# Reactive Issues



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Just in general looking for support and any further advice that anyone might have. I've read the really long fear aggression thread from 2008 on Jane's Onyx and have noted a couple of books to purchase (Click to Calm and Control Unleashed). Sorry ahead of time for the length of this post 

The story of Madix: I asked my breeder for a pup that could do SAR work (HRD or trailing most likely) and agility and said that I had no interest to have a dog geared towards bitework. I needed a dog good with other dogs and able to be around groups of people and high stimulation (SAR) without being phased - she said she would have a pup for me. I got him at 10 weeks old (a friend who got a pup from the same litter brought him from CT to me in MI) and took him to a SAR seminar at Brenda Aloff's in Midland. He was a complete and utter monster there. Extremely reactive - she said he was truly dominant and defensive about it. It freaked out both of the SAR groups I was in so I knew I had a lot of work ahead of me.

We went to the same behaviorist just about every other week from that point until he was about 10 months old (he's 20 months now). He has been in stores, in agility classes - in two different locations from approx 5 months until just over a year old; in basic obedience and intermediate obedience and passed the CGC at 10 months, to dock jumping and agility events just to get used to the atmosphere etc. We started Schutzhund late this summer as well. 

He used to react to EVERYTHING that moved, screaming, thrashing, jumping, lunging - totally out of control. Kept working with him until it got to the point where a dog could brush him and he would ignore. People in my classes did not even know he was reactive. When he was 10 weeks he would growl, hackle and bark at people if they stared and tried to pet him.

We've regressed. I'm not sure why but now we're back to not being ok with people and hardly hanging on to not reacting when other dogs are acting drivey. However, now instead of growling and barking - he is hackling and nipping.

We tried meeting a friendly stranger at Schutzhund on Sunday and he ended up nipping someone's shirt (he always goes for the clothes and tugs). Ok, we flooded him - bad idea, live and learn - don't do that again. During protection he regressed back MONTHS - he was unsure of himself, kept running to me - totally conflicted  I was doing this for a confidence builder because he has a mommy complex (and because we both enjoy it) but I obviously totally confused him so we ended on an easy good note and left it at that. 

Monday night at CGC class I knew we were supposed to work on meeting a friendly stranger. There are 2 instructors and a helper. The instructor we were familiar with was gone. I made a point of bringing Madix up to the other two, treating him for being right beside, having them take his leash, have him lay down and sit and front and he was fine. I discussed with both of them that he was reactive - the helper said she had a reactive dog too and was familiar with Schutzhund and understood. I announced to the class that he was reactive and asked that they not follow the "polite sniffing is ok" rule and to not allow their dogs to jump on us or to attempt to pat him without warning (in the crowd heeling). Everyone was perfect through the whole class. We did the meeting a friendly stranger, meeting stranger with dog, all the walking and turning, walking through a crowd, the separation - I left him with the one instructor and he was wonderful she said - he focused on her and listened and didn't have any troubles the whole time. Waited calmly for me to come back and get him etc. 


Then we did the recall. The helper would stand about 5 feet to the side of the owner and in a really shrill voice call to the dogs across the room and pat her legs and jump around and generally act ridiculous to "see if their dogs would come to her instead". Madix reacted to this. He hackled and barked and was in general worked up. I removed him from the seating area and brought him to a corner where I asked for eye contact and focus - it was spotty but he was trying. Then it was my turn - I said that absolutely not for the shrill and the competition and specifically told the helper that he was reactive towards her and her voice and was having a hard time settling down. She said ok. The instructor asked if she could walk him to the other side of the room and then I'd call him - I said sure, he went right with her - he was still bouncing around and not calmly heeling in place but was offering his attention to her and trying. The helper then came from behind him and brushed his side with her leg - kind of fencing him between her and the instructor. He reacted. He snapped at her, actually managed to nip (this was a DEFINITE nip, not a full mouth bite - he was clearly trying to tug her) her pants' leg and barked. She freaked and took off yelling. The instructor stood still - no correcting or reaction of any kind. He started doing his cry/bark and looked to me and tried to come to me. We all waited for him to settle himself (we're talking maybe 30 seconds for all of this) and then I told her to take him to the opposite side, he could not do that and be rewarded by coming back to mommy. She asked him to pay attention and he did, sat nicely for her - crossed the room for the recall, landed in front and laid down when I told him. Was calm and settled the entire rest of the class. 


The girl came up to me afterwards and said that: just so I knew, he actually did break the skin and that she understands that the "other" stuff I was doing was the reason he was like this and not necessarily this class and that I didn't have to worry, she wasn't going to report it or anything.  I was so upset. I stayed calm though and thanked her and apologized, stayed upbeat while I loaded him up and took him home and then completely broke down when I got here. 


I know these things happen but I feel like I keep inadvertently setting him up for failure - I keep thinking I have my bases covered and then this happens. Now that he's not just growling/barking but nipping and it is not as predictible for me as it used to be - I've yanked him from all of the things I got him FOR (rally, flyball, agility, dock jumping). I'm staying in Schutzhund b/c I love being around other people who love the breed and understand and are willing to work with me but I don't know what to do. I feel like I've been ok'ing him using his mouth more (in protection) so he thinks that's an acceptable way to say "get away from me, you make me nervous" but I've also heard that you have to stick out the protection phases until they really "get it" or it can cause more issues. I'm also emailing with my behaviorist to set up some consecutive appointments so I can work on this more (she was very supportive of me joining a Schutzhund group and was the one to say to make sure I stayed til the end).  I am seriously just so crushed. I was REALLY looking forward to trialing in all the things we've been training for since day one but now I feel like neither of us are ready and I don't want to confuse the poor dog. It also stresses me out way more when I go out and about with him...I'm just feeling really down and like a really terrible owner. If anyone has a positive story to share or advice or anything - would be much appreciated.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Falon, don't get down, you are such a great natural trainer, and look how far you've come with Madix! This is just a stage that Madix is going thru as he matures.
This time of year, he is probably not getting his physical outlet, and his mental state needs that. I would just take a break with the obedience CGC class like you are planning til the weather breaks. Maybe see if you can get him back into agility just for the exercise.
And he does need to know that protection(SchH) is black and white. That will come with maturity and more training, IMO.

If you want to borrow my CU and click to calm books, you can! I'll bring them Sunday.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Sorry you're having problems. 

Are you doing all 3 phases of Schutzhund? Trainers usually try to keep a reactive dog under threshold so I'm wondering if you're doing the protection phase?


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

How can you even think that you're a horrible owner?!?! I think most peole in the situation would have stopped after the second paragraph and either kept the dog locked in a back yard somewhere or would give him up. That was quite an inspiring read. Its amazing how much effort and devotion you put in with Madix. You can also tell how strong of a bond you two developed through all this. I'm not an expert in dog training so won't be giving any advice, but I think with all the effort you have put in, things have to turn for the better eventually. Just wanted to say, Congrats on being a wonderful owner!!


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

crisp said:


> How can you even think that you're a horrible owner?!?! I think most peole in the situation would have stopped after the second paragraph and either kept the dog locked in a back yard somewhere or would give him up. That was quite an inspiring read. Its amazing how much effort and devotion you put in with Madix. You can also tell how strong of a bond you two developed through all this. I'm not an expert in dog training so won't be giving any advice, but I think with all the effort you have put in, things have to turn for the better eventually. Just wanted to say, Congrats on being a wonderful owner!!


 
my thoughts exactly


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Too be honest this sounds like a rehoming situation. Sometimes certain people are not good matches with certain dogs. If I bought a dog as a pup and it grew up to have no drive or be too calm I would have no problem finding a home it will be happier in. Can't fit a square peg in a round hole.


Talk to your breeder and Sch TD and see if they think she would be a better fit in a different home.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

I think that you need to hang in there!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Falon, 

I know Madix and Stark are around the same age (Stark will be 22 months on the 10th) and he can be reactive as well. He was doing so well for so long and just this past month has started to become reactive again. I am not sure what triggered it.

Just today he got very dominant with a spayed female Lab that he met for the first time - this coming from the dog who is social with any and all dogs he meets. He did settle but it surprised me because he has never really done that before - especially with females (the female did jump up on him but still he never had cared before).

Like you, he is enrolled in EVERYTHING imaginable (agility, schH, obedience, rally, etc.) to ensure that he is out and about.

Stark has issues with people mostly (usually when it's one-on-one) and like you, I thought I managed it pretty well but sometimes it slips passed me and he reacts before I have the chance to get away from the situation.

I am actually going to get the "click to calm" book again and re-read it because I have been stressing over his behaviour too.

Please don't be hard on yourself - I know I am as well and it's hard but we are doing our best and really - what more can we do? Keep on trying, keep on working with him. I think maturity has a lot to do with it (along with genetics in Stark's case - mother) and I think these things can be managable.

If you ever need to vent (truely vent) please don't hesitate to contact me via PM or look me up on FB. I know we don't "know" eachother and you have a support system of friends and club members but sometimes it's nice to have a stranger's perspective.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Falon, I know how you feel.

Dakota has never been reactive around people, dogs, are different. Some dogs, not all. I socialized her like crazy.

I too had plans for her. Title her in everything I could. In obedience class during a dumbell retrieve she pinned a poodle. My dreams crashed that day and it has been over a year. Took her to a behaviourist and was making progress and enrolled in regular obedience class again. Although there were no issues I could not relax and was always on gurad while working with her. I was learning to manage her and to read her. It's not easy.

I know it is very difficult not to be hard on yourself. I know I drove myself crazy with "where did I go wrong". I still do, but I'm hoping maturity will set in and I will see a change.

It sounds as if you were making wonderful progress. I think all you can do is move forward to work and manage the dogs we have. I know it is a step backwards but from reading what you have done this far, you will recover from this and we will be reading about your progress. All the best.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

rvadog said:


> Too be honest this sounds like a rehoming situation. Sometimes certain people are not good matches with certain dogs. If I bought a dog as a pup and it grew up to have no drive or be too calm I would have no problem finding a home it will be happier in. Can't fit a square peg in a round hole.
> 
> 
> Talk to your breeder and Sch TD and see if they think she would be a better fit in a different home.


I guess you'd need to see these two in person to know that Madix and Falon are a perfect fit! He is an awesome dog with tons of drive, and very biddable to her. Their bond is incredible, she can lift her pinky finger and he sees it/ looks to her for direction. These past couple of weeks that he is acting out IMO is a maturity issue...a stage he is going thru. 

She is an owner who goes above and beyond what the more than average working dog owner does. 

I hope you were kidding when you suggested re-homing.


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## xenos56 (Jan 30, 2011)

You're not a bad owner whatsoever! Don't give up - things will smooth out. We have an unruly almost-three-year-old and every day it gets a little better.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Stick with it, it's just a backslide due to his age.

Hunther began showing signs of reactivity at about 6 months. I listened to bad advice until he was two years old, when it became apparent that he was a dog fight waiting to happen. I finally took him to a behaviorist, which was the best thing that ever happened to the both of us. 

We stood at the end of a 100 foot tape measure on the ground, and the behaviorist and her non-reactive dog stood at the other end. We then walked toward the other team. At 75 feet, he went eyes open/ears forward/leaning forward. At 65 feet, he actually began to stalk the other dog. At 55 feet, he began to hackle over his right shoulder blade, then down to the base of his tail. At 50 feet, he lost the ability to hear me (I said his name twice, directly into his ear; his ear didn't even twitch from my breath). At 48 feet, he exploded in a lunging, barking, "thank God I had both hands on the leash" fit, and I pulled him away.

Well, we started desensitizing him* at 75 _yards_ from the group of reactive dogs. They were literally at one end of the field while we were at the other. Look at them, look at me, click and treat for about five minutes, then back in the truck. Next session 74 yards, five minutes, etc. Eventually he was working for 45 minutes 25-30 feet away from a group of 4-8 dogs, with no problem. He went on to get his BH, all the way to a Schutzhund III. He's competed at the regional level, where he practiced "reporting in" to the judge with the other team at 4-6 feet for two sets of ten repetitions, with no problem. 

So keep your head up. If I can do it you can, too. 

*We were really desensitizing _me._ When Hunther got his conformation rating, another person handled him in the ring. He went nose to butt with a group of nine other strange dogs, and couldn't have cared less. I was hiding behind my truck and watched the whole thing. 

(Incidentally, the non-reactive dog that my behaviorist used was a pit bull. Sweetest dog you ever saw.)


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Hunther's Dad said:


> Stick with it, it's just a backslide due to his age.
> 
> Hunther began showing signs of reactivity at about 6 months. I listened to bad advice until he was two years old, when it became apparent that he was a dog fight waiting to happen. I finally took him to a behaviorist, which was the best thing that ever happened to the both of us.
> 
> ...


Stories like this give me hope! 

Thanks for sharing.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

rvadog said:


> Too be honest this sounds like a rehoming situation. Sometimes certain people are not good matches with certain dogs. If I bought a dog as a pup and it grew up to have no drive or be too calm I would have no problem finding a home it will be happier in. Can't fit a square peg in a round hole.
> 
> 
> Talk to your breeder and Sch TD and see if they think she would be a better fit in a different home.


I'm confused how rehoming a dog is going to fix its reactivity?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

rvadog said:


> Too be honest this sounds like a rehoming situation. Sometimes certain people are not good matches with certain dogs. If I bought a dog as a pup and it grew up to have no drive or be too calm I would have no problem finding a home it will be happier in. Can't fit a square peg in a round hole.
> 
> 
> Talk to your breeder and Sch TD and see if they think she would be a better fit in a different home.


I kind of find it funny that you suggest this since on your website (linked below your name) you say you can help owners with their aggressive dogs (People-Dog and Dog-Dog aggression). 

Just by the posts Falon (by the way - cool name!) posts about her dogs and all that she does and the post of those who actually know her on the board, I can already tell you that she is more dedicated than most dog owners.

Sad that someone in your situation (dog trainer) would even suggest this without:

1. Meet the dog and assessing the situations on your own

2. Meeting the owner

3. Watching them work together

4. Watching them interact with one another

5. Watching the interactions of both while out and about in society


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Stories like this give me hope!
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


You're welcome! 

I've got to add that I was a little hurt when Hunther went into the conformation ring with the show handler, and didn't even glance at the other dogs trotting around him. Thanks, Hunther (ya bonehead) for pointing out I was a big part of the problem. :rofl:

("Mr. Bonehead" is his unofficial nickname. I love him to pieces, as my grandmother would say.)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would also chalk this backslide to a maturity thing/phase..Some dogs can be really 'touchy'...Of course not having been there, but from what you wrote,,the 'helper'
came up behind him/brushed him with her leg..no excuse, but that could very well 'startle' a 'touchy' dog...they react without thinking..as in reflex..

There are always things any of our dogs do, that we can't fathom them ever doing, are embarrassed with, frustrated over, and wonder where WE went wrong..It doesn't mean we're bad trainers/bad owners or even that we have bad dogs..It's just another glitch in figuring out what's going on and how to work on it..


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Hang in here, Falon. Glad to hear that you are going to continue training in schutzhund. Aren't you training in the same group as Lies and Jane? I really like the sound of your group and I think you and Madix will be able to get through this.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I kind of find it funny that you suggest this since on your website (linked below your name) you say you can help owners with their aggressive dogs (People-Dog and Dog-Dog aggression).



This has nothing to do with Falon's dedication as a dog owner or even having a reactive dog.

Falon has a lot of goals that most pet owners don't have. Most pet owners simply want a dog that they can take out on a walk without trying to eat their neighbor.

Falon wants a dog she can take to agility, to SAR, flyball, etc. She wants a super stable dog that she can anywhere.

Sometimes its ok to realize that you and your dog aren't compatible matches. It's not ok to drop the dog off at a rescue or shelter. I don't know if this dog is drivey or has redeeming characteristics that would make someone interested in buying her. I had a dog that I rehomed because it didn't match my needs. The dog had no prey drive and was a bit nervy with people. It is now living it's life out as a pet. No stress for him because he's not being forced to do something he doesn't enjoy.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

When a dog is put in a stressful/unusual situation the dog will always revert to the default behavior. It means that no matter how much training we put into the dog, titles etc but when the dog is stressed then his mind defaults to what genetics intended. that's why people are always in search for dogs with sound nerves. 

I think if you remember that the reactivity of your dog is not gone but just managed with good training then you will go far with your dog and become a very good handler.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> This has nothing to do with Falon's dedication as a dog owner or even having a reactive dog.
> 
> Falon has a lot of goals that most pet owners don't have. Most pet owners simply want a dog that they can take out on a walk without trying to eat their neighbor.
> 
> ...


Worth mentioning that Madix is a he and not a GSD but a Dutch Shepherd and jumping the gun to re-home at this stage is ridiculous. Many of us will try to give a beloved pet a chance whether they match our needs or not. I brought in another dog for Schh as my female wasn't the right materiel, I'd never re-home her because she didn't enjoy what I wanted from her....


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Worth mentioning that Madix is a he and not a GSD but a Dutch Shepherd and jumping the gun to re-home at this stage is ridiculous. Many of us will try to give a beloved pet a chance whether they match our needs or not. I brought in another dog for Schh as my female wasn't the right materiel, I'd never re-home her because she didn't enjoy what I wanted from her....


 Well said. We often speak of the great bond we have with our dogs. I think you can see it best by reading the OP post. She didn't just say 'I have a dog and its reactive' You can tell in her writing that she is devoted to the dog and the dog to her. I said it before, I actually found it rather inspiring.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Onyx,

Fair enough. We're just not going to agree on this.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I have a reactive female as well...just in our home with new people, and especially children- she loves other dogs. I wouldn't rehome her for the world. No she'll never be a Schutz dog and even though we do a few classes she's a liability I have to watch and manage like a hawk. People often take it the wrong way so your lucky the people in your class are understanding- our first class some retarded lady screams you brought a vicious dog here? I said no a reactive dog and I simply asked you not to pet her until I could tell she was comfortable. It was embarrassing but didn't stop of from going,lol

So your dog is not perfect and stable- oh well like I tell my kids you get what you get and you don't get upset. If he is bonded to you and good in your home with your family you still got a great dog. You can always get another dog for your specific needs if Madix is just too stressed in these conditions. Maybe doing less would be more now you know? Like over scheduled kids Madix may be feeling pressured to be on his best behavior too often and faced with too much of what he doesn't want to handle, or can't?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RVA,
As a dog trainer, do you suggest re-homing to your clients if the dog isn't training to their liking? Or do you look into your toolbox for options to help the dog? Throw away society is not the one I want to live in.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

GSD07 said:


> When a dog is put in a stressful/unusual situation the dog will always revert to the default behavior. It means that no matter how much training we put into the dog, titles etc but when the dog is stressed then his mind defaults to what genetics intended. that's why people are always in search for dogs with sound nerves.
> 
> I think if you remember that the reactivity of your dog is not gone but just managed with good training then you will go far with your dog and become a very good handler.


And there may be a genetic component to his behavior. About 25% of Hunther's offspring behave the same way, but to a much lesser degree. Fortunately, the one out of the second litter went to an owner with prior Schutzhund experience. Ironically, that puppy was the most laid back in the litter box. 

Sorry, buddy; no more girlfriends. I don't need to lay a dog like him on an unsuspecting person. He sure took _me _by surprise.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Worth mentioning that Madix is a he and not a GSD but a Dutch Shepherd and jumping the gun to re-home at this stage is ridiculous. Many of us will try to give a beloved pet a chance whether they match our needs or not. I brought in another dog for Schh as my female wasn't the right materiel, I'd never re-home her because she didn't enjoy what I wanted from her....


Exactly what Jane said.

I am in the processes of researching lines/dogs/breeders, etc. right now because to be honest I want to do things that I know Stark won't enjoy (some of it IS because of his issues others are the mere fact he just 'doesn't have it' which is fine) or be good at. I never once thought of re-homing him because he doesn't meet my goals. I will however bring in another dog who with hope (research, planning, and did I mention research) will be able to accomplish those goals with me - at least this time around I know what to look for and how to stack the cards in my favour.

I don't mean to single you out, I was just very thrown off by your post given the fact that you work with owners and dogs in the same situations (still a companion even though we work our dogs in particular venues).


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> RVA,
> As a dog trainer, do you suggest re-homing to your clients if the dog isn't training to their liking? Or do you look into your toolbox for options to help the dog? Throw away society is not the one I want to live in.



I'm not sure what you are asking.

Typically there are very few situations I would suggest a client rehome a dog. This is one of them. There's a difference between "throw away" and responsibly rehoming a dog that doesn't meet your needs. For some people having a dog that is a pet is more important than any goals. For some people attaining their goals in training or trialing is priority.

Pass judgment if you want too but I don't. It's a personal decision.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

crisp said:


> I think you can see it best by reading the OP post. She didn't just say 'I have a dog and its reactive' You can tell in her writing that she is devoted to the dog and the dog to her. I said it before, I actually found it rather inspiring.


Completely agree. She has a good support system in a behaviorist who has been working with Madix since he was young and a schutzhund club with plenty of good trainers in it. To me those are good things.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Alright, sorry I was gone for most of the day (third shifter) so I am just getting back to read all of the responses. 

First, thanks to all of you who answered and offered support and encouragement and stories of your own dogs. 

@Jane - yes! I would love to borrow that book until I get my own copies in  That would be wonderful. And I can't even describe how desperately I am hoping you are right that he is just going through a maturity phase - catching the hang of Schutzhnd and when we come out the other side we'll be a strong working team. That is my ultimate goal - I want to be a solid team and be able to do anything we put our minds to - not be held back by, what I see, as something he CAN get through...

@Whiteshepherds - yes, we're doing all three phases. Madix is VERY, EXTREMELY low threshold. To keep him below threshold in normal, every day life is darn near impossible. I worked the first 1.5 years of his life to maintain that calmer is better and to offer alternative ways for him to get his energy out. He had progressed a lot and I thought that building his confidence in me and himself in certain situations and offering an appropriate outlet for being in drive would be beneficial. 

Honestly, right off the bat I had positive experiences in my apartment. Whereas before SchH he would growl at anyone that looked at us too long - he stopped growling entirely and had actually not reacted to anyone since we started. I feel it opened his eyes to what threatening behavior really was and that the guys staring as we walked around weren't threatening.

@Crisp, King&Skylar, ClearCreekRanch, Xenos56 - you flatter me. I am only trying to do the best by the dog that I dragged into my crazy life and around to all of the crazy things I expect/want him to do.

@Elisabeth - I feel for you but at the same time, I'm relieved to hear you are going through some of the same things. I have been REALLY hoping it's just an age thing and if I just stick it out he will come back around. But those days that I miss a sign or he shows behavior I thought we'd kicked long ago really bum me out. I will DEFINITELY keep you in mind for venting and I REALLY appreciate the offer  I feel like I've let him down when others see him react and immediately think he's a bad dog. Because I just adore this dog and he is soooo sweet to those he knows and he generally accepts people rather quickly. We're just struggling right now...

I have learned from this as well! I am also researching a ton of dogs/lines/people/breeders and my emphasis is on STABLE and HIGH HIGH threshold lol. A lot of the things I love and excel at with Madix is because his thresholds are low but I think I want to try something different next time around...I am also aiming to stay in state so that I can physically meet and see the parents and the puppies as they develop. AND so that the people that know me and how I train can also eval the puppy that is chosen for me (my behaviorist and my TD). 

@Caledon - you stay positive too. I will be waiting to hear wonderful progress with your girl!! I had the same plans btw - I wanted to put as many titles on Madix as possible!

@rvadog - this is a possibility on my list of "things to try". What I mean by that. I absolutely LOVE this dog. However, if what I expect out of him in my home situation is too much OR he gets to the point where he's "only" a house pet (NOT meant to put anyone down whose dogs hold that role!) because of his issues, I will seriously consider it. 

He was bred to work. He's good at everything I've ever shown him. I would feel terrible if I didn't let him grow to be the best he could be and if I'm not the handler equipped to do that (and I'm not convinced yet, I want to keep trying) then absolutely he will go to someone who is and can give him what I can't. If that means I have to put off my goals of trialing and titling in multiple venues until the next dog, then I will wait. I can put off the things I want/need but I won't make him do the same. HOWEVER, we are not yet to this point so will have to see how time pans out for us.

Also, he is very drivey, loves to please, a great house dog and extremely agile and athletic. Not only that, but he LOVES to work - he lives for it. I know for a fact that other bitework homes (perhaps more ring style than SchH) would be interested in him for his bloodlines alone. Above and beyond the fact that he has the background for it. This dog will NEVER end up in a shelter or a rescue.

@Hunther's Dad - thank you for the story on your dog! I have used MANY of the same methods to get him used to...all of the numerous things that used to set him off lol. But the success you've had with your dog truly heartens me and I will hope that we can accomplish the same!!

@Jakoda - REALLY hoping this is the case! He is my first shepherd so I'm unfamiliar with these stages. I am trying very hard to look at it as a glitch and not as a personal affront to my training/our relationship. I just was so upset after class when I deliberately talked to the instructor and helper about setting him up for success and then that incident happened...

@Jason - yes! I train with Lies and Jane and LOVE LOVE my group. I am sooo very happy with the things they've taught me/helped me with so far and the support that they offer! I feel that (and please correct me if I'm wrong!) that stopping Schutzhund at this point will only confuse him more when he (I think) needs more clarification about what it is we're doing. He's not a bad or mean dog - I truly think he's just confused because when I really think about it - the number of times he has deliberately disobeyed something I've said or a rule I've set are very few and far between.

@Zoey'sMom - you may be right. I am doing a LOT with him. It's been like this his whole life but if he's going through a phase AND he's confused, I might be overwhelming him. I have yanked him from everything except the behaviorist and SchH so hopefully that will help!

Again, thanks to all for the show of support and the great stories and advice. I'm very thankful for the wide array of knowledge I can pull from this board!


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would also chalk this backslide to a maturity thing/phase..Some dogs can be really 'touchy'...Of course not having been there, but from what you wrote,,the 'helper'
> came up behind him/brushed him with her leg..no excuse, but that could very well 'startle' a 'touchy' dog...they react without thinking..as in reflex..
> 
> There are always things any of our dogs do, that we can't fathom them ever doing, are embarrassed with, frustrated over, and wonder where WE went wrong..It doesn't mean we're bad trainers/bad owners or even that we have bad dogs..It's just another glitch in figuring out what's going on and how to work on it..


Well said!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Books Control Unleashed and Click to Calm are on their way!


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

FG167 said:


> Books Control Unleashed and Click to Calm are on their way!


I've just read through this thread and am wondering how you both are doing now? My nearly 18 month old has become reactive to other dogs while on lead so am very interested in your story


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## gracieGSD (Jan 10, 2011)

Wow, this sounds so frustrating for both of you, I am so sorry. I'm not qualified to advise you in any way, but just wanted to comment that my jaw is still on the floor that you drove from GR to Midland for training. Kudos to your dedication


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

FG167 you asked specifically for a dog that would enable you to perform in some SAR or detection field, with no interest in bitework.
You knew the moment that you got the dog that there was a problem.
Did you ask the breeder why they felt that this dog was suitable and what tests had been done to have that expectation. At the very least they should have done some aged hunt and search to see if the dog had tenacity to keep on looking.

This is what the dog is. This is not a phase. You can modify it through behaviour and control but as someone else said this is his default. You always revert to your natural self when under stress. That includes fear .

Look carefully at what you have said quoting you " I have learned from this as well !
I am also researching a ton of dogs/lines/people/breeders and my emphasis is on STABLE and HIGH HIGH threshold " 
and "he was bred to work" -- how many times have I heard that when people throw to dogs together of a breed, maybe even with some working lines , but they may be a terrible mix , a poor match that looks good on paper without actually knowing anything about the dogs and backgrounds . He may have been bred to work but he does not work and can not work because he lacks the basic requirement of sound and stable temperament . You could not do a task with him as a trusted partner and you do your contribution to the work because the majority of your attention will be on the management of your dog . 
You suggest that he would be suited for bitework or ring -- having done ring for a few years and trialed in it and campagne I know that a shy reactive dog would not work -- he would be exposed so quickly . It would do his nerves no good. You can not make the dog something which he is not. 

How ironic that you say other bite work homes would be interested in him FOR HIS BLOODLINES ALONE -- his bloodlines are only as good as the dog that you are dealing with. Maybe this is what went through the breeders mind when she felt that she had a candidate for SAR for you, without testing the individual dog , or maybe understanding the combination of the bloodlines. , and you say Above and beyond the fact that he has the background for it. Is this because he is quick to bite ? 

This is the kind of dog that should not be bred , no matter what his lines are.

You are looking for the polar opposite to what he is in your next dog . That is what should be bred for and with. 

Did you ever get back to the breeder to give her feedback, had she ever provided a dog for specialized work ?

sorry for the fragmented email here -- many phone calls came in to distract me

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I have tried to contact my breeder more than once, no reponse. I got support and advice from the woman that had his sister, whom she rehomed due to similar issues. 

He has been evaluated with and without me present and has been deemed (by more than one evaluator) as being suitable as a single purpose police K-9. That is what he is going to be. If he cannot take the pressure/training - he will be coming back to me and I will manage the best that I can. Every single trainer I have trained under, including my behaviorist and performance trainers, have said that they are so glad I have made this decision. He will excel and not have the conflict that I introduce into his life. 

I do not want a debate about whether this is the right or wrong thing to do with my dog. I have thought long and hard (months and months) about if this is the right thing to do. I believe, for my dog, that it is. I, on the other hand, am a total and complete wreck for making the decision as I love the darn dog, problems or no.

Bianca - I want to stress that my issues as far as dog reactivity were acceptably controllable. My issues with people reactivity, including some of my family members and others he has previously met, were not. 

Carmspack - your statement about he is what he is, is something I have struggled to come to terms with. But, you are ultimately correct. The man who bought him is well aware of the troubles I have had, I did not misrepresent him in any way. I am not interested in putting someone else in the position I found myself in. Or in handing the dog off as something he is not (NOT saying that you implied I was doing that, I just wanted to clarify for myself). The dog is neutered as well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am glad you found the right place for him. People do not understand the needs of SAR handlers at times I think and the incredible need for a stable dog with high thresholds. So sorry you have gone through this. WOW.

Many also don't understand that, while you can work through issues with a pet and avoid the situations the precipitate a melt down you cannot in the SAR environment. After trying to work with one mildly and controllable dog agressive K9 (great with people) I said "never again" -- because any isues and you are constantly on edge worried about what the dog will do.


I do hope that this new situation works out for him.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

FG167 said:


> I do not want a debate about whether this is the right or wrong thing to do with my dog. I have thought long and hard (months and months) about if this is the right thing to do. I believe, for my dog, that it is. I, on the other hand, am a total and complete wreck for making the decision as I love the darn dog, problems or no.


I'm so sorry you had to make that decision, I know it must have been and probably still is very difficult, but it sounds like it was the best thing for Madix. I hope he thrives in his new job.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have seen so many great placements of dogs who did not fit in one place but were better in another. I hope this works out well!

I placed a dog once who was not a fit for me. That dog had a great life working as a dual purpose police dog. My placement changed my friend's life also. He was asked to become an officer and K9 handler when the local police department envied the dog I placed with him. The dog got to do what he loved and my friend enjoyed his new career. A rehoming is not always a bad idea and can often benefit a dog if they find a match there.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

FG167 said:


> I have tried to contact my breeder more than once, no reponse. I got support and advice from the woman that had his sister, whom she rehomed due to similar issues.
> 
> He has been evaluated with and without me present and has been deemed (by more than one evaluator) as being suitable as a single purpose police K-9. That is what he is going to be. If he cannot take the pressure/training - he will be coming back to me and I will manage the best that I can. Every single trainer I have trained under, including my behaviorist and performance trainers, have said that they are so glad I have made this decision. He will excel and not have the conflict that I introduce into his life.
> 
> ...


Got to be an impossibly tough decision! My great sympathy at having to make it!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Thank you for the understanding and incredibly kind words. One of the toughest things I've ever had to decide...and it still hurts. But, knowing I chose best thing for him over what I wanted helps.


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

I'm so sorry you had to make such a tough decision. I can understand a little what you went thru with Madix and you did so much more than I've been able to do with my Zoe. She is so reactive, goes over threshold so fast that she can't take classes anymore. She is the best dog at home, knows her obedience, just can't be around other dogs and some people. I hope Madix found the right place. My hats off to you for all you did for him. You were very dedicated and it showed with everything you did for him.


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