# Breeding dam back to sire?



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Just curious...came across an ad for pups on the PDB where the dam is bred to her own sire. Seemed kinda strange to me to breed them so closely and wondering why a breeder might do this?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

an oopsie? to close for me


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I don't like inbreeding. There are many great dogs out there, it is simply not necessary and potentially dangerous genetically.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ew.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I saw that too.......either an oops, or just idiots! JMHO!!!

Lee


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I have heard this practice is popular with the Pitt Bull crowd. Matter a fact, some folks that used to belong to our club did this with their Pitts. (excuse me, I meant to say _American Staffordshire Terriers_, as they were quick to correct me over). :shrug:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

If a breeder did this on purpose, I assume they are either trying to uncover hidden recessives in the line, or to "set" rare recessives. But if they are doing that, it's not really ethical to be marketing these puppies to the public. It's more likely it was an oops.

I know a collie breeder who had an oops litter between littermates--and both merles, at that. The bitch came into heat unexpectedly and way off schedule while being kennelled with her brother. This bitch was a show dog, as was her brother, and the breeder decided that letting her whelp the litter would be the least risky to her health. As a consolation, she would chalk it up as a way to see hidden recessives in the line and use it as a learning experience. 

The bitch ended up having, I believe, five puppies. Three of them had some some deafness and blindness due to the double-merle, but none of them had the genetic eye anormality that plagues collies, so she got some important information about the genotype of both parents. 

The breeder euthanized one pup that was both blind and deaf, placed one partially blind and deaf pup with a friend, and grew out the rest until about 5 months of age. Two of them went on to show homes and I believe she ended up keeping one.

Anyway, even though it was an oops, it proved to be a good genetics lesson. Some breeders actually do it on purpose, but IMO they have to be willing to cull heavily if they do this. The Pit Bull people have historically bred their dogs very closely to set genetic "gameness"; father to daughter, mother to son, littermates to each other--but historically, they also culled quite ruthlessly.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Just seems way too risky. Though they tried to up play lines a few generations back, neither dog seemed to be titled or have a hip score. I agree it's probably an oops litter, but definitely not something I would post on the PDB and try to push as a great litter.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I missed the ad on PDB - curious to see how they represented this .
Years ago at one of the major Jack Russell terrier shows and go-to-grounds , (where I was judging obedience ! *jack terriers - obedience !?! hahaha*) I spoke to an English person well known in breeding these dogs back in the UK . This was the practice to weed out problems -- and yes the culling was ruthless . You then pick the one with the closest proximity to where you want to head in the program and use that one for breeding. 

Virtually all breeds BEGAN in this fashion to set uniformity of physical type .

With the gene pool already getting smaller and smaller and more concentrated on common ancestors this is not something that should be done as a plan .


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I missed the ad on PDB - curious to see how they represented this .
> Years ago at one of the major Jack Russell terrier shows and go-to-grounds , (where I was judging obedience ! *jack terriers - obedience !?! hahaha*) I spoke to an English person well known in breeding these dogs back in the UK . This was the practice to weed out problems -- and yes the culling was ruthless . You then pick the one with the closest proximity to where you want to head in the program and use that one for breeding.
> 
> Virtually all breeds BEGAN in this fashion to set uniformity of physical type .
> ...


I don't know squat about breeding so of course would be interested to hear your interpretation. Below is the link to the ad. Not sure if I'm allowed to post, but if not, mods feel free to delete.

Puppies: Linebred pups on Olymp Policia!! (id: 161810) - German Shepherd Dog


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I think most of us have a gut negative reaction to close linebreeding or inbreeding, but it's important to realize that the breeds we now have and many of the traits we fixed are all due to close line/inbreeding. As breeders try to "fix" certain traits in their breeding programs, a certain level of linebreeding is to be expected if they start doing close crosses to bring out certain characteristics (working, conformation, temperament, whatever). 

Here are some examples of some dogs that have been heavily linebred and used as breeding dogs:
2X VA1 Roland von Starkenburg - German Shepherd Dog
1944 GVX CH (US) Frigga v Hoheluft - German Shepherd Dog
V Burga vom Haus Himpel - German Shepherd Dog (holy linebreeding! but this dog went to produce several other V rated dogs with superb characteristics, some studded out quite a bit so linebreeding contributed to fixing certain desirable traits in these breedings. These closely linebred dogs went on to produce their own "typey" dogs)
not just the GSD: V2 Da'Eder von der Brunnenstadt - Belgian Malinois

When you do crosses with totally unrelated dogs, even if they are phenotypically alike, they might produce completely unexpected phenotypes due to the actual genetics going on inside the dog. You take more of a gamble when you start putting random unrelated dogs together. You can't predict what you'll get. Isn't this why we always caution work/show crosses? Unless it is someone that knows what they are doing and can follow this lineage for several generations, these type of crosses are mostly a genetic grab bag if not done right. 

The bonus of linebreeding closely is that you can predict closely what your offspring will be like and you can start fixing traits that you wish to hold strong in your lines. Notice how certain breeders have very characteristic dogs? You can just *look* at a dog and figure out which kennel it is out of. This type of characteristic kennel type can be produced by close linebreeding/inbreeding. You are producing a stereotypical type in your kennel due to what you consider the standard and what type of traits you wish to fix in your breeding program. I've seen a lot of literature and talk about this type of breeding in many AKC conformation breeders. I wish I could find the close crosses for certain American Grand Champions to add to my list above...their line/inbreeding was close. 

You don't necessarily have to do inbreeding (father to daughter, mother to son, sister to brother), you can do very close linebreeding of progeny with similar pedigrees. Linebreeding can be good and bad. Good because you bring out those traits you want and bad because you bring out other undesirable recessives as well. As Carmen said, I am sure there was heavy culling done in these type of close crosses. I imagine breeders produced a lot of undesirable results due to these close breedings. But the good ones would be kept, cultivated and then bred later to produce dogs of a predictable type. 

I don't think we should discount a breeding just because the linebreeding is close, but we should look closely at WHO is doing these crosses. If it is a VERY knowledgeable breeder with experience and they really know the pedigrees of the dogs, it can be the start of an interesting breeding plan. 

When done well, I think many of these close breedings are done with the future in mind. Close linebreedings done by people that know what they are doing can produce great dogs that contribute significantly to the breed. Especially when these good breeders have already accumulated a reliable and best of the best, they can do carefully planned linebreedings that can produce even greater dogs. Then when these closely bred dogs are outcrossed, their progeny can be really cool!
When it's just a couple of yahoos crossing whatever is close by together for the sake of producing extreme types, I obviously disagree with that 

And I agree that these days, there are enough dogs of a certain type so that you can just do close linebreedings if you truly want to fix a type. With the amount of a particular type that is around, I don't think we need to resort to inbreeding closely anymore. I wouldn't discount close linebreeding however...when it's done right by the right person. 

Cool article. I learned a lot from this: Brackett article


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I just saw the breeding on PDB. No, I definitely wouldn't agree with that breeding. They don't look like they know the nuances of the breed/pedigrees enough to tinker around with a cross that close. Especially not with unproven stock.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I just saw the breeding on PDB. No, I definitely wouldn't agree with that breeding. They don't look like they know the nuances of the breed/pedigrees enough to tinker around with a cross that close. Especially not with unproven stock.


Totally agree. The parents are not titled, the dam's parents are not titled, and I'm sorry, but... "B-Dog"? What kind of a name is that? It smells like a BYB to me. I don't know enough about the particular genetics to comment on that, except to say that people who are breeding high-octane working dogs need to know what they're doing, especially with close inbreeding/linebreeding.

Whether this breeding was intentional or accidental, these pups shouldn't be marketed to the general public IMO.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I also wonder if this type close line/inbreeding increases the chances of serious health issues as well?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Only if those genetic issues are already present in the breeding stock. Inbreeding doesn't create bad genes.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I think most of us have a gut negative reaction to close linebreeding or inbreeding, but it's important to realize that the breeds we now have and many of the traits we fixed are all due to close line/inbreeding. As breeders try to "fix" certain traits in their breeding programs, a certain level of linebreeding is to be expected if they start doing close crosses to bring out certain characteristics (working, conformation, temperament, whatever).
> 
> Here are some examples of some dogs that have been heavily linebred and used as breeding dogs:
> 2X VA1 Roland von Starkenburg - German Shepherd Dog
> ...



really great post!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lakl look to the concentration of close linebreeding in show line dogs - german, american .


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I wouldn't immediately place all of the burden on the oft blamed showlines. Sure, they are an easy target and can be accused of many things, but the emergence of recessive alleles (good or bad) can occur in any line or species depending on how closely you interbreed. Let's remember that not only showlines were interbred closely... 

Here are a couple simple articles talking about recessives, inbreeding and the emergence of recessive traits from phenotypically normal parents.
The rat color punnett squares are good at showing how out of every cross, you can potentially get these recessives popping up because of the interplay between dominant/recessives. 

Rattus Choki Pet Blog: Some scenarios for inbreeding, line breeding and outcrossing shows some example crosses and recessives being expressed due to repeated inbreeding/linebreeding. 
http://www.theokaa.org/articles/inbreeding.pdf explains dominant/recessive alleles and their influence on pheno/genotypes.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Daphne said it well up there. Close breedings don't create bad genes. They only allow recessives to be expressed at a greater rate due to a gradual phasing out of the dominant alleles. Usually for a single gene to trait scenario, you need your two recessives to express a recessive trait. But the problem with recessive traits is that many times they will be mutated or disease carrying (meaning 2 copies of a recessive without a normal dominant allele to compensate results in a defective gene leading to defective protein leading to a disease state). Some recessives won't be bad and can be fixed in that breeding program. So it's certainly a gamble when breeding so closely, you might win out and get good stock. Or you will get genetic messes that need to be culled. Of course this gets very interesting and complicated when you factor in polygenic characteristics like appearance, personality, temperament etc. Polygenic traits are harder to fix in a population and don't give as many consistent results. Which is why you start having genetic issues becoming prevalent in very closely bred populations. 

If you can, read a little about the sickle cell phenomenon. I think it's a cool study for people wanting to understand dom/recessives genetics better. And a case where a "disease" state does not necessarily have to be bad.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

How do they determine in such a young litter of pups, which should be culled or kept? Referring to those that might perform this type of breeding with knowledge and a specific purpose or goal?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

many things to say , first thank you haus Himpel for Burga !!!!
number two , I can't get too flustered over this pedigree . This looks like a kennel with a plan trying to set a foundation . You don't often see breeders holding back stock and trying to manage and fine tune and make a family line . 
Thirdly the animals within that pedigree are quality .
Fourthly the animlas within that pedigree are themselves not linebred or inbred , fairly open , diverse , variety . 

THAT is what needs to be examined and understood.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

But without any working titles or health testing (assuming since none are listed), how strong can they determine the foundation to be?


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## Liberatore (May 25, 2012)

Lakl said:


> But without any working titles or health testing (assuming since none are listed), how strong can they determine the foundation to be?


Untitled does not mean untested or untrained, it just means untitled.

Ang


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Liberatore said:


> Untitled does not mean untested or untrained, it just means untitled.


But untitled also means unproven, and I'm not talking about "untitled" dogs that are out there working law enforcement, SAR, assistance, etc. etc. Real working dogs have certainly proven themselves, many times over on many different levels. But backyard-bred dogs owned and raised at the breeders' home, with no titles, are probably not out there doing real work. For all we know, the dogs have never left the property, and could have severe temperament issues--often those issues don't surface until the dog is put under pressure. A dog could be perfectly fine on his home territory and a basket case in public with strangers around him.

The point is, we don't know. They could be wonderful dogs, perfect specimens, with extensive training and testing. But without titles or some kind of working certificate, you only have the breeders' word to go on. If the breeder happens to be an extremely knowledgable person in the GSD world, I'd tend to trust their judgement, but if some yokel bought two "nice" GSDs and started breeding them, discovered they could make money at it, and so kept doing it over many untested generations... eh, not so much.


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## Liberatore (May 25, 2012)

The question was without titles how can 'they' (breeder) know how strong the foundation (of their breeding program presumably) is. The answer is through testing. Again, untitled does not mean untested. Not going to get into a debate over titled v. untitled or how accurate titles are in predicting breeding worth. Just answering a question. You know how strong the dogs are through testing - period. What type of testing or titling is entirely another question.

Ang


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Liberatore said:


> The question was without titles how can 'they' (breeder) know how strong the foundation (of their breeding program presumably) is. The answer is through testing. Again, untitled does not mean untested. Not going to get into a debate over titled v. untitled or how accurate titles are in predicting breeding worth. Just answering a question. You know how strong the dogs are through testing - period. What type of testing or titling is entirely another question.
> 
> Ang


Is titling or "working" your dogs not considered a test of their capabilities and soundness? The question was 2 part, not just on titling, but health testing as well. There are a few breeders out there who's judgement I would not question when it comes to this breed and I don't need a title for reassurance. But one posted with several blank pedigrees in both areas and fair or no rated hips at all over the place with a pic of the sire lying at the end of a long chain is not one I'd be inclined to lay blind faith in. Parents listed as being energetic with strong drives tells me nothing as a consumer.


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## Liberatore (May 25, 2012)

If I couldn't trust a specific breeder to know enough about dogs to be able to assess an untitled dog for breeding potential, I wouldn't trust that breeder enough to breed titled dogs either. If a breeder doesn't understand dogs and breeding, all the titles and tests in the world aren't going to help.

Ang


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Here's the problem: most people don't have the opportunity to visit trials/shows/clubs to get to know individual dogs and their abilities. If you visit shows regularly, attend trials and seminars and are part of a club, you get to see a ton of good dogs and you can base your opinion on seeing them first hand. I completely agree that this is the best way to go about it. But not practical for most puppy buyers. Before I got really into dogs, I couldn't have assessed a breeder's program without titles/ratings/breed survey. A title doesn't mean the dog is perfect, but it does mean that work has been done on it and it has passed a test. A layman can use this information to compare to a set standard. The test isn't perfect, but it's something that helps you assess a breeder, especially when it's all you have. Think about it like deciding between 2 people to hire. You have no prior experience with either and sight unseen, you wish to hire one. Would you hire a university graduate with honors or someone with a high school diploma?

Just considering this breeding that Lakl was referring to, I don't think much of their breeding program because of the lack of titles/ratings. I couldn't find any real information online either. No trials entered, no competitions won, and no real info. They could be doing these things, but as someone looking from a distance, I can't find or see these merits. 
They could be great breeders, but I have no way of knowing that without personally going to visit them and seeing their dogs work. So for a breeder to be selling such a highly inbred litter and not have any bells and whistles to back it up, it's just plain weird. Especially for working dogs, I like to see a 1 minimum (or a K9/SAR etc), hip/elbow scores and breed-surveyed. I don't understand why a breeder WOULDN'T do these things if they wanted to sell pups in this day and age... And obviously they are looking to sell dogs considering that they are posting on PDB. But again, how do we know their working ability? Do we have any way of measuring their dogs against a standard? Not from behind a computer screen...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In breeding you reap what you sow!!!! (genetically)...lol
I think there are good points made by all....I dont think that the person advertising a litter like this would be targeting the newby or the moderately informed. The former wouldn't wouldn't know the value of the dogs listed, and the latter would only know the negatives of not seeing titles. I do think that if the breeding is part of a plan with good genetic foundation, the more knowledgable would recognize it and potentially people in the real working world,(SAR, PPD, possible police candidate, real ranch herding with sheep,cattle, or goats, etc) may be interested in this breeding. 
I personally think it is the breeders responsibility to produce quality animals, (notwithstanding natures interruptions), I dont think a breeder has to breed a litter that everyone can identify the quality. What criteria do you use???? To many people they don't understand titles and what they entail, and then you have those that use titles as validation, which is better than the beginner but not much more, because titles dont pass in the genes. Then you have them that can look at pedigree(if its accurate) and have a good feel for the quality. So many different levels of understanding. 
I didnt look at the breeding to make an assessment, but if Liberatore or Carmen see some good in the breeding, I probably would also, with or without titles. 
My point is some are making judgements on the breeding but dont really know what is being bred.....i find that far more dangerous than breeding without titles. Sometimes it is better to say i dont know enough to make an assessment, than make one on a basis that really isnt accurate. 
I am not putting down titles, they just arent as important as the genes and the combination of the two dogs being bred.JMO


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Just wanted to add this:
"Good, strong working lines for Schutzhund or protection work. They will also make great family dogs. Parents are energetic and have strong drives."

This is how the litter is advertised. No mention of the dogs suitable for actual work. Notice the emphasis on Schh and protection? Interesting way to advertise a litter out of untitled parents...if you are advertising a litter and presumably advertising for sport dogs, why not title your dogs to get that point across? 

I completely agree that titles don't make a dog. Substance trumps pomp and circumstance. But I'm wondering why go about it this way if you advertise sport and protection dogs?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Just another thought I had...
If this were an inbred showline litter, what would our reactions be? Would anyone on the board be an advocate for the litter?


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## Liberatore (May 25, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Just another thought I had...
> If this were an inbred showline litter, what would our reactions be? Would anyone on the board be an advocate for the litter?


I think it would depend upon the breeding.

Ang


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Let me regress because it was not my intention to make this about the breeder, but more to understand a breeding done this closely within the bloodline. I just like to learn and ask lots of questions, and have gotten some really good answers and discussion.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

IMO, if this were an inbred showline litter with untitled parents for a couple generations, heavily linebred on top show dogs 2 or 3 generations back, and no evidence of health certs, it would be ripped to shreds and I doubt _anyone _would step up in favor of the breeding.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Sorry Lakl, I'm going to get off my soap box now and let the thread get back on track


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

This is a really great thread! Very good points made here. Really enjoying reading this! 

I have to agree that the pedigree in the back is very strong. If the person who is doing this breeding knows what they are doing, this has a lot of potential. 

It is possible that their health testing is done through a private health testing company. OFA is not the only place. You still get certificates of proof from the other places. OFA is just the most popular and has that valuable database that we can search. But we cannot assume these dogs are not health tested. 

These could also be unfinished pedigrees. The dogs are titled but they have not listed the titles. The person with these dogs is less familiar with the internet and how to add all of the information about their dogs. 

That is my biggest issue with the database. Its so valuable, but DANG IT there are SO MANY errors and holes in the pedigrees it is nearly impossible to get a full picture of what you want to know about a dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you put any faith in reading a pedigree for prediction on outcome then you have to read this pedigree and study the ancestors . I can't find any holes or weakness . 

*Pedigree table for the progeny of Springfalls B-Dog and Springfalls Miya*

Springfalls B-DogEcho Trpaslik Policia
AKC/DN14226101SCHH3 ZVV1
Olymp Policia
AKC/DL77442901SVV2
VELMI DOBRY Barry Asbrete
CKS/13396/93/96ZVV1
Kreda Policia SKSCHH3 IPO3 ZVV1
Gimi Bílý Trpaslik
AKC/DN06604202WUSV 1997(FASE C 99), IPO3, SCHH3, ZM, ZVV3, ZPS1
SG Grim z Pohranicni straze CS
SZ/9110595ZPO 1, ZPS 1, IPO 3, SCHH 3, ZVV 1
Bety Bily trpaslik
CMKU/DS/30522/97/99Feisty Linnershof Gleisdreieck
AKC/DN18778702SCHH3,ZB
SG Racker vom Gleisdreieck
SZ/2106857SCHHH3 (V-BSP; SG-WUSV) FH1 IP3
V Glenn von der Hühnergasse
SZ/1993589SCHH2
G Meggy vom Gleisdreieck (DDR)
SZ/1944005IPO1
Acha't Linnershof
DN/04087401WUSV BSP LGAX2 FCI SCHH3
SG Brix vom Stoffelblick
SZ/20113557X SCHH3, 10X IPO3, IWR3
Ursel 't Palmaleinehof
LOSH/0786578Springfalls MiyaSpringfalls B-DogEcho Trpaslik Policia
AKC/DN14226101SCHH3 ZVV1
Olymp Policia
AKC/DL77442901SCHH3 IPO3 ZVV1
Gimi Bílý Trpaslik
AKC/DN06604202Feisty Linnershof Gleisdreieck
AKC/DN18778702SCHH3,ZB
SG Racker vom Gleisdreieck
SZ/2106857IPO1
Acha't Linnershof
DN/04087401Springfalls MaggieSpringfalls Tyson
CKC/SG106588RazorBlade Von Oak TreeAnja Torro Von Javorove
AKC/DN08520703Lexi z Diehlomov
AKC/DN14221703SCHH3 FH1
V Eick von der Berger Hochburg
SZ/2094038SCHH3, FH, PD, SVV1
G Perry Lasmon


There is no comparision to the modern show lines post the Martin brothers which are highly saturated in ONE founding sire Canto Wienerau . 
Look at the line breeding of this pedigree we are discussing 
*Line-breeding - 5 generations*


4 - 5............................................. in SG Brix vom Stoffelblick
4 - 5............................................. in V Glenn von der Hühnergasse
4 - 5............................................. in G Meggy vom Gleisdreieck (DDR)
4 - 5............................................. in Ursel 't Palmaleinehof
4 - 5............................................. in VELMI DOBRY Barry Asbrete
3 - 4............................................. in Acha't Linnershof
4 - 5............................................. in SG Grim z Pohranicni straze CS
3 - 4............................................. in SG Racker vom Gleisdreieck
4 - 5............................................. in Kreda Policia SK
4 - 5............................................. in Bety Bily trpaslik
3 - 4............................................. in Olymp Policia
3 - 4............................................. in Gimi Bílý Trpaslik
2 - 3............................................. in Feisty Linnershof Gleisdreieck
2 - 3............................................. in Echo Trpaslik Policia
1 - 2............................................. in Springfalls B-Dog

That is far more open than many/any of the dogs in the ICEBERG thread . Plus this is ONE litter , one persons attempt (or accidental breeding) so only affects , at most the number of pups born which in this case is 6 pups. Reproduction can easily be managed -- mandatory spay or neuter , non - breeding --- or if deliberate some real hard thinking on where to go next, keeping what you hoped to gain and consolidate and swing out and bring in fresh , new . 
The difference in the show lines, is that they are founded on very faulty genetics, premature deaths, extreme bad hips, extreme bad temperament , hemophilia -- AND , this goes so far beyond one kennels little experiment . The power and influence and the desire to win and be part of the group spread this breeding theme like a virus to infect all the west german show lines remaining. You can not get away from it. 

The criteria are different.

Cliff do have a look at the pedigree .

Is this breeding device something I would recommend or advocate -- no, not really . 

Have I seen dogs from this kind of breeding -- yes, pit bulls, jack russell terriers , malinois -- french ring mals, oh yes. 
I have contacted the breeder with one simple question, nothing else . 
Is the information provided on the pedigree data base mating check correct. It is not too difficult to cut and paste something , and not double check.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I put that out there to make it really easy for Cliff to have a look at the background. 

It would be shocking if either sire or dam of the litter were compromised or faulty in their temperament. What is the purpose of studying pedigrees if something so solid should come out dead opposite of the expected.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I am not discounting inbreeding/linebreeding btw. Look back to top of page 2. I make a case FOR it. My point was that _experienced_ breeders that understand the pedigrees and their dogs should be the ones tinkering with this type of close inbreeding, not people that seem to only have their toes in the water. This feeling was resonated by most people on this thread. 

I also feel that as a breeder advertising for sport dog candidates, they should be able to prove the working ability of their 2 breeding dogs. Especially when the litter is so heavily linebred. Not every dog out of every litter is a rock star, regardless of how great their pedigree is. I'm sure no one would disagree on that point. I don't think breeders should rest solely on the laurels and accomplishments of great dogs in the lineage of their breeding dogs. I like breeders to _prove_ their breeding stock. Doesn't have to be fancy titles or ratings, but something to showcase and prove their dogs. But that's just me and what I look for when looking for a pup. Doesn't have to be the criteria for others, I'm sure you have more experience and ability than I have in this area which allows you to pick dogs based on experience and pedigree. I, however, am not at that point so I do have to base it on workability and how the stock is proven, in addition to pedigrees/hearsay/etc.

If you get info back on the working ability of the breeding dogs, I'd be interested in hearing that


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

4TheDawgies said:


> These could also be unfinished pedigrees. The dogs are titled but they have not listed the titles. The person with these dogs is less familiar with the internet and how to add all of the information about their dogs.
> 
> That is my biggest issue with the database. Its so valuable, but DANG IT there are SO MANY errors and holes in the pedigrees it is nearly impossible to get a full picture of what you want to know about a dog.


Was thinking this too Maris!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@gbchottu....how do YOU know this breeding won't make for good Sch dog? Especially if you don't know the traits of the dogs in this breeding....just curious.
@ Lakl....I would tend to believe that if person has these dogs and is attempting this it's either a complete novice or an experienced older breeder that doesn't abide by today's norms and knows their dogs. 
If this were SL litter, the SL people couldn't slam the breeder because this kinda of breeding is what the SL are made up of. Some inbred in places, others(all of them) back massed on in/line breeding ....Some WL people may, but it would be because they would wonder why would you inbreed two back massed dogs.
Inbreeding as others have said should only be done by experienced breeders that thoroughly know the dogs in the pedigree and have a plan.....my question is how does anybody on this forum know if this breeder fits that criteria.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Legion are the dogs sold on the basis of WORLD famous V - VA import German show line stock -- with the breeders never themselves showing the dogs . For big money too.


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## Liberatore (May 25, 2012)

Carmen, I so wasn't going to get into what is wrong with show line back massing and inbreeding which is why I left it at 'it depends'. 

Cliff, that's exactly it, if someone is truly interested in this particular litter (or any for that matter) I would suggest contacting the breeder directly, rather than speculating on the why's on an internet board.

Really though, my only reason for posting on this at all was to point out that an untitled dog does not always mean an untested dog.

Ang


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> @gbchottu....how do YOU know this breeding won't make for good Sch dog? Especially if you don't know the traits of the dogs in this breeding....just curious.


I don't. But where did I say that I did?

Hence the reason why I asked about the dog's working ability and inquired about what the breeder has done to showcase this ability. Nowhere did I claim these pups will be terrible. I only said that this particular breeder seems to be going about in a way that I don't agree with and without further info, I still maintain that I don't think they have the experience to be inbreeding this closely. 

Here as well, after Carmen mentioned that she was emailing the breeder:


> If you get info back on the working ability of the breeding dogs, I'd be interested in hearing that


I never said I had anywhere near the experience Carmen or you have to make assessments about a dog's working ability. Nor have I ever claimed I did. As a "layman" to the working dog world, I asked a question about working ability and how this breeder has proven that in their breeding stock. You seem to vehemently assert that these dogs are good regardless of proven working ability based on Carmen/Ang's estimations. 

How do YOU know that? Via pedigrees, working dogs within the lineage and personal experience with generations of breeding quality litters. But I don't have that experience. So I asked for some proven evidence of working ability. Considering a working dog breeding, I don't think that's an out of line or stupid question to inquire about a dog's working ability or Schh readiness. Especially when these dogs are being marketed for that purpose. I am asking a legitimate question about these dogs and if you can offer me any evidence that leads to an answer, I welcome it!

I also don't think that just because I or someone else doesn't have the experience that you (universal you) have doesn't mean that we can't contribute to a meaningful discussion in these type of threads. Active discussion and interaction leads to knowledge being bounced around. We aren't all at the same level, but we are all here to learn. JMO


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Liberatore said:


> if someone is truly interested in this particular litter (or any for that matter) I would suggest contacting the breeder directly, rather than speculating on the why's on an internet board.
> 
> Ang



I have no specific interest in the litter. I have recently aquired an AMAZING new pup that I am enamored with from a breeder I fully trust. It was just something I came across while on the database. I believe it was one of those pop up ads in the top right hand corner. I click on them often and just like to look at what people are breeding. I'm also not sure how receptive this breeder would be to me calling and questioning their breeding practices when I have no interest in purchasing a pup. I enjoy discussing topics that bring in some of the more knowledgeable members of the board, and the more I learn, the better.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

on the record - would I do this , no, would I recommend this no. Personally I feel that ALL pure-bred dogs are in deep trouble because of the increasingly narrowed gene pool , bottle-necks. I am looking for diversity while retaining predictable qualities. For this line of reasoning I am critical of the direction that show line dogs have taken.

If you really want to know what has gone on, what is going on , and repercussions , then I highly , highly recommend you make yourself familiar with Dr Peter van Oirschott . I have provided links to his lecture years ago on another site , more genetics based . http://asowerswill.homestead.com/files/peter_part1_seminar__gsd.doc

Carmen


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## therawlife1 (Aug 22, 2012)

This is a great topic and exactly what i was looking for.. I am actually a american bully(extreme pitbulls) breeder, i have been doing this for the last 10 yrs. Yes it is true we do inbreed alot of our stock, not to often in my kennel do we do mother to son, father to daughter.. Cousins yes, grand kids/grand parents yes. We do this to lock in a certain look so when we have to outcross that look stays. To breed parents/kids parents shouldn't be to closely inbred(if they share 1-2 grand parents thats fine) and at least one parent would need to have a outcross in order not to run into faults.. I dont really like to breed parents/kids though, some do! We've actually been breeding all our girls to outcrosses for the last 1.5 yr, given us enough outcrosses to get back to inbreeding for 2 years.

But i've just recently bought a male gsd, reason being i didnt want to immediately jump into shepherds with a female. I'd rather sit back and learn.. Get a female in a 1.5 yr. From a well established kennel to breed to my male, i havent got my papers back yet to see how he's bred im pretty sure he's just the average shepherd, being that i got him from a local breeder.. Nice big bones with a wonderful attitude, fits right in with my bully pups!!! But i like to create from average to reach my peak, just like i did with my bullies to cherish my success.. Thanks for the info on inbreeding shepherds now i know that that is out the window for this breed!lol

bill


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