# So much progress.....EXCEPT FOR KIDS! HELP!



## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

We have been training hard with Lizzie and she is responding well. We are still doing most things on leash or when we are not among others. She is calm around adults and older children now and will ignore dogs on our walks even when they bark at her. Yesterday she played with a tiny puppy and was so gentle.

BUT.....we were standing talking to a friend and he was holding his 3 year old daughter. She said "I want to pet the puppy daddy" I said "baby, she isn't ready for that yet you can just look at her. (really talking to the dad because the girl was too young to understand) Lizzie was sitting calmly by my side. The dad PUT THE LITTLE GIRL DOWN! right in front of Lizzie after I had clearly stated that it was not a good idea at this point. Lizzie lunged on the leash, deep growl, tail whipping. This is her typical reaction to young children. The girl SCREAMED and ran behind her dad. I walked Lizzie away. I was embarrassed and I am so worried that one day she won't be on a leash. WHAT DO I DO to get her over this? We have grandchildren coming to visit and she is doing so well with other things. I WISH I knew what she was thinking. 

I know some of you said before to have them throw her treats. Have you worked through this with your dogs? Do we just accept that she may never interact with children. She is so sweet in every other way. I can't figure out if it is the movement, the high voice, the size....AAAGGGGHHH!!:help:


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

dianefbarfield said:


> Do we just accept that she may never interact with children. She is so sweet in every other way. I can't figure out if it is the movement, the high voice, the size....AAAGGGGHHH!!:help:


Ummmm all of the above! Ace has the same reaction. We take him to parks and let him watch the kids and listen to them. I hope some day it pays off. Right now he is about 50/50. Half the time he reacts to kids the other half he doesn't.


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## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

So Ace is the same age as Lizzie....could they mature out of it with help. We go watch kids too and if they are on the other side of a fence she just ignores them. Only if they approach her does she lose it....I am really worried about an "accident".


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think this is common with alot of gsd's especially if they do not grow up with kids in the house......and access to other small children while they are puppies is hard if you don't know to many with young children......its not like you can use just anyones kid to practice on.......LOL

i think you should keep doing what your doing, and also be aware that adults don't listen to warning either, so being proactive is best......that was not a smart idea for that person to put their kid down right in front of your dog, but the world is full of them......

i think you did the right thing walking away giving more distance........and thats what i would do, watching her body lauguage and catching her before she reacts.....maybe getting her attention on you and off the weird little people she's not sure of........practicing counter-conditioning giving her yummie treats the minute she spots a little kid, praising, and turning and walking away, giving her something else to do besides react...........it sounds like you have progressed well in other areas, so i am sure the same type of tecniques will work for the kids.........but very small steps and more time spent on brief successful encounters will get you to a better place.........

i think alot of dogs, especially gsd's aren't real crazy about strange kids running at them, but through obedience and reading your dog you can handle situations......it takes practice for both the handler and the dog........


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

dianefbarfield said:


> So Ace is the same age as Lizzie....could they mature out of it with help. We go watch kids too and if they are on the other side of a fence she just ignores them. Only if they approach her does she lose it....I am really worried about an "accident".


I know I am also worried about an accident. That's why I can't take any chances. He loves my nieces and they are 5 & 7. Always been around him since the day we brought him home. I think when were out I may tigger some of it because when I see a child I tense up. I know I do and I try really hard not to but I feel myself doing it. When were on walks and I feel a little more in my comfort zone and he starts to react to a child I just correct him and keep moving. He gets corrected for looking back a them also. I hope he grows out of it. Not that I plan on having kids but I don't want to consider him a liability.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think its ok for them to look as long as they aren't reacting.....all depending on what kind of correction you are giving, i wouldn't want my dog to think he gets in trouble for looking at a kid.........thats why the counter conditioning works so well........your walking, or where ever, see a kid, at first glance your dogs gets a treat, praise then turn the other way, so keeping the dog under the threshold not giving time to focus in, but also allowing him to see and experience the kid or object your working on........timing is important.........


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Young children are noisy and unpredictable. I had two dogs that had problems with that. My first dog would try to run away from them in fear. My second would lunge and snap at them. I could never let those 2 around small children -- ever. 

My two youngest dogs are fine with children, though. And neither has had any special exposure. I'm inclined to think that it's based on the individual's temperament.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

how old is Lizzie?
work with her around children
but muzzle her.

you friend that sat his daughter
down in front of Lizzie after you said
she's not ready to be petted yet
made a really bad move. maybe
he didn't really understand what
you were saying. you should
have explained the situation to him after
she lunged.

if your dog never accepts children then
watch her closely and keep her muzzled
when she's around children.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

as long as your dog is not extremely fearful you could try muzzeling, but i still wouldn't do that until some more counter conditioning is done........some dogs may panic with a muzzel on and it could make the situation worse.......

most young dogs do mature and get better with training/exposure, but as said it also depends on the temperment....some dogs do not like to be touched by strangers or approached by strangers etc......it is our job to make them comfortable in all different kinds of situations.........reading them and removing them if they are not responding well.......

you may never be able to let strange little kids come up to your dog, or maybe with a few years and training you may be able to...........in all honesty, because i am on the proactive side i would not let just any kid come up to my dogs, kids are unpredictable and don't understand........and you do have to learn not to be bashful in situations, be clear telling the parents what you are doing etc..........just say you are in training your dog is unsure of kids and the dog is not comfortable with kids up close and personal at this point........you learn to tell people exactly what you need them to do around your dog if there are issues........alot more sucessful if you can do this.......


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## kensbuns1 (May 19, 2010)

I have been very lucky where that issue is concerned. Chewey loved kids and he would herd our youngest grand daughter if she were going into the kitchen our try to climb the stairs. Our new dog Maddy is adjusting to the Grandchildren. She did bark however at a child that was brought to our house by a friend. But what I noticed was that Lauren had a lot of quick arm movements and for some reason Maddy did not like her.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

Re: muzzling...I taught my GSD and my Rottie mix to wear muzzles by frequently putting the muzzle on for short periods, gradually extending the time wearing one, giving small treats, and eventually going for walks with the muzzles on. Why did I do this, when neither dog has ever displayed even a wink of aggression to people, kids, or other animals? Because someday they may be in car when I have an accident, or somehow they may be lost or injured and separated from me somehow. Because they are formidable-looking, it is natural to think that someone might muzzle them. If they already know about muzzles, then asking them to wear one in my absence will be far less stressful for them than if they had never been exposed and acclimated to them.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

Re: child reactivity...I would suggest that you work with your pup to ignore kids the same way you do when teaching her not to react to other dogs or rollerbladers or cats across the street. Of course, you want to be 100% on top of who is coming up to her, because as you've just experienced, lots of kids have no fear of dogs but they don't recognize signals from dogs warning them to keep their distance. And, also as you've seen, not every adult is any better at heeding warnings. I had an unreliable GSD a few years ago; she was very pretty and lot of folks wanted to pet her. My standard answer was "No." I didn't embellish or give them a chance to think it over. "No" was all they needed to hear. If they asked why (and most did), only then did I give an explanation: "She isn't totally reliable around strangers, and I don't want anyone to get hurt". Period. That's all you need to say. I found that starting with the single word "No." and not automatically offering up an excuse stopped most folks in their tracks.


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> i think its ok for them to look as long as they aren't reacting.....all depending on what kind of correction you are giving, i wouldn't want my dog to think he gets in trouble for looking at a kid.........thats why the counter conditioning works so well........your walking, or where ever, see a kid, at first glance your dogs gets a treat, praise then turn the other way, so keeping the dog under the threshold not giving time to focus in, but also allowing him to see and experience the kid or object your working on........timing is important.........


When he see's a child coming he puts his hair up and stares the child down. As I get his attention he stops staring for a sec and then gets his treat and goes back to staring as the child passes us. I don't like the glare type look he gives them. And the last thing I want is for him to take off chasing one down with me attached to the leash. So I don't allow him to look back when he is still on edge. When he acts better maybe I will but in the mean time I can't have him glaring at a childs face or back. I don't allow it.


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## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

Lizzie does the glare too....I think she goes into predator mode when looking at a child. Her whole stance changes. So we are doing all of your suggestions--and I surely appreciate it. We will be safe and keep working.
We did have one weird moment at Petsmart when we were walking her around the store to get used to the place. I was watching for kids and dogs so I could gauge her reactions and such. As we came to the end of an aisle, a young boy walked by with his mom, reached out, tousled her ears, and kept walking. Lizzie never reacted, in fact looked at me like "what just happened". The young boy had a very confident swagger and didn't even think about petting a strange dog. His mom did though. He got in trouble.


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

dianefbarfield said:


> Lizzie does the glare too....I think she goes into predator mode when looking at a child. Her whole stance changes. So we are doing all of your suggestions--and I surely appreciate it. We will be safe and keep working.
> We did have one weird moment at Petsmart when we were walking her around the store to get used to the place. I was watching for kids and dogs so I could gauge her reactions and such. As we came to the end of an aisle, a young boy walked by with his mom, reached out, tousled her ears, and kept walking. Lizzie never reacted, in fact looked at me like "what just happened". The young boy had a very confident swagger and didn't even think about petting a strange dog. His mom did though. He got in trouble.


Ace has had times like this also. I keep him with me at all times in public and my BF takes our female and the cart. I try 150% to not let things happen like that but sometimes it does. Like I said he is fine with my sisters kids but sometime he does react in a really bad way. Until we can figure this out he has no freedom with children. Progress takes time. Were getting better I know Lizzie will too. These dogs are so smart.

Oh yeah and good job to the mom that corrected her child!! Not enough of them around.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

it totally depends on the dog and the dogs threshold, as i said if the dog is close to or in react mode, then no not a good idea, but that also means you may have to back up a few steps because the target is to close if the dog is reacting like that......trying to pay more attention to body signals before they escalate.........it may not be possible to catch every situation, but knowing your surroundings having a plan b or c can help...trying to go places that have escape route if need be, etc....

i really try to set my dogs up for success, i try not to get them in a position that they will react like that, because it tends to become a behavior..any dog reacting with hair up, starring and lunging is to close to whatever is making them react.....


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> i really try to set my dogs up for success, i try not to get them in a position that they will react like that, because it tends to become a behavior..*any dog reacting with hair up, starring and lunging is to close to whatever is making them react....*.


I think that is a assumption. Ace is no where close to kids when he starts to react. We can be two or three houses away when he starts to act up. Every dog IS different. Ace's training is based on setting up for success. That's how I have trained both of my dogs. Aggression towards children will not be tolerated. 

Ace is a rescue. We got him when he was 5 months old. A family with 4 or 5 children had him for a couple weeks. I have a pretty good feeling it's from that time in his life.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

debbiebrown said:


> it totally depends on the dog and the dogs threshold, as i said if the dog is close to or in react mode, then no not a good idea, but that also means you may have to back up a few steps because the target is to close if the dog is reacting like that......trying to pay more attention to body signals before they escalate.........it may not be possible to catch every situation, but knowing your surroundings having a plan b or c can help...trying to go places that have escape route if need be, etc....
> 
> i really try to set my dogs up for success, i try not to get them in a position that they will react like that, because it tends to become a behavior..any dog reacting with hair up, starring and lunging is to close to whatever is making them react.....


Great post! The point is that you calmly, lovingly, TRAIN Lizzie how to react to kids. You can go to a playground when it's not too busy, standing as far away as necessary so that Lizzie is herself calm, but can still see kids. Treat, treat, treat while she sees kids and then walk away while she's still happy. Continue, but decrease the distance. The kids don't need to treat her-she may not be ready for that-but you can help her understand that kids=good things. The only time Wolf ever gets cheddar cheese is when my step grandson is around-so he is reasonably happy with the situation.

MJ


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i would accept the fact that lizzie is not good with children and entirely avoid her having contact with them. the alternatives others have suggested of trying to train her out of it or muzzle her are always options, but kids are so unpredictable and dogs usually absolutely hate being muzzled. sometimes i think that dogs tell us what they don't like and i'd always rather be safe than sorry.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think the biggest concern in alot of these unpredictable situation is the dog owner themselves, you try not to let it show that you are nervous about these meetings, but don't forget our dogs are very in tune with their own senses, which are tons keener than ours, they can smell fear, nervousness, even if you think your not, they know you are, which makes an unsure situation that much more, because they do take off on things like this.......if mom is calm, there must not be a problem type of thing.......so, being what it is, in order for the owner to get a grip on the problem you would be setting yourself up for greater successes if you start from a great distance with less distractions, and if you are more confident at the distance your dog will be too........this is how the handler can really practice on things at that comfort distance, because we all need to look at ourselves and what we are doing or not doing in order to help our dogs.........


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

also wanted to add, when the time comes that confidence is there both both the handler and the dog, your decreasing distance a bit at a time....but, also make it fun for them, mix the ob with tugging or something to relieve the stress for both of you, its so important to make things fun.......with some time and work, you will be able to move in close and i would do that with someone you know and their kids if possible, and i do think closer encounters for a long while should be the kids acting normal, not approaching or starring at the dog.........you can tell them what you would like them to do before hand, again setting up for success.......dogs are creatures of habit, the more they are around something with good feelings the more they will relax......and even enjoy. just need to make sure its always a good happy thing...........


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