# When to intervene?



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

As I've said before, I take my dog almost daily to a local dog park. This is the first dog I've owned that has ever stepped foot inside a dog park, but I currently have no other option for her to enjoy some off leash running, so we go.

I'm also a HUGE fan of this lady and her work:

https://dogsplayingforlife.com/about-play-for-life/

That being said, dog parks are an interesting environment where dog's of all breeds, with a HUGE variety of temperaments and training, mingle - for better or worse LOL! My experience has been that very few dogs that go there are in any way responsive to their owners once they enter the park. And I watch people chasing down their dogs on a daily basis in order to leash them up so they can leave, it's really very entertaining! That being said, I don't think I've ever seen a really dog aggressive dog there either.

At any rate, if you go to a dog park very often you will undoubtedly see some pack behavior that can get ugly pretty quickly if it's allowed to continue unabated. We've all heard horror stories!

In one such incident that I saw, a little dachshund was being chased by about 8 larger dogs, (a) because he was running and (b) because he was screaming like a wounded rabbit while running! Several owners were running behind trying to intervene, but losing ground as the chase continued. Since I happened to be out in front of the pack, I intercepted the lead chase dog and kicked him, which broke the spell and stopped the chase. The owner of this particular dog was leading the human pack that was following the chase, so I apologized for kicking his dog, but explained that it looked like his dog was very close to actually catching the dachshund. Curiously, the owner of the dog I kicked was very understanding and not angry at all...the funny reaction, IMO, was that the dachshund owner showed no concern for her dog at all. In my view, if that lead dog had caught the dachshund it would have died right there in the frenzy! 

I saw another large group fight break out once, involving 6-7 large dogs. I was across a large open area from them, but when I saw it continue for over a minute with anxious owners mingling around looking confused, I ran over to help. The situation was diffused with no injuries to dogs or humans, and people thanked me for helping out.

Just yesterday 2 big male dogs got into it close to where I was standing, and I was able to break it up quickly, without even physically intervening. And again with no injuries to either dog, both of which continued on and left each other alone. In this case I know both dogs and their owners, so the only comment from either of them was to ask if that was their dog that was fighting LOL!

At any rate, my goal is always to make sure that no dog gets injured while I'm present. But I'm curious how others respond to dog fights, or pack/prey behaviors they see. Do you intervene, or just let the owners deal with it, or leash up your dog and get out of there? Have you ever intervened and had an irate owner yell at you for it? Have you ever been bitten by getting involved?

Or is this exactly why you never go to a dog park in the first place?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Or is this exactly why you never go to a dog park in the first place?


Yup. You nailed it! Too many clueless people!


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Tim, I think you already know the answers you are going to get. I'm betting most people will say this is why they don't even go in the first place.

That being said, since we go to the same dog park, if I see something like that happening, I immediately call my dog, who thankfully has amazing recall and has no interest in other dogs anyway, and make her sit and stay right at my side. Depending on how bad it is, the reaction of the owners involved, and the general feel of the dog park after, I may leash my girl up and leave. I've decided that I don't want to get involved and either: get bit, yelled at, or because I'm involved make my dog think she needs to be involved. I'd rather stay clear.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Pyethis, that is EXACTLY what I used to do when I was going to the dog park! 

If it was REALLY bad, like the time someone brought their female in, who may have still been in heat, I would warn other people coming in to stay away. I could sense a serious dog fight about to break out amongst the male dogs!

Those of us who are really good at interpreting dog behaviour and pack dynamics can often see trouble coming before a fight erupts and steer clear of it.

I mainly went there to get to know other dog owners, because I ran a boarding kennel.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I sort of take this thread as a share your dog park thoughts and/or experience. 

Apex is super doggy. "My experience has been that very few dogs that go there are in any way responsive to their owners once they enter the park." 

Yup that was me and why I quit going. That was I would say a year ago. I'm curious how much its changed. The last time I went Apex was ready to leave with a family and their 3 dogs. Funny not funny. 

My concern was that I was always chasing him around if something were to happen i would be to far behind and lack any voice control. Not the only reason I quit going. 

Once a mom and her kids came in with their dog and a pizza! They sat to eat never leaving the bench while the dog went everywhere and he was a bully. When he went to bully Apex eye contact and a NO worked fine, he left Apex alone. Left me wishing my dog listened like that. Lol

I made the mistake of bringing my 6 year old. He was bitten by a huge beast of dog no marks thank god. My son was doing everything correctly the dog just freaked out. The dog didn't want to be there anyway. 
We have a nice 5 acre wooded dog park. I was always in shock by how many people brought their dogs that didn't actually want to be there. 

I do miss the dog park. I miss seeing Apex so happy, I think he is a great candidate temperament wise for the dog park. I also enjoyed meeting and chatting with most of the people.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

That kind of behavior is why I wouldn't go, that and my male pup would be the one starting stuff to let everyone know he's the "big man on campus". 

However I don't have to, as I am very blessed with having a middle school (with sport fields), a park, a lake, a greenway running trail, and a city park-ish area with 2 baseball fields & a semi fenced in area I can use cause my dogs have good recall (especially when I have a toy LOL) all within 8 minutes of my house. 

Semi-brag aside haha

I'm usually a MYOB guy, getting involved in other peoples problems is way more trouble than it's worth, but with animals I'd absolutely intervene and take my chances on getting bit for my troubles. I got a soft spot the size of Texas for dogs & babies.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

I have probably intervened more than any one person at the dog park we go to most often. And almost always it is something that does not involve my dog. No one has ever been upset at me although I have yelled at a lot of dogs. Maybe because they thought one of the dogs was mine even if it wasn't or maybe they just appreciated the good intentions. I've met literally hundreds of people at dog parks and only one was a j*rk. Almost all dog park dogs are mild mannered pets and easily back down if you do a Cesar Milan tssst at them.

I bring a mix to the dog parks now which I avoided when I had working line GSDs. This was to protect other dogs because my dogs could more than handle themselves and would not take the slightest BS from any other dog. They also would not back down from people so that was not a good thing either in this environment. Many years ago, one of my males as a teenager feeling his oats liked to put other males he ran across on their backs. This did not make their owners happy and I stopped his visits before he completely matured.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

You have just described every reason that the only thing I use a dog park for is to train during high level distraction..but I stay OUT of the actual park lol

Sometimes I go just to watch, sans dog. Sit on the bench on the outside and just watch the train wreck reality show. Same odd enjoyment feeling I would get when watching something like "18 kids and counting." Can't.....look.......away 

If I ever risked a bite to assist with a dog fight, it would never be in a place where the owners put themselves in that situation, willingly, to begin with. A Dachshund being chased down by 8 large dogs??? That would be like taking your Kindergartner and telling them to go play dodge ball with the 8th Graders. 

Nuts.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

CometDog said:


> Sometimes I go just to watch, sans dog. Sit on the bench on the outside and just watch the train wreck reality show. Same odd enjoyment feeling I would get when watching something like "18 kids and counting." Can't.....look.......away


I do too on my way back from my grocery store. What I see is hardly ever enjoyable and I usually go back annoyed. Owners on their phones, bully dogs etc, etc.
Kinda like going to the zoo because I love animals but mostly I will be annoyed. Not so much by the captivity of the animals (that IS part of it) but by clueless people.
Tim, you must have thick skin to be able to want to intervene. I think it is the best way to get into a human fight. The best way is to organize your own dog park where you will be in charge. I have done this a few months on Saturdays with my clients and the dogs that were appropriate, on a remote field but then when I declined a dog, I go a lot of **** so I decided that everyone would be on their own.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My Dane of all things got attacked at a dog park. She was the friendliest dog on the planet but weirdly the one most likely to get bitten or attacked. Perhaps because she liked to give kisses and lean on other beings. 
The day of the actual attack she had been running with her Borzoi friend and when he left she was standing beside the fence seeing if he was coming back. A small BC mix? wandered over and started nipping at Freeways legs, which I put a stop to and we started to wander the other way. Nippy dog promptly gets into it with 3-4 other dogs one being a large houndish thing and Freeway being the peaceable sort ambles over to take a look. I promptly follow and in a split second, as I am grabbing her collar(she was deaf), Freeway becomes the target of an all out mob which quickly grew in size and ended with me kicking several dogs and yelling at a few owners. 
The end result was some stitches and a sulking Dane but we seldom went to dog parks after that. 
Bud was surprisingly good with other dogs but invariably ran into the jerk dogs that wanted a piece of him and he never walked away from a good fight. Sabs was not good with intact males and in general disliked rude dogs, so we avoided dog parks for the most part.
I can read my dogs and usually a "knock it off!" deters nonsense behavior but I think in general too many owners let things escalate too far to stop. The dog parks here have largely become a haven for ill mannered and poorly trained dogs, coupled with the purely positive, wannabe trainers throwing their 2 cents in. Not places I choose to be.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

I've seen very, very few dog fights in our dog parks and the ones I saw always involved a GSD as one of the protagonists. Having said that most GSDs I've seen behave themselves partly because of all breeds they have the least interest in playing or even interacting with strange dogs and strange people. They are typically aloof and mostly interested in interacting with their owner. (The level varies as well with adult dogs a lot more aloof than puppies or young dogs.) I have counseled a couple of less experienced GSD owners that I met in dog parks that there is nothing wrong with their dog when they have no or little interest in other dogs and it is in fact the mark of a good working dog breed. I have told them to just hike with or throw toys for their GSD in one corner of the park because that is what makes GSDs happy not the doggie play thing. (GSDs do enjoy roughhouse playing with their pack mates at home but random dogs in parks are not their pack mates.) I also tell them about tracking and suggest they look into it.

Almost all my interventions are coming to the rescue of dogs especially puppies that are feeling too much pressure from other dogs. Some dog owners read an article about dog socialization and think all they have to do is throw their puppy in there. If an owner does not step in, I pick up the puppy and hand it to the owner or I tell the owner in a fatherly way what I think they should be doing. Most of these cases are younger people or couples on their first dog.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

I think all the regulars in this forum knows I take my dog to the dog park almost daily. I've been going for almost a year now, I've seen stupid things as well as weird things and some unfortunate things. There was a first time dog owner who FED his pup IN the park.??????????? Fight broke out and he left the park... Thankfully along with the food. 

To answer the title on this thread, I don't intervene all that much. Because most fights break involving people who don't come regularly. If there was a fight right in front of me and one of my friends' dog is involved, I usually intervene. But if I don't know the dog or the owner, I usually just call my dog and stay away from it, thankfully my dog has excellent recall even in the dog park. 

One of the things that annoy me the most in the dog parks is a dog owner with minimum knowledge or those who are paranoid, those who can't distinguish the difference between dogs playing and dogs fighting. And calling other people's dog aggressive is completely unnecessary. Aggressive dogs are not all that common, however EXCITED dogs are very very common. I've seen spats between dog owners calling another dog dog aggressive, while the dog wasn't aggressive at all, he was either fearful or just overwhelmed.

In the 1 year I've been going, only twice I've had arguments with other dog owners. The 1st one was because this dog owner and her friends come once or twice a week and always bring with them the chuckit square frisbee toy, very easy for dogs to tug on them. 4 times I've seen fights broke out because of this toy. Dogs were tugging on them and they got possessive. What's worse, THEIR dog wasn't even the one playing with the toy! So the casualty is always some other dogs! And the last one involved my dog tugging with another dog, I put the toy away in the entrance area.

The owner came and said to me rudely, 'Next time you find my toy, don't just dump it, give it back to me.' Hahaha what. Dang I lost my crap. We got into a huge arguments and even my trainer who was there at the time stepped in and stood up for me. I think that people don't understand that when bringing a toy, especially a tug toy to the park, the toy BELONGS to the whole park. Not all dogs are able to share. That's why the only toys that should be available are tennis balls, no tugging. 

That being said... Part of the reason I still go is because I've had some good friends from the 2 parks I regularly go, and those are the people I've come to see on a regular basis which is quite nice to be honest. And I like seeing dogs being off leash. It's almost therapeutic for me personally.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I would be curious if the dog park improves obedience (not working outside the park) for those who care about obedience and how you would chose to describe your dog.


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## tangelo (Sep 15, 2018)

no dog parks


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

We prefer to go to structured off leash field exercises that our trainer does -- he blocks out a dog park early in the morning through the city park service, only his alumni and current students are allowed there, everyone does what he says, no toys, and if any dogs are rude (e.g., humping), who ever is closest verbally corrects, and if that doesn't work and they're trying to start something that could turn into a fight, they get swatted lightly on the rump with a soft leather leash before it gets very far. Nothing ever escalates when it gets nipped in the bud -- even hard stares aren't allowed. Chasing a tiny dog like Tim described would trigger the dressage whip loudly smacking the ground by the chasing dogs, using the sound and the surprise to snap them out of the prey drive. Even the people aren't allowed to shriek and squeal -- you talk quietly as you walk the perimeter (no sitting, no phones, no reading), or you talk like a boss and correct something going on next to you (and if you can't, you get out of the way for the ones who can). Everyone also knows that it's _therapy _for some of the dogs who are learning how to tolerate other dogs and learning to mimic the pack -- and the trainer is very focused on using it that way for dogs who need it, so people just kind of understand and try to support the owners of "works in progress" because we have been there and made it through to the other side. He does limit the number of "unstable" ones on the field at a time, so that those can absorb the energy of the stable pack -- too many unstable ones wouldn't work.
Here's a video about some trainer I don't know who uses the technique D. Russell pioneered: 







For all those who think dog aggression isn't fixable, D. Russell's life of training proved that it absolutely is! This documentary about D. Russell has lots of film footage of the "master" conducting it -- and interviews with him while he was alive. He described it as "poetry in motion": https://www.mcsquaredoodles.com/blog/documentary-review-dog-man

It's not easy to get the exercise right, but when it is done "his way," it's a really beautiful to observe -- we've had up to 16 GSDs, and at least as many other random breeds, large and small on the field for one glorious hour of "just being a dog." This newsletter has an article in D. Russell's own words about the exercise, and the importance of letting the dogs teach each other ("The Contrary Dog Trainer") -- it's a good explanation of why it works for people who think it's nuts to put that many dogs on a field together off leash, even dog reactive ones:

http://www.canineprofessionals.com/assets/docs/SafeHands/winter2006.pdf 


At the dog park, we try to go with friends and keep to ourselves. All of us are right in the mix of it with our dogs, and we all trained the same place. Other dogs can join in our games (as we're having fun)...if they're nice. If they're not, we run them off if a verbal correction doesn't get them to be nice. A group of confident, experienced dog people shoo'ing them away really does work. We may get called "snobby" by other people there, but so what? Our dogs just expect us to keep the jerks away because they trust us to be in charge. (It probably helps that one of our group members is a SWAT officer, and NO ONE is messing with that big human, even if he's not in uniform and they don't know his job.)

The nice thing about organizing a meet up with friends is that our dogs know each other, they romp, and if anyone gets too rough, no one's feelings get hurt if someone else corrects your own dog for getting out of hand, or if someone elbows you and says, "Get in there." Everyone we hang with knows how to use their deep, serious voice and our dogs who know that voice means business.

FWIW, I learned how to "dog park" years ago, when we were young newbies with the help of the dog park's "boss lady" who had a pack of Shepherds that listened to her well -- all the dogs in the park did, in fact. She was right in the middle of the romping, refereeing, she had the "I'm the boss" vibe that the dogs respected, and she corrected in deep, guttoral tones that they understood were corrections. It only took one word, and even stranger dogs broke off bad behavior because her timing was _flawless_ -- nothing escalated around her because she spotted hard stares, intent to hump, and all the stuff that is early-warning of a "crap starter." The one time one ignored her, she stomped between it and the other dog squared her stance and stared with a hard "NO"...and it then decided to slink back to its oblivious owner. Most dogs wanted to appease her, and not just her own! When your park has _that_ lady (or you become that lady) problems are a lot less likely to happen.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's unfortunate that people don't have access to open space to run dogs loose, without having to resort to a dog park. Probably has to do with the rural-to-urban movement of the human population in this country. I think it is very hard to fill the needs of a large or energetic dog if you live in an apartment in the city, or in any area with limited to no open space. But, I suppose this is why dog parks are so popular, and that I do understand! 

I wouldn't interfere with a dog fight between two dogs I didn't know, because one bite to my hand and I could be crippled and even have a hard time working for life. Plus, my health insurance is high deductible and not the greatest.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

That's fantastic, Magwart! Would LOVE to see it!

I did teach my dogs to obey me when they were at the park. I'd practice recalls with them when there were only a few dogs around. They would get rewarded with pats and praise, then sent back to play again.

If you want your dog to obey you in a dog park, make sure calling it to you doesn't always mean the fun is over. It amazes me how many people don't 'get' this!

It didn't happen overnight. I remember when Ranger was having a ball with a pack of 3 other dogs that were all about the same size as him. Most were shepherd or shepherd mixes, too, which meant they really were having a blast, because they understood the other dogs' play style. 

One end of this park was low-lying and rather swampy. I was trying to call him to me, as I had to be somewhere. He wasn't listening: he was having WAY too much fun.

Of course, the dogs HAD to run through a mud puddle, with him in the middle, where it was deepest, just before he finally decided to listen and come to me.

I didn't have any towels in the car. We spent the next 15 minutes doing a SLOW on-leash walk around the perimeter of the park so he could drip-dry a bit before I put him in the car!  He even had mud inside his EARS!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> That's fantastic, Magwart! Would LOVE to see it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now that is a great use for a dog park

But you don't need to be in a dog park to find mud...with all the rain, my dogs found a puddle in my back yard!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Carner, just HOW did he manage that?  Looks like he dunked his entire head in the mud puddle, while keeping the rest of his body clean!


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

tangelo said:


> no dog parks


Thank you very much for your contribution


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> I would be curious if the dog park improves obedience (not working outside the park) for those who care about obedience and how you would chose to describe your dog.


I like to practice obedience inside the dog park. I frequently have my dog do a sit/stay or a down stay while I go out to use the restroom, or need to retrieve something from the car. The first time I ever did this my dog was just 7 months old. I put her in a sit/stay about 30 ft from the entrance and went out to get something from my car. Just as I was leaving through the gate a couple was arriving with their GSD mix puppy who was a favorite wrestling buddy...and I thought oh well, so much for that practice! Fully expecting my puppy to break the sit/stay, I got what I was after and returned to find her completely ignoring her buddy's attempts to engage her in play, still sitting right where I put her with a laser focus on me!

I would say without a doubt my dog is the most obedient and well trained dog in the park always, and yes I am bragging! I periodically do obedience demos with her there which people seem to enjoy. She has an uncanny drop it, that I've mentioned before, so I have her return toys she's stolen by having her drop and leave it while running by...

Another thing that amazes people is her positioning. She knows back up, but we've also worked a lot on adjusting her position by slowly coming forward and then stopping on command. 
So I'll have her back up, then apologize to her for going to far and have her walk back toward me a few steps, then sit and catch a ball. Now we're working on doing it to a count, like forward 1 step, forward 2 steps, etc. Not quite there yet, but she's catching on! Not much practical use, but it is fun!

She also does all the typical trick stuff, like roll over, play dead, spin, shake hands, etc. 

My dog has had to learn one command that's sort of specific to the dog park "come away", because lots of scuffles occur near the entrance as dogs crowd around to greet a newcomer. For that reason I don't allow my dog to do that. Come away means just that, not like a come or here command, it's just come back near me. Then I tell her to wait until the new dog has had a chance to get comfortable before letting her greet them if she wants to.

But in the end, I don't think the dog park itself does anything to improve obedience, practice does! Though it would probably be difficult to find a more distracting environment to practice in, it's really all about practice and repitition!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> My Dane of all things got attacked at a dog park. She was the friendliest dog on the planet but weirdly the one most likely to get bitten or attacked. Perhaps because she liked to give kisses and lean on other beings.
> The day of the actual attack she had been running with her Borzoi friend and when he left she was standing beside the fence seeing if he was coming back. A small BC mix? wandered over and started nipping at Freeways legs, which I put a stop to and we started to wander the other way. Nippy dog promptly gets into it with 3-4 other dogs one being a large houndish thing and Freeway being the peaceable sort ambles over to take a look. I promptly follow and in a split second, as I am grabbing her collar(she was deaf), Freeway becomes the target of an all out mob which quickly grew in size and ended with me kicking several dogs and yelling at a few owners.
> The end result was some stitches and a sulking Dane but we seldom went to dog parks after that.
> Bud was surprisingly good with other dogs but invariably ran into the jerk dogs that wanted a piece of him and he never walked away from a good fight. Sabs was not good with intact males and in general disliked rude dogs, so we avoided dog parks for the most part.
> I can read my dogs and usually a "knock it off!" deters nonsense behavior but I think in general too many owners let things escalate too far to stop. The dog parks here have largely become a haven for ill mannered and poorly trained dogs, coupled with the purely positive, wannabe trainers throwing their 2 cents in. Not places I choose to be.


I've noticed this as well with GDs...must be fear-based from their size. At our park there was recently a GD family reunion...they appropriated the small dog area to avoid any conflicts...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Your dog in a down stay while you are in the bathroom? Seriously, or are you pushing us? You are asking for trouble. I hope you'll let us know if that ever happens. Your dog and you must have some guardian angels.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Magwart said:


> We prefer to go to structured off leash field exercises that our trainer does -- he blocks out a dog park early in the morning through the city park service, only his alumni and current students are allowed there, everyone does what he says, no toys, and if any dogs are rude (e.g., humping), who ever is closest verbally corrects, and if that doesn't work and they're trying to start something that could turn into a fight, they get swatted lightly on the rump with a soft leather leash before it gets very far. Nothing ever escalates when it gets nipped in the bud -- even hard stares aren't allowed. Chasing a tiny dog like Tim described would trigger the dressage whip loudly smacking the ground by the chasing dogs, using the sound and the surprise to snap them out of the prey drive. Even the people aren't allowed to shriek and squeal -- you talk quietly as you walk the perimeter (no sitting, no phones, no reading), or you talk like a boss and correct something going on next to you (and if you can't, you get out of the way for the ones who can). Everyone also knows that it's _therapy _for some of the dogs who are learning how to tolerate other dogs and learning to mimic the pack -- and the trainer is very focused on using it that way for dogs who need it, so people just kind of understand and try to support the owners of "works in progress" because we have been there and made it through to the other side. He does limit the number of "unstable" ones on the field at a time, so that those can absorb the energy of the stable pack -- too many unstable ones wouldn't work.
> Here's a video about some trainer I don't know who uses the technique D. Russell pioneered:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVqDsNKpDE0
> ...


Thank you so much for sharing these links! I wish I'd have known about Mr. Russell's work when I was down there working in Baton Rouge!

I was definitely thinking of you @Magwart when I included the link to Aimee Sadler's work with play groups for shelter dogs. I hope you checked it out!

You are amazingly fortunate to have a group like you described. I'm jealous! 

And to get back on topic > I am definitely like the "Boss Lady" you mentioned! I am always watchful, I always intervene when I see things that are likely to escalate into a fight, or when a dog is being bullied, and I have a deep voice that dogs just seem to respond well to. Beyond that though, I learn every dog's name, and I engage the owners (everyone likes to talk about their dog!), so I know all the regulars by name as well. And most dogs come by to greet me when they arrive! Even a couple that don't allow anyone else to pet them ever...

And I'm happy to say that not a single dog of any size has been injured in the 15 months I've been going there! Though there were a couple human injuries sustained while incorrectly trying to break up fights, which is why I always try to help! I've broken up 100's of dog fights and have never been bitten doing it - knock on wood!

So I certainly don't suggest anyone intervene in a dog fight without first learning how to do so safely! But I do think if more people would intervene BEFORE a fight breaks out, it would avoid lots of problems! Do it for the dogs, not the clueless owners! Just saying something to break the spell is often enough...

Just the other day I broke up a "near" fight between two male huskies. They were doing the stiff legged walk around each other, then escalated to both standing on their hind legs locking front legs and showing their teeth at each other. I picked up a jug of water, held it up and told them loudly that "I have a jug of water and I know how to use it" LOL! They slowly lowered themselves back to the ground and went their separate ways...problem solved!


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> I like to practice obedience inside the dog park. I frequently have my dog do a sit/stay or a down stay while I go out to use the restroom, or need to retrieve something from the car. The first time I ever did this my dog was just 7 months old. I put her in a sit/stay about 30 ft from the entrance and went out to get something from my car. Just as I was leaving through the gate a couple was arriving with their GSD mix puppy who was a favorite wrestling buddy...and I thought oh well, so much for that practice! Fully expecting my puppy to break the sit/stay, I got what I was after and returned to find her completely ignoring her buddy's attempts to engage her in play, still sitting right where I put her with a laser focus on me!
> 
> I would say without a doubt my dog is the most obedient and well trained dog in the park always, and yes I am bragging! I periodically do obedience demos with her there which people seem to enjoy. She has an uncanny drop it, that I've mentioned before, so I have her return toys she's stolen by having her drop and leave it while running by...
> 
> ...


Kind of off topic, but why aren’t you competing with your dog in something? She sounds so amazing!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Your dog in a down stay while you are in the bathroom? Seriously, or are you pushing us? You are asking for trouble. I hope you'll let us know if that ever happens. Your dog and you must have some guardian angels.


Not sure why you'd think this is "asking for trouble", but I assure you we do it frequently! And she's very adept at communicating to other dogs that she doesn't want to be bothered when she's working >


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Not sure why you'd think this is "asking for trouble", but I assure you we do it frequently! And she's very adept at communicating to other dogs that she doesn't want to be bothered when she's working >


I admit I'm not a dog park person, but I don't think its fair or a good idea to put your dog in a vulnerable and basically submissive position where other dogs can make contact with her. Adept at communicating sounds kinda similar to defending herself, so I thought I'd intervene.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Kind of off topic, but why aren’t you competing with iyour dog in something? She sounds so amazing!


Thank you, she is becoming a really good dog!

I actually have been training dogs since I was 10 yrs old. I've never owned a dog that wasn't trained to know both verbal and hand signals, and I probably never will. BUT!

I've never "competed" in anything with any dog I've ever worked with. It wasn't until joining this forum, and hearing all your, collective your not you specifically, stories that competition started to peak my interest! So, I thought about, and trained Nyx, for a BH to get the ball rolling >

Sadly, the local club didn't want to work with me because I was not totally pumped up and ready to title her beyond the BH. They're small and don't have time for people who aren't committed, so I get it.

Also, Nyx is a BYB dog, and although when I bought her the breeder assured me that the Dam was in the process of being registered, it hasn't happened... So all I could possibly hope for is to register her with the PAL program...which requires her to be spayed. She's only 20 months, and I will not consider spaying her until 2 yrs or beyond, so even AKC obedience stuff is not an option for us.

Honestly though, I'm content training her and doing these obedience demos for now. Maybe in the future we'll get into some competition, I don't know...


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## tangelo (Sep 15, 2018)

McGloomy said:


> Thank you very much for your contribution


sorry for the short quote I.m a new member and are finding my way around. Hopefully future quotes will contain mote substance.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I admit I'm not a dog park person, but I don't think its fair or a good idea to put your dog in a vulnerable and basically submissive position where other dogs can make contact with her. Adept at communicating sounds kinda similar to defending herself, so I thought I'd intervene.


I appreciate your concern Steve, thanks for stepping up! But I think we're fine, my dog is pretty good at comminicating...almost as if dog is her native language. And so far it hasn't ever resulted in an issue of any kind. She tells them not now, and they seem to get that pretty well. So I think we're good.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> I appreciate your concern Steve, thanks for stepping up! But I think we're fine, my dog is pretty good at comminicating...almost as if dog is her native language. And so far it hasn't ever resulted in an issue of any kind. She tells them not now, and they seem to get that pretty well. So I think we're good.


OK, back on the soap box: that will work as long as the other dog is fluent in the dog language as well. I have seen many who don't know what dog etiquette is and along with that, their owners. And when you are not there, then what? A lot can happen during a bathroom break. So far you have been lucky. Nevertheless, her obedience is impressive. Our local dog park (fenced) has some rules and one is to always stay with your dog. What if someone steals her? Do you rely on other people to guard her?
I do realize we are talking in circles here :grin2:


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Well, that little dachshund thanks you!! Who knows what fate you saved him from.

If you were "policing" our dog park, I would be grateful to have the help and would not mind at all.

That said, we don't go to our dog park any more because my dog spent a lot of his time growling - growled at the dog who tried to hump him, growled at the little dog that kept walking beneath him and licking his privates, growled at the dog who barked in his face while standing right in front of him, the dog who jumped on his head to invite him to play, the dog who kept trying to put his head in my lap... the list goes on. I guess my dog is not "easy-going' enough to enjoy the dog park.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> OK, back on the soap box: that will work as long as the other dog is fluent in the dog language as well. I have seen many who don't know what dog etiquette is and along with that, their owners. And when you are not there, then what? A lot can happen during a bathroom break. So far you have been lucky. Nevertheless, her obedience is impressive. Our local dog park (fenced) has some rules and one is to always stay with your dog. What if someone steals her? Do you rely on other people to guard her?
> I do realize we are talking in circles here :grin2:


It would actually be quite interesting to see someone try to "steal" her! I might have to consider setting that up to see! In general, she does not listen to other people. But yeah, that would be entertaining, and maybe open up some holes in her training that we'd need to work on! 

I think probably she'd just ignore them entirely, which is what she usually does. But if they pressed it, hmm...I'd probably have to ask Steve to intervene again before someone got hurt!

Seriously, my previous dog would hold a sit stay or a down stay wherever I indicated for hours on end. Once I had her, off-leash of course, in downtown Denver at the pedestrian mall at night. After walking for awhile, I decided to stop at a pub for a beer. So I put my dog in a sit stay about 5 feet from the door, so she wasn't impeding traffic, and went in for a beer. When I came out, some idiot was crouched in front of her trying to pet her. She was calmly showing her teeth at him, without moving or growling or barking. I came out, saw the guy, and said "wow, that looks sort of dangerous", then started walking and called the dog to follow...the look on his face was priceless! Good doggy!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> I've noticed this as well with GDs...*must be fear-based from their size. * At our park there was recently a GD family reunion...they appropriated the small dog area to avoid any conflicts...


Maybe a factor, but Freeway was tiny. Boots on put me at 5'9", excuse the bad photo. I don't have many of her and I, I was usually taking them. She was about 4 or 5 in this one. 
I think maybe truly gentle dogs get picked on just because


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I just love (jealous) of magwarts dog park experience. I would love for that benefit to be our experience. Ive searched high and low for a trainer of that magnitude. I like hearing all the positives for dog parks. 
My new neighbors got a 6 month old shepherd mix. She has escaped a few times and ends up in my yard. I am surprised at how well Apex is with a puppy. He is such a good dog...for me. 
Something's can't be avoided. She is such a nice pup. Neither of us have a fence. It will be interesting to see how this plays out lol. Enjoying this thread


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Thank you, she is becoming a really good dog!
> 
> I actually have been training dogs since I was 10 yrs old. I've never owned a dog that wasn't trained to know both verbal and hand signals, and I probably never will. BUT!
> 
> ...


If you think she’s truly BH ready, and you know the entire routine and she is solid in focused heeling (on and off leash), sit and down out of motion, change of pace while heeling, heeling through a group, has a nice recall and can do a solid down stay away from you while another dog is doing the obedience portion, you don’t need to join the local club to do that. Just saying. You can become a member of one of the parent clubs (USCA, DVG) and enter any of their sanctioned trials. No need for club membership, if you ever change your mind and decide to do some sort of competition.

As far as AKC and other obedience venues, yeah. Not a lot of great options for intact but unregistered dogs/bitches. There are venues outside of obedience, though, and many (I’d venture to say most) do not require your dog be spayed/neutered to compete if they are not registered with AKC.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Magwart said:


> We prefer to go to structured off leash field exercises that our trainer does -- he blocks out a dog park early in the morning through the city park service, only his alumni and current students are allowed there, everyone does what he says, no toys, and if any dogs are rude (e.g., humping), who ever is closest verbally corrects, and if that doesn't work and they're trying to start something that could turn into a fight, they get swatted lightly on the rump with a soft leather leash before it gets very far. Nothing ever escalates when it gets nipped in the bud -- even hard stares aren't allowed. Chasing a tiny dog like Tim described would trigger the dressage whip loudly smacking the ground by the chasing dogs, using the sound and the surprise to snap them out of the prey drive. Even the people aren't allowed to shriek and squeal -- you talk quietly as you walk the perimeter (no sitting, no phones, no reading), or you talk like a boss and correct something going on next to you (and if you can't, you get out of the way for the ones who can). Everyone also knows that it's _therapy _for some of the dogs who are learning how to tolerate other dogs and learning to mimic the pack -- and the trainer is very focused on using it that way for dogs who need it, so people just kind of understand and try to support the owners of "works in progress" because we have been there and made it through to the other side. He does limit the number of "unstable" ones on the field at a time, so that those can absorb the energy of the stable pack -- too many unstable ones wouldn't work.
> Here's a video about some trainer I don't know who uses the technique D. Russell pioneered:
> 
> 
> ...


That's Jason Vasconi. I've been to a seminar he did on this topic. Very cool guy and it's great work that they do. Jason learned directly from **** Russell if I am not mistaken


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Thank you, she is becoming a really good dog!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey so I know this might be kid if creepy, but I’ve thought sometimes of training toward a BH instead of a CD with my dog. It sounds like your dog is a really good dog, and sometimes it’s kind of nice to see a handle who is at a similar experience level in terms of actually competing. Would you be open to posting a video of your dog doing the BH routine on this thread?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Hey so I know this might be kid if creepy, but I’ve thought sometimes of training toward a BH instead of a CD with my dog. It sounds like your dog is a really good dog, and sometimes it’s kind of nice to see a handle who is at a similar experience level in terms of actually competing. Would you be open to posting a video of your dog doing the BH routine on this thread?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting question/challenge!

I don't believe ANY dog can be truly BH ready without training on the routine in a setting similar to the actual trial...and therein lies the problem. 

I work my dog at a local park on a long line practicing sit/down/stay out of motion. We work on heeling, and on almost every walk I do test/reinforce her heel with varied speeds. She heels well on leash (not a focused heel though, and I don't think that is required to pass a BH), but she's definitely not quite polished enough on her off leash heel at this point in time to compete. Her recall is great, she does a good front, and she does a passable pivot to heel from a front, though I'm pretty sure she thinks a hop is an integral part of that LOL! Her long down is impeccable, no worries there.

At any rate, I have not actually trained her on the whole routine all at once. I was hoping to join my local club to do that, and since that's not an option I sort of gave up on BH training some months ago... 

For me a big problem has been finding a spot, other than my backyard or the dog park, to practice any off leash obedience. I used to do it at a local school, but was warned by AC that it was NOT okay to have my dog off leash there. The fine starts at $125 for a first offense, and goes up considerably from there! So far I've just gotten warnings, but I'm pretty sure I've used those up at this point!

For my dog also her biggest challenge would really be the second part, she's fine with bikes and joggers, and cars and traffic, but not always fine with other dogs coming close while tied or leashed. So the tie out where you physically leave the dog and go out of sight would be...interesting.

All that being said, if I can find a spot where I wouldn't be risking a ticket to actually run through the BH routine, it would be good to film it and see where we stand... Whether I'd be willing to post that video here, would depend on how well it goes >

She's also currently in heat, so I won't be doing this for at least 2 more weeks...


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## clipke (Nov 14, 2017)

I never take more than one of my dogs to the main area of my local dog park at a time. They're far too big, have far too high prey drives, etc, to interact with untrained dogs with questionable temperaments. My dogs also both like to herd, and obviously the owner of a lab or toy breed dog might see that behavior as inherently aggressive. My rottie mix has been kicked and yelled at for herding. 0 aggression, he chases, he knocks the dog over if they stop in front of him, and then he stands there. No teeth, no barking, nothing. He's just herding. My shepherd does the same but is a bit more cautious and doesn't knock any dogs over. Together, they're literally like a pack of guard dogs, so that can get extreme in some situations. They will defend each other, no matter the size of the dog instigating. So, I bring them into the smaller dog area which is normally empty. If a small dog comes in, then tend to be fine anyways. The only issue ever arises is when the small dog is skittish and runs, then my dogs will chase and herd. One time, a couple asked if they could bring their huskies in with my dogs. I agreed, as my dogs are never the aggressor and can handle their own in confrontation. They got along fine for 10 minutes or so, then one of the huskies got aggressive towards my rottie mix. The huskies owner tried to break it up and almost lost a finger. My shepherd was defending his brother essentially, which I expect him to do. I haven't seen that man back at the park in months, but his girlfriend occasionally brings one of the two dogs. Moral of the story is: The average dog owner has done 0 obedience work with their dog outside of sit, lay, etc. You can expect certain behavior out of your dog, and your dog may respond to you, but other dogs will not listen to their owners. If your dog is a dominant, high prey, working dog, the dog park can be a scary place. Now I'm forced to bring them to the smaller area early on weekday mornings, or bring my shepherd alone to the main area in the afternoons.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

clipke said:


> If your dog is a dominant, high prey, working dog, the dog park ..............


If any one's GSD is a dominant, high prey working dog then they should not be brought to any dog park at all for the safety of other dogs no matter how well trained. It is simply not a good fit with the environment. Their fun place should be an IPO club, or an S&R team, or AKC training or agility, etc.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Shepdad said:


> If any one's GSD is a dominant, high prey working dog then they should not be brought to any dog park at all for the safety of other dogs no matter how well trained. It is simply not a good fit with the environment. Their fun place should be an IPO club, or an S&R team, or AKC training or agility, etc.


Well said! I would add that even in these other venues, your dog needs to be under control at all times! My understanding is that most have a strict policy regarding dog-dog aggression. You MAY get a second chance if there are no serious injuries, but no more!


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

We frequent a park on a military base here. Part of it is nice since most of the people that go, you pretty much see every day. It's not open to the general public as well. 


There are, however, poorly behaved dogs that sometimes show up. I've seen fights, usually between two dogs, never more (in fact, both times it was serious it was between two females). Katsu has a pretty good recall and will come to me before another dog enters the area. She will go sniff the new comer after I release her, but she usually doesn't play with other dogs except a select few (my shiba and I think 4-5 other dogs). Otherwise we just play fetch, tug, and some obedience tricks. The shiba just likes to sunbathe, so he's usually off to the side somewhere, relaxing.


I dislike the "always on the phone" people or the ones that bring in infants and can't handle their dogs because they have a 10 month old baby in their arms. Sadly, the rules state they can bring their kids in as long as they're "supervised." 


I've stepped in between bully dogs. Had a young husky harassing a 13 year old dog at the park (mind you, this 13 year old did not look that old). Husky owner completely oblivious and talking to his friends. I repeatedly stepped in between the two to keep the husky away HOPING the owner would notice. I gave him 3 attempts before I told him he needed to get his dog and he was being, in less nice terms, a donkey's butt.


My next house I want more land. My two can have friends over (2 dogs) and can run around in the back yard, but I'd like more than the ~2,000 sq ft of back yard for them. Something I can play fetch in.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Well said! I would add that even in these other venues, your dog needs to be under control at all times! My understanding is that most have a strict policy regarding dog-dog aggression. You MAY get a second chance if there are no serious injuries, but no more!


Absolutely. In any dog sport or working dog venue, play between dogs is completely forbidden. Access of one dog to another is strictly controlled. For one, it interferes with the work or sport objectives. Interferes with training and handler focus. Also can lead to injured or traumatized dogs which means hours of training down the drain and a pull out. Even then accidents can happen. A friend of mine was representing the U.S. at the WUSV many years ago and he took out his dog to potty on leash beside the hotel. A competitor from another country had his dog off leash in the same area. Big fight between two dominant males. Both competitors had to pull out.


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