# Outdoor dogs/attack by wildlife/training w/a stick



## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

<span style="color: #999999">First of all dont worry, my dogs are very happy outside, we built them winter homes with insulation... </span>

Is there a way to teach them to poop in a certain area outside, not just anywhere on the lawn? theyre 13 weeks old


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

I wouldn't leave 13 week old puppies outside for 5 minutes alone much less most/all of the day. Way too much outside in the big scary world they can get into and get harmed/killed by.

Though yes, it is possible to teach a dog to potty in one spot. You'd have to watch the dogs though (Which means no leaving them outside) and take them out yourself when they need to go and take them to that spot and give a command word. (ie. "go potty") Eventually they'll learn thats where they go when they gotta go. A dog who's left outside on his own though will go where he pleases and wont catch on because he wont be told where it's acceptable to go each and every time he needs to.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

Agreed


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

ryt, you might want to go to the Intro Section and Intro youself. You don't ahve to give us an axact location, but you might want to put some info in your Profile. This is an International Board, so temps vary greatly.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain area*

You can do some things to help, like to set the dog houses and the food dishes as far apart from the place you want them to poop as possible. They 're clean by nature and don't want to do their busyness next to the places they sleep and eat.

But the truth is, if they are outdoor 24/7 the only way is to get a tent and sleep outside with them. That way, every time they need to poo you pick them and take them to the place you want them to do until it becomes an habit. How much does it take for them to learn depends in how consistent you are, if they are allowed to go only there, 100% of times, they can learn in a week. If you're able to catch them one every other time, but the rest of the time they do where they want, it will take forever.


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

Thanx,
they're in kennels right now it will be another month before they will move to the dog house. And I never leave them alone together because they like to fight. also, this is in a national forest, so other people are not a problem


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

How clean are they in their kennel? 

Are they going to have separate dog houses and runs outside?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain area*

ryt, why are you forced to keep your young puppies outside? All of us have either heard why this is a bad idea, or done it so know it's a bad idea, so I'm sure we'll try to pass those experiences.

Actually, if they are too overwhelming to keep in the house and train, you may want to call the breeder and ask if they will take at least one of the puppies back so you will have the time to train the other (do you just have 2 or more?).

Here's some sites with other info about why it's not good for the puppies to keep them outside:

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/outside_dogs.htm

http://www.unchainyourdog.org/news/OutsideDogs.htm

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/outdoor.html

I've had friends who get puppies and think that it's kind of like getting fish, once you buy the tank (caged area outside) and the fish (your puppies) and the food............ you just put everything together, feed them and water them a couple times a day. Watch them to make sure they are ok, then go on with the rest of their otherwise extremely busy lives.

And it's only when the pups are around 6 months to a year old that they start finding out that puppies aren't really like fish at all and need TONS more time and commitment (really more like children...).

I'm guessing these must be your first GSD puppies by the following comment:



> Quote:they like to fight


13 week old puppies (unless there is something tragically wrong their temperments and you need to get them back to the breeder...) don't fight. They only play and wrestle. It's not only normal but NECESSARY for normal growth, exercise and socialization. 

Frankly, good breeders won't sell 2 puppies to any of us at the same time cause it's not good for the puppies and too hard for most of us. Here's info about that:

http://leerburg.com/2dogs.htm

http://www.gsdhelpline.com/2pups.htm


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerHow clean are they in their kennel?


quite messy in the morning, but we're trying harder now, I read here that they can't be potty trained before 14 weeks old



> Quote:Are they going to have separate dog houses and runs outside?


yes, 2 seperate dog houses so they can't reach each other when unatended. I think I will place houses together, with center of the tieout chain away so they can't tangle up around the house while at the same time can be closer together in case of some animal comes by, bears should be asleep in another month, and in the spring I don't think bears will want to be anywhere near here any more...

dog houses will be much better then anything on the market - I really liked the ones we saw at lowes for $118 each, but my dad didn't like them we ended up buying materials for ~$260 instead to do it the right way ourselves.... it will be special out door boards on the outside, insulation in the middle, followed by another layer of plywood inside... galvanized steal roof... we're thinking *hanging strips of carpet for doors? but maybe they will chew those off? hmmm*


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain area*

rytisss,

Why did you change your screenname? Which account would you like deleted? We are only allowed one on this site, otherwise we all get so confused...

Other posts are here for those who need to keep up...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=761102&page=1


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain area*

You are going to CHAIN the dogs to houses and leave them to live outside? That is the absolute worst way to keep a dog. If that is how you plan to keep them, both of these dogs have long, miserable, lonely and dangerous lives ahead of them. I feel quite sorry for these pups.

If they must be outside dogs instead of family members as a GSD ought to be, please at least set them up with kennels, not chains, and put the dog houses in their kennels. They will be MUCH safer, happier and more secure if kenneled that they will be on chains. 

Better yet, rehome these puppies because this living situation is not appropriate for them. If you must have outside dogs for any reason, select a breed that was created to live this sort of lifestyle and can be comfortable with it. I would recommend one of the nordic or livestock guardian breeds. NOT GSDs. And please kennel these outside dogs, do not chain them!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: rytI don't think bears will want to be anywhere near here any more...


I'll bet you'll find quite the opposite. Dogs are no match for a bear. Especially chained dogs who are essentially defenseless.

I expect you'll come home one day to find a hungry bear has taken you up on your nice offer of tasty bear snacks tied up in the yard.


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain area*



> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeryt, why are you forced to keep your young puppies outside? All of us have either heard why this is a bad idea, or done it so know it's a bad idea, so I'm sure we'll try to pass those experiences.
> Actually, if they are too overwhelming to keep in the house and train, you may want to call the breeder and ask if they will <span style="color: #FF0000">take at least one of the puppies back</span> so you will have the time to train the other (do you just have 2 or more?).


Hi Maggie, first of all I believe dogs are outside animals more then humans; I saw how they sleep in the cold as opposed to inside, they love the fresh air.

Right after we bought them about 5 weeks ago I posted a message on this forum asking for advice on keeping two, and people started suggesting we sell one or both of pups because we're in for a lot of trouble... (my user name was rytisss; forgot pw, cant login)
anyway, we were so saddened for about 2 weeks thinking which one should we get rid of... then did some more reading from the external links and found out that it is possible, and for the last 3 weeks we realised that there is nothing to it.....
Also we did some reading here about how some people try to get their ears up with duct tape and cardboard and glue and what not, anyway, both our pup ears are up, and their behavior is getting better by the day.... so while I am all ears to any advice, negative advice like getting rid of them I will just ignore thank you









We only have those two puppies and no other animals besides fish.



> Quote: I've had friends who get puppies and think that it's kind of like getting <span style="color: #FF0000">fish, once you buy the tank </span>(caged area outside) and the fish (your puppies) and the food............ you just put everything together, feed them and water them a couple times a day. Watch them to make sure they are ok, then go on with the rest of their otherwise extremely busy lives.


hahahaha, what a coincidence! yeps, I got fish 265 galon is my biggest tank right now, but when we will reconstruct part of the house, I will build a 1000 galon one.... I am a total pro when it comes to fish, bred discus, and succesfully kept them without a single change of water for 6 months at a time, with my dad only feeding them... if you know about discus you know that is an accomplishment...anyway...



> Quote: And it's only when the pups are around 6 months to a year old that they start finding out that puppies aren't really like fish at all and need TONS more <span style="color: #FF0000">time and commitment </span>(really more like children...)


We got that. you're right, and don't forget space: most people do not have space, they walk their dogs in the city streets, while I don't want to insult, tell me whose dogs will be happier, city dogs or my dogs when we can go for a walk in the forest with them every day???? I think you know the answer.



> Quote: I'm guessing these must be your first GSD puppies by the following comment:
> 
> 
> 
> > Quote:they like to fight


Yep, my first dogs since I was about 8. (im 34 now) and it looks like Im doing a great job training them so far...



> Quote: 13 week old puppies don't fight. They only play and wrestle. It's not only normal but NECESSARY for normal growth, exercise and socialization.


Play, you're right... how often should I let them play is another question we have, we let for about 10 minutes couple times a day, usually after they play with us first....



> Quote: Frankly, good breeders won't sell 2 puppies to any of us at the same time cause it's not good for the puppies and too hard for most of us. Here's info about that:
> 
> http://leerburg.com/2dogs.htm


read that link 6 weeks ago then followed a link from that site which explained how.... we're not like 'most' people our business is on the property and we don't have many other close friends, so theyre our best friends


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: rytI don't think bears will want to be anywhere near here any more...
> ...


I gave that some thought, and rest assured if that should happen, I would not be buying any more meat in the market, I would be a full time bear hunter... but 1. bears will be sleeping in another month and 2. in the spring our pups will be ~9 months, and if you think at that age a bear will want to mess with 2 of them, you're wrong.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain area*

Ditto what Chris said.
Also, dogs do like to be outside, but they are also social animals. They live prefer to live in a pack (human or dog) and spent most of their time with them. Tying them separate and away from you is the exact opposite. 
My dogs love the outside. When we go to our cottage, which is on an island that is not inhabited, they can run free. Guess where they are, sitting at the door wanting to be inside with us or for us to go outside. 
And they are city dogs. They are very happy. We go for frequent walks in the woods. They have a fenced in area to play in our backyard and get to sleep in their bed or on the couch every night.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

Myth, puppies can be potty trained before 14 weeks, *IF* you have them in the house and work with them and train them.

GSD's do not do well on chains. These are intelligent pups that will grow into intelligent dogs. Left tied up out in the yard, they will still fight with each other even though they can't reach each other. 13 week old pups tied outside are fair game for stray dogs, wildlife including coyotes, full grown fox, full grown raccoon who will want to steal their food and then there are the wonderful little stinky skunks who are notorious for carrying rabies, oh and the bear you mentioned.

Now if the pups do survive, they will be running at the end of their chains trying to get at each other to play as pups, but as they grow the game will become serious. GSD's are not dogs that do well staked out in a yard. They are not junk yard dogs. To entertain themselves they will invent neat games like digging holes, chewing on the dog house, tipping the food and water over, barking at birds, and just barking because they want to be with their family.

All I can say is this is just so wrong on so many levels. 

Val


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

You are wrong about the bears....

I know people who live in area's with bear, they have large dogs and at certain times of the year the bears hang out of the front lawn. So their dogs can only go out supervised in an industrail strength 12 ft high chain link fence with the owner having a gun in hand. 

What good is a freezer full of bear meat after it kills your dog. You going to eat something that ate you dog, I am sure the dog would be impressed.

Val


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## JenniferH (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

I'm in no way a GSD expert and have only one dog so I ask this question very innocently: 

Why cant the pups play with each other throughout the day? I would think if they are outside they should at least have the company of each other when their human isnt around...Is it a bonding thing?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: ryt in the spring our pups will be ~9 months, and if you think at that age a bear will want to mess with 2 of them, you're wrong.


No, I seriously doubt I am wrong.

A bear will mess with ADULT dogs, especially if they are captive on chains, much less 9 half grown, 9 month old adolescents. 

Coyotes have been known to attack and kill adult large dogs left outside unsupervised or chained. And they're a lot smaller, weaker, more skittish and less bold than bears.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

ryt, I respect you for coming here to ask questions and your willingness to learn. It just seems like a lot of these problems will be easier to deal with (or avoided completely) if the dogs are kept inside or with you. It's not hard to potty train dogs and even train them to only use a certain part of the yard, or pee on command, but if they are left outside all the time I can't even imagine trying to house train them, let alone train which part of the yard they should use. If they were with you, you would set a routine of when you take them out. Take them to the area of the yard you want them to use, then kind of ignore them. As soon as they go, praise them, give them lots of affection and maybe even treats, let them play with you a bit before going in (so they figure out that going potty OUTSIDE in the right part of the yard gets them rewards).

Tie-outs for long periods of time are just not a good idea for many more reasons than potty training. If they need to be outdoors, building them runs would be a better idea. Tie-outs are illegal in some parts of the country.

It sounds like you love these dogs and are committed to them, but I have to ask, what was your reason for getting two puppies if they have to be tied out on chains all the time and can't even play for more than 10 minutes at a time?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain area*



> Quote:I don't want to insult, tell me whose dogs will be happier, city dogs or my dogs when we can go for a walk in the forest with them every day???? I think you know the answer.


My dogs have 2 acres completely fenced to play in. In fact, they are out there right now. 

Guess what they are doing ... waiting at the fence for me to either bring them back into the house so we can hang on the couch and watch another movie or go out there and play with them.

A dog will be happier if they can BE with their humans as much as possible.

If you gave my dogs the choice of either running through the woods for an hour or two and then being chained up away from me OR getting a short walk and then coming into the house to hang with me - I *KNOW* which one they would choose.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain area*

It's true. You could even experiment-let them try living in the house with you (as well as being out with you when you are out) and see if you notice the differences. 

We are not a bunch with a selection of particularly freaky, clingy dogs. Although one of mine is particularly clingy-she's my barnacle and she's not even a GSD.









Our dogs are of a wide variety-GSDs of working, show, BYB lines, mixes and other breeds. One thing in common-they want to be with their people, with the smells of their people, with the sounds of their people. 

I also try to be the best friend of my dogs as you said you are. I am in the yard with them right now and if I got up to go in...there would be a rush to the door. When I am in the kitchen and they are outside, they are at the door, trying to see in. It's a waste of my time to send them out without me. And when we are in the house-all of us together-a big pack, they are aware of and mostly







stick to house rules of behavior-and still have a great time. Try it-you will LOVE having them with you and vice versa. 

I think Liesje's question is key-why?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: ryt
> We got that. you're right, and don't forget space: most people do not have space, they walk their dogs in the city streets, while I don't want to insult, tell me whose dogs will be happier, city dogs or my dogs when we can go for a walk in the forest with them every day???? I think you know the answer.


My city dogs in their 6000 sq foot lot know the answer. Inside, happy, healthy, well loved and with a mountain of toys. They go for long *safe* walks on the beach and in the park where the only thing resembling a bear turned out to be a Newfoundland.

Much happier than left outside to his own baby defenses chained to a dog house. 








or just a troll?


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Quote:what was your reason for getting two puppies if they have to be tied out on chains all the time and can't even play for more than 10 minutes at a time?


I don't remember saying they will be on chains all the time, I bought the innotec inground fencing system with 1000 ft of wire before I even bought the dogs, but due to advice from this web site will not be setting it up before they are 8 months old in the spring
I bught two, so that they would be less lonely, and again they are now separated because of what I read on this web site and elsware, they focus better when trained separate

They get exhausted and lie down after about 6 minutes of play at this point, so 10 minutes is plenty



> Quote:Why cant the pups play with each other throughout the day? I would think if they are outside they should at least have the company of each other when their human isnt around...Is it a bonding thing?


they start biting each other and therefor can not be left without supervision, and we don't have all day to watch them, plus they have to bond with us more then with each other, if given too much time by themselves, they will completely ignore humans. something I read and fully makes sense.



> Quote:No, I seriously doubt I am wrong.
> 
> A bear will mess with ADULT dogs, especially if they are captive on chains, much less 9 half grown, 9 month old adolescents.
> 
> Coyotes have been known to attack and kill adult large dogs left outside unsupervised or chained. And they're a lot smaller, weaker, more skittish and less bold than bears.


In no way am I doubting that bears can be deadly, I actually saved a human being in a lake who was barely alive with his dead wife in a canoe in Canada few years ago, but show me a link where a healthy adult GSD has been attacked by a bear, much less two GSD. everyone around here tells us we will not even have bears around with these dogs.



> Quote:My dogs have 2 acres completely fenced to play in. In fact, they are out there right now.
> 
> Guess what they are doing ... waiting at the fence for me to either bring them back into the house so we can hang on the couch and watch another movie or go out there and play with them.


couch potato dogs?







people also have cats that weigh I think 50 lbs? my dogs like wild life, as in wild animals. my poor pups, they will miss a movie








But as I read, it's all how you train them: some kids can be trained to play video games all day, others to be athletes.

Oh and my dogs love to eat apples, is that bad or ok?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: ryt
> Oh and my dogs love to eat apples, is that bad or ok?


Seriously you are worried if it is OK for your pups to eat apples.

Here are some things that can happen even when the dogs live in the house with us and we watch them like hawks.

How about if they swallow something large like oh maybe a small rock they dug up.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=802290&page=0&fpart=1

How about if they ate a small furry critter like a squirrel
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=802294&page=0&fpart=1

Oh, your inground fence system will not keep things out of your yard. So if your dogs have any prey drive and they are loose and some critter comes in the yard and they give chase the inground fence system isn't going to stop them. They will take the zap and keep going.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

If you already have all the answers, why do you even come to this board to ask any questions? It's obvious that you think you know more than the people on this board, many of whom have been raising and working dogs for many, many, many years. You obviously don't think they know what they're talking about.

If you're looking for someone to give you the thumbs up on leaving two young puppies outside, chained no less, in bear country, I think you're absolutely barking up the wrong tree. People here who have had German Shepherds for many years know that they are social dogs who crave being around their owners and who are not happy chained, or even kenneled, outside on the long term.

It matters little how great you make it sound, or how great you feel this is for your dogs. 

Woods to run around in - yeah, how much of that are your dogs getting if they're chained all the time? You yourself said that you can only let them play together for a little bit at a time because "you can't watch them all the time". Which is it?

Puppies bite each other - it's how they play. And letting two pups play together while you are not around to pay attention to them will give them something to do, rather than have them tethered and starting all kinds of nuisance behaviors like digging and barking (which is exactly what tethering them apart is going to do - maybe not now, but down the road). That has nothing to do with how well they bond with you - the quality time you spend with them separately (ie, training, playing, petting) is what determines how they will bond with you.

Bears, mountain lions, wolves, etc. have all been known to attack and kill GROWN, ADULT dogs. They don't shy away from attacking (and killing) grown, adult humans - what makes you think they're going to leave your two tethered puppies alone? Whoever told you that "you won't get any bears" because you have two pups tethered is telling you wrong.

The comparison between playing video games and athletes ... well, that just doesn't stand. Your dogs aren't athletes if they're chained. And Lauri & The Gang's dogs who adore her are no video game kids by any stretch of the imagination, considering she actually DOES things with her dogs - like lure coursing, and herding, and all sorts of other activities. Which is a far cry better for the dogs than being tethered outside. 

Apples are fine, but don't let them have the pips.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

Not to interrupt. 
Please continue to convience this person and others how to take care of their dogs. 

I do not know how to post threads. Wish I did. I tried and I cannot. 

This thread is supporting my arguments on the thread Chained, in Current Dog Affairs. 

Please someone post it there. 

Also I am against the invisable fence. 
Put the collar on yourself and try it. 
Some friends of ours had dogs that had that. They were permantly in a fear state of mind. They could hardly move. They did not even wear the collars any more, because the dogs were so afraid they would get shocked again they did not hardly go anywhere in the yard. 

I think there are some people on here that use this. 
Just my opinon. And what I saw. 

Bring the dogs in your house make them a part of your life and family, that is what they want.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

The link Daisy was talking about
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=790737&page=1&nt=5&fpart=1


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

ryt,

Sorry I posted too much info for you to get thru on my earlier post. Just wanted to make sure you read these links about keeping dogs outdoors:

Here's some sites with other info about why it's not good for the puppies to keep them outside:

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/outside_dogs.htm

http://www.unchainyourdog.org/news/OutsideDogs.htm

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/outdoor.html

None of those were written by me or anyone else on this site, so they may seem a bit more balanced with their recommendations.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: ryt
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well on another board someone posted pics and a story after a coyote climbed over her fence into her yard and attacked her two full grown pit bulls. It a little coyote will go out of its way to attack grown pit bulls, I think it's save to assume a bear would not think twice of swiping to tiny little puppies.


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

If I do choose to keep them inside, is having two GSD's an option?
how about outside during the day, inside during the night; in other words part time here, part time there?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: rytIf I do choose to keep them inside, is having two GSD's an option?
> how about outside during the day, inside during the night; in other words part time here, part time there?


If they are outside they should each be in their own runs. There are a lot of people (here even) that have dogs outside for the majority of the time. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as long as the dogs DO get plenty of mental stimulation, exercise, and time to be close with humans and other dogs (ie, you put them in the runs when you are not there, but when you ARE home, they should be with you). Chaining them or leaving them loose with an electric fence is a bad idea for many many reasons. If they have an enclosed run (with shelter), that is a MUCH better alternative. Though if you have seen bears in your area I would not do it. A bear could swipe through a chain link fenced run so easily. I know a guy who had a piece of his HEAD swiped off by a bear that was not even trying to be aggressive.

Little puppies I would not leave in runs yet though. Keeping them inside is best. Yes, it can work with two. The problems that arise with having two are more to do with giving them both the necessary amount of training and socialization time, not so much the _amount_ of dogs as far as space.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

I have 2 GSDs. They've always been inside unless I am home * awake * and keeping an ear on them outside. If I am not home, they're inside. They're separated when I am not home with them. They'd have too much fun destroying my house!

Really don't think it's a good idea to have them sleep outside. Too much can happen at night, especially where you have wildlife around you. Our wildlife consists of skunks, squirrels and an occasional possum - none of which I would want my dogs messing with while I'm sleeping.


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: LiesjeIf they are outside they should each be in their own runs.


do you have a link showing how to build runs, not completely sure I understand, but I think its where a chain can move on another chain?



> Quote:There are a lot of people (here even) that have dogs outside for the majority of the time. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as long as the dogs DO get plenty of mental stimulation, exercise, and time to be close with humans and other dogs (ie, you put them in the runs when you are not there,


That they definetely will get for reasons I explained.



> Quote: but when you ARE home, they should be with you).


What if at least one adult in our family is ALWAYS home? which is the case; that's the problem, I AM GETTING CONTRADICTING ADVICES:



> Quote:Chaining them or leaving them loose with an electric fence is a bad idea for many many reasons. If they have an enclosed run (with shelter), that is a MUCH better alternative. Though if you have seen bears in your area I would not do it.


We are considering atm to pull the kernel out and put dog houses in front of it next to the house til the spring; I just still have a hard time believing that a bear or a skunk can attack GSD's when they're grown up. I had them outside for the last month, maybe it was risky, maybe I'm just lucky I was looking thru the links people here posted for me, but nothing related to GSD's being attacked by a wild animal. I understand well how fragile we as humans are, but GSD's are like wolves?! I mean if they would be brought up to sit on a couch and watch TV that's one thing, but if they have this constant biting thing going on, and they're big (not now, but in the spring) I just have to see some links of some real reports...



> Quote:Little puppies I would not leave in runs yet though. Keeping them inside is best. Yes, it can work with two. The problems that arise with having two are more to do with giving them both the necessary amount of training and socialization time, not so much the _amount_ of dogs as far as space.


I'm considering it, just trying to get all the info first, hope I'm not making some people too angry by questioning their suggestions


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

And to hilight my point/question without any disrespect to advice I've gotten: are there people here who either had problems or can show links where someone has had a problem with any of the following 3:

1. GSD's freezing in a well insulated/dry dog house
2. Grown (for my future) GSD's attacked by a wild animal
3. Socialisim will not be a problem, neither will any neighbors, distractions etc.

Because I see it this way: 1. wild animal aproaches SLOWLY (they do not aproach fast, I know it for a fact) two dogs start barking (that's why I bought two) 2. wild animal gets the **** out of there...it's the same as a pack of wolves PLUS a pack of wolves that feel comfortable on our property, wild animals do not feel comfortable on someones property as they do in the wild.... 

comments?


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

weather providing my shepherd and shepherd mix stay outside during the day cause they want to, my other dog prefers the waterbed. at night all three dogs are inside sleeping with me and protecting anyone from breaking in.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: rytAnd to hilight my point/question without any disrespect to advice I've gotten: are there people here who either had problems or can show links where someone has had a problem with any of the following 3:
> 
> 1. GSD's freezing in a well insulated/dry dog house
> 2. Grown (for my future) GSD's attacked by a wild animal
> ...


To be frank, I personally do not know of any GSDs that have frozen to death or been killed by bears because I don't know anyone who would ever take a chance like that, especially with a puppy.

Why go to these great lengths only to provide the absolute minimum care (required by law) for your pets? My original question still stands - what was your intention/purpose for getting these two puppies? Putting in underground fencing, building dog houses, getting chains....sounds like a lot of money and work that will only cause more problems then they will solve. If you want a dog that is very happy outdoors in all sorts of weather, get a primitive or northern breed. Don't get a breed that was originally created and bred to live with a pack of humans and work based on a close bond with the handler.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: rytWe are considering atm to pull the kernel out and put dog houses in front of it next to the house til the spring; I just still have a hard time believing that a bear or a skunk can attack GSD's when they're grown up. I had them outside for the last month, maybe it was risky, maybe I'm just lucky I was looking thru the links people here posted for me, but nothing related to GSD's being attacked by a wild animal. I understand well how fragile we as humans are, but GSD's are like wolves?! I mean if they would be brought up to sit on a couch and watch TV that's one thing, but if they have this constant biting thing going on, and they're big (not now, but in the spring) I just have to see some links of some real reports...


I can tell you from first hand experience that yes, my GSD (full grown adult) was sprayed by a skunk when she was outside (and we lived in the city/suburbs). There have been other recent threads here about GSD's getting sprayed as well.

Also, as recently as this year, a friend and I were walking our 3 GSD's off leash in some fields near our house (2 of them were almost 4 and one was maybe 7 months old). 2 coyotes came upon us and tried to separate us and the dogs (thankfully our dogs have good recalls). One of the coyotes continued to stalk us down the hill. I have no doubt they would have tried to attack if the dogs were without us humans. On wikipedia, there is a link to an article about a coyote attacking and killing a Rottie (a full grown 100 lb) - not a GSD, but certainly not a powerless dog. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote (see footnote 41)

I have also seen coyotes scale fences into the backyards of peoples homes in my area. I can't give any bear examples, as there aren't too many of them here in San Diego









I also think that you have a misconception that GSD's who are happy to sit on a couch (at times) do not have the drive or ability to work. There are plenty of people here on the forum who have GSD's trained in SchH and then come home and sit on the couch!


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: Liesjewhat was your intention/purpose for getting these two puppies?


1. keep wild animals and thieves out or at least alert me to them
2. companion to go for walks in the forest with
Two so they would have a compation when I'm not with them



> Quote:If you want a dog that is very happy outdoors in all sorts of weather, get a primitive or northern breed. Don't get a breed that was originally created and bred to live with a pack of humans and work based on a close bond with the handler.


OK, I will have to report back to you on how they're doing in the winter, from what I heard they do have winters in Germany. so far they're doing excellent.


> Quote:Large, strong and intelligent. Family protector. <span style="color: #FF0000">Able to handle heat and cold extremes</span>
> http://www.hoflin.com/BR/German%20Shepherd%20Dogs





> Quote:Basic Requirements: Early socialization and training is important. <span style="color: #FF0000">German Shepherds need a large, well-fenced yard in which to exercise.</span>
> 
> Temperament: German Shepherds are intelligent dogs. They are generally good with children if raised with them. Ask to see the parents to get an idea of their temperament. Select a happy, outgoing puppy. <span style="color: #FF0000">German Shepherds make good watchdogs </span>and are often used for police work. They are very loyal to their owners.
> 
> http://www.dog-breeds.net/German_Shepherd.htm


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

I'm glad your still here and taking in advice/suggestions, whether good or bad )

My dogs don't spend the nite outside, they never have and I have had dogs my entire life(multiple ones right now 4). During the day if I'm not here to supervise, they are in the house. Two are crated, two are not. Outside yard time, is a fenced 1/2 acre which I supervise, when you have multiple dogs, no telling what could happen)

With that, (not that it makes a difference) here are my suggestions/thoughts for your situation and sorry if I get lengthy).

I really think you'll find it better keeping puppies inside (crated) at this age, vs outside when you can't supervise. Not only because they are "puppies" (and basically babies), but for you as well, to start working on a good relationship, plus I think all dogs should have the benefit of living at least some of the time inside with their family .

IF you are to keep them outside, I think what most here refer to as "runs",,mean a kennel type situation..You can purchase Panels of kennel at Home Depot/Lowes, pretty affordably, and build your own kennel area,,whatever dimensions you like. Put a good insulated dog house within your kennel, or even (as I did, but mine don't use it!),,roofing to cover a portion for shade/against the elements. Invisible fence isn't something I recommend, dogs can go "thru" it,,anything can come inside it..(skunked dogs in the middle of the nite isn't a fun thing)

As to wild animals attacking dogs,,while I don't personally know of bears attacking dogs, two dogs even GSD's are most likely not going to come away unscathed from a bear attack. Cougars are silent killers, and probably worse than a bear. Honestly,,I just wouldn't take the chance. Plus worrying about whether a dog is bitten by a rabid animal. I don't know what state you live in, but here when a dog is bitten by a wild animal, it' has to be quarantined for a length of time and re rabie boostered

GSD's aren't the big owner protection dogs most think,,they are going to take care of number 1 first,,and number 1 is "themselves".Their 'bark' is enough of a deterrent for most..I personally would not get a gsd thinking it was going to protect me from wild animals. 

Right now it's probably looking to be pretty easy having two puppies, and well, all I can say is,,THIS is the easy part! LOL..Wait till they hit that butthead teenage stage and decide everything you've taught them has completely left their mind))

All I can leave with is, train separately, socialize separately, NOW, and continue to do so. They go thru so many different periods in their young life, they can never have to much socialization and exposure to different things. Training is a never ending thing with these dogs. Some are easier than others. 

I honestly think, if you allow these dogs in your house, to live "with" you,atleast part of the time if not all the time, you will find you'll end up with a much better relationship with them than living as outside dogs. (tho many do successfully I'm sure) 

Crate training is not only beneficial to you but to a puppy. Say you have to leave him at the vets, or some ER crops up, and the dog has to be crated? Seeing a freaked out adult dog in a crate is not a pleasant thing. 

There is nothing wrong with having an outside kennel and ones dogs being in them, BUT I do think there is alot one would miss out on by not having a dog that also can live in ones home. 

Just some thoughts


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

The quotes you posted, (while I was posting)) just wanted to say, don't believe everything you read..

All dogs are individuals, because they say they make good watch dogs, doesn't mean they all are good watch dogs..)

My male aussie would take on an intruder before my gsds would even think about it..just something else to think about .


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

The term "run" or "dog run" does not refer to any kind of tie-out system, pully system, or any of that. It refers to a chain-link enclosure, usually with a roof or tarp covering the top to provide shade and protection from the elements. A proper run would have an easily cleaned surface, an insulated dog house, and an elevated platform or cot bed for the dog to be safe and comfortable. Runs are used the way people use crates - when you are not home to supervise and keep an eye on your dogs.

When you are home, both dogs should be loose with you or leashed with you, not kenneled the whole time.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: ryt I understand well how fragile we as humans are, but GSD's are like wolves?! I mean if they would be brought up to sit on a couch and watch TV that's one thing, but if they have this constant biting thing going on, and they're big (not now, but in the spring) I just have to see some links of some real reports...


Dogs are NOT wolves. Yes, GSDs are more wolflike than others (like my lab, a prime example on neotony), but they are not wolves. Dogs have evolved from wolves but are so far removed you cannot consider them the same. If you want to read an interesting study on domestic animals you should check out the Silver Fox study. The scientist attempted to replicate the evolution of todays dogs from wild wolves. Since most dogs have their gene pools polluted from a wolve at some point, he chose silver foxes. Foxes are also canine and would not have any wolf genes. Here is a summary of the study
http://mammals.suite101.com/article.cfm/domesticating_the_silver_fox
In short, within 8-10 generations of breeding, there were alot of changes in the behavior and even the appearance of the foxes. 

Besides the fact that wolves hunt in packs. Even if a GSD was like a wolf, alone he is a target. Even a second GSD that is tethered away from him, barking or not, will not help. 
Just because you havent read any stories on the internet does not mean it can't happen. 

Personally, my GSD is too smart for the electric fence. My lab wouldn't even test it, I know Kape would go right through it.


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerMyth, puppies can be potty trained before 14 weeks, *IF* you have them in the house and work with them and train them.
> 
> GSD's do not do well on chains. These are intelligent pups that will grow into intelligent dogs. Left tied up out in the yard, they will still fight with each other even though they can't reach each other. 13 week old pups tied outside are fair game for stray dogs, wildlife including coyotes, full grown fox, full grown raccoon who will want to steal their food and then there are the wonderful little stinky skunks who are notorious for carrying rabies, oh and the bear you mentioned.
> 
> ...


Agree 100 Percent with Val....

Jesse at 8 weeks I had him house trained in 2 days and as well he is trained to go to one area only in the backyard (by taking him there every single time and telling him to go, now he can go their on his own and only does it there.

GSD some are smarter than their owners and they are 100 percent pack animals and thrive being with the pack. 

I grew up in remote country and no way would I ever let a puppy out alone, they would be considered prey to wild animals. All dogs on the family farms were inside and outside dogs but they were aways in the house at night.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

Oh and that link was the first one I came across. It doesn't really do justice but I am tired. If you are really interested, just google silver fox study.

And a good number of people here don't raise their dogs to sit on the couch. There are a good number who train in schutzhund in protection (bitework) and tracking, using the prey drives that GSDs are bred for. They still wouldn't leave their dog to contend with a bear or any other wild animal. 

If only I could train my dogs to sit and be a couch potato. Even though they were raised in the house with me and loved snuggling on the couch, they still demand their outside and excercise time.


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



ryt
[quote said:


> Quote:In no way am I doubting that bears can be deadly, I actually saved a human being in a lake who was barely alive with his dead wife in a canoe in Canada few years ago, but show me a link where a healthy adult GSD has been attacked by a bear, much less two GSD. everyone around here tells us we will not even have bears around with these dogs



I can't provide you a link, but I can provide PERSONAL experience. I grew up in a small mining town in British Columbia called Tumbler Ridge. It was built on the migration path of the Grizzly and Black Bears, and they were a part of life. I had two LG dogs, 1 a Great Pyranese (sp?) and the other was an Akita Malamute. These dogs were both indoor dogs, but did get quite a bit of time in the 6.5 ft fenced back yard. 

Prior to letting the dogs out in the morning, I always looked out a bedroom window to check the yard for bears and the yard was clear. I let the dogs out. Within 5 minutes my dogs were going nuts. A bear had come over the fence and was after them in the yard. They managed to drive the bear away, but the bear did come into the yard knowing the dogs' were there. These were two FULL grown dogs, not chained, and a bear came for them.

If it is a bad season for berries, food supply, then the bears will come for anything that may fill it's belly before hibernation. 

Luckily, my dogs came out of it lucky, both survived. If another 5 minutes had passed, the outcome is anyone's guess. 

The dogs may not be a bear's first choice, but if it is hungry enough, and the opportunity is there, you better believe it'll take it.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

I have merged the OP's first account and the second account. 

Wisc.Tiger - Admin


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Quote:Crate training is not only beneficial to you but to a puppy
> 
> My male aussie would take on an intruder before my gsds would even think about it


actually I do not want them to take on an intruder, I will be looking to read about ways to make sure that does not happen in fact... <span style="color: #FF0000">*I need to train them only to bark upon intruder, but not to attack. that's another think I need advice on!!!*</span>



> Quote: The term "run" or "dog run" does not refer to any kind of tie-out system, pully system, or any of that. It refers to a chain-link enclosure, usually with a roof or tarp covering the top to provide shade and protection from the elements. A proper run would have an easily cleaned surface, an insulated dog house,


Oh, we have that, including cemented floors which are easy to clean. dog houses working on it now; as I mentioned these will be best dog houses anyone has around, fully insulated and elevated so that heating blankets can be placed underneath



> Quote:Luckily, my dogs came out of it lucky, both survived. If another 5 minutes had passed, the outcome is anyone's guess.


I am considering a real fence down the road now, but let's say we hear the barking, I take out my gun, soot the bear, and save on canned food.









I am taking all your advices seriously though, don't get me wrong.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

Most dogs will bark at an intruder from inside a house, they don't need to be tied on a chain. My mutt barks when people approach the house. My GSD NEVER EVER barks in any other context but will bark at intruders (neither dog will charge, in fact both avoid conflict and any person CAN enter my home, the dogs stop barking and move aside when the door is opened).


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

ryt, I'm really glad that you're still here and are becoming more open to the great advice that's being given. I have learned a heck of a lot being on this site. 

I hope you'll consider letting your dogs come inside more often and also let them sleep inside in separate crates. It definitely will bond them to you more and I think it will make them think of the house as their place and be more protective of it.

Hang in there! I've found that training and caring for my adult rescue GSD has been (and still is!) a pretty big undertaking. I can't imagine what it must be like to raise two puppies at the same time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

With concrete as a base for the pens, you should be able to bring the dogs in regularly, without having smelly, muddy dogs to deal with every day. 

Mine have the concrete, dog houses, pens are covered over to prevent climbing, sun shades over top in summer months -- taken off for snow. 

Every evening when I get home, dogs come in. When I am at work, dogs are in their runs. This may be something that you may consider. Two of my runs are set up so that there is a divider between the two runs with a gate in it. I can leave two dogs together in the run, or separate them as I see fit. While your youngsters are puppies, you could leave them together giving them the whole run. When they get bigger, or if there is any serious aggression, you can simply keep them separate. A second gate to the back pen would be nice in the case that someon needs to come and care for your dogs, and might let them get together. 

I do not know how cold it gets your way, but heating blankets are probably overkill. In a properly sized dog house (not too big or the dogs heat will not be able to keep it warm), you should not need any heating blanket. A bit of straw would probably do a much better job without an electric cord to get in the way. 

I would be more concerned with keeping water unfrozen. There are buckets that can do this. Good luck. 
GSDs do belong with their people most of the time their people are around. Good luck with yours.


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: KarinI can't imagine what it must be like to raise two puppies at the same time.


(thx)
Lots of fun so far: I go for walks with both of them at least twice a day, not counting all the time we play with them (probably 20 times a day) what really helped in walking them TOGETHER is s thin whipping stick, that really makes them behave, after just a few days, I almost never have to use it now... before that 'correction' techniq whenever theyre out together they're like two magnets and shaking them off only works for 1 second, then theyre back in a fight again.... 

anyway, having two has plusses also - if you give them a rag one end for each, they stay busy that way for a few minutes instead of biting each other


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Quote: what really helped in walking them TOGETHER is a thin whipping stick, that really makes them behave, after just a few days I almost never have to use it now... before that 'correction' techniq whenever theyre out together they're like two magnets and shaking them off only works for 1 second, then theyre back in a fight again....


They're teeny little puppies - they're supposed to fight and wrestle.

If you want them to walk nicely and bond with you, hitting them with a stick to keep them from playing is not the way to go about it. That's eventually going to make them shy (because you're the one who's going to hit them) or they will simply learn to stay just far enough away from you while playing.

If you want them to WALK with you, put both pups on leashes, one on either side, and walk briskly, not letting them play. Or you could walk them separately until they get the idea of walking being exercise, not time to run around and act wild.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

ryt, just want to AGAIN state your puppies aren't 'fighting'. 

They are playing. NORMAL play. And we all want our pups to play when they are young cause it's a vital part to become NORMAL adults. Giving a correction to puppies for a good thing can cause alot of problems later on.



> Quote: actually I do not want them to take on an intruder, I will be looking to read about ways to make sure that does not happen in fact... I need to train them only to bark upon intruder, but not to attack. that's another think I need advice on!!!


Another problem with outdoor dogs on runs is that burglars LOVE THIS! Their favorite homes to rob are the ones that the dogs are safely outdoors. These dogs not only bark at everything all the time, assuring they are ignored by everyone all the time. But also, unless you are living out with them, and keep your valuables out with them, the safest place in the area to murder/rape/rob is in the house! Because the big scary GSD's are penned up outside












> Quote: If you want them to WALK with you, put both pups on leashes, one on either side, and walk briskly, not letting them play. Or you could walk them separately until they get the idea of walking being exercise, not time to run around and act wild.


That is exactly what you should be doing with puppies. The best trainers don't hit and correct when their puppies do something wrong. The BEST trainers manage the situation to have the puppies do what they want them to do. Pro-active. Thinking ahead. Planning. 

It's much better to have a happy and confident puppy going thru life thinking they are smart, always brilliant, and mom/dad are constantly rewarding them for being such a good dog!!!!! Instead of being bad bad bad bad bad bad bad all the time and needing to be correcting. These 'bad' dogs are constantly being set up for failure and have NO confidence.


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: HistorianThey're teeny little puppies - they're supposed to fight and wrestle.
> 
> If you want them to walk nicely and bond with you, hitting them with a stick to keep them from playing is not the way to go about it. That's eventually going to make them shy (because you're the one who's going to hit them) or they will simply learn to stay just far enough away from you while playing.
> 
> If you want them to WALK with you, put both pups on leashes, one on either side, and walk briskly, not letting them play. Or you could walk them separately until they get the idea of walking being exercise, not time to run around and act wild.


having just one on the leash works for me so far, other one is like magnet walking by, and occasionaly try to provoke the other one with moves.... it's fun to watch, but a single warning and they behave again, as for making them shy, I know exactly what you mean, but I never hit withut a warning, or too hard, first is command in a normal tone (works more and more lately), then if needed in a warning tone (works ~95% of the time), and then if I need to spank them, I never spank the one off leash too hard and pet him right after he behaves to make him understand that I'm not angry...


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## ryt (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*

They have their play time and walking time seperately - I agree with you maggie, and gave it lots of thought too several weeks ago when the fighting was at it's peak... we know that this 'fighting' exercize is very important to them, we just like to be in control of things all the time and at the same time *I found their fighting to be an excellent training advantage* because it makes a good distraction, I have one on the long leash, let them get into their game, then call the one on the leash and if he don't listen, a small spank - this way when they're by themselves they listen very well


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*using a stick to correct playing puppies?*



> Quote:having just one on the leash works for me so far


But it's not. And that's our point. Because if it WAS working, you wouldn't have to hit at all. 



> Quote:but I never hit withut a warning, or too hard, first is command in a normal tone (works more and more lately), then if needed in a warning tone (works ~95% of the time),


The proper way to raise a happy and confident puppy isn't with hitting and spanking a puppy AFTER they do something wrong (bad dog bad dog bad dog............)

The PROPER way to raise a happy confident puppy is by setting them up to always do right (good dog good dog good dog).

The fact you still can't see the difference is what we are trying to address. It would be EASY for you to just have 2 leashes and keep moving fast. Or to walk the puppies separately. You would then have two happy puppies that are 100% correct, proper and well behaved on the entire walk.

Instead, you INSIST on setting them up to fail when they do exactly what any normal, happy, wonderful puppy will do when you set them up to 'fail' by contining to walk them as you do. They will want to play (not fight, it's play). And then, after they do (failing to behave the way you want) you will spank and hit them for failing (like you set them up to do..................). 



> Quote:and then if I need to spank them, I never spank the one off leash too hard and pet him right after he behaves to make him understand that I'm not angry...


By the way, if I smack my puppy and then tell them they are a good dog, isn't that sending a mixed message? confusing confusing confusing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

ryt, it may be working NOW (or working from YOUR perspective), but just consider how many people on this board have raised two or more puppies at a time, or regularly breed and socialize puppies, and no one has ever advocated for spanking them and whipping them....What makes you right and everyone else wrong?

Just yesterday I visited my breeder and my puppy. She explained that in the past she kept puppies for 10 weeks instead of 8 weeks, and at ten weeks she had her puppies crate trained, house broken, and well-socialized (she has several people come to handle them, they go on short car rides, trips outdoors, one-on-one attention...). Interesting isn't that someone can crate train and house break and entire littler up puppies at ten weeks old without ever having to beat them...


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

As someone who is raising two puppies at the same time, even though they are three months apart, let me tell you, you're in for a LOT of work. Spanking, whipping, correcting with a stick is how you get your dogs to fear you. The only methods I use are positive training and NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free). I also enstill a pack mentality.

Start using positive reinforcement, you'll find it works a lot better than spanking your pup. I have two well behaved pups. They get walked 1-2 times a day, they get trained a few times a day as well. They playfight, but they are always supervised, especially since Apollo is older, he could (never has) accidentally hurt Zeus.

Also, when they get older, are you prepared to break up serious fights if they don't get along? Are you prepared to pay vet bill if they both get hurt? What if you have to keep them seperated 24/7? These are things you should think about. (Sorry if they have already been mentioned)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

I really hope this guy is not for real.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI really hope this guy is not for real.


Me too but my suspicion is that we have someone with too much time on their hands who keeps reappearing under different names...


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

My thought also.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

I can't read all the posts, are we deleting this thread?


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

Troll, somebody block his IP


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

This post gave me a headache and a heartache for the pups.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

Well I'm hoping the poster is keeping an open mind and possibly rethinking their training methods. 

So far no-one has been supportive of the use of the stick on the playing puppies. So maybe that will help.

As well as other suggestions about better ways to train a puppy using positive methods..............


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

Ryt, think about it this way- you are new to your job and VERY enthusiastic. If you make an understandable error, only because you don't know better and are just so eager to get going, your boss punches you in the face, then he buys you lunch so you know he's not angry with you. But every time you make a mistake, he does this routine. You have plenty of lunches and never go hungry but your face is black and blue. Worst of all, no one has actually SHOWN you what to do. You only learn when you screw up because that's when you get a punch in the face. You suddenly start to like your job less and less. How long until you bring a bat to work and beat the ever-loving crap out of your boss, rightfully so, for such horrible treatment?

THIS is the world your pups live in. I feel for those pups.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

somebody deleted my post on how to use a stick to train a puppy

anybody interested PM me


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

I can tell you just how to use a stick to train a puppy: 

Step one, prepare a good sized stick, easy to swing but heavy enough to give a good crack.

Step two, when you see that the puppy has soiled the house, or chewed a valuable item, get the stick. 

Step three, lift the stick high up in the air over your head, and swiftly slap it down so it engages with the top of your head. 

Step four, repeat the following three times: I will watch my puppy when he is loose.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*



> Originally Posted By: selzerI can tell you just how to use a stick to train a puppy:
> 
> Step one, prepare a good sized stick, easy to swing but heavy enough to give a good crack.
> 
> ...


I can voutch for the effectiveness of this method! I've used it without fail for the last two months, and house-soiling and inappropriate object chewing has declined to almost zero!









(But for some strange, unexplainable reason, I got a real sore area on the top of my head . . .)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*



> QuoteBut for some strange, unexplainable reason, I got a real sore area on the top of my head . . .)


Too funny and too true...


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: outdoor dog, how to teach to poop in certain a*



> Originally Posted By: ryt...but show me a link where a healthy adult GSD has been attacked by a bear, much less two GSD. everyone around here tells us we will not even have bears around with these dogs.





> Quote:In CA: A Kern County woman mauled by a bear underwent 10 hours of surgery and is expected to recover.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...





> Quote:A Kenai Peninsula man shot and killed a brown bear with a shotgun slug while the young boar threatened a chained dog, according to an Alaska Department of Fish and Game biologist.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

Here ya go with the dogs injured/killed or NOT helping when humans are injured/killed by bear(s):

http://www.whtm.com/news/stories/0508/519181.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25818196/

http://www.komonews.com/news/9538012.html

http://www.yellowstone.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18271&sid=53974a00678a00db09e9872d17c37685


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

I agree with that!! 









Boy this post took a turn for the wost since I last checked it. 

So where are we at with caring for these pups? Ryt? 
I hope you took some of the advice.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

With Selzer. Not using a stick. 

My post looked like I agreed with that, someone changed the header.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: using a stick to correct playing puppies?*

This is really sad. I hope to be a dog trainer one day, and though I'm young and have just gotten started in pursuing my career, everything you want to do with your dogs go against every instinct that I have. Please consider that these dogs are not wolves. They are also not some bionic robot that will be able to scare away bears. I would literally dive in front of my dog if I saw a large animal of ANY kind in our yard. It just makes no sense. And hitting them with a whipping stick while they are playing is just harmful and bound to create more problems then whatever it is you are hoping to solve. 

I think you said in one of your previous posts that there is an adult home all the time? If I didn't read that correctly then please disregard this, but if that's the case then why can't they stay inside? My parents never wanted to keep a dog inside, and because of that I had to BEG for YEARS to be able to get a tiny little chihuahua that I could keep indoors with me. They had dogs that they let run loose (I know, I know), but those dogs were never mine. They were never really anyones. My point is this, they didn't want a dog indoors because they thought it would destroy the house or be completely awful. And while a chihuahua is not a GSD by any stretch of the imagination, a puppy of any breed is a lot of work. It was hard to potty train him with that tiny little bladder. But you know what? He is a happy, healthy, loving part of our family. 

Dogs WANT and NEED to be with their family. Leaving them in yard is not going to make them protective of anything but themselves. Every dog I've ever seen kept outside bark at EVERYTHING. People just ignore them, and I imagine since wild animals are very smart when it comes to hunting their prey, that they would not consider two dogs much of a challenge tethered up in a yard.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: rytAnd to hilight my point/question without any disrespect to advice I've gotten: are there people here who either had problems or can show links where someone has had a problem with any of the following 3:
> 
> 1. GSD's freezing in a well insulated/dry dog house
> 2. Grown (for my future) GSD's attacked by a wild animal
> 3. Socialisim will not be a problem, neither will any neighbors, distractions etc.


I just saw this thread and I'm not sure the OP will even be back, but thought I'd add here in case anyone else thinks like he does.

I live in Alaska where LARGE wildlife is very common, even in the towns (in fact I live on the Kenai Peninsula, which was mentioned in an earlier quote about a bear attacking a dog). I worked as a vet tech for years as well as having been a trainer for nearly 20 years. I have personally seen large adult dogs - including a shepherd or two - hurt or killed by wildlife here. Having GSDs does not mean that you can just leave them outside and assume that they will scare off the wildlife. Tethered dogs are pretty much helpless against a bear or moose or wolf (although wolves are probably the least likely to attack). Yes, they may alert to something coming into their territory, but it doesn't take long for a bear or moose to create a great deal of damage to a dog (even a loose dog) - and you may think that you can walk out with your gun and take care of the problem, but when there's a fight going on, you have a great likelihood of shooting one of the dogs by accident.

Bears can and do wake up and move around in the winter. I've seen bears active in late October and have seen tracks in mid-winter in the snow. And early spring is a very dangerous time when it comes to bears - the neighborhood I used to live in (on the Kenai River) had bears coming right up onto porches looking for food - even though there were barking dogs living at the homes. Bears, when hungry, are dangerous even to two GSDs, especially if those dogs are chained up (and as you mentioned, would not be able to reach each other).

As far as GSD's freezing - they are not a breed that is acclimated to living outdoors in real cold areas. If you're talking an area where the temperature stays above freezing, then they may physically do okay. But they don't have a coat like a Samoyed or Chow or Newfoundland. All of the GSDs I've had have had a much higher sensitivity to the cold than my Chows have had. When the temperatures drop, even going out to potty means that their feet get cold and it's not unusual to see them holding up feet in just a few minutes. No, my dogs are not wimps - they're well cared for and loved, which means they aren't left outside in really cold weather. Even with insulated doghouses, dogs who are left outdoors are going to spend some time outside of that doghouse (what a boring life it would be to have to spend 24/7 inside of a tiny house with no company). And I've seen MANY frostbit ears and feet on dogs (0h - and scrotums! VERY common area to get frostbit!) who are accustomed to living outside because their owners don't want to be bothered with them in the house. 

On socialization - a properly socialized dog, GSD or not, is taken places and taught proper behavior in a large variety of situations. They learn the difference between a friendly person and a potential threat and can properly differentiate between the two. They learn manners inside as well as out, learn where they're allowed to potty, learn how to accept being touched by a veterinarian, etc. I haven't seen many dogs that are raised on chains or left out in runs who have the same level of proper socialization as a dog that is handled from puppyhood by someone who makes an effort to have the dog be a part of their lives - which means indoors as well as out. 

When it's the dead of winter and really cold, how much time is a person really going to spend outside playing with their dogs? Very little - those dogs are going to just lay in their doghouses, trying to stay warm, bored and sad because they have no physical or mental stimulation.

Here in Alaska we have a lot of sled dogs who live outside on chains. These are dogs that are bred to have the coat to live outdoors. They're much more of an independent breed and are bred primarily to work in harness. These dogs aren't really socialized and they aren't pets, which is usually what happens when a dog lives out on a chain. They're well exercised and handled because they go on long runs on a regular basis, but a GSD would not do well in that situation. Sled dogs are bred to pull and run and that's mostly what they have on their minds. GSDs are bred to be part of their family group and those that are not allowed that privilege generally don't tend to be really nice dogs.

To the OP - you asked which dogs would be happier, those who got walked on city streets or those who got to walk in the woods - my answer to you, based on 20 years of training and teaching people to train dogs, is that the happier dogs would be whichever ones lived inside with their people, were trained using primarily positive methods, and who had a loving, trusting bond with the people who are a major part of their lives. Where they walk is immaterial. The life they lead outside of the walks is much more important.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Most of my dogs come in every night, but one of my boys stays outside, winter and summer. He has a dog house and a double coat and has not gotten frostbite yet. I live in NE Ohio, and the temp sometimes dips to ten below. But rarely. If it is below 0, the dog comes in for the night. 

All of them are outside all day while I am at work. Only young puppies are kept where they can get in or out. All of them have shelters and houses, and none of them have had any problems in these temperatures. I make it a point, when I bring them in to check them up under their bellies and they are always toasty warm. 

They can handle some cold weather. But if we are talking 10 below or more, then that is just insanity, even with a properly sized insulated house with straw. Maybe the dog could survive without injury. But you have to ask yourself why on earth you want a dog. 

And puppies do not have the insulation that adults have. Puppies will get hypothermia and can lose mobility and even die. 

Really, I am surprised that nobody has suggested that the OP rehome the puppies. If he is for real, keeping puppies outside, chained, year round, and correcting them with a stick, why exactly does he want these dogs???


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