# Schutzhund drives discussion



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I have been reading about drives and of course like every other dog topic there are conflicting resources. Some say there are hundreds of different drives others mention a few. Last night, I read something about pack drive and of course was trying to apply that to Schutzhund, but then thought maybe there isn’t an application or maybe it doesn’t even exist. So, I am curious what everyone’s opinions are on this subject. 

• Which school of thought are you? Hundreds of drives or few?
• Which drives are used in Schutzhund?
• When/how is each drive used in Schutzhund? (Yep, I know this would take for ever to explain. I am just looking for high level summary)


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't think pack drive is as highly prized as it used to be. Food, toys, electric, (especially with the Malinois people), have all become the main means of motivation vs praise from the handler. I think most people have not really experienced a dog where the handler is the attraction while others are too busy trying to use the new popular methods to even notice if their dog has this.

I try not to get caught up in all the many definitions of drives, that is only useful to a point. I know way too many people who can resite every word of that stuff but watching them train is downright painful.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Ive really never dwelled too much about the different drives or searched too hard for any facts regarding them, because I know there are so many opinions...however I have my notions. I think the problem is how people interpret different behaviours as being the result of a specific drive. 
In regards to SchH I think the main drives which can be used are food, prey, fight, defense, most certainly pack drive! As far as when and how they are used in SchH depend entirely on the dog. 
Maybe not every dog uses all of these drives, maybe they do! Im sure some would say there are more drives then this, and who knows who is right or wrong. 

Pack drive IMO can be used in all phases and paints a true picture of teamwork!

I certainly fell suspect of not being aware of pack drive with my girl, until someone told me to get rid of the toy in obedience, and to stop rewarding so much, that she is highly attractable just for working with me. The longer I do obedience with my girl the more in drive she gets, and a simple smile or good girl will get her higher in drive. I often don't reward her with a toy until after an entire ob session, in less I'm working on something which warrants it more often. 

In protection, so many times I see dogs who will bump/bite/look around during the B&H when the handler approaches. Perhaps because the handler creates some sort of conflict in training there, or lack of pack drive? I don't really know, but I know in ALL phases it's important to communicate to the dog when they are doing good. I often see people who don't praise or reassure their dogs enough, or the praise has no meaning, before you can communicate effectively with praise your dog has to understand what praise is, praise needs to be taught to be meaningful. Just as you need to teach your dog what wrong means! Black/White









For tracking I've heard people say to be quiet and let your dog work.. maybe Im wrong but I certainly tell my dog when she is doing good, or if she's not! 

These are just my thoughts, with no founded proof, just what Ive gathered, and Ive not been doing this all that long, so I could be way off base.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: These are just my thoughts, with no founded proof, just what Ive gathered, and Ive not been doing this all that long, so I could be way off base.



What you said is "proof" enough. How can you be off base when you see the results with your own eyes? More people should try that where they do what works vs what some video or what someone tells them to is the "right way" when it feels all wrong. 

The problems in the H&B can be the result of a number of things but it certainly can be related to the fact that people seem afraid to praise their dog there or their praise doesn't really sound like praise. Mostly they are correcting their dog over and over, both verbally and physically ... usually harder or more often than necessary. They are too busy trying to make the dog a little nutty with too much stimulation from the helper or there is the opposite problem of not enough drive and the dog being asked to do a H&B when he is not ready . Less attraction to the helper can mean more attraction to the handler and if the handler has two left feet, well.....the dog will look back to see if they need any help. The dog has to trust the handler and often, the handler has damaged that trust by doing what I said above.

I tell people to be quiet in tracking because they are constantly nagging the dog with sharp words and again, damaging that trust. The praise just has to be at the right level and at the right place in tracking but it certainly is appropriate to praise there.

The dog has to feel like the handler wants them to do these things but so many handlers only seem to know the word NO....or my least favorite word "phooey". Seems once a person learns that word they just can't seem to stop saying it. Try watching at a club and count the number of no's, phooeys and corrections vs the number of times you hear praise. Many clubs are way out of balance in that regard.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I guess that was just my disclaimer







Often it's hard for me to find the right words for explaining how I see things, I'd be a horrible teacher. 

I had to laugh about "phooey", very true. It seems folks have no qualms about yelling at their dogs, and sometimes if they decide to praise their dogs, it sounds the same as the yelling only different words, yelling "good dog" meant as praise is useless and most likely more damaging! 

I'm rather soft spoken, and have had more than one person tell me that I need to have a stronger voice about giving commands. While there may be some validity in that , I always shrug it off because Ive yet to see a need for it. I don't see the point in yelling commands when speaking them works fine. Especially when my dog has probably never even heard me yelling before. 

To Ruthie, I know people always say, to get out there and see dogs in training, at trials, watch, listen, etc. 

The truth is, that really is the best way to learn, someone (not me) could probably explain the different drives and where and how and when they are generally expressed but SEEING these things for yourself is really the best way to learn anything. I have learned way more by just watching dogs in training and asking questions about things I notice then all the books, websites, videos, I've read or watched. And by doing this, I think you will find, the "terms" are actually not so important... you will begin to be able to read the dog itself and SEE when they are switching drives, and what made them do so.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakpraise needs to be taught to be meaningful. Just as you need to teach your dog what wrong means! Black/White


How would you go about teaching this? To teach to dog to get deep satisfaction from praise alone?


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

By pairing it with good things! ( Good things vary from dog to dog.. food, petting, TOYS!) 

However, if a dog is lacking in pack drive it might not be as easy to acheive this, maybe it would just take longer? Not sure, as it was quite natural with my girl dog, BUT with my boy dog that is a whole different story.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Anne and Kristi, I understand what you are saying. The application is what is important. I am just not a "learn by do" person.

I am a corporate trainer by profession and do a lot of work with learning styles. Some people can learn just by watching other people, some can learn just by trying it out themselves... I need to talk about it, understand the theory behind it THEN do it. 

That is why I ask so many theory and termanology questions here. I want to understand the concepts behind what is happening so that when I see it on the field then I can make the connections or when working with my own dog I can trouble shoot rather than just blindly following training methods. 
I know this is probably really annoying to my club members because I don't really "get" what they are telling me till I go home and research it.









When I read things, I always try to apply to what I see my dog doing or what I have seen other dogs doing. Just so you know, my philosophy is that it is great to learn from others with more experience but the bottom line for me is that training is about MY DOG...period. If I try a method and it doesn't work for him, or does anything to damage the bond between us it is out the door. That is why it is so important for me to understand the why behind it so I can tweek methods and theory to work for us.

So... do you see pack drive as the dogs desire to work with and please the handler?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> > Quote:
> > ...The dog has to feel like the handler wants them to do these things but so many handlers only seem to know the word NO....or my least favorite word "phooey". Seems once a person learns that word they just can't seem to stop saying it. Try watching at a club and count the number of no's, phooeys and corrections vs the number of times you hear praise. Many clubs are way out of balance in that regard.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:So... do you see pack drive as the dogs desire to work with and please the handler?


Yes and it is absolutely genetic.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

So in a young pup how does the pack drive show itself? How can you tell if a pup has pack drive or how strong it is? Does it have anything to do with his retrieve? Or his desire to follow his person around? What do you watch for?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

The behaviors in my dog that I think would illustrate pack drive would include...

- being velcro dog at home
- if I am in a room with a closed door, he lays in front of the door until I open it.
- if DH comes in the house first, he completely ignores him and sticks his head out the door to wait for me
- when he hears the laptop click closed he runs to see what I am going to do next
- while doing protection work when he gets the sleeve he runs to show me/ stand by me


Am I understanding?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Mostly it is a strong interest in the handler....and no, it doesn't mean they are "clingy". Can't really explain it clearly, you have to experience it I guess. The dogs I had/have who have this are always happy to be with me, seem to like playing tug because I am playing it with them and really enjoy being petted. When I give the tug they come right toward me to be petted vs taking it and running the other way. There is a look in their eyes and on their face of happiness or maybe joy is a better word when they are doing things with me. A lot of the time in heeling the head will move from side to side and the mouth will be open like they are smiling.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Anne and others, do you feel an example or "pack drive" with ahuman would be:

Green dog just being shown an exercise, in this case tending/boundary work on sheep. The dog is walked around the border, "good boy" when in position, "ack" when over the boundary.
Release dog, he figures it out off-leash, with sheep in the graze, in practically minutes.
Dog says.....
_<span style="color: #000099">Sheep are cool, but my human likes me to run back and forth on the boundary, not chase them, so that's what I'll do.</span>_

Or would that be exhibiting some other drive?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I do, yes. I think some people make the mistake of wanting to label that a soft dog. I have had dogs that were exceptionally tough and serious dogs in protection but I could call them off in the helper even in mid-flight. They could always hear me and comply without me having to yell or even raise my voice.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: VandalMostly it is a strong interest in the handler....and no, it doesn't mean they are "clingy"....


Does this mean that you DON'T think the examples I listed are pack drive?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I wasn't responding to your post, I was responding to Jason. You both posted at the same time, so I was busy typing to him when you posted.

As for what you posted, it is hard to say...I am just talking about the dogs I have experienced and the only reason I agreed with what Mary said is because what she described is almost identical to what I experienced with those dogs. Your dog could very well have pack drive, (they all do to a degree), but some dogs have a much larger dose of it than others and for me, those are the dogs I enjoyed/enjoy working with the most. To me, that is what a GSD should be.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks. Wasn't trying to be snarky. I just wasn't sure if your response was only to Jason or was including my question as well. I appreciate you taking the time to share your observations.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Hmm ... from day 1 My pup shows that he does not like to be petted and likes to take things away from you and run away with it. I wonder if he got that from his parents. His breeder mentioned his mother is very possessive. I guess possessiveness and pack drive are somewhat exclusive?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Isn't your pup a Zasko son?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Yes. Was Zasko a pack driven dog when you saw him?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Jason, Bison has never liked being petted either. Only when he is very tired or sick. He will tolerate it because he did the "touch" training when he was little, but he really doesn't like it.

If possessiveness and pack drive are connected, it doesn't make sense to me...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One thing I noticed immediately, and what I liked the most about Zasko, was his interest in Rinus. There is something in the eyes of these dogs that I am talking about and the way they just stare at the handler. Hard to explain but you know it when you see it.

I had a client call me and complain about her pup not being a "natural retriever". Just because a dog has certain genetic traits, that doesn't free the handler of all responsibility .








To make a long story short with my client, all that was missing was praise. A few weeks later she was having a hard time containing her enthusiasm for her pup who was now bringing everything back to her.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

My boy dog, Bixler, is very clingy, prob moreso than the girls actually, but yet he still doesnt have the willingnes for working with me. Bixler likes to be near me, Hexe likes to work WITH me.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Interesting thread, I am finding with Masi, she is the first gsd I've had that is more into praise as a reward vs food/toys. Don't get me wrong she has a high toy/tug/play drive (I would say) but a "good girl" / happy voice/ pet/ really gets her much more amped up to 'do' something than anything else. 

I tend to ignore the "bad" (unless it's a major infraction) and reward for good behaviors, I can issue a COME and she will turn in mid air to race back to me for that "good girl"...

I am learning alot from her, she's an awesome dog who always has a smile on her face)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My Kenya won't really work for anything *but* the praise and silly games we play (patting her up and letting her jump all over me, stuff like that). She will train for treats but it's not really what motivates her, if that makes sense. But she's a bit of a nerveball and really needs my approval to feel comfortable and act free.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Lies makes perfect sense))) I see that with Masi, food is 'ok', and she is a chow hound, but its not something that motivates her either...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

She is really easy to train as far as picking up new skills quickly, but at the same time, if any dog exposes any weaknesses on my part or any kinks in our working relationship, it's her. She's not a dog where you can just whip a ball around, pop it under your chin and voila! focus. No, she has to really be in a safe, happy place in the relationship in order to to truly be focused and move with spirit. I cannot apply too much pressure from me or it shows and I can't simply cover up how my mood or frustration might effect her by popping out the ball.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

This thread remember me of Auca the GSD/Belgian mix I trained for SAR. I was staying in the house of her new handler for the holydays and we laughed that Auca was like Hermione of Harry Potter, always wanting to be praised, the first of her class, to show how good dog she is and how good her work is. She has an excellent prey drive, but she is able o work as good only for a pat on the head.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:There is something in the eyes of these dogs that I am talking about and the way they just stare at the handler. Hard to explain but you know it when you see it.


You definitely do! And your right a dog like this is a pleasure to work!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

So my thoughts from reading this thread.....
A clingy dog may have "pack drive" in that they need to be with their human/pack to feel comfortable and happy. So pack drive + insecurity = clingy dog.

Pack drive with strong nerve and confidence is a happy, laughing, working dog.

So the difference between the 2 is similar to the difference between defense drive and fight drive and you'll know it when you see it.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1So my thoughts from reading this thread.....
> A clingy dog may have "pack drive" in that they need to be with their human/pack to feel comfortable and happy. So pack drive + insecurity = clingy dog.
> 
> Pack drive with strong nerve and confidence is a happy, laughing, working dog.
> ...


That makes sense!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I had never really thought about it before, but those are my thoughts right now

I would also think a dog with strong pack drive could be ruined by having a poor leader.... One too weak or one who breaks trust.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

My current WL female is a dog who I believe is a bit clingy at home-follows me from room to room making sure I don't go anywhere







but is not biddable in work. Works in obedience for food/ or to avoid correction- Not strong enough nerve for protection work. 

I actually thought there might have been something wrong with her as a young dog because of her lack of interest in people( as in her family), she always prefers other dogs. There was nothing in her early socialisation which rings any bells I think it is just her personality.
I remember walking her and my other dog(very different- he would light up when I spoke to him- yet was not clingy as she is in the house ) in the bush and the only way to get her back was to call my other dog because she would follow him. I would also walk her alone without the influence of my other dog and LOL what a effort to get her trained to come when called







She's much better now as a 4year old but a leopard doesn't change its spots









I always remember a comment from a Police Dog handler on another forum- he said he personally always preferred dogs with genetic obedience, dogs lacking it acted as if they didn't care if you were there or not , they worked for themselves and weren't as enjoyable to work and be with. Interesting ! Probably next time I would go for a dog with more biddability







not that I would ever replace Abby, she has her good points too


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: I would also think a dog with strong pack drive could be ruined by having a poor leader


Maybe any dog can be ruined but in my experience, this is no more true with these types of dogs than others. Maybe you can leave these dogs in "the gray" a bit easier though. I worked a few of them before obedience was so much about treats and playing. It's a separate case of toughness and the dogs I worked had that, along with this very strong pack drive. I always referred to it as willingness but there is a bit more to it than that, so, I will call it pack drive now since it seems to be defined as I know it using that term.
One dog I worked had no interest in food or toys , so it was all the leash and praise and me. This is what I said earlier in the thread, a case of where the dog views the handler as the attraction vs. being attracted to you because you have treats or a ball stuck in your arm pit...( sorry, I just don't have any respect for that type of "training"). 
Years ago, when clickers were first being introduced, if anyone suggested I use one, that suggestion would actually make me angry. It seemed absurd to me that I would ever need to "bribe" my dogs into doing something. Sure, I understand the concept of the clicker now but even still, those dogs would not have" fit" with clicker training . It seemed like an insult to suggest using that with one of those dogs and even now, I look back and pretty much feel the same way. Those dogs were bred to work with me, there was no need for that. That was for a different breed of dog. While I will work a puppy with a clicker for a while, mostly I find myself going back to the old way I have always trained. These types of dogs just look and respond better when I work them that way. I think of them as dogs who liked knowing what their job is vs. eating or playing during obedience. I guess in a way it is similar to what I have said in the past where I talked about dogs who needed a reason to do protection, vs. just playing at it. They would look like crap if the helper just wanted to shake a rag at them but give then a reason to really protect and work in protection and it was a whole other story.
I guess people could make a nice argument with me about what I am saying here but maybe you would have to experience those dogs to really understand . You do not see many of them anymore and they would most likely not fit in to today's SchH because most people would have no idea how to work with them.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

There are at least 4 things I can think of that are ruining the breed's legendary trait of pack drive: the use of toys in training, the concept of the sleeve as a prey object, the use of e-collars (once saw a dog with 3 e-collars in different parts of the body in a Belgian Mal trainer's seminar - looked like Frankenstein's monster!), and the points scoring emphasis on inch by inch precision while losing the bigger picture. Pack drive should be part of a dog's instinct, but dogs are now being bred to adjust to training methods instead of the other way around. It's very much the tail wagging the dog.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Okay, so just thinking a little more.. I wonder, and I'm simply talking about my dog here and in regards to obedience specifically, if one couldn't argue that the willingness and joy for pleasing and working with the handler couldn't be just conditioned, rather than pack drive. I trained my dog's obedience primarily on my own without any guidance, it wasn't until she was over a year that I was able to start working with someone. I rewarded with a toy a lot while teaching her obedience, so when I did start to work with someone she was already trained, and that is when I was told I didnt have to do that with my girl. At that point Im sure she could have been just conditioned that doing obedience led to playing with the toy. 

But it's certain that she continues to get more and more excited about obedience, and her enthusiasm only increases, even though Im not using the toy as much. At this point I can take her anywhere and she jumps out of the car ready to work, often she will just jump into heel position and start barking at me to work even when Ive given no cues as to thats what we're doing, have no toy, food, etc. Sometimes when I just want to take her for a hike or a walk, it takes her a minute to realize we're not doing obedience, and even then sometimes she will still be persistant that she wants to work!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Interesting observation Kristi..


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

So I was reading this old interview with Bart Bellon the other day -

_Do you use food for training your young dogs in obedience? 
No, never. I hate the use of food. I want the dog working for me, with me, not for food. The ball or tug can be useful for motivation, but not too much. If you use it too much the dog is working only for the ball and your relationship suffers. Dogs also don’t learn well when they are very high in drive. I want the dog to submit to my will during the teaching process, then I can build him back up with motivation. 

So, how do you start obedience? With the electric collar? 
Yes, for instance with heeling. I put the young dog on a leash, not attached to the e-collar, and start with a little correction when he is getting away from me, then when he is responding I start with the collar at a low level. Sometimes you must show him the power of the collar at a little higher level then go back to very low levels. I can teach exercises very fast with the collar. I can teach the positions, sit, down, stand in five minutes. Ten years ago we were using the collar only for punishment, very crude, now we’ve learned to use it to motivate the dog._


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Jason what are your thoughts on that? When I read the excerpt, I kind of get the no food/treats thing. 
But the logic behind the ecollar I do not get. In my (limited experience) opinion, the dog is still not working for the handler. But rather the dog would be "motivated" to not get a stim.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Or depending on the dog could it be working out of fear/avoidance of the corrections..

I will say.. I like using my treats and toys for teaching/shaping a behavior!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:I wonder, and I'm simply talking about my dog here and in regards to obedience specifically, if one couldn't argue that the willingness and joy for pleasing and working with the handler couldn't be just conditioned


What is it that you think that person saw in your dog when they suggested you don't use the toy so much? 

I have worked hundreds of dogs and I will say it again, pack drive is genetic. One day, you may work a dog who really doesn't have it, and then you will appreciate more what you have right now.....not that you don't, but thinking that you can condition any dog to work for you is simply not correct. 

One of my biggest complaints about the show lines, ( no not all of them so we can stay on topic here), is the way they will shut down in obedience. Which leads me to what Leesa just said concerning fear and avoidance. The show dogs have a very hard time dealing with any type of correction in obedience. They will shut down and then look like a mule where nothing you do can get them moving forward again. This is NOT GSD temperament. A GSD should have the fortitude to deal with a little conflict and be able to work their way through it. In fact, they perform better when they work thru these things just like they perform better when they face and overcome stress in protection.
These show dogs I am talking about are not stubborn, although it sure looks that way, they are simply so disturbed by a normal correction they shut down entirely. Extreme avoidance behavior is what it is. Using other methods, ( and I will use an e-collar with SLs if it is an obedience client), is doing NOTHING to correct the problem. That is a genetic defect in those dogs and it goes back to what Ocean said that so many people now want to ignore. With the show dogs it is because they are not worked. With the rest, the methods are having a huge impact and not just on protection. You can't see if a dog will handle a little adversity from the handler when there is none. You can't tell what the dog is made of if the method doesn't tap into that aspect of the dog. It is left to lay dormant and when you can't see a trait, it can be eliminated without even realizing it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I love a high pack drive dog!! What a joy to live with. I want the other drives strong also, so that I can motivate speed and correctness. Besides it is such a joy to be able to reward a high pack dog with something, as they are sooo rewarding to the handler to work with. I have a dog whose breeder obviously selects highly for this trait. It is very genetic. 

I am not sure there is any one right or best way to train behaviors. If a person can read and motivate a dog then they can probably get some good behaviors. 

I have recently been thinking about the Bellon kind of stuff before Jason posted it, but not in reference to Bellon. I have old tapes of Sylvia Bishop and have been to see some of her students. The style of training also is in line with Bellon's remarks. The dogs are taught to submit to the handler and to accept physical manipulation early on in the behavior training. 

While the training might be labelled "traditional", it is not done in the way that you traditionally see people do compulsion! There is no thought of "NO" or incorrectness really. The trainer's attitude and approach has a very positive affect on the dog. 

I do use a lot of food, but am convinced of the value of this early compulsory work. The handlers attitude and feeling are so important in it though. I think that much of the fall out you see from badly done compulsion is because of the handlers emotion, energy etc rather than the physical event. Dogs may not judge that physicality...but they do not understand human emotion and attitude gone wrong.

I also see this work as not so much being a correction.... the dog does not know correct exercise from incorrect exercise really early on. It is more of a physical way of communicating what is needed and it also sends an important message to the dog and really actually motivates them. Bellon mentions this. 

I am beginning to add more of this concept to my training. But it is not recognizable as the corrective, pressured, avoidance based compulsion we often think of. I think Anne may be speaking of this powerfully positive type of picture when she talks about working with dogs with a compulsion type approach. What the trainer brings to this is so important. 

That Bellon dude gets some happy, consistent and amazing behaviors and has some great accomplishments! Sylvia Bishop won Crufts Obedience a number of times. Their dogs have an absolute blast working with and for them!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Carla already said it before I could. Most people are used to seeing dogs worked all WRONG when there are leash corrections. Just like the people who learn the word phooey and then can't stop saying it, when they put a pinch on their dog, they can't stop using it. 

The end result of what I am talking about is a very happy dog who will prance in the heeling. That is what I teach first and that work just seems to set the tone for the rest of the training. There are corrections at first but needed much less, and sometimes not at all, once the initial work is done. If I had to keep correcting I would know that the training wasn't working. 
Also, the handler must always be "the light at the end of the tunnel". That means no anger, lots of praise for the proper response and perfect timing with the corrections and no, the corrections, many times, don't need to be much more than a light pop.

One thing about motivation using balls and treats is if that is not the true motivation for the dog. Then you see avoidance of a different kind. The dog is kind of in the gray area for the lack of a better way to put it. The dog is allowed too much space to not really pay attention and because that is allowed, that is what they do. The answer to this has been , again, what Ocean said, where the dogs are bred to be too nutty for toys. 
Boy, this is harder to put in words than I thought.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I think he said she was extremely attractable and wants to work for me, which, yes, basically pack drive. 
You are right, in that, I've not trained a lot of dogs, besides my showdog who you just described, So I DO appreciate my girls biddability, but just got to thinking about the differences between the 2 dogs, and a big one is drive level, so was curious if a dog had the drive if they could be conditioned to enjoy and want to work for the handler. But thinking a little more now, I can think of a couple dogs Ive seen with a lot of drive, that just didnt seem to have the same enjoyment in the work, which I once wrote off as poor training. 

I'm actually currently working with several young show dogs.. I haven't been working with them all that long, and have not used any corrections yet, they are very different then MY personal show dog, (they have drive) and of course different than my WL gal (not as much as her), since they aren't my dogs I am not going to use them as examples about things Im noticing, however Im excited about working with them and what I will be able to learn from it. That was sort of why I wondered about conditioning the joy for the work if the dog had some drive. But, you are right, it is genetic, Im sure I will see it more for myself as I see and work, with more dogs.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

It sounds to me that a dog with a high pack drive the relationship between the handler and the dog is extremely important (not that it isn't with others just moreso with high pack drive).

So, I wonder if corrections are given incorrectly or not understood, would it cause stress in this type of dog. Would you see stress behaviors like whining, chewing... avoidance. Or if the dog isn't getting enough praise, the confusion would cause stress because they REALLY want to please the handler but don't know how because the right behaviors aren't being marked.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

What Anne and samba said is very interesting. 

I'm learning all this stuff myself right now and Ike is getting close to the age where I want to - well, not train him in compulsion - but teach him what compulsion means. Michael Ellis refers to it as "yielding to the leash" and I was watching the Balabanov DVD last night and there was a section on "find the leg" where Ivan is clearly "dragging" the dog around by the collar and into the right heel position. We already went through something similar with puppy Ike and tracking where we have to teach him (through prong on dead ring) that he can't just go out, act crazy and track whichever he wants, that he has to track the way we want him to track. So there's already some "compulsion" there and he's not even 5 months old yet. 

Bellon is just interesting to me because our TD and several other people in the club who have trained with him extensively in the past and they all report that he uses electric on young dogs and he works wonder with them and the dogs look great ...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have never done compulsion with a 5 month old puppy. Please do not mis-understand. There is a time for everything and five month old puppies are too young for that IMO.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Does playing with your dog have any connection to pack drive? What I mean is this....I love to play with my dog (with balls, kongs on ropes, and anything that he can either fetch or tug) and we play probably ten times more than we are actually "working" obedience or anything like that. If I throw a toy, he fetches it and brings it in to me, such that if I were to run away from him, he'd chase after me, whining and pressing the toy into my belly. In my house I have lots of random dog toys and lots of the balls we use in training (the ones that got de-roped). He will carry these around and chew on them but the second I even make a move in the direction of the box that contains the same balls still on strings, the ones I use in training, he flies over and is ready to go. So it seems he's motivated not only by the toy, but by using the toy in play, not just possessing the toy? I see some other dogs get rewarded with their toy, and if it gets away from the handler, the dog only seems interested in running off where he can shake, chew, or claw at the toy and if the handler tries to get it back the dog just keeps trying to keep it away like he wants it for himself and looks at the handler like he can bugger off. Is this having to do with pack drive, or something else? Pack drive I've never quite understood, especially how it works between canine-human.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I also have not paid a lot of attention to the Bellon guy. Some people are very good at using certain techniques but when they try to teach it to others, it gets distorted. 
I am not a big e-collar fan and it is not because I think it is cruel. I think it is taking away the handler/dog relationship and if you read what I said about using it on show dogs, you might get what I am saying. 
I have seen so many people who are e-collar users calling themselves trainers but they seem more emotionally attached to their controller than they are to their dogs.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

OK, just kinda “thinking out loud” here...

Doesn't it all just boil down to communciation? Face it, we don't speak the same language as our dogs. And really do any two dogs even speak the same dialect. To me, methods are just attempts to bridge the language barrier. They might not hit on the dialect your dog speaks. That is why they don't work on all dogs.

That is why it is so important to me to learn the theory. If I can understand what I am trying to accomplish with the method, I can adjust. Example: If I try a method and my dog shuts down or doesn't "get it" it may be that I didn't do the method right, but it may just be that he didn't understand what I am trying to tell him.

I know it might sound silly, and I have never told this to anyone before...but sometimes when I train at home I just explain to the dog what I want him to do. I don't have delusions that he understands my verbiage (although he probably does pick up more than I give him credit for) but I know from acting experience that when you put your self in a state of mind you communicate with your body sub-consciously. So, when I give my dog lecture on what we are going to learn and how I want him to stand and what I want him to do, I am also sending non-verbal clues and tone of voice and probably even hand gestures. That he CAN read and understand.

I know this might seem off topic, so I will wrap it up to explain the connection. This discussion is has challenged me to concentrate more on this type of behavior even if other trainers think it is weird. I don’t know if my Bison has a “high” pack drive or not, but he is a GSD so he has some. I think it is important to incorporate this into my training as well as what I have learned about prey drive, and fight drive...


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

For me, the concept of using the drives in your training really blends into what trainers and breeders are producing.

If you see tracking as strictly an obedience exercise, or you just train obedience with a ball, or you work hard to avoid corrections, or you continually apply electric to get behaviors (and I have seen dogs that look super trained like that)....
what you lose is an understanding of the dog, and what the dog is truly capable of.

Does that make any sense?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I would call a lot of what I am talking about "physical placement" of the dog. With Sylvia it is very hands on but is done in the midst of active play and fun. If I recall correctly, the Volhards also introduce a physical component to training early in the exercise. For Ellis (I haven't seen extensively) it seems to be physical guidance with the leash to find and keep dog in position. In the old days, Bernie Brown, an obedience trainer, used the concept of binding the dog to you in heel position with leash in the beginning. 

I used the "binding the dog to you" method with my two rescues as they were older and had no experience with training. It helped get things going with them. 

The things I am talking about are not leash pops or collar corrections really. They do communicate the training relationship to the dog and the compulsory nature of the activity, but in a manner without deletorious effects.


Bellon-- I have not seen his training progression. I don't know that electric is any more in the way of relationship in training than a leash and correction collar, but maybe it is. I imagine as with any tool, it is all in how it is utilized. I bet Bellon is not like your typical e-collar junkie, but I could be wrong. I also am pretty sure he would not be using the collar for the reason it might be utilized on a type of show line dog because he would not be choosing that sort of dog to compete with. Really would like to learn more of his methods some day. 

In the methods I am talking about leash the physical manipulation, electric.... these tools are not being used to punish in any way at all.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The problem with discussing these things on a board is once you start talking about one specific thing, all the attention shifts to that one aspect. That is what people see in their mind's eye and it distorts what you are trying to commuicate. There are many aspects and what goes on in the training has much more to do with it than just the leash. It is the relationship the handler has with the dog that allows the dog to almost not notice the leash. That's about the best i can do for now, maybe I will think of a better way to put it after I go work my dogs.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm confused!! lol.. No surprise there..

So if I have this correctly.. A dog with pack drive is one that wants to work with it's handler (interact) and not a dog that fights against him/her.. maybe the dog has it's own agenda..

So a dog with pack drive works off of just praise from the handler or can you use toys, food, also? I would imagine that these dogs are also very in tune with their handlers..

Where does biddability come into play? Is that pack drive also?







Or am I just muddying the water more..


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I agree that a good relationship with a dog with strong pack drive, will allow for them to be corrected and not see it as something bad, more of, "oh, I gotta try harder" The corrections bring them MORE into drive, rather then squishing it (talking about in heeling now atleast) 

Ive always said, the more I try to learn, the more confused I get!! When I start to think about the "why, what, when, how's " I only create more questions for myself!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Confused ... me too!

So what's the relationship between compulsion/correction and a dog with a strong pack drive? Is this a dog that can take a lot of correction and still be willing to work because he just loves working with his handler so much?

Take for example how Ike's breeder describes his father Zasko, a dog that Anne has seen and said to have good pack drive. Rinus the breeder said the dog has an "enormous willingness to work in obedience with a lot of energy and intensity but also a real no nonsense dog, that can handle everything, corrections included, an absolutely clearheaded dog". Does the dog's ability to take a correction from the handler and continue to work hard come from his strong pack drive then?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ah, I posted after Kristi ... good explanation.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Here's something I've noticed more in my female.. I will be out in the yard goofing off w/the dogs kicking or tossing their balls around.. And I will start heeling with my male.. and my female will come over and fall right in sync next to him heeling, looking at me.. she may still have her ball in her mouth, she may not.. Or if I do some random sits/downs with him she comes over and joins in on that..

It's interesting..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:I don't have delusions that he understands my verbiage (although he probably does pick up more than I give him credit for) but I know from acting experience that when you put your self in a state of mind you communicate with your body sub-consciously.


I know exactly what you are saying here because I do this as the helper. That is part of what people call "presence" ....which is also a multi-faceted skill and not as simple as people might think. It is VERY important what frame of mind you are in when you train, took me quite a while to get a grip on my own moods when I first started training and there are times I can still struggle with that. So, I agree that it is probably making a difference in your training. How people prepare their mood for training is up to them...so, whatever works..


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: Ive always said, the more I try to learn, the more confused I get!! When I start to think about the "why, what, when, how's " I only create more questions for myself!


Exactly!!!

That's why I try to just stick with working the dog in front of me and not worry about the different drives..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Is this a dog that can take a lot of correction and still be willing to work because he just loves working with his handler so much?


 Yes, I guess that might be a good way to put it. What Rinus said is exactly how I would describe that dog. There is a video of Zasko heeling on his site. Someone can post the link....you can see it in how the dog is heeling. Clearly NOT for a ball stuck in Rinus's arm pit....sorry had to take one more shot at that....lol.
Tracks are aged...have to go.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh, I am not clear on the pack drive and correction thing I guess either. I think various thought threads got intertwined. I have a dog with very strong pack but she is soft to correction. I trained her without a leash for the most part. If I were to correct her much without her being in pretty high drive, she would not be a happy worker.That is a bit difficult to work with. So you need a biddable, pack driven dog who is resilient to correction for a better package.

I am trying to say regarding compulsion that the handlers energy, attitude, relationship with the dog carry a huge amount of the load in training. The methods fall secondary to this. Good techniques or equipment or tools go bad in the wrong handler/dog relationship picture. While we can explain how to do something or how to use something, it is much harder to explain the demeanor and approach of the handler. The "whose doing it" part of the equation is large.

I have seen positive and very compulsory both work well and have seen both fail miserably. It was not the "what" but the "who" that made the difference. Its not an easy picture to paint with words. 

It is liking watching a great therapist, such as Rogers, conduct therapy. You can dissect the methods and the applications and call them Rogerian therapy. They may not be so successful applied by the next practitioner because the largest part was the essence of the person applying them.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

We seem to be going back and forth here with trying to define this and I think I just confused it a bit more with my response to Jason. I will try again one last time. 
There is a level of willingness to these dogs but there is just this high degree of devotion to the handler that is simply impossible to explain in words it seems. Carla keeps touching on it when she talks about what the handler must be like. One thing you have to consider about Zasko is this...Rinus LOVES that dog and that is just a huge part of this. It is the emotional connection between the dog and handler and maybe that is what is the best way to describe pack drive. I think it has to go both ways, like what Carla was saying. 
Leesa asked about toys with these types of dogs. Well yes, you can certainly use toys but I guess, ( and I hate to make human comparisons but I will just this once), it might be the difference between a hug from someone you care about vs them handing you some money because they like you. Know what I mean? Again, there is an emotional aspect to this and animals are capable of emotions...maybe people start to forget that when they are too busy using gadgets and toys.

One last thing. I have used clickers and toys and the dogs perform very well for that. However, when I add praise to that and then take a minute after each training to just sit and pet them and let them know how much I love them , that performance improves dramatically. No matter what my dogs are doing, be it tracking or protection or obedience, I make myself stop and spend a few minutes there with them afterwards vs just taking them back to their crate right away. More people should try that, and more praise in their training, and you will see what I mean. Has to be genuine though or you can just forget it. You can't fool living things when it comes to emotions.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieI know it might sound silly, and I have never told this to anyone before...but sometimes when I train at home I just explain to the dog what I want him to do. I don't have delusions that he understands my verbiage (although he probably does pick up more than I give him credit for) but I know from acting experience that when you put your self in a state of mind you communicate with your body sub-consciously. So, when I give my dog lecture on what we are going to learn and how I want him to stand and what I want him to do, I am also sending non-verbal clues and tone of voice and probably even hand gestures. That he CAN read and understand.


That reminds me of something Leslie McDevitt said about a video she'd posted on her email list - someone asked her what command she'd used at one point, and her response was: "I don't know what I said, the dogs just do what I meant".


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: G-burg
> 
> 
> > Quote: Ive always said, the more I try to learn, the more confused I get!! When I start to think about the "why, what, when, how's " I only create more questions for myself!
> ...










We all learn differently. You just have to do what works for you.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

A bit from a description of a Sylvia seminar..."You can enhance your dog's training using Sylvia's unprecedented combination of fun and motivation using just a simple buckle collar and YOU."

It reminds me of Anne's comments on the handler being an attractant, a source of energy, drive and reward.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks, Anne. That last post made it very clear. Thanks for all who have piped in. I really enjoyed this discussion and learning about this has helped me diagnose a training problem that I have been having. Now on to the application...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Agree. Last post by Anne = excellent advice!

And, Anne, I did go back and look at Rinus and Zasko. Yup, no ball under the armpit there! Zasko was prancing the whole way up and down the training field too.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have a question for those of you who are thinking your dog has very high pack drive. Is your dog also very protective of you and your family?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I can't answer, I've never been in a situation where I've needed protecting)) 

Out in public, she is a "watcher", if say, I stop and talk to someone she will sit/lay quietly at my side and 'watch' that person. She is no golden retriever when it comes to people she is unfamiliar with out in public. She is disinterested / aloof, but does alot of 'watching'.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Yes.

My Draco will not let anyone touch my daughter, even if they are visiting and stay for a period of time. There is no one in his world but my husband, daughter, and I.

My old Torro was the same way of me. I had him before I married, and he learned to tolerate my husband, but it was always me in his world. Daughter came along and she was small and belonged to me, so she was ok.

I've had others that were NOT that way (high pack drive) and they were not fun to work.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

My girl would protect me if needed, I am _certain_ of that. However she is not needlessly protective like my male dog.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My extremely high pack drive dog thinks the rest of people outside our family should drop off the face of the earth. She will allow people in escorted, just let us leave them alone in a room...they can not make a move. Poor people have to call for someone to come and let them go to the bathroom. She is fortunately very obedient, so its worked out so far! 

This dog is loaded in pack drive and is very protective of us and also will naturally protect my "stuff" if I lay it down beside her.

I have other dogs with less of a dose of pack drive and they were not nearly this naturally protective or attuned to me.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

This quote really caught my attention a few weeks ago when someone posted it on the Euro List. It was a discussion concerning social aggression. What struck me is how accurate this was about the dogs I have had with this very high pack drive. It sort of confirmed what I already thought, that the protective instinct is related to pack drive:



> Quote: In virtually all older texts describing the police service dog breeds a few points were always made. They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders..........


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: VandalI have a question for those of you who are thinking your dog has very high pack drive. Is your dog also very protective of you and your family?


Yes, but I have also had dogs with relatively lower pack drive and still very protective. The difference is my dogs with the higher pack drive look to me more to determine if a stranger is a threat or not. They are more sensitive to my cues (conscious or subconscious, intentional or otherwise) and they have a more natural "stand down" function if I don't feel any threat.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Wouldn't this depend on how much the handler "socialized" them and how much they encourage the dog to be friendly with strangers?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know how much it would affect it. I don't think I could "socialize" this out of my dog. She has spent hours learning to be "friendly" as that is what is often socially expected. She has lots of social behaviors on cue and is always happy to see children. I doubt I could ever "turn her" from her natural suspicion of strangers. It seems very hardwired.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well, I suppose you could say the dog might be more suspicious if it was less socialized but you cannot remove that suspicion and protectiveness in my opinion and experience. You can control it with obedience but it is an instinct, not a learned behavior.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

That makes sense. 

I am just having a difficult time making a direct connection between the pack drive and the protective behavior. Would defense or fight come into play with the protective behavior also?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If the dog has pack drive then they are tuned into you...they pick up your feelings...so if you were somewhere and felt threatened the dog would pick that up and perhaps react by becoming protective of you in that situation...at least I think that is how it relates


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well, I am having a hard time putting it in words , darn it. I just view that high level of devotion as lending itself to fierce protectiveness of the handler. Fight and courage would come into it if the dog actually engaged.
I have known more than a few GSDs who were just exceptionally protective of children and it goes back to that quote I provided that talked about their relationship with children. Children and their "pack" have "value" and are therefore something a dog would want to protect. Maybe I will think of a better way to put this later......


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Here is why I am having a difficult time with this connection... 

I think Bison has pack drive I haven't a lot of frame of reference, but because of the examples that I listed above, I would say high. When we are out and about he is aloof with strangers, the "I don't care about you at all attitude." He is curious, wanting to watch them and see what they are doing... but not engaging much. He certainly doesn't show any protective behaviors except MAYBE some body blocking or sitting in front of me. The only instance of protection I can think of is a story our dog sitter told me. She said that Moose was barking, growling and acting threatening toward her because his food bowl was full. She was trying to get to the door to leave but Moose was between her and the door. Bison body blocked Moose and "protected her" (her words) so she could get outside. Bison loves the dog sitter because she plays ball with him and he spent a lot of time at her place of business when he was a puppy.

Moose has very little pack drive. He pretty much lays on his bed all day and only cares to interact with us if there is food or training involved. Yet, when we are out and about, he is much more apt to try to "protect me". He is a resource guarder and has week nerve. He sees everything as a threat. He is very defensive.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

You don't have to make the connection. It is just what I have noticed in the dogs I had years ago and in some dogs a friend of mine breeds. I have not seen very many dogs like those dogs lately, so, it probably doesn't apply in most cases anymore.

Just my theory about it, not proven I guess.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was wondering if you, Anne, had seen or see many dogs like this and you answered my question. 

I will never see the number of dogs that you have, but I get out some and haven't met any dogs like mine with this extreme pack. I think I wouldn't have known it if I hadn't lived it.. that only makes sense. Hard to imagine something you have not seen.

The words you use to describe it are correct. It is a fierce protectiveness that does not come from fearfulness. It is intense devotion that the dog appears to live for.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Ah... I see.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SambaI was wondering if you, Anne, had seen or see many dogs like this and you answered my question.
> 
> I will never see the number of dogs that you have, but I get out some and haven't met any dogs like mine with this extreme pack. I think I wouldn't have known it if I hadn't lived it.. that only makes sense. Hard to imagine something you have not seen.
> 
> The words you use to describe it are correct. It is a fierce protectiveness that does not come from fearfulness.


Yeah, that is probably it. I probably haven't seen it. Trying to make connections with my past experiences. Well, at least now when I see it, I will know what it is.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

By fierce, I mean not as savage or ferocious, but rather fierce meaning ardent, intense and resolute.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:It is a fierce protectiveness that does not come from fearfulness.


Yes, for sure there is no fear in it. 
Sometimes I work on my friend's web page for her. When I have asked her to explain her dogs on there she comes up with very short and to the point descriptions. When she was describing one of her males she just told me to put this: " If you come onto the property and Raider is loose, you are looking for a way out". lol. I started to ask for more of a description than that and then decided that covered it.








Just no nonsense dogs that would have no qualms about taking on an intruder.
Editted to add: Like Carla just said, there is really nothing personal or nasty about what these dogs are doing...it is just their job and that goes back to what I said in the beginning of this thread.


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