# 'Bettering the Breed?'



## Konotashi

A thread on another forum got me to thinking - what exactly does 'bettering the breed' mean? 

We have three separate lines of GSDs - all of which, breeders believe they're making the breed better. I pretty much simplified all of the following statements to kind of make a point - I mean no offense to anyone, but this is how I see a majority of breeders from each line.

ASL breeders breed for conformation, as they interpret it from the American standard, with little to no attention paid to working ability or temperament. 

GSL breeders basically breed for the same thing, but from the German standard, and with a little more emphasis on working ability and temperament. 

WL breeders breed primarily for working ability and temperament over conformation. 

Which of these is right? Who is to decide on what makes the breed better as a whole?


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## martemchik

Which of those is right? Whichever one you believe in and want to support.

Who is to decide? The breeders doing the breeding. Most breeders I know don't look at the "whole breed" and where its going. They have comments on it, but they really don't control where the breed is going. The people producing 20-30 puppies a year don't affect the big picture of millions of GSDs being born every year. Each breeder focuses on their own breeding program and wants to better what they are producing. Many worry about the quality of puppy they are selling and don't want to produce something bad. At the end of the day, when the puppy buyer is happy, everyone is happy.

To try and merge the 3 lines, and figure out which one is better than the other is a pointless debate. To say that someone is interpreting the standard wrong is wrong. That person can just turn around and say that you're interpreting it wrong so it just becomes a circle of everyone being wrong.

There are many reasons why the lines split, and I know the history and I accept why they were split. I have my own biases, but I don't like to trash on people that are against what I think is right, it doesn't get us anywhere but disliking each other.


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## Freestep

I have always interpreted the phrase "bettering the breed" as bringing the breed closer to the written standard. Obviously, all lines of GSD have deviated from the standard somewhat, so there's plenty of room for improvement. And by "improvement", I mean bringing the breed closer to the standard.


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## GsdLoverr729

Freestep said:


> I have always interpreted the phrase "bettering the breed" as bringing the breed closer to the written standard. Obviously, all lines of GSD have deviated from the standard somewhat, so there's plenty of room for improvement. And by "improvement", I mean bringing the breed closer to the standard.


 :thumbup:

I am personally most drawn to WGSLs, particularly SV dogs. This is because they have to meet conformation, work ability and temperament on SOME level to have approved breedings. Lol  Just my two cents


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## Wolfgeist

I strongly believe "bettering the breed" is done on an individual level by each and every breeder - based entirely on what they PERSONALLY believe will better the breed.

To me, bettering the breed means making an overall improvement to the health, conformation, temperament and workability while weeding out genetics faults and genetics diseases. So that the "norm" is a healthier, stronger animal with correct temperament based on breed standards. 

So, by bettering the breed, ideally we would see the average German Shepherd become a huge improvement to the crazy backyard bred ones we are often presented with in the modern world.

So for me - the German Shepherds out of working lines are ideal. (I prefer West German lines, personally. Have a love for DDR and Czech as well, though.) Reputable breeders of working line GSDs focus on health, structure, temperament and workability; focusing on the 'total package' dog.


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## codmaster

Konotashi said:


> A thread on another forum got me to thinking - what exactly does 'bettering the breed' mean?
> 
> We have three separate lines of GSDs - all of which, breeders believe they're making the breed better. I pretty much simplified all of the following statements to kind of make a point - I mean no offense to anyone, but this is how I see a majority of breeders from each line.
> 
> ASL breeders breed for conformation, as they interpret it from the American standard, with little to no attention paid to working ability or temperament.
> 
> GSL breeders basically breed for the same thing, but from the German standard, and with a little more emphasis on working ability and temperament.
> 
> WL breeders breed primarily for working ability and temperament over conformation.
> 
> Which of these is right? Who is to decide on what makes the breed better as a whole?


 
If your generalization is correct (and certainly for any good breeders in any of the three groups it will not be totally) then ALL are wrong!

Each group SHOULD breed for "The Total Dog' - mental , health, and conformation!

All three are required to "Better the Breed"!

FOLLOW THE STANDARD! (The entire standard)


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## martemchik

Again...each breeder has their own interpretation of the standard. So breeding to the standard means a different thing for every single one. None of us can agree on what the standard means and you expect others to do so? This is why when breeding to the standard you have so many different ways of doing it. The standard doesn't have exact numbers, it doesn't have exact measurements, and we don't even have exact ways to measure certain things (like drive). So there exists a pretty broad standard, that can be interpreted in many different ways and so there will be a pretty broad difference in the breed.


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## carmspack

the betterment of the breed will come out of countries that are not SV


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## GsdLoverr729

carmspack said:


> the betterment of the breed will come out of countries that are not SV


Honestly, I think to truly better the breed people would have to look EVERYWHERE. Including dogs who may not have notable pedigrees (but have generally good health/temperament). 
I just used SV as an example because they require working ability, temperament, health and show rating.

Anyways, it's like another member mentioned in a different thread: There are untapped genes all over the world, but there is no-one who recognizes their worthiness due to our focus on titles, show, etc. 
Now, I do LOVE titles because it proves the dog... But hopefully you guys will understand what I mean..

For example: A lot of whites are automatically disqualified from breeding because their color is a fault. BUT some of these dogs have the temperament, ability, health and conformation that should be passed on. 
Just my opinion. I'm not an expert xD


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## Zeeva

I believe that every breeder has an individual vision of the perfect GSD. They use this vision to 'better the breed,' whatever vision that may be...


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## selzer

Konotashi said:


> A thread on another forum got me to thinking - what exactly does 'bettering the breed' mean?
> 
> We have three separate lines of GSDs - all of which, breeders believe they're making the breed better. I pretty much simplified all of the following statements to kind of make a point - I mean no offense to anyone, but this is how I see a majority of breeders from each line.
> 
> ASL breeders breed for conformation, as they interpret it from the American standard, with little to no attention paid to working ability or temperament.
> 
> GSL breeders basically breed for the same thing, but from the German standard, and with a little more emphasis on working ability and temperament.
> 
> WL breeders breed primarily for working ability and temperament over conformation.
> 
> Which of these is right? Who is to decide on what makes the breed better as a whole?


I don't think your analysis is quite on. I know someone with American Show Line dogs that has the herding grand champion. 

The German Show Line people definitely feel they are breeding the whole dog, health, temperament, conformation, working ability. 

And working line dogs also feel they are breeding the whole dog, their dogs often get V-rated which is excellent. Excellent-Select (VA) is usually only 8-15 dogs designated at the seiger show from an entry of hundreds of dogs, which means the vast majority of German show line dogs are rated V or even SG. 

I know that the ASL people really think they are adhering to the standard, and breeding correct temperament. GSL people as well, and WL people think their perception of temperament and working ability is the most correct for the breed.

I think there are owners who are best suited for each type of GSD, and we, the GSD fans really should not support arguments and fighting within the breed. We should definitely provide good examples of our lines, and encourage/help people to choose the right dog for them.


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## Freestep

Wild Wolf said:


> So for me - the German Shepherds out of working lines are ideal. (I prefer West German lines, personally. Have a love for DDR and Czech as well, though.) Reputable breeders of working line GSDs focus on health, structure, temperament and workability; focusing on the 'total package' dog.





GsdLoverr729 said:


> I am personally most drawn to WGSLs, particularly SV dogs. This is because they have to meet conformation, work ability and temperament on SOME level to have approved breedings.


I wonder what ASL people will say to show that their dogs are closest to the standard and the "total package".

Personally, I think the way to go is to provide a base of V-rated working line dogs. And by "working lines", I don't necessarily mean podium dogs. But dogs who posess correct temperament, not hyper-prey-driven crazy. Dogs who have the drive to actually WORK, and stable enough to be safe with any family.

I think (and I'm not a breeder, so I could be wrong) that temperament has more complex heritability than conformation. So temperament would be harder to nail down than looks. Therefore, I would think that starting with a base of good temperament and adding looks to that, would be the way to go.


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## GsdLoverr729

Freestep said:


> I wonder what ASL people will say to show that their dogs are closest to the standard and the "total package".
> 
> Personally, I think the way to go is to provide a base of V-rated working line dogs. And by "working lines", I don't necessarily mean podium dogs. But dogs who posess correct temperament, not hyper-prey-driven crazy. Dogs who have the drive to actually WORK, and stable enough to be safe with any family.
> 
> I think (and I'm not a breeder, so I could be wrong) that temperament has more complex heritability than conformation. So temperament would be harder to nail down than looks. Therefore, I would think that starting with a base of good temperament and adding looks to that, would be the way to go.


 :thumbup:


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## gagsd

Zeeva said:


> I believe that every breeder has an individual vision of the perfect GSD. They use this vision to 'better the breed,' whatever vision that may be...


And there you have it!
I personally laugh a little when I hear that statement..... "bettering the breed."


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## Andaka

Freestep said:


> I wonder what ASL people will say to show that their dogs are closest to the standard and the "total package".
> 
> Personally, I think the way to go is to provide a base of V-rated working line dogs. And by "working lines", I don't necessarily mean podium dogs. But dogs who posess correct temperament, not hyper-prey-driven crazy. Dogs who have the drive to actually WORK, and stable enough to be safe with any family.
> 
> I think (and I'm not a breeder, so I could be wrong) that temperament has more complex heritability than conformation. So temperament would be harder to nail down than looks. Therefore, I would think that starting with a base of good temperament and adding looks to that, would be the way to go.


As an ASL breeder, I have always felt that the only "show home" that mattered was my own. So every pup needed to have sound nerves in order to go out and be a family member for someone else. While I don't paarticipate in Schutzhund, I do AKC obedience, agility, and herding.


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## Whiteshepherds

There are some things you can't control. How and why people breed dogs is one of those things. If a breeder is happy with the dogs they're producing, and the people buying their dogs are happy too, what gives any of us the right to suggest that they change what they're doing?


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## lhczth

I have always looked at breeding as preserving the breed. IMO the idea of "bettering the breed" is arrogant and self-serving and is the reason the breed is in the shape it is in.


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## martemchik

Freestep said:


> I wonder what ASL people will say to show that their dogs are closest to the standard and the "total package".


Just this sentence shows how biased you are towards working lines. You believe they are the dog to have, and the line that matches the standard the best. I'm not sure how long you've owned them or how long you've trained them, but I assure you there is someone with your same qualifications on the ASL line that could ask you the same thing. If hundreds of judges in the AKC think the ASL is the better dog, that's all the ASL people need to show theirs is closer to the standard.

Anytime we have people interpreting the standard there are different ways to go about it. Each person has a differing idea of what a GSD should be. For every reason you give that a working line is a better dog, someone can use that same reason against it being a better dog for a different person.

By the way, this is all coming from someone that owns a working line, loves the working lines, and will always have working lines. I'm all for working lines, but I hate to see the owners of the other lines have to defend themselves, and they never call out the working line people on this forum (because there is way more of them). I've gone to all-breed AKC conformation shows and although there have definitely been people that own ASLs looking at me like "why did you bring that ugly dog here?" there are plenty that also give the working lines the respect they deserve. I could really care less what anyone thinks of my dog, and I don't think anyone else has to defend their choice of line either.


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## Wolfgeist

Freestep said:


> I wonder what ASL people will say to show that their dogs are closest to the standard and the "total package".
> 
> Personally, I think the way to go is to provide a base of V-rated working line dogs. And by "working lines", I don't necessarily mean podium dogs. But dogs who posess correct temperament, not hyper-prey-driven crazy. Dogs who have the drive to actually WORK, and stable enough to be safe with any family.
> 
> I think (and I'm not a breeder, so I could be wrong) that temperament has more complex heritability than conformation. So temperament would be harder to nail down than looks. Therefore, I would think that starting with a base of good temperament and adding looks to that, would be the way to go.


VERY well said!


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## carmspack

Well, historically there have been several interventions needed to pull the breed "back from the brink". Von Stephanitz himself, in the rather dramatic temperament test where dogs ran from the arena just by his entry and loud stern voice. Warnings against size . Temperament . Breed wardens making statements that such and such a male would be desirable in certain combinations to yield a certain result. 
Bettering includes the elimination of dogs known to produce bad hips -- ZW numbers , for instance go beyond linear sire-dam examination by compiling statistics , not on what they are, but on what they are able to produce. 
Bettering by trying to recognize animals with issues which foreshorten life and working lives.

We need to have some bar to reach, some critical eye .
Some things are good, some things are frankly wrong and some things are in such a different zone they don't affect the bigger picture.
When the wall fell and DDR dogs became available we had the opportunity to go better , new input , new slant . When Czech dogs became accessible , another big jump to improve things . 
To better includes to preserve and to conserve .


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## carmspack

"Just this sentence shows how biased you are towards working lines. You believe they are the dog to have, and the line that matches the standard the best. I'm not sure how long you've owned them or how long you've trained them, but I assure you there is someone with your same qualifications on the ASL line that could ask you the same thing. If hundreds of judges in the AKC think the ASL is the better dog, that's all the ASL people need to show theirs is closer to the standard"

then let them be compared against a world-breed standard , not a niche

I've owned them , bred them, handled them. Champions - many, Best in Breed yes , ROM's yes, contributed to the genetics of Select Champion, yes - still have German Shepherd Dog Reviews that go back to the 1970's . Back in the 60's and 70's there were some very decent dogs ! You have the benefit of looking back like this with archival material and you can see the changes to extreme . Same as with the West German working lines. Started off with a very decent balanced dog that has been pinched or bottle necked in the genetics (Canto) and become exaggerated to an extreme. 
They are NOT the same as the were , nor are the the same as the illustrated standard , and not the same in temperament which must be selected for , tested for, weeded out , and appreciated when proper.


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> Just this sentence shows how biased you are towards working lines. You believe they are the dog to have, and the line that matches the standard the best.


Well everyone is "biased", then, or there wouldn't be different bloodlines at all. I'm not saying the working lines, as they are at the moment, best match the standard. As I said, some of them are too prey-driven-crazy, no off switch, low thresholds.

What I am saying is, working dogs are bred more for temperament than looks. Since temperament is harder to "fix" than looks are, you find the dogs with the temperament that best matches the standard--probably dogs that are actually doing real work, not just podium dogs--maybe some of them are even showline dogs--and to that base you add dogs that will improve conformation without bringing in unwanted temperament traits.

As I said, I'm not a breeder, so I am not certain that this is how things would actually work.


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## onyx'girl

lhczth said:


> I have always looked at breeding as preserving the breed. IMO the idea of "bettering the breed" is arrogant and self-serving and is the reason the breed is in the shape it is in.


:thumbup:
Everyone has their own interpretation and their way of bettering may not be what the breed really needs in the way of betterment.


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## Liesje

lhczth said:


> I have always looked at breeding as preserving the breed. IMO the idea of "bettering the breed" is arrogant and self-serving and is the reason the breed is in the shape it is in.


I agree (though I don't breed), it seems "better the breed" has become this catch-phrase. When a breeder says to me that is why they breed, it tells me nothing, especially when some of the specimens being bred are not exactly what I'd consider better.


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## qbchottu

lhczth said:


> I have always looked at breeding as preserving the breed. IMO the idea of "bettering the breed" is arrogant and self-serving and is the reason the breed is in the shape it is in.


Well put! :thumbup:



martemchik said:


> Anytime we have people interpreting the standard there are different ways to go about it. Each person has a differing idea of what a GSD should be. For every reason you give that a working line is a better dog, someone can use that same reason against it being a better dog for a different person.
> 
> By the way, this is all coming from someone that owns a working line, loves the working lines, and will always have working lines. I'm all for working lines, but I hate to see the owners of the other lines have to defend themselves, and they never call out the working line people on this forum (because there is way more of them). I've gone to all-breed AKC conformation shows and although there have definitely been people that own ASLs looking at me like "why did you bring that ugly dog here?" there are plenty that also give the working lines the respect they deserve. I could really care less what anyone thinks of my dog, and I don't think anyone else has to defend their choice of line either.


martemchik: Kudos on your post! I enjoyed reading your views on this matter. It takes chutzpah to defend the other lines in such a WL skewed board. Thank you for your input! Refreshing to hear an open-minded opinion amongst the repetitive, tired diatribes!


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## Blitzkrieg1

From what I understand this breed was concieved to be a working dog. Utility was the number one consideration.
As far as I am concerned "desirable" conformation is only desirable if it enhances the utility of the breed in question. As in improved speed, agility, healthy hips, durability, weather resistence etc. The breed standard for the GSD if I understand the original purpose was to encourage, emphasize and preserve the physical traits commonly found in dogs that were the best in fulfilling their working roles as well as to provide some uniformaty. 

Otherwise whats the point in having a breed standard? I could write up a breed standard demanding GSDS be 120 lbs, 35" tall and have 6 inch long coats etc etc but whats the point? Anyone can do up a standard demanding a heap of random physical traits but if it supports no utility what have you achieved?

IMO the second the breed standard stops contributing to a body structure conducive to superior workability it is either being grossly misinterpreted or its time to throw it out the window as it serves no good purpose. 
The severe angulation or frog legs im sure the list goes on..you see in some show lines detracts from the ability of the dog to even manouver normally much less work. The fact that these extreme interpretations of the standard are allowed in the ring much less earn wins says a lot about how much the breed standard is worth these days.

Bottom line this is a working dog if a breeder is not running a program with an eye to improving workability as their FIRST consideration then they are not improving the breed. As far as I am concerned they arent even breeding GSDs. 
Someone always chimes in "I know such and such breeder that has a champion that could do Schh or herding..". The truth was that the workabilty of these dogs were incidental not the primary reason for their production. A GSD thats a "champion" that has "moderate to no workability" is not a champion GSD. 

Its the same as breeding a racing throughbred without producing a fast horse as your one of your primary goals..does not make much sense does it.


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## martemchik

Absolutely we're all biased! But you have to realize where your biases come from and why you have them. I completely agree with you that temperament should be the main part of the standard, but temperament is very very hard to standardize. I mean, we have all these tests and trials but its still up to the human to make the decision on whether or not to pass on a certain temperament. That is something that is truly up to the trainer/breeder and after spending years training a dog those people are usually too invested to realize certain downfalls. I have read many times on here that a good trainer can cover up a dog's faults.

Also...ASLs are not all frog legged. There are a lot of very good structured ones which actually move much more efficiently than any working line. Although their back end is lower it actually allows them to drive their legs farther and therefore move more efficiently. Anytime you bring up the "extremes" you can always point those out in any line and show how wrong a breeding program went (kind of what freestep mentioned in the too much prey drive comment). It's the reason we look for breeders we want to support, one's we feel are breeding for what is standard (and there is the issue again). So there are many breeders out there breeding great dogs, that live up to the standard, and there are also many that are doing their own thing. You can't stop them, they'll keep doing it because there are always people that believe that is the better dog.

Sadly, I have figured out that for most breeders the market is what causes them to breed. The public wants calmer dogs, they give them calmer dogs. The market wants bigger black and tan saddlebacks, that's what the market will get. Today...the market wants nice dark sables, and that's what the market has been getting.


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## Typhoon

> Its the same as breeding a racing throughbred without producing a fast horse as your one of your primary goals..does not make much sense does it.


Perhaps not. But then again, most people who buy race horses intend to race them.

However, as for myself, while I've owned 5 German Shepherds in my lifetime, I've yet to have a need for any of them to herd a single sheep.


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## codmaster

Typhoon said:


> Perhaps not. But then again, most people who buy race horses intend to race them.
> 
> However, as for myself, while I've owned 5 German Shepherds in my lifetime, *I've yet to have a need for any of them to herd a single sheep.*




*How about a good enough temperament to be a playmate to a toddler? *

*Health good enough to live a long healthy life?*

*The ability and willingness to face a real threat for their family?*


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## Typhoon

> How about a good enough temperament to be a playmate to a toddler?
> 
> Health good enough to live a long healthy life?
> 
> The ability and willingness to face a real threat for their family?


No need to shout...

But, um, that was kind of my point.

Not a one of those things you just listed were in any way integral to the original purpose of the breed. The original purpose of the breed was to herd sheep. They're all important to us now in varying degrees, and it's the varying degrees part that makes for so many heated discussions.

Point is that almost everyone who buys a racehorse buys it to race. But very few people who buy German Shepherds, working lines included, buy them to herd sheep.


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## codmaster

Typhoon said:


> No need to shout...
> 
> But, um, that was kind of my point.
> 
> Not a one of those things you just listed were in any way integral to the original purpose of the breed. The original purpose of the breed was to herd sheep. They're all important to us now in varying degrees, and it's the varying degrees part that makes for so many heated discussions.
> 
> Point is that almost everyone who buys a racehorse buys it to race. But very few people who buy German Shepherds, working lines included, buy them to herd sheep.


THIS WOULD BE SHOUTING! Which my post wasn't.

Many many people buy WL to do something - ScH for example.


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> but temperament is very very hard to standardize.


Which is exactly why temperament should come first, then looks, IMO. I think it will be harder to start with looks and THEN try to breed out unwanted temperament/behavior traits.

But I get your point--not only is it difficult to "fix" genetic temperament, it's difficult for breeders, judges, etc. to all agree on what proper temperament IS. To the SchH enthusiast, it may be one thing; to those breeding for guide dogs, it may be quite another. But one thing Max said was (and I'm paraphrasing here): Sport is simply a temperament test, and should never become an end in itself. And the GSD should remain a WORKING dog.


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## Typhoon

codmaster said:


> Many many people buy WL to do something - ScH for example.


And some may buy them to be guard dogs, or protection dogs, or to sniff out drugs at the airport. 

Fine. 

But none of those activities require exactly the same skills as herding sheep. Which --again -- was my only point.


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## Freestep

Typhoon said:


> The original purpose of the breed was to herd sheep.


If I'm not mistaken, the GSD was bred from sheep-herding dogs, but was a breed meant to work in many different venues: police, military, guide dogs, SAR, etc. as well as herding. Max recognized the versatility of his breed as the old ways of sheepherding were dying out, and that the GSD could perform to serve man in many other ways. So I don't think it's accurate to say that sheepherding was the GSD's original purpose; the breed was meant to be versatile.


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## Typhoon

Freestep said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the GSD was bred from sheep-herding dogs, but was a breed meant to work in many different venues: police, military, guide dogs, SAR, etc. as well as herding.


Well, I could stand to be corrected, but my take has always been a little different. My take is that von Stephanitz created the dog primarily as a herding dog. I can remember reading way back when that it was herding ability first and foremost he was looking for in the creating of the breed. And in fact this is why white is considered a fault even though Hektor Linksrhein's sire --going from memory here -- was white, so the ability to throw white pups is actually to this day in every German Shepherd. But the white fault was simply because it's hard to see a white dog against a flock of white sheep.

But, as the world moved on and toward a more urban and less agrarian society, in later years von Stephanitz, desiring to keep his breed from becoming irrelevant, promoted its use in these other areas.


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## Freestep

Typhoon said:


> But the white fault was simply because it's hard to see a white dog against a flock of white sheep.


Actually, back then it was believed that the white color was linked to a genetic weakness, which we now know not to be true.

I believe that Max looked for the best herding dogs, simply because the best herders had the most drive and temperament, which could easily translate into other types of work. I could be wrong, but I don't think he was looking to make the "ultimate herding dog"... I suppose it may have started that way, but the GSD's versatility quickly showed that it could easily lend itself to other venues of work. That is why SchH was created. As a temperament test, because sheepherding was becoming less needed, and less available.


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## carmspack

Blitzkreig , Ontario even ! good for you. Well said. 
the GSD BREED SPECIFIC characteristics are essential to the fabric of the gsd. Those characteristics were selected for and from native herding dogs that had been at work for hundreds of years . This wasn't play. This was the difference between a man making a decent living , harsh though it was, or scraping by or worse. That was your trial and test . Once again everyone quotes the von Stephanitz "keep my dog a working dog" (loose quote) . In the book he says the downfall will come when the dog becomes a fancy dog .
Typhoon the only sheep you may have are in the fridge . In North America we think of herding in a totally contrary style to the development of the gsd in Europe . Here we think border collie type - there it was the learning the boundaries , becoming a living fence, keep order . Focus on task, reliability, taking instruction from handler , working indepedently . All this , and protection and hunt search drive -- versatility , utility. Not a border collie. Many other breeds are specialists , the gsd is not.


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## Typhoon

Freestep said:


> ... I suppose it may have started that way, but the GSD's versatility quickly showed that it could easily lend itself to other venues of work. That is why SchH was created. As a temperament test, because sheepherding was becoming less needed, and less available.


Well, we're saying the same thing, just with emphasis in different places.

It's been a long, long time though...and one thing I've learned over the years is that it seems there are many more hard opinions than hard facts when it comes to information about this breed.

But I read a book once about the breed and what I remember all these years later is that it was something of a certain Germanic style of herding dog that von Stephanitzof was intent on creating; that in the _creation_ of the breed, herding was the only point.

And it makes more sense to me that he'd set out to create a herding dog, rather than an all-purpose dog. And that then only later when it appeared all his work might be for naught, that he would promote it for other uses.


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## Typhoon

carmspack said:


> Typhoon the only sheep you may have are in the fridge . In North America we think of herding in a totally contrary style to the development of the gsd in Europe...


Actually, I don't know the first thing about herding, and I don't think about it at all.

My only point is that this is a breed that was originally developed for a specific purpose that has over the years been found to have qualities that lend it to many other things.

And that's one of the main reasons we have so many opinions as to what makes the perfect German Shepherd.


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## carmspack

thank you Freestep "To the SchH enthusiast, it may be one thing; to those breeding for guide dogs, it may be quite another. But one thing Max said was (and I'm paraphrasing here): Sport is simply a temperament test, and should never become an end in itself. And the GSD should remain a WORKING dog"

temperament is rock solid stability no matter what it is asked to do -- . Balance. In the late 70's I did have dogs that I contributed to Canine Vision Canada that did graduate and become certified guide dogs. Meanwhile their brothers (same mother) were active, award winning police service dogs for Toronto. Bodo Grafental , brother to Bernd was a dog that produced guide dogs, was the major stud for a breeding program set up. Keeping the balance. That is what is missing with some sport dogs . There are people savvy enough to resist the trend and produce or insist on a balanced , complete, dog that you can live with , when they go shopping for thier next competitive dog.


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## carmspack

Typhoon -But I read a book once about the breed and what I remember all these years later is that it was something of a certain Germanic style of herding dog that von Stephanitzof was intent on creating; that in the _creation_ of the breed, herding was the only point.

And it makes more sense to me that he'd set out to create a herding dog, rather than an all-purpose dog. And that then only later when it appeared all his work might be for naught, that he would promote it for other uses--


the gsd was made from regional herding dogs that had been bred for purpose for hundreds of years. The style that each region relied on was dependant on how stationary or migratory the sheep needed to be to be put to graze. One area might require a dog that was very intense on keeping the sheep within a boundary. You could have two shepherds grazing opposite sides of a lane . You could have a farmer indicate a graze of specific size and area within a cultivated field which was not to be touched. Penalties for damage - no contract next time. 

Or if the area demanded trans humanance - the twice yearly migration from valley to higher mountain range then a different mentality of dog was required.

Even on this forum people come on ... my dog is and then the questions and complaints have to do with flaws in character, flaws in temperament , dogs over board with activity , but lack focus. Who has come here and said oh well my dog is too ... and then mention a cosmetic feature that they want improvement on ---well other than ears --


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## carmspack

Typhoon welcome to the forum by the way -- you said elsewhere "First German Shepherd I ever owned was a white male named Deacon.

I bought him when I was 14 and he was 16 weeks old, and I had Deacon until I was 25. 

I had left him with a friend for a few days and he got out of their yard across town and evidently tried to get home. It's a very long story, but I printed signs and put them up all over town, got some reports that I knew were Deacon, spent the better part of two weeks driving around looking for him, and then one day all reports of him and any trace of him just vanished.

He was 11 years old.

Deacon is to this day a legend in our house. I grew from a kid to a man with Deacon; got married and moved out on my own. And Deacon, he was loyal, he was courageous, he was the best Frisbee dog that ever lived, but he wasn't terribly affectionate. In fact, he never liked to be petted much at all. If you tried to love on him, he'd pretty much just give you a disdainful look, sigh heavily, get up and walk across the room.

So my wife thought he didn't like her all that much, until one day while I was at work, a bill collector came to the door, and made the mistake of raising his voice to her and waving his pointing finger under her nose. And of course I wasn't there, but the way my wife tells it to this day, Deacon came charging around her, barking and snarling; the guy saw her and turned and started running down the walk, then vaulted over the hood of his car just as Deacon lunged forward and bit the seat right out of his britches.


After enough time passed and it was evident Deacon was gone and not coming back, we got another white shepherd. I named him Duke. He turned out not to be much of a dog, however; was constantly getting out of the back yard, and one day ran off and never came back. I don't think we had him more than a year.

But that did teach me something about being a little more careful buying dogs, so after a time we got another shepherd, but this time a black and tan. Now this was in 1980, so there wasn't any Internet and no vocal pros and cons over this line or that line. But I know now that this pup was a West German show line pup. He had a pedigree from the Verein fur der Deutscher Schaferhund all written in German and all full of Schutzund titles -- I didn't of course know at the time they were mandatory to breed in Germany -- and he was one very impressive dog. We named him Stryker, and he was a very good dog. He loved to play soccer with the kids, and became very attached to soccer balls. I'd get him one -- a pretty good one -- and he'd work it until he bit a hole in it, so he could deflate it and carry it around proudly until it got so chewed up and grimy that I'd have to get him another one.

He hated for the kids to go swimming, and would jump back and forth across the front of the diving board to try to keep them from diving in. Also, I had to watch him carefully, because if he ever dropped his soccer ball in the pool, he would sit down closest to where it was on the bottom, and start drinking and not stop. I'm convinced he was trying to drain the pool to get his ball back.

Stryker died at 11 of heartworms, something for which to this day I still blame myself.

This and that happened, and I traveled a lot, and there were some bad financial times, and it wound up being a few years before we got another shepherd. And when we did, it was at a very bad time in our lives. So bad that we bought a dog without thinking, and he turned out again to be not much of a dog. We named him Kaiser. He had all sort and manner of problems, and I used to call him a perfect example of a ruined breed. He was stubborn and obstinate and only had one testicle, and he never cared too much for me. But he did love my wife, and although he wouldn't play ball or Frisbee or do much of anything, he did love her and at the time, that made him a very special dog. 

But as I mentioned Kaiser had all manner of problems, including physical. He died of kidney failure at 7.

My wife missed Kaiser terribly after he died, and she started talking about getting another white. We looked around awhile, finally found a breeder out in the country who had a white pup for sale, and drove out to a place that today I'd call something of a cross between a backyard breeder and a puppy mill.

And it turned out the white pup was pretty timid and small. But the breeder had a sable pup that just took to us right away. So of course we bought him and took him home.

We named him Harley.

And the thing is, yeah, Harley had many of the problems you'd associate with a dog that came from…where he came from. He had allergies; he was timid; he was scared to death of children. I'm sure he would have been a fear-biter given the chance.

But he was also beautiful. And he was whip-smart. He was a great ballplayer and while not quite in Deacon's league, he could catch a pretty mean Frisbee.

He was also the most loving, most gentle-hearted creature I have ever known in my life.

Harley died of cancer at 8 and a half years old about three months ago, and we still miss him terribly.


I travel a lot and even though we were both pretty devastated over Harley's death, my wife doesn't feel safe without a dog here when I'm gone and after all this time, we know now we're German Shepherd people and we'd never even think of getting any other breed of dog.

So that brings us to today. We figured it'd take a long time to find a new dog, but then in a weird combination of events, a pup wound up nearly falling into our laps.

We named him Ranger. Not from a backyard breeder this guy, no. One heavily pedigreed pup.

I'm not so sure it's still not something of a gamble. I don't think anything can guarantee you you'll get a dog that is worry-free.

But I guess that's true of just about anything.

------------- So how important is temperament , and where does it come from


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## selzer

Sheep herding is looked at differently in the US, than say in Germany. Germany is small, and getting to the grazing grounds might mean taking the sheep alongside busy roadways, etc. 

I was at a club meeting a few months ago and we were talking about the differences of the AKC standard and the SV standard. And sheep herding was brought up. It does matter that the original purpose of the breed was a shepherd. To adjust the breed to a dog that is more suited to the work that it currently might perform, is utilitarian, but then is it really the best representative of the breed? 

Frankly, there is no point in side gait for a police dog. A police dog does not need to be built to trot 12 miles without showing any signs of fatigue. But that is exactly what sheep herding dogs need. This breed was created to herd sheep, and guard the sheep, and keep the sheep in and out of different areas. I was informed that the side gait was specifically intended to give the impression of a barrier or fence. 

I am not an ASL person, but I am just giving an example of how their interpretation of the standard, and specifically the conformation of the dog, does actually work toward creating the dog they think is suitable as a working dog. The AKC standard and the SV standard are more similar than different. There is a little difference in the temperament section, but for the most part we should be building the same dog. 

On the other hand, there is really nothing in creation that remains stagnant. If it is, it will eventually die out. Things naturally evolve over years due to use or disuse, differing terrain, climates, nutrition, etc. Perhaps trying to maintain numbers on a sheet could start out with breeding the best to the best, but over time, it may mean breeding lesser quality dogs in order to try and retain a trait, size, etc.

I think the GSD should be athletic. It should have a structure capable of going over many miles. And it should have energy levels that can achieve that if the owners want that. I mean, the dog should be adaptable to its living conditions. If the owners want a dog that will be able to jog 10 miles every day with them, they should be able to build up to that or more without any problems. But I really think that a dog that requires that kind of energy release is not indicative of the best temperament. That is, if a dog is not run 10-12 miles a day, it won't be able to settle down, or will have other behavior issues -- I see that as a problem.

Prey drive is good but if it is so high that the dog cannot be trained to leave cats alone, or kills sheep or chickens, etc, then it is a problem. 

I think that if our dogs did not branch out into service animals, and police/military dogs, then the main job our dogs would have is family companion/pet, and then structure would be designated soley on what is aesthetically pleasing to a group of judges. I think the good news is that having a beautiful side gait and the endurance to trot for hours on end, does not limit their ability to do police/military work or to be service and SAR animals.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I was informed that the side gait was specifically intended to give the impression of a barrier or fence.
> 
> .... I think the good news is that having a beautiful side gait and the endurance to trot for hours on end, does not limit their ability to do police/military work or to be service and SAR animals.


This is really nit-picky, but I understand that the structure needed to sprint, jump, turn quickly, navigate over rough terrain, and clear obstacles is a different structure than that needed to do a flying trot across a flat pasture.

I hadn't thought of the sidegait giving the impression of a fence or barrier to the sheep. I think that is one of the sounder arguments I've heard about the flying trot. Not sure that it would be any more effective, however, than a shorter stride dog--assuming the dog *wants* to keep sheep inside the barrier.


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## carmspack

If you want to see what goes into the selection of a herding dog I suggest you read Boundry Instinct by Ellen Nickelsberg - Nickelsberg's Farm and German Shepherd Herding The Large Flock Herding Dog – Puppy Selection & Foundation Building

side gait? no not at all . Flying trot is not for endurance .
Sheep don't look at the dogs legs - speed across a pasture , gallop. The conformation is what it is to allow reach and drive in balance , for efficiency. A shoulder which opens allows the foreleg to come in to the center of the body . An ideal movement which is efficient is best seen in freshly fallen snow , or wet paws on dry surface. The imprint will be a single line or single tracking .
Because much of the time is repetitive back and forth patrolling the same boundary all day long the confromation is important for endurance, efficiency and to work well in the groove that the motion will create .

The power comes from the assertive command from the dogs character .


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> This is really nit-picky, but I understand that the structure needed to sprint, jump, turn quickly, navigate over rough terrain, and clear obstacles is a different structure than that needed to do a flying trot across a flat pasture.
> 
> I hadn't thought of the sidegait giving the impression of a fence or barrier to the sheep. I think that is one of the sounder arguments I've heard about the flying trot. Not sure that it would be any more effective, however, than a shorter stride dog--assuming the dog *wants* to keep sheep inside the barrier.


What wins in the show ring is not what is the most aesthetically pleasing look to me. I prefer to see a dog trotting with a level top line, and with a stride where the front legs to not fly up over or even level with the elbow. I think that look kind of unnatural. 

They also told me that the German dogs use their hind quarters to propel them while American dogs do not. I am not sure I understood that argument so I just left it out. 

I think what is importance is balance. I think the breed was founded on that too. Max definitely wanted a dog that could be calm and play with children, but when needed could go to town on a bad guy, and could work all day herding sheep, which is significant when it comes to the energy, instinct, and intelligence required. I guess I like a dog that looks pleasing when they trot, but can also spin, jump, climb, move over rough terrain. 

The requirements for sheep herding/guarding should always produce a dog that can be trained for police/military service. If the requirements for police dogs change in coming years to a 25% smaller or larger dog, or anything else, I don't think the GSD should change to accommodate that.


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## phgsd

The sheep don't look at a dog's sidegait...they see a dog's presence. If the dog has power and a strong presence, they will respect it. If the dog moves meekly along the border, the sheep will push and take advantage, regardless of whether the dog has a beautiful flying trot or not. 

Personally - I only want a versatile GSD - a healthy dog with sound nerves and a stable temperament that will work its heart out at anything you ask of it...a dog that will tend sheep all day then do Schh that evening. That type of GSD is not easy to find nowadays and breeders focusing on that versatility are IMO breeding the "true" GSD. Just because most GSD's will never see a sheep doesn't mean that those instincts shouldn't be preserved.


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## selzer

carmspack said:


> If you want to see what goes into the selection of a herding dog I suggest you read Boundry Instinct by Ellen Nickelsberg - Nickelsberg's Farm and German Shepherd Herding The Large Flock Herding Dog – Puppy Selection & Foundation Building
> 
> side gait? no not at all . Flying trot is not for endurance .
> Sheep don't look at the dogs legs - speed across a pasture , gallop. The conformation is what it is to allow reach and drive in balance , for efficiency. A shoulder which opens allows the foreleg to come in to the center of the body . An ideal movement which is efficient is best seen in freshly fallen snow , or wet paws on dry surface. The imprint will be a single line or single tracking .
> Because much of the time is repetitive back and forth patrolling the same boundary all day long the confromation is important for endurance, efficiency and to work well in the groove that the motion will create .
> 
> The power comes from the assertive command from the dogs character .


Carmen, as I said, some ASL breeders told me this at a club meeting. The trot is for endurance. The flying trot, I think is for the show ring. I think they train it. But I am not sure about that. 

What I like about GSDs is that they are a natural dog. You don't have to dock or crop or cut their hair into funny patterns. The dog should move with natural grace and look pleasing to the eye because of its natural beauty. I don't like to see dogs with their heads wrapped around staring into their owner's faces when they are heeling, I find that unnatural. I think the flying trot is unnatural. I am not a fan of the way the GSL dogs are made to pull out, I find that looks unbalanced/unnatural as does the stacks that accentuate the roach back. 

The problem with showing is that the dogs that should win, are the ones that don't stand out for anything. The ones that the instant you see it, you think, "male German Shepherd Dog" and nothing else. Dogs that stand out for their slopes or their drive or their coat or their trot -- dogs that look flashy or extreme -- those dogs should be at the end of the class, not in the front.


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## martemchik

These discussions always become too perfectionist. It's an "in a perfect world" this is what every single breeder would do and this is what every GSD would be. I think I'm too much of a realist to think that every single GSD should be a working dog. In today's world 99% of the GSDs aren't worked, aren't exercised, and don't receive the kind of stimulation a working dog would need. The breed will always be popular, everyone wants their own Rin Tin Tin or the dog that looks like the local K9 officer.

From what I've seen, the working lines are getting more popular, but are still being treated like regular house pets. These dogs aren't getting any of the stimulation they need and are therefore running their households. It's not really a temperament thing, its a not enough exercise and training thing. But if you want to live your lives, thinking that ASLs and GSLs don't have the amount of drive necessary and everyone should have a WL and if you can't handle one then pick another breed, well that will never happen.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Iv seen a lot of statements justifying the changes in this breed such as "Well I dont need my dog to defend me or as a previous poster stated I dont need a herding dog". Im not going to say if you dont need either of these things the GSD isnt for you, but I will repeat what other posters have already stated. The GSD was meant to be a working dog period. It doesnt matter whether its protection, therapy, herding etc etc. The dog was meant to work. 
If you dont want or need a working dog you should look at another breed JMO. 
Any breeder producing these dogs to just be nice family pets is not breeding true GSDs. IMO there should be no difference between show lines and WL. If you want to breed working dogs with an eye to conformation thats fine as long as the conformation support the dogs UTILITY.

ASLs are not all froglegged, I understand that but they are a line that is primarily bred for structure and gait as I understand it. Structure and gait without a working application substantiated by titles or at least actual utility means NOTHING. If the ASL's gait make it a better working dog then why is it not used very often as a working dog? Why are working titles an after thought in an ASL ped not the primary consideration?

Not trying to pick on a specific line just using an example to make a point. It may sound harsh but if you have no utility for a GSD you should probably not be purchasing one.

I make no bones about why I got my first shepherd. There were some break ins in my neighborhood and some shifty characters hanging around. She was a rescue but she had a job right off the bat, keep intruders away from the house and keep the family and property safe. She fulfilled this role well. She was also a great companion, excercise buddy etc. My current girl fulfills those roles and may also do some sport. 

Nothing wrong with wanting a nice pet but if thats all your after then the GSD is not for you imo. If you dont give your dog a job or purpose he/she will find one on their own and you may not like what they come up with.
I also apply the above statement to any working dog. Example: Always wanted a husky but have no utility for one, not interested in mushing so have avoided the breed. All you rescuers out there know how many manic or runaway Husky's end up in the pound when their owners find out their cool looking wolf dog is not a couch potatoe.


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## carmspack

martemchik -- we are talking about soundness of nerves , stability , temperament , not drive, 
which work tests and the show ring does not.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I do wish less people were breeding these dogs and more were buying based on what they wanted a dog to do for them and less how they wanted a dog to look. 
So many misinformed people out there, that are sure their GSD will protect them or guard their property based on the fact that they are simply GSD and nothing else.


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## selzer

I wish fewer people would see police dogs on TV or in public and with zero understanding what it takes to breed, buy, raise, exercise, or train them, and buy one for protection. Then, as an after-thought, or maybe because their puppy is a total nut job, they rush to the internet to learn about this little guy they brought into their home. With luck they get the bug, and learn what they need to know and then some. And then, they put down all the other GSDs out there because what they have is a "real" GSD. And then suddenly the rest of the GSDs out there have no business being alive or being bred. Whatever. I know a LOT of German show line dogs that are K9s. I know American Line dogs that have herding titles. The working line people have put forth the premise that other lines _can't _do the job and have claimed their temperament is not sufficient, not sufficient in nerves or in drive. But it is not necessarily true. But when people have interest in a dog for protection (and what they actually need and would do good with is a dog for a deterrent), they are steered toward working line dogs.

I think that working line dogs can do fine with ordinary people, most of them, just like show lines can do fine as well, most of them. Neither line has a monopoly on temperament or health problems.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I dont have a problem with show dogs being alive or being good pets. I just dont think that breeding for the show ring is in any way bettering the breed. Many breeds make wonderful pets, the GSD can be that but imo needs to be more then that. When you breed and overlook the traits that make this dog a versatile working animal in favour of traits that favor certain structural ethos you are not furthering or improving the GSD.

You are creating an alternate Breed that looks the part but is not in fact a GSD beneath the outer layer. 
Its like taking a Corvette and putting a Cavalier engine in it. Lookes like a vette but is not. The analogy is probably too simple but thats how I see it. 
Thats just my opinion I know there are show dogs out there that have the ability to work and are great pets etc, infact there are probably many such dogs. Thats wonderful but their breedings place MUCH more importance on structure then working ability and do not honor the original purpose or genesis of the breed as I see it.

I personally have a lot to learn about the GSD in all its aspects, but that doesnt stop me from having a strong opinion on what constitutes "bettering the breed". This opinion stands for many other working breeds as well Rotties, Dobes, Huskys take your pick.


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## selzer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I dont have a problem with show dogs being alive or being good pets. I just dont think that breeding for the show ring is in any way bettering the breed. Many breeds make wonderful pets, the GSD can be that but imo needs to be more then that. When you breed and overlook the traits that make this dog a versatile working animal in favour of traits that favor certain structural ethos you are not furthering or improving the GSD.
> 
> You are creating an alternate Breed that looks the part but is not in fact a GSD beneath the outer layer.
> Its like taking a Corvette and putting a Cavalier engine in it. Lookes like a vette but is not. The analogy is probably too simple but thats how I see it.
> Thats just my opinion I know there are show dogs out there that have the ability to work and are great pets etc, infact there are probably many such dogs. Thats wonderful but their breedings place MUCH more importance on structure then working ability and do not honor the original purpose or genesis of the breed as I see it.
> 
> I personally have a lot to learn about the GSD in all its aspects, but that doesnt stop me from having a strong opinion on what constitutes "bettering the breed". This opinion stands for many other working breeds as well Rotties, Dobes, Huskys take your pick.


By the time people can afford a corvette, all they need is a cavalier engine. But I don't give a crap about cars of any sort, they are a necessary evil to get me from here to there. My 2004 Explorer can hold more dogs and crates than my 98 Honda Accord. That's all I need to know. So your analogy really doesn't do anything for me.

The original purpose of GSDs is herding, and most breeders out there have never owned sheep or cattle or ducks. Their original purpose was not schutzhund or police work. Though their founder encouraged police departments to try the dogs, and created the sport of schutzhund to test breeding stock, probably because he recognized that most breeders would not own cattle or sheep, and most breeders are not police officers. I do not think there is only one venue to test breeding stock. I think that people who show their dogs would be well-served to put some other type of title on the dog, but I don't think the titles change the dog nor the animal's ability to produce good puppies in the least.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> And then, they put down all the other GSDs out there because what they have is a "real" GSD. And then suddenly the rest of the GSDs out there have no business being alive or being bred.


I hope no one is getting the impression that their dog "shouldn't be alive" just because it shouldn't be bred. *Most* dogs shouldn't be bred, it is only the cream of the crop that should go forward with their genetics, but I don't see how that means the dog "shouldn't be alive".


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## elisabeth_00117

lhczth said:


> I have always looked at breeding as *preserving the breed*. IMO the idea of "bettering the breed" is arrogant and self-serving and is the reason the breed is in the shape it is in.


This tends to be my thought process when terms like "bettering the breed" are thrown about.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> I hope no one is getting the impression that their dog "shouldn't be alive" just because it shouldn't be bred. *Most* dogs shouldn't be bred, it is only the cream of the crop that should go forward with their genetics, but I don't see how that means the dog "shouldn't be alive".


That is well and good if your dog came from the cream of the crop. But a lot of the dogs out there, a lot of the dogs on this forum came from dogs that are of mixed lines, or untitled parentage, or dogs not bred for their working ability or for their show rating. If sire and dam should never have been bred, then it follows that their dog should not be alive. I don't think that we should encourage everyone to breed their dog, but I think it would be very sad if any of the various lines of GSD cease to be.

In a perfect world the show dogs and the working dogs would be one. But show line people are not going to incorporate working line dogs into their lines, and working line people will not incorporate show lines. So if the two became one, or the three became one, then one or more lines of dog would no longer contribute.


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## selzer

elisabeth_00117 said:


> This tends to be my thought process when terms like "bettering the breed" are thrown about.


For some reason, I keep reading it as "battering the breed."


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## Debbieg

selzer said:


> For some reason, I keep reading it as "battering the breed."



Sue , thanks for the laugh!


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> martemchik -- we are talking about soundness of nerves , stability , temperament , not drive,
> which work tests and the show ring does not.


I know that, but what I'm stating is that the things you talk about are still very subjective. Your idea of temperament is different than someone else's and its all based on experience and what you have learned through spending time with many different GSDs. If you're talking about just having a stable family dog, then I see plenty of that in the GSDs at my club, and although none of them would ever be able to do protection they are extremely stable animals that I would trust with a family over many many working line dogs I have met.

I get it, we don't want dogs to bite people randomly, don't want resource guarding, don't want fearful dogs, don't want a lot of those standard issues we generally hear about on this forum. But I know plenty of ASLs without those issues. I'm saying...they don't have the drive to do protection, but I believe they do have the temperament for it.

I'm not trying to say anything bad about work, and it definitely has a place in this world. But to expect people that don't plan on working their dog, to not buy a GSD because of its working dog history is a joke. 95% of dog owners don't work their dogs, and if you only sold GSDs to people that planned on working them the breed would die off in the blink of an eye. I think that breeders have that choice, and their lines find those homes, but without pet homes a breed just will not survive.

I think its just a different world now, and a different dog owner. Beginning of the 1900s, dog shows were how dog's were proven because the general public likes the look of the dog, not its working ability. My answer to this...have working training more available. The more available that training will be the more people will get into working their dogs and think about getting working dogs. Look at what agility has done for border collies, people got into the sport, saw how good the border collie was, and got border collies in order to excel in that venue. If you can get a schutzhund club, affordable and close, more people would do it. But then again, AKC obedience isn't doing so hot and those clubs are all over the place.


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## Blitzkrieg1

selzer said:


> By the time people can afford a corvette, all they need is a cavalier engine. But I don't give a crap about cars of any sort, they are a necessary evil to get me from here to there. My 2004 Explorer can hold more dogs and crates than my 98 Honda Accord. That's all I need to know. So your analogy really doesn't do anything for me.
> 
> The original purpose of GSDs is herding, and most breeders out there have never owned sheep or cattle or ducks. Their original purpose was not schutzhund or police work. Though their founder encouraged police departments to try the dogs, and created the sport of schutzhund to test breeding stock, probably because he recognized that most breeders would not own cattle or sheep, and most breeders are not police officers. I do not think there is only one venue to test breeding stock. I think that people who show their dogs would be well-served to put some other type of title on the dog, but I don't think the titles change the dog nor the animal's ability to produce good puppies in the least.


 
Already been said: Was created to be a versatile working dog the founders were herding dogs but they were not intended to be exclusivley herding dogs. 

Who said anything about breeders having to be cops, there are many different lines of work these dogs can preform in from guarding the home to therapy work. 
Whether you care about cars or not doesnt change the fundamental analogy. You breed a working dog exclusively for looks and consider the working ability as superfluous or secondary sooner or later you lose that working ability. Working ability is the central and primary purpose for this breed, without that ability they cease to be GSD.

You put a cav engine in a vette you might as wll just buy a cav  cause its no longer a vette in any way that counts.

That being said many here have their SL GSD and enjoy them whole heartedly. Just because I would'nt want a SL dog unless it could work, does not mean you shouldnt enjoy your dog. I think this thread is more about what you would view as bettering the breed in the ideal world.

Ideally I would love both lines to come together and combine working ability with some of the awsome structure you see out there while there are still SL dogs that have decent working ability. Will it ever happen, nope but you can hope.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> But a lot of the dogs out there, a lot of the dogs on this forum came from dogs that are of mixed lines, or untitled parentage, or dogs not bred for their working ability or for their show rating. If sire and dam should never have been bred, then it follows that their dog should not be alive.


Oh, right. I do think I have heard someone say that before, and I thought it an unfortunate twist of logic to have come to that conclusion.

It's not the dog's fault that he was born to unproven, mixed or unknown parents. Once he's born and has people who love him, it's absolutely moot as to whether his sire and dam should have bred or not. He's here, and deserves just as much love and care as the fanciest pedigreed champion. 

A lot of humans shouldn't breed either, for that matter. But it doesn't mean their children are worth less or are any less deserving of love, care, education, opportunities, etc. And educating people about birth control does not mean their children will be worth any less if they are born anyway.

Anyway. Excuse the thread drift, now back to your regular scheduled programming...


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## Debbieg

Freestep said:


> Oh, right. I do think I have heard someone say that before, and I thought it an unfortunate twist of logic to have come to that conclusion.
> 
> It's not the dog's fault that he was born to unproven, mixed or unknown parents. Once he's born and has people who love him, it's absolutely moot as to whether his sire and dam should have bred or not. He's here, and deserves just as much love and care as the fanciest pedigreed champion.
> 
> A lot of humans shouldn't breed either, for that matter. But it doesn't mean their children are worth less or are any less deserving of love, care, education, opportunities, etc. And educating people about birth control does not mean their children will be worth any less if they are born anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway. Excuse the thread drift, now back to your regular scheduled programming...


Thank you! :thumbup:


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## Castlemaid

Freestep said:


> Oh, right. I do think I have heard someone say that before, and I thought it an unfortunate twist of logic to have come to that conclusion.
> 
> It's not the dog's fault that he was born to unproven, mixed or unknown parents. Once he's born and has people who love him, it's absolutely moot as to whether his sire and dam should have bred or not. He's here, and deserves just as much love and care as the fanciest pedigreed champion.
> 
> A lot of humans shouldn't breed either, for that matter. But it doesn't mean their children are worth less or are any less deserving of love, care, education, opportunities, etc. And educating people about birth control does not mean their children will be worth any less if they are born anyway.
> 
> Anyway. Excuse the thread drift, now back to your regular scheduled programming...


Thank you!!!


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## codmaster

carmspack said:


> martemchik -- we are talking about soundness of nerves , stability , temperament , not drive,
> which work tests and the show ring does not.


 
Actually the show ring and the general atmosphere at a big multibreed/obedienca/rally show does in fact offer a reasonable test of a dogs nreves.

esp. if they have never been in the atmosphere before.


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## dogfaeries

codmaster said:


> Actually the show ring and the general atmosphere at a big multibreed/obedienca/rally show does in fact offer a reasonable test of a dogs nreves.
> 
> esp. if they have never been in the atmosphere before.




LOL, a big dog show can frazzle _my_ nerves at times, and I have a pretty good temperament.


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## codmaster

dogfaeries said:


> LOL, a big dog show can frazzle _my_ nerves at times, and I have a pretty good temperament.


Me too!

But were WE bred to work?


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## martemchik

codmaster said:


> Actually the show ring and the general atmosphere at a big multibreed/obedienca/rally show does in fact offer a reasonable test of a dogs nreves.
> 
> esp. if they have never been in the atmosphere before.


And there you go...for each person proving the temperament is different. Some people will accept that a dog that goes through a bunch of shows and gets its championship has proven its temperament, some will accept that a UD or a UDX is a good example of a proven temperament, while others stick to their guns and will believe that a dog needs to be Schutzhund titled to prove its temperament. This becomes not a question of what is good temperament, but why a certain test is considered better than another? I'll give Schutzhund its tradition, its foundation by the founder of the breed, but times change, and people find other ways to prove acceptable temperament.

I can find an argument for and against every test a dog goes through in Schutzhund, the show ring, an obedience ring, and any other way someone wants to prove their dog.

In a perfect world, we would have a well tempered, strong driven dog, that works like a WL and looks like a SL. But again...market won't allow it. Working line people shun the SL, SL people can't have a WL because it will never come close to competing in what they're interested in. The core problem is the things we do with our dogs. The way the separate rings and sports are set up it causes both camps to look for what they want, and they don't want mediocre and in the middle. They want exceptional.


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## codmaster

martemchik said:


> And there you go...for each person proving the temperament is different. Some people will accept that a dog that goes through a bunch of shows and gets its championship has proven its temperament, some will accept that a UD or a UDX is a good example of a proven temperament, while others stick to their guns and will believe that a dog needs to be Schutzhund titled to prove its temperament. This becomes not a question of what is good temperament, but why a certain test is considered better than another? I'll give Schutzhund its tradition, its foundation by the founder of the breed, but times change, and people find other ways to prove acceptable temperament.
> 
> I can find an argument for and against every test a dog goes through in Schutzhund, the show ring, an obedience ring, and any other way someone wants to prove their dog.
> 
> In a perfect world, we would have a well tempered, strong driven dog, that works like a WL and looks like a SL. But again...market won't allow it. Working line people shun the SL, SL people can't have a WL because it will never come close to competing in what they're interested in. The core problem is the things we do with our dogs. The way the separate rings and sports are set up it causes both camps to look for what they want, and they don't want mediocre and in the middle. They want exceptional.


Very true! different folks like different things in a GSD. It is the BREED that can do most any job not any individual dog neccesarily.

When breeders (and owners) put TOO much emphasis on any one factor the breed suffers.

BTW, although i do train my US SL male in ScH I certainly don't believe that because a dog gets a ScH title that makes them suitable for breeding by any means - I have seen a number of titled dogs that I would never believe should be bred (esp. to better the breed"). I suspect that a good trainer could get totally unsuitable tempwermented dogds to pass a ScH test. Not to mention the conformance to the GSD physical standard of course.


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> Actually the show ring and the general atmosphere at a big multibreed/obedience/rally show does in fact offer a reasonable test of a dogs nreves.


Not sure I agree with this totally. Those environments are very controlled, so I think you're seeing more training rather than what might be a dogs natural response under other circumstances. 
I'm not knocking the accomplishments and I think a lot of those dogs do have good nerves, but I think you get a better reading on a dogs nerves by observing them in everyday life where things happen a little more spontaneously.


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## carmspack

' I'm saying...they don't have the drive to do protection, but I believe they do have the temperament for it.

and I am saying they do NOT have the temperament for it -- they are TOO SOFT . A dog that is too soft folds when asked to do the simplest of tasks . Pressure. 

"and its all based on experience and what you have learned through spending time with many different GSDs."

holy cow , how is that a bad thing. Exactly , experience spending time with MANY different GSDS. Handling them in shows, getting people excited about obedience trials, going through the motions of getting a judges licence -- 

At outdoor shows I've seen dogs go bug eyed because the little decorative tabs demarking the rope of the ring are fluttering. Dogs that tuck tail when the judge approaches and happens to wear a hat . Indoor show , someone gets up and scrapes the chair on the floor and makes a squeal noise and the dog wants to jump out of the ring . 

Yes I've gone to championship shows, schutzhund trials (and was critical of less than good performance) SV shows, specialty shows, all breed shows, every type of obedience trial imaginable from both sides of the ring , and helped or referred "pets" with problems to get them sorted out as best as can be. I've also been a person who was sent imported dogs (gsl) to socialize them . 



the dogs are too soft - and that is not a GSD .


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## dogfaeries

Whiteshepherds said:


> Not sure I agree with this totally. Those environments are very controlled, so I think you're seeing more training rather than what might be a dogs natural response under other circumstances.


I was thinking more of the chaos outside the ring, not actually being shown in the ring. 

Narrow aisles crammed with dogs, handlers and spectators. Trying to navigate around not only the dogs and people, but wheelchairs, strollers, scooters, dollies stacked high with crates. People knocking over chairs. People running. A loose dog. Children. And the noise. Gads. I'm worn out and practically deaf by the time the weekend is over. 

My dogs are expected to take it all in stride. If they can't deal with that little bit of craziness, then they have no business in the ring. And I've seen dogs of all breeds not handle it well. 

(not that this has much to do with the original subject - just commenting on this one specific thing)


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## martemchik

I haven't seen any of the things you talk about. I train at an outdoor GSD club, we have obedience trials outdoors, the dogs are titled indoors as well (that's the most popular trial out there) and I've never once seen a dog run out of the ring. But I guess you've seen enough dogs to make you believe every single one coming out of X line does that, therefore they are all crap.

Carmen, I really respect your experience and knowledge, but you're basing your opinions about dogs that are in the show ring based on what you've seen the amounts of times you've gone to a show. If that is your experience with those dogs, then I'm sorry, there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but I've never seen any of the things you talk about. In 2 years of trialing, I've never once seen a GSD run out of any ring, get freaked out by a flag, or jump after hearing a noise. I've actually seen more problems coming out of working lines, with too much aggression, and too much fear.

You see great Schutzhund dogs every time you train/trial. But how about the thousands of other WL that never see a Schutzhund field. Do you think those dogs don't have issues? You see the cream of the crop, the people that care a lot about what they do and so they make sure to get amazing dogs from people like yourself who breed amazing animals. You deal with people that generally know what they're getting into, what they want out of a dog, and how they are going to maximize that dog's potential. What about the other dogs that go to people that don't know what they're doing? That don't want to do all that? The ones that after they have an issue are on here asking questions.

To lump all dogs that go into a show ring as soft is just plain wrong. You might have the right idea, but you're basing it off of pre-existing experiences with other dogs. That's like me seeing a crazy, prey driven, fearful, aggressive sable, and then going around saying every single one is just like that one. I won't argue with you that as a whole show lines are softer but there are also fine examples of temperament in that ring just as there are horrible examples of temperament on the working side.

One of my teammates for this year's Wisconsin State Fair team obedience competition was a champion in the show ring...another one was a Schutzhund II trained dog that will be going for III this year. Good dogs come in all shapes and sizes.


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## codmaster

Whiteshepherds said:


> Not sure I agree with this totally. Those environments are very controlled, so I think you're seeing more training rather than what might be a dogs natural response under other circumstances.
> I'm not knocking the accomplishments and I think a lot of those dogs do have good nerves, but I think you get a better reading on a dogs nerves by observing them in everyday life where things happen a little more spontaneously.


 
Do you think that a ScH or even a PPD dog is showing just their "Natural Response"? or maybe need just a bit of "Training" to do what they are supposed to do? How about a herding GSD - just Natural Response or training too?

Ever train a tracking dog? Yes they need the genes to do it BUT also a GREAT deal of training to do it.

ALL of these "jobs" require a great deal of training!

Have you ever taken an untrained dog to a big indoor dog show? Try it sometime and see what a lot of dogs reaction is without any training.


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## selzer

codmaster said:


> Do you think that a ScH or even a PPD dog is showing just their "Natural Response"? or maybe need just a bit of "Training" to do what they are supposed to do? How about a herding GSD - just Natural Response or training too?
> 
> Ever train a tracking dog? Yes they need the genes to do it BUT also a GREAT deal of training to do it.
> 
> ALL of these "jobs" require a great deal of training!
> 
> Have you ever taken an untrained dog to a big indoor dog show? Try it sometime and see what a lot of dogs reaction is without any training.


There are tricks to most things in life. I think a lot of pups are conditioned in the litter to show drive etc, by being played with and encouraged with some types of toys, etc. A show-line person is unlikely to do the same things with a litter that working lines will do. 

Consider the ole berry check. If you have a stranger run his hands onto your dogs privates at a show for the first time when he is two, he may do as Rushie did and tuck his tail up. But hard core show people take their dogs out weekly and have judges go over them, as though they are in the ring from about 8 weeks of age. That dog isn't going to hiccup over the berry check. The dog with the tucked tail may not be any worse in temperament overall. 

A lot of people take their dogs to matches. Matches are fun and cheap and can get a dog used to the dog - show environment. And then you have people like me who don't have the time and money to go to matches and goes for title legs on the dog's first show experience. A dog with decent temperament should be able to manage it ok, which means without barking, showing fear, reacting to other dogs or people, and they should be able to get the job done in the ring too. But they might be a lot more relaxed if they were conditioned to do this from early on. 

People training police dogs condition their dogs as puppies in some ways, people wanting to do schutzhund do likewise.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> There are tricks to most things in life. I think a lot of pups are conditioned in the litter to show drive etc, by being played with and encouraged with some types of toys, etc. A show-line person is unlikely to do the same things with a litter that working lines will do.
> 
> Consider the ole berry check. If you have a stranger run his hands onto your dogs privates at a show for the first time when he is two, he may do as Rushie did and tuck his tail up. But hard core show people take their dogs out weekly and have judges go over them, as though they are in the ring from about 8 weeks of age. That dog isn't going to hiccup over the berry check. The dog with the tucked tail may not be any worse in temperament overall.
> 
> A lot of people take their dogs to matches. Matches are fun and cheap and can get a dog used to the dog - show environment. And then you have people like me who don't have the time and money to go to matches and *goes for title legs on the dog's first show experience.* A dog with decent temperament should be able to manage it ok, which means without barking, showing fear, reacting to other dogs or people, and they should be able to get the job done in the ring too. But they might be a lot more relaxed if they were conditioned to do this from early on.
> 
> People training police dogs condition their dogs as puppies in some ways, people wanting to do schutzhund do likewise.


But haven't you TRAINED the dog before you "go for title legs"? BTW, what is the difference between a match (which you do) and a show (which I guess from your post that you cannot afford or don't have time for)?

How do you "go for a title legs" without going to shows? - once you go to one wouldn't even your dogs be getting used (Trained?) to the experience?


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## JakodaCD OA

not sue here, but cod I think you have it backwards, she said



> And then you have people like me who don't have the time and money to go to matches and *goes for title legs on the dog's first show experience.*


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## Castlemaid

> People training police dogs condition their dogs as puppies in some ways, people wanting to do schutzhund do likewise.


Yes, but as others are saying, you still NEED the genetic temperament in the dog to do the work. Because if all it took was conditioning, then why stick with German lines bred specifically for work for SchH and Law enforcement? Why not get any puppy and just condition it for work? 

Because you CAN'T make a fearful, low drive dog into a strong, high drive dog. 

It's not the same as getting a dog used to handling. You can get ANY dog used to handling, but you can't get any dog to work all day and not give up, or to show tenacity and courage in a fight - that they have to have in them.


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## martemchik

I think the discussion is now moved onto the extremes of each line. I think the majority of all lines, especially the ones that come from good, experienced breeders, would do just fine in most situations. There are probably more ASL and GSL that would back down or just not take the whipping in Schutzhund, but there are plenty that wouldn't. But this is also something that could be trained if you really want it to...I've heard of plenty of dogs being trained to accept gunshots (including WL).

Maybe codmaster could tell us about his experience in teaching his ASL Schutzhund. I'm going to guess its more difficult, and it might not look as cool or quick as when a WL goes through it, and he might not have the next world champion on his hands, but I'm guessing the dog is still doing it and codmaster is enjoying the training.


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## carmspack

nope - and if you don't better it in the genes you are not bettering the breed , does not matter what breed or what function


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## juliejujubean

Wild Wolf said:


> I strongly believe "bettering the breed" is done on an individual level by each and every breeder - based entirely on what they PERSONALLY believe will better the breed.
> 
> To me, bettering the breed means making an overall improvement to the health, conformation, temperament and workability while weeding out genetics faults and genetics diseases. So that the "norm" is a healthier, stronger animal with correct temperament based on breed standards.
> 
> So, by bettering the breed, ideally we would see the average German Shepherd become a huge improvement to the crazy backyard bred ones we are often presented with in the modern world.
> 
> So for me - the German Shepherds out of working lines are ideal. (I prefer West German lines, personally. Have a love for DDR and Czech as well, though.) Reputable breeders of working line GSDs focus on health, structure, temperament and workability; focusing on the 'total package' dog.


i could not have said it better myself.


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> In a perfect world, we would have a well tempered, strong driven dog, that works like a WL and looks like a SL. But again...market won't allow it. Working line people shun the SL, SL people can't have a WL because it will never come close to competing in what they're interested in.


I think it *can*, but as you said, it's largely the market that dictates... and that is unfortunate.

However, I think things can change. Things can always change. Personally, I don't know if I'd want a dog that works like an WL and looks like an SL--I would like to see good-working dogs of proper temperament and excellent (not extreme) structure in every color, and I think that can be acheived.

There will always be demand for soft, pretty pets, but I think there will always be soft pretty pets--not every pup in every litter is destined for titles, work, and breeding. If we turn things around and focus on *temperament* first, even the pet dogs will be exceptional pets. Not the shy, fearful, reactive nervebags we see so many of today.

Personally, I think all lines of GSD are beautiful as long as they aren't as extreme as hock-walking ASLs or roach-backed GSLs. Of course the WL dogs have their conformational flaws, though since they aren't bred as much for appearance, I don't see much structural extreme in those lines, unless you want to count the heavy-boned, mastiff-headed type (which I would argue is no longer working line if being bred for that look).


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## Freestep

dogfaeries said:


> Narrow aisles crammed with dogs, handlers and spectators. Trying to navigate around not only the dogs and people, but wheelchairs, strollers, scooters, dollies stacked high with crates. People knocking over chairs. People running. A loose dog. Children. And the noise. Gads. I'm worn out and practically deaf by the time the weekend is over.
> 
> My dogs are expected to take it all in stride. If they can't deal with that little bit of craziness, then they have no business in the ring. And I've seen dogs of all breeds not handle it well.


Yep, and let's not forget all the little unintentional "temperament tests" that can occur at dog shows. I actually had someone open an umbrella in my puppy's face at her first show. She startled, but recovered quickly and wanted to investigate. I was pretty pleased with that. 

It's a fairly chaotic environment and not all dogs can handle it well. Not saying that conformation showing should be the be-all and end-all to uncover and test temperament, but it is one of many, sometimes the first "filter" to catch weaknesses.


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> *In 2 years of trialing,* I've never once seen a GSD run out of any ring, get freaked out by a flag, or jump after hearing a noise.


:rofl:

When you've had 30 years of such experience and still haven't seen a dog fail, you might have a point to make.


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## gagsd

I have been to indoor shows with 2000 dogs and their people all under one roof. I do indeed believe that for any owner/handler with a lick of sense, it is a test of a dogs nerves. And yes, nerve strength is very important and lacking in many GSDs.
However, solid nerve is not the only thing that makes a "breed quality" German Shepherd.


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## carmspack

If we turn things around and focus on *temperament* first, even the pet dogs will be exceptional pets. Not the shy, fearful, reactive nervebags we see so many of today.

funny thing about shows -- for years we wanted to institute a temperament test to be available , part of the annual German Shepherd Dog Club of Canada's National conformation show at which the Grand Victor, Grand Victrix are crowned for show . First there was resistance. Finally got it installed. First show , I believe there were 3 or 4 dogs that passed the test !!!! One was mine, the other was Linda Shaw's (my breeding) . The test was very considerate , in line with ATT requirements, not at all over the top or difficult. Man approaching wearing hat , flashing open coat, umbrella popping open, noise , movement etc. 

To have that Temperament Test certificate annexed on to a Select Champion placement would have been icing on the cake. The first year there was a fairly good turn out . You know the outcome . The next year people did not dare -- now I don't know if they still conduct the Temperament Test. The Nationals will be on in the next few weeks (mid Sept) . Entries will be from Canada , but mostly from the USA , these dogs are seasoned show animals , the tops in that particular endeavour.

I had an American Temperament Test judge and his young son stay at my place for a week . He was also a Park Ranger , here to breed to my male Kilo so that he could get his replacement working dog, which he did and then the rest went into US law enforcment. When he was here he ran tests over all the dogs I had here at the time.

"solid nerve is not the only thing that makes a "breed quality" German Shepherd." No. But without it you DO NOT have a breed quality GSD. Plus it is the part that has the greatest impact on the dynamics living with that animal. 
No one comes on here complaining , my dog is to straight in the stifle , oh my, whatever shall I do.
It is about the temperament , the sanity, the stability, the ability to adapt , cope , be solid.

and ... 2 years ? be a student first 
"When you've had 30 years of such experience and still haven't seen a dog fail, you might have a point to make."

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## martemchik

Freestep said:


> :rofl:
> 
> When you've had 30 years of such experience and still haven't seen a dog fail, you might have a point to make.


Oh wow you're now a better dog person than me because you're old...thanks for laughing. I guess I should give up on owning dogs at this point because I've only had 2 years of experience. Man all of you are so much smarter and better then the rest of us that haven't been trialing a long time.

And...you're the reason dog sports are dying. Its people like you that have such a warm and fuzzy way of welcoming new comers that we just can't wait to go to our next show and deal with that "holier than thou" I've done this for decades attitude.

It has nothing to do with dogs failing, I've seen plenty of dogs NQ, I have never seen a GSD...no matter what line, jump out of a ring, jump from hearing a noise, get all freaked out by a flag in the wind, and any of the other things that someone can think of to make a dog look like it is weak nerved. And even if I had seen one do that, I would know that its THAT DOG not the whole LINE of dogs it comes from. I train with pretty much all ASL dogs, and do some of them have quirks? Absolutely, but so do plenty of WL dogs I see. At least the ASL quirks seem to not be a danger to society, every time I see a WL quirk, its usually lunging at another dog and barking its head off, or pretty much crawling on the ground because it can't stand to be on a training field with other dogs/humans.


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> Oh wow you're now a better dog person than me because you're old...thanks for laughing. I guess I should give up on owning dogs at this point because I've only had 2 years of experience. Man all of you are so much smarter and better then the rest of us that haven't been trialing a long time.
> 
> And...you're the reason dog sports are dying. Its people like you that have such a warm and fuzzy way of welcoming new comers that we just can't wait to go to our next show and deal with that "holier than thou" I've done this for decades attitude.




You're missing the point. Stay in the game and you will continue to learn.

You were dissing Carmen, who has decades more experience than you do, saying that in the whole *two years* you've been trialing, you haven't seen what she sees. Well, of course you haven't. Two years is like 5 minutes in the dog world, and you're arguing with someone who has been in it 30, 40 years? If this were a scientific study, you couldn't draw any meaningful conclusions from your experience due to small sample size. You know a lot more than someone who has been in it 0 years, but still not enough to assume you've seen it all, and certainly not enough to be arguing with someone like Carmen.

Keep trialing, keep learning, and in a few decades, you too will look back and realize how much you didn't know, and you'll still be learning. Learning is a lifelong process. I'm no expert, I have a ton to learn, so I listen to folks who have been in the game longer than I have. I thought I knew it all two years in--that is the stage where you have just enough knowledge to think you know everything.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> funny thing about shows -- for years we wanted to institute a temperament test to be available , part of the annual German Shepherd Dog Club of Canada's National conformation show at which the Grand Victor, Grand Victrix are crowned for show . First there was resistance. Finally got it installed. First show , I believe there were 3 or 4 dogs that passed the test !!!! One was mine, the other was Linda Shaw's (my breeding) . The test was very considerate , in line with ATT requirements, not at all over the top or difficult. Man approaching wearing hat , flashing open coat, umbrella popping open, noise , movement etc.
> CARMSPACK.com


This I'll give you, we have this test at our shows and the conformation people don't do it. Part of it might be they believe their dogs won't pass, part of it might be that they don't want to put their dog through "unnecessary stress" or just pay money for it. The ASL obedience dogs, some pass, some fail. I have to admit that close to 50% fail. They always get hung up on some sort of stupid part. Like the walking over a tarp or a grate. It's interesting because although you can probably teach a dog to walk over those things, why would you want to when a strong set of nerves would just allow the dog to naturally do these things without handler intervention.

It would be nice to have a simple test like this mandated for show dogs, but like Carmen pointed out, unless the AKC says that certificate is necessary the people just won't do it. They don't want to show anyone that their dog might be lacking in something like that.


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## gagsd

martemchik said:


> ..... Like the walking over a tarp or a grate. It's interesting because although you can probably teach a dog to walk over those things, why would you want to when a strong set of nerves would just allow the dog to naturally do these things without handler intervention.
> .


One of mine started across the tarp, paused, got the gleam in his eye, picked it up and started to run circles around me trying to pull it out from under my feet. Silly dog.


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## qbchottu

Freestep: Herein lies the problem. Carmen is very knowledgeable and experienced. No denying that. But her bias is very obvious and prominent in every one of her posts. She is very well-learned, but she is not infallible. None of us are. I don't agree with the peanut gallery's repetitive, obvious attacks against SL. Carmen has an agenda, as we all do. It coincides with the majority on this board so we get these same type of threads over and over where we argue the same points over and over. WL is king here, no denying that. SL are forced into a corner where we have to constantly defend our dogs and our choices. Interesting how these discussions always end up with the WL people patting themselves on the back while dragging SL through the mud. 

I'm not interested in getting into this type of self-congratulatory discussion where WL is king and can do no wrong, while my "roach-backed, soft, hock walkers" are denigrated with no mercy. This board is NOT an authority on SL and not somewhere where I learn anything about SL. This board is mostly heavily WL people spouting the same thing repeatedly when they come across one of these "better the breed"rofl threads. The unfortunate outcome is that those that have never experienced SL will take a so called "expert's" opinion as ironclad gospel. It's so sad. If someone is biased against WL, we tell them to go to a club, trial, and training to see them work. We encourage them form their own opinions. Encourage them to meet WL dogs. We make sure to brag about their on/off switches, about their ability to settle at home, about how awesome they are with kids. We show them just how great the WL are and we help moderate their extreme views. Is this ever the case for SL? Or do the old guard immediately jump in to kick them down even further?

Even when SL are remotely mentioned, the old guard is more than happy to chime in with the usual criticism: "soft, not real GSDs, weak-nerved, roach back, hock walkers, no drive, reactive, extreme" etc etc etc. We get it. You hate SL. It's offensive and hurtful to those of us that work, show and LOVE our dogs. 
Get your pitchforks and ready yourself for your witch hunt: I love my SL. I participate in dog sports and both are doing quite well. I participate in SV shows (oh the horror! I should just hide my head now...). My dogs are house dogs that go everywhere with me. They've hung out at Starbucks with a hundred people greeting them on a Sunday morning. They've walked in parades. They have had children yank their ears and step on their tails. They take it all in stride. I actually have no idea what you are talking about when you say "SL shy away in the ring". These dogs are DQ or moved back. If a dog acts like an idiot or is so fear reactive that he cannot handle the normal occurrences of a show ring, he cannot show. Go to a SV show and see what happens. It's chaos and the dogs take it all in stride. Noise, everyone running around, screaming, yelling, whistles, loudspeaker, heat, new environment etc. 30 intact adult males all lined up close to each other in a chaotic hectic environment and they all behave fine. You can see drive, power and intensity with the "greats" that move and exhibit full power in the show ring. It takes my breath away and I _love_ my SL. I love movement, structure, fluidity, and conformation. I also place equally high importance on nerve, temperament and drive. I don't agree with everything in the show world, but I love it and will do my best to focus MY dogs in a direction that feels right to me. A direction that marries conformation to working ability to the best of my inexperienced ability. It can happen and it does happen. To see the same old people voice the same old biases against my dogs is HURTFUL and not helping anything, but reaffirming just how awesome and flawless your WL are. 

Every discussion devolves into this type of arrogant and pompous diatribe where it's the same old people talking about the same old things and how their dogs are the best. You have an obvious agenda, even if you don't think you do. You see all GSDs through the prism of your experiences and biases. I wholeheartedly thank martemchik for standing his ground and sticking up for the SL. Not easy to do in this type of environment. Thank you! I appreciate your lone dissenting voice in a pool of sharks just waiting for you to make the wrong move so they can disparage and discredit you further. 

Added: I love WL and will be getting a working dog within the next year or so. Just because you love one line doesn't mean you have to vehemently flush the other down the toilet. This is one breed. So juvenile to carry out these "my dog is best" arguments.


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## carmspack

well if only you knew then that if you were to look at my pedigrees they do include show line look at this then Carmspack Sumo - German Shepherd Dog - see Bazita ? and one of my female lines was bred to this combination VP1 X-cel v TeMar - German Shepherd Dog as sire --


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## Guardyan

Nice! Inger's female Quiz was a tremendous producing female!


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## qbchottu

Carmen: are you seriously saying that you _don't_ have a _very _obvious bias against showlines? Especially WGSL? Regardless of if you have a SL or two in your lines, I don't think you accurately represent SL. Your posts most always portray them in a negative light (Canto, hybrid vigor, backmassing, weak nerved, soft, not a real GSD, roach backed, reactive...sound familiar? ). 
Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but you don't come across as someone that even remotely respects or likes the SL. And imo, you are doing a disservice to more than half the GSDs out there, because your opinion is valued very highly on this board. I have seen more than one naive person take your _opinions _as infallible gospel. It spreads discontent and polarizes the breed. 

I was never a big fan of ultimatums and extremes...in dogs and in opinions.


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## Freestep

qbchottu said:


> Even when SL are remotely mentioned, the old guard is more than happy to chime in with the usual criticism: "soft, not real GSDs, weak-nerved, roach back, hock walkers, no drive, reactive, extreme" etc etc etc. We get it. You hate SL. It's offensive and hurtful to those of us that work, show and LOVE our dogs.


Whoa whoa whoa! I never said anything like that! ALL lines have their strengths and weaknesses. I guess every time I mention a roach back or a hock walker (come on, you're not denying that they exist) I must also mention crazy hyper prey drive, so I'm not accused of being "anti" something. My main concern is temperament, in ALL lines. True, I admit I'm not fond of roach backs (which not all SL have) and hock walkers (which not all ASLs are), and those are conformation issues. I'm also not fond of crazy hyper prey drive (which not all WL have).

I've had working line dogs and mixes of working/show. They all had their strengths and weaknesses and I loved them all. To tell you the truth, I don't care what line my next dog comes from as long as it has the temperament that I want, and doesn't have any kind of extreme structure that would impact health or ability. 

A good dog is a good dog, no matter what line it comes from. I have an SL female that comes in for grooming that I'm absolutely in love with--she has her flaws, as every dog does, yet I'd take her in a hot second, and if the owner could no longer keep her I hope they talk to me first.


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## qbchottu

Freestep: it was not all aimed at you. Just some of the first paragraph. Those insults (and yes, they are insults. We have had other members get banned for using these type of terms in relation to specific dogs. Interesting that it is allowed to continue in certain instances ) are compiled from the various, colorful terms I've heard SL described as on this forum. I am speaking more to the hive mind that exists on this board. The way the same aggressive and insulting terms are parroted repeatedly with little regard as to how they come across to those of us with SL dogs. 



Freestep said:


> A good dog is a good dog, no matter what line it comes from.


:thumbup: I will most certainly agree with you on this point!


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## JakodaCD OA

Of course we are all allowed an opinion here. If anyone feels that something has crossed the line / breaking the rules, all one has to do is hit the Notify button and point it out to a mod

I have had varying lines of gsd's, but admittedly never had a german show line. With that, I can admire them, I can appreciate the wonderful sl breeders we have here, and certainly appreciate all their accomplishments with their beautiful dogs. 

When one posts "about" SL's, you won't usually see a response from me, because I admit it, I'm lacking in knowledge in that area.

I, for one, DO NOT like to read a 'bash' on 'any' line of gsd, because I think it's counterproductive and yes hurtful to those that own them.

However, I am all for getting educated But I think there should be a respectful way to do it


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## Freestep

qbchottu said:


> Those insults (and yes, they are insults. We have had other members get banned for using these type of terms in relation to specific dogs. Interesting that it is allowed to continue in certain instances ) are compiled from the various, colorful terms I've heard SL described as on this forum.


What are the terms that are insulting? I sometimes see GSL that appear to have a "roach back", and I sometimes see ASL that appear to walk on their hocks. So if I say that, is that considered an insult to someone's personal dog, if they own a dog of that line? If so, I feel bad about that because I would never intend to make a personal insult out of a general observation. 

Let me go on the record to say that if I ever mention something undesireable that occurs in any particular dog or bloodline, it is NOT, I repeat, *NOT *meant to be an insult about anyone's particular dog. It saddens me to think that people feel their own dogs are being "insulted" because someone pointed out a shortcoming in another dog or bloodline. Plus, I don't want to feel like the bad guy when I have no desire to hurt anyone's feelings.

It's as I pointed out in an earlier post--no one should feel that their own dog is less deserving or less inherently valuable than one with a different pedgree, or that their beloved companion "shouldn't have been born" because of its parentage.

I understand that certain terms have come to be "hot buttons" for some people, so if I know what those terms are, I will try to avoid using them. However, if that's not enough to assuage everyone's feelings, I suppose that every time I mention overangulation or roach, I can also make a comment about all the other lines so everyone is equally offended.  

For WGWL: How about "coyote-looking", "hyperactive hotheads" or "trigger-happy prey monsters"?

Or old East European, DDR: "dull", "Mastiff-headed", "mule-headed"?

Come on folks, help me out here.


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## Lakl

Lol, my Achilles has saggy side lips! How does that happen?? Is that genetic??


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## martemchik

Freestep its not the terms...its how they're used. Its the if then way of talking about a whole line of dogs. "If I was at a show and saw X dog react in Y way, then all dogs of X line react in Y way." I've seen this X amount of times so I am correct in thinking this about all dogs from that line.

When an issue is mentioned about a working line being extremely prey driven, its an anomaly, its a breeder breeding for the extreme. When an issue like roach back, hock walker, low drive, no drive, soft dog, is mentioned about a show line, its the whole line, not just that dog or that breeder.


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## onyx'girl

Lakl said:


> Lol, my Achilles has saggy side lips! How does that happen?? Is that genetic??


Yes it probably is genetic....and deep bites will stretch them even more!


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> Freestep its not the terms...its how they're used. Its the if then way of talking about a whole line of dogs. "If I was at a show and saw X dog react in Y way, then all dogs of X line react in Y way." I've seen this X amount of times so I am correct in thinking this about all dogs from that line.
> 
> When an issue is mentioned about a working line being extremely prey driven, its an anomaly, its a breeder breeding for the extreme. When an issue like roach back, hock walker, low drive, no drive, soft dog, is mentioned about a show line, its the whole line, not just that dog or that breeder.


Well, not when it's being said by me. I can't speak for anyone else.

I used to think ASLs were ALL soft, spooky, hock-walking, narrow-headed nervebags because that's what I saw when I went to AKC shows back in the 80's - early 90's. I'd always been a fan of the GSD, even as a kid, and it seemed the differences between the dogs of the 70's and the dogs of the 90's were vast. I was very disappointed in what I was seeing.

I am happy to say that things seem to have improved a lot since then, and probably were not as bad as I thought they were in the 80's, either. I was not immersed in the GSD world then, so I was only seeing one small facet of it. And I was young, so my experience and frame of reference was limited. 

I am not a breeder or judge, so my opinions are pretty moot anyway, but my belief is this: There are individual dogs in every line that are great. Whether or not they can pass on their greatness depends on their genetics, what is available to pass on. You can only know this by looking at the pedigree and knowing the dogs in it. I am not going to pretend I know anything about any particular dogs in any particular line, except for what I hear, read, or am told. So I have to reserve judgment there. I only really know what I see, and for the rest, I have to depend on folks who are more knowledgable than I am. If I see a lot of GSL with roach backs, or a lot of WL with crazy hyper prey drive, I want to know where that is coming from and why they are like that. Maybe some bloodlines have certain faults all coming down from a dog way back in the pedigree that has been backmassed upon--and that has as much to do with the breeders, trainers, and judges as it does with the dogs, but to be fair, it can affect a whole line of dogs. 

So if I am looking at a GSD litter, I am going to want to know what the parents look like, act like, and work like. If I know what common faults are in that particular line, I'm going to try to find out about that... if I'm looking at GSLs, I'll make sure there are no roach backs and enough drive. If I'm looking at WL, I'll make sure that there is no hyperactivity, the dog has an "off" switch, and thresholds are high. In any line, I'm going to be looking at hips, general health, and nerve--there is no line that has a monopoly on those issues.


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## codmaster

JakodaCD OA said:


> not sue here, but *cod* I think you have it backwards, she said


hey jak,

I also said that if she shows in a real show, isn't that also practising the dog in the show atmosphere? For the next ones?

Besides, MOST matches that I have been to have been only a fraction of the $ cost of a real official show, so one could probably enter multiple matches for the cost of entering one show. Seems like it might be a lot more cost effective to do that, don't you?

At least for most of us it might be, - unless her dog's always pass, then of course it would be more cost effective just to enter real shows as she claims that she does. Very good thinking in that case.

And of course it is entirely up to her to decide if she has time to devote to her dogs showing or not. And, naturally, if her dogs (unlike some of us) always do pass then it would be a waste of time to enter any maches at all as practice and also be an extra expense that she says that she cannot afford.

So very good for her, isn't it!


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## carmspack

This I'll give you, we have this test at our shows and the conformation people don't do it. Part of it might be they believe their dogs won't pass, part of it might be that they don't want to put their dog through "unnecessary stress" or just pay money for it. The ASL obedience dogs, some pass, some fail. I have to admit that close to 50% fail. They always get hung up on some sort of stupid part. Like the walking over a tarp or a grate. It's interesting because although you can probably teach a dog to walk over those things, why would you want to when a strong set of nerves would just allow the dog to naturally do these things without handler intervention.

It would be nice to have a simple test like this mandated for show dogs, but like Carmen pointed out, unless the AKC says that certificate is necessary the people just won't do it. They don't want to show anyone that their dog might be lacking in something like that. --------------

that is exactly what I am talking about . Nothing gets to be improved if you put your heads in the sand and work in denial. 
Do I have a bias against american show -- no. 

When I left my parental home , first opportunity I got a dog - brother was a futurity winner , mine was a time bomb -- then later I got a daughter of a Grand Victor and the dog was a nerve bag , ....that is why I decided I had to make my own -- model her after the brilliant dog that I left behind , a grey sable from the 60's , did not see many of those at that time -- put a UD on her when I was still a young teen - that dog could do anything and did corner and hold an intruder in our home, and yet would follow baby brother staring at his poofy cotton diapers as he crawled -- if he got out of the zone she held him by the diaper -- those are the things I hold dear -- that kind of intelligence 

Every single breeding that I do with my old line going back to 1978 drags along a heritage of "american" dogs . 
My female , was Obed Grand Victrix 199.5/200 , Dog World Award Canine Distinction, Sentry Challenge Award, Benjamin Schulz Award. Her pedigree sire Ned of Edgetown son of http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=467670 - her mother line coming from old established Mary Southcott Cara Mia Canadian bred , recent German ancestry dogs. Mary was a great influence as a judge and obedience enthusiast. 
The breeding that set me on the way in 1978 was to a male that I had found at an obedience trial. A lovely lady from the Chicago area with her two males -- they entered the building and every head snapped to look to her direction. She was Antar's kennel -- famous for tracking dogs, producing entire litters that would get TDs first time out at 11 months of age !!! The male I chose was Antar's Apache Joe Am Can UD and Am Can TDX (highest that you could go at that point in history) . His sire likewise Am Can UD and AM Can TDX JBs Apollo of Vasold son of http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=403224 you can take this pedigree back to the 1940's. 
That produced my foundation which is Carmspack Ambergris UD TD Herding title and practical work on farm (title from Australian Cattle Dog club in Washington state) . This female produced one of Ontario's first , and for a long time only, bomb detection dog - so when Pope John Paul made his first trip this dog "Baker" did all the preliminary building searches - I do have pictures of him with our Queen's representative Jean Suave in government buildings. This same dog protected your President in Torontos first Summitt. The sire was "american" lines.
The piece de resistance litter that Amber produced was of vast importance to me because it is through this combination that all my prime working lines flow. Located, a working police dog in Washington State. Contracted that all the males were to go to RCMP , we could "have" the females. Did the breeding . 
One male only , went into service, died of knife injuries while in service. The females , Salada, Stash, Jasmine SAR cert. I got Tetley as my share of litter and she produced two police dogs from two sires, Tell and Keno .
The line continues to this day, having recently incorporated a male who drags an American show line in his background. Rampa SchH3 podium dog . Sire of Chilkoot - now a working police dog and his son Tazer , brother to my female Sabrina who is mother to working police dog Agro and related to others ....
Then this line recently was brought in to a german show line through X-Justice von Temar .

Just last month I cleared out my library of old GSD Reviews (US) and Gazettes (Can) going back to the early 70's and lent them to Linda Shaw who will be coming up with an article on the changes , sort of a time capsule trip to the past and considering what is the future. She has some magazines which pre-date my collection. I keep them as archival material.

If you want a good encyclopedic look at the breed covering American kennels, German kennels , then buy [ame="http://www.amazon.com/German-Shepherd-Book-First-Edition/dp/9995498251"]http://www.amazon.com/German-Shepherd-Book-First-Edition/dp/9995498251[/ame]
training , showing, health all covered , plus breeder interviews and section on history of breed.

ah me, when you are as old as FreeStep and myself you have seen a lot . You know from personal experience what was , and what is . There actually is a lot of sadness. I am sad that things have turned out the way they did. I did try my mightiest , did have dogs from "american" lines of which I have great pride and sense of accomplishment. Some of those dogs are still what I want to create .
Some of those dogs, in all gods truth , were better than dogs which I had bought since then, ddr imports, german working . Seriously. Then there were others that were temperamental disasters . I tried till 1990 and then ran out of genetics that not only would advance me , but could no longer maintain what I had and so I incorporated working lines from Joe Kuhn who was a true dog-man and had a good sense of looking for natural ability . 

In conversations with Linda about the state of affairs we have often been agreement that in this society , for the average pet owner the american show lines would be well suited . 

But this discussion is on the betterment of the breed, which means the gsd-world arena and american lines will not be selected to contribute for betterment -- show lines will do well if incorporated into real solid pedigrees.

The best days were in the 1960's -- for all , including american lines . 

Would I use an american lines dog today -- it depends , I am sure somewhere out there there is an individual who has an obscure program breeding dogs for themselves as farm dog type -- maybe then .

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com


----------



## carmspack

yes - Olympus kennels,Inger Olavson V (USA) Quiz vom Olympus - German Shepherd Dog on Sumo's pedigree , is known to be critical and insists on working ability and sound temperament, which is why my friend/partner has had several dogs from her which got folded into various pedigrees.

--- speaking of shows -- I had the opportunity and privilege of sitting with US specialty judges , Ann Mesdag who ran a commentary , and kept quizing me on what I was seeing and then educating me -- that was worth a lot . We were at a Nationals specialty show . I've had some good teachers.


----------



## codmaster

carmspack said:


> This I'll give you, we have *this test* at our shows and the conformation people don't do it. Part of it might be they believe their dogs won't pass, part of it might be that they don't want to put their dog through "unnecessary stress" or just pay money for it. *How much is the test?* *The ASL obedience dogs, some pass, some fail. I have to admit that close to 50% fail.* They always get hung up on some sort of stupid part. Like the walking over a tarp or a grate. It's interesting because although you can probably teach a dog to walk over those things, why would you want to when a strong set of nerves would just allow the dog to naturally do these things without handler intervention. *Every WL dog passes? That is great!*
> 
> It would be nice to have a simple test like this mandated for show dogs, but like Carmen pointed out, unless the AKC says that certificate is necessary the people just won't do it. They don't want to show anyone that their dog might be lacking in something like that. -------------- *How about a conformation (adherence to the standard) for all dogs at all shows?*
> 
> that is exactly what I am talking about . Nothing gets to be improved if you put your heads in the sand and work in denial.
> Do I have a bias against american show -- no. *????*
> 
> When I left my parental home , first opportunity I got a dog - brother was a futurity winner , mine was a time bomb -- then later I got a daughter of a Grand Victor and the dog was a nerve bag , ....that is why I decided I had to make my own -- model her after the brilliant dog that I left behind , a grey sable from the 60's , did not see many of those at that time -- put a UD on her when I was still a young teen - that dog could do anything and did corner and hold an intruder in our home, and yet would follow baby brother staring at his poofy cotton diapers as he crawled -- if he got out of the zone she held him by the diaper -- those are the things I hold dear -- that kind of intelligence
> 
> Every single breeding that I do with my old line going back to 1978 drags along a heritage of "american" dogs .
> My female , was Obed Grand Victrix 199.5/200 , Dog World Award Canine Distinction, Sentry Challenge Award, Benjamin Schulz Award. Her pedigree sire Ned of Edgetown son of http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=467670 - her mother line coming from old established Mary Southcott Cara Mia Canadian bred , recent German ancestry dogs. Mary was a great influence as a judge and obedience enthusiast.
> The breeding that set me on the way in 1978 was to a male that I had found at an obedience trial. A lovely lady from the Chicago area with her two males -- they entered the building and every head snapped to look to her direction. She was Antar's kennel -- famous for tracking dogs, producing entire litters that would get TDs first time out at 11 months of age !!! The male I chose was Antar's Apache Joe Am Can UD and Am Can TDX (highest that you could go at that point in history) . His sire likewise Am Can UD and AM Can TDX JBs Apollo of Vasold son of http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=403224 you can take this pedigree back to the 1940's.
> That produced my foundation which is Carmspack Ambergris UD TD Herding title and practical work on farm (title from Australian Cattle Dog club in Washington state) . This female produced one of Ontario's first , and for a long time only, bomb detection dog - so when Pope John Paul made his first trip this dog "Baker" did all the preliminary building searches - I do have pictures of him with our Queen's representative Jean Suave in government buildings. This same dog protected your President in Torontos first Summitt. The sire was "american" lines.
> The piece de resistance litter that Amber produced was of vast importance to me because it is through this combination that all my prime working lines flow. Located, a working police dog in Washington State. Contracted that all the males were to go to RCMP , we could "have" the females. Did the breeding .
> One male only , went into service, died of knife injuries while in service. The females , Salada, Stash, Jasmine SAR cert. I got Tetley as my share of litter and she produced two police dogs from two sires, Tell and Keno .
> The line continues to this day, having recently incorporated a male who drags an American show line in his background. Rampa SchH3 podium dog . Sire of Chilkoot - now a working police dog and his son Tazer , brother to my female Sabrina who is mother to working police dog Agro and related to others ....
> Then this line recently was brought in to a german show line through X-Justice von Temar .
> 
> Just last month I cleared out my library of old GSD Reviews (US) and Gazettes (Can) going back to the early 70's and lent them to Linda Shaw who will be coming up with an article on the changes , sort of a time capsule trip to the past and considering what is the future. She has some magazines which pre-date my collection. I keep them as archival material.
> 
> If you want a good encyclopedic look at the breed covering American kennels, German kennels , then buy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/German-Shepherd-Book-First-Edition/dp/9995498251
> training , showing, health all covered , plus breeder interviews and section on history of breed.
> 
> ah me, when you are as old as FreeStep and myself you have seen a lot . You know from personal experience what was , and what is . There actually is a lot of sadness. I am sad that things have turned out the way they did. I did try my mightiest , did have dogs from "american" lines of which I have great pride and sense of accomplishment. Some of those dogs are still what I want to create .
> Some of those dogs, in all gods truth , were better than dogs which I had bought since then, ddr imports, german working . Seriously. Then there were others that were temperamental disasters . I tried till 1990 and then ran out of genetics that not only would advance me , but could no longer maintain what I had and so I incorporated working lines from Joe Kuhn who was a true dog-man and had a good sense of looking for natural ability .
> 
> In conversations with Linda about the state of affairs we have often been agreement that in this society , for the average pet owner the american show lines would be well suited .
> 
> But this discussion is on the betterment of the breed, which means the gsd-world arena and american lines will not be selected to contribute for betterment -- show lines will do well if incorporated into real solid pedigrees.
> 
> The best days were in the 1960's -- for all , including american lines .
> 
> Would I use an american lines dog today -- it depends , I am sure somewhere out there there is an individual who has an obscure program breeding dogs for themselves as farm dog type -- maybe then . *Sure sounds like there is no bias against US lines today!*
> 
> Carmen
> http://www.carmspack.com


 
Very informative discussion.

Are you suggesting that *Every *WL dog passes all the tests that you mention above for the ASL dogs where only 50% pass? Without ANY training whatsoever before they walk the strange things and do whatever else that "your test" entails? Or is it that only the US lines and esp. the SL dogs are the ones that are supposed to take the test at your show?

Sorry for the questions - I just couldn't get a clerar picture of what you were saying about this test at your shows. And why it was so bad that any owner would want to practice it before they took it.

You know what! - maybe we should do a IPO test for WL dogs who have not been trained or run thru it ahead of time. That might be a good test maybe as well.


----------



## Freestep

carmspack said:


> ah me, when you are as old as FreeStep and myself you have seen a lot .


Now now--I am not THAT old!

The other day I went to a massage therapist, he asked me how my hands and wrists were doing. I told him that, amazingly enough, with all the neck, back, and shoulder issues I have going on, my hands are in surprisingly good shape...never had an issue with carpal tunnel or anything like that, just some soreness in one wrist due to old break. He said, "Well, you don't start seeing carpal tunnel until later, you are not even 40, right?" 

It was a nice compliment, but maybe just flattery. I am 44, but some days I feel a lot older!


----------



## Freestep

codmaster said:


> Are you suggesting that *Every *WL dog passes all the tests that you mention above for the ASL dogs where only 50% pass? Without ANY training whatsoever before they walk the strange things and do whatever else that "your test" entails? Or is it that only the US lines and esp. the SL dogs are the ones that are supposed to take the test at your show?


I think Carmen was quoting someone else right there.


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## carmspack

It is not MY test, it is a standard American Temperament Test association standardized evalauation. 
Go visit the von Giliannes - Belgian thread and view some of the Mentality tests . The purpose of any test to have any value is if it reveals what is natural to the dog.

If you want to see my findings on working lines - visit a previous thread where I went to observce our Regional trials , which was a big disappointment. I know others were less patient than myself and left .

You can practice it all you want, just as you can have a dog go through several thunderstorms and it may still have a fear . The purpose is not to condition the dog it is to understand what the dog really is . There comes a point where you pretty much can cope , but add one more thing and bang -- it all falls apart and you revert to what you are naturally. 
We are talking about genetics here. Genes are passed on .
Training is not.


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## carmspack

do working line dogs fail -- in real life sure they do . I'll use dogs being evaluated for police work as an example. Some are great at all the schutzhund stuff , but test them in a dark room, or on very high gloss "slippery" floors and they shut down. One test the RCMP did at our Toronto airport for dogs being evaluated was to have them enter through automatic doors into a building that was all glass , huge vaulted ceilings and the floor so bright you could be snow-blinded -- many many dogs failed because they could not enter without concern. 

if you are looking for ideals you have to be critical and honest only then is there improvement.


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## martemchik

The test is the temperament certification of the GSDCA. Look it up, its a pretty common test. My rates are based on my club, where 95% of dogs are ASL. The other 5% is WL and GSL. The WL that come in to take that test are generally getting Schutzhund trained. So these dogs are looked for and purchased because they come from good breedings and breeders that know what they're doing. These dogs are rock solid, its fantastic to watch them fly through the test. The ASL dogs, are pet dogs. There are many from certain kennels that are popular in my area and that produce champions year after year. Some of these dogs pass, others don't. It is close to a 50% pass rate. The test isn't really difficult, but if the dog refuses to do any one thing, it fails.

I remember that many of the dogs from this years test are all from what are considered very good breeders in our area. They produce champion dogs and have produces grand victors and victixes in the past. So although the dogs have pretty good temperament, they live great day to day lives and you'd never notice an issue with this dog on normal ground, when it comes to something weird being thrown at them they not only fear it, they shut down. The test is made so that even if the dog doesn't just go, if they regroup and go anyways they pass. Its only an issue if they completely refuse to do something.


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## dogfaeries

I know the sire of my girl Carly passed the GSDCA's temperament certification. I haven't come across any club around here that does the testing. I'd be interested in seeing how Carly would do. 

I was digging around in her pedigree last night, and discovered that her grandfather was not only a show dog with a few herding titles, but actually did some herding on the cattle ranch he lived on. These same people had the first GSD to get a conformation championship and an advanced herding title. They also had a multiple BIS (best in show) GSD that had a herding title. Anyway, there are several herding titles, mostly beginner stuff, in Carly's (and Sage's) pedigree. Nice to know they weren't complete slackers.


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## carmspack

check out Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs and there you will see recent use of american show lines (canadian version) . Linda's "Timmy" is the result of breeding Corry Wiesental to Carmspack Katiana (sister to Kilo) . I had the opportunity to really get to know Corry when Linda came in a little later, with encouragement, to the French Ring club . Corry handled everything thrown at him in spite of coming into work later in life , previously being a great companion and ambassador and show dog. He was always willing and was animated and happy in his work, never failing to try something . He was not given special treatment . Unfortunately Corry did not title , by that time the club was already in the doldrums. I was in time to get the Brevet and participate in Campagne trials .
At that trial Cheryl Carlson was one of the agitators in defence of handler scenario for Kilo , shot the gun so close my ears rang and I am sure the dog went momentarily deaf . Cheryl Carlson was very active in French Ring, along with other club members , and guess what , her lines were largely american lines bred dogs - one dog I asked about that did very very well was on Eko-lans Paladen , similar to lines I had .
Could Corry have attained a Sch H title? Seeing how he negotiated the challenges and pressures of Ring , I have no doubt what so ever -- problem there too , at that time clubs had no shelf life . 
So then Linda bred him to Katiana Carmspack Kilo - German Shepherd Dog . The result was Timmy (Shawlein Easter Parade).
Note that Corry, Katiana, Timmy all had their TT (Temperament Test) 
Timmy -- Shawlein Easter Parade SchH3 AD TD CD TT CGC UCC OFA Ch ptd, my Tim - just shy of champion points , 
then Timmy was bred to Carmspack Kohl - German Shepherd Dog resulting in KATO -- who will be featured in a movement video sometime soon . 

There are some straws saved of Timmy , which I hope to use for an offspring that will continue to contribute to the programme.

Carmen


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## carmspack

and this



are the same dog Jaymar's Kai von Carmspack, dam Carmspack Mokka , also dam of Kawartha Lakes "Strike"

good temperament allow you so much freedom and potential


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## codmaster

carmspack said:


> This I'll give you, we have *this test* at our shows and the conformation people don't do it. Part of it might be they believe their dogs won't pass, part of it might be that they don't want to put their dog through "unnecessary stress" or just pay money for it. *How much is the test?* *The ASL obedience dogs, some pass, some fail. I have to admit that close to 50% fail.* They always get hung up on some sort of stupid part. Like the walking over a tarp or a grate. It's interesting because although you can probably teach a dog to walk over those things, why would you want to when a strong set of nerves would just allow the dog to naturally do these things without handler intervention. *Every WL dog passes? That is great!*
> 
> It would be nice to have a simple test like this mandated for show dogs, but like Carmen pointed out, unless the AKC says that certificate is necessary the people just won't do it. They don't want to show anyone that their dog might be lacking in something like that. -------------- *How about a conformation (adherence to the standard) for all dogs at all shows?*
> 
> that is exactly what I am talking about . Nothing gets to be improved if you put your heads in the sand and work in denial.
> Do I have a bias against american show -- no. *????*
> 
> When I left my parental home , first opportunity I got a dog - brother was a futurity winner , mine was a time bomb -- then later I got a daughter of a Grand Victor and the dog was a nerve bag , ....that is why I decided I had to make my own -- model her after the brilliant dog that I left behind , a grey sable from the 60's , did not see many of those at that time -- put a UD on her when I was still a young teen - that dog could do anything and did corner and hold an intruder in our home, and yet would follow baby brother staring at his poofy cotton diapers as he crawled -- if he got out of the zone she held him by the diaper -- those are the things I hold dear -- that kind of intelligence
> 
> Every single breeding that I do with my old line going back to 1978 drags along a heritage of "american" dogs .
> My female , was Obed Grand Victrix 199.5/200 , Dog World Award Canine Distinction, Sentry Challenge Award, Benjamin Schulz Award. Her pedigree sire Ned of Edgetown son of http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=467670 - her mother line coming from old established Mary Southcott Cara Mia Canadian bred , recent German ancestry dogs. Mary was a great influence as a judge and obedience enthusiast.
> The breeding that set me on the way in 1978 was to a male that I had found at an obedience trial. A lovely lady from the Chicago area with her two males -- they entered the building and every head snapped to look to her direction. She was Antar's kennel -- famous for tracking dogs, producing entire litters that would get TDs first time out at 11 months of age !!! The male I chose was Antar's Apache Joe Am Can UD and Am Can TDX (highest that you could go at that point in history) . His sire likewise Am Can UD and AM Can TDX JBs Apollo of Vasold son of http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=403224 you can take this pedigree back to the 1940's.
> That produced my foundation which is Carmspack Ambergris UD TD Herding title and practical work on farm (title from Australian Cattle Dog club in Washington state) . This female produced one of Ontario's first , and for a long time only, bomb detection dog - so when Pope John Paul made his first trip this dog "Baker" did all the preliminary building searches - I do have pictures of him with our Queen's representative Jean Suave in government buildings. This same dog protected your President in Torontos first Summitt. The sire was "american" lines.
> The piece de resistance litter that Amber produced was of vast importance to me because it is through this combination that all my prime working lines flow. Located, a working police dog in Washington State. Contracted that all the males were to go to RCMP , we could "have" the females. Did the breeding .
> One male only , went into service, died of knife injuries while in service. The females , Salada, Stash, Jasmine SAR cert. I got Tetley as my share of litter and she produced two police dogs from two sires, Tell and Keno .
> The line continues to this day, having recently incorporated a male who drags an American show line in his background. Rampa SchH3 podium dog . Sire of Chilkoot - now a working police dog and his son Tazer , brother to my female Sabrina who is mother to working police dog Agro and related to others ....
> Then this line recently was brought in to a german show line through X-Justice von Temar .
> 
> Just last month I cleared out my library of old GSD Reviews (US) and Gazettes (Can) going back to the early 70's and lent them to Linda Shaw who will be coming up with an article on the changes , sort of a time capsule trip to the past and considering what is the future. She has some magazines which pre-date my collection. I keep them as archival material.
> 
> If you want a good encyclopedic look at the breed covering American kennels, German kennels , then buy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/German-Shepherd-Book-First-Edition/dp/9995498251
> training , showing, health all covered , plus breeder interviews and section on history of breed.
> 
> ah me, when you are as old as FreeStep and myself you have seen a lot . You know from personal experience what was , and what is . There actually is a lot of sadness. I am sad that things have turned out the way they did. I did try my mightiest , did have dogs from "american" lines of which I have great pride and sense of accomplishment. Some of those dogs are still what I want to create .
> Some of those dogs, in all gods truth , were better than dogs which I had bought since then, ddr imports, german working . Seriously. Then there were others that were temperamental disasters . I tried till 1990 and then ran out of genetics that not only would advance me , but could no longer maintain what I had and so I incorporated working lines from Joe Kuhn who was a true dog-man and had a good sense of looking for natural ability .
> 
> In conversations with Linda about the state of affairs we have often been agreement that in this society , for the average pet owner the american show lines would be well suited .
> 
> But this discussion is on the betterment of the breed, which means the gsd-world arena and american lines will not be selected to contribute for betterment -- show lines will do well if incorporated into real solid pedigrees.
> 
> The best days were in the 1960's -- for all , including american lines .
> 
> Would I use an american lines dog today -- it depends , I am sure somewhere out there there is an individual who has an obscure program breeding dogs for themselves as farm dog type -- maybe then . *Sure sounds like there is no bias against US lines today!*
> 
> Carmen
> http://www.carmspack.com


 
Very informative discussion.

Are you suggesting that *Every *WL dog passes all the tests that you mention above for the ASL dogs where only 50% pass? Without ANY training whatsoever before they walk the strange things and do whatever else that "your test" entails? Or is it that only the US lines and esp. the SL dogs are the ones that are supposed to take the test at your show?

Sorry for the questions - I just couldn't get a clerar picture of what you were saying about this test at your shows. And why it was so bad that any owner would want to practice it before they took it.

You know what! - maybe we should do a IPO test for WL dogs who have not been trained or run thru it ahead of time. That might be a good test maybe as well.


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## selzer

codmaster said:


> hey jak,
> 
> I also said that if she shows in a real show, isn't that also practising the dog in the show atmosphere? For the next ones?
> 
> Besides, MOST matches that I have been to have been only a fraction of the $ cost of a real official show, so one could probably enter multiple matches for the cost of entering one show. Seems like it might be a lot more cost effective to do that, don't you?
> 
> At least for most of us it might be, - unless her dog's always pass, then of course it would be more cost effective just to enter real shows as she claims that she does. Very good thinking in that case.
> 
> And of course it is entirely up to her to decide if she has time to devote to her dogs showing or not. And, naturally, if her dogs (unlike some of us) always do pass then it would be a waste of time to enter any maches at all as practice and also be an extra expense that she says that she cannot afford.
> 
> So very good for her, isn't it!


Codmaster, 

You do not _have_ to go to matches. So that money is totally wasted. Sorry, but it is true. You _have _to go to a minimum of 3 shows to get a title -- three separate legs, though, you could do two shows at the same location on the same day. 

I don't have a lot of extra money to play with right now, so what I do is put 2-3 dogs in the car, and go to a show, not a match. My dogs get their title legs in their very first dog show experience. Yes, shows are more expensive, but you get a title leg out of it. 

I suppose that dog show 1 is a training experience for dog show 2 and 3, but usually, since I have bitches, I try to get the title in a weekend, so I don't end up a leg short and then have the bitch come in heat, and all of that. 

We train the course, whether obedience or rally. But being in a class with 6-10 dog/handler teams, indoors or outdoors is in no way the same as being at the classic with 2000 or more dogs and all their paraphernalia and people. I really cannot find anything except maybe a match (much smaller scale) that comes close to that type of chaos. And, as I have said, no money to mess around going to matches to get the dog used to the show experience. The dogs will just have to cope with a brand new situation and still give me a good performance. And, they do. 

I have to admit that I have more trouble, more nervous trouble at shows than my green dogs do.

In something like 15 or 18 titles with a dozen dogs, I have NQ'd a handful of times, and most of those were totally my fault, like dropping the lead, twice; and missing a station.


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## Lakl

I think I just had de ja vu?


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> Codmaster,
> 
> You do not _have_ to go to matches. So that money is totally wasted. Sorry, but it is true. You _have _to go to a minimum of 3 shows to get a title -- three separate legs, though, you could do two shows at the same location on the same day.
> 
> I don't have a lot of extra money to play with right now, so what I do is put 2-3 dogs in the car, and go to a show, not a match. My dogs get their title legs in their very first dog show experience. Yes, shows are more expensive, but you get a title leg out of it.
> 
> I suppose that dog show 1 is a training experience for dog show 2 and 3, but usually, since I have bitches, I try to get the title in a weekend, so I don't end up a leg short and then have the bitch come in heat, and all of that.
> 
> We train the course, whether obedience or rally. But being in a class with 6-10 dog/handler teams, indoors or outdoors is in no way the same as being at the classic with 2000 or more dogs and all their paraphernalia and people. I really cannot find anything except maybe a match (much smaller scale) that comes close to that type of chaos. And, as I have said, no money to mess around going to matches to get the dog used to the show experience. The dogs will just have to cope with a brand new situation and still give me a good performance. And, they do.
> 
> I have to admit that I have more trouble, more nervous trouble at shows than my green dogs do.
> 
> In something like 15 or 18 titles with a dozen dogs, I have NQ'd a handful of times, and most of those were totally my fault, like dropping the lead, twice; and missing a station.


Nowhere did I ever say or even imply, that you or anyone else HAD to go to matches. If you think I did say or imply that please let me know where you think I said that.

What i did say is that many people could use matches as a cheaper and easier place to train themselves and their dogs in what to do in a show environment. That is all, nothing more, nothing less.

That is the intent of a match, whether it be breed, Obedience or anything else - to give everyone (or anyone who needs the practice) the chance to practice, dogs and people, in an atmosphere of less expense and certainly less pressure.

If you and/or your dogs don't need the practice opportunity or cannot afford the cost and the time investment in a match; then it is simple - don't go!

And of course some people just really enjoy showing their dogs even in a "non official" match just like a show. Don't have to be a "real" show for them to enjoy themselves.


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## selzer

Codmaster, are you refusing to understand me in this ridiculous sub-topic that you really brought to the forefront for some reason. I made a comment a few pages back that if you are like me, you don't have the money to do matches and I just go and get title legs. 

Then you countered because matches are cheaper, you didn't understand how I could get legs without actually going to a show.

Yes, I go to shows, not matches, because matches are unnecessary when it comes to getting the actually title.

And you went on to argue that unless I always qualify. Well, I generally don't sign the dog up until I have a good chance of qualifying. 

Hope that clears things up for you.


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## dogfaeries

Honestly I don't know anyone that goes to matches. They just train, and then enter shows. Seems to work for them!


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> Codmaster, are you refusing to understand me in this ridiculous sub-topic that you really brought to the forefront for some reason. I made a comment a few pages back that if you are like me, you don't have the money to do matches and I just go and get title legs.
> 
> Then you countered because matches are cheaper, you didn't understand how I could get legs without actually going to a show.
> 
> Yes, I go to shows, not matches, because matches are unnecessary when it comes to getting the actually title.
> 
> And you went on to argue that *unless I always qualify*. *Unless what? Can't understand your English here, I am afraid, but just forget it and see below! *
> Well, I generally don't sign the dog up until I have a good chance of qualifying.
> 
> Hope that clears things up for you.


*Lets Move on!*


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## JakodaCD OA

couple things first to answer cod


> hey jak,
> 
> I also said that if she shows in a real show, isn't that also practising the dog in the show atmosphere? For the next ones?
> 
> Besides, MOST matches that I have been to have been only a fraction of the $ cost of a real official show, so one could probably enter multiple matches for the cost of entering one show. Seems like it might be a lot more cost effective to do that, don't you?
> 
> At least for most of us it might be, - unless her dog's always pass, then of course it would be more cost effective just to enter real shows as she claims that she does. Very good thinking in that case.


 
Can't speak for Sue, but I'll speak for myself Matches around here years ago,were abundant, every weekend there was a match going on, with obed/conformation...Always packed with entries..and YES, CHEAP, probably up to 10.00 a class..They were INVALUABLE to me anyway..it was and I believe still is, an excellent way to get out there , train, practice, get critiqued and prep for trial. 

I admit it , I was a weekend match warrior, but again, excellent practice (besides classes) for prepping for trial. It's really to bad "matches" have disappeared I never viewed them as a waste of money or useless

Entering trials IS expensive, AKC runs in the high 20's now. For me, when I enter, I enter to Qualify, (yes I admit I'm rather competative I'm not a die hard trainer, but I'm not entering to 'practice', (which most times is not allowed in the ring) Obedience is a whole nuther ball of wax, and there's no way I'm spending 20+ bucks to bomb. SO yes I do train, practice, go to run thru's/ matches if available because again, I think they are invaluable.

As for temperament testing, I have been out of the conformation (akc) loop for a long time, but at one point I thought GSDCA implemented a quick tt in the conformation ring, I honestly have never seen it done so maybe it was a good thought but never implemented??

When I did my first ATTS with my shepherd (many moons ago), I had no idea what to expect, and it's not something I would "practice" because I believe you want to see the dogs NATURAL reaction, I thought "WOW, how cool is this?" yes she passed, and when I was done was approached by a cop asking to buy my dog (no thanks

Same with herding instinct test,,I went in blind, and got what I wanted, passing dogs who just did what came natural to them. 

ok done


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## gagsd

The whole point of a Temperament Test is to.... guess what?...... test temperament!
There should be no training or preparing.


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## selzer

Yes, the TT, or the temperament test that they do in conformation is not to be trained for. Though, there are probably those that condition their dogs by having them walk along a variety of surfaces and getting them used to gun shots, etc. The CGC and the BH require a certain amount of training because they require loose lead walking or heeling and off lead heeling, they require other obedience commands, so we will either train specifically for that, and take the test at the end of the classes, or we will take a dog that has already mastered those skills, and test them at a show or match where the test is offered.

Yes, it is much too expensive to enter shows if you don't think your dog has the training required to qualify. No training is allowed in the ring, and no training collars are allowed to be used -- prong, head collars, or e-collars, choke chains are allowed, but if you offer a correction with one in the ring, you will likely be excused, DQ'd and there is always the possibility that a complaint will be filed. 

I have been to matches and run-throughs, and yes, they are very cheap, they are fun, they are relaxed, you can enter the day of the show (which is a big deal when you have bitches), but if you have a dog that isn't going to spazz from just being in a chaotic environment for the first time, and you have to be careful what you spend in time, gas, and money, matches are a step that are unnecessary. Training classes is where we learn and proof all the different tests the dog will manage in the ring.

Unless we are just getting caught up on terms:

Qualify = performed each exercise sufficiently enough to earn a title leg. In obedience the score must be 170 or better out of 200, and you cannot lose more than 50% of the points of any task. Also, the dog and handler must not do anything that would disqualify them. So if they knock off 20 points on a 30 point item, and that is all the points you missed in the entire run, you will still not qualify. In Rally it is simpler, you must receive a score of at least 70 out of 100, and not do anything that will disqualify the team, like touching the dog to get him into position, or missing a station completely.

DQ is disqualify, where an NQ is not qualifying. There are some differences. If you miss a sign you will NQ, but a DQ is more like when you yell at or yank on the dog to get it to behave -- DQ. 

I am not sure if being excused is always a DQ or not. But if the dog is lame, the judge can excuse the dog. 

Also a dog that breaks the first stay, will be excused from the next stay. I agree with that as its dangerous to have a poorly trained dog running around while the dogs are doing sits and downs. It is better to just get the dog out of there. At matches that isn't the case, it is actually more for training, and they will generally give you the option so long as the dog hasn't tried to attack another dog.


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## Freestep

The reason matches are great is that it mimics a real trial, on new territory, with all the distractions of a real trial, except that you CAN use corrections if needed. 

Some dogs learn that, when they go into the ring at trial time, they won't get corrected... and they take full advantage of that fact.  Anyone who has ever trialed a dog is familiar with the "He never did THAT before!" syndrome. All the things they do beautifully in class, with nary a problem? They will surprise you on trial day.

If you go to a number of matches, the dog doesn't associate an obedience ring with the ability to get away with stuff they can't during training classes. That is a real advantage for folks who have a lot of matches close by. For those of us who don't, we just have to enter trials on a wing and a prayer.


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## LARHAGE

codmaster said:


> Me too!
> 
> But were WE bred to work?


 
I'd love to NOT be bred to work, I would be much happier being a complete slacker.


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## codmaster

LARHAGE said:


> I'd love to NOT be bred to work, I would be much happier being a complete slacker.


 
Heh! Heh!


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## martemchik

Yes, the point of the TT is to test your dog without getting it prepared for it. What I meant by WL passing it is that the ones I have seen do the test are trained in some sort of work. The ones from outside my club are generally Schutzhund dogs that come from good lines and the people search out those dogs for their temperaments. The ASL dogs are usually just getting pet type training for obedience and some go on to trial in AKC obedience and rally. Out of 25 dogs that take the test, 20 are probably ASL, and 5 are working line. So the chances of having a bad/soft temperament in the ASL is much higher when you're looking at that cross-section.

If say you took every single WL and tested them, I'm sure plenty would fail. Not all of them have the most solid of temperaments. But the point of not preparing your dog for this test is that its all "real life" stuff. None of it is really obedience or trainable. It's kind of an expanded version of the CGC and I actually think the CGC has more "trainable" components to it. In this, your dog literally doesn't need to know any obedience commands. It's all about how the dog reacts to situations that are presented to it.


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## Mikelia

This has been a very informative thread. And being a newbie to the forum - served as a good introduction to the people on this list. I too long for a combination of the working/show style. I like a dog with rock solid back, a little rear (we don't own labs), a proper moving dog that can trot all day, solid pasterns, straight hocks, rich colours and strong temperament. Some of these things you find more in show lines, others are very prevalent in working lines. And I think that every person who is breeding to suit a certain 'line' or 'style' of dog is doing more harm than good. This conversation could go on forever though.
A few comments on previous posts though. For the record I own two ASL dogs, one of which has some SCH dogs on his sires side. The breeder has been breeding for 40 years, many of her dogs are titled in obedience, rally, agility, tracking and a few are working tending dogs. Also a lot of temperament tests, ROMCs and CHs of course.
One of my boys is a rescue, was starved almost to death and lived that way until he was 3 years old. I believe a lot of his structural problems stem from lack of muscle development as he was growing. This being said he is way over angulated (which I deteste) and his hocks are too long. I strongly believe if he was raised with proper nourishment he would not be nearly as wobbly in the back end, but would still be cow hocked. However this dog can run behind a four wheeler all day, and has proven this many many times. He has endurance and drive like you would not believe. He is also what I would consider some working lines to be 'way to much drive, no on off switch, too high energy, too prey driven'. Again some of this stems from lack of stimulation for the majority of his life but I bet some of the WL people out there would love this dog for serious competition (if you could get over his wobble rear end). He is 5 years old now, has not slowed in the least bit, no arthritis or any other health issues related to his angulation and long hocks. Long story short he is a hock walker but in no way does it impede his working ability.
My other boy I am very proud of. We started trialing last year and have had a great time (and some not so great times) learning the ropes. His very first rally trial there were also 2 other GSDs, czech WL dogs bred for competetive schutzhund and SAR dogs. These dogs were bred and raised with competitive obedience in mind, with extremely knowledgable owners as their trainers. Eli and I got higher scores than both of them in each trial entered. I was very proud to bring home our high in trial rosette after our very first show entered. I am not saying asl lines are better than wl by any means, but each dog has their strong points and there are amazing dogs in all bloodlines.
And I do feel just being at a dog show is a good test (not the be all end all test) to temperament. I have seen dogs break their leashes to get out of the ring, try to attack judges, run from judges, won't let judges touch them. I've seen this a lot in our breed and every other breed as well. I remember an obedience trial last year there was a HUGE thunderstorm and it was an indoor trial in a large building with a tin roof. Some of the dogs were freaking. My boy did all that was asked of him without any issue. At the same trial - during the sit stay - a chesapeake broke its stay and proceeded to bounce around the ring barking, growling at the judge and not letting its owner catch it. Amazingly every dog stayed (I think the sheltie froze more in fear than holding its sit stay but it still stayed). I was definately beaming when I returned to my dog and released him. A dog with a horrible temperament can be trained to do all levels of performance work imo. However they need a rock solid temperament to handle out of the ordinary things like that. 
This being said my next dog will be WL. I am having a heck of a time finding what I want though. They either have too little rear and look like labs with shepherd heads, or too much rear and are just embarassing to have in public. Solid back or too short backs or horrible roached backs. Horrible pasterns or cat like feet. I feel too many people are breeding to fit into a 'style' and whether you're WL, ASL or GSL if you are breeding based on what won at the last show you are still breeding for style, not the 'betterment of the breed'.


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## ladyfreckles

To me "bettering the breed" is breeding out diseases and physical disabilities. With PBs this isn't always possible or even fully realistic. I have no problem with bettering a breed by breeding for appearance on top of temperament but temperament MUST be paid attention to and I can't stand dogs with tons of rear. 

I can use Viking as an example. His personality is rock solid but his body is all over the place. The other day we were at a pet store and some little dog was yapping her head off at him. He didn't even bat an eye, he just huffed and laid down. He had a marker board fall on him and didn't even act afraid after the initial "woah a thing is falling on me". When I put the time and effort into him he learns pretty quickly. But he's not athletic, he needs a lot of training in order to stay at a proper operating level, and he is really low on his pasterns/hocks despite supplements. This came from his breeding. Despite his rock solid personality I don't really consider him to be bettering the breed.

Too many dogs out there are coming out dumb as rocks. They are easily scared and shaken up and have fear/aggressive issues (I'm not just talking GSDs--every breed). Because breeding for "aww it's cute and friendly" has somehow become common and acceptable we have a lot of really stupid dogs out there. And maybe it's a lack of education on the breeder's part, maybe it's just that some people don't care if their dogs are intelligent and the breeder knows that... it could be a lot of things. But ultimately if you're not breeding for intelligence, physical soundness and temperament... I don't think you're bettering the breed. JMO


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## Maxx

I saw a really oversized GSD (or what appeared to be a GSD - have no idea if it was purebred, probably not) at a local park today. It barked at two toy breeds that someone was walking as they went by. I had my Pom with me but I didn't want to risk anything so I didn't go near. It looked like it was going for Great Dane size or something.

I am not sure why you can't say stuff on this site. I thought a site that had a lot of breeders and 'fanciers' of the breed would have very strict views on the 'standard' or whatever. I see a lot of ads for GSDs and they're BYBers and there's no regulating breeding except by the related clubs. But, obviously, people have workarounds. 

Imho, there's too many variations. This holds true for every breed. Then people decide they'll do their own breeding and figure it would be 'cute' or 'cool' to mix breeds or create their own. My Dad wants a lab or Golden Retriever. When I do a search, I notice tons of Golden Doodles. What?!? I notice a lot of GSDs are bred with labs or Huskys or some other breed. Other GSDs look like their coat hair is way too long. 

Basically, it's essential to be on a site like this so you can figure out what to do if you want a true GSD! I would research everything and get the pedigree etc even if I don't ever intend to breed my own dog. But, it seems like a problem that few people have the idea to only breed to standard and follow the desired steps. But, genuine breeders charge over $1000 and I know that is a very controversial topic but sadly, I think it DOES play some part in what goes on. If you're a family who doesn't have much passion in for purebred dogs and you can easily buy dogs for $300 or so and you can sell puppies for $300+ each, then you can see what ultimately happens.

The breed became better in the first place because various people knew all kinds of info about the standard and was particular about which dogs breed and personality/temperament/ability/physique was important. I'm not sure what such dogs cost but now they are over $1000 and so many dogs are bred for no reason other than the puppies are cute and they can make $300x N (N of puppies). 

Just food for thought.


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## carmspack

this is becoming a real bone to pick with me -- had a little discussion while enjoying lunch with Linda Shaw , who is chosen to illustrate the breed standard .


A national breed registry , whether AKC or CanKC has a charter to protect and promote the interests of a "pure breed" , GSD in this case. They set the standard by which all dogs in competition are judged - the judges must pass an apprenticeship period , monitored, and written tests. This for conformation and obedience. 
There are written standards as to size , dimensions, character .

So that being the case --- then GSD that are bred for "personal flavour" that are not even making the attempt to fit into the parameteres of the physical standard, those that are breeding 29 inch females , 135 pounds - can do so , go knock yourself out -- but you can NOT call them GSD . They fail to resemble the standard .
So all these registries only say that the sire and dam are themselves gsd in genetics.
The name GSD has to have some meaning , some uniform expectation.


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## Whiteshepherds

carmspack said:


> A national breed registry , whether AKC or CanKC has a charter to protect and promote the interests of a "pure breed" , GSD in this case.


I understand what you're saying but I don't think the blame lies with the AKC or the CKC. In the US the GSDCA has ultimate control over the AKC registered GSD's, I'm assuming the same is true for the GSDCC in Canada.


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## ImaginaryBee

I've only read through a couple pages so far, but really think "bettering the breed" varies from breeder to breeder. 
My breeder bred a lot of working lines for local police departments. Most of his dogs were 75% German and 25% American in their pedigree. (My Shepherd is just that). For me and my family this seems to be a wonderful fit and has many fine traits from both lines.
I think those that prefer German Lines will breed according to those specifications and so on. But who is to say what is bettering the breed as a whole fact.


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## julieanna1

how about an american german shepherd registry, not AKC, that combines the best qualities of all three lines? we can measure the hip angles and orthopedics and standardize the dogs. the average family needs a healthy manageable dog. my sister has a shepherd that at 2 years of age is a cripple and can't walk up stairs and came from a reputable breeder in her area. any comments


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## Dainerra

"bettering the breed" is going to vary from person to person, as others have said. Our standard is entirely written and the written word will give everyone a slightly different mental picture of the "perfect" dog. 
The "bettering" part comes when we try to make each generation closer to that image of perfection. Every dog has faults and of course we should try to make each generation have fewer faults. 
A simple explanation


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## hunterisgreat

"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs,
this must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs." 

~Captain Max von Stephanitz


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## hunterisgreat

julieanna1 said:


> how about an american german shepherd registry, not AKC, that combines the best qualities of all three lines? we can measure the hip angles and orthopedics and standardize the dogs. the average family needs a healthy manageable dog. my sister has a shepherd that at 2 years of age is a cripple and can't walk up stairs and came from a reputable breeder in her area. any comments


The qualities that make a working line truly nice would be lost in a single breeding if mixed indiscriminately with other lines.


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## hunterisgreat

"Take this trouble for me; Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, 
for I have struggled all my life long for that aim." 

~Captain Max von Stephanitz

It's clear to me what the creators of the breed intended


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## Gwenhwyfair

eh...not so clear if you ask me. There's plenty of argument amongst the different working line people as to what a 'real' working line GSD is too.

This breed has to be the most complicated, fractured, argued over breed there is.

I was at a lab specialty helping a friend with her dogs some years ago and at the dinner get together the night before the show they were arguing a bit about standards and field vs show labs....then everyone paused for a moment. In that moment of silence one person piped up and said...'at least we are not as bad as the GSD people'. On that they all agreed whole heartedly.

At the time I didn't really understand the complete context of that moment, now I do.




hunterisgreat said:


> "Take this trouble for me; Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog,
> for I have struggled all my life long for that aim."
> 
> ~Captain Max von Stephanitz
> 
> It's clear to me what the creators of the breed intended


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## hunterisgreat

Gwenhwyfair said:


> eh...not so clear if you ask me. There's plenty of argument amongst the different working line people as to what a 'real' working line GSD is too.
> 
> This breed has to be the most complicated, fractured, argued over breed there is.
> 
> I was at a lab specialty helping a friend with her dogs some years ago and at the dinner get together the night before the show they were arguing a bit about standards and field vs show labs....then everyone paused for a moment. In that moment of silence one person piped up and said...'at least we are not as bad as the GSD people'. On that they all agreed whole heartedly.
> 
> At the time I didn't really understand the complete context of that moment, now I do.


Yes, there is, but I think we can all agree that the original intent was for the dog to be worked... not play sports, not look fancy, not win conformation shows... it was bred to work. And working ability should remain the focus of the breed.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah but 'work' is subjective within the breed too, you know that. You can't be around a group of die hard GSD owners/breeders without some sort of disagreement cropping up about what qualities they selectively breed/want. 

...and the beat goes on.



hunterisgreat said:


> Yes, there is, but I think we can all agree that the original intent was for the dog to be worked... not play sports, not look fancy, not win conformation shows... it was bred to work. And working ability should remain the focus of the breed.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Also, I'd add that the work expected of dogs during Capt. von Stephanitz's day is different from what is expected of dogs today just due to changing times, tech and human demands.


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## Andaka

To play devil's advocate for a moment, the creators of the breed also could not have envisioned what our world has become in 100 years. We now have al sorts of dog sports, conformations events, and homes were working dogs are those that herd the children not sheep. This is not a black or white situation, there is much gray. My ASL is a "working dog" -- his job is to help me deal with my disability. He helps me balance, he pulls clothes from the washer and dryer, and he picks up all sorts of dropped items. He is not a police dog or a Schutzhund dog, so does he fit your definition of a working dog?


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## hunterisgreat

Andaka said:


> To play devil's advocate for a moment, the creators of the breed also could not have envisioned what our world has become in 100 years. We now have al sorts of dog sports, conformations events, and homes were working dogs are those that herd the children not sheep. This is not a black or white situation, there is much gray. My ASL is a "working dog" -- his job is to help me deal with my disability. He helps me balance, he pulls clothes from the washer and dryer, and he picks up all sorts of dropped items. He is not a police dog or a Schutzhund dog, so does he fit your definition of a working dog?


They had dog sports, conformation events, dog shows, and such back then. Stephanitz actually *selected* his dog from a dog show.

To be clearer on what a working dog is in my opinion...
Your dog is a working dog. So is a herder, so is a police dog, so is a personal protection dog, so is a drug dog, so is a service dog, so is a dog that detects cancer in human urine.... all working. Don't care what lines it came from, if its primary purpose is working, its working dog. The aim of selective breeding should be to produce versatile utility dogs than can fill any of these roles, not only one of them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

The problem is if you are going to train a dogs to detect cancer you want to very carefully select for that trait when breeding, probably foregoing other traits. Same with SAR and HRD dogs right? It is so critical that they do their jobs optimally (specialization) that the tolerances for the 'jack of all trades' dog is low.

Not in all venues but I think that specialization tends to win out more in our time then in Capt. Von Stephanitz's time.

Hence the various 'lines' and 'sub lines' in our GSDs.



hunterisgreat said:


> They had dog sports, conformation events, dog shows, and such back then. Stephanitz actually *selected* his dog from a dog show.
> 
> To be clearer on what a working dog is in my opinion...
> Your dog is a working dog. So is a herder, so is a police dog, so is a personal protection dog, so is a drug dog, so is a service dog, so is a dog that detects cancer in human urine.... all working. Don't care what lines it came from, if its primary purpose is working, its working dog. The aim of selective breeding should be to produce versatile utility dogs than can fill any of these roles, not only one of them.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The problem is if you are going to train a dogs to detect cancer you want to very carefully select for that trait when breeding, probably foregoing other traits. Same with SAR and HRD dogs right? It is so critical that they do their jobs optimally (specialization) that the tolerances for the 'jack of all trades' dog is low.
> 
> Not in all venues but I think that specialization tends to win out more in our time then in Capt. Von Stephanitz's time.
> 
> Hence the various 'lines' and 'sub lines' in our GSDs.


A quote from an article that sums up my thoughts better than I could reproduce here:

Correct selection of the right candidate with the overall genetic makeup allows the GSD to complete the job required; the dog is somewhat natural to the task at hand and has been given the tools. Just because the dog excels at one task, does not mean he will excel at another. There are many “homes” for the GSD; find the dog that best suits the need. This thinking, though, is not breed preservation, it is breed placement. To confuse them for breeding working dogs is incorrect. 
During one conversation, I explained that the types of dogs mentioned above were the run-off from breeding the really good dogs. That great pets don’t make great police dogs, and top sport dogs aren’t always the best protectors, and that the same dog that would die to protect you might care less about when he eats or when you’ll throw his ball. They may each fulfill their individual tasks very well, but they are run-off creek beds so to speak. They are not the main rivers that supplied them. I expressed my belief that the truly great dogs possessed all of the qualities that made the others individually good at what they did. It was through breeding those great dogs that these dogs came about, and not vice versa. I explained that to breed working dogs, it is important to find the great dogs that can do it all and include them in breeding programs wherever possible. Each of the other dogs had value for sure and could be used, but the benefit was not as great and the risk larger. It reminds me of a favorite quote about training Greek warriors:
“Out of every 100 men you send me, 10 of them shouldn’t even be here! Eighty are nothing more than targets! Nine of them are real fighters, and we are happy to have them, for they the real battle make. Ah, but one….one is a warrior! And I must find him; for he will bring the others home!” 
The great dogs possess all of the things thought of when thinking of the German Shepherd Dog, including some things many people actually steer away from amazingly enough. The effects of this can be seen by many. For example, my belief has always been that certain qualities like fight drive, hardness, aggression, and power have to be protected and retained into the breeding of working dogs. Many times these qualities are left out of breeding programs because they sometimes deter from the individually tasked dogs. People become so consumed in reproducing the “creek bed dogs” that they fail the “river dogs” that created them.


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## lhczth

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The problem is if you are going to train a dogs to detect cancer you want to very carefully select for that trait when breeding, probably foregoing other traits. Same with SAR and HRD dogs right? It is so critical that they do their jobs optimally (specialization) that the tolerances for the 'jack of all trades' dog is low.


No, we should be breeding balanced utilitarian working dogs and those dogs can do the jobs that we require. The dogs one works in SchH and keeps back for breeding should be the same type of dog one would choose for SAR/HRD/Police/Detection/etc. The litters should also have a high percentage of dogs suitable for work or one is failing as a breeder of GSD.


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## lhczth

Hunter, you might what to credit the quote that you used. 

ADMIN


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes and look at how many working dog people ding SchH dogs? I read that here often (and hear it IRL too).

I understand the principles you and hunter are talking about however it's competition and market that drives selection - ultimately.

I came to this GSD world with the saying 'The German Shepherd is not the best at any one thing but is second best at everything' yet that just doesn't seem to good enough anymore and it's often reflected when you read, study here, breeder sites, talk to people, go to SchH events......the question is, what do we do with that reality?




lhczth said:


> No, we should be breeding balanced utilitarian working dogs and those dogs can do the jobs that we require. The dogs one works in SchH and keeps back for breeding should be the same type of dog one would choose for SAR/HRD/Police/Detection/etc. The litters should also have a high percentage of dogs suitable for work or one is failing as a breeder of GSD.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Link?


That is well put but is it reality? I just can no longer ignore the conflicting feed back and information I hear and see which I'm getting from many different quarters. Look at all the sub lines within the working lines. I've just never been good at ignoring reality even when it conflicts with principles (which btw, to be clear I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with). Gets me in trouble all the time too..... :crazy:




hunterisgreat said:


> A quote from an article that sums up my thoughts better than I could reproduce here:
> 
> Correct selection of the right candidate with the overall genetic makeup allows the GSD to complete the job required; the dog is somewhat natural to the task at hand and has been given the tools. Just because the dog excels at one task, does not mean he will excel at another. There are many “homes” for the GSD; find the dog that best suits the need. This thinking, though, is not breed preservation, it is breed placement. To confuse them for breeding working dogs is incorrect.
> During one conversation, I explained that the types of dogs mentioned above were the run-off from breeding the really good dogs. That great pets don’t make great police dogs, and top sport dogs aren’t always the best protectors, and that the same dog that would die to protect you might care less about when he eats or when you’ll throw his ball. They may each fulfill their individual tasks very well, but they are run-off creek beds so to speak. They are not the main rivers that supplied them. I expressed my belief that the truly great dogs possessed all of the qualities that made the others individually good at what they did. It was through breeding those great dogs that these dogs came about, and not vice versa. I explained that to breed working dogs, it is important to find the great dogs that can do it all and include them in breeding programs wherever possible. Each of the other dogs had value for sure and could be used, but the benefit was not as great and the risk larger. It reminds me of a favorite quote about training Greek warriors:
> “Out of every 100 men you send me, 10 of them shouldn’t even be here! Eighty are nothing more than targets! Nine of them are real fighters, and we are happy to have them, for they the real battle make. Ah, but one….one is a warrior! And I must find him; for he will bring the others home!”
> The great dogs possess all of the things thought of when thinking of the German Shepherd Dog, including some things many people actually steer away from amazingly enough. The effects of this can be seen by many. For example, my belief has always been that certain qualities like fight drive, hardness, aggression, and power have to be protected and retained into the breeding of working dogs. Many times these qualities are left out of breeding programs because they sometimes deter from the individually tasked dogs. People become so consumed in reproducing the “creek bed dogs” that they fail the “river dogs” that created them.


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## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> Hunter, you might what to credit the quote that you used.
> 
> ADMIN


Lol quote taken from Nate Harves at Sportwaffen K9


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## hunterisgreat

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Link?
> 
> 
> That is well put but is it reality? I just can no longer ignore the conflicting feed back and information I hear and see which I'm getting from many different quarters. Look at all the sub lines within the working lines. I've just never been good at ignoring reality even when it conflicts with principles (which btw, to be clear I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with). Gets me in trouble all the time too..... :crazy:


This is why people are hesitant of crazy sport breeders... They are missing the mark just like nervy showline breeders are... IMO A true GSD should be well suited for any working venue, even at the expense of being the best at any one one venue. Anytime you breed heavily to ONE end, all other ends are left to chaos


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## Gwenhwyfair

Let me put it this way, who is really 'bettering the breed'. The people who developed the czech lines, the WGWL, the Swiss or Belgium breeding, what about preserving the old DDR types** ? If the breed was just as it should be upon the passing of Capt.von Stephanitz why did so many people (including SLs too...) take upon themselves to select for certain/different qualities to begin with? So when we talk about preserving the breed, who of these groups is/has really done that? 

**(I know some of this was due to the iron curtain but they didn't have to breed different types and when they did they are still, now, registered as GSDS)


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## Gwenhwyfair

I hear ya...but I think the market/demand does not.

Sport people want to win, so they are going to go for the dog that will help them get titles.

SAR people need to find that injured hiker before temps get too cold at night...no playing around.

Patrol dogs have got to have that 'fight' Cliff and others talk about to 'win' against the bad guy.

That's not to say some of the '2nd best at everything' dogs don't exist but...are they really in demand?

Now this is my little ole take on it but I think we demand a lot more of our dogs then Capt. von Stephanitz's generation. When I watch videos of the SEAL teams dogs (mostly malis too I believe) what dog was expected to perform those sort of tasks back when the breed originated?



hunterisgreat said:


> This is why people are hesitant of crazy sport breeders... They are missing the mark just like nervy showline breeders are... IMO A true GSD should be well suited for any working venue, even at the expense of being the best at any one one venue. Anytime you breed heavily to ONE end, all other ends are left to chaos


----------



## hunterisgreat

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Let me put it this way, who is really 'bettering the breed'. The people who developed the czech lines, the WGWL, the Swiss or Belgium breeding, what about preserving the old DDR types** ? If the breed was just as it should be upon the passing of Capt.von Stephanitz why did so many people (including SLs too...) take upon themselves to select for certain/different qualities to begin with? So when we talk about preserving the breed, who of these groups is/has really done that?
> 
> **(I know some of this was due to the iron curtain but they didn't have to breed different types and when they did they are still, now, registered as GSDS)


Those who breed for universal working ability are the true guardians of the breed... Regardless of how they look, that they don't podium at world IPO events, etc. the breeder producing dogs that can thrive in schutzhund, or drive livestock, or smell accelerant, or subdue bad guys, or guard the kids. These folks are doing it right IMO


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## hunterisgreat

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I hear ya...but I think the market/demand does not.
> 
> Sport people want to win, so they are going to go for the dog that will help them get titles.
> 
> SAR people need to find that injured hiker before temps get too cold at night...no playing around.
> 
> Patrol dogs have got to have that 'fight' Cliff and others talk about to 'win' against the bad guy.
> 
> That's not to say some of the '2nd best at everything' dogs don't exist but...are they really in demand?
> 
> Now this is my little ole take on it but I think we demand a lot more of our dogs then Capt. von Stephanitz's generation. When I watch videos of the SEAL teams dogs (mostly malis too I believe) what dog was expected to perform those sort of tasks back when the breed originated?


I'd wager cliff would support what I've posted


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## Gwenhwyfair

What exactly have I posted here that is incorrect? Am I wrong about the trends?

I'm not disagreeing - I'm just pointing out what I've read, heard, witnessed people saying THEY want in that 'great' dog.



hunterisgreat said:


> I'd wager cliff would support what I've posted


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## Gwenhwyfair

I've gotta run...but really it's one thing to state the principles behind a breed of dog and quite another to point out what is actually going on in the market for that dog. I'm parsing the two things out because they are, IMO, different. I don't care who agrees with the principle or not, the question is..is the principle really being followed? To me, it looks like it's not. I'm not saying the principle is wrong, but what if, just what IF, the principle is outdated. I put that out as food for thought *not* as a declarative statement.


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## hunterisgreat

Gwenhwyfair said:


> What exactly have I posted here that is incorrect? Am I wrong about the trends?
> 
> I'm not disagreeing - I'm just pointing what I've read, heard, witnessed people saying THEY want in that 'great' dog.


No you're right about sport people, what show competitors want, etc... I'm just saying the essence of the breed is not to be either of those... Ferraris make amazing race cars... The suck for everyday real world use. We should make the best "everyday" working dog, not the best IPO dog, or show dog, or agility dog... Those are natural by-products of the pursuit of the best working dog


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## Gwenhwyfair

...understood and my observations (and this again, just little ole me) is people are selecting (by buying) more specialized dogs. * If* my observation is correct then the question is how will the 'everyday' working dog survive if it's not what is wanted or needed?

I don't know but one thing I've learned is that there are a LOT of different opinions about who is 'bettering the breed'. The GSD, the most complicated breed ... in the world!  



hunterisgreat said:


> No you're right about sport people, what show competitors want, etc... I'm just saying the essence of the breed is not to be either of those... Ferraris make amazing race cars... The suck for everyday real world use. We should make the best "everyday" working dog, not the best IPO dog, or show dog, or agility dog... Those are natural by-products of the pursuit of the best working dog


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## carmspack

Hunter is on target ! I support his statements. Nothing is to be gained if it is at the expense of some other quality.

Improvements can't be made in jumps after neglect . 
Improvement is actually more maintenance than anything else to have real and deep meaning, especially on a genetic level. 

the Japanese have a word for this philosophy and that is Kaizen , a word that I have earmarked for one of the key dogs in my next generations of dogs , one that will be a bit of a contemporary cornerstone .


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## hunterisgreat

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...understood and my observations (and this again, just little ole me) is people are selecting (by buying) more specialized dogs. * If* my observation is correct then the question is how will the 'everyday' working dog survive if it's not what is wanted or needed?
> 
> I don't know but one thing I've learned is that there are a LOT of different opinions about who is 'bettering the breed'. The GSD, the most complicated breed ... in the world!


When you bred ideal dogs, some puppies will be ideal for IPO, others for herding, still others for some other job. Some pups will be pretty good at everything... To preserve all these types, we breed the "pretty good at everything". If you feel IPO is the perfect judge of the dog, and only breed top sport dogs, those other attributes such as herding or conformation are eventually lost.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, absolutely, that's what happens. It happens in other venues too... if you want a top dog in any working (or sport like herding trials) the same applies. 

BTW- sort of a side bar but the reality is most people who want a dog should just get a stuffed dog over a GSD. LOL! I work with average pet owners daily. Most people just want a pet that's not going to tax them or their time too much. I'd venture to say that there are more BYBs out there producing and selling for pet homes then anything else...for those people the ideal dog is a laid back, lower energy dog that looks like a German Shepherd. I talked to a BYB who had a working line male. I asked him why don't you get that dog involved in sport/work and then start a nice program. He said because most people just want pets and couldn't handle a dog like his male. well what can I say he was speaking the truth on that count. :shrug: It sort-a got under my skin on the one hand because he didn't know the pedigree on his female but on the other hand he sells each and everyone of his puppies every time he breeds. 





hunterisgreat said:


> When you bred ideal dogs, some puppies will be ideal for IPO, others for herding, still others for some other job. Some pups will be pretty good at everything... To preserve all these types, we breed the "pretty good at everything". If you feel IPO is the perfect judge of the dog, and only breed top sport dogs, those other attributes such as herding or conformation are eventually lost.


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## dcw

Look to wolves. They don't mess around. Bettering their breed relates to greater survival. Weak or sick are rejected. The survival of the pack depends on it. Only the alpha dog of the pack is the breeder. Working ability relates directly to conformation. The interesting thing is that with all this great working ability there is also harmony within the pack. Temperments are stable, everyone knows their place. People would do well to study nature and mimic it as much as possible, if we truly want to improve our breed.


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## Blitzkrieg1

This problem will never be fixed IMO. The breed is no longer a breed its numerous sub breeds with the general title GSD.
Its a numbers game, why should a breeder bother to work or title their dogs. Bottom line is pet people are the best customer, they have few expectations and only want a pleasant pet the looks like a GSD not act like one. The majority have no clue if the dog is decent, exceptional or a waste of oxygen. Very little pressure for a seller, give them the puppy take your 1200 rinse and repeat.
As opposed to sport or working enthusiests that demand quality and will hold the breeder to account for what they recieve. The breeder has to replace pups, or gets a reputation in the small community for producing poorly. 
So yes if I was in this to make money and didnt have the know how to produce for sport work or LEO I would sell to pet homes hands down and not worry about what I produced beyond the cute factor.

Iv been to **** and back trying to find the dog you describe Hunter. The bottom line is 90% of breeders are either deluded about what they are producing, are inept, or are intentionally producing aberations for whatever reason. If I ever find that "warrior" dog Ill probably do my best to reproduce it and keep back the best progeny for myself.


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## ODINsFREKI

The Germans bred this dog to work and not look pretty. That came over time. I believe the dog should be bred for brains and not just pretty markings and perfect stance. 

Show dogs are cool and all but get a little inbred IMHO. The American GSD looks completely different than the ones my grand father and law kept after the russians took over Slovakia from the Nazi. Their dogs are lean, smaller, darker and generally smarter and more agile than an american dog if you were to give them both the same training and food. They did not have the luxury of breeding for looks, they bred the good ones and culled the bad ones. They could not afford to feed a dog that couldn't work properly.


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## volcano

The gsd as a breed is so screwed up that many breedings without titles or ofa could be considered bettering the breed. Shutzhund does not mean the dog has good temperament.


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## Mrs.K

As long as titles are the "only" thing people look at, rather than the total dog and ignore the total dog because it does not have titles or certificates, the breed is going to be doomed. All this talk about Schutzhund and that it is the only way to proof the workability of a dog... just go to the local trials and see for yourself WHAT is out there! 

So many dogs that should never even come close to a title but still getting it because the judges feel sorry and know that you most likely have to wait a whole year before you get another chance. The top handlers already knowing that they do not have any real competition because every year it is decided between those who have the money, dog material and resources to stay at the top.

Nope...titles mean nothing if every dog can actually get a title, if every dog can get a title it becomes a very expensive formality...I am with Carmen and Cliffson. Before I ever look at a title, I want to see the dog. Screw titles! 



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## Mrs.K

I do not even know how anyone can find the German Showlines pretty. Most of them (not all) are so darn ugly I wouldnt want one if you gave up the dog for free!

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## onyx'girl

Mrs.K said:


> As long as titles are the "only" thing people look at, rather than the total dog and ignore the total dog because it does not have titles or certificates, the breed is going to be doomed. All this talk about Schutzhund and that it is the only way to proof the workability of a dog... just go to the local trials and see for yourself WHAT is out there!
> 
> So many dogs that should never even come close to a title but still getting it because the judges feel sorry and know that you most likely have to wait a whole year before you get another chance. The top handlers already knowing that they do not have any real competition because every year it is decided between those who have the money, dog material and resources to stay at the top.
> 
> Nope...titles mean nothing if every dog can actually get a title, if every dog can get a title it becomes a very expensive formality...I am with Carmen and Cliffson. Before I ever look at a title, I want to see the dog. Screw titles!


And some really great dogs have inept handlers so getting a title won't happen, lol....


> I do not even know how anyone can find the German Showlines pretty. Most of them (not all) are so darn ugly I wouldnt want one if you gave up the dog for free!


They are all getting so cookie cutter, hard to tell one from the next.


----------



## wildo

hunterisgreat; said:


> Ferraris make amazing race cars... The suck for everyday real world use. We should make the best "everyday" working dog, not the best IPO dog, or show dog, or agility dog... Those are natural by-products of the pursuit of the best working dog


The best IPO, show, or agility dog is a natural by-product of the pursuit of the best "every day" working dog? That's laughable. Since when will a Honda Civic beat a Ferrari around a track? 


No, the best "all around" working dog will absolutely not be the best IPO dog- that's why there are prey monster sport lines out there.
No, the best "all around" working dog will absolutely not be the best show dog- that's why there are show lines out there.
And, LOL, no, the best "all around" working dog will _absolutely_ not be the best agility dog. That's why there are Malinois and Border Collies.
The best all around working dog, the "jack of all trades, master of none" type GSD will be exactly that. A compromise in all departments with the tradeoff of utilitarian usefulness.


----------



## Packen

volcano said:


> The gsd as a breed is so screwed up that many breedings without titles or ofa could be considered bettering the breed. Shutzhund does not mean the dog has good temperament.


This is by far the best excuse used by some breeders to justify breeding without doing the hard work that goes in proper training and competition. All in the name of "bettering the breed"  and it will keep on working as long as people fall for it.


----------



## mycobraracr

Titles tell me the breeder is out there working the dogs. The title itself doesn't say much about the dog, but the journey getting there can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about it. Doesn't really matter what venue. Once a breeder has that information what they chose to do with it comes down to their goals and ethics.


----------



## GatorDog

I keep hearing that titles mean nothing because it's so easy to get them, but the trend is that those statements are more than likely coming from someone who doesn't have a titled dog...If it's soooo easy to get, then why doesn't everyone with a GSD have a dog with an IPO1? Or an IPO3 at that? I find that it often leads to the excuse that driving is too far or whatever, but again, if it is so easy, why do you need to practice so often for trial? If it was sooo easy and anyone could get it, then why don't you just go out there one weekend and shoot for your IPO1?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

The breed was developed as a working breed. Originally the work was herding. The need for herding fell away and the founder marketed and bred the dog for use as a police and military dog, which today has numerous applications such as explosive/drug detection, apprehension, etc. To better the breed, stop breeding show dogs, BYB's, pets or any breeding where the health and the working ability of the dog has not been evaluated by a knowledgable person. This will never happen and the breed will never recover.


----------



## LARHAGE

Mrs.K said:


> I do not even know how anyone can find the German Showlines pretty. Most of them (not all) are so darn ugly I wouldnt want one if you gave up the dog for free!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Some of us would say the same for working lines, to each his own.


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> I do not even know how anyone can find the German Showlines pretty. Most of them (not all) are so darn ugly I wouldnt want one if you gave up the dog for free!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Do you have Asperger's disease?


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Do you have Asperger's disease?


Nope! 

By the way, I am the first to say that my own dog aint pretty but she can work and I love her for that. 

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----------



## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> And some really great dogs have inept handlers so getting a title won't happen, lol....
> 
> They are all getting so cookie cutter, hard to tell one from the next.


Yup, mine for example. Haha

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----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Nope!
> 
> By the way, I am the first to say that my own dog aint pretty but she can work and I love her for that.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thought I would try to give you the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Mrs.K

wildo said:


> The best IPO, show, or agility dog is a natural by-product of the pursuit of the best "every day" working dog? That's laughable. Since when will a Honda Civic beat a Ferrari around a track?
> 
> 
> No, the best "all around" working dog will absolutely not be the best IPO dog- that's why there are prey monster sport lines out there.
> No, the best "all around" working dog will absolutely not be the best show dog- that's why there are show lines out there.
> And, LOL, no, the best "all around" working dog will _absolutely_ not be the best agility dog. That's why there are Malinois and Border Collies.
> The best all around working dog, the "jack of all trades, master of none" type GSD will be exactly that. A compromise in all departments with the tradeoff of utilitarian usefulness.


I applaud you. I do not think anyone else could have said it any better! 

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----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> By the time people can afford a corvette, all they need is a cavalier engine.


I love this!!!! Did you make it up or read it somewhere?


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----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> I love this!!!! Did you make it up or read it somewhere?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I had to go back and look at it in context. Freestep said something about a putting a cavelier engine in a corvette -- it's no longer a corvette, and I responded to his analogy. Which means I certainly didn't read it anywhere. But, that was a year ago!


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> I had to go back and look at it in context. Freestep said something about a putting a cavelier engine in a corvette -- it's no longer a corvette, and I responded to his analogy. Which means I certainly didn't read it anywhere. But, that was a year ago!


I know but if doesn't make it any less amazing))))) just such a good observation on life and put into good words. 

I always enjoy reading things like this. 


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----------



## LARHAGE

Mrs.K said:


> Nope!
> 
> By the way, I am the first to say that my own dog aint pretty but she can work and I love her for that.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Well my dog is gorgeous and works just fine for me, just because you don't like Showlines doesn't mean you need to constantly be throwing crap at them, the parroted idiocy is getting old and all you do is piss off people that never say anything bad about your dogs, for Christ's sakes why not just show us the same respect? By the way, my ugly worthless Showline has a son who just graduated from Leader Dog training and is a real working dog making an actual real life difference in somebody's life!!!


----------



## Packen

Irreputable breeders and cat fights, gotta luv it!


----------



## volcano

When people dont like showlines its not because of how they look. My Czech line pup clearly had the highest drive in our puppy class, the other dogs were kinda dull. Akc is happy with those dull type dogs.


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## Mrs.K

LARHAGE said:


> Well my dog is gorgeous and works just fine for me, just because you don't like Showlines doesn't mean you need to constantly be throwing crap at them, the parroted idiocy is getting old and all you do is piss off people that never say anything bad about your dogs, for Christ's sakes why not just show us the same respect? By the way, my ugly worthless Showline has a son who just graduated from Leader Dog training and is a real working dog making an actual real life difference in somebody's life!!!


No, the only idiocy is that the VDH is promoting THIS as the German Shepherd and uses an extreme male and female as example of what the German Shepherd is supposed to look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlrrghwbEw8

No word about IPO or SchH... they may show it but there is not a single word about it. It's all about obedience and agility these days and I am not the only one seeing a tendency with the VDH. Same goes for the Malinois, Rottweiler and Doberman. SchH is out!

This is not "my" German Shepherd. You may love your Showdog, which is why I SPECIFICALLY added in exclamation marks (not all of them) which you, like always, tend to ignore or refuse to see. If you feel offended, that's not my problem.


----------



## LARHAGE

Mrs.K said:


> No, the only idiocy is that the VDH is promoting THIS as the German Shepherd and uses an extreme male and female as example of what the German Shepherd is supposed to look like.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlrrghwbEw8
> 
> No word about IPO or SchH... they may show it but there is not a single word about it. It's all about obedience and agility these days and I am not the only one seeing a tendency with the VDH. Same goes for the Malinois, Rottweiler and Doberman. SchH is out!
> 
> This is not "my" German Shepherd. You may love your Showdog, which is why I SPECIFICALLY added in exclamation marks (not all of them) which you, like always, tend to ignore or refuse to see. If you feel offended, that's not my problem.



And what does agility and obedience have to do with you saying how could anyone find Showlines attractive? It was a stupid rude statement and I don't care what you think or what your ideals are, the facts are there are lots of people on this board with lots of different lines, there are lots of problems in the breed as there are in any breed, but contrary to popular belief they aren't all the faults of the Showlines , there are plenty nervy, over the top working lines that aren't worth a plugged nickle, that is a fact, no breed is perfect and never will be as perfection is subjective, it's as simple as that.


----------



## Mrs.K

If that is the way you feel, more power to you because I just don't care if you think that I am rude. At least I'm honest and you know exactly where I stand. And yes, most Showlines are hideous, just like any other extreme. But hey... as long as extremes are what is wanted we have people breeding Monster Shepherds like in Asian Countries that have NOTHING in common with the Shepherd as we know it. So let's continue to breed extremes, monster mastiff heads and roaches!


----------



## LARHAGE

Well that is your opinion, nothing more nothing less, most Showlines are not hideous , though I guess there are people like you that think Marty Feldman is better looking than George Clooney, to each there own.


----------



## Mrs.K

Oh, and btw. I could care less if a dog was showline or working line if it is a good dog its a good dog. If there was a goldendoodle with nalas drive and temperament I would have my hands so fast on that dog your head would spin. 
Pretty not pretty...in the grand scheme all that matters is workability, structure and health. I believe it was Lisa that said she breeds to preserve the breed. If I would breed I would breed for that reason and not to better. 
Bettering has caused the breed to go to crazy extremes, extremes that are destroying the breed, and even if you have that jack of all trades you get trapped into those extremes because the health issues are locked in the breed. So you still end up having to deal with the issues which has led me to the point to look at the dog as total dog and not depend on the breed itself. 

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----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Not many people really want what wildo talked about though, the golden middle dog that is not the best at one thing but 2nd best at everything. 1st place in sport *or* work is what is sought. I think as a society we've become increasingly demanding wrt performance.

Nor do I think *most* people want some sort of Rambo dog (see chip's last post)...I don't think Capt Von Stephanitz imagined his GSD jumping out of helicopters as part of the Navy Seal team either. My grandfather had GSDs while Capt von Stephanitz was still alive and they were already changing in size/structure while he was alive.

So.....utility = what the free market is seeking and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Those things change over time. 

I'm not a fan of extremes on either side.....I don't like some of the WGSL males that are starting to look like bears (those heads!), (I do think the moderate SL dogs are very nice) and I don't like some of the WLs that lean more and more to a mali type conformation either.

But that's just little ole me.


----------



## Mrs.K

LARHAGE said:


> Well that is your opinion, nothing more nothing less, most Showlines are not hideous , though I guess there are people like you that think Marty Feldman is better looking than George Clooney, to each there own.


I don't care for either, gimme a Jason Statham, Till Schweiger and we are talking.


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## Gwenhwyfair

IMHO the best looking guys who can actually work (hehehe  ) are on HGTV.


----------



## mycobraracr

One thing I struggle with, is if one is breeding to "preserve" the breed, who is buying those puppies? Sport people aren't going to buy them because they want a mal in a gsd body and show people don't want them because they may not all be B&T or walk on their hocks. So where do these puppies go? Pet homes? Is that really going to preserve anything? I keep saying that when I start breeding I want to breed "true utilitarian dogs", but what I find is, that's not what I'm really attracted to. I'm a believer that actions speak louder than words and I notice the dogs I personally purchase are not "true utilitarian's".


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Now that's an honest post!

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

(...but from reading your posts you do value a dog with a broader scope (genetic biddability and such) and I hope I can tap your shoulder for some advice on breeders should I pursue my goal of getting a WL in the future.  )




mycobraracr said:


> One thing I struggle with, is if one is breeding to "preserve" the breed, who is buying those puppies? Sport people aren't going to buy them because they want a mal in a gsd body and show people don't want them because they may not all be B&T or walk on their hocks. So where do these puppies go? Pet homes? Is that really going to preserve anything? I keep saying that when I start breeding I want to breed "true utilitarian dogs", but what I find is, that's not what I'm really attracted to. I'm a believer that actions speak louder than words and I notice the dogs I personally purchase are not "true utilitarian's".


----------



## Mrs.K

mycobraracr said:


> One thing I struggle with, is if one is breeding to "preserve" the breed, who is buying those puppies? Sport people aren't going to buy them because they want a mal in a gsd body and show people don't want them because they may not all be B&T or walk on their hocks. So where do these puppies go? Pet homes? Is that really going to preserve anything? I keep saying that when I start breeding I want to breed "true utilitarian dogs", but what I find is, that's not what I'm really attracted to. I'm a believer that actions speak louder than words and I notice the dogs I personally purchase are not "true utilitarian's".


You like Nala, don't you? She IS utilitarian despite her sportiness. She's hard as a rock, put pressure on her and she loves it even more. No matter what you would start with that dog, she would always be a top performer and truly excel be it the real world or sport. 

Breeding dogs like her is preserving the breed. 
Don't think of preserving the breed as a standstill or second grade dogs.


----------



## Andaka

volcano said:


> When people dont like showlines its not because of how they look. My Czech line pup clearly had the highest drive in our puppy class, the other dogs were kinda dull. Akc is happy with those dull type dogs.


My AKC dog is anything but dull. In my agility class, the working line dog makes mistakes due to being in such a hurry, where my slightly slower dog is more careful. But he has plenty of drive.


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## mycobraracr

Mrs.K said:


> You like Nala, don't you? She IS utilitarian despite her sportiness. She's hard as a rock, put pressure on her and she loves it even more. No matter what you would start with that dog, she would always be a top performer and truly excel be it the real world or sport.
> 
> Breeding dogs like her is preserving the breed.
> Don't think of preserving the breed as a standstill or second grade dogs.



I do like Nala. Can you truly say she's a utilitarian though? I'm asking as you know her far better than me. Do you think she would be happy as a service animal? I she can work her tail off in bite work or SAR. I know she settles nice and is a great family dog. Those are all traits I look for. She's a strong bitch and I like it. I'm just trying to broaden the spectrum a bit to all the jobs the gsd once had. 


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## Gwenhwyfair

awww man, no love for the Kitchen Cousins? 

Now I'm hurt. :laugh:


----------



## Mrs.K

Gwenhwyfair said:


> IMHO the best looking guys who can actually work (hehehe  ) are on HGTV.


Now that is beauty and utility combined. Nothing wrong with having both.  That's a Showline I'd own.


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## Mrs.K

mycobraracr said:


> I do like Nala. Can you truly say she's a utilitarian though? I'm asking as you know her far better than me. Do you think she would be happy as a service animal? I she can work her tail off in bite work or SAR. I know she settles nice and is a great family dog. Those are all traits I look for. She's a strong bitch and I like it. I'm just trying to broaden the spectrum a bit to all the jobs the gsd once had.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


A dog like her absolutely loves biting but above all, it's working with you that is more important. She wouldn't miss the bitework as long as she can work for and with you.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Not many people really want what wildo talked about though, the golden middle dog that is not the best at one thing but 2nd best at everything. 1st place in sport *or* work is what is sought. I think as a society we've become increasingly demanding wrt performance.


I don't think golden middle means the dog is always second best in competition, it means the dog is balanced. It doesn't have to be exercised 5 hours a day before it will settle but will work all day long if you need it to. 
It can go from tracking to agility and on to formal obedience etc. without a problem because isn't bred for extremes. 
How well that kind of dog does in competition depends as much on its trainer/handler as the dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I agree there's a lot of variables for sure but parsing this out, *just* from the genetic potential side of it we humans are very competitive.

Whether it be 'real' work or sport people don't compete to be 2nd best, they compete for the top awards, results and recognition.

This drives the genetic selection more so then other factors.

In a more general sense when I first started learning about all these divisions within the breed I'd read the different points of view and think, 'well that makes sense' then someone would come along and argue from another POV and on and on.

At the end of the day I think there is a dog to fit everyone's desire/needs.

From Rambo dogs to goldens with GSD coats and everything in the middle.

So if we average it out, there's the golden middle. IMO.

The argument really is about who gets to 'own' the name Real German Shepherd Dog and that's an argument that won't ever be settled.




Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't think golden middle means the dog is always second best in competition, it means the dog is balanced. It doesn't have to be exercised 5 hours a day before it will settle but will work all day long if you need it to.
> It can go from tracking to agility and on to formal obedience etc. without a problem because isn't bred for extremes.
> How well that kind of dog does in competition depends as much on its trainer/handler as the dog.


----------



## wildo

Whiteshepherds said:


> *I don't think golden middle means the dog is always second best in competition*, it means the dog is balanced. It doesn't have to be exercised 5 hours a day before it will settle but will work all day long if you need it to.
> It can go from tracking to agility and on to formal obedience etc. without a problem because isn't bred for extremes.
> How well that kind of dog does in competition depends as much on its trainer/handler as the dog.


I guess it just depends on what your goals are. The "well balanced GSD" you describe above is the same ones I've watched run agility for a couple years now. What I find is that they are slow. Boringly slow. Some say "thoughtful;" I say simply slow. The well balanced German Shepherd Dog you describe is simply not well suited for _winning_ agility competitions. Placing well, if that's your goal, is certainly achievable- but winning first place? Not happening- typically. And once again- this is the very reason that "sport" dogs exist.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Hehehe!

Anyone need their kitchen updated?  

If my guy weren't such a handy fellow I'd raise my hand! 



Mrs.K said:


> Now that is beauty and utility combined. Nothing wrong with having both.  That's a Showline I'd own.


----------



## selzer

Most show lines are not hideous, Mrs. K, they may be hideous in your eyes, but the vast majority of people do not think so. 

Saying, I think they are hideous or in my opinion they are hideous, is different than saying they are hideous. It won't win you any friends, but there is a difference between stating your opinion, and stating things as though they are fact. I think your statements about showlines on here have been disgustingly rude to a good number of people on the board who own them, and off as well.

The rest of us just say something like they aren't my type, or, better yet, I prefer the ________ lines. Some people like big blocky heads, some people like a more angulated dog. Some like the flashy trot, and some like a more level top line. You can say all of that without calling all the show line dogs hideous. 

Usually when people make hurtful comments, it is because they do not respect themselves. In general, it is easier for many people to take a negative comment about themselves than they are able to take one about their children or dogs. Would you say, "Oh, yours is the boy with the red hair and freckles, ugly little thing isn't he?" There is being honest, and there is flat out rude, hurtful statements, that really require some type of mental diagnosis to be overlooked. One should at least be goaded into saying something so unnecessary and arrogant about people's pets.


----------



## selzer

wildo said:


> I guess it just depends on what your goals are. The "well balanced GSD" you describe above is the same ones I've watched run agility for a couple years now. What I find is that they are slow. Boringly slow. Some say "thoughtful;" I say simply slow. The well balanced German Shepherd Dog you describe is simply not well suited for _winning_ agility competitions. Placing well, if that's your goal, is certainly achievable- but winning first place? Not happening- typically. And once again- this is the very reason that "sport" dogs exist.


If you want to win at agility, don't buy a Leonberger. They can do it, but the courses are designed for a smaller, sharp, crisp breed like a border collie. I think that a shepherd who beats top ranking border collies in agility wouldn't be correct as GSDs. Border Collies are a different breed with it's own issues and personally, if GSDs were acting like BCs I think that would be terrible. BCs even herd differently than GSDs. BCs are not bred to guard the sheep, just to move them. It is a different beast altogether, and trying to build GSDs to whip BCs at their game, at a sport they are better designed to compete in just doesn't make sense because you will do that by sacrificing what makes the GSD a GSD.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Most show lines are not hideous, Mrs. K, they may be hideous in your eyes, but the vast majority of people do not think so.
> 
> Saying, I think they are hideous or in my opinion they are hideous, is different than saying they are hideous. It won't win you any friends, but there is a difference between stating your opinion, and stating things as though they are fact. I think your statements about showlines on here have been disgustingly rude to a good number of people on the board who own them, and off as well.
> 
> The rest of us just say something like they aren't my type, or, better yet, I prefer the ________ lines. Some people like big blocky heads, some people like a more angulated dog. Some like the flashy trot, and some like a more level top line. You can say all of that without calling all the show line dogs hideous.
> 
> Usually when people make hurtful comments, it is because they do not respect themselves. In general, it is easier for many people to take a negative comment about themselves than they are able to take one about their children or dogs. Would you say, "Oh, yours is the boy with the red hair and freckles, ugly little thing isn't he?" There is being honest, and there is flat out rude, hurtful statements, that really require some type of mental diagnosis to be overlooked. One should at least be goaded into saying something so unnecessary and arrogant about people's pets.


Selzer, I am not going to defend myself over and over because people tend to ignore it anyway and read what they want. If anyone would call my dogs hideous or working lines in general in hideous... guess what, I don't care and people on this forum should KNOW that by now. Especially someone like you, or Larharge should know by now. All three of us are on this forum long enough and it's not the first time I said that I do not like the look of Showlines and that I personally find most (not all) hideous simply because a lot of GERMAN Showlines are stacked and bred to the extreme. So certain upset people should seriously get over themselves if they are still upset and offended by that. 

Whereas I have to admit that American Showlines truly seem to go back to more moderate dogs. And again, I am pretty sure that you know that something like that doesn't come lightly over my lips. 

The profit that is made with China is currently more important than moderate dogs with WGSL...


----------



## gsdlover91

This thread is basically 11 pages of ripping on showlines, and yeah is pretty hurtful to those who own them. I like both SL and WL and try to ignore all the crap SL dogs get on the forum, but when people go and make blanket statements that showlines are "dull" and "hideous" it makes me and my dog feel pretty unwelcome on this forum. I actually could not believe some of the things people have said on this thread about showline dogs. These are peoples dogs. I know my dog is far from dull, but maybe he's considered 'dull' because what, hes doesnt have EXTREME drive? Well, I guess so then. My dog can still work, and do jobs, without that. He has the temperament. He can do IPO, as well, but no, he wont be number one, but he CAN do it. He actually can do anything thrown at him. I wish people would stop generalizing these dogs. It gets old. I never see SL people bashing other lines like this, but yet it's a given that ill see WL people putting down other lines and making everyone else feel inferior for owning anything but. (Say all you want that thats not what your trying to do, but thats how it comes off) All lines have their strengths and weaknesses, to each their own. 



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## wildo

selzer;[URL="javascript:void(0)" said:


> 4150906[/URL]]If you want to win at agility, don't buy a Leonberger. They can do it, but the courses are designed for a smaller, sharp, crisp breed like a border collie. I think that a shepherd who beats top ranking border collies in agility wouldn't be correct as GSDs. Border Collies are a different breed with it's own issues and personally, if GSDs were acting like BCs I think that would be terrible. BCs even herd differently than GSDs. BCs are not bred to guard the sheep, just to move them. It is a different beast altogether, and trying to build GSDs to whip BCs at their game, at a sport they are better designed to compete in just doesn't make sense because you will do that by sacrificing what makes the GSD a GSD.


Yes... that was kind of the point. Good on you for missing it entirely. _Once again_- clearly demonstrated the need (or at least desire) for "sport bred" GSDs. BTW- my GSD regularly beats BCs at agility; she'd fail miserably at SchH though.


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## Mrs.K

It's not only ripping on Showlines! Again, people only read what they want. It's ripping on titles and therefor on Working lines too. 

Working lines are just as bad as Showlines especially when the main aspect lies on profit and no longer on the dogs!


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## Gwenhwyfair

*NOooooo!!* The German's aren't allowing that influence are they?

gawd, that just made me sick to my stomach.


They can buy BMWs and Mercedes cars. Let the Chinese breed their own dragon dogs or lion dogs or whatever, leave the GSD alone! 





Mrs.K said:


> <snipped>
> 
> The profit that is made with China is currently more important than moderate dogs with WGSL...


----------



## selzer

wildo said:


> Yes... that was kind of the point. Good on you for missing it entirely. _Once again_- clearly demonstrated the need (or at least desire) for "sport bred" GSDs. BTW- my GSD regularly beats BCs at agility; she'd fail miserably at SchH though.


SchH is the end all be all for GSDs on this forum, but the fact is that not every dog of ANY line will excel at it. It makes better sense to find a venue that you and the dog are comfortable with, then to pound square pegs into round holes. 

I have a dog who is schH titled, and she is every bit as much of a dog as my other dogs. She has a sweet temperament, and I can trust her around the kids, just like my other girls. She is a little less biddible, and a little more difficult to train than my other girls, and she is more weenie about the lawn mower and television, but otherwise, she is very much the same as all my untitled (in SchH) girls.


----------



## wildo

selzer; said:


> I think that a shepherd who beats top ranking border collies in agility wouldn't be correct as GSDs.


Correct based on what definition? There are plenty of very, very fast GSDs out there doing agility that look every bit the part. (Ex1. Ex2. Ex3.)


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## Mrs.K

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *NOooooo!!* The German's aren't allowing that influence are they?
> 
> gawd, that just made me sick to my stomach.
> 
> 
> They can buy BMWs and Mercedes cars. Let the Chinese breed their own dragon dogs or lion dogs or whatever, leave the GSD alone!


It's been going on for years and there have been quite a few scandals about dogs that have been "promised" to China by certain people BEFORE the owner of the dog even knew about it. 

Dogs have been going to China for hundreds of thousands of Euros. And the Scandals that came to light and all that corruption not only in the Showline Scene but also in the working line scene (mainly bought titles) is the reason why the "SV Initative Group" was formed working against corruption.


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## dogfaeries

I'm late to this party, and only have experience with American show lines. I've been trying for the last 3 years to wrap my head around what a "real" GSD is (and does). In a nutshell, what IS that?? 

I am seriously confused. When I was a teenager, I had a black and silver GSD (Haley). I trained her in obedience, and I showed her in AKC conformation. She was very smart, eager to do _anything_, and if she thought something was "off" with someone, she watched that person like a hawk. No one questioned her being a "real" GSD. 

My dog Carly is _very_ much like my old dog Haley, but the general consensus of this forum is that she couldn't possibly be a "real" GSD because she is an ASL (and an AKC Ch at that!). I'm also confused when people talk about getting titles on dogs. AKC conformation champion? I'm not even going to go there. Obedience is only "good enough" if you get a UDX. Anything less is worthless. Herding titles? Stupid, unless it's a herding champion, and even then, if your dog isn't working 200+ sheep, it isn't really herding. Rally, advanced or otherwise, is apparently a complete waste of time. Agility? Only if you are able to beat the border collies. I guess what I am getting at is the idea that if your dog isn't doing things at a very high level, it just plain _does not count_. And it ALL is negated if your dog isn't doing bitework on some level. 

This is what I am reading here. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Carriesue

Agree wholeheartedly with Diane. 

You have to know, unless you're socially inept, that in fact(and not in your opinion) that SL's ARE hideous is going to get people angry with you. So not sure why you're getting defensive.

My dog is half SL and half WL so I don't fit in anywhere on this forum and I've been made to feel many times(not just in this thread) that my dog is inferior and not a real GSD. He doesn't walk on his hocks, he doesn't have a bear head... In fact he gets called a female all the time. The fact that he has lots of drive, has proven his ability to work(sheep) and that he in fact loves to work is all negated by the fact that he's black and red and LC to boot! It's just silly and ridiculous.

I have no issues with WL's, I've never thought once that they were ugly... I think they're quite striking in fact. My issues lie with the WL snobs that love to bash all other lines completely ignoring the fact that some WL's are bred for extremes and color(the in hip dark sables right now) just like some SL's.

I'm not sure the breed stands of chance of 'betterment' if we all bicker and remain divided.


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## Whiteshepherds

dogfaeries said:


> I'm also confused when people talk about getting titles on dogs.
> I guess what I am getting at is the idea that if your dog isn't doing things at a very high level, it just plain _does not count_. And it ALL is negated if your dog isn't doing bitework on some level.
> 
> This is what I am reading here. Correct me if I am wrong.


You're getting the hang of it, it gets really weird.


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## Jack's Dad

I've said it before but will repeat. There has to be something to test GSDs that will be used for breeding. A temperament test of sorts.

In the US only a a small fraction of those who own these dogs are involved in IPO/Schutzhund. It is hard to fathom that only the titled ones are worth breeding.

And the German version wellllll.


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## dogfaeries

Jack's Dad said:


> I've said it before but will repeat. There has to be something to test GSDs that will be used for breeding. A temperament test of sorts.
> 
> In the US only a a small fraction of those who own these dogs are involved in IPO/Schutzhund. It is hard to fathom that only the titled ones are worth breeding.
> 
> And the German version wellllll.


And from what I read _repeatedly_ on this forum, not even those titled in IPO/Schutzhund should be bred, since the helpers go easy on them, and too many dogs have titles that don't deserve them. (I'm just repeating what I continually read here). I have no idea if that is true or not. Just like a large amount of people on this forum have never even seen a showline in person, and make assumptions about them.


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## Mrs.K

Carriesue said:


> Agree wholeheartedly with Diane.
> 
> You have to know, unless you're socially inept, that in fact(and not in your opinion) that SL's ARE hideous is going to get people angry with you. So not sure why you're getting defensive.
> 
> My dog is half SL and half WL so I don't fit in anywhere on this forum and I've been made to feel many times(not just in this thread) that my dog is inferior and not a real GSD. He doesn't walk on his hocks, he doesn't have a bear head... In fact he gets called a female all the time. The fact that he has lots of drive, has proven his ability to work(sheep) and that he in fact loves to work is all negated by the fact that he's black and red and LC to boot! It's just silly and ridiculous.
> 
> I have no issues with WL's, I've never thought once that they were ugly... I think they're quite striking in fact. My issues lie with the WL snobs that love to bash all other lines completely ignoring the fact that some WL's are bred for extremes and color(the in hip dark sables right now) just like some SL's.
> 
> I'm not sure the breed stands of chance of 'betterment' if we all bicker and remain divided.


You may not believe it, one of Americas successful and controversial handlers used to handle a WGSL/WGWL mix. 

That dog went to the Bundessiegerpruefung as one of the youngest dogs ever handled at the BSP handled by a close friend of my parents (knew the dog personally since I watched him train ever since I can remember), he then was sold to the USA. He won the Nationals (I believe twice and also placed 2nd in following years), he went to the WUSV a total of three times and I remember from the top of my head that he placed 2nd one year and 3rd the following year. 

Again, a good dog is a good dog, no matter if Showline or not and you know what? He had very little progeny in Germany because even back then, people were weary about WL/SL dogs. Not my dad though. Before he was shipped to the US, he basically sired one of our females right there in Frankfurt on the Airport...

So yeah, who cares if it is a WGSL/WGWL mix... it's a GSD, period! 

My mom used to handle a Showline in her early years. If that dog only made 98 points in protection she was like "Something ain't right..."


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## Jack's Dad

My point was if you have a crazy nerve bag regardless of the line, then you have a problem. If you have a dog with poor physical health you have a problem regardless of line, or color.

The SV breed standard has this itty-bitty paragraph on character that leaves itself open to interpretation. Then spends a great deal of time on physical characteristics.

I don't care what line people have if they can't take it out in public or have to manage it for life because of SA,FA,HA,DA etc etc etc. Who wants a dog you can't have around your kids.


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## gsdlover91

Jack's Dad said:


> My point was if you have a crazy nerve bag regardless of the line, then you have a problem. If you have a dog with poor physical health you have a problem regardless of line, or color.
> 
> The SV breed standard has this itty-bitty paragraph on character that leaves itself open to interpretation. Then spends a great deal of time on physical characteristics.
> 
> *I don't care what line people have if they can't take it out in public or have to manage it for life because of SA,FA,HA,DA etc etc etc. Who wants a dog you can't have around your kids.*


I agree with this.


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## marbury

This has been very entertaining and enlightening. Thanks so much for the discourse thus far! I'm excited to see where it keeps going.


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## JanaeUlva

GatorDog said:


> I keep hearing that titles mean nothing because it's so easy to get them, but the trend is that those statements are more than likely coming from someone who doesn't have a titled dog...If it's soooo easy to get, then why doesn't everyone with a GSD have a dog with an IPO1? Or an IPO3 at that? I find that it often leads to the excuse that driving is too far or whatever, but again, if it is so easy, why do you need to practice so often for trial? If it was sooo easy and anyone could get it, then why don't you just go out there one weekend and shoot for your IPO1?


Yeah, in my experience, I see more dogs and/or trainers wash out than succeed and that is just club Sch titles. Also, a club title versus a regional title versus a national title versus a world title runs the gamut of dog qualities and yes the trainer is important in the ultimate success. But if the dog doesn't have it even a great trainer can only wring out so much.


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## MilesNY

Better the breed.... I believe in first defining what it is you believe a shepherd should be, and that will vary from person to person. Then go to breeders who produce what it is you find ideal. There is no breeding police, and there never will be. There is a certain amount of buyer responsibility here. There is certainly room for more than one type.

I came to GSDs from border collies. I will never purchase a border collie from anybody not breeding for working sheepdogs. That's my ideals. People breeding sporter collies, Barbie collies, etc are still going to breed. I don't waste my time hating on them. There is room for everyone and if someone wants a border collie it is on them to research and find where they feel comfortable purchasing. At the end of the day I know I can still find my type of breeders or just goto rescue.

I know people hate it or don't want to accept it but this is reality. There are several types of GSDs, buyer beware or educated. And breeders follow your beliefs as far was what you produce, I am not a idiot, I can do my own research and decide if I like your dogs and what you are producing. I wish people would stop living in fantasy land... The same place where people who say "oh my dog could be a great schutzhund dog" live. Either get on the field and prove it and stop making excuses or stop making comments. 

Sorry rant over, continue to argue about which GSD is the "true GSD" instead of the reality that there is more than one and that is perfectly ok. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Packen

There are 2 sales tactics that are highly successful,

1. Titles mean nothing but I heard so and so say the dog is better than sliced bread so he is ok to breed. People buy this.
2. Some breeders invest in buying titles for their dogs by sending them to get minimal training and get passed by a crooked judge (or buy such titled dogs). This works big time as buyers believe the stud and dam are highly capable.

Off course same breeders could try to HOT title a dog themselves but that would require a real dog and real talent + a lot of time so why waste time/$$ and wash out a lot of weaker dogs? Lets just short circuit the proven system and make a quick buck! Works every time as there are many that fall for it and will continue to believe it. Pretty simple.


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## volcano

When I said I saw dull dogs I mean like on recall they jogged, and on down stay they laid sideways and didnt even jump up on release. I stopped going to that gsd club, it may be the trainers that did it.


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## Chip Blasiole

The Martin brothers of Germany, sold out the breed in the 1960's-1970's, which led to its demise. They created the split into working and show lines and sold the "pretty" black and red cookie cutter dogs to places like Japan for huge sums of money. As a result, important genetics were lost. Dogs like the vom Lierberg line, with old style working ability fell away and the kennels like Wienerau and Wildsteiger Land became popular. The real German Shepherd comes from working lines because it was developed as a working dog not a show dog. The vast majority of breeders in Germany are show breeders and they are not going to give up their profits, even at the expense of the breed. It is easy to put a schH title on a dog in Germany. Highline dogs can have good prey drive and good nerves, but generally lack the other traits that make for a strong military or police dog, like fighting instincts, hunt drive, etc. IMO, these traits are also being bred away from because schH doesn't require/assess for them. So even in the working lines these days, you find problems with nerves, and drive issues.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Not a rant, rather a good post.


It's how the free market works. Can't have a free market and then dictate to others what to produce. If you want a free market you have to accept variances like this.

The *only* thing that can be done is help educate people to at least stay away from puppy millers and some of the extremes which may cause near or crippling health issues. 




MilesNY said:


> Better the breed.... I believe in first defining what it is you believe a shepherd should be, and that will vary from person to person. Then go to breeders who produce what it is you find ideal. There is no breeding police, and there never will be. There is a certain amount of buyer responsibility here. There is certainly room for more than one type.
> 
> I came to GSDs from border collies. I will never purchase a border collie from anybody not breeding for working sheepdogs. That's my ideals. People breeding sporter collies, Barbie collies, etc are still going to breed. I don't waste my time hating on them. There is room for everyone and if someone wants a border collie it is on them to research and find where they feel comfortable purchasing. At the end of the day I know I can still find my type of breeders or just goto rescue.
> 
> I know people hate it or don't want to accept it but this is reality. There are several types of GSDs, buyer beware or educated. And breeders follow your beliefs as far was what you produce, I am not a idiot, I can do my own research and decide if I like your dogs and what you are producing. I wish people would stop living in fantasy land... The same place where people who say "oh my dog could be a great schutzhund dog" live. Either get on the field and prove it and stop making excuses or stop making comments.
> 
> Sorry rant over, continue to argue about which GSD is the "true GSD" instead of *the reality that there is more than one and that is perfectly ok*.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Mrs.K

Chip Blasiole said:


> The Martin brothers of Germany, sold out the breed in the 1960's-1970's, which led to its demise. They created the split into working and show lines and sold the "pretty" black and red cookie cutter dogs to places like Japan for huge sums of money. As a result, important genetics were lost. Dogs like the vom Lierberg line, with old style working ability fell away and the kennels like Wienerau and Wildsteiger Land became popular. The real German Shepherd comes from working lines because it was developed as a working dog not a show dog. The vast majority of breeders in Germany are show breeders and they are not going to give up their profits, even at the expense of the breed. It is easy to put a schH title on a dog in Germany. Highline dogs can have good prey drive and good nerves, but generally lack the other traits that make for a strong military or police dog, like fighting instincts, hunt drive, etc. IMO, these traits are also being bred away from because schH doesn't require/assess for them. So even in the working lines these days, you find problems with nerves, and drive issues.



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Someone understands the system.


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## lhczth

This thread has run its course especially when it became an attack on mostly show lines. People seem to forget that there are a lot of members with show lines that love their dogs. Having them constantly attacked is insulting to them and does not make this a very welcoming board. We are here to educate and while people may have strong feelings about what lines they like there are ways to discuss these things without making members feel unwelcome or defensive. 

ADMIN Lisa


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