# Opinions and information regarding...



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am hoping to get some opinions on this particular kennel. I am doing my best to translate using a few different translators but would like to know if anyone is familar with these dogs/lines and what you can tell me?

I am particularly interested in dogs who descend from Tim Abfuhr so if you know of any kennels with sons/daughters of this dog, please feel free to PM me or list them here.

If anyone would like to PM me their opinion, I would be more than happy to hear from you as well.

Thanks everyone.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

<3 <3 <3 I wish I could be more helpful...all I can really tell you is that I love Paska, Branko, and Ellex


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Gorgeous dogs. Dont know anything about them personally, would love to hear more if you get any info! Theres a female on there that I would give my right arm for!!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also gorgeous dogs, I think ya should get one)


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Where's Mrs K? She should be able to help you with that website.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

If you have a google tool bar it has a translate button, if you hit it the site will be in english. Love those blacks!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I think I am getting the translation a bit, I am more interested in knowing more aboutt these bloodlines, particularly the ones that lead back to Tim and Troll.

I am also interested in knowing about this particular breeder (you may PM me with information or opinion) or if anyone has any experience with any dogs of theirs or any dogs that come from them or their lines?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I looked into this breeder before and the first thing everybody told me was if you wanted to talk to the guy, you'd need a translator as he doesn't speak English (could have changed, but who knows). I also believe that he doesn't have a contract of any sort. You get what you get, though he is very honest and upfront about his dogs.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I found the "no contract" thing to be very common when dealing with European breeders. 

I know of someone at my club who would be able to help with the translation but he is currently on vacation for the holidays so I have no way in communicating with him to help me out..lol.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Found a son of Tim's in the USA (or at least he was in the USA), does anyone know of a contact for his owner? The kennel he is currently at?

Yukon Vom Musikanten Hof? The working-dog.eu website says he is owned by Bob Mitchell but I am unsure of how to get into contact with him. When I plugged his name into google search MANY Bob Mitchell's appeared, none of whom looks like the appropriate one.

Any help would be appreciated.

ETA: When I tried contacting the owner of Yukon through the above website it would not allow me unless I signed up for a membership (Premium). I am a member of the site but not a Preimium member so I can't send messages to other members.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Just wanting to bump this thread up a bit.

I am still looking for information regarding Tim and any progeny that may still be producing in the USA or Canada (even overseas really).

Also curious on people's opinions of the kennel (and the dogs being used) in the original post.

Thanks everyone.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Very good kennel. Uses a lot of the old Koerbelbach lines. Saltzal-hohe seems to be the same kennel or at least the same family--often the same dogs in the pedigrees.

I think there's some good dogs being bred from these kennels in the US. This kennel has some of the bloodlines you're interested in, including a Tim vd Abfuhr grand daughter: OUR MALE, FEMALE, UP-AND-COMING & RETIRED BREEDING DOGS


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks Christine. 

I have heard that these lines are not ones that some would like to use in schH, was wondering how true/false this is? Why or why not?

Stark's sire ( http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/593372.html ) is a Tim grandson and a son of Kaiko Salztalblick. I REALLY love this male and am finding that the dogs I like are often from these lines.

I am also finding that when these lines are mixed with Czech dogs, that I start drooling.. lol. Not sure why that combination draws me in so much but I like the way they work, temperaments are amazing and their nerves are awesome. Wondering what your take on that was?

Sorry for all the questions but I respect your opinion and would like to hear your take on this.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Look up the dog Wasko vom Eifelgrund....you will see Tim in his pedigree.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My (possible) pup's sire has some of their dogs on his paternal side; he is a Bronco grandson. The pup is only 4 weeks old so I don't have any feedback on him, but I can tell you I :wub: the dad.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Look up the dog Wasko vom Eifelgrund....you will see Tim in his pedigree.


Thanks Cliff!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Emoore said:


> My (possible) pup's sire has some of their dogs on his paternal side; he is a Bronco grandson. The pup is only 4 weeks old so I don't have any feedback on him, but I can tell you I :wub: the dad.


Thanks Emoore! I like Bronco as well! Definitely going to have to look into him some more!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Thanks Emoore! I like Bronco as well! Definitely going to have to look into him some more!


Sorry to throw this thread off topic, but I thought of you and Stark last night as I read the new House of Night book, every time I read the name Stark I saw your handsome boys picture. He has a great name!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Cliff, through Wasko, I found another grandson of Tim - Iwo vom Hunxer Wald. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

The breeder who owns Wasko and Iwo (co-own I believe) are planning a breeding between Wasko and a Iwo offspring, is that too close of a line breeding? Can I ask what is to be expected with that breeding? What type of work would this breeding do well at? PP, SchH, Police, etc.?

I will be contacting the breeder tonight after work (leaving in 5 minutes) via his website but thought I would ask here and see what type of responses I get. 

Thanks everyone!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Sorry to throw this thread off topic, but I thought of you and Stark last night as I read the new House of Night book, every time I read the name Stark I saw your handsome boys picture. He has a great name!


Haha.. Thanks Lauren. 

The new book, Awakened? I think it's called was really good.  I am fond of the name Nyx (for a female) and Kalona (for a male) now...lol. Gotta keep the theme going right? Hahaha.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Haha.. Thanks Lauren.
> 
> The new book, Awakened? I think it's called was really good.  I am fond of the name Nyx (for a female) and Kalona (for a male) now...lol. Gotta keep the theme going right? Hahaha.


Yes, I just started reading it last night, I am almost half way done with it.​ 
I love the name Nyx and Kalona is growing on me. 

It would be really neat if you kept the theme going ​


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Nice dogs. I was looking at this kennel recently as a dog we were looking at buying had a few Salztalblick dogs in the pedigree. The ones we were looking at went back to Arek v Stoffelblick and Cliff, 2 dogs which we really like.
Here's one of the dogs in the pedigree we were looking at:
V Paska vom Salztalblick - German shepherd dog
Will have to look in my bookmarks to see what litter I was looking at though, can't bring it to mind grrrrr.

I just went back and checked the progeny for Paska to see if it would jog my memory, it didn't .
But, wow, looking at Paska's progeny, he does have a strong gene for throwing black offspring. Pretty interesting to study.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

bocron said:


> Nice dogs. I was looking at this kennel recently as a dog we were looking at buying had a few Salztalblick dogs in the pedigree. The ones we were looking at went back to Arek v Stoffelblick and Cliff, 2 dogs which we really like.
> Here's one of the dogs in the pedigree we were looking at:
> V Paska vom Salztalblick - German shepherd dog
> Will have to look in my bookmarks to see what litter I was looking at though, can't bring it to mind grrrrr.


I have been looking into Paska as well. 

I am also tempted to purchase from Salztalblick themselves but am a little hesitant because of the translation barrier some seem to have with the breeder (no one's faults, just different language) and I would like to maintain a relationship with the breeder if at all possible. I understand this can happen but distance and the language barrier would make it difficult.

I am still looking into a lot of avenues yet, long ways away from a puppy. Funny thing is a puppy is the last thing on my mind! Too much research to do first! Haha.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Im in the same boat with everyone else. I have been to that site before and like the dogs that they have.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Willi (breeder) is excellent to work with and is great on following up via emails, etc.

We bred to Okar (one of the stud dogs) for our O litter and were thrilled with the results.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Smithie86 said:


> Willi (breeder) is excellent to work with and is great on following up via emails, etc.
> 
> We bred to Okar (one of the stud dogs) for our O litter and were thrilled with the results.


Thanks so much for that! 

I will definitely contact him after work (eek, running late but I just wanted to check in before I left..lol).


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Acutally, Sue would you mind if I PM'd you a few questions?

I would love to hear about your/Gabor's experience dealing with them. Also, have some questions about your dogs. 

I have to run to work but will be back later. Thanks!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

no problem.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Paska is :wub: :wub::wub:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Thanks Christine.
> 
> I have heard that these lines are not ones that some would like to use in schH, was wondering how true/false this is? Why or why not?
> 
> ...


Hmm. Well, it kind of depends on whether what you're liking is the Koerbelbach influence or the Fero influence. 

I like the fight drive and hardness in the Koerbelbach dogs. To generalize wildly.... They tend to be medium/high in threshold and often need to mature into their drives before they are really strong dogs (can get "washed out" young for not enough prey drive or not enough defense), very high pain thresholds, lots of handler hardness, excellent and hard grips, not the best obedience performance (often).

I have known many excellent Fero progeny (children, g-children, g-g-children, etc.), and while I like much of what he throws, I am cautious of hecticness (especially through Yoschy) and some squirrellyness. He's gotten to be such a dominant force in working GSD bloodlines because he produces so many good things, so I don't mean to disparage him. He produced in his puppies, IMO, high intelligence, good handler hardness, low thresholds, lots of prey drive, lots of aggression, high dominance, high drive and skill in tracking, good looking heads and ears, decent conformation (usually very good shoulders), and obviously, very high trainability.

Czech breeders have gone to Fero bloodlines a lot--particularly through dogs who are Fero combined with Koerbelbach--such as Nick Heiligenbosch's littermate (whose name I can't remember at the moment). You'll often see Fero along the topline with Arek Stoffelblick/Gildo on the mother's sireline. 

Nick v Heiligenbosch: V Nick vom Heiligenbösch - German shepherd dog 

Arek -- V Arek vom Stoffelblick - German shepherd dog

See Bingo vd Abfuhr -- WUSV Bingo vd Abfuhr - German shepherd dog

The Czech's liked Illo vd Abfuhr a lot, too: Illo v.d. Abfuhr - German shepherd dog

Note, when I think "Koerbelbach" lines, most of them aren't actually from Koerbelbach kennel--it's Caro Allerswald, Umsa Bungalow, Acco Bungalow, Evi Koerbelbach-->Friga Allerswald-->Quicke v Itzal (wonderful, powerful female bloodline). See Blanka Koerbelbach's pedigree: Blanka vom Körbelbach - German shepherd dog

Note the pedigree of Nick's grandmother: Orlie Koerbelbach V Orlie vom Körbelbach - German shepherd dog

And we get back to these dogs today through dogs such as Sid v Haus Gremm, Arec Busenkocher, Gildo Koerbelbach, Blacky vd Neuen Lande, Nick H. 

And many breeders are combining the Koerbelbach lines with lines that go back to Ilya ad Schwarzen Zwinger through Wolfendobel and Fasanerie bloodlines then taking females from these lines to Fero progeny--see Gimmi Abfuhr's pedigree--http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/21075.html

The dog you like so much, Kaiko, is actually linebred pretty strongly on the Fero son, Troll.

I am really interested in the many combinations of Koerbelbach lines with the Ilya bloodlines--you see a lot of of it in most of today's top West German working lines--so I've been studying it. 

<---dog geek


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

:wub:I too really like Paska. I have him bookmarked in my "Looking for a Dog" folder. He has beautiful conformation.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Illo has been used by Czech breeders with good results. My male that recently went to Law Enforcement,(Sheriff's dept.), was 5-5 on Fero and 5-5 on Arek vom Stoffelblick. Christine's general analysis is very good. Sheriff's dept was very happy about how well he was trained, I let them know I did it on the internet with pedigree analysis!!lol!!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Hmm. Well, it kind of depends on whether what you're liking is the Koerbelbach influence or the Fero influence.
> 
> I like the fight drive and hardness in the Koerbelbach dogs. To generalize wildly.... They tend to be medium/high in threshold and often need to mature into their drives before they are really strong dogs (can get "washed out" young for not enough prey drive or not enough defense), very high pain thresholds, lots of handler hardness, excellent and hard grips, not the best obedience performance (often).
> 
> ...


Wow... Christine, THANK YOU!

I have been really trying to understand what certain dogs/lines bring forth and it looks like I may be on the right path (thanks to you, Cliff, Chuck, Chris and many others who are so knowledgable with this and willing to share and teach!). 

Your overview is beyond generous and I so very much appreciate your help! THANK YOU AGAIN!

Oh, and I totally am with you in the nerd herd with the whole "dog geek" thing!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Illo has been used by Czech breeders with good results. My male that recently went to Law Enforcement,(Sheriff's dept.), was 5-5 on Fero and 5-5 on Arek vom Stoffelblick. Christine's general analysis is very good. Sheriff's dept was very happy about how well he was trained, I let them know I did it on the internet with pedigree analysis!!lol!!


Hahaha Cliff, that is too funny!

I totally understand what you mean though. I *thought* I put a lot of time and research before getting Stark but I really did not, I know sooo much more now and just want to make the best decision possible. I also am enjoying learning about all of these dogs and bloodlines. It's soooo confusing but so much fun!

I think if we are going to try and get the best dog for us out there then we really need to understand where these dogs are coming from and that is what I am trying to do. That, any I am totally getting addicted to the bloodline forums/PDB now. 

Thanks again everyone!


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Elisabeth, you and I may need to touch base with one another at some point in the future, as you seem to be following many similar dogs  and lines that I have been exploring over the last while!

PS: Many thanks from me (the "lurker" of such threads at this point) as well to all of you who contribute your knowledge and experience!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Nicole, you know where I hang out, so most definitely!


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

LOL Most excellent!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> My (possible) pup's sire has some of their dogs on his paternal side; he is a Bronco grandson. The pup is only 4 weeks old so I don't have any feedback on him, but I can tell you I :wub: the dad.


Wanted to add a little to this. Josh (the Bronco grandson) would not be my first choice if I were planning to compete in high-level Schutzhund. He has a lowish-moderate prey drive and isn't insanely drivey. 

He's a one-woman dog who is polite but indifferent to strangers. Personally I like the combination of being indifferent to strangers and the lowish prey drive because I do a lot of hiking with my dogs off leash and feel like this makes them easier to train to stick around me. 

He is, like I said, polite to strangers and will let them pet him, no avoidance behavior or shying away, but if everybody blew up except his mom he'd be ok with that. He's got a pretty strong natural suspicion of anything out of the ordinary. 

Also, he's a _gorgeous_ dark red, almost black sable with a big wide head and solid bone. 


Hopefully I'll be getting one of his pups.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Wanted to add a little to this. Josh (the Bronco grandson) would not be my first choice if I were planning to compete in high-level Schutzhund. He has a lowish-moderate prey drive and isn't insanely drivey.
> 
> He's a one-woman dog who is polite but indifferent to strangers. Personally I like the combination of being indifferent to strangers and the lowish prey drive because I do a lot of hiking with my dogs off leash and feel like this makes them easier to train to stick around me.
> 
> ...


Sounds like my kind of DOG! :wub:

Do you have a link to his pedigree?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sounds like a typical DDR, Elizabeth


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I know, right?!

I love the line, but for my purposes, I don't think the DDR (or at least a pure DDR lined dog) will do, just my observations/research. I wouldn't mind a good deal of DDR in the lines though.


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

Emoore, I would be interested in that link to the Bronco grandson, too. Sounds like his temperament has some of the components on my "must have" list. Thank you.

Cecilia


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