# Orijen steps it up another notch with a new formula !!



## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

This is by "far" the best dog food kibble made today(NEW FORMULA). They really have taken dog food to a whole different league than everyone else. The first "5" ingredients are all meat and their is no other dog food on the market that comes close. The meat level is 80%,,, I would guess a good dog food would have 40%. The Glucosamine level is 3+ times that of any other dog food.


Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.

* DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen.

No dry dog food on earth can match the quality, quantity and freshness of ORIJEN’s fresh regional poultry, fish and meat ingredients.

Glucosamine (min.) 1400 mg/kg
Chondroitin (min.) 1000 mg/kg

Orijen Pet Foods: Products


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Since it offers the glucosamine & chondroitin I assume it is for older dogs or no.

What is the price difference from regular Orijen


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

This is the new regular adult. The price is the same,,, so far.!.!? The adult regular and the basic puppy are the only 2 new ones out at the pet store I buy from. But they are all getting redone. I bought my last bag of large breed puppy, which is the same price, 56 bucks for the 29 lb bag. I know this pet store does a very high volume of Acana and Orijen.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Lucky you,,, $56.00 is a great price.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Yeah..GREAT PRICE!...around here it is between $75-$85


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> This is by "far" the best dog food kibble made today(NEW FORMULA). They really have taken dog food to a whole different league than everyone else. The first "5" ingredients are all meat and their is no other dog food on the market that comes close. The meat level is 80%,,, I would guess a good dog food would have 40%. The Glucosamine level is 3+ times that of any other dog food.
> 
> 
> Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.
> ...



I hate to burst your bubble but the "fresh" meat is this food represents very little, almost nothing actually, in terms of protein. Even if the fresh meat was 30% of the weight of the food the maximum amount of protein from that is less than 5% due to water content. The three dry meat meals are pretty much all the protein. The fresh meats just add dramatically to the cost. I have never understood why anyone would pay for fresh protein only to have it cooked and dried in processing. 

I doubt also that any of the three protein meals are produced in Canada. It is totally irrelevant that the first 5 ingredients are meat based. You could have just one meat ingredient and still have the same if not more protein.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

sable123, I am well aware of the prosessing of dog food since I review dog foods for a living. I won't go any further, since I am on shaky grounds on this forum. And I well say it again *THIS IS BY ""FAR"" THE BEST DOG FOOD MADE TODAY AND NO ONE COMES CLOSE.* So sable who do you work for?? My guess is abady!!!

I really think we get it so cheap here is because of the volume and the shipping cost are most likely less than most places.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

sable123 said:


> I hate to burst your bubble but the "fresh" meat is this food represents very little, almost nothing actually, in terms of protein. Even if the fresh meat was 30% of the weight of the food the maximum amount of protein from that is less than 5% due to water content. The three dry meat meals are pretty much all the protein. The fresh meats just add dramatically to the cost. I have never understood why anyone would pay for fresh protein only to have it cooked and dried in processing.
> 
> .


i have to agree with you here. if the fresh meat ended up as the true first ingredient after processing, the amount they started out with would have to be so much that the food would be $140+/bag.

now, the new adult formula presumably starts out with more fresh meat than the old one. the result was a small drop in protein %, but id expect a liitle more of that protein % now comes from the fresh meat than before.....but certainly the majority of the protein comes from the named meals.

nevertheless, i still rate orijen as one of the top 3 foods im willing to feed. (believe it or not, the annamaet GF would be one of them if it was more available in the midwest)

never mind 3toestony. his modus operandi is to shout people down when he is faced with the prospect of having to reason with them.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I was told today that the "new" formula would have a price increase, from $59 to $65 (LBP).


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I like meat meals.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Orijen Red Meat is going from $70 to $82 with the switch to 80/20. Needless to say, as much as my dogs love Orijen, we'll be finding a cheaper brand when the price officially increases.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I actually kind of agree with Sable123 on this one and i'm not too happy about this new formula. Though the total amount of meat has gone up from 70% to 80% the protein percentage dropped from 40% to 38%. 

This actually represents a downgrade to me. More fresh meat, but less meat meal. The fresh meat gets cooked anyways, so really it decreases the amount of meat in the food which is not a good thing. This is most likely why the protein percentage dropped.

I do agree with the OP about Orijen being the best dog food on the market though.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If they had increase meat meal then maybe it would be more impressive. Someone is going to have to convince me about the improvement also. 

I like to feed fresh meat as that.. fresh meat.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Are the changing the LBP formula too?


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

I too am not impressed with the new formula. And the price here for the 6 fish will be close to 80.00/bag I believe. I certainly don't mind paying more for a better product but I'm not so sure that it is. Dissapointing that it's been changed, as Jax does well on it. We haven't yet started on the new version...will see how that goes.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I actually kind of agree with Sable123 on this one and i'm not too happy about this new formula. Though the total amount of meat has gone up from 70% to 80% the protein percentage dropped from 40% to 38%.
> 
> This actually represents a downgrade to me. More fresh meat, but less meat meal. The fresh meat gets cooked anyways, so really it decreases the amount of meat in the food which is not a good thing. This is most likely why the protein percentage dropped.
> 
> I do agree with the OP about Orijen being the best dog food on the market though.


The total amount of Meat at 80% is a marketing ploy. It is simply not true. 

Counted in that is water.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I am phasing in our first bag of it. So we shall see. The price was cheaper than the 6 fish or Regional Red.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

It's hardly the "best" food out there.

The best food is the food that works best for individual dogs. Can't even begin to tell you how many dogs I've heard of not doing well on orijen.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Rerun said:


> It's hardly the "best" food out there.
> 
> The best food is the food that works best for individual dogs. Can't even begin to tell you how many dogs I've heard of not doing well on orijen.


It is by far the "*best*" dog food out there, *PERIOD*. And I do not work for them. You can bet it is NOT going to work for all dogs. Many dogs can not do Fish, chicken, Salmon etc. IT IS STILL THE BEST TODAY.
The red is NOT going to 80%, it is going to 75%,,, because those ingredients are much harder to source.
I really don't mean to be rude, but you people really should get your facts straight. The meat percent is in fact 80percent,, PLEASE DO SOME research about what the FDA allows. It is ridiculous some people are making such S posts with out proving their posts or leaving any links.
I do this for a living and I did not put this up, without first doing a little home work...
And last if it ""was"" 80percent before processing give me one kibble who is even close????? abady, lolololololol!!!!!


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

I would also like to point out that Sable, does not, nor will they ever leave pictures of their dogs . Please note my dogs nice coat!! It's called PROOF!!!!!


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I was told by the lady at the feed store, who was looking at Orijen paperwork, that yes the LBP is also changing.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> It is by far the "*best*" dog food out there, *PERIOD*. And I do not work for them. You can bet it is NOT going to work for all dogs. Many dogs can not do Fish, chicken, Salmon etc. IT IS STILL THE BEST TODAY.
> The red is NOT going to 80%, it is going to 75%,,, because those ingredients are much harder to source.
> I really don't mean to be rude, but you people really should get your facts straight. The meat percent is in fact 80percent,, PLEASE DO SOME research about what the FDA allows. It is ridiculous some people are making such S posts with out proving their posts or leaving any links.
> I do this for a living and I did not put this up, without first doing a little home work...
> And last if it ""was"" 80percent before processing give me one kibble who is even close????? abady, lolololololol!!!!!


Abady does in fact have more meat protein than Orijen, and it did 30 years ago as well. The FDA allows pet food company's to list the ingredients before processing so the 80% of weight inlcludes water. Also, Orijen lies because most of the important ingredients come from the US not Canada but you should know this since you do this for a living.

Also, Orijen's return rates are going up so as the other poster stated many dogs and consumers are finding the results are not what they are cracked up to be.

Do you know what Champion did just a few years back?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

The FDA doesn't regulate dog food in the way human food is regulated. It doesn't even need pre-approval before being sold on the marketplace as long as the ingredients listed are already approved. However, I agree Orijen is great food. It's high in protein, moderate in carbs, and uses better fillers in lieu of corn, wheat, and soy. It doesn't work for every dog and therefore is not going to be the best food choice for many pet owners.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I would also like to point out that Sable, does not, nor will they ever leave pictures of their dogs . Please note my dogs nice coat!! It's called PROOF!!!!!


Your dog looks like every other dog on this site. I hardly see what the fuss is about?


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Rerun said:


> Your dog looks like every other dog on this site. I hardly see what the fuss is about?


 NO WAY,I don't think so, and if you look close you well notice a huge difference between my dog and others. I guess if you look with your eyes closed you won't notice much of a difference.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Abady does in fact have more meat protein than Orijen, and it did 30 years ago as well. The FDA allows pet food company's to list the ingredients before processing so the 80% of weight inlcludes water. Also, Orijen lies because most of the important ingredients come from the US not Canada but you should know this since you do this for a living.
> 
> Also, Orijen's return rates are going up so as the other poster stated many dogs and consumers are finding the results are not what they are cracked up to be.
> 
> ...



LOL, LOL how did I know you work for abady. WHICH IS ONE OF THE WORST DOG FOODS MADE TODAY!!! LOL. LOL. I guess if you think LARD is meat.
And I just love this statement made by a low grade dog food and obviously they know nothing about it, what a slmbag company to make such a false statement!!

Other than the fact that hip dysplasia can be prevented through the judicious feeding of Abady


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

It's funny that anyone would try to make a case for any dog food that contains Chicken by-product meal, as abady does!! Then try and bad mouth Orijen !! You two are quite a pair.

AAFCO: Consists of the dry, ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines -- exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices. 
Chicken byproducts are much less expensive and less digestible than the chicken muscle meat.The ingredients of each batch can vary drastically in ingredients (heads, feet, bones etc.) as well as quality, thus the nutritional value is also not consistent. Don't forget that byproducts consist of any parts of the animal OTHER than meat. If there is any use for any part of the animal that brings more profit than selling it as "byproduct", rest assured it will appear in such a product rather than in the "byproduct" dumpster.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> NO WAY,I don't think so, and if you look close you well notice a huge difference between my dog and others. I guess if you look with your eyes closed you won't notice much of a difference.


I'm in no way bad mouthing Orijen but I don't feed it and tbh, the only difference I see in your dog and mine is the fact your dog is a black and tan purebred GSD and mine is a liver and tan GSD/Kelpie. o_o (And my dog has cleaner ears lol)

I rotate foods (formulas AND brands) every 1-2 bags so can't really tell you what he was on in each picture. I also feed "extras" often including rotating canned foods (brands and formulas), fresh meats, raw meaty bones, eggs, yogurt, cheese, pumpkin, ect. Point is, my boy isn't lacking in a healthy coat.  (Or healthy anything!) And yet, I'm not feeding Orijen nor have I ever. (But I also don't feed food filled with corn, soy, wheat, by-products, unnamed meat meals, ect)











































Though I must agree, I don't understand why if Sables dogs are so "healthy" and "great looking" why they don't have pictures posted but continually bash people for their choice in dog foods who have the pictures and records to prove that their dogs are healthy and thriving. :thinking: I still never received an answer on Konotashi's post about Ozzy being picky about why Sable continues to tell me how I feed my dogs is wrong when I have vets, blood work, fecals and urinalysis proving my dogs are healthy inside and out. Just as their dog food seems to work for them so they feel they don't need to change, I feel that change/variety is the key to health for MY dogs....But yet it never fails for them to tell me (or anyone here) how wrong/gullible we are and shove corn kibble in the face of every one.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> It's funny that anyone would try to make a case for any dog food that contains Chicken by-product meal, as abady does!! Then try and bad mouth Orijen !! *You two are quite a pair*.


I don't really see how I'm part of a "pair" who is pushing anything. I don't push any particular food, in fact I have no idea what the brand abady even is (never heard of it) and I'm not bad mouthing Orijen.

I simply don't think it's the "best food available, period" and I think your dog looks like any other well cared for dog on this site. I understand that you think your dog is "awesome" and you should, it's your dog. But everyone here thinks their dog is just as fabulous. Your dog doesn't look any different, regardless of what you may think.

Orijen isn't the be all end all to dog food.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Sable....my friend is/was a Rottweiler Breeder (I got my first Rottweiler from her)...she used Abady for many years along with Precise Dog Food. Her Rotts looked wonderful! I have used the food before...but it was never "convenient" for me to purchase...so I have no personal opinion of it.
*I want to add...she also feeds them a large amount of real meats and cooked vegetables*.
I think finding a food that your dog(s) look great on and digest well...is most important. I've tried Orijen....it was ok. If it didn't cost such an astronomical amount of money to feed...I would consider feeding more of it.....but I don't think it's the best food on the market. 
_I think the best food on the market...is the one your dog's do good on...and a person_ _can afford.!_
jmo


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> LOL, LOL how did I know you work for abady. WHICH IS ONE OF THE WORST DOG FOODS MADE TODAY!!! LOL. LOL. I guess if you think LARD is meat.
> And I just love this statement made by a low grade dog food and obviously they know nothing about it, what a slmbag company to make such a false statement!!
> 
> Other than the fact that hip dysplasia can be prevented through the judicious feeding of Abady


I don't work for Abady I work in finance. I only brought it up because you did.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

...


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Did the rules change or something?

Also, sable123, you realize your choice of insults is very revealing, right?


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

3toestonyismydog said:


> no way,i don't think so, and if you look close you well notice a huge difference between my dog and others. I guess if you look with your eyes closed you won't notice much of a difference.


seriously its not something to brag about if your dog can only look like this if you have to spend a fortune on food for him to look healthy.why would anyone be happily yelling about spending so much is beyond me.i'm proud of the fact that i can feed my dog a balanced inexpensive and all inclusive diet and have beautiful glossy healthy dogs with healthy firm stool to boot.to say that you "have" to feed $80 plus a bag and be proud of it makes you sound kinda thick and not too quick.sorry just another perspective.it actually says alot about your dogs genetics and health if it can"t cope on any other diet.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

tierra nuestra said:


> seriously its not something to brag about if your dog can only look like this if you have to spend a fortune on food for him to look healthy.why would anyone be happily yelling about spending so much is beyond me.i'm proud of the fact that i can feed my dog a balanced inexpensive and all inclusive diet and have beautiful glossy healthy dogs with healthy firm stool to boot.to say that you "have" to feed $80 plus a bag and be proud of it makes you sound kinda thick and not too quick.sorry just another perspective.it actually says alot about your dogs genetics and health if it can"t cope on any other diet.


I pay *57 dollars* for a bag and according to my math that is quite a bit different than 80. Besides, IT'S MY MONEY!!!


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I pay *57 dollars* for a bag and according to my math that is quite a bit different than 80. Besides, IT'S MY MONEY!!!.


$80 is a fortune to most people who are paying bills and probably raising kids and/or large dog(s)....:thinking: Unless you're like a doctor or a **** good lawyer or something.

I'm currently paying $23 (after tax) for a 30lb of Nurture dog food. I don't feel bad about saving the $30 more I was spending feeding Wilderness. I do plan to go back to grain free once I can find another job but for now, I really don't care since my dogs are still shiny, clear eyes, great stools, plenty of energy, maintaining muscle mass, ect. And here, Orijen IS a good $80-$90. And no, I wouldn't spend that on kibble. I can feed RAW for less.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What's with all the caps and different size fonts? Is all that really needed?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Abady does in fact have more meat protein than Orijen, and it did 30 years ago as well. The FDA allows pet food company's to list the ingredients before processing so the 80% of weight inlcludes water. Also, Orijen lies because most of the important ingredients come from the US not Canada but you should know this since you do this for a living.
> 
> Also, Orijen's return rates are going up so as the other poster stated many dogs and consumers are finding the results are not what they are cracked up to be.
> 
> Do you know what Champion did just a few years back?


 
*Why is it bad that some ingredients come from the US instead of Canada?*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wonder why all the hostility about dog food? Doesn't seem to be a subject that should engender such outright hostility! Like say, training methods or something?

Just curious.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

In a discussion, it is important not to make insulting remarks or to use innuendo of a risqué nature. We can surely keep it civil and non-personal.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

codmaster said:


> *Why is it bad that some ingredients come from the US instead of Canada?*


It is not bad but it is dishonest. If they lie about that what else will they lie about? The whole marketing angle is "local Canadian ingredients".

It is more than just some it is the whole base of the Orijen diet.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

3toestonyismydog said:


> i pay *57 dollars* for a bag and according to my math that is quite a bit different than 80. Besides, it's my money!!!


slow down lone ranger,$80 is what we pay here in alberta where its made!and $80 is a fortune for dog food not all aspects of my life.you seem very deffensive about a subject that others seem as mundane.overwhelmingly so that instead of being seen as a rational source of information you end up being passed off as kinda off .and no need to feel sorry for me,i have no need to feel sorry for myself so why would you?

You seem to have a need to push people into agreeing with your views on food but everyone is not going to agree and has the right not to.i have honestly fed orijen and twice i have recieved product that was rank.i mean it stunk like rotten lamb.there would not have been such a problem if they returned my money when i brought the bag back full but opened but that was not the case.they took my bag and said they would look into it and i would have to wait for a refund.i have never heard back from them since even after repeated attempts to contact them.not great customer relations as far as i can see.

As for condition of my dogs?not that great of results.my dogs do better on another brand and have better weight retention.plus i pay less,so do i really have much of a decision to make on the subject?its kinda simple just like feeding your dogs should be.i also looked through your albums and your dog is nice like so many others but camera angles add gloss where none exists and vise versa.but it comes down to the main point that healthy dogs should not have to be fed an expensive diet to thrive.people should be proud that their dogs thrive on nutritious healthy food not brand propaganda and empty wallets.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sable123 said:


> It is not bad but it is dishonest. If they lie about that what else will they lie about? The whole marketing angle is "local Canadian ingredients".
> 
> It is more than just some it is the whole base of the Orijen diet.


Personally I would rather see "Made in the USA" than "Made in Canada" on my dog food.

(although that would be a LOT better than "Made in xxxxxx " (some countries)!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I used to feed Nature's Variety, seemed like a top notch food and my vet recommends and sells it. I bought the rabbit meal kibble. Stosh didn't do well on it and ultimately refused to eat it- turns out the rabbit is raised in China but they have a NV employee on sight to supervise. Still they call it 'made in USA'.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

tierra nuestra said:


> slow down lone ranger,$80 is what we pay here in alberta where its made!and $80 is a fortune for dog food not all aspects of my life.you seem very deffensive about a subject that others seem as mundane.overwhelmingly so that instead of being seen as a rational source of information you end up being passed off as kinda off .and no need to feel sorry for me,i have no need to feel sorry for myself so why would you?
> 
> You seem to have a need to push people into agreeing with your views on food but everyone is not going to agree and has the right not to.i have honestly fed orijen and twice i have recieved product that was rank.i mean it stunk like rotten lamb.there would not have been such a problem if they returned my money when i brought the bag back full but opened but that was not the case.they took my bag and said they would look into it and i would have to wait for a refund.i have never heard back from them since even after repeated attempts to contact them.not great customer relations as far as i can see.
> 
> As for condition of my dogs?not that great of results.my dogs do better on another brand and have better weight retention.plus i pay less,so do i really have much of a decision to make on the subject?its kinda simple just like feeding your dogs should be.i also looked through your albums and your dog is nice like so many others but camera angles add gloss where none exists and vise versa.but it comes down to the main point that healthy dogs should not have to be fed an expensive diet to thrive.people should be proud that their dogs thrive on nutritious healthy food not brand propaganda and empty wallets.


I do more research and talk to more people about dog food than anyone you know and this is the first time I have ever heard that a bag of Orijen was not up to par. If you tried to contact them using the same kind of grammar as you used above, I can understand why they did not respond. And yes their are a lot of good dog foods out there and here is a list we have made up. Am I aware of Diamond and Menu foods of course, but we still recommend TOTW. I HAVE TALKED WITH EVERYONE OF THESE DOG FOOD COMPANIES.. Sorry to hear that they don't respond to you, but they did to me and I am also sorry to hear that Orijen is 23 dollars more where you live. I am also sorry to hear that this empties your wallet and I am sorry that you are the first one that I have ever heard of that got a bad bag of Orijen(which I highly doubt). Here is that list and of course abady is only on our list, of the worst dog foods.

*The A list*
*1. **Orijen*
2. Acana, Harvest, pacifica & grassland Only.
3. Horizon Legacy
4. Taste of the Wild, wetlands & prairie, ONLY.
5. GO, grain free /Endurance Only.
6. Fromm, 4 star.
7. Merrick
8. Wellness Core
9. Blue Wilderness
10. Acana, the rest of Acana products.
11. Artemis
*The B list*
1. GO, the rest of their products.
2. Evangers
3. Timberwolf
4. Fromm, the rest of their products.
5. Instinct
6. Wellness *super 5 mix*
7. Now, Grain free. 
8. Solid Gold
9. Precise Holistic Complete, Only.
10. Natures Logic
11. First Mate
12. Kirkland or Natural Domain, Costco!(mainly because of cost)
13. Now, the rest of their products.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I do more research and talk to more people about dog food than anyone you know and this is the first time I have ever heard that a bag of Orijen was not up to par. If you tried to contact them using the same kind of grammar as you used above, I can understand why they did not respond. And yes their are a lot of good dog foods out there and here is a list we have made up. Am I aware of Diamond and Menu foods of course, but we still recommend TOTW. I HAVE TALKED WITH EVERYONE OF THESE DOG FOOD COMPANIES.. Sorry to hear that they don't respond to you, but they did to me and I am also sorry to hear that Orijen is 23 dollars more where you live. I am also sorry to hear that this empties your wallet and I am sorry that you are the first one that I have ever heard of that got a bad bag of Orijen(which I highly doubt). Here is that list and of course abady is only on our list, of the worst dog foods.
> 
> *The A list*
> *1. **Orijen*
> ...


Mr. 3 Toes, tell everyone what Champion did until 2003 and about The Pet Pantry. Also who is the "we" you refer to above when you say "we still recommend"


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Personally I would rather see "Made in the USA" than "Made in Canada" on my dog food.
> 
> (although that would be a LOT better than "Made in xxxxxx " (some countries)!


Don't worry about what sable says BECAUSE ORIJEN NEVER MAKES THAT STATEMENT,THEY SAY(see quote below), sable works for abady. Which makes the ridulous statement that abady can fix hip dysplasia!! I actually put sable on my ignore list..

From free-run poultry, to wild-caught fish to free-range red meats, our regional ingredients are approved 'fit for human consumption' by the Government of Canada and arrive at our door fresh each day — so they’re preservative free and bursting with goodness to nourish your dog or cat completely.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

> I do more research and talk to more people about dog food than anyone you know


How do you know this?



> If you tried to contact them using the same kind of grammar as you used above, I can understand why they did not respond.


That is no excuse for poor customer service.



> I am also sorry to hear that Orijen is 23 dollars more where you live. I am also sorry to hear that this empties your wallet


So come protest the price here. Not that it will do much since plenty of people DO pay the higher price. Also, find me a better paying job that I'll enjoy (I'd rather work as a starving groomer/kennel tech than work in a cube answering phones for people all day or something just so I can buy myself and my dog lobster for dinner) while you're at it since you feel "so sorry" for people who find $80 dog food to be expensive. Though honestly it still wouldn't convince me that my dogs health is going to be any better feeding $80 food as it has been on $50 and less dog food.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Don't worry about what sable says BECAUSE ORIJEN NEVER MAKES THAT STATEMENT,THEY SAY(see quote below), sable works for abady. Which makes the ridulous statement that abady can fix hip dysplasia!! I actually put sable on my ignore list..
> 
> From free-run poultry, to wild-caught fish to free-range red meats, our regional ingredients are approved 'fit for human consumption' by the Government of Canada and arrive at our door fresh each day — so they’re preservative free and bursting with goodness to nourish your dog or cat completely.


so you are aware it is a fact that the majority of the protein in their adult formula comes from chicken meal made in kentucky, right? just ask them like i did...they will tell you.

i still think orijen is one of the better foods. im just adding some facts here.


now, the "we" that three toes tony refers to is fictional. he like to pretend he is a professional food reviewer on dogfoodchat.com...most of us over there just let him enjoy his delusions of grandeur.

he likes to bully people when they dont see things his way, as you will see with his large bolded statements he makes.............he is in no way a professional dog food reviewer, as this approach is not taken seriously by anyone.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Stosh said:


> I used to feed Nature's Variety, seemed like a top notch food and my vet recommends and sells it. I bought the rabbit meal kibble. Stosh didn't do well on it and ultimately refused to eat it- turns out the rabbit is raised in China but they have a NV employee on sight to supervise. Still they call it 'made in USA'.


Seems that it is best to avoid anything a vet recommends... like Science Diet.
Very disappointed in vets in that regard.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

I tried Natures Varieties Instinct, but it did not work for my dog. That does mean it isn't a good dog food, it just didn't work for my dog. He got very runny poo on it and yes, I certainly know how to transition dog foods. Tony could not eat Merrick either, but I still recommend that food. I believe Horizon Legacy has to be the most under rated dog food today, great stuff.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I do more research and talk to more people about dog food than anyone you know and this is the first time I have ever heard that a bag of Orijen was not up to par. If you tried to contact them using the same kind of grammar as you used above, I can understand why they did not respond. And yes their are a lot of good dog foods out there and here is a list we have made up. Am I aware of Diamond and Menu foods of course, but we still recommend TOTW. I HAVE TALKED WITH EVERYONE OF THESE DOG FOOD COMPANIES.. Sorry to hear that they don't respond to you, but they did to me and I am also sorry to hear that Orijen is 23 dollars more where you live. I am also sorry to hear that this empties your wallet and I am sorry that you are the first one that I have ever heard of that got a bad bag of Orijen(which I highly doubt). Here is that list and of course abady is only on our list, of the worst dog foods.
> 
> *The A list*
> *1. **Orijen*
> ...


 Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but your grammar may be worse than mine.Your quote-"And yes their are a lot of good dog foods out there and here is a list we have made up." Ummm,I believe it should be "there".
And once again, my wallet is just fine and I am along way from suffering but alot of others may not be and should not be made to feel guilty about purchasing less expensive food for their pets.
As for your doubt about a rank bag of "ORIJEN",I really could care less what you think it just shows what type of mentality you have on the subject.As for making the claim you know more than anyone I know is odd as I have never met you or hopefully never will in this case:fingerscrossed:.Please get over yourself and your overweaning confidence in what you may think is the best for everyone.Mayhaps,you should just worry about whats best for you and your dog and not everyone else's as you come off rude and insulting rather than contributing in a helpful and constructive manner.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Honestly, I don't think 3ToesTony is anything more than maybe a 13 or 14 year old. Though it "makes me very sad" for them that they have the self control of a 4 year old and stoop to insulting peoples jobs (Apparently I'm a "pin head on the low end of the pay scale" and they "make more in a day than I do in a month") as a way to make themselves feel big.

Honestly I'm going to go back to my offer of that job again if this person is making over $2,000 a day!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'm with Samba. . . for the cost of a bag of Orijen I'd rather just feed meat.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Emoore said:


> I'm with Samba. . . for the cost of a bag of Orijen I'd rather just feed meat.


According to 3ToesTony, that makes you poor and stupid.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Both of my dogs love their Orijen and TOTW...they also liked Costco food, grocery store food when we had our huge storms last year, and anything out of the fridge that is about to go bad. Honestly I don't know why anyone feels the need to degrade another about the food they are feeding or the reasons they feed it. 3Toestonyismydog your dog sorry, is not the picture of perfection, and btw neither is mine; but seriously what planet are you from? People buy what works for their dog first and then what is affordable. Food alone does not make the exterior of the dog- exercise, genetics, and other environmental factors play a huge role here.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Honestly, I don't think 3ToesTony is anything more than maybe a 13 or 14 year old. Though it "makes me very sad" for them that they have the self control of a 4 year old and stoop to insulting peoples jobs (Apparently I'm a "pin head on the low end of the pay scale" and they "make more in a day than I do in a month") as a way to make themselves feel big.
> 
> Honestly I'm going to go back to my offer of that job again if this person is making over $2,000 a day!!


Ha I get banged around because I have sloppy typing and my keyboard goes on the fritz alot. When someone constantly belittles other for lack of,generally it "IS" all about making themselves feel better for "their" lack of. I REALLY DO NOT LIKE propaganda shoved down my throat and when I do not agree, I get doused in insults. As for insults about how much you make for a living and for someone to use it as ammo is quite distasteful and yes,sad. Its how you maximize what you make/have and making smart choices that matters.It's ironic how he keeps on about my empty wallet.And how he feels so sorry for me.Jeez if he only knew....


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

tierra nuestra said:


> Ha I get banged around because I have sloppy typing and my keyboard goes on the fritz alot. When someone constantly belittles other for lack of,generally it "IS" all about making themselves feel better for "their" lack of. I REALLY DO NOT LIKE propaganda shoved down my throat and when I do not agree, I get doused in insults. As for insults about how much you make for a living and for someone to use it as ammo is quite distasteful and yes,sad. Its how you maximize what you make/have and making smart choices that matters.It's ironic how he keeps on about my empty wallet.And how he feels so sorry for me.Jeez if he only knew....


Apparently he feels the same about me. Though I've said IN THIS POST and on others, that since my dogs blood work, fecals and urinalysis come out PERFECT every year (Besides Zoey's recently low thyroid but at nearly 13 years old, to otherwise be in perfect health to where the vet tech thought she was 2-3 I'd say I'm pretty happy) I don't feel I should pay $30-$60 more just to pay for the Orijen name when what I'm using WORKS. Proof of that is INSIDE -and- OUT. It's not a matter of IF I can afford it (I can), it's that I don't WANT to pay for it because I can get food that works for a lot cheaper. Why waste the money? I've also said and I'll say it again, ***RAW IS CHEAPER THAN ORIJEN***. Why -why- would I pay over $80 for a processed KIBBLE when I can feed FRESH MEATS, ORGANS and BONES for -half- the price?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> According to 3ToesTony, that makes you poor and stupid.


Wow.. can't believe the uproar in here about dog food.. 

I guess I am poor and stupid too since I feed raw.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Wow.. can't believe the uproar in here about dog food..
> 
> I guess I am poor and stupid too since I feed raw.


Crazy.This is because some owners choose not to feed orijen.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Hahaha.. I think we should start our very own club!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow. Personal bashing, blocking people, insulting others' jobs, demeaning one another about how much they spend on dog food? Are you serious? How does this prove how good of a food Orijen is?

Orijen might be a good food, but I'm not going to spend that much for dog food. Ozzy's coat looks just as good as your Orijen dog's coat, and he's on Taste of the Wild. There's not a 'staggering' difference between a dog's coat that's fed Blue Buffalo and one that's fed Orijen, sorry. And they could be just as healthy. 

How about we stop all the bashing, agree that Orijen is a good food, and call it a day?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm still stuck a couple pages back wondering why Evo didn't make either the A list or the B list...


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Holy crap! I do not get why 3 toes needs to yell at everyone. My dog looks just as good as yours and I feed Acana and raw. Get over yourself!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

this is ridiculous, I've never seen such bashing, "I know it all" , crap, over dog food.

Orijen may be a good dog food, but I for one, can not afford to feed 3 dogs a 29lb bag of food for 50 some bucks. I'd go thru it in a week or less. 

I'd bet if they dropped their prices ALL of us would feed it

My opinion, feed the best you can , what your dog does well on and won't break the bank, in that order.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Ok, I'm tired of going thru and editing all the posts (and apologize if I did a hatchet job on anyone that made their post too confusing) so...

lets refresh ourselves on the rules, BE POLITE, no cursing (and we aren't idiots, I know that ****** is a curse  ) and no personal attacks! 

Hate to ban members, but we will. Hate to lock topics, but we will.

It's just dog food, we all know what we know and are doing the best we can, hopefully with an open mind if something new to us is brought up.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

HEY!! It looks like Orijen changed their formula.

I thought since this thread has been beaten into the ground, and MOST people on this site feel ORIJEN is a top kibble. We all agree even if a dog is fed a quality kibble it may not work for my dog, but if Orijen does raise their prices lets say $10.00 will you still buy it.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I like the food...just as I like many other foods. My dogs do not have issues with foods in general....I've only had 2 with a possible "wheat sensitivity".. (knock on wood).
But even those 2 can and do eat a kibbled food with some grains in it.
We feed primarily EVO...because we like how the dogs thrive on it, and it is in our budget to do so......but we also use Kirkland Premium Chicken, for the older, retired dogs. (so it does offset some costs).
*The key is to find what is best for your budget and your dogs do well on*.
We also get compliments regularly on the coats & overall appearance of our dogs...I don't think feeding Orijen makes those types of compliments inclusive!
*NO...I will not feed ANY food that has a price tag like that*.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Me either it looks like $70.00 was my limit so now I have to choose another new food. I almost like it better when I didn't know anything about food..JUST KIDDING.. LOL


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> this is ridiculous, I've never seen such bashing, "I know it all" , crap, over dog food.
> 
> Orijen may be a good dog food, but I for one, can not afford to feed 3 dogs a 29lb bag of food for 50 some bucks. I'd go thru it in a week or less.
> 
> ...


*Just to let you know and how much research I do. Since I last posted here I have visited and talked with the owners/managers of 14 pet stores and I have read 8 new articles. So if you want to slam me, be my guest, I have big shoulders. :hug:BUT I DO MY HOMEWORK!! 
P.S. It's the reason Innova, C.N.(which I used to feed) and Evo are not on my list..
*


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Well Abby is finishing her first bag and all I can say is she is healthy on it but she does produce more poop than she did with Orijen Adult.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> *Just to let you know and how much research I do. Since I last posted here I have visited and talked with the owners/managers of 14 pet stores and I have read 8 new articles. So if you want to slam me, be my guest, I have big shoulders. :hug:BUT I DO MY HOMEWORK!!
> P.S. It's the reason Innova, C.N.(which I used to feed) and Evo are not on my list..
> *


Can you post those 8 articles?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am not saying Orijen is a "bad" food , nor am I slamming you. I think we all try and do our homework when it comes to dog food.

What I AM saying, is not everyone can afford to feed it especially with multiple dogs.
If the company would like to send me a FREE bag , I'd be glad to try it out, of course with 3 dogs, I'd need a BIG bag to see results


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> *Just to let you know and how much research I do. Since I last posted here I have visited and talked with the owners/managers of 14 pet stores and I have read 8 new articles. So if you want to slam me, be my guest, I have big shoulders. :hug:BUT I DO MY HOMEWORK!! *
> *P.S. It's the reason Innova, C.N.(which I used to feed) and Evo are not on my list..*


there is ZERO verifiable proof that anything has changed with Natura products to this point. they are still made at the same facility by the same people they always were. of course, nobody likes that P&G now owns them....

...... BUT there is a verifiable history of problems with Diamond facilities, yet you put TOTW on your "list" but not EVO, a superior food (at this point in time) in terms of ingredients and meat content.

sure, P&G could make some changes, but at this point it is all speculation. 

if you have proof that anything has actually changed in EVO, for example, please share........and no, internet rumor or hysteria or a pet shop owners fears dont count. im talking about some facts.


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## golfbum (Jan 11, 2010)

Derek,

On dog food chat you were the one slamming Evo after the p&g buyout, why the change of heart? RFD on dogfoodchat called you out on the fact nothing has changed and you argued owners on this board were having terrible results???? Kinda odd your playing both sides on different boards!


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

golfbum said:


> Derek,
> 
> On dog food chat you were the one slamming Evo after the p&g buyout, why the change of heart? RFD on dogfoodchat called you out on the fact nothing has changed and you argued owners on this board were having terrible results???? Kinda odd your playing both sides on different boards!


nope, i havent had a change of heart. please note that nowhere in my previous post did i say it is a fact that nothing has changed (the error in RFD's premise) i wont feed Natura products due to what i have seen here on this board (along with my feeling about P&G). and yes, i still would put TOTW below EVO until i had facts to go along with my suspicions. what i am attempting to do is extract any factual information that 3toes has previously claimed to have uncovered. i would love to have said information. i conceded to RFD that my information was based on experiences of a large enough group to cause me suspicion. i also conceded that i had no tangible "facts". what i am talking about here are verifiable facts. if someone has them, it would be valuable information.

there is how i feel and what i can prove with tangible facts. if 3toes has Natura products off his "list" because of something he has uncovered (as he seems to imply) then that would be some great information, no?


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Natural Pet Food FAQ’s – Pet Feeding, Organic Pet Food Topics – Natura Pet Products

Here is what P&G is saying so far. As of now nothing has changed when it comes to their formulas and they say nothing will change unless there is a "better" formula or they want to make it better........like Orijen did.

Tony, I am not saying that Orijen is a bad food, actually I think it's a great food but the hard fact is that my dog can not or I should say will not eat Orijen, if she does she eats 1 cup every 3 or 4 days and that's not sitting well with me. I tried LBP, Regional fish and Regional red and still nothing so I went to EVO red meat and as of now she eats great.

I also understand both sides of the spectrum when it comes to grain free or not and if I had to feed a food with grains I would do it as long as the dog will eat and be healthy on it.


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## GSDgirlAL (Jan 4, 2008)

I think all of this has gone way too far. We all do the best we can with what we have available ... we all LOVE our dogs and want the best for them. Topics like this take the "fun" out of the forum and what it's really about. Sure, everyone has their own opinion and voicing that is part of the forum but when people get rude and personal I think it's gone a little too far ...


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I agree. The constant "my opinion is better than yours" on these food threads is getting boring.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Here is 4 and they all have some good information!!!

The Pet Food List. Pet Food brands, manufacturers, products, ingredients, sources, cat, dog, food.

The Dog Food Project - Meat vs. Meal

What’s Really in Pet Food

http://www.ehow.com/about_5128154_add-meal-homemade-dog-food.html


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Denali Girl said:


> Natural Pet Food FAQ’s – Pet Feeding, Organic Pet Food Topics – Natura Pet Products
> 
> Here is what P&G is saying so far. As of now nothing has changed when it comes to their formulas and they say nothing will change unless there is a "better" formula or they want to make it better........like Orijen did.
> 
> ...


I used to feed California Natural and did so since Tony was 8 weeks, up until last month (he was 19 months). I really liked C.N., BUT the last bag gave him explosive diarrhea and it was the food. Since then I have done a lot of research about that brand and I have been told we are not alone with these problems. I really liked Evo and the rest of the products but now I have a different view. And by the way I also feed TOTW-wetlands as my dogs AM feeding.
I also believe brown rice is much better than potatoes and some other grain free ingredients. I also feed Horizon Legacy so it's not like I am stuck on Orijen I just believe it is the best mass produced kibble made today. I see a lot of people bashing me, but what I don't see is any one putting up the name of other products that are better. These are in the same league but I doubt they are better, sorry about not proof reading but I am in a hurry

 Acana, Harvest, pacifica & grassland 
 Horizon Legacy
 Taste of the Wild, wetlands & prairie, 
GO, grain free /Endurance Only.
 Fromm, 4 star.
Merrick
 Wellness Core
 Blue Wilderness
 Acana, the rest of Acana products.
 Artemis


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Hey Tony, I'm not bashing you at all and I too think Orijen is the best kibble on the market today......just not for my dog.

I'm not happy that Nutura got taken over but it is what it is. On their website they do say they will continue to try to improve their products and is still led by Don Scott, maybe their was a formula change in the California Natural and your dog doesn't agree with it? Maybe just a bad bag? I don't know but I do know that Orijen changed their formula and I have been reading that some dogs have the runs because of that change.

My dog is eating EVO red meat formula and she appears to love it (knock on wood) and I will keep feeding it to her until I know their is something wrong with the food (I would need to see proof), heck I actually have to restrict her from eating it or she would eat 10 cups a day if I let her, I LIKE seeing my dog eat so like I said before, if this food goes down the tubes I will find something else that fits her needs and something she will eat.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Here is 4 and they all have some good information!!!
> 
> The Pet Food List. Pet Food brands, manufacturers, products, ingredients, sources, cat, dog, food.
> 
> ...


 
no offense (and it is good you are doing research), but those are all links that have gotten passed around here for a long time now. just as important as what an article says is knowing who wrote it and what their credibility is regarding canine nutrition.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> I agree. The constant "my opinion is better than yours" on these food threads is getting boring.


Well naturally we think our opinion is better, that is why we stick with it. If I find that yours is better it will become mine and since it is now mine then it is better.


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## Junofan (Feb 25, 2011)

Is Blue Buffalo puppy food considered one of the better dog foods for puppies? 

I used orijen for another adult dog but am a little concerned with the higher protein in the orijen puppy food. This is the main reason I use Blue Buffalo puppy for my current GS pup.


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## lanaw13 (Jan 8, 2011)

I really like reading this forum, for good information…. if I need shouting I can go somewhere else. Too hard to dissect info from BS. Just my .02


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## Junofan (Feb 25, 2011)

Staying with the Blue Buffalo puppy and then will be going to the LB BB puppy when the current bag is finished.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

PaddyD said:


> Well naturally we think our opinion is better, that is why we stick with it. If I find that yours is better it will become mine and since it is now mine then it is better.


:rofl:


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

roxy84 said:


> no offense (and it is good you are doing research), but those are all links that have gotten passed around here for a long time now. just as important as what an article says is knowing who wrote it and what their credibility is regarding canine nutrition.


Very good points.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Well naturally we think our opinion is better, that is why we stick with it. If I find that yours is better it will become mine and since it is now mine then it is better.


 
Better be careful with that kind of logic, someone will ask you to run for Congress or the U.S. Presidency....:shocked:


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## Junofan (Feb 25, 2011)

My 4 month old itches, not all the time, but enough to drive me crazy. LOL. I am considering changing to a grain free puppy food. I am not even sure that the Blue Buffalo LBP is causing her to itch but I may try switching. 

What would you guys recommend? I know about Orijen but what are a couple more puppy food thats you can recommend? Thanks.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Yeah..GREAT PRICE!...around here it is between $75-$85


 
Why feed a dry, brown kibble for that ridiculous price ... when you could feed twice as good (raw) for less than half as much?



.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

This is all fine and dandy, but I feed Professional and I have no problems with it. Its good nutrition with the glucosamine and chondroitin that is needed in larger dogs. It doesnt contain as much of these supplements as orijen, but it does has enough. I pay $34 for 35lbs, which lasts about a month. This is a reasonable price for a great food.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I've never seen a kibble that contains enough chondroitin/glucosamine to do anything for a dog. If that's something to worry about then you should be supplementing with actual pills because kibble will do nothing.


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

My two German Shepherds have been on Orijen since I got them as pups one for 4 years one for 3 years. I have never had any type of health or skin issues with either of them.
They are both happy healthy dogs.Leading a quality active life. Orijen is not cheap but to me it is well worth the extra money.


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## Junofan (Feb 25, 2011)

Mu dog is now on Orijen LB puppy and she is doing very well on it. Itching is pretty much gone and she loves eating it. Cost here locally is very reasonable...


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