# How to deal with aggression and when to let go



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here you go Andy. Your own words were just fine. 



Hunter Jack said:


> As a general topic about what do we do with dogs who have issues, (medical temperament, aggression) etc...maybe we could all learn something. The thread is very informative but the subject has gone beyond the OP's dog.
> 
> A lot of people can't take care of aggressive dogs so what do they do with them?
> 
> ...


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

What are you saying here?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'll start...


I live with two boxers. One is people aggressive and the other is dog aggressive. For Banshee, kids were fine. She loves kids. If she knew you before her littermate died, then you were fine. Anyone after was fair game. The mailman will not come to our door because she charges the door with her hackles raised behaving like Cujo. 

Nobody..and I mean *NOBODY *is allowed in our house unless we have her contained. Even outside family are not allowed in the house until the dog is contained. The only people that can come thru that door is me, DH, DD, DS and DS's best friend who as far as Banshee is concerned is one of us. And he shocked the **** out of me when he came through the door one day and she didn't make a peep. When people are inside, we do not let her approach the people. The people can toss her treats from across the room but they are not allowed within touching distance. Even though she never bothered a kid, she was still not allowed free rein around them.

This is management...pure and simple...and it is tiring. You have to be on your game 100% every second. Would we do it again? Absolutely. But we also were very diligent about her aggression. If you are to take your dog out on a leash, then you need to identify him as a dog not to be approached somehow. You need to be watching every second for a child who might decide petting him is the best thing in the world to do at that moment. Otherwise, put up a 6' fence around your yard, clearly marked and let him get his exercise that way. But the word CONTAINMENT is the key word here.

ON the topic of dog to dog aggression, it's very simple. You do not bring more dogs into your household. I read stories of dogs being surrendered or euthanized because they are dog aggressive towards the "new" dogs. My opinion is last in, first out and any outcome that involves euthanizing the dog that was there first for dog aggression is 100% the owners fault. Sierra is truly dog aggressive towards strange dogs. For the most part, she is fine with Banshee and Jax. She's been with Banshee since she was a baby so there is a strong bond there. We got Jax when she was a baby so Sierra was here as she was growing up. Those two do have their issues and are not left alone together. For the most part, Sierra will start the fight over who knows what.

As far as bringing her around strange dogs, again the key words are management and containment. She never makes a sound before she strikes. There is no warning other than the tenseness of her body. We can't control other people or loose dogs but we can protect our dogs. I don't take her places where there will be loose dogs. We can go to the local pet store, no loose dogs. In our yard, go for rides. You find things your dog can enjoy that will limit the exposure they have to what can get them into big trouble.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks Jax08.

I'll start with my own situation from the other thread
The rescue dog that we got some years ago turned out to have major aggression issues and bit a friend of my son's within the first week we had him

We wound up keeping him and spent a lot of time and money to no avail.
Once we had kept the dog for awhile and the behaviorists didn't work out. I realized that in my mind there were two options PTS or try to lie to someone and push the problem down the road.

Well I couldn't do the lying so we kept him. It was miserable with worry and probably not to great for him.

The part I did'nt reveal in the other thread is that someone did leave the gate open and he got out. We don't know what happened to him. I then worried about that. Did he get hit? Did he bite someone? We checked the shelters etc.. but do not know what happened to him.

So what are the ideas about what should be done in these cases.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

As far as my opinion on when you let go...

It is wrong to rehome an aggressive dog unless it's to a trainer that can handle the dog. You can NOT pass your problems off on another unsuspecting person. It's wrong to surrender the dog to a shelter. Your dog will never make it to a cage with a bite history. He will die frantic and confused in a back room with strangers. It's far kinder to take him to a vet and make his last moments calm, surrounded by people that love him.

When to let go? I guess that is up to the individual, living arrangements and ability to contain the dog. If one of our dogs bit someone with the intent of doing serious damage then yes, I would euthanize her. There is a line where we no longer have control and containment is not an option. There is a time when the kindest thing we can do for our dogs, that we have chosen to care for, is to release them from their demons and anxiety.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

When your dog has bitten multiple innocent people with the intent to do serious damage/harm, then it is time to let them go for the safety of others.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Andy, there was always a fear of Banshee dashing out the door in front of us. When we opened the door, we always had her collar. We don't have a fenced yard so the dogs are let out to do their business on a tie out. Jax is the only dog that is allowed out without being on a lead/long line but she has an e-collar on and I am always with her.

I'm sorry that happened to you. Not knowing what happened is often the worse part of a situation.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> When your dog has bitten multiple innocent people with the intent to do serious damage/harm, then it is time to let them go for the safety of others.


If the people are innocent then one bite is it for me.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

A human being can not go over to their neighbors and get to beat them up several times before anything is done about it. A dog is our responsibility and should never get several bites.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

For me it depends ENTIRELY on the situation surrounding the bite and the seriousness of the bite. My mother got bit on the bottom lip by my late great aunts chi mix. My mom had her face in the dog's face at the time. It was my mom's fault and I told her that. She required 3 stitches. My cousin (an adult) got bit same spot by the same dog doing the EXACT same thing 3 weeks later. Even after my aunt told her NOT to stick her face in the dog's face, my cousin did it, got bit and got stitches. 

I would not advocate putting that dog to sleep. Both my mom and my cousin were wrong. They should not have violated the dog's personal space- esp my stupid cousin who already knew that my mother had been bit.

Despite what people think, not all dog bites are created equal. And it is not always a black/white situation.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

DharmasMom.

I agree with what you said but we are talking about unprovoked dog aggression.

Anyone stupid enough to taunt, tease or challenge a GS or any dog probably should be bitten.

Unfortunately we will probably still be held accountable legally


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Debbi - I don't believe Andy was talking about a provoked bite. Nobody said "all dog bites are created equal" in this thread or the other one.

As a discussion on aggression...unprovoked, genetic aggression...when is it time to let the dog go? How do people with aggressive dogs manage them?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I adopted my GSD from the shelter when she was two. She was an owner surrender. The paperwork filled out on her said she was OK with kids and dogs. The kids part was true - thank God. The dog part was either an outright lie, or the previous owner was clueless and never had her around other dogs. It became obvious pretty quickly that my new dog was dog aggressive.

There were a number of things that threw a wrench into my efforts to work on the dog aggression issues. One crazy neighbor kept adding dogs to her pack. She was up to 6 dogs, by the time she moved. They drove my dog crazy. There was also the stupid friend that showed up at my house with her dog in tow. My dog became so stressed that she developed mange. It cost me hundreds of dollars to treat her. 

The dog aggression wasn't a big issue to me. I didn't have any other dogs. Going to the vet, or for a walk required a muzzle and a prong collar. We have a large fenced back yard and my dog got plenty of exercise. She is now 13 years old and apparently doesn't remember that she hates other dogs. "Annie" even has some doggie friends now. I have managed the dog aggression for the past 11 years. It has not been that difficult and in all these years she has NEVER hurt another dog.

People aggression? Well, people aggression is a totally different story. I would not undertake a people aggressive dog. As I posted on the other thread, I had unknowingly brought home a people aggressive Springer Spaniel. She only lasted a few hours in my home. I will not own a dog I do not trust. I don't know why the dog was aggressive. Don't know about her previous life. Didn't run tests, or call a behaviorist. Wasn't about to take a risk with my kids. My cousin, who had no kids at home, took the spaniel. That dog bit him numerous times. He still loved that dog and kept her until she died. The dog is lucky I didn't punt her out the window when she nipped and growled at my kids. 

If a dog I already owned became people aggressive and started biting people, I would put it down. I would think there must be something seriously wrong with the dog to have that kind of change in behavior. As much as I love my dog, people come first. I have a responsibility to protect others. How often do we hear of dogs attacking their owners, attacking people, killing children? Just look at Lauren's thread about her little cousin. 

Each individual has to decide for himself, what type of aggression, if any, he can and is willing to handle. I think the people here who are managing dogs with aggression have been quite clear on what is involved and the diligence that is required. You cannot make a mistake in managing this type of dog. For me, it is too big of a liability.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Growing up on the farm we always had dogs. When I was a baby, less than a year old, one of our male dogs bit me on the face. His upper jaw was less than inch away from my eye and his lower jaw was in my mouth. Obviously I don't know how severe the bite was, but now, almost 24 years later, I still have a scar under my eye. My dad was not willing to have a dog that would bite one of his kids and the dog was put down. Since I don't remember it, it hasn't given me a fear of dogs, but I definitely think that people people, have to come first. I consider my dog to be part of my family and don't know what I would do if I had dog that was people aggressive, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Debbi - I don't believe Andy was talking about a provoked bite. Nobody said "all dog bites are created equal" in this thread or the other one.
> 
> As a discussion on aggression...unprovoked, genetic aggression...when is it time to let the dog go? How do people with aggressive dogs manage them?



That's nice. My mom considered her bite "unprovoked". The dog was sitting on her lap and she was petting it. She put her face too close and the dog bit her. She was not teasing, taunting or challenging. But that is my point exactly. It is all in how it is viewed by the people involved. The majority of bites are NOT a dog chasing down a kid from across the road and attacking him. Most of them occur when an interaction with the dog occurs so what we may see as being "unprovoked", the dog doesn't see that way. That is way evaluation by a trained behaviorist is so important. 

Yes, if your dog chases down children or suddenly attacks you or your spouse while you are watching TV then it probably needs to be put down. But odds are if there is activity going on in a home, the dog may have felt it was provoked- even if we did not see it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Debbi.

I agree with you on a lot of things but not this one. 

When you talked about your mom and cousin being bitten by being in the dogs face, maybe I don't understand what that means. 

We take care of the animals not the other way round. I'm in charge not my dog and if I get my face in his he will not bite me. 

If biting is o.k. with you then you are siding with the dog over your mother and cousin. Or in other words the dog is allowed to set the standards of what is and isn't acceptable to him.

I guess the dog is in charge.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I never said biting was okay. The point I am trying to make is in many cases what we see has "unprovoked", the dog may not see has "unprovoked". Many times there are a reason behind a bite, even if we don't see it OR agree with it. 

I do not agree with sending a dog to its death based on one bite though. Not without an evaluation and full medical work up. That doesn't mean that the dog is in charge. It just means I believe in giving them a chance before arbitrarily killing them. Sorry.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

When is it time to let them go ??? When you don't know what to do, have run out of options, and aren't sure it can happen again....Bye Bye. All animals donot fit with all people or situations...so the greater good of safety for all, supersedes the dog's right to stay. JMO


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

JAXO8; you have a dog that's aggressive towards people
but the dog is loose when people are in your house.
you have a dog that's dog aggressive that you take
to pet stores. ummmm.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

doggiedad, are you saying that a HA and DA dogs cannot live in the outside world? I do not think that is fair statement. 

With proper handling there is no problem bringing a DA dog to the pet store. There is no problem having a child that the dog views as her own pack be in the house while free. I believe earlier in Jax's post she said that if anyone else enters the house the dog is put up first.

Because a dog has issues, does not mean that it rots in the backyard. It means a super vigilant owner. It means training. It maybe means muzzling. But I see no wrong in Jax's post.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

*Shenzi*

Shenzi is a dog that I saw free on kijiji. The first time I met her, within 5 seconds she had grabbed me. No punture, but a bruise would soon follow. I knew after her mouth hit my arm she was going home with me-these people couldn't handle her.

For a month, we fought. I hated her. I loved her. I couldnt STAND her. And, soon after I'd cuddle with her on the floor. 
She hated me. She loved me. She couldn't STAND me. Soon after, she'd lie her head in my lap. We fought and fought and it was really, a nightmare. She lunged and snapped and was scared of EVERYTHING. She wouldn't work with me. She learned quick enough, but wanted no business in working with me.

Then, we started to click. We stopped fighting. She started to want to work with me. We trained. We grew as partners. She continued to be reactive. I continued to show her it wasn't acceptable. I showed her to concentrate on me instead of the scary people. Yummy things started happening when scary people approached out of thin air. She got better.

Friends come over. She is onleash for introductions, because unless it is my BF's best friend, you would think the world is ending. Last week we tried to have the introduction with him off leash, and for a first attempt it went well. I have only had to put her up because of one person. She would not accept him, and I could not take the tether off. So to the crate she went for the rest of the night, until it was time for a walk. So me and a girlfriend took her out to a enclosed space for a run. 

I take her to the dog park where me and my boyfriend play with her in the 'small dog' section, where no dogs are ever there. I take her to petsmart. She behaves perfectly.

One of the big mistakes I've made was not protecting her enough from an offleash dog. The dog ended up bitten on the side. Took him and the owner to the vet, paid 80% of the bill. Lesson learned. That person still walks her dog offleash, who I have heard is not the first time has caused trouble. Shenzi had a few onleash dog buddies until this happened...no more. All because some jackass had to walk her aggressive mutt offleash.

Today, a little over a year after I got her at two years old, a wild dog that didn't know 'sit' she is a wonderful companion. She is no longer reactive in most instances. Sometimes, you see a flickering of her old self. She is trained to do many things beyond 'sit' and 'stay'. She learns quickly. We play on a longline. She is my best doggie friend. And, for someone who admittedly hated shepherds, and was not fond of females, she has completely turned me. She is not my last shepherd, or my last female. She will live the rest of her life with me. Issues or not.

Thanks for reading my book.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

:thumbup:



DharmasMom said:


> Despite what people think, not all dog bites are created equal. And it is not always a black/white situation.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Deathmetal said:


> Shenzi is a dog that I saw free on kijiji. The first time I met her, within 5 seconds she had grabbed me. No punture, but a bruise would soon follow. I knew after her mouth hit my arm she was going home with me-these people couldn't handle her.
> 
> For a month, we fought. I hated her. I loved her. I couldnt STAND her. And, soon after I'd cuddle with her on the floor.
> She hated me. She loved me. She couldn't STAND me. Soon after, she'd lie her head in my lap. We fought and fought and it was really, a nightmare. She lunged and snapped and was scared of EVERYTHING. She wouldn't work with me. She learned quick enough, but wanted no business in working with me.
> ...



Awesome story!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> JAXO8; you have a dog that's aggressive towards people
> but the dog is loose when people are in your house.
> you have a dog that's dog aggressive that you take
> to pet stores. ummmm.


doggiedad...do ever pay attention to what is actually said or just read part of it and run with that.

My dog who is aggressive towards people is aggressive towards STRANGERS. Get that? Strangers = people she's never met. If a person that she doesn't know comes in the house then she is CONTAINED. Got that one?

here...let me make it simple. I plainly stated it and will do so again for you.



> Nobody..and I mean *NOBODY *is allowed in our house unless we have her contained.


Ok...next...Sierra is on a leash and kept away from other dogs. It is ONE store that I KNOW has no off leash dogs and no HIGH traffic. Got that one too?

Did you read the last part of what I said? I think it might have been the very last sentence...



> I don't take her places where there will be loose dogs. We can go to the local pet store, no loose dogs. In our yard, go for rides. *You find things your dog can enjoy that will limit the exposure they have to what can get them into big trouble.*


Not sure how much simpler I can make that.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i thought i paid attention most of the time. i didn't do so
good on this one and yes i ran with it and very fast.
sorry, now stop yelling at me. you know how sensitive i am.



Jax08 said:


> doggiedad...do ever pay attention to what is actually said or just read part of it and run with that.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Jax08 - Thanks for starting this thread. I've been thinking about this since I read the thread that prompted it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> When is it time to let them go ??? When you don't know what to do, have run out of options, and aren't sure it can happen again....Bye Bye. All animals donot fit with all people or situations...so the greater good of safety for all, supersedes the dog's right to stay. JMO


Might not have put it exactly this way but basically agree.

I'm noticing a pattern that some individuals feel that dogs have at least as much right to exist as humans unless their behavior is way out of bounds.

I feel for dogs because humans control their genetics, training or lack of and some times they just wind up messed up. Is it the dogs fault? No.

Having said that I still believe I have more of a right to not be injured by someones dog than they have to chance peoples safety with a dog known to have uncontrolled aggression.

On another note I believe these threads tend to lean toward the extremes.

If a dog nips someone then I'm not suggesting to swoop it up and run it down to be euthanized. The reasons need to be looked into and dealt with.

If on the other hand a dog mauls someone then I really don't understand those who want to do medical tests and behaviorists and training etc...
I don't think you can ever trust that dog again. If you still want to keep it I guess that is your choice and risk. (Chances are in a mauling Animal Control would take it anyway)

Still I think some on this forum would try to make it alright for this dog because they love him and it's not his fault.

For me the risk and the liability are not worth it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> I do not agree with sending a dog to its death based on one bite though.* Not without an evaluation and full medical work up.* That doesn't mean that the dog is in charge. It just means I believe in giving them a chance before arbitrarily killing them. Sorry.


I think it important to add the the evaluation be done by a qualified individual. Not yahoo petstore dog trainer but by a person who is familiar with the breed and with varying drives and natural aggression. 

I don't think someone who trains pugs and labs should evaluate a GSD if they aren't familiar with GSD's. I would want a trainer from a SchH club, or a similar organization, to evaluate the dog to give me an accurate read. Is it poor handling? Poor genetics?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mac's Mom said:


> Jax08 - Thanks for starting this thread. I've been thinking about this since I read the thread that prompted it.


Thank Andy.  I just copied his post to a new thread.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Thank Andy.  I just copied his post to a new thread.


I need to get my readin' glasses on...I thought you were calling me Andy LOL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:rofl: I can call you Andy if you want me to! LOL I do that all the time. I"m convinced I'm nuts half the time.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

First off....please keep in mind that I am only speaking for myself.

Some people are very dog savvy. Some people live alone or in adult only households. Some live in isolated areas. Some people seldom have company. Other people are not dog savvy, have kids, lots of company and live in high traffic areas. Every scenario will not be conducive to containing a people aggressive dog. 

Of my parents and in-laws, only my father was dog savvy and he has been gone for 10 years. My mother and mother-in-law actually feared my GSD. After all these years, they not only do not fear her, they adore her. She has been an excellent ambassador of the breed. Imagine if she had been people aggressive. I have kids, close neighbors and lots of people in and out of the house. It would be very difficult to monitor a people aggressive dog. Could it be done? Probably. Do I want to do it? No I do not. 

There are probably about as many ways to raise a dog as there are to raise a kid. People will always have their own opinions about what is and is not acceptable with their dog, or their child. I know people with disagree with my views on dogs, but they are mine, nonetheless. My dog is a dog. I love her to death. I would never allow anyone to hurt her or be mean to her. Those are her rights - her ONLY rights. My dog does not have the right to her own space. She does not have the right to not be annoyed or bothered. ALL the space belongs to me and I will be in any space I please. I will bother her when she is resting. I will wrap my arms around her head and kiss her face. I will put my head in her food bowl, if I so desire. She will tolerate any and all things that I do. And...she does. Not only does she tolerate these things, she does not seem at all bothered and she really knows no different. This is how she was raised. If one of my non-dog savvy relatives or friends stop by, they have nothing to fear. If they put their face in my dogs' face, she would lick them. If someone inadvertently stepped on her paw or tail, it would be OK. If someone picked up her toy or food bowl - no problem. That is what I expect from a dog.

The little dog that bit three people in the face? That dog would be crated when anyone visited. I just see no excuse for that. Little dog would be picking itself up off the floor or may need to be scraped off the wall. IMO that is just a nasty little dog.

Obviously there are people on this board who have and/or are dealing with people aggressive dogs and managing quite well. Those people are also quick to tell others of the importance of never letting ones' guard down. I don't think every individual is capable of managing such a dog. I don't think every individual wants to take on the responsibility or liability of managing such a dog. I am one of those. In my case, such a dog would be PTS, rather than be a danger to others.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I absolutely agree Stevenzachsmom. If Banshee had ever shown aggression to anyone in our family, that would have been the end. I am the only one that can cut her nails. But I'm the only one that doesn't let her get away with crap so when she grumbled at me the first time, we had a Come to Jesus talk. DH babies the dogs which does not help. We have had friends over and had Banshee in a bedroom or on a leash the entire time. Her worst times seem to be when we aren't home, or when DS was younger and finally allowed to be home alone she was extremely aggressive at the door. She was protecting her boy. And he is her boy.

Her aggression had nothing to do with how she was raised nor do I think it is all genetic though the aspects had to have been there for her to develop this. Her aggression came after her littermate died in an accident. I don't think she ever recovered from that trauma. Her littermate came in hurt, she was ushered to DS's bedroom so we could get to him without interference. We ran out the door with him to the vet, someone came and took her kids and she was left in the bedroom in chaos. And then we came home with Bandit's body. Anyone she knew prior to his death, she was fine with. Anyone that was knew to her was fair game. Luckily, the day we realized the extent of her aggression, she hit a closed door instead of the person leaving. We had a kitchen full of young boys. One of the father's walked out the door and she flew across the kitchen and hit the door in the air. She never bothered a child. It was all adults. In her old age, she has mellowed but we still can never let our guard down.

It's not only the type of aggression but what/who the aggression is directed at. The severity of it, the traffic and in out of your house, where you live and all the other things you listed. If we had a high traffic household then things may have turned out differently but we have also made changes to our lives to accommodate hers so we don't have a lot of people over.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I also agree about the little dog. When my son was about 5 years old, I got a phone call from his grandmother. Her husband's dog had bit him because he walked by him while eating. They begged me not to take him the doctor because it would then be reported. WTF??? The bite wasn't significant so he didn't need to to go the doctor's but I made it very clear that if that dog ever bit my children I would not hesitate to report it. Just simply "being to close" to the dog is not an acceptable reason for a bite. I found out years later that he was also biting the neighbors boy. ugh! Where is Lauri's thread on reporting dogs?

The difference between that dog and mine is, mine is never given the chance to bite. I don't make excuses for her and never will. She loves us, loves her boy and will finish out her time with us because we love her. But I don't ever want another aggressive dog. It is exhausting.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> My dog is a dog. I love her to death. I would never allow anyone to hurt her or be mean to her. Those are her rights - her ONLY rights. My dog does not have the right to her own space. She does not have the right to not be annoyed or bothered. ALL the space belongs to me and I will be in any space I please. I will bother her when she is resting. I will wrap my arms around her head and kiss her face. I will put my head in her food bowl, if I so desire. She will tolerate any and all things that I do. And...she does. Not only does she tolerate these things, she does not seem at all bothered and she really knows no different. This is how she was raised. If one of my non-dog savvy relatives or friends stop by, they have nothing to fear. If they put their face in my dogs' face, she would lick them. If someone inadvertently stepped on her paw or tail, it would be OK. If someone picked up her toy or food bowl - no problem. That is what I expect from a dog.
> 
> The little dog that bit three people in the face? That dog would be crated when anyone visited. I just see no excuse for that. Little dog would be picking itself up off the floor or may need to be scraped off the wall. IMO that is just a nasty little dog.
> 
> Obviously there are people on this board who have and/or are dealing with people aggressive dogs and managing quite well. Those people are also quick to tell others of the importance of never letting ones' guard down. I don't think every individual is capable of managing such a dog. I don't think every individual wants to take on the responsibility or liability of managing such a dog. I am one of those. In my case, such a dog would be PTS, rather than be a danger to others.


I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

stevenzachsmom and Jax08 thank you for your posts.

You both covered what I have been trying to say but said it much more clearly.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wanted to hit the quote button many times in this thread, but I'll not waste the space.

I agree totally with Cliff, it is the dog that is failed when its life is ended, poor breeding or handler management will be its downfall.
I also relate to deathmetals experience. In my SchH group we have a dog trainer that will take on dogs that may be euth'd if the owner can't deal.
He took on a young female working line that was too much for the owner. A great pedigree backing her~ she just needed to be with someone who could deal with her.
She tagged him often out of exhuberance, she also has nailed the helper thru the scratch pants and means business when she is biting him, the sleeve isn't her focus. 
But she has come along great in the past few months he has had her and her obedience is really amazing.

I don't see a tag or a bite as an issue unless the dog is in a 'red zone' and goes nuts. If someone else had this dog, she surely would have had her life ended due to her personality, she isn't fear aggressive, just needs to have boundaries and structure.

Onyx on the other hand is one that gets in that zone with vetting(FA), so we manage her. I crate her when company with children come over(she is fine with adults and teens, as long as they don't approach her at the first greeting) 
IF she ever gets to the point that I cannot manage her, she will be sent lovingly to the bridge. 
I don't train her in ScH or any sport, she is not temperamentally stable enough for that...in fact I cant really have her in any structured training even though I know she would excel with herding(instinct is huge with her) and she is a great tracker. But to get a title on her for either would be futile and I don't have the time/$ for it when I am already working another. 

It is heartbreaking to have a dog that you really can't take them to a potential due to the roadblocks they have in their genetic make-up.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I know this thread is months old, but I just saw and read through it and it brought so many emotions. In 1998 I got Raphael from a BYB ( before I knew better). (He was my first GSD from a breeder since the one my dad had gotten for me when I was 14, who was my best friend for 14 years.) At the age of 10 weeks this pup would growl and bit my 11 year old son who got too close to his food. I took Raph to a private trainer, who worked with the police and was told he has very bad nerves. I worked with the trainer weekly for a year and Raph knew all the commands, but when something set him off he became a different dog. He lunged at a street cleaner once, when we were walking and almost got killed. He became very good with our family, even around his food but one Christmas when he was 16 months he bit my father who walked to close to me. He bit a woman in the park who came close to speak with me, but, I was on him before she was seriously hurt and all we had to do was pay her Doctor visit. When he was 18 months I had him put down. No rescue would take him and I lost track of the breeder. My kids were only between 10 and 14 at the time, always had friends over and I could not guarantee the dog would not hurt or even kill someone. This was the hardest thing I have ever done because that dog loved me and I loved him. Raph also had a gently goofy side and used to try and herd butterflies! . I was and still am tormented for having him put down.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We had a very neurotic GSD we adopted in 2001 at about age 2, had him until about 2008 when he bit me one day while guarding his stuffies. 
I never thought I'd see the day - but he was such a mess, always, and my husband had told me and told me he'd do that. I just never thought he would...anyway I took him to the vet that day for his final visit. We could have tried and continued but my daughter and son were 13 and 16 and I'd never forgive myself if one of them got bitten.
It was strange...I didn't even cry when he was put to sleep because he had changed so much I could barely recognize him any longer. Canine Cognitive Disorder or just a lot of neurosis, we weren't sure which, but he was an awesome dog when he was "okay". When he wasn't, it was just sad.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> We had a very neurotic GSD we adopted in 2001 at about age 2, had him until about 2008 when he bit me one day while guarding his stuffies.
> I never thought I'd see the day - but he was such a mess, always, and* my husband had told me and told me he'd do that. I just never thought he would.*..anyway I took him to the vet that day for his final visit. We could have tried and continued but my daughter and son were 13 and 16 and I'd never forgive myself if one of them got bitten. it was just sad.


What is also sad is that your husband recognized you were in danger and
neither of you did anything about it... your husband because he didn't want to be the one to hurt you and you because you didn't trust your husband's instincts.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

He thought that a good year before it happened. There was a lot we could have done differently, done to prevent it...but we didn't, and after it was all done, we learned from it all. 
Hunter was never psychologically sound and we just managed him for the time we had him. One bite in all those years isn't bad, and it wasn't a bad bite, more of a "warning". But I wasn't going to wait for it to get worse, either.
**I think the reason I never thought he would was because the dog worshiped me from the day we got him. That dog picked my side of the bed and that's where he slept from the time we adopted him. I don't know. By the time things had deteriorated like they had, he'd just changed...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Debbieg: 

I'm sorry you are still tormented by the decision but you made the best decision you could at the time. I think that if he had seriously bitten one of your children's friends it really would have made you feel horrible.
These aren't easy decisions and some might say you should have done this or done that but they weren't there and they are not liable.
This forum, like anything to do with the internet has some excellent advice and education. Then there is a lot of BS and we all have to wade our way through and take what we can use and leave the rest. 
I can tell by the way you feel about it that you wouldn't have made a incorrect decision.
Somebody, I think Carmen said dogs are here to enhance our lives. (there was more) but that part stuck with me. I believe it works both ways. We hopefully will enhance there lives also. Sometimes it doesn't work for either or both.
Best wishes to you.


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