# Food Agression/Dominance issues



## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

Hello,

I have a 13 week old pup who is growling, snarling, and trying to bite when we get close to him while he's eating. Also he humps my husband's leg. So is this related to his bloodlines/genetic or a learned behavior or something else? 

Here is his pedigree:

sire - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/484189.html
dam - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/531586.html

What are your thoughts?

Thank you,
Aneta


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

I think its somewhat normal behavior. I’m not really experienced with puppies so I don’t know what age to start the discipline. But I would be tempted to try to curb mounting humans and food aggressive behavior. I would be tempted to try to teach him not to be a food aggressive by taking his food away or moving him away from his food if he becomes food aggressive and only let him back to the food once he becomes calm and submissive.


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## Kruzayn (Jun 9, 2006)

I am no expert, but this sounds like a dominance thing. Humping is a show of dominance in a lot of cases and not sexual. Also in a pack, eating first / controlling the kill is done by the higher "ranks". Once they have had their fill the subordinates get their turn. 

Both things combined I would say the pup thinks he is the king of the hill (In my non-expert view of the world). I would say you need to reaffirm the pack order and make sure he sees you and your husband as the top...someone correct me if I am totally off base please!


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

Ikon only did the food guarding thing with me once... I scruffed him (picked him up by the scruff and moved him away from the food) Then put the food up for 5 minutes... next time he got the dish, my hand was in it, and it was between my feet. I allowed him to eat MY FOOD, rather than have him think it was HIS food. End of issue.

The humping, I'd suggest more exercise actually. Get him tuckered out and you'll see a lot of issues resolve. I know that when we have a wet rainy day and Ikon doesn't get his daily runs for balls or harassing Klytie he's a wildman in the house. If he gets enough exercise he's a very social, sweet calm dog... so any issues are with MY behavior mostly, not his.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

He thinks he is King of the Hill, you need to nib this in the butt right away before he is a big intimadating boy. Maybe he needs a stuffed animal ? LOL! Definitely stop the humping on humans pull him off gently and at the same time say NO very sternly. Keep doing it.

Feed him from your hand, fill his bowl and hold it close to you and pretend your eating it first, then take some out and feed it to him right from your hand flat, so he does not nip you by mistake. Then lower to the floor hold his bowl in your hand while he eats, if he growls say sternly NO maybe push him back gently and start over again. 

This may take several times but the minute he growls take the food away. I am not trainer but I have seen this done before.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree you need to nip this in the bud, asap..He's 13 weeks old and there should be no reason for him to be so guardy with his food at this age.

From the pedigree, you have no couch potatoe here, so working with him now is a must. 

I would feed him by hand on YOUR terms. I don't fool around with my dogs food dishes, (I figure would you want HIM fooling around in YOUR food dish?) but if I have to take the food away, I want to be able to. Feeding him by hand on your terms, may show him, there is no reason to be so posessive of his food, and that YOU are controlling the situation not him, (also works on bonding 

Just my opinion here, but I think giving him his food, taking it away when he growls, may backfire and he may become MORE possessive. He may stop the growl and go for a nice bite))

The humping, agree, a dominance issue, and I'd yank his butt off anything he tries to hump as well. 

Getting a handle on the food issue is paramount at this age, if you have kids in the house and one walks by while he's eating, well that may not have such a good ending. IF you can't control the eating habits, feed him IN his crate and don't let anyone mess with his food.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He is 13 weeks, the humping isn't dominance but just normal behavior. As the pup gets a little older that activity should wane, if not, then you can redirect the behavior. I wouldn't "yank" him, just get his attention elsewere til he gets older.
Remember the pup came from a litter and there would be a feeding frenzy if they were all in competition for a meal. Not sure if your breeder seperated the pups at mealtime, but I think that would have helped slow/stop the food guarding.

I agree, feed from hand for a few meals, see if it helps. And praise when pup takes it nicely.

I don't think it is fair to a pup or a dog to mess with them while they are eating. You make them sit or whatever before you give them the food and that is the reward for the command. If you pull it up while they are enjoying the reward, you are sending the wrong message.
My puppy is so food driven, but he would let me pick up his bowl or mess with his food, if I could grab it before he inhaled it up. I don't do this, however, for the reason stated above.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A 13 week old puppy does not hump humans in a display of dominance. Very common for pups to hump - it is a form of play -they are experimenting with various adult behaviours in their play. 

Re-direct to more appropriate behaviours. Pups this age don't need to be disciplined as much as they need to be led in the right direction. 

I took a look at the pedigrees you posted - now that is a serious working pedigree!!! The possessiveness you see is more than likely part of his genetic makeup. Often with puppies that have this much possesiveness in them, taking food away only re-inforces the behaviour - i.e: they worry about someone taking their food away, and with reason! Because dang humans are always messing with their food! Always a threat!!! You DON'T make a 13 week old "submissive". You show them that you are a good and fair leader, who is fair and full of GOOD things! 

Yes, the Omega eats last, after the Alpha, but once the Alpha allows the Omega to have his share, he does not change his mind half way and bully the Omega into giving his share up. 
A very successful way to deal with food possessiveness is to show your pup that your approach to his food is a GOOD thing.

Two things you can do:

Hand feed him all his meals, make him work for every handful, but make it fun and positive and rewarding. That will re-inforce that it is YOUR food, and you give it to him, but he has to earn it (probably just sits, and eye contact at this age). 

Another thing to do is to approach him with super-duper good treats and throw him a super-duper good treat when he is eating. 
Figure out how close you can get without getting him worried and growling about his food, throw him a treat, walk away. Do this a few times each meal. For some pups, you will only be able to get to a few feet to him, others you can walk right up and put the treat in his bowl. Watch his body language - if he tenses and tries to cover his food/bowl with his body in an effort to guard it - you are too close - give him more space to start. 

Do the treat throwing each time, and he will gradually relax, because your approach means GOOD things! He will start looking forward you coming in close to him when eating, looking forward, expecting you there. Then you will be able to put treats in his bowl, he will allow you to reach in his bowl. You can exchange his food for a treat, but his his food back. If he is naturally possessive of his food, once you have him comfortable with you or other approaching, and you can put your hand in his food or take it away, then stop doing it! You have proved your point, got him where you want him, now let him have his meals in peace. 

I can tell you that if everytime I wanted to eat, someone started messing with my food, teasing me with taking it away and giving it back, I would start getting pretty growly and possessive too!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

For such a young pup, I'd discourage the humping, but calmly getting up and moving away (or distracting with a good game of tug) maybe a better way to modify this behavior.

Once again, for a young pup, the food issue needs to be managed, not corrected. I'd personally NEVER free feed, and have 2 bowls. One with food on the counter and one empty for the pup on the floor. Then I would use my hand to put a few kibbles from the one bowl, into the one on the floor for the puppy. Do this for the entire meal.

Pup just needs to learn that I am not taking food away with my hand. I am GIVING the food. If you do this properly, they won't growl, makes no sense and they won't get fed. YOU are great. YOU are good. And it's YOU giving the food.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I got Balto at 3 months old and he had some food guarding. I fed him by hand a few times and that took care of it. Also, he was in a new home, so he was probably worried and not really secure yet. Only once since then has he ever grumbled about food and it was when I took a bone away from him.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

My male puppies have all humped at one point or another, actually so have my female puppies. Often it happens when they get excited, not really dominance. I don't yell at them, but I will gently put them off and ignore them...

I second the methods suggested and the feeding by hand. Don't try and take the food bowl. I fed by hand for awhile (I also did this to teach my dog to take things gently from my hand.) I would feed the whole meal like this for awhile and if they did good with that then I would only go about halfway and then reward with their bowl. I also did the putting food in the bowl while they were eating. Once they were used to eating in proximity to me from the hand feeding and I would give them the bowl, I would start to add things that were super to their bowl like pieces of hot dog or liver. 

After doing these things conistently, and then doing a brush up every month or so to reinforce the lesson I have never had a problem with posession over their food.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I agree with Lucia (Castlemaid). Excellent suggestions!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very serious pedigree with some strong dogs in it. Sounds like a dog that will need to have parameters set right now. I NEVER allow my dogs to growl at me and in a puppy we talk about it immediately so he doesn't have a frame of reference that he can ever growl at me.JMO


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Are you doing any motivional training with the pup? What behaviors does he know? what are your plans for this dog?


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I agree with Castlemaid 100%. I did all of those things with Denali even if she wasn't possessive with her food. I wanted her to see me as a source of good things around her bowl and that she knew it was me giving her the food. 
She's now almost 10 months old and I still have no issues with her and food and she's become very very food motivated.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Speaking of food aggression - I saw this video today on the Tierkerhook site. The title of the video is food drive.

http://www.tiekerhook.com/index.php/videos/55-fooddrive.html

I'm interested in what you guys think of this video.


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

Thank you everyone for all the great ideas and for caring.

So just to be more specific, none of us mess with his food nor try to take it away from him. He growls and snarls and tries to bite when we walk by where he is eating or look at him while he is eating.

Also this aggressive growl is now permeating in to his play with us; for example when we play tug or ball with him, he grabs the tug or the ball (when we let him do it), then we tell him good boy and try to pet him, he turns around sometimes and tries to bite the hand that's trying to pet him. Not right by me, I tell him no biting sternly but not getting through to him yet. Any advice about this?

I contacted the breeder about these issues and he suggested that we put him on his back and hold him down until he submits. Not sure if this is the best way though. My husband tried this yesterday and he seemed to get mad after he was released from submitting and walked away and wouldn't look at us. Was this considered a break through? But then today the same aggression came out again. So does it mean that this protocol is not working or does it need to be repeated again?

I don't want to make him insecure, scared of us, not confident, etc. I am trying to find the best way to deal with this issue.

Thank you everyone once again. 

Aneta


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

the breeder is suggesting you do what's called , an alpha roll. I personally wouldn't do it especially if you dont' know the concept behind alpha rolling. 

In my opinion, alpha rolling is going to make a tough little nut, WORSE, and it's a good way to get your face or other parts of your body BIT GOOD.

I still suggest hand feeding him all his meals. One piece at a time if you have to. 

If what your doing is not working, (and it looks like it is not!) I highly suggest you find a gsd savvy trainer, (sorry I wouldn't listen to your breeder after the alpha roll suggestion)..

If you read cliftonanderson's post, you see what you could be in for) if you can't get a handle on his behaviors. 

It sounds like you need more help with this puppy than can be offered off a web site..time to find a trainer or a behaviorist .


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

Agree with Diane. The responses above make some excellent suggestions - why not try one of them? We always followed NILIF since our pup was 8 weeks and it worked pretty ok. I would try anything other than following your breeder's advice.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: anetaAlso this aggressive growl is now permeating in to his play with us; for example when we play tug or ball with him, he grabs the tug or the ball (when we let him do it), then we tell him good boy and try to pet him, he turns around sometimes and tries to bite the hand that's trying to pet him. Not right by me, I tell him no biting sternly but not getting through to him yet. Any advice about this?


Are you sure his growl is aggressive when he plays? Pups do growl when they play, and they bite, and some bite hard but it's play not aggression. If you do want to work your dog (otherwise why would you choose this pedigree in the first place? ) then you need to figure out the balance that will satisfy you and your pup needs as well. 

When my puppies are young I do not say no biting, I do not correct, I redirect and teach them the way I want them to play. Sometimes I was not fast enough and my hands and ankles got caught between those teeth but I did not correct anyway. Unless your puppy is a genetic monster he's not aggressive at 11 weeks, he just knows no better and he's confident and tough which is a very good thing. It's your responsibility to set the limits and enforce them without breaking his spirit.


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

Hi Oksana,

When he plays he does make various sounds, some are playful bite/growl and that's fine but some are no longer playful at least in my opinion. Of course I want him to be confident and tough but since he also lives with us in the house (and we have kids too) the aggressive growls and bites shouldn't be there - I think. So that's what I'm trying to figure out - how to best manage him without destroying his character/personality.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is probably going to annoy some people, but, Aneta, you might consider returning this puppy and getting one that is a better match for your level of experience. IMO you, your family, and, more importantly, the puppy will all be far happier.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That suggestion actually makes me glad - I was just too big a weenie to make it myself! 

My puppy did/does those things - and when I watch my dogs that is exactly how they play with each other. 

When someone pushes it, the others will give a verbal correction bark at him (our EH! noise) and walk away. Oh, the shame to be shunned. So, the puppy (okay, he's 9 months...whatever...) sits for a second and you can see him replaying it in his mind (he's probably just catching his breath, but he looks so thoughtful) and he tries again and modifies his behavior. 

I don't mind that he does this with me either, but if that didn't match my comfort level, it wouldn't be good for either of us. We would constantly be messing each other up. When he had his puppy test (I foster him) I specifically asked the evaluator who knows me well, is this too much dog for me. She said he is going to give you a run for your money, but you'll be okay. 

That idea of match means a lot, and you really see it when you've fostered or bred more than a few puppies. When it's a good match, everything feels natural. When it's not it is like a really bad date. 

So back to what Lisa said, I agree.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was wondering what endeavor you got this puppy for? I am thinking this is going to be a strong, intelligent dog who will require very good leadership, guidance and consistent activities that constitute "work" for him. If he is to be a family pet only then you probably need to consider expanding your involvement in dog activities in a major way. You will need to be on a steep learning curve regarding daily life with a strong temperament dog. If I were looking for a competition dog, I would definitely like your pup but that is after having had a number of dogs, some of them with pretty strong temperament. In the past, I got in over my head and you can ask my now grown kids what a pleasure that wasn't. 

I really don't get any kick backs from Ed, but I just can't think of anyone else who has such video informatioon. He has a DVD on rank within the family.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNQuqY1oXpE&feature=related


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthThis is probably going to annoy some people, but, Aneta, you might consider returning this puppy and getting one that is a better match for your level of experience. IMO you, your family, and, more importantly, the puppy will all be far happier.


Just because I am asking if this is normal or how to deal with it does it mean that I should return the pup? Really! Come on, you've got to be kidding. So maybe I should get a fish instead according to that assessment. 

I have had many dogs and GSD's before from various lines and I never had any of them try to bite me while they were eating and I happened to walk by. I personally don't think this is normal. Perhaps you with more experience do. Any dog should learn manners and how to exist in a family setting unless they are wild wolves or coyotes. That doesn't mean they should be returned. Perhaps that's why there are so many dogs in shelters. No one bothers to take the time to figure out how to best manage issues. I don't think it's irresponsible of me to consult with people who may know better than I on how to best resolve this. That doesn't mean this pup is not the right match for us.

I also know the difference between play barks, bites, and growls versus the ones out to get you.

Thank you for your advice and concern.

Aneta


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Aneta, please don't feel defensive because I don't think anybody meant to offend you. Sometimes people may say something that sounds harsh but that's because they really care for the best outcome for both you and the puppy. If you are willing to learn and won't get easily turned off than you will have all the help and support from all the members on this board. 

I do not think you should return the puppy but I do believe you do not need to jump to labeling your puppy's behavior as 'aggressive' and 'not normal' just because you haven't encountered something like this with your previous dogs. 

You actually received good and relevant advice and got your questions answered in this thread. For biting it's redirection, for food aggression it's hand feeding and putting good things in the bowl every time you are near, for kids it's supervision, and in general NILIF right away. Also in line should be joining some kind of dog training club and researching trainers as well as connecting with a network of GSD owners what you are doing as we speak. I think you will do great and this dog will be the best you've ever had!


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Only feed him after he has been in a down stay and calm. Reward the calmness with his food. Control the meal,take it away and when he calms down again,return it. Never feed an excited or snarling pup. He must be calm.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Any dog should learn manners and how to exist in a family setting unless they are wild wolves or coyotes. That doesn't mean they should be returned.


I don't know why people ask for opinions and then get emotional when people give them. Of course, everyone is going to have a different take on this and mostly , at this point, I agree with Lisa. I think lots of people have had dogs previously but some dogs, especially nowadays it seems, can be a real challenge. There are certain bloodlines that bring a bit more of things that many people are not accustomed to. In many ways they are not really traditional GSD behaviors. 

The food aggression thing could be from temperament, or maybe the food the dog is eating . I think I read a thread about this pup having diarrhea and eating raw. A couple of people thought it could be coccidia causing the diarrhea but I did not look to see the outcome or if that was the cause . That's not something that doesn't happen to lots of pups but if the pup has had digestive issues and is also eating raw, I guess I might be willing to understand some growling. I don't raw feed but I have boarding clients who do and I have fed it. The "intensity" those dogs eat that food with is well...intense. When I feed those dogs I don't stay there in the area while they eat it. They are so crazed about the food as it is , I certainly do not want to do anything to make them eat it faster or to agitate them. Almost all of them grab the food and move away to a corner to eat it. The possessive behavior is quite apparent and to me, it made sense. That's some good food there and they did not want anyone else getting any of it. 

I think people get a little nutty sometimes trying to fix what they think is not normal. Usually, this has the effect of making matters MUCH worse. I don't worry so much about the things the dogs are doing but I DO worry when dogs like that are in the hands of the "fixers" and are insisting that the dog fit in immediately. 

I had a dog here that I got when he was about 14 months old. When he first arrived he would "viciously " growl at me if I stayed in the area for even a few seconds once I put the food down. Yeah, it was like nothing I had ever seen before and at first, it offended me. I thought to myself; "you crazy *&$% idiot. He would punch the fence and growl with all his teeth showing if I was outside the dog run when his food was there. I thought about that behavior for a couple of days and decided to ignore it. I just gave him the food and walked away. I did not put him in an area where I would be close by when he ate either. It was his food and I left him to inhale it alone. Over time, the behavior went away where I could be in the run, walk by close and he would not growl. He learned to trust that I had no interest in his food because I showed NO interest in it. Even though it went away with me, would I have that dog in the house with kids nearby when he was eating? NO!!! Not the situation for that dog, period.

This is where what Lisa said comes back into this. If someone has kids that they are worried about and maybe know in their mind that this is going to be really stressful and difficult for the family, well yeah, it is better to return the dog and allow the breeder to find a more appropriate home . It is indeed a better thing for the dog as well. The dog can't help being who he is, it is not his fault. Asking the dog to be something else is not fair either. Many times, these things are more a management issue than a training or changing the dog issue. However, you have to have that environment or set up to manage it successfully. If I had tried to feed that 14 month old in my kitchen, while I stayed in the area or tried to force him to endure that, it would have gotten very ugly, very fast and would have become a BIG problem.
Now, this is an 11 week old pup, so, it is not quite as dangerous as that other dog could have been but the dynamic might be the same. I think I would allow the pup his own space to eat his food for a while. Sometimes, that has the effect of taking the edge away and he will feel less anxiety about keeping possession of the food. Just leave him alone for a while and see what happens. Then reassess the situation and decide if the pup is the right one for your family. Might be he will always have to be segregated when he eats. You have to decide if that is something you want to deal with for maybe 13 years or so.

Yeah all that stuff about throwing better food in the bowl might work also but if the growl continues when you do that, I would not keep that up. It also matters what your body language is telling the dog when you approach the bowl with that food. Many people, and especially a child who might be frightened by it, send the absolute WRONG signals and that aspect alone will make everything much worse. It doesn't have to be a case where they are adding food to the bowl either. If they are in the area and react to the growling in some way, the dog sees it and it feeds into the behavior. You have to be calm and show no concern or hesitation and you have to ignore the growling. That is where the family thing comes in . Every family member is different and will display a different body language around the pup . Aneta might have nerves of steel and handle the situation brilliantly. That doesn't mean the kids or husband will. Your behavior and attitude plays a HUGE role in this and the more people involved, the less consistent the response to the dog is. That makes this very difficult and again, goes back to what Lisa was trying to say. 

It comes down to understanding your own limitations and that includes the family thing. You are basically saying that the dog must fit in the family. Well, there is no MUST with dogs, they are who they are just like your family is who they are. You can't make the dog someone he is not. You can make adjustments youself to better accomidate the dog but you can't "change" them unless it wasn't really a problem in the first place. That could also be a possibility, obviously, we are all limited in how much we can help without seeing it. 

Again, with certain dogs,( not just wolves and coyotes), it makes it very difficult when there is more than just you there.
Good luck.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lrodptlOnly feed him after he has been in a down stay and calm. Reward the calmness with his food. Control the meal,take it away and when he calms down again,return it. Never feed an excited or snarling pup. He must be calm.


Why would you take it away? If you've given it to him once after he is given the reward, that should be good enough, taking it away just aggravates the pup and if they are very food motivated, it would make a food aggressive dog even more ramped up.
My pup is all about food, and I could care less if he is calm while eating, as long as he has done the command before I give him his meal(reward).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

aneta, you are getting some good advice. I recently returned a dog I got from a breeder, I never, never, never, NEVER thought that I would EVER return a dog - he started out nice and sweet and sleepy, and just perfect for me in everyway, then as he matured, a very serious side of him came out that made daily living with him a real challenge - and a risk. 

It felt like I had failed him, and the breeder whom I respect tremendously, but bottom line was that all I was doing every minute and every day was managing him and his environment, and controlling all activities and resources, all the time. It broke my heart and made me feel awful, but I returned him - all who have seen and worked with the dog agreed that was the best thing for him and for me - he needed a different placement, a different working environment - an no reflection on me and my dog handling/training abilities - as challengine as he was, I did pretty well with him. I still miss him terribly, I even cry over him still







, but I know keeping him would have been issues 24hrs a day, and I did the right thing for him to get him in a real working home, with professional handlers who can appreciate his personality and get the best out of a dog like him. 

My new dog fits like a silk-lined glove. He feels like he has always been here, having him here is as smooth and easy as flowing water - what a difference, sweet and easy-going, no signs of unwarrented aggression at all! He is nothing but joy, the whole situation seems to have been designed so that Gryff got a home with me. 

People are not attacking you at all, these behaviours in a 9 week old are not "normal" - your new pup will be a challenge, and I would be very concerned about him being in a household with young children. I would not try to dominate this pup and re-inforce his possessiveness by takingh is food away. I would really consider bringing him back.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Excellent post, Anne, except for the parts about raw feeding.









Nike was food aggressive as a puppy and at almost 10 years of age she will still growl at me if I bother her while she is eating. I can take anything from her without worry, but if I were to pet her while she eats she will growl and make all sorts of ugly faces. Her growling started at 4 months of age. At first I tried the normal corrections that I had used on a couple of previous dogs. This actually escalated the behavior so I ended up using some obedience instead. She would have to sit/down or give me focus for a short bit and then I would feed her. I saw no reason to be harassing her while she eats so I have left her alone. I can walk past her, take anything she is eating (as I said above) and she hasn't tried to bite me, snarled at me or gotten nasty since the initial episode. The food is mine, but once I let her have it then I will not try to take it from her again. She eats in my kitchen. If I had children she would eat in a crate. I have never dealt with this in any of her kids or grandkids maybe because they were weaned with me handing them pieces of raw meat and raw meaty bones (I feed raw) and fed separately as they got older. Nike was with her littermates until she was 9.5 weeks old and had to fight for her food.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lrodptlOnly feed him after he has been in a down stay and calm. Reward the calmness with his food. Control the meal,take it away and when he calms down again,return it. Never feed an excited or snarling pup. He must be calm.
> ...


Feeding or rewarding an excited pup or dog nurtures excited behavior. I control the food,when I take it away the pup responds by going into a down position. He gets the food back when he shows relaxation or disinterest,sometimes as long as 5 minutes which seemed like forever but it's gotten much shorter. He didn't get more aggravated,not even at first,he learned. He would climb the counters after food and charge around the kitchen during prep,he now goes to a down and waits. His behavior has completely changed.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Our adult GSD was similar but soon changed and now he leaves the kitchen during food prep and only comes in to eat after being called. Any dog,child or stranger can approach or remove his food without any worry.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

lrodptl, didn't you mentioned in some other thread that you had to rehome one of your GSDs because you couldn't handle him and you felt he was dangerous? Then I guess you know more then anyone that techniques that work on one dog would not work on another.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> Well, there is no MUST with dogs, they are who they are just like your family is who they are. You can't make the dog someone he is not. You can make adjustments youself to better accomidate the dog but you can't "change" them unless it wasn't really a problem in the first place.


 This simple truth took me some time to realize but it made my life so much easier. It applies to people relationships too









Excellent post, Anne, thank you for sharing your experience.

Lucia, I think you did absolutely the right thing rehoming your boy; not everyone could step on their ego and think about the dog's interest first.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Thank you Oksana, it does mean a lot to have people's support in my decision, though I would have done the same regardless what other people thought. Hard to think clearly and see the situation for what it is when one is so emotionnally vested in a dog one has raised from puppyhood. 

I've always said that any dog that comes into my home has a home for life, but I always tried to keep from passing judgement on others who may have had to return or rehome a dog, because I'm not in their shoes, I cannot judge the situation.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07lrodptl, didn't you mentioned in some other thread that you had to rehome one of your GSDs because you couldn't handle him and you felt he was dangerous? Then I guess you know more then anyone that techniques that work on one dog would not work on another.


Yes we had to rehome one GSD but not because of food aggression and we got that pup late in the game and it was our first GSD over 20 years ago. I also think that there are general common sense tools that will work with most dogs if you are consistent and I learned from that experience. If excited,aggressive or neurotic dogs are rewarded or fed while being excited,aggressive or neurotic why would that dog learn that the behavior is unwanted? He's being rewarded while in that state of mind. Just what I've learned and experienced with my dogs after losing Bruno.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

What about new studies of wolves showing no Alpha or Omega exists in the wild,just family hierarchy? The only examples of Alpha and Omega were with wolves that were actually in a controlled or captured situation. Now dominance is just a way a dog gains priority access to food,water,love,breeding etc........ Controversial? All we have is our own experience if Scientists are now shooting down traditional beliefs and what I shared was my experience once again. 20 books,20 processes.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:Excellent post, Anne, except for the parts about raw feeding


 Just to clarify. I was not saying raw feeding causes food aggression. I was saying if the pup had been sick and off his food for a while and then given high value food like raw, he may have growled out of excitement. Most people react to a dog doing that and then it goes down hill from there. 

I had a friend who had a young Malinois. A guy in her club continually warned her that the dog was going to bite her some day. Turned out, that guy was really afraid of dogs and was putting his fear into her. It worked. It had the affect of making her really leery about her dog. One day she gave him a bone and decided to test. Yep, he growled. When she told me about it I asked her a few questions about the way she approached the dog and as I suspected, her behavior was similar to stalking, making the dog want to protect his bone from her. I told her to try it again a few days later and to simply walk by like she is headed elsewhere. She did, nothing happened. She walked by closer, still nothing and then she stood there, still nothing. She hasn't had any further issues and she stopped having those conversations with her club member. Those little things we do when we have some fear or uncertainty the dogs see in an instant and in some dogs it brings out behaviors that many people do not understand.

I had a client call me about 15 years ago. She was really upset and ranting about the dog I sold them. Said the dog growled at her when he was eating and she had kids etc etc etc. So, I went over to have a look for myself since this was the first she had mentioned it. I asked her for a bowl of food and she handed it to me. I set it down and the dog started to eat. I stood right there next to him...nothing...no growl just a dog eating. I moved around and even bumped him a little, still nothing but eating. So, I picked up the food and handed it to her. I said OK, I am going to sit over here and I want you to show me exactly what you do when you feed him. So, she started . "First I go to the can and get the food. Then I walk here to the middle of the garage and put it down". She did and the dog started eating. "Then I back up and then I come back again". As she started to approach the bowl her entire body language changed. You could see the hesitation and it was that same stalking behavior my other friend was doing without realizing it. I started to say WAIT and right then the dog started to growl. That was an easy one to fix because the kids and the husband were not afraid of the dog and once I pointed it out, she adjusted.

The reason I am bringing it up is because people do these things and have no idea what it is saying to the dog. It can be very, very subtle where only someone that knows dogs and behavior can see it in the people but the dogs never miss it. I do that stalking/ hesitant thing when I approach the sleeve or rag in protection training,.... great for getting the dog to bark aggressively at me. That's what I am talking about with the body language. It is very difficult for most people to control what their hand is doing when their mind is afraid or uncertain or expecting pain from a nip or a bite. They keep doing it though and it gets worse and worse, just like I could make a dog very possessive and aggressive about the rag in protection if I did what I said above in every session. 

Sure, sometimes the dogs growl just because they have the food but its the reaction of the people and what goes on in the days following it that can make it better or worse. With some dogs they just do it because of temperament. There are other dogs who are much more tolerant of the mistakes people make. Those are the better family dogs and it certainly doesn't mean they won't do SchH.

I can't say what is exactly going on in this situation with the pup, just putting it out there for people to consider. When you do protection work, you become very aware of how easy dogs can see the tiny little things we do. Many times it seems they can read our minds but it is that very, very subtle change in our bodies that they see. That is their first language.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't think anyone meant to offend you by saying that maybe you should return the dog. The people who suggested this to you are actually quite experienced and have placed puppies with people before. 

Personally, it's hard to make a suggestion without seeing the little guy. I think if I were you I would consult a good trainer or behaviorist with past experience in working breeds. They should be able to give you a better assessment of the behavior and your ability to handle it. I think that food guarding is actually quite a natural instinct. I certainly don't think it's abnormal, but it's not something you want around children. I think that training can help with it and eliminate it in a lot of dogs. Every dog is different though, and managment may be needed for the life of the dog during feeding time. I could put up with that BUT it's not something I would want to manage if I had kids and would have to work with the breeder to take him back, even if it broke my heart. 

It doesn't mean you've failed if you have to give the puppy back. It just means he wasn't the best match for you. There's nothing wrong with that! It means you've done the best thing for the puppy and for yourself. Please don't take offense that people suggested that







They are only trying to explain that sometimes that happens and it is for the better outcome. You may not have to do that at all! 

Let us know how it goes and good luck!


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

Aneta, is it possible for you to record one meal on video and post the link? You may get some very specific pointers once everyone is able review the episode first hand. Just a thought.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i got my puppy at 9 weeks old. whenever we fed him
we would pet him, stand over him, rub his tummy, 
rub his tail, etc. while he was eaing i would put my hand 
in his bowl. sometimes i would reach in his bowl and feed him by hand. sometimes we turned the Dremel on and rubbed him with it while he was eating or touch his nails. my dog is 2.5 years old and he shows no aggression if your near his food bowl or water bowl.

my GF had a client here. my dog was eating dinner.
while we were talking the client bent down
and started petting our dog on the head. my dog never
looked up. one of my daughters stays with us 3 nights a week.
my daughter can put her hand in my dogs bowl or move while
he's eating.


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

Dear Group,

I really truly appreciate all the ideas and suggestions. We already implemented some and they seem to help.

Anne, you are correct about my previous post in regards to diaherria ad here's just a brief update. When the pup arrived (from a kibble fed breeder) I think the stress of 2 flights, being given a DHLPP and dewormer the day before, new food introduction, etc. created this issue. I did get the stool tested and there was no coccidia. The thing that helped was pure pumpkin puree. And after one dose of that everything normalized almost immediately. He's fine now.

I also agree that not all dogs are right for all families, however, I don't feel that this pup is not right for ours. Learning his style, knowing his temperament, and implementing right tactics is key. Hence my post and my desire to gain greater knowledge on the correct approach for us and for him. 

With my experience thus far I never dealt with this before and was always told that you should be able to take his food away, toy away, etc., without experiencing aggression from the dog. But I never tried to take his food away from him, ever. So that puzzled me. Also, between speaking to a few experienced GSD people (including his breeder) I received conflicting information and was stuck on what is best to do in this situation. Again hence for the post.

My family and I love this pup and are committed to doing the best we can. He's a great boy thus far (of course there are some issues but every dog and person has theirs) and nothing in his demeanor has proved to us that we have to return him. But we do have to learn and that's what I am trying to do. You are right Anne, just like each person and relationship is different so are dogs (of course I knew that). But there's lots of conflicting information out there on how dogs "supposed to be," or what is "normal," and how people train and live with their dogs.

Thinking back now I do think some of my actions may have caused him to be more possessive: while walking he picks up rocks, leaves, other things and tries to eat them, so I take it out of his mouth and throw it away. This may have set in his mind the possibility of his food being taken away. 

We have also upped his exercise routine and added more challenge to it. This too seems to help.

As far as being calm waiting for his food, he always sits patiently on his towel and waits for me to put his food down. As soon as he hears the refrigerator open (around his meal time) he watches me and when I bring his box of food out he calmly goes to his towel (eating area) sits down and waits for me. He was this way from day one, I just showed him where his food will be served.

Thank you everyone once again for all your suggestions. 

Aneta


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Aneta,

I think the suggestion of returning the puppy, since no one has seen the puppy (video) was also based on the breeding of the dog. Fairly strong, based on paper.

And we had a food aggressive dog. Gabor's dog Drigon. Gabor's thought - why are you messing with a dog when he/she is eating? This was a very strong working dog, high aggression, dominant (multiple World level helpers wary of him), but excellent with small dogs and children.


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

Sue,

I never messed with him while he was eating. 

The reason I posted this here was to see if his bloodlines were producing this or is it something he learned or natural for these type of dogs. I just wanted to get as much information as possible on his genetic make-up and the best way people handle this sort of thing.

But I did get great ideas here, thank you everyone, and he seems to be better now. 

Happy Holidays,
Aneta


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not knowledgeable about lines or breeding, but if I had a pup with challenging behaviour and knowing the pedigree behind him, I would wonder what I was in for. I have never seen a working line pedigree with that level of line-breeding on some very well known, very strong dogs. 

My understanding is that line-breeding is used to concentrate certain traits. With that level of concentration on some well known very serious dogs, how much aggression, possesiveness, hardness, etc . . . would be passed on down to your pup? I don't know - just wondering about it, there are very experienced breeders here who would know more about this kind of breeding. They would know more about the individual dogs in the pedigree, and how line-breeding at that level could affect a pup. 

But each puppy is an individual and would try and work with your pup as an individual. 

It sounds like you are getting a good handle on him, hope things work out!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I "think" I am looking at the right pedigree but I don't see lots of linebreeding. I see a 5-5 on Xando Karthago.

BTW, I did not comment based on the pedigree. I commented based on what Aneta said about the pup. I don't do the pedigree psychic thing. I think the Fax Kasbachtal dog was/is supposed to be a nice dog. A friend of mine bred to him and two of the pups boarded here. I made it out of the run unscathed each time I fed them.







Never heard my friend say anything about food aggression in those pups.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

No hopefully nothing meant to offend. 

I think you did ask if the behavior was normal and stated that you didn't have experience with such. That will give people a moment of considering if this is a good match possibly. 

Food aggression normal. I don't know. I guess it is in some dogs. have certainly seen it more than once and seen it go very badly or okay depending on the dog and owner. As others mentioned, they have experienced it and dealt with it without much ado.

We don't know if it is occuring out of powered up hunger, out of fear, out of possession,dominance,etc. As Anne mentioned, we don't know the human behavior side either. 

I think that generally these things go best when handled by confident handlers. Hopefully, you have the experience and dog savvy to make the way through it well. Most importantly the dog will be reading the human behavior interacting with it.

I was wondering how you decided upon this breeding for a dog for you guys? Do you know other people with similar dogs who can help? Did someone help direct you? Maybe someone you know from training these lines, or this type of dog (whatever the dynamic is) could assist.

The breeder was surprised or not? Has seen the behavior in others?
Obviously they have their approach to dealing with it. We may or may not agree with it. I think sometimes the effect is due to who is doing it much more than the particular approach. One thing I have learned, a dog can read "who I am" in a hurry and that makes all the difference sometimes. 

None of us really know how your relationship will go. Hopefully, the aggression does not come from a place in the dog that is difficult to deal with. I do imagine it is a very bright and fun to interact with dynamic pup!!


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

Hi Samba,

Yes I did have help in selecting this breeding. I wasn't sure if I wanted to do Sch but I wanted a pup that had good temperament, smart, sound nerves, healthy, long living bloodlines, and if I decided to do Sch he would be capable of it. 

The breeder imported the mom already pregnant from Belgium. He is not the type of breeder who is surprised by anything I think. I am sure he had experience with aggression of this nature because he immediately insisted that I do the Alpha roll to nip it in the butt right away before he get any bigger/older. Upon further research though I was not sure that this was the optimum way of handling things.

I have to say that this pup is very serious, very loving towards people, adores kids, very opinionated (you say one word he has 10 to tell you back), drivey but not hyper or over drivey, quick learner, confident, and a great pup overall. However he has his moments.

When we play tug with him (his super favorite game) he gets rallied up and intense. When you try to pet him while he's tugging (just to tell him good boy) he will give you that serious growl (not the playful type) or tries to snap/bite at the hand that's petting. 

The food aggression seems to have gone. When I approach him while he's eating I give him a piece of liver or gizzard and he drops what ever he has in his mouth comes and eats what is in my hands, licks my hand and goes back to his food. I am also able to put the water bowl right next to him while he's eating and he doesn't growl or show any signs of aggression. I walk back and forth and no reaction too. Major improvement I must say. 

Aneta


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal I think the Fax Kasbachtal dog was/is supposed to be a nice dog. A friend of mine bred to him and two of the pups boarded here. I made it out of the run unscathed each time I fed them.


Super funny. Couldn't stop laughing. Thank you Anne.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oh, I'm sorry, I went back to take another look at the linked pedigrees, and they are not what I thought they were! I apologize, that is not excessive line-breeding, and it should not be cause for concern. 

There was another posted pedigree that I was confusing your puppy with, aneta. Now it is bugging me, I need to try and find it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Dang it, can't find it. Even your eyes would have popped open in surprise at that pedigree Anne. About a dozen line-breedings listed for the first 5 generations. Well knowns famous names like Troll, Blacky, and others. Line breedings going to 2-3, and 3-3. Looked like a show-line pedigree, LOL. 

I'm sorry again about the confusion, aneta.


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

No problem Lucia. Don't worry about it. 

Happy holidays,
Aneta


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