# Locked in Prey



## cliffson1

I know a lot of people think that I am anti-show breeding...and I am! But I am also anti-sport breeding and I think it is detrimental to the breed and I see some impacts from this type breeding that correlates with show breeding. "Lock in Prey" is a phenomena that I often see today with certain types of sport dogs, that you never saw in the breed thirty years ago. Often this type of dog is characterized by intense staring at the object to the point that the dog cannot bark. These dogs are so focused on the prey object that they do not have an ear to the handler. These type of dogs would go through a hedge to chase a ball rather than look to go around it. These dogs often have great grips and exciting long bites, but I really think they are extremes that are not balanced for the utility and versatility the breed is known for. Often, when you see these dogs and examine their pedigree you will find an abundance of Fero and the T litter Nachbarschaft just as you have Canto/Quanto in WGSL or Lance/Sundance in ASL. 
My point is the breeding formula that created the Showlines seems to be taking hold in the sport world. 
I do not think this healthy in the long run for the breed.


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## JakodaCD OA

Cliff I hope your working on that book! I want the first copy and signed of course


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## Catu

I like the type of dog you describe... for when I buy a Mali. In the meantime I want my GSDs keep being thinking dogs.


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## krystyne73

My GSD is like that lol she would crash through a brick wall to get her frisbee. She can walk by people waving food at her at the lake but stay completely focused on her ball in the water.


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## JakodaCD OA

well Masi is frisbee obsessed but she wouldn't crash thru a brick wall to get it She most likely would try to climb it

A couple of times I've gotten her frisbee stuck on the roof of my shed, so I'll go in and get another, usually she'll have none of that, and will sit by the shed looking at me, looking at the roof, look at me,,like "ok you threw it you get it"

Thankfully I haven't experienced the "lock on prey" with any of my gsd's, where they become so focused on something that I'm tuned out. I would prefer not to be "tuned" out when it comes to anything.


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## cliffson1

I remember when we had over 250 dogs at Ft. Benning, Ga. After three years you get to know the traits of all the dogs there,(especially since on weekends you worked alone and had to feed and water all of them). Anyway, as I think on it we didn't have any that had prey drive to THAT extent. We had the narc dogs and bomb dogs(aggressive method of training) who had to have strong prey drive, and of course many many other specialty dogs,(Sentry, tracker, Scout, Body recovery, Mine and Tunnel, Demo, etc), but none of these dogs were this kind of over the top in drive.
I mean if we look at it the drive itself,(prey), is used to hunt, with chasing and gripping as offshoots of the behavoir. It is also beneficial in herding in keeping sheep in flock(chasin) and sometimes having to exert influence(gripping). Still, this drive was always under the control of the commands of the Shepherd and the dog's discernment/disgression. 
This breed is the ultimate example of the dog working with man in sync to perform complex operations, thus becoming the versatile utility dog extraordinaire. I do not think these dogs exhibit this kind of working with man temperament, unless it is hammered into the dog with things like prong collars or electric; and they also require "almost" a master trainer to get them to certain points. 
To me this isn't "Shepherd" temperament.


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## Jax08

Jax can be 'locked in prey' when it comes to an animal. I watched her shoot right thru an electric fence to go chase goats. She'll crash through anything to chase a cat (that isn't one of hers). She's so deep in prey mode she *can't* hear me yelling for her. Drives me nuts! She came from an animal shelter as a puppy so I don't know what her background is. But if this is the case, then I would say that prey drive has leaked into the BYB's and is going out to people that are completely unprepared for it.


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## cliffson1

One other thing as I reflect on the breed today, the over the top prey drive does not stop the dog from being a great family pet!!! Why??? Because the nerve strength of the dogs allows the dog to be fine in the house and in domestic situations. I must reiterate this before it reinforces some people's misconception that high drive dogs can't be great family dogs.
Where I am coming from is if the sport breeders keep using dogs from these popular lines and breed for more and more drive; then nerve base and other health issues will become problematic. The show people couldn't see what they were creating with only using select lines until they were so deep into it; it was all they knew, and were addicted and unwilling to bring balance back to the equation. (This is why I respect Andaka for using DDR lines in her breedingand opening up genetic diversity). This is why many savy sport breeders are mixing Czech lines with West lines. Some of the early foundation sport dogs in Belgium/Holland had influxes of DDR dogs in the nineties. But it seems today GS breeders are often trying to "run with the Mals". This comes with a price,IMO.
Okay, I'm off my soapbox, but I think this issue is worthy of dialogue and analysis. The INTENT of breeding will take you off the right path even with tiles and Certs, that's why there is such a disparity between WGSL and WGWL. Both have titles and Certs but many SL are breeding for beauty, and many WL are breeding for points, and they all should be breeding for utility.! Peace!


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> I know a lot of people think that I am anti-show breeding...and I am! But I am also anti-sport breeding and I think it is detrimental to the breed and I see some impacts from this type breeding that correlates with show breeding. "Lock in Prey" is a phenomena that I often see today with certain types of sport dogs, that you never saw in the breed thirty years ago. Often this type of dog is characterized by intense staring at the object to the point that the dog cannot bark. These dogs are so focused on the prey object that they do not have an ear to the handler. These type of dogs would go through a hedge to chase a ball rather than look to go around it. These dogs often have great grips and exciting long bites, but I really think they are extremes that are not balanced for the utility and versatility the breed is known for. Often, when you see these dogs and examine their pedigree you will find an abundance of Fero and the T litter Nachbarschaft just as you have Canto/Quanto in WGSL or Lance/Sundance in ASL.
> My point is the breeding formula that created the Showlines seems to be taking hold in the sport world.
> I do not think this healthy in the long run for the breed.



How come I am a villain when I say this???? Couldn't agree with you more.........

Lee


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## onyx'girl

Lee, I am really glad that you've been active on the board again. 
I think the dog I am working right now is not a prey monster, but has plenty of drive. He is a thinker and balanced....if only my handling skills were better to do him justice.


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## JanaeUlva

Michael Ellis talks about the balance you are describing in one of his DVDs. I agree with you and I have to fight that feeling that Minka isn't "energetic" enough when in actuality she is intense but not to the point of losing her awareness. Funny you should bring this up because this morning I was having a game of fetch with the Lab and Minka. The Lab has that ball drive that is crazy over the top. And half the time he looses track of what's going on (I have two balls in play since Minka is so fast). She knows where both balls are all the time and knows if he missed his. She will grab her ball and run over to his, pointing it out to him. Even in the dark she knows where the balls are, and he is absolutely lost when he can't see the balls. There are times he is unaware that i even threw the ball when we are playing in the dark. And I've thought to myself that he might have that intense focus that everybody seems to like but i'd rather retain the balance of drive and thinking. Cool. Your post has made me feel like Minka is on the right track.


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## London's Mom

I've had about 3 GSDs that were "locked in prey". My first was Minerva. She would obscess over squirrels. She probably caught about 40 throughout her 14 years of life. But I was very successful in teaching her NOT to run into the street after a squirrel. She was the most obedient Shepherd I've ever known. (I found her living under some bleachers in a park.)

I was walking her off-leash (as I always did with her) and we were in a city park which had perimeter city streets. She spotted a squirrel and darted. The squirrel ran into traffic on a busy street and I called "MINERVA" once and she stopped DEAD at the curb. She knew that she was NEVER to run into the street no matter how bad she wanted that squirrel. I am still amazed how she figured that one out.

Minerva was an exceptional dog. I would NEVER attempt to allow any of my other shepherds to even come close to a street off leash. Although, I do feel that I am working on that with my London. He is VERY focused on me.

He is heavy into chasing deer. I have taught him NEVER to lunge at ANYTHING while on the leash. Simply becuase he almost ripped my arm out of the socket when he was aobut 9 months. So the other day, he was on leash and 4 huge deer ran right in front of us. He did not even give a slight pull. He looked at them and then "left it alone." I was VERY proud (and happy that my arm was not jolted!).


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## cliffson1

Hey Lee,
Its all good!!...I have the show people and the sport people that look at my posts with annoyance. I've even had my toughness and confidence questioned....Big lol....I love this breed, fortunately I have seen, as have you, a shifting of the paradigm of the breed. I am so glad you have also seen this shifting....doesn't make us anything but observant based on experience.
I just had an opportunity to import a male puppy out of Mac vd Kine. He's a dog I like the genetics on and have commented on in this forum in the past. But after carefully examining the breeding; the puppy would have been like 4,5-4 ,5 on the T litter Nacbarschaft. I declined, it was just too much for my taste. Oh Well...and I really like Mac's breeding, but it would have to be with a female that opens up the genetics. I try to practice what I preach.


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## Zahnburg

Cliff,
It is not only the breeding, but also (and perhaps moreso) the training that is creating this.


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## Jason L

Off topic but, Jane, I just love Karlo!!! ... and you owe me a video!


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## cliffson1

Art,
The training is part, but the over use of Fero and the T litter Nacbarschaft is genetics. Go to any contemporary west working dog of today and see if Fero isn't there multiple times. Its hard to find any Fero free, and now they are starting to make it numerous generations. The bottleneck genepool leads to problems no matter what the lines.


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## elisabeth_00117

Cliff, I noticed this too with a dog in our club.

He has Fero on the top and bottom - he is so fixed (not just focused, but fixed) on that ball that when it is out in play or for reward he doesn't see or hear anything else - his handler included.

I want a ball (prey) motivated dog, but not like that.

I posted a few weeks ago about what I was looking for and I specifically mentioned "not over the top in prey" because that is what I am seeing. I want high prey drive for training but not so over the top that I am less important to the dog that the item they are fixated on.

Besides Fero and the T litter, what other dogs/lines would you consider to be like this?


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## Zahnburg

Cliff,

I am not disagreeing with you. However, my point is that the way many (if not most) people train encourages this problem. I would venture to say that 98% of helpers that I have come across are "locked in prey".


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## elisabeth_00117

Do you think that starting the dog too early would be one way the helpers are encouraging this? Focusing on prey from such a young age then trying to get the dog to switch gears and work out of defense once they mature?


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## Zahnburg

@elisabeth,

Yes, of course. Why work the dog before he can give the helper all the tools that he needs?


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> Hey Lee,
> Its all good!!...I have the show people and the sport people that look at my posts with annoyance. I've even had my toughness and confidence questioned....Big lol....I love this breed, fortunately I have seen, as have you, a shifting of the paradigm of the breed. I am so glad you have also seen this shifting....doesn't make us anything but observant based on experience.
> I just had an opportunity to import a male puppy out of Mac vd Kine. He's a dog I like the genetics on and have commented on in this forum in the past. But after carefully examining the breeding; the puppy would have been like 4,5-4 ,5 on the T litter Nacbarschaft. I declined, it was just too much for my taste. Oh Well...and I really like Mac's breeding, but it would have to be with a female that opens up the genetics. I try to practice what I preach.


It is exceedingly hard to avoid more Fero - having had 3 Fero free females, it is very difficult to find a Fero free male...


When I first started in the sport, I was at a training session, and a pup - 8, 9 mo old from a Fero daughter was backtied watching some other dogs work, the pup was just over the top prey, screaming, shrieking thrashing - the trainer paused - looked at her - and said "where is Fero in her pedigree?" This trainer had had a Fero son from Tiekerhook. Since then, I have watched that same extreme behavior so many times....

It is a two faced coin - the genetics and the training 

Lee


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## Zahnburg

Lee,

It is a one sided coin. The genetics will be changed to match the trianing.


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## Nelly

Cliffson1,

While you are talking about schutzhund, what about herding ? dogs which have trouble containing themselves around sheep would also be related to what you are talking about.


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## elisabeth_00117

Very true.


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## cliffson1

Art, my apologies...you are 100% right...the training of today and the results trying to be achieved(long flying bite and full unmovable grips, flashy obedience), definitely push people to breed to dogs that further these elements. 
Its funny, its hard to have integrity in breeding in my opinion. I see people who are practitioners of the specialties,(show,sport,pet,money), who either don't understand this or are so caught up in it they put the specialty over the well being of the breed. And though many are sincere people, and some knowledgable, they CANNOT be objective about what is being produced much less go against it. Oh Well


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## Vandal

I think this topic has been discussed more than a few times. I know I have made almost all the comments in this thread in years past.

Here is the truth of the matter though. There is no market for a German Shepherd Dog any longer. The market is for sport dogs, or show dogs. People looking for "pets" are also drawn to those places. If you breed German Shepherds, no one wants them. They are, once again, too attracted to what is on the papers and not attracted enough in what is in the dog .

People offer up videos constantly of GSDs who behave like Malinois and the comments afterward are all positive. People are excited and addicted to flash and the only way to get that flash, ( at least in the realm of the average trainer's ability), is with toys and treats. Therefore, you have to have a dog who will respond to that. When the dog doesn't, he is no good according to the many SchH experts who only know one way to train. The dogs who truely DO want to work for their handlers are discarded for the new "jacked up" model.

Just like I did with the show dogs, I have talked about it for over a decade now, both on boards and to people at clubs. Most of it has fallen on deaf ears. I am just living in the past. I read someone on the PDB boasting about the ability of certain trainers and saying that "the sport" had passed by some of the older, more well known trainers. It was typical for what has taken over SchH now but what struck me is that SchH has not just passed by trainers, it has passed by the German Shepherd. It no longer suits a real GSD, it is for Malinois. To be clear, it used to be especially suited for the abilities of the GSD but the changes in the rules, judging and the training, has turned it into something that is well beneath the abilities of a GSD. People are not doing Schutzhund any longer, even if they think they are.


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## GSDElsa

I agree with everything said. It does seem that there are a lot of dogs out there that can go "either way" with their genetics...be prey monsters or not. But that a lot of people are training with the prey monster in mind...and choosing not to bring out the defense in the dogs even if the dog is perfectly capable.

So here's food for thought. I went out to a Ringsport club that is forming near me yesterday to watch dogs work (I might join if they let me go do OB there and let the local SchH people do some bitework during the better weather because it's about 5 minutes from my house). I have heard people repeatedly say how much more "real" Ringsport is than SchH, even if it it gear towards those prey-monster Mals. I'm sure there are many ways to train and opinions on the matter......but those dogs are the WORST case of "locked in prey" that I've ever seen! After asking when they were going to bring in defense work with the one dog, I was told "never"...it's just one big prey game to him. The dog I watched was definitely talented and I really liked him...but I went in there thinking I was going to see a sport much different than what I saw. I guess I just don't see how much "pressure" is on the dog hanging off the leg of the decoy by first front two teeth and the decoy shooting a gun at him when the dog is treating it all like a crazy fun game....

I'm sure there are different approaches people take to doing Ringsport. This is probably one. Some of the excersices looked liek a blast, though. The "basket guarding" is something fun and the backwards heeling transport looks pretty wild.

I'm curious if the "always work in prey" is totally common with ringsport since it is so Mal centric?


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## lesslis

I'm only a few years into SchH and have learned much from all on this board. Thank you.
If SchH is now not the best for overall breed testing, creating a bond, or just having fun with the GSD what is? Is there any other sport that tests all aspects of this breed? SDA?,(my personal favorite that won't seem to take off) Agility?, Herding? Ring sports? I want to create the best possible bond with my dog but not sure I want to invest more time or money in SchH if it's not going to give me that anymore.


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## GSDElsa

lesslis said:


> I'm only a few years into SchH and have learned much from all on this board. Thank you.
> If SchH is now not the best for overall breed testing, creating a bond, or just having fun with the GSD what is? Is there any other sport that tests all aspects of this breed? SDA?,(my personal favorite that won't seem to take off) Agility?, Herding? *Ring sports?* I want to create the best possible bond with my dog but not sure I want to invest more time or money in SchH if it's not going to give me that anymore.


That's what I was just saying..I"ve heard people allude to maybe they'll switch to Ringsport since SchH isn't real enough..........but from what I saw yesterday it's taking the "prey monder" issue of SchH 10-fold. At least at this club....obviously it's a limited example since it's the one and only time I have seen it. But I definitely don't think it's the route to go. Maybe with some heavy modifications?


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## wolfstraum

I don't agree - dogs will wash out with one trainer because the dog does not fit the trainer's methods - but excel with another trainer....the advances in training - from compulsion to clicker - evolve alongside changing breeding goals - the hard headed stubborn lines are favored by the complusion oriented trainers, and the biddable eager to please lines sought out by the more motivational trainers...as the psychology of training has evolved, so has breeding for dogs to fit that training....so it is two sides of the same coin...

Lee


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## Catu

Maybe it has something to be with the fact that prey is something easy to breed for. You get a male known for producing prey drive (Fero is an example, but I can think of local examples too) and you will get that. Breed two dogs with great solid nerves and cross your fingers about what you will get, because nerves as a characteristics and its inheritance is far more complex.

I see it often in show-line breeders. They want to improve working ability? Then they introduce a dog with prey drive into their lines and consider their homework done.


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## Vandal

You don't agree with what Lee? 

I use compulsion and I do not favor "stubborn" dogs. For me, there is no such thing as stubborn in dogs but that is another topic. Perhaps people are confusing "stubborn" with higher thresholds and I think that is part of the problem. 
People have mostly lost the ability to work with GSDs who act like them. As I have said before, they look to Mal trainers for advice on training. That has always baffled me. What do they know about a GSD? Even if they did have one in the past or work a few at the club, it ain't the same. Those are grapefruit and oranges. Might be similar in some ways but not at all in others...at least they didn't used to be. 

SchH is nothing like it used to be. In some ways it is good but in many ways it is the cause of the problems we now see in the breed.


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## debbiebrown

i think your totally right on with this Cliff.....i have a WGSD with these lines, and the lock on prey drive is a total obsession and almost impossible to keep focus......i don't like it at all its quite extreme without a balance to go with it........i can definitely attest to this...........


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## JKlatsky

Zahnburg said:


> Cliff,
> 
> I am not disagreeing with you. However, my point is that the way many (if not most) people train encourages this problem. I would venture to say that 98% of helpers that I have come across are "locked in prey".



This is where my brain went when I saw this topic. 

Dogs will approach protection work in prey because that's how they've been taught to view it. The impulse for people to get a high prey drive puppy and start it immediately in prey puppy circles, starting prey drive building exercises with a flirt pole, create these locked in prey problems before the dog is even 5 months old. And a dog with good nerves will be more likely to be locked in prey because from what I've seen when people go to create suspicion in that older dog to bring out the defense the strong nerved confident prey dog just seems to accept the punishment without ever making it into defense. 

My experiences with my high prey drive dogs with low thresholds has been NOT to encourage prey drive because it already exists in spades- Why on Earth would I need more? This doesn't take master training- what it takes is NO training.  And when the puppy is old enough- teach it protection as protection, not as a game. Balanced training will show a more balanced dog. There are several trainers I know that prefer not to work puppies in protection. When you look at 2, 2 year old dogs- both raised with the intent of working, but one that was started at 8 weeks in protection and one that was started at a year...there really won't be much difference in where the dogs are in terms of the training but I would bet most of the time that the dog started later will have less problems than the dog started young. 

I agree that there should be a goal of balance in the breeding of dogs, that constantly throwing together low threshold high prey dog to high prey dog will result in something so crazy that it is practically unworkable...but I can only think of 1 dog that I've seen was so over the top it was difficult to manage. Most of the other "prey" dogs I've seen were more on the created side. And I really don't think you can lay all the blame on the back of Fero. My 3-3 Fero male certainly has plenty of prey, but he also has a lot of fight in his guard work, and none of the screaming out of his mind obsessiveness. I can understand why maybe you wouldn't want to add any more...but I think newbies reading this might jump to Fero=Bad.


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## jesusica

JKlatsky said:


> This is where my brain went when I saw this topic.


Me as well.

I have to wonder, since I've not been around long enough to have witnessed first-hand this evolution, which came first? A shortage of helpers that know how to work a GSD thus making only the prey-crazy dogs successful OR prey-crazy dogs making the skills of the helper less relevant thus fewer helpers that know how to work a GSD?


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## Liesje

I know this is no excuse, but sometimes I see handlers that make me feel relieved they are just working a prey dog in prey because anything else might be too much. On this forum and others I consistently see posts referring to protection work as a "game" and people who seem abhored that a German Shepherd would actually show some real aggression and fight when the situation calls for it. I've also seen some people that IMO just would be more of a liability trying to train and handle a "real" dog. Does the helper/club turn everyone away, or try to work with people and their dogs at the level that's most appropriate? Some people seem perfectly content to have a prey dog and work obedience and protection in prey. They can work their dog and have fun and get titles. I guess this just goes back to whether or not it's appropriate for the breed to be everything to everyone...


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## JKlatsky

Liesje said:


> I know this is no excuse, but sometimes I see handlers that make me feel relieved they are just working a prey dog in prey because anything else might be too much. On this forum and others I consistently see posts referring to protection work as a "game" and people who seem abhored that a German Shepherd would actually show some real aggression and fight when the situation calls for it. I've also seen some people that IMO just would be more of a liability trying to train and handle a "real" dog. Does the helper/club turn everyone away, or try to work with people and their dogs at the level that's most appropriate? Some people seem perfectly content to have a prey dog and work obedience and protection in prey. They can work their dog and have fun and get titles. I guess this just goes back to whether or not it's appropriate for the breed to be everything to everyone...



Definitely an interesting point. With lows in membership and participation in SchH and the organizations...I wonder how much more of it is being marketed towards AKC folks as "something else fun to do with your dog" and the training follows just to get people in the door and paying??


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## Liesje

It may be a separate issue, but linked to this debate. Do we market the sport only for purists, or do we want new people to get involved? I think a lot of people flock toward the prey dogs because they look fast and flashy and are easy to train with a toy. The dogs place high at international competitions and bark a lot and appear engaged so on the surface give the appearance of the "ideal" dog. I know of a few dogs that have people in awe yet make me want to leave the room when they come in for their turn. Sometimes the neurotic prey drive just makes ME start to feel anxious! But many people learn along the way and end up getting a stronger, more balanced dog the second time around. I think there's definitely a learning curve, both with the sport/training and with the dogs people buy over a lifetime.


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## Vandal

It is being marketed that way and nowadays, aggression in dogs is really frowned on and creates an over-reaction in just about everyone. I was at a club today and I heard an exchange between a new handler and the helper. The helper said to the handler " your dog needs to be worked in prey". It was clear that the dog had aggression and with the right work , could have been quite a nice dog. I heard the helper say to the handler, "we will work him in prey because we don't want him to be a dangerous dog". Now, this is not the first time I have heard someone say this. I was totally shocked one day when a SchH judge said that to me about why he works his dogs in prey. We then had a little debate about that because first of all, that makes NO SENSE! If the dog's natural drives are such that he can be protective and aggressive, you certainly do not try to pave that over with prey work. Why? Because you can't change the dog's character with training, that's why. A better answer would be you cannot train the dog here if they were worried about liability. IF they were going to allow the dog to be worked in protection, the answer is to work using the dog's aggression to teach him where it is appropriate! That has ALWAYS been the idea behind SchH protection but now, I hear more and more people saying what I quoted above. If a club feels like a dog is too aggressive and the handler irresponsible, they need to say so because like I said, trying to cover it up with prey work is not the answer. Yeah, I understand liability and trying to make it look like it is not "really" protection but if the dog bites someone, it won't matter HOW you trained him. So, it is much better to work the dog in a way that trains who the dog really is.


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## Liesje

But what about dogs like Cliff is talking about, dogs that really ARE primarily prey? Not covering up aggression or defense with prey, but a dog that is a prey dog. Do you wash it out and tell the handler to quit the club and/or get a new dog? Or do you continue to work a dog if it really is a prey dog? Some would consider it a washout, others seem to go out looking for that type of dog...


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## elisabeth_00117

Would allowing a dog to mature before starting any type of protection work "fix" this with most young dogs?

I know I didn't Stark in SchH until he was about a year, he works out of defense mostly. I wouldn't say he is high in any sort of drive (more on the low or high end of medium) but then again, I didn't tailor his training to this. 

For dogs that work out of prey "for real" what types of exercises and or training aids would be used to "fix" this or do you think that it would just cover it up? Or can you? Is a dog who is so prey driven just always going to work in that mind set?

Sorry, not sure if my questions make sense - I am trying to type out what I am thinking and not sure I am coming out clear enough..


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## Vandal

There have always been dogs like what Cliff is talking about. Just that people have taken some of that and bred it to more of it. I don't work puppies, so, I see far less of this problem than other people. I also can disturb a dog enough as the helper to bring up aggression. When you do that, you can really see who the dog is and this is where I see what the dogs are now, compared to some years back. 

As for your direct question. I have said it before, SchH was not and should not be for everyone. In trying to make it something for the general public to have "fun" doing, we have turned it into somewhat of a joke. Do you throw people out of SchH with a dog like that? I wouldn't but I would recommend another club. lol. I do not enjoy working a dog who comes in and begs for the sleeve without an once of aggression or ever laying an eye on my face. That is a farce, and not a funny one for me. So, the people who have created that in their dogs, belong with other trainers because I get grumpy when I work one of those.


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## elisabeth_00117

One thing I was surprised about with Stark - is that he could care less about the sleeve, our helper was impressed with the fact that he had his eye on the helper and wanted HIM not the sleeve. He has never been a dog that was sleeve oriented which I like and would like in my next pup/dog. I want my dog to show aggression when in protection, I want him to treat it as something "real" and not a game. 

I am finding that with the dogs I was researching (mostly WG to be honest) that this was showing up more and more. Which is why I started looking into other lines/dogs.


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## JKlatsky

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Would allowing a dog to mature before starting any type of protection work "fix" this with most young dogs?
> 
> I know I didn't Stark in SchH until he was about a year, he works out of defense mostly. I wouldn't say he is high in any sort of drive (more on the low or high end of medium) but then again, I didn't tailor his training to this.
> 
> For dogs that work out of prey "for real" what types of exercises and or training aids would be used to "fix" this or do you think that it would just cover it up? Or can you? Is a dog who is so prey driven just always going to work in that mind set?
> 
> Sorry, not sure if my questions make sense - I am trying to type out what I am thinking and not sure I am coming out clear enough..


I don't think you can "fix" a dog and change what it's genetic makeup gives you. Dogs need to find a balance however...and sometimes that balance isn't 50/50- sometimes it's 60/40 one way or another. 

I look at my dogs. I have a high prey drive dog, with a high threshold for defense, that was worked largely in prey as a puppy. There is a lot of aggression in his lines. BUT. He started out as a pet. I took a lot of prey drive out of him, then I overcompensated and put too much back in, make him hectic and little crazy. My bad. He was my 1st SchH dog and they are the ones we learn on. He works in prey in his protection work. He has a better bark than most, but I would say it's largely a demand bark (Doesn't stop him from getting full points in the B&H). Now we've tried to do some work with him to bring out more defense (cause it lives in there somewhere). We've tabled him, we've had to do some work to create suspicion, and I find the biggest problem I have is getting someone who can put him on edge enough to push him over into defense. I think for a dog to work in defense they HAVE to believe that there is a threat- and for a confident older dog who has learned that protection is a game- albeit a rough game...it's hard to create that concern. So, no I haven't really had any success moving him from his learned prey behaviors in guard work. And I've pretty much decided not to worry about it. It is what it is. He'll get his titles and I'll do better next time. 

I have also worked 2 of his younger brothers. Started them MUCH later. Actually haven't even really started Tag yet. We taught most of the biting behaviors ourselves with tugs in play- but not in the context of protection with a helper. We introduced a lot more suspicion in the beginning of their guard work, and sort of worked it in reverse...once they understood why they were barking, then we introduced the biting and the prey. The prey naturally wants to take over the defense, and calms the grip and the dog will still end up more prey than defense because that is the genetics on the dog...but the habit for protection work is established that it is "protection" and you avoid the prey locked dog who won't bark with any force.

In the end SchH as it exists is a competition. A Sport. There is nothing wrong with a dog doing well in sport work and all the hard work and training and ability should be commended. The problem exists when people think that the high level competition dogs should be the breeding dogs just by virtue of their scores. Personally, that's why I don't think every breeding dog needs to have a SchH3 to be worthy of breeding rights.


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## elisabeth_00117

Great explination.

I sometimes get so lost when reading these threads.. I'm learning! 

Thanks!


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## Catu

Liesje said:


> But many people learn along the way and end up getting a stronger, more balanced dog the second time around. I think there's definitely a learning curve, both with the sport/training and with the dogs people buy over a lifetime.


If you don't stop talking of me and my dogs I'm going to start feeling stalked!

JKlatsky, great post!


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## Fast

GSDElsa said:


> I'm curious if the "always work in prey" is totally common with ringsport since it is so Mal centric?


Yes that is pretty common.

But be aware that French Ring was a GSD sport also until the Malinois gain popularity in that sport.


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## JanaeUlva

Vandal said:


> There have always been dogs like what Cliff is talking about. Just that people have taken some of that and bred it to more of it. I don't work puppies, so, I see far less of this problem than other people. I also can disturb a dog enough as the helper to bring up aggression. When you do that, you can really see who the dog is and this is where I see what the dogs are now, compared to some years back.


when you say you don't work puppies is that because you find waiting to start the protection work brings about better results? If so, what age do you start working a dog? Recognizing that for each animal that might differ, however what would be the average age and maturity characteristics you are looking for? 

I am wondering because my puppy was started at 7 months. She is 9 months now.


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## gagsd

I am not Anne, and hopefully she will step in and answer your question.... but here is what my helper/TD says (according to my interpretation).

First, you are going to make training mistakes. Particularly in protection, these mistakes can have a much greater impact on a puppy. It is a lot easier to wait until they are older and more resilient.
Second, Protection work should use aggression. A young dog may not have developed anough aggression to use, or it may be there, but the young dog does not have the ability to control it and feel comfortable. So you can end up with a dog who is "locked in prey" or a dog who is working out of a very uncertain defense.

Age is something on a dog by dog basis. My TD recommends a year and a half and up. Everyone has different opinions on this topic for sure  .


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## GSDElsa

Fast said:


> Yes that is pretty common.
> 
> But be aware that French Ring was a GSD sport also until the Malinois gain popularity in that sport.


OK, if that is common, then how is ringsport "better" than SchH in terms of testing the dog (ie conflict, pressure, etc with decoy)? (not saying everyone agrees with this, but I"ve heard it before).


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## cliffson1

When do you start? Always a good question! This is one of the reasons I am going to Berhnard Flinks seminar next month with my 13 month male. Flinks, by being an excellent communicator, successful in sport, and a police dog instructor in Germany possesses my core values. My male at this point has nothing I don't like....big full grips, one circle on leash, then drops sleeve and focuses on the helper for more engagement. Big dog and very dominant so I want him worked by a trustworthy person to see where we are on same track in prey/defense work and where we may differ. At this point he has no issues for me, but when it comes to keeping good balanced development, a second set of eyes doesn't hurt.


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## Chris Wild

GSDElsa said:


> OK, if that is common, then how is ringsport "better" than SchH in terms of testing the dog (ie conflict, pressure, etc with decoy)? (not saying everyone agrees with this, but I"ve heard it before).


IMO, it's not. No sport is inherently prey oriented or serious, it's all in how one approaches it.

Many ring people will spout that it is more serious because the dogs bite a suit and thus "the man", or so they claim, whereas those pansy SchH dogs bite toys (sleeves). But it's not about what the dog is biting, suit or sleeve, it's about WHY he is biting, and that comes down to genetics and training, not equipment.

Well, I would say that the majority of ring dogs I've seen have viewed the suit as nothing but a big giant tug toy. Not only is such the genetics of most of the dogs selected for this sport, but so is the training. Just look at all the gadgets used to train young pups to bite the suit (slipable bite suit leg sleeves etc..) not to mention just look at the dogs and the training.

Also look at the behavior of the decoys. In SchH, proper helperwork does involve a good deal of pressure put on the dog. In ring, one of the jobs of the decoy is to try to make the dog miss. Which effectively has the decoy jumping around and dodging like a gigantic bunny rabbit. What does all that dodging causing the dog to miss do? It doesn't raise aggression in the dog, that's for sure. It raises prey through frustration. No different than people playing tug with their dogs, moving the tug out of the way at the last minute causing the dog to miss in order to raise drive intensity. Just here it's a 200lb "tug".

Another common "proof" that ring people will spout about how ring is more serious than SchH is that in ring it is the job of the decoy to steal points from the dog and try to make the dog screw up, whereas SchH helpers are there to "help" the dog because they're called helpers. Well, first that's a fundamental misunderstanding of where the term "helper" comes from. Second, again their means of trying to screw up the dog with the constant causing the dog to miss as I already said doesn't make it more serious, but quite the opposite and makes it even more about prey.

That's not to say that all ring dogs are prey monsters playing tug. They're not. No more than SchH dogs are all prey monsters, or all serious dogs. But whether the dog bites sleeve or suit has no bearing on that. It's the genetics of the dog and how he's trained that determine how the dog views protection, not what sport his handler trains him for.


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## Chris Wild

Just another thought... 

What Cliff said early on in this thread about dogs who are so insane in prey that they become so single focused that they'd go through a brick wall after their drive goal actually plays into how one has to view the "pressure" put on dogs in trial, regardless of which sport it is. Jumping through hoops of fire or walls of plastic bottles on strings or decoys crazily waving hands and clatter sticks in the dog's face may look impressive, and the dog who goes through that may look courageous, but is he really? I'd venture to say that 99% of the dogs doing these things are so single focused in their drive that they are oblivious to those things and don't view them as pressure at all, and wouldn't even if they weren't desensitized to it starting very young. IMO, a strong helper charging in frontally, placing the dog in a pocket, bending over it and driving it and actually hitting it with the stick is inherently more pressuring to the dog and requires more courage on the dog's part, than dancing around and dodging behind a wall of bottles waving hands and clatter stick around but not being able to ever hit the dog.

Of course, that assumes that the helper is actually doing his work correctly in his attacks and drives and stick hits, which isn't often the case. And even then, there are dogs so high in drive that they are oblivious to even that pressure. IMO, that isn't courage. The dog with courage is the one who recognizes the pressure, works through it and fights back against it, not the one has such tunnel vision for his drive goal that he's oblivious to everything else.


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## lesslis

"The dog with courage is the one who recognizes the pressure, works through it and fights back against it, not the one has such tunnel vision for his drive goal that he's oblivious to everything else"


Perfect description Chris!


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## cliffson1

...Thank You


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## Vandal

> when you say you don't work puppies is that because you find waiting to start the protection work brings about better results? If so, what age do you start working a dog? Recognizing that for each animal that might differ, however what would be the average age and maturity characteristics you are looking for?


It depends on the dog and how quickly he matures. However, "most" dogs are not ready for bite work that involves aggression until they are over a year of age , some later than that. That is where the helper, or you, ( if you are experienced enough to see it), have to make a determination of how much and what kind of work to do with the dog. Dogs do not develop social aggression , ( where the protective instincts come from), until later in their development. After a year, usually around a year and a half and some lines even later than that. There are other signs that the dog is ready besides whether he will grip the sleeve or a tug but it seems, as soon as many helpers see that, away they go driving the dog or doing things the dog is not ready for. 

For me, I want a dog who is barking intensely before he is allowed to bite. I have an 11 month old male who is maturing rather quickly but he only just last week got one bite on a wedge. He has been watching protection for a few months from a run set up on the training field. The helper has walked over on occassion, confronted him and then when he barked, ran away. This pup is not looking at the helper like a playmate,( and his genetics are the main reason for that). He views him as an adversary, a trespasser who pesters and teases him . Because he views the helper that way, it is very important what the helper does when he bites, is the right work. He is still a puppy, even though his bite and strike is impressive and he shows no sign of being the least bit intimidated. I have seen pups like this be ruined by helpers who simply over-power the dogs during every training session. However, most helpers nowadays simply bore the dogs to death. lol. 

Many helpers have a very hard time reading dogs and this is particularly true when the dog means it. This is because of how the helpers are trained IMO. Mostly, the sleeve is put on the guy, he is taught how to pop it up for a bite and then told to "run Forest run". That is not helper work but an amazing number of helpers have come here to train and told me that no one has ever told them the things I have. I am not telling them big secrets, just things that a helper should know and what more helpers "seemed" to know some years ago. I will say this however, it has ALWAYS been a problem with finding good helpers. Read the first part of Helmut Raiser's book that he wrote over 20 years ago. He complains right at the beginning about the ability of the helper. It is an art and a skill and genetic in the PERSON. You have to have a feel and "empathy" for the dog to be really good at it and you do not become good at it by working only prey work.

The real skill is in bringing up the dog's aggression and power and allowing the dog to beat you up using it. Most, when they try to go there, cannot trigger the aggression in the dog. They move too much and sort of freak out and bale if the reaction from the dog does not come fast enough. Others completely overdo the threat part and over-power the dog. Or they take a dog like my young pup and just because he is biting really well, go after the dog immediately and start driving him over and over and over, because they don't know what else to do. 

I am always amazed at the people who do not seem to notice that their dog is not BITING. Many are just barely hanging on. Sure, they may be hanging on with a full grip but that isn't all there is to this. The full bite comes from prey work, the hard bite and fighting behaviors comes thru aggression. The speed to chase comes from prey but the strike and power are fueled by aggression. Last, the barking comes mostly from aggression. Look how many dogs do a silent guard now. Oh sure, they will tell you it is because they don't want their dog to bump accidentally, resulting in lost points. Sorry, I am smarter than that. Mostly it is because the dog will not bark with power after the out. To counteract this problem, they teach a silent guard or they select dogs who are thinner in nerve. They will bark because they are easier to disturb. Not the best situation for the breed IMO.

This goes back to what a said a few posts ago where I talked about disturbing the dog and then really seeing the difference in what the dogs are now vs what they used to be like. I do not think that breeding has lead to dogs "locked" in prey. There are dogs who will go there much easier it is true and the training certainly re-enforces it. However, I have not met a dog I could not disturb and bring the aggression to the surface no matter how locked in prey they were at the time. THAT is when I see who the dog really is. Some are just downright nasty, others look more rattled and the bark sounds stressed and they need more help and to see more submission from me. Then there are the good ones and there are less of these now. They answer that threat with a very strong, confident and COMPOSED bark and they clearly enjoy the challenge. When the session is over, the handler has a hard time getting the dog to leave the field, that is how much they love that fight. That is what SchH used to put on display.

This is why I say that SchH is not what it used to be. Used to be the dogs went on the field looking for a bad guy, not their "friend" or 'sparring partner". You could see the courage of the dog in all of the exercises, most especially the blind and the hold and bark. Now we have dogs basically playing but we still have people claiming that SchH is showing them who their dog is. Maybe it is just where I live but I sure don't see that happening. Who a German Shepherd IS, is mostly seen in the protection work. You can see the dog's courage and heart when it is done correctly. When it is not, you can only see how playful he is. Disclaimer: I don't care how you train your dog. You can do it any old way you want, just don't lecture people about SchH titles because mostly, it is not much better than agility now. I am sure that will make people mad but that is simply the reality.


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## carmspack

standing ovation from me for Anne/Vandal .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## martemchik

I'm very new to the breed, and to even dog ownership, and never planned on doing SchH work. I was one of those people that was worried about doing bite work and not wanting it to come out when not on the field. I didn't get a puppy from proven SchH dogs or anything like that, but I did notice his father, a west german working line did have pretty high prey drive for tennis balls (this showed up in my pup). After I saw the kinds of drives he had, I got interested in SchH, but when I did research it worried me that according to more experienced people he wouldn't have "it". And that people purchase pups from certain litters with certain pedigrees just for that reason. It seemed to me like SchH clubs were taking the easy way out and only selecting/breeding dogs that would be easily trained in the sport, instead of accepting everyone and training the dog no matter how long it takes.

There are probably dogs that would fail at SchH, but there are plenty that don't get the chance because they don't have the right name in their pedigree. And then there are huge discussions on this forum of how SchH is the greatest test of a dog's breedworthyness. These responses, coming from people that have trained for decades, really back up my thinking on what a SchH dog has become now, and I'm a complete outsider. I'm not saying the sport is terrible, I think its pretty cool and would love to give it a try, but I think its dumb that dogs get turned down and are deemed unworthy at 6 months of age (I haven't had mine tested yet, but have read plenty of upset posts from members once their dog fails the test).

Its these "trainers" that have caused such a shift to the prey driven GSD you speak of in my mind.


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## Chris Wild

A good trainer, SchH or otherwise, works the dog not the paperwork. The dog has it or he doesn't. At the same time, I don't agree with the idea that SchH or anything else should "accept everyone and train every dog no matter how long it takes". I think in many ways this sort of thinking has in fact contributed to the watering down of SchH. Rather than make the dogs rise to the work and accept the simple fact that many will not and cannot and that is the nature of SchH in the first place, many take the work down to the dog's level. That is not the way it should be. SchH is not, nor ever was intended to be, something that every dog, or even every GSD (or every person for that matter) could do. And while on many levels I don't have a problem with people doing it for fun, even with a less than ideal dog, because there is nothing wrong with training a dog and having fun together, at the same time in some ways I do take issue with this because of the drain this can be on what is usually already limited resources in clubs, because it is unfair to try to make a dog something he is not, but primarily because this "everyman's SchH" sure doesn't help maintain it as any form of legitimate test of anything.


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## Chris Wild

martemchik said:


> It seemed to me like SchH clubs were taking the easy way out and only selecting/breeding dogs that would be easily trained in the sport


To be frank, that's really the point of a breed test. That individuals who have what it takes SHOULD be easy to train. A good dog is easy. Certainly one has to put the time and effort in, but that really involves developing what the dog brings to the table naturally. Not trying to put something into the dog that isn't there or putting in a ridiculous amount of effort to molly coddle the dog through certain aspects of the training. It shouldn't be difficult and certainly special ed training should not be needed. If it doesn't come easily to the dog that means that the dog doesn't have it genetically. And anything that is designed to be a breed test should be difficult for a dog without the genetics. 

Sorry, I don't view it as clubs being lazy or taking the easy way out, but rather them minding the use of their resources wisely, and remembering what this is all about in the first place.


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## Emoore

I tend to agree with Chris on this. Schutzhund is supposed to be a test of GSD breeding stock and I think it should stay that way. If your rescue or pet lines or Jack Russell has "it", then great-- have fun with it. But don't expect the TD and helpers to spend a lot of time helping along a dog that isn't GSD breeding stock. There are a bazillion other fun dog sports out there. If a dog _is_ a breedworthy GSD, it shouldn't be like pulling teeth to get them to do well in Sch.


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## martemchik

I see where you're getting at with the breed test, but a lot of the clubs around me are quite expensive and so the limited resources argument doesn't really hold up. But I truly believe that for the sport to truly have meaning with the public as a great breedworthy test it has to be more wide spread and available for anyone to at least try. I think as long as I am willing to put in the money and time, no one should be allowed to tell me that my dog isn't good enough (I should be allowed to come to that conclusion myself lol).


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## Chris Wild

martemchik said:


> but a lot of the clubs around me are quite expensive and so the limited resources argument doesn't really hold up.


No matter how much a club charges, resources ARE limited. Time in the day. Acreage for tracking. Time and energy of the people teaching and coaching through the different phases. And the biggest, most important, and usually most limited resource of all: the availabilty, skill, and just plain energy of the helpers. One special ed dog in a club can require more effort and energy expended by the helper than working 10 dogs who have what it takes, to only accomplish a fraction as much due to the limitations of the dog.



martemchik said:


> I think as long as I am willing to put in the money and time, no one should be allowed to tell me that my dog isn't good enough (I should be allowed to come to that conclusion myself lol).


If someone is saying a dog isn't good enough based on papers, not the dog, I would agree. But if someone is evaluating the dog itself, sorry but I disagree.

The other problem is that often no matter how obvious it is to everyone else, many people are so blinded by their love of their dog that they do NOT come to that conclusion themselves. Even worse, after putting in 10 times more effort than anyone should ever have to in order to make up for the lack in the dog, and barely squeaking by a trial on a home field and helper who's doing way too much helping, the dog gets titled and now all of a sudden has the letters after his name so he's "breed worthy".


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## carmspack

If the dog does not have the mettle to do the work they should be recognized for their short comings, loved all the same , but not bred because they are not breed specific correct. A lot of dogs in schutzhund are not correct. Barely recognizable as a GSD (by behaviour) . Prey monkey and hyper active were never part of the description. Soft and over friendly were not part of the description - more on that latter.
To take a dog with inadequate drive or character and force it through the training OR to change the training and trailing to include all is , torture and trauma for the first, and breed damaging for the second example.

I have been to trials with my keen observant eye and I have seen double handling in schutzhund . This was a major event. All the "groomers" (show line) dogs were getting their cosmetics done. Shampooed and blow dried, much fussing with brushing. Into the ring for courage test -- and lo and behold here we have a handler , the decoy , and behind the decoy someone (to me) obviously flipping a favourite toy into the air. I knew they were connected to each other because the dog kept looking behind the decoy at the second handler. It was as if the dog were being reminded please endure this for a few minutes , get your grip and when you come out you can play. Oh yes. Event finished dog runs out like the grass was on fire and reunites with handler number two and plays with the toy. 
I mentioned this to someone else -- boy was I a leper after that . 
Only at the end when you had a working dog who stuck out like a sore thumb because of his attitude and bearing and energy was there a dog of interest for me. This was one of the von Falken dogs , not sure which one - this was some years ago.

You know on this forum we have a lot of kind people who have rescued dogs and they come with issues , fear, fear aggression, unstable temperament , and often the back story is he was abused by "men". Where is this legion of bad men so that we can deal with them. 

I don't believe they exist . Some of my best friends are men . 

A pup or a dog should have some resilience to endure the occassional blunt, matter of fact or stern treatmen. They should not have to be protected from life at large , sheltered, babbied, molly coddled . 

We used to have meaningful courage tests with real stick threats. Now we have padded sticks being waved somewhere over the dog , good for air conditioning , but not a courage test . 

Sport is not , by itself , a good breed worthiness test.

Instinctive tracking drive, not tested, hunt drive not tested, problem solving , intelligence not tested.

I'm sure there will be more to be said on this.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## martemchik

Yeah, your last statement is what would truly worry me about "opening up" the sport. I guess since I don't actually have first hand experience in this I shouldn't yet form opinions on it, but this is what I think as an outsider. I've been waiting all winter to get out and see some dogs at work, so I think then my opinion will change. I only included this in this thread because I felt like maybe the trainers/helpers are looking for these crazy prey driven dogs on purpose because of the limited resources like you said. If you can work 10 prey driven dogs in a given period, or work just one "well balanced" GSD (like one the OP talks about) which one would you chose? And so the cycle goes from there.


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## Emoore

carmspack said:


> You know on this forum we have a lot of kind people who have rescued dogs and they come with issues , fear, fear aggression, unstable temperament , and often the back story is he was abused by "men". Where is this legion of bad men so that we can deal with them.


Not to get too off track on this, but I strongly agree. I've been in rescue for more than 8 years and "he was abused" seems to be the excuse for every kind of behavior. Then you meet the dog and he wasn't abused, he's just weak-nerved and skittish. I've had one horse that was abused (scars all over her body, terrified of being tied) and one foster dog that was abused (terrified of tall men's feet) but other than that, I see a lot of weak-nerved dogs.


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## GSDElsa

Emoore said:


> Not to get too off track on this, but I strongly agree. I've been in rescue for more than 8 years and "he was abused" seems to be the excuse for every kind of behavior. Then you meet the dog and he wasn't abused, he's just weak-nerved and skittish. I've had one horse that was abused (scars all over her body, terrified of being tied) and one foster dog that was abused (terrified of tall men's feet) but other than that, I see a lot of weak-nerved dogs.


I also agree. I think a dog has an "adjustment period" if they are coming straight out of a shelter or have been in 4 homes in 2 weeks. But after a week or 2 if the dog isn't normal...then it will always be a management issue.

I've done a lot of dog evals where the dog acts scared, has fear aggression issues, etc...it's like the people WANT to be able to say the dog was abused. "well, even though we got him at 8 weeks...you never know what happened before that."


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## Chris Wild

carmspack said:


> If the dog does not have the mettle to do the work they should be recognized for their short comings, loved all the same , but not bred because they are not breed specific correct. A lot of dogs in schutzhund are not correct. Barely recognizable as a GSD (by behaviour) . Prey monkey and hyper active were never part of the description. Soft and over friendly were not part of the description - more on that latter.
> To take a dog with inadequate drive or character and force it through the training OR to change the training and trailing to include all is , torture and trauma for the first, and breed damaging for the second example.


Here here! :toasting:



martemchik said:


> I only included this in this thread because I felt like maybe the trainers/helpers are looking for these crazy prey driven dogs on purpose because of the limited resources like you said. If you can work 10 prey driven dogs in a given period, or work just one "well balanced" GSD (like one the OP talks about) which one would you chose? And so the cycle goes from there.


You seem to be condensing the discussion into 2 types, crazy prey drive and not. And it seems you are assuming that the not crazy prey driven is by virtue of not being crazy prey drive the correct dog. No, that is not the case. It takes more to make a correct balanced GSD than being not overly crazy in prey. 

The correct, balanced GSD many here are referring to does NOT fit into the category of taking the time and effort of 10 dogs. A correct dog IS a good dog, one who is easy to work and a joy to work. 

The dogs requiring the 10 times the effort are something else entirely.

I do think some strong opinion forming should wait until there is a basis of experience because really once you see these 3 different dogs... the crazy prey, the correctly balanced, and the just not cut out for it/better suited for some other activity... the differences are pretty clear. Until you see them, all the words in the world won't really provide a clear picture.


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## martemchik

I definately know there are plenty of dogs in the middle, but I read into the OP as saying there are too many crazy prey ones. It relates really well to the other discussions on this forum about "laid back" pet GSDs coming from pet breeders (I know you've been a part of more than a few of those Chris). It just seems like both sides are "ruining" the breed. I guess I just wish I was in an area with more working dogs so that I could compare mine to some. Our club breeds ASL dogs and while they do agility they focus more on the show ring and conformation.


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## Chris Wild

The OP is saying there are too many crazy prey ones, and I agree. But he's referring to dogs who are successful in SchH (albeit for the wrong reasons) and the changing of breeding and training techniques that have gone hand in hand with the sporty shift in SchH (and which came first is a chicken/egg argument in a lot of ways).

But the one I was referring to that takes 10 times the in response to your statement about how any dog ought to be able to try it no matter how much time and effort it takes, and that I think clubs are in many ways smart to turn off SchH and onto something more appropriate for the dog, is something else entirely.


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## Vandal

> I definately know there are plenty of dogs in the middle, but I read into the OP as saying there are too many crazy prey ones. It relates really well to the other discussions on this forum about "laid back" pet GSDs coming from pet breeders (I know you've been a part of more than a few of those Chris). It just seems like both sides are "ruining" the breed. I guess I just wish I was in an area with more working dogs so that I could compare mine to some. Our club breeds ASL dogs and while they do agility they focus more on the show ring and conformation.


It is not a case of dogs being in the "middle", between prey driven and couch potato . It is a case of the dogs having the drives and instincts a German Shepherd was intended to possess. In order to understand what I just said, you have to see lots of dogs and train with someone knowledgeable enough to explain to you what the dog's behavior is saying about his character. Not many of those people left. Lots of people think they know but usually, they are relying on what they heard someone say vs having experienced it by working dogs. There is a BIG difference. Words do not take the place of seeing and feeling it .

A helper has a very unique viewpoint but again, they have to know what they are doing and have the ability to not only pressure the dog but to know when to relieve that pressure as well. It takes YEARS to learn helper work and most of the really good helpers will tell you they learn something new with almost every dog they work. Each dog presents something just a little different than the last one and the ability to read that dog and adjust , like I already said, is a skill, an art and a gift that the helper has to have. 

Berhard Flinks was mentioned and I think he is going to be in your area this year doing a seminar. You may want to go watch and ask questions when you see the dogs doing things you don't understand. 

What I said about what the dogs do when I pressure them in protection..... all those behaviors I mentioned say something about the dog. I think most people do not realize how much of the dog you can see in protection and that what he does there, crosses over into the other phases. No, I am not talking about biting crossing over, ( although we see more dogs today who will bite their handlers), I am talking about how composed the dog remains under stress. How well he can escalate his aggression and then turn it down when appropriate, because he has the nerves that allow him to do that. There are very subtle things you can see and feel the dog do as the helper, especially when you threaten the dog or the handler. You can feel it in the bite and you can see it in their eyes. SchH was designed to show you who the dog is by placing pressure on him. The pressure has been removed by clever training techniques.

All the vocations a GSD used to be able to do is related to the ability to "think" under pressure. The dog's ability to do that becomes so clear when you work him with some meaning as the helper. This is something you have to experience by either working a dog as the helper or working numerous dogs in SchH as the handler...and by paying attention to what your dog does in certain situations. What you see in protection, in how your dog performs, ( and I mean protection that does pressure the dog and presents a real challenge to him), you will see in how he deals with daily life and how well he handles stress in the other phases. Because the training is conducted so much differently than it used to be, this is not so easy anymore. The training employs the prey instinct in protection and prey work is the reward in obedience. Tracking just kind of falls in there somewhere with food being what people use the most. Doesn't really have lots to do with searching for something or even really challenging the dog's ability to continue working in difficult conditions, since the tracks in trials are made as EASY as possible and are usually shorter than required , especially at big events. 

Anyway, here is the point. SchH used to be about putting the traits and characteristics of the German Shepherd breed on display. Now it is more about putting the trainer there. The GSD standard says a GSD must have courage, hardness and fighting drive as the main components of his character. Using the prey instinct in training has made it much more difficult to see if those traits are present in the dog. A dog can have those things and still be a couch potato at home and he can possess those traits and also have very strong prey drive. However, you have to have training and a test that will expose those elements of the dog's character and SchH, in its current state, is not doing that anywhere near as often as it used to. Without courage, hardness and fighting drive, he is not a German Shepherd Dog...period.


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## carmspack

I made a mistake. I reported that the working dogs were represented by one of the von Falken dogs . That was incorrect. The working dogs were represented by one of the C litter (Casch if I am not mistaken) Hilsblick dogs Casch vom Hilsblick - German shepherd dog . 
What a difference. There is the sea of roachy black and reds with beauty shop coats , tails clamped over their annus (ususus - plural) trying to go by without drawing too much attention was this dog who covered the ground , had spirit, looked at the people rimming the ring , fully aware , tail carried parallel to his back . Everything said I am here about him. 

That staid in my mind and when the opportunity presented itself I got a female from Casch HIlsblick CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German shepherd dog Carmina Sitting Bull. Even though she had basically been a "farm" dog , when we got her she adapted without even blinking. Everything in stride. Works like a fiend, and then is a totally relaxed calm dog. Has been doing narc work in the schools replacing her male companion Carmspack Cubby Carmspack Cubby - German shepherd dog who was retired this year. The job entails working in public schools.
Point of interest Cubby is the sire of a male called Carmspack Stark , a dual working police dog with Buffalo PD . He works in schools also , the little kids adore him and are able to bear hug him, the teens in the high schools not so much because he finds them out and gets them suspensions *#*@ dog . Starks page is being updated with some beautiful recent pictures. Carmspack Stark - German shepherd dog
Sister is a TD. I have brother Mathias , a predominately black with red points long coat . Same litter we have dogs in VIP Security in Ottawa and one working the International bridge doing vehicle sweeps with aggressive apprehension when needed. Repeat litter we have Griffin who is Executive protection https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/successes-references/carmspack-griffin-bax

what is the common denominator --- all dogs have a rich genetic background of herding dogs. I mean real ones. I have had this since day one way back in 1975 -- everytime I stray from this formula trying to bring in something else I loose something that I feel is very very important. 
I have been communicating with real shepherds lately , they don't concern themselves with breed registries and they breed freely back and forth within the still existing regional herding dogs as it was prior to 1860's and Phylax.

I am so off put by some of the dogs I see in sport. Dogs that roll their eyes inward on the bite. Dogs that are so intolerant that they savagely bite up their owners and intimidate them. Dogs that whine and squeal (this is not normal GSD as one forum member joked) . That is the inability to cap the drive and that is one of the problem in breeding extremes . Dogs that eat their tail, spin in crates , can't live in normal life and some dogs are just plane not so smart.

back to work -- see ya ' later

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

Earlier in this thread I said I had an opportunity to get an imported dog out of Mac vd Kine, sorry, I meant his brother Mic vd Kine.
Otherwise, there is good discussion going on about the "locked in prey" type dogs. As Carmen said, these dogs, imo, are just as faulty as the shy soft dogs of the breed ring in that both have altered the essence of the breed. But you have to get out to training venues to see good temperament. And you also have to see the dog worked in stress and working out solutions to things under pressure to understand and appreciate the beauty of the breed. That's why something like agility is a fun thing for the dog to do, but anyone that thinks something like that truly tests a dog is very much mistaken.


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## elisabeth_00117

cliffson1 said:


> Earlier in this thread I said I had an opportunity to get an imported dog out of Mac vd Kine, sorry, I meant his brother Mic vd Kine.
> Otherwise, there is good discussion going on about the "locked in prey" type dogs. As Carmen said, these dogs, imo, are just as faulty as the shy soft dogs of the breed ring in that both have altered the essence of the breed. But you have to get out to training venues to see good temperament. And you also have to see the dog worked in stress and working out solutions to things under pressure to understand and appreciate the beauty of the breed. T*hat's why something like agility is a fun thing for the dog to do, but anyone that thinks something like that truly tests a dog is very much mistaken.*


I have to say that from watching all sorts of lines doing a multitude of venues, I agree.


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## Liesje

In defense of agility, like SchH, it really is what YOU make of it. I don't know if this says more about agility or SchH, but there are a good number of agility GSDs that I'd take over SchH3 dogs (and a lot of peers that I respect and admire who do both). I do both, and look for the same traits in both. I want a dog that screams and zips around neurotically for a tug toy in agility about as much as I want a dog that is so obsessed with getting a sleeve in his mouth he can't even bark during protection work....which is to say, not at all!


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## elisabeth_00117

I do both as well and although agility is a mental and physcial work out for the dog (and handler!) I think that schH really puts STRESS on the dog and challenges the dog more to work through that stress/pressure. Just what I have seen with my own dog as I don't know many dogs personally that do both venues.


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## JanaeUlva

*Thanks Mary and Anne and others*

I really appreciate this forum and the experienced, thoughtful advice. My experience with working GSD in Schutzhund is somewhat limited but what I did learn was the breeding does make a difference and i got to work a couple of dogs that were opposites of each other in nerve and drive as well as watching a lot of other peoples dogs. Like Anne mentioned it is also important to have knowledgeable people to explain what is going on. And it is obvious to me that things have changed a lot since I was training back in the 1990's.

I believe I now have a good puppy, and since I don't have a ton of experience the odds of me making mistakes are high. And from what I have gathered, one reason to hold off on protection is so that the dog has the maturity to handle mistakes that will be made and another reason is time will well allow the dog to develop the drives, etc. it will need to work correctly. 

Now that I know this, I guess I should cap my drive  and back off the protection training. It will be tough because it is fun with this puppy. If anybody has more advice on good things to do in preparation for when I can start up again, what I should look for etc. the advice is welcomed.


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## Fast

Liesje said:


> In defense of agility, like SchH, it really is what YOU make of it.


 I think that this simple statement is one of the best in this thread. There is nothing stopping anyone from getting out there and training and trialing with their "real" or "correct" GSD. Maybe if more of these types of dogs were trialed the sport people, could learn to appreciate these dogs, that are rare as an albino panda bear, and would smarten up. 

Most of the top GSD competitors in schutzhund don't breed dogs. So if they are not breeding they are buying from breeders. So how can they be to blame? 

I don't buy this premise that GSDs lack the aggression in protection and it's caused by schutzhund or ignorant trainers and helpers. Sorry there are just too many things that lead me to believe otherwise. There are more police and military dogs than ever. The dog of choice for many is the Malinois; a dog that many of you call a big prey monster. Are GSD more prey driven than Malinois? If they are aggressive enough for police and military; why not schutzhund? 

Also there seems to a fallacy brewing here that a dogs prey level has something to do with his aggression levels. This is not true. A dog can be both very prey driven and have high aggression levels. It's also not true that just because a dog can't settle in the house he has high prey drive. Drives have goals. What goal is the dog reaching by pacing around in the house? And most cases of a dog that won't settle in the house are simply because of nervous energy. 

The GSD was created to do a job. And the job has changed. Traditionally the work used to be patrol where the dog primarily found people and bit them. Now the job has changed. Police and military dogs do more detection now than patrol. Do you think this might be a reason the dogs have changed? And isn't that ability to change part of the GSD versatility? Is a GSD a GSD because of the job he does now or is it a GSD because of the job he did in the past?


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## Northern GSDs

This is an excellent thread!

Now perhaps I am branching it out (I hope not as I do think this pertains somewhat to the discussion) but is it becoming more and more of the "norm" at clubs during protection sessions for pups to be worked by the helper (eg prey rag work) at a very young age? What are the advantages of this? Disadvantages? Does this contribute to the "locked in prey" phenomenon or is it helping in teaching foundations for later protection work? Thoughts?


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## carmspack

not only should bite work be delayed until the dog is more mature , the introduction to the first bite should be delayed as well. 
By that I mean that there should be much more of a build up , tension, frustration built before the dog gets a bite. Too many owners, decoys, clubs want to get going -- get the bite work. What should happen is that the dog may go for weeks with nothing more than getting "bothered" , pressure put on without the bite. The dog gets more and more frustrated. Finally the day comes and the decoy allows a bite. By that point the dog is so mentally prepared , has dreamt about what he is going to do , that the first bite is out of OFFENSIVE , active aggression, drive, deep and meaningful, not a nippy , frontal , prey , half hearted attempt.
That is what we did for French Ring, that is what I do for the dogs I put in to service. Everything else is done . Satisfaction comes from tracking and hunting and being out in social situations. The dog is comfortable in the world and competent. 
The decoy is not his play friend . 

Here is another interesting point. Just the other day when I had an officer over , in conversation some point was made about knowing which dogs came off the schutzhund training as a foundation. Those dogs had the urge to want to return , to go into a "Suburban" (the vehicle of choice for LE here) if they happened to need to track past one . This is a conditioned response I see when watching clubs do training. The pup/dog is out on the field . There is some teasing , the dog gets the tug / sleeve . The dog and handler spin like tops round and round and then the dog runs back to his van with his booty. Runs off the field. 
In our exercises the dog remains . 
In one club I did healing exercises behind the ring aggitation . Just back enough so that a dog and handler didn't trip over me if they took some steps backward. The dog had to mind me while dogs were being aggressed. He had to be clear and focused and have self control. This did not involve him. 

In French Ring the club I was with did not do the work out of prey . You can intimidate a dog with posture , arms out and hanging over the dog, yelling , conflict , elements of surprise. The dog had to keep pushing through , meet the challenge. The decoys dodging the dog and not "cathching" him as in schutzhund is not prey -- it reveals something about the nature of the dog. Each time the decoy makes the dog miss the dogs ego gets deflated . Some of the power goes. In French ring it is the decoys job to understand and reveal the dogs weakness and exploit it, bring it out , reveal it to the onlookers/ handler and steal the points from the dog. In French ring there is no tracking -- until you get to Campagne and then there is complex tracking where the dog may operate any way , the goal is the end result . In Shutzhund the exercises T O P are broken up into 3 segments. In Ring you enter , do your on lead heeling , then present the leash and collar to the judge and for the remainder of the concentrated 15 to 20 minutes you are in for Brevet , or 45 minutes to one hour you are in for Ring 3 you have no physical attachment, no leash no collar. There are zeros if you have leash tightness , leash correction, leash touching, laying across the dogs back, loop hanging out of your hand -- zero . If you correct your dog , if he is inattentive zero. If the judge feels the decoy is accommodating the dog the decoy may never see another trial. He must be the opposition. I did Brevet, ready for Ring One, competed in Campagne and had Dog in White. I forgot to mention this one. Dog In White is the first dog in competition that is not trialing. He does the course so that people can view the field , view the decoy's nature . The Dog in White contaminates the field , levels the field so that all contestants have the same work place. 
In schutzhund the stick hits are pretty well 2 hits . In French Ring - Brevet could be 15 hits . By the time you get to Ring 3 it could be dozens . 
Sure it is a sport . I think the greatest benefit was that it revealed the dogs weakness rather than accommodating it. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

no cheap bites -- don't give them , let the dog fight for it
Carmen


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## Liesje

Northern GSDs said:


> This is an excellent thread!
> 
> Now perhaps I am branching it out (I hope not as I do think this pertains somewhat to the discussion) but is it becoming more and more of the "norm" at clubs during protection sessions for pups to be worked by the helper (eg prey rag work) at a very young age? What are the advantages of this? Disadvantages? Does this contribute to the "locked in prey" phenomenon or is it helping in teaching foundations for later protection work? Thoughts?


I'm not a helper or any sort of expert so I can only speak for myself but I let my puppy be "worked" on occasion simply because it's fun and it's exercise. I do not think a sound puppy is going to be ruined by barking, chasing, and biting an "oven mit" once every few weeks. I think others have argued that if you do this often and only work a dog this way, prey work is all you encourage. I guess I think....yes and no. Just because prey work is all you encourage does not mean it overwrites real aggression. Like Anne is saying a good helper can disturb a dog and bring out real aggression and fight. My puppy is now 6 months old, teethed, and I let him do this puppy prey work on occasion. It's good exercise, letting him get all worked up and barking for some time, gets him out to the club and learning to let his instincts take over regardless of the environment. I like a lot of barking and active guarding so I guess I don't mind the puppy learning early on that barking is good and barking gives him confidence and control. I am not really concerned with the actual "protection work" behavior like whether he grips perfectly. I look at how the lines work and that is what I feel I can reasonably expect at maturity. I know other people seem to do this because they think the puppy needs to develop some sort of relationship and trust with the helper and that is absolutely not part of my reasoning.

I have the advantage of just being a participant and not a breeder so I don't really concern myself with micromanaging every aspect of the dog's work and training or whether doing this will ruin him forever. IMO a good dog will overcome mistakes in training and work and it's as much about me and us as a team than it is about him and getting everything perfect or having to prove himself as a potential stud dog. If the dog enjoys doing it and seems to have a knack for it, we do it. That said I try to put as much research into obtaining my dogs as possible and I run their program. I decide when they work and how they work, even in protection.


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## holland

I really agree with that last paragraph. Not everyone does schutzhund because they want to breed their dog.


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## Vandal

> I'm not a helper or any sort of expert so I can only speak for myself but I let my puppy be "worked" on occasion simply because it's fun and it's exercise. I do not think a sound puppy is going to be ruined by barking, chasing, and biting an "oven mit" once every few weeks.


 
It can work that way and I have worked younger pups in years past. I think the main thing you have to consider if you work young pups is this. First, do not work them every week. Second, make sure the pup is working the helper and not just the tug or rag. What I mean by that is this. Nowadays, I watch helpers working pups and it is ONLY about the tug or rag. Many times, they use a whip or what some call a flirt pole and this has the effect of taking the helper completely out of the picture. Or, they simply move the tug around without asking the pup to make THEM move. It becomes nothing but the tug and that, IMO, is the biggest mistake. As the helper, you can challenge a pup to the level a puppy can handle. Pups challenge each other over toys etc, so, if you take on that posture and allow the pup to control YOU, not just the tug, you can end up with good protection later. The helper has to keep increasing the challenge though and like I said, make sure it is him/her the dog is controlling, not just the rag/tug.

I am much happier with the result I have gotten, ( and what Carmen also described), because when the bite is offered, the pup is ready to bite. All the drives and instincts raised by watching , chasing the helper away with aggressive barking when challenged etc is channeled into that bite. Therefore, the quality of the bite is really excellent.....(as long as the genetics are there as well). Too much puppy work has a way of dulling the puppy where he is a maybe feeling a bit too comfortable and safe with the helper. Also, since I am always working with new helpers, who mostly lack the skills to work dogs this way, it is easier for them to start the dog this way. It is a more fail safe way to bring up aggression in the dog. Once that aggression is there, it is easier to work on the rest vs doing it the other way around. 

There are not many helpers who can bring a dog out of too much prey work. That is really something that the person has to have inside of them and also know how much to do and not do. Many helpers resort to pain because they lack the presence and ability to read the dog. I can do it but it sure is not easy teaching people how. Usually they can do some of it but not all. That is a problem for the dog. Some, ( very few), can present the threat and make themselves look dangerous to the dog but then not respect what the dog does....big problem. Or, they can't present that because they themselves are just too nice and are there smiling at the dog. It is about being in character and playing the part but many people cannot do that. So, like I said, it is easier to just bring the aggression out first and in order to do that, you have to be able to wait . After that, you have to be careful who you allow your dog to see. Even the dogs who are raised this way can be dulled down by helpers who really should not be helpers. 

Since I breed dogs, it is not exactly about training things perfectly so as not to ruin the dog, it is about seeing what is in my dog. This is why I work the older dogs using compulsion in obedience and work them in a way to see what is really there in protection. That means more pressure to see how the dog works through it and how he handles it.

Having said that, I think it is important to once again make clear that prey work has it's place. It is an important part of protection training. However, it was originally the idea to channel aggression into prey.....not prey work or play into more prey work. That dulls the dog and that is what I see going on quite a bit at SchH clubs.


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## Vandal

One more thing about working puppies. You have to know when to stop working that pup. There will come a time when there is no more you can teach the puppy because of his age. This is where people seem to get into trouble with puppies. They will not be ready for more serious work after the initial work, so, you have to quit. Even if you keep working them with less pressure and do not threaten them, you are causing problems. Training has to progress, not stay the same but they will not be ready for more, so, you have to stop.


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## carmspack

the dog should not be friends with the decoy , and should not trust him.

there is no micro managing -- I need things to be exposed -- when I recommend a dog he is guaranteed to graduate and certify -- so far no fails ! 

the dog has to be emotionally fit for what ever kind of handler skill he will get once he is handed over. 

when I hire the decoy , an excellent skilled person who also does decoy for american street ring , that is the only time they see the "man" and he puts the pressure on , no socializing before or after. The first time they see him it might be 10 minutes of aggravating the dog , bringing them forward wanting to get him. All the dogs get is the satisfaction that they drove him off. They don't go running back to any where . The stay in the spot that they protected . Do this a few times over a few weeks with increasing threat -- until one day they get the bite which is bone crunching.

They never see the decoy who has a good 2 1/2 hours travel time. But they remember him and are ready for him .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Emoore

Hey Carmen, just checking to make sure you got my PM? I know for some reason mine doesn't always notify me when I have one.


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## Doc

The old saying holds true today as it did years ago:

"You breed good dogs, you don't train them".


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## onyx'girl

Doc, your pups come out of the womb trained? I'd like to see that!


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## carmspack

how about , almost -- but they are too young to show you. Good things should be "bred in the bone" . It is there or it is not . All the pups need is opportunity.
I have dogs doing tracks as early as 6 - 7 weeks, one dog "Blast" was doing a good schutzhund track at 14 weeks -- with a very experienced tracking person holding the line . When a dog is enriched with the genetics for something it is there. 
Dogs can be tested for attraction to sheep as early as 8 weeks - sans training. They are born with the skill. Same with nose skills . Same with confidence.

You breed a good dog --- and it is there. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wolfstraum

Vandal said:


> It is not a case of dogs being in the "middle", between prey driven and couch potato . It is a case of the dogs having the drives and instincts a German Shepherd was intended to possess.
> 
> SNIP - saving space!
> 
> Anyway, here is the point. SchH used to be about putting the traits and characteristics of the German Shepherd breed on display. Now it is more about putting the trainer there. The GSD standard says a GSD must have courage, hardness and fighting drive as the main components of his character. Using the prey instinct in training has made it much more difficult to see if those traits are present in the dog. A dog can have those things and still be a couch potato at home and he can possess those traits and also have very strong prey drive. However, you have to have training and a test that will expose those elements of the dog's character and SchH, in its current state, is not doing that anywhere near as often as it used to. Without courage, hardness and fighting drive, he is not a German Shepherd Dog...period.


I really need the :BOW: smiley back!
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Lee


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## Doc

Jane, that quote is from Manfred Heyne - someone who probably forgot more about German shepherds than most people will learn in their lifetime.
You're not a breeder - you train your pets - so I imagine you would have some sort of sarcastic comment about it and question its validity.


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## Vandal

Some months ago, I recommended tying dogs out to watch protection without being directly worked by the helper. The question was raised about dogs who would just lay down or stop barking when there was a break in training. There was a concern about the dog not being "in drive". I think I did not answer that question clearly. Years ago, this is the way we started all the young dogs. They were tied out to watch. When they showed they were ready, the helper would start to shift attention to that dog and begin the work. 
I think nowadays, we are way too concerned about the idea of the dog "being in drive". Protection work is not all about drive level. Sure, it matters but it is not all there is. What we were doing back then was working with the dog's protective instincts. It was not about filling the dog with just prey drive in one session. It happened over weeks and months and aggression was mostly what we were looking for. Now we see training that is about keeping the dog "fresh" in the crate with the AC on, bringing him out, working him and then putting him away as fast as possible before he "goes flat". This is why Carmen sees dogs trying to get to the car. They are trained to go there right after protection is over so they don't go flat on the field. This seems kind of like an obsession where the dog has to get back in that crate. 
The reason that concern has come about is because the dogs are mostly worked too much in prey. The prey attraction dies out where the aggression is more "everlasting". When you use both in training, you do not have to worry so much about preserving drive. Nowadays there is this way of training that is like inflating a balloon and then ending the session before all the air escapes. When you train with all the protection instincts, that is not necessary. We used to tie dogs out, let them bark and carry on, pull them off the fence, work them on the helper and then put them back on the fence. The dogs worked great , not to mention, they were in fantastic condition....another aspect that seems to be ignored nowadays and probably contributes to injuries in training.


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## Vandal

As for being in the dog.....I am a pretty good trainer...if I do say so myself ....however, I have tried to train dogs that I knew, in my heart, didn't have "it". Even the best training could not compensate for what those dogs lacked. It is there or it isn't. People have different ways of describing this but it is bred into the dog.


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## Doc

Anne, I think the way dogs use to be trained is more in line with their natural instinct. I'm thinking out loud now but I would venture to say that if left alone, pups would watch what the older dogs were doing, how they acting, etc. and learn by observation. By having the pups watch, the images are set in their minds long before a trainer tries to direct/orchestrate what to do. I think "training" is bringing out/cultivating what is already genetically within a dog. Like you said, if a dog has "it", he/she has it, if it doesn't even outstanding experienced trainers have a difficult time making it happen. JMO


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## martemchik

I get what everyone is saying about having and not having "it" but when I relate it to the original post I believe what he was getting at is that an over the standard prey drive can cover up the dog not having "it" and might actually help a subpar dog excel at Schutzhund (the way it is now) and therefore become a top of the line stud dog. Trainers and breeders like you (the ones that are part of the discussion) know what they are looking for and want a well balanced dog that meets the standard, but there are so many others out there that would take a high drive dog over that because that high drive will help it excel at SchH and according to current opinion, excelling at SchH means great breeding stock. So what I gather from all this is that SchH, the way it is currently run, is flawed.


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## Jason L

Vandal said:


> Now we see training that is about keeping the dog "fresh" in the crate with the AC on, bringing him out, working him and then putting him away as fast as possible before he "goes flat". This is why Carmen sees dogs trying to get to the car. They are trained to go there right after protection is over so they don't go flat on the field. This seems kind of like an obsession where the dog has to get back in that crate.
> The reason that concern has come about is because the dogs are mostly worked too much in prey.


It's always fun to start some crap with the dogs as you slip the sleeve and as the handlers are taking them back to the car . Some dogs will just keep on going no matter what you do and others will turn out and run immediately back to the helper, going: "You want MORE!?"


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## GSDElsa

Vandal said:


> Some months ago, I recommended tying dogs out to watch protection without being directly worked by the helper. The question was raised about dogs who would just lay down or stop barking when there was a break in training. There was a concern about the dog not being "in drive".


It seems to me laying down or stopping from barking is an ideal trait if there is no action going on? The instant off-switch? If it's break time...I would want my dog to take one giant chill pill.


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## GSDElsa

martemchik said:


> I get what everyone is saying about having and not having "it" but when I relate it to the original post I believe what he was getting at is that an over the standard prey drive can cover up the dog not having "it" and might actually help a subpar dog excel at Schutzhund (the way it is now) and therefore become a top of the line stud dog. Trainers and breeders like you (the ones that are part of the discussion) know what they are looking for and want a well balanced dog that meets the standard, but there are so many others out there that would take a high drive dog over that because that high drive will help it excel at SchH and according to current opinion, excelling at SchH means great breeding stock. So what I gather from all this is that SchH, the way it is currently run, is flawed.


 
I can't quite tell from your post, but don't confuse simple "prey drive" as drive in general. Lots of different types of drives.


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## Vandal

For a while there, it was more about the judging being flawed and in certain situations, that is still certainly the case. The points matter so much now. For a while, the judges were only talking about points and not the qualities they saw or did not see in the dogs. That created what you are talking about where it "looked" good and when the judge didn't comment, it reinforced the idea that what the people were watching was correct. 

At the beginning of the last decade, we saw lots of correct dogs but most lacked power. They still got some very high scores which was a huge disservice to the breed. When I started in SchH, the judges talked much more about the DOGS and the points were not as important as the comments. Sure, it was nice to score well, I am not saying that but when you did get a 98 in protection, it was a 98...meaning, all the protective instincts, (courage , hardness and fight drive), ...were evident in the routine. Now, that doesn't have to be there, correctness and points have taken over and while I "think" people are starting to understand there is more to it than that, we have a rather long road back. I seriously doubt it will ever go back to what it was. In some ways, that is ok but in other ways, no, not at all. The claim is the AR people are out to get SchH. IMO, that is simply a VERY convenient excuse.

Some don't want to go back but I can say, for me anyway, it was a heck of a lot more fun when the dogs meant it. It just added a level of excitement and challenge to the training that I personally enjoyed quite a bit. I still enjoy showing people that their dogs can do that and when they see it, they are excited about it as well. However, they do not have the helper for the most part who can or even wants to work the dog that way. So, they are kind of stuck in the ho humness that is now , ( no not always), what SchH has become. 

Like I said, I knew what dogs had it and which ones didn't. For me, it is very hard to try to show a dog like that because, frankly, it is difficult and what is not there will show. Where it shows depends on what goes on in the trial. The judge might not point it out, but it is there. Also, these dogs are very difficult to get to do all three phases in one day. We always used to say " you have to do all three". Some dogs , like one of the dogs I am talking about, looked great in obedience but the other two phases required "special skills" and it just kind of wore me out.


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## carmspack

just to make it clear it is NOT my dogs going back to the cars. 

This was a point made to me by a police k9 handler commenting about why they don't like to get schutzhund trained dogs -- when out on a long and nasty track they want to quit and jump into a van/ Suburban. The good dogs would keep on tracking right past it.

I think more behaviour would be exposed if the dogs were made to stay on the field for the entire time , including desire to work in different weather conditions.

The real herding dog had to be out there in blazing sun, high wind, pouring rain -- how many dogs go sour and act disgusted if they get wet with rain , bitter cold. 

If people had to deal with idiot behaviour , hyper activeness, potential dog aggression, lack of focus and calm , I think there would be a shift back to a more balanced character.

Do your 5 minutes, run to the car, give water and handler go chat and yack , then get dog again , rinse and repeat. 

Even in the SchH trials you are in for 10 minutes at a time , one event at a time with big breaks , some of them the following day . French Ring you enter the ring and you may be in there for an hour of testing , at least at level 3.

When we took dogs out for evaluation (Stark PD Buffalo) at 7 1/2 months of age the first thing the dog had to do was a track that was just about a 1/4 mile . And the testing kept going and going . We were there from 9 until 3 -- testing 2 dogs . No breaks . No back to the car . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Liesje

Well I put my dogs in my car after they work but we don't really have the luxury of keeping them anywhere else because of where we train, not really the dog itself. Our building is barely big enough for an escape bite, let alone the club members and other dogs. I have seen dogs that dart to the door towards their car anytime the sleeve is slipped even if it's their first bite and I often wonder about these dogs.


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## Jason L

Yea, it's just an interesting little thing to watch for. The dogs do not even need to spit the sleeve out. I'm sure Nikon does that since I have seen video where he goes right back at the helper. But I have also seen dogs where they will come back to the helper with the sleeve in their mouths or just stand their ground in general. For most part you can just tell: some dogs want to stay on the field, some don't.


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## holland

If your dogs don't go back to the car-how do they get home-unless of course you live there which would solve the problem


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## Liesje

holland, we're referring to having dogs tethered or kenneled where they can see bitework and bark. It's a nice tool, but some don't have the space or a safe way of doing it.

I don't like it when the dog thinks that they have the sleeve, they are done. Of course I'm bias but I do like my dog's approach. If there is some space between him and the helper (and if I want him to unload a little more, I make more space), he will stand there with it or drop it and stand over it. If there is still threat from the helper, either by his actions or close proximity, the dog spits and resumes barking (or doing what I say if that is heel or platz or whatever). And the barking is at the helper, not barking at the sleeve and looking to the helper to pick it up. If the helper was still showing a threatening presence to my dog, I'd have to drag him off the field if his turn was up (and sometimes we do it that way). Some dogs, it's like they get the sleeve and want to run off and claw at it with their paws and teeth, or just make a bee-line for their vehicle with it.


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## onyx'girl

Doc said:


> Jane, that quote is from Manfred Heyne - someone who probably forgot more about German shepherds than most people will learn in their lifetime.
> You're not a breeder - you train your pets - so I imagine you would have some sort of sarcastic comment about it and question its validity.


Lighten up doc...wow!


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## Jason L

Liesje said:


> I don't like it when the dog thinks that they have the sleeve, they are done.


This goes back to an older thread (but then what doesn't). I think it's alright for the dog to hold the sleeve after it's slipped but the sleeve shouldn't be a pacifier to the dog. The sleeve should be held with some anger behind it. If the helper were to walk up to the dog and tap the sleeve or even just if the helper just go and "pet" the dog, the dog should react with fight at the encroaching presence of the helper. Again, he does not need to spit the sleeve out and bare teeth at the helper - that depends on the dogs. But he shouldn't just sit there like he's holding a tug toy or a ball either.


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## CassandGunnar

Sorry, nothing substantial to add, just wanted to say that this has become one of my favorite threads. It's fascinating to me to hear so many "dog people" discussing standards/breed/drive/training/overall "craft"/etc.
I would love to get everyone together, roaring fire, adult (or otherwise) beverage of choice, and about a 3 day snowstorm.
I'm learning by watching what is said by some of the people that I have come to gain a great deal of respect for (in my short time here).
I have seen video of Sch and have somewhat of an understanding of what takes place. My experience is with police K9's (former handler) and although some parts of Sch sound similar, but not really the same type of thing.

Please, everyone, continue to educate me and let me pick some brains. In the meantime, once spring comes to MN (not appearing likely, as I sit here and watch the early news, they're talking another 12-20 inches of snow early next week) I am going to contact some Sch clubs in the Twin Cities area and go and observe training and competition, just for my own edification.
I may just get the "bug" and get back into it.

Thanks again.


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## cliffson1

Trained with the police for 5 hours today. We worked on going up three stories of metal grate stairs, in a burned out fire dept. training building, then you come down three stories of wooden stairs on the outside of the building. Did this about 5 times with my 13 month old male. By third time he was having no problems, by 5th time he was showing no stress. This training took place at the firing range as the Coast Guard MP were qualifying their pistols. Then went on empty school bus, up and down the aisles, and then went over to baseball fields and did bleachers. We called it an environmental day. We ended up laying tracks into the woods for bites for the patrol dogs and I backtied my boy and had the instructor work him for some nice bites. Great day for training.(Sorry, I'll get back on topic, but I think these type of things are necessary to really test nerve and recovery.)


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## elisabeth_00117

Sounds like a great day today Cliff.


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## cliffson1

Back on topic...When I started this topic I wanted to focus on the breeding of German Shepherds that appear to be more mal like in drives and behavoir than GS. I think it is very true that there are some aspects of work today that it is perceived for this to be beneficial. Take scent work for example in narcotics and explosives. All dogs have superior olfactory senses to us. The really great narcotic/explosive dogs are the ones that have a strong steady intensity that remains focused throughout the search. But a very important ingredient is for the dog to be able to work out distractions and evaisive methods of detection that are often used. This requires a more methodical thorough searching type of dog. For explosives we do not want a dog that as they zero in, the drive goes off the chart and they risk detonating an object by seizing it like their toy. The drive of the dog keeps the engine running, but the nerve, focus, and intensity maintains the quality. They must be balanced and really the drive has to be subservient to the nerve,focus, clearheadedness, to get the quality.


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## JanaeUlva

cliffson1 said:


> Trained with the police for 5 hours today. We worked on going up three stories of metal grate stairs, in a burned out fire dept. training building, then you come down three stories of wooden stairs on the outside of the building. Did this about 5 times with my 13 month old male. By third time he was having no problems, by 5th time he was showing no stress. This training took place at the firing range as the Coast Guard MP were qualifying their pistols. Then went on empty school bus, up and down the aisles, and then went over to baseball fields and did bleachers. We called it an environmental day. We ended up laying tracks into the woods for bites for the patrol dogs and I backtied my boy and had the instructor work him for some nice bites. Great day for training.(Sorry, I'll get back on topic, but I think these type of things are necessary to really test nerve and recovery.)


Wow that sounds like fun! Super cool examples of training.

Somebody else mentioned in this thread, I believe it was this one, that socialization is good but to a big extent the dog either has the nerve genetically or they don't. The exercises you mention really are such good examples re:the nerve of a dog.

Thinking back to my first GSD compared to the pup I have now, it is obvious to me that this puppy genetically has good nerve and calm thinking. As soon as she had all her vaccinations I took her out a couple times a week to the State Capitol and the University, where there is tons of activity and environmental challenges. Minka enjoyed walking along walls, didn't hesitate to follow me on to grates covering deep heating pits where warm air came out. She readily jumped into planters that contained a grated pit. We climbed open metal fire escapes that went stories up the side of campus buildings. As you mentioned, each climb of the fire escape she became more confident, meaning she no longer needed to hug the wall. We walked on piers that rocked like a boat. We hiked in the gun club outdoor range that has acres of woods and various shooting pits. She never even seemed aware of the gun fire and when I was sure she wasn't bothered by gun shots, we sat and watched my husband shoot his handgun at steel targets and his AR. She sat calmly watching. We played fetch and tug. No big deal. We continue these "environmental" excursions weekly, with a goal of a finding a new distraction/obstacle at every outing. However, these excursions have been easy because she has shown herself to be genetically strong nerved and calm. 

Good thread - maybe a bit of a wide topic thread but it has helped me out in understanding that I don't want to mess up the genetic potential that I think I have in this puppy. I guess, in my novice state, having a strong nerved puppy is probably even a better thing since theoretically she should be more resilient and now it's to be seen how balanced her drives are.


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## björn

As long as the nerves are there and the handlers are able to handle the dog, is there really such a thing as too much prey? I guess some dogs are better suited than others for certain jobs but for the general policework it seems high prey is desired, otherwise the malinois would be at a disadvantage for such jobs I suppose.


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## cliffson1

The Mali is designed to handle that kinda of prey...if they started breeding that much prey into the Belgian sheepdog you would understand what I am saying. It would come with a price in other areas as the dog was not designed that way.


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## Nelly

Bjorn wrote:


> As long as the nerves are there and the handlers are able to handle the dog, is there really such a thing as too much prey? I guess some dogs are better suited than others for certain jobs but for the general policework it seems high prey is desired, otherwise the malinois would be at a disadvantage for such jobs I suppose.


cliffson1 wrote:



> The Mali is designed to handle that kinda of prey...if they started breeding that much prey into the Belgian sheepdog you would understand what I am saying. It would come with a price in other areas as the dog was not designed that way.


Cliff, can you please elaborate on the above.

I remember talking to a K9 trainer/working gsd guy who said he wants to get as much prey drive as he can- to him there is no such thing as too much. Heard the same from some top trainers, who use certain methods.

Can I ask, are the current working malinois still suited to doing the job their descendants were originally bred for, herding ? If the answer is no, then I would challenge the notion that they were originally designed to handle excessive prey drive (really goes for any kind of herding dog).

Breeders talk they are maintaining a breed's working ability as they originally were because they have dogs doing sport & work. Is that really accurate if the dogs cannot do the job they were originally bred for, but they can still do some other jobs ? They're still working dogs but a different type of work requiring a different temperament. That's fine if that's what work demands but it would be a bit far stretched for people to claim they are maintaining the original temperament ? Am I naive in believing there should be really good ones who can still do what they were originally bred for and fit in today's world ?


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## Catu

Nelly said:


> Can I ask, are the current working malinois still suited to doing the job their descendants were originally bred for, herding ? If the answer is no, then I would challenge the notion that they were originally designed to handle excessive prey drive (really goes for any kind of herding dog).


Lately I've been exposed to different lines of Malis and, just as GSD they have different line of different kinds of nerves, drive and size depending on the purposes. A SAR Mali can be so different than a French Ring mali or KNPV malis that I don't think you can make broad assumptions.


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## Nelly

thanks catu, do you know of any lines that are still used for herding ?

anymore comments anyone ?


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## Catu

My knowledge of the Malinois Belgian Shepherd goes only to admit I know less about the breed than I thought before


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## Mike69

So with all that has been said, for someone new to the breed looking for a solid stable GSD, how does one avoid breeders who breed over the top out of control prey monsters, and find the ones that breed balanced dogs, particularly when titles alone apparently do not tell the whole story????


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## PaddyD

IMHO, a GSD that has high ball drive and keeps retrieving until it drops is undesirable. That is not a thinking dog, that is a driven dog. My dog will retrieve any object reliably for 5 - 10 throws, then she brings it to me drops it at my feet and looks at me like, "OK, you idiot, just how stupid do you think I am?!" Just before that last retrieve she will stand and look at me for a few seconds to see if I am serious about this and slowly walk out and get it. "YES, I know how to retrieve but there are other things in life". Oftentimes she will stand next to whatever I threw and look at me as if to say, "Come and get it yourself". But she is a responsible dog and brings it back.


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## Chris Wild

I do not for one second believe that a dog playing fetch is any measure of determining if that is a "thinking dog" or not. Yes, a driven dog is going to play fetch harder and for longer than one with less drive. But that has nothing to do with whether or not it is a "thinking dog". Just because one tires of fetch quickly doesn't make it a thinker, and just because one will keep playing fetch long and hard doesn't mean it isn't. 

Drive and brains are not mutually exclusive. A dog can have one or the other, both or neither. A correct GSD has both, where drive doesn't overload abilty to think. But that doesn't automatically require a lower level of drive. And to think that a dog who tires of fetch is showing more brains, or that one who enjoys fetch and will keep playing is showing less, is absolutely ridiculous.


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## Liesje

I agree with Chris. My dogs LOVE to fetch. I doubt they would honestly fetch until their hearts exploded but they are young dogs in good shape and can easily fetch well beyond 5-10 tosses. Just b/c a dog wants to quit does not mean that dog is smarter, it just means that dog may be tired already, may not enjoy fetch *that* much, etc... Fetch is just a GAME I use for fun and exercise.


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## JakodaCD OA

I also agree with the above 2 posts.. To me, fetching isn't saying my dog is 'thinking', it's saying she is doing something that is rewarding/enjoyable for her. And Masi, to, would 'retrieve' a frisbee until she dropped dead if I kept it up. She isn't "pushy" about it tho. If she stops, it's because her tongue is hitting the ground, it's not because she's 'smart' to do so. 

To me, a thinking dog, is a problem solving dog. Is it easier for 'me' (dog) to go around a 10 foot brick wall or try and scale it? How am I going to get that ball that is blocked by 3 chairs with an opening in the back? Am I going to push those chairs out of the way or am I going to go around to the opening in the back? 

Or Masi's fav, how am I going to get my mom out of bed in the morning? Am I going to JUMP on top of her or am I going to grab those covers and just pull them off? Usually it's the pulling off the covers ) Just some 'easy' examples of 'thinking' to me.

And just to add, I had a gsd who LOVED to fetch, but he was as dumb as rock.


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## Catu

In my experience with SAR, a dog that quits fetching after 5-10 tosses is a dog that will quit after 5 minutes searching and look at you thinking "Hey, lets find something else to do". The ability to stay engaged in the game with intensity after several throws and after increasing difficulty is the first thing I look on a SAR prospect.

But probably your dog IS smarter than ours, while in the team we make ours to work hard for their kibble, yours can get the same after 5 tosses. In evolutionary terms, your dog gets the same result with less energy loss.


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## Mike69

Question for those with more experience than me - is this a dog working with balanced drives or a dog locked in prey or can't you tell from the video. In other words, is this an example of a modern "sport" dog vs. a more old school dog being truly tested in a trial, or is he showing the right stuff? I'm just trying to tell the difference. It's *'V' Javir vom Talka Marda SchH3 IP3 KKL1*


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## Vandal

That is a dog taking a bath along with his handler. 

I guess I can see why the question is being asked. The jumping, where he almost goes down into what looks like a play bow can kind of give a first impression of that. However, he is looking and barking at the helper's face. Also, the way the dog hits the sleeve says , to me, that there is more than just prey attraction in the dog's head. The only "mistake" is how the dog totally focuses on the handler each time she approached. It is nice to have that control but he disengaged from the helper. Training issue I think and also maybe, ( since I don't know the dog or have I seen him in person), seems to be very attached and attracted to his handler . I like dogs like that, but it looks like, in this trial, he leaned a bit too much to one side of the equation. 

One thing to keep in mind is that there are very powerful, serious dogs who also have a ton of prey drive. That for sure is helping in the power dept when you have a dog who has both, and the training keeps it in balance. That is tricky because the training helper has to be presenting the right image/work to the dog consistently and IMO, what they learn first REALLY matters. I don't know how they started the protection work with Javir, maybe someone else does.


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## Mike69

Thanks, Vandal. I was also asking because the dog does appear extremely wired - dare I say "mallinois-like".


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> SNIP>But I am also anti-sport breeding and I think it is detrimental to the breed and I see some impacts from this type breeding that correlates with show breeding. "Lock in Prey" is a phenomena that I often see today with certain types of sport dogs, that you never saw in the breed thirty years ago. Often this type of dog is characterized by intense staring at the object to the point that the dog cannot bark. These dogs are so focused on the prey object that they do not have an ear to the handler. These type of dogs would go through a hedge to chase a ball rather than look to go around it. These dogs often have great grips and exciting long bites, but I really think they are extremes that are not balanced for the utility and versatility the breed is known for. Often, when you see these dogs and examine their pedigree you will find an abundance of Fero and the T litter Nachbarschaft just as you have Canto/Quanto in WGSL or Lance/Sundance in ASL.
> My point is the breeding formula that created the Showlines seems to be taking hold in the sport world.
> I do not think this healthy in the long run for the breed.


sigh - I say this and people get mad at me!!!! LOL LOL of course, they have dogs that have Fero 4 or more times too!

Lee


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## Fast

Nelly said:


> Can I ask, are the current working malinois still suited to doing the job their descendants were originally bred for, herding ? If the answer is no, then I would challenge the notion that they were originally designed to handle excessive prey drive (really goes for any kind of herding dog).


There are herding Malinois. If you look at the statistics from the AKC you will find that a higher percentage of Malinois have herding titles than GSDs.


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## holland

I really liked how he leaned into his handler in the video-that was my favourite part-even if it is a mistake


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## lhczth

Nope, not a Mali and Javir is definitely not locked in prey.  I have seen him on and off the field and spent time around several of his offspring (both on and off the field). These dogs have excellent aggression. I have an understanding of their training, but not enough to where I would want to summarize it here. Suffice it to say, though, that they do not believe protection should be a rough game of tug between the dog and the helper.


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## Mike69

Thanks, Lisa. 

With all this talk about today's Schutzhund dogs (though I realize not all) becoming too "sport", i.e., prey oriented compared to dogs of the past, does anyone have a video clip of one of these "sport" dogs who is working primarily or mostly in "prey" drive as opposed to balanced drives? Forgive my ignorance; just trying to learn.


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## Fast

Mike69 said:


> Thanks, Lisa.
> 
> With all this talk about today's Schutzhund dogs (though I realize not all) becoming too "sport", i.e., prey oriented compared to dogs of the past, does anyone have a video clip of one of these "sport" dogs who is working primarily or mostly in "prey" drive as opposed to balanced drives? Forgive my ignorance; just trying to learn.


Mike, you should ask those people that say that the sport has become too sport oriented to show you videos of the dogs they are talking about.

And just for giggles ask them if their dogs are are prey dogs? Then look at the pedigrees of the dogs they own and breed to and try to figure out why their dogs are so super scary real and everyone else's dogs, that come from the same bloodlines, are sporty prey dogs.


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## cliffson1

Hey Mike,
Just completed a seminar with Bernard Flinks, who told me my 14 month old male could do either sport or police work at a very high level. He also informed us that many top sport dogs would never pass the Police Academy in which he is an instructor. What is the pedigree of my male???Well the mother is linebred 2-4 on Tom z PS, who was a very famous working/police dog out of the Czech Republic. Hey but what do I know, but I do value the opinion of a person who is world class in sport and police training. I also acquired this dog because of the mother's pedigree....hey but that doesn't make me right ....just lucky.


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## cliffson1

One last thing Mike, there are different opinions on the viability of sport and work and the conversion of one to another. I primarily look for lines that will produce good police/patrol dogs. Some of these lines will make good sport some don't. I like to see Czech and DDR blood mixed with West German working....I think it brings something that is needed for police work. Most top sport people won't touch DDR lines. But do your research....when you see good sport dogs you like ask about their pedigrees, when you see good police/SAR dogs you like...ask about their pedigrees or their origin. After a while you will get an opinion for yourself based on first hand knowledge, not something I or anyone else on the internet has said. Good Luck.


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## Mike69

Thanks, Cliff. I appreciate your insight. I was just wondering what a dog working in primarily or solely in prey actually looks like, as opposed to a dog working with balanced drives. Since some have commented that many of today's Sch. dogs to too "sport" oriented, i.e., not balanced and mostly prey monsters, I figured a video of such a dog would be readily available. I'd love to see a side by side comparison of both types of dogs working - perhaps a video of a "sport" oriented dog compared to a video of a dog likeTom z P would be instructive. 

Fast - you crack me up. Thanks for your response.


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## cliffson1

Mike,
It sometimes is not as black and white when you look at the finished product. Case in point, when dogs are starting out in bitework the decoy can usually tell the difference. Many times when dogs are starting to do sleevework; you have different types of dogs. Some dogs will grips, maybe do a circle after the grip, and then become totally consumed by the sleeve. This consumption may be holding and thrashing the sleeve, or it may be calmly holding the sleeve but doesn't want to release. There are other types of dogs that will grip the sleeve and after making the circle will drop the sleeve on their own and refocus on the decoy. Now there are varying degrees of this behavoir, as there as varying degrees of the grips taken when starting bitework, and how dogs respond to pressure and stress in terms of grips and behavoir. The point is, for some dogs, if the training is not careful, the dog will become "sleeve" obsessed. (Of course an excellent trainer will work balanced and at the right times, in terms of maturation to prevent this). But for other dogs with this same training they won't become obseessed with sleeve, but moreso with the origin of the threat. I have seen many dogs today that will continue to fight the sleeve even when the decoy is actively aggressing on them. Regardless of whether this was a result of "too much prey" or the training itself, it is not the kind of dog that is preferred in say patrol work. I hope this makes some sense.


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## Mike69

Yes, actually. It makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I had to chuckle when you mentioned the dog that will continue to attack the sleave even thought he was still engaged by the helper. Made me think of that video a while back where the police dog went after the perp, ripped the jacke off the perp, and continued to attack the jacket while the perp. ran away.


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## Liesje

My 9 month old working line male is really "prey" right now. I believe there is a nice balance there, a lot we could tap into and go many different ways, but the risk with him is that if we keep working in prey and only reward that, that is what he will know and that is what he will stick with. If and when we do bitework with him we are starting to tap into defense. Prey is for having fun, playing tug, playing fetch, chasing rabbits. If we do bitework, prey no longer gets results. For the purpose of this thread, I guess we can call him a "prey" dog, at least it would be very easy for me to only work him that way and get good results and points. He's the kind of dog that won't start learning a bark and hold for a long time because I don't want it to be a prey behavior and he's not mature enough to really tap into defense.


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## onyx'girl

> There are other types of dogs that will grip the sleeve and after making the circle will drop the sleeve on their own and refocus on the decoy. Now there are varying degrees of this behavoir, as there as varying degrees of the grips taken when starting bitework, and how dogs respond to pressure and stress in terms of grips and behavoir. The point is, for some dogs, if the training is not careful, the dog will become "sleeve" obsessed.


My dog has never been sleeve oriented, never wants to prance it around and he'll spit it and then look to the helper for more. UNTIL today! 
We are teaching him to run blinds, after the sleeve was slipped he wouldn't out, kept trying to possess the sleeve.
I think it was a "safe" zone for him. 
He would get a line check/correction if he didn't go around the blind and it was a huge day of learning for him. 
The sleeve has never been so valuable to him as it was today. 
He did out on command when the helper locked up, but once slipped, Karlo wanted to possess it. I thought it was interesting, seeing the change in him.
By the end of the 2nd session, he was running 3 blinds, not pretty, but he understands how to now!


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## robinhuerta

Lies....your pup is actually old enough to add "small increments" of defense, and actually (IMO) ...should.
IF the helper is a "good" helper...adding small amounts of defense right now...will make him stronger. Carlos adds "small amounts"...very sutle...continually...during training... 
It can be the introduction of the "stick" above, under and the sides of the puppy.....
It can be a small "challenge", having the puppy on the wedge or sleeve and having the pup "move/dance" with the helper....
It can be the helper suddenly stopping, raising his hand, slapping the sleeve, touching the dog's face, gently tugging on his ears...etc...etc...
Good helpers can add all these small increments of defense slowly in the training....and it makes the dog stronger and more secure....the pup is slowly learning to fight the helper and keep the fight going to win...
*These things probably don't sound like "defense" work...but they are,...baby puppy steps in defense work....we do this to our small puppies all the time.*
JMO....not trying to tell anyone "how to train their dogs"...


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## Catu

I have a pup of the same age as Lies, I do a lot of what Robin mentions in her post, but I call it work the fight drive of the pup and I do it out of prey. In Akela defense is not there yet and I'm not surprised. I keep in contact with the breeder and he doesn't expect him to be as his sire was as much immature than mine at the same age. IMHO that "should" depends on the lines you are working with. I don't think that because the helper challenges the pup it is working on defense.


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## robinhuerta

Catu....it really is defense work though....prey work has no "perceived" fight back.
It is mostly movement, chase and reward....win.
Those small subtle "fight back" increments is using your puppies defense mechanism.
It's teaching the puppy to use his "fighting drive" to win over the helper and receive his award.....as he matures...it teaches him to keep fighting, until told the fight is over. Defense mechanisms are fight or flight.
It's absolutely important to work a puppy or young dog from prey drive, thru prey drive into fight drive and defense drive. (IMO).
By the age of 8-9 mos...*some*..puppies have balanced their prey/defense drive (through proper training) to the point where they challenge the helper enough to do small courage tests....having no desire to "lock" into sleeve focus. They fight with the helper....their reward is release onto the sleeve. 
Some puppies have more suspicion or defense drive....that they tend to work in "defense" only...and have to be taught to adequately switch their "kill or be killed" thought process, to a calming more prey mind set.
*I think if a puppy is taught the proper way from the beginning....they need not be *locked* into either drive.
....again...I'm not saying anyone should train their dog in any specific manner...nor am I saying or debating any one's theories.....I'm just giving an opinion .
_MY husband is the helper in this family...I simply work with assisting him __through these_ _years... nothing more._


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## robinhuerta

I just wanted to add a little scenario.....
My husband teaches the "bite" command when he has introduces "defense" work.
*Scenario*
The handler and dog are leaving the field. The handler gives the "bite command" and the dog turns around, and through whatever obstacles are placed (ie...chairs, tables, crates, boxes, etc...) the dog immediately seeks out the helper and engages in full bite...and continues until released by the handler.
My husband does not like when dogs can only work (or are taught) in only one drive....he considers them "made dogs". He tends to blame the "helpers" in those situations rather than the dogs.


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## Vandal

It does depend on the dog and their genetics but mostly, as I said before, I am not working pups. You can "challenge" a pup a bit but where and how you do that matters. 

I will not show a dog something in training if I think I will not get a response. That means I will not show the stick or drive the dog unless I expect the dog to "hit back" against the pressure using his aggression. For me, just driving the dog, even in small amounts, and getting no response is a mistake. It dulls the dog to the work. Worse are instances when you get a response , like say pulling hard away from the helper, which is actually avoidance and not "fight". Now, there are dogs with different genetics who view those actions as more of a threat and will respond sooner in the training but I see lots of people just taking the dogs through the motions without asking for a response....or before the dog is old enough to offer one. A puppy does not possess "fight drive". That is something that comes with maturity and the development of social aggression. Yes, I have seen dogs younger than a year who seem to have it but they are not that common, in my experience. I think mostly, social aggression is what is missing in the dogs now. It is less a case of "locked in prey" than it is about a lot less social aggression than what the dogs used to possess. Dogs with social aggression require a certain kind of owner. Most are not interested in dogs like this and nowadays, the people doing SchH have almost ZERO understanding of these dogs. They will say they have weak nerves because they show aggression sometimes younger than other dogs, or, they will claim the dog is going to mature into some kind of dominant, nasty monster when , in reality, maturity usually results in the opposite behavior in the dog. I can't say I blame people for breeding away from this because you can't place these dogs easily. The SchH people are not much more knowledgeable than the general public, so, these dogs are usually doomed to be discarded by them. Add in that the helpers now do not have the skills to work these dogs and it is no wonder they are dying out. If a dog won't play, the majority in SchH now think there is something wrong with the dog or like I said, slap the "weak nerves" label on it. I have owned dogs who , no matter what the helper did, would never view them as anything less than an adversary. It was not in their genetics to want to play in protection. I think that, and again, not prey drive, is what people are talking about. 


Back to the training aspect. The first place a dog should learn to hit back is with his bark. That means, when the helper challenges the dog, the dog responds with a powerful and meaningful bark and the helper is driven backwards or away. I think , as I have said probably before, helpers are simply obsessed about the biting part and think all the pressure comes when the dog is biting. That can create problems where the dog becomes more obsessed with the sleeve because he learns too well, that is where the pressure goes away. Most SchH people are happy when the dog holds the sleeve but they don't usually consider WHY the dog is holding it like that. Some dogs want that sleeve just a bit too much and that can give this impression of "locked in prey" when they are actually "locked in avoidance". 

As a general rule, dogs handle pressure better when they are allowed to bite. When that option is not there, you see who they really are and how well they will stand their ground. Also, when you train the dog from the beginning to use his bark and presence to control the helper vs just their bite, you end up with a more balanced dog. The problem is balance and people who think they are pressuring the dogs when they are not or pressuring the dogs only on the bite.


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## robinhuerta

Annie...shocked as you may be....I agree with your post.
Especially the part of 1st response in barking. * I cannot even count the times my husband has repeated this to others (including myself).*
*Personally, I think training is only as good as the ability of the trainer/helper.*
I can also agree that we have had dogs that showed "nothing" until well over a year old, and would have been disgarded by many sport enthusiasts. Only until the dog matured did it display what we wanted....and honestly, much more.
My DDR female is completely different than my SL dogs.....and her abilities are challenged/trained modified to her alone....not "cookie cutter" trained to fit the masses.
SLs (generally) are NOT the easiest to train nor breed..
We are not top sport enthusiasts (although I love and respect the abilites of those who do)....we simply train dogs to be totally reliable and honestly capable of doing the tasks required or wanted....
I love reading the "ideals" and "theories" of others involved in this breed...and learning something every chance I get.
...I have nothing more to add....


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## Vandal

In case people wonder why I talk so much about dogs from years ago, it is not a case of living in the past as much as it might seem. It is a case of trying to convey knowledge. When you know what it was, you can see more clearly what it is. When I started, there was not any talk about the prey instinct. Sometime around 1980, Berhard Mannel started talking about the prey instinct and using it in protection training. After that, Helmut Raiser picked up on it and the rest is history. What has struck me lately is how differently I am working people's dogs. Back then, my training group was one of the first to become interested in the new theory about prey drive. People were actually snickering when they watched us running in a circle with the dog carrying the sleeve. Mostly, the dogs back then NEEDED that pressure relief of carrying and holding the sleeve. It was so much about aggression and the man, the dogs were suffering on the other side of the equation. The grips, the outs, the control were the problems and not because they were fighting to get the sleeve. The people who asked me to work their dogs mostly had these issues. I was there making more prey attractions and trying to get the dogs to calm down and carry. I was not showing tons of presence, quite the opposite because the dogs had just seen way too much pressure already and again, they were DIFFERENT kinds of dogs. They viewed protection as protection. We see so few of these dogs now, people seem to not believe they ever existed. These dogs had a great deal of fight drive because they also had more social aggression. IMO, you cannot have real fight drive without social aggression. I have never owned a dog who had one without the other.

Anyway, nowadays, I find myself on the other end of the spectrum. I am there showing the dogs more presence and threat trying to bring out the aggression and that fight drive. There are some dogs who still have it and you can sure see it when you work them like that, even if the initial training was all prey. That is the difference I am talking about. That kind of work brings out the fight drive. There are other dogs who just do not have that fight. What they show in response to my presence is stress. Sure, they might bark better but you can see the dog there looking for a way out. Many of these dogs will look even harder at the sleeve because for them, that is the way out. Yes, it is about the training but it is also about the genetics. The better dogs will shift focus to me and quickly, while the other dogs will need much more work and "maybe" offer a decent , ( hard), bite. It's the genetics that have changed where the more protective dogs have been discarded because they did not fit the training that has gone on for so long now. For years I have read people saying that some SchH dogs will not protect. It was like this was ok and normal. That is a rather significant departure from what a GSD is supposed to be but for SchH people, this was ok because they could still win without that. One "big name" constantly talks about how, if he needs protection, he will call the police. Well, that's just ignorant about the breed but rather common now in SchH.


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## Vandal

One other thing that has occurred to me. I have worked some pretty serious Malinois. I think many of those dogs have a high degree of fight drive and not simply prey instinct. That might be one reason why they are easier to train in SchH than many of the GSDs are now.


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## carmspack

yes to Anne -- those were the days my friend , and for all the reasons that Anne mentioned that is why schutzhund is choreography , teaching the steps to a dance .
I don't do anything at all with the pups other than employing instinctive tracking , allowing opportunity to use hunt and search drive , problem solving , throwing them into environments where they learn physical skills of co-ordination, distance and height perception , mastery and confidence , trust in handler , and super socializing getting them out into "the big public" . I don't have them socialize meeting other dogs and playing at dog parks . No meetings with decoys and giving them increments of pressure from batons , or sleeves, or pulling at a rag or teaching grip. One day when they are about 9 months of age we have a bad guy come in , never seen before by the dog so no social connection before or after. He comes on and gives the dog a threat . The dog has to go forward and push him off with his bark . The next time he sees this or another bad guy the dog will be pushed and frustrated . No bite, no contact, building frustration and desire to get him, control him. No social experience with this guy before or after , not seen in any other context . The man leaves the field when the dog is pushing him , the dog is put away at the height of his frustration . The dog may get a bite months later , usually at around a year or so , and then it is deep and meaningful . No avoidance, driving in to the decoy , pushing him backwards, not struggling to get a sleeve away from him. 
The dogs are clear headed . Can address the decoy through fight and desire to dominate the man and situation meanwhile prey stimulation can be done at the side without the dog being distracted or changing his agenda . He stays with "the man". 
If anyone thinks this is wishful thinking I am ready to send a mature , x rayed male out "tomorrow" . Works with speed and obvious pleasure, tracks like a fiend , committs to search till successful and when we had professional evaluation done the comment was "bites like an alligator" . Yet he is a pleasure to live with, sweet with kids, high handler connectiveness and focus , will not depart to go and play or engage with dogs that may be at the scene .
This is my one concern with schutzhund pedigrees being developed - that they are focusing super-prey and some of the natural aggression is being lost . By this I do not mean vicious or bite-happy , or reactive , just the opposite . 
two cents
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wrx_02

Interesting read. I have a working line dog. My first actually. :wub:
I have always wanted a GSD, I read and read and read on them before I made a decision. I am a dog lover, always had a dog growing up so I was wanting one ever since I moved out years ago. 










Lex is 5 months, he has the "stare" I guess you would say. He is so focused. He will break from it though. I take him to stores with me. He stares people down I think cause he is interested. I always look down at him and say "lex!" and he looks up with his tongue out and a waging tail. 

He is highly toy driven and food driven. He is not so into the toy he will knock stuff over to get it. I find myself helping him get his ball that goes under a lower table or behind something he can easily knock down if he wanted to. Instead he comes and gets me to help him.


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## Lucky Paw

my male gsd is like that with cats he went thru a fence and bent the door after one and his soccer ball the only way he will let go is when i grab the collar and say "leave it". he takes exiting bites long he looks to catch grip with the mullers reather then the k9s his bites are really deep and he keeps biting up locks pulls then bites more into the prey and does the same .


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## Wolfgeist

Who resurrected this gem of a thread?! So deliciously informative...


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## debbiebrown

i wonder if we are feeding the prey drive on a daily basis with our working dogs. this isn't exactly on subject, but i got thinking, how many of us rehearse playing retrieve every day with a ball, toy, whatever. i am thinking that is practice for running after prey., feeding the prey drive...........not that it has anything to to with the genetic thing that Cliff mentioned..........but you can certainly bring the prey excitement out by rehearsing running for toys and getting the excitement level up. most working dogs must have a degree of prey drive but i wonder if we didn't do any retrieving or training to bring it out in our dogs if the prey drive could be kept at bay., even in over the top genetic drives.........i know working a dog in certain activities the a degree of prey drive is needed, but can you reverse these over the top prey genetics or balance things by not bringing it out through play/training in that area. call me crazy, maybe to much thinking.....


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## Catu

Actually... that is prey drive and certainly you develop what already comes genetically by playing and training. Chasing cats is more like crittering. I have high prey drive dogs than can sleep next to the cat and at the same time I'm boarding a Siberian husky that you could not teach not to chase the chickens, but wouldn't run after a ball or tug if his life depended on it.


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## robk

We have a dog at our club that goes back to Fero 7 times in 8 generations. I have heard him bark maybe twice in a year. All he does is scream like a banshee while being worked in protection. He is also completely fixated on the sleeve. Zero interest in the helper. Now from the video's I have watched of Fero, he did not seam to be this way. He seamed to be a solid dog with some good fight in him. What is it about the back masking that brings this psychotic prey drive out?


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## cliffson1

Been telling people this for years....but when the sport bug bites; people lose sight of balance.


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## x11

maybe if sport eg schutshund was just about achieving a standard and maybe high, medium, or low in the standard and not have a point system there would be no need to go to extreme breeding practices to get dogs capable of that extra point. 

of course you would not have a winner as such just dogs proven to work at a high standard.


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## debbiebrown

i have a Fero and Tiekerhook decendant, and i can see what Cliff is talking about.


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## pets4life

robk said:


> We have a dog at our club that goes back to Fero 7 times in 8 generations. I have heard him bark maybe twice in a year. All he does is scream like a banshee while being worked in protection. He is also completely fixated on the sleeve. Zero interest in the helper. Now from the video's I have watched of Fero, he did not seam to be this way. He seamed to be a solid dog with some good fight in him. What is it about the back masking that brings this psychotic prey drive out?



yeah i saw a ddr dog like this also he never barks but he just screams when he sees he gets to bite lol 

A guy that saw this said his ddr dog did it also lol

god i hate that scream, imagine if your dog did that? lol how annoying it would be


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## robk

The funny thing is, everyone at the club praises that dog becuase he has so much drive. :headbang:


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## Jax08

I Hate that scream. Jax does it when she hears a noise and thinks there is something outside or sees a dog walking by the house. I can move her away from the window or door and she will just sit there and SCREAM. Ugh!


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## GSDElsa

robk said:


> The funny thing is, everyone at the club praises that dog becuase he has so much drive. :headbang:


Ew. I could not be in your club, my ears would give out!

My club is opposite thank goodness....steady deep barking is all that is acceptable...my ear drums are eternally grateful!


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