enough about how to read them to tell.. I just know the basics.


It could be a mixture but it could also be a working line breeder who participates in seiger shows. We do IPO but I was encouraged to enter the show at our past regionals to obtain a rating for our Breed Survey once we have a 1.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Interesting.. here's one pedigree.. This is what I was talking about..

V Flora von Blue-Rose


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> hm.. that's really interesting. Sad too.. is there any way to tell if the titles are fake?


Pretty much yes but you have to see the dog in person. Those showline can be trained to do the IPO trial but the difference between a showline and working line is clear as day. Showlines don't have the powerful crushing grip most working dogs are coveted for when biting the sleeve. Most of them have weak nerves and can't take too much pressure and aren't aggressive when doing protection.

That said, there can be a few showline dogs who hit the genetic lottery. I am currently fostering a showline dog for one of my GSD club's members who's away now. The dog is titled IPO2 now and should be going on to IPO3 soon. You wouldn't think he's a show dog if he wasn't black and red.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

wyoung2153 said:


> Interesting.. here's one pedigree.. This is what I was talking about..
> 
> V Flora von Blue-Rose


 
That's a showline as far as I can tell, I think it goes both ways. I know a lot of working line breeders don't bother with the show ring and most show line breeders don't bother with IPO, it all depends on the breeders program.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

That's actually why I was asking... These pedigrees are my own for Titan.. Surprise! I posted them a LONG while ago and a few commented on them but none were really in depth and now that I am a bit more knowledgeabel myself, I was curious and looked them up again. I could swear he was a WL. His drive is nuts and has nerves of steel. We trained SAR for some time and he was amazing... stopped because of life and we moved. Searched for a club and there weren't any near until about a year ago but they were so new I was unsure. 

here is his Father's and I hear he's in the states and does IPO as well. 

VA Ebafarmens Izaro

He is black and red so I suppose that's a big indicator of showline.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The only way to see the quality of the work, is to see the dog work. You might be able to look up YouTube videos, but those dogs are kind of old so there might not be any. You can also kind of tell by the vigor of the performance test at the show the dog got its rating.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I know others have see the Sire work.. he's in the states now. But I cannot say that I have witnessed that. I did meet the Dam but didn't see her work.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wyoung2153 said:


> Interesting.. here's one pedigree.. This is what I was talking about..
> 
> V Flora von Blue-Rose


show lines


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

both the pedigrees are totally showlines.

Yes - there are more and more working lines with V ratings.....still when you see a solid black or a well pigmented sable with a V in front - it is going to be working lines....

Lee


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Nice. Well thanks for the clarification. I have always been a little confused because I thought he was show, but there were so many high ScH Titles I thought.. then working. 

Does SL necessarily mean they don't have drive like a WL? I ask, only because of Titan's Temperament. Or is SL just based on color and bid-ability in the show ring with not much toward drive and temperament?


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> Nice. Well thanks for the clarification. I have always been a little confused because I thought he was show, but there were so many high ScH Titles I thought.. then working.
> 
> Does SL necessarily mean they don't have drive like a WL? I ask, only because of Titan's Temperament. Or is SL just based on color and bid-ability in the show ring with not much toward drive and temperament?


Show lines are all conformation. Anything else and you're depending on the genetic lottery. Same applies for working lines and drives.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

nezzz said:


> Show lines are all conformation. Anything else and you're depending on the genetic lottery. Same applies for working lines and drives.


Thank you! Guess i hit the lottery  lol though I could be bias...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Until you see the drive most people talk about when it comes to schutzhund or real work, you wont quite understand the conversation.

I personally hate talking about generalizations because you end up getting someone somewhere on this forum angry and trying to prove the generalization wrong. But the truth is, the generalization exists for a reason.

So although a dog might be active, do "everyday" things, it doesn't mean it has the type of drive the rest of us value so much in these animals.

My suggestion would be visiting a schutzhund club, hopefully one that has both lines. You'll see quickly why people make the generalizations they do. It doesn't take a lot of advanced knowledge or training to see the difference between the drive dogs show for the work.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Until you see the drive most people talk about when it comes to schutzhund or real work, you wont quite understand the conversation.
> 
> I personally hate talking about generalizations because you end up getting someone somewhere on this forum angry and trying to prove the generalization wrong. But the truth is, the generalization exists for a reason.
> 
> ...


Oh I am not arguing generalizations at all. They exist for a reason, and that's because there is a majority that fall under it. I understand. I have definitely seen drive and see dogs work. Close friends of mine, on here, have 3 of them and I love watching them. There isn't a reliable Schutzhund club in the area that is less than an hour or so drive from me, so I may make the hike one day, but it wouldn't be an all the time thing. 

I would love to say that Titan would be amazing in the field... but I do not know that. I do know that his father is doing Schutzhund here in the states and those that have watched tell me great things. 

I also know the drive he has when it comes to tracking and SAR... which is why we were on a team for about 3 years.. and my goodness he loved every minute of it. Maybe not IPO work but working none the less. It's unfortunate that life circumstances put me in a position to have to quit the team, but such is life. We still do nose work and obedience. I plan to get him into something again when I get back as he really needs a "job" or sport to do again... 

Sure he may be show line but I know he has drive to work work work.. as i have witnessed in SAR training over the years. This dog will quite literally do anything for his ball or tug.. it's made training a bit more fun for me.. and I'll admit challenging too, lol. 

I just liked knowing what you were meaning with pedigrees. Up until this I couldn't tell you about the meaning behind anything on papers, I could just tell you the titles his generations have held and where he was from.

I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain. It was educational for me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

From watching alot of showline dogs being trained over the years - many of them have decent drives....particularly in tracking and aggression in protection....the obedience is usually the problem.

the lack is resilience or biddability in obedience - both in phase B and in phase C....the nuances where you get points, the secondary obedience is usually not there in trials...they will do the bitework, but lack the finesse in the fine points - like a sit when handler stops and waiting for a command before a down - heeling correctly throughout...sitting quietly until released for the long bite...

Many will not display confidence and joy in the work either

Lee


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I appreciate this discussion. I am going to visit a Schutzhund club next Sunday with Simon and hopefully participate each week. I think he will do well in tracking (fantastic in nose work and very focused). I know that tracking is way different than nose work, but it's the focus. When we started nose work, the goofy 7 month old puppy suddenly became an adult when looking for the hide.

I need more direction with obedience and engagement. I don't think he has the biddability that has been talked about. I think, though, that it will be helpful for me to get direction from a GSD experienced trainer and improve our obedience skills.

Bitework? I don't expect much, especially after being on the forum. Simon does have good prey drive, but I am not expecting great nerves under pressure. I did share this with the club contact person and he was still welcoming. I am grateful for any help I can get and Simon does need a job. He is high maintenance and is a teenager saying, "Hey, what's there to do?" He does not settle well in the house--it is the mental stimulation he craves. Always looking for something to do.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> From watching alot of showline dogs being trained over the years - many of them have decent drives....particularly in tracking and aggression in protection....the obedience is usually the problem.
> 
> the lack is resilience or biddability in obedience - both in phase B and in phase C....the nuances where you get points, the secondary obedience is usually not there in trials...they will do the bitework, but lack the finesse in the fine points - like a sit when handler stops and waiting for a command before a down - heeling correctly throughout...sitting quietly until released for the long bite...
> 
> ...


Interesting. Do you think this is just with IPO type work or in a lot of other working or sporting fields?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

wyoung2153 said:


> Interesting. Do you think this is just with IPO type work or in a lot of other working or sporting fields?


training is training.....the character is the same.....I know of showline dogs who are doing AKC obedience and agility and the people have the same issues....a general lack of resilience and dogs who just shut down when asked for precision....if they accept slow or sloppy OB - ie crooked sits, slow sits, lack of intensity/focus, they can get their titles...but they are not getting the same scores that an intense, focused, correct dog is getting...same deal as IPO....I have not seen too many showlines working in agility - but many Euro SL and ASL in obedience and rally classes - most will pass with the generous point allowances in the AKC ring...but it is not as pretty as a WL dog working.

Lee


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

When it is listed before the dog's name, is V/SG/G always a conformation rating? Or is it sometimes listing a performance rating? Example: V Fax vom Haus Bernhart-Mader

That's really interesting about the capabilities of show lines in obedience. Do you think they do not enjoy the work?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

We has a WGSL from a large well-known kennel in our Club for a little while. The issue was exactly as Lee discribed. The dog liked to track, and would have done well in protection as he had real agression in him. But he only did obedience for 10 minutes, then shut down. It was all happy-happy, get the drive up with silly ball playing obedience, but 10 minutes, then he sat down and became 100% unresponsive. Never seen that before.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Kaimeju - yes - the prefix V - Excellent, SG - Very Good, or G - Good - is always cited before the name, titles afterwards....

IMO - from observations - the Sl genetically get some tracking ability/drive, and aggression for protection work.....I have seen many being trained who are constantly popped HARD with a prong for the hold and bark for example and they amp up.....

A couple of very very good SL people have told me that they just don't have the drive in obedience and shut down....compulsion is more common (or WAS!) in teh training I have watched....and even teaching simple things in protection like blinds showed the same glaring issues in trying to get correct behaviors...the biting part was not the issue....most I have watched are happy to get bites....the drive to carry though the OB routine was hard to come by....actually the 2 best dogs I watched, even helped with were SG dogs and pets and they were bypassed as tehy would not be in front in conformation classes...

Lee


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I know that generalizations are made for a reason. Here's another thought: how many experienced serious trainers work showlines? High level obedience tests the trainer just as much as the dog, and a handler new to dog sports is not a fair comparison regardless of the dog. 

I have a WGSL. We do AKC obedience/rally, IPO, and agility, and he is my first dog to do any sport with. He is 19 months old and has his BH (under SV judge Elmar Mannes) and CGC. He is a nice dog. He does not have the same intensity/focus as a high drive working line, but he does well and we have fun. He is a good dog to learn with and is very forgiving. He does not shut down after 10 minutes of obedience, nor have I needed to use compulsion to motivate him to work with me. He enjoys tracking and nose work. He also loves bite work - he has plenty of joy in doing the work. Maybe I lucked out in the genetic lottery? 

If people want to learn about the different lines, the best way is to go out and watch the dogs work. You won't learn much from the interwebs, no matter how heated the discussions get.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Like I said - I have seen a few that worked decently - but again, it is a generalization....

Lee


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

This is all very interesting to me  Thank you guys for humoring my questions.. sorry to the OP if I stole your thread. 

Is it pretty standard that a black and red be SL only or are there WL that have black and reds/tans?


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## reptilejason (May 21, 2015)

"sorry to the OP if I stole your thread. "

You are forgiven


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Ha! Thanks!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

there are some occassional working lines who are black and red/tan .....but their structure is obviously different....and not usually the perfect black saddle .........again, when in doubt - look at the pedigrees and photos of previous generations....it will be obvious if they ARE showlines....

Lee


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Cool.  Thank you!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

wyoung2153 said:


> This is all very interesting to me  Thank you guys for humoring my questions.. sorry to the OP if I stole your thread.
> 
> Is it pretty standard that a black and red be SL only or are there WL that have black and reds/tans?


The sire of my upcoming litter is black/tan and West German WL.

4/16/15 by Alexis Roy, on Flickr

Gordon v Kellnerhof by Alexis Roy, on Flickr

And my female's dam is also black/tan WGWL.

5/26/15 by Alexis Roy, on Flickr


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Gets further confusing, looking at my boy you would probably think he's pure showline, he's 50% west German showline and the other half is mostly west German working and a couple DDR.

Herding Jan 2015 by Carriesue82, on Flickr

Jan 2015 by Carriesue82, on Flickr


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I love exceptions to the rule! Thanks for sharing them


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> We has a WGSL from a large well-known kennel in our Club for a little while. The issue was exactly as Lee discribed. The dog liked to track, and would have done well in protection as he had real agression in him. But he only did obedience for 10 minutes, then shut down. It was all happy-happy, get the drive up with silly ball playing obedience, but 10 minutes, then he sat down and became 100% unresponsive. Never seen that before.


This is what I see in my WGSL. Having started with a club, I can see WLs have the obedience piece, while my guy is bored unless being constantly fed. The food goes away (or tug or ball) and the party is over in obedience. This is my first GSD. My last three dogs had bidability (herding breeds) and that lulled me into thinking I was good with dogs. I have never worked so hard as a handler to motivate and train my WGSL. He's a great pet and wonderful company at home. On the field in obedience, I look bad.


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