# Rich/Poor GSD owners - Show/Activity vs Pet



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thought this might be a good discussion since I've come up against this wall so much lately.....it gets a little frustrating. The mods say this site is for everyone - but sometimes there is a great wall separation by what is best and what is affordable by the new pet owners..... the advise given can be unattainable by the person asking for help. 

The have's

1. Buy from the best breeders, recommended lines, imported or transported from across state, lengthy waiting for litters, network of who's who in the GSD world, knowledgeable with GSD's, bloodlines & breeders.

2. Able to afford the best food/diet. Professional trainers are used. Grooming toward target Show/Sport/Ring planned and finances are available.

3. Best vet care, exercise and training regimen established and prepared.

4. Titling and certification planned and knowledge of requirements are known. 

Then you have the pet world; sometimes the have not's....

1. Average/low income - want a great pup but the prices are sky high. People that pay that much are only doing it for status or serious competitive show/work to get titles. We don't want/need that! We just want a pet.

2. Has seen GSD's on TV - the best of the best - but knows it's a different world for him and looks to what's available locally at a price that he can afford.

3. Has little to no knowledge about health, bloodlines or best food, but he knows in his life he has experienced some great GSD's locally raised as have his friends in his community and they did great with "regular food" and litters from local folks. At local reasonable prices.

4. Vet bills? No way a dog vet bill would be $2-$3 thousand dollars for tests??? Maybe even then no diagnosis?? Pet Insurance? No one I ever knew had that! We'll use the old remedies that have worked for generations on dogs, cats, farm animals.

Want a GSD - look for "responsible breeders" with "health checks". "Beware of BYB's!!!" "If you pay less than $1,500 for your GSD - it's from a BYB!" If you can't afford the vet bills - GSD's are expensive dogs to upkeep - Don't get one!" "If you don't title your dog and know about bloodlines - don't breed it". 

And they compare their reality with yours - and there are no matches. They know their friends and family decades back had a pet GSD from a local litter that was awesome, ate "regular store food" and the pup was not expensive to buy from a local family. 

Just pointing out the disparity - the help asked, the advise offered and the judgment given when excited JQP comes here to announce proudly he has a new GSD puppy and has a couple of questions......


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think most people are open to learning and getting educated. One doesn't have to be stuck in only one way of thinking. I think it is extremely limiting to say that that having a good GSD is out of reach for most people, and the way you present the "elite" is offensive. 

Most of us started off as pet dog owners, and as we learned more, set specific personal goals for our dogs. Seriously Stone, I saved up for two years to buy a dog from a good breeder, and I drive a 2004 van, just to show you how I set my priorities; I find your reasoning and thought process offensive that I'm a rich snob for having an expensive dog and doing IPO. (Because rich people take two years to save up a couple of thousand dollars, right?) 


What you feel is unatainable, some of us worked our buts off to attain. How about giving people some credit for being open to learning about the GSD lines, breeding, BYB vs. good breeder. How about giving people some credit for finding a new passion and pursuing it, be it IPO, SAR, or other working or performance venue. If you choose a different path for dog ownership, fine - we all wish you health and happiness, but don't dump on those that chose a different path for their dogs and their level of dog involvement. 

How about some credit for wanting to help others make knowledgeable, informed decisions about getting a dog? Lumping people into a have and have-not category is ridiculous. 

There was a time when I thought that anyone who paid money for a pure-bred papered dog was a snob, LOL! Guess what? I knew beans!! I understand so much more about the dog world now, and can respect different views and values. We are all on a journey, and seeing our journey though only the filter of money is very self-limiting. 

If people come on this board, I'm assuming they are not average dog owners, they are above average because they want to read and learn about GSDs, so bring on the breeding, training, historical, ethical discussions!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> I think most people are open to learning and getting educated. One doesn't have to be stuck in only one way of thinking. I think it is extremely limiting to say that that having a good GSD is out of reach for most people, and the way you present the "elite" is offensive.
> 
> Most of us started off as pet dog owners, and as we learned more, set specific personal goals for our dogs. Seriously Stone, I saved up for two years to buy a dog from a good breeder, and drive a 2004 van; I find your reasoning and thought process offensive that I'm a rich snob for having an expensive dog and doing IPO. (Because rich people take two years to save up a couple of thousand dollars, right?)
> 
> ...


Where did the word snob come in? lol You saved up for two years and drive a 2004 car. What that is explaining to me is that you are outside of the norm I am talking about. You are the exception and that word means no guesses as to it's intent. 

I'm actually glad I got your ire up because that will help me explain a little further....

I am a pet owner. I purchased from what I was told was a BYB when I first asked for an explanation of the AKC paperwork. Although I have owned 5 GSD's. I have always raised them in the old ways and just has my family and neighbors have always done.

There is a best way and a way that still works. If you can afford the best way - outstanding - I would do nothing but if I could.

What I am trying to address, and I don't have the answer for; is when newbies come to this site and post for the first time and need help.

Recommendations are given and very good ones for the most part But, there is a line that the person that cannot afford the recommended trainers, diet or vet care, tests, titling, etc and everything suggested to him just cannot do. It has never been my experience that people that are financially challenged will immediately volunteer and say "Woaah!" I only have 40 dollars a month to spend on my dog..... They just don't. They're either gone or they try another way to get answers and that gets frustrating for the people who posted to help because they think the newbie is discounting their recommendations.

THIS is the end I'm hitting at - not everyone can do best recommendations for their pup/dog or is able to make it a #1 priority in their life as much as they would personally want to. Do you ever see someone asking for help here just sort of fading out of the conversation - I think many of them are not able to afford what should be done and so they're gone.....

How people can and will deal with their dogs has a financial basis... that is my point - and those that gave all just to get the best are the exception and not the norm. The "masses" in need are different and come from all SES. 

This site has a wealth of information - but it can be better. Pet people with GSD's that may not be feeding anything but what they can afford at the grocery store or not a lot of vet tests or not a trainer won't be forthcoming with that information.... but it's there and there are hundreds of thousands of them.....


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> If people come on this board, I'm assuming they are not average dog owners, they are above average because they want to read and learn about GSDs, so bring on the breeding, training, historical, ethical discussions!


I am just the average dog owner. However, this is the last dog I will own before I die. This is the first one that I have so much time with as I am retired. I, for the first time in my life - have time..... but no money. Lots of great suggestions here every time I post for help but I can't do most of the recommended things for my girl and it makes me sick because I do read everything here and see how much she's missing. 

It's a two edged sword but that's the way it is and the way it is for a lot of GSD owners. This site has a few active posters but a huge, huge following on views. Have you ever asked why that is?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I've been on both sides of the coin. 

I'm no where near rich, but I have a healthy "dog budget" thanks to sacrifices elsewhere in life. I currently spend several hundred dollars a month for dog food. I am training in both agility and IPO.

My current GSD is an oops. Half BYB have WL. He cost less then dinner and drinks at outback. I'm planning to get another GSD in the next 2 years and will be getting one from a 'good' breeder. Probably will have it shipped. 

8 years ago I was homeless and lived in my car with the dogs for a while. Then I had to struggle to get back on my feet. They didn't go to the vet. They ate cheap. I'm sure I would have been told to Rehome them. But whatev. Those poor neglected dogs? One passed away last year at the age of 14 and the other just celebrated his 17th birthday and is asleep at my feet. 

You do what you can. *shrug*


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

My Judith is from a BYB but I don't care, I love her. I give her the same chance as your 2000 dollar German shepherd, paying good money for Schutzhund training, and she will do trials as a mix. She gets the best food I can find with research I've done, and she will be taken to the vet if anything is wrong with her, as well as for yearly checkup. Knowing what I do, would I rather have got one from a reputable breeder? Of course, but my Judith will have the best life of a GSD from a BYB she possibly can, and be able to learn protection, and live as long and as healthy of a life as any GSD with a pedigree.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't know where any of mine are from. Every time I talked to the breeder and made plans to go that route, a GSD popped up that needed help. This happened with both Midnite and Apollo. The breeder understood and we laughed about how I wasn't meant to get a dog from a breeder yet. I wouldn't change that and I have no problem rescuing in the future. I have a dog(another breed-non GSD) that came from a breeder with all the titles and health stuff--that dog costed me $15,000.00 for his hips. Health can't be guaranteed by anyone. I'm not the type of person that will save for a dog. I get what I get and work with that. It has worked well for me. 

I am certainly not rich, but my dogs are taken care of. I'm very thankful that I had experience working at a vet as a vet tech because that experience helps me all the time as far as illnesses, what to look for or if a vet visit is even needed. I've also found that you can save on vet visits by doing other stuff better. For example, a better diet might cost more, but it cuts down on vet visits. Grooming is done at home. I purchased the dryer and the initial investment paid for itself after one bath for all the dogs. I bought all the agility equipment, which again was a huge investment but I have 6 dogs that enjoy that. I took classes with one dog and I was able to learn how to teach the rest. That agility equipment will last forever. If you figure $150 for each class and I do a min of 6 classes with each dog, my equipment paid for itself. Swimming--dogs love it. You can't trust lakes and ponds with algae and stuff, taking them swimming is $60 for one dog and 1/2 hour. I bought a pool, paid for itself the first year. I have 7 dogs that love to swim. 

I think training should be a cost that people set aside. I'm a big believer that the first year should be filled with obedience and I make it a point that each dog goes to at least 3-4 classes. It is something I feel is necessary and always suggest it to new owners. 

Limit vaccines--research and give what is necessary, do not over vaccinate. That can cause problems down the line and it's not cost effective. My dogs now get rabies only every 3 yrs-$70 every three yrs for vaccines. 

There are definitley things that can be done to save money. Some stuff might be an initial investment but you have to look at the big picture.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

> Lumping people into a have and have-not category is ridiculous.


I agree with Castlemaid's statement.

This site is its own example. Membership is _free_. Thousands of pages of information and history is _free_. A discerning careful reader can find lots of valuable information here without spending a single cent. There are threads that frequently discuss best value per pound for food quality, online vet med ordering options to save money, resources with good prices, where to shop, and how to build-your-own equipment. All... Free.

There's nothing wrong with expensive wants and desires. If you want something specific and wonderful, you can save, you can choose to prioritize. Or you can choose a less expensive option. There is _nothing_ wrong with either choice, but it is certainly not a black and white divide.

If you're truly interested in bridging a "gap", it would be far more helpful to start a thread, name it *"Tips and Tricks for Saving Money, Raising a Healthy Sound GSD"*. Now there's an idea! Perhaps consider doing this, instead of drawing a line in the sand between haves and have-nots.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Gosh, I can't believe none of us has ever noticed "economic disparity" before Stonevintage had the courage and astute thinking to reveal it! The unfairness of what the Haves have and what the Have-nots haven't is . . . unfair! Not until now did any of us understand that the Haves are just callously flaunting their hav-i-ness, what with all their expensive advice and recommendations. Why, its criminal really! Oh, its not criminal? Well it should be! Certainly its immoral. Decent people don't hoard wealth while other people are in need. Wealthy people don't need ALL that wealth! And if they're going to selfishly and thoughtlessly flaunt it . . . well!

Now of course, its important to note that certain people are not Haves but they exhibit hav-i-ness but we musn't confuse them with the enemy, ahem, I mean, the Haves. The pseudo-Haves are Have-nots that have sufficiently struggled and sacrificed to obtain bits and pieces of hav-i-ness. How do we know what's sufficient? Well, its hard to quantify so best to just go on a case by case basis. Also, if its someone you feel good about, that's a plus. Really, just use your best judgement.

You know, if the Haves would start up a fund here for the Have-nots it would go a VERY long way to reducing the stark disparity we all see and feel just terrible about, wouldn't it? It should be open and transparent. Anyone who contributes should be listed and applauded for their commitment to eradicating the scourge of disparity. 

Of course those who need the help of the Furry Friends Fund (let's call it that, okay?) shouldn't be named because in this sick, profit-greedy society its looked down upon to panhandle, I mean, to be in need of assistance. People who are in need of help, who just want to give their GSDs the best possible food, vet care and homes that have mortgage payments, right? No one should ever be made to feel ashamed of wanting the best for their GSD! Let's unite in our love for this amazing, wonderful breed that we all love so dearly!


Though it goes without saying, /sarc.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I had a Ridgie Mix, free to my family because the original family didn't know how to train her and she ran amok. They had no idea what an awesome dog they had. She was as smart as a whip, loving as can be. I was living pay check to pay check and she ate grocery store food. I got training books from the library. I used a choke chain but since she learned so quickly it almost never tightened. She won "best trick" at a kids' pet show. She lived till her mid teens and fell asleep in a sunny spot in the backyard and never woke again. 

I also had times when I could not afford an vet emergency. That stunk. I didn't buy health insurance for my dog. I didn't have health insurance for myself!

Now we have two GSDS and can afford training and titling and I spend more on them than I do on myself. One of our grown sons has a sick puppy and we can afford to help with vet bills if he needs it (which he says he doesn't). 

Once we both are retired this may all change again.
There are seasons in life and yes, we need to keep in mind that not everyone can afford the very best.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> > Lumping people into a have and have-not category is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> I agree with Castlemaid's statement.
> ...


All of this.

And what Castlemaid said, too. While I'm not personally offended, your post was really offensive, Stone. Laughably so, really.

You'd have done way better to do something positive (and phrase it positively), as WI suggests, as opposed to just complaining.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> Average/low income - want a great pup but the prices are sky high. *People that pay that much are only doing it for status or serious competitive show/work to get titles. We don't want/need that! We just want a pet.*


I am just going to highlight this as being untrue and unfair, and this actually does offend me.

I wanted a great pup. I did want to do obedience and maybe sport competition with her, but first and foremost she has to be a good house pet. I did not buy her for status. If I had, I'd be bragging about her pedigree all over this site (which would be a way different intent from that of the posters who share a pedigree to learn more about their individual dog or pedigrees/lines in general) and to anyone who would listen offline. But I'm not. I wanted a good pet, and I'm not alone. I know so many people who chose to budget for a dog similar to mine because that dog would just be a good pet for their young families.

I've long hated that "must be nice"/"he or she only cares about status" attitude when someone decides that a particular option that happens to be more expensive is the right one for them.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

There's a saying that comes to mind after reading your post:

If wishes were fishes, there'd be no room left in the sea

We don't live in a perfect world, if every person was a millionaire and never had to scrounge for food or shelter there would still be unease and complainers out there that it's not enough. Instead of looking at others and being frustrated why don't you look at what you have and just be thankful for it.

Yes I was one of those people too that saved for a long time to afford a well bred GSD and spent the money into training and vet care for him. Is he perfect? Nope, but he's mine to love and care for and that's all that matters to me. I don't care if you spent $50 or $5000 on your dog, a good dog is a good dog. To me it's not about the cost, it's about supporting the breeders that are trying their best to do the breed right and not just make a buck or two.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are some days all I can do is shake my head.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Castlemaid said:


> I think most people are open to learning and getting educated. One doesn't have to be stuck in only one way of thinking. I think it is extremely limiting to say that that having a good GSD is out of reach for most people, and the way you present the "elite" is offensive.
> 
> Most of us started off as pet dog owners, and as we learned more, set specific personal goals for our dogs. Seriously Stone, I saved up for two years to buy a dog from a good breeder, and I drive a 2004 van, just to show you how I set my priorities; I find your reasoning and thought process offensive that I'm a rich snob for having an expensive dog and doing IPO. (Because rich people take two years to save up a couple of thousand dollars, right?)
> 
> ...


:thumbup: THIS is the majority of the people I meet in the dog world, me included (who still drives the '97 truck I have owned since '99). Well said.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I am far from rich. What I have learned is, where there is a will, there is a way. If people want it bad enough they will figure out how to do it. I took a loan from my parents to get my first GSD. Actually every GSD I have bought I have made payments on. I found that majority of good breeders I have met, are will to work people as long as they are the right people for their dogs. Key words there are right people. The breeders I have dealt with are interviewing you as much as you are them. 

The fact is, dogs are expensive. The $2k down payment is nothing compared to the expense of owning the dog for a life time. My wife's dad has two rescue GSD's that in the first year of having them cost him over $5k in vet bills each. On top of training to deal their behavioral issues. So which one is really less expensive?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dog is life beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeitch


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I am far from rich. What I have learned is, where there is a will, there is a way. If people want it bad enough they will figure out how to do it. I took a loan from my parents to get my first GSD. Actually every GSD I have bought I have made payments on. I found that majority of good breeders I have met, are will to work people as long as they are the right people for their dogs. Key words there are right people. The breeders I have dealt with are interviewing you as much as you are them.
> 
> The fact is, dogs are expensive. The $2k down payment is nothing compared to the expense of owning the dog for a life time. My wife's dad has two rescue GSD's that in the first year of having them cost him over $5k in vet bills each. On top of training to deal their behavioral issues. So which one is really less expensive?


I think experiences are going to be across the board. I personally have never spent any money on behavioral issues for any dog--rescue or not. My most expensive dog to date is the one that came from a breeder(hips).


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

I'm not offended. Understanding the available resources is a good idea when coming up with a plan of action. I don't see the post as anything more than that.
Resources in the broadest sense is "what is the owner ready, willing, and able to do".
Can be income, can be a fenced yard, or lack thereof, lack of time, ample time, emotional resources, stress levels, etc.. 
I lurk mostly and learn much, and enjoy/love the lively debates. I'm very much in favour of a broad range of answers to problems, especially as many of us just lurk and learn, but if you are trying to help an individual dog and owner, figuring out what the owner's resources are (financial, physical, emotional) is helpful start.
Back to lurking...


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Stone is frustrated.Just one of those times that we all have when we hit send before thinking things through.
Baillif apparently doesn't have that problem.
Maybe this post can be turned into a thrifty dog owner's thread as WiFi suggested.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Stone is frustrated.Just one of those times that we all have when we hit send before thinking things through.
> Baillif apparently doesn't have that problem.
> *Maybe this post can be turned into a thrifty dog owner's thread as WiFi suggested*.


If anyone is interested in having that discussion (rather than change this topic or OP's intent for this thread), feel free to add to the idea pile here. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-tricks-saving-money-raising-great-dogs.html


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

I guess I fall into the category of the "Have-Not" although I don't agree with that. I don't think it should matter if you have spent a bunch of money on a dog or not. If the dog is getting the love and care he/she deserves then pedigree and all that doesn't matter to me. I don't have the money right now to do the agility and guard dog training that I want to do, but I'm saving up and when I have it, I'll be right there. He's going in obedience classes, and he's got all his vaccinations that he needs. But I don't think that just because I'm a have not that I can't ask questions when I need to. Those are the best people to ask when something comes up. I don't find all the people on here "snobby" just because they have more experience or have a "show dog" as it was said. I may not always agree with something said to me, but that doesn't mean that I think they're just trying to make themselves sound more important. 
I feed my dog raw food and it costs me an arm and a leg, but I do it because I know it's what's best for him. I put myself in debt every month to make sure that he gets what he needs. I have been luckily able to afford to take him to the vet every time he needs to but that doesn't mean that I always will. German Shepherds are an expensive breed, and I think that if you want a well rounded dog then you need to be willing to spend the extra money if you can. If you can't, then there are other ways around it, just like others have said. Just because I don't have a lot of money and wasn't able to get my dog from an expensive breeder in my area (thought I would have loved to, but this puppy chose us) doesn't mean that I give a rat's behind that someone else did. Good for them! Also, I don't want to be labeled. Labels are what make the world such a hostile environment as it is. Why can't we all just be German Shepherd owners, no matter what our social or financial status? Our dogs don't care, so why should we? Just a thought.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

Heres how I see it. like people said this whole site is a great way to learn about the breed. 
I've wanted a gsd since i could remember. MY parents never bought one for me and now I'm glad because that dog would have been given away. We would not have had the resources to potty train exercise and properly stimulate a gsd. My parent would not have been able to understand the puppy biting stage and would have given it to a shelter as an aggressive dog guaranteed. They even though my current pup was going to be a mean dog and wanted me to give him away. LOL 
Me wanting a dog continued all through out HS and once i was in college I wanted to buy one. Around junior year I scoured CL and pet finder for dogs but never committed. Then i started doing research here. The first thing i learned was how expensive it was going to be to own a dog regardless of purchase price. And in my naive state i did not factor in monthly vet visits or raw food but just looked up average kibble prices etc. After i realized that i knew i couldnt have a dog while in school and if the cost of ownership would be so high i realized i had to go with a good reputable breeder to minimize long term health risks. So my senior year i set out on looking for a breeder obviously i remembered how big gsds used to look to me when i met them growing up and how huge and sweet my cousins was growing up. So i looked for old fashioned big "straight back" breeders. using this site i quickly realized that was not the rout to go. I looked at what people said about what the gsd was origionally breed to be A medium size agile working dog. It was clear that i did not have the time or money to raise a working line gsd so i new i still had to wait that didnt keep me from looking at breeders. finally a few months out of college once i had the proper place to live my finances were stable, i had a regular schedule and I had saved enough to buy a dog I did. All in all i think it doesnt matter if you are wealthy or fresh out of school like me anyone can put in the effort to find a good dog and take care of them to the best of their ability. If i had though i wouldnt be able to give my dog everything he needed id go with a dog that needs less exercise or stimulation not go with a more poorly breed dog that i could then breed so my neighbors could have a dog just like mine. And my dog isnt perfect either. He eats kibble but its the best i could do. I finally found a way to get him raw fed but that took again more research and time. I think its just about what people want to devote to their dogs. Its easier for someone me (young unmarried no kids) to get all this figured out than some one with a family working 2 jobs and kids nagging about a puppy like i did with my parents.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

To me, my dog that I got from CL is given much better care, and love than the person who has 20 GSD on their property, and does breedings with all the proper paperwork, OFA certification etc. Your dogs may be cared for well on paper, but it will never get the same love, and attention as mine.


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## eljudo (Aug 20, 2007)

If I may add my 4 Canadian cents in ( due to exchange rate, lol ) I have been a pet own for most of my life.

Going by just GSD dogs or mixed dogs.


My first GSD, wasnt pure bred, half breed. I paid $150.00. 

Second one, pure bred, BYB, paid $300.00

Third one, pure bred, paid $1000.00

Fourth one ( current ) paid $2500.00 for him.

What I am trying to say, is that I bought what I could afford and fed accordingly. Now, being in my early 40's, reasonable income, I am was able to purchase my GSD from a reputable breeder, at a price I could afford without going hungry myself!

Typically, the advice given on this board is great and its a great source of information, however, ultimately the decision is yours and you privately know your budget and what you can or cannot afford. Feeding raw food, going to Cesar Millan for dog training, you and your pet having AAA steak for dinner.. is great but as long as you can financially able to afford it. If not, you have to decide if a GSD is a pet you can realistically afford to purchase and maintain, or at the very least a pure bred one.


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

I can understand where Stone is coming from, I love this site for the amazing info provided and I come here daily to read and learn but when it comes to questions I have about my free mixed GSD mutt I usually head to other sources just because I feel I won't get the same response and attention as having a pure and well bred pedigree GSD owners get which is ok since it is the GSD not mutts forum. Now when it comes to the other part Stone mentioned about having $$$ that I disagree with. I have money to buy a expensive dog but circumstances at that time gave me this pup which I love and even having money I wouldn't buy a 2.500 plus dog only because I am only interested in having a pet not a show or titled dog. Just my 2 cents


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> Stone is frustrated.Just one of those times that we all have when we hit send before thinking things through.
> Baillif apparently doesn't have that problem.
> Maybe this post can be turned into a thrifty dog owner's thread as WiFi suggested.


I do what I want.

You can go through life complaining about your situation and the limits it puts on you, or you can find ways to get through it and better your situation and solve your problems.

Part of the reason I like hard crazy malinois with high drives, high bounce up rates when they experience adversity, and a lot of go is they know what they want and are willing to push limits to obtain it. You give one a super hard correction that would shut a normal dog way down and reduce it to a puddle on the floor, not only do they take it but even if it suppresses them, as soon as you make a reward available they take it without hesitation. They don't lay on the ground feeling sorry for themselves or paralyzed by fear of what might happen, they quickly forget it and take what they want.

I'm not saying I like them like that because I give corrections like that, but I like that kind of spirit in the animal. An animal with the tenacity of a honey badger. It wants what it wants and will go through a person, a hive of angry bees, or a brick wall to get it.

I like people like that too. Blame your situation, blame society, blame your upbringing, blame your parents, *** Removed by ADMIN *** . You want something? Make it happen.


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Thought this might be a good discussion since I've come up against this wall so much lately.....it gets a little frustrating. The mods say this site is for everyone - but sometimes there is a great wall separation by what is best and what is affordable by the new pet owners..... the advise given can be unattainable by the person asking for help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




NAILED IT!! The resin I stopped coming around. First time I've been on here in a while. Ironic that I find this. Lol.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> I have about my free mixed GSD mutt I usually head to other sources just because I feel I won't get the same response and attention as having a pure and well bred pedigree GSD owners get


I don't think this is true at all. People may ask about your dog's background to help understand the issues, but they are not asking in order to decide if their time to help is worth it. 

A lot of our mods have mixes and other breeds of dogs - I joined this forum many years ago with my mixed breed rescue - didn't even have the intention back then to get a GSD. I joined the forum because I started Schutzhund with my mixed breed, and was looking for a place to talk and learn more. Nobody, not once, EVER, made me feel that I wasn't welcome here or that my dog was somehow worth less than other people's dogs that may have come from a breeder.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> I don't think this is true at all. People may ask about your dog's background to help understand the issues, but they are not asking in order to decide if their time to help is worth it.
> 
> A lot of our mods have mixes and other breeds of dogs - I joined this forum many years ago with my mixed breed rescue - didn't even have the intention back then to get a GSD. I joined the forum because I started Schutzhund with my mixed breed, and was looking for a place to talk and learn more. Nobody, not once, EVER, made me feel that I wasn't welcome here or that my dog was somehow worth less than other people's dogs that may have come from a breeder.


A lot of POSTERS have mixes and other breeds of dog. Look at llombardo, and I've never seen anyone be all, "Oh you shouldn't be here with your MIX and your GOLDEN RETRIEVER." So no. I reject the claim that people with mixes are all treated differently. Maybe it's the person, not the dogs.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

I also have a mutt dog who i love just as much as my well bred shepherd. My girlfriend had her when we first met and she was only $200. She is a sweet loving dog and I dont feed my dogs based on how much they cost. My mutt actually ate better then my gsd because while i could only provide HQ kibble for him we were able to afford the expensive pre-made raw from the pet store for her since she is only 3 lb and eats so little.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Perceptions get skewed sometimes because they are colored by our own thoughts, feelings ... and imagination. "Pet owners" (I'm one ... aren't we all???) sometimes do things because colloquially it's how it's always been done. Sometimes, they are ignorant. Not stupid ... but ignorant, i.e., without knowledge or information, about things that might be better or easier a different or new way.

I think it's fantastic that there's a site where so many people, experiences, and information can be accessed. Maybe what you should have 'addressed' initially is what this site gives is OPTIONS that a person might not have thought of themselves. Even if they don't utilize it, voicing the option isn't wrong. 

What a strange thread.

ETA: So ... maybe the thread subjects should now say PET DOG: <subject> ? That way only pet dog owners should reply?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I don't think this is true at all. People may ask about your dog's background to help understand the issues, but they are not asking in order to decide if their time to help is worth it.
> 
> A lot of our mods have mixes and other breeds of dogs - I joined this forum many years ago with my mixed breed rescue - didn't even have the intention back then to get a GSD. I joined the forum because I started Schutzhund with my mixed breed, and was looking for a place to talk and learn more. Nobody, not once, EVER, made me feel that I wasn't welcome here or that my dog was somehow worth less than other people's dogs that may have come from a breeder.


Same here.

Jax is supposedly a mix. At the very least, she's my pound puppy. People were very supportive of her agility (short lived) career, her torn acl and just her in general.

Banshee was a purebred, BYB, Boxer. When she was sick and elderly, MANY people were more than happy to help and give me advice on how to proceed, support me in my decisions and mourn with me when we lost her.

Seger - bought from a reputable breeder. I get the same response to pictures of him as I did Jax. (and as a disclaimer....I drive a 2009 Rav with almost 200k miles on it and a cracked windshield)

I think, if a person is not getting a welcoming response, that they should review their own attitude in the thread. When I don't get a decent response to a thread I made, it's usually because I've been short with people and that shut it down. Not because people weren't willing to help.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Can't find the right words. But I disagree with the overall assessment of the op


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I do what I want.
> 
> You can go through life complaining about your situation and the limits it puts on you, or you can find ways to get through it and better your situation and solve your problems.
> 
> ...


The name calling was inappropriate.Your posts on the other hand are always enlightening and always get me thinking and learning more about how dogs think.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This seems to me to be less about money and more about priorities. My income is very low. I buy clothes at Goodwill. I could afford new clothes but I would rather spend the money on my dogs and I find cool stuff at Goodwill.

I work as much as I can but I am limited by a medical condition. I don't use it as an excuse for anything. I busted my a** starting my second business which I tailored to be doable for me with my limitations. I busted my a** training my own service dog to make myself more independant and mobile since there was not a big program training them for this specific issue. 

In nobody's fantasy world am I rich. I spent a grand on my retiring service dog this MONTH in vet bills. She has an issue going on. I will fix it if it can be fixed. She has selflessly worked her whole life for me. I am still disabled but willing to do whatever it takes for her. She is as much my family as any human, and she has done more for me than most humans.

As far as the BYB thing, that is just are you willing to look beyond your own little world. It is irresponsible. It contributes to pet overpopulation, health problems. The days of "the old ways" are over for the most part. What was human population in the 50's? How was pet overpopulation? Did all shelters euthanize at will and nobody cared? Animal welfare and husbandry has come a long way even in the past 15 yrs. 

Having a dog is a choice. Why choose to do it if you can't afford it (or don't have your priorities straight enough to find the money)

It might be haves and have nots as far as having knowledge, but knowledge is free. Heck exercise and training doesn't have to be expensive. Group classes are cheap. Youtube is free. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Don't want to title your dog? Doesn't matter a hill of beans to me. My olg gal isn't titled unless you count us being team certified by a reputable service dog organization. We worked our butts off for two years training for that and getting all her health clearances. I was living in subsidized housing at the time. I bartered dog walking and sitting to my training mentor because I couldn't pay her full price. It was worth every second and penny. We performed and passed with flying colors a day long public access test in Boston where she flawlessly performed all her tasks...on the subway...city street ect.

I plan to title my boy. For fun mostly. I'll probably be wearing second-hand clothes


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

WateryTart said:


> A lot of POSTERS have mixes and other breeds of dog. Look at llombardo, and I've never seen anyone be all, "Oh you shouldn't be here with your MIX and your GOLDEN RETRIEVER." So no. I reject the claim that people with mixes are all treated differently. Maybe it's the person, not the dogs.


I will say in the first year on here I did feel that some people were more judgemental. I think I even got temporarily banned defending one of my GSDs. I learned to ignore it. I don't even know if they(people) are still around. At the same time when my golden had dislocated his hip, there were a lot of helpful people that I'm thankful for. In general people on here are decent people and above average owners. They welcome people with any breed for the most part. I do enjoy this community and the different types of people that are here. It shouldn't matter what people think, what's best for the dogs is the most important thing--no matter where they came from or what breed they are.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Dogs don't care. They really don't care how much you spend on them. My dogs wouldn't know the difference really between a good game of tug and working at the club with a helper. Each fills fairly similar needs. 

You can get the equivalent of a training class just by hanging out near a shopping center and working OB. 

You can figure out a ton by reading a good training book or two and catching up on threads here (total cost less than $50). 

Tons of good advice on the last "leashes" thread. Read it, try it, ask if you have issues.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Oh as for purchase price: if you aren't going to use your dog for work and only need a companion, great! Adopt! Years ago I got a fine, young working line GSD out of a kill shelter for about $100.

Ruger we adopted for like $150. He wasn't purebred, mostly GSD, and as I have said over and over, was th.e greatest dog who ever lived.

Afraid you'll bring home a dog you don't want to keep? Foster for your local GSD rescue until one comes you don't want to part with.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I will say in the first year on here I did feel that some people were more judgemental. I think I even got temporarily banned defending one of my GSDs. I learned to ignore it. I don't even know if they(people) are still around. At the same time when my golden had dislocated his hip, there were a lot of helpful people that I'm thankful for. In general people on here are decent people and above average owners. They welcome people with any breed for the most part. I do enjoy this community and the different types of people that are here. It shouldn't matter what people think, what's best for the dogs is the most important thing--no matter where they came from or what breed they are.


That's fair. I wasn't around in 2011, so I don't know what the tenor of the board was like then. It doesn't seem to be a big deal now, which I think is a good thing.

I feel bad that Stone is frustrated, but I just don't agree with her assessment of the divide. I don't think it's fair or wise to paint with such a broad brush of "these people are all about status and 'best practices' because they're rich" and "these people are the regular folk who just care about dogs." It's divisive language and isn't at all constructive.

What would have been a constructive, fair, and probably better received approach would have been to say, "I've noticed that a lot of the 'best practices' we talk about for getting and raising a dog are out of reach for a lot of people. Can we talk about tricks of the trade that have made it possible for people to do this and feel successful?" Like the thread that became a sticky. 

There will be an economic divide when it comes to anything in life. I think it's entirely fair to be aware of it and point it out. It is not fair or acceptable to try to throw blame on the people you label as "haves," and it will not inspire them to listen to you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> You can go through life complaining about your situation and the limits it puts on you, or you can find ways to get through it and better your situation and solve your problems.


Quote of the day!

You can be a victim or you can be survivor. Your choice. All life ends the same. :wink2:


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

WoW - Amazing I must say. 

I think most all know that there are good people in the world and not so good people in the world! So what you experience in a forum is a little of both as in life. If you don't understand No further explanation needed.

When it comes to dogs it's the same as people, there are good ones and not so good ones.

I believe that in any dog acquisition purchase/free it is important to fully understand the dog you are getting and in order to do that you would have to understand the dogs pedigree/needs and even then there are hidden risks/rewards.

Question: why are people breeding and buying/adopting dogs that they have not a clue about or the knowledge, mental capacity or personal motivation to understand? 

Oh I just love them, they are so great, look at that dog he/she is gorgeous (so cute), my dad grandmother etc... had one, I had one as a child yada yada yada I just want one...
Look folks I don't buy/own anything that I do not fully understand or have the capacity/personal motivation to deal with. To each his/her own, but I don't agree.

My next question would be why are people buying/adopting those dogs that are not of quality or standard? 

Price? C'mon really are you telling me there are not quality dogs at reasonable prices? 

If you are doing this you are supporting the potential downward spiral of the breed/animal you claim to love and care so much about. Patience are a virtue my friend.

The answer to the post here is IMO selfishness, many people are so selfish they don't honestly care about the animal they claim to love, they care about their own wants needs and desires which continues to erode the quality of the dogs out there. The further it is eroded the higher the price will go for the quality dogs that are available.

supply/demand.

If all that were available in the world were quality dogs then I could almost guarantee you they would all be affordable because everyone would have one or be offering one.

Anyone accepting anything less than a quality dog by any means purchase/adoption/breeding is simply causing the problems, not fixing them.

I don't care if the dog is free or you are paid to take it, if it is not a quality dog please do not be a part of it... otherwise you are simply contributing to the BIG problem.

Each time a lesser quality dog is sold or introduced it drives the value of the breed standard quality dogs up up up! I have watched people pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for dogs you could not pay me to own. This continues to corrupt the market.

With regard to care and food, I have watched people be charged hundreds and thousands of dollars for care that was completely unnecessary or could have been dealt with in a much more cost effective way. This continues to corrupt the market. FOOD: feed your dog as though you were feeding your child, if you don't you might want to reconsider owning a dog or you might not it's all up to you. There is affordable quality food around the world.

It is not what I can consider educated GSD/DOG owners/breeders rich/poor who are to blame but the uneducated (rich or poor) offering, paying absurd prices for dogs, care, food or training that ruins the industry. This continues to corrupt the market.



Are we really so selfish/uneducated as humans that we would support such activity? The answer is an unfortunate YES as we see it daily. ON HERE AND AROUND THE WHOLE WORLD.

FREE ADVISE: DO NOT BUY SELL OR ADOPT A DOG OF SUBSTANDARD QUALITY, DO NOT PAY FOR SUBSTANDARD CARE OR TRAINING if you do you are simply a part of the problem.

P.S. If you do not like what people say or how they say it simply ignore it and move along. Educate yourself in the most effective manner possible. The world is full of information you have to be able to take the good with the bad and filter it. This might be why there are so many people following and so few commenting on this website IMO. It might be a good thing!


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Never have I stated in my post that I wasn't welcome or made to feel inferior because of having a mixed breed so not sure where that came from. Now from daily reader point of view it seems that most posts get answered with "Go see the Vet" or "Find a good trainer" which I agree would be the optimal solution to their problems. I think most posters come here looking for an alternative options because like Stone said not everyone can afford that or for some reason are not able to and are looking for help/support from someone that had a similar experience. Usually people don't go looking for internet help when they can just solve it with a Vet or a Trainer.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MishkasMom said:


> Now from daily reader point of view it seems that most posts get answered with "Go see the Vet" or "Find a good trainer" which I agree would be the optimal solution to their problems. I think most posters come here looking for an alternative options because like Stone said not everyone can afford that or for some reason are not able to and are looking for help/support from someone that had a similar experience. Usually people don't go looking for internet help when they can just solve it with a Vet or a Trainer.


That's fair.

But my counter to that would be twofold.

Firstly, a lot of us are just pet owners who aren't otherwise qualified to give that kind of advice. If we were, we might have side jobs! It would be arguably irresponsible for us to say anything other than this worked for me but "go see the vet" or "you need to enlist a good trainer" because we simply aren't knowledgeable enough to really help given that we aren't vets or trainers.

Secondly, even those people who are vets and trainers (not sure if we have any veterinarians on the board?) or breeders may not feel it's ethical to give certain advice online. I know even with my trainer, who knows me and knows my dog, if I pose a question via email, I am often asked to bring it up in class because then the trainer can watch me with the dog and make an assessment. I could see that being a concern for our vets and trainers, and I know I for one would not risk my credibility giving advice like that over the internet to a stranger who will do lord knows what with it. Some stuff, maybe, but all of it would be very general and couched with, "...and you need to consult a professional offline who can work with you face to face."

I think it's only responsible of posters to recognize, _Hey I can't advise, so I'll refer._ Some stuff you simply have to pay for somehow, there's no getting around it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> The name calling was inappropriate.Your posts on the other hand are always enlightening and always get me thinking and learning more about how dogs think.


Wasn't calling anyone names that beeeeeeeeeitch was an expletive not a noun or adjective. 






That clear up stuff for you? BEEEEEEEEEEEITCH


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

The vibe that I get and even a few responses, is that " if you can't afford the best, don't bother owning a GSD " type of feel that I get from this place. Lots of great info on here, also lots of dog snobs here. My budget isn't very high. My $500 dollar AKC GSD is more than enough for me and my family. He's great with my kids ( especially my 4yo ). He's a pet. And that's all I wanted him for. I don't have the time or the resources to do classes or protective training. It's sounds cool. He gets plenty of love and exercise at my home. 
But the vibe that I get from this place is why I just mainly just look for info and minimum post. It's actually been a good while since I've been on here. 
That's been my experience so far. 
Not everyone is that way, but quite a few people here. It's discouraging. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh by and large I think people take away from the board what they want to?? And I'm fairly unique here, because I am an experienced dog owners "Bullies" and my first OS WL GSD (odd duck there also,among GSD's) was a foster rescue. Just a big furry dog with a pointy face (Boxer guy) and I got schooled!! 

Rank drive and people issues ... nothing I had ever encountered?? But we got er'done. Great dog and I luv the Breed! He found my weak points on issue I'd never seen?? And made me want to understand why what worked, worked and what my weakness were. 

Most likely in less capable hands or in a home with kids?? My guy would have been put down?? But as it were ... it worked out fine. 

So I did not come here looking for answers but I was looking for knowledge and I've found it! 

And I have a much better understand of GSD's in general and the why's of a well bred dog. 

I'm just a "pet person" but if I would were into the IPO or Mondo thing?? Most likely I'd look for a well bred from a good breeder?? I get that. No one needs to be "beat over" the head to understand that! Heck people with money a lot of them can't train there freaking dog, all kinds of "Hollywood" types show up on Cesar's shows. 

Seinfeld was on Cesar's show with his freaking Dachshunds for God's sake! He can afford any dog he wants and that's what he gets?? And then ... can't train them ... it's not about dollars it's about commitment and wanting to.

At anyrate I have a lot of experiance in getting it wrong and that's part of what I look for and try and help people avoid. Helping with that does not involve dollars.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I think you are going a little too far for me. I certainly agree with you about not breeding dogs indiscriminately and not patronizing backyard breeders, but I can't see that it affects the breed standard to adopt a dog from a shelter/rescue and give it a good home. It may or may not be purebred, it may or may not have problems, but every creature wants to live and have shelter, food, water and a little kindness. I have nothing but the highest admiration for those who adopt, foster and rescue.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Wasn't calling anyone names that beeeeeeeeeitch was an expletive not a noun or adjective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It might have but I'm not able to see the video.So nope.
Don't want to hijack the thread so I'll just go away now


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

newlie said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I think you are going a little too far for me. I certainly agree with you about not breeding dogs indiscriminately and not patronizing backyard breeders, but I can't see that it affects the breed standard to adopt a dog from a shelter/rescue and give it a good home. It may or may not be purebred, it may or may not have problems, but every creature wants to live and have shelter, food, water and a little kindness. I have nothing but the highest admiration for those who adopt, foster and rescue.


Sonic from the sunny south thanks you for that. :smile2:


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I gotta say, not one "dog person" I know is wealthy..... CERTAINLY not the ones who are heavily involved in sport 

"Get a vet" or "get a trainer"- almost always in response to threads like, "my puppy has had bloody poop for a week!" or, "my dog is growling at children!" When I needed a trainer in a situation that most certainly needed the advice of a professional and not the input of random people on the net, I shoveled dog poop in the kennel and worked off the hours. If you can't afford a vet, then no- you shouldn't own a dog. Has NOTHING to do with wealth. There are tons of threads on here for holistic remedies for non-emergent conditions. There are tons of threads on here about affordable brands of food that are actually of decent nutritional quality. There are also a lot of people who are not wealthy who make sacrifices in other areas of their lives so that they can feed their dog something decent.

"If you can't afford the best, you don't deserve a GSD"- actually, this people not wanting folks to support BYB's. I have a crappy BYB rescue and not one person here has looked down their nose at him. But if you brag about supporting shady breeding, you're going to get some shade and that has nothing to do with the money and everything to do with people ruining the breed. 

My cheap rescue dog has cost me a fortune in vet bills. The dog I saved and saved and saved for a very long time for from a reputable breeder hasn't cost me anything in vet bills. It's really all relative, and it's all moot to argue.

I've found that by and large, the people who feel that they're not welcome here, are the ones who tend to look for conflict or create it themselves. If people aren't welcoming, you should really evaluate how you've come across to them.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

newlie said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I think you are going a little too far for me. I certainly agree with you about not breeding dogs indiscriminately and not patronizing backyard breeders, but I can't see that it affects the breed standard to adopt a dog from a shelter/rescue and give it a good home. It may or may not be purebred, it may or may not have problems, but every creature wants to live and have shelter, food, water and a little kindness. I have nothing but the highest admiration for those who adopt, foster and rescue.


Are you talking to ipopro?

I kind of did a side eye with that, too. I mean yeah, I personally prefer to support a breeder whose philosophies and dogs I think are high quality. But I'm confused about the comments about quality of rescue, it doesn't seem like the "quality" of the dog should matter to anyone but the adopter. Does ipopro mean that a "poor quality" rescue dog will, like a "poor quality" breeder purchase, make the GSD breed as a whole look bad? That's my only guess as to what they were getting at. Still - even if I can see the point, why should the "quality" of a rescue dog matter to anyone but the person who is going to live with and care for the dog?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am all over your page. I drive a 98 Honda Accord, the 2004 Explorer is dead. Probably forever. Both have about 230k miles. 

About half my dogs have titles. 

I am probably not going to do 2-3k for diagnostic testing, but I spend 4-6k at the vet each year. 

I train with people who are AKC judges. 

I feed mid-range kibble. Extras are human food for the most part. 

If I win the sweepstakes, then I have a whole list of changes. I may improve my dog's comfort. May. The dogs, they could care less if I become a _have. _It will mean more grooming, more training, more shows. But dogs would rather run through the mud and roll on a dead frog than wear a bandana and drink from a fountain. 

Where it is important, I find a way to pay for it. But if I had kids, my priorities would be different. It may come down to paying for essentials/necessities for the dogs and the rather skinny dog budget would probably look emaciated. 

Dogs wouldn't care. They are just as happy chasing after a stick that is free than a geometrically designed toy manufactured in the U.S. out of dog-safe, dog appropriate, green materials. The dog class money might be gymnastic class money, but the dog is just as happy working in the parking lot while we wait for the kids, than in a class with other barking dogs. 

I know that I give advice about building kennels for dogs, and usually send people toward the kennels they sell at TSC, because I use them and have no complaints. But also because I believe that ponying up for a secure kennel, and doing it right can save you money in the long run. Dog walkers aren't cheap, replacing the couch and doing blockage surgery on a puppy isn't cheap either. Fixing a dog that has been run over by a car is not cheap. Being sued for your dog's transgression when it managed to crawl under or climb over a fence, well that isn't cheap either.

And, yes, there is a point where one needs to ask, "Can you afford a dog?" Not everyone is in a position to own a dog. People who can't take care of themselves, living with mom and dad, have roommates that they can't manage the rent without, living on section 8 housing. People who need government assistance to provide food, lighting, heat, housing, child-care -- well, they really shouldn't be out there acquiring dogs. Anyone can go through a rough period and need help. But that's not the time to go out looking for a dog. Because dogs, wherever you get them, cost money to support.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> Are you talking to ipopro?
> 
> I kind of did a side eye with that, too. I mean yeah, I personally prefer to support a breeder whose philosophies and dogs I think are high quality. But I'm confused about the comments about quality of rescue, it doesn't seem like the "quality" of the dog should matter to anyone but the adopter. Does ipopro mean that a "poor quality" rescue dog will, like a "poor quality" breeder purchase, make the GSD breed as a whole look bad? That's my only guess as to what they were getting at. Still - even if I can see the point, why should the "quality" of a rescue dog matter to anyone but the person who is going to live with and care for the dog?


Yes, sorry, I forgot to do the quote thing....lol


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

ipopro said:


> WoW - Amazing I must say.
> 
> I think most all know that there are good people in the world and not so good people in the world! So what you experience in a forum is a little of both as in life. If you don't understand No further explanation needed.
> 
> ...


I am totally with you in that people who want a certain thing should make an effort to educate themselves on the needs of said thing, in an ideal world. Makes sense.

In the interests of understanding you better - I'm confused about why you don't feel people should adopt dogs that are not of good quality. I'm totally with you on buying: I would prefer to support a breeding program I felt was of high quality with good ethics. I get you there. But the adoption? My only guess is that a badly bred dog with a lot of issues (whether purchased or rescued) can cause issues for the breed as a whole in terms of public relations/perception. Am I on target with that guess?

I can see your point. I'm a little uncomfortable with it. From a purely selfish standpoint, I'd like to agree because I don't let dogs with issues around my dog (yes I'm elitist there and I own it). Fewer people bringing dogs with issues into the community is obviously better for me and for my dog. But from an objective standpoint, should it matter to me what quality of shepherd someone across town decides to adopt from a rescue? If they don't care about the dog's bad elbows or fearful temperament and they are prepared to give it a loving home, is that any of my business?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well - I think that shoe fits on all kinds of feets round here. I've got a byb rescue maybe purebred. Semi-rescue WGSL imported and another WGSL with all the bells and whistles.

I do recall my dogs being put down (ad nauseum) more then once because of their slopey backs and froggy legs. 

I've been treated equally nice and equally bad regarding all of them, regardless of what they are worth. Just sayin'. :shrug:

eta: hence my avatar, island of misfits.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I third or fourth what everyone else is saying about adopting substandard dogs. All of my rescues were speutered. One of them passed a public access test and became a certified medical service dog. A throwaway off craigslist. 

They're already out there, the mutts, the BYB dogs. I would bet money that my first shelter aquisition was not a poorly bred dog, but he was high drive and whoever bought him couldn't handle him or get him to stop chasing the cat (something about that in the surrender paperwork). He even acted as if he had had some professional training.

Anyway. Saying dogs don't deserve to be adopted because they are poorly bred or currently have problems which may or may not be their fault at all...that doesn't seem fair at all.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Anyway. Saying dogs don't deserve to be adopted because they are poorly bred or currently have problems which may or may not be their fault at all...that doesn't seem fair at all.


I'd like to know for sure I'm correctly understanding them before I form an opinion. Like I said, I'm uncomfortable with what I think they're saying but I want to make sure I am not misinterpreting.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

All I'm going to say is whoever thinks dogs are expensive have clearly never had horses...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

atomic said:


> All I'm going to say is whoever thinks dogs are expensive have clearly never had horses...


That is what I tell my family...I could be into horses and not training dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Adopt? You mean, purchase a dog that someone gave up on? Well, they all aren't going to be top-quality. Some will have curly tails, or wonky ears, or a cow-lick. Some will have a weak back or shoddy hips. Some will be afraid of storms or afraid of the vet, or afraid of strangers in ball caps. Some will not like children, dogs, cats or men. Some will have an ear that is down or two. Some will sit when you say DOWN! Some will jump on you, and some will hide in the back of their kennel. 

Some will just be dogs that had first-time owners, and they developed some bad habits, and their owners felt over-whelmed. 

Some have problems that can be fixed.

Some have problems that can be managed. 

Some have problems that can be lived with. 

All of them have the capacity to be the apple of an owner's eye. 

Unfortunately, not all people have the capacity to see beyond the flaw or behavior. There is nothing wrong with getting a dog from a pound or shelter, or getting one that is being fostered in a recue, or getting one from a breeder. 

Yes, more people who are better off are going to go to the best breeders. But lots of people who fall into that category do get pets from pounds or rescues. 

Where you got your dog from says less about you that how you treat your dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

atomic said:


> All I'm going to say is whoever thinks dogs are expensive have clearly never had horses...


I have run a saddler/tack shop. 

Yes, you can put a lot of money into horses. 

I think some of us could give your average horse owner a run for their money on spending on our pets though. Ok, you need to either rent a stall or build a barn if you have horses, but, beyond that.... Oh, and you need a trailer to drag behind to go to shows.... Vet, farrier, trainer -- yeah it would be a fun hobby.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

atomic said:


> All I'm going to say is whoever thinks dogs are expensive have clearly never had horses...


Or a wife......am I allowed to say that in here? 

SuperG


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> That is what I tell my family...I could be into horses and not training dogs.


I recently told my boyfriend that it could be worse. I could be addicted to drugs and not dogs. This is all in reference to my ongoing battle to convince him that I _need_ a smooth collie. 

As for money and dogs. Ugh. I honestly don't want to know what I spend on them. I do know that it was a struggle when Sage was ill and I had lots of tests to pay for. Some of them (like the MRI) I passed on. It was tough when Russell had emergency surgery for intussusception($1600). I got Russell neutered at the spay and neuter clinic instead of at my regular vet. Sorry. I'm not paying almost $400 to neuter that goofy dog, when I can pay $115. I didn't just take him anywhere though. My vet has a brother who is also a vet, and has a spay/neuter clinic. I trust these guys. When I brought Russ in, this other vet said "oh I see you go to my brother". Oops hehe. He said, no worries, people do it all the time. I bought Carly and Sage from their breeder on payments. I'm saving up money for my mythical smooth collie. 

I have people all the time at the grooming shop say "oh, I don't pay this much for my own hair!". My father's dog Mercer eats grocery store dog food, gets taken to the vet when needed, and he installed a dog door. He's doing okay by his dog. He loves him. I may do things differently, but you know, it's all relative.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

SuperG said:


> Or a wife......am I allowed to say that in here?
> 
> SuperG


Yes, you can.

I've developed an NBA basketball game habit. Those tickets are pricey. It's the only other thing I spend money on. That Thunder/Mavs playoff game on Monday night made me so happy. First playoff game that I've been able to go to. It was magical. Even if it ate into my mythical smooth collie fund.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

SuperG said:


> Or a wife......am I allowed to say that in here?
> 
> SuperG


Happy wife, happy life! I don't think my husband wants to know what I spend on my dog, I'm not volunteering that information 0.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

atomic said:


> All I'm going to say is whoever thinks dogs are expensive have clearly never had horses...


Yeah I've heard that ... I do so want of these guys or girls???










But I've heard I'd have to learn "horse stuff??" A mini horse is not a over sized dog ... so sad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> I recently told my boyfriend that it could be worse. I could be addicted to drugs and not dogs. This is all in reference to my ongoing battle to convince him that I _need_ a smooth collie.
> 
> As for money and dogs. Ugh. I honestly don't want to know what I spend on them. I do know that it was a struggle when Sage was ill and I had lots of tests to pay for. Some of them (like the MRI) I passed on. It was tough when Russell had emergency surgery for intussusception($1600). I got Russell neutered at the spay and neuter clinic instead of at my regular vet. Sorry. I'm not paying almost $400 to neuter that goofy dog, when I can pay $115. I didn't just take him anywhere though. My vet has a brother who is also a vet, and has a spay/neuter clinic. I trust these guys. When I brought Russ in, this other vet said "oh I see you go to my brother". Oops hehe. He said, no worries, people do it all the time. I bought Carly and Sage from their breeder on payments. I'm saving up money for my mythical smooth collie.
> 
> I have people all the time at the grooming shop say "oh, I don't pay this much for my own hair!". My father's dog Mercer eats grocery store dog food, gets taken to the vet when needed, and he installed a dog door. He's doing okay by his dog. He loves him. I may do things differently, but you know, it's all relative.


I think I have spent more on Moofie's hair than on all the rest of my dogs' hair put together. Ok, you want a smooth collie and this boy's coat is probably more like a rough collie but still. No More HAIR!!! -- wait, there's a puppy.... got to have puppy... fuzzy puppy.... Hair Ball. No!!!!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> I think I have spent more on Moofie's hair than on all the rest of my dogs' hair put together. Ok, you want a smooth collie and this boy's coat is probably more like a rough collie but still. No More HAIR!!! -- wait, there's a puppy.... got to have puppy... fuzzy puppy.... Hair Ball. No!!!!


LOL, I've been a groomer for a million years, so having a coated dog is the LAST thing I want to have. The thought of having to deal with a big dog with a big bushy coat makes me want to scream! So, no rough collie here. Only smooths!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He needs to wear a sign: "GROOM ME!":


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## Alisova (Apr 25, 2016)

I cannot believe someone is saying GS are only for the wealthy! Yes like any pure bred from a reputable breeder can be pricey, I paid 3k for my GS and new vet bills, training, food, feed her canidae puppy but I'm also disabled and can't take a trip around the world but am not rich or have spare $ to buy the newest technology however I chose to spend the $ on a reputable breeder, had 4 GS in the past, know how loyal, smart and wonderful they can be with children etc. you don't need to be rich!!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

we all have our priorities on how we spend our hard earned money. Some people go out to eat, do many entertainment events and go on expensive vacations. Once you have dogs, those things are not important because being with the dogs is entertaining, and it is hard to go on a vacay when boarding or pet sitters is involved.
As others posted, the price of the dog is minimal to the cost of food, supplements, vetting, training, travel to train/trial and equipment or toys. I just bought a stupid ruffroot for over $20 and Gambit had it crumbled in about 10 minutes, then ran outside with it in his mouth to promptly loose it somewhere. The other dogs never got to try it!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Alisova said:


> I cannot believe someone is saying GS are only for the wealthy! Yes like any pure bred from a reputable breeder can be pricey, I paid 3k for my GS and new vet bills, training, food, feed her canidae puppy but I'm also disabled and can't take a trip around the world but am not rich or have spare $ to buy the newest technology however I chose to spend the $ on a reputable breeder, had 4 GS in the past, know how loyal, smart and wonderful they can be with children etc. you don't need to be rich!!!!


Rich/Poor is all relative. 

People who pay 3k for a dog probably don't think they are rich. 

People who couldn't pay 3k for a dog probably think a person who could is. 

People who think they can't pay 3k for a dog, might pay 3k easy for the booze for a wedding. 

People may save 3k by not eating out, not paying money for cable, driving around a 98 Honda accord, rather than buying something newer. 

Some people STILL couldn't afford that, but aren't poor. 

Poor is a state of mind, not the state of your bank account. 

Rich? I wouldn't know. All I know is most of well-to-do folks I know would refer to themselves as poor quicker than rich or even well-off. 

And then there are folks that have it all, and are always whining about how un-well-off they are. They think they're in a world of hurt because they can't afford dance lessons for their kid, or to put money in their 401k this year, or because they didn't get as big a bonus this year. People with 20/20 vision sometimes can't see past their nose.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ironically the OP has recieved pages of free advice for training issues including from professionals some of which charge $50-100 per hour for their services. 

Newsflash! You dont need piles of money, a strange urge to conflate your status with that of your dog or an inflated ego to find a decent dog and train it to a reasonable level. 

What you do need is the ability to *research, learn and implement that learning in practice* when it comes to selecting a dog, training that dog, and having said dog preform in certain venues. This requires *motivation and work ethic.*

The internet is a tremendous resource for dog owners and trainers. It can also be a place to perpetrate ignorance and whine about all the percieved unfairness in the dog world. What you make of it is up to you.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I grew up dirt poor. I wanted to ride horses. I saved up pennies at a time and bought a $50 pony named Cricket at a county auction. I built a bridle and got someone to give me a stitched up saddle. We took second at the fair. The other girls snickered at me and called me names, said Cricket was a nag, until I beat them. My folks sold Cricket to one of their fathers while I was at school. We needed the money.
It was a pattern I repeated. I worked hard. I taught myself how to ride, by reading and watching. I competed with auction nags, in hand me down gear. At 13 I retrained a retired pacer as a saddle horse, I also trained her filly for racing under the hand of an old trainer. I worked like a dog, but I learned.
Fast forward.
I went to work for a man who was breeding GSD's for his own use as security dogs. I wanted to be a dog handler. I watched, waited, studied. Attended all the classes and watched. The first dog I handled liked munching on his handlers. I had been watching the boss. I took the leash, said heel and started walking. He came up at me. I cracked him and kept right on walking. I was bleeding but **** it he heeled! I got the shot I wanted with a dog no one liked. I loved that dog. He was an ass, but I loved him. Until he was sold. There's that pattern.
Sabi came from nowhere, cost almost nothing. And was without a doubt the best dog I have ever had the privilege of putting a leash on. Her only flaw was me. The things I learned from her will benefit any other dog I touch.
I am definitely a have not. When Shadow needs stuff, I get a second or a third job.
I take what I can get for free and do what I can. My dogs don't have the best of everything, but they have my best. That's all any of us can do. I don't begrudge anyone who has more, I do understand that it's frustrating to have people advising things that some of us can't afford. I just try to keep the sentiment behind it in mind. They want to help.


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## Alisova (Apr 25, 2016)

Dear Sabis mom - you could not have said it any better! And our life journeys teach us what's important to us, what makes us happy! My GS puppy that just turned 10months old, she is what keeps me going, I have systemic lupus, and PTSD. 
Her love and devotion, wet kisses, funny antics, get me out of bed. 
There are many pet stores, especially those privately owned that are very generous with discounts on toys, supplies, free samples of food and treats!
Rich to me is not financial, but the richness of love from family, friends, and helping others make me feel as tho I have enriched lives of others as well as me!
You showed your family, kids in school or at fairs through your adult life that if you always see the glass as half full you will move forward. You made some sweet lemonade from lemons!!! Thank you for sharing your post!!!


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## Alisova (Apr 25, 2016)

Dear Onyx,
Yes agree 100% when it comes to money, how much one has, how they use or spend it regardless of the amount, it is individual choices. 
Thank you for sharing your insight


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What I find amusing about this whole thing is that a "status symbol" is all in your head.

Why?

Because there are so many people out there that think having a rescue is one step above buying from a breeder. There are people out there that buy from a breeder and call the dog a rescue. Because having a "rescue" is the new orange.

How many times have you run across someone who doesn't say "that's my dog". It's "that's my rescue". As if the dog is a thing. A "rescue". 

I adopted Jax from a shelter. We bought Sierra, Boxer, from a BYB breeder. She was 4# at 9 weeks, covered in bites from her littermates, nothing but bone. Not once have I ever described them as a "rescue" in general conversation. They are our dogs. They have meaning just for being dogs.

So where whichever shoe fits. But don't be deluded into thinking that only people who buy from a good breeder view their dogs as "status symbols". And remember that they are DOGS, not things. They don't care who their mommy and daddy is, they dont' care what activity they are doing. What they care about is being an important part of your pack.

Here's an excellent article for all.
When the Collars Come Off: Dog Sports, Egos and the Struggle for Power | The Collared Scholar


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Since this thread is getting a bit philosophical....regardless of one's financial status above and beyond the ability to provide for a dog's basic well-being....it doesn't matter if one has millions or very little at the end of the day. What matters to me is the riches the dog brings into my life.....$$$$ will never buy this bond, relationship, privilege and luxury.


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> What I find amusing about this whole thing is that a "status symbol" is all in your head.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


I clicked the "like" and it didn't work, so I am "liking" manually.....

SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> I'd like to know for sure I'm correctly understanding them before I form an opinion. Like I said, I'm uncomfortable with what I think they're saying but I want to make sure I am not misinterpreting.


LOL well ...if you want to be sure you fully understand an issue before forming an opinion ... that will be a game changer! I'll take that concept under consideration ... thanks.:laugh2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I clicked the "like" and it didn't work, so I am "liking" manually.....
> 
> SuperG


LOL ,,, I Like that way of Liking! :grin2:


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> That is what I tell my family...I could be into horses and not training dogs.


Truth. My poor husband- I'm into horses AND dogs. The amount of debt I've put us into in the last six months (horse had to have surgery for ovarian tumors), he always says I should pick up a cheaper hobby- like drugs.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have paid everywhere from 0 to 1500 for a dog I think if you spend time -happen to be in the right place at the right time or get to know the right people you could get a nice dog for free-have known of people who gave their dog away if they no longer wanted to do the sport-it was a dog who probably really needed to work. I have never had a dog who had major health issues-but I have had to spend significant amounts on the vet bills. I have spent far more on training and vet bills than the cost of the dog. My first dog was likely from a byb-but I liked him-the dog and the breeder- I am not advocating buying from a byb. But when you are deciding to buy a dog you can do what works for you-however there is a cost to owning a dog even if you get the dog for free


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Here's the thing that maybe we can pull away from this. SabisMom said that she doesn't get irritated when people give advice that she can't afford, they are trying to help, and that is excellent advice. 

But some of us do not stop there. Too often I have heard someone come back saying they can't afford to do that, and the retort by the helpful person is "well then, you shouldn't own a dog!" That makes us all sound like elite snobs. 

And I have probably done something similar, suggesting ways people can find the money for training and such. My feeling is that most dogs that do not make it in homes, and land in shelters or rescues, might not be there if only people would have found that money and trained the dog. And sorry, Blitzkrieg, I liked your post, and its true, but for someone coming here with a major problem, for someone who doesn't have dog experience, first time GSD owner, paying someone good to help them learn to handle, manage, train the dog is a life-saver. Not everyone can learn how to ride horses by reading books -- some of us have to fall on our butts a few times before we figure it out.

But the point is, that when we give advice, and then take offense when it isn't acted upon, we go from being helpful and welcoming to being kind of a closed group. And, we can harp all day on people to be nice to newbies, and so forth, but the truth of the matter is, the group is alive in that it is always bringing in new members and no way will a bajillion people all get onto the same page with stuff like that.

So the take away is to remember that not everyone here is full of internet etiquette. Some will be offensive without even trying. Some will be abrasive because that is who they are. If they break the rules, they can be sent to charm school and sometimes that helps, and sometimes they flunk out, but it doesn't change the fact that if you tell people you don't have $100 for training classes, or $2000 for diagnostic tests, someone might trot out that you-shouldn't-own-a-dog crap. 

Usually other people will come to your rescue and sometimes there will be an interesting row. And then the people who like to scrap get on board, and...

Well, it is the internet. Try not to take things so personally, consider the source, and try not to lower yourself to the level of whatever is causing you to be upset, and for those of us who do give advice, remember that it is a gift that can be accepted or not, acted upon or not. Once we put it out there, we've done our part, and what did I read on facebook today, "in life it is important to know when to stop arguing with people, and simply let them be wrong."


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> Here's the thing that maybe we can pull away from this. SabisMom said that she doesn't get irritated when people give advice that she can't afford, they are trying to help, and that is excellent advice.
> 
> *But some of us do not stop there. Too often I have heard someone come back saying they can't afford to do that, and the retort by the helpful person is "well then, you shouldn't own a dog!" That makes us all sound like elite snobs.*
> 
> ...



I have gotten incredible information from the members here. It has made a huge difference in my owner and handler skills. 

Excellent post, Selzer. And I can't help but think that what you said (that I bolded) is perhaps what StoneVintage was really getting at with her original post?


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Moriah said:


> And I can't help but think that what you said (that I bolded) is perhaps what StoneVintage was really getting at with her original post?



LOL! Good one, you're hilarious!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

viking said:


> LOL! Good one, you're hilarious!


I agree, this was the line by OP that stuck in my craw: "Average/low income - want a great pup but the prices are sky high. People that pay that much are only doing it for status..." as if a person shouldn't save or borrow money, give up internet or cable for a while, work two jobs, or make other sacrifices to own their dream dog for their own satisfaction and as if having different priorities made them elitists.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

where did SV go? No input after posting?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... I think I can safely say that I excel in offering free advice and pointing to trainers whose style I like. I solved my dogs issues on my own. 

When I wound up having my issues with my first OS WL GSD, Human Aggression and Rank Drive none of which "I" saw until he was in the 14 or 17 month range (he laid pretty low for 5 or 6 months and then it was on!!! Yeah I got blind sided! ...my bad. Pretty sure I missed a lot of signs of trouble brewing?? 

Nonetheless, I got it done. Not that hard ... I worked with the dog in front of me and made adjustments for my expectations ... not a Boxer, so people were not the best thing "EVER" to him. 

Had I come on here and been told "Find a Trainer" it would not have been met well. So for me I figure, well if I can do it so can others they just need to know where to look. 

So I guess I shoot for the one percenters?? Money is not a factor if you can DIY your own dog. I have no issues with "other's" providing a counter balance. Kinda how I roll.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> where did SV go? No input after posting?


She left. Notice her avator is blacked out. She just said "good bye" 
Post 552 in her thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...635538-sigh-leash-must-difficult-tool-56.html


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

She posted in the admin / new format thread that she was having problems with the site and her system kept crashing. Many of us had trouble with this site yesterday. Admin posted that there was some change or upgrade that they were working on to fix. I guess if she had stayed a few more hours she would have found that out.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sounds like the new forum upgrade was causing issues for her:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...re-upgrade-feedback-thread-5.html#post7832409

Mary Beth, if you click on the *(permalink)* next to a post number, and copy that address and paste it, it will take you directly to the post. Like this:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...leash-must-difficult-tool-19.html#post7832377

Little forum magic tidbit.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Mary Beth said:


> She left. Notice her avator is blacked out. She just said "good bye"
> Post 552 in her thread:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...635538-sigh-leash-must-difficult-tool-56.html


Wait what?? I see the dark avatar??? I was so busy screwing around with Unbuntu (Dual Booting) Win 10 I never noticed a problem on this site??

I can create my own "technical issues" turns out upgrading from Ubuntu 14 to 15 or 16 disables the video drivers ... who knew??


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Wait what?? I see the dark avatar??? I was so busy screwing around with Unbuntu (Dual Booting) Win 10 I never noticed a problem on this site??
> 
> I can create my own "technical issues" turns out upgrading from Ubuntu 14 to 15 or 16 disables the video drivers ... who knew??


Castlemaid linked to the comment she left on the thread about the website's upgrade.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

She may come back after some time to cool down. Curiosity brought me back after a few month break.

In the meantime I found this has turned into an interesting thread. Glad she started it. And I am glad someone started a spin off on ways to be thriftier and still take care of our dogs.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I have a GSD from a BYB that I paid $600 for, I have a Dalmatian from a very reputable show breeder that I paid $1,000 for and I have 2 cats that I rescued from a shelter that I paid less than $200 per cat for. All of them are very valued members of my little family, regardless of where they came from.

I am definitely not rich, not even close, I do own my home, I live alone, I drive a 2011 Ford Escape and I live in the ghetto. My animals receive vet care, they are fed a high quality kibble (trust me when I say that they eat better than I do), they have toys and beds, they get plenty of exercise and they get the majority of my time. They are taken better care of than most people I know that actually do have money and have dogs. 

I have major puppy fever and I know for sure that my next puppy, regardless of what breed it is, will be from a reputable breeder and I know it won't be cheap but I want to increase my chances of having a healthy, stable puppy by going through a good breeder. I will have to save up for a puppy because I don't just have $1,500+ sitting around that I can just spend willy nilly and won't miss.

Having a GSD or a Dalmatian are not "status symbols" to me and neither is having a BYB dog, reputable breeder dog or rescue dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Whatever dog or animal I own is worth gazillions to me so really don't care what anyone has to say about him or her. If I have issues with my dog and have trouble handling him or her - And at the time out of budget -I would shop around for a recommended but affordable trainer and know I have to save some money even if it's a lesson or two to get some hands on experience - there is also great advice on this forum in addition to that and videos to build on. If certain foods recommended to me and prices are too high- I now know what to look for in other foods that fit my budget and figure what is most important. I noticed stone vintage changed her picture numerous times they were all great- not crazy about this black dot but the message was dramatic. Kind liked that but hopes SV comes back she starts great threads and has much to offer. The weather is great though so I hope she is enjoying it with summer.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> *Dogs don't care. They really don't care how much you spend on them. My dogs wouldn't know the difference really between a good game of tug and working at the club with a helper. Each fills fairly similar needs.
> *


This is right on!!!! 

Our experiences: My sister found Shane, our 14+ year old GSD from a shelter (as a pup)...He was fully papered, certified (?) and actually purchased by the former owner and shipped from Germany ($$$). This owner, however, didn't like his temperament and put his cigars out on the back of his legs. My sister got him from a shelter when he was 1, all papers included, ($$). She moved and was unable to keep him and he joined my crew (a Ridgie and later, Leo) and has been with me ever since (got him for free!!). With other health issues and daily meds as well as vet bills and Rx food, he is about $400 a month---wouldn't have it any other way. He has been my companion and a great dog. 

Leo was part of an "oops" litter--free from a friend. Training was imperative and food is a minimal cost; vet fees are nominal as well.

Both these pups are part of my family. I agree, they wouldn't know and they don't care about amenities that they receive as long as they are cared for, not abused, walked/exercised, fed, and can sleep uninhibited. 

I think there will always be some sort of contention amongst GSD owners---crate vs. no crate, leash vs. non-leash, premium food vs. raw vs. grocery/feed store food, etc etc etc. I have gained insights into the GSD breed that is priceless from the boards and am very thankful for the variety of GSD owners that partake in advice and conversations on the boards. 

My $.02


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree, this was the line by OP that stuck in my craw: "Average/low income - want a great pup but the prices are sky high. People that pay that much are only doing it for status..." as if a person shouldn't save or borrow money, give up internet or cable for a while, work two jobs, or make other sacrifices to own their dream dog for their own satisfaction and as if having different priorities made them elitists.


Yeah - that really bugged me. I'll admit it's personal, though. I have heard that so often from people who have accused me of not wanting to rescue because a rescue doesn't have "status" like a purebred. No, I just wanted a very specific dog in terms of temperament and capability, so I got that dog. The second you (general you) start accusing me of getting her for status, I will become quite unhappy with you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Yeah - that really bugged me. I'll admit it's personal, though. I have heard that so often from people who have accused me of not wanting to rescue because a rescue doesn't have "status" like a purebred. No, I just wanted a very specific dog in terms of temperament and capability, so I got that dog. The second you (general you) start accusing me of getting her for status, I will become quite unhappy with you.


IMO, it is the failure of most people to do the proper research on the expected traits of a breed they take home, behaviorally and physically, and then not buying from a breeder that produces the appropriate qualities, that create the shelter problem in the first place.

Who dumps a wonderful dog that is a great fit for the family?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> Mary Beth, if you click on the *(permalink)* next to a post number, and copy that address and paste it, it will take you directly to the post. Like this:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...leash-must-difficult-tool-19.html#post7832377
> 
> Little forum magic tidbit.


Thanks for the tip! That will make replies easier


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Seriously though... My dogs do not cost me $600 a month just in upkeep. And that is for one horse, where I do all the dirty work of cleaning him and his stall/turn out on a daily basis. Let's not get into if we go to an endurance ride, or god forbid a vet visit.

I definitely am not rich, I do make good money but I pay for everything on my own and while I go without in other areas my animals never suffer. For instance my vehicle is a 93 Chevy Caprice with 200k miles on it. A mechanical beast but luxurious not even for an instant. I will say the cheapest one is the bird. His pellet mix lasts a month and is about $20, and he also eats the healthy parts of my food though he would eat it all if I let him. I can make his toys out of certain woods and cardboard for petes sake.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Muskeg said:


> *Dogs don't care. They really don't care how much you spend on them. My dogs wouldn't know the difference really between a good game of tug and working at the club with a helper. Each fills fairly similar needs.*
> 
> You can get the equivalent of a training class just by hanging out near a shopping center and working OB.
> 
> ...


Well, I have to disagree :wink2:
Karlo loves tug, but wants the fight with the helper if he had the choice. He also would rather have a much nicer ride....everytime we leave the field he'll go to a cool Jeep Wrangler or something,anything than my boring Oddyssey. 
But, yea, there are many things to do with our dogs that don't cost anything more than treats. Tracking is my favorite 'free' thing!


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## gloomydog (Oct 23, 2012)

I think I understand what everyone is saying. In general if you love your dog you just try to do what you can, to the best of your ability.

Some advice given here may sound like they're not for those who can't afford it, but sometimes you just have to say "i can't afford that, what's a cheaper alternative" and there are others who may have found workarounds.

I'm just starting off in my career but being DINKS we have a lot of disposable income which can go to our furball, so he gets the best, within reason. Our good friend is a younger woman still in college, and she also wants to do the best within her ability for her GSD. She still feeds him raw despite the cost, she took a job at a vet to save on his treatment costs, etc. Different routes can be found to the same destination.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Didnt read all the comments but I dont think you get to be rich once youve got a large breed dog ( not even mentioning the two pups we have got). Even if you were rich beforehand ? Just food alone costs 370 dollars a month that is not including probiotics vitamins treats etc. Also theres additional vet visits with their sensitive tummies and xrays and teeth problems...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I rescued GSDs for years, both fosters and dogs we kept. In the end, the fosters ended up costing as much or more than the pure breds because they have had more health and behavior problems. I have never had to use a private trainer until I had a rescued dog. Now that I have used one, I realize it's worth it, even if I have to save and give up something else.

In answer to the OP, I think most dog owners do the best they can with the budgets they have to work with. We can't all afford the priciest dogs and they aren't necessarily the best pets for us.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I think most dog owners do the best they can too. When I posted this, it was not show an opinion one way or the other, because I see both sides and I am living both sides with Summer. I've seen and heard from all different levels. The only thing that concerned me, particularly with the newbies is that sometimes the recommendations can get very pricey. 

The points I noted were bits and pieces from conversations online as well as in my own life experience & thru owning 4 GSD's. In my travels and experience, it seems that some who do less for their dogs don't know any better but some will put up argument to good suggestions - not because they don't want to do a thing, but affordability is skewing their thinking, perhaps on a level that's so ingrained, they don't realize it's forming so many of their opinions. 

I didn't intend my post to come across as a personal opinion that holding standards in breeding, training or health care be discounted in any way..... There is a best and there is a what is possible for many in the pet community. From what I have learned here, in the last year and a half and what I initially tried to share with my dog owning friends - well, that's when I came to the "wall" and gave it more thought. My attempt at posting this - was only to share the disparity of thoughts that compel our actions and what is often at the real root of the problem. They are not my thoughts but a hodge podge of many different opinions people have expressed. No thought at all or implying any specific source of group of people..... 

I cannot talk to my dog owning friends about what I learn here. They shut down... much as we see here with some new GSD pet owners. If I were to approach them with the theory that "well, if you sacrifice and really commit and want it bad enough" you too, can provide proper health care and training for your dog"..... I would be putting the onus on them that they are not doing enough for their dog and I am personally judging them. There is a wall - for years I was on one side because of ignorance.... now I know better and have made several changes...... but I cannot change opinions of friends that have been doing things a certain way for decades... their points to me were mentioned in my post and they are not mine. Why it was taken as my personal opinion.... I will never know.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

I believe that your dreams/visions become your reality.

"If you think you CAN do a thing or you think you CAN'T do a thing you're right!"
HENRY FORD
:surprise:


LIVE YOUR DREAMS!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I cannot talk to my dog owning friends about what I learn here. They shut down... much as we see here with some new GSD pet owners. If I were to approach them with the theory that "well, if you sacrifice and really commit and want it bad enough" you too, can provide proper health care and training for your dog"..... I would be putting the onus on them that they are not doing enough for their dog and I am personally judging them. There is a wall - for years I was on one side because of ignorance.... now I know better and have made several changes...... but I cannot change opinions of friends that have been doing things a certain way for decades... their points to me were mentioned in my post and they are not mine. Why it was taken as my personal opinion.... I will never know.


Well I say ... thank you for explaining the thoughts behind the thread and as to family and friends and there badly behaved .... Dogs.

It's kinda like ...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well I say ... thank you for explaining the thoughts behind the thread and as to family and friends and there badly behaved .... Dogs.
> 
> It's kinda like ...


That is the point with seeing both sides. Their dogs are not badly behaved or in ill health....

If they do get a dog that is badly behaved or an ill health dog that needs a special diet, training or health care - they make the decision very quickly in some cases and that dog is no longer alive. My experiences in Texas and Idaho for the last 30 years - that's what happens to a "problem dog" and they get another....

You get a dog that has special diet needs (bullet in the head in the woods), same with behavior problems or anything else. These realities still constitute a large population of dog owners in rural areas such as mine.

These are the type of dog owners I have known. So, it is easy for me to see why some disparity exists from one extreme to another..... I have always been horrified about their actions and expectations but learned after several years of tear down drag out arguments that their ideals are there, ingrained and not subject to change....

I can't find a way to talk to a person that has dogs and their role and easy disposal as a known way of life. That's like trying to teach a Viking how to Google. They're not bad - just different. 

That's what I was trying to show..... Not condemning, because outside of animal abuse, that is futile. But, there are differences and the theory wants and wishes always come true no longer floats with me - life happens, different opinions happen and I cannot judge unless I see outright abuse or immediate harm from ignorance.....

Kids and Pets - I have gone to jail standing up for abuse.... but with dogs, not feeding the best food or not the best health care or training is not something I stand on and get involved in a very close and personal way. There are different sets of values, and money is certainly a consideration - I can't change that.....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> That is the point with seeing both sides. Their dogs are not badly behaved or in ill health....
> 
> If they do get a dog that is badly behaved or an ill health dog that needs a special diet, training or health care - they make the decision very quickly in some cases and that dog is no longer alive. My experiences in Texas and Idaho for the last 30 years - that's what happens to a "problem dog" and they get another....
> 
> ...


Very different then my experiences, some of my friends dogs are just badly behaved curs with ignorant owners. But they (dogs) aren't going anywhere. So yeah quite a bit different.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Very different then my experiences, some of my friends dogs are just badly behaved curs with ignorant owners. But they (dogs) aren't going anywhere. So yeah quite a bit different.


Yea, it's pretty bad. I grew up in San Diego beach area and our dogs were our best friends and companions. To have moved to other parts of the country where they still do the same "elimination of a flawed dog"- same in their minds as putting an ill or not producing stock animal down - I will never comprehend yet it is a way of life..... and that because the GSD is a working/farm dog is a part of their reality.

My post was just trying to shake out some of the wild diversity in owners of this breed and help connect with the huge "disconnect" on how these dogs are treated and managed..... All people with all thoughts on how a GSD is to be treated are not the same....

Lol - I tried to explain once after my original post and just gave up and watched all the posts with people personally offended at "my attack on them" and so forth go out of control..... That's why there were no further posts from me on this topic..... I just watched it spiral out of control - in further proof to me that there is a huge divide on both sides to this breed and it's future....

It is ironic to me however, that advocacy for culling litters (as was most obviously practiced by the founder of the breed) is more likely practiced by the ignorant farmer or rancher, then the breeders up front.... see! another conflict in my mind due to my experiences - not what I read.....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... it's good clarification of your purpose for "others." But I'm good, my focus is pretty narrow "behavioural problems" not really sure how I even got here??


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Just know that what you experienced in other areas doesn't necessarily make it true for the whole area. "I" live in that awful old Texas and sorry, that doesn't really ring true for any of the pet owners I know. I personally have spent $500 in the past six weeks just on an infection that we can't shake. I spent over $700 in the first month I got a cat (for free). So ... yeah. ... sweeping generalizations are...generally wrong.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Galathiel said:


> Just know that what you experienced in other areas doesn't necessarily make it true for the whole area. "I" live in that awful old Texas and sorry, that doesn't really ring true for any of the pet owners I know. I personally have spent $500 in the past six weeks just on an infection that we can't shake. I spent over $700 in the first month I got a cat (for free). So ... yeah. ... sweeping generalizations are...generally wrong.


Excellent point. I also got the impression that the OP is basing her observations on a very limited group of ranchers and farmers. Not all farmers and ranchers will kill a dog that isn't working out. My Sting's breeder in North Dakota recently had posted on her website in the adoption section, a 4-year old gsd who was too aggressive for herding cattle. The rancher was looking for another home for the dog and it was found. Going over to cats, my grandma grew up on a farm, and had a house cat - Boots. Boots would not leave the chickens alone, instead of drowning Boots, he lived a long and happy life as an indoor cat. Aside from the generalizations, I do think the OP made some very interesting observations and gave much food for thought which her threads do.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

What an interesting discussion. Although I don't entirely agree with OP, they make a valid point. I think when someone comes on here looking for advice it's only natural to give them the "best" advice we can. If someone says I'm very interested in competing in Schutzhund and is looking for puppy recommendations, we are going to direct them to the best breeders. If someone's dog has serious behavioral issues, it's only natural to recommend a trainer. If someone asks about what to feed their dogs, people are going to recommend raw or high quality commercial chow. I don't think that's being "snobby".

And rich vs poor is ultimately relative. I know a number of people who are pretty seriously into schutzhund - I wouldn't classify any of them as rich. We're not exactly talking polo ponies here. However, I look at my daughter, who is just out of college and only earning a couple of dollars over minimum wage. She doesn't own a car, almost never goes out to eat and is vegan so she eats mostly fruits and vegetables. Even so, there is no way she could spend $2000 on a dog, or afford to feed it, much less afford vet bills if the dog became seriously ill. So it's not a question of her just changing her priorities. To her people who have $2000 to spend on a dog and who can potentially cover a $3-4,000 vet bill are certainly a lot "richer" than her.

Ultimately, some people may have goals that are incompatible with their finances. If you are just starting out, or struggling financially it really may be difficult for you to provide the bare minimum you need to be a responsible pet owner. Similarly, if you want to be successful at schutzhund you are going to have to spend some money getting a dog from a breeder that trials their dogs and has had some success. And you are going to have to spend money (and time) to train your dog. I think it's completely fair to point this out. Some people really can't afford to own a dog or to do schutzhund/agility, etc.

Having said that, lots of people buy dogs for $100 or get a dog from the shelter and end up with a wonderful, loving pet. I've owned two rescue dogs that were healthy, had terrific temperaments and made great pets. But it's more of a crapshoot, so when someone comes here looking for advice, particularly if they don't initially make it clear that they don't have a lot of money to spend, it's only natural that people are going to recommend going to a quality breeder that spends money to insure that their dogs are healthy and have solid temperaments. And to be a quality breeder costs money, money you need to recoup when you sell your puppies.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

John C. said:


> What an interesting discussion. Although I don't entirely agree with OP, they make a valid point. I think when someone comes on here looking for advice it's only natural to give them the "best" advice we can. don't think that's being "snobby".




I don't either John. Just wish there was a way that people could be a little more open about their financial situation if it poses restrictions so alternative suggestions could be offered. On the same token, if a newbie is hedging and offering resistance to good suggestions... maybe the benefit of doubt could be given that they're not just jerks but the affordability issue is making them backpedal... But, I can't think of any ways to tactfully discover if this is a problem without the risk of really ticking them off.....

If I could ask my friends - If you hit the lottery, what would you do differently for your dog?.... I would expect to get a different set of answers than they offer now.... this is not to say they are hypocrites but that financial restrictions do play a role in opinions even if the person is not really aware of it.....


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I may be missing the point but it doesn't seem that complicated. If someone has a dog challenge, it might cost money to fix or treat it. If we take money out of the equation, we can't give the best help. Sure, you can luck into finding free or low cost help. Paying a lot of money doesn't mean one will find the best trainer. But if someone can't afford any extra expenses with their dogs, it's kind of futile to ask for training suggestions, unless the person asking is willing to work at the options suggested. I've noticed a lot of people want quick fixes without any effort or cost. When we had difficult problems, we coughed up money for training. It was that simple. If someone can't afford anything and they have a problem they can't fix without help, how can we even begin to make suggestions? I'm finding myself less interested in offering suggestions here. It takes a lot of time and thought to reply and more than half of my responses are ignored or argued with. That takes a lot of the fun out of it. I also find these hypothetical discussions don't usually result in action here.


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## Sheera67 (Mar 29, 2015)

Not everyone wants to just admit defeat though and go of to a so called "trainer "

Some people including myself would like to try to fix the problem or issue ( training wise ) on there own , that's why I get a little pissed at some people on here when you ask about behaviour problems there first answer is " go see a trainer " 

I would like to hear about the methods people used to solve issues rather than just " go see a trainer " 

If you yourself( general ) have been to a trainer then share what the trainer done to try to curb the behaviour issue . I think 50% of trainers know as much about gsd dogs as they do about the number of craters on the moon 

The op does make some really good points that I agree with , also some points I don't , but the discussions resulting in the op statement have been wonderful


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Sheera67 said:


> Not everyone wants to just admit defeat though and go of to a so called "trainer "
> 
> Some people including myself would like to try to fix the problem or issue ( training wise ) on there own , that's why I get a little pissed at some people on here when you ask about behaviour problems there first answer is " go see a trainer "
> 
> ...


the reason that people say "go to a trainer" is that you really can't give advice without seeing the dog and owner interacting in person. There are cues that the owner may not see, body language that they are exhibiting without realizing it that is affecting the situation. 

Then there is the fact that what works for one dog/owner won't work for another. There are numerous things that can effect a training situation and that the owner may be leaving out of their stories - sometimes on purpose. Some owners will exaggerate a dogs behavior while minimizing their own. Others will greatly underestimate what their dog is doing. 
Some simply can't see the forest for the trees. And an outside, unbiased eye that can point out these potential triggers can make a huge difference


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sheera67 said:


> Not everyone wants to just admit defeat though and go of to a so called "trainer "
> 
> Some people including myself would like to try to fix the problem or issue ( training wise ) on there own , that's why I get a little pissed at some people on here when you ask about behaviour problems there first answer is " go see a trainer "
> 
> ...


 
Unfortunately, this is the internet, and we don't know you from Adam. Maybe 50% of the trainers know as much about GSD dogs as they do about the number of craters on the moon. But 99% of the people asking complete strangers on the internet how to fix behavioral problems of their dogs, are people that need a live person to help them out. 

"Admit defeat" really? So if your dog's stomach looking really full and your dog is acting funny, is it admitting defeat to take him to the vet? 

So, what you want is for OTHER people who went and paid for professional advice, to give you that professional advice for free. Why not? If it was that easy, then, it really wouldn't be so bad. We all want something for nothing. The problem is that no two dogs are alike. Yes, what Trainer A told Owner B to do with his dog, might work for a dozens of dogs, maybe hundreds of dog-owner pairs. But it might not work for you and and your dog, because the symptom (behavior) maybe be rooted in something completely different -- pain, territorial aggression, resource guarding, whatever. And it can be that how Owner B fixed his dog, will actually make your dog worse. 

People who are trying to fix their dogs can be helped by someone out the outside looking into the situation, rather than being mired in the situation and trying to dig yourself out of it. And a trainer assesses both the dog and the handler and suggests techniques with respect to both ends of the leash. A trainer can see how a dog responds to what your body is doing, that you don't even know is happening. 

We say, find a good trainer, because it is the quickest way to get you from where you are to where you want to be. We say, find a good trainer, because you are on the internet looking for help and what you have been doing hasn't been working. We say, find a good trainer , because it is really the responsible thing to say. We don't know you from Adam, but we like your dog, and we want what is best for him.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sheera67 said:


> Not everyone wants to just admit defeat though and go of to a so called "trainer "
> 
> Some people including myself would like to try to fix the problem or issue ( training wise ) on there own , that's why I get a little pissed at some people on here when you ask about behaviour problems there first answer is " go see a trainer "
> 
> ...


Why would you get angry when someone gives you advice that you have asked for? No one is required to give advice an OP wants but we do like to share experiences. I think you mean well but you have no idea how your post sounds to those of us who have spent a lot of time learning about dog behavior and a lot of money on trainers. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I have spent $500 on training (just an example I pulled out of the air, it's not a real number) you are saying I owe it to someone posting to tell them everything I paid to learn? Actually, I have done that because I wanted to at times but not because someone demands it.

When it sounds like a dog has the potential to hurt itself, another dog or a person if a behavior isn't correct, I always tell the owner to pay for a private specialist, not just a trainer. That is the responsible thing to do.

In my personal experience one of the best ways to learn to a technique is to find a good YouTube video by or of a good trainer.


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## Sheera67 (Mar 29, 2015)

"Admit defeat" really? So if your dog's stomach looking really full and your dog is acting funny, is it admitting defeat to take him to the vet? "



Read the post , I said training wise not health wise


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lol. These last few posts display very well IMO the complexities in a newbie trying to navigate these waters.....

There are some, that have more time and tenacity than money. They tend to make things work where others will quit and place blame for failure everywhere but themselves....some persist though, eventually achieve their goals - winning ugly maybe... but they get it done...

There are posters that get frustrated and angry with newbies and feel their efforts aren't rewarded and so quit or get bitter and it reflects in their posts.... But, there are some here, that... If you are stubborn, but without the ability to financially do what needs to be done.... will stick it out - through the ignorant times, through the denial times and through the times when you know just enough to claim that their methods suck because they are cruel to the dog.... They still stay with you, because you are still here trying to do the work.... You don't have to like what they say and it's hard as a newbie but if you stick - they stick and that has high value to me.

I would like to thank Selzer and Bailiff for this. I don't know where I'd be without them. They have given me so much - and a lot of that first year was me kicking and whining all the way. But, they grounded me because their advise is rock solid and does not waiver. They stand alone. 

To say this site cannot provide essential support for the willing but financially challenged GSD owner, is IMO not accurate. I bumbled and argued my way along with these two over the last two years and I can say hands down - my dog does have a flaw, yes with DA but in every other respect, she has turned out more than I could have hoped for - these two regular posters saved me from making grave mistakes that would have resulted in a very sad wreck of a dog. 

There's tons of great suggestions on this site and I do believe that the average pet owner with limited resources can come here and learn, if they are tenacious, the least bit open minded and "prove" to those with experience that they are not willing to give up.....

It takes a very strong, confident person to continue their advise regardless of outcome or taking things personally to get the job done. Just want to have this post for the newbies - if you really want it and have limited resources - don't let anyone run you off from here.... persist and yea, sometimes you can get something of high value for free.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sheera67 said:


> Not everyone wants to just admit defeat though and go of to a so called "trainer "
> 
> Some people including myself would like to try to fix the problem or issue ( training wise ) on there own , that's why I get a little pissed at some people on here when you ask about behaviour problems there first answer is " go see a trainer "
> 
> ...


One thing to think about, its easy to talk about reward based training of things, because it isn't a huge deal when something doesn't exactly work, to try again. Corrections or anything requiring physical punishment is really tough to explain and tell someone accurately whats appropriate for their dog and what they, the owner can be capable of doing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sheera67 said:


> "Admit defeat" really? So if your dog's stomach looking really full and your dog is acting funny, is it admitting defeat to take him to the vet? "
> 
> 
> 
> Read the post , I said training wise not health wise


I think you know I read your post. 

Training is a part of health. It is just as important. People do not get this. They will spend $130 for a vet visit about some bumps on a dog's stomach, but spending $110 for a set of training classes seems unfathomable. 

Most dogs do not die because of some bumps on their stomach. 

Lack of training is probably the single most common reason most adolescent dogs are turned into a pound or shelter. Whether you like it or not, a lot of those dogs die. Cause of death: lack of training. 

Training is a health concern. Behaviors can be related to overall health directly, but an untrained dog is a danger to himself and others. An untrained dog is not necessarily a happy dog either. Those behaviors are symptoms of non-well-being, disease if you like. A well trained dog is a pleasure to live with, and changes in health are more readily noticed, diagnosed, and treated. 

We have to change our mindset about paying for training. And, we have to require more from trainers as well. But that is beyond the scope of this post, and I don't want to completely derail it.


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