# Puppy biting kid. Help!! Long



## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

Hey everyone, this is my first post. I've been using this forum as a tool for a while but this is the first situation I've felt the need to post. A little backstory first. I have a 7.5 month old gsd male, Kodiak, that I purchased when he was 14 weeks old. I've been working with a trainer for a couple months as he will be my service dog in the future if all goes well. He was very skittish as a pup but with tons of socializing has become much more open and friendly. He was initially fearful and aggressive towards other dogs but we got over that. He doesn't have much interest in people, outside of my close friends and me of course. He isn't aggressive at all just not eager to let new people pet him or get too close. We have been working on this and he warms up quickly and doesn't back away anymore. Anyway I try to socialize him all the time, but he hasn't been around many kids. When I take him in public, most parents or kids are scared because he is a gsd I guess. Never experienced that with my other mix breed. So he has only been around 4 small kids. 2 were just today. So I bring him home to meet the family, we live a ways away so first chance I've had to come back, and introduce him to the family. He was a bit on edge with new surroundings but did very well. We then went to a soccer game and he did great. A little girl came up to pet my dogs and Kodiak did great. Let her hug him and pet him all over and loved it. Then my nephew comes up. All is fine for a few minutes then Kodiak gave a small growl and tried to bite my nephews shoes,he's 4 yrs old BTW. I react quickly and don't let it happen. He tried again, after my nephew teased him unknowingly to me. But again I react and move his attention elsewhere. I thought he needed some exercise, was cooped up after long drive, so exercised him and came back to my sisters. I take my nephew in the backyard with the dogs and being very watchful, but Kodiak did great. My nephew ran around, wrestled with me, and he did fantastic. 

We then go to the river with the family and he continued to do great around all the kids. Then it switched out if nowhere. We were sitting by the river and my nephew was standing next to us. He was fine for 10 mins like this then Kodiak (without any warning) turned and bit my nephews pants. I was watching closely but he showed no warning signs this time. He bit once and grab the pant leg, then bit again and I pulled him back (all happened very fast) and my pulling him back pulled my nephew down as Kodiak wouldn't release. He never growled I don't think. I tried staying calm and put him in a submissive state, was super embarrassing with all the people around. I'm wondering what your thoughts are, how do I correct this? As this is my first gsd, is it normal for them to be uninterested in new people and not wanting to be pet by strangers? He didn't seem fearful at the moment, and I doubt he was protecting me..could this be dominance related? He's 7.5 months and not fixed. And before everyone says get a trainer, I do have one we have been seeing and she's great but he's never done anything like this and my trainer is out of town for a few weeks. I want to start correcting this immediately. My plan as of now is to try to desensitize him with a muzzle and meet as many new kids as possible. Any thoughts or suggestions would be great.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi Pb&N. Did he actually bite the your nephew's leg or just tug on the pans?

I'd keep Kodiak away from children until your trainer has a chance to hear this story and how the incident evolved.
She knows your dog and his back ground.

I don't know when it is and isn't appropriate to use a muzzle.

My pup's trainer accepts aggressive dogs into his training classes but always assigns a staff member to work along side the dog's owner.

I've only seen him muzzle one dog and a staff member was assigned to assist with that dog, which made me wonder why would a muzzled dog need more than one person to handle him during a basic obedience class. 

What I'm saying is that I don't know if it's okay to just muzzle a dog without some professional advice/assistance.

This is just a forum. People will give you their best guess but we don't know you or your dog.
In this situation...pup biting kid, it's best to ere on the side of caution. That way your pup doesn't get upset and you won't have to worry.
Good luck, hope all goes well.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes it's normal for Gsds to be aloof with strangers and uncomfortable being touched by them.Keep him away from kids,don't allow anyone except the household members he's grown up with to touch him.Wait for your trainer to get back to town to help you work through your concerns.
Sounds like he got stressed during all of the new experiences and you weren't able to read any signals he was exhibiting.Until the trainer can get with you,keep Kodiak in familiar surroundings and situations.Prevent any opportunity for him to bite.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It does seem like an awful lot for the pup in a day. 

I would not muzzle him and flood him with kids. It could backfire big time. And kids do not need to be petting dogs with muzzles on. If you want to muzzle your dog to be 100% safe with him, then tell the kids he is working, and no they cannot pet him.


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

Did he have food in his pants?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Apexk9 said:


> Did he have food in his pants?


Good point. It doesn't look like aggression as you would have seen warning signs, like growls, avoidance behavior earlier etc. Possibly over stimulated and needing a break.
He is a typical adolescent that was not managed carefully around kids so I would not blame the dog. Next time be more vigilant though.


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

Yeah I was a bit anxious after and posted this really late at night. Maybe the aggression section was not the proper place. This is not by my means the first dog I've trained, so I know the warning signs. I understand the comment about being more vigilant but there really is nothing I could have done differently. He was leashed and even a friend that is a long time gsd breeder said that was the first time he had seen one bite without warning. He was right next to me. The first incident at the soccer field, Kodiak showed signs. Maybe I should have not let my nephew close at all after that but thought it was s different issue. After that he seemed great all day, but just snapped. I am by no means blaming the dog, I realize he reflects the work and training I've put in with him, I'm just trying to sort through why and what to do next. I understand kids can be a strange experience for a young dog that hasn't been around them enough (my fault, but it's hard as I'm 24, no friends have kids, family is far away,and many strangers have been avoided us even when he was very young pup..I still should have done more). At this point I'm guessing he was over stressed and/or dominance issues as he has a lot of hormones right now reaching sexual maturity. Also no he didn't have food. He also, luckily did not bite him, poor wording choice for title, I was exhausted. He just grabbed his pants and ripped him down. He was going back to bite again as I held him back. I honestly think he would have if I wasn't there. Anyway thanks for the replies. Any help is great. This is a constant learning process for me and just trying to do my best for both of us. Like I said, this was the most embarrassing thing that has happened to me as a dog owner and was immediately judged by everyone around. I spend ALL my time with my dogs and really just trying to be a proactive owner. Thanks again


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

He saw you wrestling with your nephew. I would guess it was too much, too soon and your nephew's behavior is making your dog nervous. Can you contact your trainer via email and ask?


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

I've tried but no luck,she said she would be out of touch. And yeah I agree, I wish I could go back and do things differently. It was a good lesson for me though and just need to move forward and be more cautious. He had a very stressful weekend and I knew he had been anxious for a lot of it (why I was watching him so carefully) just didn't expect that because he's never reacted like that before. Althoug he was quite calm and happy all day that day because we were at the river and he loves water. He has been exhibiting a lot of new behaviors these past few weeks though so I should have done better


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Also important is that you maintain calmness, good breathing and confidence. When you act tense, so will he. Is he nervous in general?
For next time, make sure his obedience is up to par and he is well exercised. Don't put him in situation that you know (listen to your gut feeling) he and /or you cannot handle.
Time to move on and consider it a lesson learned. We all have been through these kind of expediences.


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## FlashSD (Oct 11, 2015)

My almost 9 month old gets very mouthy with my two kids (ages 13 and 4). He is also in service dog training.

My concern is the lack of warning before he did that. Even in play there should have been some warning. Especially as a service dog in training he will be around kids and stressful situations often (we just started escalators with my pup holy wow that was interesting).

Have you heard from the trainer?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

think long and hard whether this dog is a good candidate for your future service dog . You didn't specify for what , doesn't really matter , because no matter what you need a reliable bomb-proof dog . Starting off with "very skittish as a pup " "initially fearful and aggressive towards other dogs " "He was a bit on edge with new surroundings "
even if problems masked by repeated conditioning may very well surface again at a time when you least expect it and can have bad results for you, and the dog.
Service dogs have to be able to negotiate with constant change of environment , interactions , and experiences.

Why in the world would you let a child come and hug the dog . Yikes. " not eager to let new people pet him or get too close. " Child #1 , the girl , dog is okay(ish) maybe. Child number #2 the boy, dog gives a warning growl and then mouths . He has reached his limit with the first and took it out on the second.

Do be careful. 
Reality check .

"He was fine for 10 mins like this then Kodiak (without any warning) turned and bit my nephews pants. I was watching closely but he showed no warning signs this time. He bit once and grab the pant leg, then bit again and I pulled him back (all happened very fast) and my pulling him back pulled my nephew down as Kodiak wouldn't release. He never growled I don't think."

no warning , lightening fast, would not out -- can't take stimulation , lacks confidence .


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## FlashSD (Oct 11, 2015)

carmspack said:


> think long and hard whether this dog is a good candidate for your future service dog . You didn't specify for what , doesn't really matter , because no matter what you need a reliable bomb-proof dog . Starting off with "very skittish as a pup " "initially fearful and aggressive towards other dogs " "He was a bit on edge with new surroundings "
> even if problems masked by repeated conditioning may very well surface again at a time when you least expect it and can have bad results for you, and the dog.
> Service dogs have to be able to negotiate with constant change of environment , interactions , and experiences.
> 
> ...


This. All of this. While Flash is mouthy with the kids at home, they are his kids and it's always in play and he has never shown any aggression at all in any form. With his pack he gets to be a puppy, and I'm okay with that. But already he's been massively socialized with people, other animals and lots of different situations. There are still some things that will spook him, but he will jump and then usually wait for instruction from me over whatever he thinks might eat him (like the dog eating moving staircase cliff).

Most dogs are not set up for service work. And I know my trainer (who trains specifically with owners and dogs for service work) would refuse to work with a dog who showed nerves, other animal aggression or the issues you are facing.

Please consider making Kodiak a pet and getting a more stable animal as your SD. Otherwise you risk not just you, Kodiak and whoever he associates with, but the rest of us who use and need our GSD as our service animal.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Whoa! What on earth were you thinking? Perhaps "Let's push this until we get something I don't like"? One brief encounter that was successful = time to stop for today. Took me a while to learn that but it finally stuck. We made many trips to pet stores that were quick, successful, reaction free "in and out".


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

pb said "I am by no means blaming the dog, I realize he reflects the work and training I've put in with him, I'm just trying to sort through why and what to do next"

The dog is the raw material that you have to work with.
You said that he was a nervy , edgy dog, skittish, fear aggressive , not the epitome of stability. Don't ask more of the dog than the dog can deliver. 
When you said that he " just snapped " that was a reaction to the limit of his coping ability. Not much happened to provoke such a sharp reaction. That is a major worry. 
You said "I'm guessing he was over stressed and/or dominance issues "
It sounds like at his core he is not the right dog for the job. 

All the training by you or your trainer won't make it so. The best outcome is a pet who has been conditioned to situations and will live a life taking that into consideration . Not a service dog though.


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

Alright guys I have some updates on my pup and hoping to get some more opinions. A few other notable incidents have occurred so I'm hoping someone can provide some more insight. I have seen my trainer and have been following her advice on the matter but want some different opinions. My pup, 9 months old now, has been growling and snapping towards friends that he hasn't met that come in our home. I've been following my trainers advice on leashing him when people come over and distracting him with treats before he has a chance to react and doing proper introductions. It seems to work great for a bit, but he still loses focus and always tries to snap at peoples feet once the treats don't distract him. So tonight a good friend came over that he has grown up around is the only other person I trusted him around. He was completely normal and lovable for an hour with us and when she laid down and hung her feet off the couch he bit at her feet and bit her leg as well. It did break skin, and luckily this was only a small scrape. This was only after she kicked her legs around that he did this. This is similar to when he grabbed my nephew's pants as he was kicking his legs around. I know I might get burned for not having him on a leash and monitoring him as closely as I do with everyone else, but this is a person that he grew up with and NEVER would have thought he would do this. Now this is a learning process for me so I won't make the mistake of trusting him with anyone but me at this point. I previously thought some of this was fear based and I'm still leaning towards that but his body language is a bit confusing. He does has some fear, he snaps and pulls away and goes again, but he doesn't drop his tail or ears or cower. I do watch his body language carefully but sometimes he doesn't show any warning signs, like tonight. He just snapped. I'm wondering opinions on why he would be reacting this way and how to proceed. Of course I'll keep talking with my trainer and working with him, but there is really no other trainers in my area (rural) so any thoughts are welcome.


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

And also, just to be clear, I'm not really worried about the service dog training at the moment, I realize he may not be good candidate, I got him at 14 weeks and worked tirelessly with him to socialize and condition him and it went great for a while but he has always been a nervous dog that I had hoped to build his confidence and work with. At this point I'm just looking for a solid pet and getting him more stable so we can enjoy our lives together


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like he was trying to engage, play with her, he took her lying down as an invitation to play with him, and when she started thrashing her legs around, it was like a huge flirt pole, and he was going for the stuff that was thrashing around. 

I don't understand the distracting a dog with treats, but I am pretty dumb when it comes to aggression. I would just think that it would be really easy to reward the wrong thing. 

I would do this a little different. I would work on obedience, and trust with this puppy away from distractions (including other people). For the first couple of months, just keep him away from other people. Take him to classes, but do not allow interaction between him and other people/dogs. Make him feel totally safe by keeping the distance between him and people enough that he never has any reason to react.

Build the bond, get obedience excellent keeping it fun, with plenty of success and praise. Help him to trust you. Don't worry about how long it takes. What's the hurry. 

Once you know this dog like the back of your hand, you know what he is going to do before he does it. Then, you can start to move closer, introduce distractions while training and working with your dog. You can't act worried, you need to act like this is no big deal. "Yep, that's a person, let's move on." Don't start by introducing him to people, start by just walking by other people. Once he is no longer concerned walking by other people that are ignoring him, then you can sit him and say hello to the person, but don't ask the dog to interact at all. 

AFTER a positive interaction. You stopped, you had him sit, you said hi to the person, then you walked onward with the dog, and THEN tell him he was a good boy and give him a tid bit. 

For now, I would crate the dog when I had friends over. 

That is what I would do. 

The dog probably has some weakness of nerve, building the bond of trust between you and the dog (both ways) will help that, so will natural maturation. Lots of people neuter at the age your pup is because dogs often go through some frustrating/irritating/uncomfortable behaviors at this point. Usually we just work through it. But sometimes working through it, means backing up and reinforcing training he already has with less distractions. 

Good luck with your puppy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't do puppy Per se but I did find this trainer and I like her stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/user/DogerciseLA/playlists

Take note of training puppies in the "Place Command" that will come in handy down the road!

Welcome aboard.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

dog bites kid... was there food in his pants?
dog bites friend because her feet seemed like a giant flirt pole?

are you guys serious?? a nervous, fearful, skiddish german shepherd who has a history of growling, snapping and having bitten is not looking for food or play. the OP wouldn't be here if that were the case... let's not kid her!

OP: I do have to ask however.... is the trainer actually instructing you to "distract" him or is that your interpretation of the food use? you aren't the first person to have explained it that way so I'm curious and it worries me... both the mindset and how the food is being delivered. a food reward needs to be rewarding a behavior.

lastly... dogs that demonstrate some of his behaviors don't only fall into fearful or aggressive categories... some are uneducated and some are just plain unsound - to varying degrees.

I'm glad to know you aren't giving up. I do wish you had more than one training resource.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Who decided this dog was nervy, fearful, etc to begin with? Was the dog in any obedience classes at 14-16 weeks or ever? This is the problem I see--dog is showing signs of something, it's misread and then training is not appropriate for the type of dog that is being dealt with and we end up here. Has the dog been evaluated by a trainer that knows the breed? What did they say were the issues? Is this a working line with higher drive?

The answers are not here. Every dog is different. We have no clue what is really going on or leading up to whatever it is because we aren't there.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Last year I worked with a dog like that (Aussie). None of the "positive" stuff worked so I asked his owner if I could try the no-nonsense approach. I just used a martingale collar. We set up a meeting with a neighbor he always snarled at. So the when we met this person and he started to get aroused (ears up and stiff body posture), I told him "Leave It" and had him sit. The light bulb went on and we had a conversation in close proximity to each other. I gave him treats once in a while until we ended the conversation and parted. He has been fine ever since. In this case he just needed rules and leadership to solve his insecurity and his owner's as well. Just another take on this.


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks for the replies so far guys, I'm looking into a behaviorist that will travel to me and my area and hopefully its cost effective. I'll try to answer a few of your questions. He was definitely not looking for food or playing. I use a flirt pole with him daily and know the difference between play and aggression. Also, I have no history of how he was treated 8-14 weeks old other than the man's word. He was a breeder for a search and rescue dogs and my friend knew him so I trusted he did well socializing based on our conversations and meetings. And yes he is from a strong working line, and my trainer has several gsd and malisnois and helps run the schutzhund club as well as her own personal training. Schutzhund didn't align with our goals so we haven't done any of that work, just basic obedience and some task training. Now what I can tell you is he has been in training from 14 weeks on and as I said I worked consistently with him every day to socialize and condition him and it all went very well until about 6 months old, when the incident with my nephew occurred. I realize that I over stressed him when that all happened though. 

So to move on to how my trainer and I have approached it: When guests come over I put him on leash before they arrive and when they pull up I distract him with treats. Trainer said this will allow him to associate positivity with guests. I then keep distracting him with treats as I greet the guest, I hold a treat in my hand as I shake the guests hand and he is too worried about trying to get it than the guest. If he continues to show no bad reactions I continue to distract him with treats. I do this more infrequently the longer the guest stays. IF he shows any bad reaction or tenses up I immediately stop giving him treats and create a bigger space between us and guest until he relaxes again. Again, I'm not sure if this is the best way but it made sense and followed some research I found as well. I trust her as a trainer, so I went with it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This approach usually works well with pet dogs. I also have a WL and around the 6 month mark you will realize that average pet dog training is not always sufficient for these intense dogs.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Happy to hear that you have a pro lined up

I'm just wondering a couple of things, when you witnessed your dog bite.... what was your immediate reaction? What action did you take?

Another, the flirt pole - was that suggested to you as an appropriate tool for dogs with this problem? It will be interesting to hear what the pro has to say. Please share with us if you can, it may help others. Thanks!


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

Wolfy, yeah I was excited to have a working line but may have underestimated the intensity a bit but I'm having great fun with him. I'm going to try and start doing agility and nosework to help build confidence along with the training the new pro will be bringing hopefully (still haven't heard back). 

And stonevintage, so when he bit at my nephew my reaction was to pull him away and put him into submissive position. That was just MY reaction, never having dealt with this before. My trainer, however, said after that this wasn't preferred as it puts an already unconfident dog even lower. So this time I jumped up and grabbed his neck and yelled no and stood between them. Then I put him outside rather quickly so I could clean her wounds. 

Also, the flirt pole was suggested to wear his energy down as I can't go run or anything too intense with my health issues, and to relieve some of his natural drive. Also, as a training tool because he responds very well to it as a rewar.

I'll definitely keep this updated when new training starts. Still, any other opinions or responses will be appreciated


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

Looking for more help, I'm completely lost.

So I'll start at the beginning, I got my gsd puppy from a friend of a friend that breeds and trains search and rescue dogs. He had an accidental litter and went into detail about the socializing and foundation work he had done with the puppies and I received my male, Kodiak, when he was 14 weeks old. He was a very nervy pup when I received him, he defecated when he met my gf and other dog, he was terrified of signs, people, dogs, fire hydrants, just about everything. I worked tirelessly with him. Took him to farmers markets, sporting events, downtown, dog parks, anywhere I went, he went. He showed a lot of improvement and we have come so far in that respect, and became fairly environmentally stable considering where he started, but still spooks easily, but was such a loving boy. Anyway at about 6 months old after spending an entire weekend with my family (which was the first time they met) Kodiak started nipping at my dads feet. Then, as my 3year old nephew was standing next to me on a ledge kicking his feet, Kodiak lunged and grabbed his pants, and I pulled his leash and in turn pulled him down. Nephew was fine, wasn't scared or anything luckily but it was very worrisome. Same weekend he was also scared and barking and growling at a guy with a golf club. Prior to this, he had never reacted this was, if he was scared he would run or get behind me. My initial thoughts were he just wasn't used to kids and their weird movements and a guy swinging a gold club is somewhat strange so he just needed to relieve some drive and some herding instincts, but even with countless hours of training and exercise he still would nip at some people's feet as they came into the house. It was always one or two nips, but not aggressive but didn't seem playful either. So another month later he was walking playfully over to a friend at my house and jumped up happily and wanted him to pet him, but then started showing his teeth, luckily didn't bite. Then seemingly overnight he started growling and getting aggressive with guests coming over. So I started leashing him and put strict rules on the household for guests so I could prepare. I would keep him a distance he wouldn't react and give him commands to distract him, and it started getting better. I began trying to play games to increase his confidence, like letting him win tug games and balance and some nosework. It would come in waves, we would improve for a few weeks then something would happen and would reset it. Anyway, this was contained to just the house and yard at this time, he did fine out and about, although I didn't allow people to pet him anymore obviously. But was comfortable on walks with other people. So when he was 9 or 10 months was the first he actually bit someone. My girlfriends sister came over and had watched him a few times as a puppy and been around him a lot so I was never worried with her there. They did great together for few hours then as she laid back on the couch and kicked her feet up, he lunged and snapped at her leg. I yelled and went to grab him and as I did he became more stressed and grabbed her leg. Luckily he let go quickly and it wasn't as bad as it could've been but I was devastated. I started just putting him in his kennel when people came over as the distraction commands weren't helping and just kept getting more escalated. Well a week later a friend came over and came inside unannounced for whatever reason and he charged and bit her laptop and wouldn't let go. I pried him off and put him away. So far this was all still in the house or yard, but then a few weeks ago he lunged and barked and growled for someone about 5 ft away that was waiting near the sidewalk watching him. Maybe it was the way the guy was staring at Kodiak or his body language but who knows. That was the first and only time outside the home he had shown any aggression. So the most recent incident was a few days ago, after having a few really good weeks and getting him on track a bit and having good interactions with some friends I made the mistake of giving him too much freedom. Kodiak was in the backyard with me, my girlfriend, and another good friend he had been around many times. They did excellent together for an hour or two then as my friend stood up and came over next to me, he moved somewhat strange maybe, to get some fire ants off his shoe, Kodiak attacked him. By the time I could get a good grip he had snapped three times, ripped his pants twice and bit his thigh leaving two puncture wounds.

The most worrisome thing for me is that he hasn't shown any signs of fear or aggression before he attacks. He just snaps. Will be going great then a switch happens. All that being said he is an extremely sweet dog with me and my girlfriend and I know his heart is in the right place. I trust 100% he would never do anything to us. I have spoken and done evaluations with a trainers and behaviorists, and they both said they couldn't help, saying I've tried what they would have already with positive training and in their opinions he needs to be put down. They did both mention that since I haven't tried it and much more intense discipline plan may help with harsh corrections with prong collars and e collars and such may help but they didn't have the expertise for the type of help I'm needing. They both referred me to another very well respected trainer. I spoke with him today (hasn't met the dog, just told him what I'm telling you) and he said he is willing to try but also said on his opinion my Kodiak should be put down. He did say he would try to help me but said 9.9/10 it's a lost cause and no matter the training and the management one day he will hurt someone. And I'm going to throw away tons of money and it probably won't help and I'm putting others in danger. He said no matter how I manage and train, I can't control the people around him and eventually he will get ahold of someone again. Right now I'm not concerned with money, I'm just trying to find some hope for us. These incidents were horrible, but that being said he has had so many good interactions as well. 

I did speak with one more trainer today that specializes in law enforcement dogs and he did give some hope that he could help, but I honestly feel like he evaluated Kodiak wrong. He seems to think its a dominance issue that can we can suppress the reaction with intense training and management, but also felt like he will always be nervy. I don't feel as Kodiak is dominant at all actually, and am worried harsh correction will make things worse. 

I'm lost at what to do, the trainers I've worked with given up on us, and the trainers I've met with for evaluations aren't giving him a chance. I'm leaning towards getting help from this trainer thats 4 hours away, but I'm also worried that it may be irresponsible for me to even try for the sake of people's safety. My boy is only a year old, and I don't want to give up on him! That being said, I would be devastated if he hurt someone else. I realize if I kennel, leash, muzzle, e-collar him to the point he doesn't have any freedom I can greatly limit the chances, but these trainers do make sense when they say you can't control the people he's around to obey the rules. I'm just looking for any advice out there?


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

Gosh you have been going through this for a while now, I'm so sorry, you sound devastated. I had one about 15 years ago that I had to manage. He never bit anyone, but I knew the potential was there. He was fine with me and my daughter, that was all. We got him at 6 months old and he had no socialization what so ever. We (my daughter and I) had very strict rules with him. If people were coming over, he was in his crate in my bedroom behind 2 closed doors, if the visits were going to be extended, over nite guests, he was in his kennel in the backyard with a padlock on it.

Sounds extreme I know but we loved that dog, and I knew he would hurt someone if we messed up. It was work, he only left the property to visit the vet. Sounds like a small existence I know but he was happy with us. And we were happy with him. 

I don't know if the new trainers will be able to help you, but you know that he can hurt someone seriously. He is ok with visitors for a while, then very not. We all want our dogs to be with us and a part of everything but not all dogs can do that. You need to manage better, keep him from these situations. It is stressful to have a dog like this, I know. If you don't want to PTS, you will have to manage strictly.

I do wish you the best.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

you might want to start your own thread so that you can get some answers more easily.


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

well this is the thread I started, but unfortunately since I started it this problem has progressed. I tried to change the title but couldn't figure out a way to edit it.


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## Pb&Nelly (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks for the kind words rosy. I realize I have made some mistakes and understand that strict management is needed here on out, but all these trainers keep telling me no matter the training and management that he's a ticking bomb that will most likely get worse and no matter how cautious someone will slip up in the next 10-15 years. I understand what they're saying and their concerns, and I don't necessarily disagree with them as it has been progressing, but it just seems that such a young dog would have more hope to live a normal life, or at least one where I don't feel like I'm risking the health of an innocent person. It amazes me though that these top trainers and behaviorists are so quick to decide what is best, some with only meeting him once, others not at all and just heard the long version of the story. Although maybe I'm just being hopeful and naive..


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Is this the dog you want to spend the next ten years with? We lost a dog last year that had to be managed. He mellowed as he got older, but we could never have guests over without a lot of prior preparation and work. It disrupted our lives for the entire time we had him. He was a rescue. If you have been working with him steadily for the last six months and he isn't improving or is escalating, you may want to have the conversation with your family about letting him go. In retrospect, although we loved our rescue, had I known what ours lives would be like, I never would have fostered him.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its not that you progressed with what you were doing, its more like you found what would be necessary to live with this dog. Distance, kennels. Managing him that way. Once you tried changing that, he showed you what he is.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A nervy dog that is willing to bite? That is a liability.

Can you manage it? 
Questions: Is there really no warning before an attack? How can you be sure he will not attack people he lives with if he is that unpredictable? If you can predict the attacks, he can be managed. For example, if you know he is not good with children or adults that do not live in your immediate family, ok. Basket muzzle whenever he MIGHT encounter any of them. This means every time you walk out your door with the dog.

If the back yard is fenced, fine let him run there when you are present. 

When you have guests, put him in a kennel in a locked garage, basement, or crate him in a locked bedroom. 

This is not why we have dogs, but if company is only 3% of your life, then the dog can be muzzled or kenneled whenever they are over.

Finding someone who doesn't already claim the dog is a lost cause to train with is probably a good thing. But keep your expectations low, and your effort high and you and he might do a lot better than you think.

If you feel that euthanasia is the right way to go, call your breeder, and have a discussion with him/her first. I don't think anyone should judge you on making this decision. It sounds like you have gone to a number of sources for help with your dog, and you just happen to have a dog with issues that may be beyond what you can go on with.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Sorry you are going through this! it sounds like if you decide to keep the dog, you will be doing serious "managing" for 12 years! If you think something like this wouldn't isolate you because you already mostly keep to yourself, I guess it could work out. If the idea of being isolated depresses you, I would maybe consider putting the dog down. It sounds like more training might teach you how to manage better. Most likely won't change an unpredictable dog into a stable dog. Good luck either way


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

This sounds like a really tough way to live. You need to weigh your quality of life, your dog's quality of life, and your ability to manage this very difficult situation. Dog bites can be deadly. Not every accident can be prevented - someone may come to your door, or your backyard gate, unexpectedly, and the unthinkable can happen. You will be very isolated for a decade in order to preserve a dog's life, which is very noble, but your ability to have children, spend time with family in your home, travel, and live a fulfilling life might be really limited, which in my opinion is not really a reasonable thing to ask of anyone. You have to make the right decision for yourself - and a trainer 4 hours away will not likely be enough to fix this. Just my opinion. Good luck.


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