# Ipo woes



## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

Well, We are not returning to our trainer. He is a nice guy, and has done nothing wrong, but he just is not working for Genali and I.

He does positive reinforcement only and while I believe that is great for some dogs, it is not great for Genali. In the past month, she has regressed to becoming an incorrigible brat. Trainer has told me to become a human "pez dispenser" with the treats, and now Genali will NOT do anything unless she is positive that she is going to get a treat. Her recall is GONE, she will not sit for me, and the landsharking has escalated to the point of pain. He wanted me to redirect her when she bit by getting a toy and playing with the toy with her so she would bite the toy and not me. So, now the brat bites me when she wants to play. I talked to the trainer and he said to stick with what we are doing, but I cannot have her acting like this around my grandchild.

Trainer also told me that I was never to say "NO" to Genali but was always to redirect behavior with a toy. That is not working at all. Genali is a great dog, intelligent with a high will-to-please, but she needs strong boundaries. Without those boundaries, she is miserable to be around.

Trainer also told me that I was not to play tug, fetch, or hide and seek with her. Those are her favorite games! He wants me to play a game where I throw a treat and have her run after it, then I am to throw another treat before she gets back to me. SO, now, she runs around expecting me to throw treats so she can chase them. We've been working on focus, but her focus is SPOT ON. She is too demanding, and that needs to come under control. Trainer says to always provide treats, but being so treat heavy with her is causing problems. I will NOT allow Genali to order treats at will.

I wanted to do IPO to be able to spend more time with my dog and for her and I to enjoy each other more. But we are both frustrated because we can't play the games that we love. I can't enjoy my dog because her behavior is going backwards so fast. 

I don't know if we are completely done with IPO, perhaps I can find a more balanced training method with another trainer. Right now, I am going to go play fetch with my girl, and then we are going to the woods to play hide and seek.

IF any of you know of any trainers near Iredell County NC that may work for us, please let me know! :smile2:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Please PM me the name of that trainer and I'll look at some of my contacts to see who might be a good fit.

fyi....be prepared to drive to the trainer you like. I drive 3 hours each way for my trainers.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Search for a club, and most of the puppy stuff you can do yourself. Once you start helper work you'll need a trainer, and it's nice to have a group to help you get started tracking. 

An IPO trainer that says no tug??? hmm...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I count 9 USCA clubs in NC.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

I feel you with positive reinforcement. With Angel my very soft golden she only works with positive reinforcement if you are too hard she will shut down, if she knows you are getting frustrated she will shut down. With Luna she isnt soft, she works with both positive and heavy hand, "leave it" is a perfect example. Angel 1 medium tap on the nose with a stern leave it and she will not even look at it, with Luna I did 3 medium to hard taps and she thought it was play time, Angel look at her then me and walked to her crate like nope I'm not being apart of this mess. I know german shepherds are famous for being a harder breed but Luna gets me so mad sometimes that I tell my wife I feel like screaming sometimes. I will say this though when she is in training mode she is in the zone and she means business but when she is in the screw you mode she will make you think about how comfortable a pair of solid black german shepherd sock would feel.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ditch that "trainer".There is a huge difference between rewarding and bribing.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, go back to what works and what you both enjoy. Good trainers are flexible in the methods they use. The "soft approach" worked well with my Whippets but I didn't use treats after they understood the commands. One of them was a super sly and elusive one and once in a while I rewarded his recall with a treat to keep his "memory fresh". They also never tried me out to climb the social ladder.
Then came my GSDs .....


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Am I reading that right, that was an IPO trainer?? No, just ...no.

Doesn't even sound like a remotely breed savvy trainer. Positive only for a German Protection breed pup? Again..no, just no. Operant condition with no correction tools like prong or E collar? SURE! But positive only, no negative outcomes type happy gumball treat dispenser stuff? Nope.

Sorry you had a set back, but DON'T chalk it up to that being IPO training. It wasn't. It nearly can't be without tug?

A good club is definitely worth traveling to. I drive 1.5 hours each way which is not horrible, but I would even drive farther. That is how valuable the training has been. I had a brat. Believe me, I know what you mean. I had a PO trainer come in for my extremely fearful pit mix. I did let her "meet" Valor. She said he would benefit from PO, and that she knew of several IPO clubs that were going the direction of PO and zero correction tools or methods. Just PO. Yeah...you don't. You just don't. 

Again, sorry..I know how excited you were to start going this direction. Keep looking, when you find the right place things will click quickly. In the meantime go back to step 1 with Genali and do what you were doing in the first place to get her where she was.

Sorry so many edits. My fingers are fat and swollen from taking the dog for a walk in this heat lol He is fine, I need a drink.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

Wow! Thank you all for the support.

This trainer is a really nice guy, so I hate to "leave" him, but I gotta do right by my girl. He does have GSDs, so his methods must work on some of them, lol. But Genali is just hardcore. We will continue to treat, but the "pez dispenser" idea has got to go.

JAX, I sent you that PM. I really appreciate your offer!

Genali and I had a good day. We went to the park for a game of tug, and played in the woods until we got hot. Lotsa fun! She is a little confused right now because there are consequences.....she put her teeth on my arm only to get a firm "NO" followed by a firm nose tap. Lol, she backed up and cocked her head at me like "WHOA MOM! I am the princess remember?". I feel bad that she is confused, but we will work it out.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

That is good, glad you feel better! Watch that nose tap, maybe someone here can give you a better correction. If you do get into IPO later on, especially.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

CometDog said:


> That is good, glad you feel better! Watch that nose tap, maybe someone here can give you a better correction. If you do get into IPO later on, especially.


It is a two finger nose tap not a whole hand LOL. When I say hard I am not talking a mashing it is more of a flick. However because i want to get i to IPO i will lay off that. This IPO stuff has been difficult for me. Jumping is a prime example as is biting. I am not squashing them because i do not want to harm her IPO instincts. Biting isnt as bad as it use to be I am chalking it up to puppy, her jumping tho is absolutely without a doubt the MOST annoying thing about her. Normally I would snack her and say no jump, Athena got the hang of it fast but I do not do that with Luna. OP glad to hear, your doing it right by your pup.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm just going to step in here. I actually know this trainer and he is very experienced. He has trained with the same prople i have but for decades longer. In my 5 minutes in IPO, I have learned that we don't always see the value in a training method until we have gained the experienced and our brains can process the information to understand where the next step is going. Positive training at one stage does not mean positive only training forever. This person has very balanced methods.

I'm also seeing the most adamant responses from the least experienced people. To that, I'll just say there are a lot of little steps to build a strong foundation so don't be so quick to jump.

I do not tell my dogs No. I issue a correction and leave it at that. I don't correct my puppies for biting. I trade them so they understand what they can bite and what they can't. I would NEVER bop a potential IPO dog in the nose for biting. Thats a good way for your dog to never bite and become overly sensitive to the stick hit as the helpers arm comes down at their face. As far as not playing tug, the trainer may be trying to develop the dogs bite. If there is a shallow grip then there is work thst can quickly become undone by just playing tug.

. I know exactly where this trainer is going with the food game. He's building the send out. It's worth 10 points.

Things aren't always so clear cut.

Having said all that....sometimes you just don't jive with a method. That's fine. But many of the higher level trainers are using 99 % positive training methods. They are all very similar. All of them learning from each other. 

I will still look at the others trainers for the OP. This post was more for those jumping on a wagon that they have very limited knowledge of. The more you train, the more you will understand how very much you need to learn.

OP - I will send you a list next week. I have a training seminar I'm organizing this weekend


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

So, I do not know who the trainer is....but if like Jax says he is knowledgeable/balanced etc. (and I have no reason not to believe that), why can't you go back to the trainer and say "hey, this doesn't seem to be working and I am having these problems. What else can we do or where do we go from here." Or even "why shouldn't we play tug or why can't I correct." I know I have done that a ton and my trainer has always worked with me on finding a method that works (especially when he isn't there lol).


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

LOL

[forrest gump] That’s all I got to say about that. [Forrest gump]

While you’re lookin for a new trainer, I love this book. Fed 5-0 buddy of mine who trained his own dog for work recommended it to me. Schutzhund Obedience : Training in Drive https://www.amazon.com/dp/0966302028/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_J8RkBbDXFFD2A


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The way @ Genalis_mom describes the trainer's methodology sounds an awful lot like a pet store training program.Maybe I'm misunderstanding?If the method and long term goals and results aren't clicking with you and your dog,have a discussion with your trainer first.If it's just not working out it's time to look elsewhere.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I think building foundations positively is huge. I wish that would’ve been the case for my girl. I think it builds more confidence because the dog is learning and the learning is fun. I think what we have to remember sometimes is that sport dogs aren’t always nice “pet” dogs in their puppyhood. There’s times where we nurture the drive more than we do obedient house behaviour. I’m not saying you can’t have a sport dog with pet manners, but they aren’t as much of a priority at times (or so I’ve learned). 

Most of the great trainers I respect do everything pretty much crazy positive from puppyhood and onwards. In fact, one of the most highly regarded obedience trainers in Canada doesn’t even introduce corrections or saying “no” until the dog has done exactly what he wants perfectly over 1000’s of times. And generally that isn’t until the dog is over the age of one. It takes a lot of patience, but I think that’s a good thing. Removing yourself emotionally and learning to be upbeat and positive while training is so important. 

Plus, “no” needs to have a meaning, so when you use it, it should have an impact. That might be what your training is trying to work towards. Lots of pet owners use commands repetitively to the point where the command loses its meaning. 

It might help to sit down with your trainer, if you really do like him, and ask him to explain where he’s coming from for his training methodologies. And it might be important to discuss whether or not you’re working on developing a sport dog or an obedient pet dog. They aren’t mutually exclusive, but a pushy dog in sport can be desirable. A pushy pet dog is an annoyance.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

hoytn said:


> It is a two finger nose tap not a whole hand LOL. When I say hard I am not talking a mashing it is more of a flick. However because i want to get i to IPO i will lay off that. This IPO stuff has been difficult for me. Jumping is a prime example as is biting. I am not squashing them because i do not want to harm her IPO instincts. Biting isnt as bad as it use to be I am chalking it up to puppy, her jumping tho is absolutely without a doubt the MOST annoying thing about her. Normally I would snack her and say no jump, Athena got the hang of it fast but I do not do that with Luna. OP glad to hear, your doing it right by your pup.


I’m not gonna try and speak for @CometDog here

But I also don’t like the concept of nose taps as corrections. The amount of force used/pain caused etc isn’t the issue in my mind. The problem as I see it for future protection work is developing inhibitions around the dogs nose being touched. I.e. Getting hit in the nose means “stop” or “chill out”, that’s really not a mental connection you want made. 

In fact I intentionally do the opposite and rub my dogs nose/muzzle during tug play. Started with my hand as puppies and working up to pushing/grinding with the ulna when they get older so they learn to completely ignore it.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

@Jax08

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help. I am so grateful that I am nearly in tears. What you are saying does make sense.

I *think* I may have MY attitude worked out now. maybe. I'll have another session with my trainer and see what he says. I do hope it works out, I do like the guy. Thank you so much, Jax08.

As for the nose....I did not hit my dog. It was a one finger across the nose. I had tried the toy distraction and she would NOT respond, choosing instead to continue to chew on my arm. It was quite painful, she drew blood. A one finger tap across the nose, not hard enough to hurt, just enough pressure to gain her attention. I will reserve such an action for extreme cases, but I do have a 3 year old in the house, so IPO or not, I just can't tolerate such biting.





Jax08 said:


> I'm just going to step in here. I actually know this trainer and he is very experienced. He has trained with the same prople i have but for decades longer. In my 5 minutes in IPO, I have learned that we don't always see the value in a training method until we have gained the experienced and our brains can process the information to understand where the next step is going. Positive training at one stage does not mean positive only training forever. This person has very balanced methods.
> 
> I'm also seeing the most adamant responses from the least experienced people. To that, I'll just say there are a lot of little steps to build a strong foundation so don't be so quick to jump.
> 
> ...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Talk to him.  If you still can't jive with methods, there are 8 other clubs in your state


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

It may help, when you sit down with the trainer, to ask that he explain the reasoning behind the foundation is laying. For example " why am I throwing these treats like this? What is the end goal to doing this?" It will give him opportunity to explain that it sets the foundation for the send away and he can explain the steps you will go through. 

Sometimes a trainer doesn't think to explain the reasoning or the end result they are looking for. They have been doing it a long time and to them it's "common sense" they may forget a total newbie has no idea what the end product is going to be.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

MOst definitely! I feel like a total clutz and absolute idiot at our sessions because I have no idea what I am doing. Seriously. lol





gsdsar said:


> It may help, when you sit down with the trainer, to ask that he explain the reasoning behind the foundation is laying. For example " why am I throwing these treats like this? What is the end goal to doing this?" It will give him opportunity to explain that it sets the foundation for the send away and he can explain the steps you will go through.
> 
> Sometimes a trainer doesn't think to explain the reasoning or the end result they are looking for. They have been doing it a long time and to them it's "common sense" they may forget a total newbie has no idea what the end product is going to be.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Genalis_mom said:


> MOst definitely! I feel like a total clutz and absolute idiot at our sessions because I have no idea what I am doing. Seriously. lol


Welcome to the world of IPO. Most days I feel like I"m learning to color between the lines again...unsuccessfully! lol


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So I know almost nothing about IPO but when I read your initial post I was thinking along the same lines as the explanation you were given on most stuff, and now I understand the rest! Thanks @Jax08!
Most of the trainers I have met are bad at explaining and just expect that you will obey and all will be good. 

I don't like No,(because when I do use it it is generally urgent and vital that the dog stops what it is doing instantly and without hesitation) but I also don't really train puppies. I let them grow, explore, develop while I shape behaviors. By the time we get to training things are easy because the relationship is there and they are conditioned to react in certain ways to achieve what I desire. I don't correct biting for the very simple reason that correcting it turns it into a game and they do exactly what your girl is doing. It doesn't matter what you do, you are reacting and that's fun for her. Biting=attention.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

One trainer here also had us throw treats in all directions; once the dog finds it, you call him ajust by the name and when he comes back, you throw another treat in another direction. It is to establish a quick retrieve. It did work with Griff as at that time he'd rather kept toys to himself but now he is good in retrieve. Dogs also learn to look in the direction you are pointing to. Your trainer may very well learn from you to explain his ways better.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

"Your trainer may very well learn from you to explain his ways better." 

That is a really good point. 

Giving up a an established fun home game is really hard even when it is necessary for the foundation of a sport. Once my boy was on all three odors during the beginning of NoseWorks classes, I was told to only use food at home paired with an odor. It kind of kicked the fun out of the game for everyone else In the family but I kept to the instructions even though I didn't ask why.

Come to find out a year later, the trials incorporate food as a distracter had I ignored the instructions, we would be facing difficulties right about now.

I had to weigh what was being given up and what was going to be gained from it and for us, the sport gave so much more than the giving up of the home game. We still play find it games at home with his ball but not with food.

I would ask the trainer what fun games can you do in lieu of, maybe f he/she realizes that the tug is an integral part of your every day life, he may choose to offer instructions for that. I don't know much about IPO training, so it's just a thought


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Genalis_mom said:


> Wow! Thank you all for the support.
> 
> This trainer is a really nice guy, so I hate to "leave" him, but I gotta do right by my girl. He does have GSDs, so his methods must work on some of them, lol. But Genali is just hardcore. We will continue to treat, but the "pez dispenser" idea has got to go.
> 
> ...


And that right there could be exactly why he's steering you away from tug. Not every dog responds to tugging the same way, and even if they tug like demons, it doesn't automatically mean its doing anything productive. Of course I'm just guessing with your pup, but the point is not to assume something online is the right approach in every case. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about "doing" IPO. Its still dog training, but the only real significant difference is working a dog in drive or if you want, working with the drive rather then trying to suppress it all the time. The little signs that show you they're getting it are easy to miss,especially in tracking.

Something else, what you're describing is a sensitive dog. Not what I would think of as hardcore. There's nothing wrong with that, but you need to keep something in mind when it comes to corrections. Its probably not going to be so much about the physical part of it, more about the emotion on your part. That "NO" may have more effect then a bop on the nose, so that's an area I'd suggest you get a little input from the trainer on. From what you've posted and what Jax know's of this guy, I wouldn't be in too big a hurry just yet to move on. Its possible he isn't explaining details well enough for you, but with play and keeping away from a lot of pressure, I'd be more inclined to give that a chance before I'd go the other direction. That doesn't mean you can't teach her some manners and to listen away from sport. Its easy enough to keep those things separate. Be a little more patient and see how things start to come together here and there.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

In all fairness, the original post sounded like she went with an all PO trainer and her previously young good behavior trained GSD was not responding well and regressing to overbearing and running the show the way young GSDs can do.

When we have a post, we can only go by text feedback and that is the way things sounded. Good news someone actually knows the trainer and that the trainer is balanced. 

I don't know if I am one of the inexperienced respondents you were talking about..but in any case, I am not inexperienced. My family has had GSDs my whole life, all went through "you know what" stages, all would have run over everyone without a good training foundation that had corrections as well as praise. GSDs have a tendency to be smarter and more manipulative than other breeds and historically do not do great with the petco treats for everything and just ignore bad behavior trend (which is what the original post sounded like) I am new to "sport" but not to having well mannered dogs. The only ill mannered dog I had was a Jack Russel. It was The Devil lol

Sorry if I didn't get all the behind the scene facts from the original post, and did not realize no tugging could be a thing (that part I am not experienced with)..I chalk it up to all the posts we get about bites and aggression with limited info where people have an absolute idea what should happen with the dog. Sometimes limited knowledge of a situation is dangerous. I try to remind myself of that on forums all the time, but it is easy to get ahead of oneself.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

@CometDog

You wrote :In all fairness, the original post sounded like she went with an all PO trainer and her previously young good behavior trained GSD was not responding well and regressing to overbearing and running the show the way young GSDs can do.


This is a pretty good synopsis of what is going on with Genali. Although I have apparently not grasped (yet) what my trainer is asking me to do, Genali has turned into a hellion since we started with him. I was frustrated and ready to just give up when I typed the original post. I need to have an honest talk with the trainer and come up with a plan that will allow me to show Genali how to be a suitable house companion without doing anything to hold her back in her IPO. Hopefully, the trainer and I can come up with a plan that works for all of us. As I have said, he is a really nice guy. I just needed to hear what should have been obvious to me so that I could calm down.

Everyone's perspective on this thread has been valuable to me, even those without experience in IPO. Jax's help has been astounding!


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Yeah sorry if I jumped the gun too. Your original sentence says "positive only trainer". It's rare someone actually knows the person being discussed. Just goes to show more questions are always better than immediate advice on a forum. My bad too 

We always had protection trained GSDs imported in as I was groing up and through my teen years. Some were studded out, some where sold. Some had pups that were eventually all sold. None were sport dogs..and some where just downright not safe for company :/ I was landsharked to death as a kid. They knew not to when adults were watching. They all needed a firm hand. They all grew out of it. I have an old picture I have to get from my mom. Me with the dogs that made me love the breed when I was very small. They were protection trained, yet I'd play army with them and read to them. 

One sunk his teeth into my butt and back of my arm when I was 17. He was not known to me as I was not around a lot due to being a teen..and I opened the "wrong kennel run" Had the fleeting "that isn't Petey" moment in my head. Thought I could make the gate, didn't. 

When I was little my father use to leave me alone in his camper truck with the trained GSDs..in NYC...while he worked in The Bottom Line (family was in the music business- a few famous people had our dogs). Ah the 70s. I would have been a CPS case now! 

Just a little background of why I cringe when I hear PO and GSD in same sentence. I totally understand the early formative bonds and reward based shaping..but a pup approaching teen stage, and regressing, and the pez dispenser method will have most people saying "hmmm try something different" lol


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

Genali is my first GSD. I grew up with and always have had Dobermans, with the exception of one mastiff and a dachshund (never again will I have a little dog!). I am used to bull headed dogs, but Genali is a whole new level of "holy cow". She is bossy and manipulative. She is sassy and mouthy and BULLHEADED. She is either full throttle or passed out on the floor, there is no in between. She talks nonstop......n.o.n.s.t.o.p. Some barking, but mostly weird little mouthy moans and groans the occasional half growl. She is velcro'd to my side. I literally can't pee without watching, lol. She is loyal and loving, and has this insane desire to keep me happy, she can't stand it when I am displeased with her. But, she could care less if anyone else in the house is unhappy. She is driving them crazy. But, even when she is being you-know-what on wheels, she is my girl!

My first baby sitter was a dobe named Khan. We got him when I was three. When I was old enough to go to school, he kept me safe when I got home until a grown up arrived. I love the breed, but after I lost my last one, I could not get another. I've never had one of my own dogs bite me, but was bitten by my sister's pit bull. The dog didn't mean to bite me, he was going after my sister, but I stuck my arm in the way so she wouldn't get nailed in the face.

Genali is doing much better today. I think she was feeding off my frustrations. Too many troubles on my plate this week and I got overwhelmed. I think I just needed a good kick in the butt!


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

It sounds like you have a great GSD  

I was originally looking for a Dobe after losing my last GSD. The search for a line that didn't have health or temperament problems because exhausting! I kept getting conflicting info about breeders. Unlike here where experienced people either all like the breeder or do not, there seemed to be much more disagreement on that topic in the Dobe world. My goal there was avoiding THAT MUCH fur lol. My little pit is so sleek you don't even know he is ion the house. But, my heart is with GSDs. I'll take the fur. Plus, images working dogs in sweaters in the cold on the Dobe pages was starting to get to me lol I guess I am culturally a fur tolerating GSD lover.

I heard you on the Dachshund. My JRT drove me to professional training for the first time ever. Then I starting enjoying the training after her and just started always going that direction. My GSDS growing up and through my late teens were Handler owned and trained. A lot of NJ trainers/protection people hung around with us in the 70s and 80s too. I don't remember their names. 

I remember those GSDS being more centered and serious then what I have seen around today..but that could totally be old memories glossing over anything but the positive aspects. Excpet for the 6 months and under landsharking especially when I was little little. That is embedded in my brain and why I do not allow it on my kids. It was genuinely scary and not very fair to me lol Especially when you have a 5 month old GSD and a 40" tall kid :0


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