# Control in protection



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

At what age do you start doing control work/secondary obedience during protection? I mean things like heeling/focus for obedience bites, transports, having to hold the platz before an escape.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I don't know if it is age, or the point you are at during training. 

For my current male, I did not do a lot of puppy work. We started adding obedience really right after the be-a-pole-now-run-your-dog part. This particular dog was getting so high that it was craziness. So we added a platz/aus. Maybe around 20 months?

Then the platz was extended to allow the helper to come get the sleeve. Ari has to wait until I command voran before breaking. By the time we started working the hold and bark, we added a little heel position with focus before the B&H. 

Still cannot heel away with the helper behind us as Ari firmly believes he should see the "bad guy" at all times.

Ari is 25 months.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I can say that when I was working at club A no control was taught until well later i.e. when the dog was already doing some sort of bark and hold. Then we tried adding control but it was a lot of conflict - the dog was overloaded, I didn't know how to lower his drive (I'm a novice handler) or in other ways control him and he was just out of control - barking whining and definitely not paying attention.

I now go to club B with the same dog and we started from square one (i.e. the bite wedge) and they added control from the beginning. As soon as the dog was confident in the bite we started adding fussing away from the helper. The reward was a release for the chase / long bite. I really like it. The dog can control himself better (I believe it's called capping?) and just build up quietly heeling by my side paying attention and just EXPLODE at the release command. After that we started adding platz next to the wedge with me _calmly_ picking it up and handing it to the helper. Now we platz, then sit, then heel away from helper for the bite (when working on control, that's obviously not the whole training session).

So that's two different clubs. I'm sure club A would have gotten me to control the dog one way or another but I feel it would have involved harsh corrections and a lot of conflict. They do have SchH3 dogs working so at some point they had to give them control. Personally, I like club B's approach but I have yet to see the whole picture. 
We can now have him down next to the wedge, turn on and off, and heel away from the helper. Sometimes we even heel as though to walk off the training field and give a release command. I don't know, but so far it's been going really well...

Hopefully other members of the forum can give more information as I believe your dogs are far more advanced (and you are far more experienced) than I am. Hope this helps regardless...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It isn't an age so much as when the dog is ready. Deja didn't start much bitework until last fall and until this spring had maybe had a 1.5 dozen rounds. We did a tiny bit of capping work last fall. I have started more serious work now. Donovan I have done some work for a toy, but he isn't as mature. He has had far less work in protection so isn't ready for OB bites. They turned two in March.

I want the H&B set and the dog much have fairly good obedience elsewhere. We actually started the obedience in protection (had done a little cappy work, like I said above) when we started blinds which was in April. Deja was 2.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm not really looking for advice re. my dogs but lately I've seen a few pics and videos of IMO very young dogs doing control work in the protection phase so it made me curious. I saw a video of a young dog (6 months?) at a seminar not even biting a sleeve or wedge yet that was doing control/obedience for bites as the bitework and it got me thinking about it. I guess it can't hurt but at the same time I don't think that it should take a crazy amount of work or starting super young to get the dog under control. I get the feeling it was something they were doing just because they could sort of thing.

As far as my own dogs, Nikon's secondary obedience is fairly natural. His back transport is awesome, I keep complaining that we can't show it off for our SchH1. He does the obedience and control very well without needing a ton of pressure but he is not a dog that gets overloaded in the first place (and this is true for all the types of protection we do, not just the SchH routines). Pan is still very young so I haven't really thought about this yet, other than my personal preference being that my dogs are not allowed to be berserk on the field even if it is protection. I don't expect formal heeling right now (he doesn't even have a heel/fuss command yet) but I walk him out calmly. No dragging me through the gate or going ape at the sight of a sleeve. If the dog sees the helper moving around and starting to approach his space, then he can activate. Pan can platz pretty well (usually the first obedience thing I teach) so I've been doing platz for his mini-escapes but more because he can do it than I am trying to force him to do it. He has no hold and bark.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

For me, there are a number of things wrong with what you are talking about with the six month old puppy. First thing is that he is doing protection at all at that age, much less obedience in "protection". It is just NOT protection at that age, period. 

I have seen and heard of some of the "big name" SchH seminar givers doing these things, from teacing the out, to hold and barks etc with young pups. Sure seems to excite and impress the masses. I am impressed also, but for completely the opposite reason. It shows a level of ignorance about protection work that is just sort of stunning.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

There was a thread a while back called "locked in prey". Everyone always wants to get their dog to bite as quickly as possible because that is the most satisfying for them, and it's fun for the dog. The question is, what is the dog's state of mind? 

I agree totally with Vandal, and my personal experience is that it takes much more work and time to get a "prey monster" under control than it does to begin the phase with control. The dog will also be more likely to view you as part of (and ultimately controlling) the exercise than a dog that was allowed to overload from the beginning without knowing quite why.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Liesje said:


> At what age do you start doing control work/secondary obedience during protection? I mean things like heeling/focus for obedience bites, transports, having to hold the platz before an escape.


I think it was around 22 month age for my dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Vandal said:


> For me, there are a number of things wrong with what you are talking about with the six month old puppy. First thing is that he is doing protection at all at that age, much less obedience in "protection". It is just NOT protection at that age, period.


This was kind of what I was wondering. To me, protection shouldn't need excessive obedience because the dog *should* turn/on off and escalate based on the level of threat, no? I mean, if a "bad guy" is really in my dog's face, I don't really expect my dog to shut up and sit still. If he's not, well then I expect my dog to control himself and mind me, or at least be in a state of mind where he can actually hear me and think.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

At the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll tell you a story. Last summer I went to a training weekend with my then 16 month old GSD. At that time he was doing escape bites, nice bites on a long line, genetic full grips, everything looked great. When it was my turn for protection I went and got him, and when we walked into the building, the guy hosting the training asked if the dog had done any bite work. I, and one of the helpers I work with said yes. He looked at me and said, "turn him on". I did, and he started breathing fire. After about 20 seconds he looked at me and said, "now turn him off". I tried, and he let me suffer my embarrassment. After about 30 seconds he looked at me and asked, "why the **** is this dog doing bitework?". 

It was at that moment I realized that I was building a dog with no foundation. He had been worked in prey very early, and was confident as ****. He was and is a very compliant dog, works well in obedience and tracking. The problem was that protection to that point was about him, and he was so high in drive I had no control. We have worked on that since then, and we are making good progress. 

That mistake set me back significantly in our training, and everything since then has been about control.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think the dog should have the foundation of control along the way as confidence builds in the bitework. So as the pup ages along, the control work gets a bit more focused. 
Karlo didn't have any obedience on the protection field for his first 18 months, but he isn't crazy either. 
It has taken a few recent sessions to get focus first on me for direction and not the helper(when the helper is neutral). 
He needs to look to me first, and that is hard to get thru to him, because we never made it an issue previously. Since we've done more pressure on the control side of it, his drive and sleeve possession has come out more. He has to work so darn hard to win that sleeve(focus on me first!) that it is higher value now.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

the good ole days


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Did he get disqualified for that?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

holland said:


> Did he get disqualified for that?


The video say C:90 at the start.

ETA: What is CL?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

holland said:


> Did he get disqualified for that?


No. In fact he got 90pts! And that was in the BSP. This might not break 80 pts in a local trial today. 

The next time someone starts telling you about schutzhund in the "old days" remember this video.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...bummer


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

What are you thinking he should have been disqualified for? The bite in the leg or the handler taking his collar? Neither were disqualifying events back then. The dogs would lose points for a rebite but they were not DQed for biting places other than the sleeve like they are now.

Having said that, there were dogs with very good grips who outted immediately without chewing, never took re-bites etc. Those were the better dogs who scored better. Not clear why we should remember this video. 

Gildo is not one of my favorites, so, I would rather not defend him or his behavior but the rules were different then.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> Not clear why we should remember this video.


Because the video is what it is. It's not colored by opinion, deception or rose colored glasses.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

holland said:


> ...bummer


I don't think it's a bummer at all. That was a good dog for his time and he reflects the training. He also was a frequently used stud dog that many dogs have in their pedigrees. Remembering yesterday helps us make better decisions today.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Because the video is what it is. It's not colored by opinion, deception or rose colored glasses.


There are plenty of videos of dogs working in SchH from that time period. Not like they are hidden away so people can lie about what it was. You're making a bit more of this than there is, but that's not unusual. lol.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Vandal said:


> What are you thinking he should have been disqualified for? The bite in the leg or the handler taking his collar? Neither were disqualifying events back then. The dogs would lose points for a rebite but they were not DQed for biting places other than the sleeve like they are now.
> 
> Having said that, there were dogs with very good grips who outted immediately without chewing, never took re-bites etc. Those were the better dogs who scored better. Not clear why we should remember this video.
> 
> Gildo is not one of my favorites, so, I would rather not defend him or his behavior but the rules were different then.


I missed the bite on the leg-the handler taking his collar-didn't know what the rules where back then I have a hard enough time figuring out what they are now-you don't have to defend the dog-it doesn't matter all that much to me


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal, I don't assume to know what people look at online. For all of the talk I read on this forum about what the sport used to be, I bet that there is a 500:1 ratio of talk vs video. Also if people do go online and watch old videos do they have the background to understand what they are looking at. Just like above post where the Holland thought the dog should be disqualified. 

And if I want to make it the biggest deal in the world, so what? It made you post didn't it?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...what ever some day maybe I'll be a know it all like you-but its not my goal in life


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

LOL...I'll let Holland take it from here. Go get him.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Thanks but I have no interest really-because he can make comments but he is too afraid to say who he is _If you are going to attack people on the internet at least have the guts to put your name to it-sad really and I am done


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

holland is that last post not calling the kettle black? LOL! you're not done, just a bit cooked, but not done yet


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Actually, we started transport with my male lastnight. Obedience has been the last few months. Heavy OB right now as my male sometimes decides to "give me the finger" I was told. Getting much better though


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

holland said:


> ...what ever some day maybe I'll be a know it all like you...


Maybe. But you have a whole lot of work to do.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Is anyone else here upset because I suggest that people pay close attention to a video? 

:wild::wild: ROTFLMAO!!!!

I guess it's offensive to some to suggest that people look at the evidence for themselves and make up their own minds.


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