# Tell me about this (hypothetical) breeding



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Breeding outcome

Axel vom Barth

Katya v. Hügelblick

What's the good, bad, and the ugly? I know the sire personally.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so I will dare to answer , personally, my interpretation.

this is not a breeding that would be of interest to me.

why? lack of balance in the genetics - starting to get narrow into the "extreme" sport type -- too much back massing on Fero . and Mona Dollenwiese . 
*Linebreeding - 5 generations*


5 - 5,5........................................... in V Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
4 - 5............................................. in SG Timmy von der bösen Nachbarschaft
5 - 5............................................. in V Askia vom Froschgraben
the female Katya

*Linebreeding - 5 generations*


5,5 - 5........................................... in V Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
4 - 5............................................. in V Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft
 
I did take the time to go back on both Barth and Katya's pedigree . Selected their 3rd generation and checked on those sires and dams and on each on went back to see what their linebreeding and general breeding was.

Pedigree continues to be narrowed and becoming more specialized in the selection of one type , rather than over all balance sort of a sport vs work direction .


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Good input Carmen. 

I have my own thoughts but I'm know where near as knowledgeable as other and will not post them. I'm curious what others think. 

Also don't forget, that pedigree is only one part. You know the dogs so you have to look at the individual dogs as well.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm with Carmen, I have walked away from some nice breedings because too much Fero and T litter Narbarschaft. Not saying you can't get a good dog, but the genetic makeup of the pups would be going in same direction as the WGSL people did, just with different priorities. Also, where do you breed the pups of this litter....you almost eliminate all the good West dogs because most of them go to these same genetics.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't know enough to comment on the pedigree as a whole, but did note that the breeding would go back on Fero 8 times in 7 generation - 5x through the T Litter (3x Troll, including once through Mona Dollenwiese, and 2x Timmy), 2x Greif von der Kine, 1x Pearle vom Zeuterner Himmilrich. 

A few questions for Carmen and Cliff based upon the comments above (or anyone else who shares a similar view):

Are the concerns above: (1) too much Fero; (2) too much Fero in the context of the overall pedigree; (3) too much of one particular dog, whether it be Fero or any other dog; or (4) too much T Litter? 

In addition, given the prevalence of Fero in pedigrees, does the path to Fero impact your analysis? For instance, in regards to the T Litter, does it impact your view that Fero is coming through both Troll and Timmy? One often hears that Troll and Timmy were different and produced differently. Likewise, does the fact that Fero is coming through sources other than the T Litter such as Grief von der Kine (2x) impact your view? 

I do not mean to put you on the spot and, as someone trying to learn, I genuinely appreciate the knowledge you share.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For me, yes it makes a difference if Fero comes from different sources. Say in 7 generation the pedigree went through T litter twice, and then two alternate paths such as vd Kine, or Tim Abfhur, then I would have no problem in general sense if the dam and sire meshed.....but 7 or 8 time in seven generations?....nah, I don't care who it comes through that is too much for me genetically.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

too much on overall narrowing , in addition to one particular stud. If there are 4 founding regional types , this is narrowed and continues to narrow using only one . 

Lack of balance.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I'm with Carmen and the others - you need to get her away from all the Fero...

Are you looking to breed her? What about Django v h Jurjim???

Line-breeding for the progency of V Django von Haus Jurjim and Katya von Hugelblick

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay now we are talking -- good choice this Django . He opens up the pedigree, brings in balance , brings in some missing genetics that Bernd Lierberg and the dogs which are rich sources to herding lines, Bert Knufken, Storm's Perry Beilstein and Marko Cellerland , generous Racker Itztal , herding , Seffe Busecker Schloss who taken to Mike Bungalow made a click combination in Eros . You have good source to Gildo through tuff Link Muikenshof. Old working DDR Arko Grafental , Ingo Rudigen etc. , solid stable Umsa .

What you are doing is bringing in stable power , active aggression , bidability and versatile utility through herding genetics , opening the pedigree - giving the pedigree a future , and very important you are starting to add intelligence . Drive with intelligence . 

Plus you have nice structure - and hips in the good and normal range -

nice choice ms wolfstraum


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Where is Django? Ironically I went to his owners website and one of the testimonials about him was from Jackie Camp who I actually know and she has seen Katya work many times. Always surprised how small the world is


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Thanks Carmen! I have a Django daughter that I am hoping is bred right now....no line breeding, but the backmassing is very appealing!

He belongs to Liz King - she is in NC I think....husband is a QH trainer....I loved my litter from him, and hope to use him on another Csabre daughter next year.

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good control , good fight 



 Von Haus King Stud Page

black to black -- get all black


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks Carmen, Cliff, and Lee for the information and good luck to Hunter.


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