# Is that Legal?



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Through Jessie I came across this Pit Bull Forum and the stuff I'm reading is absolutely shocking. Half the time I can't believe the "Believes" some people have. 

Apparently the most important trait a pit bull has to have is gameness. Meaning that even if the dog is facing death, he's got to keep going and can't give up. So the natural trait of dogs "flight" does not exist. I asked if that is what we refer as hardness to, but apparently it's not hardness, it's more than that. It's that the dog lays down his life in order to fight until death. 

Anyhow, since dog fighting is illegal and you can't test the "Gamness" anymore, it seems like some people have gotten creative to go around that. Instead of dogs, they fight Hogs, Racoons, even Bears... as "Game Hounds". 

Now here is my question. Is that LEGAL? Is it really legal to take your dog hunting hogs? 

And if it is. What do you think about these practices of testing the "gamness" of a dog in a manner like that? It kind of defeats the purpose of making dog fights illegal when there are still ways to go around and have them fight Hogs instead... isn't it? I can't even comprehend the brutality of that, yet for some reason it's fascinating to dig into the history of the breed. However, I just don't understand why you would risk your dog getting killed just to test their "gameness". :help:


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes just as it legal to take coonhounds hunting **** and terriers hunt vermin all of which have risks to the dog as well. I don't think many hunting dogs of these kind are necessarily beloved family pets. Wild hogs are a real problem in some areas. I think normally the human makes the kill and the hog dogs (who wear kevlar vests) locate and hold the hogs at bay.

Is killing game necessariliy the same as killing your own species? I don't think so.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Yes just as it legal to take coonhounds hunting **** and terriers hunt vermin all of which have risks to the dog as well. I don't think many hunting dogs of these kind are necessarily beloved family pets. Wild hogs are a real problem in some areas. I think normally the human makes the kill and the hog dogs (who wear kevlar vests) locate and hold the hogs at bay.
> 
> Is killing game necessariliy the same as killing your own species? I don't think so.


From what I understood the dogs are not wearing kevlar vests at all. One dog has been killed by going after a bear. 

It's not so much the practice but the sentiment behind it. Dog Fighting is illegal but there are still ways going around it to "match" the dogs by having them fight hogs. 

I just can't seem to find anything "sporty" in something like that. I know my dog could get killed in SAR as well but it's a real purpose and not because I sent her against a hog just to test her "gameness".

Fighting a hog is just as brutal as a dog fight, if not even more dangerous. Personally, I don't make a difference between dogs or hogs. Both are living beings and it's as brutal as it can get. They should die as quickly as possible.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I can't comment on testing "gameness" or any of that, but as to boar hunting, you might read through this page:

Boar hunting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specifically about the two different types of dogs:


> Boar hunting dogs are loosely divided into two categories, bay dogs, and catch dogs. Bay dogs harass and harry the boar, keeping it cornered in one place and barking loudly. This behaviour is known as "baying" or keeping the boar "at bay". The bay dogs' barking alerts the hunters to the bay, so that the hunter may catch up and kill the boar. Sometimes the boar is tied up to be killed and cleaned later, as the meat of a dead boar goes bad very quickly. Bay dogs are typically Cur dogs such as the Leopard Cur, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Blackmouth Cur, Blue Lacy, Catahoula and trailing scent hounds such as the Walker Hound,[4] Foxhound, Plott Hound, and the Berner Niederlaufhund.
> 
> Catch dogs grip the boar with their jaws, typically seizing the base of the boar's ear. Once they have the boar, they will hold it down by the head until the hunter arrives. The hunter then comes in from behind and kills the boar with a knife or spear. Catch dogs are typically "Bully" breeds such as the American Bulldog, American Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and other molossers such as the Boxer, Bullmastiff, Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Dogue de Bordeaux, Great Dane, Neapolitan Mastiff, English Mastiff and smaller Mastiff crosses.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Even though it is illegal you still have "old timers" "matching" dogs. 
What happens in the backwoods stays in the backwoods 

Until you get big bad HSUS on your tail.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think whether it's legal is going to depend on the area and it has very little to do with the "backwoods". 

Some people had the bright idea to bring wild hogs into areas local to them so they could hunt them. Unfortunately, they brought back BOTH sexes and they breed very, very quickly. Hogs are nasty, mean, destructive animals so they have quickly turned into a problem.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, they aren't doing it on street corners. 

And yes, much of the "matching" is done in the thick cover of woods. Sorry if that word has negative connotations for you. 

Here they have rooster-fights (figured the other word would trigger censorship) in the thick of hops fields and other heavy vegetative cover. That's illegal here too.
Dog fighting is illegal in all 50 states, and I believe rooster-fights are as well.


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Before the shift of a large population of humans living in cities and suburbs and making dogs exclusively their pets, people bred dogs for specific purposes. Having lived in suburbs growing up, living in the country for many years now and having Appalachian origins that I keep in touch with, I am able to balance and understand those two cultures. Though I personally would not let my dogs hunt boar or bear because I think of them as small extended family members, I don't begrudge those who have not shifted into urbanized culture. Boars are not native to America and have done some real damage in some areas. I have relatives that live amongst bears, and though they seldom have problems, if bears lose their fear of man they become a real danger. A cousin of mine was driving once in West Virginia and slowed down for a bear standing in the median, and it attacked her car. No joke. Right on I-64/77. My brother-in-law's worst fear with his coonhounds was that a **** would get one to water, where a **** can and will drown a dog. Studies in Indiana correlating the steep rise in rabies conclude a large factor is fewer people hunting *****. Another relative of mine living in Oakland, Maryland makes jokes that when they created the state of West Virginia, the residents of western Maryland often wish they'd annexed Maryland's mountain region into it, because they are controlled by the suburbs of Washington DC of eastern Maryland, who have no clue what living in the mountains requires. Now some people will say that we (mankind) encroach upon the natural world. But most people who actually live in the "natural world" consider themselves just another part of it. While urban people often find rural people's use of dogs actively working (and the risks that come with it) horrendeous, rural people find that the thousands of dogs scooped up quietly from the city streets and euthanized just as horrific. I don't judge either culture because I know why both do what they do.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

msvette2u - it amazes me how you can say such stereotypical, offensive things and then turn it around on ppl that call you on it. Would you be offended is someone lumped ppl from the city into "what happens in the ghetto stays in the ghetto"?

Dog fighting is illegal.

Using dogs to hunt hogs is not illegal in all 50 states. Look it up. City people from street corners come to the backwoods to hunt. I've never seen a hog on a street corner so that might be why 'they aren't doing it on street corners'


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Just to be clear, Mrs.K- are you saying that people are capturing a wild boar and literally putting it in a ring with a dog and betting on the outcome- not dog fighting per se, but a dog fighting a wild animal for profit? In my opinion, that is very much different than a hunter using dogs to bay or catch boar.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wildo said:


> Just to be clear, Mrs.K- are you saying that people are capturing a wild boar and literally putting it in a ring with a dog and betting on the outcome- not dog fighting per se, but a dog fighting a wild animal for profit? In my opinion, that is very much different than a hunter using dogs to bay or catch boar.



Good question. I took it as hunting. Baiting a dog against a wild animal for sport is illegal.


----------



## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

A lot of the dog fighting rings hold matches in the cites. It is not just a "backwoods" problem.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Apparently the most important trait a pit bull has to have is gameness. ".
> 
> What do you think about these practices of testing the "gamness" of a dog in a manner like that?


I can't try to explain on behalf of the Pit Bull. I don't own one. But I will try to explain the 'True' meaning of having or wanting a dog who is 'gamey'. 

The term 'game' is meant to be used as in Wild Game. Not as used in betting games. A gamey dog is a dog who can hunt. Not a dog who can kill. Sport dogs aren't bred to kill, they are bred to find and hold wild game (or find and retrieve dead game fowl etc.). 

Some game dogs, such as the Blue Lacy are used to find wounded game, or Blood Track the wounded game. So when hunters shoot and wound a deer and it runs into the dense woods the hunter can use the dog to find the deer. The deer doesn't actually have to have a 'blood' trail. If the deer is wounded, the dog can find it. There are various ways of following your dog including GPS, each state has specific laws that you have to follow. 

Gamey Sport dogs are also trained to **** hunt, squirrel hunt etc. All sorts of small game. Then along came the over population of feral hogs. Not to be confused with Javelina hog, witch is a native species to some areas. The feral hog's population has exploded. It ruins crops. It ruins pastures where cattle graze. It is a dangerous animal. 

So, now you have gamey dogs who are in hunting in the same areas that are soaked with feral hogs. You are going to have run ins. It is going to happen. The feral hog isn't an easy quarry. So there is sport in hunting the feral hog. So both to protect and widen the field of hunting you teach your 'game' dog to respect and bay the feral hog. 

The Pit Bull isn't a hunting dog. It doesn't have the natural abilities to hunt as your game dogs. But the Pit Bull does have what it takes to be a 'catch' dog. Not all hunters use a catch dog. But there are some that do. So you have a Pit Bull who isn't dog aggressive that will run with a pack (or just one) game dog (s) and when the hog is found it will grab the hog and hold it. Not all Pits will do that. Just as not all dogs will hunt. Most will use Kevlar collars and vests on their dogs. Even the bay dogs. 

I have never heard of, nor witnessed any type of hog/dog fighting. But just like everything else, if money is to be made, someone is going to slither out from under a rock and try to make some.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for that explanation Lilie!!


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> msvette2u - it amazes me how you can say such stereotypical, offensive things and then turn it around on ppl that call you on it. Would you be offended is someone lumped ppl from the city into "what happens in the ghetto stays in the ghetto"?
> 
> Dog fighting is illegal.
> 
> Using dogs to hunt hogs is not illegal in all 50 states. Look it up. City people from street corners come to the backwoods to hunt. I've never seen a hog on a street corner so that might be why 'they aren't doing it on street corners'


I'm not really sure why you're offended. She didn't say anything about the kind of people that would do it. She didn't imply that country people were the only people that did it, she just mentioned location. And as someone who is from the country I totally agree. A lot of people go out to remote locations to do stuff that they couldn't otherwise get away with A) because they are less likely to be discovered and B) because a lot of people that live in the country live under the mindset of minding their own business. Right or wrong it's reality.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I can't try to explain on behalf of the Pit Bull. I don't own one. But I will try to explain the 'True' meaning of having or wanting a dog who is 'gamey'.


On behalf of the breed American Pit Bull Terrier, "game"_ does_ mean a dog who is not willing to back down during a fight (with another pit bull). 

With respect to other breeds, it does mean what the rest of your post says. 
Dachshunds are even described as a "game" dog in that they were bred to kill badgers. Not just go down and bark at them, or find them. _Kill_ them.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I'm not really sure why you're offended. She didn't say anything about the kind of people that would do it. She didn't imply that country people were the only people that did it, she just mentioned location. And as someone who is from the country I totally agree. A lot of people go out to remote locations to do stuff that they couldn't otherwise get away with A) because they are less likely to be discovered and B) because a lot of people that live in the country live under the mindset of minding their own business. *Right or wrong it's reality.*


Ah, Jax has been tryng to find fault with my posts for weeks now  I am used to it.

FTR - when I said dog "matching" I mean two dogs, not a dog and a hog. 

I don't know much about that but I know _dog fighting _still takes place today, and yes, it is illegal and yes it's done in deep vegetative cover, the "backwoods" as it is known, so as to avoid Law enforcement prying and stopping those activities.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> She didn't say anything about the kind of people that would do it. She didn't imply that country people were the only people that did it, she just mentioned location.





msvette2u said:


> Well, they aren't doing it on street corners.


Ummm...yes she did.





NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I'm not really sure why you're offended.


I"m not "offended". If you want to condone stereotypical, snarky, comments...have at it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Ah, Jax has been tryng to find fault with my posts for weeks now  I am used to it.


.

I have? I"ve disagreed with you twice and that's trying to find fault? :rofl: ok


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's been more than twice but who's counting?? 

And if you want to make this about _people_, that's fine, that is your choice, and what _you_ said, not me. 
I said street corners because people aren't going to go fight them out in the open like that, where law enforcement can easily see it. 

Last I knew, it was safer to do illegal activities (if you're into that kind of thing) where is it well-hidden. 
BACKWOODS are fine for that, as are the hops fields here. They don't fight roosters on street corners, either, they do it where there is plenty of vegetation to hide it. We just don't have WOODS per se, here.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

...and back to the topic...


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Hog hunting is LEGAL with dogs. However, interesting enough, most hog dogs are a type of Cur(Mountain Cur etc.), Catahoulas, and Hounds for finding the hogs...the "strike" dogs if you want true terminology. The Catch dogs are anything from Great Danes, Dogos, American Pit Bull Terriers, American Bulldogs etc. or a mix of those breeds. Most true hog hunters have their own line of dogs that they have been running for years. The newer ones have dogs of all types. I have even seen a vid of a Labx on a hog hunt as a strike dog. 

Typically when APBT(Pit Bull) people talk about "gameness" it is being reffered to as the OLD word used in the pits to describe the dogs. It does refer to the dogs willingness to fight and not back down(scratch). 

There are NO legal ways to truly test a Pit Bulls gameness in the true sense of the word the way old time Pit Bull people used it. Those people sometimes find other ways to "test" gameness through legal things such as hog hunting. I think it is a bunch of hogwash personally and that too many Pit Bull people are hung up on the history of the breed. 

Mrs. K- I am curious what Pit Bull forum it is as there are some really good ones and some really crappy ones that are full of idiots. I am a member of a lot of pit bull forums and I persoanlyl reccomend www.pitbullforum.com They have the best level headed advice IMHO. That said, Pit bull owners can get over zealous and very nasty with each other over very stupid things. We love our breed and have to fight to keep them everyday...that makes us a bit more defensive than other breed groups. Just saying.

ETA-As far as dog fighting goes...it happens EVERYWHERE!!! No area is immune to it. It happens in abandanoned houses in the city and in wooded areas in the country. It happens in the open during daylight, it can happen in a dark alley, or a light alley. It happens EVERYWHERE.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

msvette2u - I'm not going to continue this argument with you on this thread. There have been two times where I have called you out on something offensive that you have said. This thread and the gun thread.

You made a broad statement and I said it didn't have anything to do with "backwoods" and then you got snarky. Maybe you should be more clear on what you mean and people wouldn't view things differently than you mean. I'm obviously not the only one that blinked at the "backwoods" comment.

Now...back to the thread...

Mrs. K - was the context of the posts about hunting with dogs or baiting dogs against wild hogs and bears?


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> On behalf of the breed American Pit Bull Terrier, "game"_ does_ mean a dog who is not willing to back down during a fight (with another pit bull).
> 
> With respect to other breeds, it does mean what the rest of your post says.
> Dachshunds are even described as a "game" dog in that they were bred to kill badgers. Not just go down and bark at them, or find them. _Kill_ them.


...and speaking of Dachshunds, they are also a very popular breed used to Blood Trail. Mostly in the northern states. I suspect dense brush and not as much swampy areas as in the Southern states, but I'm just guessing. I'm thinking my Dachshund doesn't stand a chance against a deer, even if it's wounded. But, if you are a mouse in my house...she'll make sure you aren't around for long! She won't stand for insects..spiders..etc. If it moves, it belongs to her.

And just to add, I haven't heard of the term "gameness" to refer to a dog who won't back down. I have heard of the term "Grit" as in a very gritty dog, or the dog has a lot of grit. But having a dog with a lot of grit also means you have a dog who will hunt in any terrain, under any conditions. A dog who even if it injures itself (thorns, pad tear, etc.) it won't stop till if finds it quarry. Once it finds it quarry will stay with it until the hunter arrives. It doesn't have to just mean a dog who'll fight.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> msvette2u - I'm not going to continue this argument with you on this thread. There have been two times where I have called you out on something offensive that you have said. This thread and the gun thread.


Well Jax, it was very big of you to make a post saying you're not going to argue, then proceed to point out my flaws. 
I do not own the market on offensive posts - you've made your share of them too, so don't sit there polishing your halo.

It was also not me who decided to drag this thread off topic. And you're doing it again by stating you're _not_ going to argue. If you truly don't want to, why not PM me??

As to the backwoods comment, you're the only one to take offense and there were others who could not figure out why you were upset 
It seems you were the only one to take offense and then proceed to point it out. You also misinterpreted the rest of my post quite conveniently.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lilie said:


> ...and speaking of Dachshunds, they are also a very popular breed used to Blood Trail. Mostly in the northern states. I suspect dense brush and not as much swampy areas as in the Southern states, but I'm just guessing. I'm thinking my Dachshund doesn't stand a chance against a deer, even if it's wounded. But, if you are a mouse in my house...she'll make sure you aren't around for long! She won't stand for insects..spiders..etc. If it moves, it belongs to her.
> 
> And just to add, I haven't heard of the term "gameness" to refer to a dog who won't back down. I have heard of the term "Grit" as in a very gritty dog, or the dog has a lot of grit. But having a dog with a lot of grit also means you have a dog who will hunt in any terrain, under any conditions. A dog who even if it injures itself (thorns, pad tear, etc.) it won't stop till if finds it quarry. Once it finds it quarry will stay with it until the hunter arrives. It doesn't have to just mean a dog who'll fight.


LOL The Dachshunds are tough little beasts. I think mine would try to take down the deer, wounded or not! All I know is they are hunters are heart 

I spent time on the pit bull message boards when I worked in animal control, as it seemed to help to have the outlet when attempting to place pit bulls in an area fraught with BSL, so I know that gameness (to them) simply means a dog that will not quit or back down. And "simply" is anything but simple. The "old timers" will cull any dog that is not "game", which gets back to the old question of testing for that trait.


----------



## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

As far as the use of the word "game", it is to my knowledge
used sometimes with horses also and goes to willingness to do
something. I used it myself a few months back about a trail
ride I took on a "game" little Morab gelding, who took me up
hill and down, over rocky areas and through streams and
across wooden footbridges in the high Sierras.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Instead of dogs, they fight Hogs, Racoons, even Bears... as "Game Hounds".
> 
> Now here is my question. Is that LEGAL? Is it really legal to take your dog hunting hogs?


Mrs.K will have to answer but to me it seems like she is talking about the dogs fighting other animals. Not really hunting. I would think putting any animals together to fight would be illegal.

What is the difference between throwing two dogs together to fight or going out and finding a hog or other animal to fight with.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

What was interesting to me is that it seemed the pit bull people felt they held the copyright to that word (game)...I never could figure that out.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> Mrs.K will have to answer but to me it seems like she is talking about the dogs fighting other animals. Not really hunting. I would think putting any animals together to fight would be illegal.
> 
> What is the difference between throwing two dogs together to fight or going out and finding a hog or other animal to fight with.


Taking your dog out hunting isn't illegal - however there are guidelines you have to (or are supposed to) adhere to. I don't pay attention (other than I am aware of them) since I don't hunt w/my dogs and don't live where there's hogs and bears to hunt.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't hunt, but don't get heartburn when people use dogs for hunting. In fact, that's how a lot of breeds got started, for assisting man with the hunt of game. 

Like a lot of areas, we have a terrible wild hog problem here in Florida ... they are not only messing up large areas of land where they roam, they are extremely dangerous. If a hunter wants to use dogs hunting hogs (or any game really), I can't object. I'm sure they take care of their dogs since they have to do some training them before taking them hunting/retrieving.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I understand that the word "game" is used in other circles and breeds etc. I personally think that some of the pit bull people have taken it as a word for their breed only, when in reality I tend to think of it more as in general and applicable to other breeds. As far as old timers culling dogs nowdays...it isn't really happening cause they can easily sell them to people..making some of them more of a puppy peddler. 

There is a big difference in people that "think" they know APBTs and people that actually OWN the breed. Some people that own the breed can be extreme and it is best to stay away from that type. I personally have a lot of friends that own this breed who are defensive about the breed but readily answer questions without such an extremist view on it.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Taking your dog out hunting isn't illegal - however there are guidelines you have to (or are supposed to) adhere to. I don't pay attention (other than I am aware of them) since I don't hunt w/my dogs and don't live where there's hogs and bears to hunt.


I've been hunting with dogs. That's different from going out hunting for a racoon or hog so that your dog can fight with them.
That's how I took what she said, but maybe i misunderstood.
If there is a overpopulation of hogs or any other animal I don't see any problem with hunting them. However I would shoot them not let my dog attack one to fight with.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There are two different issues at hand = one is dog-dog fights. Illegal.

Another is hunting = dog finds/chases/maybe even bites the prey animal. Not illegal. (But I believe there are guidelines to hunt them). 
Maybe the hardcores let their dogs tear it up. But I don't see that as dog vs. game _fight _in the true sense of the word.

Maybe some assess gameness that way. But I know for a fact there's many of the so called old time dog fighters still doing their fighting by placing two dogs together. That's what I've been referring to, because there really is no other way to fully assess your dog is "game" (in the way they mean it) without it going up against another dog. They call it "matching". 

I don't see people talking about having their dog go up against a Raccoon for instance and saying their dog is "game" because it killed one. At least that's not what I saw on the pit bull boards when I was on them.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K will have to clear up wht she meant.

I think any two animals put together in any way to fight for human entertainment or money is beyond stuuuuuuuppppiiiiiiidddd. Inhumane and should be illegal.


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I've been hunting with dogs. That's different from going out hunting for a racoon or hog so that your dog can fight with them.
> That's how I took what she said, but maybe i misunderstood.
> If there is a overpopulation of hogs or any other animal I don't see any problem with hunting them. However I would shoot them not let my dog attack one to fight with.


Do you think maybe people that do this are not intentionally pitting their dogs against these animals, but more their animals get to the animal first and in an effort to keep the animal there until the hunter gets there sometimes a fight breaks out? This is not meant to be snarky, but a genuine question. I'm not talking about people who want to prove their dog is tough either, more about people who genuinely enjoy hunting and using dogs to do so.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Newbie, I'd think that's probably how it goes down. 
There's a fine line between prey drive that can chase something (and "hold" it there once the dog gets to it), and prey drive that will attack and/or kill something.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> Do you think maybe people that do this are not intentionally pitting their dogs against these animals, but more their animals get to the animal first and in an effort to keep the animal there until the hunter gets there sometimes a fight breaks out? This is not meant to be snarky, but a genuine question. I'm not talking about people who want to prove their dog is tough either, more about people who genuinely enjoy hunting and using dogs to do so.


Except Pit Bulls were bred to fight not hunt.

My GSD can find game when we are in the country but he wasn't bred for hunting.
There are hunting dogs bred for almost every kind of game imaginable but Pit Bulls weren't one of them.


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Except Pit Bulls were bred to fight not hunt.
> 
> My GSD can find game when we are in the country but he wasn't bred for hunting.
> There are hunting dogs bred for almost every kind of game imaginable but Pit Bulls weren't one of them.


According to the United Kennel Club this is what pitbulls were used for "The American Pit Bull Terrier’s many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs as* catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs*, *to hunt*, to drive livestock, and as family companions. Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking, Agility and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation."

United Kennel Club: American Pit Bull Terrier (Revised November 1, 2008)

The bolding is mine.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I do not think they were originally bred just to fight.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> According to the United Kennel Club this is what pitbulls were used for "The American Pit Bull Terrier’s many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs as* catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs*, *to hunt*, to drive livestock, and as family companions. Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking, Agility and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation."
> 
> United Kennel Club: American Pit Bull Terrier (Revised November 1, 2008)
> 
> The bolding is mine.


Your right I just looked it up. I'll get out of here since I don't know a **** thin about Pit Bulls.


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

LOL it's ok; I almost agreed with you and then I was like......wait........pit+bull....there must be more there! hahaha


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The term "gameness" means different things to different people, so you have to discern the meaning of the word by context. To APBT people, "gameness" is a rare quality which compells a dog to continue fighting even when he is losing, or in fact dying. The old-time dog men can explain the rules of matching--remember, it was once legal--and how it is not just a fight but a test.

To others, "gameness" means the ability and willingness to hunt game. Hunting dogs and terriers.

To yet others, "gameness" means an animal that is ready and willing to do whatever you ask. They are brave, willing, and always "game" for whatever activity is at hand. I suspect this is what is meant with horses.

Anyway--yes, hunting hogs with dogs is legal and, in many places, encouraged, as feral hogs are not native to the US and cause major problems in some areas. Personally, I think it is the perfect outlet for the ABPT's talents. Most people outfit their dogs with kevlar vests to protect them from the hog's tusks.

They do have organized hog dog trials where the hog is put into a pen and the dog must chase it down and hold it at bay; but if the dog bites or even touches the hog, it is an automatic DQ.

As to whether dogs are matched against hogs in a ring fight, I haven't heard of that but I wouldn't put it past some idiots looking for a thrill or something to bet on. That would be illegal, and probably frowned upon by APBT people.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Here in CT, it is illegal to hunt with dogs. Using dogs for bird hunting/basically retreiving is ok, but anything else is illegal I believe.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

In true hog hunting that I have seen..admittedly in videos and on TV. The catch dogs are released to HOLD the hog until the hunter gets there, gets the dogs off and either shoots it or "hog" ties it and takes it out alive. There was a really good series on TV called American Hoggers that depicted Hog Hunting. 

Not every APBT owner thinks of "gameness" the same way as it is meant in APBT history books. 

I really hate when people who know nothing about certain breeds pop off about that breed and just add to the misconceptions. 

Anyway- IF someone KNOWS for a FACT that someone is matching/fighting their dogs....then the ONLY ETHICAL and HUMANE thing to do is to turn them in!!!


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> Yes just as it legal to take coonhounds hunting **** and terriers hunt vermin all of which have risks to the dog as well.


Just like a dog HERDING has risks.

Dogs can EASILY be seriously injured or KILLED by cattle. Does that mean that people shouldn't use dogs to herd anything larger than a duck? { This isn't directed at you jocoyn.  }


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> Just like a dog HERDING has risks.
> 
> Dogs can EASILY be seriously injured or KILLED by cattle. Does that mean that people shouldn't use dogs to herd anything larger than a duck? { This isn't directed at you jocoyn.  }


I think they use Irish Duck Hounds for ducks.


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

)


Jack's Dad said:


> I think they use Irish Duck Hounds for ducks.


:nono: They use Irish Duck Hounds to HUNT ducks, NOT herd them!!!


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> )
> 
> :nono: They use Irish Duck Hounds to HUNT ducks, NOT herd them!!!


Huh! When did they stop herding ducks. :shocked:


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , wild hogs are , well, running wild , and they are dangerous , and they are very very tough. I saw a piece of news journalism - the like of 60 Minutes type show -- and they said the hogs wil charge , attack and kill people and have done so with children "Feral hogs are probably the most dangerous animals in the lower forty-eight states. They are not wild animals but domestic animals that have gone "feral" the term used to designate animals we would normally think of as wild. They have had fear of humans bread out of them and they were bread for size. I have seen a domesticated "Pollen China"(SP) sow that was 4 years old hand had several litters of pigs that weighted 2300 lbs. I got $0.53 per lb. at the sale in Cloves NM circa 1970. This breed is extremely aggressive and will savage a man even the one who regular feeds them. There are several other breeds who are also aggressive. When an animal can get that big and is not afraid of humans they can and will hunt man for food. There is an open season on feral Hogs in TX and NM. You need no license, and only the land owners permission to be there. I have no doubt that the stories of them attacking hunters unprovoked is accurate. I have seen it happen. It is one reason most cowhands still wear sidearms. If you get thrown or are off your horse when a feral hog attacks, a rifle in a saddle sheath is no good at all."
look at this http://blogs.discovery.com/discovery-insider/2011/01/hogs-gone-wild.html
Carmen


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

more in Florida - competing with "released" boa constrictors that have grown to monster size, and alligators -- WEC277/UW322: Wild Hogs in Florida: Ecology and Management --


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Okay, it's public on that forum. So all I'm going to do is to post the link. 
The interesting stuff starts on page four. 

how many true dog man and women are around - Page 4 - Pitbulls : Go Pitbull Dog Forums

Just read it. It's the kind of game msvette was saying. At least that is how I understood it. Keep going until you die. And the dogs kill the hogs. Not the hunter.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

That is not correct hog hunting IMO and gives hunters a bad name. Mrs. K- TRy the other pitbull forum I put here if you are interested in a pit bull forum. Seriously, there are some doozies out there and the one you linked to is one of those. Some good people there...but mainly.....not the kind of people you want to associate with.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Okay, it's public on that forum. So all I'm going to do is to post the link.
> The interesting stuff starts on page four.
> 
> how many true dog man and women are around - Page 4 - Pitbulls : Go Pitbull Dog Forums
> ...


I had a feeling the dogs killed the hogs. After reading the link you posted I'm glad I don't know a **** thing about APBTs.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

couldn't let this excerpt go without mention usually coyotes kill most of the dogs.. They taunt a dog out with playful behavior to only be torn apart by jackals, coyotes and jackals are almost identical, both bite chunks of the prey as they chase it down, eating one bite at a time. Coyotes and wolves also disenbowel a dog by

an adult black lab ended up on my sisters doorstep with the guts hanging out -- coyotes . This was when she lived in the gate house at the Dunlap Observatory . People insisted on letting their dogs run off lead !!!

-- anyway - Mrs K do you recall the thread where I quoted Gildo's owner/breeder saying that the dog was used to hunt wild boar -- do you think Gildo had a bit of "game" going on ?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> couldn't let this excerpt go without mention usually coyotes kill most of the dogs.. They taunt a dog out with playful behavior to only be torn apart by jackals, coyotes and jackals are almost identical, both bite chunks of the prey as they chase it down, eating one bite at a time. Coyotes and wolves also disenbowel a dog by
> 
> an adult black lab ended up on my sisters doorstep with the guts hanging out -- coyotes . This was when she lived in the gate house at the Dunlap Observatory . People insisted on letting their dogs run off lead !!!
> 
> -- anyway - Mrs K do you recall the thread where I quoted Gildo's owner/breeder saying that the dog was used to hunt wild boar -- do you think Gildo had a bit of "game" going on ?


Remember the excerpt I sent you about shepherds being wolfdogs? It's the same person that said that. 

As for Gildo. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some _game _in him. However, as far as I know, he's never hunted pigs and if he did, we don't know about it.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

?? wolfdogs? 
the thing with Gildo was an excerpt from an interview with his breeder --

anyway we all know that Gildo had true pronounced fight drive .

--


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Mrs K , wild hogs are , well, running wild , and they are dangerous , and they are very very tough. I saw a piece of news journalism - the like of 60 Minutes type show -- and they said the hogs wil charge , attack and kill people and have done so with children "Feral hogs are probably the most dangerous animals in the lower forty-eight states. They are not wild animals but domestic animals that have gone "feral" the term used to designate animals we would normally think of as wild. They have had fear of humans bread out of them and they were bread for size. I have seen a domesticated "Pollen China"(SP) sow that was 4 years old hand had several litters of pigs that weighted 2300 lbs. I got $0.53 per lb. at the sale in Cloves NM circa 1970. This breed is extremely aggressive and will savage a man even the one who regular feeds them. There are several other breeds who are also aggressive. When an animal can get that big and is not afraid of humans they can and will hunt man for food. There is an open season on feral Hogs in TX and NM. You need no license, and only the land owners permission to be there. I have no doubt that the stories of them attacking hunters unprovoked is accurate. I have seen it happen. It is one reason most cowhands still wear sidearms. If you get thrown or are off your horse when a feral hog attacks, a rifle in a saddle sheath is no good at all."
> look at this Hogs Gone Wild - Discovery Insider
> Carmen


Over here we call them FERAL PIGS.....they are a huge problem.
Exactly what Carmen said....very dangerous to hunt due to size and aggression. I did a bit of hunting with my brother and his dogs years ago.
A good "pig dog" does not attack the animal....it holds them. If the dog attacks the animal it is not regarded as a good hunting dog and can be hurt very easily regardless if they are wearing vests.
I am sure there are hunters who like their dogs to attack the pig and tear it up but they wouldn't be doing it if they were hunting for profit. Feral pig is hunted for profit here so the carcass cannot be damaged.

I can't imagine a dog coming out of a "fight" with some of the pigs we have here in a very good state.......they have tusks and can kill a dog pretty easily......they must be pretty small hogs they use for this purpose.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> I had a feeling the dogs killed the hogs. After reading the link you posted I'm glad I don't know a **** thing about APBTs.


Please don't judge all APBT owners based on that forum or one thread! WE are not all like that! I love the APBT breed and will always have one. I have one now is going to be health tested as soon as age allows BUT she will never be bred. She is working in Schutzhund and Competition OB! AS I said some people are stuck in the breeds history instead of trying to help the dogs move forward!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> ?? wolfdogs?
> the thing with Gildo was an excerpt from an interview with his breeder --
> 
> anyway we all know that Gildo had true pronounced fight drive .
> ...


No, the private message I sent you a week ago. Remember? About the GSD's being crossbred, linebred and inbred to wolves SINCE WWI. The same guy that made that statement about Coyotes, is the guy that wrote that and said GSD's are all Wolvedogs

yes, yes he had.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs were bred for hunting. Dacshunds were created to hunt badgers (and fight them). A good hog dog was worth its weight in farm/ranches, ever read Old Yeller? Yes that is a novel, but it depicts something that actually is. Hogs, wild hogs are mean and a dog that can manage them is a real asset. The movie shows a big yellow lab as Yeller, but people say he was more likely a cur dog, and I have to agree. 

I would expect that GSD people want different traits then Pitbull people. The one his a herding dog, the other is a terrier. Their idea of gameness is different then our idea of hardness or willingness to protect, or drives, because the two breeds are very different. It is very possible that when people with pit bulls view the protection phase of schutzhund they are horrified and think that we in general are scum to train dogs to attack humans and to use a baton on them. 

I know other dog-people feel that way. 

There are breeds of dogs used to be set on bears, to drive them away from human dwellings. I guess it works, too. 

There are coonhounds who hunt raccoons and will fight them.

There are fox hounds that will tear up a rabbit or fox, though that has been deemed illegal in places.

There are bird dogs that do not engage in the prey at all, but their purpose is to locate, in some cases lure, and in some cases retrieve the birds after they are shot. Nothing wrong with that. 

I think that dog fighting is terrible, but not surprising that it began. I am actually surprised that Schutzhund never had a dog fight as part of it. I mean when you think about it, most of these breeds were designed for farming and ranching purposes. Stray dogs and wolves were a threat that a good farm dog would need to be able to manage. A shepherd would want his dog to be able to take on a wolf if necessary. People who depend on their livestock for their livelihood, might feel very differently about a test to prove a dog's worth/capability.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I think that dog fighting is terrible, but not surprising that it began. I am actually surprised that Schutzhund never had a dog fight as part of it. I mean when you think about it, most of these breeds were designed for farming and ranching purposes. Stray dogs and wolves were a threat that a good farm dog would need to be able to manage. A shepherd would want his dog to be able to take on a wolf if necessary. People who depend on their livestock for their livelihood, might feel very differently about a test to prove a dog's worth/capability.


That's because the last Wolf was shot in 1904 in Germany and we don't have the kind of Stray or Coyote Problem either.

That being said, the Wolf is coming back.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

farmer - friend up the road has some of the best Jack Russell terriers around Rose Reid , used her jack russells to clear out vermin , big racoon sows , some in the 30 pound plus range - and they fought , and the dogs got rips and tears - and had lots of "game".
She also cleared out ground hogs and other game , as a service to the farmer that called her in.
Karelian bear dogs-- 
these dogs were all bred for this purpose .


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, I just think it's a huge difference if you are actually doing it to help a farmer and as a purpose in a humane manner instead of doing it to test if a Pit Bull has the "game" and actually killing and risking your dog with the hogs on purpose just for that kind of thing. If you go that far, risking your dog with hogs, they'd probably risk them in the Pit too.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

selzer said:


> I would expect that GSD people want different traits then Pitbull people. The one his a herding dog, the other is a terrier. Their idea of gameness is different then our idea of hardness or willingness to protect, or drives, because the two breeds are very different. It is very possible that when people with pit bulls view the protection phase of schutzhund they are horrified and think that we in general are scum to train dogs to attack humans and to use a baton on them.


I get a lot of grief for doing Schutzhund with my APBTs..but I don't care. They are an awesome versatile breed and I love seeing them work in good training venues by responsible people. 

There seems to be more of a divide in the APBT community compared to any other breed. I love my Terriers and my "Herder" they each are very different and provide me with compeltely different things.


----------



## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

The guy on the pit forum said his dog died trying to kill a bear. I don't get why they don't just shoot the animal they're hunting once the dog has caught it.


----------



## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Through Jessie I came across this Pit Bull Forum and the stuff I'm reading is absolutely shocking. Half the time I can't believe the "Believes" some people have.
> 
> Apparently the most important trait a pit bull has to have is gameness. Meaning that even if the dog is facing death, he's got to keep going and can't give up. So the natural trait of dogs "flight" does not exist. I asked if that is what we refer as hardness to, but apparently it's not hardness, it's more than that. It's that the dog lays down his life in order to fight until death.
> 
> ...


 i live near the choctawhatchee river its over run with feral hogs it's become great sport for guys to hunt them with dogs. one of our employees brother has hog dogs. he said he lost nine dogs in seven minuets in a fight. but its the training methods that turns me away from it. as a kid we had **** dogs that we used to hunt deer in season that was legal then but now only in certin places. Foxes were fun back then to. times have changed and open areas are getting hard to find except for hog hunting.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

There are areas in rural america where feral pigs are destroying the land or rather the eco system and have savaged humans and tore up some dogs. There is a TLC , Animal Planet or A&E show about hog hunters ,two girls their dad and I think some cur type dogs. Coyotes here in Ohio are a problem and we have bears in our cities ocassionally and my husband and I still say we saw a wolf at a landfill on the Youngstown city limits, Dogs that can control vermin and other wildlife that harm domesticated animals are needed.Where we live you can hear the coyotes howl especially in the summer at twilight and early evening Lucky has howled in return and i have seen several in our yard right outside our fence line. I dont let the dogs out after dark for very long and I've went and fetched Lucky back when he was barking and howling and the coyotes were in the field across from our creek that borders our property.I know very few people who graze their cattle will let them out at night w/ out dogs w/ them. I saw a small section of a pack of coyotes take a cow and calf down at night in South Dakota when we were camping. You would need a dog w/ serious game to handle that. I know the Kouvasc dog is used in Africa to perserve the flocks and help cheetahs stay alive rather then just being hunted.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I understand all that and if it was done correctly, that the dog holds on until the hunter kills it I wouldn't have a problem with it, but having your dogs fight these hogs until either one of them is death, is wrong on so many levels.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

CeCe said:


> The guy on the pit forum said his dog died trying to kill a bear. I don't get why they don't just shoot the animal they're hunting once the dog has caught it.


When I worked in the prison system I knew a deputy warden who bred , raised and hunted American Curs ,at least I think that was what the breed was called. He allegedley bragged that if his dogs didnt hunt he killed them. I always thought about what he'd do to staff if they got trapped in a riot. Made me glad when the son of a dog got transferred to another prison as warden.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

There isn't really a good, easy way to explain "gameness" on a GSD forum to those who don't understand it. I will say this, however. If you don't breed for a performance purpose/task, look what happens to the breeds/lines. Look at the A.S.S. as opposed to the European working lines in terms of health and temperament. Any time you fail to test and cull judiciously, you open the floodgates for weakness to permeate the lines and there is really no going back. You end up having to salvage what you can from a variety of lines and making your own. 

I would never own a Pit Bull bred for anything BUT gameness. The game-bred dogs are going to be the ones who are most likely going to have the CORRECT, inherent APBT temperament. How many game-bred dogs are running around causing problems? Pretty few, I'd say. Rather, the "Am. Bully" types are all over the media. Why? Besides a hundred other reasons, they aren't correct APBTs. They are mixes, bred for bizarre purposes by morons. 

Dog fighting may not be your gig, but you cannot argue with the fact that gameness is at least a worthy trait to breed for. Far better than extreme angulation, for example, in terms of maintaining temperament. 

As an aside, I bred a female (GSD) who fought a black bear at just under a year old. She's a rather highly food-drive, possessive girl and she caught the bear trying to get into her dog food container on the back porch.

I own 2 game-bred Pits currently, and 4 working line German Shepherds (at home, anyway). They are very different dogs with very different correct temperaments. I don't see hog dogs as "lesser" working dogs than GSDs just because their work isn't my cup of tea. As with anything, you will have people who protect their dogs as best they can, and those who take great risks as they view them as simple livestock/tools. The same can be found in EVERY dog venue, imo.


----------



## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> That's because the last Wolf was shot in 1904 in Germany and we don't have the kind of Stray or Coyote Problem either.
> 
> That being said, the Wolf is coming back.


 we have a coyote problem here and we had a german shepherd on the farm and she caught chickens when thay got out and we had rabbits she would catch them too but she never killed one all the years we had her her name was just girl thats all we ever called her. we sicked her on some rats one time that came out from under the barn. she brought one to us alive. When my **** dog puppys got riped up by an old three legged **** i kicked the **** and it attached itself to my foot and climed my leg girl killed him so fast i just stood there in shock. we carried the **** dogs home both lived one would leave a hot deer trail to hunt a **** and the other would no longer hunt ***** at all but became my cold trail deer dog i use to bragg if a deer track could be seen she could track it. yup them was the days when people had party lines big cars and gas was quarter a gallon.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> *Dog fighting may not be your gig*, but you cannot argue with the fact that gameness is at least a worthy trait to breed for. Far better than extreme angulation, for example, in terms of maintaining temperament.


You are absolutely right! It's not my gig. It's brutal, disgusting and there is absolutely NO excuse for it. Not even "gameness".


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The problem with a dog that "won't quit" in the face of real danger is, it's going to be real hard to pass along those genes when it's time to reproduce and the dog is dead because it was "game".


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , I don't think you would put a dog into the field , which is exposing them to maximum risk , without some level of testing first -- even to acclimate the dog to the motion and dekes and charges that what it needs to confront will use in it's arsenal in the fight for life?

I had an American Rat Terrier pup -- at 12 weeks of age , she found a rat whole , the rat came out - man that rat was aggressive . Kippy the ART won - hard fight . 

Germany had boar hunting dogs -- "saupacker" Deutscher Dogge - later renamed Great Danes , but not anything like the great danes of today which look like grey hound type -- . These were shorter and stocky and they were serious business- One of my grandfathers bred them and hunted boar for the table , so I have some pictures of the dogs he had . 
There are hunting dogs which I have been following because I am interested in populations of dogs , breeds, which have been kept for the work and maintain the instinct .
I even belonged to a forum for Basset Fauve de Bretagne . The French dogs , which were kept for, bred for , tested for , hunting were truly impressive dogs , in their tenacity to hunt . The English members , sorry to all English members , kept their dogs for show events. Well guess what ? So many posts from the English members about dogs running off , dogs jerking them around, being obnoxious (my words) -- while the French dogs as shown in youtubeys working were quick to respond even in the high conflict of cornering game.
I follow or try to dissect what works and what does not work.
The dogs that they are using are BRED (speaking of the american hog pits) for this purpose . They are not throwing any old dog into the fray.




come on now , super cute 
basset fauve de bretagne - Google Search


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

an old "dog man" told me , and an officer with the Ontario Humane Society used to doing barn raids where there was dog fight pit activity both said that the dogs bred to have this game - were bred correctly for the breed because it was absolutely unforgiveable to have any man-aggression , and if any hint of this aberrant activity showed itself the dogs were ruthlessly culled . end of story . After the raid patrol cars were called in , and the dog would ride in the car - no problem to the person at all. My friend would have a dog in her official vehicle riding shotgun, and another in the back of the cab in a crate , no problem.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This discussion isn't really that different than people who say Show bred Shepherds are "pretty to look at, but can they work" and scoff at "real" Shepherds who lay by the fire instead of living outdoors because they were bred for that. 
In fact the pit bull folk have a term for any "non game bred" (that is, the parents were matched and maybe the dog itself was, too) dog and that is "pet bull". It's not a "real" pit bull.
On and on. Perhaps all dog breeds have these controversies in their midst.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

VonKromeHaus said:


> Hog hunting is LEGAL with dogs. However, interesting enough, most hog dogs are a type of Cur(Mountain Cur etc.), Catahoulas, and Hounds for finding the hogs...the "strike" dogs if you want true terminology. The Catch dogs are anything from Great Danes, Dogos, American Pit Bull Terriers, American Bulldogs etc. or a mix of those breeds. Most true hog hunters have their own line of dogs that they have been running for years. The newer ones have dogs of all types. I have even seen a vid of a Labx on a hog hunt as a strike dog.
> 
> Typically when APBT(Pit Bull) people talk about "gameness" it is being reffered to as the OLD word used in the pits to describe the dogs. It does refer to the dogs willingness to fight and not back down(scratch).
> 
> ...



I went on the forum Mrs. K is talking about to learn more about Pit bulls in general as I would love to own one someday. But I pretty much got attacked. I brought up the fact that my family's insurance allowed us to won GSDs, but not Dobermans, Rottweilers, and Pit bulls. Alot of them couldn't really grasp or understand it. I think some of the ones on that forum are full of it.

I will check out the one you posted. Thank you for your insight on the APBTs


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

And forum Mrs. K is talking about is the forum that made me start my topic on "Is it purebred or not?".


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> This discussion isn't really that different than people who say Show bred Shepherds are "pretty to look at, but can they work" and scoff at "real" Shepherds who lay by the fire instead of living outdoors because they were bred for that.
> In fact the pit bull folk have a term for any "non game bred" (that is, the parents were matched and maybe the dog itself was, too) dog and that is "pet bull". It's not a "real" pit bull.
> On and on. Perhaps all dog breeds have these controversies in their midst.


I just can't comprehend the fact that you would willingly send a dog into his death with the attitude "If he doesn't survive it, he wasn't worth it anyways."

I am not a soft person. I have believes that some people think is wrong, but THAT takes the ice off the cake... no, I can't comprehend it and it's just not the same. The cruelty and brutality can't even be compared. There is absolutely no comparison between Schutzhund and sending a dog into a fight saying "If he lives, he's got game, if not, he ain't worth it."


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, you cannot expect/know that your dog will engage a perpetrator and continue to hold/fight him even if he is fought or clubbed off, without actually training/testing the dog for that as per schutzhund or protection sports.

So one needs to test the pit bull dog's gameness somehow, if they want to breed only those dogs that are the best examples of the breed. Personally, I could care less if there is never another pit bull bred anywhere, as they are not my thing. But there are a LOT of people who feel the same way about GSDs. 

Dog fighting is despicable, I think that hunting and engaging other critters can show the dog's courage and staying power. But I could not put a dog I cared about through that. So, I do not own such dogs. Works for me. If we make laws against everything that repels us, than we have to expect others to make laws against us for doing the things we do with our dogs. There are people out there that believe that obedience training is disgusting as it is forcing the dog to do what the human wants it to do. Add shock or prong collars to that, and we are devils. Lots of people don't like chaining dogs, but there are also people that do not like crating dogs. And some weirdows think that dogs should run free all the time. 

If a dog runs free all the time, then it is a dog's natural instinct to go up against critters for food or territory, and other dogs as well. Do I think we should throw a dog into a pit with another dog, bear, or bull? No way. I would imagine that the person who hunts with dogs, where the dogs actually engage the prey animal, learns a lot about their dogs that they cannot tell if he shoots the animal before there is any engagement. I don't know if I like that they do this, I never could.

As for the bear dogs, well, they have been bred and trained to engage and chase bear. The point of them is to chase the bear away from human dwellings and such. The point is to NOT shoot the bears. Bears that are comfortable close to humans are a danger and would generally be slaughtered. The bear dogs are not bred to be killed by the bears, but to engage and run them off. Injuries are bound to happen. And you are going to want to know what that dog is made out of before you sell the dog as a bear-dog, or breed the dog. 

In search and rescue, it is the norm that dogs are injured, often seriously. You allow that for the greater good of rescuing a person. 

I think there is something special when you view the dog breed of your choice doing what they were bred to do. Watching a dog use their natural instincts and talents to do a job. A terrier was bred to go after game. I guess I can understand why people might hunt their pits on wild hogs.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hey guys , I am not a hunter - if I were it would be a point and shoot with a camera -- remember me from all the tasty ideas on the becoming a vegetarian thread -- there's a reason for it .
I do think however that there is a necessity for dogs for all different jobs , and fair hunting and natural management are valid and justified.

Mrs K -- you are surprised by the severe culling , but that was the way in grandfathers day -- and the way in the eastern bloc - a 'survival or selection of the fittest'
More recent , and oft quoted , when we think of the bucolic cloud fluffy sheep and the GSD -- well look what Manfred Heyne said and how it was when the dogs were out in the field to make a living for their owners - the dogs that were selected to create the GSD " If something happened to a sheep in the shepherd’s care during the tending season [_if it was injured or such_], the shepherd had to replace it!!! Because grazing conditions were very limited only correct, honest, and reliable dogs could be used!! Nevertheless if any sort of [_character/working_] faults became apparent in the dog, he would become a chained dog on the farm, or he would behung from the nearest tree!!! This is how [_breeding_] selections were made one hundred and more years ago." quote Manfred Heyne . Nothing less that correct was tolerated . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Carmen, I know what's been done in the past. THIS IS NOT THE PAST! 

Just because people did crap in the past doesn't mean it's right or ethical! I have no problem with culling, if you want to do it, do it humanely. 

If you want to go out, hunt hogs, do it but do it humanely. 

Culling is what it is but it doesn't have to be brutal!

In this time and age, we have a choice!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm not talking about dispatching dogs -- they should be removed from breeding though. 
What I am addressing is the attitude dogs being bred away from what they should be .


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I'm not talking about dispatching dogs -- they should be removed from breeding though.
> What I am addressing is the attitude dogs being bred away from what they should be .


Honestly, some breeds SHOULD be bred away from what they should be. 

Not every breed. Breeds that have a real purpose should stay on what they are but what good is a Pit Fighter for? WHY would you need a dog like that? Why would you continue to breed a dog like that? For OUR amusement? There is no real purpose other than amusement the human species. 

Helping, working is a difference but this has nothing to do with helping, nothing to do with working, it's for the sheer and brutal amusement and that is just not right, in my opinion.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Carmen seems to have the most experience/comprehension of this issue and shares a similar understanding to my own. Most others seem to have completely different perspectives on it, or at least, different interpretations of terminology. 

Mrs. K, with all due respect, you aren't "getting it" and that's mostly why you're outraged. You didn't understand my post at all. There are so many myths perpetuated about dog fighting, hog hunting, and other violent sports, it's impossible to even speak in terms that everyone will interpret the same way, hence the constant controversy. I am confused as to what, exactly, you are talking about when you refer to "sending a dog to his death." Could you please clarify?


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Ok, your post was posted after I typed mine, Mrs.K.

I don't think you are in a position to say a breed should be bred away from what it was intended to be simply because you don't find enjoyment or purpose in its intent. Ask someone whose dogs protect them from being killed by a feral hog if they agree with you. Something tells me they won't. 

Pit Bulls, properly bred, for a purpose, are extremely versatile. Find me something they can't excel in. Gameness/heart/grit is a wonderful thing.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> There isn't really a good, easy way to explain "gameness" on a GSD forum to those who don't understand it.
> .


Actually there is a good way - it is the same thing that a ScH dog will show when it doesn't "give up" or quit when the stick is used on the field. the stick is of course a much lower level test but the idea is the same "Courage and tenacity under fire" (or a percieved threat to the dog itself!).

It is a real quality that any real GSD owner hopes that their dog has (and never has to demonstrate for real!).

A small example - my dog and I and a friend with their dog (both male GSD's and the same age (15mo or thereabouts) in an obedience class indoors with about 10 other people and their dogs.

My friend was practicing the recall in front of the rest of the class who had their dogs all lined up so the dog doing the recall would go down the line in front of them.

So she calls her dog and he starts down the line toward her and decides to take a detour to go see another friendly dog that he knew in the line.

One idiot big guy thought that the GSD was coming at his dog (dumb guy!) but he was fearful for his dog so he rushed at the GSD yelling and hollering and swinging his fists over his head. My friends dog jumped back and ran back to his owner and went behind her as she started yelling at the idiot.

My dog, same age, rushed to the very end of his lead and barked at the guy and not in a real friendly manner. The fast staccato bark from a GSD. Of course I was also yelling at the guy and moving forward toward him as I didn't want my friends dog to be struck by this guy.

Afterward I realized that my dog, still really a puppy with no protective training whatsoever, acted as I would really expect him to in the face of a threat.

Which GSD reaction would you want?

No question in my mind! 

Now of course the dog has to learn to distinguish between a real threat and a non threat but that should come with a little maturity.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, some breeds SHOULD be bred away from what they should be.
> 
> Not every breed. Breeds that have a real purpose should stay on what they are but what good is a Pit Fighter for? WHY would you need a dog like that? Why would you continue to breed a dog like that? For OUR amusement? There is no real purpose other than amusement the human species.
> 
> Helping, working is a difference but this has nothing to do with helping, nothing to do with working, it's for the sheer and brutal amusement and that is just not right, in my opinion.


This is not the past. Some breeds SHOULD be bred away from what they should be. People could say the same about protection and GSDs. They could say get a gun if you need protection.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Mrs. K, with all due respect, you aren't "getting it" and that's mostly why you're outraged. You didn't understand my post at all. There are so many myths perpetuated about dog fighting, hog hunting, and other violent sports, it's impossible to even speak in terms that everyone will interpret the same way, hence the constant controversy. I am confused as to what, exactly, you are talking about when you refer to "sending a dog to his death." Could you please clarify?


I have posted the link to the topic. It's all in there. Those people willingly send their dogs into death and said so themselves, that if the dog doesn't survive it, it's not worth it anyways. They are having their dogs fight and kill hogs to test the gameness which is a replacement for dog fighting. If they willingly accept that their dogs can get killed in the process I wouldn't be surprised if they kept on matching their dogs if it still was legal. 

I have absolutely no issue with hunting, if it's done correctly, fast and humane. I have NO issue with culling if it's done humane and fast. 

But doing this, taking your dog out, to fight hogs because you want to know if they have gameness, and saying "I'll morn but if he's killed he didn't have it." 

That's something I cannot and will not understand, nor condone. 

And yes, in MY opinioin, there is no need for a Pit Fighter. I am glad this is a free country with free speech. If it involved THAT much brutatility that you have to send your dog out to kill hogs or get killed in the process to test if the dog has what it takes, then it should be illegal and rightfully so. 

That's my opinion. And it's just that, an opinion.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Codmaster, I meant that it's very hard to explain in less than a thousand pages why some believe that a dog must be matched (fought) to test gameness. Your analogies are pretty good, as good as we can expect between sport GSD people and game dog people. 

There needs to be a distinction made between game and dead-game. It seems some are talking about dead-game, which obviously can only be tested once. Gameness, if you define it as tenacity and courage and fight even when you're losing, or under great pressure, can be proven many times without being killed. One dog does not always die in either hunting or fighting. That is a common misconception. Many dogmen would pull a dog they saw was going to likely be dead-game so it would live to be bred.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but then dogs would be generic , with no distinctive breed characteristics - they would be ersatz , look like one thing act like another. In my opinion that is when it gets risky or useless for the party getting the dog. You don't know what to expect . Or the dog simply can not perform to be useful. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Codmaster, I meant that it's very hard to explain in less than a thousand pages why some believe that a dog must be matched (fought) to test gameness. Your analogies are pretty good, as good as we can expect between sport GSD people and game dog people.
> 
> There needs to be a distinction made between game and dead-game. It seems some are talking about dead-game, which obviously can only be tested once. Gameness, if you define it as tenacity and courage and fight even when you're losing, or under great pressure, can be proven many times without being killed. One dog does not always die in either hunting or fighting. That is a common misconception. Many dogmen would pull a dog they saw was going to likely be dead-game so it would live to be bred.


Go back to the link I posted and read that topic. Then, hopefully, you'll understand why I am outraged.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

What I found in my research on gameness and dogmen:
(Read down to Dogmen and Game.)
No one has to agree, and I'm sure many will find fault, but judge as you will.

http://pitbullsadangertosociety.yolasite.com/


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K you said For OUR amusement? There is no real purpose other than amusement the human species. 

Real protection, real herding, real detection , real hunting, or trailing scent hounds that find wounded game days after miles away , guide dogs , not for human amusement at all. Inherent attributes must be kept alive in the gene pool and one way to do it is to use the dog in real situations .


----------



## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

You realize that from another perspective it is just as appalling to some people that we send our dogs in mock attacks on humans?

FWIW, one of the things on my "bucket list" is to go boar hunting with a spear. You let the dogs catch the boar, and then come in and finish the boar off with a spear.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

I have stated several times that you are going to find that people run the gamut between conscientious and totally callous in ANY venue. I just don't see where this is so much different. 

You're talking about hunting, then matching, then fighting hogs, so it's a little confusing.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Im a true semi amateur dog lover. I understand Mrs. K's outrage but I also know that Mountain Cur and Karolian Bear Dogs still serve their original purpose they were created for. I lived on a dairy farm till I was 8. Cows who didnt give milk died and went to our freezer,so did pigs,chickens etc. Gameness as breed characteristic was and is needed if your dog is hunting wild boar,running off bears or running a pack of wiley coyotes from your master's herd of sheep ,goats or cows.I think back to the deputy warden i worked w/ who bragged how on a hunt the Cur dog who didnt hunt he shot them right there.I think that is where the outrage is from. If your getting your rocks off watching your pit,cur or bear dog die then I really want to see you in the projects in a fight w/out a gun. There are idiots in all breeds who own dogs for the feeling of power and if you sit on your butt w/ your gun safety on while your dog dies I wonder what your really about. From the shows I watched re wild boars dogs have died so have people. When I watched the show every body wanted the hog to die and it didnt seem as though they risked their dogs anymore then they risked themselves which was actually quite alot. In my post previously the Kouvas(mispelled) who guard the flock against Cheetahs probably has gameness and some have been lost to wild predators but their primary job is prevent loss of life.I understand the need to maintain the breeds ability to do the job they were created for however letting a bear kill your dog while you the owner watch w/ your gun really thats the only way to protect the purity of the breed? Sounds like the idiot bangers I work w/ and all the machismo that leads to the horror stories we see on TV. They may be legal in their actions but their really not that different.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I just can't comprehend the fact that you would willingly send a dog into his death with the attitude "If he doesn't survive it, he wasn't worth it anyways."
> 
> I am not a soft person. I have believes that some people think is wrong, but THAT takes the ice off the cake... no, I can't comprehend it and it's just not the same. The cruelty and brutality can't even be compared. There is absolutely no comparison between Schutzhund and sending a dog into a fight saying "If he lives, he's got game, if not, he ain't worth it."


 
How do you feel about hunting dogs who are bred and trained to track and catch dangerous game, i.e mountain lions or bear or hogs. The handlers could be "sending them to their death" as well. 
Or how about a K9 who is sent into a building to find the bad guy - many of them also die or get wounded in doing their job (just like their fellow human officers!).

These are "real" - not a game/sport like scH.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Forgot - how about the dogs whose "job" is to protect sheep for example even at the cost of their lives with wolves and the like? These dogs also "fight to kill" different purpose and not just a gamble but the result might be the same.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> How do you feel about hunting dogs who are bred and trained to track and catch dangerous game, i.e mountain lions or bear or hogs. The handlers could be "sending them to their death" as well.
> Or how about a K9 who is sent into a building to find the bad guy - many of them also die or get wounded in doing their job (just like their fellow human officers!).
> 
> These are "real" - not a game/sport like scH.


There is a fine line between all of that. Sending a dog into a building to get the bad guy is a necessity and helps us. Fighting a dog to one another is for amusement. 

Yes, we kill, we kill for food but if we kill and fight dogs just because we enjoy it, there is something seriously wrong.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> *Mrs K you said For OUR amusement? There is no real purpose other than amusement the human species. *
> 
> Real protection, real herding, real detection , real hunting, or trailing scent hounds that find wounded game days after miles away , guide dogs , not for human amusement at all. Inherent attributes must be kept alive in the gene pool and one way to do it is to use the dog in real situations .


Yes, DOG FIGHTING. What purpose does it have? Give me one good reason why you need to fight two dogs other than for amusement? 

That's the difference between Pit Fighters and dogs that have a REAL purpose.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you may remember last month when my husband was out on his daily 5ks walk he changed his route so that the wind was out of his face. At the top of our rural road he was confronted by a pit bull , have no idea why it was here or where it came from as they are not legal to own in Ontario due to breed specific anti breed legislation. Nevertheless it rushed out to the road and held him. Lucky for him he has some savvy having watched some of the decoy sessions here . Lucky he did not run or kick out . He did step backwards but saw that he was drawing the dog closer , so at the top of his lungs in a forceful way he told the dog to go home. The house owner came out surprised and got control of the dog. I have driven by the house many times since then and did not see a dog . That same week a jogger was mauled in the US . 
Last year my friend in BC had a relative who had her calf muscle torn , hospitalized , complications because this lady also has MS . 
That is what happens when dogs are not bred true to form because a properly bred pit bull should have zero man - aggression. Those dogs would have been put down.
Have I seen a man aggressive pit bull. Yes "the dogman" a Trinidadian , took on a man aggressive pit bull pup , a red nose ? , and at 9 - 10 weeks of age that dog would put many working gsd to shame with its ferocity. Even he said that they would put it down . As far as I know the dog went to Trinidad.

the pit bull should by the nanny dog , gentle to a fault to its people and their children.

Carmen


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I can't believe that so many on here seem to condone dog fighting... wow.. I'm seriously shocked.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I never said dog or pit fighting - that is reprehensible . 
I don't like grey hound racing - we have a local rescue group where I have offered my assistance.
They have the rescue group because dogs that can't race , won't race, can't win would be put down . Very clinical. 
That serves no purpose.

Also Rhodesian Ridgebacks - fighting lions .


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K how do you get from hog control to dog fighting ?


----------



## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I can't believe that so many on here seem to condone dog fighting... wow.. I'm seriously shocked.


From what I've read....and I could be seriously wrong, so please don't jump me if I am....the majority of the people on here aren't condoning dog fighting (especially not dogs fighting each other) but rather hunting with these dogs and similar things. It seems like a few people have misunderstood the actual question first presented in this topic and have gone in different directions, and that a few others are focused on dogs vs dogs, not dogs doing the jobs they were bred to do (no matter how brutal or life-threatening they can be). 

I could be wrong.

I haven't really seen anyone, from what I have read, saying that dogs vs dogs is a great idea or a good thing.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Mrs K how do you get from hog control to dog fighting ?


If you had read the link I posted you'd know that this has nothing to do about hog control but testing the dog for gameness. Meaning, FIGHTING the dog with a hog.

As a very wise woman said today, there is a fine line between hunting and fighting.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Chelle, I couldn't read past the first line on that site you linked to, when the big picture of a DOGO ARGENTINO flashed by. 

Mrs. K, you're missing my point. We are so fundamentally bipolar, that I don't think there is much point in trying to explain where I'm coming from anymore. The fact that you would suggest breeds should not be kept true to their initial intent tells me that this isn't something we are going to resolve and find common ground on via an internet forum. 

Carmen, awesome posts on this thread. Really shows a broad understanding of the big picture.

I like how people think it's cruel to risk your dog in a hunt, but ok to put 3 e-collars on it at full power to straighten up a sit in the name of points. :smirk: Cruelty never happens in FR, MR, SchH, IPO, etc. :laugh:


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nope, we do NOT condone dog fighting. But sending our dogs to possible death, well, that is what you do with a police dog, that is what you do with a search and rescue dog, that is what you do when you have a cattle dog. Dogs herd the cattle, but sometimes a beef does not want to be herded, and will turn on the dog. And hunting with dogs, some of us might not do it ourselves, but do not want them to make it illegal, which is what your title implies.

It is legal to hunt hogs with dogs. I do not want to make it illegal. That does not make me pro-dog fighting. It does not mean I want to go run my dogs on hogs. (kind of sounds like a Dr. Seuss book.)


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Chelle, I couldn't read past the first line on that site you linked to, when the big picture of a DOGO ARGENTINO flashed by.


That's fine with me. You missed the point. That's ok.


----------



## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

wildo said:


> Just to be clear, Mrs.K- are you saying that people are capturing a wild boar and literally putting it in a ring with a dog and betting on the outcome- not dog fighting per se, but a dog fighting a wild animal for profit? In my opinion, that is very much different than a hunter using dogs to bay or catch boar.


 I was rased in the country and live in the country first of all the hogs here came from the differant farms letting animals loose accidently over the years. they werent nessarly turned loose to hunt I grew up holding pigs for my daddy while he cut them and notched their ears. the ears were notched to tell them from the neighbor's hogs, some two by eights and dogs where the only thing stopping them old sows from getting us. that was the sixties now hog hunts are sport and feral hogs come in all shaps and sizes some look like the old piny woods rooters from yesteryear and some look like your every day domestic pig. back in the day a dog came to the farm and if they dident bother the live stock and chickens they stayed and learned other wise they were shot. it was deemed to be rude to give away a dog that was known harm live stock. Today people buy an old bore hog pin him up and throw the dogs in with him thats how they train and check for that so called gaminess. a work aquaintanec came home one day to find all his hog dogs that he had tied out were dead and his hog was gone. The dogs will fight alot amongst them selves and blue ointment is a must have to keep the flys away from dog fighting wounds and hog hunting injuries. these dog are not every day pets. just for the record I'm a shepherd lover because of a farm dog.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. K, you are really reaching, there. So many of us condone dog fighting? Yeehaw, guys! Dog fight- Saturday night! My house! BYOB and chewing tobacco! Y'all in?! :crazy: No one said anything remotely close to that. If you just want to disagree and see no use for Pit Bulls, then say so. 

When I first asked you what you were talking about, you cited fighting dogs against hogs. Many pointed out where those traits would be useful and helpful to humans. Now, it seems you've flip-flopped to dog-fighting. It makes it difficult to explain the reasoning behind the perspective if you keep switching back and forth between subjects when someone disagrees and explains why.


----------



## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> If you had read the link I posted you'd know that this has nothing to do about hog control but testing the dog for gameness. Meaning, FIGHTING the dog with a hog.
> 
> As a very wise woman said today, there is a fine line between hunting and fighting.


Those hogs had to be killed anyway for population control reasons. Given that, why not also use it as a round about breed test?


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think the key word is fighting. I see the use for hunting. But not for fighting.

I am so confused in this thread.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I know fully well how cruel the SchH sport can be and I HATE IT!

I understand the big picture but please, tell me WHY would you have to send a dog out, to fight a hog in order to test the gameness and THEN fully accept that the dog might be killed in the process. WHAT IS THAT GOOD FOR? THAT IS MY QUESTION!!! 

And that is what has been said by so called "DOGMEN" on that Forum I posted a link to. These people actually do that. I asked them if it was worth it killing the dog and the guy said something along the line that he mourned the dog but the dog simply didn't have it, otherwise it would still be alive. 

This is NOT about hunting hogs to control them. It's about purposely setting the dog up to fight hogs in order test if they have game. Too bad if they get killed in the process. 

WHAT is so hard to understand about that? And how can anyone, possibly compare THAT to SAR or Police Dog Work? 

Are you kidding me? 

Somebody sending a dog into a fight with a hog to test gameness is SO FAR AWAY from SAR and the Police OR SchH... there is absolutely NO comparison, nor can't it EVER be compared!

I don't send my dog out to test gameness. I send my dog out because I want to help a fellow human being. I don't want my dog to get killed but it might happen. Slim chance, but it could happen. If it happens I'm not going to stand there "Oh well, she just didn't have it." I'm going to be DEVASTATED! 

I can't even believe WHAT you are saying, Selzer. 

I can't believe ANY of you! 

Wow...just wow...


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Chelle, I don't think I missed the point. I think that site MADE my point. You have to have at least a fundamental understanding of a subject to speak persuasively on it. 

How seriously would you take a site like that about German Shepherds with a Malinois on the front page?


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Carmspack statement that the Pit bull was called the Nanny dog is absolutely right. Pit Bulls were often photgraphed in the late victorian times w/ small children. Carmen your story about the Pit bull who stopped your husband and the story of the red puppy is so true. My first year running the dog program we were took a baby pit puppy we had to pick carefully a handler and we went w/ a guy ,no gang ties ever and who understood the liability in training this pup. That puppy was so aggressive w/ other animals and unfortunately humans. We had to have the puppy taken out of the program and it was put down. the pup was borne to a mother and father from a fighting ring. the puppy was beyond dominant and aggressive. breeding does run true and that incredibly cute baby was put down befor it was a year and half b/c it's living endangered others. By the way that handler was ready to quit after that due to feeling like a failure and blaming himself. I also worked w/ a LT in the prison system who raised Pits for a breeder. her big red dog was the biggest love bug ever. he was a I think a champion and was retired when i met him. Her Pitties were mushes, I dont think certain people should have guns and weapons and certainly some people should never have a large breed dog b/c it is a loaded gun in the wrong hands.Chelle had a link to a website regarding Pits and the problem the pitbull has if placed w/ the wrong person. Good info there.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BR870 said:


> Those hogs had to be killed anyway for population control reasons. Given that, why not also use it as a round about breed test?



But that is NOT why these dogs are sent in to kill the hogs. That makes the difference.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Wow, just wow, is right. For about the tenth time, THERE ARE HILLBILLY LOSERS IN EVERY CORNER OF EVERY SPORT, DOG SPORT OR NOT. I just fail to see how or why that leads you to any of the conclusions you seem to have come to. 

Now we're back to hogs, when we were just talking about dog fighting. :crazy:

There is no "point" in MANY things related to dogs. Heck, SchH as a sport has no "point" because it was intended as a test, not as a sport. Should we then abolish it because making it a sport has led to cruelty as people compete for points and egos are on the line?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Wow, just wow, is right. For about the tenth time, THERE ARE HILLBILLY LOSERS IN EVERY CORNER OF EVERY SPORT, DOG SPORT OR NOT. I just fail to see how or why that leads you to any of the conclusions you seem to have come to.
> 
> Now we're back to hogs, when we were just talking about dog fighting. :crazy:
> 
> There is no "point" in MANY things related to dogs. Heck, SchH as a sport has no "point" because it was intended as a test, not as a sport. Should we then abolish it because making it a sport has led to cruelty as people compete for points and egos are on the line?


Yes a DOG FIGHTING A HOG is a Dog Fighting. Isn't it?


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Chelle, I don't think I missed the point. I think that site MADE my point. You have to have at least a fundamental understanding of a subject to speak persuasively on it.


Read farther down. You gave up too soon. Again, that's ok. I don't care.



Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Carmspack statement that the Pit bull was called the Nanny dog is absolutely right.


They were never the nanny dog. 
The TRUTH About Pit Bulls: The Nanny Dog Myth Revealed

Just sayin'.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

For whatever it's worth I completely understand Mrs.K's point. 
In all of these other scenarios something "could" happen to a dog. A Police dog "could" be killed. A dog hunting various animals "could" be injured or killed.
Sending a dog out to fight another animal such as hog or racoon just to test its gameness is completely different IMO and inhumane. Brutality just for brutalitys sake. No real purpose. Read the link she provided.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Jack's Dad*
> _I've been hunting with dogs. That's different from going out hunting for a racoon or hog so that your dog can fight with them.
> That's how I took what she said, but maybe i misunderstood.
> If there is a overpopulation of hogs or any other animal I don't see any problem with hunting them. However I would shoot them not let my dog attack one to fight with._


At least one person that understands exactly where I am coming from.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> For whatever it's worth I completely understand Mrs.K's point.
> In all of these other scenarios something "could" happen to a dog. A Police dog "could" be killed. A dog hunting various animals "could" be injured or killed.
> Sending a dog out to fight another animal such as hog or racoon just to test its gameness is completely different IMO and inhumane. Brutality just for brutalitys sake. No real purpose. Read the link she provided.


Thank you. :hug:
There is a difference and the difference is the brutality.


----------



## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> But that is NOT why these dogs are sent in to kill the hogs. That makes the difference.


No, ultimately it is. All hog hunting, by any method, is for population control reasons. Hogs are not indigenous, and are highly destructive. They have to be killed by one means or another.

So given that those hogs will be killed anyway, if someone wants to send their dog in to test for traits the breed should have, well I ain't gonna lose sleep.

I'm far more worried about the people indiscriminately breeding pitbulls for the pet market. Breeds that are not tested, no matter how "cruel" some may feel the test is, end up in the gutter. Breeding for the pet market destroys breeds. I'd rather them be bred to hunt hogs than bred to be pets...


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> There is a fine line between all of that. Sending a dog into a building to get the bad guy is a necessity and helps us. Fighting a dog to one another is for amusement.
> 
> Yes, we kill, we kill for food but if we kill and fight dogs just because we enjoy it, there is something seriously wrong.


I said that there is a different purpose.

The real question is should the breeders of GSD select for "Gameness" or ignore it as a temperament feature?

What do you think - do you want your dogs to possess true "Gameness"?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> I said that there is a different purpose.
> 
> The real question is should the breeders of GSD select for "Gameness" or ignore it as a temperament feature?
> 
> What do you think - do you want your dogs to possess true "Gameness"?



Honestly, if that means that I have to send my dog to kill hogs to test that trait, that's the day I quit owning dogs!

There are other ways to test if a dog is willed enough to go beyond his boundaries.

And one thing is for sure. Never, ever will I own a pit bull or ANY breed, that needs to be send out to fight another living being till death just to test their true "Gameness".

The great thing about SAR... you don't need a dog to do it!


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> Read farther down. You gave up too soon. Again, that's ok. I don't care.
> They were never the nanny dog.
> The TRUTH About Pit Bulls: The Nanny Dog Myth Revealed
> 
> Just sayin'.


 
Also *just sayin'* How many of those dogs listed in that "yellow journalism" example of reporting were DNA tested to be true pit bulls?

I assume that you (and they) are actually referring to a single breed (APBT or Staffordshire Terrier) by "pit bull" are you not? If not then any comparisons to any other single breed would be statistically meaningless of course.

Would you(and the good folks who wrote the article you referenced) include pit bull mixes in the count? If so, what % of true pit bull would it take to count? 

Or would a square head, ans a muscular build and a happy tail be enought o get included?


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes, there is a purpose in hog hunting and breeding dogs with the grit to do it. When your livelihood is threatened by these animals, and you are forced to do something about it, perhaps you will understand why you'd want dogs bred and tested for that purpose to stand behind you and the hogs. 

I have never been in that position, thankfully, but I can still appreciate a beautiful, powerful animal doing what it was bred to do-hold large game for the sake of its master's safety! 

As to the nanny dog myth thing...that's a joke, right?


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I said that there is a different purpose.
> 
> The real question is should the breeders of GSD select for "Gameness" or ignore it as a temperament feature?
> 
> What do you think - do you want your dogs to possess true "Gameness"?


So codmaster, what would you consider an adequate "gameness" test for the GSD.

Please don't tell me schutzhund.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> Read farther down. You gave up too soon. Again, that's ok. I don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the link. I will finish reading it more throughly. I spend alot of my days w/ youth who you wouldnt want near your family per their record.They come from families who if they dont fight a dog sure as heck bet on them. I wonder what the PitBull would be today if not closely aligned with drug trade,fight clubs and gangs. My friend the Lt's dogs which are pits from a breeder who AKC showed were kid friendly and still imposing looking. I guess I'm a pollyanna I believe the Pitbull can be a pet. I have GSDs they are pet quality . If your a breeder are not some dogs not good enough to show AKC ,schutzhund or SAR ? Many sell those dogs as pets w/ the stipulation they must be neutered. The family gets a healthy pet and the breed hopefully another great ambassador. Speaking of nanny dog ,the GSDs founder believed and stated the GSD should love children.I realize based on your link there may be some doubt to the Pits nanny staus. I would also suggest that you take a look at Bad Rap and Best friends work w/ the Vick dogs a number of them are in forever homes w/ knowledgable owners and have been quite sucessful. Several I believe have passed their CGC test.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't really see any true, fair comparisons between the proper tests for the correct temperament of GSDs and APBTs, personally. Very different dogs. Different purposes, and both equally respectable and valuable. I will always own both, though I may retire to just Pits...so much easier. :wub:


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We can leave the hogs and the dogs out of it I guess. It is simply fighting for the purpose of fighting that is so ridiculous, and in the case of animals cruel. 

But the hogs must be hunted and removed. And dogs have been used for this, and have proved their worth in managing hogs. If the dogs were all killed in the process, it would not be a breed test. My guess is that the majority of people do not wait for the dog to kill the hog. 

Should it be illegal? Well, ya know, I prefer to have fewer laws, and let people govern themselves. Just because some people take things too far does not mean all people take things too far, and laws should be made against everything under the sun. I live in the midst of hunters, trappers, **** hunters with dogs, and farmers. They take animals for their meat and for their hides/furs, and perhaps the **** hunters like the fight. I don't know, I think most are taking them for the fur or the hunt though. The hounds tree the raccoon, and the hunters shoot the ****. But if the **** turns and fights the dog needs to be able to care for himself, because at that point, you cannot shoot the raccoon because you will most likely kill your dog. I am guessing it is similar with hogs. You might be able to spear the hog, but shoot it, well, I cannot imagine shooting into a dog fight. 

Nature is pretty ugly. Mother nature is not a sweet old dame. Predators attack and kill prey animals. Cats play with their prey. Humans actually try to find quick and efficient methods to dispatch things.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What I find truly sad is this: I can't/won't show pics because they are deplorable. 
Hog hunting is nothing in comparison. Why are there so many cruel humans in this world??
Stop The Dog Meat Smuggling Trade! - PetitionBuzz


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

D&L's mom, I don't want to nitpick, because I agree with you, mostly, but the AKC doesn't recognize the APBT, therefore, it was and AKC breeder, they were AmStaffs. 

Isn't it amazing that the dog that was the symbol of our country's military is not even recognized by the AKC?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes they do recognize APBTs.
ETA - Oh you're right, it's Staffordshire Bull Terriers I'm thinking of.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> What I find truly sad is this: I can't/won't show pics because they are deplorable.
> Hog hunting is nothing in comparison. Why are there so many cruel humans in this world??
> Stop The Dog Meat Smuggling Trade! - PetitionBuzz


Jane... I guarantee you there will always be somebody saying "That's the purpose they were bred for." 

Absolutely disgusting and deplorable. I agree. 

I wouldn't even have issues with cultures and other people consuming dog meat as long as it's done humanely.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Maybe I'm the exception here but Ive seen Pits that were a menace and Pits that were nanny dogs ok therapy dogs.Ive seen GSDs that were freaking psycho and i see the wonderful GSDs represented here. I'm scared by dobies but I have met some real sweeties. The whole idea of gameness not sure whether I want a GSd w/ it as they are independent thinking dogs as it is.The problem I think that drew the reaction is let the dog die while you sit on your butt w/ your gun cause if your dog cant win he should die. I watched the hog hunter shows and have family in the south who if it moves they hunt it ,got no problem w/ that. Ive not seen or heard some one let their dog die just to see how good they were. If their willing to do that come to Youngstown Ill drop them off at projects there on the Eastside. I'll give them a blade but it will be gunfight. If they live they got game!


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

vom Eisenherz said:


> D&L's mom, I don't want to nitpick, because I agree with you, mostly, but the AKC doesn't recognize the APBT, therefore, it was and AKC breeder, they were AmStaffs.
> 
> Isn't it amazing that the dog that was the symbol of our country's military is not even recognized by the AKC?


Sorry I get them confused. While I hate breed specific legislation Ill probably not have a Bully breed , OK is there any registration such as UKC that does register pitties? The fact they were symbols and cant be recognized is so wrong. Wouldnt registration lead to a way to steer the breed to legitimacy?


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

ADBA recognizes Pits- that's where the gamedogs are going to be registered, primarily. UKC is registering mostly the "Am Bully" type lately, though there are some exceptions. That may be what you're thinking of. I'm going to start showing mine at ADBA shows and maybe do some weight pull. Or wait, is that cruel to force them to drag heavy stuff?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I gotta tell you I don't understand hog hunting with dogs. I've hog hunted since I was a young teen and never had a problem killing them with a rifle off a 4-wheeler or out of a stand, but that's just me.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Whats ADBA stand for? I really only know AKC.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I gotta tell you I don't understand hog hunting with dogs. I've hog hunted since I was a young teen and never had a problem killing them with a rifle off a 4-wheeler or out of a stand, but that's just me.


That's how we do it in Germany. 

If you kill, kill fast and with less pain as possible. At least that is what I've learned from hunting classes... but I guess, to each his own.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I gotta tell you I don't understand hog hunting with dogs. I've hog hunted since I was a young teen and never had a problem killing them with a rifle off a 4-wheeler or out of a stand, but that's just me.


Sure, anyone can do that. 
If you were really game you would get off of your four wheeler and choke those hogs to death with your bare hands. 
Then we would know your real gameness.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I gotta tell you I don't understand hog hunting with dogs. I've hog hunted since I was a young teen and never had a problem killing them with a rifle off a 4-wheeler or out of a stand, but that's just me.


 
I saw one scene where they had an old jeep and were shooting from there. I just want the Jeep to Baha and mud. People in my family have sutured their dogs and done everything they could to save a beagle ,lab or any hunting dog.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, some breeds SHOULD be bred away from what they should be.
> 
> Not every breed. Breeds that have a real purpose should stay on what they are but what good is a Pit Fighter for? WHY would you need a dog like that? Why would you continue to breed a dog like that? For OUR amusement? There is no real purpose other than amusement the human species.


The very traits that made the ABPT a good fighter, make him a good catch dog for hog hunting.

So it is true, there is no need for a dogfighting dog any longer. So the ABPT must either change, find a new venue for its talents, or die out. I think that hog hunting is a perfect adaptation for the modern ABPT. As a bonus to this, hog hunters cannot have DA dogs running with their valuable strike and bay dogs, so they will select for a Pit Bull with less dog-aggression. They help to rid the countryside of feral hogs. Win-win.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Sure, anyone can do that.
> If you were really game you would get off of your four wheeler and choke those hogs to death with your bare hands.
> Then we would know your real gameness.


Like I said the owners could come to Y-town ,OH Im sure I can get them in a situation so they show their gameness.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Maybe I'm the exception here but Ive seen Pits that were a menace and Pits that were nanny dogs ok therapy dogs.Ive seen GSDs that were freaking psycho and i see the wonderful GSDs represented here. I'm scared by dobies but I have met some real sweeties. The whole idea of gameness not sure whether I want a GSd w/ it as they are independent thinking dogs as it is.The problem I think that drew the reaction is let the dog die while you sit on your butt w/ your gun cause if your dog cant win he should die. I watched the hog hunter shows and have family in the south who if it moves they hunt it ,got no problem w/ that. Ive not seen or heard some one let their dog die just to see how good they were. If their willing to do that come to Youngstown Ill drop them off at projects there on the Eastside. I'll give them a blade but it will be gunfight. If they live they got game!



LOL, I survived three years in Youngstown -- not living there, but going to school there. We had two murders on campus in one week my last year there. I kept a crowbar next to my stick shift and a pellet gun under the seat, never had to use either thank God. One night, I agreed to drive some lady home (her car was broke down), and stopped at the babysitter to pick up her kid first. Our class got out after 10PM so it was late by the time we got to the hood. She says, don't stop, don't even look at those guys, they are drug dealers. Great. So here I am, ******, in a drug dealing neighborhood after 11PM, and the only reason white people go there is to buy drugs.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> LOL, I survived three years in Youngstown -- not living there, but going to school there. We had two murders on campus in one week my last year there. I kept a crowbar next to my stick shift and a pellet gun under the seat, never had to use either thank God. One night, I agreed to drive some lady home (her car was broke down), and stopped at the babysitter to pick up her kid first. Our class got out after 10PM so it was late by the time we got to the hood. She says, don't stop, don't even look at those guys, they are drug dealers. Great. So here I am, ******, in a drug dealing neighborhood after 11PM, and the only reason white people go there is to buy drugs.


 I remember those days ok its still that way. I never stopped at a redlight unless there was oncoming traffic and stpo signs were a slow down sign.you have to admit you could test gameness there for sure.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

To me, that is only stuff I saw/seen in movies, except for the one time a friend and I got lost in Sacramento.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> To me, that is only stuff I saw/seen in movies.


I've seen it in real life-- the guy who owns the property next to my family's hog hunts with dogs and he's crossed the property line a few times in pursuit of a hog. (He has permission) I'm just not impressed with it. Seems unnecessarily inefficient to me. Thought their little kevlar vests were cool though.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

codmaster said:


> I said that there is a different purpose.
> 
> The real question is should the breeders of GSD select for "Gameness" or ignore it as a temperament feature?
> 
> What do you think - do you want your dogs to possess true "Gameness"?


Not in the definition of the dogmen, absolutely NOT. That goes against everything the GSD is supposed to be. Gameness, to the "dogmen" is about fighting dog to dog -- to the DEATH -- not about the GSD's history in protection and similar work. You can't compare apples to oranges. Nor apply this definition of "game" across breeds. 



codmaster said:


> Also just sayin' How many of those dogs listed in that "yellow journalism" example of reporting were DNA tested to be true pit bulls?
> 
> I assume that you (and they) are actually referring to a single breed (APBT or Staffordshire Terrier) by "pit bull" are you not? If not then any comparisons to any other single breed would be statistically meaningless of course.
> 
> ...


Assumptions are scary things. Maybe you'd know the answers to your questions if you'd read it. 

I understand that this is what you throw out every time one of these conversations come up. 

Just sayin'. I guess.

Here's what I think:

1. "There are a lot of dogs that are called "Pit Bulls."
This is true, but is often used as a diversionary tactic when yet another Pitbull attack is reported. The following are commonly lumped into the category of "Pitbull": 
American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and mixes of those breeds.
There have been attempts to "re-name" pitbulls, in order to find more public favor, but you can't tell people an apple is actually a banana. 
So, many members of the PBC will ask you, rather snottily - _"Do you even know what a Pitbull is?"_ To make this simple, if it looks like a Pitbull, it probably has some mix of Pitbull in it, or may be purebred. The AST is also a Pitbull. The lineage is exactly the same. 
Truth be told, they all came from the same thing. Let's go into a little history here.
(Source: badrap.org) _A dog (Olde English Bulldog) that looked much like today's Pitbull was originally used in the 1800's in the British Isles to 'bait' bulls. These matches were held for the entertainment of the struggling classes; a source of relief from the tedium of hardship. In 1835 bull baiting was deemed inhumane and became illegal, and dog fighting became a popular replacement. Soon, a new bulldog was created by crossing the Olde English Bulldog with terriers to create smaller, more agile dogs. The best fighters were celebrated and held up as heroes for their courage and fortitude during battle. At the same time, bite inhibition towards humans was encouraged through selective breeding so gamblers could handle their dogs during staged fights. Partially because of these early breeding efforts which frowned on "man biters," pit bulls gained a rto the breed and provided a framework for breed standardization. Then, in the 1930's a group petitioned the Amercian Kennel Club (AKC) to allow pit bulls to be shown in the conformation ring. To separate the dog from its reputation as a pit fighter, they were given the new title 'Staffordshire Terrier' which was later changed to 'Amercian Staffordshire Terrier' to avoid confusion with the English Staffordshire Terrier._
_The American Staffordshire Terriers have been developed since that time for conformation, while the APBTs have been developed for working drive, in addition to conformation. The two styles are basically mirror images of each other, with slight differences in build and character that have started to show over the past 65 years. To make matters even more confusing, some AmStaffs are dual registered as both UKC APBTs and AKC AmStaffs, while APBTs cannot be registered with both organizations. Depending on who you talk to, AmStaffs and APBTs can be the exact same breed, or completely separate breeds._
_In 1909, Guy McCord founded an organization titled ADBA (American Dog Breeders Association). This was created exclusively for APBTs and continues to be the lead registry for this breed. In 1976, the ADBA outlined its own breed standard, or, Basis of Conformation. In 1990, a new registry called ABKC was formed to promote 'American Bully' dogs - a new breeding style of thick, bulldoggy looking dogs that are said to have English Bulldog in their background as well as other breeds._
(Source: dogsbite.org) _In 1935, the American Kennel Club (AKC) agreed to register Pitbull dogs, but only under the name Staffordshire Terrier. This was done to distance the breed from its continued use in dogfighting. Thus, the Pitbull and the Staffordshire Terrier was one in the same, yet held two different names._
_In 1972, the AKC renamed the breed to the American Staffordshire Terrier. Though the American Staffordshire Terrier is by definition a Pitbull, many owners claim they are different breeds and shelters adopt out Pitbulls under the Staffordshire name. _
_AmStaff or APBT? AKC? UKC? ADBA or ABKC? So many registries, so many ways to label a "Pitbull!"_
_"American Staffordshire Terrier" is not a polite new name for Pitbull, although it's often misapplied by people who dislike the term 'pitbull.' Understanding the jumbled history of the breed names helps to clear up some of this confusion and mislabeling._
_Before the end of the 1800's, the dogs we think of as 'Pitbulls' were typically called bulldogs - a name that's still used by many breed enthusiasts. In 1898, Chauncy Z. Bennet founded the United Kennel Club (UKC) and re-named the bulldogs 'American Pit Bull Terriers'. This move gave legitimacy with their reputation for their trustworthy nature with humans._
Let's take this further. 
A Pitbull can be a multitude of things -- either a purebred dog or a mixture of others that likely share the same traits and often, similar physical attributes, which adds to the confusion. But let's look at FUNCTION. Every dog fits into a general group, whether it is herding, retrieving, pulling, pointing, racing, guarding, tracking etc. In the case of Pitbulls, that function is, in part at least, tenacious hold and fighting to the death. Gripping dogs were bred for fighting and baiting. Gripping dogs were bred to refuse to quit. 
Such dogs could be of many breeds: APBT, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the original Boston Bulldog, Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, Presa Canario, Cane Corso.
All the afforementioned breeds are/were bred to be fighting/guard dogs. You'll find all kinds of breed mixes between these dogs. They will have very similar physical characteristics as well. Just because a dog may not be a purebred Pitbull means nothing. It may have been bred with one of the above that manifest the same, or at least similar, disposition and physical traits or a scary combination.​


vom Eisenherz said:


> As to the nanny dog myth thing...that's a joke, right?


Yes. Joke. Funny, sad joke. The truth is, the human aggressive pits were culled out. The ones that showed true game and no human aggression were bred. In that vein, such dogs were extremely trustworthy with humans. My question to you is, *is this great care still being taken?* Now in a world of no dogfighting? (well, legally, anyway.) How to truly test the gameness of a dog and the human aggression of a dog without the fight ring?



Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> I believe the Pitbull can be a pet. I have GSDs they are pet quality . If your a breeder are not some dogs not good enough to show AKC ,schutzhund or SAR ? Many sell those dogs as pets w/ the stipulation they must be neutered. The family gets a healthy pet and the breed hopefully another great ambassador. Speaking of nanny dog ,the GSDs founder believed and stated the GSD should love children.I realize based on your link there may be some doubt to the Pits nanny staus. I would also suggest that you take a look at Bad Rap and Best friends work w/ the Vick dogs a number of them are in forever homes w/ knowledgable owners and have been quite sucessful. Several I believe have passed their CGC test.


Passing the CGC means almost nothing. A well bred Pit is supposed to be very human friendly. As referenced above, the ones that showed human aggressive tendencies in the fight ring were culled. This did end up with a breed that was, at least when properly culled, very human loyal and friendly. The CGC doesn't do anything regarding dog to dog, other than a friendly walk by. Even a dog aggressive pit could pass this portion. _(Test 8: Reaction to another dog This test demonstrates that the dog can behave politely around other dogs. Two handlers and their dogs approach each other from a distance of about 20 feet, stop, shake hands and exchange pleasantries, and continue on for about 10 feet. The dogs should show no more than casual interest in each other. Neither dog should go to the other dog or its handler.)_



vom Eisenherz said:


> D&L's mom, I don't want to nitpick, because I agree with you, mostly, but the AKC doesn't recognize the APBT, therefore, it was and AKC breeder, they were AmStaffs.
> 
> Isn't it amazing that the dog that was the symbol of our country's military is not even recognized by the AKC?


I'd be interested in proof of the pitbull being the symbol of our country's military. As you know, the AKC did not want to be associated with dogfighting, so they renamed it to the Amstaff and focused on show and conformation.



vom Eisenherz said:


> ADBA recognizes Pits- that's where the gamedogs are going to be registered, primarily. UKC is registering mostly the "Am Bully" type lately, though there are some exceptions. That may be what you're thinking of. I'm going to start showing mine at ADBA shows and maybe do some weight pull. Or wait, is that cruel to force them to drag heavy stuff?


ADBA was created for pitbulls.

_In 1909, Guy McCord founded an organization titled ADBA (American Dog Breeders Association). This was created exclusively for APBTs and continues to be the lead registry for this breed. In 1976, the ADBA outlined its own breed standard, or, Basis of Conformation. In 1990, a new registry called ABKC was formed to promote 'American Bully' dogs - a new breeding style of thick, bulldoggy looking dogs that are said to have English Bulldog in their background as well as other breeds._


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

American Dog Breeders Association


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> So codmaster, what would you consider an adequate "gameness" test for the GSD.
> Please don't tell me schutzhund.


Ok, I won't say Sch, at least as it seems to be done today esp. 

Although of course it appears that this was the test that was envisioned by the the breeds founder - Max S.

Don't know that there is one single test for it. My current dog had his already.

Might need a different test for dogs destined for different jobs perhaps - interesting question!

What do *you* think would be a "suitable" gameness test?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> I don't really see any true, fair comparisons between the proper tests for the correct temperament of GSDs and APBTs, personally. Very different dogs. Different purposes, and both equally respectable and valuable. I will always own both, though I may retire to just Pits...so much easier. :wub:


 Different tests yes - BUT the same idea of such a test.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Chelle, I would be more interested in what you know or even think through your own experience than what you quickly google in order to post something. 

Sgt. Stubby was a mascot. Look him up. The only point was that he was something of an underground hero, lots of morale and artwork inspired by him, and now the APBT isn't even recognized by the AKC. I mean, that's good, really; I can't freaking stand the AKC. LOL 

Again, you misunderstand gameness and the means with which to test. Game and dead game are not one and the same. I made a rhyme!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't even like the word "Gameness"


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> Not in the definition of the dogmen, absolutely NOT. That goes against everything the GSD is supposed to be. Gameness, to the "dogmen" is about fighting dog to dog -- to the DEATH -- not about the GSD's history in protection and similar work. You can't compare apples to oranges. Nor apply this definition of "game" across breeds.
> 
> *Heh! Just so you know - "Gameness" = Never quit even if severly injured! It is separate from wanting to dog fight! But you believe whatever you like!*
> 
> ...


 
chelle - please read carefully and forget any breed bias as we are not really talking about the dreaded pit bull (whatever canine "breed" you think they are.

We are trying to determine something about the quality of "gameness" and esp. if you would want your GSD to have it?

Here is a description I got from an actual pit bull site - see if you understand what it means and then decide if you would like your GSD to also possess it, ok?

*Read this to believe and understand!*

*Gameness* - The exact definition of "gameness" varies greatly depending upon whom you ask. However, most true pit bull fanciers can agree that this is the single most important trait the APBT possesses, *and without gameness, the dog is just a shell of what it should be.* In the most general sense of the term, gameness can be described as *"an unwillingness to give up, even under the most difficult of circumstances and despite the threat of injury or death."* 

*From what you went on about above, are we to believe that you do not want your GSD's to have this temperament trait of "gameness"? *


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I don't even like the word "Gameness"


 
Courage? Never give up?

Or is it better to have a shy GSD - one who will cut and run for itself when the owner or itself is threatened?

A no brainer to me!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Courage? Never give up?
> 
> Or is it better to have a shy GSD - one who will cut and run for itself when the owner or itself is threatened?
> 
> A no brainer to me!


That has absolutely NOTHING to do with me not liking the word gameness and I won't ever use that word in correlation with the German Shepherd! 

If the Pit Bull people want to own that word, let them have it! I don't want to be associated with it.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are many things people do with their dogs others disagree with.


----------



## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

How...in the world..has this entire conversation strayed, yet again, to be something of a pit bull advocates vs non-pit bull advocates?

I know it isn't directly JUST that, but...come on. Seriously? I am so frustrated with seeing so many of these threads lately. I know we all have our differences, different beliefs, different morals, different backgrounds, different histories, different views of the world - but seriously. I'm sick of seeing threads that turn into battles over the bully breeds.

.....but please......don't let me stop you. I just know this will be quoted by someone to make me look like a complete imbecile.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Chelle, I would be more interested in what you know or even think through your own experience than what you quickly google in order to post something.
> 
> Sgt. Stubby was a mascot. Look him up. The only point was that he was something of an underground hero, lots of morale and artwork inspired by him, and now the APBT isn't even recognized by the AKC. I mean, that's good, really; I can't freaking stand the AKC. LOL
> 
> Again, you misunderstand gameness and the means with which to test. Game and dead game are not one and the same. I made a rhyme!


Oh, I didn't "quickly" google anything. I spent a lot, a lot, a lot of time reading and researching. I was very interested in the history, the theories, the "dogmen." 

I have an excellent understanding of "game," "gameness," and "gametesting." 



codmaster said:


> chelle - please read carefully and forget any breed bias as we are not really talking about the dreaded pit bull (whatever canine "breed" you think they are.
> 
> We are trying to determine something about the quality of "gameness" and esp. if you would want your GSD to have it?
> 
> ...


Codmaster, you are all over the map. Your thoughts are rather rambling and don't tie together.

The definition of gameness you state above is the exact definition from the website I quoted. Preach to the choir, much?

The pitbull fancier's "gameness" is applicable to dog-on-dog fighting. A GSD's "definition" of "gameness" would be different, as it is not about dog on dog, it is about the GSD's tenacity to get the bad guy, just to oversimplify. 

I have never heard the term "game" in reference to a GSD. Maybe I'm just too sheltered, but still, never heard that used. It is referred to very frequently by pitbull owners. It has been used by dogmen for a great many years.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm far more worried about the people indiscriminately breeding pitbulls for the pet market. Breeds that are not tested, no matter how "cruel" some may feel the test is, end up in the gutter. Breeding for the pet market destroys breeds. I'd rather them be bred to hunt hogs than bred to be pets ----------------

I would agree with this . When they are bred to hunt hogs and tested there is some critical evaluation and what is not right is dealt with . The good ones are very good . The decoy that I hire to aggress my dogs is a decoy for American Street Ring and the majority of dogs that he decoys for are the bully breeds . 

Gameness - would you not say that tenacity , and tenacity are what is being asked for . Is that not what the wurtemberger dogs brought to the von Stephanitz gsd . Slow to ignite , power, active aggression, determined to defeat the opponent .


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I would agree with this . When they are bred to hunt hogs and tested there is some critical evaluation and what is not right is dealt with


Oh the Irony... from one ring into another. Yeah, they are dealt with. Killed right there and then, because "they don't have game" with the same brutality they had to endure in the past... :thumbsdown::headbang:


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is game for you -- a dog of mine "TomBrown" with the RCMP, cut and slashed in a takedown , kept the fight , arrest made , dog rushed in to surgery where he succumbed from blood loss -- his sister Tetley was a foundation dog for me .
Her son Keno, who opens my web page , in the line of police service, hit by a car while in pursuit , continues, in spite of injuries and captures the criminal -- he is fine after a bit of a stitchup -- but he had the tenacity to continue - happier ending for this boy -- Purina Hall of Fame award -- another took a bullet in a northern Ontario prison break escapee round up - 3 man ambush , held his position and saved his officer who was also hit -- mentioned in an award ceremony , same Purina Hall of Fame. Dogs related .
to send in anything less , would be to supply faulty equipment --- 
all dogs were loving family dogs , that worked their full 10 years plus , lived with babes in the home and retired and lived out their lives till 13 plus , in the home , in the community , with young kids in the house , as normal dogs.

Carmen


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

until very recently dogs that could not contribute were either put down or denied care , and had to become wild to fend for themselves. Pets are a luxury . That is how things were . Things were equally harsh for the people .


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> until very recently dogs that could not contribute were either put down or denied care , and had to become wild to fend for themselves. Pets are a luxury . That is how things were . Things were equally harsh for the people .


Like I said before. I have no issues putting a dog to sleep as long as it's done humanely. Having them die during a fight because somebody wants to test if they have game is disgusting. 

Do you test your dogs on hogs and bears to see if they've got game? I don't care what everybody else says. There are other ways to get a dog to go beyond his threshold and boundaries.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K - they are tested before they go into service. Any dog that presents a doubt as to ability to carry out a fight without heading in to avoidance is not recommended , not fair to the dog to expect him to be something that he is naturally not, nor is it right to hand over a dog that can not be relied on.
Do they get tested on bears -- well let's see , not deliberately , but here is something that can be verified, the dam of the RCMP dog TomBrown and grand dam of Keno , Carmspack Ambergris -- did hold off a sow (bear) and her cubs when the owner Ruth Yeulett and her young children arrived home -- and in the path to the house this bear appeared . The dog without caution rushed and drove off the bear while Ruth high tailed it to the house. After we had a discussion because it could have gone bad - the bear did have cubs and the dog could have annoyed it -- fortunately the bear did scoot. This is in Kelowna BC . I was told that sometimes the bear would enter the house !!! yikes .
Hogs, Carmspack Angie -- who lived to almost 16 years , lived on an "organic" farm in the Flamborough area . One of her chores was to load the big hogs onto the truck for market . Pigs are hard to move . Angie was a Kilo daughter --- she also flew frequently on Lufthansa escorting prize dressage horses back and forth from european events . Even when there was air turbulence she was so calm the horses were calmed. So how is that .

Carmen


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

gypsyrose said:


> but its the training methods that turns me away from it.


How do they train the dogs to hog hunt?




gypsyrose said:


> Today people buy an old bore hog pin him up and throw the dogs in with him thats how they train and check for that so called gaminess.


What does "pin him up" mean?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Mrs K - they are tested before they go into service. Any dog that presents a doubt as to ability to carry out a fight without heading in to avoidance is not recommended , not fair to the dog to expect him to be something that he is naturally not, nor is it right to hand over a dog that can not be relied on.
> Do they get tested on bears -- well let's see , not deliberately , but here is something that can be verified, the dam of the RCMP dog TomBrown and grand dam of Keno , Carmspack Ambergris -- did hold off a sow (bear) and her cubs when the owner Ruth Yeulett and her young children arrived home -- and in the path to the house this bear appeared . The dog without caution rushed and drove off the bear while Ruth high tailed it to the house. After we had a discussion because it could have gone bad - the bear did have cubs and the dog could have annoyed it -- fortunately the bear did scoot. This is in Kelowna BC . I was told that sometimes the bear would enter the house !!! yikes .
> Hogs, Carmspack Angie -- who lived to almost 16 years , lived on an "organic" farm in the Flamborough area . One of her chores was to load the big hogs onto the truck for market . Pigs are hard to move . Angie was a Kilo daughter --- she also flew frequently on Lufthansa escorting prize dressage horses back and forth from european events . Even when there was air turbulence she was so calm the horses were calmed. So how is that .
> 
> Carmen


That is nowhere near comparable to what that guy from the other Forum is doing with his dogs... 

Would you, personally send your dogs into a fight with a hog on purpose to test if they've got it?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> That has absolutely NOTHING to do with me not liking the word gameness and I won't ever use that word in correlation with the German Shepherd!
> 
> If the Pit Bull people want to own that word, let them have it! I don't want to be associated with it.


What is in a name (or word)?


So *do you think a GSD should be courageous*, then? And if it has to fight to fight to it's last breath defending itself and/or it's family? 

Or are you like some folks who wouldn't want their GSD to act like that, and maybe never should fight - that they, the owner, will defend their dog instead?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> What is in a name (or word)?
> 
> 
> So *do you think a GSD should be courageous*, then? And if it has to fight to fight to it's last breath defending itself and/or it's family?
> ...


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

carmspack said:


> here is game for you -- a dog of mine "TomBrown" with the RCMP, cut and slashed in a takedown , kept the fight , arrest made , dog rushed in to surgery where he succumbed from blood loss -- his sister Tetley was a foundation dog for me .
> Her son Keno, who opens my web page , in the line of police service, hit by a car while in pursuit , continues, in spite of injuries and captures the criminal -- he is fine after a bit of a stitchup -- but he had the tenacity to continue - happier ending for this boy -- Purina Hall of Fame award -- another took a bullet in a northern Ontario prison break escapee round up - 3 man ambush , held his position and saved his officer who was also hit -- mentioned in an award ceremony , same Purina Hall of Fame. Dogs related .
> to send in anything less , would be to supply faulty equipment ---
> all dogs were loving family dogs , that worked their full 10 years plus , lived with babes in the home and retired and lived out their lives till 13 plus , in the home , in the community , with young kids in the house , as normal dogs.
> ...


Great display of true "Gameness"!


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


>


 
Very clear answer! And your opinion of the GSD temperament.

Thanks!


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Never mind, just answered my own questions.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The "cruelty" of asking a dog to chase and kill vermin (And wild hogs are dangerous dangerous animals who destroy property) and possibly loose its life in the fight is something I could not do- BUT -

What is the more cruel life for a dog. Hunting for prey then dying a death in a fight with game or laying around for 8 hours a day so that maybe, just maybe they can get 30 minutes to an hour or two of time with their owners going for a walk or chasing a ball, then be asked to sleep all night?

I feel bad for the hogs. They are highly intellegent animals but the damage they do and the risk they pose is phenomenal. But even for them? How do we know? Factory farm vs wild-life and killed by a predator or a gun or knife?


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I gotta tell you I don't understand hog hunting with dogs. I've hog hunted since I was a young teen and never had a problem killing them with a rifle off a 4-wheeler or out of a stand, but that's just me.


It really depends on where you live doesn't it? Where we hunted feral pigs on my parents property was in the mountains. Some of the terrain you wouldn't put a horse up so hunting without dogs was impossible.
Out on the plains they don't use dogs as they can just shoot them off the back of a ute.......just depends on where you are hunting I guess.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Can't believe this is still going on. 

Mrs. K, why not just drop it? You don't like Pit Bulls, you don't think they should be bred for what their intended purpose was, and dislike the word "gameness." Why not just chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and move on? Done properly, selection is no more cruel than natural selection, possibly far less cruel. Nature is not always kind. 

Carmen, spot on with every post. 

Chelle, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Honestly, the only thing that bothers me about you is that rather than admit you are very ignorant of the topics, and keep an open mind toward learning something, you think you're educated and profess to be, which is frightening because the information you're passing onto others via the www is scarily slanted and just plain nuts. You cannot (well, you can, I guess, but it sure seems nutty) cite a website as "proof" or "references" of anything without checking the credibility of the site. ANYONE can put up a site and say anything they want. Does that make it true? You claim you've done lots of research- where?? If your best source is a site where the author things an Argentine Dogo is a Pit Bull, methinks it may be time to go back to the drawing board. :smirk:

I am going to try to refrain from further arguments because you cannot open a closed mind, and I think my time and info (garnered through over 20 years of research and experience with real live American Pit Bull Terriers on leashes in my own hands) would be better spent educating those who do not profess to know it all and who are interested in learning the truth on such matters. 

Selzer, you don't like Pits, but I think I can forgive you. We'll get along ok. 

Speaking of Pit Bulls, my [email protected]$$ Momma's boy is whining like a poodle for my attention. Off to play in the snow!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Mrs. K, why not just drop it? You don't like Pit Bulls, you don't think they should be bred for what their intended purpose was, and dislike the word "gameness." Why not just chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and move on? Done properly, selection is no more cruel than natural selection, possibly far less cruel. Nature is not always kind.


What a way to twist my words. I never said that I don't like Pit Bulls. I don't like that they are being fought against another living being to test "game". There is a reason why dog fighting is illegal and that is because it's despicable and brutal. Sending them out to kill hogs to test their gameness because dog fighting itself is illegal and doing it for the same reason is despicable is morally and ethically wrong. 

And yeah, because getting killed while fighting a hog is not cruel, brutal and gruesome at all... it's just natural selection... 

Makes me sick to my stomach!


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Sending them out to kill hogs to test their gameness because dog fighting itself is illegal and doing it for the same reason is despicable is morally and ethically wrong.


So you are against hunting, then? Because that's what these people are doing; the game test is incidental to the hunt.


----------



## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I haven't read through this whole thread (almost 20 pages!!!), short on time. However, I just wanted to add, here in central FL we have a HUGE problem with wild boars. They ruin property and our wetlands (which then ruins our ecosystem), kill farm animals, and have been known to kill people. Hunting them is completely legal, and using dogs is legal as well. Many in this area do it.

My brother does have a pit bull that is a "catch dog" and is always paired with 3 other pits. My brother's hunt deer, turkey, and boar. The dogs are only used for boar. They also have friend's who use hounds as well and they are "bay dogs". My brother's dog does wear a vest and is certainly taken care of as part of the family.

He's a hunting dog. Nothing illegal about that, and he's certainly not a bad owner and the dog isn't a bad/aggressive dog. The boars are not supposed to be here and they cause a LOT of issues. If people didn't hunt them, we'd have an even bigger problem. Bandit, the pit bull, doesn't kill the boar. He and the other dogs just hold the boar there until someone can get over there and shoot them.

I do not hunt, I can't kill anything and I'd be an emotional wreck if I did.. However, I am not against it. In some cases it really needs to happen.... wild boars are one of those cases. My brother's dog is treated well and everything revolves around HIS safety. He loves what he does and to him it's a game! Just like our dog's sports are to them.

Now, if you mean putting a dog and a wild animal in a pen and letting them go at it.... that's wrong and I am not sure how legal that is. I'm sure that may fall under some sort of law with animal fighting... wild or not.


Also.... as a side note.... It isn't just in the "backwoods" anymore. Back a few years ago we had some pigs show up close to towns. My brother's and Bandit helped the police track down a HUGE Boar running down a street by my mother's house. She lives in the suburbs 15min from the city. When their population grows, they make their way out of the "backwoods" and end up in our towns.... this is how people get killed.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I think there are 2 seperate issues here....

IF I am reading correctly, Mrs. K is talking about Hog BAITING...where the DOG kills the hog not a hunter. 

Whereas the majority here are talking about Hog Hunting where the Hunter kills the Hog after the dog catches and HOLDS it! 

The 2nd issue is that a lot of people here have no idea of the history of the APBT and have little to no interaction with them. There are distinct differences in the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier, both which can be traced back to the same stud book because they were one in the SAME many years ago. AKC changed the name to be more "friendly" and to remove the word PIT. UKC is the original registry for APBTs and was created for THEM. That standard is the oldest standard written for the APBT not the ADBA standard as some "game" dog people like to think. 

I love the old lines of this breed, their tenacity and loyalty and willingness to do whatever is thrown at them. I however, am not lost in the past, complaining about how there is no breed test anymore that is legal etc. etc. etc. 

Get over it. Some people like APBTs, some people don't. Some people like GSDs, some people don't! I don't agree with the baiting of animals as it is an old outdated "sport" that should be in history. I fully support hunting with dogs though.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I can't believe that so many on here seem to condone dog fighting... wow.. I'm seriously shocked.


I don't know, maybe I've missed something, but I haven't seen anyone who condones dog fighting?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

arycrest said:


> I don't know, maybe I've missed something, but I haven't seen anyone who condones dog fighting?



Maybe we just don't talk about the same thing. 

I have no issue with hunting at all. I have no issue with culling. As long as it's done humane. If it's done like TrickyShepherds brother... that's okay. They hold on to the pig and then it's killed quickly.

The sentiment that upsets me is that dog fighting itself is illegal. But hey, there is a legal way. Send them out, let them fight pigs, if they die, they would have died in the Pit as well. 

With that kind of thinking, you might as well legalize dog fighting again. It's the same sentiment. And that's what I don't like. There is NOTHING won. The literally go from fighting each other to fighting a species. It's still brutal, nasty, disgusting and despicable. There has absolutely NOTHING changed at all. 

If it was done because of the hog problem... more power to them, but it's not. It's because dog fighting is illegal and they are trying to stay within the legal means. If a dog is killed, who cares. They were hunting hogs, not illegal at all and hey, they even help society with a problem. 

All you do is give them a legal way to entertain themselves... and they are even applauded for it. That makes me sick. 

I have nothing against hunting but where I'm from there are ethics involved with hunting. You don't make them suffer. You kill them as quickly as possible and then you honor them that they have laid their life down so you can live.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Mrs. K. do you mean specifically in the case where dog is put in an enclosed pen for the purpose of fighting another animal, in this case a hog?

Or are you objecting to testing 'gameness' during an actual hunt in the field?

Or both?

I agree with the others that's where this get confusing...

(edit O.K. read your response above posted about the same time pretty much answers this...)


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Who cares... apparently these people are heroes for helping society to get rid of a problem.... 

I shall never bring this topic up again. Disgusting...


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've rather refrained from this topic until now.

IF one wants to use dogs for hunting that's fine and dandy, what I object to, is encouraging a dog to get in there and rip apart some animal (even hogs).. OR if the dog DOESN"T decide to jump in there and rip apart some animal, well shoot it cause the dogs no darn good, guess it' isn't "gamey" enough.

If one enjoys watching a dog rip apart some animal or ANY animal rip apart another, I would think that person is missing a few screws. Not my type of enjoyment and frankly I do find it disgusting when one would encourage such a thing. 

With that, if I see this thread going down the tubes further, well I'll close it and that will be the end of it

So PLAY nice or don't play at all


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> The sentiment that upsets me is that dog fighting itself is illegal. But hey, there is a legal way. *Send them out, let them fight pigs*, if they die, they would have died in the Pit as well.


A dog that is sent out to hunt pigs CAN'T be dog aggressive. They hunt together as a team. So I wouldn't think that would be a good way to test if they'd die in 'the Pit'. 

In real life, there can be accidents. A hunter jumper can hit a rail, fall and break the rider's neck and/or injure the horse. The idea is to keep everyone safe. 

The side you are upset about are the folks who use their dogs to fight pigs - NOT hunt them. There is a seperation between *HUNTING* and *FIGHTING*.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The OP was not about hunting.
The dogs could be Cocker Spaniel or Toy Poodles instead of Pit Bulls.
It is not about killing overpopulated wild hogs.
It is not about disliking Pit Bulls or mixes.

It is about whether it is o.k. to risk serious injury or death to a dog just for the sole purpose of testing its gameness. That is what is bothers people.

It is the same as If you threw a Shih Tzu in with a Mountain Lion for the sole purpose of testing its gameness or its ability to keep on regardless of what is happening to it.

Watching your dog be injured, maimed or killed for no real purpose. 
That is what the thread is about.

The guys on the thread Mrs.K cited are not hunters. They are testing their dogs by fighting hogs etc... The only thing hunting has to do with it is it's the vehicle by which they find animals to test their dogs against.

The only thing APBTs or mixes have to do with it is the information came from one of their forums.

If the info. had come from an Akita forum maybe people would understand better.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> If it was done because of the hog problem... more power to them, but it's not. It's because dog fighting is illegal and they are trying to stay within the legal means. If a dog is killed, who cares. They were hunting hogs, not illegal at all and hey, they even help society with a problem.


But it IS done because of the hog problem. It gives the ABPT an outlet for their talents and, as you said, helps society with a problem. And yes, it is a test of sorts, just as SchH is a test. Without testing working ability, what do you have? 

Yes, catch dogs are sometimes killed by boars. Sometimes police dogs are killed by criminals. Are you going to argue that using dogs for criminal apprehension is also cruel?



> I have nothing against hunting but where I'm from there are ethics involved with hunting. You don't make them suffer. You kill them as quickly as possible and then you honor them that they have laid their life down so you can live.


There's more than one way to skin a cat, pardon the saying. In a wide open plain, you can simply shoot hogs from a truck. In thick, dense cover you can't see the hogs, and that's when you need the dogs to help locate, bay, and catch. It seems brutal and cruel to chase down an animal and set dogs on it, but really no more so than nature itself--you've watched Wild Kingdom, lions attacking wildebeest on the savannah, tearing it apart while still alive. Of course you can argue that we as human beings should know better than to be cruel, but the fact remains that feral hogs are NOT native to this country, they are a problem, and in some places the only way to hunt them is with dogs.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> It is about whether it is o.k. to risk serious injury or death to a dog just for the sole purpose of testing its gameness. That is what is bothers people.


But it is not the SOLE purpose. The purpose is ridding the area of a dangerous and damaging non-native animal. The gameness test is incidental to the hunt; I don't know of any hog hunters who make their dogs fight penned hogs for sport, unless they are training young pups. I am sure people have done it, but it's not what the vast majority of hog hunters are doing.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> The OP was not about hunting.
> The dogs could be Cocker Spaniel or Toy Poodles instead of Pit Bulls.
> It is not about killing overpopulated wild hogs.
> It is not about disliking Pit Bulls or mixes.
> ...


Thanks again, Jacks Dad :thumbup:


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Freestep said:


> But it is not the SOLE purpose. The purpose is ridding the area of a dangerous and damaging non-native animal. The gameness test is incidental to the hunt; I don't know of any hog hunters who make their dogs fight penned hogs for sport, unless they are training young pups. I am sure people have done it, but it's not what the vast majority of hog hunters are doing.


NO IT'S NOT!

Get rid of that idea. These are NOT Hog Hunters! That's the point all along. Jack has read the link. You didn't. You guys are so hung up on the hunting that you don't get what I'm talking about at all. 

These people are fighting their dogs with hogs just like they would fight their dogs in a pit to test the true gameness. It's not in a pit, it's out in the woods under the cover of "Hunting hogs" so it's legal. 

That has NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with Hog Hunting.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> But it is not the SOLE purpose. The purpose is ridding the area of a dangerous and damaging non-native animal. The gameness test is incidental to the hunt; I don't know of any hog hunters who make their dogs fight penned hogs for sport, unless they are training young pups. I am sure people have done it, but it's not what the vast majority of hog hunters are doing.


Did you read the link she provided. For those individuals it was the sole purpose. It had *nothing* to do with hunting hogs.

There are probably lots of people who use these dogs for hunting and killing hogs. Not the people she referred to on that section of that forum.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

MRS. K Unfortunately you misunderstand hog hunting with dogs. The dogs used are of many breeds and these dogs are called CATCH dogs. These dogs are used to "catch" the boar not kill. Yes they use their teeth to grab hold of the hog preferably on an ear or the snout, out of harms way, and wear him out. (Because it can be dangerous for a 50-100LBS dog to go up against a boar with tusks that out weigh them 4 to 6 times.) That way the hog can be brought out by the dog where the handlers can get a rope on the hog. Hogs weigh hundreds of pounds and are butchered for the meat. So these hunters aren't going to want dogs doing the amount of damage that it would take to actually kill a wild boar 300lbs. and ruin the meat. And yes with everything it has been turned into a sport as such. Although the hogs are not killed by the dogs. They are timed as to how long it takes for them to get control of the hog so it can be roped...NOT KILLED. There are actual videos of hunts and competitions out there for purchase that show what really happens. 

From the way you describe it you seem to have in mind what used to be called animal baiting which would be illegal in any state. Unfortunately you are trying to understand something that you have never seen. Much the same as those who are against bitework sports (IPO, Ring) because of what they heard or they THINK they know about it. You can't go by the writings of some folks who want to brag about their dogs accomplishments. Ever heard of BREEDER EMBELLISHMENT!!!!!!!! to make their dogs seem better, tougher.......LOL. 


The vast majority of people on boards like this one are people who have never needed a dog for more than something to pet. Nor have they ever had to do more than go to the corner store to get something for dinner. I wonder how many people would die, due to lack of know-how) if there were no more grocery stores and they had to actually hunt and/or butcher their own meat for the table?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Did you read the link she provided. For those individuals it was the sole purpose. It had *nothing* to do with hunting hogs.
> 
> There are probably lots of people who use these dogs for hunting and killing hogs. Not the people she referred to on that section of that forum.


They didn't.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You said earlier who cares but you are the one who asked if it is legal.

When it comes to matters of legality 'who cares' does not apply. 

Whether the intent to hunt *(in the field*) is for testing gameness of the hunting dogs or to purely to kill wild hogs matters not, legally.

You are free to object to the intent of the dog owners, which you have clearly done so.

For all practical purposes this is about cultural mores (as you made earlier references to 'where you come from'). 

While I agree with you in principle - as in practice hogs could be eliminated simply by trapping them in baited capture pens and humanely, quickly killed...

Legally speaking it's allowed and culturally unlikely to change. 




Mrs.K said:


> NO IT'S NOT!
> 
> Get rid of that idea. These are NOT Hog Hunters! That's the point all along. Jack has read the link. You didn't. You guys are so hung up on the hunting that you don't get what I'm talking about at all.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> They didn't.


And they are not going to. Too much trouble I guess.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Killing the hog with a dog is not what is supposed to happen. To claim it's all bad because some people may allow this to happen is akin to BANNING ALL GUNS because SOME people use guns to kill. Although the majority of gun owners have and never will shoot anyone.

Or ban NASCAR because some drivers crash and die trying to see who's the fastest. 

Let's ban ALL drugs so no one becomes addicted and no one will be robbed so the addict can buy more...... Never mind the good the drugs can do in doctors hands.......

Or ban IPO, Ringsport, Mals and the GSD because some poor-excuse for an owner will let their dogs bite someone inappropriately.

Face it folks, no matter what it is out there. There will always be someone who will use it for wrong, even illegal purposes.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ramgsd said:


> Killing the hog with a dog is not what is supposed to happen. To claim it's all bad because some people may allow this to happen is akin to BANNING ALL GUNS because SOME people use guns to kill. Although the majority of gun owners have and never will shoot anyone.


That is my point all along. I have NO issue whatsoever with hog hunting, if it's done correctly and in a fast, humane manner.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

If you want a past-time that no one can corrupt into something wrong or illegal.......I think you better try NEEDLE-POINT. Doesn't make it right...that's just how it is.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ramgsd said:


> If you want a past-time that no one can corrupt into something wrong or illegal.......I think you better try NEEDLE-POINT. Doesn't make it right...that's just how it is.


Needle point is dangerous. You could take someone's eye out..and if you did it on purpose, it would be wrong and illegal.


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I get what you're saying Mrs. K. I read the link and I found it a little disturbing. I honestly don't know how you would test it any other way, but there has to be a more humane way than they way they are doing it. I don't mind people hunting with dogs, but that's not what was happening.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

So I guess there's nothing to do but BAN EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!




Jax08 said:


> Needle point is dangerous. You could take someone's eye out..and if you did it on purpose, it would be wrong and illegal.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

ramgsd said:


> Killing the hog with a dog is not what is supposed to happen. To claim it's all bad because some people may allow this to happen is akin to BANNING ALL GUNS because SOME people use guns to kill. Although the majority of gun owners have and never will shoot anyone.
> 
> Or ban NASCAR because some drivers crash and die trying to see who's the fastest.
> 
> ...



What you posted has nothing to do with this. Just because **** happens legal or not doesn't make it right. This is a forum where one can post their opinion and people can take it or leave it.

At least the thread had something to do with the welfare of dogs.

That's a whole lot more than I can say about a lot of the threads on here. 

Will this thread change society and make everone nice and thoughtful and kind. Of course not. It may cause some people to think about what we do to animals for our own satisfaction. That does not imply that people will agree. Just food for thought.

Go to Active Topics and see some of the fluff threads that might be fun for some but have sometimes nothing to do with dogs at all. I'm not saying they are bad but at least there was some substance to animal welfare in this thread.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dogs aren't streamed to fight hogs because it is not , nor should be , socially acceptable , to fight each other or poor victim dogs who don't stand a chance.

these are activities that the dog was originally bred for . Being respectful to the essence of the dog , as a breeding structure, brings reliability or predictability of character. When you start fooling around and taking away or adding (exaggerating) that is when you don't know what you have.
These dogs were the butchers dogs before cattle were moved by van to some mechanized conveyor belt of slaughter . Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup
It is a fact that the world is full of menial and unpleasant jobs that someone has to do , provide a most valuable service , for the rest of us . Those dirty jobs attracted a class of people getting by on their wits and by the skin of their teeth, as it were . 
You know , wandering shepherds would be included in this riff raff . The work was dull and ardurous and dirty and competitive . Half the time they were probably on guard against theft or harm from each other , not just the thieves and wild predators of the night. That the early , landrace dogs were superior in this working environment was critical to personal safety and livelihood. You work or you don't. 
The world was harsh - but it created exacting standards , close to nature's own , just catering to our benefit.
I truly believe that we as a species did exceptionally well because of our alignment with other species , dogs in particular . 
I don't care for pit bulls out there , but I would respect and consider one that was correctly bred for the job . 
That is the quality control.

From this base other 'bully' breeds developed . If you want to talk about cruelty I think the deliberate disfigurement for "amusement - cosmetics" of the skull, particular muzzle deformity is something to address.
Pugs with nostrils smack between the eyes. Exaggerated skin folds, maloclusion of jaws , the downward slope of the english bull terrier , the pug, the english bull, all of them - useless , cruel. Yet we giggle and exploit them for commercial gain and continue to produce more deformed animals .

there you go
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yikes - everytime I read about Florida I think I am too wimpy to live there !! hogs and gators and hurricanes and boa constrictors and flying **** roaches and fleas and spiders -- mommy


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> These people are fighting their dogs with hogs just like they would fight their dogs in a pit to test the true gameness. It's not in a pit, it's out in the woods under the cover of "Hunting hogs" so it's legal.


Well, that would be baiting, and that is actually illegal. Most hog hunters do NOT do this--why risk a good dog if you don't have to? And no, I didn't read the link, but if you are talking about people pitting their dogs against captive hogs just to watch them fight, that's a totally different segment of ABPT owners and it doesn't reflect on hog hunters.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I just went to the link. That was incredibly disturbing ,some posts were the kevlar vest type but a majority were dog kills to prove gameness. The one post questioned the laws banning dog fighting. Yeah cant wait for him to sell a dog to the idiot dealer down the street from me or you and I wish our respective police officers luck dealing w/ it. Here lies part of the problem those dogs will end up in the hands of someone who isnt in the deep woods and then someone's lovable bully breed who hasnt done anything gets euthanized due to BSL. Sorry Mrs. K I didnt go far enough back to the right link and I see your point. The reason I think this so angers me I had a young client 14 bragging about how they got a 6 week old Pit that is going to be trained to protect. After reading those posts on that forum and thinking about the stupidity of people and the desire to breed dogs to fight dogs Im a little sick . Im soft and I like dogs more then humans alot of days.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> The OP was not about hunting.
> The dogs could be Cocker Spaniel or Toy Poodles instead of Pit Bulls.
> It is not about killing overpopulated wild hogs.
> It is not about disliking Pit Bulls or mixes.
> ...


 
what? 
the breeds you selected don't have game are not bred for game are not bred for protection, active aggression or control of any livestock . 
non of them are functional - not even the cocker --

this is about dogs with meaningful , beneficial contributions , not about gladitorial roman fighting 

let's look at poodles which were wonderful water dogs . That's the reason for the curly coat. NOW we have poodles that are AFRAID OF WATER -- 

Please have a look at what the poodle could be Paris Poodles Search and Rescue

this should be the norm , not the exception.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Well, that would be baiting, and that is actually illegal. Most hog hunters do NOT do this--why risk a good dog if you don't have to? And no, I didn't read the link, but if you are talking about people pitting their dogs against captive hogs just to watch them fight, that's a totally different segment of ABPT owners and it doesn't reflect on hog hunters.


Go back, read the link. Once you read it, you understand exactly where I'm coming from and what this topic was about. It was never about hog hunting.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

When asked to describe gameness to people who have no clue I generally refer them to this well known movie clip 






George is bigger and stronger and will win every time. But who do you admire more? Paul. Why? Because what he should is gameness. The "no quit" attitude, no matter what.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> What a way to twist my words. I never said that I don't like Pit Bulls. I don't like that they are being fought against another living being to test "game". There is a reason why dog fighting is illegal and that is because it's despicable and brutal. Sending them out to kill hogs to test their gameness because dog fighting itself is illegal and doing it for the same reason is despicable is morally and ethically wrong.
> 
> And yeah, because getting killed while fighting a hog is not cruel, brutal and gruesome at all... it's just natural selection...
> 
> Makes me sick to my stomach!


 
How do you feel about a hamburger?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ramgsd said:


> When asked to describe gameness to people who have no clue I generally refer them to this well known movie clip
> 
> Cool Hand Luke Boxing Scene - YouTube
> 
> George is bigger and stronger and will win every time. But who do you admire more? Paul. Why? Because what he should is gameness. The "no quit" attitude, no matter what.


So you think 

how many true dog man and women are around - Page 4 - Pitbulls : Go Pitbull Dog Forums

this is okay? Read it all the way through. And then come back and tell me that it is okay and because it "has to be done".


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

MRS K. Just noticed you're in that link on a pit bull forum talking about those great pitbull dogs your aunt had. Where do you think those great dogs came from???????? Those old game-bred lines all PBT's come from. LOL.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

carmspack said:


> what?
> the breeds you selected don't have game are not bred for game are not bred for protection, active aggression or control of any livestock .
> non of them are functional - not even the cocker --
> 
> ...


Carmen I through out names of any dogs that came to mind.

I was trying to point out that what the people on the forum she cited were doing was something that would be like the examples I gave. The topic kept getting into hunting and that is not what those people wer about.

Sorry if you didn't like my examples but it gets the point across for some people.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

ramgsd said:


> George is bigger and stronger and will win every time. But who do you admire more? Paul. Why? Because what he should is gameness. The "no quit" attitude, no matter what.


I'm sorry, I boxed for a few years and fought in several tournaments. Fighting against someone you have no hope of beating and who is just going to keep hurting you until you're put out of commission isn't heart or gameness. It's stupid. Risking your career, your health, your life on one match is a moronic move and anyone who's been in the game for longer than it takes to watch Rocky will tell you the same. 

It looks great on a movie, it sounds wonderful in stories, but what they don't show you is the old man who's blind in one eye and can't drink hot coffee without spilling it because his hands shake so badly.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Alright MRS. K, pretty much everyone on here has stated that doing this, or anything for that matter, cruelly or illegally is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

So what more is there to say? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

ramgsd said:


> When asked to describe gameness to people who have no clue I generally refer them to this well known movie clip
> 
> Cool Hand Luke Boxing Scene - YouTube
> 
> George is bigger and stronger and will win every time. But who do you admire more? Paul. Why? Because what he should is gameness. The "no quit" attitude, no matter what.


Great movie. Do you remember what Luke's gameness got him in the end of the movie.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Great movie. Do you remember what Luke's gameness got him in the end of the movie.


Dead


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> I'm sorry, I boxed for a few years and fought in several tournaments. Fighting against someone you have no hope of beating and who is just going to keep hurting you until you're put out of commission isn't heart or gameness. It's stupid. Risking your career, your health, your life on one match is a moronic move and anyone who's been in the game for longer than it takes to watch Rocky will tell you the same.
> .





Jack's Dad said:


> Great movie. Do you remember what Luke's gameness got him in the end of the movie.


My point exactly. It's great in movies and stories and songs. Not so wonderful in real life.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ramgsd said:


> MRS K. Just noticed you're in that link on a pit bull forum talking about those great pitbull dogs your aunt had. Where do you think those great dogs came from???????? Those old game-bred lines all PBT's come from. LOL.


And your point is? There is nothing wrong in owning a pit bull. Yes, they do have a history but that does not mean that we have to continue with it!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Emoore said:


> My point exactly. It's great in movies and stories and songs. Not so wonderful in real life.


BTDT. My first match in Martial Arts was beyond unfair. The woman was bigger, stronger, older and more experienced. I royally lost 5-0 and threw in the towell that day... :wild:


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Emoore obviously you don't know the difference from boxing and what's going on in this movie. This was a dispute between men. Not a career or money. It was principle. If you were going to break him you were going to have to kill him. You think anyone there was going to want to fight with Luke again? I don't. Just because you and your boxing career had the "NO MAS" attitude.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

disregard message stupid cellphone


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

ramgsd said:


> Emoore obviously you don't know the difference from boxing and what's going on in this movie. This was a dispute between men. Not a career or money. It was principle. If you were going to break him you were going to have to kill him. You think anyone there was going to want to fight with Luke again? I don't. Just because you and your boxing career had the "NO MAS" attitude.


If it comes down to you and emoore, my money is on emoore.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> Great movie. Do you remember what Luke's gameness got him in the end of the movie.



That's what you'd call "DEAD GAME"

All jokes aside (this could become an off topic thread of it's own) do you not understand the difference in the fight scene and the end of the movie? (Not to mention we're talking humans and not animals here)

The end he was killed for breaking the law by escaping from the prison he was at, for breaking another law. 

The fight he should he was willing to go the distance for a principle he believed in. 

That's what wrong with society today; Very few people who will go the distance for a principle they believe in.

Again we're talking humans now not animals


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Emoore said:


> obviously you don't know the difference between dog fighting for sport and been fighting in prison


Obviously I do. It's just as obvious that you totally missed the point about what GAMENESS is. It doesn't have to be a dog fight to show gameness. I was at a weight pulling event where I saw an 85# dog pull 4700lbs with very little problem. Nice applause for the big guy. I also saw a 35# dog struggle with everything it had to pull 200lbs. Poor little guy couldn't make it to the end without help but you weren't going to convince him of that. He never gave up. The roar of the crowd was awesome. Why more for the little guy??????? Because what that little guy showed was gameness. Hope that helps you understand the meaning behind the term.

JACK'S DAD you write "If it comes down to you and emoore, my money is on emoore." I'd take that bet. Funny how reprehensible it is to match and bet 2 dogs but how willing you are to pit 2 men together. Not to mention how willing you are to initiate it but not participate. hopefully you could see past the protection of momma's skirt. LOL.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I'm sorry, I boxed for a few years and fought in several tournaments. Fighting against someone you have no hope of beating and who is just going to keep hurting you until you're put out of commission isn't heart or gameness. *So what did you do? Quit?* It's stupid. Risking your career, your health, your life on one match is a moronic move and anyone who's been in the game for longer than it takes to watch Rocky will tell you the same.
> 
> It looks great on a movie, it sounds wonderful in stories, but what they don't show you is the old man who's blind in one eye and can't drink hot coffee without spilling it because his hands shake so badly.


Boxing is just a sport - would you just give up if you were in a real street fight (ever get in one? Different than sport boxing!) and let someone whale on you or just quit, or fight back until you couldn't fight anymore? That is gameness!

If you think that someone can beat you - you are done! I don't want a dog that has that attitude!

BTW - FWIIW - ALL terriers (not just big tough Pitties) are supposed to have the quality of "Gameness" that is why the judge even in a conformation show will "Face Off" the dogs to see if they at least seem to have the fighting spirit.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Great movie. Do you remember what Luke's gameness got him in the end of the movie.


 
An Oscar?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> My point exactly. It's great in movies and stories and songs. Not so wonderful in real life.


 
Depends on the real life stakes, doesn't it?

Want your dog to think the better of risking his life to save you or your kid from the bad guy? Maybe better he should think "I will say my own %$%"".

The one time I needed a little assistance from my skinny 65lb female GSD I was really glad that she had a touch of Gameness, believe me!!!!!!!!!

She faced some very very big odds and helped save my sorry behind.

Gameness is a required characteristic of the GSD breed every bit as much as a pit.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

ramgsd said:


> Obviously I do. It's just as obvious that you totally missed the point about what GAMENESS is. It doesn't have to be a dog fight to show gameness. I was at a weight pulling event where I saw an 85# dog pull 4700lbs with very little problem. Nice applause for the big guy. I also saw a 35# dog struggle with everything it had to pull 200lbs. Poor little guy couldn't make it to the end without help but you weren't going to convince him of that. He never gave up. The roar of the crowd was awesome. Why more for the little guy??????? Because what that little guy showed was gameness. Hope that helps you understand the meaning behind the term.
> 
> JACK'S DAD you write "If it comes down to you and emoore, my money is on emoore." I'd take that bet. Funny how reprehensible it is to match and bet 2 dogs but how willing you are to pit 2 men together. Not to mention how willing you are to initiate it but not participate. hopefully you could see past the protection of momma's skirt. LOL.



CODMASTER I like your style. "AN OSCAR" I love it.:laugh:


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

codmaster said:


> BTW - FWIIW - ALL terriers (not just big tough Pitties) are supposed to have the quality of "Gameness" that is why the judge even in a conformation show will "Face Off" the dogs to see if they at least seem to have the fighting spirit.


Exactly what I was thinking. I had a JTR that would go until he'd fall over....literally. Wouldn't hurt man nor child, but if you had four legs... he was king of all beasts.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Except that I won't ever fight my dog with any living being to keep that so called "Gameness". 

I hate that word. It's drive! Drive, Courage, Hardness. Please do NOT let this become a regular term with German Shepherds. 

And there is a difference between courage and game. I'd rather have the courage than the game!


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

codmaster said:


> would you just give up if you were in a real street fight and let someone whale on you or just quit, or fight back until you couldn't fight anymore? That is gameness!


No- that is self preservation.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wildo said:


> No- that is self preservation.


Exactly.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , those dogs in real service, I mean the GSD , better have some game , some active aggression, some desire to overcome and defeat the opponent - AS LONG AS THE OPPONENT continues to fight. This is not choreographed sport - now you do this and I will do this, and we will count for three strokes of the baton stylistically swished over the top . Don't you think a weak dog can be conditioned to count and accept when something is going to finish , one , owww, two , ooooo, owww, three , phew . Go for four or five and with added speed and intensity as a real fight would have. 

Here is the beauty of the GSD , the element of conflict , even though they are in this mode they have to be in control of there power and yield to the handler . 

In herding the breeds used in continental europe, different than the english variety , they may as well be pig headed , an obstinant ram, sheep may challenge and drive the dog . One loose , one out of zone and all **** breaks loose. That is where the toughness of the GSD is needed. 
In the past I quoted excerpts straight out of the von Stephanitz book showing that the GSD was also used for hunting.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs. K is NOT against Pit bulls, nor does she hate them. 

Also I think a lot of people, myself included are getting confused with the terms hunting, fighting, or "gameness". This is the first time I have heard that word.

I think what Mrs. K is saying is that these people on that thread she showed are NOT hunting, they are FIGHTING their dogs with hogs. They are just using the term HUNTING to cover up their wrong doings and get away with it. Yes, there are people who do actually HUNT with their dogs, as Trickyshepherd explained, and there is nothing wrong with that. But in the case of the people in the thread Mrs. K posted they are NOT hunting, they are just calling it hunting. They are just using the term hunting as a cover up. 

I am NOT against hunting I have family who do it and friends whose family also do it, I am NOT against Pit bulls. 

Also if it were ramgsd vs. Emoore, my money is on Emoore.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Jessiewessie99's another one of those human pit fighters eh? Man I didn't know that there was that much free money out in California still. I heard you guys were broke. How much we talkin'? What weight-class are you in Emoore?


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

ramgsd said:


> Jessiewessie99's another one of those human pit fighters eh? Man I didn't know that there was that much free money out in California still. I heard you guys were broke. How much we talkin'? What weight-class are you in Emoore?


No, she just has common sense.


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I've heard many people use the saying "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - *Mark Twain* well known author and APBT owner. I wonder how he came up with that?????????


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> No, she just has common sense.


Well when are you going to show it on the board? Found it. Most be this post on the "randon thread" posting

Jessiewessie99 








I put too much chocolate syrup on my ice cream. 
__________________
Jessica-Shelter Volunteer


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I no longer have any idea what we are talking about....


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

ramgsd said:


> Well when are you going to show it on the board? Found it. Most be this post.
> 
> Jessiewessie99
> 
> ...


Umm.. that is on the "Random Thread" a light hearted thread that is supposed to be funny and not serious.

Is that you came on here to do is troll and look up posts about people and use it as an attack on people?


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

codmaster said:


> An Oscar?


Paul Newman won an oscar. Luke was shot dead.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Erm, Emoore's a female. Not a man.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lilie said:


> I no longer have any idea what we are talking about....


They don't either....


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

ramgsd said:


> Alright MRS. K, pretty much everyone on here has stated that doing this, or anything for that matter, cruelly or illegally is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> So what more is there to say? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?


Yup........what is being accomplished here? Really?

If someone were to start splitting hairs on the 'intent' of hunting they'd have the N.R.A. and the various hunting groups flipping out about the slippery slopes (see PETA for the other extreme).

Some may not like it but this is about different attitudes, beliefs and morality wrt to animals.

From the link (which took awhile to figure out which link you guys were talking about btw) - at the pittie site there seems to be one person who espouses this in particular:

_"Doesnt come without breeding for game, the package of the body is intuned with the genetic game trait. The further from game the further from performance bodied and minded dogs. Its the dog that does not fear and if he does.. he hulks out and consumes the fear as he cripples the beast in front of him. I live in the woods and I recommend everyone return to the country, thats where we all come from anyway. What happens your walking your GSD and some ghetto dog runs loose and breaks your dog? You'll wish you had a good game bred dog to prevent your lil baby from getting hurt, Dogs don't live by paper laws of man... Animals have the right to be animals.. __and we the people of the USA have every Constitutional and God given right to ... LIVE FREE_

_Whats the use of having a dog you have to look out for or worry about?"_

It's life in the wild wild west....


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

RocketDog said:


> Erm, Emoore's a female. Not a man.








Silly me. Still can't get used to the fact that women are now boxing these days.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not long ago every farm had a vermin dog , member of the terrier group , to reduce and control rats . Lines were improved when the ratters were brought into competition to see who was able to vanquish the most rats in the least time -- Rat-baiting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I had one , white and brown "Kippy" , who was a natural.
The person I got her from, an American who had the dogs used in the Disney film , the Incredible Journey, also had Patterdale Terriers -- want to talk about tough -- these little guys - jack russell size were used to hunt wild boar 
About Patterdale Terrier


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

ramgsd said:


> Thats a Woman!? {voice over} - YouTube
> 
> 
> Silly me. Still can't get used to the fact that women are now boxing these days.



Yep. We also vote and drive.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

carmspack said:


> not long ago every farm had a vermin dog , member of the terrier group , to reduce and control rats . Lines were improved when the ratters were brought into competition to see who was able to vanquish the most rats in the least time -- Rat-baiting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> I had one , white and brown "Kippy" , who was a natural.
> The person I got her from, an American who had the dogs used in the Disney film , the Incredible Journey, also had Patterdale Terriers -- want to talk about tough -- these little guys - jack russell size were used to hunt wild boar
> About Patterdale Terrier


They don't call them the lion-hearted of dogs for nothing!


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

RocketDog said:


> Yep. We also vote and drive.


Well the driving part is questionable... :lurking:


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

[


ramgsd said:


> JACK'S DAD you write "If it comes down to you and emoore, my money is on emoore." I'd take that bet. Funny how reprehensible it is to match and bet 2 dogs but how willing you are to pit 2 men together. Not to mention how willing you are to initiate it but not participate. hopefully you could see past the protection of momma's skirt. LOL.


Duh! It was a funny.

However you are pushing it on this forum. emoore is a woman. A very nice woman.
I don't have a mother or her skirts to hide behind and didn't when she was alive. I'm probably old enough to be your dad or even grandfather so get over yourself. The testosterone will calm down someday and then maybe you'll make some sense.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

wildo said:


> Well the driving part is questionable... :lurking:


You mean I'm NOT supposed to drive in the middle of the road? 

Why'd they make it so big, then?? :crazy:


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> Yep. We also vote and drive.


We get to wear pants and drink in bars nowadays too. God Bless the Women's Movement!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Which would explain why men have a higher incidence of accidents..'specially when driving by pretty ladies jogging down the street.....  





wildo said:


> Well the driving part is questionable... :lurking:


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> We get to wear pants and drink in bars nowadays too. God Bless the Women's Movement!


I'm going to wear pants and drink in a bar tonight at Happy Hour! WITH OTHER WOMEN!!

It MUST be 2012, the world is ending!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> I'm going to wear pants and drink in a bar tonight at Happy Hour! WITH OTHER WOMEN!!
> 
> It MUST be 2012, the world is ending!


You should take a vote on the world ending!


----------



## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Voting, driving and drinking... I understand. It's just that all the women I know hate watching boxing let alone are involved in it.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Maybe you just know the wrong women.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I dunno...boxing isn't the most popular sport with women...Each to their own ya know.


----------



## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I no longer have any idea what we are talking about....


I really never had any idea what we were talking about...


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , the last time you started such a fertile thread was the golden retriever doing schutzhund.
these hog hunting bull dogs are doing what they are bred for , physically and psycologically meant to do .
The golden retriever was not , should not , so which is better or more fair .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Alexandria610 said:


> I really never had any idea what we were talking about...


Allow me....

Jed Clampett

Jack Russells

pitties

poodles

Women's Rights 

Boxing.

..DRINKING


----------



## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Allow me....
> 
> Jed Clampett
> 
> ...


Ah, gotcha! Thanks for catching me up to speed  

I like drinking.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Excellent summary. 


The drinking part is the best. Although I must say the place I'm going tonight is renowned for their martinis, and I'm in the mood for beer. 

Wonder if there'll be any kids there?


----------



## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I gotta ask a quick off-topic question, not that this thread is really on topic... Carmen was it one of your dogs who was featured in a documentary (the RCMP story is so familiar) on a Canadian Dog Heroes show? I can't remember all the other dogs on it, I know Gander was on it...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Alexandria610 said:


> Ah, gotcha! Thanks for catching me up to speed
> 
> I like drinking.


....and don't forget I get to attend the next hog roast.. 

BYOB?


----------



## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ....and don't forget I get to attend the next hog roast..
> 
> BYOB?


Well I dunno. I'm a female...is that even allowed?


----------



## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

But seriously...getting back to the ORIGINAL post and question asked...


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I have to wait until November!!!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*Why of course*! 



The only questions would be.... Red Red Wine...Or....Margaritaville OR

Tequila! 



 




Alexandria610 said:


> Well I dunno. I'm a female...is that even allowed?


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Alexandria610 said:


> Well I dunno. I'm a female...is that even allowed?


Why would you even have to ask? She said BYOB...bring your own boobs...that is what it means, right?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*B*ring *Y*our *O*wn *Booze*!!

you...bad.... 

Or me old....






Lilie said:


> Why would you even have to ask? She said BYOB...bring your own boobs...that is what it means, right?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh look it's 5:00 somewhere, including here!

Red Wine time.....


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Why would you even have to ask? She said BYOB...bring your own boobs...that is what it means, right?


Lmao


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

codmaster said:


> BTW - FWIIW - ALL terriers (not just big tough Pitties) are supposed to have the quality of "Gameness" that is why the judge even in a conformation show will "Face Off" the dogs to see if they at least seem to have the fighting spirit.


Do they still do that in AKC shows? It's been a while since I've seen a judge ask terriers to spar.

And, Mrs. K, I think you're getting hung up on the word "game". As I said before, it means different things to different people; in one sense it means "to fight another dog to the death". In another sense, it means the desire to pursue and catch wild game. In yet another, it simply means readiness, courage, heart, grit and determination. To happily do anything that is asked, and do it 110%. In that sense, the GSD has "gameness", but I don't think anyone is ever going to use that word to describe the breed; in dog-speak, it means something that the GSD is not. 

A GSD is not bred to readily and fervently fight another dog even unto its own demise. Nor is it going to take off on game scent and trail, bay, or tree quarry. To do so would be to leave the handler and follow its own agenda; this is a quality that runs counter to a herding/guarding dog. So to say that a GSD is "game" in the doggie sense of the word would be inaccurate. But it's all a matter of semantics.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Freestep said:


> And, Mrs. K, I think you're getting hung up on the word "game". As I said before, it means different things to different people; *in one sense* it means "to fight another dog to the death". *In another sense*, it means the desire to pursue and catch wild game. In yet another, it simply means readiness, courage, heart, grit and determination. To happily do anything that is asked, and do it 110%.


Freestep, that is a nice summary of what Wikipedia says on the matter. Note that even wikipedia breaks it up into two different things, e.g., fighting and hunting.
Game (dog) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Side note: I find it interesting that "Prey Drive" is in the 'See Also' section for gameness on Wikipedia.)


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

People got hung up on "gameness", "hunting".

It's a simple question.

Do you think it is legal or o.k. to take dogs out to fight hogs?

Not to hunt or hold but to fight. Simple, simple, simple.

I think no it is not o.k.. 

Others will disagree but it's not a complicated question.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> People got hung up on "gameness", "hunting".
> 
> It's a simple question.
> 
> ...


No...not OK....


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Okay I went to the link, but I didn't see where anyone was talking about matching dogs on hogs. All I could find was this:

"when hog testing both animals generally live; if the dog kills the pig, you gotta good dog test him on a higher end boar and if the dog gets killed which happens time to time; you'll morn the loss and know what kind of dog not to use next time. "

They don't say anything about how "hog testing" is done.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*It is* legal as long as the game being hunted is in season.

Whether someone thinks it's o.k. or not is an opinion.

Hunting hogs, for any purpose, is a messy dangerous business.

IMO this whole argument to 'intent' (hold, kill, fight) behind the hunt is splitting hairs. 




Jack's Dad said:


> People got hung up on "gameness", "hunting".
> 
> It's a simple question.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *It is* legal as long as the game being hunted is in season.
> 
> Whether someone thinks it's o.k. or not is an opinion.
> 
> ...


Well whether it is legal or not I would never subject a dog to the treatment freestep quoted. 

Why does this thread bother people. There is a thread running right now about prong collars. Different opinions all over the place.
I use a prong. Some people are horrified over prongs. Isn't that what forums are about.
Frankly with the way some people coddle their GSD's I'm surprised that a dog pitted against a hog (legal or not) to be torn up and maybe killed seems to be just fine.

Don't use a prong , use a humane harness. Dog gets killed because a human wants to test dog against a hog. No problem.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

My father was quite the hunter outdoorsman. He went on one and only ONE hog hunt for a reason and they were hunting to cull the population AND for the meat.

The thread title is "Is that legal" yes it is.

Yeah for some people it's o.k. to put a dog onto a hog,_ for any reason_, which may well end with the dog injured or dead.

I personally could NOT do it.....though.

^and is _my opinion._

....but then I also don't buy meat from factory farming.....the way we treat livestock on some of these huge corporate farms is abhorrent so I buy certified grass fed humanely raised beef and poultry.



Jack's Dad said:


> Well whether it is legal or not I would never subject a dog to the treatment freestep quoted.
> 
> Why does this thread bother people. There is a thread running right now about prong collars. Different opinions all over the place.
> I use a prong. Some people are horrified over prongs. Isn't that what forums are about.
> ...


----------



## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> People got hung up on "gameness", "hunting".
> 
> It's a simple question.
> 
> ...


Hog hunting is legal. I do not think pitting a dog vs. a hog for the purpose of entertainment is OK. An actual hunt is different IMO.

However, the quotes I have seen so far (I haven't actually read the thread), sound like they might be testing the dogs. If your health/life was on the line and you were relying on a dog to do it's job to protect you from serious injury, I would certainly expect you to test the dog before bringing it on a live hunt. Perhaps this is what they are referring to? Testing the dog to see if it will be fit for hunting?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

OK, so next question. What's the difference between sending a dog or dogs into deep brush after an angry 500lb hog and sending a dog or dogs into deep brush after an angry 2000lb bull? Is the only difference that one ends in the death of the hog, while the other does not end in the death of the bull? 

I'm talking about cattle herding here.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> OK, so next question. What's the difference between sending a dog or dogs into deep brush after an angry 500lb hog and sending a dog or dogs into deep brush after an angry 2000lb bull? Is the only difference that one ends in the death of the hog, while the other does not end in the death of the bull?
> 
> I'm talking about cattle herding here.


I think the issue is intent. If a dog is injured or killed doing a job (herding cattle, police work) that's life and stuff happens.

I don't think dogs fighting hogs is a valid job or sport. Hunting yes.
I mean if they are going to fight hogs then why not each other.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Tiffseagles said:


> However, the quotes I have seen so far (I haven't actually read the thread), sound like they might be testing the dogs. If your health/life was on the line and you were relying on a dog to do it's job to protect you from serious injury, I would certainly expect you to test the dog before bringing it on a live hunt. Perhaps this is what they are referring to? Testing the dog to see if it will be fit for hunting?


This is what I gathered from the thread... pups and young dogs need to be tested, just as we temperament test our GSDs. I have seen it done (in pictures, not firsthand) by putting a pup into a pen with a small hog and seeing how he reacts and performs. As I understand it, hog testing is for testing/training purposes, not sport purposes, and people don't place bets or anything like that. It's not done simply to watch a fight; there's a purpose and it's a means to an end. I sure as heck would want to know how a dog is going to act around hogs BEFORE I go out into the woods with him... and how else are you going to know? 

Again, if people are matching hogs against dogs just to see a fight and wager, that is baiting, which is illegal and unethical.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah but the problem arguing to intent is it's a super slippery and _subjective_ slope and will invite all kinds of 'what ifs'.

You'll not change the minds of the guys on the forum to which Mrs K refers.

All we can do is live by example.





Jack's Dad said:


> I think the issue is intent. If a dog is injured or killed doing a job (herding cattle, police work) that's life and stuff happens.
> 
> I don't think dogs fighting hogs is a valid job or sport. Hunting yes.
> I mean if they are going to fight hogs then why not each other.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> I think the issue is intent. If a dog is injured or killed doing a job (herding cattle, police work) that's life and stuff happens.
> 
> I don't think dogs fighting hogs is a valid job or sport. Hunting yes.
> I mean if they are going to fight hogs then why not each other.


So you're ok with hunting hogs with dogs for the purpose of eradicating the nuisance animal or getting some tasty pork, but now setting dogs on hogs for the purpose of "testing gameness" or entertainment.


----------



## Whiteboy (Jul 19, 2011)

wasnt going to touch this but i guess il jump on in the fun. ok lets say your gsd is a police dog, that dog has a chance to get killed or injured. so its wrong for a dog to be used in the same way to hunt hogs? lol. ok now thats thats out of the way. a police dog has to be tested just like any other tool, and so does a hog dog, weather or not you like it this is how it has been done since the pits were bred. i still cant figure out how ppl think its ok for a dog to be used as a tool in one way and not a different dog used in this....


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Chelle, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Honestly, the only thing that bothers me about you is that rather than admit you are very ignorant of the topics, and keep an open mind toward learning something, you think you're educated and profess to be, which is frightening because *the information you're passing onto others* via the www is scarily slanted and *just plain nuts*. You cannot (well, you can, I guess, but it sure seems nutty) cite a website as "proof" or "references" of anything without checking the credibility of the site. ANYONE can put up a site and say anything they want. Does that make it true? You claim you've done lots of research- where?? If your best source is a site where the author things an Argentine Dogo is a Pit Bull, methinks it may be time to go back to the drawing board. :smirk:
> 
> I am going to try to refrain from further arguments because you cannot open a closed mind, and I think my time and info (garnered through over 20 years of research and experience with real live American Pit Bull Terriers on leashes in my own hands) would be better spent educating those who do not profess to know it all and who are interested in learning the truth on such matters.


Rather than hurling insults, please do go ahead and tell me *anything* I've said that is wrong or is "*nuts*". *Anything, please*. I made that webpage myself. It took countless hours. I made sure I had properly referenced and quoted. 

And for the third time, the Dogo Argentino pic is explained later on.



Jack's Dad said:


> ...It is about whether it is o.k. to risk serious injury or death to a dog just for the sole purpose of testing its gameness. That is what is bothers people....


Agree.



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Also I think a lot of people, myself included are getting confused with the terms hunting, fighting, or "gameness". This is the first time I have heard that word.


All due respect, you've literally came after me with a *breakstick* in defense of pitbulls, but you've never heard the term "gameness" ???????????? Also with all due respect, you yourself have several times called me ignorant and uneducated, yet you've never heard this term? 

Why is so much pitbull stuff on a GSD forum, anyway? Aren't there plenty of pitbull forums out there already?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

chelle said:


> I made that webpage myself. It took countless hours. I made sure I had properly referenced and quoted.


I'm sorry Chelle...I like you...I really do...but that website is completely anti pitbull without referencing any reputable breeders, the history of the dog, how about the dog from Little Rascals? Pitbull...I think you really missed the boat on a fair and balanced informational website. Did you contact any rescues and talk to them? to ask what their success rate with adoption was? How many aggressive dogs vs. non aggressive dogs? There is just so much missing.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I'm sorry Chelle...I like you...I really do...but that website is completely anti pitbull without referencing any reputable breeders, the history of the dog, how about the dog from Little Rascals? Pitbull...I think you really missed the boat on a fair and balanced informational website. Did you contact any rescues and talk to them? to ask what their success rate with adoption was? How many aggressive dogs vs. non aggressive dogs? There is just so much missing.


Jax08, with all due respect to you as well.. no mention of history? Seriously? 

And who cares about the dog from the Little Rascals? 

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I stand by it.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> So you're ok with hunting hogs with dogs for the purpose of eradicating the nuisance animal or getting some tasty pork, but now setting dogs on hogs for the purpose of "testing gameness" or entertainment.


Hunting for eradicating or food done legally yes.

Setting them on hogs with the possibility of injury or death for gameness or entertainment no.

Freestep if you read enough on that forum I think they are using them for baiting. They are careful with their language though. Of course I can't prove that. Just go there and read for awhile.l

Gwenhwyfair.

Your right about not changing peoples minds. I also agree with you about the way livestock are treated but oh well.


----------



## Whiteboy (Jul 19, 2011)

chelle said:


> Jax08, with all due respect to you as well.. no mention of history? Seriously?
> 
> And who cares about the dog from the Little Rascals?
> 
> I'm sorry you feel that way, but I stand by it.


guess i missed the site you posted, but from reading the past few messages it sounds like you are aginst pits? idk if u are or not so il refraine from saying anything else on this.....back to the topic at hand dont wana high jack the thread


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Hunting for eradicating or food done legally yes.
> 
> Setting them on hogs with the possibility of injury or death for gameness or entertainment no.
> 
> ...


Thats exactly how I feel. I've read enough to be highly suspicious.
Hunting, as long as it's done right, yes. Absolutely. But setting them out, like you said. No, absolutely not. There is a difference and fine line between the two. 

A dog with a job can be killed but we can get killed anytime we leave the house that doesn't make it right that we go out and kill somebody else just to see if we can do it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

chelle said:


> Jax08, with all due respect to you as well.. no mention of history? Seriously?
> 
> And who cares about the dog from the Little Rascals?
> 
> I'm sorry you feel that way, but I stand by it.


Well, you should. If you are talking about the history of the dog then you should care about the dogs that were well bred, which includes that dog. 

Didn't you just have a post not to long ago about Bailey possibly being part pit? If you are going to write something then it should be fair and balanced. Good and bad. You just wrote a scary page with all the bad. If you read a page on GSDs that only listed the bad, would you take it seriously?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh Well??  

...I love dogs, I really do. I wouldn't spend as much time here enjoying discussions about dogs if I didn't.

Really tho...I think this is A) not as prevelant wrt hog hunting as to warrant such a discussion in addition to really splitting hairs. B) there are a lot of other atrocities being committed on innocent animals en masse that we can do something about, like support local small farms.....

Human beings can be so cruel, to fellow beings on this earth and to each other....I don't know what the answer is. 





Jack's Dad said:


> Hunting for eradicating or food done legally yes.
> 
> Setting them on hogs with the possibility of injury or death for gameness or entertainment no.
> 
> ...


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Whiteboy said:


> guess i missed the site you posted, but from reading the past few messages it sounds like you are aginst pits? idk if u are or not so il refraine from saying anything else on this.....back to the topic at hand dont wana high jack the thread


Sigh. Exhausting. The site is in my sig.



Jax08 said:


> Well, you should. If you are talking about the history of the dog then you should care about the dogs that were well bred, which includes that dog.
> 
> Didn't you just have a post not to long ago about Bailey possibly being part pit? If you are going to write something then it should be fair and balanced. Good and bad. You just wrote a scary page with all the bad. If you read a page on GSDs that only listed the bad, would you take it seriously?


Did you honestly read the entire page? 

And yes I did make such a post. There is a small possibility he has that in his lineage somewhere, but only because of a small part of his looks do I say that.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Let me take this off of Pit Bulls and hunting for a different type example.

If I had a well bred, well trained Labrador Retriever I wouldn't risk it's life to see if it had heart.

I could take it out in a boat and send it to retrieve a bird at a distance that the dog might not be able to make but possibly could. If I followed the logic of that other forum and my Lab drowned, I'd be better off without him because he didn't show me enough heart or courage or stamina.

Doesn't make any more sense to me than dogs fighting hogs.
.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, Chelle. I read the entire page.


----------



## Whiteboy (Jul 19, 2011)

chelle said:


> Sigh. Exhausting. The site is in my sig.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well i lookied through it.....i will say what i mainly read seemed like ur a pit hater and have no clue wtf u are talking about lol. that is all.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No it wouldn't make sense to you Andy.....me either for that matter....but the guys on the other forum refer to the dogs as 'tools' for a job.

That's how they see it, is this tool fit for the job and that's how a lot of people _used_ to feel about dogs.

I recall the old farmers I grew up around...if a farm dog attacked livestock, just once, it was considered useless and shot.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh Well??
> 
> ...I love dogs, I really do. I wouldn't spend as much time here enjoying discussions about dogs if I didn't.
> 
> ...


Your probably right but once in awhile I do want to advocate for the dogs but I am wearing out.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Yes, Chelle. I read the entire page.


Well I am sorry you feel the way you do. I am seriously saddened and disheartened by the plight of the pitbull. The pic of all the dead dogs is horribly depressing to me. Those vids are horribly depressing to me. The attitude of so many in regards to this breed is horribly depressing to me.

I'm going to leave it at that. It isn't worth going any further.



Whiteboy said:


> well i lookied through it.....i will say what i mainly read seemed like ur a pit hater and have no clue wtf u are talking about lol. that is all.


And you have no clue about proper grammar. Perhaps, "Whiteboy," you can better inform those of us who have "no clue." Begin now, please. After you pull up your sagging pants, anyway. Thank you.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Nothing wrong with caring, that's for sure!! 

The serenity prayer comes to mind:

"_God grant me the serenity 
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference_."





Jack's Dad said:


> Your probably right but once in awhile I do want to advocate for the dogs but I am wearing out.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Whiteboy said:


> well i lookied through it.....i will say what i mainly read seemed like ur a pit hater and have no clue wtf u are talking about lol. that is all.


Chelle is entitled to her opinion just as anyone else without being called names. If you read that from her page, then you are sadly mistaken.

I see at least two forum rules broken in your post. You might want to go read the rules.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Your probably right but once in awhile I do want to advocate for the dogs but I am wearing out.


Me too. It's exhausting trying to raise awareness... I should have known better not to open the topic.


----------



## Whiteboy (Jul 19, 2011)

chelle said:


> Well I am sorry you feel the way you do. I am seriously saddened and disheartened by the plight of the pitbull. The pic of all the dead dogs is horribly depressing to me. Those vids are horribly depressing to me. The attitude of so many in regards to this breed is horribly depressing to me.
> 
> I'm going to leave it at that. It isn't worth going any further.
> 
> ...


sagging pants? lol im guessing thats some kind of racial comment and obviously you have not seen the pants i wear....whiteboy is a nick name lets leave it at that "chelle", didnt know i was in you grammer class but thanks lol. id be more than happy to educate ya in the form of other well informed and eductaed sites if u want.


----------



## Whiteboy (Jul 19, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Chelle is entitled to her opinion just as anyone else without being called names. If you read that from her page, then you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> I see at least two forum rules broken in your post. You might want to go read the rules.


thanks for the adivice lol, did read the bias site and stated how i feel just like me u are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Me too. It's exhausting trying to raise awareness... I should have known better not to open the topic.


I think it was a good topic and am glad you did. the point of it being that baiting dogs against feral and wild animals is illegal. How many people in the general public know that is going on?


----------



## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Me too. It's exhausting trying to raise awareness... I should have known better not to open the topic.



Yeah - I have noticed that it is really hard to start a topic about anything that can be seen as 'controversial' and then expect much more than a fight about something (be it a particular breed mentioned, an act mentioned, a question about the subject that was asked, or something of the like). 

There was, as there always seems to be, a miscommunication somewhere down the lines. This stirred emotions and made defenses raise, as we all know animal lovers (myself included) can become very emotional and defensive when it comes to topics regarding animals (especially one so controversial as this). It was a good topic to start, but I think that in the end it all got misconstrued and people started raising defenses. I think that some people saw it as you viewing that site and 'all' pit owners/lovers/enthusiasts as ignorant or cruel. Not just a simple interest and question that you wanted to be answered (since you obviously have most experience with GSD's, and not bully breeds or dogs of the like) <-- I could be wrong, and if I am, I apologize.

People became offended, for one reason or another, and attacked. It happens. 

It turned into a fight about pit bulls again. It always seems to.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I think it was a good topic and am glad you did. the point of it being that baiting dogs against feral and wild animals is illegal. How many people in the general public know that is going on?


I didn't know it was going on until I joined that forum. :help:


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

chelle said:


> Rather than hurling insults, please do go ahead and tell me *anything* I've said that is wrong or is "*nuts*". *Anything, please*. I made that webpage myself. It took countless hours. I made sure I had properly referenced and quoted.
> 
> And for the third time, the Dogo Argentino pic is explained later on.
> 
> ...


Maybe because I come from a rescue perspective. I probably have heard of it, but just didn't think anything of it. Just because I never heard of it doesn't mean I am not educated. Also, I don't associate myself with people who do that sort of thing. I also don't agree with the way those on that forum Mrs. K posted use the term "gameness".

I found this one at the bottom the GSD forum's page. I joined it to be more educated, but I don't like the people on there very much. Some are good, but most not so much. No its not because "its not what I wanted to hear" I just didn't like how many of the members acted.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think this thread has run it's course, and again, the name calling, etc, is rampant, my warning was not heeded so I'm shutting it down.


----------

