# Training Method Concerns



## vulnox (Oct 28, 2013)

Hello!

I have a six month old GSD who I took to PetsMart for puppy training back when he was maybe four months old. He learned sit, stay, leave it, take it, down, and to respond to his name. He is ridiculously easy to train and PetsMart uses all positive reinforcement training. I worked with him a lot at home, and aside from situations where he has distractions (other dogs/new environments) I can get him to respond to most commands with just hand signals.

My aunt was dogsitting for some friends who have two dogs that she said were amazing in how they behaved. When they had to go outside they lined up in specific spots and waited for each to be let out, etc, lots of impressive stuff. We found out they were trained at a place nearby and I scheduled my dog, Archer, to go there for more advanced training as the instructor works for the local zoo, seems to know his stuff.

I couldn't make the first class due to having to stay late for work, but it was an intro class and no dogs came. So my wife went. She came home and said we would need a leash and a choker collar. I was immediately unsure about this class when I heard that as most things I read say a choker is needed for more difficult to train dogs, and Archer has been anything but. Plus, and I know some here view our pets as just "dogs", but I feel I have an obligation to this puppy as another living creature I agreed to care for to not just start choking him.

I called them up and their front desk said it shouldn't be required, which was a relief, but when I showed up the trainer immediately was on me about not having one. After discussing it a bit I agreed to give it a try as I was told it was only used for quick corrections and they don't teach owners to actually hold the collar in a choke position. Since my GSD still all but chokes himself sometimes when "pulling" on his normal collar, I thought if it truly was a quick pull and it might prevent that, I would give it a try for that one class.

As the class proceeded I didn't like what I saw. The instructor was having us yank the collar when giving commands, so "Tell them 'sit' and then pull the leash". So it became more of a trigger action than a correcting action. Archer already sits, he was sitting in most cases, but we still had to do the action. Eventually Archer, who is not a skittish or fearful dog at all, started trying to lay down when I was giving him commands in fear of the collar. The instructor wanted me "correct" that action.

I sat across from a boxer that was in the class who was also trying to lay down and the instructor himself was basically holding the front paws of the dog off the ground in a choking manner. Which was against what I was told we were going for.

Archer all but stopped listening to my basic commands, he became more concerned with the next "correction". I left and told him that I couldn't do this and they were good enough to refund my money.

Sorry for the very long story, but I saw very happy dogs turn to some of the saddest looking creatures by the end of that class. Even an extremely affectionate golden retriever looked beaten down at the end.

Normally when I train with Archer he is attentive and happy. I can train with him for well over an hour and he just keeps wanting to do things as he gets his treats and he gets attention from me which he can't seem to get enough of (for better or worse depending on the situation).

Archer isn't perfect, he's only six months old, but he didn't seem like himself in that class and I feel I would rather work twice as much with him in a positive way than to continue with punishment based training. 

I know there are some varied thoughts on Chokers vs. Positive training, etc. This isn't even really an anti-choker kind of thing. It is more of a question of do those of you out there that do this kind of training feel I was being over-protective of Archer?

Thank you!


----------



## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I dont like training like that personally.
I correct only with "no" attached and only if my dog doesn't do something I know she knows how to do. By pairing your command word "sit" with a correction all you are teaching is that sit is a bad word. I would have ditched that class too

Use what motivates your dog - it sounds like he really likes training with you how you guys are doing it.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Not my style at all. It's hard but it's really beneficial if you can observe a class in advance and decide whether their style matches yours enough to be effective.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If done correctly and tactfully it's doubly reinforcing to teach the dog commands they already know with positive reinforcement. There is a period of confusion. Push through it and the dog will learn how to quickly perform the action to avoid the pressure thus making the action itself rewarding.

Lots of people can't stomach pushing through what you saw. If you stick it out and it's being done right and it sounds like maybe it is (although I'd be using prong collars) within 3 days I promise you you will see the happy puppy again. Only this time the behavior will be much stronger and it will be easier to proof against distraction.


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I have one very difficult little furmonster and although I have been tempted, I have not used a prong with her. Go with your gut


----------



## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

I use a correction collar on my dog and when used properly, I think they are great tools. Our training club uses them, and we don't have any issues like the poor pups you're describing! It doesn't sound like it was used very well in this case... I don't blame you for leaving!! Any collar, even a flat collar, can be harmful to a dog that's poorly handled... I feel bad for the dogs in this class. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

To me the problem isn't the tool but the method. I use a prong and it's a great tool but it's never made Delgado shut down like the OP is describing, if it did I would quickly stop and think again about what I'm trying to get across.


----------



## vulnox (Oct 28, 2013)

I appreciate the responses, and as I mentioned but want to reiterate as to not get on the bad side of anyone, I am not in my post saying I am against the collar itself as a general tool. I understand the uses in more difficult dogs, and even in general training I can see the advantages of having a way to push away unwanted behavior.

My question was more about the class itself, which you have all responded to and I appreciate. Just wanted to be absolutely clear on this. 

Thank you again for the responses. I feel better about taking him out of the class, what made me unsure is when I started looking for other classes in the Indianapolis area, quite a few of the more serious trainers seemed to use choke or prong collars in their training, regardless of dog temperament, and that got me wondering if I was the problem when it came to this last class. I think I might just need to go see some classes at the other training sites.


----------



## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

vulnox said:


> My question was more about the class itself, which you have all responded to and I appreciate. Just wanted to be absolutely clear on this.


I definitely think taking him out was a good idea... They were correcting while giving the command! How does that even make sense... My dog would shut down too


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

vulnox said:


> I appreciate the responses, and as I mentioned but want to reiterate as to not get on the bad side of anyone, I am not in my post saying I am against the collar itself as a general tool. I understand the uses in more difficult dogs, and even in general training I can see the advantages of having a way to push away unwanted behavior.
> 
> My question was more about the class itself, which you have all responded to and I appreciate. Just wanted to be absolutely clear on this.
> 
> Thank you again for the responses. I feel better about taking him out of the class, what made me unsure is when I started looking for other classes in the Indianapolis area, quite a few of the more serious trainers seemed to use choke or prong collars in their training, regardless of dog temperament, and that got me wondering if I was the problem when it came to this last class. I think I might just need to go see some classes at the other training sites.


It's a misconception that the tool is for difficult to train dogs. The malinois here learn very quickly and are very easy to treat train. Negative reinforcement through collar pressure is layered over preexisting known commands to strengthen the behavior that's why it's called negative REINFORCEMENT. If you want reliability without resorting to more extreme positive reinforcement tactics it's a good way to go. Again though I'd use prongs. Chokers are silly.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Think of it this way. You probably hated to do reports in school and if you're like me you waited to the last second to do them until the pressure mounted to get it done or fail and have to deal with the fallout. As soon as you were done that weight was off your shoulders. Felt good right? Same kind of concept with the training. Doing it relieves pressure.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I would have pulled my dog out too. Immediately.

I am really, really not a fan of blanket applications of force to soft dogs.


----------



## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

Was it a prong collar or a choke collar? Choke collar are unsafe and most trainers do not use! I go to two different training facilities. When my dogs are puppies it is all positive reinforcement, as my dogs enter into the teenage faze I go to a trainer here in Indiana that has years of experience with German shepherds. At first glance his methods seems harsh because the prong looks scary and some dogs do not respond to prong right away. My trainer runs his obedience class like boot camp. He teaches you hands on how to use the prong properly. He is very firm but his dogs are amazing! They are balanced and beautiful specimens. 
I would not ever go to a facility that used choke chains. But don't be thrown by the use of + & - reinforcement. Athena is a wonderful balanced dog and handle most situations I throw at her. Good luck with training!


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

There are ways to train that make the dog happy when a correction is given but it takes a long time and is relatively complex. Regular training establishments do not use these methods due to limited knowledge and time constraints. Typically these classes are for several weeks and at the end of those 6, 8 or 10 sessions the dog has to graduate so shortcut ways are preferred by clients and trainers. They do work but most dogs develop a sad demeanor when going through the exercises. It is not possible to get the end result described below in a 6-8 week class.

If the trainer has the knowledge and the client is willing to put in the time, then they can train using the long road. The dog is prepared with drive building games and introduced to markers in the way of play (about 100 sessions). Then stim is used in timing with release marker so dog associates a collar correction with reward and perks up rather than shut down (another 100 sessions or so).

I am making it very simple but want to describe the main differences/reasoning between a 6 week training class and a 2 year class. The end result is very different and the means/time/resources required are also very different. Some people go through the long journey but still do it in a way to make the dog appear flat, some people do it right. At the same time some people want the dog to know a set number of commands in a couple of the 6-8 week classes, all is ok but best to understand then make choice. It is not easy but the first step is to understand the differences then if interested seek out the resources needed to help teach you.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As Merciel notes - would you use a prong on a soft dog though? 

The reason I ask... I used a prong and with proper guidance from a trainer who did exactly what you describe layering over known commands and my german shepherds did not shut down, got great results.

BUT, our little Aussie who has the temperament of silly putty shuts down sometimes with even a strong verbal correction. I get the same consistency, same layering but corrections are very mild and no prong needed with her.





Baillif said:


> It's a misconception that the tool is for difficult to train dogs. The malinois here learn very quickly and are very easy to treat train. Negative reinforcement through collar pressure is layered over preexisting known commands to strengthen the behavior that's why it's called negative REINFORCEMENT. If you want reliability without resorting to more extreme positive reinforcement tactics it's a good way to go. Again though I'd use prongs. Chokers are silly.


----------



## vulnox (Oct 28, 2013)

Great responses here. I had never thought of the choke as being worse than the prong, I always thought of the prong as an escalation of the choke. That could be due to lack of knowledge on the prong collars though. I understand the basic idea behind them but not their impact on the dog compared to a choker.

I also agree on the longer term training, but it seems like a lot of these classes don't expect perfect behavior at the end of six weeks, but give you the tools for life-long training. Previous classes have usually said they like to see the basics of the behavior but it will take a lot of work over a much longer period to get consistent results. Having said that, I really want my next trainer to be one I can work with for a long period of time. It is part of why I did not continue the PetsMart classes. Beyond the Intermediate course, there is advanced, and that is basically it. And even the advanced is more about doing the intermediate but with more distractions. 

Anyway, thank you all again, this thread has helped me feel better about taking Archer out of that class but also given me some hope for finding something better going forward.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, the prong is a different type of collar. 

I don't use prong collars, but that is because I don't need them. I do use a choke on occasion, but only on trained dogs. Normally, I use a martingale which has a strip of leather or nylon around the dog's neck and tightens with a small section of chain, like a prong collar, but no prongs. It is not a correction collar, but the little bit of chain does let the dog know it is getting too far away when ******. And a dog trained with a martingale will act the same way with a choke chain used the same way. At least mine do. 

I would have taken my dog out of that class too. 

You have a puppy that will do what you want if you show him what that is. work with that. It sounds like you are doing great. Find another class because a good class will give you some things you can't get on your own: other dogs and dog owner distractions around, and a set of eyes that can watch you interact with your dog, and offer suggestions from what they see of BOTH of your body language. It can be excellent, when the trainer is good.

Training should be fun for you and your dog. 

You can only train to high levels if you and the dog are engaged and enthusiastic about training. You cannot get there by beating a dog down.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> As Merciel notes - would you use a prong on a soft dog though?
> 
> The reason I ask... I used a prong and with proper guidance from a trainer who did exactly what you describe layering over known commands and my german shepherds did not shut down, got great results.
> 
> BUT, our little Aussie who has the temperament of silly putty shuts down sometimes with even a strong verbal correction. I get the same consistency, same layering but corrections are very mild and no prong needed with her.


I use them on soft dogs all the time. Just not with the same intensity as I use on harder dogs. I hate the word correction. I hate it I hate it I hate it. I'm not married to prongs but I do date them on a regular basis.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL! Ok ok....

I recall you posting that you adjust the training to the individual dog, so you're using the same tools but toning down the ummm .. Well the other word for the word you hate... 


And theoretically speaking if you could train a dog effectively without the use of a prong, why not forgo it?





Baillif said:


> I use them on soft dogs all the time. Just not with the same intensity as I use on harder dogs. I hate the word correction. I hate it I hate it I hate it. I'm not married to prongs but I do date them on a regular basis.


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Athena'sMom said:


> Was it a prong collar or a choke collar? Choke collar are unsafe and most trainers do not use! I go to two different training facilities. When my dogs are puppies it is all positive reinforcement, as my dogs enter into the teenage faze I go to a trainer here in Indiana that has years of experience with German shepherds. At first glance his methods seems harsh because the prong looks scary and some dogs do not respond to prong right away. My trainer runs his obedience class like boot camp. He teaches you hands on how to use the prong properly. He is very firm but his dogs are amazing! They are balanced and beautiful specimens.
> I would not ever go to a facility that used choke chains. But don't be thrown by the use of + & - reinforcement. Athena is a wonderful balanced dog and handle most situations I throw at her. Good luck with training!


 I agree with this post, and I'd like to add we used the prong for heel, down and stay but not for sit, we also incorporated hand signals, treats and petting, use of positive rewards too. As Baillif pointed out it does not take long to train this way and basically stopped using the prong once my dog matured, about 2.5 yrs old.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

vulnox said:


> Anyway, thank you all again, this thread has helped me feel better about taking Archer out of that class but also given me some hope for finding something better going forward.


There are lots and lots of ways to train dogs. Whatever you and your dog are comfortable with, whatever tools you want to use, you can find a way to succeed with them. It just depends on your diligence in educating yourself, developing your skills, and practicing with your dog.

I realize that sounds like a platitude (and it is one) but it also happens to be true. If you don't want to use a choke, don't. If you don't want to use force at _all,_ don't. It is not necessary to achieve the goal of having a well-mannered companion (or a top-level sport competitor, if that's what you're into).


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> LOL! Ok ok....
> 
> I recall you posting that you adjust the training to the individual dog, so you're using the same tools but toning down the ummm .. Well the other word for the word you hate...
> 
> ...


Because it's easier and faster to use the prong and when done right the end result is the same. I have to train dogs on a limited time frame. I can't spend forever on each one. You can easily give pressure in any given direction and the dog is less likely to resist it. It ends up being gentler than what might otherwise have to happen.

I hate the word correction because correction doesn't differentiate between three quadrants of operant conditioning.

Plus sometimes gentle guidance gets called a correction and it's not. Many times the negative reinforcement is a cue. What most people call a correction is negative reinforcement.


----------



## vulnox (Oct 28, 2013)

It was mentioned that classes should be good because it should also give the dog a chance to be around other dogs and trainers. That was another concern of this class. There was a hard rule that dogs should never interact. So most of the dogs were losing their minds because they had twelve new friends in the room and they couldn't meet any of them. I get that we are there for training, but in the past training group I took him to they encouraged taking five minutes at the end of the class for the dogs to play and meet each other.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ok ... Thanks for the explanation. Appreciate it!

I'm not under a time constraint, our Aussie is totally a pet though my trainer thinks she'd be great at some formal OB, she's hubby's dog. 



Baillif said:


> Because it's easier and faster to use the prong and when done right the end result is the same. I have to train dogs on a limited time frame. I can't spend forever on each one. You can easily give pressure in any given direction and the dog is less likely to resist it. It ends up being gentler than what might otherwise have to happen.
> 
> I hate the word correction because correction doesn't differentiate between three quadrants of operant conditioning.
> 
> Plus sometimes gentle guidance gets called a correction and it's not. Many times the negative reinforcement is a cue. What most people call a correction is negative reinforcement.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

vulnox said:


> It was mentioned that classes should be good because it should also give the dog a chance to be around other dogs and trainers. That was another concern of this class. There was a hard rule that dogs should never interact. So most of the dogs were losing their minds because they had twelve new friends in the room and they couldn't meet any of them. I get that we are there for training, but in the past training group I took him to they encouraged taking five minutes at the end of the class for the dogs to play and meet each other.


Puppies interacting for a few minutes is fine, but these dogs are a little bigger now. Some of these people probably want to show their dogs probably in Obedience or Rally. Those people do not want their dogs to see another dog and go nutty wanting to get to them to interact. Sorry. 

What I said about other dogs and owners, is other dogs and owners working together in the same proximity that you are working with your dog. Your dog should learn that he can work around other dogs and people, and learn to ignore them. You do not want him barking and lunging and trying to get to or away from the other dogs. Regular intervals where you see other dogs but do not interact is excellent socialization. 

In training classes from here on out, you should probably expect the proper etiquette to be, not allowing the dogs to meet and greet.


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

If your dog is soft enough that just popping it's collar and not even choking it that it shuts down then you should be able to just yell at the dog to get it to listen. 

If you're yelling at the dog and it's still pulling you like a freight train then maybe it does need to understand that a correction is coming if it does not listen when told?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

boomer11 said:


> If your dog is soft enough that just popping it's collar and not even choking it that it shuts down then you should be able to just yell at the dog to get it to listen.
> 
> If you're yelling at the dog and it's still pulling you like a freight train then maybe it does need to understand that a correction is coming if it does not listen when told?


Yelling is not necessary and counter-productive at least with a soft dog. All you need to do is change your tone, to provide a negative marker.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Yelling is not necessary and counter-productive at least with a soft dog. All you need to do is change your tone, to provide a negative marker.


Yep saw that with my first male Boxer mix. "SIT" made him almost want to cry..."sit" worked much better..he was a great dog!


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A problem I see in many classes is that they are held in a circular formation with little room for the dogs to move around and release some frustration through movement. This movement also encourages interaction with the handler. Regimented command-response-reward/correction-repeat type training is frustrating for the dog. I much prefer a freeform play type atmosphere for the learning environment. 

If the OP was frustrated and worried about the training, that was going right down the leash to the dog. You have to believe in the training before it will work, and if you don't feel comfortable with the training, neither will your dog. It's good that you pulled out of the class as I think it was probably going to be negative for you, which would make it negative for the dog. If the pair of you is continually under stress in class, not much learning is going to happen anyways. 

Escape training works especially well when layered over known commands. It is important that the dog understands how to turn the pressure off. The best way, IMO, to teach the dog this is not in a new environment that is full of distractions, such as the first time you attend a new class. I won't apply escape training to a dog until I know the dog understands the commands and is engaged with the handler, unless we are teaching commands with an e-collar in a distraction free environment, but that is another thread.

I suggest you find a trainer that you are comfortable with that trains in a manner you are comfortable with. This will definitely take a lot of pressure off the dog.


----------



## Huck (Dec 31, 2013)

My husband and I started taking our GSD to basic obedience since he was 15 weeks old. He graduated last week  and he is now about 5 months old. And he is going to start advanced obedience training in a few weeks. Our first class (similar to yours, no dogs only orientation), made it clear that we had to use some kind of corrective collar. Prong, choke, martingale, etc. We chose to use the prong collar. He instructed us to only use the collar if your dog did not promptly listen to the commands. Our dog already knew sit and down. So when we gave the command to sit, he would sit, so therefore we would not give a correction. When we did use the collar to correct, it was more of a quick pull with the collar. And not "holding" the collar up to hold the dog off of the ground. We are very pleased with the results of our training classes. Huck wasn't too happy the first class. But he had never been corrected like that and he wanted to play with all of the other dogs, but not broken. I know a lot of training classes do not have other dogs in the class but he had learned his training with distractions. And other dogs are his weakness  But he, nor did the other dogs seemed broken down like you describe. It's the best thing we have done for him. But what you described I would say you did the right thing of removing him. I would keep doing some research with other trainers, corrective collars, etc and see what you are comfortable with. Good luck!!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

vulnox said:


> It was mentioned that classes should be good because it should also give the dog a chance to be around other dogs and trainers. That was another concern of this class. There was a hard rule that dogs should never interact. So most of the dogs were losing their minds because they had twelve new friends in the room and they couldn't meet any of them. I get that we are there for training, but in the past training group I took him to they encouraged taking five minutes at the end of the class for the dogs to play and meet each other.


This is actually normal and very smart. Once you get out of puppy classes, it's not wise to allow random meet and greets in class. I would be very uncomfortable going to a class where the dogs were allowed to interact with each other, because a.) I don't trust other owners to control their dogs and b.) my dog is reactive. When you are a trainer you have to put safety first, and it's way easier to make a blanket rule like this than to try to predict every possible outcome of any dog in the class interacting with any other dog. Plus, as a trainer you don't know if the person saying "oh he's friendly" actually knows what they are talking about. They could be reading the dog's body language completely wrong.

You were right to pull out of the class, I think. Getting a dog to sit is not hard, in fact it is dead easy, so the fact that your dog normally sits but was starting to lie down instead is a pretty clear indication that he was becoming shut down, frustrated, and not in the "thinking and learning zone" anymore. If you were happier with the other style of training, I see no reason to change at this point. As Merciel said, you can do just about anything with non-aversive training if you take the time to learn those skills.

I do use a prong collar on my soft dog and she does not shut down. She trusts me and works hard for me with a smile on her face. I do not think you are being over-protective. I would not be happy with the results you saw in that class either. It's probably true that if you push through it, you would see the dog's drive come back up, but I don't see the point if you can get the same results with less stress to the dog and less stress on you. Why make life more difficult than it has to be?


----------



## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Recently, I observed a class in which old school methods were used. After training with positive methods for years, it was downright difficult to watch. We don't inflict pain to train our dogs. We high-tailed it out of there. 

I am pretty open-minded about most collars, whatever works best for you and your dog, as long as they are used as tools, just to get the dog trained, not as a lifestyle.


----------

