# feedback on true haus and weberhaus breeders and pups please



## Roark (Jan 18, 2019)

Hi GSD friends! 

I am considering getting a pup from true haus or weberhaus. Due to location, I may not be able to visit both or either in person. There aren't great working line breeders in my area  

I've talked with both Cindy and Melinda and both seem really great so it is a hard choice. 

I have experience with working line GSDs and looking to get a new family member. The dog will be an active family pet but we will do schutzhund and dock sports as well, just not competitively. I am NOT looking for a sport only dog. I want the dog to be well rounded and stable and healthy. 

I know there are threads related to these folks but I am looking for well rounded feedback. Please feel free to PM me. I just want to make sure that I have an accurate picture of what I am getting into.

Thanks very much for your help. I appreciate you taking the time!


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

I have one of each. It’s like comparing apples and elephants.

Allow me to preface this by saying I am not a GSD noob; I’ve logged in 30+ years so far, always with multiple GSDs including a few former police K9s.


In retrospect, I should have made a run for it when we got to Jim and Cindy’s and met our pup’s mom. 

My True Haus pup is four now; he’s had a lot of problems. He is out of Gina/Esko; that’s a good match, on paper. He *should* be a decent working dog. He’s not.

Gina is a non stop, nuisance barker, and the pup inherited that. It was a nightmare to fix.

The pup was always very difficult, absolutely no handler sensitivity or willingness. But, don’t mistake that for true hardness. It isn’t.

I used to take him for nice long walks early in the morning, but got tired of a 30 minute workout and wrestling match just getting a leash on him.

This renders him virtually untrainable without compulsion, despite plenty of good work in early puppyhood. 

His food drive is zip much of the time; same with toy drive.

He was extremely destructive, actually still is, given the opportunity. 

So, are you thinking that, in exchange for tolerating all of this, at least I got a good working prospect? Think again. He wanted no part of training and showed zero drive on the field. He broke my arm in two places trying to run away from our helper (one of the best helpers in the sport).

I have worked with four different trainers, IPO/K9 pros all. Pointless. Nobody has moved the needle a hair.

He doesn’t bond like a normal dog. He’s just cray. He may just as well be from a different planet.

To his credit, he is social with humans, not other dogs.

Luckily, my husband seems to have formed some kind of relationship with the guy. 

Hubby is the second adult in the household that this dog sent to the ER. The pup body slammed hubs off an embankment in the yard, causing a significant knee injury.

And the cherry on top of the parfait? His hips are terrible.

I could have returned him, but to what end? Another puppy? No thanks. 

As for Weberhaus—I am titling Malinda my Breeder-for-Life.

My first Weberhaus pup is two now and he is a complete joy. Super smart, nice drives, an elite athlete, easily trainable, happy, outgoing, willing, loving, affectionate, excellent house dog, super social, dog friendly, everything you could ever ask for. And handsome, too.

These kinds of dogs put the lie to the myth that good working dogs are unmanageable in the house. Nonsense. Good working dogs have “off” switches.

We have not done his hips/elbows yet. But, he is such a gazelle/mountain goat hybrid, this does not keep me up at night.

On Saturday, we’re picking up our second Weberhaus pup. She is a full sister to our beloved Raff. She was returned to Malinda for stupid reasons and we leapt at the chance to get her.

Stay tuned for the inevitable adventures of Weberhaus pup 3, 4, et al.

There is no comparison. Malinda breeds for the specific purpose of preserving old, precious foundation lines from what is now the Czech Republic (and East Germany; lots of border shifting). You could search the entire planet for another breeder who is truthfully breeding 100% Czech, top and bottom.

The breeder support is extraordinary. Malinda is always there for you. She knows her dogs. She trains, she loves to train. Good trainers are the best breeders. Malinda titles. She trains K9s.

Weberhaus dogs are outstanding. I would not hesitate to recommend this kennel to anyone. And I have, many times.

Weberhaus has a Facebook presence, there are a lot of people very, very happy with their dogs.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

raff said:


> I have one of each. It’s like comparing apples and elephants.
> 
> Allow me to preface this by saying I am not a GSD noob; I’ve logged in 30+ years so far, always with multiple GSDs including a few former police K9s.
> 
> ...


Interesting...never heard anything negative about about true haus...But I didn't dig in alot since I knew who I was going with early on in my search. 

Have head excellent things about Malinda. OP, looks like you got a great answer. Good luck. Another breeder to consider is Wildhaus.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

raff said:


> There is no comparison. Malinda breeds for the specific purpose of preserving old, precious foundation lines from what is now the Czech Republic (and East Germany; lots of border shifting). You could search the entire planet for another breeder who is truthfully breeding 100% Czech, top and bottom.



If your dog is from the R litter then its a mix not all Czech. Malinda does have some breedings that are 100% this or that. She does mix a lot of the lines as well.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Seer said:


> If your dog is from the R litter then its a mix not all Czech. Malinda does have some breedings that are 100% this or that. She does mix a lot of the lines as well.


He’s rr. Coco (Loki)/Tom. I am pretty clear on my dog’s lineage.

Have you looked at her website? Are you a breeder? 

Malinda is not breeding ‘this or that’. If you read my post carefully, I said Malinda breeds Czech/DDR. If you familiarize yourself with history, it will make more sense to you.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

My Weberhaus pup is almost 18 months now. She is my second IPO dog, sixth GSD. 

She is by far the most stable dog I have had to date. 

SUPER drives for work, intense toy drive and food drive is almost as intense. Naturally engaging and like I said, super stable.

She is a tough girl with tones of sass and attitude but happy to work with me. 

I could not be happier with my girl. Malinda is always engaging, knows her lines, helps with training and uber supportive. 

Wildhaus is another great choice. A friend is bringing a pup home from Chris this summer.

I know three true haus dogs, all different ages and litters and I am not a fan.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

raff said:


> I have one of each. It’s like comparing apples and elephants.
> 
> Allow me to preface this by saying I am not a GSD noob; I’ve logged in 30+ years so far, always with multiple GSDs including a few former police K9s.
> 
> ...


Have you been in contact with other littermates owners? Was the whole litter like this? I wonder sometimes about what looks great on paper and what the dog ends up as. I will still look at a pedigree with total reliability, but do understand the parents influence is there and key to certain traits.


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## Roark (Jan 18, 2019)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> My Weberhaus pup is almost 18 months now. She is my second IPO dog, sixth GSD.
> 
> She is by far the most stable dog I have had to date.
> 
> ...


Hi, Thanks, this is very helpful. what did you not like about the true haus dogs? Feel free to PM me if you prefer. Thanks again


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

raff said:


> He’s rr. Coco (Loki)/Tom. I am pretty clear on my dog’s lineage.
> 
> Have you looked at her website? Are you a breeder?
> 
> Malinda is not breeding ‘this or that’. If you read my post carefully, I said Malinda breeds Czech/DDR. If you familiarize yourself with history, it will make more sense to you.



Im familiar with Tom, he is not 100% Czech lined, mixed working line. Mainly built on top of the DDR lines with West and Czech. Not pure Czech. Its a pedigree thing if you familiarize yourself with the pedigrees its easy to see.what the dog is. I just pointed it out as you posted twice your pup is 100% Czech, its just not. Coco has more Czech up front but also built on a DDR Chassis with west lines thru Tom z Pohranicni Straze. Nice working line breeding just not a pure Czech breeding.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

onyx'girl said:


> Have you been in contact with other littermates owners? Was the whole litter like this? I wonder sometimes about what looks great on paper and what the dog ends up as. I will still look at a pedigree with total reliability, but do understand the parents influence is there and key to certain traits.


No. I don’t have contact info for the other puppy buyers.

This is definitely not the first time I have been down this road. As you say; a dog can look great on paper and be a nightmare in real life.

I have found the same to be true in dating.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Have you been in contact with other littermates owners? Was the whole litter like this? I wonder sometimes about what looks great on paper and what the dog ends up as. I will still look at a pedigree with total reliability, but do understand the parents influence is there and key to certain traits.


Paper breeders have probably the least effective breeding system ever devised. Everyone wants a top champion bred to there top in their mind bitch. Almost never does the mating turn out or stamp traits into the progeny. This system may be a sizable factor in the reduction of actual working type traits in the current mass population. I'm always weary of breeders who have been breeding for many many years and still breeding mostly everyone else dogs in their "program".

Papers are one small piece to the possible puzzle and thats about it. What the dogs involved have produced are much stronger and offer a more realistic chance of getting someone what they are needing.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

@Seer. While I agree that papers are not the whole story they are still nice to have. And the registration is part of the dog's record and identity. Any traction on getting Ranger's registration resolved? Asking for a friend. 

I too am following posts regarding breeder feedback with interest as I am shopping for another addition to my home. Although I like the dog I have and he is everything he is supposed to be I can't recommend his breeder or return to him comfortably due to outstanding issues from the sale transaction two years on. Principles ya know.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I've heard mixed reviews on Truehaus but havent actually talked to them so I can't say anything on that in all honesty. 

As far as Weberhaus goes, my guy is great and I've met several other Weberhaus dogs who have all been super stable and want to work. My guy is out of Malinda's T-litter. He's got a nice alphabet soup attached to him and we're still going. He's one of the best dogs I've ever known. He's an excellent travel buddy, learns and retains quickly and wants nothing more than to be with me and do anything I ask of him. He's great with kids, other animals, not reactive at all. He is ready to go whenever I am, gives his all, and settles beautifully. I would not hesitate to go back to Malinda for another pup. The trip is well worth it. She is supportive and knows her dogs.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

I have a 15 week old Weberhaus pup from Malinda's H3 litter and could not be happier with him! I approached Malinda looking for a PSA prospect and told her what I was looking for and did she deliver! Bash is sharp as a whip with toy and prey drive for days! He catches on to new OB skills within minutes and responds extremely well to free shaping, which makes him think and figure stuff out. At 15 weeks he already has a really nice focus heel position down, understands several OB commands and we're already working on retrieve. 

At club, he's fantastic! He has a nice firm and full grip, and the other day the TD was doing rag work with him and was dragging Bash over people and cans and bite suits and the little monster would not let go. He also was jumping and climbing over obstacles to get to the rag, all with tons of people and barking dogs around. He's going to be an awesome working dog and I'm just praying I'm a decent enough handler for him.

Haven't seen his off switch yet because, well, he's a puppy. Lol! But I'm not concerned, I'm sure it's there and will come with age. He can be very social and affectionate and is always looking for something to bite or do, but when it's time to train he switches into work and focus mode, waiting for me to lead.

He has hardness (which I wanted) but it's not aggressive, and I know that as long as I'm fair with him he will respond well. He's a thinker and likes to figure things out, very intelligent and responsive to his handler. I'm really excited about his future! 

Also, a bit less important, he's insanely handsome. Going to be a beautiful dog.

Would recommend Malinda 200%!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Seer said:


> Paper breeders have probably the least effective breeding system ever devised. Everyone wants a top champion bred to there top in their mind bitch. Almost never does the mating turn out or stamp traits into the progeny. This system may be a sizable factor in the reduction of actual working type traits in the current mass population. I'm always weary of breeders who have been breeding for many many years and still breeding mostly everyone else dogs in their "program".
> 
> Papers are one small piece to the possible puzzle and thats about it. What the dogs involved have produced are much stronger and offer a more realistic chance of getting someone what they are needing.


My comment about pedigree, is that if you have knowledge of the past dogs then you know which dogs behind the pedigree can show certain traits. Breeding to the 'top champion' is not something breeders I support do. They are much more knowledgeable about dogs 3-4 generations back and know who to stay away from and which dog may complement their lines when matching up pedigrees. I don't trust many breeders, only a handful are pretty informed anymore. I agree that the pedigree is just a part of breeding, that is why it should be considered an art.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

onyx'girl said:


> My comment about pedigree, is that if you have knowledge of the past dogs then you know which dogs behind the pedigree can show certain traits. Breeding to the 'top champion' is not something breeders I support do. They are much more knowledgeable about dogs 3-4 generations back and know who to stay away from and which dog may complement their lines when matching up pedigrees. I don't trust many breeders, only a handful are pretty informed anymore. I agree that the pedigree is just a part of breeding, that is why it should be considered an art.


I’m not even sure what a ‘top champion’ even is, unless you’re talking about AKC show lines. Seer has a way to go yet.

The best breeders know their lines inside out and upside down. You will recognize it by the predictability. 

You can also anticipate a certain uniformity in well thought out breeding programs.

Genetics is never 100% precise, of course. But, an excellent breeding program will show a high degree of predictability.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

KZoppa said:


> I've heard mixed reviews on Truehaus but havent actually talked to them so I can't say anything on that in all honesty.
> 
> As far as Weberhaus goes, my guy is great and I've met several other Weberhaus dogs who have all been super stable and want to work. My guy is out of Malinda's T-litter. He's got a nice alphabet soup attached to him and we're still going. He's one of the best dogs I've ever known. He's an excellent travel buddy, learns and retains quickly and wants nothing more than to be with me and do anything I ask of him. He's great with kids, other animals, not reactive at all. He is ready to go whenever I am, gives his all, and settles beautifully. I would not hesitate to go back to Malinda for another pup. The trip is well worth it. She is supportive and knows her dogs.


Aaaannnddd, hence, the hubs is on the road right now, making the 800 mile trip to Malinda’s. Our Weberhaus pup’s sister suddenly became available and we did not hesitate.

If she is half as wonderful as her brother, I’ll be pretty danged happy.

I can’t wait for her to get here!


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

In the dog world the most sought after breedings are from those at the highest levels of sport. They are often the most expensive and certainly the most prestigious.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

raff said:


> I’m not even sure what a ‘top champion’ even is, unless you’re talking about AKC show lines. Seer has a way to go yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is one of the reasons I chose Malinda to get a pup from. She knows her lines inside and out and spent a ton of time talking to me about her dogs, what they produce, why she was doing certain breedings and she was very up front about which breedings she recommended for what I was looking for.

There are few breeders I have spoken to who know as much about their lines as she does, and the consistency of her program is impressive. 

She also works her dogs and titles them herself, and titles her females beyond an IPO1. That really impressed me. She doesn't just get an IPO1 on her females and then stop working them. She works her dogs, knows her dogs and puts a lot into her program. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Seer said:


> In the dog world* the most sought after breedings are from those at the highest levels of sport*. They are often the most expensive and certainly the most prestigious.


Every sport has a champion. Someone has to win. :wink2:

I get ya, Seer.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

kimbale said:


> This is one of the reasons I chose Malinda to get a pup from. She knows her lines inside and out and spent a ton of time talking to me about her dogs, what they produce, why she was doing certain breedings and she was very up front about which breedings she recommended for what I was looking for.
> 
> There are few breeders I have spoken to who know as much about their lines as she does, and the consistency of her program is impressive.
> 
> ...


You are exactly right.

I, too, appreciate the number of HOT dogs that Malinda has. Working your own dog is truly the *only* way to get an in depth understanding of the dog’s temperament and working abilities.

Of course, I will tack on the standard disclaimer that IPO, as it’s done today is far from the perfect test of the German Shepherd Dog. But, it’s what we’ve got. And, it’s certainly better than nothing.

One of the best things about Malinda is that she genuinely loves working her dogs. It’s not just a chore. It’s her jam. That makes for a very hands on breeder. Just what you want.

Yes, I also agree with you about the girls. Slapping a perfunctory I on them, just to start breeding is unsound practice. Breeders should be stretching them every bit as much as their boys. 

Of course, Mother Nature can have other plans and fool with cycles; disrupting the best laid training/titling plans. That’s when breeder expertise really matters and you have to decide whether to trust the breeder’s decision go ahead and breed her girl with a I or II is a sound one.

I am happy enough with my Weberhaus pooch to be getting another one. Hubs is on the road, as we speak, bringing her home from Malinda’s. An 800 mile drive each way—worth it.

Here is our newest Weberhaus addition, or addiction; either way. Welcome, Jada!


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Seer said:


> In the dog world the most sought after breedings are from those at the highest levels of sport. They are often the most expensive and certainly the most prestigious.


Yeah, no.

If you’re going to insist on a ‘champion’, you probably want to define your term. champion of what? High scorer in your local club trial? Regionals? The Sieger Show? BSP? Nationals? I am leaving out some other major events because I am sure you get the idea.

Working line dogs are *not* the most expensive. JQP wants show lines. They want GSDs who look like what they are accustomed to. They don’t want working drives; they want pretty.

Show lines are such big business that the protection phase has been watered down in some major events to make them look better than they are. I have seen blatant examples of this at the Sieger show. It was sickening.

The money and prestige are in the show lines. Americans who don’t know better get chumped out all of the time by the Germans. Clueless Americans send untold thousands overseas for dogs. In return, they receive rejects. The Europeans ship them their substandard dogs.

Nobody told them that the only way to get good dogs out of foreign countries is via a broker you in whom you know you can place absolute trust. Or, someone did tell them and they chose not to listen.

This is the kind of thing that happens to people who think they know a lot more than they do.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Just for fun, here is my Weberhaus pup’s pedigree; and, by extrapolation, Tom’s.

Perhaps Seer can help me by pointing to the W German dogs. Of course, if we want to get technica , *all* GSDs are W German, if we track back far enough. We can go all the way back to Horand.

As we all of a certain age may recall, East Germany only existed from 1949-1990 and the relationships among Czech and E German border agents are of significance.

Thoughts on this pedigree?

Also something of great interest to me is Tom’s working title, the SVV1. It’s a police dog title; he was a working K9 in the Czech Republic. There is precious little information about this title. According to Malinda, it goes on for several days and is extremely rigorous. I have not had much success finding any details about the tests.

So, is anyone familiar with the Czech SVVV? 

I don’t know how many of you are aware, but Tom is now lost to us. He died a few months ago now. I believe bloat stole him. It was a real gut punch. So sad, so awful, such a loss. I think about him all the time. 

Fortunately, Malinda has frozen semen.

I am so grateful to have my Tom kid. And Tom kid number two on her way here as we speak.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

raff said:


> Aaaannnddd, hence, the hubs is on the road right now, making the 800 mile trip to Malinda’s. Our Weberhaus pup’s sister suddenly became available and we did not hesitate.
> 
> If she is half as wonderful as her brother, I’ll be pretty danged happy.
> 
> I can’t wait for her to get here!


If you are prepared to melt, here is Jada.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Jada looks so much like my BF's retired girl, Bria. She is 8 years old and such a wonderful girl. She was a top producer at the kennel I got Valor from (pedigree in my siggi). Sorry to hijack, they just look so alike.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2035001-bria-z-bytcianskej-doliny


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Raff really not understanding anything you wrote on the other comment (champion) so moving on from that. When reading a pedigree just look for the different designation or registry. Its easier if you do this off paper. So the pdb if its working that day might be wiser. To be clear once again I don’t care what the breeding was, its not my flavor. Everyone gets mad when they buy one thing and its not what it was sold as. Don’t shoot the messenger. You kept posting 100% and in the Czech line finding a dog not mixed with other lines is quite rare so I was intrigued, thats all. 

So North-Pannon brings in west blood in the forth generation. Dunga zo is blank so no way to know what blood comes in here. Not uncommon to see some blanks in Czech or Slovakian registry so no big deal. Era von Bunsenkocher in the fourth generation is also West decent. Off a quick glance theres more to west I’m sure but quickly there you go. All these means nothing except with regards to being a 100% Czech lined dog. Theres almost none of those left people love mixing the lines up so very common nowadays.

Perhaps some of the Czech or Slovakia aficionados can jump in and explain but i don’t think the savv1 titles had anything to do with police work. Its not a Czech title its Solvakia title.

Bloat without any doubt in my mind has genetic component. While I would not be overly concerned I would absolutely tack the stomachs of dogs coming from a dog who died of bloat. 

Jada does not look happy over the trip, but I’m sure she we ease into her new permeant home, Nice looking pup.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Seer said:


> Bloat without any doubt in my mind has genetic component. While I would not be overly concerned I would absolutely tack the stomachs of dogs coming from a dog who died of bloat.


Yes. My male is part of the study for bloat. There is a strong genetic component.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Jax: While anecdotal a decade ago it did seem to be so. I started avoiding any dog who bloated or produced a bloat dog just as precaution. So far its been a good luck move. Can you share who is doing the study either public or pm'd.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Seer said:


> Jax: While anecdotal a decade ago it did seem to be so. I started avoiding any dog who bloated or produced a bloat dog just as precaution. So far its been a good luck move. Can you share who is doing the study either public or pm'd.


Can you send me your email address? There is a Word doc in the last update we got.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Seer said:


> Raff really not understanding anything you wrote on the other comment (champion) so moving on from that. When reading a pedigree just look for the different designation or registry. Its easier if you do this off paper. So the pdb if its working that day might be wiser. To be clear once again I don’t care what the breeding was, its not my flavor. Everyone gets mad when they buy one thing and its not what it was sold as. Don’t shoot the messenger. You kept posting 100% and in the Czech line finding a dog not mixed with other lines is quite rare so I was intrigued, thats all.
> 
> So North-Pannon brings in west blood in the forth generation. Dunga zo is blank so no way to know what blood comes in here. Not uncommon to see some blanks in Czech or Slovakian registry so no big deal. Era von Bunsenkocher in the fourth generation is also West decent. Off a quick glance theres more to west I’m sure but quickly there you go. All these means nothing except with regards to being a 100% Czech lined dog. Theres almost none of those left people love mixing the lines up so very common nowadays.
> 
> ...


Seer,

The Czech Republic and Slovenia, were one country, known as Czechoslovakia, until 1993.

The rest of your post does not make sense either. It appears you have an agenda of some sort and I, frankly, don’t have time for nonsense.

Where are the links to your bloat studies? Pretty much *every* trait has some genetic component. Genetics is a very complex science. To say that because dog bloated, his offspring will bloat is absurd and ill informed. Dogs can bloat for a plethora of reasons.

Also, don’t confuse bloat with torsion. They are not synonymous.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

CometDog said:


> Jada looks so much like my BF's retired girl, Bria. She is 8 years old and such a wonderful girl. She was a top producer at the kennel I got Valor from (pedigree in my siggi). Sorry to hijack, they just look so alike.
> Bria Z Bytcianskej Doliny


She is lovely! Their expressions are quite similar. They can melt you.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Can you send me your email address? There is a Word doc in the last update we got.


Sent thanks a bunch.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

raff said:


> Seer,
> 
> The Czech Republic and Slovenia, were one country, known as Czechoslovakia, until 1993.
> 
> ...


Oh boy... Your glass is pretty full. Again don't shoot the messenger. Perhaps others can help explain your pedigree to you additionally why its a good idea to tack. 

A general statistic: 9-10 people surveyed, who get corrected publicly, no longer have time for nonsense.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Seer said:


> Jax: While anecdotal a decade ago it did seem to be so. I started avoiding any dog who bloated or produced a bloat dog just as precaution. So far its been a good luck move. Can you share who is doing the study either public or pm'd.


 @*Seer*, not sure if it's the same study Jax08 knows about, but here's the Tufts/Harvard/MIT team involved in a genetic investigation of bloat:
https://now.tufts.edu/articles/genetics-bloat


Work identifying the genetic component actually started in the 1990s (see part 4 of the Purdue study):
https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/bloat-purdue-study.html 

Seer, it's not just your perception -- researchers noticed what you did about it running in families. Research published in the the early 2000s demonstrated that having a first-degree relative that had bloated was a significant risk factor in predicting bloat:
AKC Canine Health Foundation

@*raff*, I recommend you do more reading on the state of bloat research -- it's still correlative (not causative), but the statistical correlations for heredity are actually one of the strongest predictors yet found in the research. You may think it's "absurd," but I think your argument seems it's with the bloat researchers at Purdue and Tufts who've been working on figuring bloat out for 20 years. If you do a search on bloat causes in the forum, I've linked to sources summarizing the research in another thread -- including what they found about ever-present myths about activity before/after eating, elevated bowls, etc. The results surprise many people. 

ETA: @*raff*, here's the post where I have the summary of the research I'm aware of. When you ask for research on this forum, you may very likely get it... 
https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/742697-bowl-height-bloat.html#post9027697


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. It's not the same study. This study is out of Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in WA. There are other threads on the board about it. I don't want to hijack this thread on the OP>


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Generally a dog that bloats and dies did have a torsion. A merely bloated stomach does not kill a dog unless its bloating is due to obstruction-it swallowed gorilla glue for example. What kills the pet is not the bloating but when the stomach twists it effects blood supply to the stomach, frequently blood vessels to the stomach and spleen tear also. The stomach becomes necrotic releasing toxins into the blood stream. I plan on playing it safe and will pexi my young male as he is big and deep chested. It can be done via laparoscope so minimally invasive. All the other males were done since going for dual purpose police-too much money tied up in training so why risk it. I would encourage everybody to consider it.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Well Roark, did you get your answers? Don't know Weberhaus and have only met one of TrueHaus' pups at an ipo training, it appeared to lack confidence and courage to me. Cindy is nice enough on the phone. I don't know if she tests for DM now, didn't believe in it a few years ago when we spoke. Either of those breeders can probably get you close to what you want if you're honest about your intentions with the dog. Not every pup from w/l litters is going to be a high drive sport or working dog.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

rotdocpa1 said:


> Generally a dog that bloats and dies did have a torsion. A merely bloated stomach does not kill a dog unless its bloating is due to obstruction-it swallowed gorilla glue for example. What kills the pet is not the bloating but when the stomach twists it effects blood supply to the stomach, frequently blood vessels to the stomach and spleen tear also. The stomach becomes necrotic releasing toxins into the blood stream. I plan on playing it safe and will pexi my young male as he is big and deep chested. It can be done via laparoscope so minimally invasive. All the other males were done since going for dual purpose police-too much money tied up in training so why risk it. I would encourage everybody to consider it.


For $400 pexy seems like a wicked safe bet. Especially compounded with the research from the links Magwart and data that Jax provided its a no brainer for those with bloat dogs in the rear. Besides the agony of watching it happen with that much work put into a working dog and to lose it early is tragic on its own.

To the OP sorry things got out of topic. If you boiled down to those two breeders I think enough posted to work with. I send Malinda clients when people ask for dogs more experienced in sport stuff. So while I'm not hot on the breeding discussed. I will still send clients her way when I don't have something at that moment. So of the two, chalk another for Weber.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

This thread has gotten waaaay off topic but to give a data point to the original question...

I have a pup from Weberhaus, the same litter as Kim's Bash. I can echo what other's have said. Malinda is fantastic to work with. From the first conversation you can tell she loves her dogs, loves German Shepherds, and is breeding with a specific purpose in mind. She also speaks her mind about any dog topic. You will find out very quickly what she doesn't breed for as well as what can't really be bred for. I'll add that she answers her phone seemingly at all hours and there never are too many questions. Several times our conversations lasted way longer than I planned as we got into discussing some details of the litter, what behaviors she was seeing, breeding in general, Schutzhund/IGP, etc.

As for the puppy he is only 15 weeks but I am ecstatic. After discussing my plans Malinda was looking for a medium drive dog with strong nerves, good with other dogs, not aggressive to strangers, and suitable for hiking off leash in "the bush"--foothills and mountains of Colorado. I want to try Schutzhund or something like Mondioring but I'll be doing it for the experience and to learn to be a better handler/trainer not to win championships. It is way too early to tell exactly how he will do on all those axes but so far so good. At his first vet visit at 12 weeks my vet told me multiple times he was the most confident GSD puppy she had ever worked with. Everything was new (the room, the people, the smells, getting shots, getting examined, getting his nails trimmed, getting weighed and measured) and he responded to each new thing with a Oh-This-Is-New-OK-How-Does-This-Work-Lets-Do-This-Then attitude. The vet said that most GSD puppies are anxious and he was the opposite.

I can't speak to pedigrees with any authority nor have I researched bloat studies. But in terms of Malinda and my puppy, two thumbs up without hesitation.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

raff said:


> Just for fun, here is my Weberhaus pup’s pedigree; and, by extrapolation, Tom’s.
> 
> Perhaps Seer can help me by pointing to the W German dogs. Of course, if we want to get technica , *all* GSDs are W German, if we track back far enough. We can go all the way back to Horand.


Not Seer, but I can help - You literally need to go only one more generation beyond what the paper pedigree shows to see the West German and DDR dogs show up, in not only the sire but the dam as well. Search the dogs on Pedigree Database if you'd like to see for yourself.

To the topic of the original conversation, I haven't heard enough about True Haus to really give any advice. I've heard tons of good things about Weberhaus, though, so between the two, I'd vote Weberhaus ... regardless of "Pure Czech/DDR" or not.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

seer said:


> oh boy... Your glass is pretty full. Again don't shoot the messenger. Perhaps others can help explain your pedigree to you additionally why its a good idea to tack.
> 
> A general statistic: 9-10 people surveyed, who get corrected publicly, no longer have time for nonsense.


???


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Roark said:


> Hi GSD friends!
> 
> I am considering getting a pup from true haus or weberhaus. Due to location, I may not be able to visit both or either in person. There aren't great working line breeders in my area
> 
> ...


Hey, OP! Apologies for the tangent this post has taken. Feel free to PM me about Weberhaus any time. I would absolutely recommend Malinda and her dogs and am happy to chat if you have questions.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Colorado said:


> This thread has gotten waaaay off topic but to give a data point to the original question...
> 
> I have a pup from Weberhaus, the same litter as Kim's Bash. I can echo what other's have said. Malinda is fantastic to work with. From the first conversation you can tell she loves her dogs, loves German Shepherds, and is breeding with a specific purpose in mind. She also speaks her mind about any dog topic. You will find out very quickly what she doesn't breed for as well as what can't really be bred for. I'll add that she answers her phone seemingly at all hours and there never are too many questions. Several times our conversations lasted way longer than I planned as we got into discussing some details of the litter, what behaviors she was seeing, breeding in general, Schutzhund/IGP, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes, that’s one of the nicest things. When you realize you have such an excellent ambassador for our beloved breed.

Vets and their staff tend to be war weary with poorly bred GSDs, unfortunately. It’s quite the commentary that seeing a GSD pup brimming with good health and full of happy curiosity about everything is so worthy of comment.

It has happened to me a number of times over the years with pups from a few very select breedings.

Malinda certainly is remarkably consistent in what she produces. Again, that consistency really is a green flag. It signals that the breeder has well defined goals.

It’s a question every puppy buyer should ask—what are your goals in doing this breeding? The answer should be detailed and specific.

I feel ya on the questions! I am pretty sure Malinda has had herself cloned.


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

At a glance there is a seemingly large consensus into which breeder is the most experienced of the two from which you've proposed. 

Malinda @weberhaus has one more *STRONG* recommendation from me. 

I have my first GSD from Malinda and not only is this puppy the most beautiful dog but Malinda's description of the puppy and her recommendation to me based upon my needs / circumstances are given with pinpoint accuracy and precision. She knows her breeding and she knows her pups.

Yesterday I was reading a thread that was posted in which the OP was forced to make the dreaded decision whether to euthanize an otherwise well behaved dog that was aggressive towards other dogs.

Within this forum you will _rarely_ read comments from members who believe that the option of euthanasia be the best option. 
They will scope out every detail of the post to determine if a correction from the handler or perhaps in the hands of a more experienced handler would benefit the pup. 

In this case it was ultimately determined that the underlying cause of aggression had little to do with environment, lack of training, or neglect but with genetics. 

The purpose of this digression directs you to the fact that genetics is paramount in selection. Red flags should be thoroughly investigated or crossed off the list completely.


My recommendation for Malinda echo's all the positive comments in this thread. 
The reason I give a *STRONG* recommendation is because anytime I speak to Malinda she shares the same joy, excitement, and concern for my puppy's development as I do...every time. 
I was honestly astonished to hear the enthusiasm in her voice to answer my questions that must have been asked a million times. 

It was at that moment that I knew she was the breeder I would choose or suggest over and over again without the slightest hesitation.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think both breeders have excellent genetic stock and have produced some nice dogs. 
Bloat to me is like HD in that both have genetic and environmental causations. It is very complex, but people have to be careful about labeling a bloated dog as it’s origin being genetic when it was caused by actions of owners ( food, water, strenuous activity) .


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I think both breeders have excellent genetic stock and have produced some nice dogs.
> Bloat to me is like HD in that both have genetic and environmental causations. It is very complex, but people have to be careful about labeling a bloated dog as it’s origin being genetic when it was caused by actions of owners ( food, water, strenuous activity) .


I don't know if you have a chance to read through the links provided and others. The last couple days looking through where the science looks to be going, it looks to be strongly headed genetic. 

This alone is pretty good reason to avoid dogs that have bloated. First degree relatives of dogs that have bloated are 63% more likely to bloat themselves, per Tufts in the link provided earlier.

Fred Hutchinson Canine Bloat Study finding significant risk factors leaning genetic. There study still ongoing is modeled with the idea that gut bacteria population combined with an outside trigger. They are working on identifying allies that show a genetic predisposition to bloat.

And the end of the day you can work with a lot of things fair hips, allergies and sensitive stomachs but bloat claims a significant number of dogs in a blink of eye, you can't do anything with that.

It looks some of the studies are gaining some traction and getting closer to helping those that are risk.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Opsoclonus said:


> At a glance there is a seemingly large consensus into which breeder is the most experienced of the two from which you've proposed.


It awesome your supporting your breeder and are super pleased. All good stuff. But this statement above appears to be silly. It seems to me True Haus has been around for much longer then Malindas program. 

A decade ago I heard a lot of good things about their program with many super happy actually working dogs out there. I have not followed them or their dogs in quite a while but it seems to me they have been around much longer then 99% of all other programs.

If you can put with dog people that long and still be pushing out good dogs your pretty much one of the most experienced out there.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

cliffson1 said:


> I think both breeders have excellent genetic stock and have produced some nice dogs.
> Bloat to me is like HD in that both have genetic and environmental causations. It is very complex, but people have to be careful about labeling a bloated dog as it’s origin being genetic when it was caused by actions of owners ( food, water, strenuous activity) .


This is exactly right.

This is why so many veterinarians tell GSD owners to keep their dogs from running around for at least two hours before and two hours after a meal. Four would be better, but, just not realistic for most people.

Genetics sets the parameters. Environment determines what happens within those limits.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

Seer said:


> It awesome your supporting your breeder and are super pleased. All good stuff.


I figured it went without saying but at least with respect to my comments I can only give feedback with something I have experience with. My comments were about Weberhaus. I don't have any experience with True Haus so my lack of comments shouldn't be taken as a negative.



raff said:


> This is why so many veterinarians tell GSD owners to keep their dogs from running around for at least two hours before and two hours after a meal. Four would be better, but, just not realistic for most people.


Two isn't realistic either, really. I mean assuming two meals a day that would rougly mean no running around from 6 am to 10 am and then from 3 pm to 7 pm. If you are training for a sport (and assuming you work) you wouldn't be able to train from 6 am to 7 pm. That's not going to work. Or am I missing something?


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

raff said:


> This is exactly right.
> 
> This is why so many veterinarians tell GSD owners to keep their dogs from running around for at least two hours before and two hours after a meal. Four would be better, but, just not realistic for most people.
> 
> Genetics sets the parameters. Environment determines what happens within those limits.


Sorry guys but the science is not with your statements. We have been giving dogs food, water, strenuous activity since they have been domesticated. That is not real arguable. The Purdue study stated epidemic numbers. If thats true and it appears to be then while adjusting food water activity can help reduce risk it just putting lipstick on the pig.

If we don't want HD dogs bred as a community then it only makes sense we should not be breeding the bloat dogs either.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Colorado said:


> I figured it went without saying but at least with respect to my comments I can only give feedback with something I have experience with. My comments were about Weberhaus. I don't have any experience with True Haus so my lack of comments shouldn't be taken as a negative.


No of course all is good. I don't know if that was mis worded sentence by that poster but just wanted to clarify I have seen True Haus around for a super long time, so experience wise it would be in their favor.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Seer said:


> No of course all is good. I don't know if that was mis worded sentence by that poster but just wanted to clarify I have seen True Haus around for a super long time, so experience wise it would be in their favor.


Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, Weberhaus has been around for a long time, as well. Lots of experience there, lots of history of breeding highly successful sport and working dogs. Malinda is widely regarded as a top-tier working line breeder with a ton of experience and success under her belt.

Not saying this to discount True Haus, just saying both kennels have been around for a while and you're not losing out on experience by going with Weberhaus. Malinda is one of the most experienced breeders I have ever spoken with. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

Seer said:


> It awesome your supporting your breeder and are super pleased. All good stuff. But this statement above appears to be silly. It seems to me True Haus has been around for much longer then Malindas program.


Sure, I will admit that I know very little about True Haus and perhaps they have been around longer. 

They may have more experience and it is not my intention to take anything away from them as a breeder or some of the great dogs they've produced in the past. 

My intention is to provide my experience and a reason for why I give my full support.
I did this in order to answer the question of the OP and provide additional information that I have _yet_ to read in all of my extensive research I had done prior to selecting Weberhaus.

So based on this thread alone and the experience of the individuals who have contributed: the breeder with the most *expertise* at this moment is Weberhaus.

Thanks for helping me to clarify that word.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

raff said:


> This is exactly right.
> 
> This is why so many veterinarians tell GSD owners to keep their dogs from running around for at least two hours before and two hours after a meal. Four would be better, but, just not realistic for most people.
> 
> Genetics sets the parameters. Environment determines what happens within those limits.


Thank You!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Opsoclonus said:


> Sure, I will admit that I know very little about True Haus and perhaps they have been around longer.
> 
> They may have more experience and it is not my intention to take anything away from them as a breeder or some of the great dogs they've produced in the past.
> 
> ...


Really? I have been around both for a long time AND know the genetics of both kennels as I have bred the lines from both kennels. They both are excellent in my opinion.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Im glad I came across this thread Wowza True Haus. I have not run threw their website in a while. 







What a great acquire!


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> My Weberhaus pup is almost 18 months now. She is my second IPO dog, sixth GSD.
> 
> She is by far the most stable dog I have had to date.
> 
> ...


My experience is based on only 3 dogs... I have also heard good and bad but I am sure you can find that with any kennel.

They have lines I like but ultimately for myself decided on Malinda based on word of mouth references.


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

cliffson1 said:


> Really? I have been around both for a long time AND know the genetics of both kennels as I have bred the lines from both kennels. They both are excellent in my opinion.


Yes, really. 

Let us not quarrel over superior genetics when it is of no value to this debate.

When comparing two elite programs I presume that genetics (amongst other factors) would be of an established quality in both the breeders. 
As you have pointed out this is indeed a fact. 

Having bred both lines yourself, you must understand that there is a complexity into calling oneself a breeder that goes beyond genetics. 

This is where I believe her expertise is evident ; Malinda expertly is able to select the right dog for you. 

This is evident by the majority of the ~55 posts here exclaiming just that very fact and 0 to the contrary. To this fact I am sure we must agree.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Someone roll the twilight theme song.... The club is going argue that cliffson is quarreling over genetics.... Good Grief he stated he found the genetics for for both kennels excellent. Not a real quarreling type of narrative. 

Granted he is a cheater, forgetting more about which lines would most likely produce excellent working traits then any pet or weekend warrior would learn in a life time. 

So technically if he got a crap dog, I would put that on him, lol.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Well this is heavily one sided. I'm never on here anymore and this pops up. 

untitled-1_1_orig by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## Bitten (Apr 24, 2019)

Tom died from cancer, not bloat.

I have a Weberhaus dog, and often recommend Malinda. However I wouldn't buy another dog from her. My dog is an amazing pet, social with strangers, stable in all situations and a fantastic travel buddy! 

Average at best club level sport dog, probably would have been great for a complete newbie. Not enough energy or drive for me, and too much handler sensitivity. Imo we're mismatched and I think it's obvious when we're on the field. I love her but I can't wait to get another dog for IGP.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Well this is heavily one sided. I'm never on here anymore and this pops up.
> 
> untitled-1_1_orig by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


Smoking hot pedigree and breeding for me.. Not my flavor. I'll defer to more experienced with that line. But I would jump on that breeding if I was so inclined. Super.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Seer said:


> Smoking hot pedigree and breeding for me.. Not my flavor. I'll defer to more experienced with that line. But I would jump on that breeding if I was so inclined. Super.



She's my one in a million. My heart dog for sure! One of the most balanced dogs I have ever met. She has the strongest nerves I've seen.Is a work horse with a fantastic off switch, social with people and dogs, and truly wants to please. I've had LE agencies try to buy her and families with small kids want her. She's the total package for me. She's been a steller producer as well. Two different males yet produced herself both litters.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I really don't have any direct experience with these breeders other than speaking to one of them about some of their dogs. What I see is that both train their breeding stock, which I believe is crucial to know what their dogs bring to a breeding genetically. Both seem to have a design to their breeding program. They both seem committed to improving the breed. Correct breeding can only increase the odds of producing a desired outcome. The goal is to develop prepotency in the breeding stock. But the outcome is in no way guaranteed. That is why so many police, military and top sport dogs are purchased as adults. Some people who compete in sports beyond club level will give a pup a certain amount of time/training and if the pup is not what they want, they sell it and get a new prospect. Both kennels seem like reputable breeders to me.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Bitten said:


> Tom died from cancer, not bloat.
> 
> I have a Weberhaus dog, and often recommend Malinda. However I wouldn't buy another dog from her. My dog is an amazing pet, social with strangers, stable in all situations and a fantastic travel buddy!
> 
> Average at best club level sport dog, probably would have been great for a complete newbie. Not enough energy or drive for me, and too much handler sensitivity. Imo we're mismatched and I think it's obvious when we're on the field. I love her but I can't wait to get another dog for IGP.


I am glad to be corrected on that. Thinking back, I could well have had my wires crossed. 

It sounded as if he was asymptomatic right until the end which sure sounds like hemangio. Unfortunately, that can turn up un any dog, in any line, at any time. And, it often goes completely undetected. GSDs are a magnet.

I have lost more wonderful GSDs to that monster than I can even count. I hate hemangio.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

raff said:


> I am glad to be corrected on that. Thinking back, I could well have had my wires crossed.
> 
> It sounded as if he was asymptomatic right until the end which sure sounds like hemangio. Unfortunately, that can turn up un any dog, in any line, at any time. And, it often goes completely undetected. GSDs are a magnet.
> 
> I have lost more wonderful GSDs to that monster than I can even count. I hate hemangio.


 What in the name of corn on the cobb is going on here... He died from a birth mark? Someone in the club needs to call Malinda. So for those like myself I keep track all the East bloat dogs, so some recorders of Czech line or mixed working line don't record him as a bloater.


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## Kimmib49 (Nov 19, 2012)

I too have visited with Malinda about a pup, made inquiries and stalked her business online. She stands behind her dogs 100% and she is so friendly and knowledgeable. I will definitely be using her in the future.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Seer said:


> What in the name of corn on the cobb is going on here... He died from a birth mark? Someone in the club needs to call Malinda. So for those like myself I keep track all the East bloat dogs, so some recorders of Czech line or mixed working line don't record him as a bloater.


‘Birth mark’? What in gawd’s name are you talking about now?

Question is more rhetorical than real.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Opsoclonus said:


> Yes, really.
> 
> Let us not quarrel over superior genetics when it is of no value to this debate.
> 
> ...


If you have very little knowledge of Truehaus, how do you know they don’t do the same? Anyway, you are right, let the consensus of the board steer people in the right direction. Thanks, for enlightening me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I really don't have any direct experience with these breeders other than speaking to one of them about some of their dogs. What I see is that both train their breeding stock, which I believe is crucial to know what their dogs bring to a breeding genetically. Both seem to have a design to their breeding program. They both seem committed to improving the breed. Correct breeding can only increase the odds of producing a desired outcome. The goal is to develop prepotency in the breeding stock. But the outcome is in no way guaranteed. That is why so many police, military and top sport dogs are purchased as adults. Some people who compete in sports beyond club level will give a pup a certain amount of time/training and if the pup is not what they want, they sell it and get a new prospect. Both kennels seem like reputable breeders to me.


All I was trying to say Chip....but you can’t overlook the consensus of posts that I am sure are from informed opinions about both breeders?.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

raff said:


> ‘Birth mark’? What in gawd’s name are you talking about now?
> 
> Question is more rhetorical than real.


A hemangioma is birthmark. After reading your new thread I see what you were trying to say. I still think it would be prudent to clean up or confirm that Tom didn't died of bloat.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Seer said:


> A hemangioma is birthmark. After reading your new thread I see what you were trying to say. I still think it would be prudent to clean up or confirm that Tom didn't died of bloat.




They are talking about hemangiosarcoma. Cancer.


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

cliffson1 said:


> All I was trying to say Chip....but you can’t overlook the consensus of posts that I am sure are from informed opinions about both breeders?.


When one does not have knowledge we must make use of data extrapolation. 

My intention is in trying to help OP with his/her difficult decision with information rather than to merely say, 'flip a coin'.

I have personally seen puppy mills and those who call themselves breeders. They certainly have no place in the business. 

That being said, in no way would I attempt to denigrate the reputation of any breeder who has given a lifetime to the care and healthy future of this or any breed.

When speaking of the various genetic issues we would be foolish not to give credit to breeders like Weberhaus or Truehaus in eliminating debilitating and/or fatal disease.

This forum is great for attaining knowledge to benefit our pups. 
With that sentiment I post here lightheartedly and with no disrespect (regardless of the topic) only to pass on knowledge from study or experience.

In fact it was you @cliffson1 to whom I reached out to for your knowledge in choosing my pup. 

So for the wisdom you impart here a thank you is in order! :wink2:


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

I am going to clarify my comments regarding True Haus.

Seer seems to be struggling.

Anyone who reads my earlier post will see that I offer no opinions as to their breeding program. I don’t have enough information.

What I have is *one* True Haus dog and a history of a brief meeting with both of his parents (Gina/Esko). Again, my initial posting says just that.

Nor have any of my past club mates that I can recall over the years worked True Haus dogs. Not saying that no one did. Saying I don’t remember any.

Jim and Cindy were friendly and responsive throughout the process.

My observation of Gina was that she was very social and a nuisance barker. My dog showed exactly the same trait. It took serious work to extinguish.

His sire was also social.

The rest was all on paper. Based on that, my pup should have been a fine working dog. He’s not. He is not even suited to be a pet dog.

His hips are terrible, he certainly would not OFA. I haven’t done elbows; no point.

We chose not return him. Rolling the dice on another puppy had zero appeal. 

He is a mess. Because he shows no aggression toward humans, he’s still here. I and a number of professional K9 trainers have logged a lot of hours on this guy. At age four, he has been brought as far as he can be. He is not an unhappy dog. My husband had formed as much of a bond as anyone could with him and spends time playing Kong and hanging out with him.

In 30+ years of multiple GSD ownership, I have been all over the boards; byb, rescues, a couple of former K9s, good breeders, bad breeders, excellent breeders and gawd knows what breeders. Some dogs are just better than others.

Out of that entire collection, I can honestly say that the True Haus pup is the biggest disappointment. I won’t say he’s the worst of the lot. I reserve that honorific for the crazy fear biters.

But, one more time, for emphasis: 

*******This is not an indictment of True Haus********

I am sharing my experiences with ONE pup because a member asked and I had hoped to be of some help.

As for Weberhaus; I now have two of Malinda’s dogs. I can say, unequivocally, without hesitation, that these are the best I have experienced in 30+ years. The new girl just got here, but, she is a full sister to my two year old male and very much like him, I am happy to report.

I say this having had several other dogs, including imports, that I consider outstanding; so the bar is pretty high.

The predictability of the new girl is to be expected. Uniformity is usually a sign of a good breeding; it tells me that the breeder had well defined goals.

I can confirm the other contributors’ posts regarding Malinda’s willingness to make herself available to answer questions and provide support.

During my 30+ years, there was never a time during which I had just one GSD. Three seems to be my magic number. To count up the number of GSDs I have been blessed enough to have in my life would require paper and pencil.

Fortunately, I have found my Breeder-for-Life in Weberhaus.

Hoping this re-clarifies everything I said the first time.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Opsoclonus said:


> When one does not have knowledge we must make use of data extrapolation.
> 
> My intention is in trying to help OP with his/her difficult decision with information rather than to merely say, 'flip a coin'.
> 
> ...


No problem....maybe I came off strongly. For that I apologize! It’s just that BOTH of these kennels represents the high end of GS breeding, imo. Both are concerned with good placement of pups to match consumer. So I just wanted to give balance to the thread from my perspective. I have no personal pup in this comparison ?, once again all is good.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

raff said:


> I am going to clarify my comments regarding True Haus.
> 
> Seer seems to be struggling.
> 
> ...


It is very unfortunate that things turned out this way for you. I sincerely mean that! It’s my experiences that all breeders of many years of breeding will produce unfortunate pups from time to time. Even with the best genetics, there are still recessive faults in genetics of all dogs that may manifest in a breeding, especially with H&E. 
Couple this with the sometimes ineptitude of ownership,( not directed to you at all, just in general) and environmental lack of knowledge in terms of health, and even the most stellar breeder will have examples of unfortunateness that are available to be judged. But in all fairness, I try to look at the overall picture with breeders as opposed to the exceptions. But I respect your opinion based on your experience.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

raff said:


> I am going to clarify my comments regarding True Haus.
> 
> Seer seems to be struggling.


Correct, getting an accurate post from you is proving to be most difficult. 

You have stated multiple time your dog was pure Czech that was incorrect. 

You stated Tom died of bloat. This was incorrect. 

You corrected Tom statement that he had a birthmark a hemangioma and died from that. Of course that was incorrect.

Your stated Tom was a police dog in the Czech Rep with a Slovakia police title that wasn't. 

You Stated Its absurd to think dogs are at risk if their parents bloat.

On and on...... Raff. 

So yes struggling to follow you with any confidence that you understand AnYtHiNg you are posting about is challenging at best.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

raff said:


> I am going to clarify my comments regarding True Haus.
> 
> Seer seems to be struggling.
> 
> ...


Mycobar's dog has some of the same lines that were in your True Haus puppy (Lewis Malatesta, Ernst vom Weinbergblick, plus, of course, Troll, Yoschy and other descendants of Fero.)

Due to a bad experience with a dog I co-owned with these same lines, I wouldn't touch either of these dogs with a 10 foot pole! 

I know others who have had similar experiences with dogs out of Ernst and Lewis. It all depends on how the genetic dice sort themselves out, as has been said earlier. What looks fantastic on paper may be an absolute nightmare in real life.

In the case of the dog I co-owned, she was female aggressive. One day when she got out of her kennel and latched onto another female, it took 15 minutes before the other owner was able to get her to release her grip. 

Once she had puppies, she went entirely nuts. She would NOT stop pacing, even when turned out in a 8,000 square foot pen. She would constantly spin and pace in her indoor kennel, and as a result it was impossible to keep any weight on her. Even at 12 cups of food a day, you could count every rib. Test were done for epi, worms, etc. but no physical cause could be found for either the excessive pacing or the weight loss.

She was eventually returned to her original owner (not the breeder) and I lost track of what happened to her after that.

[apologies for going OT again, but this reinforces an important point made elsewhere about picking dogs based on pedigrees alone!]


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

raff said:


> I am going to clarify my comments regarding True Haus.
> 
> Seer seems to be struggling.
> 
> ...



I'm really sorry to hear this about your Gina/Esko pup. I know Gina well and Esko well. I know a couple of Gina/Esko pups, and they are pretty nice dogs. Zero health issues. A good friend of mine has one, first time GSD owner and handler, and she's put a few titles on her dog in a couple different venues. Perfectly healthy girl. I will agree, she's a bit more vocal than I like, but I've been able to get that under control when I've had her. 

Full disclosure, I trained with True Haus for a long time. I know them and there program well. I'm not saying I agree with everything they do, but this is the dog world and none of us agree on everything. I will say I've worked more of their dogs than I can count. I don't know much about there current dogs, as I've only seen or worked them in trial. What I can say is Jim and Cindy have always supported me in my dog adventures. So take that for what it's worth. 

Gina/Esko pup from a trial I worked in January. I am the decoy in the picture. 
50663777_10156990449058044_2611021566833590272_o by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> Mycobar's dog has some of the same lines that were in your True Haus puppy (Lewis Malatesta, Ernst vom Weinbergblick, plus, of course, Troll, Yoschy and other descendants of Fero.)
> 
> Due to a bad experience with a dog I co-owned with these same lines, I wouldn't touch either of these dogs with a 10 foot pole!
> 
> [apologies for going OT again, but this reinforces an important point made elsewhere about picking dogs based on pedigrees alone!]



It's not about any specific dogs in the pedigree, but how they are balanced out in other areas. So saying a dog has X in their pedigree is important, but where that dog is balanced out is also important. We have to look at the pedigree as a whole, not just the five key dogs we recognize. The same lines you brought up. That's because our dogs have the same sire. He's got one of the best temperaments I've ever met. Very powerful dog, very social dog. Trialed not only in bite sports but super crowded and chaotic AKC events. Things like that. Personally, I think too many want to blame genetics now days for lack of training. We have to remember what the intentions of these dogs are. I'm a little jaded on this side of the conversation as well since I train dogs for a living and specialize in aggression cases. I have a house full of them right now. Dogs that other trainers say to put down. In most cases, it's not the dogs that are the issue.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm a little jaded on this side of the conversation as well since I train dogs for a living and specialize in aggression cases. I have a house full of them right now. Dogs that other trainers say to put down. In most cases, it's not the dogs that are the issue.


Im guessing they had countless decades of experience with dogs both the trainers and the owners, lol. One has to be smarter then the dog that one is sent. Many times they are not.

Of course theres issues, but often its also due to people deep in over there head who improperly handled issues presented by the dog or allowed certain behavior to fester out the gate. Since feeling are the facts in todays world its easier to blame the breeder and the dog. 

Of course there is genetic issue but theres plenty of mistakes made as well, figuring which is which is pretty impossible without pet owner and dog in front of you and then the history.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Sunsilver said:


> Mycobar's dog has some of the same lines that were in your True Haus puppy (Lewis Malatesta, Ernst vom Weinbergblick, plus, of course, Troll, Yoschy and other descendants of Fero.)
> 
> Due to a bad experience with a dog I co-owned with these same lines, I wouldn't touch either of these dogs with a 10 foot pole!
> 
> ...


This is exactly it.

Well said.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> It's not about any specific dogs in the pedigree, but how they are balanced out in other areas. So saying a dog has X in their pedigree is important, but where that dog is balanced out is also important. We have to look at the pedigree as a whole, not just the five key dogs we recognize. The same lines you brought up. That's because our dogs have the same sire. He's got one of the best temperaments I've ever met. Very powerful dog, very social dog. Trialed not only in bite sports but super crowded and chaotic AKC events. Things like that. Personally, I think too many want to blame genetics now days for lack of training. We have to remember what the intentions of these dogs are. I'm a little jaded on this side of the conversation as well since I train dogs for a living and specialize in aggression cases. I have a house full of them right now. Dogs that other trainers say to put down. *In most cases, it's not the dogs that are the issue*.


You raise a good point. And it has been my experience that sometimes, some dogs just don't work well for some people. 
I think when people look at pedigrees they forget that these are not cell phones with specific features but live, thinking creatures.


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## Roark (Jan 18, 2019)

Hi everyone, while this did go a little off topic, I really appreciate everyone's input. It's quite helpful to get the feedback, both positive and negative, and gives me a lot to consider as I make my decision. Thanks again.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Seer said:


> Im guessing they had countless decades of experience with dogs both the trainers and the owners, lol. One has to be smarter then the dog that one is sent. Many times they are not.
> 
> Of course theres issues, but often its also due to people deep in over there head who improperly handled issues presented by the dog or allowed certain behavior to fester out the gate. Since feeling are the facts in todays world its easier to blame the breeder and the dog.
> 
> Of course there is genetic issue but theres plenty of mistakes made as well, figuring which is which is pretty impossible without pet owner and dog in front of you and then the history.


Exactly! I have a dog here for training right now that a girl imported from Germany to do sport with. She is having all sorts of issues with the dog so sent it to me for training. I was told that this dog is crazy high drive and her club says it's crazy for a GSD. IMO, the dog is easy. Not over the top in any way. Drives are decent, but nothing even close to over the top. She just happens to be too much dog for this particular person. 



Sabis mom said:


> You raise a good point. And it has been my experience that sometimes, some dogs just don't work well for some people.
> I think when people look at pedigrees they forget that these are not cell phones with specific features but live, thinking creatures.




Yes! We all have our favorite flavors so to speak. Even my wife and I have different taste in our dogs. Oddly enough, my wife likes the over the top drivey A-Hole dogs. Her personality handling and training style suit that. I prefer the more balanced thinking dogs. My go everywhere do everything dog. 

I ended up buying one of my puppies back for this very reason. The person who bought her said she had loads of experience and wanted a high drive female for sport. So that's what I sent her. Long story short, she couldn't handle the dog. I laughed when the transporter dropped her off at my house. He just looked at me and said "too much dog for her huh". He liked her. She's with a new owner now. A college kid who's putting the time in. He sends me pictures of all their adventures. Going hiking, fishing, doing bite work, her hanging out with other dogs, kids and so on. She's now living the life she deserves. So yes, sometimes the dog and human just don't click to no fault of there own. 

Here she is with her new person. 
image1 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
image2 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
image3 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
image4 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@mycobraracr I LIKE the thinking, balanced, go anywhere dogs. I seem to get stuck with the other kind. And they work for me!? It's all very weird. I always get stuck with the ones no one wants, the ones the trainers give up on. 
Bud was an A-hole, all his life. No one could deal with him, he put a well known, very experience trainer on a table and when I muzzled him he just turned himself into a battering ram. But as long as I handled him he was a Rockstar. He gave me competition level obedience with all kinds of flash, he loved to work and he did protection with speed and power. He was washed for no out. (Because in his mind I guess if you were a threat to me he just needed to take you out forever.)
By the way I love your dogs and you need to give us many more. And pictures!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> @mycobraracr I LIKE the thinking, balanced, go anywhere dogs. I seem to get stuck with the other kind. And they work for me!? It's all very weird. I always get stuck with the ones no one wants, the ones the trainers give up on.
> Bud was an A-hole, all his life. No one could deal with him, he put a well known, very experience trainer on a table and when I muzzled him he just turned himself into a battering ram. But as long as I handled him he was a Rockstar. He gave me competition level obedience with all kinds of flash, he loved to work and he did protection with speed and power. He was washed for no out. (Because in his mind I guess if you were a threat to me he just needed to take you out forever.)
> By the way I love your dogs and you need to give us many more. And pictures!



Haha sounds like a fun dog. 

I'll take my Kimbers any day of the week. She just does what I do. When it's time to work, she's as serious as they come. Everyone who has seen us is in love with her. A couple years ago I was teaching a decoy seminar and brought her out for a couple guys to work. One guys was struggling with some things and got a little down on his confidence one day, so I told him that before he went home for the night he needed to work my dog. Kimber is very serious, but, she super consistent and safe. She knows what to do and will do it no matter what you're doing. After that guy worked her, another guys asked if her could work her too. So he did. The second decoy turned to me and said "your dog is awesome, but she's crazy and I could never live with a dog like that." A few months later, that same guy came out to California with his wife and four kids. They stayed with my wife and I for a few days. While he was here, he said after seeing Kimber in the house and on a training field, he wouldn't believe it was the same dog. I said "exactly, she knows when to turn it on and turn it off." If you've seen the picture I post of the two boys on the couch with her, that's his two boys haha. A week later his wife called me and said they needed one of her puppies. They got a pup out of the 'A' litter. Kimber is the dog I like. Can hold her own in anything we do. She's just happy and content to do what I'm doing. Whether that's watching TV, doing bite work, nose work, mountain biking or even just going on a road trip. She doesn't care. She doesn't need to be entertained or train constantly. Like I've said she's my one in a million. Her progeny seem to be turning out very much the same.


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

Magwart said:


> @*Seer*, not sure if it's the same study Jax08 knows about, but here's the Tufts/Harvard/MIT team involved in a genetic investigation of bloat:
> https://now.tufts.edu/articles/genetics-bloat
> 
> 
> ...


Where did I say a genetic component to bloat is “absurd”?

In fact, what I said was that pretty much every trait has genetic components. The study of genetics is not a simple science. If it were, a lot of problems would have been bred out long ago.

At least you are honest enough to make the distinction between correlation and causality.

If the research has been ongoing since 1990, and still no firm conclusion has been established, it points in the direction of more research into environmental factors being necessary.

That is *not* a mandate to shut down research into the genetics. Both issues can be studied at the same time.

Also, it’s very helpful when we define our terms. To clarify, are we only discussing *bloat*; are we including *gastric torsion*, or are both being investigated together? 

It’s not at all simple.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Exactly! I have a dog here for training right now that a girl imported from Germany to do sport with. She is having all sorts of issues with the dog so sent it to me for training. I was told that this dog is crazy high drive and her club says it's crazy for a GSD. IMO, the dog is easy. Not over the top in any way. Drives are decent, but nothing even close to over the top. She just happens to be too much dog for this particular person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah you are lucky you have prodigy of your Kimber it will help when that dreadful time comes. I know I will not be the same when that day comes there are some big paws to fill. not sure if that can be done. It’s a gift to have that kind of special bond and I enjoy when people speak of it. I have to say she is a beauty and love the photos with the Chihuahua and child! Glad your pup found a forever home! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## raff (Apr 13, 2019)

A lot of the arguing going on here would make some sense if genetics was an exact science. It’s not. If it were, we would have seen the last of HD and other health problems generations ago.

To attempt to isolate a simple genetic cause/effect in response to the research question, “what causes bloat”?, is extremely naive.

If there is a suspected genetic component to any trait/disorder, it is more likely than not influenced by more than just one simple genetic mutation that can somehow be removed from the gene pool. Or a mutation that will inherit in some sort of predictable straight line process. These things are multifactoral.

To assume it’s possible to exclude the impact of environmental influences also makes no sense.

Dogs don’t live in isolation tanks.

Part of conducting a valid study requires controlling for as many extraneous variables as possible. If your subjects are dogs living in home environments, there will be a nearly unlimited number of extraneous variables for which you can’t control.

The study can control for things like breed, age, size, and general health, along with what’s known of the ancestors. But, then you’re doing breed specific research. How do you then generalize that to the total dog population?

To simplify; you always begin a research project with a research question. When it’s one as big as “what causes bloat”, or “is bloat genetic”, the difficulties is setting up your study are legion. (Actual research questions are typically much more refined, of course); unless your subjects live out their lives in research labs under tightly controlled circumstances.

Any study of bloat will have to be longitudinal. No valid conclusions can be reached unless the subjects are followed throughout their lives.

Again, there is no way to control for all of the variables that will impinge on the subjects outside of the lab setting.

The only way to counterbalance this effect is via replication studies. And, you certainly want to look for large sample sizes.

Not all studies are created equal. 

Again, it’s telling, but, not surprising, that after nearly 30 years of research, there is still no firm conclusion from the people who actually understand what they’re talking about.

Because of the speed with which technology is advancing, we will probably know a lot more in the near future.

None of this should be construed to suggest that bloat does not have genetic components. I would offer that many factors about any individual dog that are heritable make certain dogs more bloat prone. 

Ideally, researchers will ultimately identify the combinations of genetic and environmental factors that set up the highest risks that whatever genetic mutations may be involved are most likely to manifest. Once we know that, breeders can incorporate the information into their breeding decisions.

The takeaway should be that when you examine a phenomenon as complex as bloat, there is no simple genetic on/off, yes/no switch.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

raff said:


> A lot of the arguing going on here would make some sense if genetics was an exact science. It’s not. If it were, we would have seen the last of HD and other health problems generations ago.
> 
> To attempt to isolate a simple genetic cause/effect in response to the research question, “what causes bloat”?, is extremely naive.


It appears you are the only one arguing with Purdue, Tuffs, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center. 

Did you read any of the links provided by other posters before posting your last telling Purdue, Tuffs, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, how to do a proper study?


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