# what is a "natural" dog



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay Wildo you want new topics , how about this one ----- a convergence of topics which include a recent thread on Czechoslovakian Vlcak Page

memories of my friend who had trained with Pohranicni Straze and the yard of their experimental "wolf-dogs" , and reading Pukka's Promise but more importantly reading

Ceiridwen Terrill's PART WILD , I was thinking more and more of just exactly what it is to be a more natural dog --- still a dog .

In my childhood there were dogs, mutts, that were proud 100% street-dogs . No one tried to discover what percentage they were of GSD or Akita or Poodle etc. They came from genuine mutt-stock. Were they basically good and healthy?

Well the street dogs are indigenous dogs. You see them wandering in the streets in Brazil, in Iran, in India , in our Canadian north . I actually got to meet one of them -- super smart and self reliable , a little dog named Spruce .

Common denominator is an archetypical body type , feral dog, pariah dog, native dog --- .

Found this -- going back to pre-Columbian native American canine genetics Song Dog Kennels : The Founder Kennels for the American Indian Dog


----------



## Switchblade906 (May 5, 2012)

I dont see a point....


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

The current favored theory in dog domestication is that some wolves hung around the fringes of human settlements anywhere from 30,000 to 10,000 years ago scavenging human food scraps. The humans realized these wolves were useful since they naturally sounded warnings whenever other predators or strange tribes entered their territories. So the humans instead of killing these particular wolves tolerated their presence from several meters away. This state of tolerance may have lasted for thousands of years until wolf DNA (and some scientists argue human DNA as well) changed to the point that these particular proto-dogs became tame enough to mix with humans. It appears that dog domestication happened in different parts of the world at different times independently and was probably a slow process spanning hundreds if not thousands of years not one 'eureka' moment. 

Now back to the present. A sister of mine lived in Africa for several years among subsistence farmers in rural areas in a fairly remote part of the continent. Since everyone in my family is a dog lover she developed an interest in observing the villagers' dogs. They eventually gifted her with one.

African village dogs genetically unique from all breeds | Cornell Chronicle

These dogs look pretty much like the generic street dog that you can find in virtually every country in the world today. They are not selectively bred by people but breed amongst themselves in the streets as they are totally off-leash. Of course, spay/neuter are unknown practices.

The relationship that the villagers had with their dogs was quite different with the relationship that we (in the US) have with our dogs. The individual dogs did not have names. Every dog was just called a generic name for dog in the local language. People generally spoke to dogs only when shooing them away. Dogs basically decided if they wanted to approach humans. Dogs were owned by families and were fed meager diets of food scraps (supplemented by whatever they could find in the streets), and generally slept in their family's compounds outdoors. Most dogs fiercely defended their family compounds from strangers. They rarely received physical affection from the humans and sort of just hung around.

Once in a while, men from the village would go hunting for wild animals. Typically, one to three men would carry hunting weapons and set off from the village. Five to six dogs from the neighborhood would just decide to go with the hunters. The hunters did not decide which dogs to take, the dogs decided themselves. My sister never went along on hunting forays so she did not know exactly how the dogs worked with the hunters. Some dogs would develop a reputation in the village as being good hunters, and the men appreciated it when these would decide to go with them. Some hunters developed some type of bond with a favorite hunting dog so these favored dogs would be fed better and be shooed away less but you would not see them being given the type of physical affection we see here.

My sister brought the dog home to the US when her African assignment was over. The dog did not bark at first but could howl with a variety of vocalizations that didn't sound like the dog howls we are used to. She did learn to bark with an 'almost bark sound' by copying the American dogs around her. What to me is incredibly interesting is this dog was basically raised like a typical American pet dog while having African village dog genes. This dog is addicted to physical affection from my sister and other family members. She is constantly nuzzling your hand asking for a pet. Once you start petting her she won't leave your side and if you stop she'll ask for more. She is protective of my sister's home and would take awhile to accept visitors. She is very selective of which people to trust and even some family members she has known for years could still get growled at. She is not a biter though and frequently uses the growl to basically say, "leave me alone." She would rather avoid than fight, and will walk away from other dogs or people. She is good to take on hikes because she is aloof to other dogs and people but will growl if a stranger tries to pet her. She is very agile and light on her feet with excellent balance on logs. I've encouraged my sister to try her at agility.

Her relationship with my GSDs has been difficult since she is a growler. My GSDs do not take growling from any dog lightly and will not walk away. So it took a long time, probably longer than normal, before the cultural barrier was breached. Now they tolerate each other.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The book by Brian Hare The Genius of Dogs | Brian Hare has a great bit of history as well, and I like how he made sure he didn't use opinion but research.
I read Pukka's Promise, and then went right on to Hare's book...both are worthy reads. 
I grew up with dogs that had the freedom that Ted K writes of. There was a different dynamic when the dogs weren't micro-managed or treated as furbabies. They were members of the families, but not coddled or helicoptered over as we all seem to do these days.
I've always been intrigued by the American Indian Dog, and one 'breeder' local to me is exploiting the name, IMO. Here is the website: indiandogs4u


----------



## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Living with dogs is all about their behavior. Are they submissive? dominant? aggressive? shy? driven? smart? fearful? bold? Of course, their appearance is important too. For many, appearance starts out as primary importance (if you can get the dog owner to admit it) but it's the behavior that determines how you live with them.
Mutts have the same wide variety (wider?) of behaviors as GSDs.
My point? 
Many seem to think that their GSD acts a certain way because s/he is a GSD and has this or that ancestry.
Maybe it is just because s/he is a dog and all dogs (like people) have individual personalities.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wonderful responses . No point . That is too narrow . Think large and wide and broad .

One of the problems in "breeds" , GSD , is that sometimes people fail to remember that first and foremost they are a DOG, then a specific modified dog "breed". 

For anyone who has really read von Stephanitz they will recall that the first quarter is the Rittmeister pondering cynology --- the development of "dog" and then taking great pains to document the indigenous dogs in use in different regions , different purposes . I would not doubt that had pre-Colombian dogs been available for his study he would have done so , and included them in his book .

When you have a breed it takes a great deal of effort to fight nature . 

If I could I would cut and paste the dog on this web site , upper left corner Song Dog Kennels : The Founder Kennels for the American Indian Dog and then I would ask -- what do you think of my new GSD . You may well assume that it is a young gangly Czech working line .

Same page where you have the little pup -- if someone presented that picture and asked if the pup was purebred - many would say so. I probably would . GSD.

the others - could pass for liver colouration.

Von Stephanitz did want his dog to be natural. 

If this is the form which is most efficient we should consider it.

by the way Spruce the native Inuit dog is impressively sturdy -- nothing hot house orchid about her -- and like the other examples she does not bark.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Many seem to think that their GSD acts a certain way because s/he is a GSD and has this or that ancestry.
Maybe it is just because s/he is a dog and all dogs (like people) have individual personalities"

but they do, it is . The difference is there because we have chosen , deliberately selected for it. Otherwise a GSD and a Bloodhound and a Saluki would be the same?

Actually there is a very good thread which Cliff started called "IceBerg Breeders"


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Every dog is natural as long as you don't crop ears, dock tails, neuter, spay, remove dew claws and vocal cords. IN short; intact the way they were born and meant to be. Just my opinion.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

does eating kibble factor into that wolfy dog?


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> does eating kibble factor into that wolfy dog?


*hearing sarcasm* but no.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

NO to this "Every dog is natural as long as you don't crop ears, dock tails, neuter, spay, remove dew claws and vocal cords. IN short; intact the way they were born and meant to be. Just my opinion."

Pugs extremely unnatural -- deformed . Bulldogs, Basset hounds , collies with skulls so narrow , the King Charles of some British expose who had brains too large for the skull and suffered terrible seizures. Dogs with achondroplasia as part of their breed description.

had to edit to include behavioural traits -- a good natural dog tends to be a generalist , not a specialist -- 

Konrad Lorenz and Trumler wrote about Dingos --- another natural form of dog. [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Man-Meets-Dog-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415267455[/ame] I wish they had not used that doggy milk bone as a front cover 

I have the book in original German and a very early English edition. This is where what was coined as "bio-sensor" was written about many many years prior .


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks for the info about this breed. It's name is almost the same as my maiden name, I'm 1/2 Czech. So if I ever get a yard, I should have a GSD for my German 1st name and a Vlcak for my last. Yes, silly.

Our family did look up the Indian dog, and were actually thinking of getting one but the breeders were to far for us to travel.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

correction - Lorenz wrote When Man Meets Dog .

The book I was actually thinking of , which I have an early German edition (Mit dem Hund auf du , (1971) and an early English addition, Your Dog and You , was written by Eberhard Trumler . Your dog and you: Eberhard Trumler: 9780816491711: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I have always heard that if dogs were left to their own devices in terms of surviving and breeding you would find that within a shockingly few generations that the "natural dog" is a medium sized brown dog. 

Temperament unknown but no doubt it would be resourceful and smart because these studies are based off of what happens with street dogs around the world.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

not an academic study but much more relaible, indigenous people here kept the genetically purest form of dingo to this day on an isolated island population, the dogs helped mainly track game that ran off with a spear hanging out of them in thick vegetation. any dog that showed people agression were killed and eaten. so selective breeding ocurred in a semi-wild to almost wild population which then bred to truly wild. alpha pack theory is surely not tenable within the last known 40 000 years and a timid mainly solitary scavenger theory is clearly more appropriate if this scenario exists in other parts of the world for most of the breeds that have been invented at least.

pit bulls that have an extended fight duration when most dogs will cease the fight as soon as dominance is established, this is as far from nature as you can get, pits would never survive in the wild where a collie probably would, and do, at least as hybrids.


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

LifeofRiley said:


> I have always heard that if dogs were left to their own devices in terms of surviving and breeding you would find that within a shockingly few generations that the "natural dog" is a medium sized brown dog.


that's my sister's African village dog...30 lbs, brown all over with uneven short white socks...when she is protective she is pretty fierce and scary...seems much bigger than her real size..though she is more bluff and posture than anything

She is very smart but not in a trainable sort of way...independent..follows basic obedience commands around 80% of the time...but can figure out things by herself


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm a bit lost on the term "natural". Domestication is not "natural" in my opinion.

To be natural "we" (humans) would not in charge of the selecting which dogs survive to reproduce. Although with village dogs humans don't select a breeding pair, it is human actions that decide which dog survives and which dog simply can not savvy the activities of human civilization. A village dog may be killed for chasing livestock, by a vehicle, etc. Natural selection processes like disease play a role, but it is a minor one. So, by nature of the definition, domestication is not natural but is influenced very strongly by humans and their activities. 

"Natural selection" is not heavily human influenced.

So there is no such thing as a natural dog because anything domesticated- not just tamed- is not natural. It is a human creation. By that definition, humans are natural, but what we do to the natural world is not.


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I think that it is absolutely understandable that nature would find a niche to capitalize off of humans and their activities/byproducts. This is separate from an argument of influences due to directed domestication/ownership of dogs.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

It seams to me that when left to their own ferrel breeding populations dog tend to eventually start looking like this:Google Image Result for http://www.californiacarolinadogs.com/update8/award_new.jpg

You notice that it also resembles this:Redirect Notice

(Sorry for the links. could not get the copy and past to work for me).

Here in NC I have seen many many of these yellow / tan mutt dogs roaming the streets. All of them look like they just whelped a litter.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

so given complete mongrelisation you get a mal.


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

robk said:


> It seams to me that when left to their own ferrel breeding populations dog tend to eventually start looking like this:Google Image Result for http://www.californiacarolinadogs.com/update8/award_new.jpg
> 
> Yep, looks like that medium sized brown dog I alluded to in my earlier post.


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Ocean said:


> that's my sister's African village dog...30 lbs, brown all over with uneven short white socks...when she is protective she is pretty fierce and scary...seems much bigger than her real size..though she is more bluff and posture than anything
> 
> She is very smart but not in a trainable sort of way...independent..follows basic obedience commands around 80% of the time...but can figure out things by herself


I am not surprised! I have actually spent a lot of time in rural villages in West Africa and since I am a dog person, I always take note of attitudes towards dogs and dog behavior. 

Where I was in Africa, dogs were a part of everyday life but not at all like the way people in the United States see it. 

Dogs are free roaming and I never met one dog in the villages that had been spayed/neutered or vaccinated. Ownership of dogs was fungible... and dogs were free to roam. 

With that said, people deep in "the bush" valued dogs that alerted to the approach of strangers and the dogs who showed a natural ability to serve that function were given more incentives to stay around than others.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I think a "natural dog" is a contradiction in terms.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

LifeofRiley said:


> I have always heard that if dogs were left to their own devices in terms of surviving and breeding you would find that within a shockingly few generations that the "natural dog" is a medium sized brown dog.
> 
> Temperament unknown but no doubt it would be resourceful and smart because these studies are based off of what happens with street dogs around the world.


Many years ago there was an article in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN about this, wish I could recall more about it, but basically it said what you did, that dogs would revert back to an animal similar to what you described.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Gretchen said:


> Thanks for the info about this breed. It's name is almost the same as my maiden name, I'm 1/2 Czech. So if I ever get a yard, I should have a GSD for my German 1st name and a Vlcak for my last. Yes, silly.
> 
> Our family did look up the Indian dog, and were actually thinking of getting one but the breeders were to far for us to travel.


A Vlcak is essentially a GSD bred to look like a Carpathian wolf. Don't think you'll be acquiring a wolf, because you'll wind up being disappointed! Its a domestic dog that simply happens to look like a wolf. And my personal view is that wolves are beautiful and wild animals that belong in the wild. They were never meant to be owned by man. You can own a dog but you can never own a wolf.


----------



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

The simpsons, my little santa.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Pariah dogs like Dingoes, New Guinea Singing Dogs, Carolina Dogs, American Indian Dogs and Canaan Dogs - are primitive dogs that have not been extensively altered by man. They are on the borderline between a wolf and a fully domesticated dog. These dogs represent the ancestral form of Canis Lupus Familiaris. 

I don't recommend people get a dog because they want a pet wolf. It doesn't work that way and a dog's importance isn't its appearance; its in its utility to humans. Its that utility that rightfully earned the dog its place as "man's best friend." And it took thousands of years for dogs to become as close to people as they have. Above all, its more than likely they chose us in the first place rather our choosing them as most humans don't like and fear wolves even today.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

x11 said:


> so given complete mongrelisation you get a mal.


Thats a funny observation.


----------



## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Why does the OP ask the question then correct every response? If the OP knows the answer then why ask the question?
All dogs are 'natural', they occur in nature as a result of a natural act.
They are not 'natural' to the degree that humans have tampered with natural selection (i.e. culling or choosing which dogs mate)


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

x11 said:


> so given complete mongrelisation you get a mal.


absolutely not. These dogs are nowhere near comparable to a Malinois.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> absolutely not. These dogs are nowhere near comparable to a Malinois.


Tiss tiss, just a bit of Mal verses GSD humor.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

People at my cub (we have several mals) sit and crack Mal verses GSD jokes non stop.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

But come to think of it, Mals are known to have Generally better health than GSDs and there seems to be less focus on pedigrees so maybe there is some relation between Mals and a more natural dog.


----------



## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Can't get the song Natural Woman by Aretha out of my head


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

From the build and what they are capable of, I agree. They seem to be the more natural dog. As for nerves... from my understanding, some are a little iffy.


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

I used to joke with the helper from a previous club that I will never get a Mal because they look like street dogs....Traveling around in tropical countries I do find more Mals being used now as security dogs partly because people think they handle the heat better than GSDs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ocean thanks for the interesting article about the African village dogs. I forwarded it to a friend of mine who was in on the genomic studies. Quite the experience for your sister .
You said--
"Five to six dogs from the neighborhood would just decide to go with the hunters. The hunters did not decide which dogs to take, the dogs decided themselves. My sister never went along on hunting forays so she did not know exactly how the dogs worked with the hunters. Some dogs would develop a reputation in the village as being good hunters, and the men appreciated it when these would decide to go with them. Some hunters developed some type of bond with a favorite hunting dog so these favored dogs would be fed better and be shooed away less"

that is a pretty good picture of the symbiotic relationship early man and early dog must have had.


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

carmspack said:


> Ocean thanks for the interesting article about the African village dogs.
> 
> that is a pretty good picture of the symbiotic relationship early man and early dog must have had.


you're welcome carmspack. I was talking to her again just now about her African village dog experiences. She said there was a saying in the village, "Men only fight over two things. Women and the ownership of good hunting dogs." She knew of two villagers who had a serious fight over the ownership of a good hunting dog.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ocean , is your sister's "village" dog still living?

If she did a DNA swab what do you think the report would say.

Has she , or would she consider providing DNA if someone in the field were interested ?


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Yes. I would bet she is not genetically closely related to western breeds of dogs. In fact, I wondered whether my GSDs might not even consider her a dog but another type of animal. She has a distinctly different body odor from the shepherds, and her saliva smells and tastes differently too (I know I know I let my family dogs kiss me on the lips all the time LOL). Sure, PM me if any researchers are seriously interested in getting a DNA swab. I'm curious myself.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ocean -- just by chance my friend paid a visit to "market" today . Told him about the African Village Dog and he is very excited in doing a gene sequence on the dog .
We hope to include some other "natural" dogs to see if there are common denominators .


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I really do not understand the idea of using "wolf" to improve "dog" . 
The wolf DNA as part of the dog genome is from a Eurasian red wolf whose behaviour was/ is more coyote like living close to the fringes of human society.
In a deliberate creation of "dog" the selection was always for attributes which were not wolf . The animals chose to exist in a symbiotic beneficial relationship . This was encouraged through generations.

Why bring in something with 50 to 60 years separation and expect it not to have a residual effect when developing mankind tried to eliminate those things for 15,000 years.

dogs have an interested in reading and understanding our language and emotions . The dog will look you in the eye , try to read you, guess what you want. If you look somewhere , shift your gaze, likely your dog will look to the point also. A wolf would have no interest.
My friend pointed out that there is a brain difference for language among the primates. Humans and Binobos each have an area in the brain for "language" . Chimpanzee's do not have this . 

If I were to improve dog it would be with other dog . 

so the genetic sequencing is going to be interesting

forgot to add this http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-decoded.html


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

carmspack said:


> I really do not understand the idea of using "wolf" to improve "dog" .
> The wolf DNA as part of the dog genome is from a Eurasian red wolf whose behaviour was/ is more coyote like living close to the fringes of human society.
> In a deliberate creation of "dog" the selection was always for attributes which were not wolf . The animals chose to exist in a symbiotic beneficial relationship . This was encouraged through generations.
> 
> ...


Wolves CAN be tamed and they do respond to training and commands. But much more work is required to obtain from them the same degree of reliability seen in a dog. If you have in mind the Czech Vlcak, the aim was to infuse the German Shepherd Dog with the wolf's tough weatherproof coat, fearlessness and stamina. As a cross breeding experiment, it created a new breed of dog that more than matched its creators' expectations. Nature sometimes gives to the dog new qualities that man can find very useful.


----------



## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

NormanF said:


> Wolves CAN be tamed and they do respond to training and commands. But much more work is required to obtain from them the same degree of reliability seen in a dog. If you have in mind the Czech Vlcak, the aim was to infuse the German Shepherd Dog with the wolf's tough weatherproof coat, fearlessness and stamina. As a cross breeding experiment, it created a new breed of dog that more than matched its creators' expectations. Nature sometimes gives to the dog new qualities that man can find very useful.


Does the Vlcak also have the canine's evolved interest and loyalty to humans, including the ability to read body language and gestures?
Really would like to know because it sounds like an interesting breed.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Pooky44 said:


> Does the Vlcak also have the canine's evolved interest and loyalty to humans, including the ability to read body language and gestures?
> Really would like to know because it sounds like an interesting breed.


The Czech Vlcak is several generations removed from the original GSD X Carpathian Wolf hybrid. Its a domestic dog breed with the gentle domestic dog temperament. It only looks like a Carpathian Wolf. And of course, the GSD heritage is there also!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

many dogs have weatherproof coats , including the GSD .
stamina I'll grant you that .
I'll even give you physical strength which you have not mentioned.
fearless . No. 
The Wolf is shy in the way that it will avoid human contact.
They are specialist predators. 
Coyotes are generalists .
Coyotes are integrating into our habitats , chipping away at the illusion of civilization. A coyote in downtown New York, in the subdivisions , in my yard where I have three sets which visit regularly , "the teenager" "the undertakers" and the "big sinister". No fear , even when I hurled a bucket at the only one that worries me because his behaviour is not typical .

This ability to be comfortable and exploit human proximity is what is allowing the coyote and sub-species , to be big winners . Meanwhile the wolf who is incompatible with the coyote is driven further and further away.


I have sat down with an entire litter of cubs -- many generations with human contact . I knew the owner through a common interest, GSD . Having been an escapee of communist DDR , we had many discussions on dogs there and had common contacts . My male Kilo was used a few times in his breeding program. This place is local and Jungle Cat World . One summer my son was there almost every day , so I would take young pups to socialize , monitor their response . I have a picture of a 9 or 10 month grey GSD beside a young wolf -- same size , colour , structure. That is where the similarity ends.
There are Gray and Artic wolves on site.
Tame and domestic are not the same thing. 
Tame - can change with lightning fast speed.





 not in a million billion years would I do this. 

As said before it took 15 to 20 thousand years to develop a canine animal "dog" that would be useful and willing , voluntarily willing , to join forces for mutual benefit . Symbiotic.

I was not referring to the Vlcak , but let's look Breed history Ceskoslovenský Vlcak

same problems as any registered breed. 
same emphasis on physical aspect " could be devoted to establish the morphological characteristics of this new breed"

The last cross was as late as 1983 . That would have been the generation that my friend who dealt with them at Pohranicni Straze experienced and has in picture .

Just generally wolf dog crosses are so lost , being neither , either.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

We have a loan wolf on Ft.Drum. A friend of mine crossed paths with him three times. People insisted it was a Coyote but it's way too big for an actual Coyote. 

She was able to take a picture and showed it to me. It's definitely a wolf and he's doing very well on Ft.Drum. Especially with all the Deer, Turkeys and stray animals, he's got tons of food. She saw him outside of Drum too. 

We have a pack of Coyotes right outside our neighborhoods. We are on the edge of the City and every night, around midnight or one in the morning they start howling and come pretty close. They have not gone through the trash yet. If they would, our dogs would probably go ballistic.
Actually, at least twice per night MaDeuce is going ballistic and even if I look, there is nothing out there. Wouldn't be surprised if it was a Coyote.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

from the article breed history of the Vlcak " A new crossbreeding at the Libejovice kennel, between the German shepherd *Bojar von Schottenhof* and the she-wolf *Lejdi* (from Hluboka zoo) was therefore used to reduce inbreeding of the herd"

here is Bojar Schotterhof V Bojar vom Schotterhof

I will take Bojar any day! - 



"The biggest issue there has been getting them to maintain grip on a protection sleeve" and " so how do we do a retrieve ? Most CSV’s are not natural retrievers. They do not have this type of drive or instinct hard wired in their system. So we must "synthesize" or cause emulation of the desired behavior." taken from A Sample Approach to Training with Czechoslovakian Wolfdog | wolfdog.org that looks like a lot of work , with the insecurity of never quite having it down pat , fragile at best .


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , there is a larger coyote -- our properties , neighbour , house across the street were part of a study looking into the "highways" that the local coyotes use to visit different locations. These were biologists and Dr Suzuki . There is a large one. Very large . still a coyote . They do not live in the same area - wolfs and coyotes hate each other , coyotes will drive them out .

This is an excellent book Eastern coyote: the story of its success - G. R. Parker - Google Books

The eastern coyote which has been moving across the continent to the north east part of the study.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

carmspack said:


> from the article breed history of the Vlcak " A new crossbreeding at the Libejovice kennel, between the German shepherd *Bojar von Schottenhof* and the she-wolf *Lejdi* (from Hluboka zoo) was therefore used to reduce inbreeding of the herd"
> 
> here is Bojar Schotterhof V Bojar vom Schotterhof
> 
> ...


They need more work than a GSD! But you can get good results with them and the Czech Army found them suitable for all required tasks for which it needed a working dog.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Carmen, there is a difference between a coyote amd a wolf. We dont live on Drum. Drum is huge. We live in the City. On the other side of the city. Our pack is on the outskirts of the City, wheras the Wolf seems to be on Drum. She spotted him three times and took a picture. Its not a Coyote. Could be one of those coyote mixes, there are stray dogs on Drum, especially since dog control no longer picks up strays, thanks to the Sequester...

Anyhow, the ear set, coloring...height and weight, resembled more a wolf rather than a coyote. It must have been at least 90 pounds. But on Drum there is tons of food available for a predator. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

enjoyed a surprise visit from my geneticist research friend . Asked him about the future or interest in doing the genetics test on a sample of the Native American "Song Dog" , the native African village dog belonging to a forum members relative and a sampling of GSD -- to compare . 
He said everyone he has mentioned it to is keenly interested. Current research that he was working on is winding up, the under-grads can be then dedicated , and there is a large vet (genetics) symposium happening in Sept where members of his "lab" , vet division , will be attending.

then.... by luck , taking some articles to the Sally Ann for donation , I browse through the book section and I find a book "Innocent Killers" by Hugo and Jane van Lawick-Goodall (Jane Goodall) a fascinating journey through the worlds of the hyena, the jackal and the wild dog . 1972.


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

There is some very interesting work being done on this topic. You can learn more about it at this site: Adam Boyko Laboratory

Be sure to read the links in the “Our Work in the News” section.

Now, just for the cuteness factor… I will post a picture of village puppies from my own (non dog-related) fieldwork in African villages.







[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is what a lot of the "mutts" looked like when I was a kid -- these were the gen-u-wine Heinz 57 "street dogs" that accompanied us , and my gsd Asta , as we scrambled like urchins in the ravines and built fires to roast marshmallows ---

now "mutts" are not accidents they are purpose bred designer cutesy name , conversation starters.
=
thanks for the picture -- here you can see a "type"

interesting that this is coming up as a topic as I did have guests visiting at the market and the American Indian dog came up in conversation. This was in regard to "training" . The dogs and people had a useful , mutually beneficial relationship . No clicker training , no ball play -- dogs that were intuitive and useful were supported. Dogs that had their own agenda where fringe, culled as in no further promotion.


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Carmen, like you, I think it so interesting to look at village dogs. While it has never been the object of my studies, the fact that I love dogs has always led to me taking a keen interest in the behaviors of dogs in any given population as well as the cultural views on dogs. 

I have spent a lot of time in different parts of the world. I have definitely seen the dark side of a typical village/street dog's life. Yet, I still find it fascinating to look at the behaviors and temperaments that make some dogs more likely to succeed even in the very worst of situations.

Additionally, I think it is great that some scientists are trying to learn more about canine genetics by looking at village dogs.

Love this thread! Thanks for starting it!


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Hi Carmen,

As you enjoyed the first photo, I will post a few others. These are from a different village but within the same general area. The dog and pups here are more representative of the medium sized brown dog I have seen around the world in similar settings.








[/URL][/IMG]

[URL=http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/LifeoR1ley/media/Morevillagepups-eating.jpg.html]
[IMG]http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x472/LifeoR1ley/Morevillagepups-eating.jpg[/URL][/IMG]








[/URL][/IMG]


----------

