# DNA Testing and German shepherds



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

Does anyone on the forum have any experience with DNA testing on their German shepherds?

The woman who I purchased my GSD from is being sued by a customer who purchased two puppies from her. Their vet told them the dogs weren't German shepherds because they have long coats and they went back to the breeder to complain. She offered to take the dogs back (they are both from the same litter and 18 months old now) and refund their money, but the customers refused and wanted to keep the dogs AND get a full refund. When the breeder refused to refund and let them keep the dogs, they took her to court over dog #1, and they won, getting both their money and the dog. Now they are suing over dog #2. 

The plaintiffs' DNA testing of the dog indicated it was about 75% GSD with Belgian Turveren in the 4th or 5th generation back on the bitch's side and "herding group" several generations back (no ID on the breed just group type). The breeder's DNA tests on the parent dogs indicated 87.5% GSD with the remaining 12.5% Belgian Turveren and "herding group" dogs. 

My understanding is that no GSD tests "pure" because for many years after the first GSDs were bred they continued crossing in other herding dogs to improve the breed. Is this true?

Just a few facts...when I purchased my dog from this breeder, she invited me to her home to view the sire and the dam. She introduced me to the grandsire of the line who is 19 years old -- yes 19 and healthy with no joint or hip problems -- and explained that she breeds for health first, temperament second, and that all her dogs are pet quality family dogs. If I was looking for a fancy pedigree show dog, her dogs were not for me. They were not papered and neither parent dog was a registered GSD. She was candid about the whole thing and gave me the contact information for the veterinarian who sees her dogs and invited me to check with any of her other customers. She did the same for friends who recommended her to me (which is how I found her).

I'm looking for any information on DNA testing and GSDs to help her with her case. If you had your GSD DNA tested, what did it come up with? Do any GSDs test 100% GSD? I think that might be impossible for any dog breed.

Any insight you can share would be helpful and I will share with her.

This case just upsets me so much. She is a disabled US Army veteran who breeds GSDs for love of the dog and the breed, and she raises them all with love in her home. She was so generous with her time when I had questions when I first got my dog and her dogs are all lovely family pets. A few have gone on to be therapy dogs, guide dogs, and one is a police dog. They are just wonderful healthy animals and it is a shame she is having this trouble.

Thank you for any help you can provide or insight into German shepherd DNA testing.

Here is a picture of the dogs in question. I'm not sure if the ears on the one don't stand upright or it's just a lousy picture. They are from the same litter.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jeepers Creepers.....


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I'm afraid that I can't answer what your questions; perhaps someone else will be able to. But, was there nothing about the following that gave you pause?



Jeanne Grunert said:


> * She introduced me to the grandsire of the line who is 19 years old -- yes 19 and healthy with no joint or hip problems -- and explained that she breeds for health first, temperament second, and that all her dogs are pet quality family dogs. If I was looking for a fancy pedigree show dog, her dogs were not for me. They were not papered and neither parent dog was a registered GSD. *


----------



## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

I've Embarked Steel - I'm waiting for the results now - mainly curious of the coat color he carries (though it's Sable/something for sure, thinking black. No coaties from him either).
I do believe the ones I've seen through Embark have came back 100% GSD if they were actually purebred.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Yes, I know of 3 GSD (2 are board members) who have gotten results of 100% GSD using Embark.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

Aly said:


> I'm afraid that I can't answer what your questions; perhaps someone else will be able to. But, was there nothing about the following that gave you pause?


I'm sorry but I don't understand your point? Can you please explain what you mean?


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

Thank you; that is good to know.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

No registration on the sire and dam would give me pause. But then I'd want some sort of a title on each of them, too.



On the DNA thing -- I wouldn't DNA test my dogs. GSDs were developed as a "blend" of herding dogs. It would not be surprising to see a Belgian show up in a DNA test.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

middleofnowhere said:


> No registration on the sire and dam would give me pause. But then I'd want some sort of a title on each of them, too.
> 
> 
> 
> On the DNA thing -- I wouldn't DNA test my dogs. GSDs were developed as a "blend" of herding dogs. It would not be surprising to see a Belgian show up in a DNA test.


Okay, I understand what you mean. Registration wasn't important to me and the breeder made it quite clear from my first phone call with her that the sire and dam weren't registered. 


On the DNA thing -- I wouldn't DNA test my dogs. GSDs were developed as a "blend" of herding dogs. It would not be surprising to see a Belgian show up in a DNA test.[/QUOTE] --- this is what I believe too yet I'm seeing people say that they did get 100% GDS on Embark DNA tests. The Belgian and herding group are showing up way back in the DNA test -- 5th generation or more.

My own dog, which I purchased from her, shares the same sire and a different dam. Dam wasn't registered either. He looks like 100% GSD and sure acts like one LOL.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I'm sorry but I don't understand your point? Can you please explain what you mean?


Certainly. Individuals may differ, but I would not have gotten a pup/dog from this 'breeder.' Frankly, I’d also be very hesitant about helping this ‘breeder’ (veteran or no) in the current situation. There are far too many red flags. For example, the odds of encountering a 19 yo 'grandsire,' without pedigree and in "good health" are fairly remote. If none of the dogs are papered/registered how does one know what the age actually is? If none of the dogs are papered/ registered how does one know what they actually are? A Belgian Turveren 4/5 generations back suggests a possibly creative (careless?) approach to breeding that’s more than just the coincidental overlap with other herding group representatives, generally speaking. Further, if a hypothesized shepherd only tests 75% GSD, what’s the remaining 25%? A Tuveren 4-5 generations back isn’t likely to account for the remaining 25% unless the ‘breeder’ is actively continuing the cross — in which case it isn’t a GSD. 

If you have questions about the efficacy/ reliability of Embark (or Wisdom Panel) DNA tests for GSDs, you’d do better to write the test developers/manufacturers _directly _and request statistics and other information concerning the development of said tests and how accurate/robust they are. Surveying anonymous forum members about their successes (or lack thereof) in DNA testing isn’t likely to prove helpful and is unlikely to stand up in Court in any event. Further, the ‘breeder’ has already lost Round 1; based on what you’ve posted, she seems highly likely to lose Round 2 — as well any other cases that may be in the pipeline.

Sometimes the best help one can provide to people we care for is to suggest a different (more accurate) approach to how they represent themselves and how they market the dogs they breed.

ETA. You might want to read up on the history/development of GSDs. Some of your assertions strike me as a little odd. Personally, I'd be very anxious to stay far away from this situation if any of those assertions originated with the breeder.


----------



## RoseW (Feb 18, 2016)

My GSD has come up 100% GSD through both wisdom and embark. And I know of a handful of others not on the forum whose GSDs have come back with 100%.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> On the DNA thing -- I wouldn't DNA test my dogs. GSDs were developed as a "blend" of herding dogs. It would not be surprising to see a Belgian show up in a DNA test.


That was more than 100 years ago and I don't believe Belgians were anywhere in that mix. This statement is just so mind boggling. No way will a DNA test show Belgian DNA in a GSD test unless there is recent Belgian.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

I like the idea of writing to the test makers and asking about their verification data. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

All I can tell you is that when I was looking for a GSD, several local people recommended her for her outstanding healthy family pets. They may not be registered or papered but they look and behave like GSDs. We go to the same veterinary practice and the people there also raved about her dogs. I'm delighted with my GSD and he's growing into a great dog. 

To answer the question about breeds -- 5th generation popped up 1 Belgian Turveren shepherd in the dam's lineage, and one or two generations before that was a generic "herding group" without breed identification. I don't know the company that did either test(they had 2 done) but it wasn't Embark. 

Would this still make the current dog NOT a GSD if it had less than 12-15% other herding/shepherd that far back in the DNA?

I'm sorry if my questions are stupid. I'm new to this. I've only owned shelter rescues, including a rescued GSD, before I got my current dog. I absolutely love my (non registered, non papered) GSD and he's the right dog for me. I love learning about pedigrees and breeding but am new to the GSD world. And I hate the fact that the plaintiffs were able to get their money and keep the dog even though they had nothing in writing promising a "pure" GSD, they saw the parent dogs, they had the same opportunity to check references etc....but now suddenly, 18 months later, they sue and get to keep dogs and get money back. That doesn't seem right to me.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Without registration papers and pedigrees it's anyone's guess whether or not the pups were purebred. If the breeder has no information about her breeding dogs (no registration papers, no traceable pedigrees etc.) but claimed the pups were purebred she misled the buyers. Having said that, I am surprised the court allowed DNA test results from Embark or whoever to be used as evidence because the AKC, FCI registries etc. do not use this kind of testing to determine whether or not a dog is purebred. 

Major registries only require a dog to have 3 generations of pure breed behind it before calling the 4th generation a "purebred" dog. FCI registries use an appendix, the AKC uses conditional registration for this purpose. DNA testing is only used to determine parentage, not breed. Granted most established breeds will have test results (Embark etc.) that come back as the breed we think they are, but having other breeds pop up doesn't mean the dog being tested isn't considered a purebred dog. It's all about registrations and pedigrees. 

Bottom line...you can't go around telling people you have purebred puppies to sell when you have no idea whether they're purebred or not. It's dishonest.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> All I can tell you is that when I was looking for a GSD, several local people recommended her for her outstanding healthy family pets. They may not be registered or papered but they look and behave like GSDs. We go to the same veterinary practice and the people there also raved about her dogs. I'm delighted with my GSD and he's growing into a great dog.


Here's the thing...this isn't about what kind of dogs she's producing. They could be wonderful dogs, wonderful pets, healthy as all get out. The problem is she appears to be selling them under false pretense. She's claiming they're purebred GSD's when they may not be. 



Jeanne Grunert said:


> And I hate the fact that the plaintiffs were able to get their money and keep the dog even though they had nothing in writing promising a "pure" GSD, they saw the parent dogs, they had the same opportunity to check references etc....but now suddenly, 18 months later, they sue and get to keep dogs and get money back. That doesn't seem right to me.


Maybe a case of believing they paid pure breed price for mixed breed puppies?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I like the idea of writing to the test makers and asking about their verification data. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
> 
> All I can tell you is that when I was looking for a GSD, several local people recommended her for her outstanding healthy family pets. They may not be registered or papered but they look and behave like GSDs. We go to the same veterinary practice and the people there also raved about her dogs. I'm delighted with my GSD and he's growing into a great dog.
> 
> ...


I don't know where you live. In Canada it is a violation of the Animal Pedigree Act to sell or represent an animal as purebred if it is not eligible for registration. 
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/s...t/rsc-1985-c-8-4th-supp.html#Offences__102528


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm learning all sorts of things from this thread. Thanks.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. She never tells people they are getting 'purebred German shepherds' and she doesn't advertise. I think the people believed that is what they were getting. I've never heard or seen anything to indicate she pushes them as purebreds etc.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

Thank you to everyone who responded. You've all been incredibly helpful and I appreciate it.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, if she says German Shepherd puppies, anyone will believe they are not mutts, but purebred dogs. 
How much is she charging?


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

I think that's the question though, isn't it? A mutt (to me) is a dog of mixed parentage. Both parents are GSD. Other breeds crop up 5 or more generations back. Does that make it a mutt or GSD? Another person said that most breed registries look for 3 generations only.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

What was the court's actual finding?

Misrepresentation.... ? Fraudulent misrepresentation.... ?


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

Great question and I am not sure. I think the judge took a look at the plaintiff's DNA test and since it did not say 100% GSD she ruled in their favor.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> Great question and I am not sure. I think the judge took a look at the plaintiff's DNA test and since it did not say 100% GSD she ruled in their favor.


I'd ask what the actual ruling was. 

If it went to court - not just a settlement - you might be able to look it up online, depending on where you live. 

The actual ruling will probably clarify quite a bit about the situation.


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I think that's the question though, isn't it? A mutt (to me) is a dog of mixed parentage. Both parents are GSD. Other breeds crop up 5 or more generations back. Does that make it a mutt or GSD? Another person said that most breed registries look for 3 generations only.


That is the very definition of a mixed breed (mutt) dog. My purebred dogs have pedigrees that can be traced back so far I've never even bothered - EVERY dog in their pedigree IS/WAS purebred from two purebred parents...there are no "anything else" thrown-in anywhere. 5 generations, 10 generation, 15 or 2 generations back.... it isn't just about the parents of the dog (who in her case are not GSDs - they may look and act like them {which I doubt because they are not being bred to the standard in anyway} - it's about whether they actually ARE.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I think that's the question though, isn't it? A mutt (to me) is a dog of mixed parentage. Both parents are GSD. Other breeds crop up 5 or more generations back. Does that make it a mutt or GSD? Another person said that most breed registries look for 3 generations only.


Both parents are part GSD! Their puppies are mutts...

The plaintiffs in a law suit could not have won if the dogs had been marketed and sold as mixed breed, whether in writing or not!

That being said, I don't think it's possible to end up with 12.5% Belgian Tuveren from a single ancestor 5 generations back, so there's more to the story...


I don't particularly agree that they should be able to get a full refund AND keep the dogs. But nobody asked me...


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> Yes, you hit the nail on the head. She never tells people they are getting 'purebred German shepherds' and she doesn't advertise. I think the people believed that is what they were getting. I've never heard or seen anything to indicate she pushes them as purebreds etc.


If she is selling them as German Shepherds then she is representing them as purebred. Misrepresentation is by word or deed. Omission or commission. 
If you say to me that you are looking for a purple jacket and I say I am selling a jacket that would be perfect and then send you an orange jacket it's deliberate misrepresentation and I can be legally forced to refund your money.
There is a reason that many shelters, rescues and stores sell dogs as "type". I live in Canada and ran a rescue for years. I listed our dogs as German Shepherd type dogs if no cross was evident. My current dog looks like a GSD. No other breed is evident in her appearance, so I would have listed her as a female GSD type. This indicates to purchasers that I am not claiming or representing that she is purebred.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I like the idea of writing to the test makers and asking about their verification data. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
> ...
> I'm sorry if my questions are stupid. I'm new to this. I've only owned shelter rescues, including a rescued GSD, before I got my current dog. I absolutely love my (non registered, non papered) GSD and he's the right dog for me. I love learning about pedigrees and breeding but am new to the GSD world. And I hate the fact that the plaintiffs were able to get their money and keep the dog even though they had nothing in writing promising a "pure" GSD, they saw the parent dogs, they had the same opportunity to check references etc....but now suddenly, 18 months later, they sue and get to keep dogs and get money back. That doesn't seem right to me.



Courts make decisions that often seem unfair/not right to laypeople unfamiliar with the law. Bottomline is that you don't know how she's representing these dogs/puppies unless you are present for and/or actively monitoring every single communication she has/had with potential buyers. As I understand it, unless she has pedigrees on her dogs going back 5+ generations which show them ALL to be purebred GSDs, she can't legally claim them to be GSDs. They might be wonderful dogs, but she can't claim them to be GSDs. 

Breed standards rely on more than word of mouth among satisfied/happy clients. That several local people describe her dogs as "healthy family pets" doesn't make them anymore likely to be a GSD than a Bichon Frise or a Cocker Spaniel. It's about _genetics _(that is, highly heritable characteristics such as physical appearance, temperament, intelligence and personality, for example, which distinguish different dog breeds). That is why, for example, multi-generation pedigrees are so important. (FWIW 5 generations back ain't that far; depending on the dogs, it could well be only 20 years ago). So, any other breed that close in a given dog's pedigree bespeaks careless practices in my book or a breeder trying to create some kind of designer dog. 

Your questions are not stupid, but they do strike me as more than a little naive. I'd suggest reading up on GSD history, especially the development of the breed, to understand why some of these issues are so critical.

ETA. This strikes me as very messy situation from which you'd do well to keep your distance. Unless, of course, in future, you discover that your dog has developed a highly heritable condition which may impact his lifespan and/or quality of life. Then you'll have some difficult decisions to make.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> ... GSDs were developed as a "blend" of herding dogs. It would not be surprising to see a Belgian show up in a DNA test.


I would most certainly be surprised; it shouldn't be there...


----------



## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> Their vet told them the dogs weren't German shepherds because they have long coats and they went back to the breeder to complain.


Several thoughts:

That's the reason the vets said they weren't GSDs?! The long coats?! As far as I know there are 3 or 4 different coats that GSDs have and "long coat" is one of them. I mean, in this case, the vets were right but I think they just got lucky.

When the buyers didn't get papers for their dogs, they should've known. That alone negates the "keep the dog AND get the refund" ruling, in my view. The judge is wrong and probably not a dog owner.

I'm assuming the breeder is a BYB, because there's no way a reputable breeder would've used another dog with questionable background, not to mention sell dogs without papers.

Belgian Turverens are pretty distinct to anyone who has some knowledge of dog breeds. But to most people, they can't tell the difference between a Turveren and a GSD long coat. I can't count the times my previous long coated GSD was mistaken for a Turveren. I've also seen some non-show-quality Turverens that look like GSDs. So since I'm assuming the breeder is a BYB and giving him/her the benefit of the doubt that they weren't deliberately committing fraud, then he/she couldn't tell that the dog he/she used in that line was a Turveren. But at the end of the day, the breeder didn't sell the dogs with papers. So, at what point, should the buyer take some responsibility for the purchase? I hope y'all understand where I'm leading this. Didn't explain it too well. It's late.

Can we get a picture of these dogs in question?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I think that's the question though, isn't it? A mutt (to me) is a dog of mixed parentage. Both parents are GSD. Other breeds crop up 5 or more generations back. Does that make it a mutt or GSD? Another person said that most breed registries look for 3 generations only.


It makes it a high content mutt. If the dog 25% Mastiff instead of a dog that looks similar and is in the same category, would you still ask the question?


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I think that's the question though, isn't it? A mutt (to me) is a dog of mixed parentage. Both parents are GSD. Other breeds crop up 5 or more generations back. Does that make it a mutt or GSD? Another person said that most breed registries look for 3 generations only.


Absent a bonafide (e.g., AKC) pedigree for each parent _and _given what you've described thus far, you do not _know _that the parents are GSDs. Breeders 'prove' their assertions of a dog's breed by providing its' pedigree. In the present scenario, both parents would be considered mutts and so would any resulting offspring. Now, that may not matter to you and that is fine, but they can't be honestly/legally be labeled as GSDs nor sold as such --- no matter how many positive reviews the breeder may have garnered for her efforts. What's she's producing would be considered mutts/crossbreds. The presence of a Belgian Tervuren 5 generations back (and how does one really know that?) underscores this point.

ETA. Just saw Jax's post above. We're saying the same thing.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> The plaintiffs in a law suit could not have won if the dogs had been marketed and sold as mixed breed, whether in writing or not!


Tim's point is right on the money...


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

Aly said:


> Absent a bonafide (e.g., AKC) pedigree for each parent _and _given what you've described thus far, you do not _know _that the parents are GSDs. Breeders 'prove' their assertions of a dog's breed by providing its' pedigree. In the present scenario, both parents would be considered mutts and so would any resulting offspring. Now, that may not matter to you and that is fine, but they can't be honestly/legally be labeled as GSDs nor sold as such --- no matter how many positive reviews the breeder may have garnered for her efforts. What's she's producing would be considered mutts/crossbreds. The presence of a Belgian Tervuren 5 generations back (and how does one really know that?) underscores this point.
> 
> ETA. Just saw Jax's post above. We're saying the same thing.



I understand what everyone is saying and agree....without a pedigree you do not know what you are buying other than "what you see is what you get."


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

tc68 said:


> Several thoughts:
> 
> That's the reason the vets said they weren't GSDs?! The long coats?! As far as I know there are 3 or 4 different coats that GSDs have and "long coat" is one of them. I mean, in this case, the vets were right but I think they just got lucky.
> 
> ...


I tried to upload it and it wouldn't show.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> It makes it a high content mutt. If the dog 25% Mastiff instead of a dog that looks similar and is in the same category, would you still ask the question?


I'm still stuck on my original question which is DNA. How reliable are the DNA tests in the absence of pedigree?

We've established that the dogs in question don't have pedigrees or registration...they "look" like German shepherds but that doesn't tell us much, I guess. How reliable are DNA tests to establish the purity of breeding on a dog?


----------



## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I tried to upload it and it wouldn't show.


You need a certain post count to upload pictures easily. I'm not sure what the required post count is but I don't think it's that high. 

I would also like to see a pick of these dogs.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I'm still stuck on my original question which is DNA. How reliable are the DNA tests in the absence of pedigree??


unless there is a scientist on the board, you’re best bet will be to contact or research the companies directly to gain the most accurate information as far as their process and accuracy. several people have mentioned that their dogs HAVE come back as 100% GSD - both papered and unpapered dogs. not sure what more we can provide. as far as i know, the companies that run the tests (embark and wisdom) are only able to go back as far as purebred dogs in the last three generations. if your dog is mixed farther back, that’s generally where the small “breed group” or “supermutt” percentages come in. if another purebred shows up - it’s recent.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

One thing. You said the parent dogs tested as 87.5% GSD. So they both did as in they're siblings/related or they both just happen to be roughly the exact same percentage of mix? Puppy can't be 75% mix unless one of the parents is at least 25% mix meaning one of the Grandparents is a 50% mix. Or if both parents are mixed. No way can they not know both parents are mixed with Belgian teruvren unless it's on purpose or they're inbred and both related to the same mixed dog. 

As the breeds are similar and mixed dogs can be hard to tell it's possible a person could buy a dog and not know it's mixed if they aren't familiar with the breed or they're just that poorly bred. But without papers it's more likely they're just mixed.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I honestly feel like there’s a lot you don’t know. If there was no contract, how would a judge be able to help anyone? The dogs not being purebred wouldn’t matter if there was no contract stating the dogs were purebred. And you said multiple times that the breeder never said they were purebred, so I think you’re missing information. If it truly went to court, a judge would not have ruled in their favor without strong evidence. I don’t *believe* a DNA test from Embark would count, but I guess it could, depending on the judge. I don’t know. Something about this whole thing is fishy.


----------



## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

I used Embark. Rex did not come with papers. Came back 100% GSD all the way up his "tree"

Best


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> I honestly feel like there’s a lot you don’t know. If there was no contract, how would a judge be able to help anyone? The dogs not being purebred wouldn’t matter if there was no contract stating the dogs were purebred. And you said multiple times that the breeder never said they were purebred, so I think you’re missing information. If it truly went to court, a judge would not have ruled in their favor without strong evidence. I don’t *believe* a DNA test from Embark would count, but I guess it could, depending on the judge. I don’t know. Something about this whole thing is fishy.


One of my rescues was DNA tested, by her owners because I really don't care. 100% GSD.

To the OP. Not going to get into it unless you want to PM me. Glad you have the dog you wanted but there is way more to the story. My unasked for advice? Love your dog, buy insurance and steer clear of this mess with the breeder.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I'm still stuck on my original question which is DNA. How reliable are the DNA tests in the absence of pedigree?


DNA testing for breed is becoming more reliable all the time. (Embark, Mars, Wisdom etc.) The data used to identify clusters of genetic markers that differentiate one breed from another are gathered using DNA from purebred registered/pedigreed dogs. (that's how important those papers are!) The more dogs they test within a breed, the more accurate the data becomes.

If the breeder you're talking about really believes her dogs are purebred, just not papered, she can submit DNA to the AKC and see if she gets a hit for sire or dam. As an example, if she believes her breeding female had pure GSD parents, she should submit that females DNA to the AKC. If one of that females parents were also DNA tested it will be in the AKC database and she'll get a match...then she can work forward. 

Again, the AKC tests for parentage NOT breed. (I know it's confusing)


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I understand what everyone is saying and agree....without a pedigree you do not know what you are buying other than "what you see is what you get."


If you're lucky. I agree with @Sabis mom: buy health insurance on your dog, enjoy your companion and steer clear of this potential mess.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pytheis said:


> I honestly feel like there’s a lot you don’t know. If there was no contract, how would a judge be able to help anyone? The dogs not being purebred wouldn’t matter if there was no contract stating the dogs were purebred. And you said multiple times that the breeder never said they were purebred, so I think you’re missing information. If it truly went to court, a judge would not have ruled in their favor without strong evidence. I don’t *believe* a DNA test from Embark would count, but I guess it could, depending on the judge. I don’t know. Something about this whole thing is fishy.


Agree. Anything can happen in court but, at least in my opinion, buying a dog without papers, most likely at a price lower than from a good breeder, brings inherent risk. So there must be something in writing that states these dogs are purebred in order for them to have proved their case.

If you are happy with your dog then it's not your circus.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> ... So there must be something in writing that states these dogs are purebred in order for them to have proved their case.


Not a lawyer, but if, in ads, a contract or any form of written communication, the 'breeder' referred to her dogs as German Shepherds --- _without _qualification (e.g., GSD mix or GSD type) --- the reasonable assumption would be that they are purebred. Which may be why the plaintiff won the case and promptly brought a second one.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

I really appreciate the responses. I've forwarded what I could to the breeder and am indeed stepping out...not my monkeys, not my circus, or maybe not my dogs not my circus?

In any event, I love my (non papered, non pedigreed, possible mutt-mix) German shepherd. He's a treasure at 5 months and I'm enjoying every step of the way. 

Thank you for the information, education, and thoughtful posts!

Jeanne (the OP)


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> In any event, I love my (non papered, non pedigreed, possible mutt-mix) German shepherd. He's a treasure at 5 months and I'm enjoying every step of the way.


As it should be! I think it's important for you to understand that people aren't implying that if someone asks what kind of dog you have that you owe them some long explanation about it's DNA showing another breed or that your dog isn't a good one. The issue is with the breeder, not you or your dog.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> I really appreciate the responses. I've forwarded what I could to the breeder and am indeed stepping out...not my monkeys, not my circus, or maybe not my dogs not my circus?
> 
> In any event, I love my (non papered, non pedigreed, possible mutt-mix) German shepherd. He's a treasure at 5 months and I'm enjoying every step of the way.
> 
> ...


I hope none of us were implying that you shouldn't be in love with your dog! I know I wasn't. The dog I have now is a genetic nightmare, lol. And could not be more loved. And my beloved Saboteur had no pedigree behind her and proved to be the best dog I ever had the privilege of putting hands on. Saved my life and is missed desperately with every breath. 
Please provide us with pictures of your boy when you can and do stick around.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

No worries! I learn so much from this forum. I'll be here learning and growing with you!


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Jeanne Grunert said:


> No worries! I learn so much from this forum. I'll be here learning and growing with you!


Good to hear! We'd still love to see pictures!

And, FYI, there is no post count requirement to post pictures. Lots of folks include a picture with their first post.

To post a picture, scroll down and select the "go advanced" button below the text entry box. Then scroll down again until you see a "manage attachments" button and select that. A new window will open that will allow you to select the photo, then press upload and close the window when it's done uploading. Select the "preview" button and you should see your photo.


----------



## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> Good to hear! We'd still love to see pictures!
> 
> And, FYI, there is no post count requirement to post pictures. Lots of folks include a picture with their first post.
> 
> To post a picture, scroll down and select the "go advanced" button below the text entry box. Then scroll down again until you see a "manage attachments" button and select that. A new window will open that will allow you to select the photo, then press upload and close the window when it's done uploading. Select the "preview" button and you should see your photo.


Thank you, Tim, for correcting my mistake about a post count and giving instructions. I agree that I would love to see a picture about the dog we've been hearing such good things about.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Fodder said:


> Yes, I know of 3 GSD (2 are board members) who have gotten results of 100% GSD using Embark.


One is me! I didn't have any doubts about breed, I thought the health testing would be interesting and when the test went on sale I grabbed it. I had Cava tested around the end of last year.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If the vet had never mentioned it, everyone involved would have been happy.


----------



## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> If the vet had never mentioned it, everyone involved would have been happy.


Yeah exactly. Good point. The vet is questionable to me too. According to the OP, the vet said the dog couldn't be a GSD because it had a long coat. The vet has obviously never seen long coated GSDs then. The OP is fine and I hope he/she sticks around these forums. But that whole story/situation is fishy...from the vet, to the breeder, to the judge, to the court case, to the litigious unsatisfied owners....it's all strange.

The thing that bothers me the most (and there's a lot in this situation that bothers me) is the fact that the owners got BOTH the dogs AND the refund. So they get 2 free dogs and a refund. Even if the breeder knowingly committed fraud, I don't think the owner deserved both.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> One is me! I didn't have any doubts about breed, I thought the health testing would be interesting and when the test went on sale I grabbed it. I had Cava tested around the end of last year.


And the results said what? Was it embark?


----------



## zeyad (Sep 17, 2019)

just wanted to wish the OP best of luck and hope we get to see some pics


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

tc68 said:


> Yeah exactly. Good point. The vet is questionable to me too. According to the OP, the vet said the dog couldn't be a GSD because it had a long coat. The vet has obviously never seen long coated GSDs then. The OP is fine and I hope he/she sticks around these forums. But that whole story/situation is fishy...from the vet, to the breeder, to the judge, to the court case, to the litigious unsatisfied owners....it's all strange.
> 
> The thing that bothers me the most (and there's a lot in this situation that bothers me) is the fact that the owners got BOTH the dogs AND the refund. So they get 2 free dogs and a refund. Even if the breeder knowingly committed fraud, I don't think the owner deserved both.


Yes, well the (inappropriately chatty IMO) vet may have known about the Tervuren in the proverbial woodpile, among other things... 

And, until we get a copy of the actual judgement, we have no idea on what basis the judge reached her/his decision. We might be very surprised...


----------



## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

My rescue Heidi tested through EMBARK came back 100% GSD.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

The DNA test was done AFTER the vet's comments. They'd owned the dog for 18 months without questioning it.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

I don't have pictures of the dogs in question - sorry. I can, however, share a picture of MY dog who is a half-sibling (same sire). So guys, here is my 4 1/2 month old dog, Zeke. I'm very tall so the angle is a little off but yes, he's huge (45 pounds at his 4 month checkup). And smart as a whip. Okay, I'm bragging. Love him to pieces. He may have a Belgian tervuren in the background somewhere or a "misc herding group" in the 6th or whatever generation back but to me, he's a gorgeous GSD type, papers or no, and I'm delighted with him.


----------



## Jeanne Grunert (Oct 24, 2019)

> And, until we get a copy of the actual judgement, we have no idea on what basis the judge reached her/his decision. We might be very surprised...



The county in which the small claims court case was heard does not post judgments online. I looked on their website.

Either way...all I wanted to know was about the DNA test and many people kindly shared their responses. So the consensus is: yes, a GSD can test 100% GSD on a DNA test, Embark seems to be the test of choice, and if a dog is not registered or has papers, it cannot be marketed or described as German shepherd. The appropriate thing to say would be a German shepherd type. That's my summation of what I've learned.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

What a handsome boy! Love his bone and his expression.


----------



## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I love his dark mask. That a beautiful boy! Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

I see a ton of Chihuahua in him Just kidding he is beautiful. My guy was that weight at 4 months. Pushing 60lbs at 5 months.

Sorry to hijack with a question, Embark vs. Wisdom, is Embark that much better it's $50 bucks more? I'll do it for fun for $79, but not for $129 to find out what I already know.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

He is lovely. I would be thrilled with him as well, and on looks alone he is GSD. It does not really matter at this point does it? You have him, you love him, that is all.
My current dog is rather small so people ask me all the time if she is a German Shepherd. My pretty standard response is something along the lines of "apparently" or "so it would seem". I see no need to explain to strangers. Her records all list her as GSD, because she looks like one. No other breed is evident in her appearance. Only breeders and sellers need to concern themselves with descriptions. We just get to enjoy the dogs. 
I tracked down the breeder. I know why a judgement against her would be possible. The internet is a blessing and a curse.
Maybe dog people should take a page from horse people. Quarter horses are sold as grade or AQHA.


----------



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> He is lovely. I would be thrilled with him as well, and on looks alone he is GSD. It does not really matter at this point does it? You have him, you love him, that is all.
> My current dog is rather small so people ask me all the time if she is a German Shepherd. My pretty standard response is something along the lines of "apparently" or "so it would seem". I see no need to explain to strangers. Her records all list her as GSD, because she looks like one. No other breed is evident in her appearance. Only breeders and sellers need to concern themselves with descriptions. We just get to enjoy the dogs.
> I tracked down the breeder. I know why a judgement against her would be possible. The internet is a blessing and a curse.
> Maybe dog people should take a page from horse people. Quarter horses are sold as grade or AQHA.


I find it interesting in general how many people ask me - "What kind of dog is he?" I mean really? The long hair especially when a puppy throws some people off, but jeesh, the face is the face. I personally will devote more time to people when they say: "Wow a long haired German Shepherd". I guess a GSD is very obvious to me. If you look at my avatar, Duke on the left was short hair, I think it's pretty obvious they both are GSD's, but I personally would have expected those questions with Duke.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Frisco19 said:


> I see a ton of Chihuahua in him Just kidding he is beautiful. My guy was that weight at 4 months. Pushing 60lbs at 5 months.
> 
> Sorry to hijack with a question, Embark vs. Wisdom, is Embark that much better it's $50 bucks more? I'll do it for fun for $79, but not for $129 to find out what I already know.


I haven't done either on my dogs, but have seen the results of both. I suggest you go to their respective websites and check their breed listings! Embark has a much more complete database of breeds, and they test for nearly 200 genetic issues. So, if you want to really learn something, I strongly recommend them!


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

He’s adorable! Thanks for the picture.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Nice masculine looking pup.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> I haven't done either on my dogs, but have seen the results of both. I suggest you go to their respective websites and check their breed listings! Embark has a much more complete database of breeds, and they test for nearly 200 genetic issues. So, if you want to really learn something, I strongly recommend them!


I did Wisdom and was happy with the results. I did not want the medical info and at the time Wisdom didn’t offer health yet...
I have friends [5] who have all done Embark, one who did both test for the same dog and got more or less the same results (seems that the “guesses” that Embark provides for any unspecified % might be more accurate or at least narrowed down better)
If the prices were equal I’d choose Embark because they now have a relative locator feature that I think would have been fun!!
If I had a dog from known parentage - I wouldn’t bother with either.

ETA: you can also find these kits on sale fairly often. I think I paid $60 on national mutt day or something. Older versions (although I wouldn’t go too much older) are also available by other vendors for cheaper.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

There's a Facebook group called Dog Deals USA. Discount codes for Embark seem to pop up often, Wisdom once in a while.

GSDCA Members get a standing 40% off Paw Print Genetics, which doesn't offer "what breed is my dog" but offers quite a few health tests. 

I've had mixed results with apps that track Amazon price drops. Sometimes they work, other times not so much. But if there's no huge hurry, you can set a price alert on Wisdom and/or Embark kits on Amazon and you'll be notified if one drops below whatever threshold you set. 

I just looked and there are quite a few different Wisdom kits on Groupon. 

Lots of deals to be found, for anyone interested.


----------



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Fodder said:


> I did Wisdom and was happy with the results. I did not want the medical info and at the time Wisdom didn’t offer health yet...
> I have friends [5] who have all done Embark, one who did both test for the same dog and got more or less the same results (seems that the “guesses” that Embark provides for any unspecified % might be more accurate or at least narrowed down better)
> If the prices were equal I’d choose Embark because they now have a relative locator feature that I think would have been fun!!
> If I had a dog from known parentage - I wouldn’t bother with either.
> ...


Yeah, I don't care about the health stuff or the lineage which I have already. Just looking for something to say 100% GSD or whatever.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Frisco19 said:


> Yeah, I don't care about the health stuff or the lineage which I have already. Just looking for something to say 100% GSD or whatever.


the relative finder feature i found particularly interesting for owners of rescue dogs - my co worker found relatives with a striking resemblance to her dog, some that lived in other states, etc. that said, the relatives owner would have also had to have done the test, and mixed breed owners have a greater incentive. unless you find a stellar deal on embark, go with Wisdom.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Fodder said:


> I did Wisdom and was happy with the results. I did not want the medical info and at the time Wisdom didn’t offer health yet...
> I have friends [5] who have all done Embark, one who did both test for the same dog and got more or less the same results (seems that the “guesses” that Embark provides for any unspecified % might be more accurate or at least narrowed down better)
> If the prices were equal I’d choose Embark because they now have a relative locator feature that I think would have been fun!!
> If I had a dog from known parentage - I wouldn’t bother with either.
> ...


Interesting article comparing the 2:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/best-dog-dna-test-kit-reviews-2019_l_5cbde51be4b06605e3f18a2e

After reading your post I thought maybe Wisdom had improved more than I expected (though I did look at their database of breeds not too long ago), so I checked them out again. Wisdom lists 10 breeds of dog starting with "B", Embark has 32. Wisdom lists only 2 breeds starting with "G", GSD and Great Pyrenees, so they're missing Grate Dane, Golden Retriever, Giant Schnauzer, and Greyhound to name just a few. Embark has 17 in the "G" category. And virtually all letters I looked at were similar. I have not seen a single wisdom panel report for a mixed breed dog come back without a pretty high percentage of "unknown". But yeah, if all your looking for is confirmation that your dog is 100% GSD or not, Wisdom would do that.


----------



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Fodder said:


> the relative finder feature i found particularly interesting for owners of rescue dogs - my co worker found relatives with a striking resemblance to her dog, some that lived in other states, etc. that said, the relatives owner would have also had to have done the test, and mixed breed owners have a greater incentive. unless you find a stellar deal on embark, go with Wisdom.




I think I will for $79 bucks. In terms of his relatives, I know most of them. This is only the breeders second litter and we all have a Facebook group. Beyond his sisters and brother and parents, the rest are in west Germany.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Frisco19 said:


> Yeah, I don't care about the health stuff or the lineage which I have already. Just looking for something to say 100% GSD or whatever.


.

You have the lineage. So you know he's 100% GSD. Why spend the money?


----------



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> You have the lineage. So you know he's 100% GSD. Why spend the money?




I don’t know! Sounds pretty cool but guess you’re right.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

OP- stock coat dogs CAN have long coat and plush coat as well as stock coat if it's in their backgrounds, and still be purebred, and registered with AKC or CKC. 

My CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) registered GSD Ellie, couldn't be shown (in conformation) because she's long coated, but she is purebred and registered. 


Long coat is recessive genetically, but if two parents carry it, there will be some long coats in litters. Should be around 25% I believe...
My long haired puppy--both her parents are stock coats with huge ears, and had 2 long coats in last litter--Daisy my profile pic, is one of them. No Turvuren in the woodpile of either of these dogs, or in Ellie's family tree. 

Daisy's just getting her coat as she's a bit shy of 6 months, I think based on her ear tufts it will be quite long. We'll see in a month give or take. 



Your pup's lovely, and if you like him, that's all that matters.


----------



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Yeah I really didn’t get the vet saying the other GSDs in the lawsuit aren’t GSDs because they are long coat?

So my dogs parents are both long coat. All the pups from the littler are long coat. Could some have been stock?


----------



## Bystander (Nov 4, 2013)

*Ridiculous Expectations*

Frankly, if a buyer is obsessed with purity, then why would he or she buy a GSD without papers? Silly. I am surprised that a judge ruled in favor on that point alone. If a buyer wants pure bred, buy a dog with a registered pedigree. My GSD’s DNA is on file with AKC in the event anyone questions whether he is the sire of a particular pup, but not for assessing “purity.” He has a pedigree for such debates. My GSD is a pure bred with the long hair gene. The only time I could see the breeder being liable would be due to falsified documents or other fraud related to registration. Case dismissed....move on.:grin2: Obviously, I am not a judge.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> Interesting article comparing the 2:
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/best-dog-dna-test-kit-reviews-2019_l_5cbde51be4b06605e3f18a2e
> 
> After reading your post I thought maybe Wisdom had improved more than I expected (though I did look at their database of breeds not too long ago), so I checked them out again. Wisdom lists 10 breeds of dog starting with "B", Embark has 32. Wisdom lists only 2 breeds starting with "G", GSD and Great Pyrenees, so they're missing Grate Dane, Golden Retriever, Giant Schnauzer, and Greyhound to name just a few. Embark has 17 in the "G" category. And virtually all letters I looked at were similar. I have not seen a single wisdom panel report for a mixed breed dog come back without a pretty high percentage of "unknown". But yeah, if all your looking for is confirmation that your dog is 100% GSD or not, Wisdom would do that.


i have no idea where or what list you checked, but see the attached screenshot, which is directly from their website...
i can also let you know that my dog came back as 3 breeds and no unknown percentage... Embark returned one of my co workers dogs as 6 different breeds plus 42.6% supermutt :shrug:


----------



## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Any geneticists happen to be in the crowd? When we buy a pup, we see it first and usually the dam of the litter. Beyond that it is breeder reputation but bottom line, if you don't plan on breeding have the dog neutered and it makes no difference whether it is 95% or 75% - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is likely a duck. But what kind of duck?.......
GSD's in some of the early pictures look like a cross between a wolf and a coyote. What they have developed into is a beautiful and well balanced dog that is loyal, intelligent, and capable of reason and somewhat complex cognitive processes. If what they bought exhibit those qualities, then what would they complain about. If they wanted to breed, they should know enough about the breed to choose a pup and know what they are getting. That doesn't sound like the case and they have no business trying to breed and sell pups. It doesn't sound like the judge understood that either.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

tim_s_adams said:


> And the results said what? Was it embark?


See below  



Fodder said:


> Yes, I know of 3 GSD (2 are board members) *who have gotten results of 100% GSD using Embark.*





Cassidy's Mom said:


> *One is me!* I didn't have any doubts about breed, I thought the health testing would be interesting and when the test went on sale I grabbed it. I had Cava tested around the end of last year.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Fodder said:


> i have no idea where or what list you checked, but see the attached screenshot, which is directly from their website...
> i can also let you know that my dog came back as 3 breeds and no unknown percentage... Embark returned one of my co workers dogs as 6 different breeds plus 42.6% supermutt :shrug:


Good catch! I was on the Wisdom Panel website, but I looked in the wrong spot! I was looking through the sample report they show, and then clicked the link on breeds analysed, then on herding breeds...hence the short list. Sorry for the misinformation! It looks like Wisdom has definitely improved their database of breeds covered.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

coolgsd said:


> Any geneticists happen to be in the crowd? When we buy a pup, we see it first and usually the dam of the litter. Beyond that it is breeder reputation but bottom line, if you don't plan on breeding have the dog neutered and it makes no difference whether it is 95% or 75% - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is likely a duck. But what kind of duck?.......
> GSD's in some of the early pictures look like a cross between a wolf and a coyote. What they have developed into is a beautiful and well balanced dog that is loyal, intelligent, and capable of reason and somewhat complex cognitive processes. If what they bought exhibit those qualities, then what would they complain about. If they wanted to breed, they should know enough about the breed to choose a pup and know what they are getting. That doesn't sound like the case and they have no business trying to breed and sell pups. It doesn't sound like the judge understood that either.


I specialize in chicken (and certain finches and colour canaries) coat pattern and color genetics which is complicated--they have a lot of different coats and patterns, also sexual dimorphism (characteristics where males have one colour and pattern, and females have another) which we get in birds, but rarely in mammals. Mostly it was "How do I make a____?" Say, a crele coloured bird. There are several ways to do it, both right, but one is more correct. 

We were lucky to have the geneticist who mapped the chicken genome on our board way back when, so he taught us all a huge amount. 

I remember reading this once. In "theory" you can take one breed, and in 7 generations have turned it as close to another breed (99%, but can never be 100%) as possible. I'll use horses as I started with a registered 1/2 Arabian mare. That 1/2 Arabian horse--bred to a purebred Arabian stallion, gave me a 3/4 Arabian mare. Bred to pure again (hypothetical, I never managed to get her in foal), you'd get 7/8ths pure, bred to pure again you get 15/16ths pure, nearly purebred. Now, with horses this would take many, many years, but in chickens, you can do it in as little as 7 years. 

That's theoretical only because there are always unknown modifiers that can set you back. In my buff Brahma chickens, back at least 4 gens someone crossed a white Brahma male to fix some traits in the Buffs. So, my pure buff birds started cropping up white females down the line. Even this year, 4 years later, I had a couple mixed white chicks. They are always small, never particularly healthy, and never lived over a year. Not sure why. Wish Dr. O was still around to ask. 

I don't know anything about breeding dogs, but I remember asking and never getting a correct answer as to why Shiloh Shepherds were supposedly bred since the 70s but still have not become a pure breed? (Answer- their stud books are still open, you can breed Husky in or Chihuahua if you want...)

Sorry that was a long reply and meandered all over the spectrum.


----------



## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

My GSD came back 100% German Shepherd.

Like Cassidy’s Mom, I never doubted breed. I was checking some esoteric health issues.

One of my beagles was tested as part of a large national beagle breeder cohort and she came back 100% beagle.

Both of them were tested by Embark. I also tested my mixed breed dog with Wisdom Panel in 2013, and believe the results are accurate ( for example, it said my dog is 50% Samoyed, which I didn’t expect, although I knew she was a herding dog; she has a Northern coat, yappy bark, propensity to run, and a grin. But my veterinarian looked down at her toes and said “oh yeah, she has Samoyed toes,” which I didn’t even realize were a thing). She also came back as heeler & GSD which are obvious behaviorally as well as in her appearance and make sense.

I don’t know. I think with rarer breeds, this might be harder to pin down, but I know I was was mailing my purebreds dogs’ DNA to UC Davis years ago so they could build a database for health research. We included pedigrees when we sent cheek swabs in. (I’m sure these databases were made available to other vet schools like Cornell.) 

I tend to think the databases are accurate as far as breed is concerned.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I just got an email from Embark with coupons for their lowest prices of the year, according to them. It's what I paid when I did the test and I have never seen the price lower than that, so this might be a good opportunity for anyone who wants to try it. Just breed is $99, breed plus 170+ health conditions is $129. That's $70 off the original price. 

Codes are breed: *VIPB85W7L5XR 
*
Breed + health: *VIPH8S4J4VWW*


----------

