# Cesar millian and dog terms



## Lobobear44

I noticed Cesar millan hitting dogs like something to do with water bowl dog food Labrador aggression. He hit her several times in the episode. I noticed yanks on leashes and force. His Alpha thing bothers me i don't believe that no more. He seems to think of dogs as property too. Dog terms like owner pets etc. hate the property terms dogs are not objects living beings. No lesser than humans we have all same feelings all beings pain and strive for love. I hate brags about humans being better than all other species superior. No one is inferior to anyone. Dogs are my companions comrades best friends like other humans. I'm the guardian caretaker of dogs or best friends.


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## Cschmidt88

The Cesar thing is a whole can of worms, he has a lot of supporters but many people seem to forget that this is television.

I'm personally not a fan, because despite "Don't try this at home"... people do. And they do it a lot, and it presents dangerous scenarios at times.

I like that he's a supporter of exercise and I do think he cares for the dogs.

I find that really does not have a good understanding of dog behavior or body language. (Such as "panting" being a sign of a "Calm submissive" dog, when that is an indicator of stress if the dog is not hot or active prior.)

Studies have shown dogs are not as strong of pack animals as many believe, the do indeed form packs, but they are very loose knit and dogs come and go. Here's a good link explaining the scientific definition of dominance. 
The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

More information on Alpha Theory 
De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

This page goes through a whole slew of reasons some are not fans.
Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers


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## Ambrola

I was surprised that Ceaser tried to commit suicide?


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## DaniFani

Ceaser, and that video in particular, has been beaten to death in several threads on here.

Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for cesar milan

You can peruse through all those threads if you like. Also, from your previous posts I understand that you are very strongly, emotional, when it comes to dogs. I disagree that dogs are on the same level as humans, but I don't think that you need to go to the opposite extreme and say they are sub-servants to us....just a balance of below humans, but obviously deserving of respect and care *because* they are at the whim of human interactions, development, and industrialization. However, I would never say they are equal to humans, but to each their own.


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## Lobobear44

DaniFani said:


> Ceaser, and that video in particular, has been beaten to death in several threads on here.
> 
> Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for cesar milan
> 
> You can peruse through all those threads if you like. Also, from your previous posts I understand that you are very strongly, emotional, when it comes to dogs. I disagree that dogs are on the same level as humans, but I don't think that you need to go to the opposite extreme and say they are sub-servants to us....just a balance of below humans, but obviously deserving of respect and care *because* they are at the whim of human interactions, development, and industrialization. However, I would never say they are equal to humans, but to each their own.


Humans are above dogs cause why? We make stuff give shelter and such but there is way more to that than better or equal. Dogs and other species know more of them and us than we do them. humans are a disgrace so rotten to innocent creatures and show very little understanding and more misconceptions towards them. Dogs are beings if you say owner call a parent an owner of a child adopted or birth. Many vegans like me are offended to saying owner pet below than us. Ever heard no one is inferior to anyone? Animals are humans just furry we humans are furless animals. That goes for all beings. Animals attack a human is cause human was stupid and deserves it.


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## frillint1

I dont agree with all of his methods, but I have to say he has helped me alot with my GSD. Mostly helping me realize when I was getting tense and how it goes to the dog and how to relax after giving a correction and walk with confidence. That actually just made a huge difference for me and my dog. Just watching his show and him telling the people when to relax and be calm but assertive. Cesar doesnt hit the dog he touches them which he no different than us poping the dogs collar.


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## selzer

Lobobear44 said:


> I noticed Cesar millan hitting dogs like something to do with water bowl dog food Labrador aggression. He hit her several times in the episode. I noticed yanks on leashes and force. His Alpha thing bothers me i don't believe that no more. He seems to think of dogs as property too. Dog terms like owner pets etc. hate the property terms dogs are not objects living beings. No lesser than humans we have all same feelings all beings pain and strive for love. I hate brags about humans being better than all other species superior. No one is inferior to anyone. Dogs are my companions comrades best friends like other humans. I'm the guardian caretaker of dogs or best friends.


"*I noticed Cesar millan hitting dogs like something to do with water bowl dog food Labrador aggression. He hit her several times in the episode. I noticed yanks on leashes and force*."

Yeah, I am not a fan of Cesar's either, but he does have quite a following and is a self-made man. 
*
"His Alpha thing bothers me i don't believe that no more."* 

The whole alpha - pack garbage, may have some grains of truth somewhere, but it is so over-done, over-used, that I think it causes way more problems than it helps.

*"He seems to think of dogs as property too. Dog terms like owner pets etc. hate the property terms dogs are not objects living beings."*

Well, they are property in the eyes of the law. Sorry, but that is true, and I hope that it continues to be true. I am my pet's owner, I am, therefore responsible for their behavior, their condition, their training, damages caused by them, etc. And this is true until the dog dies, is put down, or I give or sell him to a new owner. He is not going to grow up and move out on his own at any point. He is and will always be totally dependent on me unless his ownership transfers to another responsible party.
*
"No lesser than humans we have all same feelings all beings pain and strive for love. I hate brags about humans being better than all other species superior. No one is inferior to anyone."*

While dogs have emotions and can feel pain, and can bond with people or other dogs, they are not humans. There are some significant differences that can get us in trouble if we equate dogs to humans. First and foremost, a human leaves behind a family, friends, people at work, people at church, pets etc, some of whom he is responsible to caring for. For this reason, if it comes between saving the life of any of my dogs, and any human being, I will miss my dog very, very much, and grieve for her, but I will save the human if at all possible.

I don't see it that humans are so much better than other species, but dogs are not moral beings. They can love to an extent, they can choose to obey you, but they do not make decisions based on how their action will effect other beings. Humans can do this. Dogs do not. Expecting a dog to hold to a moral code that we adopt is really unfair to the dog. We in fact, have to ensure that our dog's behavior is appropriate and prevent anything that we do not want our dog to do by protecting the dog, and being present, correcting the dog, etc.

A human being will be at some point responsible for a job, for a home, for a family, etc. A dog is never responsible for anyone. We are responsible for them and this is not going to change, no matter how much we train or trust them. We cannot let them make their own decisions because we are responsible for the consequences of those decisions. 

*"Dogs are my companions comrades best friends like other humans. I'm the guardian caretaker of dogs or best friends."*

My dogs are my companions, my comrads, my best friends as well. But I am not their guardian, I am their owner, and that means that I am their caretaker. The whole _guradian_ terminology comes from the animal rights movement, and it is actually very scary. Understand that the animal rights movement and the animal welfare movement are not one in the same. The individuals and organizations behind the Animal Rights Movement, like PETA, really do not like the idea of animal ownership at all. Which means, that if they do not like that you own a dog, they would like to be able to hire an attourney for your dog and take you to court to transfer the guardianship of your dog to a more appropriate entity. This is kind of the road this movement is going down. These people are as crazy as this sounds paranoid. If they feel your dog should have a larger yard to romp in, they can fight for a court to award someone else guardianship of your dog. 

The Animal Welfare movements wants to ensure that people are not neglecting or abusing animals. I am all for that. And if people break laws, they may try to have a dog removed from the ownership of an individual -- that is fine too. 

The difference is that the Animal Rights movement really does not believe in people living with animals. They would rather there not be any dog breeds and pet dogs die out completely, and dogs revert back to packs of feral dogs, like coyotes or wolves. The fact that you tell your dog to SIT to give him a treat is terrible to them, because you are enslaving an animal for your own ends -- they are that crazy. 

There is nothing wrong with the premise of owning a dog or many dogs. This movement is trying to change the way we think about dog-ownership. Dog ownership is in fact responsibility for a specific dog and nothing more. It is not negative. They are trying to make the terminology negative to forward their attitudes of a people's relationship with animals. 

I don't think any of us on this site would be happy with the world according to how Animal Rights People would have it.


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## selzer

Lobobear44 said:


> Humans are above dogs cause why? We make stuff give shelter and such but there is way more to that than better or equal. Dogs and other species know more of them and us than we do them. humans are a disgrace so rotten to innocent creatures and show very little understanding and more misconceptions towards them. Dogs are beings if you say owner call a parent an owner of a child adopted or birth. Many vegans like me are offended to saying owner pet below than us. Ever heard no one is inferior to anyone? *Animals are humans just furry we humans are furless animals*. That goes for all beings. Animals attack a human is cause human was stupid and deserves it.


Uhm, animals are members of the Animal Kingdom. They can be birds, fish, reptiles, mammals, insects, arachnids, etc. Only some animals have fur. Many animals have hair. Humans are animals. All animals are not humans. Only ****-sapiens are humans. Sorry. Canines are not humans -- Different genus and spieces. We are both mammals, but that is about as far as it goes.


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## OUbrat79

Lobobear44 said:


> Humans are above dogs cause why? We make stuff give shelter and such but there is way more to that than better or equal. Dogs and other species know more of them and us than we do them. humans are a disgrace so rotten to innocent creatures and show very little understanding and more misconceptions towards them. Dogs are beings if you say owner call a parent an owner of a child adopted or birth. Many vegans like me are offended to saying owner pet below than us. Ever heard no one is inferior to anyone? Animals are humans just furry we humans are furless animals. That goes for all beings. Animals attack a human is cause human was stupid and deserves it.


Because that is how God made us. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## selzer

Lobobear44 said:


> Humans are above dogs cause why? We make stuff give shelter and such but there is way more to that than better or equal. Dogs and other species know more of them and us than we do them. humans are a disgrace so rotten to innocent creatures and show very little understanding and more misconceptions towards them. Dogs are beings if you say owner call a parent an owner of a child adopted or birth.* Many vegans like me are offended to saying owner pet below than us.* Ever heard no one is inferior to anyone? Animals are humans just furry we humans are furless animals. That goes for all beings. Animals attack a human is cause human was stupid and deserves it.


Maybe you can answer a question for me. How can a Vegan own or be the guardian of a dog? A dog requires meat to be healthy, so the caretaker must purchase meat products for their dog -- how does that work? How is your owning a pet acceptible as it requires countless chickens, lambs, or fish to live usually in awful conditions, being raised soley to be slaughtered to feed your pet? How come the lives of those creatures are not as important as the life of your dog?


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## MiaMoo

selzer said:


> Maybe you can answer a question for me. How can a Vegan own or be the guardian of a dog? A dog requires meat to be healthy, so the caretaker must purchase meat products for their dog -- how does that work? How is your owning a pet acceptible as it requires countless chickens, lambs, or fish to live usually in awful conditions, being raised soley to be slaughtered to feed your pet? How come the lives of those creatures are not as important as the life of your dog?


I got similar questions often as a vegetarian, and it honestly got really annoying. It's the personal choice of a person to not eat a certain food, it is *not* the choice of the dog. A human can live perfectly fine off of non-meat/dairy products, a dog *can't*. A person to force their own dietary choices onto their pets is ridiculous, as is saying someone that doesn't eat meat is a hypocrite for owning a dog that eats meat. How about you go around lecturing vegan/vegetarian parents that have non-vegetarian/vegan kids?

If someone so chooses, they can be selective of where and what kid of meat/dog food they buy, just as some people buy "free-range chicken" and things of the sort.


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## vicky2200

Lobobear44 said:


> I noticed Cesar millan hitting dogs like something to do with water bowl dog food Labrador aggression. He hit her several times in the episode. I noticed yanks on leashes and force. His Alpha thing bothers me i don't believe that no more. He seems to think of dogs as property too. Dog terms like owner pets etc. hate the property terms dogs are not objects living beings. No lesser than humans we have all same feelings all beings pain and strive for love. I hate brags about humans being better than all other species superior. No one is inferior to anyone. Dogs are my companions comrades best friends like other humans. I'm the guardian caretaker of dogs or best friends.


As stated, this topic has been gone over and over a million times. Here's my opinion: He has never hurt an animal. He never does anything worse than a mother dog would do to a pup. The Alpha mindset can be taken too far by some, but the idea behind it works if done properly. Although I say I am my dog's owners, I really don't think of it that way. They mean a great deal to me, so I do everything I can for their betterment. However, I realize that being a human, with a human brain, I have dominion over animals. I do not think that this makes me better, but it is a great thing because I can protect the animals and provide for them. I also acknowledge that they do a lot for me, but in the long run I know what is best for them so they need to listen to me.


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## selzer

MiaMoo said:


> I got similar questions often as a vegetarian, and it honestly got really annoying. It's the personal choice of a person to not eat a certain food, it is *not* the choice of the dog. A human can live perfectly fine off of non-meat/dairy products, a dog *can't*. A person to force their own dietary choices onto their pets is ridiculous, as is saying someone that doesn't eat meat is a hypocrite for owning a dog that eats meat. How about you go around lecturing vegan/vegetarian parents that have non-vegetarian/vegan kids?
> 
> If someone so chooses, they can be selective of where and what kid of meat/dog food they buy, just as some people buy "free-range chicken" and things of the sort.


But a vegan is different than a vegetarian. Humans CAN be vegetarians, dogs can't or shouldn't. But a Vegan will not use anything that is made with any type of animal products: leather shoes, milk, eggs, perfume or other products where animal-testing is used. How can such a one as that maintain a dog? 

A vegetarian chooses not to eat meat, no problem with that whatsoever. I don't have a problem with people that don't want to use ANY animal products whatsoever -- Vegans either, so long as they don't want me to follow suit. But if they are a Vegan, how can they justify using animal products for their dog? 

And it fits this conversation, as this person does not believe that ANY life is higher than ANY OTHER life. So how does that work. If the chickens that lay the eggs are no better than your dog's life, how can you feed your dog eggs or chicken? And I MUST feel my life is more important than the cows, pigs, chickens, and fish that I ingest or use in other ways, so why would I believe my dog's life is as important as a human's life. 

I see vegetarians as people who find that eating no meat is healthier for them, and while I may admire them for that, I like beef, pork, and chicken, and feed meat to my dogs as well.


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## selzer

vicky2200 said:


> As stated, this topic has been gone over and over a million times. Here's my opinion: He has never hurt an animal. *He never does anything worse than a mother dog would do to a pup*. The Alpha mindset can be taken too far by some, but the idea behind it works if done properly. Although I say I am my dog's owners, I really don't think of it that way. They mean a great deal to me, so I do everything I can for their betterment. However, I realize that being a human, with a human brain, I have dominion over animals. I do not think that this makes me better, but it is a great thing because I can protect the animals and provide for them. I also acknowledge that they do a lot for me, but in the long run I know what is best for them so they need to listen to me.


Do you actually raise puppies? 

I do.

I have this bitch, she is just so kool, great dam. She has had a young bitch in with her up to the time that she was ready to give birth to her next litter. And I was watching close, as a pregnant bitch can be a bit testy with anything that might hurt her pups. Hepsi was nearly a year old when I separated her from her dam, and she NEVER did anything close to what Cesar does to dogs. 

Jenna has two six month old bitch pups in with her now. When Karma starts playing rough with Kaiah, Jenna grabs the back of her collar and pulls her away. She does not _scruff _her or use her mouth on her neck or anything of the sort. She plays with the puppies, and lets them walk all over her. 

I have other dams who are similar in how they treat young puppies. Generally I do not leave them with the dam for close to a year though. Evenso, I have never witnessed a dam acting in anyway like Cesar. I do not see them pinning their puppies, and I do not see them scruffing them either. At most a dam might give them a bit of noise.


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## DaniFani

selzer said:


> Do you actually raise puppies?
> 
> I do.
> 
> I have this bitch, she is just so kool, great dam. She has had a young bitch in with her up to the time that she was ready to give birth to her next litter. And I was watching close, as a pregnant bitch can be a bit testy with anything that might hurt her pups. Hepsi was nearly a year old when I separated her from her dam, and she NEVER did anything close to what Cesar does to dogs.
> 
> Jenna has two six month old bitch pups in with her now. When Karma starts playing rough with Kaiah, Jenna grabs the back of her collar and pulls her away. She does not _scruff _her or use her mouth on her neck or anything of the sort. She plays with the puppies, and lets them walk all over her.
> 
> I have other dams who are similar in how they treat young puppies. Generally I do not leave them with the dam for close to a year though. Evenso, I have never witnessed a dam acting in anyway like Cesar. I do not see them pinning their puppies, and I do not see them scruffing them either. At most a dam might give them a bit of noise.


Haha, I've witnessed a few whelpings from a friend of mine who breeds working Rotties (beautiful sport dogs), and it wasn't the mother that let the pups know when they were going too far, but the other puppies. I watched some 7-9 week old puppies go at each other and sounding pretty freaking vicious(growling, snarling, pinning, etc). Seems to me that puppies learn just as much, if not more, from the reactions of their litter-mates, than their mamas, and those reactions sound/seem crazy lol....but what do I know? ;-)


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## selzer

DaniFani said:


> Haha, I've witnessed a few whelpings from a friend of mine who breeds working Rotties (beautiful sport dogs), and it wasn't the mother that let the pups know when they were going too far, but the other puppies. I watched some 7-9 week old puppies go at each other and sounding pretty freaking vicious(growling, snarling, pinning, etc). Seems to me that puppies learn just as much, if not more, from the reactions of their litter-mates, than their mamas, and those reactions sound/seem crazy lol....but what do I know? ;-)


Oh definitely, one day you wake up to the sound of a cornered beast in the whelping box and you run out there and it is a baby puppy! It is amazing to just sit there and watch a good dam with her pups of all ages though. I hate it when people compare a dam with Cesar, because that isn't my experience at all.

A good bitch is way more gentle and tolerant than their human counterparts.

And yes, even if a bitch is dried up, or rejects a litter, it is still better for the puppies to be with their littermates until 7-8 weeks because of what they learn from them. The bitch can be removed by 6-7 weeks, but the pups should remain together at this time. I generally leave the bitch with the puppies because they seem to adjust just fine, either way, and my bitches tend to like puppies.


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## MiaMoo

selzer said:


> But a vegan is different than a vegetarian. Humans CAN be vegetarians, dogs can't or shouldn't. But a Vegan will not use anything that is made with any type of animal products: leather shoes, milk, eggs, perfume or other products where animal-testing is used. How can such a one as that maintain a dog?


Yes, you are completely right, vegans do not use animal products. *Dogs do*. I am not eating the meat, the dog is. And leather shoes and perfume? I wasn't aware one needed to use cosmetics to successfully maintain a dog.



selzer said:


> A vegetarian chooses not to eat meat, no problem with that whatsoever. I don't have a problem with people that don't want to use ANY animal products whatsoever -- Vegans either, so long as they don't want me to follow suit. But if they are a Vegan, how can they justify using animal products *for their dog*?


You answered your own question. They are not eating the meat/dairy products. They are helping the dog obtain the nutrients they need to live. Are vegans not allowed to bake a cake for a non-vegan friend? Sorry, Sally, I can't make your birthday cake, that contains milk and eggs and as a vegan I am not allowed to touch the stuff without being a hypocrite.



selzer said:


> And it fits this conversation, as this person does not believe that ANY life is higher than ANY OTHER life. So how does that work. If the chickens that lay the eggs are no better than your dog's life, how can you feed your dog eggs or chicken? And I MUST feel my life is more important than the cows, pigs, chickens, and fish that I ingest or use in other ways, so why would I believe my dog's life is as important as a human's life.


Dogs aren't intelligent enough to form an opinion on the subject. Any sane person would realize that their personal beliefs do not affect their dogs beliefs. Any good dog owner is just interested in what is best for their dog, and that means meat. 



selzer said:


> I see vegetarians as people who find that eating no meat is healthier for them, and while I may admire them for that, I like beef, pork, and chicken, and feed meat to my dogs as well.


I don't think you should judge something you don't know enough about. You are basing all your judgement on assumptions. I was a vegetarian because I felt wrong for eating an animal, not because it was healthier. Some vegans choose that diet because it can also be healthier for them, not for animal rights. There are many reasons behind why someone chooses to/not to eat certain foods, and it's foolish to assume that everyone does it for the same reasons.


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## GSDolch

Lobobear44 said:


> Humans are above dogs cause why? We make stuff give shelter and such but there is way more to that than better or equal. Dogs and other species know more of them and us than we do them. humans are a disgrace so rotten to innocent creatures and show very little understanding and more misconceptions towards them. Dogs are beings if you say owner call a parent an owner of a child adopted or birth. Many vegans like me are offended to saying owner pet below than us. Ever heard no one is inferior to anyone? Animals are humans just furry we humans are furless animals. That goes for all beings. Animals attack a human is cause human was stupid and deserves it.



You talk about humans being so awful, but nature is also awful at times and can be very very ugly. When a male lion takes over a pride, he kills all the cubs so he can mate with the females to produce his own offspring. Its nature. Sharks, while inside the womb will eat each other until the strongest is left. There are some documented cases of where mother polar bears are eating their own young.

And you want to talk only about humans? Humans are no better or worse than any other thing in nature. At our core, deep deep down, we are all just a part of nature (So some people really should speak for themselves on where we come from, thanks!). We are one of the species that have a higher form of intelligence than others in the animal kingdom, this isn't a good or bad thing, but it does put us on top, giving us more responsibility for our actions in some ways I think. This doesn't mean that we have to look at an animal as a thing, do I own my dog? Yes Do I feel I am better than my dog? Not always, no. I am not a vegan, I eat meat, this does not mean that I do not respect the animals I am eating. From the beginning of time, (before humans imo) its been a circle of life...things living, things dying, things being killed. The way I see it, we are just part of the natural world, who has grown and gained more/other responsibilities than other animal counterparts.

I don't like or dislike Ceasar. I think many people mistake him for a trainer, when he is not a trainer. I also think that sometimes people overreact when they see something that they don't want to see, or something that is very close to going against their beliefs. The issue has been done to death, and all I will say is that, with any trainer or behaviorist, it should be looked at from all angles, and always with a few grains of salt.


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## boomer11

you wouldnt think a dog is on the same level as a human if you had to choose to send in either a dog or your son/daughter to clear a house with bombs in iraq. the worst behaved dogs are the ones that people humanize.


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## DaniFani

GSDolch said:


> You talk about humans being so awful, but nature is also awful at times and can be very very ugly. When a male lion takes over a pride, he kills all the cubs so he can mate with the females to produce his own offspring. Its nature. Sharks, while inside the womb will eat each other until the strongest is left. There are some documented cases of where mother polar bears are eating their own young.
> 
> And you want to talk only about humans? Humans are no better or worse than any other thing in nature. At our core, deep deep down, we are all just a part of nature (So some people really should speak for themselves on where we come from, thanks!). We are one of the species that have a higher form of intelligence than others in the animal kingdom, this isn't a good or bad thing, but it does put us on top, giving us more responsibility for our actions in some ways I think. This doesn't mean that we have to look at an animal as a thing, do I own my dog? Yes Do I feel I am better than my dog? Not always, no. I am not a vegan, I eat meat, this does not mean that I do not respect the animals I am eating. From the beginning of time, (before humans imo) its been a circle of life...things living, things dying, things being killed. The way I see it, we are just part of the natural world, who has grown and gained more/other responsibilities than other animal counterparts.
> 
> I don't like or dislike Ceasar. I think many people mistake him for a trainer, when he is not a trainer. I also think that sometimes people overreact when they see something that they don't want to see, or something that is very close to going against their beliefs. The issue has been done to death, and all I will say is that, with any trainer or behaviorist, it should be looked at from all angles, and always with a few grains of salt.


Agree on all accounts! 

I don't mean to go off on a complete tangent, I am just curious. To vegans/vegetarians that choose this lifestyle because they think it's "cruel/wrong" to eat another animal....I am curious, why is it wrong for a human to eat meat, but for another animal it is okay and accepted as "nature." I am honestly just curious, I mean absolutely no snarkiness or mean-spiritedness....I have just wondered that. My vegan/vegetarian friends do it mainly for the health-benefits (to their individual bodies) and don't do it based solely on cruelty. And then I have a friend who only eats "humanely treated/organic" animal products....which I completely understand....I just don't understand those that don't eat meat/animal products solely because they think it's wrong to eat another "animal", but are okay that in nature other animals eat meat. Just trying to understand, that's all.


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## MiaMoo

DaniFani said:


> Agree on all accounts!
> 
> I don't mean to go off on a complete tangent, I am just curious. To vegans/vegetarians that choose this lifestyle because they think it's "cruel/wrong" to eat another animal....I am curious, why is it wrong for a human to eat meat, but for another animal it is okay and accepted as "nature." I am honestly just curious, I mean absolutely no snarkiness or mean-spiritedness....I have just wondered that. My vegan/vegetarian friends do it mainly for the health-benefits (to their individual bodies) and don't do it based solely on cruelty. And then I have a friend who only eats "humanely treated/organic" animal products....which I completely understand....I just don't understand those that don't eat meat/animal products solely because they think it's wrong to eat another "animal", but are okay that in nature other animals eat meat. Just trying to understand, that's all.


Because as the above poster stated - We are the only animals that have intelligence developed enough to understand what we are doing. Some people have no problem eating a pig. Some people feel that if we don't have to eat it to survive, they shouldn't. Some people have no problem inhumanly housing and killing a pig. Some people will only eat the pig if it was treated right. There are people from all ends of the spectrum on this subject, it just boils down to one person's opinion. Whether or not another person understands the reasoning behind their personal choice is unimportant.


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## Merciel

GSDolch said:


> Humans are no better or worse than any other thing in nature.


With this I don't agree. We have the capacity for higher moral reasoning and the capability to transform our entire world in ways no other animal could imagine.

That gives us the power to be considerably better, and considerably worse, than any other thing in nature.

Maybe it's because I've been a prosecutor in Philly for going on seven years now, but nope, never gonna convince me there's anything worse out there than a human being.


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## Rangers_mom

Back to cesar... I have only watched a few episodes of his show but my biggest complaint is that he didn't seem to solve any real problems with the dogs. In cases where the owners were, well I will just come out and say it, stupid, he makes inroads and the dogs are better. But when the owners aren't nutty and the dos have real problems I really didn't see a marked improvement.

Once again let me reiterate that I have only watched a couple episodes of the dog whisperer.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Two statements in blue are contradictory IMO.

Actually we don't have as much capacity for reasoning (moral or otherwise) as we'd like to believe. Research Bias Science (look up optimism bias which I also like to call the 'I'm never wrong' bias and confirmation bias) which is not just psychology, it's hard wired in-the-brain scan-able, reproducible empirical data sets showing we human beans are far more knee jerk instinctive then we previously thought.


On topic in general, I'm with Dani....this again? (btw just a heads up in case folks don't know the OP is young, teenager)




Merciel said:


> With this I don't agree. We have the capacity for higher moral reasoning and the capability to transform our entire world in ways no other animal could imagine.
> 
> That gives us the power to be considerably better, and considerably worse, than any other thing in nature.
> 
> Maybe it's because I've been a prosecutor in Philly for going on seven years now, but nope, never gonna convince me there's anything worse out there than a human being.


----------



## Kaimeju

I have a friend who is kind of obsessed with the dog whisperer show. My fiance picked up some bad habits from it and started getting into stare downs with my dog, then was all freaked out when she started barking at him. I don't like that it spreads misinformation about canine body language and I REALLY don't like it that they describe Millan as a "behaviorist." He has a very narrow and incomplete understanding of how dogs work, just based on the show alone, and his methods from episode to episode are very cookie cutter. Sometimes they are underwhelming but the show tries to make him appear like a lion tamer through narration, like in this clip: 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CZsaEF30rdI&desktop_uri=/watch?v=CZsaEF30rdI

These people come to him with very common, solvable problems and it is obvious they didn't try to educate themselves at all before bringing in the big guns. 

That said, how much of the show's ridiculousness is just editing for entertainment? Are Cesar's books any better, and are there any clearer sources than the dog whisperer show for demonstrating how he is with his own dogs on a day to day basis? If you take out the crappy narration, a lot of what he says is just good simple advice. I guess my problem is really with the show and not so much with Millan. There are many trainers out there that aren't so great, most just don't have a TV show. 


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----------



## Merciel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Two statements in blue are contradictory IMO.


Nah, not contradictory, although I did skip over a couple of pretty important links in the chain. 

To have the capacity to do good and choose to do evil makes you morally culpable. If you do not have the choice, then you cannot be a moral creature. If you do have the choice and you decide to be a jerk, well, then in my view you are way worse than an unreasoning shark eating the other fetal sharks.

Some (hopefully most?) people make better choices and I don't encounter them in my job. But I spend my days dealing with people like the woman who shot a guy because the guy's son had bumped into her 12-year-old during a dance contest and caused her kid to lose. Whee.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

You would think, that by now, we wouldn't need prosecutors....shark analogy doesn't fit else they would be extinct by now..we're better then we used to be? Maybe...but our technology is clearly out running our ability to humanely manage it....but that's another topic for another forum. 

Beam me up Scotty.



Merciel said:


> Nah, not contradictory, although I did skip over a couple of pretty important links in the chain.
> 
> To have the capacity to do good and choose to do evil makes you morally culpable. If you do not have the choice, then you cannot be a moral creature. If you do have the choice and you decide to be a jerk, well, then in my view you are way worse than an unreasoning shark eating the other fetal sharks.
> 
> Some (hopefully most?) people make better choices and I don't encounter them in my job. But I spend my days dealing with people like the woman who shot a guy because the guy's son had bumped into her 12-year-old during a dance contest and caused her kid to lose. Whee.


----------



## kjdreyer

DaniFani said:


> I just don't understand those that don't eat meat/animal products solely because they think it's wrong to eat another "animal", but are okay that in nature other animals eat meat. Just trying to understand, that's all.


I think that SOME people (not everyone, obviously, or the word prostelytize wouldn't be in the dictionary  which I had to look up to spell full disclosure!) make a decision for themselves, and don't spend any energy judging or trying to change other people's beliefs or mores, never mind venturing into other species' lifestyles. Live and let live!


----------



## DaniFani

MiaMoo said:


> Because as the above poster stated - We are the only animals that have intelligence developed enough to understand what we are doing. Some people have no problem eating a pig. Some people feel that if we don't have to eat it to survive, they shouldn't. Some people have no problem inhumanly housing and killing a pig. Some people will only eat the pig if it was treated right. There are people from all ends of the spectrum on this subject, it just boils down to one person's opinion. *Whether or not another person understands the reasoning behind their personal choice is unimportant*.


Woah, not sure why you have such a snarky tone here, I was just curious. I was a vegetarian for awhile, but woke up one morning deciding I didn't want to anymore and that was that. I just did it to see if I felt healthier...I didn't....especially when I was sick and/or fighting off a cold or anything...it seemed to take much longer to feel healthy agin. But that's just *my* body. I think it's good to try and understand *why* people do the things they do, it's what separates us from the animals ;-) I think it's rather pompous to not take the time to explain something to someone, especially someone who is genuinely interested in the subject. But, whatever.


----------



## DaniFani

kjdreyer said:


> *I think that SOME people* (not everyone, obviously, or the word prostelytize wouldn't be in the dictionary  which I had to look up to spell full disclosure!) make a decision for themselves, and don't spend any energy judging or trying to change other people's beliefs or mores, never mind venturing into other species' lifestyles. Live and let live!


Woah woah woah! Lol, not sure if the judging comment was directed at me, but since you quoted me I'll respond. I said several times I was genuinely curious, and not at all trying to be snarky or mean-spirited. My goodness, no reason to jump on the defense so fast....makes people suspicious...lol...What's wrong with asking questions to try and understand someone's dieting decision? If it's that delicate of a topic why even bring it up on an internet forum, let alone continue a discussion on it....would you rather a person just sit back in judging ignorance, or that they actually try to genuinely understand someone/something....guess it's a lose-lose situation with people like you....darned if I do-darned if I don't.....

The bolded part, I didn't think I was dealing with *some people* I thought I was dealing with someone who had already voiced their opinions on their dieting habits and since they were actively discussing the topic I thought they'd be willing to explain some things....that's all....no attacking or judgement here....just curiosity....Lord forgive me ;-)


----------



## DaniFani

Merciel said:


> With this I don't agree. We have the capacity for higher moral reasoning and the capability to transform our entire world in ways no other animal could imagine.
> 
> That gives us the power to be considerably better, and considerably worse, than any other thing in nature.
> 
> Maybe it's because I've been a prosecutor in Philly for going on seven years now, but nope, *never gonna convince me there's anything worse out there than a human being.*


While I agree that you don't really get worse than some of our fellow species members out there...I prefer to look at it a little more optimistically....while, yes, we have the greatest evil, I think you can go to the other extreme and say we have the greatest good too. I know and love many many amazing, human beings, that make the world a better place....I've also been involved with LE and seen some pretty terrible child abuse, domestic abuse, etc....that could easily taint my view to yours, but I try to believe in humanity....call me a hopeless romantic, lol.

I also don't think you can compare human beings to any other "animal," I think it's like comparing a chimp to a dandelion.....you just can't compare them. But that's just my thoughts 

Haha, not sure how we got here from original Cesar Millan lol


----------



## kjdreyer

No, no, the word judging wasn't directed at you, although I can see I shouldn't have capitalized "some" people cause that does sound snarky, sorry! No, I was just trying to say that people can make any kind of decision for themselves -diet, religion, etc etc and not have to impose it on, say other species' diets or other peoples' beliefs. That doesn't in any way make their belief hypocritical, in my opinion. I actually much prefer that people carry their own beliefs and opinions without trying to compel others to share them as well. Not quite sure what you meant by "people like you" however, I'm neither a vegan nor a proselytizer!


----------



## DaniFani

kjdreyer said:


> No, no, the word judging wasn't directed at you, although I can see I shouldn't have capitalized "some" people cause that does sound snarky, sorry! No, I was just trying to say that people can make any kind of decision for themselves -diet, religion, etc etc and not have to impose it on, say other species' diets or other peoples' beliefs. That doesn't in any way make their belief hypocritical, in my opinion. I actually much prefer that people carry their own beliefs and opinions without trying to compel others to share them as well. Not quite sure what you meant by "people like you" however, I'm neither a vegan nor a proselytizer!


Haha, no worries....sorry for the "people like you" I was reading your post in a different light than you now clarified and I got a little defensive myself lol.


----------



## DaniFani

Merceil,

I've been thinking about it. I think the problem is my POV is that you should not compare humans to animals (dogs in particular because we are on a dog forum lol). But I believe that goes both ways. You can't say a dog does no wrong (I mean general "you"), has no moral code, and is all nature, but then say, "my dog loves me" "my dog is ashamed for eating the garbage" "my dog thinks it's funny when I try and get him to do something"....all of these things "love, shame, humor" they are human-only traits..just like "vengeance, hate, greed, guilt" are all *human* traits and characteristics. When you interpret canine gestures with "human" qualifications, *I* believe you do a dis-service to the animal. You muddle the line between human expectations and animal expectations. I don't expect my dog to "get mad" when someone is threatening me....I do expect him to realize a member of his pack is being threatened, and that he can possibly diffuse that situation via signals/gestures...snarling, barking, lunging, etc....but I don't attribute those reactions to "anger" or "love" for me....it's nature, and a natural reaction....it may seem callus of me, but I am talking from a scientific/non-emotional POV.

Now the emotional/non-scientific side of me thinks, "my dog loves the crap out of me and I him. And he will protect me to the end of the earth" ;-) Now which is reality is really in the perspective of the beholder.


----------



## Merciel

Kaimeju said:


> Are Cesar's books any better, and are there any clearer sources than the dog whisperer show for demonstrating how he is with his own dogs on a day to day basis?


In my opinion, no, not really.

They're all kind of the same thing: project "calm assertive energy" (without much of a breakdown in how exactly the reader is meant to accomplish this), make sure your dog gets enough exercise, etc. Some of it is good-but-basic info, some is vague woowoo, none of it is IMO anything you wouldn't get from watching the TV show.

Granted I only read one book and skimmed through a couple of others on bookstore shelves, so it's entirely possible I overlooked something, but what I did read was not tremendously impressive to me.


----------



## Kaimeju

Have any of you read Mark Bekoff's book, Wild Justice? He makes a good case for the underpinnings of morality being rooted in survival and non-human animal social rules. I think ANY species will do what we consider to be atrocious acts when certain constraints are removed. When wolves are confronted with a flock of penned sheep, they may maim many of them without finishing the kill because the stakes are fairly low, causing needless suffering. You see the same thing with humans, wrecking our environment because so far nothing has stopped us. The cultures that have an intense respect or even worship of animals tend to have a life or death relationship with them. I guess I don't see humans as being that different, aside from our ability to use abstract language to talk about future consequences. This allows "moral" drama to play out in more complicated ways, because we can envision more complex possibilities and connections between behavior and consequences...

This is a really interesting discussion!


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----------



## DaniFani

Kaimeju said:


> Have any of you read Mark Bekoff's book, Wild Justice? He makes a good case for the underpinnings of morality being rooted in survival and non-human animal social rules. I think ANY species will do what we consider to be atrocious acts when certain constraints are removed. When wolves are confronted with a flock of penned sheep, they may maim many of them without finishing the kill because the stakes are fairly low, causing needless suffering. You see the same thing with humans, wrecking our environment because so far nothing has stopped us. The cultures that have an intense respect or even worship of animals tend to have a life or death relationship with them. I guess I don't see humans as being that different, aside from our ability to use abstract language to talk about future consequences. This allows "moral" drama to play out in more complicated ways, because we can envision more complex possibilities and connections between behavior and consequences...
> 
> This is a really interesting discussion!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No, I will def have to find that book. I love this topic! I think some of the debate boils down to humanizing non-human animals. Attaching human emotion to their behaviors. Even terms such as "brother, mother, father" aren't used in scientific studies because as humans we automatically attach our emotions and feelings with those words...."dog-brothers" invokes a "human-relationship" when used to describe non-human animals. 

The example you give of the wolves maiming sheep, essentially, "just because they can." It may be discussed in the book, so sorry if I am grabbing at straws...but couldn't it be hypothesized that they maimed the others to make them even more "available" when/if the time comes. A wolf, who hunts on an "as-needed" basis, and may go days without eating, simply because there is no food available....may come across something as big as a herd of penned sheep, and want to make sure that whatever it doesn't get to, will always be available. We attach our human emotions of "suffering, atrocity, and needless-death" to this situation, where a wolf sees it purely from a survival standpoint....what's better than 100 penned sheep? Maybe 100 injured, penned, sheep....I don't know...just thinking out loud.


----------



## MiaMoo

DaniFani said:


> Woah, not sure why you have such a snarky tone here, I was just curious. I was a vegetarian for awhile, but woke up one morning deciding I didn't want to anymore and that was that. I just did it to see if I felt healthier...I didn't....especially when I was sick and/or fighting off a cold or anything...it seemed to take much longer to feel healthy agin. But that's just *my* body. I think it's good to try and understand *why* people do the things they do, it's what separates us from the animals ;-) *I think it's rather pompous to not take the time to explain something to someone, especially someone who is genuinely interested in the subject.* But, whatever.


That wasn't meant to come off as snarky, it was a genuine statement. 
And I don't think any person would tell someone 'no' that was really interested in learning about it, but most people are not interested in learning about why. Like the person that had been posting above, they don't understand so they judge, sometimes rather harshly. When I didn't eat meat, I never got people genuinely wanting to know why I chose not to eat meat, it was always along the lines of, "Why on earth would you do that? That's stupid. Meat is awesome." And those people I don't care enough to try to explain why, because they don't care. That's not being "pompous", that's not wasting my time on someone that is just going to nitpick my reasons.


----------



## DaniFani

MiaMoo said:


> That wasn't meant to come off as snarky, it was a genuine statement.
> And I don't think any person would tell someone 'no' that was really interested in learning about it, but most people are not interested in learning about why. Like the person that had been posting above, they don't understand so they judge, sometimes rather harshly. When I didn't eat meat, I never got people genuinely wanting to know why I chose not to eat meat, it was always along the lines of, "Why on earth would you do that? That's stupid. Meat is awesome." And those people I don't care enough to try to explain why, because they don't care. That's not being "pompous", that's not wasting my time on someone that is just going to nitpick my reasons.


Well, I am honestly interested in vegetarian/vegan diets...truly. I think it's partly that I wish I could do it, actually. I did it for 7 months, and while I found that I didn't catch colds, or get sick much, the two times I got a cold I felt like it took longer for me to get over it. Maybe I didn't give it long enough. I really don't eat a whole lot of meat. My husband is a big meat eater, but I just don't like the taste much....and when I do eat meat I kind of douse it in spices and sauces lol. I'm a big veggie person though, steamed veggies are my favorite!! So I think about it mainly from a health/diet standpoint and I am always interested in people who do it for other reasons (along with the health side of course).


----------



## MadLab

> Are Cesar's books any better, and are there any clearer sources than the dog whisperer show for demonstrating how he is with his own dogs on a day to day basis?


'Cesar's way' is definitely a good representation of CM's philosophies and ideas. You basically get a scattering of his methods in the show. Some show may deal with certain issues but the book provides his whole vision of how a dog should be cared for in his opinion. 

After reading his book I find the show more interesting to watch too as i understand why he is doing what he is doing in most cases. I trust his judgement with regard to reading a dogs energy and have seen how his theories and ideas and observations on behavior can change pack mentality in my own experience with dogs.

He makes mistakes as well but the fact he shows these on air tells me he doesn't have much to hide. Anybody would make mistakes if they jumped in as many scenarios as CM. Most positive only trainers wouldn't touch a high percentage of cesar's cases.


----------



## Kaimeju

DaniFani said:


> The example you give of the wolves maiming sheep, essentially, "just because they can." It may be discussed in the book, so sorry if I am grabbing at straws...but couldn't it be hypothesized that they maimed the others to make them even more "available" when/if the time comes. A wolf, who hunts on an "as-needed" basis, and may go days without eating, simply because there is no food available....may come across something as big as a herd of penned sheep, and want to make sure that whatever it doesn't get to, will always be available. We attach our human emotions of "suffering, atrocity, and needless-death" to this situation, where a wolf sees it purely from a survival standpoint....what's better than 100 penned sheep? Maybe 100 injured, penned, sheep....I don't know...just thinking out loud.


Oh yes, it's definitely a survival strategy! They will go after many different sheep trying to find the weakest one because it takes so little energy for them to do so. The sheep are slow compared to caribou and can be easily injured so they are testing the waters. If they are chasing caribou, they try to focus on a single animal because they are harder to injure. So yes, the point is that in either case, it's just survival from the wolf's point of view, even though they have been romanticized in the literature as "keeping the herd healthy" and so forth. 






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----------



## GSDolch

Merciel said:


> With this I don't agree. We have the capacity for higher moral reasoning and the capability to transform our entire world in ways no other animal could imagine.
> 
> That gives us the power to be considerably better, and considerably worse, than any other thing in nature.
> 
> Maybe it's because I've been a prosecutor in Philly for going on seven years now, but nope, never gonna convince me there's anything worse out there than a human being.



Next time read all my post and you will see that I mention just that, about the higher intelligence.


----------



## DaniFani

Kaimeju said:


> Oh yes, it's definitely a survival strategy! They will go after many different sheep trying to find the weakest one because it takes so little energy for them to do so. The sheep are slow compared to caribou and can be easily injured so they are testing the waters. If they are chasing caribou, they try to focus on a single animal because they are harder to injure. So yes, the point is that in either case, it's just survival from the wolf's point of view, even though they have been romanticized in the literature as "keeping the herd healthy" and so forth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


ahh, gotchya....I'll def be checking out that book! Thanks for the recommendation


----------



## Lobobear44

selzer said:


> Maybe you can answer a question for me. How can a Vegan own or be the guardian of a dog? A dog requires meat to be healthy, so the caretaker must purchase meat products for their dog -- how does that work? How is your owning a pet acceptible as it requires countless chickens, lambs, or fish to live usually in awful conditions, being raised soley to be slaughtered to feed your pet? How come the lives of those creatures are not as important as the life of your dog?


Actually, our dogs are both plant-based (there are no animal products in their diets). They are healthy as can be, just like other vegan dogs! (We were surprised to learn this was possible too -- but our vets and UCDavis were all for it!) We think that the lives of all animals -- whether human, dog, or cow -- are valuable, and refuse to cause any unnecessary suffering! Here is some information from my sister:

P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }A:link { } WHY THE WORLD IS GOING VEGAN: INTRO KIT


Health:
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html (Kaiser's docs now recommending plant-based diets (which means no animal products) to everyone!)
http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/community/gr8_health/top-5-reasons-to-eat-a-plant-based-diet
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/vegan-diet-cancer_b_2250052.html (even a little meat makes a big bad difference!)
http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/pplate/power-plate
http://vivalavegan.net/community/articles/321-interview-with-ed-bauer-champion-vegan-bodybuilder.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAkEYcmCCCk (creator of the Engine 2 diet - turned whole firehouse vegan!)


Environment:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet (Basically, an individual on a plant-based diet has 2/3 the emissions footprint, 1/3 the water consumption, and 1/4 the arable land use of the typical carcass eater! With no manure pollution either! (Google "veganic farming" to learn about how we can farm crops without toxic manure!))
http://www.nature.org/ourinitiatives/urgentissues/global-warming-climate-change/threats-impacts/index.htm
http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat
http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp


Ethics:
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/farm-to-fridge.aspx (10-minute factory farm overview (99% of USA livestock))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOWQOXeJyUM (2 min, footage of baby cows born on diary farms)




 (3 min, more footage of baby dairy-farm cows)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCcUV-Yg-bc (2 min, footage of a slaughterhouse (what we pay people to do when we buy dead flesh, no matter how "humanely raised"))




 (a thought-provoking lecture called "Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows")




 (a 10-minute extremely concise excerpt from a debate in New Zealand)
http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32 (a full documentary on all the animal industries)




 (a very influential speech on our culture of eating other animals)
^If you only watch one thing, watch this!!
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201306/universal-declaration-animal-sentience-no-pretending


Social justice: How can we fairly deserve the right to protection from those more powerful than us (which we have in a democratic society), if we exploit those powerless to us? How different from you do I have to be for my suffering to not matter?


Comedic rundown on veganism (7 min vid):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY2pLuXj6Ok


Starter Kits (bundles of info):
http://www.tryveg.com
http://vegankit.com


My family's plant-based (low processed, low gluten, no animal products) grocery list:
http://ageofequilibrium.tumblr.com/post/55155190425/challenge-go-plant-based-for-one-month


Recipes:
http://www.theppk.com
http://myvega.com/vega-life/meal-plans
http://essentialvegan.co.uk
http://mouthwateringvegan.com
http://www.compassionatecook.com
http://happyherbivore.com
http://veganyackattack.com
http://vegan2raw.blogspot.com


Healthiest dog food ever:
http://v-dog.com/
http://shop.halopets.com/Canned-Dog/dog-vegan-garden-medley-13oz
http://ageofequilibrium.tumblr.com/post/53166692156


----------



## wolfy dog

Trying to learn dog training by watching CM on TV is like preparing for child birth by watching Baby Story on TLC; useless


----------



## DaniFani

wolfy dog said:


> Trying to learn dog training by watching CM on TV is like preparing for child birth by watching Baby Story on TLC; useless


Bahahaha, as someone who gave birth to my child with no epidural....I LOVE this....lol


----------



## Lobobear44

@seizer 

Look at my comment below forgot to tag


----------



## selzer

Lobobear44 said:


> Actually, our dogs are both plant-based (there are no animal products in their diets). They are healthy as can be, just like other vegan dogs! (We were surprised to learn this was possible too -- but our vets and UCDavis were all for it!) We think that the lives of all animals -- whether human, dog, or cow -- are valuable, and refuse to cause any unnecessary suffering! Here is some information from my sister:
> 
> P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }A:link { } WHY THE WORLD IS GOING VEGAN: INTRO KIT
> 
> 
> Health:
> http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html (Kaiser's docs now recommending plant-based diets (which means no animal products) to everyone!)
> http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/community/gr8_health/top-5-reasons-to-eat-a-plant-based-diet
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/vegan-diet-cancer_b_2250052.html (even a little meat makes a big bad difference!)
> http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/pplate/power-plate
> http://vivalavegan.net/community/articles/321-interview-with-ed-bauer-champion-vegan-bodybuilder.html
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAkEYcmCCCk (creator of the Engine 2 diet - turned whole firehouse vegan!)
> 
> 
> Environment:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet (Basically, an individual on a plant-based diet has 2/3 the emissions footprint, 1/3 the water consumption, and 1/4 the arable land use of the typical carcass eater! With no manure pollution either! (Google "veganic farming" to learn about how we can farm crops without toxic manure!))
> http://www.nature.org/ourinitiatives/urgentissues/global-warming-climate-change/threats-impacts/index.htm
> http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat
> http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp
> 
> 
> Ethics:
> http://www.mercyforanimals.org/farm-to-fridge.aspx (10-minute factory farm overview (99% of USA livestock))
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOWQOXeJyUM (2 min, footage of baby cows born on diary farms)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNBRJIH97gc (3 min, more footage of baby dairy-farm cows)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCcUV-Yg-bc (2 min, footage of a slaughterhouse (what we pay people to do when we buy dead flesh, no matter how "humanely raised"))
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF2fclIcXLs (a thought-provoking lecture called "Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows")
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCe4qEexjc (a 10-minute extremely concise excerpt from a debate in New Zealand)
> http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32 (a full documentary on all the animal industries)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4 (a very influential speech on our culture of eating other animals)
> ^If you only watch one thing, watch this!!
> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201306/universal-declaration-animal-sentience-no-pretending
> 
> 
> Social justice: How can we fairly deserve the right to protection from those more powerful than us (which we have in a democratic society), if we exploit those powerless to us? How different from you do I have to be for my suffering to not matter?
> 
> 
> Comedic rundown on veganism (7 min vid):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY2pLuXj6Ok
> 
> 
> Starter Kits (bundles of info):
> http://www.tryveg.com
> http://vegankit.com
> 
> 
> My family's plant-based (low processed, low gluten, no animal products) grocery list:
> http://ageofequilibrium.tumblr.com/post/55155190425/challenge-go-plant-based-for-one-month
> 
> 
> Recipes:
> http://www.theppk.com
> http://myvega.com/vega-life/meal-plans
> http://essentialvegan.co.uk
> http://mouthwateringvegan.com
> http://www.compassionatecook.com
> http://happyherbivore.com
> http://veganyackattack.com
> http://vegan2raw.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> Healthiest dog food ever:
> http://v-dog.com/
> http://shop.halopets.com/Canned-Dog/dog-vegan-garden-medley-13oz
> http://ageofequilibrium.tumblr.com/post/53166692156


I am sorry, but I would fire a vet that said a dog did not need meat. 

I am closed-minded on this topic. So I did not look at the many links. There just isn't anything I will ever believe about our carnivores being raised with no animal-based protein. 

I guess you can feed your dog tofu and call yourself his guardian. I will feed the dogs I own chickens and eggs. I don't think either of us will change the other.


----------



## Nigel

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but I would fire a vet that said a dog did not need meat.
> 
> I am closed-minded on this topic. So I did not look at the many links. There just isn't anything I will ever believe about our carnivores being raised with no animal-based protein.
> 
> I guess you can feed your dog tofu and call yourself his guardian. I will feed the dogs I own chickens and eggs. I don't think either of us will change the other.


I agree, when I see a pack of wolves or coyotes mowing down on alfalfa and soy beans, maybe then I'll considerate it for my my dogs


----------



## MiaMoo

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but I would fire a vet that said a dog did not need meat.
> 
> I am closed-minded on this topic. So I did not look at the many links. There just isn't anything I will ever believe about our carnivores being raised with no animal-based protein.
> 
> I guess you can feed your dog tofu and call yourself his guardian. I will feed the dogs I own chickens and eggs. I don't think either of us will change the other.


That is something I can agree with 100%. I would never feed my dog anything vegetarian/vegan, and I personally think it's foolish to believe that a dog can live healthily on that diet.


----------



## NancyJ

I am sorry but we do the dog a lot more justice when we respect it for what it is physically and temperamentally.


----------



## Merciel

GSDolch said:


> Next time read all my post and you will see that I mention just that, about the higher intelligence.


I actually thought about prefacing my post with a disclaimer that I don't think we really disagree, but I was going to pick out that one line and manufacture a fake disagreement anyway for the sake of blathering about it.

Probably I should go ahead and say that in the future when I do it.


----------



## Merciel

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but I would fire a vet that said a dog did not need meat.


Just for the sake of noting that "for every rule there's an exception," while I totally agree with you about dogs generally needing meat, here's the tale of a dog who, because of a rare congenital liver disease, not only doesn't _need_ meat but can't eat it without going insane and eventually dying: team small dog: A dog so special he just gots some extra liver action going on.

In this case I think the vet who said the dog couldn't have meat was acting quite reasonably.


----------



## Lobobear44

Nigel said:


> I agree, when I see a pack of wolves or coyotes mowing down on alfalfa and soy beans, maybe then I'll considerate it for my my dogs


@Nigel

Studies have shown that is because of necessary survival. Humans are not meant to eat meat either. You see a squirrel your impulse would jump run at it grab it by your jaws tear it raw and gobble it up. Put a baby in a crib with a live bunny and an apple what will it choose. Also studies shown meat gives the most health problems for heart disease cancer and other. Vegans are unlikey to get these than meat eaters. Look at pokemon they are all vegan including the pokemon.


----------



## Sunflowers

If we were not meant to eat meat, no humans would eat it.


----------



## blackshep

Lobo, much information can be gained simply by looking at an animal's teeth.

Humans are omnivores. Look at our teeth, compared to a horse's, compared to a dogs. Think about how they work to chew food and what type of food. And look at the digestive tract and how it works.

Raising a dog as a vegan is an insane idea IMO. Get a hamster next time, if you can't stand the thought of your pet eating meat, the way it's meant to.


----------



## Lobobear44

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but I would fire a vet that said a dog did not need meat.
> 
> I am closed-minded on this topic. So I did not look at the many links. There just isn't anything I will ever believe about our carnivores being raised with no animal-based protein.
> 
> I guess you can feed your dog tofu and call yourself his guardian. I will feed the dogs I own chickens and eggs. I don't think either of us will change the other.


@seizer

We been raised to believe the myth but as children we don't know that the steak on our plate is a carcass or a dead thing once living. If they knew kids would refuse. Sure dogs can eat meat but studies proven they can go vegan and live healthy lives. Riley and Millie been vegan for a month and are healthier than before. Riley used to not eat even with meat but vegan he eats it better than the meat. We want unnecessary suffering for animals. Watch the speeches you'l


----------



## Lobobear44

Sunflowers said:


> If we were not meant to eat meat, no humans would eat it.


@Sunflowers

Again put a toddler in a cage with a live chicken and an apple what will it eat? That tells you if we really are meant to eat meat. Or if we saw a squirrel or a deer impulse would be to run at him grab him with jaws rip him to shreds and eat them raw.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> We been raised to believe the myth but as children we don't know that *the steak on our plate is a carcass or a dead thing once living.
> *
> So was that carrot or apple you prefer to eat.
> 
> I don't think anyone here questions your choice but if you keep trying to convert people eventually they will get angry.
> 
> So go in peace and enjoy whatever vegetable or fruit you are going to kill in order to sustain you.


----------



## NancyJ

The impulse of the dog would be to do just that. (kill and eat the prey)
Can you reference some viable studies that show long lived, healthy, vegan dogs?

If I felt it was TRULY healthier for a dog to eat a Vegan life style I would be right there as I abhor the practices behind commercial meat production, but how many posts do we have from members in India (where a healthy vegetarian lifesytle is embranced) struggling with the health of their dogs.

Becker at Mercola is very much holistic and alternative and is also opposed to vegetarian diets for dogs. They are designed by nature to eat meat even if they can survive as omnivores.

Ellen DeGeneres' Vegan Dog Food Is NOT Advisable


----------



## Shade

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> We been raised to believe the myth but as children we don't know that the steak on our plate is a carcass or a dead thing once living. If they knew kids would refuse. Sure dogs can eat meat but studies proven they can go vegan and live healthy lives. Riley and Millie been vegan for a month and are healthier than before. Riley used to not eat even with meat but vegan he eats it better than the meat. We want unnecessary suffering for animals. Watch the speeches you'l


Not at all, I still remember my brother who's the baby in the family learning for the first thing that the chicken on his plate actually was "buk buks" as he refered to them. He was upset as he fully understood what he was eating but the next time chicken was served he ate it no problem.

I eat meat, and my family owns a farm and raises chickens, turkeys, and sheep for meat. We feed and care for the animals and slaughter the chickens and turkeys ourselves and send the lambs off to the butcher for slaughter. It's not pretty or fun and none of us look forward to those days but we do what needs to be done.

The point is, the dog doesn't have the choice of what it eats when you feed it. A dog is meant to eat meat and feeding it otherwise *unless* there is a valid medical reason signed off on by a *vet* then I would completely disagree with feeding a dog a vegan diet. It's not natural in any way

Most children if you give them a choice between a chicken nugget and brussel sprouts will choose the chicken nugget. I've met more children that hated vegetables then liked them


----------



## GSDolch

Lobobear44 said:


> @Sunflowers
> 
> Again put a toddler in a cage with a *live chicken and an apple* what will it eat? That tells you if we really are meant to eat meat. Or if we saw a squirrel or a deer impulse would be to run at him grab him with jaws rip him to shreds and eat them raw.



You have got to be kidding me. Do you really believe what you say or are you just pulling stuff out from thin air?

At no time in history, from the beginning of the world, is any baby/toddler/young child going to be any type of hunter. Of COURSE its going to go for the apple, IF it is able to chew through the skin. Lots of toddlers wont chew the skin until later because its sometimes to tough for them to eat it.

You comparison is...wow, just...wow.

If you put any young thing that can't fend for itself with a live chicken and apple, they are going to go for the apple, or starve...be it human, wolf, bear, tiger...

Toddlers of many species need to be taken care of by someone or the wont live. That doesn't prove that we do not need meat to live.


----------



## GSDolch

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> We been raised to believe the myth b*ut as children we don't know that the steak on our plate is a carcass or a dead thing once living.* If they knew kids would refuse. Sure dogs can eat meat but studies proven they can go vegan and live healthy lives. Riley and Millie been vegan for a month and are healthier than before. Riley used to not eat even with meat but vegan he eats it better than the meat. We want unnecessary suffering for animals. Watch the speeches you'l



People really need to stop speaking for the masses.

Speak for yourself there buddy. I have four kids and all of them have known since they were able to ask the question, that the meat on our plate is from an animal.

When my oldest was four, we were driving by a herd of cattle..she looked at one and said "Mommy, I want to eat that one! He looks good and fat and could feed a lot of hungry people."


----------



## GSDolch

Shade said:


> Most children if you give them a choice between a chicken nugget and brussel sprouts will choose the chicken nugget. I've met more children that hated vegetables then liked them



Its taken me 16 years, but I finally won one battle out of 4. My daughter likes and picks out her own veggies/fruits she wants with dinner.

Now if only it were that easy with the rest of them. lol


----------



## GSDolch

Merciel said:


> I actually thought about prefacing my post with a disclaimer that I don't think we really disagree, but I was going to pick out that one line and manufacture a fake disagreement anyway for the sake of blathering about it.
> 
> Probably I should go ahead and say that in the future when I do it.



Ah, its all good. I do it also sometimes. Especially if I'm in a hurry and my fingers are going faster than the brain. lol.


----------



## DaniFani

Lobobear44 said:


> @Sunflowers
> 
> Again put a toddler in a cage with a live chicken and an apple what will it eat? That tells you if we really are meant to eat meat. Or if we saw a squirrel or a deer impulse would be to run at him grab him with jaws rip him to shreds and eat them raw.


I dunno....when my kid was going through the "put everything in my mouth" stage...I'd say it'd be a 50/50 chance he'd put a live chicken in his mouth lol. Just would depend on what was closer and easier to get in his mouth...


----------



## Lobobear44

Jack's Dad said:


> Lobobear44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @seizer
> 
> We been raised to believe the myth but as children we don't know that *the steak on our plate is a carcass or a dead thing once living.
> *
> So was that carrot or apple you prefer to eat.
> 
> I don't think anyone here questions your choice but if you keep trying to convert people eventually they will get angry.
> 
> So go in peace and enjoy whatever vegetable or fruit you are going to kill in order to sustain you.
> 
> 
> 
> Not converting anyone just giving out info and what I learned from a bunch of sources research speeches and witnessing horrifying suffering of animals.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lobobear44

jocoyn said:


> The impulse of the dog would be to do just that. (kill and eat the prey)
> Can you reference some viable studies that show long lived, healthy, vegan dogs?
> 
> If I felt it was TRULY healthier for a dog to eat a Vegan life style I would be right there as I abhor the practices behind commercial meat production, but how many posts do we have from members in India (where a healthy vegetarian lifesytle is embranced) struggling with the health of their dogs.
> 
> Becker at Mercola is very much holistic and alternative and is also opposed to vegetarian diets for dogs. They are designed by nature to eat meat even if they can survive as omnivores.
> 
> Ellen DeGeneres' Vegan Dog Food Is NOT Advisable


Look at the links below and read them those are the references.


----------



## Lobobear44

GSDolch said:


> You have got to be kidding me. Do you really believe what you say or are you just pulling stuff out from thin air?
> 
> At no time in history, from the beginning of the world, is any baby/toddler/young child going to be any type of hunter. Of COURSE its going to go for the apple, IF it is able to chew through the skin. Lots of toddlers wont chew the skin until later because its sometimes to tough for them to eat it.
> 
> You comparison is...wow, just...wow.
> 
> If you put any young thing that can't fend for itself with a live chicken and apple, they are going to go for the apple, or starve...be it human, wolf, bear, tiger...
> 
> Toddlers of many species need to be taken care of by someone or the wont live. That doesn't prove that we do not need meat to live.


@GSDolch

Watch the speeches from those links read sources and you will see.


----------



## Nigel

Use your own analogy and put a german shepherd in an apple orchard that also happens to have ample supply of rabbits, squirrel, and other critters and see which it will eat. My 3 gsds will not touch fruits and veggies of any kind, I've tried. My lab would eat carrots and huckleberries, but she's the only one, the rest act as if its poison. Dogs are primarily carnivores period. Eat what you want, thats fine, but subjecting a dog to a vegan goes against nature imop.




Lobobear44 said:


> @Nigel
> 
> Studies have shown that is because of necessary survival. Humans are not meant to eat meat either. You see a squirrel your impulse would jump run at it grab it by your jaws tear it raw and gobble it up. Put a baby in a crib with a live bunny and an apple what will it choose. Also studies shown meat gives the most health problems for heart disease cancer and other. Vegans are unlikey to get these than meat eaters. Look at pokemon they are all vegan including the pokemon.


----------



## Arlene/Archer

Heh, vegan dogs, I've heard it all now. I watched Archer stalking rabbits this morning shortly after dawn. One broke cover, flash of white tail and it was on- the very definition of prey drive kicked in. He didn't catch it, but had he that rabbit was breakfast.


----------



## GSDolch

Lobobear44 said:


> @GSDolch
> 
> Watch the speeches from those links read sources and you will see.



Its a load of hogwash.

Sorry.


----------



## Dainerra

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> We been raised to believe the myth but as children we don't know that the steak on our plate is a carcass or a dead thing once living. If they knew kids would refuse. l


Not true at all. I've known since I could talk/walk that the meat on my plate was from a living animal. For the entire history of mankind, until the move to the cities and manufactured foods in the recent past, children ALWAYS knew where their food came from. They watched the babies born in the spring, watched them grow during the summer and helped with the feeding and care, and in the fall they helped with the butchering and preserving of the meat.


----------



## Dainerra

I will agree that many factory farms, commercial feedlots, and industrial-line butchers ARE the definition of suffering. However, that is not, nor should it EVER, be the norm in meat production. 
It is really not hard at all to purchase meat from known sources that is well-cared for and slaughtered humanely.


----------



## Dainerra

Arlene/Archer said:


> Heh, vegan dogs, I've heard it all now. I watched Archer stalking rabbits this morning shortly after dawn. One broke cover, flash of white tail and it was on- the very definition of prey drive kicked in. He didn't catch it, but had he that rabbit was breakfast.


what is sad is that there are people who try to raise their CATS on a vegan diet. Dogs can live on a vegetarian diet; cats are obligate carnivores. Without meat, they WILL die.


----------



## NancyJ

Lobobear44 said:


> Look at the links below and read them those are the references.


??

I really did not see anything specific to canine health in the links you provided. I do agree that factory farming is barbaric and inhumane but it does not change the basic nature of the dog.


----------



## Lobobear44

Dainerra said:


> what is sad is that there are people who try to raise their CATS on a vegan diet. Dogs can live on a vegetarian diet; cats are obligate carnivores. Without meat, they WILL die.


@Dainerra

My sister said uc Davis veterinarian has proof dogs can go vegan. You are right too about cats. Although the links on uc Davis won't let me through.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Dogs can live off garbage too, doesnt mean I feed mine from the local dumpster.

Any idiot that puts a dog on a vegan diet just to advance an agenda is nothing less then an idiot. Its funny the same person thats talking about putting dogs on vegan diets is talking about Cesar hitting dogs, which shows no understanding of what he actually does. 

You get used to reading stupid things on internet forums but this really is up there. 
Anyways dont let me interrup


----------



## Dainerra

Slightly off-topic but not really.... Did you know that squirrels also eat meat? It isn't a large staple of their diet but during nesting session, they will eat eggs and chicks. They will also raid hen houses for eggs. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## mego

Lobobear44 said:


> @Nigel
> 
> Studies have shown that is because of necessary survival. Humans are not meant to eat meat either. You see a squirrel your impulse would jump run at it grab it by your jaws tear it raw and gobble it up. Put a baby in a crib with a live bunny and an apple what will it choose. Also studies shown meat gives the most health problems for heart disease cancer and other. Vegans are unlikey to get these than meat eaters. *Look at pokemon they are all vegan including the pokemon*.


Pokemon are not real. How can you even compare to pokemon?

Obviously the crib choice would be the apple, not because we are inherently destined to eat fruits over meat, it's because we eat what is easiest to come by. Eating a live bunny would require skinning it and then consuming the meat. We choose the apple for efficiency, but if you cut up a nice little steak and put it next to an apple you would have a different result I believe - both are the same ease.

We are meant to eat both meat and other foods. If we were not meant to eat meat at all,w e would not be omnivores, we would not have teeth designed for ripping and tearing, we would not be able to digest meat. However, since humans are omnivores, we can do BOTH, we can live without one.



Lobobear44 said:


> @Sunflowers
> 
> Again put a toddler in a cage with a live chicken and an apple what will it eat? That tells you if we really are meant to eat meat. Or if we saw a squirrel or a deer impulse would be to run at him grab him with jaws rip him to shreds and eat them raw.


This is a ridiculous argument for why humans "aren't supposed to eat meat". Even if we were completely carnivorous, our instinct would NOT be to chase a squirrel and rip it to shreds. Humans have higher order of thinking, our impulse would be "find a plan to get that squirrel and eat it". If I was starving in the wilderness I can tell you straight up I would pick a rabbit over an apple.


----------



## mego

Request for this thread to be moved out of training theory because it's nothing about Cesar anymore


----------



## Lobobear44

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Dogs can live off garbage too, doesnt mean I feed mine from the local dumpster.
> 
> Any idiot that puts a dog on a vegan diet just to advance an agenda is nothing less then an idiot. Its funny the same person thats talking about putting dogs on vegan diets is talking about Cesar hitting dogs, which shows no understanding of what he actually does.
> 
> You get used to reading stupid things on internet forums but this really is up there.
> Anyways dont let me interrup


ISSUU - Something to eat or someone to respect? by Animal Equality

Choose Veganism | Animal Equality
Plant-strong & healthy living: Rip Esselstyn at TEDxFremont - YouTube

Cloud Atlas Scene - From Womb To Tomb - YouTube

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....456449604376056.98921.367116489976035&type=1

PlantFit: COK Interviews Vegan Crossfitter Ed Bauer | Compassion Over Killing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VRZ08sblVw&feature=player_embedded

Water for pig angel victims in Toronto's heat wave - YouTube

JURIST - Hotline: Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act Threatens Activism

https://www.facebook.com/groups/vegandognutrition/
Sent from my iPhone

@Blitzkrieg 

If you care about animals why eat it? Have you asked many vegan diet dog guardians how vegan diet is going for them?


----------



## selzer

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> We been raised to believe the myth but as children we don't know that the steak on our plate is a carcass or a dead thing once living. If they knew kids would refuse. Sure dogs can eat meat but studies proven they can go vegan and live healthy lives. Riley and Millie been vegan for a month and are healthier than before. Riley used to not eat even with meat but vegan he eats it better than the meat. We want unnecessary suffering for animals. Watch the speeches you'l


I'm sorry but, 

:rofl:

We took the kids to the farm park as soon as they could walk and they have a neat little thing there that shows the kids what kind of meat is on the table, hamburger/beef, chicken, pork, etc, and you slide it open and see the animal that it comes from. 

Our kids take critters to the fair and show them, the best/winners are sold to area butchers. The kids name their beef cattle names like T-bone, Rib Eye, Sirloin. And we have taken the babies to the fair to milk the goats, and to watch cows be milked etc. 

They check out all the animals raised for meat too, pigs, beef cattle, rabbits, chickens, etc. 

My nieces always ask me stuff like, is this made from pigs? with reference to bacon or sausage, etc. Chicken is chicken -- they know that. 

When I was little my dad hunted and fished regularly. We ate rabbit, pheasent, grouse, deer, and a lot of different kinds of fish. He would fishe the animals out of his hunting pocket, and we would watch him skin them and dress them and cook them. Often we watched him kill the fish and then scale them and filet them and bake or fry them. 

No problem with eating them at all. Rabbit and grouse are good, pheasant is awesome. I am not a big fish fan, but fresh walleye baked with a little butter and flour is excellent.


----------



## Lobobear44

selzer said:


> I'm sorry but,
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> We took the kids to the farm park as soon as they could walk and they have a neat little thing there that shows the kids what kind of meat is on the table, hamburger/beef, chicken, pork, etc, and you slide it open and see the animal that it comes from.
> 
> Our kids take critters to the fair and show them, the best/winners are sold to area butchers. The kids name their beef cattle names like T-bone, Rib Eye, Sirloin. And we have taken the babies to the fair to milk the goats, and to watch cows be milked etc.
> 
> They check out all the animals raised for meat too, pigs, beef cattle, rabbits, chickens, etc.
> 
> My nieces always ask me stuff like, is this made from pigs? with reference to bacon or sausage, etc. Chicken is chicken -- they know that.
> 
> When I was little my dad hunted and fished regularly. We ate rabbit, pheasent, grouse, deer, and a lot of different kinds of fish. He would fishe the animals out of his hunting pocket, and we would watch him skin them and dress them and cook them. Often we watched him kill the fish and then scale them and filet them and bake or fry them.
> 
> No problem with eating them at all. Rabbit and grouse are good, pheasant is awesome. I am not a big fish fan, but fresh walleye baked with a little butter and flour is excellent.


@seizer 

Animals are someone not objects. Humans care more about a car not living than a dog pig cow deer wolf. Dairy cows have children being taken away like an object. Vegans is not just about plant based diets mean we care about animals
so much we see them as equal beings. If you carry out meat you all including children will get many health problems like heart diseases cancer obesity and tons more. Us vegans won't have much a problem getting these. If your children saw how they died in farm factories or slaughter houses they won't eat meat again. Your generation and below and today were all grown up in mythical culture. Us vegans are no longer falling to anymore tricks.


----------



## GSDolch

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> Animals are someone not objects. Humans care more about a car not living than a dog pig cow deer wolf. Dairy cows have children being taken away like an object. Vegans is not just about plant based diets mean we care about animals
> so much we see them as equal beings. If you carry out meat you all including children will get many health problems like heart diseases cancer obesity and tons more. Us vegans won't have much a problem getting these. If your children saw how they died in farm factories or slaughter houses they won't eat meat again. Your generation and below and today were all grown up in mythical culture. Us vegans are no longer falling to anymore tricks.



WOW

You like to make assumptions don't ya?

My husband worked in a slaughter house for over five years. My kinds know all about what goes on in there and all about good slaughter houses and bad ones.

So basically what you are saying is that anyone who isn't a vegan doesn't care bout animals? You like to make a lot of assumptions about people, and you like to lump them all together it seems. Well, let me make an assumption of my own...YOU seem to have no respect for nature, or the circle of life (for lack of a better term, lol), by making it out to be something that it is not. You really need to properly educate yourself in lots of ways. Learning how nature really is is one of them.

I'll also point out, that you can't say that anyone who is vegan isn't going to get any of the things you named off. There you go, with your uneducated mind again. Are you a doctor? Nutritional Adviser? Anything that is even close to being in that type of medical field? If not, then you really shouldn't be giving any type of advice on the subject. (and if you are in the field, I still say you shouldn't be giving out any advice about it!).


----------



## selzer

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> Animals are someone not objects. Humans care more about a car not living than a dog pig cow deer wolf. Dairy cows have children being taken away like an object. Vegans is not just about plant based diets mean we care about animals
> so much we see them as equal beings. If you carry out meat you all including children will get many health problems like heart diseases cancer obesity and tons more. Us vegans won't have much a problem getting these. If your children saw how they died in farm factories or slaughter houses they won't eat meat again. *Your generation and below and today were all grown up in mythical culture.* Us vegans are no longer falling to anymore tricks.


Huh? How do you know what my generation was? 

I am really having a hard time figuring out what you are trying to say because of your grammar. If you want to appear educated on a topic, it will really help you to improve your language skills because it is that much harder to win people over to your argument, if your argument is not very clear.

Anyhow, I know that I could be healthier without meat in MY diet, mostly because I really, really like meat. And therefore, I could probably benefit from totally abstaining from it. I did once, during lent, I gave up all meat -- that is how much I love meat. Anyway, I substituted mushrooms for meat. Try a portabello mushroom sandwidch. I lost NO weight during my forty day abstinance. Bummer. That wasn't my point, but it could have been worth something. 

Anyhow, maybe I could live longer without meat, but life without meat for me, would be life not worth living. Who cares if I can live to be 102 if I cannot enjoy

bacon,
sausage,
chicken
beef
pork fried rice
spinach chicken
chicken paprikash
Hungarian Goulash
Pork Roast with Greasy Potatoes
Chicken Soup
Roast stuffed Chicken
Hamburgers
Spaghetti Cassarole
Spaghettin and Meatballs
Fried baked Pork Chops
Fried baked chicken
Roasted stuffed Turkey and all the rest
Roast Beef
Beef Stew
Moo Goo Gai Pan
Butter Chicken
Chicken Almond Din
Roast Beef Sandwidches
Fried Chicken
BBQ chicken 
Wings
Ice Cream
Creamed Chicken and dumplings
Chicken Stew
Pork Chops and Onion Gravy
Pork Chops and Sour Kraut
Kielbassa 
Cabbage Rolls
Stuffed Peppers
Rice Balls
Gunk -- yeah this is a meatball and potato soup

Sorry, but maybe when my taste-buds jump ship, I won't be that enthusiastic about eating meat. But until then, I will enjoy every bite. I will eat meat for both of us. No problem. 

But my dog will NOT be healthier without meat, sorry. They are designed to eat meat. They will eat rice or veggies, but they eat animal protein first, every single time. Babs likes orange slices, and brussel sprouts, and even carrots, but if there is a meat ball on the plate, or some chicken cartilage, or a raw chicken thigh, that will go down the hatch first, followed by the yogurt, egg, cheese, ice cream. 

You will not sell vegan for me, and it will be 100 times more difficult to sell vegan for any of my dogs. 

I am sorry but I really don't have a problem with cows birthing calves and then having them removed from them. Big hairy deal! How dare you own a dog? I mean really, someone removed that dog from its momma -- that is how and why there are pet dogs. People remove puppies from their dam and ya know what? The dams are pretty ok with that.


----------



## Nigel

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> Animals are someone not objects. Humans care more about a car not living than a dog pig cow deer wolf. Dairy cows have children being taken away like an object. Vegans is not just about plant based diets mean we care about animals
> so much we see them as equal beings. If you carry out meat you all including children will get many health problems like heart diseases cancer obesity and tons more. Us vegans won't have much a problem getting these. If your children saw how they died in farm factories or slaughter houses they won't eat meat again. Your generation and below and today were all grown up in mythical culture. Us vegans are no longer falling to anymore tricks.


There are no "tricks" just food chains and you are just as big a part of it as everybody else. Whether you use land for growing crops or raising cattle you are still destroying the native flora and fauna to do so. The animals that once roamed on the land that your dinner grew on don't just move on to the next patch land and all is well, nope they have to compete with other animals for the limited space, so you as a human are still responsible for loss of life.

The food also has to be shipped, how many animals are killed as a result? Water is rerouted for crops and animals die as a result, just look at the Colorado river delta. The fertilizer used to grow veggies also kills animals, see Mississippi river delta dead zone. I could go on, but my point is pretty much all of us have blood on our hands no matter what you eat.


----------



## Carriesue

You guys do realize you're arguing with a kid right?  


Also how do you go about finding out where meat comes from and what places are good and bad?


----------



## Lobobear44

GSDolch said:


> WOW
> 
> You like to make assumptions don't ya?
> 
> My husband worked in a slaughter house for over five years. My kinds know all about what goes on in there and all about good slaughter houses and bad ones.
> 
> So basically what you are saying is that anyone who isn't a vegan doesn't care bout animals? You like to make a lot of assumptions about people, and you like to lump them all together it seems. Well, let me make an assumption of my own...YOU seem to have no respect for nature, or the circle of life (for lack of a better term, lol), by making it out to be something that it is not. You really need to properly educate yourself in lots of ways. Learning how nature really is is one of them.
> 
> I'll also point out, that you can't say that anyone who is vegan isn't going to get any of the things you named off. There you go, with your uneducated mind again. Are you a doctor? Nutritional Adviser? Anything that is even close to being in that type of medical field? If not, then you really shouldn't be giving any type of advice on the subject. (and if you are in the field, I still say you shouldn't be giving out any advice about it!).


@GSDolch 

We vegans research and know what is going on in those factory farms. Going tO end as civil rights for animals is already spreading. Arguments here aren't going to win and not making assumptions just taking out words from speeches and sources. The secrects are out we know. Just cause you are adults doesn't mean you are superior nor inferior to teens or have powers over us. In the end we vegans will win and stop cruelty.


----------



## Nigel

Carriesue said:


> You guys do realize you're arguing with a kid right?
> 
> 
> Also how do you go about finding out where meat comes from and what places are good and bad?


Around here you can go directly to the rancher and see for yourself. If your ok with their practices, then order a whatever you want, cut however you like.


----------



## GSDolch

Carriesue said:


> Also how do you go about finding out where meat comes from and what places are good and bad?



If you don't know of any places in your area, a quick google search may come up with where places are.

Slaughter houses do tours and walk through. If they don't, then I would really question why. Where my husband works, they did tours often. They sale wholesale to companies and grocery stores, so many times, their buyers would want to come in and check things out. Sometimes things were scheduled, sometimes not. I would also check to see if they have any USDA people at the place of operation, and check and see if they do one animal or more. Unless there is a special permit, slaughter houses can only do one type of animal now because of cross contamination. My husband slaughtered pigs, 40 years ago, they did pigs mainly, but also goats. Now though, they could get shut down if they slaughtered a goat.

You can look and see how the animals are kept, what the process is on how they are butchered, and then what happens to the meat after that.

You can also check public records on the place. If anything has ever happened with them being shut down, it should be able to be found, although it may take some digging. My husband hated the yearly inspection, not because of anything bad, but because the USDA people were overly picky on what was and wasn't acceptable. "That door you never use over there in the corner doesn't shut properly? Fix it or its a write up!" lol. Never mind it has nothing to do with anything whatsoever, ha.

Also, any good slaughter house that is on the up and up would, or should, be more than willing to answer any questions someone has.

ETA: I should say worked...he has recently changed jobs to one with better pay and benefits. woot!


----------



## GSDolch

Lobobear44 said:


> @GSDolch
> 
> We vegans research and know what is going on in those factory farms. Going tO end as civil rights for animals is already spreading. Arguments here aren't going to win and not making assumptions just taking out words from speeches and sources. The secrects are out we know. Just cause you are adults doesn't mean you are superior nor inferior to teens or have powers over us. In the end we vegans will win and stop cruelty.



Kid, you have so much to learn.

The great thing about being an adult is that I can speak from personal experience. Something you are lacking greatly.


----------



## GSDolch

Nigel said:


> Around here you can go directly to the rancher and see for yourself. If your ok with their practices, then order a whatever you want, cut however you like.



And there is that too. ^


----------



## Lobobear44

GSDolch said:


> Kid, you have so much to learn.
> 
> The great thing about being an adult is that I can speak from personal experience. Something you are lacking greatly.


@GSDolch 

We vegans don't like it. These murder houses will end. We watch in horror what is going on. Animals aren't tools someone. We vegans learned all. Do kids ever watch under 7?


----------



## Lobobear44

GSDolch said:


> Kid, you have so much to learn.
> 
> The great thing about being an adult is that I can speak from personal experience. Something you are lacking greatly.


@GSDolch

Something fishy here the "making assumptions" part and " so much to learn". Nice try but your manipulating maneuver isn't working. I know you know we vegans know what is going on your secrets. We know the very truth. nothing you do will manipulate me or other vegans back to eating dead things. Even if I had the same amount as experience so do so many vegans our answers would stay the same. 

Personal experience we vegans are terribly personally affected by these horrifying everyday trageties. That is why we vegans are making groups, speeches, spreading the truth what is happening. We know how they get killed poor nonhumans. You are taking innocent lives who are being caused unnecessary suffering. You think I'm the only human around who is doing this but vegans are spreading like a zombie apocalypse. Actually, ones who really have a lot to learn is killing animals like an object for food or others. Without the ability to make connections comparing animals to humans. As equals for senses emotion feelings pain making families (which billions are torn apart) and more. Animals conquered many capabalities we humans haven't such as animals understand us and themselves way more we do them. I would put myself in harms way to rescue an animal a wolf dog cow pig chicken dolphin coyote whales you name it. basically any. we vegans would. Your an animal too studies proven it but we are not meant for meat. Humans have a lot to learn.


----------



## MiaMoo

Lobobear44 said:


> @GSDolch
> 
> We vegans don't like it. These murder houses will end. We watch in horror what is going on. Animals aren't tools someone. We vegans learned all. Do kids ever watch under 7?


*Please please please stop saying "we vegans".* Stop lumping every vegan into the same category, whatever that may be, as you. Not everyone is a radical "we must convert all meat-eaters and destroy every slaughterhouse". I wish veganism in this thread wasn't only being represented by one young kid that is speaking only from knowledge gained by reading PETA magazines.

:headbang:


----------



## redandgold

I'll consider vegan pet food when studies prove that dogs can be healthy on it. In the meantime, Molly will be eating meat.


----------



## Dainerra

Lobobear44 said:


> @GSDolch
> 
> We vegans research and know what is going on in those factory farms. Going tO end as civil rights for animals is already spreading. Arguments here aren't going to win and not making assumptions just taking out words from speeches and sources. The secrects are out we know. Just cause you are adults doesn't mean you are superior nor inferior to teens or have powers over us. In the end we vegans will win and stop cruelty.


You do realize that once your animals have "civil rights" that the people who believe that animals should never be "enslaved" are going to take away your right to have a pet? 

My animals aren't raised with cruelty. They aren't slaughtered with cruelty. They live happy lives with a species appropriate diet and then a quick painless death. End of story

I will side with you on one thing. Humans aren't supposed to eat the AMOUNT of meat they now consume (huge portions, 3 meals a day). However, that is entirely different from saying that they aren't intended to eat meat at all. 
People have long known that you can't get the energy and other needs from animal diets for strenuous survival WITHOUT meat. I've never met a vegan who could keep up with my grandfather who was working from dawn to dusk on the farm at 103 years old. Plowing, hoeing, standing outside in 90+ temperatures tending cattle and working the farm. Everything in moderation....


----------



## NancyJ

Lolobear, well you are a radical youth who is going to change the world.
Been there, done that, have the love beads, the peace medallion, and many folk albums.

Listened to "the times they are a changing" on the radio the other day and almost cried.
Nothing has changed and the movements of those times were much bigger than yours. There are bigger issues today as well. Vegetarian foods may be a small part of the solution, globally ...... 

It is good to take an issue you are passionate about and work on it. A statement like 
_"We vegans don't like it. These murder houses will end. We watch in horror what is going on. Animals aren't tools someone. We vegans learned all."_ is simply going to turn folks off, and write you off as someone on a lunatic fringe.

The best way, IMO, to work on it is to live it AND provide factual evidence. I found ONE link in all the nonsense you posted (to a vegan dog face book page) that would be like...sure I can check this out....maybe folks there will post links. Your dogs are vegan. How long? What breed? How about showing us their blood panels? What level of exercise do they get? What health problems?

Now am I going to feed MY dog this? No. way..not going to make an experiment out of a young healthy working dog. Am I open minded to it, sure, but not without a lot more *SOLID *information. When I quit working dogs, I will probably downsize to a smaller dog with less impact on "the planet" but that is just a personal decision not one to foist on another.


----------



## Shade

Wow this thread is just getting more ridiculous! 

OP - I realize you are young, but if you really want to change the world, start working on your debating. Don't lump people into categories because it only makes you look weak when other vegans are shaking their heads at your statements. Also have conclusive evidence to back up statements, not a mishmash of websites which have no credibility and only your personal opinion. 

Here are a few good websites that are factual and concise regarding the topic:

http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

http://www.dognutrition.com/vegetarian-diet-for-dogs.html

http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats


If you post outlandish statements people *will* question and argue.

I eat meat and my animals eat meat, it's a fact of life and will not change. I have no problem with people's eating choices; if you want to eat McDonalds for the rest of your life go right ahead, I don't care. What I do care about is forcing your choices on children and animals that don't have a say. 

As parents and animal owners we have the responsibility to feed a healthy balanced diet to those we are under our care. If you want to cut out a food group like meat for omnivores, then you replace it with something appropriate. Dogs are carnivores plain and simple, so cutting out meat isn't healthy for them unless for some odd reason they medically can't handle it and that can only be determined by a vet and canine nutrition specialist. It's no different than taking a horse and forcing it to eat nothing but meat and promoting it as healthy for all horses.


----------



## MadLab

About Food----I know some guy with 2 dogs fed on vegan and they are normal mutts. I will try to speak to him soon and ask his exact fed. In this day and age it is totally possible for a human or a dog to be vegan. I am not and neither is my dogs. I love meat and dead things and so do they. lol

Now can we get back to opinions on Cesar Millan in this thread. Anybody wishing to have a elongated conversation about food choice should start a thread on food/vegan.

Surely more people out there hate/love Cesar Millan.


----------



## MadLab

Here's my comment on CM's book. Nice to get back on topic if anyone interested in actually discussing CM's theories etc



> Are Cesar's books any better, and are there any clearer sources than the dog whisperer show for demonstrating how he is with his own dogs on a day to day basis?


'Cesar's way' is definitely a good representation of CM's philosophies and ideas. You basically get a scattering of his methods in the show. Some show may deal with certain issues but the book provides his whole vision of how a dog should be cared for in his opinion. 

After reading his book I find the show more interesting to watch too as i understand why he is doing what he is doing in most cases. I trust his judgement with regard to reading a dogs energy and have seen how his theories and ideas and observations on behavior can change pack mentality in my own experience with dogs.

He makes mistakes as well but the fact he shows these on air tells me he doesn't have much to hide. Anybody would make mistakes if they jumped in as many scenarios as CM. Most positive only trainers wouldn't touch a high percentage of cesar's cases.


----------



## redandgold

I wouldn't use his age as an ad hominem. I've heard far more ridiculous things from other adults. Someone either has a valid point or they don't, whether they're 18 or 80.

That said, yes, I would like some hard evidence. Until I see some, my dog will be eating meat.


----------



## NancyJ

I think it is a good suggestion to start a vegan (or lacto ovo vegetarian) dog thread in the Feeding Your Dog section, and then find some legitimate information to put on it. My own response was to the statement "just because you are adults"...yes there are folks of all ages with silly ideas.

Limiting the thread to HEALTH benefits for our dogs is probably going to be a viable conversation for more folks than talking about animal rights etc.


----------



## gsdsar

What is lacto ovo vegetarian? Milk and eggs I assume, but yes or no eating?

I love meat. I watch the cow I will eat romp and play in its 100 acre field, the pigs get shown in 4 H. I know where my meat comes from, where is is slaughtered. I sleep fine at night. 

I think everyone has a right to the choices. But I hate to feel talked at by those that don't eat meat. 

So I have one, fairly ridiculous question. If you have chosen to be vegan, because of you belief in the cruelty of animal slaughter, or because animals have rights, do you use Flea/Tick and Heartworm prevention??? They kill animals as well??? Do fish count?? Or only cute land mammals? Ovo Lacto, if my assumption is right, ever been to high end milk production? Know where the majority of boy calves and sent? Think its okay for an animal to live in a constant pregnant state? 

My issue is the picking and choosing which animal is worth "saving" by not eating. If you believe that animals have rights and that it is cruel to eat them, that should go for ALL animals not just the ones that are cute. Poor fish. Everyone eats them. Is there life worth less???


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

MadLab said:


> About Food----I know some guy with 2 dogs fed on vegan and they are normal mutts. I will try to speak to him soon and ask his exact fed. In this day and age it is totally possible for a human or a dog to be vegan. I am not and neither is my dogs. I love meat and dead things and so do they. lol
> 
> Now can we get back to opinions on Cesar Millan in this thread. Anybody wishing to have a elongated conversation about food choice should start a thread on food/vegan.
> 
> Surely more people out there hate/love Cesar Millan.


I like Cesar. He is very good at reading a dog's posture, and very good about communicating the posture he wants back to a dog.

Funny thing is how people complain about how he forces a dog to be exposed to what they are scared of to get over that irrational fear... this is exactly how psychiatrists treat humans... exposure therapy lol

People usually miss the point that he isn't training dogs at all.


----------



## selzer

Oh, but there are so many threads on the dog fancy's love-hate relationship with Cesar Milan. It is so much more fun to talk to a vegan that has a dog on a vegan diet.

I have to admit that I did not think of the argument of all the fields used to raise grains and vegetables that vegans eat displacing all the poor wild critters. And the amount of grains and veggies one must eat as a vegan has to be more than if one supplemented their veggie diet with fish, dairy products, and meat. So larger fields will be required for this mass zombie apocalypse to veganism. Which means more and more of our wildlife will be shunted off the land. 

Next to being a Christian, I define myself as one who believes in balance. I strive for balance in everything. When my life is out of balance, I gain weight and get depressed and enter a major spiral. Balance is not about food only, but about exercise, and work, and vocation, and exercising one's mind, and recreation, doing things that go beyond myself, and enjoyment/pleasure. 

When one lives a balanced life, they take what they need and do not over-do anything. They may eat meat or not and use animal products or not. But they are secure enough in themselves, that they understand that they are using only what they need, and they are giving back by the work that they do, and the help that they give. 

It is an unhealthy, maybe even fatal ideology that humans are evil beings, and do not deserve to eat what food their bodies were created to eat. Humans are the ONLY creatures that have done anything positive in the way of saving from extinction many creatures. Do people think that polar bears consider seals and wonder if they eat this one, that the seal population may be permanently damaged.

Creatures have evolved and gone extinct long before humans have graced the scene. But humans have made an effort to save some species that have been endangered, probably by the spread of humans, but no other creature has ever done this. 

So do not be so down on your species. They can be horrible, yes. And there are things we can do to improve our relationship with our world.  But a balanced, sane approach will get you much farther than a radical, I won't touch it if an animal had anything to do with anything to do with it approach simply is not going to go anywhere.


----------



## selzer

hunterisgreat said:


> I like Cesar. He is very good at reading a dog's posture, and very good about communicating the posture he wants back to a dog.
> 
> *Funny thing is how people complain about how he forces a dog to be exposed to what they are scared of to get over that irrational fear... this is exactly how psychiatrists treat humans... exposure therapy lol*
> 
> People usually miss the point that he isn't training dogs at all.


Been through this, have you?

There are many different ways that psychiatrists treat humans. We were discussing this very thing many, many moons ago in a college psych class. And I asked the professor, what if the the thing that a person is afraid may bite or sting them -- I was thinking of the flying, stinging varieties (shudder). He then said that you help them realize through statistics and risks how unlikely it is for them to encounter the object of their fear. Poor city bloke! He asked the class how many of them had been stung by bees or hornets, and almost every one raised their hands. He said we all must be living dangerously, LOL! 

I must admit that my fear of the flying, stinging varieties was not lessened by that technique, and putting me into contact with a hornet's nest, or bee hive would not have improved matters at all either. Ah well, I am glad that human psychology has more in its tool box than exposure and flooding. I really have never heard of a psychologist flooding a human with dogs to decrease their fear of dogs. I would expect that they might encourage such a one to work with small puppies, and then work their way up to dealing with more mature or larger dogs, one at a time, slowly. Sending a person afraid of dogs to a busy off-lead dog park would be a prescription for disaster.


----------



## MadLab

> what if the the thing that a person is afraid may bite or sting them. He then said that you help them realize through statistics and risks how unlikely it is for them to encounter the object of their fear.


The logic which i would use regarding a dog or stinging insect is if you fear it and act irrationally, you attract suspicion and aggression from the animal or insect increasing the chance of a bite or a sting. If you relax and act like the animal or insect is not there then there is less chance of a sting. 

Fear is in the mind and does dictate sometimes over common sense. You will see people fearful of dogs hiding from dogs or acting tense around them. This attract the dogs attention, the exact opposite of what the fearful person wanted.

That's why i like Cesar Millan too. He has no fear of dogs. He sees a dog barking at him and he senses insecurity. Most will consider a bark more of an act of aggression. He always steps toward an aggressive display, showing the dog that technique won't work with him. The dog usually retreats and eventually stands down. 

On the other hand he will always step away from a fearful dog to give it space and allow it realize the cesar is there to help. Then he will turn his back on the animal and let it approach him. Or else slow move backwards toward the dog without every making eye contact and sit beside it again so the dog doesn't fear it or have any reason to be stressed by the approach as it was done with utmost respect and sensitivity.


----------



## MadLab

Here's an interview with Cesar on people fearful of dogs.


----------



## MadLab

More guys afraid of dogs over coming the fear with Cesar


----------



## Lobobear44

MadLab said:


> Here's my comment on CM's book. Nice to get back on topic if anyone interested in actually discussing CM's theories etc
> 
> 
> 'Cesar's way' is definitely a good representation of CM's philosophies and ideas. You basically get a scattering of his methods in the show. Some show may deal with certain issues but the book provides his whole vision of how a dog should be cared for in his opinion.
> 
> After reading his book I find the show more interesting to watch too as i understand why he is doing what he is doing in most cases. I trust his judgement with regard to reading a dogs energy and have seen how his theories and ideas and observations on behavior can change pack mentality in my own experience with dogs.
> 
> He makes mistakes as well but the fact he shows these on air tells me he doesn't have much to hide. Anybody would make mistakes if they jumped in as many scenarios as CM. Most positive only trainers wouldn't touch a high percentage of cesar's cases.


@MadLab

Well Cesar Millian is a great guy I saw him live actually. I was a number 1 fan for a long time, but until I started noticing him hitting dogs I lost respect for him. We vegans do not see dogs as property but as someone. We also strongly believe dogs and all other species are equal to humans. Don't get me wrong Cesar still is amazing training people about dogs. Hence, my dad wasn't convinced pits and rotties are all deadly and bad until we saw CM live. The bottom line is dogs aren't actually the real someone who needs training humans are.


----------



## selzer

Can't watch the videos. But most dogs that bark ARE afraid. You do not need to have a television show to know that. Most dog's WILL back down. So you really do not have to go about with a glock and shoot all the dogs your dog and you will ever encounter. Turning your back lets the dog approach at his own speed, tells him you are not a threat. I did not learn this stuff from Cesar, in fact most of the programs I have seen with Cesar, I have felt he could have managed those situations much better.


----------



## selzer

Lobobear44 said:


> @MadLab
> 
> Well Cesar Millian is a great guy I saw him live actually. I was a number 1 fan for a long time, but until I started noticing him hitting dogs I lost respect for him. We vegans do not see dogs as property but as someone. We also strongly believe dogs and all other species are equal to humans. Don't get me wrong Cesar still is amazing training people about dogs. Hence, my dad wasn't convinced pits and rotties are all deadly and bad until we saw CM live. The bottom line is dogs aren't actually the real someone who needs training humans are.


So how does that work for fleas, and ticks, and lice, worms, and mites? They are animals too. Do you let them live on your dog or yourself or do you get rid of them? And if you do get rid of them, does that mean you are a mass murderer, considering they are equal to humans?


----------



## NancyJ

Interesting viewpoint.
PJ Media The Myth of the ‘Ethical Vegan’


FWIW, not all Vegans consider themselves "ethical vegans" which is a subculture of "vegans" some of whom merely abstain from eating products of animal origin. 

Of course the whole thing is rather unfair to plants
Plants Display Sentience and Social Behavior Greenfudge.org

Maybe a respectful view is all life is sacred, but we must consume life to preserve life. The world would be a rough place without carnivores who serve a very special role in keeping an ecosystem healthy. It is all part of the design. Factory farms are not, I agree. Neither is industrial agriculture.


----------



## MadLab

> But most dogs that bark ARE afraid. You do not need to have a television show to know that. Most dog's WILL back down.


Well some people do need a television program for that and many other training techniques unless they have direct experience with dog packs and trainers. 

To me a high percentage of dog lovers and owners do need to learn how to interact in a way with dogs which shows the person is respectful of the nature of the dog as well as being in control of the situation. 

If people had more knowledge you wouldn't find people searching forums for answers to there doggie issues.

For me, CM provides the necessary information for dog owners without training experience to manage there dogs successfully in the home and out on walks.


----------



## DaniFani

MiaMoo said:


> *Please please please stop saying "we vegans".* Stop lumping every vegan into the same category, whatever that may be, as you. *Not everyone is a radical "we must convert all meat-eaters and destroy every slaughterhouse".* I wish veganism in this thread wasn't only being represented by one young kid that is speaking only from knowledge gained by reading PETA magazines.
> 
> :headbang:


Lol, don't worry MiaMoo...I know *most know that OP's view are those of the extreme and not the norm. If I knew more about veganism I'd be chiming in in your and others defense....


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

MadLab said:


> Now can we get back to opinions on Cesar Millan in this thread. Anybody wishing to have a elongated conversation about food choice should start a thread on food/vegan.
> 
> Surely more people out there hate/love Cesar Millan.


We've had numerous threads about Cesar Milan here on the board over the years. Most of them are repetitive, rehashing the same stuff over and over again. (He's not a trainer, he's a behaviorist! People who criticize him are just jealous! etc., etc., etc.) If you're interested in learning how people feel about him here's a few dozen previous threads you can peruse: 

German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results


----------



## DaniFani

Cassidy's Mom said:


> We've had numerous threads about Cesar Milan here on the board over the years. Most of them are repetitive, rehashing the same stuff over and over again. (He's not a trainer, he's a behaviorist! People who criticize him are just jealous! etc., etc., etc.) If you're interested in learning how people feel about him here's a few dozen previous threads you can peruse:
> 
> German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results


I posted that same link 10 pages ago....yet craziness still ensued lol


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

DaniFani said:


> I posted that same link 10 pages ago....yet craziness still ensued lol


Oh well, we can only try.


----------



## Jack's Dad

If the forums were limited to only new topics or topics that were brought up only infrequently there wouldn't be much to talk about.

How many times can spay/neuter, collar or harness, raw/kibble, working line/showline, vaccines, prong collars, back yard breeders, reputable breeders and on and on be brought up.

I say let people talk about what they want to. 

There are many threads I never or rarely venture into because I just don't care or am not interested.

All threads will die of natural causes eventually.


----------



## NancyJ

Well, you have to admit it is covering some new ground......Have not seen this topic before..........


----------



## Jack's Dad

jocoyn said:


> Well, you have to admit it is covering some new ground......Have not seen this topic before..........


That's true. The whole vegan thing is interesting. My son is a vegan and he became one because he doesn't like harm to come to animals.
He is not a nut case crusader though. It's personal to him and he doesn't bother others about his personal decision.

As far as Ceasar goes, I don't think (like most things dog related) that it's a good/bad or right/wrong thing that he does. He does what he does and some like it and some don't.

He is absolutely unafraid of dogs and it shows when he is around them.
His views on stability in dogs and people are very good IMO.
In the first video Mad Lab provided he talked to the host who was afraid of dogs. My wording, but he was saying that if you have fear you need a dog that is stable. A hyper dog will only react to your anxiety and everything becomes worse.

This is a major problem for people who buy large aggressive breeds (any breeds for that matter). 

Get dogs that fit your comfortability level, not just whatever breed or dog that strikes ones fancy.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Jack's Dad said:


> If the forums were limited to only new topics or topics that were brought up only infrequently there wouldn't be much to talk about.


Sure, but only one of those dozens of threads have been locked, so people can post on any of the others to continue the discussion, which will bump the threads up to "Active Topics", "New Posts", and "Today's Posts", just like this thread. And then they're not "old" threads anymore, they're current threads. 

I'm not saying that people can't or shouldn't talk about Cesar Milan if they want to, or other topic or question that's brought up all the time, I just don't think we need a gazilliion threads about the exact same thing when people are free to add their thoughts to an already existing thread. 

After I've posted my thoughts 10 or 20 times on a particular topic on a variety of different threads, I'm much more likely to just pass by a new thread on that same topic and not bother to reply. Sometimes I won't even read it. Maybe that's just me, or maybe I'm not the only one who gets bored repeating myself over and over again.


----------



## Lobobear44

selzer said:


> Oh, but there are so many threads on the dog fancy's love-hate relationship with Cesar Milan. It is so much more fun to talk to a vegan that has a dog on a vegan diet.
> 
> I have to admit that I did not think of the argument of all the fields used to raise grains and vegetables that vegans eat displacing all the poor wild critters. And the amount of grains and veggies one must eat as a vegan has to be more than if one supplemented their veggie diet with fish, dairy products, and meat. So larger fields will be required for this mass zombie apocalypse to veganism. Which means more and more of our wildlife will be shunted off the land.
> 
> Next to being a Christian, I define myself as one who believes in balance. I strive for balance in everything. When my life is out of balance, I gain weight and get depressed and enter a major spiral. Balance is not about food only, but about exercise, and work, and vocation, and exercising one's mind, and recreation, doing things that go beyond myself, and enjoyment/pleasure.
> 
> When one lives a balanced life, they take what they need and do not over-do anything. They may eat meat or not and use animal products or not. But they are secure enough in themselves, that they understand that they are using only what they need, and they are giving back by the work that they do, and the help that they give.
> 
> It is an unhealthy, maybe even fatal ideology that humans are evil beings, and do not deserve to eat what food their bodies were created to eat. Humans are the ONLY creatures that have done anything positive in the way of saving from extinction many creatures. Do people think that polar bears consider seals and wonder if they eat this one, that the seal population may be permanently damaged.
> 
> Creatures have evolved and gone extinct long before humans have graced the scene. But humans have made an effort to save some species that have been endangered, probably by the spread of humans, but no other creature has ever done this.
> 
> So do not be so down on your species. They can be horrible, yes. And there are things we can do to improve our relationship with our world. But a balanced, sane approach will get you much farther than a radical, I won't touch it if an animal had anything to do with anything to do with it approach simply is not going to go anywhere.


@seizer

Being vegan is more about the diet. Although, one thing my sister won't listen to is humans and nature have been eating meat since the start of humanity. However, studies proved the dangers for health and environment when eating carcasses. Riley and Millie are vegan cause of factory farms. Do you know there is a vegan FB group? Ask all of them how is it going for their dogs. If vegan food is making Riley healthier than all of my future dogs will be vegan. If not they will be eating seafood not any other dead things like cows pig chicks and deer. Of course they are fine on meat (my sister doesn't believe) but can go healthier on vegan.


----------



## Lobobear44

selzer said:


> So how does that work for fleas, and ticks, and lice, worms, and mites? They are animals too. Do you let them live on your dog or yourself or do you get rid of them? And if you do get rid of them, does that mean you are a mass murderer, considering they are equal to humans?


@seizer

No but my sister will yell on high tone and get upset.


----------



## DaniFani

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sure, but only one of those dozens of threads have been locked, so people can post on any of the others to continue the discussion, which will bump the threads up to "Active Topics", "New Posts", and "Today's Posts", just like this thread. And then they're not "old" threads anymore, they're current threads.
> 
> I'm not saying that people can't or shouldn't talk about Cesar Milan if they want to, or other topic or question that's brought up all the time, I just don't think we need a gazilliion threads about the exact same thing when people are free to add their thoughts to an already existing thread.
> 
> *After I've posted my thoughts 10 or 20 times on a particular topic on a variety of different threads, I'm much more likely to just pass by a new thread on that same topic and not bother to reply. Sometimes I won't even read it. Maybe that's just me, or maybe I'm not the only one who gets bored repeating myself over and over again.*


This. I haven't even been here as long as most, and I am already skipping over threads...one example is "are ecollars bad?" I have posted articles, studies, etc on ecollars and get sick of just typing the same thing over and over....but then I worry that the OP might not get all schools of thought on it....so I chime in, but I am already a bit defensive because I feel like I am saying the same thing over and over. Of course, that's my problem, not the OPs. And sometimes I just link to the threads where I posted articles and already stated my thoughts in depth. Meh...tis' the way of forums though ;-)


----------



## MiaMoo

DaniFani said:


> Lol, don't worry MiaMoo...I know *most know that OP's view are those of the extreme and not the norm. If I knew more about veganism I'd be chiming in in your and others defense....


Thank you. I'm not even vegan, I was a vegetarian for 4 years but had to stop due to health reasons. I just have a lot of respect for the people of both categories and it saddens me to know that most non-vegan/vegs learn about the subject only through extremists. They think they represent the whole.

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## Trotter

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sure, but only one of those dozens of threads have been locked, so people can post on any of the others to continue the discussion, which will bump the threads up to "Active Topics", "New Posts", and "Today's Posts", just like this thread. And then they're not "old" threads anymore, they're current threads.


Replying to an old thread makes sense, but inevitably someone posts "you do know that this thread is X years old, don't you" and usually that stops additional posting. I've not understood what a thread's age had to do with anything, but that might be a reason for "new" threads about "old" topics.


----------



## gaia_bear

Lobobear44 said:


> @seizer
> 
> Being vegan is more about the diet. Although, one thing my sister won't listen to is humans and nature have been eating meat since the start of humanity. However, studies proved the dangers for health and environment when eating carcasses. Riley and Millie are vegan cause of factory farms. Do you know there is a vegan FB group? Ask all of them how is it going for their dogs. If vegan food is making Riley healthier than all of my future dogs will be vegan. If not *they will be eating seafood not any other dead things like cows pig chicks and deer.* Of course they are fine on meat (my sister doesn't believe) but can go healthier on vegan.


 
I was trying hard to stay out of this debate but have you done any research into the seafood business? What makes a fish less valuable than a cow?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Trotter said:


> Replying to an old thread makes sense, but inevitably someone posts "you do know that this thread is X years old, don't you" and usually that stops additional posting. I've not understood what a thread's age had to do with anything, but that might be a reason for "new" threads about "old" topics.


That does sometimes happen, but usually on threads that are more specific to a particular poster or situation, like someone is asking for opinions about a breeder or breeders but it's been so long that they probably already have a puppy by now, or a health issue that's been resolved long ago one way or another, or a behavior issue from a few years ago and the OP may not even be active on the board anymore or has solved the problem - that kind of thing. 

Often those older threads get bumped up by a spammer and then people start offering advice or suggestions again, not realizing that it's no longer relevant, because the spam post is removed but the thread is still showing up as current.

Topics that are more general interest can continue as long as people are interested in participating in them, so there's no reason to keep starting new threads.


----------



## Lobobear44

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That does sometimes happen, but usually on threads that are more specific to a particular poster or situation, like someone is asking for opinions about a breeder or breeders but it's been so long that they probably already have a puppy by now, or a health issue that's been resolved long ago one way or another, or a behavior issue from a few years ago and the OP may not even be active on the board anymore or has solved the problem - that kind of thing.
> 
> Often those older threads get bumped up by a spammer and then people start offering advice or suggestions again, not realizing that it's no longer relevant, because the spam post is removed but the thread is still showing up as current.
> 
> Topics that are more general interest can continue as long as people are interested in participating in them, so there's no reason to keep starting new threads.


@Cassidy's Mom

Sorry I haven't been coming lately been busy plus got out of ucsf children's long hospital for Acute lymphangitis It is a bacterial infection carried by the lymph system. Plus other dogs. I regret not going much this summer if i did I would've interacted with the dogs and dog business would've risen.


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## LoveEcho

gaia_bear said:


> I was trying hard to stay out of this debate but have you done any research into the seafood business? What makes a fish less valuable than a cow?


YES. The wholesale fishing industry is crazy wasteful. Dead dolphins, birds, etc. Loads and loads of bycatch. I do think what they're doing turning bycatch that's otherwise commercially useless into animal food is really interesting, although that's another topic. (I'm a fisheries biologist, spent lots and lots of time on commercial vessels.... I could spend days talking about sustainable fishing practices, lol :crazy


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## Lobobear44

MiaMoo said:


> Thank you. I'm not even vegan, I was a vegetarian for 4 years but had to stop due to health reasons. I just have a lot of respect for the people of both categories and it saddens me to know that most non-vegan/vegs learn about the subject only through extremists. They think they represent the whole.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


@MiaMoo 

VEGANISM: A TRUTH WHOSE TIME HAS COME: 100 Vegan-Eating Dogs

Here is a ton of evidence and experiences on v-dogs.


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## Dainerra

a handful of dogs that have been eating "vegan" for a couple years? hardly a scientific study. Not even enough info to be an anecdote. 
If canines could live as vegans, wolves would be vegan. There is more vegetation at less risk for a pack to eat LIKE the deer.


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## Dainerra

We start with the kibble as a base; then we make our own veggie stew for flavor; anything from squash, carrots, leafy greens, brown rice, yams, apples, or celery. I add a touch of chicken-less chicken broth to make it yummy. My dogs love to eat raw veggies too, I taught them to like it since they were pups
------------------

that is a quote from the "vegan dog rescue" 1) if vegan was natural for dogs why would you have to teach pups to eat vegetables. 2) why would you have to add meat flavor to make it more palatable?


----------



## NancyJ

LoveEcho said:


> YES. The wholesale fishing industry is crazy wasteful. Dead dolphins, birds, etc. Loads and loads of bycatch. I do think what they're doing turning bycatch that's otherwise commercially useless into animal food is really interesting, although that's another topic. (I'm a fisheries biologist, spent lots and lots of time on commercial vessels.... I could spend days talking about sustainable fishing practices, lol :crazy


I refer to this site now but I am pretty much avoiding Pacific Fish after Fukushima.

The Seafood Watch Program at the Monterey Bay Aquarium


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## gsdsar

Can a sane vegan please answer about Flea/tick and HW prevention? Not trying to be snarky, but I am truely curious. Would like a solid discussion on what makes an animal " save worthy" 

I know lots of vegetarians that eat fish. Which, if I find out causes me to reem them for a bit. 

Why is one animal save worthy but not others???? Please??? 


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## Jack's Dad

gsdsar said:


> Can a sane vegan please answer about Flea/tick and HW prevention? Not trying to be snarky, but I am truely curious. Would like a solid discussion on what makes an animal " save worthy"
> 
> I know lots of vegetarians that eat fish. Which, if I find out causes me to reem them for a bit.
> 
> Why is one animal save worthy but not others???? Please???
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would like to add to this.

What about Gophers, spiders, mites, snails etc... I mean where is the line if there is one?

To the OP. A bunch of testimonials from dubious sources isn't evidence of anything.

Did you ever hear of Jonestown? Sometimes folks believe something first and then manufacture evidence to support those beliefs.


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## MadLab

Neem oil is a natural substance which will make ticks and fleas avoid your dog. Theoretically you can use that without 'harming' another living being. I would bet that works with mosquitos too. I'm not defending any position but just showing there are always alternatives to insecticides.

A person can figure out a diet based on Vegan philosophies if they wish. In the long run the diet may be lacking in nutrients or vitamins or other chemicals found in meat. 

Does cheap or expensive kibble provide provide all these essential nutrients? I would hope so but that is not guaranteed. It does seem to provide enough of what a dog needs as everyone is using it without much issue.


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## MiaMoo

Lobobear44 said:


> @MiaMoo
> 
> VEGANISM: A TRUTH WHOSE TIME HAS COME: 100 Vegan-Eating Dogs
> 
> Here is a ton of evidence and experiences on v-dogs.


Sorry, but I can make a biased webpage of animal pictures claiming whatever I want. Any unbiased webpage will tell you there are health risks and side effects. I am not doubting that a dog is able to live on a vegan diet, but in no way is that dog going to be as healthy as it should be. Thriving vs. Surviving. The way I see it, if you have to force a dog to change it's diet, unless for the dog's medical reasons (allergies etc.), then you shouldn't. I think it's selfish to force a dog to follow to your own personal diet. 

I also found this and thought it was pretty good: "“People do this to make themselves happy,” says Olson, who worked in psychotherapy before changing careers in the early 1990s. “It’s not about the animal. When people tell me they want to feed a vegan diet, I say, ‘Get a goat, get a rabbit.’”"


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## redandgold

Lobobear44 said:


> @MiaMoo
> 
> VEGANISM: A TRUTH WHOSE TIME HAS COME: 100 Vegan-Eating Dogs
> 
> Here is a ton of evidence and experiences on v-dogs.


Do you have any links to impartial scientific studies, though? 

I found one on cats that found that vegetarian diets provided equal amounts of _some_ nutrients, cobalamin and taurine. It didn't say if they also contained all the other necessary things like methionine though.

(Evaluation of cats fed vegetarian diets a... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI)


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## MiaMoo

redandgold said:


> Do you have any links to impartial scientific studies, though?
> 
> I found one on cats that found that vegetarian diets provided equal amounts of _some_ nutrients, cobalamin and taurine. It didn't say if they also contained all the other necessary things like methionine though.
> 
> (Evaluation of cats fed vegetarian diets a... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI)


There's a good one on WebMD that shows that while yes, they can survive on a vegetarian/vegan diet, they are still missing nutrients that they need. It also lists the health problems that can come from keeping the diet long-term.


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## Lobobear44

Lets go back to Topic no more vegan talk.


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## selzer

Lobobear44 said:


> Lets go back to Topic no more vegan talk.


Why? Not going the way you want it to? 

Actually, the topic was Cesar Milan and dog terms. The dog terms you sited where those that were manufactured by the animal rights movement like calling a dog owner a guardian, etc. Adopting a dog rather than buying a dog, even when money changes hands. Some attitudes and terms are villified by people who want to change how animals in general are considered. 

I think there are some abuses going on with many animal-based industries, as well as pets. But I think animal ownership is a whole lot better than the alternative. And trust me, if you are an animal guardian, and feeding your dog a vegan diet, then you are opening up to be sued by your dog to get an owner who will feed it meat as it was intended to eat. 

People who feed a raw diet may be sued by people who feel dogs should only eat cooked meat. People who feed an economical kibble may be sued by people who think dogs should only eat raw, home-made or grain-free kibble. Not only would this be a very uncomfortable world to own a dog in, our justice system should not be weighed down by ridiculous lawsuits -- that taxes everyone.


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## Dainerra

Selzer and don't forget the spay/neuter arguments!  People who neuter would be sued by those who feel that a dog should keep his manhood. Or by the neighbor down the street who really wants to breed to your boy and you are denying your dogs right to procreate. Or the neuter crowd saying that you are risking cancer because you don't plan to neuter and sue on your dog's behalf to save his life...


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## volcano

Almost nobody gets CM, he deals in feelings, not true psychology and definitely not training. He does love to shut down dogs, as if a lazy dog is better than an attentive alert one. The little techniques he shows do stink out of context, but hes not harsh. And he feeds his dogs meat based kibble.


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## cliffson1

I get CM, most of what he does makes plenty sense to me, he does understand training a dog, IMO. Unfortunately, there are many ways to train a dog, and they all work depending on who applies them, and most people know one or two and think its their way or you are not doing it right. Just like there are many ways to condition yourself, or fight , etc.


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## JanaeUlva

Not only are there many different ways to train but a consideration would be what is a trainer capable of? Each person has varying abilities - in reading a dog, in timing reward or punishment, in their ability to see the details, and to maintain focus thru out the training session, in patience, in understanding training progression, etc.

So what is possible for one person may not be possible for another. 


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## MadLab

> He does love to shut down dogs, as if a lazy dog is better than an attentive alert one.


I haven't seen him shut down a dog on his shows. To me he forces submission with aggressive dogs but with shy or fearful dogs he will not ever put enough pressure on the animal to shut it down. Maybe we have different ideas of what a shut down animal is. 

His main aim is to achieve a calm assertive owner and and a calm submissive dog. Not a lazy dog. Have you noticed so many cases where he will use exercise as a therapy for a majority of his cases. Did you notice his main motto, Exercise, discipline, affection. He does not encourage dogs to be lazy. 



> he deals in feelings, not true psychology


Has anyone uncovered the truth about dog psychology, I think not. Cesar Millan does give his interpretation of dog psychology after 20 years of experience working with dogs in packs. He might not explain in a way all will agree with but he does know how to deal with a pack without them establishing there own order or pack structure.


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## Trotter

MadLab said:


> Did you notice his main motto, Exercise, discipline, affection.


IN THAT ORDER! Animal first - name last. Also, I think CM's got 30+ years working with multiple dogs at a time.


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## PhatHawk

Lobobear44 said:


> I noticed Cesar millan hitting dogs like something to do with water bowl dog food Labrador aggression. He hit her several times in the episode. I noticed yanks on leashes and force. His Alpha thing bothers me i don't believe that no more. He seems to think of dogs as property too. Dog terms like owner pets etc. hate the property terms dogs are not objects living beings. No lesser than humans we have all same feelings all beings pain and strive for love. I hate brags about humans being better than all other species superior. No one is inferior to anyone. Dogs are my companions comrades best friends like other humans. I'm the guardian caretaker of dogs or best friends.


I've trained several dogs. I had a boxer that was a stubborn knuckle head and he needed a strong hand in the beginning. Hard hits from time to time with a sport dog training collar on a very high setting were needed with him at first, just to get his attention. They are the best collars on the market. 16 different stimulation settings that allow you to find the one level that works best for your dog and they give you up to a mile of control. Sasha the Shepherd I have now is so smart and so willing to learn I have only had to use the collar on the very lowest setting and only in the beginning of her training. She wears it every time we go out but I haven't had to use it in months. I never put her in a position to fail or make a mistake that could seriously injure her. Before anyone criticizes, I have worn the collar and used it on myself at the level I use on her and it is not a shock, it's more of a cramping sensation and is much kinder then pinch collars which I no longer use. Not all dogs respond to the same stimulation level. The cheaper collars with limited settings often times are extreme over kill and can actually make an aggressive dog worse. The sport dog collar is excellent and is so much better then hitting your dog. NEVER HIT YOUR DOG. If you stay calm in all situations and use a good stimulation collar your dog will learn from you very quickly.


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## cliffson1

I LOVE my grandchildren to death, but I treat them differently than adults when it comes to structure and discipline!


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## Sunflowers

The most valuable thing I got from Cesar Millan was that the vibes you send to your dog will determine how he reacts to you. It is all about projecting leadership and self-confidence. 
It is especially true when owning a GSD: that dog senses weakness, you are toast.


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## Deno

Cesar has dogs figured out. Some people just don't get it.


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## volcano

I agree with that, what I said about shutting down was just what most pet owners want. Cesar wouldnt promote games of tug, and thats mostly what we do. Were still building drive in my pup even though shes already nuts. We dont want to stop the drive yet. But im not a Cesar Milan trainee cantidate- those people are really dumb in general from what the show shows. 90 percent of the problems on the show could be solved by crating the dog. But the people would get their feelings hurt if their precious dog had to go to jail so they spend 10,000 on Cesar to visit???

One goofy cm show was where a guy was a K9 trainer supposedly and had a fearful gsd. He had Cesar rehab the dog but it all seemed nonsense.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Disagreeing is not the same thing as "not getting it". I "get it" just fine, I simply don't agree.


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## Mrs.K

> *guardian caretaker *


I hate that term with a passion. 

I prefer to be the owner of my pups!


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## ofl52

Being the owner of a working cattle ranch-we slaughter one calf for the freezer each year and send the rest to slaughter. Then the chicken, rabbits and other critters we raise to eat. Then the white tail deer, wild turkey, squirrls and rabbits that we harvest yearly. I am an avid animal lover and have taken in wild animals to rear due to being orphan and/or injured-that are released back into the wild.

The way I look at it-especially for the native animals we harvest-We kill them as humane as one can-A quick death IMO is much more humane than a slow death from starvation due to over population secondary to habitat loss. These animal feed my family and my animals.

Most animals don't perceive death/dieing like humans-luckily most animals brains are not wired so they perceive death like us humans-It is us humans that _"anthropomorphize"_ human emotion/feelings...etc....on animals and IMO-this is not fair to the animal and why IMO animals are tortured and made to suffer by some-not all- well meaning humans. 

I have never understood why it is more humane to keep an animal in a small cage all of its life, or an animal allowed to starve to death or die a slow death caged with little to no quality of life-Yes, its is still alive-but its without any quality of life-how is this humane-To me this is a selfish act-regardless if you eat meat or not.....Causing any animal to suffer a long poor quality life so it will make you feel better..is a selfish act....In my opinion.....


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## Mrs.K

volcano said:


> I agree with that, what I said about shutting down was just what most pet owners want. Cesar wouldnt promote games of tug, and thats mostly what we do. Were still building drive in my pup even though shes already nuts. We dont want to stop the drive yet. But im not a Cesar Milan trainee cantidate- those people are really dumb in general from what the show shows. 90 percent of the problems on the show could be solved by crating the dog. But the people would get their feelings hurt if their precious dog had to go to jail so they spend 10,000 on Cesar to visit???
> 
> One goofy cm show was where a guy was a K9 trainer supposedly and had a fearful gsd. He had Cesar rehab the dog but it all seemed nonsense.


There was a Malinois on the show, out of his mind fearful, supposed to be trained for cellphone detection. Dog should have been rehabed and placed in an active home...rather than used in that kind of setting. 

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## Sunstreaked

I actually love The Dog Whisperer. Pretty much every show there's some little nugget that either I didn't know or if I did it was presented in such a way that made it much more clear. 

For novice and/or under-educated dog owners, there are three main takeaways from nearly every show that I think will help them start to become better owners:

1) Patience. Quite a few episodes show "elapsed time" which can be 20 minutes to an hour (or so) to get the dog to begin to overcome whatever that particular problem is. This helps reinforce that animals need our patience and that a "quick fix" can often be anything but. 

2) Exercise and discipline. Meet the dog's needs for exercise and the rules of that particular household to help make the dog a better pack member . 

3) Affection / Calmness: Project what you want your dog to be. No one does well when we're tense or distracted or anxious and that includes (most of) our pets (not addressing working dogs). 

Most of those things will help the average person be a better owner which means a better life for the dog.


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## trcy

I found out recently Cesar Milan got his GSD from the same breeder I got mine from. I did not know at the time I got my GSD though.


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## Catterman

Ceaser tried his little "sshh shh" crap on a working dog and bout get his hand ripped off.. His methods only work on people's over weight lap dogs.


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## lalachka

Dainerra said:


> what is sad is that there are people who try to raise their CATS on a vegan diet. Dogs can live on a vegetarian diet; cats are obligate carnivores. Without meat, they WILL die.


this is very interesting, can you explain? how are cats diff from dogs in this respect? i thought both need meat to live?


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## trcy

Catterman said:


> Ceaser tried his little "sshh shh" crap on a working dog and bout get his hand ripped off.. His methods only work on people's over weight lap dogs.



I must admit I do not use his training methods. I have nothing against him though.


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## Carriesue

lalachka said:


> this is very interesting, can you explain? how are cats diff from dogs in this respect? i thought both need meat to live?


It just means that dogs have evolved to be able to gain nutrition from other sources such as fruits/veg and I guess wolves might eat some other things besides meat in the wild? I know I'm explaining that horribly, lol. I wouldn't go as far as to call a dog an omnivore but they can survive better(not well mind you) without meat then cats can. Whereas cats are 100% carnivores and need nothing else. I always shake my head at most cat foods thst are loaded with fruits and vegetables, that is for the people not them. That's why my cats get natures variety, one of the few foods with more meat and less other random things(I'd feed raw if they'd eat it).


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## lalachka

Carriesue said:


> It just means that dogs have evolved to be able to gain nutrition from other sources such as fruits/veg and I guess wolves might eat some other things besides meat in the wild? I know I'm explaining that horribly, lol. I wouldn't go as far as to call a dog an omnivore but they can survive better(not well mind you) without meat then cats can. Whereas cats are 100% carnivores and need nothing else. I always shake my head at most cat foods thst are loaded with fruits and vegetables, that is for the people not them. That's why my cats get natures variety, one of the few foods with more meat and less other random things(I'd feed raw if they'd eat it).


Got you but I didn't know wolves can process veggies either 

Yeah, I tried raw with my cats after years of freaking meow mix and they wouldn't eat it. So BB now


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## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> this is very interesting, can you explain? how are cats diff from dogs in this respect? i thought both need meat to live?


As Dainerra said, cats are obligate carnivores - obligate means by necessity. Answers: What Exactly is an "Obligate Carnivore?"



> Because eating a meat-only diet provides some vitamins and fatty acids in their pre-formed state, cats and many other obligate carnivores have lost the ability to make these amino acids and vitamins in their own bodies the way herbivores or omnivores do. They don't need to since the animals they are eating have already done it for them. For example, cats require vitamin A in its pre-formed state, they can’t make it from beta-carotene the way humans or dogs or rabbits can. They have little ability to form niacin from tryptophan.⁴ They have a high requirement for taurine, which is found almost exclusively in animal flesh.⁵ Arginine, also found in animal flesh, is so critical to the cat that a meal without it can lead to death.⁶ Fortunately, all meat sources have plenty. Simply put, cats must eat meat to live.


Dogs are carnivores, but not obligate carnivores. They could also be considered omnivores because they can eat both meat and plants.


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## Carriesue

Thank you Debbie, lol! This is where I was trying to go but my brain said no.


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## lalachka

Carriesue said:


> Thank you Debbie, lol! This is where I was trying to go but my brain said no.


You did fine))) I understood it. I guess I didn't know that wolves and dogs can process veggies (get nutrients out of them)


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## MiaMoo

lalachka said:


> this is very interesting, can you explain? how are cats diff from dogs in this respect? i thought both need meat to live?


Good little section of information off of Pets.webmd.com

"Vegetarian Dog and Cat Food Risks

Dogs and cats process certain nutrients differently than people do. Here are two examples:

Vitamins A and D: Dogs and cats cannot make vitamin D in their skin, so it needs to be in their diet. And the vitamin D needs to be D3, which comes from animal sources, not D2, which comes from plant-based sources. “People and dogs can use D2 to some extent, but cats really need D3,” Heinze says.

Taurine. Dogs can make taurine if provided the right building blocks through dietary protein. Cats cannot make their own taurine at all, so it is regarded as an essential amino acid in this species and must be present in adequate amounts in the diet. Both species can suffer taurine deficiencies."

The whole article is pretty good.
http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats


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## lalachka

MiaMoo said:


> Good little section of information off of Pets.webmd.com
> 
> "Vegetarian Dog and Cat Food Risks
> 
> Dogs and cats process certain nutrients differently than people do. Here are two examples:
> 
> Vitamins A and D: Dogs and cats cannot make vitamin D in their skin, so it needs to be in their diet. And the vitamin D needs to be D3, which comes from animal sources, not D2, which comes from plant-based sources. “People and dogs can use D2 to some extent, but cats really need D3,” Heinze says.
> 
> Taurine. Dogs can make taurine if provided the right building blocks through dietary protein. Cats cannot make their own taurine at all, so it is regarded as an essential amino acid in this species and must be present in adequate amounts in the diet. Both species can suffer taurine deficiencies."
> 
> The whole article is pretty good.
> http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats


Thank you for this. I knew about cats and taurine and dogs and d3. I was giving it to my dog before but stopped when switched to raw, will start. 

I was also giving my cats taurine when trying raw and stopped when going back on catfood. 

So I guess this means that both cats and dogs and should get both d3 and taurine. Will do


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## lalachka

Wait, I don't get it. If cats can't make their own taurine even with the right food then how do they survive in the wild?


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## Cassidy's Mom

It's right here:



MiaMoo said:


> *Cats cannot make their own taurine at all*, so it is regarded as an essential amino acid in this species *and must be present in adequate amounts in the diet.*"


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## lalachka

I still don't get it, sorry, I'm dense sometimes. So it must be present in their diet as opposed to dogs getting it how?


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## kjdreyer

Cats have to eat foods that contain taurine to survive, because they cannot synthesize it themselves. Taurine is in meat, especially heart muscle, which cats would most definitely eat in the wild. Most dogs can synthesize taurine by ingesting it's building blocks; other amino acids.


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## lalachka

kjdreyer said:


> Cats have to eat foods that contain taurine to survive, because they cannot synthesize it themselves. Taurine is in meat, especially heart muscle, which cats would most definitely eat in the wild. Most dogs can synthesize taurine by ingesting it's building blocks; other amino acids.


Ohhh. Thank you. It didn't take long at all))))


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