# When you refer to a SABLE GSD



## Harley Hound57 (May 12, 2013)

What is a SABLE GSD.

Thanks
Chuck


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Type of coat. The hairs are banded. Our pup ranger has three different colors on a single hair strand. I believe it is the dominant color for gsds or maybe that's just working lines.....hmmm maybe someone else can answer on that.


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## Harley Hound57 (May 12, 2013)

So is my Maggie SABLE Link to Pic
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/introductions-welcome-mat/278786-my-maggie.html


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

can tell in those pictures. Can you post pictures of her closer and full bodied from the side? 

as for what is sable, sable is a dominant coloration in GSDs. As said above, the hairs are banded. Usually a lighter color closer to the body with dark tips on the end.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Your Maggie is black and tan.


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## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Your Maggie is black and tan.


She is a saddle back sable not a b&t. Her saddle is not black.


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## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Your Maggie is black and tan.


It gives off the illusion of being a Black and Tan but in fact Maggie is not  


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

EmeryGSD said:


> She is a saddle back sable not a b&t. Her saddle is not black.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 the term is patterned sable.


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## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

KZoppa said:


> the term is patterned sable.


Pardon me. 


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## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

KZoppa said:


> the term is patterned sable.


Either way I got the point across 


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

EmeryGSD said:


> Either way I got the point across
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
oh yeah?!?!?!!


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## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

KZoppa said:


> oh yeah?!?!?!!


Yea ^.^  


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## Harley Hound57 (May 12, 2013)

I'll post better pics tomorrow, she sleeping right now.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

EmeryGSD said:


> Yea ^.^
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
well alright then! 



Harley Hound57 said:


> I'll post better pics tomorrow, she sleeping right now.


 
awesome.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

She still looks like a washed out black and tan to me. I'm not seeing sable at all in that first picture. 

Kind of like the third dog in this picture.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/introductions-welcome-mat/278786-my-maggie.html

agree washed out black and tan


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

So Tasha's papers say black and red but she has 3 colors on one strand of hair does that make her sable?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ No, my Nikon is getting more bleed through as he ages and has the same thing, but he's not a sable. His parents were both black and tan/red. The dog can't become a sable, they either are or aren't.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Maggie is Black and Tan. The patterning you see down her neck/back is called a bitch stripe and is very common in West German Show lines. Think of it as greying.


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## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

Well whatever! Lol she is beautiful , black, tan, white, black, orange, blue, pink, green haha. Your dog is just gorgeous. I guess I was wrong. I do apologize!  just looks very similar to a sable.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Often the bitch stripe throws people off. Once you see a number of Black and Tans with bitch stripe, and a number of patterned sables, you can spot the difference.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Liesje said:


> ^ No, my Nikon is getting more bleed through as he ages and has the same thing, but he's not a sable. His parents were both black and tan/red. The dog can't become a sable, they either are or aren't.


We got her as a rescue so I don't know if she has always been like this or not but she has three distinct colors on one strand of hair most of the way down her back to the black spot.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me she looks black and tan. Most have what you are describing.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Liesje said:


> To me she looks black and tan. Most have what you are describing.


ok...  It really doesn't matter to me what she is called although black and red is probably closer. My cell phone camera really washes her out she is a beautiful red color. Her papers tell me she is from Nadelhaus lines.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok so since we are trying to figure it out... what would you call Knuckles? I call him a Knucklehead, but whats his coloring considered?


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## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

Kittilicious said:


> Ok so since we are trying to figure it out... what would you call Knuckles? I call him a Knucklehead, but whats his coloring considered?


Post a pic?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shepherdmom said:


> We got her as a rescue so I don't know if she has always been like this or not but she has three distinct colors on one strand of hair most of the way down her back to the black spot.


From the pictures you posted in this thread, I'd definitely say she's black and tan. She just has a prominant bitch stripe.


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## Piper'sgrl (Apr 20, 2012)

Kittilicious said:


> Ok so since we are trying to figure it out... what would you call Knuckles? I call him a Knucklehead, but whats his coloring considered?


If Knuckles is the cutie in your dp--definitely a pattern sable


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> From the pictures you posted in this thread, I'd definitely say she's black and tan. She just has a prominant bitch stripe.


Tried to get some better pictures. I didn't realize that a bitch stripe went that far down the back.


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## Harley Hound57 (May 12, 2013)

Here are some different pics



























And this handsome young man is Rusty


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Harley Hound57 said:


> Here are some different pics
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OOoh rusty is a cutie.


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## Harley Hound57 (May 12, 2013)

This is Rusty at 8 Weeks


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Rusty is adorable!

Yep it can go that far down the back. Bianca my GSD was a black/tan saddle back, and you can kinda see here, her "bitch stripe" pretty much went all the way down her back:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shepherdmom said:


> Tried to get some better pictures. I didn't realize that a bitch stripe went that far down the back.





Harley Hound57 said:


> Here are some different pics


Both of your dogs are black and tan, no question. Definitely not sables.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Sable is more than a hair with more than one color. They typically have very dark mask and other features that are clear with a bit of research. I find its funny that people with black and tans want their dog to be sable.


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## Harley Hound57 (May 12, 2013)

volcano said:


> Sable is more than a hair with more than one color. They typically have very dark mask and other features that are clear with a bit of research. I find its funny that people with black and tans want their dog to be sable.


For me it's just information as to what my girl is. Now rusty on the other hand i know hes sable!!


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

EmeryGSD said:


> Post a pic?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I swore I did. THats what I get for not double checking.


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## Piper'sgrl (Apr 20, 2012)

Kittilicious said:


> I swore I did. THats what I get for not double checking.


He's 100% pattern Sable...like my girl but her coat is darker than your guy


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

volcano said:


> Sable is more than a hair with more than one color. They typically have very dark mask and other features that are clear with a bit of research. I find its funny that people with black and tans want their dog to be sable.



First off my dogs paperwork all says black and red, so I'm going with that although I really don't care. I'm just trying to get clarification because if you look at the single strands of hair on her back each one has 3 different colors and that was what I was told was sable. I really could care less what anyone calls her I'm just trying to understand the difference. Does a bitch stripe have that 3 different colors on the individual hair pattern?


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## gowen (Nov 4, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> I swore I did. THats what I get for not double checking.


Definitely Sable!

I've also thrown in Dolly. She is sable, though don't feel like going through thousands, I ran outside and snapped a pic of her chilling in the sun.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

She is Black/Tan 100%. She does have some red in her coat around the ears and neck. I had a b/t male that had some nice red highlights. She def is not a sable you can look up sable dogs light and dark all over this forum. You can also look up black and red mostly WGSL but other lines have it also.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Yes, they can have multiple colors on the same piece of hair and not be sable.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Oh she is definitely red my camera doesn't do her justice. It's a cell phone camera.. I have her akc papers that say red/black and she is West German show lines. 

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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Most GSDs have many multi coloured hairs on many parts of their body. A sable is like that everywhere. Black and tan gsds have solid black and solid tan portions (as well as banded hairs too), blacks have solid black hairs, sables have banded hair all over. It is similar concept to your traditional coloured wolf. Patterns are just that -the pattern the sable is in. I have a sable dog with saddleback pattern. I have a black and tan with saddleback pattern - they look nothing alike colourwise.

This picture comparison may help - and Cajun is not a black sable so it might make it easier to differentiate - black sables are clearly sables imo, no confusing a nice dark black sable with a black and tan lol.

Notice that both dogs have the same pattern, but Eli has a solid black back whereas every one of Cajuns hairs have a different coloured tip. Eli still has 'sable like colouring' on his neck, tail and shoulders but you can see the lighter colouring on Cajun underneath his hair everywhere.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If she is West German Show line, then she is definitely black and tan (or black and red). WGSL don't really come in sable, unless the pedigree has some working lines in there, and one of the parents of your girl was sable. 

Sable is dominant over all other colors. Two black and tans cannot produce a sable.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> If she is West German Show line, then she is definitely black and tan (or black and red). WGSL don't really come in sable, unless the pedigree has some working lines in there, and one of the parents of your girl was sable.


There are sable West German show lines though - most often going back to the von Arlett dogs or certain notables like VA Timo. 

Here is my sable WGSL pup out of sable VA Waiko - the sable coming from dam Polara, then to Champ Dakota and then back to the Arlett dogs. 



























With her black and red sister on the left and my sable working line on the right


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

You can distinguish the sables from their black/red littermates early on as the sables will look like this prior to changing over to their adult color:

Finn









Cassie









Cassie is litter sister from a previous litter to the black and red pup in the last pic from my previous post. So the same sable male can produce both black/red and sable pups when paired with a black/red female as the male only carries one copy sable and the other copy is black/red. When pup is sable(father)/blackred(mother), pup phenotype (outside) is sable. When pup is blackred(father)/blackred(mother), pup is classic black/red.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I didn't have my girl from a puppy so I'm not sure what she looked like. She was already adult and tailless when I got her via rescue.  

She is from Nadelhaus lines. Diego's brother Drake vom Nadelhaus is her sire. Her dam is Xasha vom Nadelhaus II. Her AKC paperwork says that she is Black and Red so I'm guessing if she was Sable it would say Sable? 

My cell phone is an original Incredible so really old and doesn't take pictures so good anymore. It really washes her out. The pictures on the website are the color red she is. Nadelhaus German Shepherds

So what I'm seeing is just a really noticeable bitch stripe. Everyone comments on her pretty stripes on her back.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

shepherdmom: your dog is black/red - not sable


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> shepherdmom: your dog is black/red - not sable


Yes, thank you I get that.

Sorry I wasn't clear...I was asking if a puppy is Sable is that what it says on the paperwork? My boys Buddy and Shadow said Black and Silver but Shadow always looked the more classic Black and Tan to me while Buddy does look more Silver (well grey now LOL) Neither of them had the bitch stripe so I didn't realize that was what the wierd coloring on the shoulders was all about. 


My Buddy is working line... Czech. 











As was Shadow...his littermate. 










Sorry for the terrible picture I really need to get a real camera.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Paperwork just says whatever the person who registers the dog puts down as the color - I wouldn't take paperwork color as authority because the veracity of the information depends on the reliability of whomever put said information down on paper  

Can't tell much from those picture unfortunately!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Paperwork just says whatever the person who registers the dog puts down as the color - I wouldn't take paperwork color as authority because the veracity of the information depends on the reliability of whomever put said information down on paper
> 
> Can't tell much from those picture unfortunately!


Ok thanks! I take terrible pictures... LOL

Oh wait I do have a professional picture I had take of the boys when they were puppies... See how washed out my phone makes them look compared to their real coloring.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Those pups are black/tan - there is no such color as black/silver. Silver is just an euphemism for washed out tan and fading pigmentation. 

Cute picture - love the three stages of ears: both up, one up, and two floppy!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Those pups are black/tan - there is no such color as black/silver. Silver is just an euphemism for washed out tan and fading pigmentation.
> 
> Cute picture - love the three stages of ears: both up, one up, and two floppy!


Thanks. We love that picture too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

black and tan - the tan can have a range from brown to mahogany to beige - grey but it is all "tan"


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Timo, wow! :wub:

(interesting read on the von arlett link!  )



qbchottu said:


> There are sable West German show lines though - most often going back to the von Arlett dogs or certain notables like VA Timo.
> 
> <snipped>


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

How much Red has to be in the dog to be considered black/red vs. black/tan? Seems like most of the dogs I have seen that are black/red have red faces and ears but also have tan legs.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> black and tan - the tan can have a range from brown to mahogany to beige - grey but it is all "tan"


Buddy (puppy on right) is 11 now and really is grey even the black part is somewhat grey. LOL. 

So black and red the deep mahogany color and is actually considered black and tan as well? 

Next time I'm going to just get a white, so much easier to describe.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I could be wrong, so please correct me if I'm not

Black and Tan doesn't actually just refer to colour but actually pattern, Black and Red simply means the tan colouring is more of a reddish hue, a Black and Silver (which I think is actually a incorrect term?) simply means the tan colouring is mostly washed out and greyish and so on and so forth. The pattern itself is either a black blanket or saddle black with the tan (brown) colouring on most of the rest of the body

Just like people with blonde hair, there are *many* shades. One person could say their hair is 'honey blonde' or "strawberry blonde' or 'white blonde' etc, it's all just blonde hair just different descriptions


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

When I think black/red, I think to the intense, deep, rich red pigmentation of the tan on black/tan dogs. This is somewhat of a recent phenomenon - mostly brought about by the WGSL breeders breeding for intense black/red color as this was/is favored by the SV show ring in recent years. 

If you go back to the WGSL of a few generations back, you will not see the same intense black/red as is seen nowadays in the show ring. My own older showline female is a black/tan - not black/red and this trait is frequently criticized when we enter SV shows - that is fine by me as I rather look to the whole dog rather than focusing on one particular aesthetic aspect of the dog. I also look to other indications of good pigmentation such as dark nails, dark eyes, good coverage and dark saddle, dark tail tips, dark ears, dark deep coat pigmentation, not many white/light spots on inner thighs and underline, less ticking etc. Color is not the end all be all for me and there are far better indications of pigmentation rather than looking to the cursory black/red color. 

Look here for the evolution from traditionally black/tan dogs to the black/red color that WGSL are frequently known for these days:
Federation Winners
Look at the winners of the 90s, 2000s, and of recent years - very intense rich red color with deep red pigment.
Notice the dogs of the 80s and older - what we would describe as "tan" these days - dogs still with excellent pigmentation, but not "red".


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> I could be wrong, so please correct me if I'm not
> 
> Black and Tan doesn't actually just refer to colour but actually pattern, Black and Red simply means the tan colouring is more of a reddish hue, a Black and Silver (which I think is actually a incorrect term?) simply means the tan colouring is mostly washed out and greyish and so on and so forth. The pattern itself is either a black blanket or saddle black with the tan (brown) colouring on most of the rest of the body
> 
> Just like people with blonde hair, there are *many* shades. One person could say their hair is 'honey blonde' or "strawberry blonde' or 'white blonde' etc, it's all just blonde hair just different descriptions


So Tasha would be a black and tan saddleback with a bitch stripe while Buddy would be a black and tan blanketback? 

It is amazing that dogs who look so different are actually the same color. Buddy has that deep shiny black while Tasha is so colorful.. With the red ears forehead and back and all the shades in between to the almost white undercoat.


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## AdamandEve (Jun 9, 2013)

I think Eve is sable. Sable right?









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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes she is sable, but pigmentation is light - white on paws, color fading, light mask.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I saw a GSD at the dog beach that was the darkest mahogany/brown/red... It's not just the camera/lighting, he was really this dark in person:


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> So Tasha would be a black and tan saddleback with a bitch stripe while Buddy would be a black and tan blanketback?
> 
> It is amazing that dogs who look so different are actually the same color. Buddy has that deep shiny black while Tasha is so colorful.. With the red ears forehead and back and all the shades in between to the almost white undercoat.


Yes, I believe so  It is very confusing sometimes for sure, the coat patterns and colours have fascinated me as there's so many shades!

Poor pigmentation seems to be so common nowadays, probably due mostly to BYB's so I love seeing those true bold colours  It really does make them stand out as GSD's to me


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes - there are certainly some very dark reds out there!

Some examples of good pigment and very red dogs:
Quentino von Arlett
Enosch
VA7 Ghandi von Arlett
Ursus von Woodland
Mentos vom Osterberger-Land
Omen vom Radhaus


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Yes - there are certainly some very dark reds out there!
> 
> Some examples of good pigment and very red dogs:
> Quentino von Arlett
> ...


I really like the one enosch -Urma. Beautiful..

@shade I really wish I could get a good picture of Tasha for you to see. She is a lot redder than my phone makes her look.  ahh wait I had an idea... I borrowed my husbands iphone. I'm still a terrible picture taker but the color is much better.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey Ash, I know the males are supposed to have a more masculine appearance, but some of these males seem to be heading more in the direction of a bear like head? Yes? 

Omen doing protection work (at bottom of his link) I like that they are training in different environments!

Omen vom Radhaus - YouTube






qbchottu said:


> Yes - there are certainly some very dark reds out there!
> 
> Some examples of good pigment and very red dogs:
> Quentino von Arlett
> ...


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes I agree 100% Linda - it's a real problem in conformation: too much of a good thing! Breeding for large heads with heavy heavy bone leading to producing dogs that are tending toward a mastiff type appearance and what is referred to as "coarse" meaning tending towards heavy, rough, bearish, almost barbaric look - deviating a bit too far from that refined, intelligent, expressive, and sentient look that I find appealing in a GSD. I love Rottie heads, but not on my GSD!!

I see this also in the new trend of working line breedings that place special importance on conformation (heavy bone, bear heads, "dark black sable", tending towards oversized) - one such example would be Oskar Milberku - really cool dog but straddles that line of just enough to too much of a good thing. 

Omen is a cool dog but then again he has motivated people behind him! 
I really like Omen and Mentos - two dogs I would go to for pigment, type, temperament, working - especially Mentos.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Yes I agree 100% Linda - it's a real problem in conformation: too much of a good thing! Breeding for large heads with heavy heavy bone leading to producing dogs that are tending toward a mastiff type appearance and what is referred to as "coarse" meaning tending towards heavy, rough, bearish, almost barbaric look - deviating a bit too far from that refined, intelligent, expressive, and sentient look that I find appealing in a GSD. I love Rottie heads, but not on my GSD!!
> 
> I see this also in the new trend of working line breedings that place special importance on conformation (heavy bone, bear heads, "dark black sable", tending towards oversized) - one such example would be Oskar Milberku - really cool dog but straddles that line of just enough to too much of a good thing.
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily think its a new trend. My Buddy has the big block head, large boned and over-sized and he is 11. I'm not in the breeding end of things but with rescue I see a lot of either the big or the really small shepherds there doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground anymore. At least not coming out of California or Nevada.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

shepherdmom - we are referring to the trend in the German SV show ring and beyond


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

I will admit she does have a richer color in those pics. I would still say she is B/T. Whatever color she is she is still a good looking dog. Im sure she is a great dog so thats all that matters.. 


Ps I dont mind a " bitch strip" its kinda of cool not my style but to each his/her own.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree, too much of a good thing, I'm with you (in blue) on that.

Yes I love the way the handler says "ooouuuuttt" with Omen, with such a calm upbeat voice! 



qbchottu said:


> Yes I agree 100% Linda - it's a real problem in conformation: too much of a good thing! Breeding for large heads with heavy heavy bone leading to producing dogs that are tending toward a mastiff type appearance and what is referred to as "coarse" meaning tending towards heavy, rough, bearish, almost barbaric look - deviating a bit too far from that refined, intelligent, expressive, and sentient look that I find appealing in a GSD. I love Rottie heads, but not on my GSD!!
> 
> I see this also in the new trend of working line breedings that place special importance on conformation (heavy bone, bear heads, "dark black sable", tending towards oversized) - one such example would be Oskar Milberku - really cool dog but straddles that line of just enough to too much of a good thing.
> 
> ...


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## CindyT (Jul 15, 2008)

My Lyric is a sable!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yes I love the way the handler says "ooouuuuttt" with Omen, with such a calm upbeat voice!


If I wanted to get a dog done well - they would go to Nicole and Klaus!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Will you please stop posting these links where I cannot stop looking at the videos of training! I gotta get some work done  

Now this dog is a real cutie pie! 

Urmel vom Augrund - YouTube

(p.s. had an early morning horse farm job, set up the track in the field by the barn, aged it while cleaning stalls and then did our AM tracking practice, improving, baby steps and improving.  )



qbchottu said:


> If I wanted to get a dog done well - they would go to Nicole and Klaus!!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Nice work!! Take it day by day - it will come with consistency

Car is kaput so I'm twiddling my thumbs at the dealership - if I'm not getting any work done, I'm bringing you down with me!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

das auto ist kaputt? Got Beir?

LOL! I do have to run though, critters are needing me.

Good luck with the car! Something to keep you occupied for a couple of minutes while you wait. LOL!





 


qbchottu said:


> Nice work!!
> 
> Car is kaput so I'm twiddling my thumbs at the dealership - if I'm not getting any work done, I'm bringing you down with me!!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> shepherdmom - we are referring to the trend in the German SV show ring and beyond


ok I don't watch the shows... I was just talking in general the dogs I see around. The SV is the German registry right? The one that doesn't consider whites to be German Shepherds?


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