# Black and White GSD



## Lolita117 (Aug 7, 2008)

So I just recently purchased a solid black GSD female to be in our breeding program when she comes of age. I only have Black and Tan saddle backs besides her. I've got a lot of questions on the solid black color and when I explain that it is recessive, I've also mentioned at Solid white is also recessive. Then people have asked me, what do you get when you breed a solid white and a solid black since they are both recessive traits. So I'm curious as to what gets produced? I don't have any solid white and don't plan on ever breeding them - I just prefer the black and tans, and solid black. 

Are there any genetic issue that come about from breeding 2 recessive colors or do you get just about 50/50 solid white and solid black pups?


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Actually, there are two genes for white coats from what I've heard/read. One allows the dog to retain pigmentation (black nose and such). The other tends to leave the dog with a pink nose and such traits. 
These are NOT both recessive. One is actually a masking gene, so it can sometimes even mask sable (the dominant gene). 
So I assume that the outcome of the puppies truly depends on which white gene the white parent carries, and if it is the masking gene then it will also depend on the genes passed on and masked.
I leave the rest to experts


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The white color comes from a masking gene on a different locus (not sure if I'm using the term correctly) than the colour genes. White dogs carry "normal" colour genes in addition of the two copies of the white masking gene, in which case the white is expressed, and masks the colour that the dog would have shown if not for the white masking gene. 

So if you breed a black to a white, it will all depend what colour gene the white dog has. It could be sable, or black and tan, or solid black, and the colour of he pups will reflect the inheritance of the colour genes the white dog carries. If there are white dogs in the solid black's background, the the black dog may be carrying one copy of the white masking gene too, and if that is the case, then some of the pups may be all white. If no white dogs in the background of the black dog, then there won't be any white pups, though some may be carriers of the white masking gene and may produce white dogs if bred to a white or a coloured dog that carries the white masking gene.


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> The white color comes from a masking gene on a different locus (not sure if I'm using the term correctly) than the colour genes. White dogs carry "normal" colour genes in addition of the two copies of the white masking gene, in which case the white is expressed, and masks the colour that the dog would have shown if not for the white masking gene.
> 
> So if you breed a black to a white, it will all depend what colour gene the white dog has. It could be sable, or black and tan, or solid black, and the colour of he pups will reflect the inheritance of the colour genes the white dog carries. If there are white dogs in the solid black's background, the the black dog may be carrying one copy of the white masking gene too, and if that is the case, then some of the pups may be all white. If no white dogs in the background of the black dog, then there won't be any white pups, though some may be carriers of the white masking gene and may produce white dogs if bred to a white or a coloured dog that carries the white masking gene.


 ^ Much better answer than mine  At least I got it right that it would depend on the dogs in the white shepherd's ancestry


----------



## Lolita117 (Aug 7, 2008)

So say the Black is all black, both parents were solid black, and all 4 grandparents. Same with the white, white parents, all white grandparents. Than the pups would most likely be all white? 

I always though white was recessive because it usually gets covered up if bred to something other than white, like BLK and Tan or sable. I've never looked much into their genetics because the reason I said above. But now this is really interesting to me. Thanks.


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I think the pups wouldn't be white from what Lucia said. They would all carry the gene for it, but they wouldn't be white. Unless a dog farther down the line on the black side had been a white. 
Still, I think it would depend on the colors being masked by the white. As Lucia said, white isn't actually a gene. The dogs still carry the sable, b/t, black genes they would have if they weren't white. Those colors are the ACTUAL color genes. However, those genes are masked by the white masking gene. Which is its own gene.

Sorry if that post made no sense. I tried :/


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Kimmey is correct. The puppies would had to inherit two white recessive genes in order for the white masking gene to be expressed. One copy for the father, and one copy from the mother. If one parent was solid black as far back in the pedigree as you can see, not very likely that it would be a carrier for the white masking gene. 

The puppies will inherit a black gene from the black parent, and whatever colour gene the white parent is carrying, but not expressing. They may inherit the white masking gene in addition to the colour gene, but since they only have one copy of it, it won't be expressed, so they will be whatever colour the white gene is masking in the white dog. The pups could be sable, or black and tan, or black, all depending on the colour gene they inherit from the white dog.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

you might find this interesting. There are whites and colors. The ad is sad, but for what its worth.......
German Shepherd puppies


----------



## Bec'n'Chuck (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi there, I'm new here and have just purchased another GSD after 17 years. I owned a white GSD which had black skin,nose etc but tragically lost him when he was just over 12months old to a car accident.
Only now have I been able to get another GSD. I was looking on the internet for another white GSD when I saw an ad for a purebred Black and White GSD. I thought "NO WAY". I sent the owner an email and he emailed a pic back to me. Anyway I went and got him, and he's more beautiful than his pic I was sent. Chuck IS Black and White with some tan (he has a tan patch on his back leg) the colour of his hair under the black is a fawn/silvery colour. Chuck's mother is white and his father is black. Chuck was the ONLY pup in his litter to be coloured in this way, his littermates were either black or white.


----------

