# Training with prong collar..



## laura811

I recently rescued a 2yr old female Shepherd. Shes a sweetheart but im having a little trouble with getting her to listen. I have an 8yr old male who went through professional training (with prong collar) and he walks great on leash and is very well behaved. Ive tried to stop the female from bad habits like jumping and pulling on leash with the prong collar. She doesn't like it and she whines when it pinches. I know that shepherds are known for their whining and my male whined for his first few sessions with the collar as a pup. I don't want to hurt her but she needs to learn! She could just be dramatic but im just seeking advice to see if i should continue with the prong or try a different method.. Thanks!

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## FirstTimeGSD

If you stop now she's going to understand that if she whines about stuff she doesn't like...she'll get her way. Check out some youtube videos on prong training (try looking for non puppy demonstrations--I don't have any links handy but I have seen at least 1 good video where the trainer is demonstrating with a grown up dog as opposed to a puppy). Good luck!


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## laura811

I'm planning on doing some different exercises for the jumping. Like putting on the collar and having some family members come in, and correct her when she tries to jump. Shes already doing much better with the walking with collar and today was her first day working on it!

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## Gretchen

My dogs have never yelped from the prong collar. Are you doing a quick "pop" of pull?
At training I learned a balanced way to "pop", I was being wimpy, so the trainer encouraged to to try harder, but not to the point where the dog yelps. But I'm not there to see if your dog is being dramatic or not.

Are you placing the collar high on the neck, below the ears? I remember seeing Leerburg instructions on how to place the prong, they may also have videos for using them.

Other than the prong, you could try a spray bottle, at least that is what I do for unwanted cat behavior. Sorry no other ideas, our dog grew out of this quickly.

If your dog is jumping on you, say when you come home, we just learned to get down low, to her level, or she's allowed on the couch, so we direct her to the couch where we could all sit comfortably and get a happy hello.


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## Deno

I have used most of the Lew Burke method on all my dogs with fantastic results, I had Lexie heeling off the lead within about 15 minutes or so of ever having a leash on her. This was done in two lessons, about 7 minutes or so each. This may sound harsh but it's not. You start off by tying them to a post or a stake where they can't get tangled up, with about a 3' lead. You walk away out of her sight but where you can see her. At first she will pull and fight, just remain calm, this will only last a little bit, 30 seconds or so at most has been my experience from what i can remember. After she calms down let her stay there another minute or so and then go to her with great praise. She has no reason to tie you to any of what has just happened to her as far as the prong collar goes. Now you untie her lead and you say heel while smacking your left leg and you take off. Sharp short corrections, by that I mean fast snaps without hurting her, you just want to get her attention. Every time she pulls away you smack your leg saying heel while at the same time giving her a correction. As soon as she comes to your side you give her a treat along with lavish praise. Lesson 2 starts off heeling on the lead doing the same as above. About 3/4 of the way through the second lesson you take the prong collar off and hold it in your right hand where it is hanging down where you can shake and rattle it. You tell her to heel while smaking your left leg as you start to walk, if she hesitates you rattle the collar, this will bring her to your side. Lexies results may be hard to duplicate, you may need a few more lead time lessons. I can't remember how long it took me to teach my male Dex,but I know for sure Lexie put him to shame, it seems like it was a few weeks or so with Dex, and I thought he was the smartest dog I had ever seen. It seems like Burke said it could take like 3 weeks or so to have them heeling off the lead. I have been extremely lucky. Once they have the concept down you can use a shock collar to tweak them.


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## Dbrooke407

PLEASE don't use the prong collar!! It could cause SERIOUS injuries. I would recommend a Gentle Leader or Easy Walk. I have one of each and found that my GSD does a lot better with the Easy Walk. Both of these products are top of the line and help to stop the dog from pulling. 

The biggest problem with prong collars is that dogs have an "opposition reflex." Meaning, when you (or they) pull against their collar, they instinctively pull back. Even if it means injuring themselves. They can't help it or stop it. Kane would flat out choke himself into a gagging for until we start using the Easy Walk harness.

The Gentle Leader and Easy Walk keep the products away from the opposition reflex area and away from the areas of the throat most likely to be injured with prong collars and even regular collars. 


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## Dbrooke407

laura811 said:


> I'm planning on doing some different exercises for the jumping. Like putting on the collar and having some family members come in, and correct her when she tries to jump. Shes already doing much better with the walking with collar and today was her first day working on it!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


When it comes to that, a collar and leash usually aren't even necessary. When she jumps, have whoever she joked on to look up and pull up their arms. Ignore the dog until the dog calms down and then reward with attention. If she jumps again because of excitement from the attention, repeat. It usually takes approximately a week, but it can be resolved without the use of a prong collar or leash or anything like that.


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## cliffson1

Give her and the pinch collar a chance.....patience and calm will be best in long run.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with cliff

As for the prong collar causing serious damage, well, choke collars can cause worse injuries..Used correctly and not left on without supervision, prong collars are very effective.


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## MilesNY

Gentle leaders have caused more damage than prongs I would bet. Again I think all tools are great for different dogs, different issues, but my dogs have prongs on and my chiropractor vet advised against head collars of any sort due to risk of serious neck damage. 

Give the prong a bit more time. Once they know prong means walk, fun, training they are eager to put it on. Jingle a prong at my house you will get mugged by dogs. 


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## Deno

MilesNY said:


> Gentle leaders have caused more damage than prongs I would bet. Again I think all tools are great for different dogs, different issues, but my dogs have prongs on and my chiropractor vet advised against head collars of any sort due to risk of serious neck damage.
> 
> Give the prong a bit more time. Once they know prong means walk, fun, training they are eager to put it on. Jingle a prong at my house you will get mugged by dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Words of Wisdom.


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## maureen_mickel

Dbrooke407 said:


> When it comes to that, a collar and leash usually aren't even necessary. When she jumps, have whoever she joked on to look up and pull up their arms. Ignore the dog until the dog calms down and then reward with attention. If she jumps again because of excitement from the attention, repeat. It usually takes approximately a week, but it can be resolved without the use of a prong collar or leash or anything like that.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually, the prong collar was designed by a vet to protect the neck. The problem is many people use and fit them wrong. I used to think they were bad until i had done some research and then tried it myself 

Check out this method of training with one, in my opinion the BEST method (though that is my opinion) i demonstrate this method to anyone that comes in the pet store I work in and are looking for a prong, and they are amazed at how gentle and effective it is. I have not had any dogs fail from using this method so far:











and are you using a sprenger prong? Usually, the cheaper prongs (usually titan) are jagged at the tips and cause them to whine. This was the case with Celia. Then i switched to sprenger and was amazed. You can also get rubber caps to place on the tips if you don't want to buy a new one  happy training!


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## Deno

Thanks for the vids MM. Like a lot of things, the prong collar gets a bad rap,
so many misconceptions about a great tool.


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## maureen_mickel

Deno said:


> Thanks for the vids MM. Like a lot of things, the prong collar gets a bad rap,
> so many misconceptions about a great tool.




No problem! I find it funny how its even banned in some countries, when traditional chokes are not and cause A LOT more damage. Yesterday, I dealt with a very frustrated owner of a dog, driven nuts by the pulling and disobedience. She wanted to get a choke, so I fit it on her dog. No matter how much the dog was corrected, it did NOT improve (these were very intense corrections too! Definitely future neck damage!) I suggested that she would use a prong, she thought they were cruel. I told just let me fit it on, and you will see.

she said ok.

And so I did. And she was AMAZED especially when I showed her the method in those videos. The puppy was MUCH happier, and so was the owner.

Inhumane? I definitely think not 

I used to think this, you may even find some of my posts telling people not to use it! But I opened up my mind and started working with a variety of methods, and found them extremely humane and effective when done right.


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## jrglade

Just watched the vids--fantastic, very helpful.

I don't have my GSD yet, first time GSD owner, hopefully soon. I am looking to adopt a 1 year old, so am researching to prepare (meeting him today with my Eskie to see how they get along, keeping fingers crossed)

Love these forums, very informative


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## Nikkia

Prongs aren't bad. I used to think they were. But I was also naively raising an unruly little Nikkia. After being told by multiple reliable resources including someone I knew doing Police K-9 work to use one I finally gave in. Lets just say she was transformed pretty quickly and it didn't hurt her personality or temperament at all. She still wears a big goofy smile on her face and knows that it won't "bite" her unless she decides for it too. Lets just say I've never looked back. She graduated back to a flat collar for a while but I've put her back on the prong since I've gotten Kavik (Kavik is on one as well) because we are reestablishing things within our pack.

The prong is a great tool as long as it is not abused. You should condition your dog to it as shown in the video so that your dog comes to a realization that his behavior has caused the correction. You also do not need to correct very hard at all with a prong and there should never be sustained pressure on the collar. All corrections should be a quick pop and that's it.

As was mentioned earlier choke chains can cause more damage than a properly fitted prong.



> Metal choke chain collars are never recommended for obedience training. The mechanics of how these collars are used in obedience training (constantly popping the leash and collar) will do long term muscle damage to dogs' neck muscles This damage occurs right at the spot where the chain slips through the ring on the collar. The entire force of the correction is applied to this one spot whereas with a prong collar the force of the correction is applied around the entire circumference of the dog's neck. This has been proven through autopsies done in Germany on dogs that were trained their entire life with choke collars vs dogs trained with prong collars. -Ed Farley (Leerburg)


Even flat collars can cause more damage. Due to the general placement of flat collars on a dogs neck pulling by the dog or a correction from you can put pressure and stress on the dogs trachea which can lead to a tracheal collapse.

Head halti's can cause neck damage due to the awkward pulling motion of the head especially with dogs who like to flip around like little fishes to try and get out of them (That was Nikkia... poor girl I used all of these on her I should have started with the prong first. At least she doesn't show any residual effects from them).

Harnesses are great for tracking work and pulling things but that's just it. They encourage pulling. So that's why you generally see people who have harnesses on their dogs being dragged down the street. 

All of these tools have a purpose and are great tools when used in the proper context. They have their place and should only be used to fulfill their purpose in training or working.

Nikkia was my first Shepherd and I admit at 13 I may have got her too young, and I didn't know ANYTHING about training a Shepherd. They are much different than the 5 Ib Papillons my mom bred. But over the years I've tried to keep an open mind and learned to use these tools in the proper context as well as educate myself on how to be a good handler to her. So my advice to everyone new to training a GSD or concerned about these tool is to keep an open mind, know your tools and never stop educating yourself.


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## sparra

maureen_mickel said:


> I find it funny how its even banned in some countries, when traditional chokes are not and cause A LOT more damage.


I know......it's a wonder we get by at all......

I worked in a vet clinic for 12 years and not once did I see an injury related to a check chain......which is odd since that is all we can use over here.


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## David Winners

2 thumbs up for the Tyler Muto prong collar videos. Here's another good one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnoPXgWG0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

David Winners


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## Sergeantsays

Prong collars are excellent training devices if used correctly. And much less damaging than flat or choke. First make sure its a HermSprenger. And fit correctly, under the ears. Immediate results. Watch some videos on youtube about fit and "pop" corrections. I saw a woman in the park wrestling with a GSD and the prong collar was OVER the flat collar - so the dog didnt feel anything. You will never hear a dog breathing like Darth Vader when wearing a prong, unlike any other collar.


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## Cheyanna

Sergeantsays said:


> You will never hear a dog breathing like Darth Vader when wearing a prong, unlike any other collar.http://www.petguide.com/mobile


Unless it is Fiona and she is really trying to get at something. I have her wear her flat collar to hold the prong collar up higher now.


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## Sergeantsays

Just make sure the prong doesnt go over the flat collar. THere is a video on Youtube "TheGoodDogtraining" and it shows how you can put a clip on the dead ring of the prong to that it stays in place a few inches above the flat collar. And if the prong ever breaks open you still have a hold of the dog. I think its called prong training no. 1 and its informative. Sarge pulled me really hard once and I was on pea gravel and I was "water skiing" for like, 12 feet, Im sure it looked hysterical but I was scared. Prong collar the next day. Hope it helps.


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## Kaimeju

Nikkia said:


> The prong is a great tool as long as it is not abused. You should condition your dog to it as shown in the video so that your dog comes to a realization that his behavior has caused the correction. You also do not need to correct very hard at all with a prong and there should never be sustained pressure on the collar. All corrections should be a quick pop and that's it.


I have to agree with this and with the rest of your post. I remember feeling very frightened of using a prong on my dog when I was first starting out a few months ago, because so many people will tell you it will make them aggressive, ruin your relationship with your dog, make them hate training...We were already having problems with dog aggression and I didn't want to make it worse. Yet, I haven't found any of that to be true. The prong collar helped me get control of my dog so I could redirect her and reward her for the behavior I wanted. On a flat collar, she is easily distracted and starts pushing the boundaries immediately. She hated the gentle leader with a passion and I think it was far more aversive to her than the prong collar ever was. 

That said, I did not find it a very intuitive or easy tool to use, probably because I had to learn almost entirely through videos online. The Tyler Muto videos are good, and I think Michael Ellis has some good ones too. I did not care for the Good Dog Minute videos. The trainer has great timing, but in some of his videos, he is using aversion on very stressed, frightened dogs which I thing is a bad idea.

The timing of corrections was the hardest part- I found I had to time the correction exactly after my dog was considering misbehaving but before she had time to follow through with the behavior. Short pops with little forced worked the best. This might not be the case with all dogs, but I found if I missed my window of opportunity, she would not respond to a mild correction and a harsh one would not refocus her- she would just cling to my leg and shut down. Obviously I stopped doing this. But we started making huge strides in her dog reactivity once she learned from the prong collar that heeling is a requirement, not an option. I paired this with positive reinforcement for good behavior. I think if you're dealing with a soft dog and with any issues related to anxiety/fear, you have to be careful not to over-correct and to work just as hard at reinforcing attentiveness and self-control. This is just how things have worked out for me as a novice GSD owner. 

Good luck to you, OP!


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