# Sables from two blck and tan?



## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

Hello, got my GSD from official breeders.... And when they had they first and only offspring so far... This came out:
2 fair sables
3 blacks
3 black and tan or similar (because one was a little greyish where the tan should have been)

Please check my pics, since I don´t know how to upload them in this post!!:help:

Of course i´m positive about my male being the father, since I saw them when they got stuck and no other dog broke in.

Sorry about my english, I´m from Argentina!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

There is another thread going on, that read that unless you have one sable parent there is no possibility that 2 black/tans can produce a sable.. Litters can have multiple sires, so maybe she was bred by another and the litter has a couple of sires?

Cute puppies tho


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks for your reply, but no, it cannot be possible, I live in the middle of nothing, no more dogs around here.... and my house is all closed.... I read something about pattern sables? Could my bitch be one? she´s got a weird back, the black is mixed with some bi color hairs (black root with a cream color tip). I heard some sables have that characteristic, even if they look sometimes like a regular black and tan?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Can you post their pedigrees?


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

Liesje said:


> Can you post their pedigrees?


Yes!!
Manny de los Bubas
(male dog)
Annie Von der Cort
(female dog)

I uploaded the pics on the database, they were 5 o 6 months old back then, now they´re 2 years old. You may see more pics on my album!


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Could one of the black and tans actually have been a patterned sable?


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

Galathiel said:


> Could one of the black and tans actually have been a patterned sable?


Did you check out my album?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

can you post a link to the album...I can't find it....

one HAS to be a patterned sable or the litter has more than one sire...only way you got sable or black pups

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well the pedigrees you provided are WGSL's , black and red/tan -- the pictures of the sire and dam you provided are both black and tan , so by colour genetics you have no possibility of sable because that is a dominant gene meaning either one of the parents must BE sable . Be sable , not just have it somewhere in the background.

Either you are assessing the puppies incorrectly or you did have a visitor .

You can always send DNA for a colour gene check .
VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services - Coat Color

to remove all question on sire have a paternity test done on the strangely coloured pups http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine.html (which apparently has expanded its services to colour testing )

You can't identify the sire IF it is indeed a different dog than you expect , but you can rule out that your stud is not the sire , exclude him from paternity , if that is the case.

post a picture of the pups if you can.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Album link:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...my-furred-friends-picture93362-lechigada.html


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> can you post a link to the album...I can't find it....
> 
> one HAS to be a patterned sable or the litter has more than one sire...only way you got sable or black pups
> 
> Lee


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...iaalvarez2-albums17050-my-furred-friends.html
Take a good look at the mother! (the short stock one) Could she be a patterned sable?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no patterned sable -- plus her pedigree doesn't support her being sable.

you either have a different "extra" sire or have fawn coloured pups - which are not sable .

you may have a double dilute gene , two copies of blue which is possible with your pedigrees and ALL show lines as they are inbred on Canto Wienerau who produced blue. 
It is not a question of quality , but colour genetics , and recessive genes for those colours.

you're going to have to explain this to potential pet homes for these dogs , best to get the paternity settled with DNA .

they are not "rare" and worth more , nor worth less.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would DNA one of the blacks and one of the sables.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The bitch is definitely a black/red with a very pronounced bitch stripe. 

I'm not sure if this will work on a patterned sable...but I'm fairly certain if you pull some of her guard hairs, and see how many colors are in each hair, it will give you a much better idea of what she is. Sables tend to (I think 100% of them) have multiple colors on each or most strands of hair. So if I pull a hair from my male...it will go brown/black/brown on it. Black/tans I believe tend to have hairs of all one color. So...if you pull your bitch's black hair, it will be all black, and if you pull one of the lighter hairs on her back, it will be all tan/red whatever her color is.

The lighter color pups do seem sable, but I think Carmen is right...they're fawns. Just don't have a pronounced saddle yet and might not ever have one.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

parents look black and tan to me :shrug:
nice looking dogs, btw!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fawn may explain the sables but what about the solid blacks? I've never seen a solid black from two WGSL. I've seen like one or two blue and reds, but nothing else, ever.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

She had to have been covered by an additional male. It is very possible to have a litter be born that had 2 sires. Is there a sable male around? But the female would have to carry a black recessive - which is really really rare in a Euro show line dog....look more closely at the solid black pups.....is there a brown spot around their anus? If so, they are not solid black genetically. 

I agree with Carmen - get the male and the sable and black pups tested for DNA...if there is another male in the household or nearby, and he is sable then I would DNA test him as well.

Lee


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

*More pics!*

Her back is weird, ah? has black hair with cream tips on the same hair and has cream beneath the black on her sides???


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

she is a black and tan with a bitch stripe .


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

carmspack said:


> she is a black and tan with a bitch stripe .


What is a bitch stripe?


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

No other dogs of any type around, and We saw them stuck when she got pregnant and 60 days later, she delivered 9 puppies, I´m positive my dog is the father at least of some...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My2shepherds said:


> What is a bitch stripe?


Loss of pigment on the back of a black/tan dog. It's more prominent in bitches but also occurs in dogs. There's a dog a bit back in the lineage of most show lines that it has been traced to.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Loss of pigment on the back of a black/tan dog. It's more prominent in bitches but also occurs in dogs. There's a dog a bit back in the lineage of most show lines that it has been traced to.


Oh... okay thank you.


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

*One semi solid black lol*

Here´s a pic of a black with black paws, black anus but fading black coat from the litter


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

*another pup long coat sable*

This one is gone to a new house, but this was his last picture


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

nataliaalvarez2 said:


> Here´s a pic of a black with black paws, black anus but fading black coat from the litter


this one MIGHT be a dark black and tan....

still does not explain those light colored ones!

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

something isn't right

you don't get this colour from show lines


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## nataliaalvarez2 (Jul 28, 2014)

carmspack said:


> something isn't right
> 
> you don't get this colour from show lines


Carmen, you see how weird it is... Unless some dog broke in when I wasnt home (almost never and my house is all closed, besides there are no more than two no-breed dogs kilometers around) but you can tell this pups are pure GSD, and besides, I saw my male attached after covering my bitch 60 days before they were born.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

nataliaalvarez2 said:


> Carmen, you see how weird it is... Unless some dog broke in when I wasnt home (almost never and my house is all closed, besides there are no more than two no-breed dogs kilometers around) but you can tell this pups are pure GSD, and besides, I saw my male attached after covering my bitch 60 days before they were born.


Dogs aren't like people. A litter can be sired by more than 2 dogs. Meaning...the bitch has X amount of eggs. Half get fertilized by one sire, half by another. It happens.

So this doesn't mean NONE of the puppies are sired by your male, it just means that some of them look like they couldn't have been sired by your male.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Are you certain the pedigree on both parents is correct? There could have been a mix up on one or the other...especially if you say there is no chance another dog got to her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pedigree of the "parents" doesn't matter , both are black and tan . Sable is a dominant gene. Neither "parent" is sable. Black is a recessive . Black doesn't run in German show lines , but there is some discussion about a dominant black gene -- very very rare . 

DNA


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah...there's just no way. If I were considering buying one of these puppies, I would need the DNA done.


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