# Alpharoll by mistake?



## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

I just read something that makes me wonder if I've been Alpha rolling Lycan inadvertantly. Basically, I play with him by getting on his back and making raspberry's on his chest. He waves his paws and makes "woo-woo" noises and seems perfectly happy, but I was reading leerburg's site and it appears I've been engaging in a very dangerous alpha roll. It's hard to think of it as being dangerous, however, since he seems to love it. Should I cease and desist, or can I keep doing it since Lycan and I both enjoy the farting noise game. 

Jelpy


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

An alpha roll is a forced activity. If he's happily rolling over and you're not forcing him there and to stay there physically, then there's nothing wrong and it's not an alpha roll.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> An alpha roll is a forced activity. If he's happily rolling over and you're not forcing him there and to stay there physically, then there's nothing wrong and it's not an alpha roll.


That sounds right to me. When Niko and Rosa play, they often get each other on their backs. They don't usually give raspberries though...

But that's an interesting mental picture.

Bet you get a mouthful of hair, eh? Don't do it immediately after applying chapstick!


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Jelpy said:


> I just read something that makes me wonder.... but I was reading leerburg's site and it appears I've been engaging in a very dangerous alpha roll. It's hard to think of it as being dangerous, however, since he seems to love it.


Alpha rolls are not really dangerous if done properly. Lately there’s been a fascist campaign by a bunch of snobs that don’t know much about canines that claim that Alpha rolls are inherently dangerous. Anyone that has any significant knowledge of canines know that alpha rolls are part of normal healthy pack hierarchy (whether it be dogs at the dog park or wolves in the wild). Alpha rolls is one of the main things that keeps peace within the pack. If you have a pack of dogs and if they don’t exhibit proper social behavior like Alpha rolls then you probably have a very dangerous situation ( like sitting on a keg of dynamite). Alpha rolls done properly do no physical or mental harm; it’s a way of establishing rank without becoming violent. Alpha roll is an alpha roll whether it be voluntary or by force. I’ve been raising GSD for 40 years and have observed wolves and coyotes in the wild for 40 years and can tell you for a fact that alpha rolls are natural and part of healthy socialization.
　
Almost every dog would prefer to be top dog. But not every dog can be top dog when there is a group. So it’s important to have a pack hierarchy to keep order and prevent violence. Alpha rolls are as dangerous and is harmful as saluting in the military. Alpha rolls serves a very similar function in a dog pack as saluting in the military. Saluting helps keep order and establish rank in the military; it does not do physical or psychological harm to soldiers.
　
People that insist that alpha rolls are inherently dangerous, don’t know what they are talking about and are bullies. I’ve been alpha rolling dogs for over 40 years and not a single dog has been hurt physically or mentally; quite on the contrary it has helped keep the peace and keep order which has helped prevent injury to the dogs, other animals and humans. If it’s done properly; as you say the dogs typically enjoy it. I’ve seen wolves and coyotes do it in the wild. In the dog park and at home I have seen dogs alpha roll each other much like a wrestling game. People that say that Alpha Rolls are inherently harmful and do not happen in nature; are lying and do not know what they are talking about.
　
People should know they can’t believe everything they read (whether it be in a book or on the Internet) see on TV, hear, etc.… 
　
Alpha Rolls being harmful is an urban legend.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So should we believe you doggone?

I don't believe an alpha roll is the same as saluting.
Many people who do this may be in the fit of anger ~ then it is in a harmful way or for the wrong reason. Especially if you have a dog with an unsteady temperament and doesn't recover from things easily, it can do much damage to a dog with no confidence that is reacting out of fear(then gets alpha-rolled).
As you wrote, _bullies_ ~ those are the ones that maybe people are saying it IS harmful.


There may be times and places for it(though I don't know when), but just to do it to show who's boss is not fair to the dog. 
So it really isn't urban legend if some of the ones doing it are harming their dogs, mentally.
My pack is fine without me showing them who is the boss by alpha rolling them regulary to keep the structure.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

DogGone said:


> People should know they can’t believe everything they read (whether it be in a book or on the Internet)


This is true; you can't believe everything someone spouts out and must use your own common sense to weed through other's verbal nonsense.

I think when the alpha roll is considered dangerous is when you are trying to force it on an aggressive or dominant dog. 

If you dog is happily rolling over for you to give raspberries then you aren't doing anything dangerous or damaging. If they start fighting you then it is time to stop doing it and go heavier on the NILIF and other training.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think there is a major difference between utilizing an alpha roll as a correction and having your dog roll over on his/her back for a belly rub, or play (blowing raspberries). 

Hondo is a 92lb GSD. One of his favorite things to do is sit by my feet while I'm sitting outside on a rocker. I roll him over with my foot and rub my foot up and down his belly while I rock.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> So should we believe you doggone?
> I don't believe an alpha roll is the same as saluting.
> Many people who do this may be in the fit of anger ~ then it is in a harmful way or for the wrong reason. Especially if you have a dog with an unsteady temperament and doesn't recover from things easily, it can do much damage to a dog with no confidence that is reacting out of fear(then gets alpha-rolled).
> As you wrote, _bullies_ ~ those are the ones that maybe people are saying it IS harmful.
> ...


You’re in denial. If you don’t salute properly people can get injured also. If you snap to salute and you’re not a proper distance away from someone you could poke the person you are saluting in the eye or yourself in the eye. But that doesn’t mean that saluting is inherently dangerous.
　
I think things need to be kept in perspective and that all angles should be taken into consideration. Analogy. Regulators think that requiring airliners and airline passengers to keep babies in safety seats increases safety. In shallow analysis of the statistics when you’re in an airplane crash the survival rate is better with the safety seat. However with deeper analysis requiring airliners and airline passengers to keep babies in safety seats would actually likely increase the number of injuries and deaths. You have to analyze and consider all of the causes and effects. The increased costs to airline passengers they would have to pay for extra seats for their infants would be cost prohibitive for many people; so many parents would end up traveling in a less safe method; such as by automobile, bus or train; where injury and fatality is more likely. So legislation that is under the guise of improving safety; is likely to decrease public safety. 
　
I’ve heard many people claim that they don’t need to Alpha roll their dog. However the vast majority of them are unruly and unsafe and dangerous. Not all dogs are the same so not all dogs require the same type of training and discipline. I think you are likely to be like many others and are simply in denial.
　
I’ve had many idiots in denial, lecture me about using alpha rolls, and the use of shock collars. Yet my dog is relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave; yet their dogs are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…. Yet almost every time their dog is getting into trouble they blame someone else instead of their dog and themselves. These idiots like to make up stupid rules; like balls and Frisbees shouldn’t be at the dog park; dogs shouldn’t run, bark and wrestle at a dog park. They insist that no other dogs go near their dog when their dog is drinking; because they allow their dog to be water aggressive; since they are denial they tried to shift the blame onto other people so it’s your fault if their dog becomes water aggressive. These types of people are nurturing bad behavior and are enabling dangerous situations.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> I think when the alpha roll is considered dangerous is when you are trying to force it on an aggressive or dominant dog.


That’s one of the more important times to use a alpha roll. There are always some risks and dangers. Sure there is a remote possibility you might get injured or the dog might get injured doing an alpha roll; however I think it’s more dangerous to allow a dog to be excessively aggressive or dominant. There are always some exceptions to the rule; you probably don’t want to alpha roll a senior or injured dog. A dog that is fearful and/or insecure it best to do it in a gentle but secure fashion. 
　
Every dog is different and every situation is different. So what technique and method is best for a given situation and or dog can very dramatically. And often several different techniques will work just as well. There are particular situations and dogs that certain techniques work better or are outright required to have a decent outcome.
　
　
I use the NILIF method myself however I think it’s dangerous to use it in many cases when you have an aggressive or dominant dog. When a dog is becoming aggressive and a dangerous situation is developing I think it’s best to nip in the bud rather than to let things escalate while you’re trying to negotiate with the dog. I see people trying to leave the dog park for up to an hour at a time because they are negotiating with their dog. I’ve seen people get attacked and I’ve seen dogs get attacked because the owners refuse to properly dominate and discipline their dog. I’ve seen dogs become dangerously dominant and dangerously aggressive because their owners refuse to use proper techniques and instead insist on using only “politically correct” techniques. Several dogs have been killed at local dog parks because owners insisted on only using “politically correct” techniques. I saw a mastiff bite a dog and a human because the owner of the mastiff insisted on babying his dog with “politically correct” techniques; thus he allowed and enabled his dog to be water aggressive, toy aggressive, and food aggressive. The dog was somewhat mentally stable when his wife came alone to the dog park because she did not enable the dominant and aggressive behavior and because she did not baby the dog and she did not try to blame other people for her dogs problems and she allowed other people to discipline her dog. However every time that the husband was a long (his dog was mentally unstable); the husband would not allow other people to discipline his dog and he would not discipline the dog himself; he always blamed other people for his dog’s excessively aggressive and dominant behavior. He was allowing and enabling a 150 pound dog to be excessively aggressive and dominant. I tried to educate the husband however he was stubborn and snobbish and would not listen. The last time his dog attacked another dog it dog also attacked a person and he started yelling and cussing at the person that his dog attacked and he tried to blame the person; that’s when I jumped in and started yelling at the mastiff owner and told him he was wrong and the attack was all his fault. He was still in denial and yelling and cussing at the victim and me; however when I threatened to call the cops and see what their opinion was; he shut up. I haven’t seen him since. After he left, several people came up and patted me on the back and said it was about time that someone stood up to him.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback. I was concerned because it was sounding as if any time you were leaning over your dog it could be considered an alpha roll and trigger an attack. It didn't SEEM like that would be an issue-Lycan is such a clown, he flops over like a sack of potatos at the drop of a hat and he loves to be played with. Um...(scuff scuff) I know the blowing raspberries on his tummy sounds silly but he really loves it. 

Jelpy


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jelpy said:


> I was concerned because it was sounding as if any time you were leaning over your dog it could be considered an alpha roll and trigger an attack.


Do you have a link to the article? It sounds a little exaggerated. Leaning over a dog is considered an act of trying to dominate but with most pets, it isn't a reason to be concerned. I would never do it to a strange dog that you do not know but is certainly ok with Lycan who you know accepts it and doesn't see it as a challenge.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

I can link to the page:

Leerburg | Dog Bites and Dog Attacks
Note - there are some graphic photos in this article
Jean, Admin

There's a whole slew of emails about dog bites and they respond to the letter they get. 

Jelpy


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

Jelpy said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I was concerned because it was sounding as if any time you were leaning over your dog it could be considered an alpha roll and trigger an attack. It didn't SEEM like that would be an issue-Lycan is such a clown, he flops over like a sack of potatos at the drop of a hat and he loves to be played with. Um...(scuff scuff) I know the blowing raspberries on his tummy sounds silly but he really loves it.
> 
> Jelpy


 I can literally lay on top of my 7 yr old dog while she is on her back with her legs in the air. Often, if I am laying on the floor, she will let me lay my head on her chest and rub her belly. I don't look at it as me trying to dominate her, I see it as she trusts me and knows nothing bad is going to happen to her if she is in that position.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Why is it that most people who use examples of wolves in the wild to explain their training techniques (alpha roll) almost always mention that they also use prongs, shock collars etc?

To treat a dog like a wolf may or may not make sense, but if that's the choice people make I would think they would be more intuned to all the dynamics of a wolf pack....and amazingly....

The alpha in a wolf pack hardly ever resorts to putting shock collars on his pack. Oh sure maybe he'll think about buying a shock collar while he's at the wolf supply house, but then he remembers he doesn't have thumbs so signing the credit card bill becomes an issue.  He must alas, resort to the alpha roll. No prongs, no leash pops, no shock collars....go figure.

I'm thinking gently flipping a puppy over and giving it raspberries on it's belly is probably more wolf like than pop, shock and roll methods. Just a thought.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The alpha in a wolf pack hardly ever resorts to putting shock collars on his pack. Oh sure maybe he'll think about buying a shock collar while he's at the wolf supply house, but then he remembers he doesn't have thumbs so signing the credit card bill becomes an issue.  He must alas, resort to the alpha roll. No prongs, no leash pops, no shock collars....go figure.


:rofl:

jelpy


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> ....
> 
> The alpha in a wolf pack hardly ever resorts to putting shock collars on his pack. Oh sure maybe he'll think about buying a shock collar while he's at the wolf supply house, but then he remembers he doesn't have thumbs so signing the credit card bill becomes an issue.  He must alas, resort to the alpha roll. No prongs, no leash pops, no shock collars....go figure.


Ok, here I am at work, being a little sneaky and reading through this thread and then....BAM! I bust out laughing out loud and blow my entire cover.... :spittingcoffee:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jelpy, please continue to have fun with your pup in ANY way that the two of you continue to enjoy. I love your word picture. 

Leaning over a dog could be a dominant position, but socialize your puppy to accept ANYTHING from you -- sounds like you have started already. I can play with my dogs feet, or tail, or ears, or any other part of their body. Yesterday at class Babsy scootched over and pulled something off the ground and was eating it, I went inside her mouth and pulled out a beggin strip, I looked at it, and as it is at the home of a good friend and trainer, I gave it back to Babsy -- not worried that it was tainted in any way. However your dog's disposition is, you should be allowed to do anything with them.

Doggone. I _could _alpha roll any of my dogs. I never have. Why? Because I am not a dog or a wolf or a coyote and my dogs are smart enough to know that. I do not _want _to be alpha. The alpha pack member can be ousted out of the position when they are old or weak or sick. Since I am getting pretty close to that, I'd rather not rule my dogs by brute force, especially since it is entirely unnecessary.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

DogGone said:


> You’re in denial. If you don’t salute properly people can get injured also. If you snap to salute and you’re not a proper distance away from someone you could poke the person you are saluting in the eye or yourself in the eye. But that doesn’t mean that saluting is inherently dangerous.
> 
> I think things need to be kept in perspective and that all angles should be taken into consideration. Analogy. Regulators think that requiring airliners and airline passengers to keep babies in safety seats increases safety. In shallow analysis of the statistics when you’re in an airplane crash the survival rate is better with the safety seat. However with deeper analysis requiring airliners and airline passengers to keep babies in safety seats would actually likely increase the number of injuries and deaths. You have to analyze and consider all of the causes and effects. The increased costs to airline passengers they would have to pay for extra seats for their infants would be cost prohibitive for many people; so many parents would end up traveling in a less safe method; such as by automobile, bus or train; where injury and fatality is more likely. So legislation that is under the guise of improving safety; is likely to decrease public safety.
> 
> ...


the OP was talking about blowing rasberries on the pups belly. 
Doggone, you sure do like to go off on a tangent. Would an alpha roll fix the issues many dogs have, I doubt it....
I am not in denial, not an idiot, don't shift blame and don't enable.
My dogs are very happy and get along fine within their pack.
I don't go to dog parks because of what you decribed above, not worth the hassle to encounter those situations. 
I'd type more to your wonderful diatribe, but the board rules state we shouldn't be distrespectful to other posters.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Quote by DogGone: "I’ve heard many people claim that they don’t need to Alpha roll their dog. However the vast majority of them are unruly and unsafe and dangerous. Not all dogs are the same so not all dogs require the same type of training and discipline. I think you are likely to be like many others and are simply in denial.
　
I’ve had many idiots in denial, lecture me about using alpha rolls, and the use of shock collars. Yet my dog is relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave; yet their dogs are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…. Yet almost every time their dog is getting into trouble they blame someone else instead of their dog and themselves. These idiots like to make up stupid rules; like balls and Frisbees shouldn’t be at the dog park; dogs shouldn’t run, bark and wrestle at a dog park. They insist that no other dogs go near their dog when their dog is drinking; because they allow their dog to be water aggressive; since they are denial they tried to shift the blame onto other people so it’s your fault if their dog becomes water aggressive. These types of people are nurturing bad behavior and are enabling dangerous situations."

Ever think that maybe your dog is "relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave" inspite of poor training methods. Not everyone who does not use shock collars or alpha rolls have dogs that are "food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…."

I think that dogs have different levels of temperament, some have serious issues, others require different management, but to suggest that people who use positive reinforcement and training techniques that do not include physically challenging and overpowering the dog or aids in correcting/punishing the dog, are in denial and have dogs that have serious issues is just wrong. 

People who use _any _method of training can screw that method up, whether the method includes shocking or alpha rolling, or clickers, or praise and treats. So some people trying to do positive reinforcement mess that up, just as people who use alpha rolls mess that up. It has something to do with the handler's ability to do the right thing and the right time, their patience, their persistance.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

well, to clear up one thing: I was semi worried because Lycan is 2 1/2 years old and tips the scale at about 90 pounds now that he's on a raw diet. He's still very puppy like, though. Well, puppy like if the puppy was 2 1/2 years old with big clown feet.

jelpy


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What is his demeaner when you do this. Is he happy and playful. Or is he seriously submissive when you do it? Is he growling and play fighting or wrestling with you. 

i really do not think a dog you have had from a puppy and have done this with all along will suddenly take a chunk out of your face without any warning or external circumstances. i think you're ok with doing it if your dog is happy and playful.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jelpy said:


> I just read something that makes me wonder if I've been Alpha rolling Lycan inadvertantly. Basically, I play with him by getting on his back and making raspberry's on his chest. He waves his paws and makes "woo-woo" noises and seems perfectly happy, but I was reading leerburg's site and it appears I've been engaging in a very dangerous alpha roll. It's hard to think of it as being dangerous, however, since he seems to love it. Should I cease and desist, or can I keep doing it since Lycan and I both enjoy the farting noise game.
> 
> Jelpy


Our dogs must be good at learning all the crazy things that people do to them and seem to tolerate us very well. I wouldn't do a lot of the things that I do to Baron (2 1/2 yo male GSD) to a strange dog but I have no worries whatsoever about him. 

A lot of trainers/behaviorists for example say that you should NEVER hug your dog - it is a very dominance thing. I hug him all the time and he seems to even like it often smiling and licking during the hug and never giving even the least effort to get away from the hug!


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

Well, he wuffs, he licks my face and he does the scratchy motion with his back leg. I got him about four or five months ago from the local pound after I dropped by and he ran over and threw himself at me for a pat on the head. I was convinced this was proof that he was a soul mate until I discovered he greets everyone like that. Big ole' clown. 

Jelpy


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jelpy said:


> Well, he wuffs, he licks my face and he does the scratchy motion with his back leg. I got him about four or five months ago from the local pound after I dropped by and he ran over and threw himself at me for a pat on the head. I was convinced this was proof that he was a soul mate until I discovered he greets everyone like that. Big ole' clown. Jelpy


Sure doesn't sound like he is going to attack! Sounds like he enjoys your play as much as you do!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jelpy said:


> *Well, he wuffs, he licks my face and he does the scratchy motion with his back leg*. I got him about four or five months ago from the local pound after I dropped by and he ran over and threw himself at me for a pat on the head. I was convinced this was proof that he was a soul mate until I discovered he greets everyone like that. Big ole' clown.
> 
> Jelpy


That sounds like he likes it. licking the face could be a submissive thing, but the scratching motion wtih the back leg is usually a tickle thing. In any case he does not seem to be fighting it, squirming away, trying to right himself, as a more dominant dog might. 

I think your fine.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm relieved. I hate to give up the raspberry game. I mean, I know it's silly and all but it's just so fun! Lycan is a sweetie. I wasn't kidding when I said he was a big puppy like dog. Grendel is still a puppy but they play together like same age sibs. Such silly Flurfy balls. (Fluffy + Furry)

Jelpy


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Apologies to the OP for following this off on a tangent. 




DogGone said:


> Alpha rolls are not really dangerous if done properly. Lately there’s been a fascist campaign by a bunch of snobs that don’t know much about canines that claim that Alpha rolls are inherently dangerous.


I may be a snob but I'm certainly not a fascist. I don't know if I know much about canines. Some people think so and some disagree. But I do know that an Alpha Roll can be extremely dangerous if done by the wrong person on the wrong dog. Your face is just a few inches away from the dog's jaws and if he decides that you're NOT going to roll him, it could be painful and disfiguring. 




DogGone said:


> Anyone that has any significant knowledge of canines know that alpha rolls are part of normal healthy pack hierarchy


I'll disagree. I've watched canids at the zoo, watched probably hundreds of TV shows about canids on various natural history shows and have spent countless hours at dog parks and elsewhere watching dogs interacting. I've never seen one dog force another onto his back and then hold him there. I have seen dogs put a foot on another dog's shoulder and then watched as that dog ROLLED HIMSELF to the ground. He was not forced down, he went down voluntarily. 




DogGone said:


> (whether it be dogs at the dog park or wolves in the wild). Alpha rolls is one of the main things that keeps peace within the pack. If you have a pack of dogs and if they don’t exhibit proper social behavior like Alpha rolls then you probably have a very dangerous situation ( like sitting on a keg of dynamite). Alpha rolls done properly do no physical or mental harm; it’s a way of establishing rank without becoming violent. Alpha roll is an alpha roll whether it be voluntary or by force. I’ve been raising GSD for 40 years and have observed wolves and coyotes in the wild for 40 years and can tell you for a fact that alpha rolls are natural and part of healthy socialization.


Since you say this is such a common thing, perhaps you can show us video of it happening. Perhaps video of your dogs doing it to one another or something that someone else has shot that's available on the Net? 




DogGone said:


> Almost every dog would prefer to be top dog.


I don't think so. I think that FEW dogs want to be the top dog. Most would be just as happy or even happier following the alpha. 




DogGone said:


> People that insist that alpha rolls are inherently dangerous, don’t know what they are talking about and are bullies.


I understand how you might think that these folks _"don't know what they're talking about"_ but how did you come to the conclusion that they _"are bullies?"_ 




DogGone said:


> I’ve been alpha rolling dogs for over 40 years and not a single dog has been hurt physically or mentally


It sounds like there is a bully in the works here, but it's not the person who opposes the Alpha Roll. 




DogGone said:


> I





DogGone said:


> f it’s done properly; as you say the dogs typically enjoy it.


Perhaps you might give some thought to describing it in detail. As I understand it and as I've seen it done, NOT ONE DOG has _"enjoy[ed] it."_ 




DogGone said:


> I’ve seen wolves and coyotes do it in the wild. In the dog park and at home I have seen dogs alpha roll each other much like a wrestling game.


An Alpha Roll has nothing to do with _"a wrestling game."_ As you describe it, it's an expression of dominance and there's no _"game"_ in that. 




DogGone said:


> People that say that Alpha Rolls are inherently harmful and do not happen in nature; are lying and do not know what they are talking about.


Perhaps they're merely mistaken or they have an different opinion. Some people think that they are the final arbiter of all knowledge and others realize that they don't have all the answers. 




DogGone said:


> People should know they can’t believe everything they read (whether it be in a book or on the Internet) see on TV, hear, etc.…


Do you mean, kinda like your post? 

CLICK HERE for an article that I wrote on the Alpha Roll. BTW, they came back into popularity with the book by The Monks of New Skete, _How to be Your Dog's Best Friend. _In the second edition of that book, they said that they regretted having written about it and that they no longer recommended doing them.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DogGone said:


> I’ve had many idiots in denial, lecture me about using alpha rolls, and the use of shock collars. Yet my dog is relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave; yet their dogs are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc….


 

I've been training dogs for over 30 years now and have never felt the need to Alpha Roll one dog that I was working with. I did it once to my own dog when I was starting out, when a trainer told me that's what the dog needed. He was wrong. None of the dogs that I train _"are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…. "_




DogGone said:


> Yet almost every time their dog is getting into trouble they blame someone else instead of their dog and themselves. These idiots like to make up stupid rules; like balls and Frisbees shouldn’t be at the dog park; dogs shouldn’t run, bark and wrestle at a dog park. They insist that no other dogs go near their dog when their dog is drinking; because they allow their dog to be water aggressive; since they are denial they tried to shift the blame onto other people so it’s your fault if their dog becomes water aggressive. These types of people are nurturing bad behavior and are enabling dangerous situations.


Perhaps they are but I don't see what any of this has to do with Alpha Rolls. Do you think that if those folks Rolled their dogs that all of their issues would be solved?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lou, what is your opinion on Jelpe's Rasberry Rolls?


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

selzer said:


> Lou, what is your opinion on Jelpe's Rasberry Rolls?


:spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee:

I never thought of it quite that way. I think 'raspberry roll" is a better name than the Raspberry game.

Jelpy


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am agreeing completely with Lou's posts on this thread. I think what you are doing is ok, since the dog seems to be good with it. I would be more comfortable with this if it was a game you played with this dog from say four to six months and on. 

When I rub my girls belly in a spot she kicks that back leg and is having the time of her life. That is what I think is happening here. Just wondering what Lou thinks.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I wish I could read Lou's response... it's very itty bitty font and my glasses are downstairs.

What I can offer is this. 10 years ago I adopted a 2 year old male who was a HARD dog, his name was Luther. 

My husband, being a hard guy, asked around to his other hard guy friends and was told to alpha roll the dog when the dog was being disrespectful to him. All that got him was bit. Thankfully not on the face.

I never tried to roll Luther. He was a big dog, 110 lbs. I'm 110lbs so it wasn't happening. It didn't make sense to me anyway, I used other sneakier alpha tactics I'd read up on, like block his shoulder when he tried to bust through a doorway before me. Show him I'm the alpha by bringing home the food. Cooking it up, you nice dog, I might give you some. He loved food.

From day one, I could give Luther belly rubs, put my face on his chest and my husband used to say his showing me belly was the dogs way of showing me I'm nothing to him. No, it was just his bonding with Mommy. We were tight, it was a quick bonding. I could open the fridge and work the car. He liked these things that I controlled. 

Eventually he'd let my husband rub his belly and they'd wrestle gently. But those early attempts at dominating that dog didn't make it go any easier.

One other note regarding something that I was able to squint out of Lou's post - Luther did roll other dogs. Often. When Morgan was a puppy, she was like a magnet for loose dogs to run up and try to bite her. If a loose dog charged at us, Luther would grab it by the neck, drop it and pin it.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

He is sitting at the desk, giving me a toe cleaning as I type. It tickles and makes me giggle, which causes him to stop and give me that cocked head, quizzical "Baroo?" look. He is such a boof. 

Jelpy


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

so, i couldn't imagine how you were standing
over your dogs back and kissing his stomach?
so your dog is on his back and your kissing his tummy.
your dog wouldn't do it if he didn't like it. you're
not forcing him to do anything. hey, don't tell anybody
but i kiss my dogs tummy also :crazy:.

sometimes my dog will jump on the bed
and partially roll on his back so you can
pet his tummy. 



Jelpy said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I was concerned because it was sounding as if any time you were leaning over your dog it could be considered an alpha roll and trigger an attack. It didn't SEEM like that would be an issue-Lycan is such a clown, he flops over like a sack of potatos at the drop of a hat and he loves to be played with. Um...(scuff scuff) I know the blowing raspberries on his tummy sounds silly but he really loves it.
> 
> Jelpy


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

No, no, I meant he rolls on his back and I give him the 'raspberry roll'. You should have seen the look on his face the first time; I don't know if he was more surprised by the noise or by the way it felt. 

jelpy


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

I hate to ask, but what is an alpha roll?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> Lou, what is your opinion on Jelpe's Rasberry Rolls?


 
I don't think it has anything to do with an Alpha Roll. It just sounds like a dog and owner playing.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

SunCzarina said:


> I wish I could read Lou's response... it's very itty bitty font and my glasses are downstairs.


 
I'm really sorry about that. I'll write bigger. This forum does weird things since the new software came in.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Miikkas mom said:


> I hate to ask, but what is an alpha roll?


 
It's described in my article. I forgot, besides being on my website, it's also "stickied" on this forum. CLICK HERE to see it. 

Here's the nickel version,


> To perform the roll you're supposed to grab the dog by the excess skin around his neck, force him backwards into a sit and then roll him to one side. Some trainers advocate rolling him all the way onto his back. The idea is that you're simulating something that dogs do to one another when the dominant dog is displaying his dominance to the submissive dog.





> But it's just not so. If you watch some dogs at play, for example at a dog park or the zoo, or watch the Discovery Channel. Use a Video Camera (or record the TV) so you can play it back several times. You'll see what at first looks like an alpha roll but when you examine if carefully it's not even close. When dogs do this, the dominant dog doesn't force the submissive dog to do anything. It's the submissive dog who's doing all the work. The dominant dog puts his foot up on the submissive dog's shoulder or back and the submissive dog rolls himself under the dominant dog.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Thank you, Lou Castle for adding your comments. You were very eloquent.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good Karma, I love your avatar with the muppet Rosa. (I cannot believe she pulls you around, little angel.)


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

selzer said:


> Good Karma, I love your avatar with the muppet Rosa. (I cannot believe she pulls you around, little angel.)


I'm pretty sure they're making that up. 

Because you're right, she's a little angel.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

If there were a prize for best avatar, Good Karma would win! :wub:


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

*Jelly roll*

Are you talking about alpha roll or alpha role?? One is a verb and one is a noun.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DogGone said:


> Lately there’s been a fascist campaign by a bunch of snobs....





> *fas·cism *
> –noun
> 1. a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.


Um, no.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

Well, I think it's been renamed the raspberry roll. I believe the term for what I was thinking it was, is Alpha Roll.

Jelpy


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DogGone said:


> I use the NILIF method myself however I think it’s dangerous to use it in many cases when you have an aggressive or dominant dog.


That is absolutely incorrect. There is no way that NILIF is dangerous under any circumstances. If anything, an aggressive or dominant dog needs NILIF more than any other. Rather than trying to physically overpower the dog you teach them that in order to get _anything_ they want they must do what YOU want first. You control all the valuable resources. How can that possibly be dangerous? :thinking:


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

selzer said:


> Good Karma, I love your avatar with the muppet Rosa. (I cannot believe she pulls you around, little angel.)


Rosa suffers from extreme enthusiasm! Well, she's not suffering. She's the happiest dog I've ever met!

P.S. I tried giving her a raspberry roll for fun. I got* massive* kisses in return. Think she liked it!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anyone who thinks that the leader of the pack forcibly rolls fellow pack members onto their backs to assert his dominance shows a fundamental lack of understanding of pack behavior. Submissive behavior is offered up by lower ranking pack members, not forced on them by the alpha. He does not have to go around asserting his status constantly, it's understood and respected. If not, he's not going to be the pack leader for long...

That's why NILIF is so great - dogs who practice deference behaviors on a regular basis _become_ deferent, so encouraging your dog to routinely offer deference behaviors in the form of NILIF is a very good way to reinforce your leadership status. 

If it came down to a physical battle I'm pretty sure that most of us could be easily overpowered by our dogs who may be half our size or less, but who are more than twice as strong and have much bigger teeth.  And yeah, pretty darned dangerous with an aggressive dog!


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm glad she enjoyed it! A silly game but they seem to get a blast out of it. At least Lycan does, anyway. 

Jelpy


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> Most research points towards alpha theory being extremely outdated.


That’s a bunch of manure. I’ve heard a bunch of people make those claims, however the facts prove otherwise. The vast majority of dog attacks that I have seen at the dog park are from owners that refuse to properly dominate their dog and give fair and balanced leadership. Sure it might be more fashionable not to use Alpha leadership techniques; however just because something is fashionable doesn’t mean it’s right. Take urban legends for example. Idiots keep on telling us lies; like hot water will freeze faster than cold water; despite the laws of natural science. Even schools teach urban legends at taxpayer expense; when I was in kindergarten they told us if we had a burn to put butter on it. Putting butter on a burn has a tendency to make it more painful and to make the recovery take longer and increase the chance of infection, though there is some degree of antibiotic properties. Generally the beneficial antibiotic properties of butter is outweighed by the longer recovery time which increases the chance of infection and the increased pain and itching which increases the odds that the patient will scratch and prolong the injury and increase the odds of an infection even more.
　
Like others have pointed out; typically of those that are promoting the anti-alpha myth are those that have a vested interest in denying the truth. 


codmaster said:


> Note the author! very much a Pos only type of person - it is definetly in her best interest for her view of "training" to NOT believe in the idea of a pack and a pack leader. this might have influenced her view of packs.


The most worse and most dangerous dogs that I have seen at the dog park are dogs that are “trained” by professional trainers. Like I said before in this very thread, it wasn’t that long ago that I witnessed an attack on a dog and a human; because the owner refused to be an alpha and refused to properly dominate and discipline their dog.


DogGone said:


> I use the NILIF method myself however I think it’s dangerous to use it in many cases when you have an aggressive or dominant dog. When a dog is becoming aggressive and a dangerous situation is developing I think it’s best to nip in the bud rather than to let things escalate while you’re trying to negotiate with the dog. I see people trying to leave the dog park for up to an hour at a time because they are negotiating with their dog. I’ve seen people get attacked and I’ve seen dogs get attacked because the owners refuse to properly dominate and discipline their dog. I’ve seen dogs become dangerously dominant and dangerously aggressive because their owners refuse to use proper techniques and instead insist on using only “politically correct” techniques. Several dogs have been killed at local dog parks because owners insisted on only using “politically correct” techniques. I saw a mastiff bite a dog and a human because the owner of the mastiff insisted on babying his dog with “politically correct” techniques; thus he allowed and enabled his dog to be water aggressive, toy aggressive, and food aggressive. The dog was somewhat mentally stable when his wife came alone to the dog park because she did not enable the dominant and aggressive behavior and because she did not baby the dog and she did not try to blame other people for her dogs problems and she allowed other people to discipline her dog. However every time that the husband was a long (his dog was mentally unstable); the husband would not allow other people to discipline his dog and he would not discipline the dog himself; he always blamed other people for his dog’s excessively aggressive and dominant behavior. He was allowing and enabling a 150 pound dog to be excessively aggressive and dominant. I tried to educate the husband however he was stubborn and snobbish and would not listen. The last time his dog attacked another dog it dog also attacked a person and he started yelling and cussing at the person that his dog attacked and he tried to blame the person; that’s when I jumped in and started yelling at the mastiff owner and told him he was wrong and the attack was all his fault. He was still in denial and yelling and cussing at the victim and me; however when I threatened to call the cops and see what their opinion was; he shut up. I haven’t seen him since. After he left, several people came up and patted me on the back and said it was about time that someone stood up to him.


I think that unethical trainers are trying to create the myth that being an alpha leader is somehow inherently cruel and ineffective; just so they can drum up more business.
　
It reminds me of a trip that I took to Canada. We checked in a hotel and my father stopped to get a drink at the hotel bar, a drunken Indian was trying to tell my dad that people could not go out in the wilderness without a guide because wolves are inherently aggressive and dangerous and you would inevitably be eaten alive. The drunken Indian was trying to tell us that wolves frequently for no reason attack humans. The drunken Indian was a liar and an idiot that was just trying to scam us into taking him on as a guide. My family have been in the deep wilderness without a guide dozens of times and we have even tracked wolves in bear country; so we know what the reality is. Only once did we hire and Indian guide for a day. Once we hired an honest knowledgeable Indian; and he showed us his cabin and all his hunting gear and how he processed and preserved/stored the spoils of his hunting, fishing and foraging.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Has anyone of you actually used the so called alpha roll, ever?

I never did and probably never will.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Jelpy said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I was concerned because it was sounding as if any time you were leaning over your dog it could be considered an alpha roll and trigger an attack.


If your dog attacks you simply because you lean over it; then you have a dangerous overly dominant dog that shouldn’t be allowed in public until it learns its manners and its place in the hierarchy.
I wouldn’t consider leaning over a dog to be an alpha roll. Though how you did it could be similar to what I call “checking” (analogous to the sport of fencing). Dogs naturally often think of that as a symbol of dominance and or an invitation to come and play. If you have a medical service dog or if you have children you should train your dog not to respond when it is leaned over by humans. When I first got my dog it would often bolt when I would lean over it or step over it. It often considered leaning over it or stepping over it a show of force and/or discipline and/or an invitation to play. I had to teach my dog not to react when I leaned or stepped over my dog; because I am disabled and if the dog bolts she can easily knock me down (and she did a few times at first). I also use the dog for support for getting up off the ground. She is unofficially trained as a medical helper dog. In order for me to get up sometimes I have to lean over her and use her for support; so it took a little bit of training. She now knows that if I step over her she supposed to freeze. She now knows that when I lean over her that she is supposed to brace herself and freeze.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Has anyone of you actually used the so called alpha roll, ever?


I use it. It’s a tool. Like any tool it can be destructive or constructive depending on where when and how you use it and what type of job you are doing. Not all dogs need it. But regretfully there are many attacks and accidents because dogs are not properly dominated, socialized and trained. What training tools you use depends on your dog, and the situation. Even when use the right tool for the right job sometimes there are accidents. Ever hit one of your fingers with a hammer while driving a nail? The thing is to try to best pick out the best tool for a given situation and don’t get snobby, sloppy and careless/reckless. If you have a red zone and/or an unsocialized dog it might try to fight you and you might get bit or attacked when you do the Alpha roll. You need to know that that’s part of the risks. However you need to nip that problem in the bud before it’s allowed to become ingrained and escalate. It’s like with surgery; a successful outcome is not guaranteed; however if you have a serious condition it may be your only chance.
　
For several months there has been a gentleman with a yellow zone Bouvier that has been coming to the dog park. His dog likes to pick up small dogs by the neck and is often overly excited the first few minutes and excessively rough. The way his dog picks up small dogs is reminiscent of how coyotes and wolves kill prairie dogs and groundhogs and such. The Bouvier does not deliver the coup de grace, but comes scarily close. I’m afraid that someday it might follow through and deliver the coup de grace. The gentleman was at his wits end and was thinking about not bringing the dog to the park anymore and I think he was even considering putting the dog down. As a last resort he went out and bought a shock collar and let me try my techniques. I Alpha rolled the dog a few times and shocked the dog three times when it was exhibiting the behavior I thought was dangerous; and the rest of the night it wrestled politely but intensely with the other dogs. The gentleman said it was the most relaxing night he had at the dog park ever.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

When I see people use the term Alpha Roll and then say it's just like DOGS to to each other (the dominant one being the roller) I have to put my $.02 in.

We HUMANS can never ever *EVER * hope to successfully imitate the methods an Alpha dog would use with another dog.

They use their WHOLE body - not just their mouths - to show their dominance.

The flick of their tail (we don't HAVE tails), the way their fur stands up (can you make YOUR hair stand up?), a single glance or a tilt of the head - these are all methods of establishing rank among dogs and we humans CANNOT do them.

To actually use an alpha roll on a dog is just bad communication IMHO.

The best we humans can hope for is to establish a bond with our dogs and be in charge of them.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DogGone said:


> I’ve heard a bunch of people make those claims, however the facts prove otherwise.


If the _"facts proved otherwise"_ the Monks of New Skete would not have retracted their advice about doing Alpha Rolls and I (and others) would not be writing these posts opposing your advice. 




DogGone said:


> The vast majority of dog attacks that I have seen at the dog park are from owners that refuse to properly dominate their dog and give fair and balanced leadership.


There are better, less confrontational ways to establish dominance than with an Alpha Roll. Some are described in the article I've already referred to. And none of them include the very real potential for injury to the owner. 




DogGone said:


> Sure it might be more fashionable not to use Alpha leadership techniques; however just because something is fashionable doesn’t mean it’s right. Take urban legends for example. Idiots keep on telling us lies; like hot water will freeze faster than cold water; despite the laws of natural science.


Remember the comment that you were replying to? The one from Agile GSD, _"Most *research *points towards alpha theory being extremely outdated."_ [Emphasis Added] That has nothing to do with _"fashion."_ 




DogGone said:


> Even schools teach urban legends at taxpayer expense; when I was in kindergarten they told us if we had a burn to put butter on it.


At the time you were taught this it was "state of the art." Just as at one time, doing Alpha Roll's was "state of the art." Like _"butter on a burn"_ we know now better. 




DogGone said:


> Like others have pointed out; typically of those that are promoting the anti-alpha myth are those that have a vested interest in denying the truth.


What's my _"vested interest?"_ 




DogGone said:


> The most worse and most dangerous dogs that I have seen at the dog park are dogs that are “trained” by professional trainers.


Wow! We have vastly different experiences on this and I'd bet that the experience of most of those in this thread mirror mine. I RARELY see _"dangerous dogs ... at the dog park"_ that have been trained by professionals. Perhaps you could describe the dangers and give your definition of "professional trainer?"




DogGone said:


> I think that unethical trainers are trying to create the myth that being an alpha leader is somehow inherently cruel and ineffective; just so they can drum up more business.


I have yet to see anyone in this thread say that _"being an alpha is ... cruel and ineffective."_ I HAVE seen a few say that an Alpha Roll is not the best way to get there. 

I've asked you numerous questions in previous discussions, many in this thread and several in this post. Could you please answer them? How about just the ones in this post?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DogGone said:


> I use it. It’s a tool. Like any tool it can be destructive or constructive depending on where when and how you use it and what type of job you are doing.


It is a tool and like any, it can be misused or abused. But this one, even when used properly, can place the person doing it in danger. 




DogGone said:


> Not all dogs need it.


Like any tool. *NO DOG *needs it! There are perfectly acceptable substitutes and replacements that do a better job and DON'T place the handler in danger. 




DogGone said:


> But regretfully there are many attacks and accidents because dogs are not properly dominated, socialized and trained.


For some reason you write as this was the only tool that can be used to establish dominance. It's not. There are many others and they don't put the handler at risk of injury. 




DogGone said:


> What training tools you use depends on your dog, and the situation.


Yep and when there are better tools available that give the same results you should use the one that is less impacting on the dog and carries with it less risk for the handler. 





DogGone said:


> It’s like with surgery; a successful outcome is not guaranteed; however if you have a serious condition it may be your only chance.


The Alpha Roll is NEVER the _"only chance."_ 





DogGone said:


> I Alpha rolled the dog a few times *and shocked the dog three times when it was exhibiting the behavior I thought was dangerous; *and the rest of the night it wrestled politely but intensely with the other dogs. The gentleman said it was the most relaxing night he had at the dog park ever.


It's very possible that you may have created a far more dangerous situation than before you came along. The dog may simply be concealing *the display *of his aggression, sometimes making it worse for two reasons; first is that, because the display has been shut off, the owner has no warning that the aggression is imminent, and second because, since the behavior has been frustrated it may have been strengthened.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I don't make a habit of alpha rolling, but I think I have seen it work firsthand. Once on a dog chewing a rib bone, and I went to remove the bone. She growled/snapped at me and I just instinctively grabbed her by the neck and pushed her over and held her down till she chilled out. That was the one and only time she ever growled when I went to take food from her, and neither her or I were scarred, disturbed, etc. following that moment in time.

Another time, very recently actually, Tuki was eye-balling a cat then decided to lunge towards it on leash. I grabbed her and put her on her side and held her there for a few seconds until she stayed on her own, no longer staring at the cat. She still eye balls cats but hasn't since lunged towards one.

Whether the term "alpha roll" is used or not, it is the act of making a dog physically submit when it's behavior is unacceptable. Physical submission has definite/ultimate power in the animal world, it can be the difference between life and death. Forget whether dogs do technical "alpha rolls" to each other or not, dogs do not use prong collars or clickers on each other either, but we know they can help in dog training.

Not that Cesar is the end-all be-all, but he uses it and obviously he gets results. Surely it's not his ONLY tool, but it's one of them.

It would be irresponsible for any training authority book etc. to recommend physically overpowering a dog, as YES it's dangerous, it would seem to be a lawsuit in the making. The act of doing it is not the same as recommending others do it. If you cannot pull it off, and if you are not confident about your ability to do it with your dog, then obviously don't try it.

For me, it will be something I'll use when called for, which is very rarely (2-3 times over a dog's life, maybe?), to give the ultimate message that a behavior is completely unacceptable.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

LouCastle said:


> If the _"facts proved otherwise"_ the Monks of New Skete would not have retracted their advice about doing Alpha Rolls and I (and others) would not be writing these posts opposing your advice.


The facts to show otherwise. Why do you base everything on what one sect does? I’ve seen many dogs that have been the product of your type of training that were dangerous and aggressive and people and dogs got injured because of a bad sales pitch/con bashing a rolling/domination/Alpha theory. Another thing that makes me sick and tired is all these politically correct trainers that refuse to properly train problem dogs and instead recommend drugging up dogs and or euthanizing them. Many of the trainers will pass dogs just to get them out of the classes; that they have no business being in public. A dog that is overly dominant and overly aggressive is a dangerous dog and does not be owned and public. If you knew your stuff you should know that. I’m tired of these politically correct “trainers” that takes the cream of the crop and people like me and the dog whisperer have to try to undo the damage that you’ve done. People like me and the dog whisperer have had success with dogs that your techniques have failed on. It’s sad to see people get injured or killed because “trainers” only want to use politically correct techniques. It’s sad to see dogs get injured or killed, because “trainers” only want to use politically correct techniques. It’s sad to see dogs drugged up on tranquilizers, anti-anxiety drugs, mood modifiers because “trainers” only want to use politically correct techniques and they don‘t want to solve or treat the real underlying issues.
I rather to go by the facts and logic; then follow someone with a con that has a financial, political or some other greedy motive.


LouCastle said:


> Like any tool. *NO DOG *needs it! There are perfectly acceptable substitutes and replacements that do a better job and DON'T place the handler in danger.


Wrong. Dogs and people get injured and killed because people refuse to dominate and Alpha roll their dogs. No tool or method comes without a danger. A girl just had to have reconstructive surgery on her face because she excluded domination and alpha rolling and instead chose to use bribery/food reward; the dog got tired of negotiating and bit the girl in the face.


LouCastle said:


> For some reason you write as this was the only tool that can be used to establish dominance.


False. Once again you lie to make unfounded personal attacks. I made it very clear that there are many tools in the toolbox. It’s very clear in the very sentence you quoted that dominance is not exclusive to my toolbox. It’s people like you that make this message board very uncivilized. 


LouCastle said:


> Yep and when there are better tools available that give the same results you should use the one that is less impacting on the dog and carries with it less risk for the handler.


You’re ignoring the fact that people and dogs are getting injured and killed with tools that you allege are less impacting on the dog and have less risk for the handler. It’s best to use the best tool for the job rather than to eliminate a tool because of your prejudice.
Analogy: With your line of thinking it would be “safer” to go bear hunting with a rimfire 22 rifle. It’s safer to use a larger caliber if you’re hunting bear.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

LouCastle said:


> The Alpha Roll is NEVER the _"only chance."_


False. The dog whisperer and many others like us have saved dogs lives because we were able to train and rehabilitate dogs were your politically correct methods had failed. I’ve had several dog owners that claim that they were to every professional dog trainer in the area and either the training didn’t work or the professional trainers refused to take the dogs because they were so dominant and aggressive. We have saved dogs from euthanasia where your lack of tools failed.


LouCastle said:


> It's very possible that you may have created a far more dangerous situation than before you came along. The dog may simply be concealing *the display *of his aggression, sometimes making it worse for two reasons; first is that, because the display has been shut off, the owner has no warning that the aggression is imminent, and second because, since the behavior has been frustrated it may have been strengthened.


Theoretically that is possible. However so far I’ve never had it happen. Whereas I have seen a plethora of dogs and many people get injured because they refuse to be a pack leader. The dog seems happier. The dog is getting to play more now; because previously it spent much of it’s time at the park doing “timeouts”. 



LouCastle said:


> Remember the comment that you were replying to? The one from Agile GSD, _"Most *research *points towards alpha theory being extremely outdated."_ [Emphasis Added] That has nothing to do with _"fashion."_


Just because she made an allegation doesn’t mean it’s true. There is a plethora of so-called research out there that is garbage. People make false claims all the time. I suppose you implicitly trust salesmen, politicians, news, etc…?
There was also research that claimed that Caucasians were a superior race; I suppose you believe that to? “Research” is often bias and flawed; so are the conclusions. Research showed that the world was flat and that man couldn’t fly. Haha


LouCastle said:


> What's my _"vested interest?"_


I’m not sure why you’re ignoring the facts and logic. Financial, political, popularity, attention?


LouCastle said:


> Perhaps you could describe the dangers and give your definition of "professional trainer?"


I already explained the dangers and some of the injuries. So you don’t understand that professional means someone that takes payment?


LouCastle said:


> I have yet to see anyone in this thread say that _"being an alpha is ... cruel and ineffective."_


Did I say it was in this thread? No. Once again you’re making ridiculous assumptions. It may not be directly said in this thread but there is a lot of hemming and hawing about it. It’s a common theme on this message board.
　


Chris Wild said:


> It's inappropriate, cruel,





DinoBlue said:


> I would never do that to any of my dogs it seems cruel.





LouCastle said:


> I've asked you numerous questions in previous discussions, many in this thread and several in this post.


Why should I bother answering so many of your "questions"? Your “questions” are often dishonest out of context unfounded personal attacks. It seems to be pretty common for this message board.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DogGone said:


> Why should I bother answering so many of your "questions"? *Your “questions” are often dishonest out of context unfounded personal attacks. It seems to be pretty common for this message board.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Maybe you would be happier on another message board, one that always agrees with you?
> 
> If you find the perfect board, do them a favor and don't join.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I once had an opportunity to do sort of an "Alpha roll" on a dog that I owned. Fritz was an approx. 13 mo male GSD. He was the son of a GSD who had won the high protection score at the Seiger show, so was a very hard dog. We had him since he was a small puppy and also had another GSD - an American show line female. 
Anyway, Fritz was chewing a bone that I had given to him and I needed to get from him as we were going out and I needed to put him into his crate. I reached down to get it as he was laying on the floor in the hallway in the house. I guess he must have really liked it as he didn't want to give it up and for the first time in his life lifted his lip and actually growled when I reached down and grabbed the end.

Without even thinking about it, I reached down to him and grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and gave him a big shake and at the same time uttered a fierce "NO". That was it! He gave it up and just layed there, and even licked my hand. Never did he try anything like that again - no other lasting impact on him or me. In fact he went on to be a star in the local Sch club right after that.

If I had to think about it, I probably would not have done what I did; but I have to say with hindsight that it was probably what that dog (very young dog) needed at that particular time and with his action.

Wonder what he would have thought if I had backed off from him when he growled his warning?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> If the "facts proved otherwise" the Monks of New Skete would not have retracted their advice about doing Alpha Rolls and I (and others) would not be writing these posts opposing your advice.


 



DogGone said:


> The facts to show otherwise.


Do you mean _"the facts DO [rather than 'to'] show otherwise?"_ 



DogGone said:


> Why do you base everything on what one sect does?


When did I ever say that I base ANYTHING that I do on what the Monks do? I think you're assuming quite a bit here. 



DogGone said:


> I’ve seen many dogs that have been the product of your type of training that were dangerous and aggressive and people and dogs got injured because of a bad sales pitch/con bashing a rolling/domination/Alpha theory.


I don't think that you have any idea of what _"[my] type of training is."_ I've been training dogs that bite for a living (police service dogs) for well over 30 years and have NEVER gotten a handler bitten by his own dog while doing it. 

I have no idea what a _"bad sales pitch/con bashing a rolling/domination/Alpha theory."_ means. Please explain. 



DogGone said:


> Another thing that makes me sick and tired is all these politically correct trainers that refuse to properly train problem dogs and instead recommend drugging up dogs and or euthanizing them.


 
Don't know what this has to do with this discussion. Sound like off−topic venting to me. Feel better now? lol



DogGone said:


> Many of the trainers will pass dogs just to get them out of the classes; that they have no business being in public. A dog that is overly dominant and overly aggressive is a dangerous dog and does not be owned and public.


Ditto. 



DogGone said:


> If you knew your stuff you should know that. I’m tired of these politically correct “trainers” that takes the cream of the crop and people like me and the dog whisperer have to try to undo the damage that you’ve done.


How does _"know[ing] my stuff"_ tell me what you're tired of? Can you tell us of one of my clients whose dogs that I've _"damaged"_ that you or CM has repaired. Are you certified as a _"cream of the crop"_ dog trainer. ROFL. 



DogGone said:


> People like me and the dog whisperer have had success with dogs that your techniques have failed on.


Interesting that now you're claiming that you're in the same league as CM. Since you've made this absurd statement. Please tell us of one of my dogs _"that [my] techniques have failed on, _that you've had _"success with?"_ 



DogGone said:


> It’s sad to see people get injured or killed because “trainers” only want to use politically correct techniques.


ROFLMFAO. I mostly use the Ecollar. It's hardly _"politically correct."_ 

Earlier I wrote,


> Like any tool. *NO DOG *needs it! There are perfectly acceptable substitutes and replacements that do a better job and DON'T place the handler in danger.


 



DogGone said:


> Wrong.


Nope sorry, you're the one who's wrong here . Dogs were being trained for thousands of years before the Alpha Roll came along. And they did quite well without it. 



DogGone said:


> Dogs and people get injured and killed because people refuse to dominate and Alpha roll their dogs.


The insinuation here is that the ONLY way to dominate a dog is to Alpha Roll him. *THAT IS WHAT'S WRONG! *There are many ways to dominate a dog without physically dominating him. If what you say was true it would be impossible for a small owner to dominate a very large aggressive dog. Yet my clients do it all the time WITHOUT the Alpha Roll. 



DogGone said:


> No tool or method comes without a danger.


Some have much more than others. FEW have as much danger as the Alpha Roll. 



DogGone said:


> A girl just had to have reconstructive surgery on her face because she excluded domination and alpha rolling and instead chose to use bribery/food reward; the dog got tired of negotiating and bit the girl in the face.


Please provide more information on this. I'd bet that it's just your opinion as to why this bite occurred and what would have prevented it. In the past when I've asked for support for statements like these that you've made, the silence was deafening. Let's see if this time is any different. But you say something that's quite interesting ... This _"girl ... had to have ... surgery on her face ..."_ are you sure she wasn't doing an Alpha Roll? And how do you know? Were you there? Did you witness this incident or are you quoting from some newspaper article? Wondering if you didn't know the girl and/or the dog, how you know what caused the bite? 

Earlier I wrote,


> For some reason you write as this was the only tool that can be used to establish dominance.


 



DogGone said:


> False.


Please provide anything else besides the Alpha Roll that you've suggested in this thread as a tool/method to establish dominance. 



DogGone said:


> Once again you lie to make unfounded personal attacks.


Somehow I missed the person attack on you. Please show me where I did this. 



DogGone said:


> I made it very clear that there are many tools in the toolbox.


OK. Please show us where you've mentioned them.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> The Alpha Roll is NEVER the "only chance."


 



DogGone said:


> False.


LOVE the way that you state your opinion as if it was fact! lol



DogGone said:


> The dog whisperer and many others like us have saved dogs lives because we were able to train and rehabilitate dogs were your politically correct methods had failed.


Please show us any evidence that any dog that I've ever trained has needed to be _"trained"_ or _"rehabilitate[d] _by you or by CM. Please tell us which of my _"methods"_ are the _"politically correct"_ ones. 



DogGone said:


> I’ve had several dog owners that claim that they were to every professional dog trainer in the area and either the training didn’t work or the professional trainers refused to take the dogs because they were so dominant and aggressive.


I've never turned down a client because their dog was too _"dominant and [or] aggressive."_ 



DogGone said:


> We have saved dogs from euthanasia where your lack of tools failed.


Somehow I doubt this. But first, who is the _"we"_ in your sentence? Do you work with CM? You keep referring to him as if you do. I don't recall seeing anyone assisting him on his TV show, but perhaps I've missed it. 

And since you AGAIN make this absurd statement, please show us some evidence that you've ever had to save a dog _"from euthanasia"_ where my alleged _"lack of tools failed."_ 

Earlier I wrote,


> It's very possible that you may have created a far more dangerous situation than before you came along. The dog may simply be concealing the display of his aggression, sometimes making it worse for two reasons; first is that, because the display has been shut off, the owner has no warning that the aggression is imminent, and second because, since the behavior has been frustrated it may have been strengthened.


 



DogGone said:


> Theoretically that is possible.


The possibility is far more than _"theoretical."_ I've seen it personally several times. 



DogGone said:


> However so far I’ve never had it happen.


What this really means is that your experience is not as wide on this as mine. I've seen it and you have not. 



DogGone said:


> Whereas I have seen a plethora of dogs and many people get injured because they refuse to be a pack leader.


I've seen this too but this is NOT what this discussion is about. It IS about using the Alpha Roll as a tool to establish this dominance. I know that there are better, less dangerous ways to do it and you don't seem to get this. I've seen just as many dogs and handlers injured doing the Alpha Roll as those who have not established dominance. 



DogGone said:


> There was also research that claimed that Caucasians were a superior race; I suppose you believe that to? “Research” is often bias and flawed; so are the conclusions. Research showed that the world was flat and that man couldn’t fly. Haha


I don't believe there was scientific _"research"_ that showed any of these things. Rather they were similar to many things that you've said, *opinions, stated as fact. *

Earlier I wrote,


> What's my "vested interest?"


 



DogGone said:


> I’m not sure why you’re ignoring the facts and logic. Financial, political, popularity, attention?


 
I'm retired and have absolutely nothing to gain financially. BUT YOU OTOH, are still involved in making money from training dogs. YOU, it would seem are the one to gain here. As to _politics. _I'm probably the least politically correct contributor to these discussion. I was in LE for almost 30 years, pretty much proof positive that I don't care one bit about _popularity. _As to _attention, _it would seem that you have just as much to gain. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Perhaps you could describe the dangers and give your definition of "professional trainer?"


 



DogGone said:


> I already explained the dangers and some of the injuries.


I don't think so. Since you disagree, please direct us to the post where you describe _"the dangers and some of the injuries'_ that you have seen _"at the dog park [where those] dogs that are 'trained' by professional trainers."_ 



DogGone said:


> So you don’t understand that professional means someone that takes payment?


So anyone who takes money for training a dog is a "professional" by your definition? So when I'm donating my time, as I often do for SAR and LE, I'm NOT a professional? If someone took payment decades ago but they now train just for fun are they a professional or not? You want to pretend that this is simple, when it's really not. 

Earlier you wrote,


> I think that unethical trainers are trying to create the myth that being an alpha leader is somehow inherently cruel and ineffective; just so they can drum up more business.


 
And I responded,


> I have yet to see anyone in this thread say that "being an alpha is ... cruel and ineffective."


 



DogGone said:


> Did I say it was in this thread? No. Once again you’re making ridiculous assumptions.


I made no such assumption. I merely stated a fact, that no one in this thread has made such a statement. Perhaps you can point us to some other threads where this was said? 

Earlier I wrote,


> I've asked you numerous questions in previous discussions, many in this thread and several in this post.


 



DogGone said:


> Why should I bother answering so many of your "questions"?


Because your persistent evasion and avoidance show us how weak is your argument.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Doggone, have we ever asked what your training credentials are ? If so, sorry I missed it, can you tell us what your training background is?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DogGone said:


> That’s a bunch of manure. I’ve heard a bunch of people make those claims, however the facts prove otherwise. The vast majority of dog attacks that I have seen at the dog park are from owners that refuse to properly dominate their dog and give fair and balanced leadership. Sure it might be more fashionable not to use Alpha leadership techniques; however just because something is fashionable doesn’t mean it’s right. Take urban legends for example. Idiots keep on telling us lies; like hot water will freeze faster than cold water; despite the laws of natural science. Even schools teach urban legends at taxpayer expense; when I was in kindergarten they told us if we had a burn to put butter on it. Putting butter on a burn has a tendency to make it more painful and to make the recovery take longer and increase the chance of infection, though there is some degree of antibiotic properties. Generally the beneficial antibiotic properties of butter is outweighed by the longer recovery time which increases the chance of infection and the increased pain and itching which increases the odds that the patient will scratch and prolong the injury and increase the odds of an infection even more.


I actually have to agree, however I wouldn't call it dominance and leadership, I'd call it proper training. However, at the same time you are able to dominate your dog with training. When I call Yukon off of roughhousing I use a loud voice, such as you heard in the videos and that is clearly dominating my dog. But to do that, they need to be trained first. Dominating itself is just not enough!
　


> Like others have pointed out; typically of those that are promoting the anti-alpha myth are those that have a vested interest in denying the truth.
> 
> The most worse and most dangerous dogs that I have seen at the dog park are dogs that are “trained” by professional trainers. Like I said before in this very thread, it wasn’t that long ago that I witnessed an attack on a dog and a human; because the owner refused to be an alpha and refused to properly dominate and discipline their dog.
> 
> I think that unethical trainers are trying to create the myth that being an alpha leader is somehow inherently cruel and ineffective; just so they can drum up more business.


That is very dangerous. People like that are out there, I have no doubt about it. What makes it so dangerous is that people are extreme about their believes. While I mainly train with positive reinforcement I know when I have to step in between the dogs and show them that I am the boss. You can't just let them get away with everything just because you don't want to use pressure to discipline them. Positive reinforcement, yes but there is a point where you have to raise your voice and say "KNOCK IT OFF! DAMNIT!!!"
I barely correct my dogs physically but sometimes you have no choice. I consider the Alpha Roll as physical correction, a slap on the but is physical correction, a scruffel on the neck is physical correction and while I try not to do any of it I know WHEN to do it and I will do it. 



> Dogs and people get injured and killed because people refuse to dominate and Alpha roll their dogs.


That I have to disagree with. Dogs and people get injured and killed because people don't know their dogs and neither do they train their dogs properly. Alpha roll has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with it. Training, knowing your dog and Obedience is the key. 

I've been talking to a lot of army wives about dogs and a lot of them openly admitted that they can't differ a young dog from an adult dog but they also said that the have owned dogs their whole life. 

THAT is what dogs and people get killed. If you have owned dogs your whole life you should be able to differ a young dog from an adult dog, you should be able to tell different breeds and you should know the basic rules about dogs. You should have had a book about dogs in your hands at least once. 

Ignorance is what people and dogs get killed, not because they never use an alpha roll to discipline a dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I think just because something seems to work (maybe does work in the short run for the moment) like the alpha roll in some situations.........

Doesn't mean that it's the BEST way to always deal with the same situation. So to have it be our default 'this is the way to deal with a strong minded dog' from us because it's the ONLY THING WE KNOW isn't keeping an open mind to other methods that may work just as well and NOT be as stressful and dominating (that may add to our problems in the long run).

In my past 20 years of training my dogs, I know there have been HUGE changes in the way dog classes are taught as well as the books/clinics/information that is now available to teach our dogs exactly the same behaviors. For me, it's the end behaviour I want and if I have to learn to teach in a SMARTER way that may take a bit longer but be kinder and clearer to my dog, then I'm willing to learn those methods.

Coming down on my dog like a ton of bricks in an alpha roll is, for the most part, the 'easy' way to deal with the situation. I don't have to be smart. I don't have to hold back. I don't have to do anything but react in a (to my dog) suddenly insane way that will completely take any 'learning' from the situation and replace it with OH MY GOSH WHAT IS HAPPENING TO MY WORLD OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH. Suddenly my dog will be terrified of me (not respecting me, not finding me a stable leader, but instead a Freakshow of Horrors).

Added to the fact that everytime I've heard people say they have to Alpha Roll their dogs, it's already in a high stressed and out of control situation that should have been avoided in the first place. Then trained in a calmer situation where you can actually teach a dog that is calmer and able to think. 

Almost everyone I know that has a dog that 'suddenly' overreacts so they 'have' no choice but to alpha roll or over correct has been WRONG about the sudden part. It was sudden to the human because we are 'stupid' humans and haven't learned to really read our dogs when they are trying to deal with the stress/situation earlier in their calmer and quieter methods. We just merrily wander along ignoring those signals, making the stress worse, and are AMAZED when the **** breaks loose at the end of the leash!







http://http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB788

Properly socializing our pups. TRAINING our pups as a calm and consistant leader they look to and trust because they know we will deal with what comes up. LEARNING our dogs 'calming' signals so we can help in situations before our dogs react and to help quiet them so they may not react at all...

And I'm not saying we don't need to be strong leaders for our dogs. Just saying that being a good leader isn't always about us being so dominant we have to strike the fear of God into our dogs as the only way to control them. There are better ways for the vast majority of our dogs, but it takes thought, plannning, training for US and not just us taking the easy route (lazy route?) by slamming them into an Alpha Roll.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I think just because something seems to work (maybe does work in the short run for the moment) like the alpha roll in some situations.........
> 
> Doesn't mean that it's the BEST way to always deal with the same situation. So to have it be our default 'this is the way to deal with a strong minded dog' from us because it's the ONLY THING WE KNOW isn't keeping an open mind to other methods that may work just as well and NOT be as stressful and dominating (that may add to our problems in the long run).
> 
> ...


*AMEN! *

Thank you for putting it that way. I tried to say the same thing but you have said it much much much much better.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Is it only an Alpha Roll when you take you dog "off" his/her feet? Or is grabbing him/her by the scruff and "moving" their feet alway considered a partial Alpha Roll?

My GSD is the strong silent type. However, I can change his behavior by changing my body langauge. If I were to Alpha Roll him, it would blow his mind.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

an alpha roll to put it simply, is flipping them on their back and holding them until they submit


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

DogGone said:


> Idiots keep on telling us lies; like hot water will freeze faster than cold water; despite the laws of natural science.




Okay Jelpy, I am soooo sorry to take your thread even more totally off the rails, but my inner science geek has taken control of my body and I must interject. 

What DogGone is referring to is called the Mpemba Effect.
Mpemba effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
_The effect is named for the Tanzanian high-school student Erasto Mpemba. Mpemba first encountered the phenomenon in 1963 in Form 3 of Magamba Secondary School, Tanzania when freezing hot ice cream mix in cookery classes and noticing that they froze before cold mixes._

_At first sight, the behaviour seems contrary to thermodynamics. Many standard physical theory effects contribute to the phenomenon, although no single explanation is conclusive. _

So, long story short:_"Even if the Mpemba effect is real — if hot water can sometimes freeze more quickly than cold — it is not clear whether the explanation would be trivial or illuminating." He pointed out that investigations of the phenomenon need to control a large number of initial parameters (including type and initial temperature of the water, dissolved gas and other impurities, and size, shape and material of the container, and temperature of the refrigerator) and need to settle on a particular method of establishing the time of freezing, all of which might affect the presence or absence of the Mpemba effect. *The required vast multidimensional array of experiments might explain why the effect is not yet understood*._

There I feel much better.

What the heck? I was just in the chat room... Hey! Where are my pants????


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DogGone said:


> The facts to show otherwise. Why do you base everything on what one sect does? I’ve seen many dogs that have been the product of your type of training that were dangerous and aggressive and people and dogs got injured because of a bad sales pitch/con bashing a rolling/domination/Alpha theory. Another thing that makes me sick and tired is all these *politically correct* trainers that refuse to properly train problem dogs and instead recommend drugging up dogs and or euthanizing them. Many of the trainers will pass dogs just to get them out of the classes; that they have no business being in public. A dog that is overly dominant and overly aggressive is a dangerous dog and does not be owned and public. If you knew your stuff you should know that. I’m tired of these *politically correct* “trainers” that takes the cream of the crop and people like me and the dog whisperer have to try to undo the damage that you’ve done. People like me and the dog whisperer have had success with dogs that your techniques have failed on. It’s sad to see people get injured or killed because “trainers” only want to use *politically correct* techniques. It’s sad to see dogs get injured or killed, because “trainers” only want to use *politically correct* techniques. It’s sad to see dogs drugged up on tranquilizers, anti-anxiety drugs, mood modifiers because “trainers” only want to use *politically correct* techniques and they don‘t want to solve or treat the real underlying issues.


Wow "politically correct" used five times in ONE paragraph - I think that's a record! :laugh: And definitely quite a rant.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> Okay Jelpy, I am soooo sorry to take your thread even more totally off the rails, but my inner science geek has taken control of my body and I must interject....


That's okay. I've sorta been watching with awe as this whole thing wound up. It has the hypnotic fascination of watching a truck without brakes hurtle down a hill towards a bus full of nuns. 

Jelpy


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jelpy said:


> It has the hypnotic fascination of watching a truck without brakes hurtle down a hill towards a bus full of nuns.


 
The allure of reading threads like this has never been expressed better.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Jelpy said:


> That's okay. I've sorta been watching with awe as this whole thing wound up. It has the hypnotic fascination of watching a truck without brakes hurtle down a hill towards a bus full of nuns.
> 
> Jelpy


Yeah, one of those things you just know is going to end badly. But hey, I learned all about the Mpemba Effect AND how to properly administer a raspberry roll. So, good all around! Also learned: don't irritate either LouCastle or DogGone.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I didn't know that the technical definition of alpha roll meant turning the dog completely on it's back -- maybe whoever first suggested it publicly suggested that method.

For me, the specifics of the move are not as important as that the owner is forcing the dog to the ground, onto their side or I suppose back. But putting a dog all the way on its back seems to add unnecessary danger and stress to the move.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Coming down on my dog like a ton of bricks in an alpha roll is, for the most part, the 'easy' way to deal with the situation. I don't have to be smart. I don't have to hold back. I don't have to do anything but react in a (to my dog) suddenly insane way that will completely take any 'learning' from the situation and replace it with OH MY GOSH WHAT IS HAPPENING TO MY WORLD OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH. Suddenly my dog will be terrified of me (not respecting me, not finding me a stable leader, but instead a Freakshow of Horrors).


Given that dogs will correct eachother physically, why would you assume the dog would think you have gone nuts and are now unstable if you (quietly) forced it to it's side and held it there? In my experience, and now that I'm reading other's experiences too, the dog figures out that his behavior is not to be repeated, and he moves on with life within seconds.

The "rolls" I've seen on TV, e.g. by Cesar, are not frantic or insane, they are quite calm and the dog gets the message very clearly. By the point an 'roll should/could be used, the dog would normally be amped up anyway and a dominant physical restraint would actually be calming once the dog accepts that the human has taken charge.


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

I think we must remember that dominance is not necesarily achieved by only physical/verbal force. A few posts ago someone mentioned, that the alpha roll is possible because the submissive dog allowed it, not because of physical prowess. This rings true to me. 

We achieve dominance through our everyday interactions and the bond we make with our dogs. We become 'alpha' because we don't allow to chase squirrels or cars (the hunt) but substitute it with a bowl of food. I am not saying that our status is achieved by offering food, but, rather, by satisfying our dogs physical and emotional needs. 

Our dogs are selfish by nature and realize that all the wonderful things in their life happen when we're around: games, training, treats etc. Therefore, they choose to submit to their owners because they offer their best chance at a good life, or in wild, pack terms...chance for survival. 

Consider a dog that is not cared for at all and is simply dominated with alpha rolls and other physical acts, how would he react when he is starving? Would he even consider the bond with his owner or would he simply charge for any item of interest? He follows his instinct to survive. Pack or no pack. Now, how would he react if he knows that we offer and regularly provide items even better than said item of interest? Isn't that his best chance of survival? 

Referring to people getting killed has nothing to do with alpha rolls or any other forms of dominance. There are deeper issues that would cause a dog to reach the level of aggression to acutally kill a person. I think this said it best:


Mrs.K said:


> Ignorance is what people and dogs get killed, not because they never use an alpha roll to discipline a dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

From my article CLICK HERE

_"Want to be an Alpha? Begin by acting like one. Stand up tall and act like a leader. Notice that most dogs are submissive to a good trainer just by him walking onto the field. That's because he knows how to stand, carry himself and talk as a leader. He hasn't alpha rolled your dog. He hasn't kicked your dog's butt, but your dog knows, at a glance, who the alpha is. Use a normal voice. When adult dogs play with other adult dogs they use a certain tone of voice (bark). When puppies play with adults or other puppies pitched they use a high pitched yip. If you use a high pitched voice when playing with or praising your adult dog how do you think he thinks of you? As a mature adult capable of leading him? Or as an immature pack member? Now I'm not saying that he'll immediately become alpha if you praise or talk to him in a high pitched voice but I am saying that you're sending a mixed message to him. One that can put some doubts in his mind as to your exact position in the pack. _

_Being accepted as the alpha doesn't mean that you're the biggest, baddest one in the pack. Anyone who teaches that really doesn't understand what it means to be alpha. In human packs, without the politics, often it's NOT the biggest or strongest one who leads. It's the one who exhibits "leadership qualities." In dog packs it's the same way. _

_Another part of being alpha has to do with food. In the wild the alpha leads the hunt. He decides which animal the pack will kill and when the eating will begin. Generally you provide the food for your dog so that helps him think of you as the alpha. I suggest that when you get a new dog you spend a couple of weeks hand feeding him. That establishes, even more than just putting down a food bowl, that you're providing his food. Don't let him crowd in and 'demand' the food. Make him stay at a respectful distance and wait for you to give it to him, one handful at a time. _

_Another way to be fair and just is to be fair with your correction level. The Ecollar is perfect for this because it allows you to dial in exactly the level of correction that your dog needs. Not too high and not too low. It's difficult for the average handler to consistently give the exact level of correction that a dog needs with a leash and conventional training collar. _

_Play is another way to get this but not the form of play that has the handler throwing a ball for his dog. Watch the Discovery Channel or spend a few hours at the zoo watching wild dogs play. They run, they bump shoulders, they throw hips into one another. Their interaction is quite physical. _

_Another way to establish dominance and one of my favorites is through yielding. I stole the concept from someone who stole it from horse trainers. Yielding is based on the idea that a submissive animal will move out of the way of a dominant animal. Almost ritualistically the dominant animal will force the submissive animal to give way, even if he doesn't need to. It's just a reminder. _

_To do this have the dog on leash and start walking into him. Going head to head is probably best, at first. Don't give any commands, just head towards him. When you get real close start quietly saying "move, move, move," Don't kick him and don't bump into him unless it's absolutely necessary. What you are trying to do is to force him to move by the power of your personality. When you do this make sure that you're looking like the alpha. Stand up straight, shoulders back, head erect. Don't stoop forward to look at your dog, that communicates to him that you're not an alpha. Some may need to practice this in front of a mirror before they try it with their dog. _

_As soon as he does move, step back and praise him lightly. Not enough to break his concentration, but enough so that he knows he got something right. You should see a relaxation of tension in the dog's body. Think of your forward motion as applying pressure. Pressure that the dog can relieve by moving away. At first just one or two steps will relieve the pressure, but as you progress he has to move more to gain relief. _

_As the training progresses you can approach from slightly off to one side, then directly to one side, then from the rear quarter and finally from the rear. When you start this have him move several times in a row. Once he's caught on you can go to about ten times a day. _

_This is so subtle that many people believe that it won't have any affect on the dog, particularly one who's very dominant. But it will have more and better effect than a dozen alpha rolls. And it will establish your position with VERY little chance of a handler challenge or an attack on the handler. _

_If you're going to do an alpha roll you'd better pick the dog you do this on carefully and you'd better make sure that you can kick his ass. You'd also better be ready for a trip to the ER, because sooner or later you're going to miss. _

_It's really too bad that some people are still caught up in using force all the time for all of their training. It's not necessary. It's hard on the dogs, and it's hard on the handler. AND most importantly it doesn't give a good a working relationship with the dog as more subtle, but still effective methods."_


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Well put Lou!

:hug:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Great article: Let's Just Be Humans Training Dogs | Dog Star Daily



> As intriguing as it may be to observe and debate the development of social behavior of dogs (a subject that formed the focus of my research for nearly a decade), dog social structure and behavior actually have very little, if anything, to do with training! Social behavior and dog training are two entirely separate and distinct disciplines and any notions of wolf, or dog, hierarchical social structure, whether hypothetical or real, are simply irrelevant to the training of dogs. Whether we consider a dog to be a subservient, obsequious wimp, or an ultra-mega, alpha-dominant, human-dissing dog that is plotting to take over, first the family and then, the world … we still have to train the little doggie to like people and to respond reliably to basic manners.





> If you don’t know how to train the dog, it’s OK. No biggie. Come and learn how. But please don’t just assume that it’s all the dog’s fault. Don’t reflexively blame your dog. Don’t call your dog names. Don’t assume that your dog is wolfy, or contemplating world domination. And above all, don’t make alpha-dominant excuses to make your dog’s life a misery by psychologically or physically bullying him/her under the guise of dog training. Instead, as a human being with a supposedly superior-functioning brain, give your dog the education that he/she deserves. As humans, we don’t walk on our knuckles when teaching children to read.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

And another: WHY CAN'T DOGS BE DOGS AND PEOPLE BE PEOPLE? | Dog Star Daily



> Like wolves, domestic dogs are social animals (and hence should not be socially isolated) and they have a hierarchical social system. *However, the hierarchy is neither created by, nor necessarily maintained by physical domination, nor is it strictly linear. If anything, the hierarchy is created and enforced by psychological control during development, and the peace of the pack is maintained by the active appeasement rituals of lower-ranking individuals.* In fact, the famous Cambridge and Berkeley zoologist, Dr. Thelma Rowell has suggested that the _status quo_ of social groups is better termed a _subordinance hierarchy_ — a much more precise and descriptive term.
> 
> Yes, most groups of male dogs generally have a surprisingly stable linear hierarchy, but females tend to show significant day-to-day variation and male-female interactions can be extremely unpredictable, with rank-reversals being the norm rather than the exception. Indeed, bitches have virtually rewritten canine hierarchical law with the First Bitch Amendment that states, _“I have it and you don't!”_ Moreover, individual members of a domestic dog pack have special friendships, alliances and bodyguards. And truly confident TopDogs are more than willing to share and even allow underdogs and buddies prime access to bones and favored sleeping places. To say one alpha male rules the roost is an oversimplification to the point of ridicule. In fact, in most domestic canine social groups it is not a single male, but rather a group of females that decide what's what.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I think it's instinctive to try and understand why a dog behaves the way it does, and looking at wolf behavior or even wild dog behavior (thus subtracting human influences on said behavior) is not illogical. It may be wrong, but I can understand why people, in the effort to deepen their understanding of canines, would look to these sources.

I'm not convinced we can't use some bits of what we know of dog's social behavior to mold our own training tactics. I think learning a dog's body language is extremely important in this respect.

Certainly I agree that the whole dominant thing can be taken too far. Just like with kids, you don't want to be lord and master over them (can you say teenage rebellion complete with tattoos and piercings) but you do want to set up reasonable boundaries on what behavior is considered acceptable and what is not.

The second half of that post I agree entirely with.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

One more: Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog | Dog Star Daily


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Good_Karma said:


> ...but you do want to set up reasonable boundaries on what behavior is considered acceptable and what is not.


Absolutely, and Dr. Ian Dunbar is a big fan of setting rules and training appropriate behaviors. He talks about that in the 3rd article I posted.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

It's funny, you never hear people talk about Ian Dunbar on this forum. His books were the first ones I read on positive reinforcement. He completely changed my outlook on training.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Ha! The omega-rollover.  Good article, Cassidy's Mom. Thanks for taking the time to post the link. I hope other people read it too.


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> It's funny, you never hear people talk about Ian Dunbar on this forum. His books were the first ones I read on positive reinforcement. He completely changed my outlook on training.


 Very true. I also really liked Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. Probably the one book I would recommend for any dog owner.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> It's funny, you never hear people talk about Ian Dunbar on this forum. His books were the first ones I read on positive reinforcement. He completely changed my outlook on training.


I just read a paper by Ian on dog behavior and where aggresission comes from and I must admit I was a little surprised by his comparison and his theories equating puppy development with Freud's theories!

Maybe it was an early paper but it seems a little far fetched to link Freud's theory for human development with that of dogs!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

codmaster said:


> I just read a paper by Ian on dog behavior and where aggresission comes from and I must admit I was a little surprised by his comparison and his theories equating puppy development with Freud's theories!
> 
> Maybe it was an early paper but it seems a little far fetched to link Freud's theory for human development with that of dogs!


Ha!!! It wasn't the Freud theory about women wanting man parts, was it? Don't see how that relates to dogs either.

Seriously though, that surprises me too since I thought that many of Freud's theories had been de-bunked. Maybe you're right and it was a much earlier published paper.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Can you post a link to it?


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> think just because something seems to work (maybe does work in the short run for the moment)


That’s the point I was making. Sometimes an alpha roll is better because it treats the actual problem rather than just temporarily treating a symptom. Using redirection like food or toys can actually end up rewarding and encouraging bad behavior if it’s not used properly. Redirection and rewards can work temporarily but if not used properly it can actually make things worse in the long run. And like I said before: it’s best to match the tool to the dog, and other circumstances/conditions. 


MaggieRoseLee said:


> I want and if I have to learn to teach in a SMARTER way that may take a bit longer but be kinder and clearer to my dog, then I'm willing to learn those methods.


If you want to be smarter and kinder then you shouldn’t rule out the alpha roll. Like I said most of the vicious dogfights and attacks on humans have been by dogs who have been taught using “politically correct” techniques. That don’t properly dominate the dog and give reasonable rules boundaries and limitations. Most of the unruly and dangerous dogs that I have seen our dogs and haven’t been alpha rolled and that there has been an over emphasis on using toys or food or other forms of redirection which doesn’t give the structure and only treats the symptoms rather than the actual problems. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> slamming them into an Alpha Roll.


You claim you been training dogs for 20 years yet think an alpha roll is slamming around a dog? 


MaggieRoseLee said:


> Just saying that being a good leader isn't always about us being so dominant we have to strike the fear of God into our dogs as the only way to control them.


That seems to be quite dishonest manipulative dramatic rhetoric. 
It seems that you are trying to imply that an alpha roll is terrorizing a dog; if it’s done properly it normally shouldn’t be. The first time for any experience can be terrifying (dogs often fear some of their first toys). As others have said; with most dogs that are alpha rolled properly the dogs will actually enjoy it and not have fear. If it’s done properly it should build discipline and trust; not fear. 
I alpha roll my dog for some people as a demonstration, and sometimes to introduce my dog to a puppy (or other fearful dog) so the puppy (or other fearful dog) won’t be so fearful. My dog knows the difference when I’m exerting my dominance, or discipline or when it is a demonstration, or when it is an introduction to a fearful dog/puppy.
Some fear of God is good; knowing that crossing the double lines while you’re driving down the road can be fatal, can be beneficial. I scoff at the mottos “no fear”. Proper fear is what keeps us alive. 


MaggieRoseLee said:


> We just merrily wander along ignoring those signals, making the stress worse, and are AMAZED when the **** breaks loose at the end of the leash!


That’s why you should get to better understand dogs and wolves language and socialization. Part of that is alpha rolling. It’s part of how they communicate, establish rank and organize. If you want to have a better understanding and more trust and a more happy secure dog; you should start reading your dog’s language more and you start using their language more.


MaggieRoseLee said:


> Coming down on my dog like a ton of bricks in an alpha roll is, for the most part, the 'easy' way to deal with the situation. I don't have to be smart. I don't have to hold back. I don't have to do anything but react in a (to my dog) suddenly insane way that will completely take any 'learning' from the situation and replace it with OH MY GOSH WHAT IS HAPPENING TO MY WORLD OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH. Suddenly my dog will be terrified of me (not respecting me, not finding me a stable leader, but instead a Freakshow of Horrors).


You claim you been training dogs for 20 years; yet you clearly don’t know what a proper alpha roll is. It sounds like you don’t want to be smart about alpha roles. It sounds like you don’t want to be smart about training.
Merely your entire post is ignorant bigoted hatefull stereotypes.
　


Mrs.K said:


> Dogs and people get injured and killed because people don't know their dogs and neither do they train their dogs properly. Alpha roll has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with it.


The first part I agree with, the second part I disagree.
People that know about dogs and wolves know that alpha rolling is part of their communication, part of establishing rank and part of keeping order. If you don’t have a good understanding of dogs and if you don’t have a good hierarchy and if you don’t have order and don‘t have good discipline; there is a higher risk that your dog will hurt someone or itself or someone’s property. Like I said it’s best to stick to the facts and logic rather than use “political correctness”.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Merely your entire post is ignorant bigoted hatefull stereotypes


How harsh is that statement, doggone????
Wow...
Maybe your posts would be taken better without the bitter attitude. 
An alpha roll is an alpha roll, ask any dog that has experienced it=they do NOT like it~ and it is _NOT_ effective in long term foundation training, it_ is_ a quickie fix ~ the dog acts submissive and fearful.... Plain and simple.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> One more: Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog | Dog Star Daily


That again is utter rubbish, like many articles that have been posted here. Like has been pointed out before; given their druthers and opportunity dogs have a tendency to form packs; despite the fact the authors claim. It seems that the author hasn’t ever observed a Wolfpack (whether they be wild or captive) or observe dogs playing relatively naturally as a pack in the backyard or in a dog park. It’s clear from his writing that he doesn’t know what being an “alpha wolf” is. Despite the authors claims; wolves and dogs do use physical force like alpha rolling to maintain order and keep the peace. Alpha rolling often can prevent violence.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DogGone said:


> If you want to be smarter and kinder then you shouldn’t rule out the alpha roll. *Like I said most of the vicious dogfights and attacks on humans have been by dogs who have been taught using “politically correct” techniques.* That don’t properly dominate the dog and give reasonable rules boundaries and limitations. Most of the unruly and dangerous dogs that I have seen our dogs and haven’t been alpha rolled and that there has been an over emphasis on using toys or food or other forms of redirection which doesn’t give the structure and only treats the symptoms rather than the actual problems.


Could you please provide some evidence for this statement.


Just because some people claim positive training techniques does not mean they:
1) know what they are doing
2) are good at doing it
and 
3) are actually doing the work at all.
Some use it as an excuse for allowing bad behavior.

When dogs are consistantly allowed to push their weight around, they generally will get pushier. This does not mean they need alpha rolls or to be hit or to be starved or to be shocked into submission. It means their owner needs to be a leader and train the dog. 

If you wait until the dog snarls at anyone coming near his couch and has bitten five separate people already, it will take more time and patience to switch the roles. Alpha rolling such a dog might mean stitches.

Just because some people have failed with positive training does not mean the positive training techniques don't work, it means some people failed.

The idea that dogs that have been alpha rolled do not cause serious attacks on people is something that I would have to question. 

Lastly, one of my girls was alpha rolled by a previous owner, she was a nice confident pup when she left, and six weeks of sitting in a crate and being subjected to Ceasar Millan's training techniques including alpha rolls brought me back a puppy that was terrified of strangers. 

I treated her like I treat all my dogs. 

I have never struck or alpha rolled this bitch, she has never felt a prong collar or an e collar, or a head collar. I have never muzzled her. She has since passed her CGC and her RN, twice placing. She has even had a rather wicked vet visit where they dehaired a wound on her ear, and immediately afterwards licked the people that were bending over her plucking hair out of a wound. (At my request they did muzzle her for this.)

I have used only positive training methods with her. She listens to my voice and my hand signals, and she jumps up on fencing so that I can give her pets and hugs on my way out of her kennel. 

Ceasar in my opinion is more harmful than Victoria. Victoria's methods are unlikely to create problems that weren't there. Ceasar's methods can. I am not saying it will happen with all dogs, even with the same handlers. But if you apply Ceasar to certain dogs via inexperienced handlers you can create issues that people will need to gentle out of them.


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> Like I said it’s best to stick to the facts and logic
> 
> 
> > Just like my parents, they would also say things they would never do themselves.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

DogGone said:


> Like I said most of the vicious dogfights and attacks on humans have been by dogs who have been taught using “politically correct” techniques.


Is there any data to back up this statement?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DogGone said:


> Using redirection like food or toys can actually end up rewarding and encouraging bad behavior *if it’s not used properly. *Redirection and rewards can work temporarily but *if not used properly *it can actually make things worse in the long run. [Emphasis Added]




Like many, you only talk about the problems of the tools/methods of others, when they're _"not used properly."_ When they are used properly they give good results. And at the same time you talk of your tools/methods ONLY when they ARE used properly. When the Alpha Roll is _"not used properly"_ it can cause far more problems than many other methods AND it puts the handler at risk even when IT IS used properly. 




DogGone said:


> Like I said most of the vicious dogfights and attacks on humans have been by dogs who have been taught using “politically correct” techniques. That don’t properly dominate the dog and give reasonable rules boundaries and limitations.




There are plenty of ways to establish dominance that do not involve the risks to the dog and the handler that the Alpha Roll does. And I wonder do you have anything to support your statement? Or is it another of your opinions masquerading as a fact? 




DogGone said:


> You claim you been training dogs for 20 years yet think an alpha roll is slamming around a dog?


 
You've been asked a couple of times by a couple of people for your training credentials. Ever going to supply them? 

Earlier MaggieRoseLee wrote,


> Just saying that being a good leader isn't always about us being so dominant we have to strike the fear of God into our dogs as the only way to control them.


 



DogGone said:


> That seems to be quite dishonest manipulative dramatic rhetoric.


 
_"That seems to be quite"_ rude. 




DogGone said:


> It seems that you are trying to imply that an alpha roll is terrorizing a dog; *if it’s done properly *it *normally * shouldn’t be. [Emphasis Added]


 
AGAIN you only talk about your tools/methods as being used properly. Truth is when it's not used properly (as you so love to discuss the methods of others) it CAN terrorize a dog and it ALWAYS places the handler at risk for a serious bite since he's face to face with the dog. 




DogGone said:


> The first time for any experience *can be terrifying * [Emphasis Added]


 
So in spite of your rudeness towards MaggieRoseLee, you admit that a dog CAN be terrorized by the Alpha Roll! And you also admit that this can happen even when it's done properly. Good to know! 




DogGone said:


> (dogs often fear some of their first toys). As others have said; with most dogs that are alpha rolled properly the dogs will actually enjoy it and not have fear. *If it’s done properly * it should build discipline and trust; not fear. [Emphasis Added]


 
AGAIN we see the phrase, _"if it's done properly ... "_ 




DogGone said:


> Merely your entire post is ignorant bigoted hatefull stereotypes.


 
More rudeness. ROFL




DogGone said:


> People that know about dogs and wolves know that alpha rolling is part of their communication


 
No, it's not. You're simply wrong. A close examination will show that the submissive dog is NOT being forced down, rather he's going down under his own power. Of course if you don't bother to look closely, you may think, as you do, that he's being rolled. Earlier I asked if you had any video of this to show us. Since you've not shown us any, we can assume that you don't have any. In spite of telling us how common this is, you have absolutely nothing. 




DogGone said:


> part of establishing rank and part of keeping order.


 
Since it does not happen as you claim, it has nothing to do with establishing rank OR keeping order. 




DogGone said:


> Like I said it’s best to stick to the facts and logic rather than use “political correctness”.




Still waiting for you to _"stick to the facts and logic."_


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DogGone said:


> Like has been pointed out before; given their druthers and opportunity dogs have a tendency to form packs; despite the fact the authors claim.




Nope you're quite wrong. WOLVES form packs but the groups that domesticated dogs form have little resemblance to a pack of wolves. In wolf packs only the alpha male and female breed. In domestic dog groups no such rule applies or is followed. Any male will breed with any female. Pack hierarchy in wolf packs is usually quite rigid with each wolf having a place in the pack. In domestic dog groups no such rigid hierarchy exists. It's much more of a group effort than a wolf pack. 




DogGone said:


> It seems that the author hasn’t ever observed a Wolfpack


 
Dogs are not wolves. The latest information says that they had a common ancestor but they ARE NOT the same. One can draw inferences from one to the other but it's a serious error to think that they are identical and it's a more serious error to think that they behave the same or that what applies to one applies equally to the other. 




DogGone said:


> It’s clear from his writing that he doesn’t know what being an “alpha wolf” is.


 
There's little correlation between an alpha wolf and an alpha dog and the fact that most dogs will allow humans to dominate them. 




DogGone said:


> Despite the authors claims; wolves and dogs do use physical force like alpha rolling to maintain order and keep the peace.


 
No, they don't. It's a rather complete misread of what's actually going on. ONLY if one of the dogs does not display submission, does it turn to physical force. And Alpha Rolling is NOT part of that repertoire. Mock combat and actual combat ARE part of it. The Alpha Roll is not. 




DogGone said:


> Alpha rolling often can prevent violence.


 
And it can often initiate it; EVEN when it's done properly.


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## Hercules (Aug 1, 2010)

Dude, **** leeburg, everything I saw and read on that website was animal cruelty.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DogGone said:


> Like I said most of the vicious dogfights and attacks on humans have been by dogs who have been taught using “politically correct” techniques.


What do you base this assumption on? Are you referring to most of the dog attacks on humans that you have direct knowledge of - you know all the specifics of the situation, you've met and evaluated the particular dog, etc., or are you talking in generalities? How could you possibly know what methods have been used to train "most dogs", or if those "most dogs" you're talking about have been trained at all?

You make assumptions about how everyone here trains without knowing anything about any of us, (Lou Castle - politically correct? :rofl and you also make grandiose claims, such as comparing yourself to Cesar Milan, without giving any information whatsoever about yourself. Surely if you're such an accomplished and experienced trainer we would have heard of you, yes? 

Anyone can claim to be an expert in anything but without proof it's all a bunch of hooey. Hey, did you know I'm the world's foremost expert on the mating behavior of rabbits?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DogGone said:


> That again is utter rubbish, like many articles that have been posted here. Like has been pointed out before; given their druthers and opportunity dogs have a tendency to form packs; despite the fact the authors claim. It seems that the author hasn’t ever observed a Wolfpack (whether they be wild or captive) or observe dogs playing relatively naturally as a pack in the backyard or in a dog park. It’s clear from his writing that he doesn’t know what being an “alpha wolf” is. Despite the authors claims; wolves and dogs do use physical force like alpha rolling to maintain order and keep the peace.


Again, cite your source. Surely there is research to back up this assertion? If not, then it's just an opinion, based on nothing, and worth nothing.



> Alpha rolling often can prevent violence.


No, it can't. You're wrong.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LouCastle said:


> Still waiting for you to _"stick to the facts and logic."_


Me too! opcorn:


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## new_wind (Oct 24, 2008)

I have a question with all this, 
Long ago we went to Dog park and there were two GSD, since it’s an unleashed park my girl was out of the leash, she went to greet the other two dogs in happy way, the other two GSD apparently a couple of Male and Female immediately launch on my girl, the Female took down my girl while the male stand behind her, my girl was rolled with her paws up, she didn’t put a fight at all, she just stood there frozen with the fangs out but no other reaction, the other female standing on top of my girl with a very aggressive instance but not attacking, I can only relate it to those Nat Geo programs about wolfs fighting for pack control, this happens really fast, I rush and put my leg in between my girl and the other dog to push the other GSD back, the other owner was already coming to get the female so no harm was done other than the scary moment.
My Girl is sometimes too “cocky” in attitude and this could trigger the event.
Isn’t this what is called Alpha Roll?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Difference was the other dog didn't grab your dog and force her over.


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## new_wind (Oct 24, 2008)

Actually she did, grabbing my dog from the top at first.
That is why I am curious about this.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

new_wind said:


> Actually she did, grabbing my dog from the top at first.
> That is why I am curious about this.


What do you mean by "grabbing my dog from the top at first"?

Top of what? At first? - what did the dog do next?

Sounds like your dog went down by herself when the other dog grabbed her. Not that the other dog forced her down like a human would have done in an Alpha roll. Similar result but a little different and the point people were making is that when a dog tries to dominate another dog, some dogs will fight back and snap at them. Same thing is a risk if a human trys it also. Some dogs will give up and roll and some will fight back with all their might.


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## new_wind (Oct 24, 2008)

Uhmm, As I remember, the other dog grab my girl from the neck and, I am not sure she went down by herself or was the other dog who push her down, It could be she went down by herself as submission, at that moment I was more concern to get there to protect my girl.
Based on all exposed here, I just try to figure out if that is an actual event of Alpha roll or just a domination match. 
My Girl has changed too much after that, now I am sure my girl would fight back with everything, she is not aggressive, but not submissive at all.


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