# Need info on breeder/dogs



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

http://www.moores-hideawaykennels.com/services.html
These two especially:
Moores Stormy Midnight Star
Moores Santana Savage

I won't put them down, but I can find nothing on the dogs of theirs I searched. And the "Champion Bloodlines" Of theirs as well:


> Quote: Champion Bloodlines
> CH Woodside Nestlequik Merwestyn HT
> CH Surigo Kalandria V Windigail
> CH Rio Valles Nestles Crunch CD
> ...



Like I said, I won't put them down, but the kennel looks iffy, to my standards anyway.

If anyone could help me find out WHO these dogs are, I'd like that.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Well, if you are simply looking for a $100-$200 BYB puppy... go for it. But if you are going to do that, why not go with rescue??

Champion "bloodlines" mean nothing. Many BYB puppies has Champion "bloodlines" if you go back a few generations.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

"We believe in letting you choose the puppy or better yet letting the puppy choose you."

Not a good sign.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think the "champion bloodlines" spiel is misleading. Some of those dogs are well-known/popular and I don't think any were bred or owned by the kennel posted. I'd be more interested in what THEY are doing with their OWN dogs.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I, personally, am not into these dogs, but a close family member is looking into them. 

I thought that as well, Lies... Did you guys take a look at the actual kennels? I see two dogs in one (with outdoor access, but the kennel is about 4'X4') and you can see a 3rd dog outside of the door. 

I tend to shy away from anyone who breeds two or more breeds at the same time anyway... And a few of their boxers look like Ambulls


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I think the kennels themselves look really nice. I wouldn't worry about that at all. I just don't see any real goals for breeding except to make a buck.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

Just my opinion, but there are dozens of very high quality breeders in NC and especially VA. I would recommend your friend look somewhere else.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomI think the kennels themselves look really nice. I wouldn't worry about that at all. I just don't see any real goals for breeding except to make a buck.


Really? I would think the kennels ought to be a bit larger if they dogs are sharing. 

My thoughts as well... Unless they have a horde of info they left out off-site I have to say they aren't the best I've seen.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: WinkinJust my opinion, but there are dozens of very high quality breeders in NC and especially VA. I would recommend your friend look somewhere else.


Would you mind listing a few for me to show them? 
They live here, in Southern Va. I could not find any breeders online for them to browse.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I think if they have ample access to outside runs then a 4'x4' indoor area would be fine. It is bigger than most crates. If they are sharing, then that is a different thing but I didn't notice that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What kind do they want? 

_I haven't dealt with any of these breeders_, but there are some big name show kennels in this area (I've seen these people and dogs all over):
http://www.globalhausgermanshepherds.com
http://www.hausjuris.com
http://www.vondenblauenbergen.com

Also there are some members here with dogs from:
http://www.vondersauk.com


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: WinkinJust my opinion, but there are dozens of very high quality breeders in NC and especially VA. I would recommend your friend look somewhere else.
> ...


PM'd you.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Over the years I have met all of the people from the first 3 Lies posted. If you like the showlines I would say you would do fine with any of these kennels.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank you guys, I will certainly show them


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

http://www.globalhausgermanshepherds.com
http://www.hausjuris.com
http://www.vondenblauenbergen.com

I don't know anything about the first breeder, but I have heard many good things about Haus Juris, and I have a dog from von den Blauen Bergen. Randy is a good guy


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## tstamper (Oct 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DinoBlue
> http://www.globalhausgermanshepherds.com
> http://www.hausjuris.com
> http://www.vondenblauenbergen.com
> ...


I know Globalhaus was the #4 Kennel group at the 2008 North American Sieger Show. And home to VA1 Hoss vom Hirmer Teich


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

When in doubt, don't.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

What I see ( and hasn't been already commented)
Some of those dogs look like with poor pigmentation, nothing in any of them leads me to think they would be good for a show ring, then if they are no working either... why to bother in breeding them?

Liver pups... big red flag for me. Nothing against liver dogs itself, but people purposely breeding livers is people who is only after money in my books. Sorry if it offends someone.

Those boxers look like Am bulldogs because Boxer people shy away of boxers with too much white, as it leads to deafness. Breeding two dogs together with the amount of white as the ones listed on the "upcoming litter" page is something that most good Boxers breeders would avoid.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

I don't care much about color that doesn't have health implications, and pigmentation in gsds doesn't. Other breeds, different story. When color affects sight, hearing, and skin condition, then it is a concern. Otherwise, I go by no good dog is a bad color. But, that said, I went to the hideaway site and wasn't impressed. Where was the mission statement? The health concerns, OFA, Cerf, etc? Why breed these dogs? What do they bring to the table? Therapy? Tracking? Herding? Obedience titles? Alert work? Aide work? What kind of temperament do they have? What kind of energy level/drives? And how do they know that? Any one who has spent any time on this forum knows that there are variations in the breed in temperament, drives and structure. It is not enough, I don't think, to merely state that the German Shepherd is known for x characteristics. What are these particular dogs known for? How are puppies selected for people? I could go on and on. 
I would suggest starting with a list of what you, the puppy purchaser, wants in your puppy and most especially in your grown dog. Then write down what you are willing to do to raise that puppy into that dog. Then start looking for a breeder who produces the kind of dog you want to own and sieve through them for the breeder you feel will work best with you to give you support and information during your puppy's formative years. I looked three years to find my last outside-line dog, and I was completely happy with the dog I found. I got exactly what I wanted, but it wasn't easy, and I talked to a lot of people and looked at a lot of dogs along the way. Then again, I knew exactly what I wanted. A breeder who is close to you so that you can visit them easily is good--but only if they have the right dog. Good Luck, khawk


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> http://www.globalhausgermanshepherds.com


I know Jochen and Cynthia, they have nice show dogs.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

And just for people that are considering some of the Champion Bloodlines in the original post, research the pedigrees. At least one fo these breeders is inbreeding to an alarming extent, and breeding dogs with known serious genetic illnesses. When I was looking for a breeder, a couple of members who have bought dogs from them contacted me to warn me away, (I was looking at working lines, so not a breeder I would have considered, but the breeder in question is in Canada, so I suppose they felt that it might be a kennel that I may have heard about). 

Yes, their dogs were taking the show-scene by storm, but that does not tell the whole story. 

People can PM me if they would like more info.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

http://www.moores-hideawaykennels.com/services.html

This is all that it would take for me to not choose them:

"Our Boxers are CKC Registered." (and they mean Continental...not Canadian)

But I do have to love one of the "breeders" going down a slide in this picture:

http://www.moores-hideawaykennels.com/index.html


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

wow four upcoming litters? even if they are each born a month apart thats a lot of puppies to raise.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

"All puppies that have not been sold are available for viewing. We believe in 
letting you choose the puppy or better yet letting the puppy choose you."

Awesome!


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Is it just me or does Moore's Velvet seem to have short legs on the kennel pictures page on the bottom? Plus, if you look at their male "Niko", his ears were clipped.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD"All puppies that have not been sold are available for viewing. We believe in
> letting you choose the puppy or better yet letting the puppy choose you."
> 
> Awesome!


























That is dangerous!







Ya know, someone might think you were serious !!!!









Lee


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

No links for ANY pedigrees on any of the dogs, nor litters that I could find. No info about Hips/ elbows much less any training or show titles. I used to raise whites, so that doesn't bother me as much as the faded pigment on many of the pups pictured, livers etc... breeding to any other line with these dogs would diminish the quality as far as coat color and such. Actually the nicest looking dog there was the white pup, but that's cause white covers up a lot of color faults. 

If someone just wants a cheap pet ?? Maybe, but I'd keep looking.


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## MHK19GB (Feb 20, 2010)

Branca's Mom said:


> I think the kennels themselves look really nice. I wouldn't worry about that at all. I just don't see any real goals for breeding except to make a buck.


To let you know you all are wrong about me. I wish I did have bucks from my litters. Ninty percent of what I make from my pups go right back into the kennel. Their food, vet bills (Up to this year all my puppies were seen by the vet at 6 weeks old in which the cost of each litter cost me any where from 200 to 300 dollars. If a puppy wasn't acting right for any reason then they would go to the vet and I wonder if you know how much it cost to take a puppy to a urgent care Hospital at 2 or 3 am because you thought something was wrong and your vet isn't available.) meds and nice indoor kennel to keep them out of the elements. My GS would rather be outside in the 10x10 outside kennel. When we do have real low temps outside during the winter then I bring them inside the kennel for their safety. I have a few GS that are afraid of thunder storms so I bring them inside and lay on the floor so they know everything is ok. 
A few of my GS do have Champion BL not any in the last 3 or 4 generations but still they are there so I am not lying by any means. 
I would like to say thank you for the comment about the kennels. I still need some more rooms and of course a bathroom and bedroom so when I am in the kennel with a dame getting ready to whelp she will have my loving hands loving on her to help bring her litter into this world. 
I really think it is wrong for someone to call me a back yard breeder because I am not. I have only 2 breeds and that is Boxers and GS. If one of my dames have trouble whelping then she is not bred again or once they have reached 6 yrs old I get them altered and find loving homes for them which is really hard to do because it is like saying goodbye to your on child. I do not charge alot for my pups as I see alot of breeders charging anywhere from $800. to 1800 for a puppy. When my husband goes to work so do I . I spend at least 8 to 12 hours in the kennel and outside playing with my babies and if one is due to have a litter once she starts showing signs then I start sleeping in the kennel on an air mattress with her beside me. Once she starts digging on the air bed then I let the air out and put it up and then we go to the whelping box and lay beside it and she will get in the whelping box or lay beside me to whelp the pups.
I hope others read this because I want them all to know that I am a hobby breeder but not a back yard breeder. To me there is a fine line that separates the two. I don't drive a nice vehicle I don't live in a nice home but at least it is my home and the home of by babies. To be honest their kennel is alot nicer than my house and I could care less.

If you or someone else have any questions ask me before putting in a comment about my kennel. I am not just commenting about what you said but others too. I am not one to let my babies be unhealthy. You said you wouldn't worry about the kennel well I hate to say that is one important thing to have because if you have them in outside pens living in the elements then there will be all kinds of problems not just for the breeders but pups too.


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## MHK19GB (Feb 20, 2010)

Velvets legs are not short it looks that way because of the angle the picture was taken. Also Niko's ears have not been cut (croped)so don't go making comments about my babies that you do not have proof of. Further more I don't crop my Boxers ears so why would I ever do Niko's????????????????????????


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

First off - I have not looked at the website under current discussion....I have just reviewed the last few posts as the thread seems to have been resurrected 

Regarding and responding to the lasts poster "MHK19GB" - It is obvious you love your dogs. Most people with dogs do love them. And it is commendable that they are cared for properly. 

As a general comment - not directed to anyone....

Everyone defines things a tad differently.

The objective of breeding is to produce sound - both physically and mentally - dogs that are within the parameters of the standard. Color, hips health and temperament evaluated and dogs not used who are not within accepted parameters! Shy, timid fearful dogs - blues, livers whites etc NOT used for breeding....

In my mind - there are several varieties of breeders:

puppy mills - many litters, different breeds, no showing, no credentials of any sort for several generations - some have good facilities, some don't - don't care about the standards, don't care enough to understand and research genetic backgrounds, don't health test. AKC or even United or Continental papers are enough to satisfy their criteria for a breedable dog. Some breed unpapered dogs anyway. 

Backyard breeders - some with many dogs, and litters and some who are not as big, keep their dogs as pets, don't credential or title or health test - just breed them - may use OFA, may use some dogs with titles close up - may have nice kennels - but are not active in any training or competiton with dogs - just breed - some very market savvy people advertise with "best of all worlds combined" type mentality - mixing European and American style dogs. Generally sell pups for much less ..... of course, they don't make as much per litter, so they have more litters! In my opinion, BYB care a bit more about their dogs than puppy mill breeders - but are still not about to work at a program of making or using animals with credentials

Hobby breeders - active in some aspect of dog sport - whether it be AKC conformation, agility, herding, or European style conformation or schutzhund - PSA, ring etc. Have fewer dogs - often related dogs - obvious program when you study the pedigrees of their dogs. Some buy titled dogs to use for breeding, but still use dogs with at least minimal credentials! Certified hips/elbows, at a very very very minimum a CD/CGC even if not a Schutzhund or advanced working title. 

Professional breeders - large facility, profit a goal....Some will do nothing but sell and have literally a dozen or more of dogs on premises....older pups not sold thrown back in the breeding pool. Pups grown out for show and not winning? back in the breeding pool! Sister or brother did well enough, so that is enough justification! Some breeders can have more than 10 litters a year! Some may only have 5 or 6 - but even that is a lot of pups to sell!

Just some food for thought!

This site is filled with people who love the GSD and care about the well being of the breed and those poor unfortunate pups sold who are sold to people who do not care enough for them and the pups end up in shelters and rescued from there if they are lucky - Ideals and standards here can evolve and often start from unknowledgeable to those who are very passionate! 

Lee


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## MHK19GB (Feb 20, 2010)

The dogs each have their on 4x4 inside pens with access to a 5 by 10 run. Most of the time they are in the play yard. If the weather is bad then I leave in their runs.
In cold weather they sleep in their kennel inside with the door closed. I was planning on keeping my GS in side also but they like to be in the kennels outside which is 3 pens that are 10x10 also they get out into their own play yard which is seperate from the Boxers. I could say alot more but I leave it as it is at this time.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

Sorry but you are most certainly not a hobby breeder. What health testing have you done on your dogs? Hips, elbows, eyes, heart, thyroid? And I don't mean "well my vet looked at the dog and it's fine". 

And as for saying none of us know how much it costs to take a dog to an ER vet? LMAO! Please we are the very people that would know. We also know how much the health testing a true hobby breeder does costs.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

The term BYB, to me, is often too generalized and associated with too many negative views. All 3 of my dogs have come from individuals who could be labeled as "BYB". I had no knowledge of the term prior to purchasing them, and have gained a wealth of information since becoming a GSD owner and finding this forum. But before this, finding a breeder in the local paper just seemed the norm to me. But despite this, and not knowing what I know now, I still feel I made good decisions in the purchase of my dogs for the purpose that I wanted them for. I went to the homes of each of these breeders and spent hours sitting and talking with them, viewing the parents, watching the puppies play, examining their living conditions, etc. I asked lots of questions, like how long have you been doing this, where did you get your dogs, what is YOUR criteria in choosing a puppy, etc. However, I never thought to ask about health tests, x-rays, certifications, or titles. I've owned dogs all my life, and more or less went with "common" sense in evaluating the breeders and their pups. With that said, and backing up 5 months or so with the knowledge I carried then, I would not have purchased a pup from this breeder. I don't think she is a bad breeder, I just think she is perhaps new to breeding, and has not spent enough time educating herself or researching the breed to make informed decisions about what is beneficial to the dogs she is breeding and selling. And her price bracket also seems geared towards the uneducated buyer. Her understanding of a "healthy" dog seems geared towards a clean bill from a vet and not what some higher ranked breeders would consider, like genetic issues and HD, development, etc. Knowledge is power, and like myself, I think there is a lot more for her to learn in the "hobby" she's undertaken.


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