# Question to Breeders regarding puppy refunds



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a co-worker who purchased a GSD puppy from a local hobby breeder. The breeder's husband works for the same company we do. 

The puppy was three months old. The breeder stated she had just had the puppy to the vet for a check up and shots. The breeder provided the shot records of the pup. She brought it home on Saturday, and by Thursday the pup was feeling bad. Friday morning she brought the puppy to the vet. The vet felt it had some sort of infection and treated it as so. Saturday the pup was very ill, so she brought it back to the clinic. The pup had Parvo. The vet advised to euthanize the puppy as he felt it would not survive. So my co-worker did. 

She called the breeder who will refund the purchase price for the puppy. 

My question is this, should the breeder hold any responsiblity for the monies spent at the vet? For what ever reason, there was not a purchase agreement. 

The vet stated that there is a 10 day incubation period for Parvo, therefore the vet feels that the pup had the virus while at the breeders.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm not going to comment on the money because I'm on the fence. I wouldn't ask for reimbursement for vet bills but I can understand why someone would.

If the pup had no symptoms at the breeder's than they might not have known the pup was sick. I hope that they contacted all the other puppy buyers to let them know however and that they are carefully disinfecting anywhere the pup was.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Big time with the parvo precautions - would not have other puppies for a while - they should talk to their vet and I would recommend contacting someone like UC Davis shelter medicine or ASPCA for good info on clearing and cleaning.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> I'm not going to comment on the money because I'm on the fence. I wouldn't ask for reimbursement for vet bills but I can understand why someone would.
> 
> If the pup had no symptoms at the breeder's than they might not have known the pup was sick. I hope that they contacted all the other puppy buyers to let them know however and that they are carefully disinfecting anywhere the pup was.


I'm positive that the breeder would not have sold the pup if she knew it was ill. Especially since there is a working relationship in the dynamics. When the co-worker purchased the pup, the breeder stated it was the only pup the bitch had.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Kind of off-topic... but if the breeder had "just had the puppy to the vet" it is highly possible that is were the pup contracted parvo from.

Maybe the breeder should ask the vet for a refund.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

gagsd - unfortunately so true . The breeder who is just a hobby breeder shows better response than some of the established breeders. She stepped up to the plate and refunded the money for the dog. She did everything , took the dog for a health check -- do you know there are many dogs sold which never see a vet prior to leaving , the breeder orders and does their own shots? . Obviously the examining vet felt the animal was healthy otherwise he would have noted it and not given a vaccination.
There are some questions of the new owners vet , who could have taken a stool sample and done a parvo test on the Friday. Obviously there is some form of parvo in the area . This would not be his only client or occurrence.
I know this is hindsight but parvo is treatable . The dog could have been put on IV fluids to keep it hydrated and ridden it out. Maybe there was no need to euthanize the dog.

The breeder should not be held responsible for any expenses . She already did more than many would in giving the refund (without a fight) . There are risks and expenses to dog ownership .

Carmen


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Especially if they didn't try to minimize contact with surfaces...

Agree, carmspack - think the breeder did a good job and parvo has some great recovery stories...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My pup survived parvo so I'm surprised the vet didn't at least try to do more. He got parvo about 5 days after we brought him back from the breeder and when we called to tell them we just wanted to make sure they had all their other pups tested and were in the clear just in case. Online it says that parvo has a 7-10 day incubation period but its just like any disease, the average is 7-10 which means there are those that show it within 2 days and others it takes 14. None of the other pups had parvo, so I found it hard to believe that he got it there, as the chances he stuck his nose in a place the others didn't are very small. It's too hard to prove where the pup could've come down with the disease, but it happened, and its really up to the breeder as to what they want to do.

I do find the vet kind of interesting, when we brought ours in with the symptoms, parvo is the first thing he tested for and started treating before the results even came back. His opinion was, lets rule out the most dangerous disease first and if its something else we can treat it after the results get back. That quick thinking and plan probably saved my dog's life.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Sometimes, unfortunately, the decision to euthanize is made due to financial issues. Not saying that is the case here as I have no idea. But depending on the vet and the severeity, it can run $200-$2000 with no guarantees.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm not aware of the reason for the vet's decision. I'm a little bias because I do not utilize the vet she uses (for her other dog as well) and I told her I didn't care for them. 

I was out of town when she took her pup to the vet. She texted me, but I didn't get the text until I returned home (left my work blackberry at home). By that time the pup was already euthanized. The vet informed her that the pup had a 10% chance of survival and that it was suffering. She has had no experiance with parvo before and couldn't stand for the puppy to be suffering. The vet told her (Saturday) that they were closing at noon and if she decided to treat the pup, she'd have to take her to the e-vet for treatment. 

I don't care for this clinic. My evil mind thinks that there was to be no money made for the clinic as they were going to send the pup off to the e-vet anyway, so they pushed for the pup to be euthanized. The total of both trips cost my co-worker over $480.00. This is just my opinon.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a vet's credo is to do no harm and to serve his patient to his best ability . That patient is the dog , not the owner, the dog .

I know this discussion will benefit nothing as a course of action has already been taken. A final , irreversible course , unfortunately.

I am really puzzled. She took the dog in to the vet on Friday where it was deemed to have some "infection" . Saturday , the very next day , he was very ill .
The statement "he had parvo". I hope that a test was done to determine this.

If the dog had just cleared the incubation period and was in the beginning of the viral outbreak , you would have had the advantage of treating it in good time , before the lining of the gut was destroyed which is why you have bloody diarrhea.

Quite possibly the disease would have had a minimal course , being kept in check somewhat till the body rallied its defenses .

If the dog were in that bad a shape that euthanasia was the only option worth considering , the dog would have had days and days of bloody diarrhea, gone into a dehydrated , lethargic state .

This was not the case , was it ?

When parvo first showed itself some 20 years or so ago I sat through 2 litters , large litters , losing not a one of them. Sanitation , isolation, hydration . Only the worst hardest hit were put on IV , the others caught early kept hydrated with an electrolyte forumula .

Is there some way this vet's practice can be peer reviewed ?

I sure would not recommend them or use them.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Just curious, but being this pup had Parvo, would any other animals at this clinic be at risk?
Does the vet office need to clean to prevent infection in any other animals?

For example, this dog was on an examining table. What would happen to the next dog on that table if it weren't cleaned properly? Are they are risk?


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

GSDGunner said:


> Just curious, but being this pup had Parvo, would any other animals at this clinic be at risk?
> Does the vet office need to clean to prevent infection in any other animals?
> 
> For example, this dog was on an examining table. What would happen to the next dog on that table if it weren't cleaned properly? Are they are risk?


Other dogs (especially puppies and older dogs) are very much at risk of being infected. If the clinic is lax at all about cleanliness, sanitation and sterilization it can cause an out break. I know Rottie breeders who will not allow their pups to touch ANY surface of the clinic unless they physically see it bleached and the people there must wash hands in front of them. Rotts can be especially hard hit with parvo, I don't blame these breeders at all, especially after one of them was hit after a 3rd set of vaccines.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

When I bring a litter to the vet for shots and/or health certificate I bring a towel for the exam table. I normally bring an extra person and the pup goes from my crate to the towel and back to the crate. My goal is for their little feet to touch nothing but my stuff.

It's probably a bit much but it makes me feel better.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

As this is my co-worker (she works in a different department) I really don't know too much about the medical history of the pup. I do know that the breeder told her that because the puppy was three months old, she wanted to get her a vet check and her second set of shots before letting her take the puppy home. According to the vet records provided by the breeder, it was the second set of shots (give by the vet) and the vet found the puppy healthy. 

As most people do, my co-worker came to me Monday and Tuesday telling me all about the puppy. She asked for training advice and I provided the contact information of my trainer. My co-worker's 12 year old daughter is home (with the grandmother) for the summer, so she was working with the pup. The pup was nearly 100% potty trained (the breeder was working on it) and had a high food drive. 

Thursday she stated the puppy had diarrhea. I asked her if it was loose or like water. She said like soft serve ice cream. I asked her about the pup's intake and she stated she gave the pup a greasey dog bone. During the day the daughter would call and give updates. The pup went from playing to sleeping and not eating anything, but she said the pup was still drinking water. That night the pup refused water, so they took her to the vet Friday morning. 

I'm not sure what all happened at the vet Friday. My co-worker had taken the day off and only texted me stating the pup was bing treated for an infection. When the pup appeared to get worse instead of improve, they rushed her back to the vet Saturday morning. She said the vet tested for parvo and didn't even get all the way down the hall before the color came back bright red. I suppose she was speaking of the test. I'm not familar with Parvo testing. 

I feel guilty because when she mentioned the pup had loose stools I should have discussed Parvo with her. Just as a precaution. But at that point I was thinking it was due to the bone and parvo never crossed my mind. I pushed taking the pup to the vet as puppies can dehydrate quickly. 

I feel guilty because I didn't bring my blackberry with me. I would have gotten her text. She knows I'm no expert - but she was looking for help. 

It is what it is. What has happened has happened. She will no longer use this vet because of their lack of compassion when discussing the pup. She had her 12 year old daughter with her and she was very upset. They never even acknowledged that this was heart breaking to them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Betty said:


> When I bring a litter to the vet for shots and/or health certificate I bring a towel for the exam table. I normally bring an extra person and the pup goes from my crate to the towel and back to the crate. My goal is for their little feet to touch nothing but my stuff.
> 
> It's probably a bit much but it makes me feel better.


Me too! Towel on the scale, towel on the table, in the crate and I make that EH! noise I do with my dogs to the poor staff if it seems like they might touch the ground. I know it's still there...the parvo...but I feel a little better doing this. 

The vet office should have an isolation room for cases like parvo. They bleach and bleach shoes, and they close off exam rooms that have parvo cases to dogs for a certain period of time. 

Parvo is very sad - and people don't seem to have an awareness of it, in general. No judgement in that statement, it just is what it is. We can all help to educate of course. Maybe not to parvonoia like some of us suffer from, but to know the signs symptoms and REAL treatments for it.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Take your own thermometer.... that really drives the vet staff crazy.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I've recently heard about a puppy with parvo who was treated with Tamiflu and it helped recovery significantly. Anyone else heard about this?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I've recently heard about a puppy with parvo who was treated with Tamiflu and it helped recovery significantly. Anyone else heard about this?


Yes - but just in a general sense - last year sometime....

As the pup had 2 shots...I am really surprised that he would have contacted parvo........I wonder!!! 

What a shame - sounds like a cluster! Hopefully that vet loses alot of clients as he doesn't not sound like he has any compassion for his 4 legged clients.

Lee


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## tsteves (Jun 7, 2011)

Sad for your friend that had to euthanize her new baby. Good job to the breeder though for being so good about it and a big ol slap on the wrist of the vet that did not test for Parvo the first time they were there or try to save the pups life.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I've recently heard about a puppy with parvo who was treated with Tamiflu and it helped recovery significantly. Anyone else heard about this?


Canine Parvovirus I really like this site for their parvo info. Tamiflu is a yes: Treatment but as an extra.

 Thermometer - why did I not think of that!


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

When we get a suspected parvo case come in, they use a back entrance and a different room. When the pup leaves or stays in isolation, we thoroughly clean with a parvocide and then use a spray cleaner disinfectent on anything the puppy or any of us have touched. We will also glove up and gown up to treat the puppy each time we go into the isolation room. Spray our shoes, etc.
Parvo is so very tricky. You can have a puppy that has had two or three vaccinations and still contract parvo, though usually a slighter case. That is why you use a series of vaccinations, to try to get the pup immunity when its mom's immunity is going up and down, but it can be missed and illness can happen then.
As far as euthanizing, it would depend on how much money a client wants to spend and what exactly the symptoms are. A pup, even a 12 week old one can crash from dehydration really fast and then the intestional complications can add to it. 
Doesn't sound like this vet was very caring about his client, almost like he wanted to go home and it was either euthanize or take somewhere else, but don't waste his time. Like everything, there are good and bad vets.
I am sorry this happened to your friend and her daughter.


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