# Stud Service?



## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

Morning  

I have a question (non-gsd) related. Schatzi's little brother Cudi is an Alaskan Malamute. I got him off a reputable breeder. We keep in touch and last night she sent me an email asking if I would be interested in providing Cudi for Stud Services once he is old enough. She told me Cudi is by far the best dog produced by any of her litters. My plan was to neuter him at 6 months. She is willing to pay me $500 per service. She would like to use him 1-2 times a year. She lives about 3 hrs from me, therfore I would either have to make multiple trips while the female is in heat or I would have to leave him for a couple of days. I trust her because she takes perfect care of her dogs. But, when it comes to things of this nature I have no clue. 

My question to you guys would be, what are the pros and cons?


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I think it's kind of odd, simply because he is so young and has not yet done anything to prove him truly breedworthy. 
But I have no idea either so that's all I can really say. 

Also--- He is gorgeous!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The con would be the potential for infection (would she guarantee a brucellosis check), injury by one of her females, and he would be more keyed into looking for the ladies on his own.

Would she also pay for the x-rays and ofa certification and other possible health screenings that a reputable breeder would demand?


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> The con would be the potential for infection (would she guarantee a brucellosis check), injury by one of her females, and he would be more keyed into looking for the ladies on his own.
> 
> Would she also pay for the x-rays and ofa certification and other possible health screenings that a reputable breeder would demand?


 
She did guarantee a brucellosis check, however she made no mention of x-rays and ofa certification.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Isn't the female supposed to visit the male for stud service? That will help prevent the male from roaming, but of course he is a Malamute. The red flag( to me) is that she wants to use him 1 or 2 times a year. That is quite a lot for a male that has not proven himself. Personally I would go ahead and stick to your own plans or keep him intact and show him first. If he wins, X ray hips and elbows. Then you can ask way more for a stud fee. Otherwise you'll be just adding to the pet over population. Just visit CL and a few shelters. There are way too many dogs whose owners thought they were worth breeding for.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If you respect her breeding program and her dogs, which based on your comments Im assuming you do. You should probably ask her your questions instead of folks on the net you dont know from Adam. Think about it this way you like the dog you got from her, you like her dogs and her kennel. Go with what you know over what you hear on the forums lol.


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If you respect her breeding program and her dogs, which based on your comments Im assuming you do. You should probably ask her your questions instead of folks on the net you dont know from Adam. Think about it this way you like the dog you got from her, you like her dogs and her kennel. Go with what you know over what you hear on the forums lol.


 
The reason I asked here is to get other people's perspectives. We have tons of EXPERIENCED dog owners here and I respect their opinion.


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Isn't the female supposed to visit the male for stud service? That will help prevent the male from roaming, but of course he is a Malamute. The red flag( to me) is that she wants to use him 1 or 2 times a year. That is quite a lot for a male that has not proven himself. Personally I would go ahead and stick to your own plans or keep him intact and show him first. If he wins, X ray hips and elbows. Then you can ask way more for a stud fee. Otherwise you'll be just adding to the pet over population. Just visit CL and a few shelters. There are way too many dogs whose owners thought they were worth breeding for.


 
Well she told me that the male should come to the female so she can feel more relaxed. Thanks


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The females owner normally goes to the male....the male should have breed specific health clearances at the VERY LEAST if she is a reputable breeder. It is purely for her convenience that you would be taking or leaving your male with her for the breeding....and yes, that would be very convenient for her!!! If you don't have a problem with it, I don't see that it is a big deal - but just realize that this is for HER convenience and if he was breed worthy and others wanted to use him, you don't just leave your dog with whoever has a female in heat!

For a male with no health clearances, no show record or titles, $500 is a very generous stud fee IMO....

Lee


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What makes a Malamute breed worthy? What kind of health testing do they do? What kind of working or show titles are they supposed to have? What kind of things do/should be automatic disqualifications for breeding? 

I don't know - just wondering what they would look for.

Oh - how old is he - just read the second post...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'd question why the breeder wants to use one of her own puppies as a stud. In theory she should already have everything he could bring genetically to the pool in her lines. He won't be proven, no show accomplishments to rate him against others in his breed, and no health certs. She then wants to use him twice a year? Very rarely does a good breeder breed to the same dog that often, and only after they have seen what that dog has produced in the past.

Don't take this the wrong way...but what makes you think that she's a reputable Malamute breeder?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Who is the breeder?

Unless you've shown or worked this dog, I don't know how she can say he's worth breeding. Honestly. Any dog can look pretty. What health tests has he had done? How old is he anyway?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

If she is a reputable breeder and does everything right, you're not inconvenienced by this, and the dog is breedworthy... I don't see why not.


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I'd question why the breeder wants to use one of her own puppies as a stud. In theory she should already have everything he could bring genetically to the pool in her lines. He won't be proven, no show accomplishments to rate him against others in his breed, and no health certs. She then wants to use him twice a year? Very rarely does a good breeder breed to the same dog that often, and only after they have seen what that dog has produced in the past.
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way...but what makes you think that she's a reputable Malamute breeder?


 
I see what you are saying, and trust me I don't take it the wrong way. That's why I asked for your opinions  

Well, to me the reason why I considered her a reputable breeder is because 
a good breeder to me is the one who breed the healthiers puppies possible. 
They screen homes carefully, tell you both the pros and cons about owning that type of breed. They provide support for owners and should a home not workout, either they help find a pup a new home or take it back. She made sure of all that in our contract agreement. I compare her to the lady I got my GSD from and the experience was completly different. Schatzi my GSD came from a backyard breeder. At that point I had no knowledge about the differences. However, now understand and thanks to you guys I have gained tons of knowledge when it comes to not just owning a dog, but dealing with breeder and picking one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> The con would be the potential for infection (would she guarantee a brucellosis check), injury by one of her females, and he would be more keyed into looking for the ladies on his own.
> 
> Would she also pay for the x-rays and ofa certification and other possible health screenings that a reputable breeder would demand?


This. The cons - listed above. Are the parents OFA certified? If not, she's not as "reputable" as you're thinking.

Pros? Money. That's about it. And is the money worth having a dog that's walking around looking for breeding prospects? Many dogs left intact and used in this manner are more prone to behavior issues such as marking, and what's listed above, not fun for the average pet owner.

If you are an average pet owner (most of us probably are, not a bad thing!), get him neutered as planned.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm really, really confused. You posted pics of him near Dec, he looks about 3-4 months old. There is no way she can say she wants him as a stud dog this early! That is not reputable IMO. And I wouldn't do it, if you want to breed him, prove his worth, health and conformation, and a couple years down the road, use a bitch from a reputable kennel. 

This isn't even a rarer breed of a dog, you can find them in most animal shelters, I could almost understand if this was a Kangal in the USA or something, but Mals are common dogs and so there is no reason to skimp on breeding right.


*I'm not trying to be rude, but I really don't think your breeder is as good as she portrays, and there is no need for more dogs running around breeding.


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> The females owner normally goes to the male....the male should have breed specific health clearances at the VERY LEAST if she is a reputable breeder. It is purely for her convenience that you would be taking or leaving your male with her for the breeding....and yes, that would be very convenient for her!!! If you don't have a problem with it, I don't see that it is a big deal - but just realize that this is for HER convenience and if he was breed worthy and others wanted to use him, you don't just leave your dog with whoever has a female in heat!
> 
> For a male with no health clearances, no show record or titles, $500 is a very generous stud fee IMO....
> 
> Lee


 
Well it is for her convinience, even if he was breed worthy I cannot breed him with any other person other than the breeder because I don't have breeding rights according to our agreement.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If I were to pretend that my dog was breedworthy and I had a reputable breeder whom I trusted, I would much rather send my male to the breeder. They would be the expert on the subject. 

I wouldn't send my male to a client of the breeder or someone I didn't know. 

Just IMO - If I were to spread my dog's genes around, I'd want to make sure that the offspring would be notable for the breed. I'd have to trust that the breeder knew what they were doing in pairing the two. I wouldn't want my dog's name forever attached to poop.


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> This. The cons - listed above. Are the parents OFA certified? If not, she's not as "reputable" as you're thinking.
> 
> Pros? Money. That's about it. And is the money worth having a dog that's walking around looking for breeding prospects? Many dogs left intact and used in this manner are more prone to behavior issues such as marking, and what's listed above, not fun for the average pet owner.
> 
> If you are an average pet owner (most of us probably are, not a bad thing!), get him neutered as planned.


 
Thank You  
The parents aren't OFA certified. I learned something new to day. I may have used the word "reputable" a bit loose here. =/ 

Yes I am an average pet owner, and to be honest with you I think I will just stick to my plan of neautering him.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Your puppy isn't even 6 months old and he's the best dog your breeder has ever produced? Why and how did she come up with that conclusion?

And I'm not a Malamute person, but what kind of testing and titling does that breed do prior to breeding? I'd start with that stuff before even considering breeding.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Everything you have answered says this person is just breeding their family pets. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your GSD, but although the Mal breeder might be better and might care a little more, she's still a BYB. She doesn't health certify, I'm guessing she doesn't show, and probably doesn't do any kind of mushing or obedience titling.

The weirdest thing is that she wants her own puppy back into her lines...how many dogs does she have? What dam would she use that isn't related to your current puppy? Being as young as he is, she should still have the dam he came out of. So why would she need your pup?

Here's the funny thing...you said, "a good breeder to me is one who breeds the healthiest puppies possible." Without OFA certification, she doesn't do this. There is no way to know the health of a puppy/dog in the future, but this is one of those tests that at least helps you try to make the best decision based on hips. Sorry to bring this up, but you have a very young dog. You have no idea what kind of issues will come up in the future, you also have no idea how healthy his hips are at the moment since the parents weren't OFA and neither has he.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

lennoxbradley88 said:


> Thank You
> The parents aren't OFA certified. I learned something new to day. I may have used the word "reputable" a bit loose here. =/
> 
> Yes I am an average pet owner, and to be honest with you I think I will just stick to my plan of neautering him.


Sounds like a good and responsible thing to do.

I think what your breeder means is "he's adorable/cute and I can make money on puppies out of him". 
Sad way to learn a life lesson, I'm sorry


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

lennoxbradley88 said:


> Thank You
> The parents aren't OFA certified. I learned something new to day. I may have used the word "reputable" a bit loose here. =/
> 
> Yes I am an average pet owner, and to be honest with you I think I will just stick to my plan of neautering him.


I think you sound like an above average pet owner - I think most people faced with an easy bunch of money for doing not much would do it. Good for you.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think you sound like an above average pet owner - I think most people faced with an easy bunch of money for doing not much would do it. Good for you.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Everything you have answered says this person is just breeding their family pets. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your GSD, but although the Mal breeder might be better and might care a little more, she's still a BYB. She doesn't health certify, I'm guessing she doesn't show, and probably doesn't do any kind of mushing or obedience titling.
> 
> The weirdest thing is that she wants her own puppy back into her lines...how many dogs does she have? What dam would she use that isn't related to your current puppy? Being as young as he is, she should still have the dam he came out of. So why would she need your pup?
> 
> Here's the funny thing...you said, "a good breeder to me is one who breeds the healthiest puppies possible." Without OFA certification, she doesn't do this. There is no way to know the health of a puppy/dog in the future, but this is one of those tests that at least helps you try to make the best decision based on hips. Sorry to bring this up, but you have a very young dog. You have no idea what kind of issues will come up in the future, you also have no idea how healthy his hips are at the moment since the parents weren't OFA and neither has he.


 
Thanks for your input  She has 3 females and 3 males. However, she said she will be retiring one of her males soon. I don't know if that might be a reason she would want Cudi for breeding. But I will just stick to my plan. I plan on neautering him next month and get him to pass the CGC test and hopefully he can become a therapy dog. Probably she was also interested in him because I told him what I planned to do with Cudi. lol


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

lennoxbradley88 said:


> The reason I asked here is to get other people's perspectives. We have tons of EXPERIENCED dog owners here and I respect their opinion.


Owning a dog does not imply that one's opinion is educated. One thing I have learned from forums is for every knowledgable poster there are about 10 which cant see beyond their own preconcieved biases and in actuality very limited experiences. If you ever get out to a K9 Sport club you will find that many of the vets with proven dogs and many years of experience dont bother with forums or the net and laugh when you even bring them up. Forums have value but take it all with a HUGE grain of salt. I am one that strongly respects proven ability over talk. Hence why I suggested that you go with what you know about the breeder over opinions on the net. 
Again not discounting the forums there are some very knowledgable posters on here that dont post enough as far as Im concerned but again its the net not gospel.


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think you sound like an above average pet owner - I think most people faced with an easy bunch of money for doing not much would do it. Good for you.


 
Thanks  I just want to do what is best for my dogs. My dogs mean a lot more than money...


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I guess I would ask the breeder some of the questions that were posed here...maybe she is able to evaluate the dog at this age-I would talk to the breeder before I made any decision-either way


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

And how do you prove a malmute breeder worthy-schutzhund titling certainly isn't a possibility


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

or maybe it is-lol-I will stop now


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm going through this right now (have a male dog a few people want to use) so I'll just tell you my take on it....

My dog is 4 years old. He has OFA hips and elbows and his thyroid and DM tests are going off this week. Oh and I just sent off AKC DNA so we can register AI breedings. Then we also paid for a vet visit to make sure everything was working down there, made sure the dog would allow a vet to collect him, check sperm count, etc. None of this stuff is real cheap. When all is said and done the dog has more paperwork than my house, vehicle, and self combined, lol.

He has conformation titles, his breed survey, SchH title, and several other performance titles. The titles alone do not make him breedworthy but I've had this dog since 7 weeks and have spent countless hours and a countless amount of energy and money training him, working him, traveling with him, testing him in just about every situation I can think of. If I wasn't sure about him being breedworthy I wouldn't do it (or wait until I was sure).

As far as the breedings themselves, the female goes to the stud and because I'm just a normal person with an 8-5 job I don't board the bitch. I can help make arrangements locally by suggesting dog friendly hotels or boarding, but it's the breeder's responsibility to do the traveling. I have one vet that will do AI on the spot for me if they'd prefer that to live breeding and another repro vet that will collect for AI and ship chilled semen. Both are at the breeder's expense and this is above and beyond the stud fee. There are three clinics I could use for shipping chilled semen and unfortunately the most expensive one is the closest but that's my only option if someone needs me to take an hour off work to have a dog collected. The cost is what it is and I let the owner of the bitch make those arrangements with the repro clinic and they will call me in when they need my dog (depends on the heat cycle and progesterone testing).

The stud fee is what it is, there is no negotiating (other than accepting a pick puppy in lieu). I know what I feel my dog is worth and what it is worth to me to go through this trouble getting him ready for breeding and making sure he's available (and believe me he'd probably have to sire 300 litters before I'd even break even with stud fees covering the expense I have put into my dog!). I don't "discount" for a friend or the breeder of the dog or anything like that. It's a fair fee and my contract will always be the same.

Between every live breeding the dog will be tested for brucellosis, at my expense. I also require that for any live breeding, the bitch tests negative for brucellosis within 10 days of the breeding. There are some other requirements as far as age, health test, etc in the stud contract (and I will follow up on them before breeding to make sure everything checks out) but I absolutely won't mess around with brucellosis even if it is rare.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Liesje - out of curiosity...if a bitch owner agreed to all of your terms, but you felt for certain that it would not be a good cross...how would you respectfully decline?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would just say sorry, I don't think it's a good idea. If I have reservations, I say what they are and feel out the rest. Some people know their dog's side of the pedigree way more than I do. Ultimately, they are the ones placing puppies and possibly taking them back if something goes wrong. I haven't had any problems so far though this is a brand new thing for me and I have a lot of good help (this isn't something I agreed to and am cooking up stud contracts on my own,I have my mentors even though I have the easy side of the breeding.). Well, I've had a few wackos e-mail me but that's happened since Nikon was born. Those I just ignore/delete completely.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think you sound like an above average pet owner - I think most people faced with an easy bunch of money for doing not much would do it. Good for you.


Well, yeah, I guess my definition of "average pet owner" is, we got our pets to be pets, not to breed them or have them studded out!

I'd still say "average pet owner", but "_responsible _average pet owner"


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

For what it is worth, no breeder can restrict "breeding" rights. If the dog is sold to you on a full AKC registration, they can not restrict your rights to breed the dog. This is what the limited AKC registration is for. The breeder can, however, have a separate contract between the two of you and can try to hold you to the terms in court, should it progress to that level. 

I had a breeder try to do this to me in the past. She agreed to sell me a female dog, but told me that I had no breeding rights. I walked away and refused to even entertain such a proposal. Since we both were involved in AKC conformation, the dog had to be sold to me on a full AKC registration in order for the dog to be shown. She could not then "restrict" breeding rights according to the AKC. It has to be either a full registration or a limited (non-breeding) registration. I got a different dog from another breeder.


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