# Any unconventional method of teaching "down"?



## Hugo-licious (Jun 16, 2009)

I was wondering if any of you have had problems teaching a pup to "down". I've tried the "hold treat at nose in sit position and lower to floor" method several times now but as Hugo goes for the treat he raises his behind off the ground so he's lost the down position I'm asking for. 
I read somewhere else on one of the posts that treating him when he does an inadvertent down and saying "good down" will tell him to associate the word with that action so he will do it when he hears the word by itself. I've tried that some last week and over the long weekend but not having much luck. 
Any other suggestions on how I can teach him this?


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

What I did with Gia was I put a piece of hotdog (she loves hotdogs and will do anything for a tiny little piece of one







) and hold it in my fist. Then I give the command and put my fist on the ground in front of her and wait. She tried pawing at my fist, nudging at it..you name it she tried it. Sooner or later though, she plopped herself into a down, as soon as this happened I clicked and opened my hand telling her good "down".


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Have you tried using the 'bridge' type of method? You kneel on one leg and put your other leg out in front of you with your foot planted on the ground so that there is a space under your leg where the dog will fit. Then you use a treat to lure the dog to go underneath your leg, and he will have to lay down and scoot forward to fit. As soon as his back end is on the ground you praise/reward. I've heard of using this method for dogs when the regular luring doesn't work.
Another thing that sometimes helps if you are trying to lure the dog with a treat and he isn't laying down is to move the treat in towards his chest. When you put the treat down to get him to move his nose down instead of pulling the treat in towards you, move your hand with the treat down and towards the dog's chest instead. That sometimes works. 

If you used clicker training you can do capturing or shaping to train down. Capturing involves clicking/rewarding when the dog lays down on their own. If you keep doing this they will start laying down more and more and once you can predict that they will lay down at a certain time you can start adding on the cue word "down" when they do it.

Shaping involves rewarding successive approximations. For example with 'down' you might click/reward the dog for lowering her head, then wait until the head is a little lower, then reward for a leg bending, and so on until finally the dog is actually laying down. Again you don't add the cue word until the dog is laying down predictably.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Hugo-liciousI've tried the "hold treat at nose in sit position and lower to floor" method several times now but as Hugo goes for the treat he raises his behind off the ground so he's lost the down position I'm asking for.


What happens if you wait? Will he eventually drop his butt down again or does he stand back up? Sometimes you just have to be patient, even if that means waiting a little while. Holding and moving the treat in the proper position as Chicagocanine describes helps too, and then marking and releasing the treat to him the second butt and elbows touch down - don't let him get it before then. 

I've had great luck with capturing too. It can take some time before you add the command and he's associating it with the action, but I guarantee that if you start marking (verbally - "yes!" or with a clicker) and tossing him a treat every time he lays down on the floor he will start doing it more and more frequently. I wouldn't worry about adding the command until he's consistently offering downs and expecting a reward, and then you would use it right before you can see he's about to lay down, mark and reward. When you do add the command you would again wait for him to comply, even if that's several seconds or a minute or two. Don't repeat the command, lure only if necessary. Eventually he WILL get it!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

For me "down" is the hardest to get the dog to keep doing. I always get "pop-up" dogs. I use a clicker and food lure, and they seem to eventually get the idea.


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## Hugo-licious (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks for the ideas! I actually tried the hold fist down to the floor idea as a last measure when my lower food to floor didnt work. He pawed and chewed on my fist and then just walked away. I was left holding a rather mushed up hot dog  I figured that was not the right way to do it so gave up. Now that you mention it, I'll give it a try again. 
I really like the bridge method too. Hugo is very pouncy though and last time I tried to get to his level like Victoria Stillwell indicated, he punctured two holes in my fave house-shirt (uggh! my Chewy chews everything). Maybe I'll wear him out with play and run first and give this a try after so he'll be a little docile.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

LOL...okay I am sorry to giggle, but the way you put it was pretty cute/funny. Hmmm..so I take it Hugo is not really really food motivated. There is no way in ach-ee-double hockey sticks that Gia would walk away knowing there is a hot dog in Mom's fist. Hope some one's suggestions get ya headed in the right direction.


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## Hugo-licious (Jun 16, 2009)

"What happens if you wait? Will he eventually drop his butt down again or does he stand back up?"

If I wait depending on the time I wait, he will pounce on it and try to chew the hand around it until he gets to the treat. I tried that when the lower to floor didnt work. I moved my closed fist between his feet hoping that'd make him sit and go for it. Instead he stood up, moved backwards and tried to pry my fist open again.


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## Hugo-licious (Jun 16, 2009)

Oh he's food motivated alright but he's so full of energy that he can't wait enough to do something before he wants to move on to something else. Some days I think he suffers from dog ADD







So far I've taught him to sit, gimme paw and roll on the floor and come mealtime he does them all w/o any cue. It's cute to watch (and I can't help but giggle) but I'd kill for a down on one of those days.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> I've had great luck with capturing too. It can take some time before you add the command and he's associating it with the action, but I guarantee that if you start marking (verbally - "yes!" or with a clicker) and tossing him a treat every time he lays down on the floor he will start doing it more and more frequently.


Using a clicker is the best way to do it. And don't treat from your hand, which raises his head, which may raise the body. The treat should be put on the floor between the paws.

With regard to luring, DON'T start at the nose any more. Get something that smells amazing (hot dogs, dehydrating lamb lung, smelly cheese, dehydrated tripe), when your dog is in a sit, put the treat between your pup's front paws, under his neck. If he tries to go for it by bending his neck (many will), push it a little further under her chest. 

Some dogs move forward into a down. But a lot BACK into a down (especially when they're puppies). It's more comfortable (just like some dogs will naturally spin or roll over one direction or anyone). So if you're trying to get your dog to come forward to a down and she's a backer-upper, it won't be natural to her. 

I was at the vet's office and a woman had a lovely hunting spaniel with her, about 6 months old. I asked if I could give the dog a treat. She said sure. I asked the dog for a sit. Dog sat. I asked the dog to lie down. The woman said "this dog won't lie down on command. I've tried everything." 

I tried the technique I just outlined. It took a few tries. The dog kept backing up on me, so I moved my hand further under her chest; she mouthed my hand, but I held tight to my treat. Suddenly, she plopped down. Then, in rapid succession, she kept plopping down. After about 8 times, I started to put the word "down" to it. She Could down!! She just needed the right approach for her body/brain.


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## Hugo-licious (Jun 16, 2009)

Awesome! Hugo is a backup and sit guy so I'll try to move it closer to his chest than I did. I had it more between his paws than inside so that may have been the reason he kept standing up. I'll try again when I get home and see how he gets that...thanks again!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

On the floor under his chest back between the paws (or even a little farther back). I'm not sure I was clear there.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have also used my other hand (the one not holding traet) to gently slide along the pups back over his rump to help him slip into the "down". 

My preference is the capture it tho. I think by waiting and capturing and then marking and rewarding it, the behavior becomes stronger in the dog's mind.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:My preference is the capture it tho. I think by waiting and capturing and then marking and rewarding it, the behavior becomes stronger in the dog's mind.


Me too. It gets the dog thinking.


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## Hugo-licious (Jun 16, 2009)

Alrightey!! I owe a big one to 3K9Mom. I tried your farther back on the floor between the paws technique and it worked like a charm!! It took a couple of tries and I need to modify it a bit - I put it close to his chest on the floor and as he starts to bend for it I pull it out slowly. That made him go down on his paws, then elbows (if dogs have any but you get the idea) and into a perfect down. I was so ecstatic I gave him the treat and crammed a few more into his mouth from sheer joy. He probably thought it was his best trick ever  It's still hit-n-miss today but that's because of his ADD. I've gotten 4 downs from him today in a 5 min session so I think we're on our way. Once again a big thanks to you! I'm glad I didn't need to use the bridge method - I have a feeling he'd chew on my thigh if he got that option (hehe)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Yahoo!!! Actually Chicagocanine suggested putting the treat closer in towards his chest rather than between his paws in an earlier post, which was the "holding and moving the treat in the proper position" that I was referring to as well.









I've never had a problem teaching down by luring in this fashion. Once he's reliably following the food lure into a down, get the food out of that hand, and use the lure motion as a hand signal. Mark, and then treat out of the other hand. You don't want him to rely on the presence of food in your hand in order to comply with the command, so only use a lure as long as absolutely necessary. You can later fade the hand signal so that it's more subtle, but don't be in a huge hurry to do so. I start with moving my whole hand down towards the floor in the teaching phase, but eventually my hand signal is a single finger pointing to the ground/floor. 

I'd recommend doing some capturing as well - the more he gets rewarded for laying down the more he's going to do it, which gives you more opportunities to reinforce it, and so on. And having a strong default down is a very good thing! It's also great technique for teaching attention and recalls - basically, any behavior I want to encourage. I like my dogs to give me eye contact when I ask for it, but I also want them to pay attention to me even if I haven't actually asked for it, so I do a lot of click/treat for spontaneous eye contact or coming towards me on their own.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Great job! 



> Quote:
> crammed a few more into his mouth from sheer joy.


I call this "jackpotting" (other trainers have other terms for it). We use it to strongly reinforce any behavior that we really want -- like a brand new behavior (or I often use it with great recall in distracting circumstances). 

So your instincts were perfect here! 

As for the "elbow," take a look: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/anatomy/musculoskel.aspx#elbow

Three for three! You are batting 1000% today!


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## Hugo-licious (Jun 16, 2009)

I actually owe it to all the folks that took the initiative to respond to my query! I know I was a little out of ideas and listening to all your ideas and suggestions helped me try out different options! So thanks much for that!! 
3K9Mom - the elbow thing is really funny!! I seriously DID NOT know that dogs have elbows too or at least that their elbow-like joint is called elbow








Quick update - its day 2 and now Hugo just plops on the floor when I ask him to down. Its really cute and sans grace but its a perfect down so I HAVE to treat him


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## irudik (Jul 6, 2009)

Oh man, I just tried this method with my 9 week old pup and it worked after only a few tries after trying a few other ways. Awesome!


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

yes it does work!! I ould not get Neek to go in a down, I tried Monks of New Skate way that shoulda been on video LOL, did not work I did not like bending overhim and sliding his front paws down, that gets tricky and then holding treat in front of his nose didnt work either. The CLOSED HAND method worked for me, he went right down and learned it that way and yes keep up the "capture" or whatever its called, if Neeks in a down I will throw him a good treat. When he came here at 3 and half yr old, he only knew "sit"
Congrats!!


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