# Who bred this dog?



## Decoy93

Elk Von Daechsel came from who? Anyone know anything about that line? Good or bad? Thanks in advance


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## RSharpe75

Working-dog has the breeder down as Dan Waters and Owner as Ralph Gilby


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## LuvShepherds

Decoy93 said:


> Elk Von Daechsel came from who? Anyone know anything about that line? Good or bad? Thanks in advance



Elk von Daechsel


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## Momto2GSDs

Is this the dog?
https://ar.working-dog.com/dogs-details/6139048/Elk-von-Daechsel


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## Ken Clean-Air System

The dog has a CKC registration number, so I'd assume the breeder is in Canada. 

Looks like a sport pedigree to my layman's eyes ... a whole lot of Troll/Fero, among a number of other very well known dogs ... Tom, Mink, etc. 

I'll let other, more knowledgeable folks fill in more info ... kind of interested in what others have to say about this one, actually.


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## wolfstraum

Aggression on top of aggression and more on top of that.....

Lee


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## Decoy93

Mmmm bummer!


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

I have seen this dog trial. Powerful dog who exhibits excellent control.


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## Jax08

What exactly is it you are looking for? You keep asking about different dogs. are you in a club? Are you active in IPO? If so, why aren't you looking at the dogs around you?


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Ralph is very willing to talk dog. If your interested, I would contact him. You can easily find him on FB or through Redline K9.


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## wolfstraum

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> I have seen this dog trial. Powerful dog who exhibits excellent control.


Mr. Gilby is a very experienced trainer who has competed at high levels - I would expect that he would do very very well with this dog.


Lee


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## Sabis mom

wolfstraum said:


> Aggression on top of aggression and more on top of that.....
> 
> Lee



Lee, just curious but can you expand on this if you have time. For some of us who are learning, or looking for stable family pets, it may give aid with what to steer clear of.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Lee, I definitely agree with you.


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## BahCan

The breeder is Dan Waters from Red Deer, Alberta, Canada. If you google him he's pretty easy to find.
The littermate to Elk, Ellis Von Daechsel, is owned by Cassandra from 
hollenhund shepherds if you wanted to find out more about the lines, and i'm sure she could put you in touch with Dan.


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## cliffson1

wolfstraum said:


> Aggression on top of aggression and more on top of that.....
> 
> Lee


I agree with you Lee...big time aggression in the lines. Definitely wouldn’t consider this dog genetically as sport breeding but moreso LE breeding. That doesn’t mean the dog can’t do well in sport, but definitely some strong dogs in this pedigree.
With excellent handler/trainer as it is reputed Mr Gilby is, probably a good dog in sport. But for novice owner, this is lot of dog genetically.


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## wolfstraum

Sabis mom said:


> Lee, just curious but can you expand on this if you have time. For some of us who are learning, or looking for stable family pets, it may give aid with what to steer clear of.


This thread is a classic example of why recommendations should be taken with a large grain - no a salt shaker full of chunky sea - salt!!!

Several of us who are experienced in breeding and have a more than average depth of knowledge see this pedigree for what it is....while a sport person is seeing a very very well trained competition dog - the finished product so to speak! When that is pointed out, it appears that it is considered validation of approval of the dog for a potential buyer (of a puppy by him is my assumption) while it is NOT a validation at all!

The minute a name is mentioned that is in the pedigree - the members with that dog in a pedigree will all jump on the band wagon and shrill - "My dog with XXX is a wonderful happy loving etc etc dog"......which may well be true! There is a spread of qualities and characteristics in every litter.....Personally, what *I *see as the negatives in this litter (3 specific dogs) would make me run the other way for breeding....what do I do with the 2 or 3 pups in the litter who are going to be little demonspawns (not used affectionately here at all). It is a percentage thing - but I don't want to have a puppy on my hands that I cannot place with a good conscience! I see too many nervy, inappropriately aggressive dogs who come out of a litter with pedigrees I feel the same way about.


Lee


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## Sabis mom

wolfstraum said:


> This thread is a classic example of why recommendations should be taken with a large grain - no a salt shaker full of chunky sea - salt!!!
> 
> Several of us who are experienced in breeding and have a more than average depth of knowledge see this pedigree for what it is....while a sport person is seeing a very very well trained competition dog - the finished product so to speak! When that is pointed out, it appears that it is considered validation of approval of the dog for a potential buyer (of a puppy by him is my assumption) while it is NOT a validation at all!
> 
> The minute a name is mentioned that is in the pedigree - the members with that dog in a pedigree will all jump on the band wagon and shrill - "My dog with XXX is a wonderful happy loving etc etc dog"......which may well be true! There is a spread of qualities and characteristics in every litter.....Personally, what *I *see as the negatives in this litter (3 specific dogs) would make me run the other way for breeding....what do I do with the 2 or 3 pups in the litter who are going to be little demonspawns (not used affectionately here at all). It is a percentage thing - but I don't want to have a puppy on my hands that I cannot place with a good conscience! I see too many nervy, inappropriately aggressive dogs who come out of a litter with pedigrees I feel the same way about.
> 
> 
> Lee


So could it also be said that the pet owners who have dogs with XXX in their pedigree don't see the negatives (yet) because they never challenge the dogs? Could it be true that the average spoiled pet seldom reverts to demon spawn because no one questions it's right to be a jackass? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to learn. I know I handled horses that showed like a dream and were nightmares to handle. Under an experienced rider they looked fabulous, with a newbie up they looked like the mounts of the four horsemen. Same idea?


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## lhczth

Ajay Singh, vom Patiala, bred to Elk twice with two different females (mother and daughter). He would be a good person to contact for information on the dog and how he produces. Ajay is on FB.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

wolfstraum said:


> Sabis mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lee, just curious but can you expand on this if you have time. For some of us who are learning, or looking for stable family pets, it may give aid with what to steer clear of.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is a classic example of why recommendations should be taken with a large grain - no a salt shaker full of chunky sea - salt!!!
> 
> Several of us who are experienced in breeding and have a more than average depth of knowledge see this pedigree for what it is....while a sport person is seeing a very very well trained competition dog - the finished product so to speak! When that is pointed out, it appears that it is considered validation of approval of the dog for a potential buyer (of a puppy by him is my assumption) while it is NOT a validation at all!
> 
> The minute a name is mentioned that is in the pedigree - the members with that dog in a pedigree will all jump on the band wagon and shrill - "My dog with XXX is a wonderful happy loving etc etc dog"......which may well be true! There is a spread of qualities and characteristics in every litter.....Personally, what *I *see as the negatives in this litter (3 specific dogs) would make me run the other way for breeding....what do I do with the 2 or 3 pups in the litter who are going to be little demonspawns (not used affectionately here at all). It is a percentage thing - but I don't want to have a puppy on my hands that I cannot place with a good conscience! I see too many nervy, inappropriately aggressive dogs who come out of a litter with pedigrees I feel the same way about.
> 
> 
> Lee
Click to expand...

I see this a lot through both avenues I am involved in. 

The new to sport/dog people see big names being thrown around, purchase a puppy and in months are over their head. Same with the breed club... Buy the popular stud puppy or the puppy recommended by someone competing in the sport to a newbie and again, pet dog with stronger character than they even have a clue to deal with.


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## cliffson1

wolfstraum said:


> This thread is a classic example of why recommendations should be taken with a large grain - no a salt shaker full of chunky sea - salt!!!
> 
> Several of us who are experienced in breeding and have a more than average depth of knowledge see this pedigree for what it is....while a sport person is seeing a very very well trained competition dog - the finished product so to speak! When that is pointed out, it appears that it is considered validation of approval of the dog for a potential buyer (of a puppy by him is my assumption) while it is NOT a validation at all!
> 
> The minute a name is mentioned that is in the pedigree - the members with that dog in a pedigree will all jump on the band wagon and shrill - "My dog with XXX is a wonderful happy loving etc etc dog"......which may well be true! There is a spread of qualities and characteristics in every litter.....Personally, what *I *see as the negatives in this litter (3 specific dogs) would make me run the other way for breeding....what do I do with the 2 or 3 pups in the litter who are going to be little demonspawns (not used affectionately here at all). It is a percentage thing - but I don't want to have a puppy on my hands that I cannot place with a good conscience! I see too many nervy, inappropriately aggressive dogs who come out of a litter with pedigrees I feel the same way about.
> 
> 
> Lee


I tend to agree with Lee on the evaluation of this pedigree. That is not to say this is not a good breeding for some purposes....but for general breeder selling their pups to mostly pet people, I agree with Lee. I could see one, two ,or maybe three pups out of eight that would be very difficult for average family. Now if you are a breeder that has waiting list or clientele that are in sport/work or a club....then these same pups may work out fine. For sure there will be some less active pups that will fit in good with family and the waiting list breeder can make sure they are appropriately matched. But those 2/3 demonspans as Lee mentions....they better go to right hands.


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## Nigel

On the surface finding the right dog seems simple enough with proper research, however the more you read, learn and experience the more you realise the complexity of the task. OP, I hope you find what you're looking for!


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## Ajay Singh

wolfstraum said:


> This thread is a classic example of why recommendations should be taken with a large grain - no a salt shaker full of chunky sea - salt!!!
> 
> Several of us who are experienced in breeding and have a more than average depth of knowledge see this pedigree for what it is....while a sport person is seeing a very very well trained competition dog - the finished product so to speak! When that is pointed out, it appears that it is considered validation of approval of the dog for a potential buyer (of a puppy by him is my assumption) while it is NOT a validation at all!
> 
> The minute a name is mentioned that is in the pedigree - the members with that dog in a pedigree will all jump on the band wagon and shrill - "My dog with XXX is a wonderful happy loving etc etc dog"......which may well be true! There is a spread of qualities and characteristics in every litter.....Personally, what *I *see as the negatives in this litter (3 specific dogs) would make me run the other way for breeding....what do I do with the 2 or 3 pups in the litter who are going to be little demonspawns (not used affectionately here at all). It is a percentage thing - but I don't want to have a puppy on my hands that I cannot place with a good conscience! I see too many nervy, inappropriately aggressive dogs who come out of a litter with pedigrees I feel the same way about.
> 
> 
> Lee


Wow! You and I must be looking for two different types of dogs Lee or may be you are not seeing things clearly. I met Elk, stayed at Ralph's house so I have an idea as what he is like away from the field, and watched him work before I bred two females to him, Pia vom Patiala (mother of our X-litter) and Solo vom Patiala (mother of our Y-litter). Elk was bred by Dan Waters and is a son of Magnum von der Schwarzen Natter and Bronte vom Daechsel. Elk and his brother (Ecko) both competed at the World Championship on the Canadian team. Elk and Ellis had OFA excellent hips and Ecko had OFA good hips and elbows were rated clear of dysplasia. Many people bred to Magnum with very good results and Bronte was a very strong female, a bit out of control, from every account I heard. Bronte (OFA good) is daughter of Canto vom Haus Endrikat, who was used multiple times by Arthur Kemmer of Karthago kennel before he was sold to US. Elk placed 17th at the WUSV in 2019, failed tracking in WUSV 2018, and 31st at WUSV 2017. He is still being worked 2 to 3 times a week and is totally healthy. He is absolutely stable in all situations, and was high in obedience at WUSV 2018 and would have been high in protection if the helper did not tuck his sleeve in before catching him on the long bite. Every grip was full, transitions were great, barking was convincing, super speed in all exercises, and jumping style was flawless (still is). In adidtion, he is dark sable, medium built dog with tremendous stamina for work. All dogs from our X-litter have good hips and elbows and we have one bad elbow from the y-litter pups. Our pups are in homes with children, including my Xarra, who people have seen interacting with my 3-year old grandson, on my facebook posts. Our X-litter was outstanding and the Y-litter was only a level lower because of one bad elbow. Our litters were inbred on Quaste - through Jilnannah and Hektor. 

I wonder where this opinion about Elk is coming from Lee! I am giving you my account of the dog without any bias, take it or leave it but your opinion could not be any further away from my experience. Elk is an excellent dog and should be bred to!


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## WNGD

2 year old thread but Lee may see this @wolfstraum


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## Sabis mom

New post seems to support Lee's opinion. All the dogs mentioned are with high level sport trainers. What if they end up in pet homes with owners who don't have that knowledge base? Or with people who want an active companion but don't want to join a club, don't have access to a club or can't afford to? What about people who just want a dog?


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## Ajay Singh

Sabis mom said:


> New post seems to support Lee's opinion. All the dogs mentioned are with high level sport trainers. What if they end up in pet homes with owners who don't have that knowledge base? Or with people who want an active companion but don't want to join a club, don't have access to a club or can't afford to? What about people who just want a dog?


All the dogs I mentioned live in active households. If you are looking for an inactive German Shepherd then these are not the dogs for you but they are not nervy or aggressive, none of them!


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## Sabis mom

Ajay Singh said:


> All the dogs I mentioned live in active households. If you are looking for an inactive German Shepherd then these are not the dogs for you but they are not nervy or aggressive, none of them!


I know who you are. My point was there are far more average homes then high level sport homes. An active household under the hand of an experienced trainer looks quite different then an active home with a pet owner. No one is talking about inactive dogs, simply dogs in homes peopled by everyday people.


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## wolfstraum

I think you need to reread my post and take away the fact that you know the dog Ajay. My comments are not directed to knocking any ones accomplishments or ability. My "opinion" was NOT a judgement of the individual dog Ajaye....and did not warrant a sharp reprimand from you! My comments are based on an overall impression of the dog's pedigree....NOT his ability, training or trial record.

I am sure that my perspective is different than yours - than most sport breeders whose pinnacle of success and goal is schutzhund titles.......your focus is on the work - and by that, the ability of the handler/trainer and helpers who make the dog are just as much a factor as the breeding and pedigree. Mine is much broader. I see many many dogs I admire that I will not use for breeding. My background is horses, my area of interest and years of study and research give me a different perspective and rationale, one that is different from most sport dog people who look at the dog in front of them and disregard a pedigree. 

I will not use a dog for breeding whose grandfather had to be taken to a podium at a top level event in a muzzle, I will not use a dog whose family produces as many nervy dogs as successful sport dogs, who himself, or whose family is rife with allergy and health problems, immune issues, heart issues, birth defects, dogs who win but who have put their handlers in an ER even once, let alone more often....no matter how impressive the descendent is on the field.....My breeding is rather limited compared to most - but my litters, and even another generation down have done OK in competition with several going top 10 Nationally, even with novice handlers. But I am just as happy with the many dogs doing active SAR, LE, dock diving, AKC events etc. I hear from too many puppy buyers who get a dog from a "big name" kennel or sire who end up in deep doo doo with drive or temperament that is not what they want to need.....and this particular forum is moreso a resource for people NOT in the dogsport world. I am not into the cliques, backstabbing, two faced bullying that is rife in that world.....I am old and tired of it.....

To make it easy - Few Kentucky Derby winners produce Kentucky Derby winners.....some don't produce anything of note at all.....some fantastic racehorses fail to become successful sires - even with the best available mates in the country - Secretariat and Spectaular Bid failed to be top commercial sires.....and one of the top horses of his generation, Tapit, won only $300K in a few starts.....dog breeding moves so much more quickly - but the "top" competitors rarely become top sires....I will continue to think outside of the norm in dogsport.

Lee


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## Ajay Singh

wolfstraum said:


> I think you need to reread my post and take away the fact that you know the dog Ajay. My comments are not directed to knocking any ones accomplishments or ability. My "opinion" was NOT a judgement of the individual dog Ajaye....and did not warrant a sharp reprimand from you! My comments are based on an overall impression of the dog's pedigree....NOT his ability, training or trial record.
> 
> I am sure that my perspective is different than yours - than most sport breeders whose pinnacle of success and goal is schutzhund titles.......your focus is on the work - and by that, the ability of the handler/trainer and helpers who make the dog are just as much a factor as the breeding and pedigree. Mine is much broader. I see many many dogs I admire that I will not use for breeding. My background is horses, my area of interest and years of study and research give me a different perspective and rationale, one that is different from most sport dog people who look at the dog in front of them and disregard a pedigree.
> 
> I will not use a dog for breeding whose grandfather had to be taken to a podium at a top level event in a muzzle, I will not use a dog whose family produces as many nervy dogs as successful sport dogs, who himself, or whose family is rife with allergy and health problems, immune issues, heart issues, birth defects, dogs who win but who have put their handlers in an ER even once, let alone more often....no matter how impressive the descendent is on the field.....My breeding is rather limited compared to most - but my litters, and even another generation down have done OK in competition with several going top 10 Nationally, even with novice handlers. But I am just as happy with the many dogs doing active SAR, LE, dock diving, AKC events etc. I hear from too many puppy buyers who get a dog from a "big name" kennel or sire who end up in deep doo doo with drive or temperament that is not what they want to need.....and this particular forum is moreso a resource for people NOT in the dogsport world. I am not into the cliques, backstabbing, two faced bullying that is rife in that world.....I am old and tired of it.....
> 
> To make it easy - Few Kentucky Derby winners produce Kentucky Derby winners.....some don't produce anything of note at all.....some fantastic racehorses fail to become successful sires - even with the best available mates in the country - Secretariat and Spectaular Bid failed to be top commercial sires.....and one of the top horses of his generation, Tapit, won only $300K in a few starts.....dog breeding moves so much more quickly - but the "top" competitors rarely become top sires....I will continue to think outside of the norm in dogsport.
> 
> Lee


Here we go again! Let's start talking about the health issues that no one has seen. I told you I bred to him twice, and there were no allergies, I told you about the elbow issue, no immune issues, no heart issues, and no birth defects. Do you sometimes realize that some people may pay attention to your false propaganda and why do you do that? My female - Xarra lives with us and is not a sport dog only, X-Triton lives with his owner inside the house, X-kash lives in the house with three kids, Exe lives in the house, Xorro lives in the house with a novice owner who has contacted me about getting another dog like him, Yano lives in the house, so I have told you the results I got then why are you going to dogs three generations away. I know those dogs perhaps better than you and have actually met some of them. Stay on the dogs with me and don't take the discussion to race horses because there are just as many false stories there. If you want to sell your dogs, go ahead, no one is bad mouthing you but don't resort to bad mouthing other people's dogs to sell your own. I have not bred many litters either but have been around shepherds since my childhood and have studied the breed as well as anyone out there. I live with the dogs I have bred, and I have a normal family with a 3 year old grandson who lives with us. I train, title, and health test my own dogs, in other words put my money where my mouth is, and I chose to breed to Elk twice. Why would I do it! If you are old and tired of it then keep your opinions to yourself because recently I have seen you spread poison about Irck de la Hutte du Berger. Please, dont do that!


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## wolfstraum

I talk in generalites - NOT ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC DOG - you don't seem to want to understand that !!!! Now you are taking a 2 year old thread - making it all about YOU - basically twisting what I say to your own agenda.....My comments are NOT ABOUT YOU...NOT ABOUT YOUR DOGS AND ARE BASED ON THOUGHTS AND KNOWLEDGE OF SEVERAL DOGS WHO SHOW UP IN ALOT OF PEDIGREES....When an SV judge shows his scars off and brags about his dog putting him in the hospital - that has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU AJAY. As far as the facebook post you seem to be bent out of shape over, sorry - I saw x-rays and reports and know more than one person with progeny, another person who commented is a vet and also was given facts on hip issues...Quite a few years ago, an SV judge explained that many pups whose x-rays are poor are "sent to heaven" right on the x-ray table as if they are sent it, the ZW numbers will be affected negatively - YES - that is a direct quote from an SV judge - the conversation was at least 10 years ago - please read those words....I am NOT referring to any living dog! I find it amazing how the German breeders/judges give out this kind of info very matter of factly with no drama ....but it must turn into holy war here.


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## Sabis mom

@Ajay Singh welcome to the forum. I'm sure your input will be appreciated by some members.
I know none of these dogs, since I don't participate in bite sports. But I tried to ask you last night and you didn't answer.
You said you bred two litters by this dog? How many of them belong to club members? I'm honestly curious because when I was looking for a pup a while back I was getting responses that litters were only suitable for high level sports, not pets. My working patrol dogs lived as part of my family so I found that a bit confusing.
Are you saying that these dogs you bred are fine in an average pet home? Active but with no professional trainer 3 times a week? 
Again I am curious, not trying to be argumentative.


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## Ajay Singh

Sabis mom said:


> @Ajay Singh welcome to the forum. I'm sure your input will be appreciated by some members.
> I know none of these dogs, since I don't participate in bite sports. But I tried to ask you last night and you didn't answer.
> You said you bred two litters by this dog? How many of them belong to club members? I'm honestly curious because when I was looking for a pup a while back I was getting responses that litters were only suitable for high level sports, not pets. My working patrol dogs lived as part of my family so I found that a bit confusing.
> Are you saying that these dogs you bred are fine in an average pet home? Active but with no professional trainer 3 times a week?
> Again I am curious, not trying to be argumentative.


I am not a professional dog trainer and Xarra goes to work with me. Xtriton's owner is not a professional dog trainer and the dog lives in the house with him. Exe's trainer is a young man - Jessie, and she lives in the house with him. Xkash lives with Aaron Nelson and they have three little children. His youngest daughter, probably 6 years old, baked a birthday cake for the dog. Yes they are active and a good German Shepherd should be but to call them nervy aggressive is hitting below the belt and is not truthful. Elk is not like that at all. He is not my dog but I must have liked something about him to bred to him.


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## Sabis mom

Ajay Singh said:


> I am not a professional dog trainer and Xarra goes to work with me. Xtriton's owner is not a professional dog trainer and the dog lives in the house with him. Exe's trainer is a young man - Jessie, and she lives in the house with him. Xkash lives with Aaron Nelson and they have three little children. His youngest daughter, probably 6 years old, baked a birthday cake for the dog. Yes they are active and a good German Shepherd should be but to call them nervy aggressive is hitting below the belt and is not truthful. Elk is not like that at all. He is not my dog but I must have liked something about him to bred to him.


Thank you for answering. My current dog is nervy, most pet homes would have been over their heads with her and yet people comment to me often how well behaved she is. I think she is a rotten witch, easily the worst trained dog I have ever owned. I am very aware of just how much training and handling can hide. 
At least once a week members join this forum looking for help with a dog that someone sold them who is way, way more dog then they can handle. Dogs attacking family members, dogs attacking other pets. It's crazy. This breed, right out of the box, should be easily capable of safely interacting with a family.


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## Bearshandler

Here is my big issue here, and it’s a common trend. It’s not possible to have honest conversations about dogs. If someone gives a negative opinion of a dog or their pedigree and someone else is personally involved, it becomes this mud slinging war. This occurs even with states facts. It occurs when discussing breeders. It’s impossible to get a real picture on dogs or breeders here because valid opinions typically get shouted down. I see no problem with one person liking a dog and one person not liking a dog.


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## Ajay Singh

I am giving you first hand accounts of the dog


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## rotdocpa1

It is sad that calm discussions of both good and bad don't seem to occur. Probably every dog I train with has at least one controversial dog(or more) in their pedigree. We would eliminate large segments of the gene pool if we stopped using these dogs. One even goes back to Crok. Is he a cream puff? Absolutely not. Would he make a great dog for police-definitely. Personally I think we would eliminate valued working qualities if we start down that path. I also believe the goal in WL shepherds should be to select for real work not just sport and not primarily to go to pet homes. There will always be some puppies(esp females ) that will be easier. People need to educate prospective puppy buyers better. I get too many calls for pets that are looking at WL dogs because of color or they believe they are less expensive. Most have little experience with strong dogs. Most have no real training plans for the dog either. I strongly encourage them to look at the German showlines for an active pet instead. I do believe breeders should screen people better and breeding fewer and better litters would be better for the breed.


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## Pytheis

Ajay Singh said:


> I am not a professional dog trainer and Xarra goes to work with me. Xtriton's owner is not a professional dog trainer and the dog lives in the house with him. Exe's trainer is a young man - Jessie, and she lives in the house with him. Xkash lives with Aaron Nelson and they have three little children. His youngest daughter, probably 6 years old, baked a birthday cake for the dog. Yes they are active and a good German Shepherd should be but to call them nervy aggressive is hitting below the belt and is not truthful. Elk is not like that at all. He is not my dog but I must have liked something about him to bred to him.


The problem with this post is that it doesn’t tell me much about the owners themselves. Sure, you may not be a professional trainer, but you’re clearly very experienced with GSDs and working them. The other homes you listed may also not be professional trainers but may be very experienced owners. Honestly, how often do puppies get homes with professional trainers? Probably not often.

What I want to know is how experienced the homes you sent the dogs to are. How many pups did you send to homes that wanted purely a pet? That had no intention of getting involved in any sport or work. How many homes did you send pups to where it was the owner’s first working line dog? First GSD? First dog ever? Because just-pet owners make up probably 90% of this forum. Most people that post here wanting advice on a dog or a breeder are not experienced.

Not at all bashing you. Just hoping for some clarification to get a good idea on the skill level needed to own these dogs.


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## BigOzzy2018

The problem I see and getting worse is breeders are breeding way too many puppies and not doing the proper screening of potential buyers. Most don’t care where they go. 
if I was a breeder I would never sell a WL GSD to an inexperienced person who never owned a WL GSD. The GSD is declining in health, temperament and working ability. Yes, work, as well as natural aggression. They are not Goldens or labs. Breeders are breeding for a lab temperament with horrible consequences.
I read about so many pet people who have so many complaints about their puppy, biting can’t stay still, scared of life etc. it sickens me to read all the post as well as angers me, 
I blame the breeders for selling the pup to an experienced homes. I blame the breeder for selling a pup with full registration. 
That’s my rant.


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## BigOzzy2018

Pytheis said:


> The problem with this post is that it doesn’t tell me much about the owners themselves. Sure, you may not be a professional trainer, but you’re clearly very experienced with GSDs and working them. The other homes you listed may also not be professional trainers but may be very experienced owners. Honestly, how often do puppies get homes with professional trainers? Probably not often.
> 
> What I want to know is how experienced the homes you sent the dogs to are. How many pups did you send to homes that wanted purely a pet? That had no intention of getting involved in any sport or work. How many homes did you send pups to where it was the owner’s first working line dog? First GSD? First dog ever? Because just-pet owners make up probably 90% of this forum. Most people that post here wanting advice on a dog or a breeder are not experienced.
> 
> Not at all bashing you. Just hoping for some clarification to get a good idea on the skill level needed to own these dogs.


They should get another breed if they do not have the experience with that type of dog.


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## Pytheis

BigOzzy2018 said:


> They should get another breed if they do not have the experience with that type of dog.


I completely disagree with you. How does that make _any_ sense? You have to start somewhere. If you don’t have experience with what a true GSD should be (and I am so sick of people spouting that phrase), how are you supposed to get experience except by going to a reputable breeder and getting one of the easier pups in the litter? Simply going to clubs and trials and being around the dogs is not enough. You have to own, handle, and live with a dog to get true experience. I guess you need to define what you mean by “that type of dog.”


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## wolfstraum

FOR THE LAST TIME: NO ONE EVER EVER CALLED THE MALE NERVY OR MADE ANY NEGATIVE COMMENT ABOUT HIM!!!! 

comments are made by several people - not just me - but I have been singled out for some reason!!! - that the PEDIGREE has strength and elements of aggression - . THE PEDIGREE!!!!!!!! The dog obviously is well trained, well presented and accomplished!!! He is owned by a competitor of high regard and has been successful in trials. Breeding from him and puppies have POTENTIAL for traits that MAY NOT be suitable for pet/novices. I have bred to a Yoshey son and got dwarf puppies from him - and that does not mean every dog with Yoshey is going to produce dwarfs. It means that in that dog's genetics there is a POTENTIAL for that gene to appear!!!!! I have friends who have dogs with Crok and Ellute - not every dog with each of these dogs exhibits the same temperament negatives and positives. That is the problem - discussing pedigree is discussing POTENTIAL.

NO ONE MADE ANY NEGATIVE COMMENT ON THE MALE HIMSELF. NO ONE.


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## Ajay Singh

Pytheis said:


> I completely disagree with you. How does that make _any_ sense? You have to start somewhere. If you don’t have experience with what a true GSD should be (and I am so sick of people spouting that phrase), how are you supposed to get experience except by going to a reputable breeder and getting one of the easier pups in the litter? Simply going to clubs and trials and being around the dogs is not enough. You have to own, handle, and live with a dog to get true experience. I guess you need to define what you mean by “that type of dog.”





Pytheis said:


> The problem with this post is that it doesn’t tell me much about the owners themselves. Sure, you may not be a professional trainer, but you’re clearly very experienced with GSDs and working them. The other homes you listed may also not be professional trainers but may be very experienced owners. Honestly, how often do puppies get homes with professional trainers? Probably not often.
> 
> What I want to know is how experienced the homes you sent the dogs to are. How many pups did you send to homes that wanted purely a pet? That had no intention of getting involved in any sport or work. How many homes did you send pups to where it was the owner’s first working line dog? First GSD? First dog ever? Because just-pet owners make up probably 90% of this forum. Most people that post here wanting advice on a dog or a breeder are not experienced.
> 
> Not at all bashing you. Just hoping for some clarification to get a good idea on the skill level needed to own these dogs.


From my current litter, more than half of the pups went to inexperienced homes, and I am constantly in touch with them to help them. But I would not sell an active pup to a person who is inactive himself. From the Elk's litter Aaron was a newbie, Xtriton's owner had a dog, and Xorro's owner is inexperienced. You have to find a good fit between the owners and the pups. I dont reserve pups before they are born and I screen the potential buyers (as thoroughly as I can) and then provide them support. Not 100 percent but it works for the most part.


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## Sabis mom

Here is my issue with all of this. 
I keep hearing this line about real German Shepherds and they are supposed to be aggressive and they are not pets.
Lie, lie, lie.
All dogs possess some level of aggression. That is normal. Uncontrollable aggression, mauling humans and specifically aggression directed toward owners or ANY child is an issue and not something that this breed should ever display. No dog that needs a skilled handler to control it day to day and a team of assistants is a breed worthy animal. No dog that needs to be muzzled out in public is breed worthy.
A balanced German Shepherd should be an asset not a liability and any owner wanting an active breed should be able to handle one.
Overt aggression of any kind is a flaw. The breed is supposed to be somewhat aloof, not blatantly nasty. They are supposed to display courage under pressure, they are not supposed to romp about biting random people.
Any breeder deliberately producing overly sharp or aggressive dogs is doing something wrong. If they are doing it to score points that's just ignorant.
Again back to the herding genetics needed to keep the discernment and balance.


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## Pytheis

The gatekeeping and politics in this breed is unbelievable. I don’t think breeders should be breeding German shepherds with temperaments like a golden or lab, but they absolutely shouldn’t only be breeding dogs that are maniacs and impossible to live with. Dogs that go after their owners, can’t be around the general public because they aren’t safe, would chase down and kill anything it considers prey, those dogs are not what German shepherds should be to me. I hear constantly about dogs that can’t even live in the homes with their owners, but wow! They’re top competing sport dogs. So what? Dogs were designed to help us get jobs done _and provide companionship._ To me, a dog is useless if it’s only good for its job and can’t be lived with otherwise.

To say that anyone without working line experience shouldn’t have a working line... that makes absolutely no sense. How do new people get into the breed then? When everyone with experience dies, the breed will go extinct. ????


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## Pytheis

Ajay Singh said:


> From my current litter, more than half of the pups went to inexperienced homes, and I am constantly in touch with them to help them. But I would not sell an active pup to a person who is inactive himself. From the Elk's litter Aaron was a newbie, Xtriton's owner had a dog, and Xorro's owner is inexperienced. You have to find a good fit between the owners and the pups. I dont reserve pups before they are born and I screen the potential buyers (as thoroughly as I can) and then provide them support. Not 100 percent but it works for the most part.


This is helpful to me and what I would expect from a solid working line breeder. I have my first working line dog now. He’s almost 2 years old. I’ve asked his breeder about plenty of things I had questions about, and she was more than happy to help. THAT is how people get into the breed. My boy is happy, active, well trained, and well behaved. I never have any of the common issues people complain about in the breed, and again, I’m totally inexperienced. We don’t need to be gatekeeping the breed. Otherwise it’ll completely disappear.


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## WIBackpacker

BigOzzy2018 said:


> if I was a breeder I would never sell a WL GSD to an inexperienced person who never owned a WL GSD.


I think this is a terrible mindset. How sad.

On paper, according to this mindset I was woefully inadequate for my first high drive working dog. I had a resume of mixes and easy going, plug-and-play showline training. Turns out I love high drive dogs. If everyone refused to sell me one, how would I have learned?


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## Steve Strom

Pytheis said:


> The problem with this post is that it doesn’t tell me much about the owners themselves. Sure, you may not be a professional trainer, but you’re clearly very experienced with GSDs and working them. The other homes you listed may also not be professional trainers but may be very experienced owners. Honestly, how often do puppies get homes with professional trainers? Probably not often.
> 
> What I want to know is how experienced the homes you sent the dogs to are. How many pups did you send to homes that wanted purely a pet? That had no intention of getting involved in any sport or work. How many homes did you send pups to where it was the owner’s first working line dog? First GSD? First dog ever? Because just-pet owners make up probably 90% of this forum. Most people that post here wanting advice on a dog or a breeder are not experienced.
> 
> Not at all bashing you. Just hoping for some clarification to get a good idea on the skill level needed to own these dogs.


90% of the people are just like us Pytheis, and thats including the people who go to club and train formally. We have a pretty active area here as far as clubs and probably a higher number of what you'd consider high level trainers, but the overwhelming number of people are families and individuals living with these dogs like any other pet.


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## BigOzzy2018

Pytheis said:


> I completely disagree with you. How does that make _any_ sense? You have to start somewhere. If you don’t have experience with what a true GSD should be (and I am so sick of people spouting that phrase), how are you supposed to get experience except by going to a reputable breeder and getting one of the easier pups in the litter? Simply going to clubs and trials and being around the dogs is not enough. You have to own, handle, and live with a dog to get true experience. I guess you need to define what you mean by “that type of dog.”





WIBackpacker said:


> I think this is a terrible mindset. How sad.
> 
> On paper, according to this mindset I was woefully inadequate for my first high drive working dog. I had a resume of mixes and easy going, plug-and-play showline training. Turns out I love high drive dogs. If everyone refused to sell me one, how would I have learned?


But you had experience right? You know what is needed and the desire to work the dog. Big difference from a person who never owned a GSD let alone a workingline bred to work.


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## BigOzzy2018

Sabis mom said:


> Here is my issue with all of this.
> I keep hearing this line about real German Shepherds and they are supposed to be aggressive and they are not pets.
> Lie, lie, lie.
> All dogs possess some level of aggression. That is normal. Uncontrollable aggression, mauling humans and specifically aggression directed toward owners or ANY child is an issue and not something that this breed should ever display. No dog that needs a skilled handler to control it day to day and a team of assistants is a breed worthy animal. No dog that needs to be muzzled out in public is breed worthy.
> A balanced German Shepherd should be an asset not a liability and any owner wanting an active breed should be able to handle one.
> Overt aggression of any kind is a flaw. The breed is supposed to be somewhat aloof, not blatantly nasty. They are supposed to display courage under pressure, they are not supposed to romp about biting random people.
> Any breeder deliberately producing overly sharp or aggressive dogs is doing something wrong. If they are doing it to score points that's just ignorant.
> Again back to the herding genetics needed to keep the discernment and balance.


I agree but these dog’s are not just a dog to lay around the house and go play in a yard and be done. They need some sort of outlet everyday rain or shine or they will find another way and it won’t be good, hence why there are so many posts about problem dogs. Yes, breeding crap to crap does not help either. The breed is dwindling down plain and simple.


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## Nscullin

BigOzzy2018 said:


> The problem I see and getting worse is breeders are breeding way too many puppies and not doing the proper screening of potential buyers. Most don’t care where they go.
> if I was a breeder I would never sell a WL GSD to an inexperienced person who never owned a WL GSD. The GSD is declining in health, temperament and working ability. Yes, work, as well as natural aggression. They are not Goldens or labs. Breeders are breeding for a lab temperament with horrible consequences.
> I read about so many pet people who have so many complaints about their puppy, biting can’t stay still, scared of life etc. it sickens me to read all the post as well as angers me,
> I blame the breeders for selling the pup to an experienced homes. I blame the breeder for selling a pup with full registration.
> That’s my rant.


If you only sell WL gsds to a person who’s owned a WL Gsd, the working lines would eventually die out. Everyone’s gotta start somewhere. You did too. Don’t forget that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nscullin

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I agree but these dog’s are not just a dog to lay around the house and go play in a yard and be done. They need some sort of outlet everyday rain or shine or they will find another way and it won’t be good, hence why there are so many posts about problem dogs. Yes, breeding crap to crap does not help either. The breed is dwindling down plain and simple.


My dog does exactly that when she feels like it. She takes days off lol. She can lay there with a bone and relax or we can go train. Just depends. These dogs aren’t impossible to live with for the most part. An “outlet” doesn’t have to be as much as you’re making it sound. I can go work on my dogs bark in the backyard to build up endurance on that, I can go to club, I can do the heeling pattern, I can throw a ball, o can put her on the dog pacer. An “outlet” doesn’t have to be as major as you make it sound. People just have to learn how to own these dogs sometimes. When we stop teaching, stop letting new people in, and stop guiding beginners, that’s when the real problems will start. I still get help from those more experienced than me. I have no problem asking. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sabis mom

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I agree but these dog’s are not just a dog to lay around the house and go play in a yard and be done. They need some sort of outlet everyday rain or shine or they will find another way and it won’t be good, hence why there are so many posts about problem dogs. Yes, breeding crap to crap does not help either. The breed is dwindling down plain and simple.


No one including me is suggesting that. But my dogs get hiking, camping, fetch and general life as an outlet. I happen to like tracking/trailing, scent work and building searches so I frequently train dogs for it. But I shouldn't need to. A person who is committed to exercise should be just fine, and should not need to spend thousands on a trainer to control their own dog.


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## BigOzzy2018

Nscullin said:


> If you only sell WL gsds to a person who’s owned a WL Gsd, the working lines would eventually die out. Everyone’s gotta start somewhere. You did too. Don’t forget that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep I did start out as a newbie owning a GSD as well as WL. I was sold a pup that was to be mediocre because I was a newbie. Turned out she was a lot more dog. The key was I had dog experience for years as well as training a dog. So I had the experience from the get go. 
I had the time to give and train her and a club I belonged to that helped me learn even more about the breed. Now while I stand behind the comment about not selling a WL GSD to a new dog owner stands but I can say I did not clarify that comment.and apologize for not being more clear.  I don’t want to take over this thread so I will start a new one to clarify more in my comment.


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## Bearshandler

Ajay Singh said:


> I am giving you first hand accounts of the dog


I understand. That doesn’t invalidate what some tells sees in the pedigree of that dog. Which one weighs more, that’s up to who’s reading it to decide. There is a reason that dogs with unknown origins shouldn’t be bred and there is a reason dogs who aren’t worked shouldn’t be bred. I can tell you Lee is a pretty harsh critic of pedigrees in general. There’s very specific things she likes and doesn’t like. It’s one of the reasons I like talking to her about these things. I know that I will get a very real answer, and I will learn good and bad in there.


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## Bearshandler

Ajay Singh said:


> From my current litter, more than half of the pups went to inexperienced homes, and I am constantly in touch with them to help them. But I would not sell an active pup to a person who is inactive himself. From the Elk's litter Aaron was a newbie, Xtriton's owner had a dog, and Xorro's owner is inexperienced. You have to find a good fit between the owners and the pups. I dont reserve pups before they are born and I screen the potential buyers (as thoroughly as I can) and then provide them support. Not 100 percent but it works for the most part.


I do appreciate you’re openness about talking about your dogs. My question pertaining to this dog specifically is this? Do you think every dog from these two litters would have been suitable for an inexperienced home or were there some that you wouldn’t place in certain situations for certain reasons. I mean an owner you would sell a different dog to, not someone you would never do business regardless.


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## BigOzzy2018

Sabis mom said:


> No one including me is suggesting that. But my dogs get hiking, camping, fetch and general life as an outlet. I happen to like tracking/trailing, scent work and building searches so I frequently train dogs for it. But I shouldn't need to. A person who is committed to exercise should be just fine, and should not need to spend thousands on a trainer to control their own dog.


Your giving your dogs an outlet and sport is not the only outlet. As you know this breed is very intelligent and are not meant to just be a pet and I mean a couch potato that just go in a out of a yard. Having the experience with the breed and actually doing something with dog is key to a happy dog that can be in the house with a family. How many people want a GSD because of color size, or I want a dog to protect me my kids, my kids want a pet etc but never do anything with the dog. Those are the ones that should not get a GSD but are sold to homes like these with very sad consequences.


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## pam

Ajay, perhaps you could peruse a few of the old threads from this forum where pedigrees were discussed. There are several members who have dedicated themselves to the study of pedigrees in much the same way breeders of race horses do. Not just the paper. They take the time to observe the dog themselves, talk to other breeders, trainers and judges whom they trust for their objectivity and use all of those factors to reach breeding decisions. They readily acknowledge their personal biases in their breeding goals and lay out their successes and failures. Cliff agreed with Lee's analysis of the pedigree in question, yet you attacked her, called her statements untruthful and ignored him completely. Why? Past threads have demonstrated that these individuals can have reasoned discussions on pedigrees and, in the end, everyone has something to take away from it. Since you did not seem to digest that Lee was not attacking an individual dog, I will emphasize that my comments are in no way insinuating that you are not among those breeders who do not adhere to high standards. My point is that you need to read posts carefully before choosing to attack someone. That kind of behavior results in the loss of the type of input members are searching for.

Best regards


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## Sabis mom

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Your giving your dogs an outlet and sport is not the only outlet. As you know this breed is very intelligent and are not meant to just be a pet and I mean a couch potato that just go in a out of a yard. Having the experience with the breed and actually doing something with dog is key to a happy dog that can be in the house with a family. How many people want a GSD because of color size, or I want a dog to protect me my kids, my kids want a pet etc but never do anything with the dog. Those are the ones that should not get a GSD but are sold to homes like these with very sad consequences.


But those same criteria apply to field spaniels or retrievers also. Or working Border Collies. Or Heelers. 
Any working dog is going to need exercise. 
When I reached out to breeders, I was as honest as possible. I have zero interest in any bite sport, and not much more interest in any competition event at all. But I am active and outdoorsy, enjoy a variety of activities such as hiking, canoeing, snow shoeing, etc. which the dog would be along for. 
I very deliberately did not mention that I had any experience with working dogs. 
I was told to look elsewhere, that this breed was not for me.


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## Fodder

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Your giving your dogs an outlet and sport is not the only outlet. As you know this breed is very intelligent and are not meant to just be a pet and I mean a couch potato that just go in a out of a yard. Having the experience with the breed and actually doing something with dog is key to a happy dog that can be in the house with a family. How many people want a GSD because of color size, or I want a dog to protect me my kids, my kids want a pet etc but never do anything with the dog. Those are the ones that should not get a GSD but are sold to homes like these with very sad consequences.


i think part of your previous statement that’s controversial is saying that WL experience should be required to have a WL dog. that’s different from GSD (or similar) experience. i don’t think it’s impossible for someone to be successful with a WL dog as a first dog or while being new to the breed - but there many factors (research, lifestyle, the right breeder/breeding, training resources/support) that MUST be in place in order to achieve that success. i do believe that there’s such thing as “graduating up” within the breed... personally, that was my route.


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## Bearshandler

pam said:


> Ajay, perhaps you could peruse a few of the old threads from this forum where pedigrees were discussed. There are several members who have dedicated themselves to the study of pedigrees in much the same way breeders of race horses do. Not just the paper. They take the time to observe the dog themselves, talk to other breeders, trainers and judges whom they trust for their objectivity and use all of those factors to reach breeding decisions. They readily acknowledge their personal biases in their breeding goals and lay out their successes and failures. Cliff agreed with Lee's analysis of the pedigree in question, yet you attacked her, called her statements untruthful and ignored him completely. Why? Past threads have demonstrated that these individuals can have reasoned discussions on pedigrees and, in the end, everyone has something to take away from it. Since you did not seem to digest that Lee was not attacking an individual dog, I will emphasize that my comments are in no way insinuating that you are not among those breeders who do not adhere to high standards. My point is that you need to read posts carefully before choosing to attack someone. That kind of behavior results in the loss of the type of input members are searching for.
> 
> Best regards


Ajay isn’t exactly new here.


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## BigOzzy2018

Fodder said:


> i think part of your previous statement that’s controversial is saying that WL experience should be required to have a WL dog. that’s different from GSD (or similar) experience. i don’t think it’s impossible for someone to be successful with a WL dog as a first dog or while being new to the breed - but there many factors (research, the right breeder/breeding, training resources/support) that MUST be in place in order to achieve that success. i do believe that there’s such things as “graduating up” within the breed... personally, that was my route.


Correct I was not clear in my statement. Part of what I want to say does not come out right when I type.


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## Bearshandler

Fodder said:


> i think part of your previous statement that’s controversial is saying that WL experience should be required to have a WL dog. that’s different from GSD (or similar) experience. i don’t think it’s impossible for someone to be successful with a WL dog as a first dog or while being new to the breed - but there many factors (research, lifestyle, the right breeder/breeding, training resources/support) that MUST be in place in order to achieve that success. i do believe that there’s such thing as “graduating up” within the breed... personally, that was my route.


My TD says starting out with intense high drive working lines is like learning to drive in a Ferrari .


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## rotdocpa1

I think if someone inexperienced wants a WL dog get a female. Huge difference from many males. Most of the disasters I see are males being sold to inexperienced owners. This allows somebody to getting a WL without getting in over there head. Obviously there is an occasional mellow male but I don't think generally a male is where most people should start who have plans to just do basic puppy class and call it a day.


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## Sunsilver

Cliff and Wolfstraum are the two people in this board I would REALLY trust to tell me what I need to know when looking at the pedigree of a dog I want to buy.


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## Nscullin

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Correct I was not clear in my statement. Part of what I want to say does not come out right when I type.


Things get lost in online dialogue. No big deal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pam

Bearshandler said:


> Ajay isn’t exactly new here.


I am aware of that. My point is to engage in rational, vigorous debate after carefully reading posts to maintain perspective and focus


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## HollandN

Very cool that Ajay who has met the dog and bred to the dog posted his opinion of the dog. Maybe the best thing to do is meet the dog and the breeder in person. Looks like there are also good breeders in Canada. Hope Ajay will continue to post sometimes


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## Ajay Singh

wolfstraum said:


> FOR THE LAST TIME: NO ONE EVER EVER CALLED THE MALE NERVY OR MADE ANY NEGATIVE COMMENT ABOUT HIM!!!!
> 
> comments are made by several people - not just me - but I have been singled out for some reason!!! - that the PEDIGREE has strength and elements of aggression - . THE PEDIGREE!!!!!!!! The dog obviously is well trained, well presented and accomplished!!! He is owned by a competitor of high regard and has been successful in trials. Breeding from him and puppies have POTENTIAL for traits that MAY NOT be suitable for pet/novices. I have bred to a Yoshey son and got dwarf puppies from him - and that does not mean every dog with Yoshey is going to produce dwarfs. It means that in that dog's genetics there is a POTENTIAL for that gene to appear!!!!! I have friends who have dogs with Crok and Ellute - not every dog with each of these dogs exhibits the same temperament negatives and positives. That is the problem - discussing pedigree is discussing POTENTIAL.
> 
> NO ONE MADE ANY NEGATIVE COMMENT ON THE MALE HIMSELF. NO ONE.





pam said:


> Ajay, perhaps you could peruse a few of the old threads from this forum where pedigrees were discussed. There are several members who have dedicated themselves to the study of pedigrees in much the same way breeders of race horses do. Not just the paper. They take the time to observe the dog themselves, talk to other breeders, trainers and judges whom they trust for their objectivity and use all of those factors to reach breeding decisions. They readily acknowledge their personal biases in their breeding goals and lay out their successes and failures. Cliff agreed with Lee's analysis of the pedigree in question, yet you attacked her, called her statements untruthful and ignored him completely. Why? Past threads have demonstrated that these individuals can have reasoned discussions on pedigrees and, in the end, everyone has something to take away from it. Since you did not seem to digest that Lee was not attacking an individual dog, I will emphasize that my comments are in no way insinuating that you are not among those breeders who do not adhere to high standards. My point is that you need to read posts carefully before choosing to attack someone. That kind of behavior results in the loss of the type of input members are searching for.
> 
> Best regards


The study of the pedigree is nothing more than a good guess. It is hard to know all the dogs in the pedigree and sometimes the opinions one hears are snapshots in a dog's life. Sometimes they are not accurate and sometimes things are lost in translation. The actual accounts come from people who live with the dogs which are rare. Sometimes the behavior the dog is exhibiting is a learned behavior based on training environment and it is not entirely genetic. Often you hear dogs who switch trainers show transformation in behavior with the new handler. So it is very important that the stories one uses to form his/her opinion come from reliable sources. The only way to look at the pedigree is from the left to right because parents have the most influence on the pups and then the grandparents and successive generations. Once in a while the pup may be more like his grandparents or great grandparents but that is rare. The best way to really improve your odds to get the pup you want is to go spend sometime with the parents or trust the breeder. Before you put your trust in the breeder, make sure the breeder has a track record as a trainer, handler, and has a good grasp on the breed. One does not gain experience as a breeder by sitting behind the keyboard and quoting other people all the time. You have to meet as many dogs and dog people as you can, train your own dogs to learn the nuances of the dog behavior, and live with your own dogs from the puppy hood to the day you put them into the ground. It takes two sides (father's and mother's pedigree) to make a breeding and the puppy's pedigree. Good breeders have a feel for how to combine the dogs and get good results. 

Dr. Raiser says - those who breed and do not train are like the blind trying to describe color. I go one step beyond that, those who breed without knowing the breed and without having the direction where they are headed should not be breeding.


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## Ajay Singh

Sunsilver said:


> Cliff and Wolfstraum are the two people in this board I would REALLY trust to tell me what I need to know when looking at the pedigree of a dog I want to buy.


You can ask Cliff if I know dogs or know how to read pedigrees!


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## Sabis mom

Ajay Singh said:


> You can ask Cliff if I know dogs or know how to read pedigrees!


I am very confused about why you want to take this personally.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

@Ajay Singh you will drive yourself mad.. There is a reason this board only has a few good posters left.... Most of us are training our dogs.. Don't waste your time. Those of us out there actively involved know you and your dogs... You have nothing to prove here.. You have done that already on the field and away from the keyboard warriors. ❤


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## Steve Strom

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> @Ajay Singh you will drive yourself mad.. There is a reason this board only has a few good posters left.... Most of us are training our dogs.. Don't waste your time. Those of us out there actively involved know you and your dogs... You have nothing to prove here.. You have done that already on the field and away from the keyboard warriors. ❤


Its kinda fun though, when forum theory gets run over by real life.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Steve Strom said:


> Its kinda fun though, when forum theory gets run over by real life.


Yup. Sad because 12 years ago when I joined seeking help with my first dog so many great posters help me and really opened the door for me. Several I am close friends with and others we still see at trials or seminars or even chat on FB with... 

Such a change... Very sad. 

I come back every once in awhile to check it out and mostly check on a few posters.. You being one of them as I respect you and what you say.


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## Sabis mom

What's really sad is the attitudes. The very same attitudes that convinced me I want nothing to do with sport people. You all come across as arrogant and snotty. Reminds me a lot of high school. Instead of sharing knowledge all anybody every gets is come out and join our club, buy dogs from club members, train at our club. It's like a freaking cult! 
Its a sport! It's a game! get over it. So you train for it and work for it. So do hockey players and tennis players. It's still just a game.
I made an honest attempt to get info and got told to join a club. I'm in NORTH BAY! I have neither the time nor the money to drive 3.5 hours each way to the closest club twice a week. Nor do I want to. Why should every single person who owns a German Shepherd have to play the same game? 
So instead of being weirdos why don't you just share what you know with people who ask and open yourselves up to the possibility that maybe someone else might have a different opinion, and thats ok.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Haha.. Now who is taking things personal?

I see a lot of people online posting information and asking questions and instead of putting in the work want to question those that are...

I am happy (and do quite a bit) to help people who want to learn but you can't do that from a keyboard and a few shots of a pedigree and online videos.. These are living animals. 

You want to learn - then put the work in... I drive several hours each week after working 50hrs at my day job. Its a lifestyle.

Don't want to do it... Or can't.. Then well.. Youu don't get the benefits of the experience or knowledge you gain when you do.

Your choice. 🤷


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## Sabis mom

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Haha.. Now who is taking things personal?
> 
> I see a lot of people online posting information and asking questions and instead of putting in the work want to question those that are...
> 
> I am happy (and do quite a bit) to help people who want to learn but you can't do that from a keyboard and a few shots of a pedigree and online videos.. These are living animals.
> 
> You want to learn - then put the work in... I drive several hours each week after working 50hrs at my day job. Its a lifestyle.
> 
> Don't want to do it... Or can't.. Then well.. Youu don't get the benefits of the experience or knowledge you gain when you do.
> 
> Your choice. 🤷


It's funny that you think that. And sort of sad. Giving people information shouldn't be a big deal. Helping people should have a price. 
Who are you to decide that people haven't put in the work? How do you know people do nothing? 
you driving several hours a week is a long way from a 7-8 hour round trip. One of the new members on this forum is not far from here. He is a young man who's parents said he could get GSD. But he came here for opinions on breeders and got told to join a club. His town doesn't have a club. He's 40 minutes north of me. 
So he doesn't get the dog he wanted because he can't do IPO/IPG or whatever it's called. 
Someone you all seem to think is awesome was fudging paperwork 20 years ago. There is your pedigree studying. And thats not hearsay. Saw it with my own two eyeballs. Might put a different spin on stuff you think you know.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Always enjoy your posts.. You seem to know me so well.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Sabis mom said:


> What's really sad is the attitudes. The very same attitudes that convinced me I want nothing to do with sport people. You all come across as arrogant and snotty. Reminds me a lot of high school. Instead of sharing knowledge all anybody every gets is come out and join our club, buy dogs from club members, train at our club. It's like a freaking cult!
> Its a sport! It's a game! get over it. So you train for it and work for it. So do hockey players and tennis players. It's still just a game.
> I made an honest attempt to get info and got told to join a club. I'm in NORTH BAY! I have neither the time nor the money to drive 3.5 hours each way to the closest club twice a week. Nor do I want to. Why should every single person who owns a German Shepherd have to play the same game?
> So instead of being weirdos why don't you just share what you know with people who ask and open yourselves up to the possibility that maybe someone else might have a different opinion, and thats ok.


At least on here....I agree...terrible snobby attitudes.

In real life, I dont know. But what I've read on here has pretty much turned me off to ever wanting to do bite sports. I've considered trying to do IGP one day but I just dont think I could get past the tracking. I just hate how they do it, and I feel like it would take all the fun out of it for me and it's my favorite thing to do.

I took my white dog to a seminar with a super respected trainer. The seminar was not about bitesports but a topic that I was interested in. I can't tell you how nervous I was after all the bashing on here that this guy was gonna laugh me right off the field for bringing a mellow, white dog to his seminar.

The first thing he said to me was "ah! A white shepherd! I went to (some country I can't remember) to do a seminar just for the whites and there were some nice dogs there". Or something like that. This is my loose paraphrase from several years ago. But he was welcoming and not a you know what despite that me and my dog were surely never going to be on a podium anywhere.

People were nice. Most of the dogs were malinois. 

So, I often think of that when the forum starts bashing or being snobby.

Time to log off and go find some real people to train with who respect everybody who is trying regardless of what they are trying at or what line dog they are working with.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Edit to my previous post. SOME snobby attitudes. There are some people on here who obviously have a lot of experience who never seem to talk down to other people.


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## Steve Strom

I'm sarcastic, disrespectful, and insulting. Never arrogant and snotty. I'm also not rediculously dismissive of things I've never done. I'll never claim any one thing is the absolute definition of what matters with German Shepherds or any other dogs. I will consistently recommend seeing dogs and meeting people in any venues, and specifically IPO clubs if you have any interest in it.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

I am blunt... If I say something it's because I've lived it or watched it happen in person. 

I wanted to learn more 12 years ago but was not able financially or timewise to make the commitment.. So waited. Did all I could to learn and REALLY paid attention to those who were successful both in the sportS our breed is known for and did all I could to make connections. Now I am very involved...

I want to travel and know the world but hate flying.. So I took up a new hobby...


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## Sabis mom

Steve Strom said:


> I'm sarcastic, disrespectful, and insulting. Never arrogant and snotty. I'm also not rediculously dismissive of things I've never done. I'll never claim any one thing is the absolute definition of what matters with German Shepherds or any other dogs. I will consistently recommend seeing dogs and meeting people in any venues, and specifically IPO clubs if you have any interest in it.


I'm never dismissive of things I have not done, until the people who should be teachers become dismissive of me.
You were a huge help when I hit a wall with Shadow, and I have repeatedly acknowledged that you pushed me to succeed. And explained why it would work when I was hesitant. Your reasoning made sense. Can't argue with sense. 

But as someone who handled working dogs for over a decade I get a bit irked when people tell me that the only way to learn about the dogs is to compete in a sport. None of my partners would have done well at it but all were very good at their jobs. IPO isn't a breed test anymore. It absolutely requires work and training, never disputed that but teaching a dog a routine is a test of training.
One of them sold to a gentleman who wanted to trial with him. It did not go well. I am always happy to be anywhere there are dogs, whatever they are doing. I spent enough time around biting dogs it isn't something I want to do for fun.


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## Steve Strom

Sabis mom said:


> But as someone who handled working dogs for over a decade I get a bit irked when people tell me that the only way to learn about the dogs is to compete in a sport. None of my partners would have done well at it but all were very good at their jobs. IPO isn't a breed test anymore. It absolutely requires work and training, never disputed that but teaching a dog a routine is a test of training.


I'm no teacher, trainer, competitor, nothing. All I ever claim is to be someone who likes talking about dogs and I've never said the only way to learn about dogs is any sport, only that things like that are something tangible that you can verify. The point I make, or try to, isn't that IPO is strictly a breed test. What I say is watch the dogs do it. They aren't all the same and its not all just training or only that a dog can be trained. 70 points means 2 very different things with very different dogs. Its impossible to dismiss every dog that does well in IPO as just a "Sport dog" and they aren't just performing for a judge. 

Jeremy bred Kimber to one of the most successful Sport dogs in the country and got results that cover just about everything people post about looking for.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

^^^This!


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## Nscullin

Steve Strom said:


> I'm no teacher, trainer, competitor, nothing. All I ever claim is to be someone who likes talking about dogs and I've never said the only way to learn about dogs is any sport, only that things like that are something tangible that you can verify. The point I make, or try to, isn't that IPO is strictly a breed test. What I say is watch the dogs do it. They aren't all the same and its not all just training or only that a dog can be trained. 70 points means 2 very different things with very different dogs. Its impossible to dismiss every dog that does well in IPO as just a "Sport dog" and they aren't just performing for a judge.
> 
> Jeremy bred Kimber to one of the most successful Sport dogs in the country and got results that cover just about everything people post about looking for.


Which dog did he breed to? Just curious 


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## Steve Strom

Ace vom Haus Tyson | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog


You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Ace vom Haus Tyson at working-dog.



en.working-dog.com


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## Nscullin

Steve Strom said:


> Ace vom Haus Tyson | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog
> 
> 
> You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Ace vom Haus Tyson at working-dog.
> 
> 
> 
> en.working-dog.com


Nice!


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## Sabis mom

Steve Strom said:


> I'm no teacher, trainer, competitor, nothing. All I ever claim is to be someone who likes talking about dogs and I've never said the only way to learn about dogs is any sport, only that things like that are something tangible that you can verify. The point I make, or try to, isn't that IPO is strictly a breed test. What I say is watch the dogs do it. They aren't all the same and its not all just training or only that a dog can be trained. 70 points means 2 very different things with very different dogs. Its impossible to dismiss every dog that does well in IPO as just a "Sport dog" and they aren't just performing for a judge.
> 
> Jeremy bred Kimber to one of the most successful Sport dogs in the country and got results that cover just about everything people post about looking for.


Yes he did. But look at the research and years and hard work he put into producing them. He found a dog that complimented Kimber perfectly. In all ways and he did it twice and then he absolutely dedicated himself to putting a foundation on those pups that would serve them anywhere, doing anything. And then he very diligently found perfect homes for each and every one. Even if it meant keeping them with him for months. He did not breed Kimber to that dog just because he was successful. He studied pedigrees and temperament and health and ability and chose what he needed. I say he but it was a team effort.
I have watched countless trials and training sessions. I have attended club training days. Of course not all are "just sport dogs", just like all breeders aren't breeding just for one thing. Just like not all clubs are venues to flog a breeders pups, but lots are. 
And very often the dogs that are triumphant on the field are weaker dogs with very skilled handlers and trainers.


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## Steve Strom

I surrender. Weaker dogs, I give. They don't have a white flag emoji on here, but I'm waving it.


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## Sabis mom

Steve Strom said:


> I surrender. Weaker dogs, I give. They don't have a white flag emoji on here, but I'm waving it.


Why would you do that? You honestly going to tell me there are not stronger dogs that aren't scoring as well because of training?


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## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> Why would you do that? You honestly going to tell me there are not stronger dogs that aren't scoring as well because of training?


Ace is an interesting case. I’ve never once heard anyone describe him as a points dog or sports dog. If you look at his pedigree, there’s a long line of dogs with similar descriptions. It took a lot of training for him to as successful. He’s a dog that always comes to mind when people say sport dogs can’t do this or aren’t that.


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## Steve Strom

Bearshandler said:


> Ace is an interesting case. I’ve never once heard anyone describe him as a points dog or sports dog. If you look at his pedigree, there’s a long line of dogs with similar descriptions. It took a lot of training for him to as successful. He’s a dog that always comes to mind when people say sport dogs can’t do this or aren’t that.


My only point about him was that you can't define these dogs with these absolute terms.


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## Sabis mom

Steve Strom said:


> My only point about him was that you can't define these dogs with these absolute terms.


I absolutely agree.


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## Ajay Singh

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> @Ajay Singh you will drive yourself mad.. There is a reason this board only has a few good posters left.... Most of us are training our dogs.. Don't waste your time. Those of us out there actively involved know you and your dogs... You have nothing to prove here.. You have done that already on the field and away from the keyboard warriors. ❤


Thank you


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## onyx'girl

reading all these posts makes me wish I was younger and had a do over with my first well bred working line dog. Sport isn't the same as Covid has limited travel and trials. Sadly the politics of sport and our country has also caused quite a division for travel and trials. I have a young dog now, and my enthusiasm for working him is a challenge. He is a great dog, but this environment right now has me discouraged to continue to train, travel or engage in schutzhund(yes that is what I still call it). Thankfully I do have a good small group of fellow trainers to travel to....if I didn't have them, I'd be SOL and no regrets.


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## Centurin

Well, this has certainly been an interesting read.


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Centurin said:


> Well, this has certainly been an interesting read.


A(very) little bit of it has. The rest has been a very nice example of why this forum is much less informative and interesting than it used to be.


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## Ajay Singh

Sabis mom said:


> What's really sad is the attitudes. The very same attitudes that convinced me I want nothing to do with sport people. You all come across as arrogant and snotty. Reminds me a lot of high school. Instead of sharing knowledge all anybody every gets is come out and join our club, buy dogs from club members, train at our club. It's like a freaking cult!
> Its a sport! It's a game! get over it. So you train for it and work for it. So do hockey players and tennis players. It's still just a game.
> I made an honest attempt to get info and got told to join a club. I'm in NORTH BAY! I have neither the time nor the money to drive 3.5 hours each way to the closest club twice a week. Nor do I want to. Why should every single person who owns a German Shepherd have to play the same game?
> So instead of being weirdos why don't you just share what you know with people who ask and open yourselves up to the possibility that maybe someone else might have a different opinion, and thats ok.


Not all sport people are arrogant and snooty but just like the rest of the society, some of them are willing to share their knowledge and some don't. Some don't because they don't want to freely share the knowledge because they had to work hard to acquire it themselves. Others don't because they may not know it to the point where they could share. Regardless of the reason, knowledge should be shared with people who value it and who have taken steps to educate themselves. A number of times the classroom for learn dogs is outdoors and a lot of people want to sit in front of the computer and learn it. You can learn a few things by sitting in front of their computer screen but real knowledge comes from hands on work. I dont think your impression of the sport community is entirely correct but it is true that we get so busy with our own dogs that we dont spare enough time to help the community.


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## Sabis mom

Ajay Singh said:


> Not all sport people are arrogant and snooty but just like the rest of the society, some of them are willing to share their knowledge and some don't. Some don't because they don't want to freely share the knowledge because they had to work hard to acquire it themselves. Others don't because they may not know it to the point where they could share. Regardless of the reason, knowledge should be shared with people who value it and who have taken steps to educate themselves. A number of times the classroom for learn dogs is outdoors and a lot of people want to sit in front of the computer and learn it. You can learn a few things by sitting in front of their computer screen but real knowledge comes from hands on work. I dont think your impression of the sport community is entirely correct but it is true that we get so busy with our own dogs that we dont spare enough time to help the community.


Ajay I never said all people were like that, any more then I said all sport dogs were only that. I don't make statements like that. I have attended trials, I have met with club members and I have attended training days. I know that a good many working dogs fail to impress in sport and I know a good many sport dogs are not capable of work. 
Not all people enjoy or have access to the same things. 
I was a dog handler for years, I don't just sit at a computer screen. Plus I've handled more crappy, nervy, screwed up dogs then most people ever see. 
I am always happy to discuss dogs, or different training theories.


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## Bearshandler

The thing that irritates me the most here is people who feel they have the ability to insult and demean someone else, their dog, or their training here yet never even remotely post their own dog or training. If you want to come out and play that role, you should at least be willing to prove you have the (insert pg term) to back it up. Don’t say that me and everyone I work with are terrible at training and don’t know what we’re doing if you aren’t willing to put yourself out there. That’s what I think of “keyboard warriors” here.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Ajay Singh said:


> The study of the pedigree is nothing more than a good guess. It is hard to know all the dogs in the pedigree and sometimes the opinions one hears are snapshots in a dog's life. Sometimes they are not accurate and sometimes things are lost in translation. The actual accounts come from people who live with the dogs which are rare.


I know nothing about pedigrees so I don't have anything useful to add to this discussion, but this comment in particular resonates with me. Two different people privately shared reservations with me about my current dog's pedigree shortly before I got her as a puppy - one about a potential red flag on the dam's side, the other about a potential red flag on the sire's side. Yay! 😳

While I appreciate them taking the time to do that, none of their concerns have been even remotely been born out. I partly based my decision on this litter from what the breeder said about the dam, who was everything she'd ever wanted in a dog. She'd lived with, trained, and competed with this dog for nearly five years. We spent quite a bit of time discussing what I was looking for (and also absolutely did not want), and It also sounded like everything _I'd_ want in a dog too. She breeds very rarely, and this pairing was carefully chosen to produce her next working dog. She ended up keeping two of the four puppies, one for herself, and her husband was not willing to let one of the other ones go so she's training that one too. Also, the puppies were a month old when I found out about the litter from a friend who co-owns the sire, so I was able to make a decision based on the breeder's observations of the puppies. 

I am so glad that I didn't let theoretical pedigree discussions change my mind about getting Cava. My husband grew up with shepherds and he and I have had them together since 1986. She is the best dog we've ever had. Fabulous focus and drives, sweet and social, super high enthusiasm and engagement, extremely biddable, not a destructive chewer, not at all reactive, LOVES training and learning new things, she checks off all my boxes. She basically has all the best qualities of our previous dogs and none of the worst qualities, and her bright, happy, cheerful personality is exactly what we needed when dealing with Halo's decline from DM and Keefer's increased age and infirmity and their ultimate loss. Pedigrees may tell you a lot but they don't tell you everything.


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## Steve Strom

Ajay Singh said:


> The only way to look at the pedigree is from the left to right because parents have the most influence on the pups and then the grandparents and successive generations. Once in a while the pup may be more like his grandparents or great grandparents but that is rare.


I like this part a lot too.


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## Nscullin

Steve Strom said:


> I like this part a lot too.


Interesting that this comes up bc I listened to an interview recently where balabanov said something to the effect of, “parents matter but they’re not all that matters” just food for thought


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## Steve Strom

Nscullin said:


> Interesting that this comes up bc I listened to an interview recently where balabanov said something to the effect of, “parents matter but they’re not all that matters” just food for thought
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I look at it as a question of how much. The parents are where I think you see what's still there. The previous dogs matter because thats where it came from, but to me if its not still there in the direct parents, I'm not gambling on it reappearing, even though you do sometimes see a kind of throwback. I think thats a little unpredictable.


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## Nscullin

Steve Strom said:


> I look at it as a question of how much. The parents are where I think you see what's still there. The previous dogs matter because thats where it came from, but to me if its not still there in the direct parents, I'm not gambling on it reappearing, even though you do sometimes see a kind of throwback. I think thats a little unpredictable.


Yep, that and it still all goes back to the old nature vs nurture debate as well. I’m not choosing sides merely adding fuel to the fire lol. 


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## Fodder

the topic of breeding is far far too complex for me and i don’t envy breeders, the good ones.

what i will say, working for a service dog organization with their own breeding program....

our breeder dogs produce guide dogs and not once do they ever perform guidework themselves. current success rate is around 60% (temperament & health combined). interpret that how you will.

also, having been there closing in on 10yrs, becoming familiar with many of the past breeders and personally training about 20 dogs a year - i can absolutely spot traits and trends from grandparents several generations back. that said - i’ve also trained littermates along side teammates who were also training littermates (raised with nearly identical protocols the first year) and have observed very different dogs. again, interpret that as you will.

just adding fuel to the fire alongside @Nscullin 😁


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## Steve Strom

Fodder said:


> the topic of breeding is far far too complex for me and i don’t envy breeders, the good ones.
> 
> what i will say, working for a service dog organization with their own breeding program....
> 
> our breeder dogs produce guide dogs and not once do they ever perform guidework themselves. current success rate is around 60% (temperament & health combined). interpret that how you will.
> 
> also, having been there closing in on 10yrs, becoming familiar with many of the past breeders and personally training about 20 dogs a year - i can absolutely spot traits and trends from grandparents several generations back. that said - i’ve also trained littermates along side teammates who were also training littermates (raised with nearly identical protocols the first year) and have observed very different dogs. again, interpret that as you will.
> 
> just adding fuel to the fire alongside @Nscullin 😁


Do you ever breed the 40% that wash? I'd guess its still a pretty controlled sample of dogs being bred based on success of the liters?


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## BigOzzy2018

I will ad I picked the breeding that produced Ozzy because of his grandparents not his parents then I met the parents since that is a must for me and when I met the 2 males that were best I picked his brother. I went back 2 weeks later and picked Ozzy. It’s not all about the pedigree but it’s the first step and still no guarantee but I got the best of the best.

Also neither of Ozzy’s parents were titled the rest of his pedigree was.


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## Fodder

Steve Strom said:


> Do you ever breed the 40% that wash? I'd guess its still a pretty controlled sample of dogs being bred based on success of the liters?


well the success rate is overall, not litter to litter. that’s tracked differently. sires and dams have to have a higher individual success rate to remain as breeders. the males specifically are bred a number of times then placed on hold for almost 2yrs to see how they produce. the 60% that i spoke of initially is for guides, and since they’re all altered before they enter harness training, those that wash will have already been altered as well.


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## Sabis mom

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I will ad I picked the breeding that produced Ozzy because of his grandparents not his parents then I met the parents since that is a must for me and when I met the 2 males that were best I picked his brother. I went back 2 weeks later and picked Ozzy. It’s not all about the pedigree but it’s the first step and still no guarantee but I got the best of the best.
> 
> Also neither of Ozzy’s parents were titled the rest of his pedigree was.


I don't care! Oz Man rules and you used my favorite picture!


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## BigOzzy2018

Sabis mom said:


> I don't care! Oz Man rules and you used my favorite picture!


Lol I did just for you.


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## Steve Strom

Fodder said:


> well the success rate is overall, not litter to litter. that’s tracked differently. sires and dams have to have a higher individual success rate to remain as breeders. the males specifically are bred a number of times then placed on hold for almost 2yrs to see how they produce. the 60% that i spoke of initially is for guides, and since they’re all altered before they enter harness training, those that wash will have already been altered as well.


Thats pretty interesting, a very well controlled system.


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## Fodder

Steve Strom said:


> Thats pretty interesting, a very well controlled system.


i joke all the time and call them genetically engineered labs!
interestingly, and not sure why, but i tend to recognize the family traits in golden retrievers more 🤔 
they’d bred their last GSDs just over a year before i started.


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## Nscullin

Steve Strom said:


> Thats pretty interesting, a very well controlled system.


Very, I agree. Also interesting bc I’ve read (no first hand experience, so take it for what it’s worth), that the success rate of service dogs was around 50% in the past. This means we’re moving in the right direction but not overwhelmingly. It shows the variation that can be produced by a dam and sire. 


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## Cassidy's Mom

There’s a really good movie called Pick of the Litter on Netflix about breeding, raising, and training service dogs if anyone is interested in the process. https://www.netflix.com/title/81004438


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## BigOzzy2018

I’ve heard that repeat breedings are not desired or not done a lot given the variance even in repeat breedings. I would assume hard to see what one produces if you repeat litter after litter.


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## Fodder

Nscullin said:


> Very, I agree. Also interesting bc I’ve read (no first hand experience, so take it for what it’s worth), that the success rate of service dogs was around 50% in the past. This means we’re moving in the right direction but not overwhelmingly. It shows the variation that can be produced by a dam and sire.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


it fluctuates. we get annual reports (for our organization, not the broader group). also, depending on who you’re talking to, different departments calculate their success rates differently. like i mentioned, there’s the individual rates of sire/dam. puppy raising considers any dog that enters training or breeder evals a success for their group. training looks at dogs that enter training, become guides and remain in the field through the first year.... breeding dept, which is closest to the overall success rate looks at # of puppies produced and how many of those either become guides or breeders. i’ve seen numbers in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s over the years. obviously, once you’re in the 40’s, it can’t be fixed overnight. the bonus (again speaking just for the organization i work for...) we’re partnered with 11 other non guide dog service dog organizations that don’t have their own breeding programs and a fair amount of our washes are suitable for those jobs and are donated.


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## Fodder

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I’ve heard that repeat breedings are not desired or not done a lot given the variance even in repeat breedings. I would assume hard to see what one produces if you repeat litter after litter.


i personally am a fan of repeat breedings (from a consumer standpoint). there is a breeder that’s local to me and does this ever so often. it’s one of the reasons i keep my eye on her. a pairing i was hoping for happened last fall and i’ve been tracking a couple of the pups on IG. the timing wasn’t right for me last year but i’d likely jump on it if she bred them again.

i feel like it could be nice for a bitches last litter maybe? idk


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## Thecowboysgirl

Fodder said:


> the topic of breeding is far far too complex for me and i don’t envy breeders, the good ones.
> 
> what i will say, working for a service dog organization with their own breeding program....
> 
> our breeder dogs produce guide dogs and not once do they ever perform guidework themselves. current success rate is around 60% (temperament & health combined). interpret that how you will.
> 
> also, having been there closing in on 10yrs, becoming familiar with many of the past breeders and personally training about 20 dogs a year - i can absolutely spot traits and trends from grandparents several generations back. that said - i’ve also trained littermates along side teammates who were also training littermates (raised with nearly identical protocols the first year) and have observed very different dogs. again, interpret that as you will.
> 
> just adding fuel to the fire alongside @Nscullin 😁


How do they choose which dogs are used to breed?


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## BigOzzy2018

Fodder said:


> i personally am a fan of repeat breedings (from a consumer standpoint). there is a breeder that’s local to me and does this ever so often. it’s one of the reasons i keep my eye on her. a pairing i was hoping for happened last fall and i’ve been tracking a couple of the pups on IG. the timing wasn’t right for me last year but i’d likely jump on it if she bred them again.
> 
> i feel like it could be nice for a bitches last litter maybe? idk


I know it’s fine but you can get an awesome litter the 1st time but the 2nd could be totally different. That’s what I’m told anyway.


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## Fodder

Thecowboysgirl said:


> How do they choose which dogs are used to breed?


- EBV% (estimated breeding value based on pedigree and current breeding stock to ensure diversity)

- 15-16 months of monthly reports that are filled out by puppy raisers (health, house behavior, body handling, socialization and training notes - this is standard for all dogs in the program)

- kennel notes (behavior, adjustment, appetite, food motivation, noises, new handlers, strange dogs, physical exams, resource guarding)

- health clearances (hip/elbow x rays, bloodwork, conformation eval, eye exams, heart exams)

- evaluation walk. essentially a walk downtown with a new handler, no food/toys, no special training equipment, while they’re exposed to a variety of stimulus to assess things like equipment sensitivity, distraction level, stamina, surface avoidance, scent interest, reactions to heavy traffic, construction sounds, unusual ppl, body language, stairs, elevators, slippery floors, etc.

...that said, i’m sure there’s some things i missed since i’m writing from memory and it’s not a part of my primary job function. so while i think we see a baseline of temperaments, some of the stress that guide dogs endure in the actual work, the breeders aren’t exposed to that level of pressure, independent thinking, problem solving, initiative, etc.


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## Rionel

Well, I have to say this is one of the more interesting threads I've seen on here! I may have missed it, but did the female breeding mates ever get mentioned? It seems like routinely, the emphasis is mostly centered on the sire lineage in these discussions, and even in some online pedigree listings. When you see missing conformations pictures/images, it's often more the dams are missing and not the dogs. I know some people preach breeding 'extreme to extreme' - high drive to high drive, but I am in a different camp. I think in the end it comes down to pairings for a better complement of the total dog - which dam and sire are matched. And, sadly, I have seen some pretty sad dams used with stellar dogs, just to get litters of registered pups. I would match a hot dog with a more composed bitch, as long as she was stellar otherwise, and the two had complementing lineages. As long as stud providers or breeders continue to throw less than remarkable females at dogs, expect the breed to decline. And kudos to all you people who are seriously continuing the breed to as close to the standard as can be maintained, and to be picky.


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## Bearshandler

I start at the parents and then work back. I like to see traits consistently carry through the dogs in the pedigree. I wouldn’t buy a puppy and expect a trait not in the parents that I want to reappear. It’s a little different when the dog is here and you can see what it is. I would worry about negative traits found further back in the pedigree reappearing. An example, I wouldn’t buy a dog based solely on the working ability of its grandparents. I would skip it based on the health of its grandparents though.


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## Rionel

Bearshandler said:


> I start at the parents and then work back. I like to see traits consistently carry through the dogs in the pedigree. I wouldn’t buy a puppy and expect a trait not in the parents that I want to reappear. It’s a little different when the dog is here and you can see what it is. I would worry about negative traits found further back in the pedigree reappearing. An example, I wouldn’t buy a dog based solely on the working ability of its grandparents. I would skip it based on the health of its grandparents though.


I definitely like seeing as much continuity across a litter and backwards a few generations as possible.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Parents, progeny (if any), pedigree, close related breedings of both sire dam (if any).

Health is always first, temperament and working ability for me are hand-in hand.

I think looking at pedigree is important but over the years I understand seeing the actual dog is just as important. Then you must decifer training vs genetics which you can't do from looking at a paper or a few edited video clips. You need to understand training first before you can strip it away to see the dog in some cases... Especially from very good trainers. What is training and what is the dog? You learn that by watching and participating in the training of many dogs, from many handlers.


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## Centurin

Fodder said:


> i joke all the time and call them genetically engineered labs!


My Maggie was from the Guiding Eyes breeding program and I often said the same thing! She was so mellow and easy-going, I often wondered how she could be a Shepherd.


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