# Serious Unprovoked aggression



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm posting this for the benefit of anyone who may encounter similar problems. 

I'll give you a short rundown of the problems we've had /having with our 6 year old unneutered male GSD (Jake) 

We had him from a rescue centre when he was just 5 years old. He was being rehomed because his original owner (the mother of a volunteer at the centre) had moved from a Pub to a flat, and couldn't exercise him much and didn't think it was fair on him. 

That's the story we were told, whether that was the whole truth, we couldn't be sure. The son of the owner certainly seemed very genuine and didn't hide anything from us, as far as we are aware. He even admitted they exercised him by shining a laser light on the floor for he to chase after GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

As a result he has major OCD with lights and shadows. 

We took Jake home, and couldn't believe our luck. He was absolutely wonderful. He was well trained, very friendly, playful, great with people and had clearly been well looked after and not mistreated in any way. The only problem we had was he pulled like crazy on the leash - and with training that was soon sorted. Everything was great.

Then one evening, two weeks after we rehomed him , suddenly from nowhere, seriously nowhere, he attacked our 12 year old granddaughter, and I do mean attacked. 

At first, without question we decided we had to have him put to sleep. But once we'd all calmed down, the anger and upset was replaced with a need to understand how such a wonderful dog could do such a thing, and none of us (including our granddaughter) really wanted him pts, and we all tried to understand why...... there must be a reason - we must have done something wrong - or missed something ---But What? . 

We decided to do nothing in haste, just make sure he was either muzzled or kept away from people.

For the next few days, Jake was a little subdued, and we went over and over the incident to see were we could have possibly gone wrong................ Had we overwhelmed him with new people, new food , new house, and an unfortunate accident he had during the first week ...so may questions!!! But no answers to really explain why he would attack without any warning at all.

But then Jake exhibited this really bizarre behaviour, as though he was intensely terrified of some invisible entity. 

Following this episode the dog forum I was a member of - positively.com - advised that he needed a vet as they thought it could be epilepsy. 

Although unsure, without a CT scan or an MRI (which we just could not afford) , the vet prescribed phenobarbital to see if would help. She also advised seeing a behaviourist. Now, call me arrogant if you like, but I knew it wasn't a behaviour problem, we'd owned enough dogs over the years to know this was something different. 

The medication appeared to work, and he returned to his usual self. Don't get me wrong he still had what I can only describe as absences, but no really bizarre behaviour or aggression.

He was gradually reintroduced to people he would see regularly (not the children) 

Everything was going well until our usual vet emigrated, and the new one decided "weird and aggressive" behaviour was not epilepsy and decided to wean him off his medication. 

Major mistake !!! He then attacked our adult daughter as she played with him. The original medication has now been reinstated, and he is not allowed near anyone, apart from me and the OH, even though there have been no aggressive incidents since - he has growled but nothing more. 

I'm not going to pretend I'm never nervous of him, and deep down I think perhaps we should have had him pts. but my OH won't even consider it.. But I am also pretty good at spotting when things are not quite right with him, and luckily on these occasions he keeps away from us on his own accord. These ocassion are such a tiny, tiny part of him, and he is so lovely it's easy to forget he's got a problem at all.

We have now been in touch with Dr. Jean Dodds (a specialist in thyroid disorders) and we are going to send blood samples to her for analysis, incase he also has an underlying thyroid problem. 

I have now also temporarily stopped using cleaning products and we are very careful with his diet, incase he is allergic to anything. It has only just occured to us (thick or what?) that this has only happened since we've had him, it could be something we use that the previous owner didn't. 

I'm glad we decided to do nothing in haste, because Jake is such a wonderful dog - just a wonderful dog with a problem, that I hope we can solve.

PS: I will also post in the sticky thread "Medical Reasons for Aggression" section of the forum.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

When he attacks--does he bark or growl or otherwise warn first? Does he bite hands or faces or just whatever is nearest? Does he circle the person or is he going straight in? Is it in sunlight or bright light and is it possible that there is a reflection (like a watch crystal) hitting this person? 

Is he causing damage/injuries? Puncture wounds or rips or just bruises? How do the attacks end?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. I hope you can find a cause and solution.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Rage syndrome? 
I hope you can find some help with Dr Dodds test results.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Jakes Mom, I am completely blown away by how much you've done for Jake...to keep him from being put down or rehomed again...and taking measures to keep others safe while you continue to work to solve the problem. I'm amazed by you.

I think you've made some excellent points and provided information that will be helpful to all of us. Along with the different medical conditions that could cause aggression in our wonderful animals but how you have to trust your gut and not always follow what the Vet advises. Thank you.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

BlackthornGSD said:


> When he attacks--does he bark or growl or otherwise warn first? Does he bite hands or faces or just whatever is nearest? Does he circle the person or is he going straight in? Is it in sunlight or bright light and is it possible that there is a reflection (like a watch crystal) hitting this person?
> 
> Is he causing damage/injuries? Puncture wounds or rips or just bruises? How do the attacks end?


 
The first time he seriously attacked, we had no warning at all, he just gave this one incredible growly bark, lifted his lips, opened his mouth wide and went in, couldn't get a good grip, backed off slightly and went in to get a better grip. This happened in the space of less than one second and I was inches away and could do nothing to stop him. 

As for the lighting ...The hall light was off but the kitchen light was on and it happened in the doorway. 

Luckily he went for the front thigh, and as she was wearing very thick tight jeans, injuries were limited to deep punture wounds and severe bruising and scratches.

The second serious attack was when the daughter was playing ball with him. They'd been playing for a few minutes, and she'd just tossed the ball to him, but he didn't catch it and made no attempt to pick it up, so she picked it up and went to toss it again. But instead of catching the ball he attacked her exactly as above but without the bark first.

Luckily, the second time, the daughter was also wearing tight jeans and Jake's weight knocked her back and despite his very best efforts to get a good grip she escaped with severe bruising. 

Thank goodnes he didn't go for their hands, arms or face. 

I'd say the lighting was average, as for a reflection, that's a good question ....and I don't know the answer. 

As for how the attacks end ........that's a really good question. The first time I recall going to grab his collar to pull him off... but then reminding myself "no, don't pull, I could pull a chunk of flesh out" (stange, but I remembered reading that somewhere). By this time my OH had realised something major was happening and was by us too. 
I remember saying firmly "Jake, NO". Next thing the OH (John) was belting Jake and I threw him out. I thought John had got him off, but he thought I had. We have gone over and over it, and we_ think_ Jake must have stopped himself. 

The second time, we all tried to recall exactly what happened. I remember shouting "Jake NO". I certainly didn't pull him, and my OH went to hit him on the nose, but doesn't remember actually doing it, so we think he must have stopped himself then as well. 

Quite honestly, if I hadn't witnessed it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed it. You hear of these things, and always think "well they must have done something to make them attack like that" 

You live and learn.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

It sounds like epilepsy.. The movement from dark to light, sudden movements of the ball are all things that can set him off. The "absenses".. My mother's dog had seizures due to stress and over excitement. When she would get stressed or over stimulated, she would lock up and fall over. She wasn't shaking or showing signs of a seizure, but when we videoed it and showed it to the Vet, she agreed that it was a seizure. When she came out of the seizures, she was very confuses as to what happened. She would also just "go somewhere else" in her head and stare at nothing. You couldn't get her attention if you held a hotdog in her face. She was playing with her ball and got very excited when we went to throw it. It was almost like a fainting goat. Really bizzare..
He may have no control over his reactions during the seizure and just lashing out. It's unfortunate and I hope you find a solution to Jake's problem. Poor guy.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for answering my questions. I'm so sorry you and Jake are having to deal with it. It must have been very disturbing experiences for everyone.

I agree--it seems likely to be seizure related--and it's good that seems to have responded to the phenobarb.

The other thing I was thinking of was something like a brain tumor--I had a friend whose dog started having unexplained moments of aggression--although he didn't attack--he froze up and started growling in her face. Then he went blind overnight. He was 4 or 5 years old. She ended up having to euthanize him and their best guess was that he had a brain tumor.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Thank you all so much for your good wishes, very much appreciated.

cheno&Reno.

Yes you've got the idea. We were even beginning to think we'd got a ghost. 

BlackthornGSD

Unfortunately the cost of CT scans and MRI's are just so expensive, and even if there is problem with a tumor eg. the chance of fixing it are so remote it's not really worth it, unless you have insurance. NO chance of that with Jake's history.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jakes mom, did you read the link I posted? Interesting info in it.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Jakes mom, did you read the link I posted? Interesting info in it.


 
Yes thank you very much onyx'girl.

I don't think it's rage syndrome as such, because he has responded fairly well to epilepsy drugs. But as sudden unprovoked aggression is rare, I wish I could find somebody we could take Jake to who's studying it, I've searched the web, but can't find anything. 

As I can more or less tell now when he's not right he could make an interesting subject, especially as most dogs end up being euthanised as they are too dangerous to be around. (I know that's a strong possibility with Jake). 

It may help us and or help other dogs in the future. 

If anyone does know of anyone I'd love to here from you. 

I live in England. 

Thanks Sue


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I would put him down....I don't mean that maliciously, but I think he is an accident waiting to happen, and somebody is going to suffer severe physical or emotional damage. Otherwise you have to dope him up to point of non quality life. Some things are not meant to be....if he hurts somebody badly in future, you cannot in good faith say you didn't know this was highly possible. Err on the side of caution....JMO.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> *Everything was going well until our usual vet emigrated, and the new one decided "weird and aggressive" behaviour was not epilepsy and decided to wean him off his medication. *
> 
> Major mistake !!! He then attacked our adult daughter as she played with him. The original medication has now been reinstated, and he is not allowed near anyone, apart from me and the OH, even though there have been no aggressive incidents since - he has growled but nothing more.


Make sure he keeps taking that medication and if you really want to keep him you will have to keep him away from others and supervise him closely at all times.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I would put him down....I don't mean that maliciously, but I think he is an accident waiting to happen, and somebody is going to suffer severe physical or emotional damage. Otherwise you have to dope him up to point of non quality life. Some things are not meant to be....if he hurts somebody badly in future, you cannot in good faith say you didn't know this was highly possible. Err on the side of caution....JMO.


I agree with Cliff. It's not the dogs fault but he has already put puncture wounds in your daughter. What if her face had been closer instead of her leg. I say this whenever I see one of these threads. It's not worth someone being seriously injured.

It's very unfortunate but there will always be a question mark with this dog.

I should have said grand daughter.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I also agree with Cliff.
Sometimes...it's the most humane thing to do, for ALL parties involved.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

jakes mom said:


> We have now been in touch with Dr. Jean Dodds (a specialist in thyroid disorders) and we are going to send blood samples to her for analysis, incase he also has an underlying thyroid problem.


Hope you get some answers! Be careful in the meantime!!


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I would put him down....I don't mean that maliciously, but I think he is an accident waiting to happen, and somebody is going to suffer severe physical or emotional damage. Otherwise you have to dope him up to point of non quality life. Some things are not meant to be....if he hurts somebody badly in future, you cannot in good faith say you didn't know this was highly possible. Err on the side of caution....JMO.


That would be my approach too.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Has this dog ever attacked you or your husband? If not (did I miss it?) then it's not epilepsy. The very idea that it's seizures would indicate an inability to control who or where the dog bit.

That said, I agree. I almost said so last night then felt it might hurt your feelings.
All I can think of is you, walking on eggs, making sure the dog doesn't come into contact with anyone else, and being slightly terrified he may do the same to you.

And how much better and more calm and peaceful your life will be when you have a dog without these issues.
Nobody would blame you for putting this dog to sleep. Well some might but guess what? They are not in your shoes, they are not in your home, they are not buying this dog's food and medication and until they do, they have no right to tell you what to do with your dog. 

I know you came here for help. That's exactly what I'd tell you if I was there, and it's exactly what I would do if this was my own dog.
Life is too short to be so stressed out and afraid of a creature living in your home.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Aw Jake's mom. I'm sorry for you and Jake.
The previous owner's may not have known. Sometimes "rage syndrome" or whatever the term is comes on later. The lazer pen did not help definitely. 
I've only read a chapter in a book that touched on it. But, the OCD behavior and the sudden rage epsisodes have been linked to the same area in the brain that controls the seizures. Or, better put it is a seizure.
I can't believe that the new vet hadn't heard of this; and removed the meds.

I have a dog that has seizures and I used to worry about these turning bad at some point. I now just worry about if she clusters and doesn't stop. I almost had to say goodbye in Oct. 2011. 
I would have to agree with the other members here: Cliffson1, Robin, Jack's Dad and the others.
It would not be a quality of life for my dog, and the liability of danger wouldn't be in it's best interest. To isolate a pack animal for fear of rages/explosive uncontrolled aggression doesn't seem right to me. My dog would not be happy and wouldn't have much life.
Once again, I am so sorry for you. I wish there was something I could do or say to make it better for you.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Hello. Let me tell you about Dakota. I got Dakota when I was 13. He was a very sleepy puppy and shortly after we got him (7weeks old) he became grumpy. He would raise his lip at me and growl. He then progressed to do this to others in the house. My father, after a few months of having him, said " there's something not right in that dog's head."

Being 13, I dismissed it. At the age of 3 Dakota began having grand mal seizures (however, before this I believe he had some petites that we disregarded at the time..) It all makes sense now. There is something wrong in his brain. -- Now, Dakota has never attacked anyone BUT he is a very low energy dog. He did however snap at a neighbor kid who pet him (our mistake) and he did scratch my sister's face (swatted her.) He is afraid of new people for no reason-- he was socialized up until it became evident that it wasn't a good idea. 
Anyway here is my advice: Keep him on phenobarbitol. See about possibly adding potassium bromide, or switching the drugs, because the potassium has done wonders for dakota (however, he was having SERIOUS issues due to seizures, not from biting.) I would recommend keeping your dog away from people outside the household and vets (you can walk him if he is under control, just don't let people pet him.) Have children, and anyone he happens to not be fond of ( in my case it is my autistic sister) back off. Not to say they can never interact, just only on the dogs terms (this works for Dakota (although, I wouldn't let dakota near a child, but that isn't really relevant for us.) I would not recommend euthanizing this animal. If this is not something you can or are willing to handle ( it is a lot to handle: physically, mentally, emotionally...) then you should look for a no kill shelter to help him out. 

Dakota is loving, smart, and a great dog. He just is crabby and you have to be vigilant with people touching him ( as in, you have to tell people (adults) NO you cannot touch him... and then when they do anyway and he growls you have to tell them again that he has bitten and will likely bite again. some people never learn. luckily, dakota seems to just growl now)


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. You sound like a wonderful person for adopting this dog, and then bravely going through his issues.

However, an unprovoked attack on a child that led to deep punctures...as well as another attack...he really is a disaster waiting to happen. 

I hate seeing these sort of threads. 

I would personally put this dog to sleep-his quality of life is guarded at best, and you will have to walk on egg shells around him for the rest of his life. 

He must either be put down, or you will have a big management issue and liability.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I don't have anything to add, but best of luck. I was a nervous wreck when my dog was going through these issues. I think I know what caused it, and why it is now resolved...and I'm thankful it is gone, but I understand the fear you have living with a dog like that. Sympathy hugs all around and well-wishes. I hope you and Jake get something worked out that solves his issues.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

As somebody who has had to put a dog down due to huge aggression issues, and another dog down due to seizures which involved biting... I can relate to how hard this is. I'd just like you to know that if your choice is to euthanize him (and it will be a kindness if you do), and anybody tries to make you feel bad, you march right back over here and talk to us, because we'll set you straight. It is NOT your fault, you did NOT cause this, and you have done everything and more than most people would do. 

That being said, if you choose to keep him on meds and give it more time, just make sure you are very away that faces can NEVER EVER be close to this dog, and try to make sure you always have some way to block or get the dog away from biting you during one of the seizures. You are the only ones living with the dog, and the ones who ultimately have to decide if the quality of life he has is worth the 'hassles' you have to go through. I'd be extremely careful about allowing other people around him though, the liability could be huge for you.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

*If* it were seizures couldn't he just attack anyone including yourself? 
I agree with Cliff and others.....as hard as it is.....it would be kinder to PTS.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

sparra said:


> *If* it were seizures couldn't he just attack anyone including yourself?
> I agree with Cliff and others.....as hard as it is.....it would be kinder to PTS.


 
One of the cases I read about was a Chesapeke Bay Retriever putting his 100 pound owner in the hospital. 
She didn't see it coming as she was at a sink watching dishes. That is a distinct possibility of this kind of seizure activity--owner/human aggression. Most dogs don't lean towards such forward aggression without a clear reason or training. Definitely not companion dogs.
It's not a common type of seizure activity, so the second vet (in Jake's case) probably blew it off.
Unfortunate.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

OriginalWacky

I'm so sorry you and your dogs had to go through that, I appreciate how hard it must have been for you.

Vicky & Carrie

Your dogs are very lucky to have you. It must be very distressing and frightening to witness a grand-mal seizure.

If it's of any comfort, one of the posters on the other forum I belong to, suffers from seizures, and from what other people tell her she behaves in strange ways, such as suddenly staring intenly at the ceiling or similar before a seizure, but she has memory of it whatsoever. 





msvette2u said:


> Has this dog ever attacked you or your husband? If not (did I miss it?) then it's not epilepsy. The very idea that it's seizures would indicate an inability to control who or where the dog bit.
> 
> That said, I agree. I almost said so last night then felt it might hurt your feelings.
> All I can think of is you, walking on eggs, making sure the dog doesn't come into contact with anyone else, and being slightly terrified he may do the same to you.
> ...


Whilst I agree with everything you and the others posters say, it's not that simple I'm afraid, as my OH will not consider having Jake put to sleep. He's convinced Jake will never hurt us because he loves us, and no amount of reasoned or emotional argument is going to change his mind. 

That being said, in fairness the first attack took place before Jake was on medication, and the second when his medication was reduced. Whilst on his medication, he has growled when close to both of us on one occasion, but nothing more. He normally just stares intently at nothing (that we can see) and sometimes growls or barks at "it". 

Undoubtable Jake's condition does effect our quality of life, but I wouldn't say it effects Jake. He has a nice life, with very little restriction. 

As we have both retired he spends virtually all his time with us --- apart from when we have visitors. He still has plenty of exercise , both on and off leash, plenty of playtime, love etc. He's still allowed to be reasonably close to people and other dogs outside the house, as long has he's on leash, as he wears a Dogmatic halter that automatically closes his mouth if he pulls or puts pressure on the leash.

So I keep my fingers crossed that the medication keeps doings it's job, and the thyroid tests give us even more improvement. I really do hope so, because none of us really want to have him pts.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Is it in sunlight or bright light and is it possible that there is a reflection (like a watch crystal) hitting this person?


You've really got me wondering about that Christine, it's certainly possible. 

He will suddenly dive at the slightest reflection or shadow. We've lost count of the number of times he has seriously yanked our shoulders by suddenly racing without any warning at shadows of birds flying above. He even attacks the shadow of a fly.

He's funny really he has no interest in the birds, just the shadows. Same if the sun's shining and we throw the ball, he doesn't see the ball, he only sees and chases the shadow.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the sounds like epilepsy statement.
Did you witness an actual seizure? My girl Kiya has been having seizures for over 6 years. I do get defensive when I hear someone say put the dog down because it has seizures, there is a lot more going on with this dog than Epilepsy. I am on a few different support groups on line and really can't say that aggression is a factor. During a seizure if you put your hand near a seizing dogs mouth you risk being bit.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do hope you find a resolution to his medical issues but feel you are putting anyone with contact with this dog at risk and am concerned that on the one hand you think he won't bite you because he loves you but realize there may be a medical issue which kind of seroiusly impacts his judgement-so I would think you *are* at risk.

Honestly, if my own 9 year old grandaughter had been bitten with puncture wounds I would have made a different decision, I am sorry to say.

I did look at the dogmatic which looks very much like a Halti. I would seriously consider putting a basket or cage muzzle on him when he has the opportunity to contact other people. I do not think that the positioning of the straps is far enough out on the muzzle to ensure he cannot open his mouth and bite. Plus if he is lunging on that head collar he could seriously damage his neck.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

kiya said:


> I am sorry but I have to disagree with the sounds like epilepsy statement.
> Did you witness an actual seizure? My girl Kiya has been having seizures for over 6 years. I do get defensive when I hear someone say put the dog down because it has seizures, there is a lot more going on with this dog than Epilepsy. I am on a few different support groups on line and really can't say that aggression is a factor. During a seizure if you put your hand near a seizing dogs mouth you risk being bit.


 
Jake doesn't suffer from grand-mal epilepsy. As far as I am aware it's either Complex partial seizures or Psychomotor seizures. I don't know for sure because it's not been diagnosed exactly as it's difficult to diagnose with certainty. All I can say is the phenobarbital appears to be contolling it. 

I'd be very interested in visiting a support group, if you'd care to give me details.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

jakes mom said:


> Jake doesn't suffer from grand-mal epilepsy. As far as I am aware it's either Complex partial seizures or Psychomotor seizures. I don't know for sure because it's not been diagnosed exactly as it's difficult to diagnose with certainty. All I can say is the phenobarbital appears to be contolling it.
> 
> I'd be very interested in visiting a support group, if you'd care to give me details.


This is one of the best Canine Epilepsy Resource Center & Home of the Epil-K9 List if you have a hard time joining just let me know and I will get someone to help, I've been with this group for 6 years.

This site doesn't have a lot of activity but there is a lot of info Canine Epilepsy Network

There is also a yahoo group, but I don't post there.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I do hope you find a resolution to his medical issues but feel you are putting anyone with contact with this dog at risk and am concerned that on the one hand you think he won't bite you because he loves you but realize there may be a medical issue which kind of seroiusly impacts his judgement-so I would think you *are* at risk.
> 
> Honestly, if my own 9 year old grandaughter had been bitten with puncture wounds I would have made a different decision, I am sorry to say.
> 
> I did look at the dogmatic which looks very much like a Halti. I would seriously consider putting a basket or cage muzzle on him when he has the opportunity to contact other people. I do not think that the positioning of the straps is far enough out on the muzzle to ensure he cannot open his mouth and bite. Plus if he is lunging on that head collar he could seriously damage his neck.


 
I'm sorry if I haven't explained too well. Personnally I do think we're taking a risk, it's my OH (John) who doesn't. It was his daughter and granddaughter who were attacked (they're my family emotionally but not biologically). 

It's only me and John at risk though. We live alone and Jake is not allowed to be in with visitors.

Jocoyn, I understand what you're saying about the dogmatic halter, but I guarantee, it does close his mouth, and even if it didn't he is never close enough to make contact with anyone. 

As for possible neck injury, that's an interesting one. We have been using one now for several years, because our previous GSD was bigger than average and extremely reactive, and when he was in full reactive mode it took two off us to keep hold of him, even with a no-pull harness on. 

The first time he wore a head collar and he really pulled sideways on a long lead, it really worried me, because he came to a sudden stop and fell over. I don't deny I thought it was possible that he could break or injure his neck. It worried me so much we saw our vet at the time and were assured that GSD's necks have so much muscle there was no chance. Four different vets have said the same since. But my gut instinct thinks there is a chance, if they hit the end of a long lead suddenly. I also think it's possible with a normal neck collar, and how anyone can use a prong collar I don't understand. 

So we use a harness when he's on a long lead and his halter on a shorter lead, so he can't lunge far enough to do himself, or anyone else any harm.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Actually the prong is least likely to injure the dog of all things when used properly. That said, given the unknown source of agression I would be concerned with a prong making any agression even worse as it can have that effect.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

So your husband is the one who would object to putting the dog to sleep?
I honestly think if it was epilepsy he could not control who he attacked.
I do know the drug is a sedative and thus maybe keeps the dog calmer than if he was not sedated.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Actually the prong is least likely to injure the dog of all things when used properly. That said, given the unknown source of agression I would be concerned with a prong making any agression even worse as it can have that effect.


Sadly, as with many training aids, there are too many people who use them incorrectly, rather than take the time to train their dogs. 




msvette2u said:


> So your husband is the one who would object to putting the dog to sleep?


Yes that's right. That's not saying I *want* him pts, but I am worried he'll unintentionally attack one of us, so I am willing to make that painful decision. I know he wouldn't hurt us deliberately, but I genuinely believe he has no control it. 

Between us we've got 3 children, 6 grandchildren and my first great grand child due any day now, and we don't see us as much of them as we used to because they know it's difficult with Jake.

Kiya

Thanks a lot for the links.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I would like to clarify that seizure activity in the brain is not the same thing as epilepsy.
Idiopathic epilepsy is "no known cause" and generally a label given when massive tests are not run. (ex: MRI, CT scan, etc)
Heart good, no known tick cause such like that.

Seizure activity can be as simple as compulsive tail chasing, light and shadow chasing, getting stiff and immobile and staring off into middle nowhere, to a frothing at the mouth, convulsing grand mal.
There is a difference.

I looked up a few links for you Jake'smom....interesting stuff actually if it weren't so darned sad.

http://www.btneuro.org/?page_id=24

DODDS-BEHV-THYROID

the second link touches also on hyperthyroidism.

Good luck.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

jakesmom, I have no experience with this at all, so I have said nothing, but I was reading along. First let me say how sorry I am you have to be in this position. Tough place. 

But your last sentence: _"Between us we've got 3 children, 6 grandchildren and my first great grand child due any day now, and we don't see us as much of them as we used to because they know it's difficult with Jake_."

If I were in your shoes, I would be asking myself which is more important in the greater scheme of things: Keeping and managing this dog, or seeing, loving, spending time with my children, grandchildren and great-grandchild? When they remember me, how do I want them to think of me? That I chose a rescued dog over them? 

I'm not trying to sound like you ARE, please know that. But our emotions can play havoc with our sensibilities. Just something to consider in the cold light of day. 

Good luck. My thoughts are with you.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I just feel bad you have to live in perpetual fear of your dog. 
I know how stressful it can be to be having issues with a dog, and that's not even including aggression.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Well I wouldn't live with the possibility of any of those kids getting hurt but that's me. I already addresed that back a couple of pages.

There are some internet things that puzzle us old guys though.

Like what is an OH? Old Husband, Other Half, Odd Husband, Obnoxious Husband,/ or DH, Dear Husband, Dumb Husband, Deft Husband?

I guess when it comes to this stuff I would be a Dumb Husband.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I just realized that the above post of mine probably doesn't make sense.

It was because the OP (not going to get into that one) refers to her husband as the OH.

So now this OG will leave it alone.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> jakesmom, I have no experience with this at all, so I have said nothing, but I was reading along. First let me say how sorry I am you have to be in this position. Tough place.
> 
> But your last sentence: _"Between us we've got 3 children, 6 grandchildren and my first great grand child due any day now, and we don't see us as much of them as we used to because they know it's difficult with Jake_."
> 
> ...


 
RocketDog, 

You wouldn't believe how many times I have said more or less those exact words to my Other Half. He either can't or won't see it.

Truthfully, he will drop whatever he's doing to help any of the kids, but we are are under no illusion, that not one of us come above the dog.  

How I look at it is: Even if we find the answer to Jake's problems, we will still never be able to trust him round the kids. So our life with the kids will never be the same. Not to mention the walking and medication schedules. 
Never being able to go on holiday etc. 





Jack's Dad said:


> Well I wouldn't live with the possibility of any of those kids getting hurt but that's me. I already addresed that back a couple of pages.
> 
> There are some internet things that puzzle us old guys though.
> 
> ...


As you've probably gathered by above OH = Other Half. That's the polite term I'm using. Not what I'm thinking or feeling at the moment. 

And don't worry my grandkids will never be allowed anywhere near Jake.

I swear I am so angry. I feel sure the original owner *knew* something wasn't right with Jake and passed the problem on.

Really sad. Jake is 99% perfect, and I love him to bits.

CarrieJ

Thanks you so much for taking the time to find those links. I'm currently sorting the thyroid tests with Dr. Jean Dodd.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> ...........We have been using one now for several years, because our previous GSD was bigger than average and extremely reactive, and *when he was in full reactive mode it took two off us to keep hold of him, even with a no-pull harness on. *
> 
> ..............., and *how anyone can use a prong collar I don't understand. *.................


 
FYI - if you put your two sentences together, maybe it might become obvious why people who know what they are doing with a big potentially dangerous dog will use a Prong collar. In a word *CONTROL*!

A harness? What they use on Huskies to PULL a sled!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> So your husband is the one who would object to putting the dog to sleep?
> I honestly think if it was epilepsy he could not control who he attacked.
> *I do know the drug is a sedative and thus maybe keeps the dog calmer than if he was not sedated.*


THIS.

The drug might just "chill" him out a bit...switch him off. This is something you should consider......it *may* not be medical *BUT* the drug he is being given could be changing his behavior because of the sedative effects.....


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> ........We have been using one now for several years, because our previous GSD was bigger than average and extremely reactive, and when he was in full reactive mode it took two off us to keep hold of him, even with a no-pull harness on.
> 
> ........and how anyone can use a prong collar I don't understand......





codmaster said:


> FYI - if you put your two sentences together, maybe it might become obvious why people who know what they are doing with a big potentially dangerous dog will use a Prong collar. In a word *CONTROL*!
> 
> A harness? What they use on Huskies to PULL a sled!


You're suggesting I don't know what I'm doing because I don't use a Prong collar. 

Now, I admit, I don't know how to do loads of things, but what I am good at, really good at, is keeping a big potentially dangerous dog under control. I had years to figure out how, and with our current dog it's absolutely essential. 

Besides, why would I want to inflict pain or discomfort and instill fear in an animal I love? I'm embarrassed to admit I have done in the past, like a lot of dog owners, but that was before I knew better.

The majority of dogs don't need controlling anway, they just need training. Only dogs with "issues" may need controlling, but only while you teach them to cope with their issues.

My previous GSD was well trained, walked lovely to heel on a loose lead, retrieved, recalled etc. - but he was so reactive to other dogs, even on a choke chain or a *NO- PULL *harness it took two of us to hold him, when he was in full reactive mode. I desperately wanted to solve the problem. But how could I, when I struggled to even keep hold of him? 

All the qualified trainers we sort help from had no more joy than we did. Our poor dog was yanked about and practically choked, and it made no difference whatsoever. Even a retired Instructor of Police Dog handlers had no joy. 

We dreaded taking him out. We were even tempted to try a shock collar, but we loved our dog, and didn't want to inflict any further pain on him. If being choked hadn't helped why would having an electric shock? 

We then tried the head collars, the Gentle leader and the Halti. They both helped a lot, but I still couldn't get enough control over him in certain situations. We then found the dogmatic halter. Problem solved. I had 100% control of him if I needed it, without inflicting pain or choking him. 

Once I could control him, I then had chance to work on his problems, and it became a pleasure to go for walks - for us and the dog. 

I now use a harness and / or the halter depending on the circumstances.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> You're suggesting I don't know what I'm doing because I don't use a Prong collar. *Where did you see anything about what I was "Suggesting"? NO Suggestion whatsoever!*
> 
> Now, I admit, I don't know how to do loads of things, but what I am good at, really good at, is keeping a big potentially dangerous dog under control. I had years to figure out how, and with our current dog it's absolutely essential.
> 
> ...


 
*Oh I am sorry* - I thought that you said that it took TWO of you to control a single GSD. 

A PROPERLY fitted prong collar definetly allows a person to have much better control of a powerful dog.

Obviously (I am guessing here!) if you think a Prong collar is used to CHOKE a dog, it is either not fitted correctly and/or not being used right! But that is very understanable!

BTW a "choke" collar is also used absolutely WRONG if it is used to CHOKE a dog - with both of them the correction is given with a snap and then the leash is relaxed. NO CHOKING!


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

jakes mom said:


> All the qualified trainers we sort help from had no more joy than we did. Our poor dog was yanked about and practically choked, and it made no difference whatsoever. Even a retired Instructor of Police Dog handlers had no joy.
> .


I'm sorry you had to experience this. 

Sure is hard to find a good trainer!!!


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## mtmarabianz (Jan 7, 2010)

I think the OP is a troll, I do not buy this story!!


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## mtmarabianz (Jan 7, 2010)

1) The story is Bizarre

2) No one puts a dog above their children's well being

3) If you do, no help on an internet forum

4) It's not the dog's fault, It is always the Owner's


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Well, different situation. This woman was later arrested and charged with manslaughter.
She put HER needs above both her dogs and her childrens' needs and well being. She was later found to be under the influence.

Fatal Dog Mauling Of Toddler Determined To Be An Accident - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego

This story only warranted a small paragraph on page ten of our local paper when it happened.

Oh, wait....yet another woman putting her needs and her breeding pair of dogs before her childs needs and well being.

Mother Pleads Not Guilty In Fatal Dog Mauling | www.ktvu.com

who locks the kid up and leaves the dogs loose?

I also would like to bring it back to the original point of SOA/SRS 
(sudden onset aggression/sudden rage syndrome) Unexplicable explosions of aggression.
It's thought to be a seizure activity in the brain or brought on by hyperthyroidism.
Dyes in dog foods are also thought to contribute to cancers and scientists are currently studying the link between seizures and the dyes and preservatives added to commercial dog food. 
I don't believe that the OP is a troll. 
I don't believe that the thread had anything to do with how to walk my dog on a leash. I could be wrong; I do skim stuff from time to time and some things I blatantly ignore.
I do believe that this dog (Jake) has a serious medical condition, (common in Springer Spaniels) that puts her in a difficult/sad situation.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

CarrieJ said:


> Well, different situation. This woman was later arrested and charged with manslaughter.
> She put HER needs above both her dogs and her childrens' needs and well being. She was later found to be under the influence.
> 
> Fatal Dog Mauling Of Toddler Determined To Be An Accident - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego
> ...


 

:shocked::shocked: *Good grief Carrie, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean that. I clearly need to go back to school and learn how to phrase things better*. 

*Our children's safety comes first to both of us. *

*Only John and I live at our house.*

*When any of the children visit - Jake is locked out. *

Please re-read my posts and come back to me if you think there's anything I haven't explained very well. 

Sue.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

mtmarabianz said:


> 1) The story is Bizarre
> 
> 2) *No one puts a dog above their children's well being*
> 
> ...


Aw, I'm sorry Jakesmom.
It was this post and the one that accused you of being a troll. It slightly frosted my cake so to speak.
My response was meant more in your defense as opposed to attacking you. I definitely should have clarified better.
Apologies.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

So glad we're ok, Carrie.

For the benefit of anyone else who misunderstood me.

The only people in any danger are John and I. Unfortunately, John just refuses to see it. 

*As far as we are both concerned the the children's safety comes first and foremost.* 

But as far as quality of life is concerned, that's a different matter. John puts Jake first. 

Sue


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

mtmarabianz said:


> I think the OP is a troll, I do not buy this story!!





mtmarabianz said:


> 1) The story is Bizarre
> 
> 2) No one puts a dog above their children's well being
> 
> ...


 
mtmarabianz;2420986]1

Your posts have really worried and upset me all day. I thought it must be my fault because I hadn't explained things clearly enough. So I have just re-read all of my posts. If you take the trouble to do the same, you will find that nowhere have I said or even implied that a dog comes before a child's well being. 

I admit, I have moaned about my OH, because he does put Jake first (but not as far as safety of children is concerned). It's my safety he doesn't consider, or his own for that matter. 

Yes, I agree the story is bizarre --- but it also happens to be true.

And perhaps you could tell me how it's our fault that our dog has these problems ? 

As I said in my first post, I came on here for the benefit of anyone else who may the misfortune to experience a similar problem. 

I appreciate the opinions of other dog owners, even if I don't always agree with them, and I'm really grateful for the links that I have been given. 

But I do not appreciate your comments. Before you post anything so offensive in the future, please ensure you have read the posts correctly, or ask for clarification.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs can, and do have such problems. I hope Jake will be managed carefully until Dr Dodds results come back. 
I truly don't understand how this thread could be construed as a troll? If only it were true and all dogs were temperamentally sound.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree with Jane - there are situations where a dog's behaviour is baffling and difficult to explain. The owners are trying to find more insight and help by posting here and asking for feedback, as they may have to make a very difficult decision. There is nothing troll-ish about these posts.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Thank you.
*runs off to get cupcakes for everyone*


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Cup cakes - mmmm!! Seems reasonable to me


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

FTR, I never saw anything to indicate that this couple (who are living alone with no kids in the home) put their dog's welfare above that of their _grandchild. _
She stated at the outset that once the 12yr. old was bitten the dog is always separated. 

I'm curious what Dr. Dodd's will show. But I'm still of the belief that this is not a health issue (nor seizures). 
Just my opinion. 

Curious too, OP, if the panel's all fine and the dog does not have a health issue, will that lend weight to your argument with your hubby that the dog needs to be put to sleep?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The laser light play could be a serious factor. From what I remember from talking to a couple of vets, the laser light OCD causes the neurons/synapses in the brain to short circuit - which I think is a similar neurological effect of epilepsy. Not sure whether this was in the literature yet, or if it was being studied - but I know I have seen dogs (and a couple cats) whose owners thought this was cute and at least one dog ended up with severe disorders and was euthanized.

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

jakes mom said:


> You've really got me wondering about that Christine, it's certainly possible.
> 
> He will suddenly dive at the slightest reflection or shadow. We've lost count of the number of times he has seriously yanked our shoulders by suddenly racing without any warning at shadows of birds flying above. He even attacks the shadow of a fly.
> 
> He's funny really he has no interest in the birds, just the shadows. Same if the sun's shining and we throw the ball, he doesn't see the ball, he only sees and chases the shadow.


This is the kind of behavior the dog I was talking about did as well...and he would stare intently at the ground - then pounce like a cat at nothing...over and over....

Lee


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> This is the kind of behavior the dog I was talking about did as well...and he would stare intently at the ground - then pounce like a cat at nothing...over and over....


 
That's right Lee. 

I'll be honest the first time we saw him attack a light on the floor from a torch, it caught us totally by surprise, and we thought it was very funny. He literally tried to dig his way through our kitchen floor to get at it. We very soon realised it wasn't funny at all. 

It seems so ridiculous really, but it's a huge problem. Jake is obsessed and oblivious to anything else, if he sees a glint of reflection, an unexplained light or fast moving shadow, he is in a zone of his own. We can't get through to him. 

Now I know this sounds totally stupid, but the more I observe him, the more it appears as though he's trying to understand and make sense of things.

I've been trying for the past hour or so to try and explain what I mean by this, but I'm struggling. So I'm giving in for now, because I'm tired, and I've got a very busy few days, so I'll try and explain better on Monday or Tuesday. 

Sue


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Curious too, OP, if the panel's all fine and the dog does not have a health issue, will that lend weight to your argument with your hubby that the dog needs to be put to sleep?


Quite honestly, the only thing that will convince John that Jake should be put to sleep, is if he attacks one of us. He really believes he never will, and I really hope he's right. 

And if Jake ever does - it had better be John he attacks and not me. 

He knows Jake's got a problem, but he's convinced the medication will keep it under control - and hopefully it will.

Sometimes, I think he pushes Jake to see if he will bite. He deliberately plays rough with him and torments him. Jake just loves it and shows no sign of aggression.

I just can't get through to him that Jake has no control over it. He won't attack us, and he wouldn't have attacked anyone else if he could control it. 

I'm fighting a losing battle on that one.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He is setting Jake up to fail? Why? I'm sorry you are not getting thru to him...


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear this, it must be very hard and emotionally stressful for you.  I wouldn't know what to do myself, as it's so hard to live in fear with a dog that might attack in any moment, not coz he doesn't love you but simply coz he can't control it (honestly your OH must acknowledge this).

I have been wondering about this some days ago, after watching an episode of a dog TV show, in which a dog was PTS coz he attacked family members including kids, in which one was due to resource guarding and two seemed to be unprovoked. After thinking a lot and exchanged some opinions, I realized that since the family has children (so they just can't take time to analyze the situation) and the dog's chance to be adopted by another family is very low, there's nothing that could be done and the dog will end up being PTS anyways. But I was upset about how the trainer approached it (dramatizing the 1st attack, as if RG for food is something out of the world in dogs), since how many inexperienced owners that get's scared just for the slightest RG are going to dramatize the situations and ponder PTS right away, after seeing this episode? After all, a professional's opinion, specially a popular one, has strong influence in people's way of perceiving things.

But well, I really admired how you managed the situation, by trying so hard and putting up with so much stress before choosing PTS. You did a lot for understanding the situation, for understanding what's really wrong with him and if it's really manageable before thinking of the final solution.
No one has the rights to criticize your choice, as you already did what you can. It's not easy to be afraid of a sudden dog attack, specially one from a big dog.

Also, I personally don't think that putting a halter or a muzzle on him or restricting his freedom when guests are around is inhumane. And for the dog, it is certainly better than being PTS.
Also, I've known people that has dogs that are people/dog aggressive yet they aren't put to PTS just coz they can attack when they see others. They are rather managed, restricted from interacting with others. Of course it's the owner's responsibility for other people's safety from his/her dog, but as long as the owner is managing the situation, I don't see why the "any dog that is aggressive and attacks should be PTS as he is a disaster waiting to happen". Coz if so, then for example many dogs that are only guarding the backyard/house should be PTS for many dogs gets people aggressive and can seriously injure strangers that enters their territory without the owners' presence anyways.

But anyways, I must say I really admire what you're doing, and I hope that it will go well soon. This is a very informative thread, thank you for sharing.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Just wanted to add, your HO can't really prove anything by setting him up to fail, since it being a medical condition and not behavior, your dog's trigger can happen randomly.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Thank you Sheep,

For the benefit of everyone else who's been kind enough to reply, we've heard of a new possible treatment - occular compression - it hasn't undergone intensive clinical testing yet - but apparently it can do no harm providing there is no underlying eye problems, so we've been using it on Jake. 

Could we wishful thinking or coincidence, or the fact that the sun's been shining and he's been able to chase loads of shadows, but he's certainly had a very happy week. 

Sue


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> The laser light play could be a serious factor. From what I remember from talking to a couple of vets, the laser light OCD causes the neurons/synapses in the brain to short circuit - which I think is a similar neurological effect of epilepsy. Not sure whether this was in the literature yet, or if it was being studied - but I know I have seen dogs (and a couple cats) whose owners thought this was cute and at least one dog ended up with severe disorders and was euthanized.
> 
> Lee


The Dog Who Loved Too Much  by Dr. Nicolas Doddman from Tufts University touched on this behavior and the link to seizure activity in the brain.
Most family vets do not have MRI or Cat Scans available in situations like this.

Really sad.
I posted a crusade anti-laser pen rant/comment on my FB page I'm so against them. (feel free to friend me and re-share/post if you want...look for a sunset and Alice's big nose)
Jake's Mom (Sue) Thanks for the update, when you get a chance could you please tell me more about occular compression?
How's it working for Jake?


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Carrie, Thanks a lot for that info.

Occular comprssion is basically applying pressure to closed eyes, so that the eyeball presses on a nerve in the brain, and that somehow calms the electrical actively.

You know Carrie, this seems odd, but we've been wondering....... Was it the OCD light chasing that started the seizures..... or, was it the enforced withdrawal of his fixation with lights that started them  

I'll ask the vet - see what she thinks. 

This is the link for the occular compression

Ocular Compression

Sue


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