# Training tools



## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

Here where I live there is a total ban for use of e-collar and pinch collar, but I understand it is legal in the US, maybe in Canada as well? In what way is it used? Only when training or in everyday life as well? Are they in use for an period, or do you need to repeat often? I guess there are 100 ways. I’m just curious, and ask a lot of strange questions.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

This is an interesting question! I have never used a prong collar and don't want to ever. But from the threads I read, I feel very much in the minority. So it will be interesting to read answers as I've wondered myself. As for the e-collar, yes, I used it and don't want to use it again. I did use it for training for 1. My Aussie (Australian Shepherd) who would not stop barking in the car and whose previous owner had used one - it just took one reminder and after a while, I didn't even put it on him. 2. My Sting (German Shepherd) to teach not to run (chase after) deer . He did learn and after a while I only kept the collar on him for a reminder when I took him out there. When I stopped going there and walked him in town, I used a front-ring harness. If you don't get replies to your thread, I wish you would post a new thread again with title: Why do you use a prong or e-collar? in the training section.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

My use for the prong collar is from a novice and pet owners experience. I started using the prong when he was about 1.5 yrs old. I put the prong on him whenever we go out anywhere but haven't needed to use it as a correcting tool for a while now and he gets just as excited seeing me with the prong in my hand as he does when I have the flat collar in hand. He has learned that both collars mean something fun is about to happen.

At the beginning I used it to stop him from lunging at other dogs which helped with teaching him better leash manners.

In my area, I have not seen many dogs being walked with prong collars on but most dogs we see are quite small. The ones I have seen wearing it, half of them had it incorrectly placed on the neck and the owner using it incorrectly. This really bothers me because with so much bad publicity about the prong, all it does is reinforce the misconceptions of this tool.

We take classes for Noseworks and I'm the only one who uses a prong. I'm allowed to bring him into the facility with the prong on but when we are in and he is crated, the leash has to be clipped to his flat collar. He can't wear a prong during NW (Noseworks) trial.

I have watched and read of other countries banning them and am really thankful that this has not yet happened in the US.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I was under the impression that you are not allowed to use a prong collar at Nosework trials. I don't use one at Nosework class per my instructor. We use a flat martingale and her Nosework harness.

AKC also bans prong collars on the premises of any AKC sanctioned event. So I typically use a fur saver or martingale for that as well.

I used to use a prong with much more frequency, when my dog was a puppy. I still use it when i walk her in the winter, but that's because of ice and snow, and if she does have the impulse to take off after a squirrel, the prong ensures I don't fall and blow out a knee or break an ankle or something. When the sidewalks are dry, she doesn't need it. Realistically she doesn't on snow/ice either, but I'd rather be safe than sorry given that my ankles have a strong tendency to roll.

I think they're a fantastic tool as long as they're used judiciously. I would be very unhappy if they were banned in the US.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

When training obedience, I use a prong after the dog knows the command. Break the command, get a correction.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I had never used a prong until I got my big-boy who found out that he could drag me down the road at 6 months old. On previous dogs I had used a chain choke collar, although I never used it to choke my dogs. We use our prong collars on walks even though, like the other posters mentioned, my boy is calm enough to walk without it most of the time. It's mostly just a reminder if something unusual comes up. Mine never wear them in the house or in the yard or their crates. For any trial they are not allowed. Training purposes only.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

WateryTart, you are correct and it is what I said concerning trials. My weekly class allow me to bring him in with it on, but then I have to clip the leash to the flat collar for the duration of class.

Noseworks trials allow prongs on the premises but It has to come off and leash clipped to flat collar before entering the room or area. The reason that they allow the prongs on premises is because they do welcome dog reactive dogs to trial.

I don't know about the AKC rules but if true, it would leave out a lot of potential competitors I would think.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Heartandsoul said:


> WateryTart, you are correct and it is what I said concerning trials. My weekly class allow me to bring him in with it on, but then I have to clip the leash to the flat collar for the duration of class.
> 
> Noseworks trials allow prongs on the premises but It has to come off and leash clipped to flat collar before entering the room or area. The reason that they allow the prongs on premises is because they do welcome dog reactive dogs to trial.
> 
> I don't know about the AKC rules but if true, it would leave out a lot of potential competitors I would think.


That is absolutely true about the AKC rules. And yes, it definitely meant I had a harder time containing my young, exuberant GSD when I was working toward her BN title. You haven't known fun until your very large, adult-sized/puppy-brained GSD decides that the terriers in the small dog grooming area of a big all-breed show MUST want to be her new best friends. I would assume this will also apply to AKC scent work trials.

I missed that about the Nose*work* trial in your post, but my instructor prohibits prongs at Nose*work* class also. Nose*work* is an obedience-free zone.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

The main reason why my boy does not wear a flat collar in the house is because training lessons were expensive and I was working hard learning all this stuff and he was getting good but my family members, five living at home at the time, found it easier to just grab the collar instead of giving commands that we had trained hard for.

So I just took the collar off with the explanation that it was dangerous. They use the commands and everyone is happy


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

WateryTart said:


> That is absolutely true about the AKC rules. And yes, it definitely meant I had a harder time containing my young, exuberant GSD when I was working toward her BN title. You haven't known fun until your very large, adult-sized/puppy-brained GSD decides that the terriers in the small dog grooming area of a big all-breed show MUST want to be her new best friends. I would assume this will also apply to AKC scent work trials.
> 
> I missed that about the Nose*work* trial in your post, but my instructor prohibits prongs at Nose*work* class also. Nose*work* is an obedience-free zone.


Yup my instructor keeps her classes obedience/correction free also. When you said AKC trials, I was thinking in terms of their scentwork trials. I could be wrong but I believe all sports trials prohibit the use of prongs while trialing. When we tried agilities,, I had signed up for private lessons because he was very dog reactive at that time and it was the only way I could do it safely without the prong.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Heartandsoul said:


> Yup my instructor keeps her classes obedience/correction free also. When you said AKC trials, I was thinking in terms of their scentwork trials. I could be wrong but I believe all sports trials prohibit the use of prongs while trailing. When we tried abilities, I had signed up for private lessons because he was very dog reactive at that time and it was the only way I could do it safely without prong.


Yes, all sport trials plus conformation shows. So that would include scent work.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I use a prong and an e-collar. I use the prong when I have the dog on a leash and he's close enough to give a correction. I use the e-collar for times where distance is such that I can't give an effective leash pop. The prong is more natural to the dog and harder to mess up. The e-collar is a very unnatural sensation to the dog and you can cause all kinds of problems if it's misused. 

Right now the only things I use the remote collar for is sit/stay and down/stay from a distance - Basically if he breaks I give him a low level nick as a correction - and to solve fence fighting. He had a bad habit of fence fighting with the neighbors dog and that led to some conflict between him and I with the leash and prong. The remote collar worked wonders for that. The way a lot of people use it is to find a low working level and hold it on constant until the dog does the correct action to turn the stimulus off. I believe this is negative reinforcement but don't remember for sure. I don't do that currently but I will when the need arises. Maybe long distance place commands or retrieves. I'm not that far yet with his training. 

As a word of caution I just want to point out that anyone who is inexperienced with the e-collar should leave it in the box until they can be taught how to use it. A dog has to be conditioned to the collar and mine sees it as an extension of the leash because of that. If you skip it you can mess a good dog up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I use any tool available that will get the point across. Those tools may be my voice, a ball, a riding crop, a prong or an e-collar. The one collar I really don't like and rarely use is a choke collar. It's only useful for suppression and I feel it can cause physical damage to their throats.

I think people do not use the prong collar and e-collar to their fullest potential or use them incorrectly and unfairly. They don't have to be only used for bone crushing corrections. Light stimulation with either can be used to motivate. I use light stim paired with food in tracking. Medium stim pair with a ball reward to get faster downs. I use the riding crop for help or for a correction in heeling. The prong is used for everything. Rarely does he get a correction with that. Usually it's a light pop as a reminder. But all of these "correction" tools have been paired with food so he doesn't view the pressure from them as a soul crushing end.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Excellent point jax, there needs to be some sort of reward as well. Not just corrections.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow's prong collar hangs with her leash. We use it for walks only. I always swore if I needed a prong, I had failed the dog. Then I got Shadow. It has been an invaluable tool and has allowed me to actually walk her again, without fear of injury to either of us.
I get some nasty comments about it, but my dog, my rules.
I am fairly sure that they are not allowed at CKC events.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

I was against a prong collar, eventually my trainer convinced me to try one as my boy's leash reactivity was getting worse. So I caved and agreed to give it a try. Now we can walk past other dogs no problem, I rarely have to use the prong at all, it is always on for a walk, but no corrections are given, he walks perfectly. Plenty of positive reinforcement and "look at me" when we walk past other dogs and he now gets that right without any correction.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Here It IS total ban using prong collar, but ok to use choke collar. Either way, they tend to use them on training ipo.
Neither have i used, but would use If legal cause my hard headed boy tends to drag me outside sometimes. When using right way, they are awesome correction tools.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

I use a remote collar on both my GSD and Malinois. As well as a prong earlier on. If used correctly just like any tool, they're not only humane but completely pain free. However just like flat buckle collars or anything else, they can be abusive. A dog is actually far more likely to hurt itself permanently with a flat buckle collar even if fitted and used "appropriately". And it's absolutely impossible to do so with a perfectly fitted prong scary as they may appear.

Early on we used the prong for walking. Both my dogs were crazy pullers. They were really hurting themselves and no other tool seemed to help. The usual methods of stopping, changing direction and so on, didn't help. So after a long time dealing with it, we decided to look into prong collars. They look scary, it put us off just like it does a lot of people. But doing research we found there's just a lot of blatant lies about what they are, what they do and horror stories about what happens to your dog. Even knowing all that was bull****, went ahead and tested it on myself first. Put it on, high and tight just below my jawline like it belongs on a dog. Had a nearly 200lb coworker do two things to me. Pop it as hard as he could, jerking with everything he had, and literally putting his entire weight steady on it. It doesn't hurt in the slightest. It's pressure, but it can't choke you. It's uncomfortable, but it's not painful. It's impossible to ignore, but it can't break the skin.

Since all you do is a finger flick on a dog, that made me feel comfortable to try it on them. We did, and after doing the introduction so that the dogs realize OUR hands don't move, but they control whether they feel pressure and they understand how to turn it off - within 10 minutes we had two crazy dogs walking in a perfect heel with no other instruction at all. We didn't even have to finger flick within a week of that and they were ready to go off leash within a couple weeks and to this day walk in perfect heel with no issue at all regardless of what's going on around us.

Remote collar I did the same. I wouldn't use anything on my dogs that I wouldn't put on myself. So it went on, and I stimmed myself at every level from 1 through 100. Yes, from about 65 on it is very uncomfortable. It's not "pain" and isn't going to cause any damage but it is not something you can ignore and it is really irritating. Though we use them for ranged off leash work. They don't just shock dogs. Yes, they'll issue a safe static shock if you want, but most also have a vibrate feature and a tone. If you buy a good one, not a cheap $30 Amazon special, they're priceless as a tool. You can set it at level 2-3 (out of 100) and it simulates a leash tug. This is a working level setting and you can use it for anything from teaching place to walking manners when combined with a praise and reward. We use the tone for long distance recall since our Educator EZ900 has a greater range than our voices. The dog hears the beep, and immediately comes running no matter how far away they were. This was done combined with voice recalls and lots of praise and rewards as well. We don't use the vibrate, can't really find a use for it. 

But yes, we also have used the "hand of god" level a time or two. No is just as important to yes, if not more so. Any dog that's never been punished has not been truly trained to stop a bad behavior, they've just been bartered into a good behavior in an unreliable way that can break in the future any time something more valuable than the reward tempts the dog. You give the word no a meaning and violation of the word an intolerable consequence, and it's never ignored period. Remember, that's intolerable. Not painful. not damaging. Not angry. We've only ever done this for four things - counter surfing, which will kill a dog. Digging in the trash, which will kill a dog. Rushing out the door the moment it's opened, which will kill a dog. And jumping on my 87 and 84 year old grandparents whom we care for, which can severely injure them. Those things had to stop immediately and forever. They did it, they heard the word no followed by an intolerable consequence. They'll never do it again, and the word no was given meaning. It's never ignored. We don't have to beg, barter and plead with them. I can count on one hand the times we've had to stimulate each dog at that level. It is not the sole use of the tool. 99% of the time it's used for long range, off leash recall when we're out in the pasture with the livestock or when we're out hiking.

With both tools you won't break the dog. You won't hurt the relationship. You won't scare the dog into losing it's confidence. If used correctly they simply communicate. 

Different strokes for different folks, but any training tool is good if used correctly. Any training tool is bad if used incorrectly. You'll find that a lot of folks that say "I'd never use ______ on my dog" have never tried them, are ignorant as to the purpose or actual use of the tool or have been seriously misled about them. And when you're out and about with either tool and get talked down to about it, you'll find that 100% of the time the person has an out of control dog that's going berserk and pissing everyone off while the owner repeatedly swears "But he's never like this at home! You're wrong, you're cruel but I swear even though your dog is calm and behaved and mine is going nuts I'm better than you because i don't put that **** on my dog"


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

HHH said:


> Here where I live there is a total ban for use of e-collar and pinch collar, but I understand it is legal in the US, maybe in Canada as well? In what way is it used? Only when training or in everyday life as well? Are they in use for an period, or do you need to repeat often? I guess there are 100 ways. I’m just curious, and ask a lot of strange questions.


I use a pinch collar to remind Jack not to pull, because I'm not a strong person and Jack just thinks turning around in circles is a hilarious game. This does not involve yanking on the leash. Instead, all I need to do is keep my arm by my side, and give a little twitch to tighten the links and engage a light pinch. That's all it takes. It just says, "Hey, you're at the end of the leash and pulling, stop." And he'll slow down until the leash is loose again. As he's getting older, he's getting better at remembering and keeping the right pace and the pinch collar is becoming less and less necessary. I would like to eventually move to using his regular leather collar. 

I use an e-collar when we have Jack off leash and are hiking in the woods or otherwise walking/playing somewhere where running off to explore something and ignoring a recall is potentially dangerous. The e-collar serves as an invisible 100m extension of a leash and can provide a range of correction strengths for ignoring a recall depending on the situation. I have also used it to teach Jack never to chase wildlife. The e-collar just makes it such that ignoring a recall is NOT an option. Again, as he's getting older, corrections are becoming fewer and fewer. We will probably continue to use the collar as a safety net, but I think eventually we won't need to correct him 99% of the time.

Other people probably phase things out faster than we are, but we're not professional trainers and are normal people who both work full-time with extraneous family needs and don't have hours to spend each day focusing on training. We're doing our best as we go along, and for our lifestyle and for us, I'm very happy with our overall progress. He's gonna be an awesome dog.

For the record, Jack gets seriously excited when either of these tools appears. The e-collar means we're going somewhere fun where playing, swimming, and hiking are about to happen. The pinch collar means we're going for a walk or into town.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

thegooseman90 said:


> Excellent point jax, there needs to be some sort of reward as well. Not just corrections.


That wasn't my whole point. The point is you can use the prong and e-collar as communication with your dog without using it as a correction if pair properly and lower stim/pop.

There are steps in using a correction. The dog must have a full and total understanding of an exercise. If he is in a new environment, then the handler should be back to teaching and helping, not correcting. 

As for the reward, it MUST follow the correction. You can't just correct and correct. The exercise needs to be stopped, a correction, immediately followed by a reward for the right behavior. Simple, proven, dog psychology.

As I said, these tools are under utilized when used only for correction. And often unfairly utilized with high corrections, unclear corrections or poorly timed corrections because people don't understand how to use


ETA: I think the best training tool is the relationship with your dog. There are hard dogs out there that will need a harder correction but for the most part, a good relationship with your dog means your dog will want to work with you and want to be correct to please you. Most dogs want to please their people.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

HHH said:


> Here where I live there is a total ban for use of e-collar and pinch collar, but I understand it is legal in the US, maybe in Canada as well? In what way is it used?


See my response above.




HHH said:


> Only when training or in everyday life as well?


It depends. Typically, I only use the e-collar in training or hiking in the woods/fields. The prong I use all the time if we are out walking on leash. He rarely pulls anymore so it's more habit for me.



HHH said:


> Are they in use for an period, or do you need to repeat often?


If we are training, the collars are on him. They get smart to a collar so having it on them when it's not being used helps that.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

Kyrielle said:


> I use a pinch collar to remind Jack not to pull, because I'm not a strong person and Jack just thinks turning around in circles is a hilarious game. This does not involve yanking on the leash. Instead, all I need to do is keep my arm by my side, and give a little twitch to tighten the links and engage a light pinch. That's all it takes. It just says, "Hey, you're at the end of the leash and pulling, stop." And he'll slow down until the leash is loose again. As he's getting older, he's getting better at remembering and keeping the right pace and the pinch collar is becoming less and less necessary. I would like to eventually move to using his regular leather collar.
> 
> I use an e-collar when we have Jack off leash and are hiking in the woods or otherwise walking/playing somewhere where running off to explore something and ignoring a recall is potentially dangerous. The e-collar serves as an invisible 100m extension of a leash and can provide a range of correction strengths for ignoring a recall depending on the situation. I have also used it to teach Jack never to chase wildlife. The e-collar just makes it such that ignoring a recall is NOT an option. Again, as he's getting older, corrections are becoming fewer and fewer. We will probably continue to use the collar as a safety net, but I think eventually we won't need to correct him 99% of the time.
> 
> ...


Same here. Our dogs are over the moon when these collars come out. They dance around and rub all over our legs trying to get us to put them on faster. We never have to issue corrections anymore but it still signifies something fun. Again, the only way a dog can see these tools as bad is if someone is ignorant and misuses them, is abusive and misuses them or introduces them incorrectly. If used right it means something awesome is going to happen. It makes it impossible for the dog to ignore you and nothing is a negotiation anymore, but it also means exciting things are coming.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

Thank you for your answer. It is interesting to learn little about this as well. I understand it is how you use the tools that makes whether it is ethical or not. Choke collar isn’t forbidden here, and as you say, way more harmfull for the dogs.

Norway is a strange country, on one side they speak the animals rights, but on the other hand the animals don’t have rights at all. We have a very strict law about dogs, and in worst case scenario a dog can be claimed euthanized if someone just feel threatened without a incident, or even if a burglar comes in to your house and get bitten. Many problems could have been avoided if people were able to teach the dogs their good behavior. Several large dogs is out of control because people cant handle them. It is forbidden to utilise dogs, if there isn't medical reason for it, so almost every dog is intact. =lots of trouble!!


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

HHH said:


> Thank you for your answer. It is interesting to learn little about this as well. I understand it is how you use the tools that makes whether it is ethical or not. Choke collar isn’t forbidden here, and as you say, way more harmfull for the dogs.
> 
> Norway is a strange country, on one side they speak the animals rights, but on the other hand the animals don’t have rights at all. We have a very strict law about dogs, and in worst case scenario a dog can be claimed euthanized if someone just feel threatened without a incident, or even if a burglar comes in to your house and get bitten. Many problems could have been avoided if people were able to teach the dogs their good behavior. Several large dogs is out of control because people cant handle them. It is forbidden to utilise dogs, if there isn't medical reason for it, so almost every dog is intact. =lots of trouble!!


Well, intact dogs don't cause that much trouble if owners keep track of said dogs. But it sounds like they don't, so...

I suppose Norway doesn't have "stand your ground" laws, either. In the US, some states do not file any charges if your dog bites someone that's provoking it (as in hitting it, hurting it, or doing anything where the natural and reasonable response for any animal would be to defend itself), especially a burglar or home invader of any sort. However, there are cases where burglars have sued dog owners (and won) because of the "beware of dog" sign... Total nonsense, but I suppose those cases occurred in states without "stand your ground" laws.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

Kyrielle said:


> Well, intact dogs don't cause that much trouble if owners keep track of said dogs. But it sounds like they don't, so...
> 
> ...


No, un-neutered dogs do not make trouble, but disobedient dogs do, and when «Big-Fido» suddenly thinks he's a tough man, people do not have control anymore.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

HHH said:


> Thank you for your answer. It is interesting to learn little about this as well. I understand it is how you use the tools that makes whether it is ethical or not. Choke collar isn’t forbidden here, and as you say, way more harmfull for the dogs.
> 
> Norway is a strange country, *on one side they speak the animals rights, but on the other hand the animals don’t have rights at all.* We have a very strict law about dogs, and in worst case scenario a dog can be claimed euthanized if someone just feel threatened without a incident, or even if a burglar comes in to your house and get bitten. *Many problems could have been avoided if people were able to teach the dogs their good behavior.* Several large dogs is out of control because people cant handle them. It is forbidden to utilise dogs, if there isn't medical reason for it, so almost every dog is intact. =lots of trouble!!


We've noted that will be a problem on many occasions. People may think you can train with cookies and rainbows but there has to be a moment where you are able to get the point across that a certain behavior is not acceptable. I'm not saying dogs "need" punishment. But there has to be a clear, fair, consequence to an action. 

People can claim what they want but it's known to MANY upper level competitors that in the countries where these tools are illegal, behind closed doors and high fences, these tools are being used.

And in other places, in place of these tools, trainers are using their hands to punish. I've seen video of a dog being swung thru the air and thrown. How can any of that possibly be more humane than the collars you asked about?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I thought every dog in Europe had impeccable manners and went everywhere like cafes and subways? Anyone remember that thread? 

(note- sarcasm)

Seriously, though, I've heard Norway is a great place to cross country ski with dogs and that there are wonderful trails around Oslo and throughout the country because of their common-use laws, where public is allowed on private property. 

I love our public lands here in the US, National Forests, BLM are almost always very dog friendly and I utilize these lands every day with my dogs, off leash and wearing e-collars. I use e-collars because I see wildlife all the time, and I need full control of my dogs. While I rarely correct my dogs once they're trained, I love the beep feature on the collars, the remote controlled lights on each collar. Plus, my e-collars provide real-time, off grid, GPS tracking for each dog, and a GPS handheld for me which serves double duty.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I was curious and did a bit of research on Norway dog culture and laws. 

Here's an interesting article on Norway dog culture/laws: Traveling With A Reactive Dog? 6 Reasons To Visit Norway | Kenzo the Hovawart

There are very few places in Norway where dogs are allowed off leash. And these laws are apparently fairly strictly followed. There is a strict leash law during the summer season when wildlife and livestock have young. There is a law that dogs must be leashed on any groomed (packed) ski trails. There are few places like we have (National Forests for example) where dogs are allowed to run loose with no leash laws. 

It is illegal to neuter or spay dogs without a medical reason to do so- some vets claim this results in far higher rates of dog fights and aggression. This doesn't necessarily surprise me, since I have seen how a bitch in heat can affect a male dog's aggression level, and in a city like Oslo, there is probably always a bitch in heat nearby. On the good side, Norway has no stray dog problem. 

Norway is not as dog friendly as places like Denmark or Germany. Dogs in general are not allowed in cafes or indoor public places. 

And, yes e-collars and prongs are banned.

Seems like perhaps, dogs and humans would be happier if they had access to these off-leash training tools, so dogs could run around wildlife and livestock but still be under voice control. The country enacted leash laws which are arguable less humane to the dogs than proper e-collar training. 

I stand by my choice to use off leash training tools properly so that my dogs and I can enjoy our off leash hikes on our incredible public lands. I'm off on one now.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

There is a lot of frustrated dogs in Norway, without possibility to run free. Dog schools has a «non-correction» philosofi, because they can’t admit correction openly because people goes crazy and shouts abuse. People use the reward as a lure in their training, and when something else is more interesting for the dog there is no consequence. I think it’s more abusive to let the dogs become so frustrated, and in conflict with their owners. The dogs is always is the losing part, in one way or another.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So how do you train protection if you can't teach and test how the dog works thru pressure? What happens when you introduce a stick hit? How do you stop a dog that is out of control? How many really good dogs get washed out because the handler just simply can't teach them what they can do and what they can't? How many people use the tools behind closed doors and high fences? Or go out of the country to be able to use them in training?


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

People who train for competitions corrects their dogs, ofcourse. It is the regular dog owner who doesn’t have the dog for anything but a family pet, are those who often are having trouble. 
I'm sure tools are used here too, but it's not easy to do it in the hidden. Several times when we have our training, police have come because people has reported illegal dog fight or something suspicious.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

HHH said:


> People who train for competitions corrects their dogs, ofcourse. It is the regular dog owner who doesn’t have the dog for anything but a family pet, are those who often are having trouble.
> I'm sure tools are used here too, but it's not easy to do it in the hidden. Several times when we have our training, police have come because people has reported illegal dog fight or something suspicious.


It's all so crazy. And the dogs pay the price.

So how do you correct your dogs in training? That was the question. They have to or they wouldn't make it past the BH.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

How can I explain that with my bad english. 
Mostly it is correction in the chain, and I often use a second handler in the harness for safety. If he fail, correction and do it again. Most important for me, train a lot of obedience before protection. And then it’s repeat, repeat and repeat.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Is that correction with the choke chain collar a pop? Is it picking the dog up and hanging him?

So the control you put on him in obedience is even more vital? Do you use things such as a platform in protection as a form of control to maintain distance from the helper when needed? Other tools?

I'm really curious the process and the tools you do use in training to get around the effective correction tools.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

It is not as bad as it sounds, but it is a lot of people who think all training is abuse, and with large dogs you have a big responsibility.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That did not answer my questions. What is the process of correction and any other tools you use to teach control. How do you introduce pressure and teach the dog to work thru it. Do hard dogs that do need a correction get washed out because they can't be controlled? Or do they get harsher corrections that are more physical and mentally/emotionally worse for them?

I bet it's not all that different than what we do here. I rarely use a correction in protection. His foundation used a platform to teach him boundaries and control. It's about control using various tools such as a platform and teaching the dog, you screw up you no get bite.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

Some helpers use table or a pole, specially in the beginning, and the second handler later, when we start to move more at the field. 
Second handler correct the dog when we begin with bark and hold in the blind, så they can’t touch. Some dogs need more concise correction than other, and several people use this thin line as a collar, I don’t know what it’s called


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's not terribly different than here for foundation. The light pops on the dog in the bark and hold to set rhythm and maintain distance.

Probably a choke collar of some sort? I've seen metal, nylon and a plastic cable type choke. I would be interested in knowing how many dogs in Norway have damage to their tracheas from being choked with these things.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

I’m sure this is a little awkward english, but I hope you understand, and have patience with me for writing so slowly.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

Yep, thin choke collar, think they are made of nylon. 
Lot of dogs never come to start, training for years, but gain not enough control to go to a trial. There are many reasons for not be ready for trials, not just because we can not use tools, and many might have gotten a much easier way if it was legal.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> That wasn't my whole point. The point is you can use the prong and e-collar as communication with your dog without using it as a correction if pair properly and lower stim/pop.
> 
> There are steps in using a correction. The dog must have a full and total understanding of an exercise. If he is in a new environment, then the handler should be back to teaching and helping, not correcting.
> 
> ...


Well that may not have been the whole point but that was the point I saw as being an excellent point. Most of the other stuff has been covered throughout the thread with different words but now we have some stuff to disagree about. 

1) a low level stim or pop is still a stim or pop. Just because you want to call it communication doesn't make it so. It's still a correction.

2) the dog does not need a full and total understanding of the command for these tools to be used. This just sounds friendlier for the positive only folks. In fact the only time I think they have a full and total understanding is when they perform the command every time, everywhere in which case you no longer need to correct. A dog that won't just doesn't understand that, for example, sit means sit every time and every place. Many behaviors are shaped and proofed by some people through aversive means from day 1. 

3) a reward should never follow a correction. It should only ever follow the correct behavior.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@*thegooseman90*

Isn't that what I said...



> As for the reward, it MUST follow the correction. You can't just correct and correct. The exercise needs to be stopped, a correction,* immediately followed by a reward for the right behavior.* Simple, proven, dog psychology.


Ummmm....yup...that's what I said.

As far as your arguments, well...

You do you. I'll do what some of the best trainers in the country have taught me that is making my dog successful and have made them successful champions. I don't really need to argue on the internet.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> @*thegooseman90*
> 
> Isn't that what I said...
> 
> ...


As for the reward it MUST follow the correction. Lot of emphasis on the must. If there was no need to argue on the internet you wouldn't have bothered to call me on the one part and ignored the other two. As for your champion dogs that's great and I really mean that. Takes a lot of hard work and the right genetics to get there. But I'm sure at some point in some venue someone has made their dogs a champion using a frying pan and a boot hero as their training tools. You can't really think that no champions existed before the 90's right?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL I didn't say I had champion dogs. My bad on the missing commas.

You do you.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> LOL I didn't say I had champion dogs. My bad on the missing commas.
> 
> You do you.


 Lol well the way it was written it seemed like you had made them successful and made them champions. I was really impressed. Either way we can agree to disagree and move on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yeah. My bad. Multi-tasking. It was poorly worded. 

I'll do what some of the best trainers in the country, who are successful champions, have taught me that is making my dog successful.

I think that's better. If not, well, rough week and it's peanuts to the universe.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Oh well, feeling The same. I am not from Norway, but on Finland. Crossed border with dog btw. 
Almost same laws and its a shame. 
Exbl my boy was like 27 weeks and i put HIM infront of the shop. Without lying i was back on 2 min, no lines and i only needed milk. Well, there were angry couple waiting near My dog "how could u, terrible to leave HIM alone, he missed u" 
Blaablaa... After that, i never leave HIM there. Terrible people.

I think Europe IS dog haters Area. In so many ways.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Jax and Gooseman...the wonders of communicating in text. It is so easy to miss understand and I'm glad you two sorted it out. 

What I don't understand is how we get to this point where we are expected to deal with our dogs with "kid gloves" as if they were made of fine porcelain and would break. I'm not for exerting more pain on a dog than necessary but life / nature is not gentle! Lessons are sometimes learned the hard way, for humans as well as dogs. I don't like to make my dogs uncomfortable. I wish I could teach them everything with just praise. But the other day my gal-dog had a very bad idea and she learned from my voice that I was NOT pleased with her choice. That may have been more "painful" to her than a leash pop.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@car2ner

Because..... furbabies ......!!!! PetSmart and Peta. Do you remember the uproar of Deb's picture with either the remote in her hand or the collar on Eros after she won the WUSV? The SV president was trying to make rules that any person using these be penalized, even if it was legal in your own country. Many countries stood up and said "NO. Not happening"


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

fur babies...is that because we have so confused ourselves on how to raise children it just seems easier to have pets instead? 

OK, back to the topic at hand. Training tools. One day people will realize that head halters and front clip harnesses also work because it is uncomfortable to move out of position. Then dogs will be trapped indoors or small back yards.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would like your post but it makes me sad to think about it


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

car2ner said:


> Jax and Gooseman...the wonders of communicating in text. It is so easy to miss understand and I'm glad you two sorted it out.


 we may have disagreed on the finer points or some of the lingo but I'd bet we actually use similar methods to train our dogs. My pup is coming along pretty well and jax is successful with his/her dogs and at the end of the day you can't ask for much more than happy successful dogs regardless of how you get there  

Now to the other part. I could care less how anyone handles their dog. If they want to let it run rampant in the name of being positive only so be it. If they want to take many months to achieve something we could get down in days or weeks fine. But then they go out and lobby for how everyone else should handle their dog and will end up making everyone else's training and dog handling lives harder. I'm sure at some point prongs and and e-collars will be banned here too thanks to them. And then joe blow resorts back to the hand or switch training his dog at home in private anyway.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

HHH said:


> There is a lot of frustrated dogs in Norway, without possibility to run free. Dog schools has a «non-correction» philosofi, because they can’t admit correction openly because people goes crazy and shouts abuse. People use the reward as a lure in their training, and when something else is more interesting for the dog there is no consequence. I think it’s more abusive to let the dogs become so frustrated, and in conflict with their owners.* The dogs is always is the losing part, in one way or another*.



This would be my dog. If e-collars were banned (and it's getting close) I would only let him off leash in enclosed fenced areas or a suburban park dragging a long-line & actively play or training with me--absolutely no hiking trails/bush running without it. 

Without the prong, there are times & places I would not walk him--it would be short potty walks only, or I'd make him wear a halti, which is far worse than a prong.

Agreeing with the bold. I would love to train with nothing but treats & toys & love, but when those restrictions mean I start leaving him behind at home, I am glad I still have options. He loves to run free & go for long walks.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

In many way dogs has a good life in Norway, but the problems start with the types of dog who has size, energi and drive more than a pet. A whole bunch of them aren’t handeled properly because the owners can’t get the control the way they should, and they become frustrated and problematic. 
Many breeds are nice family dogs without too much effort, either because they are small or they don’t have much energy and drive. Unfortunately, a lot of people buy dogs by their appearance and are tempted to buy a energetic workingdog, without giving them any work to do.

I'm sure if the dog had a choice, they would have risked a correction of either a prong or an e-collar, than a life in leash and frustration. It is easy for them to understand, black and white training.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That really isn't so different from here. Yes, the tools are still legal here. However, people are shamed and guilted into positive only training. There are places I don't take my dogs for their own safety because of this.

Example: Went into PetSmart to get something minor and it was hot so took Seger in with me. First, I can hear dogs erupting inside the door while standing next to my car in the parking lot. So I wait. Out comes a couple, 3 dogs on flexi leads (1 large male German Shepherd, a small dog and another large dog). The man with the GSD obliviously meanders in a straight line at my car while I'm standing with the door open next to Seger's crate. I asked "hey, can you please move back because he is not going to like you so close." I got a very nasty response from the woman. So I stepped back and let Seger light up. Problem solved. 

Then, inside the store, I can hear another large dog going nuts. I get my stuff, walking down the aisle to check out and this very large Lab dragging his owner, snarling, barking and all teeth, are coming up behind me. The owner is LAUGHING. The stupid PetSmart trainer who is being paid money for this fiasco is doing NOTHING. Click and treat, my friend. Just keep clicking and treating.

No control. All positive. No correction for bad behavior. No owner responsibility or courtesy towards others.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

HHH said:


> I'm sure if the dog had a choice, they would have risked a correction of either a prong or an e-collar, than a life in leash and frustration. It is easy for them to understand, black and white training.


This is so true. So many people think negotiating with a dog works. Then they wonder why it runs after the squirrel instead of coming back.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> Now to the other part. I could care less how anyone handles their dog. If they want to let it run rampant in the name of being positive only so be it. If they want to take many months to achieve something we could get down in days or weeks fine. But then they go out and lobby for how everyone else should handle their dog and will end up making everyone else's training and dog handling lives harder.


Are you sure it is all positive owners lobbying against prongs and e collars or could it be people who are sick and tired of seeing or hearing about 12 week old puppies on prongs or people who want to know at what age to start using a prong because they want to use a prong vs needs one or worse, they think because they own a GSD they MUST use a prong or watching dogs constantly wearing prongs 24/7 or tied out on prongs 24/7 or people who have six month old puppies and claim their puppy has been taught to not jump on people but still does or knows come but won't come when called so they max out the e collar and start cranking away? All but the last scenario were posts made by people on this forum and the last was on another forum. Just saying that not everybody uses a prong or an e collar as a tool as they were meant to be used.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> That really isn't so different from here. Yes, the tools are still legal here. However, people are shamed and guilted into positive only training. There are places I don't take my dogs for their own safety because of this.
> 
> Example: Went into PetSmart to get something minor and it was hot so took Seger in with me. First, I can hear dogs erupting inside the door while standing next to my car in the parking lot. So I wait. Out comes a couple, 3 dogs on flexi leads (1 large male German Shepherd, a small dog and another large dog). The man with the GSD obliviously meanders in a straight line at my car while I'm standing with the door open next to Seger's crate. I asked "hey, can you please move back because he is not going to like you so close." I got a very nasty response from the woman. So I stepped back and let Seger light up. Problem solved.
> 
> ...


This was me just last week. I went into Petsmart so I could get an LED light for putting on Ryka's collar for night time walks. She's so dark, and most of my winter clothing is black, so I wanted to make sure we could both be visible. As I was just sitting in the toy aisle looking around and she was sitting next to me, a "trainer" comes with her mini schnauzer that is extraordinarily reactive towards Ryka. Won't stop pulling, barking, and lunging towards her. What does she do? Picks the dog up, tells him, "Oh silly, what are you doing?" and then moves to the next aisle. Dog continues to bark and refuses to listen, and she finally uses a stern voice but obviously no meaningful correction. That dog continued to bark and lunge after Ryka the entire time we were there. Thankfully Ryka just ignored it. 

I can imagine how quickly that behaviour would have stopped with the use of properly implemented corrections and praise. I for one am thankful to have the opportunity to use training tools available to me, and I think taking them away can severely limit or damage the relationship individuals can have with their dogs. Most of the push to get rid of training tools come from arm chair owners who forget that breeds exist for a purpose, and who believe "it's all in how your raise them". I don't think positive only training is a horrible evil in comparison to some things, but I prefer a balanced approach to everything in life. You give a little, you take a little. It's natural. 

I have converted quite a few friends and family to understand why a balanced approach is important. Once they meet Ryka, it's an immediate, "wow, now I totally get it" kind of thing. Awareness is important, but proper education is just as crucial. I don't think things should be banned, but regulated. Only certain materials or qualities produced, a certain standard met (minimum number of levels on an e-collar, for example), that kind of thing. But that's as likely to happen as mandated standards for breeding animals unfortunately.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the cashier thought I was nuts that day when I shoved an 80# dog into her little space. The store places all out dogs in danger when they not only allow that behavior, but condone it thru their own training policies.


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> That really isn't so different from here. Yes, the tools are still legal here. However, people are shamed and guilted into positive only training. There are places I don't take my dogs for their own safety because of this.
> 
> Example: Went into PetSmart to get something minor and it was hot so took Seger in with me. First, I can hear dogs erupting inside the door while standing next to my car in the parking lot. So I wait. Out comes a couple, 3 dogs on flexi leads (1 large male German Shepherd, a small dog and another large dog). The man with the GSD obliviously meanders in a straight line at my car while I'm standing with the door open next to Seger's crate. I asked "hey, can you please move back because he is not going to like you so close." I got a very nasty response from the woman. So I stepped back and let Seger light up. Problem solved.
> 
> ...


Like this? :wink2: «Just relax, I have a clicker, we just wait until he out, then I click and give him a treat.»


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:rofl: EXACTLY!!!!!!


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are you sure it is all positive owners lobbying against prongs and e collars or could it be people who are sick and tired of seeing or hearing about 12 week old puppies on prongs or people who want to know at what age to start using a prong because they want to use a prong vs needs one or worse, they think because they own a GSD they MUST use a prong or watching dogs constantly wearing prongs 24/7 or tied out on prongs 24/7 or people who have six month old puppies and claim their puppy has been taught to not jump on people but still does or knows come but won't come when called so they max out the e collar and start cranking away? All but the last scenario were posts made by people on this forum and the last was on another forum. Just saying that not everybody uses a prong or an e collar as a tool as they were meant to be used.


Well it's really never just one thing. Of course it's going to be people from that group against those training tools as well. I personally am against them being used that way too. For every post of someone abusing the dogs I've seen at least one post by a positive only person saying "i have never and would never use one. It should never be used etc" But banning training tools only hurts the decent people. Abusers will abuse regardless of the law.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My sister used to be a Never Use A Prong collar person. She had BCs and did agility. So we let her walk our big-boy on just his martingale collar. He wasn't very bad but he did test his strength against hers. Her reply was "Gee, It's like trying to walk a horse!" We put his prong back on and it simply reminded him to mind his manners.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> Well it's really never just one thing. Of course it's going to be people from that group against those training tools as well. I personally am against them being used that way too. For every post of someone abusing the dogs I've seen at least one post by a positive only person saying "i have never and would never use one. It should never be used etc" But banning training tools only hurts the decent people. Abusers will abuse regardless of the law.


My point was just to keep an eye on the abusers because even those who don't have a problem with the tools, could easily be swayed to support a ban when faced with the issues I mentioned. :wink2:


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My point was just to keep an eye on the abusers because even those who don't have a problem with the tools, could easily be swayed to support a ban when faced with the issues I mentioned. :wink2:


You're missing the point. Same with gun control laws. It only hurts the good people. Those who are going to go out and rob a 7-11 don't care what the law is and they'll have a gun. But your law abiding neighbor wont. Same with abusing the dogs. If they can't abuse them with the prong or e-collars they will find another way. So don't hurt your neighbors by supporting a ban that won't fix anything anyway.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> You're missing the point. Same with gun control laws. It only hurts the good people. Those who are going to go out and rob a 7-11 don't care what the law is and they'll have a gun. But your law abiding neighbor wont. Same with abusing the dogs. If they can't abuse them with the prong or e-collars they will find another way. So don't hurt your neighbors by supporting a ban that won't fix anything anyway.


I support what is best for the animals. :smile2:


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I support what is best for the animals. :smile2:


We better get a ban on boot heels, closed fists, big sticks, chains of every type, frying pans, and anything else that could be used to abuse a dog :|


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> We better get a ban on boot heels, closed fists, big sticks, chains of every type, frying pans, and anything else that could be used to abuse a dog :|


There is a member on this forum that trains dogs for LE without the use of a prong. Another member here has been doing professional board and trains for over ten years and never uses a prong. Nor do they use any of the "tools" you suggested.

The point is if problem dogs or LE type dogs can be well trained without these tools, then for the needs of most people, whether the tool is banned or not, really is a non issue.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is a member on this forum that trains dogs for LE without the use of a prong. Another member here has been doing professional board and trains for over ten years and never uses a prong. Nor do they use any of the "tools" you suggested.
> 
> The point is if problem dogs or LE type dogs can be well trained without these tools, then for the needs of most people, whether the tool is banned or not, really is a non issue.


I'd be surprised if that's true but I'm not saying positive only can't work. What I'm saying is banning those tools doesn't stop the animal from being abused. It only stops them from being abused with that particular tool. It takes a good tool out of a lot of non abusive hands and doesn't solve any of the root problems.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm just curious, how is a ban on prong collars enforced? Aren't there covers that can make a prong collar look similar to a flat collar? My dogs have short coats, and even so the prongs are not very noticeable in their fur. I don't feel like I have to use a prong collar, but I like to use it when I'm walking one of the dogs with my young children in the double stroller. I like having as much control as I can just in case something unexpected happens...an out of control loose dog, ect. Thus far, no one has ever said anything to me about the collars, or even seemed to notice them. As far as an e-collar, it seems like one could use it on their own property if it was private enough, or out in some secluded place and who would ever know. If my training tool of choice were banned here, I would probably be tempted to just do what I wanted unless the penalties were very prohibitive. I might risk a several hundred dollar fine. I wouldn't risk my dogs being confiscated, of course, or paying thousands, or being convicted of animal abuse.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> I'd be surprised if that's true but I'm not saying positive only can't work. What I'm saying is banning those tools doesn't stop the animal from being abused. It only stops them from being abused with that particular tool. It takes a good tool out of a lot of non abusive hands and doesn't solve any of the root problems.


Who is talking about positive only? :thinking:

I disagree that banning the tool wouldn't stop the abuse from happening in many cases. 

I think the root of a lot of abuse with these tools lies in many trainers' recommendations, one trick pony trainers.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Who is talking about positive only? :thinking:
> 
> I disagree that banning the tool wouldn't stop the abuse from happening in many cases.
> 
> I think the root of a lot of abuse with these tools lies in many trainers' recommendations, one trick pony trainers.


I guess I wrongfully assumed you were by pointing out that they aren't necessary based on the anectdotal evidence of a board and train and LE trainer who don't use those tools. Maybe there's a more appropriate aversive that you could recommmend. 

But I strongly strongly disagree with the second and third points. What trainer in this country is recommending people tie out their dogs with a prong collar or set the remote to max and start zapping away? In fact I think the exact opposite, any instance of well meaning people accidentally abusing their dogs by doing those things is because they didn't work with a trainer. I'd say the majority of trainers don't fall into the one trick pony category either. They'll use an aversive in conjunction with a reward. Food shaping, training thru play, etc. if those are truly your experiences in life I feel badly for it but that's not an accurate portrayal of the majority.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just because prongs, head collars, harnesses, e-collars and choke chains are all legal here in the states does not mean that we all use them. 

Just because someone does not use the above implements does not mean they are pressing to get them banned. 

Just because someone does not use the above implements does not mean the dog has to live in a box, or can never be trusted off-lead. Or cannot be taken to some places because they cannot be controlled without them. That would be an indication of poor training. 

There are a lot of ways to train a dog. At the end of the day, there are a lot of people with dogs, at a lot of different levels of experience and ability with dogs. They have different goals and expectations and priorities. 

There are people who can train dogs without training aids. They do not all stuff their dogs with treats at every turn. They are not all mistaken between fur-babies and skin kids. They do not all equate positive with permissive. "Balanced training" does not need to use training aids, and while it generally suggests the use of corrections, good training can mean 95% or better positive and 5% or less corrections. 

It just seems like it is all or nothing, black or white, you either train with prongs or e-collars, or you have a dangerous, out of control dog, or you are purely positive and don't correct at all, or you shove treats into your dogs face all the time. Not true. In fact, I have seen more dangerous, out of control dogs sporting prong collars than those without the collars. And I have seen more dogs sporting prong collars having treats shoved into their faces. 

Good training is good training regardless to implements. It includes timing and consistency and realistic expectations, follow through, and the like. Bad training is bad training, and the outcome are dogs that cannot be safely taken places, that cannot go off lead, that may not come back when called.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> I guess I wrongfully assumed you were by pointing out that they aren't necessary based on the anectdotal evidence of a board and train and LE trainer who don't use those tools. Maybe there's a more appropriate aversive that you could recommmend.
> 
> But I strongly strongly disagree with the second and third points. What trainer in this country is recommending people tie out their dogs with a prong collar or set the remote to max and start zapping away? In fact I think the exact opposite, any instance of well meaning people accidentally abusing their dogs by doing those things is because they didn't work with a trainer. I'd say the majority of trainers don't fall into the one trick pony category either. They'll use an aversive in conjunction with a reward. Food shaping, training thru play, etc. if those are truly your experiences in life I feel badly for it but that's not an accurate portrayal of the majority.


I never said they don't use tools, I said they don't use prongs. 

I never said any trainer was recommending tying dogs out on prongs although I have seen some trainers suggest zapping with an e collar but I question their credentials. However, there are plenty of people that have come on here and stated on the first day of class their trainers recommended everybody get a prong or one that stated their trainer said all GSDs must be trained with a prong.

No where did I say that the majority of trainers were one trick ponys. I said those that insist everybody put a prong on it or every GSD owner put a prong on it without assessing the dogs is a one trick pony, plenty of them out there, some rather popular. 

Stop putting words in my mouth.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I never said they don't use tools, I said they don't use prongs.
> 
> I never said any trainer was recommending tying dogs out on prongs although I have seen some trainers suggest zapping with an e collar but I question their credentials. However, there are plenty of people that have come on here and stated on the first day of class their trainers recommended everybody get a prong or one that stated their trainer said all GSDs must be trained with a prong.
> 
> ...


Im not putting words in your mouth. You said the root of abuse was MANY trainers recommendations. Maybe we have different definitions of the word many. Then you followed it up by calling them one trick ponies. Your very examples of abuse earlier were the ones I mentioned. So if you're not saying the majority of trainers are one trick ponies who are the root cause of abuse what are you saying? To further muddy the waters you felt it necessary to say that a LE trainer and a board and train member of the forum don't use "those tools" but they apparently use other tools. What are they and what makes them more acceptable than "those tools"? As far as a prong being recommended on day 1 of training I'm not surprised. These are usually what, 6 week classes? They're teaching a pet house manners and it's going to be pretty tough to get a well mannered dog in 6 weeks with new trainers and no tools. Unless, once again, you have some better tools to recommend. I still haven't heard it.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

selzer said:


> Just because prongs, head collars, harnesses, e-collars and choke chains are all legal here in the states does not mean that we all use them.
> 
> Just because someone does not use the above implements does not mean they are pressing to get them banned.
> 
> ...


Seltzer no one suggested that balanced training should be split evenly between correction and positive. If you use corrections even 5% of the time you aren't a positive only trainer, regardless of what tool you choose to deliver that correction. 

It just seems like it's all or nothing, either black or white. Either you're positive only or you're an abusive monster using tools or torture. I've seen just as many posts saying people who need these tools are poor leaders and blah blah. 

If you're against the tool be against the tool but don't pretend it's because you're against abuse and think banning the tool would solve abuse.


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## Kibs (Oct 25, 2017)

Well, the thing is, many people that abuse these tools might not really be aware that it is abuse? They think "oh these tools exist, I must be using them right!!" Its different than just flat out hitting a dog with a frying pan imo. Same with people doing the "alpha roll-over" thing. They see it on TV, think its the right thing, and do it completely ignoring any common sense. 

I think, if there has to be some sort of regulation it should come in the form of a license. Or people needing to have taken a course before being able to purchase and use one of these tools. Of course this is going to be controversial too... and there will be ways for people to acquire these tools that go around it. But it might be a step in the right direction - and its better than a straight out ban as I'm sure we can all agree that access to these tools has its merits, but in the wrong hands they can do a lot of harm.

edit: Ok let me add to this: I think many of the people against it are very misinformed and usually have nothing to do with it and lets be honest, they probably never will. Then of course there are the people that think that because there is the possibility of abuse it should be banned.
I doubt people can change the mind of them. So there needs to be a solution thats less than black and white. It can't just be "no ban" "ban". That's just not going to work - people that want to abuse their dog will still do so and people that would've used these tools correctly won't be able to any longer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

thegooseman90 said:


> Seltzer no one suggested that balanced training should be split evenly between correction and positive. If you use corrections even 5% of the time you aren't a positive only trainer, regardless of what tool you choose to deliver that correction.
> 
> It just seems like it's all or nothing, either black or white. Either you're positive only or you're an abusive monster using tools or torture. I've seen just as many posts saying people who need these tools are poor leaders and blah blah.
> 
> If you're against the tool be against the tool but don't pretend it's because you're against abuse and think banning the tool would solve abuse.


First, the name is Selzer -- no T. I am partial to it because it is my name. I am not hiding behind some clever username. I am Selzer, not Seltzer. There is a difference. 

I am not using any tools. 99% of the time my dogs do not even have collars on. In class I use a leash and a martingale. Martingales are NOT correction collars. I never said I was positive only. I am perfectly comfortable telling my dogs "Eh!" if something is incorrectly done. And I have no problem with telling them OFF, or NO, or GO LAY DOWN, or that's MINE. 

Whatever. I don't poke them, kick them, punch them, use prong collars on them, use e-collars on them, or hang them up with choke chains -- all of which _could _be abuse. Correction collars are not necessarily abusive, even choke chains. But they can be abused. So can flat collars and leashes. One can abuse most things. 

What do I use? I use a relationship with the dog. I learn them and let them learn me, before I try to make them do stuff. And then I use real training tools: consistency and following through, praise and the occasional eh-eh, repetition and short sessions, starting and ending with something fun that they will be successful with, building the bond of trust. I use my voice, my body language, and occasionally hands-on to get them into the position I want. 

And, the funny thing is, I can take my dogs anywhere. I can put a youngster that hasn't been to a dozen classes in her life, on a down-stay in a busy dog show and walk away and have something to eat, sitting at a table while she waits. Or take a male who is not yet two to a show with thousands of dogs and let a seven year old manage the leash on the hike out of there. No prong collar, no e-collar. Just a simple martingale on a dog that has never been struck, or yanked or shocked. 

Ya know what, yes, there are people who do not have as much experience and have to train themselves to be consistent and to follow through, train the timing and so forth. Sometimes, I think that the prongs and e-collars are like training wheels. Training wheels are cool because they let a kid to ride without falling. Unfortunately, they do not help a child improve their balance. They still have to risk falling and learn how to move that front wheel to compensate for how they are leaning. Otherwise they will always be dependent on training wheels. Prongs and e-collars for some are like training wheels. People become dependent on them to provide a correction, and they never get good and communicating without the collars. 

I wish people wouldn't use them. I don't want them banned. I believe in freedom and less government. I do not think the government should be making laws about dog training tools. So, I don't want them banned. But like putting newspapers down the floor and teaching the dog to potty on them, is counter-productive. I think putting the prong or e-collar on the dog and training them to respect that correction is also counter-productive. Using something that brings instantaneous results without the background relationship rules, can make for an owner who is dependent on a tool, and a dog that cannot be trusted in situations without that tool.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

selzer said:


> First, the name is Selzer -- no T. I am partial to it because it is my name. I am not hiding behind some clever username. I am Selzer, not Seltzer. There is a difference.
> 
> I am not using any tools. 99% of the time my dogs do not even have collars on. In class I use a leash and a martingales. Martingales are NOT correction collars. I never said I was positive only. I am perfectly comfortable telling my dogs "Eh!" if something is incorrectly done. And I have no problem with telling them OFF, or NO, or GO LAY DOWN, or that's MINE.
> 
> ...


Dogs aren't people. They don't understand our words or reason. They understand consequence, both positive and negative. They do a good thing it results in something good. They do something bad it results in something bad. I'd like to think my dog and I have a good relationship - I play with him, I train him, I groom him, I correct him, I hold him and pet him. But when he's fence fighting a solid relationship and a stern but kind eh-eh or no isn't enough. But thanks to an e-collar I could tell him to leave it and he stops without the correction. If need be I can give him stim and remind him that leave it really does mean to leave it. Eventually over time it turned into him just leaving it on his own. I don't think that's a training wheel or a crutch or anything other than a means to an end and it gives him a little freedom that he wouldn't have for a very long time otherwise.

The trainers who use a prong from day one only have 6 weeks and usually only meet once or twice during that week. They have 6-12 hours. That's not nearly enough time to build a relationship with the dog or owner. That doesn't make them a one trick pony. 

The tool is an inanimate object - its not abusing anything. It's the owners who are abusing and it's pretty obvious when a dog is being abused. It's not an accident and it doesn't go unrecognized. This is to say they are intentionally abusing the dog and would continue to abuse the dog by some means. Be it starving the dog, physically abusing the dog, or just crating or chaining the dog and never letting it free. Tools don't abuse dogs, people abuse dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> Im not putting words in your mouth. You said the root of abuse was MANY trainers recommendations. Maybe we have different definitions of the word many. Then you followed it up by calling them one trick ponies. Your very examples of abuse earlier were the ones I mentioned. So if you're not saying the majority of trainers are one trick ponies who are the root cause of abuse what are you saying? To further muddy the waters you felt it necessary to say that a LE trainer and a board and train member of the forum don't use "those tools" but they apparently use other tools. What are they and what makes them more acceptable than "those tools"? As far as a prong being recommended on day 1 of training I'm not surprised. These are usually what, 6 week classes? They're teaching a pet house manners and it's going to be pretty tough to get a well mannered dog in 6 weeks with new trainers and no tools. Unless, once again, you have some better tools to recommend. I still haven't heard it.




I use "many" as in a large number of, I never said the majority.

I never said trainers advised ALL of the things mentioned as forms of possible abuse, sorry if my words are confusing, just ask for clarification if needed.

I did not ask the other members what they use in lieu of prongs as I already know that many people don't train with prongs or e collars. I am not so sure what it is that is baffling about somebody training without using those specific tools. Looking for some clarification here please.

When I took my first obedience classes, they were eight weeks on leash and 8 weeks off leash. *During* the second set of classes the trainer was sending us off to start titling our dogs. AND we did title and we did it without prongs or e collars or any other "abusive" alternatives previously mentioned.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I use "many" as in a large number of, I never said the majority.
> 
> I never said trainers advised ALL of the things mentioned as forms of possible abuse, sorry if my words are confusing, just ask for clarification if needed.
> 
> ...


Well it's not the lack to of those tools specifically that's baffling. It's the lack of any sort of aversive tool. I believe positive only training can work but I think it's far more time consuming especially if the basis of the training is to build an excellent relationship and understanding with the dog. I can't imagine law enforcement agency's have that sort of time and I can't imagine that a board and train has that sort of time. Even more so if I think it the board and is attempting to fix problems. It's easy to shape a new behavior without any sort of correction, but it's very difficult and time consuming to stop an already problematic behavior that way. Hopefully that clarifies that. 

Now I'll need some clarification too. What sort of titles were you earning and how young were these dogs if they were starting their first obedience class? By second set of classes do you mean once you started your off leash training or do you mean the second day of the first 8 weeks of on leash training?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I use "many" as in a large number of, I never said the majority.
> 
> I never said trainers advised ALL of the things mentioned as forms of possible abuse, sorry if my words are confusing, just ask for clarification if needed.
> 
> ...


This is so interesting. Many years ago when I was training Arwen. We actually DID work off-lead in class. Everyone was using a cotton slip-lead on leash, and we were all working off-lead before the end of the classes. 

But now I go to classes and everyone's dogs are sporting prong collars. And if they aren't at the beginning of classes, they are by 2-3 classes in. And I go to an advanced class and EVERY dog is on a prong but mine. And I want to work off lead because I am planning on titling in Rally Advanced or for the CD, and often the instructor says, "no." No? The thing is, if I drop my lead on a stay, 3 other people who aren't ready, whose dogs aren't ready will also want to drop theirs. Same thing with off-lead. 

So now, I don't know what you have to do to get a class where the dogs work off-lead. It seems like all these prong-collar-trained dogs can't get off lead quicker than our non-prong-collar-trained dogs. But everyone thinks that dogs trained with a prong are more reliable, can have freedom sooner. What a joke.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> Well it's not the lack to of those tools specifically that's baffling. It's the lack of any sort of aversive tool. I believe positive only training can work but I think it's far more time consuming especially if the basis of the training is to build an excellent relationship and understanding with the dog. I can't imagine law enforcement agency's have that sort of time and I can't imagine that a board and train has that sort of time. Even more so if I think it the board and is attempting to fix problems. It's easy to shape a new behavior without any sort of correction, but it's very difficult and time consuming to stop an already problematic behavior that way. Hopefully that clarifies that.
> 
> Now I'll need some clarification too. What sort of titles were you earning and how young were these dogs if they were starting their first obedience class? By second set of classes do you mean once you started your off leash training or do you mean the second day of the first 8 weeks of on leash training?


I don't know why you keep bringing up positive only training or a lack of aversives. A good dog trainer has many tools in their tool boxes. 

We were earning basic obedience titles, and these were with dogs that had been totally untrained until they started classes at six months of age, so the dogs would have been starting trials at about 9 months of age. By the second set of classes, I meant after completing 8 weeks of on leash and a couple of weeks into off leash. Better yet, back then there was no food or toys involved, the dogs worked for praise and were corrected with leash pops!

I asked the board and train member what forms of corrections he uses and he stated it can widely differ with each dog and vary with situations. He teaches a negative marker, will use leash pops usually on a flat collar and maybe even shut the dog down as in for example the dog is excited and jumping around he may grab it by its collar and contain it until it settles among other methods. Of course this is all far more simplified than what he said, but just to get the gist of his message as briefly as possible.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't know why you keep bringing up positive only training or a lack of aversives. A good dog trainer has many tools in their tool boxes.
> 
> We were earning basic obedience titles, and these were with dogs that had been totally untrained until they started classes at six months of age, so the dogs would have been starting trials at about 9 months of age. By the second set of classes, I meant after completing 8 weeks of on leash and a couple of weeks into off leash. Better yet, back then there was no food or toys involved, the dogs worked for praise and were corrected with leash pops!
> 
> I asked the board and train member what forms of corrections he uses and he stated it can widely differ with each dog and vary with situations. He teaches a negative marker, will use leash pops usually on a flat collar and maybe even shut the dog down as in for example the dog is excited and jumping around he may grab it by its collar and contain it until it settles among other methods. Of course this is all far more simplified than what he said, but just to get the gist of his message as briefly as possible.


Well because I asked and never got a response. Now I have something to go by. Leash pops on a flat collar. That's still a correction and if the dog works for that great. I can 100% guarantee you I'd damage my dogs neck in some way if I tried to use a flat collar to correct him for some of the things I use the e-collar for and if I reached down to grab a flat collar during those things there's a good chance I'd get bit for it. 

But a slip leash is still a choking instrument so it could just as easily be used to hang and abuse a dog as any other tool we've spoke of. 

I guess at the end of the day we'll never see eye to eye on this issue. I think any tool can be abusive to dogs, including a flat collar. And I think the people who choose to abuse their dog will do so with or without a prong or e-collar. I'm not here to knock on anyone's training methods. For my dog and I it takes more than relationship and trust building exercises and sometimes we require the use of one those tools and I don't think it's hurt our relationship one bit. Different strokes for different folks right?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> This is so interesting. Many years ago when I was training Arwen. We actually DID work off-lead in class. Everyone was using a cotton slip-lead on leash, and we were all working off-lead before the end of the classes.
> 
> But now I go to classes and everyone's dogs are sporting prong collars. And if they aren't at the beginning of classes, they are by 2-3 classes in. And I go to an advanced class and EVERY dog is on a prong but mine. And I want to work off lead because I am planning on titling in Rally Advanced or for the CD, and often the instructor says, "no." No? The thing is, if I drop my lead on a stay, 3 other people who aren't ready, whose dogs aren't ready will also want to drop theirs. Same thing with off-lead.
> 
> So now, I don't know what you have to do to get a class where the dogs work off-lead. It seems like all these prong-collar-trained dogs can't get off lead quicker than our non-prong-collar-trained dogs. But everyone thinks that dogs trained with a prong are more reliable, can have freedom sooner. What a joke.


Are those people coming in with prongs as advised by the trainer, or changing to prongs, were the prongs recommended by the trainers? 

I have not taken any classes in years so I have no idea what goes on in classes today. 

Today, I start all my training off lead. I know a few people that train to higher levels or train professionally and they start their dogs off lead. Some of my dogs have not been leashed until they are two years of age and my dogs are leashed only when they will be near traffic, going into a store, in crowds or I detect a potentially problematic situation. Outside of that, it is no stinking leashes.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

When I went to training class with max -many did not use a prong most of the People they were practicing for trial-that is what they did practice as if in a real trial in a controlled setting. Dogs were off leash. On occasion a dog would break a sit stay was no major deal. I practiced by choice a just small amount of off leash work in class. I use prong collars and for max an e collar when on off leash on trails and beaches - and also do not depend on them -now-even if there is oodles of wildlife nearby. I can use candy necklaces as collars - for walks in the neighborhood- presently speaking -if anyone really cares. My dogs are happy whatever I use because I use it right and far from abusive.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

selzer said:


> ... And I want to work off lead because I am planning on titling in Rally Advanced or for the CD, and often the instructor says, "no." No? The thing is, if I drop my lead on a stay, 3 other people who aren't ready, whose dogs aren't ready will also want to drop theirs. Same thing with off-lead.
> 
> So now, I don't know what you have to do to get a class where the dogs work off-lead.


I'd pick a different facility. There's a club where I trained obedience for a while with my first GSD, and the obedience instructor mandated a choke chain and 6' leather lead, PERIOD. I showed up at the first class with a nylon leash and was haughtily informed to buy a proper one by the following week. Plenty of students and dogs under her direction went on to be very successful in competition AKC obedience. It bored me to tears, but there were no out of control dogs, and it was rare for dogs to blow off a command more than once or twice. 

I tried somewhere else for a while, and that instructor was not very strict about equipment or standards of behavior - dogs broke their downs/stays pretty often, and I was a little bit horrified at the chaos. I didn't train there for very long.

If you don't like the lack of obedience and unreliable behavior of the other dogs, it's probably time to change clubs. I like being around instructors and other handlers whose abilities exceed my own, so I can keep getting better.... if I felt like the most talented person with the best performing dog, I'd stop paying that person and move on up. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Today, I start all my training off lead. I know a few people that train to higher levels or train professionally and they start their dogs off lead.


Same here. 

And furthermore, I'm not interested in paying any trainer who doesn't have solid ability to train their own dogs, and the dogs of others, in reliable off leash behavior. Formal/competitive ring obedience isn't my thing (though I greatly respect teams who do it well), but GSDs are smart enough that they shouldn't live their entire life at the end of a rope.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

We all live different lifestyles. During my brief part-time stint at a big box pet store, I saw far more dogs on haltis and gentle leaders and no-pull type harnesses, than on prongs. So I don't see prongs as super rampant among pet owners. 

It also depends on what you are doing with the dog. I don't use many tools to train for sport. Mostly just the basic flat collar, and a leash. I certainly am not using a prong or e-collar to train for BH with my youngest. She is highly motivated for the work. If needed, I'll use different tools as we advance in IPO. 

But, this same dog certainly has been trained with e-collar to recall every single time I give the command, and to stop her from chasing deer. I do not take chances when I have my dogs off leash. I require they stay in sight, and come when called. I do not use long lines because it's totally impractical for winter trails, wooded trails, super fast dogs, and multiple dogs. 

Maybe, maybe, there are trainers out there with the same number, breed-type, dogs I have that hike daily in wilderness areas with their pack off leash and have never had to use tools. Great for them, seriously. I am always looking to up my game. 

I train my dogs in the fastest, most humane ways I can and research methods extensively. For a long time I thought maybe cookies and love was all I needed. It's not. It's because I so dearly love my dogs that I train with e-collars so that I can protect them from making potentially deadly decisions. They are in no way cowed or abused, quite the opposite. They get to have a full, happy, adventure-filled life because they are trained with the e-collars. 

I am totally fine with people using whatever tools and training methods they find successful. But let's be careful and compare apples to apples. My dogs performs perfectly in crowded areas around other dogs off leash with zero tools. Or if we go into Home Depot, PetSmart, the outlet stores, anywhere like that. But the dogs wear e-collars out on the trails because that is a different situation with different distractions. Also, there's pack drive as well. Controlling multiple dogs is quite different than working with just one. 

Again, I'm not claiming to be the greatest dog trainer on earth. Not even close. But if a tool works fast, is humane, and allows a dog freedom within a week, I'll use it.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

And, yes e-collars and prongs are banned.

Seems like perhaps, dogs and humans would be happier if they had access to these off-leash training tools, so dogs could run around wildlife and livestock but still be under voice control. The country enacted leash laws which are arguable less humane to the dogs than proper e-collar training. 

I stand by my choice to use off leash training tools properly so that my dogs and I can enjoy our off leash hikes on our incredible public lands. I'm off on one now.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> That really isn't so different from here. Yes, the tools are still legal here. However, people are shamed and guilted into positive only training. There are places I don't take my dogs for their own safety because of this.
> 
> Example: Went into PetSmart to get something minor and it was hot so took Seger in with me. First, I can hear dogs erupting inside the door while standing next to my car in the parking lot. So I wait. Out comes a couple, 3 dogs on flexi leads (1 large male German Shepherd, a small dog and another large dog). The man with the GSD obliviously meanders in a straight line at my car while I'm standing with the door open next to Seger's crate. I asked "hey, can you please move back because he is not going to like you so close." I got a very nasty response from the woman. So I stepped back and let Seger light up. Problem solved.
> 
> ...



I don't have much respect for box store dog trainers either. But I will say I took my dog to Petco because it was the only place to get a CGC. By this point the boy was big and strong, mostly very cooperative but would ocasionally have a testosterone moment when another dog postured at him. i asked the guy on the first day can I bring him in a prong and he said sure. He can't test in it but you can train in it. i actually never had to use it but better that than need it and not have it.

i haven't had it on him in awhile but today we got the green light from the vet for a leashwalk. He has been cooped up for a week and a half and he's going batty. So i put a prong on him and a safety strap to a flat collar and we had a nice walk. I am grateful i can do what I need and want to do to keep my dog safe and a good citizen.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> This is so interesting. Many years ago when I was training Arwen. We actually DID work off-lead in class. Everyone was using a cotton slip-lead on leash, and we were all working off-lead before the end of the classes.
> 
> But now I go to classes and everyone's dogs are sporting prong collars. And if they aren't at the beginning of classes, they are by 2-3 classes in. And I go to an advanced class and EVERY dog is on a prong but mine. And I want to work off lead because I am planning on titling in Rally Advanced or for the CD, and often the instructor says, "no." No? The thing is, if I drop my lead on a stay, 3 other people who aren't ready, whose dogs aren't ready will also want to drop theirs. Same thing with off-lead.
> 
> So now, I don't know what you have to do to get a class where the dogs work off-lead. It seems like all these prong-collar-trained dogs can't get off lead quicker than our non-prong-collar-trained dogs. But everyone thinks that dogs trained with a prong are more reliable, can have freedom sooner. What a joke.


I have a very different experience around here. I've gone to drop in training classes at an AKC club, and two individual's training centers both of whom attract all the local AKC competitors, though different groups due to their locations. I've almost never, maybe never, seen a prong collar on a dog at any of these places. Nylon slip leads are the training collar of choice around here.

What I see that bothers me around here with some of the AKC folks is yelling, hitting, and dogs doing obedience routines like they are walking the green mile.

I do use a prong but not for obedience. I've almost never given my dog a correction in obedience training-- he wants to work an he wants to do what i want him to do so almost 99.9% of the time if he isn't performing like i want him to it's because I didn't teach him right and I can figure out how to change what i am doing to get what i want out of him.

The only thing I can think of I've corrected him for was mouthing me. He got in the habit of mouthing at the front of my vest because he was ramped for his ball. And I'd say heel, and he would step off to heel, but he would also just kind of slow mo nip at my vest. It almost seemed subconscious, he didn't think he was going to get anything for it. And what worked the best for that was I would say "ow!!" like he really hurt me (I can't even feel it when he does this, but I know he gets upset if he thinks he has hurt someone)

i think one barely leash pop on a slip lead and two "ow"s reduced the mouthing by 90%. It may not be completely extinguished but i am not worried that I can't get rid of it. I had ignored it hoping it would extinguish on its own and it did not, which was my mistake because I let him practice it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WIBackpacker said:


> I'd pick a different facility. There's a club where I trained obedience for a while with my first GSD, and the obedience instructor mandated a choke chain and 6' leather lead, PERIOD. I showed up at the first class with a nylon leash and was haughtily informed to buy a proper one by the following week. Plenty of students and dogs under her direction went on to be very successful in competition AKC obedience. It bored me to tears, but there were no out of control dogs, and it was rare for dogs to blow off a command more than once or twice.
> 
> I tried somewhere else for a while, and that instructor was not very strict about equipment or standards of behavior - dogs broke their downs/stays pretty often, and I was a little bit horrified at the chaos. I didn't train there for very long.
> 
> ...


The thing is, I do like the trainer and have been working with her for 12 years, and countless dogs. 

I am that person who doesn't do ANYTHING with my dogs between classes. And the trainer is an obedience judge, at least a rally judge (I cannot show under her though). She has champion dogs. They do use prongs and they do suggest them to many of their students. Most of what they train IS basic household manners. They do not bother me with collar choices. 

They are good people. And, I am in the classes mostly for the exposure to dogs and people, but it does not hurt to go through the various exercises. And they set up rally courses and we have fun with that. 

It just seems like the folks around here only want so much from training. Sometimes I will be on my fourth or fifth or sixth dog, and coming to classes with folks that are on the same dog. Which is fine. They are doing something with their dog. And sometimes those dogs are still in prongs. 

And, no, sometimes I cannot get what I am looking for because the class isn't there yet. It is hard to complain because they are really accommodating, when I sub in a green dog when a bitch goes into heat, or bring and elderly lady that hasn't been to classes for years. 

The trainer that I trained Arwen with, is dead. 
The trainer that I trained Dubya with, is dead. 
The trainer I began Jenna with is a flake. 
The trainer I am using is the ones I started Babs with. 

But I have trained with a half a dozen other trainers, when I could not get enough classes with my trainers, for the number of dogs I have, especially youngsters. And, they are the best trainers in my area. 

They are now training out of a facility farther away from me than their home and the place in their home town where they rented space for training. It is more costly, and farther to drive to. The clientele are no better. Actually the best are those that come out to the trainers home and work outside in the summers. But even that is really limited. They have classes something like one evening a week for a number of weeks in the summer. Which is fine, if you aren't working second shift. 

Which brings me down to Saturdays at the farther location. And then the six weeks of classes cost too much. And if I have to work, well, this is why Quinnie made it to 4 of her six classes. And the second set it was another 4 out of 6. 

I have done agility at a different facility, with a lady I respect. But I am fat and old, and while the dogs have fun in agility, it isn't my thing. I will do it for fun with the dogs, but then I am one of _those_ owners. I really do not care about getting my footwork right so I can send them into the tunnel and pirouette and send them into a jump or dog walk. Yep, it just isn't my thing. 

At the facility, my current trainers are currently out of, there are other trainers. Some of whom have Rally classes or are deeper into obedience. Did I mention, I dislike most obedience people, especially those that show in obedience. And yes, I am one of them, but I am not. My friend who has my pup, Matilda, who is now 8, said, she doesn't fit in with the obedience people. Her dog has her second utility leg, and she feels she doesn't fit in with them. I watched her dog run, but hung around the Rally rings. And yes, at the ecumenical Christian gatherings, I am hanging out side with the smokers, even though I don't smoke and never did. Just who I am. Rather be hanging out with the real people. 

So yes, I have heard some negative stuff about some of the trainers over there, and I just don't want to deal with the change, considering I might want (need) to sub in a dog/bitch, or I might not make it to half the classes due to my schedule. I am too old and crochety to take any guff about that. My dogs like to eat every day, and the only way that happens is if I make hay while the sun is shining. No hubby to take care of the house payment and the dog food bill. And while my sister and my parents have been awesome, if there is any opportunity for over-time, even if it means losing dog classes, even if it means missing a show that I am entered in, I have to take it. 

And, I have worked the courses off-lead a few times. The thing is, do I try to move up with Quinnie, or move on to Ramona or Kojak. What I need is a place where I can crate them inside, and take three classes back to back on Sundays.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> We all live different lifestyles. During my brief part-time stint at a big box pet store, I saw far more dogs on haltis and gentle leaders and no-pull type harnesses, than on prongs. So I don't see prongs as super rampant among pet owners.
> 
> It also depends on what you are doing with the dog. I don't use many tools to train for sport. Mostly just the basic flat collar, and a leash. I certainly am not using a prong or e-collar to train for BH with my youngest. She is highly motivated for the work. If needed, I'll use different tools as we advance in IPO.
> 
> ...


This is what I was trying to say a few pages back, but you've said it sooooo much better.

Editing to add: I'm back (or stay with) this forum even though I no longer have a gsd because saying what I or Muskeg just did would get me banned on another forum (dogforum) where any aversive, even a 'no' is equated with abuse.


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## KoaGirl (Jan 5, 2018)

I have a 1 1/2 yr old GSD, she was recently diagnosed with Megaesphogus, we had her in obedient/protection training using prong collar but since this new diagnoses and needing to keep her neck and throat clear we have opted and chose a Perfect Fit Modular Harness, does anyone have a good, bad or experience using this harness. I would love to hear. Thank you in advance.


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