# Thought was fear reactive, guess not........



## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Storm our 2 yr old male is reactive to certain dogs. Seems to be real wirey or very happy dogs. He has a bubble I guess. I would like him to learn dogs are not going to hurt him. Not sure if he thinks they are or the prey drive kicks in ???

He is fine with certain ones & others he will go off.

Just not sure if I dealing with it correctly ?

Will pop the collar when he does this & say, leave it or no. Or if I see the focus in his eyes, will just walk away. I crindge of the thought of greeting other dogs. He is a big boy, scares people. 

I thought he was just scared since he hasn't been dog socialized a ton. Trainer says, no fear, he is meaning business. Ears are up, eyes focused, & then the lunge, & sound he makes.

Just would like any input on getting him better at meeting/greeting new dogs.

He has came along way though since I first had problems with him just seeing a dog from a far on a walk. He would bark & go off just seeing a dog. We're past that. He has even been off lead around dogs on a walk 1 or 2 times & did ok.

With people, he meets a greets fine. Aloof & no tail wag, but seems fine with adults/children out in public.

At home, he can be a bully at times. Sometimes he will be ok & as the person goes to leave, he watches & then might run at them & make a bark. I tell him NO, but feel I need to walk people in & out.

He is such a good boy & a love bug. Going through a 2 yr old phase ? Male thing ?

Thanks for any advice...........


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The book _Control Unleashed_ by Leslie McDevitt is excellent for dog reactive help. There are also CU classes at some OB schools based on the book. Targeting and redirection, clicker training and go to your place are some of the techniques. Google it for more info. 
Popping the collar may make him more reactive when he is already focused. He may see the correction as a reason to react. I would just re-direct his attention or block his vision, ignore his bad behavoir&remove him when he is in the stare zone. Reading his body, eyes(which you are doing) is so important in distracting him before he goes off. Give him treats and praise him when he re-directs. The book has a lesson on "look at that" give treats when he looks at the dog, then re-directs his focus back to you. It shows that the other dog is no big deal. Timing is crucial on this, it is hard to do sometimes when both hands are busy keeping a lunging dog under control! But click, treat, click, treat, click,treat, is a constant theme in the redirection. Storms age probably has alot to do with it, IMO. Is he intact?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

aggressive with dogs, barking at people leaving the house. start socializing him with dogs and people. retraining. what does your trainer say? is your trainer working on these problem areas?

i don't think it's a 2 yr. old phase or a male thing.i think it's a socializing and training thing.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

No he is not intact.

We do socialize him. He goes to work with me, in 2 dog classes right now. Has taken dog classes in the past, goes bye~bye to the petstore, etc. . I haven't done this much with a dog in my life. More with him than our female. She is somewhat aloof, but not reactive at all.

He doesn't bark & bark at people leaving. Will when someone comes, they all do. There's 3 to mess with. I will most of the time just crate them. In this case, have people feed treats to them through the crate when coming. I have been letting them out & they get the sniff down & it seems ok. Just Storm will get a burr in his butt & try to bully, has done this when a few people go to leave. I just walk them to the door now. Does this only at home.

I just have never let them play off lead with dogs & they haven't been around dogs much, just in classes & on a few walks.

Dogs want to come greet him, will pull forward to him & he goes holly crap & does his lunge thing. He has a bubble & might not be able to greet certain new dogs, but hoped I could help him.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

BTW, trainer says, GSDs have bubbles & don't like others in their space. Up to us to keep between our dog & the other, stay in front of your dogs head, protect them. Trainer is for Agility & Rally. She knows dogs well, owns many & has been into them 25 + yrs.

I understand what shes says, but also would like that dog that just meet & greet without any issues. She says, not a Golden or a Lab here.

Just think if I always seem to keep him away, he won't learn. 

In class, the dogs he sees weekly & knows, he fines. Goes & sniffs, has had a Golden run right at him while laying down & walked on him, no problem. It's faced to face while in front of me & a dogs coming at him, not good.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs
> I thought he was just scared since he hasn't been dog socialized a ton. Trainer says, no fear, he is meaning business. Ears are up, eyes focused, & then the lunge, & sound he makes.


I have a dog who is reactive around other dogs, mostly while he is on leash. My dog also looks like he means business, with the same physical characteristics that you noted in your dog. Even with that "look", he is still reacting in a fearful manner. He is not a submissive dog, so his fear isn't going to have the ears down, tail tucked look of a submissive dog. Maybe the same is true with your guy? 
It sure would make life easier if they could just tell us what they are thinking/feeling! 
Sheilah


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs
> ...


Yes, would be great IF we only knew what their brains were thinking. I see him saying or think he's thinking, holly crap & then reacts. Just the real wirey, lots of energy dogs scare him. 

Is it possible to have a fear reactive dog, not show submission ?


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I have a fear reactive dog. And her displays are much like your boy's. Ears are up, commissure is pulled forward, hackles are raised, and she makes eye contact. She too has a space bubble and is not comfortable with other dogs getting too close. Risa is basically afraid of other dogs. Her confidence around them is pretty low despite having played with other dogs in our obedience classes and having two doggie friends.

I too would recommend ditching the prong collar. It can do more harm than good in cases of fearful or reactive dogs. Some dogs begin to associate the pinch caused by the collar with seeing other dogs which only heightens their anxiety. If you feel you need to have extra control when your dog lunges, I'd recommend something like the Easy-Walk harness. That's what I use with Risa. I feel more in control with it as I have ahold of her body mass (chest) and I don't worry about her hurting herself if she lunges.

There is no quick and easy fix for this, unfortunately. Your best bet is a lot of desensitization. Start associating other dogs with positive things. Bring treats with you on walks. If you see another dog, before your dog gets over threshold and reacts, start feeding him treats. If he starts to focus on the other dog too much (and it sounds to me like you are very good at reading his intentions so I don't think you'll have a problem there







) then I would recommend turning and walking away. 

On the occasions where your dog ends up over threshold (despite your best efforts), I would just turn and walk away. Put as much distance between you and the other dog as you can. Once your dog is calm again, continue the walk. Usually, after Risa ends up over threshold and I walk her away, I ask her for a sit. When she complies (I do not make her sit, I just wait until she does after I cue her to do so), I slowly stroke down her back. I do this to flatten her hackles and put her in a more calm state of mind. Then we continue on our way.

It's a long process but it does pay off.







I've been feeding Risa treats while we pass other dogs for 2-3 months now and we're getting to the point that I don't need to give as many treats or be as worried about her lunging after another dog. Just this week she locked eyes on another dog while we were walking. I just spun in a circle and gave her treats for staying with me. If she locked on again, I spun around again. Even when she locked eyes within 6 feet of the other dog all I had to do was spin in place once and she reconnected with me to get her treats as we passed the dog.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Jamie,
Thanks much for the tips/advice !







Trainer says, not fear, but I think different. He is a sissy boy, but can mean business when he wants. I feel all show. He is the least dominate in our pack & get the humps from our rescue boy even though Storm is the biggest dog we own. I know size doesn't matter & yes, Shadow gets yelled at IF caught humping.

Storm is just afraid I truely feel. Most of the time we have no problems out or in class. It's just them real pushy, big, wirey, bounds of energy type dogs that are mostly out in the public ( Pet stores) that come at him & the owner thinks all dogs can like one other. Storm wants no part of it most of the time. In the case where we all know each other & most of all them dogs behave, no problems. 

Last night a new dog with owner came into class after us & he was real focused, I should have walked away, but I knew the person so, stayed in place & thought he would greet this dog ok. Nope, after the dog got in the door, came at us, he did the lunge/sound/ & in this dogs face. Couldn't tell if he grabbed him, but the other dog didn't make a sound so, I don't think so. It was a cockerpoo & a happy go lucky dog. I don't see the hackles up, just mainly the stare & lunge/sound.

I know there is no perfect dog, but hoped like heck to battle the boys issues. Shadow the rescue freaks at other dogs also, mainly all excitement ! He freaks when he hear the jingle of dog tags ! Starts to whine & whale at the top of his lungs & dart/pull/etc towards the dog. IDK here what he's thinking & way harder to take him in public. I know I must. 

So, the fear reactive boy Storm is easier out IMO, but I would love them both to be able to be CALM around other dogs.

Sable our female, don't care about other dogs & blows them off.

Thanks much


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs
> Storm is just afraid I truely feel. Most of the time we have no problems out or in class. It's just them real pushy, big, wirey, bounds of energy type dogs that are mostly out in the public ( Pet stores) that come at him & the owner thinks all dogs can like one other. Storm wants no part of it most of the time. In the case where we all know each other & most of all them dogs behave, no problems.


Sounds exactly like Risa. She's getting better about being around other dogs in general. But other reactive dogs (whether fear-based or excitement-based) really seem to set her off more. In general dogs who don't have space bubbles tend to set off dogs who DO have space bubbles. Most retrievers fit into the former category with herding breeds in the latter. If I see one of those 'pushy' dogs, I keep my distance with Risa. I know she'll tell them off for being rude and then we look bad.







Lately she's been better about ignoring other dogs on walks even if they're coming towards her as we pass. Sometimes she'll give a nervous glance over her shoulder but that's the worst she's done lately. 

It's hard to know what our dogs' motivations are. For a long time I was trying to deal with Ris' reactivity without understanding the reasoning behind it. Once I finally realized it was fear, my training method changed and we started to see more progress. It's a tough call. Some dogs are reactive out of excitement in seeing other dogs/people (sounds like your boy Shadow). Whereas others are putting on an offensive display in the hopes that the other dog stays far far away. It's hard to fix the problem when you don't know the underlying cause.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs
> Is it possible to have a fear reactive dog, not show submission ?


Absolutely! I think that is why so many people mistake fearful reactivity with being "protective". Submission is not the same as fear, and it looks different because it is different. You can have a fearful-submissive dog and you can have a fearful-dominant dog.
Sheilah


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## graciesmom (Jun 10, 2006)

"Whereas others are putting on an offensive display in the hopes that the other dog stays far far away." This is Gracie's MO to a tee when she gets scared. First few times I took her to the dog park, she announced her arrival to all as if to say "I'm here and I'm scared of everbody so keep your distance, okay?" Now that she's more comfortable at the dog park, basically because she knows the people and the dogs, she doesn't do this. But take her to a new situation and she's back to barking at everyone and everything.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

I asked the trainer last night, if this was fear ? She said, no........his ears aren't back & his tail isn't tucked like he was scared. I didn't think of that ! His focus is forward, ears up, & get somewhat nervous. She said, he means business. I than thought, is he very dog aggressive then ???? I don't feel so IMO, b/c don't always do this. He is worse in a inside (pet store) situation, small in there & maybe he feels trapped. If a dog is in a isle, we go down another, to tight to past.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

The sad fact is that not all "dog trainers" are competent. Just because a dog is not showing signs of submissive fear does not mean that their behavior is not fearful. We have several Petsmarts and Petcos in Boise and they all offer training classes. Some of the trainers are really good, and know their stuff. Other trainers, employed by the same store, are idiots who have no idea what they are doing. I am sorry, but getting a "training diploma" issued to someone by a store that employs them does not make them a trainer
I would think you and your dog would be better served in a class with a trainer who actually knows what they are doing. 
If your dog is fearful, avoiding other dogs is the last thing you want to do. But flooding your dog with the fearful object is not the way to go, either, which is why a good, experienced trainer with a real understanding of behavior is your best bet. Ask what training they have, and is it verified or certified by an independent organization. What is their hands-on experience?
Sheilah


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

in your original post you said your dog charges the door and barks at people. here you say he doesn't. i've known dogs that charge you when you go to leave. that's not good. you also say your dog barks when someone comes", they all do". that's normal. we have clients that come to our house. my GF didn't want our dog barking at people coming in. so we taught him not to bark at the door. i don't particularly like this but it's better in my case. my point is not all dogs bark at the door.

you said your trainer says GSD's have a bubble and they don't like others in their face and we have to keep between them and the others. well, i don't know about that. when i'm at GSD shows there's hundreds of Sheps in close proximity. i've never witnessed a problem. this bubble your trainer is talking about don't all dogs have a bubble? does a bubble mean a limit?

how's your training coming along? are you making any progress in the areas you mentioned? is your trainers method helping you? i'm starting to fade here. good luck.


> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSsNo he is not intact.
> 
> We do socialize him. He goes to work with me, in 2 dog classes right now. Has taken dog classes in the past, goes bye~bye to the petstore, etc. . I haven't done this much with a dog in my life. More with him than our female. She is somewhat aloof, but not reactive at all.
> 
> ...


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I'm no expert, but you can't always judge based on the dog's outward appearance. If you were to see Risa being reactive, most people would think she's dog aggressive. She lunges towards, barks, shows her teeth, her ears are perked, her hackles are raised, her tail is up, her commissure is pulled forward. It's a very offensive look. She isn't hiding behind me. (Though, with our recent work, she's taken to acting more nervous and edgy around other dogs rather than reactive.)

I've seen Risa behave around other dogs. And she's anything but confident. When she meets a new dog, her ears are pulled back and she's very stiff. She will exchange some sniffs with the dog and then she's done. Interaction over. There are very few dogs she is comfortable with enough to instigate play.

Risa meeting dogs (she's the funny-looking mutt in the purple collar). Note her ears are pressed against her head:
















This GSD she is comfortable with, and you can tell. She is much more relaxed. Her ears are back, but they're not tight against her head:








And she is NOT okay with the advances of this poodle and is showing obvious signs of discomfort, stress, and fear (hackles raised, all her weight is placed back, her tail is tucked, her back in hunched, and her ears are pressed tightly against her head). She's also off-leash and knows she can get away (which is exactly what she tried to do):









Dogs also act differently when they're on-lead versus off. They know they can't get away when they're leashed and so many dogs are only reactive when leashed (leash-reactive). Risa is much less comfortable around other dogs in closed-in spaces and when she's leashed.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadin your original post you said your dog charges the door and barks at people. here you say he doesn't. i've known dogs that charge you when you go to leave. that's not good. you also say your dog barks when someone comes", they all do". that's normal. we have clients that come to our house. my GF didn't want our dog barking at people coming in. so we taught him not to bark at the door. i don't particularly like this but it's better in my case. my point is not all dogs bark at the door.
> 
> you said your trainer says GSD's have a bubble and they don't like others in their face and we have to keep between them and the others. well, i don't know about that. when i'm at GSD shows there's hundreds of Sheps in close proximity. i've never witnessed a problem. this bubble your trainer is talking about don't all dogs have a bubble? does a bubble mean a limit?
> 
> ...


I have worked with a couple trainers at PS & both have dog exper. & have always been around dogs. Have been trainers elsewhere.

This trainer now is a obed, rally, & agility trainer. She has 10 dogs herself & has had dogs her whole life. She deals with all the bad cases around & has done the cell dog program at the shelter. I feel there's no better IMO.

Just not sure about her saying, it's not fear. I was thinking it was.

He in like 4 cases has went up to people leaving if I'm not walking with them & tried IMO to bully them. Not mean barking, he doesn't do that. Just a quick sneak & a light 1 bark. Just getting their attention. He is great with people on lead out. Aloof to certain ones though.

Yes, all 3 bark when a car comes, mailman, etc is outside. I jump right up to see & tell them all quite. If I put them in their crate & someone comes in & they bark, the squirt bottle comes out. They are being a dog, barking to warn, I investigate.

The bubble is with some dogs, some have a space bubble & some don't. Storm does & she tells me I must protect him & just stay in between him & another dog (stay in front of his head). This does help & yes the methods I have used & info she has taught me, we have came along way !

I just must face that this is something he might never get over & wished that he would as this issue is the only thing making him look mean when out in public, he reacts to a dog & people think holly sh%t.


Just trying to ask, learn, & understand what his issue is........







Most of the time, I know it was me, I'm trying to get better at relaxing.................


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I understand how you feel. There are days I've wanted to just pack up and leave town. It's not an easy problem to handle.

If it helps, I've found the following books to be incredibly useful:

<u>Scaredy Dog</u> by Ali Brown
<u>Focus, Not Fear</u> by Ali Brown
<u>Control Unleashed</u> by Leslie McDevitt
<u>Cautious Canine</u> by Patricia McConnell
<u>Fiesty Fido</u> by Patricia McConnell
<u>Fight!</u> by Jean Donaldson (I haven't read this one yet but a friend with a fear-reactive dog recommended it and it's on my desk to read soon.)

Even if you are comfortable with your trainer, it never hurts to get a second opinion or other ideas to try.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Jamie,
Thanks very much on sharing the books. I guess we are both in the same boat & I know more than us deal with this. At least I take him with him out & about & most people just leave their dogs at home. I will continue to try & help him.

Your pics did help seeing Risa's body language.
I wonder if he's like this b/c he wasn't dog socialized or played with other dogs ? We live out in the country & they rarely see dogs. We never had a PS around where you could take your dog, no dog parks, & didn't belong to a dog group till this last yr of dog people that understand 1 another.

Our female is more confindent (sp?) & even though she hasn't been around dogs, don't react to them. She just cares less about them.

You have helped me just reading your replies her & a big hug/thanks to you !

I will try to find & read these books. I'm not good about finding time to read ! If I just bought & read 1 for now, which would be best ????

Thanks again...........


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

If you had to pick just one, I would probably go with <u>Scaredy Dog</u>. It was sort of a 'lightbulb' book for me. The others are GREAT too and I would highly recommend you get them (even if just from the library).

Lack of socialization can certainly cause fearfulness. Risa is a rescue and I'm fairly certain she spent her first 2.5 years of life in someone's backyard.







I've done the best I can in the 2.5 years I've had her to try and get her more confident (around people, dogs, in new places, etc.). Some dogs are just naturally shy/fearful too. Without knowing a dog's history, it's sometimes hard to pinpoint it. Treating it is pretty much the same no matter what the origin. Though whether it's environmental or genetic can determine how much better it will get. 

We are certainly not alone. There are TONS of reactive dogs out there. I think once you have a reactive dog, you see them more too. I can sympathize with them even if their dog is setting mine off.









I'm glad I could be of some help.


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## tlbjet (Jan 23, 2009)

Sounds a lot like my boy. He is about the same age. He has been to the dog park almost everyday since he was 3 months old. He's had 4 Obedience Courses and obeys well. We started agility and he show some fear with the tunnel and the teeter but jumps anything with enthusiasm. Recently, 6 Border Collies joined our class and he is ballistic! Last class, he went after one before I even had my coat off. He just can't seem to stand the high energy bouncing around and barking. I think we are going to have to give up the class. I was a wreck by the time it was over. I couldn't pay attention to the instructor because I couldn't take my eyes off of my dog. We saw a professional this week, he said there a definite fear issues, even though he doesn't look fearful. He felt that "Bear" is not confident that I can handle the situation so he feels he needs to try and scare off the threat. He feels I need to take a stronger Alpha position to increase his confidence in me. We're working on it. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

1975,
Welcome here !







This is a great fourm with lots of great info ! Nice to see another from OH.







What part of OH ?

Yes, I feel our boy feels the same way. Feels he need to protect himself when a dog comes at him & that I won't maybe. I must keep showing him, I'm in control & will see he's safe.

He's just a big boy, I'm smaller, & when he acts out, I think people are unsure if I can handle him. I hold my own, but he is very strong !

I decided since it was nice out today for a change & the darting Beagle is now gone from up the road (RIP), we would take a walk here on our road & by 2 Rotts in a e-fence & heard they can get out, (didn't know that till today after walking by them & another neighbor told me they do get out ! WHAT.......I don't need that !) They didn't TG, we walked by, they went off barking, barking, & I heard growls..... Storm got nervous, full alert, watched them, pulled on the lead, but NO barking back at them 1 time, didn't see his hackles up, & we went on by ! Scary................He did good & feel he can get better at passing by there. 

He does focus on them (dogs) & pulls towards somewhat, but no sound, growl or lunging. I want to get his focus. Not there 100%. I tried giving him treats as we walked by, helped some. Not sure if I should tell him when he zeros in, to LEAVE IT, NO, or what, don't want him to think a dog is bad then. Any suggestions ? 

Tried a bookstore local today on Scardy Dog & out of print, the can't order so, will have to find online..........


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## tlbjet (Jan 23, 2009)

We live in Columbus. I took Bear to the park yesterday. He doesn't like puppies for some reason so of course, the first dog we see is a puppy. I stepped in front of him, so I was facing him and told him to leave it. He growl at the puppy and tried to see around me but I wouldn't let him. He was fine as soon as they got past us. We met up with 8-10 other dogs (all off lead) and he was fine. I wish he'd be that good at school. We'll see how our outing goes today. We are meeting a friend of my husband from high school (he hasn't seen this guy in 35 years) at a park with his dog. It won't be good if Bear tries to eat his dog! Later.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Oh cool, we are about 1 hr east of Columbus. Hope all went ok. No dog parks around here. We have 3 GSDs.









So, it is ok to tell your dog when all focused on another DOG, to leave it or no ? Didn't want him to think the dog = bad or something.

Wasn't sure if we should say them words or just say, come, lets go, etc ? More + approach ?


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Ris' command when we walk past other dogs is 'with me.' I didn't bother with 'leave it' or 'no.' I just use stuff that has a more positive, upbeat meaning since it makes it a bit harder to say it in an upset manner. Sometimes I say 'c'mon' or 'let's go' but mainly it's 'with me.' I think it's also important to give the command BEFORE your dog is tense and locked on. You want to stop them before they get over threshold. I usually start asking for Ris' focus a while before she actually sees the other dog. It's much more difficult to get their attention once they're riled up.


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## tlbjet (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm trying to watch his body language. If he just looks interested, I let him go. If he has that intense stare with his ruff up and tail high, then I tell him to "leave it". He met 6-8 new dogs today at the park with no problems. We are also being a lot more strict at home. He has to sit and stay before he gets is food. I leave through the door first, try to give commands only once-not let him get away with the little things. I'm hoping that type of thing will give him more confidence in us. It's hard because we both tend to spoil him but that may have created the problem. He is acting differently with us. When he was afraid of a larger dog today he came and stood by me and actually leaned into my leg for the first time. He didn't lunge out at the bigger dog.


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## tlbjet (Jan 23, 2009)

Where are you, east of Columbus? My husband grew up in Cambridge.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Between Columbus & Cambridge, Z-ville


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