# belgium working lines



## pets4life

From a few people i hear that a lot of these lines are driven like a mal? IS that true or just exageration? 


Does anyone here own a belgium dog? if so what is he/she like?


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## Tim Connell

Comparing a GSD to a Malinois is a little bit of a stretch, in my opinion, but you will see that many Euro kennels breed for something a little different than some are accustomed to seeing...but suffice it to say that depending on the breeding, some of the Belgian (and other countries) bred dogs are athletic, solid, aggressive, and drivey...I'm likely going to be breeding Baghira shortly to a dog that is an import from a kennel in Belgium, and that dog in particular has been an excellent producer, and brings drive, and natural aggression, which is what I want from this litter. There are some strong dogs in the pedigree, including some KNPV titled dogs. Baghira is a strong, masculine female, who is a little stubborn, who shows nice drive, nerve, and solid performance. Should be a great match. Her second breeding (with me) down the road will be a strong one as well, likely to Max v. Tiekerhook...it's my intent to breed for a strong working Shepherd dog...the way they should be, in my eyes.


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## elisabeth_00117

Tim, do you think you could PM me the mating pedigree of Baghira and the dog you intend to breed her too?

I am currently looking at these lines for my next and am very interested/curious.

I would greatly appreciate it.


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## carmspack

I imported a male and female from Belgium. They are dogs . They are dogs from Belgium. It matters more what the intentions of the kennel is when they create the combination , then the country that the dog comes from. Griswald van Xazziam - German shepherd dog
I was after a pedigree that was really solid in strong natural tracking, and strong old heritage herding lines. 
So far I've had good litters -- just put a male into LE - currently in training with excellent reports for specialized bomb/explosives . 
Second litter had some tough cookies -- . Is it because of the "Belgian" sire . No , not entirely. It is because no matter where a dog comes from I always select for the same type.
Now here is a totally different slant to things. 
Countries outside of the SV are not as concerned with the big business of "show lines" , tend to concentrate more on the working aspect .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117

Carmen, I liked the pedigree you linked. 

I'm surprised, but I actually recognize some of the dogs in there! 

Asko, Dino and Haska on the bottom half are dogs I am seeing in a few others that I am looking at. 

I also recognize Castro and Chip from a few I have seen too.

What was produced in your litter - is that typical of these dogs? Would you think they would excel in sport or are these dogs more of a 'harder' dog for lets say what you do in LE?

Now, this is coming from a total newbie - so please bear with me as I try to understand - but although these dogs are "more real" and not as sporty and not the typical dogs you see excelling in the sport world do you think they could still place well? Or are they "too much" for that venue?


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## carmspack

harder does not mean stubborn or resistant to taking direction . Those are not my ideal. A "hard" dog is a dog with rock solid nerves . Goes through life without any problems , is neutral in public, is resilient, forgiving , determined . When needed they respond and will rise to the pressure . 
Here is the pedigree of the male who just went into service Carmspack Silva - German shepherd dog
"Power's " brother is the k9 for Kawartha Lakes . Case has produced other PD's .
Here is another pup from Gris (Belgian import) BIRCH-BARK HILL
In that combination the dam was a ddr lines bred german import Airdrie Hill vom Schmetterling - German shepherd dog

Can they do schutzhund , absolutely. I would train them less routine though . Less of the conditioned response . You don't have to create the drives or condition them with routine . that's a whole huge topic all on its own . would be interesting .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117

Hmm... I'm intrigued.

Thanks for that - very much appreciated.

Going to take a look at those links carefully, thank you.


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## pets4life

how about the ones with losh in front of their names does that mean anything?


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## BlackthornGSD

LOSH is just the acronym for the Belgian registry. Like SZ is for the German registry.


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## cliffson1

Right now the top Belgian dogs and trainers are very successful in the international sport world. As such their dogs are well known and these lines are being used a lot by competition breeders. There are some similar traits and types from these dogs and breeders, so as Carmen says it is more the intent of the kennel than just the national line. There are kennels from Belgium that produce very successful KNPV dogs and Law enforcement dogs in both scent work and patrol work. It all goes back to knowing the lines and seeing dogs work to assess these drives and capabilities for your point of reference.


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## GSDBESTK9

Well, Dennis' former competition dogs (Valko and Zeno) were from Belgium and I must say they were both pretty amazing. Our Evi girl is also Belgium and I have to say she is one tough female! She is very serious in the field and works just like a male.


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## crackem

I've seen so many good dogs from so many places, I find it hard to believe anybody has got it better than the other. instead of spending so much time deciding if the czech, DDR, WG, Belgian, Dutch, etc are breeding "better" dogs. We should be spending more time looking at their breeding practices and seeing why good dogs are coming from there. 

I've seen enough dogs bred right here in the US that have everything i've ever seen come from overseas. Do your homework and demand good dogs, you'll get them. But alas, humans are such a funny bunch, rather worry about the "flavor" than the substance.


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## Catu

I know one and yes, he remembers me a mali in hid over the top prey drive and in how he is fast as a whip. He is also a small sized dog, though withing standard for a male GSD. I really like him.


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## G-burg

> I've seen so many good dogs from so many places, I find it hard to believe anybody has got it better than the other. instead of spending so much time deciding if the czech, DDR, WG, Belgian, Dutch, etc are breeding "better" dogs. We should be spending more time looking at their breeding practices and seeing why good dogs are coming from there.
> 
> I've seen enough dogs bred right here in the US that have everything i've ever seen come from overseas. Do your homework and demand good dogs, you'll get them. But alas, humans are such a funny bunch, rather worry about the "flavor" than the substance.


I like that advice!


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## wolfstraum

I have had both imported and US bred dogs whose parents are imported from Germany (West and East lines) Belgium and Holland - almost every one combined "lines" including Czech, West and East German, and Belgian, 2 males I bred to were all WGR lines even when one was born in Denmark....many "kennels" in every country are puppy producers who buy bitches, breed them, sell them and buy more and repeat the process...they are not a breeder wtih a program of developing a family with similar lines...breeding on the basis of the characteristics of the pair, the reputation of the dog, and the marketability of the puppies to whatever market they choose. With the recent move to the US of a few European trainers/breeders, I think you are going to see alot of imported litters, with females sold off afterwards, and new females brought in bred. Don't expect the same type of "guarantees" from these breeders as you see and expect from Americans. The whole concept puzzles them!

Actual working line kennels with a breeding program in Belgium are a very small number. Most pups do go to pet homes, just like here!!! Many more kennels are in neighboring Germany and the Netherlands and even Denmark - and distances are not much more than someone in NY going to S Carolina or Michigan so breeding litters is often done accross borders. My Dutch born female was by Pike Schafbachmuhle, a German dog, and my Belgian born Ufo daughter's mother was an SV registered female. LOL when I wanted my Belgian import bred to a certain male (grrr - Vito Waldwinkel) he was "too far" away...so we settled on ****** Mohnweise a WUSV dog in the same club. 

The Belgians as a group I think breed looking for certain characteristics in their dogs for training ease - and high ball/prey drive is very characteristic of certain popular Belgian lines....but there are other elements that come into the mix and must be balanced....the Orry lined dogs are said to be rather "ordinary" for obedience....and thus, a cross to Ufo descendants works extremely well as the drive in obedience is so over the top, the Orry descendants balance that out (I did 3 litters from Tom sons to Ufo daughter) and that is a very consistant result.

With the numbers of successful competitors on a World level, the Belgians are breeding very trainable dogs, and their training philosophy seems to be more advanced in the current "positive" methodology...while I know that some very popular, highly regarded German trainers giving seminars are still very committed to "force/compulsion" training....so the dogs bred in each country/area tend to be dogs who are successful with the training style popular there. 

Lee


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## Jason L

I like my Belgian dog ... well, most of the time


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## wolfstraum

too late to edit:

Along with the distances to good stud dogs being much more doable in Europe than here - people are MUCH MORE OBJECTIVE about their dogs and breed dogs who are good workers and good producers!!!!! No one would breed 20 or 30 litters out of a male who wasn't producing title-able dogs!!! Or a dog consistantly producing weak temperament or a high percentage of poor hips! If the dog is famous and producing poorly - they sell him off!!! Working or show lines - China, Korea, India, and yes, the US gets alot of dogs who the Europeans know enough about to pass on for more breeding.

I have been warned by my European friends about several dogs who come here and why to avoid them.....

Lee


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## carmspack

thank you ! Crackem and Wolfstraum.
Time to look at good dogs being produced "here" (North America) . 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117

First off - THANK YOU to everyone who posted... some very good information here.

Wow.. going to have to read that all again so it can really sink in.

I understand to look to dogs who are of good substance - I understand that logic and agree with that whole heartedly - but I guess then my questions is - how can you tell/know a dog of good substance, especially someone like me who is just starting to learn about "all of this"?

This forum is a wealth of knowledge and I am so greatful for that but I hate to "bug" others all the time for my questions/lack of knowledge about these dogs but still want/need to know.. how can one tell if a dog/pairing/line is of substance?

Lee - I have been looking to the Belgium crosses because of that generalization - Ike I would think is a good example of this - as he seems to have the zest for obedience, not only because Jason rocks as a handler (go Jason!  ) but he really seems to NEED to do it and ENJOY it. I want that. I also think by watching video's Jason posts along with other dogs I have met of similar crosses and watch train at various clubs that it seems to be common amoung them, they also seem to be very serious out on the field and I like that as well - I do not want the dog to play tug with the helper, I want him to treat this as a threat, not a game of sorts, the only thing that makes me nervous is the fact that I would prefer high thresholds but as I am doing my research and thinking maybe my issue isn't thresholds at all, and maybe it is nerve? Having a dog with somewhat weak nerves (reactive to people in certain situations) maybe having the low thresholds plus the nerve issue is the issue and not necessarily the problem I am looking to avoid originally (low thresholds over all). Something that draws me in and something I am very much looking for.


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## crackem

you don't learn it by reading at all. you can read for 6 years and not know what you're looking at in a dog. I read for a year, every day. i was consumed, before I even got a dog. and I didn't know **** when I was done. thought I did, that's for sure.

Get involved, get involved, get involved. Go to trials, go to training, go to clubs and watch, listen and learn. You'll see lots of good and lots of bad. Get to know people, their dogs, on and off the field and you'll find out what dogs have it and what don't. 

So many rely on what people tell them or what they read. I can't tell you how many people I used to hold as dog training "gods" when I used to read all the time, especially on the interent, when I actually met them and saw their dogs????? talk about finding out Brett Favre really has a small weiner, it was that sort of feeling. 

Who knows, maybe I'm as full of it as they were, only time will tell..... and experience


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## elisabeth_00117

Hahaha... Crackem... too funny.

Yes, I have been doing that and will continue too as well.

I have also learned soooo much from working my own dog. 

I appreciate the advice and look forward to hearing more opinions/advice and information from everyone else as well.


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## wolfstraum

Without solid nerve, you go backwards! Nerve is soo important! I have been totally lucky in having breeding females with good solid nerves - any female pup who is not 100% should never be kept for breeding IMO....I had one in my second litter - I knew the dark sable was stronger - but I loved the black one...and she just did not have the confidence of the other...I screwed up by being color blind and lost my Alice line going forward....the black female was totally environmentally and noise stable, just not as confident - tons of drive - but not confident enough to be a keeper....should have kept the darker sable who got spayed ....

I am not the best most driven trainer around LOL so I love the dogs who want to work for you and are easy to train...Also, let's face it, most dogs in the sport ARE sport dogs - there have been some threads about this recently....dogs who are balanced with correct social aggression and discernment for true civil drive and have good prey drive are the exception not the rule. I have one of each - the one without civil aggression was easier to "fix" or compensate with - the one who is very 'real' is very difficult to match up appropriately...

The way you learn is to go watch, don't talk - watch - and learn the pedigrees of the dogs you like - and especially the ones you don't like or see issues with....then you will start to see patterns and be able to start to decide what you want in a working dog - or in a companion dog!

Lee


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## pets4life

wolf wow amazing just amazing the way you explained that THANK YOU you are gifted wolf

i had no idea that in belgum a lot of the sheps were just going to pet homes seems to be the whole higher driven higher energy belgum dogs only exist in certain indivindual lines I am guessing like the KNPV lines. SO much variety in the belgum line just like all the other working lines. 

The person who said that her experience with them was that they are a lot like a mal probably came from knpv lines i would assume.


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## Tim Connell

@ elisabeth_00117...PM sent.

It's the individual dog and it's working ability that is the thing I appreciate most. For me, the "proof is in the pudding" with working ability, regardless of papers, pedigrees, or otherwise. We can only do what we can, by stacking the deck in our favor by trying to breed suitable dogs for working type and ability, and not strictly for appearance. Although I can appreciate a good looking dog, give me the work dog any day of the week if it gets the job done . As Max v. Stephanitz said: "Utility is the true criterion of beauty." I wholeheartedly agree.

Breeding exclusively for appearance, coat type, size, and other factors is why so many breeds (GSD, Dobe, and so on) have been "influenced", so much so that it makes it more difficult to find good working dogs. If Von Stephanitz or Louis Dobermann saw what some examples of their breeds have become, they would roll over in their graves. "Back in the day", the breed's suitability was performance, and working ability, not how well it prances around a show ring. 

Maybe I was born a hundred years too late


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## Jason L

Elisabeth, Ike definitely is not playing tug out there with the helper. Actually, we just had a discussion last night that maybe we SHOULD just let him play tug with the helper (or sacrilegious as it may sound, have helper just throw him a ball instead of giving a bite in the blind ... *I know, everyone kind of winced when we were talking about it*) in order to bring him down a notch. 

There is in him a very primordial, deep seated need to bite that is very Malinois-ish. And when that drive kicks in, he is going to bite. Nothing (and we have tried a lot) is going to stop him. That and he has super low threshold. So, yes, in a way he is really like a malinois. Sometimes that's good (for obedience, it makes it easy) but other times the malinois quality in him will make you want to tear your hair out.


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## Tim Connell

But that Malinois-like quality is endearing, isn't it? :wild:

I have a great one right now...I love the breed. 

Sounds like a great Shepherd dog you have there. This is what I like to hear...a dog that takes it seriously even when working a sport...that's what I'm talkin' about!


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## Jason L

It's endearing unless you are trying to teach him to guard. It takes a normal GSD maybe a couple weeks to understand the concept of guarding ... probably. It's been 7 months and he is still not safe in the blind ...


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## Tim Connell

I did a lot of backtie settling in and capping for the bite as a young dog. He ended up with a clean, intense guard/out and guard. Maybe take way the variable of the blind, backtie him to solidly restrict him, and no handler right behind him, and have a helper calmly make him settle and cap, and reward only for a settled, calm rhythmic bark...maybe working his calmness will help him for being wild and dirty?
Working the Mal has taught me to be patient, let him calm, and reward calm and quiet or obedience with a bite.


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## Ruth Buchwald

**** name of seller removed by ADMIN ****

I sent $1500 to this guy to ship me a puppy he advertised on puppyfind. I thought he was legit and we spent more than an hour on the phone. I wish I had googled him before sending my money because I sent the money and never got the puppy. Apparently this guy is quite the scammer.

Anybody else familiar with him?

ADMIN note: PM poster for info - board rules do not allow negatives.


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## Castlemaid

Hi Ruth, 

You're a bit off subject, not sure why you decided to post in an old thread - I removed the person you are refering too, as we have a "no breeder bashing" rule on the board. It is fine to share your experience in PM to those who are interested in finding out more. 

I'm sorry you were scammed - you are not the first person to have a negative experience with this seller - he has been discussed on the board in the past. Reputable breeders/sellers of working lines normally don't advertise on places like "puppy-find" - that is a red flag to me. Also very important to do internet research and get references of other purchasers whom you can talk to.

You can also say something like: "Please PM me for info on my personal experience with Eric Winstead", for example. You get the name of the person out there without actually doing anything against board rules.


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## holland

um...did you just do that-lol


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## Jax08

lol


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## Castlemaid

It was just an example.


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