# I Need Some Encouragement/Advice/Ideas Please



## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

We've been on raw here for 3 days now and the dogs are responding beautifully! I couldn't ask for a better response. But there are problems: 

1. The Work
2. Cost
3. Availability/Variety

1. *Work*: I know I'm making a great deal of work for myself by insisting on grinding the food. I don't know how to 'get over' my fears about it. Suffice it to say, my husband and I are very concerned about bone impaction. But if it ever happened, I feel like he would never forgive me. He would, of course, but I would harbor a great deal of guilt. And I don't know if I would ever be able to relax about it in the meantime. My husband is very supportive and willing to do *whatever *he can to support the venture of raw, but if one of our dogs got sick or impacted and died, I feel like it would crush him and me as well. So, until and unless I can get past this fear, I'm unpackaging, cutting up to fit in the grinder and grinding every single piece of chicken, packaging into meal size containers and freezing. Sitting down to do nearly 50 lbs of chicken parts every week takes a great deal of time, if I am to have *any *kind of life outside the abattoir that our kitchen has become. 

DH is willing to get a larger grinder if we need to, so I wouldn't have to cut up the pieces, and I'm willing to just grind the larger bones (legs, thighs) and let the dogs handle the rest. So, I could ease this problem partially, which I probably will do, if we decide to stick with raw. 

How unreasonable am I being about this bone phobia? What are the risks? Depending on who I talk to and which site I read, it's all over the map. I've seen the X-rays of impacted dogs. I hear a horror story every day on the rawfeeding yahoo group of dogs being sick, vomiting, not eating... I also hear the stories of people feeding 6 dogs for 12 years and never one problem... 

2. *Cost*. _(As long as DH is employed, this isn't a major issue. But it's on my mind anyway)_. Before I started, I figured that if we could keep our average cost to $1 per pound of meat, then it would be about the same cost as kibble. I got agreement from DH on that premise. As long as I'm feeding chicken, that's no problem. But the other cuts of meat (except for pork shoulder and maybe beef brisket and kidney) are going to drive that average up. Even pig's feet are more expensive. So, I'm not going to be able to keep the cost down because of number 3, which is...

3. *Availability/Variety*: I live in a small town up in the mountains, an hour away from the freeway. The closest thing we have to a butcher is a private abattoir who does work for individuals. If I had a cow, and could get it to him, he'd butcher it for me, but he can't legally pass on anything to me from other people's cows. Or goats or anything. He would give me some bones for a "donation" but that's it. There's nothing else here. No fish shop, no yahoo group, nothing on craigslist, none of the 3 grocery stores butcher their own meat. It all comes prepackaged. I can't get anyone to ship me anything for a reasonable price. I won't be able to feed the dogs the variety that they need. All I've got (for $1 per pound) is chickens, pork shoulder, beef brisket and some livers. That's not enough of a variety. I see people getting deals for $.40 a pound and it makes me want to cry! 

So, if anyone has any advice, information, thoughts or ideas on my dilemma, I would really appreciate hearing from you. 

Thanks a lot. 

Wavering on uncertainty, 
Carla


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## Jennifer McClellan (Mar 7, 2008)

Carla I can totally understand. I have asked our local butcher for scraps that he is going to throw out and for meat that is on its last day to sell but can still be used for another week. My 2 puppers refuse chicken so I am having to feed beef for now. This is also my first week of feeding raw and it is overwhelming especially if the food is not readily available. Here is a good link to use, Lauri gave it to me when I started feeding raw http://www.rawdogranch.com


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

Do you have a freezer? I think that would solve the problems.

I feed ground RMBs. I usually pay about $1.35/lb for chicken and turkey already ground. Less if I buy in larger quantities...it is absolutely worth a bit more $ to not have to do the grinding myself. Been there, done that...

What about trying to find a source for chicken backs? These are great for feeding and not as "scary" as load bearing bones like legs & thighs.

I think you need to determine where your nearest sources are...I participate in a co-op that makes runs every other month. There are people that drive several hours for huge amounts of food. 

I live in a metropolitan area with great resources and I still have a freezer...I buy about 2 months worth at a time.


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

DH is willing to buy a freezer just for this. So storage isn't really a problem. 

I have tried to find a source for chicken backs. My only luck was WalMart. I think people don't know what it's like living in a small town. There's no chicken processing here. Maybe in Deming. 

My nearest sources would be an hour away (Deming). I could easily drive there once a month if I had to. I guess I will look into that. I want this so bad! Thanks.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: FourIsCompany
> 
> How unreasonable am I being about this bone phobia? What are the risks? Depending on who I talk to and which site I read, it's all over the map. I've seen the X-rays of impacted dogs. I hear a horror story every day on the rawfeeding yahoo group of dogs being sick, vomiting, not eating... I also hear the stories of people feeding 6 dogs for 12 years and never one problem...


I can only speak from experience. Over the past 8, 9 - I can't remember how many - years I have fed:

Neke
Tessa
Remi
Riggs
Sadie
Tazer
Winnie
Kaynya
Mauser
Sasha
Kaos
Speed
Goofy (while he was here)
Sparks (foster Lab)
8 (or so) assorted small breed foster puppies
5 cats

I know I'm missing someone. Basically, if a dog came to stay with us for more than a couple days they were switched to raw - cold turkey.

In those years and to those dogs I've fed over *TEN THOUSAND POUNDS* of assorted raw meaty bones - the majority being chicken parts (leg quarters, backs, necks, wings).

I have never once had a dog become impacted with bone. The closest I came was with Remi. He would get constipated to the point where I had to put on a rubber glove, lube it up with Vaseline and help him out. Not fun for either of us. We went through that maybe 3-4 times before I found the cause - he couldn't handle turkey necks two days in a row. It was too much bone for him and made him constipated.

I've never had a dog have ANY internal injuries from eating raw bones.

If it's such a common issue, statistically speaking shouldn't I have encountered more of it by now?

Let's look at just one dog - Mauser. Since the beginning of the year Mauser has consumed over 198 POUNDS of raw meaty bones. Again, mostly chicken stuff. NEver had a problem.

None of us can change your mind about this. The best we can do is tell you our stories.









One thing I can suggest - instead of grinding how about whacking? Get yourself a good strong mallet and whack the bones to break them up. You can do that right before feeding them so you don't have to do the work twice.



> Quote:*Cost* and *Availability/Variety*.


My best suggestion - invest in a large chest freezer just for the dogs and find someplace to buy in bulk. Even if it's a two hour drive to get there - the amount you will save will pay for the trip (which you should only have to make every other month, maybe).

Go talk to the managers at the restaurants near you (sit down type, not fast food). Ask where they buy their meat. Ask them if they would be willing to add a bit to their next order for you. OR, contact the place they buy it from and ask if they sell direct.

I get most of my raw meats from a meat processor about 2 hours from me. There are a bunch of raw feeders in my area so we go in on a big order and they deliver it for free. Big as in 2000+ pounds. But you don't need to order THAT much!









When I first started raw feeding I found a place about an hour from my house that let me 'make up' a company name and then sold directly to me. I would drive my van to get it, lay a tarp down AND put the boxes in large garbage bags just to be safe (didn't want the van stinking of meat juice).

Later, after I met DH and we moved another hour from the place we bought a tralier to hook up to the van. We use it for other things but it made getting the food much easier. About every two months we would head down there to stock up. We were feeding 4 GSDs and two smaller dogs so we had to go that often.

It's really nice having it delivered locally! And, if we place an order big enough (I think it's 500 pounds), they will deliver right to our door!

You may have to do some serious leg work at first to find a supplier, but it WILL be worth it in the long run.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Bone Phobia, LOL!

The only time I had a bone problem was when Doerak broke an already chipped tooth on a pork neck bone. I no longer get those. 

Otherwise, my dogs have even managed to crunch up turkey legs and never had a problems. Heck I've given my dogs whole chickens to work on on their own. 

When switching a new dog to raw, I am careful about the type of bones I feed, but only until their tummies are used to the raw food. So, about a week. 

But I totally hear you on the cost. I get most of my dogs' meat from Walmart. It's mostly chicken and ground beef, ground chicken. Turkey necks.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You can get a cheap freezer on Freecycle! Craigslist! Or, they are fairly affordable at Lowes and HomeDepot, too. (the kind withOUT the drawers, the mini-chest type, saves room)

Your dogs will not get impacted from crunching up a chicken quarter. I remember being panic-stricken, too! Nothing ever happened. Lauri was right. Every person on the forum who feeds raw was right. My friends who feed raw was right-- AND-- even my VETERINARIAN was right! (yes, a vet who pushed feeding RMBs whole!) No impactions. No bone slivers doing any damage. Why not? Because dogs are designed to handle a big fat chicken quarter easier than kibble. Also, I fed chicken bones, and chicken are killed at 12 weeks of age, baby birds with soft, soft bones that turn to a mush with our dog's tummy acid. Gross, but safe! Bones are safer than feeding kibble. On kibble, Grimm had SIBO, confirmed with several fecals, antibiotics never helped for more than a few days at most. On raw, he has star-spangled, blue-ribbon poops.

The work of raw: I have learned NOT to pre-make the meals. It goes faster if I have stuff thawed in the fridge, throw in the scale bowl an RMB, a hunk of MM, a teeny chunk of OM, and dump the whole thing in his food bowl. QUICK. Sometimes, I toss in a blob of frozen spinach, or pureed apple, or a couple of berries. He gets a yogurt blob thrown in and I chuck in a fish oil capsule and vitamin E. A brewers yeast tab too. It takes no time to feed him!


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

Carla~

I can totally empathize with you on small town living! Heck my closest Walmart is a half hour away. I think you can still do raw, but its going to need some creativity on your part to make it work. A freezer will definately make it alot easier to take advantage of the good deals when you stumble on them. The butcher guy that can't sell or give you the unwanted parts....I wonder if he would be willing to share a few names of people he does processing for on a regular basis. My thinking is that while he can't give stuff to you, the owner of the animal being processed certainly can. I have also used freecycle with some success. As far as the bone fear, I think its a personal decision, but I have to throw this out there....eating bones, etc is a perfectly normal thing for a dog...they were designed perfectly for it. I believe the chances of having a fatal issue because of feeding RMB's are extremely low...probably lower than having a potentially fatal accident from doing something that you "do" do. Good luck though, I know it is rough, but if you want something bad enough, we find ways to make it happen.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

I have been feeding raw for over 2 years and have not had any problems with bones. Maybe your local butcher would be willing to grind your chickens for you?

ETA: Hunters are an excellent source for raw. If you don't know any personally, you could put a wanted ad in the paper or put up flyers.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Have you looked at Carnivore Feed?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ahlamarana. Maybe your local butcher would be willing to grind your chickens for you?


Commercial butchers won't grind meat with BONES for people. They would have to purchase a separate grinder and most won't cover that cost.


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## boscopup (Jun 17, 2003)

Hopefully you'll be able to get over your fear of bones. I've been feeding raw for 9 years, have been on the raw feeding lists that whole time... I honestly don't remember a single case of bone impaction. I do know someone whose dog choked on kibble and have seen a few other cases online.

On a raw feeding list, you're going to see more "trouble" posts because that's usually what people post about. They don't go there to post "Hey, my dog ate a whole chicken tonight and he didn't throw up or get diarrhea or get a bone impaction or choke or..."







If you went to a kibble feeding list, I'm sure you'd see mostly problem posts there too - "My dog isn't doing well on xyz, what should I switch to?" or some such posts. That's the nature of any list on a particular subject. There will be mostly posts from people having problems, requesting help. Look at this forum... There's a whole host of posts about problems with GSDs in the Health forum, so do GSDs in general tend to be riddled with health problems? And in the Behavior section, there's all kinds of posts about behavioral problems. Are GSDs bad dogs? No!









I think you're probably overanalyzing the diet a bit much... Variety is good, but you don't have to have a million different types of meats every day or even every week. My dogs primarily get chicken and a bit of beef. They occasionally get some pork neck bones or maybe some turkey. But on a regular basis, they just get chicken and beef. I am lucky that there's a ground raw supplier about 45 minutes away who has a beef muscle meat/organ meat mix for $0.90/lb, which is CHEAP compared to what I can get just ground beef for these days, and he also has ground whole chickens (with bone and organs) for the same price, which I feed my cats (only because they drag whole pieces around the house and I have young children crawling all over the floor). This guy freezes the mixtures, then cuts it into cubes that are about 5oz, give or take (they vary in size a bit), and I just give the dogs frozen cubes for their muscle/organ meat. Very easy. You might check this guy out, as he does ship, and if you ordered a lot at once, the shipping might work itself out. I drive over there and pick it up, so don't know how much per lb it ends up being when you ship it.

Canine Performance Fuels


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Oh, I like that sit-down restaurant idea.


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks so much, you guys! I didn't realize how much I wanted this until I started thinking about giving it up this morning. I cried because I really can't bear taking this away from them. They love it SO much and are looking and feeling so good! To take it away from them would absolutely break my heart (and theirs). 

We'll probably be getting a freezer this weekend. 

*Question:* Why a chest freezer instead of an upright? Chest freezers are manual defrost and it will be in our large kitchen. I'd much rather have a large upright freezer with auto defrost. 

I really hope to work through the issues I have soon. I'm usually a very calm and mellow person and this stress is making me crazy. So I REALLY appreciate your support. REALLY! Thanks!


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: FourIsCompany1. The Work


Re the work: I don't grind, never have had a problem with my two dogs over the past several years. But do I think there is no risk? No, there is always a risk to anything you do. But if your dog is healthy, has good teeth, doesn't gulp their food and you don;t over do the bone then I believe the risks are minimal and that the benefits greatly out weight them. 

And I always stay with eye or ear distance while they eat in case there is an issue.

I have found the best way for us to minimize work is to have enough freezer space so that I can go buy 8 weeks worth of food for the two dogs and package it all at once. Takes me and my other about 2-3 hours of cutting bagging and cleaning- but we only have to do it every two months- only 6 times a year. Other then those few hours all we do is grab a bag and feed it to the dog. If I had to do this daily or weekly I couldn't keep up. 



> Originally Posted By: FourIsCompany3. Availability/Variety


Variety doesn't necessarily equal balance and you have enough foods to work with that you don't need to stress this part. One of the reasons I wanted to learn about specific foods and their nutrients vs variety is b/c I didn't constantly want to be searching for new/different and often more expensive foods. I knew what they liked, what they digested well and what I could afford and I used that as my starting point. I've written about this more here, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428679&page=5#Post428679


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: FourIsCompanyWhy a chest freezer instead of an upright?


I wouldn't get a chest, especially if it was my main freezer. I need to be able to get in and out what I need quickly and do not want to be defrosting it. I bought a new model so it is energy efficient even though I realize it uses more energy than a chest.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: FourIsCompanyI'd much rather have a large upright freezer with auto defrost.


Chest or upright is more of a personal preference. You can fit more in a chest freezer but it's easier to get stuff in an upright.

As for the auto-defrost, forget it! It's main purpose is to keep the meat from getting freezer burned. Necessary for people, NOT necessary for dogs!









It will also cost more in electricity.

I have three freezers - 2 chests (100% for the dogs) and one upright (we share but mostly for us). As one chest freezer gets low I move the remaining stuff to the other one and let the first one defrost (if there is any) and then clean it out.

You WILL want to clean out your freezer every so often. No matter how well you package your stuff something ALWAYS leaks!


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## boscopup (Jun 17, 2003)

I have an upright freezer, but it doesn't have auto-defrost. It has a flash defrost where I can press a button and it will defrost everything, but I still have to have a hose attached to drain it all out.

We went way too long without defrosting that freezer, and started to get so much ice built up that half the space on some shelves was taken up by ice. Oops! It got defrosted about 5 weeks ago.

To keep from having to defrost quite as often, take some of the food (a few days or a week's worth, whatever you can fit) out and stick it in your regular fridge freezer, so you're not opening the other freezer door everyday.

I had a huge chest freezer that came with our house (it was in a little shed and was too big to move easily, so the people just let us keep it). That was awesome. I could get a TON of meat in there. It also was a huge power suck though, as it was very, very old. It died one day, and it's still out there simply because it's so huge. I'm thankful I already had the upright in the house. We share it with the dogs. I like to buy extra meat for us and freeze in meal-size portions, so we have the top shelf and the dogs get the rest.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I try to do raw for less than $1/lb too. However, since I tend to get such great deals on chicken quarters (usually for about .70 a lb), I am more willing to spend maybe $1.30 on a different kind of meat since I saved on the quarters.

Jerzey eats mostly chicken quarters and beef. Every once in a while I'll find turkey RMBs on sale or I'll splurge on a novel protein for her to eat to add a bit of variety. Variety is important but, as has been mentioned, you don't need it every day or even every week. I'm sure wild dogs and wolves tend to eat the same kind of animal over and over and over with no health issues.









Bones, oh bones. When researching raw the information you will find depends on the person writing the website. If they're anti-raw you will _always_ find some horror story about a dog dying from bone impaction. If the person is pro-raw all you hear are the benefits. When I started raw I actually wrote a thread on here about that exact problem and asked people to share the downsides of raw or if they'd ever experienced any health issues. The number 1 complaint was the time, but no one even mentioned having experienced bone impaction. You could always research the signs and what to do if your dog DOES suffer a bone impaction so you can be ready, but the chances are slim, in my opinion. 

I don't think that there is anything that anyone can say to banish your fear. We were ALL afraid about feeding bones at first, trust me. You aren't alone there. Just try giving smaller chicken bones, they're super easy for a dog to get through. I think once you see your dogs do it once you'll realize that this is what they were _made_ for! You've just got to dive in head-first, that's the only real advice I can give you.


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks for all the help guys. 

I have fed the dogs raw stuff their whole lives, including bones. And I crossed my fingers and held my breath because I knew it was good for their teeth. But I only did it like once a week. 

We have a small chest freezer downstairs but it's full of buffalo (for us, not the dogs, though I think DH will probably part with some) plus 2 refrigerators and their little freezers. So this new one will be just for the dogs. 

I'm feeling like taking another stab at it. I really want to make it work.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I got a 10 cu ft. Fridgidaire commercial quality chest freezer on Craigslist for $100 delivered up in the mountains to me! It has a ton of room and freezes rock solid on the lowest setting. I've had it about 3 weeks or so now and it barely has ice buildup on it. I figure it will only be maybe 3 times a year I have to defrost and it goes fast with an ice scraper and warm water. 

Lulu has been on the raw chicken quarters for a little over two weeks now and though I was also nervous about the bones (I posted a thread about it as well) so far she has no problems whatsoever with chewing them up and I get less nervous about it every day


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

I'm feeding 4 big dogs. And next year, it'll be 5. I need more than 10 cu ft. Getting a freezer isn't a problem. We're going to get the biggest one we can at the Sears store here. Amazingly we have a tiny little Sears Appliance center here.









I think I'll get less nervous about the bones as I go along. I sure hope so! I get so mad at myself sometimes! LOL


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Four,

If you are feeding four/5 BIG dogs I would suggest looking at getting TWO freezers. Search Craigslist - they are cheap (sometimes FREE) there.

I have my two freezers split my type - RMBs in one and MM/OM in the other. Makes it MUCH easier to find stuff and to know when I'm getting low on certain items.


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

I would love to get two, but we already have 2 fridges with small freezers and a small chest freezer. (and now a large upright that won't be delivered until the 30th! Ugh! Small town life!) So we really have enough freezer space, it's a matter of using it wisely. My husband insisted in buying a freaking whole buffalo (I exaggerate) that fills the small freezer. We're going to start having buffalo for every meal. LOL Buffalo breakfast burrito, anyone? 

The problem with me and craigslist is that I would have to drive 2-3 hours to pick up something that I'm not even sure is going to work when I get it home. I really doubt someone in my town is going to be advertising on craigslist and not in the paper, but I will look.









I'll also get a paper tomorrow and look in there.


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## GSD2LADY (Mar 13, 2009)

THere are butchers that will grind for you. I get my meat from a butcher that makes a "dog mix" and "cat mix". The dog mix is: 
40% chicken drum sticks
20% chicken necks
10% beef heart
10% beef liver
10% tripe
10% ground beef

He sells so much he has trouble keeping up with orders. I order 1-2 weeks in advance.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

GSD2LADY,


I'm so jealous! None of the butchers in my area sell even scrap meat; it's all high quality cuts.


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

Me, too! I don't even have a butcher!


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