# help for GSD friendly landscaping????



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

So my backyard is pure dirt. And a moderate slope. It's not bad when it's dry, but in the winter it's HORRIBLE. my kitchen floors are basically brown half the year from the mud. 










Any ideas on good hardy ground covering? I was thinking mulch but I'm scared with the slope it would just slide down. Plus Berlin likes to dig. 

So I was thinking maybe just a really hardy ground cover plant that could stand up to high foot traffic? I live in Colorado, zone 5, very sunny backyard that gets little shade, it is clay. 

Or I've even heard of people recycling old concrete blocks left over from ripping up patios and such to do something like this.










Do you think this would be feasible to do over the whole back yard? I understand it obviously would not look as nice as getting true flagstone or what not meant for ground cover and paths, but it needs to be cheap, something I can largely do myself. I know it will be labor intensive, I just can't afford paying a landscaper since I'm having my entire basement remodeled. I need to stick to a 500$ budget, max

Thank you for any help!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I feel your pain. I just watch any grass that was growing getting uprooted when they run.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

I would do grass with a rock border around the fence.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My dog yard is long and narrow, and I'm seriously considering having it dug up, and some sort of smooth pea gravel put down. Our landscaping/yard guy said he'd give us an estimate. The yard had grass when I had the Dobes, but the GSDs have managed to kill it TWICE (re-sodded it last year). ARGH. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Nope. Happy healthy playing GSDs and nice landscaping do not go together. I had a magnificent yard and garden and three old dogs. Now I have a torn up mud pit and two young dogs.

Mulch is the best bet. Nobody cares about mulch. Lots and lots of mulch.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

How much of a slope is it? From the picture it looks minimal --The problem with mulch is it soaks up wetness and the clay underneath still gets wet. Mulch has to be constantly replaced.

Right now I am using #7 driveway gravel in the run area and it seems to be holding up pretty well to all the rain we have had. A lot of rain. Though poop likes to stick to it and it is not as easy to scoop on the gravel. But the dog has picked one area which makes it more liveable. At least he does NOT dig in it and it seems to be pretty good about not migrating. If you use gravel the best thing (which I did not do) is to get some cheap crusher run first and pound it down as a base for the other gravel. I did not choose pea gravel due to the fact that it moves around so easily.

The playground mulch chips worked reasonably well for me for an entire year but then started mixing with the dirt below and became a big mess. As far as mulches go.....cypress playground chips do NOT hold water as bad as the other mulches and dry out quickly but tend to move downhill.

On my actual hill I use shredded mulch and it holds a hill a lot better but it also decomposes fairly quickly. If you have big trees near you, leaves and debris show up a lot more in the gravel than in the mulch. I will try to get a picture of the gravel today. I priced out concrete and it was so expensive. Eventually I will do pavers but not in the area where the dog actually runs and plays fetch. The fetch area will always be mulch or gravel.

EDIT-the short version. Shredded mulch is good on a hill but needs to be replaced fairly frequently, more if you have a lot of rain. We have a lot of rain (like 50-60 inches a year) and maybe you do not. Gravel does not break down but smooth gravels migrate downhill more. Spreading mulch is not so hard. Spreading gravel is hard work. You can get both delivered by the truckload. I do not know how big your yard is but my dog area is about 1100 SF and $500 is cutting it close if you get it down to a 4 inch depth.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Question for those with pea gravel...I have it in my driveway and I motice that it's dusty? Anyone else have that problem?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Just a word of caution on flagstone/cement idea, both can have very sharp edges in places. Even after you position the stones/cement pieces, things like rain and frost heave can expose those edges.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

There are numerous types of artificial turf for dogs....

Anyone ever use K9 artificial turf for Dogs? - Pets Forum - GardenWeb


Scroll down a bit for pictures.

Never used it or seen it used but it looks like a possibility....I would think properly anchoring it would be paramount.


SuperG


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## K9POPPY (Mar 6, 2014)

Think pine needles, replace as necessary- Bob


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hubs is a landscaper and small areas + winter dormancy + active GSDs = mud pits.  

Our grass had been holding up well but this winter was a bit too cold and too long for the grass we had and we're waiting to see if it comes back....

We put down a sod rated for 'high traffic', (zone 7 Tif Grand, but it won't work in zone 5, too cold, but there should be a high traffic grass for your zone too) used pea gravel in the high impact zones such as right in front of the stairs of the deck.

With a $500 budget ...... I'm thinking Pea gravel in the areas they tend to 'funnel' which for your yard looks like going on and off the deck. Dig out some of the soil in the landing area in front of the deck steps to create a 'cup', put down weed block, install some landscape timbers to help hold the weed block down, then put the pea gravel in. 

If you have a pick up truck to tote the materials like mulch/gravel try to buy in bulk if you can too.

In the center of the yard the least expensive would be to put down some kind of cover, mulch or pine straw (if they have that in CO?) . As Jocoyn mentions it will break down over time so I'd go with the least expensive dog safe ground cover and refresh it every month two until you can budget for professional landscaping. I really like pine straw as it holds up surprisingly well for what it is, is softer and won't splinter or hurt paw pads during play and usually not expensive.

If you have any money left over put down some sod along the fence line and maybe build some raised flower beds with a small decorative border fence around the beds. This will give your yard a 'landscaped' look at a lower cost if you want.

Find some largish rocks/granite lying around and place them in strategic places to give a natural feel and also to 'direct' dog traffic away from areas you want to preserve.

So the look would be sort of a play yard for the dogs with a safe, soft ground covering, natural looking material mostly in the center of the yard, a bit of green and flowers just around the edges of the yard where the dogs don't travel/run as much to perk it up if you want. 

I'll take some pictures of our yard to help give you some ideas.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Some ideas on materials.....stones, pavers, river rock, pine straw.....

First Pic shows some granite rocks that hubs dug up lying around on job sites, road sides and behind the house. Using this he created a raised bed. We also installed a small border fence, very inexpensive at home depot or lowes. The ground cover in pic one is small 'river rock'. It's round and therefore safer for the paws and can be purchased by the bag or in bulk. 

Second pic shows a river rock path bordered by perennials with pine straw, backed by another granite stone.

Third pic shows different materials you can use, pine straw cover, weathered paver border, small granite stones, large river rock and ground cover plants. All are inexpensive but when used like this is attractive and dog safe.

Fourth picture another of the raised annual bed with the border fence.

(The grass in the pics is zoysia which hubs likes to use in shady areas, but it's a southern grass)


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Gwen, I love your rocks! This is the style of landscaping that I do in my gardens. My DH is so sweet, and will bring home large rocks for me, awww. Lol! Anubis, I want to do my pathways just like the picture you posted with the reclaimed cement. I'd like the spendy flagstone instead...but that'll work, lol. 

I'm in a zone 5 too, and I'm trying to establish white clover instead of grass, where I have bare patches. It's tougher than grass, doesn't need as much water, and holds up to urine better. I know clay soil is a pain, just by the fact that it takes so long for the water to seep into it. The combo of dog feet and wet soil is quite a challenge for anything - I'm in a swampy area, and I still have standing water in my back yard right now, so any racing around means an instant muddy hole.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

My Great Aunt used to love 'rock gardens', remember those?  Well done they are very pretty. We also have a waterfall and small gold fish pond that's made of rocks like that. We're still coming out of winter hibernation so it's still under cover for fishy protection!

The clover is an interesting idea, how well does it hold up to traffic? The clover I'm familiar with has very tender leaves.

Also, for DIY you can buy molds, using your own concrete that you can tint pour and make your own flag stones. Hubs just did that for a job where they wanted a certain color of stepping stones, he made it using tint and molds that he created. Turned out great and there's many different tint colors you can buy.

May be too time consuming for large areas though.....I'm thinking more of a pathway use....



Blanketback said:


> Gwen, I love your rocks! This is the style of landscaping that I do in my gardens. My DH is so sweet, and will bring home large rocks for me, awww. Lol! Anubis, I want to do my pathways just like the picture you posted with the reclaimed cement. I'd like the spendy flagstone instead...but that'll work, lol.
> 
> I'm in a zone 5 too, and I'm trying to establish white clover instead of grass, where I have bare patches. It's tougher than grass, doesn't need as much water, and holds up to urine better. I know clay soil is a pain, just by the fact that it takes so long for the water to seep into it. The combo of dog feet and wet soil is quite a challenge for anything - I'm in a swampy area, and I still have standing water in my back yard right now, so any racing around means an instant muddy hole.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

This is what I did with my side yard - the back door is to the left in this picture. Was all grass for the first 2 years I lived in the house. The dogs would track in the mud. 

It's tumbled blue stone, easy to work with. No more mud! (please excuse the missing garage window, those were out for painting)









Cost about $350 for the materials and another $65 to have the truck bring the pallet of stone to my driveway. The patio is 10' wide by 25' long with the little garden in the middle. This year I have a nicer fence but last year we had a puppy who ate plants. 

Not something you can get at a home depot or lowes. You'll have to look for a place like this one that I found in a google search of landscape materiels
Welcome to Colorado Materials Inc.

These places are used to dealing with 'garden ladies' who know how to DIY. If you sound like you have no idea what you're doing, they might try to sell you sand for under layment but you don't need it.

********don't just buy a pallet. Make them repack it - tell them you don't want pieces that are too big to handle. They put weird pieces you don't want in the middle and I've heard stores about less than reputable places putting buckets of gravel & other crap in the middle to get the weight. 

If you want to plant something that looks nice, hit me up. I am one of those garden ladies and I've been gardening with shepherds in a small yard all my life. I can give you some ideas for the space against the house or in the middle.

When I look at your picture, I see paths. The dogs' run patterns in where they've killed the grass.

You want to cover those paths with hard surface. Peagravel is a mess, it'll get all up the stairs and on the deck and that stuff HURTS like LEGO when you step on it. Once you've put it down, you can't ever get rid of it. Sand works better, the dirt will absorb it over time and it just falls off the dog when they dry.

If you wanted to garden, maybe have a feature or something, you've got to put a fence around it. That patch of grass left standing in the middle would be where I'd put the garden. 

Raise up the bed a bit. 6" of rock with a short fence and you'll only have to correct an adult a couple times not to go in that spot. 

Also remember, if they can't go around it, they'll go through it!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I was looking up zone 5 sod and I came across this! LOL!



> *One of the most commonly asked questions in the grassing industry concerns finding a turf grass that can survive daily canine routines.* Dogs that are allowed to run freely in a lawn area, often end up destroying grass lawns. This is done by high traffic, urine spotting, and digging holes


 More info on dog tough grasses link here: Solutions To Dog Urine &amp Animal Dog Damage In Lawn Grass


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ahh and you did the raised beds around the edge of the yard with a border fence too. That was the extra touch I was mentioning as well.

P.S. that's why I like small river rock for path ways, rather then pea gravel, it's not as messy and more stable. We've been using it for years with little trouble, but it's got brick borders to hold it in as well. 

Personally I wouldn't want that much hard surface if it's in an area my dogs run and play though. I was thinking the same thing about flagstones too, that hard surface may be hard on joints. 




SunCzarina said:


> This is what I did with my side yard - the back door is to the left in this picture. Was all grass for the first 2 years I lived in the house. The dogs would track in the mud.
> 
> It's tumbled blue stone, easy to work with. No more mud! (please excuse the missing garage window, those were out for painting)
> 
> ...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh yeah, it's so true! It's almost like if you want a nice lawn with dogs in a zone 5, you have to move every fall, lol! I'm very familiar with a dirt yard, and once it packs down hard it's awful. Reseeding makes the birds happy though  Clover is tender, but it grows like a weed, ha ha. We have big patches in our lawn and I love it.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

LOL nothing stands up to Roto Tiller Foot and his ball.

Grass in May (I reseed every year)









Grass in September









Hard surface always looks the same. I like to stick my plants in pots the dogs can't knock over. Then rotate the pots around as the plants are in season.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Free option - get free wood chips from tree trimming companies who will also deliver for free. Lay it down about 6 inches to 1 ft, and prob more at the bottom of slope. It can help you level the slope (don't know how steep it is) as it breaks down - which I like for my slight slopes and holes. It also keeps out the weeds if you lay it thick enough.

It will neutralize any odor when peed or pooped on and at the same time fertilize your soil beneath as it breaks down. It also holds in water during rain so there is no puddle. It may need to be added to every couple years or so, about maybe 5 yrs is my guess. 

That's what I currently do and I have amazing soil to plant in when I need it now and because of chips capacity to hold and retain moisture, I don't have to water much.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I grew up in Michigan on a farm, we never had this problem living on acreage. Our lawn was mostly weeds but hey if you keep 'em mowed they are green and look like grass!  

In the south we can use Zoysia grass and the leaves on some of the Zoysia feel like astro turf, very thick and stiff! It can be a tough grass. Bermuda is wicked good at growing back but can be invasive.

We had good luck with the Tif Grand (Bermuda grass) until this past winter where it really took a beating as it got down to it's tolerance level.

I'm thinking that what Anubis installs depends on how she allows her dogs to use her yard? If they are out most of the day then she may want to keep it really simple and put down some sort of soft cover material.

If she only lets them out while being supervised then maybe a combination of hard cover and soft cover?

The other idea I was pondering, again depending on how she wants to use the yard is a nice dog kenneling /pottying area where they can be outside but contained in area with sanitary, easy to clean ground cover and then let them out to romp and play in the yard supervised. with grass or other ground cover. 




Blanketback said:


> Oh yeah, it's so true! It's almost like if you want a nice lawn with dogs in a zone 5, you have to move every fall, lol! I'm very familiar with a dirt yard, and once it packs down hard it's awful. Reseeding makes the birds happy though  Clover is tender, but it grows like a weed, ha ha. We have big patches in our lawn and I love it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

SunCzarina, I really like the design you wove into the chain link. What a great idea, so much cooler than the usual plain background. Nice!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Otto has a bit of elbow displasia. He's pretty skillful about not running hard on the bluestone - he trots when he's on the patio. 

My house came with french drains that run along the foundation. They have a gray gravel trench that's been annoying me for years. When the back yard is fenced off so the grass of the year gets a fighting chance, I have a crazy paver path along the back of the house to get to the other side. Otto never runs on the pavers, he runs on the gravel and it drives me nuts. I pay my kids to pick it out of the lawn...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Roto Tiller Foot! LOL! 

The pics you posted above are very pretty btw. Love the raised flower borders you did to soften the fence line. 



SunCzarina said:


> LOL nothing stands up to Roto Tiller Foot and his ball.
> 
> Grass in May (I reseed every year)
> 
> ...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here you go. On a slope, mulched with blue flagstone and red flag colonial stone. Obviously had some weeding to do! Border around the fence, landscaping fabric underneath.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Blanketback said:


> SunCzarina, I really like the design you wove into the chain link. What a great idea, so much cooler than the usual plain background. Nice!


Thanks! It's called Fence Weave, made out of recycled plastic bottles and easy to do once you get the hang of it. Isn't that expensive either, about $200 to do a 50ft run of 6ft chain. I need to power wash it though, it's got some green funkus going on right now.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Michelle, your beds are awesome and they so prove my theory of the dogs having to be able to go around it or THROUGH it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

They go through it every time! Unless they follow me up the steps! lol


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I would back fill the slope to even it out as much as possible and get a WASHED gravel or pea gravel.

You want it washed so there is no extra dirt in there, just clean gravel. 

We spread this over 2 acres a few years ago and it has completely cut down the mud!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

What a beautiful property, Jax - I'm jealous! You have so much more room than I do, and that's the trouble with small yards when the dogs are running over the same area constantly. I wish we had a few more acres, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What we've found is dogs usually take the straightest or shortest path they can from point A to B. We call Smitty 'bull dozer dog' because he'll plow through things, especially if there's a squirrel on the other side!



BTW, Michelle, very pretty and all it needs now is a water feature (if you don't have one already.....)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I hate water features.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh. gee.... O.K. :shrug:

I love ours. Got a little waterfall and three goldfish, two of which we've had for many years. Most folks really enjoy it but each to their own.



Jax08 said:


> I hate water features.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

project a couple years ago


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Rocks are awesome, the dog only has to walk into it a couple times to learn!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh. gee.... O.K. :shrug:
> 
> I love ours. Got a little waterfall and three goldfish, two of which we've had for many years. Most folks really enjoy it but each to their own.


??? Not sure why the comments and the shrugging? It just adds snark and is unnecessary. I like my yard just fine, thank you. If I wanted something that required constant work, I would have landscaped differently. Bushes, stone and mulch require very little work. I thought the idea of the thread was suggestions that didn't need much maintenance not to critique my landscaping?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SunCzarina said:


> Rocks are awesome, the dog only has to walk into it a couple times to learn!


And I live in the hot spot of Blue Flagstone with a man with a skidsteer! I'll post a picture later of all the stone he pulled out of the barn foundation. Really nice stone in there. Unfortunately, Harvey (Grandad's friend) was a master at mixing really wet cement and pouring it into foundations to strengthen them. Scott was not a happy camper.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Because your response was very terse after I paid you a compliment. It was just a friendly comment about YOUR property. sheesh.

My hubby does landscaping and the vast majority of people enjoy water features so I was surprised. 

AND I was going to suggest it but did not because Anubis is on a tight budget but a little water feature in the corner by the tree/shrub she has would be nice.

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:





Jax08 said:


> ??? Not sure why the comments and the shrugging? It just adds snark and is unnecessary. I like my yard just fine, thank you. If I wanted something that required constant work, I would have landscaped differently. Bushes, stone and mulch require very little work. I thought the idea of the thread was suggestions that didn't need much maintenance not to critique my landscaping?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Anubis - you could tier that to take the slope out. Lots of work but can be done. Then lay sod, mulch, stone, plants. I'm all about low maintenance!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

She's on a $500 budget.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I have to buy my rocks and have them delivered. Nothing but sand.

Yeah cement. Remember when my wall fell over? All summer to clean this up and the only good that came of it is all the women on the block are scared of me because they watched me swing a sledgehammer for months busting it up.










Atleast I had nice tulips that year to look at (long live the Queen, I used to tie her out front to scare away all the freaky contractors who'd pull up to ask me if I wanted to pay their gypsy cousin to rebuild it)


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The one good thing about the slope is that it'll help with the water runoff. That's so important when you've got clay soil.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes. I got that. Again, thank you. She's also not hiring a landscaper. I'm sure if people give ideas she can be creative and figure it out. My large area costs me less than $300 and I did that with a shovel and a broken leg.

btw...OP...I do not recommend you dig holes with a newly plated leg. The Ortho gets REALLY mad.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's pretty much all we got here, red/orange clay! So true that run off is important.

Far cry from when I lived in Florida, you could practically hear the water siphon off down through the sandy soil. 




Blanketback said:


> The one good thing about the slope is that it'll help with the water runoff. That's so important when you've got clay soil.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - if you mulch, I like to use a heavier mulch from a sawmill whenever possible. The first year, we used finer bagged mulch and it wasn't down for an hour before a torrential rain hit. My pretty red mulch was at the bottom of the hill, 100 ft from the bed.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, that's why I suggested earlier try to buy in bulk. Saves money and generally speaking better quality materials.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Looking at my yard.... Straw has been a saving grace. It withstood all the snow too .


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would have to get a permit for anything with stone


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Bear L said:


> Free option - get free wood chips from tree trimming companies who will also deliver for free. Lay it down about 6 inches to 1 ft, and prob more at the bottom of slope. It can help you level the slope (don't know how steep it is) as it breaks down - which I like for my slight slopes and holes. It also keeps out the weeds if you lay it thick enough.
> 
> It will neutralize any odor when peed or pooped on and at the same time fertilize your soil beneath as it breaks down. It also holds in water during rain so there is no puddle. It may need to be added to every couple years or so, about maybe 5 yrs is my guess.
> 
> That's what I currently do and I have amazing soil to plant in when I need it now and because of chips capacity to hold and retain moisture, I don't have to water much.


There is a whole gardening method based on using tree trimmers free mulch. Unfortunately the tree guys near me grind their waste and SELL it as mulch though I have been able to get decent stuff for around $14 a yard but it is not the coarse grind I want. 

Anubis how much rain do you get? We get 50-60 inches a year and mulch breaks down pretty quickly. Cypress playground chips seem to last a long time if you can't get big grind, but I guarantee they will drift down hill and need to be raked back some.

Back to Eden Gardening | Journey to Sustainability


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I grew up in Michigan on a farm, we never had this problem living on acreage. Our lawn was mostly weeds but hey if you keep 'em mowed they are green and look like grass!
> 
> In the south we can use Zoysia grass and the leaves on some of the Zoysia feel like astro turf, very thick and stiff! It can be a tough grass. Bermuda is wicked good at growing back but can be invasive.
> 
> ...


I grew up with zoysia grass. Very tough grass. I've thought about grabbing a few plugs to start it in my yard. It is hard on mowers as it's tough and thick when properly maintained. I don't know how it would do with a constant pounding from dogs though. Growing up, we kept our dogs inside most the time so they didn't have the chance to run the fence too much.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I did use rubber mulch for one area.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Otto used to eat mulch. As a puppy we'd go walking and he would OCD try and pull me into someone's yard trying to eat their mulch. LOL no matter how many times I told him that's going to be hard on the pooper.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm a landscape designer and horticulturist by trade. I like the picture you first posted, OP. Look into wooly thyme. I had a patio of flagstone with that surrounding it and in between the stones, and it stood up perfectly to 2 85lb Labradors plus my three young children and all the neighborhood kids running back and forth over it all.day.long.

Bluestone will probably be harder to find for you-- it's all over the east coast but not as prevalent here. There are very very nice manmade stones that are made to work together in a natural-looking pattern. I very much disagree about not underlaying with sand. If you want a base that won't upheave in the winter weather, you absolutely MUST compact a 5/8 minus layer of crushed rock first, about 2", then put down coarse sand (1 1/2") then lay your stones, then fill with regular old jointing sand. That stuff is all cheap, plus it will give your thyme something to grow in. (Remember, wooly is the toughest and flattest).

I have done several myself, here is the one I did in one day (although I had the circle dug out the night before). It's 8 feet in diameter-- perfectly level (I used a level with the stones) and in 5 very hard winters, has never moved. Mine is Montana flagstone (it also doesn't have wooly thyme but that's because mine is for a different application than yours):











I don't like water features myself. I have a natural pond I dug out to catch drainage, it fills up every year and I have to fight to keep the dog out of it. I even get moose that think it's big enough for them (it's not) and they're worse! :crazy:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah....I wouldn't suggest a water feature for Anubis-Star right now either, low on the priority list.

Having said that, _in general_, a well designed planned water feature isn't *that* high maintenance. I've kept aquariums on and off for 40 years now and my outdoor pond is less maintenance then most of my aquariums have been.

There's some tricks and tips to keeping them low maintenance that experienced installers will help out with during design and planning and of course the size and complexity can vary greatly. 

Some people have very elaborate set ups, well planted, with a large amount of Koi or you can just have a small fountain. Water is a very soothing element in landscapes.

We have a small 50 gallon preformed plastic basin, a bio filter with a small pump and small water fall pump since it's only lifting the water about 2 1/2 feet up the water fall. Three Sarasa Comets that I feed every other day during the summer, two of which we've had for at least 4 years now. The bio filter needs to be cleaned every couple of months during the summer. It's one of those things that if you plan it wisely, based on location, amount of sun and size it's a lot less work then keeping up with a GSD!

Our neighbors love ours so much several of them installed similar set ups.

The biggest mistake people make with water features stocked with fish is either too many fish or it's the wrong size for conditions, too much sun and gets algea and/or too hot for the fish/not enough oxygen. They don't do enough research.

We really enjoy our water feature and it will be a nice selling point when we are ready to sell the house. It's not for everyone but many people, especially those who enjoy keeping Koi really, really get into the ponds and water features. 

Oh and we don't have moose in GA, just the neighbor's lab used to jump in, now with the backyard fenced the only wild critter invading is the occasional frog or raccoon! 

I trained our dogs to stay out of it and they do, plus they get their own little kiddie pool on hot summer days.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Hey everyone I have not read all the responses yet but just to answer some questions. It's a fairly moderate slope. I would so the end portion by the fence is about 5 feet lower than the top of the yard, perhaps closer to 6 feet. 

It's colorado so fairly dry. We get some rain in the sprint and some sleet in the fall. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here's a very simple water feature, remember they don't have to be 1,000 gallon koi ponds with built in reverse osmosis! LOL!

Also they do attract nice little critters like birds, butterflies, frogs. In a suburban environment they really can make a back yard feel more like an oasis. 

IMO the key is to not have them in direct sun all day. 

Here's a blog about low cost environmentally friendly features. 

Low Cost, Beautiful Water Features


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I wanted a water source in my yard, because I love attracting the wildlife. We used a jacuzzi tub someone had left at the curb, lol. We used a pool liner inside it, so it doesn't leak. A small waterfall, nothing fancy. I add floating hyacinth every spring, that's it. I get so many frogs, birds, and cool bugs like dragonflies - they help me with my mosquito population 

If you're thinking about mulch, be careful what you choose. I wouldn't use rubber myself, even though it lasts longer. And stay away from cocoa too. 

It's red. It's rubber. Is it safe for your garden? - Fine Gardening 

Is Cocoa Mulch Really a Dog Poison?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I had a water feature in a big container, it was cute but I had to shut it off because the dogs were playing with it. Then it got mosquitos. I hate mosquito larva so nasty!

Rocket, what's that little purple creeping plant? Does it like shade? I have a problem area that gets only very early morning sun. The only thing I've been able to get established in there is wild strawberry.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would have the same issue at my house, Jenn. And I have no desire to run electricity across my yard to run a recirc pump.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Anubis. I would choose gravel over mulch *if *you plan on staying in house long term. The pea gravel migrates but you may be able to level the yard somewhat with some cheap crusher run BEFORE you lay down the pea gravel. It will also help keep the pea gravel from sinking into the clay. If your yard has a natural terrace, as it appears, you may want to run some landscape timber to hold the gravel on the top section to keep it from going down lower.

The mulch absorbs urine and can stink to high heaven. The plus of mulch is it will improve your soil while the gravel is a headache to get rid of. You can always deal with the mulch. It is easier to pick poo off of mulch than gravel though unless your dogs poop little rocks. Also with the low rain, mulch will last a lot longer for you than for me. I *really *would look at playground chips if you can do some terracing. It lasts very well and does not absorb liquids nearly as bad as the other mulches. You do have to keep it raked as the dogs running around will send the chips flying and they will pile up against the fence. But it is also attractive compared to gravel.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't mean to take this off topic. *sorry Anubis*...but if the water is circulating you don't get mosquitos. I have to watch my bird bath for that because the water is still.

So yes if you don't have a pump and fountain creating *enough* movement in the water mosquitos can be a problem. My Comets love mosquito larva, it's fish food, they don't last long!

In my three teir water fountain never had a single one because the water is always agitating.



SunCzarina said:


> I had a water feature in a big container, it was cute but I had to shut it off because the dogs were playing with it. Then it got mosquitos. I hate mosquito larva so nasty!
> 
> Rocket, what's that little purple creeping plant? Does it like shade? I have a problem area that gets only very early morning sun. The only thing I've been able to get established in there is wild strawberry.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good point.....




jocoyn said:


> Anubis. I would choose gravel over mulch *if *you plan on staying in house long term. The pea gravel migrates but you may be able to level the yard somewhat with some cheap crusher run BEFORE you lay down the pea gravel. It will also help keep the pea gravel from sinking into the clay. If your yard has a natural terrace, as it appears, you may want to run some landscape timber to hold the gravel on the top section to keep it from going down lower.
> 
> The mulch absorbs urine and can stink to high heaven. The plus of mulch is it will improve your soil while the gravel is a headache to get rid of. You can always deal with the mulch. It is easier to pick poo off of mulch than gravel though unless your dogs poop little rocks. Also with the low rain, mulch will last a lot longer for you than for me. I *really *would look at playground chips if you can do some terracing. It lasts very well and does not absorb liquids nearly as bad as the other mulches. You do have to keep it raked as the dogs running around will send the chips flying and they will pile up against the fence. But it is also attractive compared to gravel.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Not much larvae in mine either, not with all the frogs


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I can't remember but I think it's just Golden thyme. Might be Doone Valley or just coccineus major.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

We did a thyme experiment last year at the garden club's playground project. I may check it to see how that worked out under traffic. I have so much traffic in my yard!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

To some people, the constant sound of water (among other things) is irritating. Many people prefer quiet and peaceful.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What you find 'irritating' has nothing to do with the thread topic.  :shrug:

I'm going to get off the water feature thing, it was just a small aside comment, meant in very good will when Michelle showed the pics of her pretty property and landscaping. 

How about you give Anubis some more tips since this is your area of expertise instead of telling me (with very little nuance LOL!) to be quiet on a forum?




RocketDog said:


> To some people, the constant sound of water (among other things) is irritating. Many people prefer quiet and peaceful.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The only time I don't enjoy the sound of running water is when I have to go pee


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

@ blanketback.....

:spittingcoffee::rofl:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

FWIW, when I googled playground mulch, all I got was this rubber stuff. I would not want a dog exposed to the petrochemicals from that stuff. 

What we have here is cypress playground mulch. Something like it may not be available there but it lasts a LONG time. I moved mine to the yard area since it was coated with mud and dirt from about 65 inches of rain last year.

Product Details : | Greenville, Spartanburg, Boiling Springs, SC | Southern Mulch


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I can't use any kind of wood mulch, they all try to eat it. Just now I came outside and the darn dog was eating it out of the bag. They do not bother the rubber mulch at all. Rubber mulch is used in my area for playgrounds.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I believe I gave my opinion, with clear instructions or "tips" as you say. You're the one that kept browbeating everyone about the water feature. I made only one factual post about it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.








​ Rocketdog is that an example of your landscaping ? Gorgeous .
The only problem in using thyme as a ground cover is that it attracts bees . 
Have you thought about stamped concrete? https://www.google.ca/search?q=stam...XyATz6YFo&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=563

attractive. You can custom colour the concrete , if you choose a flagstone look, and it will look like natural flagstone at a fraction of the cost and without the bother of frost heaves .
To make the area pretty and soften it with greenery you could make raised planters to grow your kitchen herbs, or beautiful flowers . Nasturiums trailing over the sides are a good choice , in a bed of lemon drop mini marigolds are good for warm and dry - very little care needed. 
You can contain the bale of straw in a frame like this 
visit straw bale link if you are not familiar with it . The raised planters below are soil covered , but you can make it to size to fit a straw bale. You don't even need a solid bottom if you are using a bale , wire screen will do. https://www.google.ca/search?q=stra...8PIaN2gWh64HwAQ&ved=0CCgQsAQ&biw=1275&bih=519












of course you can make it more ornamental than this.

The dogs may even enjoy the shade underneath.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> To some people, the constant sound of water (among other things) is irritating. Many people prefer quiet and peaceful.


I would love a water feature but it's not electrically possible. I think the sound of water is very relaxing, calm, and peaceful. I have my fish tanks set up so I can hear the water and watch the fish and I'm sure it brings my blood pressure down


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i'm not reading all 8 pages so it might have been suggested. my wife works at a doggy day camp place and the outside dog yards are laid with little pebbles. no mud but some dogs like to eat the pebbles and some pebbles get tracked back inside.

eating the pebbles can be corrected but you will have deal with stepping on the occasional pebble inside but it's no worse than stepping on a kibble piece but it's better than mud everywhere.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Carmen, I had to fence off my garden area because Beau loves to pick vegetables. One day he got in and pulled a bunch tomatoes and I could not for the life of me figure out what happened to my lovely butternut squash until I found them in the corner of the yard with puncture marks only a dog could make. Did not even do them the honor of chewing them up! The permanent raised beds are coming along but the fence will be beefed up. That would be a lovely option for that yard though if you did not want to give them the whole thing. 

Last year.










This year, just getting started...I want to be planted already but we had a hard freeze this week so its all ok.....I may have a late start to my growing season this year! Hope to have the first 6 beds in place by next weekend. Washout this weekend.










The gravel section of our yard. Eventually, we are replacing the deck and only having an upper deck with pavers below and the new deck will run the length of the house and have a pergola type roof for summer shade. The gravel will be shifted to the run section and the trail and may be covered with a finer gravel. Supervised play is in the lower section of the yard. The run actually goes a good distance around. Have to upload that one.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Llombardo, if you want to enjoy the sounds of trickling water without worrying about wiring, you can always just use an extension cord. Our waterfall is set up like that, so it's only running when we're out to enjoy it. It's just a simple submersible aquarium pump, with some tubing to extend the water outflow, run up the back of some rocks. It isn't anything fancy, but it makes us happy


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

scarfish said:


> i'm not reading all 8 pages so it might have been suggested.


Same here! I was going to suggest hgtv.com for ideas. That's where I got some of my ideas... Just reading this page it seems to be a debate about water features lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hey , Nancy , after this long long harsh winter I am itching to get going on gardening . For the OP I suggested the planted part be off the ground, waist level , so that she could mamize the space the dogs had to run , and to create a space for eye-appeal , or kitchen bounty. I hope to start cool weather peas and spinach soon.

the raised planters were an idea for wheelchair accessibity. You could put them on casters and move them around to maximize sun exposure .

Also by raising any planted material , especially in a small enclosed area, you don't have dogs marking the bales / beds.

I love the raised containers with the corrugated metal sides !!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Since you are a professional landscaper and familiar with plants in the zone Anubis lives in I thought you'd have more constructive ideas. Clearly you're more interested in drama. Knock yourself out, I know you will. 




RocketDog said:


> I believe I gave my opinion, with clear instructions or "tips" as you say. You're the one that kept browbeating everyone about the water feature. I made only one factual post about it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This is the run as seen from the corner of the house aimed in the opposite direction.










Then the steps which my son in law is building which will be filled with gravel










And when Beau runs down the hill there, he runs along the path to fetch his ball. We have not run him on the steps yet.....that may be interesting and we may wind up with mulch between the steps and the fence for him. But right now, he has rototilled that section of hill and it is steep. My husband has promised to make a grandkid friendly / dog friendly structure on those posts this year.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Now you two, stop "browbeating" about the water features! Lol!!!


Hey btw I've seen some nice pumps that run off of solar panels. 

Maybe we should start a thread in chat about water features. 



Blanketback said:


> Llombardo, if you want to enjoy the sounds of trickling water without worrying about wiring, you can always just use an extension cord. Our waterfall is set up like that, so it's only running when we're out to enjoy it. It's just a simple submersible aquarium pump, with some tubing to extend the water outflow, run up the back of some rocks. It isn't anything fancy, but it makes us happy


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If someone would start a post for a self cleaning dog pool that is a thread I would be interested in! Right now looking at buying a stock tank with a drain because I have to empty the kiddy pool every 3 days or it gets nasty.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Very nice place. I like the run set up! 




jocoyn said:


> This is the run as seen from the corner of the house aimed in the opposite direction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I would suggest a filtration system of some type but I don't know of any that can hold up to the German Shedder hair! :laugh:

It would clog up pretty fast. Stock tank with a drain is probably your best bet and I think I might look into that too!

You guys soaked up there? We had flood watches here, speaking of water 'feature'. 



jocoyn said:


> If someone would start a post for a self cleaning dog pool that is a thread I would be interested in! Right now looking at buying a stock tank with a drain because I have to empty the kiddy pool every 3 days or it gets nasty.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and one more pic I found, from spring of last year, of how we used the gravel. We tried mulch but as others have mentioned it's got it's down sides. This is a medium mixture of river rock and calico. The stones are rounded and not sharp. This greatly helped the mud situation. Like Jocoyn it's on level area, our lot slopes down just beyond the split rail fence.


(oh not to 'brow beat' there happens to be a water fountain in the pic.....too....  )


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We are soaked and we have been soaked for over a year now, so it seems. That's ok. We are not flooding and I would rather be soaked than dry. But it does make you rethinking your landscaping in regards to dogs and all the wetness brings out the nasties in critterville. My mosquito dunks are in nylon "footies" loaded with rocks waiting for the first bite. (We have an intermittent creek at the bottom of our property and it can sometimes breed mosquitos-I just toss them in).


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

jocoyn said:


> We are soaked and we have been soaked for over a year now, so it seems. That's ok. We are not flooding and I would rather be soaked than dry. But it does make you rethinking your landscaping in regards to dogs and all the wetness brings out the nasties in critterville. My mosquito dunks are in nylon "footies" loaded with rocks waiting for the first bite. (We have an intermittent creek at the bottom of our property and it can sometimes breed mosquitos-I just toss them in).


I need to know more about these mosquito dunks. We don't have water but we have a LOT of pine trees and bushes.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree, I'd rather have more rain then not enough!

No skimping on the heartguard for sure! Skeeters will be bad.

*Ellimaybel* they are little 'doughnut' shaped things which dissolve slowly in water and kill mosquito larvae, safe to use around animals and fish.

Here's a link with some info. Mosquito Dunks, Kill Mosquito Larvae for 30 Days, Mosquitoes





jocoyn said:


> We are soaked and we have been soaked for over a year now, so it seems. That's ok. We are not flooding and I would rather be soaked than dry. But it does make you rethinking your landscaping in regards to dogs and all the wetness brings out the nasties in critterville. My mosquito dunks are in nylon "footies" loaded with rocks waiting for the first bite. (We have an intermittent creek at the bottom of our property and it can sometimes breed mosquitos-I just toss them in).


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

There is far more to hardiness than just zones. Rainfall, elevation, weather pattern, etc all play into which plants perform well. Where I live is "several" miles from the OP, if you've ever looked at a map. There are many things that influence plant performance. I gave the OP advice on one of the scenarios she mentioned. She is free to pm me if she wants specifics, but since there is over 1,000 miles between us, and likely anyone else, a good reputable local nursery is a far more valuable resource and will make better use of her time and money than advice on the internet from people who don't know the specific nuances of her individual application.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good idea!

I do hope some of the ideas suggested (non-plant like gravel/hard scapes) help Anubis Star out with some ideas/inspiration and get her on a path to less mud soon!



RocketDog said:


> There is far more to hardiness than just zones. Rainfall, elevation, weather pattern, etc all play into which plants perform well. Where I live is "several" miles from the OP, if you've ever looked at a map. There are many things that influence plant performance. I gave the OP advice on one of the scenarios she mentioned. She is free to pm me if she wants specifics, but since there is over 1,000 miles between us, and likely anyone else, a good reputable local nursery is a far more valuable resource and will make better use of her time and money than advice on the internet from people who don't know the specific nuances of her individual application.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Gwenhwyfair, love the yard. I would love a hand at Anubis yard. Depending on the sun potential, some raised planters with guards to keep the dogs out and breaking that yard up into two sections or terracing could add some real interest and be rugged. Tractor supply sells some of the ponds with drains in the bottom and so does southern states. I may work towards one of each eventually and keep the bigger one covered until a good rinse off before entering.

These are the dunks

Mosquito Dunks - 20 pk | thatpetplace.com


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thank you.  Hubs is a landscaper and he's got the 'green' thumb, I help out but it's mostly him.

BTW he looked at the pic and thought as you and jax08 did, terracing would probably be best, but might require an experienced hand at least to get it laid out and started.

(btw I'll look into those ponds with drains too, we have a tractor supply right around the corner!)



jocoyn said:


> Gwenhwyfair, love the yard. I would love a hand at Anubis yard. Depending on the sun potential, some raised planters with guards to keep the dogs out and breaking that yard up into two sections or terracing could add some real interest and be rugged. Tractor supply sells some of the ponds with drains in the bottom and so does southern states. I may work towards one of each eventually and keep the bigger one covered until a good rinse off before entering.
> 
> These are the dunks
> 
> Mosquito Dunks - 20 pk | thatpetplace.com


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

carmspack said:


> This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oops. Didn't see this before. Yes, that's a little spot in my front yard. I have soooo many deer, so my yard is different than I would like, but it suffices. Thanks for the compliment.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the lady's mantle is gorgeous - always a fresh colour . What , though , are the little light blue flowers just in front of it , and in the front to the left of the picture?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

jocoyn said:


>


I really like this fence - would be a huge imposition to ask your husband how to build this? In somewhat handy female terms - I'm lousy with a saw but I can swing a hammer and work a stapler.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No imposition. We paid someone to put up the fence posts, gates, and wooden 2x4s, then we let it sit for a month, stained it, and put on no climb horse fence. 

This was woven fence which we used because of the hill, it is a more forgiving (you can rack it some to go up and down hill and it actually does go downhill from the house to the end of the fence line. It is also better quality than the welded fence we found but harder to work with. 

We said a lot of choice words hanging it. I made my own fence puller with a piece of rebar and ratcheting tie down straps though. To start the fence we folded it on itself and nailed to the 4x4s with curved fence nails, then went post by post pulling it tight each time. After it was all nailed to the 4x4s, we nailed to the bottom 2x4s. Had we known better I would like to have the top horizontal boards to where we could have nailed to it as well but the fence is so tight it really does not matter.

I would do it like THIS guy if I had it to do over! No tractor to pull but those rachet straps would still work.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Isotoma Fluviatilis--- Blue Star Creeper. It's a zone six plant, but it needs really good drainage. Will often die out in a bad winter but should leave you some babies. I think you might be too cold for it up in Canada but I don't know what your zone is, what your cold minimum/maximum is. 

Joycon, I like that fence. When people don't want deer fencing but need it, I tell them to look at things like that. Very attractive but if built higher, would do a good job keeping deer out while still preserving the view.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Deer or marauding german shepherds. I have several coils of green wire mesh fence from when Morgan was a puppy - couldn't keep her out of the garden. Always hated the metal posts that you hook it on and it's nearly impossible to get it straight - I'm going to try something like that the goat farmer did. Use what you have, I have little boys with bikes and a pedal tractor!

This year I need to build something quasi attractive for my blueberries. Venus wants to murder the one on the end...


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

Oh my gosh, THE MOST helpful thread! :wild:

(Reading and taking notes :apple:, looking out on a sad patch of grass, weeds and dirt...)

Thank you!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Gwenhwyfair, love the yard. I would love a hand at Anubis yard. Depending on the sun potential, some raised planters with guards to keep the dogs out and breaking that yard up into two sections or terracing could add some real interest and be rugged. Tractor supply sells some of the ponds with drains in the bottom and so does southern states. I may work towards one of each eventually and keep the bigger one covered until a good rinse off before entering.
> 
> These are the dunks
> 
> Mosquito Dunks - 20 pk | thatpetplace.com


Haha come over and work away! 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

RocketDog said:


> Joycon, I like that fence. When people don't want deer fencing but need it, I tell them to look at things like that. Very attractive but if built higher, would do a good job keeping deer out while still preserving the view.


I had a war over the HOA with that fence. I did not tell anyone when I did the inner fence because when I put up the outer fence they demanded that I put the picket design on the box (the sides and front facing the road are shadowbox) and that design of the inner fence is EXACTLY what I wanted to do between us and the woods. I even used the argument that the HOA retaining ponds are surrounded by split rail and wire and this looks a lot better than that! The pickets were a compromise as they wanted shadowbox in the back and I said that a picket was half a shadowbox...so they gave in. ... Our yard slopes down away from the house ........you cannot even see our back fence unless you stand in my yard.

I lost. I did it during the regime of a little Napoleon of a president. My next door neighbor recently put up an aluminum fence with chain link at the back (the back of both our yards face the woods!) . It is not lost on me that this is the NEW president of the HOA. The architectural chair has the ugliest yard in the neighborhood, BTW. 

The covenants expressly state "no chain link". ........ Needless to say I still have not gotten over that one and, at some point, may start removing the pickets and replacing with woven wire or black chain link.

Honestly, I am just quietly doing my garden, doing my landscaping piecemeal, and not making waves. Hope to get in some chickens in a few years . They way I see it, all kinds of violations are already allowed and they know it. But you pick your battles. My next battle will be solar panels (not mentioned in the covenants). Our back roof faces south and a section of it has enough sun for solar. Once again, you could not see the panels from the street....I have been told they actually cannot prevent me from putting up solar panels ....doing research on that one.

Anubis. I do hear you on the money. I remember the days when I filled a large dog pen by going to the quarry and shoveling the rocks myself into my station wagon (you weigh it before and after). It was a real cheap way to get the rocks and I got them over time, but they may not allow that now  and if you can do the whole thing at once delivery is not that bad but adds to the cost of the rocks. They typically charge per load. Just use the calculators and plan for a good 4-6 inches deep with any ground cover. Treated 4x4 are not that bad and not as toxic as railroad ties. (The new ones not the old ones with arsenic) if you want keep it from shifting. You can hold in place with rebar (make sure no utilities underground first).


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

LOL delivery charge on a pallet of rocks is way less than replacing the shocks in the rear end, been there done that wrecked a stationwagon!


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