# BSL Attempt in Oregon



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Anyone have a good letter I can send?

Radical Ore. bill would ban pit bulls from state

Story Updated: Feb 28, 2009 at 10:50 AM PST 
By Meghan Kalkstein, KATU News, and KATU.com Staff Watch the story PORTLAND, Ore. - A new bill on pit bulls that hasn't even hit the Oregon Senate floor yet is already getting a lot of heat from folks on both side of the issue.

Under a bill from Sen. Bruce Starr's office, owning a pit bull would be illegal in Oregon and the state would punish those who own one by euthanizing the dog, slapping the owner with thousands of dollars in fines and perhaps even throwing them in jail. 

And if your pit bull killed someone? Then you could be fined $125,000, spend five years in jail or both.

Those who already own a pit bull would be grandfathered in, so to speak. They would have to obtain a permit to keep the pit bull (for a fee) and provide a certificate from a veterinarian showing that the dog had been sterilized.

Here is the summary that is laid out in the draft of the bill:

Prohibits keeping of pit bull. Creates exception for pit bulls currently in state upon meeting certain conditions. Declares pit bull dangerous dog and makes keeping of pit bull punishable by euthanization of dog and by maximum of $6,250 fine, one year's imprisonment, or both. If dog kills person, punishes by maximum of $125,000 fine, five years' imprisonment, or both. Read the entire bill (pdf)


The bill has not had a first reading on the Senate floor yet. That is expected in a week or two.

http://media.komonews.com/documents/090227_pit_bull_bill.pdf

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/40476252.html


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

I know I will catch H3ll for this but I don't see a big problem with it except for how they define them.I'm not a big fan of the government telling us what we can have for pets.but we can't just keep a tiger or a grizzly bear ether.and I do not think GSD's are next.how many GSD's have killed anyone lately??if your child was killed by a pb would you be ok with spending only 5 years in lockup.I think if one kill my gsd 5 years would not be enough .


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## Brandon Coker (Jan 9, 2009)

GSDs are used for to many things government related to "be next" anyway.....I hope.

Anyway, problem is after the US bans the APB people will pick the next bad a$$ dog and start over breeding and you will see tons of idiots who should not even have goldfish, with these dogs. 

Question is...where does it end?

I don't care for the APB but I say fight for them...though I have to be honest, I would not have had this opinion a month ago. This board made me see things a little different.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Except that tigers and grizzly bears are wild animals. And domesticated dogs are, well, domesticated dogs. Some breeds have been misused by terrible owners more than others. But they're still domesticated dogs. There are LOTS of bully breed dogs that are friendly, stable, wonderful dogs, and reliable around children, other dogs, cats, etc.

I can't say that about too many bears and tigers. I've met a couple bears in the back country, and they were pleasant enough, but I don't think they're really reliable (except that they'll reliably act like wild animals) when push comes to shove. 

BTW, children get bitten by small dogs (and these bites are usually in the face where they cause a lot of lasting damage). But these are settled with the owner's insurance company quickly and quietly. The news doesn't sweep in and flash "child bitten by a pomeranian! News at 11!" over all of our TV sets. 

I know. I used to work A LOT of dog bite claims. Many really ugly ones involving a lot of scarring, nearly all of them toy dogs, one Dalmatian, and I think a lab or two. Never a GSD, never a APBT, rott or dobie.

The news never covered those cases. Not once. Hmmmm...


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

and I'm not talking about a bite it says KILLS someone!!also I would not call APBT stable or reliable breed.the only thing reliable is the breeders lol.BTW where I live I really doubt that most of the PB owners have home owners insurance and if they do it probably won't cover a PB mauling.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

my point about the wild animals is the government says you are not able to have them.whats the difference.gold fish are not domesticated either


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Gold fish is not a native species of fish. Far different from wild animals.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

This has to stop. The problem is NOT the breed of dog (duh) it's the people who own them. Something has to be done about the people who own the dogs, not the dogs themselves. 

It makes me sick to my stomach, and I don't understand it at all. Is there anything specific that can be done to stop this on a large scale? Are there any groups that are actively working against this sort of thing with any level of success?


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## oregongsdr111 (Nov 20, 2005)

If this were to pass I say let’s give Sen. Bruce Starr several bottles of fatal plus, (euthanasia solution) and 10,000 syringes and let him have a go at taking the lives of people beloved pets.

To people that respond that Pits have no value and are killers with locking jaws, you are uneducated and misinformed. Think about how many pit bull are in our society, and how few cases we really hear about. We should evaluate each incident on a case by case basis.

In my 8 years experience with animal control and caring for the dogs being held for quarantine, the majority of the dogs are small breed dogs, lab mixes, herding dogs, and Shepherd mixes. 

I could tell you the most graphic details of how a child looks when a Jack Russell Terrier splits a Childs face in two. How a child looks when a Doxie rips its ear off. How a child reacts when a German Shepherd rips fingers off and then drags the kid by the skull until it is shot. 

Government needs to regulate humans. We are the ones that are supposed to know right from wrong. Instead of licensing my dog, maybe I should be required to carry a license verifying I am trained, and mentally sound enough to own a dog.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Found this in my wandering:

Dear : 

This is in response to the pending legislation in your jurisdiction as to regulating vicious/potentially dangerous dogs via breed specific legislation. 

All dogs are dangerous under certain circumstances. Only when the owner or custodian of the animal does not properly train and confine his/her animal, does that animal pose a potential risk to human safety. A common ingredient to the dog personality is to guard and protect it's owner and property. ANY dog with that personality can become a problem for the public, if that dog is allowed to run loose and is not responsibly supervised. The key word here is responsibility (per Websters, definition of responsibility: Being legally or ethically accountable for the welfare or care of another.) To say certain breeds of dogs are dangerous is not a complete statement. All dogs can be dangerous if in the hands of an irresponsible owner. 

Please retract your breed specific bill/ordinance. Don't punish all of us responsible owners that maintain our dogs as companions and members of our families. We can and do maintain our dogs so they do not pose a threat to anyone, why should we be denied our companions simply because irresponsible owners of the same breed of dog have not "ethically and legally" protected others from injury? 

There are several samples of existing non-breed specific legislation (ie., the State of California) that is competent to regulate the irresponsible owners and not punish those that maintain their dogs safely and humanely. I, as a responsible dog owner, ask that you seriously consider the impact of breed specific legislation. The irresponsible owners don't care what breed of dog they lose the right to own....they'll find another dog breed to fit their needs. I deeply care, because it threatens me with the loss of a family member. 

Sincerely,


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

And just found this:

http://stopbsl.com/take-action/write-letters/
Write Letters
I used to offer sample letters for people to use when writing to their legislators. Not anymore. And I strongly urge you to avoid using a sample letter or form letter to contact your elected officials. Why?
•	A recent Gallup Poll found that over 70% of all lawmakers said they pay a great deal of attention to personally written letters, while only 19% pay great attention to form letters. 
•	Elected officials believe that similar-sounding letters come from lobby groups engaging in pressure campaigns. If your letter sounds like it’s been copied, you get lumped in with the “radicals.” 
•	Form letters are quick and easy—and elected officials know it. They aren’t going to believe that you are genuinely concerned about the issue if you don’t take the time to write your own letter. 
Here are some quick tips for writing an effective letter to your elected officials. The actual words are up to you, but even if you don’t think you’re a very good writer, don’t freak out! Just do your best, be polite, and touch on what you feel are the most important points. Your personal attention and effort will count much more than any textbook form letter.
YES
•	Be polite and respectful. 
•	Address your elected official properly. For senators and representatives, “The Honorable” precedes the name on an envelope, and the letter starts with “Dear Senator…” or “Dear Representative…” If you aren’t sure, do a Google search. 
•	Your first sentence should hit the main point of your letter. “I am writing to ask you to vote against HB 2304.” “Please make the community a safer place by supporting non-breed-specific dog legislation.” 
•	Explain who you are, whether you are a constituent, and how the legislation would affect you. Include your contact information. 
•	Keep your argument brief. With a few exceptions, letters should be short (one page long) and to the point. 
•	Choose a few most important points to make and forget about the rest. Don’t worry about not covering everything—any points that you can’t fit into your letter will probably be hit on by someone else. 
•	Check this page for a summary of arguments against BSL to use/avoid. 
•	Cite facts and examples to support your argument. Make sure what you’re saying is factual—find reliable sources for any facts you provide. 
•	Provide non-breed-specific alternatives to BSL. 
•	Say “thank you for your consideration” or “thank you for your assistance” at the close of the letter. 
NO
•	Don’t send a form letter or a barely-altered sample letter. 
•	Don’t be rude, threatening, insulting, etc. Do not name-call. This will backfire—in some cases, very badly. 
•	You do not need to mention that you are “a taxpayer and a citizen.” It sounds aggressive and arrogant, and besides, the elected official probably assumes as much already. 
•	Do not issue an ultimatum (also known as the “or else” statement). In other words, do not say “Vote against this or else I won’t vote for you.” 
•	Don’t send additional material. But do offer to send additional material upon request. 
•	If you own a targeted breed and you are addressing an official who has proposed BSL or who has voiced negative opinions about that breed, I advise you to avoid mentioning your dog’s breed. You may say you are a dog owner, or you might say you are a constituent who would be negatively affected by BSL. Pit bull owners, in particular, have to overcome a very strong negative stereotype. Certain legislators have publicly stated that they consider owners of targeted breeds to be “crazy” to own “ticking time bombs.” They have scoffed at input from “rabid pit bull lovers.” It will be easier to make a persuasive argument if you do not mention your dog’s breed; this prevents the legislator from making a snap judgment about your sanity or intelligence. 
•	If the legislator sends you a response (this is rare, but does happen), you do not need to write again unless the legislator is requesting additional information. 
•	If you don’t get a response from an elected official, don’t take it personally. This is normal. They get a great deal of correspondence and they don’t have enough time to reply to all of it. You can make a follow-up call to the official if you feel it is necessary. 
More Links
For more tips, check out these various advocacy and government sites and see what they advise their members and supporters to do. (Note: Some tips may not apply to you because they are aimed at a specific audience and deal with a different issue.)
http://www.lakecountyfn.org/lc-lwv/contact.html#effective
http://www.ucsusa.org/ucsaction/writing-letters.html
http://www.cra.org/govaffairs/advocacy/writecong.html


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

Is there an email address to send a letter to?


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

OK don't get me wrong I don't think That they need to just start killing PB'S.But I think that maybe a permit or test or something to make sure that the owners are responsible enough to own one.and sure there are kind loving pits.but I still think that some are very dangerous due to bad breeding and the way some are raised.and I do not believe that an full on attack from a PB and a lab are going to be the same.I may be a little bias but I lived next to some thugs with 3 or 4 of them and my life was a living **** for over 3 years.and do you think I could get help from animal control or law enforcement not a chance.NOPE I had to carry a base ball bat Every time I left the house.and my DW is not very good with one.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

Careful what you wish for!!


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I understand you may not have had good experiences with Pit Bulls. But the point is that it is NOT the breed of dog. It is the people, or "thugs" as you referred to them. The breed of dog itself is naturally very good and sweet with people. I'm curious, have you ever watched how the dogs they use for fighting are with the people who actually put them in the fighting pit? They are scared and submissive. These dogs are very willing to do whatever their owner asks of them, which makes them the perfect victims for the crime of dogfighting. 
They are not naturally human aggressive, and I think you will find from people who have years and years of experience in the animal and dogworld, both as careers and hobbies, that pit bulls are not the most unbalanced breed as a whole. This is my opinion.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Bill author is Senator Bruce Starr

Senator Bruce Starr
Party: R District: 15
Capitol Phone: 503-986-1715
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE., S-411, Salem, OR, 97302
Email: [email protected]


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

And then it'll be GSDs, then Rotties, then Dobies, then Chows, then.....well hopefully you get the idea.

BSL just plain does not work


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

And by the way, one of the incidents that made the news this past year was at the end of my street - so believe me, I understand concern........BUT............I'm just as concerned about the mix that charged Dante and I a few weeks ago, and I'd bet dimes to dollars that that dog had no Bully in him anywhere.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

This is such a sad situation, but I have heard of a number of these types of things trying to pass on a local level and don't so hopefully that is a good sign. I feel bad for the dogs because many of them are dogs that would never snap. I don't agree with a complete ban, but I can't say I would disagree with needing a permit that would be contingent upon behavior assessments.

I have known many people with APB who have shown agression to animals or people and the owners show no concern for this fact. I know a very sweet APB who snaps any time there is an opossom--can jump and get them off a fence and will literally rip them to shreds--and I can't see how it does not alarm the owners. On the other hand, I knew an APB who had an aggressive streek, and the owner got it extensive training using a shock collar and he took the trigger with him everywhere because the quick shock would jolt him out of it somehow. Sometimes the mentality that dogs are a member of the family can get in the way and when the dog shows continued aggression you need to work with the dog to fix the problem or have the dog put down, IMHO.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

I do not believe that those dogs are fighting to please there owner.lf that was so golden retrievers would be the deadliest dog on the planet

lets look at our breed how hard many many have worked to impove it and what a mess it is.no way in h3ll has that kind of effort been put forth with pit's
if it is not the breed why did the thug's pick this breed? because they are sweet hearts HMMM 

it is like comparing a 22 to a AK47


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

Barb If they come after our GSD's I will sic my pitbull on them


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

also I don't think that it is the dog's that are being fought are the same one's that are mauling our children if you watch animal planet cops most of the fighting dogs are hauled off on a leash and then picked up and put in the truck without even a bark or growl


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

^I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. First of all, there are many reasons why people pick pit bulls for fighting. They are currently the bad @#$ dog fad, for one. It was Rotties for a while, and German Shepherds for a while, and Dobermans for a while etc..

Secondly, I don't see how someone on a German Shepherd forum can be so flippant about this situation. What if it was German Shepherds (which have been banned from some places before I'm sure)? Would you be okay with it then? German Shepherds have mauled children. Rotties have. And guess what? So have Golden Retrievers. In fact, if you watch the Dogs 101 episode with GR's on there you will hear at the end of their segment how many cases of aggression and bites of Goldens has been reported lately. It's in the overbreeding of a popular dog by PEOPLE who have no clue what they're doing and have no care for the breed that causes this sort of thing. 
The media likes to cause hysteria among people who have little knowledge of dogs or any animals by reporting JUST pit bull incidents. Like someon above me said, how many times do they report a small dog biting a child? Never. Is it because they don't bite? NO. In fact, small toy dogs are MUCH less tolerant of children than larger breeds and Pit Bulls are great with kids. Can they kill? Yep. But so can ANY DOG. 
If you do not ever want any risk with dogs then you may as well let them just ban them all. Goldens can and do have aggression, and I'm sure you could make them fight as well. But they don't look as tough or as muscled up as pits, who by the way, are often given drugs like cocaine to make them more aggressive. These dogs are the victims. It's the owners you want to go after. If a child is mauled there are two sets of people to blame. The owners of the dog, and the parents for letting a child be alone with a dog. 

Also, I don't want it to seem like I'm picking a fight or anything







I'm just very passionate about this, because it could be your dog next, you know? Or mine. I just don't like this kind of thing. It's the people they should crack down on, and not families who love their dogs like family. I have a niece and nephew and I don't want them mauled either, obviously.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

well I think I have addressed most of the points ^ and we can agree to disagree but just to clear up the point I was trying to make.where I come from I don't think dog fighting is a big issue.like I was trying to say the people that fight there dog's probably have a better breeding program and have better control of there dog's.I think the problem is part people & part the breed.it is a fact that pitbulls are both physically(there bite for one)& mentally different(have a much higher pain threshold)then add in the BYB factor and give it to someone that should not have any animals and nothing good can become of it.I take it you have a PB?I'm more worried about them wanting my guns that my GSD but I think the out come would be the same!!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

http://www.katu.com/news/40578707.html

Pit bull bill that really riled folks up will go no further, lawmaker says

By KATU.com Staff SALEM, Ore. - Proposed pit bull legislation that drew a passionate response from people on both sides of the issue will not be pushed any further, according to the Senator who introduced the bill.

"From the outpouring of interest I have received over the past few days, I have learned that pit bulls are beloved pets, friends and family members," Sen. Bruce Starr (R-Hillsboro) said in a statement released on Monday. "Most pit bulls and their owners are caring and responsible. I have no intention of pushing legislation that would threaten pit bulls or the rights of their owners."

The bill, which would have made owning a pit bull illegal in Oregon and would have even called for the dogs to be euthanized, hadn't made it to the Senate floor. 

"I introduced Senate Bill 667 on behalf of a constituent," Sen. Starr said in his statement. "As the voice of my constituents in the state legislature, I make myself and the service of bill introduction available to them so their ideas can be heard in the legislative process. I may not always agree with the bills they request, but see it as my responsibility to make sure they have an opportunity to advocate for their ideas before the legislature."

Pit bull ownership has been a controversial topic in Oregon for the past several years. On one side, those who own the dogs say they are loving animals just like any other pet. On the other side are the folks who fear the breed and believe there should be protections in place.


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## oregongsdr111 (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

No, I don't have a pit bull







Ironically, I have a chihuahua, lol. I just love animals and dogs in particular and get passionate about this sort of thing. 
I think you made some good points, and I understand where you're coming from, I just happen to disagree with the course of action to stop the same problem. We certainly don't have to agree


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

well in the end I don't think we disagree as much as it may seem.I don't think big brother should be telling us what pets we can have.but on the other side of the coin.I should not have to spend 3 years in **** because of others actions or lack of.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

Great news!









And I don't think you should have to live in fear either


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Great news, Barb. And whew, I can continue spending all that $$$ in Oregon!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yep just read this on another forum. Bill is dead!

Intelligence prevails.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWYep just read this on another forum. Bill is dead!
> 
> Intelligence prevails.


Even though I'm not from Oregon, this is SO great to hear! A win is a win, no matter _where_ it is.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*



> Originally Posted By: oregongsdr111.
> 
> 
> Government needs to regulate humans. We are the ones that are supposed to know right from wrong. Instead of licensing my dog, maybe I should be required to carry a license verifying I am trained, and mentally sound enough to own a dog.


I'm _just_ now reading this thread and saw this quote.... it's a _very_ interesting point and I think one worth considering. Rather than ban the dog, take the time to TEACH people how to take care of them and raise them correctly. Honestly, this kind of makes me thinking of the 8 hr driving course I had to take after I got a ticket... we all need a fresher once in a while.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Not_Just_A_DogNo, I don't have a pit bull
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100%, I too have a Chihuahua as well as two terriers ( JRT, Cairn) as well as Shepherds, and actually the most volatile is the Chihuahua! The fact is Pits are used by thugs as the fighting breed because they have been bred to be confrontational, as have ALL terriers, these dogs have been bred to go face to face with aggressive vermin and such, a Pit has no less of a " terrier" attitude than a JRT, the difference is in the size and power and being made by man to be even more so, I love terriers and their confident natures, I have never met a Pitbull I didn't like, of course I don't hang out in the ghetto so the Pits I see are the true representatives of their breed. It's like the street racers, they enhance the FAST cars to achieve super speed, not the Ford Focus!!


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## marylou (Apr 21, 2006)

I would make *sure* the bill is really dead









We just defeated one kinda like it in Montana (HB191); here is a link to an online petition that can be used if something like this comes up again. The contact person is at the bottom of the form: HERE


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Far more people are killed by cars than by dogs. Why not ban cars?


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## Fafhrd (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Most new laws these days make me cringe, and this one should make any dog lover cringe.

I'm sorry that the thread is being dominated by one person who apparently had a bad experience with a pit bull. I have had some bad experiences with Cocker Spaniels and Chihuhuas, and I generally don't like them, but I certainly don't want to see them banned. I have met a great many pit bulls, and all of them have been sweet dogs. 

We need to fight this sort of legislation instead of quibbling about certain breeds we may not like for personal reasons.


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## Caitlin (Mar 28, 2005)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Glad to see this bill didn't pass.

BSL doesn't do anything except harm responsible owners. Criminals that breed these dogs for fighting and such will continue to do what they're doing. Laws will not stop it, they're already breaking many laws.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

I saw this on the news and was like, THANK YOU GOD for not letting this bill pass! I'm sick and tired of hearing all this banning of certain breeds. I can't even show my dogs in Auburn, WA because shepherds aren't allowd there...


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

And if you ban a breed you may not have news stories like this one either.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29472661/


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Sorry for raining on everyone's parade.`Fafrd your kidding I hope.So anyone here think that they should not ban assault rifles???are they anymore deadly than say a 38 revolver??if you do not want to hear the other side I will step out.and I sorry that my opinion is based on my personal experience.again I do not think that I said that NO ONE should have one.but when they start interfering with my rights we have a problem I would be happy if they made it legal to shoot one on the spot if it interferes with my rights.But I never did even though I wanted to.and I'm sorry that a jack Russell running at me wanting to eat me alive is just not that worrisome.A pitbull ya pretty much.let me know if you want me to step out. but thought this was about discussion not a pitbull love fest


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

one more thing about the golden. I do not believe that there have been an ATTACK by a golden.has a kid ever been bitten yes but probably for doing something he shouldn't have. and there are10X the amount of them.they had the same problem with dalmatians after the movie.and again the bite from a golden is not the same as a PB. just like the bite from a gsd bite is not the same as a Jack russell.


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## kcox82 (Nov 5, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Thank goodness this was not passed... Speaking as a responsible owner of both a GSD and pit. Both wonderful, loving dogs. Frustrates me deeply every time this topic comes up, but all that needs to be said has been said.

Irresponsible people are the problem, period be it parents of children allowed to be around these dogs without supervision (as much as I trust my boys I would never allow my stepson or any of my neices or nephews to play with them with me not present) or owners of these dogs that don't handle or contain them properly.


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## CindyM (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

GSDs are banned in several places in the USA because of BSL. In many more places the legislation is being considered.

harlanr3 - 

I honestly hope you get to spend some time in the future with Pit Bulls to help you overcome your fears.

And, Here's a list of the 10 most dangerous breeds:


http://www.dogpolitics.com/my_weblog/2006/02/top_10_most_dan.html


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I will go back and read the rest of the comments, but it was mentioned that we cannot have a tiger or a grizzly bear. 

Here in Ohio, at least in my county, you can have any wild animal so long as you get an exotic animal permit. This will cost you $40 and it goes through the federal government. Incidently, a kennel license here will cost you $50. 

You can have as many wild animals as you want with that one permit. There are no requirements like Enclosures within and enclosure, and minimum standards for the enclosures. 

A guy keeping a bunch of fur-bearing animals, had a black bear. It got loose. It went into someone's house and was doing a good job of killing her when she was saved by her teenaged daughter weilding bologna. 

I would rather meet a pit bull dog than a domestically raised black bear. But that is just me.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

cindy I have met pitbulls that seemed to be nice dogs' and I hope you get to spend some time with some getto pits so you and your family get a grip on reality.not all pits are as charming as the ones you seem to be in touch with.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

so sue how would you feel living next to person??


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*



> Quote:I have met pitbulls that seemed to be nice dogs'


Then you get that the problem is _not_ the breed, it's the people and the environment. SO... banning the breed isn't going to solve the problem! The people will just use another breed and have all the same issues. The solution lies in tethering ordinances and animal welfare legislation NOT in breed bans.


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## CindyM (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*



> Originally Posted By: harlanr3cindy I have met pitbulls that seemed to be nice dogs' and I hope you get to spend some time with some getto pits so you and your family get a grip on reality.not all pits are as charming as the ones you seem to be in touch with.


I rescue dogs. Although I would say there are a lot of people on this board that have more experiences with dogs, I am certain that I do have a fairly firm grip on dog reality. And, I honestly do feel bad that you have to live with this fear of a certain breed of dog. That was not meant to be an insult in anyway. Anyway, I have a question for you.

This is Sadie. She came to me skin and bones, covered in ticks, one of her eyes so badly damaged that she is now blind in it. She (I believe) is what you would refer to as a ghetto pit, because of where she was from. She is so sweet. She crawled in my lap and shook the first day. She let me take every tick off of her. She loves all children, all people, and now was adopted to a great family that loves her back. So, why do you want to kill her?


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## CindyM (Mar 20, 2007)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

BTW some BSL legislation is literally forcing families to give up their loving family pets to be KILLED because some people are afraid. That is so sad.

Just one more thing... If you decide to terminate all pits and rotties, which dog breed do you think the ghetto people (that you referred to) will use next? It is not going to end until we, as good responsible dog owners, work together to make sure the bad guys don't get any dogs, no matter what breed they are.

(oops, pupresq - i see you just said the same thing - I agree!)

I love the idea mentioned at the beginning of this thread that people should have to pass a test to have a dog.


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## kcox82 (Nov 5, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

And why are we calling them "ghetto pits" is this a new breed you speak of? 

Rediculous to label the dog like this because I am sure when given the option of where they went this is what they requested.

I agree with the testing, and maybe even a probation period... I've seen to many people own dogs that shouldn't.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

PUP it is both. people make the breed act much worse than it should be but the breed it self is very very POWERFUL both mentally and physically which in turn makes it dangerous.

Cindy with out going back and read all my posts I do not think I said that all pits should be killed 

and I do not ever remember seeing a LOT people with rotts dobies or GDS just parading around thinking that they are some kinda bad ass

so I see we agree that there should be some kind of test or permit or something.the problem is that the people that give the pit a bad name is the same people that would not follow the rules


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Cindy please do not feel bad I do not live in fear anymore.and I do not run and hide every time I see one.but I sure don't run over and give them a kiss.I just treat them like a loaded gun. If I saw you walking down the street with a pit I probably would not give it much though unless I was walking my dog.that said if I saw 15 year old kid with his pants down around his ankles hat backwards ad a logging chain around the dogs neck I would have some not so positive thoughts.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

kcox let me ask this why do we define gsd's as high line or working, American show,west german, DDR, there all GSD's


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*



> QuoteUP it is both. people make the breed act much worse than it should be but the breed it self is very very POWERFUL both mentally and physically which in turn makes it dangerous.


I totally agree with you here. And it's a lot easier to mess up certain breeds and turn them dangerous than others. For example - it's not hard to abuse a GSD to the point that they become dangerous. A Golden, you'd have a harder time, and a Chihuahua isn't going to be able to do much damage no matter how mean it is. But the problem is that the potential for danger is not limited to Pit Bulls. In fact, I'd say there are many breeds which are far easier to screw up - GSDs among them. And we, as GSD lovers, cannot affort to support legislation that encourages the banning of a breed just because it is large and powerful, no matter what our personal feelings about Pit Bulls. 



> Quote: going back and read all my posts I do not think I said that all pits should be killed


But that's what BSL does! There are millions of Pit Bulls out there leading blameless lives as exemplary family members. BSL demands that their owners get rid of them. And where are they going to go? There is NO adoption market for PBs even if a person tried their hardest to find a home in another area. Those dogs are going to die. It also means that any Pit Bull unlucky enough to find itself in an animal shelter will die there because they are no longer allowed to be adopted out. When you support BSL you are saying that it is okay for all the Pits in that area to be killed, regardless of their bite history or previous behavior. 



> Quote: I do not ever remember seeing a LOT people with rotts dobies or GDS just parading around thinking that they are some kinda bad ass


They were out there. I used to have a Rottie myself and noticed them. But I'll admit that Pit Bulls are more common and more numerous these days than those breeds were in the past. The main reason for this is the dog fighting culture. If you want fewer dangerous Pit Bulls around, the legislation you want to push for is the stuff that deals with that. For example, pushing to make even attending a dog fight a felony, because it's notoriously hard to prove that any given person was actually participating. There ARE things that can be done to reduce the danger from dogs, but BSL is not the way to go about it.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*



> Originally Posted By: DrDoomAnd if you ban a breed you may not have news stories like this one either.
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29472661/


if you can't read between the lines on this you should not have a pitbull


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

but for me fighting is a whole diffrent issue . and like one of the pro pit people pointed out there are people in the pit with the people.and for the most part I don't fighting dogs are the ones hurting people


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Historically that would be very true and is the reason that Pits, even game bred Pits are actually inherantly far less aggressive towards people than any of your more guarding-oriented dogs (like GSDs). However, it is absolutely the case that the recent rise of the dog fighting subculture (which is also tied to the gang and drug subculture) that has created the problem we have with Pit Bulls today. It has created the market and demand for these dogs in thug culture as well as given them their cultural significance. It is also the only reason that Pits are experiencing a slightly different trajectory than the previous "tough guy" breeds like Dobies and Rotties because inherently, as I say, they are actually LESS agressive towards people than either of those breeds.


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

are they less aggressive toward people??on paper that sounds good.just not sure if it is reality.again I have to go back to the breeding practices of this breed


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Harlanr3, 

"so sue how would you feel living next to person??"

I can read this two ways so I will answer both, living next to the furrier I would not like, especially as his animals had gotten loose before. However, I would not like to live next to a pig farm either. Because I cannot buy all the property in my immediate vacinity, I am out of luck. I think they had some legislation going through to better regulate how exotic animals are kept. But that they ARE kept is simply a fact. 

Living next to a person with a pit bull, they are so popular right now that they it is hard to find a place where they are not banned that they do not live close to someone. My parents have one living next door to them. I had one living next door to me. Two very different kinds of owners. Still, the one next to my parents did get loose one day along with their overweight pug. Both got themselves tangled in Cujo's chain. Mom had to go out and rescue. Immediately, she let Cujo in. Then she went to work on the pitt, realizing she would have to remove the collar to get it free, she did so. when it was free she was able to put the collar/lead back on it. The pitt was good. The pug kept trying to bite her and she wasn't able to replace its collar. My mother had never met either dog previously. 

The one living next to me was left loose, it attacked their other dogs, their **** hound that they thought was worth money so they chained, their husky bitch and the lab pup they replaced her with when she kept having litter after litter of mutt puppies. And it kept trying to attack my dogs as I put them in my car. After years of calling the sherriff and the dog warden and venting here, the woman finally went bankrupt and had to move away. Thankfully, she took her dogs with her. While it was a pain, I did not want them to pass legilation. Why? Because there WAS legislation in effect called a leash law. In Ohio, you are not allowed to let your dog run free. But no one bothered to enforce that complaint after complaint. 

If I lived next to a dog that was specifically kept to guard its owner's drugs, I dunno, it would depend on whether the dog was kept on their property. I wouldn't want a drug dealer living next to me more than the dog. I wouldn't want dog fighters living next to me either. I guess I figure that the dogs are really the victims in any case.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*



> Quote: are they less aggressive toward people??


_Inherently_ less aggressive towards people. Meaning, genetically, it is more difficult to get them to become aggressive towards people than many other breeds - particularly those created to have guarding instincts, which Pit Bulls for the most part were not. So, if I take a GSD and I take a Pit, it is going to be FAR easier for me to make the GSD into a dog that will bite you if you come to my house than the Pit. It's going to be easier to make the Pit aggressive to other dogs though, because that _is_ what they were bred for. 

Now, statistically less dangerous is another matter. There are so many pits and so many of them are in bad situations - in particular tethered (which is a major risk factor dog injuries) that Pits are likely to be disproportionately represented in aggressive dog reports. 

So, one has to do with the dog, and one has to do with the situation. BSL only deals with the dog. Anti-tethering and anti dog fighting legislation addresses the situations.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*



> Originally Posted By: harlanr3one more thing about the golden. I do not believe that there have been an ATTACK by a golden.has a kid ever been bitten yes but probably for doing something he shouldn't have. and there are10X the amount of them.they had the same problem with dalmatians after the movie.and again the bite from a golden is not the same as a PB. just like the bite from a gsd bite is not the same as a Jack russell.


Oops, we'll have to ban Rotts: 

Pet Rottweiler Kills Toddler in Glendale (LA Times) http://articles.latimes.com/2005/aug/04/local/me-rottweiler4

No charges brought over baby mauled to death by dog
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/14/davidbatty

BOY UNDERGOES 6 HOURS OF SURGERY
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/archives/1999/9904140026.asp

Mom stopped the Rott attack, but another child was killed by Siberian Huskies. We'll have to ban them too: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19910518&slug=1283798

Another Boy Bitten By Dog At Same Park
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19910518&slug=1283798


And this is my favorite story (although it's terribly sad). We got the *Pack of Pit Bulls Maul Toddler! News at Eleven! *News story all over the news. 

Pit Bulls. Terrible killers. Then Animal Control spoke to the owner and rounded up the dogs. Please pay attention: 



> Quote:
> Toddler mauled by at least 5 dogs
> 
> At least five dogs mauled a 18-month-old boy in Onalaska, Lewis County, Tuesday, leaving him with life-threatening injuries.
> ...


Rotts, huskies, heelers, an Aussie (wow, such aggressive animals!) and the infamous Labrador retriever. 

Before we're done, we'll ban dogs right out of existence. 

Sure, keep watching the t.v. news. Keep reading the headlines. Keep being misled. This was a tiny follow-up blurb on about page 6 the next day. You know, the truth. If it bleeds, it leads. If it's sensational, it sells more papers. 

Here's a perfect example -- the police didn't say what breed dog it was, but the newspaper posted a photo of a pitt bull type dog IN A MUZZLE no less! Note the banned breeds in that region. So breed bans don't really work, do they? 

http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/b/sunrise/21181/dog-mauls-nsw-girl-to-death/

Aussies attack. Labs attack. Huskies attack. Rotts attack. GSDs attack. 

and your loving gentle Golden? Yeah, him too. http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2007/3/14/2805154.html

Finally, from our friends in New South Wales (the ones with the breed bans):



> Quote:
> 
> Dog attacks by the numbers
> 
> ...


http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/b/sunrise/21181/dog-mauls-nsw-girl-to-death/


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

^ Which is why we must fight these breed bans tooth and nail. I will not live without a dog!


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

In a RSPCA test case, a highly trained golden retriever still bit a three year old after the toddler put a stick up its nose and the dog reacted.
suff like this is a joke.anyone here got bit on the hand playing ball with there Gsd DUH.well gang it been fun but I think I said all I have to say.and may all your pits eat kibble & bits lol back to the food dog fourms to talk about cheap dog food. even pits should not have to eat some of the crap they sell us.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

It's not a joke. A lot of the bite cases reported involved severe provocation of the dog. They're still bites and recorded as such. If you researched the bites attributed to Pits you would find that 1. many of them actually involved a different breed of dog and 2. there were very often extenuating or circumstantial factors that played a major role in the bite that had nothing to do with breed. 

Anyone that loves dogs should get educated about BSL and fight it whenever it rears its head.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Is there anything else that can be done aside from writing to Senators and the like?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*

Yes. Start with your local news media. Demand that they report accurately and fairly. I've written to mine about how large dogs (and especially bully breeds) are unfairly singled out for news stories. 

Let's look at this again:



> Quote:
> 80% of attacks happen in family home or at the home of a family friend
> 
> Kids are more likely to bitten by their own dog or one that's known to them


Roving packs of pit bulls just aren't causing the vast majority of dog bites. We need to keep educating. Over and over and over again. For every person who screams about pit bulls and how dangerous they are, there has to be 10 of us who calmly says, "no, they aren't any more dangerous than any other breed."

A local pet sitter in my neighborhood was attacked just outside my house with the great Dane she was walking by two malamutes. I knew the dogs because they were chained in their back yard most days, or they tried to fence-fight with any dog walking down the street, through a solid wood fence. 

I talked to the malamute owner the day of the fight. She CLEARLY was in over her head with those dogs. Nice enough lady. But way in over her head. All dogs can be dangerous. 

And it helps when it's not just bully breed owners saying it. The more we can say "enforce the laws we have. If you see dogs running loose, call Animal Control. Animal Control needs FUNDING." (Write to your city, county and state about that).

And Dog BITE laws need to be enforceable. Write to your legislature and mayor and governor about that as well. 

Dogs at large should be rounded up. Bad owners should be dealt with. Dogs that have a history of bites need to be dealt with as well. 

When we just decry BSL, we seem a little out of touch, I think. But if we acknowledge that there is a problem with dog bites (due to people working long hours and having over-planned family lives, unsocialized dogs, planned communities that don't allow adequate fencing, of course, bad breeding -- puppy mill dogs for example -- can play a role, etc), and THAT needs to be fixed, then I think we have some credibility.


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## kcox82 (Nov 5, 2008)

*Re: Response from Senator Starr 02/02/09*



> Originally Posted By: harlanr3kcox let me ask this why do we define gsd's as high line or working, American show,west german, DDR, there all GSD's


That is quite a different and unfair comparison.


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