# Litter with anomalies. Need advice.



## NewGSDmomma (Jul 22, 2013)

We're in the process of purchasing a Gsd puppy for the first time.
Found the perfect breeder, truly could not be more highly recommended. 

Litter: 3 females, 5 males. 

Problem: 2 deceased male puppies, with a 3rd male that could either way. And, we're purchasing a male. All the females are fat, feisty and perfect. 

1st pup had megaesophogus complications, died around 5 weeks.
2nd pup had a heart murmur, found in seizure. Died yesterday @ 7 weeks.
3rd pup has Persistant Right Aortic Arch (PRAA). Breeder is bringing him in for surgery next week, seems to be thriving & doing well for now. 

*Questions*:
* Are there any tests we should have done prior to taking our pup home to ensure he doesn't have an undiscovered genetic issue?

* Anyone have experience owning a Gsd with PRAA? Outcome? Long term issues? Developmental delays? Physical restrictions? 

* Any other advice/ things to look for when purchasing a male out of this litter?


Again, this isn't a bad breeder deal. She's responsible, honest, & HIGHLY respected within the gsd community. This is the first breeding for both mom/dad. Dad is a champion. Dogs from this litter will receive limited AKC papers because of the genetic Problems. Due to the issues, she's requiring all pups spayed/neutered & the parents will also be fixed. I'd use/recommend her in the future without hesitation. 

Experienced thoughts/advice?


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Yikes! If you're still getting a pup I would get pet insurance and make sure congenital aliments are covered in your plan but hopefully you will never need it! Good luck


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

honestly, I would ask her to transfer my deposit to another litter.


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## Rbeckett (Jun 19, 2013)

NewGSDmomma said:


> We're in the process of purchasing a Gsd puppy for the first time.
> Found the perfect breeder, truly could not be more highly recommended.
> 
> 
> ...


All depends on what your intentions are for the dog. As a show dog I would pass since it already has a high mortality rate in the litter, but if the pup is a family, loyal pet type of dog then I would get her or him to a vet for a thorough check up with the understanding if they find any issues the dog is returnable for another pup from a different litter. If no congenital issues are found then I would take her home and wait till her first heat or later to get her spayed. If it is a male I would try to wait till the dog was full grown around the age of two before I got him neutered. Just my thoughts for a possibly genetically flawed animal that should not be in the show ring but working or being a big old dumb pet. Hope this helps.

Wheelchair Bob


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am going to guess that insurance coverage is not going to be likely for a pup that already had surgery for a congenital deformity............It is scary enough going home with a healthy pup from a robust litter....I don't know enough about it to know if other issues can be linked to this problem.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I can't answer how the others will turn out, obviously no one can.

Honestly, I would be very wary of taking a pup from this litter..One puppy loss I wouldn't worry about, but 3,,that's to high of a risk for me..But hey, the rest could be perfectly healthy..


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

ACK!!!

Any breeder can have bad luck with a litter, but I'd be very leary of getting a pup from that litter.

There going to be a big reduction in price? That will help with the future vet bills if you go in with your eyes wide open and fingers crossed.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I agree with Jocoyn, Jacoda and Dainerra:
Unless you have A LOT of money, time, and can take a possible heartbreak, wait and choose another litter! This one has RED FLAGS written all over it!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think it's great that the breeder is speutering all involved. 

Persistent Right Aortic Arch (PRAA) in Dogs

I am guessing I would join the Mega-E group and see if any of them have any input. megaesophagus : Megaesophagus I would also be talking to my vet. 

PRAA has good information - I know of a pup a few years ago who had this done and looks/acts/feels great. So that was a successful outcome.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Personally I wouldn't take a puppy from the litter, bad genetics is bad genetics. I'm glad the breeder is taking responsibilty but I still wouldn't want to take a puppy unless I had a huge savings which could be put towards future health care. Health insurance can be very helpful but there are limitations and I'd hate for them to find loopholes

I would either ask for the deposit to go to another litter or see if it can be refunded and look elsewhere if the timing is wrong with the current breeder


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

This person is experienced with Mega-E: http://www.piekasplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/A-Guide-To-Mega-Esophagus.pdf 

Example of care that needs to be given to a dog with Mega-E: 

“The first key to management is the type of food given to the dog. The goal is small, frequent meals. *Young dogs or small dogs may need 4-6 meals per day.”*

“At a minimum, dogs should be *fed in a position that is as close to vertical as possible, then kept in that position for 15-45 minutes after feeding”*

“As discussed below, aspiration of food is a constant risk. Likewise, most veterinary professionals agree that mega-E dogs are immune-compromised”

[FONT=&quot]“Primary mega-E cannot be cured via surgery or medicine. It can often be managed in a way that greatly decreases the amount of regurgitation that occurs. Management of mega-E can be taken to what some people would consider as extreme. Some people even go so far as to install a PEG tube (a feeding tube)to minimize the chance for regurgitation. My personal goal is to control the regurgitation as best I can, while still providing my dog excellent quality of life and the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]opportunity to “be a dog.”[/FONT]


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I am going to guess that insurance coverage is not going to be likely for a pup that already had surgery for a congenital deformity............It is scary enough going home with a healthy pup from a robust litter....I don't know enough about it to know if other issues can be linked to this problem.


Two additional alive males she does not mention any previous surgery on...?


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## NewGSDmomma (Jul 22, 2013)

No, the other 2 males appear to be fine. Just wondering if there are genetic tests that can be preformed to make sure they continue to be fine.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

I don't know of any tests that can be performed now but it seems unlikely, best person to answer that would be your vet 

If it was me I would pass on getting a puppy from this litter. I am on my second GSD with health issues and had enough to last me a lifetime. Of course on the other hand I feel bad for the puppies 

If you are still considering taking a puppy and yours hasn't been diagnosed with any issues I would sign up for health insurance *NOW!!!* We have PetPlan which I can really recommend but there are others of course. With PetPlan there is a two week waiting period and if the puppy gets diagnosed with any health issues during those two weeks they will be considered pre-existing.

Depending on the issues the puppy has it can become expensive real quick, so you have to ask yourself if you have the funds to take care of a dog maybe the rest of his life. Besides the money issue it can also be heartbreaking at times. I wish you good luck and hope it works out for you.

Here is a post on health insurance where I added up how much PetPlan has reimbursed us so far, it may help you decide. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-insurance-recommendations-3.html#post3890890

Michaela


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

All these conditions can be tested for. I would want full xrays, mega-e along with numerous congenital heart conditions can be seen. I would also want a consult with a cardiologist and an echocardiogram. 

If those all come up normal than you've ruled out the conditions that have caused the 3 ailments so far.

Its VERY concerning though - when a dog has 1 genetic ailment it's likely there are more. Now you have 3 sick dogs with potentially 3 different ailments 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think you would be waiting for something to go wrong- epilepsy, hip dysplasia , DM (well you can test for that now) auto-immune .


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## NewGSDmomma (Jul 22, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Its VERY concerning though - when a dog has 1 genetic ailment it's likely there are more. Now you have 3 sick dogs with potentially 3 different ailments
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Exactly! And that's what concerns me. 
Carmen pm'd earlier & as I told (him/her ), if it were a matter of just commonsense, I know the right answer. Pass! 

It would just be great to hear from others that have had litters with similar issues and if the other dogs did well down the road or were there a host of other anomalies that later presented. 

Something is clearly affecting the male chromosome in this litter. The females are prefect. And no, I can't take a female. I have a bossy 4yo female Pomeranian. 

Anubis & Carmen, thank you for the info!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I fostered a sable pup who had the surgery for PRAA. His breeder turned him in to be euthanized and the vet did the surgery and turned him over to the rescue I worked with. He did have mild Mega-E but no other health problems. He didn't need a Bailey chair, just needed to eat slurry-style food or ground raw. 

It is very common for pups with PRAA to develop Mega-E but the severity of the Mega-E varies.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Just curious--what bloodlines are these dogs? American, German show/working? If your breeder is responsible, I assume there were no clear warning signs in the pedigree. Just wondering where the genetic abnormalities may have come from, not trying to "out" your breeder.


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## NewGSDmomma (Jul 22, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> I fostered a sable pup who had the surgery for PRAA. His breeder turned him in to be euthanized and the vet did the surgery and turned him over to the rescue I worked with. He did have mild Mega-E but no other health problems. He didn't need a Bailey chair, just needed to eat slurry-style food or ground raw.
> 
> It is very common for pups with PRAA to develop Mega-E but the severity of the Mega-E varies.


Thank you for your response! Not likely we will go with the guy with PRAA but it's possible. We fell in love with him and 1 surviving brother during our visits. Do you know if the foster needed the soft diet permanently? Not that it would be a decision maker/breaker. More concerned about the potential of Mega-E being fatal like with his brother. 

I know there's no guarantee no matter what the decision is. It's just nice to receive feedback from others who have experienced it.

As far as pedigree/line. Father is a champion American show. Mom is also American show. Breeder had both checked by a top local vet prior to breeding, no indications of potential problems. No problems presented until the first vet check. 1 male was diagnosed with a mild heart murmur. He was going to have it re-checked at 8 weeks. He was the one that died Saturday. She said she had them out playing, went into feed them an hour later and found him in seizure. Rushed him to the vet, he died there. She's having an autopsy done on him. Prior to his demise she noticed his head larger and rounder than the others. I saw him a few days before he died and he seemed normal to me but, I'm completely new to all of this! 

The other checked fine at the vet on the first check, then had something she noticed was wrong with his throat, brought him in & was diagnosed with severe mega-e & died. The 3rd who needs surgery didn't appear to have anything wrong at all until he started weaning. She said he was the "first out of the box" and all appeared normal until he started vomiting. He's still thriving and will have surgery next week.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Mega E is a long term thing if it turns out to be severe, its a battle. Even if its not severe I would not take one of these dogs unless you are home 24/7. Special needs mean special care. You need a vet that is on board 24/7 to help. Its also very expensive. Mega E can be caused by Praa sometimes its reversible. Mega E can come out at a later time as well. I deal with it everyday. I would pass on these dogs even if they are free. Its pretty hard to handle emotionally.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I don't know your experience with dogs, but even with my one VERY healthy puppy, I felt like raising a GSD was HARD work and stressful sometimes. I imagine that having a puppy with potential health issues will only make it more difficult and stressful. 

The breeder sounds great with the surgery and the spaying, but if it were me, I would ask to move to another litter.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Yes, Rio needed to be on slurry-style food for the duration of his life. We were told to expect Mega-E with him and felt lucky it was mild. With other dogs it can be severe.


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## NewGSDmomma (Jul 22, 2013)

marshies said:


> I don't know your experience with dogs, but even with my one VERY healthy puppy, I felt like raising a GSD was HARD work and stressful sometimes. I imagine that having a puppy with potential health issues will only make it more difficult and stressful.
> 
> The breeder sounds great with the surgery and the spaying, but if it were me, I would ask to move to another litter.



Against my better judgement, if things continue to go well for the 2 "healthy" males, I will take one home. However, I will continue to resist the urge to take home the 3rd male that has PRAA even though he is just the SWEETEST little guy and would probably make the best dog. 

Thank you to those that recommended specific tests, I will have those done prior to making the final leap of faith! 

They have to go somewhere, might as well be our home. I do not have a ton of recent experience with gsd's but I will be the primary caretaker of the new pup and I will be with him 24/7. My job allows me to work from home, office, or field. He will be with me always.

We've always been dog owners. Poodle & Pomeranian for our immediate family but have helped my mom with her numerous husky's over the past 24+ years. 

The reason I'm in love with gsd's is because I was raised from birth around one magnificent Gsd, wolf, elk hound mix (breed, per vet). And, as a previous 911 dispatcher, I've worked around some pretty fantastic k9's. 

I've been wanting a gsd for many many years but timing wasn't right; Job, babies, senior dog, ect.. The timing now is right for our family. No more babies, my youngest child is 10, oldest is 20, our precious 17yo poodle passed this year, our 4yo Pom is still at a perfect age to accept a new member & I now have the necessary amount of time to dedicate to raising a healthy, happy, trained, wonderful fur-dition. I've been searching/preparing since 2010 for this addition. I wish I would have become a member of this forum before now!

I will be the first to admit, I still have much to learn about this breed, differences in American, European, titles, ect....And, also the first to admit I'm not making the wisest decision by going with a guy from this litter, I'm probably thinking more with my heart than head. 

At this point, just hoping the 2 healthy guys stay that way & the 3rd doesn't worsen.

Thanks for the suggestions! To be continued!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

NewGSDmomma said:


> I will be the first to admit, I still have much to learn about this breed, differences in American, European, titles, ect....And, also the first to admit I'm not making the wisest decision by going with a guy from this litter, I'm probably thinking more with my heart than head.


I am curious, what made you choose American show lines?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> Yes, Rio needed to be on slurry-style food for the duration of his life. We were told to expect Mega-E with him and felt lucky it was mild. With other dogs it can be severe.


This is a LIFE-LONG several times per day (taking 20 to 45 minutes per feeding). I know your heart is there and you have the "MOM" nurturing thing going on here (LOL), but really......don't think with your heart! You have time for yourself now and a dog, don't tie yourself down now that you have a little freedom from the responsibilities of Motherhood (been there!). Traveling and taking all the supplies for feeding will even be hard, and what about if you need to leave him with someone else? What if he chokes all the time while drinking water or eating or worse.... if you have to watch him expire!!!
Don't do this to yourself, no matter what your heart is telling you. Maybe even find another breeder with a history of healthy dogs. This forum has MANY suggestions.
I don't mean at all to be negative about this just realistic. After working and being a Mom for so many years, you need some "ME" time and to be able to relax whenever you can, not be on the edge of your seat with the "what if's".
Please choose a different litter or different breeder. :apple:


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## NewGSDmomma (Jul 22, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> This is a LIFE-LONG several times per day (taking 20 to 45 minutes per feeding). :apple:


Which is why I'm not taking the dog diagnosed with PRAA and why I'm still going to have other testing done prior completely committing.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

NewGSDmomma said:


> Which is why I'm not taking the dog diagnosed with PRAA and why I'm still going to have other testing done prior completely committing.


There are no tests for mega E. The only test is to confirm if they have it now. You have no idea if they will develop it later. I agree, its a huge commitment. I live it everyday. You will have a special bond with a special needs animal. its also work and constant worrying and lots of money to keep up with it.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Personally I wouldn't take the risk. Ask to have your deposit put onto another litter or ask for a refund and go to another breeder...


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## NewGSDmomma (Jul 22, 2013)

Freestep said:


> I am curious, what made you choose American show lines?


I actually started out looking at Czech working dogs and probably would be taking one little neurotic handful home very soon if the breeding would have been successful this spring. Different breeder who I also have great respect for & have been in contact with since starting my search in 2010. 

We've gone back and forth about if we want to do volunteer search and rescue (20yo child will be a paramedic), or do we want a dog that will just mesh nicely with our family? We opted to wait on the working gsd and go for a dog that will just mesh with our family. We didn't exclude or target in on any specific line, this particular litter is just where we/I've stopped my search. 

As I've said a few times, still learning. We've never had any interest in showing or breeding which, is very good considering those would not be an option for these guys anymore.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Are they giving away the pups now? I sure would be if I were that breeder. I certainly wouldn't pay for a dog from a litter with such severe health problems.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

NewGSDmomma said:


> Which is why I'm not taking the dog diagnosed with PRAA and why I'm still going to have other testing done prior completely committing.


Would you mind sharing those tests please  I am just not aware of any that will let you know if the dog may develop issues down the road. I know Dr. Leigh Ann Clark is conducting research to hopefully develop a test for this condition one day but I don't think they have come that far yet.

Clemson University | Department of Genetics and Biochemistry | Faculty - Dr. Leigh Anne Clark


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## NewGSDmomma (Jul 22, 2013)

Heidigsd said:


> Would you mind sharing those tests please  I am just not aware of any that will let you know if the dog may develop issues down the road. I know Dr. Leigh Ann Clark is conducting research to hopefully develop a test for this condition one day but I don't think they have come that far [/URL]


*See below response by Anubis regarding the questions I asked in my 1st post. Will also be consulting with the breeders vet (again, top vet in our area) and will also consult with my own vet. Was hoping to get feedback from others that have experienced this themselves, & I understand mega-e can happen at anytime in the dogs life. We would be testing the pup to rule out current presence of that issue. *




Anubis_Star said:


> All these conditions can be tested for. I would want full xrays, mega-e along with numerous congenital heart conditions can be seen. I would also want a consult with a cardiologist and an echocardiogram.
> 
> If those all come up normal than you've ruled out the conditions that have caused the 3 ailments so far.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

NewGSDmomma said:


> Which is why I'm not taking the dog diagnosed with PRAA and why I'm still going to have other testing done prior completely committing.


I'm going to speak out of both sides of my mouth. 

I got a puppy who I frequently babysat for whose owner wanted to place her since she could not physically do SAR work ... she was diagnosed with SAS and was not expected to live long enough to celebrate her 2nd birthday!!! Too was a cool dog, a mischief maker, could get into more trouble faster than a dozen other dogs put together ... she had only one speed FAST which was a no-no for a heart patient. I begged her owner to let me have her and was extremely lucky when she said YES!!! Too always did everything her way, including living long enough to celebrate her 12th birthday. She died suddenly from a drug she was taking for arthritis which caused her to bleed to death when she was 12-1/2 years old. Living with her and the uncertainty of knowing that she could drop over dead at any moment was extremely stressful. I loved the dog to death, she was one of my favorite dogs I've ever owned, but for over 12 years I had to keep in mind that any minute she could have died. Looking back, if I had to do it over again, I WOULD ... NO QUESTIONS ASKED!!! But I'm not sure I could recommend anyone else to go thru the stress and tears of living with a dog with an uncertain future.

So IMHO, since you haven't bonded with any of the puppies, I would walk away. Either get your deposit back, let the breeder keep your deposit and arrange to get a puppy from another litter, or simply say good-bye to the deposit.

GOOD LUCK with whatever you decide to do!!!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Is that breeder planning on ever breeding the parents again? 

If you have the heart and know you will have the ability for the rest of his life (who knows that?) I'd take the one that your heart tells you to. I would not pay a thing for a sickly dog from a breeder, she should help you out with him. 

Special needs animals, like people, are an immense undertaking in a lot of cases. I have a dog with "special needs" (of the temperament kind) and if I had it to do over.. I'd do it again, only because I love him so dearly. But I wish I could have gotten a dog I could really enjoy life with. It doesn't always happen that way.

I'm nobody to say think with your head, not your heart. I'm currently medicating (some by force) tiny baby rats, eleven of them, who started out feral, and working to socialize them. So if I'd take those sick, wild, unloved animals on when I already had 14, and a rescued Chinchilla with mental issues, two rescue kittens and a rescue cat.. I know I'd take that sick little boy if I had the time to devote to him and make sure he was given the best life possible. And if you think it's with you, why not? If you want a healthy dog, I'd suggest not getting a dog from that litter at all. Just because they seem healthy now, even the girls, is no assurance they do not have underlying problems. 

Do what you know you won't live to regret. And that's all.


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