# Your thoughts on my training session ...



## 2manyqs (May 1, 2011)

I had a private training session with a recommended trainer today, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Background: I adopted a 2 yo female GSD. Honeymoon phase is over. Started with leash pulling, then increased barking, then leash aggression, etc.

The trainer today did most of the leash holding and I took over towards the end. Note that she didn't use treats or praise the entire time. She pretty much used the command "No", body blocking and corrections on the prong collar.

We saw Riley's first freakout when a dog about 50 feet away came through the parking lot. The method she used to correct her was to always sit Riley when she saw another potential dog encounter. When Riley noticed the dog, she would body block, tell "No" and pull up on her prong collar strongly. This continue with less emphatic collar corrections until Riley was able to calm down. Note that the trainer would always make the collar slack as soon as she could.

Moving along, she worked on corrections (small yanks on the prong coller) while we were walking. She was kept on a pretty short leash (always slack with the exception of corrections), but the trainer said in time it could progress to the truly "loose leash" position. 

When we would see a dog coming, she would tell Riley to sit, then she would stand in front of her blocking the view of the oncoming dog. Then she would do small leash corrections until Riley chilled.

Over the course of 1.5 hours, Riley pretty much calmed down and we were able to let other dogs walk by (even me once) without her throwing the typical fit. The trainer said that in time, I should be able to keep walking (just keep myself b/w Riley and the other dog.)

The trainer seems to think Riley wasn't socialized with other dogs much and so is showing some fear aggression. I'm not stepping up as leader and need to do this consistently. 

I was pleased with the outcome, but it seemed a bit heavy handed compared to some of the trainer for GSD that I've previously read. I'm working on the NILIF program, but so I haven't seen any specific ways to handle leash agression. Is the above approach a companion approach while walking to support the NILIF program?

Any thoughts are appreciated.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If the trainers methods are working, stay with it consistantly. Consistancy is key in desensitizing.

Personally, I found using a prong to correct a dog for reactivity just ramped up the dog. And the dog saw the correction as coming from what she was reacting to. 
I had to stop using a prong for my reactive dog(90# of muscle and hard to control) and went with the LAT game and a flat martingale collar.
A front clip harness is another option if you don't want to use a prong.
It worked enough to get her into an agility class where she was pretty neutral to other dogs(except one breed, sheltie)and it helped to build her confidence. Maturity was what really helped...at three she settled and is only fear aggressive at the vets office
If you find you aren't getting anywhere, then I recommend the book Control Unleashed and try the exercises outlined in the book. They do work.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I tend to agree with what your trainer did except I'm all for praising as soon as the bad behavior stops. Too many people do the politically correct type of training which, IMHO, is totally worthless. It makes you feel good about not training your dog. This method is actually stopping the behavior dead in it's tracks so you can get past it and start working on the good behaviors you want.


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## KittyKat (Nov 19, 2009)

I agree with Elaine.... and also with positive reinforcement commands. I like a good verbal Like a "leave it" followed by a collar correction release when wanted behavior is achieved then a praise of "good leave it" or whatever you have picked. (small corrections not choking the dog out) 

My male is VERY stubborn and he doesn't even notice when he gets a correction anymore. He could care less. He will be two at the end of June and his neck is so strong and he is also 90lbs. But we still work at it on a daily basis. Females in heat are the WORST thing to deal with for us.... I dred a female in heat! lol

Wishing you luck let us know how it goes!


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Some of the leash aggression may also be resource guarding you. It's living the NILF/structure/lifestyle whatever you want to call it can help there.

I wouldn't use treats for leash aggression just because my timing sucks and I'd be giving a nice tasty treat for reactivity or aggression. The body blocks and leash corrections (as KittyKat said not choking out the dog) are a bit more effective as far as not rewarding unwanted behavior (at least for me)

My dog still reacts with other dogs walking down the street that are pulling their owners or very dominant body language. I make her sit and wait for these ding dongs to go past. (the ones that have a prong collar on a flexi-lead 16 feet out in front of them.) If she doesn't react...Lots of praise and affection. (Or, sometimes I use the ball as a reward) I definitely don't cross the street or divert from my chosen path as I figure that's avoidance to any issue. Neither one of us gets any better doing that.

ETA: "Leave it" my favorite command *grin*


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'll chime in here, having rehabbed two fear aggressive dogs (they were aggressive towards people and not other dogs) and also having worked Rafi through leash reactivity after I adopted him. 

Let me first say that I use NILIF with all new dogs in my home. I am a calm, confident and consistent leader. I also spend a lot of time playing with my dogs and use that play time to train and build the dog's confidence and also our bond. 

In both cases that I mentioned above, I used positive reinforcement and counter conditioning. In Basu's case this was a new type of training for me. I learned to train using methods much like your new trainer taught you but once I learned other methods I discovered that I got better overall. long term results from the positive reinforcement and counter conditioning and fun! It certainly took longer than issuing a physical correction but it also meant that I didn't need a collar to get the behavior I wanted from my dog and it also resulted in a better bond with my dog. 

So, while the yank and crank method is sometimes quicker and easier, in my experience it is not nearly as effective as working _with_ your dog to get through the behavior. In the worst case scenario (which is actually fairly common) the yank and crank method will create a strong negative association with the scary thing (the other dog, in this case) and eventually you will end up with an even more out-of-control dog and reactive dog who doesn't trust you and shuts down and goes into strike mode when they are stressed. 

For Rafi I used LAT (Look at that!) to work through the leash reactivity and used positive reinforcement for desirable behavior. He was given lots of boundaries at home (NILIF and training throughout the daily routine and games that had rules which established me as a fun and fair leader). He is now great in all situations, including around other dogs on leash, even when they react towards him, and is totally under voice control. He is a happy, trustworthy and predictable dog and an excellent listener, exactly what I hoped for when I adopted him.


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## 2manyqs (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. There is no doubt that we have many things to teach each other that go beyond the collar. She needs to learn self control and focus, and I need to learn leadership and Alpha.

I do like the approach the trainer took in that it immediately forced Riley's attention on the moment and it also forces me to look ahead and prepare her for success. Ideally, the yanking won't happen too many times before she gets the hint that "Momma sees the other dog, she seems fine with it, I should be fine with it."

I took her on another walk last night and we only saw a few dogs. One was right in the courtyard outside the condo but I was able to quickly insert my body between her and the other dog, yank once, say "No" and when that didn't slow her down, I was at least able to use my body to block her and move her away from the situation. Those "surprise" moments are definitely the ones that have made me the most nervous, but at least I know how to get us out of the situation quickly even if that doesn't mean she sits quietly. When we ran across another dog I saw coming down the street, I was able to put her in a sit, block her body and gently correct her into paying attention to me. The next dog she saw at a distance I was able to do a slight correction and she moved her focus from the dog to me and we just kept right on walking.

I agree that long term yank and crank isn't the way that I want to go. However, I'm fine with this approach for a little while as we continue to work on the core behaviors of "listen to momma" and "watch the other dog and learn he/she isn't something to be frightened of afterall."

Along with additional tricks she showed me (not greeting her when I come through the door or leave), NILIF, etc I hope that only slight corrections to get her attention will be required and we can finally move off the prong.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Supposedly this was a dog who did agility? And her owner was ill? I am wondering if you can get some more info from the shelter. I do know people who have contacted the former owners to let them know that the dog is okay. Agility would indicate a dog used to being around other dogs, people, etc. 

I completely agree with Ruth and this was precisely the kind of training I said I would walk away from with a 10 week old dog. (that's how I view it - new dog to you = 8 week old puppy in terms of how you teach them, plus the 2 weeks you've had her)

*I know she knows, but .... 
First thread
*


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

It sounds like she is doing a good job to desensitize your dog and correct the leash issues.

I have always used chokers/prong collars until recently when I started a training class with my GSD puppy. I was advised that those are all fine and good for dogs who know commands, but to use them on a puppy who is just learning commands and behavior modifications they are not appropriate. We use a nylon correction collar which works great. 

I was also told with leash aggressive dogs that using a choker such as a prong collar can actually make it worse by further upsetting and aggressive dog. 

The BEST command I have learned it the "Look" command. Because that command demands attention on you. So if you can master getting your dog to look at you and focus on you everytime she begins to become reactive to a situation you can control her reaction by just making her focus on something else. You. 

Train Your Dog to Look At You - Getting Your Dog’s Attention

Good luck and keep it consistent and be the leader!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

After training Jax with a prong collar and no treats, I've decided that it's a crappy way to train. If this is working for you, then by all means continue but I would definitely add positive reinforcement into your training regiment. As soon as he looks at you, treat and praise him.

Personally, I found the same thing as Jane in a reactive situation while using a prong. It just ramped Jax up and made the situation worse. I have no problems with corrections, and I use them, but you have to build a relationship with your dog and you have to reward them when they do something right.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

It's very hard to build any sort of relationship with a dog pulling the kinds of nonsense this dog is. Keep doing what you are doing and then you can start to build a proper relationship and develop good behaviors. Good for you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

With all due respect, that is not true, Elaine. You can build a relationship with your dog in any place, not just walking around other dogs or in situations the dog will react. There is certainly more than one way to train a dog.

TO the OP, your dog needs to relate the 'reward' (toy, food, praise) back to you. I did this with Jax with a frisbee in my yard where there weren't any situations for her to react to. Throw the frisbee while using a "marker" word. In my case, the word was Yes! Once she was looking to me for direction I added commands. Down, Sit, Stand. Once she did it, Yes! and throw. It works. I can now go for a walk with Jax on a flat collar without her dragging me down the road because she's looking back at me for validation due to building a relationship.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Long term, the corrections could quite possibly cause more work for you in the long run. Essentially what could possibly happen is training out any warning. Because the correction happens when she reacts, she will no longer react but the aggression is still an underlying issue and the "reaction" will jump right to an attack if allowed. 

You need to change the way her mind thinks in those situations. Other dogs bring good things, not harm. 

Read Controlled Unleash...most of the opinions such as the LAT command come from that book. Also read The Other End of the Leash and watch Calming Signals as well as The Language of Dogs. All of these resources will allow you to read the dog's body language and give you the tools necessary for training well BEFORE she reacts. 

Although the prong can be a useful training tool, corrections only work when they dog truly realizes what you are asking and ignores. Think of it as rung 4 on the ladder and you skipped rungs 1-3. Kind of hard to swing your leg up that high


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Elaine said:


> It's very hard to build any sort of relationship with a dog pulling the kinds of nonsense this dog is. Keep doing what you are doing and then you can start to build a proper relationship and develop good behaviors. Good for you.


I also disagree. What sort of relationship are you building with the dog when corrections is the only training method used? 

Luckily dogs are so forgiving...if not most of us would be in a world of hurt. 

I am not saying that the training methods are dead wrong, just in the wrong order. You need to build the relationship with the dog through positive methods, train a good focus as well as trust. Then move on to working the reactions well before the reaction happens. This may mean you need to sit outside of the park or a football field away from other dogs at first. Often times reaction = fear. 
Imagine if you were deathly afraid of sharks and I threw you in the tank with adult great whites. Now imagine if I started you off with baby sharks and you just dunked your hand in.


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

Elaine said:


> It's very hard to build any sort of relationship with a dog pulling the kinds of nonsense this dog is. Keep doing what you are doing and then you can start to build a proper relationship and develop good behaviors. Good for you.


I used prong corrections with Willow to help with her reactivity and I would say it really hurt my relationship with her. 
How you train really depends on the dog. My dog is sensitive and anxious and the prong was not the right direction to go. I have noticed a huge difference in her actions outdoors and her interaction with me since we have moved to a more positive-based training program similar to what Jane referenced in her post.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

valreegrl said:


> I also disagree. What sort of relationship are you building with the dog when corrections is the only training method used?
> 
> Luckily dogs are so forgiving...if not most of us would be in a world of hurt.
> 
> ...


Perfectly stated :hug:


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

cshepherd9 said:


> I used prong corrections with Willow to help with her reactivity and I would say it really hurt my relationship with her.
> How you train really depends on the dog. My dog is sensitive and anxious and the prong was not the right direction to go. I have noticed a huge difference in her actions outdoors and her interaction with me since we have moved to a more positive-based training program similar to what Jane referenced in her post.


Exactly. Unfortunately, many dog owners do not have the knowledge or ability to be able to read their dog properly. There are a lot of anxious, sensitive, fearful dogs out there on prongs and those people wonder why it isn't working. Not every method is for every dog and it goes both ways. Our dogs need to first learn to look at us for the answer in all situations not veer away from the correction that comes after that confusion.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

To the OP, obviously it's up to you to decide how you want to train your dog, but since you asked for opinions, I will give you mine. I would not use the trainer you are using. I see prong corrections as a shortcut that MIGHT get you where you want to be, or you may end up totally off course and have to spend twice as long on your journey. Maybe you got lucky with the dog you have in that she will respond in a manner that you like with a negative stimulus. For me personally, I do not want to take that risk.

I have a dog reactive dog. Niko is very afraid of dogs, and will bark and posture at other dogs, but when pressed will seek to escape the situation. This is what happened to us today when I took him into town to walk around and see the school kids unloading from the buses (he's also afraid of kids). We were taking a trip around the block to return to the car when a dog in a fenced yard saw us and began barking furiously. I had found a tennis ball earlier, and right away I bounced the ball in front of him and said "Get that ball Niko!" is a happy and fun manner. Niko was clearly torn on what he wanted to do. He let out a couple of half-hearted barks, then went for the ball. I threw a party for him with treats and praise and we danced away from the barker, chasing the ball and having a merry old time.

I am hoping to create an idea in his head that a barking dog is not a world threatening disaster, but something to be ignore in favor of more fun activities. I know for myself personally, giving Niko a painful correction instead, at that moment of him seeing the dog and preparing to bark, would make me feel very upset. I am not above giving a correction, but I find that when I do, I am unable to do it in an impartial manner. By that I mean that giving a negative stimulus makes ME feel angry at the dog. I am just not emotionally equipped to train in that manner without going too far and possibly scaring or hurting my dog.


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## 2manyqs (May 1, 2011)

Wow, this did indeed spark a conversation and it's much appreciated. 

Just to report on our walk this evening: We didn't have any surprise moments or aggressive dogs cross our path so this might just be a fluke, but on the occasions when we saw dogs (note, I would see the dog and continue forward to watch for any reaction from her - excitement, intense focusing looks, etc) I was able to sit her right away and stand in front of her. She only barked the first few times but remained relatively calm as compared to before. No hackles, no jumping up. I only had to correct (and my corrections are significantly less then what I saw the trainer do) a few times to get her attention. As long as she wasn't whining/barking/"hackling" I didn't correct her. I'm fine with her just watching the dog in a nonaggressive way as mostly it's a curiosity thing it seems. When she calmed I said "ok" - praised her and kept on walking. Towards the end, we were able to just keep on walking while she watched and I jingled her collar a bit.

When folks think of "corrections" I'm almost positive most are thinking of the hard core yank em up style. I've only had to do that the one time (surprise attack) so far. She knows her commands and is excellent with focus when there are no distractions. But a combination of overstimulation and lack of self control are the big stumbling blocks towards getting her attention. And I'm still correcting my own behavior to clear up mixed signals.

I guess for me, I'm mixing up the behavior modification (which is the root of the issue) with use of the prong for minor corrections to get her attention. Even with the slight corrections during walking, she is no longer pulling (much or consistently) and she's even able to control herself with squirrels. That's quite a feat. Trust me, I'm totally doing the treat/praise route. We did that solely for the first 6 weeks but I still wasn't able to rein in her leash attacks. At least now, she seems more responsive with the sits/stays/body blocking and the NILIF is starting to increase the awareness that I'm in charge and not her.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

2manyqs said:


> The trainer today did most of the leash holding and I took over towards the end. Note that she didn't use treats or praise the entire time. She pretty much used the command "No", body blocking and corrections on the prong collar.


Way too much "no" for me.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I wouldn't train this way. I would work on building focus, avoiding thresholds, etc. I would also try to get the dog back into agility which will take a lot of her energy and demands focus from her.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I fostered a GSD that turned out to be dog reactive. He had been tied up inside a completely dark warehouse for several months before the rescue got hold of him. He was good with my pack but went NUTS when he saw other dogs.

I put him on a prong collar and took him to a local park to work with him. There were a couple people walking their dogs around so I started with him at a sizable distance from the other dogs. As soon as he saw them he started barking and lunging on the leash.

I gave him a correction. Then another. Then a stronger correction. Then I decided I really needed to get his attention so I really popped him one.

He whirled around and nailed me in the leg.

That’s when I learned that aggressive techniques are NOT the best way to deal with aggressive behaviors.

The University of Pennsylvania did a year long study in 2009 on dog owners who use confrontational or aversive methods to train aggressive pets. The results showed that dogs were more likely to respond in an negative/aggressive manner when their owners used negative/aggressive methods.

Here is a link to the study.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> He whirled around and nailed me in the leg.
> 
> That’s when I learned that aggressive techniques are NOT the best way to deal with aggressive behaviors.
> 
> ...


 Did the study indicate anything about the onership history of the dogs used? I.E. did the trainer own the dogs and how old the dogs were and how long had they owned them for? I read somewhere that these things can make a big difference in handler aggression. Along with the force of the correction, of course. 

A gradual escalation in the correction will not often work with truly aggressive, self confident dogs.

The best trainers that I have seen will definetly adapt the training to the individual dog.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

I've had 2 GSD with fear aggression; tried different methods with each. With the first, my methods were very similar to those you describe the trainer doing in your inital post: prong collar, sitting when another dog is visible, corrections for reactivity, etc. Got me NOWHERE but further behind. Eventually my only alternative was to walk her very early in the am, and late at night when the risk of an incident was reduced. Very disappointing. With my second (and current) GSD, I tried a different approach: Jolly Routine, confidence building, NO CORRECTIONS - just distraction. For me and this dog, the second method was 100% successful. From a dog who was lunging with intent to a dog who happily walks into a classroom and trial area full of other dogs with no negativity (head up, tail wagging, greeting other dogs when permitted, training for the Open ring is going exceedingly well) in less than 10 months. I began training my Rottie mix (at 7 years old, mind you) using positive reinforcement as opposed to correction training; with her I've had a happy, bouncing, playful dog in the ring who has earned 2 titles with 3 placements along the way: much better record than any of my previously trained dogs who were trained "old style". For me it's a no-brainer: I'll never go back to old school methods.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Right, LeeAnn!

It has to do with building confidence and strengthening the bond you share. Compulsion doesn't do that and in a dog with reactive issues just doesn't get it. Most dogs react out of fear, not because they are so confident they think they can win a fight with every dog they come across.

So far, I really haven't heard of any dogs that overcome their reactivity with collar pops and heavy handed compulsion. But there are trainers that will tell me otherwise, I'm sure.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/behavior/trainingArticle.pdf

I think that is the full article. Very interesting! Thanks Lauri.

LeeAnn - that's neat. I can't remember if you outlined some of the things you did in another post or not?


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

It sounds too me like everyone is busy telling the OP what the trainer taught her is wrong, while the OP continues with updates of improvements in the dog's behavior.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

With a reactive dog, quick fixes sometimes backfire....I'll wait for a few months before thinking the training has had success. Slow is usually better for these types. It can't be done in a week or two.


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## 2manyqs (May 1, 2011)

Quick update, I've abandoned the corrections based upon all of the research both on this site and in some books by dog behaviorists. We're still focusing on self-control with sit/stay, distance, etc and the behavior is still there. I've also been working on loose leash walking which is really helping in terms of her paying attention to me. She still completely loses focus when she gets in the zone, but through careful walking routes, I've been able to avoid some close calls.

Fundamentally, she seems not so much aggressive as frustrated. Granted, it's hard to tell this sometimes. I have a consultation with a local dog behaviorist/trainer tomorrow who doesn't use treats but does use positive reinforcements. I'm looking forward to what he has to say as her behavior has gotten rather extreme here at home even when not on walks (hearing dogs outside or seeing them from the patio will send her into a full blown attack.) 

While waiting for our session, I've just done a lot of avoidance of situations that would cause the overexcitement. She's isolating herself with her own behavior and I want to get out of this cycle as soon as we can, but in a more positive way.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sounds like a good plan, I hope you will keep updating the progress. It will help others that are in similar situations. Wish you luck with the new behaviorist!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

this training tecnique would vary from dog to dog all depending on the problem and the temperament........i think a combo of things could work here....definitely more focus, nothing wrong with a quick pop for a leave it type thing, but i also think reward for leaving it and re-focusing, would be a nice addition............teaching appropriate behavior can be a long process figuring out just what works best for the individual.......the CAT method (constructive aggression treatment) can also work, and there are many variations of this....


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## 2manyqs (May 1, 2011)

I met with the trainer today and really like his style (Tom Steinbacher.) Alas, he agreed with my assessment that Riley's temperament just doesn't fit with urban living. He said that I could work with him on trainer her, but that the overstimulation (and stress that goes with it) would be a long and hard road to work through. Frankly, I'd rather have her in a rural environment that meshes well with her more high-focus, high-prey mindset rather than put her (and me) through years and years of trying to harness it.

As such, I've decided to re-home her. I'm going to be working through the local GSD Rescue and he's going to put out a few feelers and post her photo on his website for me.


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