# Why? Honestly.



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Please don't flame, I really can't take it right now. 

After doing very well recently, J just did something that will have me worried.

It seems when he is under any kind of stress everyone is fair game. He went for my niece, the one who lives with us, today during a pack walk with three dogs completely indifferent to him. It wasn't a quick snap at her. We were standing a good 12' away from the dogs because they had stopped to talk with a man they know, my niece saw that J was nervous and came to pet him. Hackles went up, and he began barking deeply and rapid-fire at her, lunging and snapping, she backed off quickly, confused. I told him "NO!" and put him in a sit. Niece went to sit on the curb near him and he went for her again.

I really cannot believe it. This is the girl he curls up with a night and plays with non-stop all day, that is why I am darn near praying that it is his eyes... I can't have a large dog around who has shown he will attack the smallest family member.

We're going to get his eyes checked ASAP, what else should we test him for? Would having his thyroid checked do any good? I've heard it is mainly older dogs with low thyroid issues...

In the meantime I'm looking for a trainer, not the usual, he knows sit, come, down, and the basics, which is what every trainer around here wants to teach in their class for his age.
If you can suggest on in the area who knows working breeds, please share. 

He is getting worse, not better, no matter what I do. His breeder said that his other littermates haven't shown this, and their owners say they are outgoing, friendly, and all around good pups.

I just this morning posted about him comforting a friend... 

I don't want to give up on him... I really cannot afford a trainer, but I NEED one, we just lost a lot of income because of the crappy times.

I hate this, he is such a sweet, goofy, happy boy, until he's stressed. If I lived out in the country with plenty of land, this would be laughable, but no, I live in the city with neighbors on either side and kids everywhere.

I guess I am venting more than anything. I thought I was doing everything right, letting HIM go to kids and get treats, not forcing him into situations he is not comfortable with, taking him out with me every chance I have, several times a day, even just to sit on a bench and watch people pass, spending my days working on his obedience in a fun happy way, exercising as much as he can to get out any excess energy, positive reinforcement, ect, ect, ECT!

I'm worried if I take him to the vet to get his eyes checked he'll be muzzled, which will add to his anxiety, and if not he'll bite the vet.

I met the Ridgeback pup today and was just overwhelmed, he acted like a puppy, he came up and gave me kisses, J would have hidden behind me and then gone after someone who dropped the their knees to see him.

I just lost my baby girl because of aggression, not him too, he's just a puppy, what is going on?


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## Technostorm (May 24, 2009)

Sorry to hear that. Can you explain in more details how he became stressed? puppies can become over-stressed easily. If he is taking things for granted, I suspect it might be just spoiled. I would first get him checked, then go back to full enforcement of NILIF, and have your neice do the NILIF with your supervising. 

I hope thinks turn out better. God Bless and good luck. Please keep us posted. 

Dan


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

How old is he now? I do hope he will be okay, he is just gorgeous and you have done everything right, way more than I have.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

First of all, I'm sorry to hear this. It does not sound like his eyes--dogs tend to use their noses as much as their eyes and given his history it sound like he is quite fearful and now you're seeing fear aggression. I have rehabbed two dogs with fear aggression. One was 4.5 when I adopted him and the other was 7 months. 

I would immediately join this group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s/ It is an excellent resource. A book I would recommend is "Click to Calm." I found it really helpful when I was working with Kai. 
"Cautious Canine" is a short and basic book that is helpful. There are a couple of other good ones too. I would do a search on dogwise.com

I would switch to positive reinforcement training only. I used a lot of redirection and counter conditioning with my fearful dogs. Correcting a dog for that kind of behavior can backfire in the worst way, creating a very dangerous dog. 

You want to train him to look to you as a calm, confident and secure leader. If Rafi gets nervous he looks at me for guidance. That's what you want to work towards for J. He has to know that you control his world and that you will keep him safe and secure. 

You will need to figure out his triggers and watch him very carefully so that you can interrupt and redirect before he is ramped up into aggression mode. 

And because it really does sound like he has weak nerves you should know that while he can and will get better, he will may never be trustworthy in the way that a more confident dog would be. 

Hope this helps!!!!!!

Also, I can't remember his age. If he's going through a fear period right now then all of his normal anxieties will be heightened.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Not fair.







I'm so sorry you're going through this with your boy J. 
IMO it sounds like you're doing everything right, and I told you that the last time you posted about this. 
Way more than me as well. Hugs for you. 

That is so weird that he went for you niece and he knows and lives with her. 
I'm not very experienced at all with this but I hope for the best for you and J.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

He's 4 months...

I know I shouldn't have yelled at him, but my niece is like my child, and he has very sharp teeth, I forgot myself for a moment...

Thank you for the advice, I immediately thought his eyes because he will bark at all of us until we get within about 5ft, or if it's dark.

His triggers so far are kids, doing anything... Or people reaching to pet him, or hand a treat, let him sniff them, ect.
I need to get him a vest that says he's in trainer, not to pet...

We'll get his eyes and thyroid checked anyways.. Poor boy..


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> ...my niece saw that J was nervous and came to pet him.


I'm not trying to "flame" here so PLEASE don't think that.









I don't know how old your neice is, it really doesn't matter as far as what I am about to say.

Petting a dog in the state of mind he was in is NOT the way to go. Petting and talking soothingly to a dog that is fearfull or nervous is basically telling them. (in THEIR mind.) that they are correct to be afraid.

(I imagine that YOU know this, but on the off chance that you didn't I felt the need to post. And it is obvious that your neice doesn't know this. So there is no time like the present to teach her that. (Unless she is too young to understand.)

Also, don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying her was justified in going after her!

Good luck with your boy. I really hope you get everything figured out.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Yes, I know that, she doesn't. She's 8, and I will fill her in as best I can... I feel bad for HER.. She was very attached to the dog we put down, and witnessed the last fight, seeing him baring teeth and lunging at her freaked her out bad...


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Forgot to add, thanks for posting that, always best to do when you don't know the extent of the OPs knowledge.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ok, I have to ask,,now that you are back home, how is J with the neice? 

Reason I ask, IF he's ok back home, well he's in a comfortable place for him, and I agree with the stressing ramping him up even more, 

I don't doubt your doing everything right, unfortunately J is a pretty fearful dog and as Ruth posted, your probably going to have to be on top of those triggers, before they happen, and before they progress..

Is the breeder near you? For some reason I don't remember that she is, I was going to suggest you take him to see the breeder so she can see first hand what's going on with him and maybe offer some help???? 

I know it can be expensive, but if you can find a good behaviorist that may be a big help..Keep us updated and good luck


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Diane, I agree that he needs a good behaviorist, for a thorough evaluation if nothing else...BUT how does one find really top notch behaviorists & how does one evaluate 'em?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

The niece is staying with her friends until Monday, so I don't know. She left immediately after his incident.

She is a good 300 miles from me, so a visit is out


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would call some training centers/vet's offices in the area and get some referrals, I'd also look for some top notch GSD breeder in the area and also ask for a referral. ONce I had a few referrals, I'd start making some phone calls, ask why type of methods they use, and see if any use methods that are comfortable for you.

However, let me say, a comfortable method for ME, might not be what the dog needs. (and of course I am not looking for a hang em string em up suggestions either)..

She really needs to find someone who has worked with fear aggression and one that worked with GSD's would be perfect:))


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Since he is only 4 months I think there is hope.He is probably getting into the Scared of his shadow stage and needs to work through it.I would definitely consult a behaviorist and nip this in the bud.Since we have consulted one and Athena has aged past 1 yr she is getting better about the little things that would get her going.She would get nervous with strange people we encountered on walks and skateboards and bikes and if someone was holding things like ski poles or sticks.Her aggression with dogs was fear based and we are still working on that which in her case may never be OK.
As for finding a good behaviorist I looked online and I found one that came highly recommended by word of mouth in the area.I would have to look in a book I read but there are certain credentials which I can't list off hand to help you out with finding one.They evaluate by seeing how the dog reacts to certain things and asking the owners tons of questions about when they get worked up.
Any questions feel free to PM me or ask here.


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

It could be his eyes - one of our volunteers has a dog who is almost completely blind and she has a lot of fear issues. She just got a book called Living with Blind Dogs that has explained quite a few of her dogs fears and behaviors.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Let me know where in VA you are and I may be able to suggest a trainer to you. 

Sounds like there may be something going on that you may not be able to see. Having a second person (esp. a professional) can make a big difference. We can only guess here on the board, and I think it is very important to get help as soon as possible to assess him and help you take the steps in building his confidence, and yours too!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

You're welcome. And thank YOU for not taking offense.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

In the tidewater area.

I wouldn't... I'd give the same advice as you.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and just wanted to add,,I DO think having his eyes checked is something you should do first, to rule in or out any medical issue.

I think what confuses me, anyway, is the reaction to your neice at home he's great, but even tho in a stressful situation outside the home, his behavior with her in the instance you posted about , is kinda weird..

I've had a couple of fearful dogs, but none that would go off on someone in a stressful situation that they are familiar with..

hang in there)


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

He's due for his last shots next week, we'll get him tested while we're there... Rotten little shart.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

He is adorable.I hope you find out it is just a weak nerve thing.Not that that is an easy thing to deal with but better than an actual illness I guess.I'll bet with some training and guidance he'll come out of it fine.He is young and they go through way too many stages in there first year or 2.Hang in there and keep socializing him and building his confidence and find a trainer.Unless my trainer is different it won't cost that much to use one.The initial visit is the most expensive around 1 or 2 hundred and then the other visits are cheaper and not that often every 6-8 weeks maybe.Good Luck.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

He's so cute







I hope you figure this out and that it's a quick stage you can work through. 
They definitely do go through a lot of stages! Right now Denali is afraid of her water bowl


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveThe niece is staying with her friends until Monday, so I don't know. She left immediately after his incident. She is a good 300 miles from me, so a visit is out


Soon as you can, I would have a chat w/the niece. At 8 she's got a lot to learn about dogs yet and one of those things is that she should not take what happened personally. It's not that the dog doesn't love her anymore but that he's got a problem(s) that need to be worked on. She may very well think he doesn't love her anymore and that would be tough for her to handle. 

Maybe if you explain to her it's kind of like Mom or Dad having a bad day and yelling at her out of frustration and she happens to be the only one there so she gets yelled at. Maybe that will help.

I'm very happy you're getting his eyes and thyroid checked!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

She should be home today... I'm sure it will be fine, he loves her quite a lot...

I sold the extra fish tanks lying around to cover his vet bill. I guess it's two birds, one stone, I won't be tempted by an awesome arboreal terrarium - which means more pets - and it covers him. 

Just so you see what I see, this is what he does with strangers, and what he did to my niece, though right on them and advancing while putting on a big show. It was friend coming over, he didn't realize who it was until she was right outside the door, so he sat when he did.
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll24/bettagul/?action=view&current=P9030001.flv

Ignore the smudgy glass, puppy noses everywhere


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

It looks to me like scared behavior.I am no professional but that is kind of what Athena does to new things or unexpected things.She was carrying on one day at my husband staring at her at the door.Until she knows who it is when someone comes to the door she barks and circles.I believe the circling or going to then backing down is a sign of nervousness or scared behavior.

I think most of us understand the puppy smudges... Any window mine can get at are covered in nose prints.The truck forget it,it has drip marks all down the side windows.....


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

It is, he acts like a butthead until whatever he's going after comes towards him, then he hides.

I had some FRIGGIN IDIOT mess with him while walking,







me off so bad.. J was woofing so the boy ran at him, and just kept walking at him while staring him down, all the while J is running circles around me barking. Great. All he needed right now...


Niecie is home, he's fine with her... Guess it was fluke. She seems to have forgotten after a busy boating/jet ski filled weekend.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok I watched the video twice, and it was a fast one, but I'll tell you what I saw just from that video,,a big mouth who was wagging his tail,,that was it,,I didn't see a scared dog, he was wagging his tail !!!! even tho the tail wagging started a split second after the initial barking,,he was wagging his tail..

I am certainly NOT saying he isn't afraid/fearful dog, but just from "that" video,,he did not look afraid to me,,more a little big mouth )))))) 

I would have had an absolute FIT if that happened to me with the kid,,in fact the nasty person I can be, I would have said,,"IF you continue staring at him I'm gonna let him loose"...(I wouldn't have, but I would have been pretty downright RUDE to that kid)

Keep taking him out, and take him out with your neice!!! of course monitor, but keep socializing,,hang in there ,,he is one cute puppy, you could send him up to me if ya want))))


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

After telling him in a non-maniac way to back off 3 times, I yelled my head off at him. Which must not have helped the situation, but he wasn't young, about 15-16. Poor J.
MOST kids here think dogs are funny to mess with, make mean, and then dump, so trying to convince one to leave you alone to train is futile.

See, I thought it was how he greeted, but when the new person gets near him he gets worse, shows his teeth, raises his hackles, and tries to look big. He realized who it was after the one, well-several combined, bark... He does have a greeting bark, cry, but boy he's a butthead. I was able to get his attention back onto me after he went for a toy poodle while he was swimming, though I did have a stick and lovely water to go playing in as enticement.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I am pretty sure he found out who it was about 9 seconds in, by the way his posture changes.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Some people have a very hard time not taking it personally. My American Bulldog became mine b/c she aggressed at my daughter & my daughter couldn't get over resenting it. Nor could she ever again trust the bullying bitch. (My daughter didn't acquire the AB by choice. Her Dad died & left her the dog, which she hardly knew)

Another question...Are recommendations here for a behaviorist or a trainer? I'd thought it was a behaviorist, yet there seem to be other posts assuming it's a trainer she's seeking.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

My opinion is to get one that does both.They can asses then get a plan together to either build confidence or they'll tell her he is fine and needs socializing.The way our works is he evaluated for aggression and charged for aggression gave us exercises to do along with basic obedience to work on more.The next visit was just an obedience charge with more homework for us.

I'm with Diane to keep socializing while finding a trainer/behaviorist and go from there.He is still super young.I think if I had caught Athena back at 4 months which looking back I should have seen signs we wouldn't have as much work to do now.We probably wouldn't have any problems to deal with now.

The things we learn from our mistakes...


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Just another thought, usually some sort of job gives theme a boost in confidence and also strengthens your bond with the pup...OB at home, basic tracking, learning some new cool trick like bringing an object or something. Anything that can end on a positive note and make him feel confident in himself could also help. 

Good luck! He's adorable!


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: See, I thought it was how he greeted, but when the new person gets near him he gets worse, shows his teeth, raises his hackles, and tries to look big.


I'm not sure why you allow him "to greet" - can you not put him into a down/stay in these instances (& distract with a super yummy smelly treat)? eg, the obnoxious teen boy, people coming to the house, etc
Have you taught him to go to his 'mat'? (Cassidy's Mom gave a very detailed explaination for teaching this) - I would definitely not allow him to go to the door when people are coming/going.

Have you done any actual puppy classes with him? - can you do a joint class with J & your niece?
Are you doing any clicker training?

Is he on strict NILF with <u>everyone</u> in your home?

Sorry for all the questions


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Only I do NILIF with him, nobody else in the family sees his behavior as an issue... The niece is working on it though.

No, I do not allow him to greet at all when he acts that way.

Putting him in a down stay wouldn't work when the boy is trying to walk over him, I mean it, he was on J's toes. But yes, I put him into a down/stay and distract.

Nope, no place training yet, but I will be working on it. 

I never know when people are coming over, the brother, his girlfriend, friends, family, all drop by completely unannounced, when they do give a warning, I go tire J out with a lot of play, give him his lunch and he acts much better, tired and a full belly. 

I really haven't been able to find a true class, and most I have talked with said they would not allow a pup into an adult class.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It doesn't qualify as NILIF if only one family member does it. Everyone has to be on board for this.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I'm going to toss something out there, and I don't mean it as an insult...merely an observation that I've made hanging around this board and dog people for years. 

Socializing a dog *well* means taking him to different places and exposing him to different people day after day after day for at least 30-40 min at a time (at some point, he'll probably get tired from all the "work" and snooze. That's good. That means he's relaxing. Let him sleep before you move on). 

It doesn't mean taking him to the same pet shop or the same coffee shop that you always go to and letting him hang out a couple times a week. It doesn't mean letting him hang out with your kids/nieces/nephews and their friends. Those are all well and good, but they're a tiny step toward socialization. These don't guarantee you will have a well socialized dog. 

My pup goes out every single day to a variety of places. He meets as many people as I can find (elderly, children, people of different races and different abilities) and we travel all over our area because I can't find enough variety where I live. 

Is it hard? Of course it is. I have a husband, another dog I train and generally, a life that has lots of requirements, just like everyone else. But that's the commitment I made when I got this pup. Better to put all this time and effort in now then have to do it on the back end when he has lots of issues. 

If your dog has a weak temperament, even more reason to bring him out into the world. You don't' have to force him to greet people right away. But every time you ask a stranger if they will give your dog a high value treat and they do, he learns that people are generally ok. 

Working with a trainer is great. But I've found that trainers can only help you so far, that your dog will learn to be reliable at home and at the training facility. If that's all you want (and for a lot of people, that is), then that's fine. But plan to crate your dog when you have company. If you want a dog that can be trustworthy around others (with supervision of course), then you need to get him out into the world. 

AND KEEP A WRITTEN LOG (I use excel for this). It may seem like we are doing a lot of varied socializing. But when we write it all down, we'll see that we missed a few days, or that we keep going back to the same place. 

People ask me how I have such well behaved dogs. What's my secret? No secret. Just a lot of hours, a lot of asking people, especially kids to give my dogs snacks.







Most people are willing to help out, especially while your dog is a pup. 

Of course, you should be as sure as possible that your pup isn't going to harm anyone. How do you do this? Kneel down next to your dog, rub his chest and make sure he knows that you're right there supporting him. Never let anyone approach him while you're just standing by holding the leash. Not for now. Not for a long while. I always kneel down next to my dogs when a stranger pets them until they are fully adults -- approx 2-3 yrs old. It comforts them, and I can interfere if the stranger tries something weird. In fact, even when they're adults, my dogs are never touched by strangers unless I'm also touching them. It's something I learned in therapy dog classes. It tells them that I'm there backing them up. And it works. 

You don't need a puppy class to do this. Puppy classes are mostly about socialization. My puppies take usually a couple puppy classes (at different schools) and I do this in addition to classes. 

You can do this. A fearful puppy needs to learn that the world is a safe place to be, that you will keep him safe and that others are safe to be around. Outdoor malls, coffee shops are great places to start (as opposed to big box pet shops or parks) because there are few dogs and the ones that are there are usually better behaved. Sit outside the library with a box of snacks. Sit outside City Hall or an office building at lunch time. You can do this.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank you. I don't take any advice as an insult if it could help make my life a little better.

I will try to get him out more... I was surprised that when I first got him he was very shy with people the the point of panic if they approached... even if they sat down and ignored him he wanted nothing to do with them... Most pups are shy but friendly IME. The breeder said she had kids around him a lot, but I can help but think something happened to him while he was there to make him dislike kids especially. 

He did pretty well a few mins ago while out playing/exercising/training (rolled into one), a beagle and a JRT walked by and he didn't get so much as a woof out before I'd get him chasing a toy, in this case one of the fluffy seed areas on pompass grass, along with the stick for me to hold. It looks a lot like a rat running when you skim it on the ground, he just loves it. I am starting to take one walking with me, since he loves it so much.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> I just lost my baby girl because of aggression, not him too, he's just a puppy, what is going on?


maybe you should start finding some different breeders...

i also like to put the blame 50/50. so its not entirely the dogs fault but the owners/handler....just maybe something to think about.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

No... She was a rescue she bit a child in the face, and mauled several dogs, not to mention getting nasty with several people who did nothing, going for our elderly family member, and the last straw was breaking a family member's fingers while trying to kill Sparkles.. She was about as stable as a canoe in the atlantic, we tried NILIF and numerous other things for over a year, endless money, but in the end she was a liability, I couldn't find a reputable rescue who would take her in. By reputable I mean one who would keep her, like Villa Lobos. I could not allow her to end up killing a child. A human aggressive pit bull terrier is an oddity, and with the ferocity she attacked animals, if her bites and lunges at humans went to that level she could have killed, it would have also been one more "Vicious pit bull attack" for our news channel. I did the hardest thing I have ever done and put her down, do you think I need that to think about? My love's head hanging and lifeless eyes staring at me? Her vein failing and bleeding everywhere when they put her out of it? How about how the dirt hit her body and there was enough life in it to bounce around under her blanket that we wrapped her in? I love her so much I hate myself for it. She has messed me up so bad I can't look at a pit without thinking of her, every time J does something funny like she did. I have never, and will never put the blame on an animal, not even /50, he's a dog. It's MY fault. It's my fault my angel, my baby, she's gone.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm sorry I got such a temper. I just miss her so much, you don't know... I spent every moment with her, I didn't leave the house for more than a few hours at a time -and then I worried so much I was sick- for over a year.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not have any real advice. I saw the vid and did not think it was bad. At the same time, you saw the incident with your niece. 

I am sorry you are going through this. He is young. I know you are trying to build his confidence. Sometimes agility is good for that, positive, up beat, lots of treats, full body experience, fun, worth a try. But it does cost money. If you can swing an obedience class and a beginning agility class, I think it might be helpful.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

He's 4 months old. He is far too young for a regular agility class. 

The puppy agility classes I've taken assume the puppies are well socialized. They aren't expected to have solid obedience skills, but they are expected to be under your control -- all those people (adults and often children) and pups running around may be too stimulating for your little guy. If you are able to find a puppy agility class, be sure you speak with the instructor at length before you plop your pup into a situation that he's not ready for.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

It really doesn't look bad, but to people who know that german shepherds are nothing but killers, a 45lb dog with hackles raised and a big bark, though with tiny little teeth flashing, is pretty scary... And their reactions are fueling him... I just want to throttle that boy who chased him around the other day.

I've found an agility(they have puppy level) and training facility nearby that looks okay, I will go into it a bit more and check it out. They will do private training at first so your pup knows his job, and introduce distractions such as other people and dogs once he has it down. While I am looking in to them I could set up a 'homemade' agility course in the field in front of our home. We have several people and dogs pass daily, and having a job to do with rewards could get him to focus more on me and the task than them... 

And yes, that's been the problem with the facilities in my area... most don't give private classes, even to assess your dog, and they add that they have "Puppy free time" to let all of the dogs off and play after working. One even said the mandatory collar for their class was a choke chain... For a pup?

I'll keep updating... See what happens with this place. 

Really guys, thank you. I guess I'm just overreacting because of past problems. To a non dog-savvy owner this wouldn't be a real issue, most people I know have biters, and they don't view it as a real problem. My old male bi color bit a cop very badly once(thankfully she had just sat with a GSD on the side of the road as he passed, and was feeling lenient), he'd also get loose and chase people down the road, was fear aggressive until maturity- he'd only nip from behind after sneaking up on people, jump the fence and bring us home laundry left out to dry, go get the neighbor's dog pregnant, when he started losing his sight he bit the tar out of me, but any time I reflect on him I only think of what a good boy he was. 

The worst Dutch has done is chew up human toys. She was never a jumper, biter, never rough, and is just a cuddle monster.

We'll get through this... He's a baby..


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote:Most pups are shy but friendly IME.


That is not how a WELL BRED puppy should be.

Mauser didn't start the whole Gsd aloofness until he was almost 9 months old. Prior to that EVERYONE was his friend. He LOVED meeting people - would walk up to greet them and loved getting the attention.

As he has matured he has become more of what I call the 'typical' GSD. He doesn't solicit attention but if someone approaches him and I tell him to say Hello, he will go over to them and allow them to pet him.









You say you don't know when people are coming over. It doesn't matter. When they ring the doorbell you check the door, tell the dog "I see them" and then MAKE him Down/Stay while you let the person in.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Try finding a well bred pup here(by here I mean my neighborhood and local places I meet pups, not Va







)... I guess most pups I meet are more friendly than scared, but also many of the pups I meet are not treated well, I was amazed and shocked when a man walking with his I TINY pit pup off lead hit it over and over with a stick rather than pick up to get it away from my dogs.

I am absolutely serious when I say I know of someone who claims to hate breeders, but set up her ABD/APBT mix with one of it's pups from a previous litter, then let a pup from THAT litter breed with her. 

So no, I don't really know any well bred dogs to judge by.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

APBTLove there is a positive trainer at the Norfolk Animal Care Center and also Kasha Winston with Rosebriar Dog Training in Norfolk.

Also, here is a link to local trainers: 

http://local.yahoo.com/results?stx=dog+training&csz=Virginia+Beach%2C+VA

APDT local trainers: http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/us/results.aspx?zip=23503&dist=10&cert=0


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank you. Why can everyone BUT me find good trainers in my area? I must have spent an entire day going over the internet and phone books... As well as local vets who might know something.

I think the NACC is about 40 miles from me, because I was considering a pup from there once. 

But thank you, I will certainly go over them.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

4 months.......I've never heard of real attacks and aggression from a socialized 4 month old puppy. 

I have had bites to bleeding, a bloody nose, and a cracked tooth from a puppy playing with me. And the growling, snapping, biting that comes with that can sound horrific.

Are you close to your breeder that you can just take the puppy back for an evaluation so they can assure you that what you are seeing is normal (or not) and what they would recommend? 

And I started agility classes, PUPPY agility classes the week before I even got my puppy (GloryB). So if you have a trainer who knows what they are doing and has PUPPY classes, it's just fine. HEY, you see Glory's video from just 5 months old in class? And we've been attending for MONTHS! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kro4NqlaA24


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

do you have a week?The one thing that made a diff with my abused rescue was tethering him to me on a 4-5 foot leash attatched to my belt 24/7.I admit it took more than 1 week cause not that many people new and acting strange OR /things that are strange occurred.Maybe this puts more pressure on owner than dog-and YES I got bit once through re-directed aggression.Tethering to a dog with problems is stressful but it does work!!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

bump, just to get the Subject more specific for more replies...


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggr*

What would you define as real aggression? I've never seen aggression without a reason for it... His response is aggressive, instead of non-aggressive fear.

I am now positive it is FEAR. I knew he was scared before, but this has completely solidified it... It was dark out and I didn't see them coming until they were about 15' away, but there is a boston terrier here with severe DA, and she was coming right at us at the end of her 20' extendable. I told them not to let her near. She makes noises like a small dog in a fight. The first time I heard it I freaked out, it sounded exactly like Sparkles when she was attacked. J didn't even bark, he flew to me and CLIMBED up me, I have bloody welts... Once she got by he got down and took a good look at her, sniffed around where she was and then wanted to go back home.

Now that I know what it is I will start working on it on my own, even if I have to pay my neighbors to work with me and their dogs, who are very stable, and ignore his nonsense behavior.

His breeder is about 300 miles away, so no personal visits... 

I am NOT trying to sound like a snob, but I know the difference between rough, loud, obnoxious play and serious. His body language is 100% different during these times. I've owned GSDs for 16 years, and fostered as well as owned others.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

Ah, and the breeder said she just 'doesn't know', when I explained his behavior, because none of his siblings are like it... I noticed when she brought him to me that he was oddly fearful. I thought that it must have been from traveling and being in a strange place, normal, so I thought nothing of it. 

I explained, in the other thread on his problems, about his breeder and how he came to be mine. They are not the best, they health test and raise the pups truly loving them, but I first got a little suspicious that one of the kids there that they socialize with might have hurt him. They had a video of the pups outside, in one it showed the pups wandering around, going up to an adult dog pen and the adult aggressively lunging at them through the fence, as well as the kids running out to pick up the pups and then running around the yard with them flopping around in their arms to bring them back to the camera... Something I would never allow.

I just don't know. I probably never will know if something happened there to plant the seed of fear.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

Beautiful puppy!

Watched the video several times. If I turn the sound off, I don't see aggression at all, only an excited puppy.

I agree that when they get excited and bark and you see the teeth (too bad we can't teach them to yell without showing teeth) they can look scary.

I'm guessing you had an episode of overly excited, immature puppy reacting without thought.

Also, consider that you may also have a 'talker.' Sofie barks like normal dog when strangers approach property, but she also barks to say 'this is fun,' or even at me when I come in as if to say 'where have you been, and why didn't you call?' And her teeth show the whole time she's yacking.


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## doggonefool (Apr 15, 2004)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggr*

Well, I'll throw my two cents in here. 

We fostered River, at about 1 year old, to evaluate her for adoption to a family with kids. She had previously bonded with one person and attacked everyone who came near that person. She was found abandoned on the freeway at 7 months and adopted out and returned 3 times before she landed with us. 

My evaluation was that she was not adoptable to a family with kids, nor to anyone who wasn't german shepherd savvy. I think she's fearful aggressive. We have taken her to behaviorists and trainers and she was a demo dog in a Suzanne Clothier seminar.

The behaviorists and trainers taught *me* a lot more about understanding and handling than they taught her about not being fearful. I can always learn more about keeping her safe and secure. I love her and I'm keeping her and I have to protect her as much or more than I protect anyone else. Her life depends on it. In California, you can be sued if someone feels threatened by an aggressive dog, so I've been told. I can't take a chance; I have to trust my instincts and my love for my dog.

If you think your pup is fearful, learn how to deal with that and how to deflect his fear. If you think your pup may show aggression, read up on that and learn how to work with that. I think that at four months old, your pup can be reconditioned some if you learn how and it sounds like you will do whatever you can to keep your pup.

I didn't agree with everything the trainer said and told me to do; I took it as suggestions and used what felt right to me. I didn't feel right about everything the behaviorist said, but I keep the things that work in our home. I read everything I can find, books, and the things that experienced people share on this board. Try what you read about and hear about if it feels right for you and if it feels wrong, throw it out. 

We can't always know what initiated fear in our babies before they came into our homes, but we can do our best to keep them safe once they are there and to try to decrease whatever _you_ feel is causing discomfort or fear. Your instincts and love of your dog are what will keep him safe.

I guess what I'm saying, is trust your instincts when it comes to your dog


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Do you live in NE VA????? the state is HUGE! If you put out a specific question with your more specific location and looking for a trainer, you may get some good responses (as in 'Looking for Trainer near Alexandria, VA...')


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I just watched the video a couple of times. 

I saw a wiggly butt puppy who was frustrated slightly by not being able to go see what was interesting him, but settled quickly. 

Did you see his hiney wiggling! 

You may have had GSDs for 16 years (aren't you 16?) but that doesn't matter. Each dog is different. I always ask on home checks not what breed so much as what kind of dogs people have had-describe them. If they tell me about perfect dogs, I know then that they need a moosh dog with no issues or there will be problems. I am not saying this about you, just saying that I don't care how many dogs I have or have fostered, I still get freaked out by new behaviors. 

But I make sure-like you are with that video-that I am reading them correctly. I have other people watch and look. We set up some things so we can all interpret. 

Fear is not the worst thing in the world. Fear aggression isn't either, really. Remove the fear, remove the aggression. They aren't necessarily state but can be situational. Everyone is freaked out by something. So are our dogs. 

A puppy his age is going to go through fear periods and periods of behavioral strength, sometimes all in one day. How we react is key. 

Embarassingly, leetle Rocco has issues with larger dogs while I am holding his leash. Hand the leash over, and...no problem! Hand the leash over when the Yorkie ran past the obedience class...no problem-he had barked at the other two (we were in a park) who ran by.







My body language and feelings are inhibiting his progression. I am working on it. He is reacting to my learning. He also reacts differently to dogs by their energy. 

I am sure he does with people too, just doesn't happen often-but I have seen him not want to go up to some people, he was afraid of a child who was afraid of him, he was also afraid of the little wooden cow in the vet office lobby. Of course, I am not that freaked out by those things-so we work through it pretty easily-the dogs-I am worried about-for a couple of reasons (my worries of him getting hurt and my worries of having a crazy barking at other dogs dog). Yet, I think he has a solid temperament and when we work on things and use desensitization (I have done this in my real job and with other dogs) he recovers right away, which is what I want to see. 

He was taken to a kill shelter as 5-6 week old puppy, his mother was killed, and he and his two sisters were left there. He was picked up by a rescue lady with 70 dogs (!) and kept there for a week until put on a transport from GA to NYS. Multiple legs and an overnight he ended up with me. So I would venture to say...that was not the best beginning we'd want for a puppy!







Still he bounced back and so will J-some days I feel really bad about Rocco's mom, but I can't allow that to change how I deal with him when he gets freaked out. 

So-get those trainers lined up and make it work, as Tim Gunn says, because he's a puppy acting like a puppy from what I am gathering, and at 4 months is definitely and completely moldable! This is going to be great when you go to class...and see the other puppies...and think whew did I get the good one or what!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

True aggression at 4 months? No.

FEAR aggression at 4 months? Sure!!

Does the dog in the video show either? IMHO - no.

Seeing that you are going to be living with this dog for MANY years I would suggest investing the travel time and money into going to a good trainer. 

A couple hours of driving once a week is an investment for a better future for the dog.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I will try to get a video of what I normally see, the one I posted is the only one I have, and not a good representative of what I am talking of, as I think he had an idea of who it was coming up the steps.

Yes, I am, so I've been around GSDs since I was four months old, have a picture of me holding the paw of my Bicolor boy - who's head was as big as my body.








Though I do feel like I have the mind of an 87 year old lady, can't ever communicate with others my age, they are exceedingly immature... I didn't say that I had that many years to make it sound like I knew GSDs inside out, it's that I'm very aware of their body language... The male I grew up with was pretty stable, but he went through the phases of fear aggression, and bit more than one person, he was extremely territorial, but ended up being a good old boy. When he was 15 he gave me a good bite because he couldn't see me, glad he had dull teeth, I have scars from it.

I think I said it on this thread, maybe not. I'm in the Tidewater area of Va. Ft. Monroe/Hampton/Va Beach/norfolk/Newport News are in my reach.

I guess my expectations were too high, but I'm positive J can turn out to be manageable, I can deal with him not ever being a social butterfly, but I had hoped he would. I wanted to get into therapy, but he is certainly not the dog for that... Guess that's for another time.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I have not watched the video but I would definitely find a GOOD trainer that understands how to work with dogs with less than good nerves. I would not expect a 4 month old pup to be "aggressive" but it is entirely up to you to ensure 24/7 that he is not put into a situation that leaves him so uncomfortable that he feels he needs to lash out. There is no quick fix for a dog with nerve issues. You take itty bitty baby steps and keep things stress free and positive. It is an arduous process and one that you will likely be dealing with for his lifetime. Do not take me wrong it can be MANAGED but there is no correcting weak nerves (seeing threats where there are none is a sign of weak nerves IMO). It will take you being ever vigilent in all situations. When you are out with him he would need to be your ONLY focus.

This post is not necessarily based solely on THIS post but from reading/skimming other posts about this pup.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogdo you have a week?The one thing that made a diff with my abused rescue was tethering him to me on a 4-5 foot leash attatched to my belt 24/7.I admit it took more than 1 week cause not that many people new and acting strange OR /things that are strange occurred.Maybe this puts more pressure on owner than dog-and YES I got bit once through re-directed aggression.Tethering to a dog with problems is stressful but it does work!!


ABSOLUTELY. If you are really willing to put your effort into changing this behavior, this is what I would recommend. You need to stop your dog from continuing to reinforce herself. 

I think that you definitely need a trainer, at least for a consultation if not a on a weekly basis so that someone experienced can have a first hand look and give you advice from there. Obviously it is up to you, but based on your past experiences I think you would be on board for really trying to nip this in the bud ASAP. 

Why do you not want to hire a trainer?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I haven't found one I trust as of yet, and as I said, money is really tight at the moment... I would hate to spent $100's on something that may not work, and have it completely wasted. 

Is the aim of the tethering to get the dog to become more focused on you? Seeing as he would have to follow you and keep an eye on what you are doing at all times. 

Little boy needs to go for his walk, so I will give an update on how he does with me trying some new techniques to help him overcome his fear, since I'm bound to meet people while out. Got some new- extremely stinky I might add - Liver treats he is crazy over I will have some neighbors and friends give him while out. Let you know how it goes..


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I see the tethering as a way of interrupting your dogs emerging habits and giving you control to redirect them. No chasing, no slip-ups, etc. because he is attached to you.

The more your dog does something the more it will reoccur. 

The only way your dog knows how to deal with stress right now is barking (either overstimulated (usually the case) or trying to ward off somebody/thing before he is scared). 

The problem with the barking is that it will work and when it doesn't your dog most likely will become overwhelmed when approached and may bite if it cannot retreat away. You need to show your dog that it does not need to protect you, itself, etc. and barking at the door, a person across the street, etc. is not an acceptable behavior (best to keep this from happening at all so it does not reinforce and move slowly under his threshold) and to focus on you instead when he gets nervous, sees a person, dog, hears a doorbell knock, etc. and he will be reward and have much less stress. As you should be the one he looks for for protection and guidance and feel safe and comfortable because of this.

Get a treat pouch if you don't already have one, and then you will be really armed and ready. I like clickers for this situation also.

Most trainers will come out to you (that do in-home, which I think would be best right now) and do a free consult with you. I think you should at least do that, what can it hurt? It will be free and could help you a lot.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I will certainly try to find someone to come out and assess the situation, if they will do it for a reasonable fee or free...

He did pretty darn well, I took Sparkles along because of her good behavior and stability. I was lucky enough to see the passers from a distance, and was able to get J into a focused state and moved off of the road to give him some space, his comfort level is about 20', depending on how to the dog behaves. It was a weimaraner bitch and three people. I tried one of your suggestions along with treats as they passed. I kneeled beside him and sat Sparkles on his other side and treated him for not barking, while calmly rubbing his chest and praising. He showed no bad behavior, just interest and the occasional, quiet *uff*. I let him follow once they were a safe distance so he could sniff where she'd been as well as the people.

I really do not like these people or I would have asked if they minded helping me a bit with him. Bit of a long story, but because I wouldn't allow the man and his dogs onto my property to poop and play-while driving my dogs nuts- they let me know I was a "Stuck up, selfish, miserable B****".
So not training help from them... But I'm proud of J, also got him to focus on me and chicken while a lady came to pick up a crate she bought from us. She had a GSD at home and was understanding, so didn't force herself into his comfort zone.

I think he must have felt very protected with me and Sparkles right there with him, and did well.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton/Va*

bump


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton/Va*

Thank you for the bump, MRL.

I'm going to look around and see if there are any GSD groups in the area.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton/Va*

and those are the type of situations you need to have J exposed to, ones that are calm, no nonsense )


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*



> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAand those are the type of situations you need to have J exposed to, ones that are calm, no nonsense )


I agree. Sadly my neighborhood is filled with people who don't agree, and think that every one of their pit bull dogs - who are normally off lead - need to come up to everyone else's. I actually saw a group walking with not one, but two adult pits, male and female, off lead and obviously in charge of where they walked.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

i believe that there is still hope for this dog. my trainer also deals with over aggressive dogs. right now he has a 5yr old 115lb male GSD that was down right nasty. never socialized, belonged to an old man. the dog would bite you through a kennel/fence. he worked with this dog and this dog is now at the point where * I* walked right into the kennel run, leashed him, took him to his kennel and hand fed him. after that, walked him out of his kennel and gave some affection, petting, belly rubs, and all that good stuff. so i believe that in the right hands of the knowledgeable this dog has a chance and i hope that this dog will have a good future.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

But this pup is not aggressive per se. He will require a lot of work and vigilance.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

Did great today. Lady came to pick up a fish tank from us(I'm relocating a lot of the extra animal junk around here!), and he ignored her until she started petting him. He was pretty good, he gave some half hearted barks, but quickly got over himself when he realized she was the one holding treat... and then tried getting in the car with her to go for a ride... She also had a shepherd Rottie mix at home and was fine with him.

Also a family member came by, large male, quite the attitude I might add, and J was a bit wary but started following him around like a- well, puppy. I notice J seems to like young men the best. Perhaps it's the higher voices women have, and a lot of young men act more confident in posture, behavior, and voice. Maybe that puts him at ease.

Everything I've heard says to ignore your dog when he acts fearful/aggressive, I understand not rewarding fear by going "Oh it's okay, it's fine" And petting while you dog is in hysterics over something, but looking at it from his perspective, I'm there for him.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

Trainer in Hampton 

http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/us/details.aspx?slne=13424&zip=23605&dist=10&cert=1


Ellen Taylor, CPDT 
APDT Member since 2008

ASPCA
Suffolk, VA 23436
Phone: 757-745-7157 
Fax: 757-745-7159 
Email: [email protected] 
Web: http://www.aspca.org 

Looks like a good candidate


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

No in home training








That is what I need, while going out somewhere and learning how to make your dog behave is great it's another thing at home, in your neighborhood.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

Ugh, I found one even closer, but she doesn't work in 'aggression'. 
I think I will shoot her an email though, for a consult and see if she's willing to make an exception.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

I think with a pup so young, she may, though if she does not feel capable with dealing with any aggression issues, I would be concerned about whether she has enough experience. 

You are paying, interview her. And even after you go with someone, if they tell you something that doesn't feel right with your gut, tell them that won't work for you. 

As awful as it sounds, you have to protect your puppy from bad trainers too. Good luck.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

That is precisely why I am wary... I would hate so much to hire someone who causes more damage than they fix.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

Personally, (and I own a fearful dog), I would be less concerned about whether or not a trainer offered in-house training or not. After all, what you learn in class you take home and use. Ris was pretty afraid in her first few classes at the training center. But getting her out and about helps her a lot more than just keeping her home around her every-day experiences.

JMHO.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Trainer desperately needed Ft. Monroe/Hampton*

I agree with above Murphy. That is why I didn't list the other trainer. She didn't check aggression. No reason to hire someone who isn't qualified, and obviously not comfortable in taking on aggression cases.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*



> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OA
> I am certainly NOT saying he isn't afraid/fearful dog, but just from "that" video,,he did not look afraid to me,,more a little big mouth ))))))
> 
> I would have had an absolute FIT if that happened to me with the kid,,in fact the nasty person I can be, I would have said,,"IF you continue staring at him I'm gonna let him loose"...(I wouldn't have, but I would have been pretty downright RUDE to that kid)


I would say from the video the behavior was more like alerting "Hey Ma, there's somebody her! Come look!" I didn't see vicious or aggressive AT ALL! I wish mine alerted this calmly, LOL!

Since I've learned what I have about dogs (which does not by far make me an expert but I'm getting better) that kid would have been told to back off or take a chance on being bitten. Then I would have explained to him they whys, wherefor's and the do's and don'ts of his behavior. 

We were at the lure course just yesterday and about a 10-12yo girl ran *directly* in front of Riley within like maybe 1ft if that. I didn't even see her coming because my back was turned. That type of activity usually gets a response from him that I do NOT like and it could have been dangerous for her. He'd just finished a run at the course so was pooped and not interested in much of anything but cooling off, thank goodness.

I did speak w/them shortly thereafter and told them it would be a really good idea to learn to not run in front of any dog, especially one they don't know. Their Dad came up to me shortly thereafter and thanked me for letting them know, says they had no clue some dogs don't handle that well and some think "PREY!" So we chatted a bit and Dad learned a little bit that hopefully they will follow up on.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

He could tell J was scared, and wouldn't back off when I told him to. I did say he will probably bite, and he retorted with "I don't care!"
When did kids turn into untrained animals...? And this one was only a few years from being considered an adult. People are ridiculous. 

He is able to calmly pass a big GSD bitch and two toy poodles -one poodle has access to leave it's yard and the others are in an invisible fence - who are going bonkers at him. They startled him at first when they rushed the fence, but I told him - in our own way - that I had it under control, put him and Sparkle on my other side, and swiftly, calmly passed them.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*



> Originally Posted By: Murphy-ElperroguapoPersonally, (and I own a fearful dog), I would be less concerned about whether or not a trainer offered in-house training or not. After all, what you learn in class you take home and use. Ris was pretty afraid in her first few classes at the training center. But getting her out and about helps her a lot more than just keeping her home around her every-day experiences.
> 
> JMHO.


I totally agree. For one thing, she's an APDT certified trainer and a behavior consultant, so she's qualified to evaluate your puppy. He may be fine in a group class, you don't really know, and his behavior may not be the problem you think it is, which is why it's a good idea to get some qualified help. As Jamie pointed out, even in a class you're doing most of the work at home between classes, but you also have the benefit of working with him around other people and dogs in class, with the experienced eye of a trainer to comment and make suggestions. I think she sounds like an excellent choice!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

Well, apparently my email to her did not go through... Haven't gotten a reply. I'll try again, as my email does do that.

J has really improved, since I've changed my style of handling it a little. He's not as focused on cars, he'd still chase one down if I let him go but he's able to listen to me over the lure of chasing the giant bunny... As we pass someone if it's apparent they are causing him unease I will go "Hey, hurry up/let's go/come!" and he calms and stops staring at the person over his shoulder every few seconds and gets to my heel.

I am really surprised at how quickly he has gotten calmer. Especially if Sparkles and/or Dutch are there, neither have the slightest HA or fear with people, so they are good to show him how he should act. I noticed he watched Dutch a lot when we had company, he was woofing a bit until he looked over at her waiting to be petted and wagging her old tail. 

He is also paying much more attention to me on walks, I use an extendable and whenever he gets ahead of me he stops at looks at me, -I guess to make sure I haven't vanished- and waits until he's at my heel again. 

I'm going to start clicker training, and get ahold of the book Click to Calm.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

young dogs //insecure dogs CAN pick up on the good habits //behaviors of other dogs, especially ones they live with, and yeppie they can pick up those bad habits to but we hope they don't LOL..

I would also work on "leave it",,,if I see an upcoming situation that I don't think is in Masi's best interest, along with the let's go, (as you do) I wil also just give a "leave it"...she has gotten to the point, where, when I say leave it,,she knows she doesn't have to "worry" about 'whatever" and her attention turns to what I am doing...(kinda hard to explain) You don't have to be really stern about it,,,but just a "leave it",,but what your doing sounds like it's working,,keep doing it....

Let us know how the trainer works out..and I agree with not necessarily needing home training,,,(Something I did with masi when I had to deprogram her defensive reactiveness as a young girl ,,long story,,anyhow,,joined a class, but sat behind a gate and just sat there and let her observe, it worked WONDERS!) 

ok done rambling


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

A friend of mine came by to drop some things off, I had J out doing his business when they pulled up. He got to greet her first and was fine, he loves her to death, she was here when he arrived. 

She had two young passengers, I guess 12-13, boys, in the back, I let J go sniff and he jumped in with them, and slobbered all over their faces... 

I would prefer someone who can come here because of the unique things here, a group setting wouldn't hurt, but it also doesn't include groups of men and women walking around, shouting, moving quickly, cars zooming past, dogs acting nasty behind fences or on leashes, the little kids running wild... I just like it when I trainer can take the time in the environment J will be living in for the rest of his life. 

He's a smart boy and is picking up what I find acceptable fast... He has learned leave it, I usually apply it with puddles and squirrels, both of which he loves... But I can start using it other ways. 

Don't mind your rambling! It can help!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

While it is never a good idea to ignore something hoping it will get better, it is also not always a good idea to label such a youngster as having an aggression problem. 

For one thing, if your pup had a barking/growling incident at four months, and you discuss it as aggression on here, and go to several trainers with an aggression issue, and four years down the line, the dog bites a kid for trespassing through your yard, you could be liable for KNOWING you had a "dangerous" dog. Weirder things have happened in our court system.

Another thing is the trainers. Years ago I put a dog through basic obedience at nine months old. The very first day he was weirded out by the pug dog. He crawled up my back. We finished the classes with no repeat of that behavior. I figured it was the weird rooing under the tin roof of the barn we were in. 

Anyway, at a year old the dog started barking and lunging at other dogs in PetsMart. I called trainers. I explained the problem as honestly and completely as I could. Looking backwards, I wonder if trainers generally multiply whatever you tell them by a factor of five or six. So if you tell them he barks and lunges at dogs he doesn't know, they believe that he has had serious dog fights with numerous dogs and has bitten three people already. 

What I needed with this dog was exposure to other dogs, and perhaps a well timed correction. What I ended up with was my dog all alone in a ring for thirty bucks a session working on obedience and focus exersizes and never coming near another critter. 

Since then, I have been in basic classes with dogs ten times worse than this dog, barking and lunging at other dogs, lunging at people (me). 

I just think that four months old is really young to saddle the dog with an aggression problem.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

I believe that is a possibility. People, in general, do tend to down play their problems. like when going to the dr. - if they say they smoke one or two a day, the dr assumes they mean packs. 
so, it becomes habit for professionals to assume that people are downplaying the problem and going from their own assumptions.


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## doggonefool (Apr 15, 2004)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

When I took River to a trainer for aggression issues, I felt the same way. I wanted him to come here..in hindsight, I am glad that I took her to the trainer. 

1) I have 3 other dogs and it would have been distracting and difficult to have a training session for just the aggressive one

2) During the session, we still had the exposure to dogs behind fences, other people walking, other people walking other dogs, kids, cars, and bikes

3) It was a private training session and though costly, was well worth it to learn how to handle Rivers fearful aggressive behavior.

4) While this trainer's method's were not totally the way that I want to train a fearful dog, the experience was invaluable at the time. He did nothing that I felt would add to her fearfullness and helped build my confidence a lot. I emailed and talked to him on the phone a few times before I went to meet him, and still had plenty of opportunity to leave before committing to the session. He sat us down and talked at some length about what he would do, what he would suggest that we do, what I expected of her, and how far I was willing to go.

River is about 2 as far as we know, and we didn't have the benefit of knowing what kind of experiences led to her fearful/aggressiveness; she was over 1 when we adopted her. I agree with what has been said here several times before: J is young enough that I wouldn't label him aggressive yet and applaud your forethought in working to steady his nerves at a young age.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

Getting very good... I had the camera with me when I had J out playing/training. A biker went right past, bike making the odd clicking noise, this would normally freak J out. It got a small response from him. He hardly noticed as the guy went by, but seemed to realize what he saw after it went past LOL
Only 8 sec. but it gives you an idea of progress.
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll24/bettagul/?action=view&current=P9130016.flv

Directly after the lady owning the two non responsive older bitches came by, he had a big barking fit, but I put him in a down and he was fine after about 30 seconds.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

good video ! (love my new computer now I can watch video'sLOL)

Is that your backyard? Looks like alotta activity could be going on along your fence line,,,but it's also a good place to work him using the fence as a safe barrier...

I find with Masi, (who still can be reactive in certain instances) she will carry her frisbee from here till the cows come home,,she is not letting go of that thing for anything,,and sometimes when I walk in a populated area, she's to busy holding that dang frisbee to worry about what's going on around her,,,you think J has an "obsession" with anything like that? some kind of toy??? maybe use it as a security blanket type thing,,,just a thought...


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

Thank you, I thought it was a bit funny, he caught on a bit late lol

That is a corner of the back yard, yes. Lots of cars, bikes, dogs, and people go by often. 

Yep, those fuzzy seed areas on pompass grass. I use them to my advantage. I'm going to get him some kind of tough rag toy that is long enough for me to hold and walk but still reach him, he loves cloth.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

good idea,,if he likes to tug, really bring that out in him, and use it to your advantage for distraction work ) he's a real cutie, wish ou were closer i'd love to help you out )


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

any updates?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

Yep.

He's doing pretty well, I did expect it to take baby steps so IMO it's well. He's still a bit fearful, but will pass strangers without barking, he just doesn't like them to randomly reach out to him. I do tell people not to offer the treats I hand them until he's relaxed - after about a minute. And most of the neighbors have started tossing him treats when he walks by.

Dogs are still and issue, but we're down to him being okay within 20', unless the dog is being aggressive, or noisy, then he behaves and realizes he's not quite as big as he thinks, oddly enough his stature changes drastically when a dog barks back, his hackles go down, his ears are relaxed, not pinned to his head or strait up, and he looks to me. I tell him it's fine, keep going, and he doesn't look at the dog.

I think he is only acting like a butthead to dogs that are showing submissive signs, because he's gotten the fruit of his efforts before - the dogs jumping back and trying to leave. The old bitches are still the only ones who could care less about him, so he's good with them, but plays too rough and isn't going to be off lead with them, and a senior female shepherd (who sits off lead in her unfenced yard and watches us pass).

Like I've said, I don't give a hoot if he ever likes people or dogs, but he's got to learn how to cope. In this case, I've found that his little screaming dog toy and a small homemade flirt pole work wonders, I don't care if a pack of St. Bernards are walking by, the flirt pole is the best thing on earth to him. He is obviously calmer after I bring it out, because he goes into play mode and forgets the people. I many times get people, especially kids, to use the pole with him.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

sounds like he is doing GOOD !!! Keep up the good work ))


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

Alrighty, I found a trainer nearby I've been talking to. She said she wants to try him in the small group first since he calms down after he gets over his fear... If he doesn't do well in that group she'll do private.

Keep you guys updated.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

Cool! Who did you end up choosing as a trainer?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Aggression from a 4 month old puppy? REAL aggress?*

great news! Keep us updated!! I think I probably mentioned when I had to deprogram masi (long story) and took her to a different training facility,,for 4 weeks, we sat behind a gate which allowed her to see everything going on,,by the second week, she was napping on the floor!!! young social/calm dogs were coming up to the gate, they'd sniff each other,,then I moved into the big room with her and sat off to the side,,this was invaluable to reworking some early experiences she had with dog reactiveness, and getting jumped by other dogs...Maybe the new trainer will do something like that to get you integrated into the group..

Definately let us know how it goes!


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