# Breeder asking for cash...



## PorkandBeans

Should this be a red flag?

We met the breeder, the puppies and parents were great, the papers were in order, etc. and everything seemed ok so we put a deposit down on a puppy. I used a personal check for the deposit but the breeder is asking for cash for the remaining amount.

Does this seem strange to anyone else? I guess it's just because I never carry cash on me.


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## qbchottu

Most, if not all, breeders ask for cash. Personal checks bounce and after you have one or two screw you over, it's better to deal with cash. You also do not need to pay your sales tax if you pay cash. Nothing out of the ordinary.

They won't let you pay by check unless they know you personally.


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## DJEtzel

They may just want to make sure that such a large sum doesn't bounce. I wouldn't worry about it as long as you're getting a contract or "reciept" to prove you paid what you did.


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## N Smith

Depends, will you get a receipt/bill of sale etc?

Are they asking for cash because they will not take personal checks for the final amount? This is pretty common, the breeders usually ask for the certified check, money order, cash or in some cases paypal payments for the final amount of the purchase price. OR they will take a personal check but with the understanding that you cannot pick up your puppy until the check has cleared.

If they are not providing you with a bill of sale, I would be asking why. They may be trying to keep the cash under the table, but more importantly you need paperwork backing up the fact that you bought and paid for that dog and that you are the legal owner, in case something were to come up in the future.

Just my opinion, but thought I would throw it out there.


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## LaneyB

I never really asked my breeder - I paid the deposit with a check but brought cash for the rest because I assumed she would be more comfortable with cash. It doesn't seem like a red flag to me.


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## GsdLoverr729

I paid for Koda in cash (though she is from a BYB, I was given my money back the last time she saw her breeder because he is just so happy with her treatment, training, etc). 
But I also plan to pay for my next in cash, when I get him from a reputable breeder  I have always thought this was just the most comfortable and reliable way.


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## PorkandBeans

N Smith said:


> Depends, will you get a receipt/bill of sale etc?


Yes, I received a receipt for the deposit amount and I'm assuming she'll do the same for the remaining sum as well. 

Thanks for the replies everybody, I guess I just forgot what it was like paying for something that's not online with a credit card...how sad is that?


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## GsdLoverr729

Lol maybe do like I do, always keep a small amount of cash with you so that you remember how fun it is xD


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## Courtney

I paid cash, it was requested. My contract reflected the exact amount paid. It was no big deal to me and actually expected. As mentioned, checks bounce and most do not accept credit cards.


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## Sunflowers

PayPal deposit here, and the difference in cash.


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## Chris Wild

We've always taken personal checks for pups. Honestly never occurred to me not to. I figure if I trust this person with a pup, and have done my screening properly, then there's no worry about a bounced check. And I hate carrying large sums of cash around, even if just to the bank, so I actually prefer a check. Though some do show up with cash because they prefer it that way, and that's ok.

But that's me. I wouldn't consider it abnormal for a breeder to ask for cash and certainly not any sort of red flag.


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## Narny

Chris Wild said:


> We've always taken personal checks for pups. Honestly never occurred to me not to. I figure if I trust this person with a pup, and have done my screening properly, then there's no worry about a bounced check. And I hate carrying large sums of cash around, even if just to the bank, so I actually prefer a check. Though some do show up with cash because they prefer it that way, and that's ok.
> 
> But that's me. I wouldn't consider it abnormal for a breeder to ask for cash and certainly not any sort of red flag.


This is what I would think however for many this is just business. I plan to pay cash for Lulu. I paid the deposit through paypal and the rest is cash. I would have just sent the money via paypal though if the breeder hadnt volunteered to bring her to me personally. Saved me some $$$ too.


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## martinaa

A previous poster stated that sales tax does not need to be paid if the transaction is conducted with cash. That is incorrect. Payment method is irrelevant. The goods or services you obtain are either statutorily subject to sales tax or they are not.

If someone gives you a 'sales tax break' for paying cash for something it simply means that they are not going to report the sale on their sales tax return and quite possibly that they won't report the sale on the appropriate income tax return. Both of those possibilities are illegal and generally quite easy to catch if a sales or income tax audit occurs. But the chance of an audit is very low so many people like their odds anyway.


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## Kyleigh

I paid cash ... and tax!


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## qbchottu

martinaa said:


> If someone gives you a 'sales tax break' for paying cash for something it simply means that they are not going to report the sale on their sales tax return and quite possibly that they won't report the sale on the appropriate income tax return.


This is what I mean - one cannot be traced as well if you deal with cash. Hence why they are more likely waive the sales tax if you only deal with cash.


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## Sol's Amigos

PayPal for deposits and cash upon delivery of the boys here.


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## Jag

I had to pay with money orders (out of state). I honestly don't remember how I paid for previous dogs.... too long ago!


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## FlyAway

I paid cash for all my dogs. One dog was very expensive so it was a cashiers check.

There's a lot of money order fraud, so people might not that either.


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## JustJim

Paypal here; the breeder is out-of-state, and it was easier for both of us.


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## Shade

I did a electronic email transfer for the deposit and paid cash for the remaining amount


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## onyx'girl

I paid cash and the breeder was like...well we'd rather have a check, this is too tempting and it is only Saturday! We can't deposit it til Monday.


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## holland

I paid with a personal check-don't think it was certified but can't remember-I doubt it


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## robinhuerta

I prefer cash also.....we have had checks bounce in the past.
Now deposits are either cash, money order or certified bank check......final payment is cash. Contracts have "paid amount" of puppy, and are also their receipt.

VERY normal for most breeders.


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## doggiedad

my breeder didn't know me. she excepted a check for
a deposit and the final payment. she held the pup untill
untill the check cleared.



qbchottu said:


> Most, if not all, breeders ask for cash. Personal checks bounce and after you have one or two screw you over, it's better to deal with cash. You also do not need to pay your sales tax if you pay cash. Nothing out of the ordinary.
> 
> They won't let you pay by check unless they know you personally.


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## codmaster

PorkandBeans said:


> Should this be a red flag?
> 
> We met the breeder, the puppies and parents were great, the papers were in order, etc. and everything seemed ok so we put a deposit down on a puppy. I used a personal check for the deposit but the breeder is asking for cash for the remaining amount.
> 
> Does this seem strange to anyone else? I guess it's just because I never carry cash on me.


We paid by check when we picked our guy up - never thought much about it.

Asking for cash (unless some unusual circumstances) doesn't sound like it is establishing a high degree of trust!


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## Mrs.K

I deposited the money from my bankaccount into my breeders bankaccount. Did that for for all three dogs.


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## qbchottu

doggiedad said:


> my breeder didn't know me. she excepted a check for
> a deposit and the final payment. she held the pup untill
> untill the check cleared.


She held it until it was cleared. She did so to make sure you had the funds. Same as if she had asked for cash up front.


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## Gharrissc

Whenever I've purchased any animal,I have either paid with a certified bank check or cash if they were local.I don't see anything wrong with paying cash as long as you have some proof of what you paid.


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## TrickyShepherd

All my dogs were paid in cash... never really questioned it since that's how I've always felt comfortable paying for my pets. It's very common for breeders to prefer cash.


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## Candace

I'm paying cash also. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## selzer

I prefer cash, but take checks. Someday I will get ripped off. It is easy to stop payment on a check, and once they have the dog, you will have to go to court and fight about the money. Once that happens, I will probably be ok with a check for the deposit and then ask for cash for the remainder. People used to hold the papers until the check cleared, but the AKC says the papers go with the dog. So, bring cash and everyone is happy. The deposit usually happens weeks before the pups are ready to go, so by the time the pup goes home, the breeder knows whether or not the check cleared. 

I do not see it as a red flag. 

I would see it as a red flag if they waived the sales tax if you pay cash. That does make it sound like they are not going to report the sale. Shady people are rarely shady in only one circumstance. If they will cheat the government, they will cheat you.


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## Mrs.K

Wait a sec. you pay sales tax on dogs?


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## Kyleigh

Yes, I did! I got a receipt and everything ... just like I had bought "anything else" from a store


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## DJEtzel

Tax fraud is so common these days, I honestly wouldn't see it as any sort of a red flag as to the type or quality of breeder they were.


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## holland

I never paid tax-lol-at least I don't think I did


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## Chris Wild

Sales tax would only apply for in state purchases. If the buyer lives in a different state than the breeder, no sales tax would apply. Also in some states, the sale of livestock is exempt from sales tax, and in some of those dogs are viewed as livestock for tax purposes so would also be exempt. In other states, dogs are viewed as other commercial items and sales tax would apply. So whether tax should have been charged or not depends on the state's tax rules and whether the buyer lives in the same state or not. I believe some states would also have different rules for out of state purchases based on whether the buyer picked up the pup at the breeder's (thus the sale occurred in state) versus had the pup shipped.


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## EJQ

That's probably not too unusual. I'm sure every breeder has been "stung" at one time or another by a bad check. We ask that the prospective "parent" pay with a certified check - it, for all intents & purposes, is cash. This protects the breeder and the buyer as well.


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## Caledon

If I were a breeder I would want to have a secured payment, be it cash, certified cheque, direct deposit to my bank account, email money transfer, bank money order.

A personal cheque is very risky.


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## selzer

DJEtzel said:


> Tax fraud is so common these days, I honestly wouldn't see it as any sort of a red flag as to the type or quality of breeder they were.


Committing any sort of fraud says something about the person's character. It's not like being unable to pay, or behind in payments, it is a deliberate attempt to get out of paying for something that others do have to pay for by lying or cheating. If they will do that, they are probably lying or cheating about many things. They may be cutting corners in other ways. No way would I support them by buying a puppy from them.


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## DJEtzel

selzer said:


> Committing any sort of fraud says something about the person's character. It's not like being unable to pay, or behind in payments, it is a deliberate attempt to get out of paying for something that others do have to pay for by lying or cheating. If they will do that, they are probably lying or cheating about many things. They may be cutting corners in other ways. No way would I support them by buying a puppy from them.


I guess I don't agree. 

It feels like half of the people I know commit tax fraud in some way, but I know they're not cheating me out of anything or lying to me. 

A boss of mine doesn't have a payroll system, she just writes us checks as independent contractors. She told me when she gave me my first check that she wasn't taking taxes out and certainly wasn't going to tell me I had to! Said it's my own business whether or not I file. She's a sweet lady though and certainly hasn't ever that I've witnessed lie or cheat anyone out of anything.

eta; no one is perfect anymore. I don't judge people that harshly that do these sorts of things. Maybe it's the way I was raised? I don't have the most saint of parents...


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## GSD07

DJEtzel said:


> A boss of mine doesn't have a payroll system, she just writes us checks as independent contractors. She told me when she gave me my first check that she wasn't taking taxes out and certainly wasn't going to tell me I had to! Said it's my own business whether or not I file. She's a sweet lady though and certainly hasn't ever that I've witnessed lie or cheat anyone out of anything.


 Your boss is not committing any fraud, so I find this example a bit interesting. Of course, your boss doesn't have to take any taxes from the amount she pays to independent contractors. And of course the independent contractors are solely responsible to pay their taxes that's why they charge higher rates. Your sweet boss is doing everything according to the law and she's sweet enough to tell you about your responsibilities so you are not owing big bucks to IRS. If I were you I would pay because your boss certainly has her books in order, and the amount she pays to independent contractors is appropriately listed.


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## martinaa

I'm sure everyone would rather talk about their dogs then taxes or fraud, and if anyone derailed this discussion it would me. But, as an auditor (I won't say which kind ), I feel compelled to throw a couple last comments out there.

Regarding payroll tax - the IRS has very specific rules about the classification of employee vs. subcontractor. DJETzel's employer could very easily be commiting fraud and this is one the IRS really hunts for. As an employer you do not want to be caught classifying someone as a contractor when the IRS thinks they should be an employee. Ouch. They will make that one hurt. The risk to the employee is much lower. In vact it isn't unusual for disgruntled ex "contractors" to turn their former employer in to the IRS. 

Sales tax accross state lines - that gets more complicated as Chris suggested. It does not automatically mean sales tax doesn't apply and it often can mean that the responsibility for paying the sales tax transfers from the seller to the buyer. Getting caught is unlikely.


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## DJEtzel

GSD07 said:


> Your boss is not committing any fraud, so I find this example a bit interesting. Of course, your boss doesn't have to take any taxes from the amount she pays to independent contractors. And of course the independent contractors are solely responsible to pay their taxes that's why they charge higher rates. Your sweet boss is doing everything according to the law and she's sweet enough to tell you about your responsibilities so you are not owing big bucks to IRS. If I were you I would pay because your boss certainly has her books in order, and the amount she pays to independent contractors is appropriately listed.


I think you misunderstood my point. As she told me, she made the comment in a funny tone about whether or not I have to... as if to say that if I were you, I wouldn't pay, and it's your business if you don't! :apple:


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## GSD07

Oh, ok, I did misunderstand, sorry about that! 
@martinaa: great point! After observing how someone I know had to take a huge loan in order to cover IRS fees and fines and debts after an audit I take IRS rules very seriously


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## Cassidy's Mom

GSD07 said:


> Your boss is not committing any fraud, so I find this example a bit interesting. Of course, your boss doesn't have to take any taxes from the amount she pays to independent contractors. And of course the independent contractors are solely responsible to pay their taxes that's why they charge higher rates. Your sweet boss is doing everything according to the law and she's sweet enough to tell you about your responsibilities so you are not owing big bucks to IRS. If I were you I would pay because your boss certainly has her books in order, and the amount she pays to independent contractors is appropriately listed.


While it's true that she doesn't have to withhold taxes on payments to independent contractors, she DOES have to report those payments to the IRS by filing a 1099 form annually. If she's not doing that, she's committing fraud, and since she told Danielle that it's up to her whether or not _she _reports it, that sure sounds like there's no 1099. If this employer were ever audited and it was discovered that she's paying people under the table, then both she AND the people working for her could be in trouble. 

And as martinaa mentioned, you can't just say someone is an independent contractor and not an employee in order to avoid payroll taxes (and worker's compensation insurance!), there are strict guidelines that must be met. Independent Contractor Defined



> You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed.


Something as simple as having set hours determined by your boss is enough to make you an employee and not an independent contractor.


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## lhczth

Payroll taxes, independent contractors, etc are WAY off topic. If you want to discuss these start your own topic in the chat forum. Anymore comments of this nature in this thread will be removed. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa


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## Cassidy's Mom

Chris Wild said:


> *Sales tax would only apply for in state purchases.* If the buyer lives in a different state than the breeder, no sales tax would apply. Also in some states, the sale of livestock is exempt from sales tax, and in some of those dogs are viewed as livestock for tax purposes so would also be exempt. In other states, dogs are viewed as other commercial items and sales tax would apply. So whether tax should have been charged or not depends on the state's tax rules and whether the buyer lives in the same state or not. I believe some states would also have different rules for out of state purchases based on whether the buyer picked up the pup at the breeder's (thus the sale occurred in state) versus had the pup shipped.


As far as sales tax applying only on in state purchases - yes and no. If a seller was only licensed to collect sales tax in their own state, then they would not have to charge sales tax on out of state sales. But if it were considered a taxable purchase in the _buyer's_ state, _they_ would still be responsible for reporting the sale and paying the tax to their own state. Even if they failed to do so, the breeder wouldn't be liable for the sales tax because in order to charge tax on out of state sales you'd have to be licensed in each state you do business in. Obviously, nobody is going to do that. 

I don't know anything about whether or not sale tax generally applies to the sale of dogs, but I'm sure that Chris is right that laws vary from state to state. I know in the state of California the sale is determined to have occurred where the buyer takes possession, but I don't know if that's typical of other states or not. 

I work for a small business that sells all over California as well as out of state, and I prepare the quarterly sales tax returns for the company. We have at least 85 or 90 different tax districts in California, some for counties and some for cities, and we have to charge sales tax based on the district we are selling and shipping too, not where we're physically located. If we sell to an out of state company then it's up to that company to report that sale to the state they're located in and pay any applicable taxes, because we are only licensed in California. If we buy something from out of state that's not a resale item (where sales tax would not apply) and the company we buy from is not licensed to collect California sales tax, then it's our responsibility to report that sale on our quarterly return, and pay the sales tax directly to the state.


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## Liesje

I've paid for two dogs with a check but just ask the breeder beforehand. If they didn't want a check I'd be happy to get a bank check (which is basically cash without carrying all that cash around).


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## Mary Beth

I used Paypal.


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## onyx'girl

What always bugs me~ raises a red flag~ is when breeders have on a website their payment options first and formost. It seems that is the focus of the breeders program more than what they are actually selling. If I'm in communication with a breeder I'd be buying from, whatever they are most comfortable with is what I'd do.
Breeder sites that are showing the visa,mastercard, amex etc cards ~that is a big turnoff to me(not sure why, but it just is).


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## SummerwoodSoaps

For the breeders, if anyone is interested in taking credit cards there when the people pick up the puppy, the square is awesome. I use it for my non dog related business and love it. You know right away if the good and the money is deposited into your bank the next day. You can also use it for cash to give receipts. I thought I might throw that out there. 

When I got Stella I paid by check all the money upfront when she was born. If this seems like a reputable breeder in all the other ways, I'd have no problem paying cash.


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