# SchH 3 question?



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i always though a dog with a SchH 3 title was something
that seperated the puppy's from the dogs. however someone told me almost any well bred GSD can achieve a SchH 3.
in order to go far in competition you need a working line dog.

what are your thoughts on this? thanks.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:however someone told me almost any well bred GSD can achieve a SchH 3.


Border collies, labradors, and chessies have obtained SchH III's. There's also the famous Jack Russell that was able to do much of the SchH III routine and put up a better show doing it than many GSDs.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=954439&Main=74563

Do you want to find a real GSD or a dog that can just handle the training to SchH III or a competition dog where your main focus is the sport itself? Unfortunately, they may not all be the same.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadi always though a dog with a SchH 3 title was something
> that seperated the puppy's from the dogs. however someone told me almost any well bred GSD can achieve a SchH 3.
> in order to go far in competition you need a working line dog.
> 
> what are your thoughts on this? thanks.


Well, for me it boils down to two things: 1) just like any other sport (human or dog), there is a broad spectrum of what passes and what is absolutely stellar. For example, I could say "I was a great gymnast, I won first place ribbons and got the highest score", but the truth is that statement is out of context. I was no Olympian and I've seen some 10 year olds who could have kicked my butt. SchH has points so there are going to be SchH3 dogs that earn the title with the lowest possible points and then dogs that earn the title with perfect or near-perfect points. 2) The dog's are being judged by people and as such, there are going to be differences in how judges score and dare I say some dogs that are done favors (even titles simply being bought). To me, a SchH3 title on it's own tells me the dog is trainable, has at least moderate drive, has a pretty solid temperament, and has some natural instinct for things like tracking, defense drive, etc. So at least for me it tells me some things about the dog in a general sense, but I would never just look at a breeding of any two SchH3 dogs and assume the resulting puppies are top potential.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There are many, many, many, GSDs out there that claim to be well-bred, with great pedigrees, who would not have the temperament to do Schutzhund. Lack of drives, lack of focus, lack of nerves. 

(Just look at the recent Sieger videos - supposedly well-bred dogs, supposedly SchHIII dogs, but few really have the correct drives and temperament to have earned the titles honestly).

I've seen a dog out of SchHIII parents from a well-known breeder here in Canada who only worked for 10 minutes a day - than that was it. Shut down. Come back tomorrow, we're done here. 

It still comes down to the individual dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> (Just look at the recent Sieger videos - supposedly well-bred dogs, supposedly SchHIII dogs, but few really have the correct drives and temperament to have earned the titles honestly).
> 
> I've seen a dog out of SchHIII parents from a well-known breeder here in Canada who only worked for 10 minutes a day - than that was it. Shut down. Come back tomorrow, we're done here.


Not to get off topic but I think some of what I've seen as far as your first paragraph fits in with your second - not that I'm any expert but at the show I saw I got the impression that a decent number of dogs could have been a lot better if their owners and handlers put even half as much effort into their SchH training than their ring training. It kind of pissed me off, really, seemed like they were wasting some good dogs with so much focus on showing and breeding and less on work and training. Maybe I'm totally wrong. Of course very few of them had drives comparable to great working line dogs but I think many do have enough drive to legitimately pass a SchH3 (not with top scores) but sadly that's not where the focus is. Also I think the test is kind of lame. It's only done at the big shows, they get multiple tries for each exercise...I guess if it's not even a hard test why would people spend a lot of time training? <- I don't agree with that statement but I can see where some people would use that as an excuse. In another thread somewhere someone proposed the test be replaced with an actual trial. Considering the dog cannot enter the show ring without passing this part, that would be interesting!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That is a very good point Liesje, but I was talking about the dog, LOL. Dog would work for 10 minutes a day, and you coudn't get anything more out of him, try as you might. He just shut down and tuned out. 

Though this dog did like to track, so we'll give him that! 

But other dogs from the same breeder that I was talking about (German Showlines) have competed at the Canadian National Schutzhund Championships, and have done very well. 

So to answer Steve's question, the answer is yes and no. Breeding has a LOT to do with it, but not every well-bred dog will have what it takes to get a SchHIII. If that was the case, there wouldn't even be a need to have SchH as a test of Breedworthiness, you could just go by pedigree. But it doesn't work that way. Some dogs born to titled parents will be the epitome of what a GSD should be, and others will be nice pets that enjoy a game of fetch once in a while. Some will have no issues getting a SchHIII, others may not even have the ability to pass a BH due to temperament or other issues. Good breeders will strive to get uniform litters where all the pups have the same working potential, but there is no guarantee. 
Some of the pups may be more suited for pet homes and couch-warming duties. 

Now granted, you could put in inordinate amount of time and train a dog to SchH III, even if it really wasn't suited for the type of work, but the whole idea of training the dog is to uncover his/her strenghts and weaknesses, and thus be able to make better breeding decisions.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK, sorry I didn't read it carefully enough! I totally agree, many are almost embarrassing to watch. Many are prancing around with their tongues lolling, like a Golden Retriever but without the nice obedience heel, lol.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I think this is going to be the next issue with teaching people how to choose a breeder. It used to be "My dog has AKC papers" and is now turning into "My dog's parents had xyz titles". More and more people are becoming aware of byb's, health testing and titling but now they need to learn there's more to a dog than its titles. A title proves nothing to me. One visit to nationals more than proves this to even someone who has never seen schutzhund before. Were all the dogs trained? Yes, absolutely, they did the routines. Were all the dogs impressive? Far from it, only a few caught my eye and those few certainly would have stood out to someone who was attending their first ever schh event.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Sorry, I could have been a bit more clear. Titles of course tell you _something_ but they don't tell me anything about a dog being worthy of having its genetics passed on.


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## Mark B (Feb 3, 2009)

Not any well bred GSD can do it. The dog needs to have certain traits. Good temp. good nerves, drives etc. And depending on the judge. I have seen some dogs pass that should have. Over all you should have a well balanced dog. The thing most people look for is a genetic full hard grip, prey drive, food/toy drive. 

Mark
http://www.ultimatekanine.com


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## Mark B (Feb 3, 2009)

Ooooppppssss i meant to say Shouldn'T have passed instead of should have.


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## Karo (Feb 7, 2009)

Dogs always useful to have a greater potential for SchH training. But there are also dogs with the exhibition, which SchH like and have the potential to do SchH 3.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

our decoy that we train with has ran off SchH 3 dogs in a PSA trial (he is certified in PSA, SchH, and french ring). so my opinion is that any descent dog could obtain a SchH title.


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