# German Shepherd and Wolf



## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

I visited a diorama in Springdale, UT and I found the size of the wolves interesting.
I took some pictures and I thought I'd share them here.
This is the wolf scene.








This is one of the wolves paws in my hand.








And this is my big boy (120lb) Kazar's paw in my hand for comparison.


----------



## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

The wolf paw picture is closer than the other picture, but I'm assuming the wolf paw is much bigger?


----------



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

You also have to keep in mind the size of the paw has nothing to do with the size of the dog. For example, basset hounds have huge paws vs greyhounds which have tiny paws. Also consider that many wild animals have large feet to get around better, splay their paws on things such as snow for better traction, etc.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

BGSD said:


> The wolf paw picture is closer than the other picture, but I'm assuming the wolf paw is much bigger?


the wolf paw is much, much bigger. It's really hard to grasp the size of the wolf unless you've actually been up close and personal with one. They dwarf a GSD (literally).


----------



## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

RazinKain said:


> the wolf paw is much, much bigger. It's really hard to grasp the size of the wolf unless you've actually been up close and personal with one. They dwarf a GSD (literally).


Makes sense, they are vicious killing machines. I've actually never seen a wolf in person, but I'd like to see one at some point (under controlled conditions of course ) just to get a sense of how different dogs and wolves are.


----------



## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

Woops, I thought it would be more apparent. 
Yes, it was about 1 1/2 times as big at least.


----------



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

BGSD said:


> Makes sense, they are vicious killing machines. I've actually never seen a wolf in person, but I'd like to see one at some point (under controlled conditions of course ) just to get a sense of how different dogs and wolves are.


They aren't vicious killing machines. They are wild animals and catch and eat prey. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Rerun said:


> They aren't vicious killing machines. They are wild animals and catch and eat prey. Nothing more, nothing less.


Exactly. The only vicious killing machines are men (women) because they don't have to kill to survive.


----------



## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Rerun said:


> They aren't vicious killing machines. They are wild animals and catch and eat prey. Nothing more, nothing less.


Well that's something domesticated dogs don't really do or have to do, thus the physical difference. Don't wolves also have bigger brains due to their need to hunt effectively?


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Rerun said:


> They aren't vicious killing machines. They are wild animals and catch and eat prey. Nothing more, nothing less.


They are too vicious, not evil but vicious they are. And, there are few more effective killing machines than a pack of wolves. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

A bunch of my family live in way northern Idaho - on the property they have, a couple times, seen wolves. They've described them as pretty big. 

Either way - I think they're magnificent and beautiful animals (but not something that should be a pet).


----------



## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

RazinKain said:


> They are too vicious, not evil but vicious they are. And, there are few more effective killing machines than a pack of wolves. Nothing more, nothing less.


Well let's just say I wouldn't want to cross paths with one. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> They are too vicious, not evil but vicious they are. And, there are few more effective killing machines than a pack of wolves. Nothing more, nothing less.


Killer Whales are also very effective at hunting together in a pack 

Not saying they're better...IDK if they are or not. I wouldn't doubt they're at least as good as wolves though. 

Wikipedia
Killer whale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Since some killer whales prey on large whales and sharks, they are considered to be apex predators. They are sometimes called the wolves of the sea, because they hunt in groups like wolf packs.[73]"


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

GSD_Xander said:


> Killer Whales are also very effective at hunting together in a pack
> 
> Not saying they're better...IDK if they are or not. I wouldn't doubt they're at least as good as wolves though.
> 
> ...


I wasn't saying that a pack of wolves are the 'ultimate' killers, but in response to an earlier post, they are definately a 'vicious killer'. It's interesting how whales will work in the same fashion.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

RazinKain said:


> They are too vicious, not evil but vicious they are. And, there are few more effective killing machines than a pack of wolves. .


A pack of humans for sure. We're the only animals vicious enough to wipe out whole species-- even whole other races of humans-- for the heck of it.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

how did this go from the 'size of a species' to 'genocide'?


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> how did this go from the 'size of a species' to 'genocide'?


What are you, new?  :rofl:

Those are really neat pics! I has no idea they were that big up close!


----------



## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

I saw the pictures posted and I thought "how interesting". So I ran out and took a couple of pictures. I really thought there would be more of a difference....










Calee...










Polar Bear.... He is about 20 lbs heavier, and just a little larger. I really thought his paws would be much larger... but the are really about the same.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

I've seen timber wolves really up close 'hands on', and they are SO MUCH bigger (in every way) than a GSD that it's just amazing. Timber Wolves are to GSD's, as Hawks are to Hummingbirds. There just is no comparison.


----------



## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

I was completely surprised at how large the wolves were that I worked with. When your up close and personal with them it's pretty crazy!


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

"Vicious" implies "cruelty" most of the time. I guess it just depends on how one wants to use the term. IMO wolves are not vicious, they are natural, natural is only "vicious" by human terms.

Awesome pics


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> "Vicious" implies "cruelty" most of the time. I guess it just depends on how one wants to use the term. IMO wolves are not vicious, they are natural, natural is only "vicious" by human terms.
> 
> Awesome pics


I don't understand this. In nature, there is no cruelty. There is just nature. I am describing the 'wolf' in my 'human' understanding. As I stated before, I'm not implying that vicious is evil, it is just vicious.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

*vi·cious*

_adj_ \ˈvi-shəs\
*Definition of VICIOUS*

1
*:* having the nature or quality of vice or immorality *:* depraved — (see 1vice) 

2
*:* defective, faulty; _also_ *:* invalid 

3
*:* impure, noxious 

4
_a_ *:* dangerously aggressive *:* savage <a _vicious_ dog> _b_ *:* marked by violence or ferocity *:* fierce <a _vicious_ fight> 

5
*:* malicious, spiteful <_vicious_ gossip> 

6
*:* worsened by internal causes that reciprocally augment each other <a _vicious_ wage-price spiral>


None of these definitions fit wolves. They kill to survive, not for sport. Humans are the ONLY living creature that kills other living creatures for pure pleasure and sport and then vehemently defend that action. Every other carnivore on this planet will only kill when it is hungry and only take what it needs to sustain itself and its young. Humans will not only kill for sport we also like to hang the carcasses of the dead animals on our living room walls as a testimony to our manhood. If anything WE are the vicious killers. That definition fits humans much better than it does 4 legged creature on the planet (or even legless creatures swimming in the ocean)


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> 4
> _a_ *:* dangerously aggressive *:* savage <a _vicious_ dog> _b_ *:* marked by violence or ferocity *:* fierce <a _vicious_ fight>


I'm pretty sure this is how the average woodland creature would describe a wolf if you asked


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> the wolf paw is much, much bigger. It's really hard to grasp the size of the wolf unless you've actually been up close and personal with one. They dwarf a GSD (literally).


They should - big wolves are MUCH bigger than a GSD who meets the standard:

_*"Adult wolves are 105–160 cm (41–63 in) in length and 80–85 cm (32–34 in) in shoulder height. The tail is ⅔ the length of the head and body, measuring 29–50 cm (11–20 in) in length. The ears are 90–110 millimeters (3.5–4.3 in) in height, and the hind feet are 220–250 mm. Wolf weight varies geographically; on average, European wolves may weigh 38.5 kilograms (85 lb), North American wolves 36 kilograms (79 lb), Indian and Arabian wolves 25 kilograms (55 lb) and North African wolves 13 kilograms (29 lb)."*_


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm pretty sure this is how the average woodland creature would describe a wolf if you asked


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm pretty sure this is how the average woodland creature would describe a wolf if you asked


Kinda what I was thinkin too, not to mention domesticated livestock as well.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm pretty sure this is how the average woodland creature would describe a wolf if you asked



Wolves, coyotes, dogs, cats, man, cars...the list is endless as to what Thumper and Bambi would consider vicious. And rightly so as they are at the bottom of the food chain. As for livestock, I'm sure they would answer the same way as well.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

BGSD said:


> Well that's something domesticated dogs don't really do or have to do, thus the physical difference. Don't wolves also have bigger brains due to their need to hunt effectively?


Domestication reduces brain size, but no one knows why


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i LOVED when i got to be up close and personal with a wolf. The sheer size and power was amazing. They're such beautiful animals. Feet were enormous! Timber wolves makes GSDs look like ankle biters.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's a video I shot in Alaska - the first two minutes or so are a wolf at the Haines wildlife park:






You can see how big he is in relation to a man, and Mario also talks about how much he weighs.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Curious, I decided to measure my GSD's foot and compare it with the most _vicious_ hunter I know of...


----------



## mriedel (Apr 18, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here's a video I shot in Alaska - the first two minutes or so are a wolf at the Haines wildlife park:
> 
> YouTube - ‪Kroschel Wildlife Center Shore Excursion Haines, Alaska‬‏
> 
> You can see how big he is in relation to a man, and Mario also talks about how much he weighs.


 wow he is HUGE! and those eyes are so intense haha I think if my GSD had eyes like those i would be afraid of her!


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Curious, I decided to measure my GSD's foot and compare it with the most _vicious_ hunter I know of...


 

see vicious. i'm scared out of my mind now. thanks. thanks alot!


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> see vicious. i'm scared out of my mind now. thanks. thanks alot!


I was really meaning 'Man'. Not my hubby. He's pretty much a marsh mellow. At least he is when it comes to the lessor species.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

RazinKain said:


> how did this go from the 'size of a species' to 'genocide'?


I'm drinking rum, that's how.
:toasting: 

Look for more amusing posts shortly.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Those paws are huge!

Wolves are not vicious, they are carnivores. They hunt to survive in the wild. Anyone who says they are mindless killing machines obviously have never met a wolf or know much about them. They are beautiful animals. Humans are a species that kill for the thrill of it where as wolves and other carnivores hunt to survive.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Wolves are not vicious, they are carnivores. They hunt to survive in the wild. Anyone who says they are mindless killing machines obviously have never met a wolf or know much about them. They are beautiful animals. Humans are a species that kill for the thrill of it where as wolves and other carnivores hunt to survive.



Ding!Ding!Ding!


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Curious, I decided to measure my GSD's foot and compare it with the most _vicious_ hunter I know of...


You may not know me per se, but _*I*_ am the most vicious Hunter


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> Ding!Ding!Ding!


You know what is vicious? Fire ants... those bastards bite for sport I swear it!

Also, killer whales kill for fun


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Those paws are huge!
> 
> Wolves are not vicious, they are carnivores. They hunt to survive in the wild. Anyone who says they are* mindless killing machines *obviously have never met a wolf or know much about them. They are beautiful animals. Humans are a species that kill for the thrill of it where as wolves and other carnivores hunt to survive.


who said, anywhere in this thread, that wolves are _mindless_ killing machines? I never read that nor was it ever implied. They are very mindful, and very vicious.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

BGSD said:


> Makes sense, they are *vicious killing machines*. I've actually never seen a wolf in person, but I'd like to see one at some point (under controlled conditions of course ) just to get a sense of how different dogs and wolves are.


Here is where it was written.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

hunterisgreat said:


> You may not know me per se, but _*I*_ am the most vicious Hunter


He didn't want to get anywhere _near_ your feet.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> who said, anywhere in this thread, that wolves are _mindless_ killing machines? I never read that nor was it ever implied. They are very mindful, and very vicious.


Have you met a wolf? Have you interacted with one in person(I am talking about having gone to a wolf park or zoo and got up close with one.) They are great hunters when necessary such as to hunt. But no they are not vicious to humans, but are when hunting, because they need to be when hunting. I know people who work with wolves and have say they are not vicious. But they are smart and clever, but do not hurt them.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> Domestication reduces brain size, but no one knows why


Wonder if it also does for humans?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

codmaster said:


> Wonder if it also does for humans?


Well, if by "domestication" you mean marriage. . .


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

RazinKain said:


> I don't understand this. In nature, there is no cruelty. There is just nature. I am describing the 'wolf' in my 'human' understanding. As I stated before, I'm not implying that vicious is evil, it is just vicious.



Ok, now this I dont understand, You say you dont understand, however you go on to agree what you are describing the "wolf" in "human" terms..

The human term "vicious" is, IMO an incorrect term for anything regarding nature. Nature is not vicious, wolves are nature, there go they are not vicious...only humans would equate something that is not inherently vicious as vicious, IMO


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Have you met a wolf? Have you interacted with one in person(I am talking about having gone to a wolf park or zoo and got up close with one.) They are great hunters when necessary such as to hunt. But no they are not vicious to humans, but are when hunting, because they need to be when hunting. I know people who work with wolves and have say they are not vicious. But they are smart and clever, but do not hurt them.


They are actually pretty skittish. If you see one in the wild you are extremely lucky. There is a red wolf breeding and release program here, and for the 100's of times I've been to the island they were breeding and living on, I never saw one. The island is only ~5000 acres


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Well, if by "domestication" you mean marriage. . .


Zing!


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> They are actually pretty skittish. If you see one in the wild you are extremely lucky. There is a red wolf breeding and release program here, and for the 100's of times I've been to the island they were breeding and living on, I never saw one. The island is only ~5000 acres


Yep and skittish, the ones at wolf sanctuaries are skittish when they first meet you, but most have had human interaction and are very nice.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Wonder if it also does for humans?


If I had to guess, I would say no. We are highly dependent on our brain for survival, whereas domesticated animals become dependent on _us_. 

Brain size does not hold much strong correlation to intelligence though.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Here is where it was written.


where? you said 'mindless'. I don't see mindless in the description. They are anything but.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> Ok, now this I dont understand, You say you dont understand, however you go on to agree what you are describing the "wolf" in "human" terms..
> 
> The human term "vicious" is, IMO an incorrect term for anything regarding nature. Nature is not vicious, wolves are nature, there go they are not vicious...only humans would equate something that is not inherently vicious as vicious, IMO


now you're just disecting the term. In my understanding, vicious means fierce, violent, unremorseful, and determined to kill you in the most expedient manner possible in order to devour you. Does this, in any way to you, share anything in common with the term 'vicious'?


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> where? you said 'mindless'. I don't see mindless in the description. They are anything but.


I quoted it where it was written. Did you read the quoted I quoted? Plus it is on the first page of this thread.



BGSD said:


> Makes sense, they are vicious killing machines. I've actually never seen a wolf in person, but I'd like to see one at some point (under controlled conditions of course ) just to get a sense of how different dogs and wolves are.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Have you met a wolf? Have you interacted with one in person(I am talking about having gone to a wolf park or zoo and got up close with one.) They are great hunters when necessary such as to hunt. But no they are not vicious to humans, but are when hunting, because they need to be when hunting. I know people who work with wolves and have say they are not vicious. But they are smart and clever, but do not hurt them.


Yes I have, several different ones, and I have interacted with each of them. No zoo, a friend's breeding pens. They are great hunters, and in argument, can be very visious towards humans. I've seen it. And I think they are the most prey driven species in North America.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I quoted it where it was written. Did you read the quoted I quoted? Plus it is on the first page of this thread.


again, I never read the word 'mindless' anywhere in the description. where is it?


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> Yes I have, several different ones, and I have interacted with each of them. No zoo, a friend's breeding pens. They are great hunters, and in argument, can be very visious towards humans. I've seen it. And I think they are the most prey driven species in North America.


Your friends breeding pen? No offense but I highly doubt your friend is breeding actual wolves. If threatened yes, but otherwise they are skittish and would run away from humans.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> again, I never read the word 'mindless' anywhere in the description. where is it?


Its the same thing. They aren't killing machines, they are hunters and carnivores. They hunt for food so they can survive.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Your friends breeding pen? No offense but I highly doubt your friend is breeding actual wolves. If threatened yes, but otherwise they are skittish and would run away from humans.


he lived in NC, just outside Jacksonville, and you can doubt it all you want.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Those paws are huge!
> 
> Wolves are not vicious, they are carnivores. They hunt to survive in the wild. Anyone who says they are mindless killing machines obviously have never met a wolf or know much about them. They are beautiful animals. Humans are a species that kill for the thrill of it where as wolves and other carnivores hunt to survive.


*i second the beautiful animals*




DharmasMom said:


> Ding!Ding!Ding!


*i 2nd, 3rd AND 4th this....*



hunterisgreat said:


> You know what is vicious? Fire ants... those bastards bite for sport I swear it!
> 
> Also, killer whales kill for fun


*and sadly i also agree with the killer whales kill for fun. They use killing for fun as a hunting game for youngsters to learn to hunt instead of simply teaching them, like other animals do, by watching and doing WHILE hunting for actual food. *


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Well, if by "domestication" you mean marriage. . .


 
i know my brain power reduced some when i signed that marriage license! I love my husband but sometimes i feel REALLY dumb lol.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Its the same thing. They aren't killing machines, they are hunters and carnivores. They hunt for food so they can survive.


it's not the same thing. they _are_ killing machines that have been refined over the hundreds of centuries they've existed. yes they are hunters and carnivores and they also hunt to survive. it is the method in which they kill and eat their prey that makes them vicious. they do not always kill their prey before eating them alive. and when they're standing over their prey, with blood soaked fur, snarling and biting at their pack mates to stay away...........that is vicious.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> he lived in NC, just outside Jacksonville, and you can doubt it all you want.


 
lived as in past tense? Where outside jacksonville? Seriously, if there was ANYONE breeding wolves out here i would have found out about it in the almost 4 years we've been here. hubert? Richlands? Maysville? Swansburo?


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> it's not the same thing. they _are_ killing machines that have been refined over the hundreds of centuries they've existed. yes they are hunters and carnivores and they also hunt to survive. it is the method in which they kill and eat their prey that makes them vicious. they do not always kill their prey before eating them alive. and when they're standing over their prey, with blood soaked fur, snarling and biting at their pack mates to stay away...........that is vicious.


The way the person descirbed them their post put as if they were mindless killing vicious machines. And I believe when someone uses the term "killing machine" they mean the thing they are describing kills no matter what, but wolves don't. They kill for food in order to survive. Alphas eat first,or claim what part of the kill they want.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> lived as in past tense? Where outside jacksonville? Seriously, if there was ANYONE breeding wolves out here i would have found out about it in the almost 4 years we've been here. hubert? Richlands? Maysville? Swansburo?


can't remember the exact location but it was somewhere between Sneads Ferry and the airport.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> it's not the same thing. they _are_ killing machines that have been refined over the hundreds of centuries they've existed. yes they are hunters and carnivores and they also hunt to survive. it is the method in which they kill and eat their prey that makes them vicious. they do not always kill their prey before eating them alive. and when they're standing over their prey, with blood soaked fur, snarling and biting at their pack mates to stay away...........that is vicious.


 
i wouldnt consider that vicious. I would consider that pack order, similar to lions. They have a family structure but they also have a simple pecking order which is to be followed. Wolves seek out the weakest prey ie the sick or wounded or old. They take the diseased animals, usually leaving the healthy animals to continue breeding to continue the cycle. If there is only so much to go around, you'd be snappy too. I know i get cranky if i dont get my fill and someone muscles in on my plate without permission they're likely to get snapped at. Animals are simple. They snap and growl when they're protecting or nervous or scared whereas people go and complicate things. and if you had just used a good deal of energy to hunt and kill something and didnt have time for a bath because you'd miss dinner and nothing would be left... yeah you'd be soaked in blood too!!!


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> *i second the beautiful animals*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They also kill beyond teaching young. Just for sport. There is a well documented and filmed case where a pod killed a whale calf off CA and then just left it as they were not hungry. Fought the thing and its mother for hours until they drowned it... then left as soon as it was dead


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> can't remember the exact location but it was somewhere between Sneads Ferry and the airport.


 
the only place close enough with a permit for animals like that is the "ghetto" zoo and they have foxes and porcupines. Thats it. Does he still do it? I always always look up wolf rescues and places like that when we go anywhere and i've not even found a news article on anyone out here breeding wolves. Would be hard to keep that kind of thing a secret... especially with how freaking paranoid people are out her. I know the base bought some addition acreage shortly before we got stationed out here for training.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> i wouldnt consider that vicious. I would consider that pack order, similar to lions. They have a family structure but they also have a simple pecking order which is to be followed. Wolves seek out the weakest prey ie the sick or wounded or old. They take the diseased animals, usually leaving the healthy animals to continue breeding to continue the cycle. If there is only so much to go around, you'd be snappy too. I know i get cranky if i dont get my fill and someone muscles in on my plate without permission they're likely to get snapped at. Animals are simple. They snap and growl when they're protecting or nervous or scared whereas people go and complicate things. and if you had just used a good deal of energy to hunt and kill something and didnt have time for a bath because you'd miss dinner and nothing would be left... yeah you'd be soaked in blood too!!!


Yes exactly. I play this wolf game where you basically are a wolf and hunting a healthy caribou is hard! You have to look for one that has the lowest health.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> They also kill beyond teaching young. Just for sport. There is a well documented and filmed case where a pod killed a whale calf off CA and then just left it as they were not hungry. Fought the thing and its mother for hours until they drowned it... then left as soon as it was dead


 
i think i heard about that. Didnt that happen recently, like the last 2 or 3 years? I know there is a video out that was taken on an alaskan cruise where a pod was "waving" a seal off an ice float for the fun of it, tossing the seal in the air.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> i wouldnt consider that vicious. I would consider that pack order, similar to lions. They have a family structure but they also have a simple pecking order which is to be followed. Wolves seek out the weakest prey ie the sick or wounded or old. They take the diseased animals, usually leaving the healthy animals to continue breeding to continue the cycle. If there is only so much to go around, you'd be snappy too. I know i get cranky if i dont get my fill and someone muscles in on my plate without permission they're likely to get snapped at. Animals are simple. They snap and growl when they're protecting or nervous or scared whereas people go and complicate things. and if you had just used a good deal of energy to hunt and kill something and didnt have time for a bath because you'd miss dinner and nothing would be left... yeah you'd be soaked in blood too!!!


lions are vicious too. I watched a man (on video) get eaten alive by lions. they didn't even kill him first, just started eating until he was dead. In my book, this reads as vicious.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> lions are vicious too. I watched a man (on video) get eaten alive by lions. they didn't even kill him first, just started eating until he was dead. In my book, this reads as vicious.


 
i dont disagree with you on lions being a nasty piece of work but honestly, i consider that nature. It makes it easier if they're dead before digging in for dinner and it makes sense to make sure your prey is dead before chowing down if there are only a few of you to control the situation after you've expended a good amount of energy both mental and physical, then yeah i'd want it dead as dead could be but if its a decent sized pack or pride, the prey animal is already having a heart attack and KNOWS its going out and its not alive very much longer anyway in most cases... least nothing gets wasted. Nature is sometimes dirty and mean but at least its honest! I guess your definition of vicious and mine are different.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Hunting like wolves and lions do is not easy, plus its more of the lionesses job to hunt.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Hunting like wolves and lions do is not easy, plus its more of the lionesses job to hunt.


 
cuz the males are lazy and meant to look pretty! lol.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

*Synonyms of vicious:*

*Synonyms:* acute, almighty, blistering, deep, dreadful, excruciating, explosive, exquisite, fearful, fearsome, ferocious, fierce, frightful, furious, ghastly, hard, heavy, heavy-duty, hellacious, intensive, keen, profound, terrible, vehement, intense, violent


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Wolves are not "vicious". No more so than lions, tigers, polar bears or crocodiles. You are attributing human thoughts and emotions to animals. They kill to survive not sport. They just happen to be good at it and can do it efficiently and with skill. This makes them seem, to humans, vicious. 

As for the orca, I was not aware they killed for sport, that is interesting. I wonder why it is they do that and how their brains evolved so that they have learned and practice that behavior.

But even so for humans to call any other animal "vicious" for the way or reason in which it kills, is extraordinarily hypocritical. Humans plan trips, we enter a forest, plain, or jungle, we plant traps and lay in wait or we track, we then shoot our prey from a distance with a high power rifle. In the cases of controlled big game hunters will enter a limited range "farm" and run down a drugged, declawed big cat such as a tiger, lion or leopard. Most of this is done for bragging rights. Sure if a hunter is taking a dear he or his family may consume the dear and use it to sustain the family but no one eats tiger- that is done for sheer bragging rights and sport alone. 

Humans take viciousness to a whole new level and we have no right to level that charge at a mere animal that hunts and kills its prey to survive and ensure the survival of its young ones.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> Wolves are not "vicious". No more so than lions, tigers, polar bears or crocodiles. You are attributing human thoughts and emotions to animals. They kill to survive not sport. They just happen to be good at it and can do it efficiently and with skill. This makes them seem, to humans, vicious.
> 
> As for the orca, I was not aware they killed for sport, that is interesting. I wonder why it is they do that and how their brains evolved so that they have learned and practice that behavior.
> 
> ...


 
well said. 

side note: the orca who killed his trainer last year, they think he killed her for sport. they dont think he was simply playing after they dug deeper into what happened. And he's got a history of killing someone else before. Orcas are the ONLY animal (besides humans) who kill for fun. Its why they're known as killer whales. My biology teacher in high school was really big into orcas.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> Wolves are not "vicious". No more so than lions, tigers, polar bears or crocodiles. You are attributing human thoughts and emotions to animals. They kill to survive not sport. They just happen to be good at it and can do it efficiently and with skill. This makes them seem, to humans, vicious.
> 
> As for the orca, I was not aware they killed for sport, that is interesting. I wonder why it is they do that and how their brains evolved so that they have learned and practice that behavior.
> 
> ...


I would hardly classify the typical deer hunting trip as a 'vicious' act. The deer (in most cases) are put down humanely with one well placed shot, not having their entrails ripped and eaten from their still living bodies. I'm not saying that people can't be vicious, we surely can, but wolves are definately vicious animals in their own right.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> Wolves are not "vicious". No more so than lions, tigers, polar bears or crocodiles. You are attributing human thoughts and emotions to animals. They kill to survive not sport. They just happen to be good at it and can do it efficiently and with skill. This makes them seem, to humans, vicious.
> 
> As for the orca, I was not aware they killed for sport, that is interesting. I wonder why it is they do that and how their brains evolved so that they have learned and practice that behavior.
> 
> ...


Very well said. I wouldn't call it vicious, its called nature. Thats how wolves get their food and eat it. Its perfectly normal for them to do that in the wild, as well many other carnivores in the wild.

I saw in a TV show(mind you it was a TV show, so I am not sure if people actually do this.) but the dude was smuggling in exotic animals for people to keep as pets, and he had a tiger, which he ended up eating.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> I would hardly classify the typical deer hunting trip as a 'vicious' act. The deer (in most cases) are put down humanely with one well placed shot, not having their entrails ripped and eaten from their still living bodies. I'm not saying that people can't be vicious, we surely can, but wolves are definately vicious animals in their own right.


 
wolves dont see that as vicious though. We do because it disturbs us mentally. Things like that are what make the Saw movies so stinking popular. Wolves see it as survival. We're wired to be disturbed and disgusted by things like that. Animals are not. Animals are simply eat to live, not live to eat. If their prey is still technically alive when they start to eat, oops, minor mistake. circle of life is sometimes pretty brutal. we feel remorse when we do something that causes harm. Animals dont which makes them efficient. We go after something and its not dead yet, we would kill it simply because we couldnt mentally allow it to continue to suffer or in some cases, we take it to a vet. We have grocery stores.... they have herds... if it was the other way around and i was hungry, yeah.... that rabbit may very well go on the spit still semi alive. survival is survival.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Very well said. I wouldn't call it vicious, its called nature.
> 
> I saw in a TV show(mind you it was a TV show, so I am not sure if people actually do this.) but the dude was smuggling in exotic animals for people to keep as pets, and he had a tiger, which he ended up eating.


you probably wouldn't call it 'vicious' until it were happening to you, then it would be 100% unadulturated viciousness, even mindless viciousness.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> wolves dont see that as vicious though. We do because it disturbs us mentally. Things like that are what make the Saw movies so stinking popular. Wolves see it as survival. We're wired to be disturbed and disgusted by things like that. Animals are not. Animals are simply eat to live, not live to eat. If their prey is still technically alive when they start to eat, oops, minor mistake. circle of life is sometimes pretty brutal.


Exactly.I like watching those shows such as Planet Earth and such that depict that sort of thing. I like seeing how nature works.

Criminal Minds has pretty crazy people if you ask me. One of the original stars of the show quit because the show was too gruesome.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> you probably wouldn't call it 'vicious' until it were happening to you, then it would be 100% unadulturated viciousness, even mindless viciousness.


And my chances of being attacked by a wolf are pretty low to none as they would more than likely run away and I wouldn't go near a pack of wolves that are hunting or eating. I don't mess with nature, they don't mess with me.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Let's not forget humans are the only species that routinely kill their OWN species for no other reason than pleasure.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> And my chances of being attacked by a wolf are pretty low to none as they would more than likely run away and I wouldn't go near a pack of wolves that are hunting or eating. I don't mess with nature, they don't mess with me.


 
i dont mess with nature but i cant seem to keep it away from me... stupid bugs!!!!


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> Let's not forget humans are the only species that routinely kill their OWN species for no other reason than pleasure.


True, and its sad.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> Let's not forget humans are the only species that routinely kill their OWN species for no other reason than pleasure.


 
yup.... animals dont tend to look at one another and go "Hey! wouldnt it be fun to kill them!?! Yup.... thats what i'll do tomorrow!" or have a bad day at the office and follow someone home who cut them off on the road and kill them. People are vicious.

Zombie apocalypse.... people are gonna be tripping each other to save themselves. animals.... dont do that lol.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> i dont mess with nature but i cant seem to keep it away from me... stupid bugs!!!!


Or perverted spiders!


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Or perverted spiders!


 
exactly!


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> Let's not forget humans are the only species that routinely kill their OWN species for no other reason than pleasure.


rabbits do it. and male lions will kill the offspring of any other male lion other than itself. and ofcourse, humans as you stated.

well, the Ambien is starting to kick in, so i'm done for the night. you all have sweet dreams ( of vicious zombies killing wolves for fun ).


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> rabbits do it. and male lions will kill the offspring of any other male lion other than itself. and ofcourse, humans as you stated.
> 
> well, the Ambien is starting to kick in, so i'm done for the night. you all have sweet dreams ( of vicious zombies killing wolves for fun ).


No they don't do it like humans. Some humans do it for pure fun.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> I would hardly classify the typical deer hunting trip as a 'vicious' act. The deer (in most cases) are put down humanely with one well placed shot, not having their entrails ripped and eaten from their still living bodies. I'm not saying that people can't be vicious, we surely can, but wolves are definately vicious animals in their own right.



Not always. There are many times that the shot is not a "kill shot" and the deer has to be tracked. It is found far from the original site suffering greatly. Plus, even if the hunter plans on eating the deer later, deer hunting is not NECESSARY for him and his family to survive. There are more then enough grocery stores from which to obtain meat. The hunter hunts because he ENJOYS hunting. Sure the wolf kill may be messier and more prolonged but it is also more necessary and without the entire pack would die out. 

People like to consider them (and other carnivorous predators) vicious because the efficiency in which they kill and the fact that if we met them unarmed they could easily kill us scares us. We REALLY hate to admit that we are not as powerful and as invincible as we like to tell ourselves.


----------



## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Interesting thread.
Someone earlier mentioned domesticated dogs as opposed to wolves. (Think it was back on page 8 or 9)
Domesticated dogs that have gone feral; show behavior very similiar to wolf packs. The pack hierarchy, behavior..is almost the same.
The big difference is wolves will avoid human scent at almost all costs, where the feral dogs will go into vacant building and scavange for trash. The human scent is still a food source...no matter how skittish they are towards humans.

Some states are having huge problems with ferals as a result of the foreclosure crisis. 
National Geographic and Nova have done specials on feral dog behavior.
Really neat stuff.

I don't consider wolves vicious, but a very efficient family group. 
Likewise with the "painted dogs" of Africa (Cape Hunting Dogs)
Planet Earth had a great segement on the Cape Hunting Dogs...really amazing.

Oh, yeah...(back to the original thought of this thread...sorry) Years ago my friend had a Malamute/Wolf hybrid...that animal was huge and I really didn't feel too comfortable around it. Despite the "Peter is friendly but don't touch his feet...he'll bite you" warnings.
Aside from the Malamute...this animal just looked like a predator. People forget with all the centuries of selective breeding to get fabulous dogs like Dauschunds and English Bulldogs the root of dogs is a predator. A fairly large one.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> rabbits do it. and male lions will kill the offspring of any other male lion other than itself. and ofcourse, humans as you stated.
> 
> well, the Ambien is starting to kick in, so i'm done for the night. you all have sweet dreams ( of vicious zombies killing wolves for fun ).


Wrong. There is no animal that kills its own species out of sheer pleasure. They do it to ensure the survival of their own genes not because they get a perverse kick out of it. When a male lion kills the male lion that was head of a pride previously, he will kill the other male's cubs but not because he thinks "this is fun and now I will get my jollies killing these babies". He does it because killing the cubs wipes out the other male's line. It also throws the females into heat thereby establishing his OWN genetic line. There is a reason for almost everything that happens in nature. We humans are the only animals that don't have a really good reason for our actions or really make any sense in the things we do.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

CarrieJ said:


> Interesting thread.
> Someone earlier mentioned domesticated dogs as opposed to wolves. (Think it was back on page 8 or 9)
> Domesticated dogs that have gone feral; show behavior very similiar to wolf packs. The pack hierarchy, behavior..is almost the same.
> The big difference is wolves will avoid human scent at almost all costs, where the feral dogs will go into vacant building and scavange for trash. The human scent is still a food source...no matter how skittish they are towards humans.
> ...


 

exactly! exactly! exactly! honestly i think feral dogs are far more dangerous than a pack of wolves simply because they are still drawn to the human scent because we symbolize a food source in general. We hear so many stories about people who are killed by a pack of dogs and partially eaten before being run off. There was an incident back in december where an older woman was going out to check her mail and was attacked and killed by a pack of feral dogs about 2 hours from where i am now. 

Get in between a mama bear and her cub(s) and you have a vicious animal on your hands. She will rip you to shreds given the chance. Mama lions are the same. ALL animals will do what they can to protect their babies. If you want to call them vicious for that, i'll take it! You get between me and my kids, you'll have one heck of a fight on your hands. I dont think hunting for survival and digging in while the animals is or is not still alive would be vicious. If you were doing it for fun then yeah... it would be vicious.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> Wrong. There is no animal that kills its own species out of sheer pleasure. They do it to ensure the survival of their own genes not because they get a perverse kick out of it. When a male lion kills the male lion that was head of a pride previously, he will kill the other male's cubs but not because he thinks "this is fun and now I will get my jollies killing these babies". He does it because killing the cubs wipes out the other male's line. It also throws the females into heat thereby establishing his OWN genetic line. There is a reason for almost everything that happens in nature. We humans are the only animals that don't have a really good reason for our actions or really make any sense in the things we do.


 
:thumbup:


----------



## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Back to the original question...:laugh:

Not all wolves are bigger than a GSD, North American wolves are bigger (with Arctic wolves being the biggest) than European wolves.

I have seen 3 wolves on my property (in the Italian mountains) and I would say they were the same size as my working line shepherd. 

Beautiful animals and because they are protected here, they are much bolder than in other parts of the world. The one I saw closest, just trotted past my cabin and stopped to look at me and then carried on up into the forest at a relaxed trot. :wub:


----------



## mfj (May 14, 2011)

First of all, holy hello @ 9 pages over arguing about the definition of "vicious"! Secondly, I'm a little confused why everyone seems amazed by the size of a wolf considering there are breeds of dogs that are quite a bit bigger than any wolf. That said, wolves are awesome. /thread lol


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Are we arguing as animal lovers or English majors here?
Yes wolves are georgeous, but if the world ran out of bunnies and squirrels and any other warm blooded animal other than us, guess what they'd be eating? It happens in every situation where urban sprawl encroaches on their food supply and, no, it's not the animal's fault but let's not pretend it wouldn't eat you if there wasn't anything else around that was less work.
Anyone of the opinion that animals cannot be viscous, clearly hasn't met raccoons! In Toronto there are 200% more raccoons in the urban core than there are in rural areas... so no one can present the argument that we've encroached on their habitat. The little geniuses PREFER to live our urban buffet... and those suckers will harass you at night and hiss and bite and chase you down the street. We live in a new home, which used to be a parking lot, so no, they were not here first, this is my territory, they chose to squat in MY bushes, and now they're viscously harassing me at night.


----------



## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

This whole thread is a *vicious* circle. opcorn:


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

warpwr said:


> I visited a diorama in Springdale, UT and I found the size of the wolves interesting.
> I took some pictures and I thought I'd share them here.
> This is the wolf scene.
> 
> ...


Let's try to get back on topic before the world ends, mkay?


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Well, if by "domestication" you mean marriage. . .


I think that only applies for the male of the species. But honestly, I only have a very limited study group.


----------



## mfj (May 14, 2011)

So some wolves are just like us lol


----------

