# Pedigree on Aggressive Dog



## GSDLove

Hello,

Some folks in the Aggression forum suggested I post Bailey's pedigree in hopes of getting a better understanding of where his people/dog aggression is coming from.

Thank you forl your opinions.


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## GSDGenes

What kind of home situation is he in? Are his owners experienced with GSDs? Has this dog been well socialized? What age is this dog? This dog's pedigree is approx 3/4 German working lines & 1/4 German show lines. I've seen many adolescent dogs from German lines who were purchased by people who never had a dog before, or had a breed very unlike the GSD in intelligence, activity level, etc & when the cute little puppy turned into an adolescent ready to try to become boss of the house and 
test the humans to see what they would let hm get away with, all sorts of problems resulted because the people didn't know how to assert their authority as leaders of the pack in any way the dog would understand. By the time the humans would seek help, the problems had already been escalating for a long time, problems that an experienced person would have seen coming and handled at the beginning. Most dogs who end up in shelters are adolescents who are dumped for behavior problems related to their adolescence. To a dog, the human family is the dog's pack. If the owners don't know how to assert their authority as leaders of the pack, the dog will keep pushing until he takes over with disastrous results.

Some people unknowingly encourage aggression in their dogs or set up situations for others to teach the dog to become aggressive. A frequent scenario is a dog on a tie-out chain that gets teased by neighborhood kids---the same tactics helpers use to teach a dog to do bitework. The inevitable day comes when the dog gets loose, somebody gets bitten, the dog is labelled aggressive. 

Fear aggression in adolescent dogs is sometimes mistakenly encouraged by people who attempt to soothe and calm and stroke their dog when he shows fear. In the dog's mind he's getting praised for acting fearfully aggressive.

Medical issues & pain are another possible cause of a dog's aggression. I once read of a Golden Retriever who suddenly turned vicious and mauled one of his owner's small children. The dog was euthanized, upon necropsy a portion of a pencil was found jammed deep down inside the dog's ear. 

Genetics play a part in temperament but there are many other factors that also play a part & except for dogs bred purposely to be animal or human aggressive, most often other factors are to blame for inappropriate aggression.


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## GSDElsa

I'll give your post a little bump and give my guess, but I am FAR from the most educated person on this board as far as reading pedigrees.

My gut on it says that the Tierkerhook/Mink combo on the dam's sire's side (known for producing strong aggression coming in on both sides) mixed with the showlines on the dam's dam's side probably created a bit of a nerve issue...doesn't seem like that was the best combo...


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## cliffson1

Genetically, I would say this pedigree has a nice recipe for aggression. If I were analyzing this pedigree for someone without knowing the dog as I often do, I would definitely have said there was a high possibility of aggression issues.


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## carmspack

There is nothing wrong with Tiekerhook or Mink Wittfeld . 

I was sure we had covered this pedigree before or perhaps it was a response in a PM ??

It is always tricky to give critical comments on dogs that are living , still producing, kennels still in operation.
When two of those parties who are indirectly involved have more money than I will have with my measly litter or two per year then .....

This is a pedigree built for aggression risk and the problem is on the dam's side.

As soon as I clicked -- I saw it .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa

carmspack said:


> There is nothing wrong with Tiekerhook or Mink Wittfeld .
> 
> I was sure we had covered this pedigree before or perhaps it was a response in a PM ??
> 
> It is always tricky to give critical comments on dogs that are living , still producing, kennels still in operation.
> When two of those parties who are indirectly involved have more money than I will have with my measly litter or two per year then .....
> 
> This is a pedigree built for aggression risk and the problem is on the dam's side.
> 
> As soon as I clicked -- I saw it .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I didn't say there was anything wrong with mink or tiekerhook...


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## carmspack

Tiekerhook has been criticized before in a youtubey showing dogs barking at their food , resource guarding, which was not created by the owner . They don't breed dogs for pets .

As always it is in the combination.

When I see a great line being directed away from it's potential and value for all to tap in to that makes me sad.

Sometimes I guess they got lucky and didn't know what they had or how or why they had it.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

Definitely in the dam line.....that being said the DDR lines from the sire line aren't a good match for bringing balance back to dam line; even "if" you could bring back balance.


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## carmspack

right Cliff . The dog would have needed heavy wurtemburger family lines -Bernd, Marko , something to stabilize . Not something dense in faulty Canto.
Carmen


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## Emoore

I'm in Pre-K compared to Cliff and Carmen, but I know there are some nice dogs in Bailey's pedigree. I also know there is an aggressive streak half a mile wide running down the DDR lines and a breeder has to know what they're doing-- really know what they're doing-- when breeding them if they want to avoid it.


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## wolfstraum

Absolutely agree with Cliff and Carmen....saw it IMMEDIATELY opening the pedigree - and then to see the combo of show on the bottom, and even though the DDR is not known for sharp reactive type aggression, it is there and cannot balance the reactivity from the bottom - 

No amount of socializing or training will alter the genetic make up of ANY dog, just make him possibly easier to handle. A sound balanced pup does NOT NEED socialization - it is icing on the cake....an unsound dog needs the structure of the socialization process to instill the parameters for acceptable behavior and interaction.


Lee


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## Emoore

Emoore said:


> I'm in Pre-K compared to Cliff and Carmen, but I know there are some nice dogs in Bailey's pedigree. I also know there is an aggressive streak half a mile wide running down the DDR lines and a breeder has to know what they're doing-- really know what they're doing-- when breeding them if they want to avoid it.


I stand corrected in a PM.  The DDR lines aren't really the issue in his pedigree. So, uh. . . look elsewhere.  I LOVE this board!


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## carmspack

EXACTLY --- Wolfstraum -- hit the nail on the head . The most important statement I have seen on the forum since I joined . 

She said A sound balanced pup does NOT NEED socialization .

yes yes yes. Even in the von Stephanitz book there are accounts of dogs going up into the hills or working on farms , never seeing another person beside the shepherd - yet they are totally able to work with calm focus , not shy or spook or get distracted by novelty , not become aggressive out of fear .

I have personal experience .
I had been physically unable to do much of anything other than very basic care , thanks to having been rear ended and having severe back spasms . When I finally got myself sorted out I had a two 9 month olds that had never been on leash . Got the collar on , clipped the leash, dog bucks around a bit . I stand for a moment then start moving to where I want to go . Dog moves along with me , a little erratic , a little forward a little behind . Within two properties width , 700 feet this dog was in position , watching me . I could do turns left and right . I could have him sit . Then the school buses and the commuters were passing us . Never ever any problem , no hackling , no hesitation. 

Eik Clausberg may have been an excellent choice bringing some very valuable old herding genetics to the picture to what had already been established through Gundi Fernheim. Had the pedigree been Eik to Gundi I would have been interested . 

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Liesje

No comment on the ped, but I found it odd someone called "GSDGenes" would not want to account for the genetics with regard to aggression. I agree with the others, a sound pup is a sound pup whether it gets all the socialization in the world or is a kennel dog until it is 2 years old. A friend of mine bought a dog over 1 year old from (in my opinion) a knowledgeable breeder. The dog was totally green, NO training or socialization, just took it out to test drives and such, the dog lived in a kennel all it's life and very easily and quickly transitioned to being her house dog and companion living with other dogs as well as a very good working dog and being safe in all sorts of environments (also dogs rally classes, dock diving, etc). I do lots of socialization with my dogs but it's mainly because I can, and not because I believe I have to in order to develop a sound dog, but so that I can test the puppy out against what I believe it will show me based on the pedigree and the experiences of the breeder(s). Good or bad I have yet to be surprised.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> This is a pedigree built for aggression risk and the problem is on the dam's side.


I am not at all knowledgable about bloodlines, and I even I looked at that pedigree and thought "Why were they mixing DDR and showlines with Mink and Tiekerhook dogs?"

Carmen, could you clarify--for those of us who are not as knowledgable--specifically where this pedigree went wrong? It seems to me like the breeder was breeding titles and not dogs.


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## Vandal

I've looked at plenty of pedigrees that others look at and immediately need smelling salts. The dogs did not display any of the "predicted" behaviors. Sure, genetics cause all kinds of issues, not arguing that point, but in my experience, and I have LOTS of that , especially with normal , everyday, dog owners.....the people can take those genetics and make a HUGE mess.
The advise on this board alone is enough to make anyone who knows what they are doing want to scream and I am not talking about the pedigree comments. I am talking about the training advice. Most people simply do not know how to handle a GSD, I am pretty sure most commenting here just might agree with that. 

I could show you pedigrees that you all would agree is "balanced", full of great dogs known for nerves etc., and in the next breath tell you about the behaviors of that dog that is DIRECTLY related to their handling. 

What's my point? It is NEVER just a case of one or the other. I have seen dogs completely change in ONE session when their handler got a grip. I would say over 98% of the people who come to me for help with their aggressive dogs have created a majority of the dog's behavior by "accident". Most of the time, it is a case of getting the people under control, much more than the dog. YES, many of the dogs have nerve issues in varying degrees, but the handling makes things ten times worse than it has to be. 

I say this not to argue with the pedigree comments but to urge people to look at THEMSELVES, not just the dog.


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## cliffson1

As I said on another thread...two primary reasons for aggression that I see are nerve issues and ineffective ownership. Can be one or the other or a combination of both....but this is what I see the most.


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## bocron

carmspack said:


> This is a pedigree built for aggression risk and the problem is on the dam's side.
> 
> As soon as I clicked -- I saw it .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



Not trying to argue here, just more learning.

I don't really know these lines in that they aren't what we have seen in the past. Now, recently in our club we have 2 females from Fernheim, one of whose pedigree is very similar to the OPs pedigree posted, but a generation back. The other girl is an aunt or cousin to the first but I've never actually seen her pedigree. I never even knew what bloodlines the 2 dogs where until the other day when we happened to look up the website for some reason.
So, as an aside, both of these girls in our club are the mellowest, compliant, most easy going girls ever. As a matter of fact, as we speak, the 2 of them are here for daycare for the day and get along famously with the other dogs and all the people that come in. The older of the 2 girls (who turned 7 the other day) is a bit vocal, but mostly when playing with her sister, never with other dogs or people. The younger of the 2 has taken us a year to get barking on the Schutzhund field and is one of those dogs whose expression makes your heart melt. The owner is a horse person, but has very good dog skills but not a pro by any means. She just raised them as her family pets and got into Schutzhund to have something to do when she had to scale back the horse hobby. 
I will text her to see if she knows the names of the parents off hand and will post the pedigrees just for interest and comparison if anyone cares to comment. It will be interesting to see what the opinions are.
Annette


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## bocron

Ok here's the pedigree for the older female, Java. She is the one who is the talker, but overall very mellow.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=477284&p=5-generation-pedigree
So would love to know where the main difference is regarding potential for aggression.


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## wolfstraum

hmmm - Look at it this way - a pedigree is a device to see possibilities....it is sort of like a blue print of what you hope to get when you plan a litter, knowing how (hopefully!!) each dog you pair expresses it's pedigree.....However, it is not written in stone - but rather kalidiscope of possiblities depending how the genes fall out! It not an absolute specific blueprint. Given varying temperaments or characteristics even in the same litter - heck in PEOPLE! - the genes do not line up exactly the same way in each and every littermate. What happens is that over time, "certain dogs" become known for producing specific traits, they become prepotent for X Y or Z, and as generations come forward, those very prepotent traits come forward...good or bad! Not in every dog for sure carrying the "Certain Dog" will exhibit that trait of course! I have met some dogs who I like very much who carry Crok for example - does not mean I want to breed to them! They do not exhibit any aggression problems, but it does not mean that it cannot surface in the next generation. 

Think of it like making a pound cake with a cup of gold raisins - throw in 3 cranberries.....slice it up - only a few pieces will have a cranberry!!!

Lee


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## carmspack

everything comes down to combinations. The pedigree of Java is different in what you would expect to get as raw material to deal with . A better chance for sounder dogs.

Go to the original thread on this dog before a pedigree was offered and I think you will see that I said that the pedigree analysis doesn't have much value now , because the dog has been bought , the dog is not being bred, and you have to deal with what you have right there in front of you. The dog needs to be dealt with as he is .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...essive-gsd-4-years-old-pedigree-posted-3.html

so Vandal and I agree . The pedigree is a done deal . You can't change it. You have to deal with what you have . At this point it is management. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Vandal

I didn't really post that to agree or disagree with anyone. Just saying to the OP to consider themselves and forget about the darn papers. 

However, I will say that the pedigree talk has a way of taking on a life of it's own, like that link you just provided Carmen. Doesn't have much to do with the situation, as a few people, (yes including you), have said there. However, people are saying the OP needs to know about the pedigree so they can determine how far they will get. What a bunch of boloney. Sorry, that just almost makes me angry. It will be a cold day in **** when I ask for a pedigree before I train a dog. You work with the dog not the papers.

What that dog needs is some "real" obedience training and MUCH better management , not to mention a cool, confident handler that will insist the dog obeys when he is told to. No cookies, a correction that will ensure compliance. The handler has to convey to the dog that SHE is in charge and doesn't need the dog's help.. No nervous, timid handling, just calm, matter of fact and consistent.

Also, a dog who barks at people or dogs from behind the fence of their yard does not really concern me. The other situation in the Petco was one mistake after the other, period. Some of these things are pretty easy fixes if you can get the PEOPLE to be consistent, smart and present themselves to their dogs in the right way. Now the poster says she has lost confidence. BIG problem.

People turn things into self fulfilling prophecies when others are warning them of the dangers. The "Oh I can see the aggression in that pedigree" talk is the LAST thing they should be listening to. Seeing a trainer is a good idea but hopefully, it is a trainer who understands that this problem is MUCH more about the person than the dog...because it is. 

BTW, most dogs are protective of their home, especially behind a fence. That is not a problem with the pedigree, that is a dog doing his job.


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## cliffson1

I went back to what the Poster asked in the opening post and I responded to what they asked. Nothing more nothing less.... I could care what others think ought to be done...I am more concerned in being helpful if I can, to the request of what is asked. Don't need to agree with anybody on this forum, nor care who agrees with me....doesn't change my experiences in dogs. Person asked to analyze the pedigree to see if there are some enlightenment, wrote what I saw....if it angers people....it on them. I try to be helpful, if I can....I will not curtail responding to things I am knowledgable about because others see it another way....good for them....but my response is to the OP regardless of who isn't pleased.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think also some of the responses you see asking for that information - I will say mine - when you volunteer in rescue, you don't get dogs from known backgrounds most of the time - rarely with a pedigree and even more "interesting" from a behavioral point of view, no idea what the dog knows, doesn't know, how they've been trained, what you are getting beyond the dog in front of you and maybe a shelter eval. 

So to have this wealth of information - the parents, grandparents, who and how and what - as a piece of the picture: owner, dog, environment, genetics, training, and not use it to help the dog be successful seems like a missed opportunity. 

Because regardless, the OP needs to see a real live person, who hopefully won't create more problems than they solve in working with the dog.


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## Vandal

No one suggested you should not help Cliff and that's all I have to say about that.

As for the other comment. There is no value, other than trivia, in knowing the pedigree at this point. It's about the dog, who, BTW, doesn't sound like a bad one, just a poorly managed one. Many dogs just need their owners to learn some dog handling skills and the problem is solved. The rest is just a distraction. 

There are only so many behaviors you will see in dogs, no matter the pedigree. Makes no difference if Fero or Crok or anyone else is in there ten times, the dog is who he is and you have to deal with that. I have never asked for a pedigree so I would know how to train the dog. That to me, is ridiculous.


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## cliffson1

@ JeanKBBMMMAAN....I agree that additional live help would be very beneficial to the OP. If I'm not mistaken this started over in the aggression area under training. I would think that would be ideal place for responding to interactive help. Not that the information can't come from this thread because often threads or topics go awry. But the last time I checked, this is the bloodlines and pedigrees area....DUH! So to respond appropriately to what is asked and then hear a form of chastisement for answering someones question is mindblowing. If someone wants to chime in with another perspective for the OP, its their perogative....but this is still the bloodlines and pedigree area. And that is it for me also!


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## onyx'girl

In response to Annes latest post:

I bet you can see the heart of the dog within 5 minutes of working with it....because you are experienced and knowledgable.
The trainer I work with says the same thing, though pedigree matters when he is purchasing a dog to work. The breeder that he is buying from isn't his focus, but what the pups are made of.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Other commenter :greet: here! I am not thinking that was what anyone was asking for?


> I have never asked for a pedigree so I would know how to train the dog. That to me, is ridiculous.


 Just some input for someone - looking at the big picture to try to do what is best for the dog. And I think there was some very interesting and solid input if the OP ever comes back - in terms of saying, oh, this is what I need to do with this dog for real. 

Bad or poor matches happen with people and their dogs. But they can be overcome with good training and education. How bad the match is impacted by how forgiving the dog can be to bad training. As you know, some dogs you can make all sorts of mistakes with, and "get away" with it. Some others you need to be on your toes all the time. I don't think there's anything wrong with telling someone this dog is a great opportunity for you to learn to be a better dog handler.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

cliffson1 said:


> @ JeanKBBMMMAAN....I agree that additional live help would be very beneficial to the OP. If I'm not mistaken this started over in the aggression area under training. I would think that would be ideal place for responding to interactive help. Not that the information can't come from this thread because often threads or topics go awry. But the last time I checked, this is the bloodlines and pedigrees area....DUH! So to respond appropriately to what is asked and then hear a form of chastisement for answering someones question is mindblowing. If someone wants to chime in with another perspective for the OP, its their perogative....but this is still the bloodlines and pedigree area. And that is it for me also!


Thanks, yeah - it's a mishmash of a couple of threads! This is _often_ an interesting forum for people to read and learn about the lines of dogs.


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## Vandal

I am sorry you don't want to hear me disagree with the idea of discussing a pedigree at this point Cliff. You seem to have taken this WAY too personal. If Jean wants to delete my posts, go right ahead. I am OK with that. 

The point is this. People handling GSDs need to be confident and unafraid. My remarks about the aggression in the pedigree comments is that it can have an impact on what that handler might be thinking about their dog and I have seen that have a rather significant impact on how they handle their dog. Anything that affects the handler's confidence, I view as a problem. This is MY OPINION and since this is a forum, I too, am allowed to post one.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Vandal said:


> The point is this. People handling GSDs need to be confident and unafraid. My remarks about the aggression in the pedigree comments is that it can have an impact on what that handler might be thinking about their dog and I have seen that have a rather significant impact on how they handle their dog. Anything that affects the handler's confidence, I view as a problem.


That is completely true and I know from experience - confidence in handling one kind of problem happily (people aggression), but not so much with another! (strange dog issues) Makes a huge difference to my dog.


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## carmspack

but there are dogs that are very level headed and easy to handle , have a desire to be connected to the handler , willingly. There are lots of groups of people handling a dog that are not dog handlers. Assistance dogs. Guide dogs. How do you have a breeding program that reliably produces a dog suitable for those callings . You know the pedigree, you track the results - ala Erich Renner and his Bodo Lierberg.
You know when you load a pedigree with Yoschy's and Sagus' and Greifs , and Feros all in one what are the chances that you are going to have some wild aggression .
As the end user, the dept, or the trainer or the institute the pedigree does not matter . You test and evaluate the dog immediately in front of you . Some make the grade , some are dismissed. That is at a testable age . Even there a pedigree may have alerted you to a line that is particularly slow to get it together and mature , as Biehler said in a GSD Quarterly magazine article . When the dog is too young to evaluate you have to project what the potentials are from the pedigree.
People that buy GSD don't want to become boot camp trainers . They want to enjoy a sane , socialable , healthy animal.
I saw instability in the pedigree, which may or may not be over come by training . Maybe not .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Vandal

> I saw instability in the pedigree, which may or may not be over come by training . Maybe not .


Right, you all saw what you saw in the pedigree but you won't know what can be done until you work with the dog. What's the disagreement?
Makes NO difference what the pedigree is. A point you made already Carmen. Not sure where the "Boot camp" idea came from. People who own GSDs should have a level of competence and understand basic training of dogs. Most of all, they should understand how their behavior can trigger behaviors in their dog.


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> The point is this. People handling GSDs need to be confident and unafraid. My remarks about the aggression in the pedigree comments is that it can have an impact on what that handler might be thinking about their dog and I have seen that have a rather significant impact on how they handle their dog.


I see what you're saying. Years ago they did a study on school children. They took a group of average kids, neither outstanding students nor troublemakers. They told the teachers that certain children were troublemakers (even though they weren't) and to watch out for them. The teachers were also told that certain students were extremely bright and excellent students (even though they weren't).

These kids were placed in the same classroom and the lesson plan was the same for all of them.

Sure enough, as the school year progressed, the kids that were pegged as "troublemakers" by the teacher started doing poorly in school, their grades went down, their attitudes became negative; at the same time, the kids that were pegged as "bright" started doing better, their grades went up, and they became more confident.

Each time the study was repeated, they got the same result. 

All of this was due to the attitude of the teacher, after having been given information (albeit false) about what to expect from the children before even meeting them. They had already made up their minds how the children were going to act, and treated them differently because of it. It was like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I believe this study was done in the 50's or 60's. Of course, such an experiment cannot be done in this day and age, because it is completely unethical.


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## gagsd

Study done at vet clinics..... Some dogs with NO bite history had "Will Bite" stickers put in their files.
These dogs who had caused no problems in the past, suddenly became difficult to handle. The sticker completely changed the way the vets and techs handled the dogs, causing the dogs to react quite badly.


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## lemans

I posted a pedigree a while ago, and the majority of the replies I got, strongly cautioned me that according to the pedigree, he will have primarily too much aggression, low thresholds, weak nerves, handler aggression etc. 

The dog at the time was around 7 months old, but because of the usual suspects, Crok, Mink, Karlo, Asko, and others, most people were convinced in their ability to foresee the future.

Ultimately I chose to trust the individual that raised the dog, and has hands on knowledge of both parents. This person btw is very well known for his honest representation of the dogs he sells.

Well the dog is now a little over one year old, and he is easily the best dog I have been blessed with. ZERO issues across the board. Awesome temperament, confident, bulletproof nerves, full calm grips, super nose etc. Not bad for a dog that was raised in a kennel and NEVER socialized till I got him. 

So in closing just because the potential is there for the good or the bad, it doesn't mean that you will get either for sure.

I think Cliff said it best when he mentioned that in every litter not all pups will exhibit the traits that you expect, some will and some wont.

Thread and pedigree below.
Pedigree:









Thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/154172-qpinion-pedigree.html


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## GSDElsa

Well, I for one don't think I ever even saw the original thread...merely that this poster had a question on their pedigree.

I answered strictly because I like to see how I am progressing in my ability to try and interpret what a pedigree contains.

Others answered becasue that was the question at hand--to tell the OP where the aggression might be coming from. 

I learned a lot, so I'm glad comments were made. Yes, everything Anne said is true...but it's also a good learning experience for everyone, IMO.


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## cliffson1

NO, MY point is the OP asked about pedigrees and bloodlines, and was given some good information from several sources on that subject. To have someone question the need or validity of even answering her question is the height of insolence. Its not about me taking it personal, nothing about the thread was personal UNTIL references were made to responses being baloney and making one angry. 
You could have pm'ed the OP the aspects dealing with handling or training, or you could have inserted it into the thread without running roughshod over responses that were sought by the OP.
That is MY point, it has nothing to do with being personal, or the idea of disagreeing with discussing a pedigree, but rather respecting the OP's right to have what they asked answered.
Let's move on, if you don't mind.


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## Samba

gagsd said:


> Study done at vet clinics..... Some dogs with NO bite history had "Will Bite" stickers put in their files.
> These dogs who had caused no problems in the past, suddenly became difficult to handle. The sticker completely changed the way the vets and techs handled the dogs, causing the dogs to react quite badly.


Interesting. I have a dog who has no bite history, but was labelled "muzzle only" at the vet office. The vet just never coud make his way with her, she never did try to bite him but he was sure she would. The next vet who bought the practice walks in the room. He gets down on the floor and she isup in his lap for scritches and ruffles. I asked him if he did not read the "muzzle only" bit on the chart. He said, " oh, I never look at that part on there". They have been great buds for years. German Shepherds often notice how people and their owners act. It is something many of them do very well.


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## Vandal

> NO, MY point is the OP asked about pedigrees and bloodlines, and was given some good information from several sources on that subject. To have someone question the need or validity of even answering her question is the height of insolence. Its not about me taking it personal, nothing about the thread was personal UNTIL references were made to responses being baloney and making one angry.


My comment about baloney was about what was said by someone else in the OTHER thread that Carmen made me aware of. Try reading more carefully Cliff. Nothing rude or insolent about anything I said. I simply disagree that the pedigree matters for this person. I also understand they asked and I gave my opinion about them asking. There is the end of the story.
If you are someone who thinks everyone is talking about YOU and what you say Cliff, I guess you will be upset everytime you read this board. Put me on ignore, then you won't have to wonder if I am talking about you.


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## carmspack

well here is something to consider . Suppose the OP had a dog before , or has another dog concurrent to the problem dog , or will be getting a dog in the future. If she and her management and training skills are basically the same , perhaps improving with experience , then the dog , and whatever that dog came in to the world with INSCRIBED onto its little being is the variable.. And the difference is evident in the pedigree and the thresholds or tolerances that dog has. The OP is the constant and the dogs are the variable You know there are dogs with little motivation , soft dogs that go into a puddle or run to avoid work, and pugnacious dogs , and stubborn dogs that need more input and authority and dogs that are hyper active, have problems capping drive and so on and so on. 
In my area people recognize "my" dogs. They have a certain stamp on them according to how I direct my breeding program. The stamp is a recognizable look and an expected stable temperament. I have heard people refer to them as a "Carmen" dog . There are kennels in the area that also have a certain type . I get the phone calls being the shepherd person in the area , vet referal or someone who encountered one of my dogs on a walk or hike and got my contact information in the ensuing discussion. I refer them to local training clubs or to Mike Clay for class or private instruction , vets for health checks etc. Or I know of them through a trainer or training club -- no pedigree ever looked at , till I ask out of curiousity . Half the time the people can't even remember the sire and dam name . But when we look at the pedigree , after the training , there it is , there is the verification of the common denominator on the pedigree.
Could be a kennel and its agenda in producing a certain type , or being poor or haphazard altogether , or it could be a specific sire or dam which tends to throw a feature repeatedly. 
since I have been accused at sitting at the something something of von Stephanitz , and having gone over the book for the umpteenth time , doing recent studies for a specific line of questioning I saw that he could look at a dog and depending on where it bit, mid rib cage (preferred) or mid hind leg, whether it drove and circled , what the grip was , he could tell the region and use of the dog. 
Pedigree matters , otherwise what is the point in having a public registry at all , or a purebred.
Part of that pedigree information is that it is a GSD , which brings with it breed specific behavior . It should have aggression . Now if the OP said I have a dog and it has aggression problems --- and later you find out it is a golden retriever then does that not tell you something is wrong with the dog . 
The OP has to deal with the dog she has right now. Some is management and some is the dogs temperament , which in this animal may be seated in the combination of quick aggressive dogs and dogs lacking nerve .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Vandal

> Some is management and some is the dogs temperament


Of course but the fact remains, this is the dog she has now. Again, I fail to see how the pedigree is going to help her problem. The people who handle and manage the dog MATTER. If she is the constant and does nothing to learn or improve her training and handling skills, she will most likely have a problem with the next dogs as well, no matter how much pedigree analysis she reads. 
The people matter a great deal, hence the saying: "80% of the people who own a German Shepherd Dog shouldn't". The OP stated she is going to training with her dog. Hopefully, she has a good trainer who can advise her about what I am trying to say here. If she does, she will see a difference in her dog. Like I already said, what she described does not sound too difficult to work with and you said the same, Carmen. 

I understand all about genetics but I understand the other half just as well. The people who handle the dogs matter. I see, (better than most trainers), the disturbances people can cause with their dogs in real life, in SchH training , in everything . People who don't understand the impact the handlers can have on their dogs, don't understand dogs.

Oh and about Max there being able to tell what dog came from where. Was he someone who read dogs well? Who could relate to animals and understood them? I'd say chances were good he was. It matters.


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## carmspack

Vandal , I've asked where have people with common sense gone to. We don't have the same sense about animals anymore (as a whole) . I hope she does find a good trainer -- and that is another topic guaranteed to be active.
I've seen so many poor decoys and poor trainers.
When I moved into this neighbourhood some 25 years ago I went around to all the little local trainers, training clubs to sit in on group lessons, schutzhund meets etc. Reason? Because I needed to know what the doggy network was, who to recommend my pup and dog owners to for training and who to give wide berth.
Wonders never cease to amaze.
Can you believe there was one instructor who , honestly, said the way to teach a recall was with a wiener (hot dog) (stop laughing!) stuffed down his pants. He meant it . Even did a demonstration . 
Wow -- . He used to get brisk business, was a bit of a character in the area. He was a man with advanced years so has long since passed on.
I mentioned this to one of the vets who had his brochures at the front counter , which is how I found the class in the first place. The vet stood there and just blinked at me , wondering what my problem was . This was the clinic the closest to me. Quickly found another vet who I have to this day , and almost never see with the exception of x ray 's time.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## gsdraven

gagsd said:


> Study done at vet clinics..... Some dogs with NO bite history had "Will Bite" stickers put in their files.
> These dogs who had caused no problems in the past, suddenly became difficult to handle. The sticker completely changed the way the vets and techs handled the dogs, causing the dogs to react quite badly.


Interesting. I know that when I am presented with a dog that has biten or may bite or may be pushy then I know I need to step up my confidence and assertiveness.

It's something the my mentor in rescue taught me from day 1 when evaluating dogs in the shelter... be the leader from the second you approach the kennel.


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## cliffson1

Anne, no need to put you on ignore, because I don't read your posts to learn things about dog training and behavoir. Most of what you write I have encountered in the past and agree with. This is witnessed by my reference to saying the same thing you said, as being the source of most aggression, in an earlier thread.
As for my reading and comprehension skills, or whether or not I think everyone is coming at me....well I'll let the majority of the board determine that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the right to express their opinion, and I agree with you on that. 
I think we both bring good things to this forum, I know you know about pedigrees but as you state your priority is in training and behavoir. I also know about training and behavoir, but choose to mainly share my knowledge on bloodlines and pedigrees. There is room for both of us on this forum and should be. I'm certainly not infallible or right all the time, and I don't view anyone on this board as that either. We have opinions , we express them, and over time; the people realize what reconciles with what they see on the subject and what doesn't. 
Everything is fine with me at this point.


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## Debbieg

Anne, Cliff, Carmen Chris and others. You all bring such value to this forum. Thank you for taking the time.

I definitely agree that it is both temperament and handling and that we have to deal with the dog in front of us, not use the pedigree as an excuse. ( not saying anyone is doing that) 
A few years ago I was probably in the 80% that should not have a GSD because I am a bit of a pushover by nature. When I got my first GSD it seemed like temperament problems were rare. GSD’s had sensible aggression, were protective when needed. 
I only started learning about bloodlines after I got Benny and found this forum. A few people told me based on his lines that he would likely be reactive, have low threshold and would probably want to eat the sheep in herding. The positive only classes we took until getting kicked out told me he was aggressive and needed to be always kept under threshold.
Thankfully I found a good trainer who just looked at Benny and at me. She has taught me to be very firm, with the dog, use aversives as needed and Benny has really turned out much better than was predicted by the pedigree and positive trainers. He is still a bit fear reactive with men, but I have learned to anticipate this and prevent issues. I am able to take him to hospitals, around children, off leash hikes. He did very good on his herding aptitude test. 

Were those who read is pedigree wrong? No, but by finding help to deal with the dog in front of me we have been able to enhance the strengths and minimize the weaknesses. Benny had brought me out of my comfort zone and made me learn to be “she who must be obeyed” In a way he trained me to train him. I no longer thin I am in the 80% who should not own a GSD. I am however in the % that should not won a Borzoi!:laugh: My husbands dog independence drives me nuts. I swear he rolls his eyes at me and flips me off.
I am researching bloodlines now in the hopes of getting the building blocks for my new pup because I am hoping for that genetic obedience I once had and I also want to support breeders who aim for that.


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## codmaster

Same thing here with positive only training - some dogs are just not suited for it.

The same trainer who booted us out of classes just recently told us how great that our dog is doing now and invited us back to group classes. (after a couple of sessions with a more traiditional trainer with more tools in his tool box for sometimes DA dogs). 

Sometimes I think that you just have to convince some dogs that his actions have consequences!


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## pets4life

sorry wrong post


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## pets4life

i am not sure if i am right or wrong but any of our dogs with strong aggression that have very good stability in the wrong owners hand in the wrong situation wrong envroment wrong treatment wrong training neglect no exercise who knows what else can and probably will turn aggressive i mean these are just animals in the end how much can we expect from them?

so a dog that was suppose to have very stable may not if it is given a really crappy situation imagine they were tied up every day and not exercised?


so many aggressive dogs probably not meant to be that way the owners created it from neglect ? Just something i thought of not sure if it is right or wrong. But my gsd is such a thinking animal it wants direction and things to do and exercise everyday if it didnt have this i dont know what kind of dog it would be.


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## carmspack

prime example , this very morning, on how people do not know how to be around a dog . The alarming thing is that this is at the vet's office. I had booked an appt. to get one of my males done for OFA hips and elbows . 
He walks in the vet greets him , one of the vet techs makes friendly , we walk together into the back room to get his measurements and get the plates ready. I always assist in the x ray as I do it without sedation. This vet is so good at positioning I wish I could clone him . While he is at the machine twisting knobs and pulling out plates and writing the information on the tag , another vet tech lady decides to stand facing the dog . The other vet tech is yaking away and I am now looking at my dog who is just sitting there , but with an unbroken gaze. What you looking at -- turn and see the eye lock. I tell her , time to break the eye contact and swing in front of my dog, my back to her. If this had not been a totally solid dog she may have provoked a reaction , defensive reaction . In her profession she should know better.
Took the dog for a jog around the block while waiting for the x rays to develop. Come back in , almost ready , room now full of customers with kitties in carriers . Lively talk , one man is a fireman where we take pups for visits. I swear every time that vet tech stuck her head into the waiting room to call in the next customer she made a point of glaring at me -- I think she was thinking "B" . 

good news is I think this dog Carmspack JORD , who was 4 years old in June , will go OFA excellent .
He is represented by his brother's pedigree (Gore) Carmspack Gore - German Shepherd Dog

I asked if the vet has digital and the front desk said they tried to get him to go digital but he has not . Too bad . I would have loved to have shared the x ray with you. 
Elbows beautiful.


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDLove

Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in posting, I have been working.

Thank you all for your post regarding Bailey's pedigree. I am a experienced GSD owner. My past two GSD's have been from this breeder. I think Bailey's aggression problem is in part due to his seizures and other part due to the fact he turned out to be a higher drive DDR GSD than I knew and probably should have gone to a working home instead of a companion dog home. Bailey was socialized with people and other dogs, and attended several training classes, and even went away to a GSD Sch trainer for 8 days.

I have a trainer I am starting with on Monday, 09/12 to teach me how to work with Bailey, and lean to read the singles he is giving off.

I just want to make sure that I say the breeder has been great with advice, and direction. Pups from her past litters have been police dogs, SAR, therapy dogs, and good companion dogs. I have met several of the those dogs. I am not an expert on pedigrees but I won't hesitate to get another pup from her.

Thank you all again for your input, I will be posting Bailey updates in the Aggression section as the 8 weeks of training progresses.

Mary


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## Andaka

> I think Bailey's problem is in part due to his seizures.


This could very well be his problem. A brain that seizures is not functioning properly.


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## pets4life

camshack i saw the samething happen the otherday with a rottie this man kept staring it down and trigger an aggresive response the rottie is a very passive dog to everything even stray cats 


people have tried it with my dog but i stop them before they can one man tried to kiss my dog on the lips while looming over staring her in the eye and holding a broom lol


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## bocron

gagsd said:


> Study done at vet clinics..... Some dogs with NO bite history had "Will Bite" stickers put in their files.
> These dogs who had caused no problems in the past, suddenly became difficult to handle. The sticker completely changed the way the vets and techs handled the dogs, causing the dogs to react quite badly.



Wow Mary, this sounds fascinating and extremely educational. Do you have a link to the study or any other info regarding the study? We are currently doing some talks with local vets regarding info along these lines and would love to have a bit more info to help us in our quest. 

Annette


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## codmaster

That sounds entirely logical - if you think a dog is likely to be aggressive, most people will act differently around it - kind of wary usually. How many dogs do you know who wouldn't react differently than to that.

I know my dog certainly will - almost like he is thinking "Why is this person acting kind of weird? What do they have up their sleeve? I better keep an eye on them!". 

Kind of a self fufilling prophecey(SP?).


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## gagsd

It was in JAVMA or Veterinary Technician magazine around 2005 I think.


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## Freestep

codmaster said:


> That sounds entirely logical - if you think a dog is likely to be aggressive, most people will act differently around it - kind of wary usually. How many dogs do you know who wouldn't react differently than to that.
> 
> I know my dog certainly will - almost like he is thinking "Why is this person acting kind of weird? What do they have up their sleeve? I better keep an eye on them!".
> 
> Kind of a self fufilling prophecey(SP?).


Yes. My dog Storm used to have a sixth sense for spotting people afraid of dogs. She was always either friendly or neutral to strangers--unless the person had a dog phobia. Then she'd make a concerted effort to appear as frightening as possible; lunging, growling, barking, and carrying on like a horrible beast. I don't know what it was that she could sense, but she could spot a dog-phobic person half a block away and would go out of her way to scare them. Fortunately, she never bit anyone but it sure was embarrassing for me.

So, yeah--what a great way for a dog-phobic person to have a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## Vandal

Dogs do not view frightened people as that, they view their behavior and body language as threatening. Some will have a bigger reaction to people like that then others. 
If you have ever seen two dogs getting ready to fight, you will see they are very tense, their bodies are stiff, they move around each other slowly and then the fight is on. Next time you have a chance, watch the body language of someone who is afraid of dogs. It is not a lot different. I use that body language when I work dogs as the helper in protection, especially if I want to bring out aggression in the dogs. Works EVERY time.

Also, since this is the bloodlines area and we do need to stay on topic.....some bloodlines will mature out of some of these behaviors. That is, if they are handled properly and that behavior is not constantly re-enforced by an inept handler. GSDs are supposed to be protective and there are bloodlines that produce more of a protective instinct than others. Maturity, proper direction and handling and also training make big differences in the dogs. When they know what their handler wants from them, ( otherwise known as obedience), it is simply easier for them to behave "appropriately". But huge numbers of people are not capable of communicating what they want to their dog. That's the sad reality .


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## Jack's Dad

Vandal said:


> But huge numbers of people are not capable of communicating what they want to their dog. That's the sad reality .


 I think that what you said is true, but why?
.

When I grew up it seemed to be somewhat natural to communicate with dogs. Maybe because there were not a lot of theories on how to raise and train. Where I came from most people never heard of or couldn't afford obedience classes. The dogs that survived cars, distemper etc... seemed mostly well behaved of course so were children (well behaved) for the most part. Why are psople not capable of communicating and why are there so many goofy dogs, GSD and others?.
I think something is different but am not sure what.
I am not implying that things were so great for dogs then. A lot of them roamed and were injured or killed and dog diseases have been greatly reduced since then. As children though we didn't fear strange dogs.
Then again maybe I'm just getting senile and don't remember accurately.


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## onyx'girl

> Dogs do not view frightened people as that, they view their behavior and body language as threatening.


Dogs can scent the pheromones we send out, though....that is a given. No matter how hard someone tries to act confident, the dog can scent your emotional state. Yet in vet clinics they are probably so overwhelmed with scent, that it may be masked.
k-back on topic


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## Debbieg

Vandal said:


> Dogs do not view frightened people as that, they view their behavior and body language as threatening. .



Yes! Benny feels most threatened and will react aggressively to people who approach him in a fearful or cautious manner. This of course makes them more afraid.....


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## Saxtonhill

bocron said:


> Ok here's the pedigree for the older female, Java. She is the one who is the talker, but overall very mellow.
> 5 gen. pedigree for Java M von Fernheim - German Shepherd Dog
> So would love to know where the main difference is regarding potential for aggression.


 
I have a litter sister to Java. She is a high-energy agility dog, but luckilly has an off switch---making her a good house dog. We can take her anywhere. She is excellent with people and children and is not a liability in public. But I must stress, as more knowledgeable members of this forum have repeatedly pointed out, that a working-bred dog needs regular exercise and working activities...I cannot imagine my girl in a non-working situation where people were not prepared/or did not want to deal with the working dog energy level. Her breeder would never have placed her in a non-working home. 

PS. My girl is a "talker" also


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## Rexy

Vandal said:


> Dogs do not view frightened people as that, they view their behavior and body language as threatening. Some will have a bigger reaction to people like that then others.
> If you have ever seen two dogs getting ready to fight, you will see they are very tense, their bodies are stiff, they move around each other slowly and then the fight is on. Next time you have a chance, watch the body language of someone who is afraid of dogs. It is not a lot different. I use that body language when I work dogs as the helper in protection, especially if I want to bring out aggression in the dogs. Works EVERY time.
> 
> Also, since this is the bloodlines area and we do need to stay on topic.....some bloodlines will mature out of some of these behaviors. That is, if they are handled properly and that behavior is not constantly re-enforced by an inept handler. GSDs are supposed to be protective and there are bloodlines that produce more of a protective instinct than others. Maturity, proper direction and handling and also training make big differences in the dogs. When they know what their handler wants from them, ( otherwise known as obedience), it is simply easier for them to behave "appropriately". But huge numbers of people are not capable of communicating what they want to their dog. That's the sad reality .


Perhaps you should handle a good GSD of solid nerve and sound temperament then repsond to the post. I agree with what you have been saying in this thread in reference to dogs with nerve issues, you are tellings us how to train and handle faulty dogs which is a genetic problem. A good GSD doesn't care, it doesn't need to react towards anything in a passive environment unprovoked, it doesn't need special handling other than teaching a loose leash walk and the one's that do need the handling you describe I would be looking at the pedigree to make sure next time, I didn't get the same faults in the breeding. Good GSD's can be trained in protection, poor GSD's who protect without training are fear biters.


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## Catu

opcorn:


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## codmaster

Rexy said:


> Perhaps you should handle a good GSD of solid nerve and sound temperament then repsond to the post. I agree with what you have been saying in this thread in reference to dogs with nerve issues, you are tellings us how to train and handle faulty dogs which is a genetic problem. A good GSD doesn't care, it doesn't need to react towards anything in a passive environment unprovoked, it doesn't need special handling other than teaching a loose leash walk and the one's that do need the handling you describe I would be looking at the pedigree to make sure next time, I didn't get the same faults in the breeding. Good GSD's can be trained in protection,* poor GSD's who protect without training are fear biters.*




If you are talking about "Poor" GSD's as having poor nerve, then you are of course correct, BUT your statement is self defining. 

*Are* you saying that ALL GSD's who protect without special protection training are FEAR BITERS? (That is what it sure sounds like,BTW!)

If that is what you are implying, then I hope that one day you find a good GSD!

This is what the breed standard calls for! Protectiveness with discrimination!


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## Rexy

codmaster said:


> [/COLOR][/B]
> 
> If you are talking about "Poor" GSD's as having poor nerve, then you are of course correct, BUT your statement is self defining.
> 
> *Are* you saying that ALL GSD's who protect without special protection training are FEAR BITERS? (That is what it sure sounds like,BTW!)
> 
> If that is what you are implying, then I hope that one day you find a good GSD!
> 
> This is what the breed standard calls for! Protectiveness with discrimination!


If you think an untrained dog will protect you good luck. How many Schutzhund trained dogs have failed to protect without civil training? The untrained that protect are protecting themselves, fear biters is the correct term I believe yes.


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## codmaster

Rexy said:


> If you think an untrained dog will protect you good luck. How many Schutzhund trained dogs have failed to protect without civil training? The untrained that protect are protecting themselves, fear biters is the correct term I believe yes.


Schutzhund is a game to most dogs. That is why they will carry the sleeve around the training field when the decoy drops it.

But if you want to try an untrained dog - come by my house and just walk in unannounced an unwelcome one day. See if my untrained dog will go run into a corner and only bite in fear.

Or for that matter just walk in a real threatening manner toward us on the street and constitute a real threat and we can see if the dog will run away in fear (we will keep him off leash so he can have that option!).

But please let me know ahead of time, so I can have you sign the release form before you come in. (Might not be able to afterward!)

I really do hope that you can find a GSD with a good standard temperament one day so you can experience what a GSD should be. 

If you really feel that ALL untrained GSD's will not protect their people/family, then very obviously you have never had a good GSD with the proper standard temperament, so hopefully you will have that pleasure one day.



Will ALL GSD's protect their owners in view of a threat, no of course not no more than all GSD's have the proper conformation according to the GSD standard. But most properly bred GSD's will do so!


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## Samba

I am sure Vandal will get right back to us as soon as she handles some GSDs of solid nerve!:wild::crazy:
Whew boy, sometimes it is a down right good time to read the forum!

Any dog I have taken to protection training who was any good at it, didn't really need the training to be protective! Interesting how that was.


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## sparra

I do get what Rexy is saying but don't agree ALL untrained GSD who protect are fearful.
I have seen other threads on "will my GSD protect my wife and kids while I am away" and much the same thing as what Rexy has said was said. Expecting an untrained dog to protect the family in the event of an intruder is unrealistic but I am sure there are some out there that would.


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## Debbieg

Rexy said:


> Good GSD's can be trained in protection, poor GSD's who protect without training are fear biters.


Do not agree at all. Benny has not had opportunity to prove if he would protect me but I have had a GSD with good nerve, no protection training and nothing beyond obedience training. He protected me appropriately when necessary several times. He showed no fear and was able to tell a threat from a non threat

I think this is how a GSD should be


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## Uniballer

Rexy said:


> Perhaps you should handle a good GSD of solid nerve and sound temperament then repsond to the post.


Like this one, maybe?


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## sparra

Uniballer said:


> Like this one, maybe?


:thumbup:


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## Rexy

codmaster said:


> Schutzhund is a game to most dogs. That is why they will carry the sleeve around the training field when the decoy drops it.
> 
> But if you want to try an untrained dog - come by my house and just walk in unannounced an unwelcome one day. See if my untrained dog will go run into a corner and only bite in fear.
> 
> Or for that matter just walk in a real threatening manner toward us on the street and constitute a real threat and we can see if the dog will run away in fear (we will keep him off leash so he can have that option!).
> 
> But please let me know ahead of time, so I can have you sign the release form before you come in. (Might not be able to afterward!)
> 
> I really do hope that you can find a GSD with a good standard temperament one day so you can experience what a GSD should be.
> 
> If you really feel that ALL untrained GSD's will not protect their people/family, then very obviously you have never had a good GSD with the proper standard temperament, so hopefully you will have that pleasure one day.
> 
> 
> 
> Will ALL GSD's protect their owners in view of a threat, no of course not no more than all GSD's have the proper conformation according to the GSD standard. But most properly bred GSD's will do so!


Fear biters don't all run into a corner, they either fight or flee, but they fight in defence drive, defence is fear. Over sharp reactive dogs will bite people with stranger aggression because they feel stressed, sure they may protect, but they are hard to handle, unsafe around strangers, foggy headed and a general pain in the butt. A dog of hardness and good character couldn't are less about strangers unless provoked, they are not blacking out in aggression at the end of the leash wanting to kill everyone, dogs like this are crap.

A good GSD trained to fight is an extension of prey drive, they fight out of the pleasure of winning the fight not out of stress. Protection is fun for the dog, a person is just a big tug and the time you need defence drive to switch in is when the target tries to fight the dog, in a good trained dog, the attack phase is done out of confidence and pleasure not stress and fear.


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## Freestep

Rexy said:


> A dog of hardness and good character couldn't are less about strangers unless provoked


Exactly. If provoked by a genuine threat, most well-bred GSDs will protect whether trained to or not. Who cares whether he works in defense or prey at that point as long as he defuses the threat? A dog of hardness and good character will not be "ruined" by the experience.

Rexy, I take it you are a PP trainer?


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## Rexy

Freestep said:


> Exactly. If provoked by a genuine threat, most well-bred GSDs will protect whether trained to or not. Who cares whether he works in defense or prey at that point as long as he defuses the threat? A dog of hardness and good character will not be "ruined" by the experience.
> 
> Rexy, I take it you are a PP trainer?


The best PP dogs I have trained will not protect the handler as green dogs and where I say the "best" PP dogs are dogs a family can take anywhere, they are safe with people, kids, and other dogs unless commanded otherwise. You can't use defence driven over sharp dogs in PP as the side effects of this type of dog are a liability, you can't have a dog who nails a kid's friend being strangers in the back yard, you can't have a dog who will nail a stranger when they approach to ask you the time, there are plenty of dogs like this and they can serve a purpose and working role, but they are not good dogs compared with stable prey driven dogs trained to protect and fight.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> I didn't really post that to agree or disagree with anyone. Just saying to the OP to consider themselves and forget about the darn papers.
> 
> However, I will say that the pedigree talk has a way of taking on a life of it's own, like that link you just provided Carmen. Doesn't have much to do with the situation, as a few people, (yes including you), have said there. However, people are saying the OP needs to know about the pedigree so they can determine how far they will get. What a bunch of boloney. Sorry, that just almost makes me angry. It will be a cold day in **** when I ask for a pedigree before I train a dog. You work with the dog not the papers.
> 
> What that dog needs is some "real" obedience training and MUCH better management , not to mention a cool, confident handler that will insist the dog obeys when he is told to. No cookies, a correction that will ensure compliance. The handler has to convey to the dog that SHE is in charge and doesn't need the dog's help.. No nervous, timid handling, just calm, matter of fact and consistent.
> 
> Also, a dog who barks at people or dogs from behind the fence of their yard does not really concern me. The other situation in the Petco was one mistake after the other, period. Some of these things are pretty easy fixes if you can get the PEOPLE to be consistent, smart and present themselves to their dogs in the right way. Now the poster says she has lost confidence. BIG problem.
> 
> People turn things into self fulfilling prophecies when others are warning them of the dangers. The "Oh I can see the aggression in that pedigree" talk is the LAST thing they should be listening to. Seeing a trainer is a good idea but hopefully, it is a trainer who understands that this problem is MUCH more about the person than the dog...because it is.
> 
> BTW, most dogs are protective of their home, especially behind a fence. That is not a problem with the pedigree, that is a dog doing his job.



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I absolutely agree. Any dog has aggression, doesn't matter what the pedigree looks like. While it's nice to know what is in the pedigree, it's more important to get your butt up, find a good trainer and work that dog! 

The pedigree won't do the work for you. You don't train a dog based on pedigree, you work the dog itself. You can have the best pedigree in the world and the dog won't turn out anywhere near what is predicted because it's a living beeing and not a piece of paper. You can have the worst pedigree in the world and the dog exceeds every prediction that has been made. 

Work the dog, not the papers!


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## Samba

I haven 't owned a German Shepherd that could not go anywhere...playgrounds, restaraunts, parades, dog shows, house and kids. So I guess I can not speak to an overly sharp dog of liability nature. Few of these dogs, in their developmental stages of adolescence, were such thatt I didn't need to work with, expose and train in some of these scenarios as they learned the terrain and what was expected. I did not find them to be weak and nervy, but in adulthood to be some of the more talented and better endowed genetically with a variety of abilities.


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## Mrs.K

We always had extreme hardness and aggression in our dogs. Just think about a dog like Gildo. Most people only know him from the pedigree and that he brings hardness and aggression genetic wise. We also used to have sharp dogs. Those dogs ment business on the training field. It wasn't a game to them. They went to boarder control, military, police and sport.

But they could be taken anywhere. They pulled us kids on a sled. We walked all over them and they wouldn't make a single noice or growl. A lot of kids out of the neighborhood came in and out without anouncing themselves. 

If any of our dogs would have ever bitten a child or went after a human beeing while in our possession and care... which never happened, my father would have probably taken that dog and put him/her to sleep. That was one of the golden rules that no dog, ever showed, any kind of aggression towards us Kids and that we could handle every single dog in the kennel, even alone without supervision. 

By the time I was 14 years old I actually cleaned out the kennels, fed the dogs myself, let them out of the kennels and handled every single one of them myself, without supervision and help. Even dogs, that some adults would'nt have dared to touch themselves. 

If you looked at those pedigrees you'd say "Sheesh, those are bred for aggression, you MUST socialize that dog, train it hard and be careful around people and kids."

Honestly? The type of socialization that is talked about on this forum... we've never done that actively. They've been worked on the field but they never were actively socialized, yet you could take them downtown, to a restaurant or anywhere else. IT WAS SIMPLY EXPECTED and not something you actively trained for.... and if there was a dog that needed socialization or was ruined by their owners and came back. They became my dogs because I had a hand to get them back on track. There were maybe three dogs in 30 years.


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## Samba

It is just sucjh a no nonsense approach that can work well for a dog. Unfortunately, in a not so dog savvy culture a good bit of nonsense can get added to the handling that is not to the dog's benefit.


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## Mrs.K

Samba said:


> It is just sucjh a no nonsense approach that can work well for a dog. Unfortunately, in a not so dog savvy culture a good bit of nonsense can get added to the handling that is not to the dog's benefit.


Yeah, especially if you have a brand-new dog handler, not knowing what he/she is doing in combination with a people aggressive dog. 

The least thing they should do is to go out and "Socialize" in a public place...


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## codmaster

Rexy said:


> Fear biters don't all run into a corner, they either fight or flee, but they fight in defence drive, defence is fear. Over sharp reactive dogs will bite people with stranger aggression because they feel stressed, *sure they may protect (isn't that what you just said that they won't do)?*, but they are hard to handle, unsafe around strangers, foggy headed and a general pain in the butt. A dog of hardness and good character couldn't are less about strangers unless provoked, they are not blacking out in aggression at the end of the leash wanting to kill everyone, dogs like this are crap. *(little confusing!)*
> 
> A good GSD trained to fight is *an extension of prey drive*, they fight out of the pleasure of winning the fight not out of stress. Protection is fun for the dog, *a person is just a big tug* and the time you need defence drive to switch in is when the target tries to fight the dog, in a good trained dog, the attack phase is done out of confidence and pleasure not stress and fear.


Not so! How about a real K9? *Fighting the perp out of "Fun"?* Good way to get a dog killed real quick! *ScH -* sure you can train a dog that the fight is fun - like a good game of TUG! But it isn't a very good breed test if that is all it is, is it?

By definition, a fear biter dog will take flight if they can! *Rermember "Flight or fight"!*

Defense isn't always just fear - could be just aggression. 

Or maybe you think that a fighting Pit Bull/Akita or other fighting dogs fight out of FEAR?

Regarding prey vs defense drive - you should maybe read some explanations of these and other drives written by folks far more learned than I. And their importance and use in training. Might be interesting to you.

BTW, many folks are really upset with all of the ScH training going on today using nothing but prey drive - instead stating that some degree of that training should be using defense drive where the dog thinks he/she is fighting for it's life not just in a game with the sleeve.

Sounds like you would fall into that camp - ScH protection should just be a game of sleeve tugging. Right? And do not want a real serious dog!


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## Samba

There Is probably something that is often referred to as fight drive?The dog enjoys the fight. It is not like the "fun" of a game of tug. But, the dogs who have this do appear to "enjoy" a pretty serious combative encounter. A dog with this fight is serious and confident enough to enjoy such a thing.


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## Freestep

Rexy said:


> You can't use defence driven over sharp dogs in PP as the side effects of this type of dog are a liability,


I never said anything about "defence[sic] driven over sharp dogs". GSDs with proper temperament do exist. You do not have to train a dog to fight in prey drive in order to defuse a genuine threat. Such a dog may enjoy the fight, which is great for sport, but unless you make a habit of constantly putting yourself in dangerous situations (police, military, etc), you needn't train a dog to enjoy fighting in everyday situations.


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## Rexy

codmaster said:


> Not so! How about a real K9? *Fighting the perp out of "Fun"?* Good way to get a dog killed real quick! *ScH -* sure you can train a dog that the fight is fun - like a good game of TUG! But it isn't a very good breed test if that is all it is, is it?
> 
> By definition, a fear biter dog will take flight if they can! *Rermember "Flight or fight"!*
> 
> Defense isn't always just fear - could be just aggression.
> 
> Or maybe you think that a fighting Pit Bull/Akita or other fighting dogs fight out of FEAR?
> 
> Regarding prey vs defense drive - you should maybe read some explanations of these and other drives written by folks far more learned than I. And their importance and use in training. Might be interesting to you.
> 
> BTW, many folks are really upset with all of the ScH training going on today using nothing but prey drive - instead stating that some degree of that training should be using defense drive where the dog thinks he/she is fighting for it's life not just in a game with the sleeve.
> 
> Sounds like you would fall into that camp - ScH protection should just be a game of sleeve tugging. Right? And do not want a real serious dog!


Fear biters can do either, they can flee by default and fight when cornered, or they can nail someone before they nail them, regardless, they react from a fear response. Civil aggression has a fear component that switches a dog into defence, a sharp dog has a low threshold to reactivity couple the two traits together and you have a liability case on your hands, a dog that takes most of your training time teaching it not to react and attack, a dog that can never be trusted if and when it will light up. A dog that you can't invite friends over for a drink unless the dog is on leash and muzzled of locked away from guests, a junk yard guard dog is all this type of dog is good for and represent the true character of the GSD is my point.


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## Rexy

Samba said:


> There Is probably something that is often referred to as fight drive?The dog enjoys the fight. It is not like the "fun" of a game of tug. But, the dogs who have this do appear to "enjoy" a pretty serious combative encounter. A dog with this fight is serious and confident enough to enjoy such a thing.


Correct. With the right temperament in the dog, the more you add pressure in the fight, the harder the dog fights. The more training the dog has and experience fighting in this manner, the more confident the dog is of winning a fight, the more the dog enjoys it. Fighting drive is trained into the dog, it's not genetic component.


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## Rexy

Freestep said:


> I never said anything about "defence[sic] driven over sharp dogs". GSDs with proper temperament do exist. You do not have to train a dog to fight in prey drive in order to defuse a genuine threat. Such a dog may enjoy the fight, which is great for sport, but unless you make a habit of constantly putting yourself in dangerous situations (police, military, etc), you needn't train a dog to enjoy fighting in everyday situations.


Don't rely on an untrained dog to protect for real with a serious threat, the best that usually happens is the threat backs off from a barking GSD because of the breeds use in protection as a deterrent factor, even if the dog bites a good kick in the ribs can shut down an untrained dog and then what??. Unless the dog has been put through some training regimes to test the dogs character, the average GSD owner would have no idea what their dog would do in a fight until it happens, and maybe then its too late???. Yes, it's a possibility that an untrained dog may protect, but more often they won't in the crunch unless they are the right character and trained for the job.


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## Debbieg

Rexy said:


> A dog that you can't invite friends over for a drink unless the dog is on leash and muzzled of locked away from guests, a junk yard guard dog is all this type of dog is good for and represent the true character of the GSD is my point.



Maybe I am misunderstanding you, ( not enough caffeine ), I know there are some dogs like this, but they do not represent the true character of a GSD.

I believe many will instinctively protect. I have owned one that proved himself a time or two. Are they not bred to guard and protect the sheep? Would not a true GSD, according to the standard appropriately guard and protect their human pack?


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## lhczth

Rexy said:


> Correct. With the right temperament in the dog, the more you add pressure in the fight, the harder the dog fights. The more training the dog has and experience fighting in this manner, the more confident the dog is of winning a fight, the more the dog enjoys it. Fighting drive is trained into the dog, it's not genetic component.


You are confusing fighting drive and fight drive. Fighting drive is the balancing of the drives through training basically as you are stating above. Fight drive is not the same and does have a genetic component. A dog with fight drive works out of the desire to over power, control and thus defeat his/her opponent. They are not afraid or worried about their opponent (defense) nor are they working to win their prey. Most people will deny the existence of fight drive as a separate drive from defense and prey because they have never seen it. Fight drive, IMO, has always been less common in our breed and is even more so now.


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## Freestep

Rexy said:


> Fighting drive is trained into the dog, it's not genetic component.


Oh really? Then help me train some fighting drive into this Italian Greyhound, I think she could make a great protection dog, but only with your expert training, of course.


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## lhczth

Fighting drive has to have a genetic component. It is developed, though, through training. It used to be discussed in the critiques and the breed surveys. Courage, hardness and fighting drive Pronounced.


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## codmaster

Rexy said:


> Don't rely on an untrained dog to protect for real with a serious threat, the best that usually happens is the threat backs off from a barking GSD because of the breeds use in protection as a deterrent factor, even if the dog bites a good kick in the ribs can shut down an untrained dog and then what??. Unless the dog has been put through some training regimes to test the dogs character, the average GSD owner would have no idea what their dog would do in a fight until it happens, and maybe then its too late???. Yes, it's a possibility that an untrained dog may protect, but more often they won't in the crunch unless they are the right character and trained for the job.


By any chance do you do training in PP? It sounds like you might be drumming up business by stating that NO GSD (or any other dog for that matter) will not protect anything or anyone other than themselves.

BTW don't you think that a "good kick to the ribs" will not affect a "trained" dog? (as well as the untrained fear only biter?)


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## Samba

Fight drive most definitely genetically driven. That is "the right character". ..genetically endowed aspect of the dog. A dog without it...train all you want and you won't put it into a dog what is not there. Sure it is developed and molded in training for specific purposes. But, I pretty much knew which dog would probably exhibit it and which never would before any training.


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## cliffson1

True fight drive(the noun), is genetic and is found less and less these days. Fighting drive is enhanced by training, but many dogs with very good nerve and temperament do not have fight drive.


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## Samba

We had a local police K9 who was not overly social as he had a degree of suspicion. Not dangerous or fearful, but I never got the sense he wanted to be my best bud right off the rip. I guess he could be described as being somewhat civil. He brought a fair amount of fight drive with him also. He was, reportedly, a Gadax son. So good fight drive with some suspicion and reticence socially must occur?


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## Vandal

> True fight drive(the noun), is genetic and is found less and less these days. Fighting drive is enhanced by training, but many dogs with very good nerve and temperament do not have fight drive.


Yes


I see many dogs who are asked to work in protection and pressured to do so. What they show is what I would call reactive aggression vs real fight drive. People may think that is fight, because the dog will show nothing until pushed but fight drive is active aggression. The dogs I have had in the past and do own now, who have fight drive, all have developed a protectiveness rather young. This is where all the "labelers" want to start up, because they talk better than they understand dogs and especially German Shepherd dogs. There is a level of percociousness in the dogs I have seen and you can see from the first session in protection, whether the dog has "it" or not. Many of these dogs were more aloof and not interested in strangers. Some needed direction as young dogs but developed into perfect "gentlemen" or "ladies" as adults...all were VERY good with children but might be more watchful of adults. 
Vandal, who was posted earlier in this thread, might be considered a POS by some posting here. That dog would and did protect me on more than one occasion. Never saw a day of personal protection training in his life and was trained all in prey for SchH. He was the experiment when prey work was first introduced. That dog had an instinctual desire to protect, was wonderful with my 5 year old niece who came to live with us and was so gentle, he "fostered" a litter of kittens I found.
I have a young dog now, descended from that line who is the same. Never been around children but instinctively gentle with the ones he has met. Loves the fight and although just recently started in protection , you can see the fight drive and it was apparent from the get go. You cannot put into the dog what is not there genetically. It is ridiculous to think a German Shepherd dog will not protect without training. Yes, there are many who will not but that is because some people are no longer attempting to breed German Shepherds.


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## codmaster

Vandal said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> I see many dogs who are asked to work in protection and pressured to do so. What they show is what I would call reactive aggression vs real fight drive. People may think that is fight, because the dog will show nothing until pushed but fight drive is active aggression. The dogs I have had in the past and do own now, who have fight drive, *all have developed a protectiveness rather young.* This is where all the "labelers" want to start up, because they talk better than they understand dogs and especially German Shepherd dogs. There is a level of percociousness in the dogs I have seen and you can see from the first session in protection, whether the dog has "it" or not. Many of these dogs were more aloof and not interested in strangers. Some needed direction as young dogs but developed into perfect "gentlemen" or "ladies" as adults...all were VERY good with children but might be more watchful of adults.
> Vandal, who was posted earlier in this thread, might be considered a POS by some posting here. That dog would and did protect me on more than one occasion. Never saw a day of personal protection training in his life and was trained all in prey for SchH. He was the experiment when prey work was first introduced. That dog had an instinctual desire to protect, was wonderful with my 5 year old niece who came to live with us and was so gentle, he "fostered" a litter of kittens I found.
> I have a young dog now, descended from that line who is the same. Never been around children but instinctively gentle with the ones he has met. Loves the fight and although just recently started in protection , you can see the fight drive and it was apparent from the get go. You cannot put into the dog what is not there genetically. *It is ridiculous to think a German Shepherd dog will not protect without training. Yes, there are many who will not but that is because some people are no longer attempting to breed German Shepherds*.


 
Well said!


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## Debbieg

Vandal said:


> Yes
> 
> . It is ridiculous to think a German Shepherd dog will not protect without training. Yes, there are many who will not but that is because some people are no longer attempting to breed German Shepherds.


:thumbup:

Maybe many are no longer attempting to breed these type of German Shepherds because they have never known or had one, to know they exist and were once much more common.


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## carmspack

it is more difficult to find homes for dogs with people who understand and appreciate them. 

Rather topical . In yesterdays Toronto Star , the major newspaper , there was an article which caught my attention - because here we are talking about aggressive dogs and fearful dogs but mostly biting dogs .

Deep into the article "Beginning in 2005, the Dog Owners Liability Act heralded a wave of restrictive legislative measures. Yet despite breed bans and increased penalties, dog bites continued. It is an ongoing and unresolved problem" 

The writer continues to say that owners of friendly dogs looking for relief from regulations are pretty well forced to congregate at municipal dog parks . 
Instead of being socialized and integrated into normal community city streets , these dog parks are further and further away banished to isolated corners .
The writer asks whether in this action there is actually some danger , citing the European experience where well-mannered dogs are allowed and welcome in pubs and cafe's and shops. Bite prevention there focuses on dogs being well socialized .

"North American style dog parks do create socialization opportunities toward other dogs. But too much of a good thing can lead to a dog that is CRITICALLY UNDER SOCIALIZED (my emphasis) on city streets -- places where families gather and children play. "
"These animals become more prone to biting, leading to even more legislation. We're legislating our way into a tailspin of dog bites and dog attacks." 

speaking of service dogs in training, and I would include police service dogs , take upwards of a year spent in basic socialization skills , being exposed to different places and situations .  
The dog learns through exposure while being under control "given his table manners" , as the writer says . 

"Removing barriers to socialization has the opposite effect , raising the bar on canine etiquette . Expectations are placed on both pets and their owners . Working to achieve a dog that is welcome anywhere becomes a badge of honour. ............. The dogs learn how to become a safe part of our (OUR my emphasis) community.

the parts in quotes were from Yvette van Veen who writes a pets column for the Toronto Star.



Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

Debbieg said :thumbup:

Maybe many are no longer attempting to breed these type of German Shepherds because they have never known or had one, to know they exist and were once much more 
common. 

xx that discussion can take you right back to the question about why can't the working dogs do really well in schutzhund -- or you know the thread .

The answer is partly because the club members and the decoys are so obsessed in working the dog in prey doing bite work stimulation too cheap and easy and way too early , or the decoy jumping around like a silly monkey , once again in prey. 

not well said - probably out of years of frustration in not seeing any changes 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs 
__________________


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## Rexy

lhczth said:


> You are confusing fighting drive and fight drive. Fighting drive is the balancing of the drives through training basically as you are stating above. Fight drive is not the same and does have a genetic component. A dog with fight drive works out of the desire to over power, control and thus defeat his/her opponent. They are not afraid or worried about their opponent (defense) nor are they working to win their prey. Most people will deny the existence of fight drive as a separate drive from defense and prey because they have never seen it. Fight drive, IMO, has always been less common in our breed and is even more so now.


We know of the drive you describe as social aggression, comes with an alpha dominance trait, I know what you are describing and it is extremely rare to see it and generally only seen in males. I have only known a couple of dogs to have this drive although in breeding these dogs it was sadly never never reproduced in my experience. I believe it's more common in some Czech lines perhaps. The last dog I most experienced this drive with was linebred on Dolf ze Zakovy Hory with Mink on the bitch side.


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## Rexy

codmaster said:


> By any chance do you do training in PP? It sounds like you might be drumming up business by stating that NO GSD (or any other dog for that matter) will not protect anything or anyone other than themselves.
> 
> BTW don't you think that a "good kick to the ribs" will not affect a "trained" dog? (as well as the untrained fear only biter?)


I guess you will tell us next that police k9's are not trained, just get a good dog and go out on patrol and let instincts kick in? Plenty of private sector security officers have tried that with fear biters, dogs that light up fast on the end of the leash and look the part ending up in trip to hospital when the dog in the crunch ran away leaving the handler to cop a beating???.

You need the type of dog in the fight where pain and aversion elevates aggression in a real life scenario an offender will try and fight the dog with what ever means they have. In training a simple test for this can be done with an Ecollar stim, the dog that shuts down and falls off the sleeve and there are plenty of them, are the wrong temperpament for a reliable protection dog, the ideal temperament in the Ecollar test the dog will fight harder, the aggression level is elevated by the aversion of the stim, the same will occur on a prong collar or kick in the ribs, that factor in the dog is a genetic component found in some lines.


----------



## codmaster

Rexy said:


> We know of the drive you describe as social aggression, comes with an *alpha dominance trait*, I know what you are describing and it is extremely rare to see it and generally *only seen in males*. I have only known *a couple of dogs to have this drive* although in breeding these dogs it was sadly never never reproduced in my experience. I believe it's more common in some Czech lines perhaps. The last dog I most experienced this drive with was linebred on Dolf ze Zakovy Hory with Mink on the bitch side.


 
So how would this rarely seen drive show up? I.e. if one dog had it and another didn't - where and under what circumstances would one see it? What difference of behavior would the existence (or absence) of the new drive influence? Only show up as aggression/protectivness? Or maybe just in a calm(confident) behavior under threatening situation?

For example, walking down a dark ally and three threatening individuals come rushing at the dog (by himself) shouting, waving a stick, yelling and shooting blanks - any difference in the reaction of a dog with this drive and without it?

If not what circumstances would best demonstrate it?

Maybe something on the ScH protection field?


----------



## Rexy

Vandal said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> I see many dogs who are asked to work in protection and pressured to do so. What they show is what I would call reactive aggression vs real fight drive. People may think that is fight, because the dog will show nothing until pushed but fight drive is active aggression. The dogs I have had in the past and do own now, who have fight drive, all have developed a protectiveness rather young. This is where all the "labelers" want to start up, because they talk better than they understand dogs and especially German Shepherd dogs. There is a level of percociousness in the dogs I have seen and you can see from the first session in protection, whether the dog has "it" or not. Many of these dogs were more aloof and not interested in strangers. Some needed direction as young dogs but developed into perfect "gentlemen" or "ladies" as adults...all were VERY good with children but might be more watchful of adults.
> Vandal, who was posted earlier in this thread, might be considered a POS by some posting here. That dog would and did protect me on more than one occasion. Never saw a day of personal protection training in his life and was trained all in prey for SchH. He was the experiment when prey work was first introduced. That dog had an instinctual desire to protect, was wonderful with my 5 year old niece who came to live with us and was so gentle, he "fostered" a litter of kittens I found.
> I have a young dog now, descended from that line who is the same. Never been around children but instinctively gentle with the ones he has met. Loves the fight and although just recently started in protection , you can see the fight drive and it was apparent from the get go. You cannot put into the dog what is not there genetically. It is ridiculous to think a German Shepherd dog will not protect without training. Yes, there are many who will not but that is because some people are no longer attempting to breed German Shepherds.


What???, a SchH3 dog is untrained???. Many well trained Sch dogs will protect, I am talking family pets with basic obedience training, bit difference???.


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## codmaster

Rexy said:


> What???, a SchH3 dog is untrained???. Many well trained Sch dogs will protect, I am talking family pets with basic obedience training, bit difference???.


 
*"bit" difference???*


Do you think that ALL ScH3 dogs will protect their owners? 

And will they fight to the death?

What if the assailant doesn't wear a sleeve? Will that make a difference, in your opinion?


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## codmaster

Rexy said:


> I guess you will tell us next that police k9's are not trained, just get a good dog and go out on patrol and let instincts kick in?
> 
> Plenty of private sector security officers have tried that with fear biters, dogs that light up fast on the end of the leash and look the part ending up in trip to hospital when the dog in the crunch ran away leaving the handler to cop a beating???.
> 
> You need the type of dog in the fight where pain and aversion elevates aggression in a real life scenario an offender will try and fight the dog with what ever means they have. In training a simple test for this can be done with an Ecollar stim, the dog that shuts down and falls off the sleeve and there are plenty of them, are the wrong temperpament for a reliable protection dog, the ideal temperament in the Ecollar test the dog will fight harder, the aggression level is elevated by the aversion of the stim, the same will occur on a prong collar or kick in the ribs, *that factor in the dog is a genetic component found in some lines*.


*Why not then use a fighting pit bull - bred for many years for this very trait! Maybe an outcross to improve this trait?*

*BTW, what e-collar have you actually used to test this trait and what level did you have to go to determine if the dog had the right genetic makeup to pass your test? How old were the dogs that you tested and were they all already trained in protection or did you test them all before you wasted any time in doing the training?*

*I think that your findings would prove extremely interesting to all protection trainers, esp. in the real world protection arena, of course - police K9 and military esp., so please let us all know what actul results that you achieved.*

*Would you happen to know how this trait that you claim as genetic is actually inherited- single gene or multiple, passed through both parents or just through the male or just the female parent? *

*Might you have any research references to work done on it's inheritance in GSD's; or are you just referencing anecdotal evidence and someone's feeling about the genetics that you mention?*

*It seems that you overlooked my questions in the quote that you made:*

Originally Posted by *codmaster*  
_*By any chance do you do training in PP?* It sounds like you might be drumming up business by stating that NO GSD (or any other dog for that matter) will not protect anything or anyone other than themselves.

BTW don't you think that a "good kick to the ribs" will not affect a "trained" dog? (as well as the untrained fear only biter?)_

_So, *are you* a PP trainer? Do it for a fee or maybe sell "trained" PP dogs, do you? Just curious??????_


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## carmspack

this is going to be very difficult to describe if you have not dealt with dogs with high active aggression .

there is a certain presence that can be seen very early on .
the dogs with strong fight have a calm , quiet self assured quality -- with them there is no might (as in questionable) in their might (as in power) . The nerves are rock solid steady.
that does not mean they are sideline dogs . This is not laziness, as the dogs want to master and control and are self motivating in work as part of their agenda to get really good and competent . 
Do not ever discount the power of a female in active aggression . I know some real forceful females -- and it is definitely genetic , Sabrina , her daughter BlackJack , her son Agro (PD) etc.
Joe Kuhn , dear friend , departed and missed , told me of his visiting a kennel. Now Joe was known for his love of hard , man-stopper dogs , and this female made a super impression on him. So much so that he bought her . When he visited he had his eye on this female , who in his retelling was as quiet as the eye of the storm , but you could sense the power . He wanted to apply his test , which was not ball, never ball, not sleeve work , he became beligerent to the owner raising his voice , and the dog pumped up , still watchful , and then he did something and Joe said the dog drove him backwards into the wall and held him there . He loved it ! Bought the female.

She was Monchi Malatesta Linda vom Kuhnhof - German Shepherd Dog

Her mother Alfa vom Schwarzen Brink was also mother to Lewis Malatesta who certainly was known for this active aggression. Lewis is a combination of Alfa who has Pascha Glockeneck , and Mink Wittfeld who has Ignaz , two dogs known to produce this serious type of dog .

Then I got Linda vom Kuhnhof - German Shepherd Dog Linda Kuhnhof , daughter of Monchi and Addi who was a dog of similar temperament. Those lines flow through my dogs to this day , as seen in Samba's Samba 
Carmspack Samba - German Shepherd Dog . 

Effective for herding ? Yes , because the dog has the desire to impose rules and order and will enforce them using his physical sense and his presence without hesitation , without fear , and will hang in there until the job is done. I tend to find that there is a high pain threshold , there is a resilience and ability to handle a great deal of pressure. 
In my experience I have not had such a dog redirect on me . The direction of the aggression is always correct .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

comment on the pit bull --- they were never meant to have man aggression . This was aberant and those dogs were put down . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

too late to edit , Monchi Malatesta Monchi von Malatesta - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack

lewis malatesta Lewis von Malatesta#

Lewis was in the US for a while and Joe and I had plans to use him - discussed the pedigrees etc . , had the owner on board , I believe Joe went with his female who was in season before mine . Lewis was elderly and had some problems with fertility at the time , so no pups , for Joe , and I didn't go because by then it was confirmed. Too bad . That was one heck of a dog.


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## Mrs.K

> Effective for herding ? Yes , because the dog has the desire to impose rules and order and will enforce them using his physical sense and his presence without hesitation , without fear , and will hang in there until the job is done. I tend to find that there is a high pain threshold , there is a resilience and ability to handle a great deal of pressure.
> In my experience I have not had such a dog redirect on me . The direction of the aggression is always correct .



I know of a bitch like that. You could smack her and she wouldn't even flinch. Constantly policing and herding and most of the time just using her presence. Extremely stable dog and she doesn't give up. She wants to work, she wants to do it right and she would do it until she drops.


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## cliffson1

Wow...a lot of good stuff from everybody....what Rexy is saying about the type dog in reference to E collar and prong collar is very true...I see it in police K9's a lot. These dogs are tough, have high pain tolerance, will escalate the fight if you fight back, actually love the fight, and can also be very stable out of the conflict world. Ther are some Sch dogs like this, but you see them less and less. You do see them with Czech lines often, but here is the key....often dogs like this in training,(especially when training is on a schedule like a police academy, you cant spend 5 years on something), can become very rank to the handler when asked to move at the academies or training schedule pace. One of the virtues of the Czech dogs was they had that strong assertive aggression but at the same time were subservient to the handler especially under big time stress and correction. Some of these dogs aren't, and become more headache than worth. If you need a dog psychiatrist to get the dog to channel the aggression in the right direction consistently, I consider that a liability.
As for Lewis Malestesta, I saw him when he was here and saw him do some obedience and protection work. He was one of those dogs Carmen was describing. I petted him, but brother he was a COMMANDING dog. He wasn't hyper or anything, you just looked at him and knew he wasn't backing down from anything you brought. Gave me goosebumps....really really liked him but definitely respected him.


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## carmspack

the last few replies can probably be moved to the why aren't working dogs chosen for sport 

In the meantime taking it back to page one , or including all those members questions about some female often from show lines of any origin being taken to a Czech dog or a working line , please see that the dogs with the strong active aggression are very able to conduct themselves , under self control in wide open society. They are not the hazard because they don't fire off without reason . Rock solid nerve . However when mixing this "power" which is stable , with a female who is as reactive as a kite is a gust of wind , then you have a problem.
Or think of it as a pretty table lamp , and then you use a light bulb with too many watts, a 100 in a socket prepared for 60 .

so Cliff , Lewis at a doggy day care ?

sorry choppy and distracted -- another busy day 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Vandal

What Vandal did as a protection dog had nothing to do with SchH. It was who the dog was genetically which you seem to be saying and then contradicting. You will need to make up your mind. That dog was protective and fearless, way before he was titled.

I have seen social aggression in more dogs than just one bloodline and that is where the protective instinct comes from. Lisa is describing fight drive but I have not seen a dog with "real" fight drive who did not have social aggression. For me, that is part of what it is. Most people do not want a dog with social aggression but that is what is missing in the dogs nowadays. Most have never seen a dog like this, so cannot picture it when talked about....as has already been said.

As for what Carmen said about active aggression. I have seen and worked a number of females with social/ active aggression. It is a bloodline trait, not a gender trait.

None of the dogs I handled ever came back at me with a correction but I raised the dogs. So, what Cliff is saying, I can see happening but IMO, it is not because of the schedule but because of the change in handlers. These are not dogs who change homes/handlers easily. They are exceptionally loyal to their family .


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## Vandal

Out of edit time. I wanted to adjust my comment about Cliff's statement. The schedule does play into it because the dog has no time to bond with the handler. That bond needs to be there with the kind of dog I am talking about.

I have read some people who think there is something wrong with a dog who will not come out of the crate and play ball with a new handler and like them immediately. That is just not what I consider to be a GSD. It is not because they are weak or there is something wrong with their temperament. The GSD has always been described as loyal and a GSD,( who really IS one), will need time to adjust to a new person.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> In the meantime taking it back to page one , or including all those members questions about some female often from show lines of any origin being taken to a Czech dog or a working line , please see that the dogs with the strong active aggression are very able to conduct themselves , under self control in wide open society. They are not the hazard because they don't fire off without reason . Rock solid nerve . However when mixing this "power" which is stable , with a female who is as reactive as a kite is a gust of wind , then you have a problem.
> 
> Or think of it as a pretty table lamp , and then you use a light bulb with too many watts, a 100 in a socket prepared for 60 .


Very good way of describing it. This is my concern in the other thread where the OP is looking at a breeder mixing her Czech male with a showline female. Spooky.


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## Samba

I often wonder about those dogs who come back at the handler. I myself have mostly seen this in two situations...a new handler who the dog has not bonded with and a type of handler who creates just the situation that would inspire even me to come at them. 

My young male likely would not take corrections or handle well for someone else. He "loves" me though! Bad kinda handler aggressive dog? For you maybe. 

Yikes, my Carmspack female going back to the lines mentioned s as described! It must deinitely be a bloodline trait. High social aggression. Huge loyalty. Absolutely unwavering in keepimg order in a sheep flock. 

I remember some talk on threads where people were longing for old herding line type. I contend many people would not really want them. Sure, the genetic obedience makes control easier....but, there is still a lot of dog there to control. Mine is not a doggie daycare candidate! 

I have a handler aggressive male...at least to you in a given situation.Aggressive toward me?? I never give it a thought.


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## carmspack

agree Vandal , these are not dogs for commerce because of that loyalty . A bonding period is necessary . This is the OLD breed specific characteristic though , that loyalty , that discrimination and reserve . 

von Stephanitz made it clear that this was not a breed that wore its heart on the sleeve.


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## gagsd

I have two dogs that are able to stop people with a look. Mother and son. 
When I first got Cora, I reached down to grab her collar one day, and received The Look. We were not bonded, and I was trying to "control" her. Learned quickly that was not a good idea!

Ari first gave someone The Look at about 8 months old. Man approaced in a suspicious manner while out for a walk. Man quickly turned and retreated.
Since then, any person approaching in a threatening manner gets it. This is very much a line-in-the-sand kind of dog.
Very sensitive to me and what I want, very stable, awesome with children. Does not harkle, bark or outwardly threaten people unless in protection work. He just possess this ability to make people stop in their tracks.... his mom is the same. As are/were his sire and grandsire.

edited:
He also shows great natural ability in herding and stockdog work. And his schutzhund protection training is FUN!


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## Rexy

codmaster said:


> *"bit" difference???*
> 
> 
> Do you think that ALL ScH3 dogs will protect their owners?
> 
> And will they fight to the death?
> 
> What if the assailant doesn't wear a sleeve? Will that make a difference, in your opinion?


It depends how the dog is trained in bitework. Schutzhund is not a whole lot different than civil protection, the basics are the same. The problem is when someone buys a Sch trained dog for PP or a Sch trained dog is sold for PP and the new owner doesn't know the training the dog has the expects the dog to bite without a sleeve, maybe it will maybe not??.


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## Rexy

carmspack said:


> this is going to be very difficult to describe if you have not dealt with dogs with high active aggression .
> 
> there is a certain presence that can be seen very early on .
> the dogs with strong fight have a calm , quiet self assured quality -- with them there is no might (as in questionable) in their might (as in power) . The nerves are rock solid steady.
> that does not mean they are sideline dogs . This is not laziness, as the dogs want to master and control and are self motivating in work as part of their agenda to get really good and competent .
> Do not ever discount the power of a female in active aggression . I know some real forceful females -- and it is definitely genetic , Sabrina , her daughter BlackJack , her son Agro (PD) etc.
> Joe Kuhn , dear friend , departed and missed , told me of his visiting a kennel. Now Joe was known for his love of hard , man-stopper dogs , and this female made a super impression on him. So much so that he bought her . When he visited he had his eye on this female , who in his retelling was as quiet as the eye of the storm , but you could sense the power . He wanted to apply his test , which was not ball, never ball, not sleeve work , he became beligerent to the owner raising his voice , and the dog pumped up , still watchful , and then he did something and Joe said the dog drove him backwards into the wall and held him there . He loved it ! Bought the female.
> 
> She was Monchi Malatesta Linda vom Kuhnhof - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> Her mother Alfa vom Schwarzen Brink was also mother to Lewis Malatesta who certainly was known for this active aggression. Lewis is a combination of Alfa who has Pascha Glockeneck , and Mink Wittfeld who has Ignaz , two dogs known to produce this serious type of dog .
> 
> Then I got Linda vom Kuhnhof - German Shepherd Dog Linda Kuhnhof , daughter of Monchi and Addi who was a dog of similar temperament. Those lines flow through my dogs to this day , as seen in Samba's Samba
> Carmspack Samba - German Shepherd Dog .
> 
> Effective for herding ? Yes , because the dog has the desire to impose rules and order and will enforce them using his physical sense and his presence without hesitation , without fear , and will hang in there until the job is done. I tend to find that there is a high pain threshold , there is a resilience and ability to handle a great deal of pressure.
> In my experience I have not had such a dog redirect on me . The direction of the aggression is always correct .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Very nice description I totally agree. The only time I have seen this type of dog redirect is with heavy handed training, usually the dog will warn the handler, stare and growl in protest more than engage, however, they generally motivate well and don't need handler conflict.


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## carmspack

am I never going to get back to my schedule ?

yes , never had a dog come back at me , and I've skidded out on glare ice and landed on top of them and continued in the skid with the dog underneath me , who caused me to trip in the first place .
When handler puts pressure on the dog responds in higher drive , not diminished . 

so then since so many dogs in US pd service come from brokers , which is meant to be a volume quick in and out , and bought on a as needed basis , often without any period to bond prior to certification courses, does this alter the nature of the dogs being produced abroad and the type of dogs in general. 
Dog and handler must be given a period to know and respect and bond with each other, sort of like an arranged marriage I guess .

Then people who have these types of dogs will be told by schutzhund clubs that they have a dog who can't do schutzhund .

Samba -- yes it is most definitely genetic , remember all the tips I gave you when Samba was young ? 
The first year only needs for the dog to get some age and experience out in the big wide world. All this bite development and motivating with a ball is not necessary . The dogs have a self generated motivation to work. They track because they get great satisfaction from tracking. They herd and show instinct , which is not the crazy sheep chasing on so many youtubeys , and show power and control the first time the meet the wooly beasts.

The litter that I had in June with the pup who was able to and repeated opening a fridge door to get out the bag of milk has those genetics , Carmspack Cubby - German Shepherd Dog x CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German Shepherd Dog bringing in Mink , and Ignaz and Link and Matsch and lines to B Lierberg's combination.

Bicolour male OZLO always had "it" and everyone was able to recognize "it" from the time he was 6 weeks old.

Nothing will flatten or suppress him . Clever to an extreme . Climbs out of 4 1/2 foot pen in seconds. Husband created a barrier that overhung the area that he chose to get out. Dogs solution, keep on trying grab the latice overhang let weight drop , latice barrier falls into pen , dog gets out of pen. Next solution using a smaller skid with lateral bars spaced maybe two feet apart so hard to get a foothold. Skid fixed onto gate so that it was bolt upright , but had some movement so that I could get in and out and door could open. Worked for a few days. We were laughing because we would watch him sitting in front of the barrier , very intensely studying it . Then one day we catch Ozlo in the act. He has figured out that if he pulled on the barrier long enough he could get it onto an angle (think ladder) he could scale it. I caught him 2/3 of the way out to freedom. 

So another observation. Sunday I had a long time friend who has much experience with dogs include one of my Brawnson males , visit. It was yet another busy multi tasking days , and since I trust this person totally I gave him permission to open the gate and let the pups socialize with him.
Oh sure .
He opened the gate , did a cursory jump up and greet and then the two of the pups , female Le Reve and male Ozlo , ran to the big pond and were swimming away like otters playing .
Meanwhile my friend was trying to get them out of the water . 
They would come out , give him a bit of a chase and then do what they wanted . 
I caught site of my friend out the kitchen window and saw he needed rescuing as he had zero control over the situation. 
The moment I stepped out the front door and said , where are they , the moment they heard my voice , I saw them dragging their wet bodies out of the water and come running to me . I then walked over to where my friend was and we continued walking around the field , pups paying total attention to me . These dogs are wonderfully social . Male has already gone with me to warehouse and that was very interesting -- downtown industrial west end Toronto - train yard with cars being shunted and squealing , car wreckers , warehouse all in the same area , only footsteps away.



Carmen


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## Rexy

cliffson1 said:


> Wow...a lot of good stuff from everybody....what Rexy is saying about the type dog in reference to E collar and prong collar is very true...I see it in police K9's a lot. These dogs are tough, have high pain tolerance, will escalate the fight if you fight back, actually love the fight, and can also be very stable out of the conflict world. Ther are some Sch dogs like this, but you see them less and less. You do see them with Czech lines often, but here is the key....often dogs like this in training,(especially when training is on a schedule like a police academy, you cant spend 5 years on something), can become very rank to the handler when asked to move at the academies or training schedule pace. One of the virtues of the Czech dogs was they had that strong assertive aggression but at the same time were subservient to the handler especially under big time stress and correction. Some of these dogs aren't, and become more headache than worth. If you need a dog psychiatrist to get the dog to channel the aggression in the right direction consistently, I consider that a liability.
> As for Lewis Malestesta, I saw him when he was here and saw him do some obedience and protection work. He was one of those dogs Carmen was describing. I petted him, but brother he was a COMMANDING dog. He wasn't hyper or anything, you just looked at him and knew he wasn't backing down from anything you brought. Gave me goosebumps....really really liked him but definitely respected him.


I have noticed some progeny out of Cross Korenov Sad of late is producing this type of dog with a nice off switch and good stability.


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## Rexy

Vandal said:


> What Vandal did as a protection dog had nothing to do with SchH. It was who the dog was genetically which you seem to be saying and then contradicting. You will need to make up your mind. That dog was protective and fearless, way before he was titled.
> 
> I have seen social aggression in more dogs than just one bloodline and that is where the protective instinct comes from. Lisa is describing fight drive but I have not seen a dog with "real" fight drive who did not have social aggression. For me, that is part of what it is. Most people do not want a dog with social aggression but that is what is missing in the dogs nowadays. Most have never seen a dog like this, so cannot picture it when talked about....as has already been said.
> 
> As for what Carmen said about active aggression. I have seen and worked a number of females with social/ active aggression. It is a bloodline trait, not a gender trait.
> 
> None of the dogs I handled ever came back at me with a correction but I raised the dogs. So, what Cliff is saying, I can see happening but IMO, it is not because of the schedule but because of the change in handlers. These are not dogs who change homes/handlers easily. They are exceptionally loyal to their family .


Sharpness and civil drive has a similar appearance to social aggression, they both want to bite people outside of their family pack, the sharp civil dog reacts under stress, the dog with social aggression reats out of a dominance component. I have never seen a bitch yet that I would classify as having true social aggression, there are some but it's rare, well rare for any dogs these days really??.


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## lhczth

Rexy said:


> I have never seen a bitch yet that I would classify as having true social aggression, there are some but it's rare, well rare for any dogs these days really??.


Rexy, you need to see more dogs.  They are out there and several of us who have written in this thread have owned them. No, not as common as the males, but they do exist. 


Another dog with high social aggression and fight drive that came to the states was Belschik Eicken-Bruche. I saw him just before he turned 12 and this was a dog with tremendous presence. He knew he owned the world.


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## Samba

Did anyone know a bitch Mike D. had...Tara v Wildenbruch. I never got to see her in person but did get the impression she possessed social aggression.


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## gagsd

The female I spoke about in my previous post is a daughter of Brawnson and Tara.


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## Vandal

> Sharpness and civil drive has a similar appearance to social aggression, <snip> the sharp civil dog reacts under stress, the dog with social aggression reats out of a dominance component


NO, they do not look the same at all....unless you are someone who reads books more than you read dogs.


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## gagsd

Vandal said:


> NO, they do not look the same at all.


Agreed! I have a "sharp" dog. She is nothing like my Ari dog. Ari is very easy to handle around people, at Petco, the park, wherever. Elf, my "sharp" dog is not. I have to constantly watch for potential trouble.

People think Ari is "boring" or "just a nice dog" until he gets turned on to something or someone. He only reacts when a threat is presented, and even then it is with a calmness of purpose. (and I am not discussing schutzhund work here, just everyday attitude).


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## Vandal

It is always very interesting to listen to others who have experienced dogs from older bloodlines. There IS a connection in how these dogs do protection and how much they love to track and also in that intelligence that Carmen is talking about. I experienced all those things in one dog and those 'one dogs" were much more common years ago. Anyway, what I am saying and what I have always thought, is that the dogs with social aggression have these other attributes connected. Can't quite put it in the right words but I think Carmen will get what I am saying.

Also, I remember talking to Carla about Samba. I have a feeling that Carla is a different handler today then when we were talking years ago. These dogs that show these traits early, IMO, need a certain type of handling. These are intuitive animals and sense and can feel their handler's emotions, nerves, etc. That aspect can either help /direct the dog properly or create problems.


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## Rexy

lhczth said:


> Rexy, you need to see more dogs.  They are out there and several of us who have written in this thread have owned them. No, not as common as the males, but they do exist.
> 
> 
> Another dog with high social aggression and fight drive that came to the states was Belschik Eicken-Bruche. I saw him just before he turned 12 and this was a dog with tremendous presence. He knew he owned the world.


I have seen plenty of dogs who the owners believe they have traits of social aggression which range from complete fear biters to sharp civil dogs with reactive aggression. The last dog I saw with true social aggression was a Mink grandson Fax vom Grenzganger.


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## Rexy

Vandal said:


> NO, they do not look the same at all....unless you are someone who reads books more than you read dogs.


You would be surprised then how many breeders and fairly good trainers can't tell the difference


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## Vandal

> You would be surprised then how many breeders and fairly good trainers can't tell the difference


No, I wouldn't. lol.

What does surprise me is this comment:


> have seen plenty of dogs who the owners believe they have traits of social aggression


I have rarely met people who knew what social aggression is, much less trying to decide if their dog had it. I find this amazing and wonder where you live that people are doing this.


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## Mrs.K

> am I never going to get back to my schedule ?


There is a cure. It's called an on/off button. 

Turn off the computer and walk away.


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## lhczth

but what do you do when you never shut off your computer? :rofl:


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## gagsd

Or have a handheld????
Technology is taking over, and I can't decide if I love it or not.


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## lhczth

And it is even worse when you are dealing with a day of yucky weather. I managed to run blinds this morning with Deja and it has been pouring ever since.


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## Samba

Vandal said:


> Also, I remember talking to Carla about Samba. I have a feeling that Carla is a different handler today then when we were talking years ago. These dogs that show these traits early, IMO, need a certain type of handling. These are intuitive animals and sense and can feel their handler's emotions, nerves, etc. That aspect can either help /direct the dog properly or create problems.


I hope that I have learned a bit of something. It was not an easy go all the time. Have to say, I am no natural dog handler! The dogs I have had were great teachers. Samba is definitely a dog as described in the topics of older bloodlines and herding able dogs. I had no idea when I got her, but she has weathered me pretty well. She in her 11th year. A big fear of mine....I may never have another. Without the guidance of people with experience with such dogs, it might not have gone so well. These dogs are very attuned to the handler... That can allow for amazing work if the handler is good or go to heck if the converse happens.

I do get what Anne is saying about the handling of certain types of dogs. Done poorly the dog can look not so good. The handling as the dog matures and the training communication during development are important. I am sure Anne has seen a few good dogs look like poo due to owner handling? Hardly fair to say the dog is the ness in these instances.


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## carmspack

Mrs.K said:


> There is a cure. It's called an on/off button.
> 
> Turn off the computer and walk away.


I can't Mrs K, I can't . I love a good discussion.


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## carmspack

fear biters are not rock solid in temperament and REactive aggression is not active or social aggression so that is not even the same thing at all. 
This quality has nothing to do with gender . 
Here is another example of a female with tremendous social aggression Fani dyma z pa mor - German Shepherd Dog Shepherd Glen K9 - German Shepherd Breeder - Fani

I mentioned Matsch Bungalow before , he himself had social aggression , and he had a reputation for producing females with similar - Ira Korbelbach , dam to Arek Stoffelblick, Ira , Ina Scherwald Ira vom Scherwald - German Shepherd Dog.
Matsch behind CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German Shepherd Dog Carmina Sitting Bull combined with Cubby's Monchi Malatesta --- pedigree built for this power active aggression -- 
interrupted again by work -later 
Carmen


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## Rexy

Vandal said:


> No, I wouldn't. lol.
> 
> What does surprise me is this comment:
> 
> 
> I have rarely met people who knew what social aggression is, much less trying to decide if their dog had it. I find this amazing and wonder where you live that people are doing this.


It mostly comes from private sector K9 security where they like reactive dogs, many sadly are fear biters that are popular in this industry.


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## lhczth

Ina Scherwald, the dam of Belschik (who was of his mother's type), was linebred on Matsch 3-2. The breeding I did this year was also linebred on both Ira Körbelbach and Matsch Bungalow and was a big reason why I did the breeding.


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## carmspack

I think if you were to review pedigrees of dogs with "active aggression" you would find a strong vein of it running through the dams , and often the dams match the description themselves.
This was how it was even when von Stephanitz chose his local herding females to take to the fancy conformation males - (read Thuringian) . 

sport / schutzhund tends to appreciate and sanction higher and higher prey drive dogs - another reason that these solid tough dogs are being left behind in the popularity polls .

I can not think of any show line dogs that exhibit this trait . Does anyone know of a dog from those lines which is consistent forwards and backwards in carrying this . 

It definitely is genetic . Not trained .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## lhczth

And thus is our challenge today to maintain the balance that was used in creating this breed.


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## dogsnkiddos

I realize this thread is a bit old now but I want to thank all of you who contributed to it. I stumbled upon this thread and was attracted by the title. My eye was drawn to the common link between the posted pedigree and my Beast causing me to read further. When I first had Beast in my home I think I posted his pedigree here. I got a bunch of private messages asking me if he was over the top, aggressive, handler aggressive, etc. Years later I have had people follow up with me to see how it has gone with him so I always find threads like this interesting when I come to them from that perspective.

I think I will need to reread this thread a few times as there was a lot of information to absorb and so much I don't know/understand. I know that even though we were long time shepherd owners- and owners of a few that were some serious work NOTHING prepared me for life with Beast. I am pretty sure we have failed him on nearly every level (I think I am much like people are suggesting the OP is- under experienced for the level/type of dog). Thanks for putting so much of your knowledge out there folks.


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