# Found a very interesting "Warrenty of Vaccine Safety"... thoughts?



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

http://preventdisease.com/pdf/Warranty-of-Vaccine-Safety-English.pdf
(Can easily be made for use in a veterinarian clinic)


I found this recently through pet health networking... I found it very interesting. I wanted to hear other's thoughts on the waiver / warrenty. Should we, as informed pet owners, ask or vets to sign such documents instead of putting blind faith into their practices and morals? 



I wrote an article on overvaccination for my blog, so this topic is obviously important to me. I find that veterinarians are so eager to dump chemicals and medications on our pets without discussing everything about the product in depth with us.


Do people even know what chemicals and ingredients are in their pet's vaccines?


Please share your thoughts / opinions in a respectful manner so we can discuss!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Interesting indeed. 
I am sure it would be almost impossible to get any vet to sign. Since Kiya was diagnosed with "idopathic epilepsy" I've questioned vaccines and everything else over the last 5 years. 
I just got a postcard saying that Lakota, now 2-1/2 is due for "yearly" booster. I have no intentions of doing them. I don't think I will get an arguement, although I am very suprised she hasn't gone to at least the 2 year protocal. 
Maybe I should give her this document and tell her ok if you sign I'll vaccinate. But I really don't want to have to look for a new vet. We agreed to disagree.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

kiya said:


> Interesting indeed.
> I am sure it would be almost impossible to get any vet to sign. Since Kiya was diagnosed with "idopathic epilepsy" I've questioned vaccines and everything else over the last 5 years.
> I just got a postcard saying that Lakota, now 2-1/2 is due for "yearly" booster. I have no intentions of doing them. I don't think I will get an arguement, although I am very suprised she hasn't gone to at least the 2 year protocal.
> Maybe I should give her this document and tell her ok if you sign I'll vaccinate. But I really don't want to have to look for a new vet. We agreed to disagree.


I personally would not vaccinate an epileptic dog. I would even contact the local township to ask if rabies titers will suffice instead of vaccinating every three years. Rabies titers can last around 7-10 years, if I recall...


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

After my boys last booster I told the vet we would be titering moving forward. I honestly hope that I don't have to vaccinate again. He told me it would cost alot more and I said no problem.

I'm also glad that I don't have to worry about child vaccines anymore, our girls are older and we are not having anymore children. There's alot of alarming information out there that would make me so uneasy now.

IMO it would be very difficult to find a vet that would sign the attachment you posted.

From this thread I now know there is a rabies titer (I did not know that). Thank you!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Courtney said:


> After my boys last booster I told the vet we would be titering moving forward. I honestly hope that I don't have to vaccinate again. He told me it would cost alot more and I said no problem.
> 
> I'm also glad that I don't have to worry about child vaccines anymore, our girls are older and we are not having anymore children. There's alot of alarming information out there that would make me so uneasy now.
> 
> ...


There certainly is a rabies titer! Glad you found this out!

I agree it would be difficult to find a vet to sign this document, however that is the point (to me, anyway). Are they so unsafe that our veterinarians cannot even ensure our pets will suffer no ill effects from vaccines? That scares me. Hunter is the closest thing I will ever have to a child (my own choice and lifestyle), and I care VERY much about his health care. 

If anything, this "warranty of vaccine safety" got me thinking on a deeper level about pet vaccines.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I find it very frustrating that alot of vets won't aknowledge vaccine reactions/vaccinosis.

I remember about 10 yrs ago my parents mixed breed female had a seizure. At that time I did not have a dog and was completely clueless. But I remember my dad asking the vet if it could be related to the vaccines she got a few days before (and I'm sure a cocktail + rabies), vet said no way. Luckily she never had another seizure but my dad never gave her another vaccine either. Think she just turned 13 this past spring.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Kiya is 8yrs old now, she actually got a rabies shot at 6 yrs old no adverse effects, but her seizures are well controlled with meds. I know of a lot of people on a support group I belong to that do not vaccinate at all. But people that haven't experienced an epileptic dog for example wouldn't have reason to question what the vet is using. You "assume" you can trust a vet, as you should be able to trust a doctor. The disturbing thing to me is a comment my cvs pharmasist who makes Kiya's postassium bromide said she has so many dogs on it. The fact that the number of "epileptic" dogs are increasing so much really has to make you wonder.
When I got Lakota I was using a different vet and I went along with thier vaccine protocal which was 3 rounds. I did her 1yr boosters last year with blind faith that I was doing the right thing for her. 
Maybe if vets were subject to sign a document like that there wouldn't be any vets still practicing a yearly booster program.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

kiya said:


> Kiya is 8yrs old now, she actually got a rabies shot at 6 yrs old no adverse effects, but her seizures are well controlled with meds. I know of a lot of people on a support group I belong to that do not vaccinate at all. But people that haven't experienced an epileptic dog for example wouldn't have reason to question what the vet is using. You "assume" you can trust a vet, as you should be able to trust a doctor. The disturbing thing to me is a comment my cvs pharmasist who makes Kiya's postassium bromide said she has so many dogs on it. The fact that the number of "epileptic" dogs are increasing so much really has to make you wonder.
> When I got Lakota I was using a different vet and I went along with thier vaccine protocal which was 3 rounds. I did her 1yr boosters last year with blind faith that I was doing the right thing for her.
> Maybe if vets were subject to sign a document like that there wouldn't be any vets still practicing a yearly booster program.


Yes, you are taught to trust your vet and that you require no research on your part - which is very wrong and even dangerous. I think we would see a LOT less vaccinating if vets were required to sign a document like this. Veterinarians aren't often held accountable, yet they force us to sign a waiver when we put or dog on the surgery table.

So why don't we have the right to have them sign a waiver for vaccinations?


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## TimberGSD2 (Nov 8, 2011)

I truly believe that vaccines are what started Kya's immune issues. I am very limited in doing vaccines, only doing puppy and 1 years then titering. 

I would be interested to know if the vets would sign a waiver? My vet is pushing me now to do a 4th puppy vaccine on Milla. I also politely informed her I did not want lepto or lymes and would also decline a 4th vaccine for Milla. 

I wonder if the vets would then protest that it is the vaccine manufacturer's or county ordinances or some such manure that is behind the whole vaccine every year thing. Food for thought.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I also think that owners who refuse vaccines for rabies need to sign something that shows that they understand that if their dog is bitten by a carrier or bitten by another animal, they will have to _______________ whatever the law is in their area, and if their dog breaks skin on someone for whatever reason they will have to _________________ whatever. 

Because I don't think people really get that.


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## TimberGSD2 (Nov 8, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I also think that owners who refuse vaccines for rabies need to sign something that shows that they understand that if their dog is bitten by a carrier or bitten by another animal, they will have to _______________ whatever the law is in their area, and if their dog breaks skin on someone for whatever reason they will have to _________________ whatever.
> 
> Because I don't think people really get that.


That is a good point. We are required to do rabies every 3 years here and that is one vaccine I will do. Since it is required by law and my insurance carrier. If I had a dog that was allergic though I would titer and deal with it differently. 

I would be willing to sign something like that. It is my responsibility as it is my dog. When I limit my vaccines I am doing it for the health and well being of my animal but as an animal owner I do have a certain responsibility/liability to those who would come in contact with my dog.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I also think that owners who refuse vaccines for rabies need to sign something that shows that they understand that if their dog is bitten by a carrier or bitten by another animal, they will have to _______________ whatever the law is in their area, and if their dog breaks skin on someone for whatever reason they will have to _________________ whatever.
> 
> Because I don't think people really get that.


I am pretty sure all animals have to be vaccinated against rabies, VERY LITTLE exceptions. Any exceptions have to be in written form by a veterinarian and accepted by the city/township. I just mean to titer instead of re-vaccinate every 3 years.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, definitely all do, and a titer is not the same as a vaccine in the eyes of most departments of health. If you vaccinate a dog at 1, against rabies, and then they are bitten by a rabid raccoon at 3, even with a titer, they are often (check by area - state government in the US) considered unvaccinated and are treated as such. Same w/breaking skin by the dog on someone. 

Title: Part 57 - Conditions Under Which A Dog Actively Immunized Against Rabies May Be At Large In Designated Areas Certified For Rabies
State Sanitary Code, Chapter 10, Health
State Rabies and Animal Control Statutes

NYS is a state where you can have a rabies waived - but - there are possible consequences to this decision, i.e., there is no such thing as 100% safe. 

2012 rabies stats thus far: http://www.wadsworth.org/rabies/monthly/Jan-Apr12rpt.pdf (fascinates me) http://www.wadsworth.org/rabies/monthly/APR12nmb.pdf


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't thiink vets understand half the crap that they give our pets.
Same with doctors and humans.

However i grew up when lots of people did not vaccinate and distemper and parvo killed many dogs. It was rampant in puppies.

My family had three puppies in a row all from different sources that died from these diseases. After that my dad would only adopt a dog that was at least one year old. 

So I think there are two sides to it. We probably over vaccinate but we wouldn't want to go back to those days I mentioned.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Rabies is the one thing I will vaccinate against every 3 years or so. I am terrified of rabies. Very, very terrified. Some places allow titers instead of the vaccine, though.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't thiink vets understand half the crap that they give our pets.
> Same with doctors and humans.
> 
> However i grew up when lots of people did not vaccinate and distemper and parvo killed many dogs. It was rampant in puppies.
> ...


It's not about *not* vaccinating for parvo and distemper... it's about the fact that you don't have to (and it is often dangerous) to booster yearly. Vaccines last awhile, it has been proven in our own vaccination schedules as humans.


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## TimberGSD2 (Nov 8, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> Rabies is the one thing I will vaccinate against every 3 years or so. I am terrified of rabies. Very, very terrified. Some places allow titers instead of the vaccine, though.


You can also find out if it is prevelent in your area. In the county I live, there has not been a positive test for rabies in something like 30 years. Now the county I work in which is about 40 min away has had a few bats test positive in the last 5 years. 

Not that that means you should not vaccinate, but might help ease your fears.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

TimberGSD2 said:


> You can also find out if it is prevelent in your area. In the county I live, there has not been a positive test for rabies in something like 30 years. Now the county I work in which is about 40 min away has had a few bats test positive in the last 5 years.
> 
> Not that that means you should not vaccinate, but might help ease your fears.


It is present in Ontario, Canada.. however, they have done a great job doing the rabies-bait vaccination for wildlife here.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Me too. Very. I mean, it's fatal. Yeep. 

http://mi.gov/documents/rabies_pets_flowchart_134247_7.pdf great chart that LaneyB posted before.

BUT let us all be clear, because this is what I think people are never sure about just because you can HAVE a titer approved does not mean that it is going to be looked at AS A VACCINE - the titers do not "count" as a rabies vaccine in the eyes of the law. A titer - and check your own area requirements - in the eyes of the law here, is the same as NOT BEING VACCINATED. 

So, if something were to happen to your dog or by your dog - your dog would be considered the same as a stray with no medical records, by your local health authorities. 

Again - check your laws - but if you want to titer for rabies, understand that is the potential consequence. Sorry to go off track, but I really get nervous when people think a titer is a get out of jail free card, because it is not.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Me too. Very. I mean, it's fatal. Yeep.
> 
> http://mi.gov/documents/rabies_pets_flowchart_134247_7.pdf great chart that LaneyB posted before.
> 
> ...



I understand. 

I was just talking in sense of the immunity still being present, not in terms of what the law deems acceptable. Regardless, better safe than sorry. Rabies is a horrible, horrible way to die with no cure. I won't vaccinate for distemper/parvo after first year booster (will titer), but I don't mess around with rabies.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

5-way vaccines are about as safe as you can get. They are considered "core" meaning essential.
I hate how these discussions always turn into a "vaccines are the devil" rants. 
I'd like to see middle ground which is what we do with our own dogs.
WSU, the leading vet school in our state, perhaps the Pac NW, has recommended every 3 yrs (after the initial puppy vax and the 1yr. booster to those) for _core_ vaccines and rabies, and that's what we follow. 
Our oldest is 10yr. now, doing fine, the youngest is 1yr., and will revax w/core vaccines in a few mos. 
The second oldest is 2yr. now and is going to every three yr. core vaccines.

As for humans - they are now recommending everyone over a certain age (20? 30? I forget) get a booster on their "T Dap" due to an epidemic of Pertussis here.
My arm hurt like heck but I got one.

Whooping cough epidemic declared in Wash. state | Fox News


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> It's not about *not* vaccinating for parvo and distemper... it's about the fact that you don't have to (and it is often dangerous) to booster yearly. Vaccines last awhile, it has been proven in our own vaccination schedules as humans.


I didn't mean to imply an either /or situation.

I was trying to point out the possible reasoning behind vets and their views about vaccinations.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

People like us, here on this forum and other dog related forums are a lot different from the general population. Most people I know or meet are clueless to topics like this. Most people wouldn't give a second thought to what the vet "recommends". 
My horse vet also does small animals and he told me a long time ago, with our old rescue gsd Chazzy who was about 8yrs old she didn't need any vaccines anymore and that you really didn't have to get them every year.
And I was one of those people every year that got all of my animals vaccinated without question. 
I do believe puppy shots & 1st year boosters are important, 3 yr rabies. 
My new vet has been treating Apache & Kiya for about a 1-1/2 years now, right off the bat I told her I do not give them any more vaccines other than rabies. 
I guess since I havn't gotten a postcard for them in the mail, it is probably an automatic reminder set up for Lakota since they did the 1st yr booster.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> 5-way vaccines are about as safe as you can get. They are considered "core" meaning essential.
> I hate how these discussions always turn into a "vaccines are the devil" rants.
> I'd like to see middle ground which is what we do with our own dogs.
> WSU, the leading vet school in our state, perhaps the Pac NW, has recommended every 3 yrs (after the initial puppy vax and the 1yr. booster to those) for _core_ vaccines and rabies, and that's what we follow.
> ...


Parvovirus and Distemper are the two diseases that have a high kill rate among dogs. Adenovirus is the equivalent of flu in people.

Taken from my blog post:
"Vaccines for diseases such as kennel cough, parainfluenza, and adenovirus are typically unnecessary. These viruses are the equivalent of a cough or the flu in humans, and healthy dogs can easily overcome them. It is not common for a dog to die of kennel cough, and kennel cough is a repeated visitor at humane societies and animal shelters across North America - very few animals die from this, and those that do have disorders and conditions of the immune system. Distemper, parvovirus and rabies are deadly diseases that often end in death, which is why vaccination for these three diseases are quite helpful. Rabies is a frightening, terrible disease that kills animals and humans without fail. The survival rate for animals or humans infected with rabies is virtually zero. It is required by law to vaccinate against Rabies, and it is extremely important that this is done"

K9 Instinct - Dog training, dog obedience training, raw diet, raw feeding, minimal vaccines: Vaccinations: The danger of overvaccinating.

I quote this just in regards to why I only do parvo, distemper and rabies in my animals.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> Vaccines last awhile, it has been proven in our own vaccination schedules as humans.


Careful about using this logic. 

You may not realize it, but the human immune system is radically different from those of dogs, cats, even mice and rats, which are genetically closer to humans and which we use for so many disease models and early stage drug trials. That difference is one reason why so many seemingly promising drugs and treatments are miserable and sometimes lethal failures when they get to the stage of clinical trials.

Vaccines do last a good while in dogs and cats, but we know this from doing the proper experiments with dogs and cats. You should not assume anything from the way vaccines (or anything else) works in humans.

Plus, the diseases themselves are different, and all vaccines have different levels of efficacy and different lengths of time for which they induce protection. Some vaccines do not last long at all, not even in humans. Others seem to last a lifetime.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

stealthq said:


> Careful about using this logic.
> 
> You may not realize it, but the human immune system is radically different from those of dogs, cats, even mice and rats, which are genetically closer to humans and which we use for so many disease models and early stage drug trials. That difference is one reason why so many seemingly promising drugs and treatments are miserable and sometimes lethal failures when they get to the stage of clinical trials.
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to compare the two, more trying to say "Look, it's possible in humans. It is possible in dogs, too."


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Because we rescue and our dogs are exposed almost daily to different things, we do the 5-ways, but not lepto or bordetella. 
We did the bordetella for a while but it made no difference in whether or not my dogs got sick.
And nobody's ever had a lepto.


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