# Bark and Hold Help



## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

One of the girls I train with is having some problems with the Bark and Hold, her dog just doesn't bark, ever. At times, there's a strange gargling sound escaping but that's about it. We've tried a lot at training and have worked up to this gargle from complete silence.

Any ideas on how to work on this at home between club days? 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What type collar/harness is used and do you work on a table or platform? If the neck is restricted that may cause a problem/inhibiting the barking.

You really can't work on this from home, IMO 
The helper should be working the dog correctly(in prey) and rewarding the bark to encourage it.
I know showing video isn't something your friend will do, but without seeing the dog being worked, we have no info on what's going on....


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Leather harness, no table or platform.

Inca (the dog) is being rewarded right now for anything that resembles a bark but hasn't progressed into a full bark.

I know she's open to getting help/ a fresh set of eyes on things, I'll ask her about getting a video. 






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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Does the dog bark out of frustration for a toy when backtied(on a harness) at home? That may trigger and carry over into the protection. That is the only thing I'd do at home.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Not sure, I know she rarely barks for anything at home. That may be something to try.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

how old is the dog, i was ready to take my dog for a vet check cos i never heard him bark untill he was 9mo and even then he was a quiet dog then at 18mo he found his voice and now won't shut up.

i also seen shuts decoys whipping a dog into a frenzy in the blinds twirling a tug or ball around on a string above their head.

another trick is to have yr dog on the other side of a fence at tease it with treats/ball and soon as it frustration barks or any noise then reward it, even if you have to walk away from it on the other side of the fence a bit and run back and treat if it barks.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

She's 2, I believe or very close to being 2. 

The whip may work, I don't know why that hasn't ever been brought out. I don't know about whipping her specifically but the sound may amp her up. 


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

if yr referring to my post i DID NOT mean whip stimulation i meant whipping metaphorically as in amping up/building frenzied drive.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I thought that was what you meant but one cannot be 100% online. I agree that may be an option.

Ill pass your other idea along as well. Building frustration by other means may just be the solution before putting it together on the field with the sleeve.

Thanks both of you for the suggestions.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

forgetting the field for awhile a lot of interactions around the home will reinforce the idea, eg i can get my not so vocal dogs now to bark for food treats, kind of a fun game. beware most trainers hate it and they think it is total rudeness and a spoilt dog that pushes the owner for a treat by barking, alpha pack status and all. if it is on command eventually i don't see how it is a rude dog dominating it's owner, but i am no alpha leader so....

please consider that dogs get vocal at different ages and be careful what you ask for.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Without seeing the training it is hard to say for certain, but I would venture to say that you have the dog "locked" in prey. It can be very difficult for some dogs to bark when they are thinking about biting. 

I would lean in the opposite direction of what has been suggested thus far. Good barking comes from aggression.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

x11 said:


> please consider that dogs get vocal at different ages and be careful what you ask for.


Haha it's not my dog, I have no issues with mine barking, she definitely has found her voice. She has three others that are quite vocal is just struggling with this one and her quiet-factor.



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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Good barking comes from aggression.


 I agree totally.
It does, but if the dog won't bark period, getting some frustration barks rewarded thru prey will trigger the vocalization...then you move to the aggressive mode. Pushing w/ defense may shut it down depending on the dog/maturity level. I assumed this was a fairly young dog.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

gaia_bear said:


> *She has three others that are quite vocal is just struggling with this one and her quiet-factor.*
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


one thing i did learn when i bought my gsd home as a pup with an established adult dog in the home is that if the pup alerted on something then the older dog would take over barking duties and the pup would defer to it and shut up. maybe this is the case in the 3 dog pack???

at least as a learned unintended behaviour, the dog may need to build confidence to step out of the shadows so to speak? just another theory.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Possibly, I should probably mention its not a GSD.

There's a 3 year old male Dobe and a year old Giant Schnauzer, dog in question is also a Giant....not that I'd think it'd make too much of a difference.

They've been doing the frustration method at training and its causing her to shut down. She's got all of the other aspects down, just the bark and hold that's holding her back.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> Without seeing the training it is hard to say for certain, but I would venture to say that you have the dog "locked" in prey. It can be very difficult for some dogs to bark when they are thinking about biting.
> 
> I would lean in the opposite direction of what has been suggested thus far. Good barking comes from aggression.


 
:thumbup: I think a lot of people can't tell when a dog gets "prey locked". 


OP, it can be done at home with something the dog really wants. The dog does not have to be back tied to accomplish this. With one of my dogs I did it with string cheese. That's what she wanted the most. It gave her the idea that when I tell her too, she barks. It carried over to protection with the right decoy.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gaia_bear said:


> Possibly, I should probably mention its not a GSD.
> 
> There's a 3 year old male Dobe and a year old Giant Schnauzer, dog in question is also a Giant....not that I'd think it'd make too much of a difference.
> 
> ...


 
OH!!! Dobes work completely different! With a dobe I go the suspicion route. Working them in full prey has never worked for me.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Some dogs are just not going to bark. If the dog can otherwise pass the trial, I think the owner should accept the dog the way it is and move on. Here is a dog that passed an IPO3 and does not bark at all during the entire trial;


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> OH!!! Dobes work completely different! With a dobe I go the suspicion route. Working them in full prey has never worked for me.


Her Dobe is great, it's the Giant that's giving her issues.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

gaia_bear said:


> *They've been doing the frustration method at training and its causing her to shut down. She's got all of the other aspects down, just the bark and hold that's holding her back.*
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
haha, not sure exactly how it goes but there is some trusim getting around that if a dog is having a specific narrow problem the more you focus on it the more you reinforce the problem and the dog can't see anything else.

in those cases forgetting about it for awhile and work on something completley different for a time seems to do the trick - again another theory.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

robk said:


> Some dogs are just not going to bark. If the dog can otherwise pass the trial, I think the owner should accept the dog the way it is and move on. Here is a dog that passed an IPO3 and does not bark at all during the entire trial;
> 
> Jari vom Haus Ming .wmv - YouTube


That's good to know, I guess we/I read the rules wrong, I was under the impression that no barking meant non-compliant and termination. 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I can't help you, I have never worked one of those.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

myo and others, what do think of the idea that the dogs that don't bark are often the ones with the best nerves, aggression and seriousness. see it in DA dogs, no bark or posture just attack with full fury without warning.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

silent guard is ok, but I like to see some power and guarding with barking, though it expends the energy quick in comparison.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

gaia_bear said:


> That's good to know, I guess we/I read the rules wrong, I was under the impression that no barking meant non-compliant and termination.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well, I have a copy of the current trial rules in front of me and it does say that the dog must bark energetically and continuously until called out. It does not say that the dog will be DQ or terminated if it does not bark. Maybe it is the discretion of the judge to decide if the guarding is strong enough with out the barking. If you watch the video you will see that the dog does not do a hold and bark at all and even leaves the helper before the call out but still finished the trial.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

hold and *BARK??*


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My understanding is in the blind the dog should bark/hold until the call out, but when outed after the escape they can do the silent guard without points taken.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

x11 said:


> hold and *BARK??*


I understand your point. A hold and bark should be a hold with barking. However I should have asked what was trying to be accomplished. To teach the dog to bark or to pass an IPO trial. I say let the dog be its self and if it wont bark move on to other parts of the routine that it can collect enough points to pass.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Trying to accomplish solely for the purpose of trial. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gaia_bear said:


> Her Dobe is great, it's the Giant that's giving her issues.


Is he a higher threshold, more civil dog?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Is he a higher threshold, more civil dog?


The Giant? Our trainer refers to her as a "hard" dog. She's fairly intense with everything else.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

robk said:


> Well, I have a copy of the current trial rules in front of me and it does say that the dog must bark energetically and continuously until called out. It does not say that the dog will be DQ or terminated if it does not bark. Maybe it is the discretion of the judge to decide if the guarding is strong enough with out the barking. If you watch the video you will see that the dog does not do a hold and bark at all and even leaves the helper before the call out but still finished the trial.


 
I just had this conversation with a judge this week because Heidi has been really dirty lately. During the blind search, the dog must Hold and bark. If no bark points are lost but no DQ. After the escape, the dog does not have to bark. No points lost there. Does this help?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I just had this conversation with a judge this week because Heidi has been really dirty lately. During the blind search, the dog must Hold and bark. If no bark points are lost but no DQ. After the escape, the dog does not have to bark. No points lost there. Does this help?


Helps tremendously. 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gaia_bear said:


> Helps tremendously.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Even though dog is not barking, it should still be guarding intensely. Just doesn't have to make noise.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I just had this conversation with a judge this week because Heidi has been really dirty lately. During the blind search, the dog must Hold and bark. If no bark points are lost but no DQ. After the escape, the dog does not have to bark. No points lost there. Does this help?


Yes and it makes sense. Points should be lost but if the dog can satisfactorily finish the routine it should be permitted to at least pass.

My point was that our dogs are all individuals and have unique character traits. If it is a good dog and can pass the trial but just isn't a barker, don't try to make it something that it isn't. Let the dog shine in other areas.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Even though dog is not barking, it should still be guarding intensely. Just doesn't have to make noise.


Thanks, Ill pass that on. I know it's something she'll still work on but won't be as stressed wondering if its going to happen.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Still needs to do a H&B in the blind search(and it goes on for some time, until the judge waves the handler in). Only in the escape/out can the dog do a silent guard.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

when did it switch from B&H to H&B???


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Unfortunately a dog that comes into the blind and doesn't bark leaves a very poor impression on the judge. I had a club member ask about this because her bitch tended to jump and bark. I don't want the first impression a judge has of my dog to be negative. 

Have you tried doing some suspicion work, maybe doing some peek-a-boo just before dark, etc to get her to bark?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

x11 said:


> when did it switch from B&H to H&B???


 
Depends who you talk to haha. I usually say bard and hold. But many say Hold and bark.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

bard??


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Depends who you talk to haha. I usually say bard and hold. But many say Hold and bark.


 
around here they call it the bark and die


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

x11 said:


> bard??


 
Bark


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I tend to use H&B since I will write just HB when I email with people. B&H would be BH and then that becomes confusing.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

lhczth said:


> I tend to use H&B since I will write just HB when I email with people. B&H would be BH and then that becomes confusing.


how is one less confusing than the other?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

x11 said:


> how is one less confusing than the other?


BH is another title. Or not a title but a pre requisite for schutzhund.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

x11 said:


> how is one less confusing than the other?


Because the BH refers to the temperament test that precedes the IPO phases.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

okey dokely, some folks i guess can't get context and some want to save adding a "&" ... it pays to communicate clearly, right on.

anyhoo i am about to get slaughtered on the "extraordinary gsd thread"


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Obviously different dogs will have different reactions to these barking exercises. Some might bark, some might not. 

One way is to play ball for a while and build up the drive a bit. Then put on a leash or back tie the dog and throw the ball but hold onto the dog. If it is itching to go it might redirect into barking. If he does bark, reward with letting him get the ball.

If the dog is working a sleeve then I would say you could use the dogs desire for the sleeve in the same way.

Another way if all else fails, is to back tie the dog in a quiet field or forest and walk away. Once your out of site for a while the dog should start barking for you to come back. You then can return for a moment and then step out of sight again until the dog kicks of barking again. The dog should start to realize you return when it barks. 

The draw back with that theory is you might want to train the dog to stay isolated from you and be quiet some time.

I use my dogs urge to run into water to entice him to 'speak' on command. I throw a stone in and he can't chase it til he barks. Now I'm channeling it into tug and making the dog pay for bites/tug by barking.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

i'm a little late to the party here. With dogs that don't bark we found barrier frustration to be effective...

One dog would not bark. Not for anything. No amount of stim would do it, no amount of suspicion work would do it (he was old enough but not mature and far enough in training for real defense.) We talking about suspicion, with the helper stalking him slowly. You have seen this before I'm sure. The goal usually is to have the dog focus on the helper as he gets closer and closer. Once the helper steps into the dog's boundary limit the dog would usually bark at which point the helper of course makes a big scared reaction and go right into prey. Anyway, that's beside the point since the dog did not bark.

What I'm about to give here is advice that should be taken with a grain a salt and performed by a knowledgeable helper with the supervision of the TD.

What we did, we brought his crate out into the field and put him in it. We did the agitation while the dog was in the crate, making sure to keep lot of prey and very little confrontation since the dog is basically in a cage and has 0 escape options. So with that we frustrated the dog. Lots of whip stimulation, big prey movement, but a little confrontation to keep the dog on a little bit of an edge. If he barked, even once, depending on the bark and the helper's work at that moment one of two things might happen:
a deep bark, with some active aggression means the helper steps back nervous and scared.
A high pitch bark, a prey bark, while the helper is frustrating the dog means the crate would open (we attached a pulley to it) and the dog gets the bite and carry. 

We would get one bark out of him and put him up.

Eventually we got that dog to bark. When he did, we moved to fence barrier. Same result but had to take a few steps back in training of course. 

When he was confident behind the fence only then did we move to a tie out and even then the dog would simply stop barking.

But, slowly but surely progress has been made and this dog does a nice steady H&B now that he understands his job.

Another dog that would not bark was too busy being flighty and trying to avoid the helper. Sniffing the ground, looking at the handler, darting back and forth at the end of the leash. That dog, we very nicely explained that is not enjoying the work and perhaps would be better suited for another work.

So you see, it depends on why the dog isn't barking. Is he nervous, sniffing the ground, looking around, etc? Or is he hard & calm on the sleeve, hard on the attack, has good drives and nice obedience, tracks well, and is focused in his guard? Why do I ask, because this dog was very nice and confident overall, just would not bark. He was like a border collie, silent stalking but pounces hard, has medium drive, but controllable biddable, and enjoyed protection.

I guess what I want to say is, don't force a dog to do something he doesn't want to do, but you can most certainly make things clear in the dog's mind if he's unclear. You most certainly can train to his weaknesses if he is genuinely enjoying the work. In other words, without seeing this dog I have qualms about giving this advice on the internet. If for wahtever reason he's not enjoying the work or wants to be anywhere else but in front of the helper maybe that dog will thrive in another sport. And he most certainly should not be put in a crate in protection work.

Ok, I think I cleared up all the disclaimers  Good luck to you!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Is the dog not barking at all, like just standing there watching, or is the dog still bouncing and maybe snapping or trying to make noise but just not getting real barking?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

my concern with barrier frustration is the possibility of creating psuedo anxiety issues or crate aggression when you leave yr dog? 

just asking


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think so. I have my helper come agitate my dog in his crate in the van before some of his bitework sessions (helps load him up so I can cap him and bring him out in a higher state of drive without the helper having to constantly agitate him). It doesn't cause him to have separation anxiety or ruin any of his crate manners. A lot of that stuff is just part of their temperament, genetic.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

cheers, i am always on the alert for unintended consequences of tarining, i know i had a decoy stimulate my dog only once when he ws locked in the vehicle and it kinds gave the dog a licence (in his mind) to act aggressive at people aproaching the vehicle, but like you said could be temp/genetic.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

it can happen, but depends on the dog. The type of dog that it can happen to probably doesn't belong on the protection field you know what I'm saying? Also, not talking about your dog in particular here x11 because that could have very well been a result of bad training by the helper. I know you have new helpers work with you and that's why I stated the importance of a good helper in this work. Also, when doing this work, it's even more important than usual to have a helper that knows how far he can push a dog without getting undesired behaviors (such as anxiety, overloading frustration levels which manifest in biting the crate and other things) and how to relieve stress. That's very important. 

Now, dogs are smart enough to understand when it's time to bark and when it's time to be quiet. So even if the dog starts barking in the crate in other situations you just correct the behavior. But hopefully, the dog has been desensitized to the crate since day 1 and have nothing but positive association with the crate. Regardless the type of work is ultimate frustration not so much aggression / fight-flight scenario and if anyone is put in fight or flight it'll be the helper reacting to a strong bark from the dog.

Again, this worked for one dog. Doesn't mean it will work for 2 dogs, 100 dogs, etc. In training, it's important to be creative. read the dog and think about training this dog. How to approach the problem. We try different things and see what sticks and [insert your cliche here]


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Is the dog not barking at all, like just standing there watching, or is the dog still bouncing and maybe snapping or trying to make noise but just not getting real barking?


Not getting real barking. She's air snapping, bouncing around like a tigger, making strange throaty noises (a gargle mixed with a whine almost).


I really appreicated all the advice I've gotten thus far, it has been passed on and received with gratitude. Thank You.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

She is stuck in a very high state of prey drive. She will need real pressure put on her to get her barking. Frustrating her prey drive will only make it worse. You might want to get all prey objects (sleeve, tugs, balls, whip) out of the picture, and do suspicion work and work her in defense. Trick is, is she mentally mature and stable enough to be pushed into defense? This is where experienced helper work comes in.

I'm not experienced enough to suggest how to set up suspicion work, or how to push her into defense. It takes a helper with "presence" that can really project a threat with only his or her energy and force of character - 

Also, she is probably already associating the training field with over-the-top prey behaviour, so you might need to go somewhere new and unfamiliar to get the new state-of-mind going. 

If asked to sit or platz in front of the helper (away from the blind), and await a bite command or a reaction from the helper for the sleeve, is she sitting there shaking from head to toe in anticipation?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK that sounds more like being stuck in prey. She needs to see some work to balance her out. HB is an aggression exercise, not prey, so somehow the helper needs to bring up the level of aggression and probably not just by trying to frustrate the dog with being restrained from a prey object.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> She is stuck in a very high state of prey drive. She will need real pressure put on her to get her barking. Frustrating her prey drive will only make it worse. You might want to get all prey objects (sleeve, tugs, balls, whip) out of the picture, and do suspicion work and work her in defense. Trick is, is she mentally mature and stable enough to be pushed into defense? This is where experienced helper work comes in.
> 
> I'm not experienced enough to suggest how to set up suspicion work, or how to push her into defense. It takes a helper with "presence" that can really project a threat with only his or her energy and force of character -
> 
> ...


Not so much shaking but more zeroed in on the helper. This is kind of what we've been leaning towards but both being new the sport and newish to the club didn't say anything, in the event that it was a far-fetched idea. I'll post a video once we get one and will talk to the trainer/helper Sunday.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Video will help a lot! One simple thing I do is as the dog is getting close to my blind I crack the whip a few times. As it's coming in I'm perfectly still so the dog can do its job. If the dog is not barking I start adding "internal pressure", make my eyes big and might even curl my lips a bit to show my teeth like I'm growling. I might look stupid, but dogs read body language. So if I act like they do when being aggressive, then they get aggressive.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I guess my question would be.... why even attempt a H-n-B if you've not gotten the dog to bark consistently or consecutively? 

Unless I'm missing something?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Scratch what I wrote..

Sounds like you really just want to teach the dog to bark.. not necessarily the H-n-B right now..


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

G-burg said:


> Scratch what I wrote..
> 
> Sounds like you really just want to teach the dog to bark.. not necessarily the H-n-B right now..


Exactly, just want to encourage her to bark then move on to the hold and bark.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Update: We went out with a different helper last night, one who's a little more animated, and Inca was a completely different dog with the barking. She moved into the blind, hid, ran away when she started barking, made such a huge difference. I thought I had taken a video but there's no sound to it. 


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

gaia_bear said:


> Update: We went out with a different helper last night, one who's a little more animated, and Inca was a completely different dog with the barking. She moved into the blind, hid, ran away when she started barking, made such a huge difference. I thought I had taken a video but there's no sound to it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh that's great news! Thanks for the update 

What did the helper say, did he mention what he thinks the dog's issues were?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Oh that's great news! Thanks for the update
> 
> What did the helper say, did he mention what he thinks the dog's issues were?


She said that prehaps our normal helper isn't as animated..he's kind of just like a post who doesn't engage a lot, which I think is a lot of the problem. She doesn't think there are any problems just that the dog needs to be engaged more but confidence is not a problem.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

gaia_bear said:


> She said that prehaps our normal helper isn't as animated..he's kind of just like a post who doesn't engage a lot, which I think is a lot of the problem. She doesn't think there are any problems just that the dog needs to be engaged more but confidence is not a problem.


Not locked into prey?  That's the problem with giving and receiving advice on the internet. I read one thing, other members read something totally different... I'm glad you found a solution though, hope you can keep working with the new helper.

An active helper is very important in the beginning... When you start, the helper sometimes needs to exert a lot of energy (movement, teasing, etc etc) to get the highest energy level out of the dog. 

Your goal should be for the helper to need less and less energy to exert the same highest energy level from the dog, leading to an active dog on either an active OR PASSIVE helper. But in the beginning, we helpers need to do all the work


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Not locked into prey?  That's the problem with giving and receiving advice on the internet. I read one thing, other members read something totally different... I'm glad you found a solution though, hope you can keep working with the new helper.
> 
> An active helper is very important in the beginning... When you start, the helper sometimes needs to exert a lot of energy (movement, teasing, etc etc) to get the highest energy level out of the dog.
> 
> Your goal should be for the helper to need less and less energy to exert the same highest energy level from the dog, leading to an active dog on either an active OR PASSIVE helper. But in the beginning, we helpers need to do all the work


We are going to keep working with her and she's developed a game plan to decrease the amount of energy she needs to exert to keep the dog engaged.


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