# ME: Ragnar / Sable Male / 11mo old / Czech WL



## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Being rehomed by owner: Czech Working Lines 11 months very high prey drive seeking expert handler…located in private home.

Very high prey drive, affectionate adaptable and very well trained in obedience, by Massachusetts State Police K9 Unit trainer, bred by Maine State Trooper K-9 unit breeder; a Czech Working Line pure bred German Shepherd contact me if you are interested in this rescue.

I would drive across the country for this dog. But we are over our heads with this Czech Working Line (our Mass State Police trainer says we “gave him too much freedom” it’s not that we were not warned—by him—of that in advance; it’s our failure ). He’s 11 months and my husband (who has had a heart attack) got in the way of a fight with our unneutered standard poodle that sent my husband to the emergency room and he’s “done”. The 12 year old Pom has severe puncture wounds. The breeder has been contacted as he requested he’s “putting the word out” but he “has no room right now”.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

And the Vermont SP may also take the dog......

I would contact breeder again and tell him the situation - and that your husband is considering euthanasia

Too many people buy strong working line dogs who are not prepared for them.....too many breeders breed without true knowledge or a working outlet for the puppies.


Lee


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

Thanks for putting the word out. Not sure how to put the word out to police agencies but it sounds like that's where he would be happiest. Have luck.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

I googled about and found this article with a few suggestions:





How to Donate a Dog for Law Enforcement


Law enforcement agencies may accept a donated canine patrol dog with the right qualities and a good recommendation.




animals.mom.com




It would seem the owner should go through a trainer and have the dog evaluated for police work. And a suggestion to contact search & rescue teams. 
But it seems most agencies get their dogs directly from Europe or through trainers.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Beautiful area to have that dog, I'm sorry its not working out but perhaps not the best chance for success with the current dogs.


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Buckelke said:


> I googled about and found this article with a few suggestions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The breeder is a trainer (for the police!!) and he has already been evaluated for police work and he is not police material according to two different trainers the other is with the Massachusetts State Police. He worked with Ragnar since he was small . The two people mentioned above have also put the word out in law enforcement and retired law enforcement circles; they are actively working on it too; I am reaching out to a tiny minority of people who understand Czech Working Lines.thank you for your understanding and suggestions I appreciate it


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

m2mtalcott said:


> The breeder is a trainer (for the police!!) and he has already been evaluated for police work and he is not police material according to two different trainers the other is with the Massachusetts State Police. He worked with Ragnar since he was small . The two people mentioned above have also put the word out in law enforcement and retired law enforcement circles; they are working; I am reaching out to a tiny minority of people who understand Czech Working Lines.thank you for your understanding and suggestions I appreciate it


That is an interesting assessment. Why is it they said he was unsuitable for police work? Can you describe his temperament beyond high prey drive? How is he with strangers? How does he handle new environments or strange surfaces? How is he with other dogs or around children? What training has he actually had? Is it just pet obedience? Do you have his pedigree?


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> That is an interesting assessment. Why is it they said he was unsuitable for police work? Can you describe his temperament beyond high prey drive? How is he with strangers? How does he handle new environments or strange surfaces? How is he with other dogs or around children? What training has he actually had? Is it just pet obedience? Do you have his pedigree?


I am not doing this publicly. I just put some information out to attract help from people truly familiar with Working Lines. If you are someone associated with police work and / or very experienced handling working lines particularly Czech then please PM me . He is very well socialized is good around everyone. If you want to get the assessments I received I am happy to give it to you in pm. But first I would also like to ask you some questions the web is awash with “experts”. This is not my first rodeo “obedience” “children” “strange surfaces”… he’s well trained and wonderful with everyone. He just sends people to the hospital once in a while. Talk to you soon


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

There is a group called Throwaway dogs project out of PA/NJ area. If has a reasonable nerves and environmentals that might be an option. Could be single purpose only if not a real strong dog. Many dogs wash out of dual purpose but can still do bombs or drugs. They may have ideas or contacts. Sounds like he is not a good fit for typical family pet.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

m2mtalcott said:


> But first I would also like to ask you some questions the web is awash with “experts”. This is not my first rodeo “obedience” “children” “strange surfaces”… he’s well trained and wonderful with everyone. He just sends people to the hospital once in a while. Talk to you soon


I respect that you are doing your due diligence in asking questions and that you don't know any of us. I respect that you would rather keep the information private instead of having everyone chime in with opinions on an evaluation. But we are trying to help you. So maybe be a little less abrasive when responding. 

I sent you a PM, yesterday or the day before, asking for a pedigree and offering possible places in New England that could do an evaluation, obviously they will want to do their own evaluation as they should, and possibly help you place him. And you did not respond. So again, I'll just ask for his pedigree so I can see it and maybe suggest it to my contacts in the sport and LEO world. 

Personally, I think trying to rehome a dog that will "just sends people to the hospital once in a while" on a pet forum is completely irresponsible.


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## MeishasMom (Nov 12, 2021)

You may not like what I have to say and that is fine, but if the Mass State Police trainer said you gave him to much freedom (what ever that means) and he sent your husband to the hospital you are going to have a hard time rehoming him. As much as I would hate to see it happen you may just have to euthanize him. 

There are very experienced GSD handlers on here who it appears have given you advice or suggestions, but it seems to me that you don't want to acknowledge them. 

I'm curious as to why you and your husband choose a Czech WL GSD was there a specific reason for it? My understanding is and some please correct me if I am wrong that the Czech line are very prey driven which I think is why K-9 departments like them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MeishasMom said:


> I'm curious as to why you and your husband choose a Czech WL GSD was there a specific reason for it? My understanding is and some please correct me if I am wrong that the Czech line are very prey driven which I think is why K-9 departments like them.


Czech lines have a lot of aggression and suspicion and can be thin nerved. The dogs I know that police are buying are not that. They are stable with appropriate aggression. They do not like dog aggression either. They need dogs that can be controlled. The dogs I know are not a "line". They are dogs that can do the job. Police do not care about pedigrees as a general rule so I'm actually surprised that a whole state has a breeding program of dogs that were bred to hunt and destroy anyone trying to escape the soviet union. That's just a liability waiting to happen.


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## MeishasMom (Nov 12, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> Czech lines have a lot of aggression and suspicion and can be thin nerved. The dogs I know that police are buying are not that. They are stable with appropriate aggression. They do not like dog aggression either. They need dogs that can be controlled. The dogs I know are not a "line". They are dogs that can do the job. Police do not care about pedigrees as a general rule so I'm actually surprised that a whole state has a breeding program of dogs that were bred to hunt and destroy anyone trying to escape the soviet union. That's just a liability waiting to happen.


Thank you Jax08 for that information.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

m2mtalcott said:


> I am not doing this publicly. I just put some information out to attract help from people truly familiar with Working Lines. If you are someone associated with police work and / or very experienced handling working lines particularly Czech then please PM me . He is very well socialized is good around everyone. If you want to get the assessments I received I am happy to give it to you in pm. But first I would also like to ask you some questions the web is awash with “experts”. This is not my first rodeo “obedience” “children” “strange surfaces”… he’s well trained and wonderful with everyone. He just sends people to the hospital once in a while. Talk to you soon


I sent you a pm with the same questions I asked here. I’m going to try to keep this productive. A couple things. A sharp dog that has put his owner in the hospital but doesn’t have the temperament to work will be very difficult to place. The reality is people who can handle that type of temperament typically aren’t looking for a dog that doesn’t work. If two police trainers have already assessed him and deemed him unsuitable for the work, I don’t know what you expect to accomplish by repeatedly going down the same road. Those issues that prevent him from being a good police dog candidate have a good chance to prevent him from being a good sport candidate. When you look at dogs that trend towards a certain type of temperament, it’s hard to home them when they can’t work.


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Buckelke said:


> I googled about and found this article with a few suggestions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The breeder is a trainer and a member of the police. Ragnars parents and multiple siblings are in the force and his parents are imports but yes that’s an excellent suggestion thank you


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> I sent you a pm with the same questions I asked here. I’m going to try to keep this productive. A couple things. A sharp dog that has put his owner in the hospital but doesn’t have the temperament to work will be very difficult to place. The reality is people who can handle that type of temperament typically aren’t looking for a dog that doesn’t work. If two police trainers have already assessed him and deemed him unsuitable for the work, I don’t know what you expect to accomplish by repeatedly going down the same road. Those issues that prevent him from being a good police dog candidate have a good chance to prevent him from being a good sport candidate. When you look at dogs that trend towards a certain type of temperament, it’s hard to home them when they can’t work.


So if all the above is the case are you suggesting he be put down? I understand the window of who might take him is very small. The two trainers do have different ideas though as to what makes a police dog…it’s complicated. One has written him off completely “too much freedom” ; “too insecure” ; but they each have different methods of training…I have a contract where the breeder takes him back and I have contacted him first. But right now he “has no room” and is talking to his contacts in the Mass State Police


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Czech lines have a lot of aggression and suspicion and can be thin nerved. The dogs I know that police are buying are not that. They are stable with appropriate aggression. They do not like dog aggression either. They need dogs that can be controlled. The dogs I know are not a "line". They are dogs that can do the job. Police do not care about pedigrees as a general rule so I'm actually surprised that a whole state has a breeding program of dogs that were bred to hunt and destroy anyone trying to escape the soviet union. That's just a liability waiting to happen.


I know that’s exactly right. That’s precisely the problem that my Mass State Police trainer had when I showed up with him. He had suggested a certain breeder that breeds DDR working lines for the force…I came up with Ragnar on my own instead as I had just lost my (6th) German shepherd from intestinal torsion at just 18 months old and Ragnars litter came available. I did not do my homework on Czech dogs. My Mass State Police trainer had a lot to say about that especially when he met the dog at 5 months. The other breeder trainer obviously loves the Czech lines because he breeds them (they are in the force elsewhere I don’t want to make a public spectacle of that good man) but I am definitely over my head. It’s a very special situation with Czech dogs…they were brought back from not being all the things you mention above that are desirable qualities for police work this is a steep learning curve for me and an exercise in learning how to listen for cues and clews thank you for your statements here I appreciate your engagement. My goal is to stop the bleeding (including Ragnars) I want everyone safe but I DO NOT want him put down


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> I respect that you are doing your due diligence in asking questions and that you don't know any of us. I respect that you would rather keep the information private instead of having everyone chime in with opinions on an evaluation. But we are trying to help you. So maybe be a little less abrasive when responding.
> 
> I sent you a PM, yesterday or the day before, asking for a pedigree and offering possible places in New England that could do an evaluation, obviously they will want to do their own evaluation as they should, and possibly help you place him. And you did not respond. So again, I'll just ask for his pedigree so I can see it and maybe suggest it to my contacts in the sport and LEO world.
> 
> Personally, I think trying to rehome a dog that will "just sends people to the hospital once in a while" on a pet forum is completely irresponsible.


I don’t have the pedigree as he is not neutered yet. The breeder contract says I get his papers after he is neutered. But I believe both his parents pedigrees are widely available. I have met his parents and I know his dogs routinely place with State Troopers. I do want help but I felt that at times I am being approached here as if I were someone who has willfully mishandled dogs and am “on the stand” for that . There are upfront demands for details that might make my breeder who is a good man and respected in the police force look bad. If that felt abrasive to anyone I am genuinely sorry. I don’t want to come across like that. But I felt a lot of presumptions and accusations flying at me from the moment I set foot in this forum; as if I were one of those people who got a GSD without knowing anything about them and then dumps their dog; I hope it’s clear that we did have some serious events here despite our best efforts (including a whole lot of expensive training) I may have been defensive about this for which I sincerely apologize. again I hope we can get past my tone and you will continue to try to help save this situation with your knowledge and connections, whoever has those. But that does not mean that as you suggest I wont be checking out what’s what and who’s who here as I am new to this forum and to blogging in general.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

m2mtalcott said:


> One has written him off completely “too much freedom” ; “too insecure” ; but they each have different methods of training…


The “too much freedom part doesn’t really matter as to him being a working dog or not. If someone was buying him to train they would set the boundaries on their own during training. It’s not relevant to his working ability. The insecure part is what matters. That is also the part that can make it hard to be a sport prospect or rehome, depending on what he meant by it. That’s one of the things I was asking.


m2mtalcott said:


> So if all the above is the case are you suggesting he be put down?


I’m telling he isn’t a simple dog to place. It goes back to what Lee said earlier.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

m2mtalcott said:


> There are upfront demands for details that might make my breeder who is a good man and respected in the police force look bad.


All of the questions asked are basic questions that would come up from anyone looking to take him in. It’s not some third degree. I would ask the same questions of anyone posting about rehoming a dog and it’s not personal to you. A couple things about the breeder. One I’m not really concerned with who he is. For one I know very well what you can end up with when you breed for suspicion and aggression. I know of a dog from a pedigree that could have made a phenomenal dog who turned out to be a nervy dog washed from sports and unfit for any working roles. The other thing is the breeder bred the dog. He put his kennel name on the dog. Breeders have to own the good that comes from their programs just like the bad. How it affects his reputation isn’t really relevant to rehoming the dog. Knowing the dogs pedigree is.


m2mtalcott said:


> I don’t have the pedigree as he is not neutered yet. The breeder contract says I get his papers after he is neutered.


This I will tell you is an actual red flag. You didn’t ask for breeder advice here so I won’t address that further unless you want. The next question would be why the breeder said the dog needed to be neutered. No one is holding anything against you. Everything being asked here is geared towards helping find the dog a home.


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> The “too much freedom part doesn’t really matter as to him being a working dog or not. If someone was buying him to train they would set the boundaries on their own during training. It’s not relevant to his working ability. The insecure part is what matters. That is also the part that can make it hard to be a sport prospect or rehome, depending on what he meant by it. That’s one of the things I was asking.
> 
> I’m telling he isn’t a simple dog to place. It goes back to what Lee said earlier.


 thank you I understand. I really (despite my 13 years of training my dogs with them) I don’t have the technical knowledge to understand exactly what the trainer OF the K-9 units of the Massachusetts State Police (I was just lucky to get in there with my household pets) had to say when he used the word “insecure”. He’s had a long history observing and training Czech dogs and he greatly prefers DDR. He spent a lot of time explaining to me what he finds problematic about Czech dogs in particular he said this dog was a good example of that problem. I can elaborate but I would be paraphrasing him, trying to explain to you what I thought he must mean (from my amateur point of view). I did do serious training years ago with this trainer (Protection with my then GSD starting at 4.5 months and continuing intensively for several years) and at that time he called me a “good handler” and suggested a DDR dog for me. With this dog I was gone traveling for work left him with my husband at a young formative age for several weeks which I regret and I did not get him down to my trainer til 5 months. He felt with this particular dog I should have showed up 2 months earlier. The “freedom” includes having allowed him to sleep on the floor of our bedroom (with an also unneutered standard poodle of the same age and a Pom and Rat Terrier) and being allowed to jump on the bed (which is where the bite happened). There was a dog fight on the bed after the Poodle returned from a week of training; my husband was already fed up with all the growling and fighting. The Poodle player King of the Hill on the bed; Ragnar shot flying across the room onto the bed biting him in a locked ball of dog on top of Michael. Michael was angry and reached for a collar to separate him. That’s when he got four deep picture wounds. Yes it’s our fault but we are trying to fix this and save the situation. Not to mention the perforated traumatized Pomeranian (he’s going to the vet tomorrow he may have an infection) who was in Ragnars face since he started to grow much bigger than him had a tendency to confront and cobra strike all of his GSDs but this time he got a huge correction —frankly Ragnar does not understand just how strong his bite is…it is troubling as he has never bitten anyone like that before and now it’s been twice in two weeks that he made significant puncture wounds…thoughts please. My apologies for being reactive previously it’s a stressful situation. On the brighter side Ragnar is a quick learner took to obedience like a charm and is very clean and responsive in his training and cues. He responds to the lightest touch when it comes to basic commands; he’s well socialized guests strangers even the mail man. He holds back literally even off leash. He’s always been very dominant with other dogs though he is (was til now) very gentle with small dogs and put up with a huge amount of provocation from them. He’s traveled with me everywhere and does not react badly to new situations. I made sure of that. However when I first took him to the trainer at 5 months he was very reactive to that circumstance. And he was very dominant with other dogs there. More soon


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> All of the questions asked are basic questions that would come up from anyone looking to take him in. It’s not some third degree. I would ask the same questions of anyone posting about rehoming a dog and it’s not personal to you. A couple things about the breeder. One I’m not really concerned with who he is. For one I know very well what you can end up with when you breed for suspicion and aggression. I know of a dog from a pedigree that could have made a phenomenal dog who turned out to be a nervy dog washed from sports and unfit for any working roles. The other thing is the breeder bred the dog. He put his kennel name on the dog. Breeders have to own the good that comes from their programs just like the bad. How it affects his reputation isn’t really relevant to rehoming the dog. Knowing the dogs pedigree is.
> 
> This I will tell you is an actual red flag. You didn’t ask for breeder advice here so I won’t address that further unless you want. The next question would be why the breeder said the dog needed to be neutered. No one is holding anything against you. Everything being asked here is geared towards helping find the dog a home.


Yes I can see that. My apologies for being defensive. I was heartbroken from my loss of my 18 month old GSD and after inquiring with all my known breeders with whom people I trust had a long standing relationship (but did not have a litter just then or were far away) I jumped in. I’ll share the breeders name with a small circle I just don’t want to “out” anyone in public until I know exactly what happened with the breeder but yes if I am completely honest with my self there were some red flags and I was in a hurry


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## GSD-IGP (9 mo ago)

m2mtalcott said:


> I don’t have the pedigree as he is not neutered yet. The breeder contract says I get his papers after he is neutered. *But I believe both his parents pedigrees are widely available.* I have met his parents and I know his dogs routinely place with State Troopers. I do want help but I felt that at times I am being approached here as if I were someone who has willfully mishandled dogs and am “on the stand” for that . There are upfront demands for details that might make my breeder who is a good man and respected in the police force look bad. If that felt abrasive to anyone I am genuinely sorry. I don’t want to come across like that. But I felt a lot of presumptions and accusations flying at me from the moment I set foot in this forum; as if I were one of those people who got a GSD without knowing anything about them and then dumps their dog; I hope it’s clear that we did have some serious events here despite our best efforts (including a whole lot of expensive training) I may have been defensive about this for which I sincerely apologize. again I hope we can get past my tone and you will continue to try to help save this situation with your knowledge and connections, whoever has those. But that does not mean that as you suggest I wont be checking out what’s what and who’s who here as I am new to this forum and to blogging in general.


There is good information in this thread, but I do think it would help to learn who the parents are. If the pedigrees are widely available it is easy enough to post the parents names. 

I am sorry you are going through this. I cannot imagine how challenging this is for you and your family.


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

m2mtalcott said:


> Yes I can see that. My apologies for being defensive. I was heartbroken from my loss of my 18 month old GSD and after inquiring with all my known breeders with whom people I trust had a long standing relationship (but did not have a litter just then or were far away) I jumped in. I’ll share the breeders name with a small circle I just don’t want to “out” anyone in public until I know exactly what happened with the breeder but yes if I am completely honest with my self there were some red flags and I was in a hurry. Yes I completely understand I will get you the pedigree


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

I also appear to be having technical difficulties blogging


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Okay here’s the parents of my dog Ragnar


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> That is an interesting assessment. Why is it they said he was unsuitable for police work? Can you describe his temperament beyond high prey drive? How is he with strangers? How does he handle new environments or strange surfaces? How is he with other dogs or around children? What training has he actually had? Is it just pet obedience? Do you have his pedigree?


Yes basic obedience not Protection work as I did with my other dogs. But his basic commands are all clean on and off leash. He is personable with strangers and friends and neighbors —even my ninety year old mother who is very affectionate with him and he’s been respectful of her—have had very pleasant interactions with him again and again. He has days when he balks at new situations (he acted up when I first brought him to his trainer) but is good with Vets boats many new experiences. He is willful however with my husband and son knocked the former down twice. Bites at the latters shoes (less so now, my 18 yr old has become more assertive with him); unsuitable for police work, again I am paraphrasing and quoting now my trainers reaction after his first full week of live in boot camp: “I could have pushed him further, but with a dog this insecure and emotional, I had to be sure to win his trust; if I pushed him too hard he might flip and consider everyone an enemy and then powerful as he is he can turn and become dangerous.” Im paraphrasing Then he went on to tell me about Czech dogs and that he had problems like this with them in the past and that Ragnar is half way in between the dog I had when I did Protection training (a marvelous dog with a reliable on-off switch no matter what the temptation or provocation zero to 100 and back to zero in a flash) and a completely insane and brutally dangerous Malinoix that he rescued. That scared me. Lately I had a long talk with him after Ragnar sent my husband to the hospital. No, he said, he did not think Ragnar is right for police work unless he had become “confident” since he last saw him (two months ago) but he doubted it He did say after Ragnars second week of intensive live in training with him that he was “a clean dog” that all of his basic commands were now “clean” which they are. Except when he’s in a dog fight apparently which of course is where it would matter most especially given what happened there. I’ve been reinforcing that training for the past 6 months and I have been consistent


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Godea od Janice | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog


Všechny relevantní informace jako jsou obrázky, videa a podrobný rodokmen pro Godea od Janice nalezneš na working-dog.



cs.working-dog.com












Yaran vom Salztalblick | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog


You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Yaran vom Salztalblick at working-dog.



us.working-dog.com


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

WNGD said:


> Beautiful area to have that dog, I'm sorry its not working out but perhaps not the best chance for success with the current dogs.


Thank you for the kind words. That is all on our land, it’s been “dog heaven” a wonderful thing to have on a coastal mountain in Maine! Yes this is a total heart break for me


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

m2mtalcott said:


> The “freedom” includes having allowed him to sleep on the floor of our bedroom (with an also unneutered standard poodle of the same age and a Pom and Rat Terrier) and being allowed to jump on the bed (which is where the bite happened). There was a dog fight on the bed after the Poodle returned from a week of training; my husband was already fed up with all the growling and fighting. The Poodle player King of the Hill on the bed; Ragnar shot flying across the room onto the bed biting him in a locked ball of dog on top of Michael. Michael was angry and reached for a collar to separate him. That’s when he got four deep picture wounds. Yes it’s our fault but we are trying to fix this and save the situation. Not to mention the perforated traumatized Pomeranian (he’s going to the vet tomorrow he may have an infection) who was in Ragnars face since he started to grow much bigger than him had a tendency to confront and cobra strike all of his GSDs but this time he got a huge correction —frankly Ragnar does not understand just how strong his bite is…it is troubling as he has never bitten anyone like that before and now it’s been twice in two weeks that he made significant puncture wounds…thoughts please.


I don’t think the issue here is the GSD and his freedom, but the interactions that are allowed between all the dogs. It doesn’t sound like Ragnar is 100 percent at fault, rather a combination of mismanaged dogs that created this. When it comes to my dogs I do allow them some communication between each other, but I by and large take the responsibility for making sure they respect each others boundaries and get corrected when needed. I will correct and remove a dog as necessary for not respecting another’s space. I will correct and remove a dog for trying to take something from another dog. I will correct and remove a dog for trying to push around the other. No dog should be allowed to harass the other, regardless of size. That Pom should have been corrected by you and your husband for his actions towards Ragnar. He pushed and pushed until he got a response. The other two should have been watched closely and checked the second the signs of aggression towards each other came. It’s unwise to put your hands near the business ends of dogs fighting. Every situation is different and it’s hard to give a playbook on how to handle it but I wouldn’t do that unless it was a moment I knew the dog wouldn’t redirect. Not a guarantee by any means, but you would have had a much easier time with a female/male pairing vice same sex. It’s not that your situation is untenable, but it would require a firm and consistent hand, or a crate and rotate.


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> I respect that you are doing your due diligence in asking questions and that you don't know any of us. I respect that you would rather keep the information private instead of having everyone chime in with opinions on an evaluation. But we are trying to help you. So maybe be a little less abrasive when responding.
> 
> I sent you a PM, yesterday or the day before, asking for a pedigree and offering possible places in New England that could do an evaluation, obviously they will want to do their own evaluation as they should, and possibly help you place him. And you did not respond. So again, I'll just ask for his pedigree so I can see it and maybe suggest it to my contacts in the sport and LEO world.
> 
> Personally, I think trying to rehome a dog that will "just sends people to the hospital once in a while" on a pet forum is completely irresponsible.


 he bit my husband in a dog fight. I have heard that sticking your hand into a dog fight is not optimal. I don’t see signs of people aggression per se . I have a trainer and a breeder who are both putting the word out in their law enforcement circles . I am not offering the dog on a public forum to just anyone. I am trying to widen my circle of people who know love and can effectively deal with a Czech Working Line German Shepherd Dog. That’s a very small pool of people. Do you think it is irresponsible of me to try to stir up that particular linited and highly skilled pool of people here? Those are the only ones I would “give” my dog to. I’m answering your pm here in this post as I have got on the wrong side of a lot of people somehow and so I have ended up doing all of this very publicly after all. I apologize sincerely for any unintended offense or thoughtless abrasiveness. This circumstance (just happened a few days ago) has put me on edge


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think the issue here is the GSD and his freedom, but the interactions that are allowed between all the dogs. It doesn’t sound like Ragnar is 100 percent at fault, rather a combination of mismanaged dogs that created this. When it comes to my dogs I do allow them some communication between each other, but I by and large take the responsibility for making sure they respect each others boundaries and get corrected when needed. I will correct and remove a dog as necessary for not respecting another’s space. I will correct and remove a dog for trying to take something from another dog. I will correct and remove a dog for trying to push around the other. No dog should be allowed to harass the other, regardless of size. That Pom should have been corrected by you and your husband for his actions towards Ragnar. He pushed and pushed until he got a response. The other two should have been watched closely and checked the second the signs of aggression towards each other came. It’s unwise to put your hands near the business ends of dogs fighting. Every situation is different and it’s hard to give a playbook on how to handle it but I wouldn’t do that unless it was a moment I knew the dog wouldn’t redirect. Not a guarantee by any means, but you would have had a much easier time with a female/male pairing vice same sex. It’s not that your situation is untenable, but it would require a firm and consistent hand, or a crate and rotate.


 yes we are now down to crate and rotate you are correct about all the above. The Pom has got away with murder over the past ten years with 4 different other German Shepherds they all thought the Pom was funny. Even Ragnar has been consistently sweet to him he grew up with him and was patient with him no matter how badly the Pom acted. The Pom was a rescue ten years ago and otherwise so easy to get along with (heels naturally off leash etc) that I admit I neglected to train him formally and this was the result. You are so right. Sticking your hand into a dog fight is not something I myself would have done. It was also the first time it happened (it was the first time that the pudel had been away) although in my long discussion with the trainer afterwards he suggested that I / we as a family would have missed and overlooked early signs and not nipped them in the bud…so yes unfortunately I was not as competent or savvy as I should have been or my trainer had expected me to be. This is on me. We’ve had two unneutered GSD males together before but they were 4 years apart and there was never anything like this just cheerful romping I got spoiled and a little negligent after all of that and I’ve been traveling for work For 3 months out of the last eleven with unfortunate consequences for Ragnar obviously; thank you for taking the time to help him


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> All of the questions asked are basic questions that would come up from anyone looking to take him in. It’s not some third degree. I would ask the same questions of anyone posting about rehoming a dog and it’s not personal to you. A couple things about the breeder. One I’m not really concerned with who he is. For one I know very well what you can end up with when you breed for suspicion and aggression. I know of a dog from a pedigree that could have made a phenomenal dog who turned out to be a nervy dog washed from sports and unfit for any working roles. The other thing is the breeder bred the dog. He put his kennel name on the dog. Breeders have to own the good that comes from their programs just like the bad. How it affects his reputation isn’t really relevant to rehoming the dog. Knowing the dogs pedigree is.
> 
> This I will tell you is an actual red flag. You didn’t ask for breeder advice here so I won’t address that further unless you want. The next question would be why the breeder said the dog needed to be neutered. No one is holding anything against you. Everything being asked here is geared towards helping find the dog a home.


I do want breeder advice from you and any advice that you can give me. Thank you I deeply appreciate your engagement and your patience with my initial reactions to an unfamiliar setting at a fraught and emotional time for me my family and my dogs


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

m2mtalcott said:


> yes we are now down to crate and rotate you are correct about all the above. The Pom has got away with murder over the past ten years with 4 different other German Shepherds they all thought the Pom was funny. Even Ragnar has been consistently sweet to him he grew up with him and was patient with him no matter how badly the Pom acted. The Pom was a rescue ten years ago and otherwise so easy to get along with (heels naturally off leash etc) that I admit I neglected to train him formally and this was the result. You are so right. Sticking your hand into a dog fight is not something I myself would have done. It was also the first time it happened (it was the first time that the pudel had been away) although in my long discussion with the trainer afterwards he suggested that I / we as a family would have missed and overlooked early signs and not nipped them in the bud…so yes unfortunately I was not as competent or savvy as I should have been or my trainer had expected me to be. This is on me. We’ve had two unneutered GSD males together before but they were 4 years apart and there was never anything like this just cheerful romping I got spoiled and a little negligent after all of that and I’ve been traveling for work For 3 months out of the last eleven with unfortunate consequences for Ragnar obviously thank you for taking the time to help him


I agree with your trainer. Some lessons are learned the hard way. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s nothing to stress over now, just something to take and use to do better next time.


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

GSD-IGP said:


> There is good information in this thread, but I do think it would help to learn who the parents are. If the pedigrees are widely available it is easy enough to post the parents names.
> 
> I am sorry you are going through this. I cannot imagine how challenging this is for you and your family.


Thank you for your kind words your engagement and your understanding of this situation. It’s my worst nightmare: tearing my hair out about ways in which I failed to handle this dog as I should have, watching a series of mistakes go by, it’s so sad…yes indeed.it’s very hard on the family . He’s a family member and so far we’ve all failed him; plus the next time —as a consequence of that failure the damage—could be even worse….not an easy thing to face. Parents posted below and I believe there are links now to the pedigrees


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> Godea od Janice | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog
> 
> 
> Všechny relevantní informace jako jsou obrázky, videa a podrobný rodokmen pro Godea od Janice nalezneš na working-dog.
> ...


Thank you for this!!


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> Godea od Janice | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog
> 
> 
> Všechny relevantní informace jako jsou obrázky, videa a podrobný rodokmen pro Godea od Janice nalezneš na working-dog.
> ...


Looks like dam is all Czech lines and Sire does go back to DDR of course all Czech were originally DDR but took a different direction. I really appreciate this info. I see how little homework I did with Ragnar; I did so much more with my previous German Shepherd dogs (West German Sport Dog lines including Welt Sieger) I can still recite their pedigrees; in this case I just trusted that if Ragnars parents were law enforcement material they must be good enough…I was impressed by a video showing his mothers training…should have stuck to the breeder that my trainer recommended for me…they would have made for a much calmer more steady dog as I understand it now ….yes breeder advice please…again I would love that I obviously do need it….


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> I agree with your trainer. Some lessons are learned the hard way. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s nothing to stress over now, just something to take and use to do better next time.


Thank you


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

m2mtalcott said:


> he bit my husband in a dog fight. I have heard that sticking your hand into a dog fight is not optimal. I don’t see signs of people aggression per se . I have a trainer and a breeder who are both putting the word out in their law enforcement circles . I am not offering the dog on a public forum to just anyone. I am trying to widen my circle of people who know love and can effectively deal with a Czech Working Line German Shepherd Dog. That’s a very small pool of people. Do you think it is irresponsible of me to try to stir up that particular linited and highly skilled pool of people here? Those are the only ones I would “give” my dog to. I’m answering your pm here in this post as I have got on the wrong side of a lot of people somehow and so I have ended up doing all of this very publicly after all. I apologize sincerely for any unintended offense or thoughtless abrasiveness. This circumstance (just happened a few days ago) has put me on edge


Yes, people can be seriously hurt in a dog fight. It's why in another thread I advised to keep the dogs crated and rotated while a baby was awake. It only takes a second for a dog to redirect and I have the scar on my leg to prove that. 

So do I think it's irresponsible to rehome a dog that sends people to the hospital? With the information you had given up to that point, I'll stand by that statement 100%. However, if this was an incident where a person got between a young, intact, male coming into maturity and another dog - that does change the outlook. Dog aggression does not equal human aggression. And even the dog aggression may just be a mismanagement of the particular dog.

The majority of people on this board are pet owners, just like you, that may not have the skills to handle this dog. Others like me, that could have the skills, have sport dogs and most people won't want to take on baggage. But we do have connections that we can send you too. This dog is young, and if the ability is there, can still be trained to work. 

If you are interested in those connections to have your dog evaulated by them for interest, then respond to the PM and I'll send them to you. One, a K9 officer and trainer, is in NH and the other is in Mass that trains K9's and sport dogs (they are away at a world competition right now), and there is another K9 officer with years of SAR training (she's probably the best in the state) in eastern NY. I would trust all of these people, and have since one is my protection helper, with my dogs 100%. As someone above said - dogs can still be a single purpose dog. And, no offense to your Mass SP breeder, but not all trainers are alike. I have work to do and a dog to train so I won't repond directly to the thread anymore. If you want the connections, PM me.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I feel for you.
These dogs just can’t be treated as pets.
I think with proper management you can still keep this dog, but you have to be willing to work with what you have, and approach ownership of this dog in an entirely different way.
If you don’t think you can crate and rotate, please listen to @Jax08. With her help, you can find the right placement for him, and you will be happy, and so will the dog.


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Sunflowers said:


> I feel for you.
> These dogs just can’t be treated as pets.
> I think with proper management you can still keep this dog, but you have to be willing to work with what you have, and approach ownership of this dog in an entirely different way.
> If you don’t think you can crate and rotate, please listen to @Jax08. With her help, you can find the right placement for him, and you will be happy, and so will the dog.


Thank you for your kind words. Even I know enough to know that I messed up badly. Im doing crate and rotate consistently now. And yes I am definitely listening to @Jax08. I gave her all of the information she asked for
breeder trainer pedigree contact information for everyone
including myself
in a pm.

My apologies for being both tentative and reactive on this forum I think I’ve figured out who to listen to here, finally. This is all a steep learning curve.

My mostly West German Schutzhund lines and one AKC line dogs (6 GSD in twenty years another one in my childhood while living in Switzerland) were rarely crated. They loved their crate but spent only a couple hours a day in it usually with the door open.

But I understand how my trainer who has working dogs handles his working lines. They consistently crate and rotate. No monkey business

I should have done everything differently in this regard. I should have been here more. Raising him with another large-ish male puppy two weeks apart and with this many (bratty) small dogs and cats all milling about in a big dog and cat pile was an unfortunate choice.

Now we are redirecting me!

This is a win win: either he gets evaluated by a range of badass trainers in three states with competent working line connections and gets to be a forever dog to a competent handler in the right setting

or:

I become a more competent handler myself and we provide a better setting.

Win/win as long as the dog has potential which some seem to think he may…some don’t as much…but we shall see. Not every trainer is the same. Some may see potential where others don’t. First one has to subtract the factor of incompetent handling and lapses of judgment. The dog is still young.

Some may also have a way with and liking for certain lines (like the more “emotionally volatile” Czech lines (apparently mostly on his dams side) that I am now told were deliberately brought down a notch through breeding certain qualities back into them, when they became too difficult—super high drive / emotional—even for most K-9 units ) I love and respect this dog and I am not putting down any dog (or his lines) because of my own stupidity. No the working lines can’t be treated as pets. I knew that and I ignored it. I was very focused amateur handler and worked very hard (for years with this trainer and with a certain awesome dog) when years ago a DDR dog was first suggested to me by that trainer as a possible “next dog” for my purposes at the time; since then I clearly fell asleep at the job

I deeply appreciate your interest in this case and your empathy for my current predicament thank you


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The running joke at our club - 

Get a czech line. it will be fun they said

You will be in good hands with any of the 3 I sent you. They are fair and consistent trainers with experience.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Lol @Jax08 Czech dogs can be a handful but they are fun, can’t take it from them! As well as DDRs, just in a different way, who are so super serious. 

The OPs dog is not fully Czech lines so I would not focus on the lines so much. Sounds like a nice dog. Young Czech dogs can look nervy when young, insecure rather as your trainer said, completely normal, you just need to let them mature, keep training and manage the multiple dog household.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

@m2mtalcott , no more beating yourself up.
I doubt that this is beyond fixing, especially having read about your experience.
Hey, you owned a few Volvos, and got a Ferrari! It’s ok, as long as you respect it and handle it as it needs😏
You will be fine, and so will the dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> Lol @Jax08 Czech dogs can be a handful but they are fun, can’t take it from them! As well as DDRs, just in a different way, who are so super serious.
> 
> The OPs dog is not fully Czech lines so I would not focus on the lines so much. Sounds like a nice dog. Young Czech dogs can look nervy when young, insecure rather as your trainer said, completely normal, you just need to let them mature, keep training and manage the multiple dog household.



I like them.  dogs like that need to mature before pressure is put on them for sure. Even my girl that's not all czech has a high level of suspicion and just letting her mature made all the difference.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> The running joke at our club -
> 
> Get a czech line. it will be fun they said


One thing Hans’ breeder did well: she handed me the right dog.
When I took puppy Hans for his first vet visit, she said, “Ohhh, a CZECH line? This could be the best thing ever, or a complete disaster!”
I was lucky to have this forum. Can’t imagine what I would have done, had I not had advice from so many.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I really love a good czech/wg cross that brings in the best of both words. There are certain lines that I love to see in a pedigree because they bring in stability like the Eqidius lines.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

__





Litter from Yaran vom Salztalblick and Godea od Janice







www.pedigreedatabase.com





Here is a pedigree on the mating.....the sire is pretty much West German, the dam Czech, the full pedigree on her is on working dog....most of it is NOT common here in the US, but I do see some dogs I know of. The sire's WGR lines have a combo I don't particularly care for from a nerve standpoint.

IMO, if there is an issue with this dog, it is that - as I said - people import and breed dogs without understanding the pedigree's potentials and what mixes well. People have X dollars to spend, a broker finds them a dog meeting certain limited criteria - age, price, color - whatever, and viola' - they start breeding. Selling pups is lucrative, so they import a couple more. 

It does not sound like this is a bad pup!!!! This is a pup who was treated like an ordinary dog who was thrust into a situation with 2 older dogs who were used to bullying ((??)) your previous GSD - maybe not the right word. He has the genetics to be stronger, but he needs (ed) more structure and clarity in his upbringing. The bite was in a dogfight - so I would NOT be focused on him being a biter! It is too bad you are so far away....I have a couple contacts here. He needs some firm handling, some structure, and to not be bothered by other dogs in a household.

I hope you find a good placement for him, he looks like a nice boy.

*edit to add:* I had not read the last page of comments - perhaps a new reality like NILIF and a new trainer and not having such free reign of the house with other animals might help you get a better handle on him...a good foundation and in time, he can mature and be part of the family....I would still TRY to hold off on the neuter until 18 months if possible just due to his needing his hormones...otherwise he will be a "teenaged boy" for life and be more prone to certain injuries like ACL tears.

Lee


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## dynahd06 (Mar 12, 2020)

m2mtalcott said:


> Thank you for your kind words. Even I know enough to know that I messed up badly. Im doing crate and rotate consistently now. And yes I am definitely listening to @Jax08. I gave her all of the information she asked for
> breeder trainer pedigree contact information for everyone
> including myself
> in a pm.
> ...


That is a beautiful dog ...Dont beat yourself up so much you can not split yourself in ten . i wish i had space for him...Anyone who says they have never made mistakes is a liar. hang in there someone is a perfect match for him, you will find that someone.


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## m2mtalcott (8 mo ago)

Ahh these are good words!! Thank you. Yes he’s beautiful! And he’s affectionate and engaged and willing. Yes so far there have been no takers for placement which may be hard and will perhaps prove unnecessary (that’s our current intent, to keep him); but we have not been idle either. We’ve been to several serious trainers (recommended by senior members of this forum) and they all don’t see either dog agression nor human aggression per se. They see “too much freedom”….ie two adolescent intact dogs everywhere….We have changed our lifestyle to crate and rotate. We are getting tighter on training. His blood lines turn out to be good ones according to voices here. So there’s hope! He’s young and we though not young (both 63 plus a 19 year old) may well be trainable. Thank you for your amazing support


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