# Low growl



## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Today we visited some friends with 2 toddlers , I kept Z on a short leash and gave the kids some treats to feed in an open palm. After a few minutes of kids being kids i noticed a low growl during one of the kids attempt to feed. Then my Z lunged for either his food or the kids hand. I QUICKLY SNATCHED his collar and said no. But I noticed Z would not stop staring at the kid. First time I was worried in the 5 months we've had him. He's almost 7 months now and I would rather not have to find out later he gets aggressive when he's overwhelmed.

So my question to great and powerful Oz that is this forum, what should I do about this?

My trainer gave me some suggestions but which I think will work fine, but I'd still want more reinforcement to nip this immediately


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

My boy does not like adults or kids that....
1.Make eye contact
2.Reach a hand toward his face,even with a treat

He has learned to sit or lay quietly next to me and feel safe.I taught him an alternate behavior by people/kid watching from a distance where he just started to feel tense.We would sit and watch,I would rub his chest to soothe him.When I could tell he was feeling relaxed we left.A little closer each time,once or twice a week.His default behavior when we are in a crowd or visiting friends is to slip behind me if someone approaches or stares and currently we are transitioning to "look at me",treat,and hold your position.

He used to growl also but no more(thanks Bailiff!)Ok to correct the growl if the person he growled at remains in the vicinity.The dog understands the growl is not effective to drive the scary thing away,he is safe by you.

As of now he will actually solicit pets from people and kids but is still not comfortable with the" hand in his face thing".Being around toddlers??Not yet!Hope this helps you somewhatBasically it's showing him an alternate calming behavior when he's feeling anxious.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> Today we visited some friends with 2 toddlers , I kept Z on a short leash and gave the kids some treats to feed in an open palm. After a few minutes of kids being kids i noticed a low growl during one of the kids attempt to feed. Then my Z lunged for either his food or the kids hand. I QUICKLY SNATCHED his collar and said no. But I noticed Z would not stop staring at the kid. First time I was worried in the 5 months we've had him. He's almost 7 months now and I would rather not have to find out later he gets aggressive when he's overwhelmed.
> 
> So my question to great and powerful Oz that is this forum, what should I do about this?
> 
> My trainer gave me some suggestions but which I think will work fine, but I'd still want more reinforcement to nip this immediately


In an ideal world, the dog doesn't make a single decision in its life without first looking to you for guidance. In reality, while we can all strive for such relationships with our dogs, that's rarely the case. Your good reactions may have just paid off more than you can imagine. I would be very watchful of Z with everyone around now. 

Also, I wouldn't suggest letting kids feed your dog. I hand-feed Liza every meal, and I know her teeth can occasionally painfully snap on my fingers - I wouldn't want to risk that happening to a child. 

I'm also interested in reading about proper ways of handling such behaviour long-term (beyond the immediate correction).


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Some puppies / dogs just flat out don't do well with kids. Which can be unfortunate if you have them, because then it's all about management. 

I don't have kids, I'm not around kids (with the exception of my 8 year old nephew about once a month or so). Consequently, I've never given my dog that much exposure to kids. However, when we walk near a park or near kids playing, she's not comfortable at all with the squealing, yelling and general commotion. 

Personally, I would never let a small child feed a puppy any food at all (treat or food) until I knew for sure how the dog would react. And if I didn't know (like I still don't) I'd just not let the dog be fed by small children. 

Since I've never corrected this behaviour, or had any reason to, I would suggest you PM bailiff on here - if he doesn't chime in soon, and ask for assistance. 

Because if you need / want your pup to be comfortable around children, you definitely need a solid game plan. 

Good luck!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I has a rescue male Rottie. We got him when he was 1 1/2. He was great in most every way. But he was not okay with certain situations involving my young boys. They could not approach him when he was sleeping, when he was in his crate, couldn't touch his food bowl or toys without him getting the low deep warning growl. He was happy go lucky the rest of the time, enjoyed playing with them, enjoyed chasing and retrieving a ball from them, but he had to bring the toy to him. If it was laying on the ground and they walked up to grab it (ball, chew toy, bone, didn't matter) he would issue his warning growl. 

My children were trained as much, if not more so, than the Rottie. They were trained how to handle dogs, how to avoid them, how to heed warning signs, and to never, ever, ever try to handle them themselves. The boys were never left alone with him, ever. If I couldn't be in the same room with them, he was either tethered to me, or in his crate. If he was relaxing in the living room with all of us, he was on a slightly longer lead. This went on for 2yrs (probably longer than was necessary, but I'm overly precautious with my children) . If he did his warning growl, he was given a swift and firm correction. It took maybe 3-4 corrections a few times a month for 2-3 months before it stopped. I don't know if he just settled in finally and got some training and comfort under his belt, or if he stopped seeing my children as a threat, but I didn't let my guard around him and the children. He was only granted free reign of the house if my children weren't home, and he was always crated if any other children were in my home. 

He lived with us for many many years until old age and illness took him from us. He never bit, never showed aggression, never snapped or snarled, just that low deep warning growl. 

I would suggest you keep him away from children until a trainer can get him assessed and a game plan down for him, and prepare yourself that you may just have a dog that will never be okay with kids, or you could have a dog that just isn't comfortable around certain situations with children. No matter what the issue may be, please please please make sure he is always leashed or crated around children! Some dogs may learn to stop the growl, or warning, because they are corrected for it, and go straight for a bite. They learn to react immediately instead of showing the signs he may bite. It's better to be safe than sorry, IMHO.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Toddlers smell weird. And make weird noises. They can also trigger prey drive with their weird erratic movements. When younger, running kids would make my dog too excited so I make sure to keep him away and under my control. I don't let children give treats, only the people at the register at Petco or trainers at my club. There is always a chance a child would try to give a treat, drop it and then try to pick it back up. That could go very wrong. I would (and do) put my dog up when people come over. Eventually, I will let him out with family (two small children), but otherwise I wouldn't. He's just too big. He also has resource guarding propensities that I wouldn't chance with non immediate family. (He doesn't have them towards me, but will from males and my cat).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> Today we visited some friends with 2 toddlers , I kept Z on a short leash


 Well you get full credit for doing that!



ZiggytheSheprador said:


> and gave the kids some treats to feed in an open palm.


 A dog is "not" a horse! I'm not a fan of using "treats" to trick dogs into allowing folks into there space...I dare say...now you know why!

Scroll down here, don't use treats as bribes:

Boxer Dog Training

Your dog has served you notice, that he is not one of those dogs that you can get away with "ham fisted" training and everthing will be just fine, thank you! 

If you want to go down the "Click, Treat and Praise" "Rabbit Hole" with "this dog???" Good luck with that! I'd bet a lot of "trainers" will make a small fortune "not" being of much use to you???

I have no idea what your "trainer" advised?? But if they said anything about using "treats" for this...I'd lose them!

I would and do "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" (the walk part not the rest) and train "The Place Command!" With every dog,I work with (rescue.) I don't know those dogs, I don't take chances with them or put people in harms way. 

I keep people and dogs out of their dog face and show them how I expect them to behave! The Place Command makes your dog safe! You tell him "Place" and he settles down! And I leave them alone! When they are busy doing "nothing" they get a treat from me!

None of that involves using "treats" to try and persuade your dog that "it's OK??" If that is to much to handle?? Then you have the wrong dog?? Consider working with a rescue and foster in place and work to find a more suitable home for him before he hurts someone. If you are keeping him...start to do some things differently. 

If you want to find a "Balanced Trainer" local to you, you can find one through SolidK9Training:

Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

Incidently Jeff says "everything people need to know to train there dog for free, is available on my site!" Look under the heading free advise!

Everything I would recommend is all pretty much here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7165106-post3.html

If you have questions on any of that...just ask! 

I don't do kids per se, but "this" is not a dog I would trust around, anyone outside of his "pack!" Not much caring for anyone outside of their pack, is just how some of them roll..a GSD, is not a Lab!

Just saying! Welcome aboard.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

yuriy said:


> In an ideal world, the dog doesn't make a single decision in its life without first looking to you for guidance. In reality, while we can all strive for such relationships with our dogs, that's rarely the case. Your good reactions may have just paid off more than you can imagine. I would be very watchful of Z with everyone around now.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't suggest letting kids feed your dog. I hand-feed Liza every meal, and I know her teeth can occasionally painfully snap on my fingers - I wouldn't want to risk that happening to a child.
> 
> I'm also interested in reading about proper ways of handling such behaviour long-term (beyond the immediate correction).


This is not meant to be about Ziggy's situation at all. I just wanted to mention to you that I have had good luck with Newlie and the "no teeth" command. Newlie is a soft shepherd so this may not work for your dog, but when I first got him, he would sometimes nip my fingers/hand in his excitement to grab a treat. It wasn't anything aggressive, but it still hurt, and I started teaching him "no teeth." I would make him sit, show him a treat and say "no teeth." If he nipped my hand in excitement, I would cry out like he had hurt me + no praise or treat. If he took it gently, praise and treat. Over time, I kept reducing the size of the treat until it got to the point where I could literally take a dot of food in my hands and he would take it without his teeth touching me. He has gotten so reliable that I will put a doggie treat (like a cookie, nothing gross) in my mouth and let him take it from between my lips. And yeah, it's very few dogs that I would let get that close to my face with their fangs.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Kyleigh said:


> Some puppies / dogs just flat out don't do well with kids. Which can be unfortunate if you have them, because then it's all about management.
> 
> I don't have kids, I'm not around kids (with the exception of my 8 year old nephew about once a month or so). Consequently, I've never given my dog that much exposure to kids. However, when we walk near a park or near kids playing, she's not comfortable at all with the squealing, yelling and general commotion.
> 
> ...


is baliliff a trainer of sorts?


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> My boy does not like adults or kids that....
> His default behavior when we are in a crowd or visiting friends is to slip behind me if someone approaches or stares and currently we are transitioning to "look at me",treat,and hold your position.
> 
> He used to growl also but no more(thanks Bailiff!)Ok to correct the growl if the person he growled at remains in the vicinity.The dog understands the growl is not effective to drive the scary thing away,he is safe by you.
> ...


thanks for this response. how did you correct the growl? did you have to expose him to things that made him growl?


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I don't know if Bailiff is a trainer, but I've read a number of his posts, and people have commented on how well his information / advice worked ...


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## Waldi (Jun 14, 2013)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> Today we visited some friends with 2 toddlers , I kept Z on a short leash and gave the kids some treats to feed in an open palm. After a few minutes of kids being kids i noticed a low growl during one of the kids attempt to feed. Then my Z lunged for either his food or the kids hand. I QUICKLY SNATCHED his collar and said no. But I noticed Z would not stop staring at the kid. First time I was worried in the 5 months we've had him. He's almost 7 months now and I would rather not have to find out later he gets aggressive when he's overwhelmed.
> 
> So my question to great and powerful Oz that is this forum, what should I do about this?
> 
> My trainer gave me some suggestions but which I think will work fine, but I'd still want more reinforcement to nip this immediately



My GS is now 2.5 years old and up till about two years old I never trusted her with young kids even though she was pretty good, in fact she would stoke them for play. We never had incident but I had some personal experience as a child being bitten by dog while playing with super friendly dog. I always educated children to as to pet my dog and explained on how to do it (no hands on top of the head or in front. This summer my dog was playing with tons of different kids and she had fabulous time and interacted perfectly with them, she was actually looking forward to playing. For the first time with her, I was sitting relaxed in the distance not worrying about interaction with kids, but truthfully, this is animal and you should always be around while they play with kids or strangers as in case of problem you can quickly step in. I love my dogs and I do not want to risk of accidental bite, nor with my GS or golden (she is the sweetest but still dog). My advice, be vigilant and never leave kids and your dog unattended.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Great advice, but even if you are there ... a dog's mouth is much faster than the human's reaction ... a bite can happen faster than a blink of an eye. 

You've been given a warning by your dog - he was NOT comfortable. Take heed and manage well.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> is baliliff a trainer of sorts?


That's cute! The answer is yes!


And I'll add that a lot of the things he would advise or do...I've already posted here but sometimes people need an "eyes on approach!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kyleigh said:


> Great advice, but even if you are there ... a dog's mouth is much faster than the human's reaction ... a bite can happen faster than a blink of an eye.
> 
> You've been given a warning by your dog - he was NOT comfortable. Take heed and manage well.


Yep I tried the "I dare you approach" with my GSD when he was threating "Gunther" one time!!! I was standing right there and "bet him" he would not try it! I lost that bet, I'm fast...but he was faster!

That was fight number three I think it was?? I've gotten way wiser since then!


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Kyleigh said:


> You've been given a warning by your dog - he was NOT comfortable. Take heed and manage well.


...hence this inquiry. this was the first time he's displayed any aggression. i'm looking back and recognizing some signs that show subtle possessive behavior that i dismissed because of his age. now i'm thinking i need to find more/different training tactics to break his tendency to react. 

what do you guys think about bringing him around a kids playground to observe their behavior?


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I wouldn't take him to a kids playground. But that's me. It would be like taking a dog aggressive dog to a dog park. You would be asking for trouble. 

Children would want to run up and pet, touch, play with your dog. While that may seem like no big deal, it would be if one got to close and your dog snapped. It's easy for a child to run up behind unnoticed while you are talking to someone in front of you asking questions or whatnot.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Already sent a pm to OP. This is something that has to be evaluated by a professional in person. I as a rule do not allow young child dog interactions unless the dog is absolutely bomb proof and even then under strict supervision. 

Don't allow contact between this dog and toddlers or young kids. Get it evaluated but I'm pretty sure any professional trainer worth going to will not chance it and probably give you the same advice. Try Lisa Maze see what she has to say.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Already sent a pm to OP. This is something that has to be evaluated by a professional in person. I as a rule do not allow young child dog interactions unless the dog is absolutely bomb proof and even then under strict supervision.
> 
> Don't allow contact between this dog and toddlers or young kids. Get it evaluated but I'm pretty sure any professional trainer worth going to will not chance it and probably give you the same advice. Try Lisa Maze see what she has to say.


ok, we'll have him evaluated. thanks.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Already sent a pm to OP. This is something that has to be evaluated by a professional in person. I as a rule do not allow young child dog interactions unless the dog is absolutely bomb proof and even then under strict supervision.
> 
> Don't allow contact between this dog and toddlers or young kids. Get it evaluated but I'm pretty sure any professional trainer worth going to will not chance it and probably give you the same advice. Try Lisa Maze see what she has to say.


what would the evaluation tell me that i can't do regardless of whether he needs specialized training? i'd like to get ahead of this so whether or not Ziggy is comfortable around small children is moot. my primary objective would be to put him in a position to make good decisions around small kids. 

he might not yet know kids are harmless but should be trainable to not react?? right??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That needs to happen with a professional first. It's important to send a clear message the first few times in order to create understanding and it just isn't something you can describe to a person or watch a dvd and get it right.

An evauluation is important to see what your training goals should be, what is realistically attainable and what you should potentially avoid. I remember months ago after seeing a few pictures of him seeing telltale signs of worried eyes and signs the dogs temperament might be questionable and i got a strong enough feeling to ask you about it. Even though it was just a few pictures.

The dog might have limits to what situations you can safetly put him in. Who knows?
It has to be evaluated by a real professional.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Baillif said:


> That needs to happen with a professional first. It's important to send a clear message the first few times in order to create understanding and it just isn't something you can describe to a person or watch a dvd and get it right.
> 
> An evauluation is important to see what your training goals should be, what is realistically attainable and what you should potentially avoid. I remember months ago after seeing a few pictures of him seeing telltale signs of worried eyes and signs the dogs temperament might be questionable and i got a strong enough feeling to ask you about it. Even though it was just a few pictures.
> 
> ...


dam good call on that, you jinx. just kidding sir.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> my primary objective would be to put him in a position to make good decisions around small kids.


WOW????

That sounds like a shout out for the KMODT to me??? I'm not an expert on it by any means...but you just nailed how it works!


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> WOW????
> 
> That sounds like a shout out for the KMODT to me??? I'm not an expert on it by any means...but you just nailed how it works!


ive heard about kohler in the past, but didn't bother to review it. i'll take a second look today. as you guys can see this has me troubled.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> ...hence this inquiry. this was the first time he's displayed any aggression. i'm looking back and recognizing some signs that show subtle possessive behavior that i dismissed because of his age. now i'm thinking i need to find more/different training tactics to break his tendency to react.


 Well good for you for spotting problems early!! Some of us don't see the "freight train" of trouble coming our way, until it "slams into us!" 



ZiggytheSheprador said:


> what do you guys think about bringing him around a kids playground to observe their behavior?


Well assuming "Bailiff" is watching this thread?? And since you asked a "specific" question and acknowledging that I don't do kids!!

I do have "experience" with "bubble dogs" and that is what you have! IE a dog that can't be trusted in public to "make good choices" so...he needs help!

So "assuming" the dog is well behaved on leash?? And assuming your ready to deal?? And with the understanding that I don't have kids! And Rocky is "never" allowed to interact with them! He "ignores" them and on the rare occasions that I allow a child to "touch him??" My hand is there shield! Works for me!

So with all those "clauses" in place ...proceeding on! I "would" do the play ground thing and be prepared to take action if necessary! I would have a muzzle on the dog, and use it for awhile, it helps to relax them and makes them twice about acting a "fool!"

I would also do this at the given site:
Energy - it's all about confid-tude

All you do is "Sit!" But...what if a chid comes running up to pet doggy??? Well then you have a sitution on your hands!!! The dog may lunge and try to strike???

I tend to think a "Prong Collar" would be the wrong tool of choice! It can be used to take "Drive" out of a Dog but it can aslo be used to put "Drive" into a dog??? 

Well...here is where I go away from the conventional wisdom and would recommend my tool of choice! A Slip lead leash! It is an extremely versatile tool when "properly" used!

I did not realize how versatile myself until I listened to this!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR_tfAVvFdA

It's in there maybe halfway through??

I would watch Sean O’Shea do some, "squirrelly" crap with two leashes in his hand??? What's up with that?? Well if you watch the video...he explains! 

It can also service as a "Dominate Dog Collar" if a child comes running and screaming at the dog and he flips out?? You use the Slip Leash as a DDC and simply lift the Dog up onto his front feet are just off the ground! If he is already up and lunging (you were to slow) but you would then hold your arm straight out and just go higher! No "yanking and cranking" just a slow deliberate upward pressure! The dog should "get the message" and when he relaxes you do the same! Pretty sure it will be "message received!"

I have no idea if that "message" will stick with "pack" members??? As I say I'm "not" a "pro!!"

That is how "I" send a message, "Homie style" because...










But...as I say I am "not" a "Pro" and "Rocky" will tell you sometimes "Daddy" makes "poor choices!"

I was ready to tangle with a massive sigh...(Pitt mix) that came running and snarling at us from his yard on a walk!! Rocky was (off leash) and behind me! I saw the dog coming fast and turned to Rocky and said stay!! He failed to do so??? Instead, he stepped forward next to me and ... smiled in the dogs face! Instantly my attention turned from the charging dog to Rocky???

I next looked at the former charging dog, who now sat and wagged his tail and smiled back??? That was the second time Rocky saved me from charging dogs while I was protecting him!!

I was ready to make a bad situation worst and yet again my dog stepped up!
So yeah my dogs at times make better decisions than I do...so bear that in mind! Still I did train them so that has to count for something???

Most likely the best advice is still, * "seek a "professional" for help with this!"
*
And maybe, I should add* "Do as I say, not as I do! As ...I don't have kids!!"
*


Still you asked a "specific question" so I felt obligated to answer! That said...do as you stated...*"make good decsions!"*


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> That needs to happen with a professional first. It's important to send a clear message the first few times in order to create understanding and it just isn't something you can describe to a person or watch a dvd and get it right.


 Uh oh!! Read twice type once! 

Do we need a mod for post 25 ??? I do tend to go on!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> ive heard about kohler in the past, but didn't bother to review it. i'll take a second look today. as you guys can see this has me troubled.


Oh so you got KMODT also??? I'm impressed!!

It is a DIY manual but unless you can find a school, you'll be hard pressed to implement it quickly??

Good advice is to do what you need to keep everyone safe starting now! Keep a drag leash on the dog! Short leash with the handle cut off! 

Crate train the dog and work on "The Place Command!"

The Magic Of Duration Work | The Good Dog Life Blog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

Make the dog sit and wait for uh "everything!!" No bed, no furniture if that's what you are doing?? Those things need to be earned! In the "Crate" or in "Place" and "No" tricking anyone into his space with the use of treats!

That's always "Safe Advise!"


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> what do you guys think about bringing him around a kids playground to observe their behavior?


Yeah, thats a terrible idea lol.

Now if you brought your dog and you observed the dogs reaction, and corrected him anytime you see fixation or prey drive being triggered then the dog would learn something.

Really you want to desensitize the dog, so you try to preform commands, like heel, sit, lie down at a distance from the playground and then once the dog does it at a safe away distance you bring it closer(onleash) and seeing where is the point where the dog begins to be distracted. Then you simply try to bridge the gap over time.

Whenever you rush these things they go bad. Don't get unrealistic about it. It can take over 6 months to a year to actually make a dog safe around children. So really no need to rush. But they should always be supervised anyways.

Children generally need to be explained how to behave around a dog. If you are just seeing how they'll get along and the child stares into the dogs eyes and tries to rub it then you can face problems.

I told 2 chidren how to behave around my dogs about 3 years ago and I met them recently with their mother and they both totally grasped how to be safe around a dog. It is like a life lesson on how not to get bit. If the children or parents don't listen then don't let your dogs around them as it is not worth it.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> my primary objective would be to put him in a position to make good decisions around small kids.


You don't want your dog making them decisions.

Say a child runs up to your dog. The dog is startled, it barks, the child gets scared, starts screaming and runs away. You dog should not be deciding if that is prey or not or a predator. Thats where the danger lies. 

I'd prefer the dog to see a child and immediately look to me for advice as if it makes a wrong 'choice' I'll break it's balls. I'm like the corrector. Obviously temperament is an issue. Some dogs are more tolerant then others but all need firm handling and a realization of who is in control. 

Once you step up, then you are suddenly reasonable for all your dogs actions and need to be clear and fair with the dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Best posts Ive ever seen from madlab but make sure you have a pro showing you how to do this if you go that route


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

thanks for the all the tips here, we've been able to implement a lot of the advice suggested. we've been working off leash since easter, he still has a drag leash on his collar but i've been able to recall him when he reacts to a passerby. the dogtra has been getting extra work though.


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