# Opinions on Mals competing in Schutzhund/IPO



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I am curious as to everyone's opinions on Mals being good Schutzhund/ IPO dogs.

Do you think they are as good for the sport as GSDs?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'd say they're decent...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> I'd say they're decent...


Why do you think only decent?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sorry trying to joke. Malinois clearly can excel at IPO. Very flashy, very correct, and they love the work. Get the right one for the job and you'll see they were born for it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

So if a flashy and correct mal excels at IPO... is it still an appropriate breed test for GSDs?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

IPO is all about the training anymore, rather than focusing on the heart of the dog. 
Mals do excel in this sport, they have raised the bar for the points in judging, IMO. 
GSD's can compete with the Mal, in the OB phase, the mal will generally get more points...but in protection and in the tracking, I do believe the GSD shows more of what is natural instinct, and the training is not the focus quite so much. 
Mals tend to be more handler focused too....so tracking on their own with that line let out could be more of a challenge. But, I don't have or train a mal, this is just my own observation and opinion.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

From what I've seen Mals are quicker and more intense than GSDs. Some think of it as a good thing, and some think it's a bad thing. Depends on what exactly you're doing with one.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> IPO is all about the training anymore, rather than focusing on the heart of the dog.
> Mals do excel in this sport, they have raised the bar for the points in judging, IMO.
> GSD's can compete with the Mal, in the OB phase, the mal will generally get more points...but in protection and in the tracking, I do believe the GSD shows more of what is natural instinct, and the training is not the focus quite so much.
> Mals tend to be more handler focused too....so tracking on their own with that line let out could be more of a challenge. But, I don't have or train a mal, this is just my own observation and opinion.



So Mals are more mechanical, better at following explicit directions where the GSD is better at instinctual things where they aren't necessarily following more than a single given command, but more thinking on their own...


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Deb said:


> So Mals are more mechanical, better at following explicit directions where the GSD is better at instinctual things where they aren't necessarily following more than a single given command, but more thinking on their own...


I think that sounds about right, from what I've seen at least. Some say this shows that GSDs have more personality, and might take a second to think about it. I have said that this might be a reason why LE and military are using Mals more than GSDs, because they are quicker to follow a command with intensity. Same with the KNPV.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Mals do excel in IPO. I agree with Jane that they are a lot of the reason for the shifts in judging and other trends in IPO and breeding. I don't believe they are better than GSD's, just different.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

From what I have seen it looks like mals are much more intense with obedience as others have said. Even all the young mals I've seen look really good in obedience. Not sure about tracking but their protection is good, just in general does not look as good as GSDs to me, can't quite put a finger on it, just seems to be different. I've heard some GSD people say mals are much easier to train for IPO (not saying I agree as I don't really know) I feel like they are more made for the sport/work whereas GSDs are just a good all around dog that can excel at anything be it on the IPO field or in your house playing with your kids. But I'm not all that experienced, so this is just my rather inexperienced opinion. I'd go watch some dogs work and you'll see the difference


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

It doesnt matter. When you get into the top level dogs they are all pretty **** good. Grips, drive, power, nerve etc. Its the training that makes the difference when the quality of the dog is there. Breed has little to do with it.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Malinois certainly do excel at IPO. A good Malinois is fast, precise, very intense, driven and bites well. This is the reason they are valued and perform so well as LE K-9's and MWD's. 

Certainly, there are excellent GSD's that excel at IPO as well. There are many top GSD's that can compete with BM's in IPO. There is little difference in performance between a very high drive, clear headed GSD and a Malinois. Top dogs of both breeds are precise, flashy, excellent grips and can track extremely well. 

I work both breeds everyday and I own / handle dogs of both breeds everyday. Boomer has been an exceptional hard surface and IPO tracking dog, Boru is equally as good only more intense, if that is possible. Boomer would have been a National Level IPO dog, by his genetics, temperament and drives. He may have been a better IPO dog than Police dog and he has been a super Police dog. Boru, my Malinois / Dutch Shepherd X is going to be a far better patrol dog than a sport dog. 

It really depends on the dog and a good dog is a good dog. If you look at the AWDF Nationals, the Malinois certainly seem to clean up. I suppose part of the reason is the top GSD handlers don't compete there and set their sights on the USA Nationals and WUSV. 

Comparing the two, Obedience can be very similar with good dogs, flashy and precise. Both breeds can be exceptional trackers. Strong dogs of both breeds can do excellent bite work. Yes, the Malinois as a generality can be more intense, but there are some very intense GSD's out there. Malinois can be hectic if not trained properly and that can effect the quality of the grip. GSD's can be more clear headed, which can lead to better grips. 

Malinois are excellent working dogs just like GSD's are. Often, it boils down to preference and what you can or want to handle.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

It's first important to remember that german shepherds were not bred by Max von Stephanitz to excel at one thing, rather to be an all around good working dog. Solid B average student at every subject vs. someone that gets straight As in Math but flunks gym and history, for example. 

Malinois excel at the sport, and really most similar working venues. I like to compare them as the german shepherd is eager to please and wait for instruction, the malinois is already 2 steps ahead of you. Their drive can make them easier to work in protection - on the other hand, you can get very hectic dogs. I think anymore it is easier to find a good malinois litter vs. a good german shepherd litter, but it's still not hard to find a good german shepherd.

Malinois are a lot more vocal in sport. It use to be a vocal german shepherd would get pointed. Outside of the bark and hold, they are mostly silent. Vs. a malinois that is likely to be whining the entire trial. Judges use to only seeing german shepherds initially pointed them for this too, now it's more accepted as just what they do.

I've seen some very strong, hard, good malinois pointed for the bark and hold because they had a high pitched bark. Judge said the dog wasn't serious. She must not have been looking while he was on the bite then.....

I think german shepherds can be more engaged with the handler, which is starting to win more favor. I see a lot more top competitors with malinois (and arguably, german shepherds as well) that have very stiff, robotic obedience routines. Now judges are wanting to see engagement, excitement in the dog. I think sometimes that's easier to see in german shepherds (probably because they mature a lot slower so you can still see that goofy puppy bounce in a 3 or 4 yr old dog).

I've seen a competitor reamed by a judge because his malinois was too robotic. Perfect obedience routine on a technical level, but the dog never wagged it's tail once. Things like that. Again, granted, I think a lot of this is more "old school" training mentality, and I would bet a german shepherd trained and handled by him would work with the same body language. 

Really, what it comes down to, what type of dog do YOU like to handle? Anymore, IPO is a rather worthless breed test. Rarely do you find decoys that truly push and test a dog. If they did, most club level dogs would likely be run off the field. I love german shepherds and can't imagine owning or working a malinois. At the same time, I've had the thought process that depending on how far I want to go in the sport, I may want "more" in a dog in the future, and that's likely to be found in a malinois.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Interesting opinion. It seems everyone has seen different things. For instance, I have heard from some, that it is GSDS who are more vocal and Mals more lively and engaged with their handlers. 

Your comment about litters: Did you mean it is easier to find more "good" sport dogs in a Mal litter vs. a GSD litter?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

gsdluvr said:


> Interesting opinion. It seems everyone has seen different things. For instance, I have heard from some, that it is GSDS who are more vocal and Mals more lively and engaged with their handlers.
> 
> Your comment about litters: Did you mean it is easier to find more "good" sport dogs in a Mal litter vs. a GSD litter?


No, I think it's easier to find a good working mal litter overall because between showlines and BYBs there are so many more poorly bred german shepherds out there. For every good working line breeding you probably have 20 bad breedings. Vs. malinois, statistically, the percentage of good breedings is much higher.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Anubis_Star said:


> No, I think it's easier to find a good working mal litter overall because between showlines and BYBs there are so many more poorly bred german shepherds out there. For every good working line breeding you probably have 20 bad breedings. Vs. malinois, statistically, the percentage of good breedings is much higher.


Popularity of the breeds. If malinios were as popular as gsds the numbers would be different. I think you'd run into more issues such as nerves and temperament. 
The average person/beginner most likely would get better results from a gsd.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> Popularity of the breeds. If malinios were as popular as gsds the numbers would be different. I think you'd run into more issues such as nerves and temperament.
> The average person/beginner most likely would get better results from a gsd.


Oh I 100% agree with you, that is exactly why it's easier to find a good working malinois. They just aren't as popular and therefor poorly bred. And about handling a good german shepherd vs. a good malinois.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Anubis_Star said:


> Oh I 100% agree with you, that is exactly why it's easier to find a good working malinois. They just aren't as popular and therefor poorly bred. And about handling a good german shepherd vs. a good malinois.


For now....


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I certainly think they would be great as their training is easy done right. I thought they were hard to calm dow to be good at a rule sport. They were the preferred dog for law enforcement as they really got into narc work and search to apprehend. To me they didn’t have the brute strength of the GSDs but made up for it in their focused work. The furry bullet in courage test was a little less of the linebacker smash of the GSDs depending on whether you played foot ball or hockey I played both as a pretty big rough house player so I’m biased. I would not want to be on the wrong side of either one in battle.LOL
in our early training there were a couple that came from ring sport. The hard part of these was training them to climb the wall not jump over it. Clearing the 1 meter jump with a 4 pound dumbbell by half again the distance then sliding to a stop in front of the handler was fun to watch.


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