# Wolf vs dog, what will happen?



## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

I read this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/723434-can-coyote-kill-grown-gsd.html
There isn’t coyote in Norway where I live, but we have wolves. Every year several dogs has been killed by wolves here, mostly hunting dogs who are running out on their own. The wolves eats the dogs they kill, so I don’t know if they hunts the dog, or it start with a fight. I read what *tim_s_adams* wrote in the «coyote thread», and wondering if your dogs have met wolf face to face? It would have been interesting to hear about your experience in such meetings. Is there conflict between humans and wolves, or livestock and wolves where you live?

I have a SAR dog and train a lot with him loose in areas where there are wolves, but have never had any problem. If the wolf felt threatened and attack, the dog would not stand a chance, but I think it prefer not to go in the conflict. I’m more worried to meet a grumpy moose than a wolf. 

Wolf is a hot topic in Norway, and many make a very big problem because wolves are in Norwegian nature. Best way to get enemies is to discuss why you're for or against wolves in Norway. Many people in Norway fear wolves, and they think the wolf is just waiting to eat them, but still it’s really rare to observe one, if it’s not shot dead by a idiot.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

In Oregon wolves have strayed in from Idaho and the Yellowstone Natl Park, where they were released from wolves brought from Canada. Now Oregon has about 120 wolves. Some are radio collared so they can be tracked using GPS for location. (*** Removed by ADMIN ***). Yet the wolves do attack and kill cattle and sheep. The rancher must use fladdery, 'flags tied on bushes and fences' to repel wolves from the livestock they have been killing. Only if the wolves are caught in the act of killing can they be shot. The government pays for the dead cattle but not nearly what they are worth in a cow/calf operation. Needless to say the rural people are not too happy about this. Four wolves have been found shot this year and another shot while moving in to attack a hunter. Personally, if I saw a wolf even looking at my animals or my dog I would shoot, shovel and shut up. If collared, throw that collar in the ocean.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> In Oregon wolves have strayed in from Idaho and the Yellowstone Natl Park, where they were released from wolves brought from Canada. Now Oregon has about 120 wolves. Some are radio collared so they can be tracked using GPS for location. (*** Removed by ADMIN ***. Yet the wolves do attack and kill cattle and sheep. The rancher must use fladdery, 'flags tied on bushes and fences' to repel wolves from the livestock they have been killing. Only if the wolves are caught in the act of killing can they be shot. The government pays for the dead cattle but not nearly what they are worth in a cow/calf operation. Needless to say the rural people are not too happy about this. Four wolves have been found shot this year and another shot while moving in to attack a hunter. Personally, if I saw a wolf even looking at my animals or my dog I would shoot, shovel and shut up. If collared, throw that collar in the ocean.


But, I thought reintroducing wolves into yellow stone saved the park, maybe the planet.




 So you think that like the video says about the elk being kept in check. Humans need to keep the wolves in check. Like we do with deer? This may keep them from overflowing into neighboring areas.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

In a wild country situation that is fine. When they come in where humans are it can go sideways. Shall we bring the Grizzly bear back to California?


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## Kibs (Oct 25, 2017)

I don't think Wolves attacking Cattle has to do with their population being too high. 120 is an incredibly low number. I think it has to do with whatever is driving them to hunt cattle etc. Maybe there isn't enough wildlife left, or maybe the cattle are just too easy prey. Farmers need to learn how to live alongside wildlife and eliminating the predator is never the solution. Wolves play a pretty big part in the health of our eco system (as the Yellowstone video shows).

If we want our planet to thrive then farmer's must accept that maybe they need a better fence to keep wolves out.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Most wolves will keep their distance. I've seen them on hikes and had them move parallel to the trail we were on. My kids, dogs and I had one follow up behind us very closely. We were walking in a creek and it was on the bank. We only discovered it was there after turning around to head back and heard it growl. My dogs had no clue though I must say I didn't pay them that much attention at that moment. The breeze was coming at us and the sound of the rushing water may have kept it concealed to us and the dogs. 

I believe it was curious and when we turned around we caught it by surprise. We just held our ground standing in the creek, it growled again and left in a hurry. I suspect if we didn't bring the dogs we may not have seen them at all. We know they are there, they leave their "calling cards" along many of the trails we hike.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

I understand it is the same disagreement at your place as it is in Norway.
There is no definitive answer to this, for both sides have reasonable arguments. I'm glad we have wolves in Norway, and eradicate all predators is not a solution, although there are many here in Norway think the only solution.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

as long as humans continue to take away the natural hunting grounds of predators, and build houses within those areas, they should not be surprised by predators attacking their animals. I get pretty upset when all the people that live in those areas gripe about the predators and want them exterminated. Sorry. Favorite rant of mine...


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## Kibs (Oct 25, 2017)

HHH said:


> I understand it is the same disagreement at your place as it is in Norway.
> There is no definitive answer to this, for both sides have reasonable arguments. I'm glad we have wolves in Norway, and eradicate all predators is not a solution, although there are many here in Norway think the only solution.


I very much agree. Its hard to find a solution that's fair to both parties, but it should be through a way that allows both of them to continue you living.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Wolves in Oregon are in the next county to the east. They can kill my milk cow, her calf, my miniature horse, my GSD and my chickens. I will not going to go hunting for wolves, but I will shoot shovel and shut up if any wolf threatens my livestock.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

I have worked in agriculture in Norway, so I’ve worked with sheep and cattle. The sheep haven’t any natural survivability left. It has been bred away all natural instincts and physics, to provide the most wool and meat. They are easy prey, and many farmers let them out in the wild for the summer, unattended. Most sheep that die during the summer dies of illness, injury, ticks and more, yet it is only a small percentage caused by predators.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Shoot shovel and shut up but expect a visit from wildlife conservation officers because a good number of those wildlife tracking collars are GPS real-time trackers, and they'll know where the last live signal ended. If it's on your land, you'll have some questions to answer. 

LGDs are a good solution to wolf predation- they have proven very effective deterrents. Cattle and sheep graze on public lands (BLM, Forest Service) for a pittance per head. I'd like to see a balance struck between ranchers/farmers and wildlife. Many ranchers I've interacted with are very much in favor of maintaining biodiversity and are a wildlife biologist's biggest allies because they know the land and their livelihood is tied to it. Simply killing a wolf on sight is not the answer. 

I have seen a few wolves out in their natural habitat. I watched a black-phase mother wolf play with her grey wolf cub from high on a mountainside one day. One of my favorite memories. 

I was skiing and a huge wolf followed my tracks, her prints were enormous. I could see her coming up behind me and my dogs and was hoping she'd turn right at the intersection, which she did. That was exciting.

I saw a wolf right across a creek when I was running. He just looked at us and went on his way. 

I saw a silhouette of a wolf far up a mountain valley when I was out for a long day run with my dogs. He stood for a moment against the skyline and disappeared. I never saw him again. 

And I've seen coy-wolves, every bit as large as GSD out on the East coast. Beautiful animals, and always respectful of my pack. Dogs didn't seem to care, very civil interactions. 

I also saw wolf tracks east of the Cascades in Washington State. A pair had traveled through in the fresh snow (Methow). 

Respect the wolf as a powerful predator, but learn how to live with them, keep your dog in sight and under control, and you should be fine. I've traveled in wolf, moose, and bear country frequently. Moose have caused me the most trouble, they are aggressive, huge, and unpredictable. And they seem to get angry just at the sight of a dog at times and come barreling out of the forest in a rage... scary stuff!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Personally I think we need to keep in mind which one is the interloper here. I have spent a fair bit of time in my youth in areas where wolves live. I have had the incredible opportunity to observe them from a distance.
Most often when wolves turn to livestock it is due to either depleted game or depleted pack numbers. 
I dealt with the cattle ranchers in Montana who seemed to think grazing cattle on crown land was their right. Cattle cause damage to grasslands and push out natural wildlife. 
As someone who grew up on a small family farm, it is inconceivable to me that any rancher running a thousand head tries to claim all calf loses are to predation and none are lost to disease, the weather or natural causes.
I am also not simple enough to believe that a lone young female could bring down a full grown cow. 
I have never been bothered by a wolf in the bush. They may watch but they sure don't crave interaction. The only dogs I have seen killed were the ones that went looking for trouble. But I did see a few that looked like dogs running with packs.
I crossed a wolf on a trail in the pre dawn hours. It sat calm as could be and checked me out before doing that vanishing act that they are so adept at. There and then gone. I felt not the least threatened and was thankful for the moment.
Coyotes are much more brazen and have learned to thrive in urban settings. They are much more opportunistic, and sadly domestic animals often serve as dinner. But again, who's the interloper?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My dog interacted on only 2 occasions with a lone wolf, once in Oregon and the other time in Idaho. These were the only times I can say for sure because I saw it with my own eyes. On both occasions it was friendly enough, once they played a little, the other time it was more of a brief meet-and-greet-and-go kind of situation. But there were a handful of other times when I can't say for sure what the animal was, could have been a wolf, or it could have been one of those coyote crosses, with with a wolf or a dog, who knows. All I know was the animal in question was much larger than a coyote is generally. My brother owned a timberwolf cross that was mostly wolf, and his dog and mine played together frequently. That dog could easily have killed my 90 lb GSD though, or a human being as well, without a doubt if he'd wanted to. At 1 yr old that wolf was so large that when he jumped up on my 6' 3" brother his paws were on my brother's shoulders, and his head was above him. At 2+ yrs of age his wolf wandered into a neighbor's pasture and killed 5 sheep in one afternoon, and was put down by the rancher.

At any rate, I think there's very little understanding in general about how wild animals differ from domestic animals. Wild animals know things, they are extremely perceptive and in tune with everything around them. As some previous posters mentioned, typically a wolf will just observe, not fearfully but not menacingly either. They are curious, and have been known to follow hikers often, but are not known for being aggressive to humans or even livestock for that matter unless sick or injured. I knew a girl whose dad had cattle ranch in upper Minnesota, and he had wolves in his fields with his cattle frequently, but never lost any to wolf predation. As the OP (original poster) mentioned about Norway, people here are also usually either for or against wolves in general, and usually those positions are fervent in nature. So yeah, I would expect there are many cases where another animal kills a calf or a sheep, then wolves feed on the carcass and are incorrectly blamed for the kill. There are not likely many cases where wolves have killed livestock of any kind, that are then blamed on other predators, of course that's just my opinion, I don't have any data to back up. But when wild wolves make a kill they tend to stay with it until the food is gone. And as Sabis mom mentioned, ranchers get reimbursed for wolf predation, not for illness or weather, or in many cases for domestic animal predation, so yeah, blame it on those evil wolves...

My own feeling is that both coyotes and wolves can be dangerous given the wrong set of circumstances. But I also stand in awe of their discernment and intelligence. As I mentioned in that other thread, in one week's time one year while hunting deer I came across a coyote and a miniature poodle caught in steel jawed traps. The coyote we found after dark. He had a front foot caught in a double spring trap, and from thrashing around had gotten wrapped up in the wire securing the trap to the base of a tree. We noticed him because his eyes showed up in our headlights as we were returning after an evening hunt, and he jumped hard as we approached such that his eyes could be seen going from about 2 feet off the ground to 5 or 6 ft, then plummeting back to the ground. It was an odd sight so we grabbed flashlights and went to investigate. Seeing what it was, I went back to the truck and grabbed a towel, which we slipped over his muzzle to keep him from biting us. Laying there, he allowed us to slip the towel around his muzzle and secure it in back of his head - without a struggle or a growl. Once we secured the towel two of us picked him up while we depressed the springs on the trap and freed his leg, he remained limp the whole time. We then had to roll him twice in the air to free him from the wire, and only then, once completely free did he start to wiggle a bit, but he never did growl. We set him down, let the towel lose and he hopped away. The poodle on the other hand, we found just before dark, quite a ways back in the woods. He wouldn't let us even get close to him with biting and snapping, so we had to wrap him up in a leather jacket to free his foot from a similar trap. Once freed was as sweet as you'd expect. Stark difference!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> Personally I think we need to keep in mind which one is the interloper here. I have spent a fair bit of time in my youth in areas where wolves live. I have had the incredible opportunity to observe them from a distance.
> Most often when wolves turn to livestock it is due to either depleted game or depleted pack numbers.
> I dealt with the cattle ranchers in Montana who seemed to think grazing cattle on crown land was their right. Cattle cause damage to grasslands and push out natural wildlife.
> As someone who grew up on a small family farm, it is inconceivable to me that any rancher running a thousand head tries to claim all calf loses are to predation and none are lost to disease, the weather or natural causes.
> ...


Actually properly stocked cattle are good for grasslands as well as the fact that they are grazers vs. browsers. So elk and cattle compete but not so much with deer or antelope. I've seen plenty of deer chilling right next to cattle. It's really neat to look into things like that if I wasn't going vet I'd maybe be range management, but that's kind of offtopic. Definitely agree with you a lone female wolf isn't going to take down a healthy cow, but would go after calves or other livestock such as sheep. Had a young male lone wolf come onto my Uncle's place and had a hay day killing sheep. Several ewes and lambs at once, was seen while doing it and shot. That's the main problem in that yes you get livestock deaths in ways other than predation, but when predation does happen it's generally in high numbers that will increase if you don't put a stop to it. 

As far as dog vs. wolf goes it's highly going to depend on the dogs and number of wolves. This was about a year ago but I remember seeing a post about 2 dogs getting killed and 1 injured by a few wolves. I know flock dogs are very successful at keeping them away from stock, kill or chase off coyotes couldn't say for sure on wolves but I know at least chase off and heard I've of them killing wolves. As far as normal every day house dogs I'd say they probably wouldn't have much of a chance against a wolf but I've never heard of wolves luring dogs to kill them like I have with coyotes. There is a video of a wolf coming into a yard with a chained dog and killing it but I'd imagine a sick or older wolf going after easier prey for that? 
I have heard coy wolves are especially aggressive so I'd imagine they could be a problem. 

Overall I think from wolves you'd be pretty safe.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Shoot shovel and shut up but expect a visit from wildlife conservation officers because a good number of those wildlife tracking collars are GPS real-time trackers, and they'll know where the last live signal ended. If it's on your land, you'll have some questions to answer.
> 
> LGDs are a good solution to wolf predation- they have proven very effective deterrents. Cattle and sheep graze on public lands (BLM, Forest Service) for a pittance per head. I'd like to see a balance struck between ranchers/farmers and wildlife. Many ranchers I've interacted with are very much in favor of maintaining biodiversity and are a wildlife biologist's biggest allies because they know the land and their livelihood is tied to it. Simply killing a wolf on sight is not the answer.
> 
> ...


 Wolves kill Oregon sheep, injure protection dogs - Oregon - Capital Press
Wolves? Economic Bite On Cattle Goes Way Beyond Predation | Beef Magazine

A lone wolf is not going to attack your group of Germman Shepherds.

If the authorities visited me after I shot a wolf on my land attacking my animals I could legally have shot that wolf in Oregon. 

They come looking for a GPS collar wolf when the collar stops moving. When thrown in the ocean it is still moving. Yes wolves are beautiful and they keep down the wildlife population in Yellowstone. Unfortunately they did not stay in Yellowstone. What will it take? A death of a person? A child?


Victim(s)	Age	Gender	Date	Type of attack	Location	Details	Source(s)
Candice Berner	32	female	8 March 2010	Predatory	Chignik, Alaska, US, 75 miles southwest of Kodiak	Berner, a teacher and avid jogger, was discovered dead along a road by snowmobilers, who found wolf tracks in the adjacent snow. The Alaska State Medical Examiner ruled that her death was caused by "multiple injuries due to animal mauling." A series of necropsies performed on wolves culled in the surrounding area shortly after the attack ruled out rabies, sickness, or wolf-dog hybridisation as being causes of the attack. The verified case was notable as being the first recorded fatal wolf attack in Alaska in which DNA evidence was gathered to confirm wolf involvement.	Findings, Alaska Department of Fish and Game [1]

Here wolves came after a human in Oregon, fortunately he was armed.
https://kobi5.com/news/oregon-hunter-shoots-wolf-killed-self-defense-64135/


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

It is a big difference to feel threatened by something and really be in danger. Statistics show that about 20 people every year are killed by cattle in US, and about 58 people are killed each year by bees, wasps and bumblebees. Horses, dogs, moose, deer -all kills several people every year, but no one has demonstrably been killed by wolves!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Wolves kill Oregon sheep, injure protection dogs - Oregon - Capital Press
> Wolves? Economic Bite On Cattle Goes Way Beyond Predation | Beef Magazine
> 
> A lone wolf is not going to attack your group of Germman Shepherds.
> ...


This makes me angry. The attack in Alaska was determined to be an animal mauling. Signs of wolves were found nearby.
NO definitive proof that wolves were responsible.
The incident in Oregon was NOT an attack. Wolves are curious and have been known to get quite close. Twenty yards is a long ways away. The one I encountered up close was about twenty feet!

In spite of all the media crap, speculation and fear mongering I know of only ONE case in North America were healthy, adult wolves were deemed to have killed a human! And at that no one could positively say what happened, just that wolves were there.
More people are killed by turkey fryers.
Wolves and dogs. Yes they have killed dogs, dogs who went after them. Dogs harassing them.
Wolves killing livestock. Stop moving into the wild country to enjoy nature and taking your sheep.

If we were as diligent at controlling the human population as we are at controlling the wildlife population this wouldn't be an issue.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Interesting stats from https://www.livingwithwolves.org/about-wolves/tackling-the-myths/


Over the past 100 years in North America, there have been only two cases in which wild wolves reportedly killed a human being. To put this statistic in context, also in North America, bears have killed at least 40 people since 2000, and, since 1990, cougars have killed nine. In the United States, domestic dogs kill approximately 30 people every year.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

HHH said:


> It is a big difference to feel threatened by something and really be in danger. Statistics show that about 20 people every year are killed by cattle in US, and about 58 people are killed each year by bees, wasps and bumblebees. Horses, dogs, moose, deer -all kills several people every year, but no one has demonstrably been killed by wolves!


 Why, yes, someone was killed by wolves in the US just 7 years ago.

Victim(s)	Age	Gender	Date	Type of attack	Location	Details	Source(s)
Candice Berner	32	female	8 March 2010	Predatory	Chignik, Alaska, US, 75 miles southwest of Kodiak	Berner, a teacher and avid jogger, was discovered dead along a road by snowmobilers, who found wolf tracks in the adjacent snow. The Alaska State Medical Examiner ruled that her death was caused by "multiple injuries due to animal mauling." A series of necropsies performed on wolves culled in the surrounding area shortly after the attack ruled out rabies, sickness, or wolf-dog hybridisation as being causes of the attack. The verified case was notable as being the first recorded fatal wolf attack in Alaska in which DNA evidence was gathered to confirm wolf involvement.	Findings, Alaska Department of Fish and Game [1]


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> This makes me angry. The attack in Alaska was determined to be an animal mauling. Signs of wolves were found nearby.
> NO definitive proof that wolves were responsible.
> The incident in Oregon was NOT an attack. Wolves are curious and have been known to get quite close. Twenty yards is a long ways away. The one I encountered up close was about twenty feet!
> 
> ...


 Please read it again. DNA evidence proved the woman was killed by wolves.

Victim(s)	Age	Gender	Date	Type of attack	Location	Details	Source(s)
Candice Berner	32	female	8 March 2010	Predatory	Chignik, Alaska, US, 75 miles southwest of Kodiak	Berner, a teacher and avid jogger, was discovered dead along a road by snowmobilers, who found wolf tracks in the adjacent snow. The Alaska State Medical Examiner ruled that her death was caused by "multiple injuries due to animal mauling." A series of necropsies performed on wolves culled in the surrounding area shortly after the attack ruled out rabies, sickness, or wolf-dog hybridisation as being causes of the attack. The verified case was notable as being the first recorded fatal wolf attack in Alaska in which DNA evidence was gathered to confirm wolf involvement.	Findings, Alaska Department of Fish and Game [1]

Oregon Fish and Wildlife determined it was a case of self defense and no charges were filed.

from https://www.gohunt.com/read/news/oregon-hunter-shoots-wolf-in-self-defense#gs.CRhwAsc

State law makes it illegal to kill a wolf “except in defense of human life (and in certain instances involving wolf depredation of livestock),” ODFW reports. The hunter will not be charged as it was determined by the Union County District Attorney’s Office that he did actually shoot the animal in self-defense. This is the first time since the late 1990s that a wolf has died this way.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Please read it again. DNA evidence proved the woman was killed by wolves.
> 
> Victim(s)	Age	Gender	Date	Type of attack	Location	Details	Source(s)
> Candice Berner	32	female	8 March 2010	Predatory	Chignik, Alaska, US, 75 miles southwest of Kodiak	Berner, a teacher and avid jogger, was discovered dead along a road by snowmobilers, who found wolf tracks in the adjacent snow. The Alaska State Medical Examiner ruled that her death was caused by "multiple injuries due to animal mauling." A series of necropsies performed on wolves culled in the surrounding area shortly after the attack ruled out rabies, sickness, or wolf-dog hybridisation as being causes of the attack. The verified case was notable as being the first recorded fatal wolf attack in Alaska in which DNA evidence was gathered to confirm wolf involvement.	Findings, Alaska Department of Fish and Game [1]
> ...


Wolf involvement, not caused by wolves. This was pretty widely debated and the documentary done about this case spoke to the fact that wolf DNA was found on the carcass. The medical examiner was very clear that this person died of injuries caused by *undetermined* animal mauling. And notably, declined to define said animal.
Even so, TWO supposed killings in 100 years. Your dog is statistically more dangerous.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Wolf DNA was found on the woman's body. A human body is not a "carcass" by the way.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

NB, keep fear mongering if it makes you feel better. 
Rabid animals do not behave normally
Captive animals do not behave normally

Throughout history wolves have been feared and vilified in stories and myths. It makes it easy for them to become scapegoats. The fact remains that most supposed wolf attacks were never documented and upon investigation fell apart. 

Personally I couldn't care less if the wolves organize and arm themselves to hunt us to the brink of extinction, as we have done to them. 
Wolves hunt for food. Humans hunt for greed and pleasure. I routinely hike, unarmed since I am Canadian. I have hitch hiked coast to coast, as well as all but a few states, I have worked in Alberta and British Columbia up north, as well as in the Nahanni area. I worked on massive cattle ranches in Wyoming and Montana, I have slept on the ground, in the woods, unprotected and tracked and observed wolves in all their natural splendor. I have NEVER been bothered. I found evidence that wolves hung out and watched me in camp, I have known that they followed me. 
I had a beautiful photo of a young female picking berries.
Bears worry me, Moose terrify me-those beasts are nasty and irrational-cats concern me. Wolves not at all.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The case in Alaska... I feel for the victim and her family, but even if it was wolves (not hypothermia or injury and then scavenge), only a cheechako goes out running in extreme rural Alaska, alone, near dusk (it's always dusk in winter), without protection of some kind- at minimum a dog, but really you should be carrying bear spray and a gun. People who haven't been there maybe can't grasp how very remote this area is- you can't get there via the road system. There is the village, and a road or two that ends in the town dump or airport, and that is it- you are surrounded by ocean, boggy forests and glacial mountains that are impassible in the summers and only passable in winter via snowmobile or dogsled. Chignik is way out there, you don't just go for a jog. 

Wolves are wild animals, it is certainly makes sense to take precautions. But the number of attacks are extremely low, so low that most people need not even consider wolf attack as a risk- you are probably more likely to be attacked by an alligator or even a cougar.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Wolf DNA was found on the woman's body. A human body is not a "carcass" by the way.


car·cass (kär′kəs)
n.
1. The dead body of an animal, especially one slaughtered for food.
*2. The body of a human.
*3. Remains from which the substance or character is gone: the carcass of a former empire.
4. A framework or basic structure: the carcass of a burned-out house.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

A carcass is a deeply disrespectful term to use for the body of a human being. 

All are welcome to their opinions. Because I actually have livestock and property one county over from where wolf packs are known to exist, I have an action plan. If wolves attack my livestock I will legally defend according to Phase 3 of the Oregon Wolf Plan.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> A carcass is a deeply disrespectful term to use for the body of a human being.
> 
> All are welcome to their opinions. Because I actually have livestock and property one county over from where wolf packs are known to exist, I have an action plan. If wolves attack my livestock I will legally defend according to Phase 3 of the Oregon Wolf Plan.


Pave paradise and put up a parking lot.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

(I'm sorry if what I write has several grammar and spell fault. I'm not so familiar with writing in English, but this is an interesting discussion so I go for it)
There is a big difference to defend their animals by direct attacks and to shoot on sight as many does. No one would stand still and see when their livestock are getting killed, but a lot of people has a way more extreme attitude than just to defend.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> All are welcome to their opinions. Because I actually have livestock and property one county over from where wolf packs are known to exist, I have an action plan. If wolves attack my livestock I will legally defend according to Phase 3 of the Oregon Wolf Plan.


I'm curious, how long have you lived there and had livestock without losing any to wolf predation? Have you lost any to coyotes? That same website has a page that broke down recorded livestock predation by predator, wolves was 1%, coyotes was ~26%, and dogs was ~7%.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> The case in Alaska... I feel for the victim and her family, but even if it was wolves (not hypothermia or injury and then scavenge), only a cheechako goes out running in extreme rural Alaska, alone, near dusk (it's always dusk in winter), without protection of some kind- at minimum a dog, but really you should be carrying bear spray and a gun. People who haven't been there maybe can't grasp how very remote this area is- you can't get there via the road system. There is the village, and a road or two that ends in the town dump or airport, and that is it- you are surrounded by ocean, boggy forests and glacial mountains that are impassible in the summers and only passable in winter via snowmobile or dogsled. Chignik is way out there, you don't just go for a jog.
> 
> *Wolves are wild animals, it is certainly makes sense to take precautions. But the number of attacks are extremely low, so low that most people need not even consider wolf attack as a risk- you are probably more likely to be attacked by an alligator or even a cougar.*


I'm in favor of wolves, I'm happy to have them return to some of their former range. I agree that there are more likely threats to be concerned with, however I'm not dismissive of their potential. Many animals will be curious, but anything beyond a brief encounter would have me suspicious of their intent. Fatalities are not the only measure of risk, I'm averse to being mauled as well as killed, lol That said, they are a very small risk of venturing into the back country. Slipping on a rock or falling tree branches can take you out as well. :smile2:


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

When you look at the whole picture, wolves are necessary. People don't look at the whole picture and think past the end of their nose.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> Shoot shovel and shut up but expect a visit from wildlife conservation officers because a good number of those wildlife tracking collars are GPS real-time trackers, and they'll know where the last live signal ended. If it's on your land, you'll have some questions to answer.
> 
> LGDs are a good solution to wolf predation- they have proven very effective deterrents. Cattle and sheep graze on public lands (BLM, Forest Service) for a pittance per head. I'd like to see a balance struck between ranchers/farmers and wildlife. Many ranchers I've interacted with are very much in favor of maintaining biodiversity and are a wildlife biologist's biggest allies because they know the land and their livelihood is tied to it. Simply killing a wolf on sight is not the answer.
> 
> ...


I have been in a position to lose livestock that were not *just* livestock...they were dairy goats and they had names and were very tame and most more like pets than livestock. I was very fond of them. Very much did not want them to die. We also had quite a lot of chickens which of course are prey to almost everything.

I went to an enormous amount of trouble with night penning and protection pens. The biggest goat killers were actually gators and bobcats-- I think I have told you guys my theory that the FL bobcats are interbreeding with what's left of the panthers because there are some bobcats roaming around that are as tall as my GSD and real ones just aren't that big.

But anyway...I really see both sides. I love wildlife, I love nature, I am a conservationist at heart. But raising livestock really makes you see another side of it. The only time we practiced shoot shovel and shut up was with big gators, but they are NOT endangered. And unfortunately no real way to prevent them getting on your property either, as they both climb and crawl under fencing. 

If I had had panthers attacking my goats I would have gone to great lengths to protect the goats without hurting the panthers. They will even finance and help build you a panther pen if they are after your livestock because they are so critically endangered. I have friends who lose goats to panthers (or they think they do...it might be mistaken identity with the big bob cats because they LOVE goats), but they do not have barns and I did. All my goats were in the barn or in an electric night pen by dusk.

It was expensive to keep the goats the way I did because of bedding and hay. I was on the verge of getting into LGDs and keeping them on pasture, when we got out of it altogether. I think LGDs are really the solution for most people. And there have been some farmers having really good luck with llamas with sheep.

I try not to take unnecessary risks with my dogs to put them in a position to be in conflict with dangerous wildlife.

I felt TERRIBLE when I had to kill a pair of rat snakes in my barn. They were big snakes-- and they were stealing every egg our hens laid. I chased them out of the coop over and over and days and days of no eggs. One day I found the two of them in the nest boxes, stuffed with eggs, mating. I had had it, and I killed them both. They were so full of eggs that yolk just streamed out of them when I lopped their heads off.

I wish they would have just eaten rats in the barn and I never would have bothered them. But I was feeding super expensive organic layer feed and not getting a single egg out of our huge flock!! I don't know how far you have to take a snake that it won't return, I guess I didn't consider trying to relocate them instead of killing them. They had also stolen a whole clutch of fertile eggs out from under a broody hen. She was in a dog crate covered in chicken wire so I think the only thing that could have stolen all her eggs was snakes. After that I put her in a hutch with cage wire and she brooded successfully and never had her eggs stolen again.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

If you’re interested in wolves, the movie, Never Cry Wolf is excellent. 
Brian Dennehey/pilot.
Charles Martin Smith/Researcher. Sent to Canada arctic to find out if the wolves are killing off caribou population. 

Old movie. Early 80s
Some really funny parts and some sad parts too. 
My grandsons, 13 and 9 loved it.

I think anyone who posted here would enjoy it.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Findlay said:


> If you’re interested in wolves, the movie, Never Cry Wolf is excellent.
> Brian Dennehey/pilot.
> Charles Martin Smith/Researcher. Sent to Canada arctic to find out if the wolves are killing off caribou population.
> 
> ...


I remember that movie!Remember the mice?Gross but funny


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have been in a position to lose livestock that were not *just* livestock...they were dairy goats and they had names and were very tame and most more like pets than livestock. I was very fond of them. Very much did not want them to die. We also had quite a lot of chickens which of course are prey to almost everything.
> 
> I went to an enormous amount of trouble with night penning and protection pens. The biggest goat killers were actually gators and bobcats-- I think I have told you guys my theory that the FL bobcats are interbreeding with what's left of the panthers because there are some bobcats roaming around that are as tall as my GSD and real ones just aren't that big.
> 
> ...


I totally understand your plight...and, sorry, but had to LOL at your struggle. Darn snakes! But here's the thing, protecting your stock - be it sheep, cattle, goats, rabbits, chickens, ducks or any other should never cause you any internal conflict...of course you're going to, and of course you should be able to, whatever that involves. 

But take time to consider the bigger picture, and you'll hopefully see that all of these creatures have not only a historical place, they're crucial to our survival...each being an important link in the chain...

PS: feel free to kill any and all snakes that take up residence in your chicken coop. > without remorse!


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

I had a long conversation with a government biologist several years ago about mountain caribou. They are considered an endangered species. Though habitat loss and vehicle accidents are the major reason for their decline, predators have also been blamed. Since people don't want to deal with the issues of habitat loss (that means money to logging, mining and real estate companies); the focus is on predators. Although mountain lions and bears also prey on them, the wolves have been specifically targeted because they are easier to hunt from helicopters. Helicopters will identify a pack and follow them all the way to their den, then wipe out the whole pack. Since mountain lions and bears are solitary hunters you can not use that technique on them. Killing wolves gives a higher predator body count and the illusion of tax money being well spent.

Ironically, the same reason that wolves became dogs was their social nature and pack life's similarity to human groups in the hunter/gatherer era. Hence, the dog which is almost 100% genetically identical to the wolf, became the first domestic animal by thousands of years ahead of any other and the one animal most genetically altered by humans in morphology. The wolf has long been disproportionately ostracized and villified in human culture throughout history and there seems to be a paranoia induced in many people completely at odds with the data. Your odds of being attacked by a bear or a mountain lion in North American forests are thousands of times higher than being attacked by a wolf. In fact, the odds of being struck by lightning or falling off a cliff or drowning in a river are higher.

One theory is that wolves competed with human hunter/gatherers in the same ecological niche since millenia hence the outsized paranoia. After the human, the wolf is the most intelligent social hunter in the northern forests. Some people argue that of all mammals on earth, it has been the wolf that has adapted to the survival of its DNA the most successfully. By coming into your home and is now lying by your feet - your dog.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

> Respect the wolf as a powerful predator, but learn how to live with them, keep your dog in sight and under control, and you should be fine.


Yep.

I just got home from a snowshoe/backcountry camping trip across NFS land with an established wolf population. My friend had last minute car trouble so I spent the first two days alone, she joined me on days 3-4. I had one of my GSDs with me, my friend brought her retired racer (husky).

We have been winter camping, with our dogs, as solitary females, across wolf territory, for over a decade, without bodily harm or issue. 

Respect wild predators for what they are, don't expect Alien vs Predator nonsense.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> I totally understand your plight...and, sorry, but had to LOL at your struggle. Darn snakes! But here's the thing, protecting your stock - be it sheep, cattle, goats, rabbits, chickens, ducks or any other should never cause you any internal conflict...of course you're going to, and of course you should be able to, whatever that involves.
> 
> But take time to consider the bigger picture, and you'll hopefully see that all of these creatures have not only a historical place, they're crucial to our survival...each being an important link in the chain...
> 
> PS: feel free to kill any and all snakes that take up residence in your chicken coop. > without remorse!


So probably the single biggest threat to my goats right off the bat was all the free roaming dogs. Of course, being who I am, shooting a dog isn't high on my to do list. We were able to shut down what I called the stray dog highway with better fencing and I never had that issue.

I had a bear trying to get at my goats one night, there were claw marks all over the wooden stall wall...scary. I guess they smell the milk and they kill them to eat the udders. My bottom line was, I really didn't want to kill anything-- so I super enforced my barn. It was an open air barn with probably 5' high wooden walls. I hot wired the top and bottom of the walls so nothing could climb over or dig under. Apparently it's a good thing that I did. I even put fencing in the top gap of some of the stalls that I used for kidding. I had a few kidding stalls that were like alcatraz because the kids are so tiny and helpless. I saw my DOG'S reaction to the sound of their little voices and I am sure all predators within earshot had the same reaction. When the does kidded if they did not eat all the leftovers I would immediately burn or bury afterbirth and bloody bedding (away from the barn), because i was sure that smell would attract all sorts of things. 

I had one kidding stall with an attached outside pen that I completely wrapped in fencing, even from the top so no birds of prey could come down, and IT was hotwired so nothing could try to force its way in. That's where new moms stayed with their babies for a few days and when the babies were a little older I'd start letting them play in the barnyard while I did chores and gradually put them back on pasture. I started momma hen with chicks in that stall too, so the chicks wouldn't be picked off by hawks before they got good at running for cover when she warned them.

I kept some goats outside in Premier electric pens, I got the 6' high electric deer fence for night pens and nothing ever got in them. 

All these efforts meant I was basically the only person raising goats and not losing them to bobcats and panthers. Everybody else I knew had major losses. And then they'd be out trying to trap or shoot them.

I had a plan about the gators too: we just hadn't had time to finish it. I was fencing off around each pond. It wouldn't keep the gators out but if the goats couldn't go to the water's edge they were much safer because that's where the gators strike.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

https://www.livingwithwolves.org/about-wolves/why-wolves-matter/


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

https://medium.com/wild-without-end...-fiscal-year-2018-spending-bills-6ca818f0143d


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> https://medium.com/wild-without-end...-fiscal-year-2018-spending-bills-6ca818f0143d


It _is_ a hot topic in some northern areas around the Great Lakes right now. "Save Wildlife, Shoot a Wolf" bumper stickers are becoming a thing.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Thecowboysgirl 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=7Qp_bUYPrTg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=7Qp_bUYPrTg


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The interesting thing is how incredibly well a close relative- the coy wolf, is doing right in the busiest cities and suburbs of the east coast. Very cryptic critters, and thriving compared to the wolf. Something in their evolutionary make-up means they are able to co-exist with people, pretty impressive adaptation for a large predator.

There's a strong link between loss of large predators - wolves, cougars- and the rise of tick diseases. Foxes are driven out, and killed by the smaller coyote/coy-wolf. Wolves, on the other hand, kill and drive out coyotes, but co-exist nicely with foxes. Foxes are an important predator of the small rodents that harbor tick disease, and on which ticks feed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3390851/

So by eliminating the wolf, deadly and devastating tick illnesses are on the rise. Personally, I've had three dogs get really sick- one almost died- from tick illnesses. I also personally got sick from a tick disease (RMSF), and a family member was hospitalized with Lyme. In contrast, none of my dogs or family members have been injured by a large predator. A dog was injured by a moose. 

I think it's important to point out the importance of wolves, with the hope that we can change some people's view of them. But it's a real uphill battle. Logic doesn't work, emotion rules.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc said:


> @Thecowboysgirl
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=7Qp_bUYPrTg
> 
> ...




yep..they climb over and push under to go wherever they want to go. and we lived right at the edge of a 3000 acre preserve that was of course a lot of swampland so the big ones didn't have to travel far to stumble into our ponds. 

You wouldn't think they'd be such good climbers but all you have to do is notice how many are in the fenced off retention ponds everywhere to know they can and do


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Not that you haven't heard me say this before but give me a coywolf over a gator ANY day. 

I've seen one coywolf since being back in New England and I hear them up on the mountain at night and see their scat, so they are around. i have seen one big black bear on my property, and I've been told it lives here but it seems to make itself scarce, probably because of how often I walk in the woods with my dogs.

I don't want any trouble. Try hard to be sure my dogs don't go stirring up trouble and as long as they aren't out chasing wildlife or roaming the woods at night alone (which they NEVER are), I hope we have no future conflicts.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > https://medium.com/wild-without-end...-fiscal-year-2018-spending-bills-6ca818f0143d
> ...


Yes I can imagine. A lot of many hot topics. I can imagine the bumper sticker business can be a good business to get into lol!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> A carcass is a deeply disrespectful term to use for the body of a human being.


And "Urban Arm Chair Liberal" is deeply a disrespectful term for those of us who value preserving ecology.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> PS: feel free to kill any and all snakes that take up residence in your chicken coop. > without remorse!


Even the endangered species? Such as the Eastern Indigo?

It is important to note that in several states the legislature does not allow for the killing of certain species of snakes EVEN IF they are in a chicken coop.

Depredation laws vary from state to state and then some state laws are further trumped by federal laws. Just because a wild animal is killing your livestock does NOT mean you necessarily have the legal right to kill it. This seems especially true when dealing with "non traditional" predators. Some species require permits before you can harvest. Some can only be trapped and relocated by a licensed professional. 

I encourage anyone who has any sort of stock and is facing predator issues to PLEASE call their area's Fish and Wildlife Services and ask for advice on how to legally deal with your predators.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Even the endangered species? Such as the Eastern Indigo?
> 
> It is important to note that in several states the legislature does not allow for the killing of certain species of snakes EVEN IF they are in a chicken coop.
> 
> ...


So true.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> I remember that movie!Remember the mice?Gross but funny


Yes!! I remember the mice part. My grandsons thought it was hilarious and my teenage granddaughters were horrified. The boys will tease them forever at cookouts etc. 
Mice aside, the girls really enjoyed the movie. 

I just learned it’s a Disney film.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Even the endangered species? Such as the Eastern Indigo?
> 
> It is important to note that in several states the legislature does not allow for the killing of certain species of snakes EVEN IF they are in a chicken coop.
> 
> ...


Nice catch, I stand corrected!


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## Kibs (Oct 25, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> But, I thought reintroducing wolves into yellow stone saved the park, maybe the planet.
> https://youtu.be/NI5l8aumEWE
> So you think that like the video says about the elk being kept in check. Humans need to keep the wolves in check. Like we do with deer? This may keep them from overflowing into neighboring areas.


I think this video: 



 too is a great example of how predators can have a positive effect on the natural environment.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> It _is_ a hot topic in some northern areas around the Great Lakes right now. "Save Wildlife, Shoot a Wolf" bumper stickers are becoming a thing.


That makes me sad.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> It _is_ a hot topic in some northern areas around the Great Lakes right now. "Save Wildlife, Shoot a Wolf" bumper stickers are becoming a thing.


"Smoke a pack a day" with the image of a wolf in scope cross hairs is very common here.

Two wolves were poached just this past weekend just north of us. Sadly chances are slim they'll be caught. Many wolves in south east BC have been culled in an attempt to protect the last few woodland caribou. Their range is SE BC, NE WA, and N Idaho. These caribou are genetically the same as other herds further north, but they are unique in their behavior. They will climb the steep elevations looking for old mans beard in the wetter old growth forests.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Kibs said:


> I think this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q too is a great example of how predators can have a positive effect on the natural environment.


That is a not great example about how predators have a positive effect on the natural environment but they do indeed have a positive effect. If they are properly managed, too many predators causes disadvantages just as not having enough causes problems. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/strangebehaviors.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/maybe-wolves-dont-change-rivers-after-all/amp/

One thing I will say. There's a lot of talk on the different species being introduced. I don't know all the logistics or fact vs. fiction about that but I do know these wolves are a **** of a lot bigger than the wolves that used to be in the area. At the museum in my hometown there are several wolves on display. The newest one from a few years ago makes the other wolves look like chihuahuas and that was a young wolf. I ran across an article that I can't find anymore, it was talking about a different type of wolf that more closely matched the Rocky Mountain Grey Wolf in size that may have been better to bring in to the area. From my understanding it's like how technically WGSLs and Working lines and ASLs are all German shepherds but every one on here agrees there are major differences between them. Or how German shepherds and corgis are both dogs, herding group at that, but are different. Obviously apples and oranges but still.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

https://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Called-...c0d-7842-4ba5-8267-97574e09d332_1513030264518
I have heard this not common but a true story. Of course some JA had to go shoot him. It seems to be a common theme a famous wild animal -usually becomes a trophy hunting target.


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## Kibs (Oct 25, 2017)

Kazel said:


> That is a not great example about how predators have a positive effect on the natural environment but they do indeed have a positive effect. If they are properly managed, too many predators causes disadvantages just as not having enough causes problems.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/strang...aybe-wolves-dont-change-rivers-after-all/amp/
> 
> One thing I will say. There's a lot of talk on the different species being introduced. I don't know all the logistics or fact vs. fiction about that but I do know these wolves are a **** of a lot bigger than the wolves that used to be in the area. At the museum in my hometown there are several wolves on display. The newest one from a few years ago makes the other wolves look like chihuahuas and that was a young wolf. I ran across an article that I can't find anymore, it was talking about a different type of wolf that more closely matched the Rocky Mountain Grey Wolf in size that may have been better to bring in to the area. From my understanding it's like how technically WGSLs and Working lines and ASLs are all German shepherds but every one on here agrees there are major differences between them. Or how German shepherds and corgis are both dogs, herding group at that, but are different. Obviously apples and oranges but still.



I would like for you to read the top-comment on the article you linked. It seems like its not a black and white issue of course. Wolves can hardly be the only reason for such a major change in the environment, but my point was (and still stands) is that they did play a considerable role in the recovery of the Yellowstone Park (or the beginning there of) - along with other predators, such as bears, which your article also mentioned. Not to mention that the video is beautifully done and sends a good message to people that are still trying to understand the value a single species hold in their ecosystem. 
Also of course - there are different species of wolves, some bigger, some smaller. From what I have learned bigger bodied animals are usually best suited for colder climates and there have been studies done on various animal population that show that members of the same species will, on average, be larger in colder climates than those living on warmer climates. So perhaps this is just Natural Selection at work here. 
Also, the Mackenzie Valley wolves introduced to the Yellowstone park range from 26–36 inches, where as the Northern Rocky Mountain wolf stand at 26–32 inches. While I can see that 4 inches can make a considerable difference, I don't think this is a HUGE difference. But I can see where you are coming from and I don't quite understand why they did not reintroduce the species that originally lived there. I assume there are differences apart from size as well, in hunting patterns and the like. However it was a big decision and I assume that they knew what they were doing.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Kazel said:


> That is a not great example about how predators have a positive effect on the natural environment but they do indeed have a positive effect. If they are properly managed, too many predators causes disadvantages just as not having enough causes problems.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/strang...aybe-wolves-dont-change-rivers-after-all/amp/
> 
> One thing I will say. There's a lot of talk on the different species being introduced. I don't know all the logistics or fact vs. fiction about that but I do know these wolves are a **** of a lot bigger than the wolves that used to be in the area. At the museum in my hometown there are several wolves on display. The newest one from a few years ago makes the other wolves look like chihuahuas and that was a young wolf. I ran across an article that I can't find anymore, it was talking about a different type of wolf that more closely matched the Rocky Mountain Grey Wolf in size that may have been better to bring in to the area. From my understanding it's like how technically WGSLs and Working lines and ASLs are all German shepherds but every one on here agrees there are major differences between them. Or how German shepherds and corgis are both dogs, herding group at that, but are different. Obviously apples and oranges but still.


If we could keep our selves contained, nature would take care of her own. The problem is with humans, we are the wild card in the deck. We take more then we need and destroy what we don't want, or don't like. Personally since we felt a need to create cattle and sheep for food, and we farm fish now I see no reason why we need to be allowed to hunt. And if we insist on living in the few untouched areas left, we should just assume our place on the food chain. According to our teeth that's food.
A grey wolf is a grey wolf. Environment dictates the differences. Over time nature will adjust the differences.
https://www.livescience.com/55586-wolves-only-one-species.html


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