# Low-Medium Drives?



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

I figured I would post this here, in order to get the best advice.







Also, please point me in the right direction if there are previous threads discussing this..

I have a 22 month old, DDR line male. I have had him since he was 8 weeks old and have put all of his foundation work into him. We do not train in Schutzhund, but I do train all 3 phases and plan to do AKC tracking and French Ring with him. He is an excellent tracker, LOVES to play the game of bitework and is progressing in his protection work very well. He has great nerves, does very well with environmental distractions, etc. He really does try to please me, for the most part...

My problem lies in our OB. I'm really hoping some folks who have experience successfully training DDR line dogs can chime in here. 

Two things seem to be the root of our issues: He has low-medium drive for most toys/food AND he is somewhat a soft dog. His obedience to date has been 100% motivational. Even with that, if I don't keep things VERY upbeat, light-hearted and informal, he gets very flat and acts like Chicken Little. He has nice, fast motions, good distance heeling, and good stationary focus when not under distraction, but that's about as far as we go. These are pretty much all things he's been doing since he was very young, and it seems that we cannot progress. I cannot even think about putting a pinch on him, nevermind delivering a physical correction, because he would totally shut down. How will I ever proof behaviors and make them reliable if I cannot correct him for disobedience? Thus far, his only "corrections" have come in the form of withholding his reward.

I think MY problem lies in the fact that I believe he is capable of doing these things, I'm just having a hard time conjuring up the necessary tools to get us there. He is definitely not a dog I'm about to give up on. I know he'll never be a top level competition dog, but I'd like to see how far we can go. Also, even though attentive heeling is not mandatory or even judged in French Ring, it is something I personally, have always strived for and is what I want to train him to do.

I guess my questions are: Is it okay to use something that best motivates him for training? He doesn't really like tugs all that much, however maybe I just haven't found the "right" one. He goes CRAZY for those kong tennis balls with the squeaker in them, but I know that isn't an ideal reward because I can't really keep the fun with me. He occasionally will play with a Bende ball on a rope, but tends to lose interest fairly quickly.

I'm not sure if I've made ANY sense, but if you've gotten this far, feel free to comment!









Also, I am attending a seminar in April with Michael Ellis, and I am hoping to come away with some sense of direction from that as well.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BritneyPHe goes CRAZY for those kong tennis balls with the squeaker in them, but I know that isn't an ideal reward because I can't really keep the fun with me. well.


Can you somehow attach a rope to the ball? Or weave a few of them into a fleece tug toy? My dog loves those balls too. Maybe I should try my own advice, I just thought of it!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Use what ever motivates him. I don't always use tugs and often throw the toy for my dog instead of having them come into me for tugging. I never tugged with my early dogs. The toy is still coming from you and, like food, is a reward. You will need to learn how to use the reward so it does not always have to be present and so he maintains drive throughout the routine. You will probably need to take a lot of steps backwards to retrain his attitude. That shouldn't be that hard to do if he really likes that Kong ball. 

The skill of using corrections is in teaching the dog how to react to the correction. If done correctly a dog will actually come up in drive and not shut down. This is a skill in of itself that, unfortunately, many handlers have not mastered. 

Good luck,


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The only reason I started tugging with my dogs is because Nike and Vala are so possessive. Flying back into me for a hard game of tug is how I got them to bring toys back. They love the fight and are very physical. 

It isn't necessary in order to get great OB.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My Kenya is soft, no ball drive (she will chase anything that moves, but it has to be moving, so a ball in my hand is nothing), somewhat food driven but not really obsessive enough for it to be super valuable, won't tug back on a piece of choice raw meat. Like Lisa says I just have to find what motivates her and go with it. She needs a lot of encouragement and thrives off being able to interact with me and have my approval. Certain verbal corrections are much more stressful for her than a hard physical correction. When we started SchH style obedience, I got the best results if I had ignored her for most of the day, not done much exercise with her, so she was ready to go mentally and physically, feeling starved for attention and ready to burst for need of exercise. Then whenever she offered what I wanted as far as position, focus, attitude, etc I would REALLY praise and encourage. Right now her favorite "reward" for doing longer periods of heeling is an exuberant "YES!" from me at the end and then being allowed to jump all over me. Then she runs off and does a zoomie circle, comes back, and is ready for more work, lol. Some people think it should be flattering she is so attached to me but it really is a lot of work getting her "up". If she looks flat, it's not fun for her or me so what's the point. We did a lot of the initial training of the pivots, maintaining focus, correct position, etc just doing positive training with a clicker and such. I don't correct her much, just ignore the bad and reward the good. If we're not making improvements then I just end the training session and do something else.

I would be overjoyed if Kenya went crazy for ANY toy. If I ever find one, I'll use it no matter what it is.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

My dog would walk through fire for his ball on a rope that I got from elitek9. It's the only ball on a rope that he's even a little interested in. Before this ball he loved, and still loves, those orange rubber balls. They don't come on a string so it was difficult to train with it, but I managed. I use a bait bag behind my back to keep it in and either threw it or held on to it while he chewed on it. I still use the bait bag for his ball on a rope.

I didn't do any obedience on leash until my dog was about 9 months old and still do most of my obedience completely off leash and I work his obedience rather compulsively all the time. I have a soft, willing, honest dog and most of the time all he needs is a verbal correction and withholding his ball or treat. Only recently has he shown any interest in working for food. He worked for food as a baby and then lost interest at about 5 months until recently and he's 1.5 years old now. I do use a pinch collar on him for some of his heeling work, but use very light corrections. Excessive force on my dog would ruin him. I proof him all the time and most of the time don't need a leash. The theme here is that soft dogs can be corrected, you just have to use the correction that's appropriate for your dog.

You can put a pinch collar on your dog; you just have to use it sparingly and lightly and then praise like crazy to balance out the correction. It's not as easy to train a dog like yours, but it can be done.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't buy balls on strings, since all I've seen are hollow and it takes minutes for my dog to destroy them, but I buy solid rubber balls and it takes me 5 minutes to drill a hole and get a rope through.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Thank you all for the advice so far! I guess I will just continue to do what works for him, without worrying so much about what is "appropriate".

Elaine, any ideas about the fact that just attaching a leash to a pinch collar on him makes him act like an abused shelter dog? And no, he has never had a single bad experience with one. He's probably worn one less than 5 times, and all those times were either playing while playing, or during protection work, just so he could wear it and not have any negative associations w/ it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

What Catu just wrote above reminded me of a very important point. The toys a dog works for should only be used for work. Never leave the toy with the dog. You want them to always desire that toy and never get bored with it. For some of these dogs having no toys at all except when you bring out the toy for OB or play may be best. That way you are part of the fun and not just the toy.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IF you would like to be able to use a pinch (and you may never need it) then he must wear it all the time you train. It should be part of his training equipment just like his other collar. Also, watch how you act when you put it on and if you attach a leash to it. Your own behaviors and expectations may be having an effect on how he acts. 

I had a female that didn't react well to physical corrections. For her they were too personal and she would shut down. Funny thing, she was fine with an e-collar. Have a dog in our club that would have been ruined if the old training had continued with all of the corrections on a pinch. I had her introduce the e-collar to the dog. The pinch wasn't shutting him down, but it was causing conflict between the dog and his handler. He is now a SchH3 IPO3 and is a super nice dog to work. Not trying to promote the e-collar. Just point out that it is not always the corrections that are the problem, but they type of corrections. Make sense?


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Lisa, In response to your first post- the toys I've used for training, including the Kong ball, have only ever come out for training and I won't use the toys he has access to on a daily basis for training. Also, for a period of time now, he's had a lot of free access to toys in the house, so I've recently eliminated that and only give him toys for short periods of time and then take them away again.

It is interesting that you bring up the e-collar, as that is something that I have always considered using with him, specifically for the reasons you stated in regards to the female you said who took physical corrections personally. I have yet to try one, as I still don't think we're anywhere near that point, but I have always felt in the back of my mind that it may be a good choice for him as he won't really have that leash in my hand connection that he would with a pinch. I will start putting his pinch on him for training at all times though. If for no other reason than that he will just get desensitized to it.

I think e-collars are a fabulous tool when used the right way and in the right hands. I've seen many, many very happy and upbeat dogs in the work that have had e-collars used in their training. As you said, it's more the type of correction. Personally, I think an e-collar on a very low level of stimulation could deliver a much milder correction than a light pop on a pinch ever could.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Just make darn sure you introduce it correctly. Do a search. There have been a LOT of e-collar discussions on the BB.

It isn't so much the strength of the correction, but the type.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Oh I certainly don't plan to use on except under the guidance of a professional- if at all.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

The Elitek9 ball on a rope is VERY durable. Their customers are primarily police and dogs that do protection work. Nandi is HEAVY and chewer and gripper, Elite k9 lasted longest than any other product I have tried.

If your dog is acting like a "abused shelter dog" with a line on the pinch, I recommend ignoring the pouting or whatev er behavior he is showing. Plus the behavior may be getting somehow reinforced if YOU are also reacting and maybe taking it off while he is pouting. 
Distract him!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Britney, read my last post in Breeding section on "Nerve". I think a lot of what i posted about DDR dogs in general applies to your male. He is only 22 months and motivational training out of prey or food motive is not going to give you the pic that some of the West dogs will. Yank and crank will only shut him down......just work on basic commands of what you want him to do...donot strive for that "Sch" type prey driven obedience at this point. Get him obsessed with a tug of jute and when his tugging and obsession becomes strong enough, get your focus obedience from that avenue...Cliff


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Cliff,

Thanks SO much for your input! Your posts on the nerve thread were excellent and I could not agree more with your last one. Everything you say tends to be very reassuring. I have known all along, and have always told people I train with, that I probably wouldn't see my dog's full potential until he was 3-4 years old. He is still very much a puppy, and I have always maintained that frame of mind and have never rushed anything with him. It has REALLY paid off thus far.









http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v627/_...vironmental.flv


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

As for getting your dog used to working with a leash and pinch collar, I would just put on the pinch collar and attach a short leash, one that won't get tangled in his legs, every time you let him outside to potty and/or to play with him. You can also do this while working with him, just put it on and leave it hang. Once he gets used to wearing it, then you can start to hold it. Do it gradually and praise like crazy.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

P.S. Cliff- I'd love to come down to your club sometime!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Britney, very nice dog who will definitely increase his intensity as he gets older, he has typical medium drives for now but at 3 he will be much stronger...at some point the light is going to flick in with his emotional component hardening and then you'll really see some stuff. that Black male I posted about was like that at two, now at 3 year he goes the length of field full tilt and hits the decoy high in the chest or shoulder blade with no slow down at all, grips are much stronger also. Obviously his owner is very happy, your dog reminds me of him. One last thing, at his still young age I would still be working on bite development for full grips. You want that rock solid so that when the intensity kicks in he will be full because he learned it thoroughly when younger. This happens a lot with the DDR dogs in particular, once they start gripping people move them too fast, not making sure they give a full bite everytime to get the reward. with West dogs this may only take a couple months because they are gripping with strong intensity younger so you can move faster. But with DDR dogs you have to stay with only letting dog give you a full bite up to 2 or 21/2 years if the intensity is not there. If not they will develop habits of 3/4 bites that are allowed so they can progress with the other dogs their age and then when the intensity kicks in later you have a strong dog that gives you a lot of 3/4 grips. Of course the geniuses will attribute this to the line, but often it is a result of TD moving the dog too fast with grip work....Good Luck!!


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Thanks for the compliments Cliff! We've worked his grip building A LOT, on a back tie, gradually increasing the hardness of the sleeve. However, when we discovered that he was much more comfortable on the legs, we've had to transition him to targeting them reliably and his grips have suffered a little. His doesn't have the fullest strikes, but he always counters in very nicely and full, as that is something I've taught him since he was a young puppy.

I am a HUGE grip foundation fanatic, and I agree 100% wholeheartedly about most 3/4 grips being attributed to rushing a dog along. Unfortunately, you see this a lot in FR, because they are SO quick to get a dog on the suit. Cruiser has been on it a handful of times, but I'm not ready to commit to it because A.) I still want to work his grips on something harder (I'm currently in the market for a harder leg sleeve), and B.) He has an out, that was trained using zero compulsion, but I still want him to be winning at this stage.

Thanks again, your words are very encouraging, I know my boy shows a lot of promise and I have no issue waiting for him to mature.


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi Britney,

Hang in there with Cruiser. Cain was handler soft at that same age and can still be "soft" to my verbal corrections. He will now take a much harder physical correction and show little to no reaction. I have gone to working (with my OB coach) him with an e collar. We took a lot of time introducing it to him and he now works with a lot more precision.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Nora, 

Thanks so much for the advice! I know you've probably dealt with many of the same things with Cain. Was he difficult to motivate when he was younger, or did you just use what worked for him?


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

Britney,

I used what worked but it was a challenge as a youngster to find anything that worked LOL. When I first started with him at about 8 mths old, he had very little food drive and not a lot of play. Rag work with him took a lot of time as well. He really wanted to focus on the person versus the rag. 

I have spent the last 10 mths reworking a lot of his OB. He now is working with a lot more precision and his enthusiasm is way up as well.

Feel free to PM me if I can share any other specifics with you. I know you are working Cruiser in FR versus SchH so any specifics I can share may not apply.


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## Bearmylove (Sep 23, 2021)

CainGSD said:


> Britney,
> 
> I used what worked but it was a challenge as a youngster to find anything that worked LOL. When I first started with him at about 8 mths old, he had very little food drive and not a lot of play. Rag work with him took a lot of time as well. He really wanted to focus on the person versus the rag.
> 
> ...


I think you have to get a puppy that is.solid ; not afraid , solid nerves and demonstrates drives. I got such a.puppy from.WITMER TYSON in California . MICA.also had.a turn off.switch.Her bite.work.was for real. She.passed on about 3 months.ago at 12.years old. 
I think the dog has to be a.natural.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

post is from 2009


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