# American blood lines VS. German lines



## Kaz

My attention to this was brought by my fiancee' a native Lithuanian. An article comparing the GSD lines, which she translated for me is below. 

I researched a bit more, and I found the articles also mentioned herewith.

Couple that with the AKC dog shows, are we are breeding froggie GSD's with bad hips and absolutely no temperament or protection qualities? 

You be the judge!

Vokie?i? aviganiai: veisl?s tipai ir naujos variacijos

JAV vokiečių aviganiai pasižymi silpnu charakteriu ir yra niekam tikę kaip tarnybiniai šunys (išskyrus retas išimtis). Siekiant išgauti „ekstremalų“ VA tipą buvo prarastos tokios savybės kaip ištvermė, geras temperamentas ir darbiniai gebėjimai (vienas kinologas kalbėdamas apie elgseną juos pavadino „šiek tiek maniakais“, kitas teigė, kad amerikiečių ir vokiečių aviganiai – visiškai skirtingos veislės, nes veisiami dėl skirtingų tikslų). 

USA German Shepherd Dog has a weak character, and is useless as an official dog (except for rare exceptions). In order to get "extreme" type of VA (VA = GSD) were foregone qualities such as stamina, good temperament and working ability (one dog trainers talking about their behavior as "a little maniacs," (another) one said, that American and German Shepherd - a completely different breed, bred for the different goals).


German Shepherd German lines vs American lines German Shepherds

The American / Canadian shepherds are not required to pass any temperament test, or to do Schutzhund, to undergo the endurance test, to acquire a breed survey or any other requirement. They are not even required to be free of dysplasia. The only registry is the CKC or the AKC, which do not control the quality of the animals being bred. These animals retain a potential for protective behavior and responses, but without the courage, stability and clear headedness to temper their actions. They are often fear-biters, nervous and stressed, showing inappropriate aggressive tendencies. They lack the courage for true protection work, their aggressive behavior being a result of defensiveness and fear for themselves and not an instinct to protect their master. This can be confusing to a novice, but the end result is very different; you cannot count on this type of dog to protect and defend you in a threatening situation. 


German vs North American German Shepherd

German Bloodline dogs vs. American Bloodline dogs


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## Lucy Dog

Many will argue, even with the more stringent requirements to register in germany, that there's a big difference between the german show and working lines too. It's not just a AKC vs SV thing.

There are plenty of poorly bred and registered American and German GSD's. There are also some very good American and German GSD's too. 

It's not black and white - European vs American. That's more of a generalization you read on the internet with people stressing the idea of "crippled frog legs = bad and painful" vs "straight backs = good" when really they don't know much about structure to be making comments like that. They're just going on hearsay.


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## JakodaCD OA

Paul :thumbup:


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## Kaz

I am a bit lost here, so crippled frog legs is good?


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## Lucy Dog

Kaz said:


> I am a bit lost here, so crippled frog legs is good?


No, crippled legs are bad. Not all American GSD's or German shows have crippled legs... just the ones with hip dysplasia. The german working lines get hip dysplasia too.


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## zyppi

Another opinion...

Will The True Working Dog Disappear? International judge, AKC German Shepherd Dog Schutzhund Trainer, AKC Breeder Fred Lanting for TheDogPlace.org


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## Emoore

Kaz said:


> I am a bit lost here, so crippled frog legs is good?


Crippled is bad of course, but you're operating under the assumption that:

American = "angled" backs = crippled = bad
and
European = "straight" backs = health = good.

It's a big stretch to make.


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## robinhuerta

Good God......more of this stuff?.....


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## Emoore

robinhuerta said:


> Good God......more of this stuff?.....


Here lately there's a new batch every week.


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## Lucy Dog

robinhuerta said:


> Good God......more of this stuff?.....


lol, robin. I thought I'd just give the mature and level headed response. It's hard sometimes...


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## llombardo

I don't even know what line mine is from..I'm guessing American, but she is alert, loyal, and easy to train so I really don't care what line she's from--she has the potential to be whatever I want her to be with lots of love, patience, and training


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## chelle

robinhuerta said:


> Good God......more of this stuff?.....


One must also consider the source.


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## Freestep

Lucy Dog said:


> No, crippled legs are bad. Not all American GSD's or German shows have crippled legs... just the ones with hip dysplasia. The german working lines get hip dysplasia too.


I don't think that hip dysplasia has anything to do with the "crippled legs" they are talking about.


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## brembo

Alright then, what is the point of that sloping arse end? Does it help when shepherding? Or is it a vanity thing with show-line breeders? Looking at a dog from a purely scientific standpoint, it seems that a nice square relationship of the spine and hips would render the best performance and longevity. The slope (in my mind) looks like it would stress the rear legs more than necessary and cause stride issues when at a full bore run. 

*caveat* I have NO experience, have never interacted with or even met a show-line GSD. These are just observations from my admittedly non-professional viewpoint.


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## Lucy Dog

Freestep said:


> I don't think that hip dysplasia has anything to do with the "crippled legs" they are talking about.


Yeah.. i know exactly what the OP was referring to. Spend more than a month on this forum and it's pretty hard to miss when it's discussed over and over. 

I was just trying to give an example of something that would legitimately cripple a dogs backside... like HD.



brembo said:


> Alright then, what is the point of that sloping arse end? Does it help when shepherding? Or is it a vanity thing with show-line breeders? Looking at a dog from a purely scientific standpoint, it seems that a nice square relationship of the spine and hips would render the best performance and longevity. The slope (in my mind) looks like it would stress the rear legs more than necessary and cause stride issues when at a full bore run.
> 
> *caveat* I have NO experience, have never interacted with or even met a show-line GSD. These are just observations from my admittedly non-professional viewpoint.


Not all show lines (american or german) are like the extremely roached, angulated, or cow hocked ones you see in the two minute edited clips on youtube.


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## doggiedad

there you go. :thumbup:



llombardo said:


> I don't even know what line mine is from..I'm guessing American, but she is alert, loyal, and easy to train so I really don't care what line she's from--she has the potential to be whatever I want her to be with lots of love, patience, and training


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## LARHAGE

robinhuerta said:


> Good God......more of this stuff?.....



What would we do without the weekly whipping of the proverbial dead horse, I'm out of here, have to go feed my crippled frog legged dogs, one of which actually completed a 10 mile trail ride today :wild:


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## codmaster

Kaz said:


> My attention to this was brought by my fiancee' a native Lithuanian. An article comparing the GSD lines, which she translated for me is below.
> 
> I researched a bit more, and I found the articles also mentioned herewith.
> 
> Couple that with the AKC dog shows, are we are breeding froggie GSD's with bad hips and absolutely no temperament or protection qualities?
> 
> You be the judge!
> 
> Vokie?i? aviganiai: veisl?s tipai ir naujos variacijos
> 
> JAV vokiečių aviganiai pasižymi silpnu charakteriu ir yra niekam tikę kaip tarnybiniai šunys (išskyrus retas išimtis). Siekiant išgauti „ekstremalų“ VA tipą buvo prarastos tokios savybės kaip ištvermė, geras temperamentas ir darbiniai gebėjimai (vienas kinologas kalbėdamas apie elgseną juos pavadino „šiek tiek maniakais“, kitas teigė, kad amerikiečių ir vokiečių aviganiai – visiškai skirtingos veislės, nes veisiami dėl skirtingų tikslų).
> 
> USA German Shepherd Dog has a weak character, and is useless as an official dog (except for rare exceptions). In order to get "extreme" type of VA (VA = GSD) were foregone qualities such as stamina, good temperament and working ability (one dog trainers talking about their behavior as "a little maniacs," (another) one said, that American and German Shepherd - a completely different breed, bred for the different goals).
> 
> 
> German Shepherd German lines vs American lines German Shepherds
> 
> The American / Canadian shepherds are not required to pass any temperament test, or to do Schutzhund, to undergo the endurance test, to acquire a breed survey or any other requirement. They are not even required to be free of dysplasia. The only registry is the CKC or the AKC, which do not control the quality of the animals being bred. These animals retain a potential for protective behavior and responses, but without the courage, stability and clear headedness to temper their actions. They are often fear-biters, nervous and stressed, showing inappropriate aggressive tendencies. They lack the courage for true protection work, their aggressive behavior being a result of defensiveness and fear for themselves and not an instinct to protect their master. This can be confusing to a novice, but the end result is very different; you cannot count on this type of dog to protect and defend you in a threatening situation.
> 
> 
> German vs North American German Shepherd
> 
> German Bloodline dogs vs. American Bloodline dogs


 
Let's see, this is from a European person, right?


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## codmaster

Emoore said:


> Crippled is bad of course, but you're operating under the assumption that:
> 
> American = "angled" backs = crippled = bad
> and
> European = "straight" backs = health = good.
> 
> It's a big stretch to make.


 
Very true!!!!!

BTW, does the European "Straight" equal "Roach" in the translation?


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## Freestep

Lucy Dog said:


> Yeah.. i know exactly what the OP was referring to. Spend more than a month on this forum and it's pretty hard to miss when it's discussed over and over.


Yes, but the OP hasn't necessarily read all those threads and may not be familiar with the discussion. So I was just clarifying for the OP: the extreme angulation which makes the back appear sloped, has nothing to do with hip dysplasia. Your post sort of made it sound like the two were related.


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## Emoore

codmaster said:


> Very true!!!!!
> 
> BTW, does the European "Straight" equal "Roach" in the translation?




Who knows? I think in the popular imagination, "straight" backs are either a) European or b) Olde Fashioned, and anything non-straight is American. I'd love to get photos of working, show, and Ye Olde Fashioned straight-back Shepherds all in various stages of stacked, unstacked, and exaggerated stacked and see if the folks beating this horse can tell the difference.


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## brembo

My earlier post was addressed to some extent. I'm still wondering:

What purpose does the sloped/roached stance serve? I am aware that the show stacking is for presentation, it does look rather majestic. Was this "stack" bred into lines to help with showing?


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## Kaz

I think we can all agree on one thing here: We all love German Shepherds.

And I am American btw, so my loyalties are not skewed. God knows the last time when I was in Paris, I nearly decked a guy for being rude. (I speak passable French, and so I know the meaning of the snide remarks).

The first link on the original post is from Lithuania, a EU nation, but the others are from US websites.

As a community we need to take cognizance of a malpractice instead of defending it for the sake for partisan lines.

The points the websites are raising are valid: And please note, the sites DID NOT harp on about sloped backs or straight backs. They spoke primarily about character! 

Let me remind you:
*"USA German Shepherd Dog has a weak character, and is useless as an official dog (except for rare exceptions). In order to get "extreme" type of VA (*vokiečių aviganių = VA = German Shepherd*) were foregone qualities such as stamina, good temperament and working ability"*


Can we agree:

1) Mere registration on AKC should not be the only criteria for breeding, like the German lines, we should include a basic training criteria.

2) I chose to spend thousands for a well bred dog because of one reason : we are planning to have babies, and I dont want to risk my family's well being because of a dog whose temperament is not known.

3) How many new dog owners know about the differing standards? I had no idea! When I talked to several breeders, they assured me of "Good temperament", now when I think about it, on what grounds?! The American bred GSD line without the requirement for schutzhund certification has no basis for guaranteeing temperament.

Please understand that, apart from the "I know old Bruno wouldn't hurt a fly" mentality, there has to be some tangible evidence which could guarantee good temperament and strength in character. 

Its not just about straight or sloped backs and hip dysplasia. I think that point became the focal point of the discussion from the collective guilt. Because, from countless articles and pictures it is evident, American lines do tend to have more sloped backs, and honestly as one poster mentioned, it does look unnatural and skewed even to his and my unprofessional eye. 

So what are we doing? 

Taking a noble line, and breeding in softness, size, health issues, with no concern for temperament and strength of character?

Can we get a unified response for once, we are after all the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG forum!

We love these dogs and it is up to us, to raise awareness and eliminate issues if we identify them.

Other wise we would be like the US administration. When problems came, we hid our heads in sand... in the sand of the middle east!


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## hattifattener

@ Kaz

i wont argue here.

just want to say that there are good breeders in Lithuania.

i am thinking about male pup from this sire (maybe).

LV JCH; 2XLV CH Pavlo Garliavietis - German Shepherd Dog

if he isn't MASCULINE and IMPRESSIVE then who is?:laugh:

and yes, Schh title is mandatory in order to breed German shepherd dog in Germany.


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## Emoore

Kaz, in regards to your point #1, #2, and #3 above, how many times have you watched a thread on this forum where someone is looking for a breeder? Has _anyone_ on this forum _ever_ told someone, "just go with a breeder who has AKC registered dogs; you'll be fine"?

No.

We always tell potential buyers to look for a breeder whose dogs have hip/elbow certifications at minimum (often other health certs as well) and who title their dogs in various venues to prove temperament. 

There are excellent breeders here in America who breed healthy Euro line dogs to the SV standard. There are other excellent breeders here in America who breed healthy American line dogs (no, healthy and American are not mutually exclusive) to their _own_ exacting standards which include health and temperament/performance testing. After all, not everybody wants a Schutzhund dog. As we're told countless times. 

You're preaching to the choir here.


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## martemchik

Although I dislike American lines, I will defend them here. Just because people in the United States don't do Schutzhund doesn't mean that dogs are of poor temperment. There are plenty of breeders who show in the conformation ring and in the obedience ring at AKC shows and their dogs prove that they are worthy of breeding. I'm hoping that you posted this article in order to learn and see other opinions, and not just basing your opinion of American lines on an article.

Go out and meet some dogs, there are plenty of dogs out there coming from great breeders that have great temperments. If you're worried about a dog not biting children, its quite easy to find an American line that won't do that. I've actually never heard of any line biting children. If you are looking for good family temperment, then American lines are probably more fitting than German lines. German lines are of course more driven, which means they need more attention, and when you have children, you don't always have time to take care of your dogs needs.

How about this for a situation, an American breeder imported German lines 20 years ago, and has had 10+ generations of puppies since then without importing another dog and including him/her in the breeding program. Would you call those American or German dogs? What about the American breeders of German lines that just import Schutzhund titled dogs from Germany, don't work them in the United States, and breed pups. So how are those breeders/dogs any better than the breeders of American lines that do work their dogs? Maybe not in the German preferred method of Schutzhund, but in an acceptable, and widely available venue like the AKC.


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## msvette2u

Lucy Dog said:


> Many will argue, even with the more stringent requirements to register in germany, that there's a big difference between the german show and working lines too. It's not just a AKC vs SV thing.
> 
> There are plenty of poorly bred and registered American and German GSD's. There are also some very good American and German GSD's too.
> 
> It's not black and white - European vs American. That's more of a generalization you read on the internet with people stressing the idea of "crippled frog legs = bad and painful" vs "straight backs = good" when really they don't know much about structure to be making comments like that. They're just going on hearsay.


:thumbup::thumbup:
Sick of hearing and seeing this argument. 
It's an elitist thing. A friend of mine is a good breeder in FL, I'd get a dog from her if it wasn't so far to ship - plus we found our Ruger!
But her dogs are healthy, not overangulated and great pets/guardians, yet she breeds ASLs. How can this be? Healthy, stable American Show lines!?


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## msvette2u

Emoore said:


> You're preaching to the choir here.


 good post.
Kaz, weren't you the one wanting to power-feed your dog (no other term for it) so he grew to over 100lb and would feel sick if he was not at least 100lb??
How can you come on here ranting about breed standards and the like when you bought a pup from parents who were not the standard and furthermore, want your dog to be away from the standard??


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## codmaster

Would anyone say that a ScH title is sufficient to make a dog breed worthy? If so, is ScH1 enough or does the dog need/should have a ScH3.

It sure seems to me that besides the training title a dog should also have some type of conformation certification before being breed worthy (and naturally some health checks (i.e. OFA). However, how about a genetic check so we know if they are carriers of any genetic diseases (I believe there are a few of these now).

The problem seems that, if we expect a dog to be passing on all of these things, there might be very very few dogs that are breedworthy. 

And temperament/character is perhaps the most subjective of all. What some might call proper GSD, others might call too "sharp" or some might say a friendly adult GSD was too "Golden" like.

The purpose of the GSD individual would also come into the judgement - a GSD destined for Seeing Eye work would certainly have a different flavored temp. than one destined for a K9 military/police patrol work I would guess.


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## DFrost

Kaz said:


> My attention to this was brought by my fiancee' a native Lithuanian. An article comparing the GSD lines, which she translated for me is below.
> 
> I researched a bit more, and I found the articles also mentioned herewith.
> 
> Couple that with the AKC dog shows, are we are breeding froggie GSD's with bad hips and absolutely no temperament or protection qualities?
> 
> You be the judge!


 
From a working dog experience, both military and police, I'd say American bred dog, of the calibre needed, are in short supply. It's pretty obvious when law enforcement and the military are spending pretty big dollars, overseas, because the number of dogs needed are not available. I would say the majority of dogs purchased from American vendors are imported. There are, in the past few years, some American vendors that are producing some "homegrown" prospects. They, however are from imported stock. I think it's easy to see the state of the American GSD is dreadful. I would think Herr M. von Stephanitz is spinning in his grave. 

DFrost


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## msvette2u

> I think it's easy to see the state of the American GSD is dreadful.


As others said, I'd recommend you actually visit some breeders and some shows, there's some very good breeders in America, of "home grown" stock. 
Just because you've seen a few overbred ones, that likely came from petstores (puppy mills) and folks with no goal in mind other than making money on their puppies, doesn't mean they are all like that.


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## Andaka

I am a breeder of those "crippled" ASL German Shepherds. Here are pictures and a write up of a couple of those dogs.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-lines-breeders-bloodlines-3.html#post2174837


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## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> Sick of hearing and seeing this argument.
> It's an elitist thing.


How is it "elitist" ?


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## msvette2u

Because people with "working lines" stick up their noses and claim a show dog can't do anything but "look pretty". They degrade American "show line" dogs all the time (can't work, can't move) and it's just not true. Andaka's dogs prove that.


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## LaRen616

I like all GSDs. 

I have a American/West German Showline male that means the world to me.

I also have a Czech/West German Working line female that raises heck. 

My only request is that the dog is black, so whether they are showline or working line it doesn't matter to me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Being the dog nerd I am I look at all the breeder links I possibly can to read and learn! Lovely dogs!

MHO, _in general_, there has been a tendancy to breed more for extremes in the conformation focused venues. This is not only true of dogs, I saw it in the horse world too. Quarter horses and arabs have gone through a few revolutions in type over the years, some very extreme. 

Having said that, I'm noticing on both continents, there does seem to be a shift to less extremes in the conformation dogs. I recently saw a WGSL dog at stud in Germany who was extolled (and looked) to be of a less extreme type. I think this is in part due to a better educated audience/fanciers of the GSD. Increased awareness brings some negative comments but it also helps highlight the breeders who are doing a good job (& those who are not) while promoting a better understanding of the breed.

So paint me happy because I think some problems of extremes being accepted in the show line dogs now seem to be on the wane and sorted out for the better. 




Andaka said:


> I am a breeder of those "crippled" ASL German Shepherds. Here are pictures and a write up of a couple of those dogs.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-lines-breeders-bloodlines-3.html#post2174837


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## Kaz

DFrost said:


> From a working dog experience, both military and police, I'd say American bred dog, of the calibre needed, are in short supply. It's pretty obvious when law enforcement and the military are spending pretty big dollars, overseas, because the number of dogs needed are not available. I would say the majority of dogs purchased from American vendors are imported. There are, in the past few years, some American vendors that are producing some "homegrown" prospects. They, however are from imported stock. I think it's easy to see the state of the American GSD is dreadful. I would think Herr M. von Stephanitz is spinning in his grave.
> 
> DFrost


 
^ Pretty much sums up what the websites were promulgating. 

** Politics of any sort even sublte is not allowed on this board. ADMIN** 

Mediocrity is appreciated and fussed over, everyone is a winner, and from numerous posts even to this thread, we defend it.

Its funny to see breeders post their stock here, and re-direct the talk to "frog legs", when the main issue under discussion is "Temperament and ability to be 'official' dogs".

But are frog legs also a by-product of this senseless breeding program, probably yes. 

We have had countless posts about "Back-yard breeders" on this forum. I remember a Hispanic lady offered to sell me a GSD pup for $600, and claimed its sire was AKC registered. I asked her the standard questions, to find out more, and was a bit stunned with the glibness of her answers. 

Evidently I could even register the pup with the AKC, because she offered to link the pup to some registered female as its mother (When it is not the case)!

Needless to say, I didnt buy that pup, but the whole incident left me wondering.

Is it a far stretch for us, as a community, which is opposed to the malpractices of backyard breeders, take some of these "well heeled" breeders to task?

After reading these articles, if you are a new dog owner, do you feel confident that your dog has the courage and temperament to be close to your infant child?

Let me remind you of the post from an AMERICAN website:

*"...Without the courage, stability and clear headedness to temper their actions. They are often fear-biters, nervous and stressed, showing inappropriate aggressive tendencies. They lack the courage for true protection work, their aggressive behavior being a result of defensiveness and fear for themselves and not an instinct to protect their master. This can be confusing to a novice, but the end result is very different; you cannot count on this type of dog to protect and defend you in a threatening situation. "*

And its not an elitist thing to point out deficiencies. As people who love this breed, it is our responsibility to seek the truth, educate ourselves and try to seek correction of wrong practices.

And @ msvette2u. Please re-read my old posts. Use google translate if you have difficulty in comprehending English. Nice try btw to derail the current topic with baseless personal attacks. 

Let me ask you again, if not the German Shepherd forum, then where else, do we raise consciousness of this issue?


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## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> Because people with "working lines" stick up their noses and claim a show dog can't do anything but "look pretty". They degrade American "show line" dogs all the time (can't work, can't move) and it's just not true. Andaka's dogs prove that.


There are exceptions, but from what I have seen, many ASL do not show correct GSD temperament or working ability... but it's not the dogs' fault, and I'd love to be proven wrong. We need more breeders like Andaka! 

There are some breeders who care only about winning in the conformation ring, to the detriment of health/temperament/working ability. And it's not just GSDs, it's all breeds. You simply can't deny that this goes on in the AKC show world--that's why you have to be careful who you get a dog from if you're concerned with more than "pretty".


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## msvette2u

It is not a personal attack to point out an older post of yours (it was all your words).

And again, you're preaching to the choir. There's good and bad breeders. Stay away from the bad ones (there's a sticky here about how to spot a GOOD breeder) and you'll do fine.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> There are exceptions, but from what I have seen, many ASL do not show correct GSD temperament or working ability... but it's not the dogs' fault, and I'd love to be proven wrong. We need more breeders like Andaka!
> 
> There are some breeders who care only about winning in the conformation ring, to the detriment of health/temperament/working ability. And it's not just GSDs, it's all breeds. You simply can't deny that this goes on in the AKC show world--that's why you have to be careful who you get a dog from if you're concerned with more than "pretty".


There's a sticky about how to find a good breeder. 
A good breeder looks at the whole dog. As said in another thread, if you're going to discount an ASL dog because it "can't work" then we must also discount German working lines because they cannot look "pretty" in the ring.


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## asja

msvette2u said:


> There's a sticky about how to find a good breeder.
> A good breeder looks at the whole dog. As said in another thread, if you're going to discount an ASL dog because it "can't work" then we must also discount German working lines because they cannot look "pretty" in the ring.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think my German working line dogs are beautiful. My beautiful girl has a lovely floating trot.


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## Lucy Dog

Kaz... again, isn't your dog a show line dog? He sure looks like one from his pictures. The "crippled frog legs" argument isn't an American specific thing, it's more of a show line thing. 



Kaz said:


> Let me ask you again, if not the German Shepherd forum, then where else, do we raise consciousness of this issue?


The real world... 

As emoore said in an earlier post, on here you're "preaching to the choir". Go back and read her post again. No ones arguing the basis of what you're trying to say.


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## martemchik

Kaz said:


> ^
> After reading these articles, if you are a new dog owner, do you feel confident that your dog has the courage and temperament to be close to your infant child?
> 
> Let me remind you of the post from an AMERICAN website:
> 
> *"...Without the courage, stability and clear headedness to temper their actions. They are often fear-biters, nervous and stressed, showing inappropriate aggressive tendencies. They lack the courage for true protection work, their aggressive behavior being a result of defensiveness and fear for themselves and not an instinct to protect their master. This can be confusing to a novice, but the end result is very different; you cannot count on this type of dog to protect and defend you in a threatening situation. "*
> 
> And its not an elitist thing to point out deficiencies. As people who love this breed, it is our responsibility to seek the truth, educate ourselves and try to seek correction of wrong practices.


No offense but you are taking all your knowledge off of articles on websites...go out and meet dogs. You yourself have only had a GSD pup for a few months and have no idea what you dog will become. You just expect, because you found a good breeder, that he will be balanced. You have no idea what might happen over the next few months.

Are you working your dog in protection? Do you think yours has the temperament for it? I don't have an ASL, I have a working line and I can tell you my dog has met a 10 day old baby and had no issue with it. He was extremely curious and had no issues. There are dozens of ASL dogs at my club that would have no problem meeting babies, they would actually be less curious and completely fine with new borns. I have SEEN their temperaments, I'm not just reading websites (and it doesn't matter from where).

Even your quote includes the word OFTEN in it. It is a word that is interestingly often overlooked and forgotten when it is used to try and prove a point. How often are these dogs the things that is stated? I have actually seen more working line dogs have temperament issues than the ASLs. And there are about 10 times more ASLs at our club than working line dogs.

Stop attacking a line of dogs just because of generalizations you read on a website.


----------



## Lucy Dog

martemchik said:


> No offense but you are taking all your knowledge off of articles on websites...go out and meet dogs.





martemchik said:


> Stop attacking a line of dogs just because of generalizations you read on a website.


And that pretty much sums up this thread.


----------



## Samba

I have American Showlines. I can not tell you where to go in these lines to find working drives, courage and fight drive intact genetically. If I were looking for these characteristics, I definitely would not look to these dogs in general. 

I have some decent WL dogs too. Living with both for many years now I can tell you there is definitely a difference. Some American dogs I have been around had good nerves and decent drives, particularly herding. But if we are looking for a particular genetic cache, there are real differences. The general paths taken in the breeding of the lines have been divergent.

I have a pretty extreme female regards rear end. Good hips and freakishly agile! But, if I needed a dog to fight for me or work all day,no doubt my WL girl is my choice. It should be so, generations of breeding choices make it thus.


----------



## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> As said in another thread, if you're going to discount an ASL dog because it "can't work" then we must also discount German working lines because they cannot look "pretty" in the ring.


Personally, I do not take offense to that. I'll take an "ugly" dog with proper temperament over a pretty basket case all day long.  And I'm not discounting ASL as a whole, a good dog is a good dog no matter where it came from. 

There needs to be a balance--conformation, health, temperament, working ability. When a breeder focuses on one thing and disregards the others, there is imbalance. Personally I don't think looks should be the #1 priority in any breeding program, and it seems to me that some show ring fanciers in America focus more on sidegait than temperament. It's the same overseas, but at least there, the dogs must be titled in SchH, so that is at least a temperament test of sorts. 

Again, there are exceptions and I'd love to be proven wrong--heck, I'd have no problem buying an ASL pup if the dog was right for me.


----------



## msvette2u

Quote:
Originally Posted by martemchik 
*Stop attacking a line of dogs just because of generalizations you read on a website.*


_And that pretty much sums up this thread._

Amen to that.


----------



## PaddyD

My ASL bitch. Not too roachy or froggy.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Kaz said:


> And its not an elitist thing to point out deficiencies. As people who love this breed, it is our responsibility to seek the truth, educate ourselves and try to seek correction of wrong practices.


It's not elitist at all, but you can't do it by making assumptions and painting all dogs from any given line with the same broad brush. 
Every breeder should be judged on their own merit and the dogs they produce. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Maybe instead of banning politics, the forum should ban the use of words like ASL, WGSL, etc., working line and show line. People would have to talk about the actual dogs rather than the labels attached to which ever line they happen to be from.


----------



## Good_Karma

My ASL Niko just ran five miles through four inches of snow with me this morning, and can't wait to get outside this afternoon to run another two with my husband. Boy ,what a cripple!! What is this breed coming to???


----------



## msvette2u

Poor thing, he can barely walk. 
Oh wait. Um...I read they have froggie legs!??


----------



## Courtney

Beautiful!


Handsome!


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Whiteshepherds said:


> It's not elitist at all, but you can't do it by making assumptions and painting all dogs from any given line with the same broad brush.
> Every breeder should be judged on their own merit and the dogs they produce. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> Maybe instead of banning politics, the forum should ban the use of words like ASL, WGSL, etc., working line and show line. People would have to talk about the actual dogs rather than the labels attached to which ever line they happen to be from.


And if you are looking for a puppy to raise for purpose xyz, what are you supposed to talk about? How are you supposed to narrow your search?

While I do agree we shouldn't generalize based on lines, I don't think we shouldn't talk about lines and the dogs they often produce...


----------



## msvette2u

Go to a good breeder. They can assist you. Go to dog shows. Don't sit around reading the 'net and think you know everything now.
(general "you", not YOU specifically).


----------



## carmspack

Lucy Dog said:


> No, crippled legs are bad. Not all American GSD's or German shows have crippled legs... just the ones with hip dysplasia. The german working lines get hip dysplasia too.


 
It has nothing to do with hip dysplasia. The dog is too long , exaggerated and is loose and wobbly. This is not an effective working dog . Not the conformation nor condition , not athletic . 

The working dog , which this breed is, was described as sinewy . The discussion is not so much a North America vs Europe as working vs show (again)





















*Der Deutsche Schäferhund*

*So nicht !*
















Solche Hunde sind weder schön, noch arbeitsfähig! Viel zu lange wurde dem Treiben einiger verantwortungsloser Züchter Zeit gegeben, das ursprüngliche Arbeitstier" Deutscher Schäferhund" so zu verunstalten! Wer das schön oder gar zweckmäßig findet, dem ist nicht zu helfen.

This from a union of working shepherds .


----------



## Emoore

The issue with this thread is sweeping generalizations made by someone who read an article and who hasn't actually gotten out and met a lot of dogs of different lines, produced by different breeders.

There are show line breeders producing dogs who really aren't suited to do anything but trot around a ring and win ribbons. They are unsuited to any type of work and are physically unsound.

There are working line breeders producing dogs who really aren't suited to do anything but bite a man in a suit. They are unsuited to be family companions and either are so sharp they'll "come up the leash on you" or are so prey-driven they wouldn't know what to do with a rapist attacking their owner because he's not wearing a sleeve. 

Neither one is correct. Also, none of this is new to any of us. You just can't make a sweeping generalization that "American = bad" or "Show = bad" and "Euro = good" or "working = good." They all have their own rotten extremes.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

anyone (who doesn't know!) wanna guess what my boy was?


----------



## Andaka

I know! I know! :wub:


----------



## martemchik

I'm going to guess you dog was...

Lacking in courage, stability and clear headedness. He was a fear-biter, nervous and stressed, showed inappropriate aggressive tendenies. Clearly lacked courage and all of his aggressive behavior was a result of defensiveness and fear. Probably never protected you also.

I mean, just look at him staring down the judge...he just looks scared.


----------



## msvette2u

Well and..."Poor thing, he can barely walk. 
Oh wait. Um...I read they have froggie legs!?? "

heh

He's drop dead gorgeous is what he is!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

hope your kidding cause he was none of those..

He was 7 months old in that picture, and (not me with him and I think she was choking him LOL since she'd never shown a shepherd before) First show, major reserve. 

Daphne LOL


----------



## martemchik

Lol, look over the quote Kaz posted earlier. If your dog is ASL he must be those things. I mean, there's just no other way.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

martemchik, I figured you were kidding,,actually I'll spill, Dodge was 1/2 american show lines and 1/2 DDR


----------



## codmaster

emoore said:


> the issue with this thread is sweeping generalizations made by someone who read an article and who hasn't actually gotten out and met a lot of dogs of different lines, produced by different breeders.
> 
> There are show line breeders producing dogs who really aren't suited to do anything but trot around a ring and win ribbons. They are unsuited to any type of work and are physically unsound.
> 
> There are working line breeders producing dogs who really aren't suited to do anything but bite a man in a suit. They are unsuited to be family companions and either are so sharp they'll "come up the leash on you" or are so prey-driven they wouldn't know what to do with a rapist attacking their owner because he's not wearing a sleeve.
> 
> Neither one is correct. Also, none of this is new to any of us. You just can't make a sweeping generalization that "american = bad" or "show = bad" and "euro = good" or "working = good." they all have their own rotten extremes.


 
exactly!


----------



## codmaster

Also, at our local ScH club meeting Saturday, one of the members brought a beautiful book from one of the recent German Seiger shows - what a comprehensive book - filled with pictures of all of the dogs and also the descriptions from the judge.

Many of the dogs shown were absolutely stunning but one thing that even I could notice was the great number of dogs who to me showed an extreme roach in the back, Some (a few) of them were so bad that they looked deformed - just as bad in their own way as the extreme rear over angulationin the US National show. Both equally exaggerated in a bad way to me.


----------



## codmaster

JakodaCD OA said:


> anyone (who doesn't know!) wanna guess what my boy was?


A very pretty almost all black GSD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## chelle

msvette2u said:


> Kaz, weren't you the one wanting to power-feed your dog (no other term for it) so he grew to over 100lb and would feel sick if he was not at least 100lb??
> 
> *How can you* come on here ranting about breed standards and the like when you bought a pup from parents who were *not the standard* and furthermore, *want your dog to be away from the standard*??


Pure arrogance, perhaps? 



martemchik said:


> No offense but you are taking all your knowledge off of articles on websites...go out and meet dogs. _*You yourself have only had a GSD pup for a few months and have no idea what you dog will become. You just expect, because you found a good breeder, that he will be balanced. You have no idea what might happen over the next few months*._
> 
> Are you working your dog in protection? Do you think yours has the temperament for it? _*(His 5 month old can intimidate an adult pitbull, does that count? :rolleyes2*_ I don't have an ASL, I have a working line and I can tell you my dog has met a 10 day old baby and had no issue with it. He was extremely curious and had no issues. There are dozens of ASL dogs at my club that would have no problem meeting babies, they would actually be less curious and completely fine with new borns. I have SEEN their temperaments, I'm not just reading websites (and it doesn't matter from where).
> 
> Even your quote includes the word OFTEN in it. It is a word that is interestingly often overlooked and forgotten when it is used to try and prove a point. How often are these dogs the things that is stated? I have actually seen more working line dogs have temperament issues than the ASLs. And there are about 10 times more ASLs at our club than working line dogs.
> 
> Stop attacking a line of dogs just because of generalizations you read on a website.


:thumbup:



ayoitzrimz said:


> And* if you are looking for a puppy to raise* for purpose xyz, what are you supposed to talk about? How are you supposed to narrow your search?
> 
> While I do agree we shouldn't generalize based on lines, I don't think we shouldn't talk about lines and the dogs they often produce...


This person already has the dog. If they didn't and this was a part of their research, I'd give it far more merit, but that isn't the case.


I've not been on this site (actively) all *that* long, but long enough to see countless threads on this issue. I read thru them often, because I'd like to learn, even though I have a WGSD mix (so have no card in the hand, so to speak) and have zero intentions of buying a pb GSD for many years to come, if ever even.

The arrogance of a poster with their first pup that is still very young and from unknown origin, to come in and disrespect the breeders and *experienced* owners completely floors me. You folks have been very civil and that's to be commended. Good for you nice people.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

ayoitzrimz said:


> And if you are looking for a puppy to raise for purpose xyz, what are you supposed to talk about? How are you supposed to narrow your search?
> 
> While I do agree we shouldn't generalize based on lines, I don't think we shouldn't talk about lines and the dogs they often produce...


I didn't literally mean the words should be banned from the forum, I was just trying to drive home a point.


----------



## carmspack

Kaz said:


> I think we can all agree on one thing here: We all love German Shepherds.
> 
> And I am American btw, so my loyalties are not skewed. God knows the last time when I was in Paris, I nearly decked a guy for being rude. (I speak passable French, and so I know the meaning of the snide remarks).
> 
> The first link on the original post is from Lithuania, a EU nation, but the others are from US websites.
> 
> As a community we need to take cognizance of a malpractice instead of defending it for the sake for partisan lines.
> 
> The points the websites are raising are valid: And please note, the sites DID NOT harp on about sloped backs or straight backs. They spoke primarily about character!
> 
> Let me remind you:
> *"USA German Shepherd Dog has a weak character, and is useless as an official dog (except for rare exceptions). In order to get "extreme" type of VA (*vokiečių aviganių = VA = German Shepherd*) were foregone qualities such as stamina, good temperament and working ability"*
> 
> 
> Can we agree:
> 
> 1) Mere registration on AKC should not be the only criteria for breeding, like the German lines, we should include a basic training criteria.
> 
> 2) I chose to spend thousands for a well bred dog because of one reason : we are planning to have babies, and I dont want to risk my family's well being because of a dog whose temperament is not known.
> 
> 3) How many new dog owners know about the differing standards? I had no idea! When I talked to several breeders, they assured me of "Good temperament", now when I think about it, on what grounds?! The American bred GSD line without the requirement for schutzhund certification has no basis for guaranteeing temperament.
> 
> Please understand that, apart from the "I know old Bruno wouldn't hurt a fly" mentality, there has to be some tangible evidence which could guarantee good temperament and strength in character.
> 
> Its not just about straight or sloped backs and hip dysplasia. I think that point became the focal point of the discussion from the collective guilt. Because, from countless articles and pictures it is evident, American lines do tend to have more sloped backs, and honestly as one poster mentioned, it does look unnatural and skewed even to his and my unprofessional eye.
> 
> So what are we doing?
> 
> Taking a noble line, and breeding in softness, size, health issues, with no concern for temperament and strength of character?
> 
> Can we get a unified response for once, we are after all the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG forum!
> 
> We love these dogs and it is up to us, to raise awareness and eliminate issues if we identify them.
> 
> Other wise we would be like the US administration. When problems came, we hid our heads in sand... in the sand of the middle east!


xxx

so last week I bought a magazine which normally would have zero interest for me . This issue , nov 2011 will sit on my shelves for reference material to refer to . A high production , picture heavy , glossy CANINE REVIEW - full page show advertising all breeds . BUT in this issue Group Seven herding dogs - German Shepherds and Belgian Shepherds. Many comments about the size of the dogs,  the lack of definite sex characteristics and again -much about temperament. Judges and breeders interviewed.
Sandy Anderson - Woodside "Both sexes must be of absolutely correct temperament. The GSD is an aloof breed, not overtly friendly one and should NEVER be timid, fearful, or aggressive without provocation." But you know all that . right ?
So here she continues " I still see too many dogs in the ring that cannot or will not stand their ground and others who have very obviously been trained to pass a very simple temperament test. The dogs eyes do not lie and I find it very sad that many of today's exhibits have a fearful and unsure look in their eyes"

wait a minute -- that was not codmaster's "Let's see, this is from a European person, right?" this was the opinion of a well known , long involved, respected "American" breeder (Aldergrove BC Canada). 
another said -- "The German Shepherds today are far more shy than aggressive. ... I am always concerned when I see a dog in the ring that a breeder is showcasing for all to see , it it's temperament is not sound and they are telling us that this is the one they have chosen to be the best in the litter. What does that tell you about the rest of the litter?.............This person, judge Vandendool continues ..."the number one thing is the temperament of the dog. This is the most versatile breed you can have and it needs to be sound ..........."I really place a lot of emphasis on the topline of the dog. I want to see a good strong back without roach or sag. The breed standard calls for a level top line while in motion and I think breeders need to try to improve this in our breed"

notice *level top line while in MOTION* see how many SV showlines there are with this .

there are so many other comments about too much attention on exaggerated rears -- meanwhile loosing upper arm - (we covered this in the dog who was crabby ) "many judges have questioned the weakness in the hind end of many GSD. Although the Canadian Kennel Club standard describes "the metatarus, the unit between the hock joint and the foot commonly end erroneously called the hock, is strong, clean and short , the hock joint clean-cut and sharply defined", it is seldom seen. -- well we see that in GSL also. 

so there you go - comments which support the OP's orginal material translated , only this time from breeders, handlers and judges in North America .

got to face what is and change where change is needed.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## codmaster

carmspack said:


> xxx
> 
> so last week I bought a magazine which normally would have zero interest for me . This issue , nov 2011 will sit on my shelves for reference material to refer to . A high production , picture heavy , glossy CANINE REVIEW - full page show advertising all breeds . BUT in this issue Group Seven herding dogs - German Shepherds and Belgian Shepherds. Many comments about the size of the dogs, the lack of definite sex characteristics and again -much about temperament. Judges and breeders interviewed.
> Sandy Anderson - Woodside "Both sexes must be of absolutely correct temperament. The GSD is an aloof breed, not overtly friendly one and should NEVER be timid, fearful, or aggressive without provocation." But you know all that . right ?
> So here she continues " I still see too many dogs in the ring that cannot or will not stand their ground and others who have very obviously been trained to pass a very simple temperament test. The dogs eyes do not lie and I find it very sad that many of today's exhibits have a fearful and unsure look in their eyes"
> 
> wait a minute -- that was not codmaster's "Let's see, this is from a European person, right?" this was the opinion of a well known , long involved, respected "American" breeder (Aldergrove BC Canada).
> another said -- "The German Shepherds today are far more shy than aggressive. ... I am always concerned when I see a dog in the ring that a breeder is showcasing for all to see , it it's temperament is not sound and they are telling us that this is the one they have chosen to be the best in the litter. What does that tell you about the rest of the litter?.............This person, judge Vandendool continues ..."the number one thing is the temperament of the dog. This is the most versatile breed you can have and it needs to be sound ..........."I really place a lot of emphasis on the topline of the dog. I want to see a good strong back without roach or sag. The breed standard calls for a level top line while in motion and I think breeders need to try to improve this in our breed"
> 
> notice *level top line while in MOTION* see how many SV showlines there are with this .
> 
> there are so many other comments about too much attention on exaggerated rears -- meanwhile loosing upper arm - (we covered this in the dog who was crabby ) "many judges have questioned the weakness in the hind end of many GSD. Although the Canadian Kennel Club standard describes "the metatarus, the unit between the hock joint and the foot commonly end erroneously called the hock, is strong, clean and short , the hock joint clean-cut and sharply defined", it is seldom seen. -- well we see that in GSL also.
> 
> so there you go - comments which support the OP's orginal material translated , only this time from breeders, handlers and judges in North America .
> 
> got to face what is and change where change is needed.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


So carm,
Since you do make a reference to one of my posts, lets see - my guess, without any knowledge of your kennel and breeding approach, is that you are a fan of imported WL, not US show lines; would that be the case? 

Or maybe I am all misguided and you are very successful in the US show area and have had your dogs highly rated as show dogs but also with great solid temperament? Which would be the case?

I absolutely agree that US show lines do need some real improvement in both structure and temperament, HOWEVER could we please also recognize the fact that European GSD's may not be perfect either. 

Or maybe they are all good/better, and we ought to just stop breeding any US GSD's and just import a bunch of GSD's from across the big pond and then all will be perfect in the world of the GSD.

And all of the extreme Roached backs are just a figament of the camera and these will just fix themselves as soon as the dog is "in motion".

BTW, with the broad brush approach that you are using above, are you implying (or even flatly stating) that ALL US bred dogs are as bad as you seem to say above with the quotes that you offer above?

BTW, carm, just a small note (of nationalism); generally speaking we usually do not include Canadiens as "American" folks (unless you were simply referring to "North Americans" in which case then your reference to "American" would be fine). That *is* what you meant, wasn't it?

BTW2, I think that your person also says that she wants to see a back "WITHOUT ROACH", didn't she? I would certainly agree with that.

Also why not take a look at one of the dams of a litter that your reference person, from Woodside kennels and tell us what you think of her rear angulation - just for the heck of it. 

Looks to me like a now typical way over angulated US GSD for the US show ring. Dogs name is CH Woodside's Madonna. Notice that she is a US champion as well.

I suspect that most folks would not consider a person and kennel in BC, Canada to be an "American" source, but who knows?


----------



## martemchik

So if the judges question the strength of the rear-end how come they still give those dogs points towards championships? Also, when you quoted Sandy Anderson Woodside, she said, "I still see too many..." So she sees more that are not of sound temperament than she would like, but its not ALL of them. I completely agree with you that a change is needed, but to lump all the dogs and breeders into one "THESE LINES ARE CRAP" category is incorrect. There are plenty of working line dogs that have incorrect temperaments for GSDs but excel at Schutzhund because they have over the top prey drives, yet no one on this forum ever lumps all working lines together and calls them prey driven monsters and discredits what working line breeders are doing.


----------



## Castlemaid

> I suspect that most folks would not consider a person and kennel in BC, Canada to be an "American" source, but who knows?


Last I remember from Geography Class, North America includes Canada and Mexico. So Yes, I think that most folks would consider BC part of America, not sure why you would not?


----------



## msvette2u

martemchik said:


> There are plenty of working line dogs that have incorrect temperaments for GSDs but excel at Schutzhund because they have over the top prey drives, *yet no one on this forum ever lumps all working lines together and calls them prey driven monsters and discredits what working line breeders are doing.*


Very good point.


----------



## carmspack

wrong wrong and wrong.

a judge has to make a decision based upon the quality of animals presented to them that particular day. Against a standard they have to make a decision who is closest. Some will pick an animal that may have something that is needed by the community, make a statement - something of value for correction. (rare - but have seen it) 
All breed judges tend to value - clean coming and going and overall balance.
Specialty judges tend to value side-movement.

Your comment about ms Anderson and her seeing more shy dogs and dogs she knows have been trained to accept the inspection - shows me that she is disappointed. We are not talking about doggies on the street or at the park or at the petsmart . These are dogs held back, as one person interviewed said - "the best of the litter"-- put into shows , representing an ideal of the breed, going for those Championships , for promotion and they will be used for breeding. And so the problem is perpetuated , and in ways endorsed . People breed to winners. ANY dog entered into a show should have IDEAL breed specific character and temperament. There is no compromise. Nothing to discuss on that front. 
These are the words taken from a 4 or 5 page set of interviews in a magazine written by and for SHOW dogs . I normally don't buy them but there is was in print almost obscure *this issue: Group 7 Herding dogs : German Shepherd Dogs, Belgian Shepherd -- (which have a lot of health issues as per article)

I read widely - more than one language . 

Yes there are working lines dogs that have incorrect temperaments. 
I don't hold back from commenting on this - here, there, and everywhere. In fact the other day during a phone conversation with a good decoy and breeder , we both came conclusion. A brief history on this decoy. German born. Now Canadian resident. Club decoy. Breeder of working dogs - gsd. When the Berlin wall fell there was a migration of "ost" east to west , so they could enjoy the plenty that was available . Going the other way were young skilled persons who could find work-a-plenty because there was so much that needed to be rebuilt . After years in the former DDR - he travelled again , immersed himself in Czech culture, dogs, and became proficient in the language. So he has seen a lot of dogs and has had years of hands on with many types .

His main idea , as mine, is that many of the sport dogs , just are not able to be lived with in a reasonable way - because their life is from cage to field, cage to field. 
That is not working - not to me . 

If you go to the von Stephanitz book there is a passage on the description of his incorrigible dog who had been left more or less to his own devices - yet with only a nod the dog was compliant. I think we are seeing too much "tricks" molding behaviour in some Skinnerian way - yes from my book "The Shaping of a Behaviourist " by Skinner about Skinner -- rather than training . 
I want that genetic obedience . 
here is the ideal from where it all began 

"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."

~Captain von Stephanitz
Originator of the breed

sadly what are the topics of most forum posts -- shy , nervous, inappropriate aggression, health, hips , health,
and that is what was expressed in that magazine in those articles . I tried to stay on point to the OP's post , which did not address health. Just to show it is not some disgruntled euro- guy -- but recognized by insiders here also.

things have to change.
Carmen 

http://www.


----------



## carmspack

BTW, carm, just a small note (of nationalism); generally speaking we usually do not include Canadiens as "American" folks (unless you were simply referring to "North Americans" in which case then your reference to "American" would be fine). That *is* what you meant, wasn't it?

NO -- the Americas are North , Meso , South .
Canadiens are a hockey team -- arch rivalry with the Maple Leafs (Montreal vs Toronto). 
American and Canadian Champion German Shepherds - Woodside German Shepherds - Aldergrove BC Canada
the lady is exceptional at what she does !!!

I've done well here and there - always with good temperament ---


----------



## codmaster

Castlemaid said:


> Last I remember from Geography Class, North America includes Canada and Mexico. So Yes, I think that *most folks* would consider BC part of America, not sure why you would not?


Castlemaid, 

*"most folks" being Canadians, US citizens or both in your opinion?*

Just for memory sake, here was what I actually said in my post
........just a small note (of nationalism); generally speaking *we* usually do not include Canadiens as "American" folks (unless you were simply referring to "North Americans" in which case then your reference to "American" would be fine)......".

So, let's see if I understand what you are saying -- if someone says "American", you are saying that they would mean a Canadian citizen, a US citizen, and/or a Mexican citizen? 

Are you serious? I really doubt that any Canadian or Mexican citizen would refer to themselves as "Americans". Could be you are right, but I really doubt it. I will have to ask a couple of my Canadian and mexican friends if that is true.

But in any case, why are you so involved in my reference to a Canadian citizen as not in the same group as what most folks are referring to as the US show area? 

Maybe you are including the Canadian show area as the same as the US show area? And evidently you are also including the Mexican show circuits as part of this same area also? Right?

I was under the impression that these three different countries had their own unique GSD organization and their own standards and even their own GSD show circuit and don't the judges for each country have to be approved to judge in each location separately? Are you saying that these are all the same so we can consider all the participants and organizations etc. a single group? Interesting take on things.

And i would assume that you are also in agreement that all/most of the dogs are equally poor in all three separate countries?

All of this simply because I made a distinction between the commonly accepted description of an "American" as being a citizen of the United States of AMERICA and looking at Canadians as citizens of a separate country.

PS Here is the definition I am used to using for "American". There are other less common ones of course, but this is the usual commonly accepted one:
*"of or pertaining to the United States of America or its inhabitants: an American citizen."
*


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## Lucy Dog

Completely off topic to the original point of this thread, but i'm with codmaster on this one. When I think of the term "American", I'm thinking a citizen of the US and that's it.

I don't think the term "American" means a citizen of an American continent - North, Middle, or South (American). 

I may be wrong, but I don't think many Brazilian, Mexican, Canadian, Peruvian, whatever consider themselves as "American".


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## Kaz

So, this forum is capable of clean discussion. I am impressed. 

Lets get one thing down : One cannot go and review every kennel out there, and I am sure there are conscientious breeders in the US who are adhering to the finest standards for GSD's.

I agree I am not an expert, but I am a well informed, educated consumer as are most of you. And I can go on well established and reputable information sources, which include websites for informed data. There is no harm in that.

People go to universities to learn from books, because it is not possible to learn everything from first hand experience.

Its not your dog or my dog nor you or I who are under consideration, but we are discussing the topic in broad strokes. 

So its good to see we are acknowledging some facts. 

One of the most annoying things that can happen in an open forum, are posts like "We have talked about this before, so we can't talk about it now." or "I personally dislike you, so I will trash talk."

We have people like Chelle and Msvette2u who have been trying to draw me in to a confrontation with baloney posts of me and my dog. 

For the record, I am very happy with my dog's growth. I dont over feed him. And he is not from a non-conformal breeding program. 

But when all is said and done, instead of drawing partisan lines along countries (American vs German lines or what ever), maybe as a community we can agree on some basic criteria:

1) Build a standard for testing the effects of sloped backs on GSD health.
2) How can an effective breeding program eliminate health issues?
3) Focus on temperament and ability to be fearless and confident.
4) include above factors in breeding programs, grant grading quotients for breeders who adhere to these set standards.
5) Consider points 1, 2 and 3 for show judging purposes.

Most of us are Americans here, and understandably we are a bit defensive of our country's standards. 

But hey, as mentioned earlier, a trickle becomes a stream, that becomes a mighty river. You have to start some where, even at grass root levels to raise awareness. And if as a community we can have an impact on changing our beloved breed for the better, then it is a win-win situation for all of us.


If any expert can comment on points 1,2 and 3, your opinion will be highly valued.

Thanks,
Kaz.


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## Kaz

And one last point : repeated, loud, insulting posts can not hide the simple fact that one member posted on this thread :

We, the country of the US of A, are spending money on purchasing dogs from foreign bloodlines for our Police and Military work.



DFrost said:


> From a working dog experience, both military and police, I'd say American bred dog, of the calibre needed, are in short supply. It's pretty obvious when law enforcement and the military are spending pretty big dollars, overseas, because the number of dogs needed are not available. I would say the majority of dogs purchased from American vendors are imported. There are, in the past few years, some American vendors that are producing some "homegrown" prospects. They, however are from imported stock. I think it's easy to see the state of the American GSD is dreadful. *I would think Herr M. von Stephanitz is spinning in his grave.
> *
> DFrost


Let us acknowledge facts. 

Let us work together, beyond partisan lines.

Let us contribute, discuss, build consensus and affect decision making in a way which can benefit our beloved breed and our country.

Thank you,
God Bless.

Kaz.


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## Castlemaid

Codmaster, you are right.


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## martemchik

Kaz, police stations purchase dogs from domestic breeders. They might be breeding german bloodlines, but they are American. Military, have their own breeding program that has all sorts of different breeds not just lines.

Your points have been discussed many times. All it has come down to is that there is no perfect system to judge temperament. It has been proven that a sloped back has nothing to do with health, absolutely zero correlation to hip displasia. All it does, is affect the working ability of the dog (it can't run for as long as a straight backed dog).

No one will ever agree to any kind of grading quotient for breeders. Who is to judge a breeding program? Read some of the legislature that has been brought up in the past few years in order to shut down puppy mills. The only thing it will do is shut down good breeders that don't treat their dogs like cattle.

Each one of us on the forum has a different idea of what a GSD should be, the standard isn't exact enough and there is no asking Max what he meant when he wrote it. The flaws of Schutzhund have been discussed hundreds of times on this forum but yet this is still the test of choice in Germany and many in the United States think it's the only way. The problem is, no matter what we come up with, someone will find a way around it, dogs can be trained to do whatever, no matter the amount of fear or hate they have for the activity.


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## Lucy Dog

If only this board had some kind of "search" option to it. Like a way where you can enter a keyword and search old threads for a specific subject. One can only dream.


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> I was under the impression that these three different countries had their own unique GSD organization and their own standards and even their own GSD show circuit and don't the judges for each country have to be approved to judge in each location separately? Are you saying that these are all the same so we can consider all the participants and organizations etc. a single group? Interesting take on things.


Don't Canadian and US breeders use some of the same dogs for breeding?


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## Freestep

Lucy Dog said:


> If only this board had some kind of "search" option to it. Like a way where you can enter a keyword and search old threads for a specific subject. One can only dream.


I find the search function to be helpful with some things, and not so helpful with others. But I do like the idea of lurking on a forum for at least a few weeks before posting. 

New people come in asking the same questions, over and over, old timers get grumpy about beating a dead horse, the new people end up thinking the old timers are a bunch of arrogant elitists, etc. It's been this way since the dawn of internet forums. Kaz, don't take it personally.


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## carmspack

All it does, is affect the working ability of the dog (it can't run for as long as a straight backed dog).

what? it is a working dog required to run -- well , forever if it needed to . 
let me put you off balance in high heels and see how long it takes before you are rubbing your sore back and begging to sit down.

read the Fred Lanting post I have somewhere /

the opinions given were from insiders doing a self-examination . Ms Anderson had many more comments regarding temperament -- including dogs that would rumble (low growl) when the judge looks at them showing inappropriate aggression, young animals that would wet or emotionally collapse when looked at for a length of time , as you would expect for an examination for finer points on conformation. 
This from the american show ring where nothing more is required than filling a space and breathing . That's bad.

american is used in the way that european or asian is used .


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## chelle

Kaz said:


> We have people like Chelle and Msvette2u who have been trying to draw me in to a confrontation with baloney posts of me and my dog. Kaz.


That msvette2u is just a troublemaker. 

I like baloney. Fried! Yum!



Lucy Dog said:


> If only this board had some kind of "search" option to it. Like a way where you can enter a keyword and search old threads for a specific subject. One can only dream.


That would be a super cool function, but why bother? Isn't it much more fun to stir up an old, overdiscussed issue? Ok, ok, I admit guilt there -- of not using the search before I brought up .... neutering.


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## msvette2u

Yeah I have this weird habit of remembering what people posted, like, 100 posts ago. It gets me into trouble *sigh*


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## Kaz

Msvette2u, I wont hold it against you. I guess you were commenting on my previous posts, and it is possible that 2 posts albeit in different lines could have been linked together.

But please let me clarify, I am not crazy to risk the health of my beloved pup with any zany ideas. To give you an idea, today my fiancee and I went out for dinner, and when we got back, we were literally running the last block to get back to Manny.

I did post about size, because like every new dog owner, I want a BIG dog. Why? I dont know... I just think there would be more to cuddle and love.

And as for breeding standards, to give you an idea, as a Director I had 2 engineers who work for me, one from CT and another local to CA who are breeders. Not back yard breeders but championship line breeders. I literally had them with me when I reviewed scores of breeders and found the best possible.

It is possible I may know less about previous posts and the way people feel about certain issues, but my intentions are good. And I do love my dog and the breed very much.

Peace.

And thank you Freestep for your post.


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## carmspack

"

Completely off topic to the original point of this thread, but i'm with codmaster on this one. When I think of the term "American", I'm thinking a citizen of the US and that's it.

I don't think the term "American" means a citizen of an American continent - North, Middle, or South (American). 

I may be wrong, but I don't think many Brazilian, Mexican, Canadian, Peruvian, whatever consider themselves as "American". 


american is a cultural and geographical group , not a national identification. Yes Canada is part of North America as are the United States. 
Mexico is mesoamerica (geographically) and latin america by culture .

If we are talking about american bred show dogs that is a differentiation from european imports or lines . 

Lance of Fran Jo , the founder of "american show lines" was bred to his daughter , a Canadian bred ROM female - Mary Vurma - and that created a new family - many Covy Tucker Hill dogs and Kaleef dogs. 

The lines criss cross the border - one and the same more or less . 

another example - see the name of the dogs dam -
SEL CAN & AM CH Winning Ways Chimo - German Shepherd Dog 
__________________


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## Lucy Dog

Carmen... agreed about both the canadian and US lines being combined into one "american" group. For dogs, specifically GSD's, that theory works.

For actual people and maybe it's my understanding of the term, but I can't see many people from south american countries identifying themselves as "american". Ask someone from Europe (for europe it works with multiple countries) where "americans" are from and I'll bet they won't tell you chile, but they will for someone who lives in "the states".

I guess it's different in the human and german shepherd world regarding the term "american".


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## Hillary_Plog

I would like to clarify some things, so that if a newbie happens to read this, among many other threads similar to it, they are not misinformed by the "mass" opinions.

*1.* A "roach" back is NOT a GENERAL term used for a German Shepherd that has a sloping top line or angulation, or...as of late, all West German Showlines . A "roach" back is ONLY that where a dogs highest point on his back is NOT his withers, rather the center of his spine. 

Many dogs look "roached" when they are stacked because some handlers will push a dog's hind quarters in just a bit to make them look less long (if they are a longer dog). 

Way too many people overuse this term as a generalization for any and all dogs with a sloping top line and it is very much incorrect. The only true way to accurately diagnose a "roach" back is to see the dog in a natural stance or in movement.

*2.* The SV style conformation show has the "dogs just running around in circles looking pretty" not necessarily just to run around in circles looking pretty. The ACTUAL point of this is to test the dog's ENDURANCE and MOVEMENT. If a dog starts to lag or pace or look tired, they are almost always moved back to a lower placing in the class. 

For instance, if a dog is put in first place early on in the show and after about 5 minutes of running starts to pace or show fatigue, etc., even if they have, perhaps, better conformation than the second place dog, the judge may put the first place dog in second (if the second place dog is showing better endurance/movement).

So, those of you that think SV style conformation is just about breeding looks and horrendous roach back, cripples...watch a working class in an SV style show sometime and tell me whether or not those dogs have endurance or the physical ability to run for long periods of time. 

*3.* I can't speak about American show lines, as I have little knowledge about their genetics and haven't been around enough of them. But I can speak for West German Show Lines. Who says they can't run for as long as a straight back dog??????? I'm asking for a TRULY UNBIASED study done on this. Is there one, or is this just the OPINION of working line enthusiasts?

What about the WGSL dogs that are doing K9 police work and getting just as many busts and perp take downs as their import working line counterparts? What about the WGSL dogs that are competing in Schutzhund trials alongside their working line cousins....are they all pooping out, unable to finish all three phases because they have sloped top lines? 

AND, most importantly, what about WGSL dogs that are TRUE working dogs...take mine, for instance. My last WGSL was my mobility service dog. He would be out all day with me walking the streets of Chicago and my university campus. He pulled my wheelchair, opened doors and picked things up for me 12 hours out of the day. Then, on the weekends he would do Schutzhund for several hours a day and on week nights would do AKC obedience. He never fatigued, never had joint or bone issues and would actually LOOK to me to keep going and keep him busy! 

Let me just add one more thing...that might make me unpopular....

*IF* the working line dogs are indeed bred more for their temperament and working ability...then why do we have SO MANY temperament and nerve issues with them as well?????? If they are the upper echelon of the GSD breed, where breeders are creating these GOD'S of superior working ability, then why over the last 13 years have I seen and heard and read about just as many working line dogs leaving the Schutzhund field during a trial, being unable to retrieve a dumbbell, being flighty, spazzy, showing handler aggression, biting children, having dog agression, etc, etc, etc. as I have show lines???? 

Just MHO.


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## carmspack

well the thread was american vs german lines - and someone was defensive about american lines being assessed by some foreigner (quote ) "Let's see, this is from a European person, right? ".
That is why I went to the time and trouble to provide excerpts from lengthy interview articles from INSIDERS, the handlers, breeders, judges , people who have risen to the top of their game in "american" bred GSD , who say the same thing as the article translated from the original in Lithuanian .

A top line should be level and unmoving in motion 
- examples here , static and in motion http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder.html

When the back deviates from the ideal it is not just the back that is effected. Placement of shoulder blade, head carriage , upper arm. Look at comparative anatomy . Look at a hyaena compared to a wolf . 

Temperament most important - yes many sport dogs are extreme to a point of uselessness in every day settings. This has been discussed many times in subjects such as podium dogs and what makes a schutzhund dog etc .

no temperament = no dog 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## martemchik

The problem I had with the excerpt and the statement made by the OP had nothing to do with the country of origin, but the grouping of all the dogs in a single line into one weak-tempered unworkable group. I have no problem admitting there are dogs with issues. It is a breeders stupidity (or arogance) that leads them to showing a dog that would growl at a judge. If a dog does that it should be banned from the ring, and yet some judges will look past it due to the conformation of the dog so they are causing these issues for themselves.

It doesn't help that I've read Kaz's previous posts and remember that he's not the most educated poster, I know he'll get there, but at the time I saw him taking a shot at a line of dogs because he thinks his is so much better. I was just trying to say that there are plenty of good ASL dogs out there, and the forum has a habit of attacking the show line dogs and forgetting that there are GSDs with Malanois temperaments out there getting 290+ on their Schutzhund trials being reveled as the greatest thing since sliced bread and yet no one questions that their temperament is not to standard (and I know both carmen and cliff have spoken out against these dogs). Just because you have some bad eggs in the conformation ring doesn't mean we have to paint the whole line as a failure.


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## Hillary_Plog

carmspack said:


> well the thread was american vs german lines - and someone was defensive about american lines being assessed by some foreigner (quote ) "Let's see, this is from a European person, right? ".
> That is why I went to the time and trouble to provide excerpts from lengthy interview articles from INSIDERS, the handlers, breeders, judges , people who have risen to the top of their game in "american" bred GSD , who say the same thing as the article translated from the original in Lithuanian .
> 
> A top line should be level and unmoving in motion
> - examples here , static and in motion http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder.html
> 
> When the back deviates from the ideal it is not just the back that is effected. Placement of shoulder blade, head carriage , upper arm. Look at comparative anatomy . Look at a hyaena compared to a wolf .
> 
> Temperament most important - yes many sport dogs are extreme to a point of uselessness in every day settings. This has been discussed many times in subjects such as podium dogs and what makes a schutzhund dog etc .
> 
> no temperament = no dog
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Agreed as to the original point of this thread, but like so many other's, "roach" back has been over and inaccurately used in this thread...and last I checked, an American show line has yet to be accused of having a "roach" back. I wanted to clarify.

I'm still wondering if there are any unbiased facts showing that a sloping top line truly affects a dogs ability to run for as long as a straight back? Or that their ability to work is affected. Every single WGSL that I have trained or owned have been stellar athletes. My 5 month old WGSL with a sloping top line can and does have just as much endurance, and runs circles around the 2 year old straight backed working line Labradors in our service dog organization. 

I can't speak for American lines...but it seems that the WGSL and the American show lines get lumped together, and in this thread they have. 

When I speak of temperament, I don't only speak of sport dogs that can't function in every day settings. I'm speaking of the LARGE quantity of working line dogs that run off of Schutzhund fields, or WON'T retrieve a dumbbell, or fall off of a sleeve when a helper drives them, or spook at shadows or, this is the one I love most, aggress their handler doing routine obedience or protection exercises (growling, snapping and biting). 

I hope that when you say, "no temperament = no dog" that you aren't implying that as long as a dog has temperament, even if it's BAD temperament as I have stated above, it's okay, because they aren't wet blanket, couch potatoes American show lines?

I agree whole heartedly that:

no temperament = no dog

I also believe that:

BAD temperament = no dog (even if it is a working line)


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## Freestep

Hillary_Plog said:


> I hope that when you say, "no temperament = no dog" that you aren't implying that as long as a dog has temperament, even if it's BAD temperament as I have stated above, it's okay, because they aren't wet blanket, couch potatoes American show lines?


I'm not Carmen, but I can safely say that's not what she meant.

In fact that statement could be read as either insulting or obtuse, but if you don't know Carmen very well, I'm sure she will forgive you.


----------



## Hillary_Plog

Freestep said:


> I'm not Carmen, but I can safely say that's not what she meant.
> 
> In fact that statement could be read as either insulting or obtuse, but if you don't know Carmen very well, I'm sure she will forgive you.


Insulting or obtuse? I do not know Carmen personally, but from what I have read on the forum she is more than capable of having an intelligent, informed conversation. Just because I question someone's intent or message on a particular line of dogs does not mean that I am either insulting them or that I am obtuse. 

Have you read this thread....? How many insulting or, rather obtuse, blanket statements and generalizations have been made about a line of dogs without regard to anybody else's commitment or education regarding the breed. 

Just because Carmen is a well educated breeder doesn't mean that she isn't capable of having a conversation with me about her intent. I don't believe I was being insulting, and if she believes I was, I am more than willing to offer an apology and will halt all further meaningful conversation. 

*Working line enthusiasts should have to defend and expand upon their opinions just as us show line enthusiasts have had to, without us being called obtuse.* Thanks!


----------



## Freestep

Hillary_Plog said:


> *Working line enthusiasts should have to defend and expand upon their opinions just as us show line enthusiasts have had to, without us being called obtuse.* Thanks!


I didn't call you "obtuse", I said the statement could be read that way.

I don't think anyone should have to defend themselves, but opinions will differ of course.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Welp, as long as we have a free market this is going to be a problem.

For some 'pretty' sells for others extreme 'drives' for sport sell.

Can't seem to settle on a happy middle ground, especially when groups of people are financially and emtionally invested one way or the other.

As such this debate will probably never really end........


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## Hillary_Plog

Freestep said:


> I didn't call you "obtuse", I said the statement could be read that way.
> 
> I don't think anyone should have to defend themselves, but opinions will differ of course.


I said defend and expand upon *their opinions*...I think that is a legitimate request...especially when you are talking about a thread that is based entirely on opinion. 

Semantics.


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## Hillary_Plog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Welp, as long as we have a free market this is going to be a problem.
> 
> For some 'pretty' sells for others extreme 'drives' for sport sell.
> 
> Can't seem to settle on a happy middle ground, especially when groups of people are financially and emtionally invested one way or the other.
> 
> As such this debate will probably never really end........


Agreed.


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## robinhuerta

Alas...this debate is like a never ending game of *Ring around the Rosie*....in the end, we ALL fall down. 
There are no perfect dogs, there are no perfect breeders, there are no perfect trainers, there are no perfect owners........and there is NO perfectly, absolute, correct OPINION. There is no GSD GOD.*


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## robinhuerta

What I've also learned because of threads like this one is:
_*You can't please all of the people even *part of the time*....so you learn to please_ _some people, most of the time...and stop trying to please_ _the others, the rest of the times......_jmo


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## Andaka

robinhuerta said:


> What I've also learned because of threads like this one is:
> _*You can't please all of the people even *part of the time*....so you learn to please_ _some people, most of the time...and stop trying to please_ _the others, the rest of the times......_jmo


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Whiteshepherds

robinhuerta said:


> Alas...this debate is like a never ending game of *Ring around the Rosie*....in the end, we ALL fall down.
> There are no perfect dogs, there are no perfect breeders, there are no perfect trainers, there are no perfect owners........and there is NO perfectly, absolute, correct OPINION. There is no GSD GOD.*


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Kaz

Thank you Carmen for your posts. I find your opinion very lucidly stated and to the point (among others).

I wholly agree, no temperament = no dog.

And Martemchik, I am educated enough. But maybe not as informed about GSD's as some others. There is a difference. Also the reason for my post as clearly stated in 5 posts is not to say "My dog is better". I repeatedly stated : We love these dogs, and lets rise beyond partisan lines and raise awareness for the betterment of the dogs and our community.

Also, thank you to Hillary for clarifying the point about "roach" backs. I was not too sure about what that meant.


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## martemchik

Educated and informed can be used interchangably in the english language. I know you have stated plenty of times about your education level. Don't worry I wasn't saying anything about the degrees you hold. It means nothing to me when I'm discussing dogs. You're not the only one on the forum with an advanced degree so don't take it so personally when someone says you don't know as much about a topic as others.

It's a fun discussion each time it pops up, but there's always either people that aren't as informed or credible who's opinions don't mean as much and then there are those who are very informed and credible but we all know where their allegiences lie (in terms of lines). The problem with dogs is that they are property, they are things, and extremes are not just highly saught after, but also despised. Breeders make more money off of the extreme dog, while the mediocre ones that are probably closer to the breed standard get forgotten and not bred.


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## Freestep

Kaz said:


> I repeatedly stated : We love these dogs, and lets rise beyond partisan lines and raise awareness for the betterment of the dogs and our community.


Yes and that has been repeatedly stated by other people, numerous times, to the point where everybody is sick and tired of the conversation. It never goes anywhere but argument. It's like saying "Let's rise above partisan lines and declare world peace." Of course everyone would agree with that sentiment, but it's a bit complicated trying to put it into practice.

You can learn a lot and some of your questions will be answered just by listening to the forum for a while.


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## PaddyD

robinhuerta said:


> Alas...this debate is like a never ending game of *Ring around the Rosie*....in the end, we ALL fall down.
> There are no perfect dogs, there are no perfect breeders, there are no perfect trainers, there are no perfect owners........and there is NO perfectly, absolute, correct OPINION. There is no GSD GOD.*


Ain't THAT the truth!
Arguing opinions is a fruitless endeavor. Especially because many think their opinions are facts. Oy vey I am as guilty as anyone.


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## Kaz

martemchik said:


> Educated and informed can be used interchangably in the english language.


Nope!

A midwife is informed, a doctor is educated.


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## Emoore

Kaz said:


> Nope!
> 
> A midwife is informed, a doctor is educated.


In order to be certified, a midwife must hold a master's degree in nursing science. Many hold doctorate degrees. Not sure why you think they're not educated.


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## Andaka

Let's get back on the subject.

Daphne -- Moderator


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## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> Breeders make more money off of the extreme dog, while the mediocre ones that are probably closer to the breed standard get forgotten and not bred.


Can you give examples of where a dog bred for extremes is bringing more money than other dogs?


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## martemchik

Whiteshepherds said:


> Can you give examples of where a dog bred for extremes is bringing more money than other dogs?


The extreme prey driven dogs are much more successful in schutzhund and carry a larger price tag. Scores of 290+ are always advertised where as 270s aren't that much. The more "extreme" angulation of the show lines leads them to win more (or at least it used to) so those dogs carry larger price tags. I think cliff started a thread one time about how the perfect GSD would be good at everything, but we don't want that. We want them to excel at ONE thing. An exceptional schutzhund dog could never be a service dog, and an amazing service dog would not get high marks in schutzhund. A GSD was never bred to be the best herder, protector, service dog, ect. But it was bred to be able to do all of those things in one package.

That's all I meant by that statement, and I know that its all a matter of what is expected, but I felt that its a huge reason why a working dog would never win a conformation title, and why a conformation champion won't be scoring 290s in schutzhund trials (although that is probably more likely).


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## Gwenhwyfair

^This.

We humans don't really 'use' dogs for work like we used to (part in due to industrialization and urbanization).

Conformity for the purpose of doing a job well and dependably is good.

The problem is we humans have taken a certain dislike to conformity.

Conformity for the purpose of 'marketing' is not good. You gotta be 'different' in some way to stand out, be it in the market place or to a judge at a show.

Then of course politics enters into the mix, who knows who and which human relationships will yeild the best R.O.I. 

Having said that I think the extremes that we saw not only in dogs, horses too, reached it's climax in the 80's. I'm seeing a trend of awareness now that these extremes cannot go on.....as such I'm noticing both with dogs and horses the extremes are falling out of favor.


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## carmspack

quote I hope that when you say, "no temperament = no dog" that you aren't implying that as long as a dog has temperament, even if it's BAD temperament as I have stated above, it's okay, because they aren't wet blanket, couch potatoes American show lines?

I agree whole heartedly that:

no temperament = no dog

I also believe that:

BAD temperament = no dog (even if it is a working line) 
quoting end quote

should not even be giving this time --- NO means negative, undesirable, lacking -- no temperament = no dog . Without good temperament you have nothing to work with . No dog. Clear?


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## codmaster

martemchik said:


> The extreme prey driven dogs are much more successful in schutzhund and carry a larger price tag. Scores of 290+ are always advertised where as 270s aren't that much. The more "extreme" angulation of the show lines leads them to win more (or at least it used to) so those dogs carry larger price tags. I think cliff started a thread one time about how the perfect GSD would be good at everything, but we don't want that. We want them to excel at ONE thing. *An exceptional schutzhund dog could never be a service dog, and an amazing service dog would not get high marks in schutzhund. A GSD was never bred to be the best herder, protector, service dog, ect. But it was bred to be able to do all of those things in one package.*
> 
> That's all I meant by that statement, and I know that its all a matter of what is expected, but I felt that its a huge reason why a working dog would never win a conformation title, and why a conformation champion won't be scoring 290s in schutzhund trials (although that is probably more likely).


 
Exactly!

Or as someone once said, A GSD is not the BEST at any job, but is SECOND best in almost everything!


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## Hillary_Plog

carmspack said:


> quote I hope that when you say, "no temperament = no dog" that you aren't implying that as long as a dog has temperament, even if it's BAD temperament as I have stated above, it's okay, because they aren't wet blanket, couch potatoes American show lines?
> 
> I agree whole heartedly that:
> 
> no temperament = no dog
> 
> I also believe that:
> 
> BAD temperament = no dog (even if it is a working line)
> quoting end quote
> 
> should not even be giving this time --- NO means negative, undesirable, lacking -- no temperament = no dog . Without good temperament you have nothing to work with . No dog. Clear?


I think there must be a misunderstanding...

I *agreed* with your statement...wholeheartedly. I did not ask for clarification.

I also posed another statement to reflect upon regarding _bad_ temperament...but, I digress...apparently the conversation wasn't meant to be had.

Another day, perhaps.


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## carmspack

sorry , then, I think others got confused also.

Temperament is everything .


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## Kaz




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## chelle

Kaz said:


> History of the change in the german shepherd over the years - YouTube


Interesting...mmmm.... betting none of them hit 100+ lbs.. even soaking wet.


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## codmaster

carmspack said:


> sorry , then, I think others got confused also.
> 
> Temperament is everything .


 
*Not quite!* Good standard GSD temperament is *"required but not sufficient",* as my old philosophy was fond of saying!

To be breed worthy, a GSD needs both good temperament PLUS good conformation (as well as good health!). And of course the genotype required to pass on their good temp., health, AND conformation!


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## Kaz

Ok, I have a historical question : 

Why did people start to breed in the sloped back, smaller size and smaller heads? (Reference to video of dogs compared from 1940's to present).

I personally dont find these features attractive in a dog.


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## Lucy Dog

Kaz said:


> Ok, I have a historical question :
> 
> Why did people start to breed in the sloped back, smaller size and smaller heads? (Reference to video of dogs compared from 1940's to present).
> 
> I personally dont find these features attractive in a dog.


From a common sense standpoint and I may be wrong... the sloped or roached back is strictly for aesthetics. It makes the dog look more graceful in the ring as he/she prances around... kind of like they're floating.

As for a smaller head... I don't think they are. A lot of the the DDR and west german show line dogs have pretty large heads in general. Thick bone too.

As for the actual size... I don't think they are too. German Shepherds are not and never were extra large dogs. Visit an "old fashioned straight back" breeder's website and you might get that idea, but GSD's of today in general have not been bred down in size. If anything, it's the opposite.


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## codmaster

Kaz said:


> Ok, I have a historical question :
> 
> Why did people start to breed in the sloped back, smaller size and smaller heads? (Reference to video of dogs compared from 1940's to present).
> 
> I personally dont find these features attractive in a dog.


 
Because these were the dogs doing most of the winning in the ring.

Just like today the extremely high energy seems to win a lot in the high level ScH competitions 9or so our training Director tells us!).


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## panzerghost

My pup is a straight back white GSD. His father was an american straight back line his mother was imported from Germany (both breed for sheep heading). As great as my dog is I don't think he would be able to make it in military/police work. I have seen many angled back GSDs that had a much better temperament than mine sad to say.


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## Corona

IMO, people focusing so much about the difference between working and show lines is what is hurting the breed. The GSD should be the GSD, with the temperment, working ability, structure, and health all being equally important. Over looking the perfect structure just because the dog has great working ability is just as bad as over looking the working ability for a dog that has the perfect look. If you are actually breeding for the right purpose, which is to better the breed then we should be trying to combine these qualities and not striving for one or the other. Not doing this is why you end up with the dogs that get the over angulation, or temperment problems. It's sad that you have to really do your homework to be able to go out and find a good purebread GSD, because the average person with 2 registered GSD's can breed them. You can't blame people for questioning the American GSD with the poor breeding restrictions the AKC has, but not every German line is perfect either.


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## cliffson1

Give me examples of people breeding perfect structure with working temperament....I'm just curious. It sounds real nice when read, but when I look at the history of the breed and the early dogs that the breed was formulated from....I don't see perfect structure. For a working dog, form has to follow function. If not it is not a working dog. Function does not require the same form in this breed!!!!! But winning in the form ring requires the same type....the equal need premise is flawed and always has been. This is not a beauty breed and should never allow beauty to equal merit. UNLESS the beauty is in the merit!!!


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## Courtney

cliffson1 said:


> Give me examples of people breeding perfect structure with working temperament....I'm just curious. It sounds real nice when read, but when I look at the history of the breed and the early dogs that the breed was formulated from....I don't see perfect structure. For a working dog, form has to follow function. If not it is not a working dog. Function does not require the same form in this breed!!!!! But winning in the form ring requires the same type....the equal need premise is flawed and always has been. This is not a beauty breed and should never allow beauty to equal merit. UNLESS the beauty is in the merit!!!


Cliff, _when_ did the "look" of the showlines come into the picture like my boy (he's west german showlines)? Going back and looking at older pics of GSD I don't see any like him in appearance...so I know somewhere something changed.


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## martemchik

Courtney said:


> Cliff, _when_ did the "look" of the showlines come into the picture like my boy (he's west german showlines)? Going back and looking at older pics of GSD I don't see any like him in appearance...so I know somewhere something changed.


And there you go, everyone jumps on the American Showline for changing the look. But it was the Germans that did it first. And I'm willing to bet it happened right at the time the breed was developed because as soon as the breed was developed, the working dog became the house dog. Dog shows became prevelant and people bred for look rather than working ability.

Look at what the iron curtain did to the breed, a country was split and that caused quite the difference in West/East dogs. When a breed is as popular as this one, and its spread all over not just a continent but the whole world, there are bound to be differences. The same stock isn't used and each country/area develops their own opinions of what is beautiful and what should be bred for. I mean look at this forum, we can't even come to an agreement on what is right, why would we expect anything different from the rest of the world?


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## Courtney

martemchik said:


> And there you go, everyone jumps on the American Showline for changing the look. But it was the Germans that did it first. And I'm willing to bet it happened right at the time the breed was developed because as soon as the breed was developed, the working dog became the house dog. Dog shows became prevelant and people bred for look rather than working ability.
> 
> Look at what the iron curtain did to the breed, a country was split and that caused quite the difference in West/East dogs. When a breed is as popular as this one, and its spread all over not just a continent but the whole world, there are bound to be differences. The same stock isn't used and each country/area develops their own opinions of what is beautiful and what should be bred for. I mean look at this forum, we can't even come to an agreement on what is right, why would we expect anything different from the rest of the world?


Just so everyone knows...I am NOT joining this debate but was honestly curious! LOL


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## martemchik

Courtney said:


> Just so everyone knows...I am NOT joining this debate but was honestly curious! LOL


Haha, understandable, but yes even the German's had their bad day at the show ring. Their dogs were the first to get over angulated, then there was a big change to go back to normal as dogs started coming down with HD more and more, now we realize that the angulation has nothing to do with HD but still it caused them to go back to less angulated and all these false statements about "sloped back dogs have HD" still exist today.


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## msvette2u

I know. People are always amazed to hear that Goldens and Labs are highest for dysplasia. They only think of GSDs because of how they are shaped!

I looked on the OFA database a while back and I could not find one _PUG_ with normal hips. 
And I have a senior dog here now who is a 6lb. Pom-poo mix with some kind of dysplasia. She's an end-of-life/compassion case so it doesn't matter what is wrong but something's wrong back there.


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## robk

cliffson1 said:


> Give me examples of people breeding perfect structure with working temperament....I'm just curious. It sounds real nice when read, but when I look at the history of the breed and the early dogs that the breed was formulated from....I don't see perfect structure. For a working dog, form has to follow function. If not it is not a working dog. Function does not require the same form in this breed!!!!! But winning in the form ring requires the same type....the equal need premise is flawed and always has been. This is not a beauty breed and should never allow beauty to equal merit. UNLESS the beauty is in the merit!!!


I don't know. I think that most Czech line dogs are structural master pieces and seem to be great working dogs as well! However, that's just my humble unimportant opinion. So goes the debate. We all have opinions.


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## cliffson1

I never said anything about American lines....people protest to much...lol, Lance and Canto influences started around the same time....mid sixties. I'm not slamming any line....I'm just saying that "Form follows function", that should be criteria for maintaining any working breed dog. If you lose your function because of WHATEVER, then you are off track....That's all! If a particular line is shown and maintains function then I have no problem with this and applaud it....But if in the quest for your form, you lose the essence of the breed(working), then its not the people who value the function who is at fault! In other words, the form(structure) has to translate into performance to be worthy. Then the opinion of form becomes validated....there are many long time breed people who don't understand this and the breed has suffered in statue, regardless of lines(but because of lines). For a working breed dog; opinions are validated by performance, even in the show ring, for the breed to stay strong. Europe understands that better than America, but in Europe the process became corrupted by money.


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## amaris

Nothing to offer here, still learning from the more experienced but wow i just spent 1.5 hrs reading all 14 pages, tons of info here, thought i'll say thanks.

@ Kaz, i believe you said all new dog owners want big dogs, more to love etc...not true, i'm quite happy and in love with my WGSL pupster, he's not 110lbs and heaven help me, he won't ever be...

Also, regards to the whole straight backed German lines vs angulated American lines, that was the first thing I heard from my neighbour, to quote him more or less " Don't get any american dog, get a german bred one for their straight backs", it's just one of those widely circulated therefore must be true statements that ppl adopt =.=


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## codmaster

Agree with the "Medium" size GSD. Standard says males should be 24" - 26" at the withers. Not 28" or even bigger1 too big!

As far as the back - the GSD back should be LEVEL! esp. in motion!

To me, the often seen roach back of the German lines (some of them!) is equally bad as the often over angulated rear end of some US show lines!

Both of these are severe faults and should be avoided!

BTW a too sharp temperament can be as bad as a shy or overly soft one!

The GSD should be a very balanced dog!


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## cliffson1

@ Codmaster.....:thumbup:


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## onyx'girl

robk said:


> I don't know. I think that most Czech line dogs are structural master pieces and seem to be great working dogs as well! However, that's just my humble unimportant opinion. So goes the debate. We all have opinions.


I agree with you, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'd much rather look at(and watch move/work) a nice Czech or WG WL than the Sieger champions...just my humble unimportant opinion.


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## carmspack

This is not a GSD , but look at the comments and concerns "great care should be taken that no "improvements" be permitted in the breed for show purposes , as in all breeds originally bred for work exhibition breeding has usually resulted in a refining influence which gradually breeds out the sterling qualities of workmanship" etc . 
Dogs In Britain, A Description of All native Breeds and Most Foreign Breeds in Britain by Clifford LB Hubbard, 1948:
At one time there existed many sheep-herding dogs peculiar to Wales but to-day the group is decreased to two or three breeds only. The ancient pure breeds of *Black-and-Tan-Sheepdog* and *Welsh Hillman* are almost extinct, and the is scarcely ever seen working to-day. The two former breeds were probably descendants of the ancient *Covert Hounds or Buck-hounds* which were used about a thousand years ago in Wales and later known as *Welsh Wolf-hounds*; these Hounds were frequently mentioned in, the Welsh Laws of the early tenth century as *Gellgy (Gellgi* in modern Welsh), and had the highest value of all breeds of dogs recognised by the court of King Hywel Dda (Howell the Good).
The type best known in Wales to-day is one mostly descended from the old Black-and-Tan with an infusion of working Collie blood, a breed really common throughout the north and central Welsh counties This breed is frequently entered in the Sheepdog Trials and is renowned for its efficiency, nimbleness of mind and body, its desire to please and its extreme sensitiveness of rebuke. It does not ordinarily work low-to-ground in the showy manner sometimes seen in the work of the working Collies, but is absolutely trustworthy without affectation.
When in the eighteenth century the export of Welsh mutton was one of the principal industries, overland travel was much the cheapest method of sending the sheep out of Wales, and Welsh drovers were very busy on the recognised routes from the mountain grazing lands to the principal English ports with the flocks placed in their charge for sale at the end of their journeys. The drovers would often take with them a half dozen of their Sheepdogs as herders on the narrow roads, guards against highwaymen, and providers of game on the route. The dogs then used would have been the early type of Welsh Sheepdog, one similar to the common breed of Wales to-day but a little higher on the leg and more racily built. These dogs were used to herd pigs and goats as well as sheep across the border so early as the fifteenth century.
Classes for Welsh Sheepdogs are not allotted at dog shows generally and few are exhibited, the breed being purely a working breed. Lately an interest has been taken in the breed with the view of exhibiting it and popularising it as a pet, but great care should be taken that no ‘improvements’ be permitted in the breed for show purposes, as in all breeds originally bred for work exhibition breeding has usually resulted in a refining influence which gradually breeds out the sterling qualities of workmanship. If this should happen to the Welsh Sheepdog it would be a disaster of the first magnitude, as it is an extremely valuable agent of the Welsh farmer. The finest means of exhibiting Welsh Sheepdogs is in their natural medium, the mountain pastures, or the Sheepdog Trials; these were first instituted in Wales in 1873 and came to England in 1876. Advertised Trials attract many of the public, as did the well-known Hyde Park exhibition of Sheepdog skill.








Brown-and-white "Welsh Collie"

when the GSD was created from unifying land race regional herding dogs -- it was for purposes of exhibition - Crystal Palace - 1851


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