# Working vs pet



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

So I’ve been on and off this site since 2015. I’ve learned a lot of valuable information from forum members, but the threads lately seem to be working/sport dogs vs pet dogs. I understand both sides of the coin, but it seems that in every thread people are harping on the value of getting WL pups. What happened to people just wanting a family companion and that being okay? I see working line vs showing lines often recommended to people looking for a pup, and sent to breeders that focus on titling their dogs whether through sport or show. Like a GSD is lessor because they don’t have those lines. It gets frustrating sometimes to see breeders getting shot down because they don’t title their dogs. Is it really that important? To me, temperament and health are far more my concern than whether my pups parents placed in sport, or show, or the word I can’t spell for the life of me (schsomething). 

I have a 3 amazing dogs. Not one of their parents were titled. I no nothing of Lyka’s lineage, but I’m pretty positive is was just a line of crap BYB. Crios seems greatly inbred. But he could put some of the sports dog to shame. Seiran is my first puppy purchase, and the breeder is not a large breeder. They don’t title their dogs. Not because they aren’t capable of doing it, many of their offspring compete in various sports and protection and have won a lot of titles. But what drew me to them was the small number of litters they had, the dogs were and are a part of the family. They aren’t left out in outside kennels. They live in their owners home, and have jobs around the farm. Both breeding pair have excellent ratings in hips, their temperaments are amazing, and they aren’t charging thousands of dollars. They sell their pups based on the amount they put into the pup, so basically enough to cover the bitches feed, the pups feed, and vetting. They make sure the pups are healthy, they chose the pups for the owners based on what they are looking for, and Seiran has been exactly what we wanted in a pup. She has drive, and it’s easily directed. She is also super mellow in doors. She shows no aggression or fear under any circumstances, so’s 100% confident in every way. 

I just wish more of the members would be more open to these type of breeders. Some members refuse to post breeder information because they don’t want to hear all the negativity from other members going on and on about titling and pedigrees. Like if our pups don’t go back 5 generations of titled dogs, they are somehow defective. At least, that’s the way it feels to me.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

The basic idea behind titling (schutzhund, ipo, ipg) is to apply pressure or stress and have a third party evaluate the dog performance. Does it have its flaws? Sure, training can mask problems and some judges are better than others, but is it better than relying on anecdotal evidence that you might hear from those who do not test their dogs?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The reason I choose working line over show line is due to their structure. The German show line dogs mostly have really steep croups and roached backs, which causes them not to be able to move efficiently. 

My working line dog has a marvelous off switch, and is quite happy to chill around the house when I can't work her. A well-bred dog should be able to do that. Unfortunately, some WL dogs are bred for over the top drive, and don't make good family companions.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Nigel said:


> The basic idea behind titling (schutzhund, ipo, ipg) is to apply pressure or stress and have a third party evaluate the dog performance. Does it have its flaws? Sure, training can mask problems and some judges are better than others, but is it better than relying on anecdotal evidence that you might hear from those who do not test their dogs?


I get that, if someone is interested in having a pup perform. But if it’s just for the typical family life, they generally aren’t going to experience the same type of conditions. If I wanted a dog for a specific sport, I’d look into those lines. But when it’s a member asking for information on breeders, and post breeders/litters they are looking at, they are often told it would be a horrible breeder to choose from because they don’t title their dogs. If I want a dog that can handle farm life, and a basic pet companion, I would still be steered towards a breeder that works and titles their dogs. Which in a lot of cases, ends up with the owner choosing a breeder based on the recommendation that only breeders who work and title their dogs are the only ones worthy of looking into, and they get much more dog than they can handle. 

And I’m NOT promoting basic BYB that are in it for money. There are breeders out there that are ethical, spend the money for health testing, know their temperaments well, as well as the temperaments of the parents and grandparents of their breeding pair, and they breed for the love of the breed, within proper guidelines of ethical breeding, with the exception of titling their dogs. 

I have a health and temperament guarantee on Seiran, and a contract that states she must be spayed after her heat cycle once she is 2. They will take her back if we are ever in a situation where we cannot keep her. So I got everything (including papers) that most people recommend in a breeder, they just don’t have titled dogs. 

To each their own, and I would never knock someone who does seek out a breeder with everything including titled parents, or who are into sports or show. I just wish the same curtesy was shown to those who just want a companion, and choose an ethical breeder who may not title their dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nigel said:


> The basic idea behind titling (schutzhund, ipo, ipg) is to apply pressure or stress and have a third party evaluate the dog performance.


I disagree with this. There are 3 phases to IGP (that is soooo hard to say! lol). 

Tracking: This is very obedience based in IGP. But this it to prove the dog has hunt drive. You can't have a lot of pressure in this phase. If you do that, the dog will learn to "lie". This phase is really so much about your dog's ability. 

Obedience: This is to show the dog's ability to follow direction and work with the handler. You will get points off for the dog showing stress. They want to see a happy dog. The new training methods are very positive. Lure, shape, repetition, proof.

Protection: This phase is about pressure. It's about aggression, transitions, secondary obedience, pressure from the helper in the drives and attacks and stick hits to show control. 

It's the system the founder of the breeder set up to ensure the German Shepherd Dog stayed a working dog. It is flawed. Anytime you put humans in the equation and add a trophy, it's flawed. But this is were our SAR dogs and K9's come from.  The working stock of ANY breed are where these dogs come from. Guide dogs, SAR, K9's, drug dogs, tracking dogs, MWD's. The only way to protect the breed and keep it as close to what it should be is thru these sports, IGP, PSA, and now American Schutzhund (if that takes off and is what they want it to be)



Nigel said:


> Sure, training can mask problems and some judges are better than others,


It sure can. The good breeders wash the dogs out in training. They might still title but they don't breed them. My IPO3 dog was retired this weeks. Allergic to GRASS. Has some issues that I don't like in his nerve. Can't be bred. But man....it was a lot of fun getting there. My 11 month old is up next. But we'll see if she's bred or washed. The title is just the proof you did the work. The training is what you want to watch when looking at dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jchrest said:


> So I’ve been on and off this site since 2015. I’ve learned a lot of valuable information from forum members, but the threads lately seem to be working/sport dogs vs pet dogs. I understand both sides of the coin, but it seems that in every thread people are harping on the value of getting WL pups. What happened to people just wanting a family companion and that being okay? I see working line vs showing lines often recommended to people looking for a pup, and sent to breeders that focus on titling their dogs whether through sport or show. Like a GSD is lessor because they don’t have those lines. It gets frustrating sometimes to see breeders getting shot down because they don’t title their dogs. Is it really that important? To me, temperament and health are far more my concern than whether my pups parents placed in sport, or show, or the word I can’t spell for the life of me (schsomething).
> 
> I have a 3 amazing dogs. Not one of their parents were titled. I no nothing of Lyka’s lineage, but I’m pretty positive is was just a line of crap BYB. Crios seems greatly inbred. But he could put some of the sports dog to shame. Seiran is my first puppy purchase, and the breeder is not a large breeder. They don’t title their dogs. Not because they aren’t capable of doing it, many of their offspring compete in various sports and protection and have won a lot of titles. But what drew me to them was the small number of litters they had, the dogs were and are a part of the family. They aren’t left out in outside kennels. They live in their owners home, and have jobs around the farm. Both breeding pair have excellent ratings in hips, their temperaments are amazing, and they aren’t charging thousands of dollars. They sell their pups based on the amount they put into the pup, so basically enough to cover the bitches feed, the pups feed, and vetting. They make sure the pups are healthy, they chose the pups for the owners based on what they are looking for, and Seiran has been exactly what we wanted in a pup. She has drive, and it’s easily directed. She is also super mellow in doors. She shows no aggression or fear under any circumstances, so’s 100% confident in every way.
> 
> I just wish more of the members would be more open to these type of breeders. Some members refuse to post breeder information because they don’t want to hear all the negativity from other members going on and on about titling and pedigrees. Like if our pups don’t go back 5 generations of titled dogs, they are somehow defective. At least, that’s the way it feels to me.


Here is my 2 cents, a nickel for Canadians because we have no cents. 

I worked almost exclusively with BYB crap for a couple of decades. I have seen it all, heard it all, handled it all.
I chose GSD's because I wanted a working dog. I wanted a dog that could be it all, and do it all.
If I wanted a pet I would have gotten a Pomeranian. 
One of the problems with BYB's is that they don't know. They have a dog in front of them who is pretty, good with kids, barks at the mailman and gives kisses. But they don't know what is behind that. They have no clue about genetic disorders and no idea want made her the way she is so combine those genetics with the really handsome male who actually has crap conformation and unstable temperament and you get lord knows what disaster.
Pet owners don't understand correct angulation, they don't get that your "protective" dog is insecure and is going to come unglued one way or another when crap hits the fan.
A very smart man once said "dogs bark for two reasons, scared or bored" and he was dead right. Whatever layers go with that at it's base is one of those two.
Now as much as I adore Shadow and think she is awesome, she is a huge disappointment in so many ways. The way her genetics shook out is she has not enough biddability or focus to ever really learn, she is fearful and although she has huge drive in her case it makes her a hot mess. Nothing useful.
Sabi on the other hand was the epitome of what a good dog should be. She was smart, loyal, courageous. She was protective with great discernment. She adored kids, was solid with other animals, possessed all of the good and none of the bad. She stayed clear headed under pressure and was appropriately aggressive. And she proved it day in, day out for years.
She also had bad hips and DM. And she was WAY to big.
The siblings that I found were garbage. 
If you love your dog, that's awesome. But I for one will never promote the downfall of the breed.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Everyone knows Lyka is a hot mess, and the poster child for why BYB are crap. She’s come a long long way from when I got her. But she will never be stable, and I’ll never let my guard down with her outside the home. 

Crios I know for a fact came from a BYB. I steered many people away from this breeder. They were intentionally breeding and promoting Shepski’s, and stated that their breed canceled out GSD’s typical aggression with the playfulness of a Husky. They did zero heath testing, and I can pretty much tell the “sire” they were saying was bred to their bitch was NOT the sire, but likely the son of the dam. They were crap BYB looking for an easy dollar. 

Both my rescues are poster children for why BYB’s are shunned. Horrible nerves, health problems, behavior problems, Crios is nonstop go go go, and we have to force him to relax. DH didn’t want to deal with another rescue because of this. So we started looking at breeders. 

While looking for a breeder when DH insisted on a pup, we did a ton of research. We landed with the breeder we got Seiran from because the dam and sire were incredibly impressive. They were bullet proof on the farm, and in the home. The breeder used to title their dogs, but are retired, and breed for the love of the breed. They do have a titled breeding pair, but we chose to go with the non titled litter, because we already have one with no off switch, that needs to be worked and worked and worked. The breeder was honest with us, and said the titled pairs offspring showed more aggression and drive (still with stable temperaments) than the non titled pair, and since we had two unstable dogs in the home, the titled litters would be much more prone to picking up negative behaviors from my crap bred BYB dogs. The pair we went with has titled lineage, they just didn’t title the parents because they retired, and wanted to raise the two as companions, with enough drive to work on the farm, but not enough to be hyper focused and full of drive. We watch many many videos of the pair we went with. We watched videos of their offspring that were titled. And when we knew for sure they would be our too choice of breeder, we flew to Washington and stayed a week, going to their place everyday and watching the dogs. They let us “help” with the farm work, so we could see how the dogs worked along side them. All 4 were amazingly obedient, but the pair we went with were more gentle (for lack of a better word) than the titled pair. They bred one last litter (after we got Seiran) from the titled pair, and then retired them and no longer breed the pair. Or cross bred with the other two. 

We waited a little over a year for the litter, and I did do some looking around at other breeders while waiting, and I just kept being pulled back to our original breeder. We spent $1100 on Seiran, and once spayed, will get back $300 of that. We will still show proof of spay, but have no interest in getting money back. We feel like we got way more for our money than we could have ever hoped for. 

These are the ethical breeders I mean. They skip one or two heat cycles, and the now retired pair had 4 litters before being retired. The pair we went with has had 3 litters (including the one we got Seiran from) and will be retired from breeding after one more litter. They do full health testing, and their dogs are awesome poster children for what a good, stable GSD should be. Seiran is so easy it’s almost like she requires no training. I realize it’s just because my two current monsters are just that, monsters who are a constant pain in the butt and need constant training and/or management. 

I put Seiran in a place, and actually forgot I had done it. An hour later, she was still in place, and just eagerly watching what was happening around her. I felt horrible, she didn’t mind one bit.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Personally, I like the clear distinction between the lines. The breeding of any pure bred dog is about maintaining what the breed is supposed to be. Keep whats good about both of them now, and I think the German Shepherd benefits from it. I think that's whats unique about them, its not one or the other. You already have both, work with it.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

When you go to a breeder’s place to see their dogs, they are on their home turf. I don’t think that’s enough, at least for me. I want to know they can handle themselves sanely out and about. I want to know that genetically my dog is not a fruitcake. That they are environmentally sound. That I can turn them loose in a pile of kids. I don’t want a spooky dog. I don’t want a dog that barks at strangers when we are on a walk. I don’t want a dog that’ll go after a kid. I haven’t had to train those behaviors out of my dogs, because they weren’t there in the first place. 

Mine happen to be show dogs, that are dropped into crazy noisy chaotic environments and not only handle it, but enjoy it. I’ve been around many of their close relatives at dog shows, at herding events, at obedience trials. I see how they handle it. Carly has a daughter that is a SAR dog. My vet is always trying to get me to do something with Carly, like being in the program where kids read to dogs at the library, or being a therapy dog at children’s hospital now that she’s missing an eye. He’s in love with that dog, which I think is sweet. 

I’m rambling.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I completely get that, if that is what I intended to do with my dog, I would go to those kind of breeders. But I’m not interested in any of that. I mainly stay at home, and if I do go somewhere (grocery shopping), I wouldn’t take the dogs anyway. 

Lyka I would not trust in public. Certainly not in pet store! But I was okay with that, and the management needed with her, because I am mainly at home. When I wanted to take her hiking, it wasn’t a big deal if she saw another dog, she would perk up, but that’s it. Crios we do take into pet stores, tractor and feed stores, Lowe’s, Home Depot, basically any pet friendly place. He’s great socially. And he loves it. We will do the same with Seiran also. Today will actually be her first time in the pet store because it’s the first time we’ve gone when she’s been fully vaccinated. 

Once we move back to CA, she will only be at the farm, or at the feed store. Left at home for grocery shopping. 

I guess all I’m trying to say are there are ethical breeders out there that breed to standard, are very knowledgeable about the breed, and have titled dogs in the past, been in the fray of all aspects of the breed, but no longer work their dogs in sport.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> When you go to a breeder’s place to see their dogs, they are on their home turf. I don’t think that’s enough, at least for me. I want to know they can handle themselves sanely out and about. I want to know that genetically my dog is not a fruitcake. That they are environmentally sound. That I can turn them loose in a pile of kids. I don’t want a spooky dog. I don’t want a dog that barks at strangers when we are on a walk. I don’t want a dog that’ll go after a kid. I haven’t had to train those behaviors out of my dogs, because they weren’t there in the first place.
> 
> Mine happen to be show dogs, that are dropped into crazy noisy chaotic environments and not only handle it, but enjoy it. I’ve been around many of their close relatives at dog shows, at herding events, at obedience trials. I see how they handle it. Carly has a daughter that is a SAR dog. My vet is always trying to get me to do something with Carly, like being in the program where kids read to dogs at the library, or being a therapy dog at children’s hospital now that she’s missing an eye. He’s in love with that dog, which I think is sweet.
> 
> I’m rambling.


I think your ramble is dead on.  I think there's room in this breed for working/sport/show. Those AKC shows do prove the nerve of the dogs too. The dogs are stacked right on top of one another at an inside show. It's chaos. I can't even handle it.

I think dogs destined for pet homes need to be of the highest quality. Working/show/sport people will work with weaknesses where as pet homes don't have those skills. I hate when people ask for a lesser dog because they "only want a pet"

What I can't/won't condone are breeders that do not work their dogs in some venue to prove that nerve and ability.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My 2 cents: 
Deja is from WLs with a great and strong drive but good off button as well. She basically is my pet dog. I don't do IPO, no titling, no competition but she is in Rally (because she loves it). I do work with her in real life, hence the results. 
The term 'pet dog' is not clear IMO. All my dogs have been pets but I give them what I know they need. The term 'pet' does not mean she has to 'sit on my lap and give kisses all day' (ugh!).
My Whippets were just as much my pets as my GSDs. But my life with a GSD looks completely different than life in the past with Whippets. From Deja I demand a whole lot different skills than from Whippets. I cannot afford casual, sloppy obedience with Deja, compared to the Whippets. I have mentioned in another thread that I was intimidated by the WLs for at least two decades and when I finally took the step to get one, I realized that I missed out on great dogs (pets!) for all these years. I wouldn't want it any other way unless I get too old for the work they need.
A WL dog with stable temperament and good health can be a great pet if you are willing to put the work in, be consistent, strong and... don't panic in the land shark stage .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Totally agree @Wolfy. Both of mine were laying across my legs last night. They are pets first. Many working line breeders I know prefer to put their dogs in pet homes because they are just loved. Sport homes are more likely to wash the puppy out and resell them. Pet homes keep them.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Temperament is the most critical aspect of a dog to me. I don't understand how one can feel secure in selecting a puppy based on the parents in front of you from an untitled pedigree. What if the puppy inherits its behavioral traits from its great grandmother and that particular dog is nothing like the dogs in front of you?

IMO, I think more dogs are dumped in shelters due to temperamental incompatibility than any other reason.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Temperament is the most critical aspect of a dog to me. I don't understand how one can feel secure in selecting a puppy based on the parents in front of you from an untitled pedigree. What if the puppy inherits its behavioral traits from its great grandmother and that particular dog is nothing like the dogs in front of you?
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, I think more dogs are dumped in shelters due to temperamental incompatibility than any other reason.




I agree. I’ve been fortunate with my dogs to actually know so many of their relatives. Russell IS his grandfather. Carly IS exactly like her mother. Scarlet is this crazy mix of her sire and her maternal grandmother. My breeder friends all knew the dogs that I didn’t know, and I love to hear stories about them. I like to hear what traits came from what dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> T
> IMO, I think more dogs are dumped in shelters due to temperamental incompatibility than any other reason.


And because people want instant results and expect Lassie. Another one is the 'animal lovers' who don't see dogs as dogs. 
I had a heck of a time getting people to do their homework and I burnt out because hardly anyone did want to put the time in after I gave them the advice or this, "But he is my baaaaaabyyyyy!". 
The ones who did their part were successful (and so was I in a sense).


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

The best way I think to get a stable dog is to go to a proven breeder or a good rescue.

At this stage of my life, when I choose a puppy, I want their breeders to be professionals, people who are more advanced in the breed than I am. I don't know how a breeder would learn about pedigrees and the dogs behind them unless they are out doing stuff and seeing dogs in person. If I'm paying someone three figures for a puppy, I'd like it to invest it into a breeding program that I believe in, someone who is going to invest some of that money back into titling/training/or showing the dogs and bettering the breed.

My first GSD was mostly good with people, but he was dog-reactive. I worked with a trainer and could manage it, but I didn't take him as many places as I wanted to because it wasn't fun or relaxing. He came from breeders that I would call responsible but not accomplished. I don't think they just wanted to make money. I think they loved the breed. They didn't have tons of litters. They health-tested, had a contract/warranty, dabbled in schutzhund (it was still called that then, I believe) but they didn't have titles on their dogs, (grandparents and back were titled). They were proud of their dogs' pedigrees. I was 17 at the time, and the puppy was a graduation gift from my parents (the best gift I've ever gotten BTW, loved that dog). It was the best breeder I could find for the price my family was willing to pay (I was between jobs at the time, so didn't really have much to contribute). At any rate, my family is not the type to pay more than a couple hundred dollars for a dog, so it's amazing they paid as much as they did. Long story short, my first GSD hated other dogs from the time he was a little puppy, and he never had a bad experience that I knew of. (Though he was great with the other family dogs, a sheltie and Pomeranian as well as the other assorted pets in our house: bunnies, birds, cats, ect). 
I will miss that dog for the rest of my life, and I learned so much from him. I will never regret having him, but I would not buy from that breeder again even if they were still breeding. 

After that, I went many sad years without a GSD as a grad student, living in apartments, then going back to school to change careers ect. When the time finally came to get another GSD, I wanted one that was stable, that I could take anywhere. We're not rich, but we don't spend much money on vacations, cars, electronics, clothes. I was willing to pay what I needed to pay to get a stable, genetically healthy puppy from a reputable breeder, especially since I knew that we were thinking about children in several years. My subsequent GSDs have been great at home and in public---I credit that to good breeding and to a much lesser extent, my own higher level of experience. 

I'm sure there are great dogs from breeders who don't title their stock. I'm sure that some of those dogs could be titled in something and make wonderful pets. I'm just all about the odds. I think someone who works with their dogs, is more likely to know their dogs weakness and strengths, and to work to correct some of the faults. A title (in a perfect world) is also an objective achievement, and is not merely the opinion of the owner. Pet owners don't need dogs who come from titled stock, but a nervy fearful dog from a powerful working breed is a liability. I don't really want to have to manage a dog again if I don't have to. It's not the highest quality of life for anyone.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

When I started off on these forums I wondered the same thing, what are these people always going on about titling and training if I just want a pet, why is it so important? I can tell you that it is not something that can be easily explained on a forum, but I'll try anyways. 

GSDs already have a bad reputation for poor nerves, aggression, poor health, and losing working ability and it's only getting worse. Being one of the most popular breeds around there sure isn't a shortage of them. For that reason I believe people who aren't professionals have no business breeding them. Sure, titling/training a dog is not perfect but the things you learn about that dog while training will teach you more than an average pet owner will learn in a lifetime of owning multiple pets. I've heard the saying just because you've owned and driven a car your whole life does not make you an expert mechanic, same goes for dogs. 

The truth is most puppies in any litter will most likely be sold to pet homes, but the dogs sold to pet homes will never be tested in the same way the working dogs will be. The pet owners likely won't know how their dogs respond to stressful situations, their ability to perform difficult work under stress, or how they recover from stress. Not to mention how their bodies handle the physical stress of high level training. All of the things the GSD was supposed to be bred for. Most of these traits are genetic, so if you have generations of pet dogs never truly being tested being bred and all these underlying issues being passed down, you end up with what we have now. Lots of dogs with bad temperament and bad health, an amazing breed becoming mediocre.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Understand that I am not knocking anyone's pet. Every dog deserves a home with a human who believes they are the best dog ever! And I, of all people, get that sometimes you just hit solid gold. 

But it irks me when people say it's just a pet. A pet above any other needs to be solid, stable, healthy and trustworthy. It is the single most important job ever.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I feel like everybody's already mostly said everything I wanted to say about this. If you never leave your property with your dog there is SO much you don't know about your dog. I know because I do tons of stuff with my dogs.

We recently had our adult daughter and her newborn baby stay with us for a month. Never seen my two youngest dogs near a baby. No idea what would happen. Hoped for the best, gave the dogs a lot of guidance, they were SO good about it. My daughter had a really rough c section with major complications, she had surgical drains and all sorts of stuff going on, she was totally frail and fragile. 

Don't forget that those breeders who title and compete their dogs usually also offer breeder support and stay in contact with most of their homes if not all, and they hear how those dogs are doing in their pet homes. crappy BYB, or puppy mills, or giant commercial crap kennels, do you think they are talking to all their puppy buyers and knowing what they produced? I doubt it. I bought dogs from breeders who know what they are producing, stand by it, are proud of it, and so when I brought my post surgical daughter and her newborn baby into the house it was no problem for my dogs to suddenly learn all new rules--- I let my puppy lay all over me and he is a 70lb moose, well he could not do that to her because he would hurt her so I had to let the dogs know they had to treat her differently. They got it. The tried so hard to be careful of her and the baby. Couldn't have been more proud of them. And i intend to write to both of their breeders to tell them how great they were about the whole thing because they'd want to know and they'll know that for the future of what they produced.

Lastly-- I had no intention of competing at anything when I bought my 4 y/o dog but accidentally got totally hooked on dog sports. he competes in 4 different sports and 3 or 4 different venues within the sport- we have so much fun. I didn't know what I was missing. You never know what you might need or want your dog to do in the future so best be matched with the best partner possible...so if you fall in love with dog sports you might find that your dog also loves and excels at it. Which isn't to say that a BYB dog or a mutt or a rescue can't do sports because they totally can, I've been smoked by them at competitions plenty of times. but the white shepherd rescue who smoked me at rally is a conformation disaster and he looks very unsound and I doubt he'll have half the longevity that my dog will have and he would never have the athleticism to do what my dog does in dock diving. It's a thrill to compete with an athletic, mentally, physically sound dog. I'm super happy that other lady is doing fun stuff with her rescue dog who's a wreck too. My wreck of a rescue would have loved rally if I had found it in his lifetime but he never could have held up to the jumps.

Lastly lastly....I'm giving my money to somebody for a dog. I want to give my money to the most deserving breeder I can find. I don't want to give my money to an irresponsible crap breeder. Because I don't think those people should be breeding dogs so I'm not going to support them.

Lastly lastly lastly sorry guys... I don't have a god parent for my white dog which sucks. My closest two friends who are dog nuts like me have other male dogs he could not live with so I do not have a safe person to leave him to should some unforeseen terrible thing happen to me. I've spoken to his breeder about it, and she is gladly his emergency contact. So I want a super reputable breeder so my dog has a safety net to get himself into another good home should someone take me and my husband out on the motorcycle. Heaven forbid. but I have to have these plans in place so I know my dogs will be okay because I'm nuts like that.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Some members who hold strong opinions on what is “breedworthy” have those opinions because they’ve owned, fostered, worked with, trained, or cared for GSDs that brought them heaps of grief, heartache, expense, stress. It doesn’t mean those dogs were not loved! But time (and the dogs that follow) lend perspective. And shape opinions. 

Lots of things sound “just fine” in theory. But then when you realize what things COULD be.... entire paradigm shifts.

I think there is lots of room under the breed umbrella for different types of dogs. But that does not justify dogs who haven’t been proven to be healthy, mentally sound, and to the breed standard.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As for lines I don't know. I had a rescue from a shelter decades ago I'm pretty sure was a working line but no way to know for certain. One who's definitely a working line. Another rescue who my best guess was maybe 80% white shepherd, 20% lab. And now my white shepherd. Right now I think I may be a connoisseur of German Shepherds and I might just have to get me a WGSL so I can know I've had them all.

Some days I think i love my white dog so much I'll definitely want to get another dog from his breeder, related to him if at all possible. Other days I think I might want another rocket little working line bitch. Other days I think I can't ever deal with another working line. 

Who knows.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I feel like everybody's already mostly said everything I wanted to say about this. If you never leave your property with your dog there is SO much you don't know about your dog. I know because I do tons of stuff with my dogs.


YESSSS. Yes yes yes. 

That’s another huge reason some are ADAMANT about titling. 

The more you compete, the more you realize the cracks and strengths and weaknesses in any dog. Some things you would never see, in a lifetime of living alongside the same animal as a pet.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

For the record I DEFINITELY don't think you have to stick with any certain line to get a great dog. I think there are outstanding breeders producing outstanding dogs that are white shepherds (fewer of these to be found), west german showlines, working lines, American showlines, and I bet there's crosses of lines that are great too.

I've gotten on my soapbox many times that I wish breeders within a "line" would be more open to breeders and dogs of other lines to look for something outside what they have to improve what they have by genetic diversity if nothing else. But I'm not a breeder and most of the breeders don't seem to agree with that so doubt it will happen much if at all.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m not sure I’m being heard here, so I’ll just go on my merry way after this. Lol.

Seiran isn’t from a BYB. I have two rescues that are. I’m aware of what poor breeding causes, and I deal with that on a daily basis. 

Seiran is from an ethical breeder that breeds to GSD standards. They have worked different dogs in different sports for 30+ years, and all their dogs have been titled. They just retired. They know what the breed is capable of, and when I say I want a pet, I mean steady nerved dog, without the over the top drive or temperament, because I would be doing that dog a disservice. 

Whether I leave my property or not doesn’t hold a bearing on my dogs. We have agility setup, they swim, Crios hikes with me in fair weather, and Lyka used to before her hips got the best of her. We work our dogs, just not in an arena full of people that would put me into such a downward spiral it would take weeks to recover from.

I choose a breeder that is very selective, does not sell to anyone interested, and know their dogs temperament, drives, and needs. The litter I bought from were both from working lines that had titled parents, they just were not worked in sports. Farming work takes the same steady nerves, the same even temperament, and a higher energy than a pet that just sits inside all day. That’s what I wanted, I found an amazing breeder that delivered as promised, and does everything to promote a healthy GSD.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jchrest said:


> I understand both sides of the coin,.





Then what difference does it make what other people think ?


SuperG


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> I’m not sure I’m being heard here, so I’ll just go on my merry way after this. Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Jchrest said:


> I’m not sure I’m being heard here, so I’ll just go on my merry way after this. Lol.
> 
> Seiran isn’t from a BYB. I have two rescues that are. I’m aware of what poor breeding causes, and I deal with that on a daily basis.
> 
> ...



I'm going to disagree with you on the farm work and pet. The far majority of ranch/farm dogs I know would make god awful pets for most in town people. I know many many good farm/ranch dogs that are nervy/not good with strangers just so many problems that would make them awful family pets. 

You do agility you do exercise with your dogs and you aren't taking your dogs places. Most people who want a pet want a dog they don't have to do a ton with and can take places or have family/friends come over with no issues or go to family gatherings with no issues. Most people who aren't titling dogs are nothing like the breeder you got Seiran from. You can get good breeders not titling dogs and still working/having a good understanding. But there is already a huge minority of good responsible breeders vs. byb breeders or along those lines. 

Personally I don't think a breeder has to title a dog. But in the working german shepherd breed they really should be doing something with their dogs. People encourage going to titled breeders because is so much easier to find somebody who is working their dogs and knows their dogs than not. There are definitely good breeders out there producing good dogs and not titling the parents and such. But it's just a lot harder to find them. 

I know a person who is working to at least health test her dogs and is super selective about buyers has a contract and all that. But I would not want a dog from her. Because she has no idea what she's doing. She's breeding pet shepherds but she's not realistic about temperament and genetics behind it. I think if she started working her dogs more even just in obedience and such she'd learn a lot more and be more capable. But right now she's going down the route of ending up with dogs with issues, maybe not healthwise but certainly temperament wise.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> > I’m not sure I’m being heard here, so I’ll just go on my merry way after this. Lol.
> ...


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

One thing that becomes very clear working with dogs in public is that they usually perform differently outside of their comfort zones, wether it be their house, farm, ranch, neighborhood walking route, ect. To get a good read on a dog's temperament they must be tested outside of their comfort zone. 
The same farm dogs here that bark and act like big bad guard dogs when anyone or anything comes around home are the same dogs that cower and act submissive when you take them to a different farm or place they aren't familiar with. Not saying all dogs are like this but never know till it's tried. These dog's deserve to be loved and cared for just as much as the more confident ones but is that really a trait that should be passed on? Same reason why a lot people in sport with weaker dogs often only trial at their club field and nowhere else. They are afraid in a new situation with new people, location, and dogs that they will show weakness.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Stress of working/being asked to perform “on the road” also reveals GI problems.

Dogs that have liquid poop on trial day, dogs that HAVE to have water brought from home.... digestive problems are already a problem in this breed, and when you add a legitimately stressful environment plus pressure from work or a trial, a lot of people have an unpleasant surprise. Some dogs won’t eat. There are GSD people who won’t (can’t) enter 2-3 day whole weekend trials because after ONE day of competition, it’s diarrhea city. 

Unpleasant topic, but :shrug: 

Sure, anyone has a general idea of whether their dog can drink out of a lake without nasty after effects, or dogs that do great at home on kibble and scarf the occasional mouth of horse poop.... but work/show/trial far from home can reveal some unpleasant health surprises (weaknesses). 

If there’s a takeaway from the new “pet” minded topics here, besides temperament problems, just look at how many diet and digestive problem threads we have. Huge problem. 

I completely agree with astrovan’s comment above, that there are reasons some people ONLY show/trial on their home field in their own metaphorical backyard.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Jchrest said:


> Whether I leave my property or not doesn’t hold a bearing on my dogs. We have agility setup, they swim, Crios hikes with me in fair weather, and Lyka used to before her hips got the best of her. We work our dogs, *just not in an arena full of people that would put me into such a downward spiral it would take weeks to recover from.*


Although referring to yourself, this is exactly the point many people are trying to make about dogs. I don’t think the comment made about there being so much you don’t know about your dog if you never leave the house was directed towards you specifically - it’s you as in all of us. And just as someone else mentioned, the average pet owner is looking for a healthy, stable, biddable, take anywhere dog.

My dog Keystone has a wonderful temperament and he’s honestly the only one thus far that I’d clone if I could. Based ONLY on his observable temperament at 2yrs old, some could say he was breed worthy... sometime after that I took him to an outdoor music festival, during the finale they released balloons and he went nuts. Since then be it balloons, kites, chem trails (from airplanes), or the big air dancers at car dealerships - he screams his head off. Later, out of curiosity I released him towards a dancer as a “courage test” of sorts because I initially thought it was fear based - he quickly advanced towards it and attempted to take a bite. Anyway, my point being, whether it’s fear, excessive prey drive, obsessive compulsive or just simply being unsound.... without taking him to concerts, beaches, car trips, etc... I may have never known. Is he still an awesome or suitable pet? Absolutely..... but breed worthy? Know what I mean.

What it all boils down to is that titles aren’t everything - but they are tangible, something you can measure..... more than a persons word, or past or hunch... most times stacking the cards in your favor.

Edit: very good point about the stools @WIBackpacker ...I hadn’t thought of that but it’s similar to the dogs we evaluate to be breeders or guide dogs - excessive levels of kennel stress, however it may manisfest, can nix them from the breeding program. 95% of their lives won’t be spent in kennels but it still gives a peek into what they could pass on to their off spring which could then show up in training or worse, work.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> And because people want instant results and expect Lassie. Another one is the 'animal lovers' who don't see dogs as dogs.
> I had a heck of a time getting people to do their homework and I burnt out because hardly anyone did want to put the time in after I gave them the advice or this, "But he is my baaaaaabyyyyy!".
> The ones who did their part were successful (and so was I in a sense).


Lol! I can't tell you how many times people have stopped me and asked for training advice when I have my dogs out. I keep it simple and brief but as soon as you hit the part where their eyes start to glaze over, it's not hard to see just what they have been doing to create the problem in their dog and you know by that look that that is one thing they are going to cling to and not change.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Lol! I can't tell you how many times people have stopped me and asked for training advice when I have my dogs out. I keep it simple and brief but as soon as you hit the part where their eyes start to glaze over, it's not hard to see just what they have been doing to create the problem in their dog and you know by that look that that is one thing they are going to cling to and not change.


:rofl: 

Me out training - 

"I wish my dog behaved like that!!" 
I've been training him for years.
"My dog runs away and won't come back!"

Yup.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I never thought about dogs having diarrhea as a result of stress at events. Mine eat like pigs at the shows, never have diarrhea. It’s not stressful for them. They think dog shows are the best fun ever. I can’t say “dog show” at my house or I have to peel them off the front door. When Scarlet and I went to a show a couple of hours from home this past fall, we stayed at a breeder friend’s house. Scarlet stayed in her boarding kennel, and not on my bed like she usually does here at home. She ate, she went to the show, had a great time, and went Best of Breed. She’s never been boarded, but she didn’t skip a beat. THAT’S the kind of dog I want.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

GSD’s are a working breed, and I understand that. But who dictates what is acceptable work for them? I don’t think I need to put my dog in competition to prove that he/she is capable of working. Some people have a lifestyle that automatically equates to working. Farming is no easy task, and Lyka never works harder than she does on the farm. Crios would love to work on the farm, but by love, I mean feast on the animals there. So he rides with us on the horses, carries out supplies, keeps up with us, and we don’t follow trails. I would love to get Seiran working the farm as well. She hasn’t been tested on it yet, but if she doesn’t have the drive or nerves for it, we have the option of returning her to the breeder, or finding jobs that suit her. I just don’t understand why the title is so important, for me, and many like me that will respect the working aspect of the breed, and work them. But I don’t think I need a title on my dog to prove that she’s a good companion. The breeders take their dogs with them them while they are showing other animals with their grandkids for 4H. They travel with them when they go to auctions for cattle. They are working at the farm, mainly herding, but all respond to the owners immediately. Most of their offspring do have titles. Mine won’t, because I don’t have the nerves and temperament to handle all that goes in to titling a dog. But I don’t think that makes me a bad owner, or doing a disservice to the breed by not competing. 

Seiran did awesome at the pet store. Stayed alert and in a heel, even with a large pit pulling his owner to get to her. She was happy, loved the treats the staff offered (after getting my okay), and I had many people stop us to ask where we got her or what her breed was (black GSD’s are not common in our area). She would sit on command and patiently wait while I talked to the people. It was a test for her, to see if she would stay alert and focused on what I wanted from her in a situation where strangers were involved. I know, she is still very young, and one trip doesn’t dictate what she will be 2 years from now, but I’m beyond happy with what I got from the breeder. 

I’m still not conveying what I mean. I can’t seem to find the right way of explaining what’s going on in my old thinker cap. But I hear more and more lately of “highly reputable breeders” that have titled dogs selling the litters to people who cannot handle that much dog. It may be a dream in the ring, but can’t or won’t settle in the home. Or one purchased for PP that have kids in the home, and the dog shouldn’t have been placed with that family, because the aggression bred into it makes it unsafe for small children. I know not every case is like this, but I am seeing cases like this popping up more and more lately. I got a call today from the shelter asking me to take a 3yr old male that was an owner surrender because the owner had him trained for PP, and was alone with him for the first 2 1/2 years, then married and the wife has two small children that the shepherd cannot be trusted with (snapped and growled at the kids a few times). I said no, because I have my own personal issues going on at the time, but this is becoming more common. 

And correct me if I’m wrong, but Shepherds were originally bred and used as herding dogs, correct? They needed the proper drive and temperament to herd animals, to protect them from predators, and be able to sniff out any stray or lost animals. They needed to be able to work on their own, but be highly trainable and loyal to their owners. 

So somewhere along the lines, people bred more aggression into the lines to use as PP dogs, some preferred the sloped backs and bred to get that (American show lines mainly), and that limited the bred as they aren’t as agile as their German counterparts that don’t have the highly angulated back and legs. I’m sure the origins of the GSD have changed greatly in today’s GSD’s, both through breeding for certain traits, and for certain looks. So why is having a titled sport dog or a show dog being bred pushed into people that don’t need the same temperament and drive that a sports dog has, or a PP dogs has, or a showline has. I don’t need titles to work my dogs, I don’t need a judge or group of judges telling me that what I’m seeing today is for the benefit of the breed. I’ve seen and handled dogs that came from reputable breeders that ended up with weak nerves. I’ve handled some that had serious aggression issues outside the competition. And I’ve seen very well balanced and solid GSD’s come from breeders that work their dogs in real life scenarios that have great temperaments and drive, along with an off switch to settle into home life with children. Why does a GSD need to be publicly judged and trained for scenarios that aren’t going to happen in most working people’s lives. I’d take a pup from a farm raised family that shows amazing temperament and drive, in line with GSD standards, that can work beside and with me, than one that had titled parents and out of control drive, weak temperaments, or cannot settle into a home with children.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jchrest, I think you may be focused on the “title” itself, it’s not. It’s the mountain of work that goes into gaining that title that reveals much about the dog and helps gauge whether the dog is breed worthy or not.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

"More Alike Than You Might Think

How do large-flock herding and the herding dog relate to Schutzhund?

Let me offer a few thoughts on the subject. Think about your Schutzhund protection exercises and the large flock HGH exercises. Up close, the HGH must hold its ground, hold the boundary, against the pressure of hundreds of hungry sheep wanting to get to the good crops on the other side. For this the dog must have the temperament, courage and sound nerves to command the respect of the flock by showing that it can and will use its bite to grip when and where necessary. When challenged or charged by sheep leaving the graze or on the road, the HGH must have the temperament, nerve and courage to fight back and to teach the sheep a lesson with a punishing grip.

The Schutzhund bark and hold requires the dog to find the man in the blind and to hold him there without biting him as long as the man stays in the blind — the HGH herding dog is required to hold the sheep inside the graze without gripping them as long as they stay inside the graze. Also, the Schutzhund escape from the blind requires the dog to bite the helper as soon as the helper moves to escape and to hold the helper as long as he struggles, fights and hits — the HGH herding dog is required to grip the sheep if a sheep tries to leave the graze and to release the sheep as soon as it stops struggling or heads back into the graze. In fact, the Schutzhund escape and attack exercises can all be compared to the duties required by the properly bred and educated large flock HGH herding dog.

Consider Schutzhund obedience during the protection phase. The Schutzhund dog must be under the control of the handler in a high-drive situation and so must the HGH. Yet in both disciplines the dog must perform on its own initiative out of instinct. In both Schutzhund protection and HGH the foundation of obedience is “STAY” and “OUT”. Without them you have no control over the dog in a high drive situation. For control and obedience in a high drive situation, these commands must be obeyed in a high drive environment whether that environment is the protection field or the sheep graze.

Those are some of the similarities. What would the difference be? It seems to me that the main difference between Schutzhund protection and HGH work is in the nature of the work itself. The HGH dog must work independently at a great distance from the shepherd while the Schutzhund dog must work closer to the handler and much more on command."

https://www.german-shepherdherding.com/from-hgh-to-schutzhund/


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Working/trialing a herding dog on someone else’s stock is the equivalent of entering a show or any other competition off of your own property. All the added pressures and insights apply. 

Go out of state, on different terrain, weather, than the dog is used to, on a different breed of sheep, and with a trial set that have never seen your dog. Throw in some adrenaline because a dog earlier rattled them up, it’s a long day, and a lot of strange people are leering at them. 

You will see things there that never ever show up doing chores. And those strengths and weaknesses provide information about the dog. 

Speaking only for myself, I don’t think anyone needs to trial or compete or “prove” a darn thing with their companion dogs. For potential breeding GSDs, i view it as a different matter entirely.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

First as a dog owner you should know your dog better then anyone so you can call him or her whatever you want. As a breeder, well that is different. To me working dog always meant means bringing home a pay check ,saving a life, solving a crime or finding drugs or bombs , service work, farm work etc. But I can see on here where sports and or shows were the dogs succeed in a improving a business or ones life, excelling in a skill is called working. A good dog is a good dog period. Getting a gsd from a reputable breeder increases those risks and shows something can be done with the dog (what ever they compete in) and is proof on paper the dog can zone out the world and sticks to its task without physically or mentally breaking down and actually enjoy and live for the work. This is again no gurantee. The dogs loved going to nose work classes. Max loved working with the sheep with me. They a have a competitive streak in training in obedience. The most awesome nose. I took obedience and nose work classes for a few years. Not much into the competitive end but enjoyed doing for fun. Just going and learning is time consuming and most trials are not local. A lot of life changes and my dogs are where I want them and we take them to many different places. I might try dock diving or use a local dock. Our chihuahua gets nervous when we took him out to a agility lesson he froze up but my daughter did get him to move and do it but he was not having fun so we stopped. He does not like going out period but will tough it out. Topper loves doing agility in the back yard though. So to me that equates to a pet. When paying any high price for animal there needs to be some proof in my opinion to customers that the dog can enjoy doing things out of their comfort zone (home or whatever conditioned to)and some kind of proof that they are sound- physically and mentally. 

There are many real tests in real life situations you can do as a dog owners to learn about your dog -just hopefully there are no real consequences to me that would be the difference. 

The other week I was out walking with my son with the dogs. It was a real hot humid night. To walk through the neighborhood we have to go down a path in the woods and there is no light complete pitch black. Hard to see in front of you. As we were walking there we saw a flash light up ahead go totally dark. We continue walking not seeing anything but knew there was someone else up ahead who seemingly chose not to be seen. It freaked me out. We continued forward and stopped.
I was fumbling with my phone light when we heard a voice saying “you can pass” I screamed so loud my heart beating. My light shown on - a neighbor that we did not know well standing under the trees off the path standing with a cane a few feet away. Dogs were on loose leashes fully alert watching this man - max was eyeballing him eyes locked on. As we walked by the dogs just ignored him. I almost wanted them to loose they crap as they were on leashes but were very well behaved. The man meaning no harm but just really strange freaked us out a bit. I think we should of listened to the dogs as they were not concerned. Still though we chose to walk around the long way in the busy road. We were not walking through the woods again this night. When we got home I was soaked with sweat as it was super hot and we were practically flying to get back Home. Max who is super attentive to me and is aware of my heart skipping a beat was not phased in the slightest. 
I was also away on a vacation with my kids,mom, dad , sister and nephew and had a pet sitter come to the house from a local rescue my kids volunteer in addition to a friend that watched the dogs for the first time and my brother who knows them very well. I had the pet sitter come for a few weeks to hang out with us and the dogs so they can get to know her. She was really great and the dogs got to know her very well. We did many test trials of her walking in with us here and out. Clearly giving the dogs a message that she was okay to come in. The dogs did great I was able to do a big family vacation and not worry about the dogs. Just to most recent stories sharing my happiness in my pets.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it's important to point out that all the most recent "discussions" were not started by working/sport people. It was bashing the working dogs by one person that started the "discussions". I'm sure the point of contention can be easily found by going back thru the threads.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

This may not be entirely relevant, but I think 90% of the dogs I see on the street have issues. Big, small, mixed-breed, pure-breed, poodle, Pomeranian, pit, they're all digging their claws in, pulling on the lead, and barking and snarling at Jupiter. These are pet dogs, mind. How anyone could determine what's breeding, temperament, and training in that mess is beyond me. Meanwhile, he is just walking along. I socialized him and train him. He can go to the pet store, Lowe's, or a park without any issues. He can go to the dog park and is fine with the exception of certain puppies or rabbit dogs who trigger something mean in him.

Anyway, the yapping, snarling, pulling dogs? Pet dogs!


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I think it's important to point out that all the most recent "discussions" were not started by working/sport people. It was bashing the working dogs by one person that started the "discussions". I'm sure the point of contention can be easily found by going back thru the threads.


I wasn’t referring to the forum. Yes, there have been some threads that have popped out in my mind, but 99% of what I’m hearing/seeing is more problem GSD’s coming into rescues and shelters that have pedigrees and a smaller number of titles dogs coming through that have had multiple owners because when one couldn’t handle them, they either didn’t reach out to the breeder or rehomed them to someone they thought could handle the dog, and somehow, someway, they ended up in a rescue or shelter. 

I know I don’t have experience in sport work, and I don’t knock those that do. It looks amazingly fun, and I’ll watch on YouTube, but I can also see the amount of work that goes into these dogs. I don’t shy away from the work, I love working my dogs, I shy away from the people, because me and people are a bad mix. I offend everyone with my lack of filter when I do talk, and when I keep quiet everyone assumes I’m a snooty witch. Really I’m just socially inept and can’t handle the pressure of crowds, strangers, and even a gathering of people I do know. 

But dogs and kids are my thing, the things that keep me from going full hermit. I have a long working history with shelters and rescues in FL, GA, CA, and AZ. I do weekly conference calls with many shelters and a few rescues. I’ve had dogs sent to me because no one else had the time or patience to deal with the issues, or were too afraid of the dog. So yes, my experiences have been with mainly adult dogs that have behavioral problems. Maybe that why I’m having an issue articulating what I’m trying to ask. Whether they come in due to crap BYB genes, or great lineages and have weak nerves, or the owner just couldn’t handle the amount of dog they ended up with, I’m seeing the issues (or hearing via calls) with properly bred dogs almost as much as I’m seeing it with crap BYB’s. My main question, and what I lost focus on replying to others, is why these dogs that are too much for typical owners that dabble in sport, are still being sold to people who have no idea what they are in for. 

The title I’ve been harping on probably just touched on a guilty button I have. Being on the forums makes me backslide and makes me question myself for being so focused on my own inabilities, instead of focusing on Crios to get him in agility classes I know he would excel at, and eventually competition. And I’m afraid I’ll do the same with Seiran. She will always be worked and trained, but am I keeping my dogs from something they might enjoy just because I won’t enjoy it? 

So the thread kinda meandered through both my guilt and honest questions.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jchrest said:


> The title I’ve been harping on probably just touched on a guilty button I have. Being on the forums makes me backslide and makes me question myself for being so focused on my own inabilities, instead of focusing on Crios to get him in agility classes I know he would excel at, and eventually competition. And I’m afraid I’ll do the same with Seiran. She will always be worked and trained, but am I keeping my dogs from something they might enjoy just because I won’t enjoy it?
> 
> So the thread kinda meandered through both my guilt and honest questions.


I wouldn't feel guilty. Both of mine spent more time napping on the deck with me this weekend then anything else they did. They're fine.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> My main question, and what I lost focus on replying to others, is why these dogs that are too much for typical owners that dabble in sport, are still being sold to people who have no idea what they are in for.


Because its not an absolute fact that they are. Does it happen? Sure. Temperament and likes don't always mesh. But there are competition/working dogs living just fine with families and there are bred for pet market dogs that are a nightmare.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dogs do not get out of bed and decide to do a sport. They are just as happy to go play frisbee in the backward. The highlight of my young girl's weekend was watching me wash blueberries to freeze. She never once looked sad. Welll...that's not true. She looked very sad when I didn't give her more. My boy napped in the kitchen behind us with zero interest in the fruit because they don't mooo.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Gsds are a very versatile breed I find the things I like and do my best to make sure they enjoy it also. Learning new things keeps two legged minds fresh and also four legged- whether you compete or not. I have no guilt in this as long as I see what I want to achieve. I found/find all my German shepherds working line, asl and wgsl go with the flow of the house and had no issues with prolonged downtime and enjoy our adventures whether it’s short training stints, finding the kids in woods or store and hikes and swims at various beaches.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Jchrest said:


> the owner just couldn’t handle the amount of dog they ended up with, I’m seeing the issues (or hearing via calls) with properly bred dogs almost as much as I’m seeing it with crap BYB’s. My main question, and what I lost focus on replying to others, is why these dogs that are too much for typical owners that dabble in sport, are still being sold to people who have no idea what they are in for.
> 
> The title I’ve been harping on probably just touched on a guilty button I have. Being on the forums makes me backslide and makes me question myself for being so focused on my own inabilities, instead of focusing on Crios to get him in agility classes I know he would excel at, and eventually competition. And I’m afraid I’ll do the same with Seiran. She will always be worked and trained, but am I keeping my dogs from something they might enjoy just because I won’t enjoy it?
> 
> So the thread kinda meandered through both my guilt and honest questions.


Owning a large powerful working breed in general requires more training, responsibility, and work than many people are willing to put in. A lot of families can't or don't want to provide rules, structure, boundaries, exercise and training--such households I think should stick to lapdogs or toy breeds (if they must own a dog) that can't do much damage even when they're out-of-control. My parents come to mind. Lovely people who have instilled in me a life-long passion for animals...but they can't housetrain their dogs, haven't so much as trained them to sit, and have dropped out of the only obedience class I was able to convince them to attend. They've had great dogs over the years, an assortment of over-indulged toy dogs and an ex-racing greyhound--if they tried to raise a GS puppy (or any working or large energetic breed) it would probably be an absolute nightmare. 

I'm just a pet owner, not some amazing trainer, and I've found GSDs are perfect for me. I don't title or compete with them, even though in an ideal world I would like to. They get plenty of running and outdoor time on our acreage and we go on outings whenever I get the chance. I put in a lot of effort training my puppies and young dogs, and take lots of classes to socialize them with other leashed and controlled dogs.

I think GSDs are for people with dog sense, people who think training is fun, and who want to do things with their dogs, who are responsible enough to realize that they have a powerful breed that needs to be kept under control. I think a lot of people end up with a puppy with unrealistic expectations, without a lot of insight into their own situation, without putting much research into the breed, or the breeder. Some people want a puppy right NOW or a certain color or for cheap or they want the closest most convenient one--all of these things can lead to problems, doesn't mean it can't work out. 

You sound like a wonderful GSD-person. If you think agility classes or competition would be fun--do it. If people think you are quiet and snooty, so be it. Who cares. That's their problem. As a quiet, introverted person myself, I can emphasize with how you feel. At work, I have to go against my nature. When I'm home I just want to do things with my animals and my family. I am a happy hermit. If you don't want to compete, don't! And don't feel guilty. Your dogs don't care. If you have an agility course in your yard, your dogs will love that as much or more than taking a class. I would be willing to bet that my dogs are just as happy exploring the woods as training for a title. They just want to be with me, doing something. If you want to compete, do it for you. Unless you want to improve breeding stock, or establish yourself as a trainer, what's the point of competing or trialing if it's not fun?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

astrovan2487 said:


> One thing that becomes very clear working with dogs in public is that they usually perform differently outside of their comfort zones, wether it be their house, farm, ranch, neighborhood walking route, ect. To get a good read on a dog's temperament they must be tested outside of their comfort zone.
> The same farm dogs here that bark and act like big bad guard dogs when anyone or anything comes around home are the same dogs that cower and act submissive when you take them to a different farm or place they aren't familiar with. Not saying all dogs are like this but never know till it's tried. These dog's deserve to be loved and cared for just as much as the more confident ones but is that really a trait that should be passed on? Same reason why a lot people in sport with weaker dogs often only trial at their club field and nowhere else. They are afraid in a new situation with new people, location, and dogs that they will show weakness.


Yes and to get a neutral other person's opinion on the dog. Because we all fall in love with our dogs and get a little blinded by it which I think is pretty okay so long as you don't let that lead you to make a bad breeding decision.

I've given this example before but I know a local breeder (not this breed) whose stud dog won't retrieve a dumb bell at trial if it is a male judge or if the judge is too close to the dog or whatever all these variables. But they call him such a nice working dog. I disagree! He isn't a nice working dog. There is no trial where the judge is so close and threatening just by watching that there is an excuse for a stable dog not to retrieve a dumb bell. It's a temperament flaw. And I can see similar issues in a lot of her dogs


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've given this example before but I know a local breeder (not this breed) whose stud dog won't retrieve a dumb bell at trial if it is a male judge or if the judge is too close to the dog or whatever all these variables. But they call him such a nice working dog. I disagree! He isn't a nice working dog. There is no trial where the judge is so close and threatening just by watching that there is an excuse for a stable dog not to retrieve a dumb bell. It's a temperament flaw. And I can see similar issues in a lot of her dogs


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

That dog should be retired to the couch.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Thanks all, I’ve learned a lot more about working and titling then I could ever put to use! I fully understand the necessity of breeding stable dogs with good health and temperaments, and that they have to be tested in various areas to determine that. I will never have any intentions to breed, so I don’t see the backend of what a breeder goes through to test and determine what is a solid dog to breed, and what not to breed even when they hit 99% but are missing that 1% to make them undesirable to breed. Makes much more sense now. 

And I will swallow my guilt, and keep trucking with what I have going on for my guys.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> I wasn’t referring to the forum. Yes, there have been some threads that have popped out in my mind, but 99% of what I’m hearing/seeing is more problem GSD’s coming into rescues and shelters that have pedigrees and a smaller number of titles dogs coming through that have had multiple owners because when one couldn’t handle them, they either didn’t reach out to the breeder or rehomed them to someone they thought could handle the dog, and somehow, someway, they ended up in a rescue or shelter.
> 
> I know I don’t have experience in sport work, and I don’t knock those that do. It looks amazingly fun, and I’ll watch on YouTube, but I can also see the amount of work that goes into these dogs. I don’t shy away from the work, I love working my dogs, I shy away from the people, because me and people are a bad mix. I offend everyone with my lack of filter when I do talk, and when I keep quiet everyone assumes I’m a snooty witch. Really I’m just socially inept and can’t handle the pressure of crowds, strangers, and even a gathering of people I do know.
> 
> ...


I don't think dogs need to compete at stuff to have happy lives either. Though I do think my dogs' lives are really enriched by it. But there are plenty of other ways to enrich their lives without dog sports. We do it 100% for fun, and so we don't get bored. I don't have any other motivation. well. I do like pretty ribbons. So there's that. And my husband really wants any excuse to use the RV. I kind of hate campgrounds if I'm honest so if I get to do something cool with my dogs while we're there it makes it a little more worth it.

I know competition dogs whose owners do things that I personally think are ethically unacceptable to get them to perform better. Things I'd never do to my dogs in a million years because if I had to do that to make my dog win it wouldn't even feel like a victory anymore... if we ever win I want it to be because we did the work, had fun doing it, we were prepared, and we did the best of the group that day. No blue ribbon is any fun if we didn't both have fun getting it. 

No dogs DON'T wake up and decide they want to do sports and for me that's one of the reasons why I think the training has to be fun and ethical.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Two things come to my mind here. One is I wish people a lot of luck finding a German Shepherd from any breeder in the local shelters around here. And the last time I checked, although awhile ago, no German Shepherd rescue serviced this area. IMO, there just happens to be some hotspots in this country with excessive dogs, especially purebreds while others are experiencing a shortage of dogs and have been for years. Our shelters have been bringing in dogs from out of state for quite some time. 

The other factor I see that is problematic isn't so much the sport or working line dog but the people operating under a misconception as to what they should expect and are signing up to get on waiting lists. Who here thought they knew what a high drive dog was until they got one? I bet there are a lot of people that thought that on this forum.

I have a medium high drive, super high energy bitch here that would be a dream dog in just about any home. She is ultra biddle, a touch soft and totally focused. If I were looking to rehome her, IMO, there is no home that she would not be a perfect fit. Yet, I suspect in the real world from what people post, they would not be able to handle this dog. I believe it is people's expectations of the breed, a lack of understanding of just what the terminology really means, coupled with a lack of leadership in these homes which are the problem. If it were a matter of watering down a breed, then there should not be a need for family dog trainers.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I know competition dogs whose owners do things that I personally think are ethically unacceptable to get them to perform better. Things I'd never do to my dogs ...
> 
> No dogs DON'T wake up and decide they want to do sports and for me that's one of the reasons why I think the training has to be fun and ethical.


Thank you. This week I made the decision to retire my boy from IPO. Why? The allergy shots he is taking are working pretty well overall but this week I saw a flare up and it was painful watching him struggle down a track that should have been so easy for him. I could give him apoquel and get him thru the season but I chose not to because I don't think that's the best choice for him. So I'm throwing in the towel on nationals with this dog. 

Now, he gets to go do some dock diving, because the one thing he loves more than me is water. He gets to go for long walks in the woods because we won't be spending that time training. He gets to go do agility because I think he will enjoy is. Don't get me wrong. The training was a game to him. Work is Play and Play is Work. But now...the balance will be on the play side. 

These dogs don't care what they do. They just want to do it with their person.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jchrest said:


> Thanks all, I’ve learned a lot more about working and titling then I could ever put to use! I fully understand the necessity of breeding stable dogs with good health and temperaments, and that they have to be tested in various areas to determine that. I will never have any intentions to breed, so I don’t see the backend of what a breeder goes through to test and determine what is a solid dog to breed, and what not to breed even when they hit 99% but are missing that 1% to make them undesirable to breed. Makes much more sense now.
> 
> And I will swallow my guilt, and keep trucking with what I have going on for my guys.


Anyone who loves their dogs and does their best to keep them happy, healthy and whole has nothing to feel guilty about. 
Why on earth would you feel guilty?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Thank you. This week I made the decision to retire my boy from IPO. Why? The allergy shots he is taking are working pretty well overall but this week I saw a flare up and it was painful watching him struggle down a track that should have been so easy for him. I could give him apoquel and get him thru the season but I chose not to because I don't think that's the best choice for him. So I'm throwing in the towel on nationals with this dog.
> 
> Now, he gets to go do some dock diving, because the one thing he loves more than me is water. He gets to go for long walks in the woods because we won't be spending that time training. He gets to go do agility because I think he will enjoy is. Don't get me wrong. The training was a game to him. Work is Play and Play is Work. But now...the balance will be on the play side.
> 
> These dogs don't care what they do. They just want to do it with their person.


It's all good!






Even when you lose your stick because the youngin' isn't sure about water and tries to drown you!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

omg. which river is that? I'm terrified of letting Seger anywhere near a river! He would never come back!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jchrest said:


> I’m still not conveying what I mean. I can’t seem to find the right way of explaining what’s going on in my old thinker cap.


You did fine. Don't confuse the idea that "only titled dogs should be bred" with "all dogs with titles are breed worthy", these are two different things. Certainly don't believe for a minute that a companion dog is "less" because it doesn't have titles. Lots of great dogs go through life without competing. 

Truth be told I think most dogs would be in heaven being raised on farms and ranches as opposed to being in high rises or in the suburbs where they're fenced in, only walked on leash etc. Your dogs are very lucky!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> omg. which river is that? I'm terrified of letting Seger anywhere near a river! He would never come back!


That is the Yioughiogheny River in Little Boston. We have a lot of beautiful trails, boat docks, and rivers here. My oldest (not pictured)would have liked to swim across but there is too much stuff floating underneath the surface and lots of under currents so I don't let them swim too far out.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Dogs do not get out of bed and decide to do a sport. They are just as happy to go play frisbee in the backward. The highlight of my young girl's weekend was watching me wash blueberries to freeze. She never once looked sad. Welll...that's not true. She looked very sad when I didn't give her more. My boy napped in the kitchen behind us with zero interest in the fruit because they don't mooo.


We did a couple very short hikes and picked huckleberries and the dogs were happy just the same. Remi watched my daughter pick n eat a few huckleberries then began doing it himself. Tuke never cared for fruit or veggies, but for whatever reason started eating them as well. We didn’t have to move much as the huckleberry bushes were loaded, however neither dog became restless and were content to find a spot to chill out.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Ha, awesome picture! Lyka eats any fruit or vegetable, we use them as treats because she would rather have that than kibble or commercial treats. 

Crios refuses all, unless they are in my raised beds, and I don’t want him to eat them. Pretty sure he does it just to make me mad! lol


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> These dogs don't care what they do. They just want to do it with their person.


Truer words were never spoken. My dog doesn’t care where he is or what he’s doing as long as he’s with me. 

I had to give Dexter a bath last week, which I often don’t have to do. He’s a fairly clean dog...doesn’t roll in stuff in the grass, jumps over puddles (not kidding). I tried to lead him into the bath tub and he seriously resisted. I then stepped into the tub myself and he jumped in after me. If I went in, he was game. LOL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IllinoisNative said:


> Truer words were never spoken. My dog doesn’t care where he is or what he’s doing as long as he’s with me.
> 
> I had to give Dexter a bath last week, which I often don’t have to do. He’s a fairly clean dog...doesn’t roll in stuff in the grass, jumps over puddles (not kidding). I tried to lead him into the bath tub and he seriously resisted. I then stepped into the tub myself and he jumped in after me. If I went in, he was game. LOL


:rofl: Those Arko genes coming thru.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> :rofl: Those Arko genes coming thru.


Is that what Arko is like? That is so funny! I love genetics. lol


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IllinoisNative said:


> Is that what Arko is like? That is so funny! I love genetics. lol


I'm guessing since the Kona pups seem to do things like this. :grin2:


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I'm guessing since the Kona pups seem to do things like this. :grin2:


Well, you’re right, he is the common denominator. lol


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