# Moving to Arizona - *Sigh* Again with the "Bully Breed" stuff



## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

So, it looks as if we are moving to Arizona, and we're already having issues due to our GSD.

Seems I should have researched, but either way, we are moving there anyhow.

We are getting the "You can't rent our house because our state says every GSD is a BAD GSD"

So, in a completely unrealistic and forced hand kind of way, we have had to register our dog as a service dog. 

It was so dumb too, the real estate agents are now trained it seems to *hint hint* *nudge nudge*, "If your dog was a service dog, or that other classification, then you would be OK".

So, to the doctor I went, since I have legitimate anxiety issues, treated with medication to this point, to explain that my dog cues on my anxiety and panic attacks and comforts me, which he does anyhow, because he has a HUGE heart, and empathy.

Anyway, just wanted to vent. I hate being one of those people, but it seems my hand was forced.

Booo Arizona! Booo!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ImJaxon said:


> It was so dumb too, the real estate agents are now trained it seems to *hint hint* *nudge nudge*, "If your dog was a service dog, *or that other classification, then you would be OK".*


I don't understand what that means. Are you talking therapy dog?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't understand what that means. Are you talking therapy dog?


Possibly an Emotional Support/Service Animal (ESA)....


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I just wouldn't be able to lie like that. It sounds like you are struggling too


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think, in some way, every dog that you have a good relationship with, can be considered an emotional support dog. Without any formal training Deja preforms tasks for me to help with my back; she picks up stuff so I don't have to bend down, she steadies herself when I have to get up from a chair so I can lean on her without her jumping up like "Oh boy, are we going outside?" (her usual response when I get up). So in that regard you are not lying but you are in a grey area maybe? If you label him as a SD, make sure he behaves like one so you are believable and not possibly ruin it for others. Good luck in AZ. Hope the temps are not too high where you go. In Phoenix, from what I have heard, you cannot walk them from 10.00 AM - 4.00 PM in the summer due to the heat. Anyone correct if I am wrong.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Hope everything works out well for you.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't understand what that means. Are you talking therapy dog?


They have another classification called Emotional Support Dog.
Yes.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Yeah it sucks that it's ignorance that forces this stuff on people. Discriminating against a whole breed of animal is not only unfair, but affects the communities perspective.

I mean, I have legitimate anxiety that I can see a therapist for, and of course get the letter. I don't want to do that.

The fact that I am forced to do this, so no one can discriminate against my very friendly GSD, is ridiculous.

Even our cat kicks our dogs butt. Haha. He goes running away and hides. lol.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

I’d been seeing a doctor for years about my anxiety and depression, she knew my passion for animals and the beneficial effects they have on health so it was an easy decision for her to write me a letter for an ESA. 

If you pursue this make sure the letter is written in a manner to say emotional support *ANIMAL* and you would benefit from having this animal with you *AT ALL TIMES*. This will allow you to bring your dog on flights and apply the letter to another animal if necessary.

Also, don’t let people shame you on this; this is a doctors decision on whether they think you need an ESA. People will often say it is just a way to get around rules and there’s no real reason, but living with anxiety or depression is horrible and no one should be able to take away a source of relief.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> I think, in some way, every dog that you have a good relationship with, can be considered an emotional support dog. Without any formal training Deja preforms tasks for me to help with my back; she picks up stuff so I don't have to bend down, she steadies herself when I have to get up from a chair so I can lean on her without her jumping up like "Oh boy, are we going outside?" (her usual response when I get up). So in that regard you are not lying but you are in a grey area maybe? If you label him as a SD, make sure he behaves like one so you are believable and not possibly ruin it for others. Good luck in AZ. Hope the temps are not too high where you go. In Phoenix, from what I have heard, you cannot walk them from 10.00 AM - 4.00 PM in the summer due to the heat. Anyone correct if I am wrong.


Yah, we're already living in California desert, so our temps are very aligned with AZ for those brutal 4-5 weeks of the year.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I'll trade your 4-5 weeks of heat for our usual 4-5 months of snow, ice, and freezing Temps.


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## melissajancie (Dec 22, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> I'll trade your 4-5 weeks of heat for our usual 4-5 months of snow, ice, and freezing Temps.




Me too! We have had the worst winter in the 16 years I have lived in Salt Lake City. Of course it doesn't help that I work in the mountains and live in the mountains. The valley isn't so bad but this is the first year we have lived up in the mountains and I am sick of the snow!


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## melissajancie (Dec 22, 2016)

Dracovich said:


> I’d been seeing a doctor for years about my anxiety and depression, she knew my passion for animals and the beneficial effects they have on health so it was an easy decision for her to write me a letter for an ESA.
> 
> If you pursue this make sure the letter is written in a manner to say emotional support *ANIMAL* and you would benefit from having this animal with you *AT ALL TIMES*. This will allow you to bring your dog on flights and apply the letter to another animal if necessary.
> 
> Also, don’t let people shame you on this; this is a doctors decision on whether they think you need an ESA. People will often say it is just a way to get around rules and there’s no real reason, but living with anxiety or depression is horrible and no one should be able to take away a source of relief.



I second this! I have been living with PTSD for so many years. I have anxiety attacks and panic attacks out in public on a regular basis to the point where I go to work and come straight home. I am literally scared to go out anymore.

My GSD has been trained as a PTSD service dog and he arrives tomorrow. I am anxious, nervous, and excited all at the same time and my blood pressure is so high right now because I can't seem to remain calm. I need to take some medication but I know it will just make me pass out and right now I have too many things to do to get ready.


Living with these mental issues is horrible. I would give anything to be "normal" but I am not and I don't share this with many people at all but it seemed appropriate to let you know that I "get it".


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

ImJaxon said:


> So, it looks as if we are moving to Arizona, and we're already having issues due to our GSD.
> 
> Seems I should have researched, but either way, we are moving there anyhow.
> 
> ...


Sorry but this makes me really angry. You don't turn your dog into a service dog because you can't find a house to rent with your pet. That is not how it works, and that is just the sort of behavior that is causing a major problem right now. 

Regulations that no one wants and needs are springing up as a result of this type of stuff.

I understand you actually have anxiety, but are you disabled by it? Because the laws allowing ESAs and SDs are to protect disabled people.

You need to understand that there is a huge difference between an ESA and a SD...and you REALLY need to understand the impact a decision like this has on people relying on service dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

ImJaxon said:


> Yeah it sucks that it's ignorance that forces this stuff on people. Discriminating against a whole breed of animal is not only unfair, but affects the communities perspective.
> 
> I mean, I have legitimate anxiety that I can see a therapist for, and of course get the letter. I don't want to do that.
> 
> ...


No you are not forced to do this. And trust me. Every time you slip up and mis use service dog/ therapy dog/emotional support dog, it really does matter. Your decision does not just impact you. Because of people making decisions just like this, psychiatric service dogs are now classified differently than any other type to fly and people have to provide letters disclosing things about their disability that should be protected by HIPAA.

You don't get a letter stating your dog is an ESA or SD because you chose to move to a place that is unfriendly to your breed. You do that because you are legally disabled and relying on said dog.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Sorry but this makes me really angry. You don't turn your dog into a service dog because you can't find a house to rent with your pet. That is not how it works, and that is just the sort of behavior that is causing a major problem right now.
> 
> Regulations that no one wants and needs are springing up as a result of this type of stuff.
> 
> ...



It's that or rehome the dog:shrug:


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

seriously, they just need a paper to show the real estate agent. they didn't say they were going to be taking the dog in starbucks. i guess they could always drop the dog off at a kill shelter instead.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think a true emotional support dog should be separated into its own classification. Saying your dog is a service dog, and that is all you have to say, protects your privacy. You do not have to say that you have heart disease or diabetes or whatever other actions service dogs do for people. 

But if you say your dog is an Emotional Support Dog, it is a huge stigma, because half the people think your are trying to get something for your dog that you don't deserve, and the other half look at you like you have two heads and an AK47 and are headed to McDonalds to take everybody out. 

Mental/emotional illnesses are real. Most people with them are functioning in the world, and you probably would never know. Maybe one should require a prescription for a service dog. Once you have the prescription, you can have a little tag for the collar like a tag for your car that gives you the right to park in a handicapped spot. That would eliminate the cheaters, and protect the privacy for people who need the dog. 

Yes, there are a lot of people out there that fall somewhere on the MSD-V or whatever that is called. But they do not all NEED a dog. Certainly a lot of them enjoy dogs, and some would benefit from caring for a pet. That doesn't mean it should be allowed in the cabin of a plane, or in apartment buildings where pets are not allowed. Those that need an emotional support dog to function in society, should have it called a service dog, and be done with the designators.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

scarfish said:


> seriously, they just need a paper to show the real estate agent. they didn't say they were going to be taking the dog in starbucks. i guess they could always drop the dog off at a kill shelter instead.


It's all good. I just don't respond to people like that. I'm a former LEO and I have extensive training and experience with MWD, as well as our dog's work with K9 officers from the LAPD. I don't let anyone get me riled up. It's the ridiculous laws that force otherwise law abiding and respectful citizens into their ridiculous funnels to make problems go away. I'm certainly not going to be bullied for owning what a state in our country carelessly label's a "bully breed".

I won't have any issues, or use for the classification outside of making my problem go away for being discriminated against.

Everyone has an opinion, I just don't have to respect it, but it's theirs to have.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

selzer said:


> I don't think a true emotional support dog should be separated into its own classification. Saying your dog is a service dog, and that is all you have to say, protects your privacy. You do not have to say that you have heart disease or diabetes or whatever other actions service dogs do for people.
> 
> But if you say your dog is an Emotional Support Dog, it is a huge stigma, because half the people think your are trying to get something for your dog that you don't deserve, and the other half look at you like you have two heads and an AK47 and are headed to McDonalds to take everybody out.
> 
> ...


Yes, my doctor said that no one can even ask me why I have the classification. All you say is "My dog provides a medical service." End of story. Doc said no other questions are lawful, like "What medical need do you have?" Etc.

I've had severe panic attacks and have dealt with anxiety since I got out of the military, so it's not a far stretch for me to see the shrink and have my dog trained to alert. That said, I don't plan on abusing this or parading our guy around in a vest that says service dog. LOL. That would be silly.


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## sanjo (Feb 22, 2017)

Sorry to hear about your circumstance.

Unfortunately it's not JUST German Shepherds that are 'blacklisted' by a lot of insurance companies.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...14-dog-breeds-blacklisted-insurance-companies

It's a good toilet read.

Hope everything works out for you guys.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GatorBytes said:


> It's that or rehome the dog:shrug:


No it's NOT that or rehome the dog. Give me a break. All of us who own dogs particularly breeds that fall on any sort of blacklist have a responsiblity to plan accordingly. I have moved MANY times with service dogs, SDiTs, and PET dogs, none of whom I pushed into some grey area to get them to pass

Wink wink, nudge nudge realtors need to be educated, not encouraged.

Lots of people have medical conditions but don't qualify for an emotional support animal or service dog because they are not disabled by their condition. Maybe OP is legitimately disabled, I have no idea. But they stated that they were forced to do this and they felt kind of bad about it. That is a big indicator that you are doing something wrong.

I don't feel bad about using my service dog or my public access rights. I never bend the rules. I traveled with him a few weeks ago. There was a pet fee at the hotel. I told them up front he is a service dog in training and does not yet meet the legal definition of a service dog. They chose to waive the pet fee which was nice but I didn't lie just to get them to waive a pet fee. It wouldn't have been ethical.

By the way what they are legally allowed to ask you is "Are you disabled, is the dog trained to mitigate your disability, and what tasks is it trained to perform"

"It provides service" is not a sufficient answer


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

scarfish said:


> seriously, they just need a paper to show the real estate agent. they didn't say they were going to be taking the dog in starbucks. i guess they could always drop the dog off at a kill shelter instead.


Look, asking someone to not bend the definition of the ADA to suit their purposes is SO far off from saying "drop your dog off at a kill shelter". 

It is not one or the other, it just isn't.

It's how OP started this that is all wrong. Realtor says it just needs to be a service dog, so I had my dog called a service dog. That is everything that's wrong with the whole scene in a nutshell and truly disabled people using SDs are suffering because of this in so many ways. I am one of them


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Look, asking someone to not bend the definition of the ADA to suit their purposes is SO far off from saying "drop your dog off at a kill shelter".
> 
> It is not one or the other, it just isn't.
> 
> It's how OP started this that is all wrong. Realtor says it just needs to be a service dog, so I had my dog called a service dog. That is everything that's wrong with the whole scene in a nutshell and truly disabled people using SDs are suffering because of this in so many ways. I am one of them


I could get a doctor to give me a prescription for a service dog. Not a problem. I don't because I don't NEED one. I have conditions. I think many of us hesitate to go that final step, and accept a handicapped sticker for our car, or a service dog designation for our dog, even though we have a real condition, that the dog does help with. 

It sounds like that is the case with the OP. The dog does serve a medical purpose. It does not sound like an Emotional-support-Dog. It sounds like it has a function beyond having a pet is nice and I feel better having a pet. 

In any case, it just isn't up to me to judge. It is up to her and her doctor.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

ImJaxon said:


> It's all good. I just don't respond to people like that. I'm a former LEO and I have extensive training and experience with MWD, as well as our dog's work with K9 officers from the LAPD. I don't let anyone get me riled up. It's the ridiculous laws that force otherwise law abiding and respectful citizens into their ridiculous funnels to make problems go away. I'm certainly not going to be bullied for owning what a state in our country carelessly label's a "bully breed".
> 
> I won't have any issues, or use for the classification outside of making my problem go away for being discriminated against.
> 
> Everyone has an opinion, I just don't have to respect it, but it's theirs to have.


Most of what I stated is law, not opinion. You don't HAVE to respect or listen to either.

But your decisions do effect other people.

Per ADA "The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."

Your dog performing untrained comfort behaviors does not count as a task. Furthermore, lots of GSDs respond to owner's anxiety because they feel uncomfortable about it, and are trying to make themselves feel better.

Regarding housing "The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."

Your issue is breed discrimination, not disability discrimination. You are using one to deal with the other.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

selzer said:


> I could get a doctor to give me a prescription for a service dog. Not a problem. I don't because I don't NEED one. I have conditions. I think many of us hesitate to go that final step, and accept a handicapped sticker for our car, or a service dog designation for our dog, even though we have a real condition, that the dog does help with.
> 
> It sounds like that is the case with the OP. The dog does serve a medical purpose. It does not sound like an Emotional-support-Dog. It sounds like it has a function beyond having a pet is nice and I feel better having a pet.
> 
> In any case, it just isn't up to me to judge. It is up to her and her doctor.


I agree with you. I did not want to do this, but since there are ways for me to satisfy the requirement that I have, and I have a legitimate reason and medical condition to do so, I'm going to take advantage of it. It's my right after all.

We are on the same page.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Your issue is breed discrimination, not disability discrimination. You are using one to deal with the other.



So there is breed discrimination. Then what are they supposed to do? Is this a job transfer? Do they give up their dog or job? As someone put it, this is about finding a home. 
I rent. DO you know how flippen HARD it was to find a place that I could A) afford and B) allow my dog.
My friend the good luck charm sold my landlord on us...I was out of time. And I would have been looking at rehoming him then had this not come through.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

selzer said:


> I could get a doctor to give me a prescription for a service dog. Not a problem. I don't because I don't NEED one. I have conditions. I think many of us hesitate to go that final step, and accept a handicapped sticker for our car, or a service dog designation for our dog, even though we have a real condition, that the dog does help with.
> 
> It sounds like that is the case with the OP. The dog does serve a medical purpose. It does not sound like an Emotional-support-Dog. It sounds like it has a function beyond having a pet is nice and I feel better having a pet.
> 
> In any case, it just isn't up to me to judge. It is up to her and her doctor.


I have profound hearing loss and have trained my dog to alert to the stove timer, phone chime, alarm ect.. and I'd like to add more like retrieving dropped things. I can have a service dog and have had that conversation with my doc, but like you say, we don't to move forward. I Could see circumstances that could push me to take the next step.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

melissajancie said:


> I second this! I have been living with PTSD for so many years. I have anxiety attacks and panic attacks out in public on a regular basis to the point where I go to work and come straight home. I am literally scared to go out anymore.
> 
> My GSD has been trained as a PTSD service dog and he arrives tomorrow. I am anxious, nervous, and excited all at the same time and my blood pressure is so high right now because I can't seem to remain calm. I need to take some medication but I know it will just make me pass out and right now I have too many things to do to get ready.
> 
> ...


I noted in red above the important part of this statement. The OP is undermining true service dogs in my opinion.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Arizona Has Banned Breed Discrimination Laws
This is the only the first link that came up from 9 months ago, stating that "Arizona has just become the 20th state to completely do away with breed-specific legislation — laws that ban or otherwise regulate dogs by breed."
Not the same story the OP is stating. As to a landlords preference, I would not allow pets if I had rental properties. I would be doing it to make a (gasp) profit, not as a charity.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But all you need is a emotional support dog to allow admittance into rental property that does not allow dogs. Or is that not true? Is that a state by state thing? 

Ksotto, I think that one can train their own service dog. It sounds like the OPs dog is trained to help during an episode. A dog does not need to be trained by any special program, doesn't require any certification to be a service dog, from what I understand. Of course, I could be wrong.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> But all you need is a emotional support dog to allow admittance into rental property that does not allow dogs. Or is that not true? Is that a state by state thing?
> 
> Ksotto, I think that one can train their own service dog. It sounds like the OPs dog is trained to help during an episode. A dog does not need to be trained by any special program, doesn't require any certification to be a service dog, from what I understand. Of course, I could be wrong.


Selzer, Emotional Support Animals are allowed in no pet housing per the Fair Housing Act under these circumstances:
-the person is legally disabled
-a doctor or licensed mental health professional supports that the ESA would benefit the disabled person.

an ESA is an untrained animal. They do not have public access rights. They are allowed to fly in the cabin of an airplane with prior notice to the airline and a current letter from a licensed mental health professional.

This is where a LOT of abuse happens (airplanes), because these scam organizations abound where you can pay to get your letter and then fly your pet without paying a fee. This is exactly what caused psychiatric service dogs to be classified seperately according to the Air Carrier Access Act and now those dogs have to be declared to the airline 48 hrs in advanced with a letter from a physician or mental health professional. This is invasive and unfair, psychiatric service dogs that are task trained and public access trained are legally no different than any other service dog but now are subject to this treatment because people brought fake service dogs and fake ESAs onboard and the airlines were forced to act to get it under control (which it still isn't by the way)

That is exactly the point I am trying to make: when people bend these rules it gets out of hand. Not from just the one person, but every single person who reads this thread and says "hey, I could get my dog into no pet housing if I just tell my doctor he is a service dog!" is one dog closer to more strict rules making life more difficult for disabled people who truly rely on these animals.

This extra docmentation was not a thing when I was partnered with my first dog, and now it is, thanks to people who probably thought they weren't cuasing any harm and not impacting anyone else. 

States are working on new legislation as we speak to address this issue. The laws were designed to help disabled people and they will do that less and less as people take advantage of them


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> I could get a doctor to give me a prescription for a service dog. Not a problem. I don't because I don't NEED one. I have conditions. I think many of us hesitate to go that final step, and accept a handicapped sticker for our car, or a service dog designation for our dog, even though we have a real condition, that the dog does help with.
> 
> It sounds like that is the case with the OP. The dog does serve a medical purpose. It does not sound like an Emotional-support-Dog. It sounds like it has a function beyond having a pet is nice and I feel better having a pet.
> 
> In any case, it just isn't up to me to judge. It is up to her and her doctor.


Unfortunately doctors are not educated on these laws or issues for the most part. Many, many doctors and other health care professionals don't know the legal definition of a service dog vs an emotional support animal and wouldn't recognize fraud. Many are willing to write letters in cases where it is not legitimate and it is just ignorance.
@selzer you asked if the ESAs in housing thing was state by state, no these laws are all federal. The Americans With Disabilities Act protects the rights of disabled people to enter places of public accommodation accompanied by a trained service dog, the Fair Housing Act protects their rights to housing with the service dog.

Alerting can be a task but it should be trained. Generally, behaviors that any dog just offers that has never been purposefully trained does not fit the definition of a task. If the dog offers a natural behavior then the owner or trainer can shape that, reinforce it, and proof if under different circumstances to make sure it is a true task.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am agreement that I find this wrong. Very very wrong. It's unethical. We should never be encouraging someone to pretend to have a service dog. It's just wrong. 

The fact that the person has now justified it by saying "wellllll he does help me" should just show them how wrong it is. There would be no need to justify otherwise.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> I could get a doctor to give me a prescription for a service dog. Not a problem. I don't because I don't NEED one. I have conditions. I think many of us hesitate to go that final step, and accept a handicapped sticker for our car, or a service dog designation for our dog, even though we have a real condition, that the dog does help with.
> 
> It sounds like that is the case with the OP. The dog does serve a medical purpose. It does not sound like an Emotional-support-Dog. It sounds like it has a function beyond having a pet is nice and I feel better having a pet.
> 
> In any case, it just isn't up to me to judge. It is up to her and her doctor.


My parting thought, yes it is up to OP because all of these laws were designed to operate on an honor system. So they can and apparently will do what they want to do. But just because you can does not mean you should.

I see that this post is a bit grey because OP does have anxiety. I'd be the last person to say someone who legitimately has an ESA or SD should be denied housing or should not protect their rights.

However, OP stated from the beginning that the discrimination was not against them but their dog's breed, and the dog was not recognized as an ESA or a SD before now, they got the idea from their unethical realtor.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Having owned "black listed" breeds most of my adult life...

What the OP is doing makes me incredibly uncomfortable. It hurts people who really do need the dogs. 

As far as not finding housing because of breeds. Oh well. That's a consideration you keep in mind before getting the dog in the first place. It's no big secret that gsds are often on dangerous dog lists and are black listed. If you rent don't get one. If you have a job with potential moves don't get one. 

Yeah I get that stuff happens and situations change over a decade, but this is stuff you need to keep in mind and always have a just in case plan for.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Selzer, Emotional Support Animals are allowed in no pet housing per the Fair Housing Act under these circumstances:
> -the person is legally disabled
> -a doctor or licensed mental health professional supports that the ESA would benefit the disabled person.
> 
> ...



The red quoted is how my line of thought is also. If the OP has legitimate issues that qualify them and their dog, more power to them. But don't come on here complaining about landlords and using excuses as an end around solution to a problem.


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## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

I agree with everyone that you shouldn't call your dog a service dog or such if it's not. I think it's awesome that a person in need has a dog trained to perform tasks that helps them. Basically in a place of business that title says your dog behaves well and there is no worries about that dog doing any damage or becoming aggressive towards other customers or employees. I used to waitress in a pizza restaurant and I had a customer who had a seeing eye dog with her, it was a gsd, but I was comfortable around the dog because I knew the dog being a service dog wasn't going to react to me moving around with trays and such. That's the key word, TRAINED. Lots of businesses probably would allow dogs, but, there are people who would bring in a dog that acts like a butthead! That's where it ruins it for the people who do need a service dog. I bring my dog into home depot (it's pet dog friendly) she's very well behaved in there, few people thought she was a service dog because she behaved well. I did tell them no she's not a service dog, just my companion. People calling their dog a service dog when the dog doesn't know how to act in public is what does the damage.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Because of people cheating the system and representing SD in a bad light the government will eventually step in. Maybe they will ban privately trained dogs requiring all dogs to carry papers that they came from a "legitimate" SD training organization. Maybe they will require the owners to prove the dog is well trained and needed. Either way, it will mean far fewer people, with a real need for these dogs, will have access to SD either due to costs, supply or due to the hoops they have to jump through. The idea that someone's selfish reasons for declaring their pet an SD or ESA could result in more veterans with PTSD killing themselves infuriates me. :angryfire:


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i see how what the OP is doing can hurt other people that need service dogs. if she was putting a vest on the dog and taking it into restaurants and it misbehaving. i don't think any of you even read that she's not doing that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

scarfish said:


> i see how what the OP is doing can hurt other people that need service dogs. if she was putting a vest on the dog and taking it into restaurants and it misbehaving.* i don't think any of you even read that she's not doing that.*


Well if it helps ... I did see it. :smile2:


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would do the same thing (if it meant giving her up or not) without misusing the SD status to take her to places where no pet dog can come.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Wait, so you can't have a GSD in Arizona?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Wait, so you can't have a GSD in Arizona?


That ... is not what they said?? 

The "OP" said BSL, against GSD's in AZ. "Unexpected" hassle in finding available housing "becasue" they "happen" to have a GSD. NO idea why"AZ" did that ... maybe "dog owning tools" ... like warm weather and flock to AZ ... I don't know?? We got lots of dog owning tools out here in "NV" but we don't ban "Breeds???"


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I hated renting with pets. So glad we finally have our own place. I avoided getting a GSD until we bought our house because most of the rentals we looked at either banned breeds or specified no dogs over 30-lbs. I had a 5-lb papillon at the time, and we moved about every 1-2 years. It was always hard to find a decent house/apartment. Several of our landlords actually had no pet policies, but when I talked to them and introduced them to my dog, they made exceptions. Once I had to sign an agreement stating I wouldn't replace my dog if something happened to him. Of course I was in Pennsylvania at the time, not Arizona. 

OP, is there legislation banning GSDs from rentals in the whole state or are you just finding lots of apartments that ban GSDs? How does your dog behave in public? You might find a landlord willing to make an exception if you talk to them, let them meet the dog, and/or have references for your dog's temperament (vet or trainer)? I also usually offered my previous landlord as a reference. Do you think your dog could pass a Canine Good Citizen (CGC) test? You might have better luck talking with landlords of smaller properties rather than the huge apartment complexes.... anyway, I hope you find a place.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I can only assume everything the op is saying is on the up and up and that their dog has provided a service. If this is so, the only problem I see is them not recognizing the need and being proactive. If the info is not on par then that would change everything.

Question, what if your service dog developes an issue and becomes washed.... Say at 5 years old and you start over with a new dog. Is either dog still protected under the ADA? Could you be removed from housing due to this?


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

sebrench said:


> I hated renting with pets. So glad we finally have our own place. I avoided getting a GSD until we bought our house because most of the rentals we looked at either banned breeds or specified no dogs over 30-lbs. I had a 5-lb papillon at the time, and we moved about every 1-2 years. It was always hard to find a decent house/apartment. Several of our landlords actually had no pet policies, but when I talked to them and introduced them to my dog, they made exceptions. Once I had to sign an agreement stating I wouldn't replace my dog if something happened to him. Of course I was in Pennsylvania at the time, not Arizona.
> 
> OP, is there legislation banning GSDs from rentals in the whole state or are you just finding lots of apartments that ban GSDs? How does your dog behave in public? You might find a landlord willing to make an exception if you talk to them, let them meet the dog, and/or have references for your dog's temperament (vet or trainer)? I also usually offered my previous landlord as a reference. Do you think your dog could pass a Canine Good Citizen (CGC) test? You might have better luck talking with landlords of smaller properties rather than the huge apartment complexes.... anyway, I hope you find a place.


the problem is they are moving from out of state. they can't simply drive around looking for for rent signs and call the landlords directly. hence they are having a real estate agent handle it.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

scarfish said:


> the problem is they are moving from out of state. they can't simply drive around looking for for rent signs and call the landlords directly. hence they are having a real estate agent handle it.


I would assume it is feasible to call even if they aren't going to visit. When we moved from Pennsylvania to Tennessee, we visited TN for a week to look for a rental. We had the dog, and we had a hard time finding a place. We were getting very frustrated by the end of the week when newspaper and online ads were not yielding any results. We lost one townhouse b/c the landlord husband/wife team would not come to agreement about our dog. Then we almost rented a house that was double what we wanted to pay (with extremely high pet fees and what seemed like a shady landlord). The day before we signed with the bad landlord, we found the duplex that was perfect for us while we saved up for our current house. There was a lot of pressure to find a place though b/c we only had a week!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Julian G said:


> Wait, so you can't have a GSD in Arizona?


I posted a link earlier, Arizona has outlawed breed banning effective last summer. So what this person is talking about I have no idea.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> I posted a link earlier, Arizona has outlawed breed banning effective last summer. So what this person is talking about I have no idea.


the realtor said they might not be able to find them a house to rent with a dog especially a GSD. did you read the thread?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

No, SD washouts and retired SD'S are not protected under ADA.

The ADA does not protect dogs, it protects a disabled person's right to public access with a service animal.

Fair Housing Act covers housing

Air Carrier Access Act covers flying.

Service Dogs in Training have different rights than SD'S in some circumstances. Many states have laws saying that an SDIT accompanied by a trainer has the same public access rights as a SD, so that they can be trained.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

scarfish said:


> the realtor said they might not be able to find them a house to rent with a dog especially a GSD. did you read the thread?


Yes, I read the thread, the title mentions breed banning. No one owes renting a home to anyone with a dog(unless that dog qualifies) Everyone thinks they are special enough to push the rules to accommodate them. The OP should go to their physician if they have legitimate reasons for a service dog. But don't come here whining and expecting special treatment just because of where you want to live.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> I would do the same thing (if it meant giving her up or not) without misusing the SD status to take her to places where no pet dog can come.


But @Wolfydog what you are saying, and what OP is saying, is EXACTLY THAT: misusing the SD status to take the dog where no pet dog can come. In this case, where no pet GSD can come because the rental units do not allow that breed.

Here are just some of the issues I can think of with this: what are we we renting, a house, a condo, a house with very close neighbors? Who knows. Service dogs are trained and held to very high standards. What happens when this pet behaves in a normal German Shepherd pet type way and makes all other service dogs look bad and makes this landlord think "I need to talk to somebody about being forced to have this dog in my housing unit" what happens when neighbors complain to the landlord, this dog barked at me or my little fluffy. Why is there a GSD here? Landlord says, oh that is a service dog. Makes legitimate service dogs look bad. And these are EXACTLY the situations that cause the government to get involved and make stiffer rules and who has to jump through hoops to abide by them? Legitimate service dog users, that's who.

So, OP started off saying their dog was "registered as a service dog" 

#1, there is no such thing. Service dog registries are scams, pure and simple. But nonetheless, OP came on here stating they were calling their dog a SD to get a rental that didn't allow GSDs. At some point in the discussion

There is no right or acceptable reason to call your dog a SD if it isn't one.

It is totally acceptable for people to owner train their own Service Dog. I am doing it for the second time. But if you do that it is your responsibility to know the legal definition of service dog, emotional support animal, know the laws pertaining to them all, and abide by them. OP does not have a clear understanding of any of this, that much is clear. 

What OP eventually described their dog doing in response to their anxiety basically does meet the definition of an emotional support animal. But not a SD as they said. And apparently they have already called it a SD to the landlord in which case all above problems still apply.

Second problem, OP says "I would not take the dog out in a vest, that would be silly", but would they have before this whole thread occured? Now that they are in no pet housing maybe they think hey, I could take my dog out to dinner with me instead of leaving it in a crate. Blur one line, easy to blur others.

And lastly, OP saying "I just registered my dog as a service dog, BUT I wouldn't take the dog out in a service dog vest, that would be silly" Tells you absolutely everything you need to know about this situation. If that's how they feel about the dog, they are not disabled and the dog is not performing essential tasks to mitigate their disability. 

It is very hard for me to go out without a working dog. Because they perform essential tasks that mitigate my disability. It isn't silly. It's necessary.

And all of you people who think you can just "get away with it" need to understand how that impacts the community those laws were designed for


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ksotto333 said:


> Yes, I read the thread, the title mentions breed banning. No one owes renting a home to anyone with a dog(unless that dog qualifies) Everyone thinks they are special enough to push the rules to accommodate them. The OP should go to their physician if they have legitimate reasons for a service dog. But don't come here whining and expecting special treatment just because of where you want to live.


Well .... in the "OP's" defense they clearly stated 
*" ... just wanted to vent." * Least ways "I" saw it?? Good enough for me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Where is the applause button for Thecowboysgirl?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sorry guys but one more thing. Just so you understand how the whole Emotional Support Animal works

Ssay you are disabled by mental illness and living in no pet housing. Your therapist things a dog would really improve your depression, give you a reason to get out and get fresh air. Companionship. Ect. You are disabled by your depression and a shut in. Your doctor/therapist/ect writes you a letter stating their credentials and that you meet the legal requirements for having an ESA in no pet housing. You bring this to your landlord and ask for a reasonable accommodation to have the ESA. They are required to approve it, but it is only good manners to ask for the reasonable accommodation and wait for approval to go get the animal.

By the way, ADA usually trumps breed specific legislation for public access but I am not at all sure how BSL and Fair Housing Act work. 

For instance if you tried to adopt a Breed We Are No Longer Allowed to Mention on This Board in Miami Dade county or somewhere they are banned. Not sure how that would go over. Maybe the law says you can have your ESA pibble in your apartment but what about when you are out walking it on the streets of Miami and animal control sees you? ESAs have no protection other than being allowed in no pet housing.

So that may be a problem even here.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Well .... in the "OP's" defense they clearly stated
> *" ... just wanted to vent." * Least ways "I" saw it?? Good enough for me.


And to make excuses on why they were going to circumvent the rules, and to mention BSL which isn't applicable and to make it seem like a legitimate reason.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Sorry guys but one more thing. Just so you understand how the whole Emotional Support Animal works
> 
> Ssay you are disabled by mental illness and living in no pet housing. Your therapist things a dog would really improve your depression, give you a reason to get out and get fresh air. Companionship. Ect. You are disabled by your depression and a shut in. Your doctor/therapist/ect writes you a letter stating their credentials and that you meet the legal requirements for having an ESA in no pet housing. You bring this to your landlord and ask for a reasonable accommodation to have the ESA. They are required to approve it, but it is only good manners to ask for the reasonable accommodation and wait for approval to go get the animal.
> 
> ...


 Just wanted to say ... I don't think "anyone" has a dispute with your "knowledge on the subject or statements of "Facts." 

Most of us (speaking for myself) "Pet People" have no idea what any of this "stuff" is about??? All we see is a lot of "Fake Service" dogs running around out there and just think "WTH??" And let it go at that. The "OP" did say "abusing" what they did is not there intent. Good enough for me ... to bad they did not come to "NV" ... where nobody cares ... no fleas or ticks either ... just saying.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm a bigger fan of the seizure alert dog that has never indicated for seizures because it hasn't ever happened. He's 100% on the money accurate with no false positives. An excellent record that is a testament to incredible training.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ksotto333 said:


> And to make excuses on why they were going to circumvent the rules, and to mention BSL which isn't applicable and to make it seem like a legitimate reason.


Ah well to me "Vent" means ... uh "Vent???" No "expectations" of fact required?? If "Thecowboysgirl" felt compelled to respond with "facts" no problem here. I say vent not not job well done.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I'm a bigger fan of the seizure alert dog that has never indicated for seizures because it hasn't ever happened. He's 100% on the money accurate with no false positives. An excellent record that is a testament to incredible training.


Well then ...if we are going to lower the bar ... I'm going to nominate my White Boxer (Struddell) as the best "Drug Detection" dog ever!! In our ten years of uh no training, no experience and uh yeah ...not looking??? We never found a single "Drug Smuggler!" Our record of success was also perfect!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ha ha I'm pretty sure statistically being that you're from NV he missed quite a few perps


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Ha ha I'm pretty sure statistically being that you're from NV he missed quite a few perps


Well ... "Struddell" was a girl. 

But her non "Pro" record is just as good as "Dayton's" official "Drug Detection Dog." It turned out the home right on our corner was a "Drug House???" Apparently they kept a pretty low "Profile???" NHP did a raid several years ago ... I had no idea??? My neighbor who's home all the time saw it happen.

But the rest of the story ... that house ... was right across the street from the "Dayton Police Department" sub station!! 

It was big news out here when "Dayton's" only "Drug sniffing dog was retired. City decided the dog was not worth the cost?? But to be fair the substation by me was fairly new, so I have no idea if our former city DDD was ever here??? Sooo "maybe" not a fair comparison??? NHP shows up all the time there with there "Blacked Out" K9 SUV's. Rocky and I keep our distance but it's more about tickets ... being close to LE ... make me nervous. But the 951 (Porsche) is down sooo .....


Still ... "Bomb Detection" that would be an exciting career path for a trainer and an American Line Boxer! Most likely ... fortunately for me I'm not a LE K9 handler ... my "Breed/Line" of choice would have most likely resulted in a short career path???? :surprise:


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Sorry but this makes me really angry. You don't turn your dog into a service dog because you can't find a house to rent with your pet. That is not how it works, and that is just the sort of behavior that is causing a major problem right now.
> 
> Regulations that no one wants and needs are springing up as a result of this type of stuff.
> 
> ...


Yes, there is a difference between an emotional support animal and a trained service animal. And I think there are places an ESA may not be admitted, as opposed to a trained SA.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Selzer, Emotional Support Animals are allowed in no pet housing per the Fair Housing Act under these circumstances:
> -the person is legally disabled
> -a doctor or licensed mental health professional supports that the ESA would benefit the disabled person.
> 
> ...


You sound very knowledgeable about these issues. A trained service animal is one thing. An ESA is entirely another, since they are not specifically trained to perform a task. Is an ESA permitted in rentals that have pet bans, or breed bans, or a 20 pound limit?


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## Spetzio (Oct 8, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Sorry guys but one more thing. Just so you understand how the whole Emotional Support Animal works
> 
> Ssay you are disabled by mental illness and living in no pet housing. Your therapist things a dog would really improve your depression, give you a reason to get out and get fresh air. Companionship. Ect. You are disabled by your depression and a shut in. Your doctor/therapist/ect writes you a letter stating their credentials and that you meet the legal requirements for having an ESA in no pet housing. You bring this to your landlord and ask for a reasonable accommodation to have the ESA. They are required to approve it, but it is only good manners to ask for the reasonable accommodation and wait for approval to go get the animal.


+1. I see ESA getting tossed around so much that it's almost outstayed it's welcome where I am. It's hard enough having to admit the need for one, let alone have people giving you the stink eye or asking a bunch of unwarrented questions. Please pardon the huge exposition - this isn't directed at you, thecowboysgirl, more just I felt like sharing my personal experiences.

An ESA isn't just a pet that makes you feel better - it's something that drastically improves your quality of life. A year ago (march 11) I lost my previous dog of 14 years. He wasn't an ESA, but he was the first dog I'd lost, and I had no idea how much I'd depended on him until he was gone. My anxiety came back. I had countless panic attacks throughout the day, I had to quit my job, give up on social activities. It affected my eating - as in I literally had trouble eating food because it felt like it was getting stuck in my throat. I lost a lot of weight, became a shut-in because having panic attacks outside of my 'safe zone' (where I still had them anyway) made them 100x worse. I ended up in the hospital one night because of a really bad attack. I was (and still am) 24 and my life took a complete nosedive beyond anything I'd experienced. I started medication in early June as a last resort at the request of my therapist and physician. It was slow to work. I had nothing to look forward to, I couldn't visit friends or have them visit me for fear of them seeing me like that, I cried every single day. I lost a lot of hope. What was the point of continuing if all I had to look forward to each day was just more of the same? It was really, really rough for a long time. Before I got Sawyer just back in January, the medication had started to help me a bit. I still had the anxiety, but it had been tempered enough that I had started to rebuild my life. I got another job, was able to go out again, etc. The two months after getting him, however? These have been the most incredible two months I've had in a long time. I have absolutely no anxiety now. I have no problems eating, I can go out anywhere because having something else to focus on besides myself has given me the confidence to be myself again. I'd lost that for a long time. And after all that, he's not an ESA. He's a puppy, and while we're working very hard on training (at home and through our trainer), I'm still hesitant to have my therapist write that letter, despite the fact that she has highly recommended it based off of the changes she's seen. Because of the stigmas surrounding ESAs and the unfortunate occurrences of fake ESAs, it makes me afraid to take that last step. And that sucks.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

maxtmill said:


> You sound very knowledgeable about these issues. A trained service animal is one thing. An ESA is entirely another, since they are not specifically trained to perform a task. Is an ESA permitted in rentals that have pet bans, or breed bans, or a 20 pound limit?


I'm only semi knowledgeable because I started using a service dog almost 10 years ago. She and I were team certified in 2008 after working our butts off on public access and task training together. Using a service dog means you have to know the laws and the ettiquette.

I'm training a dog to replace her now. I welcome anybody to correct me if I quoted anything wrong on here...most of it I am repeating as best as I can remember from the last time I read it.

As far as I know, Fair Housing Act allows ESAs in no pet housing when they are needed by a disabled person and have the support and a letter of a medical treatment professional.

I know I have read that ADA trumps BSL when people are using a pit bull service dog in BSL areas. I don't know how that applies to ESAs and housing. I would assume that the federal law would override the BSL but that would only be for the housing itself. You have to walk the dog, take it to a vet, ect., and ESAs have no special rights outside the home


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Spetzio ESAs do not require training and your puppy probably already meets the definition of an ESA if you are disabled. 

I'm not sure if maybe you are confusing ESAs with psych service dogs. 

And let me say again, I couldn't be more enthusiastic for people who are legitimately disabled and benefit from ESAs and SDs to have them. 

Sometimes I think the biggest thing people miss is that just because you have any old condition does not mean you are disabled. Lots of people have anxiety and aren't disabled by it, or have other medical conditions that aren't disabling.

"the FHAA, in section 3602 (h), defines handicap, with respect to a person, as: (1) a physical or mental impairment which substantially limits one or more of such person’s major life activities; (2) a record of having such an impairment; or (3) being regarded as having such an impairment.[7] The term "major life activities" has been interpreted broadly to include those "activities that are of central importance to daily life," such as "seeing, hearing, walking, breathing, performing manual tasks, caring for one's self, learning, speaking, and reproducing."


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## Spetzio (Oct 8, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Spetzio ESAs do not require training and your puppy probably already meets the definition of an ESA if you are disabled.
> 
> I'm not sure if maybe you are confusing ESAs with psych service dogs.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know they don't, but a well-behaved dog makes a much better impression than one who is not.  And no, I do understand the difference. It's more of a personal decision and honestly, a fear of being judged. I don't take him anywhere he can't go, but I still have that fear that I'll be viewed negatively. :shrug: 

Also I hope it didn't come across as me disagreeing with you. I agree with everything you've said so far! And especially what you just stated about people having the conditions but not being disabled by it. There's definitely a big difference.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

My son is an Iraq combat veteran, and a Wounded Warrior  He has a small poodle that is his emotional support animal. He is helped emensely by the presence of this tiny canine. He specifically chose a small non-shedding breed. I was shocked one time when he was standing by the ladies room in the local Walmart, waiting for his wife to leave the restroom - a nasty woman made a comment about service dogs being fine except for THOSE OF US WHO ARE ALLERGIC TO DOGS (she shouted that last part). So hateful.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you have a service dog, or ESA that is that particular breed that is banned most often as well as here, and your job moves you to an area where there is a breed ban, it doesn't make sense that you would have to give up that dog which is needed for a disability. 

I guess there are two ways you might use the housing law for service or ESAs. One being, the need for an animal comes up while you are in housing that does not allow pets. The other would be having such an animal and having to move somewhere and having difficulty finding housing because you have a necessary animal. 

I guess I see a service animal as an animal that needs to accompany you wherever you go, because you don't have a part-time disability. Doctors are pretty smart people and pretty educated, they also are licensed, have to preserve your confidentiality, and have to work within the law. If a doctor says that a service animal is necessary/helpful for your condition, than that should be enough.

I think it should be a requirement to have a doctor's prescription to take a service animal where dogs are not generally allowed. 

I don't know enough about ESAs. It seems anyone pretty much could get a doctor or therapist (also licensed by the state) to approve this, if approached properly. 

When the system is done on an honor-basis, well, it is going to be abused. Take away handi-capped signs for cars, and just make that an honor system. Yep some of us will park away from the door, to leave the spots for handicapped individuals, but lots of people will not.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'm only semi knowledgeable because I started using a service dog almost 10 years ago. She and I were team certified in 2008 after working our butts off on public access and task training together. Using a service dog means you have to know the laws and the ettiquette.


LOL ... "Semi knowledgeable???" The bar looks pretty high to me??? I'll just stick with what me and my "Goofy" Breed do best ... "not finding Drugs and Bombs!" 

But if someone "needs" info on all this "stuff" ... I know you and Fodder have it covered, I'll send them your way ... good enough for me.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip don't forget Deb. She and Fodder both probably know more about service dogs than I do.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> If you have a service dog, or ESA that is that particular breed that is banned most often as well as here, and your job moves you to an area where there is a breed ban, it doesn't make sense that you would have to give up that dog which is needed for a disability.
> 
> I guess there are two ways you might use the housing law for service or ESAs. One being, the need for an animal comes up while you are in housing that does not allow pets. The other would be having such an animal and having to move somewhere and having difficulty finding housing because you have a necessary animal.
> 
> ...


Selzer BSL is just one reason why I believe strongly that people should not select Pits as SDs or ESAs. It's one thing if you already have a pet that you classify as an ESA, but if you already got a pit bull as a pet then you have to be prepared to change your life plans to accommodate BSL (much as I was saying for us who have GSDs, they aren't labs, and when we bring one into our lives we must be prepared to make it work with our dogs)

If your job calls for you to move to areas and you have no say about where you go or where you live and must just roll with it,then getting any breed like this is arguably irresponsible.

Labs, goldens and poodles are the top 3 breeds performing as service dogs and are all well suited to be ESAs, so there is no logical reason why your SD or ESA must be a restricted breed. Either way, responsibility is on the human to plan accordingly. GSDs will get less trouble as SDs because it is a breed that people can remember historically filling that role (as opposed to say pit bulls or rottweilers, both of which are out there working as SDs)

Selzer you said it seems like "anyone" could get an ESA approved. Not anyone, any DISABLED person. Again, that is the key word. Trust me, if you are disabled by your condition, you know it, because you struggle to do simple things by yourself or without the help of your "service human" (ask SD people if they use one of these when their dog is unable to work)

It's all about motivation for me. Check your motives. Is your motive to get your pet dog to fly without a fee? Is your motive to get your pet dog allowed to be in housing where its breed is not allowed? Is your motive to make a housing search easier? Is your motive that you cannot function sufficiently on your own and truly need help to get through the day?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Spetzio said:


> Yes, I know they don't, but a well-behaved dog makes a much better impression than one who is not.  And no, I do understand the difference. It's more of a personal decision and honestly, a fear of being judged. I don't take him anywhere he can't go, but I still have that fear that I'll be viewed negatively. :shrug:
> 
> Also I hope it didn't come across as me disagreeing with you. I agree with everything you've said so far! And especially what you just stated about people having the conditions but not being disabled by it. There's definitely a big difference.


 @Spetzio, I know EXACTLY what you mean. The whole thing with SDs and ESAs is pretty out of control right now. I too really struggle with not being sure I even want to use a SD anymore because of it. Having an invisible disability people automatically assume things about you. I find people most often assume I am training the dog for someone else (which I often just let them believe because it is easier),or they think I am a faker. And that is even before you think about the fact that wherever I go with my SD I will likely be sharing space with untrained fakers, some of whom are aggressive toward my dog, it has happened before.

But the bottom line I would say is, if you need it and qualify then don't let anything stand in the way of leading the best and most independant life that you can, with the help of an ESA, SD or whatever best suits your needs.

You are holding your dog to a higher standard than is even required, for which I truly applaud you. If your dog out behaves the other dogs present, it is very likely you will not be viewed in a negative light except by the rare extremely judgemental people and those types can't be helped.

I was on a flight with what i believe was a fake service dog, a bichon in a cape who lunged and snarled repeatedly at my GSD who turned the other cheek and remained professional. The bichon barked the whole flight. My dog never made a peep. At the end of the flight I overheard one flight attendant say to the other "It's easy to tell which one is a real service dog"
@Spetzio let your dog represent you and if anyone judges you past that, it's on them, we can't let people abusing the laws stop us from leading the best lives we can


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

maxtmill said:


> Yes, there is a difference between an emotional support animal and a trained service animal. And I think there are places an ESA may not be admitted, as opposed to a trained SA.


Emotional Support Animals are not trained, for public access manners or tasks. They are only permitted as reasonable accommodation in no pet housing and in the cabin of airplanes IF they meet certain behavioral standards. ESAs do not have any public access rights to accompany disabled people into stores, restaraunts ect.

A psychiatric service dog is NOT an emotional support animal (although they can be both). A psychiatric service dog is a dog who is public access trained, and task trained to assist someone disabled by mental illness.

Examples would be a dog who is trained to guide their handler to the nearest exit of a store if they handler becomes overwhelmed in a crowd and panics. They can basically grab the harness handle, give the command (or the dog has been previously trained to perform this task without cue when the handler panics), and the dog escorts them to safety.

Other examples would be dogs who alert to impending panic attacks or dissociative fugue states by physically touching the handler, maybe a nose nudge to the hand, to alert the handler that they need to take a PRN medication or do exercises taught by the therapist to reduce or stop the panic/dissociation. The dog would have been trained to recognize increased heart rate, breathing, fist clenching, or some other "tell"

These are things the disabled person CANNOT do for themselves, but the dog can, therefore improving independence and function. These are complex tasks trained and proofed over time, not things the dog just does


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> @Spetzio,
> 
> I was on a flight with what i believe was a fake service dog, a bichon in a cape who lunged and snarled repeatedly at my GSD who turned the other cheek and remained professional. The bichon barked the whole flight. My dog never made a peep. At the end of the flight I overheard one flight attendant say to the other "It's easy to tell which one is a real service dog"


To me this is one of the bigger problems facing service dogs, business unwilling to confront poor behavoir. Why did the airline allow this to continue? Being on a plane I understand their options are limited, but moving them should be an option. If business would abide by the rules fakes and even poorly trained service dogs could be removed. If this happened often enough the fakes would dwindled and in the case of ill trained service dogs, they'd need to step up or lose access.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nigel said:


> To me this is one of the bigger problems facing service dogs, business unwilling to confront poor behavoir. Why did the airline allow this to continue? Being on a plane I understand their options are limited, but moving them should be an option. If business would abide by the rules fakes and even poorly trained service dogs could be removed. If this happened often enough the fakes would dwindled and in the case of ill trained service dogs, they'd need to step up or lose access.


It started well before the plane was boarded. The bichon lunged at my dog for the first time in the security line. I did notify the counter at the gate. I told them what the dog had done and why I thought it was not a real dog. I told them that they did have the right to remove it if it were behaving out of control, which it was. They did nothing. I assume because they were afraid of being sued.

This was maybe 5 years ago, and I do believe that there are more businesses cracking down on out of control dogs out of necessity and often to protect legitimate teams.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> It started well before the plane was boarded. The bichon lunged at my dog for the first time in the security line. I did notify the counter at the gate. I told them what the dog had done and why I thought it was not a real dog. I told them that they did have the right to remove it if it were behaving out of control, which it was. They did nothing. I assume because they were afraid of being sued.
> 
> This was maybe 5 years ago, and I do believe that there are more businesses cracking down on out of control dogs out of necessity and often to protect legitimate teams.


I think that is a lot of the problem. Businesses are reluctant to act due to lawsuits and bad publicity.

This hurts the people that need the dogs and it hurts the general public who are forced to deal with the fake service dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Chip don't forget Deb. She and Fodder both probably know more about service dogs than I do.


Ops ... my bad!! 

Yes of course ... pretty sure Deb told us how I belive her (SD Wl GSD) got her out of a tight spot, out of a store without command ... and two Vets helped escort them out and the dog was unphased with the added assistance!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> It started well before the plane was boarded. The bichon lunged at my dog for the first time in the security line. I did notify the counter at the gate. I told them what the dog had done and why I thought it was not a real dog. I told them that they did have the right to remove it if it were behaving out of control, which it was. * They did nothing. I assume because they were afraid of being sued.*
> 
> This was maybe 5 years ago, and I do believe that there are more businesses cracking down on out of control dogs out of necessity and often to protect legitimate teams.


The laws protect business too. Airports are teaming with cameras and witnesses, something should have been done. The cost of initiating a lawsuit isn't cheap and if the "denied" service dog owner loses the case they could get stuck with the entire court cost. 

Businesses have a duty to provide a safe environment for all of their patrons. Untrained, unruly animals, be they service dogs or fakes represent a hazard. The business could just as easily be sued by their inactions.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> Arizona Has Banned Breed Discrimination Laws
> This is the only the first link that came up from 9 months ago, stating that "Arizona has just become the 20th state to completely do away with breed-specific legislation — laws that ban or otherwise regulate dogs by breed."
> Not the same story the OP is stating. As to a landlords preference, I would not allow pets if I had rental properties. I would be doing it to make a (gasp) profit, not as a charity.


Yeah, it seems that its an insurance company policy and that they are doing their best to scare the **** out of the home owners with policies with them. That is the issue that we are having. The Arizona homeowners are being "bullied" by the insurance companies with homeowners insurance. Maybe they need a good lawsuit to straighten them out. I don't have time for that. I have legitimate issues that I can overlook my pride and finally handle if I'm forced. It appears that being a tough guy with my med issues is pretty much working against me. I'm seeing a psych and doc and I have a very good friend of mine who trains dogs for med alert in SoCal. We are going to go through the procedures, as my issues will likely get worse anyhow with age. The mind goes first in my case.  Maybe all this happened for a reason. I've had debilitating panic attacks and anxiety for years. 

Either way, you all have provided great advice as always. I've been involved with the working dog community for well over 20 years at this point. It's good to keep learning and keep gaining new skills from it.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Nigel said:


> The laws protect business too. Airports are teaming with cameras and witnesses, something should have been done. The cost of initiating a lawsuit isn't cheap and if the "denied" service dog owner loses the case they could get stuck with the entire court cost.
> 
> Businesses have a duty to provide a safe environment for all of their patrons. Untrained, unruly animals, be they service dogs or fakes represent a hazard. The business could just as easily be sued by their inactions.


The business can legally bar the service animal and handler if the dog is disrupting others. It's legal for them to ask you to leave. They would not lose. The company should train their staff better.

Great post.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ImJaxon said:


> Yeah, it seems that its an insurance company policy and that they are doing their best to scare the **** out of the home owners with policies with them. That is the issue that we are having. The Arizona homeowners are being "bullied" by the insurance companies with homeowners insurance. Maybe they need a good lawsuit to straighten them out. I don't have time for that. I have legitimate issues that I can overlook my pride and finally handle if I'm forced. It appears that being a tough guy with my med issues is pretty much working against me. I'm seeing a psych and doc and I have a very good friend of mine who trains dogs for med alert in SoCal. We are going to go through the procedures, as my issues will likely get worse anyhow with age. The mind goes first in my case.  Maybe all this happened for a reason. I've had debilitating panic attacks and anxiety for years.
> 
> Either way, you all have provided great advice as always. I've been involved with the working dog community for well over 20 years at this point. It's good to keep learning and keep gaining new skills from it.


Do you think the insurance companies pulled names out of a hat or do you think they based their decisions on dog bite statistics by breed as supplied by sources such as medical facilities, ERs, Mayo Clinic, CDC, etc.?


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

the landlord's insurance company has nothing to do with it. they don't have to carry insurance to cover what ever damage a tenant's dog or child cause someone else. most states the only time the landlord can be liable is if they had previous knowledge the dog has attacked someone and refused to remove it or the landlord themselves at anytime harbored it. take for walks, feed, watch it.

"One of the reasons landlords are reluctant to rent to tenants with dogs is fear that if the dog injures someone, the landlord, as well as the dog's owner, may end up paying.
It’s very rare, however, for a landlord to be found liable for injuries inflicted by a tenant's dog. "

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/dog-book/chapter4-7.html


landlords use insurance and risk because they don't feel like paying to fix chewed molding out of their security they were planning on keeping anyways, damage or not.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Spetzio said:


> Yes, I know they don't, but a well-behaved dog makes a much better impression than one who is not.  And no, I do understand the difference. It's more of a personal decision and honestly,* a fear of being judged. I don't take him anywhere he can't go, but I still have that fear that I'll be viewed negatively*. :shrug:
> 
> Also I hope it didn't come across as me disagreeing with you. I agree with everything you've said so far! And especially what you just stated about people having the conditions but not being disabled by it. There's definitely a big difference.


There are Facebook pages dedicated to judging others and their service dog. Some are pretty pathetic, many posters sound as fraudulent as those they're trying to expose. It's been a while, maybe FB has shut some of them down.


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## Spetzio (Oct 8, 2015)

Nigel said:


> There are Facebook pages dedicated to judging others and their service dog. Some are pretty pathetic, many posters sound as fraudulent as those they're trying to expose. It's been a while, maybe FB has shut some of them down.


I hope they've since been shut down. :/ That all just feeds into the 'I don't want to have to deal with this' feelings. It's unfortunate that some people have so much time on their hands that that is what they choose to do with it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Selzer BSL is just one reason why I believe strongly that people should not select Pits as SDs or ESAs. It's one thing if you already have a pet that you classify as an ESA, but if you already got a pit bull as a pet then you have to be prepared to change your life plans to accommodate BSL (much as I was saying for us who have GSDs, they aren't labs, and when we bring one into our lives we must be prepared to make it work with our dogs)
> 
> If your job calls for you to move to areas and you have no say about where you go or where you live and must just roll with it,then getting any breed like this is arguably irresponsible.
> 
> ...


Oh, I don't know. I have a few "disabilities" for which service dogs are used regularly. But I don't want to go that route, because I do not find the dogs necessary every step of my way. And yes, I wouldn't want to ruin it for those who do need a service dog. I think there are people out there that do qualify for a service dog, as much as anyone else does, but are not willing to go that step, because they can manage without. 

As for poodles, labs, and goldens. Poodles bite me, I'll never have one. Sorry. Labs are actually a lot of work, and goldens have more grooming than I would want if I was already trying to manage a physical disability. Bird dogs aren't my think anyway. I don't see any advantage a lab or golden has over a shepherd. They are just as big, just as hairy, they have as many health concerns and have as much bad-breeding going on.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I hear collies do quite well too.

I mean, labs, goldens and poodles aren't my cup of tea either. Why I chose to use another GSD. But I am a homeowner and there is nothing in my foreseeable life why a GSD would be a problem for me.

I will say I have had a lot of labs in my house lately and I can see why they are so popular for this. The ones I have had all had this in common: they kennel well, they don't care a bit who is handling them, eat like little piggies no matter who feeds them or where, not super creative but really willing to learn, generally just like everybody and with proper breeding and socialization ought to be quite safe out and about ect ect.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I hear collies do quite well too.
> 
> I mean, labs, goldens and poodles aren't my cup of tea either. Why I chose to use another GSD. But I am a homeowner and there is nothing in my foreseeable life why a GSD would be a problem for me.
> 
> I will say I have had a lot of labs in my house lately and I can see why they are so popular for this. The ones I have had all had this in common: they kennel well, they don't care a bit who is handling them, eat like little piggies no matter who feeds them or where, not super creative but really willing to learn, generally just like everybody and with proper breeding and socialization ought to be quite safe out and about ect ect.


Yep, boring. I'm sorry, I know a lady that has 4 labs, and they're nice dogs, they really are, but they aren't shepherds. My sister is going to let her kids get a dog when they are 12, and she mentioned labs, and I want to give her the book, Marley and Me. The kids and I are dead set on a shepherd for them, but she is the boss. And some people just have it in for interesting critters. 

My dogs should have some sort of protected classification because the keep me out of prison. When I think of all the banks I might of robbed if I wasn't worried about who would take care of my dogs if I were incarcerated... Ah well. I do know it is no joking matter, just trying to make it a little lighter. 

I am also a home-owner, and before I bought a female GSD, I purchased my own place. When I was under 10, an older childless couple who basically loved all the neighborhood kids, well their landlord needed a house for their son, so after living there for 20 or 30 years, they were forced to move. They just had a small poodle, so that wasn't an issue. But evenso, I knew that renting with a large dog might be tough, so I purchased as soon as I could. It is not the nicest place, but I can manage the payment on my own. And no one can tell me I have to get rid of the dogs. 

Of course, employment decisions are dependent on how they effect the dogs. Right now, I am on second shift and need to do no traveling for work (save the commute). That works best for me. Accepting a position that had, say, 30% travel, wouldn't work for me. I'd have to turn it down. Moving to Florida where the alligators are is another, "Nope, sorry, not going there." Anyway, my family is here. I have no desire to move for a job, but the dogs do play into that decision.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nigel said:


> There are Facebook pages dedicated to judging others and their service dog. Some are pretty pathetic, many posters sound as fraudulent as those they're trying to expose. It's been a while, maybe FB has shut some of them down.


I'm not sure I even know what this means. Pages dedicated to outing fakers or just being nasty to other service dog handlers whose dogs aren't perfect?

Unless you are one of the lucky people who get a fully trained program dog, us owner trainers are out there working hard to get our dogs to be the best they can be and they will be quite imperfect along the way


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'm not sure I even know what this means. Pages *dedicated to outing fakers or just being nasty to other service dog handlers whose dogs aren't perfect?*
> 
> Unless you are one of the lucky people who get a fully trained program dog, us owner trainers are out there working hard to get our dogs to be the best they can be and they will be quite imperfect along the way


Both.. I started training my girl to alert to different alarms/chimes about 2 years ago. While searching for service dog info I came across those FB pages. Pretty sad really.


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## LBethO (Mar 18, 2017)

Good thinking. My dogs are my life. My son was killed several years ago. Our last GSD stayed with me 24/7 with her eyes on me and our now 13 year old Golden male made constant body contact.. It sounds like yours is truly providing service? Don't let anyone judge your decision to claim your precious dog as a NECESSARY support. As I can tell when one of ours has something going on with it, they certainly clue into your needs.


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