# Very aggressive to guests



## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

We have a male (neutered) 3 year old GSD. We know his family history and have had since he was 10 weeks old. 

He’s been trained to a very high standard (eg KK Gold) and is trained to use his crate for R&R time, which is mainly used over night.

He is walked twice a day (1.5 hours in total) and rarely is alone in the house (maid, children, wife). He has agility training once a day, and 2x 10 min focused training, plus some ball / catch and tug. He is a well stimulated dog.

although he was socialised substantially as a puppy, he always used to jump up at guests (friendly), which we have trained out of him as best we can - he now has a calmer greeting and only jumps when super, super excited (ie hasn’t seen you for a couple of days, Eg i have been away on a business trip - doesn’t happen often though in the current Covid situation).

he is also a larger GSD at 40kg.

the problem is that he now goes absolutely mental when anyone comes in the house, like super OTT territorial. He is fine greeting outside, but if anyone comes in, the red mist comes down.

obviously his gold training is ability to focus on me when under distraction, but this has now gone out of the window if we have a visitor. We have tried calm introduction, with treats, no eye contact, with them sat down (we have tried mixing all the above up), but now he has to be introduced on a lead (we had to use a lead as I was getting worried he would harm someone).

he is snarling, growling, jumping and just going berserk. As this has been going on for almost a year, we recently (like last two weeks), have taken the decision that we cannot introduce him to anyone, so he usually ends up going into his crate until the guest has left (or is upstairs in the house). His introduction to the crate is usually a nice food reward (not every time for reasons you all understand), but he’s resisting this now too (when we have anyone in the house). When he hears guests upstairs, he starts running around and going into full on guard dog mode.

We have trained him so that he doesn’t use our upstairs stairs (so he stands with his back legs on the ground floor and the rest of him stretched up the stairs, trying to get to the guest).

In his heightened state, he will NOT recall. I have to work really hard to get him to sit, focus on me and then down. When I then ask for a stay, he can’t do it and immediately leaps up. I have tried the most incredibly tasty treats to try and break the habit, but even the juiciest stwouldn’t get his attention

the situation has been slowly getting worse and worse over a 12 month period and I’m very worried that he will seriously harm someone if heaven forbid he managed to catch someone.

As I type this, my daughter has a friend upstairs and the dog has got himself into a terrible state. He’s panting on the floor, after growling, barking and stretching as far as he can up the stairs (without taking his back feet off the ground level).

we are at a loss and wondering there is something emotionally wrong and whether we need a dog psychiatrist because this is definitely not normal GSD behaviour. 

Has anyone experienced anything like this before? I know you will say to persevere with the guest introductions, but even doggy people who know what to expect from him, no longer want to act as guinea pigs (they are scared of him) and I can’t introduce people as it’s too risky. For the last month we tried the calm greetings with a muzzle (he’s trained with a muzzle and gentle leader), but I’m uncomfortable doing that now. 

PS I add that he has never been hit in his life and has never had a bad experience meeting guests. It is like a switch came on when he approaching 2 years old. At the time, we thought it was development and he’d grow out of it, but it’s certainly worse.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Who trained the dog? Have you contacted the trainer? What does KK Gold mean? Do you use corrections in training?


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

KK = kennel club. It’s the highest (formalised) standard of training in the UK. My dog has achieved that several times.
It’s the home environment that’s the issue.
Yes of course we use training correction.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD1234567 said:


> KK = kennel club. It’s the highest (formalised) standard of training in the UK. My dog has achieved that several times.
> It’s the home environment that’s the issue.
> Yes of course we use training correction.


Who trained the dog?

What did the trainer say about this behavior?


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

We have had 3 long term trainers, as well as training him ourselves. This was a conscious decision so that he could be handled by anybody: rather than a single trainer.
They all say the same thing 

his impulse control is unusually poor for a GSD

he has very high intellect.

when he is at their house, he’s good as gold. As soon as he settles at the house, he moves to aggressive mode.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

What does he do when you correct him for refusing a command when in "aggressive mode?"


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

The hardest part is getting him to focus on me. He’s wired.

For distraction, we’ve tried a ball, an encouraged sit, treats. Anything and everything 

He’s not aggressive to me, he just wants everyone he knows out of the way, so he can confront (and very probably/likely attack) the guest.

removing him a few feet from the situation, with a gentle collar lead, gets a small recognition back in his eyes. He will then sit, and down on command (his response when he’s in this heightened state is very fast to sit and down), followed by a stay. But you can tell his head is not in the right place, his head and eyes are darting and looking for the guest. If I take a step back from the “stay” he’s in kill mode, he will spring and attack.


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

PS I should add, that’s not aggressive towards me, or the family. He will run around and chase his tail (total frustration), bark, bark, bark. But he will not harm or touch any of the family. He is purely focused on the intruder (guest)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

What does he do when you correct him for refusing a command even he is in aggressive mode, focused on the guest?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

What training corrections did you use in early training, besides distraction and treats? Especially for unwanted behaviour like biting, not just blowing off a sit command?

EDIT: just keep answering David, he's on the right track


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

When I ask him to sit, he won’t do it. I have to go up to him, get his attention (by standing in front him to break eye contact). I’ll ask him to sit again, and sometimes he will need a gentle push on the back legs. At this point, he’s starting to come out of the red mist, but I need to hold his collar. He will respond to down and stay. But he’s quickly back into the red mist if I let his collar go. 


regarding early training. He would never be allowed to not obey a command, so we would train and when he gets tired near the end, you can tell because he is less responsive. So when I put the final sit in, he would sometimes need encouragement (with a gentle push on the back legs), and then he would have the release command

As a puppy, unwanted behaviour, like biting or jumping, would be a straight time out (“no”, “time out” and a calm walk to the downstairs bathroom, no distractions, for 1-2 mins). He doesn’t mouth now. Jumping only happens when he hasn’t seen me for a while,to the point where it doesn’t really happen.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm thinking the dog has never known a serious correction then.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD1234567 said:


> When I ask him to sit, he won’t do it. I have to go up to him, get his attention (by standing in front him to break eye contact). I’ll ask him to sit again, and sometimes he will need a gentle push on the back legs. At this point, he’s starting to come out of the red mist, but I need to hold his collar. He will respond to down and stay. But he’s quickly back into the red mist if I let his collar go.
> 
> 
> regarding early training. He would never be allowed to not obey a command, so we would train and when he gets tired near the end, you can tell because he is less responsive. So when I put the final sit in, he would sometimes need encouragement (with a gentle push on the back legs), and then he would have the release command
> ...


How would you describe an appropriate correction for blowing off a sit command while under distraction, in an excited / aggressive state?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Were all the corrections gentle?


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

David Winners said:


> How would you describe an appropriate correction for blowing off a sit command while under distraction, in an excited / aggressive state?


I’m not sure. What would you suggest is appropriate ?


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

Sunflowers said:


> Were all the corrections gentle?


Yes they are.


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

WNGD said:


> I'm thinking the dog has never known a serious correction then.


What would you say is a serious correction?


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

GSD1234567 said:


> What would you say is a serious correction?


A well-timed "wrath-of-God" moment, for a split-second.

It needs to be memorable and timed to be easily associated to the unwanted behavior.
You should be calm, stern- but not angry or emotional, when you deliver it.

How much force? Your judgment is better than my best guess. Only your dog can know for sure.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i think we need to discuss equipment before talking about levels of corrections.

i’m gathering that this dog has experienced cues and redirections, but i’ve not read anything that resembles a (physical) correction.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It may be a country where correction tools are not allowed or available.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

LuvShepherds said:


> It may be a country where correction tools are not allowed or available.


good point, but it doesn’t have to be a prong, chain collar or e collar. we have no idea what’s on this dog. i don’t believe any countries ban slip leads (dominant dog collar style)...
edit: it’s singapore if anyone feels like looking into it.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

GSD1234567 said:


> What would you say is a serious correction?


Like I said, upon my dog biting at one of my children or guests (not puppy nipping that can be met with stern no, re-direction, joyous celebration and/or time out) a physical correction without anger that makes the fun of the undesirable action WAY less "worth it" vs the reaction from the boss....firm "no", firm scruff from the side or back of the neck, firm quick short shake, eye contact, raised forelegs from the ground, any combination for that particular dog until the dog's eyes widen in a holy crap moment or realization that I don't ever want to do that again.

Teeth on me or my children is a serious no-go.

Better too hard once or twice than too soft forever. It works and it's the only thing that's fair to your dog; clear consistent communication.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> It may be a country where correction tools are not allowed or available.


All the corrective tools I need for anything short of a truly aggressive dog, along with my eyes and my voice are at the end of my arms ....


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> It may be a country where correction tools are not allowed or available.


Excellent point, which I had not considered.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don’t think you need to use anything extreme. What you do need is the ability to bring the dog back down to a state where he is responsive to commands. Then you can give commands and redirect. A slip/dominate dog collar could work for you. I use similar techniques for dog aggression. I can’t fundamentally alter the dogs temperament. At his core he is still dog aggressive. I can however shrink his zone of reactivity to make the issue much more manageable. Similarly, your not going to get rid of your dogs territory aggression. You can however, temper his response to make him more manageable. I would put him in a dominant dog collar. I would have someone come in while I was holding the leash. Once he began reacting, I would use to collar to bring him down to a more responsive mental state and place him in a sit next to me. I would then send him to a place and down him. Once he was down I would use a food reward. Anytime he went to an aggressive state, I would use the collar. I would repeat this exercise several times, preferably with different people. How does your dog react to people introduced outside and then brought in.


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

Yes he understands commands very clearly, but when a state of arousal (not sexual) he is difficult to respond as he loses his focus.

he’s not had any physical correction,and by this i mean, he’s never been smacked, hit or had a shock collar. Only positive re-enforcement. This has been very consistent message from all our trainers.


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

Thanks for all the replies. When you say slip/dominate collar, what type is this? Do you mean a choke collar?

he currently has a halti which makes him very easy to manage. I presume you know what a halti is, but in case not, it is effectively like a horse bridle and goes across the nose/snout.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD1234567 said:


> Thanks for all the replies. When you say slip/dominate collar, what type is this? Do you mean a choke collar?
> 
> he currently has a halti which makes him very easy to manage. I presume you know what a halti is, but in case not, it is effectively like a horse bridle and goes across the nose/snout.








Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar


Designed specifically for dominant and aggressive dogs to control their behavior. When used appropriately, dominant dog collars are a humane alternative to prong and electric collars.




leerburg.com




This is a dominant dog collar. You could also use a slip or choker, or fur saver type collar. Attach the lead to the live ring. Keep the ring on top of the neck, behind the head. That halti isn’t going to help you, at least I don’t think it is.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSD1234567 said:


> it is effectively like a horse bridle and goes across the nose/snout.


I have to correct this. Lol. Just because I am a weirdo. A Halti is called so because it is similar to a halter, not a bridle. It functions similar to a hackamore and applies pressure across the dogs snout, as opposed to a bridle which applies pressure to the mouth by means of a bit. They make sense to a lot of people who were told that if you control the head, you control the horse or in this case the dog. And they are a useful tool, but offer no way to correct only to control.


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

@Sabis mom 
OP's intentions were certainly clear, but I'm so glad that I'm not the only "horse nerd" on this board, as that's what I was thinking as well, lol!

OP's situation is a good example of purely-positive training that has been very effective.... Except for this one thing- which is I feel is how it goes for many people.

Kudos to OP for working with and training your dog from the start. It's no small thing to be able to recognize that the training methods you've learned may not have an answer for a new problem.

I wish I had more to contribute. The advice, so far, has been sound and rooted in experience. I'm sure others will chime in, as well. You clearly are invested in improving your situation and I wish you good luck.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It sounds like a dog that has been trained and not proofed. The desired behaviors are understood by the dog, but when a competing motivator is present, the training falls apart. There have been no consequences for command refusal so when something comes along that is more interesting, the dog checks out and does what it wants.

Check out these videos and then ask questions.


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## Giuliano_Rocco (Oct 18, 2020)

GSD1234567 said:


> We have a male (neutered) 3 year old GSD. We know his family history and have had since he was 10 weeks old.
> 
> He’s been trained to a very high standard (eg KK Gold) and is trained to use his crate for R&R time, which is mainly used over night.
> 
> ...


maybe try an e collar to correct. because prong collar or choker he needs to be leashed.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Giuliano_Rocco said:


> maybe try an e collar to correct. because prong collar or choker he needs to be leashed.


That's a big expense and a whole lot of training to go through for something that can easily be solved with a leash and collar. The dog has reactivity issues in the house. No need for range.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Giuliano_Rocco said:


> maybe try an e collar to correct. because prong collar or choker he needs to be leashed.


An e collar is a poor choice in this situation, especially for someone who has never used one.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Giuliano_Rocco said:


> maybe try an e collar to correct. because prong collar or choker he needs to be leashed.


No. I use an e collar occasionally and never use it for aggression where the dog might associate the correction with the person. It can make him more reactive and aggressive, not less If he thinks the person caused it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

David, even the people who pioneered the use of B.F. Skinner's Operant Conditioning, the Brelands, found that occasionally instinctive drives would cause the animal to blow off a reward or a correction and do what it wanted. The wrote a paper about it, called "The Misbehaviour of Organisms" Classics in the History of Psychology -- Breland & Breland (1961)

It's an interesting read!

Operant conditioning simplifies things too much. It puts the animal in a box (LITERALLY, sometimes - the Skinner Box, as it was called!) and limits its behaviour. It takes NO consideration of how the animal might act in its natural environment, as a member of its species interacting with others of its species. (Dogs see us as pack members.)

All positive training limits the trainer even more, by focusing on just the positive part of operant conditioning, which has 4 parts to it: positive reward, positive punishment, negative reward, negative punishment.

IMO, the hallmark of a good trainer is one that doesn't just limit themselves to one method. Dogs are not all alike - what works for one dog may be a disaster for another! That's what makes it difficult to know what sort of punishment (correction) will work for the OP's dog. A leash correction that would have some dogs cringing might be totally ignored by a high-drive dog, focused on someone he wants to attack.

My rule of thumb is 'if the dog tries the behaviour again in the same training session, the correction wasn't strong enough!'


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

This is a common problem with pet owners. They don’t have the experience to deliver a solid prong correction and the dog easily picks up that he is in charge.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> This is a common problem with pet owners. They don’t have the experience to deliver a solid prong correction and the dog easily picks up that he is in charge.


The common problem is that many pet owners don't know how to discipline a dog in a variety of appropriate ways. Many dogs never require a prong at all and know exactly who's still in charge


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

GSD’s need competent training regardless of the goals for the dog.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> GSD’s need competent training regardless of the goals for the dog.


100% agreed


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> David, even the people who pioneered the use of B.F. Skinner's Operant Conditioning, the Brelands, found that occasionally instinctive drives would cause the animal to blow off a reward or a correction and do what it wanted. The wrote a paper about it, called "The Misbehaviour of Organisms" Classics in the History of Psychology -- Breland & Breland (1961)
> 
> It's an interesting read!
> 
> ...


Skinner boxes are useful sometimes. I understand the limitations of the original definition of operant conditioning and how flexibility is important in training.

I'm trying to figure out why you tagged me in this post.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

David, because you were talking about the shortcomings of all positive training, which uses operant conditioning as its basis. I was just backing you up.

It's interesting that even the two people who were the most responsible for developing this type of training were well aware it had limitations. The all-positive crowd need to do some serious in-depth research about the method they think is the ONLY way to train!

Sorry if I kind of went off on a tangent. I studied animal behaviour in depth in university: Skinner, Breland, Schaller, Lorenz, Goodall, etc. The field still fascinates me!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Operant Conditioning is a great tool for training new behaviors. It works great for the average pet dog but for a GSD you need to come up with more to reinforce behavior in new situations that are more challenging. My first WL GSD changed my mind about using just the clicker.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My tool of choice for this behavior is a nylon choke. But I also would have dealt with this behavior at a much younger age. I realize in the UK that the trend is to be gentle and "humane" but IMO there is nothing humane about letting a dog be this out of control that he can't be around people and often those dogs end up in shelters or euthanized simply because they were not taught to not behave this way. There comes a time when you have to tell them NO in a meaningful way.

The most effective tool I've found is the nylon choke. Prong collars will often ramp the dog up. Electric, when used by someone unfamiliar to them, can end very badly for everyone. The choke collar is so simply, no emotion in the correction and it usually only takes one or two times with this correction to get the point across.

I really need to point out, I don't think this has been brought up?, that you can not correct "emotion" but you can correct a lack of compliance. The dog reacts, you tell him sit. he does not sit because he's in the middle of an emotional reaction. So you correct him and then tell him Sit again. that is the sequence of events. That is a fair correction.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WNGD said:


> 100% agreed


Lol. I'm screwed then! I am 100%, completely incompetent!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I really need to point out, I don't think this has been brought up?, that you can not correct "emotion" but you can correct a lack of compliance. The dog reacts, you tell him sit. he does not sit because he's in the middle of an emotional reaction. So you correct him and then tell him Sit again. that is the sequence of events. That is a fair correction.


Jax, I see your point, but you do want to correct the dog BEFORE it gets so amped up it's lost its mind. When I had a dog-reactive dog, I'd correct her as soon as she started to fixated on another dog. I'd tell her 'look at me', and if she didn't she'd get a leash correction. The OP can do the same thing with the guest - correct the dog as soon as it starts to fixate on the guest, or bark. I'd allow one or two barks, then say, "Okay, enough!"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunsilver said:


> Jax, I see your point, but you do want to correct the dog BEFORE it gets so amped up it's lost its mind. When I had a dog-reactive dog, I'd correct her as soon as she started to fixated on another dog. I'd tell her 'look at me', and if she didn't she'd get a leash correction. The OP can do the same thing with the guest - correct the dog as soon as it starts to fixate on the guest, or bark. I'd allow one or two barks, then say, "Okay, enough!"


Why would I want to correct before? Your question doesn't make sense to me. You just wrote out basically the same sequence as I did except you are assuming the dog is in a lower state of mind.

Ideally, a person would be in control, have taught the dog behavior modification, and anticipating the dog's response so the dog does not even get to the point of fixating. If you allow your dog to get to that point of fixating every time then you have purposely set your dog up for failure. However, this dog has already been allowed to behave this way without any clue of how he is supposed to behave so it's safe to assume the sequence of event would play out like I posted simply because the dog doesn't know any better. 

Someone knocks, dog loses his mind because that's what he's been allowed to do, owner says sit, dog ignores command, owner corrects and repeats command. So the key to this is teaching the dog that a knock means he has to do a different behavior than losing his mind.

On a side note, I don't believe in not allowing the dog to look at what is causing them angst so I would never tell the dog to "look at me". I would teach the dog to "look at that" and reward when they looked away without reacting as I did with a dog I had that was dog reactive. But my original post was only in reference to my choice of CORRECTION for the dog. I think you bring up a good point that there must be behavior modification in conjunction with the correction to really stop the undesired behavior completely. That behavior in the house could be to go to a place and lay down when someone knocks on the door or some other behavior that is incompatible with barking like a lunatic.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jax, to clarify my point, there's a behavioural sequence a dog goes through when getting amped up ready to attack. The first part is to fixate on whatever it is (in this case, the guest. ) I'm saying I'd correct the dog at that point. And yes, I'm assuming the guest is already in the house.

If you wait until the dog is lunging towards whatever it's fixated on, you're leaving the correction too late. You've got to interrupt the sequence before the dog gets to that point.

Of course, if someone knocks on the door, that's a different situation.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Sunsilver - I have a full understanding of the sequence a dog goes through, thank you. I'm not going to continue as you are just repeating what I'm saying....

"Ideally, a person would be in control, have taught the dog behavior modification, and anticipating the dog's response so the dog does not even get to the point of fixating. If you allow your dog to get to that point of fixating every time then you have purposely set your dog up for failure."


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

The first problem I can see is "As this has been going on for almost a year, "


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## jillceppspano (Sep 16, 2015)

GSD1234567 said:


> We have a male (neutered) 3 year old GSD. We know his family history and have had since he was 10 weeks old.
> 
> He’s been trained to a very high standard (eg KK Gold) and is trained to use his crate for R&R time, which is mainly used over night.
> 
> ...


I am not an expert, just have dealt with the same. You need to train for the scenario(s) that has become the issue. Our girl GSD 5 yo has gotten worse with guests. We have been training her to be calm when a door bell rings, someone knocks at the door, front or back. First with family members, desensitized to us, the doors, knocking, bells, etc. Do it with family until it is rote, then friends he is ok w/ (my girl is ok w/ 2 friends she’s known since pup hood). I also will walk her when people are arriving so she comes into the house after them; we use gates so she can see, smell but not harm & always do so away from entry doors which are her triggers. Also the cat, she hates the cat, she hears the cat running upstairs & she goes crazy, hears me say Kitty - goes crazy so I say Kitty all day long. I also play cat meowing sounds on my phone & doorbell & knocking sounds. If she doesn’t react I reward her with a Pat, game or treat. Mine gets extra crazy when put in her crate vs left out & separated by a gate. I liken it to a highly sensitive person - it is a spectrum of reactive. 🤞🏻✌🏻


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