# Carrying the sleeve



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Anne's old sleeve thread got me wondering what others think about dogs carrying a sleeve. Why do some people seem to almost obsess over it? What is the purpose?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In beginning foundation work isn't the carrying after winning, to teach the dog to be calm on it, not thrash, kill or constantly chew it?
My dog wants to bring it right back to the helper, he never has been a prancer. A calm deep grip is more what I want to see/prancing it around is a waste of time, IMO.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I thought the purpose of sleeve carrying is to teach the dog to switch between drives (drive channeling), specifically back to prey. With a prey-ish dog that has naturally big, calm, good grip we don't as much. With a more defensive dog with a tendency to get "nasty" with the bite, we do more.


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## ShawnM (Jan 28, 2007)

I let them carry it because it's a prize. It builds confidence. As long as the foundation work is there and a full, calm grip is on the sleeve then it's no harm, no foul. Plus if the dog gets in the habit of thrashing it around, the hard plastic on the top of the sleeve which protects the shoulder can end up knocking the handler in the face when they go to grab it after the out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If a dog does not carry, or maybe carries but has no interest in holding/possession the sleeve so long as there's still an "active" helper there on the field, would you consider that bad/undesireable? I know the chewing and thrashing is not good so we can rule that out of the discussion. I think dogs that are really chewy and thrash around when the sleeve is loose probably show some hectic behavior overall, not just when the sleeve is slipped? Is the goal for a dog to carry and hold indefinitely and/or bring the sleeve back to the helper? What about a dog that immediately spits and charges back at the helper? I guess to me it seems more about the helper both rewarding the behavior and the grip, and conceding the fight to the dog, than the helper giving the sleeve object to the dog to possess as a "win". Also for me personally doing a quick lap gives me about 5 seconds to catch my breath, make sure everything is under control and my lines are in order before whatever comes next and probably gives the helper the same few seconds to regroup.

I see so many people train or not train this aspect I'm really curious about it...


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

IMO, when you say that carrying the sleeve is a reward, you are also saying that your dog would rather run around with the sleeve than engage the helper. Is protection that hard for your dogs that they need a reward for doing it? Shouldn't engaging with the helper be the reward?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> If a dog does not carry, or maybe carries but has no interest in holding/possession the sleeve so long as there's still an "active" helper there on the field, would you consider that bad/undesireable?


Describe "active" helper. What is he doing and where is he when he is doing it?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> IMO, when you say that carrying the sleeve is a reward, you are also saying that your dog would rather run around with the sleeve than engage the helper. Is protection that hard for your dogs that they need a reward for doing it? Shouldn't engaging with the helper be the reward?


That's what I'm wondering. Many people seem to working on carrying and holding a sleeve as much as training a dog to Fuss or bark and hold.



> Describe "active" helper. What is he doing and where is he when he is doing it?


Still near the dog, carrying stick or whip, maybe threatening the dog. If the helper is still near enough to be a threat or acting like a threat, should the dog be holding a sleeve staring at him, dropping a sleeve and barking at the sleeve, trying to get away with the sleeve in his mouth? Shouldn't the dog be ready and wanting to re-engage the second the helper moves in the dog's direction?

Also what about dogs that will carry the sleeve over to the helper or another person like they want to tug? What is going on in the dog's head when that happens?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I have never seen a helper "threaten" the dog while the dog is still has the sleeve in his mouth. Sometimes I have to go and put on the sleeve while the dog still has it but they always tell me to go in as quietly as possible and from the side, with lots of praise. Otherwise, action does not start until the dog drops the sleeve. Just what I've seen so far ...


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## ShawnM (Jan 28, 2007)

Fast said:


> IMO, when you say that carrying the sleeve is a reward, you are also saying that your dog would rather run around with the sleeve than engage the helper. Is protection that hard for your dogs that they need a reward for doing it? Shouldn't engaging with the helper be the reward?


We also have to look at the drive/ temperament of the dogs. I have a couple that would rather run with the sleeve than engage the helper. I also have some that have been pretty dirty at times. I have some that make it look easy. That goes for working, show (german not american) and the occassional Malinois, Schnauzer and Rott. Some dogs are so over the top to go for the helper they need the drive capped with obedience or even a less energetic helper at times. Different dogs have different requirements to get the job done. The biggest issue I see out there is the mentality of helpers training only one "type" of dog. Every dog is different. Showlines usually require more action than a working line. There's many a helper too lazy to even try it. A mal for the most part doesn't need much agitation to get him going. Most real deal working dogs that I've had on the sleeve will immediately spit it and redirect on the helper. Some dogs are just going to be more difficult to get on the sleeve than others. Thats a fact of life. If the dog gains confidence from carrying a sleeve to the car, let him have at it. The dogs job is to have a nice, calm grip to present for the judge. My job is to get the dog to that point with as litle points taken.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Actually, the more serious dogs are really the ones who need to carry and learn to unload that way. That is what it was designed for. The carry and holding of the the sleeve is the relief of pressure and if the helper does not allow that relief, the dog will start to fall apart in other areas of the work. It is just another way to teach the dog that the full, hard bite controls the helper. Like what I talked about in the compulsion thread, the dog has to have a way to get out of the pressure/stress and understand how to control it. The idea is to teach the dog that the full hard grip controls the pressure from the helper. If the helper continues to make a fight/attract the dog, he is telling the dog that he can't control him. That has the effect of making the dog feel weak or helpless.
The more serious dogs have a bigger space and the helper needs to stay back further while the dog holds it. This is so he is not challenging the dog by simply being in that space. Attracting and threatening the dog should happen immediately after the dog drops it but not when he is holding it. Again, you are trying to teach the dog that holding the sleeve controls the helper and in doing that, the dog can have some relief. Like Samba mentioned in one of the last posts in the compulsion thread, when a dog knows he can control the pressure, he becomes more confident.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Anne, what about the dog wanting or not wanting to go back to the helper with the sleeve? Is that something you watch for? Does that tell you anything significant about the dog or the work that precedes it or how the dog is feeling towards the helper?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I personally, do not allow my dogs to go back to the helper with the sleeve. I work them in a certain way that I like and I think that can change the tone a bit in a way that I don't like.

However, as with everything in SchH, it depends HOW the dog is doing that. Talking on a BB just is not the same as watching the dog and talking about it there. I have seen dogs with strong fight drive take it back and kind of beat up the helper with the sleeve. They go up and challenge the helper and kind of demand that the helper put it back on and fight with them. I sure have not seen very many," not confident" dogs doing that, so, it is not a "bad" thing IMO.

I don't let my dogs do it but I have had a couple who have naturally wanted to. I have had others who will hold the sleeve tight and if the helper even rolled an eye to look at them, while still holding it tight, they would shake it...with a , "take that!" kind of attitude. I like that behavior. I want my dogs to view that sleeve like it is a part of the helper and the helper can still feel the dog , even across the field. That is why it is important how the helper behaves, ( and is mindful of the dog's space), as the dog holds or carries it, because the dog is still working and the helper "should" still be working the dog, only in a more passive way. 

When you work the dogs where the sleeve is just a toy, you are not doing protection.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jason L said:


> Anne, what about the dog wanting or not wanting to go back to the helper with the sleeve? Is that something you watch for? Does that tell you anything significant about the dog or the work that precedes it or how the dog is feeling towards the helper?


Yeah I'm wondering about this too.

To me it's interesting how each dog is different once a sleeve is slipped. I'm trying to learn what the behaviors say about the dog. My dog tends to do a quick lap (so I can catch a breath and get my lines untangled) but will drop the sleeve and go after the helper if he's still nearby. Otherwise if I keep the dog moving or he doesn't perceive a threat, he will hold and carry longer, like to the van if I want or maybe set it down and just stand there. I am still learning about my own dog but he seems more interested in a fight than possessing the sleeve, or fighting for the sleeve. If he has the sleeve and the helper approaches, he will lunge and I don't have to tell or force him to out the sleeve to get the work going again. Other dogs I notice want to push the sleeve back at the helper, others want to thrash and rip at it with their claws and teeth, others just drop it and look confused about what to do next, others will stand there chomping on it and stare at the helper.




Thanks for the other insights everyone, very informative.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Liesje said:


> Other dogs I notice want to push the sleeve back at the helper, others want to thrash and rip at it with their claws and teeth, others just drop it and look confused about what to do next, others will stand there chomping on it and stare at the helper.


I also am interested in learning what experienced people think. Most of the dogs in our club will return to the helper, and shove the sleeve at him. But the way they do it varies. Some seem to be "mad" and have learned they can knock the helper about with the sleeve, others come in and seem to be wanting to elicit more play.
Some just take their frustrations out on the sleeve.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Vandal said:


> When you work the dogs where the sleeve is just a toy, you are not doing protection.


Thanks, Anne. That makes sense. I was working a 2 yr old dog last week and we were just starting to introduce more antagonism into the fight with this dog (or at least I - as the rookie helper - was trying to) and the first time I slipped the sleeve the dog did a lap and came right back to me with it and my TD said to me: "See, he still thinks it's a game. THAT shouldn't happen."


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Lies, hope you don't mind if I add a question!

What about the practice of having the dog hold the sleeve, while the handler approaches and cradles the jaw? Purpose?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't mind at all, I have the same question....


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Lies, 
If I had to make an educated guess based on what you say about your dog, I would say that your helper is the problem. He is standing too close and escalating the fight or attraction to the point where the dog will escalate in response and drop the sleeve to go after him. Every dog has a space, the more serious dogs have a larger space and your helper needs to understand where the line of that space is. Like I said in my last post, with the more serious dogs, just standing in the dog's space is an escalation of the fight and compels the dog to drop the sleeve to escalate in return. Does that make sense? I see LOTS of helper's not respecting that space and you can see the various responses to that in the dog. 

Many times, if the dog throws the sleeve down and tries to kill it, the helper has put him too high. It is the pound in a 12 ounze container thing again, ( compulsion thread), where there is too much in the dog to channel and you see these other behaviors as the dog tries to calm down or continues to fight with the helper via the sleeve. Just kind of letting it fall out of their mouth is the other end of the spectrum where the work was not enough. 

There can also be a number of reasons for a dog not wanting to go back to the helper with the sleeve. Could be they are more serious and that is asking too much of the dog at that point in the training. Like I said, it is a "it depends" kind of thing where you have to see the dog and know him.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Holding it is the same purpose . The carry is for dogs who need that carry to help them channel the stress. Remember what I said about teaching the heeling first in the compulsion thread? The movement helps the dog channel. So, if a dog holds it, they may not need to run with it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Jason. if I want a dog to work more serious, I am not doing it with the handler holding him and running afterwards. That work is best done on a pole or fence.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Makes sense but what if it is coming more from the dog than the helper? What I usually see is my dog will humor me by running my little circle but he comes around and pulls me back to the helper not necessarily helper getting in his space (for example, I was just watching some training vids from the winter and see my dog dropping the sleeve and going at the helper while the helper's back is turned or he is just doing something like picking up the stick or adjusting the sleeve) and then the dog drops the sleeve and starts barking at the helper who may or may not be facing him or paying attention at that time. Does that make sense? I guess what I observe is my dog trying to pick a fight. He has always been way more defense than fight, and maybe has a lower threshold though it's pretty contextual (ie, helper can pet my dog or do some obedience with him, dog has never had any issues of lunging/snapping/being aggressive outside of being intentionally provoked or doing bitework).

I'm not trying to change what he does so it doesn't need to be a debate about my dog or helper, just trying to understand these behaviors in general. Some other dogs do more interesting things that I don't really understand, or I see some other helpers really focusing on things that seem less important to me so I'm trying to see what I'm missing.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Anne, is the idea there to keep/maintain the stress level (or at least prevent the dog to get rid of it by doing a lap). So it would be agitate, fight, bite, hold (with handler's help), aus, and then right back to fight so the dog does not have a chance to relax too much?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Lies, 
The reason I am talking about your dog is because you asked the question, not to get into a discussion about your specific helper. I have to say this. When I was trying to figure this stuff out, because it confused the heck out of me at first also. I would read or listen to what the explanation was but maybe still didn't "get it" completely. Then I would go work the dogs or watch the dogs with the explanation in my head and suddenly, it would click. Or, I would work the dog and read the explanation again and then it would become clear. I guess I am trying to say that for me, it took more than a sentence for me to understand it all. Try asking your helper to pay attention and to be further back from the dog and see if it changes anything. Yes, just bending down to get the stick can provoke some dogs. 
Like I said, I think it does matter if the dog can hold it and channel the aggression into the sleeve. It also matters that the dog knows he can control the helper...it matters quite a bit, in my opinion. So, making the adjustments to teach the dog he can do those things without always having to be fighting the helper, matters. If the dog does not understand that he can control the helper, you will see the result of that, might be a grip problem where the dog tries to escalate by moving the grip and usually you will see it with the out later on where the dog won't out or outs and is dirty etc. Why? Because the dog has to feel like he is in control of the fight with his bite before he will be confident enough to out and control with just his bark.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Jason, when I try to bring out the aggression in a dog who doesn't really take it serious, I will do something to disturb him or make him unsure. That will trigger the aggression and then I will channel that in a way that makes the dog confident, while using his aggression. That might be where I show the dog a little bit of submission in response to the aggression. The handler , many times, seems to change the atmosphere with their behavior and attitude, so, I will place the handler in a spot where the dog can still see them, like behind me and off to one side. Then I tell them to shut up and hold still.  Then they are there in a more "passive approval" mode. Also, there is a level of safety for the dog when the handler is standing close and it is harder to disturb them. 

This kind of work requires an attitude in the helper and is mostly mental. There is not lots of motion from the helper because that sends the dog more down the prey attraction path. Stillness will disturb the heck out of most dogs but if you are still and just there in a kind of relaxed state with no tension in your body, the dog won't take you serious. You need that attitude that tells the dog " I am dangerous". It is very much a mental exercise from the helper and it requires patience. You have to wait for the reaction from the dog and resist the urge to help him react. This is certainly not something to teach on a BB, just telling you the idea. You have to see it. for sure, before you try it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

> Anne: Like I said, I think it does matter if the dog can hold it and channel the aggression into the sleeve. It also matters that the dog knows he can control the helper


I had so much trouble with this when working with my serious dog. There was stress in the work because she saw it as real and no one seemed to be able to acknowledge her efforts and build confidence very well. When my son started to work with her, (after he had a few lessons from Anne), we were able to get somewhere with her. He acted as though she really worried him and he was a tentative threat. When she bit the sleeve it was as if she hurt and defeated him. She would then carry the sleeve much better. I wouldn't let him even move while she had that sleeve. She started shaking the sleeve at the helper from a distance ( a clear "take that buster") and even returning for re-engagement. She began to power up from defense to a desire to fight.

The other helpers would keep trying to encourage her to be equipment and prey oriented. She had the prey drive, but it was not about that to her. Only after she learned she had power and could control the helper, did that other drive become available to us for better use.

For the dog who was harder to disturb and not as serious, it took some creativity to put him in a bit more disturbed state. Anne could do it with her own behavior, but we were not so good as that. Sending him through the car after the helper, sending him into a port-a-potty for the guy stuff did disturb him enough to bring out seriousness. It was there, but not without someone who knew how to tap it .

Of course, after this work both of these dogs would bite the threatening helper if he didn't have equipment. Maybe some people don't want that and prefer it be very equipment oriented. 

I wish my son could use that stillness stuff better. Cats get very still and tense when threatened. Two dogs setting up to sparr get very still, tense and serious looking. Dogs do understand that message.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Actually, the more serious dogs are really the ones who need to carry and learn to unload that way. That is what it was designed for.


I agree with that, but my question is specifically about the idea of it being a reward and the philosophy behind that idea.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Holding it is the same purpose . The carry is for dogs who need that carry to help them channel the stress.


I agree with that for some dogs. But *forcing* the dog to hold the sleeve can cause stress also, causing conflict with both the handler and helper.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> Makes sense but what if it is coming more from the dog than the helper? What I usually see is my dog will humor me by running my little circle but he comes around and pulls me back to the helper not necessarily helper getting in his space (for example, I was just watching some training vids from the winter and see my dog dropping the sleeve and going at the helper while the helper's back is turned or he is just doing something like picking up the stick or adjusting the sleeve) and then the dog drops the sleeve and starts barking at the helper who may or may not be facing him or paying attention at that time. Does that make sense?


Yes.

In most cases I would let the dog do what he needs/wants to do. Dogs that need to hold will hold. Those that don't need to hold won't hold. If you try to force the dog to hold, or let go, you will take away the dogs ability to control the situation. And as said above, that can make the dog weaker.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I didn't think you were talking to me about the reward thing and since I don't look at it that way, I will let the person I thought you were directing it to, answer. 

As for forcing a dog to hold it, I don't think I implied you should do that. If I did, maybe you can show me where I did?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> I didn't think you were talking to me about the reward thing and since I don't look at it that way, I will let the person I thought you were directing it to, answer.
> 
> As for forcing a dog to hold it, I don't think I implied you should do that. If I did, maybe you can show me where I did?


Sorry. I was just using your post as a jumping off point.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

But many people force the dog to hold and I wanted to address that.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have only seen that done once and I am talking about where when the dog started to drop it, the handler started correcting the dog like a force retrieve. The people I watched doing that thought that would work. Actually, there is kind of the same element to that when you apply enough pressure as the helper. It has the effect of making the dog want to hold it to relieve the stress but the helper has to create a clear distinction by stopping the stress when the dog bites. I sure would not be trying what they were doing. Not no way, not no how.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think I've seen anyone force the hold, but I've seen people do foundation work that seems to focus so much on carrying and holding the sleeve when often there's other obvious problems with the dog's work or how the dog is being worked. To me it seems you can see what a dog wants to do naturally and let those behaviors clue you in to how the dog should be worked and their strengths/weaknesses but not necessarily focus on having all the dogs carry and hold the same way, if that makes sense? You would change how the dog is worked to change the holding behavior, not force a certain behavior?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

So you guys have never seen someone holding the dog by the lower jaw while the dog is holding the sleeve?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> I agree with that, but my question is specifically about the idea of it being a reward and the philosophy behind that idea.


That is part of my question as well. To some it seems the sleeve itself is some kind of reward. I guess at the most basic level I see bitework as the dog learning to bring power and confidence and fight to diffuse a threat, and the training, foundation, secondary obedience is all about showing the dog the acceptable ways to do that job, so to me the "reward" would be that the dog has won a little bit at a time, not won the actual sleeve but won that fight and controlled that threat.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> So you guys have never seen someone holding the dog by the lower jaw while he is holding the sleeve?


Yes I see it a lot but not anyone forcing a hold. The people I see who do this have dogs that hold calm naturally so they cradle the dog or support the dog under the chin. They are just encouraging that behavior. I sometimes do it with my dog when we play. He'll hold a toy in his mouth after a good round of tug or fetch and I'll praise him calmly and rub his chin and chest.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> You would change how the dog is worked to change the holding behavior, not force a certain behavior?


Yes, and in my experience, when the dog is worked right, you don' have to focus on holding or carrying. That is because the dog will do it without all that work, if the helper knows how to work that dog. I tell helpers I am training to watch what the dog does when they slip it because it is like a report card on whether the work was right for that dog. Some need more prey work, some more pressure, the helper to keep distance etc but it all adds up in a way that results in the dog holding it when it is slipped. Of course, the handler plays into this as well. Some are really talented at making it a contest between them and the dog for the sleeve and the dog will thrash it, drop it etc, because of what they are doing.
I think if you asked the people putting all that effort into it what the hold is for, many will not know the answer. They have seen dogs doing it, so, they think their dog should too. This is one reason I tell people who do not do helper work to try to understand the ideas behind protection work as much as possible. You need to understand as much as the helper to be able to be part of good training. 

Also, you are right, not all dogs should hold it the same way or for the same amount of time etc. It depends on what is going on in the training. If you want more drive in the work because that dog is a little "sleepy", the dog should be asked to out it much sooner than a dog who needs to unload more because he is more aggressive and so on.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

> I think if you asked the people putting all that effort into it what the hold is for, many will not know the answer. They have seen dogs doing it, so, they think their dog should too.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm reading Gary Patterson's book "Schutzhund Protection Training" at the moment and this is what he says about carrying (just quoting as a reference, not implying it's right just because it came from a book )

_Carrying has a limited, but important part in bite training. It is done after every bite until the dog starts to reach the drive shaping level. With defense dogs, it continues even past that point and becomes an important part of the channeling process. During carrying, the dog's drive diminishes which aids us in achieving some of our goals for this level. Immediately after the helper releases the rag or the sleeve, the handler starts to jog in a large circle. The handler keeps the lead short, holding the dog's head up while running, preventing it from getting the sleeve or rag on the ground to reposition the bite. When first starting to run, make the dog go slightly parallel to the position of the helper and not immediately away from him. If the dog is thinking too much about where the helper is located, it often drops the rag (**I believe this was Anne's point about helper giving space**)... Some dogs, especially defense dogs, have early problems carrying. There is nothing wrong with this as it is part of the behavior we are attempting to modify. This perhaps makes more sense if we examine what happens during carrying

When the helper drops the rag/sleeve, the dog starts running without getting a chance to reposition the bite by getting the article on the ground. It has no choice but to hold on tightly during the carry or drop it. During the carry, drive is going down, so the dog, in the beginning, is learning to keep a good bite, even though its drive is diminishing. With defense dogs,we have already seen how they may have problems doing this. The reason the defense dog cannot carry the rag/sleeve is it cannot get out of defense into prey._


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Samba wrote: 


> The other helpers would keep trying to encourage her to be equipment and prey oriented. She had the prey drive, but it was not about that to her. Only after she learned she had power and could control the helper, did that other drive become available to us for better use.


 
This is a really excellent point and I see this also. Doesn't get you anywhere. You have to work in the drive the dog wants to work in and then the rest follows.


Samba wrote:



> I wish my son could use that stillness stuff better. Cats get very still and tense when threatened. Two dogs setting up to sparr get very still, tense and serious looking. Dogs do understand that message


. 

Those situations I have always considered when I work dogs. It is another excellent example. I also mimic the behavior of people who are afraid of dogs, they do the same stiff, tense, frozen behavior. Lots of people get their dogs protection trained for free by those people . 
Anne


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Fast said:


> So you guys have never seen someone holding the dog by the lower jaw while the dog is holding the sleeve?


Yes, I have seen this done.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Who is the someone? The helper or the handler?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I should clarify. I have seen it done by both handler and helper.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Vandal said:


> I also mimic the behavior of people who are afraid of dogs, they do the same stiff, tense, frozen behavior. Lots of people get their dogs protection trained for free by those people .
> Anne


Oh my, just laughed out loud!

As to the holding, I see helpers and handlers doing this, cradling the jaw and with some dogs trying to hold it shut on the sleeve. I asked one of our helpers, and he said it was to promote a calm grip.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I might, on occassion, stroke a dog on the head for a second when he is holding it but I can't reall a time I tried to hold their mouth shut on the sleeve. The stroke on the head is not simply to calm the dog either.
That is kind of amusing, I mean if you really think about whether this is protection training.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I started wondering about it as the one time a helper tried that with my older male, he almost lost his fingers.

My young dog is on hold for bitework until he is a bit older, but I watch training and it seems like a TON of time is spent on the "cradle" exercise, so I was/am genuinely curious as to the reasons.

Anne- What is the stroke on the head for?


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

> In most cases I would let the dog do what he needs/wants to do. Dogs that need to hold will hold. Those that don't need to hold won't hold.


 I have one dog of each of these scenario's-Zisso will drop the sleeve as soon as he knows we are headed back to the truck. Nadia will carry it all the way into her crate, but will allow me to take it easily as she gets comfy. To me, it is building her confidence in ways I never thought possible. For Z, he has won, is going to rest & really doesn't want to bother taking it with him.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> What is the stroke on the head for?


It is a subtle form of pressure.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Fast said:


> So you guys have never seen someone holding the dog by the lower jaw while the dog is holding the sleeve?


I've seen helpers do this if the dog's grip is chewy. Thought being that if he can't move his lower jaw, his grip can't move while on the sleeve.

This has been a great discussion as we have a debate going on now at our club between two helpers.. one believing a dog must hold the sleeve calmly after it's slipped. One believing that it's not that important.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think the dog should be rewarded to carry the sleeve if they don't have a deep bite. I watched a recent FB video and the dog hadn't had a deep bite one single time, yet the helper continued to slip the sleeve. This dog has a SchH1 title, I was a bit surprised to see this video and how they were working the dog, maybe they were working on a particular issue, but it was a bit odd to watch.

I've seen the helper stroke the dogs muzzle, eye area with a bit of pressure to get the dog to regrip, if the bite wasn't deep.
If a dog starts chewing when holding after the carry, the handler should command the dog to out it.


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## ShawnM (Jan 28, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think the dog should be rewarded to carry the sleeve if they don't have a deep bite. I watched a recent FB video and the dog hadn't had a deep bite one single time, yet the helper continued to slip the sleeve. This dog has a SchH1 title, I was a bit surprised to see this video and how they were working the dog, maybe they were working on a particular issue, but it was a bit odd to watch.
> 
> I've seen the helper stroke the dogs muzzle, eye area with a bit of pressure to get the dog to regrip, if the bite wasn't deep.
> If a dog starts chewing when holding after the carry, the handler should command the dog to out it.


A lot depends on the dog and also what the handler wants. Some handlers don't care about deep grips or even points really. Sometimes it could be they're under a timeframe. Some folks don't care about the "protection" side. They want the dog on the sleeve and off the sleeve when commanded. It's a sport and for some their livelihood. I'm not saying it's right and I wouldn't personally reward a crappy grip but there's usually a circumstance behind it. It could even be a poor helper. I've seen Sch 1 dogs come from Germany and know nothing but a whole lot of defense. Sometimes the helper will slip the sleeve simply because the dog is starting to bite and that could be huge progress in the training. Sometimes in that instance it's best to go back to the pillow/ rag and return to basics. Each helper does his own thing and hopefully brings the best out of the dog. The best thing is to always ask the helper who's working the dog to explain what he did and why once the session is over.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If the helper has the dog counter to get a better grip, it will teach the dog that is what is needed to win the sleeve. 
To slip it when the dog isn't biting deep isn't teaching the dog, IMO. I agree, when starting out you reward for even a bark, though having a pup counter is good to do if they are biting shallow. 
But a SchH1 dog is what I was referring to in the video I watched.... couldn't ask the helper or handler, I didn't want to offend the handler by asking what it was about.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Who is the someone? The helper or the handler?


The handler.


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## ShawnM (Jan 28, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> If the helper has the dog counter to get a better grip, it will teach the dog that is what is needed to win the sleeve.
> To slip it when the dog isn't biting deep isn't teaching the dog, IMO. I agree, when starting out you reward for even a bark, though having a pup counter is good to do if they are biting shallow.
> But a SchH1 dog is what I was referring to in the video I watched.... couldn't ask the helper or handler, I didn't want to offend the handler by asking what it was about.


 
Understand. I had always heard of midnight trials and how some dogs get titles they don't deserve. I was disheartened to see that it does happen quite often. I've even done helper work to get Schutzhund titled dogs to bite  I'm not sure about the dog in the video but maybe that dog is one of those with an undeserved title?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> To slip it when the dog isn't biting deep isn't teaching the dog, IMO.



I think you are only looking at one dimension of protection. The grip is not the Holy Grail of schutzhund! There are other facets that you MUST be aware of. Most dogs have more than one problem in protection. For example a dog might have problems coming into the correct drive state and poor grips. If you get the dog into the correct drive state the dog will be working better overall and the grips might come. So I might reward the dog even though the grips were not perfect.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fast said:


> I think you are only looking at one dimension of protection. The grip is not the Holy Grail of schutzhund! There are other facets that you MUST be aware of. Most dogs have more than one problem in protection. For example a dog might have problems coming into the correct drive state and poor grips. If you get the dog into the correct drive state the dog will be working better overall and the grips might come. So I might reward the dog even though the grips were not perfect.


I'm aware of that, and that is why I stated they could have been working on something that I didn't see. 
I know the grip isn't the "holy grail" but rewarding over and over when you could have the dog counter to bite deeper before slipping would make sense(in the video I watched). 
Though I am not a helper and a newb to the sport, but I do know there is sooooo much to every phase~ it is overwhelming.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Getting a little off topic but I always struggle with grip. For one, it's hard for me to *see* what's going on when my dog is working, at my angle and distance. If my DH comes along I always have him video the session so I can watch it back. Sometimes I wish someone else could work my dog and I could just watch up close! I also have trouble seeing when the dog is really in fight drive and when the grip is not only correct but is really hard. I can tell the dog is biting deep and not slipping or munching on the sleeve but that's about it. The helper will say when the dog is biting well (or not well), but usually unless there is something obviously wrong with the grip and/or presentation I have trouble spotting these things myself and knowing where to work the dog from there. I feel like I see more with my dog's barking/guarding behavior and often want to work on this or that but might miss where he did something else really well or maybe showed a worse issue to the helper that I didn't catch. I'm all for being my dog's advocate and being in control of our program but there are some aspects where I just trust the helpers because I'm still piecing together what I'm seeing.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> I just trust the helpers because I'm still piecing together what I'm seeing.


I think even the most experienced handlers have to learn to trust. You simply can't work both ends of the leash and have the best results.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Liesje said:


> ...I also have trouble seeing when the dog is really in fight drive and when the grip is not only correct but is really hard. I can tell the dog is biting deep and not slipping or munching on the sleeve but that's about it...


Lies, I know what you mean. There are some dogs in our club that it is easy to see the fight, prey, and defense, but I don't always see it in Bison. I had the opportunity once to have someone else post him then I stood right behind the helper and watched over his shoulder. Having the benefit of seeing him from the front helped. 



> I have seen dogs with strong fight drive take it back and kind of beat up the helper with the sleeve. They go up and challenge the helper and kind of demand that the helper put it back on and fight with them. I sure have not seen very many," not confident" dogs doing that, so, it is not a "bad" thing IMO.


Question for Anne:
I know your statement here wasn't ment to be all inclusive. I wonder if this behavior can also be used with high prey drive. The dog learns that the sleeve is only moves when the helper is holding it.

General question:
I wonder how much the dogs view the sleeve as what they and the helper are fighting over not as a prey object, but as the reason for the altercation.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think most dogs who do that have a good amount of prey drive, so, that could certainly be the case with some dogs. 

When you are someone like me, who has witnessed show dog helpers using tripe to keep the dog from leaving the helper after the out, you realize that ANYTHING is possible in SchH.


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## ShawnM (Jan 28, 2007)

Vandal said:


> When you are someone like me, who has witnessed show dog helpers using tripe to keep the dog from leaving the helper after the out, you realize that ANYTHING is possible in SchH.


 
Helpers are a creative bunch and yes, anything is indeed possible in Schutzhund. I started in working line GSD's and now do both working and highlines and the tripe statement made me laugh.  Especially since you called out the show dog helpers who are of course the most handsomest and evenly gaited of all the helpers. :blush:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

:wild: 

Sometimes the showdog helpers have to work much harder to bring out the drive in the SL.

Obviously, if they have to stuff tripe in the sleeve!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Amy, start having someone video your rounds. Have them stand in a way that they can see both what the helper is doing and the dog.. We now try to video the majority of our rounds. The videos can be most revealing. I see things that I am doing that are affecting my dog along with what the helper is doing and how that affects my dog. It is a great way to learn for those on both sides of the leash.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Jane, 
They just hand it to them.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I agree with the video, we use that alot also.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Vandal said:


> Jane,
> They just hand it to them.


 You mean the dog doesn't have to _work_ for it, it is just _shown_ the tripe? LOL!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Anne is the one that got me started video taping. It is amazing what you catch that you don't even realize you are doing. I have also had my OB rounds taped. I can be very very picky about OB and seeing my rounds helps me see what needs work and what I am over analyzing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Taping is great, and the flip videocamera's are so easy to use.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks for the suggestion, Lisa. That is one of those “well, duh” moments. Why didn’t I think of that before? I have DH shopping on line for a video camera.

Thanks for the response, Anne. I was just trying to think through what I have seen Bison do. (If I had a video, it would be easier. J) He doesn’t want to circle too much after the sleeve is slipped. He isn’t one of those dogs that likes to show off the sleeve. He does the circling because I tell him to, then he either lays down and waits for me to out him (he has learned from repletion that is how he can start the activity again) or he goes back to the helper.

I have seen other dogs in the club run back to the helper and slam the sleeve into them like they are picking a fight. Bison’s behavior is a bit different. He wants to run back to the helper with the sleeve, but doesn’t approach all the way. He stands with it tight in his mouth about 2 -3 feet away and stares at him. Occasionally, he will approach the helper, but it isn’t with the intensity that the other dogs do. I am not sure how to read that. Hence the question about the prey drive.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have seen more serious dogs behave as you have described but without knowing your dog, I can't say why he does that. I prefer that behavior over the other but I like a certain kind of dog. Again, I am not saying the other behavior is "bad" and I think training plays into that as well. But, I know there are dogs who would never even consider taking the sleeve to the helper. The rest of what the dog does kind of tells the story about what drive the dog prefers to work in etc.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> The rest of what the dog does kind of tells the story about what drive the dog prefers to work in etc.


I would like to hear more about that. Are you talking about other behaviors with carrying the sleeve or just in general? If just in general, maybe I should start a new thread to discuss. 

I think if I had some more examples of what the drives looks like on other dogs during protection, it might be easier for me to pick it out on my own.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Anne is the one that got me started video taping. It is amazing what you catch that you don't even realize you are doing. I have also had my OB rounds taped. I can be very very picky about OB and seeing my rounds helps me see what needs work and what I am over analyzing.


I need my OB taped often because typically what I feel is not correct looks not so bad but there is something else worse that I'm not noticing!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Vandal said:


> But, I know there are dogs who would never even consider taking the sleeve to the helper.


Mine would be one, lol. Toys/balls...yes, he will always take them back and push them into you or lay the string in your hand (or whoever is around...if I ignore him he moves on to the next person to sucker into playing) but sleeve, never.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Are you talking about other behaviors with carrying the sleeve or just in general?


In general.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I am working a show line dog at the moment who sounds very similar to yours Lies. We had to go back and work a bit on the holding and carrying, so he understood the sleeve was "still me". He is a more serious dog and not the level of prey drive working dogs have but there is something else missing as well. if he stood up to the pressure a little better, I might like the dog more. He also looked TERRIBLE using motivational methods , so, we put a pinch on him and I worked him a couple of times to teach him the behaviors in heeling and now his handler is doing it. The dog looks VERY good with that kind of work. These behaviors and temperament characteristics cross over between phases. You might have to think about what I am saying there for a minute until I think of a better way to put it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think I know what you are saying.... My dog always seems to perform better when he is off balance, if that makes sense. I use a pinch a lot for heeling, not so much for correction but it helps load him up if I make it sort of like a play-conflict between us. The motivational/toy methods work but eventually he seems to plateau. Good heeling for him is not the happy, prancy kind but more of an edgy, pushy kind (I'm not talking about position like crowding me but just the vibe from the dog or between us). He gets a little too complacent and needs that pressure from me to go from just doing nice obedience to showing more power and drive in that phase. It seems for us, a little bit of the right sort of "conflict" often does good rather than harm. It happens more in the proofing phase than training, typically I train a new behavior very methodically and calmly often with food rewards and marker type training but once he learns the correct behavior we up the ante as far as drive, speed, power and he needs some pressure. However there are a few things I did train with compulsion/escape from the beginning. The retrieve and the stand out of motion obedience exercises are where I've not done compulsion but I think I could have. 

My working line dog - totally different, almost the exact opposite as far as what motivates her, what shuts her down, what type of attitude brings out the drive.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Vandal said:


> I agree with the video, we use that alot also.


We video tape every single training session... it reveals alot and helps me as a handler improve. It's nice going back through them sometimes and seeing the progress, especially when you feel you aren't moving forward quick enough.


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