# Better choice Working or Show line GSD?



## astrovan2487

I'm in the early stages of starting to look for a puppy, or more importantly a good breeder in Maryland or PA. I know a little about GSDs but nothing about buying a puppy or the differences between show line and working line. I live on a large farm and am a very active person. The dog would not be left to roam on it's own under no circumstances unsupervised. My ideal dog would be one with a medium/more relaxed energy level with an affectionate and playful temperament. I am around the farm most of the time and if I'm not my husband is so the dog won't be left alone often. We have lots of different people and dogs constantly coming and going on the farm so it would have to be a friendly confident dog. We wouldn't be doing any kind of protection training, showing, or things of that nature but I would like to possibly train it to shed hunt so tracking ability would be a plus. I absolutely love the GSD I have now and I believe she is a working line dog but she was adopted so I do not know for sure. Any advice or information is very much appreciated


----------



## blackshep

It really depends on the dog.

I have a WL, and in theory I like them better, however, mine has a low threshold which makes life a little more difficult. But having said that, it's not what you want in a WL GSD either. She's a really fun dog to work and her drives mean she never quits on you, which is awesome. Her half brother is a perfect dog in my mind. He's also WL (obviously) but is 100% sound in all situations. I think it was just a bad combo of genetics in my case, two great dogs, but not a great match for each other.

I think what I'd do is look at specific litters and post the pedigree here and get feedback on what to expect from the breeding.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

You didn't mention if you were looking at West German Showline or American Showline vs WL?

Blacksheps advice is good but it does help to have at least a general feel for the dogs and lines too.

It can be a contentious topic at times but there are some members on this board who have experience owning, showing and competing both WGSL and WL. Through owning and working both lines they can provide a pro and con over view of both lines.

This is a good post by such a person which answers some of your questions with respect to West German Showline vs working lines. I hope it helps. The thread does have some disagreements but there's good information in it too.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5828866-post39.html


(P.s. I started tracking with my WGSL girl and she loves it.)


----------



## astrovan2487

Thanks for the replies. I definitely want German lines, more leaning towards west German working line. I feel like I have a slight prejudice against getting a show line, especially an American show line because I have heard a lot about health problems like hip dysplasia being more prevalent. 
The GSD I have now is 14.5+ years old and has had near perfect health and very good temperament, which is another reason I'm favoring the working line dogs. 
I won't get another dog while Shasta is around (and hopefully that is for a long time!) at this point I just want to get an idea of the best breeders around so that when the time comes I make a good decision.


----------



## astrovan2487

blackshep said:


> It really depends on the dog.
> 
> I have a WL, and in theory I like them better, however, mine has a low threshold which makes life a little more difficult. But having said that, it's not what you want in a WL GSD either. She's a really fun dog to work and her drives mean she never quits on you, which is awesome. Her half brother is a perfect dog in my mind. He's also WL (obviously) but is 100% sound in all situations. I think it was just a bad combo of genetics in my case, two great dogs, but not a great match for each other.
> 
> I think what I'd do is look at specific litters and post the pedigree here and get feedback on what to expect from the breeding.


What do you mean by low threshold? I'm kind of new at this...


----------



## zyppi

if you're on the fence, just concentrate on finding a responsible breeder.


----------



## Wolfenstein

astrovan2487 said:


> I feel like I have a slight prejudice against getting a show line, especially an American show line because I have heard a lot about health problems like hip dysplasia being more prevalent.


All the different types of GSDs are going to have issues with hip dysplatia and other issues. It's a SUPER common misconception that because of the structure of certain lines they're more prone to hip dysplatia, but the disease is genetic (although it can be influenced by how the dog is raised) and through proper testing, you have much greater chances of getting a sound dog. This applies to every type, not just American Show, which is why finding a breeder that does health testing is paramount. In addition to the different lines, you're going to want to do some research in to the various health issues that plague GSDs (hips, elbows, degenerative mylopathy, mega esophagus, etc) so you can find a breeder that tests for the issues you would prefer testing on, and tracks the occurrence of other issues in their lines and the lines of the sires they choose to minimize chances of problems.

Since you don't have a specific goal in mind that one type would be best suited for, when you're thinking about your future dog, think about how you imagine him or her inside your house on a daily basis, and during whatever activities you might be doing. Is your dog laying around while you get things done, following you around the house, begging you to get up and play ball? Is your dog going for hours on end at one particular task, or will you be out and about for just a little bit and you're done? Are you thinking of doing a lot of "for fun" training (whether it's tricks, helpful tasks, or a sport like agility) or are you thinking you're fine with the bare basics?

When you're thinking about all of these things, you might come to realize that the temperament in one line over another really appeals to you. You can also seek out clubs, sports, shows, etc in your area where you will be exposed to the different lines so you can see how the personalities would mesh with your lifestyle. All of this has the added benefit of helping you out when you do find a breeder. If you're very specific in the dog you are looking for, and you find a breeder with a great track record of producing sound dogs and the ability to match them with the right person, no matter what line you go for, you'll get the perfect dog for you.

Here's a great article on the differences between the lines, if you're interested.  It's written by a working dog breeder, but I think she does a good job of pointing out traits that may have a person lean towards the other lines:
(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

Good luck in your search! Have fun researching!


----------



## blackshep

astrovan2487 said:


> What do you mean by low threshold? I'm kind of new at this...


 Thresholds are how much of a stimulus a dog can take before having a reaction to it. 

This explains it better than I can:

Elements of Temperament

A lot of the people doing protection work prefer a dog with a lower threshold because it is easier to get a response from them. 

In my case, my dog's sire comes from top schutzhund dogs and I think that is likely where her low threshold comes from. It's great on the field, but not so great for real life, because at the slightest hint of action, she will have a melt down. One time to the point where she almost choked herself out while I was trying to get her the heck out of dodge and she had to lay down and had diarrhea.

It's something we work hard at, but it's a genetic issue along with her not being as clear headed as I'd like, so will always be there to some degree.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, this is absolutely not true. It's one of those zombie myths that just continues to shamble around that I had heard too. It's one of my pet peeves because it's so sad, there are some unscrupulous 'breeders' who use it to sell their dogs and then the poor puppy buyers end up with a HD positive dog.

Hip Dysplasia crops up in *all* lines.

We have many members here who have working line dogs that have experienced the heartbreak of a HD diagnosis.

Hip Dysplasia does not discriminate between lines or even breeders. Even the best breeders can have HD crop up in their litters. 

When it comes to hip dysplasia it's about stacking the odds in your favor and the best way to do that is to find a breeder who knows how to match dogs that have shown to NOT produce HD as often in their progeny.

Overall, from the reading and research I've seen improvements are being made in reducing HD in our breed, hopefully someday it can be eliminated.

So, in a nutshell, the breeder you select is going to be much more of a deciding factor as to HD prevention then whether you go with a showline or workingline.






astrovan2487 said:


> Thanks for the replies. I definitely want German lines, more leaning towards west German working line. *I feel like I have a slight prejudice against getting a show line, especially an American show line because I have heard a lot about health problems like hip dysplasia being more prevalent.
> *The GSD I have now is 14.5+ years old and has had near perfect health and very good temperament, which is another reason I'm favoring the working line dogs.
> I won't get another dog while Shasta is around (and hopefully that is for a long time!) at this point I just want to get an idea of the best breeders around so that when the time comes I make a good decision.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Here is a link that will help you in your research regarding hip dysplasia. It explains the "ZW Score". It is a guide that some breeders are using to reduce HD in GSDs.

This happens to be a West German Showline Breeder, I do not know this breeder but like to share this link for informational purposes, it explains HD and the ZW score nicely for potential puppy buyers. It's another tool that can be used to help reduce risk of HD.

Home of West Coast German Shepherd Dogs - HD Zuchtwert Information


----------



## GSDhistorian

Working line is the only way to go because that is a REAL German shepherd. The German shepherd was originally bred to have a straight back, they were bred to both guard sheep from wolves and also herd them. They were built to work all day and have the athleticism to fend off a wolf or other predator that attempted to harm the flock, and a GSD with a straight back is what can do that. The slanted back you see on a showline dog has no functional purpose and has often been reputed to be the reason of hip dysplasia. I have owned both showline and working line GSD.. the showline AWAYS had hip problems, the working line would live past 10 and still have excellent hips... coincidence... no.. Keep the GSD how they were intended to be!


----------



## blackshep

My WL GSD has a borderline hip, and two others in the litter with issues, so that's not true


----------



## martemchik

blackshep said:


> A lot of the people doing protection work prefer a dog with a lower threshold because it is easier to get a response from them.
> 
> In my case, my dog's sire comes from top schutzhund dogs and I think that is likely where her low threshold comes from. It's great on the field, but not so great for real life, because at the slightest hint of action, she will have a melt down. One time to the point where she almost choked herself out while I was trying to get her the heck out of dodge and she had to lay down and had diarrhea.


Completely untrue. No person doing protection work wants a dog with low threshold. The dogs tend to have very high thresholds, they're just taught when it's acceptable to forget about the threshold and respond to a threat. The dogs need high thresholds so that not every movement from a helper or a person in real life is considered a threat.

You might want to comment on things you know for sure...not just things you've read somewhere (I have an idea where you got this thought). Unless you've done bite work, seen more than just your dog (that you haven't even worked in protection), you really shouldn't make any kind of generalizations about the dogs or their handlers.


----------



## blackshep

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/150143-low-threshold-vs-high.html


----------



## blackshep

martemchik said:


> Completely untrue. No person doing protection work wants a dog with low threshold. The dogs tend to have very high thresholds, they're just taught when it's acceptable to forget about the threshold and respond to a threat. The dogs need high thresholds so that not every movement from a helper or a person in real life is considered a threat.
> 
> You might want to comment on things you know for sure...not just things you've read somewhere (I have an idea where you got this thought). Unless you've done bite work, seen more than just your dog (that you haven't even worked in protection), you really shouldn't make any kind of generalizations about the dogs or their handlers.


I didn't say low threshold, but "lower"

A dog with a high threshold won't be moved to protect as easily. And I've done bite work with my dog actually. Want to see some pics?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

whoops, I see Wolfenstein beat me to it re: HD in all lines. 

Sorry about the 'repeat' post. But it's good we can all help put that myth to rest.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

PLEASE stop this! It's argumentative, borderline bashing of showlines and wrong.

Go to the subforum on this site about 'show those hips' and there are many threads with working line dogs positive for hip dyplasia. Dogs who have been x-rayed by qualified veterinarians.

Stop propagating this myth, leading people down the wrong path of misinformation to heart break. 

You are helping bad breeders of all lines by posting things like this.




GSDhistorian said:


> Working line is the only way to go because that is a REAL German shepherd. The German shepherd was originally bred to have a straight back, they were bred to both guard sheep from wolves and also herd them. They were built to work all day and have the athleticism to fend off a wolf or other predator that attempted to harm the flock, and a GSD with a straight back is what can do that. The slanted back you see on a showline dog has no functional purpose and has often been reputed to be the reason of hip dysplasia. I have owned both showline and working line GSD.. *the showline AWAYS had hip problems*, the working line would live past 10 and still have excellent hips... coincidence... no.. Keep the GSD how they were intended to be!


----------



## martemchik

blackshep said:


> I didn't say low threshold, but "lower"
> 
> A dog with a high threshold won't be moved to protect as easily. And I've done bite work with my dog actually. Want to see some pics?


With the fearful one? Sounds like a great dog to do bitework with...

Pictures don't tell anything about a dog. You have to see a dog work to really understand what its doing and why it's doing it.

They aren't lower. The dog just actually reacts. It has nothing to do with threshold and everything to do with giving a crap. A lot of times people pass "high threshold" off for dogs that just don't care to protect their handler and if they actually do get tested will tuck tail and save themselves rather than put up a fight.

What you're discussing is nerve, not threshold. So don't confuse others because you don't have your terms straight.


----------



## blackshep

I didn't say she was fearful? Where did I say that? I said she had a lower prey drive threshold than I'd like.

Also, we don't do schutzhund anymore, although the group I trained with want me to bring her back, I don't have time to travel that far.

Can we get back on topic for the OP rather than attacking me and making this about you being a right fighter?

If you are doing protection sports and your dog has a very high threshold, there are those who would say, that is not ideal, because they aren't going to react to the decoy. She's be an amazing dog for a more experienced handler doing shutzhund (my group loved her), but I'm a novice who wanted to branch out to other sports, one of which is flyball which is too much for her.

My dog, for myself, has a bit too low a threshold. The schutzhund people I trained with love her, but it's not ideal for me in my real life, since it also means her prey drive (I do flyball) was off the charts and she would have a meltdown. Two totally different sports. What worked for one, did not work at all for the other.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup.

As I like to say, welcome to the most complicated breed in the world.

The OP is still sorting out SL vs WL and HD concerns.

He/she hasn't even gotten into the subgroups, drives and differences within the working lines.


----------



## martemchik

I've yet to meet a schutzhund person that would want a dog like this..."at the slightest hint of action, she will have a melt down. One time to the point where she almost choked herself out while I was trying to get her the heck out of dodge and she had to lay down and had diarrhea."

If your training group liked her that much...I have some idea of why you have the ideas you do about Schutzhund/working dogs/thresholds and everything else that goes along with training an IPO dog.


----------



## blackshep

You're right, you're clearly the expert based on all your nasty, erroneous posts to everyone all the time. I have no idea why you haven't been banned from here yet for your personal attacks. 

Never mind then, I'll go. I'm not going to share my personal experiences or try to help anyone on here again.


----------



## martemchik

As to the OP, any of the lines will give you what you want...just make sure you go to a solid breeder. I would suggest any of the "German" lines and making sure the lines have been tested and are titled. That will at least show that the dogs have been worked and have a strong enough temperament to get an IPO title.

The “exercise” you describe might not be enough for either line though. It’s not just about running around a large farm and having fun, it’s about working the dog, giving it a job, training it to do something. A lot of running will only do so much for the dog…it needs to be mentally stimulated every day.


----------



## Steve Strom

astrovan2487 said:


> I'm in the early stages of starting to look for a puppy, or more importantly a good breeder in Maryland or PA. I know a little about GSDs but nothing about buying a puppy or the differences between show line and working line. I live on a large farm and am a very active person. The dog would not be left to roam on it's own under no circumstances unsupervised. My ideal dog would be one with a medium/more relaxed energy level with an affectionate and playful temperament. I am around the farm most of the time and if I'm not my husband is so the dog won't be left alone often. We have lots of different people and dogs constantly coming and going on the farm so it would have to be a friendly confident dog. We wouldn't be doing any kind of protection training, showing, or things of that nature but I would like to possibly train it to shed hunt so tracking ability would be a plus. I absolutely love the GSD I have now and I believe she is a working line dog but she was adopted so I do not know for sure. Any advice or information is very much appreciated


I think for what you want Astro, the lines mean less then the actual dogs. The best thing to do would be go out and meet some breeders and their dogs, the actual dogs being bred. I'm biased towards the working lines just based on what I would see at dog shows vs Ipo, but I've seen showline dogs that can track perfectly fine for what you'd like to do.

To decide anything on temperament, its going to be about nerves, for you I would think. A nice solid dog that's confident. I wouldn't get into the weeds on drives and thresholds online. All that stuff makes a lot more sense when someone can show you the dogs and how they act/react to different things, especially thresholds. They can be real situational.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Astrovan, the following is not directed at you, it is meant in general regarding this whole SL vs WL debate that goes on. Just gotta say something I've wanted to say for awhile.

OP is not interested in IPO. So 'out in the weeds' is appropriate comment IMO.

People who are not interested in National level podium IPO dogs may be just fine with a WGSL at club level IPO.

This board is biased towards working lines and that's fine. 

They are a joy to watch, when paired with the right owner/handler and trained well, doing what they were meant to do on the field or working with a police or military partner. Amazing magnificent animals.

They are however, not for everybody. Almost every day I'm working with rescue groups trying to place working lines. People get them and they simply cannot handle these dogs. Right now, I and friend are trying to help some folks who are now the 4th home for this 2 year old working line dog (unbeknownst to the breeder who has been notified and was shocked to learn how this dog has been passed around). He was recently evaluated, great dog in the right hands, but he's NOT an easy dog for the average pet owner. We've hooked the new owners up with a good trainer IPO/Protection/Police working line enthusiast who will hopefully help this dog stay put in this home. 

In general:

I work with the average Joe pet owner every day and most of them can't even train a Shih Tzu or happy exuberant goober of a lab.

What I'm trying to say is I get that most here are biased to working lines, but most here ARE the type of homes who make these dogs look good. I am just asking that the bias be tempered a bit by the reality of what *most* average pet owners can really handle in their lives.

O.k. I hope I don't get in too much hot water, the above is food for thought from someone who deals day in and day out with the reality of average pet owners.


----------



## DJEtzel

blackshep said:


> If you are doing protection sports and your dog has a very high threshold, there are those who would say, that is not ideal, because they aren't going to react to the decoy. She's be an amazing dog for a more experienced handler doing shutzhund (my group loved her), but I'm a novice who wanted to branch out to other sports, one of which is flyball which is too much for her.


She didn't have the nerve for flyball, but she had the nerve for IPO?


----------



## lhczth

Steve Strom said:


> I think for what you want Astro, the lines mean less then the actual dogs. The best thing to do would be go out and meet some breeders and their dogs, the actual dogs being bred. I'm biased towards the working lines just based on what I would see at dog shows vs Ipo, but I've seen showline dogs that can track perfectly fine for what you'd like to do.
> 
> To decide anything on temperament, its going to be about nerves, for you I would think. A nice solid dog that's confident. I wouldn't get into the weeds on drives and thresholds online. All that stuff makes a lot more sense when someone can show you the dogs and how they act/react to different things, especially thresholds. They can be real situational.


 :thumbup:


----------



## lhczth

*Hey, people, lay off blackshep. This thread is not about them or their dog. *

*ADMIN*


----------



## Steve Strom

DJEtzel said:


> She didn't have the nerve for flyball, but she had the nerve for IPO?


Hey Dj, its really impossible to get an accurate picture of nerves/thresholds by online descriptions. I have one I'd call a nervebag in terms of IPO. SDA, he's a rock star.


----------



## zetti

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Astrovan, the following is not directed at you, it is meant in general regarding this whole SL vs WL debate that goes on. Just gotta say something I've wanted to say for awhile.
> 
> OP is not interested in IPO. So 'out in the weeds' is appropriate comment IMO.
> 
> People who are not interested in National level podium IPO dogs may be just fine with a WGSL at club level IPO.
> 
> This board is biased towards working lines and that's fine.
> 
> They are a joy to watch, when paired with the right owner/handler and trained well, doing what they were meant to do on the field or working with a police or military partner. Amazing magnificent animals.
> 
> They are however, not for everybody. Almost every day I'm working with rescue groups trying to place working lines. People get them and they simply cannot handle these dogs. Right now, I and friend are trying to help some folks who are now the 4th home for this 2 year old working line dog (unbeknownst to the breeder who has been notified and was shocked to learn how this dog has been passed around). He was recently evaluated, great dog in the right hands, but he's NOT an easy dog for the average pet owner. We've hooked the new owners up with a good trainer IPO/Protection/Police working line enthusiast who will hopefully help this dog stay put in this home.
> 
> In general:
> 
> I work with the average Joe pet owner every day and most of them can't even train a Shih Tzu or happy exuberant goober of a lab.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is I get that most here are biased to working lines, but most here ARE the type of homes who make these dogs look good. I am just asking that the bias be tempered a bit by the reality of what *most* average pet owners can really handle in their lives.
> 
> O.k. I hope I don't get in too much hot water, the above is food for thought from someone who deals day in and day out with the reality of average pet owners.


Some of the mellowest, best house dogs I've ever had have been WL. Conversely, I had a SL who was a hectic maniac in the house until he was 5.

My WLs have had on/off switches & knew the difference between the ScH field & the living room.


----------



## Discoetheque

I agree with everyone who is saying to first start your search with a good, reputable breeder who breeds healthy, stable dogs. The GSD should be a stable and ready companion, regardless of lines. Health and longevity, along with stability of temperament should be at the top of the pyramid, and there are healthy and stable dogs in all iterations of the GSD, just as there are unhealthy, unsound dogs in all iterations.

I love my WGSL dog. She's the greatest GSD I have ever owned and probably will ever own. Has not been to the vet for much of anything other than her physicals/vaccines in her 5.5 years of life. She was one of the only dogs to obtain her CGC-A and TDI in the evaluation we attended in May. She is started in IPO, and would likely be further than her current stopping point had I not made some poor financial choices in my life and actually been able to continue her training and trialling. She'll fire up and simmer down when she needs to.

Get out there, meet some dogs, meet some breeders. Visit some different venues, clubs, shows and learn about who is bringing what to the table.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

That's why I said 'in general'.

Look, people talk about how the WLs are so great because they can work, work all day and on and on. 

I go to IPO trials and train with WLs and MOST of the WL owners say the exact opposite of the below. They joke around about how when it's safe to let the dogs out of the crate. They are proud of their dogs higher energy and work ethic.

What I have learned is what people say on this forum and what they say around other WL owners are two entirely different things. I'm not sure why that is but it is.

Now they LOVE their dogs, I also think their dogs are awesome, BUT they simply are not always the easiest 'pet' dogs to have.

Yes there is variations amongst individuals but we are talking about generalities here and people like their WLs BECAUSE they are generally different from show lines and there in lies the conundrum, you see.

I'd also like to pose this hypothetical. Since WLs are more the 'in' type of GSD these days to have, they may end up suffering the "101 Dalamations" fate. Where their reputation will become bad after enough bad breeders and bad owners get ahold of them. So think of that way too, sometimes it's better for the WLs to not be presented as an dog for all people all the time.





zetti said:


> Some of the mellowest, best house dogs I've ever had have been WL. Conversely, I had a SL who was a hectic maniac in the house until he was 5.
> 
> My WLs have had on/off switches & knew the difference between the ScH field & the living room.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, when I first started looking into WL vs SL this was some of the most valuable advice given. This forum is great, a lot of valuable information but some of it conflicts with what one sees and hears IRL.

:thumbup:




Discoetheque said:


> I agree with everyone who is saying to first start your search with a good, reputable breeder who breeds healthy, stable dogs. The GSD should be a stable and ready companion, regardless of lines. Health and longevity, along with stability of temperament should be at the top of the pyramid, and there are healthy and stable dogs in all iterations of the GSD, just as there are unhealthy, unsound dogs in all iterations.
> 
> I love my WGSL dog. She's the greatest GSD I have ever owned and probably will ever own. Has not been to the vet for much of anything other than her physicals/vaccines in her 5.5 years of life. She was one of the only dogs to obtain her CGC-A and TDI in the evaluation we attended in May. She is started in IPO, and would likely be further than her current stopping point had I not made some poor financial choices in my life and actually been able to continue her training and trialling. She'll fire up and simmer down when she needs to.
> 
> Get out there, meet some dogs, meet some breeders. Visit some different venues, clubs, shows and learn about who is bringing what to the table.


----------



## lhczth

I have owned, lived with, trained, and titled WL for 30 years. A dog that can not settle, does not have an on off switch, is a poor representative of the breed no matter the lines. Some of my dogs would be or would have been totally suitable for an active pet home (sorry, I don't believe GSD belong in couch potato homes). Some would have or would be way too much dog, but not because of their drive level (high energy and high drive are not the same) but because of their overall personality. I see good and bad of all lines in our OB classes and also at the SchH clubs. The good ones come from breeders that attempt to breed sound balanced dogs. The others do not. 

OP needs to see dogs and find a breeder breeding for a balanced correct GSD (not all that easy anymore, unfortunately, especially in the states).


----------



## d4mmo

GSDhistorian said:


> Working line is the only way to go because that is a REAL German shepherd. The German shepherd was originally bred to have a straight back, they were bred to both guard sheep from wolves and also herd them. They were built to work all day and have the athleticism to fend off a wolf or other predator that attempted to harm the flock, and a GSD with a straight back is what can do that. The slanted back you see on a showline dog has no functional purpose and has often been reputed to be the reason of hip dysplasia. I have owned both showline and working line GSD.. the showline AWAYS had hip problems, the working line would live past 10 and still have excellent hips... coincidence... no.. Keep the GSD how they were intended to be!



This is my boy








West german show line. And has atleast a v rating and sg in very generation. He has a straight back, good angulation and is top of his class at the german shepherd dog club which is made up of mainly working line gsd. He excels in obedience and is by far the best in agility in his class. Don't even get me started on temperament.
Don't be a fool 
Your post is false and misleading.
There is good and bad in all lines.
Some lines do have more problems then others.
A good breeder loves the breed and will not do anything that will cause harm to it. A good breeder cares about his reputation and cares about his dogs
A good breeder will give you the best chance of getting what you want.
Don't get baited into the show vs work issue


----------



## ugavet2012

blackshep said:


> I didn't say she was fearful? Where did I say that? I said she had a lower prey drive threshold than I'd like.
> 
> Also, we don't do schutzhund anymore, although the group I trained with want me to bring her back, I don't have time to travel that far.
> 
> Can we get back on topic for the OP rather than attacking me and making this about you being a right fighter?
> 
> If you are doing protection sports and your dog has a very high threshold, there are those who would say, that is not ideal, because they aren't going to react to the decoy. She's be an amazing dog for a more experienced handler doing shutzhund (my group loved her), but I'm a novice who wanted to branch out to other sports, one of which is flyball which is too much for her.
> 
> My dog, for myself, has a bit too low a threshold. The schutzhund people I trained with love her, but it's not ideal for me in my real life, since it also means her prey drive (I do flyball) was off the charts and she would have a meltdown. Two totally different sports. What worked for one, did not work at all for the other.


I just wanted to let you know I know EXACTLY what you mean by this post as this is exactly how I would describe my GSD. She is very entertaining to watch in IPO, but not a good GSD in general, and she would be awesome at flyball if I could stop her from having a meltdown. I swear most of your posts about your dog sound so much like mine if I didn't know better I would think they are directed related but I highly doubt that. My dog is very hard to live with in general, and we have a love/hate relationship because there are parts of her temperament I love and parts I hate terribly. 

She is much harder to live with than either Malinois I have. 

Actually many would de scribe her as somewhat fearful/nervy but she is not a liability to do IPO with. The club I trained with in GA outside ATL would not have allowed me to train her if so. I have worked with her a ton to make sure she is not a liability in any way and I could most likely finish club level titles with her. I think it would be really sad if someone did not allow me to train with their club because my dog can be fearful. She has never tried to bite someone or ever even acted like she was going to. She is actually easier to handle by strangers than most peoples dogs in IPO I have been around who are not fearful.
Just adding in that Steve Strom's post is right on, because I understand exactly what black shep is trying to say because I could have written a post just like that about my own.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> I work with the average Joe pet owner every day and most of them can't even train a Shih Tzu or happy exuberant goober of a lab.


Quibbling here, but I think this is an extremely important thing to understand...GSDs, regardless of which lines they're descended from, should be among the most readily trained dogs there are. They should be overall easier to train than a lab & MUCH more easily trained than a Shih Tzu. About the only breeds that compare to the GSD in intelligence, ease of training & genetic obedience are Poodles & (possibly) Goldens. Uber, uber intelligent, sensitive, GREAT instincts & a drive to work with & please the owner are indispensible characteristics of the GSD.


----------



## qbchottu

Based on OP's needs and requirements, I would recommend a moderate to higher drive showline or a lower drive working dog - both need excellent on/off switches. 

As mentioned, find a trustworthy breeder, go out and see the dogs, meet the different lines, and make a decision based on your evaluation at that point.


----------



## Liesje

I don't think lines matter much here. There are many people, myself included, that have owned and trained both show line and working line dogs (and even some crosses) and it really boils down to the individual DOG. Find some good breeders that are respected in the breed community. If they don't have what you want, they will refer you to others that may.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Easier to find a moderate drive Showline then lower drive working line? Yes?

(Hi btw  )




qbchottu said:


> Based on OP's needs and requirements, I would recommend a moderate to higher drive showline or a lower drive working dog - both need excellent on/off switches.
> 
> As mentioned, find a trustworthy breeder, go out and see the dogs, meet the different lines, and make a decision based on your evaluation at that point.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Not quibbling, that's a good point.

My experience has been that GSDs are harder for average Joe pet owner because of their guarding/protection instincts and exercise needs. I had an ASL years ago and assortment of rescues in between having Ilda. She brought some drives, instincts to the table I hadn't dealt with in my other dogs. I needed the help of an experienced GSD trainer and am so lucky to live close by to one who has a wealth of experience, if I hadn't gotten that help.....

Then we got Autumn our Aussie and after Ilda she was so easy. That's what got me thinking about this in general.

Now Autumn is very smart and easily trained but she didn't bring as strong a guarding, natural suspicion or protection with her.

So I don't think it's so much about the intelligence but the other factors GSDs bring to the table which defeats a lot of less committed pet owners.

To be fair, I see people struggling with labs too, especially those with field lines that have higher energy and drives for hunting.

So I see your point but our GSDs bring qualities in that require more help, knowledge and commitment that a lot of people just aren't prepared to commit to.



RubyTuesday said:


> Quibbling here, but I think this is an extremely important thing to understand...GSDs, regardless of which lines they're descended from, should be among the most readily trained dogs there are. They should be overall easier to train than a lab & MUCH more easily trained than a Shih Tzu. About the only breeds that compare to the GSD in intelligence, ease of training & genetic obedience are Poodles & (possibly) Goldens. Uber, uber intelligent, sensitive, GREAT instincts & a drive to work with & please the owner are indispensible characteristics of the GSD.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Btw, that increased level of commitment could apply to other breeds such as Presa's and cane Corso's for example, they bring genetic drives and instincts that require more dedication, knowledge and training skills.


----------



## Liesje

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Easier to find a moderate drive Showline then lower drive working line? Yes?
> 
> (Hi btw  )


Often it seems we jump straight to drive. Now I do work all my dogs in multiple sports and have done SchH/IPO, but drive is never the most important thing to me. My dogs are still pets 95% of their time and mine. As long as there is some drive, I can generally get the results I want, and I am someone who is actively training dogs and competing every month. If the OP is not into dog sports or working a dog, it's even less important. The most important things to me are nerve, threshold, and off-switch. I want dogs that aren't hackling and barking at every pedestrian, are safe with my extended family and friends (and I don't mean "safe" being supervised wearing an e-collar, I mean people can walk into our cottage or I can bring a dog to a family BBQ and turn him loose), and I want dogs that will chill with me if I'm sick on the couch for a week. I wouldn't put too much focus on drive if the OP doesn't have a specific desire for sport. Look for dogs that are liveable. I have found the best balance so far in my WGSL 6 year old male, but not because I was looking for less drive. If I had to make a generalization, I'd say that unfortunately the SL dogs seem less likely to have the nerve component and I'm not sure if this is related, but sometimes act kind of hyper/unsettled in the house. I've known a few that are basically neurotic.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Fwiw, the points about being able to take the dog places like BBQ or visiting family and what not, I agree. 

Hopefully Ash will come back and expand on her thoughts about drive.

Ilda settles beautifully in the house. This is something I really value the last 4 months given my health situation I haven't been able to do much with her. I'm not going to say I'm an expert here, I'm not but ironically I'm around WLs more then showlines and their owners tell me about their house manners. Some are not so positive. I also keep a Czech dog from time to time and he's a great dog but he's a busy, busy guy. 

The irony here is (not directed at you Lies) is that the generalizations made about SLs are often contradicted in threads like this.

I think if we are going to generalize about one line, then be prepared to accept generalizations about the other. 

To a certain point there is truth about the differences found generally in the different lines....that's what drives people to have preferences for one line over the other.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

...and with that I'm going to bow out of this thread. 

I don't want to become annoying, err, or more annoying.  

It's all good. I'm glad that with research and care the right dog can always be found.


I wish the OP all the best in his/her puppy search, no matter the line.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Trust me...I'd rather be out tracking.....can't right now.


----------



## qbchottu

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Easier to find a moderate drive Showline then lower drive working line? Yes?
> 
> (Hi btw  )


Yes I would say so ime

Hi back


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Cool. I happen to know a good breeder to find one of those type of showlines.. ..when I'm all fixed up and back on my feet. 

Check your FB messages too....





qbchottu said:


> Yes I would say so ime
> 
> Hi back


----------

