# Original GSD Or today's GSD.



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

While looking at some early dogs in the GSD pedigree I was surprised to see pics of some of the dogs. I myself prefer straight back, hocks not so angled. What does everyone think of the looks of these dogs compared to some of today's GSD'S.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Few more


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

They look almost sway backed but they aren't stacked.


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## gsdhistorian4 (Nov 30, 2016)

It's not that todays GSD are bad.. it's a matter of finding the right lines.. dogs were never meant to have an angulated back the way you see in showline GSD.. most DDR and Sable GSD represent the REAL German Shepherd... Straight back and a solid build combined with natural protectiveness and a calm but alert personality is what it should be.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

They look like mals and dutchies


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

gsdhistorian4 said:


> It's not that todays GSD are bad.. it's a matter of finding the right lines.. dogs were never meant to have an angulated back the way you see in showline GSD.. most DDR and Sable GSD represent the REAL German Shepherd... Straight back and a solid build combined with natural protectiveness and a calm but alert personality is what it should be.


I don't think you can pigeonhole it to DDR and sable gsds being real gsds....


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

gsdhistorian4 said:


> It's not that todays GSD are bad.. it's a matter of finding the right lines.. dogs were never meant to have an angulated back the way you see in showline GSD.. most DDR and Sable GSD represent the REAL German Shepherd... Straight back and a solid build combined with natural protectiveness and a calm but alert personality is what it should be.


Yeah, I never meant to imply that all of today's GSD were bad. Or any for that matter. To each their own. I just prefer the look of some of these over some of the show lines of today


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Angulation is necessary~ just not to the extreme. Form follows function.
The topline should not be so extreme that the reach is impeded. This has been discussed over and over on this board.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> Angulation is necessary~ just not to the extreme. Form follows function.
> The topline should not be so extreme that the reach is impeded. This has been discussed over and over on this board.


Yep, I never intended those to become a straight back vs slope back discussion. I myself prefer straight back. But like I said to each house their own. I was just surprised to see old pics on there. Some look like German Shepherds some have a bit different look.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is a difference from the topline and the back .


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Well, my dog's back is straight.

It just isn't parallel to the ground.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

WateryTart said:


> Well, my dog's back is straight.
> 
> 
> 
> It just isn't parallel to the ground.




Mine too, lol. Including this gorgeous 4 month old puppy. Top line straight as a board.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I am curious why even the working line dogs of today do seem to have much more rear leg an Gulati on than those early dogs. Those early dogs are very straight in the hocks. and actually to me they look taller and less muscular. Maybe muscular is the wrong word but they look finer. lighter weight.

Were those early dogs less capable at some things due to that build or....?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

The breed was still young, types hadn't been developed, foundation breeds still had a presence. Every breed has evolved and appearances change - to what degree and for what purpose, varies.

Personally, not even focusing on their backs, I prefer a lot of modern day working line dogs over these. That said, the lack of stack or at least some sort of uniformed positioning, really makes it difficult to compare.

But for what it's worth, my boys very much resemble the structure of some of the dogs pictured.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

something else I would like to know if any of you historians would educate me...

when was schutzhund started and what led them to decide that protection and tracking should be tested and not herding. I think the HGH is also suitable to prove a dog's breed worthiness in Germany? But I guess I wonder at what point did this dog really become used for protection or police so much that schutzhund became the test more widely used than herding. or maybe it is not more widely used. Maybe related to the decline of that type of sheep farming?


I know what shutzhund means and so I guess it makes sense there is no herding component...I guess I just wonder at what point did this breed really deviate from being mostly a herding dog anymore to being used more and/or judged by the standards of schutzhund

I don't know if this is even making any sense. maybe I should just get a book on the history of the GSD


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> Mine too, lol. Including this gorgeous 4 month old puppy. Top line straight as a board.


not good.

I think my comment "there is a difference from the topline and the back ." might have been misunderstood.

I wasn't confirming that there is a difference over time from early development to our modern version.

I was saying that the topline , which shouldn't be flat as a table , actually has three parts.
The wither, the back , and the croup, which flow into each other .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I am curious why even the working line dogs of today do seem to have much more rear leg an Gulati on than those early dogs. Those early dogs are very straight in the hocks. and actually to me they look taller and less muscular. Maybe muscular is the wrong word but they look finer. lighter weight.
> 
> Were those early dogs less capable at some things due to that build or....?


I dont know what on earth autocorrect did here. This was supposed to say rear leg angulation


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

cdwoodcox said:


> Yep, I never intended those to become a straight back vs slope back discussion. I myself prefer straight back. But like I said to each house their own. I was just surprised to see old pics on there. Some look like German Shepherds some have a bit different look.


About once or twice a month I run into someone who comments on how my dog "looks like a German Shepherd is supposed to look." (Actually she _doesn't_, she's short in the croup and isn't angulated enough to make it in the ring.)

When we benched at the State Fair, I had one guy aggressively commenting on how much he didn't like "those slant-backed show dogs" and my dog's back didn't slant, did it? I made her stand up so he could see that it doesn't look that pronounced when she's just standing there. Then I put her in an approximate stack and showed him that yes she does have a sloping topline, it just isn't as extreme as people think it is. Granted mine would never have been showable, but honestly, I think sometimes that some members of the general public look at sound, well balanced ASL dogs and see jackrabbits.


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## der-schweinestall (Apr 26, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> something else I would like to know if any of you historians would educate me...
> 
> when was schutzhund started and what led them to decide that protection and tracking should be tested and not herding. I think the HGH is also suitable to prove a dog's breed worthiness in Germany? But I guess I wonder at what point did this dog really become used for protection or police so much that schutzhund became the test more widely used than herding. or maybe it is not more widely used. Maybe related to the decline of that type of sheep farming?
> 
> ...


 


As far as I know, the first Schutzhund Test in Germany took place in 1906. But the German Shepherd was still used in all parts.
A real turn came with the beginning of the Second World War. The rules and conditions changed in the SV (the big German Shepherd Organization). All the Shepherd Dogs were drawn in as working dogs and they were used during the war. There were almost no German Shepherds cause nearly all died in the war. So, a new rule started: licensed dogs were allowed to stay with the breeder so new Shepherd Dogs were born.They put more emphasis on protective dogs than on herding. It´s better for war


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Schutzhund was developed around the 20's to determine breed suitability. The HGH degree ( herding) was also acceptable for determining breed suitability. The HGH test in Germany also had a bitework part. So the traits that the early SV felt that should be present in the breed are consistent and have been for nearly one hundred years.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> Schutzhund was developed around the 20's to determine breed suitability. The HGH degree ( herding) was also acceptable for determining breed suitability. The HGH test in Germany also had a bitework part. So the traits that the early SV felt that should be present in the breed are consistent and have been for nearly one hundred years.


What was the purpose of the bitework in HGH?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that as well as society changed.

how are you going to keep them down on the farm after they've seen Pareee (paris)

decline in wool since new fibres were developed --- total society less agricultural , so less need
for a herding dog .

but ! here is the beauty of it the GSD amalgamated different functions which the local , useful,
herding / guarding breeds had.

in the von Stephanitz book there is much discussion about the dogs versatility and utility for OTHER
purposes


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What was the purpose of the bitework in HGH?


It is/was a defense of handler element, including a helper. This year (American HGH trial) it was done by Don Yelle.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I would also like to know more about bite work in the HGH. The original concept was anot all around dog who could herd and be guardian of the flock/farm, right? 

After I asked the question about when and how the breed deviated from herding and went into protection/police/war I found a website explaining that [email protected] saw the decline of sheep farming already and was looking for other applications of the dog as a working dog.

I find it sad that service work (seeing eye) was an early job of this breed and so many organizations have moved away from them on favor of labs and goldens. I would like to see the GSD doing this more.

I find it interesting that this breed can Excell in two seemingly contradictory venues, police and medical service work where the dog must be tolerant of the public and never inappropriately protective or aggressive. I think it says something about the intuitive ability and flexibility of the breed. I can't think of another breed so heavily used in police/war/protection that also is used as much in service work (except of course the lab but they aren't doing bite stuff for PDS they are bomb dogs)


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OMG guys my stupid phone either auto corrects or auto pastes so much crap and I can't edit the post from it for some reason...no idea where this Craigslist thing came from. signing off!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> *I would also like to know more about bite work in the HGH. * The original concept was anot all around dog who could herd and be guardian of the flock/farm, right?


There's a closed Facebook group, "HGH-Herding-In-America" , where you can get more specific, accurate info and answers to questions. The group is strictly on-topic HGH discussion only.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I find it interesting that this breed can Excell in two seemingly contradictory venues, police and medical service work where the dog must be tolerant of the public and never inappropriately protective or aggressive. I think it says something about the intuitive ability and flexibility of the breed. I can't think of another breed so heavily used in police/war/protection that also is used as much in service work (except of course the lab but they aren't doing bite stuff for PDS they are bomb dogs)



Sadly many MWRs and police dogs are not tolerant with the general public and are kept back from them for this reason. We have MWRs to the school on Post as part of our field day most years. There are years none of the dogs can be touched or petted by the children. Once in a while they have one that can be. The only police dog here that meets the general public is the lab that is their drug dog or the search and rescue from the next town over that is a bloodhound.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@Thecowboysgirl There are many reasons, of a more practical nature, that a lot of large guide dog schools have moved away from using the GSD. They tend not to kennel well, do not transfer handlers easily, the population of guide dog users has changed including those who are less capable handlers than post war days, and placement is more difficult for those who do not make the program (often dropped for medical or aggression). Moving away from shepherds have also allowed the training techniques and protocols to become more streamlined. 

So where GSD can make phenomenal guides, for every 1, you can get 30-40 Labs. So it boils down to making the best business decision.

There are still schools that exclusively use shepherds, and others where they make up a small portion... but the housing, length of training cycle, and graduate numbers all play a roll in how the breed fits into their program.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Fodder said:


> @thecowboygirl There are many reasons, of a more practical nature, that a lot of large guide dog schools have moved away from using the GSD. They tend not to kennel well, *do not transfer handlers easily,* the population of guide dog users has changed including those who are less capable handlers than post war days, and placement is more difficult for those who do not make the program (often dropped for medical or aggression). Moving away from shepherds have also allowed the training techniques and protocols become more streamlined.
> 
> So where GSD can make phenomenal guides, for every 1, you can get 30-40 Labs. So it boils down to making the best business decision.
> 
> There are still schools that exclusively use shepherds, and others where they make up a small portion... but the housing, length of training, and graduate numbers all play a roll in how the breed fits into their program.


Please please please elaborate on the bolded and the underlying causes.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

@Thecowboysgirl - these are excerpts from a document (SV-HGH 2009 Herding Regulations English) posted in the Facebook group I mentioned above.



> The work of the HGH is determined by its genetics and training, by its relation to the handler and by how the handler uses the dog. The
> dog’s disposition must be composed and sure; it must show good nerves and fearlessness. Drive, courage and toughness are further
> necessities to be respected by the flock which contains rebellious sheep. The willingness to defend the handler should be pronounced.





> Each dog that will pass shall show pronounced willingness to defend the handler and the flock. (It simulates that a criminal
> will attack the handler and/or steal sheep.) The exercise is shown nearby the pen. An agitator threatens (with a bite sleeve and stick)
> the handler and his dog, while the handler holds his dog on leash. The HGH should show aggression and/or strong interest and/or
> should bark. The dog is not allowed to grip the sleeve. Shyness and bad nerves are faulty.
> These herding regulations are effective as of 2009.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@MineAreWorkingline ...same differences we see in Labs or GSD as pets. It all comes down to the bonding process. Before a dog becomes a guide they can have anywhere from 2 - 10 primary handlers in under 18mos.... the majority of Labs and Goldens will happily go between handlers with no problem, just feed and show them some love. A loyal, protective, reserved type isn't going to transition as well.... some will challenge your authority, some will constantly look for "their person" and show signs of seperation anxiety, etc...

Also, with the massive change in training techniques, not only is food a huge motivator for Labs and Goldens (not so much gsd), it also aids a lot with the transition between handlers.

Obviously I'm making HUGE generalizations, but when you're producing a thousand dogs a year, you have to.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Fodder said:


> @MineAreWorkingline ...same differences we see in Labs or GSD as pets. It all comes down to the bonding process. Before a dog becomes a guide they can have anywhere from 2 - 10 primary handlers in under 18mos.... the majority of Labs and Goldens will happily go between handlers with no problem, just feed and show them some love. A loyal, protective, reserved type isn't going to transition as well.... some will challenge your authority, some will look for "their person", etc...
> 
> Also, with the massive change in training techniques, not only is food a huge motivator for Labs and Goldens (not so much gsd), it also aids a lot with the transition between handlers.
> 
> Obviously I'm making HUGE generalizations, but when you're producing a thousand dogs a year, you have to.


Thank you!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I am curious why even the working line dogs of today do seem to have much more rear leg an Gulati on than those early dogs. Those early dogs are very straight in the hocks. and actually to me they look taller and less muscular. Maybe muscular is the wrong word but they look finer. lighter weight.
> 
> Were those early dogs less capable at some things due to that build or....?


I have been watching all of my dogs since I posted these pics. When standing straight up all of my dogs rear hocks look like these dogs. Even the toy poodle. If they are in a more relaxed state then the rear hocks relax and angulate a bit. I don't ever bother trying to stack my dogs so I am just guessing that if I were to they would angulate even further. But, maybe instead of trying to stack these dogs they just have them stand straight up. The legs do appear longer and the torso not as defined as today's well built German Shepherds. On most of them I myself think Hector and Beowulf look like dogs I would own and be happy with.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the grip is very important in herding to hold and steer the recalcitrant sheep, to establish order , with authority and without damage .

the grip is full mouth and calm and pushing in to , not yanking away in prey.

the dog had to have confidence , will power and self control.

that takes care of the bite used on the animals being controlled.

look at the life of the shepherd --- out in all weather , minimal shelter , alone , in a business that was competitive for contracts , and left the shepherd vulnerable to being rolled for the little that did belong to him. 
that was the life of the wanderschaferei 

had the privilege of exchanging posts with one of the wandering shepherds , that was 20 years ago.
There weren't many in that livelihood anymore. He did not use a GSD -- what he had was more like the landrace dogs which formed the GSD including members of the Altdeutsche hutehunde (strobel , harzer fuchs and gelbbacke) Schläge - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde :: powered by alphaNEXT 

Then I emailed a young lady going in to the profession - and her dog of choice was harzer fuchs and gelbbacke.
Lost contact with her.

Now it is very encouraging to see new uses for the herding breeds.
Germany is very progressive with environmental "green" issues. Sheep are used in urban management of green spaces , forestry management . So when my son visited friends he was able to look outside the park facing balcony very early in the morning to see a truck arrive , unload the sheep , who greedily graze the lawns - while the dog runs back and forth to keep the sheep from entering the street where people are starting to drive , ride , to work.

not just urban greens management , but the renewed interest in natural fibres, and sheep milk and cheeses are creating jobs 

the Altdeutsche hutehunde look pretty much as they did in the beginning . They look pretty much like the pictures of the new GSD dating from the early 1900's .

there are private breed registries , not public sanctioned fci , Sv , etc etc . Just like the old days.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

do not transfer handlers easily,

LOYALTY 

even PD's like to pair new handler / new dog ahead of time for bonding to set in .

once you have this you have a phenom team .


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

carmspack said:


> not good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, I do understand. And all the parts of the topline on my puppy flow beautifully into each other.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

carmspack said:


> the grip is very important in herding to hold and steer the recalcitrant sheep, to establish order , with authority and without damage .
> 
> the grip is full mouth and calm and pushing in to , not yanking away in prey.
> 
> ...


This practice is fairly common here. Goats and border collies are the norm though.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

carmspack said:


> do not transfer handlers easily,
> 
> LOYALTY
> 
> ...


That is my understanding. The reason I questioned is because there is a video of a GSD happily performing for a handler that they hardly know and I said I did not think this was normal GSD behavior and others were of differing opinions. Thanks for your input.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is my understanding. The reason I questioned is because there is a video of a GSD happily performing for a handler that they hardly know and I said I did not think this was normal GSD behavior and others were of differing opinions. Thanks for your input.


yes , I do know this - and there is a newer part to the dogs character, once again by selection .

the "olde" type dogs were very discriminating , very loyal to family , worked with one person well.

the "olde" type dogs take time to shift allegiance . Some of the "olde" type dogs being brokered or offered in to law enforcement don't evaluate well if tested immediately . 
Lesson learnt that the dog needed time to bond . This was part of the specific breed characteristics the aloofness , the legendary loyalty.

NOW , we have a differnt type of GSD -- show me the ball and I'm your best friend - show me some food and you have me !

Oh I can just hear the cussing and disgust of an old friend who could not stand this change .


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i can take the leash of almost any dog at my job, GSD included, and get them to perform happily for a video clip.... but for a true partnership, strong bond and reliable working relationship, including when things get tough... it takes awhile for a shepherd to develop that.

I've been out sick from work a couple days and get reports from the individuals covering my dogs - they're all DOING the work but there is one in particular that is just sort of checked out, going thru the motions, stoic, lacking initiative... a total different experience than I have with him, but his work is accurate. He's a lab, but one that it took a week to animate or wag his tail or not move away from me during obedience routines. Very willing but slower to bond.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

:grin2:


carmspack said:


> yes , I do know this - and there is a newer part to the dogs character, once again by selection .
> 
> the "olde" type dogs were very discriminating , very loyal to family , worked with one person well.
> 
> ...


These would be my next questions. Why does the SV breed standard call for a GSD that is "good natured", i.e., "friendly", while the AKC standard calls for a GSD that is aloof? Why is aloof not mentioned in the SV standard?


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## gsdhistorian4 (Nov 30, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> Yeah, I never meant to imply that all of today's GSD were bad. Or any for that matter. To each their own. I just prefer the look of some of these over some of the show lines of today


Yea, i didn't think you implied that, and i agree with you 100%!I like the look of working lines more then showlines too


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Fodder said:


> @Thecowboysgirl There are many reasons, of a more practical nature, that a lot of large guide dog schools have moved away from using the GSD. They tend not to kennel well, do not transfer handlers easily, the population of guide dog users has changed including those who are less capable handlers than post war days, and placement is more difficult for those who do not make the program (often dropped for medical or aggression). Moving away from shepherds have also allowed the training techniques and protocols to become more streamlined.
> 
> So where GSD can make phenomenal guides, for every 1, you can get 30-40 Labs. So it boils down to making the best business decision.
> 
> There are still schools that exclusively use shepherds, and others where they make up a small portion... but the housing, length of training cycle, and graduate numbers all play a roll in how the breed fits into their program.


I know all these reasons, and they all sound very valid to me. I was more just commenting that I am sorry to see the breed losing these jobs....i do u derstand the reasons


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

reserve is a national characteristic .

a cocker spaniel , golden retirever can be good natured and friendly but wear their hearts on their sleeve .

maybe the other clubs had to find words to explain something , common and understood by members of German society?

there is some wording in the von Stephanitz book which describes the dogs character as neither hostile nor friendly- tolerant of but not seeking atention


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

carmspack said:


> reserve is a national characteristic .
> 
> a cocker spaniel , golden retirever can be good natured and friendly but wear their hearts on their sleeve .
> 
> ...


I was curious if it were something that got lost in translation. Thanks!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Nigel said:


> This practice is fairly common here. Goats and border collies are the norm though.


There is a slight upswing in use of goats and sheep for modern purposes in America as well.

One of my training friends was involved in the initial rounds of contract selection a few years ago when Chicago's O'Hare International Airport adopted a grazing policy for scrub and weed control. They were soliciting bids for a herding team (handler plus dog or dogs), it was a paid job. A GSD could have been well suited to this job. 

Owners of German Shepherds can get involved in herding and its modern uses. There's no reason not to.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have to say I appreciate the look of all the lines I like the angles in moderation. I think my dog who is an American showline is a great mover and can watch him all day. I'm not expert by far but admire his confirmation. This though turned out to be a great thread. Yes german shepherds do not transfer to different handlers well and need to form a bond. When we started doing sheep herding lessons Max worked with the handler for the first few lessons to start him he listened and obeyed very well and seemingly respectful but outside that fence and a way from the sheep- he did not trust her as he did not want her no where near me. So I am working with him now with the sheep and just starting to feel that great feeling of working together it is something special. One time I noticed that during the lesson threedifferent times the sheep crowded me they stepped on my feet did not hurt at all( only 3 sheep) but to myself I felt like whoa for a second and I noticed Max rushing in quick at that exact moment I felt very slight brief concern this happened three times so I know was not a coincidence. I only mentioned this if you see a german shepherd working with another handler there may be more to it. I would like to here more about the original sheep herding german shepherds that died in the war. Any one recommend any good books.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Schutzhund was developed around the 20's to determine breed suitability. The HGH degree ( herding) was also acceptable for determining breed suitability. The HGH test in Germany also had a bitework part. So the traits that the early SV felt that should be present in the breed are consistent and have been for nearly one hundred years.


True but now many are breeding to or for the test. Just like teachers teach for the test. A bunch stuff gets left behind if breedings are aimed at the success of the test. IPO will not show health (except in the moment, stability off the field and numerous other traits and characteristics.

I think it's a good test of a well trained dog on that particular day. Tells you about one dog and should not be used as a judge for breeding.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> True but now many are breeding to or for the test.


How?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a lot of good dogs were killed .
Mainly on the eastern front -- no one persons kennel or dog singled out -- acts of the victor because the victor could 

one of the best was Alfred Hahn's Faust vd Busecker Schloss

he made it his life's work to create another like him 

Faust vom Busecker Schloß


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> True but now many are breeding to or for the test. Just like teachers teach for the test. A bunch stuff gets left behind if breedings are aimed at the success of the test. IPO will not show health (except in the moment, stability off the field and numerous other traits and characteristics.
> 
> I think it's a good test of a well trained dog on that particular day. Tells you about one dog and should not be used as a judge for breeding.


well that is just it -- training for the papers .


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> There is a slight upswing in use of goats and sheep for modern purposes in America as well.
> 
> One of my training friends was involved in the initial rounds of contract selection a few years ago when Chicago's O'Hare International Airport adopted a grazing policy for scrub and weed control. They were soliciting bids for a herding team (handler plus dog or dogs), it was a paid job. A GSD could have been well suited to this job.
> 
> Owners of German Shepherds can get involved in herding and its modern uses. There's no reason not to.


A son of one of my coworkers has a herd of goats and does this. It's kind of a tough life as he travels the northwest and lives out of a camper. Power companies, city/county property, there's plenty of work.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@jacks Dad....you are right. That is the evolution into "sport". That's not to say that sport is bad...it isn't!!!....But to breed FOR sport is the same as breeding for show......just different directions.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sid vom haus Pixner..real dog, real producer. He is almost a must in any GSD I use these days.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I know I definitely prefer working lines to show lines, or the dogs with backs horizontal to the ground versus ramming into it. I certainly don't mind some angulation but not a lot. It seems like a lot of them develop a very stilted gate like they hiccuped. The female I just got looked like she had a lot less angulation in her pictures than she actually has which is unfortunate but I'll live. One thing I find interesting is an excerpt I have from an AKC Breed Book from 1968.

It says about German Shepherds "The German Shepherd is a natural dog, unchanged for any whim of the show ring." 

Unfortunately that isn't true for many breeds anymore. It's starting to feel like people breed for aesthetic/money more than anything else. Sure I appreciate a pretty dog but I also like it to have a stable temperament and be healthy.

(I can post the book's picture of the German Shepherd if you guys would like.)


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> @jacks Dad....you are right. That is the evolution into "sport". That's not to say that sport is bad...it isn't!!!....But to breed FOR sport is the same as breeding for show......just different directions.


Who? How do they do it? How do you tailor breeding so narrowly down to passing 3 different phases? Crap wasn't ever bred in 1980?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve, where do you see me calling anything CRAP? I think I even said that sport wasnt bad or did you forget or miss that? 
If you don't know who and what breeding for sport means, then we see things differently. Which is fine with me, maybe I just don't understand the qualities of the dogs in sport these days....that's okay. No problem.


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## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

Despite my dog's history being relatively unknown, his body surprisingly resembles these dogs.

I do think the old German Shepherds are better. And I give props to all those who preserve this breed instead of following show trends.


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