# Accidents happen



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So my day started with my wife's Cane Corso pooping all over the back seat on the way to an adventure. We turned around and got that cleaned up. When I let the dogs back into the camper, one of them got tangled in the cord to the coffee maker and it hit the floor. Broken

After cleanup of the camper and SUV, I tried again to head out with the dogs. We got to a remote state wildlife area. I parked the SUV and let the dogs out. We were about 100 yards from the parking area when another truck pulled in and parked. A dog was gong nuts, barking in the truck. I leashed both Hank and Valor and put them in a down.

A small kid opened the door on the truck and a dog came flying out, headed towards us at full speed. I yelled a couple times as did the owner and kid but he didn't slow up at all. He dodged me and went for Hank, the Cane Corso, biting him in the side.

At this point, both my dogs went after the attacker. Valor grabbed his neck and pinned him. Hank got his head and crunched it. 

I outed Valor and after a correction he let go. Went to a down and stayed after another correction. Hank wasn't having it. He was on a prong and DD backup and also had a flat collar on. The prong did nothing so I grabbed him by the flat collar, twisted and lifted him off. I kept him lifted up as he was in full on kill mode.

The owner and kids were screaming. The dog was limp and twitching. He apologized to me repeatedly as he scooped the dog up and rushed it to his truck. The kids were distraught.

What a terrible tragedy. I think the dog will probably die. I feel so sorry for that family.

Hank has some puncture wounds so I cleaned them out with a syringe and saline and started him on doxy. I can't find anything on Valor.

Bad day.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Oh my, I am so sorry. That feeling of helplessness through no fault of your own. Plus I would be so angry that your dogs were attacked and put in that position.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's just horrible. Even those of us that are consistently responsible and proactive can't predict every possible scenario. I'm sure all involved are just sick about it.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Terribly sorry to hear. What a bad day to say the least. Universe was trying to keep you home. I can't even imagine how you must feel. I will say a prayer for you. Try not to get to down on yourself.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

That is an unfortunate situation all around. I think people, especially kids, don’t always realize the gravity of the decisions you make until you’re faced with consequences you can’t walk back. Probably my favorite dog I’ve ever owned was put down for escaping the yard and biting someone. It’s a hard day and situation to deal with. You handled the situation the best you could and you weren’t in the wrong. As much as the gut reaction to be upset with the other family might be there, they’ve ultimately paid a very steep price already. I commend you for having the wherewithal to act when most people wouldn’t.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

No words.
I was thinking the end of the story would be just an untrained dog running up and your dogs handling it well.
"Probably will die" is so sad and unnecessary. What kind of dog was it?

I work very hard at having my boys needing to be released before jumping out of the truck for just this reason. So sorry this happened to you, it feels horrible even when you did nothing wrong


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

oh my.
only explicits came to mind reading this… like WNGD, i was expecting a very different outcome.
there was a poem when i was a kid - Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Day.
so sorry… for all involved.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Update:

The guy was taking his grandkids out to play with the dog. They were just turning around when he saw me and the dogs, headed to another location. The guy knew his dog was aggressive. The kid didn't understand and opened the door.

The dog was dead on arrival at the vet. The guy described me to the vet and he gave him my number. He feels terrible. Kid is blaming himself but he said he will be ok.

Thankfully, it sounds like the dog died instantly and didn't suffer. 

I called the vet and he said broken skull, bleeding from the ears and nose, broken jaw. I thanked him for giving the guy my number.


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## Zeppy (Aug 1, 2021)

So sorry David, this is horrible


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Wow. I'm sorry that happened, though of course no fault of your own. Poor kid, he'll have to live with that mistake. 

I thought about posting something here but never did....while I was out with Willow at the check station this season, I made a couple mistakes with her that could have easily gotten her killed...both involving 70mph traffic flying by, and me trusting her too much that she'd stay out of the road. Luckily I get a second....er, third...chance. I lost sleep over thinking about what had almost happened. Hopefully the kid will learn from this and be a better dog owner in the future.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It was a breed that shall not be named.

I have no remorse other than for the family. It was just an unfortunate turn of events. I wish it was just Valor with me. I think I could have stopped that. The dog was only about 50 pounds. Small enough for me to snatch up.

I don't blame my dogs for defending themselves. They did the right thing. I think I did all I could. It was just bad circumstances.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

That is just terrible, hard lesson for that kid.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

So sorry for everyone involved and especially those kids that witnessed that. 

Glad that the adult was reasonable about it all. Could have been much messier if he hadn't been.

Bad day indeed.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

Some days you do everything right and things still come out all wrong. I'm so sorry for the whole incident, especially when one realizes how unnecessary it was. Nor much I can say, except how sorry I am you and the dogs had to go through this.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Let this stand as a warning. While a PB or GSD sized dog can do some damage, a large or giant breed dog can inflict devastating damage in seconds. 

Having a dog with a head bigger than yours comes with responsibility. While I don't think Hank did anything wrong here, an out of control CC can inflict real damage. Please consider that before getting into these large, protection type breeds.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

That’s horrible, I’m so sorry for all involved.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

So sad.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Again an example of never take our days for granted. I bet there are photos after photos of this dog playing with the grand kids. Of course they think grandpa's dog is a big teddy bear. What a hard lesson for the kids to learn. Glad none of them got into the mix and got hurt.


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## doubleroll (Jul 5, 2011)

Man, a tragic series of events that no one wanted or expected to happen on this day. I feel sorry for all those involved in this nightmare…As bad as things turned out it could have been worse.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

You're right, your dogs did nothing wrong. 

It's a sad situation, but not your fault. If one of mine got bit I'd expect a similar reaction (though their heads are smaller). 
Having had aggressive dogs in the past and a reactive/aggressive dog now (Xerxes the Attack Beagle), there is a far larger responsibility that comes with owning and handling them.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I am so sorry this tragic accident happened. I’m sorry for everyone involved. I wish the other dog worn a muzzle and was restrained in the truck. They knew he was aggressive. I hope there will be no lasting effects on the kid and on David’s dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Dogs will be dogs. Yours did nothing wrong. I feel for the kids and hope they will be able to work through this. 
In less capable hands this situation could have been much worse and I hope your warning reaches someone. Just because someone wants a particular dog does not mean they should have it. We all need to be aware of the potential. 
I hope Hank and Valor are ok, and you to.


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## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

I’m so sorry David. What a horrible, sad day for everyone involved.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

As bad as it was, I’m glad your dogs were not hurt. The bite wasn’t serious? Given the scenario had they not defended themselves, that dog could easily have continued biting and hurt one of them. Owning any dog is a huge responsibility. Owning a dangerous fighting breed that the owner knows will attack other dogs and taking it anywhere it can start a fight is irresponsible. I know how upset you are. I can hear it in your words. Things happen, sometimes horrible things. This was preventable, but not by you. The other owner made a huge mistake.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

At least your dogs were able to survive. That dead dog would have killed an innocent little poodle. The dog's death is the consequence of not having control over the dog and omit correct management.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Let this stand as a warning. While a PB or GSD sized dog can do some damage, a large or giant breed dog can inflict devastating damage in seconds.
> 
> Having a dog with a head bigger than yours comes with responsibility. While I don't think Hank did anything wrong here, an out of control CC can inflict real damage. Please consider that before getting into these large, protection type breeds.


I'll stick with English Mastiffs, if I ever have a desire to get a giant breed. Last EM I had was a big love.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

What a traumatizing event for you all. I hope the owner of the deceased dog has learned something. Namely that a child should never be in a position to release an aggressive dog. A crate, a tie back in the car. Something that takes some time to release the dog from and something that an adult has control over. 

Peace to you and I hope Hank recovers easily.
Sheilah


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I feel badly for the children.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The bite to Hank isn't too bad. I think the dog released on its own when Valor got it by the neck. Just 4 puncture wounds over the ribs. There is some swelling but nothing major. Had he not released, I think it would have been a hard wound to close. Valor rag dolled the dog.

They both seem ok now. They crashed after we got home and I left to go to some meetings.

We will see how they react to other dogs in the near future. I will keep them away from contact for a couple weeks. I don't think Valor was too stressed but Hank was freaked. Pinpoint pupils. Shaking. Very on edge. Huge adrenaline spike and probably some cortisol to burn off.

Thanks for the kind replies everyone. I appreciate it.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Was your wife there? Just be understanding, mindful and aware of post traumatic stress resulting from the attack, I'm so very, very sorry this happened.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Take care of yourself too, it must be emotional. It is so good that Hank's okay, hopefully no last psychological impacts. Valor did well to help Hank.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Dunkirk said:


> Was your wife there? Just be understanding, mindful and aware of post traumatic stress resulting from the attack, I'm so very, very sorry this happened.


No. My wife is on vacation.

I'm very familiar with PTSD and it's symptoms. 

Thank you


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm doing fine. I have a lot of experience with stressful situations. I've been in my fair share of armed altercation. I know how to properly handle this kind of thing. Writing about it here helps.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sorry, David. It is indeed a bad day. I'm glad you are not second guessing yourself. Unfortunately, kids often act quicker than we can expect. I'm glad no person was hurt in this and that your dogs will be ok.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

My previous dog was breed profiling for a few years after he (still very young) and my husband were attacked by 2 dogs of a certain breed, and my husband was knocked off his feet by one of the dogs. Everyone was ok but our dog became aggressive to that one breed for a while. It went away eventually.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David, I hope that this attack hasn't changed Valor since he is so young still. He handled it impressively.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I am so so sorry. Stressful and traumatic all the away around, for everyone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm sorry that happened. This is why, though I have never experienced anything so devastating, that I prefer to go with just one dog, anywhere. It is just a lot less stressful to me. Perhaps I have an idea that I can prevent something like that with one dog, but with two I have just two hands, and when both are needed... And sometimes there is just nothing you can do. A cane corso is a big, powerful dog. And it is too much to ask of a dog to take a bite without reacting. One should be able to take 2 or 10 dogs anywhere, if they are under control. Unfortunately, as you say, accidents happen. And you can probably control two better than I can one anyway. But it is true that I usually take a single dog because I can manage mine if others manage theirs, but because I know that others don't always, I'm better off managing just one at a time.


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## happyblond (Sep 14, 2012)

I'm so sorry for you and all involved,
from what I know of you on this forum you are very well respected by myself and everyone else here and I think if there was anything that could have been done you could have done it,
stay strong try to move forward and I hope Hank recovers both psychologically and physically I hope valour will be ok as well.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I've been in a situation where a rescue I was trying to rehabilitate grabbed hold of my male GSD and would not release. Had a adrenaline stress-induced headache for the rest of the day. The situation was made worse by my male redirecting onto the person who had his leash...

Horrible situation all around. 😥 

At least no humans were hurt, thank heavens.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> I'm sorry that happened. This is why, though I have never experienced anything so devastating, that I prefer to go with just one dog, anywhere. It is just a lot less stressful to me. Perhaps I have an idea that I can prevent something like that with one dog, but with two I have just two hands, and when both are needed... And sometimes there is just nothing you can do. A cane corso is a big, powerful dog. And it is too much to ask of a dog to take a bite without reacting. One should be able to take 2 or 10 dogs anywhere, if they are under control. Unfortunately, as you say, accidents happen. And you can probably control two better than I can one anyway. But it is true that I usually take a single dog because I can manage mine if others manage theirs, but because I know that others don't always, I'm better off managing just one at a time.


I know that had it just been me and Valor, that dog would still be alive. I'm not shouldering blame, but it's definitely a fact. 

I normally only take one dog, particularly since Valor reached adolescence. The wife is on vacation and I was exercising Hank as well. I have been going to a particularly secluded spot. I have never seen another human at this location.

But you are right. I could have handled the aggressive dog if it was only one other dog I had to worry about.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I also had the thought that you'll need to monitor for any changes in Valor or Hank's disposition towards other dogs in general or a "rusher" aggressive or otherwise for awhile. Being bitten can change a dog.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

I echo everyone's shock and dismay and thanks that you are ok and that your dogs, hopefully, will be as well, both physically and mentally. There is no one I can imagine who would have handled that situation better, David. As was said previously, you are highly respected for your knowledge, your abilities and your integrity.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> I also had the thought that you'll need to monitor for any changes in Valor or Hank's disposition towards other dogs in general or a "rusher" aggressive or otherwise for awhile. Being bitten can change a dog.


100%. I'm going to give them both a cool off couple of weeks before any interactions. They have been surprisingly normal with each other this evening, which is a good thing.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Now, that was a crappy day.

It’s funny how humans are always the ones more affected, dogs just move on. Under the circumstances, they behaved exactly as they should have. 
Valor has proven worthy of his name.❤

David, I do believe a good shot of bourbon is in order.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> They have been surprisingly normal with each other this evening, which is a good thing.


They evidently can work well together 😉


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> David, I do believe a good shot of bourbon is in order


Roger that


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In the past the weirdest accident happened. My Whippet, in his prime, was being chased aggressively by a medium sized dog who tried to outrun him. His throat hit an overhanging branch and died instantly. His owner and I were both in shock without any hard feelings.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

David, I'm glad you and the dogs are mostly unscathed despite the shock.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Ah David, what a rotten day.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

So sorry to hear the tough situation but glad at least you and your pups are alright and that your not dwelling on irrational coulda/woulda/shoulda's. I know firsthand it can be harder to entirely see it that way when your one of the ones involved in a bad situation like that and can take some time to really let it go.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the dogs will be fine. Your dog and your wife's dog. I think they tend to have more problems when we keep them in the moment much longer than necessary, and when we start reacting early when in a potentially similar situation, like tightening up on the leash and exuding fear enzymes. I second the shot of whiskey. I feel sorry for those people, because they probably found the same secluded spot and kids sometimes don't think. Just tragic all around. It's the kids and the family of the other dog, while in the wrong, that I worry about, because that was tragic and devastating. Some things you just can't take back. You aren't at fault. Sometimes it just doesn't matter who was at fault, we still feel bad for the party with the most damage. Maybe their dog will survive and their kids will learn a terrible lesson without losing their dog. People don't take their dog places if they do not care about them. It only takes a few seconds for something to happen that we can't reverse. Note to self: If I go somewhere with kids and dogs, the dog is going to be in a crate if at all possible. Then the kid will have to release the dog and open the door, and there is that much more of an opportunity to intervene.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

What a horrible stressful day!!

This happened to us once - guy opened car door, unleashed aggressive dog leapt out, ran straight for Rumo and attacked him. Luckily for us, the owner ran over and was able to pull the dog off and then started screaming in the dog's face and whacking it...(some people are as scary as their dogs.) We went home, but I was so worked up that I couldn't really focus for the rest of the day. I remember being extremely relieved when we were approached by a dog a few days later, and Rumo greeted her with a friendly sniff.

One wonders why a smaller dog would attack a dog like a Cane Corso...what he/she was thinking...


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

GSDchoice said:


> What a horrible stressful day!!
> 
> This happened to us once - guy opened car door, unleashed aggressive dog leapt out, ran straight for Rumo and attacked him. Luckily for us, the owner ran over and was able to pull the dog off and then started screaming in the dog's face and whacking it...(some people are as scary as their dogs.) We went home, but I was so worked up that I couldn't really focus for the rest of the day. I remember being extremely relieved when we were approached by a dog a few days later, and Rumo greeted her with a friendly sniff.
> 
> One wonders why a smaller dog would attack a dog like a Cane Corso...what he/she was thinking...


I have seen a lot of dogs that get hyper focused and just don't care about the size of dog they attack. And CC's (other than being huge) aren't outwardly aggressive; I have seen well trained ones be entirely neutral. It's the potential they have, jaw strength etx.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Wow! I am so sorry, David. Should Hank have antibiotics for his punctures? My hound was bitten by something in the yard - possibly a fox. Had two, not very deep punctures, swelling, and pain. He was on an antibiotic and pain meds. Also got a new rabies shot a year early. Anyway, the medication helped immensely and he healed quickly.

I expect Valor and Hank will bounce back fine. You are such a stabilizing force in their lives. You know what to do and what to watch for. Take good care of you too. Wishing you only good days, going forward.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Steve, he's on doxycycline, which is an antibiotic.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I keep 14 days of doxy on hand just in case.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Having a dog with a head bigger than yours comes with responsibility. While I don't think Hank did anything wrong here, an out of control CC can inflict real damage. Please consider that before getting into these large, protection type breeds.



Above is what I told myself daily about my CC, I loved that guy and he was a sweet dog. That said, there was never a doubt in my mind of the damage he could inflict if he'd gone off on something. It was a great responsibility on my behalf to do everything I could to avoid that.

What a horrible day for all involved.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

I am so sorry to hear this! I'm that your dogs were obedient/able to be restrained, and everyone but the other dog is safe! What a terribly hard lesson for that kid, but I hope he learns from it. Little accidents can easily have HUGE consequences!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Life is filled with all kinds of bad days for sure this was certainly a bad one. Better days ahead though. I was just talking about powerful dogs. Glad your dogs are okay and all people were okay.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Dogs are both doing well. Thanks everyone


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## LaLew (Nov 10, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Dogs are both doing well. Thanks everyone


Sorry this happened, great news both dogs are doing well- and hopefully you are too.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Oh I'm just fine. Thank you.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

A sad turn of events. Take care David. I'm happy that your dogs are ok.


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## gtaroger (Aug 4, 2015)

Sorry to hear you had to go through that ordeal. My teenage daughter loved to walk our 10 month old GSD. She walk down our street. The neighbors small kid let their boxer out. It ran across the street and attacked our GSD. It scared my daughter so bad it took her at least a year before she would go for a walk without me along.From what the neighbors told me our GDS stood his ground and did pretty good at protecting himself.Lucky I found no damage to him.The adults need to kAgain I'm glade to hear your dogs are ok.eep a better watch on their dogs,especially if they know that their dog is aggressive.


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## GSDdefender (Sep 16, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Oh I'm just fine. Thank you.


Aside from this horrific event. I hope folks are able to focus on it and use it as a learning experience. This is something that could easily happen to many GSD owners. We never expect this day but we can try to prepare ourselves. There are so many flavors of GSD's out there. The common thread is, all dogs will require training and you knowing your dog. This is the one thing that will help keep folks out of trouble when the day comes. That is both sides of the situation. We can never know what another dog might do, just ours. If trained and worked with enough. Please don't let this cold weather and winter keep you inside and stop working with your dog. Getting to know your dogs blood line and characteristics can also help owners out. Get outside with those dogs folks.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSDdefender said:


> Aside from this horrific event. I hope folks are able to focus on it and use it as a learning experience. This is something that could easily happen to many GSD owners. We never expect this day but we can try to prepare ourselves. There are so many flavors of GSD's out there. The common thread is, all dogs will require training and you knowing your dog. This is the one thing that will help keep folks out of trouble when the day comes. That is both sides of the situation. We can never know what another dog might do, just ours. If trained and worked with enough. Please don't let this cold weather and winter keep you inside and stop working with your dog. Getting to know your dogs blood line and characteristics can also help owners out. Get outside with those dogs folks.


I believe in getting outside and doing things with my dog to a fault. I had a 102 fever with covid and I was out in the woods with my dog. 

I have seen what happens when you actually fulfill the needs and wants of a true GSD and there is nothing more satisfactory in the realm of human / animal interaction.

Yes, this is a cautionary tale. Bad things can happen, no matter how hard you work. Be prepared and understand that sometimes it's out of your control.


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## GSDdefender (Sep 16, 2021)

David Winners said:


> I believe in getting outside and doing things with my dog to a fault. I had a 102 fever with covid and I was out in the woods with my dog.
> 
> I have seen what happens when you actually fulfill the needs and wants of a true GSD and there is nothing more satisfactory in the realm of human / animal interaction.
> 
> Yes, this is a cautionary tale. Bad things can happen, no matter how hard you work. Be prepared and understand that sometimes it's out of your control.


True David and good man for getting outside. I'm working with a 9 week old puppy in 10" snow. There is nothing better than having a great working relationship with your dog.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

excellent reactions by both dogs here. super pack instincts by valor and super finish by the big boy. probably saved another dog and maybe even one of the grandkids.

only question is which dog got the bigger steak come treat time lol


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

"Super finish"? 
Someone's dog died here....the child who let the dog out and lost his pet must feel brutal.

I don't think there's much to be celebrated, not something you want any of the dogs involved to go through and I think David would agree.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Tragedy all the way around, for all involved! It's always easy, after the fact to pick things apart and point out micro changes that "may" have altered the outcome. Not really useful!

"Super finish" though, has to be called out as horse hockey! A best case scenario would have been all dogs walking away okay.

Didn't happen, nobody's fault, kids didn't act intentionally, just a bad situation that played out as it did. I would never fault a dog for protecting themselves! 

Ideal, only happens on Disney shows. Real life sometimes goes sideways...

David, glad to hear both dogs seem to be okay! I think often people are more traumatized than dogs when this kind of thing happens...I'm pretty certain you're not one to let it get to you or second guess every little element.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, sometimes we like to thump our chests and say, "I'd shoot someone if they hurt my dog!" or "I'd kick or shoot a dog that attacked mine." In real life though, if we were forced to shoot, or in this case the dog was attacked and thus forced to fight back, there is little to cheer about. 

Maybe you've never dodged a bullet similar to this one. I think sometimes when the worst doesn't happen, we forget too quickly and let it go too easily. 

Maybe I should have and maybe I did mention this in the confessions thread, don't remember. But the girls were at my house and I was outside and they opened the door and Cujo2 came out and before I realized it, he was in the street barking at the Amish guy who was riding his horse. Did I mention Cujo2 does not like horses, since the day I brought him back home. Well, I called him and he came, but then before I got him back inside, he ran back over there. Our dogs do humble us. I got him again and this time held on until he was in the house. I thought of all the things that could have happened: The Amish guy could have shot my dog to protect his horse. The horse could have kicked my dog in the head with an iron-shod hoof. My dog could have been run over in the road. Any of these things would have been my fault and could have been fatal. I wasn't a week older before there was a gate in front of my front door, so that someone would have to release that dog from two separate barriers before he would be able too do that or anything like it again. That was my bullet. 

The family in that car wasn't so lucky. One of the folks on here, years ago, was playing ball with his pup in the park, and in an instant, the pup darted into the road and was dead. Somethings you can't take back. Sometimes, most times, we dodge the bullet. And then there is that one time, and things aren't the same again. It's always best to not be the one at fault, but regardless of who is at fault, when a dog dies, or when a child is traumatized by pet dogs, we feel terrible. There is just no way around it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

No, nothing to celebrate. No good things happened. 

I learned to not go down the "what if" rabbit hole. I've lost friends in combat, been shot, stabbed, blown up and taken lives. There is only the truth of what happened. There is no blame to assign. People make mistakes. Sometimes they are painful. Just do your best.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

hanshund said:


> super finish by the big boy. probably saved another dog and maybe even one of the grandkids.


I often listen to the county's Animal Matters board where they listen to and judge on the issues brought to them by animal control or citizens. One thing that they commonly hear is "this is not a vicious dog. Here are all my photos of my dog playing with my grand children". Far too often this dog is charged with a biting incident with another dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Dog aggression and human aggression are totally separate.


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## RAGNARS MOMMA (Oct 15, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Let this stand as a warning. While a PB or GSD sized dog can do some damage, a large or giant breed dog can inflict devastating damage in seconds.
> 
> Having a dog with a head bigger than yours comes with responsibility. While I don't think Hank did anything wrong here, an out of control CC can inflict real damage. Please consider that before getting into these large, protection type breeds.


You are 100% correct. Cane Corso is not a breed for the casual dog owner. I work with a guy that lives in a small house near Chicago who got a Cane Corso puppy for his daughter. He also has a large male GSD. I told him he was nuts as his dogs basically get a 20 minute walk twice a day and have a small yard; not nearly enough for a large Cane Corso & GSD. Well, things did not go well once the CC grew older. The CC attacked the GSD on a walk and then bite both of my coworkers kids. That night, the CC was on the couch and his son moved it, the dog jumped up and bite his son on the neck. His other son was able to grab the dog and get it to let go, but really horrible situation. I told him to put the dog down, but instead he took the dog to Animal Control (you know, so another family can adopt it). I have an aggressive female GSD that I adopted. Ragnar does not like other dogs; period. Well, neighbors adopted a little dog that would run like the wind. The dog got loose and came running over to my house and ran inside the fence (3/4 acre fenced in yard); we were able to grab Ragnar and hold her as the little dog ran circles around us. We put Ragnar in the house and the neighbor chased her dog out of our yard, but it could have been a DEADLY situation. Sorry about your bad day. It really is sad for the little doggy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RAGNARS MOMMA said:


> You are 100% correct. Cane Corso is not a breed for the casual dog owner. I work with a guy that lives in a small house near Chicago who got a Cane Corso puppy for his daughter. He also has a large male GSD. I told him he was nuts as his dogs basically get a 20 minute walk twice a day and have a small yard; not nearly enough for a large Cane Corso & GSD. Well, things did not go well once the CC grew older. The CC attacked the GSD on a walk and then bite both of my coworkers kids. That night, the CC was on the couch and his son moved it, the dog jumped up and bite his son on the neck. His other son was able to grab the dog and get it to let go, but really horrible situation. I told him to put the dog down, but instead he took the dog to Animal Control (you know, so another family can adopt it). I have an aggressive female GSD that I adopted. Ragnar does not like other dogs; period. Well, neighbors adopted a little dog that would run like the wind. The dog got loose and came running over to my house and ran inside the fence (3/4 acre fenced in yard); we were able to grab Ragnar and hold her as the little dog ran circles around us. We put Ragnar in the house and the neighbor chased her dog out of our yard, but it could have been a DEADLY situation. Sorry about your bad day. It really is sad for the little doggy.


Dog aggression and people aggression are totally different. EXCEPT kids (anyone really) can be bitten during or in the aftermath of a dog fight. It can take days for the hormone levels to get back to normal after a bad dog fight. This is important for all of us to remember. Don't take a dog that was in a major fight and fling him back inside with your kids, or even leave them hours or even a day or two later unprotected. I have been bitten during fights, never after a fight was over. But, I won't put a bitch in with another dog or bitch if she were fighting with any other dog. She needs a few days to get back to normal. They're not robots. 

Some dogs have loose screws. Some dogs have both dog aggression and people aggression. But they are two different things. In fact, I have never had a dog that would attack dogs within my pack show aggression toward dogs outside of the pack. I think those are different too. I think dogs in general are more territorial and more likely to aggress toward outside dogs. And bitches tend to be more protective of home and family, and more likely to attack another bitch when she is getting attention from the favorite human, which is like, resource guarding. Because dogs outside of the pack are not viewed as a threat for the owner's attention critters who display inter-pack aggression usually do not. 

Yeah, I don't people should rehome aggressive dogs. I think if you raised a dog from a pup, and it is displaying serious aggression, you should do your duty and have the animal put down, unless you know someone who has a proven track record with aggressive dogs, is willing and able to take on the dog with full disclosure. This makes it next to impossible to rehome an aggressive dog, and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. They tell us so many shelter dogs are put down soley for lack of space, I don't see us wasting resources on an animal whose family is unwilling to deal with the problem they may have helped to create. And, maybe if we knew we had to put one down for aggression, picking the next dog, training him, exercising, managing, etc, or not getting another dog at all may be better thought out. Maybe we would try harder to resolve problems before they got so bad. Too often folks are quick to blame genetics or a bad experience. I'd think it would be hard to do that when the consequences are so serious.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

RAGNARS MOMMA said:


> You are 100% correct. Cane Corso is not a breed for the casual dog owner. I work with a guy that lives in a small house near Chicago who got a Cane Corso puppy for his daughter. He also has a large male GSD. I told him he was nuts as his dogs basically get a 20 minute walk twice a day and have a small yard; not nearly enough for a large Cane Corso & GSD. Well, things did not go well once the CC grew older. The CC attacked the GSD on a walk and then bite both of my coworkers kids. That night, the CC was on the couch and his son moved it, the dog jumped up and bite his son on the neck. His other son was able to grab the dog and get it to let go, but really horrible situation. I told him to put the dog down, but instead he took the dog to Animal Control (you know, so another family can adopt it). I have an aggressive female GSD that I adopted. Ragnar does not like other dogs; period. Well, neighbors adopted a little dog that would run like the wind. The dog got loose and came running over to my house and ran inside the fence (3/4 acre fenced in yard); we were able to grab Ragnar and hold her as the little dog ran circles around us. We put Ragnar in the house and the neighbor chased her dog out of our yard, but it could have been a DEADLY situation. Sorry about your bad day. It really is sad for the little doggy.


Many breeds that were designed to fight things are hard to control when they want something more than they want to obey.

In a nutshell, everything that makes a dog good at fighting, such as strength, size, drive, pain tolerance, reacting to fear with violence, makes them hard to train and even harder to proof. Most of these breeds don't have the prey drive to get a lot of quality reps in. They will fight through a lot to do what they want or feel that they need to do.

Herders are a nice blend of fight and handler orientation. Many other breeds, not so much. 

One reason you don't see breeds like Corso, Presa, Rott, doing police work is lack of balance. It just takes so much continual training to keep control. They are physically far better quipped to fight a man than the herders, but they lack the mental clarity and balance to remain clear headed and under control. 

All this to say that owning a potentially dangerous dog breed can be more challenging than good obedience. A very soft dog, like Hank, can be very different under stress.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Too late to edit my last post, but I was talking about putting an animal down for human aggression, not for canine aggression. Rehoming a dog to a family with no other pets, with full disclosure, that everyone realizes that this dog is not a dog-park dog, this dog needs to be on-leash, this dog can't meet and greet, and people should be able to manage their dog, even a dog aggressive dog. The problem is managing other people's dogs -- that is where accidents happen. People with easy dogs, with friendly dogs, with dog park dogs, sometimes never think that your dog might literally kill them if they get too close. We could go extreme and muzzle a dog like that when we are in public. We can have just the one dog out at a time. And we can still have an accident and when that happens, it isn't going to be pretty. So yes, lots of people aren't going to own a formidable dog of that type and that's ok too. 

In some places, some breeds and types of breeds must be muzzled in public. BSL may have gotten less in recent years, but that was how it was in Mentor, Ohio, which is near where I live. I think it is a hard sell, to suggest that everyone with a formidable dog muzzle their animals to protect from harm, animals whose owners are irresponsible, or even from accidents that may happen. One thing that type of legislation does though, is that if your dog, even on leash, is approached by another dog and reacts badly, the on-leash dog's owner might be fined or worse the court might order the dog put down, because both owners would be breaking the law, and then they just look at the damage, they deem the big/formidable dog dangerous, and they can then require special housing and insurance for the dog, or they can simply order the animal destroyed. I think this is why BSL has to be fought even if you don't have the breeds in question. 

I don't think animals should be put down for aggression against other animals. If we live with animals, then we have to understand that this is a possibility and do our best to prevent it from happening. Just because we think that all of our dogs should live together in a loving pack and always get along, doesn't mean we should kill one because it can't live in that situation. We adjust or we rehome a dog or bitch that just can't live in that situation, but we don't kill the dog. And if a dog attacks a dog outside of our pack, we take more precautions with the dog, but we shouldn't kill them. And I think that courts that do that for dog-dog aggression are wrong. Just an opinion.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

David Winners said:


> Many breeds that were designed to fight things are hard to control when they want something more than they want to obey.
> 
> In a nutshell, everything that makes a dog good at fighting, such as strength, size, drive, pain tolerance, reacting to fear with violence, makes them hard to train and even harder to proof. Most of these breeds don't have the prey drive to get a lot of quality reps in. They will fight through a lot to do what they want or feel that they need to do.
> 
> ...


At risk of getting off-topic, this has been a very interesting thread about this stuff, as DNA showed Agis is part bullmastiff and English mastiff (as well as Lab and Great Pyrenees) (SURPRISE!). I think the Lab tempers a lot of this, but I can see some of Agis in what you wrote. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about molossus dogs!


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## RAGNARS MOMMA (Oct 15, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Many breeds that were designed to fight things are hard to control when they want something more than they want to obey.
> 
> In a nutshell, everything that makes a dog good at fighting, such as strength, size, drive, pain tolerance, reacting to fear with violence, makes them hard to train and even harder to proof. Most of these breeds don't have the prey drive to get a lot of quality reps in. They will fight through a lot to do what they want or feel that they need to do.
> 
> ...


David,
You are a very educated dog owner. Kudos to you. On a side note of this conversation; I previously had the great fortune of owning a KARELIAN bear dog. Ted was the most intelligent dog I have ever owned ( I have had 3 GSD to date). He was a gentle family dog but fierce protector. His protective instincts were incredible. He would not back down on any perceived threats (took a raccoon in our yard down) and would run the woods in Northern Wisconsin without fear. He was muscular and solid, over 100 pounds. We never had any "people aggression" from him. Yet in the wild, he was ferocious. This is a trait that was bred intentionally. Karelians are used to fend off bears and even though he was not raised where bears live; when in the North Woods, he would hunt for them. All goes to say, the traits that a dog was bred to have (like fighting dogs) are always present. If you raise a sheep dog in an apartment in the city and take it to a sheep farm when its 5, it will try to herd the sheep. Have a great day.


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## RAGNARS MOMMA (Oct 15, 2020)

RAGNARS MOMMA said:


> David,
> You are a very educated dog owner. Kudos to you. On a side note of this conversation; I previously had the great fortune of owning a KARELIAN bear dog. Ted was the most intelligent dog I have ever owned ( I have had 3 GSD to date). He was a gentle family dog but fierce protector. His protective instincts were incredible. He would not back down on any perceived threats (took a raccoon in our yard down) and would run the woods in Northern Wisconsin without fear. He was muscular and solid, over 100 pounds. We never had any "people aggression" from him. Yet in the wild, he was ferocious. This is a trait that was bred intentionally. Karelians are used to fend off bears and even though he was not raised where bears live; when in the North Woods, he would hunt for them. All goes to say, the traits that a dog was bred to have (like fighting dogs) are always present. If you raise a sheep dog in an apartment in the city and take it to a sheep farm when its 5, it will try to herd the sheep. Have a great day.





RAGNARS MOMMA said:


> David,
> You are a very educated dog owner. Kudos to you. On a side note of this conversation; I previously had the great fortune of owning a KARELIAN bear dog. Ted was the most intelligent dog I have ever owned ( I have had 3 GSD to date). He was a gentle family dog but fierce protector. His protective instincts were incredible. He would not back down on any perceived threats (took a raccoon in our yard down) and would run the woods in Northern Wisconsin without fear. He was muscular and solid, over 100 pounds. We never had any "people aggression" from him. Yet in the wild, he was ferocious. This is a trait that was bred intentionally. Karelians are used to fend off bears and even though he was not raised where bears live; when in the North Woods, he would hunt for them. All goes to say, the traits that a dog was bred to have (like fighting dogs) are always present. If you raise a sheep dog in an apartment in the city and take it to a sheep farm when its 5, it will try to herd the sheep. Have a great day.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> One reason you don't see breeds like Corso, Presa, Rott, doing police work is lack of balance. It just takes so much continual training to keep control. They are physically far better quipped to fight a man than the herders, but they lack the mental clarity and balance to remain clear headed and under control.


I'm thinking that a general lack of endurance conditioning does in the CC and Rottie for a lot of police work. May be OK for crowd control but I think they'd be harder to call off and not hardy/focused enough for SAR. The Rotties I had didn't need a tremendous amount of exercise.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

RAGNARS MOMMA said:


> David,
> You are a very educated dog owner. Kudos to you. On a side note of this conversation; I previously had the great fortune of owning a KARELIAN bear dog. Ted was the most intelligent dog I have ever owned ( I have had 3 GSD to date). He was a gentle family dog but fierce protector. His protective instincts were incredible. He would not back down on any perceived threats (took a raccoon in our yard down) and would run the woods in Northern Wisconsin without fear. *He was muscular and solid, over 100 pounds*. We never had any "people aggression" from him. Yet in the wild, he was ferocious. This is a trait that was bred intentionally. Karelians are used to fend off bears and even though he was not raised where bears live; when in the North Woods, he would hunt for them. All goes to say, the traits that a dog was bred to have (like fighting dogs) are always present. If you raise a sheep dog in an apartment in the city and take it to a sheep farm when its 5, it will try to herd the sheep. Have a great day.


Whoa, that's a big Karelian, they are normally a mid sized but athletic dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> One reason you don't see breeds like Corso, Presa, Rott, doing police work is lack of balance. It just takes so much continual training to keep control. They are physically far better quipped to fight a man than the herders, but they lack the mental clarity and balance to remain clear headed and under control.
> 
> All this to say that owning a potentially dangerous dog breed can be more challenging than good obedience. A very soft dog, like Hank, can be very different under stress.


I agree with what you said and in the meantime my first thought was, "Why do people have these dogs, also why cutting off ears and tail before their true lives started even?"


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## RAGNARS MOMMA (Oct 15, 2020)

WNGD said:


> Whoa, that's a big Karelian, they are normally a mid sized but athletic dog.


This pic was later in Ted's life. He was a solid 100 pounds though. He had a very thick hind end and thick curved tail. His ears were down in this pic, but mostly were up. People complimented me on him constantly. He was so beautiful amazing dog. I was given Ted by a friend who could not care for him and I believe he came from a Kennel in Michigan. I cannot afford to purchase another Karelian, so I have adopted GS since having him. Also, I only weighed about 100 pounds then myself...good ole days.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I agree with what you said and in the meantime my first thought was, "Why do people have these dogs, also why cutting off ears and tail before their true lives started even?"


I love these breeds and I don't blame Hank for defending himself. He's a wonderful dog, perfectly fine in crowds of people and great with other dogs.

I guess I don't understand. Owning any dog entails a certain degree of responsibility. Some more than others. You own a GSD. That's far more dangerous than a tea cup poodle. Why would you take the risk?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I know it's a matter of taste. Just sharing my thoughts. Not based on anything else🤷.


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## gtaroger (Aug 4, 2015)

I think it all goes back to responsibility.I have only been bitten once in my life by someones dog.I was delivering a box to a arts studio One of the customers dog ran up from the rear and bit my calf. The lady didn't have her dog on a leash.I told the lady to leash her dog,she kept saying don't worry he won't bit. The dog kept circling me and trying to get another shot at my back.Finally I told the lady if she didn't leash it I would punt it like foot ball.After she put her dog on a leash, I asked her if her dog had all it's shots.She informed me that it was up to date on all it's shots.I gave her my phone number for my terminal managers office. She promised she would call the next day and give my boss all the information.Next day ,no call.My boss called her the next day, she said she didn't have to give him the information.My boss told her he was going to call the police in her town and file a complaint. He told her they would pick her dog up and quarantine her dog for 10 days,and she would get a ticket for not having her dog on leash causing his employee to be bitten.He also told her that she was liable for a cival lawsuit from his employee.She drove the records over that day.The whole event was caused by a person who thought they were special and didn't have to be responsible for their dogs actions or their own.If you have a aggressive dog you have to take exrta measures to contain the dog.24-7


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## Attaboy (Dec 9, 2021)

There are some people with this nincompoop idea that if you need tools such as a prong collar to manage a dog then you have no business owning a dog. Some of these fruitcakes even think any collar is a no no. They believe all dogs should just be able to run around free with no training other than a hotdog and a hug.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Attaboy said:


> There are some people with this nincompoop idea that if you need tools such as a prong collar to manage a dog then you have no business owning a dog. Some of these fruitcakes even think any collar is a no no. They believe all dogs should just be able to run around free with no training other than a hotdog and a hug.


I don't think that any owner in this situation believed any of these things. Both my dogs had prong collars and backups. I had 2 leashes with me. The other dog was released by accident. He carries a leash with him. I have seen it in the past.

I agree that there are some with strong feelings against corrections and equipment.


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## K9SHOUSE (Jun 8, 2003)

wolfy dog said:


> I agree with what you said and in the meantime my first thought was, "Why do people have these dogs, also why cutting off ears and tail before their true lives started even?"


As an owner of a Central Asian Shepherd (ancient molosser guarding breed) with docked ears and tail, breeders do it because there are still producing dogs that do jobs they were bred for. Docking is done very early before they can be evaluated ( 2 weeks old I think when neurosensory/pain feedback is less developed and yes in the developed world meds are used). In Storm's litter 5 of 8 went to working farms to guard sheep/goats from coyotes and wolves. One later died doing this job. We got Storm because her protection drive was so strong for children/home that the breeders held her till we were lucky to find her and fit the bill ( kids 5 and 3). Besides guarding the flock, the dogs are used to guard the tents within the nomadic tribes of Asia and watch over the children when adults need to leave the tents.

So docking is done to protect the dog if they need to engage physically with a threat. GSDs may wag their tail or carry it out when they are agitated. My breed raises her stubby tail up when giving warning barks, then her tail is tucked lower (blending into her rear) when attacking so it is less visible to grab/injure. Docking the ears prevents grabbing and ripping injuries and infection. Not everyone in the world has access to a veterinarian or antibiotics quickly.

As far as this thread, people need to be responsible by knowing their personal dog and breed characteristics. I know that Storm will always protect my children (and their friends) so I am/was always vigilant of dogs rushing up to them and her blocking/ warning the dog even though she has relaxed more since they are 13 and 15 years. But like the original poster, we can't control others' dogs and unfortunately things happen. Storm has attacked/defended 2 dogs in the past -pinned then released on command a rambunctious Golden at a baseball game years ago and about a year ago a smaller terrier mix dog that rushed unleashed at her, my son, myself, and Wrigley (6 months). That one she grabbed in the middle, shook and threw, who then made the wise choice to run away with small puncture wounds. Given this is a dog that can crush small cattle bones and has killed multiple squirrels in the backyard, I just lucked out and it easily could have been the same as the original poster.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

They were bred, and still are, to have a serious job to do and belong there, IMO. I feel they are less domesticated than our pampered GSDs. I can see why they are cropped and docked to protect themselves from predators in their original jobs. My issue is that these practices have now become the breed standard and are used to justify these mutilations. It is comical how the AKC show commentators defend these looks. Cropped ears to prevent an attacker getting hold of the dog: how about the Boerboel and Rottweiler? They don't need protection by being cropped?
People are importing more and more giant protection breeds while the good old Pit had been demonized. Not trying to start the Pit issue; is just an example.
Ok, back to the morning coffee. My Canis Domesticas are content by lying next to me while the rain pours outside. Have a good weekend everyone!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

K9SHOUSE said:


> Docking is done very early before they can be evaluated ( 2 weeks old I think when neurosensory/pain feedback is less developed and yes in the developed world meds are used).


even younger, 3 days is ideal… there is a noticeable difference in discomfort by as little as day 5. the vet that i used to work for wouldn’t do it beyond that point and depending on the technique used, meds typically aren’t necessary.


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## K9SHOUSE (Jun 8, 2003)

Thanks Fodder for clarifying. Trying to remember a conversation from 10 years ago with the breeder.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Yes, the breed standard is what is in place to preserve the breed (that’s a whole different topic). If you have a respected breeding program, you adhere to the breed standard. If you want to attend conformation shows, again, you must adhere to the breed standard. Most breed clubs regularly discuss if changes should be made to the standard, the changes are driven by the breed clubs. Let me tell you that in a breed where there is docking, new changes to allow a natural tail goes unnoticed by the judges, they simply will not place a dog that does not conform to the original standard. Then throw in all the breeders who breed for “type”, an entire ring of dogs that no longer adhere to the breed standard but one goes on to win prestigious awards. It’s not easy to navigate the show dog world.
I did a repeat breeding of my Schipperke, several show homes wanted puppies from this litter. I was terrified and emotionally stressed at the thought of docking their little tails. The day came, tails banded and not one squeak from the pups. They didn’t squirm, cry, nothing. I was sooooooo relieved. Then came dew claws, I cried. Katie’s breeder thought I was crazy. I wouldn’t let her do the smallest pup at 2oz. I will NEVER have dew claws removed again, NEVER!!
Puppies screamed, I cried and felt immense guilt.
As for the tails, they fell off 3 days later, perfectly healed.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Bad day.


Wow that's a "hard place and a rock" situation. It sounds like you could have had two other sets of hands there, with everyone grabbing a dog at the same time, and it still would not have made a difference. Sorry for everyone involved. If I understand correctly, neither of your dogs redirected toward a human, so there's at least that positive.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I've owned one GSD that I knew would protect for real. It happened 3 different times.

One time, my husband took her out for an on leash walk, and the neighbour's Jack Russel came tearing down the street at us. At first, my husband thought he just wanted to say 'hello' but as he got closer, he saw his teeth were bared. Roger put Tasha into a sit, and the JRT jumped for her throat. She knocked him down, pinned him with a paw, and bit him on the rump. He ran back home, yelping in distress.

Fortunately, the bite was minor, and all the owner did was ask if she was up to date on her rabies shot.

No idea how she was bred - my room mate found her in Scarborough, a Toronto suburb, after someone dumped her. A breeder from Germany said she looked like the police dogs he'd worked with after the war. Despite her tall ears (the husband called her 'bat lady'!) she did not have the build of an American show line.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Rionel said:


> Wow that's a "hard place and a rock" situation. It sounds like you could have had two other sets of hands there, with everyone grabbing a dog at the same time, and it still would not have made a difference. Sorry for everyone involved. If I understand correctly, neither of your dogs redirected toward a human, so there's at least that positive.


No redirection. That could have been real bad, particularly if my dogs locked up with each other.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

David Winners said:


> No redirection. That could have been real bad, particularly if my dogs locked up with each other.


Hadn't even considered your two dogs locking up, but OH YEAH, that would have been.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> One time, my husband took her out for an on leash walk, and the neighbour's Jack Russel came tearing down the street at us.


Ya know, this has been the hardest part of us owning our GS. So many of our neighbors allow their dogs (big and small) to run in the streets; or, if they have underground fences, they don't always maintain the collars, and the dogs run straight out of their yards to harrass walkers and dogs. I've had so many dogs try to attack my GS that I very seldom walk her in our neighborhood now. I actually can depend more on strangers leashing their dogs at parks than my neighbors. lol. I really hate seeing something like David's experience.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Rionel said:


> Ya know, this has been the hardest part of us owning our GS. So many of our neighbors allow their dogs (big and small) to run in the streets; or, if they have underground fences, they don't always maintain the collars, and the dogs run straight out of their yards to harrass walkers and dogs. I've had so many dogs try to attack my GS that I very seldom walk her in our neighborhood now. I actually can depend more on strangers leashing their dogs at parks than my neighbors. lol. I really hate seeing something like David's experience.


-Big voice
-Big stick
-Big parry
-Big smack

....in that order


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Maybe bear spray, too, but that can backfire if the dog has already attacked yours.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> Maybe bear spray, too, but that can backfire if the dog has already attacked yours.


I just bought some for my daughter (aggressive dog spray) but want it for her for coyotes or 2 legged predators as she runs in the woods. I'll stick with my stick lol


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