# My trainer...



## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

...told me Aspen is immature. We have been going to a trainer that trains police K9, SchH and is getting into Agility. Well, Aspen and I are not able to go to the training often since I work most weekends. So, the last tie I was there was Feb 13. Aspen is doing very well and we introduced tracking today. He did awesome! But still, when the other dogs are doing bite work, he sits next to me, not barking, not doing anything. We tryed to get him to play with the leather rag and nada. However, when we are home, he is all over it as well as his bite pillow. 

So, my trainer said he is just immature. Any idea how long til he matures? My mistake. I neutered him at 12 weeks and I would never let him get the upper hand/dominance when playing. I sure hope he comes around. Any ideas how to get him more engaged when we are not at home?


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

When you say you always win in the tug game that maybe not helping at this age you have to let him win occasionally to build his confidence. If you have a hard time when on the filed with his bitework what are you doing outside of your home to build him? Also if he is just sitting there and not barking yet he still showing a lot of displacement and you may have to back off being in control of him to let him be a wild animal on the field. The downside is for pups they need the consistency to keep building on from first step to the next. So can you find a club that trains in the middle of the week by chance.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

I just started letting him win more a little while ago, but once again, this is at home. I think I need to try getting him to play more at the dog park (with toys). He has no issue playing with other dogs. In fact, that is an area I need to work on for his CGC test. My trainer is starting a Wed early evening training but these are more serious people. I am doing it more to bond with Aspen and for him to get a good mental workout. I guess it will be more time. I have seen other dogs like mine take leaps and bounds of improvements, but they go more often then me.

The trainer did say that at some time, if he chooses not to engage, we can do a pinch test. What is a pinch test???


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I believe it would be to show the threshold of the dog.
Flanking is another word for it. 
I would backtie Aspen and tease him up with a high value ball, tug or rag. Some dogs that have had lots of obedience put on them thru their young life are inhibited to show any excitement.
Aspen may have a high threshold and you'll need to work harder to bring out the drive, or he may just not have "it"
This video shows a young pup, but the concept is the same, did your trainer work with Aspen in this way?


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Can you go and watch on Wednesday nights?? That would benefit you both. Then decide if you think you want to join them in the class. I also dont know of any clubs that train Schutzhund and have other dogs in the building at the same time. The activity from the other dogs may be intimidating to him.

Just wanted to add, that is a very nice training video of a young pup.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

Here is what I saw on flanking..
FLANKING 
When the above outing procedures do not work there is a technique called flanking. This is why I mentioned before if you use your right hand to twist the collar you should get into the habit of standing on the dogs right side. 
As you twist the collar or pull the live ring in an upward motion with your right hand be sure you are standing on right side of the dog. While keeping your right arm inflexible and straight you reach down with your left hand and flank or pinch the dog in the soft area between the rear leg and stomach along the left side of the dog. At the same time you give the dog the out command. 
The flanking technique cause the dog to transfer his attention from the person his is biting to the discomfort of the flanking. The dog should release his hold of the person he is biting and direct his attention towards the discomfort of the flanking. Be aware that most dogs will turn their head towards the discomfort. This is why you do not want to leave your left hand down there. Once you have flanked the dog quickly move your hand away from the dog. By keeping your right and inflexible and straight you will keep the dog from coming back at you. This flanking or pinching motion is a very quick movement. Think of it like plucking a guitar string. 

Trainer said that some dogs may pee or deficate and they dont have it in them. We are going to give him more time since I am trying to break some of my old training. (ie...holding his mouth whem he was mouthing or nippy, etc)

Wed night I am in Advanced training til the end of the month. I am going to have to wait til that is over. Aspen does watch the other dogs when we are training. For the 1st time, he was kenneled most of the day between sessions yesterday. When I brought him out after tracking, he did jump and bite for his tug, till we were in front of everyone..then went shy.

Yesterday's training was to put him in a long stay and allow me to get out of his sight without getting up or crying.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would not put any compulsion or pressure on your pup! Let him gain some confidence on the field and see if he'll engage(like the pup in the video) There is no reason to do a flank or pinch....if you don't feel comfortable with this trainer, I would find another group or do something else with Aspen. 
Because you have put so much inhibition on him, you just have to work hard to undo some of that....and your trainer is right, he is immature and won't be mentally mature til about 2. 
But pups can still do some rag work to build confidence, and not have any pressure put on them until they are ready to handle it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

In my not so humble opinion, working a pup on a rag to "build confidence" is a mistake. Allowing a pup to watch and bark, ( on his own at a distance from the other dogs working), without having to confront the helper is a much better way to go. That is, if you can keep the helper away from the pup. Most just can't resist trying to give a bite at the very first whine or yip. 
Barking and chasing the helper away, ( done from a distance), builds confidence. Having a helper right on top of the dog, does not.


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

DolphinGirl said:


> Here is what I saw on flanking..
> FLANKING
> When the above outing procedures do not work there is a technique called flanking. This is why I mentioned before if you use your right hand to twist the collar you should get into the habit of standing on the dogs right side.
> As you twist the collar or pull the live ring in an upward motion with your right hand be sure you are standing on right side of the dog. While keeping your right arm inflexible and straight you reach down with your left hand and flank or pinch the dog in the soft area between the rear leg and stomach along the left side of the dog. At the same time you give the dog the out command.
> ...


Just my opinion but if you are looking to build up this pup's drive I would not be working on long downs out of sight at the field.

Again, IMO, working stationary/stay portions tends to put more obedience on a pup and at this time I would be looking to bring out more drive and excitement.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

I am working on going out of site and him not whining when I leave b/c I have the CGC test coming up and he failed that part. I cant leave him with a stranger or familiar without him whining and jumping. As soon as I get past the "final" (advanced class) we will work more on breaking my OB. It's just been so many weeks training to this point to stop before the test in 2 weeks. 

I really do like my trainer and he said the pinch test will be several months from now if Aspen doesnt come out of his shell. 

Today I went to the beach with Aspen, 2 of the trainers and another friend and our shepherds. aspen Brought out his bark and lunge at the turtle in the path. The 1 trainer just couldnt stop laughing. He said he was going to put a tutle shelll on his head for training.

I did notice if a person he barks at runs away, he holds his head higher. I really think it builds his confidence. I need to find more people to approach and run and see what he does.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

It sounds like to me in the desire to put a cgc on your less than 1yo dog you may have killed some of his drive. The drive is still there but you will have to work real hard to bring it back out. You may want to consider trying to get to the wed. class for you also and that may help him grow faster. Also you may want to consider working him in the ob and tracking portion only if he does not have the desire for bitework. To help bring out some of his drive you might want to do a little backtieing at home and work that way. Or even start working with him and a tug at the park so he has distractions around and build slowly.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

szariksdad....My trainer on Wed at petsmart also trains at the weekend place. I have gone through basic, int and now advanced with her. She sees where I am coming from and has seen his normal side vs his weekend training side. We have agreed to work on the OB and now tracking for a while, and let him watch the younger dogs in bitework. Each time I go, he improves. I know it will take time and patience. I really do agree I need to some backtieing. at the dog park, he is more concerned with playing with the other dogs then his toys.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Just my 2 cents...

I would agree that it sounds like in your quest for the CGC you have lost drive. Most of my SchH dogs are not prepared to do their CGC until 18-24 months when they are ready for their BH. 

Something you need to understand about the "pinch test"...(which actually doesn't make it sound like much at all...) is that this will put your dog in the frame of mind that it needs to fight for it's life...and it will either step up and bark/bite (and not in a confident way)...or it will express it's anal glands/pee/defecate. This is not fun- to watch or to be a part of. And while a really competent helper can bring a dog through this...it won't happen on occasional training. Additionally if you teach a fearful dog to bite when it is cornered and then from there do not have consistent committed training you are going to have a potential liability and not the friendly CGC dog you are working with now.

For me, if it gets to that point where it is necessary to go to that extreme...you're better off to just forget bitework.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I am a little confused here are you doing your cgc training at petsmart with a trainer for if that is the case. Based on whay I have seen the trainers at my local petsmart do for training they do nothing but kill drive in a puppy. I would recommend that you are only confusing your pup by doing the cgc so early and would slow down and learn the ob from the Sch trainer it may take longer to shape and come to final form. After when even teaching Sch ob. at our club we do all of the work in drive for that is when a dog wants to work and responds with quick action to commands. As our training director recommends you want the pup to be a little wild in training and building the bond with you so that when your pup sees another dog it ignores and goes about the training.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

My petsmart trainer doesnt follow the rules. She is not typical, she owns 2 shepherds and trains in SchH. She doubles on the weekend as an OB trainer at the OTHER training location. She has seen Aspen's pesonality in class at petsmart, the beach and SchH and is not discouraging the course I am on right now. She is also the CGC tester. I have not actively persued the CGC until recently. I have asked if doing some of the cgc training is bad for SchH and she has told me no b/c he needs a lot of this for the OB in SchH.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Alright then how is she teaching you guys your ob then. Does your ob trainer encourage him to play with his tug or do you use food for training ob? and how do they show you how to use food for ob esp. on the Sch side? I find this odd for her to say after all in Sch. you can not go for a BH before the dog is 15months so i think the trainer is pushing you along a little faster than needs to be done for a dog in my opinion. While she is correct that you will need some of this stuff for a BH why put all of it on your dog before he is 15months?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Tip - For the three minutes out of sight, try training this as an obedience exercise, aka a long down. A lot of shepherds have trouble with this one, yes even the supposedly perfect working line SchH dogs. I for one would never hand my dog (of any breed/line/training) off to a stranger and walk out of sight for several minutes but I like to have the CGC because we used to live in rental housing. I just train it as a long down. You can command the dog to down for the test, and you can ask the "stranger" not to touch or talk to the dog, just hold the line. Personally, I like my dogs to be alert and show that their preference is to be working with me and not left with a stranger. That doesn't mean I'm OK with throwing fits, and none of my dogs have separation anxiety (they all stay home in the house while I work). For me this is an obedience exercise and not a socialization or behavior exercise.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I would do the same as LIesje, though I can't see a young pup doing a 3 minutes long down with the handler out of sight, not as an obedience exercise and, at least, no without the use of compulsion. I can see a 7 months old beagle I'm training doing it, but because all the owners want for her is to behave nicely and she gets leash pops and other corrections if she moves. I can't see Akela, which I've been training with SchH in mind, and being a much more slow to mature male GSD, doing the same.

I agree that with all the issues Aspen already have, you need to chose between the CGC and the SchH training, at least until the pup gets older.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Agree, I think some choices need to be made or else this pup will just get confused or lose interest and focus. But if the OP chooses the CGC route, maybe it would help to train it that way.

ETA: Also I think a lot of problems people have with CGC stuff is because the pup is young and immature. Really, there shouldn't need to be a class or a lot of training in order to pass. If a dog is mature and has enough obedience training elsewhere (like SchH BH for example), you can usually attend a CGC test anywhere, don't have to be in the program or taking a class. Nikon tried at 7 months and failed b/c of the three minutes leave. He didn't throw a fit but was not ready to do a 3 minute long down with me out of sight, and his body language showed some distress. No biggy, I waited until he was more mature and then he passed fine.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

OK guys. I am going to finish my last 3 adv classes and try the CGC test. If he fails, so be it. I am more interested in my weekend training at SchH. 

As for how she trains us in the class, she allows treats to be used, but optherwise advises us against it. Toys are permitted, but out of ease, most of us use food. She also allows pronged collars where that is a "no no" for petsmart. Knowing me and the training I do, I usually get a few more tips and suggestions on how to work with Aspen in training. I dont mean to be pushing him, but I have paid for these classes and figure I might as well put them to good use. 

I was going to try the backtieing today, but the party was ruined when the bug man came and sprayed. Tomorrow I work all day and have class with Aspen at night. So, his training is postponed to Thurs. Let's see how he does with the backtieing.

As for the long stay, he is perfectly fine if I am in sight. For the CGC, I dont have to be out of site, but I have to be able to hand him to a stranger. As soon as the leash leaves my hand and I turn the other way, he whines. I did not put him in a stay while I left. I didnt know if it was in the rules and I didnt ask.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes you can command him to sit or down and stay for that exercise. For an official CGC, you will have to be out of sight for 3 minutes. Our tester actually requires us to leave the building (not just hide behind something).


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

So correct me if I read this wrong but you use food for ob training. You have to be careful with that since if used wrong food can actually kill drive in a pup. As far as a backtie go ahead an try but put the toy on a string so you can drag around and tease him with instead of make easy. Also go to the park with his tug and you and work on really engaging be as animated as possible with the tug and get him focused on it. In other words make you and the tug more exciting than any other dog or other distraction around you. This may take several tries. Once started get him to come out of this over obedience shell he will have fun and engage may take a while.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

DolphinGirl said:


> As for the long stay, he is perfectly fine if I am in sight. For the CGC, I dont have to be out of site, but I have to be able to hand him to a stranger. As soon as the leash leaves my hand and I turn the other way, he whines. I did not put him in a stay while I left. I didnt know if it was in the rules and I didnt ask.


When I took the CGC with Odin I had to leave the room. What complicated things for me though was I was about to put him in a down stay and the assistant took the leash and walked off with him. :crazy: I was a bit surprised that we passed that, actually.


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