# Can a mean mom create mean puppies??



## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

Hi- I am new to this site but not new to GSD's. We have recently put a deposit down on a pup who is 4 weeks old and when we went and saw her we saw that her mom is REALLY mean. Now, her dad was also at the home and he was as gentle as gentle could be. They are pure bred but after seeing the mom we are nervous about getting a pup. So, my question is - can we still get a sweet and loving pet if we show it love at our home. We have 4 children and we could never have a aggresive dog. So is it heritary or enviroment that creates a mean dog?? I hope this is the right place to ask this question!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

What made the mother seem mean? Did she not want you handling the pups, protective of them? Or was she mean to the pups?

Pups learn a lot from their mother before they go home at 8 weeks. If you question the temperament of the mother, you _probably_ want to go with a different breeder.


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## Puddincat (Dec 14, 2008)

Describe what you mean by "Mean". Alot of time mothers can be funny with new people around the litter. If you feel it was true aggression I would question the owners, she should not be that way. If you don't like the temperament of the parents get a pup elsewhere.


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

Well, she was tied to a tree and he made sure to tell us not to go near her and she got out and killed 2 cows! But, he had 3 other shepherds who were free and walking around us and they were very gentle and sweet including the dad. It is hard for me to believ that a puppy raised in a loving enviroment could ever turn out mean but I just don't know how much is inherited?? I am also not sure if the $250 deposit in refundable but I would actually loose money if I had to but if meaness is not passed on to pups then we would probably get one since the dad was so nice but if it can be passed down then we would pass. So, confused- we have been planning on this pup for 6 weeks and my kids will be crushed!


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

PS- she is great with the pups not mean at all just really mean to people??


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree with describe "mean"? Many dogs if behind a fence or in a kennel can put on quite a scary display. Many bitches will be very protective over the puppies. There should be no reason why you cannot meet the mother away from the puppies and truly assess her temperament. If she cannot be social in a nuetral setting I would definitely look elsewhere.


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## Elmo's Mom (May 21, 2007)

I would expect the mom to be protective of her puppies. But, if the breeder is telling you not to go near her, I would be very concerned. I haven't heard of a GSD killing cows before either so that would freak me out a little. 

Sorry.


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

Totally freaked us out but the dad was so nice- I just really want to know if meaness can be passed down or if it is enviroment. All the other shepherds are fine but she is definitly left tied to a tree except to be with the puppies because she is mean. He was very honest and my husband thinks always being tied to a tree doesnt help her aggresion??


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What other information do you have about the parents? Hip/elbow certification? Any training, even a Good Canine Citizen certificate? Do you know anything about their lines?

Having lived with a fear aggressive gsd, I would be very, very cautious about getting a puppy from this breeder. I would wonder about their decision to breed a dog who is people aggressive.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Your husband is right, being tied to a tree doesn't help her aggression. What is the 'breeder' thinking?

I know your kids will be crushed but lay the ground work now. This does not sound like a puppy you want. If it's an aggressive puppy, the kids aren't going to be that thrilled after it's in your house for 2 months. My puppy isn't aggressive at all, just big, bouncy and occasionally steals someone's sandwich. I can tell you after 6 months, my kids aren't always thrilled with him.

More questions: are there any health certificates like OFA or pennhips on the parents, do they have any titles etc?

what kind of guarantee is the breeder giving you towards the pup being healthy in the long term?

Being out $250 might be a lot today but if you get a pup with issues, it's going to be a lot more in OOP expenses. You could always make up an excuse like you have a sick relative and can't take on a puppy now, maybe the breeder would fall for that and give you back your deposit.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'd say move on to a different breeder. Tying a dog up is so inhumane it's illegal in many places.


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

They do give their pedigrees and have champion bloodlines and are guarenteed for 2 years on hips. The parents are not titled but in the ancestory they are. I found one from Ohio on the net from Chapperal k-9 who look really good but she is 11 weeks now which will be better then a mean puppy. I just feel bad for those pups but I feel sick to my stomach after seeing the mom so i should probably go with my gut feeling and not get one. I think the mom was bred for protection and then just got out of control so she is now just used for breeding. If I knew I could get one that is like the dad but I guess its a crap shoot because of the mom.


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## Elmo's Mom (May 21, 2007)

Had you met the mother prior to this visit? Was she like this before?

My in-laws have raised many shepherds and were heavily involved in training in the past. They always told us that 75% of the behavior comes from the mother. I don't know how true that is, but it has stuck with me.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The dams temperament CAN be passed on to the puppies, regardless of the stud used. This sounds like a back-yard-breeder with no real knowledge of what he is breeding. 

Even if the pups did not inherit the agressive traits of the mother (and at this point, not sure is she is agressive, but honestly, it sure doesn't sound good!), she has a HUGE influence on imprinting the pups with her fears and behaviour, which is not good. 

I think that if you are having second thoughts, you should go somewhere else. Sorry about the deposit, but I applaud you for using your head and thinking this through. 

A dog that gets loose and kills cows - wow! that is a dog with a lot of prey drive. These pups may well grow up to be quite a handful!


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

Tied to a tree?? This person has no idea how to raise GSD's. I would keep looking.....the kids will be crushed, but this is a good way to teach them the importance of finding a quality pup, from a quality breeder, as it is a HUGE lifetime commitment. SHow them..."she is tied to a tree..that is bad...see, she is mean...that is bad...see how he does not care that she is aggresive and bred her anyway?? that is bad...C'mon kids....we deserve better for our money"

Where do you live, maybe someone here can recommend a good breeder in your area??


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I take it you're in Ohio? I'm sure someone here can help you out with a breeder recommendation.



> Originally Posted By: sumI feel sick to my stomach after seeing the mom so i should probably go with my gut feeling and not get one.


Always go with the gut. Buying a puppy means adding another member to your family for the next 12-15 years. Choose wisely.

Your husband seemed to be onto the tied to a tree is bad thing, use him to help you talk to the kids. Even if you dont' talk directly to the kids, what they hear their parents talking about will influence their thinking. I'm sure they want to have a nice happy playful puppy.


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

We live in tulsa oklahoma but I hope this doesnt get me kicked out but we are looking at the white shepherds. We have had a black and tan shepherd who we LOVED but I thought the whites were also really pretty so we thought we would try that route. Please dont bash me for that decision we love all GSD's and wanted to try the white this time. PS- my husband just called and cancelled the dog. If you know any breeders in Tulsa Oklahoma even black and tans that would be great as I really just want a nice sweet shepherd regardless of color.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

lol, nothing wrong with Tulsa OK (- edit - or were you talkign about getting kicked out because you want a white?) Good for your husband. Hope he got the deposit back. Don't rush into a pup, the kids won't explode. Present it this way, the more time you take, the more puppies they get to meet. Who wants to be potty training a puppy in tulsa in february anyway?


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## Elmo's Mom (May 21, 2007)

Even though it's tough explaining to your kids now, you will all be so much happier when you find the right puppy for your family. 

We don't discriminate in shepherd colors.









You may want to post in the Choosing a Breeder section. I'm sure there are folks here who can help you find what you are looking for. Good luck!


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

You guys have been great! I was so afraid to say anything about the white because I know it can be a sticky point with some so its nice to know color doesnt matter! I feel much better about cancelling the pup! On our way to looking for a new puppy!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

If the bitch isn't a dog you would love to own, do NOT get a puppy from her. The genetics are 50/50 between sire and dam, but the dam lives with the puppies and they might pick up on her behavior. Too risky. If you have anything but fantastic feelings about a breeder, run away.

And ANY breeder of ANY breed who ties dogs to trees is one to stay away from. I'm not talking about tethering a dog down while you're outside weeding the garden with it or washing the car or whatnot, but leaving it tied.... ehhhh.....

I love white shepherds and want to have one someday, but I'd either rescue one or I'd go with a breeder who breeds white shepherd dogs, Swiss white shepherd dogs, or bergers blanc Suisse, NOT "white German shepherds." White is a no-no in the GSD breed and the white shepherds have almost completely split. And let me tell you, many of those white shepherd breeders are doing FANTASTIC jobs with ensuring their stock have great structure (not extreme), excellent temperament, and great health. At minimum, make sure BOTH parents (and all breeding stock) have been certified clear of hip AND elbow dysplasia by OFA or PennHIP and have some sort of proof of good temperament. At the very least, look for a TT (temperament test) or CGC. They won't tell you much, but it's better than nothing.


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## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

I'll echo what Bonita said - we love all colors here and don't discriminate.









Personally, I think you're making the right decision in passing up this pup. Not necessarily because it will be aggressive (it's possible but not a given) but because there are too many red flags with this breeder.

I can't imagine why anyone would keep an aggressive GSD tied up. That's definitely not going to help matters. And if she's that aggressive, I have to wonder why they chose to breed her in the first place.

I went through this with my last GSD. His mother was very aggressive towards strangers - very over protective of her family. (We saw her through a fence, but couldn't get near her.) My boy turned out to be exactly like his mother. I knew what I could be getting into, knew that my home was the right one for him - no kids, very few visitors, etc., so I took him anyway. But if I'd had children I wouldn't have walked away, I'd have run.

Good luck in your search! You'll find the right pup for your family.


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## akgriffin (Feb 5, 2008)

Hey im from mcalester, about 80miles south of you. I looked online and there is a breeder just over the arkansas line around ft. smith, i seen on her website. i talked to her and she seemed knowledgable, but look and ask questions. are you planning to do anything special, agility, tracking ect.? if not look online for a good rescure, i got a 2yr old female, that is the best dog i think ive ever had. i looked for nearly 6 months before i finally got one. Since i'm in iraq right now, im missing my girl really bad, but only 4 more months to go. remember the only dumb question is the one not asked.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

If you're looking for a White with stable temperment and attention to testing for hips, elbows, Von Wildebrands and such... try Hoofprint Kennel in Canada. http://www.hoofprint.ws/ Yes you'd probably have to ship the dog, but I know Joanne Chanyi personally for over 30 years and she's very much pro-active breeding for the all-round dog. (has had many SAR, Police, Guide etc dogs from her breedings over the years) she's also a great person who'll talk with you about any questions you might have. She's also shown her dogs in conformation... but soundness is her strength. She was also a major force in starting a German Shepherd Genetic project long ago to trace various faults (including Spinal and cardiac issues) using the smaller genetic base within the WGSD.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Puppies develop personalities in the first 12-14 WEEKS of age. If kept with a bitch that has a less than stellar temperament you can expect that those puppies will probably acquire a similar temperament. Bitches with poor temperament should NOT be bred.

If you're looking for a new breeder, I highly recommend that the FIRST Thing you look at is the health certifications. This is not just having the owners say "yeah, my dog's are healthy!". You need to specifically ask for the OFA numbers for hips and elbows and any other health testing. If they can't give those to you (or a reasonable comparable certification from OVC or PennHIP) then they haven't bothered to have their dogs properly checked for genetic diseases and you're taking a risk buying a pup from them. 

It's always a risk, of course, but you might as well start off with the least risk possible. Finding about the health certifications - did they actually send hip and elbow x-rays to the Orthopedic Foundation of Animals (OFA) to be graded? - and other health risks such as epilepsy, eye diseases, allergies, etc. is important. 

And then, of course, temperament is important too. Both bitch and sire should have a reasonable temperament, but the bitch even more so since she's the one teaching those pups for the first 6-8 weeks.

Titles on dogs are really only any good if the titles are in the last couple of generations. A bunch of championships from 3-5 generations back does NOT make a line into a "championship line". 

There are some good breeders right here on this forum. You might pop down into the breeder's chat area and ask for some advice on who breeds a good line of white shepherds.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Have you considered a rescue dog past the puppy stage? You can find a purebred that's been in a foster home so you will know it's exact temperament and you can find one that is excellent with kids and won't tear up your house. 

Yes puppies are cute, but if you are really concerned about a puppy with 4 kids in your house, you and everyone in the house is going to need to start obedience training immediately(well, as soon as the pup is old enough to be enrolled) and work hard on structure and getting a pup accustomed to small children. Pups bite, nip, chew..and some you will have to teach boundaries as they can have resource guarding and food aggression. Would hate to see a pup get dumped because it's not working out with the kids.


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

This is not our first dog nor the first we have trained so I really am not worried about that. It is not easy but 2 of the oldest kids are teenagers and can always help out. Our last shepherd was wonderful and easily trained-thanks for all the comments!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

North TX GSD rescue has a lovely young white female GSD that's great with kids, housebroken, retrieves the ball, and isn't destructive in the house.

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=12615449


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Run. 

She killed cows -- no way should they have bred that bitch. 

I am sorry, but there is a serious temperament issue in a dog that attacks the owners herd animals to the extent that they kill it. 

A pregnant bitch may seek to remove anything that may threaten her puppies, hormones ranging and all that. So a bitch being somewhat more bitchy to other dogs or cats in the home is understandable. Killing two cows is really extreme in my opinion. 

Puppies are her complete responsibility at four weeks old. She may not like people who are not the regular family members around them. She may bark, she may body block (move in between you and her puppies), she may even herd outsiders by closing her mouth on their tennis shoe to get them to move away from her litter. So long as this is not done with the intent of serious harm, I do not see this as a serious aggressive issue. I see it more as a concientious mother keeping her puppies safe.

However, at this point, it is better if the mother is not stressed out at all. I prefer to wait until pups are six weeks old before people come to look at them. By that point they are for the most part weaned and the mother is often away from the puppies for extended periods. She should be less stressed about people checking out her pups. 

From what I have read, poor temperament can be caused by genetics. It can also be caused by the early environment, the disposition of the bitch that raised the pups. It can also be caused by poor leadership and poor socialization in the new home. 

The breeders chose to breed a very iffy bitch. In my opinion, they were not conscientious in their breeding choice. I would not choose a puppy from them. If necessary, I would forfeit the deposit.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the UKC permits whites to be shown in conformation. Having a white that is AKC and UKC might be a starting point for finding a good white. 

My only issue with the whites, is that if they are strictly AKC, they cannot be shown, so there are no inhibitions for the breeder to even try to stay within the standard. However, there is a growing white shepherd community that is trying to get them recognized as a separate breed. That will mean that the gene pool will be limited if that happens so that is a mixed bag. 

For a pet dog, I think there is still merit in going with a breeder who breeds to a conformation standard. 

Size, structure, health, beauty, color are all a non issue if temperament is not there. Whites can be shown at AKC shows in obedience and other dog sports. These give the purchaser some indication as to the trainablity and temperament of the breeding stock as well as the knowledge and involvement of the breeder. 

Good luck finding a good pup. 

I do not think a CGC is a good measure of temperament for breeding animals. A CGC can be obtained by questionable dogs. It really depends on the examiner. You can take the test as many times as you want (you will have to pay each time), and you can take it at six months of age. I think it is good to do, just not as the only measure.


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