# What to do when...



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

1. I give a command and he doesn't do it (assuming he knows what I'm asking)
2. How to know when the dog knows a command
3. In the park (if I had a yard I wouldn't go to the park, so please no comments about how bad they are. I know. I'm taking ideas for off leash exercise except a park though. I don't go to a dog park, I go to a regular park that allows off leash dogs when it's closed. I'm there always late at night and there's usually a few dogs) when off leash he will run up and bark at people that are passing by (not all) and dogs that are coming in (all). In some cases he's probably greeting them but in others it's aggression or fear aggression. I usually say come and go the other way and in a few seconds he runs to me. In a few cases he didn't. What should i do?

I have a few more questions but these are pressing so I'm starting with them. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I tried adding this to my original post and it wouldn't let me

ETA might as well list them all

4. How many diff commands can I work on teaching in one day
5. How do I get a reliable recall and how long it takes? I'm looking for answers like 'Michael Ellis' method worked for me', you don't have to spell it out for me)))))
6. When to correct a dog
7. If my dog doesn't know how to loose leash walk and pulls on walks, what do I do? It's hard not losing patience and correcting him though I'm trying. I know it's my fault, not his but its still hard. 

That's it for now)))) 


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> 1. I give a command and he doesn't do it (assuming he knows what I'm asking)
> 2. How to know when the dog knows a command


research clicker training and train at home with a platform or 2. It may help.

Also some form of reward is used to make sure the dog acts on command. You need to modify the reward or else it becomes boring. The dog knows what it will get so is not motivated. Trick is to keep the dog guessing and use various methods of reward. Tug and ball play is a good way to train as well as food. Depends what the dog likes. It is all about balance. You spend ages teaching a down and when you say sit the dog lies down. It takes time for you to work out a method that works and then you need to modify it and learn what doesn't help you and what does help you.

Also a correction is useful to snap a dog into it. 

There are loads of different methods. You can correct a dog quickly while saying sit and he is gonna sit pretty quick next time. You can use corrections to correct a behavior or teach the dog to avoid the corrections by doing what you ask straight away. It is up to the owner or trainer. For me slight negative enforcement saves me getting frustrated as the dog is more obedient.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I wanted to split #1 into 2 parts

1a. What to do when I give a command off leash (and he's out of my reach, like 'come') and he doesn't do it
1b. What to do when I give a command when he's on leash (like 'sit') and he doesn't do it. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> research clicker training and train at home with a platform or 2. It may help.
> 
> Also some form of reward is used to make sure the dog acts on command. You need to modify the reward or else it becomes boring. The dog knows what it will get so is not motivated. Trick is to keep the dog guessing and use various methods of reward. Tug and ball play is a good way to train as well as food. Depends what the dog likes. It is all about balance. You spend ages teaching a down and when you say sit the dog lies down. It takes time for you to work out a method that works and then you need to modify it and learn what doesn't help you and what does help you.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I should've added. I'm marker training using both food and tug following 2 Michael Ellis videos. These rr the questions i have when I'm trying to do what he teaches. 



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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> 3. In the park. I go to a regular park that allows off leash dogs when it's closed. I'm there always late at night and there's usually a few dogs) when off leash he will run up and bark at people that are passing by. I say come and go the other way and in a few seconds he runs to me. In a few cases he didn't. What should i do?


Use a long leash. Each time the dog runs up , it is enforcing it's behavior. Dogs love barking and if it scares people all the better. They will use the same trick next time and some day somebody will run and the chase will be on. Or a dog will run away and your dog will chase it out onto a busy road. Basically your playing with something you don't understand. It's all very well to go off leash, but it's a different story if the dog bites somebody.

Your method of walking the other way is also risky. Basically you don't have any good way to deal with this situation as it's out of your control until the dog is back on leash. If you go behind your dog to catch it, it will get closer to the person or dog it's barking at. It feels you are wanting it to proceed. 

If it happens, one way to try deal with it is circle the dog and come between the dog and what it is barking at. It depends on the energy of the dog and how he sees you. You should be able to make him realize you don't like it. If you correct the dog it may try to dodge you. And if you don't let the dog know that behavior is not acceptable it will do it again.

E collar is the only real method for delivering a correction to a dog from a distance. Other way is chase the dog and let it know not to go after strangers or you'll come after it. A long lead is a safer way until off leash is possible.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> 1a. What to do when I give a command off leash (and he's out of my reach, like 'come') and he doesn't do it


Off leash you have no real way to do it other than your voice. The motivation of seeing another dog or suspicious stranger is much higher than you calling your dog back to you holding a tug or a piece of hot dog. Over time when you increase the dogs desire for these items and it gets used to distractions then a simple 'here boy' might work.

The dog will not come back to you unless your voice carries power with the dog. Best way is to train it with a long leash or go for the e collar. These kinds of conflicts in training are discussed in Schutzhund books and manuals. A dog is wired for survival not how we wish it will act.



> 1b. What to do when I give a command when he's on leash (like 'sit') and he doesn't do it.


Try a leash pop and say sit. Or say sit and if the dog doesn't sit you leash pop. Walk on. Try again and see the dog will avoid the leash pop and will sit. When it sits give praise or a treat.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Use a long leash. Each time the dog runs up , it is enforcing it's behavior. Dogs love barking and if it scares people all the better. They will use the same trick next time and some day somebody will run and the chase will be on. Or a dog will run away and your dog will chase it out onto a busy road. Basically your playing with something you don't understand. It's all very well to go off leash, but it's a different story if the dog bites somebody.
> 
> Your method of walking the other way is also risky. *Basically you don't have any good way to deal with this situation as it's out of your control until the dog is back on leash.* If you go behind your dog to catch it, it will get closer to the person or dog it's barking at. It feels you are wanting it to proceed.
> 
> ...


i definitely don't, most of the time he does this i don't do anything at all because i don't know what to do and i don't want to do something that will make it worse.

i use the long lead after he annoys me enough with doing it but it's not safe to do any kind of exercise with it on. there were many times his legs got tangled up in it and he fell and a few times it looked straight up dangerous.


basically my dilemma is to exercise him and to have control. as much as i was hoping to do without the shock collar i might have to get one. it seems like using a shock collar is taking a shortcut and i don't like them, i like challenges.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

1. Repeat. Patience patience patience... that's what training is all about. IF he knows what you are asking and refuses..... "No... -command-". If he needs a little help, do so (in example... with the sit, maybe bring the toy or treat over his head, helping him to automatically put his but down.. and praise him). But, honestly, if he ignored multiple times over and over... it's time to start at the basics again as a "refresher course". Pups sometimes need this. If you're only working in an area that is very distracting, try to work somewhere quiet first. Distraction is good to add later, but for a pup learning the ropes, it's best to make it a nice quiet calm room first.... this way you have his full attention. He's more likely to pick it up.... pups are like children, there's NO way you're teaching a young child math at a playground where all his friends are. Or doing a home schooling session at Disney. Later, you'll be able to add that in and it will definitely help to "lock down" the commands.
2. You'll know when you've removed "helper aids"... so no more lifting the toy for sit, or lowing the toy for down (or if you use treats.. the same thing), you're not helping him to understand... if you can repeat the command without aiding the dog I'd say about 6 times or more.... he's got it. If you continuously have to remind, or help... then go back to basics. Eventually you can start weaning off the aids. Every dog takes a different amount of time.
3. If at all possible, please at least keep a long lead on him. This is to keep him safe and others. Pups are pups... heck even older dogs... are capable of giving you the bird and doing what they want. Especially in drive (see a cat, squirrel, dog they don't like, etc). I understand the reasons, but do the best you can to keep yours safe as much as possible. At least with a long line, you can catch him if he goes running off, or reel him in if you see a possible dangerous situation brewing up. Don't allow those few seconds either. Correct with the leash, and gain his attention elsewhere. If you allow him to sit and stare... it's going to start building into something worse. Don't allow this, immediately re-direct him. Be proactive.... if you see a dog coming in, or a person walking by... immediately get him to focus on something else. If he doesn't bark, or doesn't react, praise. If this gets worse, you'll really want to see a professional though. What I suggested worked for my dogs... but, I don't know exactly what's going on, what your dog does, what his behavior is.. etc. Without a video and being there to witness him, it's hard to say. But, for now, redirection and a long line would be a great idea. 
4. I forgot his age (sorry :blush, with pups just starting out with commands I really only do (depending on age and each ind. dog) about 2-3 commands a day. Start easy... then work up the ladder. If the dog has decent work ethic and drives, you may be able to do 2 short training sessions a day (if not.. probably 1).... I wouldn't work on too much too long. Keep it active, keep it moving. Don't stop and let the drive (and attention) drop constantly. (When Storm was 2-3 months, we only did two 5 min. sessions a day.... then worked up from there. Right now at 1.5, I don't do more than 20min with her, and that's where her threshold lies... all dogs are different. I never let me sessions end too late when the dogs already dropped focus, energy, and drives.... we end on a good note and her wanting more.)
5. Recalls are tough to actually get "reliable". In fact, most dogs don't have a true reliable recall. Out of my 3, Duke is it. I could call Duke off a bite on the field right as he's launching.... he's solid. However, he's 3.5yrs old, an "I'll do anything to please you" type, and we worked on that with lots of repetition and patience since I got him at 2. It takes a while, and it takes a solid foundation. What I said about the long line above will help you. Ellis is always great too for suggestions. Also, just as a tip... NEVER correct a dog for coming back to you... regardless what they did previous. If they run off, and like 20min later decide to come back.. don't correct. That'll only make the dog afraid of coming back to you, thinking every time he'll be corrected and you'll be angry at him. Good boy for coming back..... start back on the basics again. For my dogs, I make it a game. It's always a fun time when they come back to me. With Duke.. when he'd come back, I'd have the tug ready for him to grab, and we'd have a little tugging match. Later on when he got the idea... we cleaned it up and introduced the front and center, and then back to basic position (sit at the left side of handler). In the beginning just keep it up beat and fun to do. Much more fun than running off!!
6. That's a loaded and vague question. There's different types of corrections, and different times to use them.... Though, if I'm just using the umbrella word of "correction".... a dog should be corrected when they get/do something wrong. You correct, have them do it the right way so they understand, and reward... rinse and repeat. If you don't always catch it, or let them get away with it.... that loses your consistency, and the dog will never really learn.
7. Leash training 101. If a dog pulls, start back with the basics. Foundations are everything. With mine, if they pull... they don't get to go where they want. I'll either turn them around completely in a fast pace and walk the other way every single time.... OR I'll simply stop and they have to sit, focus on me.... and we continue our walk when they relax. With the young dogs.. I tried making the walks more interactive too and not mind numbing (or they'd just find bad things to focus on), I would add commands randomly. I'd stop and make them sit and focus on me, or add in a simple sit, down, stand.... I'd add in "fuss"/heel for a few steps, or "here" and make them front and center... etc. That worked well with mine, and with those few things... mine stopped pulling. 

Everything with a pup takes patience. It won't happen overnight... but if you're consistent, and really really keep up with working with him... he'll get it. Just remember to not rush, let the pup learn and grow at a pace that's good or him. If the foundation is bad, it'll all crumble eventually. This part of training is the most important no matter what you're training or for what purpose.... sporting, family dog, working dog... etc. So just make sure you're not skipping ahead too fast or asking for too much too soon. 

Also, these are just suggestions for what worked with my dogs.... each dog is different, each handler is different.. etc. It may help, it may not. I suggest trying them out, and what others say if it sounds reasonable... and see what works best for you two. If it doesn't, try something else. Dog training is not black and white, it's not 1 answer. No one will ever be 100% correct, and not everyone has to be wrong. With that said... Ellis is great. Leerburg posts a LOT of great little clips of him on youtube, and they are certainly worth watching for some suggestions.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> 7. If my dog doesn't know how to loose leash walk and pulls on walks, what do I do? It's hard not losing patience and correcting him though I'm trying. I know it's my fault, not his but its still hard.


Practice about turns. The dog will start to look to you as it is trying to anticipate you turning. I use leash pops. I place the collar on tightly, high on the dogs neck under the chin so I control the head rather than battle the dogs powerful shoulder and drive.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> If it happens, one way to try deal with it is circle the dog and come between the dog and what it is barking at. It depends on the energy of the dog and *how he sees you*. You should be able to make him realize you don't like it. If you correct the dog it may try to dodge you. And if you don't let the dog know that behavior is not acceptable it will do it again.


what do you mean by this? whether he will try to protest in some way? i don't think he's that far gone ahead. here are the things that make me feel like not all hope is lost

he usually looks at me every few moments or so, as if to see what my reaction is to whatever he's doing
anytime i come to get him from these actouts he puts his head and ears down and overall acts submissively, he def knows i don't like it but i agree, to him doing this is so rewarding that he can't control himself.

i realize that all his problems are coming because i'm doing things wrong, if i knew what i was doing i could've stopped it when it was first starting but i didn't realize it's a problem until it was pretty serious.

ok then, what's a good shock collar? there was a few times he ran up to people and looked straight up scary, i can't risk this.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Practice about turns. The dog will start to look to you as it is trying to anticipate you turning. I use leash pops. I place the collar on tightly, high on the dogs neck under the chin so I control the head rather than battle the dogs powerful shoulder and drive.


i did this at the beginning, that's how i got him to walk pretty decent. he only pulls sometimes.

but i stopped doing it when i realized that this is an old school way of doing it, leerburg calls it 'yank and crank')))))


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I wanted to split #1 into 2 parts
> 
> 1a. What to do when I give a command off leash (and he's out of my reach, like 'come') and he doesn't do it
> 1b. What to do when I give a command when he's on leash (like 'sit') and he doesn't do it.
> ...


Didn't see this part.... On leash, what I said in my previous post. Off leash (try not to do too much completely off leash in large spaces when working with a young dog in training)... Let's just say it happens, he's off leash and he gets up from a command..... don't yell at him, don't make him nervous to come back to you, just get him back (no praise... just nothing)... repeat the command... this time add a leash (long line, reg. leash, or tab) and work on it again when you actually have the dog controlled. Honestly, with a young dog without a solid understanding of the foundation work, you just don't gain a lot from off-leash work... it can actually really do some damage to what you've already trained. It's not consistent, and it's really hard to actually show the dog what you are asking of him.

So my answer would be.... stick with the leash for now. It'll all come together eventually, but for right now, a leash (of any form) should be your best friend.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> i use the long lead after he annoys me enough with doing i*t but it's not safe *to do any kind of exercise with it on. there were many times his legs got tangled up in it and he fell and a few times it looked straight up dangerous.


 Sorry I know you love your dog but it is more not sfae to allow such a dog free to act as it likes. Everybody uses long lines. I've never heard of an accident.



> basically my dilemma is to exercise him and to have control. as much as i was hoping to do without the shock collar i might have to get one. it seems like using a shock collar is taking a shortcut and i don't like them, i like challenges.


Do you have a bicycle? Can you jog? Those are both good methods of exercising the dog and it must continue with you and so will learn to avoid distractions. I bet your dog only acts up when you are stationary and it is defending you and it's perceived territory. When you move you the dogs mind is in a different mode. 

E collar is a communication device. It is the most effective way to deliver a correction off leash. I don't use one at the moment but am looking into it as I would see it clearing up different problems i experience with my training. If you use it once a week to stop this aggression towards strangers then it is saving you a lot of hasstle.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

lalachka said:


> i did this at the beginning, that's how i got him to walk pretty decent. he only pulls sometimes.
> 
> but i stopped doing it when i realized that this is an old school way of doing it, leerburg calls it 'yank and crank')))))


Ok.. if you leash pop the dog hard enough to fling them... then yes, you are doing "yank and crank". But a simple pop on the leash is not that dramatic and I don't see that as the old school 'yank and crank'. What MadLab said before is what I used too. I didn't "yank" or "crank" anything.... it's a pop to the collar, and a turn.... gets the dog's attention and it's the perfect time for rewarding. turn and pop at the same time with the command.... he turns, follows and looks at you.. reward. That's what you want. You want him to always be ready to get a command... 



lalachka said:


> i definitely don't, most of the time he does this i don't do anything at all because i don't know what to do and i don't want to do something that will make it worse.
> 
> i use the long lead after he annoys me enough with doing it but it's not safe to do any kind of exercise with it on. there were many times his legs got tangled up in it and he fell and a few times it looked straight up dangerous.
> 
> ...


But see... this is inconsistency. Instead... beat the system and don't allow that to get so far. Put the long line on right away, and be consistent with your training. Get everything solid before going further. My dogs are not allowed off leash either. If I'm in a safe environment, I'll attach a long line. Duke is the only one I'll let off leash in a secured area, and even then I'm super cautious and he has the e-collar on. Otherwise, I use 4-6' leashes at all times.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *MadLab*
> _If it happens, one way to try deal with it is circle the dog and come between the dog and what it is barking at. It depends on the energy of the dog and *how he sees you*. You should be able to make him realize you don't like it. If you correct the dog it may try to dodge you. And if you don't let the dog know that behavior is not acceptable it will do it again._
> *what do you mean by this? *


Basically if the dog is respectful of you and your discipline then when you shout 'NO' or 'OFF' and recall it then it should do it.

It takes training. It takes time for any dog to learn as it is only acting on it's instincts.

If your dog ignores you it tells you something. It doesn't associate your voice with any correction. As I said it is related to the dogs temperament and how it sees you. Do you have power over the dog when not leashed to you.

Reason for me wanting an e collar is it is a silent correction. I don't need to shout threats at my dog or use any physical punishment. Instead I would have the option to correct on different levels using the e collar.



> he usually looks at me every few moments or so, as if to see what my reaction is to whatever he's doing
> anytime i come to get him from these actouts he puts his head and ears down and overall acts submissively, he def knows i don't like it but i agree, to him doing this is so rewarding that he can't control himself.


That is a good sign. When the dog looks at you, if you scream 'here' then it might get through to it. It acting submissively is the dog realizing it has disappointed you. It is good but still the initial behavior is self rewarding as you know. Over time the dog will learn these distractions aren't worth the hassle.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

MadLab said:


> Sorry I know you love your dog but it is more not sfae to allow such a dog free to act as it likes. Everybody uses long lines. I've never heard of an accident.
> *Agreed. The dog doesn't have to be off leash 100% to have fun or play ball... or do anything active. It's not unsafe if you're careful. Don't let it wrap around their legs or get tangled in it, and you'll be fine. As long as their is no leash loop (handle) on the long line, you won't have too much trouble. If yours does have the handle, simply cut it off or buy another without. It's MUCH more dangerous for your dog to be off leash, and not to mention, you won't get any useful training in anyways.*
> 
> 
> ...


I *think* the dog is super young (if not, ignore this)... I wouldn't suggest biking or jogging with the dog until he's matured and his growth plates are closed. You can actually cause a lot of strain to his bones (especially hips and elbows, which this breed is already notorious for). For right now, the pup should be running and jumping on his own terms. If he doesn't want to, don't force it. 

Some great ways to work out energy in a pup is to play fetch, take them swimming, work on some fun obedience work (high intensity, keep it fun, and at a faster pace like I mentioned earlier), or hide some treats/toys around your house... or start tracking out in the park you go to.... play tug.... get a flirt pole.... etc. There's many other ways to do tire them out.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I agree pop and turn does not equate to yank and crank.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

First of all, thank you both for all the suggestions. I’m putting together a cheat sheet of what to do when things happen.
I catch myself standing frozen with a blank brain when he does something I’m not prepared for and not react on time or at all and that just reinforces it. so I’m trying to come up with ways to deal with his problems and memorizing and practicing them so that I’m always prepared






TrickyShepherd said:


> 1. Repeat. Patience patience patience... that's what training is all about. IF he knows what you are asking and refuses..... "No... -command-". If he needs a little help, do so (in example... with the sit, maybe bring the toy or treat over his head, helping him to automatically put his but down.. and praise him). But, honestly, if he ignored multiple times over and over... it's time to start at the basics again as a "refresher course". Pups sometimes need this. If you're only working in an area that is very distracting, try to work somewhere quiet first. Distraction is good to add later, but for a pup learning the ropes, it's best to make it a nice quiet calm room first.... this way you have his full attention. He's more likely to pick it up.... pups are like children, there's NO way you're teaching a young child math at a playground where all his friends are. Or doing a home schooling session at Disney. Later, you'll be able to add that in and it will definitely help to "lock down" the commands.


I’m talking about things he definitely knows, for example, for 6 months he knows he has to sit when I open the doors, I know he knows because if I pause and don’t open the door because he’s not sitting – he will sit. So there are times when I say sit and he won’t, he’s sniffing or looking at someone. I’m thinking maybe it’s also my fault, I don’t always say SIT, I sometimes just wait for him to do it because he usually does.

This training thing is not simple at all!!!! I will try from now on to always say SIT and see what happens in a few weeks





TrickyShepherd;4173010. said:


> You'll know when you've removed "helper aids"... so no more lifting the toy for sit, or lowing the toy for down (or if you use treats.. the same thing), you're not helping him to understand... if you can repeat the command without aiding the dog I'd say about 6 times or more.... he's got it. If you continuously have to remind, or help... then go back to basics. Eventually you can start weaning off the aids. Every dog takes a different amount of time.


Got it but isn’t it possible that he knows the command and just doesn’t want to listen? That’s what I’m trying to understand, when do I start assuming he’s not listening so that I know to correct him?




TrickyShepherd said:


> 3. If at all possible, please at least keep a long lead on him. This is to keep him safe and others. Pups are pups... heck even older dogs... are capable of giving you the bird and doing what they want. Especially in drive (see a cat, squirrel, dog they don't like, etc). I understand the reasons, but do the best you can to keep yours safe as much as possible. At least with a long line, you can catch him if he goes running off, or reel him in if you see a possible dangerous situation brewing up. Don't allow those few seconds either. Correct with the leash, and gain his attention elsewhere. If you allow him to sit and stare... it's going to start building into something worse. Don't allow this, immediately re-direct him. Be proactive.... if you see a dog coming in, or a person walking by... immediately get him to focus on something else. If he doesn't bark, or doesn't react, praise. If this gets worse, you'll really want to see a professional though. What I suggested worked for my dogs... but, I don't know exactly what's going on, what your dog does, what his behavior is.. etc. Without a video and being there to witness him, it's hard to say. But, for now, redirection and a long line would be a great idea.


I thought about this some more and I’m ready to give up the exercise for a few weeks and keep him on the long line. I really want to try doing it without the ecollar, so I will try this first.




TrickyShepherd said:


> 4. I forgot his age (sorry ), with pups just starting out with commands I really only do (depending on age and each ind. dog) about 2-3 commands a day. Start easy... then work up the ladder. If the dog has decent work ethic and drives, you may be able to do 2 short training sessions a day (if not.. probably 1).... I wouldn't work on too much too long.





TrickyShepherd said:


> *Keep it active, keep it moving. Don't stop and let the drive (and attention) drop constantly.*(When Storm was 2-3 months, we only did two 5 min. sessions a day.... then worked up from there. Right now at 1.5, I don't do more than 20min with her, and that's where her threshold lies... all dogs are different. I never let me sessions end too late when the dogs already dropped focus, energy, and drives.... we end on a good note and her wanting more.)


Assuming that for a few weeks he will be on a long leash, what do you mean keep it active, keep it moving? Just always walking around? I’m in the park once a day, around 10-11 pm for 2-3 hours. i don’t know if I myself can keep it moving for 2-3 hours non stop))))) though I will try. I usually do short play sessions with him, then let him do whatever for 2-3 mins then again for the entire time we are there.
What do you do when you take them outside?




TrickyShepherd said:


> 5. Recalls are tough to actually get "reliable". In fact, most dogs don't have a true reliable recall. Out of my 3, Duke is it. I could call Duke off a bite on the field right as he's launching.... he's solid. However, he's 3.5yrs old, an "I'll do anything to please you" type, and we worked on that with lots of repetition and patience since I got him at 2. It takes a while, and it takes a solid foundation. What I said about the long line above will help you. Ellis is always great too for suggestions. Also, just as a tip...





TrickyShepherd said:


> *NEVER correct a dog for coming back to you... regardless what they did previous*. If they run off, and like 20min later decide to come back.. don't correct. That'll only make the dog afraid of coming back to you, thinking every time he'll be corrected and you'll be angry at him. Good boy for coming back..... start back on the basics again. For my dogs, I make it a game. It's always a fun time when they come back to me. With Duke.. when he'd come back, I'd have the tug ready for him to grab, and we'd have a little tugging match. Later on when he got the idea... we cleaned it up and introduced the front and center, and then back to basic position (sit at the left side of handler). In the beginning just keep it up beat and fun to do. Much more fun than running off!!


I never do, he gets a treat any time he comes near me, whether I called him or not. If I didn’t call him I sometimes just praise him a lot but he always gets something. And lots of treats if he actually came when I called. I also try to make it fun to come back to me, I always have loads of toys with me.
He’s def getting better, just not good enough to be safe.
I will try front and center and back to basic, so far no luck with the back to basic as you call it)))))





TrickyShepherd said:


> 6. That's a loaded and vague question. There's different types of corrections, and different times to use them.... Though, if I'm just using the umbrella word of "correction".... a dog should be corrected when they get/do something wrong. You correct, have them do it the right way so they understand, and reward... rinse and repeat. If you don't always catch it, or let them get away with it.... that loses your consistency, and the dog will never really learn.


Physical corrections. When is it time to assume he’s not listening on purpose





TrickyShepherd said:


> 7. Leash training 101. If a dog pulls, start back with the basics. Foundations are everything. With mine, if they pull... they don't get to go where they want. I'll either turn them around completely in a fast pace and walk the other way every single time.... OR I'll simply stop and they have to sit, focus on me.... and we continue our walk when they relax. With the young dogs.. I tried making the walks more interactive too and not mind numbing (or they'd just find bad things to focus on), I would add commands randomly. I'd stop and make them sit and focus on me, or add in a simple sit, down, stand.... I'd add in "fuss"/heel for a few steps, or "here" and make them front and center... etc. That worked well with mine, and with those few things... mine stopped pulling.





TrickyShepherd said:


> Everything with a pup takes patience. It won't happen overnight... but if you're consistent, and really really keep up with working with him... he'll get it. Just remember to not rush, let the pup learn and grow at a pace that's good or him. If the foundation is bad, it'll all crumble eventually. This part of training is the most important no matter what you're training or for what purpose.... sporting, family dog, working dog... etc. So just make sure you're not skipping ahead too fast or asking for too much too soon.
> *Also, these are just suggestions for what worked with my dogs*.... each dog is different, each handler is different.. etc. It may help, it may not. I suggest trying them out, and what others say if it sounds reasonable... and see what works best for you two. If it doesn't, try something else. Dog training is not black and white, it's not 1 answer. No one will ever be 100% correct, and not everyone has to be wrong. With that said... Ellis is great. Leerburg posts a LOT of great little clips of him on youtube, and they are certainly worth watching for some suggestions.


I understand, that’s all I’m looking for, ideas, I take whatever I can use and sometimes get ideas of my own from reading. I love Michael Ellis and I like Ed Frawley for his training philosophy and how straight up he is, I can always appreciate that.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I wouldn't suggest biking or jogging with the dog until he's matured and his growth plates are closed.


True but she could jog on the grass. Same as retrieving really but the dog will travel slower while jogging. You really do have to make sure not to injure the dog through over exertion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe you can find some other places to go, like a fair-grounds, or a school play ground -- late, or tennis courts. But if there is ANY chance that other people are around, your dog needs to be leashed at this point. Anything less is opening you up to serious litigation, and your dog up to the death penalty. Sorry, but even an accidental bite, scratch, injury from falling can cause our dogs serious issues. 

And nobody deserves to be charged by a loose, barking, GSD. That gives us all a bad name. So cut that out. 

Lots of good advice by MadLab. 

When my dogs do not do a command, I will help them get into the position I want, and then praise. Sometimes I will say, EH! Sometimes, I just redo the exercise, without any positive or negative communication, and witholding the positive does make them respond. 

When they know a command without distractions, is when they do it properly almost every time. Then we increase distractions, change where we train, and add some twists. 

The dog needs to be competant with a command on leash with distractions before going off leash and expecting him to do the same.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Practice about turns. The dog will start to look to you as it is trying to anticipate you turning. I use leash pops. I place the collar on tightly, high on the dogs neck under the chin so I control the head rather than battle the dogs powerful shoulder and drive.


 lol, that's what Ed Frawley was referring to when he said Yank and Crank.

my first trainer taught me to do this to get the dog to loose leash walk. it works, don't get me wrong. i got him to be pretty decent and then i started reading.

Ed Frawley uses this exact method when explaining how unfair old school training is for dogs. i can find the link though it will be hard))))) i read so much stuff by now i don't remember what was where


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer said:


> Maybe you can find some other places to go, like a fair-grounds, or a school play ground -- late, or tennis courts. But if there is ANY chance that other people are around, your dog needs to be leashed at this point. Anything less is opening you up to serious litigation, and your dog up to the death penalty. Sorry, but even an accidental bite, scratch, injury from falling can cause our dogs serious issues.
> 
> *And nobody deserves to be charged by a loose, barking, GSD. That gives us all a bad name. So cut that out.*
> 
> ...


i know, that's why i'm here asking for advice. if i didn't care i'd let him do it just as other people do.

i always apoplogize when he does it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Sorry I know you love your dog but it is more not sfae to allow such a dog free to act as it likes. Everybody uses long lines. I've never heard of an accident.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah, i already decided that from now on he will be on a long leash for at least few weeks and i will take it from there. if i have to get an ecollar then i will do it.

i bought a bike just for him and it can't work now, i cant get it to the park by myself while walking him and i can't ride it when he's on leash, he will kill me once he sees a dog walk down the street. and no, i can't jog, i smoke way too much for jogging.

as far as long leashes and accidents, i'm surprised no one saw what i see. not only it's not safe for him if he's chasing a flirt pole or a ball but it's not safe for me either, my legs got caught up in it a few times as well. what i'm saying is that it's not safe doing any kind of playing with it, they don't always run in straight line. mine almost never does.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

not to take it out of context, here's what leerburg said about using this method to teach dogs to heel




> If you are around dog trainers long enough you will hear the term "FORCE TRAINING - or AVOIDANCE TRAINING ". Force training is basically old school training. I know because I did it for 30 years. Tt works, but unfortunately it hurts our relationship with a dog.
> 
> 
> To understand what force training is, you should first know how to motivate a dog. There are a limited number of ways to motivate a dog to do what you want it to do:
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lalachka said:


> i know, that's why i'm here asking for advice. if i didn't care i'd let him do it just as other people do.
> 
> *i always apoplogize* when he does it.


Not good enough. I am sorry, but if I said that my 80 pound GSD runs up and nips people in the butt, but I always apologize, is that ok??? 

If your dog charges, barking up to someone, one time, than, yes apologize, put the dog back on leash, and train, train, train, train, train ON LEAD. He doesn't get off lead again until you feel relatively sure that he will not do that. You have had him around people, kids, bicycles, delivery men, strollers, and he is not reacting AT ALL. Then you try again, if a situation that has very little distractions. 

Set your dog up to succeed and then praise him for it. Get him perfect on leash, and then set him up to succeed off lead, so you can praise him for that.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

TrickyShepherd said:


> But see... this is inconsistency. Instead... beat the system and don't allow that to get so far. Put the long line on right away, and be consistent with your training. Get everything solid before going further. My dogs are not allowed off leash either. If I'm in a safe environment, I'll attach a long line. Duke is the only one I'll let off leash in a secured area, and even then I'm super cautious and he has the e-collar on. Otherwise, I use 4-6' leashes at all times.


i know)))) i'm definitely inconsistent, lots of times he catches me off guard with the things he does and i do nothing or do something i shouldnt've done.

i saw your videos with both your dogs running, that's why i assumed you let them both off leash and i remember you say they have aggression problems. so i was looking for ideas.

but as i said, he will be on a long line for a while and no flirt pole and stuff.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer said:


> Not good enough. I am sorry, but if I said that my 80 pound GSD runs up and nips people in the butt, but I always apologize, is that ok???
> 
> If your dog charges, barking up to someone, one time, than, yes apologize, put the dog back on leash, and train, train, train, train, train ON LEAD. He doesn't get off lead again until you feel relatively sure that he will not do that. You have had him around people, kids, bicycles, delivery men, strollers, and he is not reacting AT ALL. Then you try again, if a situation that has very little distractions.
> 
> Set your dog up to succeed and then praise him for it. Get him perfect on leash, and then set him up to succeed off lead, so you can praise him for that.


though a dog should be doing neither i do see a difference between running up and barking and running up and nipping.

whatever, i'm not arguing about it, i'm here asking for advice and obviously not willing to let it go on.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Basically if the dog is respectful of you and your discipline then when you shout 'NO' or 'OFF' and recall it then it should do it.
> 
> It takes training. It takes time for any dog to learn as it is only acting on it's instincts.
> 
> ...


i hope so, i'm obviously here only pointing out his problems but he has lots of things he does well and we have a good relationship, he's always submissive to me though to a point, like he's not rolling on his back or peeing (which i wouldn't want).

there were many times that i called him off and he actually came but there were 5 or 6 where he didn't and those are the times i'm worried about.

i know it takes work, i'm just so inexperienced that i get ahead of myself and also sometimes freeze and blank out. i need LOTS of work on myself before i work on the dog, so that's what i'm trying to do.


if he doesn't get any better on long lead within a few weeks then i will get the ecollar.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really don't want to argue either, but an uncontrolled German Shepherd Dog is really dangerous. Just because he hasn't nipped yet, doesn't mean someone won't turn and run, and what will he do then? Someone might pull out mace and spray your dog in the face. This may curtail this behavior, but it will probably make him that much quicker to react strongly to strangers that do come close to him. Someone may fall, and then call animal control on you, and deem your dog dangerous.

So, while it is not the same as nipping in the butt, it is still very dangerous.

I am glad that you are going to keep your dog on line. 

Long lines are a pain in the bum, but they are temporary, and they will keep your boy safer than running naked. It's a scary world out there for a young dog without an umbilical cord.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

TrickyShepherd said:


> I *think* the dog is super young (if not, ignore this)... I wouldn't suggest biking or jogging with the dog until he's matured and his growth plates are closed. You can actually cause a lot of strain to his bones (especially hips and elbows, which this breed is already notorious for). For right now, the pup should be running and jumping on his own terms. If he doesn't want to, don't force it.
> 
> Some great ways to work out energy in a pup is to play fetch, take them swimming, work on some fun obedience work (high intensity, keep it fun, and at a faster pace like I mentioned earlier), or hide some treats/toys around your house... or start tracking out in the park you go to.... play tug.... get a flirt pole.... etc. There's many other ways to do tire them out.


he's a little over 8 months. there's no swimming anywhere close by, not even within an hour for dogs. i can't use the flirt pole until i stop using the long line (try it, you will see what i mean. unless i'm playing with a flirt pole different than you guys do). it's just not that easy in NYC))))) i love the city but having large dogs here is a little challenging


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer said:


> I really don't want to argue either, but an uncontrolled German Shepherd Dog is really dangerous. Just because he hasn't nipped yet, doesn't mean someone won't turn and run, and what will he do then? Someone might pull out mace and spray your dog in the face. This may curtail this behavior, but it will probably make him that much quicker to react strongly to strangers that do come close to him. Someone may fall, and then call animal control on you, and deem your dog dangerous.
> 
> So, while it is not the same as nipping in the butt, it is still very dangerous.
> 
> ...


i know of everything that can happen, but my number one reason is that i think it's rude to do this to people. even if i knew he'd never bite i'd still be looking for ways to deal with it, he should NEVER be doing this to anyone.

so i think the fact that i'm here asking for advice speaks for itself, i'm trying to stop the behavior. and i think there was no need to tell me to cut it out and that it makes them all look bad.

you'd be surprised how many people not only let their dogs do that but also have the balls to tell the people what to do when it happens, like scream stuff like "stay still!! don't be scared!! don't run i'm telling you!!!"


so yeah, if this was me i'd take the person apologizing and then looking for suggestions on stopping it


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

but i now have more questions. there were times when i had him on a long lead and child walked by and he started going crazy!!!! what do i do? do i redirect? correct?

i popped his prong collar a few times pretty hard. not sure if i was right or not. IMO popping them doesn't stop it the next time. if he's fear aggressive, me popping him hard enough will make him shut up THAT time but it's not doing anything for his fears so next time he will act out again, no?

at least that's what's been happening in my experience


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

*



Now, the art of dog training is to know what kind of correction to apply, what level correction to give (within a rang of very slight to very hard), and how or whether to offer a reward after the dog complies. This knowledge comes with a handler's training in the art and with experience.

Click to expand...

*and here's what i'm asking when i say WHEN TO CORRECT? also, how hard to correct?
i have new found respect for good dog trainers.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> *As he is walking down the street, he reverses direction and gives a strong leash correction as he says "HEEL." He does this again and again and again until eventually the dog is closely watching the trainer so it can turn quickly and avoid the correction.*
> *That's forced training. *


A dog dragging you down the street is also force training then, but you are the student not the teacher.

My dog lunging at another dog is him telling me forcefully to let him go and be free to do as he likes.

Should I counter balance my dogs force? or should i release him? Should I teach him if he uses force, I will use force? Should I use slight pops of force to communicate an idea to a dog. 

The leash is the bridge between you and the dog or it is a barrier. If you are too heavy the dog is trying to get away from you. If you are too light it is dragging you. To get the balance takes patience, repetition and strategy. If you do a pop re-enforce with food. Everybodys a winner.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> A dog dragging you down the street is also force training then, but you are the student not the teacher.
> 
> My dog lunging at another dog is him telling me forcefully to let him go and be free to do as he likes.
> 
> ...


i don't know))))) i'm a newbie. all i can do is listen to people that are successful in dog training and i'd say Ed Frawley is successful. i listen to Michael Ellis because i've seen his dogs (on video) and they're amazing.

but i really don't know one way or the other.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

lalachka said:


> i know)))) i'm definitely inconsistent, lots of times he catches me off guard with the things he does and i do nothing or do something i shouldnt've done.
> 
> i saw your videos with both your dogs running, that's why i assumed you let them both off leash and i remember you say they have aggression problems. so i was looking for ideas.
> 
> but as i said, he will be on a long line for a while and no flirt pole and stuff.


Yes, they were both older (1yrs and 2yrs), and it was an empty dog park, closed for the day. I spoke to the manager there (it's in our HOA) and asked if he wouldn't mind if I let them run out a bit and greet each other since I had just brought Duke home and needed to start them in a neutral area before allowing both free in our home. I was given permission, both of them stayed on leash until I knew they were ok (they also did go on many walks together before this, and short greetings on leash... so I felt it was safe). I eventually did let them off leash, it was a small fenced area (pretty much the size of a decent backyard). For that case, yes, my dogs are fine off leash.... no training was intended... it was to get to know each other. Would I have put a younger pup in there off leash that I was trying to train? Nope. Different situation all the way around.

Also the aggression I dealt with was different. Zira and Duke are dog aggressive (at that time, it was only Duke... Zira was still fine with others... it wasn't until maturity hit that it started mildly, mostly other females.), the park was closed and the double gates were locked. I wasn't concerned, but of course I was always standing around them with both leashes and collars ready to go if needed. I'm very cautious where and when I allow any off leash activity. Personally, if my dogs were rushing people.... I wouldn't allow them the room to do as they please. They need to be under your immediate control the entire time. With a dog that doesn't have a solid foundation, this is really really testing your luck. 



lalachka said:


> he's a little over 8 months. there's no swimming anywhere close by, not even within an hour for dogs. i can't use the flirt pole until i stop using the long line (try it, you will see what i mean. unless i'm playing with a flirt pole different than you guys do). it's just not that easy in NYC))))) i love the city but having large dogs here is a little challenging


I do all the time, Storm is never off leash outside my home. I also understand the space issue. I may not live in a large city, but I do live in a crowded suburb and my backyard is very very minimal... one side of my "fence" in my neighbor's house. Land isn't easy to find here... and if you do find it, you'll probably have the cops giving you a visit shortly after (or in some areas, you may hear a shotgun being loaded). People are not kind here about letting others use their land.

Long lines are not the end of all fun. You can most certainly work around them. Hook them to a flat collar or a harness, and the dog will be fine. I work OB and Protection, and tracking all with a long line trailing behind Storm. I play with her out front with a long line attached. On hikes, my older two are on long lines (depending on the traffic in the area)... etc. Trust me, it's possible.

*As a side note.... Storm had a 6ft leash with no handle on for her first 6 months in my home when she was out. Especially when she was with my other dogs. This allowed me act immediately when I had to, and correct when she was doing wrong. I wasn't about to go running after a puppy for 40min just trying to catch her. Now, she listens very well in the house and I couldn't even tell you the last time I had to fight to get her to come to me or come inside..... she learned early on, that she had no choice. I called, she came. I said no, she stopped. This is because I was consistent, and my timing was right. The same goes for your dog out in that field with a long line... it'll really really make it much easier to work with him...

I don't know about your area, but if a large GSD rushes a person here (especially at night in a field)..... that's either a huge lawsuit with many acts of aggression added to the dogs file, or the dogs getting shot. Honestly, it's just not safe to have them off leash. 

I'm not trying to argue, be rude, or to sound pushy.... but, I do want to get across the importance of keeping the dog leashed. Especially a puppy.. (8 months is still a baby).


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

You may have answered this already.. I'm sorry if it's being repeated....

Have you contacted a professional trainer to help with his obedience? I know we talked about a behaviorist to work on the reactivity if it's as bad as you say... but, what about a trainer to get you more comfortable with working with him?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

TrickyShepherd said:


> You may have answered this already.. I'm sorry if it's being repeated....
> 
> Have you contacted a professional trainer to help with his obedience? I know we talked about a behaviorist to work on the reactivity if it's as bad as you say... but, what about a trainer to get you more comfortable with working with him?


i did, i had 2 of them so far. one was old school, the one i mentioned here a few times. he's the one that taught me how to make him heel and stuff and gave me some other good advice. BUT he's strictly force, no treats.

so he came out a few times and then once his problems started to escalate i found another one and he turned out to be very similar. so i gave up on trainers for a little bit, bought Michael Ellis dvds and started working on marker training.


i'm actually seeing improvement, both in aggression and in obedience. just not enough to feel safe having him off leash



ETA it's not THAT bad. as a matter of fact, everything i'm describing here was witnessed by people at the park and they all tried convincing me that none of this is a problem. i am not buying into it, in my eyes it IS a problem.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> but i now have more questions. there were times when i had him on a long lead and child walked by and he started going crazy!!!! what do i do? do i redirect? correct?


You act before the dog does. You have a height advantage to see what's coming. Be 2 steps ahead of your dog if it has any reactivity. Generally people use a 20 foot leash maximum. If you see somebody, you recall your dog or run to it will reeling in the line or shout sit and go and reward the dog or go and turn it away from the distraction and walk the other way. Generally if the dog is fearful or aggressive it won't take the treat so don't bother.



> i popped his prong collar a few times pretty hard. not sure if i was right or not. IMO popping them doesn't stop it the next time. if he's fear aggressive, me popping him hard enough will make him shut up THAT time but it's not doing anything for his fears so next time he will act out again, no?at least that's what's been happening in my experience


I don't really use the prong as I feel it may injure the dog especially on a long line. I just feel the dogs throat is a sensitive area. That's why I use a regular collar set high on neck tightly. When I pop I'm just knocking the dogs head off balance so it can't ignore the pop. If the collar is lower the dog will just counter act with all it's power and may choke itself.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> You act before the dog does. You have a height advantage to see what's coming. Be 2 steps ahead of your dog if it has any reactivity. Generally people use a 20 foot leash maximum. If you see somebody, you recall your dog or run to it will reeling in the line or shout sit and go and reward the dog or go and turn it away from the distraction and walk the other way. Generally if the dog is fearful or aggressive it won't take the treat so don't bother.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really use the prong as I feel it may injure the dog especially on a long line. I just feel the dogs throat is a sensitive area. That's why I use a regular collar set high on neck tightly. When I pop I'm just knocking the dogs head off balance so it can't ignore the pop. If the collar is lower the dog will just counter act with all it's power and may choke itself.


please bear with me here, this is really important for me. when the child walked by he was right next to me. i saw the child coming, knew what was about to happen and just kept him near me and made sure he couldn't get to the child (this was in the day time at the same park).

so are you saying to always avoid? that's what i'm doing if i walk down the street. do it in the park? so how can i teach him to stop bugging out?

also, good sign, my dog will almost always take treats so to me that says that he's not too deep in his behaviors, meaning, that he can snap out of them pretty quick. within a few seconds he's taking a treat.

as far as a collar, no matter how high up i put it - it always slides down. maybe his neck structure? i don't know. but i will try.


my main thing is how to get him to STOP buggin out on things like that?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

you need to see the person/dog approaching and get your dog focused on you before HE notices. Have him sit, down, some command he knows. Do a "watch me" command if you've been practicing focus. If he looks at the distraction, say "eh" or whatever you use and repeat the command. Start heeling in another direction if you are walking. Keep your tone and attitude happy and upbeat, get his attention engaged on what YOU are doing.

As for the heeling, there is a HUGE difference between old school "crank and yank" and what MadLab is talking about. One is dragging the dog behind you while the other is more of a tap on the shoulder "Hey, I'm going this way now" One of the biggest differences is YOU. You can give a hard yank, dragging the dog's body around into the new direction. "crank and yank"
OR simply change direction, giving a pop on the collar. The tension on the leash lasts mere seconds. ( I was told to practice with a pillow - put the training collar around a pillow and give a quick POP of the leash. It gives you an idea of the force/timing needed to make the pillow move and immediately relax the tension. ) In a happy voice say "OOPS! Going this way now!" and "GOOD BOY!!!" as soon as he starts to turn in the new direction. Again, you don't MAKE him turn.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Thank you sooo much, Dainerra and of course MadLab and TrickyShepherd. I can't wait till we go out so I can try all this.

ETA lol and selzer


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## MiaMoo (Apr 6, 2013)

lalachka said:


> also, good sign, my dog will almost always take treats so to me that says that he's not too deep in his behaviors, meaning, that he can snap out of them pretty quick. within a few seconds he's taking a treat.


Wait, are you giving him treats as a way to calm him down? That seems a lot like rewarding a negative behavior.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MiaMoo said:


> Wait, are you giving him treats as a way to calm him down? That seems a lot like rewarding a negative behavior.


No, I try redirecting. I say 'pop pop', if he looks at me then says 'yes' and then treat. If he doesn't then I keep saying it every few seconds until he does and then 'yes' and treat. 

I don't have a better solution for now


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

All that teaches its that he can ignore you as long as he wanted and still get a reward.
Instead, remove him entirely from the situation - since you need to start redirecting before he even sees the child or whatever you will have plenty of time to weigh options. You can't expect him to be 100% right off so you need to learn what distance he is comfortable at and back up before the distraction reaches you. THEN have him sit and focus on you, rewarding for the proper behavior. Once he is reliable at that distance, you can be closer.
The best easy to do this might be to seek out children playing. Approach them until you find the point that he is focused on them vs you. Back up 10-20 feet and work on some obedience. Once he is reliable at that distance you can go a little closer and start all over again. For people approaching, i would either turn and go the other way for now our at least move well off the path and put him in a sit before they get closer to you

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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I understand the idea, thank you, I will try some of this tonight (not with children obviously))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

But I still have a question. How does this teach him to ignore dogs and people in the future?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1 >>> keep the dog leashed when training. give the command and immediately make the dog do it.

2 >>> when the dog performs the act you'll know he knows the command besides the fact you're 
training her so you'll know if your dog knows a command. 

3 >>> keep your dog leashed untill he's trained. train and socialize.
set up situations with people and other animals to train and socialize.




lalachka said:


> 1. I give a command and he doesn't do it (assuming he knows what I'm asking)
> 
> 2. How to know when the dog knows a command
> 
> ...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> 1 >>> keep the dog leashed when training. give the command and immediately make the dog do it.
> 
> 2 >>> when the dog performs the act you'll know he knows the command besides the fact you're
> training her so you'll know if your dog knows a command.
> ...


Thank you!!

2. The reason I'm asking is because trainers say you might think your dog knows the command but he doesn't. For example, I might think he knows the SIT command but in reality he knows he has to sit before going out the door or sit when I stop walking. 
So at what point can I be sure that he def knows it and just doesn't want to comply?

I'm trying to see when to physically correct him? Also, at what level?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lalachka said:


> But I still have a question. How does this teach him to ignore dogs and people in the future?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Doggiedad, can you answer this please?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

lalachka said:


> But I still have a question. How does this teach him to ignore dogs and people in the future?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


it builds up his ability to ignore them. You don't start off your dog training standing on a busy street corner trying to get your dog to sit, you start at home in your living room teaching him the basics. It is the same thing here.
Instead of punishing bad behavior, you teach him what you want instead. 
He learns to sit when there is something exciting going on a good distance away and as you move closer learns to keep his attention on you for a command instead of going crazy barking and bouncing around. 

As for DoggieDad's comments (I kind of skimmed) but it IS possible he doesn't know the command. Dogs don't always generalize very well. It can take a bit of training and exposure to learn that "sit" ALWAYS means "butt on the ground" Like a little kid, it can be easy to get them to do what you want when it's just the 2 of you in a familiar place. But when you start adding in distractions, you lose that attention. That is why you add in distractions slowly - you start inside. Then go to the back yard or other quiet place. Then you add in a bit more noise/activity. ETC

That is why the method I mentioned tends to work well. You slowly build up to having your dog in the hustle so that he gets used to it - it loses it's fascination and just becomes part of the background.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Thank you!!! Now I understand. I started doing it yesterday and he was on leash the entire time. It's far from perfect yet, I have a ton of new questions. 

If you guys don't mind i'd post them here. I don't want to abuse the forum


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You should keep asking questions. That is the beauty of forums. Nobody can accurately picture your specific situation and dogs temperament but everyone has an opinion and a perspective and potentially some experience and it all helps IMO.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

MadLab said:


> You should keep asking questions. That is the beauty of forums. Nobody can accurately picture your specific situation and dogs temperament but everyone has an opinion and a perspective and potentially some experience and it all helps IMO.


Absolutely.

If you have questions.. ask. It doesn't help to have them and never get any answers or guidance. Picking the minds of many members here can be super beneficial in learning how to properly work with your dog (and in many ways, this breed in general).

IMO, the worst kind of questions are the ones that are not asked.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

OK then here's the most pressing one for the moment. So I keep him on leash and because of what MadLab said about long leashes and prong collars I use the nylon collar. So I find him pulling so hard to go sniff or whatever that I'm afraid of 2 things

1. Him getting used to pulling and being desensitized to it
2. I don't like the behavior

I'm having a problem with loose leash walking period. I saw a method of 'giving to leash pressure' and I must be doing it wrong. Like when you pull straight forward and once he gives in you mark and treat. Straight forward works perfect, he follows right away but then starts pulling on the side and it's hard to catch a moment that he gives in because he doesn't truly give in. Like he will move a millimeter but still pulls, then another millimeter, then sits and it's loose but then I'm rewarding him for sitting. 

I think this method is also called silky leash on YouTube. 

Since he's now always on leash pulling must be dealt with as an emergency, before it was just walking a few blocks so I could afford waiting a few months. Now I find myself pulling him every few seconds. Focus doesn't work all the time. 
Getting desperate. 


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

It is so frustrating and the frustration makes it worse lol

Funny me and friends have found the bike does cure the pulling a bit. I know you mentioned that you would be pulled off the bike if your dog saw a cat. I have been too once or twice. I think it is an age thing and an instinctual thing sometimes too. But still I think cycling does get a dog used to being by your side and watching the world go by. The running can trigger prey drive too and this leads to cat chases. Good to put the brakes on the right hand side and the dog on the left anyways. I then hold the dogs leash with my left hand.

I don't have any big way to cure the dog pulling. I did use the pop and turn method but it is just a technique. Again it is down to energy. When I walk my dogs or friends dogs they walk by my side, but other people get pulled by the same dogs. When I walk with my girl friend, if my dog pulls her I simply say nothing and hold the leash and he stops. He can feel my presence on the leash with out turning around. 

It comes down to tension. If the leash is tense the dog is gonna pull. That's why the flick works in my opinion. It is not a major force or conflict but simply a light pulse of energy. Also touching the tail is helpful. You need to learn to watch the tail. Generally when the dog is pulling you it is waving it's tail around and wafting it's smell and thinking it is great. A touch of the tail tells it you know what it is doing. It will put down it's tail briefly and slow down. Depends on the dog I suppose. 

It is so annoying and one of the biggest frustrations to owning a dog. I was like, this is meant to be relaxing, it has to be easier than this, walking the dog and so I developed a way to do it. 

When you get frustrated the dog is naturally gonna want to get away from you. It is simple really, Relax and it will get better. It starts when you pick up the lead in your house. If the dog is getting excited and pulling you out the door then you are in for it. But if you instill calmness before you leave your place the dog will act better.

It is also related to pack structure and how a dog greets you and how it acts and you act in the meeting ritual. It is all related.

That's my philosophical take on it any ways.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> It is so frustrating and the frustration makes it worse lol
> 
> Funny me and friends have found the bike does cure the pulling a bit. I know you mentioned that you would be pulled off the bike if your dog saw a cat. I have been too once or twice. I think it is an age thing and an instinctual thing sometimes too. But still I think cycling does get a dog used to being by your side and watching the world go by. The running can trigger prey drive too and this leads to cat chases. Good to put the brakes on the right hand side and the dog on the left anyways. I then hold the dogs leash with my left hand.
> 
> ...


i've been making him wait at every door, not pull me down the stairs. all is well. even walking down the street he's good most of the time. however, sometimes he must smell something and he will pull like crazy.

i know about the energy, it's so hard to control how you feel though)))) i will try the tail thing, though i know it's their indicator i sometimes forget to watch it.

i also am about to read up on body language so i can understand him better.

too bad there are no quick fixes, i will keep trying.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Another funny method which does work is the pretend your old or can't walk. Hold the leash with both hands and draw your hands into your solar plexus. Start to take smaller steps. Immediately the dog will slow down out of respect for you. 

I used this technique when I met a cat and I was on really icy ground. I had to do something or the dog would pull me to the ground or I'd let go. I have messed around with it on different dogs and find it does always get them to slow down. 

Try it any ways when you get frustrated. Slowing down does always help. As does speeding up sometimes and moving your feet at double speed. Note a dog always moves it feet twice as fast as a human. So you do the same almost like jogging one the spot and then slow him down. 

Don't let the dog control the speed at which you go. Sometimes slow it down and then speed it up. If the dog is skittish round traffic or noises, you can randomly stamp your feet beside him and get him used to unusual noises. Tap a bin or lap post as you are passing it. The dog will then not react so much. 

I find car-parks and universities as well as parks, good for walking and getting the dog used to different areas.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

TrickyShepherd said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> If you have questions.. ask. It doesn't help to have them and never get any answers or guidance. Picking the minds of many members here can be super beneficial in learning how to properly work with your dog (and in many ways, this breed in general).
> 
> IMO, the worst kind of questions are the ones that are not asked.


Lalachka,

Please understand that although you are the one asking the questions and getting tons of good information and feedback, there are dozens and dozens of us, sitting in the background, learning thru you. Keep going, your doing great:hug:

Thank you!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Traveler's Mom said:


> Lalachka,
> 
> Please understand that although you are the one asking the questions and getting tons of good information and feedback, there are dozens and dozens of us, sitting in the background, learning thru you. Keep going, your doing great:hug:
> 
> Thank you!


i'm so glad to hear))))

when i'm out there i feel lilke a total idiot. it's like he always does something i wasn't prepared for.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Another funny method which does work is the pretend your old or can't walk. Hold the leash with both hands and draw your hands into your solar plexus. Start to take smaller steps. Immediately the dog will slow down out of respect for you.
> 
> I used this technique when I met a cat and I was on really icy ground. I had to do something or the dog would pull me to the ground or I'd let go. I have messed around with it on different dogs and find it does always get them to slow down.
> 
> ...


i will try all all this tonight))))) and i'm sure he will surprise me with some more stuff that i will post tomorrow.

this is hard stuff, training a dog


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Funnily it is just basic discipline and respect rather than training. 

Some day the dog just clicks into it. The age your dog is at now is the time he just wants to go tearing up the place. He is learning about the world and his nose is his guide. 

Good to try some tracking with him. You can research the different methods. One simple way is. Tie up the dog to something. Make a scent pad, say a 3 foot circle loaded with food/kibble. And then lay a track and place a piece of food or kibble in each step. Go back and let the into the scent pad. He will find all the food and notice your scent. Then lead him to the track and let him search along not too fast so he finds it all. Leave a ball or larger pile of food at the end. Aim for the dog to search each foot step to find each piece of food and over time fade out the food to every second step etc and make the track longer and include turns etc.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Funnily it is just basic discipline and respect rather than training.
> 
> Some day the dog just clicks into it. The age your dog is at now is the time he just wants to go tearing up the place. He is learning about the world and his nose is his guide.
> 
> Good to try some tracking with him. You can research the different methods. One simple way is. Tie up the dog to something. Make a scent pad, say a 3 foot circle loaded with food/kibble. And then lay a track and place a piece of food or kibble in each step. Go back and let the into the scent pad. He will find all the food and notice your scent. Then lead him to the track and let him search along not too fast so he finds it all. Leave a ball or larger pile of food at the end. Aim for the dog to search each foot step to find each piece of food and over time fade out the food to every second step etc and make the track longer and include turns etc.


i don't know how i missed this, i will def try this tonight!!! really, thank you for all the suggestions, they're not going to waste.

ETA do you have any problems with your dogs? how long have you had dogs? did you ever have problems with them? i saw you say that it's about energy. i agree, they do sense power, i don't project it. so you never had problems because of your personality?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can anyone in Lalachka's area post a trainer who has classes that they have worked with and is good? 

Another way to find trainers is to look trainers up through APDTs. I think the trainers the organization supports, have many criteria. 

A good set of training classes will:
1. help you see progress week from week.
2. give you another set of eyes on how you and your dog interact.
3. give you incentive to work every day -- I need this. 
4. give you a competant individual to call with behavior issues when they come up, who should have some suggestions. 
4. give you other people and pups to work your dog around, many of whom are struggling with the same type of things. 

Good luck.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer said:


> Can anyone in Lalachka's area post a trainer who has classes that they have worked with and is good?
> 
> Another way to find trainers is to look trainers up through APDTs. I think the trainers the organization supports, have many criteria.
> 
> ...


 
this all sounds amazing. i guess i'm thinking of petco when i think of group classes. also, i'm afraid they won't take him at this point, he's a little loud sometimes, though i will def try.

i'm in queens, NYC, what's apdt?


ETA i got discouraged with trainers because the 2 i found were old school, so i decided to look for a behaviorist instead (that's what i need, i think, not a trainer, i need behavior modification) and they were all the ones where i ship my dog away. those i would not do.
i might be looking wrong but i didn't find anything good on my own.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> ETA do you have any problems with your dogs? how long have you had dogs? did you ever have problems with them? i saw you say that it's about energy. i agree, they do sense power, i don't project it. so you never had problems because of your personality?


I was a no leash kinda guy for years. Had dogs for last 15 years in my house but they were friends and strays. One of the dogs got a broken leg so I decided to start using a leash.

Then I kind of shared some dogs with some friends and felt I wanted to have more influence but couldn't so I got my own dog.

Then i wanted a bully breed so got a bullmastiffX female who was fearful and pretty human aggressive and so i started researching and trying to do what you are doing now. She liked to chase people and bark and hold them. It was really hard but now she is 3 and I feel i accomplished something. She was a hard nut for sure. 

Luckily my other first dog is good for training so since I've started trying to train he has benefited a lot.

I used to know not much but dogs liked me and now I know a little. I was lucky as well to go to some classes with some decent Schutzhund trainers just doing basic obedience. They gave me a good base in pack structure and obedience. That helped as did reading a few books and watching a load of Dog whisperer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

APDT -- American Pet Dog Trainers. It is an association of accredited trainers. 

You really need to interview the trainer before signing up, to find out what kind of training they do. 

How old is this dog. Your dog may need a behaviorist, but whether that is the case or not, you need a trainer. And sending your pup away for training works for some people, but we generally do not encourage anyone to do so. It teaches you nothing, and it does not promote the bond that is needed between pup and owner. The bond is built of trust and relationship, and training is kind of a catalyst. 

You are working on techniques for basic training, many of which you would work on in a basic class. This will be more effective under the eye of a trainer who knows what they are doing. For young dogs, some of the behaviors will start to recede when they realize their owner is trustworthy and they understand what is asked of them. 

Also, when the dog is in training, you get to understand their thresholds. So that when you see a child approaching with a bicycle and streamers, you do not just stand there and wait for the puppy to discover the scary thing coming and wait for him to do what he thinks he needs to do. Instead, you tell the dog what YOU want him to do. These are things you have learned in class and have worked on in practice outside of class and are very rewarding to the dog. WATCH, SIT, DOWN, Good boy, Heel. 

A dog is processing: small person, fast moving, lots of color, and suddenly FIDO, WATCH oh! yeah, if I look at HIM, cheese, he has cheese, yum, cheese, where was that thi FIDO, SIT, wow I know what that means, yep, butt down, MORE CHEESE! Yum! Yeah, I can go DOWN, too. What was it I was worried about, oh, it's gone, got anymore of the cheese, huh? 

A lot of the stuff dogs need behaviorists for, will with training, and maturation, and positive experiences at a distance will recede to the point where the dogs are easily managed. 

Training is the key. When you train, you will learn to show your dog that you are the leader. No alpha crap. It is simple, it is not punishing. It is setting the dog up for success and rewards, and praise and rewarding the dog. And then when the dog is sufficient, rewarding for the quickest compliance or the best position, and pretty soon, you are rewarding with just praise and not having to have a pocket full of slimy hotdogs and cheese on you at all times. Instead you will have your voice, and you can also reward your dog by training him various tricks, or jumps or exercises. But for now FOOD is your friend.

And a good set of training classes is a START.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

OK))))) I'm feeling intimidated sometimes, like I'm just doing everything wrong while everyone here has all these dogs with no problems)))))
Just had to get back to earth 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Selzer, he's a little over 8 months

Yes, that's my mistake. I didn't find out before hand abt the training style. After the 2nd one I was ready to ask the right questions and ran into all these send away trainers and decided to go with Michael Ellis videos and do it on my own. I'm def seeing improvement, maybe I'm just being impatient and wanting it all at once. 

I was always looking into individual training, maybe that's another mistake. For some reason I thought I wouldn't get the attention I need in the group one. 

I so badly want to do the right thing that I might be getting ahead of myself. 

But, he should never be running up to people and barking, that I know for sure. That's what makes me think I need a behaviorist and it's so hard to find a good one. 

I'd love it if someone can see everything he does on the street and read it for me. That's why I've always been looking at individual training. I might be wrong on this though. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I'm having a problem with loose leash walking period. I saw a method of 'giving to leash pressure' and I must be doing it wrong. Like when you pull straight forward and once he gives in you mark and treat. Straight forward works perfect, he follows right away but then starts pulling on the side and it's hard to catch a moment that he gives in because he doesn't truly give in. Like he will move a millimeter but still pulls, then another millimeter, then sits and it's loose but then I'm rewarding him for sitting.
> 
> I think this method is also called silky leash on YouTube.


The Silky Leash technique is fantastic. But the way it's taught is that you start working on yielding to the slightest bit of leash pressure indoors, in a low distraction environment, not out on a walk. Grisha Stewart, who talks about Silky Leash on her Ahimsa website, suggests starting in a small confined space with nothing going on......such as a bathroom! 

Only when the dog clearly "gets it" can you take it on the road and expect it to work on a walk. What she does is use something else for walks, such as a no pull harness (Easy Walk or Sense-ation), so that the dog learns that they can NEVER pull on the regular collar but there are different criteria for the harness. 

I found that when I was working seriously on leash skills I pretty much had to abandon the idea of actually going for a walk - sometimes we just traversed the same ground over and over again, back and forth and back and forth, we didn't really _get_ anywhere. In addition to Silky Leash I used penalty yards, where if Halo pulled forward, I'd back up, so she was getting further away from what she was interested in, or I'd turn and walk in the opposite direction. With left turns I'd bump into her as I did an abrupt about face, and eventually she learned to pay better attention and get out of my way! 

I'm going to find one of my previous posts where I talked about leash training and post a link rather than retype it all over again. There's another a shaping method that I also used, I'll link to that too.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here you go:


Silky Leash from Ahimsa Dog Training: Leash Walking Ahimsa Dog Blog

With Halo I used Silky Leash (#1), and #2 (rewarding for eye contact), #3 (rewarding for being in the sweet spot), and #4 (the Canine Cha Cha) to train leash skills. 

I also like Helix Fairweather's method of shaping polite leash skills. She has 3 steps, but I skipped over step one as too rudimentary, and went right to #2 and #3:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> The Silky Leash technique is fantastic. But the way it's taught is that you start working on yielding to the slightest bit of leash pressure indoors, in a low distraction environment, not out on a walk. Grisha Stewart, who talks about Silky Leash on her Ahimsa website, suggests starting in a small confined space with nothing going on......such as a bathroom!
> 
> Only when the dog clearly "gets it" can you take it on the road and expect it to work on a walk. What she does is use something else for walks, such as a no pull harness (Easy Walk or Sense-ation), so that the dog learns that they can NEVER pull on the regular collar but there are different criteria for the harness.
> 
> ...


I did start indoors and I couldn't get him to pull at all. He knew i had treats and there are no distractions at home so he was focused like never before

So I assumed I'm good to move outside. 

Watching the videos, thank you very much


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

But he's not supposed to pull at home. :thinking: You're supposed to sit in a low distraction room, put gentle pressure on the leash, and mark and reward when he moves in that direction. You're not actually walking anywhere. Is that how you've been training it?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But he's not supposed to pull at home. :thinking: You're supposed to sit in a low distraction room, put gentle pressure on the leash, and mark and reward when he moves in that direction. You're not actually walking anywhere. Is that how you've been training it?


Yep. I misunderstood then, as usual. As soon as I put any kind of pressure he follows. So I marked a few times and thought that since he's not pulling it's not teaching him anything. 

I understand what you're saying now, I'm glad I brought this up. I was really hoping to use this method and I thought I wouldn't be able to. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Think of this as foundation training. When you pull on the leash, you can activate the opposition reflex. (Opposition Reflex - Puddin's Training Tips)

What you're doing with Silky Leash is retraining that instinct to pull against pressure, and to yield to it instead - that's why you have to start at the beginning and go through all the steps. Read the description on Grisha's site that I linked to, and watch her videos. She explains it better than I can. The great thing is that once you train him to yield to leash pressure rather than to pull against it, it's taught. That doesn't necessarily mean that he won't ever pull, but if he does, you can more easily redirect him back towards you with a gentle pull on the leash.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

On this page Grisha goes into more detail, and has some training sessions on video: Silky Leash Video – How to Train Leash Walking | Ahimsa Dog Blog

If you scroll down, I have some posts from 2008 where I'm trying this for the first time with Keef, several months before we got Halo, and then again in 2010, where I used it with her.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> On this page Grisha goes into more detail, and has some training sessions on video: Silky Leash Video – How to Train Leash Walking | Ahimsa Dog Blog
> 
> If you scroll down, I have some posts from 2008 where I'm trying this for the first time with Keef, several months before we got Halo, and then again in 2010, where I used it with her.


Thank you so much!!!! I can't read or watch it tonight, I'm finally home so we are about to go out. But I will def read and watch everything. I'm so glad I have you to ask questions, I really like this method and want to use it. 


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