# Breeder suggestions



## Einar_Hanssen (Dec 16, 2020)

I have been looking into Jinopo and Tiekerhook...what I want is sort of a compromise between the two...I like Jinopo's dogs but think they are a bit too large...I also like Tiekerhook's dogs, especially because they are not to big - but I think they are a bit too intense/ high strung/ unpredictable/ dangerous (I would love to have a Tiekerhook dog, but think maybe they will be a little bit hard for me to controll/ manage...)

What I am looking for is a dog with a lot of innate social aggression/ civil drive so that the dog would defend the owner without ever being trained to do so...I like the DDR/Czech "looks" (but too big...), and the clear headedness/ on-off-button of some of these dogs...and they should have the hardness and innate aggression of the Tiekerhook dogs...

On the same time I do not want handler aggression in the dog...I don't want to get myself killed or mutilated...and I know my limitations as a dog handler...

Is there such a dog out there, or is this unrealistic? I do not mind 2-2 linebreeding like Tiekerhook does...that is only increasing the probability of something good in my opinion...

Any suggestions? Is it possible to try to make this dog myself...if I get one female from Tiekerhook and breed her to a Jinopo male...then try to select the smallest, least hyperactive and most social aggressive dog, then breed once again etc etc??


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Einar_Hanssen said:


> I have been looking into Jinopo and Tiekerhook...what I want is sort of a compromise between the two...I like Jinopo's dogs but think they are a bit too large...I also like Tiekerhook's dogs, especially because they are not to big - but I think they are a bit too intense/ high strung/ unpredictable/ dangerous (I would love to have a Tiekerhook dog, but think maybe they will be a little bit hard for me to controll/ manage...)
> 
> What I am looking for is a dog with a lot of innate social aggression/ civil drive so that the dog would defend the owner without ever being trained to do so...I like the DDR/Czech "looks" (but too big...), and the clear headedness/ on-off-button of some of these dogs...and they should have the hardness and innate aggression of the Tiekerhook dogs...
> 
> ...


It depends on your definition of social aggression as many will say that true social aggression in German Shepherd is getting hard to find. The rest of what you're looking for is doable. Active defensive aggression can also look similar to social aggression.

Looks like you're in Europe. Herman Willems aka Duke1965 on pedigree data base forum likes the same dogs you're talking about:


Staff – Police Dogs Europe



Like you already mentioned: Jiri Novotny - JINOPO has the bloodlines to produce civil dog

In the USA, I know Mike Diehl and Nate Harves can produce what you're looking for as well:









Sportwaffen K9 Working Line German Shepherd Dog Puppies For Sale


German Shepherd Dog Puppies For Sale for Police K9, Competition Dog Sport, Personal Protection, Service Dogs, and super Family Companions.




sportwaffenk9.com












Diehl's Police K9 Training Center, LLC | z Diehlomov | German Shepherd


Diehl's Police K9 Training Center, LLC., and z Diehlomov is where I promote my lifelong passion, the working German Shepherd Dog.




www.diehlspolicek9training.com





Now, I haven't personally dealt with the above breeders so I can't comment if they deliver what they say. But they all know what they are talking about and they have bloodlines to produce what you're looking for.

I'd talk to Herman if you're in Europe. You can read many of his posts on Pedigree Data Base forum.

Here is some definitions that may help you too:
Schutzhund Village - part 1
Schutzhund Village - part 2

And if you're looking for real civil aggression, many of these dogs will have the potential for handler aggression especially when coming out of the 4th basic bloodline. Generally, you should be looking for the alpha pups in the litter but I would go with the breeder you feel you can trust to pick you out the pup. There is saying: "be careful what you wish for" lol.

Good Luck and I would also be interested if anyone else has any more suggestions for breeders that produce this kind of dog.


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## Einar_Hanssen (Dec 16, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> It depends on your definition of social aggression as many will say that true social aggression in German Shepherd is getting hard to find. The rest of what you're looking for is doable. Active defensive aggression can also look similar to social aggression.
> 
> Looks like you're in Europe. Herman Willems aka Duke1965 on pedigree data base forum likes the same dogs you're talking about:
> 
> ...


Active defensive aggresion would be my primary goal...but I guess the dog should be suspicious towards strangers aswell...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Einar_Hanssen said:


> Active defensive aggresion would be my primary goal...but I guess the dog should be suspicious towards strangers aswell...


Have you handled a dog like this before? Along with active defense aggression comes a certain degree of handler aggression for unfair corrections. I am not saying the dog you want doesn't exist, but proper handling is going to be necessary.


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## Einar_Hanssen (Dec 16, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Have you handled a dog like this before? Along with active defense aggression comes a certain degree of handler aggression for unfair corrections. I am not saying the dog you want doesn't exist, but proper handling is going to be necessary.


I have handled this one for more than 3 years: Arinna av Taranis (pedigreedatabase.com) She did not have active defense aggression, but she had passed the police test in Norway and was supposed to become a police dog before being a rescue dog instead. She was used for bitework by the former owner and I was functioning as a dog walker for the present owner. I did have some problems handling her. In the end I had to give her something to bite on when I was present, otherwise she would have turned on me...that is why I am asking about handler aggression, because I know that it is difficult to control these dogs. The owner also had some issues with the dog. I have also handled several others working line GSD in connection with him because he is into rescue dogs...I have seen dog aggression, food aggression etc. I have also worked in a kennel where the owner had a retired policedog who almost attacked me when I was playing with the dog...so yes, I do know what can happen if the dog is not under control. However, I have a theory that if the dog is calm (like some DDR/ Czech dogs are - I have seen some...) the dog will be easier to control than one that is hyperactive (even if the hyperactive one is less aggressive...)...is this theory valid - or is it not the case?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Einar_Hanssen said:


> I have handled this one for more than 3 years: Arinna av Taranis (pedigreedatabase.com) She did not have active defense aggression, but she had passed the police test in Norway and was supposed to become a police dog before being a rescue dog instead. She was used for bitework by the former owner and I was functioning as a dog walker for the present owner. I did have some problems handling her. In the end I had to give her something to bite on when I was present, otherwise she would have turned on me...that is why I am asking about handler aggression, because I know that it is difficult to control these dogs. The owner also had some issues with the dog. I have also handled several others working line GSD in connection with him because he is into rescue dogs...I have seen dog aggression, food aggression etc. I have also worked in a kennel where the owner had a retired policedog who almost attacked me when I was playing with the dog...so yes, I do know what can happen if the dog is not under control. However, I have a theory that if the dog is calm (like some DDR/ Czech dogs are - I have seen some...) the dog will be easier to control than one that is hyperactive (even if the hyperactive one is less aggressive...)...is this theory valid - or is it not the case?


I would say that a clear headed dog is much easier to handle than a hectic one, yes. I think you can find the right dog. Others here know kennels and lines far better than I do.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What would you do if this dog that will bite without training actually went after someone? A dog with social aggression isn’t biting to defend you.


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## Einar_Hanssen (Dec 16, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> What would you do if this dog that will bite without training actually went after someone? A dog with social aggression isn’t biting to defend you.


I mixed up the expressions social aggression with active defensive aggression due to lack of experience with the terminology. However, the dog still could attack of course...that is why I want a smaller dog so I will be able to hold the dog back. I know that a huge male weighing in at 50 kilos will be impossible for me, but a bitch at 28 kilos I do know I will be able to hold back. Of course I know that there is no guarantee that the dog will bite, but what I am basically looking for is a dog with a strong guard instinct that probably would defend the owner. I know that a lot of GSD not necessarily have this instinct anymore due to breeding. Arinna av Taranis did not have it. A huge guy was screaming at me when I was walking her, and she did not even look at him...I doubt she would have defended me eventough she was used for IPO aswell...she would probably bite only if she was hectic/ in a high drive or if she got payed (with a ball or something)...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Einar_Hanssen said:


> I mixed up the expressions social aggression with active defensive aggression due to lack of experience with the terminology. However, the dog still could attack of course...that is why I want a smaller dog so I will be able to hold the dog back. I know that a huge male weighing in at 50 kilos will be impossible for me, but a bitch at 28 kilos I do know I will be able to hold back. Of course I know that there is no guarantee that the dog will bite, but what I am basically looking for is a dog with a strong guard instinct that probably would defend the owner. I know that a lot of GSD not necessarily have this instinct anymore due to breeding. Arinna av Taranis did not have it. A huge guy was screaming at me when I was walking her, and she did not even look at him...I doubt she would have defended me eventough she was used for IPO aswell...she would probably bite only if she was hectic/ in a high drive or if she got payed (with a ball or something)...


She also wasn’t your dog. I don’t mean holding the dog back. I mean teeth in flesh. My point is if you are looking for a dog with a capacity to bite, you need to have some sort of training involved if you plan to have that dog in public. Trossack’s Fortune can produce some good dogs. They may be more than what you want though.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Einar_Hanssen said:


> Active defensive aggresion would be my primary goal...but I guess the dog should be suspicious towards strangers aswell...


Definitely talk to Herman. If you end up getting something from him, hopefully you'll post your experience. I like the same type of dog 

Here is one of my favorite quotes from him lol:

"... and for the one thousandt time stop talking nonsense, a dog working in defense has ZERO more chance of flight than a dog working in prey, a weak nerved dog is a weak nerved dog, regardless of what drive it is working in,
at least a weak nerved dog with agression will bite you when cornered, a weak nerved prey dog, when cornered , will only piss himself " - duke1965 aka Herman Willems


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would not recommend either breeder you are considering......

Why not talk to Pierre Wahlstrom in Sweden????? He is knowledgable about law enforcement dogs and sport dogs and has not only trained both types of dogs, he has won a World Championship....

I believe he is someone who values correct temperament adn working ability over pure aggression and black sable color....

Lee


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> Definitely talk to Herman. If you end up getting something from him, hopefully you'll post your experience. I like the same type of dog
> 
> Here is one of my favorite quotes from him lol:
> 
> ...


Could you explain this quote?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Could you explain this quote?


It is self explanatory. You want more context? Read the thread.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> It is self explanatory. You want more context? Read the thread.


I'm not going to waste my time digging through that thread. That statement is wrong, very wrong.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

"_Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance_" - Albert Einstein


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> "_Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance_" - Albert Einstein


A dog working in prey doesn't perceive a threat to his being, and can be worked at that level indefinitely. A dog working in defense does perceive a threat to his being. The three options he has are fight, flight, and submit. If that pressure is not relieved and kept constant, you will eventually begin to see signs of the other two. There is a reason a decoy working a dog in defense has to react to his actions, has to show the dog that what he is doing is working. If I let a dog in defense bite me with zero change or response and continued to pressure him, he would eventually resort to the other two options. Dogs don't get ran by prey stimuli. I gave you a chance to explain the out of context quote you posted and you punted. Here is why I don't agree.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> A dog working in prey doesn't perceive a threat to his being, and can be worked at that level indefinitely. A dog working in defense does perceive a threat to his being. The three options he has are fight, flight, and submit. If that pressure is not relieved and kept constant, you will eventually begin to see signs of the other two. There is a reason a decoy working a dog in defense has to react to his actions, has to show the dog that what he is doing is working. If I let a dog in defense bite me with zero change or response and continued to pressure him, he would eventually resort to the other two options. Dogs don't get ran by prey stimuli. I gave you a chance to explain the out of context quote you posted and you punted. Here is why I don't agree.


You are referring to training a dog in defense, not working a dog in defense. You also assume that a dog working in prey will not tire, reach a pain threshold, experience something new and strange that induces fear in the dog.

You also assume that the dog working in defense doesn't like the fight.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Not trying to hijack the thread but related to- would anyone be able to refer to any good footage of a dog being worked in defense with solid forward defense drive and/or one with forward social aggression? I imagine it would be difficult to tell the difference between them in just a video not necessarily knowing the dogs motivation. Either way seems like most footage I always see are dogs working in prey.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> You are referring to training a dog in defense, not working a dog in defense. You also assume that a dog working in prey will not tire, reach a pain threshold, experience something new and strange that induces fear in the dog.
> 
> You also assume that the dog working in defense doesn't like the fight.


The dogs physical limits are still there. A dog operating in defense is closer to their mental limit than one in prey. To run a dog in prey, from a mental perspective, something needs to change to push them, such as pain. I talked training because it is a lot more static. In real work, its not as simple. The dog may be in prey, but there will probably be a lot of changes in the pressure he sees that may change that, such as getting hit in the head with a trash can lid. I would say if your dealing with a dog that is enjoying the fight, the primary drive has probably shifted from defense.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> Could you explain this quote?


Its just a point about the nerves and being equal in either dog. Its the nerves that will run him, not what drive he's in.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> The dogs physical limits are still there. A dog operating in defense is closer to their mental limit than one in prey. To run a dog in prey, from a mental perspective, something needs to change to push them, such as pain. I talked training because it is a lot more static. In real work, its not as simple. The dog may be in prey, but there will probably be a lot of changes in the pressure he sees that may change that, such as getting hit in the head with a trash can lid. I would say if your dealing with a dog that is enjoying the fight, the primary drive has probably shifted from defense.


I understand that you believe defensive dogs are weaker mentally as that is probably what you have been told at club. That is not always the case. Prey dogs can overload and get hectic as I'm sure you have seen. Prey dogs can become very confused when the fight gets too real for them.

The same can be said for defensive dogs.

You listed 3 ways a dog can fight in defense; fight, flight or submit. If the dog stays fighting, even when shot or stabbed, it is still in defense and still fighting. Some dogs love the challenge, and it has nothing to do with prey drive.

I suppose you could argue that the dog is in fight drive but that muddies the waters when referencing older materials.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I understand that you believe defensive dogs are weaker mentally as that is probably what you have been told at club. That is not always the case. Prey dogs can overload and get hectic as I'm sure you have seen. Prey dogs can become very confused when the fight gets too real for them.
> 
> The same can be said for defensive dogs.
> 
> ...


I just think defense work is inherently more stressful to the dog than prey work. You can run a dog in prey just like a dog in defense. What runs the dog in those scenarios is the same stimuli that trigger defense, not the ones that trigger prey. I’m not looking at it on a dog vs dog basis, but a single dog. I think it is more likely that dog gets ran being pushed into defense than in prey. There are dogs that take something extreme to run in defense, some that it just won’t happen. I’m not saying that a dog that works in defense is inherently weaker.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Its just a point about the nerves and being equal in either dog. Its the nerves that will run him, not what drive he's in.


I agree it’s the nerves. I think you test nerves more pushing the dog in defense than you do working it in prey.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

REEHGE said:


> Not trying to hijack the thread but related to- would anyone be able to refer to any good footage of a dog being worked in defense with solid forward defense drive and/or one with forward social aggression? I imagine it would be difficult to tell the difference between them in just a video not necessarily knowing the dogs motivation. Either way seems like most footage I always see are dogs working in prey.


Here is a video that was posted here a while ago. You can’t see what the decoy is doing though.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> I agree it’s the nerves. I think you test nerves more pushing the dog in defense than you do working it in prey.


Depends on the dog. I think the context of the quote was basically that. He's commenting to someone named after a fruit to quit quoting textbooks to make a point. I think thats actually a good idea for the op. Don't try to make a choice based on what you've read. You know what you don't want from the rescue dogs, but I think you may be getting the wrong idea of what you do want by trying to apply written descriptions of things that would be a lot clearer if you did meet someone like Pierre Walstrom.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Regarding the video, I am a little familiar with the dog and he appears to be a strong, confident dog. My issue is with this type of approach to defensive training where the decoy elicits a lot of defensive barking, but there is no real pressure that the dog has to work through. Too often, it can lead to a false sense of confidence because there is no serious pressure and the dog always wins by barking rather than staying in the fight in order to turn the pressure off. It is a very commonly used approach but I think it has significant flaws. It is very reinforcing to the decoy because he gets the dog to react, it is very reinforcing to the handler because he sees his dog light up, and it is very reinforcing to the dog because he gets a feeling of victory by barking the decoy into some sort of submissive body language. But that is very different than a dog being pressured while on the bite. It also ties into my bias against IGP with all the emphasis on barking, when the majority of dogs doing a B&H in the blind are barking for the toy/sleeve. I teach a silent guard partly because of what I stated and for other reasons. Getting a dog to bark in defense is not that difficult. Teaching a dog that staying in the fight while biting under pressure requires a higher skill set.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Regarding the video, I am a little familiar with the dog and he appears to be a strong, confident dog. My issue is with this type of approach to defensive training where the decoy elicits a lot of defensive barking, but there is no real pressure that the dog has to work through.


Can you direct to some good footage of a dog under real pressure?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Real is relative term depending on the dog, training and whether the dog is a sport dog or operational. Staring at a dog while bowed up might be "real" pressure to that dog. I am referring to the dog actually being attacked physically and staying in the fight vs. acting weird around the dog or displaying body language or verbalizations that might stress some dogs. Go to minute 5:34 of this video. It is not a ton of pressure but is different than getting a dog to bark defensively, and it is just sport, so the dog becomes conditioned to a particular scenario. But many dogs that would pass in IGP would fail this scenario. When you get into real world pressure, such as David noted with a dog getting stabbed and staying in the fight that is a whole different level of pressure because you can't train for that.





I'll add that PSA is a Malinois sport where the better Mals display fight through prey rather than fight through defense, which is more common in GSDs. That high level of prey can mask or override any concerns or fear the dog has and after many repetitions, the dog works through the pressure if any is perceived by the dog. The same can be done with a GSD that display fight through defense, but if the defensive threshold is too low or the nerves are too thin, which is not uncommon in the breed, the dog will not work through the pressure.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Here is example of an operational dog. To many dogs, this situation would involve pressure but it mostly speaks to the dog's drive and confidence.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Here is another example of an operational dog taking actual pressure.




These Mals are actually loving what they are doing rather than being stressed, which is most likely what a GSD would experience(stress), even with very good GSDs that could take the pressure.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

No doubt the dogs in videos are facing some impressive adversity at least in my eyes(particularly the operational K9s) but for obvious reasons the footage isn't up close and personal enough to read the dogs and their body language. The psa dog looks to me to like its having a blast running straight into and latching onto the guy running straight towards him, I guess it looks like a super intense prey exercise for the dog at least to my untrained eye, under some level of pressure attesting to at least some level of nerve strength since its not falling out of prey with the stress(surely many repetitive training sessions similar to situation as well though) but the dog is in all prey yes/no??


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don’t think it is so simple. All three dogs seem very happy and motivated and because the breed is a very high prey breed dog, the catalyst is likely prey, which can contribute to frustration aggression, which can lead to a form of fight through/over prey which Ellis refers to as competitive aggression, which is a more descriptive term for fighting instincts of Mals because the more the person fights, the more the dog fights back and enjoys the competition which is different from defensive aggression which usually has the goal of ending the fight or chasing the threat away. The Dutch Mal people say they don’t want their dogs biting from a place of defense, but of fight.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

REEHGE said:


> Can you direct to some good footage of a dog under real pressure?


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## Lukas77 (May 2, 2020)

If you are located in norway there would be a number of workingdog breeders nextdoor in sweden, also with lines a bit more allround in character and not breed on IPO-sport so much if you want a little less preydriven and less hectic dog that some of the sportbreed GSDs today. On the other hand you want a serious dog for some reason but not too much because you shouldn´t train it or doubt you can handle it so I don´t know how many serious breeders are willing to sell you such a dog.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

maybe get in contact with @HHH
another norwegian member, lovely dog
doesn’t post too often but seems to log in regularly...
being involved in SAR, likely to not have the type of dog you’re interested in, but may have other contacts.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Notice in Suttle’s video of Ivo, the dog is wagging his tail and is excited, not stressed as with defensive aggression. That is the type of dog he breeds for and has become more of the norm for KNPV XMals. Very social with extreme hunt and prey drive and possessiveness. The one argument against such dogs is their size makes them vulnerable to muscle heads on drugs who would not be deterred much by such a dog but that is a minority of apprehensions. The really good ones who aren’t small are very special.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I know he's a mal but that's a good video showing real pressure in training. I haven't had much time to look around for others showing a GSD. I can't post videos from the army. They are classified.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

I honestly don’t quite understand what you are looking for. Who needs a dog who will defend you without being trained for it in today's society? What are you going to use the dog for, is it just for personal defence? It’s a big responsibility, and the law in Norway is very strict! A dog can be put down if it bites some burglar who breakes in to your house, or jumps on a person when it's playing.

I know Arinna av Taranis, and have trained with her many times with her new handler, and she is absolutly not a hard dog. As far as I know she was never supposed to become a police dog, or has passed the L-test.


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## Einar_Hanssen (Dec 16, 2020)

HHH said:


> I know Arinna av Taranis, and have trained with her many times with her new handler, and she is absolutly not a hard dog. As far as I know she was never supposed to become a police dog, or has passed the L-test.


According to the owner she has passed the L-test (politiets mentaltest) and they do not want dogs that are too soft, the former owner was a policewoman (Hilde Haugli)...In my opinion she is to a certain extent a hard dog because she is absolutely NOT a soft/ handler sensitive dog. I would say she is *"middels hard"*. Her mother was a hard dog (I asked the breeder) and so was her father. She comes from rather close inbreeding so then she should not be a handler sensitive dog. She is not very easy to handle, maybe it seems like it when Arve handles her, but that does not mean it would be easy for* you* to handle her...*ask Arve if he manages to have her let go of items/ if she obeys "out"....and you will see that he cannot make her release the kong even when yelling/ screaming at her...a handler sensitive dog (the opposite of a hard dog) would let the kong out...*if you check out her pedigree you will see that a lot of the dogs (almost all) are either IPO3 or even PH...

Of course to some extent people use the terms hard/ handler sensitive different...but I think most people would agree that Johansen is not a soft dog...she needs proper handling (and so do most dogs coming from Taranis) or she would be (very) hard to live with...

Maybe you have trained with her, but I have walked her for hours some times each day for years and also trained "feltsøk" etc. Sometimes she would even growl at me when feeding her. It was potentially dangerous to let her out of the car when I was picking her up to go for a walk - and she almost attacked me on more than one occasion because she goes into a high drive (*overslagshandling*) when she understands that something "funny" is going to happen (that is walking/ training etc). This is not a easy dog. I do not believe that you are wrong, I KNOW for a fact that you are wrong. *I also got the impression that she was easy to handle when I first started out walking her, and after some time I understood that I was mistaken...*

As for being put down if the dog bites a burglar I don't think so...this would be a very clear-cut case of self defense...and the police would probably like it if the dog mutilated a drug addict invading your home...


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

Before I knew Arinna, I was asked to go out with her and Kazan, because I lived nearby. The owners were at work and could not come home for a while. Both dogs were inside, and it was no problem to go in and let them both out. Happy dogs, and without any guarding. Both barked at me when I came in, but certainly not with any aggression. We obviously have different perceptions of what a hard dog is, but anyway, my knowledge of Arinna was a digression.

Why do you need a dog that defend you, in such a way that you have to physically be able to stop it? What is the purpose for such a dog? Are you going to have a dog for work or competition?


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## Einar_Hanssen (Dec 16, 2020)

HHH said:


> Happy dogs, and without any guarding. Both barked at me when I came in, but certainly not with any aggression. We obviously have different perceptions of what a hard dog is
> 
> What is the purpose for such a dog? Are you going to have a dog for work or competition?


And for how long period/ how many times did you deal with his dogs? And did you deal with Johansen on her own without the other (male dog) being present under more challenging circumstances? *I also did not have any problems IN THE BEGINNING*...I never said the dog was aggressive, and if you have read my previous posts carefully you will see that I did not mention hardness before you said it was not a "hard" dog. I have never said that this is an aggressive or extremely hard/ difficult dog. What I have said is that the dog *is difficult under certain circumstances and therefore needs proper handling.* The dog has been trained by the police and also used for IPO, and such dogs are not 100% reliable. And the fact that you do not know this and even doubt that the dog was supposed to become a policedog clearly shows that you do not know this dog very well...sometimes when Arve walks Johansen he has to *physically stop* the dog or he could risk that she will use her teeth on him, not biting properly -but if he does not nip it in the bud in a* harsh* manner *it could get out of control very quickly* - and I have seen it, ask him if you do not believe me...letting the dog out of a confined container (small cage in his car) when she has been inside the car for maybe 10 hours in a row and she knows that I am going to go for a walk with a duration of 2 hours cannot be compared to letting the dog out of the house together with another dog...*By the way: Kazan bit a veterinary so the tooth went through/ came out on the other side of the doctor's hand so now Arve always uses a muzzle when he brings his dogs to such a facility. *Obviously you do not know anything at all about his dogs or you would not have made these comments...Guro, the woman that used to live with him, had what he referred to as "some problems/issues with Johansen"...when she was to let the dog out of the yard...

Of course the dog is not "aggressive", and compared to "civil" dogs coming from Jinopo/ Tiekerhook and breeders trying to produce a "difficult" dog on purpose his dogs are absolutely not hard at all - but this does not mean the dog does not need proper handling/ cannot be dangerous under certain conditions...

I want such a dog because I want it. I am going to use the dog as a pet/ extended family. Why do you have a German shepherd? You don't need it...why don't you have a Border Collie? Because you want it...and that is why I want to have such a dog...


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

I know the dog and the owner well, over many years. We belong to the same district, so in addition to training together, we have been at work during several SAR assignments. I have met Arinna in most situations; at home, in the car, out on assignments, during training, and there has never been any sign of a difficult dog. She doesn’t easily drop her reward, but she never show any signs of defense or would bite, she just hold on to it. 
I also know the breeder well, and thus also know the mother and several siblings of Arinna. Social and nice dogs the ones I have met.

The reason I have a dog is that I work with them, compete with them and they are part of the family. My oldest dog is an approved SAR dog, and has also competed in IPO3. My youngest is just 6 months, and just startet her education as a SAR dog.


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## Einar_Hanssen (Dec 16, 2020)

HHH said:


> I have met Arinna in most situations; She doesn’t easily drop her reward, but she never show any signs of defense or would bite, she just hold on to it.
> I also know the breeder well, and thus also know the mother and several siblings of Arinna. Social and nice dogs the ones I have met.


I know the dog better than you do...

I have never stated that she shows any signs of defense, and if you read my posts carefully then you would already know that this entire thread was about finding a dog from a line that WOULD bite/ have a strong innate defense...and that she was used as an example of a dog that did NOT show sign of defense/ would bite when the handler was screamed at...

She did growl at me once, quite harshly aswell, and I would probably have been bitten if I did not remove myself. This situation occured because I was standing and looking at her while she was eating (in the car). That she did not like...You should try that aswell...try to provoke her...make her bark and get her into a high drive before you give her the food, then you should stand very closely and pretend to confiscate the food and tell her that you will take her food away...Please let me know how this goes


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## MattRandalloK6 (Oct 28, 2020)

My dog is very patient and if I tease him, he won't growl or bite me. I think it's very difficult to provoke aggression in a German shepherd, even the food trick won't work. Maybe my dog feels a lot of affection for me because I took him from a shelter when he was a puppy and he remembers it. Anyway, I think that this is the best breed of dog and I am glad that I have such a friend who will never betray me. By the way, I thought you might find this interesting..when I get stuck at work, my Jackie gets very bored and scratches doors, so I was looking for information on how to solve this problem, and found the Learn about pet blog with interesting and useful content. It's great that there are such communities and blogs where you can find the answer to any question and not bother your vet too often.


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