# Different methods, tools and equipment



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Lots of arguments on here all the time about the best, and worst, ways to do things. But something that never gets discussed is the people behind all that. We endlessly debate and state that every dog is different and people need to train the dog in front of them. That's all good but the other end of the leash is part of that as well. What works well for me may not work for you.
A good example. I was a KMODT student initially. That was just how dogs were trained in my world, especially working dogs. And I like Koehler's theory. Your dog has a right to know that it's actions have consequences. And nagging, ineffective corrections are in fact cruel. I like his methods in that they are effective and direct, no messing around. 
BUT
His methods often oppose my nature so although I know the method it is not as effective for me because I subconsciously avoid it. Not because it's cruel or harsh but because I don't like rigid, regimented things. I have a hard time following a plan.
But his method for teaching heel I use all the time! It's brilliant, and it works. 
So what works for you and what doesn't?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

One thing that a lot of people here love that I don’t is NILIF. I’ve never been one to add a bunch of rules and requirements to interactions with my dog. I prefer a simple philosophy of things my dig likes that I want to continue get rewarded, things I don’t want get corrections of some kind, and things I don’t care about don’t get anything. I teach my dogs in general to respect certain boundaries with me. I don’t care if they choose to lay on the couch. If I say they need to get down, they absolutely need to get down. I think it may be good for someone who doesn’t have any structure for their dogs, but I don’t think it fits the way I want to live with mine.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Everything works! Any training method that has been practiced by enough people to be called a method, works if applied properly. You bring up an interesting point that the method must fit the whole picture. Not only the personality of the dog and handler, but also the physical limitations, time and space constraints, available equipment, etc...

I have my favorite ways of training the kind of dog I like to train, particularly when I'm not in a hurry. It mostly looks like playing games with the occasional firm correction. I teach leash pressure on a flat collar and graduate to a prong, then teach an informal heel to walk in busy places off leash. I train recall and fetch like crazy because they are important to life and the way I train. I use thrown toy rewards a lot. I marker train with verbal markers and a clicker. I lure and fade like a lot of trainers. I use 100% reinforcement at first and fade to intermittent rewards asap.

I also approach training as an all day thing. I don't do formal sessions. I just train when I see an opportunity.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I actively encourage idiocy. So what works for me isn't likely to work for others. I do a lot of luring. But basically I ignore what I don't like and reward what I like. Dog brains are pretty simple, this gets me stuff and this doesn't.
I have had some hard dogs, never used a prong. Softest dog I ever owned needed one. Everyone says they don't work on soft dogs, everyone says don't use for reactive dogs. 
Sometimes it pays not to listen to everyone.
I believe that the best trainers use what works for a dog. But I also believe that if I handed 6 people Shadows leash I would get 6 very different responses.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

Funny story, I ran into the local dog trainer (R+) only and we had a bit of chat. I got some free advice 

Anyway, my dogs were completely different around him. My ACD/beagle reactive mess was jumping on him at first sight. He's only ever jumped on me thrice in three years. Juno gave him her best sits with the best eye contact with nor verbal commands. It was kind of embarrassing. 

I learned to reward my dogs with affection, which does not work for my GSD at all. When she's working (fetching, carrying etc), she doesn't want her ears petted at all. So I had to abandon that theory for her.

@Sabis mom You're probably right about Shadow and the six people. 

I also do not like correcting my dogs (I do correct them, but I don't like it at all), so I try to avoid situations where they can ignore my commands, which means that maybe they do not get as much proofing as they need. I often wonder... what would our dogs say about our training methods?


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

I use only R+ for obedience.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I agree with some points that were made in this great post...but of course, not all. I never have used NILIF, or a prong collar, and I think most things other than correctly responding to leash pressure should be taught off leash.

I believe the way people are taught to think about the "socialization window" is all wrong!
I taught my dog the performance finish pivot without using a target (I just didn't have that much patience!).

I absolutely love to have encountered many of the dog v dog issues that people complain about with uncontrolled off leash dogs, both inside and outside of dog parks (most problematic issues were outside), and I used those incidents to show and shape my dog's reaction. 

On leash, as I've said before, I love to walk by and practice obedience next to a fence with barking snarling dogs, preferring cyclone over privacy type fencing. 

I've grown much softer in my methods over the years, and I believe I am more effective. 

That being said, different dogs require different approaches - both tools and methodologies. I try to use minimal punishment, and lots of luring and rewarding and praise.

We used negative punishment almost exclusively to resolve problem behaviors with hunting dogs back in the day, but very little on my current GSD and Chihuahua, or any of the other dogs I have worked with for several years.

I strongly agree that most any method, used enough by trainers to be accepted as such, will likely work if/when applied consistently. 

I love reading about different methods and hearing how people think about and apply various tools in response to a training goal or situation, so keep them coming!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> A good example. I was a KMODT student initially. That was just how dogs were trained in my world, especially working dogs. And I like Koehler's theory. Your dog has a right to know that it's actions have consequences. And nagging, ineffective corrections are in fact cruel. I like his methods in that they are effective and direct, no messing around.
> BUT
> His methods often oppose my nature so although I know the method it is not as effective for me because I subconsciously avoid it. Not because it's cruel or harsh but because I don't like rigid, regimented things. I have a hard time following a plan.
> But his method for teaching heel I use all the time! It's brilliant, and it works.
> So what works for you and what doesn't?


I think Koehler's approaches to training go beyond harsh and cruel and have a sadistic flavor to them. For example, for hole digging he says, "If you come home and find your dog has dug a hole, fill the hole brimful of water. With the training collar and leash, bring the dog to the hole and shove his nose into the water; hold him there until he is sure he's drowning."
His whole approach is based on positive punishment and negative reinforcement only which decreases the odds of teaching a dog how to learn while increasing conflict, damaging the handler-dog relationship, and teaching the dog primarily how to avoid behaviors. Any results reinforce the handler's use of punishment and negative reinforcement which again, is far less than desirable IMO. I strive to train by maximizing effectiveness and minimizing conflict. His writing of his philosophy smacks of pathology to me. His back cover on Guard Dog Training refers to his writing as candid and jolting and I think his emphasis is in all the wrong places. Corrections are for when a dog has learned a behavior via teaching the behavior through numerous repetitions and the dog is disobedient, not punishing a dog for a behavior he hasn't even learned.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

This was from a 1992 article.
The Koehlers, however, disparagingly call these relative upstarts "wincers" and "cookie people" - for their reliance on food treats to entice the dogs to behave - and contend they are hurting, not helping, dogs by not fully training them.
"They are taking people's money and telling people what they want to hear," said **** Koehler, who has been in charge of the family-owned training center in Ontario, Calif., since his father, Bill Koehler, retired two years ago. "But you get 'kind of' training - a dog that kind of sits, kind of stays and kind of comes when it's called."
I am not a +only trainer. I use all four pillars of operant learning theory. My dog, in no way, kind of sits, stays or comes and I have had to use very little compulsion and no severe compulsion.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I will not debate Koehlers methods with someone who has clearly never used them.
@Chip Blasiole you quoted a segment on behaviour modification, not training. 
I always urge folks to understand that when that text was written the penalty for being a bad dog was most commonly a bullet. Methods to correct issues were of necessity quick and effective. 
KMODT is still widely used today. 
@tim_s_adams I had never used a prong either, until I I found a dog that needed one. Never say never my friend. I also have softened as I age but I can't say it's more effective, just different. And I definitely notice a softening in the average dog so that must be taken into account as well. Training encompasses both ends of the leash. I think the average owner today would be over their heads with even the farm mutts from my childhood.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Call it training or behavior modification, it is the same. You are teaching your dog a change in behavior. I'll use his approach to "training" heeling. Without any previous understanding of the behavior, he advocates quickly turning in the opposite direction if the dog is forging, having the handler, "turn into him in such a way that your turning step will convincingly thrust, not experimentally probe, your knee or leg into the dog, preferably between his shoulder and his nose." His approach is like teaching a child to not touch a hot stove by placing the child's hand on the burner.His approach is abusive and has zero to do with nurturing and respecting dogs. The human/canine relationship is unique. Training should strengthen a bond and enhance the relationship. Just because something is widely used doesn't mean it has value and where is it widely used? Heroin is widely used. Were there more "bad" dogs in the past that were shot or have training approaches evolved?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Here a review of one of his books.
The book speaks for itself:
The Koehler method for stopping a dog from barking: "equip yourself with a man's leather belt or strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good tanning. Yup--we're going to strike him. Real hard. . . . lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter end." (pp. 168-169)
The Koehler method for stopping a dog from digging: "fill the hole to its brim with water. . . . bring the dog to the hole and shove his nose into the water; hold him there until he is sure he's drowning. . . . fill the hole with water and repeat the experience the next day, whether the dog digs any more or not." (pp. 178-179)
The Koehler method for stopping a dog from chewing: "select a piece of the material he has chewed . . . and place it well back, crossways, in his mouth. Use a strip of adhesive tape to wrap the muzzle securely in front of the chewed material, so that no amount of gagging and clawing can force it from his mouth. Perhaps you are wondering if these frantic efforts to rid himself of the material will cause the dog to scratch himself painfully. Yup. They surely will." (p. 166).
The Koehler method for stopping predatory behavior: "Obtain a cull chicken . . . Fasten a few coils of the fence charger's live wire to one of the chicken's legs, tie the legs together . . . it takes a lot of electricity to even make a chicken tingle, so feel no compunctions when you turn on the six-volt charger. . . odds are that your astounded dog will drown out the chicken." (p. 182)
The Koehler method for stopping a dog from fighting with other dogs: "equip [yourself] with a piece of rubber hose about 16 inches in length and one and a half inches in diameter. . . . Into this hose . . . slide an equal length of wooden dowling . . . At the first growl or aggressive move the hose is brought down across the middle of his muzzle" (pp. 38, 176)
The Koehler method for stopping leash grabbing by the dog: "Lock both hands onto the leash . . . and lift straight up. . . . `Clear off the ground?' you ask? Yup--until he longs so fervently for Mother Earth that he'd hardly invite another `lifting' by grabbing the leash again." (pp. 35-36)
A few more details from Koehler on how to hang a dog: "The dog is suspended in midair. . . . When finally it is obvious that he is physically incapable of expressing his resentment and is lowered to the ground, he will probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll over on his side. The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued, on his side is not pleasant, but do not let it alarm you. I have dealt with hundreds of these" (p. 37).
Some years ago, a Chicago-area woman decided to use the Koehler method to train her very young son. She repeatedly hung him, letting him down before death occurred. Eventually she tired of the game, strung him up, told him good-bye, and didn't let him down. Did this woman read Koehler's book? Did she see dogs being hung Koehler fashion? I don't know. One has to wonder.
Am I saying that Koehler trainers are child abusers? No. What I am saying is very simple:
Cruelty begets cruelty.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Without any previous understanding of the


Again, you have never used his method.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Moving on, interested in various methods and equipment that people have used that work or don't work. 
Side note. My very first patrol dog was nicknamed the rookie killer. He was well known for coming up the leash at new handlers. He was neither small nor gentle. Deliberately used to weed out weak handlers. He got the side of my fist just below his eyes once and only once. We had a long and productive relationship, that involved sharing cheezies and singing along with the radio all night. His howl was pitch perfect!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You don't know what methods I have used. Maybe your dog was nicknamed rookie killer because he was being trained with poor training by poor handlers. Being a good handler has little to do with strength.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You don't know what methods I have used. Maybe your dog was nicknamed rookie killer because he was being trained with poor training by poor handlers. Being a good handler has little to do with strength.


Lol. You are funny.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Sabis mom,uh oh!Bringing up Koehler is always going to produce visceral reactions from people. The four quadrants of learning theory are how people and animals learn. I agree with Chip that Koehler puts way too much emphasis on the positive punishment quadrant. It's not balanced.
Moving on to other methods and tools is a good idea.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> @Sabis mom,uh oh!Bringing up Koehler is always going to produce visceral reactions from people. The four quadrants of learning theory are how people and animals learn. I agree with Chip that Koehler puts way too much emphasis on the positive punishment quadrant. It's not balanced.
> Moving on to other methods and tools is a good idea.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I am very much in the camp of learning a thing before you decide it's a problem. 
There is a reason hearsay is not allowed in court.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

Disclaimer: I am a certified “Training Without Conflict (TWC)” trainer under Ivan Balabanov’s system.

My training system now is very heavily influenced by TWC. I’ve always been a balanced trainer but was heavy on +R and –P via treat-training. Now I lean a lot more towards training via games (Ivan’s “Chase and Catch” and/or “Possession game”). His structured games have been a game changer for me, my IGP dog, our client dogs, and our foster dogs. 

We’ve had a few foster dogs that were fearful of people, would’ve had a hard time getting them adopted. We got them addicted to play, and use games to introduce them to potential adopters, worked amazing well. 

We still use treats, usually to jump start a new dog that shows no desire to chase a ball or bite a tug, but our focus is to eventually teach him/her how to play games.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I am very much in the camp of learning a thing before you decide it's a problem.
> There is a reason hearsay is not allowed in court.


Then you might be interested in learning about some of the pitfalls of punishment procedures. Punishment is clearly aversive for the dog. The results are frequently setting specific. It does nothing to reinforce desirable competing behaviors. He mentions nothing about using strong prompts in order to increase the likelihood that a desirable alternative behavior will occur because be doesn't bother reinforcing any desirable alternative behaviors. With punishment, a goal should be to minimize the causes of the response to be punished, but Koehler's approach doesn't allow for that because the cause of the response is that the dog hasn't been taught the behavior. He has only been punished for not displaying the correct behavior. With punishment, another goal should be to identify and eliminate many or all of the stimuli controlling the undesirable behavior, and again, that is not possible because the dog has not been taught a desirable behavior as he is only punished for displaying an undesirable behavior. Even if you praise a dog after using Koehler's punishment first approach, a punisher should never be paired with positive reinforcement following the undesirable behavior, but he doesn't really advocate doing so, even though many people will use that approach. A punisher should be presented immediately following every instance of the behavior to be decreased. How does that work when you come home and nearly drown your dog in a hole full of water when he dug the hole several hours earlier? The person doing the punishment should be associated with a lot of positive reinforcement for alternative behaviors so that the handler does not become a conditioned punisher, which he never writes about. Think about your example of the "rookie killer." Aggression has been clearly documented as a side effect of punishment. Punishment becomes very reinforcing to the punisher so that punishment tends to be increasingly used.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Within reason: I don't freak out about "squashing" drive anymore. I really don't enjoy living with feral animals that don't respect my physical self or my house, so I set limits and basic rules for puppies.

I was given some pretty dire warnings years ago, but at this point I don't subscribe to the notion that you will irreversibly ruin a nice working puppy by requiring (REASONABLE) manners. 

(ETA: I'm not commenting on Koehler or anyone in particular, mine is a standalone comment).


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Koehler is not about setting limits and having basic rules. It is about taking a dog with no training and punishing the dog for not performing a behavior he hasn't learned.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I am very much in the camp of learning a thing before you decide it's a problem.
> There is a reason hearsay is not allowed in court.


Lol!So many things are hearsay and theory until they are personally experienced,definitely agreeI have actually used the method you cited for heeling but modified to be heavy on the reward.Not any more though.Basically I attempt to program the dog that he will be blissfully happy when he does what I tell him. Compulsion is only for deliberate wrong choices. Specifically with GSDs, in hindsight after a wrong choice was made, 9 times out of 10 it was because of something stupid that I did.They are so sensitive to our nonverbal cues.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Then you might be interested in learning about some of the pitfalls of punishment procedures. Punishment is clearly aversive for the dog. The results are frequently setting specific. It does nothing to reinforce desirable competing behaviors. He mentions nothing about using strong prompts in order to increase the likelihood that a desirable alternative behavior will occur because be doesn't bother reinforcing any desirable alternative behaviors. With punishment, a goal should be to minimize the causes of the response to be punished, but Koehler's approach doesn't allow for that because the cause of the response is that the dog hasn't been taught the behavior. He has only been punished for not displaying the correct behavior. With punishment, another goal should be to identify and eliminate many or all of the stimuli controlling the undesirable behavior, and again, that is not possible because the dog has not been taught a desirable behavior as he is only punished for displaying an undesirable behavior. Even if you praise a dog after using Koehler's punishment first approach, a punisher should never be paired with positive reinforcement following the undesirable behavior, but he doesn't really advocate doing so, even though many people will use that approach. A punisher should be presented immediately following every instance of the behavior to be decreased. How does that work when you come home and nearly drown your dog in a hole full of water when he dug the hole several hours earlier? The person doing the punishment should be associated with a lot of positive reinforcement for alternative behaviors so that the handler does not become a conditioned punisher, which he never writes about. Think about your example of the "rookie killer." Aggression has been clearly documented as a side effect of punishment. Punishment becomes very reinforcing to the punisher so that punishment tends to be increasingly used.


The dog I handled came up the leash at me in response to being told to heel. No punishment involved. He did it to everyone because he was a jerk and knew he could. He never did it to people he knew, and never did it to me again.
KMODT was designed and meant to be used in its entirety, by the time you get to turning into the dog it already understands the desired behavior. This is how I know you haven't used it.
Now, why don't we let the actual discussion continue. I've watched your training videos.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It would be a good time to talk about other methods and tools besides Koehler.Other trainers that are admired?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> It would be a good time to talk about other methods and tools besides Koehler.Other trainers that are admired?


I agree! I keep trying.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

I really like Michael Ellis. I like how cohesive his training theory is. It makes a lot of sense to me. I have a few of his videos. 

I started training my ACD/beagle rescue with a very old fashioned trainer. Reward was petting, and it worked to some degree. I didn't know any better. He was better than PetSmart, where I started, for sure, but I kept working the dog and working him without really understanding why I was supposed to do what I was doing. The WHY is important to me, I have to know why I am doing something. That trainer could be a bit bad tempered, but I stuck around because I wanted to learn. He also did not like new methods (so no play rewards, no food rewards, no e collar).

With my GSD, I started to use the markers "yes" and "good", which really helped her understand my commands. 

Like @San I have studied the Ivan Balabanov method of play, and my ACD/beagle rescue now is starting to play. He would play once a month, now he's waiting for me to put the GSD away so we can play. But I am not very experienced in dog training.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Check out Ivan Balabanov on YouTube. He's got some fantastic monologues on theory. I'm trying to get into his school.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I’m definitely a big fan of Michael Ellis. Most of his videos on YouTube are theory. Ivan is obviously pretty good at what he does.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I teach leash pressure on a flat collar and graduate to a prong, then teach an informal heel to walk in busy places off leash.


I know it depends on the dog, but at what age do you generally start proofing with a prong collar?

Also, why do you prefer using a prong collar versus an e collar during this stage of your training?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> I know it depends on the dog, but at what age do you generally start proofing with a prong collar?
> 
> Also, why do you prefer using a prong collar versus an e collar during this stage of your training?


Age is less important than nerve. I had a prong on Valor to start introducing him to pressure at 4.5 months. Some dogs never get a prong or e-collar. It's not about compulsion as much as pressure for me if I expect the dog to fight for real. I will apply pressure while holding a stay before a reward to acclimate the dog to pressure. If it is manners I'm after, then I will proceed in the way that the dog prefers.

So it really depends on the dog. If I have to put an age on it, I'd say 6-7 months if you are doing pop corrections. Younger with leash pressure type stuff if you can read a dog and not just follow a predetermined training plan.

I use an e-collar with Valor as well. He's just on vibration with 100% reward schedule because I'm building habits. I have an e-fence and I want the vibration to hold a lot of currency before there is a correction.

I don't think I prefer a prong over an e-collar. It depends on the dog and the relationship. A leash and prong is more personal to the dog so if the dog is nervy or goes into avoidance, I'll go to the e-collar. If the dog is strong, I tend to use a prong for loose leash walking because it's less to manage for me lol. Once the walking in public habit is instilled, I'll go off leash and switch to the e-collar to proof it.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> I really like Michael Ellis. I like how cohesive his training theory is. *It makes a lot of sense to me.* I have a few of his videos.


Another good point, some methods or theories just don't make sense to some people for whatever reason, and if it isn't making sense to someone they are unlikely to be able to effectively make use of them.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Generally speaking, I use prong, e-collars, slip leads, clickers, food, toys, all kinds of things. Depends on the dog and what I’m trying to accomplish. I’m a big believer in NILIF. I find it super easy and useful. Generally training for me looks like this 
+R -P Clicker and food mostly
+R -P -R Clicker, Food e-collar or leash pressure
+R -P -R +P same as above but slightly different approach with them.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

It's interesting how many people use prongs and e collars. 
In general I work almost entirely with a flat collar. Any thoughts on that?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

For me it’s mostly for my clients. I can do a lot with out them, but my clients can’t. They need those tools to continue on with their dogs. After all, if they really knew how to communicate to their dogs, they would’nt have hired me in the first place .

with my own dogs, I use them for proofing, increasing speed, bringing out aggression, and so on. So many different ways to use each tool. Too many think they’re just correction devices. That’s just a very small fraction of how they’re used.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I already said the softest dog I owned was the one I used a prong on. It is also apparently not a good tool for reactivity but for us it proved to be the most effective, cleanest method to communicate. I really don't see it as a correction, in her case more of a clean interrupter to open the channel back up.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I also should point out that the prong hangs, unused for the most part, by the door abandoned and unneeded. I find all to often people get used to relying on tools and forget all about the training.
My poor dogs have always served as guinea pigs for the various fads of training that have come and gone. My collection consists of a halti, and it's various cousins, all manner of front clip harnesses, a variety of pressure harnesses and a vast assortment of collars. 
Being a horse woman the halti theory made a huge amount of sense to me. I think they are a brilliant tool that has a real use for smaller/weaker persons with larger dogs provided that the larger dogs fall into the category of unaware of their own strength and are not the rodeo star type because damage to the neck is a real concern. 
Long before front clip harnesses were all the rage I used to loop a leash across a dogs chest and let it sit right across the top of their legs to remind the determined ones not to pull. It is again something I adapted from my horse days. Animals don't generally like things across their legs, we used to put ropes across the back legs of kickers while grooming.
That said I have yet to find a front clip harness that I find useful.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@Sabis mom 
I went to see the old fashioned trainer after Titus my rescue broke free. The buckle on his collar snapped open and he ran 100 m down the road to bite another dog. I don't know how badly because after I managed to contain my dog, the other dog and owner had disappeared and I was not able to apologize etc. 

The trainer recommended a prong, so that is what I used. The pulling ceased immediately. In retrospect, I think it was the wrong tool for Titus. He is very sensitive to corrections, but not when he's lunging at another dog. He's much better off leash at a distance, because I can say "no" and he does not lunge. He's worked up, but he stays with me at a safe distance. 

For those of us who are novices and did not grow up with dogs, it's very difficult to make sense of all the training information out there and of your own dog because not all dogs are the same, but you don't really know what the differences mean. For example, I did not know that Titus is sensitive and does not always respond the way you want him to harsh corrections. 

My GSD Juno has taught me way more about Titus in the year that I've had her than in the two years Titus and I spent together. I've had some interesting insights.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Age is less important than nerve. I had a prong on Valor to start introducing him to pressure at 4.5 months. Some dogs never get a prong or e-collar. It's not about compulsion as much as pressure for me if I expect the dog to fight for real. I will apply pressure while holding a stay before a reward to acclimate the dog to pressure. If it is manners I'm after, then I will proceed in the way that the dog prefers.


What's the reason you want to acclimate the dog to pressure? I have seen videos where Shield K9 does something similar but I'm not sure what the end game is. I walk my dog with a prong sometimes because she can pull hard. She self-corrects very well with it. I have also corrected her with it for reacting to a dog, its quite effective. I wouldn't want her to be desensitized to it and treat it like a flat collar.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> @Sabis mom
> I went to see the old fashioned trainer after Titus my rescue broke free. The buckle on his collar snapped open and he ran 100 m down the road to bite another dog. I don't know how badly because after I managed to contain my dog, the other dog and owner had disappeared and I was not able to apologize etc.
> 
> The trainer recommended a prong, so that is what I used. The pulling ceased immediately. In retrospect, I think it was the wrong tool for Titus. He is very sensitive to corrections, but not when he's lunging at another dog. He's much better off leash at a distance, because I can say "no" and he does not lunge. He's worked up, but he stays with me at a safe distance.
> ...


LOL. Shadow teaches me new stuff every day. All we can ever do is live and learn. 
The issue that I see is that people get told to put a prong on their dog, but that's all the information that they get. For me they are a tool to facilitate training. So the end game is to not need one. I don't want my dog self correcting, I want to give a correction before it gets to that place. That's me, not you. 
So for Shadow, as soon as I opened the gate she was up on her toes with her tail tucked waiting for the fight. So before I touched the gate I would give a light pop to get her focus back on me. Then we proceed. As soon as her ears pitched forward because she heard a dog another light pop, focus back on me. In her case she needed to get through a walk without any reaction because she was so used to being accosted by loose dogs that she hated walks. We alternated between trying to run and wanting to fight. The prong gave me a clean path to communicate and keep her focus solely on me. Once she was in the habit of focusing on me I phased out the prong. Now she sniffs and wanders like a real dog and all I need is a leash pop on a flat collar to get her focus if I need to.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

@violetmd - Is this the video you are referring to?






_"You use a tool like the prong collar but owners just rely on the collar to do all the work. And that is a critical error because the collar isn't going to train the dog, training trains the dog."_ - Haz


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> It's interesting how many people use prongs and e collars.
> In general I work almost entirely with a flat collar. Any thoughts on that?


So how do you give a meaningful correction to a hard-dog on just a flat collar?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Age is less important than nerve. I had a prong on Valor to start introducing him to pressure at 4.5 months. Some dogs never get a prong or e-collar.* It's not about compulsion as much as pressure for me if I expect the dog to fight for real.* I will apply pressure while holding a stay before a reward to acclimate the dog to pressure. If it is manners I'm after, then I will proceed in the way that the dog prefers.


Thank you for your detailed response. 

You also bring up another interesting point but I was hoping you might be able to clarify what you mean regarding the following statement - I think you may be talking about relationship? :

_"It's not about compulsion as much as pressure for me if I expect the dog to fight for real." - _David Winners


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> @violetmd - Is this the video you are referring to?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This isnt the video. It was a video where he was training a IGP dog... I'll see if I can find it. This is an interesting video that I havent watched before. I can't say I've been this meticulous in training my pup's loose-leash walking.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> So how do you give a meaningful correction to a hard-dog on just a flat collar?


Since I don't do much formal training with pups by the time we get to correction stage they know the rules and are fully aware that no means no.
Why would I not be able to correct on a flat collar?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A lot depends on what your goals are. Pet obedience and precision sport obedience are very different and require different approaches and tools.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> Thank you for your detailed response.
> 
> You also bring up another interesting point but I was hoping you might be able to clarify what you mean regarding the following statement - I think you may be talking about relationship? :
> 
> _"It's not about compulsion as much as pressure for me if I expect the dog to fight for real." - _David Winners


Relationship comes first. If you have a good relationship, you can apply stress to the dog and still be friends.

A dog that is going to have to deal with pressure needs to learn how to do that incrementally. Take an MMA fighter, or really any elite skill. You don't just take a genetically predisposed individual and throw them into a fight. They start off building good habits, then the training increases in intensity and they slowly learn that uncomfortable, stressful things lead to rewarding things. They learn to push their body and mind in ways that acclimate them to stress. When a fighter gets hit in the face and their reaction is a smile, they are thinking "challenge accepted" in their lizard brain. You don't get that response learning forms and techniques. You get that response from repeated exposure to getting hit in the face and then winning.

So I'll use many things to apply pressure to the dog, both mental and physical, in a way that exposes them to rewarding events after the pressure. That may be rough play, pops on a prong or e-collar, frustration in drive, new and strange situations, hot, cold, loud, dark, stick hits, screaming decoy, whatever. It's teaching the dog that the juice is worth the squeeze in such a way that you come out better friends, even though it was tough.

The relationship aspect is like this. Hey buddy, I won't put you in a situation where you will fail, but I may put you in a situation where you have to try real hard to succeed, and it will be worth it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

violetmd said:


> What's the reason you want to acclimate the dog to pressure? I have seen videos where Shield K9 does something similar but I'm not sure what the end game is. I walk my dog with a prong sometimes because she can pull hard. She self-corrects very well with it. I have also corrected her with it for reacting to a dog, its quite effective. I wouldn't want her to be desensitized to it and treat it like a flat collar.


I want him acclimated to pressure because he may need to handle extreme pressure some day. I'm not worried about the prong becoming ineffective because he understands the context of the situation. I rarely have to give him a correction anyhow, and he understands that it is a correction because of my pitch, tone, inflection, posture and so forth.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I already said the softest dog I owned was the one I used a prong on. It is also apparently not a good tool for reactivity but for us it proved to be the most effective, cleanest method to communicate. I really don't see it as a correction, in her case more of a clean interrupter to open the channel back up.


This is my pup right now. She's very soft. If I verbally say "No!" loudly, for example I want her to not eat some disgusting thing on the ground, she'll cower, ears flat, stare at me wide-eyed like "oops!". This is without any paired physical correction. 

On a flat collar, she will not yield to leash pressure when she's excited/focused on something else. The physical correction on a flat collar is not enough, while the verbal correction is too strong. With the prong on, she yields nicely to leash pressure and our walk is controlled, stress-free, and we're both happy.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Relationship comes first. If you have a good relationship, you can apply stress to the dog and still be friends.
> 
> A dog that is going to have to deal with pressure needs to learn how to do that incrementally. Take an MMA fighter, or really any elite skill. You don't just take a genetically predisposed individual and throw them into a fight. They start off building good habits, then the training increases in intensity and they slowly learn that uncomfortable, stressful things lead to rewarding things. They learn to push their body and mind in ways that acclimate them to stress. When a fighter gets hit in the face and their reaction is a smile, they are thinking "challenge accepted" in their lizard brain. You don't get that response learning forms and techniques. You get that response from repeated exposure to getting hit in the face and then winning.
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining that. I see what you mean now when you said at 4.5 months you used a prong not for the compulsion aspect but rather to apply pressure to build Valor up. When you mentioned "biting for real", I thought you may have been talking about "control" because I've read that some people who like to take advantage of the "natural protection" in a dog don't like to use too much control. But everything you said makes sense.

So this leads to another question that is open to anybody: I know most people don't like everything Koehler teaches, but is there not value in some of his techniques such as using pressure in obedience; especially, when teaching the "down" command?

I have read several well known people, that have dealt with tough dogs, say that using pressure to teach the "down" command helps instill your leadership in the dog's eye. I haven't dealt with enough dogs to know if this is true or not. To me, it makes sense and, even if there is no truth in it, I can't really see any negatives ?

Haz doesn't mention the above. But in the following video, which is a Koehler variation, he mentions using it for dogs not food motivated:


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Since I don't do much formal training with pups by the time we get to correction stage they know the rules and are fully aware that no means no.
> Why would I not be able to correct on a flat collar?


I'm not sure, maybe you can.

In my limited experience, with three German Shepherds, one being handler sensitive, one hard, and the current one being very hard; the flat collar, or closed shutzhund collar, is like a nagging correction to the hard-dog.

I've found with my small sample that, prior to maturity, the hard dogs would take hard corrections, and I'm talking out-of-drive, to catch their attention. For me, it didn't take very many corrections for them to understand and thus I hardly use prong collar. All I have to use now is a "ahh ahh" and the dog understands. 

Further, when I do use a prong collar now, such as to clean up loose leash walking, my dog is more sensitive to it now than he was prior to maturity. 

This is just my experience. Although, I can't say I'm a good trainer either lol.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> I'm not sure, maybe you can.


I am no trainer. 
I titled an obedience dog on a flat collar. Generally speaking by the time I get to corrections a look, a tone, a shift in posture works as a correction. The leash for me isn't about control, I work incredibly hard to keep it that way. The ground work all gets laid long before the leash work starts

Shadow and her prong were an extreme situation that called for some out of the box thinking. Extreme fear was causing extreme fear aggression or extreme flight response. A collar, even her martingale, tightening on her neck was heightening the fear and by default the response. She uses a martingale because snippy little head makes her pro at collar slipping. The prong made me able to communicate without the collar tightening, all I had to really do was jiggle it a bit. To facilitate that I worked on her first in the house, then in the yard where she was safe. Haz coached me through the beginning part, I used his videos as a guide.
Our first outing, was a disaster! I opened the gate and she spooked, bolted, hit the prong and lost her mind! I panicked and gave up. @Steve Strom very bluntly schooled me on exactly what I did wrong and convinced me to try again. 
I learn from every dog, no two train up the same. Most often each new dog adds to the tool box because no actual method is perfect for every dog. They all need an ingredient added or taken away. I have learned more from this witch on my couch then I did from 5 previous dogs. And she is horribly trained! She's cute though.


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## Shefali (Aug 12, 2020)

mycobraracr said:


> Generally speaking, I use prong, e-collars, slip leads, clickers, food, toys, all kinds of things. Depends on the dog and what I’m trying to accomplish. I’m a big believer in NILIF. I find it super easy and useful. Generally training for me looks like this
> +R -P Clicker and food mostly
> +R -P -R Clicker, Food e-collar or leash pressure
> +R -P -R +P same as above but slightly different approach with them.


I have only used regular collars and slip leads. With my current boy I tried a prong collar, he hated it and after the third time he reacted very badly to it so I stopped using it. He doesn't necessarily like the slip lead but he tolerates it. I have also recently started introducing him to the e-collar, and, again, he is fine with it. Both the slip lead and the e-collar seem to really help me communicate with him, and to me that is all that training is about. My assumption is that my dog wants to please me and so the real issue is helping him understand what I want.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> Thank you for explaining that. I see what you mean now when you said at 4.5 months you used a prong not for the compulsion aspect but rather to apply pressure to build Valor up. When you mentioned "biting for real", I thought you may have been talking about "control" because I've read that some people who like to take advantage of the "natural protection" in a dog don't like to use too much control. But everything you said makes sense.
> 
> So this leads to another question that is open to anybody: I know most people don't like everything Koehler teaches, but is there not value in some of his techniques such as using pressure in obedience; especially, when teaching the "down" command?
> 
> ...


Initially, I use leash pressure to introduce the prong and the idea of +P-R+R, basically escape training with markers. Then it goes from there. It gives me a tool to communicate position in a non confrontational way, an introduction to pressure and release, and that it's no big deal.

The idea of forcing a dog into a down goes against my idea of dog training. While it is true that the dogs I use the most compulsion on are those that lack drive, and I may use leash pressure on that type of dog to teach positions, I don't think that is the situation to which you refer.

Forcing a down to deal with rank issues is counterproductive if we are talking about a planned training session. If the dog is actively fighting you, that's another situation and at that point, you have screwed up.

A dog refusing to down is more about trust than rank IMO. I will just wait him out until it happens. That may be a week in an older dog that has HA issues. It's kind of a placeholder in my relationship with a dog. Up until that point, I just basically play with him. I don't want to set up a situation where I have to hammer him into anything, and forcing a down is just asking for conflict.

I hope this explains the approach I use a bit. I take my time and work with the dog, as opposed to working against them, as much as possible. I want an active dog, pushing me for rewards and freely trying new things, rather than a reactive dog trying to avoid punishment.

ETA: none of this is my idea. Guys like Bart Bellon, Larry Krohn, Ivan Balabanov, Michael Ellis are better examples than I am. I try and take the approach to training and relationship that these guys use and apply it to how I live with and train dogs. For me, that is more important than any particular technique. I'm not training precision obedience or anything.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Forcing a down to deal with rank issues is counterproductive if we are talking about a planned training session. If the dog is actively fighting you, that's another situation and at that point, you have screwed up.
> 
> A dog refusing to down is more about trust than rank IMO. I will just wait him out until it happens. That may be a week in an older dog that has HA issues. It's kind of a placeholder in my relationship with a dog. Up until that point, I just basically play with him. I don't want to set up a situation where I have to hammer him into anything, and forcing a down is just asking for conflict.
> 
> I hope this explains the approach I use a bit. I take my time and work with the dog, as opposed to working against them, as much as possible. I want an active dog, pushing me for rewards and freely trying new things, rather than a reactive dog trying to avoid punishment.


I know you are very experienced in dealing with tough dogs and HA issues. Your insights are very much appreciated and they carry a lot of weight. 

What I was referring to was teaching the dog - a puppy you raised - a forced down through leash pressure as a "preventative" to rank issues.

But from what you said, I don't think you buy into that theory and this is good to know.

I have only trained any obedience on two dogs and I used the method of luring the puppy into positions with food and voice markers. Then at around 9 - 10 months used a prong to proof these commands. I have very few commands and keep things simple.

I do admit to using Koehler's method of walking a straight line and then pivoting 180 degrees while jerking on the end of the leash to fix some jerky behaviors lol.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> I do admit to using Koehler's method of walking a straight line and then pivoting 180 degrees while jerking on the end of the leash to fix some jerky behaviors lol.


I use figure 8's and circles. The whole basis of the method is teaching the dog that at your side is a good thing and that it must pay attention to you if it wants to know what is going on.
Circle away from the dog to correct lagging, toward the dog to prevent forging. No talking, no cuing with the leash.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Circle away from the dog to correct lagging, toward the dog to prevent forging. No talking, no cuing with the leash.


This is one of the small things things used in schutzhund. Lower drive dogs that tend to lag more, you start by circling with them on the outside when you go to the group to gain some drive back. With the higher drive dog’s you start with then on the inside to gain some more control in the group.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jen84 said:


> I know you are very experienced in dealing with tough dogs and HA issues. Your insights are very much appreciated and they carry a lot of weight.
> 
> What I was referring to was teaching the dog - a puppy you raised - a forced down through leash pressure as a "preventative" to rank issues.
> 
> ...


True rank issues are not that common and are genetic in nature so it is not so much preventing true rank issues but adjusting the training. This is not an issue with the vast majority of GSDs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> I know you are very experienced in dealing with tough dogs and HA issues. Your insights are very much appreciated and they carry a lot of weight.
> 
> What I was referring to was teaching the dog - a puppy you raised - a forced down through leash pressure as a "preventative" to rank issues.
> 
> ...


I have never had rank issues with a puppy I have raised or trained from early on. I think rank issues come from a genetic predisposition, as Chip stated, combined with poor relationship and inconsistent training. 

As far as compulsion based obedience, it depends on what you want the dog to look like. Do you want the dog in drive during OB?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> True rank issues are not that common and are genetic in nature so it is not so much preventing true rank issues but adjusting the training. This is not an issue with the vast majority of GSDs.


I agree with you that "true" rank issues may not be that common and are genetic in nature but I would add that all dogs have some degree of rank drive in my understanding. You could look at rank drive on a scale of one to ten and ten being the rare super alpha. However, I don't think a dog has to be a ten in rank drive to start displaying dominant behavior during the maturation phase - say between 15 - 30 months. You could have dog that is a three on the rank-drive scale and if that dog doesn't sense any leadership and has inconsistent training, as Dave mentioned, then it is possible for that dog to start displaying unwanted behavior during the maturation phase such as serious growling; and depending on how the owner reacts to that growling then things could take a turn in the wrong direction.

I would also agree with you that it is hard to prevent "true" rank issues but my line of thinking was that if a "newbie", or even a very experienced owner who was looking for a dominant type dog, wanted to stack the deck in their favor then doing the simple exercise of downing a dog via Koehler method really can't hurt. I agree with you that some of Koehler's methods are outdated but do you think that the obedience part is abusive too?

I'm not really the best with with words but here is a thread that I got the idea from. I also read something similar somewhere else but I can't, for the life of me, remember where I read it. Also, I know you're in the following thread and I just want you to know that is not the reason I'm posting it. I really appreciate all your posts and you questioning the big boys so that readers can get a balanced picture. I also really like the way you tell it like it is and for the most part I agree with what you say as it usually lines up with my understanding. So just keep preaching and I'm glad you're not banned because I think that would be a mistake on the mods part as I and others learn a lot from you:

"I would say that use of negative reinforcement in teaching mainly down command is of utmost importance... I know that I sound like a broken record and some are sick of it but I will state this one more time. if you apply today positive only training methods which are designed for performance and not to on to establish leadership position on every day life scenarios and you treat that way the old style dogs who are tough then you will be in heap of trouble. This trouble can be avoided with simple training techniques. One is to teach the pup down with negative reinforcement..." - Hans









AlpineK9© Original Czech BORDER PATROL GSDs-Handler Aggression


Assuming some handler aggression runs in the pedigree: Can you tell from puppy-hood what dogs will have tendency towards handler aggression? What beha




alpinek9forums.com





Further, what percentage of "working line" German Shepherds do you think have a legitimate shot at showing "true" rank behaviors - I was thinking in the 0.5 to 1 percent range ?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I have never had rank issues with a puppy I have raised or trained from early on. I think rank issues come from a genetic predisposition, as Chip stated, combined with poor relationship and inconsistent training.
> 
> As far as compulsion based obedience, it depends on what you want the dog to look like. Do you want the dog in drive during OB?


Like I mentioned above, I think all dogs have genetic predisposition to move up the ladder if they sense poor leadership/relationship and inconsistent training.

I think Ed explains things relatively well in this article:








Dealing with the Dominant Dog


Very few dogs are truly dominant. We feel the vast majority of the people who need help with their dogs don't have dominant dogs but rather they have dogs that have never learned rules. For lack of a better description, these are dogs that have never learned




leerburg.com





^^^^^^ This is why I was thinking that if integrating the forced down command with modern methods could give newbies an edge, then why not ?

I was talking about "utility" everyday obedience. Not sport obedience.

I guess I'm just wondering if there is anything negative about teaching a dog Koehler style obedience and even mixing several different styles of obedience. Is there any harm in say teaching Koehler style at 4 months and then training obedience in drive using food or toys ? Or is this just unnecessary BS ?

For me personally, it seems that using food to teach puppy obedience is the easiest thing to do. I am kind of like you in the sense that I don't really have set schedule in obedience but rather just train through daily life and also through play like fetch. You know, getting the dog sit or down and throw the stick or ball and release the dog type thing.

I'm not really thinking of these things so much for me but rather to help newbies sort through all the BS and "fluff".

IMO, if newbies, which I consider myself, keep the following basic principle in mind: praise what you want and punish what you don't want then they wouldn't have such a hard time. Obviously, when I say punishment I'm not talking about abuse. Although, I will say, if your dog attacks you then all politically correct BS goes out the window.

When a dog chases and kills a chicken, people in the old days would laugh when someone says call a trainer. They knew what to do: catch the dog in the act and punish it. That's it and that's all. No trainers and no bs LOL.

Do you think Koehler, obedience part, is a superior method for everyday life reliability?

I think even guys like @cliffson1 still like to use parts of Koehler and integrate it with more modern methods.

Here is from Koehler website:

The use of mechanical placement

Many of the new-age trainers will have you lure the dog into a desired position (i.e. the sit) with a bit of food or the promise of a toy. Some will ‘catch’ the behaviour, when offered randomly, and then reward it. I am not going to say anything one way or the other as to someone else’s preferred practice, to each their own.

For our purpose, though, we want to give the dog every opportunity to honestly earn praise, and so the method follows the practice of modeling the behaviour we want. The dog simply cannot fail to succeed, and with each successful placement the dog is praised for the effort. In doing it this way the handler grows comfortable with handling the dog, and the dog grows accepting of being handled. The benefit of that should be patently obvious to anyone who contracts the services of a groomer, vet, or just wants to be able to clean his own dog’s teeth or cut his nails without a fight.

Mechanical placement is used for the sit, the down, the stand, the front and the finish. Follow along with the book and/or your instructor.

By the way, it is not because the author knew nothing about using bait to shape behaviour … he knew enough about it to understand that it can sometimes interfere with the honest development of the master/dog relationship. Yep, I wrote ‘interfere.’

The method teaches the use of mechanical placement because that is what works best in the bigger picture.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I’m of the belief that physically forcing a dog to do something they don’t want to can create conflict. If you’re doing it to a dog that is willing to bite you, doing this can bring that out. Especially a down. I feel like if someone was already doing a bunch of wrong stuff then this could not only be setting them up for a showdown, but the final catalyst. You can use force to teach things and go back to add drive and excitement later. That’s not always so easy. As far my dogs, I taught them the down using lures. On the field, I enforce it through force. With the prong rotated so the leash clips under the chin, I pull straight down after giving the command.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I don't ever work on down until the dog and I have established trust. Avoidance? You bet. 
Down is or can be both vulnerable and submissive. I am of the belief that asking a dog to do something it's likely to be uncomfortable with before trust is established is setting it up to fail. And setting the stage for what could turn into a pattern of conflict in the relationship.
If a dog freely offers a down, I reward it but it is one of the last commands I actually teach.
I'm fine with forcing it at that point. If and only if the dog still resists. 
If you actually follow Koehlers method start to finish, the so called force at that point is more guidance then actual force. The dog has already learned to yield to pressure.
Koehler stated in his training manuals that deviations or omissions from the program turned it into something else and utilizing only part of it could be cruel and unfair to the dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

A lot of newbies create big problems for themselves by picking fights with their dogs.It makes more sense to me to begin by luring and shaping.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> Like I mentioned above, I think all dogs have genetic predisposition to move up the ladder if they sense poor leadership/relationship and inconsistent training.
> 
> I think Ed explains things relatively well in this article:
> 
> ...


I patently detest black and white statements about dog training. 

Training through luring, fading the lure to a hand signal, adding a verbal command, going to a random reward schedule, and then adding pressure for non compliance. It builds strong behaviors and avoids the need to build drive in obedience later (if it is even possible).

I can teach a dog to be handled by handling it and rewarding good behavior in all those scenarios and places. Why introduce conflict by forcing the dog? 

For me, a dog learns that it doesn't have an option as we go through very controlled steps, always looking for success along the way. The big deference that I see is that if you teach the dog to handle pressure in a fun way, instead of doing obedience, the dog won't go flat or not like training. So you develop all those obedience/tracking/detection behaviors in drive, separately adding pressure to other things like fetch, stay in the car, don't rush the door, and loose leash walking, and then bring the concepts together after the dog is mature and successful enough in obedience to handle the pressure without going flat.

It depends on your goals. If you just want a solid down, teach it however you want. If you want a scissor down out of motion, I suggest you keep the drive in the dog instead of trying to build speed and motivation later.

From my perspective and experience, forcing a rank dog into a down is a mistake. I finished a lot of dogs that were KNPV trained. I always went back to step one and trained markers, lured into positions, faded the lure to signals, went to random rewards, added pressure after. This may move very quickly depending on the dog. Typically, within a couple weeks they were much easier to handle and less likely to come up the leash or fight you for the ball.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I’m of the belief that physically forcing a dog to do something they don’t want to can create conflict. If you’re doing it to a dog that is willing to bite you, doing this can bring that out. Especially a down. I feel like if someone was already doing a bunch of wrong stuff then this could not only be setting them up for a showdown, but the final catalyst.





David Winners said:


> From my perspective and experience, forcing a rank dog into a down is a mistake. I finished a lot of dogs that were KNPV trained. I always went back to step one and trained markers, lured into positions, faded the lure to signals, went to random rewards, added pressure after. This may move very quickly depending on the dog. Typically, within a couple weeks they were much easier to handle and less likely to come up the leash or fight you for the ball.


I agree that forcing a "down" on an adult rank dog, or one going through social maturity, is a very bad idea.

But who is talking about doing this lol ?

I'm talking about teaching a forced "down" on a 4-6 month old puppy using leash pressure.




dogma13 said:


> A lot of newbies create big problems for themselves by picking fights with their dogs.It makes more sense to me to begin by luring and shaping.


I watched Haz's video again on the mechanical down, which is posted on page 3, and I agree that this technique is not advisable for "most" newbies. They're better off sticking to hotdogs.

You can screw your dog up if you don't pay attention to detail like @ 8:15 on the timer of the "down" video.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> If you actually follow Koehlers method start to finish, the so called force at that point is more guidance then actual force. The dog has already learned to yield to pressure.
> Koehler stated in his training manuals that deviations or omissions from the program turned it into something else and utilizing only part of it could be cruel and unfair to the dog.


Do you think Haz's video on the old-school down on page three is cruel and unfair ?



Sabis mom said:


> Down is or can be both vulnerable and submissive.


And that is the point that Hans is trying to take advantage of. At least that is the way I understand it.

"I would say that use of negative reinforcement in teaching mainly down command is of utmost importance... I know that I sound like a broken record and some are sick of it but I will state this one more time. if you apply today positive only training methods which are designed for performance and not to on to establish leadership position on every day life scenarios and you treat that way the old style dogs who are tough then you will be in heap of trouble. This trouble can be avoided with simple training techniques. One is to teach the pup down with negative reinforcement..." - Hans


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> Do you think Haz's video on the old-school down on page three is cruel and unfair ?
> 
> 
> And that is the point that Hans is trying to take advantage of. At least that is the way I understand it.
> ...


 I think Haz is a skilled trainer, and I never commented on his techniques or ideas specifically. That particular method is not one I would use.
As to the quote I understand the concept, and it has merit. Again, it's not how I chose to approach things.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> I'm talking about teaching a forced "down" on a 4-6 month old puppy using leash pressure.


I'm not understanding why this would be necessary when initially teaching the position.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> Do you think Haz's video on the old-school down on page three is cruel and unfair ?
> 
> 
> And that is the point that Hans is trying to take advantage of. At least that is the way I understand it.
> ...


Just to be clear, I'm not, nor have I ever been, a proponent for positive only training. I just choose, for most dogs, to apply pressure in different ways than training the down.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> I agree that forcing a "down" on an adult rank dog, or one going through social maturity, is a very bad idea.
> 
> But who is talking about doing this lol ?
> 
> ...


I think it’s an issue with puppies as well. I believe setting up conflict early on can definitely lead to issues later. I watched that video. Overall he does use a lot of praise. There is conflict though. You can see it in this dogs body language as he goes. Haz doesn’t train his own dogs this way and his reasoning for using this was the dog didn’t have good drive to use other methods. I believe it is a lot easier when you add pressure and the dog knows what it’s supposed to do, knows what to do to turn off that pressure. As for what Prager said, I think it’s a straw man argument when you’re talking to people with working dogs. I know of one person who is training a dog in any type of bite work who is using something close to positive only training. I think when you’re teaching a dog, it’s better for them to make the on their own. I don’t believe using negative reinforcement to teach a down is going to help you with handler aggression. Most of the handler aggression I know of comes when handlers give the dogs corrections, apply force, or try to make the dog do something they don’t want to. A method based on exactly that is moving you towards handler aggression in my opinion.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Neat thread. I like the direction it’s taken. Preemptively dealing with rank concerns is an interesting idea. Personally, I think the rare genetic rank issues will show up with a handler/person if the genetics are in the dog and the person hasn’t established the correct level of respect/leadership. Not sure if introducing conflict as a puppy will eliminate rank problems later on in life, and I also don’t think the method would establish the handler as a fair leader in the dog’s eyes. I’m very sure forcing a down on my boy would not have been a good route and would have hurt our relationship when I should have been building the relationship to prepare for jerk adolescence. I think timing of correction when rank issues crop up would have a much bigger effect. 

I’m a newbie to GSDs but I do try a balanced approach. I admit, that sometimes I get carried away with how much fun it is to work with my boy and probably do too much positive. I want to be the most fun thing ever and he obeys because it’s more fun to listen than not and respecting me to be fair and pushy right back at him. But I’m dealing with a hard dog with high pack drive and being separated is the worst punishment. 
Each dog is different. 

That basically means I use a prong, use luring, try and make training sessions more about play than obey. I also ask for a lot of control behavior like long downs, place, etc. I join him in exploring the world and enjoy that big giant stick he found in the woods and finding deer tracks to follow. 

Nothing revolutionary.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

CeraDean said:


> timing of correction when rank issues crop up would have a much bigger effect.


This is what I'm thinking too.And yes,it is a neat thread.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Rank drive is not common so to say all dogs have it is not accurate. It is a minority of dogs. It is another trait that has been selected away from and I think IGP has negatively influenced that selection, which IMO is an example of how the sport has lead to a loss of valuable genetics. It is not that you want a super dominant dog, but if the trait is totally eliminated, the breed suffers. What is common is when owners treat their dogs like children or friends and lack leadership and don't establish limits or provide training. Those were the types of situations you would frequently see on Cesar Milan's old show. But that is not the result of a genetically dominant dog. If there is not leadership, many dogs will take the role as leader. True alpha dogs are very rare is at all. Dominant behavior and the genetic trait of dominance are two separate things. I see you quoted Hans. Not the best source IMO. I have a driven, pushy dog who has challenged me and I never once remotely taught a forced down. Early in his training if he broke a down due to excitement over the decoy, he got a firm correction or two and that settled the issue of not holding the down. But the teaching of it was strictly positive reinforcement. I have used the e-collar for increased speed of the down, but using the least amount of stim necessary and the dog just downs faster and doesn't react to the stim negatively because his foundation with the e-collar was started early.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think a lot of what people think is rank drive is simply confusion. 
Most dogs like to know what is going on. When the rules and boundaries are ever changing the get rebellious about it. 
If you always let the dog have a spot on the couch but then you take that away, the dog protests. It isn't that the dog is aggressive, it's that you changed the rules mid game and the dog sees that as unfair.
I do believe that the furbaby mentality is harmful to dogs. I love my dog, she is partner/friend/family. But she is still a dog. I don't dress her, arrange daycare or playdates. I don't baby talk, I don't consider her rights when making decisions. 
She is a dog. She is deserving of food, water, shelter and humane care. That is all.
I believe most behaviour issues stem from owners overthinking things. I don't really care if my dog likes her muzzle, I said she must wear it. End of discussion. I don't waste a ton of time worrying about it. Same as crate, collar, vet visits or me going to work. It is what it is. 
In general I assess the dog in front of me and approach training in as conflict free a manner as possible. We play, we learn, we bond and we develop a foundation for training that will stand.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I think it’s an issue with puppies as well. I believe setting up conflict early on can definitely lead to issues later. I watched that video. Overall he does use a lot of praise. There is conflict though. You can see it in this dogs body language as he goes. Haz doesn’t train his own dogs this way and his reasoning for using this was the dog didn’t have good drive to use other methods. I believe it is a lot easier when you add pressure and the dog knows what it’s supposed to do, knows what to do to turn off that pressure. As for what Prager said, I think it’s a straw man argument when you’re talking to people with working dogs. I know of one person who is training a dog in any type of bite work who is using something close to positive only training. I think when you’re teaching a dog, it’s better for them to make the on their own. I don’t believe using negative reinforcement to teach a down is going to help you with handler aggression. Most of the handler aggression I know of comes when handlers give the dogs corrections, apply force, or try to make the dog do something they don’t want to. A method based on exactly that is moving you towards handler aggression in my opinion.


Maybe you're right about the "down" not having much impact in the overall scheme of things. All I know, is that if I wanted a "van leeuwen" dog, I would want to stack any advantage in my favor. 

I agree that you want as little conflict as possible with your dog. However, this method of "down" just seems like a simple exercise. Sure there is some stress and pressure, but I think any good dog should be able to easily handle this.

My dog was the type to get car sick as a pup. The veterinarian is four hour drive and we got five minutes to leave or we're going to be late for his shots. The dog decides he doesn't want to go, and plants himself on the grass, because he knows he'll be sick - I can't blame him one bit. However, the fact of the matter is we have to go. You think I'm going to start luring him with hotdogs so that we can avoid conflict lol. You know how I handled this, I pick the dog up and put him in the truck and he gets sick for four hours - and of course I would stop every once in while to let him walk around. Sometimes, the dog has to deal with conflict.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> I'm not understanding why this would be necessary when initially teaching the position.


It's not.

I wouldn't initially teach this position. I would teach everything else using treats and voice marker. Then I would teach "down" using the mechanical method. I'm not saying I'm going to do this, but that is what I would do if I were to implement it.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not, nor have I ever been, a proponent for positive only training. I just choose, for most dogs, to apply pressure in different ways than training the down.


I never thought this at all. We were talking about prong collars on page two.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Rank drive is not common so to say all dogs have it is not accurate. It is a minority of dogs. It is another trait that has been selected away from and I think IGP has negatively influenced that selection, which IMO is an example of how the sport has lead to a loss of valuable genetics. It is not that you want a super dominant dog, but if the trait is totally eliminated, the breed suffers. What is common is when owners treat their dogs like children or friends and lack leadership and don't establish limits or provide training. Those were the types of situations you would frequently see on Cesar Milan's old show. But that is not the result of a genetically dominant dog. If there is not leadership, many dogs will take the role as leader. True alpha dogs are very rare is at all. Dominant behavior and the genetic trait of dominance are two separate things. I see you quoted Hans. Not the best source IMO. I have a driven, pushy dog who has challenged me and I never once remotely taught a forced down. Early in his training if he broke a down due to excitement over the decoy, he got a firm correction or two and that settled the issue of not holding the down. But the teaching of it was strictly positive reinforcement. I have used the e-collar for increased speed of the down, but using the least amount of stim necessary and the dog just downs faster and doesn't react to the stim negatively because his foundation with the e-collar was started early.


I know Michael Ellis says the same thing you're saying about rank drive not being common. I guess I just think of it slightly differently. Some will even say that some dogs have a "subordinate drive". I also read threads where you and the big boys have discussed some of these terms and there never really seems to be much consensus. 
I will take back what I said about "all" dogs have rank drive and say that many dogs, if not all, have some degree of rank drive even if that degree is a negative. Look at basset hounds, there is rank drive there too.
I am not trying to argue with you and if you can help me polish up my understanding then it would be appreciated. However, I think the real important thing here, or what interest me the most, is what does "True" rank drive look like. Or how would you describe "true" rank drive. I think "true" rank drive can come in various degrees as well - like on a scale of one to ten.

In your opinion, what would you see in a dog that met the minimum on the "true" rank scale. In other words, what would you consider a "one" and what would you think is a "ten" ?

What do you and @David Winners consider a "rank dog".

I know Ellis describes the extreme case, true alpha, as the stereotypical very confident, calm, cool, collective dog that easy to live with until you ask it to do something it doesn't want to. Here is the video @4:00 min on timer:






BTW, I don't agree with everything Hans says but I do think he has some good information, if you can sort it, and some good ideas. That is why I was questioning his idea on the "down" using negative reinforcement.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's funny


Jen84 said:


> Maybe you're right about the "down" not having much impact in the overall scheme of things. All I know, is that if I wanted a "van leeuwen" dog, I would want to stack any advantage in my favor.
> 
> I agree that you want as little conflict as possible with your dog. However, this method of "down" just seems like a simple exercise. Sure there is some stress and pressure, but I think any good dog should be able to easily handle this.
> 
> My dog was the type to get car sick as a pup. The veterinarian is four hour drive and we got five minutes to leave or we're going to be late for his shots. The dog decides he doesn't want to go, and plants himself on the grass, because he knows he'll be sick - I can't blame him one bit. However, the fact of the matter is we have to go. You think I'm going to start luring him with hotdogs so that we can avoid conflict lol. You know how I handled this, I pick the dog up and put him in the truck and he gets sick for four hours - and of course I would stop every once in while to let him walk around. Sometimes, the dog has to deal with conflict.


I have worked a dog from **** and Selena, and progeny of course, and I enjoyed conversations with them on another forum. Nice dogs. Hard as nails. Social. Very physically imposing dogs. While they could handle anything, and it could be argued that early application of pressure in obedience contributed to their hardiness, I believe that this introduction to increasing pressure can be applied in any way that doesn't break the dog or the relationship. I'm not presuming to know more about the raising of working dogs than the Van Leeuwen family. 

I think a major difference in my mind is the age of the dog, and if there is already unchecked conflict in an adult dog. My perspective is one of safety/relationship first as I have trained far more green dogs than working puppies. There are dogs you can make to things with presence and pressure and everything is fine. There are dogs that will immediately push back and not trust you.

I agree that sometimes the dog just has to do something and it needs to understand that. I also believe that it needs to know that it will be ok following you no matter what.

Interesting conversation.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

For those interested:

_"This video is perfect to show you how strong rank and pack drive are genetically ingrained or hardwired into the everyday behavior of the domestic dog." - _Ed Frawley






NOTE: it says "video unavailable" - underneath that it says "watch this video on youtube" - click it


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I was kind of wondering where this conversation was going...but then David said this:



David Winners said:


> There are dogs you can make to things with presence and pressure and everything is fine. There are dogs that will immediately push back and not trust you.


This is where the boots hit the ground! It's absolutely true, and is exactly why people sight unseen can't give some advice over the internet! It isn't that folks may not have some suggestion, it's that the suggestion may not fit your dog!!!

When in doubt, hire a local trainer (with verifiable experience) to help! It'll be money well spent.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jen84,
I think you are confusing what some call pack drive with rank drive. IMO, the term rank drive is not a great one and genetic dominance is better. Genetic dominance is not associated with a totally discrete group of behaviors. It tends to look like aggression but is not aggression per se. Such dogs have an urge to prove superiority and status. You tend to see strong eye contact, puffing/bowing up to impress and power. It is more common in males. Genetically dominant dogs need to feel that sense of power. Because all dogs are different, a genetically dominant dog that lacks strong defensive aggression, where the dog will violently bite when they perceive a treat, will easily be triggered into defense (very reactive) and if the dog can't obtain a sense of power when his less than strong defensive aggression is elicited, flight is actually more likely.  So it is a complex trait that overlaps other traits, which is almost always true with traits.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> Maybe you're right about the "down" not having much impact in the overall scheme of things. All I know, is that if I wanted a "van leeuwen" dog, I would want to stack any advantage in my favor.
> 
> I agree that you want as little conflict as possible with your dog. However, this method of "down" just seems like a simple exercise. Sure there is some stress and pressure, but I think any good dog should be able to easily handle this.


The thing is, I don’t see this method as stacking the deck in your favor. I think it’s the opposite. There is a difference when I say pressure and conflict. When I say pressure, it’s simply a negative stimulus or uncomfortable situation for the dog. Conflict is pressure that specifically creates an adversarial situation. I see this method more in line with stealing food from your dog all the time and not giving it back or anything like that. It’s more likely to lead to the dog believing he needs to fight you for his survival. I think you simply need to establish a positive relationship with your dog where they understand that they cannot push your boundaries or intimidate you into doing what they want. I think a lot of that can come from enforcing known commands. A good may be able to handle this, or you could shut them down. Haz was using a prong. You can slap a prong. It just looks like he was teaching the dog to submit to the pressure. The wrong personality in that situation with the wrong handler and they would have been bit.


Jen84 said:


> My dog was the type to get car sick as a pup. The veterinarian is four hour drive and we got five minutes to leave or we're going to be late for his shots. The dog decides he doesn't want to go, and plants himself on the grass, because he knows he'll be sick - I can't blame him one bit. However, the fact of the matter is we have to go. You think I'm going to start luring him with hotdogs so that we can avoid conflict lol. You know how I handled this, I pick the dog up and put him in the truck and he gets sick for four hours - and of course I would stop every once in while to let him walk around. Sometimes, the dog has to deal with conflict.


Looking at this example, would I have picked the dog up and put them in the car? Most likely. Depends on the dog. Different dog different relationship, and that could be the mountain you’re dog decides he’s going to die on. I assume your dog was shut down entirely in this situation, but maybe he wasn’t. I could pick Cion up. His response however, is to flail bite and fight to regain control. He’s not a dominant dog at all with me. He’s a high pack drive, suck up, I’ll do whatever you want to make you happy type dog. In that situation though, those personality traits go out the door. I have ways of controlling the situation, but without constant verbal corrections, he would fight me. Picking him up and putting him in the car because I need to, sure. If it’s something that started happening multiple times, I would look for a better solution. That is reducing conflict IMO. Sometimes the dog has to deal with conflict. I see no point in introducing it where I don’t have to though. As far as good dogs handling pressure, I think a dogs response to anyone else is different from their response to their handler. Ive never had any aggression issues from bear. I seen him immediately turn on someone else though. It was only a warning, a growl and look, but had she attempted to do something at that point using force, he would have come after her. I’ve seen Bear ready to fight to the death against a different adversary, and immediately submit to me. I don’t think a dog being handler sensitive means it’s not a good dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> For those interested:
> 
> _"This video is perfect to show you how strong rank and pack drive are genetically ingrained or hardwired into the everyday behavior of the domestic dog." - _Ed Frawley
> 
> ...


I don’t relate resource guarding and dominance. I’ve seen submissive dogs willing to fight to the death for their food. I don’t remember any dog prior to bear not being good aggressive. Granted I wasn’t looking to test the theory out on all them. That pink collar puppy for instance, I believe if I walked in there and attempted to take the bone, she would bite me. If I stood there and used presence however, I’m fairly certain she would have yielded to the pressure and gave up the bone. A female used to have was dominant, aggressive and a resource guarder. Another dog couldn’t have food in the same area at all with her. I watched her go bowl to bowl(two other dogs) and simply run off the other dogs. She wasn’t even eating. I think that it’s a much more complex topic than what is shown here. I’ve seen Cion take a lot of things from Bear, and Bear pretty much never take from Cion? Does that mean Cion is the dominant dog? Absolutely not. I’ve never seen Cion push Bear around. Anytime I’ve seen Cion get overly rambunctious and violate Bears space when he didn’t want him to he was corrected. Not physically or through growling. A simple look that someone not familiar with dog behavior could easily miss. It’s something similar to David’s video of valor and his corso, except there’s a lot less theatrics. I think who gets what starts at simple desire. If the desire is equal than rank and aggression will come into play.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Jen84 I finally understand what you are asking. I'm a little slow sometimesInteresting conversation!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> My dog was the type to get car sick as a pup. The veterinarian is four hour drive and we got five minutes to leave or we're going to be late for his shots. The dog decides he doesn't want to go, and plants himself on the grass, because he knows he'll be sick - I can't blame him one bit. However, the fact of the matter is we have to go. You think I'm going to start luring him with hotdogs so that we can avoid conflict lol. You know how I handled this, I pick the dog up and put him in the truck and he gets sick for four hours - and of course I would stop every once in while to let him walk around. Sometimes, the dog has to deal with conflict.


In this particular situation, I would have been more proactive about it. 
I know the dog gets car sick, and I know we need to go for drives. I'm going to make it a thing to work on that. Gravol and short trips, lots of short trips. 
Trips to the park, trips to get ice cream, trips around the block. I'm going to do everything I can to convince my dog that nothing bad is going to happen on my watch.
Any time something bad does happen, you double down and erase it with positive stuff.
Yes sometimes you just need to suck it up, but that's were the foundation you build comes into play.
I don't trim nails. My general theory is that if a dog has good feet they can wear those nails down themselves. Shadow has not had her nails touched since she was a pup. Age and injury have made it impossible for her to wear them down. So I bought a Dremel. She was not a fan. I waited until she was sleepy, turned it on the lowest speed, gave her some treats and went to work. She resisted and even growled. I stood my ground, told her to knock it off, dished out more treats and got it done.
That foundation that we built was what I relied on. She knows I won't hurt her and she got treats. This is a fearful dog that will bite when threatened. I could have just pinned her down and done it, but I guarantee the next time I picked up the Dremel I would have got bit.
Sometimes you need to push but the goal should always be to create minimal conflict between dog and handler so that as a team they can confront external conflict. Stress and conflict are two different things.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Jen84,
> I think you are confusing what some call pack drive with rank drive. IMO, the term rank drive is not a great one and genetic dominance is better. Genetic dominance is not associated with a totally discrete group of behaviors. It tends to look like aggression but is not aggression per se. Such dogs have an urge to prove superiority and status. You tend to see strong eye contact, puffing/bowing up to impress and power. It is more common in males. Genetically dominant dogs need to feel that sense of power. Because all dogs are different, a genetically dominant dog that lacks strong defensive aggression, where the dog will violently bite when they perceive a treat, will easily be triggered into defense (very reactive) and if the dog can't obtain a sense of power when his less than strong defensive aggression is elicited, flight is actually more likely. So it is a complex trait that overlaps other traits, which is almost always true with traits.


*Rank Drive*

This one should be familiar, it's the dominance vs submissive question. Rank drive has to do with the dog's desire to improve his social standing. A dog who is high in rank drive will attempt to grab the highest position in the hierarchy. Again, you will see wide variation among dogs. Some dogs will fight to the death to assume the Alpha position as to the other dogs in the household, but be completely respectful ofhumans and accept human leadership without a fuss. 

Some dogs will, however attempt to dominate humans. But, remember it's always a matter of degree. There is a wide range here, from a mildly rank driven dog who has a cocky attitude to a dog who won't hesitate to come up leash and nail his handler. High rank drive dogs can actually be fun to train because they are so self confident. But, in it's extreme form, it's not a good trait for novice handlers to seek out. When trained motivationally, sane high rank drive dogs can be real stars in many types of work. They're smart and they like showing off. Use that. If you're struggling to live happily with a dominant pet dog, you'll find lots of help in my book, I Love My Dog, But . . . (1999 Avon Books).

*Pack Drive*

We know that dogs are highly social animals, just like their wolf ancestors. They naturally want to be part of a group or pack. As with all drives, dogs vary greatly as to degree of pack drive. A dog who is independent and aloof even with his own family would be considered to be low in pack drive. A more social dog who can't stand to be left out of anything the humans are doing would be higher in pack drive. 

Extremes on either end do not make good working prospects. A dog with very low pack drive isn't going to bond well with his human partner and will be more difficult to motivate in training. Some breeds are supposed to be independent and aloof. Most GSDs bond very deeply to their handlers. 

At the other extreme would be the dog who manifests separation anxiety. This is a dog who, literally cannot be left alone. The poor dog will fall apart and show vocalizations and destructive behavior if the owner goes into another room and closes the door. Dogs with this condition are not good prospects for any type of work. True separation anxiety needs to be treated medically.

To some extent, degree of pack drive is a personal preference. Do you like a dog who is especially attentive to you or one who is able to amuse himself on his own? Until you get to the outer extreme, the higher pack drive dog is easier to train in obedience than the more aloof dog. Too much pack drive can be a handicap in other types of work, however. Consider the dog sent to do an area search. This dog must be willing to leave his handler, and stay in drive. The overly dependent dog is going to become preoccupied with "where is my mom (or dad)?!" and fall out of drive. This is also a function of nerves, which we'll get to later.

A good amount of pack drive makes for a more trainable dog because the dog's worst nightmare is displeasing you and getting kicked out of the pack. More independent dogs tend to also be higher in rank drive. The dog figures we're all here to please him, rather than the other way around.

Above from:




__





(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )






wildhauskennels.com






*RANK DRIVE* is related to the hierarchy in a pack of dogs. A dog with a high rank drive is referred to as a dominant dog. These dogs are usually very confident and demanding but can actually do very well in obedience. The other side of the coin is a dog with a low rank drive which is referred to as a submissive dog.

*PACK DRIVE *is a dog’s natural desire to be part of a group. A dog with a low pack drive is referred as independent. At the other extreme, dogs with a high pack drive often suffer from separation anxiety. Pack drive is very important to training as a dog with sufficient pack drive is eager to maintain its place in the pack, which requires pleasing the higher ranking member of the pack-you. On the other hand, dogs with low pack drive are difficult to train because they could care less.

Above from:








Understanding Dog Drives | High Class K9 Protection Dogs


By understanding your dogs temperament or personality you will be able to effectively communicate and handle your dog. You are going to invest a significant amount of money in a professionally trained dog and we suggest you invest a little time to understand dog behavior. In this article we will...




highclassk9.com






As far as genetic dominance, it looks like you were trying cite Armin Winkler:

Dominance behavior

"Dominance behavior falls in the category of social interaction behaviors. It can appear together with social aggression, but it does not have to. It can appear on its own as well. In many ways dominance behavior resembles aggression, but it really is not a form of aggression in itself. Dominance behavior stems from an internal urge to prove superiority and status. In discussion I use the phrase "this dog likes to throw his weight around." The reason I am making dominance behavior a component of fighting "drive" is that it has an impact on how a dog physically interacts with other individuals and therefore it becomes part of the picture we see.

Dominance behavior includes climbing up on the helper, eye contact, puffing up to impress, and physical dominance through power. Satisfaction seems to occur when the dog gets a sense of power over the helper. This trait is almost always more strongly developed in males than in females.

Dominance behavior can appear on its own or it can overlap with other components. For example, in a dog with a sense of dominance and good prey drive and a personality that frustrates easily we can see that the dog becomes aggressive only if he cannot get a sense of power. This is not the same as social aggression. This type of dog likes to assert his strength while working in prey, the frustration occurs when he cannot express his power over his adversary for the prey. We can also see a dog with a sense of dominance but only capable of the weak passive defense reaction. This type of dog must naturally have a lower threshold for defensive reactions. For him not being able to feel physical power over the helper triggers the sense of worry which in turn triggers the defensive reaction, which in this example would include retreat.

There are countless examples of different combinations. There is no need to list them all, the point I am trying to make is that dominance is not automatically aggression. It is not an isolated trait, and always occurs in conjuntion with another motivation. But it warrants examination on its own. I feel this is important particularly because the re-active forms of aggression can occur without any expression of dominance (Socially aggressive dogs always have some sense of dominance)."





__





Schutzhund Village






www.schutzhundvillage.com


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> The thing is, I don’t see this method as stacking the deck in your favor. I think it’s the opposite. There is a difference when I say pressure and conflict. When I say pressure, it’s simply a negative stimulus or uncomfortable situation for the dog. Conflict is pressure that specifically creates an adversarial situation. I see this method more in line with stealing food from your dog all the time and not giving it back or anything like that. It’s more likely to lead to the dog believing he needs to fight you for his survival. I think you simply need to establish a positive relationship with your dog where they understand that they cannot push your boundaries or intimidate you into doing what they want. I think a lot of that can come from enforcing known commands. A good may be able to handle this, or you could shut them down. Haz was using a prong. You can slap a prong. It just looks like he was teaching the dog to submit to the pressure. The wrong personality in that situation with the wrong handler and they would have been bit.


Thanks for your input.

The only problem I have with your analysis is that Haz says this method is good for "ANY" dog. Not only that, the dog in his video is a dog going to police/security and Haz says the dog is a "sensitive" dog.

It just seems to me, that the pressure being used to force the down is less than the pressure of a dog pulling on the leash. 

I also agree with you that enforcing commands is very important as it also reinforces your leadership position. I think the prong collar does the best job of reinforcing leadership position as it simulates the bite of a higher ranking dog which is natural language to the dog.




Bearshandler said:


> Looking at this example, would I have picked the dog up and put them in the car? Most likely. Depends on the dog. Different dog different relationship, and that could be the mountain you’re dog decides he’s going to die on. I assume your dog was shut down entirely in this situation, but maybe he wasn’t. I could pick Cion up. His response however, is to flail bite and fight to regain control. He’s not a dominant dog at all with me. He’s a high pack drive, suck up, I’ll do whatever you want to make you happy type dog. In that situation though, those personality traits go out the door. I have ways of controlling the situation, but without constant verbal corrections, he would fight me. Picking him up and putting him in the car because I need to, sure. If it’s something that started happening multiple times, I would look for a better solution. That is reducing conflict IMO. Sometimes the dog has to deal with conflict. I see no point in introducing it where I don’t have to though. As far as good dogs handling pressure, I think a dogs response to anyone else is different from their response to their handler. Ive never had any aggression issues from bear. I seen him immediately turn on someone else though. It was only a warning, a growl and look, but had she attempted to do something at that point using force, he would have come after her. I’ve seen Bear ready to fight to the death against a different adversary, and immediately submit to me. I don’t think a dog being handler sensitive means it’s not a good dog.


Honestly can't remember if dog was shut down. I never made a big deal of it and never really gave to much thought as we had to go. I should add, that it was minus 30 degrees celsius and the grass was snow covered lol.

We got to town 15 minutes before appointment and I let him walk around and pee etc. He walked into vets like he owned it lol. No problems going into truck on way home or walking him around town . His issue wasn't the truck, it was the anticipation of being sick. His car sickness I believe was somewhat genetic.

I never said handler sensitive doesn't mean good dog. I said a good dog should be able to handle the minuscule pressure of a forced down that has the equivalent pressure of pulling on a leash. I agree that this may not be an ideal technique for handler sensitive dog but when we talk about preventing handler aggression we are usually talking about handler hard dogs. If you look at Valor's pedigree, David's dog, that is not the type of pedigree that I would be concerned about HA.
Although Valor might be handler sensitive, he is probably a "hard" dog when it comes to fight and is also probably hard to the environment as well.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t relate resource guarding and dominance. I’ve seen submissive dogs willing to fight to the death for their food. I don’t remember any dog prior to bear not being good aggressive. Granted I wasn’t looking to test the theory out on all them. That pink collar puppy for instance, I believe if I walked in there and attempted to take the bone, she would bite me. If I stood there and used presence however, I’m fairly certain she would have yielded to the pressure and gave up the bone. A female used to have was dominant, aggressive and a resource guarder. Another dog couldn’t have food in the same area at all with her. I watched her go bowl to bowl(two other dogs) and simply run off the other dogs. She wasn’t even eating. I think that it’s a much more complex topic than what is shown here. I’ve seen Cion take a lot of things from Bear, and Bear pretty much never take from Cion? Does that mean Cion is the dominant dog? Absolutely not. I’ve never seen Cion push Bear around. Anytime I’ve seen Cion get overly rambunctious and violate Bears space when he didn’t want him to he was corrected. Not physically or through growling. A simple look that someone not familiar with dog behavior could easily miss. It’s something similar to David’s video of valor and his corso, except there’s a lot less theatrics. I think who gets what starts at simple desire. If the desire is equal than rank and aggression will come into play.


I agree about resource guarding and the complexities of social hierarchies. The things you are talking about regarding bones is also a behavior that is well known in wolves. The alphas in the pack usually tolerate subordinates displays of aggression when defending their bones and they don't really make a big deal of it.

However, keep in mind that in this instance we are talking about puppies, which are the same age, that have not gone through social maturity. 

When I think of "rank drive" - please see definitions I posted above - you can think of it as a scale.

Here the Volhard puppy test ranks the rank lol:

Mostly 1’s 
Strong desire to be pack leader and is not shy about bucking for a promotion Has a predisposition to be aggressive to people and other dogs and will bite Should only be placed into a very experienced home where the dog will be trained and worked on a regular basis Top Dog Tips: Stay away from the puppy with a lot of 1’s or 2’s. It has lots of leadership aspirations and may be difficult to manage. This puppy needs an experienced home. Not good with children. 

Mostly 2’s 
Also has leadership aspirations May be hard to manage and has the capacity to bite Has lots of self-confidence Should not be placed into an inexperienced home Too unruly to be good with children and elderly people, or other animals Needs strict schedule, loads of exercise and lots of training Has the potential to be a great show dog with someone who understands dog behavior 



https://www.searchdogs.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Volhard-Puppy-Aptitude-Test.pdf


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> In this particular situation, I would have been more proactive about it.
> I know the dog gets car sick, and I know we need to go for drives. I'm going to make it a thing to work on that. Gravol and short trips, lots of short trips.
> Trips to the park, trips to get ice cream, trips around the block. I'm going to do everything I can to convince my dog that nothing bad is going to happen on my watch.
> Any time something bad does happen, you double down and erase it with positive stuff.
> ...


Thanks for the input. Believe me, I knew of all the basic tricks to deal with car sickness. 

Pavlov used a system to differentiate four basic types of higher nervous system activity, which are named after bodily fluids, and this where the term "nerve" comes from.

If you knew the name of my boy's nerve type, would you still implement the same strategy you suggest 

I'll give you a clue: *"Bile"* - LOL


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> It's funny
> 
> I have worked a dog from **** and Selena, and progeny of course, and I enjoyed conversations with them on another forum. Nice dogs. Hard as nails. Social. Very physically imposing dogs. While they could handle anything, and it could be argued that early application of pressure in obedience contributed to their hardiness, I believe that this introduction to increasing pressure can be applied in any way that doesn't break the dog or the relationship. I'm not presuming to know more about the raising of working dogs than the Van Leeuwen family.
> 
> ...


Truthfully, I'm not really interested in owning Dutch Shepherds but I cited "van leeuwen" because there is a consensus that they produce some hard, dominant dogs that are apparently too tough for some experienced K9 handlers.

It sounds like from your statements above that van leeuwen is using Koehler style obedience ? That is interesting.

I am wondering if you could provide a couple of examples of how you apply "increasing pressure" ?

Also, I'm really curious what type of behaviors are van leewen type dogs showing that are causing experienced law enforcement to return dogs ?

Do you really think a simple forced down, using less leash pressure than a dog pulling on a leash, performed on a four month old puppy is going to "break" the dog or cause long term relationship problems ? 

I'm not trying to argue with you or your experience. I'm just still trying to wrap my head around this as I've had conflict with all my dogs in some form and have never had any noticeable long term relationship or bond issues.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> It just seems to me, that the pressure being used to force the down is less than the pressure of a dog pulling on the leash.


There's a difference between the dog being forced into a down and the dog pulling the leash to go towards what interests him.Opposite mindsets I think.
@Sabis mom here's something that popped up today that might interest you. I don't know which book it's from.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> Thanks for the input. Believe me, I knew of all the basic tricks to deal with car sickness.
> 
> Pavlov used a system to differentiate four basic types of higher nervous system activity, which are named after bodily fluids, and this where the term "nerve" comes from.
> 
> ...


Are you saying you think your dog is a phlegmatic?
Does not alter my thoughts at all.
The approach would work on any type the difference would show in the speed at which the animal adapted.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@dogma13 , love it. Dogs learn what they live. The more aggressive and pushy a dog is the more I counter with gentle and giving.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> Thanks for your input.
> 
> The only problem I have with your analysis is that Haz says this method is good for "ANY" dog. Not only that, the dog in his video is a dog going to police/security and Haz says the dog is a "sensitive" dog.
> 
> ...


I heard him say it could be used to teach any dog which I don’t necessarily agree with. I wouldn’t say it is good for any dog either. The issue here isn’t pressure, it’s conflict. There are a few dogs that I know personally that you run a high risk of being bitten attempting this technique. These are highly thought of dogs by many people. I don’t think a dog pulling on a prong while they’re walk-in is the same. I don’t necessarily think a dog that is hard to the handler is more prone to handler aggression than a handler sensitive one. I think there’s more that goes into it than that. I’m not going to go into anyone else’s dog. David can talk about his own dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> I agree about resource guarding and the complexities of social hierarchies. The things you are talking about regarding bones is also a behavior that is well known in wolves. The alphas in the pack usually tolerate subordinates displays of aggression when defending their bones and they don't really make a big deal of it.
> 
> However, keep in mind that in this instance we are talking about puppies, which are the same age, that have not gone through social maturity.
> 
> ...


The volhard stuff is too simple and paints with broad strokes I don’t agree with. I don’t believe a dominant dog is necessarily bad with kids. There were dominant dogs I grew up around who were phenomenal with kids.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jen84 said:


> Also, I'm really curious what type of behaviors are van leewen type dogs showing that are causing experienced law enforcement to return dogs ?


These lines are breed for very hard, dominant dogs with a high pain tolerance and a very high degree of fight. They are relatively dry in comparison to typical DS/Mal X's meaning their prey drive is not off the charts and they tend to have less interest is toys. Plus, getting a toy back from some of these dogs could lead to a potential fight. I think it is a matter of mutual respect in training these dogs and knowing how and when to use compulsion. Part of the issue is, it is one thing to raise this type of dog and handler it, but then, if the dog is sold as an adult for LE, the rank dynamics come into play, and you get K9 handlers of a similar mindset to the one in the video who slung the dog over his shoulder for no apparent reason and this type of dog will likely send him to the hospital. IMO, you really need not concern yourself with this forced down issue to establish leadership as you will not come into contact with a dog anything like van Leeuwen breeds. If a dog you are training is being truly disobedient, meaning you are sure he understands the behavior you are expecting and doesn't display the behavior as he was taught, a simple correction with a prong should suffice with the vast majority of dogs, rather than needing to prove your rank with things like a forced down. There are so many other more subtle things you can do in your relationship with your dog to establish your role as the leader.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> Truthfully, I'm not really interested in owning Dutch Shepherds but I cited "van leeuwen" because there is a consensus that they produce some hard, dominant dogs that are apparently too tough for some experienced K9 handlers.
> 
> It sounds like from your statements above that van leeuwen is using Koehler style obedience ? That is interesting.
> 
> ...


I don't have a lot of time to reply, and you bring up several points that could each constitute an entire topic of conversation.

Any comment from me on the training that happens before these are green dogs would be conjecture. My experience is with dogs that were tested and purchased, then sent to be trained.

Most of them want to fight you over corrections, toys, space. This goes away when they start to trust you. You control what the dog wants. You have the currency. If you successfully communicate to the dog how to access that currency, confusion and conflict decrease and trust goes up. If all you are is another human that is going to punish them into obedience, a strong dog will push back.

I would say those dogs that are labeled too tough for experienced handlers are worked primarily in escape, avoidance training. If that is your primary go to, you will need a big stick to handle a tough dog. And that's how working dogs were trained back in the 70s and 80s. Some trainers are still like this. That's what they know.

Increasing pressure goes back to foundation training, not green dog stuff. As an example, I will put Valor in a stand in heel, throw a bumper, even if he holds the stand I will apply rearward pressure on a prong, the pressure is released as the fetch command is given. This pressure and duration is increased over time.

No, I don't think a forced down will ruin your relationship with your dog. I think a forced down with an adult dog that already doesn't trust you will just increase that distrust, so I see no point in it. You are speaking apples and zebras. A dog you are raising yourself and a green working dog candidate are 2 very different situations. You have all the time in the world to establish relationship with a pet. Not so much with a working dog, and mistakes can be costly and painful.

You hang a strong dog over your shoulder like in that video and you are going to the hospital.

Another valid point is what I want the down to be to the dog. I want it to be such a strong habit that it's like a lizard brain reflex. It is the most important command for a dog that will operate off leash in dangerous environments. I want a million reps on that dog in every possible situation in training. I also want it at distance, on top of objects, the hood of a car, in a room without me, during a firefight. Yes, proofing with corrections is necessary, but building that strong habit happens through reps, rewards and relationship IMO.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> There's a difference between the dog being forced into a down and the dog pulling the leash to go towards what interests him.Opposite mindsets I think.


My point was that I don't think the procedure is abusive.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Are you saying you think your dog is a phlegmatic?
> Does not alter my thoughts at all.
> The approach would work on any type the difference would show in the speed at which the animal adapted.


Choleric. I'm saying his car sickness probably had a genetic component attached to it and all it needed was time. No need to push it IMO. When I did go for a drive to test where he was at, I would make sure to leave him in the truck when we got home - and give him a nice high value bone to chew on while in the truck. Of course, I performed a few other tricks as well. I also had gravol too.

I was working from home and would test him every couple weeks to see where he was at. When I went to town, and between that time, I took this opportunity to leave him at home alone so that he would get used to it and avoid any possible separation anxiety problems. I'm with this dog 24/7 - we are like two peas in pod lol

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, I'm just saying for where live, the circumstances, the super cold temperatures - I got him in January - my decision was to limit his drives while at the same time getting him very comfortable with truck without actually driving.

The point is, conflict can happen even with all the best plans and a good dog can deal with it.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I heard him say it could be used to teach any dog which I don’t necessarily agree with. I wouldn’t say it is good for any dog either. The issue here isn’t pressure, it’s conflict. There are a few dogs that I know personally that you run a high risk of being bitten attempting this technique. These are highly thought of dogs by many people. I don’t think a dog pulling on a prong while they’re walk-in is the same. I don’t necessarily think a dog that is hard to the handler is more prone to handler aggression than a handler sensitive one. I think there’s more that goes into it than that. I’m not going to go into anyone else’s dog. David can talk about his own dog.


Okay. I was writing fast before I left. I'll take back "good". 

Believe me, if I performed a mechanical down on my adult male right now - he would get super angry and a bite would be imminent. And this a dog that will go "down" on just the movement of my hand or a soft verbal command. But, like I said before, I was talking about a 4 month old puppy.

My point, was that I don't see the mechanical down as being abusive.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> The volhard stuff is too simple and paints with broad strokes I don’t agree with. I don’t believe a dominant dog is necessarily bad with kids. There were dominant dogs I grew up around who were phenomenal with kids.


I think you're missing the point. The point isn't about whether dominant dog is safe with kids, but rather to illustrate that dogs have different personalities and some are more dominant and submissive; hence, "rank drive".


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> These lines are breed for very hard, dominant dogs with a high pain tolerance and a very high degree of fight. They are relatively dry in comparison to typical DS/Mal X's meaning their prey drive is not off the charts and they tend to have less interest is toys. Plus, getting a toy back from some of these dogs could lead to a potential fight. I think it is a matter of mutual respect in training these dogs and knowing how and when to use compulsion. Part of the issue is, it is one thing to raise this type of dog and handler it, but then, if the dog is sold as an adult for LE, the rank dynamics come into play, and you get K9 handlers of a similar mindset to the one in the video who slung the dog over his shoulder for no apparent reason and this type of dog will likely send him to the hospital. IMO, you really need not concern yourself with this forced down issue to establish leadership as you will not come into contact with a dog anything like van Leeuwen breeds. If a dog you are training is being truly disobedient, meaning you are sure he understands the behavior you are expecting and doesn't display the behavior as he was taught, a simple correction with a prong should suffice with the vast majority of dogs, rather than needing to prove your rank with things like a forced down. There are so many other more subtle things you can do in your relationship with your dog to establish your role as the leader.


Yes, mutual respect are my exact thoughts.

So what do you think about these German Shepherds that are being raised by experienced handlers, from what I read, and the dogs still send them to the hospital ?

For example, what type of aggression was coming from Tyson ?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I don't have a lot of time to reply, and you bring up several points that could each constitute an entire topic of conversation.
> 
> Any comment from me on the training that happens before these are green dogs would be conjecture. My experience is with dogs that were tested and purchased, then sent to be trained.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your time Dave. Sorry, I haven't been too quick to reply myself as things have started to get a little busy around here.

I agree with you that you can't just hammer the dog and expect to have a relationship; you have to be smarter in dealing with these types of dogs.

Believe me, I would never try a forced down on an adult dog - not even my own.

Yes, I noticed that dog in the police video didn't have much fight and seemed very submissive to handler.

Speaking of that police video, I know you and Haz have spoken before and I thought you might like to hear his analysis of it:






Thanks again for the input.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don't know about Tyson but there is a difference between experienced and skilled. I mentioned before that there are too many K9 handlers (think of the one in the video with the dog over his shoulder) who might be experienced but still incompetent. One person I know imported a very dominant, forwardly aggressive Mal X from KNPV lines and he had to withhold food for ten days before the dog would let him come into his kennel. He taught the dog not to bite the hand that feeds him and had relatively little trouble managing the dog after that but the dog still required vigilant handling.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

"All you idiots out there that are in the business of training dogs that want to tell people that dominance doesn't exist, rank dominance in dogs 100% exists" - Haz


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don't know about Tyson but there is a difference between experienced and skilled. I mentioned before that there are too many K9 handlers (think of the one in the video with the dog over his shoulder) who might be experienced but still incompetent. One person I know imported a very dominant, forwardly aggressive Mal X from KNPV lines and he had to withhold food for ten days before the dog would let him come into his kennel. He taught the dog not to bite the hand that feeds him and had relatively little trouble managing the dog after that but the dog still required vigilant handling.


"Tyson was a great dog out of great parents, produced well with the right female, Joerg bought Tyson(2 years old) because no one was able to handle his aggression, he trained him and started with him on the BSP,LGA,FCI and so on." - Staatsmacht


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Are you referring to Tyson von der Schiffslache?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> The point is, conflict can happen even with all the best plans and a good dog can deal with it.





Jen84 said:


> My point, was that I don't see the mechanical down as being abusive.


No one said that it was abusive. No one is saying that conflict won’t happen or that you won’t be fine when it does. What I am saying is that you should avoid unnecessarily introducing conflict when you don’t need to. Sure you add conflict between you and the dog , you may be fine. You keep adding conflict and you’re going to start running into problems. Eventually with the right dog you’ll end up with a fight. How much conflict it takes to get there varies with the dog. You won’t to stay as far away from that as you can however. You do that by not introducing conflict where you don’t need to. A better question is to ask Haz why it’s not his method of choice. I think that it’s not his method of choice is telling since he’s the one teaching it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> My point was that I don't think the procedure is abusive.


I don't think it's abusive at all. I use escape training for lots of pets, particularly when they don't possess much drive for food or toys.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Are you referring to Tyson von der Schiffslache?


Yes. Chip, if you double-click the quote it takes you there.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> No one said that it was abusive. No one is saying that conflict won’t happen or that you won’t be fine when it does. What I am saying is that you should avoid unnecessarily introducing conflict when you don’t need to. Sure you add conflict between you and the dog , you may be fine. You keep adding conflict and you’re going to start running into problems. Eventually with the right dog you’ll end up with a fight. How much conflict it takes to get there varies with the dog. You won’t to stay as far away from that as you can however. You do that by not introducing conflict where you don’t need to. A better question is to ask Haz why it’s not his method of choice. I think that it’s not his method of choice is telling since he’s the one teaching it.


Creating unnecessary conflict is obvious.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> Creating unnecessary conflict is obvious.


This technique creates unnecessary conflict.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> This technique creates unnecessary conflict.


Appreciate the opinion.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

My dog is bred 4-3 on Tyson and likely gets some of his aggression from him.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> My dog is bred 4-3 on Tyson and likely gets some of his aggression from him.


I was a aware of that. I was just curious if you had more insight to where the aggression stems from because apparently he was hard to handle. Do you know if this was social/dominant aggression or just high active defensive aggression plus sharpness ?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don't know. I would think sharpness is the least likely factor. Aggression is typically not one dimensional with different traits being a factor.The breeder of my dog worked him in bite work and said he was a very nice dog. He had a chance to buy him but passed. I'm guessing the price was an issue.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> My point was that I don't think the procedure is abusive.


Ok,gotcha


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am not a trainer. I'm not even all that smart. I started out as what is called a last chance foster because problem dogs work well for me. I don't know why, they just do. 
Training dogs is like a recipe. You add a pinch of this, a dash of that. For every single dog the recipe is different.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I am not a trainer. I'm not even all that smart. I started out as what is called a last chance foster because problem dogs work well for me. I don't know why, they just do.
> Training dogs is like a recipe. You add a pinch of this, a dash of that. For every single dog the recipe is different.


I like having dogs with different personalities and temperaments. What works for one doesn’t always work for the other. I think it helps me learn and keeps me from going into auto pilot.


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## AKD (Jul 18, 2020)

Great thread, I don't have much to contribute but good discussion and learning. One think I have learned training Trinity is clear and consistent communication is the most important, there should be no confusion in her mind as to what is expected.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

All those different training methods and tools are developed just with this one goal in mind - make the communication clear and consistent. It’s not easy even though there are some dogs that will make us look so good and the training process effortless. My previous dog was like that. I was constantly asked who trained him, and I could not take the credit, he was just a very very good dog. 

Then we get dogs that bring us back to earth and make us work our behinds off to get to that “very good dog” end result. That’s when we start opening and reading threads like this one


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