# Opinions on this litter?! Please?



## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Hello all!

Newbie here. I have been researching GSD for about a year, have visited various working line kennels in my area, and have decided on a male because of their size.

We had given a verbal to a breeder we love in my area on a litter that was supposed to be born this week. Come to find out, the puppies died during delivery.

About a year ago, we had talked to Charlie at http://www.aceofnike.com and he gave us a call back a couple weeks ago on this breeding http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=469966&modir=620716

I would just like everyone's opinion on this one before we make a decision.

Thank you so much for your help!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

What are your plans for the dog?


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

First of all, a family companion, but we will be doing schutzhund and protection work as well. My fiance and I are both very active so I feel that even a high endurance GSD will do well in the family.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

My club has two Nike pups right now. Very nice pups. Drivey, mean little guys. Bitey as heck! So beware ...


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

What's your level of GSD or other dog experience? I suspect these wll be very intense pups & not very forgiving of handler mistakes ...
Do you have any information on the dam?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Very nice female. I saw the puppies the other week when we left for Europe.  

Charlie is also working a male from another litter (Nike son) himself: Gabor has seen multiple progeny from Nike (both male and female) and VERY nice.

Tell Charlie specifically what you are looking for, what you experience level is and what is your support system.

Nike is the most stable, accomplished Ufo son in the states.


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

This is definitely my first go round with the GSD, but anything along the lines of training will be done in the local schutzhund club.

Charlie seems like a super nice guy, and given his track record, I can't imagine him having a "bad litter" with Nike.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

sorry I really meant day to day living with a very drivey pup, though in every litter there are usually some softer pups as well; eg, if your pup is <u>constantly</u> mouthy for the first 9months, how will you (& your SO) handle the sharking given that you want to do SchH? does your work schedule allow you 4 hours a day to devote to excersizing/working your pup? have you visited local SchH clubs, chosen a trainer for puppy classes (socialization fun rather than obedience oriented), really thought about where you want to be able to go with your dog & how you want your dog to act when you're there etc

Note this is in no way meant as a 'put down' just something to think about & be prepared for.

ETA I can't imagine those pups not being amazing as well


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: bss2t
> Charlie seems like a super nice guy, and given his track record, I can't imagine him having a "bad litter" with Nike.


Don't think folks that are familiar with the line are suggesting it would be a 'bad pup,' just advising you to talk in depth with the breeder about your hopes, and your experience with pups of this type (not all GSDs have the same drive, the same need to be worked, exercised etc...).

You may be the perfect owner for one of this litter, but better to really know what you're committing to with the pup.

Like children, all the training, exercise etc... is not optional - no days off and it's a learning curve.

Good luck with whichever pup you choose.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Yes, I meant "mean pups" as a compliment. I really like them.


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

"Mean pups"-LOL

Thanks so much for making me aware of the possible issues. As far as work schedule, mine is very flexible. I work from home, so I can take time to work the pup whenever. I was planning a couple mile run in the mornings, one at night, and games throughout the day. We have been to the local schutzhund club and feel comfortable working with them. Nice people.

I am somewhat concerned with the pup being "mouthy", but figured it will be worth it long term, so bring on the problem. It's just a pup anyway; they can't possibly know what they are doing isn't acceptable on the front end anyway.

I have heard that correcting a potential schutzhund/protection dog should be done differently than a typical non working dog. Any truth to this?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Actually - don't run the pup, ever. That's a quick and sure way to ensure the dog will break down before he even hits 1. The pup can run and play but don't take him jogging with you.


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Yea I meant when he is older, but completely said it wrong. 

Thanks Jason!


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Basically you don't correct a behavior that you want to develop, in this case, the Bite (or grip) so it's all about positive redirection of those puppy teeth (& big teenage teeth) onto toys or tugs.
Lots of positive training (whether it's potty training, leash walking, leave it, counter surfing etc) so that your dog has tons of confidence & on it goes. There are books & videos on how to train for prospective SchH - your local club probably has recommendations or maybe even loaners you can arrange from other members.

It's a good idea to know how you're going to redirect different puppy behaviors before your pup comes home, so if you're serious about getting one of these pups, get going on your research now.
This thread has some reading suggestions; there is also loads of info on the forum, eg, drive building 

Expect to wear dog clothes for the next several months to a year (or even longer with some pups)


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: bss2t
> Yea I meant when he is older, but completely said it wrong.


18 months older


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Went to see the pups yesterday, at 5 weeks so you couldn't tell a whole lot, but met both parents and they looked good!!

Nike is very impressive.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

And WHERE are the pictures!!!!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have an Ufo daughter, bred my Schh1 female Csabre to an Ufo son, and have had quite a few Ufo grandget....love the drive and temperament from the Ufo line.

That being said, hip production is something to look carefully at in any European litter, as it just does not seem to be as high a priority - so do your research on this aspect of the whole pedigree.

Again, love the Ufo stuff !

Lee


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

I am going to try and put the pictures in



























http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz59/bss2t/matrix3.jpg










Hope that worked.


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

The one we picked is on the left. Any opinions?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

they are both ADORABLE!

Lee


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

GORGEOUS


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

They look like little black bears









How did you end up picking the one of the left?


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Well it really was just a pick. He did seem a lot more independent which I liked. The one on the right was a really nice pup too, but seemed to always want to be around people, where the other was more apt to explore away from us. Plus the one we picked had a bigger head. But even with what we saw, I doubt it was a true representation of either one, so the breeder's opinion was weighed more heavily than ours.

We're excited!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Word of advice - the indendence will probably evolve into possessiveness - I tell all my puppy people who get Ufo grandkids to do two-toy play from day one, and get a recall - these are very very important if you don't want to watch your dog run circles around you with the toy playing keep away!!!! 

Again, they are absolutely adorable!

Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The hips from both parents look pretty good, no A3 in the background.

The good this is charlie is also working progeny from Nike (who was schmoozing all over Cara). Gabor worked a female and male from him (1 yr old) and thought very hightly of the work, as well as the stability of the temperament.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Beautiful puppies! It's interesting that you decided on more independent pup as your first GSD. They may be quite a challenge to train


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

They are beautiful. I'm sure that if the breeder also felt that the independent one would be a better fit for you, he will be. 

But with puppies that have the right drives and temperament for work and SchH, being more people oriented is not a bad thing. They can be very people oriented and excell in work also. 

If those were the two for you to pick from, I'm sure that either one would have worked out great. Congratulations!


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

I have a background in statistics so whenever I come across situations like behavior, I always have to wonder if what I saw was a representative sample. It may have been or may not have been, I don't know. Really I feel it was luck of the draw. The dog may be very introverted long term.

Couple of questions

1. I'm guessing Ufo was a bigtime breeding dog? Seems like his pups are around.

2. What is two toy play and how does it help possessiveness?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: bss2t
> I have a background in statistics so whenever I come across situations like behavior, I always have to wonder if what I saw was a representative sample.


And that is exactly why it is better to let the breeder choose a puppy for us - after observing the litter for 7+ weeks, they KNOW the dogs much better than we can determine in the short little visits we make. The gentler, more clingy pup may be a bruiser, but was in a clingy mood when you visited. The independent pup may be more balanced for a beginner, and was just distracted by something when you were there . . . you really don't know, but the breeder who has raised the litter and interacted with the puppies everyday since birth does know! 




> Quote:Couple of questions
> 
> 1. I'm guessing Ufo was a bigtime breeding dog? Seems like his pups are around.
> 
> 2. What is two toy play and how does it help possessiveness?


I'll let the knowledgeable breeders answer the Ufo question. 

Two toy (or two ball) is a technique one uses to teach the dog to give up a toy or object on command. One scenario goes this way: 
You have two balls with ropes. You throw one ball for the dog to retrieve. When puppy comes back with the ball, you give the out command and show him the other ball. Puppy will drop first ball, and immediately you throw the second ball as a reward. Or just let the dog grab the ball and you play tug. Let the puppy win!

This teaches the dog that giving up an object is fun and rewarding. It teaches the out in a positive, stress-free manner. Otherwise their can be a lot of issues down the road about the dog not wanting to give up the sleeve and not outing the sleeve. Your SchH club can teach you these techniques.


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## balakai (Feb 9, 2005)

Two ball is a must at my house! If I only have one toy, India won't give it up; if I have two, she'll eagerly spit out the first in order to get the second. It's translated well into getting her to release when tugging.

~Kristin


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Actually, Ufo was not used nearly as much as some other dogs of his generation - Tom Leefdahlhof for example. But was used enough that the caliber he produced became very evident. He has been represented at the WUSV nearly every year for the last 6 or so by at least one progeny, and often more - plus grandprogeny. And this from far less breedings than most of the big names.

I met him about 6 years ago when I visited Belgium, and absolutely loved his temperament. Very stable dog, extremely ball driven. There are probably less than a dozen Ufo progeny in the States actually - I have an Ufo daughter who is proving to be a very good producer; plus I bred my Sch1 female Csabre, to a very nice Ufo son last spring, and am raising a female from that litter. Several of those pups are in working homes and getting good feedback; as are many of the Basha progeny. There are some very consistant traits I have seen that come from Ufo, the toy possessiveness being one of them.

Lee


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

It's been a whole week







- isn't it time for updated pictures


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

I know!

The pups are about 250 miles from me. The breeder is coming up to my neck of the woods to deer hunt "in a couple of weeks" so I suppose no updates until then









BUT I may take a random trip to Atlanta this next weekend, and have new photos then. I bet I won't even recognize the pup he'll have grown so much!


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Hello all! Haven't received the pup yet, getting him next Saturday. Here is a video of the litter. Ours is the puppy in scene 3.

Brad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VROdT8zrwT8&feature=player_embedded


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Now imagine that is your arm!


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Add "Steri strips" to your 'must have ' list!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: zypAdd "Steri strips" to your 'must have ' list!


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Good heavens is it going to be that bad?


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

I guess another question I have is I was wondering if the video of the puppies behavior is typical?


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

yes, for good working line puppies


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

And he is a good WL puppy so yea. One more week!


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## kearanentalo (Nov 2, 2009)

Just my personal feeling, but I don't want the dog that is most independent. I want the dog that wants a relationship with me and likes people, especially if you want this dog to also be a family member. 

I want the pup that returns a ball or toy to me, not walks off with it. I want the puppy that wants to engage with me with play. I want the puppy that naturally wants to run full steam into me.

Are you familiar with the PAWS testing for puppies? 
http://www.malinut.com/ref/write/paws

This is a great test for someone considering a working puppy.

I like the head on that puppy, for sure! They are all just darling!!!!

Good luck!


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Great pups ... what made you choose scene 3 pup rather than pup in scene 4 (I'm assuming you decided on male first & then a particular pup)?

In this video, the last pup seems far more engaged with the man than the first male - females are more difficult to gage as they are shown in pairs ...


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

We picked ours out before the video was made. About a week before the video was made actually. The breeder said the one we picked would be a good fit, and was actually his choice too. When I saw the video, Alto, I thought the same so I don't know.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:Just my personal feeling, but I don't want the dog that is most independent. I want the dog that wants a relationship with me and likes people, especially if you want this dog to also be a family member.


Both of my Sibes were very independent which is typical of the breed. Admittedly, this extreme independence made 'em considerably more challenging to work with. Obedience was largely a game to them & most assuredly was NOT a vocation. They trusted their own judment & preferred making their own decisions. However, as is also typical of the breed, they were pack driven & strongly oriented to both people & dogs. Neither was 'clingy' or needy, but both were friendly, affectionate, thoroughly pleasant companions. 

Independent dogs aren't necessarily disinterested or unfriendly toward humans. They'll often be more difficult to train & aren't usually good choices for inexperienced or 'soft' owners. Owners of these dogs must provide firm, fair leadership & should strive to keep it interesting. When bored, these guys will merrily pursue their own (usually destructive!) agenda.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Brad, your puppy looks awesome!!! All the pups in the video are showing excellent interest in the tug toy. I don't think it is fair to try and compare the pups and evaluate them from a 30 second video clip - if the breeders are experienced at evaluating pups and placing them, then you will get the perfect puppy for you! 

Hint: Don't wear your good clothes around the pup! Congratulaions, I bet you just can't wait!


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

So based on the video is it possible to determine that the pup is independent?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: bss2tSo based on the video is it possible to determine that the pup is independent?


LOL, no! I don't know why that even came up! 

Based on the video it is possible to determine that the pup is drop-dead gorgeous and devilishly cute, has good drives for gripping and tugging the toy, and is confident and is comfortable being handled. 

He has good focus on the tug toy. That is a big plus, but then, all the pups in the video do, and that is normal play behaviour. 

Of course, making such a determination from a 30 second video is just a guess - I would trust the breeder and his/her determination about the pup's personality trait over random people watching the clip and commenting - and that includes me!


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

The video footage is just a snapshot into a pup in that moment - just be certain that you've been very clear with the breeder in what you want & what your dog training experience has been?

Eg, do you want a pup/dog that will cuddle with you too, or are you fine with a dog that adores you but is happiest without any of the hugging (my childhood dog did everything with me, including tolerating my hugs but tolerance was all it was ...)

Looking at the combination of this breeder & the parent dogs, I suspect all the pups would do what you want in terms of drive & activities BUT if you (or your fiance) have limited dog experience, I'd ask the breeder for the softest dog in the litter; then when you're ready for a second dog, get the driviest dog in a comparable litter. This also depends on what resources are available to you in terms of trainers etc.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: was actually his choice too


the pup the breeder would keep for himself, or, the pup he'd choose for you - not sure how you meant this?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Doesn't independent mean that the dog has a possessive streak? Isn't that what Lee said about the Ufo line? That they are possessive?


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Sorry the one he picked for us


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Then that is likely the right pup for you








afterall the breeder has actually met you & watched you & your fiance interect with his dogs & the litter & that is worth so much more that any internet advice








OTOH if you felt like you connected personally with a different pup, then ask the breeder why he feels pup A would be a better match than pup B ...











Does this already feel like it's going to be the longest week of your life?


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Yea I'm sure the week is going to drag. I've been looking at shepherds for about a year so its time for pup to come home!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

No, the week after you get your pup will be the longest week. Multiple midnight potty breaks, cleaning up after them, crate training and trying to tune out their hysteria when you put them in the crate, worrying about their appetite and poop, hoping they don't pick up any stupid crap before they are done with their shots! I want him to be 12-15 months old already!


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## Bcannie (Jul 8, 2009)

I think I am in agreement Jason.... I love my new addition and she has made me laugh alot, and she has gotten MUCH better just in three weeks. But I'm really looking foward to the dog she will be also!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Isn't today the big day?


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

& now it's the DAY AFTER!!!!!


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## bss2t (Oct 23, 2009)

Yay!!!

He's here with me now! I'll post more pics soon. The ride home from Atlanta was about 3.5 hours and he slept most of the way. But man when he saw the carrier he started SCREAMING and he screamed for about 5 minutes. I really thought he would do it the entire ride home.

Very loving pup. He is chewy, but even when he bites at our fingers, it is very soft. Will this change?

Also, he really hates his carrier/crate. Completely goes bonkers when I put him in it, but after a few minutes, calms down. Is this normal? I feel so bad for the little guy being away from his buddies and all. 

Should I let him have availability to the entire house? Right now I do, but I follow him everywhere.

I'm also putting another post in puppy behavior. YAY! I'm EXHAUSTED!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Congrats!!!!

Remember, crate is your friend. Don't let him "talk" you out of not using the crate. Let him scream all he wants (it's normal) but don't give in!! It's a battle you must win.









I crate Ike A LOT. Part of it is for training reasons (bonding, developing a good work ethics), part of it is out of necessity because he is a 18lbs landshark right now that pees and poops whenever and wherever he wants. 

So basically his life right now pretty much consists of three things: potty breaks, playtime and feeding time with me, and crate. That's it. His interaction with the other dogs and other parts of the house are limited to maybe 10-20 minutes a day, supervised.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Congrats on your new baby! Can't wait for pictures!!!!

Gosh, if every breeder would do what Karlo's did when he was a baby, there would be no screaming, housetraining, sleepless nights. I was fortunate that his transition from the littermates/breeders to my home was so smooth. He was the first to leave the litter, too.
He was use to a crate, and went for rides a few times before we took him home. We only had 3 accidents in the house and none in his crate. 
Onyx was the opposite, cried the first few nights in her crate, and had several accidents, howled all the way home her first ride. 

Keep the crate by your bed at night, it does help. 
Can't wait for pics, did I write that already??


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Jane,

Seriously only 3? Ike had 3 just in the last hour! Stupid Ike ...


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