# Cesar Millian . . .



## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

I was watching the Dog Whisperer and Cesar had this blue vest for a dog. It said on the vest;
IN TRAINING
No Touch 
No Talk 
No Eye Contact

Does anyone know where I could find one of these?
Thanks!


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

I would like to know too.


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

ebay has a few that say dog in training do no disturb.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Think I spelled his name wrong . . . 
People always wanna make friends with Bo. Bo does not want to make friends with strangers. This may get the message across . . .


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## fkeeley (Aug 31, 2006)

therapydogvest.com has a few choices....and you can get a custom made one too.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Pretty much any vendor that sells Service Dog vests will have the vest and "in training" patches, but I have never seen any place that sells "No Touch", "No Talk", "No Eye Contact". The closest I've seen is, "Do not Pet", which most Service Dog suppliers sell.

You could buy a plain vest and then have someone embroider the text for you, either directly to the vest or on a patch that you can attach to the vest via Velcro.

You could also make your own vest if you wanted, they are not difficult to make at all. When my Abby was a mascot for Army Recruiting, I made her a camouflaged vest and I put Velcro to add her name tapes to it. I've had a couple of different name tapes made with "Abby" and also "Therapy Dog" and "Recruiting Dog" and they're very easy and convenient to switch. I now use the same vest for Ronja, and just had new name tapes made at the local surplus store.

If you wanted to go that route, I recommend 1800nametape.com Home Page to get the tapes done. They will do just about any combination of background and text color, and will do all of them on Velcro or without Velcro if you wanted to just sew them on. I got some nice black ones with yellow text there for Abby's old collar.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Tanks guys!


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

I think I saw that episode! He told the lady that he made it for her dog (boston terrier if I remember right?). So I don't think he just purchased it, but had it made.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I don't want to be an alarmist, but these kind of things can pierce liability veils. The absolute worst are the "Caution K-9" stickers for vehicles.

If, God forbid, your dog ever bit someone, these types of acknowledgements could establish your dog was at fault because he is in "Training" and "No Eye Contact" was plainly stated. 

At best they eliminate avenues of defense, and at worst they establish known risk.....neither is good for your dog in a bite case.

The systemic cure is a well socialized dog not signage.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> I don't want to be an alarmist, but these kind of things can pierce liability veils. The absolute worst are the "Caution K-9" stickers for vehicles.
> 
> If, God forbid, your dog ever bit someone, these types of acknowledgements could establish your dog was at fault because he is in "Training" and "No Eye Contact" was plainly stated.
> 
> ...


Okay, how do you get there? I mean to a well socialized dog when you have well intentioned people with un-welcomed contact? At some point, you have to communicate to others to leave them be. I respect those signs and appreciate knowing that dogs are "working" to be the best version of themselves and even though I may have good intentions, they may not welcome my advance as they are learning to overcome their issues.

Those acknowledgements should be standards of etiquette, for greeting *any* strange dog and drilled into people. That should be the concern foremost than any potential litigation. IMHO.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Kelly's Buddy said:


> Okay, how do you get there? I mean to a well socialized dog when you have well intentioned people with un-welcomed contact? At some point, you have to communicate to others to leave them be. I respect those signs and appreciate knowing that dogs are "working" to be the best version of themselves and even though I may have good intentions, they may not welcome my advance as they are learning to overcome their issues.
> 
> Those acknowledgements should be standards of etiquette, for greeting *any* strange dog and drilled into people. That should be the concern foremost than any potential litigation. IMHO.


What "should be" and the law are two different things. I agree there should be etiquette, but the law says if Joe Public fails to follow that expected etiquette in a public venue...and there is a bite, you're liable and the dog is exposed to euthanasia....because of "reasonable care". You as a GSD owner are obligated to exercise reasonable care, and if you anticipate a bite risk, than reasonable care is to avoid public venues with said dog. All signage will do is affirm your awarness of the risk, and increase your financial exposure to punitive damages.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I agree with Wayne - I cringe when I see caution signs and do not do this signs....

I have found that by putting a vest looking thing or even a backpack (Ruff Wear Performance Dog Gear | Dog Harness | Dog Boots) on a GSD, people THINK they are in training. I am not doing it for any reason other than it's easier for the dog to carry the poop bags, but people will wait to see if they can approach. 

When I DID have a dangerous dog, I was very firm with people about approaching and still had some who would want to pet him even when he was snarking at them. There is nothing in the world you can do to combat that - if someone is that "unwise" you cannot help them. 

What you can do is body block and use your firm voice - the same you use with your dog - when it gets to that. I put myself in front of my dog and tell the people, firmly, no. I will even EH! someone if needed. 

Then, once you've broken that cycle of zombie walk toward the dog, you can say the dog was abused (even if it wasn't - people always think any dog with an issue was abused even if it is temperament issues) and people then generally accept and back away.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

I see. Pardon my sarcasm, I guess, since there is no way for me to know if my dog will bite, I must limit socialization to those people I am certain that won't sue me.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I agree with Wayne - I cringe when I see caution signs and do not do this signs....
> 
> I have found that by putting a vest looking thing or even a backpack (Ruff Wear Performance Dog Gear | Dog Harness | Dog Boots) on a GSD, people THINK they are in training. I am not doing it for any reason other than it's easier for the dog to carry the poop bags, but people will wait to see if they can approach.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I agree. If I can't warn them with signage, it will be with abrupt rudeness. Sorry, I'm not meaning to be snarky about this. People are beginning to tick me off. I see a sign, I heed it's warning. The law is sucking in this, people need to be aware of risk, and take responsibility for their adherence of lack thereof.

Example: I'm at Mount Baker at the site of a beautiful but dangerous waterfall. It's fenced, warnings are in place that the rocks are mossy and very slippery, cross the line and you WILL DIE. Why did they post that? Are they admitting they have a hazard? Heck yeah. In the parking lot is a blunt sign that reads: Here are the names of those that failed to heed the warning signs and fell to their death, please don't make us add your name to the list.

Guess what, I'm not crossing that line for a picture. 

I guess I'm preaching to the choir, so I'll stop my rant.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Kelly's Buddy said:


> I see. Pardon my sarcasm, I guess, since there is no way for me to know if my dog will bite, I must limit socialization to those people I am certain that won't sue me.


Hey, it's your dog, do what you think best since you know your dog best.
Anyone who approaches a strange dog without caution is downright stupid.
By the way euthanasia means putting a dog out of it misery because it is suffering. Anything else is execution.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> Hey, it's your dog, do what you think best since you know your dog best.
> Anyone who approaches a strange dog without caution is downright stupid.
> By the way euthanasia means putting a dog out of it misery because it is suffering. Anything else is execution.


Thanks PaddyD. 

When I went to meet Kelly, her parents were in the yard being exercised by their owner/trainer. I KNEW they were amped up by the play. I told my wife those very words. No eye contact with them, no talk and no touch. We're on their property, their domain, not ours and it's their rules. As we stood their talking with the lady, the big male, Kelly's daddy came over, sniffed and PUT his ball in my hand, and then waited patiently for me to throw it.

Afterward, the lady commented to us on our "greeting" etiquette and told me how much she appreciated us contributing to their training. 

It's funny how a few words can make an impact and educate a person. If it occurred more frequently, we'd have less doggie executions. IMHO.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

This ultimately is the handler's job to intercept, bodyblock, use your energy to BLOCK people from approaching and petting your dog. Vests with signs actually instead draw people to STARE, and follow alongside your dog reading aloud: "Pleeeease donnnnn't petttt meeeeeee I'mmmm worrrrkinnnng... HAHAHAHAAA, How cute is THAT!!" followed by "What's he learnin" Kin I pet him? But I ASKED, first!!" Vests seem like great ideas, but can draw in determined, pushy people with impulsive inclinations that ultimately, you would have to bodyblock and verbally correct those people anyway.
Basicly, got an anxious or aggressive dog? Be your dog's advocate by blocking (physically and verbally) the gawkers and grabbers.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Brightelf said:


> This ultimately is the handler's job to intercept, bodyblock, use your energy to BLOCK people from approaching and petting your dog. Vests with signs actually instead draw people to STARE, and follow alongside your dog reading aloud: "Pleeeease donnnnn't petttt meeeeeee I'mmmm worrrrkinnnng... HAHAHAHAAA, How cute is THAT!!" followed by "What's he learnin" Kin I pet him? But I ASKED, first!!" Vests seem like great ideas, but can draw in determined, pushy people with impulsive inclinations that ultimately, you would have to bodyblock and verbally correct those people anyway.
> Basicly, got an anxious or aggressive dog? Be your dog's advocate by blocking (physically and verbally) the gawkers and grabbers.


So what the heck, gives another reason for me to do-pop someone right?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Wouldn't it just be more easy to socialize your GSD such that Joe Public and his kids can approach and pet your dog? I struggle with why someone would be in a public venue with a GSD that did not have the nerve and socialization to be there? Regardless of how "stupid" you think people are, it is the dog owner's responsibility......and rest assured, if your dog bites that stupid person, they can sue, take your money, and the dog's life no matter what term you elect to apply.

I truly believe if your dog's nerve is such that a unfamiliar child cannot randomly approach to pet without being at risk, you have no business with that dog in public. It is your responsibility not the stupid people's.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> Wouldn't it just be more easy to socialize your GSD such that Joe Public and his kids can approach and pet your dog? I struggle with why someone would be in a public venue with a GSD that did not have the nerve and socialization to be there? Regardless of how "stupid" you think people are, it is the dog owner's responsibility......and rest assured, if your dog bites that stupid person, they can sue, take your money, and the dog's life no matter what term you elect to apply.
> 
> I truly believe if your dog's nerve is such that a unfamiliar child cannot randomly approach to pet without being at risk, you have no business with that dog in public. It is your responsibility not the stupid people's.


You're right, no sense in arguing. I bow to your wisdom. I will find other places with people that understand simple rules concerning dogs that will help me an irresponsible owner socialize my weak nerved dog.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I don't want to be an alarmist, but these kind of things can pierce liability veils. The absolute worst are the "Caution K-9" stickers for vehicles.
> 
> If, God forbid, your dog ever bit someone, these types of acknowledgements could establish your dog was at fault because he is in "Training" and "No Eye Contact" was plainly stated.


I disagree.

While signs such as "Beware of Dog" can be an admission that the dog is a hazard in some jurisdictions (though they may also be REQUIRED in others), I do not believe that "In Training" or "Please Do Not Pet" constitute the same level of admission or a hazard. 

Service Dogs VERY COMMONLY wear vests that are outfitted with patches that say "In Training" and "Do Not Pet" - not because the dogs are dangerous or have bad temperaments, but because the dogs need to focus on the training and tasks at hand, not on random people who approach them to touch and pet. Yes, it is the owner's responsibility to protect their dogs, but I believe that having the dog wear a vest that says "Do not Pet" or "In Training" can help the owner by making it obvious and clear that their dog isn't just there for a leisurely walk, but is there for a specific purpose, such as training. 

While you still get morons who will come up and try to touch, and you certainly have to be aware of them and need to stop them, it does help with interactions from the general public. I've found that children often will tell their parents, "No mom, you can't pet. See, that dog is wearing a vest/backpack/bandana, it's probably a Service Dog. And you're not allowed to pet them." 



> I struggle with why someone would be in a public venue with a GSD that did not have the nerve and socialization to be there?


This is what I have the biggest problem with in this thread. Most dog owners don't live in the middle of nowhere and HAVE to walk their dogs in "a public venue" where other people may approach their dogs. Many people live in the city or suburbs where walking their dogs will expose them to people coming up. What are they supposed to do if their dogs are not friendly toward every Tom, ****, and Harry who mobs them as they try to walk? Should they just keep their dogs home?

I am lucky enough to live in the country and have room for the dog to run and play, and have other people come over to train together and let their dogs run and play, but most people do NOT and need to be in "public venues" with their dog.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

kelly's buddy said:


> you're right, no sense in arguing. I bow to your wisdom. I will find other places with people that understand simple rules concerning dogs that will help me an irresponsible owner socialize my weak nerved dog.


              

Everybody's an expert.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Kelly's Buddy said:


> You're right, no sense in arguing. I bow to your wisdom. I will find other places with people that understand simple rules concerning dogs that will help me an irresponsible owner socialize my weak nerved dog.


For sake of perspective on your views.....Do you have children of your own? 

If I am in a public venue, and however unlikely, if my four year old daughter approached a dog and was bitten. I would sue and take the home of that dog owner for being in a public place and not exercising reasonable care. Signage only strengthens my case and typically results in higher punitive damage awards....regardless if we like it, or what the bite victom's IQ may be.

The least expensive and time efficient option may be to muzzle...which does not escape the establishment of risk in our litigious society.

Wish you the best because it is a pleasure being out knocking around with your dog. I would imagine a facet of this discussion we could agree on are the fellow dog owners who fail to follow basic dog etiquette. The Flexi-leash and their dog aggressive Shitz-a-doodle designer dog.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

AbbyK9 said:


> This is what I have the biggest problem with in this thread. Most dog owners don't live in the middle of nowhere and HAVE to walk their dogs in "a public venue" where other people may approach their dogs. Many people live in the city or suburbs where walking their dogs will expose them to people coming up. What are they supposed to do if their dogs are not friendly toward every Tom, ****, and Harry who mobs them as they try to walk? Should they just keep their dogs home?


A collection of excellent points. Fortunately I don't live in a downtown scenario either, but can well imagine the validity of this point. Specifically, wouldn't reasonable care suggest precautions such as a muzzle if one is even unsure of the dog's disposition?


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Thank you AbbyK9. You said what I wanted to say.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I always thought that those caution k-9 signs on vechicles were just so people in other cars didn't follow too close or would know dogs were in the car in case of an accident


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> For sake of perspective on your views.....Do you have children of your own?
> 
> If I am in a public venue, and however unlikely, if my four year old daughter approached a dog and was bitten. I would sue and take the home of that dog owner for being in a public place and not exercising reasonable care. Signage only strengthens my case and typically results in higher punitive damage awards....regardless if we like it, or what the bite victom's IQ may be.
> 
> ...


You said it all right there. I understand you well. 

I noticed your signature includes an incorporation for a therapy dog company. A serious legal protection for an entity subject to high risk. Even trained and certified therapy dogs cannot be guaranteed to be no-biters and if you're training them, you are well exposed should something go wrong. 

No sir, I'm not angry with you, just frustrated at what our society has become. I'm not free to walk into a pet store with my dog (even though they are welcomed) without fear of being molested by JohnQPublic and subjecting myself risk of litigation regardless of their IQ.

The simple solution is not to be there in the first place or at least find a place like AbbeyK9 suggested, with like minded people who are well aware of stated dog etiquette and respect it and can/will help you.

No hard feelings on my end.

Thanks.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I would rather have my dog wear a vest that says they are in training. If someone has issue with my dog being trained to behave in public a certain way and is not capable of following the simple do not pet rule thats on them. I have it clearly stated that my dog is in training and is not to be touched. That doesnt imply my dog is dangerous as every dog can be considered a liability whether its wearing the vest or not. It simply implies that while people may want to touch, due to the fact the dog is currently being trained they need to back off. And i will get pretty obnoxious with those who think its okay to ignore the fact. Whenever i'm out in public and we see a service dog i will tell my kids we can not go pet the doggie because the doggie is working. They dont understand the concept of work as they're too young but they do understand that the dog is doing something important and should be left alone. We ignore those who have the do not pet patches on vests and such and those who have the I'm friendly ask to pet me! patches are approachable. Its common sense and common courtesy. When i have my dog trained to a certain point while wearing the do no touch vest then i can remove the do not touch part but keep the In training part on because i would have those velcroed on. HOWEVER, i would keep the in training patch on but add something to the effect of please be patient. The way our society operates is that you can be help liable no matter what you do. You say the dog is in training no touch, no speak, no eye contact, you're damned if you do and damned if you dont. I would prefer to have a clear warning than none at all.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Specifically, wouldn't reasonable care suggest precautions such as a muzzle if one is even unsure of the dog's disposition?


That would depend on what you consider being "unsure of the dog's disposition."

Let's assume someone had a dog that was new to them, whose background they didn't entirely know, but he's given some signs that makes them believe he may not be able to be trusted around strangers. Perfectly fine scenario for bringing the dog out with a muzzle, just in case. Or someone has a dog that is known to be fear aggressive, but there really is no place for them to walk the dog other than downtown where they live. A very reasonable scenario for using a muzzle.

Then, on the other hand, you have many dogs that are perfectly fine being approached by and petted by strangers. But maybe that dog played hard in the morning and pulled a muscle. The owner may not even be aware that the dog is feeling sore. Up runs a child, from behind, and touches the dog without asking - in the spot that's sore. The dog turns around and nips the child. Was there a way the owner should have known that the dog could not be trusted? I don't think so. Was there a way the owner could have prevented this? No, not with the child running up from behind.

Let's bear in mind that ANY dog can bite if the scenario lines up right. Even the most well-behaved, tolerant dog can bite someone if they startle him, surprise him, or touch him in a place that happens to be sore or painful. ANY dog. Even your family dog.

Regarding this -



> if my four year old daughter approached a dog and was bitten. I would sue and take the home of that dog owner for being in a public place and not exercising reasonable care.


Would you let your four-year old daughter run up to a strange dog, maybe from behind, and let her touch that dog without asking the owner's permission first? At what point, in that scenario, is it up to YOU to exercise reasonable care, and not just to the dog's owner?

IMHO people with children need to teach their children that it is never alright to approach a strange dog and touch the dog unless they have first asked the owner for permission, then asked the dog (by offering a hand). A lot of adults would do well to remember this as well.

We can argue "exercising due care" all we want, but it's not just on the dog owner's shoulders. Unless the dog is actually lunging out at strangers without any kind of provocation, it's just as much the responsibility of the people who approach and touch the dog as it is the responsibility of the dog owner.

Just because a dog is in public does not mean ANYONE is allowed and welcome to touch it, without asking, without warning. That's like saying, if I park my car on the street, I should have to put up with people sitting on the hood because I chose to park it there. Or like saying if I walk down the road, I should have no problem with a stranger grabbing me by the hand or the shoulder, because I am out in public.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I noticed your signature includes an incorporation for a therapy dog company. A serious legal protection for an entity subject to high risk. Even trained and certified therapy dogs cannot be guaranteed to be no-biters and if you're training them, you are well exposed should something go wrong.


I think the "Therapy Dogs, Inc." text in his signature just means that his dog passed the TDInc test, just like she passed the CGC and BH. 

As far as Therapy Dogs go, they are tested and certified primarily because of the insurance that certification/registration with a Therapy Dog organization offers. I always cringe when I hear that a lot of old folks' homes and other places allow people to visit with their pets or dogs who only have a CGC because it means that they are not covered should something happen on a visit. I don't know what TDInc. requires, but for TDI, you have to be an associate member (just taking the test alone does not make you a member) and you are covered under their insurance if something happens on a visit. 

And yes, even having a Therapy Dog does not mean the dog will never bite. Imagine you're in a hospital scenario. If someone accidentally rolls their wheelchair over your dog's tail, a dog can turn around and snap at them. With no bad intent at all but a resulting bite all the same. Is that the dog's fault? No, dogs react out of instinct. It's the handler's fault for not ensuring that the dog was safe.

But that may be getting off topic.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> Just because a dog is in public does not mean ANYONE is allowed and welcome to touch it, without asking, without warning. That's like saying, if I park my car on the street, I should have to put up with people sitting on the hood because I chose to park it there. Or like saying if I walk down the road, I should have no problem with a stranger grabbing me by the hand or the shoulder, because I am out in public.


I like this ^^. I take my dog everywhere, however, I do not allow strangers to pet her, why? She is not interested in them doing so. She minds her own business and is content to take it all in but has no desire to have anyone she isn't familiar with pet her.

So, it's up to me, to ensure it doesn't happen and if people DO ask, I always THANK them for asking, I think there isn't enough doggie etiquette in this day and age and I do appreciate them asking first, end up saying "thank you for asking, but no she is in training". And I keep moving

I will not leave my dog at home or avoid taking her to crowded places because she doesn't like people petting her, now if I had a snarling, lunging, biting machine, yes I would avoid those types of situations and most likely get some behavioral help, but otherwise, we'll keep doing what we're doing..


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Although there are crazy people who will still approach a dog if you tell them not to, I think that they are the exception rather than the norm. When I was trying to socialize Moose to help with his fear aggression, people would ask to pet him or they would just approach him. Either way I would just say, "He is not friendly". At times he would punctuate it my statement with a growl. 

Never had an issue after telling people he isn't friendly, but maybe I was just lucky. I agree with what others have said about the vest with warnings adding liability, but you need to decide if you are willing to take the risk. IMO, the "I am working" vests are less of a risk.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

W.Oliver said:


> .......*and however unlikely*, if my four year old daughter approached a dog and was bitten.......





AbbyK9 said:


> Regarding this -
> 
> Would you let your four-year old daughter run up to a strange dog, maybe from behind, and let her touch that dog without asking the owner's permission first? At what point, in that scenario, is it up to YOU to exercise reasonable care, and not just to the dog's owner?
> 
> IMHO people with children need to teach their children that it is never alright to approach a strange dog and touch the dog unless they have first asked the owner for permission, then asked the dog (by offering a hand). A lot of adults would do well to remember this as well.


I agree with you, however, the point I am making is in relation to the bite, not the capacity to be biten.




AbbyK9 said:


> We can argue "exercising due care" all we want, but it's not just on the dog owner's shoulders. Unless the dog is actually lunging out at strangers without any kind of provocation, it's just as much the responsibility of the people who approach and touch the dog as it is the responsibility of the dog owner.


Just so we're clear, I am suggesting that in our litigious society that if your dog bites, you are likely facing legal action. Further, I am suggesting that signage has a likelihood of hurting your position.

If I understand your position correctly, the person who has been biten has responsibility for their approach to the dog and that would be your defense?....in front of a jury of peers, who more likely than not don't own a GSD, and would relate to the plantiff......who has been biten in a public place....by your dog.....wearing the sign that says, "NO EYE CONTACT"......and wasn't muzzled.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, I don't like the idea of the vests. 1. I think a lot of people with service dogs will tell you no amount of signage will stop rude people. 2. I think that putting vests like that on your dog is giving the general public the impression that the dog is in training as a service dog. I'm sure if you asked random people on the street that is the impression they would have. And I generally do not like to misrepresent myself, even if there isn't a purposful misrepresentation going on. 

If you see someone zeroing in on your dog or going to pet them, just say "sorry, I don't let strangers pet my dog."

I take my dog downtown for happy hour or to a cafe all the time in the summer when we can sit outside. I seldom have an issue with people trying to pet Elsa. Nature of a GSD I guess. I do, however, always encourage kids to do "nice touch" and pet her (if they ask) as she loves kids and I like showcasing a non-scary side of the breed.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anyone that's worked with reactive dogs knows how hard it is to work on socialization and at the same time, keep the dog a safe distance away from the triggers that set it off. I'm all for a vest that indicates the dog is in training, please don't disturb/pet...or something similar. As long as there's no implication that the dog is dangerous I don't see a problem. (not implying the OP's dog is dangerous btw)

Something I didn't see mentioned is the benefit of some dogs wearing either a vest, saddlebags or thundershirt out in public, with or without printing on them. Some dogs will actually be calmer with the vests on. As it was explained to me, the dog can feel the vest/saddlebag/thundershirt moving on it's body and it acts as a partial distraction.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> If I understand your position correctly, the person who has been biten has responsibility for their approach to the dog and that would be your defense?


Sorry ... are you suggesting that a bite is ALWAYS the dog owner's fault and never that of the person who is bitten? What about a person who comes up behind and grabs a dog? Who steps on its tail? That's just ludicrous.

ESPECIALLY if the dog is wearing a vest that says, "DO NOT PET" and/or "IN TRAINING" and they should not be approaching and touching the dog in the first place.

If that's your position, I can only shake my head.

That's like saying, it's ALWAYS the driver's fault if your child is hit by a vehicle. Even if the child runs into the middle of the road from between two cars. Oh, but the driver should have been able to stop, magically, somehow.

I'm sorry, but people have a certain responsibility. It's not ALL on the dog owner. And when the dog is clearly marked "DO NOT PET" and you touch the dog and get bitten, don't be surprised if a jury won't award you a couple thousand dollars for your stupidity.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

AbbyK9 said:


> Sorry ... are you suggesting that a bite is ALWAYS the dog owner's fault and never that of the person who is bitten?


I would not use ALWAYS....but I am suggesting the odds of a jury finding in favor of the plantiff (person biten) are significant regardless of the circumstance surrounding the bite. None of us have to like it, but that simply is the case.

Where I would note an expection to this notion is in those circumstances where the victim was in the midst of committing a criminal act, like home invasion. Even then, there are those urban legends where the criminal still sues the home owner for injuries sustained while breaking the law.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Kelly's Buddy said:


> Okay, how do you get there? I mean to a well socialized dog when you have well intentioned people with un-welcomed contact? At some point, you have to communicate to others to leave them be. I respect those signs and appreciate knowing that dogs are "working" to be the best version of themselves and even though I may have good intentions, they may not welcome my advance as they are learning to overcome their issues.
> 
> Those acknowledgements should be standards of etiquette, for greeting *any* strange dog and drilled into people. That should be the concern foremost than any potential litigation. IMHO.


I have a large LH Shepherd that although not reactive, does not care to be pet on or coddled by strangers. He is 14 months old. I take him everywhere I can to make sure that he remains non reactive. 

This has made me totally intuned to his body langauge. I watch him like hawk. That is my responsibility. If we are in a place - say Petsmart - and a large person with a yappy dog comes towards us, and I see my dog look with a little too much interest, I'll tell him to "leave it!" and make him sit. The other dog owner, hearing me say "leave it" will take that as a hint and turn the other way. I've done the same with children who are ill behaved. If they don't turn away, I'll turn and make him heel. 

I've found that when someone hears you command your dog, they realize that you are training and will stop to watch, and not want to pet.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> I would not use ALWAYS....but I am suggesting the odds of a jury finding in favor of the plantiff (person biten) are significant regardless of the circumstance surrounding the bite. None of us have to like it, but that simply is the case.
> 
> Where I would note an expection to this notion is in those circumstances where the victim was in the midst of committing a criminal act, like home invasion. Even then, there are those urban legends where the criminal still sues the home owner for injuries sustained while breaking the law.


In that case, he would NOT be victim, rather a perpetrator, and they would fare better with the dog's treatment than they would with mine.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I have a large LH Shepherd that although not reactive, does not care to be pet on or coddled by strangers. He is 14 months old. I take him everywhere I can to make sure that he remains non reactive.
> 
> This has made me totally intuned to his body langauge. I watch him like hawk. That is my responsibility. If we are in a place - say Petsmart - and a large person with a yappy dog comes towards us, and I see my dog look with a little too much interest, I'll tell him to "leave it!" and make him sit. The other dog owner, hearing me say "leave it" will take that as a hint and turn the other way. I've done the same with children who are ill behaved. If they don't turn away, I'll turn and make him heel.
> 
> *I've found that when someone hears you command your dog, they realize that you are training and will stop to watch, and not want to pet*.


I've noticed this too. When I'm at the park with Ozzy and Sania and someone walks by, Ozzy will want to go greet the person. I LOVE using people because they make good training distractions. Normally they'll just look and keep walking when I tell him to leave it.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I will take either Molly or Tanner out and do training with them. Someimes I do it when the school across the street lets out and hardly any kids just randomly come up and just pet them. Most of the kids ask. But there is always one idiot that says "Go pet the dog!" like all dogs are friendly. If that happens "I will say sorry I am training my dog, please do not pet him."

I think the vests are great idea.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I would not use ALWAYS....but I am suggesting the odds of a jury finding in favor of the plantiff (person biten) are significant regardless of the circumstance surrounding the bite. None of us have to like it, but that simply is the case.


That is not actually true.

Legal cases in nearly all states take into account the situation in which a person was bitten and whether the person's negligence contributed to the bite. AFAIK all states consider it negligent if someone clearly ignores posted warning signs, such as "Beware of the Dog" posted on a fence or "Do Not Pet" on a vest and still choose to trespass and approach a dog. Most states also consider whether a dog was acting in response to pain or whether it was being teased/tormented.

NOLO Legal Solutions has a simple write-up of the legal issues involved, which AFAIK is taken from lawyer Mary Randolph's "Every Dog Owner's Legal Guide" -
Dog Law :: Dog Bites > A Dog Owner's Legal Defenses :: DogLaw.HugPug.com


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I am encouraged by the information but remain conservative.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

We are fostering a service dog and a vest that says In Training Please Don't Pet is sufficient keep people from petting and they will ask, I don't think I would want a vest saying no eye contact etc...I think that is making your dog look like it has issues you don't want to label it. In training works very well. We had a lab before we fostered and he wore the same vest and 95% of the time people will ask to pet and then you can make a decision on it.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Wow, where to start?! This thread really took off in a direction I was not expecting!

O.K., here's some background. 
This is a 20 month old dog I adopted 6 months ago, when he was brought into the vet clinic that I work at. He (according to his previous owners) was terribly people aggressive and should be put down. The people that owned him before me kept him shut in a room alone all the time. When he was allowed out of the room to meet new people he was zapped with the shock collar he wore. 
Since I have had him he has gone from being an absolute nervous wreck around people he did not know to being able to be in a room with several strangers and not bat an eye, as long as nobody touches his head. He will even give a stranger his paw if the person has a tennis ball.

He will not savagely go after random people, so lets eliminate that idea entirely. He does NOT like to be approached by strangers, staring into his face and patting him on the head . . . Not unreasonable. 
IMO, putting a vest on my dog warning that he does not want to play is me doing my part (although the word choice on the vest may be changed to my liking). It is my hope that the vest will act as a long distance warning. Some may heed the warning, others will not. When they do not, I will have no problem telling them to back off. 
It is my responsibility to give him a chance to learn how to behave appropriately around people. When I adopted him I made an "unspoken vow" to make his life better than what he had. If I kept him locked up at home, what kind of life would that be? He would never have an opportunity to overcome his issues. It would be a viscous cycle.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

You're a more noble soul than I.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

The majority of the time when a dog "goes bad" it is because their person failed them. Nothing is more rewarding than taking a dog whom everyone has given up on and turning him into an animal to be admired. Bo is my third rescue with aggression issues, my first aggressive rescue ended up being a therapy dog in a nursing home. I have no doubt that somewhere down the road Bo will improve further still. He is a sweet boy, just needs patience, love and direction.
I would not say "more noble" I have always loved the underdog best.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

shannonrae said:


> The majority of the time when a dog "goes bad" it is because their person failed them. Nothing is more rewarding than taking a dog whom everyone has given up on and turning him into an animal to be admired. Bo is my third rescue with aggression issues, my first aggressive rescue ended up being a therapy dog in a nursing home. I have no doubt that somewhere down the road Bo will improve further still. He is a sweet boy, just needs patience, love and direction.
> I would not say "more noble" I have always loved the underdog best.


Very cool of you to do. Bo's lucky to have someone like you to give him a chance. Good luck and best wishes! 

In the Horse Whisperer, Robert Redford said something like, "I don't help people fix problems with their horse, I fix horses with problems with their people..." May not be an exact quote, sure fits sometimes.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Thank you, it is ultimately a selfish act. It makes me feel good, I learn more about canine behavior and save a life, and acquire a great dog all at the same time. Everybody wins!
In 7 years of working with dogs I have seen one that I may label as truly having a screw loose and being beyond help.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

shannonrae said:


> Thank you, it is ultimately a selfish act. It makes me feel good, I learn more about canine behavior and save a life, and acquire a great dog all at the same time. Everybody wins!
> In 7 years of working with dogs I have seen one that I may label as truly having a screw loose and being beyond help.


Nothing wrong with that. It sometimes frustrates me when they are written off. I worked at the shelter for awhile helping dogs with basic OB. Some were real hardened by their previous treatment. It was always rewarding to see one come around and be placed in a forever home. I learned a lot there.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank's for asking about the vests and the replies on where to get something similar.

Deuce has been socialized since we got him, however up until we got him at 4 months of age he was simply kept with his litter mates on the farm and not exposed to anything else. I've done tons of work with him in the 7 months he's been with us but not all dogs are thrilled to be approached by strangers or petted.

As far as service dogs go, I know here in Maryland that Maryland State Police, Maryland Transit Authority Police and Anne Arundel County Police do not let the public pet their dogs (all German Shepherds, MSP uses Mals too). A woman who has a child in my son's class is legally blind and has a Golden seeing eye dog. His vest reads "do not pet me" and the woman's helper will firmly tell the children/adults who ask "No".

I hate that a lot of people read threads such as this and assume that the owners are lazy or don't socialize their dog enough. Not all dogs are well bred (mine being a perfect example) and there are a lot of rescued GSD's out there who's pasts are unknown.


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