# Still Reactive (on leash) and NOTHING is working



## track1636 (Jan 27, 2013)

Sorry, this is a bit long, but I want to provide as much detail as possible. To start, I posted about this a while back when our GSD was still a puppy and just starting her first obedience class. She is now over a year old, and she is still reactive when she is on her leash (i.e. on a walk, at the park, etc). She is great around people, and great around other dogs when she is NOT on a leash, but when we try to walk her, if she can see, or even HEAR another dog, she absolutely freaks out and starts jumping, lunging, barking/whining, etc. Here is what we have tried:

1. Obedience classes at 4 months (which is when we realized she was reactive, hence the class did not go well)
2. Private training using BAT (although we did work around the outside of a dog park to work on her seeing other dogs while on leash)- I cannot say this was effective
3. Growly/reactive dog classes (also did not go well, since there were other dogs around)
4. I have read and tried to apply the methods in the Controlled Unleashed book
5. We have tried using high value treats, medium value treats for reward, but these do not even get her attention
6. We have tried bringing the ball (her favorite), bringing a squeaky toy, etc for distraction from the other dogs, nothing.
7. We have tried walking her with and without our husky (who is VERY neutral, and does not react at all, to anything) and it doesn't seem to make any difference
8. We have also tried using the thunder leash which applies pressure around her chest (supposed to be calming)- again, no success.

So far, nothing is working. Since she is getting older, I am starting to get worried that we just may not be able to walk her, resulting in us not walking either dog since it would be really sad to leave her home while we walk out husky. 

We currently use a martingale (flat) collar with either a leather leash, or her thunder leash. Her body language is very interesting as well on walks. She crouches lower to the ground, and is always frantically looking around. She has completely lost the heel command (this was lost during the BAT training because our trainer insisted on letting her 'just walk' and not focus on her placement behind/beside me). I think she refuses to heel because it is almost as if she wants to get out in front so she can see what is around every corner, or bush, or tree before I get to it. I have tried to reinforce the heel command, but it has not been successful. Another big issue, is that it is almost impossible to prevent the anxiety and her reaction because she gets frantic if she can even HEAR another dog, and there is a dog behind almost every fence in our neighborhood, so this makes it even more difficult. 

Is there anything I am missing? Anything else I can try? We cannot afford to send her away to a trainer (which I know others have done, and some have found success), so that is not an option as of right now. I am just about out of options. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, and I am sorry if this was too wordy.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i can sympathize with walking a reactive dog. the walks become a chore more than it is quiet time. NOT FUN!

depending on how fearful she is, sometimes leash reactivity just cant be fix but only managed. the fact that shes going crazy just to the sound of a dog barking is pretty extreme. 

another idea is ecollar. i have seen an ecollar work on some very feaful and some very aggressive dogs. an ecollar used correctly isnt a correction device; its a device to help change the way the dog perceives certain things. of course you would need to find a trainer in your area that is knowledgable about ecollars. if an ecollar is used incorrectly on a fearful dog, it could destroy the mental state of the dog. 

if nothing works you might just have to accept that it cant be fixed and only managed. maybe find a large field where both dogs can run around in?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Being in California, I would talk to Lou Castle about his ecollar protocol. At this point it is worth a go.

As far as not walking the husky because it would be sad to leave her home while you walk him*. The concept of fairness is, as I understand it, very human and not doglike. Don't "punish" the husky for her issues. A reactive dog is happier when not pressured by the outside world so it is not bad for her to do things with him.

I had one fear-reactive dog and the heel command and focus on me / obedience is what allowed me to walk/control him in all kinds of scenarios. In no way am I an expert on aggression, though and there are actually all kinds of resources in California to help.

*I don't know if husky is boy or girl but just used "him"


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I wouldn't jump to an e collar if you haven't tried a prong. Have you tried a prong? High value treats aren't used as a reward but rather getting the dog to focus on you. You can't just take a dog like this right into a class or near other dogs until you work up to that point. Has she been evaluated by someone that knows the breed? Are there any GSD clubs near you? First thing you need to do is teach the watch and leave it commands. Teach these at home before you take her out. If she doesn't know them then she isn't going to do them. I used to stand 20 ft away from the entrance of Petsmart, with raw venison in hand. You have to be more aware then she is. You see a dog and your dog should already be in a sit focused on you. The prong will give you more control. I only stood for one dog for several days then I'd wait for two dogs for a couple days,etc . Go to the park and sit 25-50 ft away, the closest you can without a reaction and get focus on you. If she breaks focus and your losing her, take some treats and throw them in opposite direction of oncoming dog so your dog goes into hunt mode. If walking toward a dog, turn around and say in a happy voice lets go, while almost jogging, it breaks the focus on the other dog. That's just a small combination of what I did to get past the reactivity. If you know anyone with a solid dog that your dog can be around that is a plus. Once that happened for us we were on our way to getting right. I declined using a private trainer, classes behind barricades didn't work. I also went through several trainers before I found one that both the dog and I liked. You can also use a ball, I found that mine used the ball almost like a person would use those stress balls in their hands.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I wouldn't jump to an e collar if you haven't tried a prong. Have you tried a prong? High value treats aren't used as a reward but rather getting the dog to focus on you. You can't just take a dog like this right into a class or near other dogs until you work up to that point. Has she been evaluated by someone that knows the breed? Are there any GSD clubs near you? First thing you need to do is teach the watch and leave it commands. Teach these at home before you take her out. If she doesn't know them then she isn't going to do them. I used to stand 20 ft away from the entrance of Petsmart, with raw venison in hand. You have to be more aware then she is. You see a dog and your dog should already be in a sit focused on you. The prong will give you more control. I only stood for one dog for several days then I'd wait for two dogs for a couple days,etc . Go to the park and sit 25-50 ft away, the closest you can without a reaction and get focus on you. If she breaks focus and your losing her, take some treats and throw them in opposite direction of oncoming dog so your dog goes into hunt mode. If walking toward a dog, turn around and say in a happy voice lets go, while almost jogging, it breaks the focus on the other dog. That's just a small combination of what I did to get past the reactivity. If you know anyone with a solid dog that your dog can be around that is a plus. Once that happened for us we were on our way to getting right. I declined using a private trainer, classes behind barricades didn't work. I also went through several trainers before I found one that both the dog and I liked. You can also use a ball, I found that mine used the ball almost like a person would use those stress balls in their hands.


You didn't say how you would use the prong, or address how it would offer more control. Could you explain this?

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

This is probably one of those cases where the OP is over thinking. I'd just straight up mark the behavior with a no and punish it till the dog stopped and be done with it.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Op check the Tyler Muto video channel. Many clips on how to use leash pressure and a place command to train a dog to be less reactive and calm. Also some clips on how to fit and use a prong correctly.
Tyler Muto - YouTube



> sometimes leash reactivity just cant be fix but only managed.


I think leash reactivity can be fixed. It is usually caused by the owner in the first place through lack of experience. It's not like pups are born leash reactive.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

every time I read posts like this or get phone calls with the same problems I have to think about inappropriate , high pressured , early socialization . I would say there are more and more and more than before , running a parallel course to problems with "allergies".

it would seem that these behavioural problems have a base in the dogs nature , which is nurtured -- and instead of a steady dog that can cope with its own potential , you have a troubled dog.

more dogs are euthanized due to behavioural problems . 

this is unfortunate "1. Obedience classes at 4 months (which is when we realized she was reactive, hence the class did not go well)"
because this is probably when your dog met her threshold , and told you so , unnoticed, continued with the course while the dog conditioned to a response -- 

in young dogs you have to be in tune and observant 

did you use a dog park to socialize her?

this "We have tried using high value treats, medium value treats for reward, but these do not even get her attention" indicates that you have passed beyond the comfort zone and all the dogs attention is being sucked in by whatever the trigger is . she is in a different zone , can't hear you , see you , too much stimulation / attraction . stress . you need to move away .

you can't distract her until you increase your distance from what ever is upsetting her . allow the dog to soothe her self , find that calm , without more crazy-making with more stimulation , squeaky toys . 

don't forget that emotions have a chemical base -- adrenaline , cortisol . when you are stressed , let's say you just got the news that a loved one was in a car accident you can not learn new things and will have major difficulty answering questions to which you know the answers -- this is sort of the dogs frame of mind when they are so over the top . settle down first .

you will have to restart socialization all over again .
choose locations and times when you are able to be totally calm and focused on the dog , no cell phones , or friends , no dogs or people to be met . you and the dog alone together , on lead only because you are going to have to make it a very pleasant experience - a release to off lead will spoil that . 

the worst thing you could do for this dog is to punish until it stopped.

punish is not correct --- and for this dog at this point , no way.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

David Winners said:


> You didn't say how you would use the prong, or address how it would offer more control. Could you explain this?
> 
> David Winners


In my dog it stopped the lunging and pulling when he seen another dog. In the beginning I hardly ever had to correct him he did it himself most of the time. Once he started to get better I was able to use it very effectively with leave it....a light correction, leave it, good boy(with high value treat in beginning)worked for him. Never give correction without telling the dog what you want is how I did it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ok ya got me the science behind operant conditioning is total bs and doesnt work.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A prong for reactiveness would work depending the reason WHY the dog is reactive. My rescue was reactive, and intense obedience classes, with tons of proofing, proofing, proofing working with other dogs and a prong to NOT allow reactive behaviour, but focused heel on me worked, but her reactiveness came from a place of wanting to control and dominate other dogs. What she learned from this is that I was in control, and she was not allowed to overstep the behavioural line I layed down for her. 

In the OPs case, the reactiveness sounds like extreme fear (crouching close to the ground, reacting to barking without even seeing the other dog), and corrections would be counter productive, and even make things worse. In this case, you need to teach a dog a default replacement behaviour that automatically kicks in when triggered by the sound or presence of an other dog.

I'd continue looking for one-on-one training with trainers experienced with this type of thing. I'd consider Nancy's and Baillif's advice. Also agree that your Husky should not be punished because you are having issues with your girl. Your GSD probably doesn't even like her walks, being so scared out of her mind all the time, and would be happier staying home. You are fair when you meet your dogs' needs, even if their needs are vastly different.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I wasnt completly clear. Punish the reactive one. The fearful one you shouldnt. You shouldnt punish fear as an emotional state. In the case of fear its much more complicated. There is a ton of lit out there but its really something to go to a trainer about in person


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Have you tried straight up classical conditioning? It might be worth a shot. 

First, this requires some way to exercise her so that she doesn't have to deal with other dogs in the process. If you can't provide that, don't bother with what I'm about to suggest next:

Pick the lowest level of stimulus she can tolerate *without* reacting. This might be a dog barking on TV or in the distance. Give her a food reward every time she is exposed to the stimulus. When she hears a dog bark and looks at you for a treat, you are ready to increase the level of difficulty. Only increase one aspect at a time (distance, duration, volume, visibility). This takes a while but it creates very "sticky" behaviors.

If you are like most people, you don't have total control over your environment, nor hours of free time to counter-condition your dog. What I did was use a prong collar to enforce obedience commands my dog already knew. We would work on obedience with other dogs in the distance, and in a few months up close. I still have her treats for obeying and treats for looking at me instead of the other dog. Pick whatever your dog is really good at for a "replacement behavior" for being reactive. Sit and down are good because they give you control and you can enforce them with the prong collar. 

Good luck. I know how frustrating this is. I did pretty much all of the things you tried, and after the fact I realized that the trainers I was working with were of very poor quality: they had studied these techniques in school, but they did not understand dogs, just theory. The growly dog class was a joke.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think this is relevant from the op



> She is great around people, and great around other dogs when she is NOT on a leash


It suggests the dog is stable in other situations which may imply a stable enough temperament. But on leash she has developed the fear/aggression



> if she can see, or even HEAR another dog, she absolutely freaks out and starts jumping, lunging, barking/whining,.....She crouches lower to the ground, and is always frantically looking around.


This behavior can be associated with prey drive as well. I think the dog is stuck between prey and defense when on the leash.

Plus the dog is at a transition stage from young to adult with her hormones kicking off.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Based on the fact that it's on leash only I'm not to sure if it's fear either . If it was fear it would be on and off leash or at least that is what I would think. Crouching lower or putting head lower? Can mean two different things. This dog is crouching and focused on everything except her owner, when she is looking for trouble. Once she sees a dog, she is not crouching anymore she is now in full alert and wants to get to the dog. Since she is good with other dogs off leash, it leads me to believe that she just doesn't know how to greet another dog and gets frustrated and excited.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I've had similar experiences with my pup. He was in a puppy manners class at 4 months, started going to the dog park at 9 months, started have puppy play dates with our neighbor's puppy at 12 months...and meets lots of loose dogs frequently, just being on our property.

Off leash he's fine. On leash he's a barking fool. I might be a brute, stuck in the dark ages of dog training, but to me it seems like my pup is acting up because he's restrained. Nothing is different except he's no longer free to rush up to the dogs, so to to me it seems like a frustrated behavior, not "reactive." 

I don't punish my dog for barking or lunging, but I do ask for "Quiet" (and correct, if blown off) and if we're meeting other dogs along a walk I'll just ignore the dogs and expect my dog to follow my example - which if I'm _really_ good at it, he will. But that means I don't even acknowledge the other dog. That's a tough one, because most people aren't expecting someone to waltz past without even making friendly eye contact, let alone saying, "Hi" in return. But this does work.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> I've had similar experiences with my pup. He was in a puppy manners class at 4 months, started going to the dog park at 9 months, started have puppy play dates with our neighbor's puppy at 12 months...and meets lots of loose dogs frequently, just being on our property.
> 
> Off leash he's fine. On leash he's a barking fool. I might be a brute, stuck in the dark ages of dog training, but to me it seems like my pup is acting up because he's restrained. Nothing is different except he's no longer free to rush up to the dogs, so to to me it seems like a frustrated behavior, not "reactive."
> 
> I don't punish my dog for barking or lunging, but I do ask for "Quiet" (and correct, if blown off) and if we're meeting other dogs along a walk I'll just ignore the dogs and expect my dog to follow my example - which if I'm _really_ good at it, he will. But that means I don't even acknowledge the other dog. That's a tough one, because most people aren't expecting someone to waltz past without even making friendly eye contact, let alone saying, "Hi" in return. But this does work.


As long as he is reacting then he's reactive. The biggest thing is to figure out what kind of reactivity it is. Aggression? Frustration ? Over excited?, etc.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Reactive is a vague term just like correction is a vague term. What the OP is describing isn't what I'd call reactive. I'd call it a dog acting like a hooligan. That's good news though as that is way way easier to fix.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's the thing, I don't get the "reactive" label, when it pertains to leashed behavior. If it was a constant behavior then that would be different. Then I be able to say, "Oh yeah, my dog is reactive to other dogs, look at him acting in 'such and such' a manner." But it's not that: he's great until he's unable to satisfy himself, he can't get to them because he's leashed. To me that isn't "reactive."

ETA: yes, hooligan


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah I'm right there with you on that one. It's euphemistic on top of that. Just like the word correction. Was it positive punishment was it negative punishment was it negative reinforcement? People would rather say I corrected the dog rather than I punished the dog even if they both did the exact same procedure at the exact same intensity on the exact same dog for the exact same situation.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Been there, it sucks, I know.

Here's what worked for us in regards to walking:

Teach a heel. It requires focus. If you turn, your dog should be paying enough attention to you to turn with you. Make sure your dog understands heel. Teach it in private, with no dogs around. After your dog understands, try light distractions. When they break focus, give a prong correction and say no, heel. 

Then, when you encounter a dog, tell your dog to heel and switch directions at first, if your dog stops and stares at the other dog or breaks the focus on you, again prong correction + "no, heel" and continue walking. If your dog loses their mind and starts barking, same thing. You are now correcting for breaking heel command - something they understand "if I stop paying attention to mom/dad's heel command, I get a correction", not for 'seeing other dogs'. Eventually other dogs won't be a big deal because they know to focus on you. 

If your dog is squatting down all scared all the time and is not just being a butthead, I dont know if this is a good approach. It's hard to tell. My dog likes other dogs off leash, but for awhile on leash she would try this stuff.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol, Baillif - too true. It's like when a thread gets out of control and inevitably someone will back out, with a comment about going off to train their dog. Uh, my dog is actually getting trained while I'm typing...lol...but seriously - he's relaxing at my side, being trained on house manners.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

After reading all these posts, I'd have to say that we had success using similar methods that _*llombardo*_ explained. With a dog just over a year old they are still adolescent and training will still be challenging. I think it took 4-6 months of this type of training, when our dog was about your dog's age, you need to be consistent and patient. 

About the prong, it worked best for control on walks and at obedience class, plus our dog was not treat driven when younger. Once our dog had diminished reactions, we removed the prong. Once we were able to get in closer contact with other dogs, for us the prong seemed to be a negative association. 

You said your dog likes to walk out in front of you - using a prong may give you more control of your dog. You could let her walk out in front and ease her fears and stop and let her smell and explore more.Myabe she would enjoy the walk more and be less fearful? I'll probably get yelled out by members here, but we seldom make our dog heel, only if we are in a very crowded area or walking closely past another dog. I love observing the way our dog is so watchful and vigilant, head turning left and right, air smelling, tracking smells on the ground. Is there an area you can walk with your dog that is more quiet, can you get out of your neighborhood in a quiet area to practice heeling for a bit, then have a fun walk?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You won't get yelled out by me, Gretchen. I also dislike the formal heeling. That's why I wouldn't do what mego suggests - not that this is a "wrong" way, it's just not something I'd do. I actually found that distracting my pup with a tug worked much better for us, when he was younger.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i would suggest you find a really good trainer to evaluate your dog before you listen to a bunch of internet advice to correct your dog. its tough to say where the reactivity comes from based on a description on the internet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the issue can't just be the leash --

do you have control of the dog when she is off leash and there are dogs present --- or is she blowing you off running around like a maniac with them ?

can you have control , get desirable behaviour off leash ? 

total package of relationship problem 

"Another big issue, is that it is almost impossible to prevent the anxiety and her reaction because she gets frantic if she can even HEAR another dog" -- so you are saying it is not a generalized anxiety ?


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

If board & train is too much, can you try 1:1 or even group lessons with an experienced local working dog trainer? Sometimes what the owner sees / interprets can be different from what an experienced dog trainer sees. Also to correct a dog, timing and level of intensity is very important to be effective. Until then, is it possible to drive the dog to an area where she won't have to encounter so many things that will set her off so that she can focus on the walk and relax? 

When you say she's ok around other dogs off leash - how often and what are the situations of this? Is it with strange dogs she's never met or dogs she grew up with? Does she play or interact with them? Have you tested this with a wide variety of dogs or limited to a handful she's familiar with and is in a controlled environment with just 1 other dog?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Baillif said:


> Reactive is a vague term just like correction is a vague term. What the OP is describing isn't what I'd call reactive. I'd call it a dog acting like a hooligan. That's good news though as that is way way easier to fix.


Lunging and barking at other dogs isn't reactive?

Here is an explanation of reactive, it's the same anywhere you look.

What is reactivity? | Paws Abilities


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not just lunging and barking and being "growly" -- the distraction is so intense that the owner has no access to the dog, not for high value food reward, or toys , even a thunder leash -- while the dog is so over the top there is no control -- that is reactive to a T . Short of a sedative drug , while RESCUE may be helpful, all has been tried .

I bet you the dog is reactive when on leash as well . That is why I asked what the behaviour was at the dog park with other dogs . 

the dog is frustrated , so is the owner , to exhaustion -- 

you have to set up sessions where you guide the dog into proper behaviour without the distraction of her triggers, dogs, people , whatever 

at all times the dog needs to know that you can be trusted and fair 

I think if you do heavy corrections on leash you will drive a dog into avoidance when the leash comes out --


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

In that article, is says that frustration can be the cause of reactivity. It says not to punish reactivity. It says to work with your dog to teach it to communicate its frustration in other ways. 

How? Or more specifically, in exactly which manner? I'd like my pup to stop screaming, "Let me at him!" when he's leashed and sees another dog. Instead, I'd like my pup to politely ask to be unclipped from the leash and be allowed some chase games.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not unclipped , refocused, move away , by the time he is screaming you have already gone to close . 
I want , I want , give me or I am going to make a scene --- 

show the dog proper behaviour all the time - it doesn't matter whether it is the sight of another dog (which should not be so inviting to begin with for a properly socialized dog) --- or someone coming over knocking on the door , or the dog barking at the window at someone walking on the sidewalk on the opposite side of the street.

I know someone who had their bouvier break through a front window pane to go on a chase ---


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> You won't get yelled out by me, Gretchen. I also dislike the formal heeling. That's why I wouldn't do what mego suggests - not that this is a "wrong" way, it's just not something I'd do. I actually found that distracting my pup with a tug worked much better for us, when he was younger.


yeah I alternate between just letting my dog roam on the leash as she pleases and formal heeling. We use the environment/sniffing as a reward for good walking because my dog isn't that food driven and didn't show much interest in toys outside til older (now on the other hand ). Definitely agree to try using a tug to distract is easier and a really good option!!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I can understand what youre getting at carmen and for fear cases id say great do it. For frustration or hooligan dog cases its much quicker and cleaner to use negative reinforcement and positive punishment methods to quickly stop the behavior and gain access to a pause in which you can reward alternate acceptable behaviors while still in the presence of a trigger.

Find a good sport trainer they'll fix that problem in under 3 sessions. Or you can go the long route and lat bat and crap your way to a 4000 dollar behavioral modification bill 3 months later.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

track1636 said:


> We currently use a martingale (flat) collar with either a leather leash, or her thunder leash. *Her body language is very interesting as well on walks. She crouches lower to the ground, and is always frantically looking around*. She has completely lost the heel command (this was lost during the BAT training because our trainer insisted on letting her 'just walk' and not focus on her placement behind/beside me). I think she refuses to heel because it is almost as if she wants to get out in front so she can see what is around every corner, or bush, or tree before I get to it. I have tried to reinforce the heel command, but it has not been successful. Another big issue, is that it is almost impossible to prevent the anxiety and her reaction because she gets frantic if she can even HEAR another dog, and there is a dog behind almost every fence in our neighborhood, so this makes it even more difficult.
> 
> Is there anything I am missing? Anything else I can try? We cannot afford to send her away to a trainer (which I know others have done, and some have found success), so that is not an option as of right now. I am just about out of options. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, and I am sorry if this was too wordy.


I didn't realize this the first time. If she crouches like that all the time and not just when dogs around I would probably add some confidence building exercises while leashed. It kind of sounds like she is paranoid about everything from that description. Maybe you can make her sit before corners and you walk first and encourage her to follow you around it. 

The reason I always suggest some sort of heel, it doens't have to be super schutzhund style-face up, flashy, just something where they stay close to you..is because it's something they know and can default on when they are in that situation where they are feeling anxious and don't know what to do. In a heel, you are making the decision where to go. 

Like Baillif said, if it's just the dog being a jerk, it can be fixed really fast. but like I said up there, kinda sounds more like really bad anxiety in general


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I can understand what youre getting at carmen and for fear cases id say great do it. For frustration or hooligan dog cases its much quicker and cleaner to use negative reinforcement and positive punishment methods to quickly stop the behavior and gain access to a pause in which you can reward alternate acceptable behaviors while still in the presence of a trigger.
> 
> Find a good sport trainer they'll fix that problem in under 3 sessions. Or you can go the long route and lat bat and crap your way to a 4000 dollar behavioral modification bill 3 months later.


you would call a dog who is anxious and walking with its head low to the ground frustrated?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I consider mine a hooligan case because it's always the same story, no matter what the cause. It's always the same 'carrying on' to be released. If I take him to a play date or if I take him for a swim: he's on leash until we get there. In a perfect world I'd wait until he was calm, and in a relaxed sit, before unclipping him. But the reality is, he's still overexcited even if he is in a sitting position. I can't convey to him that I want him to chill out first before the release, which is definitely a shortcoming on my part.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> You didn't say how you would use the prong, or address how it would offer more control. Could you explain this?
> 
> David Winners


Yep prongs can offer very fast and quick results if you use them correctly! But very easy to misuse!

I screwed up with one on my first dog! I trained 4 other dogs to walk very well on leash, The only one that was always a PIA on leash (off leash he was fine) was the only one I (misused) a prong collar on!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Baillif said:


> I can understand what youre getting at carmen and for fear cases id say great do it. For frustration or hooligan dog cases its much quicker and cleaner to use negative reinforcement and positive punishment methods to quickly stop the behavior and gain access to a pause in which you can reward alternate acceptable behaviors while still in the presence of a trigger.
> 
> Find a good sport trainer they'll fix that problem in under 3 sessions. Or you can go the long route and lat bat and crap your way to a 4000 dollar behavioral modification bill 3 months later.


I disagree because I went through it and its reactivity plain and simple. Nothing about working with a reactive dog is quick and clean. Taking the time needed to fix it, fixes it permanently and isn't a band aid. I did it myself so it doesn't cost thousands, you just have to be willing to put time and patience into it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> I consider mine a hooligan case because it's always the same story, no matter what the cause. It's always the same 'carrying on' to be released. If I take him to a play date or if I take him for a swim: he's on leash until we get there. In a perfect world I'd wait until he was calm, and in a relaxed sit, before unclipping him. But the reality is, he's still overexcited even if he is in a sitting position. I can't convey to him that I want him to chill out first before the release, which is definitely a shortcoming on my part.


What about a "Down" and "stay"?? If he won't do that..I'd say it's the first part of the problem?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> you would call a dog who is anxious and walking with its head low to the ground frustrated?


Easily could be. Ive seen dogs come flying outside full of energy in a crouch sniffing frantically that were just super caught up in everything in their environment aside from the handler. They. Go feral. Wasnt fear just the dog going nuts who was normally massively under-stimulated.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Chip18, he can follow the commands. But to me, if he's shaking - literally bouncing in anticipation of the release - then this is what I believe I need to work on. I just don't know how. Maybe maturity will help?


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Easily could be. Ive seen dogs come flying outside full of energy in a crouch sniffing frantically that were just super caught up in everything in their environment aside from the handler. They. Go feral. Wasnt fear just the dog going nuts who was normally massively under-stimulated.


guess we have a different view. a dog sniffing frantically can very easily be just super hyped up. a dog with its head hung low or in a crouch reminds me of a dog that has just been corrected HARD. thats the same type of body language i think of when i hear a dog with its head hung low and in a crouch. basically in fear.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You can't generalize without seeing the dog firsthand. When I think of a dog crouching with its head low, I think of a dog initiating play.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> You can't generalize without seeing the dog firsthand. When I think of a dog crouching with its head low, I think of a dog initiating play.


initiating play with what? if you read the original post the dog is like that when walking down the sidewalk.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> initiating play with what? if you read the original post the dog is like that when walking down the sidewalk.


If it is more stalking behavior than avoidant behavior, it could be anything from play to prey to dog aggression. I've seen all three from my female when she is crouching and walking with lowered head. It's just impossible to know without seeing the dog. It could also be fearfulness but again, hard to know since all we have to go on is OP's description.

Even seeing my dog in person, different trainers and behaviorists couldn't agree what my dog's body language meant. Sometimes you just have to work on the things that will help ALL dogs: confidence, obedience, distraction-proofing, self-soothing behavior, impulse control. Working on these things will help whether the dog is fearful or just frustrated. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

If I remember correctly a dog with its head down and sniffing the ground is a calming signal. So is this dog smelling the ground when it's crouching?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think all this discussion is why someone who knows what they are doing needs to SEE the dog in person and size up the situation. 

Maybe we could point the OP to some good folks in Southern California to do this. I suggested Lou. I am sure there are others.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I know personally while I've picked up some pointers from this forum, the best teachers are those that can evaluate and work with you in person. Also time is a huge factor, as already stated reactivity is almost never cured overnight, it can easily take months of consistent training and rewards. My rule of thumb when Delgado was particularly bad was go week to week, if I saw improvement from the previous week, no matter how little I knew I was on the right track. If I didn't I stepped back and went back to what worked previously


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Her body language is very interesting as well on walks. She crouches lower to the ground, and is always frantically looking around.


You forrgot to say "with her tail up" - ? She is hunting. And, she has reached that age when young dogs start to hunt larger prey. The use of any tool like this or that collar when you tell her "Heel" only increases your problem, because the lead automatically puts you in a position of inferior whom she drags after herself. The lead became more than just an obstacle in "heel" training, like with "forbidden fruit is sweeter" concept, the lead became an indicator that there's really something to hunt. It is useless to compare situation on your walk with your visits to the park or class, where the smells are familiar, the smell of an unknown dog works absolutely differently on your dog's brain. First of all, it is easier to isolate it from environment, than in the doggy-stinky park, then, it is challenging, thirdly - the outcome of meeting unknown dog, probably, is unknown to her. Friendly dogs could not be interesting, because they don't remind of a prey, that are those big or small who may challenge back.
I suggest you using a different command and continue training off leash. But prior to this she sshould be trained to carry her toy on walks where no dogs roam the area. This thing JW Pet Tough By Nature? Chompion Middleweight Rubber Dumbbell Dog Toy -- 1 Toy - Vitacost you can kick, it will bonce safely without straying on the road, you can chop off two balls out of it if you like, they still would be bouncy and safe. Use it exclusively for walking, it is very easy to train your dog to carry an object this way. This dumpbell/ball would stay between your dog and that dog, ask her to give it to you and throw it in some other direction, walk yourself after the ball, or even run, if she doesn't. But she may drop it and start to advance. Only she drops it and starts stalking unknown dog - ask her to pick it. Use a command in a different tone, than you tell usually, *impart dissapointment*: "Oh, no! you forgot it again..." Pick it, make a turn 180 degree and start walking away immediately. When she gets well enough with the whole issue, start to use her toy as a tool for training "Heel" simply taking it out of her mouth and holding in your right hand with arm bent to your chest.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> Chip18, he can follow the commands. But to me, if he's shaking - literally bouncing in anticipation of the release - then this is what I believe I need to work on. I just don't know how. Maybe maturity will help?


Ugh,my dog got "new" never seen problems at maturity so I wouldn't count on that!

My take on the crouching is stalking behaviour also? But we can't tell as none of us has seen the dog! 

At the very least a session with a pro not (Petco) would be valuable. But backing up to the statement above....the above is what you need to work on that's not acceptable behaviour!

Does he have reliable recall at all? If he does no problem, if he doesn't then there is your first problem. If he won't come "reliability" then train him on a long line. My dogs are always on a line until they have 100% recall.

I don't know where you live but...find someplace with out distractions. I recommend office districts on the weekends, usually no cars no people and no dogs!

Just work on Sit, Stay and Down. That's the time when high value treats are useful! Sit he gets a treat, Down he gets a treat, Stay he gets a treat! If he breaks at any point no treat and a firm bad dog! And back to where he was and start over.

Even my Rocky he gave me serious grief at "maturity" could do this. Maybe that's why I never had a lot of the other issues I read about don't know?

The prong collar can get quick results but again or very easy to abuse by the inexperienced! I trashed my first dog using one because I "thought" I knew how to use one! So yeah....

Again if you work on the basics get them 100% make sure the dog understands what is required of him after that if he breaks a command then you can start to give corrections!

Once he has those down, he'll have more discipline and should be easier to manage, maybe some of the other stuff will disappear?

But yeah, don't count on Maturity as training tool, that might not workout to well! 

Additionally there is no harm in getting an evaluation on your dog, I did with my first dog my Bull Mastiff/PittMix I thought he was a Dominant Aggressive Male. The trainer said no your dogs not aggressive, he's just an A hole!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Another video 




And also if the dogs being a butt this gong to be really hard but...if you increase tension on the leash that tells the dog..."to be prepared for action!" The exact opposite of what you want to accomplish.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

My dog does that when hes anxious or unsure of himself. Especially if I let him get ahead of me on walks. Im not a professional, but I think what your explaining is the same thing. Fear or nervous.


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## track1636 (Jan 27, 2013)

HI all, thank you for so many comments, ideas and suggestions. I did not expect to see so many involved when I logged in today. For a few clarification points, she is not stalking when she is low to the ground. She is scared, frantically looking around. I have seen her stalking when she is playing with our other dog, and it is too very different stances. Also, we did not leave her in obedience class as we realized from the second class it was too much for her to take. So I worked her around the outskirts of the class and in the park next door working on all of the commands. She is very well trained, and comes on command. She knows every other command (sit, stay, lay down, leave it, halt, wait, look at me, etc), minus heeling, as I mentioned, she lost that command during the BAT training. I am working everyday to get her to heel again. 

I have worked with several different trainers and people who know GSD's, and all of them have told me to stay away from prong/choke collars, so we have not gone down that route yet. I have not tried an e-collar, but I will absolutely look into it. I just do not want to make it worse at this point. 

I can also say, that I sure do not appreciate some of the negative comments. I am 100% invested in my dog and I this is not my first GSD, so I am not an expert by any means, but I am certainly not a novice. We have socialized her a lot with all different types of dogs, people and environments. This is only an issue when she is on her leash. If I take her off her leash, she loves other dogs, and will play and have a great time. As soon as click on the leash, its like her entire demeanor changes. 

I am not a fan of punishment, and that may work for some of your dogs, but it does not work for this dog. She is a very sensitive dog, and she is scared, so beating her or spanking her over and over isn't going to work. 

I also do not squeak toys and bring her balls, etc all at once, and I do not use them to overstimulate her or excite her, obviously. I was simply trying to list the various methods we have tried so other posters did not suggest things we have already tried. 

For those of you who did not read my initial post, we tried BAT training for 4 months. I know when she is about to go over her threshold and I do my best to move her out of the situation before she goes over threshold, but as I mentioned she is almost in a sense getting worse since she now panics at the sound of a dog, versus just the sight of a dog, which makes it very difficult to keep her under threshold. 

Sorry if I seem defensive, but I certainly did not post this to get negative comments. Again, I appreciate the positive and HELPFUL feedback from all of you. I will try to continue answering the questions as I see them.


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## track1636 (Jan 27, 2013)

Hi Mego, We do sit at every corner, and work the halt command as well. She is a rather confident dog in her commands, because she does them all very well. It is just she is super insecure when walking on a leash. I will still work on building her confidence though. That is a great point.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Another video How to teach your dog to STOP pulling! (part 1) - YouTube
> 
> And also if the dogs being a butt this gong to be really hard but...if you increase tension on the leash that tells the dog..."to be prepared for action!" The exact opposite of what you want to accomplish.


That guy is seriously creepy!


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Is there a park or place you can walk your dog where your not in a neighborhood. For example I drive my dog to the trail and huge park, sk that we avoid all the neighborhood dogs barking.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jack's Dad said:


> That guy is seriously creepy!


LOL, yes but his advice looks solid to me. That kind of training could be done in a back yard or an empty parking lot.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

track1636 said:


> HI all, thank you for so many comments, ideas and suggestions. I did not expect to see so many involved when I logged in today. For a few clarification points, she is not stalking when she is low to the ground. She is scared, frantically looking around. I have seen her stalking when she is playing with our other dog, and it is too very different stances. Also, we did not leave her in obedience class as we realized from the second class it was too much for her to take. So I worked her around the outskirts of the class and in the park next door working on all of the commands. She is very well trained, and comes on command. She knows every other command (sit, stay, lay down, leave it, halt, wait, look at me, etc), minus heeling, as I mentioned, she lost that command during the BAT training. I am working everyday to get her to heel again.
> 
> I have worked with several different trainers and people who know GSD's, and all of them have told me to stay away from prong/choke collars, so we have not gone down that route yet. I have not tried an e-collar, but I will absolutely look into it. I just do not want to make it worse at this point.
> 
> ...


You might have gotten ticked off but in the above you did clarify a lot of things so now we know it's a fearful dog. It's going to take more time. 

I think creepy guys techniques could work, you could do that in the back yard or the house or an empty parking lot,

She has to know that you will protect her! Sounds like she's just not sure? And that is not about you it's what "I" think your dog thinks? Right now your dog feels that she has to protect herself from all the bad stuff.

I think an empty parking lot or your back yard (I'm assuming you have one) is the best course of action for the loose leash stuff as shown in the video. If the walks cause more stress than benefit for her, they aren't worth doing.

Now this one is a judgment call that only you can make. I strive for no bad experiences for my dogs ever! I've been both skilled and lucky over the years and that has been the case.

So with that as a goal in mind...forget that she likes the dog park, if "she" considers any part of getting there a bad experience...I'd avoid it!

Train her in the yard at some point she should take to it. At the point she no longer has an issue with the leash try a short walk. If she tightens up go home. 

And now that you have cleared up a lot of the small details, I think we can safely say forget the E collar and you already said the prong was a no go! I think we can safely assume that you can't shock fear out of a dog! 

I can't say in my experience this is what I did. I can say as Joe Q semi average pet guy this is what I'd try.

You don't need a trainer with this approach because you'd not be putting your dog at risk or under stress, give it shot for a month or so and see how she does?

The only tool you really need is time! 

And this thread address what carmspack was talking about, bottom line early socialization
can be the source of problems and not the solution! It just happens that I did late socialization with my guy and he turned out fine...serious I don't like people issues! 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Another video How to teach your dog to STOP pulling! (part 1) - YouTube
> 
> And also if the dogs being a butt this gong to be really hard but...if you increase tension on the leash that tells the dog..."to be prepared for action!" The exact opposite of what you want to accomplish.


 Sorry should have read:

And also if the dogs being a butt this is gong to be really hard not to do but...if you increase tension on the leash that tells the dog..."to be prepared for action!" The exact opposite of what you want to accomplish.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> And now that you have cleared up a lot of the small details, I think we can safely say forget the E collar and you already said the prong was a no go! I think we can safely assume that you can't shock fear out of a dog!


this shows how little you know about ecollars

op i would suggest putting a leash on your dog in the house and just letting her walk around with it. maybe she's had a bad experience with the leash in the past? then move outside and just play in your backyard with the leash on. go slow. imo the only way to "fix" a leash reactive dog when the reactivity is based from fear is to change the way the dog thinks about the "threat". right now any dog or sound of a dog freaks her out because she is restrained by the leash and in her mind, cant get away. she needs to realize that a dog approaching is going to do her no harm while shes on leash. however you choose to alter her train of thought is up to you but redirecting her attention imo is just a bandaid to the real problem.


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## mtmarabianz (Jan 7, 2010)

Different thought pattern here, & probably too late .....

But I never let my puppy, bitch, play with other dogs, ie, become "doggy" = where dogs were more fun than me. 

Or take the chance of her being dominated by another dog, which leads to its own problems, even later in maturity = dog aggression.

& as dogs/bitches reach sexual maturity, 18 months/2 years, I think a lot of problems can develope when they are running amuck with other canines, .... why dog parks are no-no's.

I worked with her daily, 4 times a day, constant, as at the time I wasn't working.
We walked, played tug, ball, OB, ect ....
I don't have any problems regarding other dogs, except if they wander in my yard
But she also knows the ignore command well 

I raised her as a working dog off of Leerburg rational. Now that she is 5, & even after 18 months, I could see why the things I was training, & how I trained, were so very important = elimated problems or the need to "fix" things later. what is learned 1st by a puppy, is learned the best.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I've a leash reactive dog based in fear and she's trained on ecollar and prong. Both have been great tools. She's not punished for lashing out in fear but for breaking a heel or a command. I'm not suggesting the OP to do this because I don't know her dog but to share that these tools can help some fearful dogs contrary to what some may believe. 

Having a fearful dog myself I know how tricky it can be. It required a lot of learning and patience on my end and ignoring the judgments of those who's never owned a genetically fearful dog. If you're in the LA area there's a trainer I can suggest if you're interested.


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## track1636 (Jan 27, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> You might have gotten ticked off but in the above you did clarify a lot of things so now we know it's a fearful dog. It's going to take more time.
> 
> I think creepy guys techniques could work, you could do that in the back yard or the house or an empty parking lot,
> 
> ...


Hi Chip18, thank you for your feedback. I think you are right in that she feels as though she needs to protect herself (and protect us). She is very protective, which is why I think she puts herself out in front (which does not help the situation), and then its is overwhelming when she realizes she maybe doesn't have the confidence to protect us all, which she does not have to. So I think we will just kind of start over with her. We have a huge backyard which is where I do most of her training. We also have a few parks that are not super busy that I can maybe work with her in a new area versus always being in the backyard. 

I can also say that I think she has pretty much been kind of 'unsure' or scared since we first brought her home. So I am not sure if the breeders were too hard on her because they started to train the pups before we took her home. So it something we have been dealing with from day one. But maybe just starting fresh and going through all of the socializing and loose leash walking would be the best solution at this point. Thank you again for your feedback. I just feel super frustrated and I love my dogs and consider them part of my family, so I get a bit defensive.


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## track1636 (Jan 27, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> this shows how little you know about ecollars
> 
> op i would suggest putting a leash on your dog in the house and just letting her walk around with it. maybe she's had a bad experience with the leash in the past? then move outside and just play in your backyard with the leash on. go slow. imo the only way to "fix" a leash reactive dog when the reactivity is based from fear is to change the way the dog thinks about the "threat". right now any dog or sound of a dog freaks her out because she is restrained by the leash and in her mind, cant get away. she needs to realize that a dog approaching is going to do her no harm while shes on leash. however you choose to alter her train of thought is up to you but redirecting her attention imo is just a bandaid to the real problem.


This is a great idea. Usually as soon as the leash comes out, she gets super excited (surprisingly) and then once we hit the sidewalk, she freaks out. So maybe having her wear it around the house would help her get more comfortable and calm down a bit before we rush outside. I do not know of a specific moment that occurred on the leash, she has always been a bit freaked out when walking. And she displayed her reaction to other dogs at a very early age (8 weeks, 10 weeks, etc). I need to make the leash a more enjoyable experience, not a fearful one. I have not tried this yet, so I am open to it. 

I am not a fan of prong collars and have never even considered an e collar. I would rather her become confident with the leash, then rely on some other device. So we will see how she does.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sounds like it is genetic . "And she displayed her reaction to other dogs at a very early age (8 weeks, 10 weeks, etc " 

have you considered Rescue remedy to calm her down ? What Is Rescue Remedy Pet | Bach Rescue Remedy Pet


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

In my very unprofessional opinion I wouldnt use any corrective collars without having a trainer look at him. Having a soft fearful dog is different from having a fearful dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is going to be so much finesse necessary in this counter conditioning --- break down into the smallest of expectations , reward , release from control, but not off leash , start up again . Eventually the dog will find safety and comfort , reward , on leash . Give the dog some coping skills . Produce a good dog to handler empathetic relationship . Still the environment needs to be controlled - out of the zone where a trigger can tip the dog into that zone where the handler is blocked out . Might mean finding times and areas where there is no distraction , particularly dogs . 

Is the issue with the leash one of constraint --close to handler -- and would you get the same result if the dog were on a lunge line , tracking line that is 20 feet. You did say the dog was okay off lead -- so what about a longer lead and effect control , recalls, distance control through that ?

One of the essences of herding dogs and GSD in particular is a sensitivity to the human , handler -- very aware -- so you are going to have to help the dog by being the relaxed model , as best as you can .


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Bear L said:


> I've a leash reactive dog based in fear and she's trained on ecollar and prong. Both have been great tools. She's not punished for lashing out in fear but for breaking a heel or a command. I'm not suggesting the OP to do this because I don't know her dog but to share that these tools can help some fearful dogs contrary to what some may believe.
> 
> Having a fearful dog myself I know how tricky it can be. It required a lot of learning and patience on my end and ignoring the judgments of those who's never owned a genetically fearful dog. If you're in the LA area there's a trainer I can suggest if you're interested.


This


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

track1636 said:


> I can also say that I think she has pretty much been kind of 'unsure' or scared since we first brought her home. So I am not sure if the breeders were too hard on her because they started to train the pups before we took her home. So it something we have been dealing with from day one.


`There you go yet again, more details! Most likely a different pup and what you did with early socialization might not have been a problem? But... this pup was different! 



track1636 said:


> But maybe just starting fresh and going through all of the socializing and loose leash walking would be the best solution at this point. Thank you again for your feedback. I just feel super frustrated and I love my dogs and consider them part of my family, so I get a bit defensive.


Now you're talking, patience and time and a minimum and/or an avoidance of gizmos!

Not saying "training tools" are of no value, but I am saying they are "very" easy to abuse by first time users!


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