# Missouri Dog Fighting Raid July 2009



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I'm not sure if this video has been posted before but I think ANYONE that wants to ban Pit Bulls should watch this.

It shows the dogs TRUE temperaments and personalities. Chained, starved, used in fights - these dogs respond to the Officers with lashing tails and tongues. They grab at the Officers with their legs, trying to hold on and get more affection.

The only dog that bares her teeth is Fay, seen around the 1:00 minute mark. She has no choice - her lips are gone, presumably torn off during a fight.

Even though they have suffered all this at the hands of man - they still crave attention from man.

We should learn a lesson from THEM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL_6Dr8uy5w


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

They are trying hard to ban them in areas near me. 

Because of idiots who fight dogs like these. You can see all that they have been through. Some with missing legs, and still made to be on log chains.
















They all looked like sweethearts. But they will be put down, because of how they were taught to react to other dogs.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I know at least one of the 'dogfighting busts' was a good owner... But this is just sad...

I will say, a 'proper' dogfighter won't cause the breed any anguish, because he isn't out flaunting his dogs or letting them run amok. It's the idiots individual owners... The ones getting the dogs to look tough, or the street level fighters who match any dog against any dog... And most bulldogs will end up DA, and reactive, but responsible owners know how to handle it and you won't see one of their dogs on the news, but if given the chance their dog would rip the head off of another. And the chains they have are pretty normal, it's what's needed for a bulldog, when they hit the end of their chain, any weak link to end in a bad yard accident, or even death of another dog.. The people I know who do not have a thing to do with matching, mostly weight pulling and shows, use the same chains. Not saying I like anything to do with dogfighting, I'm just putting it out there


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove a 'proper' dogfighter


There is no such thing.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveNot saying I like anything to do with dogfighting, I'm just putting it out there


She knows a bit about the sport, I do too. I certainly don't condone it but it's there. Even in RI and Mass where it's been illegal for ever.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Sport? 

I am confused Jenn. This is labeled as a sport? 

Not being snarky at all. I am baffled. This is....I am searching for words....barbaric, terrible, aweful, thing that people train dogs to do. 

It is UNACCEPTABLE. And completely against the law. Not tolerated, any where that I know of. 

Am I wrong? 

Is there really a place where people do this PROPERLY? How could you do this properly??? I am very confused. I just ignored the APBTlove post, I thought they were a CVK, and just did not want to start a back and forth. 

I come to this board for education. If this tolerated some where I want to know. That would be insane to me.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I guess sport as much as NASCAR is considered a sport - more of a competition.

You asked what I know, that's about it. Not my thing but what am I going to do with knowledge about it? Just another bunch of freaks in the city.

Back in the day, a friend of a friend used to breed them for hells angels who fought them up in lynn ma (lowell/laurence maybe?). He was quite impressed with a new bitch he'd bought and regaled me with tales of her victories - after I asked why her face was all stitched up.

Around here, I've had some young scruffy looking guys bring it up with me - one wanted his pit to fight my Morgan I looked at him like hello, I don't think so. Then I complained to his boss, never saw him again.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveI know at least one of the 'dogfighting busts' was a good owner


A good owner that fights dogs?











> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveI will say, a 'proper' dogfighter won't cause the breed any anguish,










They cause anguish to all dogs by doing what they do.

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying, but it sounds to me like you're ok with what these people do


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaI guess sport as much as NASCAR is considered a sport - more of a competition.


I think if you call dog fighting a sport or a competition you've not fully taken to heart what dog fighting does to dogs.

There is no "sport" in dog fighting


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: APBTLoveI know at least one of the 'dogfighting busts' was a good owner
> ...


I'm confused too. A 'proper dogfighter'???? Dog fighting is illegal. Its cruel and its wrong.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveI know at least one of the 'dogfighting busts' was a good owner... ......
> 
> I will say, a 'proper' dogfighter won't cause the breed any anguish, because he isn't out flaunting his dogs or letting them run amok.......but responsible owners know how to handle it and you won't see one of their dogs on the news, but if given the chance their dog would rip the head off of another. And the chains they have are pretty normal, it's what's needed for a bulldog, when they hit the end of their chain, any weak link to end in a bad yard accident, or even death of another dog.. ......


Am I the only one that just can't wrap my brain around this post?!?!?!?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: APBTLoveI know at least one of the 'dogfighting busts' was a good owner... ......
> ...


No, you're not the only one. I read it several times because I kept thinking it can't really say what it seems to say......


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I read it a couple of hours ago .... walked away .... and it still is upsetting that someone here on this board believes there are good dogfighters. We have all got to be reading this wrong!


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I've read it a dozen times TJ................


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Holy crap no!
I am educated fairly well in dogfighting because I hate it... If I had my way to breed would have never been developed. What I was trying to say is so may people are labeled as dog fighters because they have break sticks, many dogs chained on a yard, and they happen to be pit bull dogs.

By 'proper' (said with these guys " ' ' " ) was the old time dogfighters. They didn't go flaunting their dogs and causing the BREED problems, they actually retired their dogs as pets, they didn't torture and hurt their dogs to make them mean, and let it attack other animals. I never said they weren't physically hurting the dogs, it's they didn't allow them to end up in a situation that would just add to the pit bull hype. They were still cruel bastards though, for what they did to their dogs. 

'Proper' means they keep their dogs secure, healthy, and well cared for.. Other than torturing them for 'sport'. I never said it was right, you'd have to do a lot of research that I have to understand the things I've said. 

In order to hate something you have got to have a good understanding of it. I've seen good people who would never let their LOVED dogs near a fighting pit have their dogs taken and killed as fighters... The idiot in the news article above was what you would call a street level dogfighter pretty much, his dogs are treated like trash, starving, missing limbs, and still being kept on the yard. Which is what brought up the term 'proper'. 

And the people saying things about the chains, I wouldn't use one on my dogs, but that is what is needed if you are going to keep a bulldog outdoors, especially with other dogs nearby, all it takes is for one to rush the chain and break a link for you to lose dogs. And it's not even a rule simply for illegal purposes, many people I know for a fact are not using their dogs for fighting use chain spots, because it's the easiest and safest way to keep numerous dogs of this breed, but the minds of uneducated (in dogfighting) people dart to fighting and cruelty. 

Though I think I've summed it up in my post, though it was hasty because it's obvious I made a mistake and I freaked out a bit and posted fast, let me say this:

I HATE and CONDEMN dogfighters. I would rather we did not have my favorite breed today if it would spare them the amazing cruelty they go through.

I know a LOT about dogfighting in general because I browse, and even joined a few forums who obviously don't have an issue with making your dogs rip each other to shreds. I even learned some from watching Off The Chain. Reading old stories from some of the widest known dogfighters. I learn as much as I can about things I dislike because it does no good to hate something and be ignorant about it. I also know a heck of a lot about politicians I dislike.

If I did not have a problem with dogfighting, why did I euthanize my pit bull to keep her from falling into the wrong hands when I could not keep her from DA and HA? I didn't ever want to see her fighting.

They call it 'matching', and a game or sport on a lot of other places, and the bad habit has caught up with me from spending so much time with it. 

I would no more support dog fighting than I would rape or killing kids. It is pointless, cruel, and barbaric. But as much as I despise it, I try to educate others in it, so they don't look like fools when they come upon someone who is into it. 

The dogfighting 'bust' that was a good owner has some good proof, he has SEVERAL videos that can be viewed on youtube of his dogs, and it goes to show how wrong the HSUS and ASPCA can be, his dogs were well cared for, clean, in good shape, had shelter, water, and food, and while he went to all of the chain spots to video tape, he was accompanied by a cattle dog who went to all of the pit bulls and they responded well.

I will post more, but J is running like a bull with my binder. 

I can say, your response to my badly worded post has confirmed why I like this place better... If I were to say something bad about dogmen and fighting on my other forums, I'd get the same response of outrage.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Ugh... The thought of all of this has made bile rise. 

I think I would have rushed to the same conclusion you guys did before I educated myself on dogfighting. Even the members on the other forums I'm on who dislike dogfighting with everything they have know a LOT about it.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaI guess sport as much as NASCAR is considered a sport - more of a competition.
> ...


Sport is just a classification and I was trying to clarify why it's considered that.

It's disgusting and what's even more disgusting is that they've developed this breed that's loyal and family loving but wants to kill other dogs. 

My neighbor up the street has a 2 year old male. I cross the street so I don't take the chance he's ripped out another screen and will come attack my dogs. He clearly wants to. Yet he lives happily with a family - who should walk him longer and further than they do once in a while.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Exactly, it's sad. I had no idea just how different they were when it came to dogs when I got mine, and it ended in heartache. Most every pit type dog I see around here shouldn't be owned by the people who have them. There is good reason they are kept on chain spots and/or secured by responsible mutli-pit homes. They can't get off of a thick, well cared for chain. But a storm door or open window won't count for crap when a DA pit sees old fluffy walking down them road... next thing you know there is a bloodbath and it's on the news.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Well this family shouldn't have this dog becuase they do not control him. He has a kennel with a roof but why is he always sitting on the deck that's 2 feet above the level of their fence - which looks about 6 feet. When I saw he'd broken out the screen, I told his owner (she's aobut 22 and has a 2 year old) and she was like 'Oh my mother is not going to be happy'. She's good with her dogs but she never excersices him from what I can see - if she's out with the dog, the kid is with her and he's really loud.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Still trying to understand you. Think I got it. 

I guess it is just enough to know you do not think it is OK. 

If I were to take the time to educate myself. 
I feel I have through ASPCA. What the dog fighters (the people that do this to the dogs), have to say I am really not intereted in. I would only want to join their sites or talk to them, to help BUST them. Maybe that is what you are doing....

To my understanding a Pit bull or a bull dog that has been raised in a healthy family home, and not fought, does not need to be on a log chain or any chain for that matter, and is not dangerous to other dogs at all. 

I disagree with dogs being kept on chains period. But my statement above about chains, was the 3 legged dog that was on one, that was heartbreaking, it all is very heartbreaking. 

A dog that was once protrayed on the "Little Rascels" is now being trained to kill other dogs, it is horrible and I am glad we all agree on that.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Actually, not to start a debate, but a bulldog, meaning pit bull type, raised in any way is going to be prone to DA. I raised mine as a loving dog, went to all kind of trouble with socializing, and she still went insane on several dogs. If you do some reading on bully forums you'll find out that is the norm for this breed. The adore people, but dogs are another story, they can go from playing to latched onto each other's throats in seconds even if they've never had a scrap before. So many people learn this the hard way. 

And he ASPCA and the HSUS are he ones making busts on people who are not actually fighting. They took this man's dogs away from his kids and held them for months, finally he won and they gave them back to him- in bad condition. If anyone wants to see the vids message me, but there is language in some of them so I won't post. They are sort of in league with PETA in my book. the ASPCA and the HSUS don't have anything to do with local SPCA's pr Humane Societies though, so don't get me wrong. 

THAT Was sad, and she should have been a house pet, both of them without legs.. 

An interesting tidbit, I never knew this until recently, one of the Petey's was bred directly from GR. CH. Tudor's Black Jack.
http://webzoom.freewebs.com/rockcreekkennels/grchtudorsblackjack16xw.jpg

I wish I knew all I know now before I adopted my bulldog, not a day goes by that I don't lose myself over her, because I believed it was how they're raised, even though I'd seen several indications DA isn't how they're raised, it's like trying to raise herding out of a border collie.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I am battling DA (this means Dog aggression right?), with my Shadow (GSD), because he was attacked by 2 off leash pit bull mixes in our neighborhood (he is fine, was not hurt). 

Now he sees off leash dogs as a threat, it was a major change in him, never shown DA before. He is improving though, me too, scared me to death! 

BUT STILL....I am for Pits. I do not want them banned, they are in parts of KS, and MO. Not in my city. 

I have ALWAYS blammed, people, owners. If what you are saying is true, it is to bred into them...and they do not stand a chance of being adopted into homes with other dogs. 
This is hard to believe, every dog is different. 

I thought they needed to be taught and trained to have DA. 

I maybe wrong. I do not want a debate. I just feel that is to blanket of a statement. Or do you think they should be banned? Is that how you feel? That is another topic, really. I am just curious. You owned one.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove it's like trying to raise herding out of a border collie.


But I know plenty of BCs that don't have an OUNCE of herding instinct.

It's the BREEDERS - breeding dogs that show DA - that cause the problems. If they stopped using those dogs for breeding the breed would eventually loose it's DA traits.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I feel that they should need a proper owner, and that in order to own one you should be able to prove that you can handle one. But then that itself is BSL, so no, I would not want them banned or governed, because it's just one step closer to banning.. I adore this breed very much, I just wish DA wasn't part of them. The relatively new breed known as an American Bully is trying very hard to take DA out of it, and having little success, people who own them say it's a hit and miss, you might end up with a dog like a normal dog who missed the DA genes, or you might end up with a dog like this: http://www.freewebs.com/legendarybulldog/sol_boy.jpg with DA. People try very hard, the good owners, to raise them perfectly, tons of socialization, but once one turns on, it's hard to get it under control, but not impossible in most cases. 

I know of a few people (whom I would call good owners) who have given up on trying to help their dogs with DA, because it's too much, all they can do is keep the dogs secure and out of a situation that could arouse the DA. 

Read this, even just the first page, but it should help clear things up a little
http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=13984

I'm going off of my experience with 100's of these dogs (working with shelters, not all mine lol), and the experiences of hundreds of other pit bull owners on forums. A lot of times a bulldog (what bully people call pits and other bulldog breeds) won't show an ounce of DA until they are sexually mature, and when they do it's what they call 'turning on', or the dog getting 'hot'. This is why dogmen don't really put them 'in the box' until they're at least two.

I have come across one adult bitch who was very good with others, I don't know what she would do if engaged, but she rolled over when mine approached her and stayed that way until mine left her alone. And a lot of immature pits are great with others, even adults can be. I'm not saying these dogs are hardcore DA 24/7, it's a hard to explain. And have you ever seen a pit bull dog fight? It is one of the most vicious things I've ever seen, the ONLY upside to having a pit fight breaking out is most will never turn on the human separating them.

I know that, I just want to throttle the breeders on my forums who might not be fighting their dogs, but have dogs from those lines, and are breeding them to tested dogs, all in the name of 'gameness'. COME ON. All that means is they can handle a lot of pain, but it also contributes to the severe DA. 

I have to say, if DA wasn't part of this breed, they'd be the perfect dog... It is extremely sad that some people are actually breeding for human aggression.. Whereas someone on my forum said he's blown the brains out of dogs who've shown HA (human aggression). 


I won't get into the big sad sob story, but I loved my girl so much that having to make the decision broke me, and I put EVERYTHING I could into finding out everything about this breed, and how to stop dogfighting, or at least make it harder to keep under wraps. I am not trying to make this dog out to be a vicious beast, they need an owner who understands them, and knows they have to make certain choices with them (I.E Might not be the perfect dog for you if you want one to go hang with your friend's dogs). I get sick to my stomach when I think that I left mine in an unlocked crate once, it was shut, but no lock, with my little one running loose. I am 100% positive she would have killed her if I hadn't been there to get her off.

Again, I am not saying these are bad dogs, I will have more when I can handle them, I don't post these often because I hate looking at them (I haven't even gone to get the pic from PB and I'm crying like a baby), I failed her because I did not educate myself... I may have given her an extra year, but I just feel like I failed her in every way. 








In that sweet picture, she was separated from the other dogs, because if the little one was on the floor, she'd be on top of her if given an inch, and it would be a bloodbath on sight with the big one. You don't see it in that picture, her eyes would go wild and blank, she didn't hear you, she didn't feel you, she was in the zone, when she was turned on she wasn't my dog, she was out of control, you would need to physically pry her mouth open, and she would not even look at you until a half hour or so after a fight, she was wild. Whereas separating my other dogs is a manner of grabbing one, shoving the other away and yelling at him or her, while both look like they want to ignore you but don't, and eventually listen.

In this soulful, beautiful picture of her, she'd already zoned me out about five times and torn holes into other dogs who didn't do anything to warrant it.









If I had never gotten her, if I hadn't lost her, I wouldn't know anything about this breed. Fate is cruel, she came busting out of her cage as we walking into the shelter, if she hadn't I wouldn't have noticed her. I guess everything happens for a reason, though. 


I'm very sorry for the long posts, but I am very passionate about this topic. I only added the pictures so you could see the soul who was put to an end over an uneducated owner.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

And a couple of reasons not to trust the HSUS
http://www.vidoosh.tv/play.php?vid=4360

If you want to donate somewhere, donate directly to your local shelters. 

HOW TO SPOT A DOGFIGHTER
http://www.hsus.org/acf/fighting/dogfight/what_you_can_do.html
How to Spot Signs of Dogfighting in Your Community



> Quote:How to Spot Signs of Dogfighting in Your Community
> 
> * An inordinate number of pit bulls being kept in one location, especially multiple dogs who are chained and seem unsocialized.
> * Dogs with scars on their faces, front legs, and stifle area (hind end and thighs).
> ...


If you have more pits than you neighbors... You might be a dog fighter.
If your dogs have scars, form scraps or other accidents..... You might be a dog fighter.
If you own a break stick, as all bulldog owners should... you might be a dog fighter.
If you use equipment to exercise your dogs.... you might be a dog fighter.
If you have more company than usual... you might be a dog fighter.

That list gives off the wrong impression. If mills were not so expensive I'd have one, great for rainy days or if you are conditioning for anything. If I had a break stick in some of the fights it would have saved a lot of trauma, physical and mental. I HAVE springpoles. Homemade, the little one and the GS's love it. I have people coming and going often, though I doubt any of them look suspicious rather than ditzy... LOL All of my dogs have scars, so do I! I probably have more than they do. If mine had short hair they'd be fighters, eh? Well technically they could be classified as that, seeing as most of their scars come from scraps. 

Most everyone I know who work their bulldogs - meaning agility(though it is controversial with the breed, since they could lose interest fast in working if a couple of dogs were to get into it outside of the track), weight pull, and other bulldogy sports - have their dogs chained at some time of the day, they have food, shelter and water at all times, unless they're being conditioned, in which they're not allowed to gorge whenever they like, they get off the chains to go running and play, they come inside. Using actual kennels really doesn't work with them. Someone on a forum I won't go back on soon because it ticks me off posted about his female. Said he came home to find out she'd torn her kennel wall out, went into another kennel and gotten in a fight, somehow got out of the kennel and his two yard dogs (dobermans) got ahold of her and tore her to pieces, and when he got back she wasn't even fighting them, but was wandering around the yard a bloody mess. He posted because he was worried that having had her butt handed to her so well she was 'ruined'.

So if you are going to own multiple dogs, chaining is easiest and safest.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

Regarding APBT's, what they are and will become, is predetermined in the womb. If a APBT is going to be a manbiter, it has already been predetermined.
99.9% of the public, and this includes the so called experts from the HSUS, BYB's, Thugs who learned all they know about the APBT from the Media Monster and all the falsehoods that are printed.

The original trait the APBT was bred for was Gameness.
Gameness, has noting what so ever to do with aggression.
Throughout history, the vast majority of game dogs could have not been forced to bite a human under any circumstances. It would not matter how they were raised or cared for.

There are now, and have been, Game dogs that have never turned on, or been in a situation where they had to. These dogs will play with other non aggressive dogs and can live a peaceful and uneventful life.

Most of these Fight Crazy, BYB Specials, are not even remotely Game. They may however kill a child. Their owners and breeders who multiply as we speak, know nothing about the breed. As a rule they are idiots who believe every falsehood printed. This New Era Idiot has begun a whole New Type owner of a Once Great Breed.
These Clowns would have no idea of bloodlines, or how to read a ped. They brag on Cur and







Bloodlines. They breed for color and certain looks. 

The APBT breed is all but ruined. It is in a very sad state.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank you for the lovely post, glad I'm not the only on here who understands some of this breed... 

But if you go ask a lot of people, the only way 'game' can be tested is through matching... You could have a dog from game lines, but it might not be game. According to someone -whom I believe to be involved in some dodgy things with his dogs- I've spoken with game is the willingness to keep going, even though they're being injured badly. Dead Game is what it sounds like, dogs willing to keep going until they're going to die. I think they ought change the meaning of 'game'. Though it would be an improper way to imply the word, I'd say any dog who can pull 1000's of lbs is pretty game.
http://www.riospitbull.com/new_page_7.htm

And yeah, I've heard dogmen comment that they are lucky to get one dog out a litter that will be a CH.



But as I've said, I would rather hear from a person who dislikes and wouldn't own the breed than an ignorant owner who thinks they're labs in a muscular body. 

They are a trend right now. When walking about .05 miles on a busy road a few days ago we passed four bulldogs. One was running 50' in front of his owner off lead, one stopped to sniff something and the owner kicked it in the face, and the other two were being hauled around like vicious beasts, owners jerking them around when they got near people to act like the dog was trying to get at them. I spoke to one of the owners, the one with the dog off lead, he was obviously a mix, but looked enough like a pit to be on the news. He said it was a pure bred, 8 months old, and was up for stud... Faking ignorance I asked what kind of dog he was, if he bites ect. and he said yeah, his bitten once or twice, and he's a english pit bull. Goodie. Breeding mutt manbiters. 


I guess this is sort of off topic, though we are discussing dogfighting and the breed in question, so sorry about that.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

It is not acceptable to modern society, but the Truth is, the only way gameness can be proven or tested IS by fighting. 
The dog would have to be put at a big disadvantage. One can only test Gameness be it in dog, horse or man, when they are put behind. 

There is a girl who wrote a book on the APBT. She just doesn't and can't understand what Gameness is.
A dog would have to be fought and put way, way behind to test or prove gameness.
Having said that, there are and have been Game dogs who were never tested or proven Game. As I mentioned earlier, these dogs have never and will never have a tooth in them.
They are Game dogs, just not PROVEN Game.

Most of these Super HOT (dog aggressive) foaming at the mouth at the sight of another animal media Pits. Would fold like a cheap suit against a Game dog.

It's not a secret. The APBT was bred to be a fighting dog. Gameness was and is the most important trait.
Through years and years of selective breeding and culling, what was produced, was a all purpose dog. It was a dog that was loyal and gentle to a fault to humans. It was a dog who in some cases would never turn on(become dog aggressive) unless provoked.

Gameness, is something that can't be put into a dog. A dog is either Game or not. It is a very rare trait. Gameness, is determined in the womb. Gameness can be measured and tested, but NO WAY can it be bestowed.

If a Game dog is never fought, he is no less Game just never tested or proven. That's where the media and this new era Idiot missed the boat. What matters is the ped and the ancestors.
Some Game dogs were and are, the most gentle dogs one could find. 

I mean who really gives a care whether their pet is Game or not?
Because a Pit is off the charts dog aggressive or human aggressive means nothing other than it needs to be contained and measures need to be taken to see it is confined.

*Gameness* means, one must be willing to boldly fulfill any incessant desire the magnetism of which is so intense that it overtakes every fiber of his existence. There is neither an obstacle substantial enough nor a distraction powerful enough to justify a cessation of the journey. The only legitimate impediment is death itself. One’s persistence must not subside until his deed is complete or until his final breath has exited his physical body. Then and only then is he entitled to the designation DEAD GAME


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Again, if what I am reading is true. They should be banned? Right?

Did you ever respond to that question. I will look again. 

Not of any fault of their own, just because of what has taken place by idoits with their breeding?? They are to dangerous and unpredictable, even if never fought. 

If what you are saying, both of you...is true, you could not even do a temp test. They would just react on their own..with the "game" trait you are talking about.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Sorry just read back you did respond, you said no....but they need proper owners (so do all dogs, and children for that matter need proper parents too), but that is NOT always guranteed. 

Sorry let me read more, I missed a post apparently.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Great post.

I'd love to have long conversations with you, you know your stuff. I've only been dabbling into this world since April.

I did just remember something about a very well known bulldog or two who won more than most and lived to retire as pets, but the handlers said that you could walk them past another dog without them losing their head, but they knew when it was time to go. 

Try telling all of the idiots of the world what a real game dog is... Someone I talk with frequently has a lab/bully that he flaunts everywhere as a game dog because she has longer legs than he thinks pits should have. How does that make sense? I had someone inform me rather blatantly my dog was likely from Colby lines and would be a CH. I was dumbstruck. How could you say that about a random mutt walking down the road that looks like many others?

Education on this subject is minimal at best for 99.999999% of the population.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986Again, if what I am reading is true. They should be banned? Right?
> 
> Did you ever respond to that question. I will look again.
> 
> ...


Once again the meaning of gameness was entirely missed.
You are speaking about aggression. Gameness has nothing what so ever to do with Aggression.
A dog that reacted in a negative manner to a temperment test, would be an aggressive dog. It would have nothing to do with gameness.

It has not been disproven that The Great Filly "Eight Belles" finished the last leg of the Kentucky Derby on broken legs.
This is GAMENESS! She would not allow anything nor any physical pain, whether from burning, bleeding, lungs or broken limbs stop her from what she was bred to do.
This comes from breeding. At the point of her greatest pain, every game ancestor in her pedigree told her to continue.

The great majority of Game dogs would pass ANY temperment test with flying colors. First, they adore humans and any contact with a human is paradise to them. Second, they can tolerate pain and harrassment from a human more than any other animal.
There is nothing about any temperment test where Gameness would come into play.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I am not talking about them passing a temp test. They would pass it. I am saying you could not test for Gameness. 

Which I am understanding the meaning. You are saying a pit's gameness is to Kill other dogs. That is aggression, in the worst way. 

If someone were to adopt a dog from a bully breed rescue, they (the gen public) or the rescue for that matter has no way of knowing if a dog has this or not. 

That in my opion is dangerous, if everything you two are talking about is true. 

I am going to an event tommorrow, I know the bully breed rescue in my area will be there, you can guaruntee I will be asking questions about this, btw there will be 100's of other dogs there, with those rescued pits. 

I am not trying to be snarky or debate, just people know I love dogs, and ask me stuff. I want to know how to direct them as far as dog adoption. 

I will read this thread over...again.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986I am not talking about them passing a temp test. They would pass it. I am saying you could not test for Gameness.
> 
> Which I am understanding the meaning. You are saying a pit's gameness is to Kill other dogs. That is aggression, in the worst way.


lol Once again the meaning of Gameness has been misunderstood.
Why would you want or need to test a dog's Gameness?
Gameness, even though a fighting term used for humans and dogs as well, has nothing really to do with killing another.
It HAS to do with the courage to be willing to die, rather than give up.

The ability to kill another dog would have to do with a damaging hard bite, and the wrestling ability and smarts to get to a vital area. Many of the dogs with this ability, are called rough curs and will quit, when they get tired or run into a gamer dog that doesn't fold from their early barnstorming.

If one isn't very familiar and experienced with the breed, it's almost impossible to explain Gameness.
Gameness, whether it be man or dog, isn't about being mean or aggressive or how much damage you can dish out to an opponent.
Gameness is all about COURAGE, and the will to never give up as long as there is breath in one's body. No matter how injured, no matter how tired.

The only analogy I can think of right now is MTV's "Bully Beatdown".
On this program, bullied and abused people contact "Mayhem" Miller lol. He offers the Bully 10K to step in the cage with one of his fighters.
The fighter is like a Game Dog. The Fighter never pushes anyone around in public and is non aggressive.
The Bully is like a BYB Aggressive Cur. Pushes everyone around and is very aggressive.
http://www.mtv.com/ontv/dyn/bully_beatdown/series.jhtml

Most of the Pits alive today have the Great Tudor's Dibo, somewhere in their background. Of course on a very well bred dog,
Dibo may appear as close as the 9th or 10th gen.
On most of the garbage out there, Dibo would be over a 100gens back.

"DIBO" was a cold dog. It means he wouldn't fight. He would play with other dogs and in an open field would escape from an aggressor.
When "DIBO" was placed into a Pit, he did a Jekyll-Hyde and became a Champion Pit Dog. He was a deep Game dog and was a spectacular producer. He produced the Great dogs Tudor's Jeff and Spike.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=9
In the day's of DIBO and maybe another 2 decades, APBT's were mainly bred for Gameness. Very few people even knew what a Pit was if they saw one. One never heard of a Pit biting anyone.
Pits had the image of PETEY of "OUR GANG"
With the coming of the weight pulls and bench shows of the 70's,
came the beginning of the end. A new Fancier emerged. The media created a monster and it fed upon itself.

Dogfighting is cruel. With the Cruel and Insane New Pit Fancier out there, it should be flushed out and Erased with Brutal Punishment.
Something really has to be done with the overbreeding of garbage dogs. If the entire breed has to be outlawed, then so be it.

Good luck finding anyone who Truly knows Pits at a Bully Event lol.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: tuco
> 
> Good luck finding anyone who Truly knows Pits at a Bully Event lol.


I have to agree 100%.. I've seen dogs from I.C.K go to these events... And most of the bully events (not to say there are not good ones, esp. weight pull events are such) are people with American Bullies, or overdone pit bull type dogs with collars studded with 3" spikes. 

Mostly when I speak about these dogs, I speak of today's dogs, and sadly MOST of them today are just plain diluted, almost trashy, put one of those next Dibo.. Dibo... I've read about him, boy what I wouldn't have given to meet him or his offspring. 
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=9
..but I will be going to rescue for mine, too many decent bulldogs sitting on death row, or I'd go to the breeders who are going for the old temperament, and not looks. Dibo was not the prettiest LOL but he was a beautiful dog in many ways.

Dibo must have been one of the dogs I was thinking of, when I said a well known dog and man were able to be around other dogs fine, but was ON when in the box.

I have to thank you, Tuca, you've taught m a few things I was not 100% on. 
And aw, I just looked at your avatar, what a gorgeous pair. Both have the biggest smiles. 

Dogfighting was always brutal, but if you compare what it used to be to what it is today, it's like night and day. Today 90% I'd say of dogfighters (I won't call them dogmen) are street trash, thugs, scum and many more things who are much more vicious to their dogs, than their dogs are in a pit. Though I would rather not have the breed today than see them at what they are now, it will only increase the want for them... and the bad breeding. The lowlifes who have them now will only feel bigger and badder knowing their dogs are illegal. 


Alright, I'm done. Perhaps we should make a thread for the APBT's history and what it's going through today.. But I think it's been exhausted here.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)




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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

Very interesting reading. Thank you both for the education.


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