# Do you train a "Look at me" command?



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I've said over and over that teaching a GSD to focus, or to "look at me" is something I've never done or needed to do, because that's their default. And in fact, I'd never even thought about it before joining this forum and reading about it.

But the more I've thought about it, the more I realized that I have always taught that! I just never put a word or command to it.

While on one hand I might have saved myself time and effort by teaching a focus or "look at me" command directly, on the other hand it seems valuable for my dogs to have learned that watching me closely was their own idea!

So I'm curious. How many teach a "look at me" command (by whatever name or word you use)??


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I definitely teach it. First with just rewarding eye contact (which I agree is automatic for my guy). We are only just putting a word to it.


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## Razzled (Nov 10, 2019)

I've just adopted a 5 yo and that is where I am starting. She knows many commands and responds, but doesn't really 'look' at me while responding or for direction. I think it will help with the bonding and I'm using food. Even then, responds best when she is hungry, before a meal.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I teach it also.It's handy for asking for 100% focus at the beginning of a competitive event or walking through a crowd.But you're right Tim,our dogs pretty much keep close tabs on us all of the time.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

I’m working on it. But there’s no word to it. I just reward eye contact 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I sure do teach it! I put the word "watch me" on the behavior and reward it richly.
Sheilah


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I used to... when I was newer to the breed it was actually a member here that I got the idea from after observing her with her dogs. Keystone knows it but it’s used infrequently. Mainly for impulse control. I can’t remember when I added the command, started off just marking it.

When I started training guide dogs, that hard stare eye contact was discouraged for multiple reasons.... it was a hard habit for me to break, so I stopped doing it at home as well.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

We were taught the "look at me" "watch me " commands in puppy class with treats. In advanced class with a private trainer we just marked eye contact with a reward of a verbal yes. We don't use it much now and because we don't the verbal command itself isn't often obeyed. That said my girl "checks in" with eye contact on walks, play time and refresher training often without a prompt. Eye contact and focus gets a verbal reward often.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Yep, getting your dog's attention and getting them to focus on you, was actually the first thing the trainer taught in obedience class! 

I used it a lot to break Rumo's focus on other dogs when we were passing by them. I use it less now...but I still will praise and say ""Hi Rumo!" when he checks in with me on walks. ( I have no idea or memory when it happened, but somehow my "look at me" morphed into this weird little sound like "tsst" "tsst"... it seemed to work better than words for getting his attention. )


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I suspect that @Fodder and I have similar reasons for not wanting a fixated stare - i.e. watch me command - from a dog.

Focus, eye contact, full attention when appropriate, YES. Fixation or constant staring as in a focused heel no.

The big difference, for me at least, is when I'm around other dogs or walking through a crowd, the last place I want my dogs full attention is on me! I prefer she scan the crowd. 

Aware of me and our trajectory yes, changes in direction yes, a command from me yes, but otherwise survey all that's around us. Situational awareness, on the dog's part, is more important to me.

I get that training a focused heel is a good way to communicate to a dog when you want 100% focus and when you don't, when in sport competition. And some dogs execute it amazingly, and are a pleasure to watch in action! But outside of competition, do you find that commanded focus is useful??


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I expect my dog to look at me in a static and walking heel. This includes heeling with the dog being tapped by a clatter stick. Also in sits and down with me about 15' away while distractions are around and close to him.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I teach it, though I usually say, "Watch" which is then followed by a command (e.g., Sit, Come, Here, Down, etc.). Since we don't do formal OB (where that fixed stare would be appropriate), "Watch" is a signal that a command will follow that requires their immediate compliance. By contrast, I use "Look" when I want the dog to look where I'm pointing. (Nothing like having a dog sight down your arm at something, always makes me smile). "Look" also nicely sets the stage for "Find It" when we do nosework games.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I expect my dog to look at me in a static and walking heel. This includes heeling with the dog being tapped by a clatter stick. Also in sits and down with me about 15' away while distractions are around and close to him.


Chip, do you have an alternate command for just going for a walk in the neighborhood or in a park?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If I am going on or off the training field for bite work, and not doing so with a focused heel, I use the "walk" command which just means the dog has to be going forward and not pulling toward the decoy or barking, but is in control of himself. I see too many people coming out to do bite work and as soon as the dog sees the decoy, he goes crazy and I believe that leads to attention and control problems that are easily prevented by what I just described. If I am just out with my dog on leash, I don't tell him anything. He can walk where and however he wants as long as he is not pulling excessively. If you have ever seen video of the German show line dogs walking around the stadium out front of the handler, that is pretty much how he walks. Pretty much like the link below:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. If your dog is engaged with you then it's really not necessary.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

To clarify, if just walking in public, my dog walks in front of me. This is to keep it clear to him that focused heeling is always on the left.


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## KarmaPuppy (Nov 22, 2019)

I really paid attention to this last night. Every command i gave Karma she was always looking up at me. We were in the kitchen and Tiny Human came crawling in, so i got Karma to lay down to have her interact with TH. Even then Karma never looked away from me until TH tried crawling on top of her. Then she looked at TH, and then back at me as if saying "can you get this thing off me?!" TH is still learning puppies are there for FAR more than feeding from the high chair, and getting open mouth kisses lol.. But i'm VERY pleased how well Karma interacts with her


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I didn’t have to train that. In fact, I’d like to train a “not look at me” command...lol. When I wake up...he’s stares at me, when I shift on the couch...he stares at me, when I watch TV...he stares at me, when I go outside...he stares at me, when we play...he stares at me, when I’m in the bathroom...he stares at me, when I take a shower...he licks my leg and stares at me. ?

He has INCREDIBLE focus on me at all times. He craves engagement. I just say half his name, and his head whips around so fast.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have trained the look command with Max as a pup. It was used to train with distractions. I found later the leave it command worked a lot better then a look command in regards to other dogs out on walks or heavily traffic places like dog class  when On the move using only treats. When engaged using a ball as a reward we had a about 20 horses galloping past us without using any look command or a beach filled with many dogs. Max just has that inate focus and when engaged it is naturally maximized. you see any photo I take he has that really beautiful natural and great focus and that is all him. I think it may be his higher prey drive with his love for the ball as a reward that has that more dee per focus. I’m not sure but he is the most engaged dog I ever owned. Here is a photo of max and lunas natural focus of me walking into the room just not saying a word and snapping a photo- such nice natural focus. The second photo is just me calling their name. Same focus with verbal or non verbal.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Food for thought:


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Eye contact is required in schutzhund obedience, so yes, I teach a 'look at me' command. However, it is probably the thing I dislike the most about schutzhund obedience. A dog needs to have some awareness of what's going on around it, and should not be so very focused on the handler, IMO.

Look at me does make a great start for obedience, though, as it teaches the dog to ignore other dogs and people and not want to strain towards them to check them out. It's the first thing I teach if I have a dog that is pulling on the leash!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

When is eye contact required in Schutzhund obedience? I certainly don't want it in heeling. That causes the dog to wrap and forge. I dont' know anyone that trains that way anymore. It's very old school and outdated. I don't care if they are making eye contact in the sit or down as long as they are focused on me (my whole person). The ONLY time I make eye contact is on the front where I use my eyes to draw them in.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jorski said:


> Food for thought:


I teach my dogs to ignore distractions using the 'look at me' command, and in the beginning, treat them as a reward. I also use leash corrections for not obeying. There HAS to be a negative consequence for not obeying, because often the distraction is more rewarding than the treat!

If you watch that video, you will see Heinz achieve a miracle transformation of the dog-aggressive dog, but NOT show you how he did it. Just..y'know...high-level training. 

Then you see the shock collar on the dog's neck. Hmmm...oookay, so HE needed to use a negative reinforcer as well! 

I have achieved the SAME result as Heinz with the 'look at me' command and leash corrections, without needing to use a shock collar. I did it with two different dogs, both of whom had muzzle orders slapped on them by animal control for attacking other dogs. I used a prong collar as both dogs were large, strong adults, and I wanted to make sure I had full control of them.

My point is does it REALLY matter what method was used as long as it wasn't harmful to the dog, and achieved the desired goal of the dog walking nicely on the leash without straining towards another dog?

And part of my philosophy of training is I don't like gadgets. What happens if you drop the shock collar control? Lose your clicker in the long grass? I'd prefer to rely on my voice only, with treats as a reinforcer in the beginning, then phase them out once the dog knows what is expected. (There is a time and a place for shock collars, but if I can achieve what I want without them, that's what I'd prefer.)

I also noticed in the part of the video where he was doing protection work, he had a shock collar control hidden in his hand. No way of knowing if he used it, but it makes me think that is how he achieved the goal of the dog releasing the sleeve immediately on command.

I hate trainers like this, who tell you 'oh, what you're doing is all WRONG' then don't explain how THEY do it. It's usually because they want you to pay them money, THEN they will show you 'how it's done'!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jax, if that requirement has been changed for IPO (now called IPG) I will be VERY happy! But up until a year ago (when I quit training with my club, just before IPG came in) that was how EVERYONE in my part of the country trained!

Could you please show me proof of what you're saying? I'm not that familiar with the new rules.
I would like to get back into the sport at some future time, and don't want to be doing the 'wrong thing' when training on my own!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So how do you teach the Out, Sunsilver? I didn't realize you had so much experience in schutzhund. I would be interested to hear how as I have a dog with super high possession. Do you give a treat when they Out? A ball? How does that work when the sleeve has higher value than either?

How do you equate a difference from the prong to an ecollar? A prong is also a negative reinforcer. It's a gadget. Both are "compulsion" tools if used that way. Both can be tools used to build drive if used properly as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunsilver said:


> Jax, if that requirement has been changed for IPO (now called IPG) I will be VERY happy! But up until a year ago (when I quit training with my club, just before IPG came in) that was how EVERYONE in my part of the country trained!
> 
> Could you please show me proof of what you're saying? I'm not that familiar with the new rules.
> I would like to get back into the sport at some future time, and don't want to be doing the 'wrong thing' when training on my own!


It was NEVER a requirement for the dog to make eye contact. NEVER. It's not in the rules because it was NEVER in the rules. IGP came in Jan. 1, 2019. My dog was born in 2013. That's 6 years of training WITHOUT eye contact. Focus on the handler is not "eye contact required".


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jax, fortunately, my dog doesn't have super-high possession for the sleeve. If she doesn't out on command, usually a tug on the prong collar will out her. Sometimes she would even out automatically, when the decoy stopped and stood still.

A lot of people in the club do use shock collars. I think they are over-used in the sport, and I don't like them. It also took me quite awhile to be convinced I needed to use a prong on my dog, as in my previous club, the trainer was the old 'yank and crank' school, and he'd correct my old dog (different dog) so hard she'd sometimes bite him! 

I have yet to title a dog in IPO, so I don't pretend to be an expert. The way I look at training, though, is to use force ONLY when necessary, and use the minimum amount needed to achieve the goal.

Another thing I dislike about IPO is the attitude seems to be 'this is how you do it, and this is the RIGHT way'... So, they frowned at me for using treats for the focused heel. The RIGHT way was to tuck a ball or a tug under your arm, and get the dog to focus on that.

My training philosophy has always been: the RIGHT way is what WORKS for you and the dog. Every dog and every handler is different. Okay, I don't care for shock collars, but it's still a tool in my kit, and I DID use one when I was trying to rehab an extremely dog-aggressive dog. (No, it did NOT increase her level of aggression, and it was effective in getting her to back off from the other dog.)


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> I've said over and over that teaching a GSD to focus, or to "look at me" is something I've never done or needed to do, because that's their default. And in fact, I'd never even thought about it before joining this forum and reading about it.
> 
> But the more I've thought about it, the more I realized that I have always taught that! I just never put a word or command to it.
> 
> ...


I'm training it into Kias. I started a little late, but it's catching on slowly. I just say, "Kias, look at me." If he looks down I say "no", and he looks back up. Lot's a work to do still, but he's catching.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> I hate trainers like this, who tell you 'oh, what you're doing is all WRONG' then don't explain how THEY do it. It's usually because they want you to pay them money, THEN they will show you 'how it's done'!


I suppose the idea of paying them money is contingent on making a living as a dog trainer.......

I remember debating a member named Praeger ( sp ?) years ago about the significance of a dog maintaining eye contact......why not teach a dog to focus on my knee, hand or foot? It's all the same to a degree but as Praeger suggested verbal commands come from our mouth...so the eye contact/focus was important...I guess....beats me.

Even though I trained my dog to establish eye contact as a default behavior in many situations....it's more of a parlor trick or perhaps a step in a multi-step obedience task which might not actually need the eye contact to accomplish the same commanded obedience task.

The guy in the video makes great sense suggesting that simply having a dog not look at whatever sets it off is mostly folly.....just because the dog doesn't see it doesn't for a second mean that the dog isn't keenly aware of the triggers presence. Yeah....I get the notion of de-escalating the build up towards the dog going over threshold via the dog's intense visual locking on but I have had better success having my dog perform commanded obedience...such as a proper heel....versus having my dog look at me when she used to lose her crap during her dog reactivity baloney.

Whatever gets the job done I suppose...........

SuperG


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Just to check, those who don't or never had to teach a "watch" command or engagement, it just happened naturally? Because I have spent a lot of time teaching "watch," both at home, on walks, and at the park, as well as just rewarding him looking at me on walks. My GSD is highly focused on me _unless_ there is a distraction. There is almost always a distraction when I'm not at home. Other dogs, birds, the smells on the ground, etc.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunsilver said:


> Jax, fortunately, my dog doesn't have super-high possession for the sleeve. If she doesn't out on command, usually a tug on the prong collar will out her. Sometimes she would even out automatically, when the decoy stopped and stood still.
> 
> A lot of people in the club do use shock collars. I think they are over-used in the sport, and I don't like them. It also took me quite awhile to be convinced I needed to use a prong on my dog, as in my previous club, the trainer was the old 'yank and crank' school, and he'd correct my old dog (different dog) so hard she'd sometimes bite him!
> 
> ...



You were obviously at the wrong club. Any higher level competitor is using treats to put the foundation for heeling on a dog. Every Single One. Including the 2015 WUSV champion. A toy comes in as a reward and lure later. And the judges are now dinging dogs whose butts are dragging the ground and whose heads are at 90 deg from the ground.

There is no "right" way. It changes for every dog. To be honest, I was very fortunate to be with the trainers I was, or am now. There are wrong ways though. I agree that force and corrections should not be the primary training tool. Training should be 95% positive and 5% corrections. If you need more than that, you are doing something wrong or the dog is not suited to the sport. Training is moving far away from that and force is "old school". the judges want happy dogs and you can tell which dogs have a ton of pressure on them and which ones do not.

You can use a prong and an ecollar many different ways. It can be strictly compulsion. Or it can be paired with food and used to build drive. I'm going that on the track right now. I was taught to do that with obedience. Light pops mean there is food or a ball coming. 

As far as electric- Most people use electric for outs at some point. My male rarely had to have it . My girl is absolutely going to have it. Her possession is crazy high and no matter how much two ball you play, there is still conflict every time that command is given. Once electric is involved and it's totally black and white to her, the conflict will go away.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CactusWren said:


> Just to check, those who don't or never had to teach a "watch" command or engagement, it just happened naturally? Because I have spent a lot of time teaching "watch," both at home, on walks, and at the park, as well as just rewarding him looking at me on walks. My GSD is highly focused on me _unless_ there is a distraction. There is almost always a distraction when I'm not at home. Other dogs, birds, the smells on the ground, etc.


 I think in some cases. In every day life, my boy would just naturally sit in front of me and watch me. My girl is watching what is in my hands. I did teach her to look at me in a sit and down because it settled her. She was squirreling around in anticipation of the food in my hand. @Sunsilver - here is an example of the dogs needing different things in IPO training.

My previous girl was taught LAT, and one component of that is to look back at me after looking but that was due to dog aggression and reactivity.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

_You were obviously at the wrong club._ Yup. That's the main reason I quit.

_There is no "right" way. It changes for every dog. Training should be 95% positive and 5% corrections. 
The judges want happy dogs and you can tell which dogs have a ton of pressure on them and which ones do not._

True, true and OH so VERY true! Some dogs are practically cringing as they do their routine! 

_As far as electric- Most people use electric for outs at some point. _I haven't needed it yet, but my dog is an absolute joy to train! She loves the sleeve - will even walk over to it and WAG HER TAIL if it's lying on the ground, but her desire to please me is enough that she will out with very little pressure. So, not saying 'never'! But this is the only sport I'm aware of that routinely uses shock collars, so I am really questioning if they aren't being over-used


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's not the only sport. Pet people use them. AKC people use them. 

Our sport IS the only one that has an exercise where the possession is as high as it is. What other sport has dogs at the level of drive and has dogs were possession is desired? I think that is the difference you are seeing. And, an ecollar, when used correctly takes the emotion out of the correction. 

I would rather see that than the woman beating her dog coming out of a Rally ring beccause the dog was more interested in the husband on the side line. Or the IPO person in Europe where ecollars are not allowed who swung his dog at the end of the leash over his head before throwing him. Or the IPO person that I witnessed here in the states that picked up his dog, screamed in his face and then threw him.

Yup...ecollars are actually the least of my concerns as far as corrections go.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

CactusWren said:


> Just to check, those who don't or never had to teach a "watch" command or engagement, it just happened naturally? Because I have spent a lot of time teaching "watch," both at home, on walks, and at the park, as well as just rewarding him looking at me on walks. My GSD is highly focused on me _unless_ there is a distraction. There is almost always a distraction when I'm not at home. Other dogs, birds, the smells on the ground, etc.


I think a lot of times people think their dog "knows" a given command and then don't practice enough around distractions to really instill the idea that obedience in any environment is not optional. It takes time and practice!

I have had really good results teaching both verbal and hand commands. Mixing them up. I alternate so the dog has to watch me. I also like to teach my dogs that my command trumps all others. It doesn't take long before a dog realizes that they need to look at me for direction. I don't reward the look, and I don't put a command to it, but it is a requirement. 

Here she is practicing a long down stay at the dog park. I released her with a hand signal from 100' feet away...

But I practice obedience inside and outside of dog parks, and a favorite of mine is practicing where there are dogs barking and carrying on behind a fence. Inside and outside at home depot or tractor supply stores etc. No dog is going to learn to focus "naturally" without being taught!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I suppose the idea of paying them money is contingent on making a living as a dog trainer.......
> 
> I remember debating a member named Praeger ( sp ?) years ago about the significance of a dog maintaining eye contact......why not teach a dog to focus on my knee, hand or foot? It's all the same to a degree but as Praeger suggested verbal commands come from our mouth...so the eye contact/focus was important...I guess....beats me.
> 
> ...


I remember that thread:








Am I cheating ?


I've been greatly inspired by some of the IPO videos I have seen as well as videos of forum members with their dogs who have this common bond developed with their dogs. My first 2 GSDs I never really dealt with developing this focus and attention which some have trained their dogs to...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Sunsilver, I have seen the results of your training. Unfortunately I would say the reason for your short comings is due to you not having control of her. Even the judge talked about the lack of focus and engagement at her BH.

As for trainers talking to you and 'only in it for the money' even just chatting with you - you would not take other competitors advice that was given in good faith/ sportsmanship. You were too busy coming up with excuses as to the "why" there was a problem.

Not everyone in your part of the country trains with the dog giving eye contact. I am very involved in this part of Ontario's SchH/IPO/IGP community and have been for over 10 years.

I understand what you are saying but your also making claims that are untrue or very uneducated/inexperienced.

I am sorry to say that publicly but you are making comments about trainers in our area that I feel are inaccurate and in my experience probably not with full understanding of a why those suggestions were being made to you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CactusWren said:


> Just to check, those who don't or never had to teach a "watch" command or engagement, it just happened naturally? Because I have spent a lot of time teaching "watch," both at home, on walks, and at the park, as well as just rewarding him looking at me on walks. My GSD is highly focused on me _unless_ there is a distraction. There is almost always a distraction when I'm not at home. Other dogs, birds, the smells on the ground, etc.


A watch command in the way its being discussed, using eye contact isn't really the same as what you'd think of as engagement. In this context, eye contact is more like a crutch when you or your dog aren't confident and you want to avoid something. Play with and train away from distractions, introduce them later when you can show your dog what to do and exactly what not to do.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Sunsilver, I have seen the results of your training. Unfortunately I would say the reason for your short comings is due to you not having control of her. Even the judge talked about the lack of focus and engagement at her BH.
> 
> As for trainers talking to you and 'only in it for the money' even just chatting with you - you would not take other competitors advice that was given in good faith/ sportsmanship. You were too busy coming up with excuses as to the "why" there was a problem.
> 
> ...


Huh.I was getting the impression that maybe it was Canada that was a little "different"


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Nope. Haha..


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I remember that thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Steve,

It was a good thread for me as it was a turning point in how I interacted with my dog and her less than solid nerves.......eyes/watch obedience was not enough to get her through the gauntlet back then and most likely the same today. I still go out most every day with my dog and look for other dogs so I can continually test her......I rely on her adherence to commanded obedience rather than having her stare at me....her focus on a simple tight heel per my command navigates her through her previous freak-outs. I suppose it could all be the same if I instilled the eyes fixation training but a simple heel just made much more sense....perhaps I put more "gravity" into her compliance regarding a heel vs her "eyes" .

Happy New Year to you Steve,


SuperG


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I remember that thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for looking up that thread Steve! What a great discussion!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> When is eye contact required in Schutzhund obedience? I certainly don't want it in heeling. That causes the dog to wrap and forge. I dont' know anyone that trains that way anymore. It's very old school and outdated. I don't care if they are making eye contact in the sit or down as long as they are focused on me (my whole person). The ONLY time I make eye contact is on the front where I use my eyes to draw them in.


I disagree that a focused heel is old school and that teaching it is what causes a dog to wrap and forge. Teaching a focused heel incorrectly causes a dog to wrap and forge and different factors can cause it like poor timing with reinforcment, reinforcing the dog when it is wrapping, releasing the toy forward as opposed to the side or having the dog come behind you and to your right to win the toy, poor rear end awareness due to not teaching it, etc. How do you explain dogs with a very focused heel that don't wrap or forge? Teaching a dog to heel exactly how you want, especially with a correct focused heel is one of the most difficult behaviors to train correctly. I want my dog looking at my face the whole time, especially on turns and about turns without any head drops.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

How do you edit? A focused heel is very advantageous in PSA, when after the PDC, decoys are on the field trying to distract your dog in obedience and protection, trying to get them to bite when they are not allowed.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

I think we are talking about two things here.

1. Focused heel
2. Eye contact during heel

In a focused heel, the dog is engaged and position can be taught in a few different ways that is still correct to the rules.
A.) "Mal style" with head up straight, focused being taught usually out front (higher up in front) of the dogs face.
B.) A more relaxed head position where dogs focus is usually on face (not eye contact) or underarm pit. This seems to be more GSD style. It's easier for our dogs to to it this way in terms of structure it seems.

I can't figure out how to post photos on my phone as both my girls were taught one way (new pup has heel more focus out front).

Eye co tact during heeling definitely causes forging.. How could it not? If you are using proper body positioning yourself (looking forward, back straight) then the dog must wrap it's head around to properly give eye contact.

Neither will disqualify you but you may not score as high with certain judges because it can through positioning off. 

I have been lucky enough to work with a few world competitors and also chat with a few judges and they have all taught their heels with focus on object or to a specific part on their body but not so much eye contact during their heeling. If I can figure out how to post pictures I will do that tonight after work.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

In reality, the dog might give the appearance of looking at the handler's eyes, but you don't know for sure where the dog is exactly looking, but the illusion is the dog is looking at the handler's eyes. If my dog's eyes dart to the side, he gets a stim. And it does not cause forging. It will cause it if the foundation training teaches the dog to be in the incorrect position (too far forward in the static heel) from the beginning.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> How do you edit?


Chip, to edit a post you click on the 3 dots that show up in the post heading. You'll see the post number followed by a timestamp then the dots. 

It's sort of odd, but that brings up a little pop-up menu with "edit" being the only option on your own posts. If you click on the dots on a post from someone else the pop-up menu has 2 options: moderate images and report.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Thanks


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Is this dog forging or wrapping?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Click on "Watch this video on YouTube" to watch.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I disagree that a focused heel is old school and that teaching it is what causes a dog to wrap and forge.


Absolutely NO WHERE did I say a focused heel was old school and causes a dog to wrap. That is not what I said. Please read what I said again. 

I said eye contact is NOT a requirement for Schutzhund as was stated above. It was never a rule or requirement. 

I said teaching the dog to look at your eyes while heeling can cause a dog to wrap and forge. That's not an opinion. I do not know a single person that teaches a dog to look into their eyes while heeling. That is an old school technique. If you still do it....you do you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I disagree that a focused heel is old school and that teaching it is what causes a dog to wrap and forge. Teaching a focused heel incorrectly causes a dog to wrap and forge and different factors can cause it like poor timing with reinforcment, reinforcing the dog when it is wrapping, releasing the toy forward as opposed to the side or having the dog come behind you and to your right to win the toy, poor rear end awareness due to not teaching it, etc. How do you explain dogs with a very focused heel that don't wrap or forge? Teaching a dog to heel exactly how you want, especially with a correct focused heel is one of the most difficult behaviors to train correctly. I want my dog looking at my face the whole time, especially on turns and about turns without any head drops.


Eye contact going two ways, you and the dog, so "Old School" is the handler twisting and turning to maintain the eye contact and with it, control. Wrapping, forging, or bumping and crowding doesn't always come from the dog trying to make eye contact. There can be as many different reasons as there are dogs. For me, I don't find teaching correct heeling all that difficult. Its the maintaining it after a couple of trials I've had trouble with.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jax08,
In the video of Qvido I posted, is the dog looking at the handler's eyes or approximately looking at the handler's eyes. I don't know and don't think it matters. The dog appears to be looking at the handler's eyes and that style of heeling does not cause wrapping or forging if taught correctly. What would it look like if a dog was looking into the handler's eyes to you? Are you saying the dog has to wrap and actually look into the handler's face head on? How would you ever know if a dog was actually looking into the handler's eyes unless the handler was always looking at the dog?
Steve,
If maintaining "correct" heeling after a couple trials is an issue, doesn't that suggest it is either difficult or you need to adjust your training, as you would expect with more training more improvement would come.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, I'm working and you all have way more time on your hands than I do apparently so I'm not going to watch any videos.

I'm not saying any of that. YOU are. You are taking what I said and arguing a point that I never said using an example of a world champion just so you can argue a point that isn't what I said. LOL

I've seen videos of Qvido's foundation heeling. Showing a video of a finished picture to prove your point, proves nothing.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You always train for improvement, but in the moment of an actual trial there's just times you have your fingers crossed. Some dogs figure out the differences in your handling as hard as you may try to be consistent with how you trained it. I don't know anything about PSA, but in Schutzhund there's a lot of heeling between exercises so what I've tended to have problems with is keeping the heeling focused between the exercises. Correct probably wasn't the right term, because I've never failed obedience, more just the head dropping but staying in position.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ckai said:


> I teach a verbal “look at me” command with feeding until I get an automatic focus before setting the dishes down. I mainly use nonverbal training, which does confuse other dog owners, but I’ve found nonverbal training to be much easier to train. For instance, if we are all in the backyard and play time is over, they rush to the back door. I walk up, and won’t touch the door until they back off. Not a word spoken. They look up at me, back up, and sit. Never once had to use a verbal or hand cue to teach that. I use the same method in most things. The exception would be recall, and even then I don’t use a word, I use either a hand clap or whistle. Hand clap means come on, and they know they can make their way towards me, but it’s not a rush. A whistle (with my mouth, not an actual whistle) means stop whatever the heck you’re doing and come ASAP. I find it easier, and the dog is more in tune with you, because they aren’t listening for commands, they are watching your body language and communicating that way, similar to how we read a dogs body language to see what it’s feeling or thinking. Yes, some people think I’m a downright weirdo, but my dogs have all been well trained and well behaved, with great recall and focus.


Dogs are quick to pick up on subtle physical/visual cues. It will over ride verbal, that's why you've found it easier. Responding to verbal without physical is generally where things get a little tougher.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ckai said:


> Is there a necessity for a verbal command? Not being snarky at all, genuinely curios. I have trained verbal in my earlier dog years, and I felt like I never got the bond I get when I train nonverbally. When I did competition, there was a level of verbal communication, but I stopped competing well over 10yrs ago, and prefer the level of focus and bond I get with nonverbal. Are there pro’s and con’s for training either way?


In life its always the behavior that matters and its probably impossible to one extent or another, not cue your dog physically. Other then sport, or handling in some formal venues, verbal only gives me a little more of a feeling that specific things are definitely trained, not just a response to a situation. So like with sit. Dog learns to always sit because you stop walking, maybe doesn't always mean he knows what sit is. I say "Sit when he's 10' in front of me not looking at me and he sits. I feel more confident he knows that actual behavior no matter what.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jax,
You said training eye contact in heeling causes a dog to wrap and forge. All I'm saying is I disagree. I was trying to clarify what you mean by eye contact. Is eye contact different than looking at the handler's face or looking in the direction of his eyes. I believe forging and wrapping are caused by other factors.
Steve,
One thing that can lead to a dog coming down in drive in heeling in IGP (because, as you stated, there is so much of it) is a foundation of excessive teasing up with the toy to get the dog in drive. In trial, the toy goes away and the dog quickly comes down in drive after a short time. Proper fading of the toy is another factor. Regarding your comment about dogs reading their handler, the handler has to be aware of maintaining his animation or the dog might come down in drive if the handler because less animated during the lengthy heeling.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Steve,
> One thing that can lead to a dog coming down in drive in heeling in IGP (because, as you stated, there is so much of it) is a foundation of excessive teasing up with the toy to get the dog in drive. In trial, the toy goes away and the dog quickly comes down in drive after a short time. Proper fading of the toy is another factor. Regarding your comment about dogs reading their handler, the handler has to be aware of maintaining his animation or the dog might come down in drive if the handler because less animated during the lengthy heeling.


The drive didn't drop. And its not from the fading of the toy. More along the lines of "There's a lot of different people here, I remember this now. Where are those darn dumbells" Again, I don't know PSA, but in IPO you get dinged for animation. The judges call it Handler Help.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I am not referring to handler help, but more of your energy level and body language. What kind of distractions do you expose your dog to while training heeling?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I am not referring to handler help, but more of your energy level and body language. What kind of distractions do you expose your dog to while training heeling?


I've had my older Shepherd do retrieves 5' from a playing Mariachi band. Heeling to and away. Trial Wise is a lot more then distractions. Different dogs, different reasons.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ckai said:


> I mainly use nonverbal training, which does confuse other dog owners, but I’ve found nonverbal training to be much easier to train. For instance, if we are all in the backyard and play time is over, they rush to the back door. I walk up, and won’t touch the door until they back off. Not a word spoken. They look up at me, back up, and sit.


That's basically default behavior, I haven't heard of it referred to as nonverbal training before. Whether you initially train it verbally or not, eventually the dog learns to offer certain behaviors under certain circumstances in order to get the desired result. They default to it because they know it works - you won't open the door until everyone backs away and sits. I like default behaviors too, I consider that part of basic house rules. They know to wait at doors until invited to go through, to sit while I put food bowls down and look at me until released to eat, etc. 



Ckai said:


> Is there a necessity for a verbal command? Not being snarky at all, genuinely curios. I have trained verbal in my earlier dog years, and I felt like I never got the bond I get when I train nonverbally. When I did competition, there was a level of verbal communication, but I stopped competing well over 10yrs ago, and prefer the level of focus and bond I get with nonverbal. Are there pro’s and con’s for training either way?


Personally, I think having both verbal commands and hand signals for various behaviors is beneficial, and neither preclude also having default behaviors, however you choose to train them. If you don't compete in anything and as such are not constrained by the rules of any particular sport then it probably doesn't matter. Hand signals are typically easier to train than verbal commands since our dogs are masters of body language and much more in tune with our posture, tone of voice, and movement than we are with theirs, but that only gets you so far if your dog isn't actually looking at you or can't see you. A lure motion can be faded to a hand signal, and from there, the motion can be associated with a verbal cue. Default behaviors are great for a generally well behaved dog but I don't see how they'd translate well to competition. 

But if you don't think you need to teach verbal commands, then don't. What's "necessary" for one person isn't necessarily important for everyone.


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