# My GSD attacked my small dog



## rachaeldoras

Earlier today my 2.5 year old gsd attacked my 5 year old shorkie she grabbed her and started to do the kill shake thank God we were where we could hear the yelps and we're home.... I'm concerned because this is the first time she has shaken her but not gone for her hackles up normally it's just the nose push and nip and then done but even after my hubby grabbed our little dog she continued to go for her and she didn't want to let go initially what concerns me is i have a 3 year old and 5 month old and she growls whenever they get to close and they back off but of she's trying to kill a dog she's known her whole life what can she do to my kids and she's not our first gsd she's our 5th and we have never had any issues with any of the others.... I'm very concerned the next time we won't be home and something is going to happen...we live with my in laws and it is their dog and they aren't wanting to give her up and wanting to keep her separated from the other but that's not always going to be the case any advice?


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## DutchKarin

Given what happened here, would you really rely on the internet for advice? With small children? Ummm... you need to hire a good trainer/behaviorist to assess the situation first hand before someone or a dog gets hurt. Until then you keep the two dogs separated, no excuses. Or move out. And you never let the GSD near the children unless she is leashed and very closely under your control. You should read about female/female aggression in dogs. 

You really better get serious here.


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## rachaeldoras

I have seeked training advice with this all first started I'm sorry that I'm looking for help from people with experience versus multiple trainers who said to put her down when she had yet to do something like this I apologize if I've some how offended you with seeking help my bad for that also my children are not allowed around her and we can't move out as there are personal reasons as to why and wow I read thru some post and every seemed helpful but of course I get the one person who decides to be rude about it thanks for your unneeded advice but I have already figured out what you stated a while ago


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## Sabis mom

Keep the dogs separate and keep the GSD away from your children. I get personal reasons but it is still up to you to keep your children safe. 
Is the GSD yours or does she belong to the in laws?


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## rachaeldoras

She belongs to my in laws and they are kept away from her and the little dog is separated my Fear is they aren't understanding how bug of and issue this truly is I've seen a gsd that got ahold of a small dog and didn't stop going for her till she killed her.... they kept her kennel ed and the little dog out the gsd escaped and we for the kill fast I've seen it happen and I've told them about this the small dog is sleeping in our room and stays with me or my mother in law thru out the day my 3 year was outback playing with all 3 dogs which was had been doing all day long nothing provoked it she went go for her then the small dog went to fight back and the gsd grabbed her she's not your typical breeding either like the other gsd I have had she's smaller and supposedly czech breeding


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## Sabis mom

How many dogs are in the house? And who owns the others?

Listen, I'm about 2 days away from homeless, I get tough times. You may need to stay with your in laws, but that doesn't mean that they get to run your life. Your children need to be kept away from the dog. Period. You don't need to make a scene about it, you simply remove them. If the other dog is yours, same rules apply. If it isn't, frankly, it's none of your business.


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## Jax08

rachaeldoras said:


> Earlier today my 2.5 year old gsd attacked my 5 year old shorkie she grabbed her and started to do the kill shake ..... initially what concerns me is i have a 3 year old and 5 month old and she growls whenever they get to close and they back off ...we live with my in laws and it is their dog and they aren't wanting to give her up and wanting to keep her separated from the other but that's not always going to be the case any advice?


First, get professional help. IME, there isn't a "fix" to the dog aggression. The dog has reached maturity is who she is. The main thing is management. Separation. And you ALL have to be on top of your game! This is crate and rotate and close doors.



rachaeldoras said:


> I have seeked training advice with this all first started I'm sorry that I'm looking for help from people with experience versus multiple trainers who said to put her down


Put her down for what? For growling at the kids? So, every time she growls and the kids back off she gains confidence. You really need a professional trainer for this. You need someone who has stellar timing for a correction and a reward for doing the right thing. I wouldn't let her around the kids at this time.

What area do you live? Maybe someone knows of a good trainer for you?


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## dogma13

OP, nobody is trying to be rude.Just trying to express this is a serious problem that can't be solved by internet advice.

The dog should not be around the kids or other dogs.
You need a hands on trainer to teach you the management skills you need.

ASAP!


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## newlie

Sabis mom said:


> How many dogs are in the house? And who owns the others?
> 
> Listen, I'm about 2 days away from homeless, I get tough times. You may need to stay with your in laws, but that doesn't mean that they get to run your life. Your children need to be kept away from the dog. Period. You don't need to make a scene about it, you simply remove them. If the other dog is yours, same rules apply. If it isn't, frankly, it's none of your business.


Sabi, is there anything we can do to help?


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## Twyla

I can understand the frustration of having multiple trainers saying pts. I dealt with that on Woolf. I finally found one who was willing to work with us and do more then go for the quick fix. With that being said, my situation is different then yours; I do not have small children in the house all the time. You can search back through previous threads on the steps I take for when my grandson is here visiting. _EVERYONE_ is on board with the program and understands the ramifications if the ball is dropped.

Your post reads that this is your in-laws dog. You have the Yorkie. As others have said - 100% management; crate and rotate. Trainer with verifiable experience with aggressive dogs brought in. The dog is growling at your kids - take it for it is; a warning. Keep your kids separated from the dog. 

As something to think about; consider the interaction between the 2 dogs. Is it possible there may have been some stink eye, other snarky behavior from the Yorkie? Add on top of that 2 females.

You refused the suggestion before but - your kids safety is the priority. It may be if some kind of management agreement can't be hashed out with the in-laws you may have to consider relocating regardless of the circumstances.


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## selzer

What's a shorkie? 

Female/female aggression can be fatal especially when one dog is much smaller than the other. 

Dog aggression does not equal human aggression.

Unfortunately, dogs can have both. I wonder if the other dog is present when the growls happen toward the children. Even if it is straight dog aggression -- same sex aggression, kids do get hurt when they try to stop Hildaguard from killing Pietsy -- and, that's not the dog's fault, either of theirs. We, the humans have to manage the animals that we have living with us. 

Some do not do well with dogs of the same sex. GSDs are one of the breeds that tend toward SSA. If it happens, you cannot leave the two dogs alone together, ever, because it may mean the end for one of them, and then the other is viewed as a murderer. 

It sounds like the current situation has the dog living in a constant state of agitation. If the shorkie is yours, than, until you can move out, I think you need to keep it in your room or out and about (out of the house) with you. You have to protect your children of course. 

If you are living with your parents, I can't see how you have money for a trainer/behaviorist for their dog. I don't know how you can possibly keep their dog locked up in their home. And you have kids at stake. If removing the small dog would remove the state of agitation, I would suggest finding a foster or rehoming the dog. 

Sometimes when shtuff happens, we have to make some really tough choices. I think you have to reevaluate where you are living. Maybe you can get a basement apartment, move into a trailer or something. I think you need to maybe get someone to help you evaluate your options -- when we are in water over our head, we might not be able to see clearly the things that we might be able to use that are there to get us to the shore. I get it that you have two little kids, but also two adults, so maybe living with parents now just isn't working out.


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## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> What's a shorkie?


I do believe it's one of those annoying, cutsie names for a stupidly overpriced mutt. My guess would be a Shih Tzu/Yorkie. I simply cannot see that cross being of benefit to either breed.


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## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> I do believe it's one of those annoying, cutsie names for a stupidly overpriced mutt. My guess would be a Shih Tzu/Yorkie. I simply cannot see that cross being of benefit to either breed.


Thanks, I was trying to gauge the size and the typical demeanor of the mix. I mean a lot of toy dogs, and small dogs have all the body language of king of the mountain type dogs. Of course bitches really do not need a reason not to like each other.


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## pets4life

This isn't as uncommon as you think, a lot of gsd's will do this to small dogs and have. You can't expect to put your gsd with prey sized animals and expect them to play nice. The small dog is like a rabbit sized animal to her and often they are bossy. The gsd might take it for alil bit but only so much one day it flips out and usually does what happened above. No training is going to fix that. You need to keep your dog away from certain dogs. Some dogs do not match.


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## pets4life

I see two kinds of small dogs a lot

ones try to push big dogs around = usually ends bad with gsds


ones seem to fall in love with big dogs like high rank gsds = These ones for some reason gsds adore also and treat like their own puppy. 

SO it can go both ways. I have heard of so many really bad outcomes but then seen some nice outcomes. It depends on the small dogs nature and the gsds nature usually. 

Selezer after working for a vet I learned female on neutered males can be just as lethal. Some females will look at a neautered male just as she looks at another female and kill him. We had 2 dogs come in close to death one male shepherd was attacked by a female shepherd. One Male rottie was attacked by a female Mastiff. I asked around more about that and they said some female dogs will see a neutered male the same as she sees a female dog. That was the issue i had with my bitch. Her aggression was worse with males that had been fixed. She was not that bad with females but males it got really bad. I thought mine was a lesbian though. 
My female who thinks shes the queen of the world loves some small dogs. But others she sees and treats as prey with no respect usually Jack russel/paddy terrriers and hunting type small dogs she will try to pounce on like a cat freaking them out. Thats why i dont ever let her around them. But pugs she usually likes and french bulldogs same.


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## selzer

Interesting. 

I have Cujo2 in with Hepzibah. She is intact, he is altered. When she is in heat, he does what intact dogs do. A lot. He is bigger than her. But she seems to really like him anyway. They lie together and eat, and I never hear any snarkiness between them. 

Babs (intact female) does not like Cujo2. I don't know if she would kill him, getting old for that, but she might attack him. Too much snarkiness between the two of them to ignore.

I currently have a lot of bitches -- all but 1 intact, and 3 dogs -- 2 intact. I am trying to understand the female-female thing. As close as I can come to it, is that every bitch is an individual, and they can ALL be different.


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## Hineni7

Selzer said: .. . I am trying to understand the female-female thing. As close as I can come to it, is that every bitch is an individual, and they can ALL be different.

Understand that.. I've had mother with daughter, only one incident.. 3 females all lose with my neutered male, some intact some not (until they were all fixed) and no fights.. Then when I was gone on a job 2 got into a fight.. But not when I was there.. At one point we had 4 females (various points all were fixed but other points where some were some weren't) and 2 neuter males and an occasional scuffle between females but nothing serious or consistent... 

Makes you wonder how/why they do or don't get along, and a scuffle opposed to an out and out brawl... One of the females never got into fights, ever and she wasn't low man either, but, she was part wolf (rescue) and I wonder if her language skills were better... Huh.. You have alot of bitches so if you come up with any insights, I want to hear about them  I've often wondered why girls get so grumpy with each other after having been besties for years..


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## selzer

Hineni7 said:


> Selzer said: .. . I am trying to understand the female-female thing. As close as I can come to it, is that every bitch is an individual, and they can ALL be different.
> 
> Understand that.. I've had mother with daughter, only one incident.. 3 females all lose with my neutered male, some intact some not (until they were all fixed) and no fights.. Then when I was gone on a job 2 got into a fight.. But not when I was there.. At one point we had 4 females (various points all were fixed but other points where some were some weren't) and 2 neuter males and an occasional scuffle between females but nothing serious or consistent...
> 
> Makes you wonder how/why they do or don't get along, and a scuffle opposed to an out and out brawl... One of the females never got into fights, ever and she wasn't low man either, but, she was part wolf (rescue) and I wonder if her language skills were better... Huh.. You have alot of bitches so if you come up with any insights, I want to hear about them  I've often wondered why girls get so grumpy with each other after having been besties for years..


I am making the study of bitches my life's work. :smile2:


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## Hineni7

Lol!!


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## MineAreWorkingline

pets4life said:


> I see two kinds of small dogs a lot
> 
> ones try to push big dogs around = usually ends bad with gsds
> 
> 
> ones seem to fall in love with big dogs like high rank gsds = These ones for some reason gsds adore also and treat like their own puppy.
> 
> SO it can go both ways. I have heard of so many really bad outcomes but then seen some nice outcomes. It depends on the small dogs nature and the gsds nature usually.
> 
> Selezer after working for a vet I learned female on neutered males can be just as lethal. Some females will look at a neautered male just as she looks at another female and kill him. We had 2 dogs come in close to death one male shepherd was attacked by a female shepherd. One Male rottie was attacked by a female Mastiff. I asked around more about that and they said some female dogs will see a neutered male the same as she sees a female dog. That was the issue i had with my bitch. Her aggression was worse with males that had been fixed. She was not that bad with females but males it got really bad. I thought mine was a lesbian though.
> My female who thinks shes the queen of the world loves some small dogs. But others she sees and treats as prey with no respect usually Jack russel/paddy terrriers and hunting type small dogs she will try to pounce on like a cat freaking them out. Thats why i dont ever let her around them. But pugs she usually likes and french bulldogs same.


I was always told that the totem pole has intact males on top, followed by intact females, neutered males were next, and spayed females were bottom of the pile. Of course it isn't always that simplistic, but that is the basic gist.


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## Hineni7

^^Me too.. When I think of a wolf hierarchy, there is an alpha male and alpha female for breeding and leadership purposes.. Makes me wonder how much gender fighting for the lower ranks occurs...? If the lead male dies, the lead female continues to be boss and leads - unless she finds another mate which isn't as common as one would think (as far as I've learned)... The lower ranks have to go solo to move up in rank (or alpha dies and by default a dominant assumes the role, again, not often)... Curious....


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## selzer

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of packs are actually directed by a dominant bitch over a dominant dog. The dog generally allows anything when it comes to the bitch. Any bitch. But a dominant female makes everyone stay in line. 

I think fighting occurs in nature more so when you have two females or two males close in power with no clear dominant personality for them to follow. When you have an aggressive bullying leader, or a weak leader, there is contention in the ranks. Yes, young pairs of strong personalities will break off and have pups and begin a pack of their own. It is not like horses where there are a load of mares, some foals and yearlings, and the young males are encouraged to LEAVE. A wolf/dog pack uses the various personalities. The strong ones lead the pack in hunting and the weaker ones will babysit pups. Canines that don't fit the structure are killed or driven away. But there cannot be constant fighting. A good leader is recognized by their posture not how much he or she fights. Because fighting causes injury, and injury means inability to hunt and kill, and that means death. 

Domestic packs with constant food sourced in abundance, like in a zoo, are going to develop a different set of rules to function under, because canines biggest attribute is their ability to adapt. Of course they adapt to being captive in a pack with limited space and abundant food. But it also could mean more fighting, it could mean a lot of instinctive behaviors that we read in them, are not natural, but devised by the situation they are in.


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## pets4life

selzer said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I have Cujo2 in with Hepzibah. She is intact, he is altered. When she is in heat, he does what intact dogs do. A lot. He is bigger than her. But she seems to really like him anyway. They lie together and eat, and I never hear any snarkiness between them.
> 
> Babs (intact female) does not like Cujo2. I don't know if she would kill him, getting old for that, but she might attack him. Too much snarkiness between the two of them to ignore.
> 
> I currently have a lot of bitches -- all but 1 intact, and 3 dogs -- 2 intact. I am trying to understand the female-female thing. As close as I can come to it, is that every bitch is an individual, and they can ALL be different.



I find intact bitches kinda get worse in aggression while intact males soften up big time from my own personal experience of my dogs

my male became totol softy after altering him like he just is weaker than my female in every way. My female became more butch after fixing her. lol My female can bond to another female who defers to her but not a female who thinks shes above her. SHe likes some males other breeds usually she likes sled dog types. But she cannot mix with any gsd male or female ever. She usually does not mix with dobies either. BUt labs, goldens, poodles, all the sled dogs she usually fits right into. Its just dobies, gsds SPECIALLY gsds she has never gotten along with. SPecially the males. They meet and try to play she ends up scaring the crap out of them. EVEN larger more dominant males. But shes a big girl like 95 pounds vet said her weight is good though

BUt that is the wierd thing tho like she has better chance on getting along with a more submissive type female than male. A lot of people just think shes a bit of crazy. Shes czech/slovkian. BUt she adores the female husky who our fence connects with. BUT she wanted to kil the male gsd who use to live on the other side of another house fencing. Husky or sled dogs have some sort of strange amazing social skills that she understands. The husky will get lonely adult female and willl howl and my girl will join her howl with her even tho she has a doggy door and i am home right there.


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## pets4life

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I was always told that the totem pole has intact males on top, followed by intact females, neutered males were next, and spayed females were bottom of the pile. Of course it isn't always that simplistic, but that is the basic gist.



Not at all here is the total OPP when talking working gsds of course though might not be the same for other breeds or other lines of gsds

I found intact males and SPayed females first it depended on the situation if in the same house both can be top or either, if its outside i found spayed bitches above intact males in a fight because they keep going and don't stop till they are dead. The males dont fight like they they just wanna fight and seattle the females just keeping going. All else being equal of course if they come from the same type of bloodlines. Which has an effect for sure. This isnt always the case it changes from house to house and all depends. Also the alpha of each house can change. I just noticed that an alpha male will back off a female who loses it and really gets ready, no matter how bad ass he seems or looks or acts. 

Then unspayed females also up there. Altered males are way down like way way way down. Again this is not always the case an altered male could be above an unaltered male and rule a house you never know. 

BUT I AM ONLY Talking working gsds and some mals that i have seen worked with and kept for short periods of time(mal femles i look after can be witches). No oher breeds or lines it might not be the same. But ive seen so many dominat bitches put a big muscle male in his place and scare the crap out of him if she gets deadly serious. I saw one small czech bitch jump on a male 90 pounds all muscle bite his ears and put holes in them when he went after "her cat" (NOT my dogs) He had all these open holes in his ears after it was just nasty. Even if he is stronger. She was out for blood and ready to do but he not out for blood even though he was a bully. When a female looses it she usually really LOOSES IT. Something wrong with them. OR at least the WL czech/slovakian type. I have not noticed such extremes in other breeds. Except fighting breeds but in those the males seem to be worse killlers. 

The totem pole you presented sounds accurate towards pitbulls and bully breeds.

Seems tho well bred show lines that selzer has for example act the same as well bred working lines in aggression. The females can be blood thursty bitches. Also i find them in protection training much much quicker to bite without any equipment on than males.


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## selzer

LOL, "She likes sled dog types" -- that just cracked me up for some reason.


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## MineAreWorkingline

pets4life said:


> Not at all here is the total OPP when talking working gsds of course though might not be the same for other breeds or other lines of gsds
> 
> I found intact males and SPayed females first it depended on the situation if in the same house both can be top or either, if its outside i found spayed bitches above intact males in a fight because they keep going and don't stop till they are dead. The males dont fight like they they just wanna fight and seattle the females just keeping going. All else being equal of course if they come from the same type of bloodlines. Which has an effect for sure. This isnt always the case it changes from house to house and all depends. Also the alpha of each house can change. I just noticed that an alpha male will back off a female who loses it and really gets ready, no matter how bad ass he seems or looks or acts.
> 
> Then unspayed females also up there. Altered males are way down like way way way down. Again this is not always the case an altered male could be above an unaltered male and rule a house you never know.
> 
> BUT I AM ONLY Talking working gsds and some mals that i have seen worked with and kept for short periods of time(mal femles i look after can be witches). No oher breeds or lines it might not be the same. But ive seen so many dominat bitches put a big muscle male in his place and scare the crap out of him if she gets deadly serious. I saw one small czech bitch jump on a male 90 pounds all muscle bite his ears and put holes in them when he went after "her cat" (NOT my dogs) He had all these open holes in his ears after it was just nasty. Even if he is stronger. She was out for blood and ready to do but he not out for blood even though he was a bully. When a female looses it she usually really LOOSES IT. Something wrong with them. OR at least the WL czech/slovakian type. I have not noticed such extremes in other breeds. Except fighting breeds but in those the males seem to be worse killlers.
> 
> The totem pole you presented sounds accurate towards pitbulls and bully breeds.
> 
> Seems tho well bred show lines that selzer has for example act the same as well bred working lines in aggression. The females can be blood thursty bitches. Also i find them in protection training much much quicker to bite without any equipment on than males.


Well, that data was from scientific studies done years ago and I do believe it covered all animals. I would not know if it applies to Pit Bulls, as back then, Pits weren't really kept as pets so I doubt they would have been part of the study. 

I think to be more specific, it was not addressing intact female to intact female but intact female in reference to one of the other three. I also don't think it was directed at animals in the same household as there are too many other variables such as intact female to intact female aggression, jealousy, resource guarding, etc., involved. The females may be blood thirsty bitches, but it has been proven many times over that the best combination for peace in a multidog household is one male and one female.

Throughout the years I have found the study to hold true. It is no secret that I am a fan of dog parks and have had plenty of opportunity to observe dogs interact on neutral territory. 

I would like to add a personal experience of mine. Once when out with my intact male, the one that loved any and all dogs and would walk away from a fight if given half a chance, I heard people yelling. My dog was loose and by my side. We turned to see a German Shepherd, who had slipped its leash, charging us. No where to run, no where to hide, so we stood together and waited. The distraught owners were running behind and yelling to warn me how dangerous there dog was. When the GSD was just about on top of us, she slammed on the breaks and back peddled. We continued to stand calmly, and the other GSD kept circling and backing off. It turns out this other German Shepherd was an extremely dog aggressive spayed female. Her owners were in shock that she had not attacked and actually refused to approach my male. It seems that this female had never encountered an intact male before and the I assume the smell of testosterone was all it took to back her off.


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## pets4life

yEs i have visted many dog parks from all over also, not always with my dogs but friends dogs. My dog back then years ago an intact bitch would rule every dog park she would go into she would just start running the place. 

INtact males usually seem dominant over altered males but not always it depends on the breed and the temprament. There was intact lab who would always go in the park who was the most submissive dog. 

It depends on breeds how they were bred their lines etcc and the individual dog. 

THe trouble makers usually were gsds, dobs, rotties. pits. or any bullie breed. 

Sled dogs also could be trouble makers i have no idea why my dog gets along with them so well it is if she thinks that is the same kind of creature she is and all other dogs are some other creature not related to her. Really strange. Cause she bonds with them all and will take pups in and start guarding them. I baby sat a few husky pups and my dog became too abnormally protective of them not letting other dogs around them treating them like her own. So i stopped bringing them in.


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## pets4life

yeah seems normal there is no reason for a spayed female to attack a male dog for no reason. You handled the situation great. your dog did great also. SOunds like a great dog and you sound like a good handler. Some handlers get over abnormally insane and pull a gun out. YOu just stayed calm.


I have had this happen to me many times witih my intact bitch. AND like you they just circle and dont attack her. Its a dominance presense thing. They know the other dog is stronger or higher rank and dont wanna get their ass kicked.

I go out a lot on walks. It happened many many times. Most dogs will not attact my 95 pound czech bitch who is also trained in personal protection from eurosport. ONLY Time she did recently was at high park toronto a rottie attacked us and she grabbed his face till he screamed. She let go and he ran off. SHe was really calm through the whole ordeal.

BUT MY west working line male HAS Gotten attacked, dogs are not as respectful to him as they are my bitch. SOme smaller dogs like jack russsels will back off. My male is not submissive either he was a huge bully growing up. BUt a lot of dogs will still harass him. He will not fight the way my female will. SHe will just bite down hard causing serious injury. He doesnt do that he will just flip his lip show teeth and start snapping.

MINEAREWORKINGLINE i think in your situation you had a lot to do with it also you remained calm? you didnt flip out your dog was calm. Had yoru dog lunged and barked it would have changed but you both acted steller. We seriously need more people like that. WE have so many out of control dogs here in Toronto with people.

My family has a few other working line gsds as well my male was always a rough very rough aggressive puppy specially towards other animals and dogs. My female on other hand was always good great manners. But she turned into the beast. Their lines are totoally diff also hes working german lines, shes working slovakin east european lines. they look very diff. Shes built a lot more powerful like a wolf kinda, stronger jaws.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> but it has been proven many times over that the best combination for peace in a multidog household is one male and one female.


 LOL ... yes indeed!! To quote leerberg "Two Dogs are a "Pair" three dogs are a "Pack!" That does not mean people can't do multi dog households but it does mean you best have your "stuff together!"  
Leerburg | Introducing a New Dog into a Home with Other Dogs




MineAreWorkingline said:


> *We turned to see a German Shepherd, who had slipped its leash, charging us. No where to run, no where to hide, so we stood together and waited. *The distraught owners were running behind and yelling to warn me how dangerous there dog was. When the GSD was just about on top of us, she slammed on the breaks and back peddled. We continued to stand calmly, and the other GSD kept circling and backing off. It turns out this other German Shepherd was an extremely dog aggressive spayed female. Her owners were in shock that she had not attacked and actually refused to approach my male. It seems that this female had never encountered an intact male before and the I assume the smell of testosterone was all it took to back her off.


In my experiance ... that is how it's done. 

Dogs will pursue a "fleeing target" but if the chosen target stops and faces them?? Well ... that is a bit different?? When faced with a "target" that is not in flight?? "Most" ambush predators" ... "choose to make a better "Choice!"

That has been my experiance thus far.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well, that data was from scientific studies done years ago and I do believe it covered all animals. I would not know if it applies to Pit Bulls, as back then, Pits weren't really kept as pets so I doubt they would have been part of the study.
> 
> I think to be more specific, it was not addressing intact female to intact female but intact female in reference to one of the other three. I also don't think it was directed at animals in the same household as there are too many other variables such as intact female to intact female aggression, jealousy, resource guarding, etc., involved. The females may be blood thirsty bitches, but it has been proven many times over that the best combination for peace in a multidog household is one male and one female.
> 
> Throughout the years I have found the study to hold true. It is no secret that I am a fan of dog parks and have had plenty of opportunity to observe dogs interact on neutral territory.
> 
> I would like to add a personal experience of mine. Once when out with my intact male, the one that loved any and all dogs and would walk away from a fight if given half a chance, I heard people yelling. My dog was loose and by my side. We turned to see a German Shepherd, who had slipped its leash, charging us. No where to run, no where to hide, so we stood together and waited. The distraught owners were running behind and yelling to warn me how dangerous there dog was. When the GSD was just about on top of us, she slammed on the breaks and back peddled. We continued to stand calmly, and the other GSD kept circling and backing off. It turns out this other German Shepherd was an extremely dog aggressive spayed female. Her owners were in shock that she had not attacked and actually refused to approach my male. It seems that this female had never encountered an intact male before and the I assume the smell of testosterone was all it took to back her off.


It has been my experience that spaying often makes bitches more aggressive. 
I know you and I have discussed this before, with me being sarcastic. My Sabi girl did not like males approaching when she was in heat and would warn them off strongly. If they ignored her warnings and pushed the issue, she had no problem correcting them forcibly. I never saw her attack a male but she sure didn't want them near her. After I had her spayed she didn't like intact males at any time. Again I never saw her start a fight or charge any dog, but she certainly didn't want them near her. And dogs getting in her face were quickly schooled. Bud was the exception, she adored him.
Some of the worst DA dogs I have seen are spayed bitches and I don't think it would help with same sex aggression at all. Or at least I wouldn't stake my dogs safety on it.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Dogs will pursue a "fleeing target" but if the chosen target stops and faces them?? Well ... that is a bit different?? When faced with a "target" that is not in flight?? "Most" ambush predators" ... "choose to make a better "Choice!"
> 
> That has been my experiance thus far.


Not really, at least not in this instance. According to the owners, this female was dog aggressive and would attack another dog, moving or not. IMO, it was a matter of hierarchy of an intact male over a spayed female when she got close enough to realize he was intact.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> It has been my experience that spaying often makes bitches more aggressive.
> I know you and I have discussed this before, with me being sarcastic. My Sabi girl did not like males approaching when she was in heat and would warn them off strongly. If they ignored her warnings and pushed the issue, she had no problem correcting them forcibly. I never saw her attack a male but she sure didn't want them near her. After I had her spayed she didn't like intact males at any time. Again I never saw her start a fight or charge any dog, but she certainly didn't want them near her. And dogs getting in her face were quickly schooled. Bud was the exception, she adored him.
> Some of the worst DA dogs I have seen are spayed bitches and I don't think it would help with same sex aggression at all. Or at least I wouldn't stake my dogs safety on it.


There is a difference between a female, or a male, running off another dog because they don't want to be bothered, or are even afraid, vs dominating another dog. A dog may be the aggressor, but that does not make it the dominant dog.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is a difference between a female, or a male, running off another dog because they don't want to be bothered, or are even afraid, vs dominating another dog. A dog may be the aggressor, but that does not make it the dominant dog.


Agree with that. And I did used to tell people that Sabs was not aggressive, she just wasn't fond of random dogs approaching. I just always found it odd that she seriously did not like males, at all.
However since I worked a lot with second chance dogs, I have noted that for whatever reason spayed bitches seem to have a higher then average rate of dog aggression. I think they need those hormones to keep their moods balanced or something.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not really, at least not in this instance. According to the owners, this female was dog aggressive and would attack another dog, moving or not. IMO, it was a matter of hierarchy of an intact male over a spayed female when she got close enough to realize he was intact.


Oh most likely, I have no idea?? But you said* "we" waited,"* that's my point, you *actively* took her standard *"choice" *of the table ... "not one target but two???"


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## MineAreWorkingline

pets4life said:


> yEs i have visted many dog parks from all over also, not always with my dogs but friends dogs. My dog back then years ago an intact bitch would rule every dog park she would go into she would just start running the place.
> 
> INtact males usually seem dominant over altered males but not always it depends on the breed and the temprament. There was intact lab who would always go in the park who was the most submissive dog.
> 
> It depends on breeds how they were bred their lines etcc and the individual dog.
> 
> THe trouble makers usually were gsds, dobs, rotties. pits. or any bullie breed.
> 
> Sled dogs also could be trouble makers i have no idea why my dog gets along with them so well it is if she thinks that is the same kind of creature she is and all other dogs are some other creature not related to her. Really strange. Cause she bonds with them all and will take pups in and start guarding them. I baby sat a few husky pups and my dog became too abnormally protective of them not letting other dogs around them treating them like her own. So i stopped bringing them in.


Once again, back to the study, the purpose was not to compare dominant intact Czech GSD females to mild mannered, neutered male Whippets. The study was conducted using similar animals. So if you were to take two male and two female Czech GSDs of similar lines and dominance and then neuter one female and one male, the results were intact male, intact female, neutered male and neutered female of initial comparable dominance. It would be futile to do a study that did not encompass those key areas.

Regarding spayed females becoming more dog aggressive, there are two trains of thought. One is all females produce some testosterone which is balanced with estrogen and other hormones in an intact bitch. A spayed female lacks this balance and now has a greater impact from testosterone making her more aggressive, but not more dominant. Another way of looking at increased aggression in a spayed female is where is the aggression with these other dogs coming from? A place of fear when faced with what it perceives as a more dominant dog? "Let me get you before you get me?" Personally, I would think the latter. Definitely open to hearing other thoughts on this.

One of my breeders has a very dominant bitch that has owned every male she has encountered. Is it because she has never been with a male whose dominance rivals hers? I don't know. I have a extremely dominant male. Do I think the breeders bitch and my male would fight to the finish? Absolutely not. Killing , or causing physical harm to each other, just isn't conducive to not only survival of the species but also to survival of the fittest.

IME, regarding dog parks, it is very common for speutered dogs to be mobbed upon arrival. Hey! Who's the new guy? My experience with intact dogs is they get mobbed too, but other dogs quickly withdrawl and reapproach with caution or avoid.


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## pets4life

WIll they fight to death? the female might. THe male wont. Like you said. The females have the aggression not the dominance but whats dominance going to do if there is no aggression to back it up? My male acts super domiant. It also depends whats at stakes. I have seen males go at it many times also females. The males arent anything like the females. IF the females are not sspit up one will die. Wether it is constructive or not it doesn't matter that is just the way they are they lose their rationale. At first around 15 years ago i thought light of the subject. Till i started to see it. You can ask some of the biggest working line breeders out there they will say the same. Males can usually work it out. Females its gonna end it death.


Now female male. I have seen a lot of time it works out good. But not always while working at a vet clinic twice I have seen a male brought in close to death because of the female he lived with. I don't think that is common though. But i do knew a couple of intact females who see males the same way they see females. They either get along or its a fight. Might not be dominance. Might just be pure bitch insane aggression who knows. One study can't hold true to all animals. SOme species females are larger stronger and more dominant. Hyenas, birds of prey, most snakes, etc.. (if the study was including all animals not sure if you said it was).


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## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Once again, back to the study, the purpose was not to compare dominant intact Czech GSD females to mild mannered, neutered male Whippets. The study was conducted using similar animals. So if you were to take two male and two female Czech GSDs of similar lines and dominance and then neuter one female and one male, the results were intact male, intact female, neutered male and neutered female of initial comparable dominance. It would be futile to do a study that did not encompass those key areas.
> 
> Regarding spayed females becoming more dog aggressive, there are two trains of thought. One is all females produce some testosterone which is balanced with estrogen and other hormones in an intact bitch. A spayed female lacks this balance and now has a greater impact from testosterone making her more aggressive, but not more dominant. Another way of looking at increased aggression in a spayed female is where is the aggression with these other dogs coming from? A place of fear when faced with what it perceives as a more dominant dog? "Let me get you before you get me?" Personally, I would think the latter. Definitely open to hearing other thoughts on this.
> 
> One of my breeders has a very dominant bitch that has owned every male she has encountered. Is it because she has never been with a male whose dominance rivals hers? I don't know. I have a extremely dominant male. *Do I think the breeders bitch and my male would fight to the finish? Absolutely not. Killing , or causing physical harm to each other, just isn't conducive to not only survival of the species but also to survival of the fittest*.
> 
> IME, regarding dog parks, it is very common for speutered dogs to be mobbed upon arrival. Hey! Who's the new guy? My experience with intact dogs is they get mobbed too, but other dogs quickly withdrawl and reapproach with caution or avoid.


 
The bolded is so true. It is the weaker-nerved or crazy ones that usually do the fighting. That doesn't sound reasonable. But, the dogs that are naturally dominant with good aggression simply do not need to fight. They understand dog body language, and their body language is saying, "I am confident, I am boss, I am powerful, and, I don't have to prove it. I am." 

Other normal dogs accept that and move on. The dogs that have no clue how to interact with other dogs, might run up to the dog posturing and begin a fight. Dogs that are nerve bags tend to bark and lunge like idiots because they think that a big enough show will protect them. Do this to the wrong dog, and they will get their clock cleaned. 

Bitches on the other hand are from Venus. You might be able to figure out the rules on the Martians and find a decent percentage of the population of males that follow them. Bitches, they are just fun. They can be perfectly fine with another dog or bitch for years, and then the stars align just right and the other dog steps their toe over an imaginary line that one or both dogs are totally aware of, and it is ON. It isn't crazy. It isn't bad temperament. It may be influenced positively by good management and leadership and training. But, there is always a possibility that things might go south super fast with bitches. 

I feel like Hagrid who is disappointed in those magical creatures who lack poisonous fangs. I like bitches. They keep me on my toes. I find them a little easier to train, and they bond strongly. They respond to my leadership style easily enough. But there is that something extra there, that is hard to define. And, normally, it is nothing I need worry about with dogs outside of my pack. They don't care at all about strange dogs. Oh, they notice them, and they may want to check out their vital statistics. But there is going to be an all out war with a stranger. No point.

Maybe it is about protecting the den and pups, that some females see something in another female that makes them lose their minds. Their internal instinct says, all possible threats must go, you are getting ready to become receptive to males. They of course don't think this, it is just their inner workings telling them to clear the runway, puppies are incoming.


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## MineAreWorkingline

pets4life said:


> WIll they fight to death? the female might. THe male wont.
> 
> Google dog kills dog and read article after article of intact male dogs killing male or female dogs.
> 
> Like you said. The females have the aggression not the dominance but whats dominance going to do if there is no aggression to back it up?
> 
> You misunderstood my comment altogether. Males can have a ton of aggression, frequently much more than a female. Depending on the type of aggression, it can be hormone driven and no dog has more testosterone than an intact male.
> 
> My male acts super domiant. It also depends whats at stakes. I have seen males go at it many times also females. The males arent anything like the females. IF the females are not sspit up one will die.
> 
> There are many members on this forum who have two female dogs living in peace long term, same can be said for males or other combinations. You don't want to try dealing with two same age, male, comparable dogs when they hit maturity. As one breeder on this forum put it something to the effect two equal males hitting maturity: it will be the mother of all battles.
> 
> Wether it is constructive or not it doesn't matter that is just the way they are they lose their rationale. At first around 15 years ago i thought light of the subject. Till i started to see it. You can ask some of the biggest working line breeders out there they will say the same. Males can usually work it out. Females its gonna end it death.
> 
> Whether it is constructive or not is of paramount importance. Not all, but many breeders cull dogs from the gene pool who will not breed naturally. I don't dismiss female / female aggression, but it does not necessarily have a foundation in dominance but often in an effort to ensure a place in the gene pool and to have access to the resources to raise a litter with minimal competition, survival of the fittest. I am sure there can be other factors involved, but female / female aggression is not usually about dominance. And just for the record, I have discussed this with breeders and found that many experience female / female aggression when one of the females is coming into heat, but only in the form of fur fights, or they may have one female dog that simply is a problem with other female dogs, else they experience only minor squabbles. Of course different breeders will have had various experiences, but no, they all have not had female / female aggression problems. If you really are interested in the topic, just do a simple search on this forum and you will see members and breeders alike on female to female aggression threads who have not experienced female/ female aggression.
> 
> Now female male. I have seen a lot of time it works out good. But not always while working at a vet clinic twice I have seen a male brought in close to death because of the female he lived with. I don't think that is common though. But i do knew a couple of intact females who see males the same way they see females. They either get along or its a fight. Might not be dominance. Might just be pure bitch insane aggression who knows. One study can't hold true to all animals. SOme species females are larger stronger and more dominant. Hyenas, birds of prey, most snakes, etc.. (if the study was including all animals not sure if you said it was).


No study holds true for each and every animal and no study will likely ever cover each and every species on the face of the earth, nor should it need to. There are always exceptions to the rule, but researchers do not utilize the exceptions to draw conclusions. In fact, in many studies, the most extreme parameters are frequently dismissed so that one can draw rational conclusions based on the averages.


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## Muskeg

"You don't want to try dealing with two same age, male, comparable dogs when they hit maturity. As one breeder on this forum put it something to the effect two equal males hitting maturity: it will be the mother of all battles." (MAWL). 

I completely agree with the quote below. And that goes double if there is a female dog in heat around. I even separate my two otherwise friendly males during this time- they are different breeds and 7 years apart in age but there is more tension between them than I like to see during standing heat (they are kept separate from the females of course, too) and why in the world risk that fight?

I have two sisters (dogs). In the month or so before they go into heat, they get a bit antsy with each other. Nothing I can't put a stop to easily. Nothing near what might happen if I let two brothers of this breed/type go at it. 

Per some posters on this forum, males fight for "breeding rights" not "breathing rights" so they won't kill each other? Breeding and breathing are the same thing, when it comes to males. They will fight to the end. Particularly around a female in heat. 

I'm not sure why people on this forum think bitches are so aggressive with each other and more aggressive than males? I've seen just the opposite. It only takes one male to impregnate all the girls. A male has no reason to keep another male around. If they are in the same house, a male dog can't chase the other boy off, so he is in a situation where he needs to eliminate him. Thus, a male dog who is fine with other dogs outside the household, could have an issue within-pack male dogs. 

Yes, it could be managed, controlled, trained. But it would still be constant vigilance with two male dogs the same age, lines, breed. Littermates in particular. 

Boys, men, male dogs are all more aggressive and violent than the females of the same species. If we deny that, we are denying basic biology.

From what I've observed, though, unlike in the human species, male dogs are never aggressive or violent toward the female dogs in their pack. A solid male is even respectful and gentle through the breeding process. Not to be gross, but it is true. 

I wouldn't consider breeding a male dog who was aggressive to bitches. As for humans, a similar standard wouldn't be a bad idea. 

To circle back to topic, though, within like breeds-lines, yes, the intact male is on top. Females can pull the strings and make the decisions, but the male is still the top. I've even seen the male tell the girls to knock off their bickering. And those girls listen immediately. 

You see the same in many species. You ever watched two rutting bulls go at it while a few cows just stand there and watch? The cows aren't the ones fighting.


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## selzer

Maybe because some of us have seen the exact opposite.


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## Sabis mom

It has been my observation that a dominant female, a truly dominant female, rules the pack. The male, her "mate", is the hired muscle so to speak. Think about it, the female picks her mate, she selects the den site and all members assist her with rearing the pups. A male can move up in rank by catching the eye of the Alpha female. A female can only move up in rank if her predecessor dies or quits.
It is seldom truly dominant bitches who fight, it is their lesser counterparts. The dominant bitches will put another dog down, "pin it" so to speak although it is posture that holds it down not actual force, but when they do get into it it's brutal. IMO this is because if a dominant bitch feels a need to fight for position, she is truly taking out the competition. 
Bearing in mind that in a wild canine pack only the alpha pair breed, I still think that the reason we have issues with SSA in domestic dogs is because with larger litter sizes then in wild canines we are actually duplicating positions. It has always seemed to me that the breeds that statistically bear small litters have less issues with SSA then in breeds that bear larger litters.
I am not very smart so I could be wrong. What do I know?:laugh2:


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## pets4life

Google results show pitbulls killing other dogs mostly. WHich is another story. I don't deny male pits are worse than females. They were bred to fight other dogs. Any dog bred for the sole purpose of fighting other dogs I am going to assume the males are worse from what I have seen. (MIGHt not always be true). But pits are a whole nother story and males do seem worse or at least the same. I would prefer not to get into them. BUT that is what comes up when googling dog kills another dog. NEVER german shepherd male kills female. I am done with the subject though. Rather let breeders say what they think on the subject. Selzer seems to have the same experience. Also seems to have nice dogs. But i have heard some of the best well known top czech working line breeders say the exact same thing when it comes to male and females. Not sure if they are on this board I think they have their own forum by now. When it comes to normal dog female aggression I have also been told by vets and other trainers/ breeders it comes from the instinct where the female where give her life to protect her pups.


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## pets4life

ALSO not all GSD bitches are like this just like not all males are dominant. Not sure how common it is. Some females do live together for years and then **** breaks loose. But then maybe some females do live together till old age. I have not seen it personally (with wl gsds)But here it obv happens. But on a personal note ive been doing personal protection on and off last 6 or so years with all kinds of trainers/groups and I would pick a female over male any day. Ask me that 10 years ago i would say male. It is just so much easier to find a good female that will actually fight and be civil. The males seem to back off a lot quicker. AGAin just my personal experience over the years while working with mals and WL gsds. We kinda hijacked someone elses thread. Maybe another thread would be better.


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## pets4life

BUt ill quickly admit one thing when there is a good male. HE is REALLY good and usually surpasses all the females in strength in every way. Its just finding and getting a hold that kind of male is impossible. (From personal observation and from watching the decoy get butchered) They probably are taken quickly by police or for breeding, military, prisons etc..


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## selzer

pets4life said:


> BUt ill quickly admit one thing when there is a good male. HE is REALLY good and usually surpasses all the females in strength in every way. Its just finding and getting a hold that kind of male is impossible. (From personal observation and from watching the decoy get butchered) They probably are taken quickly by police or for breeding, military, prisons etc..


Finding a good male, sigh...


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> Finding a good male, sigh...


That was worth a belly laugh!


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