# HELP! Possible ACL tear



## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2010)

So i have a VERY large GSD, and it seems he might of torn his ACL. The vet said that is could be a full or partial tear. I am loath to get the xrays done because the tear might not show and thats $500 I really dont have.

He stands on three legs, walks on three and a half, and plays and runs on all four. I am in the process of getting a large crate and putting him on complete rest with only minimal walking and of course potty breaks in the hopes that is is just a partial tear and will heal with time.

Has this happened to anyone else? was the tear partial or full? can it heal with time, or will i have to opt for the xrays and an up tp $3500 surgery?


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

yes, you should take him to an ortho specialist. there are several different operations that repair acl tears but, because you describe your boy as "very large", the best and most long lasting one for him would be a TPLO, which is typically only done by a specialist. i recently learned this first hand when my boy tore his playing ball. depending on his age (as in how many more years will he live with this condition), you should definitely have the injury evaluated because, as i understand it, this type of injury predisposes them to early onset of osteoarthritis at the location of the injury and then you have a double whammy. where are you located (in general), is there a veterinary teaching hospital near you? 

the TPLO is not inexpensive, tho might be a bit less expensive at a vet college, but it is the most effective and most long lasting treatment for this injury.

good luck, welcome to the board. there is a huge amount of knowledge here, and others may have more or differing input, this is just what my personal experience has been recently. if you have any more questions that this response doesn't answer ask away!

let us know how things turn out...


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Our last shepherd was thought to have the same tear when she was 9, however, once the orthopedic surgeon got into her knee it turned out it wasn't a tear at all. He removed some bone spurs and "tightened" her knee by pulling everything together. She did very very well and had another 3 years of a happy active life. We didn't opt for x-rays ahead of time, just went straight to surgery- it cost $600. This was about 4 yrs ago.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks.

He's 2, turning 3 in Oct.

I have no idea how it happened. I went to work last monday morning and he was fine, and i got a txt just after lunch telling me he was limping. This was nothing as a shock, as i live with my parents and they have a mutt and both like to play ruff. So ruckus is occasionally turning up lame. ususally a couples weeks up to a month of rest and hes back to normal. 

He started to get better, and was a lot more active, playing with his kong and horsing around with the other dog, but monday this week, we got a really bad storm. He got his nickers in a twist and jumped on my bed, unfortunetly jumping on me. I in turn, having been woken from a sleep by an enormous dog and an even bigger thunderclapp, threw him off the bed, and now he is limping again.

If i get the xrays and it shows a partial tear, can we fix it with just rest? or is surgery the ONLY way to fix a partial to full tear? thanks again for the help.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2010)

OH-- and would anyone know of any good ortho specialist in the barrie/Toronto area?


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Hi and welcome!

I am sorry to read about your dog's injury. I understand all your feelings as Penny has partially torn both stifle ligaments, about 1 yr apart from each other. 

Most will say surgery is the only way to heal the dog and that your dog will continue to worsen with bad arthritis if you don't do the surgery right away. This simply isn't true. Conservative management of the injury is another approach that has worked very well for some, including Penny- twice now. 

Yes there will be dogs that do need the surgery, but my position is to try healing with CM first and if it doesn't work then go to surgery. If you properly restrict during CM the arthritis risk won't be increased. 

There is a wonderful yahoo group for those choosing CM and I highly suggest you join and read the intro primer they email you. It details the injury and what is involved with proper CM.

ConservativeManagement : Canine Conservative Management

Dog Ligament Injury-- Is Surgery Really Needed?

Another good yahoo group that is more surgically orientated if you chose that path, 

orthodogs : Discussion of canine orthopedic issues

And some recent threads here on the issue,

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/136841-ccl-injury.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/136634-torn-cruciate-non-gsd.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/136104-surgery-torn-ligament-not.html


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Our dog played really rough with her best friend next door- a basset mix who was pretty low to the ground. When they were running around, the basset would throw her weight against Omy's back legs and cut them out from under her. You know, the move called clipping in football? Beulah was a master at it. Apparently, years of those clips ruined Omy's knee. We skipped the x-rays because surgery was really the only option so we saved some money there.


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> If i get the xrays and it shows a partial tear


Xrays wont show ligaments. You need an mri for that which is highly expensive and not usually done for dogs due to the costs involved. An xray would help to rule out other issues though that could cause the same symptoms.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what natalie said ^^^,,xrays will NOT show a partial or full ligament tear..

I say take that 500$ and go to an ortho surgeon who is much better qualified than a vet to determine what's going on.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2010)

thanks for all your input, its helped get my head around this. 
i called my vet today to find out about the ortho specialist, and they are insisting they do x-rays first to be sure it is the cruciate ligament, before they recommend me.

i am definetly going to try conservative management, and then go from there. I will possible go to another vet for a second opinon as well, as my current vet seems to push xrays and the likes on me almost everytime I go in.

Ill update everyone on his progress with CM.
thanks again.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if your vet tells you he can "tell" from an xray if your dog has a tear or blown it's cruciate it's time for a new vet. And that's 'bull' that he won't refer you to a specialist..AGain, another reason for a new vet.

You can try conservative management, as in, complete crate rest ,,but if it's totally blown, conservative management will not help..

It's like a human needing a knee operation , you see alot of athletes with ACL injuries, most have to have surgery..


----------



## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Get a new vet,lol x-rays show bone not ligaments. Call an ortho specialist on your own and let them decide. Our henry tore something and healed fine with 6 weeks of crate rest and another 6 weeks of light play. Our vet said it could have been a ligament or muscle but to rest it first and if no improvements then seek a specialist- no x-rays though


----------



## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

hi neighbor....sorry to hear about the situation...my last dog had both ACL's done....one tore and like they said, almost a year to the day the other went. Was about 1500 per leg, that included all follow-ups and med, but the recovery was incredible. My brother was recently in the exact position you are; vet couldn't verify and insisted on MRI; my brother held off managing best he could (dog was pretty miserable so he pushed the vet) and eventually he got the surgery. Dog has recovered very well. I don't know of an ortho specialist here, but the one vet I would highly recommend (since yours clearly REFUSES to cooperate with your wishes, which umm, YOU are paying for!)....is Paul McCutcheon. I have seen him speak a few times and have his new book; he is who I would go to if my local vet was out of her league. He is a holistic vet, practices homeopathy, is knowledgeable on nutrition therapy and perhaps if you call and discuss the situation you can either arrange a second opinion or get some valuable info. by phone from them. Just an idea.

Here is the website, it's the East York Animal Clinic:

East York Animal Clinic :: Holistic Pet Vet :: Toronto :: Ontario


----------



## Quinnsmom (Dec 27, 2008)

Another option is to ask for a referral to the Veterinary Emergency and Referral Clinic in Toronto Surgery. They are located at Yonge and Davenport and have all specialties on staff. I was referred there by my vet for major dental issues. I liked the fact that they are staffed 24 hours daily so no leaving a post-surgical dog alone overnight.


----------



## Ashley_M (Feb 19, 2003)

I work at a vet clinic, and when our doctor suspects a torn ACL, he sedates the dog and preforms a positive cranial drawer test. Very simple and quick. This usually just costs: the exam fee and the sedation. Around $100 at our clinic.

"The positive cranial drawer test, in which the dog's knee is bent slightly and pressure is applied to the bones comprising it, is performed to check for instability within the joint."


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

dump your vet; get a new vet who will send you to the specialist. A specialist (and a good vet for that matter) can tell an ACL tear from the way the dog handles it.

I'd say don't go for conservative management - get the surgery. There's TPLO and TTA (I think) - I went with TTA which was judged best for large dogs at that time. 

You do not need xrays and if you did they shouldn't cost $500! (Another reason to get a new vet!)


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2010)

thanks Gib Laut, ill check that out.

Quinnsmom, when i had asked my vet for the referal they had said i will need to do another examination so they can send me to one. they called it a referal examination.

middleofnowhere, because he is a gsd and a large one at that, they will fully sedate him. this clinic always take 2 views as well. so maybe thats why is expensive...

Im begining to suspect it might not be CCL or ACL as I crated him yesterday and today, and since tuesday he has been on strict rest; no playing, horsing around, running jumping ect. and I am already begining to see improvements. He's putting more weight on it, and not limping as much when he walks, just a little hitch in his step.

im still taking things on the cautious side. Im going to keep him crated for at least another week or so, see how he progresses and take him to another vet next week.


----------



## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Our youngest male Cody had a complete ACL tear in his right rear. It is correct a xray won't show the tear. However even I could see when comparing to the "good' leg, the inflammation around the affected knee joint. The diagnosis was complete when the vet was able to grasp the leg above and below the knee, the movement at the joint was compared to opening/closing a "drawer".

Our vet went over the options w/us including one which is new the "tigherope procedure". He referred us to a hospital/surgeon who went into more detail about each option. The TPLO sounded like the best long term option to us, so we went ahead with it and yes it was the most expensive. He's now into his fourth week after surgery and doing well 

That said----I did not find out about CM until after the fact. Had we known before hand, CM would have been tried BEFORE surgery. since the recovery from surgery is basically the same as CM (crating,rest, resticted movement and outside on a short leash only to do their business) IF surgery is necessary that choice can be made after CM. We'll never know whether CM would have worked in Codys case (complete tear)--- IMO it sounds like you're on the right track try CM first and make your decision on surgery afterwards.

Vaughn


----------

