# WLGSD vs. Mali vs. Dutchie for 1st time WL owner



## Eagerly Waiting (May 16, 2016)

Hey! I had a question for some of you German Shepherd PP owners out there as I'm researching to find the right breed / drive for my first PP dog in 2 or 3 years. The few breeds I'd been considering were the WLGSD, Belgian Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, etc. I liked these breeds because they're a lot more transportable than other guard dogs like the Mastiff, etc. And they train better. So, I was curious as to how you guys think your shepherds work. (I.E. I hear they're more user-friendly than the Mali as the Mali will bite it's handler when frustrated. Not certain, just things I've heard.) As well as if you'd recommend a Shepherd / Dutchie / Mali for me. 

My fiance is in the Military and I don't feel safe without him, so I wanted a PP dog to take away some of those fears because let's be honest, this is one **** of a crazy society. Fido, as we will call the prospective puppy, will live indoors with us aND our Corgi mix. We wold prefer a dog that doesn't have the "Golden Retriever Bounce" as our current dog is a pretty no-nonsense dog. Fido will also be our first WL dog, so a dog that doesn't lean towards hyperactivity would be nice, though it's to my understanding good breeding will correct that. Fido won't be home alone for many hours as when we acquire Fido, I'll be a housewife. I'm willing to pour in three 1.5 hour jogs as well as games of fetch, hide and go seek, etc. Mental stimulation will come from obedience training, perhaps competitive? Or agility training, also perhaps competitive? Depends on which sport Fido takes more a liking to. A dog that can settle in the house is a must, though I hear that you have to train an "off switch" as they aren'the automatic, is that true? This dog will be apart of the family, so the dog can't have such a high drive it can't handle driving down/flying down from whichever state we're in to Florida for the Holidays. A dog that is adaptable is also a must, since we will be in the military and PCS (Permanent Change of Station) is a very real thing. 

So, what do you think, would I be suitable for a WLGSD? Mali? Dutchie? 

Thanks, 
Robin


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I, of course, and most here, will say working line GSD

HOWEVER - most important is the breeding and character as all the things you do want are in the WL and all the things you do NOT want are in the working lines.....

Personally - dogs without off switches make me crazy - I don't' want one, will not keep one and definitely would not breed one I thought was like this....so the character of the parents and the pedigree is most important. We here all have our own favorites and dislikes in pedigrees.....what breeder A loves, Breeder B abhores....the key is to finding a dog/litter which has been raised in a home, and whose dam lives in a home and has the appropriate character that you desire....


Lee


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Having a dutchie... I would say WL GSD due to your comments about hyperactivity and the importance of an off switch. The mal and dutchie are a high drive, high energy dog and you need to be ready for that and willing to commit to that. What it means is that they need a serious commitment to training. Yes you can train an off switch but you better start with good genetics. With a mal and dutchie your timing has to be good, your commands crystal clear, you need to learn to read a dog well. I disagree that they all bite when frustrated but they can become frustrated quickly if they can't figure you out. Frustrated can be biting the handler, but more commonly destructiveness and non-compliance. Generally speaking a GSD is more forgiving of handler error or poor timing. BUT start with good genetics. That is the key to any breed. Find a good breeder.


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## Eagerly Waiting (May 16, 2016)

@Lee I was more than expecting WLGSD (This is a GSD website after all, why would they not recommend their loving, powerful, angels?) However, I was hoping there would be reasons listed after. "I would recommend __________ because _________, which seems to be something you want, etc. Etc. Etc." Just so I can get a feel. This was also to ask how they work with handlers (Why asked about the Mali's frustrated bite, etc.) So I can better understand what goes on under the hood. 
@DutchKarin I understand. I'm more than willing to work with a dog, but I'm still human, and I KNOW I can't aptly say that I could be in the field all day working and training. I know my limits, and I truly applaud those whom can get up at 5 A.M. and work and work and work their dogs. I could never. It'd probably kill me. Plus, I'll be honest, I'm definitely going to need a user-friendly dog seeing as that it is insane to think that reading/training/working a Mali/WLGSD is anything like working the ASL, Lab, Corgi mix, Australian Shepherds I've worked before. They're different dogs bred for different purposes, with EXTREMELY different drives. So the fact that the GSD is forgiving is a heaven-sent because lord bless it be, I can't honestly say there will never be a time I misread/inaccurately assess my dog. 

I do understand that genetics are everything and you can always get the exception, but I'd rather play the majority, seeing there's a higher chance I won't see the exception.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

put it this way... most mal/dutchie rescues will not adopt a dog to a handler without mal/dutch experience... few exceptions are made for those with WL GSD experience but you better have the work and titles to build your case.

it's a different league, and honestly, my opinion of course.... if you're asking the Internet if a malinois is right for you, then it probably isn't 

a forgiving dog is gold!!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Eagerly Waiting said:


> @Lee I was more than expecting WLGSD (This is a GSD website after all, why would they not recommend their loving, powerful, angels?) However, I was hoping there would be reasons listed after. "I would recommend __________ because _________, which seems to be something you want, etc. Etc. Etc." Just so I can get a feel. This was also to ask how they work with handlers (Why asked about the Mali's frustrated bite, etc.) So I can better understand what goes on under the hood.
> 
> 
> 
> I do understand that genetics are everything and you can always get the exception, but I'd rather play the majority, seeing there's a higher chance I won't see the exception.



well - I know my dogs have off switches - and are totally able to function as house pets as well as work and be appropriately aggressive/protective....and I have had dogs who were not protective from other bloodlines....and for a while, had a dog who had no off switch and he made me crazy - could not stand the dog....so all types come in the WL dog...and for example, I have had all 3 of these types with a common grandfather - but they were all different in 3/4 of their pedigrees....so it really really does depend on the pedigree as much as anything. I would not say that it is a majority or certain percentage at all....IMO it is totally pedigree/genetics driven if the dog has a natural off switch


Lee


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## Eagerly Waiting (May 16, 2016)

@Lee, first I thank you for being so responsive and helpful. I've solidly decided to go with a GSD. I did have a few questions for you, as your dog's pedigree sounds like something I'd like to look into. How well do they get along with other dogs? Obviously I have a current dog, but my fiance is dead-set on getting a lab or a golden (He loves both, definitely determined to get one, not sure which one yet though.) And this third dog won't come into our lives until Fido is done with PP training and at least, at the very least, 2 years old. Do they take better to dogs they grew up with? Thank you so much for all your knowledge!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> well - I know my dogs have off switches - and are totally able to function as house pets as well as work and be appropriately aggressive/protective....and I have had dogs who were not protective from other bloodlines....and for a while, had a dog who had no off switch and he made me crazy - could not stand the dog....so all types come in the WL dog...and for example, I have had all 3 of these types with a common grandfather - but they were all different in 3/4 of their pedigrees....so it really really does depend on the pedigree as much as anything. I would not say that it is a majority or certain percentage at all....IMO it is totally pedigree/genetics driven if the dog has a natural off switch
> 
> 
> Lee


I had a GSD, non working line, with absolutely zero off switch. This was many years ago, I loved the dog dearly but she made me absolutely crazy. I know this is an old thread but I will be getting a DS within 6 months, I'm trying to gather all the info possible. I made it clear to the breeder that he must have an off-switch. Does that jeopardize his ability to protect? I will be training mainly for protection, I just want to know your opinion on what exactly to ask for from the breeder. Can you even predict if the dog will be protective at 8 weeks?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Julian G said:


> I had a GSD, non working line, with absolutely zero off switch. This was many years ago, I loved the dog dearly but she made me absolutely crazy. I know this is an old thread but I will be getting a DS within 6 months, I'm trying to gather all the info possible. I made it clear to the breeder that he must have an off-switch. Does that jeopardize his ability to protect? I will be training mainly for protection, I just want to know your opinion on what exactly to ask for from the breeder.* Can you even predict if the dog will be protective at 8 weeks?*


What has the breeder previously produced? What lines are the parents from? I'd want a Dutchie from KNPV lines personally....but would want to know the pedigree on both parents and know that the breeder I chose is very, very familiar with the breed, lines and how to match pedigree.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> What has the breeder previously produced? What lines are the parents from? I'd want a Dutchie from KNPV lines personally....but would want to know the pedigree on both parents and know that the breeder I chose is very, very familiar with the breed, lines and how to match pedigree.


Yes, it will be from KNPV lines. The breeder is reputed to be one of the best in the country.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> well - I know my dogs have off switches - and are totally able to function as house pets as well as work and be appropriately aggressive/protective....and I have had dogs who were not protective from other bloodlines....and for a while, had a dog who had no off switch and he made me crazy - could not stand the dog....so all types come in the WL dog...and for example, I have had all 3 of these types with a common grandfather - but they were all different in 3/4 of their pedigrees....so it really really does depend on the pedigree as much as anything. I would not say that it is a majority or certain percentage at all....IMO it is totally pedigree/genetics driven if the dog has a natural off switch
> 
> 
> Lee


yes to that , and to this as well "Personally - dogs without off switches make me crazy - I don't' want one, will not keep one and definitely would not breed one I thought was like this."

hyper active does not equal drive .


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Eagerly Waiting said:


> Hey! I had a question for some of you German Shepherd PP owners out there as I'm researching to find the right breed / drive for my first PP dog in 2 or 3 years. The few breeds I'd been considering were the WLGSD, Belgian Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, etc. I liked these breeds because they're a lot more transportable than other guard dogs like the Mastiff, etc. And they train better. So, I was curious as to how you guys think your shepherds work. (I.E. I hear they're more user-friendly than the Mali as the Mali will bite it's handler when frustrated. Not certain, just things I've heard.) As well as if you'd recommend a Shepherd / Dutchie / Mali for me.
> 
> My fiance is in the Military and I don't feel safe without him, so I wanted a PP dog to take away some of those fears because let's be honest, this is one **** of a crazy society. Fido, as we will call the prospective puppy, will live indoors with us aND our Corgi mix. We wold prefer a dog that doesn't have the "Golden Retriever Bounce" as our current dog is a pretty no-nonsense dog. Fido will also be our first WL dog, so a dog that doesn't lean towards hyperactivity would be nice, though it's to my understanding good breeding will correct that. Fido won't be home alone for many hours as when we acquire Fido, I'll be a housewife. I'm willing to pour in three 1.5 hour jogs as well as games of fetch, hide and go seek, etc. Mental stimulation will come from obedience training, perhaps competitive? Or agility training, also perhaps competitive? Depends on which sport Fido takes more a liking to. A dog that can settle in the house is a must, though I hear that you have to train an "off switch" as they aren'the automatic, is that true? This dog will be apart of the family, so the dog can't have such a high drive it can't handle driving down/flying down from whichever state we're in to Florida for the Holidays. A dog that is adaptable is also a must, since we will be in the military and PCS (Permanent Change of Station) is a very real thing.
> 
> ...


Make sure you are aware of what it means to PCS with a large dog or 2. The Military does not pay to move your pets. If you get lucky enough to be offered an overseas assignment, you will have to crate, fly and sometimes quarantine your dogs on your own dime. This can be very expensive. I know I had $4000 in flying my dogs to Hawaii. Because of this, many pets end up on Craigslist or in shelters around military bases. 

Also be aware that only 2 dogs are allowed in on post housing. 

IMHO, if you are worried about being by yourself during times when your fiance / husband is away for training or deployment, I suggest you live on post. Most on post communities are incredibly tight knit, and neighbors are always looking out for each other. You will be surrounded by families much the same as yours. Not to say that crime doesn't happen on post, but if you're going to pick a neighborhood to feel safe in, being surrounded by military families is a pretty good place to start.

If you truly want / need a PPD, you should be looking at trained adult dogs from someone local with which you can carry on training. Once you are working as a team, you may be able to work with the patrol dog teams on post for sustainment training. I used to work Fama with the MP's occasionally after she was retired.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Julian G said:


> I had a GSD, non working line, with absolutely zero off switch. This was many years ago, I loved the dog dearly but she made me absolutely crazy. I know this is an old thread but I will be getting a DS within 6 months, I'm trying to gather all the info possible. I made it clear to the breeder that he must have an off-switch. Does that jeopardize his ability to protect? I will be training mainly for protection, I just want to know your opinion on what exactly to ask for from the breeder. Can you even predict if the dog will be protective at 8 weeks?


Your best bet is to just talk with the breeder. Describe your ideal dog and your regular day. 

If you want a KNPV dog, why not purchase a green dog? You will have a much better idea of what you are getting. I understand the desire to get a puppy and raise it up all on your own, but if you are getting into real protection training, you would be more likely to get the right dog for you if you get an adolescent or adult. With that being said, if the breeder has a good track record and knows their lines, they stand a very good chance of getting you a puppy that fits your needs.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

David Winners said:


> Make sure you are aware of what it means to PCS with a large dog or 2. The Military does not pay to move your pets. If you get lucky enough to be offered an overseas assignment, you will have to crate, fly and sometimes quarantine your dogs on your own dime. This can be very expensive. I know I had $4000 in flying my dogs to Hawaii. Because of this, many pets end up on Craigslist or in shelters around military bases.
> 
> Also be aware that only 2 dogs are allowed in on post housing.
> 
> ...


Hit the nail on the head. I was a card carrying spouse for 27 years, only lived on Post when he had his command and it was required. I just retired from teaching on an army post. A military post, especially since 9/11 is probably one of the safest places to live. And yes, there is a dog limit. A PPD dog would probably have to be registered as such on Post, all dogs have to be microchipped and registered on Post. But a PPD dog especially so. 


There are strict rules concerning weapons on a Post. Some posts you have to register them and keep them in the armory, checking them out to go to the range. No one can carry a concealed weapon on a Post, even if they have a license for one. I don't know what they would consider a PPD dog in housing. If allowed, you would really need to have full control of that dog at all times in all instances or you could have a real liability.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Yesterday and today I had to attend the funeral of a dear dear friends mother......her brother flew in from the West Coast....these friends (Pat & Phil ) have two of my dogs, Bengal who is from Csabre and who is Lucca's mother and they also have Nicolai who is about 11 months old. So far Nic has had some basic AKC style obedience and puppy agility just for fun....nothing serious training wise, this is a purely pet home with very very good friends and the dog are taken on family vacations with adult children and small grandchildren to the OB and not really asked to do anything training difficult or advanced.

The brother is staying at Pat's......he went out for part of the evening the other night, returning at 3 am........Nic greeted him at the door, proceeded to guard him right there in a hold and bark....did not touch him, but held him until one of the owners came and released him and allowed the brother in the house - then Nic was totally neutral to him.....this is a pup who lives in the house as a family member, does only the most basic training, and has all the attributes that would make him titlable as well (have tested him).....you can find these kinds of dogs if you do your due diligence and are willing to pay for a well bred pup.


Lee


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Would definitely go with a working line GSD being a first time owner. I personally have never owned a Malinois or Dutch shepherd but everyone I know that has one is a very experienced working dog handler. Also keep in mind that if you get a working line dog you are never really done with training, it's a continual thing, think of it as a lifestyle. It would be a good idea to find a local club to see if protection training is something you would like. Good luck in your search for a dog.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

David Winners said:


> Your best bet is to just talk with the breeder. Describe your ideal dog and your regular day.
> 
> If you want a KNPV dog, why not purchase a green dog? You will have a much better idea of what you are getting. I understand the desire to get a puppy and raise it up all on your own, but if you are getting into real protection training, you would be more likely to get the right dog for you if you get an adolescent or adult. With that being said, if the breeder has a good track record and knows their lines, they stand a very good chance of getting you a puppy that fits your needs.


What are the general ages of green dogs? And what is the price difference? Do they cost more or less than pups?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> Yesterday and today I had to attend the funeral of a dear dear friends mother......her brother flew in from the West Coast....these friends (Pat & Phil ) have two of my dogs, Bengal who is from Csabre and who is Lucca's mother and they also have Nicolai who is about 11 months old. So far Nic has had some basic AKC style obedience and puppy agility just for fun....nothing serious training wise, this is a purely pet home with very very good friends and the dog are taken on family vacations with adult children and small grandchildren to the OB and not really asked to do anything training difficult or advanced.
> 
> The brother is staying at Pat's......he went out for part of the evening the other night, returning at 3 am........Nic greeted him at the door, proceeded to guard him right there in a hold and bark....did not touch him, but held him until one of the owners came and released him and allowed the brother in the house - then Nic was totally neutral to him.....this is a pup who lives in the house as a family member, does only the most basic training, and has all the attributes that would make him titlable as well (have tested him).....you can find these kinds of dogs if you do your due diligence and are willing to pay for a well bred pup.
> 
> ...


And I must say, my untrained (in protection or protection sports), rescue of GSD and unknown heritage did this exact same maneuver when my father (who he had never met), walked into my house while I was in the bathroom having an allergic reaction to hornet stings. I heard this bru ha ha and ran down the hall to find my dog had my father against the wall refusing to let him move. As soon as I told him it was cool they were buds. Sometimes you find gems in unlikely places. This guy came from some ditch in Florida.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Your best bet is to just talk with the breeder. Describe your ideal dog and your regular day.
> 
> If you want a KNPV dog, why not purchase a green dog? You will have a much better idea of what you are getting. I understand the desire to get a puppy and raise it up all on your own, but if you are getting into real protection training, you would be more likely to get the right dog for you if you get an adolescent or adult. With that being said, if the breeder has a good track record and knows their lines, they stand a very good chance of getting you a puppy that fits your needs.


One of the advantages of getting a young adult dog is that you can get hips and elbows done. With a puppy, all you can do is preliminary X-rays at six months. At two, the joints are fully formed and you can get an accurate reading.

An adult dog from a reputable seller should come with OFAs or a stamps or whatever certification is used in the dog's country of origin.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> What are the general ages of green dogs? And what is the price difference? Do they cost more or less than pups?


Generally somewhere between 9 and 15mos. More because you know more about what the dog is at that age.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> And I must say, my untrained (in protection or protection sports), rescue of GSD and unknown heritage did this exact same maneuver when my father (who he had never met), walked into my house while I was in the bathroom having an allergic reaction to hornet stings. I heard this bru ha ha and ran down the hall to find my dog had my father against the wall refusing to let him move. As soon as I told him it was cool they were buds. Sometimes you find gems in unlikely places. This guy came from some ditch in Florida.


Generally speaking, the breed is naturally protective. Whether they would bite or not is a different story.


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## Honeybee1999 (Mar 2, 2006)

My not-trained-in-protection female has also naturally protected me and my kids, once from a dog she didn't know (but the dog knew me and just wanted to come say hi), and twice from my husband whom she didn't recognize at the time because he was all bundled up and it was dark. As soon as she realized it was him she melted into a puddle of whining and licking to apologize lol. She never bit, just jumped between me and him with hackles up, growling and barking. 

My 6-month old pup, however, lets the old lady do all the protective barking so far. I'm wondering if his instincts will kick in any time soon.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Honeybee1999 said:


> My not-trained-in-protection female has also naturally protected me and my kids, once from a dog she didn't know (but the dog knew me and just wanted to come say hi), and twice from my husband whom she didn't recognize at the time because he was all bundled up and it was dark. As soon as she realized it was him she melted into a puddle of whining and licking to apologize lol. She never bit, just jumped between me and him with hackles up, growling and barking.
> 
> My 6-month old pup, however, lets the old lady do all the protective barking so far. I'm wondering if his instincts will kick in any time soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I'm sure it will, if anything they learn by watching other dogs. So she probably will teach him.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Julian G said:


> What are the general ages of green dogs? And what is the price difference? Do they cost more or less than pups?


IME, 10-24 months. They are considerably more expensive than a puppy because the breeder / broker has housed, vetted, fed and trained the dog for that period of time. They are typically $4000 and up, but that is money you would spend on the pup getting it to that point anyways (or close to it).

It should be said that if you are inexperienced in these things, you should take someone with experience selecting dogs to test the dog independently. Don't let someone from the kennels test the dog for you.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I had my granddaughter and wife at my SIL's pool, which is above ground with a big deck built off it. We were up on the deck for several hours. It was hot out, and fama went to lay under the deck and snooze. I went to the truck to grab some things, going around a pole barn that shielded me from Fama's view. When I came back from the truck, I walked towards the deck from the house where she could see me coming. the sun was at my back, and I had a couple towels wrapped around my neck, changing my appearance.

Fama exploded out from under the deck and charged me. I outed her and she immediately relaxed, once she recognized my voice, and came over to say hi. 

It takes some training and situational awareness to have a protection trained dog around. If It would have been a neighbor approaching the deck without my knowledge, they could have been bitten. I am 99% sure she would have just challenged them unless they showed threatening behavior, but it's a dog with it's own thought process in play and that means nothing is ever 100% reliable.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

David Winners said:


> IME, 10-24 months. They are considerably more expensive than a puppy because the breeder / broker has housed, vetted, fed and trained the dog for that period of time. They are typically $4000 and up, but that is money you would spend on the pup getting it to that point anyways (or close to it).
> 
> It should be said that if you are inexperienced in these things, you should take someone with experience selecting dogs to test the dog independently. Don't let someone from the kennels test the dog for you.


The drive out to the breeder is 9 hours away.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

9 hours is trivial when considered in the grand scope of the lifetime of a dog IMO. I got back from South Korea, slept for 6 hours, left for Fort Bragg in the afternoon, slept 2 hours in the back of my SUV in a Waffle House parking lot, picked Fama up and drove 10 hours home. Now I have her with me, and it's all worth it. 

If you trust the breeder and have communicated your desires to them honestly and effectively, you may get the dog you are looking for. If you want to be sure, take a person that knows what they are doing to a kennels and have them help pick a green dog for you. 

If I wanted a PPD, I would take an experienced decoy to a breeder / broker / kennels and have them test some dogs to find me a good fit. I may even rent a hotel room so I could spend some time alone with the dog to see how we got along away from the kennels. It's really a small expense considering the commitment you are making to the dog and your goals. I want a dog that is capable, but also a dog I click with. Having trained a bunch of MWDs, I understand that I just don't want any old dog to be my partner. I want a dog that I want to live with and have around me all the time, so picking an adolescent or adult dog enables me to better find a dog that suits my needs.

That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to get a puppy from a breeder I really trust, but that's an entirely different conversation.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

David Winners said:


> 9 hours is trivial when considered in the grand scope of the lifetime of a dog IMO. I got back from South Korea, slept for 6 hours, left for Fort Bragg in the afternoon, slept 2 hours in the back of my SUV in a Waffle House parking lot, picked Fama up and drove 10 hours home. Now I have her with me, and it's all worth it.
> 
> If you trust the breeder and have communicated your desires to them honestly and effectively, you may get the dog you are looking for. If you want to be sure, take a person that knows what they are doing to a kennels and have them help pick a green dog for you.
> 
> ...


I think this breeder picks the pups for you, I'm not sure whether or not driving all the way there would make much of a difference. But if he does let you pick your own pup, I can' really find someone who will want to take the long trip. I know a few tests to perform, but if you know what to do from A to Z, I would greatly appreciate it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's not about tests to perform for me. I'm not that experienced in puppy picking that I know in a step by step manner what I'm looking for. I want to test the dog for environmental and social stability, confidence, to see if it's biddable and to see if we click. I don't really know how to put into words how to do all this stuff. I just meet the dogs and spend some time with them. My experience in testing dogs is with adolescent and adult working prospects. If I were serious about getting a pup, I would take someone who knows what they are doing.

You will find puppy tests on the internet, such as the Vollhard (?), but I don't know how well they work. There are breeders in which I have the faith to get me the dog I'm looking for. I would simply talk to them about what I want in a dog and trust them to get me the right pup.


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