# Hates "Restraint"



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm a bit annoyed at myself right now for this. Viking was always an angel at the vets. He didn't bat an eye at the shots, he didn't mind his ears being checked, etc. His only vice at vets is that we still can't get him to be still for a rectal. At home I've been working with him to make sure he's used to having his paws, ears, etc touched. I do a little bit (just a minute or two) every day just because as he gets older his energy levels are rising and he is getting squirmier. 

Well today at the vet, he would not stay still at all to get his ears checked out. He actually growled at the assistant when she gently held him in place (she wasn't full on restraining him, just blocking him so he couldn't walk across the table). When they gave him a vaccine via the nose he bobbed his head a lot and when they gave him one via the shoulder... you would think they were murdering him. I was petting and hand feeding him the entire time like always and he just ignored the food and tried to squirm and get away.

I feel like this is my fault, because I haven't been working enough with him on being handled. I was always afraid that if I did too much I'd over stress him so I kept everything short, light and fun. He's been socialized well with strangers and does not mind them one bit. He has only growled at one person before and that is our housemate (he was riling Viking up and has since been reprimanded).

Oddly enough, when they were showing us how to trim nails (I previously just filed them) he would not allow himself to be held but platzed and relaxed no problem while they touched his front paws. 

I did hold him for a short period and he squirmed like _****_ but he did not growl at me. I'm not sure what's going on here. I am intending to do private training though to work on a few things so I'll bring it up with the trainer... but I thought I'd go to you guys. What am I doing wrong?  I've never hurt him and his handling sessions always end with him all smiling and happy so I don't get what caused this 180 in vet office behavior.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Some dogs just don't like the vet. I think they realize after a while, that it may hurt a little when they go there. I had to drag Chief into the vet when he was alive, and he used to lift his leg and pee on the wall in front of the vet every time. Wolfie has to sit in my lap with his head buried in my shoulder in order for the vet to examine him. I socialized the heck out of both of these dogs, and brought them to the vet just to say hello or to pay a bill. I got them used to being handled. It didn't help at all once it came to exam time.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Here's my philosophy.

At home, I prepared Hunter for examinations (I am an Animal Care technician, so I know the routine) weekly. I touch his paws roughly, I mess with his ears, I pull up his lips and examine his mouth, I check his "man parts" and move his body for motion. 

When it comes time to visit the vet, nothing phased Hunter. He fell asleep through his first three examinations and vaccines. I make sure Hunter understands that I expect him to stand still, that I am here to protect him, and that I have a no-nonsense way of tolerating struggling and noisiness. He knows the command "enough" and he knows how to "wait", so I use both of those to shape his behaviour in these situations.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> Here's my philosophy.
> 
> At home, I prepared Hunter for examinations (I am an Animal Care technician, so I know the routine) weekly. I touch his paws roughly, I mess with his ears, I pull up his lips and examine his mouth, I check his "man parts" and move his body for motion.
> 
> When it comes time to visit the vet, nothing phased Hunter. He fell asleep through his first three examinations and vaccines. I make sure Hunter understands that I expect him to stand still, that I am here to protect him, and that I have a no-nonsense way of tolerating struggling and noisiness. He knows the command "enough" and he knows how to "wait", so I use both of those to shape his behaviour in these situations.


I need someone to help me with that. I'll try doing it a little rougher next time.

What annoyed me more is there was a substitute vet in and he complained that my dog wasn't "trained" well enough and he was being "aggressive". He acted afraid of my 11 week old puppy. I'm irritated with how Viking misbehaved, but it was a complete surprise and he almost always behaved at home when I handled his ears, mouth, etc. It's not like I just let him run loose like some wild dog! I made a request that next time, they're to call me if my regular vet isn't in so I can reschedule. 

Are there any "how to" articles I can find on what specifically to do? How do I know I'm not over stressing him when I try to do it and he's still struggling?


Edit: yes, I just tried again. He sat relatively still while I thoroughly checked his ears, teeth, etc. Very little squirming. wth?


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I practice calm restraints, both with sit and down, on all of my dogs from day one. It's a Brenda Aloff technique. I recommend buying her puppy book and reading that section to learn how to do it. It came in handy when my aggressive adult Dutch Shepherd needed to have procedures done at the vet. It also allows my high drive, high energy GSD puppy to be held on his side, calmly, until I let him up.

ETA: I also practiced this behavior other places besides my house - at the park, at a friends', in training classes when he was being a mouthy snot LOL


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Viking is an 11 week old puppy! Don't try to expect so much from him. I don't think you need to rock his world at this point. You saw what made him nervous. Work on those things taking your time and using patience. 

I can't see how a vet would question your training ability with an 11 week old puppy. Tsk. Tsk. 

Every time you take Viking someplace and he has a reaction that doesn't make you happy, use that as a learning tool. Work on it. I don't think stepping up your use of force (at this age) is going to help, but may just teach him to panic. 

"Wait" & "Enough" are great tools as well. But remember Viking is a baby, cut him some slack.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

I agree, puppy "phase" and don't start beating yourself up. Keep working like you have been. He may have been picking up on energy from you and the vet.
I'm sure he'll be fine. Puppies go through fear and butthead phases.
You know how good Viking is.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Ladyfreckles - I forgot to add that you are doing a great job with this pup! There is no need for this little adventure to rock your world either. Cut yourself some slack too!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

You know I am not an "expert" on dogs, or puppies.  

But here's my .02, which is probably all it's worth, LOL

I think much has to do with how the breeder has handled/not handled them. I know mine has 3 kids ages 7-13 and they got handled A LOT. Also, I did make sure to constantly handle Rocket and hold him on his back and stroke between his leg and stomach, just for a minute or two and settle him. It's harder now, of course, that he's almost 75 lbs, but I still do it.  I also started the examination stuff the day I got him, and had all the people that came over do it and the firefighters at DH's station do it too....not now, but for the first few weeks I did. 

Also, make sure you're projecting calmness, confidence, and a happy, easy-going attitude at the vet's. If you feel like you don't like the attendants, you might search until you find a vet where you like everyone. My techs LOVE Rocket, and that helps. Of course, I've been going there for 20 years, and between the dogs and the cats, I've been frequently, ha ha. 

And---what Lilie said.


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## fishernut (Dec 15, 2011)

What a strange coincidence....Shovel and I just got home from the vet after having a very similar experience. This is Shovel's third time there, and in anticipation, I took him for a nice long off-leash walk/run on the beach (well, frozen beach ) today. My main problem with him at previous vet visits was he always pulled like mad in the waiting room trying to get to the other dogs, and would not settle down.
Today he was a relative angel in the waiting room! There was a large husky in there whining and straining to get to Shovel, but I just had Shovel look at me, and put him in a down (which would only last for a few minutes at a time, but was still pretty impressive to me and several others in the waiting room!). I even got a compliment on how well he listened, lol!

The problem was when we the vet came in the examination room, and wanted him up on the table. My vet office has 3 vets working there, so this was the first time we've seen this one (the last one gave Shovel his exam and shots while on the floor, and Shovel was great!).
I lifted him to the table, and he started squirming like mad--the vet AND her assistant had to hold him down. I could see how much Shovel did not like the situation and tried to clam him down by talking softly to him and petting him. When the vet tried to examine his ears and mouth he nipped her! She grabbed his muzzle and said NO BITING! I was mortified, but also a bit stressed at the way they were restraining him on the table (he was struggling quite a bit). I requested that she put him down on the floor to finish his exam, and give him his shots. She reluctantly complied...He did a lot better once he was back down on the floor, but I could tell he was still uncomfortable.
I'm thinking she thinks I have a problem dog now--thing is, he's never acted this way before at the vets!

Shovel is 16 weeks old now, and 45 lbs.
Should I be concerned? Could I have made the situation better by trying to hold him myself, instead of letting the tech and vet do most of the restraining? I have been gently feeling his paws, ears, looking at his teeth, clipping his nails, etc since he was 8 weeks old, and he's never had a problem with it.

When we went back out into the waiting room afterwards he was well behaved.

ladyfreckles, sorry I don't have any advice for you, and I don't mean to hijack. I'm just glad I saw your thread! The advice given so far has been great, and I look forward to any other imput!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Something my vet does that I love. They have frozen peanut butter in a syringe cap and Kastle licks that through the whole exam sometimes. Simple solution


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ladyfreckles said:


> What annoyed me more is there was a substitute vet in and he complained that my dog wasn't "trained" well enough and he was being "aggressive".


I would have looked him right in the eye, with a big smile on my face, and said "stick a shot in my ass and see how aggressive I get" 

Of COURSE he isn't trained! "Good deduction there, Sherlock" Just how much training does he think an 11 week old puppy should have? 



ladyfreckles said:


> He acted afraid of my 11 week old puppy.


He's a baby. I would be very not impressed with a vet that is scared of an 11 week old puppy. IN fact, I would request a different vet unless there was an emergency. 

If this was not your regular vet, I would write an email to the regular vet.



ladyfreckles said:


> I'm irritated with how Viking misbehaved,


Don't be irritated. Vet offices reek of fear, illness and strange ppl are poking sharp objects into him. Instead, take a weekly trip to get him weighed. Once he has his shots, walk him thru to the receptionists to have them give him a treat. If the doctors are out, let him greet them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I think much has to do with how the breeder has handled/not handled them.


I agree, Karlo's breeder did an excellent job of handling pups. But he still fights up a storm when I touch his feet. He is ticklish or something, tucks paws and growls, leaves if I try to even just massage/touch below the wrist.


> The problem was when we the vet came in the examination room, and wanted him up on the table. My vet office has 3 vets working there, so this was the first time we've seen this one (the last one gave Shovel his exam and shots while on the floor, and Shovel was great!).
> I lifted him to the table, and he started squirming like mad--the vet AND her assistant had to hold him down. I could see how much Shovel did not like the situation and tried to clam him down by talking softly to him and petting him.


sometimes the table is calming for the dog(they don't want people bending over them) other times it is an insecure feeling. Before you go in for a procedure again, go there for a weight check/treat and a pet from a tech...leave. Do it again. Let your pup think the vet is a great place to go! Bring treats or like Falon posted, a peanutbutter popsicle for the next jabs/procedure.



> When they gave him a vaccine via the nose he bobbed his head a lot and when they gave him one via the shoulder... you would think they were murdering him.


I hate this!!!! Why do vets give more than the required vax? And why don't they space them out some? Obviously you gave your pup a bordatella vax? Hopefully his immune system can handle the invasion. When it is time to give rabies, please only give that one alone...and three weeks from any other ones. Over vaccinating is over. Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Take him by the vet clinic on a weekly basis and make sure he gets treats there. 
I doubt your vet was "afraid" of an 11 week old puppy. 
But it's a good idea to get your puppy used to being handled. 

And vaccines shouldn't make any puppy react that way - they barely hurt as it's sub-cu and not IM vaccinations. I could see if it was the puppy we have here (who shrieked) she is not quite even 2lb. but a different breed. Chihuahuas seem to hate vaccines more than most.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Ladyfreckles - I forgot to add that you are doing a great job with this pup! There is no need for this little adventure to rock your world either. Cut yourself some slack too!





Lilie said:


> Viking is an 11 week old puppy! Don't try to expect so much from him. I don't think you need to rock his world at this point. You saw what made him nervous. Work on those things taking your time and using patience.
> 
> I can't see how a vet would question your training ability with an 11 week old puppy. Tsk. Tsk.
> 
> ...


I just started "enough" today. When I see my regular vet I'm going to tell her about what happened. She has experience with German Shepherds and was always very gentle with Viking and patient with him. Yeah it made out appointments take longer but he was always very happy about it. If it turns out that guy is just another vet who would be stepping in often then I'm going to switch vets. I don't like him.

I'll definitely work ome more with him. Thanks.  



RocketDog said:


> You know I am not an "expert" on dogs, or puppies.
> 
> But here's my .02, which is probably all it's worth, LOL
> 
> ...


That's what I do, but I don't think I was doing it enough. I usually let him go once he's calm for ten seconds, but I think I might up that. 




onyx'girl said:


> I
> I hate this!!!! Why do vets give more than the required vax? And why don't they space them out some? Obviously you gave your pup a bordatella vax? Hopefully his immune system can handle the invasion. When it is time to give rabies, please only give that one alone...and three weeks from any other ones. Over vaccinating is over. Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol


They gave two because the training place I want to go to requires a certain amount of vaccines. Thankfully, our vet only does them every 3 weeks and I don't think rabies is done until 6 months. It is required around here by most, if not all training facilities to have the bt vax. 




FG167 said:


> Something my vet does that I love. They have frozen peanut butter in a syringe cap and Kastle licks that through the whole exam sometimes. Simple solution


That sounds yummy, I'd like some of it :laugh:



Jax08 said:


> I would have looked him right in the eye, with a big smile on my face, and said "stick a shot in my ass and see how aggressive I get"
> 
> Of COURSE he isn't trained! "Good deduction there, Sherlock" Just how much training does he think an 11 week old puppy should have?
> 
> ...


I already requested that we don't have him again for the next visit and I stated my reasons. If they don't honor that request then I'm changing vet. Thankfully the next visit isn't for a month and then after that we're done until rabies at 6 months.

He seemed more scared that "oh when he gets bigger yada yada". When he gets bigger what? He'll attack you? No he won't, he just doesn't like being held. He didn't nip once.

I'm just frustrated because I want to be a good example. This is my first dog and I don't want to mess it up and be one of those crummy ignorant owners whose dogs always misbehave. I'm very nervous about messing up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

German Shepherds are huge babies. Jax screamed when she had her vax, like someone was killing her. The vet said "yep, she's a shepherd" LOL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

you won't mess up.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> German Shepherds are huge babies. Jax screamed when she had her vax, like someone was killing her. The vet said "yep, she's a shepherd" LOL


That's what my normal vet says! lol. She spends a good 5-10 minutes petting him and talking to us before she gets started. This guy just went right into it, which is what I think set Viking off (in retrospect). Viking's usually noisy but he fell asleep last time he was at the vet.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW I was going to also mention you should be holding him on occasion when he cannot get away.
Struggling constantly when being restrained or held is not good.

Did you read "Mind Games" that I posted elsewhere? You can do a very modified puppy version starting now, including 2-3 minute "long downs" where you basically have the puppy on a leash and he cannot get away.
We've been doing this with Ruger, despite him being quite mellow, we found out he didn't like being restrained either but he's gotten used to it.

It's important to let the puppy feel frustration and let him work it out on his own. If you don't let him experience frustration now and develop a tolerance, he will not learn it as he goes. 
We had an adult dog who was almost 100lb. and had no frustration tolerance and it was a nightmare.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ladyfreckles said:


> That's what my normal vet says! lol. She spends a good 5-10 minutes petting him and talking to us before she gets started. This guy just went right into it, which is what I think set Viking off (in retrospect). Viking's usually noisy but he fell asleep last time he was at the vet.


In my experience, the vets that come right at the dogs are the ones that the dogs react too. The ones that come in, ignore the dogs, talk to you for a few minutes and then exam the dogs, we don't have a problem with.

I had one march right in with the vet tech. The tech grabbed the leash out of my hand and DRUG my dog with a prong collar on across the room. I came unglued. Then the vet said "oh we need to put a muzzle on her because she growled". Gee...can you take a guess at why she growled at you?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

ladyfreckles said:


> He seemed more scared that "oh when he gets bigger yada yada". When he gets bigger what? He'll attack you? No he won't, he just doesn't like being held. He didn't nip once.


I think I see what the vet was getting at--if you don't get a handle on this pup when he's little, he's going to be a holy terror when he gets bigger. Which of course most of us on this forum know, but a lot of the general dog-owning public doesn't realize. An 11 week old puppy has a lot to learn, and fortunately you have the time and the desire to work with him and teach him appropriate behaviors. As long as you keep doing that, you'll be fine.

You have to understand that GSDs do not have a good reputation with vets. Unfortunately, most of the GSDs they see are poorly-bred, BYB dogs which do not display proper temperament. My vets are always astounded that my two GSDs are not complete idiots, but if everyone would get well-bred dogs and take the time to train them, our GSD wouldn't have a bad reputation.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This is very true! 
Our vets have always commented on how good our Yaeger was. I was amazed people would or could own a dog that would bite someone unprovoked off it's own property!!
Ruger's the same way. He knows no strangers and I'm happy with him that way!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Personally, the pup is 11 weeks old. I would relax. The best thing you can do for your puppy is to relax, and not read something into every shake and every wriggle. Take the puppy to puppy kindergarten, and work with your pup in a class of other owners working with their puppy. Try not to do all kinds of extra training. Just relax. If you are calm, your dog will be as calm as your dog can be. If you are nervous, or angry, or worried about what the dog might do, or why the dog is doing this, the dog is going to spazz too.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks guys!

And yeah, I could see where he was getting at, but the tone with it was more fearful than "be sure to train him now when he's little". I had to tell him about four or five times that I did plan to train him because he just kept repeating himself.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

If you like the female vet, use her. Make appointments with HER, if you are going to drop in for shots or something, call and ask if she is working that day before you go. If it's her day off, go another day.

My vet has 2 others that work in his practice.(I don't like either one of them.) He is the owner of the clinic and has 20 years more experience and he knows ME. I do what I posted above.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Riley is not vet tolerant. He used to be amazing at the vet until we took him in for treatment to find out why he was ripping himself up and they dragged him in the back away from us to shave him down. Found out they were unusually rough with him and none too nice with him in general. He is horrible at the vet now despite efforts to show him not all are bad and he won't be taken in the back again without us. Shasta is very good until they pull out the shots. Then she just screams like youre trying to kill her. Now Zena... She was a holy terror. Snarling and spitting and just a very scary dog going in. she doesn't act that way with the vet back home. 

I would have been pretty ticked with the vet and said so. It's behavior like that which can cause trouble with the dog at the very in the future.


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