# Purely Positive?



## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Pup's second class was today--a puppy kindergarten. I was luring my 10 week old pup into a down but he was also throwing out some unasked for behaviors such as biting and pawing. I was verbally correcting this with "Ak, Ak" noises and the word "wrong"--not loudly or angrily.

The trainer came over and said that I was punishing my pup! She said that purely positive methods don't allow for these kinds of corrections and that all undesirable behavior should be ignored. Which is a great goal, I guess but a trifle unrealistic. She began praising Pup and was promptly nipped in the nose-- which she successfully ignored. I however have to live with the Bitemaster 2011 and while I redirect his biting, control his biting and have been avidly reading about bite inhibition (thank you sticky thread) I have already encountered many situations in which he has to stop biting NOW! and a sharp, sudden exclamation has so far served to loosen his grip.


The trainer also copped to having small dogs that were allowed to jump up on people. I'm not sure that this is the right class for us. She also refers to my boy as shy--while I think of him as reserved--as in typical shepherd. 

I have two senior shepherd crosses. I was a big box store Dog Trainer about eight years ago. Since then I have been very active in Pit Bull rescue and have fostered six puppies. I have never heard of a verbal correction--especially in a neutral tone-being called a punishment. Is this common now? Should I continue in a class which I think has unrealistic expectations.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

The interesting thing about positive puppy training is VERY difficult for us 'newbies' because we need PATIENCE! 

Frankly, who cares if my 10 week old puppy isn't going down exactly right? IT DOESN"T MATTER!

And, frankly, the reason they aren't is cause they just don't get it, or haven't been made to understand it, or would rather do something else........ CAUSE THEY ARE ONLY 10 WEEKS OLD! And that's fine!

For us, for the HUMANS to learn to help our puppies understand (not MAKE them) to have them want to listen (not MAKE them), what to be with us (not MAKE them), want to engage and learn (not MAKE them) is what we go to puppy class for.

Puppy class and dog class should be very little about what the dogs learn. Frankly, it's a whole lot more about TEACHING ME to teach my puppy to want to learn, want to engage, want to listen/learn/be with me. It's all about ME ME ME ME ME.

Cause guess what? When I listen (not the puppy). When I learn (not just the puppy). When I listen (and frankly if the instructor starts say Ak AK Ak Ak and no no no no to ME  then I tend to just get all upset and confused and not learning either! ) When I listen and:


Improve my timing
Use a reward my PUPPY wants
Keep it fun and exciting
Engage WITH my puppy in the learning
Then I no longer am having to use negatives caue my darn puppy has suddenly become BRILLIANT!

Look at this dog, only taught positive with treats/toys:





 
This puppy too, only positive and with a clicker, look at the attitude of the puppy, it's engagement. NO LEASH and yet look at the behaviors!





 
Using corrections is easy for US and short term seems to work.

Positive training is MUCH harder for us and why many people quit to go back to our old habits. Heck, it's much harder to blame our dog and 'make' them behave. Then to blame ourselves cause we need to continue to learn and be better trainers....


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## rgollar (Dec 19, 2010)

I agree with positive training. But In my puppy class we took ak ak was commonly used for when they did not do as ask. And I cant believe any trainer allows jumping on people unless ask to. I would switch trainers personally.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

It's going to depend on who you talk to and what your comfortable with homestly. I use clickers, treats, and toys to train but my dog get an eh eh when they have lost their mind momentarily and I don't see it as punishment either...but thats me


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

I do purely positive training with my girl. It takes sooo much more patience than giving corrections, but makes training a thousand times funner for the both of us!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

PP advocates often refer to almost anything as "punishment" as I have run into that attitude in some classes also. I too used the dreaded word "No" to my dog in class and the instructor tried to make me feel like I had ruined my puppy's character and attitude completely. (he had just grabbed my pant leg and was trying to make off with his prize). As a matter of fact, it didn't really seem to have any terrible, lasting impact on him although he did release my leg from his little alligator jaws.

More seriously, if you are really uncomfortable with the class maybe you should look around for a more suitable class. OTOH, if the class would seem to be good for your pup i.e. socialization and a chance to practice obedience and manners around other puppies, I would stay in it till the end and then look around.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Keeping in mind we are talking about a *10 week puppy*..... my puppies get away with WAY more than my adult dogs....

BTW, real positive training doesn't mean we let our dogs get away with murder....*positive isn't permissive*. It's always interesting cause I know some of the best dog trainers actually prefer teaching NEW people with their first dogs rather than people with lots of the traditional 'old' training methods we all learned growing up with all our other dogs. 

Common Dog Training Mistakes - Whole Dog Journal Article

For the Love of a Dog: Understanding ... - Google Books#

Choosing The Right Dog Trainer

K-9 Solutions Dog Training, Inc.: Some thoughts on dog training


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I think purely positive training is good for the appropriate age. A super young puppy does not need corrections, especially when they have so much to learn and are still bonding with you.

That being said, I don't see why saying something like "Ah-ah" or whatever is an awful thing if the puppy is doing something "bad" like biting me or chewing on a chair leg. I don't think it's appropriate if he's just not understanding a command you have given. But you need some kind of verbal noise that puts across the message "Stop what you are doing right now". Very handy for inappropriate biting, or a poop-eating attempt, or something like that.

I get what MaggieRoseLee is saying, and while I usually agree with her 100% of the time, but in this case I think using a verbal correction to stop dangerous and unwanted behavior is appropriate even at a very young age. Again though, I wouldn't use it when trying to teach a new command, just because the puppy isn't "getting" it.

I hope that makes sense, LOL!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree with the posters who have said that purely positive is really difficult b/c it takes so much patience! However, the results are truly amazing. I am not a purely positive trainer because I haven't successfully trained myself to do it. I've been training for 23 years and learned the old way. But I am working on it right now because I have noticed that the less aversives I use (including eh-eh) the more excited Rafi is about working and the better our bond is and the quicker he learns. He learns best when it's all fun. In fact, if I use too many verbal aversives he become disinterested in learning and will simply lie down and watch me because he senses me getting frustrated. 

For example, today we were at the park. We went to the playground and did agility stuff on the equipment (tunnel, swinging boardwalk, slides, ladders, etc.). Then we walked past a bench. Curious as to what Rafi would do I indicated he should go up onto the bench. He went up onto the seat and then pivoted off the top and jumped off into the snow. I asked him to go up about 5 more times and the second time he walked along the seat and then jumped into the snow. The third time he jumped up onto the back and over the seat and then into the snow. The fourth and fifth times he offered a different variation on the previous routines. Each time I praised the heck out of him and he was happy as could be because everything he was doing was right! Each time he was very happy to offer a different behavior because he kept getting praised. Had I wanted to shape one of those behaviors I might have treated for that one behavior and ignored the others. 

Had I wanted a specific behavior (say walking across the bench) and I had said No! or Wrong! when he had offered the other behaviors I can guarantee that what would have happened is that Rafi would have laid down in the snow and stopped offering any behaviors in an attempt to calm me down. Instead I kept the whole thing positive and let him decide what to do and now we have another fun game/training exercise for the park.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Good_Karma said:


> ..................... in this case I think using a verbal correction to stop dangerous and unwanted behavior is appropriate even at a very young age. Again though, I wouldn't use it when trying to teach a new command, just because the puppy isn't "getting" it.
> 
> I hope that makes sense, LOL!


Actually............ I agree 100% with that! Dangerous and unwanted behaviors, and for attention getting during those behaviors...... I would use a verbal correction. :wub:

But not in any normal training that I was in the middle of teaching......


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Actually............ I agree 100% with that! Dangerous and unwanted behaviors, and for attention getting during those behaviors...... I would use a verbal correction. :wub:
> 
> But not in any normal training that I was in the middle of teaching......


Okay then my record for agreeing with everything you say is still intact.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Common Dog Training Mistakes - Whole Dog Journal Article


This is a great article, I especially like the way she makes the point about management and how important it is:



> A well-implemented positive training program combines *good management, to prevent the dog from having the opportunity to be reinforced for undesirable behavior*, and negative punishment, in which the dog’s inappropriate behavior makes a good thing go away.





> Management plays a vital role in the “positive doesn’t equal permissive” piece of positive training. By removing the positive reinforcement for unwanted behaviors, you prevent your dog from being rewarded by them. This is true whether you’re restraining with a leash to prevent jumping up, crating to stop adolescent house-destruction, clearing tables to manage counter-surfing, putting tempting objects out of reach to avoid chewing, or any of a long list of other management applications.
> 
> Behaviors that aren’t rewarded in some way eventually extinguish, especially if you make it a point to reinforce an alternative and preferably incompatible behavior.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks for all the feedback. I appreciate it. I will try to cut down on my verbal corrections. I should have been clearer in the first place, I wasn't correcting my pup's "down". As mentioned, he's 10 weeks old. I'm really pleased that he can down with a lure in the commotion of pup class. He is the most obedient dog there and I am very happy with him. I was "ak" ing because he was biting and pawing--more so biting and ignoring the lure. Have I mentioned that he's bitey?

It frustrates me that when he nipped the instructor, she can ignore it but if I ignore this behavior at home--my hands and arms will be hamburger. Chewing on me is very rewarding and he would be delighted if I ignored it. He also enjoys chewing the stairs. I've been using the "Ak" to interrupt than I redirect with toys. He is getting so much better and we are making real progress with bite inhibition.

I'm having to eat some crow. I was reading this forum before I got him and I was dismissive of the term "land shark" and the biting threads. I've had mixes and pit-bulls and never had an issue with biting. Bitter Apple has been my friend but I've only ever used it sparingly. Pup is not bothered by Bitter Apple, Bitter Yuck or any deterrent. He is the mouthiest pup that I've ever owned. He is also the smartest. 

I think that I'll stick with the class. I don't get out much and I'm getting set in my ways. It will be good for me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> It frustrates me that when he nipped the instructor, she can ignore it but if I ignore this behavior at home--my hands and arms will be hamburger.


And this specific behavior is one I also can't have and generally I use the methods Cassidy's Mom is proposing to 'train' for this. And that's the MANAGEMENT thing.

I really don't allow my body parts to connect with teeth. IF it happened there would be an immediate redirection (management) to one of the 100's (maybe that's exaggerating ) of tug toys I have all over the place when I have a puppy. 

Basically I try to keep in mind that what THE PUPPY is trying to do is play with me. That's all. PLAY. It hurts. It makes me bleed. I do not like it at all. But, fact of the matter is, to my puppy this is PLAY. And I want my puppy to want to play with me. 

Just without the bloodshed. 

So it's up to ME to learn the best way to manage the puppy and manage the situation so the puppy stops biting me (no fun at all cause I just plain will not 'play' that way) and instead starts bringing me a toy (cause that's a BLAST, fun fun fun and I'll play for ever!).


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Teaching tricks is something that PP certainly does work very well and i also use it there.

How would it work however with a dog lunging at another dog from close range? In that type of situation, it is an entirely different situation and demands a different more fast acting reaction from the handler. I don't think that most folks would think that at least a verbal correction would be too harsh.

It also depends to a very great degree on the dog and it's personality - if you have a dog with a very soft (maybe fearful) attitude then one doesn't need to use any harsh corrections and a voice command would probably work very very well; on the other hand, if you have a very confident, forceful temperamented dog (like our current male), then you might need a little firmer hand to get across to the dog that he/she isnot in charge and there are some things that they must do even if they would prefer not to right at the moment.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

You should checkout Ted Turner's DVD "ABC's of Behavior Shaping: Proactive Behavior Management Seminar." it's old and long but really shed a lot of light on details of PP training. He was one of the originals and has a background in training wild animals as well as dogs. Very eye opening - he says over and over to ignore unwanted behavior (of course this means it can't be self-satisfying either). Michael Ellis is a trainer who advocates ignoring puppy biting because, like Ted, he believes that no reaction will cause the puppy to think "well that didn't work". Obviously, redirecting towards a behavior you can reward is a good thing. And obviously, a behavior that is going to get the pup injured cannot be ignored.

In PP training you don't say a cue for a behavior until the behavior is exactly what you want, taking away that stress of an imperfect down becoming your competition down. Someone coined the phrase "don't name it until you love it." I love that saying!

PP training is all about patience and allowing the pup to work it out without fear of failing. Michael Ellis also has a great DVD on training the sit, down, stand for competition. He feels the order is important. He trains a sit, the down from a stand (not the sit), and stand from a sit by pushing the food towards the pup so he learns to pop the rear end up into the stand instead of luring forward from the sit that then creates a creep. I was really glad I watched these DVDs before I started training Minka. She has got a snappy sit, down and stand.

Another thing that became apparent to me after reading and watching others training in this fashion, is that the sound or word that means "what you just did is not right" is only introduced - 1. once the pup has a good foundation in PP training because the whole foundation is built on the concept that the pup must feel comfortable making a mistake or they will quit trying to figure out what the trainer wants (which results in the pup getting what it wants.) 2. The behavior you are verbally correcting is understood completely by the pup.

It is frustrating when I'm not sure that what I am doing is right, like when Minka had an obsession with my outdoor cats. I could not believe that ignoring her obsessive focus would work, especially since she wouldn't even walk on the leash because she was doing the "strong eye" on them. I tried redirecting, which worked sometimes but she was not particularly food driven plus I'd eventually run out of food when she was really stuck and every step had to be treated. It was either that or dragging her and that was not an option. Sometimes I just picked her up and carried her back to the house until the cats left. Some days I would lock the cats up if they started to follow us, yes, that's what made it really frustrating because the cats liked to follow us. I could have scared the cats off but my feeling was I wanted Minka to get used to the cats and ignore them since eventually that would become a handy outcome. Oh, and another hassle with all of this is I have 60 acres but have to walk her on a leash around the house and barns so she never learns to self-satisfy by actually chasing them. Once we got out in the fields where the cats didn't follow i would remove the leash. She is 9 months old and she is still infatuated with them but she is nice to them and I can call her away from them. I still keep her on leash if the cats are around so we don't backtrack by her figuring out she can chase them. It's a big pain in the a** but it should pay off. As my interactions with her become more interesting (like fetching and tugging) to her the less interesting the cats become.

Anyhow, that was my long story on my experience with PP. I'm glad I did the research and decided that this type of training was worth giving a try. So far I am happy with the results.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I've been in 3 puppy classes and watched many others. I have never seen any kind of corrections used. Like MaggieRoseLee said, they are puppies!


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I think your trainer is a doorknob and 100% positive is not only unatainable, i hate that term. Telling your dog "ack" is perfect. It teaches communication. Your dog will have to learn "yes" and "no" in it's training. That is if you want a trained dog that lives in a real world.

What a perfect time to teach it young and early. "ack" means i'm not doing the right thing, even if they don't quite understand it yet, they will and it will make your communication with your dog that much stronger. 

It's why I've trained my last two in OB without a collar at any point whatsoever, no leash, no nothing buy my voice. The only time they wear collars is for bitework and i love it when everyone else is jerking their dogs on a long, long line to teach the blinds or bark and holds and I just have to sa "ahhh" and they come back and do it again.

It's been reinforced so many times when they were young with little things, when it got to be big things a rewardafter my verbal "no" wasn't an "option" in their mind at that point. 

a trainer that told me I couldn't tell my dog "no" would hear that from me, when they asked for the check.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

blehmannwa said:


> Pup's second class was today--a puppy kindergarten. I was luring my 10 week old pup into a down but he was also throwing out some unasked for behaviors such as biting and pawing. I was verbally correcting this with "Ak, Ak" noises and the word "wrong"--not loudly or angrily.


 I don't think using the verbal corrections are horrible but I doubt they are very meaningful or helping your puppy much either. Definitely there are some purists out there who believe you should never use any more of correction or punishment for anything. It doesn't make them bad trainers, especially not for a puppy class.



blehmannwa said:


> The trainer came over and said that I was punishing my pup! She said that purely positive methods don't allow for these kinds of corrections and that all undesirable behavior should be ignored. Which is a great goal, I guess but a trifle unrealistic. She began praising Pup and was promptly nipped in the nose-- which she successfully ignored. I however have to live with the Bitemaster 2011 and while I redirect his biting, control his biting and have been avidly reading about bite inhibition (thank you sticky thread) I have already encountered many situations in which he has to stop biting NOW! and a sharp, sudden exclamation has so far served to loosen his grip.


 What I would suggest for the biting is that you simply make it more fun for him to bite toys or to get into tugging with you instead. Tugging is something which is a very good tool to have for all sorts of training and it lets the puppy have an outlet for his mouthiness. Your puppy isn't biting to be aggressive, he's biting because that is how puppies play.




blehmannwa said:


> The trainer also copped to having small dogs that were allowed to jump up on people. I'm not sure that this is the right class for us.


 I'm in big trouble if trainers can't allow their dogs to jump on them :help: 

Really though, things like jumping up and getting the furniture are personal preferences and not really a sign that someone is or isn't a good trainer. 



blehmannwa said:


> She also refers to my boy as shy--while I think of him as reserved--as in typical shepherd.


 At 10 weeks, IMO a GSD should not be "reserved". The typical GSD aloofness tends to come with maturity. IME GSD puppies who are already disinterested or cautious/apprehensive of strangers at a young age often end up with stranger related issues as adults. I don't know your puppy so can't say what the case is with him.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

JanaeUlva said:


> 2. The behavior you are verbally correcting is understood completely by the pup.


I probably should clarify this statement for a couple of reasons. First, correction is an incorrect term for what I was trying to express. It would have been better had I called the verbal noise a "non-reward marker" (NRM). Second, not all PP trainers use them. 

They can be a slippery slope in that they can become over used and misused. They need to remain non-intimidating.

Finally, pup could be a misnomer since the range of puppyhood is so broad. I'm not seeing where it would be appropriate in a young pup. I could see using it at the stage where a stay has been taught and the animal is going to move. Or in focused heeling where focus has been taught and now duration is needed. "Ah-ah" kept low and light - don't move or don't look away then reward when the appropriate behavior continues properly for a second or two.

Again, some PP trainers won't use them at all. I do use it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

JanaeUlva said:


> *PP training is all about patience and allowing the pup to work it out without fear of failing. .........*
> 
> Another thing that became apparent to me after reading and watching others training in this fashion, is that the sound or word that means "what you just did is not right" is only introduced - 1. once the pup has a good foundation in PP training *because the whole foundation is built on the concept that the pup must feel comfortable making a mistake or they will quit trying to figure out what the trainer wants (which results in the pup getting what it wants.)* 2. The behavior you are verbally correcting is understood completely by the pup.
> 
> Anyhow, that was my long story on my experience with PP. I'm glad I did the research and decided that *this type of training was worth giving a try.* So far I am happy with the results.


I REALLY think JanaeUlva's entire post is excellent, but I kind of butchered out the highlights that I try to make a basis for most of my current training.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I think the notion that a puppy or dog will "quit" trying behaviors for "fear" of being wrong from a verbal NRM is complete bull. I've have more than enough examples of dogs that will try every behavior they know and throw in a few others never seen just for good measure to try and attain what they want.

If your pup or dog is squashed by a NRM, good luck.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

He is reserved with other dogs. He is overwhelmed with the chasing and wrestling. He's the youngest pup in class. He is very polite and likes people and gladly interacts with all the humans of various ages, races and sizes. He is warming up to a few pups in the class and playtime.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

blehmannwa said:


> He is reserved with other dogs. He is overwhelmed with the chasing and wrestling. He's the youngest pup in class. He is very polite and likes people and gladly interacts with all the humans of various ages, races and sizes. He is warming up to a few pups in the class and playtime.


He should get to playing more and get more confident if he goes to a few more classes.

our dog was only about 12-13 weeks when we took him to his first puppy class and the first week he was "bullied' by a couple of older but smaller pups in the class - a Sheltie and a small terrier of some type. Second week he was acting a little more sure of himself and pretty much holding his own with these two (and the others0. By the third week (as he was also growing) he would put both of the two pups on their back (so much that one of the owners (Sheltie) would move their pup away because Baron would overwhelm him when they played with each other.

So keep encouraging your pup and he should do fine. BTW - as he got older, Baron became a very pushy dominant personality dog, something I would never have guessed that first night.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

crackem said:


> I think the notion that a puppy or dog will "quit" trying behaviors for "fear" of being wrong from a verbal NRM is complete bull. I've have more than enough examples of dogs that will try every behavior they know and throw in a few others never seen just for good measure to try and attain what they want.
> 
> If your pup or dog is squashed by a NRM, good luck.


Do you think there is room in your statement to take into consideration the pups age, the pup/dog's understanding of a positive reward marker and what the NRM is and how it's done?

Just asking, because the term NRM, to me, means certain criteria are being upheld. Again, I do use them just not early on in training.:apple:


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I train them very early in training, pretty much simultaneously with a "yes" marker. They learn very fast what they are and what they mean. Communication is key, I have done the blank stares, the ignoring the behavior, the complete abscence of anything "punishing" and now that I no longer do those, and tell my dogs verbally what i want and what I don't want pretty much simultaneously things are much easier and faster.

I have not found that they quit trying to do things for fear of being wrong. They don't understand that. They do however stop moving when they think their heads are going to get ripped off and they don't really know why. all they know is you said something, they did something and you gave them pain. That they'll shut down to that type of stuff. If you're puppy, no matter what age, is shutting down from a simple "no" "ah" ack" or whatever you use, you've probably got bigger issues.

If anything, teaching a verbal "no you're wrong" makes everything so much clearer. It hasn't caused them to stop doing things. It hasn't made things longer to teach, it hasn't made them less solid in terms of distance and time and doing it with one command from behind walls, face to face or from any other position. 

I think a lot of this stuff comes from a few books, lots of rehashing on the internet and nobody even questioning it. you can't learn dog training that way.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Puppies do receive "punishment" every day, I would suspect, that they are with the mother; at least from the time when they are old enough to annoy her.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

A non-reward marker is a very nice bit of information for a pup to get. I think withholding such information is not a very "positive" way of training. It is the tone that makes all the difference.

Unwanted behaviors such as biting can be handled various ways. That is different from teaching behaviors for obedience.

Yes, mother dogs do correct pups. Dogs are physical creatures and they understand the nature of such a thing.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

blehmannwa said:


> He is reserved with other dogs. He is overwhelmed with the chasing and wrestling. He's the youngest pup in class. He is very polite and likes people and gladly interacts with all the humans of various ages, races and sizes. He is warming up to a few pups in the class and playtime.


 Oh he is reserved with the other puppies! I was thinking you meant the people. 

IME forcing a non-dog social puppy to interact with a group of other puppies when in the name of "socialization" does more harm than good. Herding breeds often view group play as a horrible experience and quickly learn that their owner will be of no help when strange dogs start to make them uncomfortable. This can lead to encouraging the puppy to develop reactive behaviors to try to ward other dogs off. I would encourage you to consider sitting the group play out and worry about socializing him to dogs in a more neutral way (such as just being around them in class and learning to focus on you while other dogs are around). That isn't PC in modern training but there really is no need for your puppy or dog to socialize with strange dogs. Enjoying group play is really not a breed characteristic of GSDs.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

AgileGSD said:


> Oh he is reserved with the other puppies! I was thinking you meant the people.
> 
> IME forcing a non-dog social puppy to interact with a group of other puppies when in the name of "socialization" does more harm than good. Herding breeds often view group play as a horrible experience and quickly learn that their owner will be of no help when strange dogs start to make them uncomfortable. This can lead to encouraging the puppy to develop reactive behaviors to try to ward other dogs off. I would encourage you to consider sitting the group play out and worry about socializing him to dogs in a more neutral way (such as just being around them in class and learning to focus on you while other dogs are around). That isn't PC in modern training but there really is no need for your puppy or dog to socialize with strange dogs. Enjoying group play is really not a breed characteristic of GSDs.


This has proven vey true with my German Shep puppies. I prefer more neutral socialization. I have seen disaster for a GSD pup in these puppy group play things. It can go very badly. A puppy'searly experiences are huge and lasting impressions on the dog can be made. I sit those play sessions out myself.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

However, many GSD puppies do very much enjoy playing with other puppies - I don't think it is a breed thing - more of an individual dog thing as to whether they enjoy being social with other dogs. Mine always did after the first session or two then he very much grew into it.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I really don't care if he plays with the other puppies and I let him just chill out by me. I just want him to be comfortable with other breeds and non-reactive to other dogs and their shenanigans. I'm really happy with him calmly watching the wrestling and chasing while lounging by my feet. He was sort of participating in a chase game and all the other pups followed the leader inside. I called him and he was the only pup to return.

Of course, next week could be completely different.

Thanks


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> Oh he is reserved with the other puppies! I was thinking you meant the people.
> 
> IME forcing a non-dog social puppy to interact with a group of other puppies when in the name of "socialization" does more harm than good. Herding breeds often view group play as a horrible experience and quickly learn that their owner will be of no help when strange dogs start to make them uncomfortable. This can lead to encouraging the puppy to develop reactive behaviors to try to ward other dogs off. I would encourage you to consider sitting the group play out and worry about socializing him to dogs in a more neutral way (such as just being around them in class and learning to focus on you while other dogs are around). That isn't PC in modern training but there really is no need for your puppy or dog to socialize with strange dogs. Enjoying group play is really not a breed characteristic of GSDs.



This is EXACTLY what happened with Niko. He has not gotten over it. He didn't want to play with the other puppies and we were told not to fend off the other puppies when they rushed him, and we were even asked to leave the room during the free play sessions because he was trying to hide behind us. Stupidly we went along with this and Niko now has so much fear of other dogs and is very reactive when they get close to him.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

What did the other dogs do to him to make him so reactive?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

codmaster said:


> What did the other dogs do to him to make him so reactive?


Assuming this question is for me. As best I can remember, there were three lab puppies who all ran at him at the same time. My husband and I were seated in bench style seats. Niko tried to get behind our legs, tried to get up on the bench, barked at the puppies in a pretty vicious manner for such a young puppy, and then gave up and let them climb on him. Then he started barking at them again, and they took off to find someone more fun to play with. 

After that, we tried letting Niko play in the small dog play group instead, and he still did not want anything to do with any puppy. The little dogs mostly let him alone after he barked at them to warn them off. 

The last resort was to have my husband and I leave the room during the play session. What happened behind closed doors, I cannot be positive of, but the trainers said that Niko just sat at our bench and did not interact with the puppies at all unless one got too close, and then he barked at them.

This happened week after week... for the entire 8 week class.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Yea, the question was for you! 

That sounds kind of strange for him to keep reacting like that to the same puppies week after week - poor little guy. He really must have been frieghtened by the other puppies.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Yea, the question was for you!
> 
> That sounds kind of strange for him to keep reacting like that to the same puppies week after week - poor little guy. He really must have been frieghtened by the other puppies.


I know it was crazy. We asked the trainers what we should do and they recommended day care (also a service they provided). So we did that for one day a week for about seven or eight weeks. Same thing. Barking, avoidance, or just sitting there waiting for it to be over, in spite of the facility trying him out with multiple dogs.

I can't be certain that this is what caused his dog reactivity, but I just can really identify with what AgileGSD wrote and it really rings true for me.

I have been in touch with Niko's breeder and his litter mate (also a male and the only other pup in the litter) is not at all like this. So that leads me to think that this is not a matter of poor genetic temperament.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Good_Karma said:


> This is EXACTLY what happened with Niko. He has not gotten over it. He didn't want to play with the other puppies and we were told not to fend off the other puppies when they rushed him, and we were even asked to leave the room during the free play sessions because he was trying to hide behind us. Stupidly we went along with this and Niko now has so much fear of other dogs and is very reactive when they get close to him.


If he was that scared of the other puppies, he might have ended up just as reactive even if he had never been in the play group.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Are there any friendly dogs that you might know that you can socialize your pup with? That might be able to get him to relax with other dogs which would be handy for those times, i.e. vets office, when he must be close to other dogs.

One other thing - we met a couple of our dogs littermates when they were about 1-2 yo. What a big difference in personality and temperament! Our dog is extremely self confident and very pushy and he is also very outgoing and friendly. His brother was very calm and very laid back and mellow, almost dull.
His sister was sort of similar but even a little shy with strangers and new places. I have no idea where Baron got his over the top personality. So it could be that this episode was not the only thing impacting his personality, maybe not even the major factor.(might be, of course).


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

crackem said:


> I think a lot of this stuff comes from a few books, lots of rehashing on the internet and nobody even questioning it. you can't learn dog training that way.


I had the same thoughts, mainly when dealing with Minka's cat obsession. There was no way to feed and/or redirect for a half hour long walk with the cats tagging along behind me. The PP techniques I read about were unrealistic in this situation and using an NRM was totally ineffective too. The stimulus was much to strong.

However, I really wanted to give the positive training a chance so I had to resort to other strategies, mainly environmental management - keep the cats away when trying to play with the puppy and teaching Minka to interact with the cats calmly by rewarding her with a really high value treat when she didn't try to wrestle them. OK that's kind of PP now that I've written it out.

Even though it was a time consuming and frustrating solution, I am OK with it because it worked. And I am under no illusions that this will be the only time I run into a situation that is not easily answered with PP and NRMs. 

Thanks for your input.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

It's fun trying things out from bits and pieces you've picked up and try something new. you learn a lot about yourself, your dogs, and how they tick.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Chicagocanine said:


> If he was that scared of the other puppies, he might have ended up just as reactive even if he had never been in the play group.



Or had he been socialized to them in a way they were seen as neutral and non-threatening, he may have learned not to pay any attention to other dogs and that his owner was much more interesting than them. Letting overly friendly, oblivious puppies repeatedly scare another puppy in class isn't good for any of the dogs involved. It isn't good for the overly friendly puppies who are learning to be rude and invasive to other dogs, ignoring all signals that the other dog wants to be left alone. These dogs also tend to be become overly interested in other dogs, making it hard for their owner to get their attention and free for all play only encourages that. It certainly isn't any sort of good "socialization" for the puppy who is afraid. Socialization implies the puppy is being exposed to people, places and things in a manner which increases their confidence and ability to be a well rounded dog. Instead such puppies are learning from an early age that he has a good reason to be reactive to other dogs (because telling them politely doesn't work) and that they can't count on their owners to protect them. 

The best dog I have right now is the one I raised without group play with random dogs. She was allowed very limited and controlled play with a few same age puppies when she was young but it was maybe 5 minutes at a time with lots of recalls back to me from the group. And the play was stopped as soon as any of the puppies stopped having a good time. Unfortunately that is usually not the situation with most puppy class play, where puppies are turned loose to play without any further owner interaction and owners are encouraged to let the puppies work things out between themselves.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks for all the convo about puppy class. I'm going to keep attending but I will not push Pup past his comfort zone with other pups. One of my closest friends is getting an Irish Wolfhound pup next week, a girl. We'll have lots of play sessions with her.

Kind of reminds me of when my son was little, I told him who his friends were. My friend had boys his age thus they were all friends.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Are there any friendly dogs that you might know that you can socialize your pup with? That might be able to get him to relax with other dogs which would be handy for those times, i.e. vets office, when he must be close to other dogs.
> 
> One other thing - we met a couple of our dogs littermates when they were about 1-2 yo. What a big difference in personality and temperament! Our dog is extremely self confident and very pushy and he is also very outgoing and friendly. His brother was very calm and very laid back and mellow, almost dull.
> His sister was sort of similar but even a little shy with strangers and new places. I have no idea where Baron got his over the top personality. So it could be that this episode was not the only thing impacting his personality, maybe not even the major factor.(might be, of course).


You're right, there's no way to know (without asking Niko  ) what is the root cause of his fear today. It could be a combination of everything. BUT, I believe that had we kept him out of the free play sessions and instead limited his puppy interaction to the one or two dogs he has met that he felt relaxed enough to play with, then perhaps today he would just ignore other dogs instead of trying to scare them away. 

(It was pretty cute, in that class we sat next to a woman with a mini schnauzer (sp??) named Fritzie who kept trying to hump Niko's tail. Apparently Niko liked that because he would kind of play bow a bit and paw at the little guy. But Niko was too big to really let them play without running the danger of Fritzie getting hurt).

And no we really do not know anyone with a dog that would work for Niko. I had high hopes that because a family member just bought Niko's 10 week old half brother from a recent litter, maybe Niko could play with the puppy. But I've been told that would be a bad idea, in case Niko freaks out and scares the puppy, so we're not going to do this.

Right now all we're doing is keeping our distance from other dogs and rewarding looks at the other dogs without reactions (the LAT game). When we go to the vet, they know his issue and I always check out the waiting room before entering.

Sorry, OP for the hijack!


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

No need to apologize! Thanks for sharing your experience. When I originally posted I was so upset about being accused of "punishing" a 10 week old puppy that I could hardly think. All these comments have given me a new perspective and I feel much better and am able to laugh.

I also realized another factor in the trainer's critique. I got my pup from a breeder that's well known for its training philosophy which includes leash pops and physical corrections. The trainer was looking right at me when she said that "prong collars are instruments of torture". I think that she thinks that I'm gleefully popping away and practicing hitting my dog. I'm far more positive. I don't think that I've ever "popped" a leash in my life.

I have been doing too much verbal correction so that's a valuable thing to have been pointed out to me.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

AgileGSD said:


> I would encourage you to consider sitting the group play out and worry about socializing him to dogs in a more neutral way (such as just being around them in class and learning to focus on you while other dogs are around). That isn't PC in modern training but there really is no need for your puppy or dog to socialize with strange dogs. Enjoying group play is really not a breed characteristic of GSDs.


I agree. I have had GSD that were fine during puppy playtime and others that hated it. The ones that didn't care for playing with other puppies I just removed from the class during this time. My dogs don't need to play with dogs outside their pack at any time and this very much goes against their nature when adults. No point in forcing it when puppies.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

blehmannwa said:


> ........The trainer was looking right at me when she said that "prong collars are instruments of torture". I think that she thinks that I'm gleefully popping away and practicing hitting my dog. I'm far more positive. I don't think that I've ever "popped" a leash in my life.


Find another trainer to work with!! :thumbsdown:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

"prong collars are instruments of torture" - A real intelligent trainer no doubt!

Wonder what she thinks of a slip collar? 
They can be a lot harder on a dogs neck than a properly fitted prong.

Ask her what she thinks of an e-collar.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I was thinking of wearing lots of black leather and carrying a riding crop to the next class...maybe studded gloves.

The trainer is a sweet lady with little dogs. I'll take what I can from the class.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Heh! Heh!


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

blehmannwa said:


> I was thinking of wearing lots of black leather and carrying a riding crop to the next class...maybe studded gloves.
> 
> The trainer is a sweet lady with little dogs. I'll take what I can from the class.


I love it! Reminds me of my Harley gear hehehe and my tattoos! Ha!

But seriously, you have a good attitude - take from it what you can. As you know, all pups/dogs are different and you need to step in when the puppies are making your pup uncomfortable. Take him outside for frequent breaks.

I told a story earlier in this thread about a puppy soc class when Minka was like 3-4 months somewhere around there in age. Anyhow the instructor wanted to have a pass-the-puppy circle, where the puppies were forced to go from one person to another while the owners sat on the floor. Literally, passed from one person to the next! I'm not making this up! I politely said I would sit that out. Minka is a bold girl and probably would have been fine however I do not think a pup should be forced to go to strangers. And what would happen if someone inadvertently hurt a pup? Gee sorry . . . 

When one pup, a big Chesapeake male, started aggressively object guarding I pulled her out, because of that and an owner who spaced out and opened the gate and just let Minka out. Luckily I watched her closely all the time to make sure she was playing nicely, that owners were not trying to get her to "down" or other puppies were not doing overly dominate behavior. Yes all this was going on yet the instructor would soap-box her dislike for dog parks because the owners don't pay attention . . . Ummmmm hello!? So yeah I quit that class early but we got some good socialization out of it before we left.

Right now my beginning agility class is more about working on Minka's focus than the agility. She is fearless on the obstacles so we have fun, but my concentration is on gaining better focus and duration of focus from Minka. Hopefully the next agility class will be more about agility techniques because the focus is there.

Good luck!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I kind of liked the "pass around' when we were in little puppy class. As long as I was there and could see how the other folks treated Baron (they were about the same age 3-4 months); it was a great thing and probably helped contribute to his very outgoing friendly attitude now to most everything. It could also help the very often seen SA that I see in about half or more of the GSD's in the all GSD class that I am in meeting every Saturday.

I don't see how it could hurt a normal puppy to have his/her leash given to another friendly person to walk around and maybe be petted and fussed over a little.

If your pup has temperament issues, then I could see why people might not want to do this if it stresses your puppy too much.

Little GSD puppies of 3/4 months old, (like all puppies of that age) should (at least in my opinion) be very friendly, bold, and outgoing willing to go running up to friendly people of all sorts. Time to get their "aloofness" as they get to be an adult.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I kind of liked the "pass around' when we were in little puppy class. . .
> 
> I don't see how it could hurt a normal puppy to have his/her leash given to another friendly person to walk around and maybe be petted and fussed over . . .


This pass-around was not on leashes. It was people sitting on the floor and physically restraining them, then using their hands to handover/pass on to the next person - as Pat McConnell might say, "in a very primate fashion" which is not the best way to socialize pups to humans. Maybe sitting down and allowing the pups to approach the people on their own time, that would be fine. "Force" is not appropriate.

I wouldn't even want someone walking my pup on a leash either, for that matter. I'm just picky with how people interact with my puppies. Oh, and my pup is very bold, however I still don't like the pass-around technique.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JanaeUlva said:


> This pass-around was not on leashes. It was people sitting on the floor and physically restraining them, then using their hands to handover/pass on to the next person - as Pat McConnell might say, "in a very primate fashion" which is not the best way to socialize pups to humans. Maybe sitting down and allowing the pups to approach the people on their own time, that would be fine. "Force" is not appropriate.
> 
> I wouldn't even want someone walking my pup on a leash either, for that matter. I'm just picky with how people interact with my puppies.


Naturally, one wouldn't expect anybody to use inappropriate "force" with puppies of that age. Is that what they did in your class? If that was the case, no wonder you would not let them include your pup.

I wouldn't see a problem with letting people pet and handle, etc. my pup at that age - as long as I was there to watch them.

I would expect that most puppies would love having people fuss over them and also with new people and pups to play with.

My pup has always had a very confident, outgoing personality from when we took him home at 7 weeks.

If he was shy or fearful or maybe not so confident, then I probably would be a lot more cautious with letting him meet new people and dogs.


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