# Too skinny?



## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

I get a lot of comments that Sigurd is way too skinny, mostly from people who have over weight animals. I usually don't think too much into it but I took these pictures yesterday and noticed his ribs are very visible. Is he too skinny??

He gets 4 cups a day of Natural Balance food, sardines 2x a week, yogurt/eggs a couple of times, 1 fish pill/day. He doesn't seem to act hungry. He gets 30 minutes of running time each day, plus various play times in the yard/house. I'd consider him pretty active.

He's healthy and everything too. He currently weighs 77 lbs.

















ETA: If he is too skinny, what foods can I give him to gain some weight?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Based on those pics, yes, he is too skinny. Was he panting hard? Can you always see his ribs? I like to be able to feel them but not see them all. It looks like his hip bone is visible too.

Satin Balls can be used to put weight on but you could also just up his food a little.

Are his poops normal (formed)?


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## Rylee (Mar 14, 2011)

Rylee is on Natures Select (4 star rated food), there is a link on here for the ranking of foods, it is considered premium and within a few days she had gained again...she is growing so fast!!! It is $45 for a 50# bag but well worth it..no crap in it and lasts months...http://www.naturalpetfooddelivery.com/


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Based on those pics, yes, he is too skinny. Was he panting hard? Can you always see his ribs? I like to be able to feel them but not see them all. It looks like his hip bone is visible too.
> 
> Satin Balls can be used to put weight on but you could also just up his food a little.
> 
> Are his poops normal (formed)?


When he is standing normal they aren't as visible. I'll try to find a picture. He was panting hard then because we were playing fetch for a while.

What are Satin Balls?

His poops are normal, he goes 1x a day, normal & firm.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Holistic Dog - Satinballs Satin Balls

My preference would just be to up his food a half cup or cup a day and keep an eye on it. 

When we are outside and playing, I can see Kaiser's ribs (not quite as easily as Sigurds though) but inside he looks fat to me so what he was doing affects the way he looks. I still think Sigurd could gain a few lbs though.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)




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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

He looks good in that last picture but maybe could use more muscle. I wouldn't put a lot of weight on him. It's so hard to judge with photos on the internet.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Thanks for the link, gsdraven, I'll up his food and if his ribs are still too visible I'll try the satin balls.

From different angles he doesn't look so thin, but when I pet him it is kind of like I am rubbing a washboard.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> He looks good in that last picture but maybe could use more muscle. I wouldn't put a lot of weight on him. It's so hard to judge with photos on the internet.


Yeah that's the thing. Pictures don't look very close to what he is in person. I get a lot of comments that he's really muscular/masculine in the front, but pictures it doesn't come out as much. 

Do you have any suggestions on how to build muscle on him?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would agree on the muscle, particularly the back legs.
Is he neutered? He is a tall narrow dog so I am not sure he will fill out a whole lot.

NB is a bit low on protein - may want to up that somewhere, somehow (if it is the LID formula)
Hill climbing and water walking (chest high water) are both real good for the back legs.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

jocoyn, he is neutered. He got neutered when he was a year old.
He is on the LID formula, what other food would you recommend? We've tried Orijen, Wellness, and a couple others will no luck (he's pretty picky... that may have to do with his skinniness).


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Can you get some pictures of him standing up from the side and looking over top of him?

From those pictures, he looks skinny. But I know with my own dog when he's at his most active he tends to be a little showy on the ribs when he's laying, breathing in or eating. Otherwise he's fine.

One thing you might want to consider is that Natural Balance is fairly low calorie. (I can't speak for their 3 new formulas but the rest of them if I remember correctly were all under 400 calories per cup, many on the LOW side of 300) When you mix an active dog with a high metabolism into the picture you can easily start seeing weight loss even on 4 cups.

I'd recommend looking into a higher calorie food. I know people don't like the idea of P&G being the owner but any of the EVO formulas or California Natural Chicken & Rice are my top picks for keeping weight on Chance during the spring/summer and most the fall when he's the most active. I mean I guess other foods COULD keep weight on him but I'd be feeding a LOT more of it and therefore picking up a LOT more out put as well. (As well as paying a LOT more lol) All those foods have over 500 calories per cup. :thumbup: I'm on a budget right now and switched Chance over to Sportmix 24/20. It's also over 500 calories and gives him what he needs to keep going now that he's out running -all day-. It's used by many hunters with great success. It's not the greatest ingredients list ever but it feeds really well. I'm quite pleased with it and at $24.99 for a 50lb bag, my wallet couldn't be happier. Lol!


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Whoa I was slow responding. xD Lots of new post.


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## TheNamesNelson (Apr 4, 2011)

I would say he is underweight. Just looking at his head size compared to his body and it just doesn't seem proportionate. He doesn't look severely underweight but he could use some muscle in his rear and some insulation for his mid section. I would say make sure his food is high enough quality and he is getting enough. Also might have him checked for intestinal parasites, could be a long shot but if hes eating a ton and still that thin he could have a worm.

I am in the process of building muscle on my boy and I do it by sprints, running up hills, and I will have hop on my bicycle and have him pull me on a harness (with my assistance pedaling)


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Thanks for the comments, I am going to look and compare calories in food and switch foods. The Natural Balance is obviously not providing him what he needs. From what I can find on the Internet, a cup of NB is less than 300 cals per cup. I think I'd be really skinny too if I was only eating ~800 cals a day! 

He had a Vet appointment a couple months ago, we did a fecal - no parasites... good thinking though. He was the same weight then as he is now.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

He looks good, more muscle is always a plus. I wonder if you could just add some raw chicken to his diet to achieve more protein without switching foods. 

Here is a recent thread with a few good food options I think. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...66-opinions-pinnacle-natural-balance-lid.html


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Which natural balance are you feeding?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

He may be a lanky "type" - so I don't know he will ever bulk up without the added testosterone an intact male would have

You may want to check into satin balls but I do think the uphill thing really helps with back muscle as that is what we do for my dysplastic female.  

I am feeding NB LID and not having any issues with keeping on weight but my dogs are older. I always adjust to excercise and my 72lb male (who is well muscled and solid-square) gets 4 cups a day when not expending a ton of energy


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Thanks unloader for the link.

I have about 2.5 bags of the NB right now, I would rather not switch until they are done because that is a waste of $$, but his health is my #1 concern. 

Does anyone think if I just add protein sources to his current food he'd gain weight? Could I just add some chicken breasts, ground beef, etc?


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

unloader said:


> Which natural balance are you feeding?


I give him 2 different kinds, fish & sweet potato and lamb & rice.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Sheesh, I just called NB and asked how many calories were in the Lamb meal and Rice formula, 337kcal/cup. Here I was thinking he was getting 475/cup. Stupid me for believing the internet.

My pup only gets 4 cups also (1348kcal), and I was thinking he was getting 1900! This thread will be very helpful for me also.


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## Scleropages (Jan 24, 2011)

I'd just step him up a cup a day and see what happens over a couple months' time. He doesn't look unhealthy, just a little thin. I've seen recipes for stuff to fatten up skinny dogs, but you probably want it to be mainly muscle weight, so I'd just give him more of his food.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I agree that is what I would do. I would work on building muscle with some kind of uphill actiity though


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

If he is healthy and active and has stamina, I don't see the need to add muscle except for appearance. As a former Marine and marathon runner, I always felt at my best when I was lean and unburdened by excess baggage. Whenever I added bulk from lifting weights I may have looked better but I couldn't run as before and I felt weighted down and sluggish.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Going to agree with Paddy here. I let my dog bulk up naturally with his regular exercises. Despite being neutered at 6 months at the same time he was dying of parvo, roughly 15lb underweight and getting little to NO nutrition from not eating (He came from animal control, I had no say in when he could be neutered and we didn't know he was so sick when we adopted him) he still bulks up quite nicely from his regular exercise and food. Mind you he's a bit more active than the OP's dog but I wouldn't specifically try to put any unnatural bulk on him. He's only 2 years old, he could still need time to put on muscle. I was still seeing some ribs and the hips at 2 with Chance. It wasn't until 2.5-3 he really started bulking up.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

The reason for saying to add muscle was not for physical appearance. It appears that Sigurd has very little muscle in his back legs which is a problem. It's not about bulking up, it's about being healthy and in good physical condition (one might even suggest working condition since this is a working breed).

Of course, that is just my observation from photos posted on an internet message board. It is up to Sigurd's Mom to figure out what is right for Sigurd since she can actually put her hands on him and feel his physical condition.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My perspective was from having a neutered dog that never did add any muscle in the back despite much running but on the flat.... Do not expect to try to make the incredible hulk, I just thinking building those back muscles a little more helps stabilize the hip joint and lower back.

For my dysplastic female both the ortho vet and the PT STRONGLY recommended the excercise I stated to maintain her good muscle tone back there for those reasons and were convinced it was instrumental in minimizing her pain.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I agree with the need for muscle and that this dog isn't very muscular from the looks of it. But going by his age, I think some of it could just be needing more time for him to mature especially since he was neutered at a year. Because he's still young he might not be able to physically put on a lot of muscle.

However, if swimming is an option, I'd recommend that for sure. It'll put on all over muscle without straining the joints. :thumbup:

JMO.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Even in that last picture, I think he's way too skinny...if he'll eat more, let him. I used Natural Balance years ago and liked it, but had a hard time keeping weight on my dogs. I would consider a change to a higher fat and or protein diet. The only reason some are going to look at the last picture and think he looks better is because it's darker and shades the rib cage more. If you look close, you can still see all the ribs, and there is a serious tuck behind the rib cage. There should be a "tuck" but it shouldn't be that sunken in. 

Personally I don't agree that this is just a lack of muscle, although I do agree that he is lacking in muscle. I like lean dogs, but he is way too skinny for my liking. That's way too many ribs visible. JMHO


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

satin balls are fat , sugar and cereal , calories. 
Weight loss or weight gain should never be quick.
The dog needs condition not so much weight.
In the lying down picture you can see the ribs , hip bones, outline of the shoulders .
There is little muscle and little fat for reserves. If the dog ever had an issue that put him off his food he wouldn't have anything to draw upon. I see that in they lying down I can't see any under coat or good coat or colour . That concerns me .
Replacing hair that is lost to shedding is an indicator of health.
Even in the picture where he is standing there still is no good muscle . Looks weak, but at least he has a coat .
Looks like canine anorexia .
If this were my dog I would have him checked by the vet for some metabolic problem.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what is your dog like ? Is he calm and laid back or hyper active .
Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dogs coat is thin and has lost pigment , now you say he is picky on his food . How is he when he moves . Is he co ordinated. How quickly does he tire.
Does he drink and pee a lot. How quickly does he tire. What is his weight .
Are you sure he does not have whipworm or some other parasite .
He may be difficient in some mineral . I would take him to a vet , if possible a vet who is holistic / naturapathic if there is one in your area that comes recommended.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

His coat isn't thin or lost pigment?? I don't understand where that is coming from. 
He is fine when he moves, totally coordinated. He doesn't tire quickly, seems like he NEVER tires. He doesn't drink or pee a lot, I think he pees and drinks the normal amount a dog should. He weighs 77 lbs. He got tested a few months back and he is normal, we had full blood work done too, no issues health wise. The Vet gives him a 100% clean bill of health.

I think it's just he doesn't eat a lot. If I give him a bowl of raw meat, it all goes down the hatch. Kibble? I think he thinks "yuck" but he does get at least 4 cups down each day.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

That dog needs a quality 30/20 formula. The best ones are Annamaet Ultra, Dr. Tim's Pursuit, Precise Agility and Healthwise Active. Red Paw is great too.

Good ones are Eagle Power Pack, Pro Plan Performance, Euk 30/20, Pro Pac HP & Blue Seal Performance Dog.

NB is an empty food.

Do not put that dog on a grain-free diet.

You live in Michigan. Call Dr. Tim Hunt at Dr. Tim's and get that food. He is famous sports vet in that area.

http://drtims.com/distributors/


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

To the pigment comment - if you are looking at the 2 pictures and comparing, I just think it has to to with 1. light 2. my bad photography skills 3. my low quality camera. The picture of him standing was taken in a dark forest, the other two were taken during the sunniest part of the day. IRL he is very pigmented, and his hair is normal.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

sable123 said:


> That dog needs a quality 30/20 formula. The best ones are Annamaet Ultra, Dr. Tim's Pursuit, Precise Agility and Healthwise Active. Red Paw is great too.
> 
> Good ones are Eagle Power Pack, Pro Plan Performance, Euk 30/20, Pro Pac HP & Blue Seal Performance Dog.
> 
> ...


My trainer feeds all his dog Pro Plan because he said
It is for working dogs.
My Great Dane has always been thin and rib bones showing. I had tried the satin balls and he would eat them but refuse to eat anything else. Vet told me he was just a lean dog.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Here are some more pictures, a couple views as requested:
Today out in the yard, front... I think he looks good and healthy here...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The back legs look a lot better muscled in the pictures


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

He is incredibly underweight IMHO...are you watching his stools closely? Any symptoms of EPI?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think he is too skinny. He looks like he needs to gain 10 pounds or more.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Been tested for EPI, negative on that. Stools are normal, he goes once a day and it's firm and proper.

I just went for a run with him, when he runs, he looks very masculine and muscular. I think it's the photos making him look overly underweight TBH. I think he he gained 5-10 pounds that would be the icing on the cake. He is energetic and is perfect over all. I think saying incredibly underweight is a bit much, I agree, the first 2 photos look bad... but he was panting, it was hot, the sun was bright, etc.


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

Maybe it's just me, but he looks terribly skinny to have a home to me. I have only seen shelter dogs skinnier. I think he needs atleast 15 pounds added to him...JMO


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

He looks thin, IMO.

It may just be a case of him requiring more food than usual. My male GSD is VERY active and has a nervous temperament, and he requires about 10 oz more food (raw) than my female GSD does to keep a healthy weight.

I would agree with Carmen on a vet visit to rule out health issues, however.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My first take would be to simply increase his food. I would start researching before the others.......People slam the Natrual Balance but a lot of dogs seem to do really well on it........

I am still very skeptical of any food with menadione and want to learn more about it (pro plan has it, nutro has it) --


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

wilbanks17 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but he looks terribly skinny to have a home to me. I have only seen shelter dogs skinnier. I think he needs atleast 15 pounds added to him...JMO


That's a little hurtful. Too skinny to have a home? That is harsh. I know you're judging off some bad photos, but seriously? :crazy:

I think it's just the pictures, I was just talking to a couple of my neighours, they agree he is skinny, but not terribly so. They said they see him running a lot and doing a lot of exercise, so they think it has to do with his active lifestyle. When he runs, you see muscle.

My Vet has run many tests on Sigurd, he isn't unhealthy, no signs of any illness. 

Now that I am thinking about his lifestyle/eating habits....I think he lost weight when he got attacked. The medication they put him on made him not want to eat very much. That was only four months ago.

I will increase his food intake. I've come to the conclusion that with the mixture of an active lifestyle and with his recent injury, he has lost weight and/or lost tone. I need to up his food to maintain a healthier look.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I have a lot of pictures of my dogs panting, it being hot, etc and none of them look that skinny. Sometimes when you see the dog daily, you grow used to what they look like. Try not to be so offended by the comments, and use them to help your dog get healthier.

Some dogs do require more food than the norm. My Micah is a big boy and eats quite a bit of a good quality food, he just requires a little extra.

It shouldn't take 4 months for a dog to gain weight back. I've had rescues that gained weight back quickly when properly fed.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

I am not really taking offense, I want to help my boy out. I just felt that comment was bit harsh and too much.

I think he just requires more food, he doesn't look like a starving stray though.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Looking at the latest photos you posted....I believe you should up his food intake. Since his stools are good, you can afford to increase the amount. As opposed with my pup, I think he is close to his max intake for kibble, due to his digestive problems. I'm starting him on a plant enzyme/ probiotic mix next week to see if it helps him utilize more of the Natural Balance.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

for comparison sake, here is my boy, 11 months and 75lbs. I think he could afford to gain a few, but I am content with his weight.

Now, most people will probably say he is underweight also...
(Sorry for the bad cell phone photos)


*******Photos removed, too large 1024 X 612 - must be no larger than 800 X 600 http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/154022-how-resize-your-pictures.html **


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## Bristol (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh yeah gain at least 20lbs. You can see bones!


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## ba1614 (Feb 17, 2010)

I too would want to add a little weight to him. I'm no expert, but I would start with another cup of kibble a day, and throw him a chicken quarter every other day. I know most here will likely feed the chicken raw, but I generously sprinkle garlic powder on them and bake them about 3/4 of the way.

I applaud you for trying to keep him slim though, there's an awful amount of really really fat dogs out there that people mistake for well loved.
Do you know how much his parents weigh?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would add digestive enzymes and probiotics to his diet, and supplement with raw meat.
His structure is narrow, so really he may need to pick up some weight, but he isn't a dog that needs to gain 10, IMO. I agree, muscle tone would make him look better.
And over the next year, he'll fill out a bit more.


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

I promise I didn't mean it to be hurtful. I should have phrased it differently. I just meant he was too skinny. Please accept my apology for being hurtful.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when I look at that first set of pictures I can see every rib well defined. The skin is just covering , like the skin on a bats wing , no fat . The coat looks sparse enough to allow the ribs to be seen . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wonder if the reason for the coat is overgrooming? GSD's have an undercoat for a reason, and many people take that out so they don't shed so much.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

ba1614 said:


> throw him a chicken quarter every other day. I know most here will likely feed the chicken raw, but I generously sprinkle garlic powder on them and bake them about 3/4 of the way.


PLEASE do not continue to do this!!! Baking/cooking BONE IN chicken is very, very bad. The bones become brittle and can splinter. The most that should be done to anything you're going to feed with bones is a very quick sear in a hot pain... a few seconds only.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

He's skinny obviously so I would begin by adding some extra kibble a day and a little raw. Have you had his thyroid checked though? 4 cups of food is a lot even for a dog getting adequate exercise. Mine get 2-3 cups a day depending on exercise and weigh 96 lbs. which actually looks lean on them considering their muscle tone. A hyer thyroid could definitely cause a dog to be that skinny as well as parasites, worms, and autoimmune diseases. If adding extra food doesn't bulk him up I'd have a full CBC SMAC done to make sure all is well


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Wow, that is a lot of food for a dog so skinny. Elsa's intake has gone down, but she gets 2 cups of Natural Balance/EVO mix a DAY. Granted, he's younger so his metabolism is probably higher, but I personally think he's not digesting his food well.

For a long time, we thought that Elsa had EPI. All the tests can back negative, however, I went ahead and started her on enzymes. Not the ones usually used for dogs with full blown EPI, but Prozyme. It's made a HUGE difference in her stools and keeping weight on and food intake down. Slightly different issue here because you say his stools are good...but I don't think he's getting what he should be from the food. Prozyme or another similar product do wonders for aiding in digestion and allowing them to get everything they can out of the food.

I personally think it has nothing to do with the food you're feeding. No, NB isn't the absolute highest in calories, but it isn't super low either. And, I think GSD's do great on it as a whole because it's so easy on the stomach. Take a dog that's already a bit underweight and hard to keep weight on and add something in higher fat or protein and it will probably go through him even faster.

The Prozyme is super cheap...we pay about $11 for a container. She gets a 1/4 tsp with each meal. The container lasts months. It is well worth it considering how long I can make a bag of kibble last now.


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## Toffifay (Feb 10, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Wow, that is a lot of food for a dog so skinny. Elsa's intake has gone down, but she gets 2 cups of Natural Balance/EVO mix a DAY. Granted, he's younger so his metabolism is probably higher, but I personally think he's not digesting his food well.
> 
> For a long time, we thought that Elsa had EPI. All the tests can back negative, however, I went ahead and started her on enzymes. Not the ones usually used for dogs with full blown EPI, but Prozyme. It's made a HUGE difference in her stools and keeping weight on and food intake down. Slightly different issue here because you say his stools are good...but I don't think he's getting what he should be from the food. Prozyme or another similar product do wonders for aiding in digestion and allowing them to get everything they can out of the food.
> 
> ...


 If Sigurd is this thin on that much food, it would seem that he isn't processing the food properly. However, in an earlier post Sigurd's Mom stated that he only pooped once a day. This seems like a conflict...
If Sigurd was mine, I think I would try increasing his food (maybe 1/2 cup at each meal) (especially if he will eat more of it) and also add some extra meat, the prozyme can't hurt either.

If you want to go "old school" (I'm being facetious) you go switch him to a good ole fashioned performance food (like Sable123 suggested) 30% protein and 20% fat. These are not grain free and usually contain corn, but are amazing for hard keepers, dogs with high metabolism and athletes.

I do think he needs to gain weight and muscle, but I don't think he looks homeless!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm going to agree that the dog is underweight for his size and body frame.
I don't think he looks "starving" or malnourished.....just thin and underweight.
I'm also going to agree with Jane and some others...that he should be put on digestive enzymes.
Whether a person is pro or con "grain free" food......one of the highest caloric foods is EVO. *Personally...I like the food very much*.
Also...Earthborn Holistic Primitive is a higher caloric food, around 465? kcal/ per cup.....*Also...a very good food*.
As for foods with grains....as mentioned... Pro Plan Performance, Eukanuba Sporting Formula, ...and Eagle & Diamond also have a higher protein/calorie food formulated for highly active dogs.
You could also try adding canned Tripe to his food....it is full of amino acids, and aids the stomach in natural digestion.
Best of luck.....just find a food that your dog can "maintain well" on.
JMO


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Just because a dog only poops once a day doesn't mean they are getting everything they can out of it nutrionally.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> For a long time, we thought that Elsa had EPI. All the tests can back negative, however, I went ahead and started her on enzymes. Not the ones usually used for dogs with full blown EPI, but Prozyme. It's made a HUGE difference in her stools and keeping weight on and food intake down. Slightly different issue here because you say his stools are good...but I don't think he's getting what he should be from the food. Prozyme or another similar product do wonders for aiding in digestion and allowing them to get everything they can out of the food.


Thats the same experience I had with Emma. I use Jarrow Enzymes-Plus though. 

Since he is a picky eater and 4 cups is all you can get into him, I'd compare the calorie content and switch to a food thats higher when you get a chance. I made up a document on my computer before when I was looking at adding calories for Emma, comparing calorie contents. I can see if I still have it saved somewhere.


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## MagicalReality_Designs (Nov 19, 2010)

I just have a question, I read through this post and I see alot of people writing my dog weighs this much, my dog eats this much, my dog this and that. When you post your coments on your dogs can you all add the age of your dog too? Small dogs eat less, medium size eat bit more and full grown dogs eat more, Dogs should be fed (in my opinion) according to their weight/age. I do agree that the dog looks a bit too slim for me, but I am no expert, I have a 8 month old King Shepherd.


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## MagicalReality_Designs (Nov 19, 2010)

Just to add my 8 month old male, not sure how old yours is but maybe compare the body or muscle, mine will appear muscular and a bit bigger that average, because he is a King Shepherd, but that is not a huge difference. Also to add, I can feel his ribs. NOT see them, I can feel and see his muscles too.

Photo edited for size - please resize and post again
Jean
Admin


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## zeus von entringer staal (Jan 3, 2011)

your dog looks hungry  have you tried free feeding, let him judge how much to eat, at least until he gains weight and add some real meat maybe (?) Salmon Oil on the kibble for taste , coat and skin ..def calories there also. No matter what suggestions just increase his calories, he will gain weight just like us people.  Send us pics in 2 weeks when he has gained a few hopefully!!!!


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I have to agree he looks like he could use a few extra pounds. I know you said you still have a few bags of his food. Would you consider one meal his kibble then one meal raw meat? I did that for my dog for several months and it worked good. Then when you are done with this kibble you can switch.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Toffifay said:


> If Sigurd is this thin on that much food, it would seem that he isn't processing the food properly. However, in an earlier post Sigurd's Mom stated that he only pooped once a day. This seems like a conflict...
> If Sigurd was mine, I think I would try increasing his food (maybe 1/2 cup at each meal) (especially if he will eat more of it) and also add some extra meat, the prozyme can't hurt either.
> 
> If you want to go "old school" (I'm being facetious) you go switch him to a good ole fashioned performance food (like Sable123 suggested) 30% protein and 20% fat. These are not grain free and usually contain corn, but are amazing for hard keepers, dogs with high metabolism and athletes.
> ...


I agree. I switched Micah and Dante to a 30/20 food and both picked up weight (a healthy amount, they didn't sudddenly pack it on) and have done AWESOME on it. Neither of them has a digestive disorder, and this coming from an owner of an EPI dog, so I'd know it if I saw it. They were just always a bit lean for my liking and now look fabulous.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

To answer some questions:

I free feed him right now, I just add 2 cups of food at a time to his bowl and keep track of his intake in my head. When he was pup I had a schedule, but he never wanted to eat when I put it down. Now he goes in and eats what he wants, when he wants. 

I am totally up for feeding raw for a meal. What is a good "meal" of raw to feed him?

I thought 4 cups was normal? Another Shepherd on my street (female, 9 years old) eats 4 + cups of food day and is just as active as Sigurd. My Vet never seemed to say that was a large amount for him, every time I see her she asks how much food and what brand...

Sigurd's stats: 2 years, 77 lbs.

I can try to put him on an enzyme, thanks for the suggestion. I'll read up on them. What are some recommend brands?

I'll post some pictures in the future when he gains some weight.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Rerun said:


> I agree. I switched Micah and Dante to a 30/20 food and both picked up weight (a healthy amount, they didn't sudddenly pack it on) and have done AWESOME on it. Neither of them has a digestive disorder, and this coming from an owner of an EPI dog, so I'd know it if I saw it. They were just always a bit lean for my liking and now look fabulous.


What 30/20 food do you feed?


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

There have been several good performance foods recommended here, I would try just about any of them for yours.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would first add more of what I am feeding and add some prozyme. Funny I went back and looked at the venison and it has pea protein in it (so does orijen I believ) - aha - there you go, explains why the venison gives some gas. Probably put it in lamb too. Interesting............

THEN if you want to change food -- go back and take your time to make a careful selection.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Rerun said:


> There have been several good performance foods recommended here, I would try just about any of them for yours.


Me too, again:

Best In Class:

Annamaet Ultra
Dr. Tim's Pursuit
Red Paw 32


Runners Up:

Healthwise Active
Euk 28/18 or 30/20
Pro Plan Performance
Eagle Power Adult
Precise Endurance
Pro Pac HP
Blue Seal Performance Dog


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> To answer some questions:
> 
> I *free feed* him right now, I just add 2 cups of food at a time to his bowl and keep track of his intake in my head. When he was pup I had a schedule, but he never wanted to eat when I put it down. Now he goes in and eats what he wants, when he wants.
> 
> ...


I'd stop free feeding him and put him on a schedule. That way you can better determine how much he's eating and his 'normal' appetite. Specially if that changes cause it's one of the first things vets ask when we take in a sick dog. Much better to say 'My dog ate 2 cups at 8 am this morning' then say 'I'm not sure but I think maybe perhaps possibly....'

And all our dogs are different! I know I change up the AMOUNT I feed my dogs sometimes depending on the time of year. So I look at them and if they are too heavy I cut back a bit, and if too skinny I add.

To me, your dog is TOO skinny and not just a lack of muscle. In fact if you do up the exercise and muscle him up (which isn't a bad idea) remember then it's even MORE important to up the amount of food with the exercise.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I wouldn't continue the Natural Balance if it was me. For the price, feeding more is going to burn a hole in your wallet. Even if you've got the money to spend, it's IMO, not worth feeding a dog that much. More food is just going to up the chances of bloating.

I'd switch to a higher calorie food and continue feeding the 4 cups to see if he puts on weight. Anything over 500 calories. (It'll add an extra cup or so without actually FEEDING more)

I'll go ahead and repost my list of any EVO formulas, California Natural Chicken & Rice or Sportmix 24/20 in the black bag. I use/have used them to keep weight on Chance with minimum amounts of food (2-2.5 cups tops, he's a 50lb adult male) during times of high exercise. (ie. running 10 miles a day, swimming, fetch/frisbee, agility, dog park, 1-2 hours of walking, ect a DAY) None of them have ever failed me. :thumbup:


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

My boy is a smaller dog, about 24" at the withers, and he is a long coat so it is very hard to tell when he is at his best weight, and I simply could NOT get him to gain weight. At 16 months old he weighed about 57-60 lbs. It bothered me a lot. He also had bouts of diarrhea especially if I added treats that his system was not used to. Eventually what I decided to do was to feed a 50/50 ratio of kibble and raw. That combined with maturity and the fact that he got less exercise over the winter, he is now on a diet. 

I feed him about a pound of raw every morning before going to work. In the evening he gets about 1 cup-cup and half of TOTW High Prairie (venison). He got up to 66 lbs with 2 cups of kibble. I know he gets the protein needed by feeding raw, and the calories needed with the kibble. 

As soon as the weather gets nicer he will get much more exercise and I very well might have to up the kibble again, but for now he is starting to look and feel right. 

It is a delicate balance with dogs that have issues with their weight and not always easy to put it on them. My girl, on the other hand gains weight easily, and she loves to clean up anything left over kibble-wise. Z leaves kibble in his dish and Nadia will sneak in a gorge herself...no wonder she needs to diet all the time...LOL

I hope you can find what works best for your boy with less headaches than I had finding Z's balance! We all love our dogs more than life itself and I know you are no different! Sigurd is so handsome!!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> To answer some questions:
> 
> I free feed him right now, I just add 2 cups of food at a time to his bowl and keep track of his intake in my head. When he was pup I had a schedule, but he never wanted to eat when I put it down. Now he goes in and eats what he wants, when he wants.
> 
> ...


If he is 77 pounds and that 'slender' then he is a big dog. You stated that you feed LID. I don't understand why you would feed a limited ingredients diet to an underweight dog. Try TOTW High Prairie or another high quality grain free food. Add a little cooked (leave the grease in) lean hamburger to his 2 cup feedings, he will free feed himself a lot more. If he is pooping only once a day then he isn't getting enough food IMHO.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

ChancetheGSD said:


> I wouldn't continue the Natural Balance if it was me. For the price, feeding more is going to burn a hole in your wallet. Even if you've got the money to spend, it's IMO, not worth feeding a dog that much. More food is just going to up the chances of bloating.
> 
> I'd switch to a higher calorie food and continue feeding the 4 cups to see if he puts on weight. Anything over 500 calories. (It'll add an extra cup or so without actually FEEDING more)
> 
> I'll go ahead and repost my list of any EVO formulas, California Natural Chicken & Rice or Sportmix 24/20 in the black bag. I use/have used them to keep weight on Chance with minimum amounts of food (2-2.5 cups tops, he's a 50lb adult male) during times of high exercise. (ie. running 10 miles a day, swimming, fetch/frisbee, agility, dog park, 1-2 hours of walking, ect a DAY) None of them have ever failed me. :thumbup:


That Black Bag Sportmix is a good food for hard keepers, so cheap too like $.50 a lb.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

When Jackson was little I had a hard time getting and keeping weight on him. He was very skinny and I could feel his ribs pretty easily. Volume wise he could tolerate 4 and a half cups, so I had to find a food with higher calories and sometimes add some canned food or fresh meat. Just find a food with the highest amount of calories you can that he can tolerate and he should put on weight pretty fast.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Free feeding--huge red flag! I totally think it cause picky dogs to be pickier. I had a foster once that was very underweight--you could totally see his ribs just like Sigurd...he was maybe even worse. He was an owner surrender, and the owners said he just wouldn't eat...that he had food in front of him all the time and just grazed.

Well, guess what. At the end of 2 weeks wiith me and a little tough lovin'...he was eating his meal as soon as it went down. No more picky eater, and he packed on some weight.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Free feeding--huge red flag! I totally think it cause picky dogs to be pickier. I had a foster once that was very underweight--you could totally see his ribs just like Sigurd...he was maybe even worse. He was an owner surrender, and the owners said he just wouldn't eat...that he had food in front of him all the time and just grazed.
> 
> Well, guess what. At the end of 2 weeks wiith me and a little tough lovin'...he was eating his meal as soon as it went down. No more picky eater, and he packed on some weight.


Agreed that free feeding is not for everyone. My dog has been free feeding since 6 months, which is a year and a half ago. She has maintained a healthy weight all along. She eats on her own schedule and gets all she wants and needs.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Sable..........what is the actual name of the "Black bag sportmix"???


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> If he is 77 pounds and that 'slender' then he is a big dog. You stated that you feed LID. I don't understand why you would feed a limited ingredients diet to an underweight dog. Try TOTW High Prairie or another high quality grain free food. Add a little cooked (leave the grease in) lean hamburger to his 2 cup feedings, he will free feed himself a lot more. If he is pooping only once a day then he isn't getting enough food IMHO.


I'm so confused why people recommend things just to do it without actually knowing? Both TOTW and Natural Balance (most forumulas) are grain free. TOTW is one of the lowest calorie grain-frees on the market. I think the HIGHEST amount of calories any of their formulas have is 300-something. Hardly something you can use to pack the weight on a dog. 

If you truly are interested in getting him on a higher calorie food, go with one of the following:
Canine Caviar (599 kcal)
Earthboarn Holistic (717 kcal)
EVO Forumulas (~500 +/- kcal depending on which formula)
Timberwolf's Organic (521 kcal)

These are all the kibble I know of with over 500 calories a cup. If you are going to switch his food to put on weight, these are the types of foods you shoudl be considering. Not TOTW with 350 or whatever it is. There are others that are up near 500--Orijen, Canidae, and a few others.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> To answer some questions:
> 
> I free feed him right now, I just add 2 cups of food at a time to his bowl and keep track of his intake in my head. When he was pup I had a schedule, but he never wanted to eat when I put it down. Now he goes in and eats what he wants, when he wants.
> 
> ...


I would see what is available to you for the raw and what is in your price range if your looking to try a frozen. Bravo is very good you can check out their website. They also have a calculator that you can use to figure out how much to feed per meal. This calculator should work for any raw. 404

If your local pet store carries Bravo find out if they will give you a case discount. My store did and I would buy the 10 lb tubes, 3 in a case. I would then let 1 tube sit on the counter until it was slightly thawed so I could cut it with a very sharp knife. I would cut into 4ths then refreeze.

Starting with frozen is a great way to get started with raw. That is what I did for a long time before I transitioned to making my own. I still feed Bravo from time to time for something different.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Justine......the Earthborn Holistic amount of 717 calories is gross calories.
The actual metabolic calories is between 435 Kcals and 465 kcals per cup.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

sable123 said:


> That Black Bag Sportmix is a good food for hard keepers, so cheap too like $.50 a lb.


Yep! I pay $24.99 for a 50lb bag from Tractor Supply.  Can't beat that! And Chance is doing fabulous on it.

To the OP, it's Sportmix Energy Plus 24/20. It comes in a black bag like this:


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Oh excuse me, it was Robinhuerta who asked about the name of it.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I'm so confused why people recommend things just to do it without actually knowing? Both TOTW and Natural Balance (most forumulas) are grain free. TOTW is one of the lowest calorie grain-frees on the market. I think the HIGHEST amount of calories any of their formulas have is 300-something. Hardly something you can use to pack the weight on a dog.
> 
> If you truly are interested in getting him on a higher calorie food, go with one of the following:
> Canine Caviar (599 kcal)
> ...


To the OP, you have access to many experts who can read a dog food bag. Surely, you can as well. If your dog will not free feed himself enough from 'the bag' I still say you might consider adding something he considers irresistible (that is also good for him).


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> Justine......the Earthborn Holistic amount of 717 calories is gross calories.
> The actual metabolic calories is between 435 Kcals and 465 kcals per cup.


 
Oops--you're right, sorry. I was going through a chart I have of the calories in various grain free foods and I missed that with the Earthbound in my hurry. -- the actual metabolic calories is 445 kcal/cup. Still higher than what he's on now!


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Oops--you're right, sorry. I was going through a chart I have of the calories in various grain free foods and I missed that with the Earthbound in my hurry. -- the actual metabolic calories is 445 kcal/cup. Still higher than what he's on now!


Calories is just part of it. It is more complex than that. The proportion and type of carbohydrate, protein and fat will have as much to do with weight maintenance as calories.

Corn and oats will add weight more reliably than any other carb.

That Sportmix is a good example. That is a hunting blend, 24/20 with corn, the right mix for dogs that do a combination of aerobic and non-aerobic work.

With that grade of food, you have to buy it from a reputable company and MPF is.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Who carries the Sportmix blend?.....any websites?....costs?


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

robinhuerta said:


> Who carries the Sportmix blend?.....any websites?....costs?


I pay $24.99 for 50lb of Sportmix at Tractor Supply. I've heard from other people if you buy it in bulk (I think it's 6 or more bags) they'll take $1 off each bag. (But I've only got 1 dog to feed so no need to buy bulk lol) We also have some local stores that carry it.

Sportmix - Premium Dog Food

They have a link at the bottom where you can buy it online and where you can find it locally.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Thanks Chance!


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Thanks Chance!


The red bag is also a good blend, bigger chunks too.

Sportmix - High Energy Adult Chunk


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Just to clarify:

When I worry about the amount of muscle a skinny dog is carrying, it's because if a dog is really too thin, he will start stealing calories from his muscles--"digesting" his own muscle mass in order to survive. So, a really underweight dog will be lacking in muscle mass. If a dog has all its ribs showing but has huge thigh muscles, you know that that dog is getting just the right amount of food to support that muscle mass, but not so much to put on any extra fat.

In this case, I agree the dog is too thin, not insanely so, but I think he could be carrying more muscle--he has some muscling in the thighs, but not that much along the spine or through the shoulders. 

I'd recommend feeding a bit more food per meal and adding in either canned dog food or hamburger or perhaps some ground tripe with each meal to encourage eating as well as to add calories. 

I'd also consider finding a higher calorie dog food--but it doesn't have to be changed as long as the dog is getting sufficient calories.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> To the OP, you have access to many experts who can read a dog food bag. Surely, you can as well. If your dog will not free feed himself enough from 'the bag' I still say you might consider adding something he considers irresistible (that is also good for him).


I used NB because over the winter he was thriving on it. I can read a dog food bag just fine. I add an egg to his breakfast couple times a week, sardines a couple times a week, usually throw on some yogurt, scrap meat, etc through out the day.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Personally, I see no issue in free feeding. I KNOW how much he is eating, I am not guessing at the end of the day. It's not hard to count 1 to 4 for me. He usually eats his 2 cups in the morning when I wake up, the bowl is empty until around dinner time, and I fill it up with 2 more cups and it's empty before we sleep. I don't have a set "time" to do it, it just gets done when I feel like it or if he looks like he wants food.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> Personally, I see no issue in free feeding. I KNOW how much he is eating, I am not guessing at the end of the day. It's not hard to count 1 to 4 for me. He usually eats his 2 cups in the morning when I wake up, the bowl is empty until around dinner time, and I fill it up with 2 more cups and it's empty before we sleep. I don't have a set "time" to do it, it just gets done when I feel like it or if he looks like he wants food.


I gave an actual example as to why it's a problem that was very similar to your situation. And you still don't know when he's "off" his food if he just picks at it all day rather than eat when the bowl is put down.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Well, Sigurd had his first completely raw meal last night. He LOVED it, I've never seen him actually eat something all at once! Once he had completed the meal, he was licking his bowl, totally wanting more! I think he loved chomping the bones in the chicken. Since eating last night, I've noticed he actually has an appetite! Gave him 2 cups of kibble with some Greek yogurt mixed in and he ATE IT ALL, in less than 5 minutes. Woah! I am amazed! 

Thanks for all the suggestions regarding his weight, I am hoping within a month he gets more weight on him! I purchased him a product called Prozyme, he seems to like it, hopefully it helps! Once the current NB food is done, we'll be switching kibbles. Not sure which brand yet, still doing research. He will have 1 raw meal per day.

I am feeding him just one meat source for now, chicken - I read it was the best to start with that.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

My male Loki had A LOT of problems gaining weight on Kibble. 

I would try my darnest to get him to eat as much as possible. Tried feeding 4 cups in one feeding then adding more in the evening. 

He just did not have the interest to eat the kibble enough to gain weight. I constantly got comments about how thin he was. 

After switching him to raw he has gained weight and looks fantastic. Granted when he was thin he was young about 7 months to a year

























After being fed Raw he would eat his FULL recommended portions and then some. I was able to add a little fat into his diet which he desperately needed. and After being on raw he turned out very nicely and filled out. 




















You will get there have patience. You just don't have an easy keeper.

I do highly recommend not free feeding. But since you are switching to raw you dont have to worry about that anyways. Post some pictures of how Sigurd looks after a month or two on Raw. I would love to see the difference!

and just for reference here he is at 2 years (one whole year on raw)









and here he is recently with actually a little fat from winter!


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

4thedawgies: your dog is SO beautiful!! a unique sable color....i want!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Maris, how tall is Loki? He looks like a bigger version of my Kaiser in some of your pics.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> Well, Sigurd had his first completely raw meal last night. He LOVED it, I've never seen him actually eat something all at once! Once he had completed the meal, he was licking his bowl, totally wanting more! I think he loved chomping the bones in the chicken. Since eating last night, I've noticed he actually has an appetite! Gave him 2 cups of kibble with some Greek yogurt mixed in and he ATE IT ALL, in less than 5 minutes. Woah! I am amazed!
> 
> Thanks for all the suggestions regarding his weight, I am hoping within a month he gets more weight on him! I purchased him a product called Prozyme, he seems to like it, hopefully it helps! Once the current NB food is done, we'll be switching kibbles. Not sure which brand yet, still doing research. He will have 1 raw meal per day.
> 
> I am feeding him just one meat source for now, chicken - I read it was the best to start with that.


Feeding this dog a raw meal is only going to make this situation worse. How much kibble does he get in a day?

He really needs about 5 cups a day of one of those 30/20 foods I mentioned until his weight is ideal.

Throw the NB away, stop the raw feeding (for now anyway) and get some weight on him.

Make it easy on yourself, go with the Euk Premium 30/20.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Really Sable 123, If Sigurd is now eating joyfully why should he be fed Euk ick food? 

I agree, the NB is not great for putting on weight, but feeding raw is very nutritious, regardless of how you feel about it. 

I read that Sigurd was also eating green tripe which has many nutritional benefits. 
I would also give him some scrambled eggs w/ cheese daily, most dogs will eat them readily.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Really Sable 123, If Sigurd is now eating joyfully why should he be fed Euk ick food?
> 
> I agree, the NB is not great for putting on weight, but feeding raw is very nutritious, regardless of how you feel about it.
> 
> ...


Because a very skinny dog is simply getting a bowl of water with that approach and it will just stimulate ketosis.

Onyx, you can play food snob all you want, but if your dogs were eating that Euk, like champion hunting and show dogs do everyday, they would be just as healthy as they are now.

There is nothing wrong with Eukanuba, especially the 30/20 I mentioned.

Just quit the useless food elitism. What you do is no better than what millions do every day.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

4theDoggies -- that is a big change . Really nice .


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Her dog is picky~ the reason for his weight...if he eats a chicken leg 1/4 readily, but puts his nose up to kibble, how is that bad? Over time, she can add variety and raw feeding is much healthier(when done correctly) than a processed kibble.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

food snobs unite ! Feed the dog raw , see what and how he changes . He obviously knows he needs it .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I hope Sigurd's mom will take before and after pics....I've seen the difference in a quite a few dogs, and it is always for the better.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Because a very skinny dog is simply getting a bowl of water with that approach and it will just stimulate ketosis.
> 
> Onyx, you can play food snob all you want, but if your dogs were eating that Euk, like champion hunting and show dogs do everyday, they would be just as healthy as they are now.
> 
> ...


Nothing you said makes any sense. Hoards of people put weight on their dogs feeding raw and not feeding Eukanuba. 

And maybe since this is a GSD board, we shouldn't bother feeding what champion hunters feed, but rather what champion SchH dogs eat. Most I know are on RAW or one of those fancy-smacy-snobby grain free foods.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

corn for a dog , that is so other century.
Carmen


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

sable123 said:


> Feeding this dog a raw meal is only going to make this situation worse. How much kibble does he get in a day?
> 
> He really needs about 5 cups a day of one of those 30/20 foods I mentioned until his weight is ideal.
> 
> ...


This is your opinion and holds no weight in a debate of kibble vs. Raw. I advise you to take a look at the before and after photos of my dog who had the exact same problem as the OP's dog. 

My dog has put on and maintained a perfect weight being fed a balanced raw diet. The other dogs fed raw also have beautiful weights, clean eyes, sparkling teeth etc.

Switching her dog to raw is a good choice. I do hope the OP keeps us informed on her dogs process. Maybe seeing it for yourself will open your mind. 

It most certainly is not feeding a bowl of water.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Maris, how tall is Loki? He looks like a bigger version of my Kaiser in some of your pics.


Loki stands at 27" just a touch over the standard


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## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

Telling someone whose dog is enthusiastically eating that raw is only making the situation worse sounds more like food elitism than what Jane said, IMO. 

Why would you tell someone to stop doing something that's working to improve the health of their dog just to "make it easy on themselves"?

Sorry, I don't get it.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> food snobs unite ! Feed the dog raw , see what and how he changes . He obviously knows he needs it .


I'm with you.
If I had a bigger freezer in "Pedro's Farm Mansion Estates" and a bit more money I'd go raw.
I have a dog, not a donkey (despite the ears!) she ain't doin' corn.

My dog definitely eats better than I do.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

DeeMcB said:


> Telling someone whose dog is enthusiastically eating that raw is only making the situation worse sounds more like food elitism than what Jane said, IMO.
> 
> Why would you tell someone to stop doing something that's working to improve the health of their dog just to "make it easy on themselves"?
> 
> Sorry, I don't get it.


You don't get because you don't understand basic nutrition. And yes it is a bowl of water. 2lbs of fresh chicken is about 1.25lbs of water.

This dog needs food.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

sable123 said:


> Feeding this dog a raw meal is only going to make this situation worse.


Hmm... tell that to Nova.

When I got him, pre-raw feeding:









A few months later with a well balanced raw prey model diet:









Note the positive change in not only weight, but also coat condition and general appearance. IMO, raw is the safest and most effective way of putting weight on a dog.



> And yes it is a bowl of water. 2lbs of fresh chicken is about 1.25lbs of water.


The water content in raw is a GOOD thing. It just means the dog doesn't have to drink as much out of the water bowl to make up the difference from dehydrated kibble.

And chicken alone DOES NOT a raw diet make. I don't think anyone is trying to say this. Rawfed dogs need meat, bones and organ: and that includes RED meat, not just chicken.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Really great post Rorr-n-GSDs, and great photo examples of a dog gaining weight on raw. The proof is in the pudding. 

Sable123 if you think that feeding entirely chicken to a dog is considered a raw diet, then I find it understandable you came to the conclusion about raw you did. But you were unfortunately shown the wrong way to feed. Like Rott-n-GSDs explained a raw diet needs to be balanced with proper ratios of bones, organ and meat. Its not something you just throw to your dog and expect it to be fine and dandy.


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## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

sable123 said:


> You don't get because you don't understand basic nutrition. And yes it is a bowl of water. 2lbs of fresh chicken is about 1.25lbs of water.


So we should feed malnourished children Twinkies?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

as long as a glass of milk is included.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The moisture content of meat is a good thing , helps with digestion. 
Carmen


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

DeeMcB said:


> So we should feed malnourished children Twinkies?


Foolish statement. Professionals that have hard keepers like the OP's dog use the big gun foods that I mentioned more than once in this thread. They don't mess with supplements and toppings. The trick to dealing with this type of dog is feeding a highly concentrated food on a consistent basis. 

It is just as bad for a dog to be underweight as overweight. Underweight dogs are much more likely to bloat and have a harder time recovering from infections.

Read what I wrote, about bloat risk.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I do believe that dogs on raw are at a lower bloat risk. I do not understand why sable123 must always shove the kibble down our throats. There are many people on this group that have raw fed for years including pups and they are fine. I have seen the difference in my dogs both current and past. I say do what works for you and your dog.

Can't wait to see pics on how he looks in a couple of months.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I've been feeding raw since 1993, and don't see myself ever changing back to kibble. I do keep Orijen around for training and tracking treats....that's the only place I think kibble works better than raw  

I did see a huge difference in my dogs when we switched from kibble to raw, but I have to admit that kibbles sold now are far better than what was available 20 years ago!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I've packed weight on many underweight foster dogs using raw.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I did too, Lin. Amazing coat change, and muscle tone was stealth after 9 weeks of raw vs the donated kibble.
But I felt guilty feeding a foster raw, when I knew the poor thing would be put back on kibble with the new owner. 
Because lets face it, raw is inconvenient and can be more expensive if you don't research all your options for feeding.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I typically feed the fosters both kibble and raw. Chaos, my current foster is on 4Health and raw. I started him just on the kibble and he was severely malnurished when he arrived. He was making a steady increase in weight especially muscle building because his body had eaten the muscles away. But it was very slow, with multiple plateaus. Once we had his stomach stronger I started adding in raw, and he has really started to blossom both with muscle mass and finally adding some body fat.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think question relevant because of OP

I fed raw for about 7 years then switched back to premium foods when I was fighting a chicken allergy on one of my dogs (3 dogs at the time). I really can't say I saw any difference - other than with kibble I must give the dogs something to chew on too keep teeth clean. I really can't see anything superior about the chicken I can buy at the store unless it is free range and that gets very expensive.

Do raw fed dogs live longer? I seem to average about 12-14 years and really have not encountered many health problems except with one dog who was allergic and had all kinds of digestion problems, perianal fistulas, etc from day one and I think a lot of that was genetics. (the only dyplastic dog I have owned was the one that was rawfed per the breeders directions from day 1 to her diagnosis at 3) 

One of the issues I had was in finding (at a reasonable price) a suitable variety of meat/bone sources. Here, meat going out of date must be destroyed so you really have to get it the day before which means a lot of marketing. I would buy the boxes of frozen chicken at the poultry processsing plant though. .... Easier to get a roation with a premium kibble. 

Just some other observations. I am open minded I think.


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## Алексей (Apr 23, 2011)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> I get a lot of comments that Sigurd is way too skinny, mostly from people who have over weight animals. I usually don't think too much into it but I took these pictures yesterday and noticed his ribs are very visible. Is he too skinny??
> 
> He gets 4 cups a day of Natural Balance food, sardines 2x a week, yogurt/eggs a couple of times, 1 fish pill/day. He doesn't seem to act hungry. He gets 30 minutes of running time each day, plus various play times in the yard/house. I'd consider him pretty active.
> 
> ...


A visit to your dogs doctor is best as you are feeding him very well and know what you are doing, It's difficult to tell on just pictures what may be the reason for his appearance.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I know I'm coming in late to this thread but I wanted to highlight something:



Sigurd's Mom said:


> From different angles he doesn't look so thin, but when I pet him it is kind of like I am rubbing a washboard.


What you described there is one of the CLASSIC signs vet describe in dogs that ARE underweight.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

sable123 said:


> Feeding this dog a raw meal is only going to make this situation worse. How much kibble does he get in a day?


Feeding a skinny dog a raw diet is NOT "only going to make this situation worse".

Check out KC's post on her boy Kaiser.

And how about Sadie??

These are REAL LIFE examples of dogs that gained weight (as well as other improvements) after being fed a raw diet.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

My comments are narrow in scope. I am not anti-raw so long as the person knows what he or she is doing. From what I can see, some do and some MOST CERTAINLY don't. Just look at some of the posts from, sadly, young puppy owners.

The internet has made everyone an "expert", with the dogs paying the price.

No offense to the OP, despite good intentions, you have been keeping a dog in poor condition and nothing anyone can say will convince me that you should feed this dog a raw diet. If you didn't notice the condition of your animal, then you don't have the expertise to create a diet from scratch.

If we were having this discussion 25 years ago, then you might be right about 99% of the commercial foods available. Really, the only ones that were any good were the Abady granular diets and the original Annamaet and Eukanuba foods.

Now, it is a different story. Almost all the criticism of modern kibble is not backed by science in any way. In fact, most of the maladies you see in dogs are related to over vaccination, early neutering and lack of exercise, not diet. You can also throw over bathing in there.

Does it surprise you that most dogs are overweight and in poor health looking at the owners. The average women is a size 14 and men on average have a 40 inch waist.

My vet is convinced that the vast majority people that claim their dogs have allergies are crazy because the tests never show anything wrong.

A dog can't even scratch nowadays without being subjected to vapid LID foods.

I am also amazed how gullible people are with respect to grains vs. potatoes, shows absolutely zero knowledge of basic nutrition. If your kids insisted on having a bowl of potatoes for breakfast every day instead of oatmeal or whole grain cereal you would be horrified and your kid would be on the diabetes train going full speed.

Very sad.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Unfortunately sable, all you seem to do is talk about what the "pros" and "big wigs" do--it seems you mention that at least once in every thread. Unfortunatley for you, many people on this forum are indeed exposed to the "big wigs" in the GSD world, and most that I know actually do feed RAW. So really, I don't think many people care that all the top dogs in hunting trials are are Eukanuba or huskies in Alaska are on --whatever it is you always talk about.

Her dog is not deathly ill with an immediate need to put weight on. If she tries RAW and does not see improvement, she can try another route--whether it is one of your suggestions or someone else's.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Does it surprise you that most dogs are overweight and in poor health looking at the owners. The average women is a size 14 and men on average have a 40 inch waist.


Completely irrelevant.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

sable123 said:


> My comments are narrow in scope. I am not anti-raw so long as the person knows what he or she is doing. From what I can see, some do and some MOST CERTAINLY don't. *Just look at some of the posts from, sadly, young puppy owners.*
> 
> *The internet has made everyone an "expert", with the dogs paying the price.*


Sable123 I can agree with you here. However to clarify on the puppy comment in defense of raw. Puppies have a much stricter diet and need for nutrition. They're systems are extremely sensitive. I have seen some dogs raised on raw by owners who felt they were doing their dog good. Unfortunately some VERY nice show prospect dogs with outstanding bone, phenomenal pigment, beautiful coats etc. quickly went down hill. Why? After watching other dogs out of the litters grow up along with the one fed raw, my only explanations is the dogs were fed raw. 

So unfortunately the internet made someone an expert and the dogs paid the price.

This is why I always recommend all raw feeders unless HIGHLY experienced to feed kibble in the first 6 -9 months of a puppies life. I cannot justify risking loosing a potential show prospects growth development and structure on feeding raw and ruining the dog. 

Its no offense to any raw feeders about my telling them not to feed puppies raw, I just think its very very hard to balance out a diet for a puppy. Our adult dogs bodies are very flexible and adjust well to changes. You can balance their diets over a period of a few days versus a very strict per day type deal. 

Their calcium intake is not as big of a deal because they are not relying on how much is given to use for a growing body.


However, I still have to disagree with you on your kibble comments. If the OP can give their dog a balanced diet of
*10% Organ / 10% Bone / 80% meat*

Then they're dog will do well. Now yes granted the OP demonstrated they weren't recognizing how severely underweight their dog was. But they are learning. This may be their first dog. What better way to learn than NOW so they can help others and help the very dog suffering. This dog has already demonstrated kibble is not something he generally wants. He turns down the food. My dog had the same problem. Feeding a food with more grains or fillers is not going to do this dog well. 
Starvation comes from not only not eating enough, but also by lack of sufficient water. Some dogs just don't drink enough. Raw is going to supply this dog not only more moisture into his diet, but a good and healthy and natural product that the dog will be able to digest easily. 

There is lots of support on not only this forum but the entire internet.

If the OP has any questions about their dog and the diet, I am sure they will come back here (as long as you don't keep bashing them rudely) to ask more questions. There are a ton of people in this thread supporting the OP's decision and right there at their finger tips to help. 

The OP has demonstrated they want to learn and have taken an interest on dietary requirements of their dog. Thats more than I can say for over half of America with their overweight and underweight dogs. 

OP is already on the right track and I think with our support will get there.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Well we agree on somethings. 

Let me clarify something on carbs and grains. I am a staunch advocate of feeding mostly meat protein and fat. Ad nauseum, I have recommend a bunch of 30/20 or greater foods at price points everyone can afford. Some hard to get but most pretty easy.

Given that the foods total 100% crazy, there is not much room for grains and carbs other than just enough for balanced energy, digestion and health, 30% on average. The order of ingredients on the bag is irrelevant.

Another note on judging weight, animals tend to lose internal fat (the important kind) first, so once you get to the point where the ribs are beyond obvious, the dog is at great risk.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

This one is another good food line. Easy to find in the midwest especially.

National Dog Food - Milk Specialties

Some of the kibbles have over 90% of protein from meat and some are close to 600 ME calories per cup.

Hard to find East though.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

sable123 said:


> The order of ingredients on the bag is irrelevant.


No it is NOT irrelevant. From the FDA website in regards to dog and cat food labels:



> All ingredients are required to be listed in order of predominance by weight. The weights of ingredients are determined as they are added in the formulation, including their inherent water content. This latter fact is important when evaluating relative quantity claims, especially when ingredients of different moisture contents are compared.
> For example, one pet food may list "meat" as its first ingredient, and "corn" as the second ingredient. The manufacturer doesn't hesitate to point out that its competitor lists "corn" first ("meat meal" is second), suggesting the competitor's product has less animal-source protein than its own. However, meat is very high in moisture (approximately 75% water). On the other hand, water and fat are removed from meat meal, so it is only 10% moisture (what's left is mostly protein and minerals). If we could compare both products on a dry matter basis (mathematically "remove" the water from both ingredients), one could see that the second product had more animal-source protein from meat meal than the first product had from meat, even though the ingredient list suggests otherwise.



If you look at the ingredients for the Eukanuba 30/20 you mentioned, the first 5 are:




> *Ingredients*
> : Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal (Natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), Corn Meal, Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum,



Chicken, as YOU said, is mostly water so while it may be the first ingredient listed (the greatest weight) you need to remove the water and then it could drop way down the list (by ACTUAL weight).


Chicken By-Product Meal - at least this has the water already removed so it's weight is the actual weight. But it contains all the 'leftovers' from processing and the make-up can vary greatly from one processing plant to another.


The AAFCO defines it as:




> *Chicken By-Product Meal* - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.



The FAO states:




> This meal is a combination of all poultry by-products processed together in the same proportions as they occur in the processing plant. Composition can be quite variable for plant to plant and batch to batch, depending upon what is being included.



We know that chicken necks are a commodity that sell very well on their own so I can't imagine that there would be many that go in the mix. Chicken feet aren't as big a seller on their own but there is a market for them (I can get cases of chicken feet from my local purveyor) so you probably won't see alot of them in there either.


If they can make MORE money selling the necks and feet separately that's what they are going to do.


That leaves you with undeveloped eggs and intestines. There is NO market that I know of for either of these products. They are WASTE products.


I would make a large waiver that at LEAST 50% of chicken by-product meal is made up of those last two ingredients. But since there is no way to know - and even the processing pants don't have to say how MUCH of WHAT went into the meal - there's no way to tell.


Since the (watery) chicken got knocked down the ingredient list when we removed the water that means the bulk of the food is made up of the Corn Meal, Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum - all carbs.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> No it is NOT irrelevant. From the FDA website in regards to dog and cat food labels:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FANTASTIC POST:thumbup:

Thank you !


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> No it is NOT irrelevant. From the FDA website in regards to dog and cat food labels:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You don't know anything about dog food and you just proved it. This food is about 30% carbohydrate by weight and less than that by calories. Compared to say Innova and dozens of foods like it including many grain free foods which are over 50%.

Read this by a Canadian nutritionist on Pet Grade By-Product meal. Incidentally, you have no idea about the quality of "Chicken Meal" you just assume it is better because the name sounds better, right? I agree with you "by-product" does sound terrible. Just sounds terrible but they are just as good and much cheaper.

http://www.hilarywatson.com/chicken.pdf


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Sable....we used to feed National Performance exclusively.
It was created for the mushers......super dense food in pelleted & kibble form.
Smells strong from the fish content. High caloric value on top.
Stopped feeding it because "my distributor" could not provide me with the food several times...and the "increase" in cost just nailed the coffin.

I would recommend it as a food to maintain "hard keepers", and the pelleted food breaks down with almost no expansion.....I think this was one of the ideas when creating a food to specialize for "mushers". Little needed for maintaining energy and endurance.
*My friend used to be a rep for the company*.....she's retired now due to medical reasons.
FWIW


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Sable....we used to feed National Performance exclusively.
> It was created for the mushers......super dense food in pelleted & kibble form.
> Smells strong from the fish content. High caloric value on top.
> Stopped feeding it because "my distributor" could not provide me with the food several times...and the "increase" in cost just nailed the coffin.
> ...


National is a very good food. People that can get it should use it. Good stuff.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

sable123 said:


> This food is about 30% carbohydrate by weight


How do you figure that?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> How do you figure that?


Simple math, it has to add to 100% right. calorically it is below 30% about the same as Orijen.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I honestly saw them loading the truck that went for "by products" - at least that is what the people at the poultry plant where I used to by my thighs and frames told me........(frames are what is left when you make breast filets)

Anway- plastic bags, trash, you would not believe some of the stuff that went into the byproducts truck. -


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