# When people come on saying they want to breed their untitled dog because...



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I read a few topics where people came on here wanting to breed their family dogs because they want to experience life or because they love their dog so much that they want a piece of him. 

The fact that the same excuses are being repeated over and over again probably means that most of the dog owners had these thoughts at one time or another. 

I know I did. I stopped short of going back to the same puppy mill I bought my dog from to get a bitch so I can breed them down the line (my reasons were both of the above). 

Then, as I read more and more about dogs and training, I learned of everything that goes into breeding and the shelter situation and I decided I will never breed. 

I'm lucky for the fact this happened before I came on this board and that always lurk before joining a board so i'd see all these threads, otherwise it could've been me posting a topic like this and being attacked. 

Even though I now get the same strong feelings everyone does when I hear of people breeding their family dogs I still realize that most of the time they're not doing it to be malicious, they're just ignorant. So you're not helping anything by asking them the 'fight' questions (are they titled, hip certified, etc) so that you can then jump on them and judge them. 

Anyone being attacked will defend themselves, they won't admit they're wrong just because that means being defeated even if they'd agree with your reasoning otherwise. 

Shouldn't you politely, with no hint of condescension, explain to them that this is not the best way of doing it and explain why that is the case? 


And a few more notes. In the park I go to I met at least another 4 dogs that came from the same puppy mill area my dog came from. 2 of them (gsd sisters) have been bred, one had 16 pups. I can't help but to feel a little annoyed at their ignorance but I always remember it could've been me. After all, I own 2 intact cats (used to be 3, a male and 2 females) and I got them with the intent of 'experiencing life'. For some weird reason 7 years later there are no kittens and at this point I'm thankful, but this definitely could've been me. 

But even if I never bred and never thought about it, who am I (or anyone for that matter) to judge?

And one last thing, there are lots of people (myself included) opposed to spaying/neutering. Anytime I see a comment like 'spay your female and enjoy her as a pet' I get annoyed and I'm sure the posters feel the same way. After all, if their dogs are uncut they're probably not too fond of the idea either. So why does it have to be breed or neuter/spay? Did you know that some people only want to breed because they're opposed to spaying/neutering but thought they must let an intact dog breed otherwise they couldn't keep him/her intact? So you're only reinforcing this notion. If I had a choice between neutering/spaying and breeding i'd breed, I'm that much opposed to neutering/spaying and I'm not alone who feels this way. 

Sorry, this is long, but I felt like saying something after reading all these threads. You can consider this coming from the 'other side'. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Although this has been brought up countless times before, the biggest issue is how to lightly or nicely tell someone that their dog shouldn't be bred. How...without putting them or their dog down...do you explain to someone why their dog doesn't deserve to pass on their genes.

The truth is, unless they get out into the dog world and figure it out themselves...nothing we say will make a difference. And on top of that, I don't believe that experiencing life is the true reason. The real reason is usually the understanding that you can make $500 a puppy and at 10 puppies a litter that's $5000 for 6-8 weeks of cuteness around your house.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Although this has been brought up countless times before, the biggest issue is how to lightly or nicely tell someone that their dog shouldn't be bred. How...without putting them or their dog down...do you explain to someone why their dog doesn't deserve to pass on their genes.
> 
> The truth is, unless they get out into the dog world and figure it out themselves...nothing we say will make a difference. And on top of that, I don't believe that experiencing life is the true reason. The real reason is usually the understanding that you can make $500 a puppy and at 10 puppies a litter that's $5000 for 6-8 weeks of cuteness around your house.


All the topics have been brought up before, once or more. All the books written these days are more less a repeat of something written before. So I should stop posting? 

And yes you don't have to put someone's dog down to explain why he shouldn't pass his genes on. But that wasn't even my point, there are different ways of saying things and there IS a way to be decent and polite about it and actually when you are - it makes people want to hear what you're saying. 

If you're rude - the first reflex is to disagree.

Also, it's not true that no matter what you say makes a difference, I've seen people change their minds here. But if you're right and no matter what you say makes a diff, then why do you guys reply? Just to diss a dog for the sake of it?


As far as experiencing life not being a true reason - again you're wrong. I wanted to breed my cats. The most i'd get is 20$ a kitten if I sold them. I'd give them away though. 

So you really never know why people do what they do. 


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm just wondering how you've lived this long with intact queens without strangling them. 

Some people will get their knickers in a twist no matter how politely you give them the reasons they shouldn't breed their pet. And for a vast majority of people, spaying and neutering is the best thing for them to do.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lalachka said:


> All the topics have been brought up before, once or more. All the books written these days are more less a repeat of something written before. So I should stop posting?


Nope, exactly the opposite. If you still have the patience to tackle that subject with diplomacy and good grace, you should _absolutely_ be the first to reply. A lot of people on this board (myself included) don't have that ability anymore, if we ever did.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LeoRose said:


> I'm just wondering how you've lived this long with intact queens without strangling them.
> 
> Some people will get their knickers in a twist no matter how politely you give them the reasons they shouldn't breed their pet. And for a vast majority of people, spaying and neutering is the best thing for them to do.


My daughter always went out of her way to ensure that anything the cats did paled in comparison lol

Or did you mean the amazing sounds the females make when they're ready to mate? Also the male sprayed my entire apt many times over. I also have a turtle. 

I don't know what can phase me at this point)))))


And you're right, some people won't learn no matter what, I saw a few threads where the posters were pretty ignorant and rude themselves. But I was just bothered about the overall attitude on the forum, like a snob attitude in a way. 

I just don't like judging anyone no matter what they do, that's where this is coming from. 



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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Nope, exactly the opposite. If you still have the patience to tackle that subject with diplomacy and good grace, you should _absolutely_ be the first to reply. A lot of people on this board (myself included) don't have that ability anymore, if we ever did.


Ohh you're saying that after a while it just gets infuriating? I can see that especially if you volunteered in a shelter. As a matter of fact that's what changed my mind, an open letter from a shelter worker. She was pretty rude in it too but I felt like she had the right to, she's the one killing all these dogs and it must be heartbreaking. I'd probably keep taking them in until I got evicted. 

I just don't think that you can succeed in getting people to stop unless you explain to them nicely where you're coming from. But I guess it works when you're rude too, it worked for me. 

Also, I read somewhere that it's BYB that are the real problem in terms of pet overpopulation, not the breeders (obviously) and not the puppy mills (surprisingly). I'm not sure i understand the last part. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LeoRose said:


> And for a vast majority of people, spaying and neutering is the best thing for them to do.


I wanted to add, you might be right, but there are lots of people that are opposed to the idea, especially people from other countries and though you might be right that they should - they won't. Problem is that a lot of them also don't realize that you don't have to breed an intact animal, I was one of them. So I think saying things like 'spay your female and enjoy your pet' sounds not only offensive (IMO) but also doesn't leave them with an acceptable choice. 

I actually get mad when I feel any kind of pressure to neuter. 

I might be wrong on everything I say, just blabbing my opinions


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think there is alot of good advice/information for say, new people who come on and post "I want to breed my dog"..But it can also get very frustrating, because some of those people are just looking for validation for doing so..THey hear what they want to hear and do what they want to do. Which can be FRUSTRATING So people sometimes lose patience (myself included at times), and the thread turns into a big mess with no real helpful info.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think there is alot of good advice/information for say, new people who come on and post "I want to breed my dog"..But it can also get very frustrating, because some of those people are just looking for validation for doing so..THey hear what they want to hear and do what they want to do. Which can be FRUSTRATING So people sometimes lose patience (myself included at times), and the thread turns into a big mess with no real helpful info.


Got you. You’re right about validation and I didn’t think about the part that they only see what they want to see and ignore the rest.

But in those cases being rude doesn’t help either. Don’t get me wrong, I sometimes enjoy arguments and a little rudeness but I think this is one case where there’s actually a chance to make them decide on not doing it and maybe trying nice at first would help?

However, seeing the thread where the bitch is already pregnant can be infuriating and I can definitely understand how instead of giving them advice on what they asked for people start bashing them instead.

I guess I was trying to make sure that if there’s a chance of talking them out of it – people try nice first.

Also, I saw someone from the board reply to a topic like this (should i breed my dog) and say that just one litter won’t make a difference and it’s not the end of the world if they breed their dog. That’s not true, everyone takes that attitude about themselves, that’s why we have the problem.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> And yes you don't have to put someone's dog down to explain why he shouldn't pass his genes on. But that wasn't even my point, there are different ways of saying things and there IS a way to be decent and polite about it and actually when you are - it makes people want to hear what you're saying.
> 
> If you're rude - the first reflex is to disagree.


Well, but like beauty, rudeness is in the eye of the beholder. Some people state their views without sugarcoating them, they don't intend to be rude, but some people will take it that way. And why should the first reflex be to disagree just because you (the general "you", not necessarily YOU) don't like the way someone worded their reply? It would be wonderful if everyone in the world was a paragon of tact and diplomacy, but unfortunately, they're not. Should you automatically discount their point just because you don't like the way they stated it? (Again, not YOU, necessarily.)

Saying a particular dog shouldn't be bred is not "dissing" it! It can be the most fabulous dog ever in the mind of the owner (well, second best - _my_ dogs are the best! :wub, but the world is not going to suffer if those particular genes don't get passed on. It's a simple truth that not every dog (or cat) should be bred, so why do people take it so personally when told that theirs is one that shouldn't? 



LeoRose said:


> Some people will get their knickers in a twist no matter how politely you give them the reasons they shouldn't breed their pet.


^ This. I've seen numerous threads over the years, on any number of topics, where people got their panties in a bunch and stormed off the board in a huff over how rude everyone was, how mean they were all being. I'd read every single post in the thread and have no idea what they were talking about. Some people imagine slights that aren't there, and think that someone disagreeing with them is a personal attack. :shrug:



lalachka said:


> Problem is that *a lot of them also don't realize that you don't have to breed an intact animal,* I was one of them. So I think saying things like 'spay your female and enjoy your pet' sounds not only offensive (IMO) but also doesn't leave them with an acceptable choice.


I know some people are opposed to routine spay/neuter, but I have to admit this is the first time I've heard the idea that I've bolded above. Most of the time when people say they don't plan to speuter they don't have any intention of breeding, they just don't believe in unnecessary surgeries and/or that it's better for the health of the dog to let it remain intact. I find it a bit weird that people would think that you have to breed an intact animal (no offense!), where did you get this idea, and where are you hearing it from others?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> *Well, but like beauty, rudeness is in the eye of the beholder. Some people state their views without sugarcoating them, they don't intend to be rude, but some people will take it that way.*
> 
> *And why should the first reflex be to disagree just because you (the general "you", not necessarily YOU) don't like the way someone worded their reply? It would be wonderful if everyone in the world was a paragon of tact and diplomacy, but unfortunately, they're not. Should you automatically discount their point just because you don't like the way they stated it? (Again, not YOU, necessarily.) *


True, it is in the eye of the beholder so then maybe I’m wrong and no one gets offended. But going by the “wars” coming out of those threads there are at least some that also feel this way. 

Maybe it IS just me but when I’m being attacked my first reaction is to defend myself and not try to see whether anything they’re saying might be true. I think it IS true that we are more likely to take advice from someone we like so when someone attacks me that usually makes me dislike them and dismiss anything they. I’m a stubborn one, maybe not everyone is like that.







Cassidy's Mom said:


> Saying a particular dog shouldn't be bred is not "dissing" it! It can be the most fabulous dog ever in the mind of the owner (well, second best - _my_ dogs are the best! ), but the world is not going to suffer if those particular genes don't get passed on. It's a simple truth that not every dog (or cat) should be bred, so why do people take it so personally when told that theirs is one that shouldn't?


There’s nothing wrong with that notion on its own, it’s just the way it’s being said most of the time. I guess for me everything comes down to the way things are said. It’s very easy to hurt someone’s feelings, I always try to put myself in everyone’s place to see how I’d feel. Most of the time I don’t think I’d like it. Then again, I might be overly sensitive compared to most.







Cassidy's Mom said:


> ^ This. I've seen numerous threads over the years, on any number of topics, where people got their panties in a bunch and stormed off the board in a huff over how rude everyone was, how mean they were all being. I'd read every single post in the thread and have no idea what they were talking about. Some people imagine slights that aren't there, and think that someone disagreeing with them is a personal attack.


Very possible, I saw a few of those myself. We are sensitive creatures, everyone has their buttons and you don’t know which one you might be pressing. My button is condescension and I think that’s why I picked these topics to write about, because I feel there’s a lot of condescension in those threads (JMO opinion of course).





Cassidy's Mom said:


> I know some people are opposed to routine spay/neuter, but I have to admit this is the first time I've heard the idea that I've bolded above. Most of the time when people say they don't plan to speuter they don't have any intention of breeding, they just don't believe in unnecessary surgeries and/or that it's better for the health of the dog to let it remain intact. I find it a bit weird that people would think that you have to breed an intact animal (no offense!), where did you get this idea, and where are you hearing it from others?


Lol, no offense taken, I’ve heard it more than once. I don’t remember if it was Russians (I’m from Russia myself) or Americans but I think it’s one of those old wives’ tales and there are people that still believe it.

I don’t know where it’s coming from but I did hear that if a female doesn’t give birth at least once then she will have some problems with her female organs down the line. I don’t remember whether there’s a similar belief for a male.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

People often ask me why I don't ever want to breed Ozzy. He's a great dog, he's outwardly healthy, and he even has sport titles. Great companion (what Poms are bred for, pretty much) and excellent ball drive. Great temperament, very biddable. 
Even if he passed all health certifications with flying colors, I would never breed him for two reasons.

First one being he has no pedigree. I don't know his background to know what he may or may not pass onto his puppies.
Second one being his conformation for a Pom sucks.

Do I love him? Absolutely. I would have another one of him in a heartbeat, but I would never put another penny in his 'breeder's' pocket. _And breeding him wouldn't give me a dog like him._ That last sentence is something people DO NOT understand!!


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I always advocate spay/neuter to folks who had the _intent _of breeding without the understanding of exactly what a burden of responsibility it is because it makes ME feel better. I will stop worrying that they'll make a mistake (or a conscious, impulsive choice) and bring a whole pile of unnecessary puppies into an over-saturated market.

I see the results of these experiments or accidents every day at the clinic, from pups held painfully by the scruff or a leg because their owner has no idea how to properly handle his litter all the way to death on the operating table from a c-section that waited too long or was 'too costly' for the family. People calling for free advice over the phone because pup after pup is dying, or the whole litter is crippled by bad nutrition. So when I've successfully changed an owner's mind about breeding their pet I want to cement it in a way that means I never have to see them back on our exam table with a litter in tow. Selfish reason!

I echo what others have said; a lot of new people come on here and announce "I'M GOING TO BREED FLUFFY! I NEED TIPS!1" or ask questions with the implication that they've already made the decision and expect the forum to shake their hand and say "welcome to the breeders club". It's not that simple to us. The folks on this forum are SERIOUS about their dogs. People here have studied pedigrees for decades, know their lines inside and out. We've researched every possible genetic incompatibility, trending, line breeding, etc and have a fierce loyalty to the breed. When John Q Layperson parades into town and expects a fanfare for his desire to put his Petland puppy's testicles to good use there is a lot of energy, knowledge, and opinion going into the response.

The 'novice' view is also that your choice is black and white: either breed or spay/neuter. They fail to see that there is a perfectly acceptable middleground; leave your pet intact and prevent him or her from reproducing. That requires responsibility, however, and most people are not suited to handling it.
"But my bitch was on her chain outside!" <- the wandering neighbor males weren't
"He's never jumped the fence before" <- as he's tied to the neighbor's bitch
"We didn't realize she was in heat" <- covered in placenta with twelve pups already out
"They're brother and sister, though!" <- watching 'sister' try to maul 'brother', who is tied tight and can't get away

Instead of trusting those sorts of people who are ignorant or lack education, I'd rather for MY peace of mind that they stay safe and not own a loaded firearm.

Now there are plenty of folks like yourself who 'saw the light', and to that I commend you. But not everyone is so willing to do an aboutface and admit that they were wrong. There are plenty of threads on this, even a huge one about the 'right' way to talk to people who want to breed where we debate this very question. Check it out, you'll be interested to see the discussion.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think there is alot of good advice/information for say, new people who come on and post "I want to breed my dog"..*But it can also get very frustrating, because some of those people are just looking for validation for doing so*..THey hear what they want to hear and do what they want to do. Which can be FRUSTRATING So people sometimes lose patience (myself included at times), and the thread turns into a big mess with no real helpful info.


Absolutely. And often, if that kind of person doesn't get that wholehearted validation (of COURSE you should breed your dog - yay, puppies!!!) they think they're being attacked and that everyone is mean and being rude to them. But really, we're NOT.

Lalachka, can I ask why you're SO opposed to speutering? You are certainly entitled to that opinion, I don't mean to imply you aren't, it's just that I assume you have valid reasons why you feel that strongly about it, to the point where you would rather breed your dogs than spay or neuter them, and I'm curious what those reasons are. I do know that in other countries it's not done as routinely as it is here in the US, but it doesn't seem like the unwanted pet overpopulation is anywhere near the problem it is here either.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Konotashi said:


> _And breeding him wouldn't give me a dog like him._ That last sentence is something people DO NOT understand!!


lol, you'd think it's a simple concept but apparently not. i also at one point wanted a dog like a mine, not realizing that i have a better shot of getting his sibling than breedinig him because then at least half of the baby will be the female.

seriously though, you'd be surprised how many people don't get it (me inclulded) until it's explained to them.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

lalachka said:


> seriously though, you'd be surprised how many people don't get it (me inclulded) until it's explained to them.


And how many people don't get it even though you HAVE!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

marbury said:


> I always advocate spay/neuter to folks who had the _intent _of breeding without the understanding of exactly what a burden of responsibility it is because it makes ME feel better. I will stop worrying that they'll make a mistake (or a conscious, impulsive choice) and bring a whole pile of unnecessary puppies into an over-saturated market.





marbury said:


> I see the results of these experiments or accidents every day at the clinic, from pups held painfully by the scruff or a leg because their owner has no idea how to properly handle his litter all the way to death on the operating table from a c-section that waited too long or was 'too costly' for the family. People calling for free advice over the phone because pup after pup is dying, or the whole litter is crippled by bad nutrition. So when I've successfully changed an owner's mind about breeding their pet I want to cement it in a way that means I never have to see them back on our exam table with a litter in tow. Selfish reason!
> I echo what others have said; a lot of new people come on here and announce "I'M GOING TO BREED FLUFFY! I NEED TIPS!1" or ask questions with the implication that they've already made the decision and expect the forum to shake their hand and say "welcome to the breeders club". It's not that simple to us. The folks on this forum are SERIOUS about their dogs. People here have studied pedigrees for decades, know their lines inside and out. We've researched every possible genetic incompatibility, trending, line breeding, etc and have a fierce loyalty to the breed. When John Q Layperson parades into town and expects a fanfare for his desire to put his Petland puppy's testicles to good use there is a lot of energy, knowledge, and opinion going into the response..




I’m sure you heard this but you have a talent for writing J))))
But on a serious note I can see why you’d be furious having to deal with all this first hand. It’s easy for me to sit here and defend (in a way) ‘wanna be BYB’ when I never saw what their actions lead to. So I can understand having lack of patience when you see these threads.





marbury said:


> The 'novice' view is also that your choice is black and white: either breed or spay/neuter. They fail to see that there is a perfectly acceptable middleground; leave your pet intact and prevent him or her from reproducing. That requires responsibility, however, and most people are not suited to handling it.
> "But my bitch was on her chain outside!" <- the wandering neighbor males weren't
> "He's never jumped the fence before" <- as he's tied to the neighbor's bitch
> "We didn't realize she was in heat" <- covered in placenta with twelve pups already out
> ...




lol at your reasons, yeah, i loved the one person who was asking whether a son can mount the mom.
Exactly and that’s my problem with telling them to go spay/neuter. I think that’s where the misconception is coming from, that’s it’s either/or, when people say “don’t breed, spay”. But I also understand the fear of accidental breeding especially for people who see them happening all the time. I’d like to think I can be responsible enough to prevent it but anything can happen, like my dog running away, for example.

I don’t know, this is a tough one.


and last thing, i saw the topic you're talking about, i think i read every single long thread on this board lol. but it was started by a breeder, if i remember right, i thought it'd be interesting for you to see what the other side has to say (i can be considered the other side, i only made up my mind not to breed any animal ever 2 months ago)


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

marbury said:


> And how many people don't get it even though you HAVE!


i feel smart!!!!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Lalachka, can I ask why you're SO opposed to speutering? You are certainly entitled to that opinion, I don't mean to imply you aren't, it's just that I assume you have valid reasons why you feel that strongly about it, to the point where you would rather breed your dogs than spay or neuter them, and I'm curious what those reasons are. I do know that in other countries it's not done as routinely as it is here in the US, but it doesn't seem like the unwanted pet overpopulation is anywhere near the problem it is here either.


i don't have valid reasons. it's just something that makes me feel really uncomfortable. IMO the only reason to spay/neuter is to prevent unwanted pregnancies (as opposed to doing it for aggression and behavior which i don't believe it works in even half the cases) and again IMO i think that it's more fair to be responsible and watch your animals.

i'm not judging anyone, please don't take it that way, i'm talking about ME only. in my mind it's a mean thing to do, it alters them, affects their growth, development if done before 2 years and just changes who knows what if done after 2 years.

i mean they have hormones for a reason, i don't know what i'm taking away from them if i neutered them and i'm just really uncomfortable with the idea.

i'd like to think i'm responsible, the only way i can see him getting someone pregnant was if he ran away. and i might be wrong but i don't think that small chance is worth doing something i'm so uncomfortable with.

i don't pretend i'm right about any of this, i'm just explaining my reasoning.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

It's a free country man, if you want to breed then breed and stop talking about it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you have different levels of newbies. You have the newbie that has this awesome pup who has papers, and when it's ready he wants to have puppies from her, because she is just awesome in every way. 

And then you have the newbies, who are not quite as new to the dog world. Like newly born-again Christians, or x-smokers, they are ready to shout it from the mountain tops what everyone else in the world ought to understand, and with zeal, they attempt to protect the breed from people who are deliberately and arrogantly ignorant when it comes to dogs and breeding. 

Then you have the old-b's. Some of whom try to give the newcomers the benefit of the doubt and answer once again the questions that have been asked a bajillion times in the last year -- only not by THIS particular poster, and to educate in the process. Some of the old-b's have their own agendas and really, if you have to ask for information on breeding on a dog-forum, than maybe indeed you are not really ready to take it on. 

People, all of us need to read what it is we typed and try to remember that this individual has not read the last 50 posts on variations of should-I-breed-my-dog. And if we are just too exasperated, we need to hit the back button, and just not post. Maybe tomorrow, we can add something that hasn't already been covered. But it is true that if people just get jumped, the vast majority will be so angry that they will just go ahead and do whatever they want to do, and no actual learning will take place.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> It's a free country man, if you want to breed then breed and stop talking about it.


It sure is a free country and I can talk about it all I want. When I feel I need your permission though i will let you know. 


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't think he was being rude-just stating a fact


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## apollo_and_shadow (Aug 29, 2013)

A guy I know at work once told me if I neuter my male, I am killing him. I guess I killed him lol.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I still haven't seen an answer to how you tell someone they shouldn't breed without saying their dog isn't worthy of being bred...or in other words, not as good as other dogs out there. 

I love my dog, I understand he's not the best pedigreed, but I'm also "in" the dog world. But me 3 years ago...I wouldn't have cared less. He would've been the greatest GSD to walk this earth and no one could tell me otherwise...so how would you explain to that person that their dog shouldn't be bred without putting me down or pissing me off?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

apollo_and_shadow said:


> A guy I know at work once told me if I neuter my male, I am killing him. I guess I killed him lol.


A lady in a pet store once asked me if I wanted my dog to die of cancer because I hadn't neutered him yet. 6+ years later, he is still doing great. He will be 8 in January, and his owner took off some of the extra weight that he gained at his previous home, and he says the boy is doing great now. 

The boy was 80 pounds at 4 years when I let him go to his new home, and I got him back at 7 years at 105 pounds. I felt he really would do better with of family of his own, so I asked a guy I knew, who had known him when I had him, if he would like to have him, and he has Rushie now. 

People say a lot of silly things. I agree with the OP, though, that just because a dog is kept intact, does not mean that the owner intends to breed the dog.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I don't know what I've seen more of lately, "should I breed my dog" or "we're too mean to people who want to breed their dogs." Lol, I've actually seen more of people going out of their way to be as "polite" and "careful" as possible, than I have of "attacks." But maybe that's just my interpretation....which is what it all comes down to...individual interpretations. It's the internet, people from all walks of life, all matters of opinion, and all types of knowledge will give their input and will do it in the way they want to, within the forum rules. Meh, sometimes I participate, sometimes not. 

Someone had a great way of dealing with them, they had a paragraph that they copy and pasted to every single new thread....a neutral, informative, paragraph....but sometimes I think the amount of tip toeing around is just silly. But, that's just my interpretation and thought.


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## paintmefree (Aug 29, 2013)

I for one thank you for your post about not judging us (as you pros call it) back yard breeders. I have left my female GSD intact for sveral reasons. 1. I wanted the option of breeding her left open. 2. I too want a "piece" of her. I couldn't ask for a better friend. 3. I have had a hysterctomy and it wasn't fun at all. Twas very nice of the doctor to send me home with ibuprofin. What pain meds would my Aries be given at home? None. 
I have also decided not to breed because of all of the unwanted dogs in shelters, on craigslist, etc. So I bought her a friend. He is a special friend because he is a hybrid. Timber wolf/ GSD. I know you know where this is going but please keep reading.
I also have three horses, two of wich are rescues (nurse mare foals) , one of which is (was) a colt. I am not rich by any means but my mother was in dire financial need in June. Shes been through major surgery. We almost lost her and she was going to loose her apartment. I had to pay her bills for July, leaving me enough money to get either the horse or the wolf fixed. I put the horse's needs first for he had a twisted testical. So on August 4th the colt was gelded. The first 24 hours are critical, intestines can fall through the incisions, so I spent the night watching over my horse. Ironically, Aries, my female GSD, was in heat. On the 5th of August, at 5:30 am, my "adopted" father took my dogs out to go potty. He didn't properly lock the wolf's crate. When I returned home at noon, I paniced. My wolf was roaming the house with my GSD and he wanted nothing to do with her and I have been so careful to keep them separated. So, it stands now she is 23 days in, by the time anyone reads this, 24 days. Yes she has the signs of pregnancy....her teets are droopy etc. I was not happy at all but it is what it is and it will be dealt with.
It could happen to anybody. It is greatly appriciated when others are supportive, even when they don't agree. Not speaking the obvious is included. Thank you for reading. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What I find ironic is the responsible breeders jumping through several hoops to breed what they feel is the best to keep the breed standard and sometimes the breedings don't take, and then the ones who have an oops litter with just one quick tie.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Everyone is ignorant until they are not. Some of the advice on the forum makes me cringe.

New persons have no idea who is advising them.

I've seen new people come on here without a clue and three months later are giving training advice and are rabid about BYBs. Neutering is out as you now must keep all dogs intact for various reasons.

As far as breeding. In the big picture outside the forum, breeding is a legal adventure. No one need ask permission and most won't. Unless laws are changed (which no one wants) breeders of all types will keep supplying the pet market.

Martemchik is right there really is no nice way to tell people not to breed.You can try to educate as each sees fit but cramming group think down peoples throats rarely works. IMO


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I agree with a lot of Jack’s Dad just posted.

I, personally, find it amusing that people on this board tend to overlook the fact that most of the endemic problems the breed faces today are probably due to breeders who are well-established within the breed fancy world.

In saying that, I am absolutely not endorsing BYBers. I am simply stating that your average pet dog BYBer is not the source of some of big health and temperament issues the breed faces today. 

Pet dog BYBers pose a different threat… that of shelter overpopulation. They benefit from breed lore and fantasy and they sell to it indiscriminately without a plan for how to manage bad outcomes. They allow purchasers to not really think about whether or not the breed (or individual dog) is a good fit. It is far easier for them to let purchasers believe that all GSDs will behave like the breed standard just because they are a GSD. 

When you look at some of the advertisements, it is as if they believe the puppy is born with all of this innate knowledge that will not require any training to realize.

To close, I feel that the vast majority of people could find their perfect companion at the shelter – purebred or not. Of course, this would require people spending at least some time evaluating shelter dogs and, more importantly, prioritizing their actual needs/wants over breed fantasies.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

LifeofRiley said:


> I agree with a lot of Jack’s Dad just posted.
> 
> I, personally, find it amusing that people on this board tend to overlook the fact that most of the endemic problems the breed faces today are probably due to breeders who are well-established within the breed fancy world.
> 
> ...


Nice post.

My working dog was $4000 from Holland as a green dog. She's amazing, and that monetary figure is incredibly low for the lives and money she had saved over the years. She is"worth" around $20,000 after training. When lives are at stake, I'm going with the proven blood lines, and then testing for drive and temperament before training begins. The initial cost of the dog is minimal compared to the value of the final product.

My pet dogs are always rescued or shelter dogs. I also always recommend a shelter dog for people asking me what kind of dog to get. I really enjoy helping people pick and train their shelter dogs. I am a huge believer in temperament over breed for a pet, so it involves some interesting debate at times.

I find it interesting how vehement some breeders are about betterment of the breed, yet many genetic defects found in dogs are found only in purebred dogs. On the other side of the same coin, truly responsible breeders are aware of the genetic problems in their particular breed, and conduct testing to avoid advancing the problem on to the next generation. I admire good breeders, and understand that it is generally not a profitable venture, even at $1500+ per pup.

IME, most back yard breeders are not breeding out of lack of respect for the breed, or for monetary gain, but are just uneducated. They like their dog, think it is pretty, and feel that AKC registration stands for something. They know nothing of pedigrees or health certification. They may not be aware of the situation in our animal shelters. They love their dog and think it's a good idea to share it with someone else. They aren't "dog people," but rather people that enjoy their dog.

Puppy mills are animal cruelty.

With all that said, my next dogs will be used for a purpose, so I will purchase those dogs from reputable breeders (Betty ;-)) with an end goal in mind. I'll be training bedbug detection with a little terrier for my wife to handle (probably a WL JRT). I'll also be training Nosework and protection with a female WL GSD, from Little River Canine. If I have to wait a year or more to get the right dog, I feel it's worth the wait.

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

holland said:


> I don't think he was being rude-just stating a fact


what fact? and what was the point of stating it? we all know that we don't have to write on forums, what was the point of saying that?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer said:


> And then you have the newbies, who are not quite as new to the dog world. Like newly born-again Christians, or x-smokers, they are ready to shout it from the mountain tops what everyone else in the world ought to understand, and with zeal, they attempt to protect the breed from people who are deliberately and arrogantly ignorant when it comes to dogs and breeding.


 
Yep yep, these are the worst IMO. To me that attitude is such a turn off that I have a hard time making myself try to hear what they have to say. Yeah the “cover” shouldn’t matter but it often does.




selzer said:


> Then you have the old-b's. Some of whom try to give the newcomers the benefit of the doubt and answer once again the questions that have been asked a bajillion times in the last year -- only not by THIS particular poster, and to educate in the process. Some of the old-b's have their own agendas…


 
I’m curious, what agendas do some have? Exposure? I’ve seen you being pretty patient with some people, writing long posts with detailed explanations of possible complications, suggestions, etc. I actually thought that was a nice thing to do. So what agenda did you have lol? Or you’re not an “old-b”? (what’s a b?)))





selzer said:


> and really, if you have to ask for information on breeding on a dog-forum, than maybe indeed you are not really ready to take it on.


 
Lol yes I agree on this.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I still haven't seen an answer to how you tell someone they shouldn't breed without saying their dog isn't worthy of being bred...or in other words, not as good as other dogs out there.





martemchik said:


> I love my dog, I understand he's not the best pedigreed, but I'm also "in" the dog world. But me 3 years ago...I wouldn't have cared less. He would've been the greatest GSD to walk this earth and no one could tell me otherwise...so how would you explain to that person that their dog shouldn't be bred without putting me down or pissing me off?




I didn’t realize you wanted to see a sample reply. Here’s what I’d say.


Should I breed my dog?

The short answer is NO and here’s why. I’m sure your dog is amazing, it’d be surprising if you didn’t feel that way J

However, if done right, breeding is time consuming, expensive and takes a huge amount of knowledge and research. GSDs have a list of genetic disorders and aggression problems and there’s also a problem with dogs of all breeds, pure and mixed, in shelters being euthanized by the millions. So if you don’t want to contribute to these problems then here’s approximately how breeding should be done (I never bred so I am sure I missed a lot of things).

You research pedigrees of the potential mates: make sure they both have titles (that’s how temperament and trainability get tested, by competing in dog sports), make sure their “ancestors” going back a few generations had little or no genetic disorders and had titles, and that the potential mates would overall complement each other. Then you run a bunch of tests on both the potential mates. Then, if there are no birth complications you raise and socialize the pups which is also expensive and time consuming. And then you have to screen the potential buyers to make sure the pups end up in good homes. Also, the ethical thing to do is to commit to taking any dog you sold back at any age and no matter what reason the buyers have for not wanting it anymore.

Bottom line is that doing it responsibly is not a profitable business, at least not at first. And here’s when the question comes up of why you want to breed. If you’re looking to make some money – breeding the right way will probably put you in the negative after your first litter. The only way you can make some money on your first litter is if you don’t test or title and just put 2 dogs together.

That’s definitely your choice but you won’t get support for it here. The reason it’s looked down upon is because, as I mentioned, there are too many poorly bred dogs with all kinds of health and behavior problems and those are usually the dogs that end up in shelters because their owners can’t or don’t want to take care of them anymore. Of course, dogs with problems can come from good breeders but by health testing and titling and researching pedigrees they’re at least trying to lower the chances of it happening. They also take their dogs back.

If you want to breed your dogs because you love them so much and want a piece of them – you’re MUCH better off purchasing another pup from your breeder. Not only it will be more like your dog (if you breed your dog only half of the pup will come from your dog, the rest will be the mate, besides he might not pass a lot of his characteristics on) but it’s also much cheaper, you don’t stand a chance of losing your bitch and pups to birth complications and you also won’t end up with another 5-10 pups with unknown health history and temperament that will have a harder time being placed to good homes. The kind of homes you’d want for your pups don’t want to buy from you, they’re looking for breeders that health test and title.

And if you’re doing it so you and your children can ‘experience the miracle of life’ then to quote a shelter worker, “you should volunteer in a shelter and experience the miracle of death first”.

I’m not trying to be mean, I myself was very close to breeding my dog so I definitely understand the desire and the thought process. But then people learn about what goes into good breeding and what problems can come out of bad breeding and they usually decide against it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

paintmefree said:


> I for one thank you for your post about not judging us (as you pros call it) back yard breeders. I have left my female GSD intact for sveral reasons. 1. I wanted the option of breeding her left open. 2. I too want a "piece" of her. I couldn't ask for a better friend. 3. I have had a hysterctomy and it wasn't fun at all. Twas very nice of the doctor to send me home with ibuprofin. What pain meds would my Aries be given at home? None.
> I have also decided not to breed because of all of the unwanted dogs in shelters, on craigslist, etc. So I bought her a friend. He is a special friend because he is a hybrid. Timber wolf/ GSD. I know you know where this is going but please keep reading.
> I also have three horses, two of wich are rescues (nurse mare foals) , one of which is (was) a colt. I am not rich by any means but my mother was in dire financial need in June. Shes been through major surgery. We almost lost her and she was going to loose her apartment. I had to pay her bills for July, leaving me enough money to get either the horse or the wolf fixed. I put the horse's needs first for he had a twisted testical. So on August 4th the colt was gelded. The first 24 hours are critical, intestines can fall through the incisions, so I spent the night watching over my horse. Ironically, Aries, my female GSD, was in heat. On the 5th of August, at 5:30 am, my "adopted" father took my dogs out to go potty. He didn't properly lock the wolf's crate. When I returned home at noon, I paniced. My wolf was roaming the house with my GSD and he wanted nothing to do with her and I have been so careful to keep them separated. So, it stands now she is 23 days in, by the time anyone reads this, 24 days. Yes she has the signs of pregnancy....her teets are droopy etc. I was not happy at all but it is what it is and it will be dealt with.
> It could happen to anybody. It is greatly appriciated when others are supportive, even when they don't agree. Not speaking the obvious is included. Thank you for reading.
> ...


i'm not a pro and i'm not judging but i'm all for honesty. forgive me if i'm wrong but this doesn't sound like an accident for a few reasons.

i realize everyone is different, but me personally, i can overlook a lot of things when a person is straight up about everything. again, apologize if i'm wrong.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> I've seen new people come on here without a clue and three months later are giving training advice and are rabid about BYBs. *Neutering is out as you now must keep all dogs intact for various reasons.*


what do you mean by this? and how does it relate to the paragraph? i'm not being smart, i really don't understand what this means


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LifeofRiley said:


> I agree with a lot of Jack’s Dad just posted.
> 
> I, personally, find it amusing that people on this board tend to overlook the fact that most of the endemic problems the breed faces today are probably due to breeders who are well-established within the breed fancy world.
> 
> ...


this is very true, at least in my case. looks do matter, you (not you, anyone) can deny it all you want but it's true and it's used in advertising all the time.

yes, people do expect a gsd to come trained and protective out of the box, this image of the gsd was created by the movies and the fact that most working dogs are gsds.

i also happen to love the way they look. yeah, picking a dog based on a look is not the smartest thing for sure but i must like the way my animals look, it makes it that much easier to adore them.

i admire people that can take mutts from the shleter, they're much better people than me and i say that with no sarcasm.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> IME, most back yard breeders are not breeding out of lack of respect for the breed, or for monetary gain, but are just uneducated. They like their dog, think it is pretty, and feel that AKC registration stands for something. They know nothing of pedigrees or health certification. They may not be aware of the situation in our animal shelters. They love their dog and think it's a good idea to share it with someone else. They aren't "dog people," but rather people that enjoy their dog.


that's my take as well, i, at the age of 39, didn't know any of it, only learned it after i got my dog when i started reading about the breed and the training.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I would consider myself somewhere inbetween... I'm not an expert, I don't study pedigrees and different dogs... In fact when I was looking for breeders I didn't even know there were different lines, I thought a GSD was a GSD not this line, that line...

But even me being the newbie that I am the thought of breeding never once entered my mind. To me it made sense not to, there's so many dogs dying in shelters... There was a documentary on HBO I think about it and showed perfectly healthy young dogs being killed with gas, it was absolutely horrifying. I couldn't bring puppies or kittens into the world and not constantly worry about how they're doing because anyone can make themselves look like a great home and you just never know. That puppy that you think is going to a wonderful home could be in fact going to a puppy mill to be bred until it died or used as a bait dog. For me personally, I just couldn't deal with it and I don't know how breeders do it. It just seems like common sense to me. I rarely ever comment on those threads but a lot of times I'm shocked at how ignorant an adult can be.

My dog has a great pedigree, excellent temperament and does really well at his sport but I'd never breed him... There's lots of really excellent breeders out there doing really great things and producing great dogs, they don't really need me. 

And as far as spaying/neutering... My male GSD is intact, based on the research I've done and what my breeder wanted is that's its better for them to stay intact until they're physically mature. Having said that though I have a female Siamese who almost died from pyometra. For me now keeping a female intact is far riskier to her health then spaying her. It also created a lot of stress in the house for her and my male cats(who are neutered)... She is far more relaxed now and so is everyone else! Me personally I won't take that risk again with a female.

As far as what to tell people, I've seen almost exactly what you wrote said but some people just will not listen to reason... All they say back is 'well the dog is AKC, health checked by a vet and these are just pet dogs they don't need titles!'. Some people just take offense right away as soon as you disagree with them no matter how polite you are. It's a thin line you walk especially over the Internet where people can't see your expressions or hear your tone of voice. Do I think some people could have more tact? Sure! But I've only been here a year and I've seen countless should I breed my dog threads... I can understand how people who have been here longer have trouble not sounding harsh when they've already said this a million times over. I'm not sure there is a solution.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I just came across an ad for "Check Sheppard puppies, mother tittled, $1500" ....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> what do you mean by this? and how does it relate to the paragraph? i'm not being smart, i really don't understand what this means


Spaying and neutering has become a no-no in the educated dog world. Most will tell you to hold off until at least 1 year old if not longer. Lots of research stating this and that about it. If you look up some of the "should I neuter" threads, you'll see absolutely no thought taken as to who is asking the question and why. Usually you get the information about why not to do it, and within 4 don't do it posts the OP is convinced not to neuter the dog.

Bottom line...in America the only way to help curb the pet over population problem is for the majority of people to slag/neuter their animals. Leaving your animal intact for 2+ years, IMO leaves you open to one day deciding to have some puppies. And that's the situation I'm in btw. I have an intact male, who is in many people's opinion a better male than many of the males at my club (akc club). And in my semi-educated opinion it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to stud him. He has titles, not schutzhund, but titles, he's OFA'd, and an all around good dog. But according to this forum, no SchH3, no babies. But guess what, the real world is way different than what this forum thinks.

So OP, I suggest you get out there, to schutzhund clubs, to GSDCA clubs, to all sorts of GSD events, and see what people are doing. No offense to anyone on this forum, I think very much the same way, but the truth is that even many reputable breeders that I know (American conformation), wouldn't stand a chance on this forum for their breeding practices. And only because they believe something different than the majority of the people on this forum.

We can romanticize about the perfect breeder all we want, the truth is, plenty of people out there doing it just fine, but still wouldn't pass the forum test.

Btw OP...your explanation on why not to breed was wonderful, but many times those people don't care. They don't believe the 10 pups their bitch will produce makes any difference in the shelters. They also might believe that their dog has the best temperament...so it's the solution to the bad temperament issue. I remember one poster a few weeks back that thought his 4 month old was the perfect example of GSD temperament and said any puppy out of him would be lucky to have that temperament...this was this persons first GSD, so how in the world did they know what the perfect GSD temperament even is?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> I just came across an ad for "Check Sheppard puppies, mother tittled, $1500" ....


I'm always amazed at how many different way people manage to misspell 'shepherd'. 
But yeah, sad it is


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I just want to say, in case I wasn’t clear before, I’m not breeding my dog no matter what. He’s not even AKC registered but even if he was – I decided that I can’t do it the right way and don’t want to do it the wrong way.




Carriesue said:


> I would consider myself somewhere inbetween... I'm not an expert, I don't study pedigrees and different dogs... In fact when I was looking for breeders I didn't even know there were different lines, I thought a GSD was a GSD not this line, that line...





Carriesue said:


> But even me being the newbie that I am the thought of breeding never once entered my mind. To me it made sense not to, there's so many dogs dying in shelters... There was a documentary on HBO I think about it and showed perfectly healthy young dogs being killed with gas, it was absolutely horrifying. I couldn't bring puppies or kittens into the world and not constantly worry about how they're doing because anyone can make themselves look like a great home and you just never know. That puppy that you think is going to a wonderful home could be in fact going to a puppy mill to be bred until it died or used as a bait dog. For me personally, I just couldn't deal with it and I don't know how breeders do it. It just seems like common sense to me. I rarely ever comment on those threads but a lot of times I'm shocked at how ignorant an adult can be.


You’d be surprised. Up until a few months ago I didn’t know about all the animals dying in shelters so I suppose there are others like me. so that’s why I believe that many are not doing it out of malice, they really never realized how much goes into it and doing it their way is not the way to go about it.
I guess those are the ones I’m trying to defend. Yeah, if someone comes on and after hearing all the reasons still is bent on doing it – then they made their choice but at least they have all the info. You can only do so much.




Carriesue said:


> As far as what to tell people, I've seen almost exactly what you wrote said but some people just will not listen to reason... All they say back is 'well the dog is AKC, health checked by a vet and these are just pet dogs they don't need titles!'. Some people just take offense right away as soon as you disagree with them no matter how polite you are. It's a thin line you walk especially over the Internet where people can't see your expressions or hear your tone of voice. Do I think some people could have more tact? Sure! But I've only been here a year and I've seen countless should I breed my dog threads... I can understand how people who have been here longer have trouble not sounding harsh when they've already said this a million times over. I'm not sure there is a solution.


Yep, I’ve seen those. Oscar101 comes to mind along with a few others. He was just so ‘remarkable’ that I remember his sn lol.
But I do understand the frustration of people here, I guess I haven’t had to repeat myself over and over just to see the next “want to breed my dog” thread and I also didn’t have to work at the shelter. Shelter workers get a break from me J)))) they see so much monstrosity that it’s hard to ask them to be polite about these issues.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Spaying and neutering has become a no-no in the educated dog world. Most will tell you to hold off until at least 1 year old if not longer. Lots of research stating this and that about it. If you look up some of the "should I neuter" threads, you'll see absolutely no thought taken as to who is asking the question and why. Usually you get the information about why not to do it, and within 4 don't do it posts the OP is convinced not to neuter the dog.





martemchik said:


> Bottom line...in America the only way to help curb the pet over population problem is for the majority of people to slag/neuter their animals. Leaving your animal intact for 2+ years, IMO leaves you open to one day deciding to have some puppies?


Ohh, I didn’t even think of it in this aspect (temptation to breed later on). I see what you’re saying then, I guess it makes sense that as years go by you get more and more attached to your dog and it only takes a few people to tell you how amazing he is and that he should definitely be bred for you (not you, anyone) to have doubts.
Ok, I will stop talking against neutering, I didn’t realize the impact it has.





martemchik said:


> And that's the situation I'm in btw. I have an intact male, who is in many people's opinion a better male than many of the males at my club (akc club). And in my semi-educated opinion it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to stud him. He has titles, not schutzhund, but titles, he's OFA'd, and an all around good dog. But according to this forum, no SchH3, no babies. But guess what, the real world is way different than what this forum thinks?


In my opinion your case doesn’t sound as bad and you’re right, it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. I didn’t know that SchH3 was the requirement here, I thought just a decent competition title would do (after all, not everyone is interested in SchH and IMO any good title, obedience, agility, SAR should do. Doesn’t it prove that the dog is trainable and stable? Most of these dogs go to pet homes and will never be worked, why can’t agility or obedience do? Forgive me if I, again, don’t understand something).
I guess for me it’s not so much the titles that make a good breeder but the fact that some thought goes into the breeding process, enough health testing is done to try to minimize any problems and some titles are achieved, basically that the breeding was done in good faith. But I’m not knowledgeable in this field, I’m sure some would disagree.
Why SchH? What’s the reasoning behind it?





martemchik said:


> So OP, I suggest you get out there, to schutzhund clubs, to GSDCA clubs, to all sorts of GSD events, and see what people are doing. No offense to anyone on this forum, I think very much the same way, but the truth is that even many reputable breeders that I know (American conformation), wouldn't stand a chance on this forum for their breeding practices. And only because they believe something different than the majority of the people on this forum.





martemchik said:


> We can romanticize about the perfect breeder all we want, the truth is, plenty of people out there doing it just fine, but still wouldn't pass the forum test.


Lol, no, that’s not my thing and I decided against breeding once and for all, so I don’t have the need to. Besides, as I said earlier, my boy is not even AKC registered. I was ignorant, looking back now I can’t believe I was thinking of breeding and how close I came.





martemchik said:


> Btw OP...your explanation on why not to breed was wonderful, but many times those people don't care. They don't believe the 10 pups their bitch will produce makes any difference in the shelters. They also might believe that their dog has the best temperament...so it's the solution to the bad temperament issue. I remember one poster a few weeks back that thought his 4 month old was the perfect example of GSD temperament and said any puppy out of him would be lucky to have that temperament...this was this persons first GSD, so how in the world did they know what the perfect GSD temperament even is?


Thank you))))

And lol yeah I read that thread, it was entertaining. I guess you’re right, if someone is open to listening – they’ll listen even if some people are rude (it did happen here, I was surprised as much as the girl was attacked that she was able to say that she won’t do it and that she was wrong, it was the girl wanting to breed to an ex-police dog that her cousin bought rights to). 
So no matter how nicely you put it, if people are not willing to change their mind nothing matters. 


ETA i don't know why your posts in the quote split but i can't fix it


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

lalachka said:


> Should I breed my dog?
> 
> The short answer is NO and here’s why. I’m sure your dog is amazing, it’d be surprising if you didn’t feel that way J
> 
> ...


I think that if you were to go back and reread threads on this topic, you will find that wannabe breeders have taken exception to just about every single one of your points, and called the response "rude" and "stuck up".

The people who take exception and get pushed out of shape by the responses they get to their "I want to breed my dog/Should I breed my dog" posts are reacting to not hearing what they thought they would hear, not to the tone of the responses. 

So, OP, I think your heart is in the right place. But the reality is that even your well considered piece would be dismissed, simply because it isn't what these people want to hear or expect to hear. 
Sheilah


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Why SchH? What’s the reasoning behind it?


Nutshell version: because it was developed as a breedworthiness test specifically for the German Shepherd Dog and it (in its ideal form) tests aspects of the dog's courage, determination, and nerve that other sports do not.

There are loads of long threads on pros and cons of taking this view, and whether it's realistic to maintain that standard in the U.S. where it's much harder and more expensive to do SchH/IPO, and whether the sport is still serving that function now that it's become more of a true "sport" played for points, but that'd be a mighty derail if we got into the discussion again here. 

Go back and read some of those threads, they're quite illuminating (or were for me, anyway) and many good, different viewpoints are shared in them.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

At the end of the day, many first time posters come on here for validation. Either they get it or they don't. When they don't, they get upset and leave anyways.

A recent thread this week not on this topic but proves my point...the one about the mail man and the dog. Person wanted to hear compassion and how the post man was being unreasonable and to fight them every step of the way. Instead most questioned the training of the dog and the reason why the person wouldn't just oblige to the post workers request...they didn't like those answers and got angry.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sit said:


> So, OP, I think your heart is in the right place. But the reality is that even your well considered piece would be dismissed, simply because it isn't what these people want to hear or expect to hear.
> Sheilah


I was going to say the same thing. OP, you complain about us "meanies" running people off with our rude replies, but your reply could be perceived exactly the same way--BYB wannabes WILL find your reply rude and offensive. I could pick apart your whole post and annotate exactly how the breeder wannabe will take offense to each point. So... what else ya got? 

Here's mine, I saved it in a document so I can copy and paste whenever necessary:

I thought I wanted to be a breeder when I was young. I dreamed of breeding top-quality dogs, showing, titling, winning, the whole thing. I used to go to AKC shows when I was a child and I thought it was the coolest thing EVER, and if only I could be a part of it! If my parents had been on board with letting me get a dog and show in Jr. Showmanship, it would have been a dream come true. But sadly, the dream died when I started working professionally with animals and saw the fallout of bad breeding, overbreeding, and puppy mills. At first I thought I would just be one of those GOOD breeders. Even into my late twenties I thought that. But the more I worked with other people's animals, the more I became acutely aware of the ethical issues surrounding breeding, and eventually I realized I don't have the temperament for it. 

Now, I'm sure that someone somewhere will find a way to be offended by that too. The problem is, it's nearly impossible to tell someone they have a bad idea without offending them.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sit said:


> I think that if you were to go back and reread threads on this topic, you will find that wannabe breeders have taken exception to just about every single one of your points, and called the response "rude" and "stuck up".
> 
> The people who take exception and get pushed out of shape by the responses they get to their "I want to breed my dog/Should I breed my dog" posts are reacting to not hearing what they thought they would hear, not to the tone of the responses.
> 
> ...


yeah)))) i changed my mind already since i posted this, you're right, if someone is willing to listen they'd get past the rudeness in most cases. they're basically upset that they didn't get the validation they were hoping for.

it's sad, i feel really bad for all these dogs, it broke my heart when someone posted pics of dogs sitting in cages at the shelter and how depressed they looked. i admire people that work at the shelters and adopt all these dogs.

the consolation is that people DO change their minds.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Nutshell version: because it was developed as a breedworthiness test specifically for the German Shepherd Dog and it (in its ideal form) tests aspects of the dog's courage, determination, and nerve that other sports do not.
> 
> There are loads of long threads on pros and cons of taking this view, and whether it's realistic to maintain that standard in the U.S. where it's much harder and more expensive to do SchH/IPO, and whether the sport is still serving that function now that it's become more of a true "sport" played for points, but that'd be a mighty derail if we got into the discussion again here.
> 
> Go back and read some of those threads, they're quite illuminating (or were for me, anyway) and many good, different viewpoints are shared in them.


i didn't know it was developed as breedworthiness, then it makes sense. i will end up in that forum at some point, i'm still reading in breeding)))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> At the end of the day, many first time posters come on here for validation. Either they get it or they don't. When they don't, they get upset and leave anyways.
> 
> A recent thread this week not on this topic but proves my point...the one about the mail man and the dog. Person wanted to hear compassion and how the post man was being unreasonable and to fight them every step of the way. Instead most questioned the training of the dog and the reason why the person wouldn't just oblige to the post workers request...they didn't like those answers and got angry.


)))))) yep i saw a few of these, i don't want to name them not to point at anyone. 

oh well, i tried)))) as i'm sure everyone here did. 

also, i just thought of something. people are often in denial, it takes a while for some things to sink in. i remember after reading that letter from a shelter worker I then found a checklist of what constitues a hobby breeder and a BYB breeder and i was trying to convince myself that i'd be a hobby breeder)))))) (with an unregistered dog btw)))))

denial is powerful, we all must like ourselves to be mentally healthy so our brain does all it can to help make excuses


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Freestep said:


> I was going to say the same thing. OP, you complain about us "meanies" running people off with our rude replies, but your reply could be perceived exactly the same way--BYB wannabes WILL find your reply rude and offensive. I could pick apart your whole post and annotate exactly how the breeder wannabe will take offense to each point. So... what else ya got?
> 
> Here's mine, I saved it in a document so I can copy and paste whenever necessary:
> 
> ...


though i'm sure you can find offensive things in my posts (wanna be BYB was in my posts, not my letter) i don't know what was offensive about my letter (pick it apart, i'm interested, i won't be defensive about it ))) and definitely don't know which part of yours can be offensive.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

paintmefree said:


> I for one thank you for your post about not judging us (as you pros call it) back yard breeders. I have left my female GSD intact for sveral reasons. 1. *I wanted the option of breeding her left open*. 2.* I too want a "piece" of her. I couldn't ask for a better friend.* 3. I have had a hysterctomy and it wasn't fun at all. Twas very nice of the doctor to send me home with ibuprofin. *What pain meds would my Aries be given at home? None. *
> *I* have also *decided not to breed* because of all of the unwanted dogs in shelters, on craigslist, etc. *So I bought her a friend*. He is a special friend because *he is a hybrid*. *Timber wolf/ GSD*. I know you know where this is going but please keep reading.
> I also have three horses, two of wich are rescues (nurse mare foals) , one of which is (was) a colt. I am not rich by any means but my mother was in dire financial need in June. Shes been through major surgery. We almost lost her and she was going to loose her apartment. I had to pay her bills for July, leaving me enough money to get *either the horse or the wolf fixed*. I put the horse's needs first for he had a twisted testical. So on August 4th the colt was gelded. The first 24 hours are critical, intestines can fall through the incisions, so *I spent the night watching over my horse. Ironically, Aries, my female GSD, was in heat. On the 5th of August, at 5:30 am, my "adopted" father took my dogs out to go potty.* *He didn't properly lock the wolf's crate.* When I returned home at noon, I paniced. *My wolf was roaming the house with my GSD* and *he wanted nothing to do with her *and *I have been so careful to keep them separated*. So, it stands now she is 23 days in, by the time anyone reads this, *24 days. Yes she has the signs of pregnancy....her teets are droopy etc*. I was not happy at all but it is what it is and it will be dealt with.
> *It could happen to anybody.* It is greatly appriciated when others are supportive, even when they don't agree. Not speaking the obvious is included. Thank you for reading.
> ...


HSUS and all the cronies that want to make laws that every dog be spayed or neutered by 4 or 6 months of age LOVE you.

Frankly, I would rather have people say that they bred their dogs because they wanted a piece of them/they wanted their son or daughter; or that they thought their bitch should experience motherhood; or they wanted their kids to experience the miracle of birth/life; or even because they paid $500 for her, she has papers, and they want to make a litter so they can sell the puppies, than listening to people say that OOPS my (fill in the blank) let my intact dogs out, and WOW it just happened to be in that window when she could get pregnant. Now I am going to have pups. Ooopsie. 

I mean you can work with someone who says they want another just like the first. 

You can work with someone who thinks their bitch will not be complete without having a litter. 

You can work with someone who wants their brats to experience the miracle of life. 

You can work with someone who wants to sell a litter of pure-bred dogs. 

You JUST CAN'T WORK WITH SOMEONE WHO BLAMES SOMEONE ELSE and says WHOOPS! 

These are the people who convince the Rescue and Shelter people that no one can keep intact animals without their breeding.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer said:


> HSUS and all the cronies that want to make laws that every dog be spayed or neutered by 4 or 6 months of age LOVE you.
> 
> Frankly, I would rather have people say that they bred their dogs because they wanted a piece of them/they wanted their son or daughter; or that they thought their bitch should experience motherhood; or they wanted their kids to experience the miracle of birth/life; or even because they paid $500 for her, she has papers, and they want to make a litter so they can sell the puppies, than listening to people say that OOPS my (fill in the blank) let my intact dogs out, and WOW it just happened to be in that window when she could get pregnant. Now I am going to have pups. Ooopsie.
> 
> ...


lol i'm glad you picked up on all of it too. i didn't want to sound mean but i like it when people are honest about whatever they do (at least to themselves and it's not the case here either)


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Shouldn't you politely, with no hint of condescension, explain to them that this is not the best way of doing it and explain why that is the case?


That is exactly what happens in all of those threads. It's not an attack to ask a pertinent question when someone asks "should I breed my dog?" I've seen very few remarks that I would call an attack, and the ones that are condescending are usually balanced out by darn good advice delivered in a polite way. And a lot of the time people are convinced not to breed, so it must be doing some good. 

The ones that come on here and ask over and over again, always coming up with excuses for why their dog is different, never really wanted an honest opinion in the first place. They just wanted people to tell them how awesome their dog is and let them make the decision with a lack of guilt. I think that people who would even ask this question KNOW that they could be (and probably are) wrong to breed, or they wouldn't be seeking the approval of anonymous dog lovers on the internet.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Where do those breeders end up selling their pups? Online classifieds which attract people that don't really research the breeder anyway. It all comes full circle. The buyer will also think their pup is the best thing ever and decide to breed, then sell thru the same venue they bought that pup....keeps going round and round.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Where do those breeders end up selling their pups? Online classifieds which attract people that don't really research the breeder anyway. It all comes full circle. The buyer will also think their pup is the best thing ever and decide to breed, then sell thru the same venue they bought that pup....keeps going round and round.


for sure. that's exactly how it happens, i bought my cats this way, through a Russian newspaper and never gave it another thought, i thought this is the way it's done, you buy a kitty, later on have kitties so you can enjoy them and then sell them for 20$ or give them away.

once i got a dog i automatically assumed it's the same deal. i never got kittens so i figured i'd rather breed him instead, i mean i love him so much)))))))


anyway, this topic can be closed. i've been browsing CL pet section for the last few hours and i'm horrified seeing countless dogs up for adoption (probably resellers). also see stuff lilke "will take a free puppy". i see so many disturbing types of ads on CL. this is depressing, all these dogs look so sad.

so whatever, hurt their feelings, i don't care. you're right, most of the time they only need validation anyway and only rarely are people actually willing to listen to anything, whether it's said nicely or not.

i can only imagine how shelter workers feel, you must want to kill anyone that walks through the door with their animal.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Kaimeju said:


> That is exactly what happens in all of those threads. It's not an attack to ask a pertinent question when someone asks "should I breed my dog?" I've seen very few remarks that I would call an attack, and the ones that are condescending are usually balanced out by darn good advice delivered in a polite way. And a lot of the time people are convinced not to breed, so it must be doing some good.
> 
> The ones that come on here and ask over and over again, always coming up with excuses for why their dog is different, never really wanted an honest opinion in the first place. They just wanted people to tell them how awesome their dog is and let them make the decision with a lack of guilt. I think that people who would even ask this question KNOW that they could be (and probably are) wrong to breed, or they wouldn't be seeking the approval of anonymous dog lovers on the internet.


That's true, most of the time they feel they're doing something wrong and are looking for validation. 
There were a few nasty threads though but what I didn't realize was that most of the people here have seen some atrocities and they just lose their patience seeing another person asking whether they should breed their dog. 

I will say though that there are people that don't know about the shelter situation and how breeding should be done. It might sound hard to believe but it's true. 


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Okay, you really want me to pick this apart like a wannabe-breeder would? Okay. Here's how it will go.



lalachka said:


> The short answer is NO and here’s why. I’m sure your dog is amazing, it’d be surprising if you didn’t feel that way


"You've already written me off without even knowing my dog! How dismissive and rude."




> However, if done right, breeding is time consuming, expensive and takes a huge amount of knowledge and research. GSDs have a list of genetic disorders and aggression problems and there’s also a problem with dogs of all breeds, pure and mixed, in shelters being euthanized by the millions. So if you don’t want to contribute to these problems then here’s approximately how breeding should be done (I never bred so I am sure I missed a lot of things).


"How dare you suggest I would dump these puppies. You don't know me! MY puppies will only have good homes, and my female is perfectly healthy--the vet said so! How dare you assume I would breed an unhealthy, aggressive dog!"




> You research pedigrees of the potential mates: make sure they both have titles (that’s how temperament and trainability get tested, by competing in dog sports), make sure their “ancestors” going back a few generations had little or no genetic disorders and had titles, and that the potential mates would overall complement each other. Then you run a bunch of tests on both the potential mates. Then, if there are no birth complications you raise and socialize the pups which is also expensive and time consuming. And then you have to screen the potential buyers to make sure the pups end up in good homes. Also, the ethical thing to do is to commit to taking any dog you sold back at any age and no matter what reason the buyers have for not wanting it anymore.


"Who are you, the GSD police? It's a free country, and I don't have to do any of those things. Who is going to make me? You facist Nazi, you probably voted for Obama. It's perfectly legal and it's my right to breed my dog."




> Bottom line is that doing it responsibly is not a profitable business, at least not at first. And here’s when the question comes up of why you want to breed. If you’re looking to make some money – breeding the right way will probably put you in the negative after your first litter. The only way you can make some money on your first litter is if you don’t test or title and just put 2 dogs together.


"How dare you assume I am trying to make money? I want to breed a litter of puppies so that my kids can see the miracle of life, and we want a puppy so we can always have a piece of her with us. And so my friends and family can have a puppy."




> That’s definitely your choice but you won’t get support for it here. The reason it’s looked down upon is because, as I mentioned, there are too many poorly bred dogs with all kinds of health and behavior problems and those are usually the dogs that end up in shelters because their owners can’t or don’t want to take care of them anymore. Of course, dogs with problems can come from good breeders but by health testing and titling and researching pedigrees they’re at least trying to lower the chances of it happening. They also take their dogs back.


"I already told you, the vet checked my dog and said she was healthy, so why do you keep assuming she is vicious and has health problems? Why would I have to take any dogs back? They will all be in good homes."




> If you want to breed your dogs because you love them so much and want a piece of them – you’re MUCH better off purchasing another pup from your breeder. Not only it will be more like your dog (if you breed your dog only half of the pup will come from your dog, the rest will be the mate, besides he might not pass a lot of his characteristics on) but it’s also much cheaper, you don’t stand a chance of losing your bitch and pups to birth complications and you also won’t end up with another 5-10 pups with unknown health history and temperament that will have a harder time being placed to good homes. The kind of homes you’d want for your pups don’t want to buy from you, they’re looking for breeders that health test and title.


"How dare you assume no one would want my puppies? How do you know what kind of home I want for them, and why do you think no one would buy from me? The guy down the street breeds his dog every year and the puppies sell like hot cakes. Everyone who meets my dog wants one of her puppies! Why should I buy another puppy when I can just breed my female and have another puppy for free?"




> And if you’re doing it so you and your children can ‘experience the miracle of life’ then to quote a shelter worker, “you should volunteer in a shelter and experience the miracle of death first”.





> I’m not trying to be mean, I myself was very close to breeding my dog so I definitely understand the desire and the thought process. But then people learn about what goes into good breeding and what problems can come out of bad breeding and they usually decide against it.


"Again you rudely assume I'm doing a bad breeding. My female is healthy, has a great temper and lots of people want puppies from her. I don't have to go to a shelter because I know NONE of my puppies will ever wind up there. They will all go to good homes."



Yeah. This aint our first rodeo.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lol, Freestep, I guess. They'd have to not know how to read but I'm sure that is the case a lot of the time. My post is long and I doubt anyone would truly read it, they're not looking for reasons not to do it, they're looking for validation and they'd at best skim thru any post that wasn't validating. 

We can argue about this some more for the fun of it but I already changed my mind after reading some replies here. I now realize why these threads go the way they go and after 2-3 threads I'm sure i'd lose patience myself. 





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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Kaimeju. Who should be asking the questions? You are on your first GSD if I'm not mistaken.

Lalacha. Aren't you on your first dog or at least first GSD.

This was my point about new people not understanding who is asking them questions and what qualifications other than personal opinion does the person have, to tell them they should not breed.

I usually have a personal opinion about whether some of them should breed but I'm not qualified to tell them that with any authority. I'm not going to interrogate people. There are enough on here who will though.

I liked Freesteps new approach. She shared her personal experience about her desire to breed and then change of heart. That to me is about the best anyone can do.

Animals dying in shelters is a topic of it's own. 
People breeding that shouldn't is only a part of the equation. People keeping dogs intact that shouldn't, Owners who dump pets etc... 

I would add some so called reputable breeders who are weakening the breed by aiming for certain traits at the expense of others.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I am. Both my first dog and a first gsd. But I don't understand what you're saying. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I am. Both my first dog and a first gsd. But I don't understand what you're saying.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Never mind, I got it. You're saying that I don't have the credentials to ask the questions. But no one does, this is an anonymous forum, there are no breeder licenses and everyone can ask questions and give opinions. Just like everyone can feel free to ignore them and do what they want. 


Anyway, i'd probably never quiz or judge anyone anyway.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I will say though that there are people that don't know about the shelter situation and how breeding should be done. It might sound hard to believe but it's true.


It DOES sound hard to believe, but I don't discount that what you're saying is true. It's also hard to believe that people still don't know about puppy mills, or realize that that's where pet store puppies come from. But again, there are people who don't - we see them here from time to time. 

You can't judge people for their ignorance, as hard as it sometimes is to fathom. Kudos to you for being gracious enough to admit it! :thumbup:

I will say that we considered breeding our first GSD, (hubby grew up with them, but Sneaker was our first together), who we got in 1986, after we got married and bought a house. She lived in relative good health until 2 weeks before her 14-1/2 birthday, so I guess we could have done worse. 

Because there was always that lingering possibility, since she was such a terrific dog, and there were always people interested in a puppy from her if that ever came to be, we didn't spay her until she was 8+ years old. But we never got around to breeding her, and we also never even considered breeding any of our dogs since then. 

We did often comment that if we were rich we would have cloned Sneaker. :wub:


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> Okay, you really want me to pick this apart like a wannabe-breeder would? Okay. Here's how it will go.


Heyyy, I didn't know you did impressions (and pretty good ones, at that!)...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

lalachka said:


> Never mind, I got it. You're saying that I don't have the credentials to ask the questions. But no one does, this is an anonymous forum, there are no breeder licenses and everyone can ask questions and give opinions. Just like everyone can feel free to ignore them and do what they want.
> 
> 
> Anyway, i'd probably never quiz or judge anyone anyway.
> ...


Like Cliff says, all opinions aren't equal. I have learned a lot on this forum and appreciate a number of people for sharing their knowledge but there is also some very bad advice here too. IMO.

There are those I listen to and a lot I don't. I'm sure some don't care for what I have to say.
If you stick around you will find out who has a lot of experience and who doesn't.

I like to listen to the few who are left that have 10,20,30 or more years worth of experience. They are usually the most reasonable too. 

There are some threads though that have an entertainment value even if nothing is learned.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Kaimeju. Who should be asking the questions? You are on your first GSD if I'm not mistaken.


Definitely not me! Lol. I stay out of those threads unless someone is asking for factual information or something really basic that can be verified elsewhere. I'm not going to grill someone about their dog when my own is just a sweet pet.

I mean, wouldn't it stand to reason that people who are already breeding GSDs would be the best ones to answer? I know that doesn't always happen, but I just assume the OP probably wants the opinion of breeders since that is what they're asking about. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> It DOES sound hard to believe, but I don't discount that what you're saying is true. It's also hard to believe that people still don't know about puppy mills, or realize that that's where pet store puppies come from. But again, there are people who don't - we see them here from time to time.
> 
> You can't judge people for their ignorance, as hard as it sometimes is to fathom. Kudos to you for being gracious enough to admit it! :thumbup:
> 
> ...


I think anyone, especially on their first dog, go thru this stage when they fall in love with their animal, start to think about what will happen when they're gone and think that breeding him doesn't sound too bad. Not many follow thru but i'd imagine almost everyone had the thought at one time or another. 

If you know about breeding and shelters you probably decide against it pretty fast, if you don't and think all dogs are bought from newspapers from families breeding their own (because that's what you see a lot) then the thought stays for longer and you might actually follow thru. 

I think the longer you had the thought the harder it is to let go of it. Maybe that explains why some people are so adamant on doing it. 

I like to try to understand why people do things, whether it's breeding or committing crimes. I believe that under different circumstances we would be pretty surprised and disgusted about the things we are capable of. I try not to judge for that reason. 


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