# highlines??



## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

can somebody explain what highlines are?? are they the same as workingline or showline??


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/119824.html

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/133576.html

"Highlines" are the German/European showlines. Or to make it easier, just about any showline outside of the American lines. Some showlines make good working dogs but many are bred just for the showring. Most are black and red/tan like Larus in the first link but a few do still come in sable like Torsten in the second link. As far as I know, there are no longer any black, bicolor, or white highlines; if there are any, they are likely to be mixed with one of the other lines.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Just another term for German show lines. Most German show line people prefer to call them "highlines" rather than "German show lines"


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

The Reason most use the term here, because if you say Show lines, people in North American tend to think this means "American Hock Walkers".


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Brian, not all of them are like that.







Remember too that the German showlines have their fair share of conformation nightmares. 

"Highlines" is used to better differentiate between the American showline and the German showline, that way if you have someone saying "showline" and another saying "highline," it's fairly clear which is which.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I never know which to say. Usually I call Nikon a German show dog b/c he was bred in Germany, his mother was imported from Germany, and I fully intend to show him in that type of venue. I feel like if I call him a "highline" to someone who doesn't know GSDs it sounds like I'm trying to be snotty. I have referred to him as a "show line" or show dog and gotten responses like "oh but he's so much more moderate!" and I take it as an opportunity to point out some differences in type.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Definitely one of those things where preferred terminology depends on what side of the Euro bloodline fence you're on. Seems most German show poeple prefer the term "highlines". Whereas most working line people take exception to the term "highlines" and call them "German show".


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

"Highlines" is the actual translation of the word used in Germany to describe them...which I don't have at my fingertips....

Here, most fanciers of them call them "working show lines".....









Lee


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMBrian, not all of them are like that.
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> ...


Diana

The general public only sees whats on TV, the AM line Black/Tan is what they know is a GSD.

Can't tell you how many times I have been asked by people even dog people what my GSD is crossed with. (his head is different his color, he walks on his feet).

And now people want to know what kind of dog the puppy is







"what a black GSD never seen one before"


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Duh Brian, a black GSD is actually a lab mix! You of all people should know that.
















It is a shame that most people see only the AKC Eukanuba Tourney or Westminster GSDs that wobble on their feet, but not all of them are like that. But if they were to see the German Sieger show or the US siegers, what would they see? Frog-rears? Cowards? This is why this forum is so wonderful- we can direct people to good breeders of SOUND dogs whatever the lines, we can tell them to look beyond the titles for an owner who has taken the time to discover what the dog truly is beneath the fur, and we can educate them on why they should care. We're all doing our part to direct them away from the extremes and to what a real GSD should be- functional and beautiful both mentally and physically.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:
> Can't tell you how many times I have been asked by people even dog people what my GSD is crossed with. (his head is different his color, he walks on his feet).


We should start a club. *laughs*

My friend has a very lovely but backyard bred rescue girl that is black and light tan, which is what most people consider to be a GSD in the States. We were at an event recently, and people would come up to his girl and say, "What a lovely German Shepherd" and come up to my Abby who's black and red and just under 24" at the withers and say, "What kind of dog is that? What's it mixed with? Why is it so small?"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris I agree, most people around here don't necessarily think of AKC specialty GSDs as their image of a GSD. In fact besides at AKC/UKC shows I have not encountered a dog of that type ever around here. Mostly I see GSD mixes that are probably from BYBs or mills. Also I see working lines and west German show lines. Regardless of type though the people around here have quite a large dog in mind. People constantly ask if Kenya is a mix and Coke is a shepherd, lol. Kenya is pure working lines within the standard (and CH) and as far as I know Coke is not part shepherd. It doesn't seem that her color (sable but lighter) or lack of extreme angulation and/or roaching is an issue, just her size.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum
> Here, most fanciers of them call them "working show lines".....
> 
> 
> ...


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

If I were a sensitive person, I would be offended by that laugh Lisa! but, even my "working show line dog" and I laught at that the term "working show line". 

Gipsi HATES it when I call her a high line or a german show line, in her mind she is just a German Shepherd Dog.....she has no idea that she is anything other than a GSD of correct standard.

To me, I really don't like all the "labels" associated with the german shepherd dog. Either the dog can work or it cannot. Work can be defined in so many different ways. However, a stable temperamented GSD is a good dog! Then there are those labeled as over achievers!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I bought a German show dog to show him and I'm laughing!


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Diana

We have been in the ring with both types, Regional GSD & National Sieger!
And I did not have to worry about getting bitten walking around at the Sieger Shows.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Well that's definitely a bonus. I know that even at AKC performance events you have to be careful, not really so much because of the dog but because of super-careless handlers. Even at training I see people with good dogs that are completely out of control! And the dog learns handily that it is just fine to ignore the pleadings of Mom.







The dogs don't worry me; I always have an eye on who is on the other end of the leash, though!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Deejays_OwnerCan't tell you how many times I have been asked by people even dog people what my GSD is crossed with. (his head is different his color, he walks on his feet).


Oh man, try having a sable GSD with floppy ears. Nobody has any clue he's a Shepherd.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Quote:Oh man, try having a sable GSD with floppy ears. Nobody has any clue he's a Shepherd.


Now that must be a lot of fun









Last night went to Petsmart, so my Daughter could do some people socializing & focus work
under distractions with her pup. Deejay & I head to our station at the small Animal, he can stand
and look at the rats & things for hours. A man is looking at the birds, he sees Deejay coming puts
his hand down for Deejay. Deejay goes right pass him, to the rat tank, I tell the guy he is here to
buy a pet. Then the questions start, how old is he. I tell the guy Deejay is 3, and that is the size
a GSD should be. (Deejay is 25") Then as Shannon & Little Ray start off, what type of dog is she.
Shannon tells the guy a GSD as well, then what is she crossed with. Then I go into she is a German
working dog, & he is a German Show dog. As I'm watching Shannon getting great attention Heeling
from Little Raven on her way to the back of the store. They come back I'm still trying to tell this
Guy about the GSD types. Little Ray sits beside the guy, he starts giving her a scratch on the top
of her head.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Barb and I gave up taking our old fashioned classic shepherds to shows with us which meant, for practical purposes that I gave up going to shows (too hard to get around without the dog) because it was so embarrassing. We don't have to tell anyone that our dogs are working (wheelchair assistance, brace-balance) they can see it and they tell us that these are the kind of dogs they want to see, not those in the ring! People want to see sound dogs with level backs who can stand up on their feet and put their hind feet under their bodies and support themselves with them (and us). We don't have to tell them that they are German shepherds, either, even though my last two wheelchair dogs and her brace-balance dog were all sables. People know a classic german shep when they see one!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

_Hochlinien_ are highlines.. just a direct translation from the German. It just means the German showlines dogs that we see in the Sieger shows, in UKC shows in America, and also in many active pet homes and (GASP!!) even working in real-life jobs







that require both drives AND sound nerves. (I live in Germany-- some of the "highlines" here are WAY too drivey for ME, and some have rocksolid nerves... NICE dogs-- and I currently have a workinglines dog!)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

khawk, I have done AKC obedience with my working line dogs and constantly have spectators barrage me with the same questions....

I took Danger for a CD leg to a convention center show (over 4000) entries every day. I went to watch friends showing Vislzas and Germ Shrthairs who were right accross from the GSD conformation ring, and spectators and other breed fanciers kept admiring him and commenting on his normalcy







compared to "those other GSDs" within earshot of the GSD handlers with the hock walker types! It got me ALOT of dirty looks and whispers about "crazy schutzhund dogs" - LOL while Danger played politician kissing everyone and getting lots of hugs and belly rubs!

Lee


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:It got me ALOT of dirty looks and whispers about "crazy schutzhund dogs" - LOL while Danger played politician kissing everyone and getting lots of hugs and belly rubs!


Ahaha, you too!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf_Hochlinien_ are highlines.. just a direct translation from the German. It just means the German showlines dogs that we see in the Sieger shows, in UKC shows in America, and also in many active pet homes and (GASP!!) even working in real-life jobs
> 
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> ...


Hummmmm I wonder if this is why Havoc is soooo drivy - both his parents are imports. He out drives some of the working lines around here. 

My actual personal preference is the American showline. I never have had a hock walker.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I have "old fashion" german shepherds and a k9 officer saw one at the vets and asked me what type of dog I had. When I said "it's 100% German shepherd, he shook his head in disbelief! I guess he was use to those squeely little runts bouncing off the walls. LOL

Does anyone know anything (height and weight) of some of the GSDs back in the mid-late 60s? Thick boned, blocky head, substancial body and nerves of steel?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocI have "old fashion" german shepherds and a k9 officer saw one at the vets and asked me what type of dog I had. When I said "it's 100% German shepherd, he shook his head in disbelief! I guess he was use to those squeely little runts bouncing off the walls.


By "squeely little runts" do you mean normal sized GSDs who are true to their standard and heritage, the sort a K9 handler would be used to seeing?



> Originally Posted By: Doc
> Does anyone know anything (height and weight) of some of the GSDs back in the mid-late 60s? Thick boned, blocky head, substancial body and nerves of steel?


Well, if you hop on google you can look up photos of GSDs from back in the 60s, and even further back than that... all the way back to the beginning.

And you will find that the true "old fashioned" GSD was not large, blocky, thick boned or overly substantial. It was in fact a smaller leaner dog than what is typically seen today.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Do you want to look how the "GSD of the past" looked?

Look at this site:
http://www.angesgardiens.ca/ANG/Bundessieger%20list.htm


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> Does anyone know anything (height and weight) of some of the GSDs back in the mid-late 60s? Thick boned, blocky head, substancial body and nerves of steel?


Just look on PDB. Here's a few from my female's pedigree. They don't look very big to me...

1967 - "Gut mittelgroß"









1966 - "Mittelgroß"









1966 - "Gut mittelgroß"









1962 - "Gut mittelgroß"









1959 - "Mittelgroß, mittelschwer"


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Even the old DDR dogs weren't huge "back in the day".

This was a "V" rated dog that was born in 1965.










Another "V" rated DDR dog, born in 1966.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There are "breeders" that breed over-sized GSDs by surreptitiously mixing in other giant breeds, then marketing them as "old-fashioned" GSDs.

Complete fabrication.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

A lot of them don't even mix in other breeds. Many are breeding extremely oversized purebred GSDs. Doesn't take long to develop such a bloodline, especially when size is the primary criteria for breeding.









Then they call them "old style" or "old fashioned" and sell them to people who either mistakenly believe that is what the GSDs of yore were like, or think bigger is better, or both.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

There *is* a grain of truth to this. Remember the huge, relatively mellow backyard breeder pet GSDs with the health issues and temperament concerns of the 1970's and 80s? I do. John Q. Public wanted GSD facsimiles-- that working dog breed look, without all the high octane.. OH, and make 'em supersized, too! Vets waitingrooms were crammed with itchy, limping, bad tempered dogs. 

That said, I think most of us do remember a few wonderful, stable dogs of this type from this era... mellow, take-anywhere kind of dogs. But, a good one without health issues was hard to find, as size and "look" were such a priority.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

That has never changed. For many decades in the US there have been BYBs producing supersized dogs. And it's not just GSDs, but it occurs in many of the larger breeds, particularly those of working breeds. Only thing different is now they have websites.

But this has never been the norm, then or now, and has never been something that responsible breeders who truly respect the breed and want to preserve it's heritage have pursued. 

Not something you will ever find in Europe either, regardless of the decade (I'm not counting the current trend in show lines for larger size... that's very recent) because the breeding standards over there that do not permit people to just throw two purebreds together to produce a litter of registered pups go a long way in preventing this sort of BYB breeding behavior.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Here's my "old fashiond" GSD.









I don't know how tall he was, but he was NOT a large dog. (If I had to guess I would say maybe 24 inches or so.) (He was born in the mid 70's.)


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Bernd vom Lierburg weighed 95 pounds and was 25.2 inches at the withers. What do the "acceptable" weigh today and their height?

What would a male that is 27" and 95 pounds be classified as? Standard, oversized, supersized? Just curious. And a female that is 26" and 85 pounds. Both are in great shape. Can feel ribs so not fat. Are they just plain old "big" German shepherds?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

A 27 inch tall male and a 26 inch tall female would BOTH be oversized no matter how much they weigh.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Bernd's height was well within standard. That weight would be considered over standard, but while there are specifications to weight within the standard, it is more important that the dog be an appropriate, healthy weight for his height and build.

A 27" male and 26" female are oversized, and always have been. What is acceptable has not changed. Bernd and like sized males have always been within standard, 27" males and 26" females have never been.

GSD Standard:
Males: 60 cm to 65 cm (24-26"), 30-40kg (66-88lbs)
Females: 55 cm to 60 cm (22-24"), 22-32kg (49-71lbs)


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

I would say the male is over-sized & the female is super-sized!!!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

So is there any difference in the standards among different organizations? Afterall, von Stephenitz discovered a dog that exemplified the goals of his breeding program. I think he was also very interested in the utility and intelligence of the breed. The usefulness has changed throughout the years. What is the "usefullness" measurement for dogs that conform to a panels "ideal" of height and shape of a dog?

I understand, but not necessarily agree, that a sloped dog has a more fluid gait - but for what purpose? To impress the judges?

And you are right Brightelf. Years ago there were "big" German shepherds that were calm, protective family pets. These were not crossed with other breeds - they were selected from normal german shepherd litters. So what is so unacceptable if someone breeds a big male and big female to produce the same type of shepherd that was around 40 years ago? A breeding program focused on these types dogs can eliminate many of the health issues that were associated with the bigger dogs i.e. hips, heart, mega, etc. much in the same way breeders have for their "conformation" dogs.

If you back far enough, I think you find that the "shepherd" dogs of old came in all different shapes and sizes. From the size of Great Pyranes to a Welsh Corgi and everything in between.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

And I can bet you are going to tell us next that both dogs are long coats too?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You actually have it backwards. It's vise versa. You almost got it! But, it's actually the other way around: Breeding those nice big ol' dawgs INCREASED the heart, hip, skin, auto-immune, and other health disasters. This was admittedly NOT because the dogs were large, but because that was more of a goal in breeding selection than health was. In breeding, one must prioritize, because you can't have everything. 

"But what if I want to breed BIG dogs, and am really, really careful about health screening?" Okay, but... what about temperament? Not just "a nice dog"-- it needs to be stable off it's own property, under stress, when evaluated that way-- ideally by someone who is an impartial judge, and not the owner/handler, who has a collossal (but understandable) bias. 

Again, I admit there were some wonderful dogs during that time during the 70s when the craze was for those big dogs. But so many nervous, snappish, skittish dogs with a whole slew of health problems. This was a true _avalanche_ for the breed in terms of health issues.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocSo is there any difference in the standards among different organizations?


Not significantly, no. There are some minor variations from country to country, but they are extremely minor. What does vary is the interpretation of the standard, with many breed clubs and judges having their own preferred look and interpreting the standard to fit it. Things like size and color really aren't up for debate. Those are pretty black and white. But when it come to angles, what constitutes a "gently sloping topline" and such, where subjective opinion can interpret the standard in different ways, there can be huge variance.



> Originally Posted By: Doc What is the "usefullness" measurement for dogs that conform to a panels "ideal" of height and shape of a dog?


That's the whole point of the size parameters in the standard. To maximize utility. A dog large enough to successfully take on a man or an ornery sheep, and small enough to remain quick, agile and athletic. 



> Originally Posted By: Doc
> I understand, but not necessarily agree, that a sloped dog has a more fluid gait - but for what purpose? To impress the judges?


Because it fits a widespread, powerful group's interpretation of the standard. Other large, influential groups within the community of breed fanciers have other interpretations, so their dogs look different. Yet others place much more emphasis on personality than looks. This being why there are so many varieties of GSD today... many groups with their interpretations of what is an ideal GSD, and huge differences between what those ideals are.



> Originally Posted By: Doc
> So what is so unacceptable if someone breeds a big male and big female to produce the same type of shepherd that was around 40 years ago? A breeding program focused on these types dogs can eliminate many of the health issues that were associated with the bigger dogs i.e. hips, heart, mega, etc. much in the same way breeders have for their "conformation" dogs.


A breeding program that focuses on ANY ONE THING, be it size or anything else, is going to be plagued with health and temperament problems. Because that is what happens when one specific aspect becomes paramount to breeding. Other, often more important aspects of breedworthiness, fall by the wayside in favor of breeding a dog of a specific size, color, coat type, gait, etc...

Good breeders strive to produce the total dog.. a healthy dog who in temperament and structure is a good representative of the breed (though as discussed above, different camps have different ideas of what correct temperament and structure are).

Good breeders also respect the standard of the breed they have chosen and work to produce sound, healthy dogs who fit the standard. People who want supersized dogs have any number of breeds to choose from, including some pseudo-breeds like Shilohs and Kings that were created specifically to be a huge, laid back GSD. There is no need to further distort the GSD breed.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocSo is there any difference in the standards among different organizations? Afterall, von Stephenitz discovered a dog that exemplified the goals of his breeding program. I think he was also very interested in the utility and intelligence of the breed. The usefulness has changed throughout the years. What is the "usefullness" measurement for dogs that conform to a panels "ideal" of height and shape of a dog?
> 
> I understand, but not necessarily agree, that a sloped dog has a more fluid gait - but for what purpose? To impress the judges?


Hi Doc! I think you are in the right path to understand the idea.

This site explain very well the idea od different varieties of GSDs not in different countries, but in different venues.
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Has it not been distored with the extreme angulation? I know you don't mean to sound like a there are no "oversized" German shepherds that are healthy - and some represent the breed better than the yippy nervous show dog that bites the judges. That is too much of a generalization. My "big dawgs" live as healthy of life, if not longer, than some the so-called healthy conforming GSDs. An open mind is rare in the GSD world - it's no wonder we have hock-walkers that have an inch of clearance on their rump when stacked.

I'll just take my big old dawgs to the pasture and let em round up some sheep.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

And Chris, decent human beings respect one another. 

Thanks for your help LicanAntal


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocHas it not been distored with the extreme angulation? I know you don't mean to sound like a there are no "oversized" German shepherds that are healthy - and some represent the breed better than the yippy nervous show dog that bites the judges. That is too much of a generalization. My "big dawgs" live as healthy of life, if not longer, than some the so-called healthy conforming GSDs. An open mind is rare in the GSD world - it's no wonder we have hock-walkers that have an inch of clearance on their rump when stacked.
> 
> I'll just take my big old dawgs to the pasture and let em round up some sheep.


I think you're preaching to the choir here. You won't find many here that condone the extreme angulation and often larger size that the specialty rings favor.

Personally, I do not see any benefit whatsoever to intentionally breeding oversized dogs and not only that, but selecting breeding dogs with size in mind. I don't know of any top working dogs in any venue that are so large in size. There must be reasons why more agile, medium-large sized dogs do so well...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocHas it not been distored with the extreme angulation? I know you don't mean to sound like a there are no "oversized" German shepherds that are healthy - and some represent the breed better than the yippy nervous show dog that bites the judges. That is too much of a generalization. My "big dawgs" live as healthy of life, if not longer, than some the so-called healthy conforming GSDs. An open mind is rare in the GSD world - it's no wonder we have hock-walkers that have an inch of clearance on their rump when stacked.
> 
> I'll just take my big old dawgs to the pasture and let em round up some sheep.


Where did I say that big dogs aren't healthy? What I said is that they are out of standard, and while a good dog is a good dog regardless of size, there is no valid reason to intentionally breed dogs out of standard.

I am most certainly not a fan of the structure and temperament of the show lines. 

But how did they get there? By placing emphasis on one certain aspect, a physical attribute at that, and letting other (argueably more important) factors to fall by the wayside in favor of breeding for that specific trait.

How is breeding for a supersized GSD any different? 

Good breeding is about BALANCE. To produce dogs who represent the true standard of the GSD. And like it or not, size is a part of the standard.

Sure, if I had to choose I'd rather have an oversized healthy dog of solid nerve and proper working temperament than I would a standard sized dog of poor health, nerve and temperament. Might be rather hard to find since the majority of the out of standard breeders, be it color, coat, size or anything else, don't tend to bother with things like health clearances, much less titles, to prove their breeding stock.

Fortunately there are many breeders out there who are using titled/health screened breeding stock and producing healthy dogs of sound nerve and proper working temperament who DO fit the standard with regards to size, color, coat and everything else.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

So "the standard", which is one persons idea, can not be challenged or debated? When was the "the standard" written? In an era where shepherd dogs were herding animals? Does form follow function? If the "standard" is cast in concrete, how in Sam Hills did we end up with hock-walking low rider dogs? At least my "outcast, red-headed stepchildern" big dogs walk on their feet and have a straight back and angled croup and can round up my mules if I need them too.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocSo "the standard", which is one persons idea, can not be challenged or debated? When was the "the standard" written? In an era where shepherd dogs were herding animals? Does form follow function? If the "standard" is cast in concrete, how in Sam Hills did we end up with hock-walking low rider dogs? At least my "outcast, red-headed stepchildern" big dogs walk on their feet and have a straight back and angled croup and can round up my mules if I need them too.


Again, you are preaching to the choir. Take a look at Chris' dogs, you will not find hockwalkers in her kennel!

Yes, I believe form should follow function. That is why good working GSDs have typically been medium to medium-large in size.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Doc, you'll find that HALF THE DOGS OF THIS BOARD are oversized or overweighted, so we are nobody to criticize you or your dog, who I bet is wonderful and I'm waiting for pics of (no introduction is complete without pics







) But we criticize those who, in the name of selling more litters, promote those oversized dogs as what the GSD was and should be, when it was never that way and if it were, the breed would loose its working ability and, you know, GSD were supposed to be a working breed. 

The point of Chris post is not against you, you both agree! The GSD shouldn't be bred with only one aspect in mind, you put as example the overly sloped dog (that you won't find many fans in this forum) as something that is ruining the breed and Chris is saying that someone who does the same, but focusing only in size is guilty of the same mistake.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

A standard is the blueprint of a breed. When someone creates a breed, that person gets to decide what the blueprint is. If people don't like it, they can go find another breed or make their own, but once that blueprint is set, it is more or less set in stone. That's the whole point to having a breed standard.

The GSD standard, unlike those of many other breeds, was designed to maximize the utility of the dog. Everything from size to height/length ratio to coat type to color to earset to overall structure and angulation was designed to create the most versitile working dog possible.

Yes, form should follow function. And the size of the dog is an important part of it's ability to function as an all around working dog. 

The fact that some camps have choosen to disregard the spirit of the standard and the reasons behind it's parameters doesn't mean it's a good thing to do so. Heck, considering the track record of what this has done to the breed, it certainly seems like a pretty bad idea. There wouldn't be skittish hockwalkers running around if people had focused on maintaining balance in the breed, didn't allow their preferences regarding structure to override its functionality, and had remembered that whole thing about how it's supposed to be a working dog, in structure and temperament.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiDoc, you'll find that HALF THE DOGS OF THIS BOARD are oversized or overweighted, so we are nobody to criticize you or your dog, who I bet is wonderful and I'm waiting for pics of (no introduction is complete without pics
> 
> 
> 
> ...


EXACTLY!

Thanks, Catu!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

So old Max is at a dog show and sees this non-descript unruly dog and decides that this will become the standard for all German shepherds. And with his militaristic attitude and personality, proceeds to impose his wants and desires on the formation of a dog club for German shepherds as long as the breeders and dogs conform to his standard. And the German breeders went along with it.

I don't think the British saw it the same way, or many others outside of Germany. Perhaps i will write a standard for my dogs and call them Doc shepherds. rofl


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> Perhaps i will write a standard for my dogs and call them Doc shepherds. rofl


Not the first in USA to say that... just look at the Akita and the Cocker Spaniel.

Ooooops! Wrong forum to say that out loud...


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Doc, a good portion of the Euro working lines and a few of the German showlines and a few American showlines still have excellent, moderate structure, are within standard, and exemplify the GSD breed characteristics. 









A gorgeous working line dog. Fits the standard very nicely. V rated.









A gorgeous German showline that also fits the standard well. V rated.

But "calm...." What is your definition of "calm?" A good GSD has PREY DRIVE, is active, energetic, but not hyper, and is calm so long as its needs for physical and MENTAL exercise are met. A good GSD is no couch potato and never should be. What do you do with your dogs on any given day? 



> Quote:And Chris, decent human beings respect one another.


That's exactly what we're doing now, isn't it? I saw no disrespect anywhere in the last few posts.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DocSo old Max is at a dog show and sees this non-descript unruly dog and decides that this will become the standard for all German shepherds. And with his militaristic attitude and personality, proceeds to impose his wants and desires on the formation of a dog club for German shepherds as long as the breeders and dogs conform to his standard. And the German breeders went along with it.
> 
> I don't think the British saw it the same way, or many others outside of Germany. Perhaps i will write a standard for my dogs and call them Doc shepherds. rofl


Goodness, you NEED to pick up a copy of v. Stephanitz's book, "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture." Then you will understand what he has intended with this breed. There are wonderful photos of dogs working in all sorts of positions, most notably family babysitter.







This is the true versatile breed and why careless breeding affects the breed so poorly.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Well lets see, we ride down to Earnies before sunup for coffee and eggs, then we ride the range 'til dinner time, take a nap on the porch, then ride the back 40 looking fer strays, come home, round up the livestock, bed down, then do it all again tomorrow.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Hey if your dogs herd your stock and can handle the stock that fight back, that's perfect.







Good job!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

So if I breed a balanced dog that happens to be a bit larger than the standard, will you all invite to the next "dawg" outing? LOL


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If is a bit over standard, I may not have a problem (given as a fact that balanced also means with all the health clearances). If the dog is oversized, then it has to be an oustandig dog in all other aspects to worth it and with a carefully chosen dam.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Hey Doc

What's your Kennel name?
You are a breeder of "Old Fashion" German Shepherds are you not?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I plead the 5th. Lets just say, I do have experience with big dogs. I'm here to learn about German shepherds - all the types and opinions. I've been a student of the breed for over 30 years. And have learned as much about people as I have about dogs. I am particularly interested in some the lines of the mid to late 60's - dogs that were used both for show and work. An "all purpose" German shepherd if you will. It is a shame to think that now-a-days a dog can not do both. A pitty really.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:dogs that were used both for show and work. An "all purpose" German shepherd if you will. It is a shame to think that now-a-days a dog can not do both.


Again, see the dogs above. These dogs work. We have breeders here on this board with show-rated dogs that do work very well. We don't need oversized dogs bred on false beliefs. We have these dogs now and they DO meet the standard. 

http://www.vomhausmansfield.com/Our_Females.html
This bitch looks good.

http://www.vomhausmansfield.com/Gipsi_Earns_SchH2.html
And she works even better.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DocI plead the 5th. Lets just say, I do have experience with big dogs.


Yes, I see you just joined today, but you have posted before on this board if I remember correctly.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocSo if I breed a balanced dog that happens to be a bit larger than the standard, will you all invite to the next "dawg" outing? LOL


Doc what is your purpose here? This is a thread about German highlines, and you post glorifying selective breeding of oversized dogs and call correct sized working dogs "runts", but now you are all about a "balanced" dog that just happens to be large?


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

Doc, are you East Coast GSD ?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

_Intellengent_ site...


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I must have been here before Brian, but for the life of me I couldn't remember either the password or username - I guess that comes with age.

Lies, is it unheard of to have a balanced large German shepherd? Apparently so. My purpose for being here has already been posted. I have no hidden agenda. Having a purpose wasn't one of the required answers to join. 

I'm sorry if I have offended the establishment. I will throw myself upon the mercy of the powers that be.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ahlamaranaDoc, are you East Coast GSD ?


Indeed he is. Good catch, Sarah.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Funy how you breed oversized dogs with low prey drive for SAR work. It made my day, ROFL!!

The reason of why the breed is so divided is because YOUR definition of "Balanced" is quite the opposite from mine.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I've had the large GSD and the standard GSD - the large one, like larger dogs tend to do, broke down younger. I loved him dearly and had to lose him younger. If I wanted a large-breed dog, I'd get a Newfie or a Pyr.

Are the dogs on the website linked above truly purebred? They don't look it to me, but then again I'm used to seeing the GSDs on this forum who are really quality.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Not sure but 1,500 for limited reg. and 3,500 for full reg, is A LOT of money for just "old fashion" German shepherds.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Sorry Doc, those don't look like GSDs. Maybe Malamute x GSD mixes, maybe mastiff x GSD mixes, maybe GSD mixed with some sort of livestock guardian breed, but those no longer look like GSDs and I bet they don't act like GSDs. I also have to say that they all look overweight.









These are definitely not "old fashioned GSDs." A TRUE old fashioned GSD is a nice, solid working line that has not been bred as a "points dog." 



> Quote:reeding large, oversized german shepherds with clam temperments for family pets.


I'm sure you mean "calm temperaments" and not "clam temperments" but a GSD SHOULD NOT BE BRED FOR THIS. THEY ARE *NOT* COUCH POTATOES. You are breeding oversized mastiff mixes that lounge around all day, not GSDs. Where are the hip and elbow certifications? The temperament tests and titles? If you post videos of your two dogs actually herding stock, and I don't mean ducks or a couple of sheep, I'll gladly eat my words, but somehow I think YOU do the herding and THEY just tag along.









What's with all the breeders we're getting lately that don't understand what a proper GSD is and should be?


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DocAnd have learned as much about people as I have about dogs.


So true, * Super-Sized* Me !!!










Oh yes, Way to go Sarah, for the life of me I could not remember his Kennel name


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM What's with all the breeders we're getting lately that don't understand what a proper GSD is and should be?


I don't think it's really a "misunderstaning" as much as it's a supply for a very real demand. Most folks who want a GSD from our rescue want a family dog that "looks" like a GSD, but is a lab or a goldie at heart. Few are up to the challenge when a "real" GSD with the matching temperament, drives and energy comes along. Most don't even want to be ready. No time, young kids, tons of visitors, etc. 
Now thank God, this is a very blanket statement, and there are exceptions to this rule, but I would say about 70% of the families I visited were in this category.
Does that mean we need breders like this? NO! There are plenty of rescues that can fit the bill, GSDs and other breeds as well, and maybe if less of these look-alikes were out there, people would know that it is NOT realistic to expect a GSD to be sg which it shouldn't be.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I appreciate all of your kind words and welcoming spirit. I think if you study the pedigress of my dogs, you will see that they are in fact 100% German shepherds - not the German shepherds that most of you recognize but nonetheless German shepherds. I pray that none of you ever have a child that is 7 feet tall because they would not be classified as real and definately do not fit within the standard. You really can't control mother nature, no matter how hard you try. And last time I looked, we operate in a free market - one that allows a supplier to charge what the market is willing to pay. I now have a better understanding of why so many dog lovers have no use for the AKC and other restrictive clubs. It's funny that white German shepherds are outcast when in fact, some of the original dogs were white. May you all find some sort of peace in your journey.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Nice try.

There is a world of difference between having a child, and _purposely_ breeding oversized dogs and then keeping them fat so you can brag about their weight, and then make up some typo-ridden story of how these are the "real" dogs of yesteryear.

Nobody here expects you to change your views on the subject, and you are quite entitled to them, but you have done many people a real favor by coming on the board, so that members can read these posts and learn just what a GSD is supposed to be, why oversized dogs are not good, and it will help them be more discriminating in the future when it comes to choosing a good, ethical breeder that truly cares about the breed, vs. a glorified back-yard breeder who only cares about money. 

And I can see that making money off your dogs is your only motivation for breeding, as you defend the "demand" for these dogs as your rationalization for breeding them (i.e: as long as people are willing to pay me big bucks for these dogs, I will continue breeding them).

Thank you for letting people see your true colours!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: DocI am particularly interested in some the lines of the mid to late 60's - dogs that were used both for show and work. An "all purpose" German shepherd if you will. It is a shame to think that now-a-days a dog can not do both. A pitty really.


So you mean like these dogs?


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Daphne, Highlines don't stand like that









Highlines that can work all day, look like this at stand.










Look at the standard picture


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I'm going to close this one now before it can turn into a bash fest or yet another nasty highline vs American line vs working line vs whatever debate.

The original topic of the thread was already discussed quite a while ago, and I'm not sure why Doc chose to resurrect this thread rather than make his own, but if he'd like to further discuss his breeding program or the breeding of oversized dogs further he can crate new threads to do so.


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