# Constant collar corrections while heeling?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

My good friend ponyfarm sent me this video last night. It's very interesting. I wondered if anyone could explain the training technique while heeling (she does it a couple times throughout the video). She issues constant collar pops while the dog is heeling. This is very strange to me... I've definitely never seen anything like this. Can anyone provide clarity on what she _might_ be trying to accomplish?






I don't know much about schutzhund, but I do think I've seen videos where people will issue nagging corrections to the dog while doing a bark and hold. I believe they use this to agitate the dog in order to.... well, I'm not sure. But perhaps this is a similar theory?


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

LOVE the ball work!!! I swear around the 1 min mark she's using her tail to keep her balance and up on the ball.

I THINK what you are seeing with the leash (at 1:35 and 3 min ) isn't nagging. I don't think it's even being used to have the dog 'heel'.

What I THINK is going on is she's having the leash popping feeling LINK to the positive and the treats. The dog is targeting and heeling on the treat in her hand, the handler has her hand on the leash/collar and popping it but I don't see that in any way linked with the actual heeling behavior the dog is doing. Almost like the pup is learning it's job (heeling with head up) and being able to do it while working thru and caring less about the leash/collar situation.

I believe this is a HUGE help later when you don't (can't?) use nearly as many treats in training and you are having to rely more on the leash/collar. Because of such an early link with the 'corrections' to a GOOD thing and a POSITIVE thing the dog will be able to think and work thru the problem (the real correction) and keep driving and learning without the instant food feed back.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> LOVE the ball work!!! I swear around the 1 min mark she's using her tail to keep her balance and up on the ball.
> 
> I THINK what you are seeing with the leash (at 1:35 and 3 min ) isn't nagging. I don't think it's even being used to have the dog 'heel'.
> 
> ...


This. 

I didn't view this as constant nagging corrections at all. I think she is eventually going to use the leash taps as a positive influence for keeping the dogs head up and straight, like a motivational tool. I think if she were giving a constant nagging correction, it would be in the opposite direction. I think that a correction is used to try and fix an unwanted behavior, whereas these motivational taps are used to keep the dog going. 

I can't really put into words what I'm trying to say, lol. Basically, I just think she's using it as a motivational tap forward rather than a correction.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I think that's a really interesting theory. If she wants the dogs head up, she wouldn't correct down. The fact she's popping upwards to me _is_ correcting the dog. She's nagging the dog to keep his head up. I don't see the point at all.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

leash and collar with same play as a sensitive hand and horse with bit -- line of communication


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well it is not a correction -- she is using little light stimulation from the collar and the dog is experiencing positive input , same as if she had taken her fingers and given a quick tickle -- 
when I do my dogs I use chain collar that is almost jewellery necklace fine and the leash could be lightest nylon -- it is not for restraint it is another communication tool.

One training session that I held , last time I had a group was - dogs off leash -- that forces the handler to create a bond and interest . I did have light bamboo sticks , so on a turn as the dog was going into a right turn (and had to travel more than the handler) a light touch , no more than taking your index finger of right hand and touching left , was given and the dog would spring up with energy . They enjoyed this . got great results , better understanding of the handlers to their dogs .

I think this woman on the video is amazing. Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> I think that's a really interesting theory. If she wants the dogs head up, she wouldn't correct down. *The fact she's popping upwards to me is correcting the dog.* She's nagging the dog to keep his head up. I don't see the point at all.


But she's not. Popping or correcting.

To me, the 'heeling and head up' is being done 100% with her hand position and past training with the pup.

To me, what you are seeing with the leash/collar is an entirely different part of the training. NOT being used to have the pup heel or keep it's head up.

I think the handler is trying to get the pup used to the feel of the leash/collar and connect any tension/movement (popping) as a POSITIVE and fun thing. So having the leash on, collar on, handler using her hand on it, is just more of the crazy wonderful happy world of training with my handler.

So later, when training is more difficult (serious) and the handler is no longer able to talk all the time, and use so many tons of constant treats and ONLY has the collar/leash to rely on, the dog will not avoid or shut down or SLOW down because training isn't fun any more. 

I know I had a trainer a few years ago who wanted us to do this with the prong collar. She literally had us sit our dogs in front of us with a prong collar on and leash connected. Then hold the leash straight up and give gentle upward pops with the leash and CLICKING/treating each time. The ONLY thing we were training (though we were getting great attention and head up from the dog) was the connection being 100% positive with a leash pop. We just stood in front of our dogs and popped (really gentle, in no way a correction but it would close the prongs a bit) click/treat, pop/click/treat, pop/click/treat.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

But it's not a correction. It's just little taps on the prong or jingling the collar as motivation and to reinforce her correct head position. I guess you could call it nagging if you'd like. It's sort of like a constant reminder to keep the head up. There is no negative association (which you can tell clearly just by seeing that dog) which is what would make it a correction.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Have you watched her other videos? She explains a bit more in her earlier videos with her Golden, Saucy.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

No I haven't watched her other videos. I'll have to do that...


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Wow, what a great, enthusiastic, joyful female! She seems super smart!


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

That video is a Prime example of excellent puppy foundation work. The light leash popping is perfectly fine, it is the beginning of a technique called NEPOPO. Excellent dog and excellent trainer.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

A pop on a collar, even a pinch, does NOT automatically equate to a correction. In this video, those are most certainly not corrections.

Frequent light pops can be used to stimulate drive and energy, and channel that to a specific focal point. This is exactly what is happening here. This is nothing new, and the general technique has been around for ages. There are many different variations on it, but all are similar and work from that same premise. Very commonly used in high level obedience, and also has some applications in other things (such as barking in protection as was mentioned.)


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Packen said:


> That video is a Prime example of excellent puppy foundation work. The light leash popping is perfectly fine, it is the beginning of a technique called NEPOPO. Excellent dog and excellent trainer.


I wouldn't necessarily assume this is Bellon's version. He didn't invent it and many, many trainers in all sorts of venues have been using variants of it for a long time.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Interesting stuff! While it might not be a new technique, it's new to me. I'll have to read up on this. NEPOPO <-- thanks Packen!


----------



## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

It's a very enjoyable video indeed! Thanks for sharing. I can't answer your question, sorry 

I was always under the impression that when doing this kind of work you shouldn't do command after command. I'm guessing since the dog is so advanced that it's ok. When I work with my two they begin doing all their commands all at once without me even asking them to. I think they get excited for treats or confused (I'm not sure)...

In any case, these kind of videos are so inspirational!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no I don't think it is the Bellons thing. 

think more of neural brain connections -- like a student who reads to recall and has some scent , rosemary for instance, introduced at the same time . That scent will create a double route to information -- help with recall because you have more activity in the brain . The more connections the better. 

The little stimulation , whether a "mosquito" touch from a stick, or the tickle of the collar , the slight movement , waken areas of the brain helping focus

some advances in education show that kids, boys in particular learn better when they are moving , clapping hands, in dance circle, chanting - than sitting like lumps in a chair .
You see this in therapy as well. When my dad had to have a speach therapist because of damage from an accident suffered , the therapist would sit across from him and keep passing one of those squeezy balls back and forth. When she asked him to think about something she asked him to hold the ball and squeeze it , when he could reply he handed the ball to her .

Kids who learn the inky dinky spider with all the hands up in the air and mimicking the spider going up the spout will learn the words quicker than sitting and reading it several times.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've trained with Bridget a few times and the collar "jingle" _is_ to keep the dog engaged and focused. 

She also has a few different methods using food as a correction....pushes it into the dogs nose while backing up the dog to stop creeping in a stand. She asks for three behaviors before rewarding as it shows the dog is giving effort. 
When she does give a correction she gets the dog right back into drive before continuing obedience. She has some great techniques on getting enthusiasm and I've seen how well it works....instead of 'factory work' mindset, the dogs are happy to do competitive AKC obedience. 
Bridget has a great video up on her fb page of her dog Streaker in the GR nationals/novice debut. Streaker looked so happy!
What is so amazing about Bridget, is she will travel 3 hours to do workshops and work with everyone for 12 hours with enthusiasm.

She has a grooming business, does IPO, AKC obedience, hunt tests too....very busy lady!


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> I've trained with Bridget a few times and the collar "jingle" _is_ to keep the dog engaged and focused.


Thanks for replying with first-hand experience!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Didn't look like corrections, popping, or nagging to me. What she's doing would not even register to GSDs as a "nag", lol (well, maybe to Coke the softie that would be a nag), and I suspect the same is true for this dog. I've done something like this before with Kenya, Pan, and Nikon and at times I wonder if it really helps *me* more than the dog. Constant motion and being able to use my hands helps *me* stay enthusiastic. I can't say that the technique is really beneficial over any other when it comes to training my dogs, but the communication can't hurt! Now that I think about it, this technique worked the best with Kenya. She's a softer dog but also a dog that feeds off of me and affirmation. She will work for treats (not toys at all) but the presence of food is not what really gets her in drive, it's the constant communication with me. That is why she was exhausting to train and handle in agility!


----------



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

I loved the video, it was so fun to watch them both having so much fun.



MaggieRoseLee said:


> B
> 
> So later, when training is more difficult (serious) and the handler is no longer able to talk all the time, and use so many tons of constant treats and ONLY has the collar/leash to rely on, the dog will not avoid or shut down or SLOW down because training isn't fun any more.


Yeah I wish I did the same thing with my dog even if I never used corrections durring training.. my shuts down even when I accidently do some movement that seems like a leash pop.


----------



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

I just signed up for a working slot at a seminar given by this trainer! I cant wait!!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

ponyfarm said:


> I just signed up for a working slot at a seminar given by this trainer! I cant wait!!


Make sure you take notes(and video). So many great training tips are thrown out during sessions to remember. Even though it is a long day, watching the others and working through their 'issues' is so worth it.
Have you been working w/ Bridget's methods already?


----------



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Make sure you take notes(and video). So many great training tips are thrown out during sessions to remember. Even though it is a long day, watching the others and working through their 'issues' is so worth it.
> Have you been working w/ Bridget's methods already?


I have just started watching some of her free videos. Wondering if it would be a good idea to get one of her videos and start working on her methods before the seminar..maybe we would get more out of it. I just dont want to do anything incorrectly.I am taking my collie who is just starting Open. Max, the puppy is def not ready..lol! Do you have any tips for me...its my first working spot at a seminar and I am nervous nellie..!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about doing anything incorrectly! I rented the vids she has from bowwowflix, and they helped me to see how she trains before I went to her seminar. My trainer also had been training with Bridget and worked with me to get going with her methods. So at least I was familiar with what she was doing, but I'm not into the competitive obedience so was a bit clueless! 

When I started w/ her method of 'are you key word'
I began it with every meal(I feed raw, so a bit harder) and ask for something, circles, turns, ups, sits whatever. 
In the beginning have high value food(I'm using frozen BilJac now)
and reward for one circle and have the dog drive into you or passed you for the reward, don't go forward to give it to the dog, the dog has to work for it and give effort. 
As the dog learns his effort will lead to reward wait for 3 behaviors before reward. Effort is the main thing, along with enthusiasm while giving that effort. 
That key word will bring the dog back into drive if you see s/he going flat. It's also used right after a correction. Bridget uses attrition in her program too. 
I started using "Are you hungry" as my key, but have changed it to "happy" So when I say the word happy, my dogs ears perk up and I can see him engage just with that word.
Like I said if you can watch all the sessions during the seminar, you'll learn so much. The past few times she's come to our group, I could only go in the later hours and had 3 working slots almost back to back. I'd rather go the whole day and spread out my times.


----------

