# Recall and Stay



## networkn (May 28, 2008)

Hi There!

We have been having problems since we got Thunder with Recall. 

Basically when he is on leash he will come to us obviously because he has no choice. In the house its about 60-70%. I know it should be 100% but the only way is for him to have a leash on all the time, and then the problem is it gets tangled in furniture or he pee's or poops on it. Whenever he gets offleash it's basically impossible to get him back without someone else getting involved. We haven't had him off leash for 6 weeks trying to teach him recall onleash and we thought that was going well, we have been working hard with the bonding, making sure that any time he recalls he gets massive praise/treats/playtime. 5 days ago I was adjusting his check chain and he shrugged it off and was gone! The day after that he got out of my office and ran away onto a busy road and nearly got killed. I thought that with 6 weeks of positive consistency we would be making progress but basically nothing has changed and we are feeling very despondent and discouraged and I am starting to question if we will ever get him there. When he gets offleash I can run away and he will chase me, but he never comes back to me, just chases to ensure I am not too far away. Depending on distractions this doesn't work as well.

I have been working hard to ensure I am more interesting than all his distractions with playtime, food, and fun, varying it so he doesn't know what he is getting, but it's not working. I can do it onleash, but it doesn't work offleash.

I know he is only 10 months, but at the same time he doesn't do things that I see other dogs his age coping well with. 

We have been working on stays and this has been working pretty well. In the last 2 weeks we have taken him to classes and he is rock solid in a stay even with distractions. Today I managed to get about 10 metres from him twice for a decent period of time and that was fine, next minute he was gone. The problem I have is that I thought he was getting sorted but it appears now I can't move away from him at all, because I am always going to doubt if he will do it?

Am I destined for a dog that can never be off leash? If so I am not sure I can cope with that. 

I know the theory behind recall and stay, but I thought we were there on stay and after so much work, it feels like it's never going to happen!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Keep going with classes. That will help a LOT. Next, pick a NEW command word for the recall. Thunder has learned that whatever command you are using now is optional. Then, start teaching it at home on leash from scratch. Try clicker training because that does work VERY well to mark a desired behavior. Have your dog sit in front of you, then step back and encourage him to come close with a treat lure. If he does, click + treat. If he will do this a few times, attach your recall command. So if Thunder is sitting in front of you and you step back, lure him to you while saying "here" and as soon as he comes to you and sits or gets very close, click + treat. Work on this until you can sit him from across the room, give your recall command, and have him running to you and sitting or waiting at your front. Click + treat. VARY YOUR TREATS. The recall command should be taught with all sorts of goodies. When I am cooking in the kitchen and Renji's in the other room, I will recall him to me at random so he comes flying in and I can give him a piece of whatever it is I am cooking, things he typically does not get. 

Try working on this outside but again, start from step one with him directly in front of you and you stepping back a pace. Remember, dogs do not generalize well. To avoid him pooping or peeing on the long line or leash outdoors, potty him first. Here is where potty commands come in handy! If we're doing a training session outside, the first thing we do is go to the potty spot to empty out the dog, then we can train without worry of pottying on the leash. When you can consistently recall Thunder on a leash outdoors, try a long line. When that is consistent, add distractions at a distance. When distractions get heavier, you may have to use a more intense reward like bits of plain cheeseburger or a game of tug. When he can recall on a long line under distraction, try in a SAFELY FENCED AREA with no distractions and no leash. Remember, start from step one.

Is your trainer helping you with this? Maybe you should take some private classes so your trainer can work with you on this. Remember, you do have a teenager and this is the period of button-pushing. You can't compare your dog to other dogs because Thunder is an individual who may be at a different stage of development than the other dogs. Maybe for the next few months he cannot be trusted off leash, that's fine. Some dogs are NEVER trustworthy off leash, please be prepared for that. If off leash work is important to you, maybe you want to talk to an e-collar trainer like Lou Castle on this board. Be aware that the e-collar is a great tool but many e-collar trainers are horrible.

Finally, you need to seriously work on him rushing out the door. We have taught Renji that he is to wait for a release before going out the door and he knows that if he blows through us he will get a hefty correction because that is a life-safety issue. You should be able to open a door without worrying that your dog will blow through you and bolt out the door.


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

Only thing I can say is teenager... yes keep working on him and you should get there once he matures. Jesse recall use to be a beautiful thing, but when he hit his teenager stages it is not 100 percent but we keep working on him.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

The first time I went through your post, I was saying this sounds like you may have pushed too fast to get to the next level. But you are now also dealing with a challenging age.

Are you making the recall in the house a game (FUN!) or just doing obedience. One (of many) exercise/games-In the house get some small treats, call your dog. When he gets to you praise like it's the best thing on the planet and toss (not give!) the treat a short distance away. When the pup gets to it and eats it, call him again. Repeat praise, toss another treat, recall. When he gets into the game move it outdoors to an enclosed area and play the game again.

Another thing to do. Find the toy that your dog loves, that he will come and get any and every time you go for it or pick it up. Put this toy into your training and "come to me" bag. It only comes out when you are out and about. And you should have at least two of these. When he looks distracted or about to move off, pull out his favorite toy-be prepared to play with it and him for a while as the attraction will quickly go away if you immediately put him back on leash or leave every time.

Stop comparing your dog with "others his age" it is just going to add to your frustration level. Easier said than done, but you need to control your frustration and trying to compare your dog at this age to others doesn't help. 

The most important thing you have to do is get rid of these two thoughts:

" ... I am always going to doubt if he will do it.."
"I can't move away from him at all, because I am always going to doubt if he will do it"

Again easier said than done. You need to get to point where you know Thunder will get there. During those times when he seems to be difficult - focus on those moments where he did respond the way you wanted and know he will become more solid. He is feeding off your emotions and "signals" every moment you two are together so make and keep them as positive as possible.

Don't get frustrated with it. Take a step back and move forward a little slower. Consider it a time to learn more about Thunder and you and your bonding together. And make it a fun learning time. And know that he will come around and you two will be off to the races.

Good Luck


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## networkn (May 28, 2008)

I guess the problem I have, from my perspective, is that he "knows" the commands. 

I think the stay thing isn't too much of a problem, I need to understand his limitations. He had been perfect all day with the stay, but it was hot, the class had been over an hour long and puppies were playing within eyesight of him. I think I overstretched him and expected too much. Is this a fair assessment?

The recall is definately a problem. I think the other thing is that where I see other dogs really into their owners, Thunder is busy looking around at all the sights and I can't get his attention. I spend a lot of time "checking him" and I think I need to go back to basics and be able to get him to "watch" me. Perhaps I should get those things working and then worry about the recall does that sound right? 

Come seems so natural to me, and it's quite ingrained in me, what commands do you guys use?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you've gotten some great suggestions so far, and I'll add my 2 cents since I also have a 10mth old )

First,,even tho you think he knows the "come" command, for his own reasons he's choosing to ignore it..Why? cause whatever he is doing is much more beneficial to HIM than COMING to you . 

I'm not sure what you do when he doesn't come? Are you yelling "come come come" repeating your command? If so,,then he's most likely tuned you out, repetition of commands can become 'nagging' to a dog, and who wants to be nagged? (just saying that as an example not saying your nagging your dog)

Since he chooses to ignore your come command,,he's not ready to be offleash..he's most likely to distracted and interested in the big world around him..

This is what I'd do,,I'd find a really HIGH value treat,,only to be used when 'training'. Whether it's hotdogs, chicken, liver,,something he really LOVES. Have it on you 'always',,around your house, out in your yard (provided it's fenced),,call him once,,(frequently during just everyday life) he comes,,he's rewarded,,if he just "checks in" with you,,reward him for it..he ignores you,,,ignore HIM..

On a long line, or 6ft leash,,go for a walk,,I would totally ignore him, give him the length of leash, and WALK,,(like your on a mission),,ignore him,,he forges,,you change direction, he pulls, change direction,,I would do this atleast 20 minutes a day (we do this in our ob class and it works!) eventually with YOU ignoring him,,he's gonna wonder what the deal is? WHY am I being ignored? and start checking out YOU,,when he does reward him with that high value reward,,when he is off in never never land,,ignore him and keep going..

I've found ignoring a dog can be a good way to get their attention)..While obviously the above may not 'make' your dog come when called,,it's working on getting the dog to focus on YOU,,focusing on YOU leads to reliable recalls..

I've been very blessed with all the gsd's I've had in that,,every one of them have always had/have excellent recalls,,My 10mth old has always been offleash where it's allowed & safe, as in hiking and such..

Definately don't get frustrated,,your dog will pick up on it and will get just as frustrated as you ) 

Hang in there,,puppies can be real buttheads when the mood strikes them
diane


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## networkn (May 28, 2008)

Thanks guys for the advice, I think this will work. I need to get myself organized which is hard since I am busy at work, we have a baby on the way and there are lots of things happening right now. 

I find it hard to get treats arranged to be always on me. Especially since the high value ones are perishable, and like sausage, finding a container that is portable, and easy to clean and quick to remove sausage from is turning out to be not too easy. 

Also I wanted to verify that I understand something correctly. 

When I am teaching him something, like "watch" and say he does something that isn't the command I want.. say for example I say watch and he sits, do I say no, and then give no treat, or do I say nothing.. I guess what I am wondering about is, at what point do I ask him to do a command again if he hasn't done it? I am not sure I am making myself clear... With a command like watch, how long should a 10 month old puppy be able to hold a "watch" for? What about a stay?

Do you guys recommend a particular clicker training book or dvd? I prefer DVD's or Video's as they are visual and *I* learn better this way.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Everett54Are you making the recall in the house a game (FUN!) or just doing obedience. One (of many) exercise/games-In the house get some small treats, call your dog. When he gets to you praise like it's the best thing on the planet and toss (not give!) the treat a short distance away. When the pup gets to it and eats it, call him again. Repeat praise, toss another treat, recall. When he gets into the game move it outdoors to an enclosed area and play the game again.


I've been doing this with Halo, but I do give her a treat for coming to me, (as well as praise her enthusiastically), and THEN I toss another treat to get her to move away from me, and call her back again, praise/give treat, toss treat, etc. At first I just sit on the floor or in a chair or stand there, but once she got the idea I started running away from her as soon as I call her. It becomes a fast paced game that dogs love. You can do it all over the house, and then try in it the backyard. 

We started puppy class yesterday (she's 3 months old), and are supposed to be having her work for all her food rather than eating meals out of a bowl, so we are to use her kibble as training treats. They want us to save the yummy treats for class because it's much more distracting there. But for this game, I use kibble to toss away, and then a high value treat for the recall. In fact, it's a good idea to have one especially good treat that you ONLY use for recall training. It can be a jar of chicken baby food, (let him lick it out of the jar), spray cheese in a can, dried sardines, a squeeze tube of peanut butter, something that he only gets for the recall. 

It's not that hard to have treats on you at all times, there are many tasty treats that don't need refrigeration. Yummy Chummies are soft salmon treats, and they also make salmon jerky. There are several good brands of jerky treats - Solid Gold, Wellness, Canz. Zukes Mini Naturals come in perfect little pea sized bits in several flavors, there's freeze dried liver cubes, Liver Biscotti - my dogs love all of them. I always have an assortment of tasty treats in my treat bag when I'm training a new puppy, and I wear it all the time around the house so I'm always ready to reward good behavior, or to trade for something she's not supposed to have. 

When I'm training and the dog does something other than what I want, I don't reward it. You can use a negative marker such as "oops!" or "nope" or "try again", (or not) and then wait. In your example your dog is sitting instead of watching. Is he also watching you? If you don't care (I personally wouldn't) it's perfectly fine if he sits and THEN watches you, simply wait for the behavior you cued before marking and rewarding. 

As far as how long a 10 month old can hold a watch or a stay, it totally depends on the dog, the distraction level of the environment you're working in, and the amount of time you've spent working on it.


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## networkn (May 28, 2008)

Hi There!

Couple more questions, when training "watch" you would want to lengthen the time over time, that he "watches" to the point he can do it for a long time, how would this be achieved? If he looks away or gets distracted, would I repeat the command again.. at what timeframe do you mark the behaviour?

My sister said that whilst I am training recall he shouldn't be offleash even inside. Thing is, he does come when he is onleash because he knows I'll check him if not. It's how I have been working his retrieve as well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

When I start working on longer eye contact I do it very gradually, and initially in a low distraction environment. At first I mark and reward for a fleeting glance at my face. But once I'm getting that pretty consistently I hold out for more time, but maybe just one or two seconds. I''ll say "gooood, gooood" to keep it going, but I don't give the command again. If the dog looks away, I'll say "oops!" or "ah" and when they look back, time starts over. (I count silently in my head.) No reward unless I get eye contact for whatever duration I require. I'll also use noises to get their attention back on me, like clicking my tongue, and then as soon as they look back, I'll say "that's it, gooood" in a soothing voice to keep it going. 

When you've got three seconds of eye contact, go for 5 seconds. When you've worked up to 10 seconds, start mixing it up so the dog never knows how long you'll require eye contact before the reward - 2 seconds, 7 seconds, 5 seconds, 10 seconds, 4 seconds, 1 second, etc. 

I don't see why he shouldn't be off leash during training in the house, maybe that's your problem? I do most of my training at home off leash so I'm never relying on the leash to keep the dog active and engaged. Maybe start over on the recall with really short distances in the house off leash. Lure with a treat at first if necessary, but if you don't need to I wouldn't do that. Call him and run backwards a few feet, then mark and reward. 

Work on the whiplash turn, where you mark the exact second his head whips around towards you, and then the dog gets the reward when he comes to you. Tossing the treat away from you and then calling the dog and running away, or just backwards for a few steps, is a great way to work on that. For the whiplash turn you're not waiting until he comes all the way back to mark ("yes!" or with a clicker), it's the very first movement of him reorienting to you.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Not sure how open-minded you are to a different tract altogether, but since your dog obviously knows the recall command, and simply challenges you to "come and get me, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah", the link below shows a way to get your dog to know he shouldn't challenge you on recall. Of course, since your dog already knows what he's supposed to do, you just need the reinforcement part, with lots of praise and possibly treats offered, too, once he understands.

http://loucastle.com/recall.htm


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## networkn (May 28, 2008)

Thanks MrLeadFoot, but at this stage I'd prefer not to encourage him in this manner, if some of these other ideas don't work, then I may be forced to go this direction.

Yesterday at the shepherd club someone noticed his check chain was way too big/long. This was allowing him to shrug it off. This is now resolved, it also allows me a quicker correction. I have ordered a clicker and book and will be watching some youtube tonight for it. There is a trainer at the club I know works with Thunder a lot and I trust him. I am going to ask him to assist me in person 1 on 1 for a fee and see if I can get this on track.


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## networkn (May 28, 2008)

A few other questions I had: 

Do you guys have a command for training start/stop? I usually grab the check chain and to him this means training or walking time. When he runs around the house I don't usually have a collar on him. When we are done training I say "ok" which is like a release command I use to allow him from a sit/stay or anything else I have been making him wait for, then we play some. 

Do your puppies have collars on them all the time? Check chains etc?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Check chains/choke chains can be the worst collar to use for training. They get out of position very easily, don't deliver effective corrections, and are very easily misused. I'd suggest switching to a martingale or a prong collar. 

I say "ready" to jazz up my dog before we start something big but we train all the time in the house just by doing little commands. Renji does not wear any collar in the house. "Break" is my release command. We DO train without a leash at home and also in safely fenced areas. 

Also, I do not teach sit/stay or down/stay. IMO, "sit" should mean "sit until I tell you otherwise" and the same with "down," otherwise the dog controls when he wants to get up. No way- if I give a command, he does it until I give him another command or the release. The only exceptions are "get" (get away from me a second) and "lie down" (down wherever, at least for a few seconds, my actual "down" command is "platz").


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

My dogs only have collars on when we are heading out somewhere. 

I will use "ready" when in a formal training session in organized classes or when we are working on exercises we will use in obedience or other trials. And I also use "break" to release.

But I will also just use a command such as come/front/heel without using ready at various times or places.

It will come down to your comfort level with consistency. You may want to try to stick to one routine until you are comfortable with Thunder's response and consistency. And then slowly add distractions and variations to build on that foundation.


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