# Two questions:



## mtman (Feb 22, 2009)

I follow this web site and a few others on GSD's. This is by far one of the best ones I view. We don't breed, we are not a rescue, we are just a family who has rescued two GSD's and are giving them a balanced and full life. Now my questions:
1) some of the poster's have titles like Senior, Elite, Master, Crowned, Knighted. I can't seem to locate in the site what these mean. Anyone know?
2) I went on Petfinders by breed and there are over 1700 GSD's that need help or adoption. GSD's are cute puppies but grow up fast. Then people discard them. Since there is a breeders forum on this site I then wonder why they are breeding so many GSD's that end up being pts or treated badly? If the breeders slowed down wouldn't that help those discarded dogs find some homes? Probably a stupid question but if the supply were cut down maybe the demand would shift to young or adult dogs. Like I say probably a real stupid question.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

I can answer the first one it depends on how many posts you have and when you post so many then the title changes. I am not sure what the exact break down is.

Welcome


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

From FAQ:
What are these titles about? 
Everyone has a title within the forum. You will notice the title below the Display Name in each post. Some titles are automatically assigned based on the number of posts a user has made, and some titles are assigned by the forum owner to denote official representatives of the company or other VIPs in the forums. 


0	New Member
25	Junior Member
50	Member
200	Senior Member
500	Master Member
1000	Elite Member
2000	Knighted Member
3500	Crowned Member


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Bruce Mc2) I went on Petfinders by breed and there are over 1700 GSD's that need help or adoption. GSD's are cute puppies but grow up fast. Then people discard them. Since there is a breeders forum on this site I then wonder why they are breeding so many GSD's that end up being pts or treated badly? If the breeders slowed down wouldn't that help those discarded dogs find some homes?


There are 1) breeders breeding to better or maintain the breed, and there are 2) those who breed to make a buck, or whatever other myriad of reasons.

The first are not really contributing to the overpopulation problem for the most part. The breed and place their puppies carefully and take back a dog at any point in the dogs life if the owner can not keep him/her.

The second, well...










Seriously, read up on the breeder forum and you will learn a lot about quality well thought out breeding.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hi BruceMc, welcome to the board. 

I breed Germanshepherd Dogs. 

There are some 1700 GSDs on petfinder needing to be rehomed you say, so why do we breed dogs. 

I would venture to guess that there are several puppy mills that put out over a thousand GSDs a year. You hear about them now and again. 600 dogs siezed, over 1000 dogs siezed. These are people that breed their bitches every season, and have maybe a hundred or more. 

They do not feed excellent food, or provide proper care for their dogs. 

Mostly the law provides that the dog must have enough space to lie down, stand up, and turn around without hitting the sides of their enclosure, some of their dogs have no more room than this for their lives. 

They do not care about socializing their dogs or their puppies. 

They do not do health checks. They do not breed to improve their lines. They pick whatever stud is available and go full speed ahead. 

Their dogs and puppies are kept in poor conditions, if they are AKC, they can expect to be checked at some point. When their privledges are suspended, they go to CKC, or any other registry who is willing to sell them a pedigree for a fee. 

Sometimes the government shuts them down do to disease and neglect. 

They do not breed to stay within the standard. 

They do not breed for working ability.

They do not breed for health or trainablility.

When a dog becomes too old or sick to reproduce, they euthanize it or dump it. 

They produce puppies wholesale for pet stores around the country. 

People pay $800 to $1500 for these puppies. They are sold to the first person who places an unmaxed credit card down with no questions asked. 

These people WILL NOT STOP breeding dogs. 

I do not want the future of the German Shepherd Dog breed to be left in the hands of these unscrupulous people. 

I applaud breeders who continue to breed dogs properly, even though the general opinion of breeders has been assaulted to the point that new laws being proposed include fingerprinting, like we must be criminals to be breeding dogs. 

People who breed dogs properly do health checks,

raise the litter until it is eight weeks old, 

sell directly to puppy buyers and screen them, 

make choices about their matings in order to improve their lines, 

make tough choices about whether or not to use a bitch or a dog by going through a series of tests generally with outside judges so that the dog accomplishes a certain level and the owner feels good about how the dog accomplishes that level before using them for breeding,

feed decent food, provide good veterinary care, provide a clean and adequate environment for the dogs,

groom and excersize their dogs regularly, 

provide eight weeks of careful handling and socialization to a new litter,

take calls from puppy buyers and potential puppy buyers, answering questions, giving advice, etc., 

listen to potential customers tell them that they can buy one for $200 down the street, and know that it is true.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Bruce Mc
> 
> Since there is a breeders forum on this site I then wonder why they are breeding so many GSD's that end up being pts or treated badly? If the breeders slowed down wouldn't that help those discarded dogs find some homes?


Good, responsible, REPUTABLE breeders aren't the problem. (Breeders like most of the ones on this board.) IF breeders like that stopped breeding, it would NOT make a nickles worth of difference as far as the dogs in rescue getting a home. A lot of their buyers would just move to a different breed as they are looking for something specific in a puppy. If they couldn't get that from a breeder they would NOT go to a rescue because they aren't going to get it there either.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1) your title changes with the number of posts you make.

2) it's not the reputable breeders or responsible owners causing the problem with Rescues being full. nor is it the reputable breeders or responsible owners causing the over poplation of the breed. 



> Originally Posted By: Bruce McI follow this web site and a few others on GSD's. This is by far one of the best ones I view. We don't breed, we are not a rescue, we are just a family who has rescued two GSD's and are giving them a balanced and full life. Now my questions:
> 1) some of the poster's have titles like Senior, Elite, Master, Crowned, Knighted. I can't seem to locate in the site what these mean. Anyone know?
> 2) I went on Petfinders by breed and there are over 1700 GSD's that need help or adoption. GSD's are cute puppies but grow up fast. Then people discard them. Since there is a breeders forum on this site I then wonder why they are breeding so many GSD's that end up being pts or treated badly? If the breeders slowed down wouldn't that help those discarded dogs find some homes? Probably a stupid question but if the supply were cut down maybe the demand would shift to young or adult dogs. Like I say probably a real stupid question.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Bruce Mc this is a GREAT question!



> Quote: Since there is a breeders forum on this site I then wonder why they are breeding so many GSD's that end up being pts or treated badly? If the breeders slowed down wouldn't that help those discarded dogs find some homes?


And you've got some great answers! Basically there are people that just breed (you have a dog, I have a dog, let's have puppies), puppy mills, and then there are RESPONSIBLE breeders. Generally you'll see it's the 'responsible' breeders that are on this site giving information and hanging around.

Difference being, a 'responsible' breeder is responsible for every puppy they 'make' for it's entire life! When they sell most of their puppies, it's with an involved agreement/contract, and most of the puppies come with a limited registry. Meaning if I breed a puppy with a limited registry, none of those puppies can be registered. Period. And since you get more money for an 'AKC' registered puppy than not, that just is another good reason to spay/neuter that puppy when it comes of age. Part of the agreement when you buy these puppies is if there is a problem later on in it's life, no matter when you must contact the breeder first cause they will take it back. No shelter. No rescue. No drama. They know it's still their responsiblity. 

So the problem isn't just that there are too many GSD breeders so too many GSD's. The problem is not enough of these breeders are 'responsible' breeders and doing the right thing by the dogs they bring onto this earth.

These sites explain better:

http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/ethics.html

http://dogs.about.com/cs/before/a/ethical_breeder.htm

http://dogs.about.com/cs/generalcare/a/pet_stores.htm

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/responbr.html


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## mtman (Feb 22, 2009)

Wow, I guess it wasn't such a dumb question after all. What good responses. Thank you all, I'm far more informed. After reading the informative responses it brings me to another question. Clearly there are responsible breeders which I had suspected already. Even though it looks like they are in the minority. 
Isn't there a way those breeders couldn't get together and press for some legislation that would favor responsible breeders instead of these shotgun attempts at legislation which probably don't do a bit of good? Get the ear of some legislator to propose some laws that would eliminate these money grubbing back yard breeders that could care less about the animal and its welfare. Any law maker with a GSD should be willing to listen. I'm not a breeder so this comes from someone who is totally outside the loop but loves his dogs tremendously and realizes their value as intelligent, loving, loyal etc..


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The problem with any legislation is there is no way to ensure that it only affects the bad breeders, not the good ones too. Also, once legislation is passed, it makes it easier to pass stricter and stricter legislation that would negatively impact everyone. Most of this legislation comes from animal rights extremists like PETA, and is geared toward eliminating breeding of any kind. Even the most benign legislation is going to be expensive and difficult to enforce. If it's not enforced it's useless. And it paves the road for harsher and harsher legislation that affects the good people as well as the bad. Plus, as has been seen with anti-puppy mill legislation, once it passes in one area the mills just find ways around it, or pick up and move to another state and keep doing what they are doing.

Far better, and more successful in the long run, for responsible breeders and other enthusiasts to put their efforts into educating the dog buying public. If people stopped supporting the bad breeders, the bad breeders would go out of business and find other ways to make money. 

Legislating responsibility and morality is not the purpose of government, and in reality never works. The honest, responsible people follow the rules, those who are dishonest or don't bother to even learn the rules, slip through the cracks and keep doing what they are doing. Educate people so they have the tools to make responsible and moral decisions, and most people will do choose to make those good decisions, and the problem is fixed once and for all. Most people just don't have the knowledge to do so... they think a dog is a dog and a breeder is a breeder. Teach them the truth, an they'll vote with their wallet and the bad breeders will be gone for good.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Far better, and more successful in the long run, for responsible breeders and other enthusiasts to put their efforts into educating the dog buying public. If people stopped supporting the bad breeders, the bad breeders would go out of business and find other ways to make money.












I do think what would help a lot is outlawing the sale of puppies in pet stores. I can't think of a slippery slope for that one, but you never know with government...


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## mtman (Feb 22, 2009)

Boy, after reading this I'm much more informed but more depressed. Bad breeders seem to have more working for them than decent and honest breeders. In the meantime there are 1700 +, very intelligent, loyal, loving and excellent companions needing help and so few people to help. And this only is referring to one breed. I guess my question wasn't so stupid after all but the answers are very depressing. And the only ones who really suffer are the GSD's.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

This is exactly why fanciers of the less popular breeds are so thankful of their popularity- less dogs in need of homes!

Education, not legislation, is the answer. We live in a throwaway society where people can toss their dog if they get sick of it, we're also an impulsive society where we want something NOW even though we haven't really done the research, and then also we want results NOW even though we don't want to take the time to train. You're right, the ones that always suffer most are the poor dogs.


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## mtman (Feb 22, 2009)

Wish I didn't agree with you DianaM but I do. I read somewhere that the Gov't took over a house of prostution in Nevada for back taxes. They tried to run it to recoup the back taxes and had to close it up because they couldn't make a go of it. If they can't run a house of prostution and make a go of it, they can't do much.


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