# Breeding



## HopeforGermanshepherds (Jul 21, 2017)

If I breed my gsd mix collie and a pure bred shepherd what would that make


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

A whole bunch of mutts.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you can not claim them to be GSD -- they will be mixed breed 

the quality of breeding partner will be severely limited -- no one with 
serious interest in the breed would provide their male and especially not their female

Kazel said it -- a bunch of mutts


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just in case you are asking about the mathematical outcome, assuming your GSD and Collie mix is 1/2 and 1/2, the the resulting puppies would be 1/4 Collie and 3/4 GSD. But it's not a good idea to breed your mixed breed, as previous posters have said. There are literally 1000s of mixed breed dogs sitting in shelters around the country needing homes already!


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## HopeforGermanshepherds (Jul 21, 2017)

Here?s a photo of him some people say He doesn?t look like a mix


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HopeforGermanshepherds said:


> If I breed my gsd mix collie and a pure bred shepherd what would that make


Collepherds. Probably 13 or 14 of them. I'd expect a medium-large sized dog with better than average herding ability (not necessarily better than collies or GSDs or other purebred herding dogs). They'd be better than average to carry the gene that makes them deathly allergic to ivermectin. 

Not much more to say, they will be susceptible to joint issues, digestive issues, skin issues, heart issues, eye issues and temperament issues.

Probably pretty dogs, that make good pets for the right people. 

Did you mention why you are interested in this match?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He doesn't look like a mix, was it the sire or the dam that was the collie?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

there is nothing about him that definitely says mix. But at the same time there is nothing about him that says well-bred either. 
And,not knowing his ancestors health history and pedigree, there is no way to make responsible choices on a good match for him even if he had exemplary traits that would be good to pass on.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

Piecing together elements from Hope's other posts - 

Hope is 14 yrs old and has this GSD mix that does not look like the purported collie daddy. Hope did post a pic of the momma and a male sibling from a prior litter of the GSD and collie pairing. (Hrm, what chance that sibling is not fixed and is the daddy of Hope's pup? Would this inbreeding have resulted in the greater GSD appearance of Hope's pup?)

Hope is also looking to purchase a female GSD in the vicinity of $300.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I can picture the Craigslist ad already....


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## HopeforGermanshepherds (Jul 21, 2017)

selzer said:


> He doesn't look like a mix, was it the sire or the dam that was the collie?


 dam


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## HopeforGermanshepherds (Jul 21, 2017)

i asked the lady who gave me the dog said
That the sire didn?t have any problems she got her from a breeder and the border collie is a service dog and I don?t think they have any problems but maybe the ancestors had a bit of problems..


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> Just in case you are asking about the mathematical outcome, assuming your GSD and Collie mix is 1/2 and 1/2, the the resulting puppies would be 1/4 Collie and 3/4 GSD. But it's not a good idea to breed your mixed breed, as previous posters have said. There are literally 1000s of mixed breed dogs sitting in shelters around the country needing homes already!


Make that 'millions'. And that is in "just" the shelters, not counting the strays on the streets, the ones that are chained in back yards, killed on the roads etc.
Enjoy your dog and if your are interested in a nice mutt, you know where you can find one that is already on this earth.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

HopeforGermanshepherds said:


> i asked the lady who gave me the dog said
> That the sire didn?t have any problems she got her from a breeder and the border collie is a service dog and I don?t think they have any problems but maybe the ancestors had a bit of problems..


 well what are you looking to exactly. Which of his traits are you so amazed by that he must be bred? What does he have to offer his pups to make him breed worthy? What producers in his pedigree are you looking to really showcase and which are you trying to minimize? Do you even have a goal or direction in mind or are you hoping to make a few hundred bucks from each pup that you can sell as a gsd?


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## HopeforGermanshepherds (Jul 21, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> HopeforGermanshepherds said:
> 
> 
> > i asked the lady who gave me the dog said
> ...


 well I was raised with mutts my entire life but my question is why do people hate mutts so much I?m an animal lover when I?m older I?m gonna buy a house with lots of land and I?m gonna rescue animals from around the world as well I?ve asked my parents for a mutt at the shelter and they say no because we have 2 pitbulls and they don?t get along with other dogs


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

no one is against mutts. Simply against creating more. The point of breeding is to produce the healthiest dogs possibly, both mentally and physically. That means having a purpose in mind for what you want to produce, how to achieve that outcome and knowing the genetic background of the dogs you choose to breed to insure that they can contribute to that "big picture".

Having a dog of unknown background makes that impossible. The same criteria is used for breeding purebred dogs. Simply being pure or mixed doesn't make a dog worthy or unworthy. 

There are millions of mutts right now waiting for homes. There is no reason to produce more without some purpose in mind other than simply having puppies to be sold as pets. There are already innumerable dogs that fit that bill


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, the first requirement for breeding ought to be that the owners are responsible adults. Meaning, people of age who are not living in the home of parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, etc. I really think you should own your home. My reasoning is that you shouldn't be in the position of someone telling you the dogs have to go. No one with a litter of 2 week old puppies should have to convince a landlord that they will keep them quieter, or a father that they will clean the whelping box more often and it won't smell so bad. 

Given you are a responsible adult, unless you bought the puppy on a limited registration or made an agreement not to breed the dog when you purchased or was given the dog, the decision to breed your dog is up to you. Might they end up in a shelter? Yes, if you cannot find them homes yourself, and you cannot manage multiple growing puppies, than it would be better probably to even use a shelter to find them appropriate homes. There are problems with this of course. But if you try to raise half a dozen puppies that require a lot of training and socialization, it will be bad for the puppies and for you. So bad, for the pups that they may suffer irreversible damage in character/behavior. Understanding this early enough will put the puppies where they are likely to find homes when they are most likely to be easily homed, and before they suffer from being too long in the pack. So as bad as it is, landing them in a shelter _could _actually be better for them than staying with you.

And yes, people bring home mutt-puppies. There are millions of dogs in shelters, a few more will not change the world. -- There it is an unacceptable attitude. It is selfishness. But because a million or millions of selfish people before you put their mongrels together to produce puppies, you too are labeled selfish if you want to make a litter of puppies out of your dogs. People make selfish decisions every day, perhaps every hour. Put chemicals on your lawn to make it greener? Well, someone could have really used toilet paper at your local food pantry and that money could have been used for that. Actually, most of our choices throughout the day, could be considered selfish. I spent half an hour playing my guitar, could have used that half hour ringing the salvation army bell outside the grocery store. 

I guess you see what I am getting at. The dog is yours. If you have the money and space, and nobody can throw you or your dogs out, and you did not get your dog with the understanding that you would not breed the dog, then it is up to you. 

There are 1001 reasons not to breed your dog. But if you really, really want puppies, you will breed your dog. It's not illegal. Do me a favor and don't pretend it was an accident. A person who takes responsibility for their part of the situation, we can work with; those who insist that accidents happen are hopeless. 

Now, it is up to you. But there are some things, some basics that you will want to do, if you are any type of dog-person at all:

1. Don't get yourself into a situation where someone else has control over the decisions for your pregnant or lactating dam and her litter. If you are in school, in college, living with your folks, renting, or if you have an unstable/abusive partner, then it would be better to wait, not forever, but until you are in a situation where you have more control, are independent.

2. For her health and emotional development, please do not breed your dog until she is 2 years old and in excellent condition. 

That's it. Oh, there are an armful of hoops you ought to jump though before breeding your dog, AKC paperwork on the top of the list, genetic health screenings, and temperament tests, and so on and so forth, some of which your dog is simply not eligible for. Plenty to think about, like who you are going to give the puppies to, and how you will raise the litter and so on. 

You can PM me, and I will help you with whelping and raising the puppies questions when the time comes. When you want to prepare for whelping, setting up an area for the pups, what to have on hand, what books to have with you, etc. I am not constantly on line though, so if it gets close and you need my phone number, I can give you that too, just in case. I don't have to agree with the decision to breed your mixed-breed dog, to have puppies, but that doesn't mean I won't give you information if I can.


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## HopeforGermanshepherds (Jul 21, 2017)

selzer said:


> Well, the first requirement for breeding ought to be that the owners are responsible adults. Meaning, people of age who are not living in the home of parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, etc. I really think you should own your home. My reasoning is that you shouldn't be in the position of someone telling you the dogs have to go. No one with a litter of 2 week old puppies should have to convince a landlord that they will keep them quieter, or a father that they will clean the whelping box more often and it won't smell so bad.
> 
> Given you are a responsible adult, unless you bought the puppy on a limited registration or made an agreement not to breed the dog when you purchased or was given the dog, the decision to breed your dog is up to you. Might they end up in a shelter? Yes, if you cannot find them homes yourself, and you cannot manage multiple growing puppies, than it would be better probably to even use a shelter to find them appropriate homes. There are problems with this of course. But if you try to raise half a dozen puppies that require a lot of training and socialization, it will be bad for the puppies and for you. So bad, for the pups that they may suffer irreversible damage in character/behavior. Understanding this early enough will put the puppies where they are likely to find homes when they are most likely to be easily homed, and before they suffer from being too long in the pack. So as bad as it is, landing them in a shelter _could _actually be better for them than staying with you.
> 
> ...


 I was wondering what would of happened if I was to breed them well u see I?m to young and I have To neutere my dog as well I have dreams to accomplish and that is saving mutts lives buts that?s when I?m older because I?m too young and I also don?t feel like breeding him, I?m an animal lover?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HopeforGermanshepherds said:


> well I was raised with mutts my entire life but my question is why do people hate mutts so much I?m an animal lover when I?m older I?m gonna buy a house with lots of land and I?m gonna rescue animals from around the world as well I?ve asked my parents for a mutt at the shelter and they say no because we have 2 pitbulls and they don?t get along with other dogs


Oh, I think folks here would be just as adamant that you not breed even if your pup was purebred, with full AKC registration. As guardians of the breed, perhaps they should be. 

But it is true that 75% of dogs in shelters are mixed-breed dogs. And many of them do not ever make it out of shelters. We all know the stories about how they kill the unwanted dogs, it's getting better. Usually they use drugs to shut them down. There are still gas chambers in some places. And the heart stick is cheap and effective, but rather gruesome. When I was a kid they'd wet them down and electrocute them. You could smell the pound all the way down at the bus stop. 

Really, no one is going to encourage you to breed your dog. Whether it is the desire to improve the temperament and health of GSDs, or reduce the number of shelter dogs out there, or to be able to keep intact dogs without having to pay more money or jump through hoops because there are so many folks breeding irresponsibly that people have encouraged legislatures to pass laws requiring mandatory spay/neuter at an early age, breeding flippantly actually hurts all of us. 

It sounds great, and it is fun to have a litter of puppies. But you don't generally see the heartache that often accompanies breeding. Like struggling to keep a baby alive from 3 weeks upward, with surgeries and thousands in veterinary bills only to lose her at a few months of age because of liver shunts. This lady had one of her bitches returned to her, in heat, at one year of age, because on my advice, she told her she was not going to give her papers for the dog she gave her -- no money changed hands. Pup was 1 year old in heat and they wanted to breed her. Dropped her off at my friends home that night, totally emaciated and scared and in heat -- that is heart breaking. The bitch lives with her mother in law now on the edge of their property -- good ending, really. I suggested an immediate spay, because I felt confident they had already bred her, and in her condition and at her age she should not have to try to raise a litter of puppies. I my friend's litter for her. Six puppies. 1 lost to liver shunts at about 3 months old. 1 returned because the people they went to turned out to be scum. They kept two boys, and other two went to good friends.

Talk about heart ache, I got a call about a year ago for a pup that was not yet a year old, one of the R- litter. Rosa I think. The owner had 4 surgeries in the beginning of the year, and he called me to take the puppy back. No problems with her, he said, but not able to care for her. I picked her up the next morning before work. And I set it up for her to go directly to the trainer, so that he could eval her temperament, have a few days and help in the placement of her. She was going to go to my friend's nephew. She was emaciated. The guy had her in a crate, he gave me her food. I was shocked. I said something, he said she wouldn't eat. She ate a burger in the car with me on the way to the trainers. She ate steak from the trainer. She ate food. She had no problem eating. I think the guy was just so depressed he wasn't able to remember to feed her. She was starving. Another happy ending, she lives on a farm with her owner, and attends college classes with him. I saw her on Memorial Day event, and she was still thin -- she changed hands around March around her 1 year birthday. But she was already looking better, and completely bonded with her new owner. 

It isn't something you go into lightly. You have to ask yourself, can I do that? Can I drop everything and run and pick up one of my puppies, who is now a young, sexually mature dog, and bring it back to the current pack? Or take it to a trainer and have a new home lined up for it?


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## HopeforGermanshepherds (Jul 21, 2017)

selzer said:


> HopeforGermanshepherds said:
> 
> 
> > well I was raised with mutts my entire life but my question is why do people hate mutts so much I?m an animal lover when I?m older I?m gonna buy a house with lots of land and I?m gonna rescue animals from around the world as well I?ve asked my parents for a mutt at the shelter and they say no because we have 2 pitbulls and they don?t get along with other dogs
> ...


 My parents have Two pitbulls and had a litter it was kinda cute and annoying at the same time because you would have to hear them cry in the nights I know the struggle having to take care of puppy?s but they were purebreds also weren?t German Shepard?s once mutts but then bred to make a breed


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HopeforGermanshepherds said:


> I was wondering what would of happened if I was to breed them well u see I?m to young and I have To neutere my dog as well I have dreams to accomplish and that is saving mutts lives buts that?s when I?m older because I?m too young and I also don?t feel like breeding him, I?m an animal lover?


Oy, punctuation would help here. 

I do not know how old your bitch is. If she is at least two, she would probably have a litter of puppies between 1 and 14 puppies -- average of 7-10 puppies, and mixed-litters for some ungodly reason tend to be larger. So let's figure 10 puppies. They will look like German Shepherd dogs of poor quality. I am not saying yours are. But some collie traits that are in your bitch not not showing, will show up in the puppies. Their ears may not stand, and they may. They may have skinny collie muzzles. They may have strange coloring. They may be high energy, highly intelligent, nerve bags. No one can say. But you cannot take a mixed dog and outcross it to a purebred, and expect to have a uniform litter that has the traits you want from each breed. 

You are too young. It is hard, but this is an adult undertaking. Use this time between now and then to make a plan to become independent, so you can make this your dream. Use this time to study the breed, and learn what you like. Use this time to love and train the dogs you do have, because that is awesome experience that no one can take from you. Spay your bitch and get a PAL on her, and take her to shows and get an RN or a CD on her, a CGC, teach her agility -- this training will help you when you are breeding or rescuing -- both will bring you calls from owners that need help. Behavior/training help. 

To be a great breeder, you have to become an expert in nutrition, animal husbandry, training, the breed itself, pedigrees. 

You are young -- that is great, you know what you want, and you have time on your side. You just can't see it from where you are. But take your time. With dogs, we tend to rush from one thing to another. It isn't a race. Relax, take your time, and train, train, train your dogs. When you are ready to start your breeding program, you will know exactly what you are looking for in a bitch and all the ducks will be lined up in a row. 

Good luck.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

selzer said:


> HopeforGermanshepherds said:
> 
> 
> > Oy, punctuation would help here
> ...


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Ugh. GSD x Collies or Border Collies are the most common mutts around here. People can't give puppies away, nevermind charge money for them. Heck, I've volunteered at my local shelter when they've gotten whole litters in. Know what happened to most of those 8-10 week old puppies? The back room then the dumpster. Not much else you can do when you have 11 kennel runs and 3 litters of 8-10 puppies and nobody what wants to buy them. 

Seriously, the last thing that is needed are more of these mutts.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HopeforGermanshepherds said:


> My parents have Two pitbulls and had a litter it was kinda cute and annoying at the same time because you would have to hear them cry in the nights I know the struggle having to take care of puppy?s but they were purebreds also weren?t *German Shepard?s once mutts but then bred to make a breed[/QUOTE*]
> 
> There is a book, I think you can get from Amazon, I think. Not cheap. Ask for it for Christmas. It is by Max Von Stephanitz. It is called, The German Shepherd in Word and Picture. I think. It is by the founder of the breed.
> 
> ...


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