# Dog Bites Son



## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

I have a 2 1/2 year old male GSD. We got the dog as a puppy and he has never shown any aggressive behavior. Very gentle dog with the wife and two kids, age 4 and 7. We have 2 other dogs and he is low man on the pack order. Kids have played with him, pawed him, hugged, kissed forever with no issues.

Tonight Wes (the dog) was lying on the kitchen floor while I was cleaning up, the two kids come in, lie down next to Wes and are hugging and petting him. A minute later, Wes whips around and nails my son with a bite on the face causing blood. Nice one tooth puncture on the cheek. No idea if my son kneed him somewhere that hurt him. Doubt it was pulling. It happened so fast I don't know if the dog whimpered before the bite as if he got hurt, kitchen sink was running too.

So what is the best way for me to deal with this? Open for ideas. Thanks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Don't let the kids lay down next to him and hug him. Dogs, while they do tolerate a certain amount of that, don't enjoy hugging and kissing the way people do.
Teach your kids to sit next to him and pet him, not lay on or near him and hug/kiss.

Also you may want to have a vet check up because it could indeed be that the dog is painful.

**Also check here http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/

And get the book if you can. "The other end of the Leash".


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Take your dog to the vet and have a full physical done. Its possible your son hit an already hurt spot and your dog reacted. Remind your kids to be gentle with him. Might want to discourage the laying and hugging him especially until you know whats going on.

I hope this was a one time incident and your kids and dog dont have any negative associations with each other. I hope your son is okay.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

get your son some medical attention. You don't want any infection in the face , sinus , eye area .


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

thanks for the info so far. I thought about an injury to the dog and I see nothing as of yet. Maybe he got his privates kneed accidently on something else that just hurt. I hope that is all, the dog has been a lamb so far.

I cleaned the wound with alcohol, hydrogen perox and then some neosporin. I'll take him to the doctor tomorrow morning.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Wes whips around ... Nice one tooth puncture on the cheek.


In my opinion ... 

This was possibly not a bite. Dog could have just jerked his head (possibly was in pain) and caught your son on the face. I've had this happen to me on the face (one tooth) by a pup and another time dog was grabbing at an object and I believe he realized that he was aiming too close to my hand as he then quickly jerked his head sideways thereby getting me with one tooth on the hand.

A nip with skin discoloration or a bite would usually have upper and lower teeth involved. 

In anycase, I would not allow the kids to lay down next to the dog until you have time to evaluate the situation. Also, discourage hugging and kissing at least for now. 

Something also to keep in mind, highest group of victims of bite cases are boys up through the age of 6 with bites on the face. Boys tend to play rougher and louder and even in their hugging are usually more forceful then a little girl tends to be.

In working with children on safety around dogs one of the things we tell them is not to bother a dog that is sleeping or laying down resting. (Dog could be sick or hurting if laying down vrs. interacting with the kids.) If the child wants to play with the dog then they need to call the dog to them.


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

ILGHAUS said:


> In my opinion ...
> 
> This was possibly not a bite. Dog could have just jerked his head (possibly was in pain) and caught your son on the face. I've had this happen to me on the face (one tooth) by a pup and another time dog was grabbing at an object and I believe he realized that he was aiming too close to my hand as he then quickly jerked his head sideways thereby getting me with one tooth on the hand.
> 
> ...


So if I make sure my son does not lay down near the dog and just pets, do I still have a problem that I need to deal with? Anything more I can do? My son did have a small swollen area with a mark below the eye. No puncture, just a very small nick. I can't for the life of me remember what noise the dog made prior to the bite.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I would not dismiss it as "maybe not a bite". I would treat it as a very credible warning that your dog no longer appreciates being hugged by your kids. 
This is common. Did you check out McConnell's site? You need to learn _now_ to interpret body language. Remove your kids, separate the dog (not in a punishing way but more of a "giving him some space right now" manner) when he's displaying body language that indicates he is uncomfortable.
Has he ever growled before, or curled up his lip?

K9 Body Language Please read through this tonight. Or 1st thing tomorrow.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> No puncture, just a very small nick.


That sounds like a tooth grazing the skin. But, of course you need to be concerned in that either the dog or your son(s) or even both may be too rough or else not showing proper manners toward each other. 

I would make sure that both boys had a lesson on proper actions around a dog and that they are both involved in the care of the dog. Have them put the food bowl down, give treats, etc. All of this under your supervision.

Here's a link that you can use to begin a safety review with the boys.
::: Safe and Sound :::

I would also follow through with a vet check and explain to your vet what happened and that you are concerned that there may be a sore area or other problem. Let the vet know that you are just wanting to rule out any medical reasons for what happend.

Now would also be a good time to really work on obedience with the dog and also have the boys work on basic commands with your dog. 

And ... make sure that there is an adult present whenever the dog and the boys are together. Keep an eye and ear open to monitor their actions around each other and work on any problems that you see. If the dog gives any further concern then seperate right away and seek professional help. Don't make excuses for the dog or the boys but watch and evaluate. All could have been nothing but a fluke happening but it should not just be shrugged off either.


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I would not dismiss it as "maybe not a bite". I would treat it as a very credible warning that your dog no longer appreciates being hugged by your kids.
> This is common. Did you check out McConnell's site? You need to learn _now_ to interpret body language. Remove your kids, separate the dog (not in a punishing way but more of a "giving him some space right now" manner) when he's displaying body language that indicates he is uncomfortable.
> Has he ever growled before, or curled up his lip?
> 
> K9 Body Language Please read through this tonight. Or 1st thing tomorrow.


never ever growled or displayed anything but gentleness. 

He has had one odd behavior. If me or the wife wrestle or play hard with my son and my son is laughing or making loud noises while we are playing hard, Wes comes up to my son and starts to nibble my son with his front teeth as if he is nibbling corn on the cob. Has happened twice and I let the dog know this was not allowed. No issues since.

But no, Wes has never showed any signs of anger with the kids. Even with his rubber ball he is very gentle if the kids hold it and he wants it.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Now if you use the link to the examples and answers that I posted I would be sure to only use it as an opening to having a conversation with your sons. It has flaws but I've not seen a better animated clip so far. But it can be the starting point to how the boys should act around their dog and to help them think of things from a dog's point of view. 

Examples: I don't fully agree with all on it such as the friendly dogs in the park. I would never tell children to walk up and pet the dogs while they were tied up even though the owner is standing next to them. In our classes, we tell the children to only pet a dog while the owner is holding the leash and the dog is sitting nicely. There are a few other points such as postion of standing while a tree etc. but that is another thread topic.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That type "biting" (flea biting type biting) is affection and not aggression.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said there is one puncture wound on the cheek, and you said another "nick" or "scratch" is opposing that wound (one on the cheek, one on the jaw or other side of the face?) 
I consider one puncture wound with blood and an obvious tooth mark more than 'just a scratch' or an accident. Dogs can inhibit their bite force, or they can choose not to. Your dog obviously did inhibit _some_. Or your child would still be getting stitched up. 
But the fact there's a puncture wound tells me he didn't completely inhibit it, and this serves as a significant warning. 

In our county, one puncture wound can label a dog a "potentially dangerous dog". More than one is "dangerous". 

When you see the doctor, don't lie about what happened. It may freak you out but they will just want to make sure the dog's rabies vaccine is up to date, and the health department may call to check, then call again in 10 days to make sure the dog is still healthy and not showing symptoms of rabies.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said there is one puncture wound on the cheek, and you said another "nick" or "scratch" is opposing that wound (one on the cheek, one on the jaw or other side of the face?)


I went back and re-read and now am not sure if there was only one mark or two. (I had read it to mean one but am not so sure now after the second reading.)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The first post said puncture wound, that's why I'm confused now LOL


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

ILGHAUS said:


> I went back and re-read and now am not sure if there was only one mark or two. (I had read it to mean one but am not so sure now after the second reading.)


One obvious tooth into skin causing bleeding and swelling. Another area than had no penetration, but a tooth somewhere in the dog's mouth had contact. No toothmark, but contact to cause slight swelling with a very small cut/abrasion the size of a pencil dot.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

So he bit, and bit with intent to injure, but not maim/maul. He was restrained. That said, and I cannot repeat it enough, treat it as a warning. Especially since he did not growl before, he may assert more force next time. It's your job to teach the children to not hug the dog any longer. I'm confident you will, as it seems you do love your dog


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Your dog obviously did inhibit _some_. Or your child would still be getting stitched up.
> But the fact there's a puncture wound tells me he didn't completely inhibit it, and this serves as a significant warning.
> 
> .


The dog very well meant to stop immediately what my son did to him. No warning just "POP". The dog has never had a negative incident with anyone but this was a bad incident and I'm hoping that it never happens again. Should a well trained, well adjusted dog EVER snap or nail a family member even if they get hurt like getting kneed somewhere or an ear pull (no, my kids don't pull ears or tail but accidently stepping could happen)?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Kids have played with him, pawed him, hugged, kissed forever with no issues.


Please discourage and stop your children from doing this and teach them how to interact safely and properly with your dog. Most family dogs will put up with all sorts of shenanigans but that doesn't mean they should have to. Kids shouldn't hang all over the dog, grab them, pull on them, kiss them, etc. 

You mentioned that your dog has never growled or showed anything but gentleness with the children, but are you really sure? Dogs have a wide variety of signals they give and sometimes they're easily missed. 

This site has some video clips of dogs interacting with kids, along with explanations of the behaviors, that you might find interesting.
Videos


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

goat said:


> The dog very well meant to stop immediately what my son did to him. No warning just "POP". The dog has never had a negative incident with anyone but this was a bad incident and I'm hoping that it never happens again. Should a well trained, well adjusted dog EVER snap or nail a family member even if they get hurt like getting kneed somewhere or an ear pull (no, my kids don't pull ears or tail but accidently stepping could happen)?


Dogs are dogs.
Considering all the crap we (we, as in America as a whole) do to them, deliberately or not, it's a wonder people aren't killed daily by them.

Yes and no, to your question. Of course they "shouldn't" (in our opinions) but that's human thinking and they are dogs, and they use dog judgement to make decisions. It's obviously faulty.

But then...I'd never expect any dog to take what kids can dish out and never snarl or growl or lift a lip or even nip.


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> So he bit, and bit with intent to injure, but not maim/maul. He was restrained. That said, and I cannot repeat it enough, treat it as a warning. Especially since he did not growl before, he may assert more force next time. It's your job to teach the children to not hug the dog any longer. I'm confident you will, as it seems you do love your dog


msvette, what would cause a dog to react this way today if he has been hugged and handled millions of times before? All 3 dogs we have are very affectionate and I hate to think we have to start treating Wes with kids gloves. Not that everyone's advice here is not right - meaning tell the kids not to get down all over Wes.

It's just that there has never been an issue so far. I wonder if I had a dog trainer works with Wes and my kids alone, me not present, if that might help.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I cannot say if it's pain or just he's tired of the kids doing those things to him.
Puppies have a "puppy license" that lets them be annoying without getting their heads bitten off by the adult dogs in the vicinity or the home. 
At about 4mos. + the "puppy license" expires and suddenly the puppy is being disciplined for things it got away with before. Because the puppy needs to learn how to interact with other dogs, ultimately, and not drive them insane, the adult dogs began, in their way (which involves growls and nips and "take downs") to teach it "manners". 

It could be your kids' "puppy license" ran out, in the dog's opinion. But the way I see it, the dog was probably waiting for you to correct it. When he saw you weren't, because you missed other signals of his being uncomfortable, he took it upon himself to discipline the child.

Either that, or he is painful and the child hit the painful spot. 

Nobody can really say. Just read the links we all stuck up there and go from there. 
I can't advise trainer or not. But I don't think this is a simple matter of training. 

DO follow NILIF with the dog. Nothing in Life is Free


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

here is a dumb question, is it OK to let a dog lick the kids alot? Wes licks the kids quite a bit. They'll be lying down on the floor watching TV or doing whatever and when the dog gets petted he'll lick the kids.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP you said that you have two other dogs and this "biter" is bottom of the pack. Could be that he has been pushed to the end of his tolerance and snapped , hit the end of his patience. 
Don't just concentrate on the one dog look at the entire dynamics. Maybe this one dog needs private space, private time. Individual training and time and care without competing .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well if you don't mind dog germs all over them


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

OP, in my opinion, a dog should never have any issue with kids who treat the dog right. Especially those kids in the family. I do agree that your dog showed pretty serious control in the warning he issued as it could have been much much worse. That being said, I will tell you that I have two young kids, ages 2 and 4. Neither know a time we havent had a dog in the house. My oldest will hug and pet the dogs. My youngest loves the dogs but is a bit more reserved with them than his sister. 

I have pictures of my kids with my girl Zena. Zena has bad hips but even when my daughter was learning to walk and tripped and landed on Zena pretty hard, Zena did NOTHING. It obviously hurt but she restrained herself and even stood up and waited for my daughter to pull herself back up using Zena. Zena changed my moms opinion of shepherds largely because of how great she was with kids. Zena was adopted with no known previous history. We got extremely lucky with her. 

I was staying with my parents for a couple weeks after my daughter was born and my baby brother was hanging on Zena and pulled her fur a little too hard. My mom was expecting the worst but instead Zena just gently reached around and nudged his hand away from the area he'd pulled. That was the end of it. 

Now that story being shared, had Zena shown ANY kind of reaction other than the one she did, I would have been on the phone first thing in the morning looking for a trainer to work with and a vet to exam her for further pain responses beyond her hips. 

Riley, our male GSD mix, has been known to get snappy. He'd never been socialized with kids until my daughter was born. My younger baby brother (have 2) was learning to crawl when my daughter was born. He made Riley so nervous. Riley didnt understand him. He liked him well enough but from a distance. Riley has since gotten used to kids and even gets excited to see kids when we go outside for a walk. I was very ready to find a trainer for him if his behavior didnt improve or rehome him to someone without kids. 

Riley will be 7 in January and is still with us. Zena has since moved in with my inlaws for her health (east coast is horrible for her ears) and we have Shasta who has been around kids from day one. 

Consult your vet. Work with your kids on safer interactions and being more cautious of your dog and possibly involve a trainer though no trainer that I'm aware of will work with just your dog and the kids with you out of the room. Thats a liability. 

IMO, and people will not agree with me on it, a family dog should be perfectly fine with kids hugging and giving kisses to them as well as the eventual being used as a pillow. IMO that is a dog that is 100% child proof. I dont leave my dogs and kids alone together. thats just common sense but i'm not allowed to leave the room without at least the dogs following me anyway. My kids are dog friendly. They know whats okay with our dogs but they also know dogs outside ours are basically off limits. if one of my dogs were to nip one of the kids, I would try to figure out WHY it happened. I dont blame the dog for acting like a dog. A dog will issue a warning nip to a pup and some dogs view kids as pups in the pack. To fix the issue, you have to know why there is one which is often the hardest to figure out. 

I wish you luck.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I cannot say if it's pain or just he's tired of the kids doing those things to him.
> Puppies have a "puppy license" that lets them be annoying without getting their heads bitten off by the adult dogs in the vicinity or the home.
> At about 4mos. + the "puppy license" expires and suddenly the puppy is being disciplined for things it got away with before. Because the puppy needs to learn how to interact with other dogs, ultimately, and not drive them insane, the adult dogs began, in their way (which involves growls and nips and "take downs") to teach it "manners".
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no ones brought up a couple things I would like to mention,,,first the KITCHEN = Food, maybe a food thing,,could very well could have been an unintentionally bite or whatever you want to call it.. Also, when you take him to the doctors, they are going to ask what happened, by law a doctor HAS to report a dog bite, so expect a visit from your local AC..

I also am in complete agreement, to not allow your kids to 'maul' him...Maybe he (wes) has a painful spot on his body and your son inadvertently connected with it??

So a vet visit might be in order...

Just throwing some stuff out there..


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

This is an excellent article that will help answer some of your questions: How Are Dog Bites Like Tetris?

And this is an excellent blog for families with children and dogs, can't recommend it enough:Family Dogs and growing babies....life, lessons and love!
http://dogsandstorks.blogspot.com/
As much as we humans like to hug, cuddle and show physical affections these things are rather foreign to dogs. In dog language, hugging and the such is actually rude, threatening behavior. Many dogs do learn to tolerate hugging and close contact, some even learn to enjoy it but some can barely tolerate it at all. While you may feel the dog has never shown signs of being uncomfortable with it, it is very easy to miss signs because they are subtle to humans (but would speak volumes to other dogs). 

For example...the puppy in this picture is showing several signs of being uncomfortable with hugging but they would be easily missed by most people when they occur:









This dog is very uncomfortable with hugging:









The signs of stress are head position, body position, stiffened posture, wide "whale" eyes, lip licking.

And a monkey hugging a dog who's less than thrilled:










The photo is from Patricia McConnell's blog:

"*There’s been a lot of hugging* lately, from dear friends expressing love and sympathy after Lassie’s death. And oh, a good hug feels so good, doesn’t it? Thinking of it reminds me of how very differently dogs and people express affection and care, and how hugging is so hard-wired in humans, but not natural to dogs. This photo, that I can’t attribute to any source but has been all over the internet, is a perfect example of the primate propensity to hug (and a dog’s typical reaction). *I must have 50 images* of people hugging dogs in which the person is beaming with happiness and the dog is looking uncomfortable. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions, but they are more rare than I suspect most people realize. (After all, we can’t see a dog’s face when we hug him, now can we?" http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/tag/dog-hugging

The dog in this video is tolerating the child but clearly stressed - yawning, squinty eyes, grazing, licking lips. I doubt the parents are at all aware of how their dog feels about this.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Also, based on the age, your dog is just now reaching his full maturity. We tell training clients that age 3 is really when most GSDs will come into themselves. Your boy is getting to the point that he will tolerate less and less of the "disrespectful" attention. My kids (who are now 20 and 15) have been taught from day one that pawing, mauling, hugging and generally physically hanging on the dogs is a punishable offense in our house. We know if we don't punish that behavior(time out type thing, no playing with dogs for a period) then many dogs eventually will. They will get old enough or frustrated enough to say they've had it. Absolutely no "kissing" on the face or head. I have a friend whose kids both will hold their dog's head by the cheeks and kiss them on the face. I've told her that that is a bite waiting to happen. She finally got a clue and put a stop to it.
As others have stated they will give off signals forever, hoping the humans take a hint, but most have no clue what the clues are. The dogs do NOT generally love it as is evidenced by the post above. My dogs love to be pet, they love belly rubs and chest scratches and they get tons of that, but we never hug or hang over our dogs. I have one female who will get on the bed and burrow her head up behind my neck when she's feeling very affectionate, to me that is her version of a hug and we love that but she initiates it.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I would agree on the training of the children to respect the dogs space. Even our old guy who has been raised with the kids has his limits, as he should he is a living creature. I am sure he WOULD tolerate a lot from my kids, he shouldn't have to. I have always taught my kids we don't hug, hang on, sit on or any variation there of on the dogs. We work consistently on them telling the dog to sit before petting the dog on his chest/ and or belly if he lays down. I know kids love to love on them, but there should be "rules" As far as the kissing, I worked with ours to teach them a "kiss" command, which is them licking on the cheek. My kids know they can say kiss, turn their head sideways and the dog will "kiss" them. As for now, I would up NILF with the dog and make sure your kids are doing it too. No more free pets from the kids, I also have my kids eat a snack in the dogs view before I have them put the dogs food down.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

goat said:


> Should a well trained, well adjusted dog EVER snap or nail a family member even if they get hurt like getting kneed somewhere or an ear pull


We've had 30-page threads with knock-down, drag-out arguments over this issue. Suffice it to say there's not much agreement. 

My viewpoint is that although we love them like our kids, they are animals and all animals will defend themselves if pushed hard enough. All horses kick, all cats scratch, all dogs bite. The only difference is how high is their threshold.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

OH yeah all dogs have a bite threshold. 
I learned that when trying to put a "cone" on a foster dog who'd had eye surgery.
I reached her lower-than-my-dogs threshold and sustained a bite that was entirely my fault. I didn't put her to sleep over it, and she went on to make a nice family pet, and their home had a 6-7yr. old child. I told them about her bite threshold and she's thriving in their home. She did nip at their child when the child was being inappropriate and they had words with their child to make sure it didn't happen again.

Nowadays the trend is "get rid of the dog". It seems, in general (not in this case necessarily) that people are simply unable to tell the child to quit doing something and have it actually work, so the path of least resistance is rehoming the dog, or putting it to sleep, unfortunately.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Emoore said:


> We've had 30-page threads with knock-down, drag-out arguments over this issue. Suffice it to say there's not much agreement.
> 
> My viewpoint is that although we love them like our kids, they are animals and all animals will defend themselves if pushed hard enough. All horses kick, all cats scratch, all dogs bite. The only difference is how high is their threshold.


Like Emoore stated....many opinions. Would I love to think my dogs would NEVER snap at my kids, absolutely...do I feel like testing out that theory? NO. I do my best to keep kids/dogs out of situations that would test it as well. It is only fair to all involved to teach a mutual respect.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> OH yeah all dogs have a bite threshold.
> I learned that when trying to put a "cone" on a foster dog who'd had eye surgery.
> I reached her lower-than-my-dogs threshold and sustained a bite that was entirely my fault. I didn't put her to sleep over it, and she went on to make a nice family pet, and their home had a 6-7yr. old child. I told them about her bite threshold and she's thriving in their home. She did nip at their child when the child was being inappropriate and they had words with their child to make sure it didn't happen again.
> 
> Nowadays the trend is "get rid of the dog". It seems, in general (not in this case necessarily) that people are simply unable to tell the child to quit doing something and have it actually work, so the path of least resistance is rehoming the dog, or putting it to sleep, unfortunately.


I agree there is a threshold. For 9 yrs K has never reached it, so I would like to think he is well adjusted. However before starting his current med, he was having pain issues and there were 2 occasions, I was trying to help him and he snapped his mouth in my direction. Do I feel he is unsafe now? NO I feel like at his age/condition his threshhold is decreasing and it is my job to up his "personal space allotment" in regards to my kids.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

A lot of great advice above, boiling down to:
1. Teach your kids to respect the dog, he is not to be poked, pulled or hugged
2. Take the dog to the vet and look for possible physical problems
3. Take your child to the doctor, make sure his tetanus is up to date
4. Monitor the dog's behavior very closely and keep him away from kids for a while
.......
I wouldn't be surprised if the doctor has to report a dog bite, so there may be some further trials you will have to face with animal control.
Good Luck


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

ok, thanks to all for the input.

regarding signals of being uncomfortable being handled by my kids, it has 100% never happened. I am not much of a trainer when it comes to dogs, but I read them well (ears, face, lips, hair, tail). If Wes showed anything it would have been dealt with.

I had to put a very sweet dog down 4 years ago. I gave him chances but studying his behavior told me he could not be trusted around kids even though he loved them and protected them. Too long for me to post the story.

I agree children should be shown proper behavior around dogs, whether family pets or stranger. And even with pet dogs there should be absolute no no's, but I feel (just my opinion) that laying down and hugging a dog should be tolerated by the dog or the dog is not a "family dog". A family dog should be able to be upstairs with the family's kids (not real small kids) and be trusted. Obviously if a child hurt the dog or was harrassing the dog, I understand there can be a problem. But there has to a be trust of the dog or why have him?

Again, I have no idea why Wes did this. Yes, I'm going to watch him like a hawk. For now, my son will not be allowed to get down in his "mug". THis morning, I brought Wes in after breakfast and had my son come down. Son was not afraid, came up to Wes and petted and everything was fine, even a quick lick.

A few minutes later, Wes was on the floor and I had my son come up and pet him again. Wes rolled onto his back and my son petted his stomach while Wes rolled around on his back and made soft grunts.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

bocron said:


> Also,* based on the age, your dog is just now reaching his full maturity*. We tell training clients that age 3 is really when most GSDs will come into themselves. Your boy is getting to the point that *he will tolerate less and less of the "disrespectful" attention*. My kids (who are now 20 and 15) have been taught from day one that pawing, mauling, hugging and generally physically hanging on the dogs is a punishable offense in our house. We know if we don't punish that behavior(time out type thing, no playing with dogs for a period) then many dogs eventually will. They will get old enough or frustrated enough to say they've had it. Absolutely no "kissing" on the face or head. I have a friend whose kids both will hold their dog's head by the cheeks and kiss them on the face. I've told her that that is a bite waiting to happen. She finally got a clue and put a stop to it.
> As others have stated they will give off signals forever, hoping the humans take a hint, but most have no clue what the clues are. The dogs do NOT generally love it as is evidenced by the post above. My dogs love to be pet, they love belly rubs and chest scratches and they get tons of that, but we never hug or hang over our dogs. I have one female who will get on the bed and burrow her head up behind my neck when she's feeling very affectionate, to me that is her version of a hug and we love that but she initiates it.


DITTO. 
The maturity issue is what I was thinking as soon as I saw how old he is. 
He may have been giving signals and no one understood. I hope it was an accident, but now you will be watching so hopefully this sort of thing will never happen again.


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

Emoore said:


> The only difference is how high is their threshold.


I think that is a good point. My other two dogs have had injuries. Molly our flat coat retriever is a tough old girl. We got her third hand and somebody abused her pretty bad. She is the sweetest loving dog and DOES love to be hugged and cuddled, she actually demands it. If she gets cuts and/or wounds , I can treat her with sprays and ointments, she is fine. She allows (doesn't like) first aid care.

Mel, our chocolate lab showed up on our 30 acres one day while we were outside cutting wood. He was a young pup who was let go (no collar, no report of missing to local vets, dog pound, law, etc). Didn't want another dog but we took him in. He to will jam himself up to you lying down and likes being hugged - he'll sleep on you being hugged. A real gentle bull strong dog. He blew out a knee and I know it was painful but never had issues being touched by the kids during the healing. He got a tick disease and felt terrible for a week but around the kids was fine.

Now Wes ripped his thumb nail running in the woods one day. He did not want me to treat it. Trying to get him to let wife and I clean the wound was almost impossible. Even the vet had a hard time and he is always good with the vets including getting shots. Maybe his pain threshold is where that any pain and he will over react. Not due to anger, but just STOP IT. Who knows.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

goat said:


> I feel (just my opinion) that laying down and hugging a dog should be tolerated by the dog or the dog is not a "family dog".


But WHY should a dog HAVE to tolerate it? It has been stated over and over in this thread *dogs do not like hugging*. Why would you force such behavior on your dog? Why not simply explain to the children that the dog doesn't like hugging? Demonstrate proper petting techniques, instead?

Obviously a "family dog" should tolerate inappropriate behavior from time to time, but should not be subjected to it on a regular basis.

Do you want your dog to like your kids, or do you want them to think, "Oh NO, here comes that little human who always insists on HUGGING me."


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> But WHY should a dog HAVE to tolerate it? It has been stated over and over in this thread *dogs do not like hugging*. Why would you force such behavior on your dog? Why not simply explain to the children that the dog doesn't like hugging? Demonstrate proper petting techniques, instead?
> 
> Obviously a "family dog" should tolerate inappropriate behavior from time to time, but should not be subjected to it on a regular basis.
> 
> Do you want your dog to like your kids, or do you want them to think, "Oh NO, here comes that little human who always insists on HUGGING me."


I agree our dogs will tolerate accidents. More than once they have tripped over, bumped etc. usually by me though:blush: I don't feel however that they should have to tolerate intentional acts. In fact as Kaos ages he is very weary of our 2 yr old (who has never subjected him to forceful love) so he will remove himself from the situation by leaving his "spot" in the middle of a high traffic room and going to his bed. His bed is off limits to the kids and they know it.....the dogs need somewhere to retreat to when they've had enough.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> But WHY should a dog HAVE to tolerate it? It has been stated over and over in this thread *dogs do not like hugging*. Why would you force such behavior on your dog? Why not simply explain to the children that the dog doesn't like hugging? Demonstrate proper petting techniques, instead?
> 
> Obviously a "family dog" should tolerate inappropriate behavior from time to time, but should not be subjected to it on a regular basis.
> 
> Do you want your dog to like your kids, or do you want them to think, "Oh NO, here comes that little human who always insists on HUGGING me."


Exactly! 
I use this example with training clients;
I HATE HATE HATE to be tickled. I mean it makes me crazy and really annoys me and then pisses me off. I think it goes back to when I was little and a friend's older brother used to think it was hysterical to sit on my stomach and put his knees over my upper arms so I couldn't defend myself and then tickle me until I cried. So even someone coming up and goosing me in the side sends me up a wall. I worked with a guy who discovered this about me and then thought it was funny to tickle me. Finally one day he came up behind me and goosed me, to which I elbowed him as hard as I could in the diaphragm region. Needless to say it worked and he never did it again. So should I have just learned to live with it and allow him to continue because HE enjoyed doing this despite me asking him nicely to refrain, then even yelling at him once or twice? He couldn't read the signals I gave so I found one that worked. 
Your other 2 dogs may tolerate more, ok, well good for them. This dog seems to not enjoy this (assuming you don't find a physical reason) so don't MAKE him tolerate it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

My feelings are...if you need a dog who "enjoys" being hugged, you're going to go through a lot of dogs before you find one that does. 
All dogs are individuals. As a whole, GSDs are better with kids (and even will protect them) than some other breeds, and to insist that, on top of being a guardian for your family, a defender to your children, he "like" being hugged, too, that's just a bit of a stretch.

Enjoy him for who he is, love him for what he does for your family, and teach the kids to not hug him - and if they get nipped, growled at, or even bitten, the first thing you should be asking is, "What did YOU do to the dog!?"


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> My feelings are...if you need a dog who "enjoys" being hugged, you're going to go through a lot of dogs before you find one that does.
> All dogs are individuals. As a whole, GSDs are better with kids (and even will protect them) than some other breeds, and to insist that, on top of being a guardian for your family, a defender to your children, he "like" being hugged, too, that's just a bit of a stretch.
> 
> Enjoy him for who he is, love him for what he does for your family, and teach the kids to not hug him - and if they get nipped, growled at, or even bitten, the first thing you should be asking is, "What did YOU do to the dog!?"


Sounds like the way I was raised...every time I told on the cat for biting or scratching....my mom always said "if you hadn't done (fill in the blank) she wouldn't have to defend herself" I try to teach my children the same, I always tell them they need to be the smarter of the 2 and not expect the dog to reason and analyze. even the best family dogs have instincts


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> But WHY should a dog HAVE to tolerate it? It has been stated over and over in this thread *dogs do not like hugging*. Why would you force such behavior on your dog? Why not simply explain to the children that the dog doesn't like hugging? Demonstrate proper petting techniques, instead?
> 
> Obviously a "family dog" should tolerate inappropriate behavior from time to time, but should not be subjected to it on a regular basis.
> 
> Do you want your dog to like your kids, or do you want them to think, "Oh NO, here comes that little human who always insists on HUGGING me."


 
Not to be argumentative, but how do you or anyone know what an individual dog likes or dislikes other than obvious tormenting or hurting. 

I have had many dogs that are 100% fine with hugging and were for their entire lives. No pulling away, no verbal or facial signs of anger, discomfort etc. In my previous post I pointed out that my 2 other dogs love it. And until last night, Wes never had an issue.

But now that this has happened, yes I'm going to put and end to it with him and continue to look for any signs from him regarding all contact.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

goat said:


> And even with pet dogs there should be absolute no no's, but I feel (just my opinion) that laying down and hugging a dog should be tolerated by the dog or the dog is not a "family dog". A family dog should be able to be upstairs with the family's kids (not real small kids) and be trusted. Obviously if a child hurt the dog or was harrassing the dog, I understand there can be a problem. But there has to a be trust of the dog or why have him?


No one can guarantee that a dog will fit anyones idea of what a family dog should be. They are individual just as humans are.

Lots of people have an idea of what a good husband or wife should be. We all know how well that works. 

I don't know why your dog bit but your dog is what it is regardless of what you think it should be.

Some dogs need to be managed for their whole life. Perhaps because of weak nerve or low threshold or whatever.

I don't think your dog would be all that hard to work with based on all the positive things you have said. It may not be what you want it to be though. 
If a dog does nip or bite once there is always the possibility of it doing it again and it will probably be harsher the next time.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Not to be argumentative, but how do you or anyone know what an individual dog likes or dislikes other than obvious tormenting or hurting.


There is a vast difference between "enjoys" and "tolerates". 
Most dogs tolerate us because they love and respect us. The line blurs a lot when it's kids, especially that have now become "annoying" to the dog".

Since you state he's always tolerated the hugs before, you have a stronger case for a pain response. I'm curious what your vet will say after you visit them.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

goat said:


> Not to be argumentative, but how do you or anyone know what an individual dog likes or dislikes other than obvious tormenting or hurting.
> 
> I have had many dogs that are 100% fine with hugging and were for their entire lives. No pulling away, no verbal or facial signs of anger, discomfort etc. In my previous post I pointed out that my 2 other dogs love it. And until last night, Wes never had an issue.
> 
> But now that this has happened, yes I'm going to put and end to it with him and continue to look for any signs from him regarding all contact.


Hugging and kissing and laying on top of a dog while they're resting goes against every natural dog behavior in the book. Dogs interpret body language very differently than we do. Many dogs, as previously stated, tolerate very well because they understand that we're humans and can be kind of weird. That doesn't mean however that they don't have a threshold. 

I would second many other peoples suggestions to get ahold of a copy of "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell. She is an incredible writer as well as an incredible behaviorist. She describes why dogs don't "love" hugging better than I ever could.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

goat said:


> I have had many dogs that are 100% fine with hugging and were for their entire lives. No pulling away, no verbal or facial signs of anger, discomfort etc.


I am really and truly not trying to be rude or trying to insult you in any way, but if you have had "many" dogs that enjoyed hugging, then I strongly feel that you simply have not been interpreting their very subtle body language appropriately. Dogs that actually enjoy hugging are extremely rare.



sashadog said:


> I would second many other peoples suggestions to get ahold of a copy of "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell. She is an incredible writer as well as an incredible behaviorist. She describes why dogs don't "love" hugging better than I ever could.


THIS! I found a copy at my local library. I feel that it should be passed out to every single dog owner. Shelters/rescues should start giving it away with people who adopt dogs (if only they could afford it!) and good breeders should have it in their contracts for their puppy buyers to read. Another "must read" is "The Art of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller.


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> There is a vast difference between "enjoys" and "tolerates".
> Most dogs tolerate us because they love and respect us. The line blurs a lot when it's kids, especially that have now become "annoying" to the dog".
> 
> Since you state he's always tolerated the hugs before, you have a stronger case for a pain response. I'm curious what your vet will say after you visit them.


msvette, just for the heck of it, here is what I just did. Wes lies down near my computer desk. I go about 5 feet away and lay down on the the floor. Wes gets up and buries his head under my underarm and I hug him. I kneel up and continue. He stays while I pet and hug him tail wagging. I lightly let up hug and his head stays buried. 

My point is if the dog ever showed "hey, this isn't my thing", I'd notice it and make sure the family knew "hey, Wes doesn't like that"

Now that doesn't mean that overly aggressive hugging is cool with him but I didn't see that last night. I've seen my little kids do dumb (not evil or painful) things with all three dogs and I have lit into them to cut it out. I just need to really watch all future activity with Wes.


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I am really and truly not trying to be rude or trying to insult you in any way, but if you have had "many" dogs that enjoyed hugging, then I strongly feel that you simply have not been interpreting their very subtle body language appropriately. Dogs that actually enjoy hugging are extremely rare.
> 
> 
> THIS! I found a copy at my local library. I feel that it should be passed out to every single dog owner. Shelters/rescues should start giving it away with people who adopt dogs (if only they could afford it!) and good breeders should have it in their contracts for their puppy buyers to read. Another "must read" is "The Art of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller.


Rotts n GSD's please look at the post I just wrote regarding Wes. That said, I WILL look at this book. I'm never opposed to reading good info on dog behavior.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

goat said:


> msvette, just for the heck of it, here is what I just did. Wes lies down near my computer desk. I go about 5 feet away and lay down on the the floor. Wes gets up and buries his head under my underarm and I hug him. I kneel up and continue. He stays while I pet and hug him tail wagging. I lightly let up hug and his head stays buried.
> 
> My point is if the dog ever showed "hey, this isn't my thing", I'd notice it and make sure the family knew "hey, Wes doesn't like that"
> 
> Now that doesn't mean that overly aggressive hugging is cool with him but I didn't see that last night. I've seen my little kids do dumb (not evil or painful) things with all three dogs and I have lit into them to cut it out. I just need to really watch all future activity with Wes.


Sounds like a good case of a knee jerk reaction to pain then. There may be something the vet can pinpoint or it may be as simple as a misplaced elbow or knee on your kids part. I don't think anyone here thinks that you are not contientious on the part of your dogs or kids so I would have the vet rule anything out and then since you know his pain tolerance might be low, limit your kids with him. I will throw out there though....he may be more tolerant of you than your kids? Not saying he isn't a good family dog, just something to note.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is completely typical for dogs to put up with us and our human tendencies like hugging and kissing. I've noticed though, my dogs don't enjoy being kissed on the nose. Do they tolerate it? Yes. But do they "like" or "enjoy" it? I doubt it. 
So I don't do it to them. Simple as that. 
Dogs tucking their head into your shoulder or arm, that's a common thing, I've seen before. They do enjoy close human contact that they initiate. But again, as others pointed out, lying on the floor (minding their own business) and having a rambunctious toddler or 3-4 yr. old lying on or near them and having their arms around them is different. 
Did you look at the Dogs/storks sites yet and the McConnell sites? You can see how the signs are quite subtle, the way the dog turns it's head or licks it's lips. Even face licking can be a "leave me alone" depending on how it's being done and what else is going on at the moment. And as for kids, if they can barely tolerate it from us adults, often they won't, from kids.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have and like Patricia McConnells "the other end of the leash". Another good book is "A Modern Dog's Life - how to do the best for your dog" by Paul McGreevy, PhD, MRCVS --recommended by the Chief Veterinary Adviser for the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.
just skimming through it , page 69, he says "....ignore signs that tell us dogs are motivated to keep their distance, and touch dogs in ways that , without qualifying play signals, are down right rude. We stare into dog's eyes, and stand over, reach for and cuddle another. Small wonder then that we push some dogs to defend themselves" I did draw attention to the fact that this is a 3 dog household and that this dog is bottom of the pack . To the casual eye , now quoting McGreevy again "established groups of dogs can give the impression of harmony, but disputes can simmer ... and then boil over". That is the point I was trying to make . Maybe this male had been harrassed or was at the breaking point, he plops down somewhere hoping for his private space , and rest , and along comes happy baby who gets into his space , normally tolerable , but not this time.

Good book. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

mysweetkaos said:


> I will throw out there though....he may be more tolerant of you than your kids? Not saying he isn't a good family dog, just something to note.


Yes, that is true. Since I discipline him, and raised him, he knows I'm alpha and I don't mean that in a macho way.

It probably is true that if something hurt or upset him, he would be more apt to make his point with the kids and not me.


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> dog turns it's head or licks it's lips. Even face licking can be a "leave me alone" depending on how it's being done and what else is going on at the moment. And as for kids, if they can barely tolerate it from us adults, often they won't, from kids.


That could be something there, that's why I asked about licking before.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

goat said:


> Yes, that is true. Since I discipline him, and raised him, he knows I'm alpha and I don't mean that in a macho way.
> 
> It probably is true that if something hurt or upset him, he would be more apt to make his point with the kids and not me.


No I get you don't mean that in a macho way. What I do for what it's worth. As soon as my kids can speak, I teach them sit, off other good to know words. Even my 2 yr old will tell the dogs sit before he pets them. The dogs have no problem listening to the kids.....you don't know how may times my 2 yr old has said "crate" and both dogs go to their crates:crazy: I also hand my kids a small cookie or snack, have them eat it in view of the dogs and then have the kids place the food down with a leave it command, once the dog makes eye contact with the kids (in other words not just staring at the food) they use the release word and let the dog enjoy his meal. Not sure if that's the right way or if everyone would agree....but it works for us. We have a 9 yr old 120 lb GSD and a 8 month 80 lb Mastiff/GSD mix and they both have learned the kids are *above* them so to speak. I can not stress enough though if you know his tolerance may be less as it is getting with our 9 yr old....take the precaution to avoid putting both the dog and the kids in situations that would be detrimental to all.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

goat said:


> msvette, just for the heck of it, here is what I just did. Wes lies down near my computer desk. I go about 5 feet away and lay down on the the floor. Wes gets up and buries his head under my underarm and I hug him. I kneel up and continue. He stays while I pet and hug him tail wagging. I lightly let up hug and his head stays buried.


My Nova actually does this a lot. I think the difference is, he's initiating it. He's done it to me, and to my husband, but I have never seen him do it to anyone else. I do think it falls in the category of "rare" dogs that enjoy this type of behavior, and I don't necessarily put it in the same category as an enthusiastic hug from a child or well meaning adult. 



goat said:


> That could be something there, that's why I asked about licking before.


Yes, that definitely could be something. Often, a submissive dog will demonstrate that it is submissive by licking. In her book, Dr. McConnell describes a situation where her most submissive bitch "stole" a bone from her dominant bitch by belly crawling her way up (demonstrating submission) and then licking her muzzle like crazy until the dominant bitch simply got up and walked away. The submissive bitch was being respectful: demonstrating all signs of submission, but still got what she wanted in the end: the bone.

Your dog could be licking your children to show them submission/respect, and then the dog is confused when the kids still insist in demonstrating a "dominant" behavior: hugging. Hugging to a dog is most often interpreted as a dominant behavior. A dog that insists on displaying a dominant behavior even after a dog has demonstrated submission could be interpreted as being a "bully," and even the most submissive dog could get tired of it. (Just a note, though, that licking isn't always about submission).


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## goat (Jun 19, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Maybe this male had been harrassed or was at the breaking point, he plops down somewhere hoping for his private space , and rest , and along comes happy baby who gets into his space , normally tolerable , but not this time.
> 
> Good book.
> 
> ...


carmspack - thanks for the info. No issues with the pack order. Wes just came to us last. I could write out exactly how the pack order came to be and how things work, but it would be lengthy and you'd just think "I don't want to read all that"


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

alpha shmalfa --"Dr McGreevy offers an exciting new approach to training a dog . By acting as a "life coach" -- rather than an "alpha dog" or "parent" -- and by reimagining "training" as a fun opportunity for you and your dog to grow closer and learn new skills, you can greatly improve your dog's quality of life - and teach good behaviours at the same time".

McGreevy has worked with and studied professionally for over 20 years . He is an associate professior at the U of Sydney's Faculty of Vet Sciences where his focus is behaviour and welfare of dogs and horses......



Carmen
http://www.carmspack.comc


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## GSKnight (Oct 18, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> (Just a note, though, that licking isn't always about submission).


Sometimes the kid just has peanut butter on his face


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

carmspack said:


> alpha shmalfa --"Dr McGreevy offers an exciting new approach to training a dog . By acting as a "life coach" -- rather than an "alpha dog" or "parent" -- and by reimagining "training" as a fun opportunity for you and your dog to grow closer and learn new skills, you can greatly improve your dog's quality of life - and teach good behaviours at the same time".
> 
> Carmen
> http://www.carmspack.comc


That sounds fun and interesting and probably less confrontational. I just wonder if that is what a dog 'wants'. It seems like a bit of anthropomorphizing to think that dogs want to be our pals ... but it could be so. I treat my dog like a pal, although a junior one. She treats me as though I am an amiable parent. She knows her place in the social hierarchy. Maybe the fact that she follows me everywhere is her way of asking, "OK, what's next, coach?"


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

carmspack said:


> alpha shmalfa --"Dr McGreevy offers an exciting new approach to training a dog . By acting as a "life coach" -- rather than an "alpha dog" or "parent" -- and by reimagining "training" as a fun opportunity for you and your dog to grow closer and learn new skills, you can greatly improve your dog's quality of life - and teach good behaviours at the same time".
> 
> McGreevy has worked with and studied professionally for over 20 years . He is an associate professior at the U of Sydney's Faculty of Vet Sciences where his focus is behaviour and welfare of dogs and horses......
> 
> ...


Going on that theory, how would you work the kids into the equation. I posted earlier what I do with my kids...would that be considered "good" or not? Although it has worked for us, if there is a better way I am always open to suggestion. I don't have the kids do these things with the whole *alpha* thought in mind, more so to build the mutual respect between them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It is the very opposite of anthropomorphising -- get the book and see -- everything from the dogs viewpoint .


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> That sounds fun and interesting and probably less confrontational. I just wonder if that is what a dog 'wants'. It seems like a bit of anthropomorphizing to think that dogs want to be our pals ... but it could be so. I treat my dog like a pal, although a junior one. She treats me as though I am an amiable parent. She knows her place in the social hierarchy. Maybe the fact that she follows me everywhere is her way of asking, "OK, what's next, coach?"


PsddyD:

Were you the one who talked about analysis paralysis. 
I loved that . It hapens all the time on here. I'm guilty.
You can't even buy a TV without 100's of opinions and feeling the need to check them all out so you don't screw up.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

goat said:


> That could be something there, that's why I asked about licking before.


This is why you have to learn all the cues and how they are used. Yawning can be done in a combination with a stretch but can also be a sign of stress.
You should be here when I take pics of the dogs. The flash freaks the out and you see gobs and gobs of de-stress signals. Lip licking/nose licking, yawning, turning away, you name it, they do it. LOL


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> PsddyD:
> 
> Were you the one who talked about analysis paralysis.
> I loved that . It hapens all the time on here. I'm guilty.
> You can't even buy a TV without 100's of opinions and feeling the need to check them all out so you don't screw up.


:raises hand: 

:laugh:


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> :raises hand:
> 
> :laugh:


I'm quite guilty as well. My husband always tells me I think too much Better than not at all, I guess. Queen of over analyzing.

Carmen...is the book called Alpha-schmalpha?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Ok...scratch that. I found the book. Thanks look forward to reading it, I want to try the Other end of the leash as well....since it gets recommended so often on here.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

How are things going?


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