# Looking for a Bite Sleeve



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I do select PPD training for select clientele, and I'm looking for a bite sleeve. Something decent, but doesn't cost an arm and a leg (pun intended). I've never bought into the theory some manufacturers push about needing a puppy sleeve, then an intermediate, and finally an advanced sleeve. Of course, they want you to buy more sleeves!

One sleeve in need of replacement is old school and includes no reinforcement whatsoever, only padding, and I've used it successfully on different dogs of different ages, stages and breeds over twenty years. It has no bite bar, no interior handle, nada. Works great, but is a bit tricky ensuring that your arm is in the right place. I mean, if a dog bites just right, the heavy padding protects you from the punctures, but your concern becomes one of a crushed forearm bone. I always looked at it from a perspective that at least I knew how good of a bite I was getting!









Another sleeve is low-profile, and includes a hard plastic inner reinforcement. This is nice, but I don't like the fact that the dog hits something so hard underneath. I'm afraid of teeth breakage, and I don't like the gums bleeding that inevitably results with a solid bite from a solid dog.

After doing some research over this weekend, it seems that bite sleeves have a come a LONG way, and their are a host of "inventions" to choose from. Obviously, many of them are made as pure money-makers with little real world applications, and a burlap bag and a little imagination can easily displace others, but some do indeed seem to offer some benefits.

Now, IME I've never cared for "stages" in sleeves, and one sleeve has always done the job from beginning to end. But, then I came across this "x-sleeve". While some of the Sweikerts also look nice, I'm not sure if this one is a better bang for the buck. The principle of design sounds great, especially since it can supposedly be used for different stages, but I was hoping someone might have some feedback and/or experience with it, lest I fall for a contraption that's all marketing hype.

Here's a link that has good pics and even a video of how it works:

http://www.fordogtrainers.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=262

Of course, I am open to other suggestions, as well, especially if they are backed by real experience.

TIA

P.S. Since PPD is now only a small percentage of what I do, I would be open to a used sleeve, too, provided it's decent and in decent shape.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We purchased a x-sleeve of their old design about a year and a half ago. The thing was totally trashed within just a few months of use. The plastic supports all snapped. Not at all happy with the quality. A sleeve should last for YEARS! We have a 10yo Gappay that's still going strong, and a couple of Schweikerts with tons of bites that are still in great condition. The x-sleeve was a piece of junk. 

They changed the design a few months ago and the newer design x-sleeve is better made. We have one of those too, but it's a right arm so it doesn't get a lot of use so can't really comment on it's durability. Looking at it, it should definitely hold up better than the old one did, but ours hasn't been used enough to know if that's the case or how well it would stand up compared to the other brands.

IMO, for durability and long working life, hard to beat a Schweikert. But those are hard bite bar sleeves, not soft by any means. I've also heard very good things about Red Line K9's compression (non-bite bar) sleeve.


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks for the reply, Chris. Yes, I figured as much on the older x-sleeve design, and expect more from the newer design.

I take it you pretty much use the Schweikerts, then? What about size and bulk comparisons, and weight and mobility, compared to that newer x-sleeve. I ask because the x-sleeve looks quite bulky compared to the Schweikerts.

Which models do you use of the Schweikerts? Any of these? (The link also includes an air compression model. Is this similar to what you are referring to in the Red Line?)

http://www.dogsportgear.com/bite_bar_trial_sleeves.htm

Thanks again


----------



## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

Considering your sleeve experience and the types of sleeves you have used I can understand why you feel there is little value to staging the sleeves the way all manufacturers now do. For PP it also isn't as much of an issue as you are talking about a little used skill in what is really a family pet. For the more professional biting dog whether it be for police or sport where the quality of the bite may come into play as well as the dogs ability to show strong bites for a long working life the use of multiple bite surfaces and different hardness is critical. We need to build the dog confidence on the bite to encourage a full calm hard grip that is required in our sports and desirable on the street as well.

If you are looking for the occasional use sleeve to bite test an infrequent dog with some personal protection purposes then the sleeve you had was about the best choice. Something like this:

http://hortonsquality.com/Belgian-Ring-Sleeve-Levels-1-to-4.html

Adding a leather or plastic gauntlet underneath to increase your comfort level might be worth while but not strictly needed.

As for the X-sleeve I wouldn't bother unless you are willing to risk getting a poor quality sleeve. The "Tri Level Bite Bar Regulation To Adjust Proper Training Stage" sounds like a great idea until you realize that in order to adjust it you have to remove the sleeve cover each and every time. Anyone whose changed a sleeve cover can tell you that makes this feature way more trouble than its worth. Basically without that feature it is just another bite sleeve made out of a different material than most. The material is nice and makes for a light sleeve when dry but it is pretty absorbent and can soak up a ton of water and weight when conditions are damp. I don't think this sleeve would suit your purposes better than any other and I still don't think it will be as durable as the best.


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Hi, Tim,

Thanks for chiming in here, and providing that link.

FWIW, my initial foray into training was actually training patrol dogs, so I do have experience with dogs that work on a daily basis. When I started in the business there really was no such thing as levels of sleeves, and we devised our own methods to effect "stages" out of one sleeve, creating different bite surfaces, etc. So, my statement about the "graduating" type sleeves being more hype than helpful should've been clarified better.









I agree that if you are working many dogs often, as you apparently do, it would be more convenient to stock a bunch of different levels of sleeves. In my particular case, I work one on one with my clients, and I do not train for sport, and no longer train patrol dogs. What I really need is a sleeve that will work for an adult dog, at intermediate to advanced levels, being that I already am experienced at devising "add-ons", if necessary, and have other devices for puppy training.

That ring sleeve looks interesting, but that pic does not show enough, nor is there a good description on that site, so I'll research it more. But, I need more than something to just bite test. I actually train the dogs to bite, not bite and hold for apprehension, as I would if I was training a patrol dog, but I train for a good, hard and hopefully debilitating bite, you know what I mean?

As far as your statement about the x-sleeve, THANK YOU, because in all the pics it looked like the base material was some type of pressed wool, or something, and that kind of concerned me, along with the price being SO reasonable for a multi-stage sleeve. Kind of like a too good to be true sort of thing. So, again, thanks alot for sharing. I think I will pass on the x-sleeve.

But, what did you mean about "..as the best"? Which sleeves do you personally recommend? I know Chris mentioned the Schweikerts, so I assume you meant they're the best, in your opinion? I don't think I said they were bad in my OP. The thing about shopping for these sleeves is that I would pretty much have to buy them blind. So, I'd really appreciate it if would you be willing to help me answer a few additional questions:

1) Are they all reinforced with plastic barrel?
1a) If not, are the ones without reinforcement thick enough to prevent puncture and withstand bite pressure the likes that comes from a GSD?
2) Are the bite bars different as far as firmness?
3) Are the sleeve covers thick enough for a dog to actually bite into the covers only, or are their covers designed merely to provide a surface, and the dog's teeth always penetrate the sleeve cover?
4) Which model(s) of the Schweikerts would you think I should CONSIDER for my current particlar needs?

Of course, things can change for me, and I may need to adjust my equipment, so don't worry, I'm not asking you to make a decision for me, just looking for some feedback from someone who's got experience with them, you know what I mean?

For example, someone said the Gappay inner grips are foam and tend to wear out. Sad. You also mentioned absorbency of the x-sleeve, and Chris mentioned the lack of longevity of the first model. And, that type of experience is invaluable to me, especially since I have no means to check all this stuff out locally, youi know what I mean?

Thanks again, for any additional info you think might help me in my quest.


----------



## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> But, what did you mean about "..as the best"? Which sleeves do you personally recommend? I know Chris mentioned the Schweikerts, so I assume you meant they're the best, in your opinion? I don't think I said they were bad in my OP. The thing about shopping for these sleeves is that I would pretty much have to buy them blind. So, I'd really appreciate it if would you be willing to help me answer a few additional questions:


As far as best we get into different category of best. I like and purchase the Schwiekert sleeves because in my experience they are extremely durable. In that way I have found them to be the "best" I don't like to have to repair a sleeve and I put a lot of bites on them so I wanted durable above all else. I don't feel they are the most comfortable though, or the most versatile. I just haven't had a chance to explore all the options as having a solid base of durable sleeves that will always work has been a priority for me. We got the X when money was a huge priority and it was worth experimenting to save a couple of bucks in the short term, but never again.



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot1) Are they all reinforced with plastic barrel?


 Virtually all bite bar sleeves are leather (some nylon) covered plastic barrels with a built in bite bar. The bar may vary in its construction and shape 


> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot1a) If not, are the ones without reinforcement thick enough to prevent puncture and withstand bite pressure the likes that comes from a GSD?


 Soft sleeves tend to built like bit suites with handles in the arms they will prevent puncture but not pressure you have to make sure you arm isn't in the way if you don't like pressure. The bit bar sleeves resist both pressure and puncture quite well.


> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot2) Are the bite bars different as far as firmness?


 They differ in firmness and shape depending on the sleeve you buy and its purpose. This could be an entire topic so I will come back to bit bar differences later.


> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot3) Are the sleeve covers thick enough for a dog to actually bite into the covers only, or are their covers designed merely to provide a surface, and the dog's teeth always penetrate the sleeve cover?


 The dogs teeth should penetrate into but not through the cover, though it is not thick enough for the full length of the teeth they will clamp onto the sleeve but their teeth should not penetrate it. Covers get well shredded so they are an easily replacable item and can also vary in thickness and material.


> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot4) Which model(s) of the Schweikerts would you think I should CONSIDER for my current particlar needs?


 This is the million dollar question, and takes us back to the bite bar differences listed above.

First, I'm not really going to address Schwiekert sleeves in particular. They are just a durability preference of mine and it is quite possible that any brand would work just as well as most company's today offer a full line of features in their sleeves. There used to be much greater functional differences brand to brand now each brand makes different models so brand preference has become more of an individual thing.

Different bite bars. First they vary in length Some are shorter and only in the middle of the sleeve others run the full length, not really much difference here from your point of view and you would only want different ones for very few specific training problems. Second some are dished in the center making that the easiest place for the dog to get a good grip, this can help center a dog that has a tendancy to go for the hand or elbow, but again not really important from your perspective and also more of a specific purpose item. Third some will be quite soft, usually considered and intermediate step they allow the dog to really sink his teeth in and feel the compression, this might be good for you but these wear more quickly than the others, and a strong biting dog and do a nice job of destrying an intermediate sleeve. Then there are integrated bite bar sleeves with a more smooth transition between the sleeve and bit bar than is found in more traditionally constructed sleeves. This to me is more of an engineering feature than a practical training one, it might be nice but not needed. Finally there is the air compression sleeve this is an air chamber bite bar sleeve that compresses when bitten but is still fairly firm, honestly this might be the best bet for your purposes, however I haven't owned one......yet (its on the list) so I can't actually say for sure how well it would work or how long it would last, though I have heard good things from several sources using different brands about this type of design on both counts.

Shown here: http://www.dogsportgear.com/schutzhund_air_compression_dog_sleeve.htm 

Now that you are in as big a quandry as the rest of us......


----------



## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I've found Ray Allen or Hard Dog Requisite to be really good sleeves. Can take a very hard bite and will last. What in the world do you mean you teach dogs to bite not bite and hold like a patrol dog? 

DFrost


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Hey, thanks for the info on the Ray Allen and Hard Dog lines. Prices are comparable, but Hard Dog seems to have a better choice in a cuff/sleeve cover as far as the "hard" sleeves are concerned.

It looks to me like their "soft shell" line means their hard sleeves, like the Shorties, must have a barrel that's reinforced with a plastic that gives a bit, hence their use of the word "compress" in some of their text. That would be nice if they did, because that would enable me to initially use one sleeve for several levels. Their chart leads me to believe that the Shorty Lite might meet that requirement, and it sure would be nice if that were true. I also noticed that Hard Dog's sleeves appear to lack a distinct bite bar, and that their designs are geared toward more of a full mouth bite. I don't know if that's true, but it's hard to tell by the pics on their site. Not that there's anything wrong with that. In my book, all philosophies merit kudos in some way, you know what I mean? I just called Hard Dog and left a message because their site is not quite up to par as far as promotion and sales are concerned.

Regarding the Ray Allen technology of CoolMax linings, do you believe that's something even worth considering? Of the two brands, which do YOU prefer?

Do you, by any chance, have any experience on hard sleeves that incorporate "compression" type bite bars that Tim and I were talking about above, the likes of what Schweikert and Ray Allen make? If so, any thoughts or opinions you'd like to share?

Regarding my style of bite training, I prefer not to discuss such issues on this forum because my past experience has shown that there are too many people on here that can't think outside the box, and differing opinions tend to give rise to such people pooh-poohing philosophies that don't match theirs. Kind of sad, because that's exactly the kind of thinking that squashes new and revolutionary inroads in all kinds of technologies. Imagine where we'd be today if Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Graham Bell and the like succumbed to the disdain expressed by "experts".

Thanks again for the input on sleeves. Feel free to elaborate upon your initial thoughts on these sleeves. After all, the more information I can gather, the better armed (no pun) I'll be in making my decision. And, as Tim put it above, it sure would be nice if this "quandry" I'm in results in the acquisition of a sleeve that will meet my current needs, and at least tie me over for awhile.


----------



## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I don't buy sleeves that have bite bars. I prefer the dog "feel" the muscle moving underneath. A bite bar is just a static piece of the equipment. I like both brands, honestly I don't have a preference of one over the other. I have a few of both. My full suit is from Hard Dog, I really like it. My hidden sleeve is from Ray Allen. I have a mixture of sleeves. As to the bite, I was just asking what you meant. We certainly do go for the full mouth, deep bite and hang-on. In the police business, it lessens your liability considerably. It also has it's tactical advantage. At any rate, I was just curious. No big deal.

DFrost


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I agree with your philosophy on feeling the arm under the sleeve, and presume the Hard Dog sleeves have no bite bar. What is under the padding of the sleeve on the Hard Dog sleeves? Is it just thick padding, then, or does it indeed have a plastic reinforcement?

For police work, yes, I agree with what you said. With personal protection, I personally believe that the strategy needs to be different because situations can easily include multiple agressors, and depending upon the situation, a dog biting and holding onto just one can result in serious injury or even death to the dog and/or the person/people it's protecting.








With that said, I am NOT suggesting that it's always prudent to expect a dog to protect in all situations, either, just mentioning one practical application. Thanks for understanding my perspective on different philosophies.


----------



## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

It is a plastic shell, but the dog's teeth aren't going to get to the shell unless the external pad is completely shredded. they are replaceable with saves on cost. I prefer the old sleeves made from retired fire hose but today's handlers just don't want to wear them anymore. You do get considerable bruising.

DFrost


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

*DFrost and Tim*

DFrost, what do you think of the durability of the material Hard Dog uses on their sleeves? Not the cuffs or covers, I'm talking about the material that covers the shell on the sleeves themselves. I spoke to Guy yesterday and I think he said it was a polyethylene, or something. When I commented on the fact that other manufacturers use leather, his response was that Hard Dog does not use leather specifically because leather retains moisture. It makes sense, but I voiced my concern about the durability of the material. His reply to that was, "You'd be surprised how well the material holds up."

What do YOU personally think of that sleeve material?

I like the fact that they make their own stuff, and although it sound like a small company, that can be a good thing, because you can actually talk to them, and they seem to completely stand behind their products.

Tim, how do you feel about the durability of leather on the Schweikerts? Have you had many failures?


----------



## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: DFrost and Tim*

The durability is very good on the Hard Dog stuff. It takes some pretty heavy hits and holds up. I've got some pretty hard hitting dogs. I don't use them with out the cuffs though, that's what cuffs are for to take that abuse. They do stand behind their equipment, although the only problem I had was a suspender breaking on the suit. I called Guy about it, he sent me a new one, no questions asked.

DFrost


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

*Re: DFrost and Tim*

DFrost, thanks for the info again. FWIW, I wasn't planning on using the sleeve without a cuff, I was concerned about how the sleeve material would hold up in the event that a bite penetrated the cuff.


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Hey, Tim, by any chance do you have a Schweikert 5893? As far as I can tell, that is the sleeve that I belive most closely represents what I'm looking for. Something where the arm compresses, with a shallow bite bar that makes it so the dog learns to use its front teeth properly, given my specific application. I want to know if the sleeve is heavy, given that it's a leather barrel. FWIW, the HardDog line is running a close second right now, although I like the fact that it is light weight. Thanks.


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

*Re: DFrost and Tim*

DFrost, I'm on the fence, and was wondering if I could trouble you with a few more questions about the Hard Dog sleeves:

1) What is on the INSIDE of the sleeves? I'm seriously considering the Shorties, but nothing on their website mentions anything, although several quotes on the testimonials page say they're very comfortable. The Ray Allen sleeves have that supposed wicking material, but I'm more concerned about comfort. I like the fact that the Shorties are lightweight, too, but in the end I'd prefer functionality, comfort, and durability over weight.

2) I know I can probably call and get the answer to my question above, but I have another question that I would feel bad asking Hard Dog about, which is why I figured I try and kill two birds here. Do you happen to know if the Hard Dog shorties will accept standard cuffs from another manufacturer, or do the Hard Dog sleeves only accept their own proprietary cuffs? The reason I ask is that it would be nice if I had the option to use a bite suit material cuff instead of jute, which Hard Dog doesn't seem to make.

Thanks again for your time.


----------



## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: DFrost and Tim*

I think it's just a woven material inside the HD sleeve. They are comfortable. I buy them because they are pretty durable and I have some pretty hard hitters. I don't know about whether or not different cuffs would fit. 
In truth, I really don't see all that much difference in sleeves except for how hard a particular sleeve is. I don't buy sleeves with bite bars. That means the center part of the sleeve is going to take considerable amount of wear.

DFrost


----------

