# I need Help ASAP



## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

My wife and myself are at our wits end. This forum is one of our last hopes for our GSD. I will keep things brief but as informational as possible.
My house consists of 4 dogs.
1 Chocolate lab- lazy and older male. 100 lbs. owned since puppy.
2. GSD- owned 1 year, was a rescue. is probably close to 3 yrs old. Female
3. yorkie- 6 lbs male.
4. Golden retriever brown- female, less than a year old. 45 lbs probably. 

These dogs have been together for at least a year and have had no issues, other than typical dog issues, fighting over a bone or a toy. Nothing major.
all the dogs play together, romp and run through the house. 

One night about 3:30am the retriever walked down the hallway and the GSD just flat attacked her. We burst out of the bedroom split them up. The retriever ran and hid, the GSD was just angry and we separated them for the rest of the night until later in the morning. When they got back together they played and were fine the entire day. That evening the retriever was in the kitchen eating. The GSD was in another room, she saw my wife walk out of the kitchen and she charged in and attacked the retriever again... same deal broke them up, retriever ran and hid. the retriever isnt even trying to be dominant. She immediately submits.
Other facts- The GSD loves our yorkie, she even helps feed him out of her own food bowl. 
She does not get aggressive over toys. She doesnt really play with them.
When she goes out to pee she will find where the retriever pee'd and cover it with her own.
She does not like the retriever to come inside from being outside before she does. If i open the door they come running but the GSD will always charge her and make sure she doesnt get to the door first.
We spoke with a GSD specific trainer, he does things for the police etc. He said it was a female vs female dominance thing, he suggested the GSD would have to find a new home with no female dogs. FFW we found a home, husband wife, 2 kids, 1 male yorkie. Figured it would be great. 15 acres to run on etc. The GSD has been there a few days everything has been fine. We get a call today that the GSD nearly killed their yorkie after they walked out of the house. They returned the dog to us, saying otherwise she was a great dog. So now it is not a female vs female thing.
We dont know what to do aside from putting her in a home where she is the only dog is putting her to sleep the only solution?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Are they spayed and neutered?
Sounds like classic same-sex aggression to me.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Are they spayed and neutered?
> Sounds like classic same-sex aggression to me.


All are fixed, the GSD is 'suspect' but the vet believes they are fixed.
I thought it was same sex aggression too until today when she attacked a male yorkie...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I believe the yorkie in the second home was a male, so not same sex aggression there

Frankly, I'd find a home with no other dogs and make sure you inform them of her behaviors.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I believe the yorkie in the second home was a male, so not same sex aggression there
> 
> Frankly, I'd find a home with no other dogs and make sure you inform them of her behaviors.


thats what I am going to try and do.
My wife is afraid this will turn toward human aggression.
She hasnt been terribly aggressive toward people but she doesnt just allow someone to walk into the house unannounced either. (which i like)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Frankly, your dog was in a heightened mode, in a new home, free access to a dog she does not know. She works fine in your home with your Yorkie and your older lab. 

The problem is that you brought it another female. _That _female is not reaching sexual maturity, and your GSD bitch is simply not ok with having another bitch there. 

I think that you should rehome the Golden puppy, and be a three-dog home while you have a GSD.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

In my experience with same sex aggression, spaying won't have any impact on the behavior. It goes beyond hormones. As for her attacking the other dog in the home you just placed her in, there are several possibilities as to cause. But it does sound like she would do best in a home that has no other pets.

OP, I would contact a GSD specific rescue and ask if they can courtesy post her on their website. List her as a dog that needs a home without other pets. I would try to place her in an appropriate home before thinking about euthanizing her as unadoptable. Perhaps if you make it known up front when you contact rescues that you will keep her until she is placed you'll have a better chance of getting someone to respond.

Until she is placed in a home, keep her separate from the other dogs by crating her when they are loose in the house.

Good luck.
Sheilah
ETA: Dog-dog aggression has nothing to do with being aggressive to people.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Dog- aggression or other animal aggression doesn't transfer to humans, not like that, unless she's a genetic mess and is going to be aggressive to humans anyway. 
But someone could get injured trying to break up fights.

Crate and rotate until you can find a spot for her. Enlist the help of a good rescue, would be a good plan.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dog aggression has nothing to do with human aggression. 

I feel bad for you. But it will be a whole lot easier to rehome the Golden puppy than to rehome a GSD that has a problem with other dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> Frankly, your dog was in a heightened mode, in a new home, free access to a dog she does not know. She works fine in your home with your Yorkie and your older lab.
> 
> The problem is that you brought it another female. _That _female is not reaching sexual maturity, and your GSD bitch is simply not ok with having another bitch there.
> 
> I think that you should rehome the Golden puppy, and be a three-dog home while you have a GSD.


This may be a good plan...Goldens with no issues would be easier to place than an aggressive GSD.

BTW, we have a rescue and foster and we've found that yes, initially things will be okay when we foster, but sooner or later, there is a dog (maybe 1 in 4-5 dogs that come through) that'll throw the balance off badly.

The last notable time it happened (other than we're dealing with it currently) one of our Dachshunds (a 20lb. one) almost killed two of our other dogs, and he's not been aggressive since the foster left. 
The foster wasn't even really the target of his aggression but we had to keep her separated after that.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Do you know what exactly happened with the yorkie? It sounds like what the GSD was doing at your house is same sex/dominance behaviors. So the fact she attacked the make yorkie is odd but GSDs could also easily hurt a dog that small without meaning to. I have had Dharma play with small dogs and I have to call her off because she is simply too rough for them.


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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

Regardless of what happened with the second Yorkie I would say this is same sex aggression towards your dog. As for the second Yorkie, I would venture a guess that it may well have been prey drive kicking in when she went after him.

I would look for a good experienced home with no other dogs to take her in. There is no need to consider having her PTS. Dog on dog aggression does not translate into human aggression.

In the meantine I would keep these two dogs separated at all times, you need to keep your other one safe it is not fair to let this happen again, If you have to, crate and rotate until you find a suitable home to place her in. Possibly contact some local reputable rescues and ask if they could assist you in helping to find a suitable home.

Good Luck


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> Do you know what exactly happened with the yorkie? It sounds like what the GSD was doing at your house is same sex/dominance behaviors. So the fact she attacked the make yorkie is odd but GSDs could also easily hurt a dog that small without meaning to. I have had Dharma play with small dogs and I have to call her off because she is simply too rough for them.


not sure what happened at all, all they said was they walked out of the house/room and GSD went on attack mode. Nearly killed it, they called us from the Vet ER.
I agree finding a home for the retriever would be easier but my wife is fearfull for our yorkie now... there is a trust issue now.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

BahCan said:


> Regardless of what happened with the second Yorkie I would say this is same sex aggression towards your dog. As for the second Yorkie, I would venture a guess that it may well have been prey drive kicking in when she went after him.
> 
> I would look for a good experienced home with no other dogs to take her in. There is no need to consider having her PTS. Dog on dog aggression does not translate into human aggression.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. All I have heard is to shoot the GSD. "its gonna turn on your daughter." etc.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

So they brought the dog home, knowing she'd been aggressive in your home, and gave her free range of the whole house immediately? 
Is the Yorkie going to make it?



> All I have heard is to shoot the GSD.


Well, as selzer said, it's probably due to the fact you brought home the Retriever puppy, another female.
So why should the GSD pay with her life??


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> So they brought the dog home, knowing she'd been aggressive in your home, and gave her free range of the whole house immediately?
> Is the Yorkie going to make it?
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno either. Thats just what people said, she is a liability.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

savage22 said:


> Thanks so much. All I have heard is to shoot the GSD. "its gonna turn on your daughter." etc.



What??? Dear Lord, there are some ignorant people out there. As has been said, dog aggression does not translate to human aggression. Plus the GSD was not aggressive to your other dogs, just to the female (and maturing) Golden. 

Since the other people left the GSD and yorkie alone right after bringing it into their house, you don't really know what happened. Prey drive? Rough housing gone bad? Or was the yorkie in the GSDs face, being obnoxious? Or did the GSD just attack the yorkie out of the blue? Who knows? No one was there.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> Frankly, your dog was in a heightened mode, in a new home, free access to a dog she does not know. She works fine in your home with your Yorkie and your older lab.
> 
> The problem is that you brought it another female. _That _female is not reaching sexual maturity, and your GSD bitch is simply not ok with having another bitch there.
> 
> I think that you should rehome the Golden puppy, and be a three-dog home while you have a GSD.





selzer said:


> Dog aggression has nothing to do with human aggression.
> 
> I feel bad for you. But it will be a whole lot easier to rehome the Golden puppy than to rehome a GSD that has a problem with other dogs.


I 100% agree with Sue. I'm a firm believer of First In, Last Out unless circumstances demand otherwise. Your GSD was fine until you brought the GR puppy in. When you bring a puppy or dog into a home with other dogs, there is always the chance that it won't work out. 

No, dog aggression does not transfer to human aggression or vice versa. I have one Boxer who is DA and loves people AND loves the dog she grew up with. Another Boxer who is HA and is fine with strange dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Most people aren't very educated about dogs...and that comes from a rescue perspective where we run into very uneducated people daily.

There's nothing wrong with your dog. She doesn't like the puppy. She's stressed over that.
People can't fathom that dogs have feelings and emotions too, they aren't little robots with fur, or humans with fur.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Most people aren't very educated about dogs...and that comes from a rescue perspective where we run into very uneducated people daily.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with your dog. She doesn't like the puppy. She's stressed over that.
> People can't fathom that dogs have feelings and emotions too, they aren't little robots with fur, or humans with fur.


God bless your common sense.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, what happened at the new place should have NEVER happened. No one should have left a 6 pound dog alone with a new dog, when that new dog is in an alterred state, off balance, re-homed, etc. That was human-fault all the way. A dog is ONLY a dog, and that little dog was not FAMILY to her. 

Now, about the same-sex aggression, that will not go across other dogs, like on walks, or on people at all. It is pack/same-sex aggression. It is kind of like asking your wife if she minds you moving your high school sweetheart in until she finishes college.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Most people aren't very educated about dogs...and that comes from a rescue perspective where we run into very uneducated people daily.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with your dog. She doesn't like the puppy. She's stressed over that.
> People can't fathom that dogs have feelings and emotions too, they aren't little robots with fur, or humans with fur.



:thumbup: I have found that "most people" aren't educated about a whole lot of things, unfortunately.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

selzer said:


> No, what happened at the new place should have NEVER happened. No one should have left a 6 pound dog alone with a new dog, when that new dog is in an alterred state, off balance, re-homed, etc. That was human-fault all the way. A dog is ONLY a dog, and that little dog was not FAMILY to her.
> 
> Now, about the same-sex aggression, that will not go across other dogs, like on walks, or on people at all. It is pack/same-sex aggression. It is kind of like asking your wife if she minds you moving your high school sweetheart in until she finishes college.


i agree with this. I was surprised they walked out of the house like that.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I totally agree with the others, hard decision to make, but I'm with the others, either rehome the golden, which may be easier to do, or rehome the gsd as an only dog and with people who are knowledgeable


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I totally agree with the others, hard decision to make, but I'm with the others, either rehome the golden, which may be easier to do, or rehome the gsd as an only dog and with people who are knowledgeable


i really appreciate you guys putting my mind to rest.
We will talk to some local shelters and try and find her a good home that meets the proper criteria. 
I couldnt imagine having to have this dog killed. She is a wonderful dog.


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## Manny6575 (Sep 30, 2012)

Hey Savage

So glad you came here! The people telling you to just kill it that it was only a dog had me pissed off! That was crazy talk and I was flippin out!

Hope everything works out and you can find either dog a good home.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I agree with the people who have said "last in, first out". The last dog that comes in and upsets the dog already living there should be the one to get rehomed. It would also probably be much easier to find a home for a golden puppy as well. But if you are going to rehome the GSD, like people have said, do so as an only dog and to people with experience.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Manny6575 said:


> Hey Savage
> 
> So glad you came here! The people telling you to just kill it that it was only a dog had me pissed off! That was crazy talk and I was flippin out!
> 
> Hope everything works out and you can find either dog a good home.


I was wondering if anyone from there would look me up here.
I would never kill a dog like that. I rescued the dog and I want to see it live life to the fullest.


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## Manny6575 (Sep 30, 2012)

Im hvacak47 there. 

Hope this eased your mind and you can enjoy the rest of Christmas.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Manny6575 said:


> Im hvacak47 there.
> 
> Hope this eased your mind and you can enjoy the rest of Christmas.


it definitely had. I was nearly in tears thinking about having to put this dog down. I mean my wife and daughter cried when we found her a home, that was bad enough but thinking of putting a bullet in the dog that just wants to love us? its stupid talk. Thanks for pointing me this way bro.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

"Put a bullet in the dog"?!!  Oh my. I am glad you came here. No dog deserves to be killed just because it doesn't like other dogs.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

So.. What makes the Retriever pup so special? Why can't you rehome it ?
I just brought a pup home a few weeks ago
if the current dogs here reacted in anyway, the pup would be GONE. not the dogs who have lived here for years. not the ones who i have invested all of my heart and time into.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> "Put a bullet in the dog"?!!  Oh my. I am glad you came here. No dog deserves to be killed just because it doesn't like other dogs.


I agree. Just all around bad general advice.
"it will turn on a kid."


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> So.. What makes the Retriever pup so special? Why can't you rehome it ?
> I just brought a pup home a few weeks ago
> if the current dogs here reacted in anyway, the pup would be GONE. not the dogs who have lived here for years. not the ones who i have invested all of my heart and time into.


My wife isnt sure if she trusts the GSD now. Its just a trust thing now I guess.


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## Manny6575 (Sep 30, 2012)

Would the dog have to go to a single pet house or could it be homed with a large breed male?


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Manny6575 said:


> Would the dog have to go to a single pet house or could it be homed with a large breed male?


I have no idea. we have a big Lab but I couldnt tell you at this point.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Is there a friend you can send the golden pup to for 4-7 days and see how the gsd does then? That Might settle who should go. Dont let them talk you into killing this dog, it deserves a chance at life too.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Ok. So. I looked up your thread on the other site.
You should have expected that they would tell you to shoot her, that was on a gun forum!

Savage,
tell me. How much exercise and training does she get a day ? Does she go anywhere frequently (rides in the car, the park, etc) ?

Does she have a crate that she sleeps in ? & does she ever get any alone time with you?

Often in these cases.. There is LOTS of body language involved that you have looked over.. I'm sure right before the 'attacks' on the golden, she gets hard eye'd and stiff and stalks her.

Can you describe the attacks ? What does it sound / look like ?


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

and do NOT buy their alpha dominance bull****!
that will only make things worse
Why would a completely confident animal (a true alpha) attack?
it wouldnt
only those who are scared will attack, an 'alpha' has other means of establishing its dominance
and it is not through fighting
trying to be 'alpha' over a dog that is already scared only reinforces whatever fear she has currently
i have 2 GSDs and 2 Akitas, never lain a hand on them. if i did? they probably would piss themselves. if i do it enough times, they would take my face off.. and it would be well deserved!


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> Ok. So. I looked up your thread on the other site.
> You should have expected that they would tell you to shoot her, that was on a gun forum!
> 
> Savage,
> ...


She could definitely use more exercise. I had open heart surgery in august and have been recovering from that. As far as attacks go i cant tell because she waits till we arent in the room. Everything is fine until they are alone. Other than that they play and wrestle like normal. It sounds like all **** breaking lose. basically the retriever yelps/whines/runs the GSD is in police attack dog mode. hair standing up etc.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> and do NOT buy their alpha dominance bull****!
> that will only make things worse
> Why would a completely confident animal (a true alpha) attack?
> it wouldnt
> ...


I never could grasp that. I am top dog she knows that. I tell her she obeys. Its not a matter of who is top dog. They kept saying I as an owner need to be top dog. I already am...


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

savage22 said:


> I never could grasp that. I am top dog she knows that. I tell her she obeys. Its not a matter of who is top dog. They kept saying I as an owner need to be top dog. I already am...


They were telling you to alpha roll your dog (force her to lay down and hold her belly up) and show her you didn't 'approve' of her attacking the pup (hit her).
It is no wonder why so many people posted that their dogs were loony too, probably because they beat their dogs.


However, Savage.
I have an easy solution for you.
Do not leave the GSD unsupervised, ever! Where you go, she goes. If you need to do something without her, then put her in her crate.

I also noticed that you said she goes nutso when the golden walks by her crate.. That is probably extremely frustrating. where is her crate? could you put it in the laundry room or bathroom and shut the door ?

how do they play?
GSDs are very loud and rambunctious..!


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> They were telling you to alpha roll your dog (force her to lay down and hold her belly up) and show her you didn't 'approve' of her attacking the pup (hit her).
> It is no wonder why so many people posted that their dogs were loony too, probably because they beat their dogs.
> 
> 
> ...


Crate is in the living room. GSD is currently downstairs by herself. 3 dogs are up here with me. When they play the GSD will go on her back and the retriever will be standing. Our yorkie is the "cleaner" he goes around licking the other dogs ears and teeth all the time. ZERO aggression shown by any of the dogs toward him for it. If we arent in the room and the GSD is crated and the retriever walks in, GSD immediately growls and lunges at her through the cage. they play fine when im standing here but when i am not a switch gets flipped. We are going to look into a muzzle and maybe we can see what is going on then without any damage.

ALSO: if the GSD is up here and the other 3 are outside or shut in another room, the GSD actively searches the house room by room in search for her. Its like she is obsessed.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

savage22 said:


> Crate is in the living room. GSD is currently downstairs by herself. 3 dogs are up here with me. When they play the GSD will go on her back and the retriever will be standing. Our yorkie is the "cleaner" he goes around licking the other dogs ears and teeth all the time. ZERO aggression shown by any of the dogs toward him for it. If we arent in the room and the GSD is crated and the retriever walks in, GSD immediately growls and lunges at her through the cage. they play fine when im standing here but when i am not a switch gets flipped. We are going to look into a muzzle and maybe we can see what is going on then without any damage.


i do not think you should muzzle her and put her into the situation knowing what will probably happen
first of all, what if the golden decides to fight back ? the gsd cannot defend herself.
PLUS fights are VERY stressful for both parties! you could possibly scare the golden so bad that she will become reactive, cause health problems and maybe even escalate the situation.
every time you allow her to practice this behavior, it is one step closer to becoming a habit! it has only happened a few times so far, so it can be reversible. 

the crate thing is normal in most dogs. it is barrier frustration. ever been to an agility / obedience trial? people have their dogs in crates until it is their turn to run, and many of them go ballistic! it is like you being in a jail cell and you have to watch all of your friends have a party. you want to be out there with them.. but you are locked up.. so you get frustrated.



> ALSO: if the GSD is up here and the other 3 are outside or shut in another room, the GSD actively searches the house room by room in search for her. Its like she is obsessed.


that, to me.. is telling me.. she is REALLLLLYYYY bored. 
does she have a kong ? or any mentally stimulating toys?
try.. looking up 'clicker training'


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> i do not think you should muzzle her and put her into the situation knowing what will probably happen
> first of all, what if the golden decides to fight back ? the gsd cannot defend herself.
> PLUS fights are VERY stressful for both parties! you could possibly scare the golden so bad that she will become reactive, cause health problems and maybe even escalate the situation.
> every time you allow her to practice this behavior, it is one step closer to becoming a habit! it has only happened a few times so far, so it can be reversible.
> ...


okay ill scrap the muzzle idea. the retriever would never fight back she is ultra docile/submissive.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

savage22 said:


> okay ill scrap the muzzle idea. the retriever would never fight back she is ultra docile/submissive.


savage.. lets say, you were ultra docile. everytime you went to work, your coworker punched you. 
first few times "wow thats weird.." especially since you two work together so well
then it starts to get annoying
soon enough, you beat him to the punch.

those who are 'submissive' are not submissive forever. they have limits and thresholds just as everyone else and these limits need to be respected.

also how you say they play, the gsd on her back, that is more submissive than the golden looming over her !


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> savage.. lets say, you were ultra docile. everytime you went to work, your coworker punched you.
> first few times "wow thats weird.." especially since you two work together so well
> then it starts to get annoying
> soon enough, you beat him to the punch.
> ...


well thats why she was rescued she was hiding in the back of the crate at the shelter and they were afraid noone would take her. she hid for 2 days after we got her. I dont doubt what your saying but she is no where close to retaliation. either way Ill keep the instances low as possible.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

angryrainbow said:


> So.. What makes the Retriever pup so special? Why can't you rehome it ?
> I just brought a pup home a few weeks ago
> if the current dogs here reacted in anyway, the pup would be GONE. not the dogs who have lived here for years. not the ones who i have invested all of my heart and time into.


It really isn't that simple. Weeks are not months. The thing is, a bitch is rarely same-sex aggressive to a pack member until that pack member starts to reach sexual maturity. So if you have a pup at 8 weeks old and the problem does not crop up until the pup is 9-12 months old, you are going to be in a quandry about rehoming either dog. 

The gut reaction is to re-home the agressor, because let's face it, when you have to separate dogs you care about because they act like they want to KILL each other it is hard. It feels like you are having a heart attack it is fast, terrifying, frustrating, helplessness, adrenalin rush all at once. I can understand why that would make you have second thoughts about having the dog around kids. 

But dog-dog, pack-aggression, same-sex aggression is totally a dog thing. And it is just a part of our ability to live with critters, and treat them like critters, understand that they are critters. The dog is not bad, she is a dog. In her workings, there is another bitch who is encroaching / threatening her position there. It has to go (in her opinion). The only way this is dangerous for your kid is if the kid gets in between the two dogs. Which is not impossible. 

I would feel responsible for the GSD. And if it was the other way around, the Golden was the elder, I would feel responsible for the Golden. If I had 3 dogs, and brought a fourth and that disturbed the balance that the dogs had, then that would be the dog that would have to be re-homed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

savage22 said:


> okay ill scrap the muzzle idea. the retriever would never fight back she is ultra docile/submissive.





angryrainbow said:


> savage.. lets say, you were ultra docile. everytime you went to work, your coworker punched you.
> first few times "wow thats weird.." especially since you two work together so well
> then it starts to get annoying
> soon enough, you beat him to the punch.
> ...


Listen to this^^^^

I had a friendly, playful, GSD who was exposed to a fostered doberman with anxiety thru the roof. Whenever he would feel closed in, he would turn on the nearest dog, often my Jax. So my confident, friendly, GSD has been dealing with fear aggression towards other dogs for 4 of her 5 years. Eventually, your GR will have enough and learn to fight back. She will then move on to the "I'll get you before you get me" and you have alot of work ahead of you. This is NOT fun.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

a lady my wife works with knows someone who trains GSD for the police, she will discuss this situation in the next day or two with them.

edit: 
also, say the GSD is in the living room, if i even whisper to another dog or pet them, the GSD would run in and kind of nuzzle the other dog out of the way and try and get the affection. whats the deal with that?


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

savage22 said:


> a lady my wife works with knows someone who trains GSD for the police, she will discuss this situation in the next day or two with them.
> 
> edit:
> also, say the GSD is in the living room, if i even whisper to another dog or pet them, the GSD would run in and kind of nuzzle the other dog out of the way and try and get the affection. whats the deal with that?



That sounds like resource guarding. The GSD (does she have a name we could start calling her by?) sees you as "her's" and doesn't want the other dogs to get what she sees as belonging to her.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> That sounds like resource guarding. The GSD (does she have a name we could start calling her by?) sees you as "her's" and doesn't want the other dogs to get what she sees as belonging to her.


GSD's name is Nala. 
Retriever is Bella.
Nala loves our attention and is obsessed with it honestly. Everyone said it was just typical GSD behavior.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

savage22 said:


> GSD's name is Nala.
> Retriever is Bella.
> Nala loves our attention and is obsessed with it honestly. Everyone said it was just typical GSD behavior.



Yes, GSDs are velcro dogs. They will want to be wherever you are but she should also allow you to pay attention to the other dogs. Nudging them out of the way and being pushy is not acceptable. She has to learn that she will get attention from you but on your terms. When she does this, stop all attention and get up and walk away. Every time. She will learn quickly that this behavior gets her the exact opposite of what she wants. You then can set two of the dogs in front of you and pet and give attention to both. But the minute she starts to push the other dog out of the way, get up and walk away.

My old foster, Tessa, used to resource guard me terribly. When ever my dog Dharma came over to get attention, Tessa, would be right there. She would even growl at Dharma. When this happened, thanks to this forum, I learned how to put a stop to it.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

jealous is a very good description, ill put it that way.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> Yes, GSDs are velcro dogs. They will want to be wherever you are but she should also allow you to pay attention to the other dogs. Nudging them out of the way and being pushy is not acceptable. She has to learn that she will get attention from you but on your terms. When she does this, stop all attention and get up and walk away. Every time. She will learn quickly that this behavior gets her the exact opposite of what she wants. You then can set two of the dogs in front of you and pet and give attention to both. But the minute she starts to push the other dog out of the way, get up and walk away.
> 
> My old foster, Tessa, used to resource guard me terribly. When ever my dog Dharma came over to get attention, Tessa, would be right there. She would even growl at Dharma. When this happened, thanks to this forum, I learned how to put a stop to it.


Yeah i ignore her if she gets pushy, it works, she usually whines and paws at you and then goes and lays down. My wife is an ER nurse and she is almost convinced she has a thyroid problem, she found states saying 62% of aggressiveness in dogs is thyroid. symptom wise it is her perfectly.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, most people will describe it that way.
Dogs don't get "jealous". They don't have that emotion. They do, however, see things or people as "belonging" to them and want to keep other dogs from that thing (resource). 

You should search NILIF- Nothing In Life Is Free- on this site. She needs to learn that nothing is "hers" but it is yours. Be it food, toys, treats or your attention. She gets things because you allow her. She should be working for everything right now. You only need to make her sit or give paw, or something before she gets anything, that includes your attention. This means before you feed her, before you open the door for her to go outside, before she gets a treat, before she get any attention. Also, when she comes to you for attention, you need to send her away. Wait a minute then you can call her back to pet or love on her. She needs to learn that she get attention when you say so, not when she does. Everyone in the family needs to be doing this. 

If you are letting her get on the furniture, stop that immediately. Dogs see height as a dominance thing and letting her get on the furniture makes her believe she is equal to you.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

It wouldn't hurt to take her to the vet and get her checked. What you were describing though is classic same sex aggression.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh and pictures of Nala (and the other doggies) are a requirement here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> Yes, most people will describe it that way.
> Dogs don't get "jealous". They don't have that emotion.


Actually, yes they do. I read a study on it a couple months ago. As well as them reacting to "fair play". It was all pretty interesting.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> Oh and pictures of Nala (and the other doggies) are a requirement here.










[/IMG]

from left to right,
Tink, sebastian, Bella, Nala. all wanting attention.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Actually, yes they do. I read a study on it a couple months ago. As well as them reacting to "fair play". It was all pretty interesting.



I had to look that up. Very interesting. I knew about the "fair play" deal. You have to treat them equally. I know if I give something to one without doing it for the other, I get the stink eye.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Savage- VERY nice pack you have there!


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> Savage- VERY nice pack you have there!


id really like to keep it that way. 
I just wish it was the way things were a few days ago, just all the dogs playing and having fun, noone trying to kill the other one. Everyone friends again. etc.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

So we have an appointment at the Vet today with Nala.
My wife did some research and believes it could be a thyroid issue, a tumor of some kind has been tossed mentioned on several occasions. I guess bloodwork would reveal either of those symptoms.

Currently we are keeping Nala downstairs, pretty much by herself and no interaction with the other dogs. I will probably walk her some today if i can.
Is this advisable? She doesnt have to stay in a kennel all day or anything like that. Or would it be better to briefly bring her up here and put her in the kennel? I dont want her to stress anymore than she does or than GSD already seem to do. 

Nala has always been an 'antsy' dog. She obsesses over simple things like I have mentioned before. If you pet another dog she will come running to nuzzle the other dog out of the way. Certain people she is ultra excited to see, my sister who originally rescued her is one. Nala will go berserk when she comes over tackling and licking and just generally wants to love her to death. 

Any further advice until we find her a home? completely separate from the other dogs until then? My wife is still considering a muzzle. Give me more feedback on why this is bad.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> If you pet another dog she will come running to nuzzle the other dog out of the way.


Guarding behavior. She's insecure. Stop her from doing that.


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## FirstTimeGSD (Jul 31, 2012)

savage22 said:


> My wife isnt sure if she trusts the GSD now. Its just a trust thing now I guess.


Have you tried sharing all this great feedback with your wife, seeing if perhaps her perspective changes a bit (like yours has, evidently). Seems to me like rehoming the golden would be a lot easier than the GSD with "aggression issues"


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

FirstTimeGSD said:


> Have you tried sharing all this great feedback with your wife, seeing if perhaps her perspective changes a bit (like yours has, evidently). Seems to me like rehoming the golden would be a lot easier than the GSD with "aggression issues"


ill have her read the thread today, she was at work last night when the bulk of it was posted.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think dogs get jealous, and some females take jealous to a whole other level. I call it the Green Gene. They have a lot of the same emotions we do, they are are canine emotions, which are different, maybe more raw, more simple, deeper, stronger, and some dogs have a much harder time not reacting to their emotions. Fear, anger, jealousy, grief, loneliness, excitement, contentment, playful or happy, and others. 

people conceal their emotions, dogs only do so if they have been trained (usually replacing that emotion with fearfulness, and training them not to respond to fear normally). If a dog who is fearful or angry growls, and is beaten for growling, they may just cower or go to the next step. 

I am really up in air about anger. How much of the anger that we see, even in dog fights, even in the dog that started the fight is not anger but fear? A dog sticks its hair up, and barks and lunges like a nutcase, growling, snarling, snapping. Basically the dog is saying get the heck out of here! But jealousy turns into anger, turns into rage. 

A dog that rages without jealousy, I don't know, that seems like it might be a problem with how they are wired or a disease of some sort affecting their brain. 

I don't know about fair play either. Some of my dogs are let out in the field to run, some are not. Sometimes I come home with bones for five of them, the rest of them do not get bones. I don't get the stink-eye, the bone-receivers do not get the stink eye. Mostly the girls are anticipating and hopeful that I will get to them and give them a bone. If I say, "That's it, that is all I have," They will turn and go back to whatever they were doing. And Joy will start working on a plan to relieve a bone-receiver of their prize. (Somehow she always succeeds too -- and they are in separate kennels!) But there is no animosity, so I suppose the dogs do not resource guard treats or food. Good. 

It is funny though, some of them will cry and bitch when I pay attention to a specific bitch. Odie will bitch and moan if I pay attention to Jenna. Ninja will bitch and moan if I pay attention to Heidi. It is seriously interesting. I am sure letting those pairs get together would be a mistake. On the other hand, Tori shows her werewolf teeth toward Jenna and Jenna doesn't give her the time of day. The same with Ninja. Ninja broke free of a crate while I was moving Jenna and her pups from one kennel to another, and Jenna grabbed her by the muzzle and held her down. I grabbed the puppies and put them in a kennel and then dragged Ninja by the tail into another kennel got the gate between and finally got them separated. Ninja was hurt and angry. Jenna wasn't even shaken up. I put her back in with her good sized pups, and no problems. Jenna is three years older than Ninja, but they are both mature bitches. I think there is something not quite right with Ninja. 

But yes, canine emotions are very interesting, and as for jealousy and love, if it looks like jealousy or love, and it acts like jealousy or love, than I don't see the problem with using the terms, so long as we maintain the understanding that these are dogs and not humans.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

I agree Selzer. Something else i just thought of, after nala attacked bella the first time, they were separated for many hours. then when they were back together they played and everything like normal. I remember seeing Nala take her chin and put it on Bela's back and push down trying to get her to forcefully sit/lay down. I had never seen her do this before. She has even tried to 'hump' Bela before all this happened too. 

I think she is obsessed with Bela she interacts with her differently than all of our other dogs. Im starting to wonder if the yorkie attack is even relative at this point. There are a few consistent themes but alot of unknowns.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Sometimes you have to read a whole thread to be able to read "between the lines" and pick up on what is really going on.



> My wife isnt sure if she trusts the GSD now. Its just a trust thing now I guess.


Let me go out on a limb here. 3 dog pack, everyone is fine. New cute Golden introduced as a puppy. GSD sees its share of attention drop, gets antsy, still gives the pup a puppy pass. Wife loves on the new pup, her attention to the not-so-cute-anymore GSD wanes (not intentionally). Wife develops preference for Golden. Extremely perceptive GSD picks up on this. Meanwhile, Golden continues to grow and mature and becomes not a puppy but a more mature bitch. First incidents with GSD jealousy begin, just small things, but wife gets more defensive toward the GSD, "trust" issues develop, GSD (extremely sensitive and perceptive!) senses these, and sees wife "consoling" Golden over the big, mean GSD behaviors. GSD dominance assertion escalates to attacks.

Am I close?

Rehome the Golden, roll the clock back to the household you established for the pack as it was before, and restore the relationship between wife and the GSD.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

billsharp said:


> Sometimes you have to read a whole thread to be able to read "between the lines" and pick up on what is really going on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After the yorkie attack and it being male she is unsteady about letting Nala around our yorkie. Nala has always been a 'needy' dog when it comes to attention. she whines and cries alot but we were always told thats just how GSD are. Nothing really changed when Bela was introduced, but as she got older, probably things did change. I would say you are very close. Its easier to sympathize with a submissive and cute 'victim' than a grown stronger dog (while still cute) being the aggressor. I dont think of it that way, but women generally will. (not saying all or anything bad but its true.)


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## Questforfire (Apr 18, 2012)

Just read the whole thread. Sorry you are having problems between Nala and Bella.

If you got Nala from rescue initially, did you sign any paperwork to say she was to go back to rescue if you found you couldn't cope with her?

As everyone has already said dog on dog aggression has no correlation to human aggression. 

I am just making assumptions here from what I have read, but it sounds as though your GSD (and other dogs?) don't get all that much to do in terms of exercise, training, time away from home and each other? If this is the case, then you definitely need to up the stimulation your dogs get on a daily basis. Boredom could be playing a big part in the dynamics of your pack. A tired dog is a happy dog.

Nala and Bella should be kept separate when you are unable to keep a close eye on them. As you have said, the fights only occur when you are out of the room ... so, don't go out of a room and leave the two bitches in there together. 

Is there any scenario where you would consider keeping all of your dogs, or is it a definitely that one (Nala) has to find a new home? If the latter is the case, then definitely speak with a GSD breed specific rescue and explain the behaviour you are having problems with. Nala should go to an experienced GSD home, either as the only dog, or with a calm older male.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I agree with the people who say that the GR should be rehomed because she is the newest and youngest - why should the GSD be punished because you chose to bring in another dog? She was there first and sounds like she has had a rough life before! You made a commitment to this dog earlier, and it is really sad that she will lose her home - again - due to people's failure to keep their commitment. 

this thread has made me really sad.....

Lee


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Questforfire said:


> Just read the whole thread. Sorry you are having problems between Nala and Bella.
> 
> If you got Nala from rescue initially, did you sign any paperwork to say she was to go back to rescue if you found you couldn't cope with her?
> 
> ...


If we could rewind the clock before all this took place we would keep them all. I have personally wanted to get rid of all our dogs and get it down to 1-2 only.
Odly there isnt really a place to walk dogs here. We were going to have our yard fenced in but it was going to cost 6k to do it. There is a 'dog park', but its a bit of a drive and always terribly muddy. Nala doesnt like to play much, she never has. she wants to be petted and praised and keep a look out for bad guys/animals, she does chase the red laser dot though, I guess she figures its an animal. Our lab is pretty lazy, he is getting up in years. Bella and tink are full of energy and like to play, tug-o-war fetch etc are all options for them.
Nala was found running loose and about to get ran over, she wasnt saved from a shelter.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> I agree with the people who say that the GR should be rehomed because she is the newest and youngest - why should the GSD be punished because you chose to bring in another dog? She was there first and sounds like she has had a rough life before! You made a commitment to this dog earlier, and it is really sad that she will lose her home - again - due to people's failure to keep their commitment.
> 
> this thread has made me really sad.....
> 
> Lee


I agree. We just need to weigh it all out I guess.
edit:
Ill put it this way, if it was just me no wife or kids I would keep Nala over any of the others. But I have to consider my wifes feelings and my daughter as well. We will talk about it today more. 
Also muzzle good or bad? Wife still thinks it would be a good idea, because nala couldnt attack (sort of) and we could correct bad behavior better. I think it might be a short term fix to a long term problem.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

My first instinct would be to rehome the Golden, as it is much easier to place a cute Golden puppy than an adult GSD with issues.

However, I totally understand and sympathize about the lack of trust. Once a person is afraid of/mistrusts a dog, the dog will pick up on it, and the issues will be exacerbated.

However, I think the incident with the friends' Yorkie could be chalked up to mismanagement by the new owners--that Yorkie wasn't part of the GSD's family, and she was in an agitated state, and took out her frustration on an easy target. I rather doubt you'd have the same issue at home with your Yorkie, but I understand the worry and mistrust. Those are hard feelings to shake, and as long as the person has them (whether they want to or not), the dog will know.

So your decision is a tough one, certainly one I can sympathize with. Is there a GSD rescue in your area? If so, contact them and tell them about your GSD, see if they can help.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

savage22 said:


> I agree Selzer. Something else i just thought of, after nala attacked bella the first time, they were separated for many hours. then when they were back together they played and everything like normal. I remember seeing Nala take her chin and put it on Bela's back and push down trying to get her to forcefully sit/lay down. I had never seen her do this before. She has even tried to 'hump' Bela before all this happened too.
> 
> I think she is obsessed with Bela she interacts with her differently than all of our other dogs. Im starting to wonder if the yorkie attack is even relative at this point. There are a few consistent themes but alot of unknowns.



Those behaviors are dominance behaviors. Nala was trying to dominate Bela and let her know who the boss was.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

savage22 said:


> she does chase the red laser dot though,


ACK! Stop doing this. This is known to cause obsessive/compulsive behaviors in dogs, and this is exactly the type of dog that would be prone to those kinds of behaviors anyway. Play ball or tug-of-war instead, and without the other dogs around.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> Those behaviors are dominance behaviors. Nala was trying to dominate Bela and let her know who the boss was.


Whats funny is, Bela allows her to be dominant. She is very submissive to Nala.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Freestep said:


> ACK! Stop doing this. This is known to cause obsessive/compulsive behaviors in dogs, and this is exactly the type of dog that would be prone to those kinds of behaviors anyway. Play ball or tug-of-war instead, and without the other dogs around.


Wow, I had no idea. We havent used the laser thing in probably 8 months or more so no worries.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Freestep said:


> My first instinct would be to rehome the Golden, as it is much easier to place a cute Golden puppy than an adult GSD with issues.
> 
> However, I totally understand and sympathize about the lack of trust. Once a person is afraid of/mistrusts a dog, the dog will pick up on it, and the issues will be exacerbated.
> 
> ...


We would never leave them un-attended knowing one could be aggressive. When we brought Nala home, her and sebastian got into a few scuffles but all were typical, 'thats my toy' 'this is my food bowl.' stuff. Nothing between them since then. 
I look at it like this. My wife is worried about sending Bela somewhere because she is so timid she is afraid she would be easily abused. Nala needs alot more freedom than I think we can provide. If we found a good no dog home with a knowledgeable owner where Nala could live a great happy life then find. I would rather risk that knowing she killed tink and we were angry with her and didnt care what happened to her at that point. Id rather find her a home out of love than from anger.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Also, I noticed a small gouge/cut under one of nala's eyes. I do not recall seeing it before. Yesterday it was white-ish today it is very red, almost like it is bleeding but it isnt. She does not mind if I touch it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Enlist the assistance of a rescue.
If it was me (we rescue) I'd choose the Golden puppy over the GSD, to rescue, not that GSDs can't find good homes but when you add "no dogs" it's going to be nigh on to impossible.
What makes you think Nala won't be abused should she get into a scuffle with another dog?? 

Don't rehome her yourself, do it at the very least with the assistance of a rescue and whichever one you choose to send won't be abused or little chance of it with a good rescue who screens the homes.
Another thought is, the Golden pup is freaked out and shy because of the GSD suppressing her.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

savage22 said:


> I look at it like this. My wife is worried about sending Bela somewhere because she is so timid she is afraid she would be easily abused.


Timid dogs don't cause abuse. People cause abuse. Screen potential adopters carefully and make sure that they are not weirdos, or people who use heavy-handed training methods, or behave in intimidating ways. A timid puppy can be brought out of her shell with understanding and a gentle hand.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

We will see what we can find out for a shelter. I have a feeling once we explain no other dogs biting etc it will be a 'noone will want her...' kind of thing. We will see though.
Anything I should ask the vet today specifically?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Unfortunately, in rescue, yes people overall want "non issue" dogs. 

The best candidate for a good home would be the Pup.

BTW, where are you located?


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Unfortunately, in rescue, yes people overall want "non issue" dogs.
> 
> The best candidate for a good home would be the Pup.
> 
> BTW, where are you located?


I am in North eastern KY.
I wish there was someone who could watch Bela for a week so we could see what happens with nala and tink.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I read the whole thread, and came up with my own thoughts.

1) You have the GSD downstairs in the crate, while the other dogs run freely throughout the house. Is there a chance that the GSD feels his space is being restricted, and is looking to establish rank when free?

2) The GR is 11 months? Maybe she lost her puppy license, and again, the GSD might be establishing pack rank. The GR may pose a threat to the GSD, in some way.

Regarding the other home and Yorkie... Again, pack rank. as soon as the "leader" left, the GSD established himself.

The GSD may be very insecure.

_Please take my comments with a grain of salt. I do not have the experience and knowledge of the others around her. I posted these thoughts hoping others would offer their opinions about the possibility of this going on with this GSD._


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2009)

I would think the Golden should go if you had the GSD first. That's not fair to bring in a new dog and ditch the one that's already there ... for whatever reason. My GSD hates other dogs and would probably bite one, but she's never gone after a human. I do have to be careful out in public because some dogs won't phase her, but others, if they get too close or look at her the wrong way, she will lunge. Dog aggression does not mean she will attack a human. Other than dog issues, my GSD has no aggression problems and is a great dog. Good luck!


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> I read the whole thread, and came up with my own thoughts.
> 
> 1) You have the GSD downstairs in the crate, while the other dogs run freely throughout the house. Is there a chance that the GSD feels his space is being restricted, and is looking to establish rank when free?
> 
> ...


1. was wrong, the GSD is not crated, she has free reign of our downstairs. No dogs are currently in a crate. 
I agree with everything else you have said. fixed or not the GR is becoming mature.

Also, prior to the GSD vs GR, the GR was crated every night. The one night we did not crate her is when this started. maybe that makes a difference I dunno.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

savage22 said:


> 1. was wrong, the GSD is not crated, she has free reign of our downstairs. No dogs are currently in a crate.
> I agree with everything else you have said. fixed or not the GR is becoming mature.
> 
> Also, prior to the GSD vs GR, the GR was crated every night. *The one night we did not crate her is when this started. maybe that makes a difference I dunno.*


*
*


Whoa!! This is very important. (to me anyway)

So here's this GR roaming the house (at night) for the first time. 
Is there a chance the GSD did what he did naturally? That is, protect his home?
Maybe he was surprised / startled at the sight of the GR, and reacted.

Suddenly, the GR invades the GSD space at night.

I'd like to hear more from some of the others, about how this may have played a role.
IMO, I think it played a major role.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh yeah. The GR puppy was roaming and may have even started the fight.

That'll blow your wife's mind I'm sure.

It may have been something simple like the pup guarding a toy from the GSD.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> Do you know what exactly happened with the yorkie? It sounds like what the GSD was doing at your house is same sex/dominance behaviors. So the fact she attacked the make yorkie is odd but GSDs could also easily hurt a dog that small without meaning to. I have had Dharma play with small dogs and I have to call her off because she is simply too rough for them.


We have no idea what happened aside from they walked out of the house with the nala and their yorkie lose and came in to what i presume to be a mess. the dog is still at the ER vet with possible lung puncture wounds and possibly broken ribs.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Whoa!! This is very important. (to me anyway)
> ...


Well basically our lab and the GSD are free upstairs where we sleep. the GR is crated because she is a puppy and likes to eat the floor. :crazy:
Nala (gsd) never plays with toys really and no toy was in sight. the GSD is not protective of toys at all, she doesnt really play with them, the GR loves kongs though.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

savage22 said:


> Well basically our lab and the GSD are free upstairs where we sleep. the GR is crated because she is a puppy and likes to eat the floor. :crazy:
> Nala (gsd) never plays with toys really and no toy was in sight. the GSD is not protective of toys at all, she doesnt really play with them, the GR loves kongs though.


Nala doesn't have to like toys to be the victim of a resource guarder.
You just said you stopped crating Bella, and that was when problems started. Bella could've easily guarded one of her kongs (all you have to do is walk past a Resource Guarder, don't even need to touch or take anything). Fights could start one place and end in another.

Why don't you.. start crating Bella again? ..?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Putting my 18 month GSD Kira in your GSD's place.....

I've posted many threads about Kira's reaction if someone were to surprise her in my home. 
For instance... Kira could be laying quietly on her mat, and one of my daughters friends would quietly appear in the foyer. Her immediate response would be reactive She would puff up and charge. When she sensed no threat, she would stop. 
I'm imagining your GSD was startled by the sudden appearance of your GR during the night. At that point, something prompted an attack, and changed the dynamics between those two dogs. 

Going back to what others also said, the GR may also have changed the dynamics just by being there. 

You have your hands full with all those dogs.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Okay back from the vet. Getting bloodwork done and all that. 
Vet doesnt see anything out the ordinary with Nala. they did say the mark on nala's eye was a bite/tooth mark. 
There was no pain in the joints, missing teeth or anything that seemed to tip off towards a pain issue. Only thing they said was Nala was hesitant to let her pull on a shoulder but it didnt seem hurt Nala. 
Nala showed ZERO signs of aggression towards any of the lady's at the vet's office. they could do whatever they wanted and she did very well. 
They asked about when she attacks Bela is it at the throat or what? Its not its on the rump/hind quarters usually. That seems like a good sign in a weird way. 
So it boils down this, if she has a thyroid problem, will try and medicate it.
If nothing crazy with thyroid she needs a professional trainer which I surely do not have the money for.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> Nala doesn't have to like toys to be the victim of a resource guarder.
> You just said you stopped crating Bella, and that was when problems started. Bella could've easily guarded one of her kongs (all you have to do is walk past a Resource Guarder, don't even need to touch or take anything). Fights could start one place and end in another.
> 
> Why don't you.. start crating Bella again? ..?


We only crated bella at night so she wouldnt go all 'puppy destruction' while we were asleep. We didnt crate her every night but semi-routine. My wife got up in the middle of the night and let the dogs out to potty and just didnt re-crate her.
Bela is kind of kong-protective but I dont think a kong was present that night. It definitely wasnt during the next attack. 
Bottom line we cant keep one dog crated for the rest of their lives we have to figure out a final solution to all this.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> Putting my 18 month GSD Kira in your GSD's place.....
> 
> I've posted many threads about Kira's reaction if someone were to surprise her in my home.
> For instance... Kira could be laying quietly on her mat, and one of my daughters friends would quietly appear in the foyer. Her immediate response would be reactive She would puff up and charge. When she sensed no threat, she would stop.
> ...


Once my daughter was in the kitchen eating dinner. Nala was under the table laying down. I walked out of the room and I had a feeling either my daughter was feeding her or not eating or something. So i snuck into the living room and peeked into the kitchen from the shadows. My daughter did not see me but Nala sure did, and she came out from that kitchen table ready to get what she thought was an intruder. I stepped out from the dark living room and she saw it was me and immediately changed to 'oh I know you! pet me!?' 
she has the ability to turn her aggressiveness on or off.
I agree, my hands are full and I have been slowly pushing for less dogs at our house. I am outnumbered in more ways than one!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

savage22 said:


> Once my daughter was in the kitchen eating dinner. Nala was under the table laying down. I walked out of the room and I had a feeling either my daughter was feeding her or not eating or something. So i snuck into the living room and peeked into the kitchen from the shadows. My daughter did not see me but Nala sure did, and she came out from that kitchen table ready to get what she thought was an intruder. I stepped out from the dark living room and she saw it was me and immediately changed to 'oh I know you! pet me!?'
> she has the ability to turn her aggressiveness on or off.
> I agree, my hands are full and I have been slowly pushing for less dogs at our house. I am outnumbered in more ways than one!


I can't offer advice, but your dog's reaction to you, very well could have been the same response to your GR in the middle of the night. Now your GSD smells blood.

I'm not going to comment on turning off aggressiveness or on. That'll be addressed by others. I will say that that's not good.

Freestep, and I think Selzer mentioned getting rid of the GR. Based on what you describe, it doesn't seem like your GSD has an issue. I do believe that your GSD has an issue with the GR.
As far as the Yorkie, well.. that could happen t any dog in that situation. I would NEVER leave a new GSD alone in that situation. The Yorkie could have gotten aggressive towards your GSD, and the GSD responded.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> I can't offer advice, but your dog's reaction to you, very well could have been the same response to your GR in the middle of the night. Now your GSD smells blood.
> 
> I'm not going to comment on turning off aggressiveness or on. That'll be addressed by others. I will say that that's not good.
> 
> ...


you say that what is not good? My wife is not opposed to finding GR a new home, but she first has to be completely sure she wont attack our yorkie, how can we establish that? My wife already has trust issues in general and I dont know how to re-work this situation.
I think she has the issue with the GR as well. GR is getting mature and Nala isnt having anyone getting in on her 'piece of the pie' right now. I dunno what to do but I think one or both need to go.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really think you are dealing with Same Sex aggression. I think any dog that was in a strange place and thrown together with a strange dog might have a less than positive experience. Why does your dog have bite marks? Maybe the Yorkie attacked her. Maybe she retaliated, and I think it is pretty interesting that the Yorkie is still alive. All a GSD needs to do to kill a tiny dog like that is a bite and a quick shake. 

But there is no one on the internet or off that can guaranty the safety of your Yorkie. It's just not possible. Your old dog might get a tumor and suddenly attack the little dog. It can happen. The GR pup might decide the Yorkie is no fun anymore and decide to squash him. If you want to be 100% certain there will never be a problem with the tiny dog, then you need to get rid of all three dogs. 

It sounds like the GSD is more suspect because it has a history now. That will make a big difference to people who did not know this dog when it was an endearing puppy. But any of your dogs put into that situation might have reacted as bad if not worse. They have just not been tested.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

selzer said:


> I really think you are dealing with Same Sex aggression. I think any dog that was in a strange place and thrown together with a strange dog might have a less than positive experience. Why does your dog have bite marks? Maybe the Yorkie attacked her. Maybe she retaliated, and I think it is pretty interesting that the Yorkie is still alive. All a GSD needs to do to kill a tiny dog like that is a bite and a quick shake.
> 
> But there is no one on the internet or off that can guaranty the safety of your Yorkie. It's just not possible. Your old dog might get a tumor and suddenly attack the little dog. It can happen. The GR pup might decide the Yorkie is no fun anymore and decide to squash him. If you want to be 100% certain there will never be a problem with the tiny dog, then you need to get rid of all three dogs.
> 
> It sounds like the GSD is more suspect because it has a history now. That will make a big difference to people who did not know this dog when it was an endearing puppy. But any of your dogs put into that situation might have reacted as bad if not worse. They have just not been tested.


I agree completely. they still arent sure if the yorkie will live, they suspect it will though. I wouldnt have given Nala to them if I thought that would ever be a possibility. such a pain this year has been.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If they had introduced the dogs properly, and then let the new dog settle in for a period, supervising completely when they were together, this may have never happened. I do not fault you on this. Your dog DID get along with both of your males, and one was a very small dog. 

And, really SSA -- I don't think the blame is on you on that either. Some bitches, do not get along with some other bitches. Usually SSA does not translate to dog outside of the pack. 

For instance, Ninja -- the idiot bitch of mine who crashed open the crate and jumped Jenna and got her clock cleaned. Well she needed to go to the vet about a month prior to this altercation. She had a hematoma on her ear and they had to do surgery on it and, then we went back and the gals pulled a drain out of the ear. And then we went back again and the boy pulled the stitches out -- no sedation (save for the surgery itseslf), no muzzles, no aggression. I was so pleased with her after the last visit that we stopped at the park. 

I saw a car there, so I went in the woods with her on lead. Coming back across the soccer field, there was a Yorkie-mix in the field with his person up under the pavilion. I am thinking long line, or flexi-lead, and kept on. As we got closer to the dog, it was barking and coming, and it was apparent that there was no lead. OK. I told Ninja, LEAVE IT, and then HEEL, and heel she did, while this thing circled barking and lunging. She totally ignored it, while I was telling her owner to get it under control. Finally I got to my car, and got it unlocked while this monster was still trying to eat us. And I got Ninja in the car. 

The dog NEVER aggressed toward the aggressive dog. Why? Because it isn't in her pack and in her opinion is no threat at all to her. Maybe my singular Leave It, and Heel had the impression, but that would really be a shocker. Ninja fights with bitches in her pack, usually those ranking high enough to interest her. She hates Heidi. Usually she is ok with Jenna, until the day she wasn't. But it does not even translate to outside (of the pack) dogs. 

So it would really be a shame for this dog to lose its life because of a couple of moves and changes that might not have needed to happen.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

selzer said:


> If they had introduced the dogs properly, and then let the new dog settle in for a period, supervising completely when they were together, this may have never happened. I do not fault you on this. Your dog DID get along with both of your males, and one was a very small dog.
> 
> And, really SSA -- I don't think the blame is on you on that either. Some bitches, do not get along with some other bitches. Usually SSA does not translate to dog outside of the pack.
> 
> ...


I agree. I would love to work with Nala more on training such as yours displayed I just have no idea where to start. Nala only cares for one specific treat. anything else she spits out or doesnt bother.  
Tink always instigates, when we let a dog in from being outside he immediately runs up and barks/nips at them. none of them mind at all.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

savage22 said:


> I agree. *I would love to work with Nala more on training such as yours displayed I just have no idea where to start.* Nala only cares for one specific treat. anything else she spits out or doesnt bother.
> Tink always instigates, when we let a dog in from being outside he immediately runs up and barks/nips at them. none of them mind at all.


Please don't take what I'm about the say, the wrong way.

The highlighted comment above, may be more indicative of the problem, than the dogs themselves.

I've had my GSD dog for about 15 months. I immediately joined this forum, and started to ask questions. I have made a TON of mistakes, and put myself and my dog in numerous bad situations. 
Needless to say, owning my dog has been a handful, and a tremendous learning experience.

In your case, I think the GR put you above your threshold. I think your little pack with the older Lab, Yorkie and GSD were fine. The GR probably has high energy, and as a puppy was accepted (regardless of same sex). A lot of older dogs don't have the patience for a high energy pup. 
However, the GR is now getting older, and as Selzer said, there may be a same sex issue going on.

I think you need to re-home the GR. It's still young, and wont be too hard to find a suitable home.
OTOH, the GSD also needs more attention, on a different level. I think you need to spend more time training basics, and establishing yourself as a leader. I sense that dog is beginning to "rule the roost".


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## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

Savage,

Sounds like you are in tough situation. You mentioned you can't afford "professional training". I have good news for you - you have a GSD, you don't need the professional.

Just (sort of) kidding, but it seems that your Nala is a typical GSD who worships the ground you walk on. She wants you to give her stuff to do. Even if you can't do long walks right now, I'm guessing you can give her 10 minutes of undivided attention a few times a day? Make her sit, lie down, stay, fetch....whatever, but get her doing stuff for you. Get her to focus - you want her to react with "Yes, Sir!" when you say her name. 

There are plenty of good books and online resources out there - clicker training/operant conditioning is popular and very easy to do with your dog. Heck, check out the training forums here, folks post videos and everything! Just takes time and repetition, and you have to keep up with it. It's worth it in the end.

Good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some dogs don't care about treats, and some don't care about toys. Well, if you really need a treat and nuked hot dog won't work, try bacon. But I had such a bitch who could care less for treats or toys. But I she would walk a tight rope for praise. I had to totally train her using nothing but praise. 

They are all different, you just need to find something that motivates her. I don't think a private trainer will help much for SSA, frankly. But I think taking your GSD to classes and working with her on a daily basis those things you are learning in classes, well after the classes are over, you might be in another place in your relationship, a better place. But don't stop there, sign up for another set of classes. It is a great idea to get her a good foundation. 

Here's the thing, a dog with training may be better at doing what you want, and looking to you when in situations where she is uncertain. But if you still need to rehome the dog, a dog that can sit and down, and heel, and has demonstrated that she can be worked around other dogs, and people might be a little easier to find a good home for. A good goal would be the Canine Good Citizen Test. 

A dog that is no longer a cute sweet baby puppy needs every thing possible in their favor to find a good home. Everyone expects an eight week old puppy to jump up, and to nip, and to have accidents in the home. A nine month old puppy that jumps up, can't sit or down, pulls you down the street, barks and lunges at other dogs or people, is going no where fast. 

Training, just a little training can make the difference in so many cases, as to whether a dog lands in a shelter, and then on the euth list, or if a dog gets a nice home. Part of the cost of dog ownership is training. No, not everyone can afford a behaviorist/professional trainer to work with just them, but everyone who owns a dog ought to be able to come up with 75 - 125 dollars in six or eight weeks to take the pup to school.

It is true that people can train their dogs themselves. Some of us go to classes for the distractions of other dogs and people who are working with them. Some go because they want to fine tune stuff, and a trainer can see stuff about our body language and dogs reactions to it, that we simply cannot see. And some of us need to start from Go, learning everything from the beginning. 

Find a good trainer in your area, and sign up for classes.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I would normally say 'last one in is first one out'... however... it doesn't sound like the GSD is having her needs met. As a disabled RN, I can tell you that I worked lots of overtime (either at the same job or with an agency) to get money for things. It doesn't cost that much to pay for a training class. A bored GSD is more likely to get itself into trouble. If I were in your shoes, I'd rehome the GR and get the shepherd into classes. No one can even say if the shepherd started any of this...so why is the blame landing on this dog? At least one of the fights caused an injury to the shepherd. Both homes left the shepherd unattended with another dog. I'm sure that the shepherd is stewing to some degree because she's now separated from the family and the pack. It sounds like the shepherd needs more time spent with her, not less. If your family isn't totally on board and devoted to providing what the shepherd needs, then I'd agree that finding a rescue either willing to take the dog in or willing to help you find a new home is the best solution. Maybe also find a new home for the GR and agree that 2 dogs is your limit. Packs can be thrown off by a new member. IMO, anyone thinking about adding to their pack needs to plan ahead of time what they will do if that new member disrupts things. It can happen with any breed of dog. Not sure exactly where you are, but there are lots of parks and hiking areas in KY that would be great to take a GSD to.


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## dawn8207 (Dec 28, 2012)

Hello, I am "the wife" in this situation . I love all of my dogs. Ideally, I don't want to rehome any of them to be honest. I wish we could find a solution where they could stay together. I have read everyone's advice and it's all great advice, but I do want to clarify a few things. The first attack that happened at 3:30am wasn't the first time that Bella (my GR) was left out of her cage. She had been out previously on many occasions with no issues and before she started tearing up the floor she was out all the time. Bella and Nala have been living together without problems since March of this year also, so Bella isn't exactly a "NEW" puppy in the house although she is coming into maturity and she has been with us the least amount of time. Now I do remember after separating the dogs on that night, I saw Bella's kong not too far from the site where the fight took place and I have noticed Bella growling at the other dogs over it since Nala has been separated from them. So maybe it was a fight over the Kong, not sure though. It's very possible. The second time Nala (GS) attacked Bella (GR) she deliberately waited for me to walk out of the kitchen to attack her, but there was food out during that time also. (They have always eaten together without issues though. Nala has never been protective of food in the past.) But let's say that Nala is getting aggressive with Bella because of food and toys, although this has never been an issue before. Is it possible to correct this behavior between the two of them without rehoming either? I have dealt with Males being aggressive over food before and separating them solved that but this seems different. 

Another thing is, I just really don't understand why Nala keeps attacking when Bella is submissive to her. Bella has never been aggressive toward her in the past. During the attacks Bella freezes and just cries. She doesn't even try to fight back. If Bella does growl at her, she has never done anything to back it up even with the other dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IMO, if this is just a case of resource guarding, then yes you could fix this. However, you need to get a good trainer involved! You don't need to go every week as money seems to be an issue but you do need to go. I typically go every 3 weeks (well...before Jax got hurt and had surgery). 

You do need to stop projecting human actions and feelings onto the dogs. It's highly unlikely that Nala "deliberately waited" for you to leave the room. It's more likely that you missed the signals she was sending out. In fact, you leaving the room may have been the trigger and it has nothing to do with food if, say, the GR was between the door and Nala. You also need to keep in mind that it takes a couple of weeks for the stress hormones to leave their bodies after a fight. so the second fight may have just been because of the stress hormones keeping Nala in high gear. We were having fights between our GSD and youngest Boxer constantly but after the GSD and I went to see family for a couple of weeks, something reset in the Boxers brain and we haven't had one since May.

But you need a trainer to come in and evaluate the dogs. This could be SSA, resource guarding or something else. If you want to keep Nala, you need a professional to eval what is going on between these dogs.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

The likely reason for the fighting now when it hasn't been an issue before is the age of the GR. She no longer gets a 'puppy pass' from the GSD. She may also be an instigator and you're missing the signals. Let me give you a 'for instance'. We have an older (fixed) female, and a now 2 year old (fixed) female pug. All was well until Grim (GSD) came home as an 11 week old pup. The older female ignored him or 'warned' him to stay away from her. The Pug considers him 'hers'. They've gotten into some nasty sounding 'scuffles' over him and some of his 'coveted' toys. Although my pug has always been a toy thief (the older dog doesn't care about toys at all), it's now an issue because the 'puppy pass' is gone. It has taken careful management of toys, space, and Grim to manage this. They get along like 2 peas in a pod, until they don't. They are best buddies minutes after a scuffle, too. It's an odd situation, but there it is. I believe that the main thing triggering the fights that weren't there for the first year is the pug is no longer a puppy in the older dogs' eyes. Her puppy pass is gone. 

Grim's coveted toys have to be put away when he's not playing with them, and the older dog is finally over her 'warning' Grim all the time...so the pug doesn't have to be in 'protective mode' over "her" puppy.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

The 'puppy pass' I think hits it on the head.
We finally have some sunshine out today so i am going to take nala up on our hill to play some. 
we got a basket muzzle in hopes we could bring them together and if a fight broke out there would be no damage and we could correct it. But it just totally stressed Nala out more (was rubbing that bite mark near her eye) and we didnt think stressing her would help much. 
I work with nala and she is a quick learning, I need a way to get her to 'instant focus' if that makes sense. She minds me well unless there is a distraction, like a cat or something. she knows sit, shake, lay down, if she is in the kitchen and I say 'out' and point all the dogs know to leave. If I am at the top of the stairs and Nala tries to come up I say "no" and point and she lays down. She learns fast I just dont know were to start on really driving things home I guess. Ill check around this site later today and see what I can learn. She loves praise so I think that will be best. She does well with routines and really seeks to please us. 
I think my wife is okay with finding Bella a new home as long as we can mend the trust issue and ensure Tink (our yorkie) would be safe. How can we start building that trust again?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Do not feed together. That's a trigger.
Feed separately IN CRATES. Give them plenty of crate time in between exercising. 

DO NOT Leave them alone together.
If you see the slightest indication - this will require you to be extremely vigilant and know dog body language - that one is going to attack, intervene before it starts with a "HEYYY!!! That's ENOUGH!!!" 

Do not leave toys out that can be guarded.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Do not feed together. That's a trigger.
> Feed separately IN CRATES. Give them plenty of crate time in between exercising.
> 
> DO NOT Leave them alone together.
> ...


Do you mean dont feed ANY of the dogs together or just Nala and Tink (yorkie) ?
We will have to pick up the toys then.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You can feed separately. With the existing tension things may go south.

BUT - how do you normally feed them?? Is there food always out?


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> You can feed separately. With the existing tension things may go south.
> 
> BUT - how do you normally feed them?? Is there food always out?


in the evening 4 bowls go down, sometimes Nala and sebastian wait till later at night to eat, Bella is usually a good eater. Nala usually takes food out of her bowl and gives it to tink. 
They have all always eaten in the kitchen together. Food isnt always available. Sebastian is the only one who has ever been food aggressive, but he never fights just tries to act really mean and hog the food. 
Nala acts like she could care less most of the time. Almost like she would rather eat ever other day or something.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Please refresh my memory. I am running on the idea that the GR is 9-10 months old? That screams SSA moreso than puppy pass. The puppy pass usually disappears at 4.5-5 months old. And then it is not a bloody scrimmage. it is usually a snarl and maybe something that sounds terrible but no blood whatsoever. The behavior of the puppy on the receiving end, might be what you described. 

Frankly, I think that so long as you have two bitches in your home, you are going to have a heightened/charged atmostphere. Some bitches, once there is blood, look for any opportunity to get to the other bitch. Some bitches can go several months, and then someone walks too close to the other, brushes them the wrong way and someone punishes, someone retaliates, and it is on. Sometimes when a dog is in attack mode, and are separated, they will redirect that aggression on the person separating, or on whatever walks by. Living with two females that do not get along is not for most pet owners. 

My vet has Jack Russels, and every so often he has to come in and get antibiotics, etc, when they get into it. Someone who has one of my boys, has two bitch littermates, and their dam; every so often they tussel, and every joins in. A tiny dog would not have a prayer in that scenario.

I know this is not what you want to hear. But if the bitch pup goes away, and you give your girl a few WEEKS to get normal again, you can probably have the same harmony you had in your home before this issue cropped up. If the bitch pup stays, it is probably just a matter of time, regardless to how many behaviorists, trainers, NILIF, etc. that you try. 

Every time you bring a bitch into a home with another bitch, there is a possibility that they will have to be totally separated down the line. Some breeds are worse for SSA. They say that dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights. Personally, I think you can generally get two dogs to live together. Some people will even give the advice to sit back and let them figure it out. Don't do that with bitches, because you might be burying one and having to put the other down.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

savage22 said:


> in the evening 4 bowls go down, sometimes Nala and sebastian wait till later at night to eat, Bella is usually a good eater. Nala usually takes food out of her bowl and gives it to tink.
> They have all always eaten in the kitchen together. Food isnt always available. Sebastian is the only one who has ever been food aggressive, but he never fights just tries to act really mean and hog the food.
> Nala acts like she could care less most of the time. Almost like she would rather eat ever other day or something.


Make sure you're there supervising though the meal. If someone starts eyeing someone else's food, stop it before it starts.
Pick up any food that's "left over",. do not leave them alone together in the room.

There's a ton of info here - Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Other Animals


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Bella is probably 11-12 months old now.
Full grown (not getting any bigger) but still very much puppy minded.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have a pack going on. Free-feeding a pack of dogs does set you up for some discussions between the dogs. Sometimes you will have an over-weight dog because he eats more than he should. And sometimes you have a dog that stops eating and it really isn't noticed very quick because others are picking up the slack. 

If you have a pack, then you really should put the food down, and pick it up in 5-15minutes. You can feed dogs together with separate bowls if there have been no problems, But for many of us with multiple dogs, it just makes more sense to feed everyone in their crates. High value treats go in the crates also. 

I think it is interesting that Bella, who likes the Kongs, is the youngster who had some of the trouble. You have one dog who is borderline resource guarding when it comes to her kong, Another who acts mean when others get to near his food, and a little one that barks at every one when he comes in. And then some SSA. That is a lot going on. I think that to have a pack work you really need to be a certain kind of leader, and your leadership and the leadership of the humans in this pack has to be improved so that some of these behaviors, which you seem pretty ok with go away.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Make sure you're there supervising though the meal. If someone starts eyeing someone else's food, stop it before it starts.
> Pick up any food that's "left over",. do not leave them alone together in the room.
> 
> There's a ton of info here - Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Other Animals


gotch!


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

selzer said:


> You have a pack going on. Free-feeding a pack of dogs does set you up for some discussions between the dogs. Sometimes you will have an over-weight dog because he eats more than he should. And sometimes you have a dog that stops eating and it really isn't noticed very quick because others are picking up the slack.
> 
> If you have a pack, then you really should put the food down, and pick it up in 5-15minutes. You can feed dogs together with separate bowls if there have been no problems, But for many of us with multiple dogs, it just makes more sense to feed everyone in their crates. High value treats go in the crates also.
> 
> I think it is interesting that Bella, who likes the Kongs, is the youngster who had some of the trouble. You have one dog who is borderline resource guarding when it comes to her kong, Another who acts mean when others get to near his food, and a little one that barks at every one when he comes in. And then some SSA. That is a lot going on. I think that to have a pack work you really need to be a certain kind of leader, and your leadership and the leadership of the humans in this pack has to be improved so that some of these behaviors, which you seem pretty ok with go away.


My house is a circus... :crazy:
I think there are some inconsistencies my wife and I could both work on.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I haven't read every post, but some things jumped out at me as being clear and easy places to start. Like these: 



msvette2u said:


> *Do not feed together.* That's a trigger.
> Feed separately IN CRATES. Give them plenty of crate time in between exercising.
> 
> *DO NOT Leave them alone together.*
> ...





dawn8207 said:


> The first attack that happened at 3:30am wasn't the first time that Bella (my GR) was left out of her cage. She had been out previously on many occasions with no issues and before she started tearing up the floor she was out all the time.


I only have two dogs, not four, and they are 4 years old and 7 years old, but they still sleep in crates at night even though they get along fabulously and would sleep through the night with no problem. You can't deal with _any_ issues if you're not there or you're asleep, so keep the dogs separated unless you're there actively supervising. Have at least some of them sleep in crates or another room, if not all of them. 

Actively supervise play time and don't leave toys laying around since you're already seeing a problem with toys and guarding. _Feed them separately. Never walk out of the room when food is around. _ If they can safely eat a meal together as long as one of you right there supervising, fine. Put the bowls down, let everyone eat, then pick the bowls up until the next meal. No free feeding, ever. 

In fact, personally I'd work with them (probably separately at first) on impulse control around food, so eventually you can have all of them in a sit or down while you put the bowls down, and then release everyone to eat, IF it's safe to have them eat in the same room. That's what I do with my dogs. I do close the door to the garage pen when I walk away so one is one each side of it, but not because they'll fight about food, it's because Halo will eat hers AND Keefer's, and he'll let her, lol!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really think that age-wise you are dealing with sexual maturity and not puppy license expiration. 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

savage22 said:


> I think there are some inconsistencies my wife and I could both work on.


:thumbup: That is a perfect place to start - decide between you what the new house rules are going to be, and then both of you are responsible for implementing them consistently. You need to be on the same page so the dogs always know what's expected of them.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thumbup: That is a perfect place to start - decide between you what the new house rules are going to be, and then both of you are responsible for implementing them consistently. You need to be on the same page so the dogs always know what's expected of them.



You definitely have a working pack. That pack needs leadership. Search NILIF- Nothing In Life Is Free and start implementing it with all of your dogs. Be consistent and fair. Start spending a few minutes a day working with each dog training. I would feed all of them in their crates for now. If for no other reason than it allows each dog to eat in peace. 

I agree with selzer and think the issues with Nala and Bella are SSA. I just don't know that you are going to be able to fix that. If you are determined to keep them, you may have to end up crating and rotating.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> I really think that age-wise you are dealing with sexual maturity and not puppy license expiration.
> 
> Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


I wasn't clear. When the puppy 'pass' stopped appeared to be the time when the SSA started. I do 100% believe it's SSA in this case. (Probably also in my house, too) When the other female views that female as being 'mature', the problems begin. Even if they weren't there before. I'm with Selzer, I don't think this is something that's going to be solved (ie, it doesn't happen again) by training or a behaviorist. I think it's going to take SUPER tight management, knowing how to read your dog and it STILL has a decent chance of happening again. Putting 2 bitches together is always going to be a chance at having this happen. We 'manage' because it's an atypical case and I don't know how long the old girl will be with us. No way I'd do this for many, many years!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

My dog Kira, always brings out the worst in other dogs. I never could figure why, until I caught her doing this little sneaky snarl with her upper lip. 

There was an incident where I was walking with Kira and we came across a GSD that she used to play with as a puppy. Both dogs were leashed, and myself and the owner were chatting. At one point, the other GSD walked over to Kira and licked her mouth. A split second later the other dog attacked Kira 

What could have gone wrong?
According to other owner, he saw Kira " flick her lip" 
Could Kira have instigated the incident? I believe she did. 

This could be what's going on with you GR. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## dawn8207 (Dec 28, 2012)

ok...the blood work all came back fine with Nala according to the vet. Nothing physical seems to be going on. We have been keeping the dogs all separate to let things calm down for a little while. Today I started to reintegrate Nala with the other dogs to see what she would do. She paid no attention to my Lab which is no surprise, he's the biggest and has been with us the longest, but now she is growling at my yorkie just like the GR. She didn't attack him but would have if I wasn't there to stop her. What is up with all of this?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I cannot stress this enough.....Get a Trainer


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Instead of being a bystander to all this, take an active role.

If you can't afford a trainer, implement Mind Games. Keep them separated.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

It is apparent there's too much stress and tension at this time. Crate/rotate (GSD is never out at the same time the other dogs are).

I forget if you utilize crates, but if not, now is the time to start. 

Pit Bull Rescue Central Although written for pit bulls, it can be used on any breed, and we've had issues here with non-pit bull dogs, any breed, really, can be aggressive to other dogs. 

If you start doing this and Mind Games (as in "the dog MINDS") then your dogs may start seeing you as a leader and stop challenging each other so much.

Taking leadership of all the dogs goes a long way in reducing stress and fights. We live in a multiple dog pack and don't see as many fights when someone is controlling the atmosphere.


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## dawn8207 (Dec 28, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Instead of being a bystander to all this, take an active role.
> 
> If you can't afford a trainer, implement Mind Games. Keep them separated.
> 
> ...


That is the problem. We can't afford a trainer. My husband just had open heart surgery not too long ago and he has been unable to work, so money is tight right now. We do have one large crate that we use in the house. I have been rotating the GSD in that and in the basement (which is fully heated, the same size as the upstairs of the house, and she has her own couch and toys down there. She seems to be a lot more calm when she is in the basement now versus being upstairs with the other dogs. 

I will check out Mind Games. We have to this stuff under control.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You don't have to go to a trainer every week. But seeing one once per month would be very beneficial and much cheaper than a vet bill from a hurt dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

With the risk of hiring a crap trainer so very high, some of these things can be done at home and can be implemented on a daily basis, they won't hurt the dog or situation (like a crap trainer would) and just may help :thumbup:


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## dawn8207 (Dec 28, 2012)

It's been a few days since we have posted any updates on the status of our GSD situation. We have been working with our vet and an animal behaviorist about our situation. The behaviorist is suggesting that we put our GSD on Prozac temporarily, so that we are able to work with the dogs together easier. The behaviorist says that the GR submission to the GSD is out of fear and that fear is making the GSD more aggressive or feeding her aggression. They are suggesting that we keep the GSD on the Prozac for about a week before putting the two dogs back together. Then they are suggesting that we leash both of the dogs and slowly put them back together, not allowing the GSD to be aggressive or the GR to be fearful of the GSD. They say that we need to walk them together (one person to each dog) with a close leash at first and then letting the leash out more and more until they can be around each other without issues. This seems like the best plan that we have been able to come up with so far, any thoughts? Suggestions?


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

same sex aggression with 2 females is common, with 2 females you are better off rehoming the puppy. prozac works with some dogs, not others... its a long time fix, not a short week fix....


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

No. Prozac takes a good 30 days to kick in as it's an SSRI, and you won't see any results in one week! 

Also - Prozac can make some dogs more aggressive.

Geesh. This is your vet suggesting this??

I'd do the other. Leash and separate at all times. Leash at ALL times. 
Take control of the situation instead of being a bystander.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Vet and Behaviorist saying PROZAC???? Sorry - that is a crock.....this is NOT an uncommon problem......drugs are a band aid and will not change the personality of the dogs....you either rehome one (and it is not fair for the GSD to have to go if she was there first IMO) or rotate forever and be diligent that there are no fights.....you are putting everyone - dogs and people - at risk trying to make them be friends.....

Won't happen.

Lee


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Agreed with the others. Prozac takes about 30 days to take effect. 

I will say, however, that I have had success in using supplements (Springtime Inc's Stress Free Complex) for example taking the edge off just enough that the dog is better able to focus and learn but is NOT drugged. This however was with a young fear aggressive (toward dogs and people) female and she was on the supplements for months while we worked on counter conditioning. She is since off them but is not cured but is better in the house. 

This is in no way advice directly on your situation as I have not the dogs interact and I do agree with others that same sex aggression would be very difficult to counter condition and will take LOTS of management and MONTHS and MONTHS of work. 



> Then they are suggesting that we leash both of the dogs and slowly put them back together, not allowing the GSD to be aggressive or the GR to be fearful of the GSD. They say that we need to walk them together (one person to each dog) with a close leash at first and then letting the leash out more and more until they can be around each other without issues. This seems like the best plan that we have been able to come up with so far, any thoughts? Suggestions?


How does the behaviorist suggest you react if the GSD is aggressive? What does not letting her be aggressive mean?

While walking them together (with plenty of distance) and just having them be near each other and calm (opposite sides of the room, leashed and distracted by a bone or doing obedience) is the correct way to go about counter conditioning, you need to have a very real understanding of body language so you can redirect stares and prevent challenges and reward the right state of mind. Also, again, keep in mind that this is several months of work before they will likely get to be close to each other and not something that will happen over night.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And how do you disallow the GR not to be fearful???

:hammer: You shall not cringe, you shall not cringe!!!

If you :dogsledding: the :dancingtree: out of them, every day, maybe they will be too tired to oke:each other. 

The problem is most of us will be :surrender: long before our uppy:uppy:uppy: are.


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## savage22 (Dec 25, 2012)

Had another 'attack' tonight. Everything seemed to be going okay.
We noticed Bela has been very 'afraid' of Nala lately. She wont come in the house if Nala is at the door etc. My wife noticed Bela crying under the kitchen table and wouldnt come out she said Nala acted like she had her trapped. This is again what happened, my daughter was eating dinner at the table, bela under it, nala/bela someone growled at the other and Nala got ahold of her leg. it wasnt terrible attack or anything we were able to split them up. 
Nala was shaking after we broke them up and just acted like she had an adrenaline dump. My wife would describe Nala's behavior as 'stalking.' 
We have been on top of any dominance stuff.
My daughter is only 6 so she isnt the greatest witness. but she says Bela trying to lick her fingers while she was eating just before the fight... Take that info with a grain of salt...


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

seriously, rehome the puppy- how much longer are you going to let this go on? contact a rescue to take the younger dog and find her a good home. do you want to wait until your older dog KILLS your younger dog? rehome the younger dog NOW ... its not dominance stuff- its called the older female doesnt like the younger female and you have same sex aggression... stop allowing your older dog to bully your younger dog too- that is cruel and unfair to your younger dog- you should not be allowing the older dog to bully the younger dog to the point the younger dog wont come in the house... you are setting both dogs up to fail and its not their fault.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yep. 
One of these days very soon you're going to have a bad disaster. 
People have given you 15 pages of advice, primarily, rehome the puppy. Before she's killed, maimed, one of you (or your kids) gets maimed, and before her head's so messed up she'll never be right


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## dawn8207 (Dec 28, 2012)

We have not rehomed any dog because we have been advised by our vet and a behaviorist not to. We are asking for other suggestions, please don't be rude...The behaviorist states that it isn't cut and dry female aggression based on the vet's findings and what we have told him. I mean if you have children who are having fights, you don't just find one of them another home. I am sorry, but all of these dogs are like my children and I want to get to the bottom of this. I understand that rehoming is an option, but it should be a last resort.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

No one has been rude. We've all offered you the best advice there is given the information that we have. Your dogs are not children as much as you feel like they are. Your dogs deserve not to live in fear of an attack or at a high level of anxiety all the time. 

I recommend getting a second opinion from another behaviorist. Just because one calls themself a trainer/behaviorist doesn't mean they are worth the paper their business card is written on. If you believe your vet and behaviorist are right, then listen to them and follow their instructions. 

There is* nothing* that strangers on the internet can add that will magically make it better when we are not able to witness the behavior.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

dawn8207 said:


> We have not rehomed any dog because we have been advised by our vet and a behaviorist not to. We are asking for other suggestions, please don't be rude...The behaviorist states that it isn't cut and dry female aggression based on the vet's findings and what we have told him. I mean if you have children who are having fights, you don't just find one of them another home. I am sorry, but all of these dogs are like my children and I want to get to the bottom of this. I understand that rehoming is an option, but it should be a last resort.


I see no rudeness, only members who are taking time out of their busy lives to offer you help and advice. 
I guess you don't like the advice you've been given here, but asking again and again will only get you the same replies. 
It is your choice to continue with this, but if you keep updating with reports of fights, I'm afraid the advice you get here will be exactly the same.

PS-- as long as you think of them as children and equate them with kids instead of recognizing they are animals, ones that can hurt each other or your child-- then you won't be able to fix your problem.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Dawn. I'm sorry if you feel we're "rude" but your last post specifically asked for suggestions. 

And we gave them, then. The below post is full of...not sure how to say it..."bad advice" is the best I can do.
The only bit of advice from this that's usable is "walk them daily".

You can't _make_ a dog not be fearful. You can't _make_ a dog be less aggressive to another dog. 
Dogs are what they are - they are dogs. They are not kids and they don't have moral codes like "don't hurt your sister". 

And anti-depressants can make aggression worse, and at best, take 30 days to work, which leads me to suspect your trainer/behaviorist doesn't know what she/he is talking about with regards to Prozac. 

In light of all the above and everything else posted, the best advice and "suggestions" we all seem to have is "rehome one of the dogs" and we also seemed to agree overall that the most rehomable one is the Golden puppy.



> It's been a few days since we have posted any updates on the status of our GSD situation. We have been working with our vet and an animal behaviorist about our situation. The behaviorist is suggesting that we put our GSD on Prozac temporarily, so that we are able to work with the dogs together easier. The behaviorist says that the GR submission to the GSD is out of fear and that fear is making the GSD more aggressive or feeding her aggression. They are suggesting that we keep the GSD on the Prozac for about a week before putting the two dogs back together. Then they are suggesting that we leash both of the dogs and slowly put them back together, not allowing the GSD to be aggressive or the GR to be fearful of the GSD. They say that we need to walk them together (one person to each dog) with a close leash at first and then letting the leash out more and more until they can be around each other without issues. This seems like the best plan that we have been able to come up with so far, any thoughts? *Suggestions?*


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

savage22 said:


> Had another 'attack' tonight. Everything seemed to be going okay.
> We noticed Bela has been very 'afraid' of Nala lately. She wont come in the house if Nala is at the door etc. My wife noticed Bela crying under the kitchen table and wouldnt come out she said Nala acted like she had her trapped. This is again what happened, my daughter was eating dinner at the table, bela under it, nala/bela someone growled at the other and Nala got ahold of her leg. it wasnt terrible attack or anything we were able to split them up.
> Nala was shaking after we broke them up and just acted like she had an adrenaline dump. My wife would describe Nala's behavior as 'stalking.'
> We have been on top of any dominance stuff.
> My daughter is only 6 so she isnt the greatest witness. but she says Bela trying to lick her fingers while she was eating just before the fight... Take that info with a grain of salt...


Why are you allowing these dogs to be in the same room together? We are going through a very similar situation. We have the dogs completely separated. With crates and baby gates, we prevent them from ever coming in contact with one another. We are working with a trainer who comes to our home. Unless we are 100 percent sure the dogs can safely be together, they will remain separated. You are putting your 6 year old's safety at risk. Have you considered what might happen if your daughter gets caught between two fighting dogs?


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

if you love your dogs like you love your children and treat them as such, then do the right thing and rehome the golden puppy... true love is doing what is RIGHT for the dog- no matter what.... if you own a dog you have a responsibility to keep the dog SAFE.... just like you have a responsibility to keep your child safe..... you will be shocked when the older dog kills the younger dog, and you will blame the older dog..... it isnt the dogs fault, either of them... you have a responsibility to keep the dogs separate until you rehome the puppy. and yes, get another opinion from another vet and behaviorist.. what the ones you have now are tellling you is going to get the golden pup killed.... just contact golden retriever rescue and give up that puppy before you ruin its temperment with the older dog bullying it or getting it killed.... and until you do KEEP BOTH DOGS SEPARATE BEHIND GATES and dont let them interact... period... keep them separate 24/7....


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I am also thinking that the GSD is highly stressed if she is being kept alone in the basement while the others are allowed to be upstairs with the pack. 

And on the occasions she does get to be upstairs, she wants to get rid of the Golden so she can rejoin her family. 

How do you think it is working for you and the dogs, keeping them all? Are you happy with the atmosphere and the situation?


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## dawn8207 (Dec 28, 2012)

Zookeep said:


> Why are you allowing these dogs to be in the same room together? We are going through a very similar situation. We have the dogs completely separated. With crates and baby gates, we prevent them from ever coming in contact with one another. We are working with a trainer who comes to our home. Unless we are 100 percent sure the dogs can safely be together, they will remain separated. You are putting your 6 year old's safety at risk. Have you considered what might happen if your daughter gets caught between two fighting dogs?


These dogs have been in the same room together for the last 15 days with no issues. We have been crate training, separating them when needed, using leashes, and working on various commands with them. We have always been present when these dogs are in the same room together, especially with a 6 year old. They weren't left "alone". I was in the room, but I didn't see what happened in "dog language" between the two, but our 6 year old saw who started what, but she was in no way in any danger. We have been working with these two dogs for approximately 1 month and haven't had any problems until today. Yes, we have taken into consideration our child's safety and if I thought that she was at any risk of getting hurt, then things would be a lot different. I have been keeping the GS by my side while in the house with the other dogs. She has been fine until today.


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## dawn8207 (Dec 28, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I am also thinking that the GSD is highly stressed if she is being kept alone in the basement while the others are allowed to be upstairs with the pack.
> 
> And on the occasions she does get to be upstairs, she wants to get rid of the Golden so she can rejoin her family.
> 
> How do you think it is working for you and the dogs, keeping them all? Are you happy with the atmosphere and the situation?


The GS doesn't always stay in the basement. She is upstairs with us too and has been for the last 15 days all the time except for dinner time, which we did trying to keep aggressive behavior in check. Before working with the vet and behaviorist, we were keeping the GR in her crate while the GS was upstairs and would rotate them out of the crate during the day every couple of hours. Then at dinner and bedtime the GS would go downstairs. They have all done very well lately until tonight. I am not sure what happened. Like my husband said, it wasn't a bad fight or anything, but it was enough to get your heart rate up a little. I do hate it that we have to keep them all separate, but around here where we live shelters and rescues are not the best answer either. People around here have told me to shoot my GS and be done with it...that's not an option..


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

No one here has said to shoot any dog. Each and every time you have a dog fight, the shepherd is becoming more and more comfortable with attacking the other female. In reality, you're allowing her to become more aggressive and more unstable because of the situation. At the same time, your poor pup on the receiving end is living in terror each and every day. Her stress must just be incredibly high. I'm sorry, but this is cruel. I'd be surprised if this pup doesn't end up dog aggressive. Can you see that your "love" for your dogs is harming them?? This is a situation that is creating two problem dogs... possibly for the rest of their lives. It's not fair to them. If you really want to do what's best, then you have GOT to re-home one of the two dogs. Also, your child IS in danger, whether you choose to see it or not. One of these days, your females are going to get into a fight and your child is going to get caught in the middle of it. I am seriously afraid for your child. I'm also afraid for your female pup. Sooner or later, that pup is going to end up needing serious medical attention or be killed. 

I KNOW that you think it's best to keep all your dogs. I also know you believe that your child won't be hurt. You're not looking at this objectively. You have several people here all agreeing that your pup is in danger and is living in constant fear. This isn't healthy. It isn't a good life for this pup. I don't see it getting any better. You cannot keep her safe, because the attacks are still happening. You've got to get to a point (before she's seriously injured) of realizing that letting her go is the best thing you could ever do for her. THEN you've got to get control of your shepherd. Your GS is going to continue the attacks as long as the pup is in your home. I'd expect them to get worse with age. PLEASE realize that when dogs fight like this, they aren't acting normally. If a person happens to be in the way, they WILL get bit!! Your child is in danger with these two being in your home together. Our children have to be protected... even if it's from dogs we love. Your child is small. The fights are likely traumatizing to the child, also. This child has no way to protect itself from fighting dogs. You have three beings that NEED a change in your home for their own safety and happiness. Not acting right away to change the situation is beyond my understanding. Sometimes we have to do things we don't really want to do. We have to not be selfish and think about the mental and physical well being of others and acknowledge when things are beyond our capabilities. Please, please, please re-home one of those females!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have broken up a number of bitch fights. I also babysit a couple of six year old girls (not generally at my house). I would NEVER want those girls to witness a bitch fight. Right now you have a girl who is maturing and is not a good candidate for living with other females. To this point, the fights have not been that serious. This can escalate, and if it does there is a danger to your child. 

No, dog aggression does not mean human aggression. But when dogs are fighting, people often get bitten, usually trying to break them apart. Sometimes, a dog will bite anything else if it is pulled away from the object of its hatred. They call this misdirected aggression. 

I agree that the stress level is not healthy for the dogs or the people involved. It would be much better to find a good home for one of the girls, and let your household enjoy what a dog brings to a home, a lowering of blood pressure, and a great loving companion to all the people. Right now your daughter is learning that dogs are scary. That alone would be reason enough for me to rehome one.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

in my opinion human aggression and dog aggression can go hand in hand all depending on the dog, genetics, etc. not always but it does happen. especially if the dog hasn't been socialized properly. i am not sure if this is same sex aggression or there is more going on. it could be a dominant thing, or just lack of direction and not being corrected for bad behviors. hard to say without seeing it. but, if the OP's don't feel they have the time to get the dog evaluated and do some training and taking alot of time to observe and correct it might be better to rehome in the right place. it would take a home that someone would be qualified to work with this dog etc. there are alot of dogs in this home and with multiple dogs it takes even more work to make sure things run smoothly. tough decision for sure.........


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