# IPO has consumed my life!



## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I find myself at work thinking about left turns, sits in motion and good full grips! Hahah I think I have a problem!

I've spent the last 10 months or so training my dog Anna (or her training me) in this sport, and though we aren't as flashy as some other dogs I see, I am extremely happy with our progress and how we look!! Just wanted to share 

~ANNA~ - YouTube


This is a video of all of my hard work! Countless hours, hahah frustration, problem solving, accomplishment and all of the above


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I can't watch the video, but, this is a very addicting sport.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm still on my first dog, and the addiction hasn't waned. It is consuming....and if the dog has an issue where training is put on hold, watch out. 
Now I know why others have a couple of dogs to work, though I can't add to my pack for quite some time.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

It is a very addictive sport. 

It looks like you and your dog are enjoying yourselves, But, why would you ever call a dog out of a sit?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I can't watch the video. Why can't you call a dog out of a sit


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> I can't watch the video. Why can't you call a dog out of a sit


During an IPO routine when is a dog ever called from a sit? Never. So it is not something that you need. What problems can you create by calling the dog from a sit? Many. And in the sit you obviously don't have as much pressure on the dog as in a down (where you do call the dog) to maintain the position.
So why create problems in an exercise when there is no reason to create those problems? It doesn't make sense.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

In other unstable positions, like the stand, there is typically pressure in the training to make and maintain the position but the dog is (usually) not called from that position in training to release that pressure so the pressure is maintained.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Zahnburg said:


> In other unstable positions, like the stand, there is typically pressure in the training to make and maintain the position but the dog is (usually) not called from that position in training to release that pressure so the pressure is maintained.


I have questions but I won't flood this thread, i will ask in mine


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

....lol because I wanted her to come to me? I'd like my dog to have a recall from every position, even me standing behind her with her back to me so that she can't see me, she is my pet/companion first and foremost, she does not live in a box all day, nor did I even buy her for IPO, I do different things to keep her engaged and keep her thinking, it's my choice


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you did that(recall from the sit or stand) training with my TD, you'd get yelled at, lol....recalls aren't done from certain positions for a reason. Holding position is much more important than recalling to front when it comes to the positions. Recall is of course very important too. So is Platz, but that word is only used in trial 2x's during certain exercises....DQ'd in any other context.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I've been told to never call a dog from down (because it will learn to anticipate) and now never call a dog from sit??? People make no sense....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Recalls are done from a down or a stand, but in training I seldom recall the dog from either....though we tend to do restrained recalls often in training to encourage speed. The stand or send out, I never recall, but go to the dog and reward(usually give the reward behind the dog or go to heel position and mark the long positioning)


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

No, people that tell you such things make no sense. They just don't know any better. And if you trained with me and you called a dog after the sit in motion I would also yell at you.


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

Yes, if I called Finn from a sit in front of Art I would be yelled at, lol. If doing IPO, no call from sit. As for it being addicting, absolutely. Enjoy and happy training!


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

Anna,

Looking good. I see a marked improvement in not stringing together commands. You are doing great with your first dog. 

As far as recalling from the sit, I don't have a problem with it. Especially now, the judges want the dog to pay attention to the handler, and not be looking around when handler is away from the dog. I allow my dog to break the sit all the time when I reward him. One thing you will learn in this sport is that everyone has an opinion. Do what feels right for you and your dog. Go to different clubs and seminars so that you can add more tools to the toolbox. 

Good job!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Cheryl,

I don't believe that I have ever yelled at you when you trained with me. Of course, if you trained with me on a regular basis that would be subject to change!


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

LOL Art. I saw you twitching during the last seminar when Finn wouldn't out the sleeve for me. You so wanted to give him the proper correction. I will try not to do any yell worthy mistakes when I bring your crazy pup out for the seminar.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Uhhggggggg! I totally agree, it is life consuming... I make my dog do "blind searches" on everything he could possibly run around when we go on walks... and my "coffee" in the morning is doing some heeling/rear end awareness in the backyard. Every day at 2pm I go outside and do heelwork and dumbell stuff.

I think about IPO too much... LOL


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I assure you, any twitching was completely involuntary. 
I am very happy and impressed with the work that you have put into him. He is turning out super nice.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Renofan2 said:


> LOL Art. I saw you twitching during the last seminar when Finn wouldn't out the sleeve for me. You so wanted to give him the proper correction. I will try not to do any yell worthy mistakes when I bring your crazy pup out for the seminar.


Don't worry Cheryl. I'll have those yell worthy flub ups covered.

Just go after me. They'll be so shocked at what they just saw they won't notice any wrong you do.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

She looks great!!! You have done a very nice job with her!!! Impressive how far you have come!!!

As for the recall from sit controversy. I would not be doing it. If you do it too much and she anticipates it in a trial... However, I do believe in switching things up and keeping it new and exciting for the dog. I am not a "train to the test" person. So if you do it 1 out of 45 times, no big deal. 

When I am getting ready for a test of any kind, that's when I get particular. Should probably be particular all the time, but I'm not. I don't think dogs are stupid. I think they know the difference between the training field and the back yard. And their behavior is different. They do anticipate, I have seen plenty if dogs, IPO and SAR that anticipate commands. So if you pattern train too much... 

But if all you are doing is IPO, then I would probably NOT recall from a sit. Because it NEVER happens in IPO. What I do is the sit out if motion and keep walking make a turn keep walking and pick the dog up and keep going, sometimes at a walk, sometimes at a run. I just switch things up. 

But wow. You guys look great. She has nice hind end awareness, good focus!!


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

She looks great! She looks so focused and happy to work with you.  I love watching your videos with Anna and can really see the progress. Good job!!

As for the recall from sitting, well, I've never thought about it before. I'm new to the sport too and have a lot to learn. Like you, my dog is a pet first and foremost. I always planned on doing sport with him but never seriously thought about IPO. Then I started watching videos on it and reading about it, and I just knew that we had to give it a try. We started in July when Bear was 8 months old and have really been enjoying it! We did not do any IPO puppy foundation. We did a "pet" based puppy socialization class and then started training seriously in an AKC obedience club. We actually just got back from obedience class tonight where we do recall your dog from a sit. They do stress the importance of making sure to not call your dog from position more than twice in a training session so as not to lose the position. But today in class, twice, I called my dog from a sit.

I'll have to ask my IPO trainer what her thoughts are about that. I don't think we have ever called him from a sit during IPO training. We do restrained recalls. She knows we train at the AKC club and encourages it. My goal is to have fun with the dog; I'm not concerned with high scores at this point. But we're going to an IPO seminar this weekend so I'll have to ask about this there.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Wild Wolf said:


> Uhhggggggg! I totally agree, it is life consuming... I make my dog do "blind searches" on everything he could possibly run around when we go on walks... and my "coffee" in the morning is doing some heeling/rear end awareness in the backyard. Every day at 2pm I go outside and do heelwork and dumbell stuff.
> 
> I think about IPO too much... LOL



You and I would get along well!!! Hahahah I'm OCD about working my dogs, weather it be IPO obedience training, dock diving practice, tracking, what ever, I LOVE it! And I force myself to have time for it.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Thank you to everyone who has noticed the same progress I have, I'm really happy.

on that note-

So most of you are saying not to call her out of sit because she may break position in a trial? I'm not concerned with her breaking position at all really, my 4 year old Chinese crested doesn't break from a sit or a down and has about a 45 minute stay (very solid). I don't do it often, and I know to change things up. But at the same time I also think if your dog has a true understanding of the command and it is proofed and actually reliable then they won't break position. People get so caught up in the routine of the trail that I feel like they don't care about much else. I also remember reading at one point that a highly trained IPO dog can run the routine with out a handler on the field at all (not sure how true that is). But the pattern over and over and over? Hahaha I do this 100% for fun, and could care less if we ever win or we ever progress, I'm just enjoying learning with my dog.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Nice video...she looks great! IPO certainly does consume your life! It has mine too! I'm on my first dog! Currently 7.5 months old. There is lots to learn, but I love it! I've even started brining my lab to get her BH : ) When driving I always find myself looking at a field and my first thought, "That's a great tracking field!" It's a lifestyle change : ) I wouldn't have it any other way!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Liz, You and Anna are looking great! I love to see the progression! You are right, though, IPO will consume you. I have a hard time thinking about anything else myself. When ever my mind goes in to neutral, it wanders to IPO. All day I think about things I can do to polish my dogs performance. How to make little changes to make him better. What I am going to do on my next track. So on and so forth. I have a trial coming up in less than a month and I am constantly visualizing the perfect performance.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

d4lilbitz said:


> Nice video...she looks great! IPO certainly does consume your life! It has mine too! I'm on my first dog! Currently 7.5 months old. There is lots to learn, but I love it! I've even started brining my lab to get her BH : ) *When driving I always find myself looking at a field and my first thought, "That's a great tracking field!"* It's a lifestyle change : ) I wouldn't have it any other way!


Lol! I do this too. I will see a really nice field and think how I would love to track it! :wub:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very nice for first dog! I like your enthusiasm and dedication. The important thing with obedience is foundation....I expect my dogs to execute whatever command I have taught them, when in ask them. Though their are advantages to never calling your dog from sit if your dog is going to live in IPO bubble, there is nothing wrong with teaching and expecting your dog to execute a command from any position. Keep up good work, I like your approach to your dog!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by d4lilbitz
> *Nice video...she looks great*! IPO certainly does consume your life! It has mine too! I'm on my first dog! Currently 7.5 months old. There is lots to learn, but I love it! I've even started brining my lab to get her BH : ) When driving I always find myself looking at a field and my first thought, "That's a great tracking field!" It's a lifestyle change : ) I wouldn't have it any other way!





robk said:


> Lol! I do this too. I will see a really nice field and think how I would love to track it! :wub:


I agree! And I'm always looking at fields too, or industrial spaces, anyplace I can possibly track. Too bad most places are 'no tresspassing', it really limits where I can track.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree! And I'm always looking at fields too, or industrial spaces, anyplace I can possibly track. Too bad most places are 'no tresspassing', it really limits where I can track.


I live in Southern MD. Plenty of fields to track...like you mention though, many are off limits : ( Luckily right now we only do about 45- 50 paces so finding good fields is easy. By the time though we're more advanced it'll so much harder...everything is building up, taking away our tracking fields...so I'm always on the look out!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

She looks very nice, great job! It's a fun addiction!!

If you want to call her out of positions, go ahead and do it. I do that as well, since I the dogs I previously trained in IPO I also trained for other obedience (rally titles) where you do all sorts of transitions between positions or recalling. If the dog knows the position, they know the position and should not be getting up  If you only do IPO, then I can see why you wouldn't "risk" it, but I've never been worried about that and have never had a dog get up from a sit in 6 IPO/SDA trials. As long as the training makes sense and your dog is successful, do it how you want.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Liz&Anna said:


> So most of you are saying not to call her out of sit because she may break position in a trial? I'm not concerned with her breaking position at all really, my 4 year old Chinese crested doesn't break from a sit or a down and has about a 45 minute stay (very solid). I don't do it often, and I know to change things up. But at the same time I also think if your dog has a true understanding of the command and it is proofed and actually reliable then they won't break position. People get so caught up in the routine of the trail that I feel like they don't care about much else. I also remember reading at one point that a highly trained IPO dog can run the routine with out a handler on the field at all (not sure how true that is). But the pattern over and over and over? Hahaha I do this 100% for fun, and could care less if we ever win or we ever progress, I'm just enjoying learning with my dog.


  I tend to train outside the pattern too. If I do a recall from a sit (which is pretty rare) I do it outside the context of the sit-out-of-motion, though. I also pretty much always call my dogs from the down, but only rarely from the stand (mostly because my running stands are never as fast as I would like so don't want anticipation added). I hate working pattern all the time and want my dogs to think and listen, not just do. Training should be fun and not rote and boring (at least for me). Pattern training is rote and boring.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I can't wait for IPO to consume my life.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lhczth said:


> I tend to train outside the pattern too. If I do a recall from a sit (which is pretty rare) I do it outside the context of the sit-out-of-motion, though. I also pretty much always call my dogs from the down, but only rarely from the stand (mostly because my running stands are never as fast as I would like so don't want anticipation added). I hate working pattern all the time and want my dogs to think and listen, not just do. Training should be fun and not rote and boring (at least for me). Pattern training is rote and boring.


I don't pattern train either....my dog is one that needs a change up and not over do any one thing. Less is more with him. 
When we do the stand or platz from a run we may do a 1/2 circle and do it sideways on the field too. I'd rather keep my dog guessing/anticipating so his enthusiasm and engagement are there. Some dogs are fine pattern training, it all depends on the dog.
After we got back to training a couple weeks ago, Karlo would break from the down and recall before I commanded him. I decided to change that up so he wouldn't anticipate it, go back to him instead (after turning around a couple times on my way downfield).


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Legit, consumed my entire life, as far as even changing my line of work. 

Fwiw, I don't really pattern train either. And I just got the AKC CD with Carma last month, so I was doing multiple recalls from a sit. She got her IPO1 last weekend without an issue, so I don't think a pattern is the bottom line, but rather the training


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> *Legit, consumed my entire life, as far as even changing my line of work. *


Vet industry loss...IPO Gain.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> Legit, consumed my entire life, as far as even changing my line of work.
> 
> Fwiw, I don't really pattern train either. And I just got the AKC CD with Carma last month, so I was doing multiple recalls from a sit. She got her IPO1 last weekend without an issue, so I don't think a pattern is the bottom line, but rather the training



Your dog always blows my mind!! Is she your first IPO dog? What got you in to all this? Have you trained a dog prior to having her?


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I honestly feel like some people are really stuck up about the sport, I've met LOTS of people with working dogs and it seems cut throat at times, everyone is out to get everyone else!!! it makes me feel like most of them forgot why they even started or where they came from.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I am pretty sure that my boy has the pattern memorized. Last night I think he was even counting paces because he about turned on me when he got to 50 paces. I think I was only at like 47 paces. I must have miss counted.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I honestly feel like some people are really stuck up about the sport, I've met LOTS of people with working dogs and it seems cut throat at times, everyone is out to get everyone else!!! it makes me feel like most of them forgot why they even started or where they came from.


I think there are many more good people than 'stuck up' ones in the sport. Most often everyone is concentrating on their own program, it may appear they are self absorbed, but not out to get anyone else. 
Though, most all the people I've trained with are supportive of each other and very helpful. 
The pay to train that I go to regularly has so many different people in different stages of their journey, and everyone is always helpful, working on the field with each other, doing whatever we can to help each other. The helper/TD is very positive and never wants any drama.

My own club is supportive too. Surround yourself with those that are positive and don't worry about the negative, it'll just eat away at you. 
I trained for a couple yrs with a group that wasn't very supportive to some of the other members and it was difficult to go there regularly, just to feel like crap every time I drove home. It was very cliquey.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liz&Anna said:


> I honestly feel like some people are really stuck up about the sport, I've met LOTS of people with working dogs and it seems cut throat at times, everyone is out to get everyone else!!! it makes me feel like most of them forgot why they even started or where they came from.


I think there is a lot of ego more than snootiness and anywhere there is serious competition you'll have cut throat. At least you don't hear of competitors killing other competitors dogs like in the horse industry. 

BUT..BUT...I have been blown away by how the IPO community has come together for the Arpano family. It has been mind boggling to me to see people across continents stand up to help them.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are good and bad and nasty and competitive and super people in all areas of sport. The hardest part about SchH is the dog itself is also judged and not just the training (though with IPO that is not so much the case). This can make people seem more judgmental. Unlike most of the other dog sports that people commonly compete in, this is not for every dog and definitely not for every person and it shouldn't be.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The problem too is you get on the receiving end of one nasty person, and it taints the whole field for you.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Ignore the politics and negativity. Just train, compete, win if you can, and enjoy your dog!


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

Some people within the sport can be prickly. Most, in my experience, are good people. The longer you are in the sport, the more you realize that most people that start will never last. Most people I have met don't have the time, money, or interest in doing what it takes to title a dog in this sport. A lot of time people in the club are hesitant to dedicate a lot of emotional interest in somebody whom probably won't last. I am not saying this is the correct way for someone to act, but it is the reality. 

In my experience, the best way to combat this is to continue showing up and making sure that you are at the very least attempting to make progress with your dog. Once people realize you know a little bit and have made the effort, they will almost certainly open up and become much more open and helpful. If they don't, they are probably just a**holes


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

How much does it cost to title a dog? About?

For me it's really expensive because I can't find a club yet. Wondering how much on average it costs since you mentioned the money

Also, why else do people give up?


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

Unfortunately, I cannot put a number on the expense. I am lucky enough to be within a couple hours of multiple world competitors and helpers. My costs are mitigated by the fact that I do helperwork for them, so we usually just trade services. Before I became an experienced, decent helper, it was $500/yr for club dues, I would estimate $50/wk gas, $200/yr equipment, etc... Ultimately, for me it is about the cost of a monthly gym membership, but atleast where I am from, dog training usually consists of people doing six session of obedience training at Petsmart for $100. 

In my experience, people primarily give up for two reasons: 1.) *Time*. It takes a long time to get a dog trained to be ready to trial. We are in an instant gratification world and this sport is definitely not that. Club training can also take a large chunk of your day away, and some people are just not willing to give that up. 2.) Just a feeling of being in over your head. The first club I went to there was a handler getting ready for a world championship. At the time, I was trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to get my dog to walk to loose leash. So when I saw the world team member, I almost didn't go back because it was just so **** intimidating. Luckily, my stubbornness wore through and I kept coming back and it has become one of the most rewarding things in my life.

Hope that answers your questions.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

robk said:


> Ignore the politics and negativity. Just train, compete, win if you can, and enjoy your dog!


This. I don't judge others, I stay out of drama, I don't get involved in politics, I don't run my mouth - I just train my dog, help who I can, and learn along the way.

_"I am in competition with no one, I hope we all succeed." _


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The competitive aspect of the sport is what motivates me. I want to win. Yes Im one of "those" people.
I hope at some point they start offering prize money I think that would get more people out to the trials.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Wild Wolf said:


> This. I don't judge others, I stay out of drama, I don't get involved in politics, I don't run my mouth - I just train my dog, help who I can, and learn along the way.
> 
> _"I am in competition with no one, I hope we all succeed." _


 
This is great advice!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

wolfmanusf said:


> Unfortunately, I cannot put a number on the expense. I am lucky enough to be within a couple hours of multiple world competitors and helpers. My costs are mitigated by the fact that I do helperwork for them, so we usually just trade services. Before I became an experienced, decent helper, it was $500/yr for club dues, I would estimate $50/wk gas, $200/yr equipment, etc... Ultimately, for me it is about the cost of a monthly gym membership, but atleast where I am from, dog training usually consists of people doing six session of obedience training at Petsmart for $100.
> 
> In my experience, people primarily give up for two reasons: 1.) *Time*. It takes a long time to get a dog trained to be ready to trial. We are in an instant gratification world and this sport is definitely not that. Club training can also take a large chunk of your day away, and some people are just not willing to give that up. 2.) Just a feeling of being in over your head. The first club I went to there was a handler getting ready for a world championship. At the time, I was trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to get my dog to walk to loose leash. So when I saw the world team member, I almost didn't go back because it was just so **** intimidating. Luckily, my stubbornness wore through and I kept coming back and it has become one of the most rewarding things in my life.
> 
> Hope that answers your questions.


I replied on my thread. Thank you!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I hope at some point they start offering prize money I think that would get more people out to the trials.


 It would destroy the sport totally. Where winning and money become all important the dogs tend to be forgotten. It also changes people much of the time. If people think things are unfriendly and cutthroat now, add prize money to the picture.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are there any IPO "tournaments" or anything like that? I do a lot of flyball competing and most of our competitions are "no frills" meaning there are no awards for the competition (other than the titles you are earning through the league). You can win your division but you're not going to get a ribbon or even a small medal or certificate and there are no awards presentations or prizes. Other tournaments you can get awards and while you don't win money, sometimes there are nice prizes. It's never factored into which competitions we enter or how hard we train or try to win our divisions, most times I don't even know if we're in a true tournament or "no frills".

Schutzhund has so many barriers here already in such a vast country with some concentrated areas for clubs and not much in between, I don't know that prizes or prize money would ever factor in, at least not for me. If I could afford to be choosy about where I trained and what trials I entered, I wouldn't be needing an prize money!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

lalachka said:


> How much does it cost to title a dog? About?
> 
> For me it's really expensive because I can't find a club yet. Wondering how much on average it costs since you mentioned the money
> 
> Also, why else do people give up?



I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to give up!! I see dogs that are PERFECT, they never drop there heads during a heel, there left turns are AMAZING, bitework is incredible and I look at my obedience and my bitework, there are nights when I say "I'm never going to get this" I've had SO much trouble getting Anna to down at a wood article that it was really frustrating, it seems the minute you fix something....you notice something else, or someone tells you you have been doing it wrong the entire time and you have to start over. I can very clearly see why someone would give up, for me it was about pushing past every mistake, I've had a few people say negative things about my dog I've heard she has bad nerves, a bad grip, no focus on me- and more from there, I've kept my head up and learned to ignore because honestly I know she is none of those things. I look at my dog and I feel like the world is ours!! She is my titled dock diving partner, sheep herder, protection trained GSD and only at a year of age! So there will be times when you want to quit, but the time that comes after those thoughts of failure are what will matter most!!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Liz&Anna said:


> I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to give up!! I see dogs that are PERFECT, they never drop there heads during a heel, there left turns are AMAZING, bitework is incredible and I look at my obedience and my bitework, there are nights when I say "I'm never going to get this" I've had SO much trouble getting Anna to down at a wood article that it was really frustrating, it seems the minute you fix something....you notice something else, or someone tells you you have been doing it wrong the entire time and you have to start over. I can very clearly see why someone would give up, for me it was about pushing past every mistake, I've had a few people say negative things about my dog I've heard she has bad nerves, a bad grip, no focus on me- and more from there, I've kept my head up and learned to ignore because honestly I know she is none of those things. I look at my dog and I feel like the world is ours!! She is my titled dock diving partner, sheep herder, protection trained GSD and only at a year of age! So there will be times when you want to quit, but the time that comes after those thoughts of failure are what will matter most!!


Carma isn't my first IPO dog. Before Carma, I was working Aiden. He has a mess of a pedigree and wasn't bred for sport, and then had some pretty bad foundation work, which in combo with his nerves and lack of drive, made him insalely difficult to train. You should check out my previous topics on training with him. Getting through it with a dog like that is why Carma makes it so easy for me.


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