# What do you think of this show bitch?



## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I am thinking about acquiring this girl for AKC show. She is 4 months in the pic. She is now 7 months. I am waiting on an updated stack photo. Her head is blocked up but remained feminine and she has filled out more. So, what do you think of her in this pic?
Thanks!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Love her color, but her pasterns look TERRIBLE.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'd rather see her 7mth old stack picture before making an opinion ))


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I agree-- amazing pigment, beautiful bone, too.. but those pasterns are a big drawback.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The eas look longer, soft. I'd want them up by 4 mos, if I were going to show.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm working on getting it from the breeder. But couldn't her pasterns be worked on with strengthening and some Ester C or the like? Her ears are fully up at this point.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

In addition to the horrible pasterns, she also looks weakly ligamented in the rear. I imagine she'd gait very sloppily. Also, her rear looks a lot more angulated than her front so I would be concerned about balance in gaiting. Her head looks VERY nice. I see way too many collie-fine heads in the AKC showlines so her head is a welcome breath of fresh air. 

Can you post a photo of the pup at 7 months or maybe of the parents?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm not sure if the pasterns can be worked on at 7 months? Maybe they've improved since this photo though.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:But couldn't her pasterns be worked on with strengthening and some Ester C or the like?


If the pasterns needed that much help, I certainly would not purchase for showing/potential breeding. Pasterns are a very important part of the movement (not just trotting) assembly and there is no room in a working breed for weak pasterns. If she's still like that at 7 months, I personally would pass.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Id' say strengthing and supplementing for stronger pasterns would be a crap shoot, I'd prefer to start out with strong pasterns vs "hoping" I could fix the problem..but again, I'd like to see a pic of what she looks like stacked now at 7mths .)


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

This is the sire:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/525306.html

This is the dam:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/542451.html
Her dam went BIF two years ago.

This pup was the pick of two litters.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

nice pedigree)

why are they looking to place her? at 7 mths there must be something that, they, the breeder has decided is not for them?

Certainly not saying she isn't 'show' material, again, I'll wait on your 7mth old stack pic ))


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

The breeder had placed her with a friend to retain co-breeding rights. But, the friend's health has now deteriorated and the breeder took her back. The breeder has 3 other up and coming bitches and wants to place this one, as she still has some of the bloodline.
And yes, I really like the pedigree 
I'm still waiting on the pic 

Her breeder says, "She is nicely structured, with a good side-gait." like her mother, who took BIF 2 years ago.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

My personal opinion, I'd look for a more moderate dog. The sire and dam seem to be very weak in the rear. Are your goals all-breed or specialty? I'm no expert but it looks like these lines are more geared to the specialty shows. The pup also seems to tend toward the dam; straighter shoulder and a heavily angulated rear. I can't imagine that looks good at any gait but again I'm not an American showline person and certainly not a fan of any of the specialty lines.

Regardless, if this bitch still has weak pasterns and still shows a weakly ligamented rear, I would pass even if I was looking for an AKC show prospect. Weak legs simply look atrocious and uncomfortable to me.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Besides the pasterns, I question wether the ears came up on their own or needed help. While not the "end of the world" if they needed help, it is NOT a desireable trait as far as I am concerned. (Especially in a potential breeding dog.)


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm probably looking more for an AB, but one that would have a chance at holding her own at Specialty. I'd like to be able to go to the National as well as futurities possibly. 
I just got another email from her breeder (who is fabulous to talk to) and she is waiting on her son to come over to get a new stacked photo. She said that her pasterns were as low as they got in that photo, but they are totally up now.
Again, I know you are waiting on the photo


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I friend of mine use to breed AM lines. If my memory serves me right she liked the Andretti stuff but not high on the Sundance Kid line. 

DianaM, there is a large difference in AM line pups and German Pups. A lot of AM lines are loose as pups and tighten up. 

I would also want to know if the ear stood up on their own? I have a thing about ears.

I would like Diane like to see a 7 month picture. There are some pups at 4 months old I wouldn't give ya 2 cents for but by 7 months looked much better.

Good points, appears to have a nice foot, seem large at 4 months but not super long toes I hope that didn't change. Dark Pigementation. Nice long bottom line to compliment her long top line. I would hope there was a large improvment in the pasterns.

Val


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks Val! Very helpful critique to go along with the other great help I have gotten so far! 
Ok, you are gonna kill me, but this is what I have of her at 7 months until the breeder's son comes over, lol.










Re ears: They were standing on their own, but a little loose, so she taped them and they are perfect now.
She is within the breed standard as well.


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't really know about American lines, but she looks beautiful in the bottom picture. It looks like you are trying to add another to your pack, are you still planning on showing Kimber as well? I thought she was cute also, but I'm partial to sables, although I read that they aren't as popular in AKC rings.

Didn't you also recently adopt a rescue? Or are you just fostering him? It looks like you are going to have your hands full! Good luck on finding your new pup if this female doesn't work out, can't wait to see stack pics =).


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I am going to venture just from that picture that she has matured decently. Tough to say on the pasterns, but I see that she has gained some more tan on the legs than her 4 mounth old picture. Darn snow I can't see her feet and pasterns.

OK, good that the ear went up on their own. A little loose can be also helped with more chewing and some knox gelatin. 

A close up face profile and close up face would be nice. Eye color is important to me, I hate light eyes and I would like to see what her stop looks like.

When my friend is feeling better I can check with her, but pretty sure Andretti line carries nice bone.


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## kathyb (May 16, 2007)

I thought you just took in an all black GSD??????


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

Kathyb, I think she adopted an all black GSD just to save him, and placed him with an all GSD rescue who has a potential home lined up for him. I just finished reading the thread myself.

I am glad he found a home! 

Hopefully Kimber wasn't too shaken from the incident, I know the OP said that she hoped her drive wasn't affected so maybe she is thinking sport for Kimber and show for your new pup?


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Yes Jkim, that is exactly what happened. I adopted the all black GSD from the shelter because he wasn't posted anywhere and essentially had a day and a half to live. He has been placed with a breed rescue and they do have a potential home lined up for him.
And yep, I'm partial to my sables too, but Kimber is only 1/2 American and I don't know if she will angle out enough to show. It's always a possibility but as of now, Kimber will be sport and I'm looking for show for the new pup.


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## Prinzsalpha (Jul 6, 2005)

Wow, I just cant keep up with your comings and goings. LOL.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Well I apologize for being active on the rescue board and trying to offer my home to fosters that were in need. I don't think that disqualifies me from also wanting to participate in "papered" activities.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would like to see the 7 month photo also. Her sire and dam have similar faults (long back, short croup and a bit straight in the shoulder).


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

I think Kimber could do well in both personally but to be honest I do not have any experience regarding the show ring. She does seem to have the angulation and she received some nice comments on her critique at 11 weeks. I looked at her pedigree on the database and she appears to be more like 70% American, so really she could end up with the angulation you are looking for =). She may even be better in the ring than in sport, you never know. But if you truly want a dog to succeed in the show ring maybe it would be better to look at an older prospect. In any case, good luck with your search and have fun with your new pup!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> QuoteianaM, there is a large difference in AM line pups and German Pups. A lot of AM lines are loose as pups and tighten up.


Both parents still seemed loose to me though I'll grant you not as bad as the pup. I guess that's just because I'm used to firmness like this:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/510461.html










Another ding against the bitch that she had to have her ears taped, but that's just me and I'm a stickler for ears that ought to be able to stand unaided.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> Both parents still seemed loose to me though I'll grant you not as bad as the pup.


What does this mean?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

They just look loosely ligamented, like they'd be a bit "floppy" while gaiting and especially while walking. It could also be just more angulation than I am used to seeing but both parents look like they'd be "floppy" in the rear while walking and gaiting. It would be something to impact the dog's agility.

Of course, I am no expert. I just know what I like.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Gotcha. I just didn't know what you meant. (I don't like that look either.) No "jelly legs" for me!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Some of the Falkrigia and Caisson dogs look really nice and firm. Would love to see vids of them moving.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Ok I have been posting pics as the breeder sends them. She's out in the freezing snow getting pics for me. And she is convincing her son to come over and take some stack pics before the snow storm they are supposed to be getting.








Anyway, here is a head shot and also a shot that shows her pasterns have indeed gone up.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

VERY nice head. I wish more Amlines had heads like this bitch. Stellar. Love the ear set and shape. Eyes could be darker. Pasterns definitely firmed up, would prefer to see less rear angulation to balance with the front. 

The best thing she has going for her, IMO, is her head.







That is a REAL German shepherd head.



> Quote: She's out in the freezing snow getting pics for me.


Poor thing! The things we do for our dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I like her head at this point as well,,In the top pic, I'm not sure about that right ear, it's probably the sideways standing,,from the pic angle it's not as straight as the left..(picky me))

I DO like her color, of course I am always drawn to the really dark dogs..pasterns don't look bad,,not concerned about her rear, she's am line,,they have some 'spring' to their step..

Glad the breeder is so helpful LOL,,she must be freezing her butt off LOL...

I'd like to see a straight on head shot, and that stack ))))
diane


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Ok so here they are. The requested shots. She is leaning a little bit in the stack, but has not been trained to stack, so I think it is pretty darn good. It was also freezing butt cold outside and slippery on the snow, so I'm not gonna critique the wonderful lady too much for the shots.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I love her coloring and head. Gorgeous.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

...there still looks to be some problem with her ear symmetry. i don't know how crucial that is in the ring. but over all i think she's gorgeous, nice color, and looks quite mature for 7 mos.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

So the question would be... would you get her? AKC show and potential breeding prospect assuming passing OFA, cert, etc...


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Breeding would depend on temperament assuming the hips and elbows pass OFA. Her pasterns improved, she has developed a nice chest, but like so many have lost the angle on the front shoulder and her being black makes it even harder to see. 

She is from what little I know more of a Speciality than All Bred and if that is what your goal is you could do worse and you could probably do better, so probably right in the middle of the road.

Just curious have you checked her dentation?

Val


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The only thing I don't like about her is that she seems overly long in the back, and thus a bit soft. I'd also like a darker eye.

Is that Destiny by chance? Or Devine?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Still seems way too angulated in the rear with a comparitively straight front (hard to see her front in the 7 mo pics so I'm going off the younger photos). I get no sense of balance with this dog. Her head is nice, I would agree with the comments on her ear symmetry. Just for showing, she could be fun but if you are looking to add her to an existing breeding program or use her as a foundation bitch, it would be a good idea to pass.

I have to also say that the pasterns seem to have "melted" a little in that last stack photo. In the one with her by herself in the snow, maybe she was focused on something that caused her to stand taller in the front a little thus making for nicer pasterns. Too many leg issues, IMO. Of course the photo conditions can exaggerate a lot of this. The breeder can't get an indoors photo of her standing on a hard surface? I know she's working hard on stacking her outside but she needs to be on a hard surface that's easy to stand on.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Here is a shot that shows her front a little better...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If you like her lines, like what you see then all you can do is take a chance. Unless you can see her in person and watch her move you will always be taking a chance no matter what we say. 

Good luck.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: CustomKimberSo the question would be... would you get her? AKC show and potential breeding prospect assuming passing OFA, cert, etc...


If it were me, no. I would pass. She is too extreme for my taste. I don't like the ear issues she had and still don't like the way they look. In the head shot, her eye rims look "loose". The way she is standing I wonder if she has movement like an "egg beater"?


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Yes, If I force myself to look at her objectively, then you guys are right. I think I will pass on her and hold off on the Am bred until I can really find what I am looking for.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are you going to get into showing? I don't know much about Am lines and their lines but I've been told that it's very competitive, showing GSDs in the AKC ring. If you are more concerned with being able to show (as in, doing it yourself and not having to hire a handler), what about a German line? The way they are shown the owners *have* to be involved. It looked lame to me at first but it's fun and not so hard for someone new to get into without having to spend thousands and thousands on a dog and handler. With a German dog you can easily to very well in UKC as well, where you can show the dog yourself (no pro handlers allowed).


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

CustomKimber, good luck on your hunt! Are your plans just for a show dog or for a show dog/potential breeding candidate? I think looking for another dog is a wise choice if the latter is on your list. The very last photo you've posted looks downright painful to me and I know there are many winning Amlines out there that are much sturdier in the rear.

Keep us updated!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

The stack photo, well I kinda don't put alot of stock in it, only because 1. she is young and never been stacked,,and a stack photo on an inexperienced dog (and even experienced) can be exaggerated, maybe not on purpose, but it can..

I like her color, I like her head, her ears look 'ok',,what I'm not crazy about, (and it could be that she's young and it's JUST ME!)
she's got alot of body going on,,her large body makes her look a tad out of proportion,,again that's just ME..

Would I buy her for show/breeding? (providing she passed all health testing),,Not sure,,I'd have to have a bomb proof temperament, and watch her move..

One thing I found, and this was years ago when I was showing my bicolor dog,,it's very hard to show/win with a black/bicolor dog,,certainly things have probably changed since I showed my bicolor.

I tend to agree with Val, I think , who said something to the effect,,there's probably worse but there's probably better to..

Good luck with your search
diane


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