# Female to Female aggression



## Espiritus (Mar 8, 2018)

I have two, two year old female GSD. This was not intentional. I had one, a very intense WL that fell in mutual love with my active duty Navy daughter who lives in Virginia (Norfolk) when she visited. Since my daughter's significant other was deploying, and my daughter is extremely active outdoors, I allowed her to take Kate home. 

Kate proved to be a stable, obedient home protector. She was fine with anyone as long as my daughter was home. If she wasn't, no one came in.

I, meanwhile, found an under appreciated GSD that came to live with me last year. Tia will be two this weekend. 

Kate came home last fall. A temporary situation because my daughter is separating from active duty and was selling her house. Kate moved back in like she had never left.

Tia is not a fighter, but Kate is. Kate is substantially larger and Tia wouldn't stand a chance. I moved Tia to a kennel run but there just has to be a better solution. I miss Tia.

Keeping them separated is stressful. I've thought about muzzling Kate, but thought I'd reach out to you guys to see what you suggest.

By the way, I'll have Kate until late July.

Any ideas would be appreciated.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Gates, crates, and rotate are your best options if you know there will be trouble. We did this for about two years, however we recently lost one of the males involved. It's not ideal, but it works with some consistency and making sure both get ample time out with the family.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I think rotating the crating and kenneling would be the best way to keep the peace until July. Give Tia her time to relax and enjoy freedom also. I would not allow them together, muzzled or not.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Have you tried introducing/socializing in neutral territory?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Crate and rotate. It's only temporary until Kate can go back with your daughter. Keep everyone safe and separated.


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

Crate and rotate is my advice as well. 
Don't take a chance of accidents to happen. It's only 4 months.
IF you have help, you can take them on walks together. On a leash of course and with you in control. But at the house, crate and rotate 100%.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

SlipperyRug said:


> Have you tried introducing/socializing in neutral territory?


Once females fight, it is not fixable. Don't try this because it will cause problems and vet bills or worse. The crate, rotate and separate quality time is the best advice. July is just round the corner.


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## Espiritus (Mar 8, 2018)

Thank you, all. I have been crating and separating. It's sad because Tia wants to play and Kate is all about the fight. Their intensity levels are so different.

I just want peace restored to my home.

July can't come fast enough.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Espiritus said:


> July can't come fast enough.


 I hope it will be July for you. I had to take care of my kid's college bunnies for "only two months'. After two years of trying to avoid them being killed by my dogs, having to move them inside on warm days etc., I rehomed them. :grin2:


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Females have memories like elephants!!!!! I had a mother daughter (sold, repurchased a year later) who were not the best of friends, but could run in a 50 acre field I rode a quad in to exercise...then heat cycles....then a MAJOR fight...some nasty injuries....crate and rotated for a year....then again a year later, mom - who had always lived with 2-3 other females fine!! - went out a window in my truck and went after daughter in heat...this time 2 dogs in surgery...lucky neither lost an eye, both had major bites on face. Mom was wrested out of my hands to live with close family type friends for her last years....never let another female with daughter again, but did raise her daughters with her and no problems....but not to adulthood. But other family dynamics had mothers, daughters, granddaughters, cousins living together fine....including daughters of the above pair.

Once there is a fight, animosity...they always remember!!! I crated and rotated the whole rest of the one female's life....interestingly, her daughters and granddaughters have been good with other females....living together and even one goes to visit her mother regularly.....4 generations of same female line - just that one who was female aggressive! 

Better to be safe and slightly inconvenienced than have a bad fight!!!!!!


Lee


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I'm curious how breeders handle multiple females then? When we went to pick up our puppy the breeders house was packed full of adult dogs, males and multiple females all inside it looked like sea of white shepherds and no one was fighting. I'd say it was around 30-40 dogs total. How does that work out...?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I don't think the white and show lines females are as STRONG and dominate as the working line females.....I have heard of showline females actually killing each other...breaking down doors...one lady thought she could leave one who was recuperating from a fight loose in a bedroom and the other (aggressor) loose in house....both dogs ended up euthanized...one due to repeated worse injuries, the other due to the temperament...this was cited on another forum years ago by the devastated owner.

I am EXTREMELY careful in how I manage females - and the individuals and the bloodlines I use - I rotate in heat and bred females, and watch young girls very very very carefully for signs of inappropriate dominance.

Lee


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My breeder, since I’ve known her, has had to separate bitches. She would rotate them between huge outdoor kennel runs, the backyard, house time, dog room. Those girls would’ve done serious damage to each other. These are ASL.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Shiloh shepherds are supposed to be a bigger, calmer, less aggressive version of the German shepherd. Some people call them 'couch potatoes." Yet I know of a Shiloh breeder who trusted a friend to look after her dogs while she was away. The friend didn't latch a gate properly, and two females got into a fight. The stronger one ripped open the belly of the weaker one, and it cost several thousand dollars to repair the damage to both dogs.

Having 30 or 40 dogs together in the same place (house??) is not any responsible person's idea of good dog management. To me it smacks of a hoarder or puppy mill.

I do know of a lab breeder that would let her dogs all run together in a big pack on her property, but it was ALWAYS under her direct supervision, and she carried a horse's lunge whip with her to discipline any of the dogs that were starting to get out of line. An experienced dog person can usually see a fight brewing, and can stop it before it escalates too far.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I'm curious how breeders handle multiple females then? When we went to pick up our puppy the breeders house was packed full of adult dogs, males and multiple females all inside it looked like sea of white shepherds and no one was fighting. I'd say it was around 30-40 dogs total. How does that work out...?


Maybe it has something to do with the boss female. Most packs have one and my belief is that it does no good long term to upset hierarchy. 
Sabi was just fine with submissive females, or with females she had 'raised'(ie the pups and injured dogs I fostered) The slightest indication of a squabble was shut down decisively by her. Peace reigned in my household.
However, I stayed with a friend who owned a younger, quite cocky, female and Sabi actually jumped through a window to get to her. We may still have avoided a fight except that the younger bitch refused to pay her respects, so to speak. Rightfully so, it was her yard. Sabi levelled her. It was a pretty short rebellion as Sabi was twice the other dogs size and essentially pinned her. The other adult bitch my friend owned was quite easy going and she and Sabs, while not friendly, managed to ignore each other and even walk together.
Basically my belief is that female canines are born into certain rolls, and it is only when we try and over manipulate these rolls that we have problems.
True "alpha bitches" are not aggressive, but they shut crap down quickly. I seldom see them bully or abuse their positions, but they certainly rule.
Since humans tend not to respect the dogs positions with each other we often show favor to an animal that over steps it's status. I think the other issue is that since domestic dogs (some breeds) have artificially large litters we are inadvertently duplicating rolls and creating a situation where we have more then one alpha female in a pack. Since good breeders seldom hold back more then one female in a litter it is plausible that conflict is largely avoided.
Also factor in that a good breeder who has raised an animal from birth knows said animal and will instinctively read it's body language better then the average owner.
Think young adult humans. Girls always follow a single leader and hold grudges like mad. Boys knock the crap out of each other and then have another beer. And generally follow the girls. Lol.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> I don't think the white and show lines females are as STRONG and dominate as the working line females.....I have heard of showline females actually killing each other...breaking down doors...one lady thought she could leave one who was recuperating from a fight loose in a bedroom and the other (aggressor) loose in house....both dogs ended up euthanized...one due to repeated worse injuries, the other due to the temperament...this was cited on another forum years ago by the devastated owner.
> 
> I am EXTREMELY careful in how I manage females - and the individuals and the bloodlines I use - I rotate in heat and bred females, and watch young girls very very very carefully for signs of inappropriate dominance.
> 
> Lee


You have heard of showlines killing each other ? But they aren't as strong and dominate as working? IM afraid to ask what working line do? I'm a little confused


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

every female is an individual......I have working lines.....Bengal and Lucca are mother and daughter and see each other a couple of times a month....on their first birthday, both Lucca and L'Sabre were in heat and all three girls shared a doggy birthday cake! 

Kira and Csabre could not be loose together in the house after a fight.....Csabre was great with pups and younger females up to 10 months of age....no problems....

When dogs decide they don't like each other - no matter the type or breed - you have a big management problem!


And yes, they were showlines that fought - I have even heard of ASLs fighting....


Lee


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes, ASLs fight too, and can seriously hurt each other.


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