# Why are not GSD nerves #1 in breeding?



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

There have been over 20 threads dealing with aggression since the beginning of October. Some were started and some were responded to this month.

That does not include all the threads in General Behavior, or Puppy Behavior.

There are fearful dogs, aggressive dogs, submissive dogs peeing from fear and so on.

If I wasn't reasonably certain that I could find a decent GSD I would never want another one.

They "must" IMO have a strong nerve base and solid temperament.

If they don't have those, they are an accident looking for a place to happen. 

How many threads wind up with posters telling someone how to live and "manage" one of these dogs so that they are not too much of a liability.

Why oh why aren't nerves and temperament #1 on all breeders list of goals.

This is not about show lines/working lines, it's about solid sane dogs.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Whatever your definition of "responsible breeder" is (it really seems as though that phrase has become so cliche here), certainly you'd agree that a responsible breeder DOES breed for solid nerves. So the better question in my book is why are so many people getting such poorly bred dogs?

I haven't read the thread you mentioned, but in another thread I read someone say that breeders should be so much more particular about what they breed. I really think that we have to just flip that mentality- BUYERS need to be so much more particular about what they buy. There _are_ plenty of good breeders out there in all GSD lines. But when you buy from a crappy breeder, your chances of getting a great, stable dog are highly diminished.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

One reason is that many of those dogs you wrote about are bred by people with no goals at all.

Another is that many of the dogs you wrote about are bred by people who dont know how to evaluate temperament.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I agree with you. I was clueless about doggies and GSDs and temperaments. I thought that the 'standard' described for what a GSD temperament was would be what we'd get. Never knew that breeding for color, or looks took precedence sometimes :c

It's hard to describe but only by experiencing a weak nerved GSD do you know that next time you need to look for a breeder who knows what their doing in terms of nerves...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with your concerns and I agree with Willy that buyers need to be more educated and make this a priority. Let the demand control the supply!

But I also think that a lot of people don't really understand good GSD nerves/temperament. For some people (even in threads on this board) I think a GSD just isn't the right breed and there's not always something wrong with the dog or the pedigree but the owner's expectations and how the dog is being handled. I've had some supposed "experts" tell me things are wrong with my GSD's temperament because of his pedigree or he does X or Y behavior at home or at Schutzhund training, and then I've had others say he is just fine and actually how a GSD is supposed to be not like the current fad of GSD. So who is right?

So far of my GSDs I won't say that all temperaments have been perfect but I will say that I have never been surprised (for better or worse). In each case I got what I was looking for or thought I wanted at the time.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I think it's most frequently an abundance of poorly bred dogs, but also sometimes people who have dogs who are WAY too much dog for them. A high-drive dog, no matter how well bred, may be a disaster in a couch-potato home. I hear SO many people say they'd like a GSD and get one expecting Rin-Tin-Tin right off the bat and not realizing how much work goes into this breed.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Wildo: 

You are probably right about buyers. 

I think a lot of people see the "Police Dog" or "Seeing Eye Dog" and think GSD's are all regal, noble, steady, and strong.

I'm beginning to wonder if there ever was such a time they were that way.

I love this breed but something is dreadfully wrong.

There are just too many crazy GSD's.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I dont think that breeders _not _breeding for nerves is the problem, its the BYB's who are mass producing puppies and the people who are buying them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that many of those 20 something threads mentioned are about dogs who came from "less than desirable" places.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Wildo:
> 
> You are probably right about buyers.
> 
> ...


 
When I first got my dog and I joined this forum, everything I read scared me. I am not a first time dog owner, but some of the issues I read about were not something I ever wanted to deal with. I do not know where my dog came from. With that being said, I was extra careful about training, socializing, etc. If you read up on a GSD and what they are, she is pretty much exactly what it describes.I can say mine is regal, noble, steady, and strong. I am glad that I had this fear in me in the beginning, because it made me more determined to have a good dog. It took lots of work, but she is right where I want her. Lots of issues that I read about can be avoided or could have been. I think that there has to be more research done and people have to count on having a pretty smart energetic dog on their hands. If they think that training happens on its own, then they need to reconsider what breed they want.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> I dont think that breeders _not _breeding for nerves is the problem, its the BYB's who are mass producing puppies and the people who are buying them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that many of those 20 something threads mentioned are about dogs who came from "less than desirable" places.


 
I see lots of them coming from reputable breeders and byb's...this is for health and behavioral issues. Usually it starts with..I got my dog from a reputable breeder....


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I see alot of things just wrong with the state of gsd's today, most of what's been already posted

I think alot of people think these dogs come pre-trained like rin tin tin

I think also alot of people impulse buy, don't do their homework, get dogs that are not matched to their lifestyle, look for 'inexpensive' puppies

on the breeder end (and this is just general certainly not all)

to many idiots want fido / fiffi to have puppies and make a few bucks
no thought into breeding just throw a couple together
no thought in matching dogs to a person's lifestyle/since they don't know how to properly evaluate temperament anyway pick out the one you want

and the list goes 

Thank goodness I know there ARE breeders out there doing it right, and when the time comes they will be the one(s) I go to for a future dog.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I see lots of them coming from reputable breeders and byb's...this is for health and behavioral issues. *Usually it starts with..I got my dog from a reputable breeder....*



Ya, I guess a persons perception of a "reputable breeder" can vary pretty greatly.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To get back to Willy's point though, it seems people are more willing to go back and forth about what breeder is "reputable" than actually learn about the breed and research what type of DOG is best for their family. No breeder I've ever met or spoken with does things in 100% agreement with how I feel or would do things if I ran the world but I've been super happy with my dogs' temperaments and satisfied that each dog turned out pretty much as I expected (not just what the breeder insisted). I'd rather put my energy into learning more about the breed and observing and working the dogs than going back and forth with breeders and deciding which ones to write off completely based on some criteria that is often arbitrary. If you know what you want in a dog and why it's easier to find breeders that can provide it and make you a satisfied customer. Having studied business and marketing I just assume every breeder out there thinks very highly of their dogs so it's really my responsibility to flesh out what kind of dog is right for me.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Dunno.
The breeder I choose said temperament is her #1 concern, then everything else.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

:thumbup: Lies


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> To get back to Willy's point though, it seems people are more willing to go back and forth about what breeder is "reputable" than actually learn about the breed and research what type of DOG is best for their family. No breeder I've ever met or spoken with does things in 100% agreement with how I feel or would do things if I ran the world but I've been super happy with my dogs' temperaments and satisfied that each dog turned out pretty much as I expected (not just what the breeder insisted). I'd rather put my energy into learning more about the breed and observing and working the dogs than going back and forth with breeders and deciding which ones to write off completely based on some criteria that is often arbitrary. If you know what you want in a dog and why it's easier to find breeders that can provide it and make you a satisfied customer. Having studied business and marketing I just assume every breeder out there thinks very highly of their dogs so it's really my responsibility to flesh out what kind of dog is right for me.


Probably true Lies but most buyers aren't as intense as you.

I guess they just want that cute little puppy that will be just like Rin Tin Tin.

I don't think uneducated buyers is a good reason not to produce sane dogs though.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Tell you what.. I was around a gaggle of high-grade show dogs this past weekend and I have never been more scared of getting bitten before lol


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Sunflowers said:


> Dunno.
> The breeder I choose said temperament is her #1 concern, then everything else.


Sunflowers, they all say that, even the ones selling puppies on the internet or at the flea market. How does your breeder prove their dogs? (By the way I have no idea who your breeder is so I'm not bashing, just trying to get everyone to think. Saying nerves or temperament are your #1 priority means exactly nothing. Nobody ever said, "Making a quick buck off my dogs is my #1 priority.)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm on a local GSD owner fb page and several of the members are GSD 'breeders'. They have no health tests done, no pedigree info, and sell these pups for under $500 Temperament??! 
Here is a post from this morning: _ We have 5 puppies to find homes for and we move in a couple days so we are motivated to sell if anyone us interested 4 females and 1 male left new price 400_
So frustrating to read!!! 
People will purchase a GSD because they are great 'watchdogs' and don't have a clue on anything more than this.
This is representative of most communities.

The responsible breeders are far and few between.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Liesje said:


> To get I'd rather put my energy into learning more about the breed and observing and working the dogs than going back and forth with breeders and deciding which ones to write off completely based on some criteria that is often arbitrary. If you know what you want in a dog and why it's easier to find breeders that can provide it and make you a satisfied customer. Having studied business and marketing I just assume every breeder out there thinks very highly of their dogs so it's really my responsibility to flesh out what kind of dog is right for me.


:thumbup: As a buyer I have not had many surprises over the years. Only time I had a surprise was when I ignored my instincts. I am also like Lies, though, I tend to research things to death.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jack/Andy (??) I agree that nerves/temperament and character should be first amoung a breeder's priorities, I also believe that too much is dumped on breeders while ignoring the buyers. At what point should buyers take responsibilities for their actions? People often spend more time researching washing machines and cars than they do their pets. 

As long as there is a market there will be people who don't care much about what they produce.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Something else I want to ad. As others have pointed out, it isn't uncommon that the issues with aggression are not the dog, but how the buyer handles the dog/puppy. Many (not all, of course) of the issues are created. I have seen excellent dogs made into a mess by terrible handling and dogs with issues turn around and show their real genetic temperament when finally in the right hands


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Why oh why aren't nerves and temperament #1 on all breeders list of goals.


'

For most GOOD breeders, it is.

The problem is there are an awful lot of people breeding dogs who have no business doing so. And it's not just GSDs, but all breeds. If you grew up in the 40's, 50's, and 60's, you may remember the Cocker Spaniel being a sweet, gentle, loving soul that was wonderful with children, and did not even know how to bite... and look what happened to that breed. It could not possibly be further away from its old self. I have to say it's improved some since the 90's, since I haven't had a Cocker try to bite me in quite some time, but they still tend to be on the neurotic side of things.

I would ask the pedigree gurus what they think happened, and where the tide turned with GSDs. I have heard opinions that Canto/Quanto in the WGSL world, and Lance of Fran-Jo in the ASL world, made a huge difference in the GSD as they had so much influence on the breed... and not in a good way. It's kind of interesting to look at pedigrees on PDB now that they can do 8-generation linebreeding; a dog may show no linebreeding in 5 generations, yet the backmassing in the 8th generation can be astonishing.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Jack/Andy (??) I agree that nerves/temperament and character should be first amoung a breeder's priorities, I also believe that too much is dumped on breeders while ignoring the buyers. At what point should buyers take responsibilities for their actions? People often spend more time researching washing machines and cars than they do their pets.
> 
> As long as there is a market there will be people who don't care much about what they produce.


My only response to this is it's in the math. 
There are waaaayyy more buyers than breeders. 

If the only dogs produced had great nerves then most of the problems would be solved.

I realize that is over simplistic and not realistic but there is no simple solution.

Why would even a dreaded BYB, whatever they are, want to breed a dog who cowers and pees every time the next door neighbor comes over.

I have often said that there are a lot of people who should not own GSD's.

Unfortunately they don't know that.

Freestep; Your right it's not just GSD's.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> Why would even a dreaded BYB, whatever they are, want to breed a dog who cowers and pees every time the next door neighbor comes over.


Because it's got papers and baby needs a new pair of shoes!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Because it's got papers and baby needs a new pair of shoes!


Love it.

Glad you posting again emoore.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If the market demanded a better dog than the breeders would have to step up and produce better dogs. As long as there are people who will buy that cute puppy at a pet shop or dump their puppy because it actually might require some work things will not improve.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> Love it.
> 
> Glad you posting again emoore.


Thanks!

People can rationalize anything, and most people don't think behavior is genetic. "Oh, he got scared by a man with an umbrella when he was young." "We didn't get her until she was 12 weeks old, we think she was abused." Couple that with the fact that a lot of people just toss their GSDs out in the yard, where they growl and bark menacingly at anyone and everyone out of fear aggression. "You can't meet the dad, he's really protective of his territory" becomes a selling point, when really the poor thing is a nervy mess who's never been out of its own yard.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what makes you think nerves/temperamant isn't #1 on a
breeders list? i think most of the problems people encounter
with their dogs is due to a lack of proper training, proper
socializing and a lack of proper care in general when raising
a dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> Probably true Lies but most buyers aren't as intense as you.


Well you asked and I answered. I got my first shepherd, my first EVER dog (in my life) just a few years ago and I spent quite some time researching the breed. I did not see it as "intense" but common sense. If I'm going to spend 10-15 years with dogs I'd like to know what I'm getting into first. I don't think I'm as intense as you'd like to think. I work full time and rarely train my dogs more than 10 minutes at a time and certainly do not train or even walk dogs every day. I am involved in other things and honestly dogs/GSDs are probably #3 on that list. Most of my friends and family range from being indifferent to dogs (not owning them themselves) or outspoken dislike. I was not raised with pets because we lived in an awful neighborhood where dogs were fought or stolen or chained to protect drug houses. But when I wanted to get a dog it was not something I just decided one day and then went to a pet store the next day. In fact there were other breeds I was more interested in, and breeds to this day that hold my intrigue more than GSDs but it really wasn't that hard to figure out they weren't a match. I got a GSD because it ticked off all my boxes, not because I wanted a GSD and insisted on fitting one into my boxes. It was not rocket science and I've seen people with considerably more time, money, and resources put a lot less effort into choosing a dog like they are choosing their next take-out meal so no, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them ending up with what they get.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Jack/Andy (??) I agree that nerves/temperament and character should be first amoung a breeder's priorities, I also believe that too much is dumped on breeders while ignoring the buyers. At what point should buyers take responsibilities for their actions? People often spend more time researching washing machines and cars than they do their pets.
> 
> As long as there is a market there will be people who don't care much about what they produce.





lhczth said:


> Something else I want to ad. As others have pointed out, it isn't uncommon that the issues with aggression are not the dog, but how the buyer handles the dog/puppy. Many (not all, of course) of the issues are created. I have seen excellent dogs made into a mess by terrible handling and dogs with issues turn around and show their real genetic temperament when finally in the right hands


*Amen. *


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Well you asked and I answered. I got my first shepherd, my first EVER dog (in my life) just a few years ago and I spent quite some time researching the breed. I did not see it as "intense" but common sense. If I'm going to spend 10-15 years with dogs I'd like to know what I'm getting into first. I don't think I'm as intense as you'd like to think. I work full time and rarely train my dogs more than 10 minutes at a time and certainly do not train or even walk dogs every day. I am involved in other things and honestly dogs/GSDs are probably #3 on that list. Most of my friends and family range from being indifferent to dogs (not owning them themselves) or outspoken dislike. I was not raised with pets because we lived in an awful neighborhood where dogs were fought or stolen or chained to protect drug houses. But when I wanted to get a dog it was not something I just decided one day and then went to a pet store the next day. In fact there were other breeds I was more interested in, and breeds to this day that hold my intrigue more than GSDs but it really wasn't that hard to figure out they weren't a match. I got a GSD because it ticked off all my boxes, not because I wanted a GSD and insisted on fitting one into my boxes. It was not rocket science and _*I've seen people with considerably more time, money, and resources put a lot less effort into choosing a dog like they are choosing their next take-out meal *_so no, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them ending up with what they get.



THIS THIS THIS. I see this ALL THE TIME with friends and acquaintances. It is _*SO*_ frustrating to me, then I see their FB posts about "My dog chewed up my bed today!!" "Why won't this dog potty-train!!" on and on and on! Not just purebreds, either. Many and/or most are people that get dogs from the shelter; which still should require thought, foresight and research. I always tell people this is an ANIMAL that's potentially with them for 10-15 years, and can bite people. They remark about how well-behaved my animals are, but do not see (or ignore) the time and effort I put into them--including the thought process BEFORE getting them. It seems that they just decide they want a dog and the next day they get one. GRRRR. 

:angryfire: 

:headbang:


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> *Amen. *



X's a million!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Or people are like "I want a GSD puppy in 3 weeks max and I will drive 30 minutes and pay $500" and I expect a breeder to give THEM the pick temperaments?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

doggiedad said:


> what makes you think nerves/temperamant isn't #1 on a
> breeders list? i think most of the problems people encounter
> with their dogs is due to a lack of proper training, proper
> socializing and a lack of proper care in general when raising
> a dog.


#1 on the list of any breeder worth the name? Sure. #1 on the list of the newspaper/craigslist/flea market breeder? Hardly. I own a newspaper dog and if you say I haven't trained, socialized, and cared for him properly throughout his 10+ years I'll call you a liar to your face and knock you down. Same with xxMyRoxyxx and her Rocky. Same with my friend Katie and her newspaper pup Leo. Same with my brother-in-law and his dog, and the people I've met in puppy class and obedience classes, getting some of the best instruction available in the metroplex about how to overcome their GSD's nerve and temperament issues. If these people-- conscientious owners who care enough about their dogs to buy books and join forums and pay for classes and hire trainers-- can't raise a dog who isn't afraid of its own shadow, there's something wrong with the genes. You shouldn't need a Ph.D in Dog to raise a stable animal.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> THIS THIS THIS. I see this ALL THE TIME with friends and acquaintances. It is _*SO*_ frustrating to me, then I see their FB posts about "My dog chewed up my bed today!!" "Why won't this dog potty-train!!" on and on and on! Not just purebreds, either. Many and/or most are people that get dogs from the shelter; which still should require thought, foresight and research. I always tell people this is an ANIMAL that's potentially with them for 10-15 years, and can bite people. They remark about how well-behaved my animals are, but do not see (or ignore) the time and effort I put into them--including the thought process BEFORE getting them. It seems that they just decide they want a dog and the next day they get one. GRRRR.
> 
> :angryfire:
> 
> :headbang:


YES YES YES!!! 

God bless her but a friend of mine bought her self and family an ausi shep. When I told her I was getting my pup she looked at me and said 

"Oh no, thats going to be a big mistake. We are already thinking about giving ours away." 

I said let me guess... and riddled out a list of the undesirable traits she might have experienced... its everything you would expect from someone who put NO THOUGHT into getting their pet other than the price and desire! 

Its very frustrating.

(They did end up rehoming to her sister who was better prepared for an ausi shep and what that entailed.)


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> #1 on the list of any breeder worth the name? Sure. #1 on the list of the newspaper/craigslist/flea market breeder? Hardly. I own a newspaper dog and if you say I haven't trained, socialized, and cared for him properly throughout his 10+ years I'll call you a liar to your face and knock you down. Same with xxMyRoxyxx and her Rocky. Same with my friend Katie and her newspaper pup Leo. Same with my brother-in-law and his dog, and the people I've met in puppy class and obedience classes, getting some of the best instruction available in the metroplex about how to overcome their GSD's nerve and temperament issues. If these people-- conscientious owners who care enough about their dogs to buy books and join forums and pay for classes and hire trainers-- can't raise a dog who isn't afraid of its own shadow, there's something wrong with the genes. You shouldn't need a Ph.D in Dog to raise a stable animal.


Could not have said it better.

Jack has very solid nerves and was very easy to train. 

The two things go hand in hand.

Dogs with bad nerves will always have bad nerves. It's not the dogs fault though.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i think most of the problems people encounter
> with their dogs is due to a lack of proper training, proper
> socializing and a lack of proper care in general when raising
> a dog.


I have seen dogs who were untrained, unsocialized, and poorly cared for and yet, they had GREAT temperaments. Dogs in horrid abuse or neglect situations--you'd think these dogs would be permanently traumatized, fearful, aggressive, and neurotic. Yet, these dogs will lick your hands, wag their tails incessantly, and want nothing more than to love you. It's amazing. 

The only explanation for this is that temperament is genetic.

But you're right, a lot of people don't know (or don't care) how to properly raise and train a dog, so they don't know how to mitigate problems when they arise.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'll have to disagree with this 

"what makes you think nerves/temperamant isn't #1 on a
breeders list? i think most of the problems people encounter
with their dogs is due to a lack of proper training, proper
socializing and a lack of proper care in general when raising
a dog. "

Having been in the ring as a handler I have seen many dogs that were doted on and prepared that were just plain nerve bags. They were so tense they would either knock knees and shiver or become rigid statues. While apprenticing for obedience judge and doing the sanction match circuit gsd in akc/ckc type obedience walking as if on egg shells , very tentative . In one trial I was in taking place in Montreal a very windy day , there were dogs that could not handle the decorative V shaped flags which were part of the rope defining the ring , or the snap of the large flag . That particular show there was local news coverage and on the long down out of sight , the camera man decided to do a commando crawl behind the dogs to show "a dogs eye view" perspective. Three dogs remained in the down position. Some just milled around in the ring and were collected by the judge and ring stewards, others bolted and were caught by people watching . The camera man happened to be directly behind my dog , who had only looked behind her to acknowledge his presence and then remain in place looking for my returning to the ring . Having been out of sight for 5 minutes it was a huge surprise to come back and see what had happened. 
We see well cared for dogs avoid or repel from the decoy in so many youtubeys offered , even at the highest levels of competition - sorry but in this group the show lines come to mind. 
Working line dogs are not spared as inappropriate sharpness if very wrong also.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I'll have to disagree with this
> 
> "what makes you think nerves/temperamant isn't #1 on a
> breeders list? i think most of the problems people encounter
> ...


So maybe these dogs don't belong in the ring? If they can't compete or be shown, they won't be bought and the breeder will have to think about what they are breeding. Maybe a dog that acts like this should be disqualified and maybe the rules should be a little more clear on what acceptable behavior is for a GSD.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Just like people have opinions with limited exposure to what their opinion is about, their are many breeders( reputable and not reputable ) that have limited experience with working with this breed in any capacity that would enable them to realize or recognize good nerve. I think the Point of the amount of shyness/inappropriate aggression in the breed today is simply startling. And though the aggression issues often have inappropriate handling along with weak nerves, the extreme shyness is almost totally weak nerves. And most of these dogs weren't abused like the apologist like to lament....cause if a good nerved dog was raised the same way the dog would adjust and wouldn't have the issues. There are plenty of reasons for the deterioration of nerve in this breed....from breeder to owners....but to think this is not in rampant in the breed today is either naïveté or just plain stubbornness in accepting....but folks the breed is in trouble,IMO!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

llombardo said:


> So maybe these dogs don't belong in the ring? If they can't compete or be shown, they won't be bought and the breeder will have to think about what they are breeding. Maybe a dog that acts like this should be disqualified and maybe the rules should be a little more clear on what acceptable behavior is for a GSD.


Agree! That is why Schutzhund was brought in as a test for the dogs - originally, even the BH had the gunfire test - any dog reacting negatively to the gun shots were failed. 

But AKC actively discouraged any bite training in dogs - they did not understand (and many people do not understand) that a solid balanced dog with bite training does not go around randomly attacking the elderly and eating young people, any more than a Martial Arts expert, who has been in training since childhood would go around beating people up just because they can. 

Many, many, MANY of us on this board have dogs that show real strength and fight in protection training, but are fully sweet, easy-going, friendly dogs in all sorts of public situations. 

It's like others have said - people have NO idea what "Good Temperament" in a GSD means - and it means something different for a GSD than a hunting breed, or a guardian breed, or a toy breed. I've seen breeder websites where they breed for "unique and unusual" colors claim that temperament is their #1 priority, but then have a write up about one of their breeding females about how wonderful she is, but is shy and fearful of strangers (which they confuse with aloofness), but is extremely protective and loyal (which means that the dog is fear aggressive, is in a constant mode of anxiety and barks at everything that moves because the poor thing is scared out of her mind, and the loyalty is the dog being to afraid to move more than three feet away from the security of their owner). 

And this is one of their breeding dogs - touted for good temperament. Makes you really scratch your head. 

I often link this article as one of my favorites about temperament. In my opinion, it should be required reading for every GSD owner, future owner, wanna-be owners, and should be memorized and recited daily by GSD breeders:
Elem. of Temperament


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

I think breeders AND buyers are to blame and it will be an ongoing issue for all the reasons stated here. I encounter many people (and I live in a rural area) who have no idea about dog ownership in general (most are dog owners). The best we can do is educate at every opportunity. I had one co-worker planning to get a rottie. I gave her books and advice, they got the dog, and eventually put it down after it had bitten multiple people. Their intentions were good, but people just don't know what they're seeing or looking for when they decide they want a dog. I tell people to get a breed calendar, and they can see what they think they want every day. Mostly it's a certain look or image they want.
Sue


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

llombardo said:


> So maybe these dogs don't belong in the ring? If they can't compete or be shown, they won't be bought and the breeder will have to think about what they are breeding. Maybe a dog that acts like this should be disqualified and maybe the rules should be a little more clear on what acceptable behavior is for a GSD.


Rules are pretty clear, judges are the problem. There is no worst blind than the one who doesn't want to see.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if a dog has bad genetics you're in for a problem. i don't
think the majority of dogs have bad genetics. i think
their owners have bad training and socializing skills.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

doggiedad said:


> if a dog has bad genetics you're in for a problem. i don't
> think the majority of dogs have bad genetics. i think
> their owners have bad training and socializing skills.


You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think that is true. There are a lot more dogs out there from pet-breeders who are breeding weak genetics that will not improve despite the effort of their owners.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

Emoore, clam down. i'm always on your side. you don't
have to call me a liar or knock me down but if you
did knock me down depending on my dogs reaction
i could start a thread titled "will my dog protect me" or "my dog
didn't protect me when Emoore called me a liar and
knocked me down". :laugh:



doggiedad said:


> what makes you think nerves/temperamant isn't #1 on a
> breeders list? i think most of the problems people encounter
> with their dogs is due to a lack of proper training, proper
> socializing and a lack of proper care in general when raising
> a dog.





Emoore said:


> #1 on the list of any breeder worth the name? Sure. #1 on the list of the newspaper/craigslist/flea market breeder? Hardly.
> 
> >>>> I own a newspaper dog and if you say I haven't trained, socialized, and cared for him properly throughout his 10+ years I'll call you a liar to your face and knock you down. <<<<
> 
> Same with xxMyRoxyxx and her Rocky. Same with my friend Katie and her newspaper pup Leo. Same with my brother-in-law and his dog, and the people I've met in puppy class and obedience classes, getting some of the best instruction available in the metroplex about how to overcome their GSD's nerve and temperament issues. If these people-- conscientious owners who care enough about their dogs to buy books and join forums and pay for classes and hire trainers-- can't raise a dog who isn't afraid of its own shadow, there's something wrong with the genes. You shouldn't need a Ph.D in Dog to raise a stable animal.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> Agree! That is why Schutzhund was brought in as a test for the dogs - originally, even the BH had the gunfire test - any dog reacting negatively to the gun shots were failed.
> 
> But AKC actively discouraged any bite training in dogs - they did not understand (and many people do not understand) that a solid balanced dog with bite training does not go around randomly attacking the elderly and eating young people, any more than a Martial Arts expert, who has been in training since childhood would go around beating people up just because they can.
> 
> ...


Beautiful post -- absolutely agree!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> if a dog has bad genetics you're in for a problem. i don't
> think the majority of dogs have bad genetics. i think
> their owners have bad training and socializing skills.


 
So you think that people of 20-30 or more years ago were better at socializing and training than they are today? Back when we used choke collars and non-positive corrections?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> if a dog has bad genetics you're in for a problem. i don't
> think the majority of dogs have bad genetics. i think
> their owners have bad training and socializing skills.


On what do you base this opinion?

Sometimes you have dogs with bad genetics and bad owners. That is a powder keg.

Sometimes you have dogs with good genetics and bad owners. These dogs are, surprisingly, pretty well-adjusted and stable, despite bad training and socialization.

Sometimes you have dogs with bad genetics and good owners. These folks know how to train, socialize, and manage the dog effectively so that the problems (fearfulness, weak nerve, aggression, etc) are minimized and the dog's good qualities are emphasized. In most cases the dog becomes managable.

Core, genetic good temperament is very difficult to ruin. Hence abused dogs that come to you with wagging tail and lick your hands. Core weak temperament is challenging to improve, but can be done with savvy ownership. Most of the dogs that I see with temperament problems, are due to genetic temperament flaws which are unwittingly exacerbated by the owner--the nervous, fearful dog is coddled, the aggressive dog is petted "to calm him down", etc. I don't think it's possible to change genetics, but much can be affected by environment.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"So maybe these dogs don't belong in the ring? If they can't compete or be shown, they won't be bought and the breeder will have to think about what they are breeding. Maybe a dog that acts like this should be disqualified and maybe the rules should be a little more clear on what acceptable behavior is for a GSD"

Very good start -- so what do you think of this sample then JELLO Wienerau , who was run off the field , failed to engage the helper , running circles around him , and when he got a low placement (Peter Arth???) an SV judge was disappointed . The dog still got a V-4 --- 
People from the working camp said the dog had a pretty appropriate name whether prounced jello or yello (j=y)
Hein Konigsbruch , sire of Canto , who only had a "present" fighting instinct and low ability/desire to work .


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> So you think that people of 20-30 or more years ago were better at socializing and training than they are today?


In one respect, yes I do. Simply because the world was a different place. Look at all the feral dogs in third world cities living on top of one another. Take a look at all our homeless people, with their dogs sitting calmly beside them. Before there were leash laws the dogs who had the opportunity to roam around had better nerves because of it. But most people here aren't old enough to remember when you'd just open the kitchen door and let your dog out into your unfenced yard, that's going waaaaay back, lol!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> In one respect, yes I do. Simply because the world was a different place. Look at all the feral dogs in third world cities living on top of one another. Take a look at all our homeless people, with their dogs sitting calmly beside them. Before there were leash laws the dogs who had the opportunity to roam around had better nerves because of it. But most people here aren't old enough to remember when you'd just open the kitchen door and let your dog out into your unfenced yard, that's going waaaaay back, lol!


Where I live people still do. I don't think it leads to a more socialized dog, just more dogs hit by cars and shot by other neighbors. (Then again I guess that does take them out of the gene pool pretty fast if they tick off the neighbors, only the friendly well behaved smart car savy ones survive). You may be on to something here.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

PatchonGSD said:


> I dont think that breeders _not _breeding for nerves is the problem, its the BYB's who are mass producing puppies and the people who are buying them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that many of those 20 something threads mentioned are about dogs who came from "less than desirable" places.


I think that John Q Public still thinks that looking in the classified section of the newspaper is the place to buy a dog. I see it all the time. A coworker did this, the area code was Missouri, the woman wanted cash and met her in a McDonald's parking lot with 4 crates of puppies in the back of her car.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Where I live people still do. I don't think it leads to a more socialized dog, just more dogs hit by cars and shot by other neighbors. (Then again I guess that does take them out of the gene pool pretty fast if they tick off the neighbors, only the friendly well behaved smart car savy ones survive). You may be on to something here.


When I grew up dogs roamed. It wasn't about socialization.
It was survival of the most fit. So the weaker dogs ran away or were hit by cars etc...
The remaining dogs were usually very sound.

You cannot fix weak genetics but as Freestep said you can manage some of them. 

A lot to of people do not have the time or knowledge to do this.

If they can't handle their dog then we all know where the dogs wind up.

I feel for these dog with weak nerve and temperament because it's not their fault.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> I feel for these dog with weak nerve and temperament because it's not their fault.


I know, it's sad. Another thing that's sad is when people think they're getting a sound dog because they're going to a breeder. I know someone who had to put her GSD down at 2 because he bit her neighbor in the throat. Now we can speculate all day long on how and why this tragedy happened, but it doesn't change the fact that the owner thought she was buying from a good source and she was heartbroken. But this is a local breeder proud of her black GSDs, I was told.

I always find these threads confusing because I have a hard time calling everyone who mates a male with a female a 'breeder'. Producing offspring doesn't make a breeder, in my eyes.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I feel for these dog with weak nerve and temperament because it's not their fault.


Yep, you and a whole lot of other people who are now encouraged, and in many cases shamed, into adopting these kinds of dogs. Breeders are now considered "evil" in the eyes of many. We have a rather huge Animal Rights movement in this country. If I thought they knew anything about animals, I might give them credit for managing a rather clever plot to end pet ownership by encouraging people to adopt the ones who really are not capable of being "pets".

As for the rest of what is said here...... First of all, no "savvy dog trainer" would be "petting an aggressive dog to calm it down". Second, it was inferred that all dogs who have good genetics are well behaved, no matter who is handling him. I am sorry but as a dog trainer for the last ...well, lifetime , I can assure you, people can make a huge mess of very good dogs. 
People seem to be leaving out the natural protective instinct the GSD was intended to possess. THIS is where so many people screw things up and BADLY. It is also something huge numbers of people, including SchH trainers, and many people on this board, have no idea about. They immediately label a protective dog, "fear aggressive" or "defensive". Or, they do what so many people here just did with their idea of what a description " really means". This kind of cynical thinking and ignorance is having a major impact on the breed.

I think people nowadays are more nervous, neurotic and unqualified to handle protective breeds. They think showing a dog a cookie and asking him stare at it, is the solution to any of the problems they encounter. They also think they can behave any way they want and the dog should not be affected. This is an intuitive breed that feels what we feel. To think they can't, is ignorance about the breed and even dogs in general. The point about how dogs were kept years ago plays into this. People didn't freak out about every little thing and were not trying to ban breeds right and left. We didn't have a media and politicians who had figured out that scaring the bejesus out of people, makes them easy to control. 

When we train protection here, the handler is instructed to play the role just as much as the bad guy does. That means they alert their dog to a problem, ( the bad guy), with how they behave and handle their dog. I can't tell you how MANY people I watch who do the same thing, ( without realizing it of course), with their GSD in public settings. They tell their dog "something is wrong" with their nervous, fearful behavior and the "good dogs" will start looking for ways to help the handler. The nervous dogs will react as well but there is simply a huge difference in the behavior of both kinds of dogs. It is quite clear to anyone who knows DOGS ...and that is the problem. People know more about computers than they do animals and when they decide to get a dog, most of the time, what they really want, is a machine. Also, we now have herds of unqualified "behaviorlists ", who really have NO idea about protective breeds. They rely on a vocabulary of terms to label dogs without much, if any, real experience with those same kinds of dogs. What they are doing, is simply a huge disservice to the people and the dogs. We also have Vets who will not hesitate to put a dog on Prozac as a solution to what is many times, behaviors created by the handler.


The dogs without socialization are many times better off because of one simple fact. No training is better than bad training. As a general rule, people have NO idea how to provide direction and how to introduce their young dogs to new places and situations. They leave it up to the dog to decide how to deal with people, (who are many times uncomfortable and look like they are), and they give no direction to those same people who do things that are simply inappropriate. 
The breed needs a level of suspicion and certainly social aggression. These dogs do require handlers who will take the time to understand them and most of all, are people who handle them in a confident manner. I have owned many of these kinds of dogs . They have never bitten anyone but they know I don't need their help. If I do, I will ask for it and I have no doubt they will protect me. I am very clear and I am not there confusing them with my behavior, when people who mean no harm are in the vicinity. Also, I can assure you, the Germans realized that GSDs needed a certain kind of handler. I have not known one who would say what is being said here. I am talking about the ones I met years ago, the ones who REALLY understood dogs and training and the GSD.

Last, you cannot change a dog's basic temperament with "savvy training". It will always show thru but I have seen dogs simply transform completely, once I helped the people get a grip on themselves. I used to tell myself I was a dog trainer but really, most of what I do is counseling and training people about behavior....theirs.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Anne, as usual :thumbup:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Anne, as usual :thumbup:


Me too.

I do want to clarify that because I feel for those dogs doesn't mean I want one.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Anne's post is EXACTLY why we NEED people like her to post. 

Fabulous post to read.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

FlyAway said:


> I think that John Q Public still thinks that looking in the classified section of the newspaper is the place to buy a dog. I see it all the time. A coworker did this, the area code was Missouri, the woman wanted cash and met her in a McDonald's parking lot with 4 crates of puppies in the back of her car.


I agree and I have to add that-while research is always important-it still doesnt prevent a novice or first time GSD owner from ending up buying from a byb with a nice website or from a "professional byb" (someone who truly think they are breeding good dogs, but arent.) Most internet searches often lead a person first to these types of breeders.

How is the general public supposed to find breeders like Huerta Hof or Wildhaus, (just for example) unless they happen to come across a board like this? Where do these types of great breeders of solid dogs advertise?


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

My guess is that the general public usually cant find the "real" breeders and/or end up being fooled by fancy websites and lingo from those who arent and then we eventually meet those buyers here in the behavior/aggression sections.....


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Anne and Cliff summed it up. Too many breeders today have very little respect or knowledge about the historicalcharacteristics/traits this breed; and German shepherds are not the dog for everyone.
Faithful, intelligent, loyal, protective, nerves of steel are the characteristics that the breed was built on.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

lhczth said:


> Anne, as usual :thumbup:


Me three! Love every word of it.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Vandal said:


> ....
> People seem to be leaving out the natural protective instinct the GSD was intended to possess. THIS is where so many people screw things up and BADLY. It is also something huge numbers of people, including SchH trainers, and many people on this board, have no idea about. They immediately label a protective dog, "fear aggressive" or "defensive". Or, they do what so many people here just did with their idea of what a description " really means". This kind of cynical thinking and ignorance is having a major impact on the breed.....
> 
> The breed needs a level of suspicion and certainly social aggression. These dogs do require handlers who will take the time to understand them and most of all, are people who handle them in a confident manner. ...


I thought this was worth re-posting.
I have heard people, with LOADS of experience, refer to dogs who take protection seriously as "nervy." I have heard people say the dog should understand it is a "game."
It makes me question myself sometimes.... because to me..... that is NOT nervy. I have seen and handled nervy dogs. Serious and Nervy are not the same to me.... yet to many people they are.

It is all in who is composing the definition.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Vandal said:


> Also, I can assure you, the Germans realized that GSDs needed a certain kind of handler. I have not known one who would say what is being said here. I am talking about the ones I met years ago, the ones who REALLY understood dogs and training and the GSD.


What a terrific post! Thank you so much for taking the time for all of us. I actually held my breath reading it, lol. If you have a bit more time, could you please elaborate on the quote above? I totally agree with what you've said but the second line confuses me. Thanks again.

ps. I somehow lost a paragraph in my last post.But after Anne's, who cares, lol...anyway, the moral of my story was that you shouldn't pick a breeder by what color dogs they're producing. Duh. Without that, it sounds like I'm picking on the beautiful blacks.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

doggiedad said:


> Emoore, clam down. i'm always on your side. you don't
> have to call me a liar or knock me down but if you
> did knock me down depending on my dogs reaction
> i could start a thread titled "will my dog protect me" or "my dog
> ...


We might have just invented a new protection sport.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

ummm!!



doggiedad said:


> if a dog has bad genetics you're in for a problem. i don't think the majority of dogs have bad genetics. i think
> their owners have bad training and socializing skills.





Freestep said:


> On what do you base this opinion?
> 
> Sometimes you have dogs with bad genetics and bad owners. That is a powder keg.
> 
> ...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Folks, I think we have to be mindful that the overwhelming majority of the breed that has good nerve and common sense owners don't go to dog trainers, pursue advanced training, or have to post in threads on behavior and aggression issues....they live normal lives with their families.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I was just talking about this the other day. The amount of posts under the 'aggression' tab, and how pups and dogs seem to be mishandled or misunderstood. The 'normal' things are either seen as abnormal or the owner has not a clue how to control the dog. I've actually begun to get gun shy toward the breed. That's terrible, because I absolutely LOVE this breed. I don't know how many 'bad breeders' are out there, but for sure they outnumber the 'good breeders'. Too many people either don't know what to look for in a breeder, the sire and dam, and the pups themselves or they just don't know that there are so many people out there breeding nightmares. No one should have to 'manage' their dog. Unfortunately, it seems like there is a new dog nearly every day that needs to be 'managed' because of bad temperament. People now seem to have the same attitude towards shepherds as they do with Pits. I do think that some breeders have good intentions, but they don't know what they're matching up. They believe that if they import a titled dog that is KKL1 and breed it with the same, they're going to have stellar pups. I wonder what's going to happen when the Czech lines go the way of all the others....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jag said:


> I wonder what's going to happen when the Czech lines go the way of all the others....


 
They have never been immune.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Lisa, there are just as many pitfalls in Czech lines as any other lines. Actually, in recent years I think the nerve base of the Czech dogs have benefitted from the curtain coming down.....and introducing West dogs. Used to be a lot more nervy Czech dogs, IMO, early on.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Jag said:


> I was just talking about this the other day. The amount of posts under the 'aggression' tab, and how pups and dogs seem to be mishandled or misunderstood. The 'normal' things are either seen as abnormal or the owner has not a clue how to control the dog.


I don't visit the aggression threads any more, it gets into my nerves. People would be amazed of what a good "NO!" at the right moment can do.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Works for me!....lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thought I would put this dog into this discussion as an example of good nerves -- this dog can really take the pressure !! yet he is clear, responds quickly to his handler and has no residual (or leaky) behaviour - when it is over it is over -- enjoy


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Inox is product of one of my favorite breeders; Ma Ming. Inox is the sire of Dodge Kiridesja ÖÖÈ®-Stud Dog-st_dodge1 who is pure gangster. 

My dog's grandsire, Kobalt, is closely related to Inox and I believe Ruger has inherited much of his fantastic character down from this line. I am very fond of the dogs coming out of the Netherlands.
http://www.vomhausming.com/st_dodge1.htm


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Vandal said:


> Yep, you and a whole lot of other people who are now encouraged, and in many cases shamed, into adopting these kinds of dogs. Breeders are now considered "evil" in the eyes of many. We have a rather huge Animal Rights movement in this country. If I thought they knew anything about animals, I might give them credit for managing a rather clever plot to end pet ownership by encouraging people to adopt the ones who really are not capable of being "pets".



Ummm.... I really don't think that shelters and rescues are the problem here. In fact, most dogs that make it to the adoption floor have gone through more formal and informal temperament tests than any dog from a breeder - reputable or otherwise. And, the ones that make it to the adoption floor pass these tests under the most stressful of circumstances. 

So, while I may agree with other points of your post, I feel that the way you opened it lacks perspective of what really happens with shelter and rescue dogs.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Castlemaid ... you wrote: But AKC actively discouraged any bite training in dogs - they did not understand (and many people do not understand) that a solid balanced dog with bite training does not go around randomly attacking the elderly and eating young people, any more than a Martial Arts expert, who has been in training since childhood would go around beating people up just because they can. 

WHAT? So I've been brainwashed? LOL 

I LOVED your whole post, and I agree with most of the people on this thread. I have a beautiful GSD whose temperament is amazing ... but honestly, I BUSTED MY BUTT working with her, training, etc. and spending lots of time with her, teaching, guiding, etc. 

I've seen so many people that try someone once or twice and give up, simply because the dog didn't get it. When I see a dog with problems? For the most part (not just GSDs here, any dog) I always wonder at what point the owner gave up and just let the dog "be." A dog is NOT equipped to survive in the human world without training - we have too many rules that simply don't make sense to them. 

I have only been around for about a month or so, and I'm amazed at the number of "aggressive" dogs I read about on here. It breaks my heart. 

I had "mental images" of Rin Tin Tin when I got Kyleigh and while I don't have that "famous dog" (or was it 4 or 5 dogs? LOL) I did know that I would have to put in LOADS of work to get what I wanted ... I have and I've enjoyed almost every minute of it!

What a great thread ...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I haven't seen loads of GSD breeders of Czech dogs. From what I've seen in the past 20 years, the majority of "issues" come from badly bred dogs...which few are Czech. It seems that the majority of Czech dogs come from more reputable breeders that have at least half a clue what they're doing. That was my point. Not that Czech dogs as a whole don't have any issues. They just aren't the widely over bred and poorly bred messes that the other lines seem to have fallen prey to.


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