# Adopted a GSD puppy... did I make a mistake?



## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

My wife and I adopted a 2-month old female GSD from a local rescue last week. She was found on the side of the road a few weeks ago so she may be a mix, but looks 100% like every GSD puppy picture I've found.

We have a 4-year old female Australian Sheperd mix (named Guinness) that we've had since she was a puppy. She is honestly the sweetest dog I've ever met and she was incredibly easy to train. She never barked, never chewed on stuff, she's never been aggressive with other dogs... it was like she was trained in the womb or something. She's extremely affectionate with everyone, and very attached to us.

The first week with our new GSD puppy has not gone as smoothly as I had hoped and now I'm starting to wonder if I made a mistake by adopting her, so I'm hoping somebody can give me advice and/or encouragement. Please be upfront and honest.

Here is a list and description of my concerns:

*Too much time in the crate*
One of the biggest problems is that my wife is working now. For the first few years we had Guinness, my wife wasn't working so she was able to take care of and spend time with Guinness all day while I was at work. But with both of us working now, I fear that the puppy (which we've named "Harp") is having to spend too much time in the crate. Here's how a typical night/day goes for her:
11:00pm - In the crate for bedtime
03:00am - I get up and let her out to pee then back to the crate
05:30am - Outside to play with Guinness until 7:30am when my wife leaves for work (I leave at 6)
11:30am - One of us comes home at lunchtime to let her out and play for about 10 min then back in the crate
05:00pm - Home from work and she's out of the crate until bedtime.
In a whole day, she only really has 6 hours out of the crate besides the short potty breaks. We spend that whole time playing with her and teaching her, so she does get a ton of attention for those 6 hours.
She hasn't had any accidents in the crate and doesn't seem like she's about to burst when we let her out (she runs around in the yard for a minute or so before peeing.) She does whine/howl/bark a lot at night. I've been ignoring it and she typically stops within 15 minutes or so.
Our yard is fenced in with a 6' privacy fence. Unless the weather will be bad (too hot/cold/rainy) we leave Guinness outside all day while we're at work. Otherwise, she spends the day loose in the house. I intend to eventually do the same thing with Harp once summer is through but it's too hot to do that right now so our only choice is the current arrangement with the crate.

*Barking*
She's very vocal. As I said before, we never had a problem with Guinness barking, but Harp barks at everything: toys, other dogs, us, her water dish. It's not a vicious bark... more of a playful one but I still worry that it will be an issue. Right now it sounds cute, but an adult GSD bark can be a bit off-putting.

*Biting/Chewing*
This is another issue we just didn't have to deal with before. Again, it's not an aggressive bite, it's playful but I still worry about it. I'm trying to follow advice I read elsewhere about letting her bite me but if she bites hard, say "ouch!" and leave the room for a few minutes. Hopefully she'll learn to be gentle that way.

*Guinness's reaction*
Almost instantly, Guinness's personality shifted. She won't let Harp eat... she uses her nose to nudge her out of the food dish and when Harp returns Guinness growls at her. Also, if I'm petting Guinness and Harp comes to get attention, Guinness growls at her. They do play together very well in the yard. Guinness is good about playing gently with her and they run around and seem to have a good time, but whenever food or attention from us is involved, she gets stand-offish.
There are two reasons this really bothers me. The first is a bit selfish: I don't want to lose that sweet, loving personality that has been such a big part of our lives over the past 4 years. The second reason is more practical: I don't want to come home to a bloodbath... either now when Harp is a puppy, or later on when she grows up and the tables turn.

*Liability*
I know I may get flamed for my ignorance here... BUT I've heard so many stories about German Sheperds biting people that it really scares me. I shudder at the thought of her hurting someone later on down the road. I can't imagine the guilt I would feel if someone's child were mauled by my dog. Add to that the pain of having the dog put down for it, and the financial impact of being sued and my head starts spinning.


I don't want to make it sound ALL bad, so I'll add the positives here as well:

*She's Very smart*
I've always heard how easy it is to train GSDs and boy that's the truth! I hung a bell on the door as a way for her to tell us when she wants to go outside. She literally learned it after showing it to her the first time! When she got near the door, I said "Outside?" then picked her up and bumped the bell with her nose, then praised her and opened the door. That's all it took. Now she rings the bell, turns around, sits down (something else we taught her) and looks at us. If we don't respond she repeats it. I'm very impressed.

*Playtime for Guinness*
When they're playing, they do very well and I'm happy that Guinness has a companion to play with now.

*GSDs make good guard dogs*
Guinness sucks as a guard dog. If someone knocks on the door, she runs to the door wagging her tail. If it's someone she never met when I open the door, she gets all excited and starts licking their hand. One of the original reasons we got a dog 4 years ago (our first) is that I work rotating shiftwork and wanted a guard dog for when my wife is home alone at night. Having a well-trained GSD could fill that gap. However, this also ties into my worries about the liability I described above.

*We love dogs*
Pretty simple. The thought of taking her back just breaks my heart (in fact, I'm a bit teary-eyed as I type this). I know we would always provide well for her but if I took her back, I don't know that she'd be so lucky the second time around.

So I come to you guys with my story and request for advice. We've had the puppy less than a week and if I made a mistake, I need to return her to the rescue ASAP so that she can be adopted into a more appropriate home.

Thank you for taking the time to read this very long post and for any advice you can offer.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

> *Too much time in the crate*
> One of the biggest problems is that my wife is working now. For the first few years we had Guinness, my wife wasn't working so she was able to take care of and spend time with Guinness all day while I was at work. But with both of us working now, I fear that the puppy (which we've named "Harp") is having to spend too much time in the crate. Here's how a typical night/day goes for her:


That doesn't seem like too much time in the crate since she is getting a lot of attention when you are home. Most people have jobs and have to leave their dogs during the day-it's what you do with them when you're home that matters.



> *Barking*
> She's very vocal. As I said before, we never had a problem with Guinness barking, but Harp barks at everything: toys, other dogs, us, her water dish. It's not a vicious bark... more of a playful one but I still worry that it will be an issue. Right now it sounds cute, but an adult GSD bark can be a bit off-putting.


German shepherds are very vocal dogs! My dog talks a lot, but doesn't really bark at things because he's been very well socialized-which is very important for you to do too. Make sure to take the puppy to puppy classes and also have the puppy meet many different people of all genders, ages, sizes, and colors and take the puppy to lots of different places.



> *Biting/Chewing*
> This is another issue we just didn't have to deal with before. Again, it's not an aggressive bite, it's playful but I still worry about it. I'm trying to follow advice I read elsewhere about letting her bite me but if she bites hard, say "ouch!" and leave the room for a few minutes. Hopefully she'll learn to be gentle that way.


German shepherds are called land sharks! They love to bite everything, especially you. Just say in a high pitched voice, OWW! And replace your hand with a toy or something she is allowed to chew on. If she doesn't stop, turn away and ignore her, and if that doesn't work, calmy pick her up and put her in her crate for a time out.
My dog to this day still grabs a toy when we are playing so he doesn't put his mouth on me.



> *Guinness's reaction*
> Almost instantly, Guinness's personality shifted. She won't let Harp eat... she uses her nose to nudge her out of the food dish and when Harp returns Guinness growls at her. Also, if I'm petting Guinness and Harp comes to get attention, Guinness growls at her. They do play together very well in the yard. Guinness is good about playing gently with her and they run around and seem to have a good time, but whenever food or attention from us is involved, she gets stand-offish.
> There are two reasons this really bothers me. The first is a bit selfish: I don't want to lose that sweet, loving personality that has been such a big part of our lives over the past 4 years. The second reason is more practical: I don't want to come home to a bloodbath... either now when Harp is a puppy, or later on when she grows up and the tables turn.


Don't free feed-set meal times- and feed the dogs separately, you can put the puppy in the crate.

Sounds like Guinness is resource guarding you. Make sure to give them each individual attention. Sometimes when I have a new foster dog, my dog does this and usually gets over it within a few days.



> *Liability*
> I know I may get flamed for my ignorance here... BUT I've heard so many stories about German Sheperds biting people that it really scares me. I shudder at the thought of her hurting someone later on down the road. I can't imagine the guilt I would feel if someone's child were mauled by my dog. Add to that the pain of having the dog put down for it, and the financial impact of being sued and my head starts spinning


.

Another important reason to SOCIALIZE (see above)!



> *GSDs make good guard dogs*
> Guinness sucks as a guard dog. If someone knocks on the door, she runs to the door wagging her tail. If it's someone she never met when I open the door, she gets all excited and starts licking their hand. One of the original reasons we got a dog 4 years ago (our first) is that I work rotating shiftwork and wanted a guard dog for when my wife is home alone at night. Having a well-trained GSD could fill that gap. However, this also ties into my worries about the liability I described above.


She is just a puppy-a baby- so this is exactly what you want to see-being a social butterfly. Keep it up and keep socializing her-by exposing her to lots of different people and environments, she'll learn the difference between normal and abnormal things. Don't expect any protective like behavior before 18months-1 year, anything before is likely fear based-and if not properly socialized-may always be fear based.


There is nothing you wrote here that isn't normal and easy to fix! Enjoy the puppy


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

i have a 9 year old female...i brought home a male puppy that was 10 weeks...he is now 5 months...my female has just no started to accept him and relax around him. She would boss him around,take his food and toys,growl snap and bark the poopr puu non stop. she def dominated him. someone told me to start walking them together..and i did just that everyday at least 2 times a day we went on walks side by side together...i dont know if thats what did it or if my female just gave up and realized this pup isnt going anywhere or what..but there is hope..they play and accept each other....it dosent sond like your pup is in crate too much at all! in fact it sounds perfect to me...the liabitly thing..if you own your home..i took extra home owners insurance on mine for dog bites..beacuse i foster dogs too...didnt cost much maybe a extra $40 a year to cover $100,000 in case someone sues me....my pup already has become a great gaurd dog all on his own...in fact i had my sis in law come to let him out one day while i wa stuck at work and he scared her so bad she left...it made me proud  at 5 months he is still chewing up a storm..sometimes he will sneak up and bite my foot when im relaxing on my recliner..i yell ouch out of pain and he stops..but i supply him alot of bullies and bones to help with his teething..and i watch to make sure my female keeps hers and not his...and boy oh boy does my pup bark and is so vocal...the whole world knows when my daughter rides her bike too far ahead or he cant see her anymore..or if theres something across the street he wants..ver very vocal..but i like it  i dont think you made a mistake at all! just give it time..it gets better and easier!!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Liability
> I know I may get flamed for my ignorance here... BUT I've heard so many stories about German Sheperds biting people that it really scares me. I shudder at the thought of her hurting someone later on down the road. I can't imagine the guilt I would feel if someone's child were mauled by my dog. Add to that the pain of having the dog put down for it, and the financial impact of being sued and my head starts spinning.


Not flamed...but to be so consumed with liability issues that you can't enjoy your dog, that doesn't make sense to me?

Also another, "do not feed them together". Don't expect them to share...dogs aren't geared that way. Do feed them separately. And don't let puppy get into your adult dogs' bowl.

I'm also concerned that you now have two girls and the potential is there for a lot of bitch-bitch aggression. May not happen at all, but if it does, it's going to be a mess.
While your puppy is still young is the time to give her back to the rescue or wherever you got her from, if you're considering it.
Don't rehome her on your own unless you spay her now.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Both of your furbabies are beautiful, since you have only had the new puppy less than a week it will take a little time for the adjustment. 

My lab was food aggressive with my boy when I first brought him home, so I started feeding them about 10 ft apart and make sure that each stays in his or her own space. My lab was a little aggressive with her toys also, but the longer they were together the aggressiveness went away. I always make sure when I am loving on one of my babies the other gets loved on too. 

Good luck with your babies and with time I think they will be ok.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

The rescue was good with you eventually leaving her outside unsupervised with another female dog?

A lot of these questions, it would be good to review with the foster home from the rescue that knows the puppy and may be able to fill in some of that information. 

For protection, a good alarm system, self-defense training and training in firearms use is probably your best bet. The bark deterrent of a dog adds to that equation but the actual dog themselves - if someone comes in after hearing the bark - isn't a lot of use.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

If you've had the puppy for a week now and you are still thinking about giving her back, you probably should. You should have bonded by now and it clearly sounds like you haven't. Nothing wrong with knowing this isn't a match made in heaven. What is wrong is keeping a puppy because you feel guilty about returning her.

It sounds like you need a more mellow pup than this one and that's why you are feeling stressed.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd get a male, if at all, if I were you.
Any dog can alert to intruders. Poms and Dachshunds excel at that job. 
A mere dog on the premises who will bark is a deterrent as well. 
Unless your neighborhood is extremely dangerous, any dog being there will help deter criminals.

We do live in an area rife with gang and meth lab activity so I like having a GSD, but my best protection is the gun beside my bed while I'm dialing 911 and my Dachshunds make a big noise


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> The rescue was good with you eventually leaving her outside unsupervised with another female dog?


Yes. Is that bad? It wouldn't be until a few months from now... but if there's a reason I should never do that, then keeping the puppy will not be an option for me.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I called the rescue and explained my situation. They said I could return her if I wanted, or they can send a trainer over to see what they think. I told them to send the trainer, but I'll probably end up returning her.

The more I read about GSD's, the more I realize that we're probably not be the best fit for her. It breaks my heart, but I don't want her to grow up in the wrong environment.

I know it sounds horribly irresponsible of me to get a GSD without researching it better first.
When we saw her at the rescue, I said I was interested and asked how the adoption process worked. They said I'd fill out an application and they'd get back to me within a week. So I filled one out, figuring I'd have time to research a little and make an educated decision. But after reading my application, they called my references right then and within a few minutes I was signing the papers to adopt her and take her home that day. I knew it was too spur-of-the-moment (I research things to death before committing/buying) but was afraid we'd lose our chance if I said "well... not right now."

I feel very ashamed and saddened by this ordeal, but I have to do what is in the puppy's best interest.

My wife's heart is broken too. I'm off work tomorrow and she said she wants me to take care of it then because it will hurt too much having her around knowing that we're taking her back.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Yes. Is that bad? It wouldn't be until a few months from now... but if there's a reason I should never do that, then keeping the puppy will not be an option for me.


You should never leave them out together, no. 
Because of the potential for female-female aggression. 
Return the puppy now while she's still in "cute" stage...at 4mos. or so they start getting gangly and awkward looking...people are drawn to the cute stage more 

But I also question the rescue's judgement. Had you told me that on your app, I'd have declined and explained bitch-bitch aggression to you.


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

Elaine said:


> If you've had the puppy for a week now and you are still thinking about giving her back, you probably should. You should have bonded by now and it clearly sounds like you haven't.


That's what's killing me about it... we _have_ bonded. I love the little thing.

I've been crying the whole time I've been typing about this.


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

The only thing I see wrong that you are doing is feeding them together. I agree with the others when I say, feed them separate and on a schedule. I would never let my dogs eat together out of the same bowl, that is just asking for trouble. It seems that the dogs get along for the most part so your older dog will adjust to the puppy. Don't let the older one guard you from the puppy. Also, don't be too alarmed if you hear the older dog give a growl to the puppy either. My older dog growled at Willow a lot in the early days. It was more of a "you're annoying me now and I don't want to play" warning. I was always near to redirect the puppy in these times. 
Other than that, your liability concern could drive you crazy if you let it. In all honesty, anytime you take in a dog, regardless of breed, there is a chance it could bite. The best you can do at this age is socialize and train her. I am sure the pup will be fine. There are many GSD sweethearts!


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> *You should never leave them out together, no. *
> Because of the potential for female-female aggression. But I also question the rescue's judgement. Had you told me that on your app, I'd have declined and explained bitch-bitch aggression to you.


Thank you for that... it makes my decision a bit easier.

I even asked them if it would be a problem having two females and they said no. But I didn't know it was that big of a problem or I never would have considered it in the first place.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

jerm138, you won't find a lot of support here for leaving your dogs outside alone. There are just too many things that can happen - stolen, eating something they shouldn't, escaping the fence, barking and upsetting the neighbors, digging, the list goes on and on.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You know what, I will say it! Part of the job of a rescue is to do that education, to ensure fit, to visit your home with a big old GSD who will knock into your things and look you in the eye, so you see what you are getting into, and determine that you are a match. It cannot be just the adopter's responsibility to do so because this is what happens. That screening process is a way to move a lot of animals through but does not ever seem to be to be a best practice to ensure a lifelong match. 

The female-female thing can get ugly and I don't leave females alone unsupervised, particularly not 2 dogs alone in a backyard where they can do a lot of damage if they DO get along, by doing things as a pair that a single dog would not do!

I think this is a good education thread - and I am sorry for you and the pup both.


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> You should never leave them out together, no.
> Because of the potential for female-female aggression.
> Return the puppy now while she's still in "cute" stage...at 4mos. or so they start getting gangly and awkward looking...people are drawn to the cute stage more
> 
> But I also question the rescue's judgement. Had you told me that on your app, I'd have declined and explained bitch-bitch aggression to you.


 So you are saying a rescue should never adopt a female to a house that already has a female? I don't understand that. I have two females and they get along great and I have NEVER had a problem with aggression between the two. They get along great and they are home alone all day together.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

jerm138 said:


> Thank you for that... it makes my decision a bit easier.
> 
> I even asked them if it would be a problem having two females and they said no. But I didn't know it was that big of a problem or I never would have considered it in the first place.


2 females isn't GUARANTEED to be a problem. It's just that 2 girls are more likely to have a big fight if they don't get along than a male/female or male/male pair. 
This rescue sounds more like they were focused only on getting dogs out the door as quickly as possible instead of finding the right home. Shame on them.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Any *untrained* dog is a liability, doesn't matter what breed.
My 2 females are bff's. I have a secure yard and my dogs spend the days outside. I would NEVER leave a puppy alone outside to be stolen, my dogs have to be old enough to spend the days outside. Resource guarding can be a pain to deal with but it is managable. 
It took me almost 6 months to get Kiya to accept the kitten, now the kitten is part of our pack. He even eats with the dogs.
It really depends on how much you want to keep the new pup.
It sounds like you have the pups best intrest in mind, so no matter what you decide the pup will be fine.


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

You know, the internet can be a pretty nasty place sometimes, but this thread has given me hope for humanity!

Everyone here has been so kind and offered such great support to a complete stranger that has never posted here before. You should be proud of your community!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

cshepherd9 said:


> So you are saying a rescue should never adopt a female to a house that already has a female? I don't understand that. I have two females and they get along great and I have NEVER had a problem with aggression between the two. They get along great and they are home alone all day together.


No. Go ahead and get two girls if you want.
But if they have a big row one day and hate each other from that point out, don't say "you didn't warn me" 

*As a rescue *we avoid placing females with females in the same home. Too easy to avoid potential issues, and find a home with a male in it. 
I'd do it if the owners were experienced and could handle crate-rotate easily without wanting to give the adopted dog back but few are prepared or willing to do that.



> It's just that 2 girls are more likely to have a big fight if they don't get along than a male/female or male/male pair. *This! * _And that come from living with a girl (sheltie mix) who barely tolerates other girls. _
> 
> This rescue sounds more like they were focused only on getting dogs out the door as quickly as possible instead of finding the right home. Shame on them


Ditto to this. Sad. But I know many more rescues who are like this, than who actually screen and are careful about placements.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

It's bullocks to assert that you *must *have bonded with your puppy in the first week or 'it's a bad idea'. I reeeeeally struggled with my high-drive girl. Really struggled. She whined every moment she was awake, even while eating. She pottied in the crate and wouldn't outside. She pulled down everything from shelves, my blinds, pillows etc. I wanted to give her back from the moment we walked in the door because she was 'too much' for me.

Three months later, keeping her was the best decision I've ever made. I regretted her for two or three weeks before we had that 'bonding moment'. There is no 'must' to bonding. You will or you wont, but a week is not long enough to make a decision. My 2 y/o bitch has gone through her stages, too. At first she left my puppy bitch alone, then was aggressive, then severely aggressive, and now they're best friends. I'll never leave them alone unsupervised but they have to adjust to a new lifestyle too. After all, their human now thinks something else is as important as they are; what an insult and an adjustment after years of doting attention! 

Don't give up just yet. I was ripping my hair out for the first week and finding every fault I could with the puppy to justify returning her. Breathe, go with it, keep on doing your best, and re-evaluate in a month. I bet you'll be surprised with how much she's latched on to your heart.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

But if there's things they want to do which may ultimately be unhealthy for both dogs, then it's best to give the puppy back rather than worry constantly about it.
This puppy will do fine in it's new home provided the rescue ensures it's a lifelong match, not just a "get the adoption fee and get the dog out of here" type deal.


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

marbury said:


> I'll never leave them alone unsupervised


Unfortunately, this is just not an option for me.

The "hassle" part really isn't that bad. I'm more than willing to put in the time: I get up in the night to let her out, drive 40mi round-trip every day to let her out at lunchtime, spend every possible waking moment with her and Guinness... I'm definitely willing to put in the time. I did the same thing with Guinness too.

But as soon as I started reading the safety issues with 2 females... that was the end of the debate for me... No more question. I have to do what I have to do even though it breaks my heart. Keeping them separate all the time when they're alone is just not possible because we both work.

Hopefully she finds a great family elsewhere.


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## Jazmeena (Feb 9, 2012)

I am going to post opposite of most here! I am no expert by any means and fairly new to German Shepherds myself (our Angel is 7 1/2 months), but I still think you could do fine keeping your pup!! The crate time is not too much; she is getting plenty of attention/training and as for leaving the 2 alone unsupervised - I agree just out in the back yard would not be a good idea, but what about sectioning the yard or keeping them in seperate pens, so they dont get in a fight?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you have your doubts about keeping her, I would return her. I also work full time and I have multiple intact males, so I don't usually allow my dogs to all be free together when I'm not around. I have a small house (1300 square feet) and small property in the city but can keep my males separated without leaving anyone out doors (I have a pen indoors, some large crates, baby gates for blocking off a floor or a room). So, it can be done and it's really not all that unique, having multiple dogs, working a lot, and wanting to keep them separated. If you want to keep dogs outside I would install some kennels for safety. I also agree with marbury regarding bonding. It takes me a long time to really bond with a dog. It doesn't mean I don't like them and don't spend hours a day on training and socialization but I like adult GSDs so I don't typically feel that connection with my dogs until they are mature.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't want to insinuate that other poster's are wrong, but everyone's experiences are different. I have had dogs for 30 plus years, usually 3 dogs at a time and all females at once and never ever had a bitch fight not once.

You said that you had already bonded with your pup and that you were willing to work with it, so give it a little longer and you may be surprised at how close your girls can be with each other. 

Since you would not be leaving the pup alone with your older dog for awhile, you would be able to tell a little more about the trust issue. Good luck with your decision, and I hope that you get to keep the pup.


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

I just called the Rescue and was upfront. I said that because of our arrangement of leaving our dog outside unsupervised, I just can't take the risk of having 2 females unsupervised like that and one of them getting hurt.

She was understanding and gave one last-ditch effort by telling me that the female-female thing is pretty much a myth and that they should be okay. I told her I just can't take that risk so we're making arrangements to return her this weekend.

I wish I could take her back today to get it over with... like ripping a band-aid off quickly... but it sounds like we'll have to see her sad face for a couple more days.

She's supposed to call me back in a bit to let me know if someone can take her today or tomorrow.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> the female-female thing is *pretty much a myth *and that they should be okay.


LOL okay, well, wish they could have seen the female GSD that was torn to shreds that the guy carried into the clinic one day, dripping blood the whole way. Yep, he had two bitches in heat and the new one got the short end of the stick.
I saw her as they sedated her and washed her to get all the blood off so they could find the bite wounds. Her tongue had multiple bites and was bruising. 

It was a mess...and I'm glad some haven't had to live through it but once you have, you start realizing it's just not worth the risk.

That rescue needs to open their eyes. 
http://www.dogbehaviouradvice.com/dba/readarticle.php?id=218

http://www.dogbehaviouradvice.com/dba/readarticle.php?id=81

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bitch.txt


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We have three females. We can leave Banshee with Jax OR Sierra. We can never leave Sierra and Jax alone together. Most of their fighting does come from resource guarding us so often do not have problems when only one of us is home however, I've seen Sierra attack Jax because the washer went off balance. Not all females will fight when together but it si NOT pretty when they do. F-F aggression is more common and more ferocious than M-M or M-F.

Female - Female aggression is NOT a myth.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think that female-female aggression depends more on the individual personality of the dogs themselves than gender. My two females get along wonderfully. Better than my youngest female gets along with my male. One is spayed, the other is intact. I don't allow any pushy behavior. If I am giving attention to one dog, and another dog comes up (as my youngest is fond of doing), she gets ignored until I am done giving attention to the original dog. Growling or increasing the pushyness means the dog gets put away without any fuss. They learn fast. I consider this type of behavior guarding of the human as a resource and I don't appreciate that.

It can be hard to add a new dog to a one-dog household. I don't think this particular pup is so much the problem as adapting to the new reality of having two dogs. If you decide to give the pup back to a rescue, I'd suggest having only one dog for the rest of your original dog's life. 

Also, your new pup doesn't look like a pure GSD to me, if that is the pup in the two attached photos. I could see leonburger, or more likely golden retreiver mixed in there. Maybe GSD is one of the dominant breeds, but the floppy ears and shape of the face is a giveaway that you have some retriever in the mix. 

Liability- heck, life is a liability. Puppy play biting does not equate to serious fear or aggression bites. Not at all. Teach bite inhibition and socialize and obediance and you'll be fine. Doesn't even sound like a land shark type pup to me. 

Good luck with your decision. GSDs may have a reputation for biting, but the statistics are fuzzy and the 'scary look' of a GSD plays a huge role in how they are percieved. GSDs are the second or third most popular pure breed in the US. For that, their bite risk is quite low. If we were talking about pitbulls people would be up in arms about how breed prejudice is so wrong. I think breed does mean a whole lot in terms of behavior and temperment, but I would not consider GSDs a bite risk as a mouthy pup. The GSDs I have and know are some of the most even tempered, human friendly dogs around. A bark doesn't= a bite. To be honest, Australian shepherds are fear biters and a greater bite risk than GSDs, in my experience. 

Relax and enjoy your pup. Nothing is raising alarm bells for me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I think that female-female aggression depends more on the individual personality of the dogs themselves than gender. My two females get along wonderfully. Better than my youngest female gets along with my male. One is spayed, the other is intact. I don't allow any pushy behavior. If I am giving attention to one dog, and another dog comes up (as my youngest is fond of doing), she gets ignored until I am done giving attention to the original dog. Growling or increasing the pushyness means the dog gets put away without any fuss. They learn fast. I consider this type of behavior guarding of the human as a resource and I don't appreciate that.


But you are there and control the situations, and probably do not leave them alone together for up to 8 or more hours a day.

Like the name, btw. I'm originally from SE Alaska. Where are you located?


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I brought Sib at 14 months into my house with a 9 year old female chihuahua..The little one is a PIA but they have been left alone together from the beginning..I guess ignorance IS bliss!!


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Sorry for your decision.

Can two females together be a bad thing, Yes.

Is it a given that two females will never get along and be trustworthy, No.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

1sttimeforgsd said:


> Sorry for your decision.
> 
> Can two females together be a bad thing, Yes.
> 
> Is it a given that two females will never get along and be trustworthy, No.


Exactly...you just don't know until it happens, then it's too late to go back to how it was, as a rule.
We have multiple dogs and multiple girls. Most get along fine. 
Except for my Libby, bitch-bitch aggression would be a myth to me too 
She has taught me a lot more than I care to know about the subject!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Female to female aggression isn't a myth. Twice we have had two females (not GSD's) - never again. They were great together until the younger ones reached 4 or 5 yrs old.
________
Sue


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you should do what you feel best for your situation and the puppy who is adorable I might add (and so is Guinness!).

I don't think the puppy is a purebred which has no relevance.

As to the female/female thing, while I don't agree with the rescue that it is a "myth", I am one who thinks it totally depends on the dogs involved.

I have an aussie who has 'sap' stamped on her forehead, always been the sweetest thing, wouldn't hurt a bug,,when I got her I had a female GSD, Sami. Sami was a tough girl, ruled the roost, not an instigator, but liked to 'correct' things at times.
She tended to 'pick' on Jynx, but for the most part they were fine. Now if I had "two" Sami's, believe you me, I could see that getting ugly fast, but because Jynx was more a follower vs a leader, there was very very rarely a problem and never a serious one.

Sami passed and I got Masi (female gsd),,Jynx was 8 when I got her, and they both get along great, tho Masi can be a tough girl as well, she is very non confrontational. They 'compliment" each other..

I might add, Jynx was loose in the house with BOTH girls most of her life and never a problem. I 'know" these dogs, and I know I would never come home to a bloodbath.

I would never leave two pushy/wannabe leader bitches together ever. I don't want to live with two personalities like that, and so far, I've been able to get dogs with personalities that don't 'clash' with each other.

With that sad, no one can predict your future for you or these two girls, the food issue, easy to fix, feed the puppy in a crate, the affection issue, Guinness needs to learn how to 'share'

I would however, NEVER, leave my dogs , one or more outside in my yard unsupervised, to much trouble to get into there..Inside yes, but again, I know my dogs.

To stop rambling, it is your ultimate decision, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I would never leave two pushy/wannabe leader bitches together ever. I don't want to live with two personalities like that, and so far, I've been able to get dogs with personalities that don't 'clash' with each other.


Exactly this, but the problem is when you have a new female puppy and and an adult female, you don't know if that puppy's going to grow up to challenge the bitchy leader.

The other girls in the house do not challenge my Libby and that's the only reason we can have them here, and yes, even leave them out together.
If any of the other girls had "alpha" aspirations we could not have them here, or at least without a lot of intervention and separations.

PS. That puppy is pretty, gorgeous, but I see little to no GSD. I see possibly some Livestock Guardian dog in her, or even a touch of Saint Bernard.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> PS. That puppy is pretty, gorgeous, but I see little to no GSD. I see possibly some Livestock Guardian dog in her, or even a touch of Saint Bernard.


Finally someone said that. I didn't see a whole lot of GSD either but since I'm no expert, didn't want to say anything.


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

> PS. That puppy is pretty, gorgeous, but I see little to no GSD. I see possibly some Livestock Guardian dog in her, or even a touch of Saint Bernard.


Really? I'm obviously not as experienced, so I'll take your word for it.
Every photo I've seen of GSD puppies looks very similar to me but like I said... this is my first experience with them.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Like another poster stated I do not see any red flag here. The OP posted that Guiness gets along well with other dogs and has no aggressive tendencies.

The dogs have only been together for a week, is it unusual for a older dog to let out a little growl at a new puppy? Is that not how they learn? Other than keeping them seperated while eating I don't see the problem. The OP stated that the two of them play well together, I didn't read anything in the post that said that Guiness was an aggressive or alpa female.

I know that things can go bad and go bad quickly but I don't feel that what the Op posted about Guiness is concerning. It just sounds like the older dog is acting like any dog that is dealing with a youngster.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

jerm138 said:


> Really? I'm obviously not as experienced, so I'll take your word for it.
> Every photo I've seen of GSD puppies looks very similar to me but like I said... this is my first experience with them.


 
I agree, definitely not a purebred GSD, maybe not GSD at all.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

She reminds me of this, but not sure where you are or if they are common there. Her huge ear flaps seem to speak "large dog" but not a shep...
We've had a few in our rescue because some yahoo down the road about 10 miles from here was breeding them. LGDs are common here due to all the sheep and goat herds.

Caucasian Mountain Dog Photos Pictures Caucasian Mountain Dogs

PS. at first we had no idea what they were, but since then, we've learned, and have a responsible CMD breeder helping us with their placements when they turn up, as well as breed ID assistance.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

jerm138 said:


> Really? I'm obviously not as experienced, so I'll take your word for it.
> Every photo I've seen of GSD puppies looks very similar to me but like I said... this is my first experience with them.


That is NOT my quote, I never said that I believe it was msvette2u that said it. I don't know why it put it with my signature.


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

1sttimeforgsd said:


> That is NOT my quote, I never said that I believe it was msvette2u that said it. I don't know why it put it with my signature.


Sorry... I must have goofed up the post. It's fixed now


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Exactly this, but the problem is when you have a new female puppy and and an adult female, you don't know if that puppy's going to grow up to challenge the bitchy leader.
> 
> The other girls in the house do not challenge my Libby and that's the only reason we can have them here, and yes, even leave them out together.
> If any of the other girls had "alpha" aspirations we could not have them here, or at least without a lot of intervention and separations.
> ...


This is the post where it originated, it was not me. I think that the pup is beautiful gsd or not.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

I just wanted to second what was written here. I personally have intact males that run together and intact females who do. I only ever had one female that didn't work well in our house as she was very dominant with other females. But she got here at a 2 years old, we did not raise her. You know best but I would hesitate to say you are having issues because they are 2 females. More likely because of issues with Guiness which I am not sure would be resolved just by the puppy being male. 

I will also second and third that this puppy is not purebred, if at all shepherd. She is beautiful but don't let your hesitations with the "breed" be an overriding reason for your concerns. I bet there is a very small percentage of the GSD genetics in there.



JakodaCD OA said:


> I think you should do what you feel best for your situation and the puppy who is adorable I might add (and so is Guinness!).
> 
> I don't think the puppy is a purebred which has no relevance.
> 
> ...


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## jerm138 (Jun 21, 2012)

Something else that piqued my interest regarding the articles about bitch-bitch aggression... they focused a lot on whether they were spayed after their first heat.
Guinness was spayed before ever going into heat and I intended to do the same with this puppy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Actually livestock guardians would be more of a potential risk, in fact some insurance and BSL includes them, because they "think independently" instead of relying on humans to guide them like Shepherds do. They were bred to be left alone in the mountains with livestock, protecting the flocks from wolves and other intruders.

IF she's LGD. Not sure. But she's drop-dead gorgeous, no matter what she is :wub:

BTW we did adopt a livestock guardian dog, a CMD, to a home in S. Dakota, they drove to WA state to get her! They live where there is mountain lions and the dog is there to protect their granddaughter.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

jerm138 said:


> She was understanding and gave one last-ditch effort by telling me that the female-female thing is pretty much a myth and that they should be okay.


 Whoa, I can't believe they said that... And this is coming from a rescue?? They either need new staff, a LOT more education, or need to get out of the "rescue" business. Are you sure this is a real 501c3 organization, and not someone who just privately re-homes animals?

In short, it's NOT a myth. Bitches can be evil with each other and once they start fighting, they won't stop. They are way worse than males in this respect; males fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for *breathing* rights. 

Having said that, it's not always a problem. A lot depends on the temperaments of the females involved. Get two dominant, high-energy, high-drive, territorial bitches of similar age together and there will probably be bloodshed at some point. 

I've had females that got along beautifully, and I've had females that fought. Once they start fighting, you either have to re-home one, or spend the rest of your life managing the household so that they are never allowed to run together. Most households don't want to deal with the latter.

But I have to say, that pup doesn't look at all GSD to me. My first thought was Leonberger, though I sort of doubt that she's a purebred of any stripe. Very, very cute pup, though! She should have no trouble being adopted back out if you take her back to the rescue now. If you're going to take her back, do it now, so she'll have the best chance at adoption. People like young puppies. Adolescent puppies, not so much.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jerm138 said:


> Something else that piqued my interest regarding the articles about bitch-bitch aggression... they focused a lot on whether they were spayed after their first heat.
> Guinness was spayed before ever going into heat and I intended to do the same with this puppy.


So was Libby. It made no difference. Or maybe it did. Some studies show the lack of estrogen can make girls more aggressive, not less.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

That puppy looks at the MOST half-German Shepherd, definately not pure, it may not even have a German Shepherd personality.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jerm138 said:


> Something else that piqued my interest regarding the articles about bitch-bitch aggression... they focused a lot on whether they were spayed after their first heat.
> Guinness was spayed before ever going into heat and I intended to do the same with this puppy.


No difference. All of ours are spayed. Jax before her first heat, Sierra at 3 yrs. Banshee before and she's always been a bit snarky.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

I don't know how I missed this thread the first time, but I'm glad I found it today.

OP, where did you rescue this puppy from? I ask, because your puppy looks eerily similar to the puppy that showed up at my house last week. I did talk to the original owner, but they got the puppy from a friend, who got it from a friend and so on. I got the impression they really didn't want me to know where the puppy came from originally. Now I wonder......

And the vet suspects that my new puppy is between 2-3 months old as well.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Here, I found a better picture with more of the same angle.

I'd love to put them up side by side, but I'm not sure if that breaks any board rules.










Am I just reaching.....or do I see a similarity?


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

they do look exactly alike!! Beau...are you the one that someone left the pupy with a note in your barn? i thought the puppies looked exactly the same too but didnt know if you were in same area as the OP of this thread


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

That's me! I missed this thread until today.

And I don't know where the OP lives! I just hope they come back to the board!


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Beau said:


> That's me! I missed this thread until today.
> 
> And I don't know where the OP lives! I just hope they come back to the board!


Now the suspense builds...


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Hoping the OP will come back......


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

did you send them a personal message? maybe they will respond quicker that way?? but of course we are all very curious now!!! those puppies look so much alike they have to be related!!


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

I did send a PM. I haven't heard anything back yet.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

Wow! The two dogs do look like twins.


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