# Panda Shepard Puppies?



## jenn5175

I have an 8 yr old GSD, Rex, whom is my life. Lately I have been playing with the idea of getting a puppy to have Rex help train before he gets too old. Not sold on the idea yet, but just starting to think about it.

I am obsessed with unique coloring, but would love a purebred GSD because Rex is such an amazing dog. I recently came across Panda Shepards and LOVE their coloring! However, everything I find - even in here - the links are broken and the info is old. 

Does anyone know a breeder in or around Michigan that breeds purebred, AKC pandas? I don't want to show, just want to verify it isn't a cross being passed off as a shepherd. I want the brain and personality of a pure shepherd, but would love an unexpected color if possible. 

Send me over anyone you have seen that breeds panda shepherds - thanks!


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## WateryTart

You are not likely to find any truly good breeders producing off-standard colors or breeding specifically for color within standard. (I'll leave the white shepherd discussion out of this post.)

The panda pattern is a mutation, and I would be suspicious of a breeder who was consistently producing panda puppies: What are they overlooking in terms of health and temperament in order to get the panda markings?


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## CometDog

^ That, 100%. Ask yourself what is more important to you- having that solid temperament and health you love in your current GSD, or the look of a unique mutation. The odds of getting both in one package are really stacked against you.


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## Armistice

A panda puppy will be very expensive and that right there is a red flag for bad, greedy breeders who only care about money

Some colors are a DQ for AKC so I think finding a reputable breeder only breeding for pandas would be nigh impossible

I know when I was looking I would've also loved a panda. Found out how much they were and stopped looking there and decided to get a red and black GSD. Well, Zoe was within our budget, and her mom was a red and black with a sable dad. Zoe is a wonderful patterned sable and has red coloring on her head... so I kind of got what I wanted, haha

I mean, I'd rather have a slightly ugly car that is reliable rather than a bitchin' looking car that drives like crap and is utterly useless

A long living, healthy dog will give you much more happiness than something that looks amazing, but riddled with health issues (I'm not saying they are, I'm just making an analogy)


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## Curing

I specifically know quite a few Panda Shepherd breeders who breed dogs out of either health tested and titled parents or just health tested parents at the least. Their puppies are usually priced the same as their traditional colours and I would consider them very reputable. 

I believe coloured breeders get a bad rep because people often associate them with greed, byb, or producing mediocre dogs but times are changing and colour is just that. Colour. 

It neither affects the workibility, temperment or drive of the dog and doesn't make the breeder a bad one. 

Personally I'm not sure how people are more readily accepting of oversized dogs (which does affect workibility) over off-standard colour, but thats just me.

**Also wanted to add that the Panda mutation is dominant meaning these breeders aren't breeding only Panda's. They can breed any dog with the mutation to any dog without it and produce panda puppies. That means theres always the possibility of actually having some great lines in your dog.


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## Sabis mom

Curing said:


> I specifically know quite a few Panda Shepherd breeders who breed dogs out of either health tested and titled parents or just health tested parents at the least. Their puppies are usually priced the same as their traditional colours and I would consider them very reputable.
> 
> I believe coloured breeders get a bad rep because people often associate them with greed, byb, or producing mediocre dogs but times are changing and colour is just that. Colour.
> 
> It neither affects the workibility, temperment or drive of the dog and doesn't make the breeder a bad one.
> 
> Personally I'm not sure how people are more readily accepting of oversized dogs (which does affect workibility) over off-standard colour, but thats just me.
> 
> **Also wanted to add that the Panda mutation is dominant meaning these breeders aren't breeding only Panda's. They can breed any dog with the mutation to any dog without it and produce panda puppies. That means theres always the possibility of actually having some great lines in your dog.


There are always people on here looking for panda's/blues/livers and whatever. If you know of reputable breeders of such dogs please post. 
But I have to be honest, I just pulled up about 10 different panda breeders that ranged from sketchy at best to not much better then mills. One place breeding every color of the rainbow and claiming to be superb breeders, no mention of health testing, no pedigrees linked or even registered names and a whole lot of the old fashioned even tempered great with my kids raised in my kitchen and of course straight backed. Even a pay here button. Oh and the "no good dog is a bad color" quote.


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## WIBackpacker

If I met a panda GSD that worked sheep properly or functioned competitively in a breed-appropriate working venue, I would think highly of the dog and follow its progeny with interest. 

Somehow that just doesn't happen.


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## LuvShepherds

Curing said:


> I specifically know quite a few Panda Shepherd breeders who breed dogs out of either health tested and titled parents or just health tested parents at the least. Their puppies are usually priced the same as their traditional colours and I would consider them very reputable.
> 
> I believe coloured breeders get a bad rep because people often associate them with greed, byb, or producing mediocre dogs but times are changing and colour is just that. Colour.
> 
> It neither affects the workibility, temperment or drive of the dog and doesn't make the breeder a bad one.
> 
> Personally I'm not sure how people are more readily accepting of oversized dogs (which does affect workibility) over off-standard colour, but thats just me.


Color is not just color, it is a serious fault. The goal should be to breed as close to standard as possible. 

From AKC:
Official German Shepherd Breed Standard 

Color: The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.


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## Armistice

LuvShepherds said:


> Color is not just color, it is a serious fault. The goal should be to breed as close to standard as possible.
> 
> From AKC:
> Official German Shepherd Breed Standard
> 
> Color: The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.


AKC is also the reason dachshunds have back problems because "longer is better" and pugs getting worse on breathing because "the flatter the face the better." As far as I'm concerned, the AKC is a joke and ruins breeds


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## LuvShepherds

Armistice said:


> AKC is also the reason dachshunds have back problems because "longer is better" and pugs getting worse on breathing because "the flatter the face the better." As far as I'm concerned, the AKC is a joke and ruins breeds


One has nothing to do with the other. The GSD standard is accepted. I happened to take it from the AKC website. From United Schutzhund Clubs of America.

Colors

Colors are black with reddish-brown, brown and yellow to light grey markings; single-colored black, grey with darker shading, black saddle and mask. Unobtrusive, small white marks on chest as well as very light color on insides are permissible, but not desirable. The tip of the nose must be black in all colors. Dogs with lack of mask, light to piercing eye color, as well as with light to whitish markings on the chest and the insides, pale nails and red tip of tail are considered to be lacking in pigmentation. The undercoat shows a light greyish tone. The color white is not allowed.


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## Curing

Colour doesn't affect the workibily of the breed at all. Before the standard was set there were many different colours. If blues had been the standard colour then black and tans would be the ones being considered as faults. If you think of it in that way then you realize how much colour is based on preference and not actual functionality. 

Colour IS just colour, its someones preference turned into standard that has no barings on the quality of the dog. The only reason theres so much stigma against these offstandard colours is because people put them on this pedestal and treat them differently then they do dogs of a standard colour. 

This dog is liver so it must be defective.
This dog has white spotting so its obviously poorly bred. 

While that may be the case in some dogs and some lines, colour isn't the culprit of a poorly bred dog, poor breeders are

I've seen livers with extremely rich colouring. So rich you wouldve thought they were black. I've also seen pandas come in rich black and red. And whites throw rich tans. Long ago it was assumed whites diluted the colour of the breed. That was debunked and we now know better.

Panda isn't even a DQ OR a fault if we're going into logistics. Go a read the AKC standard yourself and you'll see that no where does it fault a dog for having large amounts of white (SV is actually different)

So that begs the question "why aren't they shown?"
Because the misinformation going around that they are a DQ or a fault. People arent aware that they can be shown. And while a Panda wouldn't necessarily place due to preference of the judge they also wouldn't automatically be faulted like livers or blues nor would the automatically be DQ'd like whites. It would be strictly up the the individual judge. 

This whole idea that certain colours are "bad" or "subpar" just because of their colour is interesting to me when apparently its okay to have 110 standard colours and long coated variation, both at which do affect the dogs original purpose.


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## LuvShepherds

Armistice said:


> AKC is also the reason dachshunds have back problems because "longer is better" and pugs getting worse on breathing because "the flatter the face the better." As far as I'm concerned, the AKC is a joke and ruins breeds


One has nothing to do with the other. The GSD standard is everywhere. I happened to take it from the AKC website. From United Schutzhund Clubs of America:

Colors

Colors are black with reddish-brown, brown and yellow to light grey markings; single-colored black, grey with darker shading, black saddle and mask. Unobtrusive, small white marks on chest as well as very light color on insides are permissible, but not desirable. The tip of the nose must be black in all colors. Dogs with lack of mask, light to piercing eye color, as well as with light to whitish markings on the chest and the insides, pale nails and red tip of tail are considered to be lacking in pigmentation. The undercoat shows a light greyish tone. The color white is not allowed.


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## Thecowboysgirl

My strong belief is that any dog who is healthy, performing at something and titling, with a good temperament judged not only by the people who live with and love that dog but also unbiased and educated third parties in some fashion...any dog meeting above criteria should not be "disqualified" or thought to be lesser because of its color.

The whites are rather a separate thing at this point and I don't think they should be included with the rest of the color issue. As I have said before they didn't exactly choose to breed only for white for fun, they were kicked out of the breed so they don't have much choice. 

Breeders who breed for exotic colors to sell to pet people are not reputable breeders.


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## Curing

WIBackpacker said:


> If I met a panda GSD that worked sheep properly or functioned competitively in a breed-appropriate working venue, I would think highly of the dog and follow its progeny with interest.
> 
> Somehow that just doesn't happen.


You're right, its not common at all which I think is sad, but I do know people who are aspiring towards those goals and others who have sadly tried and were not welcomed (we're talking completely turned away by clubs and trainers) and thus got discouraged and gave up. 

One has to remember that when looking at dogs who are used in areas such as IPO, most people look for the high drive working line. That means the usual people who are looking into the offstandards are pet owners, people who will never compete or only to small trials. So that means even if the dog DOES have what it takes, they'll never get a chance to prove it and thats why its not common to see any offstandard dogs in those venues. 

Luckily as I said above, times are changing and alot of people who work with off standard colours are switching gears to breed higher drive dogs that they can actually title, as up until recently people were breeding more mellow "family friendly" dogs. And seeing breeders who are determined to make a big splash and become more active to show their dogs aren't any different.


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## Curing

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My strong belief is that any dog who is healthy, performing at something and titling, with a good temperament judged not only by the people who live with and love that dog but also unbiased and educated third parties in some fashion...any dog meeting above criteria should not be "disqualified" or thought to be lesser because of its color.
> 
> The whites are rather a separate thing at this point and I don't think they should be included with the rest of the color issue. As I have said before they didn't exactly choose to breed only for white for fun, they were kicked out of the breed so they don't have much choice.
> 
> Breeders who breed for exotic colors to sell to pet people are not reputable breeders.


I think the thing to remember here is that its not the colour that makes the dog bad, but the breeder themselves. 

As I mentioned above, one of the biggest reasons offstandard coloured breeders cater to pet people is because I think most are very clearly aware that people who show or compete in working venues, aren't interested in those offstandards. While I don't believe diluting a dogs temperment down to suit a family is right, I will admit to understanding why if they know those are going to be the only people who are interested (I guess similar to the breeders who breed those 130lbs docile monsters).
If it were the case that people who worked their dogs didn't care about the colours and only the workibility, drive, and temperment and lets say, found a nice liver that fit those standards then we may have found that more breeders worked towards that instead of producing pet quality dogs.

I also think that if offstandard colours wouldn't have been such a "hot topic" most irreptuable breeders wouldn't have any leverage at which to sell their dogs at. Its kind of like telling a child they can't have a certain candy and forbidding it and then the child buying that candy while they're alone just because it was forbidden. It becomes so much more "valuable" when in reality its not. 

I'm super into dog coat colour genetics, so id be lying if I said I wouldn't be one to want to breed every colour just out of sheer curiosity of discovering the genetics behind it all.


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## Pytheis

For the people saying that color is just color...

Have you researched what happens when two blue merle Australian shepherds are bred together? Deaf, blind, dead pups. Color is not just a color all the time. A dog with a mutation like panda could have hidden health issues or genes that could be passed on to CAUSE health issues. Color mutations like that are usually not wise to breed. It is still a mutation, and no, color is not always just color. It has hidden consequences.


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## Curing

Pytheis said:


> For the people saying that color is just color...
> 
> Have you researched what happens when two blue merle Australian shepherds are bred together? Deaf, blind, dead pups. Color is not just a color all the time. A dog with a mutation like panda could have hidden health issues or genes that could be passed on to CAUSE health issues. Color mutations like that are usually not wise to breed. It is still a mutation, and no, color is not always just color. It has hidden consequences.


When I say color is just color. I mean that in our breed, most colors (with the exception of blue) don't have any negative problems associated with them and thus ARE just color. If a color was affecting the dogs health then of course that shouldn't be bred, but most colors that occur naturally in the GSD breed have no health concerns with the exception of Blue which can cause CDA. Personally I'm not a fan of blues just for that reason, but it is possible to breed blues without worry of that problem. 

In terms of Panda shepherds, the only concern with the color is when breeding 2 Pandas together (Its a dominant gene) which causes reabsorption of any embryo that gets double of the gene. That means no puppies are born with health problems, but you would get a smaller litter.


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## Pytheis

Curing said:


> When I say color is just color. I mean that in our breed, most colors (with the exception of blue) don't have any negative problems associated with them and thus ARE just color. If a color was affecting the dogs health then of course that shouldn't be bred, but most colors that occur naturally in the GSD breed have no health concerns with the exception of Blue which can cause CDA. Personally I'm not a fan of blues just for that reason, but it is possible to breed blues without worry of that problem.
> 
> In terms of Panda shepherds, the only concern with the color is when breeding 2 Pandas together (Its a dominant gene) which causes reabsorption of any embryo that gets double of the gene. That means no puppies are born with health problems, but you would get a smaller litter.


See, I haven't done any research on panda shepherds. How much do we really know about the genetics for them? What if there's a hidden problem that doesn't pop up until a few generations down?


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## Curing

Pytheis said:


> See, I haven't done any research on panda shepherds. How much do we really know about the genetics for them? What if there's a hidden problem that doesn't pop up until a few generations down?


We actually know a lot about them because UCDavis was involved as soon as the first one popped up in a litter (in 2000). Since then there of course have been GENERATIONS of panda's, in fact enough for some people to question making it its own breed (I don't support this personally). 

Its a white spotting gene like any other, this one just so happened to be caused by a mutation in the sperm.


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## WIBackpacker

Curing said:


> You're right, its not common at all which I think is sad, but I do know people who are aspiring towards those goals and others who have sadly tried and were not welcomed (we're talking completely turned away by clubs and trainers) and thus got discouraged and gave up.
> 
> One has to remember that when looking at dogs who are used in areas such as IPO, most people look for the high drive working line. That means the usual people who are looking into the offstandards are pet owners, people who will never compete or only to small trials. So that means even if the dog DOES have what it takes, they'll never get a chance to prove it and thats why its not common to see any offstandard dogs in those venues.
> 
> Luckily as I said above, times are changing and alot of people who work with off standard colours are switching gears to breed higher drive dogs that they can actually title, as up until recently people were breeding more mellow "family friendly" dogs. And seeing breeders who are determined to make a big splash and become more active to show their dogs aren't any different.


Well see... you're underscoring my point.

I don't personally look at the GSD breed through one venue-exclusive lens. 

In fact, I'm an oddball that prefers herding. 

As I said above, if I saw a panda colored GSD that works livestock well or performs good quality breed appropriate work better than other GSDs, it would absolutely catch my eye. 

Otherwise? Nope. I would see no reason to set an individual panda dog above a level with performance/work tested GSD's of other colors.


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## Sabis mom

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it all Pandas trace back to a single dog. One who in spite of having fair hips and elbows, and only ever earning a CD title was bred repeatedly to provide a foundation for the panda shepherds. And the breeder continues to trade on this one, assuredly pleasant and sweet looking, unremarkable bitch. 
I am not one to focus on titles, for the simply reason that a talented handler can elevate an otherwise mediocre dog to champion status. But I do believe that a working dog ought to have working ability and before being bred should prove that working ability. To my mind preferably by working, failing that by doing something that proves ability. Obedience is wonderful but should not be used to judge a dogs breed worthiness as a working dog.
So we now have yet another sub section of the breed that has no work ability.


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## Curing

WIBackpacker said:


> Well see... you're underscoring my point.
> 
> I don't personally look at the GSD breed through one venue-exclusive lens.
> 
> In fact, I'm an oddball that prefers herding.
> 
> As I said above, if I saw a panda colored GSD that works livestock well or performs good quality breed appropriate work better than other GSDs, it would absolutely catch my eye.
> 
> Otherwise? Nope. I would see no reason to set an individual panda dog above a level with performance/work tested GSD's of other colors.


Oh I misread what you said, but yes I understand and agree. 

At this point with no proven dogs, they are indeed just off standard dogs and I personally would love to see someone get into herding or other breed appropriate work. Maybe just maybe it'll happen and if it does I'll be sure to post on here

I myself would love to get into herding, though I'd probably lose my dog among the sheep and I'm not sure if theres anywhere near me that has that available but I feel like it really does exemplify the true nature of the breed.


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## Curing

Sabis mom said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it all Pandas trace back to a single dog. One who in spite of having fair hips and elbows, and only ever earning a CD title was bred repeatedly to provide a foundation for the panda shepherds. And the breeder continues to trade on this one, assuredly pleasant and sweet looking, unremarkable bitch.
> I am not one to focus on titles, for the simply reason that a talented handler can elevate an otherwise mediocre dog to champion status. But I do believe that a working dog ought to have working ability and before being bred should prove that working ability. To my mind preferably by working, failing that by doing something that proves ability. Obedience is wonderful but should not be used to judge a dogs breed worthiness as a working dog.
> So we now have yet another sub section of the breed that has no work ability.


You are correct and I 100% agree with you, the dog was definitely bred simply due to her color and personally I would have been the type of be out there and proving that just because she was different didn't mean she couldn't work. she actually did come from working lines and she was bred to other dogs that had proven parents but were not proven themselves so a lot of the early progeny did have enough drive to become nice titled dogs but were never used to their full potential and thus the lines continued to become diluted into basic pet lines, though I would consider them higher drive then other pet lines, atleast enough for someone interested in sport or for a breeder to breed more drive back into them. 

I do know someone who has a progeny from her who said that dog is high drive and what she prefers (I believe she does PPD), sadly this person isn't into titling. 
**Edited to say, this specific person actually acquired the dog because she liked his drive and temperament 

It is possible (I can't say for sure though) that she was titled conformation wise in another organization as I know the breeder does title some of her other dogs now in a certain club. But as far as I'm aware, there were no working titles.


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## cloudpump

Curing said:


> You are correct and I 100% agree with you, the dog was definitely bred simply due to her color and personally I would have been the type of be out there and proving that just because she was different didn't mean she couldn't work. she actually did come from working lines and she was bred to other dogs that had proven parents but were not proven themselves so a lot of the early progeny did have enough drive to become nice titled dogs but were never used to their full potential and thus the lines continued to become diluted into basic pet lines, though I would consider them higher drive then other pet lines, atleast enough for someone interested in sport or for a breeder to breed more drive back into them.
> 
> I do know someone who has a progeny from her who said that dog is high drive and what she prefers (I believe she does PPD), sadly this person isn't into titling.
> **Edited to say, this specific person actually acquired the dog because she liked his drive and temperament
> 
> It is possible (I can't say for sure though) that she was titled conformation wise in another organization as I know the breeder does title some of her other dogs now in a certain club. But as far as I'm aware, there were no working titles.


Anyone that breeds a panda colored dog should not be breeding. Good breeders do not breed faults. A panda will not have conformation titles in any reputable kennel club. 
It is what it is. I'd steer clear of anyone producing pandas, blues, or livers. While colors might not define the dog, colors indicate the effort out into a breeding program.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Pytheis said:


> For the people saying that color is just color...
> 
> Have you researched what happens when two blue merle Australian shepherds are bred together? Deaf, blind, dead pups. Color is not just a color all the time. A dog with a mutation like panda could have hidden health issues or genes that could be passed on to CAUSE health issues. Color mutations like that are usually not wise to breed. It is still a mutation, and no, color is not always just color. It has hidden consequences.


Well I think there is more to this statement than meets the eye. If you breed a white GSD to a white GSD you don't get blind, deaf or dead pups. Does that happen when you breed a liver to a liver or a blue to a blue or any other "off" GSD color?

Livers, blues etc are rare enough that in order to breed one to the same you'd have had to go to trouble to breed only for color in which case you aren't breeding to better the breed you are only breeding to create that color which nobody should be doing.

I don't know anything about the genetics that causes the panda shepherd. But I do know there were all sorts of erroneous assumptions about the white dogs back in the day because white is associated with problems in other breeds, but not in the GSD.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Curing said:


> Colour doesn't affect the workibily of the breed at all. Before the standard was set there were many different colours. If blues had been the standard colour then black and tans would be the ones being considered as faults. If you think of it in that way then you realize how much colour is based on preference and not actual functionality.
> 
> Colour IS just colour, its someones preference turned into standard that has no barings on the quality of the dog. The only reason theres so much stigma against these offstandard colours is because people put them on this pedestal and treat them differently then they do dogs of a standard colour.
> 
> This dog is liver so it must be defective.
> This dog has white spotting so its obviously poorly bred.
> 
> While that may be the case in some dogs and some lines, colour isn't the culprit of a poorly bred dog, poor breeders are
> 
> I've seen livers with extremely rich colouring. So rich you wouldve thought they were black. I've also seen pandas come in rich black and red. And whites throw rich tans. Long ago it was assumed whites diluted the colour of the breed. That was debunked and we now know better.
> 
> Panda isn't even a DQ OR a fault if we're going into logistics. Go a read the AKC standard yourself and you'll see that no where does it fault a dog for having large amounts of white (SV is actually different)
> 
> So that begs the question "why aren't they shown?"
> Because the misinformation going around that they are a DQ or a fault. People arent aware that they can be shown. And while a Panda wouldn't necessarily place due to preference of the judge they also wouldn't automatically be faulted like livers or blues nor would the automatically be DQ'd like whites. It would be strictly up the the individual judge.
> 
> This whole idea that certain colours are "bad" or "subpar" just because of their colour is interesting to me when apparently its okay to have 110 standard colours and long coated variation, both at which do affect the dogs original purpose.



"While that may be the case in some dogs and some lines, colour isn't the culprit of a poorly bred dog, poor breeders are"

Well, I have to somewhat disagree with this...color and poorly bred dogs do go hand in hand, because all the most reputable breeders will conform to the breed standards which will not allow for those colors.

I also have to say if someone isn't showing their dog because of "misinformation about something being a fault or a DQ"...well...read the rulebook. Write to the registry. It isn't rocket science to find out what the rules are and what can be shown where and as what, and if you can't figure that out maybe you shouldn't breed dogs? 

I wish this breed would have only focused on workability, temperament, things that really matter. Kicking the whites out was petty and pointless, I don't know as much about what causes livers and blues or pandas so I won't say more about that. But every argument I have heard for kicking out the whites was not based on anything legit. They can be seen at night? Well, the cops always call that they are sending the dog anyway so what's the issue with element of surprise? You can't see them at night when there is snow on the ground and you sure can see a black one, so....half the year it goes one way and half the year the other....


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## Sabis mom

Curing said:


> You are correct and I 100% agree with you, the dog was definitely bred simply due to her color and personally I would have been the type of be out there and proving that just because she was different didn't mean she couldn't work. she actually did come from working lines and she was bred to other dogs that had proven parents but were not proven themselves so a lot of the early progeny did have enough drive to become nice titled dogs but were never used to their full potential and thus the lines continued to become diluted into basic pet lines, though I would consider them higher drive then other pet lines, atleast enough for someone interested in sport or for a breeder to breed more drive back into them.
> 
> I do know someone who has a progeny from her who said that dog is high drive and what she prefers (I believe she does PPD), sadly this person isn't into titling.
> **Edited to say, this specific person actually acquired the dog because she liked his drive and temperament
> 
> It is possible (I can't say for sure though) that she was titled conformation wise in another organization as I know the breeder does title some of her other dogs now in a certain club. But as far as I'm aware, there were no working titles.


Just to be clear, I wouldn't buy a working dog from a line with only conformation titles either. 
Conformation should only be considered as it impacts work ability.
As for people not showing odd colored dogs because they think they with be disqualified, the judges know the rules and you always have a right to contest a decision.
Years ago I was friends with one of the top Dane breeders in Canada. Danes were traditionally shown with cropped ears. They started showing their dogs with natural ears, and lost. For a while. Now you often see Danes with natural ears. A cropped ear does not impact anything nor does color. A breeder should know this. And most breeders I know are pretty convinced that their dogs are awesome, so to my mind they should prove it. 
If an off color pup pops up in a litter I have no issue with that. My male was oversized, no one else in the litter or the pedigree was.
I do have an issue with someone breeding for any specific trait while ignoring others, which is exactly what they did with the pandas.
AKC and CKC have all kinds of performance titles that are open to any registered dog, so the idea that they couldn't do anything is bunk.


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## LuvShepherds

cloudpump said:


> Anyone that breeds a panda colored dog should not be breeding. Good breeders do not breed faults. A panda will not have conformation titles in any reputable kennel club.
> It is what it is. I'd steer clear of anyone producing pandas, blues, or livers. While colors might not define the dog, colors indicate the effort out into a breeding program.


I have been looking at breeders, and I noticed again that the ones who intentionally breed for fault coloring don’t have the same standards everyone here tells people to look for. It bothers me that people think it’s alright to intentionally introduce Panda into the gene pool. I didn’t know until I read here that breeding two Pandas causes fetuses to be absorbed so I looked it up. I found this: “In the homozygous state, the Panda mutation is considered an early embryonic lethal”. That does not sound like a healthy or responsible breeding practice. 

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/GermanShepherdPanda.php


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## Curing

LuvShepherds said:


> I have been looking at breeders, and I noticed again that the ones who intentionally breed for fault coloring don’t have the same standards everyone here tells people to look for. It bothers me that people think it’s alright to intentionally introduce Panda into the gene pool. I didn’t know until I read here that breeding two Pandas causes fetuses to be absorbed so I looked it up. I found this: “In the homozygous state, the Panda mutation is considered an early embryonic lethal”. That does not sound like a healthy or responsible breeding practice.
> 
> https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/GermanShepherdPanda.php


A majority of the people who breed panda's are aware of the risks of breeding 2 dogs with the same mutation. I personally haven't seen any one breeder (even the really bad ones) breed 2 together. I mean why need to when its a dominant mutation that only needs 1 parent for it to be bred.


----------



## Tennessee

Slowly backs away from thread about purchasing a dog breed created for serious work (herding, protection, police & military) based on a pretty (non-standard) coat pattern............


----------



## Sunsilver

The pandas have been discussed ad nauseum on the PDB. Apparently the panda mutation isn't all that rare. A number of different posters said they knew of other breeders who had produced a panda pup. There was even a breeder from Australia who provided pictures of such a pup. He/she did what any reputable breeder would do: they sold it to a pet home, with the stipulation that the dog be neutered.

Same thing was done when another breeder unexpectedly had blue pups crop up in a working line litter.

It's what responsible breeders do.

Of course, the breeders that breed only for colour were all over these dogs, wanting to buy them for insane amounts of money, and turn them into puppy factories... :frown2:


----------



## Curing

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well I think there is more to this statement than meets the eye. If you breed a white GSD to a white GSD you don't get blind, deaf or dead pups. Does that happen when you breed a liver to a liver or a blue to a blue or any other "off" GSD color?
> 
> Livers, blues etc are rare enough that in order to breed one to the same you'd have had to go to trouble to breed only for color in which case you aren't breeding to better the breed you are only breeding to create that color which nobody should be doing.
> 
> I don't know anything about the genetics that causes the panda shepherd. But I do know there were all sorts of erroneous assumptions about the white dogs back in the day because white is associated with problems in other breeds, but not in the GSD.


I think theres a pretty big misconception on how "rare" Blues and Livers are since in reality I wouldn't consider them "rare" but maybe uncommon. Though for Blue's it is a task to find a breeder that breeds lines that don't produce CDA pups. There are breeders that don't but more commonly breeders that do. 

Also just like whites Blues and Livers are recessive traits (d/d = dilute/blue b/b = brown/liver) which means that it can not only be shown on coat but also carried and pop up in any litter just like whites do and is actually more common then you'd think. 

So while there are breeders that only care about color and not about structure and thus will breed any 2 blues or any 2 livers to get what they want. They're are also fanciers of colors that more deliberately pick their dogs and go with structure, drive, and temperament over color. But then again if you really think about it people who breed standard colors often deliberately pick certain colors to breed as well. 

Go back to the "not competing thing" I only mentioned that a big reason they don't show is because they were misinformed, was because it was just recently a huge discussion in a group I'm in, and most people, aside from maybe 2, had no clue they were allowed to compete. The discussion opened up the eyes to many and from what I'm aware a few said they had plans to try in the future. 

I did ask why they didn't compete in sport or protection sport instead and most answers were along the lines of: "As a hobby breeder, I don't really have the time" "I prefer to work my dogs in other aspects" (i.e. Tactical work) or "We're just now getting into it" while others did state that they did incentive programs for owners to get at least 1 title. 

But again I think things are really changing at this time for a lot of these breeders and we're going to see far more engagement of them within the breed to prove their dogs. We're now seeing breeders adding in better lines to improve their own lines, breeders calling on others to help them title their dogs, Ones looking to really prove their dogs and a whole community is coming together to hold each other accountable and to a higher standard of practices to weed out those who are breeding strictly to profit off color without regards to anything else.


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## GypsyGhost

But see, if you are a “hobby breeder” with dogs that are unproven, what are you really adding to the breed? It doesn’t matter what colors you produce at that point. I wouldn’t call someone that doesn’t prove their breeding dogs a hobby breeder. I know good hobby breeders, ones that breed because they love our breed, they love the work, and they know their dogs. Ones that health test and only breed when they have something worth breeding. Those people prove why their dogs should be bred first. THEN they breed. If you breed first and then think about getting into some sort of work/sport in which your dogs can be proven, you are putting the cart before the horse. And I’m sorry, off colors or standard, I just cannot see those people as good breeders.


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## Curing

Sunsilver said:


> The pandas have been discussed ad nauseum on the PDB. Apparently the panda mutation isn't all that rare. A number of different posters said they knew of other breeders who had produced a panda pup. There was even a breeder from Australia who provided pictures of such a pup. He/she did what any reputable breeder would do: they sold it to a pet home, with the stipulation that the dog be neutered.
> 
> Same thing was done when another breeder unexpectedly had blue pups crop up in a working line litter.
> 
> It's what responsible breeders do.
> 
> Of course, the breeders that breed only for colour were all over these dogs, wanting to buy them for insane amounts of money, and turn them into puppy factories... :frown2:


There are actually a few different genes that are responsible for white spotting. Panda is KIT the other is Pibauld and often mistaken for Panda, those pop up more frequently, there is another gene that popped up recently that is unidentified (but not Panda as it was tested) and another in a foreign country from a supposed reputable breeder that is also un identified but wasn't tested. 

Personally If I was a breeder and found a nice off standard dog, I also would inquire about purchasing it for breeding purposes. Not strictly because of its color but because when you fancy a color (any at all, blue, black, white, etc) You're actively looking for dogs that not only fit that preference of yours, but also come from actual good lines and can improve your own lines, since its really not common that you do find a off standard actually being sold from lines that are nice AND proven so most do jump at the opportunity.


----------



## Steve Strom

Curing said:


> I specifically know quite a few Panda Shepherd breeders
> 
> 
> 
> It neither affects the workibility, temperment or drive of the dog and doesn't make the breeder a bad one.
> 
> Personally I'm not sure how people are more readily accepting of oversized dogs (which does affect workibility) over off-standard colour, but thats just me.


Out of curiosity. Who? Can you show me one? And one more who?


----------



## Curing

GypsyGhost said:


> But see, if you are a “hobby breeder” with dogs that are unproven, what are you really adding to the breed? It doesn’t matter what colors you produce at that point. I wouldn’t call someone that doesn’t prove their breeding dogs a hobby breeder. I know good hobby breeders, ones that breed because they love our breed, they love the work, and they know their dogs. Ones that health test and only breed when they have something worth breeding. Those people prove why their dogs should be bred first. THEN they breed. If you breed first and then think about getting into some sort of work/sport in which your dogs can be proven, you are putting the cart before the horse. And I’m sorry, off colors or standard, I just cannot see those people as good breeders.


I agree with that to an extent, my first thoughts are always "Why WOULDN'T you want to prove your dogs", and to answer simply, because they just don't feel the need to. Sad but true. 

Interestingly enough though, some of these breeders are ones who were actively involved in the breed at one point (like when they were younger) and slowly faded out later in life. I even knew one with a high drive IPO female and other high drive working dogs who completely switched over to producing pet, why? I have nooo clue. 

But I don't think titles make a breeder great or not, and while I personally never would breed a dog without titling to prove them, I have seen some really nice dogs out of breeders who have been breeding for a while, knew what they want, and didn't title, that could've easily been titled but never were because the owners didn't care to. 

I wish I had the video of this dog I was introduced to when first learning about color genetics, he was a liver male without a real significant pedigree (some stuff pretty far back but nothing recent) and the owners were actually trying to LOWER his drive because he was too much for them (They said the breeder even told them the dog would be high drive based on parents, but they assumed they could handle it). The trainers they went to tried to guide them and show them what he was capable of but they weren't interested. According to the owner, the other littermates were also more driven, I often wondered if any of the others attempted any showing. 
But anyway, I guess in that case the breeder just had an Idea of what they liked and what worked. Though I don't know if maybe they were a trainer or had someone evaluate their dogs.


----------



## Curing

Steve Strom said:


> Out of curiosity. Who? Can you show me one? And one more who?


I'm actually trying to put together a list of ones I personally know either health test or both health test and have proven dogs. 

I'm trying to find the website link to a women I know who does Tactical Training with her dogs and another who does sport titles, just not having the best luck so may have to contact them directly to get a link. Will post as soon as I get them


----------



## LuvShepherds

This is my first time wading into a Panda topic, so I did not know it was a controversy. Until I read this thread, I thought no one who is in favor of breeding the best dogs the breed can offer would even consider intentionally breeding for it. I don’t understand the purpose of trying to breed a mutation or of ruining a whole generation of puppies from good lines by introducing a dominant, fault gene. This reminds me of other controversies where fans of different breeds try to make them seem like something other than what they are. In this case, we are being asked to accept Pandas as just as breedworthy as traditional colorings. I read the pro arguments, but I don’t get it. How do we even know it won’t mutate again and introduce health risks?


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## Sunsilver

LuvShepherds, panda x panda is lethal (embryos are re-absorbed). That tells me all I need to know about breeding these dogs. :frown2:


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## Steve Strom

Curing said:


> I'm actually trying to put together a list of ones I personally know either health test or both health test and have proven dogs.
> 
> I'm trying to find the website link to a women I know who does Tactical Training with her dogs and another who does sport titles, just not having the best luck so may have to contact them directly to get a link. Will post as soon as I get them


Personally know? I'm not trying to pick on you Curing, but people say alot of things online that they can make sound believable and reasonable. In real life, the BS shows. There's no panda shepherds or shepards that have proven anything. If there were, people would know and you wouldn't have to hunt for anything.


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## cloudpump

Curing said:


> A majority of the people who breed panda's are aware of the risks of breeding 2 dogs with the same mutation. I personally haven't seen any one breeder (even the really bad ones) breed 2 together. I mean why need to when its a dominant mutation that only needs 1 parent for it to be bred.


How many people are actually breeding pandas? I've seen one lady.


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## Curing

LuvShepherds said:


> This is my first time wading into a Panda topic, so I did not know it was a controversy. Until I read this thread, I thought no one who is in favor of breeding the best dogs the breed can offer would even consider intentionally breeding for it. I don’t understand the purpose of trying to breed a mutation or of ruining a whole generation of puppies from good lines by introducing a dominant, fault gene. This reminds me of other controversies where fans of different breeds try to make them seem like something other than what they are. In this case, we are being asked to accept Pandas as just as breedworthy as traditional colorings. I read the pro arguments, but I don’t get it. How do we even know it won’t mutate again and introduce health risks?


It was a mutation that happened in the sperm, pretty much a 1 in a million phenotypical mutation (one that changes the look of the dog) and the probability of it mutating again is low, we have a higher probability of other white spotting mutations to take place then we do of this one ever mutating again. 

That being said, the whole though process of a color "ruining" a whole generation is interesting to me. We're talking about taking a dog with white markings and breeding it to a dog with no white markings and then getting a litter of puppies where half have white and half don't. That means literally half of the litter would be judged based on color while the other half would be accepted. 

The puppies could have identical drives, identical temperaments, identical structures (lets pretend they're all "to standard") and yet the dogs with white markings would be considered "poorly bred" just by first glance. 

Now its common knowledge that for the most part breeders who breed off standard colors aren't considered reputable or respectable and it would be ignorant to believe that colored dogs were in anyway superior to standards, cause lets be real nice colored dogs are not common. Thats what happens when lines become diluted. 

But that doesn't mean that colors such as liver, blue, Isabella, panda, piebald and more can't be bred with integrity, responsibility and adhere to the original values of the breed. It doesn't mean that just because a breeder may fancy colors other then those that are traditional, that they have no regards for the breed. It simply means that they appreciate the breed not for the color, but the core traits of it. 

What IF the first Panda Shepherd would've been an exquisite bitch? What if she would have been titled all the way to ScH3 and her progeny all titled as well? 

The point I'm trying to make here is that color has no bearings on the integrity of the dog or the breeder, I'm not here to try and convince anyone that a Panda colored dog is in anyway superior or that they should be accepting of any off standard color, not here to say that all breeders of pandas are some how "reputable" or "responsible". 

All I'm trying to make clear is that breeding a certain color doesn't make someone a poor to non reputable breeder. A poor breeder is just that, with or without the colors. Theres just been stigma around it all for far to long. 

As someone who studies color genetics, its just all a mystery to me why one color would be accepted while the other is not other then by human preference.


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## Sabis mom

cloudpump said:


> How many people are actually breeding pandas? I've seen one lady.


News on the Panda Shepherd | Furrari Kennels
https://pandagsd.weebly.com
http://gsdpandakennels.wixsite.com/phenomshepherds/page2
https://www.facebook.com/k9pines

These 4 come up right away.


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## cloudpump

Curing said:


> It was a mutation that happened in the sperm, pretty much a 1 in a million phenotypical mutation (one that changes the look of the dog) and the probability of it mutating again is low, we have a higher probability of other white spotting mutations to take place then we do of this one ever mutating again.
> 
> That being said, the whole though process of a color "ruining" a whole generation is interesting to me. We're talking about taking a dog with white markings and breeding it to a dog with no white markings and then getting a litter of puppies where half have white and half don't. That means literally half of the litter would be judged based on color while the other half would be accepted.
> 
> The puppies could have identical drives, identical temperaments, identical structures (lets pretend they're all "to standard") and yet the dogs with white markings would be considered "poorly bred" just by first glance.
> 
> Now its common knowledge that for the most part breeders who breed off standard colors aren't considered reputable or respectable and it would be ignorant to believe that colored dogs were in anyway superior to standards, cause lets be real nice colored dogs are not common. Thats what happens when lines become diluted.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that colors such as liver, blue, Isabella, panda, piebald and more can't be bred with integrity, responsibility and adhere to the original values of the breed. It doesn't mean that just because a breeder may fancy colors other then those that are traditional, that they have no regards for the breed. It simply means that they appreciate the breed not for the color, but the core traits of it.
> 
> What IF the first Panda Shepherd would've been an exquisite bitch? What if she would have been titled all the way to ScH3 and her progeny all titled as well?
> 
> The point I'm trying to make here is that color has no bearings on the integrity of the dog or the breeder, I'm not here to try and convince anyone that a Panda colored dog is in anyway superior or that they should be accepting of any off standard color, not here to say that all breeders of pandas are some how "reputable" or "responsible".
> 
> All I'm trying to make clear is that breeding a certain color doesn't make someone a poor to non reputable breeder. A poor breeder is just that, with or without the colors. Theres just been stigma around it all for far to long.
> 
> As someone who studies color genetics, its just all a mystery to me why one color would be accepted while the other is not other then by human preference.


Um, a person that breeds certain colors is a non reputable breeder. They are not breeding to standard. The standard lists off colors as faults, and no reputable breeder or even a hobby breeder should be breeding to not the standard. A breeder should breed to better the breed.


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## cloudpump

Sabis mom said:


> News on the Panda Shepherd | Furrari Kennels
> https://pandagsd.weebly.com
> http://gsdpandakennels.wixsite.com/phenomshepherds/page2
> https://www.facebook.com/k9pines
> 
> These 4 come up right away.


They all look sketchy to me.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

cloudpump said:


> How many people are actually breeding pandas? I've seen one lady.


Kennel link removed by ADMIN. 

She had great online reviews, website looked good, she fed raw, said she did health checks etc.... husband wanted a white shepherd (I've always had sables and wanted a sable again but he either wanted a border collie or a WHITE shepherd so we compromised.) this place was a complete puppy mill. The lady was rude, crazy, puppies and dogs crammed in outdoor pens in mud and filth... the puppies were covered in parasites and had diarrhea. She was so proud of her Pandas. Her stud dog had floppy ears and she found him in California under a car. No pedigree, no titles nothing. We quickly got out of there and got our puppy elsewhere... our current white shepherd came from mostly show lines but has surprised us with a great temperament, tons of confidence, and trainers have commented on they think he would make an amazing working dog. Does go to show you each dog varies individually you never know what you would get, but it's difficult enough finding a reputable breeder of a common color let alone these exotics... I don't like pandas personally because when most people see them they just assume they're a mix. Just adopt a shepherd mix with unique coloring?


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## Sunsilver

When I googled panda shepherd, the breeders that came up were mostly also breeding other off-colours. So, yeah, definitely NOT reputable breeders!


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## LuvShepherds

@Curing You don’t know that there aren’t any Pandas that are otherwise high quality, because if they were owned by reputable breeders, they were not bred. If they had been, it would be more common and there would be examples, as posted above. 

I don’t see anything wrong with wanting one or liking them, but buying a German Shepherd is not the same thing as decorating a house. When evaluating dogs and lineage, we don’t look for “nice colors” we look at overall packages, and whether we like it or not, that includes color. That is why I set out to get a red and black dog and ended up with a solid black short haired puppy. I wanted nice colors, but I wanted a certain type more and I found that in a working line dog. In the end, color was less important. I also discovered that black is the most unusual color to anyone who doesn’t read this forum or participate in working line groups or clubs. After I got him, I realized I love solid black coats. His is shiny and gorgeous. I recently took mine to the pet store to buy food and was surrounded by young girls who thought he was the most beautiful dog they have ever seen. There aren’t a lot of WL GSDs here. I have seen maybe 2 solid Black that were not ASLs. There are a lot of sables, but the average non GSD owner doesn’t even realize they are the same line as mine.


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## Sabis mom

cloudpump said:


> They all look sketchy to me.


What I find truly reprehensible is the fact that when Frankie was born the assumption was that she was "the travelling salesman's". 
Genetic testing proved otherwise, AFTER she had been bred and produced pups sold and registered as GSD's.

As I stated earlier, she was a pretty bitch with a sweet expression. So is Shadow, doesn't mean I should rush out and breed her.


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## LuvShepherds

From K9 pines that advertises blue, liver, fawn, brindle and Isabella coloring. Blue eyes are a definite fault and could not be shown.

Panda's can have one blue eye, partial China eyes, 2 blue eyes or traditional colored eyes that accompany the actual coat color of the GSD.


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## Nigel

Curing said:


> It was a mutation that happened in the sperm, pretty much a 1 in a million phenotypical mutation (one that changes the look of the dog) and the probability of it mutating again is low, we have a higher probability of other white spotting mutations to take place then we do of this one ever mutating again.
> 
> That being said, the whole though process of a color "ruining" a whole generation is interesting to me. We're talking about taking a dog with white markings and breeding it to a dog with no white markings and then getting a litter of puppies where half have white and half don't. That means literally half of the litter would be judged based on color while the other half would be accepted.
> 
> The puppies could have identical drives, identical temperaments, identical structures (lets pretend they're all "to standard") and yet the dogs with white markings would be considered "poorly bred" just by first glance.
> 
> Now its common knowledge that for the most part breeders who breed off standard colors aren't considered reputable or respectable and it would be ignorant to believe that colored dogs were in anyway superior to standards, cause lets be real nice colored dogs are not common. Thats what happens when lines become diluted.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that colors such as liver, blue, Isabella, panda, piebald and more can't be bred with integrity, responsibility and adhere to the original values of the breed. It doesn't mean that just because a breeder may fancy colors other then those that are traditional, that they have no regards for the breed. It simply means that they appreciate the breed not for the color, but the core traits of it.
> 
> What IF the first Panda Shepherd would've been an exquisite bitch? What if she would have been titled all the way to ScH3 and her progeny all titled as well?
> 
> The point I'm trying to make here is that color has no bearings on the integrity of the dog or the breeder, I'm not here to try and convince anyone that a Panda colored dog is in anyway superior or that they should be accepting of any off standard color, not here to say that all breeders of pandas are some how "reputable" or "responsible".
> 
> All I'm trying to make clear is that breeding a certain color doesn't make someone a poor to non reputable breeder. A poor breeder is just that, with or without the colors. Theres just been stigma around it all for far to long.
> 
> As someone who studies color genetics, its just all a mystery to me why one color would be accepted while the other is not other then by human preference.


 A dog which is titled to ipo3 and in several other venues, but will likely produce pups with down ears would be ok to breed too? Faults are just that faults and should be avoided in breeding


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunsilver said:


> The pandas have been discussed ad nauseum on the PDB. Apparently the panda mutation isn't all that rare. A number of different posters said they knew of other breeders who had produced a panda pup. There was even a breeder from Australia who provided pictures of such a pup. He/she did what any reputable breeder would do: they sold it to a pet home, with the stipulation that the dog be neutered.


All those breeders who supposedly produced this coloration…where were they, where are they now? Why weren’t they bringing this to the attention of the GSD world in general or seeking more information from genetic specialists like Phenom did? If there really were more panda’s produced before Frankie there was nothing responsible about sending the dogs off to pet homes and pretending they didn’t exist,* in fact it reeks of keeping quiet about possible problems in a bloodline.* If those sires and dams were used again without genetic studies being done I see nothing remotely responsible about the breeders who produced the other panda’s and kept that information to themselves.

Whether or not the Panda’s should be reproduced is a whole different subject but this needs to be said….The answer when something unusual or unknown shows up in the breed is not to ignore it and pretend it doesn’t exist. If it hadn’t been for the actions of Phenom Shepherds, to seek answers, we wouldn’t know about the mutation, there wouldn’t be a UC Davis Panda Genetic Project and we wouldn’t know that breeding panda to panda creates embryos that are re-absorbed. We don’t advance the study of genetics by hiding problems in bloodlines…one would think after 100 years people in this breed would have figured that out.


----------



## Sunsilver

Whiteshepherds, you do have a point. However, I wonder how many of the breeders just assumed there'd been a fence-jumper, and quietly got rid of the pup. Aside from the Australian pup, there wasn't much information available about other pandas, it was more just 'oh, I know someone back 20 years ago that had this happen...'

The prevailing attitude was 'shoot, shovel and shut up', and you are right, that happens all too frequently with genetic problems/anomalies in purebred dogs. No one wants to confess that THEIR dogs produced something that didn't conform to the standard.

But nothing will convince me these dogs should have been bred, except possibly as a test litter to try to figure out what had happened.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Oh, the irony, from Phenom Shepherds website: 

"There are people that for some unexplained reason feel the need to try to dupe the public by offering puppies that are not of the standard set for the Panda Shepherd. This only results in inferior and homeless animals."

http://gsdpandakennels.wixsite.com/phenomshepherds/panda-shepherds

So are Panda Shepherd breeders breeding to the GSD standard or to that of the Panda Shepherd, whatever that may be?


----------



## Curing

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Oh, the irony, from Phenom Shepherds website:
> 
> "There are people that for some unexplained reason feel the need to try to dupe the public by offering puppies that are not of the standard set for the Panda Shepherd. This only results in inferior and homeless animals."
> 
> http://gsdpandakennels.wixsite.com/phenomshepherds/panda-shepherds
> 
> So are Panda Shepherd breeders breeding to the GSD standard or to that of the Panda Shepherd, whatever that may be?


I honestly don't agree with her at all. I whole heartedly believe that if you're choosing to breed an off standard color (as I said, I fee color is a bit different then lets say size or coat type) then you need to be holding to the standard in every other way possible.


----------



## Curing

Okay so I'm having to run from the comfort of my couch and laptop currently but have a list of Breeders who I know have either have some titles on their Pandas (Sport titles only, hope thats okay), Proven their dogs in other ways (Tactical training and I found 1 herding dog), or at the very least health tested (for those people who are looking but don't know where to start). Will post them when I return! 

Would be happy to add general off standard breeders who health test and title to the list as well if anyone is interest.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Curing said:


> I think theres a pretty big misconception on how "rare" Blues and Livers are since in reality I wouldn't consider them "rare" but maybe uncommon. Though for Blue's it is a task to find a breeder that breeds lines that don't produce CDA pups. There are breeders that don't but more commonly breeders that do.
> 
> Also just like whites Blues and Livers are recessive traits (d/d = dilute/blue b/b = brown/liver) which means that it can not only be shown on coat but also carried and pop up in any litter just like whites do and is actually more common then you'd think.
> 
> So while there are breeders that only care about color and not about structure and thus will breed any 2 blues or any 2 livers to get what they want. They're are also fanciers of colors that more deliberately pick their dogs and go with structure, drive, and temperament over color. But then again if you really think about it people who breed standard colors often deliberately pick certain colors to breed as well.
> 
> Go back to the "not competing thing" I only mentioned that a big reason they don't show is because they were misinformed, was because it was just recently a huge discussion in a group I'm in, and most people, aside from maybe 2, had no clue they were allowed to compete. The discussion opened up the eyes to many and from what I'm aware a few said they had plans to try in the future.
> 
> I did ask why they didn't compete in sport or protection sport instead and most answers were along the lines of: "As a hobby breeder, I don't really have the time" "I prefer to work my dogs in other aspects" (i.e. Tactical work) or "We're just now getting into it" while others did state that they did incentive programs for owners to get at least 1 title.
> 
> But again I think things are really changing at this time for a lot of these breeders and we're going to see far more engagement of them within the breed to prove their dogs. We're now seeing breeders adding in better lines to improve their own lines, breeders calling on others to help them title their dogs, Ones looking to really prove their dogs and a whole community is coming together to hold each other accountable and to a higher standard of practices to weed out those who are breeding strictly to profit off color without regards to anything else.


What is "tactical work"? I'm not a breeder and I make time to title my dogs. So I don't buy it. I know so much about my dogs' strengths and weaknesses that I would not know if we never left home.

Just now getting into it? I would think titling pets would be the first thing before considering becoming a breeder. See your own dogs work at something. See others. See how they compare

I know a breeder of another breed who was competing at obedience recently. Her dog would not retrieve the dumb bell because it was too near a male judge and the dog would not approach him. This dog is one she uses a lot. I thought to myself, I don't think a dog who can't go near the judge to get a dumb bell should be bred at all. Maybe there is something I don't know about the situation but this is a dog who has travelled and competed a lot, and if he cant get a dumb bell because he thinks a neutral judge is too scary he shouldn't be siring anything.

and I still am not buying the misinformed stuff why people don't show. If you don't have enough of an interest in your breed to read the rule book, breed standard, and what's allowed to do what...then you shouldn't be breeding a dog.

I've read the AKC rules and regs for obedience and tracking a half dozen times, the WCRL rulebook way more times than that, the breed standard for AKC German Shepherd, UKC German Shepherd, AWSA White Shepherd, UKC White Shepherd, I don't know but at least a few times, just for my own curiosity and I don't breed dogs.


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## GypsyGhost

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What is "tactical work"? I'm not a breeder and I make time to title my dogs. So I don't buy it. I know so much about my dogs' strengths and weaknesses that I would not know if we never left home.
> 
> Just now getting into it? I would think titling pets would be the first thing before considering becoming a breeder. See your own dogs work at something. See others. See how they compare
> 
> I know a breeder of another breed who was competing at obedience recently. Her dog would not retrieve the dumb bell because it was too near a male judge and the dog would not approach him. This dog is one she uses a lot. I thought to myself, I don't think a dog who can't go near the judge to get a dumb bell should be bred at all. Maybe there is something I don't know about the situation but this is a dog who has travelled and competed a lot, and if he cant get a dumb bell because he thinks a neutral judge is too scary he shouldn't be siring anything.
> 
> and I still am not buying the misinformed stuff why people don't show. If you don't have enough of an interest in your breed to read the rule book, breed standard, and what's allowed to do what...then you shouldn't be breeding a dog.
> 
> I've read the AKC rules and regs for obedience and tracking a half dozen times, the WCRL rulebook way more times than that, the breed standard for AKC German Shepherd, UKC German Shepherd, AWSA White Shepherd, UKC White Shepherd, I don't know but at least a few times, just for my own curiosity and I don't breed dogs.


^^^this.


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## Thecowboysgirl

@Curing you said "But that doesn't mean that colors such as liver, blue, Isabella, panda, piebald and more can't be bred with integrity, responsibility and adhere to the original values of the breed. It doesn't mean that just because a breeder may fancy colors other then those that are traditional, that they have no regards for the breed. It simply means that they appreciate the breed not for the color, but the core traits of it. 

What IF the first Panda Shepherd would've been an exquisite bitch? What if she would have been titled all the way to ScH3 and her progeny all titled as well? 

The point I'm trying to make here is that color has no bearings on the integrity of the dog or the breeder, I'm not here to try and convince anyone that a Panda colored dog is in anyway superior or that they should be accepting of any off standard color, not here to say that all breeders of pandas are some how "reputable" or "responsible". 

I don't even know what Isabella is...have to go google that. But saying that livers blues pandas can be bred with integrity hmm...I am not sure. Not when you START with color.

Here's my thing. Someone said if a reputable breeder produced a liver it would do the responsible thing and place it in a pet home and make sure it was sterilized. THIS is what I do not agree with. If a respsonsible breeder produced an off color it ought to be evaluated just like any other dog. say it is a liver. If it seems above average, work it, title it and see. Maybe it is exceptional. If it is an exceptional dog it ought to be bred. If the mate of the dog is chosen with the same care and chosen to be the best compliment to the original, the chance that it is also a liver is slim to none. 

If that same dog is evaluated and it is average or below average sure, no reason to breed it.

My problem is considering color first. I think color should be considered last. UNLESS that color is legitimately associated with some health condition. To my knowledge livers and blues and whites have no association with anything.

I don't think a dog should be selected as breeding stock based on color first OR eliminated as breeding stock based on color first. If color is placed last where it belongs then it shouldn't be an issue. If I were on some mythical dog buying expedition trying to get breeding stock and I had a few dogs to choose from and they appeared equal in every other way then I might lean toward a color preference. But if the color preference comes first then I am already blinded to other things that matter so much more.

The next issue is how big is the gene pool. Breeding livers with integrity would require that you have enough livers that your gene pool is sufficiently big, which I don't think it is, and if you cross to other colors to widen the gene pool you're going to already want to choose to keep back the livers in your breeding program which means you chose color before other factors, which in my opinion is wrong and could only damage the breed and lead to subpar dogs


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## Sabis mom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What is "tactical work"?
> 
> and I still am not buying the misinformed stuff why people don't show. If you don't have enough of an interest in your breed to read the rule book, breed standard, and what's allowed to do what...then you shouldn't be breeding a dog.
> 
> I've read the AKC rules and regs for obedience and tracking a half dozen times, the WCRL rulebook way more times than that, the breed standard for AKC German Shepherd, UKC German Shepherd, AWSA White Shepherd, UKC White Shepherd, I don't know but at least a few times, just for my own curiosity and I don't breed dogs.


Totally agree! I work mostly with rescues and byb dogs and I have pretty well memorized the AKC, CKC and FCI standards for GSD's and any number of other breeds I like. I have ZERO interest in any form of breeding but as the crazy dog lady it is my job to know these things, mostly so I can annoy the neighbors with it. I cannot see how a breeder should be less informed. 
If an off color dog pops up and the breeder chooses to title it to prove a point, good on them. Still does not mean it should reproduce.

And I would like a description of tactical work please.


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## DaBai

We live in a supply + demand market, I don't think there is anything wrong breeding for a specific color and for profit as long as the breeding stocks are evaluated properly for health and temperament to be fit for breeding. OP maybe you want to try puppyfind.com or just google online and use facebook groups to find panda breeders? Just please make sure the parents have elbow and hip testing done and meet the parents in person and talk to previous puppy buyers to make sure the temperament of the pup is what you want to live with for the next 10 years or so. If you can't meet the parents in person, then I think it is safest to only buy from parents with titles. Good luck! And please post pics of your pando pup if you end up getting one


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## Sunsilver

Cowboysgirl, the reason a reputable breeder would neuter a liver or blue is to keep it from becoming a puppy factory for liver and blue pups! There are many, many unscrupulous breeders out there who want these dogs in order to breed them JUST for their colour. 

Also, ethical breeders breed to the breed standard, and these colours are NOT recognized, so why should these dogs be left intact? They can earn working titles just as well if neutered.

BTW, IIRC, Isabella is a colour that happens if the dog is homozygous for both the blue and liver genes.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Sunsilver said:


> Cowboysgirl, the reason a reputable breeder would neuter a liver or blue is to keep it from becoming a puppy factory for liver and blue pups! There are many, many unscrupulous breeders out there who want these dogs in order to breed them JUST for their colour.
> 
> Also, ethical breeders breed to the breed standard, and these colours are NOT recognized, so why should these dogs be left intact? They can earn working titles just as well if neutered.
> 
> BTW, IIRC, Isabella is a colour that happens if the dog is homozygous for both the blue and liver genes.


Ok, I didn't think of them being fodder for unethical color breeders.

I know the colors aren't recognized, and I know responsible breeders won't consider them as breeding stock. I am really just stating my pipe dream of what could have happened instead of what did. know what I mean? in my dream world whites wouldn't have been kicked out either. Doesn't make it so


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## lhczth

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Here's my thing. Someone said if a reputable breeder produced a liver it would do the responsible thing and place it in a pet home and make sure it was sterilized. THIS is what I do not agree with. If a respsonsible breeder produced an off color it ought to be evaluated just like any other dog. say it is a liver. If it seems above average, work it, title it and see. Maybe it is exceptional. If it is an exceptional dog it ought to be bred. If the mate of the dog is chosen with the same care and chosen to be the best compliment to the original, the chance that it is also a liver is slim to none.


Liver and blue are disqualifying faults because the pigment is not black. Has nothing to do with the actually color, but because the nose should be black. It may have little to do with working ability and a good dog with liver or blue coloring could still make a good working dog. They just should not be bred. If we start ignoring the standard then where do we stop? Dog is missing a bunch of teeth, but, heck, they can still work so breed them? A dog has floppy ears, but, heck, they don't need prick ears to work? At what point are we no longer breeding GSD? Of course I also have an issue with breeding dogs that are pretty, but can't work and dogs that are mushy goldens with prick ears as I do with dogs that can work yet either don't resemble a GSD or have disqualifying faults.


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## Thecowboysgirl

lhczth said:


> Liver and blue are disqualifying faults because the pigment is not black. Has nothing to do with the actually color, but because the nose should be black. It may have little to do with working ability and a good dog with liver or blue coloring could still make a good working dog. They just should not be bred. If we start ignoring the standard then where do we stop? Dog is missing a bunch of teeth, but, heck, they can still work so breed them? A dog has floppy ears, but, heck, they don't need prick ears to work? At what point are we no longer breeding GSD? Of course I also have an issue with breeding dogs that are pretty, but can't work and dogs that are mushy goldens with prick ears as I do with dogs that can work yet either don't resemble a GSD or have disqualifying faults.


Well, missing teeth, that's a physical THING. Maybe the dog can't do bitework properly? 

I guess I get hung up on this color thing because the thing with the whites was misinformed and arbitrary as much as I can tell. If you couldn't use a white dog for herding then why were there foundation white dogs of the breed? 

They changed the standard before, when they kicked the whites out case in point. Were livers and blues always out or did they just get the axe at some point?

Making rules and disqualifying dogs based on stuff that seems arbitrary or empty aesthetics bugs me. that's the bottom line. It seems to go against so much else that the GSD is supposed to be. I see what you are saying about if we stop following the standard when do we stop. It's a valid point.

I don't know the answer and at the end of the day my opinion doesn't matter anyway, I'm just saying what I think. It seems petty to say I won't even consider this dog because of the color of its hair. But because it's been done so long that ship has sailed anyway, I imagine.


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## Steve Strom

Don't spend too much time on it Curing. There is no one in the world breeding panda shepherds that are proven in anything except color. Tactical training, odds are some goofs in the woods with their guns pretending on Youtube. I don't care what their website says.


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## Curing

Sorry everyone, I work in a job that is very time consuming and can take me at random times. Below I will list all of the kennels I either personally know the owners of (I will put a * next to those) or personally know work/show and health test their dogs (Have seen pictures, videos, or the titles). I will put the Pandas up first just because thats what this thread is about and then put the other kennels below. Will add a description to each. 

Please be aware I am only adding kennels that I either personally know or that I know enough about to be confident enough to post. While there are others that I am aware of that do work, because I am either unsure if they health test or just unsure of their kennel name, they will not be added. 
Kennels that I know of that have dogs that produce progeny that are tested and have good results, but don't have public info for health tests on their own stock and don't title will also not be added. 




Panda breeders: 

* https://www.malakkennels.com/home

Please forgive the outdated site, the owner said they were working on an updated on soon. 
Malak kennels is a German Shepherd breeder in SC, they do mostly tactical work with their dogs and have proven narc and bomb detection dogs, they have done work in the country and oversee's. They also have a proven panda SD. Currently Malak kennels has 2 Panda's in training for Tactical work, these dogs are still young, so more to come. 
Current Panda male is trained in herding. 

Most of their current dogs have atleast CGC titles and are all health tested. 


* About - Loyalville German Shepherds

Loyalville was actually posted a bit earlier, but that wasn't their actual site so wanted to make sure it was seen. 
Loyalville's owner is a breeder and trainer, her dogs are both titled and health tested and she only occasionally produces Pandas. Currently a few of her Pandas have titles in AKC Fast Cat with one Ranking #1. She also has a program going in order to have her dogs trained and titled by others to get them out there. 

https://www.facebook.com/RegalimageShepherds/

Regalimage was referred to me by another person, they both health test and work/show their dogs and title, they currently don't breed Pandas but because they have one and I assume have plans to breed her once she is titled and health tested, I have added them to the Panda part of the list. 
Regalimage currently has 1 panda that is being trained in scentwork, hopefully more to come on this one. 


Other Color Breeders (Including White): 

*https://www.bellevuegsd.com

Bellevue is located in CA, they breed mostly silvers and whites but have recently acquired both blue and Isabella. Bellevue dogs are mostly imported with notable pedigree's and all are health tested. Bellevue's new Isabella addition is being put through training for IPO, hopefully more to follow. 

https://www.facebook.com/silverayegsd/

Silver Raye Shepherds is located in PA, they specialize in mostly silvers and blues. Silver Raye both health tests and titles their dogs, mostly in conformation. 

Home

Ballynabola is located in the UK, they don't produce litters often but are very active with their dogs. Ballynabola produces long coats livers, blues, whites and standards. Dogs are shown in a variety of events and results are posted on their site. 

Welcome to Sugarloaf Shepherds - Championship German Shepherd Dogs of White Coat Color

Sugarloaf Shepherds is located in PA, these breeders specialize in white and standard ASL, dogs are health tested and titled. 
The reasoning for including a white shepherd breeder is because they actually currently have a white masking panda that was to be shown and uses one in their breeding program. This dog is white so it would be impossible to tell they were genetically panda, but thought it was great to see the diversity anyway. 

**Please note that I have come to know these kennels specifically through a club that supports off colored breeding with the goal to promote better breeding practices. As this club continues to develop there will hopefully be an online database that allows for potential buyers to easily access information on specific breeders as well as titles and health tests of their dogs. ANY breeder who does not at least health test their dogs with passing scores will not be added to this database. Once that is launched I will be sure to post it as a resource for those who are interested. 

Hope is information has been helpful.


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## Slamdunc

Curing said:


> It was a mutation that happened in the sperm, pretty much a 1 in a million phenotypical mutation (one that changes the look of the dog) and the probability of it mutating again is low, we have a higher probability of other white spotting mutations to take place then we do of this one ever mutating again.
> 
> That being said, the whole though process of a color "ruining" a whole generation is interesting to me. We're talking about taking a dog with white markings and breeding it to a dog with no white markings and then getting a litter of puppies where half have white and half don't. That means literally half of the litter would be judged based on color while the other half would be accepted.
> 
> The puppies could have identical drives, identical temperaments, identical structures (lets pretend they're all "to standard") and yet the dogs with white markings would be considered "poorly bred" just by first glance.
> 
> *Now its common knowledge that for the most part breeders who breed off standard colors aren't considered reputable or respectable and it would be ignorant to believe that colored dogs were in anyway superior to standards, cause lets be real nice colored dogs are not common. Thats what happens when lines become diluted.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that colors such as liver, blue, Isabella, panda, piebald and more can't be bred with integrity, responsibility and adhere to the original values of the breed. It doesn't mean that just because a breeder may fancy colors other then those that are traditional, that they have no regards for the breed. It simply means that they appreciate the breed not for the color, but the core traits of it. *
> 
> *What IF the first Panda Shepherd would've been an exquisite bitch? What if she would have been titled all the way to ScH3 and her progeny all titled as well? *
> 
> *The point I'm trying to make here is that color has no bearings on the integrity of the dog or the breeder, I'm not here to try and convince anyone that a Panda colored dog is in anyway superior or that they should be accepting of any off standard color, not here to say that all breeders of pandas are some how "reputable" or "responsible". *
> 
> All I'm trying to make clear is that breeding a certain color doesn't make someone a poor to non reputable breeder. A poor breeder is just that, with or without the colors. Theres just been stigma around it all for far to long.
> 
> *As someone who studies color genetics, its just all a mystery to me why one color would be accepted while the other is not other then by human preference*.


There are many issues with this type of thinking. Color does matter, just as temperament, drives and working ability matter.


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## Steve Strom

Steve Strom said:


> Don't spend too much time on it Curing. There is no one in the world breeding panda shepherds that are proven in anything except color. Tactical training, odds are some goofs in the woods with their guns pretending on Youtube. I don't care what their website says.


Wow, I was way off. Youtube? Clearly I should have said facebook. Sorry bout that.


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## Slamdunc

Curing said:


> It was a mutation that happened in the sperm, pretty much a 1 in a million phenotypical mutation (one that changes the look of the dog) and the probability of it mutating again is low, we have a higher probability of other white spotting mutations to take place then we do of this one ever mutating again.
> 
> That being said, the whole though process of a color "ruining" a whole generation is interesting to me. We're talking about taking a dog with white markings and breeding it to a dog with no white markings and then getting a litter of puppies where half have white and half don't. That means literally half of the litter would be judged based on color while the other half would be accepted.
> 
> The puppies could have identical drives, identical temperaments, identical structures (lets pretend they're all "to standard") and yet the dogs with white markings would be considered "poorly bred" just by first glance.
> 
> *Now its common knowledge that for the most part breeders who breed off standard colors aren't considered reputable or respectable and it would be ignorant to believe that colored dogs were in anyway superior to standards, cause lets be real nice colored dogs are not common. Thats what happens when lines become diluted.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that colors such as liver, blue, Isabella, panda, piebald and more can't be bred with integrity, responsibility and adhere to the original values of the breed. It doesn't mean that just because a breeder may fancy colors other then those that are traditional, that they have no regards for the breed. It simply means that they appreciate the breed not for the color, but the core traits of it. *
> 
> *What IF the first Panda Shepherd would've been an exquisite bitch? What if she would have been titled all the way to ScH3 and her progeny all titled as well? *
> 
> *The point I'm trying to make here is that color has no bearings on the integrity of the dog or the breeder, I'm not here to try and convince anyone that a Panda colored dog is in anyway superior or that they should be accepting of any off standard color, not here to say that all breeders of pandas are some how "reputable" or "responsible". *
> 
> All I'm trying to make clear is that breeding a certain color doesn't make someone a poor to non reputable breeder. A poor breeder is just that, with or without the colors. Theres just been stigma around it all for far to long.
> 
> *As someone who studies color genetics, its just all a mystery to me why one color would be accepted while the other is not other then by human preference*.


 @Curing,
There are many issues with this type of thinking. Color does matter, just as temperament, drives and working ability matter.

Breeders who breed for a certain color or trait are not considered "reputable" because their breeding disregards the standard for the breed. These breedings lack the working ability, drives and far too often a good temperament. When lines become diluted as you say, traits are lost. 

You wrote:
*But that doesn't mean that colors such as liver, blue, Isabella, panda, piebald and more can't be bred with integrity, responsibility and adhere to the original values of the breed. It doesn't mean that just because a breeder may fancy colors other then those that are traditional, that they have no regards for the breed.*

No, dogs bred for a certain color, conformation or drive do a disservice to the breed. The goal should be to breed to one standard that preserves the working ability, genetics, temperament and conformation of the breed. A breeder that that "fancies" a certain color such as white, liver or panda has no regard for the breed as it was designed to be. 

*It simply means that they appreciate the breed not for the color, but the core traits of it. *

No, you can not appreciate a dog's breed if you disregard the core traits of the breed. Breeding for color is not good breeding, IMHO.

You say what if the first Panda Shepherd was an exquisite bitch and an IPO3? That would have been an great accomplishment for the owner, but even then the dog should not be bred. There are plenty of exquisite IPO 3 bitches out there, I've owned and trained them. I've never bred them and they were to standard. Just because a dog is titled, is to standard in conformation and has a great temperament doesn't mean it is breed worthy. Without all of the genetic baggage of a panda shepherd. 

From my real world experience with working dogs and shoreline dogs, color does make a difference. Color absolutely has a bearing on the integrity of a dog and the breeder. I've owned a white GSD that I rescued. I've dealt with quite a few white GSD's over the years in rescue. I hate to generalize, but there clearly are temperament issues in those lines. I loved my white GSD, possibly my favorite all time dog. Breeding for a color is an issue, and temperament and working ability are the issues. 

*As someone who studies color genetics, its just all a mystery to me why one color would be accepted while the other is not other then by human preference*

If you truly study color genetics then get an out see the dogs in person. Go out and see them work, look at the temperament flaws, the lack of drive and the health issues. Studying genetics is great, but only so much can be learned from a book or the internet. 

I will give you a good example, in Holland a breeder can have a litter of puppies. These dogs may be malinois or Dutch Shepherds, from the same litter. If a puppy is fawn colored, then it is considered a Belgian Malinois. If a litter mate is brindle, that dog is a Dutch Shepherd. These dogs are from the same litter but the temperaments will be quite different. There is something to the color of these dogs that says a lot about their temperament.


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## LuvShepherds

Curing said:


> **Please note that I have come to know these kennels specifically through* a club that supports off colored breeding with the goal to promote better breeding practices*. As this club continues to develop there will hopefully be an online database that allows for potential buyers to easily access information on specific breeders as well as titles and health tests of their dogs. ANY breeder who does not at least health test their dogs with passing scores will not be added to this database. Once that is launched I will be sure to post it as a resource for those who are interested.


It’s not possible to support off color breeding with a goal of better breeding practices. One negates the other. Better breeding means not intentionally breeding away from the standard.


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## DaBai

I think lots of people get the cause and effect relationship wrong. The genetics for a specific color are not directly the cause of general health/temperament problems with off colored GSDs, but rather the disallowing and shaming of breeders who breed off colored GSDs over a long time causes the downhill qualities in off colored GSDs. So if we support good breeders to breed those colors like all other colors again (of course with health tested and temperament tested breeding stock), this trend can be potentially reversed. The off colors are off simply because people making the rules at that time didn't like those colors, it makes no sense to me why we can't reverse it back.


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## Kazel

DaBai said:


> I think lots of people get the cause and effect relationship wrong. The genetics for a specific color are not directly the cause of general health/temperament problems with off colored GSDs, but rather the disallowing and shaming of breeders who breed off colored GSDs over a long time causes the downhill qualities in off colored GSDs. So if we support good breeders to breed those colors like all other colors again (of course with health tested and temperament tested breeding stock), this trend can be potentially reversed. The off colors are off simply because people making the rules at that time didn't like those colors, it makes no sense to me why we can't reverse it back.


Think of this. Part of what makes a dog breed is how they look, pure and simple. Temperament, behavior, what the dog is for, those all matter as well as how the dog looks. 

So no people aren't going to support breeding dogs that don't look like what the breed should just like they won't support the wrong type of temperament. 

If you allow one part of the standard to slip when do you stop? All parts of it must be upheld to keep the breed a breed. 

If people don't like that they should pick a different breed they like the look of better or work on creating their own breed, which isn't easy or simple.


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## DaBai

Kazel said:


> Think of this. Part of what makes a dog breed is how they look, pure and simple. Temperament, behavior, what the dog is for, those all matter as well as how the dog looks.
> 
> So no people aren't going to support breeding dogs that don't look like what the breed should just like they won't support the wrong type of temperament.
> 
> If you allow one part of the standard to slip when do you stop? All parts of it must be upheld to keep the breed a breed.
> 
> If people don't like that they should pick a different breed they like the look of better or work on creating their own breed, which isn't easy or simple.


Well I guess then this becomes the question of whether the breed standard is really valid for today's dog enthusiasts. IMO breed standard should adapt to feedbacks from breed owners. Like for example, the steep angulation that is favored by the standard today is clearly not favored by most GSD owners who prefer health over angulation, and maybe the breed standard should adapt to that to disallow those with unhealthy angulation. I would also like to think most GSD owners don't mind the off colors being legal as well as the other colors as long as they are of same quality as the other colors, and the breed standard should adapt to this as well imo. I mean, color is such a very very very small percent of genetics, I don't really see the point of having to separate off colors into another breed and making both breeds' gene pool smaller just to make the off colors legit.


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## MineAreWorkingline

DaBai said:


> I think lots of people get the cause and effect relationship wrong. The genetics for a specific color are not directly the cause of general health/temperament problems with off colored GSDs, but rather *the disallowing and shaming of breeders who breed off colored GSDs over a long time causes the downhill qualities in off colored GSDs.* So if we support good breeders to breed those colors like all other colors again (of course with health tested and temperament tested breeding stock), this trend can be potentially reversed. The off colors are off simply because people making the rules at that time didn't like those colors, it makes no sense to me why we can't reverse it back.


How does shaming a breeder lower the genetic quality of the dogs they are breeding?


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## Slamdunc

DaBai said:


> I think lots of people get the cause and effect relationship wrong. The genetics for a specific color are not directly the cause of general health/temperament problems with off colored GSDs, but rather the disallowing and shaming of breeders who breed off colored GSDs over a long time causes the downhill qualities in off colored GSDs. So if we support good breeders to breed those colors like all other colors again (of course with health tested and temperament tested breeding stock), this trend can be potentially reversed. The off colors are off simply because people making the rules at that time didn't like those colors, it makes no sense to me why we can't reverse it back.


The problem is not the color, it is breeding for a certain color that is the problem. Being so "kennel blind" that all a breeder wants is a certain color, certain type or certain drive is the problem. When a breeder specifically breeds for one color then they almost always let other traits and temperament fall to the wayside. This is where the genetic problems, temperament and lack of working ability comes in. 

Just look at some of the kernels mentioned as "reputable" and see how many of their dogs are listed on the OFA website? Breeding for color, or size is a huge problem for me. When some advertises how "large" or big boned, or how much their GSDs weighs is another huge red flag. It is all the same mind set and lack of knowledge about what the GSD should be.


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## DaBai

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How does shaming a breeder lower the genetic quality of the dogs they are breeding?


The bad breeders who don't care about reputation are more likely to breed for them.


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## DaBai

Slamdunc said:


> The problem is not the color, it is breeding for a certain color that is the problem. Being so "kennel blind" that all a breeder wants is a certain color, certain type or certain drive is the problem. When a breeder specifically breeds for one color then they almost always let other traits and temperament fall to the wayside. This is where the genetic problems, temperament and lack of working ability comes in.
> 
> Just look at some of the kernels mentioned as "reputable" and see how many of their dogs are listed on the OFA website? Breeding for color, or size is a huge problem for me. When some advertises how "large" or big boned, or how much their GSDs weighs is another huge red flag. It is all the same mind set and lack of knowledge about what the GSD should be.


I totally agree with you that breeding for a specific color while sacrificing gene pool variety and sacrificing health and temperament is a huge problem and that is why the off colors get the bad rep. But I would like to support breeders who breed for traits they like (including color) under the condition that it does not hurt temperament and health, and breeders who breed for temperament and health but also allow their otherwise qualified but off colored dogs a chance to prove themselves and contribute to the gene pool.


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## DaBai

DaBai said:


> The bad breeders who don't care about reputation are more likely to breed for them.


While the good breeders who otherwise are not against the color but care about their reputation since they are good breeders are less likely to breed them.


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## Kazel

DaBai said:


> Well I guess then this becomes the question of whether the breed standard is really valid for today's dog enthusiasts. IMO breed standard should adapt to feedbacks from breed owners. Like for example, the steep angulation that is favored by the standard today is clearly not favored by most GSD owners who prefer health over angulation, and maybe the breed standard should adapt to that to disallow those with unhealthy angulation. I would also like to think most GSD owners don't mind the off colors being legal as well as the other colors as long as they are of same quality as the other colors, and the breed standard should adapt to this as well imo. I mean, color is such a very very very small percent of genetics, I don't really see the point of having to separate off colors into another breed and making both breeds' gene pool smaller just to make the off colors legit.


Those who do unhealthy angulation aren't following the standard just as those who do the wrong coat color aren't. That's what I meant by where do you accept a change in the standard? 

And no the standard should not adapt to breed owners, owners should stick by the standard. The breed standard is in place to create and maintain a breed. If people don't like how a breed is they shouldn't be involved in it, it's as simple as that. There are a lot of breeds out there, there is no need to try to change a breed to make it so it suits your preferences. For example what if a German shepherd is born with a naturally bobbed tail? Should that dog be bred to pass that trait on? No it should not because it is not part of the breed. And GSDs shouldn't start having docked tails just because somebody prefers that over long tails. If they want a dock tailed breed go for a dock tailed breed. 

And saying colors are a small percent of genetics so it doesn't matter is ridiculous. It makes up a part of the whole just as every other trait does. And at this point in our knowledge of genetics we don't know what role colors may play. Genes can be linked in unimaginable ways. For example in the domestication of foxes coloration not seen in natural foxes is being bred suggesting perhaps a links between the 'tame' genes and colors. 

I'm not saying there are anything wrong with the different colors. But they shouldn't be something to breed for. If that dog was truly exceptional and could actually contribute something to the breed them perhaps it should be bred to another dog that will negate that effect. Such a breeding it to a sable in an effort to reduce the fall in standard, just like a dog with weak ears should not be bred of should be bred only to dogs with stronger ears. Color isn't necessarily an end all to a dog but people who breed for colors treat it as if the unusual color by itself makes it extraordinary and worth breeding. If they are breeding for color are they working twice as hard to make sure the dog falls into the standard into every other way? Often not because they're already putting color as a priority.


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## LuvShepherds

Here is a study that looks at coat color and traits, including aggression. Dark coat colors are associated with higher aggression. So, what if the washed out lighter colors, which is what we are seeing in all these off color dogs, also results in a lessening of the natural aggression German Shepherds are bred for? There are assumptions made that because the dogs were tested and are genetically GSDs that there are no other differences. But unless the off colors are tested for each of the breed traits and characteristics, we don’t know.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c3a0/a6046c68e61476b4880f6d84733a3b956275.pdf


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## MineAreWorkingline

Curing said:


> Sorry everyone, I work in a job that is very time consuming and can take me at random times. Below I will list all of the kennels I either personally know the owners of (I will put a * next to those) or personally know work/show and health test their dogs (Have seen pictures, videos, or the titles). I will put the Pandas up first just because thats what this thread is about and then put the other kennels below. Will add a description to each.
> 
> Please be aware I am only adding kennels that I either personally know or that I know enough about to be confident enough to post. While there are others that I am aware of that do work, because I am either unsure if they health test or just unsure of their kennel name, they will not be added.
> Kennels that I know of that have dogs that produce progeny that are tested and have good results, but don't have public info for health tests on their own stock and don't title will also not be added.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Panda breeders:
> 
> * https://www.malakkennels.com/home
> 
> Please forgive the outdated site, the owner said they were working on an updated on soon.
> Malak kennels is a German Shepherd breeder in SC, they do mostly tactical work with their dogs and have proven narc and bomb detection dogs, they have done work in the country and oversee's. They also have a proven panda SD. Currently Malak kennels has 2 Panda's in training for Tactical work, these dogs are still young, so more to come.
> Current Panda male is trained in herding.
> 
> Most of their current dogs have atleast CGC titles and are all health tested.
> 
> 
> * About - Loyalville German Shepherds
> 
> Loyalville was actually posted a bit earlier, but that wasn't their actual site so wanted to make sure it was seen.
> Loyalville's owner is a breeder and trainer, her dogs are both titled and health tested and she only occasionally produces Pandas. Currently a few of her Pandas have titles in AKC Fast Cat with one Ranking #1. She also has a program going in order to have her dogs trained and titled by others to get them out there.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/RegalimageShepherds/
> 
> Regalimage was referred to me by another person, they both health test and work/show their dogs and title, they currently don't breed Pandas but because they have one and I assume have plans to breed her once she is titled and health tested, I have added them to the Panda part of the list.
> Regalimage currently has 1 panda that is being trained in scentwork, hopefully more to come on this one.
> 
> 
> Other Color Breeders (Including White):
> 
> *https://www.bellevuegsd.com
> 
> Bellevue is located in CA, they breed mostly silvers and whites but have recently acquired both blue and Isabella. Bellevue dogs are mostly imported with notable pedigree's and all are health tested. Bellevue's new Isabella addition is being put through training for IPO, hopefully more to follow.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/silverayegsd/
> 
> Silver Raye Shepherds is located in PA, they specialize in mostly silvers and blues. Silver Raye both health tests and titles their dogs, mostly in conformation.
> 
> Home
> 
> Ballynabola is located in the UK, they don't produce litters often but are very active with their dogs. Ballynabola produces long coats livers, blues, whites and standards. Dogs are shown in a variety of events and results are posted on their site.
> 
> Welcome to Sugarloaf Shepherds - Championship German Shepherd Dogs of White Coat Color
> 
> Sugarloaf Shepherds is located in PA, these breeders specialize in white and standard ASL, dogs are health tested and titled.
> The reasoning for including a white shepherd breeder is because they actually currently have a white masking panda that was to be shown and uses one in their breeding program. This dog is white so it would be impossible to tell they were genetically panda, but thought it was great to see the diversity anyway.
> 
> **Please note that I have come to know these kennels specifically through a club that supports off colored breeding with the goal to promote better breeding practices. As this club continues to develop there will hopefully be an online database that allows for potential buyers to easily access information on specific breeders as well as titles and health tests of their dogs. ANY breeder who does not at least health test their dogs with passing scores will not be added to this database. Once that is launched I will be sure to post it as a resource for those who are interested.
> 
> Hope is information has been helpful.


1) I like off color dogs. I used to own a blue and tan. I always felt that it was a shame that off colors were not permitted, but the breed standard is what it is, and I choose not to fight that battle.

2) As a child, a neighbor had a black and silver dog. I mean a true black and silver. Not these black and cream dogs that so many call black and silvers but a true black and "old lady blue gray hair" silver color. She was stunning, absolutely stunning. A few other people in the area owned what were called silver sables, dogs with light silver gray undercoats with heavy black tipping and pale cream colored legs that would be considered a dark sable. They were just as handsome. I would love to have had a dog of either color, especially the black and silver, but in the ensuing years, I never encountered dogs colored like them again. I still look today, even just to see one again.

3) True story! I joined a group on Facebook about silver Shepherds. Somebody was advertising an upcoming litter. Of course I was curious about the litter and the genetics behind it. Turns out I knew the breeder of the stud dog, who was a dark sable with a tan undercoat with red overtones (what most would probably call a red sable). He did have the often seen "bright spots" in a line behind his shoulder and in his britches like most of the dogs in this link: The sable Shepherd - "A museum piece"?

I questioned the genetics to learn, not criticize, how the breeder could predict that all the puppies would be silver sables. The dam was a light sable. Her response was that both parents were silvers. I politely explained that the sire was a red sable and that I knew his previous owner, who would document that he was not a silver sable, nor were there silver sables in the Czech working lines he was bred from. She went on to explain that the bright spots were silver, hence the sire was a silver sable. I explained that those markings were known as bright spots and I was promptly banned from the group.

I really don't care about the banning, but here are my concerns. Who makes the determination as to the color on these dogs? Obviously, some breeders don't know the difference themselves. The reason that I am commenting is that this breeder is one of those on your list. If one of your hand picked breeders is not capable of determining color, and are selling the offspring as off colors when they are not, well that simply reeks.


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How does shaming a breeder lower the genetic quality of the dogs they are breeding?


Because once they are ostracized they don't have access to interbreed with good genetic quality to maintain their line.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Kazel said:


> Those who do unhealthy angulation aren't following the standard just as those who do the wrong coat color aren't. That's what I meant by where do you accept a change in the standard?
> 
> And no the standard should not adapt to breed owners, owners should stick by the standard. The breed standard is in place to create and maintain a breed. If people don't like how a breed is they shouldn't be involved in it, it's as simple as that. There are a lot of breeds out there, there is no need to try to change a breed to make it so it suits your preferences. For example what if a German shepherd is born with a naturally bobbed tail? Should that dog be bred to pass that trait on? No it should not because it is not part of the breed. And GSDs shouldn't start having docked tails just because somebody prefers that over long tails. If they want a dock tailed breed go for a dock tailed breed.
> 
> And saying colors are a small percent of genetics so it doesn't matter is ridiculous. It makes up a part of the whole just as every other trait does. And at this point in our knowledge of genetics we don't know what role colors may play. Genes can be linked in unimaginable ways. For example in the domestication of foxes coloration not seen in natural foxes is being bred suggesting perhaps a links between the 'tame' genes and colors.
> 
> I'm not saying there are anything wrong with the different colors. But they shouldn't be something to breed for. If that dog was truly exceptional and could actually contribute something to the breed them perhaps it should be bred to another dog that will negate that effect. Such a breeding it to a sable in an effort to reduce the fall in standard, just like a dog with weak ears should not be bred of should be bred only to dogs with stronger ears. Color isn't necessarily an end all to a dog but people who breed for colors treat it as if the unusual color by itself makes it extraordinary and worth breeding. If they are breeding for color are they working twice as hard to make sure the dog falls into the standard into every other way? Often not because they're already putting color as a priority.


So. It hasn't yet been mentioned on this thread that I saw the west german showline breeders are basically color breeders at this point.

There IS just a little bit of hypocrisy or double standard about.

I'm not super impressed with any of those breeders listed, and most if not all titles I saw were RN, BN, CGC, RATN, so novice this that and everything and not much challenge at all. Still, way better than nothing. At least they took the dog somewhere and did something with it


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## Thecowboysgirl

DaBai said:


> I think lots of people get the cause and effect relationship wrong. The genetics for a specific color are not directly the cause of general health/temperament problems with off colored GSDs, but rather the disallowing and shaming of breeders who breed off colored GSDs over a long time causes the downhill qualities in off colored GSDs. So if we support good breeders to breed those colors like all other colors again (of course with health tested and temperament tested breeding stock), this trend can be potentially reversed. The off colors are off simply because people making the rules at that time didn't like those colors, it makes no sense to me why we can't reverse it back.


I think this is a legitimate statement. I have often said this about the whites. Presumably a lot of them were neutered and maybe killed at birth so what was left to choose from to smuggle out to make up the white shepherds that are now existing probably wasn't the best examples of the breed.

Because whites are just inferior, or because waht percentage of the GSD population was white to begin with, minus ones killed or neutered, down to however many of them that were the foundations of the whites we have now. 

If nothing else--I know the regular breeders don't want whites in their programs but if nothing else I don't know why they don't bring color shepherds into the white population to improve it. Unless because reputable breeders of color shepherds wouldn't sell their dogs as breeding stock to a white breeder....

Breeders of any other off color could do the same, but then they have to give up a few generations of the color they want. If they aren't willing to give up the color or type they want for better genetics then they shouldn't be breeding- I say.

I'll also say my white is a darn good dog. I'm sure he is too soft for certain German shepherd endeavors. I don't know if they all are because I only have him. But if they are, then that should be improved upon, and it could be if people were motivated to do it.

There are white breeders overseas that are doing Schutzhund with their whites


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## DaBai

Kazel said:


> Those who do unhealthy angulation aren't following the standard just as those who do the wrong coat color aren't. That's what I meant by where do you accept a change in the standard?
> 
> And no the standard should not adapt to breed owners, owners should stick by the standard. The breed standard is in place to create and maintain a breed. If people don't like how a breed is they shouldn't be involved in it, it's as simple as that. There are a lot of breeds out there, there is no need to try to change a breed to make it so it suits your preferences. For example what if a German shepherd is born with a naturally bobbed tail? Should that dog be bred to pass that trait on? No it should not because it is not part of the breed. And GSDs shouldn't start having docked tails just because somebody prefers that over long tails. If they want a dock tailed breed go for a dock tailed breed.
> 
> And saying colors are a small percent of genetics so it doesn't matter is ridiculous. It makes up a part of the whole just as every other trait does. And at this point in our knowledge of genetics we don't know what role colors may play. Genes can be linked in unimaginable ways. For example in the domestication of foxes coloration not seen in natural foxes is being bred suggesting perhaps a links between the 'tame' genes and colors.
> 
> I'm not saying there are anything wrong with the different colors. But they shouldn't be something to breed for. If that dog was truly exceptional and could actually contribute something to the breed them perhaps it should be bred to another dog that will negate that effect. Such a breeding it to a sable in an effort to reduce the fall in standard, just like a dog with weak ears should not be bred of should be bred only to dogs with stronger ears. Color isn't necessarily an end all to a dog but people who breed for colors treat it as if the unusual color by itself makes it extraordinary and worth breeding. If they are breeding for color are they working twice as hard to make sure the dog falls into the standard into every other way? Often not because they're already putting color as a priority.


Those who do unhealthy angulation is allowed on shows and competitions while the off colors aren't. Which are more serious?

I am not saying a breed standard adapts to someone's preference, but rather a vote among registered GSD owners sort of thing, if most GSD owners want/wouldn't mind some change in the breed, then why not change it to suit people' preference to improve the breed? A breed can only survive and improve if there are many people willing to pay for it. This is a supply + demand thing.

Also regarding your statement on color genetics, my statement that color makes up a very very very small percent of genes is not ridiculous. Color genes are just 8 of thousands of protein coding genes of a dog, it is actually that insignificant. And we have absolutely no proof that the color genes alone directly cause any problems in the dog while we have many proof that genes are randomly inherited by offsprings and one trait does not necessarily link to another. One reason that a specific color tends to have certain traits is that the dog with that color also has the chromosome that contains that color, which means they also have the chromosome from that colored dog which also codes for behaviors outside of color. But this will change if you breed for more generations and chromosome crossover happens more.


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## GypsyGhost

DaBai said:


> Those who do unhealthy angulation is allowed on shows and competitions while the off colors aren't. Which are more serious?
> 
> I am not saying a breed standard adapts to someone's preference, but rather a vote among registered GSD owners sort of thing, if most GSD owners want/wouldn't mind some change in the breed, then why not change it to suit people' preference to improve the breed? A breed can only survive and improve if there are many people willing to pay for it. This is a supply + demand thing.
> 
> Also regarding your statement on color genetics, my statement that color makes up a very very very small percent of genes is not ridiculous. Color genes are just 8 of thousands of protein coding genes of a dog, it is actually that insignificant. And we have absolutely no proof that the color genes alone directly cause any problems in the dog while we have many proof that genes are randomly inherited by offsprings and one trait does not necessarily link to another. One reason that a specific color tends to have certain traits is that the dog with that color also has the chromosome that contains that color, which means they also have the chromosome from that colored dog which also codes for behaviors outside of color. But this will change if you breed for more generations and chromosome crossover happens more.


In my opinion, it’s not the genes for color themselves that are the problem. At least not in GSDs. It’s that breeders who breed for these colors are likely not testing their breeding stock the way reputable breeders who breed to the standard are. So the color genes may not be causing issues, but the potential for health issues due to not testing for them and temperament issues due to not proving the dogs are greater.


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## WIBackpacker

DaBai said:


> Those who do unhealthy angulation is allowed on shows and competitions while the off colors aren't. Which are more serious?
> 
> I am not saying a breed standard adapts to someone's preference, *but rather a vote among registered GSD owners sort of thing, if most GSD owners want/wouldn't mind some change in the breed, then why not change it to suit people' preference to improve the breed? *A breed can only survive and improve if there are many people willing to pay for it. This is a supply + demand thing.


The breed club does, actually, take votes. There was a vote taken fairly recently about amending the standard/splitting the breed as pertains to white GSDs, and it was voted down by the membership.

Then there was another vote about whether or not dogs with disqualifying faults could earn the top Victor/Victrix performance awards at the national after what happened in 2013, and it was decided that DQ dogs were not eligible. They can take High In Trial, but cannot take Victor/Victrix.

As a result, the breed club created separate awards for top-scoring white dogs last year (2017) at the National, which opened another giant can of worms, because these color-specific awards are only for white dogs, not livers or blues or (as pertains to this discussion) pandas. Or dogs with any other conformation-based DQ, such as hanging ears, cropped tail, etc.

Votes do happen, but in order to voice your opinion, you have to be a member, and stay up to date on what is getting voted on and when. Lots of people aren't, for lots of different reasons.....


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## DaBai

WIBackpacker said:


> The breed club does, actually, take votes. There was a vote taken fairly recently about amending the standard as pertains to white GSDs, and it was voted down by the membership.
> 
> Then there was another vote about whether or not dogs with disqualifying faults could earn the top Victor/Victrix performance awards at the national after what happened in 2013, and it was decided that DQ dogs were not eligible. They can take High In Trial, but cannot take Victor/Victrix.
> 
> As a result, the breed club created separate awards for top-scoring white dogs last year (2017) at the National, which opened another giant can of worms, because these color-specific awards are only for white dogs, not livers or blues or (as pertains to this discussion) pandas. Or dogs with any other conformation-based DQ, such as hanging ears, cropped tail, etc.
> 
> Votes do happen, but in order to voice your opinion, you have to be a member, and stay up to date on what is getting voted on and when. Lots of people aren't, for lots of different reasons.....


Thanks so much for sharing this information! I didn't even there there was this thing going on lol.


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## Thecowboysgirl

DaBai said:

"Those who do unhealthy angulation is allowed on shows and competitions while the off colors aren't. Which are more serious?"

This is the crux of the issue for me too. Stuff that makes opposite of logical sense to me really gets under my skin. White dogs have really way better conformation that many ASL dogs and even better than WGSL if you ask me, at least the extreme ones.

THAT'S a real problem. That effects the quality of life and working ability of the dog, big time. And yet those dogs are embraced by the AKC and the SV and the whites aren't?

Maybe there is some correlation between color and other things--obviously there is with the panda, I have never heard of any such thing to do with livers and blues. I don't know approximately what percentage of the original population of German Shepherds were white, liver, or blue. A small percent, I assume. If those color dogs had been left alone as an unremarkable portion of the GSD population, the impact of anything related to those colors could never have done much. But since they have been disqualified and forced to separate, now they are the total of the gene pool for their population so to speak.

I suppose breeders who adhere to the color standards which don't include white, blue and liver, don't care. It isn't their problem those dogs are out there, it doesn't have any impact on their dogs because they aren't breeding to them and if one pops up in their breeding they will make sure it is speutered. except I feel like it is everybody's problems because we are still all German Shepherds. Now I know plenty of people don't believe that either, and the only REAL german shepherd is "your" german shepherd---working line or WGSL depending on which breeder you ask.

Bottom line is that it feels like utter nonsense that breeders, kennel clubs, fanciers, have gone to so much trouble to exclude these colored dogs when they embrace these physically and sometimes temperamentally messed up show dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl

GypsyGhost said:


> In my opinion, it’s not the genes for color themselves that are the problem. At least not in GSDs. It’s that breeders who breed for these colors are likely not testing their breeding stock the way reputable breeders who breed to the standard are. So the color genes may not be causing issues, but the potential for health issues due to not testing for them and temperament issues due to not proving the dogs are greater.


I totally agree with this. So as I passionately argue for the whites which I love, anybody reading this thread needs to realize that if they go shopping for an off color dog, they potentially have to try much harder to find a reputable breeder or none may exist period. There are reputable white breeders, I do not know that there is such a thing as a reputable breeder of these other colors.

Incidentally, I know a dog from K9 Pines. She is a regular black and tan. She is a nice dog in a pet scenario. I have no idea what she is like health wise and I am sure they have not x rayed her, but she is pleasant and stable as a pet.


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## Sabis mom

It is my opinion that regardless of color before any working animal is bred it should need to prove it's work ability. If it does not it cannot be registered at all. This would solve all the issues.
Wait. Wasn't this the original idea?


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## LuvShepherds

@Thecowboysgirl My neighbor had a beautiful, white female. She was a very good example of a structurally sound German Shepherd. Gorgeous topline, beautiful head. She was an excellent family dog. They were runners and took her everywhere. She was unusually friendly for the breed and extremely submissive. She had no aggression at all, didn’t even bark when a stranger came to their house. But, she was not extremely healthy and I think they lost her at age 10. For some reason, they did not replace her. I thought she was a good pet dog, but she was far from temperament standard. 

Of course WGSL breeders consider color. That is an important part of the overall dog, but it’s not the only or most important feature. I searched here when I first joined the forum for red coloring and saw most posts about color as a selection feature were against it. Not that buyers shouldn’t consider color but that everything else is more important. So it would be foolish for a breeder not to consider color if they are breeding for a general population of buyers, but it should be way down on the list. If red was more important to me than anything else, I would have a red dog now and would have missed out on the real joys of owning a WL. 

A friend just shared a post by a working dog owner about how he selects breeding stock. He talked about temperament first, then structure. There wasn’t a single word about color. For someone with working dogs, who uses them in the ways they were meant to be used, color is not important. Temperament issues that might come up with certain colors would be.

I had one rare-color rescue. He was black and silver. His light fur was light gray. I had never heard of silver before, so I called him Black and Tan until our vet said that was not correct, he was actually silver. He was very sweet at home but he was a nervebag with strangers.


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## Thecowboysgirl

LuvShepherds said:


> @Thecowboysgirl My neighbor had a beautiful, white female. She was a very good example of a structurally sound German Shepherd. Gorgeous topline, beautiful head. She was an excellent family dog. They were runners and took her everywhere. She was unusually friendly for the breed and extremely submissive. She had no aggression at all, didn’t even bark when a stranger came to their house. But, she was not extremely healthy and I think they lost her at age 10. For some reason, they did not replace her. I thought she was a good pet dog, but she was far from temperament standard.
> 
> Of course WGSL breeders consider color. That is an important part of the overall dog, but it’s not the only or most important feature. I searched here when I first joined the forum for red coloring and saw most posts about color as a selection feature were against it. Not that buyers shouldn’t consider color but that everything else is more important. So it would be foolish for a breeder not to consider color if they are breeding for a general population of buyers, but it should be way down on the list. If red was more important to me than anything else, I would have a red dog now and would have missed out on the real joys of owning a WL.
> 
> A friend just shared a post by a working dog owner about how he selects breeding stock. He talked about temperament first, then structure. There wasn’t a single word about color. For someone with working dogs, who uses them in the ways they were meant to be used, color is not important. Temperament issues that might come up with certain colors would be.
> 
> I had one rare-color rescue. He was black and silver. His light fur was light gray. I had never heard of silver before, so I called him Black and Tan until our vet said that was not correct, he was actually silver. He was very sweet at home but he was a nervebag with strangers.


The way it sounds, the color has really had a negative impact on the wgsl. 

My white dog is OFA good/normal, has no other issues. Had stomach problems when he was younger but I think I understand what the problem was and have fixed it, not intolerance or allergy.

He is not overly friendly. Pretty aloof with strangers with the exception that he accidentally learned that if he gives his ball on a rope to people other than me he is more likely to get an exciting throw. I am very careful how I throw toys because I've had too many dogs including him crash and get hurt. Consequently I am not as much fun as people who don't know about crashing and wing the ball as far and as fast down the hill as possible so he is a bit indiscriminate about trying to get new people to throw his ball but to be honest he doesn't want to be friends he just wants a new ball slave LOL

He will put on a good show with a good deep bark if a stranger surprises me in the truck, or if he thinks a stranger is around the house. I suspect it would be easy to back him down- I suspect there is no fight in him, so he is a good watch dog and that is it. If I tell him to stop the bark but not to welcome the person he stands there with an indifferent stare....they know he isn't waiting to make friends. It unnerves people because he is a big dog but again I bet an aggressive man could back him off easily enough. If I tell him to welcome a guest he will make friends in our home, out and about he doesn't really care to be pals with strangers. He will give a minor wag and usually tolerate a pet but he doesn't just genuinely like or what to meet random people

These are just my semi uneducated (as I have never been involved with Schh or any protection training) observations. My working line girl seems to relish a fight and is pretty fearless. She enjoys getting smacked around when she plays and a big man yelling or raising a hand to her she thinks is game on. That tenacity is there--- try to take her toy and she wants to fight (good naturedly, she isn't a guarder, but I can sense that fight in her) The boy I feel strongly would be like nah, I'm outta here. He won't fight you for a toy either...he is too...POLITE. He is like "here, mama, want my toy? No problem." He is too polite for a fight. Not much tenacity, maybe none. So easy to train, so easy to discipline, so easy to live with, and I bet equally easy to defeat in a fight. He will take you out playing tug but if you give him the barest hint you want him to release the toy he spits it out--her, forget about it, she wants that toy and she latches on like a snapping turtle. Of course I taught him a better out because I failed at that when she was young but still I feel there is more to it than that. I think if she had learned schutz or something like that and had been taught how to fight with a decoy she would have LOVED it. the boy, no way. He just doesn't want to fight anybody over anything.

He is a pretty good example of a white shepherd I think? But this is my sense of how he mainly differs from her, the fight, the tenacity, just isn't there. He isn't a fearful dog but I also do not sense that self confident courage in him that she had. I say had because heck, she is getting old and blind and senile now and her heart is still there but the rest is beginning to fail her.

But my old yellow dog-- the mostly GSD and probably mostly white at that, definitely had the courage and the fight but only if it was real, not for a game. But if there was a real threat, he was a real dog.

So who knows. I don't have enough GSDs of different types to say anything I feel like I could stand behind as a general statement about whites vs working lines and I've never lived with a showline so I have no idea about that. I have known a few that were very very social and friendly.

I'd love to see a white dog that had that courage and that fight.


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## LuvShepherds

I didn’t mean to criticize your dog. He sounds like he’s just what you need. We all want different things from our dogs, but overall most GSD buyers want dogs that are protective as well as the other features we look for in the breed. I like different colors but I don’t think breeders should breed only or mainly for color.


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## Thecowboysgirl

LuvShepherds said:


> I didn’t mean to criticize your dog. He sounds like he’s just what you need. We all want different things from our dogs, but overall most GSD buyers want dogs that are protective as well as the other features we look for in the breed. I like different colors but I don’t think breeders should breed only or mainly for color.


I didn't think you were criticizing him. i was just pondering what I can tell that is different about them for the heck of it.

In some ways he's exactly what I wanted, in some ways not. But same with her---I have yet to find the perfect dog, it probably doesn't exist.

I think most people would say he is protective...I think the average GSD owner would perceive him as that. He certainly raises a good alarm and I do think someone would be in trouble if they tried to force their way into my truck with me.


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## Sabis mom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I didn't think you were criticizing him. i was just pondering what I can tell that is different about them for the heck of it.
> 
> In some ways he's exactly what I wanted, in some ways not. But same with her---I have yet to find the perfect dog, it probably doesn't exist.
> 
> I think most people would say he is protective...I think the average GSD owner would perceive him as that. He certainly raises a good alarm and I do think someone would be in trouble if they tried to force their way into my truck with me.


Perfect dogs do not exist, except to you. 
Shadow is a mess, lol. But she loves me, she is loyal, she is funny and I would not give her up for any dog. I firmly believe that every dog should have one person who thinks they are the best dog ever! That does not mean we ignore their faults, it means we love them in spite of them. Or because of them. Perfect for me is not perfect for you.
I have every faith that were I in trouble my little disaster would give it her all to help.


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## Cuckoo

Had what everyone said was a Panda Shepherd...adopted her from a divorce...beautiful, gorgeous tri-colored dog...sadly passed away at 3 yrs old from sudden attack of immune mediated hemolytic anemia...autoimmune disease that takes a healthy dog down very fast. Likely genetic...could have been related to her breeding..,,just find a healthy dog you love and don’t focus on outward appearance.


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## coolgsd

*Panda shepherds*

There may be mongrels that are called panda shepherds but until they get their own breed designated they will remain mongrels. They are NOT German Shepherd Dogs. The standard was set by Max von Stephanitz in Germany and the SV still recognizes the standard. Outside of the standard is a genetic throwback or mutation.


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## Mr.GSD

*Panda "Shepard" inquiry*

Please email me directly. Use [email protected] to do so. Fred Lanting




jenn5175 said:


> I have an 8 yr old GSD, Rex, whom is my life. Lately I have been playing with the idea of getting a puppy to have Rex help train before he gets too old. Not sold on the idea yet, but just starting to think about it.
> 
> I am obsessed with unique coloring, but would love a purebred GSD because Rex is such an amazing dog. I recently came across Panda Shepards and LOVE their coloring! However, everything I find - even in here - the links are broken and the info is old.
> 
> Does anyone know a breeder in or around Michigan that breeds purebred, AKC pandas? I don't want to show, just want to verify it isn't a cross being passed off as a shepherd. I want the brain and personality of a pure shepherd, but would love an unexpected color if possible.
> 
> Send me over anyone you have seen that breeds panda shepherds - thanks!


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## Sunsilver

Hello, Fred! I am curious to know what an internationally recognized judge such as yourself thinks of these dogs. 

Always a pleasure to 'see' you here, and to know you are still alive and kicking!


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## Whiteshepherds

WIBackpacker said:


> The breed club does, actually, take votes. There was a vote taken fairly recently about amending the standard/splitting the breed as pertains to white GSDs, and it was voted down by the membership.


The vote for a change to the standard was in part to reclassify white as a serious rather than disqualifying fault. Blue and liver would have been moved from serious fault to fault but would still be disqualified based on the color of their noses. To the best of my knowledge the GSDCA membership has never voted to remove whites from the breed like they did in the SV. 
The GSDCA board voted to allow the whites to apply for recognition in the AKC FSS program in 2011 but that vote was rescinded a few days later when a GSDCA board member called for an emergency phone conference to rescind the vote. 



WIBackpacker said:


> Then there was another vote about whether or not dogs with disqualifying faults could earn the top Victor/Victrix performance awards at the national after what happened in 2013, and it was decided that DQ dogs were not eligible. They can take High In Trial, but cannot take Victor/Victrix.


Weren’t dogs with dq’s disqualified from competing for this award pre 2013? If memory serves me right, the GSDCA board voted (not the membership) in 2012 (for the year 2013) to allow all registered GSD’s to compete for the Obedience Victor/Victrix title, before that dogs with dq’s were not qualified. The 2013 Obedience Victrix was Zephyr's Adelaide Princess UDX3 OM2 CD owed by Ron Halling…..she was white. by 2014 dogs with dq’s were once again disqualified but I can't remember if it was a board decision or voted on by the membership. 

For a time the brochure people were receiving when they registered GSD's with the AKC included a picture of a white GSD...squeaky wheels in the GSDCA about lost their minds. smh


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## WIBackpacker

Whiteshepherds said:


> The vote for a change to the standard was in part to reclassify white as a serious rather than disqualifying fault. Blue and liver would have been moved from serious fault to fault but would still be disqualified based on the color of their noses. To the best of my knowledge the GSDCA membership has never voted to remove whites from the breed like they did in the SV.
> The GSDCA board voted to allow the whites to apply for recognition in the AKC FSS program in 2011 but that vote was rescinded a few days later when a GSDCA board member called for an emergency phone conference to rescind the vote.
> 
> 
> 
> *Weren’t dogs with dq’s disqualified from competing for this award pre 2013? If memory serves me right, the GSDCA board voted (not the membership) in 2012 (for the year 2013) to allow all registered GSD’s to compete for the Obedience Victor/Victrix title, before that dogs with dq’s were not qualified. The 2013 Obedience Victrix was Zephyr's Adelaide Princess UDX3 OM2 CD owed by Ron Halling…..she was white. by 2014 dogs with dq’s were once again disqualified but I can't remember if it was a board decision or voted on by the membership. *
> 
> For a time the brochure people were receiving when they registered GSD's with the AKC included a picture of a white GSD...squeaky wheels in the GSDCA about lost their minds. smh


My understanding (i used to be a member of a club that included people who were part of this argument) is that DQ dogs were always supposed to be ineligible for Victor/Victrix awards at the National.

But when Addie beat all the other dogs in the obedience ring in 2013, there was nothing in the trial premium stating DQ dogs couldn't take Victor/Victrix. So there was no "choice" except to award the white GSD. Maybe it was just secretarial error. Not entirely clear, but that was one thing that got thrown around. 

After that, the fallout began.

Premiums 2014 and after were very explicit about it, and then the argument about separate awards based on color came back to life last fall, and of course the example brought forward is what happened in 2013.

There were some very strong emails that flew back and forth about this right after the 2013 National, but I have no doubt I only heard part of the total argument.


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