# Toilet training gone wrong



## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Hi folks

Having a bit of problems with toilet training Winter who is 10 weeks old. Here's the problem:

I bought a huge crate for her, not realising at the time she was supposed to be confined to only a small part of it. I realised this the day before I got her and ordered a divider. Unfortunately this came after we'd had her for a week and a half, by which time she'd got into a routine of using one end of the crate to toilet in and the other end to sleep in.

The divider arrived. I put it into place and got up every 2 hours in the night. She doesn't have a blanket in there as she soiled it. She is now quite happy to toilet in the crate and sleep in it/roll around in it. When I let her out, I cannot take her outside during the night as the light is poor and I can't see if she does anything. She does her business on the puppy pad, and within 10 minutes of me putting her back in the crate she has soiled it, even if she's not eaten or drank. 

During the daytime she is not interested in doing her business outside and waits until we are inside when she can use the puppy pads. All of this has got her horribly confused and I know it's all my fault. She's stopped using puppy pads during the day now too and just goes wherever she feels like it, which is literally every 20 minutes at most. She's confused as to if she can come out at night or not, so she just cries in her crate all the time now.

Not having such a great experience of my puppy at the moment, there are other issues I will post in a different thread.

Thanks for reading, I will take any criticism anyone wishes to throw at me as I know where I have gone wrong, as long as it is constructive, civil and doesn't undermine my decision to get a dog!

Thank you x

All of this has


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Is it possible for you to take a soiled potty pad outside to where you want her to go potty and see if she will start going outside. And if she does you need to really get excited with her and tell her good girl. I don't know if it will work or not but it could not hurt to give it a try. I also would take the pads out of her crate.


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Oops I don't know what that bit is there on the end of my post lol.

Thanks for your input. I can take a soiled pad outside but it would be useless in the dark as I can't see what she is doing clearly. She always gets a huge fuss when she toilets in the right place. I will try this tomorrow though. There doesn't seem to be any set time she will go toilet. She can go once, then 10 minutes later, then an hour later, then 5 minutes later. I have no idea when she will need to go. I'm trying to keep a diary of when she goes etc, but it seems so random.

Also, I did take the pads out of her crate and it makes no difference. I can put her in the crate at 10pm (her normal bedtime) and come back to her at midnight. By which time the crate is completely covered in faeces and so is she. She somehow manages to get it all over the floor around the crate and all over the bars and roof. So almost every time I have to clean and disinfect the entire crate and kitchen floor.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

When I was house training Woolf, I kept a flashlight by the door because like you are dealing with the lighting was bad. (This helped DH change out the fixture  )

It may take a few nights of hardly any sleep.... try setting an alarm every hour to take the pup out. On leash, no play, do his business, praise and off to bed. During the day, leash the pup to you and again, every hour or every time you see him looking to go, scoop him up and head outside.

A bad habit has developed and it will take time and energy to change it.... but it can be done.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Flashlight, bag and treats all sit very close to my back door for those after dark potty runs!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Also it sounds like she's in another room at night?

Kaos's crate is right next to my bed - board on top so it makes a great nightstand - so I can hear her when she starts stirring.

Though :rofl: I've gotten pretty tired from sleeping in segments that I'm now setting an alarm to make sure I get her out every few hours.

Also what are you cleaning the crate with? You want to make sure to use a cleaner with enzymes like Nature's Miracle


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Alright, thank you. 

So even if she keeps soiling the section of the crate she's in I should just persist and she if she gets the hang of it? Should I restrict water? I've been doing that today but it's made no difference so far, she just drank the entire bowl when I gave it to her. I've read somewhere to only feed her in the crate to reduce the chances of her soiling it. Should I try this too? x


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

JoMichelle said:


> She is now quite happy to toilet in the crate and sleep in it/roll around in it.


I have had a puppy that came from the breeder like this. Be resigned to the fact that your puppy is going to be unusually difficult to potty train and you will need to be more conscientious than most, for longer than most. That said, it CAN be done.



JoMichelle said:


> When I let her out, I cannot take her outside during the night as the light is poor and I can't see if she does anything. She does her business on the puppy pad, and within 10 minutes of me putting her back in the crate she has soiled it, even if she's not eaten or drank.


Get a flashlight, take it with you. Do not let puppy back indoors until she has pottied. *Make sure that you are going often enough that she doesn't make another mistake in her crate.* This is super important - you need her to be used to a spotless crate so she re-learns that she should not potty in it and every error puts you back to square one. 

I would bring her puppy pad outside as well until she starts to potty pretty quickly when you go outside. When you are where you want her to go, say some command like 'Go Potty' - eventually she will understand to go whenever you say that wherever you are. Once she goes, praise and treat.



JoMichelle said:


> During the daytime she is not interested in doing her business outside and waits until we are inside when she can use the puppy pads. All of this has got her horribly confused and I know it's all my fault. She's stopped using puppy pads during the day now too and just goes wherever she feels like it, which is literally every 20 minutes at most.


It sounds as though you are available to take her out during the day - in that case, remove the puppy pads from inside so she doesn't think that's where she should go. Going about every 20min is not unusual for such a young pup, especially since she is not learning to hold it (what the crate helps to teach). I'd keep that schedule with her during the day. Normally, I'd suggest putting her back in her crate for 15min if she doesn't go then take her out again, but that won't work for you. Instead, you're going to need to stay outside until she is successful. Don't play with her - make it as boring as possible. She'll figure out that when you go outside, she needs to go for the fun to start again. When you notice that you're having to wait around most of the time you take her out (or that she's peeing only a couple of drops rather than a full pee), then try going out every 30min., then 40min., etc.


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Yes, she is in the kitchen. The reason for this is when I put her to bed at night I don't go to bed myself. I'm studying at university and I have to use this time to get some work done. Do you think it would help a lot? Wouldn't she just keep crying to come out if she's near me? I get up a lot in the night too as I don't sleep well. I'd be constantly disturbing her.

Also I crate her whilst I have to do things where she can't be with me, such as taking a bath etc. I'm not sure she would settle in the crate if I'm always moving around and disturbing her.

I'm using a regular household disinfectant. I'll go to the pet shop tomorrow and get the one you suggested, thanks x




Barb E said:


> Also it sounds like she's in another room at night?
> 
> Kaos's crate is right next to my bed - board on top so it makes a great nightstand - so I can hear her when she starts stirring.
> 
> ...


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Thank you Stealthq. I will give that a go. 

I am at home with her most days, but - 2 days a week I am out the entire day. I have a dog walker to come see to her during the day but it means there are two parts of the day where she is in the crate for 4 hours. What should I do during this time? I do also have to put her in the crate for 2 hours at a time twice a day whilst I do the school run. It's a 3 mile round trip so she can't come with me, even when she can safely go outside after her next injection it will be too far for her.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

I agree with the other posters. This is a bad habit, but it can be undone. I had the same problem with my girl when I first got her and it took a solid couple weeks of very consistent potty methods to get things right. She was nearly 9 weeks when we got her....and it felt like she was weeing in the house every 20 minutes. She's 14 weeks now and is good as gold.

Forget the puppy pads or newspaper. In my experience they just prolong the whole experience and you are better off just getting the pup to go outside from the get go.

Going out hourly is a pain, but it's just what you gotta do. (The first few days with Juno I had to go out half hourly!) When she does an accident in the house, make sure you very thoroughly clean any spots she's had an accident inside so she can't smell those. Take the kitchen paper you used to clean up her wee and put it outside in the place you want her to go so she can smell it. She'll get the idea soon enough.

And don't restrict water during the day except at night, when it might help to take away water about an hour before bedtime. 

Hang in there! It gets better, I promise!


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Ok, like someone said, this will be hard, but can be done.

First, no more puppy pads. These are almost the worst invention for puppies ever! LOL. If you teach her its ok to go inside (pad or not) she will go inside. 

Step 1: Take everything out of the crate except the divider and the puppy. You will restrict water intake to waking hours only, and when you are with her. (so no water in the crate). Also, feeding needs to be scheduled (no free-feeding) so you can diarize how long after she eats she needs to potty. Feeding in the crate does help her establish an eating area, making it less likely she will use it as a washroom.

As to putting her in your room, I would. I always do this with young puppies so I can hear them move. If they move, at all, I get up and let them out. As long as they are sleeping they are not going to the bathroom...LOL

Step 2: Flashlight by the door and make plans for night time WALKS. Even if it is just in circles around the yard. Puppies often need to move to get the urge to go, so bring her to the same place each time you go out. Pick a spot and walk to it(one that you will always use as a potty place), if she does not go, walk her around the yard (let her sniff) and then back to the spot. It may take a few times, but eventually, you will bring her to that spot and she will go right away.

Step 3: Every hour, on the hour this puppy needs to go out for a WALK. Just until she goes, which can be 5 mins or so, but she needs to at LEAST pee. Once she starts going outside for a few days you will know which times she will need to pee and which time she will need to do both. If you do this (making sure she has no accidents) for 2-5 days religiously, you will be able to start cutting back to every two hours, then every 3, 4 etc...

Biggest tools, crate when you can't supervise and be holding the leash or have it tied to you when she is out. This will also help you identify her signals that she has to go!

Hope this helps and good luck!


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Okay thank you all so much! I feel much better now that I have a plan of action in place. 

She is in bed now so I'll put the crate in my bedroom tomorrow night. I'm worried about her soiling and stinking my bedroom out though, amongst the other things I mentioned. Guess I'll just have to cope with it.

Every time she whines do I take her out? When should I ignore her? It will be impossible for me to take her out every time she whines because it is constantly, unless she is ignored for a while


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

What should I do about when I'm having to go out though? I'm sure she can't hold it for that long and if she messes in her crate because there's no other choice it will set her back again.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I am curious to know, and read thru this thread but didn't see it mentioned -- are you free feeding her rather than scheduled feedings? It sure makes it very hard to know when they may eliminate if they have constant access to food. Well, actually, impossible to know.  If you ARE on scheduled feedings, are they consistent times?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

JoMichelle said:


> What should I do about when I'm having to go out though? I'm sure she can't hold it for that long and if she messes in her crate because there's no other choice it will set her back again.


Do you have a room mate or family that could step in while you are out? You could let them know you owe them big time if they step in and help. You are right, it will set her back on breaking this habit.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I had the same problem with mine when I got her, she was already 3 months and very confused She is almost 5 months and accidents happen but nothing like before and if they do its human error She's very young, but first thing, make sure she is free of worms--mine had worms and there was no method to her madness with the poop scheduled. After she was treated that part of it got much easier. They say that pups can hold their pee one hour for every month they are, not sure I believe that 100% but its close. I would start by taking her out every hour for the first couple days, then move to two hours and stay there for a while. Biscuits and praise are very key. After a few times of this the pup will go to the bathroom, then come sit in front of you and wait for their treat Be prepared to take the pup out several times at night--a flash light works great. I have a two year old Golden Retriever that was trained and completely out of his crate by 12 weeks, it was amazing how hard the first 2 weeks were, but it gets easier and easier. Then you can smile to yourself and say you did it. Some dogs take longer...as I'm finding with my shepherd, but they are worth it Good Luck!!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

And don't be fooled by that 3 mile roundtrip to the school with the dog, because mine at 3 months can go for miles and she just doesn't get tired. They have great endurance and would probably surprise you!!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i got my pup when he was 9 weeks old.
he was in a crate that could house an adult
Great Dane with no divider. my pup was out
every 15 minutes, 15 minutes became 25 minutes,
25 minutes became 40 minutes and so on. over night
he was out every 2 hours.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> i got my pup when he was 9 weeks old.
> he was in a crate that could house an adult
> Great Dane with no divider. my pup was out
> every 15 minutes, 15 minutes became 25 minutes,
> ...


I have a massive crate with no divider too and I haven't had a problem with her weeing in it unless I was for some reason delayed in letting her out. Timing is everything at this age.



JoMichelle said:


> What should I do about when I'm having to go out though? I'm sure she can't hold it for that long and if she messes in her crate because there's no other choice it will set her back again.


I know this isn't always a possiblity, but is there anyway you could bring her with you in the car if you know you are gonna be awhile? I have an MPV style car and when I know I'm gonna be more than a couple hours, I bring Juno with me. She sits in the boot while I'm gone (which is not enclosed) with her favourite chew toys and I'll come back out and let her out for a wee when necessary. Many a wee has taken place in the small grassy garden patches in car parks at Tescos and various other places. 

I know this all seems like a palaver now, but it does get easier the older she gets and the disruption will minimize over time. x


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

Poor puppy and poor owner. Don't worry, it will get better. 

You pretty much have to start over. She's still young, so it should be pretty easy.

The most important thing, IMO, is a schedule. Schedules with puppies are very important. Feed your puppy at the same time, every day. 3 x's. Morning, noon, and night. Split her daily feedings up into 3 smaller portions.
Lay the food down and give her a certain amount of time to eat it in.....if she doesn't, pick it up and try to give it to her again at her next scheduled feeding time. They usually have to potty 10-15 minutes after eating. Put her on a leash.......stand outside with her until she potties. It may take her awhile.
Sometimes my male will smell around for a few minutes before going. Just be patience...she will eventually go. When she does, give her a big party. Praise her and love on her.

When mine were pups, I would feed the last meal around 6. Then do the potty thing. Put the crate beside your bed. I would set the alarm every 2 hrs and take pup outside. Her bladder is still tiny, so she has to pee a lot. Eventually, she will hold it longer and longer. When you are taking her outside at night, use a flashlight and a leash. Just stand around and don't say anything to her...until she goes. Then give her praise.

You can look at it this way....now is a great time to teach her to only potty in a certain part of the yard. Put some of those used pee pads down out in the yard where you want her to go. Once she starts peeing there...you can remove the pads and maybe put some nice mulch down there. It will be nice when she gets older having her only use the bathroom in a certain spot.....instead of all over the yard.

Good luck.


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks for your replies,

She is on a strict food schedule and has been since I got her. 8am, 1pm, 6pm. I don't drive so I don't have the option of her coming with me. I tried today to take her on the school run but it was a disaster lol. It was too noisy for her, too soon. She encountered the same huge bouncy lab that scared her a few days ago. She was so scared by everything going on she was shaked. I had to carry her  It also started to hail! It couldn't have been worse lol. She's now exhausted.

Regarding toilet training. I waited outside with her for an hour and 40 minutes this morning before she pee'd. She got lots of fuss. Then she had her lunch and 20 minutes later we went out and played for an hour. She didn't do anything. Came back in for 10 minutes, I turned around to get her lead and she pee'd on the floor  I turned around to get tissue to clean it up and she pooped! So today she's had 2 accidents inside and toileted outside twice.

It's still hailing and I'm sure she won't do anything outside when she wakes up.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

JoMichelle said:


> Thanks for your replies,
> 
> She is on a strict food schedule and has been since I got her. 8am, 1pm, 6pm. I don't drive so I don't have the option of her coming with me. I tried today to take her on the school run but it was a disaster lol. It was too noisy for her, too soon. She encountered the same huge bouncy lab that scared her a few days ago. She was so scared by everything going on she was shaked. I had to carry her  It also started to hail! It couldn't have been worse lol. She's now exhausted.
> 
> ...


Oh no! I'm so sorry today was a bit disastrous for you both. Having a puppy is exhausting work - like having another baby in the house! That first week in particular, I honestly thought I was gonna crack up with my girl. I thought "something must be wrong with my puppy".. and "why isn't she 'getting' any of this potty training business"...and "dear God, the kids have just stepped in her poo accident and tracked it all over the house. NOOOOOOOOOOO!". I wished that Pampers did dog nappies. LOL Then suddenly something just clicked. 

Big hugs! It will click with your girl too. Hang in there!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JoMichelle said:


> Thanks for your replies,
> 
> She is on a strict food schedule and has been since I got her. 8am, 1pm, 6pm. I don't drive so I don't have the option of her coming with me. I tried today to take her on the school run but it was a disaster lol. It was too noisy for her, too soon. She encountered the same huge bouncy lab that scared her a few days ago. She was so scared by everything going on she was shaked. I had to carry her  It also started to hail! It couldn't have been worse lol. She's now exhausted.
> 
> ...


She peed outside twice...that is a start I did find the rest of the post amusing because I've been in the same situation and I laugh about it now


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

It is indeed exhausting! And looking back that post is quite amusing lol. Well yesterday didn't turn out great but we did have fun together (well I enjoyed being with her all day, I don't know what she thinks lol). I've found that the more time I spend with her (which is almost all of it anyway), the better things are. The toilet training is still all over the place. These dark nights make it so hard even with a torch. Outside is just way too interesting to think about going toilet lol. 

Either way, I give up stressing and have accepted that my life, for now, involves a lot of cleaning up pee and poop. I'm just going to stick to what I'm doing now. I know it's the right thing to do as you have all advised me, and hopefully one day it will indeed just click.

Thank you all so much for your advice. This forum is such a huge help, and it makes things so much easier just knowing and hearing everyone else goes through much of the same thing and it all gets better. xxx


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Where had my sweet little bundle of fluff gone  Now I got a land shark with something to prove and who thinks her toilet is wherever she happens to be at the time!

She still refuses to go toilet outside. And at completely random times. She can hold it for 3 hours without a problem, the second she gets in her crate she releases. 

The only progress we HAVE made is at night time, and that's only because she sleeps all night. I get up every 2 hours religiously, I've tried taking her outside but she refuses, inside on a puppy pad in the same place every night does work though. The only problem there is in the mornings. Say I get up for her at 6am and go back to bed for 1 hour. Usually she would hold it fine for that long, but as soon as the sun comes up she starts crying and going crazy in her crate. By the time I let her out about an hour later she has defecated and it is everywhere. I've been thinking she just wants to get out of the crate at that time and probably doesn't need the toilet. I've been ignoring her because I've been told to ignore when puppies cry or they won't learn to accept the crate. But perhaps she's crying because she knows she needs to toilet??

I don't know, but the only thing I was adamant I didn't want to do was to put her crate in my bedroom. It's going to be really awkward but I think I will try this for a few nights and see how it goes x


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm learning her whines and I've realised she whines in her crate AFTER she's toileted in it and is trying to squish into one side to avoid it. She only jumps and rolls in it when she can hear people around the house. I'm assuming then that she is learning, and that she doesn't enjoy sitting in her own mess but does it out of excitement when she thinks someone is coming to her?

We had a completely accident free night last night. I took her to toilet every 2 hours as usual, and I made sure I was up this morning before she was, as that is the worst time. If she's awake in her crate in the mornings for any amount of time she will poop. 

She's had accidents in the house today, as always. But I feel like there's a little bit of progress? We went on a 2 mile walk this morning so I'm hoping she won't be in crazy puppy mode all day too.

x


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Just a quick update on this situation - Winter is now 4 months old. I completely get now why people say puppy pads are a bad idea. The minute we got rid of those and started over again things improved ten fold. I've been trying to teach Winter to "speak" when she wants to go outside to toilet. Today I was lazing on the sofa and she came over to me and barked and led me to the backdoor. She had needed the toilet. I was so happy I almost cried. It's been 2-3 weeks since we completely started from scratch with toilet training, I can't believe how fast these dogs learn!


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

YAY! Well done for persevering! That's so great you've taught her to speak to use the loo. Excellent work!


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks Rua, and it's all thanks to you wonderful people on this forum. We haven't had a single accident in over 2 weeks, I don't need to get up during the night anymore and she does not mess in her crate at all anymore, even on the days I am out and the dog walker visits


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## Jeven's Tyde (Feb 1, 2012)

That's awesome! Congrats!! I bet it's a huge weight lifted off your shoulders!

So... how are you training the Bark to use the Loo?

Tyde will occasionally whine and look at me, and sometimes he will sit and stare at me and not come to me when I call (when I approach him he trotts further off, then eventually leading me to the door to which I praise him for letting me know), but we're still having messes on occasion. 

Last night, I heard him whine, walked into the room he was at, and he had already gone. He didn't want to, but I guess he couldn't help it... (he wasn't near the potty door, was at the other side of the house), cause he tinkled, walked - trailing tinkle, tinkled some more, walked - trailing tinkle. He was near my daughter's room, so he was probably trying to get her to let him out.

I'd love train a bigger signal. I don't think little jingle bells will work... I really don't want a bark either... I'm thinking about getting a "dinner bell" with a pull string... Lol.


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## 1337f0x (Feb 21, 2012)

Great updates. I'm happy Winter has learned! To be honest though, I use puppy pads at night, and Simba has learned only to use it at night, during the day he will bark and go to the door, but I guess it's different with some pups.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

What a great update on Winter!! It's such a relief when they finally just "get it"! :happyboogie:



1337f0x said:


> Great updates. I'm happy Winter has learned! To be honest though, I use puppy pads at night, and Simba has learned only to use it at night, during the day he will bark and go to the door, but I guess it's different with some pups.


If he doesn't need them during the day, why not just skip them altogether at night? Just set your alarm to wake up every so often (2-3 hours at first), take him out of the crate and off to potty. Then back in the crate and repeat.  My theory with potty training is to never teach them its okay to potty inside, and then you never have to worry about any kind of confusion later.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I soooo don't recommend potty pads, as it really can make it harder to train etc. That being said, there are situations where they are needed/very wanted. Whichever method you're going to use, I think it's probably helpful to put pottying on cue, then you can get them out to empty their bladder/bowels when you need to and have less to worry about.


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## JoMichelle (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks guys  I'm glad I stuck with it and didn't give up.



Jeven's Tyde said:


> That's awesome! Congrats!! I bet it's a huge weight lifted off your shoulders!
> 
> So... how are you training the Bark to use the Loo?
> 
> ...


I taught Winter to bark on command first off by finding a trigger that would make her bark. Funnily enough this turned out to be her water bowl?? I did this using the clicker. If you need me to explain exactly how let me know and I'll be more than happy to.

Basically once she knew "speak" on command, which took a few days - I would wait for the signs she needed to go to the toilet (she would hover around the back door and do a quiet whine). I would give her the command to "speak", when she did it, she got lots of praise, a treat AND the door opened. After a few days of this, I stopped the treat and most of the fuss, so she realised all she had to do to go outside was bark. And that was it


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## shaner (Oct 17, 2010)

You've been given tons of good advice, so I won't bother repeating it all, but I will say this is one of the reasons that I think pee pads are a terrible idea. I don't want my puppy to ever get the impression that it's okay to go in the house. Sometimes puppies think that if they can in the house on a pee pad, then can go on carpet, on blankets, on beds, on newspaper, etc. They don't always distinguish the difference. 

I would strive to take that puppy outside rather than continuing to use a pee pad.


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