# REputable???



## G&Arabella (Dec 11, 2013)

Hey everyone,

Soooo while looking around to find a mate for my Bell, (not to become a breeder but because I want her to have a litter before she is spayed, this way she is complete and does not feel like a part of her is missing) I stumbld upon Von Shiprock shepherds here in the SanTan Valley area in Arizona. Has anyone gotten a pup from them or know them, or can tell me if they are reputable or not?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Is this the puppy who is 6 months old? 

A reputable breeder would not stud his dog out to a female who he did not feel was a good specimen of the breed with hip and elbow OFA testing (or SV) and a brucellosis test, etc. She really does not need a litter to "feel complete".


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you're not going to shatter the dogs dreams by not allowing her to have a litter .


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

are you thinking about buying a dog to mate with your dog
or are you looking for a breeder who has a stud?



G&Arabella said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Soooo while looking around to find a mate for my Bell, (not to become a breeder but because I want her to have a litter before she is spayed, this way she is complete and does not feel like a part of her is missing) I stumbld upon Von Shiprock shepherds here in the SanTan Valley area in Arizona. Has anyone gotten a pup from them or know them, or can tell me if they are reputable or not?


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

I wouldn't breed her just so she "feels complete" dogs don't know any different.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

G&Arabella said:


> not to become a breeder but because I want her to have a litter before she is spayed


If someone allows - by choice or through inaction - a bitch to become pregnant they ARE a breeder.

So you have a to make a choice - do you want to be a RESPONSIBLE breeder (do the health tests to confirm that your bitch is healthy, have her evaluated to confirm that she is breed worthy, study her to find her faults and then study the males to find the one that will compliment her faults but not bring any others, check out potential puppy buyers and be ready to take back ANY of the puppies - at ANY age - if their owners cannot keep them) or an IRRESPONSIBLE breeder (pick any male, throw them together, have puppies and sell them to whomever).

Those are your two choices. If you want to be a RESPONSIBLE breeder then the first steps are to have your bitch tested - health, structure, temperament and working ability.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Face palm smilie?

You place yourself in a conundrum. A truly reputable breeder would never never never sell or stud a male to you to breed for the reason you mention above. 

So...if you buy/find a male for the purpose of breeding you will not be dealing with a reputable breeder.

Please please please don't do this. Every week, every day I have a parade of local,broken, starved, sick and homeless german shepherds being tagged on my FB page. They too were produced by someone who was breeding for the wrong reason. Our local rescue can't pull and find fosters for them fast enough and they often die in 'the room' where they are put to death.

Please please please don't breed your female, get her spayed, love her and enjoy her.


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## G&Arabella (Dec 11, 2013)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> If someone allows - by choice or through inaction - a bitch to become pregnant they ARE a breeder.
> 
> So you have a to make a choice - do you want to be a RESPONSIBLE breeder (do the health tests to confirm that your bitch is healthy, have her evaluated to confirm that she is breed worthy, study her to find her faults and then study the males to find the one that will compliment her faults but not bring any others, check out potential puppy buyers and be ready to take back ANY of the puppies - at ANY age - if their owners cannot keep them) or an IRRESPONSIBLE breeder (pick any male, throw them together, have puppies and sell them to whomever).


I may have worded that wrong, I am not looking to become a full time breeder and let Bell have more than one litter and repeat the process gain and again with her pups. I do plan on having her tested when she is a little bit older before I do allow her to have a litter. I do not want to just pick up a male and let them have at each other. That isn't fair to the dogs and it doesn't sit well with me. That is as bad as saying "I want a kid, so I'll go get some random woman pregnant and claim the child." 

I want to find a good quality male and do want to keep him.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is your dog from several generations of dogs that have been
tested and titled?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm confused....you are looking to buy a male puppy, or looking for a stud dog? If the latter, for a good quality stud you will likely need to have hip and elbow certifications at barest of minimum, plus brucellosis testing and many will require vaginal cultures as well and also progesterone testing before the breeding. Most will also require the female to be trained and titled, possibly even breed surveyed.

If you are looking for a puppy and like your female, why not just go back to her breeder and get a second dog with similar lines? Seems like a lot of work to be doing all the necessary training/titling, health certifications, etc on TWO dogs to breed a litter.


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## mydogs (May 4, 2012)

Wow


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Here we go again...

*-*Summer*-*


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> *you're not going to shatter the dogs dreams by not allowing her to have a litter .*


Truly! Even many humans decline to reproduce & feel 'complete'. Dogs need a close, loving family to be happy, but that 'family' doesn't have to be natural progeny. Among wild dogs, most pack members, male & female, never breed. The 'need to breed' is a badly misguided human notion that too often ends in tragedy for the pups. Love your girl. Be her family. Introduce another dog if it's right for your situation. But leave breeding to those with the knowledge & experience for it. You won't regret it.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Are you serious?


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

G&Arabella said:


> Soooo while looking around to find a mate for my Bell, (not to become a breeder but because I want her to have a litter before she is spayed, this way she is complete and does not feel like a part of her is missing)



Yikes. I can only imagine how you feel about the reproductive rights of human women. 

Your dog doesn't know the difference. Don't bring more poorly-bred puppies into the world for something so abstract. Your dog already has a family, you! 


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I agree with everyone that has posted above me, unless she has a great pedigree, you are going to do health testing, have her evaluated, etc. please do not breed her.

I also wanted to add that problems can and sometimes due occur during labor. Your female could lose all of the puppies or she could die from birthing complications. Some reputable and responsible breeders have had these tragedies occur.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Meh, i would not count on hurt feeling if she does not have a litter of pups, i dont know much about breeding but from the little bit i have read here and there, they need to be all tested and have outstanding backgrounds with titles, and stable temperments.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Funny, my dogs seem to feel complete when we go train in what they were bred to do.... Even when I take them on off leash hikes in the woods where they can sniff and race each other and act like dogs... Or come with me while I run errands or visit family. Sleeping in my room at night seems to make them feel like a happy secure pack....

If you love your dog, spay her and allow her to live a full life with you. Take her places, challenge her mentally and physically, and allow her to be a dog, without the health risks of bearing a litter. 


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

MilesNY said:


> Funny, my dogs seem to feel complete when we go train in what they were bred to do.... Even when I take them on off leash hikes in the woods where they can sniff and race each other and act like dogs... Or come with me while I run errands or visit family. Sleeping in my room at night seems to make them feel like a happy secure pack....
> 
> If you love your dog, spay her and allow her to live a full life with you. Take her places, challenge her mentally and physically, and allow her to be a dog, without the health risks of bearing a litter.
> 
> ...


Umm ...so if I haven't spayed my dog I don't love her? I think she has lived a pretty full life with me ...


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

holland said:


> Umm ...so if I haven't spayed my dog I don't love her? I think she has lived a pretty full life with me ...


I didn't take it that way, I took it as the OP should spay her dog instead of having a litter.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

This is the old school line of thinking that I mentioned a few years ago, and nobody believed me. There are people out there who truly believe that GSD bitch will go crazy if she doesn't have a litter. There are people out there who've bred their female thinking that this is a vital part of their psyche. OP, would it be very rude of me to ask me your age, or where your heard that your bitch must be bred? I actually find these old wives tales kind of fascinating.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

holland said:


> Umm ...so if I haven't spayed my dog I don't love her? I think she has lived a pretty full life with me ...



The OP already stated she was going to spay, but I always love your ridiculous comments. Two of my three are intact. 


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Some of the comments on this thread are rude and add nothingof value to the conversation; lets be polite folks.

"The OP already stated she was going to spay, but I always love your ridiculous comments. Two of my three are intact. "

"Yikes. I can only imagine how you feel about the reproductive rights of human women"

Wow

Here we go again

Are you serious


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## G&Arabella (Dec 11, 2013)

I'm a 21 year old male, and I was raised around all kinds of dogs. My Grandfather would tell me every time we had a new puppy or dog to always let them have one litter for 2 reasons, the first being that it helps the dog psychologically, and the second that it allows the dogs internals to grow and fully develop.

Now obviously from most of the rude comments and everything else going on here what I was taught while growing up wasn't 100% accurate. I have never had a female die on me during birth or have any complications during any stage of the pregnancy, I have lost a few puppies but that is natural. It sucks, but it is completely natural. 

Yes this is the 6 month old we are talking about and I do not plan on letting her have a litter until she is a year and half. That being said I do plan on getting her evaluated and making sure she is ok to have pups when that time draws near. There would be no issues as to where the puppies would go, I have house on 10 acres that was passed down to me, so the majority of the litter would stay with me. I want to take 3 out of the litter and put them through a service dog course, I know there is a high wash out rate and I am completely ok with it, but at least I know I tried. If all else fails I could go apply to get a service dog for my sisters instead of having one that they have been around since it was born.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

"Evaluated"....for what and by whom? 

Having a litter doesn't help organs fully develop (it can do a number on organs if there are problems with the pregnancy or delivery). Leaving a dog intact will, but that does not mean you have to actually breed the dog. By all means, leave her intact for now so she can fully mature. At THAT time, decided whether she is breedworthy. At 6 months, it's a crapshoot. She's not old enough for any hip or elbow certs, titles, can't do a BH or AD, a show rating at this age would not count toward a breed survey. You can do a DM test and evaluate based on the pedigree but that's about it at this age.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

But if you keep 3 you'll want them to have at least one litter as well, won't you?

I know many people, especially from Dad's generation & earlier, that thought females should have a litter prior to being spayed. They were mistaken.

IF you want to breed then you're in it (or should be, imo) for more than 1 litter. That requires years of hard work & careful preparation to do it right. You need to be certain you have solid breeding stock, that the bitch & stud are well matched, that you are clear on your breeding goals & how you will attain them. It's advisable to have an experienced breeder who you're simpatico with mentoring you, as well. 

There are health adavantages to allowing the dogs to mature prior to speuter surgery. The benefits seem to be more pronounced for males than females. Spaying prior to the 1st heat does offer bitches the very real advantage of an almost non-existent incidence of breast cancer. I'm honestly undecided as to whether this advantage outweighs the drawbacks. It's just not as clear with the females from all that I've read.

She's still very young. Please don't rule out the possibility of not breeding her regardless of whether or not you keep her intact. I know that ultimately uou want to do what is best for your girl. Please study on it a great deal more before making an irrevocable & potentially tragic mistake.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I thought that they had to be 2-years before they can have hips certified. You would at least want to wait for that. If some of the pups work as therapy dogs they would be useless if they develop hip problems....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is a really bad idea "I have house on 10 acres that was passed down to me, so the majority of the litter would stay with me. "

and would they all need to recreate to feel self fulfilled.

chances are high that the needs demand would be overwhelming . How are you going to have well socialized , dogs with individual attention and training , especially if you have a litter of 8 or more .

8 young demanding dogs . Chances are they will turn into a little gone-wild dog oriented pack. Chances are none of them will develop to the best of their potential . Conflict , competition . 

"I want to take 3 out of the litter and put them through a service dog course, I know there is a high wash out rate "

The wash out rate will be high or higher , maybe 100% UNLESS the breeding is done with knowledge of the pedigree, the breeding partner, selection, proper raising and socialization and training .

What makes the female a good candidate to produce service dogs. Have you had experience training ? Has the dog been evaluated for work through training and having her temperament assessed . 

so curious about the pedigree , if you want to post it ?

you may be okay with them washing out , but what next . Any institute which is going to certify them doesn't want their time wasted .


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Carmen, that's both thought provoking info & some very good questions.

G&Arabella, over the years I've had numerous friends that bred their dogs...Some saw easy money. Others had oops litters. ONE planned on breeding (& took 10 yrs preparing for her 1st litter)

Most of them literally couldn't give me a dog. Nor could they find the necessary takers from other friends, neighbors, colleagues & family members. The pups went to the shelter. In littter upon litter there were literally just a couple that found homes. It's impossible to know how successful the homes were b/c beyond promising to provide good homes nothing more was ever known of any of the people. Nor were the litter owners about to check & possibly mess up the 1 or 2 homes they managed to find. 

Breeding is really much tougher than it appears. Even doing it very, very badly usually involves more money & effort than people expect. I don't breed & I've never regretted that decision.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I'll tell you straight out that a service dog organization is not going to take your puppies from un tested un proven parents.


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

OP You have gotten the good the bad and the ugly. You say you have 10 acres available for your dogs. Nice. At your age the world is your oyster. You want to be a breeder, go ahead, do it right, really right. You can only learn by trying. In the long run it is your call. If you should find that breeding is not for you there is another avenue that is just as rewarding and fulfilling, plenty of work and truly needed everywhere all the time forever. I would suggest you think about rescue. Not only do you get a buddy but you just may find that special service dog.


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## DSX (Mar 29, 2021)

RubyTuesday said:


> Truly! Even many humans decline to reproduce & feel 'complete'. Dogs need a close, loving family to be happy, but that 'family' doesn't have to be natural progeny. Among wild dogs, most pack members, male & female, never breed. The 'need to breed' is a badly misguided human notion that too often ends in tragedy for the pups. Love your girl. Be her family. Introduce another dog if it's right for your situation. But leave breeding to those with the knowledge & experience for it. You won't regret it.


I know this is a four-year-old thread but I loved your comment so much I cannot help but applaud you. I couldn't have said it any better myself. Thank you for being rational.


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