# Look for balance



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I glanced at a couple of the searching for breeder threads. I’m noticing a common theme. Looking for low drive family dog or high drive sport. What we should be looking for and focusing on is balance. So what do I mean by balance? Well, in my humble opinion, we should be looking for breedings, that incorporate dogs with good prey, hunt, herding genetics, aggression and so on. In my experience the litters I see that have a good focus on all these components also have the dogs with the best nerve and stability. Are they usually the most over the top drivey dogs? Nope. Are they laziest couch potato dogs? Nope. They are true jack of all trades. A lot of breedings I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression. In my limited pedigree knowledge, I don’t see balance. We often talk about clarity in dogs and I see that in dogs with proper balance. So when looking at breeders, look for breeders who are active with their dogs. In lots of things. Titles in my opinion are an extremely small part of what make a dog breed worthy. The only thing a title tells you is that the breeder worked or someone anyways worked the dog. That’s a good start, but very limited in what it’s telling you about the dog. This is probably going to open a can of worms that I’m not sure I want to get into, but here it is lol.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think you make a very good point. Most potential puppy buyers just want to know how will this dog fit into their everyday lives. How are the sire and dam at home with their families and what activities do they enjoy together?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Exactly! I’m in no way saying to breed for pets, but we should know more about the dogs. I can’t tell you how many stud owners I’ve reached out to for information on the dog and they almost word for word this: “he’s an amazing dog, he scored 99,99,99 in XYZ trial and 99,99,99 in ZYX trial.”. What the heck does that tell me about the dog? NOTHING! What are his primary drives? How’s the nerve? What’s the level of sociability? What else has he done beside trial? How is he in the house? Around other dogs? Information like this is what’s needed to pair dogs appropriately. Over the last couple years, I’ve tested a decent number of dogs. It’s astounding how many titled dogs (in a number of venues) crap themselves during some of our evaluations. So great, the dog looks good on a trial field but literally poops itself in a building or on stairs. Like I said before I’m finding when I see weak nerve and inability to settle, I’m also seeing a lack of balance in the dog. So sure it’s got a ton of prey good grips (when outside), can do a sport style track and so on, but it lacks real hunt, a desire to work with handler and so on. Just so many other holes. No dog is perfect, but we should be looking for real balance and breeders who actually test their breeding stock. Just my two cents.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

ahhhhh Grasshopper - experience and observation are a wonderful thing!

I just posted a similar thought on a thread LOL

*TO QUOTE:

Sport? I have watched the working lines evolve to a "sport" dog instead of a balanced, versatile dog with both mental and physical soundness over the 22+ years I have been involved in the breed and training for breedworthiness.....I think it is detrimental to look just to breed for "sport" and too many dogs damaged and discarded by people who know little to nothing about bloodlines, structure, temperament and soundness.....This is NOT a breed of dogs designed to stay sound of mind and body while spending their lives locked up in a kennel 22+ hours a day without human interaction in order to "make" them train and score higher. The prey overtook the balance so strongly that in an effort to get behind that, aggression has been brought in without discernment...

There seem to be two types of people who are in the sport - those who do it because they enjoy working with their dogs and achieving goals, and those who have dogs purely for sport and their goals are more important than the dog....they wash out dogs who aren't going to be "National" level and keep trying - and usually, they do not understand that the relationship and their ability is what they need to go to higher levels successfully.

Wanting a "monster" sport dog has nothing to do with the dog, and only with the handler's goals.

There are tons of "sport litters" out there....the handler and management is what is going to make the dog successful. (END QUOTE)*

I have gotten flack for many of my choices throughout - from the sire of my foundation female to breeding to "non titled" dogs.......dogs who I KNEW and who had lines I used or wanted - actual professional detection dogs, SAR dogs who would hunt a section for 4 hours, a male who has phenomenal temperament, discernment, balance, herding ability with true understanding of protecting the owner from irate stock.....health checks all done - just no "title" even through close family are titled....I got flack because my pedigrees are not "full" of "known" dogs - dogs whose lines are prone to EPI, bad backs, structural unsoundness, thin nerves, handler aggression....dogs who put their handlers in hospital 3x with severe bite wounds - but get bred over and over and over because "they win" (and I am quoting a well known breeder judge who showed me the scars)....

Breeders missed out on a terrific male who never got to show his stuff at a high level because it was not possible - a total outcross to the popular lines, a dog whose progeny love kids, has sired certified SAR and narcotic dogs who are actually working in the real world (his littermate produced a professional detection dog who has competed in sport tracking on the 
World level in 21 and will again in 22), IPO3 dogs...who got a 100 in tracking after not being tracked for 18 months except for 3 article tracks as a reminder right before trial...who was "too much dog" in protection for his senior handicapped owner...who last week at 10 years old, searched a field for 45 minutes looking for a big green ball dropped by the youngster that had ended up rolling partway down a wooded hill while I just watched and said "find the ball" a few times...they ignored him because he did not have "big names" in his pedigree.....the loss was to the breed. People expressed interest, but were afraid because pups would have been "hard to sell", the few who braved it had females with pyo history and other issues and he only had a few litters...I had buyers waiting for all the pups he would have produced! US breeders do NOT seem to care to understand pedigrees, do not seem to care to produce balance....they just import pups/dogs with "big names", breed to dogs owned and promoted by competitors who BOUGHT the dog as a young adult and do well in trials....

It just does not work like that.


Lee


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Even though I was looking for companion, family / pet GSDs, I still sought out working line puppies with medium drives that had solid nerves, were clear headed and had an off switch. 

Even if you don't plan to seriously compete, why get a GSD that cannot compete? Why get a GSD if you don't want what the breed should be? 

Sure you have to put in the work to bond, exercise and train but you'll end up with the best possible companion. Loyal, can chill in the house, ready and wanting join you for any adventure.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

People ask for low drive because they do not understand that "energy" is not drive. The inability to settle is not drive. That is NERVE. If the dog is balanced and has good nerve, there is no issue.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> People ask for low drive because they do not understand that "energy" is not drive. The inability to settle is not drive. That is NERVE. If the dog is balanced and has good nerve, there is no issue.


Nods. Same in the other direction as well “I want a high drive dog that can go on hikes and stuff” 👀


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Have seen this in the horse world, too. Young, dedicated students that couldn't afford an expensive horse doing amazing things with non-pedigree grade horses others wouldn't have looked at twice. It was all because of the bond they shared, and the work they were willing to put into it, to bring out the horse's natural talent.

My riding instructor's daughter reached the junior international level riding a horse his owner had GIVEN away to the school because he became unmanageable. This was probably because the owner didn't have the time for him, and he spent most of his days cooped up in his stall. (He was NOT particularly good with other horses, so not a candidate for turnout.)

Once retired from the show ring, he became one of the school's most reliable beginner's horses, often going out for 3 or 4 lessons a day. If he was stabled for more than a couple of days, you'd have a firecracker on your hands, though!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Exactly! I’m in no way saying to breed for pets, but we should know more about the dogs. I can’t tell you how many stud owners I’ve reached out to for information on the dog and they almost word for word this: “he’s an amazing dog, he scored 99,99,99 in XYZ trial and 99,99,99 in ZYX trial.”. What the heck does that tell me about the dog? NOTHING! What are his primary drives? How’s the nerve? What’s the level of sociability? What else has he done beside trial? How is he in the house? Around other dogs? Information like this is what’s needed to pair dogs appropriately. Over the last couple years, I’ve tested a decent number of dogs. It’s astounding how many titled dogs (in a number of venues) crap themselves during some of our evaluations. So great, the dog looks good on a trial field but literally poops itself in a building or on stairs. Like I said before I’m finding when I see weak nerve and inability to settle, I’m also seeing a lack of balance in the dog. So sure it’s got a ton of prey good grips (when outside), can do a sport style track and so on, but it lacks real hunt, a desire to work with handler and so on. Just so many other holes. No dog is perfect, but we should be looking for real balance and breeders who actually test their breeding stock. Just my two cents.


Exactly what I keep saying! People keep saying "just a pet". 
A pet is the most important job any dog will ever have. They need to cope with day to day life. Children, guests, moving, schedule changes. They need to be your child's guardian, your teens adventure pal, your beer in the shop buddy and your wife's confidant. They need to be all things to all people. 
The top sport dog that shows well on the field and falls apart at a baseball game isn't a top dog, it's a dog that had a great trainer and handler.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes to all. What I love about a good balanced GSD, is they’re like chameleons. They just blend in to whatever we are doing. That’s a good dog! I recently had to leave town for a week. My mom passed away and I needed to leave on very short notice, so I had a young trainer who used to work for me stay at my house to take care of my dogs. She knows my dogs, but had really only ever seen them work. She’s learning decoy work, so I’ve used Kimber a lot to help teach her. She’s actually taken a live bite from Kimber(it was a timing error, not intentional) and knows Kimber as being a very serious working dog. The first thing she said to me when I got home was how much she loved her. She said Kimber just cuddled up with her, and did what ever she did. The trainer had said that if she didn’t know Kimber did protection work she would have never guessed it. Kimber is a dog I 100% trust as my PPD. Yet is so stable I take her everywhere, she can hang out with kids, spend the day with me at a beer garden, and helps me daily with client dogs. Those are the things that matter to me. I’m lucky in that Estelle is showing those same qualities. But again, it’s a balance. Estelle usually hangs with me on the couch but we just got home from police dog training where she was doing building searches in a sketchy old 1928 movie theater. Yet again, she’ll go do a 15 mile mountain bike ride with me and my friends, run around while we try some dirt bike skills, and gets along or ignores other dogs. I love it! And as Jax said, too many people confuse energy with drive. They are very different.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sorry about your mom


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> Sorry about your mom


Thank you! It wasn’t ideal. Never is I guess.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Unfortunately I think environmentals are a huge problem. I have seen dogs from stellar pedigrees that lose it over walking near a shiny floor. Dogs like this can't work in any real capacity.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

rotdocpa1 said:


> Unfortunately I think environmentals are a huge problem. I have seen dogs from stellar pedigrees that lose it over walking near a shiny floor. Dogs like this can't work in any real capacity.


100%. But that’s what I’m talking about. I’ve personally noticed a direct correlation between dogs with a truly balanced pedigree and a better nerve strength to include environmentals. When I see pedigrees that are focused say on high prey/point dogs, I see a lack of nerve strength. Not saying it’s a conclusive study or that you’re not going to have outliers, but I’ll take my chances with the balanced pedigree and dogs.

This was my training location today. 1928 movie theater converted into a concert hall. This place is creepy and has endless scenarios to run. I’ve tested tons of dogs here. Some of which look great on a field but have literally pooped themselves once they step foot in here. This picture is just the main theater. There is upstairs, the lobby, basement with false walls, back stage and so on.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> 100%. But that’s what I’m talking about. I’ve personally noticed a direct correlation between dogs with a truly balanced pedigree and a better nerve strength to include environmentals. When I see pedigrees that are focused say on high prey/point dogs, I see a lack of nerve strength. Not saying it’s a conclusive study or that you’re not going to have outliers, but I’ll take my chances with the balanced pedigree and dogs.
> 
> This was my training location today. 1928 movie theater converted into a concert hall. This place is creepy and has endless scenarios to run. I’ve tested tons of dogs here. Some of which look great on a field but have literally pooped themselves once they step foot in here. This picture is just the main theater. There is upstairs, the lobby, basement with false walls, back stage and so on.
> View attachment 586262


The first venue we took dogs to for testing was an old school. Slick floors, blind corners, leaky ceilings, strange smells, echo echo echo through the halls. The first test, other than entering the building, was a stranger walking by the dog. 

Almost no titled dogs passed these first 2 tests. Nerves are critical to working a dog. 

Then there was the problem of not being willing to get away from the handler. Too much control work and e-collar stuff.

IPO titles, today, have nothing to do with the GSD as a working dog. They can certainly do both but a SCH, IPO, IPG title is not an indicator that a dog is the real deal. 

I'd take a KNPV dog to the sandbox. I've seen some fantastic dogs with ring titles as well.

What good is bite work when the dog is freaked out by environmental circumstances? Give me the dog standing on the ramp of a CH47 during the flight and it's nose hits the ground before the ramp does. 

In my military career, I've had 163 explosives finds, 12 bites including 4 tracks and I've lived with the dogs for 17520 hours. What's more important? Crazy good grips and over the top drive or work ethic and handler focus?

The only formal obedience, found in a trial, I ask of a working dog is down and recall. I don't really care if they will out. I want s dog that wants to do whatever I'm doing.

While I totally appreciate the work that goes into putting a title on a dog, I think that life with the dog is far more important. I owe a good life to the dog and in response, the dog owes me the idea that they want to be a productive part of that life.

I have what I consider a good dog. He's 2 and we haven't done any bite work other than some flirt pole stuff when he was young to see where he was at. He can run around a campground full of running, screaming kids without worry. He is confident, but sometimes over excited, in all situations. He's still young and DDR/Czech, so I expect that. He's just a nice dog with guts and a lot of character. 

I don't understand how the divide between sport and working dogs happened. I was used to Dutch GSDs, with some WGWL thrown in, but primarily European dogs targeted to the military market. Then I got exposed to some sport bred dogs, with big pedigrees, and I was pretty shocked at the difference in temperament. So much prey drive with no nerves to control it. Like a drunk mal with bad nerves.

All that to say that I appreciate your viewpoint @mycobraracr and I wish everyone could have the experience of a good GSD in their lives.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> The first venue we took dogs to for testing was an old school. Slick floors, blind corners, leaky ceilings, strange smells, echo echo echo through the halls. The first test, other than entering the building, was a stranger walking by the dog.
> 
> Almost no titled dogs passed these first 2 tests. Nerves are critical to working a dog.
> 
> ...


Here you go David. This is a super top secret video of Estelle lol. The first part she’s was 7 or 8 months old. At K9 training there was a cool search scenario, so I ran her through it. Obviously she’s immature in the work but she worked it out nice. The rest of the video is her out of drive exploring that theater. She’s about 4 months in that part. This is how I like to test dogs environmental. We’ve seen sooo many dogs fail this. Dogs from all kinds of backgrounds and sports. I also added a picture of Estelle’s current position lol.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Here you go David. This is a super top secret video of Estelle lol. The first part she’s was 7 or 8 months old. At K9 training there was a cool search scenario, so I ran her through it. Obviously she’s immature in the work but she worked it out nice. The rest of the video is her out of drive exploring that theater. She’s about 4 months in that part. This is how I like to test dogs environmental. We’ve seen sooo many dogs fail this. Dogs from all kinds of backgrounds and sports. I also added a picture of Estelle’s current position lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well that put a big smile on my face 

She looks great. At ease in a strange environment. Handler focus. Agile and confident in movement. Comfortable in the work and happy to be there with you. 

There really is no replacement for genetics. You can help a weak dog to become a little better and manage the rest. Or you can just not screw up a good dog and give them some good leadership.

Nice dog. She's a chip off the old block.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Well that put a big smile on my face
> 
> She looks great. At ease in a strange environment. Handler focus. Agile and confident in movement. Comfortable in the work and happy to be there with you.
> 
> ...


Thanks! This is a clip of her 10mo doing some bite work. I’m going super slow with her. With Kimber I went fast. Kimber had 9 titles by 2-1/2. I don’t really care to do that again lol. So I’m just having fun with Estelle.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

That video of you and your pup at the theatre is giving off strong I am Legends vibes, or at least what it should have been.

edited. 

I remember having a hard time finding an adult WL GSD that would be "safe" around children a while back. We had an inhome childcare monday-friday. It was pretty much insinuated that it wasn't really possible for a working line/ a "high quality" GSD bred for "work" to be safe around children. But the dogs I inquired about were 3-5 year old dogs that had their basic OB or Sch 1 and were marketed toward families with children.

Then I found this website many years later. I've been reading all the old posts and saw that dogs like Kimber, Fama or Sabi, were safe around children despite the fact that they're very intense dogs that worked. I cannot tell you how shocked I was reading these old posts. 

We don't do childcare anymore but since I live near a children's park I thought getting a WL dog would be impossible. It's good to know that a "balanced" dog is what I should be looking for + lots of training.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Pierre Wahlstrom is with the Swedish military and gave a really good interview on this in July 2021. He talks about how bad their initial GS stock was 16 years ago when he started in the breeding program (around the 27 min mark) and also parses nerves vs recovery, DAMs role in pup rearing to a sufficient point, etc..which I think is missing sometimes. It's long but if you're bored here it is:


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## Scottie B (Dec 4, 2020)

A patrol dog is not a sport dog!! If you want protection- Buy a gun!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Scottie B said:


> A patrol dog is not a sport dog!! If you want protection- Buy a gun!


How is this relevant to the post? The post is about finding balance in dogs, better nerve strength and so on.

Dogs can have a lot of advantages over guns for protection. That being said there is no end all be all for protection, and people who take it seriously usually have multiple layers set up to give them the best options.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Thanks! This is a clip of her 10mo doing some bite work. I’m going super slow with her. With Kimber I went fast. Kimber had 9 titles by 2-1/2. I don’t really care to do that again lol. So I’m just having fun with Estelle.


Haha... That was close 

She looks nice and clear. I think slow is best, and particular training to the individual dog. I see a lot of conflict in young dogs that wouldn't be there with some patience. A really hard dog can take it but I think it's more fun to let the dog enjoy the work and grow into themselves instead of trying to force anything.

She gets quiet when she thinks she's going to get a bite. It shows her goal and state of mind. She's not just triggered by the motion and sound and losing her mind. She wants the bite. She spit the sweatshirt and went back to the decoy. Big difference.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Scottie B said:


> A patrol dog is not a sport dog!! If you want protection- Buy a gun!


Guns don't have the huge benefit of threat detection that a dog does. They can see and smell someone with bad intent. Whether or not the dog is expected to bite the threat, the ability to identify a threat is where a dog stands above us humans.

It's also very hard for a threat to effectively fight the handler of a PPD while they are wearing a dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I look for the traits that will help the dog fit into my lifestyle and my goals. There’s a lot of factors in that. It comes down to more than just prey drive. Take for instance when I got Cion. I lived in an apartment in Downtown San Diego. That’s a city of 3 million people basically, and I lived in the center of it. I didn’t want to deal with a dog who didn’t like stairs, was afraid of people, hated other dogs, broke down in elevators, panicked on different surfaces or environments. I didn’t want a dog that I couldn’t take with me to get coffee and sit at a cafe. I needed my dog to function in a variety of environments and around a variety of stimuli. I didn’t want a dog that broke down when a trash truck drive by or they were jackhammering outside. The dog had to handle random people from kids to grown men randomly coming up to them and touching them. He had to handle passing countless reactive dogs blowing up on a regular basis, sometimes in incredibly close vicinity. My dogs live in my house with me. They aren’t kenneled when I’m home. There’s always other considerations that go into it other than working ability.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Bearshandler said:


> I look for the traits that will help the dog fit into my lifestyle and my goals. There’s a lot of factors in that. It comes down to more than just prey drive. Take for instance when I got Cion. I lived in an apartment in Downtown San Diego. That’s a city of 3 million people basically, and I lived in the center of it. I didn’t want to deal with a dog who didn’t like stairs, was afraid of people, hated other dogs, broke down in elevators, panicked on different surfaces or environments. I didn’t want a dog that I couldn’t take with me to get coffee and sit at a cafe. I needed my dog to function in a variety of environments and around a variety of stimuli. I didn’t want a dog that broke down when a trash truck drive by or they were jackhammering outside. The dog had to handle random people from kids to grown men randomly coming up to them and touching them. He had to handle passing countless reactive dogs blowing up on a regular basis, sometimes in incredibly close vicinity. My dogs live in my house with me. They aren’t kenneled when I’m home. There’s always other considerations that go into it other than working ability.


I agree 100%.

This video is from one of our group classes. We got one of the local craft breweries to open upearly and let us do class there. Once they officially opened a lot of us stuck around to enjoy a beer or two and relax. Kimber is just hanging out. A couple of our police dogs are there too. It’s great to be able to do stuff. Kimber was visited by a family with two younger boys who were Infatuated with her. So they hung out with her just loving on her. That’s the balance I want in my dogs.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Scottie B said:


> A patrol dog is not a sport dog!! If you want protection- Buy a gun!


Or train self-defense, because there's nothing worse than fighting over a weapon you pull when it's being taken away from you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Over the top ANYTHING is not useful. It's just simply not. To much prey? They lock up. To much possession? It's a fight to get anything away from them so hard to get reps in. They slap their feet on the articles cuz...MINE! I found it! To much aggression? It often stems from nerve that causes suspicion. To much causes the dogs to not be clear headed and they can't think. It's just not useful in any venue. The only thing I want to see to much of is GOOD HEALTH.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

From what I heard about being lost in the breed over the years, it is a **** shame.

I think people get too obsessed with titles and scoring things quantatively. It's like people that think they want a certain thing in a partner - they miss out on so many other wonderful things.

Sports are cool but more as something to do with your dog, I think.

We love our dog. He is our first dog. He is cool and quirky. He is incredible with kids and around our family - we have a baby on the way and he will be wonderful. He is patient and extremely fair with other dogs, even the ones that are in his face. He is great offleash, comes quickly when called and heels past other dogs. He is fit and we drive him hours to get to new spots where he can run around and go on hikes. We take him to sport. We get off on feeding him wild bones and deer trachea and guts and organs. He took a whip to the face in IGP as a puppy and didn't even flinch. He doesn't love random slippery floors but then, that's not necessary for him.. but he's fine with the slippery floors in our house. He makes us look like good owners, that's for sure. It's a good life 😂

Sorry I wanted to share.


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## TAPAL2017 (May 21, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Guns don't have the huge benefit of threat detection that a dog does. They can see and smell someone with bad intent. Whether or not the dog is expected to bite the threat, the ability to identify a threat is where a dog stands above us humans.
> 
> It's also very hard for a threat to effectively fight the handler of a PPD while they are wearing a dog.


well said --- also hard to recall that bullet if sent or for it to differentiate between a threat and not.... said more towards innocent bystander walking into situation ...

So what are you favorite dogs currently breeding that are bringing this "balance" forward today?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

TAPAL2017 said:


> well said --- also hard to recall that bullet if sent or for it to differentiate between a threat and not.... said more towards innocent bystander walking into situation ...
> 
> So what are you favorite dogs currently breeding that are bringing this "balance" forward today?


My favorite breeding dogs?

I know less about pedigrees than brain surgery. 

I spent a lot of time training green dogs from Europe. I have no idea what dogs are in those breeding programs. I have never went down the rabbit hole of pedigrees. I know a few people to ask and that's good enough for me.

When I want a dog, I go to a breeder I trust that breeds dogs I like.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I’m green, but yes to this thread!! I have always wanted a GSD, so when I thought of getting a gsd, I started reading and not a lot of what I read was what I traditionally remember of the breed, or would of hoped to find.. the sketchyness the anxiousness, chase anything that moves.. then I read further and got on the trail of a breeder I thought aligned with what I liked and how I viewed the breed, with an emphasis on many things mentioned above like balance, confidence, natural abilities not just one sport. Here is my 4 1/2 month pup today, first pic she’s chilling in a busy hardware store while someone burns rope for me, the next she’s chasing down a bumper in a field full throttle. Then we did some OB beside (never in) a busy dog park, she looked over but never broke what I was asking her to do. I try to expose her to lots of different environments and she has yet to seem rattled, always curious & confident.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Bearshandler said:


> I look for the traits that will help the dog fit into my lifestyle and my goals.


Same. I had a fairly extensive checklist of requirements, probably somewhat different than what many other people are looking for. In my sport, dogs have to be able to keep their heads and do their job in a very loud and chaotic environment with 7 other off leash high drive dogs and at least a dozen people in the ring at the same time, plus a lot of people and other dogs outside the ring. It's.......a lot. The dogs are usually barking and the people are running and yelling. They need to be able focus with all that distraction going on. It's not like other sports that GSDs typically compete in, lol. So I needed the working drive but also confidence, athleticism, environmental stability, mental and emotional resilience, fairly high thresholds, lower suspicion, and a high level of sociability. Our dogs are handled extensively by our teammates in training so I need a dog I can hand off to another person to restrain for a recall, maybe someone they've never met before, and know that it won't shy away or try to bite if their collar is grabbed. 

There was a tournament last weekend, our club entered 3 teams of dogs. Two of the teams ended up in the same division on Sunday so we had to race ourselves twice. Some people had a dog on each team and obviously they couldn't run them both at the same time so we had to borrow handlers from other clubs for those races. On Saturday we were down two teammates but we had their 3 dogs and other teammates had to run them all day. Cava's team kicked butt - they placed first in their division both days, winning 20 of 24 heats on Saturday and 21 of 24 on Sunday. She ran all but one heat clean on Saturday and two on Sunday, but one of those was due to boxloader error so it wasn't her fault. This was just her second tournament racing full time after her debut in October and she racked up over 2100 points over the weekend, earning her 5th title. There aren't a lot of GSDs in flyball, usually she's the only one at tournaments in my region, which is kind of fun. It was the same when I raced Halo. It's nice being able to show off the versatility of a good GSD, especially since they're not a breed frequently associated with flyball.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Same. I had a fairly extensive checklist of requirements, probably somewhat different than what many other people are looking for. In my sport, dogs have to be able to keep their heads and do their job in a very loud and chaotic environment with 7 other off leash high drive dogs and at least a dozen people in the ring at the same time, plus a lot of people and other dogs outside the ring. It's.......a lot. The dogs are usually barking and the people are running and yelling. They need to be able focus with all that distraction going on. It's not like other sports that GSDs typically compete in, lol. So I needed the working drive but also confidence, athleticism, environmental stability, mental and emotional resilience, fairly high thresholds, lower suspicion, and a high level of sociability. Our dogs are handled extensively by our teammates in training so I need a dog I can hand off to another person to restrain for a recall, maybe someone they've never met before, and know that it won't shy away or try to bite if their collar is grabbed.
> 
> There was a tournament last weekend, our club entered 3 teams of dogs. Two of the teams ended up in the same division on Sunday so we had to race ourselves twice. Some people had a dog on each team and obviously they couldn't run them both at the same time so we had to borrow handlers from other clubs for those races. On Saturday we were down two teammates but we had their 3 dogs and other teammates had to run them all day. Cava's team kicked butt - they placed first in their division both days, winning 20 of 24 heats on Saturday and 21 of 24 on Sunday. She ran all but one heat clean on Saturday and two on Sunday, but one of those was due to boxloader error so it wasn't her fault. This was just her second tournament racing full time after her debut in October and she racked up over 2100 points over the weekend, earning her 5th title. There aren't a lot of GSDs in flyball, usually she's the only one at tournaments in my region, which is kind of fun. It was the same when I raced Halo. It's nice being able to show off the versatility of a good GSD, especially since they're not a breed frequently associated with flyball.


Oh my gosh yes. Your flyball tournaments are insanely chaotic. So much going on all at once and the dogs needing to stay focused. It’s impressive to watch for sure.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> She ran all but one heat clean on Saturday and two on Sunday, but one of those was due to boxloader error so it wasn't her fault. This was just her second tournament racing full time after her debut in October and she racked up over 2100 points over the weekend, earning her 5th title.


Good girl! 
People discount things like flyball and agility. They have no idea what some of those tournaments are like. I had a friend who was on an agility team. I went with her a few times to different venues and they were INSANE! The stability and focus required of the dogs is top level.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I feel also it is a specific dog inheriting all the best qualities -the luck of the draw as well as the opportunities the dog has to grow in addition to a good breeding program - which there are no guarantees but sustainable goals are needed for balance but there will be a range of what a pup gets. Stability is though key as so is balance especially in a certain busy and active social home with kids . My dog’s go many places and I have been taking them to work. They are a blessing. Max keeps us laughing he is the life of the party type personality. Both dogs will give us their all and it certainly above average. I can even begin to talk about all that we unplanned encounters at the beaches during the season or any outings. The dogs are really solid it’s why I put them on a pedestal is how they handle all of it.

Over the weekend walking through the neighborhood a off leash dog charged us as my daughter snd I were walking by the property. My daughter was walking Max on a 6 foot leash completely loose and I was waking Luna. The dog came right up to me and Luna and Luna did get a bit excited until I figured it out - when the dog who was charting approaches and stopped short inches away deciding not to come any closer. Max just looked once unconcerned saw I had it all covered and kept going with my daughter loose leash and all. Both dogs alerted to fire the neighbor set. Will keep intruders away especially Max, They will most certainly go down in my book of the greatest dogs and the book is awfully big.

__
http://instagr.am/p/CcaVVjluESg/


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## Scottie B (Dec 4, 2020)

mycobraracr said:


> How is this relevant to the post? The post is about finding balance in dogs, better nerve strength and so on.
> 
> Dogs can have a lot of advantages over guns for protection. That being said there is no end all be all for protection, and people who take it seriously usually have multiple layers set up to give them the best options.


Oh, it's extremely relevant.

"I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression." "How is this relevant to the post?" Really? Stability? Your post has tremendous importance across many venues. But your avatar has a fur saver, a flat collar, and a muzzle? Are you serious? Your dog is so out of control you need a muzzle? That dog of yours would not be allowed to "work" a scene And you talk about balance? I'm, the only one on this entire thread to even questioned it, makes me question the character of those one here. Just a bunch oh, yes folks! I'm just some no name, in the background. But I have been exposed to a variance of dog worlds many will never see!

?? Your Avatar literally has a muzzle on it's head !! Clearly must be a very balanced dog, great with kids and little dogs too! It's so balanced that no one is in danger, but it's mouth must not be accessible. It's extremely relevant. Your post " They are true jack of all trades. A lot of breeding's I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression. Really? Don't **** talk the sport breeding folks! The individuals you mention are literally trying to create the next podium dog based on the current atmosphere. Thats exactly what breeders are expected to do! Unfortunately, super high drive creates flashy dogs they might not be "stable". Let's have this conversation out right. You want, what? Stable? In what exactly? Tracking? Protection?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Scottie B said:


> Oh, it's extremely relevant.
> 
> "I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression." "How is this relevant to the post?" Really? Stability? Your post has tremendous importance across many venues. But your avatar has a fur saver, a flat collar, and a muzzle? Are you serious? Your dog is so out of control you need a muzzle? That dog of yours would not be allowed to "work" a scene And you talk about balance? I'm, the only one on this entire thread to even questioned it, makes me question the character of those one here. Just a bunch oh, yes folks! I'm just some no name, in the background. But I have been exposed to a variance of dog worlds many will never see!
> 
> ?? Your Avatar literally has a muzzle on it's head !! Clearly must be a very balanced dog, great with kids and little dogs too! It's so balanced that no one is in danger, but it's mouth must not be accessible. It's extremely relevant. Your post " They are true jack of all trades. A lot of breeding's I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression. Really? Don't **** talk the sport breeding folks! The individuals you mention are literally trying to create the next podium dog based on the current atmosphere. Thats exactly what breeders are expected to do! Unfortunately, super high drive creates flashy dogs they might not be "stable". Let's have this conversation out right. You want, what? Stable? In what exactly? Tracking? Protection? O


You… clearly have zero clue who you’re talking to, and it’s quite baffling. I suggest you apologize and move on from this thread. I think you’re in over your head in this discussion.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Scottie B said:


> Oh, it's extremely relevant.
> 
> "I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression." "How is this relevant to the post?" Really? Stability? Your post has tremendous importance across many venues. But your avatar has a fur saver, a flat collar, and a muzzle? Are you serious? Your dog is so out of control you need a muzzle? That dog of yours would not be allowed to "work" a scene And you talk about balance? I'm, the only one on this entire thread to even questioned it, makes me question the character of those one here. Just a bunch oh, yes folks! I'm just some no name, in the background. But I have been exposed to a variance of dog worlds many will never see!
> 
> ?? Your Avatar literally has a muzzle on it's head !! Clearly must be a very balanced dog, great with kids and little dogs too! It's so balanced that no one is in danger, but it's mouth must not be accessible. It's extremely relevant. Your post " They are true jack of all trades. A lot of breeding's I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression. Really? Don't **** talk the sport breeding folks! The individuals you mention are literally trying to create the next podium dog based on the current atmosphere. Thats exactly what breeders are expected to do! Unfortunately, super high drive creates flashy dogs they might not be "stable". Let's have this conversation out right. You want, what? Stable? In what exactly? Tracking? Protection? O


Your assuming to know the reason for a muzzle in the picture. While training at a facility that specialize in training police K9 dog. Muzzle conditioning and acceptance training was regularly done. So was continued practice. So that an injured dog could be examined and worked on without worry that pain response would result in a bite.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

also, …bad guys don’t wear bite suits.


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## gonzales (12 mo ago)

Scottie B said:


> Oh, it's extremely relevant.
> 
> "I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression." "How is this relevant to the post?" Really? Stability? Your post has tremendous importance across many venues. But your avatar has a fur saver, a flat collar, and a muzzle? Are you serious? Your dog is so out of control you need a muzzle? That dog of yours would not be allowed to "work" a scene And you talk about balance? I'm, the only one on this entire thread to even questioned it, makes me question the character of those one here. Just a bunch oh, yes folks! I'm just some no name, in the background. But I have been exposed to a variance of dog worlds many will never see!
> 
> ?? Your Avatar literally has a muzzle on it's head !! Clearly must be a very balanced dog, great with kids and little dogs too! It's so balanced that no one is in danger, but it's mouth must not be accessible. It's extremely relevant. Your post " They are true jack of all trades. A lot of breeding's I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression. Really? Don't **** talk the sport breeding folks! The individuals you mention are literally trying to create the next podium dog based on the current atmosphere. Thats exactly what breeders are expected to do! Unfortunately, super high drive creates flashy dogs they might not be "stable". Let's have this conversation out right. You want, what? Stable? In what exactly? Tracking? Protection?


LOL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow. So that's what Hangry looks like in text.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Wow. So that's what Hangry looks like in text.


We all have bad days we need to vent and what better way than on an anonymous forum?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Scottie B said:


> Oh, it's extremely relevant.
> 
> "I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression." "How is this relevant to the post?" Really? Stability? Your post has tremendous importance across many venues. But your avatar has a fur saver, a flat collar, and a muzzle? Are you serious? Your dog is so out of control you need a muzzle? That dog of yours would not be allowed to "work" a scene And you talk about balance? I'm, the only one on this entire thread to even questioned it, makes me question the character of those one here. Just a bunch oh, yes folks! I'm just some no name, in the background. But I have been exposed to a variance of dog worlds many will never see!
> 
> ?? Your Avatar literally has a muzzle on it's head !! Clearly must be a very balanced dog, great with kids and little dogs too! It's so balanced that no one is in danger, but it's mouth must not be accessible. It's extremely relevant. Your post " They are true jack of all trades. A lot of breeding's I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression. Really? Don't **** talk the sport breeding folks! *The individuals you mention are literally trying to create the next podium dog based on the current atmosphere. Thats exactly what breeders are expected to do!* Unfortunately, super high drive creates flashy dogs they might not be "stable". Let's have this conversation out right. *You want, what? Stable? In what exactly? Tracking? Protection?*


Breeders are supposed to preserve the breed, as it was developed. Not create something different based on their desire for accolades. 
I want stable in all things, in all areas of life. 

Also, @mycobraracr isn't that the lovely, and accomplished, Lady Kimber in your avatar?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Dog getting ready to work, just coming off a CH47. She had 2 bites, including a track to a bite, and 4 explosives finds this fine morning.









Same dog hanging out with a friend's Chihuahua.









Again, same dog playing house with my 5yo granddaughter.









Aggression is part of the breed standard and it's necessary for the work. Balanced drives combined with nerve strength give you a dog that can do pretty much anything with the proper training and handling. There are some very experienced trainers on this thread, not just keyboard warriors. I've trained a couple hundred military dogs, and every single one is muzzle trained for a lot of reasons, one being muzzle training in protection to see how the dog acts with no visible equipment on the decoy.


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## Scottie B (Dec 4, 2020)

Pytheis said:


> You… clearly have zero clue who you’re talking to, and it’s quite baffling. I suggest you apologize and move on from this thread. I think you’re in over your head in this discussion.


You are correct in that I don't know the individual who started this thread. I will take your suggestion and offer my apologies to anyone I have offended; it was not my intent.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

@Sabis mom my avatar is actually or Heidi. She was training to be the first dog to ever achieve the Protection Dog Muzzle title. She wasn’t the first.

@Scottie B, no offense taken. This is the dog world. I get told almost daily I don’t know what I’m talking about even though I keep getting asked and teaching classes/seminars all over. Yes, balance. Not breeding for sport or to get on podiums. But breeding for a versatile clear minded dog that can adapt to various situations. A jack of all trades. As David had mentioned, active aggression is a key part of that (reason for the B&H in SchH). The pictures I’m attaching are all of the same dog (Kimber). She’s also wearing a muzzle in some of these . She was third dog in the country to pass the muzzle title.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Just to add more to balance. One of my favorite text chains while Kimber was staying with a friend for the day lol. 
















More random pictures.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> @Sabis mom my avatar is actually or Heidi. She was training to be the first dog to ever achieve the Protection Dog Muzzle title. She wasn’t the first.


Ha! I was wrong. But I still got you to post awesome pics of Kimber!


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## Al Pozzolini (Aug 13, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> I glanced at a couple of the searching for breeder threads. I’m noticing a common theme. Looking for low drive family dog or high drive sport. What we should be looking for and focusing on is balance. So what do I mean by balance? Well, in my humble opinion, we should be looking for breedings, that incorporate dogs with good prey, hunt, herding genetics, aggression and so on. In my experience the litters I see that have a good focus on all these components also have the dogs with the best nerve and stability. Are they usually the most over the top drivey dogs? Nope. Are they laziest couch potato dogs? Nope. They are true jack of all trades. A lot of breedings I see especially from the sport world are really focusing on prey and aggression. In my limited pedigree knowledge, I don’t see balance. We often talk about clarity in dogs and I see that in dogs with proper balance. So when looking at breeders, look for breeders who are active with their dogs. In lots of things. Titles in my opinion are an extremely small part of what make a dog breed worthy. The only thing a title tells you is that the breeder worked or someone anyways worked the dog. That’s a good start, but very limited in what it’s telling you about the dog. This is probably going to open a can of worms that I’m not sure I want to get into, but here it is lol.


I agree.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> Ha! I was wrong. But I still got you to post awesome pics of Kimber!


Haha you got me! As if I needed help talking about Kimber  She truly is the best! Even to this day she impresses me. She’s my number one! There are no words to describe what she means to me, and not just because she is a good worker. It all comes down to balance. She can help me with client dogs. No matter aggression case, insecure dogs, puppies, she knows how to help them all. She can always adapt to what’s ever is needed at any given time. She is what we should be striving for to breed. I’m fortunate that she comes from a strong female line who seems to produce themselves. Estelle, is growing up to be very similar. So hopefully she will be my next Kimber. Or as close as she can be to her grandma .


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Haha you got me! As if I needed help talking about Kimber  She truly is the best! Even to this day she impresses me. She’s my number one! There are no words to describe what she means to me, and not just because she is a good worker. It all comes down to balance. She can help me with client dogs. No matter aggression case, insecure dogs, puppies, she knows how to help them all. She can always adapt to what’s ever is needed at any given time. She is what we should be striving for to breed. I’m fortunate that she comes from a strong female line who seems to produce themselves. Estelle, is growing up to be very similar. So hopefully she will be my next Kimber. Or as close as she can be to her grandma .


Had you kept breeding my next puppy would have come from you. I was bummed that I couldn't make the timing work. I love hearing about Kimber, she is one in a million! I miss the updates on Areli (and the Bjorn videos!) and look forward to seeing Estelle in future adventures. 
Keep doing awesome stuff!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> Had you kept breeding my next puppy would have come from you. I was bummed that I couldn't make the timing work. I love hearing about Kimber, she is one in a million! I miss the updates on Areli (and the Bjorn videos!) and look forward to seeing Estelle in future adventures.
> Keep doing awesome stuff!


Pending health clearances, I’ll breed Estelle. I’m really happy with her. Still some time to tell, but she’s so stable, social and balanced. So my plan is to have her as my next breeding female.

Areli is the only dog out of 30+ dogs that I’ve ever regretted selling. That’s why I bought Estelle. I seriously didn’t even know who the male was. I just said I want one 🤣. Estelle has not disappointed one bit. Plus Estelle and Kimber are two peas is a pod. So that’s a great sign to me.

Bjorn is a Dual purpose police k9 now. Bolt is a K9 with the ATF. It’s crazy how these dogs have grown up.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I knew you didn't want to part with Areli. I wish I had been able to buy her, but it worked out because I would never have trialed or bred her. I miss seeing her updates though.
Tough to picture sweet little Bjorn as a police dog! Lol. 
You bred some great dogs that are a credit to the breed, and don't worry I will be watching Estelle.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

mycobraracr said:


> Pending health clearances, I’ll breed Estelle. I’m really happy with her. Still some time to tell, but she’s so stable, social and balanced. So my plan is to have her as my next breeding female.
> 
> Areli is the only dog out of 30+ dogs that I’ve ever regretted selling. That’s why I bought Estelle. I seriously didn’t even know who the male was. I just said I want one 🤣. Estelle has not disappointed one bit. Plus Estelle and Kimber are two peas is a pod. So that’s a great sign to me.
> 
> Bjorn is a Dual purpose police k9 now. Bolt is a K9 with the ATF. It’s crazy how these dogs have grown up.


It’s great to hear about your dogs. Thanks for the update on the B boys, always happy to know what they’re up to.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> Pending health clearances, I’ll breed Estelle. I’m really happy with her. Still some time to tell, but she’s so stable, social and balanced. So my plan is to have her as my next breeding female.
> 
> Areli is the only dog out of 30+ dogs that I’ve ever regretted selling. That’s why I bought Estelle. I seriously didn’t even know who the male was. I just said I want one 🤣. Estelle has not disappointed one bit. Plus Estelle and Kimber are two peas is a pod. So that’s a great sign to me.
> 
> Bjorn is a Dual purpose police k9 now. Bolt is a K9 with the ATF. It’s crazy how these dogs have grown up.


dare i ask if estelle is also taking after kimber in size??


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

@mycobraracr Your dogs are so awesome! I’ve read some of your older threads and have seen videos of them working, they’re great! Estelle looks to be turning out to be a great dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Fodder said:


> dare i ask if estelle is also taking after kimber in size??


She looks to be about the same. I haven’t measured her, but when she’s next to Kimber they’re pretty close. Kimber in shape was 23” and 62lbs. I weighed Estelle last week and at 12 months old she’s 60lbs about the same height. So she will probably top out around 65ish. Estelle has more bone than Kimber. When they’re wrestling around, I can’t tell who’s who haha.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> She looks to be about the same. I haven’t measured her, but when she’s next to Kimber they’re pretty close. Kimber in shape was 23” and 62lbs. I weighed Estelle last week and at 12 months old she’s 60lbs about the same height. So she will probably top out around 65ish. Estelle has more bone than Kimber. When they’re wrestling around, I can’t tell who’s who haha.


Girl power!

I love a really strong female. They are just special. The boys are knuckleheads that will fight anything just for fun, but the strong girls are rare and they hold a place in my heart.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

^^^^ these posts above by @David Winners and @mycobraracr should be somewhere in the breed requirements


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