# Decision Not To Spay



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I believe I have finally come to a decision about when to spay Summer. The answer is not at all - unless she needs it because of a health issue.

I have looked at so many studies and there is a different way of thinking. As the decades roll by, studies, results and knowledge are revealing much food for thought. My personal decision is based on an issue that may become a health problem for her in her later years - no way to tell at this time.

It is the hormone activity and their supporting roles in bone and nerve support that led me to decide that this is the best decision for her. I know that I am going to have to be extra vigilant for warning signs of mammary cancer and pyometra. 

I just finished reading a very good article on this topic. Sorry, I can't leave a link but if you search "Neutering Dogs In Depth (stan Rawlinson) you will find it.

If I lived a normal lifestyle with my pup and I were not home pretty much 24/7 and if my property was not 100% fenced as it is (she is never out alone). I would not have made this decision. If I ever have to be away - I have a friend that will house sit and take care of Summer. He lives with his son 1/2 block away and would welcome some away time from his crabby son.

Has anyone else decided NOT to spay/neuter for the health of their dog?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes, Deja is remaining intact for the same reasons you stated. I really have thought this through.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Yes. That's why with the current two, the eldest only got spayed because false pregnancies were getting pretty awful (showed why the name for female dog has a bad connotation.) Otherwise, managing heats themselves were pretty easy. Much more so than I had anticipated.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have spayed Nara. It was like she changed, literally, overnight after the spay. She was suddenly more aggressive towards other dogs. She lost her oomph and seemed to have lost a step when she runs. I've asked GSD and dog experts who have more experience than me and they agreed that dogs who are fixed are a little slower than they were or would have been. I can't prove that as a whole, but I can trust their knowledge, and I can see firsthand what spaying Nara did to her. Nara has zero health issues. She might still die of cancer. I hope not, but it seems to be the biggest killer. Now there is news coming out about linking cancer to meat eating, and dogs naturally eat meat, so that would explain that no matter how preventative we are, if they're eating meat (raw or kibble), it might still cause cancer. 

All of my males are in tact. Nara was my first dog, so she was fixed at 11 months right before her first heat. When I took Paw Paw at 2 years old to get fixed, we had switched from a regular vet to a holistic vet, and the holistic vet talked me out of it. When we added Beowulf and Kaze, we kept them in tact as well. We haven't had any health issues or behavioral problems with any of them. Nara was my guinea pig. Now I've learned my lesson. I hope she still lives a nice long life with me, fixed or not.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I believe I have finally come to a decision about when to spay Summer. The answer is not at all - unless she needs it because of a health issue.
> 
> I have looked at so many studies and there is a different way of thinking. As the decades roll by, studies, results and knowledge are revealing much food for thought. My personal decision is based on an issue that may become a health problem for her in her later years - no way to tell at this time.
> 
> ...


I have gone back and forth with Shadow. She has at best a weak heart with an erratic beat, at worst a heart defect, some of her heats have been pretty awful, most not so bad. It may help with some behavior, she has pretty noticeable mood swings at some times in her cycle and now she comes in heat about every 4-5 months so we may have a repro issue. I don't find managing her difficult at all, I am really wary about putting a dog with a bad heart under. 
Sabi was a no brainer. She was a patrol dog and heats meant she was out of service. She liked to attack males while in heat. She had a false pregnancy at 2 that resulted in a wild hormone imbalance needing meds for several months, then she never came in heat again. Her vet was waiting for her to come in heat so we could time her spay for mid cycle. I finally did it at 3.5 years old and she had cysts all over her uterus that proved benign, and a necrotic ovary. After the spay, I can't say she lost any edge at work, if anything she was harder. However previously she didn't like males only when in heat, following her spay she didn't like them at all.


My Dane was done at 3, her vet refused to do it earlier. She died of heart failure at almost 7. She lived an average life for the breed and died of a common issue. I saw no complications and no behavior changes in her.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Yes, my 3 and some months old male is intact and I have no plans to neuter him unless he needs to be for health reasons and my 14 month old female is intact and will be staying intact for the foreseeable future.


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

I am not going to spay Rosie for the same reasons. Maybe one day but not until she is physically mature.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I was planning on neutering Samson at two years old but changed my mind.I would do it only if medically necessary.My other two(rescues) are spayed and neutered.Never noticed any physical or behavioral changes with either one.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> My other two(rescues) are spayed and neutered.Never noticed any physical or behavioral changes with either one.


But rescues are already spayed and neutered before they become available? Or did you know them before their surgeries?


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Mine is now 14 months and I won't have him neutered unless it's for a medical reason. So far I've not seen any behavioural issues like marking, humping or aggression towards other male dogs. My old (RIP) dog was never neutered and again I never had any problems (health or behaviour that vets associate with being intact) and lived to a ripe old age of 14.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This is nice to hear. I thought it might bring up some flack. That article I referenced is a really good read. Very detailed by many DVM's and Universities. It has specific lists of exact health issues re: + or - fixing. Thanks for responding.


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

Fallon is remaining intact for the reasons you mentioned. I've lost two neutered males to hemangiosarcoma. One was complicated by DM which may have been aggravated by core vaccinations. That is a good article by the way. Thank you.


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

That is a good read. I did not come across this one in my research. Thanks Stonevintage!


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## joeinca (Mar 19, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I believe I have finally come to a decision about when to spay Summer. The answer is not at all - unless she needs it because of a health issue.
> 
> I have looked at so many studies and there is a different way of thinking. As the decades roll by, studies, results and knowledge are revealing much food for thought. My personal decision is based on an issue that may become a health problem for her in her later years - no way to tell at this time.
> 
> ...


Can you post or PM me that info...I have a female intact and need to make this decision at some point too. THanks.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Current dog was spayed at 6 months - would not do that again. Earliest I'd consider fixing a dog again would be 3 years, but quite possibly not at all. Time will tell.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Bringing in an intact female, looking at vasectomy for Beau as a possible option. In addition to management but just another "safety" measure if I can get it.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I am considering an Ovary Sparing Spay. There are not many vets in the US that do this. Since there will still be estrogen there is still a risk of mammory tumors, but no pregnancy


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Okay, I have to add a tiny bit of humor here... I haven't had my Jade spayed yet (7 year old former brood bitch), and for health reasons--MY health reasons--I've *GOT* to do it this spring. She's in heat right now, and this is the first time I have put "panties" on her with a pad. 

So far, twice I have forgotten to take the panties off her when I took her out at night for her last pee...

Tonight my sister noticed two wet spots on the carpet... Piecing things together, Jade, for whatever reason, didn't ask to go out, she just peed in the panties (she thought they were diapers??), which soaked up as much as possible, the rest leaked out on the carpet. Orick, my boy who was neutered at 2 years, has been insistent at marking every spot she pees when they're outside... You guessed right, he not only had to mark *this* spot, but raised his leg on the couch to do it, so the couch AND the carpet got it. *SIGH* I wonder what tomorrow will bring...

I think it all would have been easier just following after her and cleaning up the blood spots.

Susan


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Fun times,crawling around with enzyme cleanerSamson has to mark over Misty's urine outside too.He either waits until she's done,or sniffle around until he finds it.Goofy boys!


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

It's a good thing human males don't act this way about female urine. Ha!

All three of my boys will lick and sniff and mark over Nara's pee, and over each other's pee that had marked Nara's pee. The'll be so excited their noses and mouths will be dripping. It's an intense reaction. Good thing Nara only pees outdoors. Ha!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

yuriy said:


> Current dog was spayed at 6 months - would not do that again. Earliest I'd consider fixing a dog again would be 3 years, but quite possibly not at all. Time will tell.


With females I did notice that a dog spayed at 1 versus 2-3 healed much quicker and had an easier recovery. I don't know if I'd want to go through that recovery process again--she was in a lot of pain. Therefore I will probably stick with males only going forward.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

llombardo said:


> With females I did notice that a dog spayed at 1 versus 2-3 healed much quicker and had an easier recovery. I don't know if I'd want to go through that recovery process again--she was in a lot of pain. Therefore I will probably stick with males only going forward.


You just reminded me of something... Years ago when I had my first female wolfdog, she got an infection at about 18 months, so my vet recommended spaying her (wouldn't have bred her, anyway). At the time I was upstairs in my other sister's house, and my poor girl, who weighed 110 lbs, had to go up and down a whole flight of stairs every time she went outside. She ended up hemorrhaging, sutures popped, it was a mess, which she did survive with help from the vet. I only have 5 steps up to get into this house, but I don't know whether I want to subject Jade to those after surgery... I could probably carry her, but that could be just as bad as letting her go up and down herself. Maybe I won't be spaying her!

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

counter said:


> It's a good thing human males don't act this way about female urine. Ha!
> 
> All three of my boys will lick and sniff and mark over Nara's pee, and over each other's pee that had marked Nara's pee. The'll be so excited their noses and mouths will be dripping. It's an intense reaction. Good thing Nara only pees outdoors. Ha!


Orick isn't quite as fanatical about it when Jade's not in heat. 

Susan


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm on the fence about my next male dog but my next female (Boxer) won't be fixed. Struddell was 4 yrs old before I had her fixed because I was terrified of 'Ace" Boxer thing and I told them no Ace no problems!

She was fine before and after so it really made no difference and at 65 ns she was at the top end of spec for a female Boxer, still looked like a tiny thing next to the boys. 

No insult to Mals entended.


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## Lubo (Dec 20, 2015)

We are researching this as well. Zoe is only 6 months now and we definetly won't be doing it until she is fully grown.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I spayed my girl at 15 months, a few months after her first and only season.

It's a decision that worked for us, and thank goodness she hasn't had any adverse effects. I haven't noticed any changes in her energy levels or personality that couldn't also be explained by maturation and in fact seem to me to be more likely to be due to maturation (more aloof with people instead of the goofy friendly puppy she was, less "teenage stubborn," to name two).

I chose to spay when I did because based on what I've read, the female's body thinks it is pregnant with each and every season and on a simplistic level, this is what causes the heightened risk of cancer. It sounded like to an extent, "Use it or lose it." The take home message based on studies I've seen is that there's no health benefit to neutering a male (societal or behavioral benefits, possibly). However, with a female and the "spay or not to spay" question, you're making a tradeoff in terms of which risks you assume. I discussed the pros and cons with two vets. Spaying her after the first season seemed like a sweet spot in terms of balancing those risks.

Other reasons include that my dog had a long season. She was in season for a full four and a half weeks by the time all was said and done. And in my city, that means house arrest for all that time. She could not set foot off the property. That means no walks, no class, no park, no ball games at the softball diamond. It was illegal for me to do any of that with an intact female in heat. We played and trained a lot in the yard. She was very bored. I felt it would be very unfair for me to force this lively, active dog to sit around and do effectively nothing (in her mind) for four and a half weeks every 6-7 months.

And when she wasn't bored, she was lying on the couch obviously feeling miserable.

Also, my lucky husband was the only one at home for both "crime scene" moments and I think his head was about to explode after the second one, poor guy.

For future dogs? I'd keep the dog intact through the age specified by the breeder contract (which in my experience tends to follow the veterinary research) and then evaluate based on sex, individual needs, and situation. I'm confident we made the right choice for the dog we have now. The right choice for a different dog might well be different.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

WateryTart said:


> I spayed my girl at 15 months, a few months after her first and only season.
> It's a decision that worked for us, and thank goodness she hasn't had any adverse effects. I haven't noticed any changes in her energy levels or personality that couldn't also be explained by maturation and in fact seem to me to be more likely to be due to maturation (more aloof with people instead of the goofy friendly puppy she was, less "teenage stubborn," to name two).
> 
> If I had spayed Deja at that age, I would have contributed her changed behavior to the spay. She is intact at 2+ years and I can see her maturity level rise. She is not interested in playing with other dogs besides Cam, our own pup, and is getting more alert on other dogs, which can be the presence of Cam as well.
> I am still on the fence on how to go about having two intact sexes in the house.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I just went today to have Apollo xrayed to make sure hips are looking ok and growth plates are closed. All looks good and he will be neutered soon. Apollo has more guarding tendencies then my other two, which is ok, but noticeable to me. I am hoping that neutering tones that down just a notch. In the last week I've seen probably 6-7 posts in a group I belong to on FB of intact males dying due to prostrate problems between the ages of 7-9. All undetected and caught to late.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> WateryTart said:
> 
> 
> > I spayed my girl at 15 months, a few months after her first and only season.
> ...


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

I kept Ms.Chili intact untill she was 3 yrs. She was comming in season every 4 months like clock work. I had no intention of breeding her, she's a nice dog but she has seasonal allergies, so I did have her spayed.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The only type of cancer I read about that increases with a no spay female is mammary cancer. I hope I didn't miss something.

The other thing I just learned is that if the female is fixed too early, her "female parts" don't fully develop (there are some parts that are supposed to be external or outside of the body). This can cause internal creases and folds that promote infection....

I was surprised to read these numbers on the study I referenced. In females that are spayed, urinary incontinence presents at some point in 20-24%. In mammary cancer- if caught early - has an excellent cure rate with overall mammary cancer amounting to only 1% as a cause of death in female dogs. 

My choice had to do with the beneficial qualities of the hormones regarding their supporting role in joint and bone health as mine may have a history of HD in her lines.

The one concern I do have in my decision is Pyometra.... So, it is a hard decision but I have to count on constant vigilance to watch for both. Mine gets a quick check every week to make sure all looks normal.

I am worried about the pyometra though - if something like that occurs in an older dog - the risk of surgery and recovery is greater. Just a very difficult decision.....


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> I am still on the fence on how to go about having two intact sexes in the house.


I've done it for a couple of years now, and this current heat of Carly's is making me rethink things. This is the first heat that I've dealt with that Russell is grumpy and growly. Russell is never going to be bred, and I'm not going to show him, and I'm seriously considering having him neutered. He'll be 3 next month, so he's a grown boy. It'll definitely make my life easier, not that it's that difficult to crate and rotate, just inconvenient. It's hard on both of them too, since they hang out and play together all the time. Three plus weeks of separation is making both of them mopey. I don't want to spay Carly because I still show her as a special occasionally, so...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am more leaning towards a vasectomy for Cam as he gets older. He still has one high up testicle that is on its way down but the journey has taken too long to make him breed worthy, if he were at all. My thinking is that once he is not fertile he can safely mate with Deja if she is in heat and I don't have to manage them in keeping them separated. I know it will be a couple of chaotic days. Thoughts on health issues with this scenario?
A full neuter for Cam is out of the question as he is a rough collie and his coat will turn out awfully looking without his hormones.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> WateryTart said:
> 
> 
> > I spayed my girl at 15 months, a few months after her first and only season.
> ...


It's hard to know for sure to which factor to attribute any changes. When alteration happens at that age, the two variables are certainly confounded. My guess is formed based on the fact that my dog is changing in ways I'd expect as she gets older even though she was spayed at a relatively young age. But I do acknowledge it is just a guess.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

joeinca said:


> Can you post or PM me that info...I have a female intact and need to make this decision at some point too. THanks.


You could leave her ovaries and have her uterus removed. That's what I'm going to do.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

ausdland said:


> You could leave her ovaries and have her uterus removed. That's what I'm going to do.


I agree hormones are extremely important. This is what I plan to do if/when I get another bitch. 

I've been getting my boys vasectomies. Right now little 8 month old Scooby has one retained testicle so he'll need to have that removed and I'll get the vasectomy for the remaining one when he's between 17 and 24 months old.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I'm never having female dogs again lol. Living with intact females (who belong to my roommate) and having to deal with my neutered male being a horny brat, and my younger male still having his man bits... It's just a big pain in the butt. The gross discharge, the males who get really crazy upset about being around females with no poontang. Yeah. Just done.

However, my males will be neutered sometime between a few years and 8 years. Most of the cancers in males related to those man bits seem to hit around there. Prostate issues are a real big pain in the butt. You cannot remove a prostate tumor, only debulk it and if it is obstructing the urethra, the only thing you can do is place a stent within it and hope it helps.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I was considering this but I think after my pup's first heat I'll go with a full spay. I have an intact male in the house and the neighbors let their intact male wander freely in the neighborhood.

but if you want to know more about Ovary Sparing Spay check here
Ovary-Sparing Spay - Parsemus Foundation


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Will vets do that? I was leaning toward a vasectomy for our male, since we don't want to breed him, but I don't know yet if our vet offers that option.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

car2ner said:


> I was considering this but I think after my pup's first heat I'll go with a full spay. I have an intact male in the house and the neighbors let their intact male wander freely in the neighborhood.
> 
> but if you want to know more about Ovary Sparing Spay check here
> Ovary-Sparing Spay - Parsemus Foundation


Aside from your own intact male, I would not let a neighbor's dog dictate whether I spay my dog or not.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The more you research- the more confusing it gets. My female has had her 2nd heat and will be having her 3rd in 90 days. I had made the decision not to spay - BUT I read another opinion yesterday that I looked at from another post on a different topic entirely.

Norway..... article was from their animal health ministry. Prior to about 2012 there was an actual law that prohibited spay or neuter for dogs in that country unless it was a necessary medical procedure to to disease or deformity and a threat to health. 

From some of the reports- female dogs were running as high as 25% needing radical mammary surgery due to tumor issues.... now that they have relaxed the law that number is going down....

The reason I made the decision not to spay was looking at data in the USA that stated that the hormones are certainly beneficial to bone and joint health and the death rate for mammary cancer was less than 1% _if caught early_, in addition- the rate for spay related urinary incontinence was as high as 24%.....

Sometimes I wish I would just step away from the computer, make a decision re; my dog's health and diet and leave it at that..... Arrgh!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Same here, Stone. I like the hormones so she will remain intact. It does mean to remain vigilant for tumors and pyometra though but I know my dogs inside out and they live inside with is so I can see every little change no matter how minor. Cam will also remain intact but I think he will have a vasectomy later on, at one year old.
If spaying is so healthy, why do woman have to keep their ovaries? I discussed this with a naturopath and she said that our bodies respond the same way as dogs'.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Aside from your own intact male, I would not let a neighbor's dog dictate whether I spay my dog or not.


It is a tough choice. As I continue to read there are many pros and cons no matter which way you go with the gals. 
And like it or not, a free ranging neighbor's dog that my boy really does not like can make life with a gal in season even more a pain.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Same here, Stone. I like the hormones so she will remain intact. It does mean to remain vigilant for tumors and pyometra though but I know my dogs inside out and they live inside with is so I can see every little change no matter how minor. Cam will also remain intact but I think he will have a vasectomy later on, at one year old.
> If spaying is so healthy, why do woman have to keep their ovaries? I discussed this with a naturopath and she said that our bodies respond the same way as dogs'.


Well humans with ovarian cancer have one of the highest death rates. So probably not a good comparison to keep a dogs. 

"About 22,280 women will receive a new diagnosis of ovarian cancer.
About 14,240 women will die from ovarian cancer.
Ovarian cancer ranks fifth in cancer deaths among women, accounting for more deaths than any other cancer of the female reproductive system."


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Well humans with ovarian cancer have one of the highest death rates. So probably not a good comparison to keep a dogs.
> 
> "About 22,280 women will receive a new diagnosis of ovarian cancer.
> About 14,240 women will die from ovarian cancer.
> Ovarian cancer ranks fifth in cancer deaths among women, accounting for more deaths than any other cancer of the female reproductive system."


So why don't we have our ovaries removed after having had our families complete? Why do we remove body parts of dogs as easily as if it were a car?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> So why don't we have our ovaries removed after having had our families complete? Why do we remove body parts of dogs as easily as if it were a car?


It's called prevention in dogs. Millions of women live without the uterus, ovaries, etc. 

"Over 650,000 hysterectomies are performed in the United States annually. 80% are for benign conditions."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> It's called prevention in dogs. Millions of women live without the uterus, ovaries, etc.
> 
> "Over 650,000 hysterectomies are performed in the United States annually. 80% are for benign conditions."


I think Wolfy's comment was to ask if we do it for prevention in dogs, why don't we do it for humans.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think Wolfy's comment was to ask if we do it for prevention in dogs, why don't we do it for humans.


Indeed


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I think that if you remove the ovaries from a woman putting them into early menopause, may harm the skeletal structure, although it may provide some protection for the heart. 
Studies often don't give clear evidence one way or another. And to put a human through invasive surgery when it is not truly clear what the consequences will be is irresponsible as well as expensive. 
After reading studies about dogs and percentages of who gets what with or without hormones gets really confusing and complicated.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

For dogs I think it's about convenience. 

In general castrated males are less prone to male-male aggression, are a bit less intense, and are easier to live with for most pet owners. 

Most owners don't want to deal with heat cycles.

Most dog owners also don't want to have to do any work to prevent pregnancy or have to keep their females contained for a few weeks twice a year. It is easier just to remove the possibility.

The health issues are a separate issue from the population control and behavior issues. If you can handle an intact dog, and know how to prevent unwanted pregnancies then the health issues, behavior, etc. come into play.

Humans just aren't the same. Huge huge differences from ethical issues to body image to the fact that we have certain screenings readily available to people, both genetic tests, and also things like mammograms or accessible MRIs, PAP smears etc. With dogs, aside from detectable issues like a lump on the testicle animals mask sickness and we often don't know they are sick until they are really sick. But that isn't even the real issue. Human-rights issues and many other human-centered considerations come into play, very very different than dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think Wolfy's comment was to ask if we do it for prevention in dogs, why don't we do it for humans.


That's a good question. Why don't they? My point is millions live without these parts and do fine. Most are removed for benign reasons, so therefore probably don't need to be but are. So what would happen if this was an option for women? I don't think anyone will ever find out


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

car2ner said:


> I think that if you remove the ovaries from a *woman *putting them into early menopause, may harm the skeletal structure, although it may provide some protection for the heart.
> Studies often don't give clear evidence one way or another. And to put a *human* through invasive surgery when it is not truly clear what the consequences will be is irresponsible as well as expensive.
> After reading studies about dogs and percentages of who gets what with or without hormones gets really confusing and complicated.


Now replace 'woman' or 'human' with 'dog' and you have my take on this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, women who have full hysterectomies (usually because of cancer), where both ovaries and the uteris are removed, these women have to take hormone therapy for life. It isn't good for women. It's hard on them. 

Usually they try to leave at least an ovary.

My dogs will keep their parts unless those parts have a problem. I don't like creating other problems to prevent possible issues.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> Actually, women who have full hysterectomies (usually because of cancer), where both ovaries and the uteris are removed, these women have to take hormone therapy for life. It isn't good for women. It's hard on them.
> 
> Usually they try to leave at least an ovary.
> 
> My dogs will keep their parts unless those parts have a problem. I don't like creating other problems to prevent possible issues.


Actually there are new studies out with that gene that can be tested(BRCA)

Do dogs have that gene?

The new study included 5,787 BRCA carriers from Canada, the U.S. and parts of Europe. Researchers tracked their health for an average of 5½ years, and found 186 who eventually developed either ovarian cancer or related fallopian tube or peritoneal cancer. *Ovary removal reduced cancer risk by 80 percent.
*
Interestingly, removing the ovaries can reduce the risk of breast cancer as well by affecting hormone levels in the body — and Narod found the surgery increased women's chances of survival even if they already had developed breast cancer.

And 

About 50 percent of women who have a hysterectomy between ages 40-44 have their ovaries removed, and 78 percent of women between ages 45-64 undergoing a hysterectomy have their ovaries removed. All together, about 300,000 American women have their healthy ovaries removed every year.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Actually, women who have full hysterectomies (usually because of cancer), where both ovaries and the uteris are removed, these women have to take hormone therapy for life. It isn't good for women. It's hard on them.
> 
> Usually they try to leave at least an ovary.
> 
> My dogs will keep their parts unless those parts have a problem. I don't like creating other problems to prevent possible issues.


All the women I know that had complete hysterectomies were put on hormone therapy. Many women going through menopause are forced onto hormones as well. It can be a struggle.

I know of one woman that had a complete hysterectomy in her early thirties and initially took hormone replacements. Because she was so young, she got fed up with taking pills daily and stopped taking them. I met her when she was in her very late forties, physically what the lack of hormones did to her wasn't pretty.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I find I'm more confused then ever and next vet appointment will talk more in detail with my vet. We had always spayed our females growing up and all lived healthy lives. We had neutered dogs and a unneutered dog. Our intact male lived the longest. Not sure if that made a difference. Max has a very small hernia and a retained testicle. The vet said the hernia was very small and he thought it may right itself as a young pup but never did. I talked about a retained testicle causing cancer and he told me it was something along the lines less then 2 percent chance of cancer from a retained testicle. Although I will discuss it further with my vet I'm still up in the air. I would like to have him remove the retained testicle only if he would do that. I'm concerned though of him fishing around for it. If we ever get a female dog in the far future though which really unlikely as I'm content but who knows- she would have to be spayed or him neutered. This another factor to consider as I really like to leave him intact. I am concerned mostly about Pyo in unspayed females.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

One major difference between dogs and humans is lifespan and dogs don't go through menopause.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I work in two different single doctor veterinary hospitals and still see pyometra and mammary tumors weekly. So the threat is very real. I am keeping my own bitch intact for future competition/breeding purposes, but she will certainly be spayed upon retirement.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> I work in two different single doctor veterinary hospitals and still see pyometra and mammary tumors weekly. So the threat is very real. I am keeping my own bitch intact for future competition/breeding purposes, but she will certainly be spayed upon retirement.


In the clinics you only see the problems, not the ones who are intact and healthy, so that is not a science-based. If you think the threat is that real, then why keep your female intact for so long? If you spay her after retirement, spaying will prevent pyometra only. I think all that spaying and neutering is only for human convenience.
Cam, at 5 months old, still has a yo-yoing testicle. I will let it be if it stays up and have it monitored by ultra sound before ever putting him through surgery.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> In the clinics you only see the problems, not the ones who are intact and healthy, so that is not a science-based. If you think the threat is that real, then why keep your female intact for so long? If you spay her after retirement, spaying will prevent pyometra only. I think all that spaying and neutering is only for human convenience.
> Cam, at 5 months old, still has a yo-yoing testicle. I will let it be if it stays up and have it monitored by ultra sound before ever putting him through surgery.


 Well, intact bitches may or may not get mammary tumors or pyometra, but spayed bitches may not compete in conformation nor can they be used for breeding. If that is what GatorDog is intending for his bitch, then his path is quite clear. 

Pyo doesn't really scare me. Again, it is performing invasive surgery that removes glands, and possibly compromises the system by throwing it out of balance as a prevention. I choose to prevent such issues by monitoring my bitches daily and knowing them well enough to determine if they might be having an issue. I might fail in this. But performing the surgery might cause spay incontinence, seizures, hormonal imbalance, compromised immune system, other complications up to and including death. If it isn't broken, I am not going to fix it. 

Odessa required C-sections when she was bred. She never passed any of the whelping-related fluid prior to the C-section. When she went in, and she was full of fluid, but no puppies, I went ahead and spayed her, because she was old enough, not going to be bred again, and I did not expect that to resolve itself naturally. They said, if she isn't sick she would get very sick. Well, she wasn't sick at all. But, there were enough extenuating circumstances that the spay made sense.


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## joeinca (Mar 19, 2015)

I doubt I will spay Koda. I've read much the same and see no reason to. She will not be getting knocked up by accident..because I just won't let that happen.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> In the clinics you only see the problems, not the ones who are intact and healthy, so that is not a science-based. If you think the threat is that real, then why keep your female intact for so long? If you spay her after retirement, spaying will prevent pyometra only. I think all that spaying and neutering is only for human convenience.
> Cam, at 5 months old, still has a yo-yoing testicle. I will let it be if it stays up and have it monitored by ultra sound before ever putting him through surgery.



That's not true at all? Fortunately, people also bring in their animals for routine veterinary care...not just wait until its a problem. For the record, I see just as many intact males with prostate problems too. 

Spaying will decrease the risk of pyometra, and that is worth it to me. I don't consider it a "convenience" at all. I know what I see day in and day out, and you're more than welcome to form your own opinions as well.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GatorDog said:


> That's not true at all? Fortunately, people also bring in their animals for routine veterinary care...not just wait until its a problem. For the record, I see just as many intact males with prostate problems too.
> 
> Spaying will decrease the risk of pyometra, and that is worth it to me. I don't consider it a "convenience" at all. I know what I see day in and day out, and you're more than welcome to form your own opinions as well.


 One of my pup's owner's neutered him young. He died of prostate cancer when he was 7 or 8. They say intact males are more likely to get an enlarged prostate, but prostate cancer risk is higher in neutered males. I'll keep mine intact, thank you.

I've had lots of bitches for 14 years. Only 1 bitch, the one that needed C-sections needed to be spayed for something that was likely to make her become ill -- false pregnancy where the uteris filled with fluid. She never released any fluid before a whelping, even when the puppies were separating from the placentas during the C-section, so I figured that wouldn't resolve itself and went ahead and spayed her. I could have had them open her and drain it off, but because of her age, and because I would not have bred her again, I went ahead and spayed. 

No other bitch of mine ever had anything resembling pyo. Or mammary cancer. I am not saying it won't happen, but I am less concerned with the possibility of pyo than I am with the possible complications and long-term effects.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't think it is all that simple with intact bitches. Whether they are bred or not has an impact on cancers and other issues as well, with pregnancies decreasing risks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't think it is all that simple with intact bitches. Whether they are bred or not has an impact on cancers and other issues as well, with pregnancies decreasing risks.


 Well, that may be true, but many of my girls have never been pregnant, Heidi, Dolly, Joy, Milla, Ninja Hepzibah, and we won't mention the young'ns.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't breed, so it really is not an area of expertise for me. 

I know pregnancy impacts various female cancers in humans as well providing protection from some while increasing risks for others.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> That's not true at all? Fortunately, people also bring in their animals for routine veterinary care...not just wait until its a problem. For the record, I see just as many intact males with prostate problems too.
> 
> Spaying will decrease the risk of pyometra, and that is worth it to me. I don't consider it a "convenience" at all. I know what I see day in and day out, and you're more than welcome to form your own opinions as well.


I think the difference in opinions comes from those with personal vs professional experience.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

No disrespect to GatorDog, but you can't take the professional experience of somebody that deals with a higher percentage of unwell dogs and paint that experience with the same brush as you would somebody that deals with all dogs, sick or healthy, in appropriate proportions. Apples and oranges. And I am not saying anybody's personal experience qualifies either.

What I am saying is that studies and statistics show that the cancers and conditions involved affect only a small percentage of intact females, and those numbers are overall.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It's hard to get accurate numbers on any of this. Really. I mean, of course the bitches that get pyo are the ones that have the parts. If they don't have them, they don't get it. So you can make a case for 100% of females with pyometra being intact. It is true. Just like 100% of dogs with testicular cancer are intact. But how many are they? What is the percentage rate in dogs 2%? Less? 

There is such a powerful agenda out there to alter all the companion animals, that people can and will use health issues and behavioral issues, and the ends justify the means, even if the data is incomplete, inconclusive or even contrary to what they are saying. The people that we are generally talking about this to, are people who have not necessarily researched it themselves or are coming from their own experience, but often people who have learned what they know from someone they trust and respect.


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