# agression is comeing up :?



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

so when shilo was a puppy she was the weak puppy who was attacked and thrown to the floor or scared away, she is very dependant on dogs and loves them. so she was 'taken advantage of?' you may say, anyways, a couple dog park visits and this dog stated attacking her abd she totally attacked back!! my dad was trying to seperate it and didnt notice how visious it was, i have never seen this side of shilo! 

We also when to a dog park on lake wa. and this dog was barking and lunging at her and she did it right back (she was right under my feet, the other time too) but when she went a little ways away and the dog aproched her she got submissive, they both came close to me and she was very visious again! i think she is trying to protect me :/


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

She's not trying to protect you, she's trying to protect herself. 

I'd look into some reactive dog classes or the problems probably going to snowball and get worse and worse.

In the mean time, i'd avoid dog parks. Keep your dog around ONLY dogs that you know are stable and can trust. You always want positive experiences and it looks like she's not having many. It's your job to protect her, not vice versa. You need to protect her from bad situations where fights can break out.


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

why when she is away from me she is not agressive at all? why does she do it when im near? is it that she feels safe that i am there?


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shilorio said:


> why when she is away from me she is not agressive at all? why does she do it when im near? is it that she feels safe that i am there?


Does she always act aggressive towards other dogs or at least somewhat fearful when youre around?

What about when you're not around? You said she got in a fight at the dog park and your dad broke it up... were you there for that?


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

im always there, it just i might be like ten or twenty feet away, i am pretty sure she loves me and my dad equaly and she is agressive when she is almost right under our feet, but when she is a little distance away she isnt at all. she is onlt agressive when the other dog is first. other than that she is a shy angle.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shilorio said:


> im always there, it just i might be like ten or twenty feet away, i am pretty sure she loves me and my dad equaly and she is agressive when she is almost right under our feet, but when she is a little distance away she isnt at all. she is onlt agressive when the other dog is first. other than that she is a shy angle.


Do your best to keep her out of bad situation then. If she's only good with stable dogs, keep her around stable dogs.

Some dogs pick on the weak at dog parks, i've seen it happen plenty of times, so some dogs just arent meant for dog parks. That's ok though. There's still plenty of ways for dogs to interact outside of the park. Just make sure to do it around the right dogs.


----------



## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

I know this dog quite well and have seen this dog grow. She was picked on as a puppy no doubt, I saw it first hand. I think she is doing both, protecting herself and you. When the other agressive dog gets near you she feels that the other dog could go after you. I have seen this type of behavior 1st hand with Tony and it was very obvious to me. Female dogs and especially female GSD's(males also) have a very strong protective instinct. You or someone else in the family is her pack leader and as she gets older that instinct to protect her pack and leader well only get stronger, especially around aggressve dogs and people. 

But the poster who said not to take her to the dog parks is 100% wrong.


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi jess ) and i love dog parks! and so does she! i hope your right about her growing up ) we have seen her change alot! your right first it was on tony whitch surprised me! are you gonna go to marrymore again?


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> But the poster who said not to take to dog parks for awhile is 100% wrong.


How exactly am i 100% wrong? She said her dog goes to the dog park and gets picked on and fights break out. This is, in turn, making her a reactive and sometimes aggressive dog. The fact is, weak nerved dogs can easily cause fights between other dogs at the park. Not all dogs are made to go to the dog park and be around other dogs who are not stable.

You think that throwing a weak nerved and low confidence dog into a pack of dogs who are going to pick on her and give her negative experiences is better than bringing her around dogs who are stable that will provide her with a positive experience? Build up her confidence first and then maybe she'll be ready to be around a bunch of dogs you (the owner) or the dog doesnt know. 

How exactly is that wrong?


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

bringing her around nice dogs is also a great idea, i think shilo is so much better though. she isnt getting picked on much anymore. maybe cause she isnt a puppy. i think alot of grown dogs pick on puppies, but now that she is grown i think she is getting more sure of her self and as jess said maybe protective?


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shilorio said:


> bringing her around nice dogs is also a great idea, i think shilo is so much better though. she isnt getting picked on much anymore. maybe cause she isnt a puppy. i think alot of grown dogs pick on puppies, but now that she is grown i think she is getting more sure of her self and as jess said maybe protective?


I mean, i don't know your dog, so i don't know exactly how she is. It would be a lot easier to judge and give advice if I actually knew the dog. I'm just going by what you're telling me.

I'm a strong believer in building up confidence if needed. It sounded to me like you bring the dog to the park and fights break out between her and other dogs. If that's happening, than no, the park isn't right for your dog. Not because you have a bad dog, but because you have no control over the dogs that are brought to the park. People will bring just about any kind of dog to the dog park. Fights do break out because of this and can really hurt a dogs confidence and cause fear aggression issues which is VERY difficult to get over once developed.


----------



## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Here in WA state you are not to have aggressive dogs at dog parks and the wording in the law is aggressive. AS long as your dog is not the aggressve dog you have every right to use that park. In this state if your dog harms another dog or person you can and well be arrested and you can be sued by that party. The law in this state is quite clear. Tony was attacked by another dog outside of a dog park and I came to find out the guy was arested and I never even pressed charges.


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

i agree i just think that shilo has changed alot, she is a good dog around others i just think she is more catious. but when another dog starts something she doesnt take it anymore like she did when she was a pup


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Here in WA state you are not to have aggressive dogs at dog parks and the wording in the law is aggressive. AS long as your dog is not the aggressve dog you have every right to use that park. In this state if your dog harms another dog or person you can and well be arrested and you can be sued by that party. The law in this state is quite clear.


Maybe it is, but is there the dog park police standing outside the gate to the park to inspect if the dog is stable or not? 

Also, it's not always aggressive dogs that are the issue. Dogs pick on dogs just because they're weak. My friends rottweiler is the sweetest dog in the world, but for some reason, every time he brings this dog to the park, it gets attacked. Dogs have a sense for weak dogs and they don't have to be aggressive to do that.

I'm not saying this dog should never go to the dog park again. I'm saying, maybe it should go on hold for a while. Build the dogs confidence up with good experiences. Set up play dates with good stable dogs to provide positive experiences with other dogs. A dog confidence is very important and if it's constantly being picked on and getting in fights, it's not going to be very trustworth of other dogs and it's going to cause more and more fights.


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

yeah like jess said, people bring agressive dogs in all the time and they attack our dogs that do only want to have fun, and like lucy dog said if all were nice it would be much easier but stupid people bring there agressive dogs in and some poeple act like its no big deal, (like that dalmation, member jess?) but yeah you both have very good points! some dogs should not be alowed in dog parks! the one that scared shilo the most was when a german shepherd and mixed breed attacked her and she bolted all the way down magnason, but they were food agressive the owner made a bad choice and had treats!


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shilorio said:


> i agree i just think that shilo has changed alot, she is a good dog around others i just think she is more catious. but when another dog starts something she doesnt take it anymore like she did when she was a pup


How often does this happen? Once in a blue moon or a lot?


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

what if you dont know many nice dogs? i think the only person iknow who has a good dog that i know as a friend is jess, i dont know many people :/ with dogs that is, well my aunt just got a male boxer pointer mix that she just loves, but tony is her favorite


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

well when she was a pup it happend.. quite a bit but now, she has had a few stumble fights but not much. i think as a puppy, like you said, older dogs picked on her because she was weak


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shilorio said:


> what if you dont know many nice dogs? i think the only person iknow who has a good dog that i know as a friend is jess, i dont know many people :/ with dogs that is, well my aunt just got a male boxer pointer mix that she just loves, but tony is her favorite


Do you have any training centers near you? You could always give them a call and see if they have any classes for a dog like yours. There are always options out there.


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

im not sure but maybe, she is laying next to me right now she looks interested in the tv though! haha


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> How exactly am i 100% wrong? She said her dog goes to the dog park and gets picked on and fights break out. This is, in turn, making her a reactive and sometimes aggressive dog. The fact is, weak nerved dogs can easily cause fights between other dogs at the park. Not all dogs are made to go to the dog park and be around other dogs who are not stable.
> 
> You think that throwing a weak nerved and low confidence dog into a pack of dogs who are going to pick on her and give her negative experiences is better than bringing her around dogs who are stable that will provide her with a positive experience? Build up her confidence first and then maybe she'll be ready to be around a bunch of dogs you (the owner) or the dog doesnt know. How exactly is that wrong?


My thoughts on dog parks are that most of the time your dog will be fine in them. BUT the one time that is not fine can be a disaster. the main problem is that in most parks there is no control on the dogs and owners that come into them.

Esp. I would be very leery about bringing a dog of mine that I thought might not be able to handle the overly aggressive dogs that you will eventually run into in a dog park. There are a lot better, more controlable ways to get your puppy/dog socialized!


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

true, i personally am always catious of dogs and tend to read their body laguage fast (try!) and try my best to prevent it, and if there is a fight in the distant most dogs seem to gather around (run to see wats going on) i try and keep shi close


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

shilorio said:


> i am pretty sure she loves me and my dad equaly.


Dogs don't feel love, it's a common misconception. It may be protecting you and your dad but only because it sees you as the hierarchy of the pack. You give it food, water and a shelter, the stronger the pack the greater the chance of survival. It will protect you and your dad because it's in its own interest to do so. 

The same can be said with fighting other dogs. Your dog may think the other dog has come into the packs territory or too close to the hierarchy (you and your dad) and therefore survival instincts kick in and a fight breaks out. Normally dogs will use body language to tell the other dog to go away. The dogs may at first try and stare each other out, the fur on the back of the neck will stand up and a few warning barks will be given. If your dog is on the leash and you notice any of these things a quick tug on it forcing him to break eye contact may prevent a fight breaking out, but that is only a short term solution. You need to socialize the dog a lot more, he must realize that not all other dogs are a threat.

Don't get yourself into a devils circle, You have to be strong and dominant now the dog has shown aggression, if you start feeling frightened and worried when another dog approaches because you think a fight will break out your dog will pick up on these emotions which in turn will make him want to protect you more, and the circle goes on and on and on. Don't let it happen, nip it in the bud before it starts.


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

good advice, thank you


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

HMV said:


> Don't let it happen, nip it in the bud before it starts.


Any tips on how to go about doing this?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

HMV said:


> Dogs don't feel love, it's a common misconception. It may be protecting you and your dad but only because it sees you as the hierarchy of the pack. You give it food, water and a shelter, the stronger the pack the greater the chance of survival. It will protect you and your dad because it's in its own interest to do so....


It may not be love as we humans feel it (maybe) but it can be a LOT more than simple self preservation and/orpack presentation. How else to explain the little terrier who fought off a large alligator allnight to protect his elderly woman owner who had fallen
on the canalbank? Would have been easy for the terrier to simply get away itself.

Or any of the very many similar examples of a dog protecting the others that he/she "loves" - or seemingly "mourning" the death of a human?

Or even just looking at what many dogs put up with from their humans on a daily basis.

Very similar to what we humans refer to as love!


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

Devotion perhaps but not love, It is a fact that even the smallest terrier shares 99% of its genes with a wolf.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

HMV said:


> Devotion perhaps but not love, It is a fact that even the smallest terrier shares 99% of its genes with a wolf.


Really?! That I find hard to believe... but you may be right. I just find that very hard to believe. You have any proof to back up that statement?


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Exploring the wolves in dogs' clothing

It actually says there is only a 0.2% difference making it 99.8% in common.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

interesting......... And coyotes are only a 4% difference according to the article. I had no idea it was so close.

thanks for the link


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It still doesn't mean that they can't feel any love. 

Who are we to determine what they can and can't feel?

They can feel pain, right? They can feel happyness, the warm sun, cold weather, rain, hunger and thirst. So how comes that people think that they can't feel love?

If the family is a pack as whole, how comes a dog shows more "love" and loyalty to one person than the other and that person doesn't necessarily have to be the pack leader. 

I saw it plenty of times at home. We've had five dogs in the house, mom was ALWAYS the pack leader in the house. But Garfield sticked to my sister like glue and he loved her to death. 


Yes, I do believe that pets can love. Sure, there is a reason why they stick to us, it's mainly because we are their resource, but if they can feel anger, aggression, pain, thirst and hunger they can also feel love!


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

HMV said:


> Devotion perhaps but not love, .....


And who said that wolves cannot love? 

A question of semantics!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, there is a brain chemistry to love. Perhaps "others" have it too.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Your dog is now afraid of other dogs cause you've allowed her to be 'attacked'. And the reason it's at your feet is cause she's coming to you for protections, and when it doesn't come, her ONLY choice is to attack FROM FEAR.

It's our duty to set up our puppies to feel it's a wonderful happy world that we control and we are in charge of. If, instead, we do NOT step in and our puppies get seriously frightened a few times........we have 'taught' them that the world is a scary place full of scary things and it's better to attack first and ask questions later.

Dog parks are GREAT if we are responsible and make sure we only allow our dogs in them when there are other dogs with good socialization skills and appropriate behaviors.

Dog parks are disasters when we are NOT responsible and just take our puppies in without paying attention or being aware of how the other dogs are behaving. There are nasty, mean and bully dogs that can terrify other dogs. I don't have to expose my adult dogs to that, let alone a puppy that has zero skills or maturity to deal with that.


----------



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

i agree totally, and i have already told everyone that i am NOT takeing my next puppy to the park at all! untill he is a year. because of what happens to puppies. we first brang shilo at... hmmm 7 months! but we see puppies there that are only 8 weeks! they do not know what is going on at all! they are freaking out at everything, and i think it tramatizes them. personally. and also it is not always the owners fault! you can be the most responsible owner and your dog can get attacked it just happens. if you want to be 100% sure she wont get attacked, DONT GO. but im not going to stop going. she is fine now, this has only happend twice, she is a more confident dog in my sence, and the dog parks she has been attacked at we dont go there anymore. and about the love i belive dogs can feel love. who says they cant?


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> It still doesn't mean that they can't feel any love.
> 
> They can feel pain, right? They can feel happyness, the warm sun, cold weather, rain, hunger and thirst. So how comes that people think that they can't feel love?


After a little more research into the subject of love it would appear that the Jury is out on this one. Some professionals (Vets, animal psychologists etc) believe they are, whilst others believe they are not capable of love in the sense we know it. I therefore apologize for my first statement which may have been misleading.

Although I would love to think my dog could love me I really can't see how it fits into the requirement of the species. The logic to my thinking is this: We have already established that dogs are to the major part wolves. The whole point behind love is to reproduce, it is the natural order of life. We fall in love we reproduce, this is how the human species ensures its existence. Wolves, however, have a dominant leader (The Alpha) It is the fittest of all the wolves in the pack and has the right to mate with any female within the pack. If however as you suggest love is possible and a lower ranking male was to fall in love and with a female and reproduce it would not only result in more mouths to feed than the pack could cater for but would produce weaker puppies than that of the Alpha. The wild is all about survival of the fittest and love doesn't come into the equation. I may be wrong, like I said people with far more knowledge than myself are undecided.

As for pain, happiness, warmth, cold, rain, hunger and thirst. Apart from happiness all the others are survival instincts and not really under the category of love. Your body feels pain to know it's in danger. Warmth and cold to know if it should take shelter hunger and thirst to survive. Most bugs in the garden have these primitive instincts, they are essential to life just like breathing is.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

If that isn't love, I don't know what it is.


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

ok, I can see were going to have to agree to disagree on this 
Like I said nobody knows anyway, but one last point. 

If a dog is capable of loving it is also capable of hating, correct?

If a dog is capable of hating whats the point of socializing the dog, because just as in humans, if one dog hates another then all the socializing in the world wont change it.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

HMV said:


> ok, I can see were going to have to agree to disagree on this
> Like I said nobody knows anyway, but one last point.
> 
> If a dog is capable of loving it is also capable of hating, correct?
> ...


I don't think so. Like human beings, dogs can learn. If we hate somebody we have to teach ourselves self-control and you can teach a dog to control himself. Even if he hates another dog, you can train them not to go crazy on the leash. 

And yes, even dogs can like and dislike each other.


And as for the video. What else is it? That guy has been gone for a year, returned home and the dog immediately knew it was his owner and look what kind of welcome he gave him. 

HMV, these dogs aren't wolves anymore. They might still have traits from wolves but millions of years of living with humans have changed them a lot.


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> HMV, these dogs aren't wolves anymore. They might still have traits from wolves *but millions of years of living with humans have changed them a lot*.


Can you provided a link for that please. All the books I have read suggest it was around 15,000 years ago, hardly the first step on the road of evolution.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

HMV said:


> Devotion perhaps but not love, It is a fact that even the smallest terrier shares 99% of its genes with a wolf.


Would you consider devotion the same thing as loyalty? If something is devoted and loyal, its not that far of a streach to sprinkle in a bit of love as well. Or are we all talking about the same feeling? Hmmm, something to ponder on.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

When it comes to living with, relating to and communication between animal and human... dogs are very different from wolves. Change does not have to take eons.

Even though we are genetically most like chimps, we share closeness in the emotional part of the brain more so with dogs than primates.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Samba said:


> When it comes to living with, relating to and communication between animal and human... dogs are very different from wolves. Change does not have to take eons.
> 
> Even though we are genetically most like chimps, we share closeness in the emotional part of the brain more so with dogs than primates.



True, has anyone seen the project with the foxes? They bred foxes to find out what happens to them when they are in contact with humans. What happened is that after the third or fourth generation the foxes showed the same signs that dogs do. Than they split them in two different groups. One that was more affectionate to humans and the other one was the aggressive group.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> True, has anyone seen the project with the foxes? They bred foxes to find out what happens to them when they are in contact with humans. What happened is that after the third or fourth generation the foxes showed the same signs that dogs do. Than they split them in two different groups. One that was more affectionate to humans and the other one was the aggressive group.


 




 




 
Clever as a Fox | gmilburn.ca

New Breed of Fox as Tame as a Pussycat - NYTimes.com

Fox Domestication


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Okay, I was wrong, it took them a little longer than 3 or 4 Generations. But it didn't take them hundreds of years to domesticate the fox. It was 40 years and 35 somewhat generations.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Though we do share brain chemicals involved in emotion with other species, I don't know that we can surmise that they experience these in the same ways that we do.


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

Trying to persuade people on a dog loving forum that dogs can't love back wasn't the best idea I've ever had  even if there is no scientific evidence to support either side of the discussion. Like I said I would love to think my dog is capable of loving and I'm now willing to keep an open mind on the subject.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

HMV said:


> Trying to persuade people on a dog loving forum that dogs can't love back wasn't the best idea I've ever had  even if there is no scientific evidence to support either side of the discussion. Like I said I would love to think my dog is capable of loving and I'm now willing to keep an open mind on the subject.



HMV, sometimes things don't have to be scientifically proven to show you that one is able to love. 

I know, I know, I know, as a German I should NOT say that. We are way to rational for that but sometimes, just sometimes things don't have to be scientifically proven to prove that a dog can love. 

Dogs are affectionate, possessive, devoted, loving creatures and by proving EVERYTHING scientifically it takes a whole lot of magic away. 

I know what you are saying. We are their resource and that is why they _love _us. However, if I give my dog into a foster home because I have to go away for a year and I come back after a year and the dog goes crazy once he sees me even though he had a loving home and a new resource while I was gone, ... don't you think it's prove enough that a dog has a very good memory, can grieve and actually love?

What about that famous Akita that went to the train-station every single day to pick up his master and went there every day after his master died?

To me there is no need for a scientific prove that dogs can love. If a dog remembers you after one year of seperation and goes nuts above and beyond because he is so happy to see you even though he has a new resource that's enough prove for me that dogs can and do love.


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

Ha ha ha your not going to get me to admit I'm wrong, I'm far too Germanized for that lol. I'll keep an open mind. That's as much as your going to get out of me.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

HMV said:


> Ha ha ha your not going to get me to admit I'm wrong, I'm far too Germanized for that lol. I'll keep an open mind. That's as much as your going to get out of me.


SO if you are Germanized does that mean I am Americanized because I feel the way I feel?


----------



## brucebourdon (Jun 2, 2010)

I'd just like to comment that, like most issues of what separates us from other species, it's not a matter of having it or not having it - but a matter of degree. 

Some say that dogs do not think, that they do not have a conscious mind, that their behavior is purely instinctual. 

It used to be popular to say that we are the only species that uses tools, but now we know that's not true.

I believe that dogs do think, that they do have a conscious mind. It certainly is not as well developed as our own as adults, but it is well beyond that of a human infant.

Love seems to me to be much less a rational thing than conscious thought, so to me it is even more likely that they experience a form of it. 

They may lack the ability to express it or consider it any more deeply than we may consider our fondness for a hot-fudge sundae (mmm), but I am certain they feel it.

Bruce.


----------

