# Dog Myth on Omnivores or Carnivores



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

My sister was the first to go vegan and I turned vegan for animal cruelty reasons. Then my sister wanted to make my dogs vegan. We had an argument and she went too extreme and turned violent, even threatened to hurt me. Riley my Labradoodle became vegan anyways for non-violence food. He has been a vegan dog since June and does fine with the diet. Talk later


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> My sister was the first to go vegan and I turned vegan for animal cruelty reasons. Then my sister wanted to make my dogs vegan. We had an argument and *she went too extreme and turned violent, even threatened to hurt me*. Riley my Labradoodle became vegan anyways for non-violence food. He has been a vegan dog since June and does fine with the diet. Talk later


Got to love vegans. Such a nice bunch of the peace loving folks...


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Lack of protein I guess.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You should do some research into the dietary requirements of canines, and then make your own decision.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Lobobear44 said:


> We had an argument and she went too extreme and turned violent, even threatened to hurt me. Riley my Labradoodle became vegan anyways for non-violence food.


Where are your parents in all this?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What myth? Dogs are carnivores. You're doing your dog a real disservice pushing your beliefs at the expense of his diet.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Dogs, unlike cats, are capable of surviving, though not necessarily thriving, on a plant based diet. They are very adaptable that way but are designed by nature to eat meat. 

It is pretty obvious by looking at their teeth, understanding their digestive tract and even how they process proteins, carbs, and fats somewhat differently than we do. If you would prefer a vegetarian pet, I would recommend rabbits or goats, both of whom actually have quite the personalities. 

As far as the sister, I am not sure the point or value of adding that information.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

only people like vets who want to sell science diet try to convince people dogs are omnivores 
in reality if a dog was presented with a soy bean or a t-bone steak which do you think the dog will choose?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I have heard of some vegan dogs living near a friend of mine. I need to see what they are actually eating. It is possible they could survive but to do it right may cost a lot or else the dogs may get malnourished or have other issues in later life due to diet. 

I'm sure if you feed a dog on potatoes all it's life it would be healthy enough.

I feed my dogs Raw and kibble 50/50, with rice, fish and potatoes occasionally. I feel a high energy dog needs good food and raw meat meat provides this.

I sometimes wonder, many dogs survive on kibble 80%Maize 20%'animal protein', Would they really be that bad off on veg only.

I've seen the benefits of raw and for over all health, I think a dog should be fed a balanced diet which gives the dog all it needs for a healthy long life.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> As far as the sister, I am not sure the point or value of adding that information.


I thought that was added so that we wouldn't worry about Riley - if he does end up with compromised health because of her personal choices, she'll just go beat up the vet to make sure he's taken care of properly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

While your dog has done "fine" for 6 months, I'd be interested in seeing long term health testing. The results are in the bloodwork and overall health of the animal over many years.

If you want an animal, get a herbivore next time. Rabbits would be good.

And NEVER get a cat. You'll kill it on a vegan diet.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

"Does fine with the diet." is the main quote. What is fine? Fine is an extremely broad word. Most people use fine when they're not doing great, good, but not bad either. Most dogs do "fine" on any food. Its the reason purina, pedigree, ect are so popular. Dogs do "just fine" on those foods. Truth is, you don't understand how your dog is truly doing until you compare it to one just like it but on a different food...so compare two littermates, and check the coat (easy), teeth (need to have professional experience/training), energy level (easy), and other things that have to do with food.

When it comes to food...there are three levels your dog can achieve...fine, bad, and great. If you've never had an issue...fine. If your dog is itching and spewing liquid from every orifice...bad. You found a food that stopped the itching and spewing...great!

Some dogs need specialized food, MOST dogs can get by on pretty much anything out there just fine...

And what others just said...people generally don't connect the amount of vet visits or an earlier death to the food the dog eats. GSD made it to 12? Excellent! But could it have made it to 14 on a better diet? Could you have avoided those 3-4 extra vet visits you might've made throughout the dog's life if you fed it a better diet? Long term effects are generally never connected to day to day decisions, especially when the result you get long term meets expectations.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> As far as the sister, I am not sure the point or value of adding that information.


Exculpation.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am all about my dogs eating healthy, that's why instead of dog treats I give them apples, carrots, lettuce and berries but they also get pieces of beef, chicken and turkey along with their dog food.

I would never attempt to have my dogs on a vegan diet, I wouldn't want to wait and see whether or not the dog would survive or thrive without meat. What if it causes horrible side effects that are irreversible? I could not live with the guilt of knowing that *I* did that to my dog.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I agree that there's a HUGE difference between *surviving* and *thriving*. Dogs may survive on a vegan diet, but they'll never thrive as it's completely unnatural. If a child ate nothing but McDonalds for 10 years they would survive, but they would never be as healthy or thrive as if they had a proper balanced diet.

I have no problem with people being vegan or vegetarian, to each their own and I'll respect your choices as long as you respect mine. It's not a bad thing to agree to disagree on the matter. But to subject an animal with no voice or choice in the matter and force it upon them is cruel, there's a reason why they are built to be carnivores and it's not to have plants fed to them.

If you have a problem with meat, get a herbivore for a pet. That way both parties are happy and there aren't any issues. Otherwise, be a proper guardian (as you seem to like the term) and meet the basic dietary needs of the animal YOU chose to get.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm watching this thread while wearing my Spotted Owl vest


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> My sister was the first to go vegan and I turned vegan for animal cruelty reasons. Then my sister wanted to make my dogs vegan. We had an argument and she went too extreme and turned violent, even threatened to hurt me. Riley my Labradoodle became vegan anyways for non-violence food. He has been a vegan dog since June and does fine with the diet. Talk later



From WebMD..for what it's worth

Dogs and cats process certain nutrients differently than people do. Here are two examples:
*Vitamins A and D:* Dogs and cats cannot make vitamin D in their skin, so it needs to be in their diet. And the vitamin D needs to be D3, which comes from animal sources, not D2, which comes from plant-based sources. “People and dogs can use D2 to some extent, but cats really need D3,” Heinze says.
*Taurine. *Dogs can make taurine if provided the right building blocks through dietary protein. Cats cannot make their own taurine at all, so it is regarded as an essential amino acid in this species and must be present in adequate amounts in the diet. Both species can suffer taurine deficiencies.


The risks of feeding dogs or cats vegetarian or vegan diet include:


Inadequate total protein intake (less than the 25 grams per 1,000 calories recommended)
Imbalance of the certain amino acids, such as taurine and L-carnitine (dogs and cats) or essential fatty acids arachidonic acid (cats only), in particular
Deficiency in vitamins and minerals (such as B vitamins, calcium, phosphorus, and iron) that are obtained ideally, or only, through meat or other animal products
 If allowed to continue long enough, these dietary problems can lead to serious and sometimes irreversible medical conditions. The one veterinarians mention most often is taurine-related dilated cardiomyopathy (enlarged heart with weak contractions and poor pumping ability). Low taurine can also lead to reproductive failures, growth failures, and eye problems.


“People do this to make themselves happy,” says Olson, who worked in psychotherapy before changing careers in the early 1990s. “It’s not about the animal. When people tell me they want to feed a vegan diet, I say, ‘Get a goat, get a rabbit.’”




Good luck.


SuperG


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Green Earth, Good Health for All: Moringa Provides Building Blocks - Amino Acids to Our Body!

Check out all the amino acids in Moringa. 

There are a lot of documentaries on moringa on utube for human nutrition especially in poorer countries where it is hard for people to afford enough food.

It seems like it would fill in a few gaps in a vegi diet even for a dog.


Full nutritional list for Moringa

http://www.nutrition-and-you.com/moringa.html


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mad Lab, it is possible to balance the 8 essential amino acids using grains and legumes without any special supplements...Frances More Lappe Diet for a Small Planet, 1971...... [you know like beans and rice]....after her book came out people realized you did not even need to balance with each meal. Just over all.

...but there are other issues faced by dogs such as lack of the proper enzymes for carbohydrate digestion, proper pH of the stomach etc. Necessary vitamins as mentioned above. Poor ALA conversion to Omega 3s (about which not much was known then), etc.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> Riley my Labradoodle became vegan anyways for non-violence food. He has been a vegan dog since June and does fine with the diet. Talk later


What's non-violence food? Are those carrots that jump out of the ground, grains harvested by kittens?

How do you lower the ph in your garden? I'm just curious, because typically I use egg shells, so where do vegans get the calcium to grow their plants? I'm sincerely curious.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> My sister was the first to go vegan and I turned vegan for animal cruelty reasons. Then my sister wanted to make my dogs vegan. We had an argument and she went too extreme and turned violent, even threatened to hurt me. Riley my Labradoodle became vegan anyways for non-violence food. He has been a vegan dog since June and does fine with the diet. Talk later


She went violent on you? thats so not like a vegan


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

So now we're calling vegan diets "non-violence food". That's cute. 

I am sure you realize that many animals die in the production of vegan food crops. When you have big fields of corn, wheat, soybeans, etc, untold numbers of rodents, rabbits, birds, snakes, etc. die in large machinery when the fields are harvested. Turning natural wild habitat into farmland to feed humans kills off native species because of habitat loss. Animals die on the highway while your vegan food is trucked to the supermarket... shall I go on? I think you get the point.

So I don't think you can really have a "non-violence" diet. It's nature--living things die to feed other living things. You may not like it, but that's reality. At the logical extreme, if you don't want to kill other living beings, you'd have to kill yourself. And no one wants that.

I heard an interesting program on NPR the other day about how plants have senses, and may in fact feel something akin to pain. They certainly react to harmful stimuli. Even if you are a vegan, you're killing (and possibly hurting) living things. On the flipside, there are many living creatures that would kill and eat us, given the chance... creatures as tiny and seemingly insignificant as bacteria and viruses can kill human beings. And they make no bones about it. Bacteria and viruses have to make a living, too.


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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> What myth? Dogs are carnivores. You're doing your dog a real disservice pushing your beliefs at the expense of his diet.


That. Exactly. Dogs are not vegetarians or vegans. Just look at their teeth - they do not have the flat molars for grinding up plant materials.


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## My5dogs (Aug 30, 2013)

No meat for a dog?? Step back and look at the big picture here. You are feeding a dog your diet??


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Dogs can actually do okay on a vegan diet, provided they get enough of the protein and nutrients their bodies require. I talked to some people who just went to Nepal on a veterinary mission, and most of the dogs there are fed vegetarian diets--rice, lentils, bread, etc. The lucky ones get some milk and eggs. But the dogs seemed to be okay on that diet. Not in prime condition, mind you, but they were surviving.

Cats are a different story. Cats are obligate carnivores, meaning they *require* animal protein, and nutrients that come only from animal sources. People who have tried to feed their cats vegetarian diets end up with blind, neurological and diseased cats. It's really sad.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That kind of goes back to the question that was skirted yesterday of "where do you draw the line"


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

veganism isn't even healthy for humans. If humans were just like every other animal and didn't have agriculture or a vast transportation system to ship foods from lands thousands of miles away, I can guess there wouldn't be any vegans walking around. None would get a varied enough diet to be even remotely healthy.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Im confused at the point of this thread. And, I don't understand why anyone would want their dog to eat a vegan diet. People who are vegans usually have a lot of deficiencies and issues...I mean. Some things just need meat. In no way is a dog a vegetarian, or even an omnivore. 

Anyways, I will continue to enjoy my 'violent' food. 

No matter what you do, things are always gonna die, thats how the world works. Its the circle of life.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

No. Give your sister a snake and watch what happens when it comes time to feed him.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

alexg said:


> Got to love vegans. Such a nice bunch of the peace loving folks...


Lmao...that's exactly what I was thinking.

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## My5dogs (Aug 30, 2013)

I can't live without a good steak and burger 


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

My5dogs said:


> I can't live without a good steak and burger
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


@My5dogs

When I past by Factory Farms on the road I smell blood. The air is stinky with smog across the sky of dark blood. Can't breathe at all with poisnosness blood scent through the air. I am scared too death seeing in front of my eyes persons waiting in line for death. Want to immediately hug my dog, two German shepherds, those huskies, dog park dogs, and tell them how much I appreciate them being alive. If I say a comparison may sound too extreme to the majority will not understand. Tears roll down. Want to immediately hug my dog, two German shepherds, those huskies, dog park dogs, and tell them how much I appreciate them being alive. Tell them that I will protect them with my very life. Will someday make a difference in the world for them. That is because I am scared horrified passing by knowing what is going on. Why eat a cow, pig, chicken and not a dog? Would you be surprise if the hamburger was a dog? You know Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr would've done something about animal rights if they weren't shot. So they left somebody else to finish their left over work. That is ME!


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## robeangyalchen (Aug 11, 2013)

Freestep said:


> Dogs can actually do okay on a vegan diet, provided they get enough of the protein and nutrients their bodies require. I talked to some people who just went to Nepal on a veterinary mission, and most of the dogs there are fed vegetarian diets--rice, lentils, bread, etc. The lucky ones get some milk and eggs. But the dogs seemed to be okay on that diet. Not in prime condition, mind you, but they were surviving.
> 
> Cats are a different story. Cats are obligate carnivores, meaning they *require* animal protein, and nutrients that come only from animal sources. People who have tried to feed their cats vegetarian diets end up with blind, neurological and diseased cats. It's really sad.


Yep, i can vouch for that. Well, you see, they are just surviving, and most of the dogs i shelter or stray in Nepal might look okay but they are literally surviving. 
Some of the shelter, if they have funds coming from abroad, or with some connections with rich dog lovers who donates in monthly basis feeds their dog meat once a week or twice at most. They seems to be doing fine, not great, fine. Keep in mind, in Nepal we eat "Dal and Bhat" rice and lentils, so they do get a little protein form lentils. I guess


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We sometimes have people come on the forum from India; many who do not eat meat for religious reasons and are masters of a human vegetarian diet (though I think not as often vegan). After health and growth problems with their dogs, most resort to raising their dogs on a meat based diet and not grudgingly, but because it is the nature of the dog and they have to take extra measures to find such a diet over there.

I find the analysis that Lincoln and MLK would move on to animal rights somewhat disturbing and unsupported by known fact. The closest I could find is MLK's wife became a vegetarian in 1995, well after his death. Please do not try to muddy their legacy and downplay it as incomplete. 

Another concern I have is the violence you have reported in dreams of fighting side by side with dogs, dogs killing to save your life and vice versa, the comment on your sister etc. I will respect a true pacifist who will die for their cause but not one who claims to be nonviolent towards all life (many Buddhists are that way) then would kill/fight for that privilege.

I have concerns with factory farming as I feel it is not natural or good for the animals or the meat they produce and can be very cruel. My desire is to be situated to feed more game animals, we already do eat grass fed beef and dairy, and pasture raised chicken. But, as mentioned, many animals die as the result of factory farming of land. You have no cut off as to what is and is not "people" and it appears do not care to address that.

Have you ever watched a cat kill a mouse? A hawk take a rabbit? How do you reconcile the order of nature? And there are vegetarian choices for pets! Horses, goats, rabbits. Seriously, Goats are an absolute hoot. Pigs-reputed to be more intelligent than dogs and true omninvores who *can* thrive on a vegetarian diet (though they most assuredly will eat meat with gusto).


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> You know Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr would've done something about animal rights if they weren't shot. So they left somebody else to finish their left over work. That is ME!


That is actually one of the most disgusting things I have ever read, do not equate yourself to these people or think for one minute your actions behind a keyboard spouting incorrect, often invented facts puts you anywhere on par with these people.

Where do your vegetables come from and how are they fertilized? I have been a vegetarian many times in my life, mostly for health reasons and while I do not agree with factory farming and I sincerely doubt you would be able to tell a factory farm from a regular farm, I believe they need to do better for the animals involved. However factory farms are not exclusive to the production of meat, they grow vegetables too. I compost my plant-based materials and even with my small garden which does not carry us the entire year, I do not produce enough compost and without my sheep tea would not be able to restore my soil, so Lobobear, how do you do it. Do you exclusively use human excrement? To you buy from vegetarian farms and if so, I mean I usually like to know where my food comes from, how do they fertilize? Because even animal excrement fetilizer has a science to it, you don't go wandering around picking up feces and poop comes from farms. I sincerely hope you aren't spouting these Holier than Thou comments and munching on carrots from a grocery store - because guess what, you are supporting factory farming and the killing of animals. So unless you have sourced a vegan/vegetarian supermarket, you need to knock it off. There are lots of vegetarians and vegans on this board, you are not unique, but the difference is, members respect them, because they know of what they speak, they have the research, real world experience to back up statements.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If you ever talk with heroes and great people. Most of them don't seem to have entertained visions of their own greatness. Lobobear, you intent to be the savior of animals, and the next dog whisperer, and have great visions and dreams of battles with dogs as your partners. I doubt Lincoln and MLK stood in front of a mirror wondering about how great they were. Same with Ghandi and other visionaries. I think to most people with vision, such things don't really matter. 

How about just coming to grips with your own values, quietly exploring them, and humbly coming to whatever way of life matches your vision.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

hahhahahhaha. Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Sick, disturbed kid...


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

Wondering if the injustices of our homeless (many of them veterans who fought and sacrificed for Lobobear's right to crow on Internet forums, saying whatever they please) freezing and starving out in the streets invoke the same torrent of emotions, as well?
As for the veganism, I will respect to my death your right to pursue your ideals, but I cannot be personally convinced that it is (from a biological standpoint) an ideal and appropriate diet for either humans or dogs. I spend about an hour or so out of my work week explaining to vegans who are considering converting their dogs or cats to vegan diets why they would be doing their pet a disservice by doing so. And it makes me feel bad to tell them basically that their lifestyle may or will be harmful to their animal, it doesn't make me feel bad enough to forsake what I feel, know and have personally experienced to spare some feelings at the expense of that dog or cat.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

*breaks out popcorn* please continue.

The only way to control the amount of "violence" in your food is to produce it yourself or buy it from someone you know well.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I certainly hope you don't have access to firearms.

You need mental help.


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## My5dogs (Aug 30, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> @My5dogs
> 
> When I past by Factory Farms on the road I smell blood. The air is stinky with smog across the sky of dark blood. Can't breathe at all with poisnosness blood scent through the air. I am scared too death seeing in front of my eyes persons waiting in line for death. Want to immediately hug my dog, two German shepherds, those huskies, dog park dogs, and tell them how much I appreciate them being alive. If I say a comparison may sound too extreme to the majority will not understand. Tears roll down. Want to immediately hug my dog, two German shepherds, those huskies, dog park dogs, and tell them how much I appreciate them being alive. Tell them that I will protect them with my very life. Will someday make a difference in the world for them. That is because I am scared horrified passing by knowing what is going on. Why eat a cow, pig, chicken and not a dog? Would you be surprise if the hamburger was a dog? You know Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr would've done something about animal rights if they weren't shot. So they left somebody else to finish their left over work. That is ME!


Ummmm wow...I have only skimmed thru a few of your posts. That's all I need to read to make an observation..you're taking over MLK's job??


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> I certainly hope you don't have access to firearms.
> 
> You need mental help.


Okay that is too extreme. All of you think you know everything, more of a know-it-all than any teen, you put me down and you are adults. You think you are adults give you the right to power over me and discriminate me? Shame many of do need help. You put me down because my philosophy is different I think different. I am not at all putting down your views you are putting down mine. Stop ganging up on me. Ugh you people are really disturbing. You know what someone just terminate my account these people are so disturbing. And no firearms is way too extreme I am against violence. Those suffering in factory farms are suffering worse than slave labor cows, pigs, chickens, and others are dying for crying out loud.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> You know Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr would've done something about animal rights if they weren't shot. So they left somebody else to finish their left over work. That is ME!


 Grandiose delusions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Grandiose delusions
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
Patients suffering from grandiose delusions wrongly hold themselves at an extraordinary high status in their mind.


*Grandiose delusions* (GD) or *delusions of grandeur* is principally a subtype of delusional disorder that occurs in patients suffering from a wide range of mental illnesses, including two-thirds of patients in manic state of bipolar disorder, half of those with schizophrenia and a substantial portion of those with substance abuse disorders.[1][2] GDs are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme. There is a relative lack of research into GD, in comparison to persecutory delusions and auditory hallucinations. About 10% of healthy people experience grandiose thoughts but do not meet full criteria for a diagnosis of GD.[2]


Prevalence[edit]

Research suggests that the severity of the delusions of grandeur is directly related to a higher self-esteem in individuals and inversely related to any individual’s severity of depression and negative self-evaluations.[3] Lucas _et al._ found that there is no significant gender difference in the establishment of grandiose delusion. However, there is a claim that ‘the particular component of Grandiose delusion’ may be variable across both genders.[2] Also, it had been noted that the presence of GDs in people with at least grammar or high school education was greater than lesser educated persons. Similarly, the presence of grandiose delusions in individuals who are the eldest is greater than in individuals who are the youngest of their siblings.[4]
*Symptoms[edit]*

According to the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria for delusional disorder, grandiose-type symptoms include grossly exaggerated belief of:


self-worth 
power[5] 
knowledge 
identity 
exceptional relationship to a divinity or famous person.[6]
 For example, a patient who has fictitious beliefs about his or her power or authority may believe himself or herself to be a ruling monarch who deserves to be treated like royalty.[7] There are substantial differences in the degree of grandiosity linked with grandiose delusions in different patients. Some patients believe they are God, the Queen of England, a president's son, a famous rock star, and so on. Others are not as expansive and think they are skilled sports-persons or great inventors.[8]
*Expansive delusions[edit]*

Expansive delusions may be maintained by auditory hallucinations, which advise the patient that they are significant, or confabulations, when, for example, the patient gives a thorough description of their coronation or marriage to the king. Grandiose and expansive delusions may also be part of fantastic hallucinosis in which all forms of hallucinations occur.[8]
*Positive functions[edit]*

Grandiose delusions frequently serve a very positive function for the person of sustaining or increasing their self-esteem. As a result, it is important to consider what the consequences of removing the grandiose delusion are on self-esteem when trying to modify the grandiose delusion in therapy.[5] In many instances of grandiosity it is suitable to go for a fractional rather than a total modification, which permits those elements of the delusion that are central for self-esteem to be preserved. For example, a man who believes he is a senior secret service agent gains a great sense of self-esteem and purpose from this belief, thus until this sense of self-esteem can be provided from elsewhere, it is best not to attempt modification.[5]
*Accounts of delusion[edit]*

There are two alternative accounts for getting grandiose delusions:[9]


Delusion-as-defense account: defense of the mind against lower self-esteem and depression 
Emotion-consistent account: result of exaggerated emotions.
 *Epidemiology[edit]*

In researching over 1000 individuals of vast backgrounds, Stompe and colleagues (2006) found that grandiosity remains as the second most common delusion after persecutory delusions.[2] A variation in the occurrence of grandiosity delusions in schizophrenic patients across cultures has also been observed.[10][11] In research done by Appelbaum _et al._ it has been found that GDs appeared more commonly in patients with bipolar disorder (59%) than in patients with schizophrenia (49%), followed by presence in substance misuse disorder patients (30%) and depressed patients (21%).[2]
A relationship has been claimed between the age of onset of bipolar disorder and the occurrence of GDs. According to Carlson _et al._ (2000), grandiose delusions appeared in 74% of the patients who were 21 or lower at the time of the onset, while they occurred only in 40% of individuals 30 years or older at the time of the onset.[2]"


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lobobear, you are fortunate you do not use your real name and this nonsense won't follow you around later. Just walk away if you want to leave; you know these posts you are making incite this kind of discussion. Ask the admin to remove your email address as directed and nobody will be the wiser.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Nancy, if you don't want to hear criticisms STOP posting here, you are just aggravating your own situation.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lobobear, you're obviously a kid with a lot of passion and energy. Direct it in a positive way, and maybe you could make a difference for the better. Keep going in the direction you are leaning, and you'll end up in jail (or worse). Your anti-establishment views are nothing new... pretty much every teenager has them at some point. Stay in school, keep reading, study biology and animal behavior (preferably science-based), and keep your nose clean. Try not to profess things as fact when they are simply your opinion, stay humble, and accept that you don't know it all just yet. You could go far with your passion, but it must be tempered with reality, or you will be labeled as a "kook" and only other kooks will listen to you.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Freestep excellent post, but I'm thinking it will go in one ear and out the other..


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Because there is nothing to absorb it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Freestep excellent post, but I'm thinking it will go in one ear and out the other..


 Yes, probably. I was the same way as a teenager. I wouldn't listen to what my elders told me, I figured there was no way they could "understand"... that my experience was so different and unique that no one could possibly relate.

I did remember what I was told, though. Years later in thinking back, I realize some of those elders were spot-on, and I could have saved myself a lot of trouble if I had listened and heeded their advice. But everyone learns their lessons differently, I was one who simply had to learn the hard way--through my own experience. Thankfully, I did not get into too much trouble along the way, but I took some hard knocks that I don't wish on anyone.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

MichaelE said:


> Because there is nothing to absorb it.


 Let's not insult the poor kid. That doesn't help. I don't think he's stupid or brainless, just misguided at the moment, and a bit too emotional in his thinking. I wonder what his parents are doing in all this.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

Freestep said:


> Yes, probably. I was the same way as a teenager. I wouldn't listen to what my elders told me, I figured there was no way they could "understand"... that my experience was so different and unique that no one could possibly relate.
> 
> I did remember what I was told, though. Years later in thinking back, I realize some of those elders were spot-on, and I could have saved myself a lot of trouble if I had listened and heeded their advice. But everyone learns their lessons differently, I was one who simply had to learn the hard way--through my own experience. Thankfully, I did not get into too much trouble along the way, but I took some hard knocks that I don't wish on anyone.


I think there's a difference between being a typical teenager who knows it all and doesn't want to be a conformist, and a teenager who stalks their neighbors dog, obsessively posts on an internet forum about said dog that they don't own, truly seems to believe themself to be the next MLK and Lincoln, calls themself a ninja, etc etc. This kid is either a really hilarious troll, or has serious mental issues.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lobobear44 said:


> Okay that is too extreme. All of you think you know everything, more of a know-it-all than any teen, you put me down and you are adults. You think you are adults give you the right to power over me and discriminate me? Shame many of do need help. You put me down because my philosophy is different I think different. I am not at all putting down your views you are putting down mine. Stop ganging up on me. Ugh you people are really disturbing. You know what someone just terminate my account these people are so disturbing. And no firearms is way too extreme I am against violence. Those suffering in factory farms are suffering worse than slave labor cows, pigs, chickens, and others are dying for crying out loud.


Just an observation...this is the first post Lobobear made where there are no blatant typos, grammatical errors, internet shorthand, and just seems to be written in good English for once...kind of weird...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think it is adjusting to an itnernet world. Many of us grew up with no internet and direct consequences for your actions and words. Now everything is anonymous and there are no real consequences. Sure you can get banned or chastised but, really? 

I am very glad my grandaughters' time on the internet is severely limited by my own kids and they don't have phones yet, even though one is a tween.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm not the grammar police, but I can see quite a few errors. All I can say is that I'm very very relieved that when I was this guy's age, there was no internet, lol. I agree 100% with Freestep. I was like this too - very passionate, and oh so unique in my thinking. What a wake-up call I got. Live and learn.

ETA: I know his posts can be aggravating, but he's much safer here - he could be getting into some very radical trouble elsewhere. He's just the type they're looking for. Let's cut him some slack.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Just an observation...this is the first post Lobobear made where there are no blatant typos, grammatical errors, internet shorthand, and just seems to be written in good English for once...kind of weird...


There's a few lurking in there, especially in the first couple of sentences


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Just an observation...this is the first post Lobobear made where there are no blatant typos, grammatical errors, internet shorthand, and just seems to be written in good English for once...kind of weird...


Let me guess - new meds, off the meds?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

People think I am crazy, which I am, so maybe I can try to connect with Lobobear. :crazy:

I am a ninja as well, I have mad skills with a katana and in my spare time I practice my ninjitsu.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LoveEcho said:


> There's a few lurking in there, especially in the first couple of sentences


I know there are some...but its way better than what I've been reading over the past few weeks. I gave the benefit of the doubt to someone that grew up in the "internet age" and really didn't care about grammar when posting online...the twitter generation...kind of didn't want to believe there are 18 year olds out there that can't write a decent paragraph. But just seeing that one makes me think something was up for the previous few weeks...

And I want to add, I also grew up in the internet age, only have a few years on Lobo, but I can't stand when people try to have discussions and forget simple grammar rules. It really increases the chances of a misunderstanding...which are already high as we're all typing/reading and not communicating in person. Personally (and I know Lobo doesn't do this, but I see too many people that do), it takes me a shorter time to type out "are" then to think and type out "r" instead.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Lobobear, you're obviously a kid with a lot of passion and energy. Direct it in a positive way, and maybe you could make a difference for the better.... Try not to profess things as fact when they are simply your opinion, stay humble, and accept that you don't know it all just yet. You could go far with your passion, but it must be tempered with reality...


Excellent post Freestep.

OP, many of us are concerned about factory farming practices. Below is a link with a list of tangible and practical things you can do to get involved.

Note, the first step is to learn more about the issue - look at the science, research studies, the regulatory environment, international comparisons, etc... not just the stories. I would also suggest you connect with people in your community who are engaged in some of the activities listed.

10 Ways You Can Fight Factory Farms | ASPCA


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

you're not a ninja, Katana is the weapon of the Samuri


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

crackem said:


> you're not a ninja, Katana is the weapon of the Samuri


I've seen ninjas with katanas! I am one! 

Quit trying to knock me off my dragon.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> I'm not the grammar police, but I can see quite a few errors.


 Me too. And I *am* the Grammar Police.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

:headbang::headbang::headbang:

Off topic:

Maybe it's just me, but has any one considered that Lobobear is a bullied/brainwashed kid. Lobobear has made several references to a sister that seems to tell him what to think and how to think it. There has been mention of violence in the home toward him by his sister. 
Calling names and ridicule may be what this kid lives with everyday. 

Do I think Lobobear needs help? I do. The question remains: Is it for us, not knowing him in the real world, to say what kind or type of help that is?
I think not. 

I do think, however, while this is an open forum, we don't have to keep indulging him with this type of non productive banter. We are mostly adults here and it doesn't bode well for adults to be name calling and ridiculing a child in the name of educating him. 

Hopefully common sense will eventually prevail. 

Just my 2 cents


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Springbrz said:


> :headbang::headbang::headbang:
> 
> Off topic:
> 
> ...



The thing is, the OP isn't a child (providing he didn't lie about his age, which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest)...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Springbrz said:


> I do think, however, while this is an open forum, we don't have to keep indulging him with this type of non productive banter. We are mostly adults here and it doesn't bode well for adults to be name calling and ridiculing a child in the name of educating him.


EXACTLY. A bunch of adults beating up on a teenage kid? Bad form. It's stuff like that that makes kids go crazy and shoot up their school.

Of course he needs help, all kids need help. He might just be a typically emotional, overdramatic teen, or he might be seriously troubled, or he may just be trying to get a rise out of people. We don't know. But just in case he's for real, I think it behooves us to treat him with compassion and understanding even if we disagree with his philosophy. Come on, how much common sense did any of us have at this age? 

Kids need guidance, not to be insulted, bullied, shamed, or hurt. Lobobear could use a dose of humility, and I'm sure he will get it one way or another. I just hope it doesn't happen to him on the streets or in prison.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> The thing is, the OP isn't a child (providing he didn't lie about his age, which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest)...


 Sorry, I'm an old fart (50 ). I consider 18 to be a child for the most part. Especially when talking about todays children/young adults, as they have for the most part, been raised so differently then those of my generation. 

Still it would be refreshing, especially with this OP, that comments stay on topic of the thread. 
I don't see how name calling/ridicule is productive to any thread post. 

Again, just my 2 cents. 

That said: I believe my dog to be a carnivore and if she chooses to munch on fruits and veges I won't stop her.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Isn't Lobo 12 or 14? It's entirely possible that there could be some mental health issues at work here, or at the very least, a lot of living and learning left to do.

Great post Freestyle and LifeofRiley, thanks for posting those links.

Lobo, I think your heart is in the right place, but you need some guidance. It's great that you are so passionate, but I think as Freestyle said, you need to balance that with reality and science. 

I think most agree about the factory farming. But you can help change that. Vote with your feet. Support locally raised meat farmers, who's animals live free range and happy lives. 

Your dog is not a vegetarian. I think that by feeding them this way, you are depriving them of a species appropriate diet, and I think it's a form of negligence. If you can't stand the thought of your pet eating meat, then I think you should consider owning pets that are vegetarian by nature, and there are a lot to choose from! 

Nature is both beautiful and brutal. Nobody likes to see an animal lose its life, but it's all part of the circle of life, and you have to appreciate these animals for what they are. I have a dog, I also have horses. I wouldn't dream of trying to feed my horses a lump of meat for their supper, it would be totally inappropriate to their dietary needs, but then I would also not feed a dog a vegetarian diet for the same reasons. We can't all be vegetarians and we can't all be carnivores. There is a balance in nature, it's all about balance.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Lolobear, I think you'd really enjoy reading Temple Grandin's _Animals in Translation_. She shares some of your beliefs, and she's actually done something about it. Check it out.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Springbrz said:


> Sorry, I'm an old fart (50 ). I consider 18 to be a child for the most part. Especially when talking about todays children/young adults, as they have for the most part, been raised so differently then those of my generation.
> 
> Still it would be refreshing, especially with this OP, that comments stay on topic of the thread.
> I don't see how name calling/ridicule is productive to any thread post.
> ...


I could see that... teens are definitely maturing slower than when I was one. Though, when I was teaching not that long ago I taught kids the OP's age, and even the ones who needed to do the most...maturing... weren't like this. I think that's why I jumped to "mental/developmental issues"... which only reinforces your point that the name calling, etc, is not good. Regardless of the situation- if it's a troll, stop feeding it. If it's not, it's clearly someone with issues, so don't bully.

Edit: Blanketback, I thought the same thing.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

LaRen616 said:


> People think I am crazy, which I am, so maybe I can try to connect with Lobobear. :crazy:
> 
> I am a ninja as well, I have mad skills with a katana and in my spare time I practice my ninjitsu.


Creepy


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## belladonnalily (May 24, 2013)

I thought the OP was all about letting dogs be who they wanted to be? Why wouldn't the OP put out a vegan dinner and a meat dinner and then let the dog choose? After all, why should an awful human dictate what the dog eats?

Seems like a terrible violation of animal rights, if you ask me...

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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I don't understand why people keep getting upset with OP, it's like the Westboro Baptist Church...you will NEVER be able to reason with them, so the best thing is to ignore them and wait for them to implode on their own. If everyone would just stop posting on the multiple threads he creates, everything would stop.

That being said, is it just me or is this 100% de ja vu. Didn't we have this exact same discussion about carnivores, cat's dying from vegan diets, etc...last time OP was active.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I'll drop one thought and leave it there, because I really don't see much point in this discussion, personally.

But the one thought... it would be nice if people would stop the mental illness shaming. "Off his meds" type comments are really beneath rational adults who know, or should know, that mental illness is not a character flaw but a disease.

So maybe knock that stuff off and continue OT? 

TIA from the mother of a son with severe PTSD


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

^^ This ^^


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Thank you GrammaD! Nice way to bring some common sense back to the discussion.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

GrammaD said:


> I'll drop one thought and leave it there, because I really don't see much point in this discussion, personally.
> 
> But the one thought... it would be nice if people would stop the mental illness shaming. "Off his meds" type comments are really beneath rational adults who know, or should know, that mental illness is not a character flaw but a disease.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> Thank you GrammaD! Nice way to bring some common sense back to the discussion.


@Castlemaid

Can you please take me out of this forum. I'm no good at forums just all I am professional at are dogs.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> Thank you GrammaD! Nice way to bring some common sense back to the discussion.


@Castlemaid

Can you please take me out of this forum. I'm no good at forums just all I am professional at are dogs and a true nonhuman animal whisperer. That is my real self


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> @Castlemaid
> 
> Can you please take me out of this forum. I'm no good at forums just all I am professional at are dogs.


You have asked about this before. The answer is the same. Accounts are not closed and/or deleted. It is up to the owner (YOU) of the account to decide to not log in again.

What you can do is remove details from your account, then simply don't log again afterwards.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

It's super simple. STOP POSTING. TURN OFF THE COMPUTER. You're an adult (18, right?) so take responsibility for yourself.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Twyla said:


> You have asked about this before. The answer is the same. Accounts are not closed and/or deleted. It is up to the owner (YOU) of the account to decide to not log in again.
> 
> What you can do is remove details from your account, then simply don't log again afterwards.


He can be banned...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, but even banning does not delete their account. It just bans them from posting.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Yes, but even banning does not delete their account. It just bans them from posting.


Right, but it will stop (as he asked) the OP from creating NEW bizarre threads on this forum.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

I can't stand seeing cut up vegetables and promotions including plant like substances being pushed to feed your dog. What part of huge canines and none grinding teeth/jaw do people not understand? Nature has provided every being everything it needs to survive and their bodies act accordingly. Just by looking at the structure/makeup of an animal you can tell what their function/purpose is for. Why do we have to mess that up? Its healthier to go the way nature intended! IMO


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I can't stand seeing cut up vegetables and promotions including plant like substances being pushed to feed your dog. What part of huge canines and none grinding teeth/jaw do people not understand? Nature has provided every being everything it needs to survive and their bodies act accordingly. Just by looking at the structure/makeup of an animal you can tell what their function/purpose is for


Dogs have been fed table scraps for centuries. It is scientifically proven that dogs have enzymes in their stomachs to digest starches. This shows that they have adapted to having vegetables in their diet.

Dogs do like cooked potatoes and other cooked vegetables and some like raw veg like carrots etc. Fact is there is some nutritional value in vegetables and vegetarian foods. There is also a lot of fiber for digestion.

I bring my dogs into nature every day and see them eating grass and seaweed and cow dung. They get their nutrients from nature. Why do they eat that stuff sometimes? It certainly isn't bad for them.

I feed raw meat/kibble 50/50 with cooked veg or rice occasionally. I feel that is a balanced diet.

Look at all kibble out there. It is all part grain/veg filler.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDluver4lyfe said:


> I can't stand seeing cut up vegetables and promotions including plant like substances being pushed to feed your dog. What part of huge canines and none grinding teeth/jaw do people not understand? Nature has provided every being everything it needs to survive and their bodies act accordingly. Just by looking at the structure/makeup of an animal you can tell what their function/purpose is for. Why do we have to mess that up? Its healthier to go the way nature intended! IMO


 Good point, but by that logic, all humans should be vegetarians since we don't have large gripping canines and tearing carnassials.

Many people have used this fact to espouse vegetarianism as our "natural" diet, but it was discovered fairly recently that chimpanzees, with teeth structure similar to ours, do hunt, kill and eat other animals.

Studies have also suggested that humans took a huge jump in brain size when cooked animal protein was added to the diet.

The fact is, the digestive tract can evolve much quicker than the teeth. Take Pandas, for example. They have big canines and you would expect them to be meat eaters, but their diet is primarily bamboo. 

I agree that dogs need animal protein to be in prime condition, but they can make use of plant material for nutrients and energy and do not require animal protein the way cats do. You have to look at more than just teeth.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Dogs are classified by the Merck Veterinary Manual as omnivores (like bears and like pigs and like us). Not as herbivores (like most rodents, cattle, deer, goats). Not as carnivores (like cats, and birds of prey).

We do know the design though of their digestive tract. The fact that they do not chew food. The fact that they do not produce salivary amylase and do better with kibble if digestive enzymes are added. The fact they don't face the same artherosclerosis issues as do we on a high fat diet and their are plenty of excercise studies showing more endurance and better homeostasis on a high fat high protein diet.. We do know the stomach pH is much more acidic than our own. We do know domestic canines have more adaptation to eating grains than do wild canids but there is overlap. 

Yes a dog can survive on a grain/vegetable based diet. It is simply not optimal.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I started posting on forums when I was 13 and I was *definitely* crazy kooky bonkers at that age. I can't believe the kinds of utterly ridiculous things I said. You all would laugh yourselves sick if you knew. OP may lack the self-control to stop posting if the underlying reason is self-validation. It can be addicting. Although talking about inner psychological states on the Internet is risky business...

@jocoyn, do you have citations or partial citations for those exercise studies? I'm trying to make a bibliography on diet research right now.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No-talking from memory but they were peer reviewed articles; some on sled dogs others on racing greyhounds. I think Hills did some of them. Mind you, they did a lot of foundational research on nutrition.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> No-talking from memory but they were peer reviewed articles; some on sled dogs others on racing greyhounds. I think Hills did some of them. Mind you, they did a lot of foundational research on nutrition.


Thanks, those are enough keywords for me to find them. I will post the bibliography when it is finished if there is any interest.


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