# "Working show line"?



## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Not sure if this is the best place to post this question, but I'm still getting to know my way around these forums, so please bear with me!

I have a 3 month old German Shepherd puppy, so I'm definitely not in the market for another dog right now. Eventually I think I'd like another one, but likely not for a few years.

However, I've been continuing to do some research into the breed and breeders and what's available out there. I'm new to German Shepherds, and am still learning a lot. Today I found something that confuses me - a breeder marketing their dogs as "west German working show line German shepherd dogs". I had gotten the impression that working line and show line were the main two separate kinds of German Shepherds. Does "working show line" make sense?

Thanks for any info you can share with me, I'm enjoying learning more about being a GSD owner and about the breed itself


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## bellagriff (Jul 1, 2012)

I am no expert by any definition, but with my small amount of knowledge that does seem a bit like an oxymoron. I am curious what they consider to be "working lines." Many of the show line breeders try to get into the working line market by doing some basic schutzhund. Unfortunately it can be quite pitiful as many show line GSDs have very poor hips. So, I would want to see a demonstration of these dogs "working" before I got too far into the process.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Oh my God, when does the insanity end? ^^^^


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Maybe they meant their dogs are West German show line by pedigree but they do some kind of work with them?

"Line" by definition means the breeding of the dog, not necessarily what they are good at doing. There are show lines with bad conformation and working lines with poor temperament and structure, but they are still described as such because of their background. 

If they actually meant that their dogs are a mixture of working and show lines, but didn't explain it that way, it would make me question the knowledge of the breeder.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

J-Boo said:


> Not sure if this is the best place to post this question, but I'm still getting to know my way around these forums, so please bear with me!
> 
> I have a 3 month old German Shepherd puppy, so I'm definitely not in the market for another dog right now. Eventually I think I'd like another one, but likely not for a few years.
> 
> ...


Could they be German Show lines?

German Show lines need to be titled to be accepted by SV standards.. 
They should have an IPO title, which does imply some 'work'...

Anyways I guess as other posters said, it could be a bit of an oxymoron. Maybe just marketing so laymen can understand the difference between american lines and german lines for example...
Tread with a bit of care.. But some show-lines are being 'worked'.. They have to get the same titles some other working line breeders are breeding with.

It is not a completely ridiculous statement.
This explains it pretty well:
Leerburg Dog Training | German Bloodline Dogs vs. American Bloodline Dogs

Breeding on 'prey drive' is still great for having an intelligent workable GSD... Even if it would not likely be a police dog or do real work.. It is still great for sport and pet training. There is still focus on trainability and soundness of nerves.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

IMO the dog is his pedigree. Working line dogs can be lazy nervebags and show line dogs can be working police K9s, but it doesn't change their pedigree. A working line dog comes from generations of working line dogs, whether it works or not. A show line dog comes from generations of show line dogs, whether it ever enters a dog show or not. Plenty of people work show lines and show working lines.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks for the quick responses! Your answers make sense. If I do get another GSD in a few years, I think it would likely be a working line dog, and so I'm just kind of looking at what's out there.

And Larhage, to what insanity do you refer?? The whole "line" debate, the way this breeder has marketed their dogs, or my question?


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

I think Laharge is referring to the 2nd comment in the thread.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Liesje said:


> IMO the dog is his pedigree. Working line dogs can be lazy nervebags and show line dogs can be working police K9s, but it doesn't change their pedigree. A working line dog comes from generations of working line dogs, whether it works or not. A show line dog comes from generations of show line dogs, whether it ever enters a dog show or not. Plenty of people work show lines and show working lines.


here you go! i have read on this board that showline dogs can work.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

McWeagle said:


> I think Laharge is referring to the 2nd comment in the thread.


Thats my guess too, the showline/dysplasia part.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Ah, so people are in disagreement about show line GSDs being any more likely to have hip problems than working line dogs, is that it?

Thanks again for the all the responses. Miss Maya is an American show line GSD, but perhaps in a few years she will have a little brother from a working line


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

J-Boo said:


> Thanks for the quick responses! Your answers make sense. If I do get another GSD in a few years, I think it would likely be a working line dog, and so I'm just kind of looking at what's out there.
> 
> And Larhage, to what insanity do you refer?? The whole "line" debate, the way this breeder has marketed their dogs, or my question?


Whatever direction you go, make sure the breeder is reputable and trustworthy.

Dont take anything at face value..
There are good people, and bad people out to make a quick buck, and naming the dog 'working line' might just be a scam to get you to pay more for just any dog. 

Show Lines are easier to identify good from bad breeders I believe. Could be wrong. But I am inclined to feel that way.

I think working line buyers need to be more knowledgeable in getting those type of dogs than the average GSD owner.
Working lines are essentially what the GSD was meant to be, but its not everybody's perfect fit dog.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Started putting the response below together and then got hung up on a call. You guys are fast. In any event, thought I'd post this, although it does repeat some of the points made not sure if already know this and if so, please feel free to skip through it.

The GSD is supposed to be a working dog. It is the central idea on which the breed is founded. However, over the last 100 years the breed has become divided into somewhat distinct subsets of the GSD (although there is certainly some cross-over). They can roughly be divided into three separate categories: American GSD's, German (European) Show line dogs and German (European/Eastern European) working line dogs. 

American GSD are essentially show dogs. In other words, those dogs that are most successful in the show ring are the ones that get bred.

German (European) show line dogs are something of a hybrid. They are show dogs in the sense that the dogs most likely to be bred are those that do well in the show ring. However, in Germany, to breed a GSD he must have some kind of a working title (usually a schutzhund title). Thus, they do need to have some working ability and if you look at most of the stud dogs they usually have Schutzhund III titles. (Although not all Schutzhund III dogs are created equal.

German working lines tend to be about success in Schutzhund trials. Thus, those dogs that are bred the most (particularly the males) are those who get top scores in regional and national competitions. Appearance, coloring, etc. are relatively unimportant.

Of course, these different priorities produce different kinds of dogs, both in appearance and in temperment. 

Finally, withing these three divisions there are other divisions - particularly among the European working lines. Thus, there are czech dogs, east german dogs, west german dogs, etc.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

J-Boo said:


> Ah, so people are in disagreement about show line GSDs being any more likely to have hip problems than working line dogs, is that it?
> 
> Thanks again for the all the responses. Miss Maya is an American show line GSD, but perhaps in a few years she will have a little brother from a working line


if an american showline dog is ofa cert, it is no more likely to have HD than a working line dog. again you need to research the pedigree. my observation is DM is more prevalent in the american showline gsd.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Okay. The breeder I got my puppy from does produce OFA certified dogs. 

One problem with this "working show line" breeder's website is how cluttered and unclear it is. Regardless of how awesome yours dogs and their pedigrees are, a website can really make or break you, as far as attracting potential buyers. Like it or not, the website is often the primary way a buyer has of judging all of the breeders out there. If your strength is with the dogs and breeding, great, but then consider hiring someone to design your website!

Sorry if I stirred the flames of the heated debate I have detected here about one line being superior to the other! My primary goal is for a good family pet, a loyal companion good with children. I'm sure reading through these forums over the next few years will help point me in the right direction


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I think the breeder may be advertising their breeding stock are working line/show line crosses. There is a current 'trend' to mix working and show lines. A friend of mine has a young male that she purchased for her breeding program. She breeds American Show lines. This male is a working/show cross. I looked at his pedigree and his dams side is the working line side. Some west german, czech lines. The dog has elbow displasia. So bad he will need to be put down when it becomes too painful for him. So where did the ED come from? Total outcrossing. I dont have the pedigree in front of me again so not sure if health checks were done on both sides of the pedigree. The point being, any breeding stock should have health testing done before being bred. Doesnt matter what species either. If there are health problems known, can be tested for, then it should be done. In my opinion, the jury is still out on DM testing.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

"Sorry if I stirred the flames of the heated debate I have detected here about one line being superior to the other! My primary goal is for a good family pet, a loyal companion good with children. I'm sure reading through these forums over the next few years will help point me in the right direction."


That is the goal of most people that come here, and I think some of our members forget that. The average PET buyer doesnt care about titles. They do want a healthy pet but dont know how to go about finding the right one. We should be here to educate. Titles and health testing breeding stock cost money and that should be reflected in the purchase price. Doing your due diligence to research the 'claims' posted on a website are the bare minimum. Coming here and asking questions are what you should do. Filter out the personalities and take away the information you can use.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Showlines are not more prone to hip problems, this is false and completely silly information. You see most showlines in a stacked position in photos but this is not how they truly stand, you cannot tell a dog has HD just by looking at them and the angulation of their back or hips has ZERO to do with HD.

That said like Lies said I've met some amazing showlines working in IPO and herding, I've also met some working lines with no drive and who were very nervy so I am of the opinion it is about the dog and the breeding, not the lines.

My boy is a work/show cross so maybe possibly they could also be crosses as well... Hard to say!


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Carriesue said:


> Showlines are not more prone to hip problems, this is false and completely silly information. You see most showlines in a stacked position in photos but this is not how they truly stand, you cannot tell a dog has HD just by looking at them and the angulation of their back or hips has ZERO to do with HD.
> 
> That said like Lies said I've met some amazing showlines working in IPO and herding, I've also met some working lines with no drive and who were very nervy so I am of the opinion it is about the dog and the breeding, not the lines.
> 
> My boy is a work/show cross so maybe possibly they could also be crosses as well... Hard to say!


Its a bit of everything...

WL, west german show line, american show line...
Theoretically could be classified as completely different breeds.

Cross breeding between lines is considered taboo by some... But I am inclined to think the genetic variability, could actually produce healthier dogs, albeit less 'predictable' results. 

Anyways. A bit of everything plays a role.
The lines are simply for people to pick a 'predictable' type dog that suits them.

That said.. Breeding, puppy selection.. Well everything plays a role.
We cant rule out a variable as unimportant. It would be too simplistic and easy to do that.

When selecting a dog.. The most logical thing to do is select your breed of dog first...
In GSD's the line of dog is like selecting a breed of dog.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

If the OP could give the name of the breeder or post a link I'm sure this question could be answered quite easily.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Lykoz said:


> Its a bit of everything...
> 
> WL, west german show line, american show line...
> Theoretically could be classified as completely different breeds.
> ...


agree, always select the line that fit your life style. then find a breeder you are comfortable with that can supply pup that will fit your needs.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have had a working line german shepherd many many years ago before the kids and was a great dog. I believed he was a from belgium line. Very intense but subtle at the same time. Wasn't afraid of anyone or anything accept for thunder storms and nail trims at the vet. He had ocd when it came to balls and sticks a very strong prey drive. He liked his own space but at times he was a mush. He would run into a burning building to save us without blinking an eye. He had bad arthritis at age of ten and we had to put him to sleep. He has come to me in my dreams once and warned me about certain people or situations. I waited till the kids were old enough to get another german shepherd. We now have a 5 month old american showline german shepherd. He is the sweetest boy. He is very intelligent I am amazed how quick he learns and has a medium high ball drive. He is not fearful in new situations if he does hesitate for a second he recovers quick. He is very sweet and affectionate. His parents grandparents and great grandparents etc. are all ofa certified. My pup's breeder sold one of her puppies to a neighbor that was a police officer who trained the pup into a succesful cadaver dog. The breeder just recently sold a second puppy to this same police officer to train as a cadaver/ rescue dog. So since my puppy is only 5 months old the only difference i can tell between the working line and asl line is far is the intensity levels and the way they look. The american showline is a bit softer but in no way spooky,timid, or dysplastic. Im sure there are bottoms of the barrel in every in every line including workingline, showline, asl and should be compared equally. It is good to meet all the different lines of german shepherds to see what best fits into your life style:doggieplayball:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kirchental had awesome West German Showline dogs that he raised from stock he herded with regularly, which definitely made them what their pedigree was, bred as working sheep-herding dogs, generation after generation.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> Kirchental had awesome West German Showline dogs that he raised from stock he herded with regularly, which definitely made them what their pedigree was, bred as working sheep-herding dogs, generation after generation.


many generations ago...not so now.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

McWeagle said:


> I think Laharge is referring to the 2nd comment in the thread.


BINGO!!!!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> many generations ago...not so now.



My herding instructor would disagree with this statement.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I've heard the guy who was a shepherd passed on, and they are not what they used to be, but there were some awesome dogs come out of that kennel that many of our dogs still go back to.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

selzer said:


> I've heard the guy who was a shepherd passed on, and they are not what they used to be, but there were some awesome dogs come out of that kennel that many of our dogs still go back to.



The kennel is now dissolved. Marion was breeding for a bit, but not anymore. My TJ is from her last litter.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

mspiker03 said:


> The kennel is now dissolved. Marion was breeding for a bit, but not anymore. My TJ is from her last litter.


traumhof maybe?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> I've heard the guy who was a shepherd passed on, and they are not what they used to be, but there were some awesome dogs come out of that kennel that many of our dogs still go back to.



Haha I had to do a triple-take at "The guy who was a shepherd." Wait? Was he a guy or a Shepherd? The guy was a. . . .OH YEAH! :rofl:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Emoore said:


> Haha I had to do a triple-take at "The guy who was a shepherd." Wait? Was he a guy or a Shepherd? The guy was a. . . .OH YEAH! :rofl:


Ok, that is pretty funny.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

One poster asked about the identity of the breeder - it's Gunbil. But I guess my goal isn't so much to identify what exactly they produce, since I'm not in the market just yet, but to clarify the "working show line" statement since as a new owner I'm trying to better understand the breed and all the things involved with being a GSD lover


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

mspiker03 said:


> My herding instructor would disagree with this statement.


I assume that would be Rich? I would agree. Singer looks fantastic herding, my Gavin is breeding a Herding Champion from Binderhaus Kennels this summer, she already has a waiting list for the puppies, Gavin is a full brother to Singer.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

LARHAGE said:


> I assume that would be Rich? I would agree. Singer looks fantastic herding, my Gavin is breeding a Herding Champion from Binderhaus Kennels this summer, she already has a waiting list for the puppies, Gavin is a full brother to Singer.



No, I don't work with Rich anymore (since I moved). But I do know him and met Singer as a puppy. I train in Gardnerville, NV now. My trainer is not a GSD person but has wanted to "take" my dog since she was a pup. She has had some amazing "stock sense" since she was young.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

J-Boo said:


> One poster asked about the identity of the breeder - it's Gunbil. But I guess my goal isn't so much to identify what exactly they produce, since I'm not in the market just yet, but to clarify the "working show line" statement since as a new owner I'm trying to better understand the breed and all the things involved with being a GSD lover



That explains it. I think their website is just confusing. They breed West German show line puppies from Schutzhund titled parents. They also offer working line puppies. So, not a mix of the two.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Just for clarification, there is no disagreement on the incidence of Hip Dysplasia in SL vs WL. 

There is, however, a myth that refuses to die that WLs are immune to it. 

This false statement is one of the first signs the person making it is either not well versed in GSDs or refuses to accept truth.

As an interesting aside, last time I checked per the OFA Pugs are more prone to HD then GSDs. 



J-Boo said:


> Ah, so people are in disagreement about show line GSDs being any more likely to have hip problems than working line dogs, is that it?
> 
> Thanks again for the all the responses. Miss Maya is an American show line GSD, but perhaps in a few years she will have a little brother from a working line


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

With out responding to all the comments in this thread, I just wanted to say that there are breeders who are producing some nice show lines that work. I watched Pike vom Eichenluft do an IPO2 a few weeks ago at the 2015 SE IPO Championships and that was a nice dog who put a lot of working lines to shame.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2035496-pike-vom-eichenluft


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

i Think they were referring to how insane it is people will judge a whole line of dog as bad without even looking into it or doing real rresearch or looking at the good qualities 

like someone else said you get czech showlines with good nerves and can work can be good guards and serious 


you get working lines lots poor nerve horrible work or tooo much prey drive


I want a good showline rather than a poor working line

either is good if it fits into what i want from a dog 

nothing is written in stone, it depends on the individual breeder and their goals

depends on the breeder how well they know their dogs and how good they are at matching I think


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I was looking at my dog's pedigree the other day trying to figure out where the working line/show line cross came in and why.

I pulled up the Hausmekon GSD site (where the line came from) and found out that they intentionally cross and have been doing so for many years. I noticed that they do a lot of herding competition with their dogs. They even have one female who certified in cattle herding??? Hadn't heard of that work before for GSD's. There's a picture of her on the site with the cattle. She's been breeding and titling for over 30 years. I would love to email her and ask about the reason for the crossing but I don't want to be a bother to her.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> I was looking at my dog's pedigree the other day trying to figure out where the working line/show line cross came in and why.
> 
> I pulled up the Hausmekon GSD site (where the line came from) and found out that they intentionally cross and have been doing so for many years. I noticed that they do a lot of herding competition with their dogs. They even have one female who certified in cattle herding??? Hadn't heard of that work before for GSD's. There's a picture of her on the site with the cattle. She's been breeding and titling for over 30 years. I would love to email her and ask about the reason for the crossing but I don't want to be a bother to her.


GSDs are herders. I know a few that do herding and do it well


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> I was looking at my dog's pedigree the other day trying to figure out where the working line/show line cross came in and why.
> 
> I pulled up the Hausmekon GSD site (where the line came from) and found out that they intentionally cross and have been doing so for many years. I noticed that they do a lot of herding competition with their dogs. They even have one female who certified in cattle herding??? Hadn't heard of that work before for GSD's. There's a picture of her on the site with the cattle. She's been breeding and titling for over 30 years. I would love to email her and ask about the reason for the crossing but I don't want to be a bother to her.


My boy is an intentional cross... I don't think its something that should be done a lot but a nice dog is a nice dog and if the dogs compliment each other and would produce sound dogs with nice working drives I can see it. 

I also train in herding with my GSD, he has phenomal instinct and talent though is very high drive and we're still working through issues with him biting the stock when he gets too amped up... we are starting on sheep but eventually I plan to try cattle, ducks, etc.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

...dont get a cross or a SL if your particular about working qualities...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> ...dont get a cross or a SL if your particular about working qualities...


Given the fact that some SL's can work, and if you are dealing with a very experienced breeder that sees a benefit occasionally and those breedings have worked out well, why not?


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> ...dont get a cross or a SL if your particular about working qualities...


Don't listen to this person. 

Granted yes if you want to compete in high level and have the odds in your favor a working line is the way to go, my next dog will be a full working line I get it. 

Maybe I've gotten lucky and been spoiled but I've been around some amazing showlines at my club, my dogs half sister for one totally blows the whole showlines can't work thing out of the water and she preforms at the same level and possibly better than the working lines at the club. She is very drivey with a good amount of fight drive, honestly if it weren't for her coat color you wouldn't even know she's a SL. 

I do wish more SL kennels focused on working ability but there are some very nice kennels out there producing very nice SL's, I wish this topic would die... If you don't like SL's simple, don't get one and stop whining about them over the internet.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Given the fact that some SL's can work, and if you are dealing with a very experienced breeder that sees a benefit occasionally and those breedings have worked out well, why not?



Until you've worked a dog, seen dozens if not hundreds of dogs work, you won't get it. For most people, a very low level of success is just fine. If you're someone who wants to do higher level type things, regional, even national level events...you don't risk it with anything that has SL in it.

Mostly, you don't want to deal with having to do certain things when the dog is young. Many things are a waste of time...like building prey drive, desensitizing to things like the blind or the stick, developing a full grip, ect. And unfortunately, you see most of these problems with SL dogs. There are some thing that just shouldn't be a struggle to the handler to deal with and can be genetically imprinted in the dog rather than a trained exercise.

The definition of "worked out well" can be highly debated. Most people want exceptional, not just okay.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

I recently spoke with someone who used to train GSDs for police work. He said that police are moving more and more towards other breeds, such as the Belgian Malinois, because GSDs now have a higher incidence of health issues due to an inevitable amount of inbreeding that comes with the fact that they are so popular and get bred so much. It got me to thinking if crossing the lines might be a viable option for helping with this. It would be a process, though, making sure to use bloodlines in that would have the best chance of producing dogs with the right drive and temperament for working.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Until you've worked a dog, seen dozens if not hundreds of dogs work, you won't get it. For most people, a very low level of success is just fine. If you're someone who wants to do higher level type things, regional, even national level events...you don't risk it with anything that has SL in it.
> 
> Mostly, you don't want to deal with having to do certain things when the dog is young. Many things are a waste of time...like building prey drive, desensitizing to things like the blind or the stick, developing a full grip, ect. And unfortunately, you see most of these problems with SL dogs. There are some thing that just shouldn't be a struggle to the handler to deal with and can be genetically imprinted in the dog rather than a trained exercise.
> 
> The definition of "worked out well" can be highly debated. Most people want exceptional, not just okay.


You don't get it. You don't speak for the many. You speak for yourself and your preferences. You say "For most people, a very low level of success is just fine". Then you turn around and say "Most people want exceptional, not just okay".

My post is about the possibility of an "occasional" Xing when an experienced qualified breeder can see merit in it. I understand that you do not believe in crossing for any reason. I get it.....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*



Stonevintage said:


> You don't get it. You don't speak for the many. You speak for yourself and your preferences. You say "For most people, a very low level of success is just fine". Then you turn around and say "Most people want exceptional, not just okay".
> 
> 
> 
> My post is about the possibility of an "occasional" Xing when an experienced qualified breeder can see merit in it. I understand that you do not believe in crossing for any reason. I get it.....



How many national level events have you attended?

Or...how many club level trials have you been to?

How many club training sessions have you been to?

Let's try and understand what you believe is "working ability?" And what these crosses have to offer to the world of GSD. I'd love to know your understanding of what these crosses do for either the show and working world.

What I should've said was that most people that have higher goals, want exceptional. They're not looking for crosses, they don't want any doubt that the dog is capable of doing the work they need it to do.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

J-Boo said:


> I recently spoke with someone who used to train GSDs for police work. He said that police are moving more and more towards other breeds, such as the Belgian Malinois, because GSDs now have a higher incidence of health issues due to an inevitable amount of inbreeding that comes with the fact that they are so popular and get bred so much. It got me to thinking if crossing the lines might be a viable option for helping with this. It would be a process, though, making sure to use bloodlines in that would have the best chance of producing dogs with the right drive and temperament for working.


I understand what you are saying J-Boo. I've heard that the law endorsement and military are attracted to the smaller size of the Mals also. Unfortunately, the health issues are not in one line and absent in another from what I've learned here and elsewhere. I wish some of the breeders would concentrate more on the health issues rather than winning ribbons in the rings. 

As you can see, some people are not in favor of crosses at all. Outside of the fact that most crosses would not produce a dog that would win in the show ring or be working at the highest levels of the obedience/working disciplines, I fail to see why they are so insistent the the lines not be crossed - ever. 

It may very well be a way to "cure" some of the problems the breed has just by virtue of a larger genetic pool to select from. It would be a start anyway. How do we know unless we try?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*

I own a cross myself. IPO3x2, FH, and I can tell you that had I originally purchased that dog for IPO or any sport training in general, I would've been severely disappointed. This does not go to say that he's a bad dog. He's a great dog. Great with (most) people and dogs and environmentally safe, but lacks workable drive and stable nerve that makes him any acceptable prospect for work. It's not a bad assumption at this point to say that anyone who is seriously considering a dog for sport work should look for a working line. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one with this experience.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> It may very well be a way to "cure" some of the problems the breed has just by virtue of a larger genetic pool to select from. It would be a start anyway. How do we know unless we try?


Yes, this is the part I meant  You would surely plan on "playing around" for a few generations to try to get what you wanted, but as long as the breeder paid attention to the bloodlines (as far as health and titles giving an idea of the dogs' abilities, etc), you could probably shape them into the right kind of dog as far as drive and temperament and all that. That must be how they shaped the "perfect" working dog to begin with, right? This would at least have the potential to stave off some of the issues of a limited genetic pool for a while. 

Just an idea! I mean, I'm sure the Belgian Malinois is great and all, but still, gotta love the GSDs and be proud of what they're capable of


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what you are saying J-Boo. I've heard that the law endorsement and military are attracted to the smaller size of the Mals also. Unfortunately, the health issues are not in one line and absent in another from what I've learned here and elsewhere. I wish some of the breeders would concentrate more on the health issues rather than winning ribbons in the rings.
> 
> As you can see, some people are not in favor of crosses at all. Outside of the fact that most crosses would not produce a dog that would win in the show ring or be working at the highest levels of the obedience/working disciplines, I fail to see why they are so insistent the the lines not be crossed - ever.
> 
> It may very well be a way to "cure" some of the problems the breed has just by virtue of a larger genetic pool to select from. It would be a start anyway. How do we know unless we try?


 You don’t believe breeders concentrate on health? Do you think that breeders want to get dogs back with HD or other genetic diseases, and have to provide replacement puppies free of charge to people? The breeders that aren’t concentrating on health, aren’t the ones that are winning ribbons. They don’t care about ribbons, they don’t care about working titles, they don’t care about health. You can’t work a dog to a high level if it’s not healthy. There are plenty of people on this forum that have retired a dog at a year old because it had bad health…can’t work it, can’t show it, can’t breed it.

Do you think that military and police don’t look at show lines just because? Or do you think there’s a reason that they pull their stock from working lines? You don’t think that those people are rational, have enough experience (I’m willing to bet a lot more than you do), and make their decisions based on what they see rather than being “line blind?”

What problems does the breed have due to the smaller genetic pool? Which lines have the smaller genetic pool? How closed is this genetic pool based on the research that you have done? How many breeding dogs are there out there? Just as a test…how many people on this forum do you know own a dog that is directly, or let’s say within the last three generations, related to your dog?

Until you understand the drive, nerve, and temperament necessary for doing any kind of higher level sport, and then due to that understand what more is necessary for a real working dog, you can’t really discuss why people do or don’t do certain things. The conversation is highly theoretical, but becomes useless when people that don’t have the slightest understanding of what a dog needs to be like in order to be successful in those higher level venues start dismissing the opinions of those of us who have real experience to go off of.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

J-Boo said:


> Yes, this is the part I meant  You would surely plan on "playing around" for a few generations to try to get what you wanted, but as long as the breeder paid attention to the bloodlines (as far as health and titles giving an idea of the dogs' abilities, etc), you could probably shape them into the right kind of dog as far as drive and temperament and all that. That must be how they shaped the "perfect" working dog to begin with, right? This would at least have the potential to stave off some of the issues of a limited genetic pool for a while.
> 
> Just an idea! I mean, I'm sure the Belgian Malinois is great and all, but still, gotta love the GSDs and be proud of what they're capable of


And who gets all those puppies through those "playing around" generations. Also...a dog generation takes a minimum of 2 years, so how many years of a breeding program do you expect a breeder to take in order to do what you propose?

Again...until you see the dogs work, understand what it takes to get a title, you won't understand why it is that many people don't do this. Unless you've been actively working towards a title, or have titled a dog previously, the title doesn't mean much to you. The work and struggle to get one with a particular dog...it means nothing to people that don't do it. On top of that, the understanding of how drive, nerve, temperament, tends to mix and pass itself on in later generations is something that can't be explained until people see dogs work and understand what is exceptional and what is just moderate.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

When I was looking for a dog I told the breeder I was looking for a "medium drive family pet that would also be a beginning sport dog in obedience and agility." I was not looking for a top sport dog or IPO dog, but when he was around 9 months old I found out there were some well-known IPO trainers up the street. I decided to try it with him, and he has surprised everyone with how well he took to it. My boy is 100% WGSL, and while he will not be a podium dog, I have no doubt that I can title him. Protection is by far his favorite thing to do, and he is definitely not lacking in drive or nervy. I love my dog and am very lucky that I am able to learn with him, but my next working dog will be a working line.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

martemchik said:


> And who gets all those puppies through those "playing around" generations. Also...a dog generation takes a minimum of 2 years, so how many years of a breeding program do you expect a breeder to take in order to do what you propose?


It's not as if the first GSD ever was automatically the best temperament, nerve and drive for the perfect working dog. The whole point of a breeding program is to breed toward a goal; in the case of the GSD (at least the original purpose for breeding GSDs), a working dog. Of course that takes time. Any worthy breeder would understand this and know that aiming for a certain goal would take time. These days, GSDs have been bred so much due to their popularity, that a brand new breeder can start right off the bat with perfect bloodlines and just keep a good thing going by continuing to breed for the standard. It all had to start somewhere, right?

And just like any breeder who ends up with pups that aren't all the exact epitome of perfection of the breed but are still good dogs, you would place some as pets, keep some yourself, and of course work and title them (and hopefully find some other owners willing to do the same) to show just what they are capable of, so that your breeding program could continue accordingly.

As you said, this is all hypothetical. Not sure where you got so worked up in all of this. I'm certainly not questioning your knowledge and experience with working dogs.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Crossing of lines that are several generations unrelated is happening all the time. Most of the top competition dogs and probably a large percentage of the dogs in the real working world are results from these crosses. They just aren't working/show crosses. They are WGWL/Czech crosses. If done by an educated breeder who then knows how to use these crosses in their program it can work. It just can't be a "let's do a cross" decision. It should be a well thought out decision just like all breedings should be. 

Would I do a show/WGWL cross, no. Not because I haven't seen some decent WGSL dogs, but because I have yet to see any that can consistently produce what I expect in a working dog (and I am not talking just sport).


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

lhczth said:


> Would I do a show/WGWL cross, no. Not because I haven't seen some decent WGSL dogs, but because I have yet to see any that can consistently produce what I expect in a working dog (and I am not talking just sport).


Maya is my first dog, ever, and she is ASL. I'm loving working with her. Of course there have been some frustrating moments, but overall it's very rewarding. I think it would be great fun to try some nose work with her, or agility, or several other options - there are so many possibilities!

I would love to get a working GSD some day down the road, maybe in 2 or 3 years, and see what we can do together. Maya is teaching me about the breed (and about dogs in general!), but I'd like to how far I can go with a working line dog as well.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm not sure why the beginning of the breed...over 100 years ago has anything to do with your argument. There has been a century of breeding that has gotten the breed to where it is currently, and there's no reason for any breeder to take a step back and try to reinvent the wheel. On top of that, it is historic record that puppies back then were culled when they didn't show the proper working ability the breeder wanted, I would love to see what would happen to a breeder today that admitted that they cull their puppies...

You made the argument...the idea is to make better dogs. When you focus on working ability, you're going to look at better working dogs. Structure is important, but not as important as working ability. So why would a breeder take a step back, breed to a dog that has better show structure, but lesser work ability, just to maybe 3-4 generations down the line have a broader gene pool within their lines? Which btw...is easily done without needing to go to show lines anyways.

You don't find it interesting that we have two people on this thread that have either 100% show line or a showline cross, that after they've started working their dogs are saying their next dog will still be 100% working line? Pretty telling that even people with very little experience are able to tell the difference and know where their best chance of a successful dog lies...


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

martemchik said:


> I'm not sure why the beginning of the breed...over 100 years ago has anything to do with your argument. There has been a century of breeding that has gotten the breed to where it is currently, and there's no reason for any breeder to take a step back and try to reinvent the wheel. On top of that, it is historic record that puppies back then were culled when they didn't show the proper working ability the breeder wanted, I would love to see what would happen to a breeder today that admitted that they cull their puppies...
> 
> You made the argument...the idea is to make better dogs. When you focus on working ability, you're going to look at better working dogs. Structure is important, but not as important as working ability. So why would a breeder take a step back, breed to a dog that has better show structure, but lesser work ability, just to maybe 3-4 generations down the line have a broader gene pool within their lines? Which btw...is easily done without needing to go to show lines anyways.
> 
> You don't find it interesting that we have two people on this thread that have either 100% show line or a showline cross, that after they've started working their dogs are saying their next dog will still be 100% working line? Pretty telling that even people with very little experience are able to tell the difference and know where their best chance of a successful dog lies...



We're apparently just having two entirely different discussions here.

I shared that someone who worked training GSDs as police dogs told me that one reason they are trending more toward using different breeds is the fact that GSDs are having more health issues over time due to an inevitable amount of inbreeding since their popularity over the years has led to so many of them being bred. Good breeders of course look into the bloodlines and make sure there is decent degrees of separation between the dogs they breed with one another, but that doesn't change the fact that a breed that has been bred so much will inevitably have a smaller genetic pool than one that hasn't been bred as much, as long as those breeders have also paid attention to bloodlines.

I just postulated - again, hypothetically - that the show/working line cross that was being debated might at least help enlarge the gene pool a bit, albeit temporarily. Your reply seemed to indicate that the reason this was a a bad idea was because it would take a long time. To which I responded, of course it would take a long time. Breeding GSDs in the first place took a long time to achieve certain goals for the breed, it's a given that if you are just starting out breeding for specific traits it would take a long time. Obviously.

Many breeders sell their puppies as either working/show puppies OR as pets. There will be overlap in the dogs with no black and white line saying which dog is definitely cut out for what, but breeders who are familiar with their dogs will have a good idea of which pups are better suited to what kind of home based on drive and temperament, etc. You know all this, of course. So if you hypothetically WERE trying a cross to achieve a certain goal, in the process you would end up with puppies that have not yet reached the full potential of what you are going for, but could still make great pets and still being worked/shown to the best of their ability in order to show what that generation IS capable of, so you have some knowledge of what to expect moving forward with the breeding program.

Your argument that 100% working line dogs make better working dogs is in no way being contested, at least not by me.

So I guess we'll just have to accept that we are participating in two only semi-related discussions, and move on!


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

I suppose the thread format can confuse things too, making it seem like a reply is aimed specifically as a response to a particular other point. 

I'm not arguing your point that if you want a working dog, your best bet it to get a 100% working line dog. I was making a separate point about how one potential benefit of crossing lines could be the expanding of the genetic pool. If you wanted perfect working dogs after such a cross, it would in a way be reinventing the wheel, but IF the gene pool thing was the priority, then that's what you would be looking at. That's all I was saying, not inferring that your argument was wrong.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Fine...IF, and its a huge IF, you assume that working venues are going away from GSD due to health, I have no idea how including other lines (with absolutely no proof or correlation to a better health record) will make the dog healthier. You're going off of the myth that "bigger gene pool = healthier dog." It's not true. The idea that mutts don't get diseases is completely false. The whole "best genes from both breeds" makes absolutely zero scientific sense. If when you bred two dogs together, all you got were the best of both dogs, then even in pure bred dogs you wouldn't have any problems. You'd be able to breed a dysplastic dog, to a dog with excellent hips, and if "best genetics" wins out, all the puppies would have excellent hips. But we all know that's not how it works.

I'm also not sure how "the fact that a breed that has been bred so much will inevitably have a smaller genetic pool than one that hasn't been bred as much" That makes absolutely no sense. If a breed is bigger by numbers that means more dogs are being bred and therefore there are more sires and dams included in the breeding. Smaller (by number) breeds, like Malanois or any of the other "rarer" breeds have much tighter lines as in general only the top stud dogs are used...

Also...the Belgian Malanois breed started right around the same time that the GSD did. So why are you assuming that those lines aren't just as inbred as GSD lines? Where is the information about Belgian Malanois being any healthier than GSD? Trust me...there are tons of reasons that SOME police departments are switching to Belgians, and then there are tons of reasons why SOME police departments are now going back to GSD. Some of it is health, but there are other much bigger reasons why this is happening.

Get your dog out on a working field, then you'll have a much better understanding of what breeders look for when developing their lines, and breeding towards either a sport dog, and maybe a working dog. You'll understand why going through generations of "pet quality" dogs isn't going to help the breeder achieve the type of goals that IMO most breeders should have.

I know what you're trying to get across...but it just makes very little sense for a breeder's goal to be "expand the gene pool." Which...when you're involved in the breed, and understand what's happening, you'll see is pretty broad. It's not as big of an issue as people who are reading internet articles make it out to be.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

J-Boo said:


> I suppose the thread format can confuse things too, making it seem like a reply is aimed specifically as a response to a particular other point.
> 
> I'm not arguing your point that if you want a working dog, your best bet it to get a 100% working line dog. I was making a separate point about how one potential benefit of crossing lines could be the expanding of the genetic pool. If you wanted perfect working dogs after such a cross, it would in a way be reinventing the wheel, but IF the gene pool thing was the priority, then that's what you would be looking at. That's all I was saying, not inferring that your argument was wrong.


I understood what you are talking about. My post also said that you would not get a dog that would place high in the show or working disciplines. As you can see, that does not compute with some that are living in the "current". They are comparing only with what is currently going on with the SL/WL and they are comparing at the top performance of the SL/WL as _they exist today_. There is zero acceptance or acknowledgment (with some) that very specific crosses by knowledgeable breeders could be useful in the future - for any reason. 

I think that's why these conversations always turn into black and white absolutes.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

My posts included the caveat that the breeder would have to pay attention to the health of sires and dams, etc, which of course has the bigger impact on the health of the offspring. 

The reason a smaller gene pool lends itself to more problems is that any existing detrimental recessive alleles have a greater potential to end up in a homozygous pair in a gene, thereby getting expressed by the carrier. That's just scientific fact.

You're right that there would be more individual dogs to breed, but what has been suggested is that they have less genetic diversity. You can be completely disparate in the last several generations of bloodlines, but there could still be less diversity in the breed overall.

I have not been reading internet articles and I'm not saying this is a huge problem with GSDs that needs to be addressed right away, only that this person who worked with police k9s said that this was one of the reasons police are overall moving away from the breed and introducing others.

I have absolutely no knowledge of the Belgian Malinois, and never claimed to. I was only saying that IF you wanted to try to improve the gene pool, PERHAPS that would be one possible benefit of crossing lines. That's all.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> I understood what you are talking about. My post also said that you would not get a dog that would place high in the show or working disciplines. As you can see, that does not compute with some that are living in the "current". They are comparing only with what is currently going on with the SL/WL and they are comparing at the top performance of the SL/WL as _they exist today_. There is zero acceptance or acknowledgment (with some) that very specific crosses by knowledgeable breeders could be useful in the future - for any reason.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's why these conversations always turn into black and white absolutes.



Give me some examples. Show me dogs/breeders that are doing this. You're the one speaking in hypotheticals. Can such a breeder exist? Sure. Have I seen one yet? You know the answer to that.

So show me that breeder/breeding program/or at least a dozen dogs that have been produced which are super successful either at the highest levels of sport, or are true working dogs. Since the thread topic is about working dogs, show me those working dogs...


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

On the other hand, if you had said, "Whoever told you that's the reason police aren't relying solely on GSDs anymore is an imbecile," then I wouldn't have been able dispute it, because his word is all my theory was going off of :crazy:


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Actually the thread topic boils down to how "west German working show line German shepherd dogs" is a really convoluted way to market your dogs! That wording would actually imply they are WGSL dogs who work, although they apparently actually breed and sell both West German show AND working lines. Just very unclear wording.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually, there are *some* WGSLs out there working as police K9s. 

Ladylaw mentioned that recently in another thread as well.

Not common though...admittedly.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Actually, there are *some* WGSLs out there working as police K9s.
> 
> Ladylaw mentioned that recently in another thread as well.
> 
> Not common though...admittedly.


I found an example. It would be interesting to see how dogs from breeding programs like this might differ from other showlines with the same background over time.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> So show me that breeder/breeding program/or at least a dozen dogs that have been produced which are super successful either at the highest levels of sport, or are true working dogs. Since the thread topic is about working dogs, show me those working dogs...


To be fair, I think this is quite rare even for WL breeders. I know of many *people* who consistently place at the top level nationally and internationally with their dogs, but only a few breeders offhand who are consistently producing generations of home bred podium dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Kaimeju said:


> I found an example. It would be interesting to see how dogs from breeding programs like this might differ from other showlines with the same background over time.


Unfortunately none of the information listed on that website can be substantiated. I even looked up the sire of that dog on pedigree database, he was there, but the pedigree didn't match the one on the website. Some of the dogs were the same, other's were different or missing.

There is no information on the BSPSDA from a quick google search. Kind of weird when one of the first websites that comes up is that pedigree when you do a google search. So who knows what that even is...and if that claim is true.

The actual dog that the pedigree is for isn't on pdb.com, not a rare thing, but strange considering he's got a website that does list off his supposed pedigree.

You'd think there would be progeny and some information on the line after 1996 (when the sire won the championship) but there isn't...

I know pdb isn't the end all be all source of information on dogs, but I'd consider it a much better source of information than some home made website.

Did you take a look at the rest of that website? Yeah...I wouldn't believe a word that breeder says about any of their dogs...


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Carriesue said:


> Don't listen to this person.
> 
> Granted yes if you want to compete in high level and have the odds in your favor a working line is the way to go, my next dog will be a full working line I get it.
> 
> ...


 
Im going to go out on a limb and guess your perception of "amazing" and mine are vastly different.

Its real simple, you breed for generations with a primary goal being pigment, movement and other cosmetic concerns you end up with a dog that engenders those qualities.

You breed dogs for strength of character, drive, intensity, nerve and other working qualities you will end up with dogs that engender those qualities. There form will ofcourse differ from the latter category of dogs because of a ground breaking concept. FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION.

If you know anything about breeding you know that changes in relation to structure can occur quickly and are more easy to manipulate. Character and drive is more difficult and take generations to set and is very easy to lose. 

Again, not a new concept, the hunters have the same split we do in retrievers and pointers. The sled dog folks have known this too and their dogs are vastly different then the show line Huskys.

Bottom line is we can type about this till kingdom come. Until you get out to different working clubs, own and work multiple dogs, do some helper work, and really put regular effort in taking a dog from 0 to his or her full potential it will all just be theoretical. 

Again, if your only goal is to title then your goals are vastly lower then if your goal is to compete or breed. Many dogs of substandard quality can title.

Another important thing to remember is there are exceptions to every rule...or must I post the Retriever doing IPO video again... Yes there is a very minute number of SLs and crosses that can do work, and no, that doesnt change anything...


Another myth that I am seeing perpetuated here is that Malinois are better in the work because of all the "inbreeding" in GSDs. 
Not true, Malinois are intensly inbred. Its simply that they in bred on working quality dogs not dogs that had pretty structure.

This is the pedigree of a world level competitor and stud Malinois
http://en.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/965073/Ebor-ot-Vitosha Nice linebreeding through Turcados.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Max there's a breeder in PA I think that has been recommended by some of our WL breeders on the site as having SLs that do work. Owner of the kennel is LEO k9 handler. 

Can't remember the name of the kennel at the moment....

Still, To be clear I am NOT arguing with the larger point here.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Max von Stephanitz said: "If the dog is not a working dog - he is not a German Shepherd". Germany keeps and applies this criteria to all GSDs. All Show dogs must pass Schutz 1, 2, and 3 tests. There is no really any difference between Show line and Working line in general, just some breeders specialize in breeding ,show dogs, other in sport dogs, some Police dogs, some Army dogs, some SAR dogs, therapy dogs, and so on. Sirius Dog


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Actually, there are *some* WGSLs out there working as police K9s.
> 
> Ladylaw mentioned that recently in another thread as well.
> 
> Not common though...admittedly.


That was the case with my dog's Grand Sire on his Sire's side. Hausmekon's Teton Pass was a WGSL and was a K9 officer for our Sheriff's Department. But he may be a cross. I'm not sure.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> Max von Stephanitz said: "If the dog is not a working dog - he is not a German Shepherd". Germany keeps and applies this criteria to all GSDs. All Show dogs must pass Schutz 1, 2, and 3 tests. There is no really any difference between Show line and Working line in general, just some breeders specialize in breeding ,show dogs, other in sport dogs, some Police dogs, some Army dogs, some SAR dogs, therapy dogs, and so on. Sirius Dog


 You are kidding right ? :smirk:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> That was the case with my dog's Grand Sire on his Sire's side. Hausmekon's Teton Pass was a WGSL and was a K9 officer for our Sheriff's Department. But he may be a cross. I'm not sure.


:thumbup:

Nope not a cross that I can see, going back 5 generations looks all WGSL.

Hausmekon's Teton Pass

.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> That was the case with my dog's Grand Sire on his Sire's side. Hausmekon's Teton Pass was a WGSL and was a K9 officer for our Sheriff's Department. But he may be a cross. I'm not sure.



For my own knowledge, any proof of this beyond what your breeder said?

It's rare that someone enters a dog on pedigree database and skips the part about them being a police dog...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> For my own knowledge, any proof of this beyond what your breeder said?
> 
> It's rare that someone enters a dog on pedigree database and skips the part about them being a police dog...


I knew that you would question this. The information didn't come from the breeder. It came from from someone who owns a sibling of my pup (same sire) as found through PDB (Jack the Ripper XXXIII). I have contacted them via Email asking them for a way to document this. They named our County as being the one where the dog worked so it would easy to verify if I can get the name. I could contact the Sheriff's Dept to see if "Teton" rings a bell, but what are the odds he worked under that name? We will see if they respond, or maybe they'll just post here directly as I gave them the name and post topic of this site. 

On the Hausmekon website, there is mention of one of their line also having served as an officer for the Seattle PD. They also mention having several dogs that have become service dogs though the decades. It appears their primary interest is in sheep and cattle herding.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*

Don't take it personally, I always question that stuff. In general, police dogs aren't allowed to be used for breeding. They usually don't have certified pedigrees, which makes them useless at some level to a breeder as without a certified pedigree, none of the pups can be registered and so you can't continue that line.

Your dog also doesn't look very west German. I don't know where you got your dog, but the "they're out of a police dog" is a very popular line used by breeders to market dogs. At the end of the day, this is very hard to verify, and most people aren't going to contact police departments to figure out if what the breeder is saying is true. Since all your information is also at this point very circumstantial...hard for me to believe until I see the proof. I also get that you weren't the one that was told that, it was someone else, but that just means a different breeder with that sire in the pedigree might be peddling that lie...

We've had people come on this website claiming both of their dogs parents are K9s, yeah...a female police dog that's intact. That would happen...then they get all angry when you tell them that more than likely they've been had.

Take a look at the website that the other person posted, just simple google searches of any of the claims that are made on that site don't bring anything up. Weird in this day and age that associations and organizations don't have at least a simple, hastily made website...

Lots of ways to fact check the claims people make...especially when they're selling something.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Don't take it personally, I always question that stuff. In general, police dogs aren't allowed to be used for breeding. They usually don't have certified pedigrees, which makes them useless at some level to a breeder as without a certified pedigree, none of the pups can be registered and so you can't continue that line.
> 
> Your dog also doesn't look very west German. I don't know where you got your dog, but the "they're out of a police dog" is a very popular line used by breeders to market dogs. At the end of the day, this is very hard to verify, and most people aren't going to contact police departments to figure out if what the breeder is saying is true. Since all your information is also at this point very circumstantial...hard for me to believe until I see the proof. I also get that you weren't the one that was told that, it was someone else, but that just means a different breeder with that sire in the pedigree might be peddling that lie...
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, however, as far as any Sheriff's Dept website, I'm not surprised there's a lack of information. Our County is small and sparsely populated (North Idaho by the Canadian Border) and our County Sheriff's department has not had their own dogs for more than 15 years or so. They still share a bomb dog with Spokane as needed and most of their search & rescue is done by mounted possee and volunteer dog search teams. 

I have no reason to doubt the information. I worked for the County for 15 years myself. I don't feel they would be put out at all if I were to give them a call to verify this, but I think they'll need the "working" name which is what I am trying to obtain from the owner of the related dog. If I can get that, hopefully they can pass along my name and number to have the officer contact me. In my experience, they like to talk about their dogs. In my previous conversations with them, I could not believe the hours of constant refresher training they spend with their dogs every week. 

Are you talking about the Hausmekon German Shepherd website? I think it's pretty thorough. Do you also question that they had a dog working for Seattle PD? They seem to have all the credentials that you normally require so as not to call them "uneducated". They have been a very well known GSD breeder for many years here in the Northwest. 

As you know, I am a novice and am trying to learn. My dog is a cross and a pet. My interest is in the bloodlines that I can trace back via PDB and for curiosity sake only. 

Have you checked out the other references to working SL or crosses mentioned here, or am I just the "lucky" one?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm talking about the one kaimeju posted, looked at it. Take a a look yourself. Tried to look some of those claims up...came up dry. Looked at the website as a whole, wouldn't trust that breeder as far as I could throw them. Makes me think the claims made about the line of dogs aren't true...

There weren't anymore posted. I know a few SL dogs that work. I think Huerta even placed one at some point. The city south of me has a SL dog that I believe is a drug search dog, they have others for apprehension. But in regards to percentages, they are so small...way less than 1%. Which is exactly why police departments and working dog people aren't going to risk anything with SL in it. When you get a puppy at 8 weeks, you want to have all the cards stacked in your favor. You don't want to take the risk that this is going to be the 1 out of 100000 SL dogs that turns into a K9.

That's exactly the reason why you won't see WL breeders taking the chance on mixing SL into their stock. Your chances for putting that dog into a highly competitive sport home, or a real working role, greatly decrease.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Pretty much anything you read online is subject to being bunk, this forum included. PDB has plenty of errors in it, too. Unless you are looking at primary sources, assume it could be false.

Duncan has some show line dogs in his pedigree way back that were purportedly PSDs. Calgary has their own breeding program which is where those dogs come from. Can I *prove* that with primary sources? No. Why would I have info from the Calgary PSD in the early 90's on hand? It doesn't really matter to me anyway because that wasn't the part of his pedigree I cared most about. 

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is any more except to rehash the old "show lines can't do real work" argument.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

*


Kaimeju said:



Pretty much anything you read online is subject to being bunk, this forum included.

Click to expand...

*


Kaimeju said:


> PDB has plenty of errors in it, too. Unless you are looking at primary sources, assume it could be false.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what the point of this thread is any more except to rehash the old "show lines can't do real work" argument.


Really. :laugh::crazy:


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Well, an interesting discussion. I guess my perspective is that one of the great things about GSD is that there continues to be a subset of GSD owners that are interested in working their dogs (either is Schutzhund/Ringsport, SAR, herding, or as actual police dogs), together with a group focused more on the show ring. And that even with the show ring, there is a minimum working requirement (at least with WGSL dogs).

And because of those interested in the sport side of things, there continue to be breeders that are focused almost exclusively on the working qualities of a dog. Also, because working and show lines tend to look pretty different, it's not hard to distinguish the two. 

There don't seem to be a lot of other dog breeds where there is a subgroup very focused on working qualities, particularly a broad range of working qualities, rather than simply the ability to retrieve ducks or catch rats.

What I do worry about is the extent to which the growing popularity of WLGS's will potentially dilute these lines. There seem to be a growing number of breeders who sell dogs that look like WLGS's , and are advertised as such, but that don't really title them in Schutzhund or do other work with them. Moreover, I suspect that most people who buy these dogs don't have plans to work them. I suppose the appeal is that the owners want to believe that, if they were willing to put in the effort, there dogs could be schutzhund superstars. But as we get 1, or 2, or 3 generations from dogs that have actually accomplished anything in the sport, I fear that this is becoming less and less true.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

At one point, a couple of us were speculating about the FUTURE of the breed and what possibilities that held. One part focused on improving the health issues possibly by Xing the lines simply to enlarge the genetic pool. 

Talking about current situation always seems to bring the same old argument. Even when you reiterate in posts that the thoughts are about the future possibilities apparently the battle cry has been sounded. Some are not able to relax enough to consider what may be best for the breed overall down the road. So many specialties, and so many pet owners who really don't care about the specialties, they just know they have a great dog for their family.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> At one point, a couple of us were speculating about the FUTURE of the breed and what possibilities that held. One part focused on improving the health issues possibly by Xing the lines simply to enlarge the genetic pool.
> 
> Talking about current situation always seems to bring the same old argument. Even when you reiterate in posts that the thoughts are about the future possibilities apparently the battle cry has been sounded. Some are not able to relax enough to consider what may be best for the breed overall down the road. So many specialties, and so many pet owners who really don't care about the specialties, they just know they have a great dog for their family.


Feel free to avoid passive aggressiveness and just use people’s names, it’s not very hard to figure out who you’re talking about.

I asked the question, why would introducing different lines cause healthier dogs? You seem to have all this experience with the breed, you have seen hundreds of dogs, I’d love to know where the idea that introducing a SL into a WL pedigree will cause better health? I’m also wondering what kind of health issues you’re talking about. Is it HD, DM, something else? Can you provide health statistics that show SL is healthier than WL? Or vice versa? Is there any data out there showing that mixing lines will cause healthier dogs?

What specialties? Have you even seen specialties? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about when you talk about show dogs and working dogs? I get it, you’ve argued the point before. You’re a pet owner. You just want whatever dog Jim Bob down the street has bred. Trust me, those dogs will always be there for you. Those dogs are also not the dogs that will ever be police dogs, service dogs, or the dogs that have gotten this breed the reputation which has more than likely led you to want one. Please tell me how based on YOUR experience, why these “specialties” can’t be great family pets? There are tons of people on this forum that have gotten dogs from breeders that either breed for show or work and those dogs are regular members of the household and don’t do anything special. Why do you think that those types of breeders can’t produce this magical great family dog you speak of?

As far as I recall…it is you who looked and purchased a specialty GSD…

Crossing lines is not a new thing. People have been doing it for decades. It hasn't caught on for a reason...has nothing to do with today, or tomorrow. It's been tried. It still goes on. The dogs are bred, they're forgotten, and they might exist in a pedigree here or there. Those dogs haven't had much of an affect on the breed.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Well, I've got no dog in the various arguments that seem to have erupted in this thread (both figuratively and literally). I've owned two WGSL dogs and neither my current dog or my last one would have excelled in Schutzhund. 

Current GSD does come from a long line of herding dogs on mother's side (Kirschental) and mother has a herding title. But he lacks the intensity or drives to excell in the sport. He does, however, have a rock solid temperment, gets along well with other dogs and people and is environmentally sound. In short, he makes a great pet.

I sometimes wonder about the bias that seems to be developing towards WLGS's, at least in this forum if not in the larger world. It's like deciding to buy a Porsche rather than a mini-van because it's faster, handles better, is sexier and more fun to drive and it keeps winning awards from Car and Driver. It doesn't really work if you happen to be a middle aged Dad with 4 kids who needs a car to take the kids to soccer practice, car-pool, etc. The Porsche may be an objectively better car, but it is not a better car for you.

I am concerned the same thing isn't happening with GSD's. People decide they want a WL dog because they're objectively "better" than a SL. Yes, they bring tremendous focus and intensity to any job they are asked to do. They have to be strong and agile. They are "real" dogs that don't just see the sleave as another toy and therefore make better guard dogs/family protectors. Because they are bred for work they supposedly don't have health problems. 

While all of these supposed benefits of WL (except maybe the health claim) may actually be true, does that make them a better pet for most GSD owners? Probably not. The truth is that only a tiny fraction of GSD owners do Schutzhund, herding, SAR, police work, etc. with their dogs. The number of people doing Schutzhund that are competitive at the National level is miniscule.

My concern about the effects of this bias is two fold. One, people who buy a "real" working dog may end up with something that is not a good fit for them and that they are not equipped to handle. Two, you are going to begin to get a dilution of the real working dog as breeders begin to breed for a market that want's dogs that look like they are working dogs, and that are advertised as working dogs, but that are watered down versions designed for the non-working dog home.

Oh, and one final comment, the idea that you can somehow cross working line and show line dogs and end up with a hybrid that possesses the best qualities of each is (based on my limited understanding of genetics) not really how it works. You're just as likely to end up with a dog that possesses the least desireable qualities of each parent. If it were that easy, we could create a race of supermen by encouraging nerdy brain surgeons and rocket scientist to mate with athletic supermodels.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

John…the truth is, the argument for the “pet dog” is usually based on money. People don’t want to pay the price that a breeder who breeds high drive, Schutzhund/work prospects charges, and they don’t want to pay the price that the people that focus on shows charge for puppies. I know this, because I was the same way 5 years ago when I purchased my first dog. The question is usually, “where is the $300 dog for the average man?” They’re not doing sport, they’re not doing show, they don’t care about the titles/championships the parents might’ve achieved. Why would they want to pay the $1500+ for a puppy which in their eyes is just as good as the one they could buy for $300. Most people don’t learn the difference until they decide to try to push their dog beyond that “at home” comfort level, or the dog does come down with some sort of genetic disease (but even that is rare as most people that own pets aren’t x-raying for hips anyways). They just want a dog that looks like a GSD so that everyone around them respects their dog due to the reputation the breed has gained over the past century as a working dog.

It’s like you said…most people now want something that looks like a GSD, but is completely watered down and has just enough temperament to not bite Timmy the next door neighbor. There is no need for “real” protection. As long as the dog barks at everything that moves they’re usually very happy with that. There is also that thought process that if the owners wanted to, they could easily train the dog to be a personal protection dog, or tomorrow’s Schutzhund world champion. There is very little understanding of the natural drive needed for certain sport and work. We constantly have people asking on this forum why police departments and military are switching to a different breed…yet at the same time we have people arguing how this breed needs to be turned into a stuffed animal that eats, poops, and plays fetch once in a while.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Which is exactly why police departments and working dog people aren't going to risk anything with SL in it.


OK you know on the whole, we're basically on the same page (even with me being someone that prefers my WGSL dog above all others, and prefers this type...I don't even know why, hard for me to explain...) but I'm not really sure about this. Granted I have only known/trained with a few people actively involved in LE with dogs, but these are not pedigree people. When they want decent working dogs they turn to the brokers they've always used or their depts have always used and I sincerely doubt they know or even care what's actually behind their dogs. The vast majority *are* WL dogs, but I don't agree that they see a "risk" in using a dog that may have some SL behind it and intentionally avoid them. I placed a WL GSD (as a pet) with an ex K9 handler and he probably couldn't tell you which was which of the main types of GSDs if you sat him down in front of the GSDCA GV winner, BSZS Sieger, and WUSV champion and would be the first to admit he neither knows nor cares because when it comes to his job, he would assume the dept and their broker know what they're doing and it's not his job to learn to read pedigrees.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lies...you're right...but then we can just say that the brokers are likely not looking/picking out SL dogs or crosses.

The whole K9 thing is quite convoluted and hard to put your finger on without knowing how most departments get their dogs. The large departments go through brokers, smaller departments buy straight from people that are training dogs particularly for K9 work, and there are some (small minority) that will buy a puppy directly from a breeder. Those that buy a puppy directly from a breeder and then place it somewhere for training are the small minority and that happens very rarely.

You're right that brokers and departments don't care about pedigree...but brokers tend to have relationships with breeders or trainers, who have had success with a certain line of dogs or a certain breeder. There is a lot of trust in the whole system and the system is set up to not change. I believe a breeder on here once said that it takes a lot of dogs to earn a reputation, but just one dog to ruin it. Once you produce one or two wash outs, they move on to the next guy. So somewhere in that chain, from breeder, to broker, to trainer, to end user...you'd have to have someone willing to take a risk, a risk that I don't see as necessary based on the arguments being made in this thread.

BTW...I have no problems with WGSL, or even ASL dogs. Breed/buy whatever anyone wants. I'm just talking about what I see when I'm training with dogs and when I'm going to competitions.

Fun observation I made...this weekend was the AWDF...not a single thread on this forum about it. One of the three major IPO competitions this year and no one said a word about it. Instead, we're discussing what people are having for dinner, akitas, and pretty much anything and everything that has nothing to do with GSDs. Kind of interesting seeing where this forum is headed...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I've just seen a lot of mish-mash LE K9s, I'm not really convinced that THIS is where you are going to find tip top breeding lines or the people who are really invested in *breeding* working dogs. I believe these people are looking for a dog that WORKS, period. They don't care whether the dog is intensely linebred or is a total toss up of lines and types, if it works it works. Good WL breeders are going to be thinking much farther ahead, 2, 3, 4... generations down the road. A dog that is a really nice working dog standing there in person might not be the "best" breeding dog for that program.

The guy I know that actually helped aquire dogs for the dept got them from a broker in Europe...because that's where he's always got them and he likes working with that person. He thinks his dogs are the you know what. I think they are fine for the work they do but are definitely not the best working dogs or best bred dogs I've seen. Also of the multiple dogs I have seen, they are not similar in pedigree either. I have no clue why he likes that broker or where that broker gets the dogs, but the result is nothing like some of the best WL breeders in NA or Europe that a producing more consistent genotype and phenotype.

When I see local articles about LE K9s I'd say the GSDs are about 70/30 WL/SL. It's definitely not "less than 1%". They also have many Mals and Mal/GSD crosses and some of the sniffer dogs are other breeds (Beagles, Labs).

I agree that the process os convoluted and widely varies. My friend who was the K9 handler had no idea what broker his (county) dept used or where the dogs were bred. He said he always wanted to be a handler so he got into that program. They were taken to a kennel for their training. He was shown his dog's kennel and told, this is your dog, go in and get him out. He walked in and his dog tore him open. It sounded like they did a weeklong orientation or something like that, and he came home with his K9. The dog I gave him as a pet was 3/4 WGWL and 1/4 DDR (Lord). He was not at all picky about the size, look, breeding, or even gender of the dog.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Martemchick - good points. I suspect it is like this with a lot of breeds, whether you buy a Poodle or a Pomeranian. Few people are interested in doing dog shows, and there are not a lot of people working Poodles and Pomeranians. They just want a healthy dog for cheap. Of course, what people don't understand is that one of the reasons you buy a pure bred, rather than simply getting a nice rescue dog, is that you want a dog that possesses the traits that attracted you to that particular breed, and you want to increase your chances of getting a healthy dog. That means performing a battery of tests on breeding parents and only breeding dogs that pass these test and appear free from serious defects. You can't do that and sell your puppies for $300.

To me GSD's are special because they were originally created and bred from the inside out. The goal was to get a healthy, athletic, intelligent, highly trainable dog that was corageous and naturally protective. I think the number of dogs that can meet that criteria today (regardless of whether they are ASL, WGSL or WL) is rapidly dwindling. And that ideal is being attacked on all sides. It's not just BYB. It's also SL breeders that ignore health and temperment. And it can even be WL breeders who breed and market their dogs as hard core sports/protection dogs, but end up selling some of their puppies to people who like the idea of a Schutzhund dog, but aren't prepared to do the training and lack the experience to handle some of these dogs.

As someone who tries to do a lot with my GSD and takes him out for hikes on local trails 6 days a week, it depresses me that although we encounter dogs almost every day, in the last year I have run into exactly 1 GSD whose owner told me to stay away from because he was "aggressive". The GSD is supposedly the 3rd or 4th most popular dog, and one that needs a lot of exercise - yet you never see one "in the wild". Sad.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sad reality is most K9 handlers arent exactly experts when it comes to the quality of their dogs or handling. As a broker you have to be careful to not bring in anything to challenging. 
Forgiving dogs that are sufficiently resilient to handle some abuse with enough drive for the work but not too much. Either non pedigree WLs, Mals, Malx or Sport washouts. Thats 99% of what you find available for import. 

I have seen a few WL/SL crosses in LE or even a very few WGSL..its not something I would import unless I really trusted my contact and the vids were steller. 

I have seen Police K9s that are of very low quality and many more that I would not consider breed quality. Not a rare thing when some of these dog sections know nothing about assessing quality and are vulnerable to unscrupulous vendors.

As for breeding absolutely not. Just look at Lubeck von der Mahler Meister, good dog in his own right but when it comes to breeding he has not done well. He was sold across the pond and has had very few breedings here because of the SLs a few generations back in his pedigree. 
You would not inject that weakness into your bloodline unless you have nothing there to begin with.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

then there is the thing that many breeders have dogs that would make great LEO K9's but don't want their pups placed in a situation where they may be treated as equipment, passed around often or worse. If the depts program speaks for itself, then it would be a possibility, but many are running on shoestring budgets and don't have the proper training, safety equipment set up in the vehicle or vests for their K9's. 
I know a longtime MSP breeder, he is knowledgeable about pedigree matching, did all the training for and with his teams and isn't into selling to the sport crowd...so I guess it works both ways. He does IPO too...but his working K9 prospects have very little obedience on them compared to the sport dogs he works.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

John C. said:


> As someone who tries to do a lot with my GSD and takes him out for hikes on local trails 6 days a week, it depresses me that although we encounter dogs almost every day, in the last year I have run into exactly 1 GSD whose owner told me to stay away from because he was "aggressive". The GSD is supposedly the 3rd or 4th most popular dog, and one that needs a lot of exercise - yet you never see one "in the wild". Sad.


I think they are way more popular in some locales than others. They are not that popular around me either. In our urban neighborhood I know of only two others about 4 blocks away (I manage a neighborhood pet registry) and 2 "King Shepherds" on the corner at the end of my street. They don't often pop up in shelters here, and my friend who has a rescue for this area of the state is often getting dogs from shelters in CA, doing fundraising to bring them here to be adopted. They seem to be a dog that is very recognizable yet not as popular as we would think in some areas. I am OK with that since they are not the dog for everyone.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Feel free to avoid passive aggressiveness and just use people’s names, it’s not very hard to figure out who you’re talking about.
> 
> 
> Why do you think that those types of breeders can’t produce this magical great family dog you speak of?
> ...


For the 6th or 7th time, I will explain it to you again. You are lucky I have so much patience with you. It is only because you are in your "baby years" of being an adult. Your perspective is based solely on what was, or what currently is. The conversations you have barged into with your "cant's, "never will be's" that were simply speculating about the future of the breed with the modern day knowledge and genetic ability that we have, and much of that will advance rapidly in the future.

You go by what you know and what your have experienced. I look to what is possible in the future. Did you see the post 2 weeks ago from a very concerned, very highly credentialed genetics engineer who cut her baby teeth at MIT? It was a small little post, she was very concerned with some "experiments" that are being performed in the US specifically, but worldwide also with human stem cell DNA and mice. She provided a link and she was gone. That link, .....and what I read on the USA page where papers are published on tests the are conducting made me want to vomit. 

If you don't the future is any diferent than the current or the past, you my friend are living with your ass up and your head buried in the ground. 

What would your thoughts be, if you were shown, what's really known about genetics in any species and how it can be manipulated? For goodness sakes, we may have a walking breathing healthy Mammoth here within a few years. What makes you so reluctant to look to the future? That's all the conversation was about before you jumped in, as you always do and said "can't", can't, can't. 

It's amazing, you are 20/21 years old, I am 60, and I have more of a grasp on the future genetics field than you do? Did you know, that roughly 40% of our cutting edge cures for human disease came in just the last 8 years? You need to educate yourself and get out of the past. The new GSD is coming and he won't look or act like your specialized dog.... he will blow you away with his looks and abilities....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Thank you for gracing me with your patience. Yet with all that experience you didn't answer a single one of my questions about the breed, genetics of GSD, ect.

Talk about mice and mammoths all you want. I like to discuss German Shepherd Dogs on this forum. It's hard to do that with people that even after 6 decades have extremely limited knowledge and experience with the breed and like to talk about it with those of us that are taking an active role in improving the breed. The dogs you speak about aren't going to be made in a lab, they're out there proving themselves and being bred naturally by people that care and have a lot more knowledge than you do about what really matters when it comes to the breed.

Have fun with you dog, maybe one day you'll get to the point where you can take a bone away from her without her growling and ripping your hand off. My "specialized" dogs don't do that...must be something special you look for in yours. Maybe your breeder should've made an effort to put temperament and nerve before size and "mixing lines for the future."


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Thank you for gracing me with your patience. Yet with all that experience you didn't answer a single one of my questions about the breed, genetics of GSD, ect.
> 
> Talk about mice and mammoths all you want. I like to discuss German Shepherd Dogs on this forum. It's hard to do that with people that even after 6 decades have extremely limited knowledge and experience with the breed and like to talk about it with those of us that are taking an active role in improving the breed. The dogs you speak about aren't going to be made in a lab, they're out there proving themselves and being bred naturally by people that care and have a lot more knowledge than you do about what really matters when it comes to the breed.
> 
> Have fun with you dog, maybe one day you'll get to the point where you can take a bone away from her without her growling and ripping your hand off. My "specialized" dogs don't do that...must be something special you look for in yours. Maybe your breeder should've made an effort to put temperament and nerve before size and "mixing lines for the future."


Again, you are only focused on what you know from the past and present. If you had not selectively chosen certain sentences about my dog's little growl the other day, you would know that she's coming into her first heat. I have taken her bones away yesterday and today, as I have in the past 4 months, she's just fine in the last 2 days. She had a strange 2 days and was back to being just fine, but you ignored all those posts.

Rest assured, she wont be "ripping my hand off". Calm down little man, once again, I urge you to look to the future. At your age, you will see some amazing things in genetics, cures for illnesses and elimination of some very deadly illnesses in dogs and humans. I envy what you will be here to see.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Thank you for gracing me with your patience. Yet with all that experience you didn't answer a single one of my questions about the breed, genetics of GSD, ect.
> 
> Talk about mice and mammoths all you want. I like to discuss German Shepherd Dogs on this forum. It's hard to do that with people that even after 6 decades have extremely limited knowledge and experience with the breed and like to talk about it with those of us that are taking an active role in improving the breed. The dogs you speak about aren't going to be made in a lab, they're out there proving themselves and being bred naturally by people that care and have a lot more knowledge than you do about what really matters when it comes to the breed.
> 
> Have fun with you dog, maybe one day you'll get to the point where you can take a bone away from her without her growling and ripping your hand off. My "specialized" dogs don't do that...must be something special you look for in yours. Maybe your breeder should've made an effort to put temperament and nerve before size and "mixing lines for the future."


You may think I sit around and pull stuff of the internet to form my beliefs. I can assure you, that is not the basis for my comments.

Two members of my immediate family spent their careers working for the DOD. I cannot and will not try to explain to you, a layman, what technology exists today, nor do I want to know). All I know is that even for those family members to be able to stay at our house, we had to pass level 5 DOD clearance. We are free from that now as they are retirement age. I will say, that the post from 2 weeks ago may get that woman's ass in a wringer as she is surely working at some capacity for the DOD. The topic, was regarding the introduction of human brain stem cells into lab mice. They watched the frontal cortex grow to triple it's normal size (for you, that's the human thinking reasoning part of the brain that they put into the mouse).

Her call was - this has crossed a line-. 

The DOD is fitting Mals and GSD's with titanium teeth. Their scoping them, fitting them with all the latest tech (inside too). Look to the future - you will find an amazing GSD.

I'm only posting this, to try to explain how far you and I are apart on our conversations. I look to the future - you are stuck in the past.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm....yet again???








To soon??


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I wonder if these wonder dogs will be SLs..lol.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*

Again...your posts have nothing to do with GSD, the genetics, breeding, or working drives. You just keep proving how little you do know about the subject by trying to show off what other people have achieved in a completely separate subject. Fancy...

Even got your buddy chip involved. People are trying to actually have a conversation and you two just need to come in and do things that lead to the thread being shut down. If it doesn't interest you, stay out of it, go enjoy your dog, train it to do something, maybe then you'll understand what the rest of us see and know about GSD.

Here's a tidbit that none of your level 5 people know...malanois have a propensity to break teeth. Either their teeth aren't that strong, or due to their lack of full genetic grip, the dog will have a very weak grip and would be torn off the sleeve or bite suit (more likely on bite suit as its a softer material and the teeth tend to get stuck in it). Due to this, the tooth gets stuck, dog gets swung, dog breaks tooth. If the dog had a full grip...one where the back molars are actually holding the object rather than the canines, the dog wouldn't break its teeth. This is something reputable, working breeders breed for. A full genetic grip. It's cool how I didn't need to use the achievements of others to gain that information, just little "young" me, working dogs and getting out there to learn for myself. Not listening to people that actually have zero working knowledge of dogs and are just spreading stupid "did you knows?" Because they read it or heard it somewhere.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Seems like this thread has gone a little off track. The irony is that I think both of you make valid points. On the one hand, there have been genetic advances that are already having an impact on the breed. For example, some breeders are starting to test for DM and hopefully this will eventually become standard practice. Maybe some day they will be able to identify genetic markers for HD. How great would that be? So yes, science and genetics can certainly help us improve the health of the breed.

However, I think Martemchick's perspective, as someone who seems to have experience in Schutzhund, is that ultimately, there's no substitute working a dog on the field to understand his strengths and weaknesses. No genetic test can substitute for a trained eye evaluating the dog while it is working. And I don't think we'll ever see the day where can order up a dog, customize his size, weight, color, drives, and temperment, and then have an Amazon drone deliver the puppy to your door.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

John C. said:


> Seems like this thread has gone a little off track. The irony is that I think both of you make valid points. On the one hand, there have been genetic advances that are already having an impact on the breed. *For example, some breeders are starting to test for DM and hopefully this will eventually become standard practice.*
> 
> However, I think Martemchick's perspective, as someone who seems to have experience in Schutzhund, is that ultimately, there's no substitute *working a dog on the field to understand his strengths and weaknesses*.


the test for DM is somewhat controversal....

depends on who is working the dog, whether or not they are putting pressure on the dog or helping the dog to achieve points thru repetitive routines. 

There are many dogs that earn titles that can be run off the field if they actually had some pressure put on them, but there is no reason to do that in IPO.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Good WL breeders are going to be thinking much farther ahead, 2, 3, 4... generations down the road. A dog that is a really nice working dog standing there in person might not be the "best" breeding dog for that program.


I'm not sure how a breeder can really do that...a generation takes a minimum of 2 years. If you're thinking 4 generations ahead, what you're saying is that you're GOING to breed the puppy you held back no matter what it shows you. You also don't really know what studs will be available at the time that will either fit into your breeding program, or balance out/bring in something that you'd want in your future generation.

I think they should definitely be thinking ahead, knowing what they want in the future...but until they see that dog on the field, I'm not sure how they can make the decision to breed it or not. If they've already made up their mind that they'll be breeding the dog based on pedigree alone, no matter what the dog shows them on the field, it's not right in my opinion.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

there are breeders that are breeding 3 generations and not going thru the alphabet after 12 yrs of breeding. Proof of the program when you see longevity, achievements and selective breeding, not just breeding to breed. It shows the commitment on producing the best dogs possible and the passion for the breed, not the greed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> there are breeders that are breeding 3 generations and not going thru the alphabet after 12 yrs of breeding. Proof of the program when you see longevity, achievements and selective breeding, not just breeding to breed. It shows the commitment on producing the best dogs possible and the passion for the breed, not the greed.


Yeah, I'm not saying a breeder can't breed multiple generations, they should be. But the idea that they're doing a breeding today, and also knowing which stud they'll be using 3 generations after this breeding irks me. They have some idea what the puppies will turn out like, but they don't know exactly, and when they work that puppy they'll figure out what kind of stud they want to use for their next generation if that puppy is breedworthy and to bring something new into their lines or to balance out something they don't like. You always need to look at the dog in front of you before making any kind of breeding decision, can't just base it all on pedigree.

So the part about knowing what you're doing 4 generations down doesn't make much sense to me...just shows me the breeder is probably not too worried about the abilities of the current dogs in front of them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

who said they'd know which stud they'd be using? There are dogs with certain pedigree's that will compliment their lines, so those may be kept in mind, observing over the years of what is produced. Nothing wrong with that if you do understand pedigree matching....and are being selective regardless. But then l am talking about working lines, not showline breeders, so my posts are probably off this topic


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> But then l am talking about working lines, not showline breeders, so my posts are probably off this topic


 Either way your posts would be off topic...unless you're discussing what Jim Bob is doing down the street or what Dr. Nefario is doing in his secret military lab.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

so l'll bow out of this thread, then....


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Either way your posts would be off topic...unless you're discussing what Jim Bob is doing down the street or what Dr. Nefario is doing in his secret military lab.




How is it off topic? You replied to Lies and said that breeders can't really look 3-4 generations down the road. Sure they can. Not all breeders focus on the popular podium dog to use as a stud. Some look at certain lines and traits that they follow. If they do their do diligence, then chances are the puppy they are holding back will fit what they are trying to produce.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> How is it off topic? You replied to Lies and said that breeders can't really look 3-4 generations down the road. Sure they can. Not all breeders focus on the popular podium dog to use as a stud. Some look at certain lines and traits that they follow. If they do their do diligence, then chances are the puppy they are holding back will fit what they are trying to produce.


Lol...that was a joke.

I'm not talking about the podium dog. If you just consider the years a generation is, it's at best 2 years (minimum for hips + titling). So let's assume that the breeder does breed at 2 each time, 3 generations is 6 years. So if you have a certain dog in mind, or even a certain line (usually means linebreeding), 3 generations later, that dog is probably too old to be bred, then you’ll go to one of his offspring…but that offspring brings in a whole other set of genetics and that linebreeding is probably even further off. And sure…if the offspring is everything you hoped for that’s fine, but we all know that it’s not always the case that a certain stud or bitch will reproduce themselves exactly how you might want it.

I’m not saying you can’t be thinking into the future…but to breed a dog today, expect X, and also plan on breeding X to Y because X + Y is going to give you the desired result doesn’t make much sense when X is an unknown and Y might not be available by then or not work out the way you want it to anyways.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> I'm not sure how a breeder can really do that...a generation takes a minimum of 2 years. If you're thinking 4 generations ahead, what you're saying is that you're GOING to breed the puppy you held back no matter what it shows you. You also don't really know what studs will be available at the time that will either fit into your breeding program, or balance out/bring in something that you'd want in your future generation.
> 
> I think they should definitely be thinking ahead, knowing what they want in the future...but until they see that dog on the field, I'm not sure how they can make the decision to breed it or not. If they've already made up their mind that they'll be breeding the dog based on pedigree alone, no matter what the dog shows them on the field, it's not right in my opinion.


You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about looking at a puppy and deciding right then and there who to breed it to, I'm talking about a breeder having a goal for their program that transcends individual dogs. What do they like in temperament, size, looks, etc? I see this a lot with the sport breeders I know (I'm talking about sport DOGS, not GSD breeders). I know a guy whose wife bred a litter almost 3 years ago (and she had owned, trained, and bred the sire and dam). He picked the best puppy from that litter for himself knowing down the line what type of dog he hoped to breed her to, assuming health/temperament/titles checked out. She was bred last year and now he has another puppy from that litter who is like his ultimate goal. He actually picked the one he didn't like the looks of, but had the temperament, physique, and drive he wanted as his end goal. So we are already talking about 3 generations here, carefully planned at each step. He knew what he wanted when I first met him years ago, and now he has it. I see the same thing in some of the GSD breeders I know. I'll just throw out Lisa for example since we know her here. I find that her program produces a consistent type in look and temperament. She knows what she wants and doesn't want. I believe she is always thinking ahead down the line, looking at studs that might work with her program. I doubt she waits until she has a dog that is completely titled and health tested to fully decided whether to breed that dog and start looking for studs. That happens all the time, and if the bitch washes out or has a health problem, then that's a big loss but not something you wait around for. I also see this in some of the programs that have *successfully* and carefully implemented drastic outcrossing. I know someone who did a WL/WL breeding to produce a female that would be a great compliment for a certain WGSL male and then the offspring of THAT breeding would be bred back to WL. This would cut off some of the more severe backmassing in both the WL and WGSL, bring in some genetic diversity but assuming the WL/WGSL cross is successful based on the stud that was chosen (and so far it looks to be...), maintain the type the breeder wants.

I do not agree that breeders thinking ahead about their program means they are breeding whatever they have regardless of temperament and health. It's no different than any passion. So say I am passionate about flyball. That means I will do a lot of things and study a lot of things that have nothing to do with *my* dogs. I will attend events even when my dogs aren't competing. I will help teams I'm not a member of. I will do tasks that are not directly related to my dogs. I will study how other teams train and observe how they get the best out of their dogs even if *my* dogs won't be that good. It's not a waste just because my dog washes out or can never be that fast. I love to do it and study it just like a good breeder is always looking out for new studs or playing with pedigrees in their head.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies, you didn't need to bring me into the discussion.  :rofl:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lies, your explanation makes sense. We're all always looking at dogs and seeing what else is out there. So I guess in that sense we are doing the "research" on the next possible dog and what kind of breeding we might be interested in.

I guess my only response to the "breed this to make a great compliment for this other male" is that most people still have a tendency to be somewhat blind about their own breeding, especially when there is a bigger goal ahead of them. They want the dog to work out, so they'll make sure it does. Not saying all breeders do this, but I've seen enough that get pretty kennel blind. I guess I'll never understand doing a breeding "to get rid of backmassing" which IMO isn't as bad as people like to make it out to be. It's not difficult to do breedings that compliment each other (on paper and on the field) which are complete outcrosses and don't have any linebreeding even when using the same genotype. It also doesn't help the consumer IMO because those "in between" generations (in your case it's just the one) are pretty risky.

I'm also trying to stay away from "this one breeder I know" and speak more of what I see going on in general. The majority of crosses I've seen (mostly internet) aren't being done with that high of a goal in mind, I guess most of the time I don't see any goal. I don't see the puppies being that successful at anything, not really seeing them at the highest level of competition, not even seeing them at the club trials (I have a breeder in my area that is crossing on a consistent basis and haven't seen a single one of her puppies at a trial).

I guess when it comes to WORKING dogs, I don't get how introducing something that is inherently weaker into your lines will help you in the long run.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Lies, you didn't need to bring me into the discussion.  :rofl:


LOL sorry! I just had you in mind as someone with a goal, producing consistency 
http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Lies, your explanation makes sense. We're all always looking at dogs and seeing what else is out there. So I guess in that sense we are doing the "research" on the next possible dog and what kind of breeding we might be interested in.
> 
> I guess my only response to the "breed this to make a great compliment for this other male" is that most people still have a tendency to be somewhat blind about their own breeding, especially when there is a bigger goal ahead of them. They want the dog to work out, so they'll make sure it does. Not saying all breeders do this, but I've seen enough that get pretty kennel blind. I guess I'll never understand doing a breeding "to get rid of backmassing" which IMO isn't as bad as people like to make it out to be. It's not difficult to do breedings that compliment each other (on paper and on the field) which are complete outcrosses and don't have any linebreeding even when using the same genotype. It also doesn't help the consumer IMO because those "in between" generations (in your case it's just the one) are pretty risky.
> 
> ...


I initially brought it up in the context of LE/police dogs and where they get them, how they are bred. I said I don't see this sort of thing as something that police dept or police officers tend to focus on, or maybe even care about at all. They buy dogs that work, individual dogs that already exist, "green" dogs with tested temperament and health clearances that make them a good investment for the job they need to perform. Many don't even come with pedigrees or papers even if the dept or officers cares about the pedigree or breeding program. I am not saying these dogs are bad dogs or wouldn't be breeding quality dogs, I said that I think in general the good *WL breeders* (not police departments) are where I would look if evaluating generations of good quality dogs is the criteria (which was mentioned earlier in the thread). That is why if I want a good working dog I would look at certain kennels and not random people who are breeding a dog that "was a police dog". I'm sure we all feel that if we had a dime for every person that said their dog "was a police dog"....yeah


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> How is it off topic? You replied to Lies and said that breeders can't really look 3-4 generations down the road. Sure they can. Not all breeders focus on the popular podium dog to use as a stud. Some look at certain lines and traits that they follow. *If they do their do diligence, then chances are the puppy they are holding back will fit what they are trying to produce*[


I have to disagree with this. I know you and I have both gone through dogs that don't fit what we're looking for, so how can anyone safely assume that the puppy that some breeder decides to hold back will definitely work as a future breeding prospect? If I had based my future breeding program two years from now based on dogs that I have had experience owning/rehoming in the past, and I had actually decided to keep them for breeding use just based on the lines and traits that it "should" follow, I'd just be settling for what I have and sacrificing the actual goals that I had in mind. And what does any "popular podium stud" have anything to do with that?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You know as a whole I too am on the same page as you.

However topics in chat are not demonstrative of the end times for GSDs. (In bold). I think you are taking your argument too far and committing some of the fallacies you note in others.

The reasons that trials are not discussed heavily, nor agility, nor conformation shows for that matter - is myriad and varies from person to person.

In my case I don't have a dog to do IPO with. So I focus on other things. I do read but usually have nothing to add because I'm not actively involved. Others are interested in SAR or agility so they don't comment or follow IPO either. 

Ultimately it is true that most people want a dog for a companion and don't want to show or compete. That's just the way it is in a free market economy.

That does not (nor the existence of the chat subforum) equal the demise of the GSD. Hyperbole is not your friend. Just sayin....





martemchik said:


> Lies...you're right...but then we can just say that the brokers are likely not looking/picking out SL dogs or crosses.
> 
> The whole K9 thing is quite convoluted and hard to put your finger on without knowing how most departments get their dogs. The large departments go through brokers, smaller departments buy straight from people that are training dogs particularly for K9 work, and there are some (small minority) that will buy a puppy directly from a breeder. Those that buy a puppy directly from a breeder and then place it somewhere for training are the small minority and that happens very rarely.
> 
> ...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

It’s not the GSD breed I’m talking about. It’s this forum. I really don’t care that there are other subjects going on, but Jack’s Dad and others bring it up all the time…a lot of knowledgeable people have left. Why? Just look at this thread…people with experience, who understand working dogs, who understand breeding dynamics, ect, are being told they’re wrong by someone who has owned 2 maybe 3 German Shepherds in their life. Why share knowledge at all then? Look at who’s commenting on this thread…not a single breeder, higher level IPO person, or even law enforcement officer…we have a few of those on the forum and they don’t discuss these things anymore because it gets old arguing with people that don’t have any idea what they’re talking about and constantly trying to tell you how you're wrong and they're right.

Just take a look back and see how many times I was called a name (might not have been a bad one but it was still a negative term used). That’s what happens.

Feel free to discuss whatever subject you like, but then why stick your nose into a subject you know nothing about? Who cares how many mice have been injected with human cells or that they’re injecting elephants with mammoth DNA? What does that have to do with GERMAN SHEPHERDS, their working ability, and the breeding practices?

At the end of the day…most people still believe that they can turn over their AKC papered German Shepherd to a police department and the dog will be on the street tomorrow catching bad guys. There is a huge gap in knowledge when it comes to dog sport and working dogs. Until people try the sport (any sport) they have no idea the work it takes to do it at a higher level and how the genetics of a dog affect that level of success and the ease with which it comes.

It’s also an old story, when you run out of logical and reasonable arguments to make due you your own lack of knowledge, you attack your adversary’s experience and try to discredit them due to something personal (in this case age, its always age) which somehow should make people listen to your reasoning over the other person’s. When that doesn’t work you start making far reaching comparisons that have nothing to do with dogs or dog sport. Remind you of anyone recently?

For those who are interested...I'm not 20 or 21 years of age.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I have to disagree with this. I know you and I have both gone through dogs that don't fit what we're looking for, so how can anyone safely assume that the puppy that some breeder decides to hold back will definitely work as a future breeding prospect? If I had based my future breeding program two years from now based on dogs that I have had experience owning/rehoming in the past, and I had actually decided to keep them for breeding use just based on the lines and traits that it "should" follow, I'd just be settling for what I have and sacrificing the actual goals that I had in mind. And what does any "popular podium stud" have anything to do with that?



Agreed, we have both gone through dogs that didn't fit for us weather it be temperament or health reasons. This is what I'm trying to say. No dog is perfect. That's why in a breeding program so much time is spent in pairing correct? So for this example I will use my dog Kimber. So I plan to breed Kimber sometime in the future. Now I haven't health tested yet so who knows. There are certain aspects of Kimber that IMO she falls a little short. Not horrible, just maybe not exactly what my mental picture is of "perfect". Now I have a stud in mind for her, who excels in the area's that Kimber is lacking, plus he has lots of other good traits to contribute as well. Now there are some things about him that I would change if I could as well. But that's where Kimber excels. So in hopes, they will *balance* each other out. No not every puppy in the litter is going to be the "perfect" balance between the two, but at eight weeks, I should have some idea of drive and temperament. No not as much as say at 18 months but enough to make an educated guess. At 4-6 months I should have an idea of hips and elbows. No not official OFA's but an idea. Now barring any traumatic experiences, raising the puppy correctly and barring any health issues I would assume the puppy would be suitable to continue in my program. Now that doesn't mean the puppy would be suitable in someone else program. Now, I want to take that dog and breed it to another potential stud who follows the pedigree's, lines and dogs that I know produce what or close to what I'm looking for. Again I won't know for sure until the dogs are dogs and I can really see strengths and weaknesses through lots of hard work training, trialing and staying impartial. Now in theory that litter would produce a suitable dog for my breeding program as well that I can bring back to my wifes male to bring my program full circle. That litter would produce dogs line bred on a male that I've worked many progeny and grand progeny out of and I've liked every one of them. Maybe for different reasons, but still liked them all. Some have been world competitors in IPO, some true K-9's, some SAR dogs, service dogs, pets and so on. So there you go, that's my rough 3-4 generation plan. Is it perfect? No there are always unknowns, but it's a goal and a direction that has taken lots of research and thought. I'm not done with it either. Obviously when the time comes to actually find these dogs, and see what they really are, things can change.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just to continue off of what you just wrote…

It’s not a terrible idea…but think of all the variables in there. So Kimber’s puppys…in like 1.5 years or so…then another 2 for them to be of breeding age. And they get bred to something else, which then produces a puppy who you can then breed back to your wife’s male in another 2 years? That’s a lot of time, and you’re still banking on the fact that your wife’s male is going to be the right dog for that bitch at that time (basically 6 years from now) unless I misunderstood and it was going to be Kimber’s puppy you’d breed to the male…which would then be at least 4 years away. On top of all that, since it’s a male that has lived with you, you’ve seen him more than just on the trial field or even training field, you’re going to be partial to him over some other male who might in a more objective space be better suited for the breeding and also bring more to your breeding program.

I guess in regards to thinking 3-4 generations ahead, something new is always coming up. If your goal is to line breed on X, sure, go nuts and that’s definitely a way to think ahead. But that doesn’t always guarantee the best working dog or even the dog that you might want for your breeding program. 5+ years can really change what you look for in a dog. I’m just not really set on planning breeding with dogs that aren’t even born yet…sure pedigree can give you a hint as to what you’ll see, but each time you bring in a dog to a breeding, you’re adding a lot more than just that one to the equation…


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Just to continue off of what you just wrote…
> 
> It’s not a terrible idea…but think of all the variables in there. So Kimber’s puppys…in like 1.5 years or so…then another 2 for them to be of breeding age. And they get bred to something else, which then produces a puppy who you can then breed back to your wife’s male in another 2 years? That’s a lot of time, and you’re still banking on the fact that your wife’s male is going to be the right dog for that bitch at that time (basically 6 years from now) unless I misunderstood and it was going to be Kimber’s puppy you’d breed to the male…which would then be at least 4 years away. On top of all that, since it’s a male that has lived with you, you’ve seen him more than just on the trial field or even training field, you’re going to be partial to him over some other male who might in a more objective space be better suited for the breeding and also bring more to your breeding program.
> 
> I guess in regards to thinking 3-4 generations ahead, something new is always coming up. If your goal is to line breed on X, sure, go nuts and that’s definitely a way to think ahead. But that doesn’t always guarantee the best working dog or even the dog that you might want for your breeding program. 5+ years can really change what you look for in a dog. I’m just not really set on planning breeding with dogs that aren’t even born yet…sure pedigree can give you a hint as to what you’ll see, but each time you bring in a dog to a breeding, you’re adding a lot more than just that one to the equation…


Because things can change in 4, 5, 6 years and you might be biased towards your own dogs, don't have a plan?

So what is your solution?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Because things can change in 4, 5, 6 years and you might be biased towards your own dogs, don't have a plan?
> 
> So what is your solution?


Solution to what? I'm not sure what you're asking.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Solution to what? I'm not sure what you're asking.


To starting up and planning a breeding program.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Because things can change in 4, 5, 6 years and you might be biased towards your own dogs, don't have a plan?
> 
> So what is your solution?


I would think that the solution would be to stay objective to the evaluation of the dogs considered for use in a breeding program, not just assume that the dogs are worth breeding based on the papers behind it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When I was planning the breeding that produced my D litter I was already looking ahead to how I wanted to breed a daughter from that litter. Actually who I wanted to breed her to. I have looked at males and decided that I would like to use them with a daughter of my current female, but not with the female herself. One should always be looking forward beyond the current generation. 

I know, though, that since I did my first breeding in 2003, my goals have changed. The types of dogs I enjoy working has not changed, but my goals as a breeder have. The hardest part for me now is finding suitable males for breeding that will bring balance and will not swing my dogs in a direction I do not want them to go (if that makes sense). I have been lucky, I guess. I have had 7 litters and am now on my forth generation and my fifth should be born next year.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think that you need a goal in mind of what kind of dog you want to produce, not necessarily the exact dogs that will be in the pedigree to produce that type of dog. Especially when you're talking 2 or 3 generations ahead, you can't 100% expect that the puppies you hold back will turn into the types of bitches that you thought would be matches for stud X or stud Y. Many times when we EXPECT a dog to turn out one way, we will look for it to. It's a normal human fault...we want to see aggression in a dog, so when that 8 week old puppy starts barking at the world, we think it's a great guard dog. Or we want those full genetic grips and we forget all about the 4 months we trained the pup to have a full grip by the time the dog is 3.

I think what Jeremy wrote was more of a dream than a goal. You can't really guarantee it's success by doing X, Y and Z. Would it be nice to make that happen? I'm sure it would be, but at the end of the day, the 2 generations between what he has now, and what he plans on breeding to might not happen exactly quite like he would like. Or what if there is a stud out there with all the qualities and more that might be better suited for the bitch at that time and the breeder is still too blind and prefers to use their own dog because they’re so focused on that one goal they set out 6 years ago.

I’m not saying don’t have a goal, but to have such an exact plan, with so many variables involved, it’s interesting, not something I would personally be doing (or am doing).

Can’t stay static in this world. New dogs popping up every month, through domestic breeding and through imports. No reason not to research and look for the best possible match. And sure…if that best possible match happens to be in your own back yard, it’s great. But how often does that truly happen?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

First off, I love the turn this thread has taken. 

Second, I am not a breeder at the moment. I have a desire to start a very small breeding program, probably along the line of Lisa. I like the way she does her program, and no the fact I have one of her dogs(from B litter) dies not impact that. I like the way she works her females, researches the males and has a very clear image where she wants her program to go. That's my goal. 

So I think looking to the future, including generations in the future is important. 

While I do not plan on breeding my current male, I do look at females and think if they would or would not complement him if they were bred. I look at my dogs faults(of which he has plenty) and try to figure out what would be a good match. It helps me learn and evaluate what I am looking at. I helps me learn. 

I think a good breeding program should include not only what's on the ground, but direction from there. Yes things change, new dogs show their stuff, but eyes should always be open to future breedings, even if the right female has not been born. 

So, breeding purposefully to SL dog, that maybe is more moderate in structure, strong character, good work, with a pedigree of the same behind, knowing you will then breed an offspring back to WL to strengthen the work, I don't have an issue with that. But it has to be done with an educated eye and a solid plan. 

As has been said in previous posts, a negligible few breeders achieve dogs that get on regional/national podiums. Can that be a goal. Sure. But I think a good goal is producing solid well built dogs, with nerve and drive that can excel at many things including sport. As few kennels that get dogs on the high podiums, there are fewer competitors that achieve that. And I may get blasted for this, but when I do decide to breed, I hope I breed dogs that do the sport well, but aren't limited to it. And no I am not saying that others are going that route. I just have a clear picture as to the temperament and drive I want to produce. And I look forward to trying, one day. One day.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The longer one is in this game, the less surprises there are. 

BTW, grips are genetic.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

gsdsar said:


> And I may get blasted for this, but when I do decide to breed, I hope I breed dogs that do the sport well, but aren't limited to it. And no I am not saying that others are going that route. I just have a clear picture as to the temperament and drive I want to produce. And I look forward to trying, one day. One day.


My original goal was to make the WUSV team with a homebred dog. After meeting Sam and selling her Belena (Lena) my goals slowly changed. Now, if the only dog doing IPO is the one I keep and the rest go into SAR and detection homes, with the occasional dog like Donovan going into a service home, I will have accomplished what I want. Good, solid, balanced working dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I guess I don't understand the thought process that out of a litter you can't have both. My bitch is out of a litter with a male who's gone to nationals, has also won our regional. The other bitch in my house is definitely going to be at the nationals and giving that make a run for his money at regionals for the next few years. Both of them have a majority of their litter mates in pet homes. There are also plenty in working homes, including a K9.

It's not like the national champion and the podium dogs from the USCA this year aren't from litters where the majority of dogs are in pet homes or lower level working homes. Same goes for all the WUSV competitors. I think that balance is key, but nothing says you can't achieve higher level goals while producing dogs capable of a variety of tasks...most times just depends on the home they're in and what the handler is into.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I haven't read everything thoroughly because I'm still at work. I just want to say, I'm looking at both the paper behind them because that will tell me a lot, but when the time comes I will be looking at the individual dogs just as I'm looking at Kimbers strengths and weakness and planing accordingly. I've already spoke with some people I respect and plan on talking with more knowledge than I. I have a picture of the "ideal" Gsd. I have a general plan of how I think I can achieve it. My advantage is following the lines of the dogs I like. I'm confident that when the time comes I will find males/females suitable to my dogs within those lines. I'm also not done in search of dogs I like. I want to try dogs from many breeders and lines to see what else is out there.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Another question then.

Earlier there was much written about IPO and it's value in determining what a dog does or does not have. If they would be worth breeding. IPO tells you a great deal about the dog in front of you. Temperament, nerve, and many other characteristics.

So how come it's such a bad idea to cross German showlines into a workingline for some diversity? After all most of the German imports are titled, including and especially those black and red show dogs.

Do their titles mean nothing?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

No their titles mean nothing. IPO titles are a baseline not an end point. Many SLs have been given these titles at trials specifically for that purpose. Or there was not even a trial at all..the term rubber stamp comes to mind.

I don't get why there seems to be an assumption that high level sport dogs are all crazy and can't live in the house and preform other functions. 

It seems to me that this myth is spread by many breeders as an excuse for their inability to produce such a dog. It is also perpetrated by the pet crowd via hearsay or their own fundamental lack in handling ability. 
Then you hear such terminology as " I am not interested in producing sport dogs just real dogs", "I want to produce versatility" and other such bs.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

A lot of knowledgeable people have left and others have taken their place. Some left and went to the 'other' place after a split happened here too, a few years back. A lot of people, like yourself, have stayed and gained in knowledge.

As for the forum as a whole, it's driven by traffic because it needs to produce income, hence all the horrible ads and malware. 

So you have to keep that in mind, like with the GSDs it's about money too. There are working dog forums and facebook pages out there that are more specific to working dogs and sport dogs. 

As such this forum will never be more about actual working dogs or IPO or other bite sports (or SAR which is also 'true' work IMO).

It is, however, a good spring board for those who do want to learn and progress. Like me.  

Yes, you get huge credit in my book in that I've never seen you personalize anything. I'm pretty much the same, but you probably won't get much credit from that except from other 'debate' nerds like me.

Do educate people, there are many here who appreciate your posts, don't let it get 'in your head' my friend, O.K.? 

As a wise Admin told me recently, if you don't like it, don't read it....

(p.s. you should have never posted your incorrect age... Now it's in indelible forum ink forever.)



martemchik said:


> It’s not the GSD breed I’m talking about. It’s this forum. I really don’t care that there are other subjects going on, but Jack’s Dad and others bring it up all the time…a lot of knowledgeable people have left. Why? Just look at this thread…people with experience, who understand working dogs, who understand breeding dynamics, ect, are being told they’re wrong by someone who has owned 2 maybe 3 German Shepherds in their life. Why share knowledge at all then? Look at who’s commenting on this thread…not a single breeder, higher level IPO person, or even law enforcement officer…we have a few of those on the forum and they don’t discuss these things anymore because it gets old arguing with people that don’t have any idea what they’re talking about and constantly trying to tell you how you're wrong and they're right.
> 
> Just take a look back and see how many times I was called a name (might not have been a bad one but it was still a negative term used). That’s what happens.
> 
> ...


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No their titles mean nothing. IPO titles are a baseline not an end point. Many SLs have been given these titles at trials specifically for that purpose. Or there was not even a trial at all..the term rubber stamp comes to mind.
> 
> I don't get why there seems to be an assumption that high level sport dogs are all crazy and can't live in the house and preform other functions.
> 
> ...


My GSD's sire was SCH3 titled in the US by the breeder. Are you saying that US titled SL dogs are just "rubber stamped" in the US?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> It’s not the GSD breed I’m talking about. It’s this forum. I really don’t care that there are other subjects going on, but Jack’s Dad and others bring it up all the time…a lot of knowledgeable people have left. Why? *Just look at this thread…people with experience, who understand working dogs, who understand breeding dynamics, ect, are being told they’re wrong by someone who has owned 2 maybe 3 German Shepherds in their life.* Why share knowledge at all then? Look at who’s commenting on this thread…not a single breeder, higher level IPO person, or even law enforcement officer…we have a few of those on the forum and they don’t discuss these things anymore* because it gets old arguing with people* that don’t have any idea what they’re talking about and constantly trying to tell you how you're wrong and they're right.
> 
> Just take a look back and see how many times I was called a name (might not have been a bad one but it was still a negative term used). That’s what happens.
> 
> ...


how many GSD's have you owned? Why do you feel the need to argue, instead of just converse? You have criticized many of my posts, is that because I am not a breeder or trial at the highest levels with goals of podium prestige? 
Whatever happened to the character trait of humbleness? 
Now that we have another forum expert on board, no need to bring back the ones that tire of the boring lengthy wordy posts of those that don't know what the 'ones' have forgotten.

If you were that concerned about the AWDF trial, why didn't you make a thread on it? I kept tabs on it from fb and was happy to see Bridget come in second, but this is a GSD board, so posting the Mals success here wouldn't really matter. 
This board has long been a pet board, the sports are now buried as are the rescue threads, which use to be front and center. FB has changed the way people are conversing, getting updates and sharing....now that the weather has broken, we'll see less and less participation, maybe that is a good thing. Time on the field is never wasted and it is too short a season to argue on message boards, no?


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> how many GSD's have you owned? Why do you feel the need to argue, instead of just converse? You have criticized many of my posts, is that because I am not a breeder or trial at the highest levels with goals of podium prestige?
> Whatever happened to the character trait of humbleness?
> Now that we have another forum expert on board, no need to bring back the ones that tire of the boring lengthy wordy posts of those that don't know what the 'ones' have forgotten.
> 
> ...


 100% agree. I also get curious at actually how "experienced " some people claim to be with how firmly they weigh in. With no way to validate yet they challenge other peoples knowledge. Beauty of the internet. From talk about what WGSL are/are not to judging breeders goals etc..... lots and lots of keyboard warriors. JMHO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> how many GSD's have you owned? Why do you feel the need to argue, instead of just converse? You have criticized many of my posts, is that because I am not a breeder or trial at the highest levels with goals of podium prestige?
> Whatever happened to the character trait of humbleness?
> Now that we have another forum expert on board, no need to bring back the ones that tire of the boring lengthy wordy posts of those that don't know what the 'ones' have forgotten.
> 
> ...


 I agree. 

The times they are a-changing. 

Stop talking about it and get out there and do. 

Maybe it's time for the babe-chicks to go out and make a difference, rather than pissing and moaning about what everyone is doing to ruin the breed. 

What was it that Gwen wrote earlier about focusing on the positives makes it tougher to get bogged down by the negatives. We have choices. We can dislike the top line or the working ability of the breed in general, and we can make our case and take on all comers when it comes to words, at the end of the day, nothing has changed. Why? Because we have been sitting around talking, arguing, blaming, shaming, and so forth, instead of making the first baby steps into improving anything.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. That was me. 

I'm such a trouble maker. :angel:

I think it's good to be passionate about the breed.....but not to the point we are tilting at windmills........


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

My advice for people that want to learn more about GSDs is to get off the computer and go see them in person. Join your local GSDCA club, watch an IPO trial, go to an SV show, an agility trial, whatever, just go out there with an open mind and talk to people. You might be surprised at how much you learn that way rather than by spending your time on YouTube and Facebook. Go do something with your dog if you want to learn more about training and what makes a dog, especially your dog, tick. I find most people are willing to help new people learn, depending of course on the attitude you have.

The showline vs working line thing gets hashed to death online. Again, go out and meet the different dogs before typing away. If I wanted a top competition dog, I would get a working line. This doesn't mean that working lines can't be good pets or that show lines can't work. I love working with my showline not just in IPO but in AKC obedience and agility. We have fun together and he has taught me so much about dogs and dog training in the year I've had him. I've made new friends, discovered new hobbies, and I can't wait to see what we can accomplish together.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

My best working dog ever is a cross. He retired at age 10 (mobility service dog). He turned 11 on Monday.

I had two working line dogs and strongly disliked them both. The first was just insane, the second just was not my kind of dog.

I'd like a nice cross again, if I could find the right one.

My AKC champion American show line bitch is training in herding. We are going for her HT in June, possibly PT in October, and her started titles will hopefully be obtained by the end of 2016.

I am hoping to put a herding championship on her.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Moriah said:


> My GSD's sire was SCH3 titled in the US by the breeder. Are you saying that US titled SL dogs are just "rubber stamped" in the US?


Re read my post.

Feel free to post vids of the dog, since he is IPO 3 I am sure they are out there. It will be an excellent learning opportunity for all of us.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> The longer one is in this game, the less surprises there are.


I think that's the key.. And what some in this thread do not understand!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> how many GSD's have you owned? Why do you feel the need to argue, instead of just converse? You have criticized many of my posts, is that because I am not a breeder or trial at the highest levels with goals of podium prestige?


You're right, I haven't owned that many dogs. But I've gone through many different sports in the short time I've been in the breed, and I also see a lot of dogs at training and at the various clubs I've belonged to. In total, I've interacted with way more GSD in 5 years than the average person will over their entire life. And much more in depth interaction by seeing them train, seeing them just hang out around other dogs and people, ect. Not just walking past them on a walk with my dog.

I didn't criticize your posts, I asked for clarification. It was a confusing post and I wanted to figure out what exactly you were saying.

In regards to arguing, I don't argue. I try to converse. I'm just not going to sugar coat things to make sure someone's feelings don't get hurt because I don't agree with their opinion. At the end of the day, if your feelings get hurt because some stranger on the internet doesn't agree with your opinion, or is able to show how you're wrong due to their experience or the knowledge they have...maybe you shouldn't be on a forum in the first place and just go about living your life without learning more. We've all been taken down a peg when it comes to dogs, be it on this forum or in real life, to me, that is always a learning opportunity, I don't get hurt by new information.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Another question then.
> 
> Earlier there was much written about IPO and it's value in determining what a dog does or does not have. If they would be worth breeding. IPO tells you a great deal about the dog in front of you. Temperament, nerve, and many other characteristics.
> 
> ...


You watch them work. You take a look at HOW the work is performed.

I just listened to the High In Trial podcast where he interviewed Dave Kroyer. Dave works dogs in both IPO and in Mondio Ring. He makes a key distinction between the two sports...in IPO, the performance is subjective and the judge gives points based on how the dog performs the exercise. In Mondio...the performance is goal based, so how the dog does it (speed, enthusiasm, drive) doesn't matter as long as the dog accomplishes the exercise.

So you take those things into consideration, it's how we are able to split the best from the average. There is a reason there wasn't a single show line at the nationals this year...and it doesn't have much to do with handlers, because there are enough amateurs and "weekend warriors" that go to nationals with their dogs just to compete and have that experience. Are they going to win? Probably not, but they are still able to get there. Just have to get a 270 at a trial, and enter a regional. Makes you realize how hard getting 270 is, and how important the dog is in that equation.

So it might not be about the podium, but it does tell you a lot about a dog if it's not able to get a certain score. At least the training gives you a chance to see the dog, and sure, if it's a good dog, just has an inept handler you might consider breeding to that dog. But when we're talking "in general" those dogs are very few and far in between. Trust me when I say...the prejudice and generality wasn't developed online....there's a real world reason behind it.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

A lot of people know how to say nothing, few people know when to.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

EMH said:


> A lot of people know how to say nothing, few people know when to.


Doesn't help with sharing of information and knowledge and the growth of other members.

I know what you're saying though, it's unfortunate. There is a lot of knowledge to be shared, but it gets old trying to share the knowledge and then having it be shot down by people that are busy reading web sites rather than working their dogs...

It's probably society today though...everyone wants to learn something while sitting behind a computer. I've saved hundreds if not thousands of dollars by fixing my car with information I got from forums and YouTube. People want to train their dog the same way...but you just can't get all the information you need about working a dog from a YouTube video...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> You're right, I haven't owned that many dogs. But I've gone through many different sports in the short time I've been in the breed, and I also see a lot of dogs at training and at the various clubs I've belonged to. In total, I've interacted with way more GSD in 5 years than the average person will over their entire life. And much more in depth interaction by seeing them train, seeing them just hang out around other dogs and people, ect. Not just walking past them on a walk with my dog.
> 
> I didn't criticize your posts, I asked for clarification. It was a confusing post and I wanted to figure out what exactly you were saying.
> 
> In regards to arguing, I don't argue. I try to converse. I'm just not going to sugar coat things to make sure someone's feelings don't get hurt because I don't agree with their opinion. At the end of the day, if your feelings get hurt because some stranger on the internet doesn't agree with your opinion, or is able to show how you're wrong due to their experience or the knowledge they have...maybe you shouldn't be on a forum in the first place and just go about living your life without learning more. We've all been taken down a peg when it comes to dogs, be it on this forum or in real life, to me, that is always a learning opportunity, I don't get hurt by new information.


BS....you love to argue...you are now the expert, everyone is lacking in comparison. l'll quote your condescending post to me, nothing in my post was confusing, you just wanted to berate someone once again. 
I don't get hurt feelings, only by someone l respect and trust would affect how l feel.... but do tire of the way you constantly try to undermine everyone who posts on this board. Not everyone has to post their experience, how many dogs they see, etc...respect is earned, and it isn't due posting a resume of experience over and over. 
this conversation was in regards to pattern training, and you seemed to think l didn't know what it was(even though you and l had a pm on fb about this exact thing while chatting about the nationals) 
FWIW, all dogs know the protection routine which is a 'pattern' in itself.... my comments about this is directed to obedience, not so much protection.



> Originally Posted by onyx'girl
> you know this how? l was at a seminar last spring with a very high profile national level competitor and breeder and he pattern trains, he does the same routine to prepare his dog every time he hits the field for each phase so the dog is prepped and understanding what is coming. He also deprives food if the track sucked previously.
> How do you know how all the higher level teams train?
> My own trainer who competes nationally does the pattern often, he cues his dog with subtle body language during his routine. His dog is fine doing a pattern over and over, mine does best not doing it....and less is more when it comes to over training. All dogs are different, one size does not fit all.


-------------------------------------------------------------


> posted by martemchik
> So you pointed out two dogs/trainers, and now everyone does pattern train? Hmmm...you just ruined your own point about "all dogs being different." If those two do it, everyone else must.
> 
> Doing the same routine to prepare your dog for a phase isn't pattern training. Pattern training is what people complain about when all that people do is the obedience pattern they will be doing in the trial, or when the only thing people do in protection is go through the routine in exactly the way it's going to happen during trial. Most people I know will give their dogs cues before the phase so that the dog is in the correct mindset. If you really think that police officers don't do this with dual purpose dogs...well then...but I guarantee you a police officer will cue their dog if they're doing apprehension work, and will cue their dog if they're doing a search. You give your dog any advantage you can, it would be stupid not to.
> ...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You said pattern training was the cue most trainers give their dogs to prepare them for a certain phase. Sorry, the way I've learned it, that's not pattern training. Pattern training as I was taught was teaching the routine. Day in, day out, you do the routine. The obedience routine is engrained in the dog. The trainers I know, doing it on a high level, don't train the whole routine like that and rarely do it. They might do it a few times before a trial, but the last thing they want is their dog anticipating. Same with protection...the highest level people do not do the protection routine. Most people don't even do call outs out of a blind. They don't want their dog anticipating. The routines are broken down into pieces, they work pieces, no need to work the routine just the way the dog will see it in trial.

I wouldn't have to post about how many dogs I've seen if anyone over the age of 50 on this forum wouldn't constantly belittle those of us that are under the age of 30 as if we don't know anything due to our age. It gets old. It's happened for every single year I've been on this forum. It's happened to other people as well. Some of those people, have a ton to offer this forum, but are no longer posting and will not give any training advice anymore because they're tired of the idea that you have to be 60 in order to know anything about dogs.

Respect is earned? No its not. Not on this forum. You and your little friends love to go onto facebook and post negative comments about the rest of us. I'll respect you and your little group the moment you start talking to people and not just behind their backs. Plenty of you had your chance to say something to me when you saw me at nationals...but no, you need the protection of a computer screen in order to say something to someone.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As for playing the 'age card'. That does get old, no pun intended. 

BTW I'm 51 Max and I've had people 5 or 10 years older then me pull the same 'argument'. LOL! 

Ya know. ... Ultimately humans are political critters. We form alliances (for money, protection and for support) and make friendships and it is true that is what will drive perceptions of others.

It's a knee jerk reaction, if you don't like someone, you are far less likely to agree with anything they say, regardless of the validity of the information they provide.

I learned that lesson a long, long time ago. Popularity counts more then performance.

Tribal we are, yes.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> BS....you love to argue...you are now the expert, everyone is lacking in comparison. l'll quote your condescending post to me, nothing in my post was confusing, you just wanted to berate someone once again.
> I don't get hurt feelings, only by someone l respect and trust would affect how l feel.... but do tire of the way you constantly try to undermine everyone who posts on this board. Not everyone has to post their experience, how many dogs they see, etc...respect is earned, and it isn't due posting a resume of experience over and over.
> this conversation was in regards to pattern training, and you seemed to think l didn't know what it was(even though you and l had a pm on fb about this exact thing while chatting about the nationals)
> FWIW, all dogs know the protection routine which is a 'pattern' in itself.... my comments about this is directed to obedience, not so much protection.
> ...


Onyx'girl speaks the truth. The OP and I were posting back and forth about a point he brought up. Your post, he said, was not related to the topic, as he explained to you. He asked that you and he respectfully agree to disagree. My post, he explained was in line with what he was trying to converse about.

And the rest is history. You do repeatedly post long lengthy discourses on how "qualified" you are to speak and how wrong everyone else is. There are many other qualified people who post here also and those of us that are learning choose to learn from them as they are not here to argue and debate, just pass along information. 

Post after post of yours are argumentative, berating and many entirely off topic. It always comes down to you claiming yourself to be the expert and everyone else is just here to exasperate and frustrate you.

It is obvious that you are done learning from anyone that posts here. It is obvious that you don't know how to respect others points of view. The subject the OP and I were discussing has since been brought up by several others with much more experience than we have. If our speculations about the future and Xing lines was so wild and crazy, why to others with more experience also have the same question? Our conversations will not cause the end of the GSD. It's just a board where people can share thoughts, or it should be....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've butted heads with Max on more then one occasion and we've disagreed, but he's never 'berated' me. I've been accused of being a 'big meanie' on this forum too. Only because I've disagreed with a point someone was making, not their entire humanity. Anyhow, this has gotten way off topic IMO and is getting too personal.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

God forbid you have a differing opinion than someone, you're labeled as argumentative. And off topic posts? That'd be a first for this forum!

Oh wait...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Feel free to quote where I said I was an expert.

Stop making things up. Have something real to back up what you say.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well well well , nothing has changed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*

Oooo look who's back!!

The pack must've rang out the signal...

Now we wait for the rest of the minions...

Even better would be if Carmen shared her thoughts on WGSL...


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Pattern training as I was taught was teaching the routine. Day in, day out, you do the routine. The obedience routine is engrained in the dog. The trainers I know, doing it on a high level, don't train the whole routine like that and rarely do it. They might do it a few times before a trial, but the last thing they want is their dog anticipating.


 I have not read any of this thread, but just wanted to comment on this...my club/myself train in the routine. Always. Why? Because my Training Director likes us to. He knows what he is doing, he knows how to help the dogs that are anticipating to continue on, and the results are phenomenal. His dog, trained in that way, got 90 in obedience at the WUSV in 2013. I find the method to work well.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My future TD also trains routine. It works for many of our WUSV members (my future TD being one of them). I find it boring as can be so I rarely do, but it works for many. Of course this is WAY off topic. 

BWT, ADMIN hat on. The snide personal attacks will stop. We can disagree and argue, but little comments like the following serve no purpose and do not further the discussion. 



> Oooo look who's back!!
> 
> The pack must've rang out the signal...
> 
> ...


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

If i was looking to compete in sports I would only look at working lines 

but who wants that? 


One show line i was in love with (from a distance) was a evil monster in PP 

YOu want a godo balanced dog for a house pet either line can be good I want to try a well bred showline one day mines a czech mix they are stunning and some breeders work hard to maintain the aggression

it all depends on the parents of the dog I think., my dog turned out so much like her dad who is a police dog


I agree that WL seem to have more choices when it comes to finding a dog for a working trait, in certain working lines its much easier to find the dog you want when it comes to working ability

I am personally not into dogs who excel in sport, I rather have a serious showline than an extreme sport dog JMHO


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I am only talking german show lines here


the czech german lines seem nice


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one problem and disadvantage with certain young new participants in GSD is that they have and can only experience the dog of this era , which has changed quite a bit from the dogs, GSD in general , of the late 60's early to mid 70's .

you can almost make the division pre and post Helmut Raiser .

this encompasses the character of the dogs, the training, and the decoy work.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

IF i was looking for a good pet and strong house guard id never look at dogs good in sch id prefer the parents titled low if titled at all (in sch)


a bh is good enough


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> one problem and disadvantage with certain young new participants in GSD is that they have and can only experience the dog of this era , which has changed quite a bit from the dogs, GSD in general , of the late 60's early to mid 70's .
> 
> you can almost make the division pre and post Helmut Raiser .
> 
> this encompasses the character of the dogs, the training, and the decoy work.


Good point. It is spanning the years that makes it interesting to think about the future GSD IMO. What will be going on with them 50 years from now? Who can say....


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

carm what were the gsds like in the 70s?

I saw video of gsds in the 80s a lot of nice ones


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*



carmspack said:


> one problem and disadvantage with certain young new participants in GSD is that they have and can only experience the dog of this era , which has changed quite a bit from the dogs, GSD in general , of the late 60's early to mid 70's .
> 
> you can almost make the division pre and post Helmut Raiser .
> 
> this encompasses the character of the dogs, the training, and the decoy work.



Yup, so unfortunate and such a problem that I can't experience the dogs of the past because I wasn't alive. And terrible thing, the evolution of dogs and training. No one has a clue what they're doing now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

carmspack said:


> one problem and disadvantage with certain young new participants in GSD is that they have and can only experience the dog of this era , which has changed quite a bit from the dogs, GSD in general , of the late 60's early to mid 70's .
> 
> you can almost make the division pre and post Helmut Raiser .
> 
> this encompasses the character of the dogs, the training, and the decoy work.


I've read some of Anne Kent's thoughts on the changes in training and decoy work. How do you feel the character of the dogs have changed?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

wonder if Karlo's character is similar to dogs of the past.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> You said pattern training was the cue most trainers give their dogs to prepare them for a certain phase. Sorry, the way I've learned it, that's not pattern training. Pattern training as I was taught was teaching the routine. Day in, day out, you do the routine. The obedience routine is engrained in the dog. The trainers I know, doing it on a high level, don't train the whole routine like that and rarely do it. They might do it a few times before a trial, but the last thing they want is their dog anticipating. Same with protection...the highest level people do not do the protection routine. Most people don't even do call outs out of a blind. They don't want their dog anticipating. The routines are broken down into pieces, they work pieces, no need to work the routine just the way the dog will see it in trial.
> 
> I wouldn't have to post about how many dogs I've seen if anyone over the age of 50 on this forum wouldn't constantly belittle those of us that are under the age of 30 as if we don't know anything due to our age. It gets old. It's happened for every single year I've been on this forum. It's happened to other people as well. Some of those people, have a ton to offer this forum, but are no longer posting and will not give any training advice anymore because they're tired of the idea that you have to be 60 in order to know anything about dogs.
> 
> Respect is earned? No its not. Not on this forum. You and your little friends love to go onto facebook and post negative comments about the rest of us. I'll respect you and your little group the moment you start talking to people and not just behind their backs. Plenty of you had your chance to say something to me when you saw me at nationals...but no, you need the protection of a computer screen in order to say something to someone.


one more time, l'll clarify..l know what pattern training is, it is doing the routine as in 'trial picture'. Maybe if l had added the word also in one of my sentences it would have been clear to you. So sorry for confusing you. This may make more sense;_ l was at a seminar last spring with a very high profile national level competitor and breeder and he pattern trains, he *also* does the same routine to prepare his dog every time he hits the field for each phase so the dog is prepped and understanding what is coming._
As for my 'little friends' that were with me at the Nationals, neither of them are on this board, they have no idea who you are, and to 'talk behind your back'? 
ummm, hope you aren't that full of yourself to think that is happening. sheesh  
The person I was referring to in the above is the same person who is Lisa's future TD. So yes, pattern training is still happening, regardless and in the highest levels in the sport.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

so what line do the experts think this k9 is;
K-9 finds missing 2-year-old boy in woods | MLive.com


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> so what line do the experts think this k9 is;
> K-9 finds missing 2-year-old boy in woods | MLive.com


Not sure but what a hero! in Toronto there was a 2 year old that got up and left his grandmother's apartment wearing nothing but boots and his diaper in -30 something. They had the dogs out but did not utilize them right away and a couple of construction workers found him un responsive between 2 houses. It was terrible.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> so what line do the experts think this k9 is;
> K-9 finds missing 2-year-old boy in woods | MLive.com



Looks WGSL to me. I have had a phenomenal WGSL working dog. They are out there. 

Good Turbo BTW!!!!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

GatorDog said:


> Yup, so unfortunate and such a problem that I can't experience the dogs of the past because I wasn't alive. And terrible thing, the evolution of dogs and training. No one has a clue what they're doing now.



I am going to preface this with, I respect the heck out of you. I have watched you progress as a trainer and handler via this board and there is no doubt in my mind you are very talented and offer a lot to the breed and the sport. I offer this because I don't want you to think I am singling you out because I quoted you. I am not. 

I think both sides have a lot to learn from each other. This goes for way more than in just dog training by the way. I am in a middle group. Early 40's, but a newbie at IPO. And I see value in the "old timers" and the "young guns". 

The "old timers" bring not only nostalgia for "how it used to be" but also a very in depth knowledge based on personal experience with some of the dogs that died before I was born. And they have seen the gradual "change" in the breed. Some may think it good. Some may not. It's easy, for me even, to "harken back to yester year" and remember the amazing dogs. 

The "young guns" they are the actual future of the sport and the breed. They bring an enthusiasm unparalleled. I love working with some of the younger people when I work my dog. They have vision and goals as well. 

Where both side fail is to see the value in the other side. "Your only 20 something, wait until you have been in the sport that long", or " yeah none of us know how to train and evaluate a dog cause we are babies". It's a fight that should stop. IMHO. From both sides. It's counter productive. Each side should look to the other to mentor and be mentored and the learn from. Heck my regular decoy is young enough to be my son(if I was on teen moms) but still. He gives amazing guidance and encouragement. And I LISTEN. 

When I stop thinking an entire group has a voice or a worthy opinion, I am done. As should we all. When we can't look at the other sides point of view, really consider it and then discuss from there. It's time to get out. No opinion should be devalued based solely on age. It should be challenged sure, but to tell someone their opinion is less because they are young. Dumb. But also, to "roll eyes" at those doing this for years... Well that's hubris. And as I have learned, something you don't realize you have until well past you having it. 

I can look back at some of first posts on this board, and cringe. Goodness I thought I knew so much. Really did. I know less now and happily admit it. We learn as we age and experience. But I don't think that means we should discount those achieving in areas we wish to achieve in. I for, will take advice from a person much younger than I. Because I can see value in others. 

Ok. Off pedestal now. Sorry for the hijack.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

amen gsdsar....where l train the younger people are mentored and groomed as they are the future of the sport and the breed. 
I don't care how old anyone is, and don't even know unless someone posts their age...age is not what it is about. I heard on the news today that 60 is the new 40. 
Mutual respect, an open mind and listening is going to be more beneficial compared to belittling, disagreeing and boasting no matter who posts what.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I find it interesting that I'm the one that actually got CALLED A NAME in this thread, and yet I'm the one quoted as "getting personal." Getting called a "layman" isn't getting personal I guess, or breaking one of the key board rules. But that's just pack theory...when someone you don't like is getting attacked, you support it, but when its someone you do like, everyone goes on the offensive. I guess my definition of "belittling" is off. Although...the definition of layman is: a person without professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject, and yet...that's not belittling someone. Might be my confusion as English is my second language...

Sorry Jane, I'll just never say anything towards you again. I'm sure we all see how to get a mod in your favor at this point and yeah, don't really feel like getting banned because I disagree with the wrong person.

GSDSAR...truthfully, it's usually not the IPO/Schutzhund/sport people that make it an age thing. It's either people that have never done a sport, have owned 3 or so dogs in 6 decades of living, and think that gives them more experience than someone in their twenties. And then there are those that haven't seen a Schutzhund field in 2 decades who still think it's the same thing. Funny too because I just listened to a podcast featuring Wallace Payne and he made a comment about how the dogs winning the WUSV 20 years ago would be getting about 250 points in today's trials. Maybe he's not experienced enough either though...

Stoney...the thing with OPs, is that generally when you "disagree" with them, you're automatically "off topic" and wrong. I'd say about 95% of people come onto this forum for affirmation and confirmation of their current belief, and when you tell them that they're incorrect, they get angry and you're the one that's actually wrong. I know what the two of you were doing, it was theory, I just explained why theory doesn't always lend itself that well in practice. No big deal. Don't listen or believe me if you don't want, I'd actually prefer for you to get out to a training venue and see it first hand. Figure it out for yourself. That's the best way to do it.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I am going to preface this with, I respect the heck out of you. I have watched you progress as a trainer and handler via this board and there is no doubt in my mind you are very talented and offer a lot to the breed and the sport. I offer this because I don't want you to think I am singling you out because I quoted you. I am not.
> 
> I think both sides have a lot to learn from each other. This goes for way more than in just dog training by the way. I am in a middle group. Early 40's, but a newbie at IPO. And I see value in the "old timers" and the "young guns".
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you. Except the thing is, the people who may be able to bring some experience of what past dogs may have been like instead like to use that information against the newer people in the sport or breed, as if we're not privileged enough to know. It literally just happened in Carmen's post. I've seen it so many times before..the references to the way "the dogs used to be", and yet no insight or real clarification as to what that even means. 

I offer the knowledge of what I have learned through my own experiences and have never personally discounted anyone who also has experience on the topic that I chose to post my opinion on. Everyone will train differently and everyone will disagree and honestly, I don't care. It doesn't effect me at all in the end.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*



martemchik said:


> Funny too because I just listened to a podcast featuring Wallace Payne and he made a comment about how the dogs winning the WUSV 20 years ago would be getting about 250 points in today's trials. Maybe he's not experienced enough either though...



Ok so in the interest of discussion. Do you think that because the dogs have gotten better or because the sport has gotten worse? Is it because what's gets rewarded on an IPO field now is different from what it used to be? 

Do you think superior dogs are being bred now? Or more specialized dogs? Flashier dogs? Has the sport been watered down and changed to fit what's produced or are dogs now just performing better?

Edited to add:

Do you think this years National IPO winner would perform as well if he/she was competing 30 years ago? Dog, not handler? 

I know the sport has changed a lot over the years, things have been lost in the test, things have been gained. So just curious.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

GatorDog said:


> I completely agree with you. Except the thing is, the people who may be able to bring some experience of what past dogs may have been like instead like to use that information against the newer people in the sport or breed, as if we're not privileged enough to know. It literally just happened in Carmen's post. I've seen it so many times before..the references to the way "the dogs used to be", and yet no insight or real clarification as to what that even means.
> 
> 
> 
> I offer the knowledge of what I have learned through my own experiences and have never personally discounted anyone who also has experience on the topic that I chose to post my opinion on. Everyone will train differently and everyone will disagree and honestly, I don't care. It doesn't effect me at all in the end.



Absolutely. I agree. Hence my disgust with both sides. We are all at fault. We all need to learn from each other and not discount the others opinion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> so what line do the experts think this k9 is;
> K-9 finds missing 2-year-old boy in woods | MLive.com


Looks like a WGSL dog. There are indeed some good ones out there. 

Of course the folks that are hard-core WL people aren't answering because, well, anything that suggests a non WL dog can actually do the job is dismissed and ignored.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Couldn't tell you...remember, I wasn't around back then. What I can say is what I've been told and what I've seen with trainers that did start out back in the day...

The training methods have been much more refined. Dogs are bred to match the methods. The sport has shifted focus in some ways, so that has a lot to do with it as well. But did the sport shift focus because the dogs just "out grew" the older requirements? And yes, I've heard that PC/AR stuff had a lot to do with it as well. But at some level, as with all sports, when the athletes start to master the old rules, taking advantage of them due to new found athletic ability or tactics, new rules are created. Basketball is known for their "Shaq and Jordan rules" for example. So did the breeders just outsmart the sport?

Wallace said that "anyone can teach a dog to heel." Which I agree with. So in order to differentiate the amazing from the average, you had to institute new rules, new things to look at. Things can't stay stagnant. You had to start challenging trainers and dogs at a higher level.

In regards to the dog being able to win 30 years ago sans the handler....that's not a fair question. The dogs don't come out of the whelping box knowing the exercises. None of them, from 30 years ago to today. The training methods have advanced to beyond what was done back then, people learned, sport advanced. The greatest handlers learn to adapt. Sport is sport and they'll figure out a way to get the points they need in order to win.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I really don't think age is that much of a factor. 

What most people don't like is being talked down to, no matter the age of the one doing the talking.

When it comes to dogs, kids, politics and religion, and probably a whole lot of other topics there will be disagreements over who is right and who is wrong.

So to approach another human being with your wrong I'm right rarely works and certainly doesn't show respect.

I can tell you what I believe but most will not take kindly to a flat out statement that only my way is right.

I listen to the younger people but I also admit that I miss the posting of some who have 20, 30, or more years with the breed. They are a valuable asset and don't come around much anymore.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Sorry Jane, I'll just never say anything towards you again. I'm sure we all see how to get a mod in your favor at this point and yeah, don't really feel like getting banned because I disagree with the wrong person.
> 
> GSDSAR...truthfully, it's usually not the IPO/Schutzhund/sport people that make it an age thing. It's either people that have never done a sport, have owned 3 or so dogs in 6 decades of living, and think that gives them more experience than someone in their twenties. And then there are those that haven't seen a Schutzhund field in 2 decades who still think it's the same thing. Funny too because I just listened to a podcast featuring Wallace Payne and he made a comment about how the dogs winning the WUSV 20 years ago would be getting about 250 points in today's trials. Maybe he's not experienced enough either though...
> 
> Stoney...the thing with OPs, is that generally when you "disagree" with them, you're automatically "off topic" and wrong. I'd say about 95% of people come onto this forum for affirmation and confirmation of their current belief, and when you tell them that they're incorrect, they get angry and you're the one that's actually wrong. I know what the two of you were doing, it was theory, I just explained why theory doesn't always lend itself that well in practice. No big deal. Don't listen or believe me if you don't want, I'd actually prefer for you to get out to a training venue and see it first hand. Figure it out for yourself. That's the best way to do it.


"No big deal". Well, that's what the OP said to you. He wanted to know why YOU were getting so upset. He stated that he was not questioning your experience or knowledge in any way. He wanted to move on. He and I wanted to continue the conversation and you made it impossible. 

My reference to your age had absolutely nothing to do with your knowledge of GSD's. It was solely in response to the way that you behave in your posts (to some people, myself included). My reference was only that things aren't so black and white when you get older. I also said that I envy the things you will be here to see with the progression of the breed.

All I would like is to be able to discuss a topic with another poster without you dominating it and I would love to bury this problem and move on. Take a look back on your posts directed at me. Two in particular show what I am talking about, this one and the one on big vs little. There are several others, however, those were just random debates that you and a now banned member decided to get into (that were way off topic) blowing up the posts. 

I do believe that I have a right to post here without your harassment. I just reviewed the comments again and flat out, that's what it is. It reminds me of a horse fly you just can't shake. I don't need your constant comments on how uneducated my posts are. Thank You.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you want to be left alone on a public forum, you take it to PM. Simple as that. You don't control who posts in the threads and who doesn't. Feel free to friend each other on facebook and discuss there, many of us do that when we don't want other's butting in.

And trust me...nothing that ever happens on this forum upsets me.

Harassment on the internet is a very subjective thing. Like I said...many times a difference of opinion becomes harassment. Even though in the true definition of the word, I was the only one harassed when you decided to start calling me names.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Training for high levels today is exponentially harder then it was even 10 years ago. Watching worlds video of the late 90's -2000's, you realize many of those dogs would never have made out of the club level.

More demand on the trainer and more demand on the dog. Many would start to lose their "power" or go flat with the demands of today's high level trials.

In regards to the article about the WGSL: How hard was the track? Maybe it was more a matter of luck then the dog making an actual find. Unless you were there you wont know. I have said it before and I will say it again, I can find numerous breeds and dogs for single purpose work, it does not show a complete dog. 
Dont believe me? Ill sell you one any day, I usually have something capable of that work on hand. 

I believe there was a SAR malamute that had a few live finds back in the day..maybe that means you should get a Malamute for detection work. That makes sense....


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> If you want to be left alone on a public forum, you take it to PM. Simple as that. You don't control who posts in the threads and who doesn't. Feel free to friend each other on facebook and discuss there, many of us do that when we don't want other's butting in.
> 
> And trust me...nothing that ever happens on this forum upsets me.
> 
> Harassment on the internet is a very subjective thing. Like I said...many times a difference of opinion becomes harassment. Even though in the true definition of the word, I was the only one harassed when you decided to start calling me names.


You want me to PM everything on this board when you are the only problem? Well, thanks - that's a great suggestion. You said you would not post to Onyx's comments anymore, but that's only because you are afraid you will get banned? Thanks for the respect. I would like to see you afford me the same that you are offering to Onyx.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There's an ignore button you can use, feel free.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> There's an ignore button you can use, feel free.


Ignoring people who act like jerks does not stop conversations from being aborted because they get the threads shut down.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> Ignoring people who act like jerks does not stop conversations from being aborted because they get the threads shut down.


Exactly.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*

Oooo look, more name calling. Much more skillful and indirect. But I'm assuming it flies, probably has to do with the age thing again. 

You must be X years of age to be able to name call on the forum. Didn't see that in the rules when I signed up.

Ready for me to start taking every single post personal and cry wolf? This will be fun...


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

The threads get shut down because someone with an opposing opinion makes a statement and then another person who disagrees decides to take it as a "personal attack". They get shut down because of people whining that they're being "belittled" by the person who disagrees, and mods don't feel like dealing with the personal drama.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Oooo look, more name calling. Much more skillful and indirect. But I'm assuming it flies, probably has to do with the age thing again.
> 
> You must be X years of age to be able to name call on the forum. Didn't see that in the rules when I signed up.
> 
> Ready for me to start taking every single post personal and cry wolf? This will be fun...



Actually, the only reason one would use the ignore feature is if they perceive someone being a jerk to them. So there was no name calling. "Jerk" is my politically correct term that is not racial, gender specific, political, nor does it attack people who are mentally or emotionally challenged.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GatorDog said:


> The threads get shut down because someone with an opposing opinion makes a statement and then another person who disagrees decides to take it as a "personal attack". They get shut down because of people whining that they're being "belittled" by the person who disagrees, and mods don't feel like dealing with the personal drama.


Threads get shut down because they violate board rules, or because they get off-topic and spiral farther and farther from any reasonable direction. Generally threads get shut down because immature posters do not know when to let it go. Immaturity has nothing to do with a poster's age, it has more to do with behavior.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Oooo look, more name calling. Much more skillful and indirect. But I'm assuming it flies, probably has to do with the age thing again.
> 
> You must be X years of age to be able to name call on the forum. Didn't see that in the rules when I signed up.
> 
> Ready for me to start taking every single post personal and cry wolf? This will be fun...


You need to move on. Please. I know you understand what we are talking about. It does not seem as you are here to discuss/share ideas or learn. It seems as you are here to debate. Many of us aren't using this as a debate forum, we are learning to and do learn from each other every day. If you hold yourself up to know more than anyone else - well, take a look at how much that is appreciated......


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

*&quot;Working show line&quot;?*



selzer said:


> Threads get shut down because they violate board rules, or because they get off-topic and spiral farther and farther from any reasonable direction. Generally threads get shut down because immature posters do not know when to let it go. Immaturity has nothing to do with a poster's age, it has more to do with behavior.



More name calling? You're on a roll.

I'd love to know why you find it appropriate to call someone with a differing opinion a "jerk" or "immature". Immature, why? Because you don't like what the person has to say? Or because you don't like the way they said it? Since the only reasonable expectation of an a immature person on my account would be the resulting name calling of a person who is incapable of hearing someone else's opinion.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> You need to move on. Please. I know you understand what we are talking about. It does not seem as you are here to discuss/share ideas or learn. It seems as you are here to debate. Many of us aren't using this as a debate forum, we are learning to and do learn from each other every day. If you hold yourself up to know more than anyone else - well, take a look at how much that is appreciated......



So basically, this forum is only good for posting pictures of your dog for people to ogle over and threads that can't be debated because people label anyone with a differing opinion as a personal attacker. Got it. Only agree with everything from now on. Learning something is out of the question.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:



GatorDog said:


> The threads get shut down because someone with an opposing opinion makes a statement and then another person who disagrees decides to take it as a "personal attack". They get shut down because of people whining that they're being "belittled" by the person who disagrees, and mods don't feel like dealing with the personal drama.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

..and SV I've noticed you do want to learn but you can be very defensive when someone points out you hold a factually incorrect opinion. Age has nothing to do with it. You, like a lot of us, feel very uncomfortable when it is shown you were or are incorrect. I'm not sure why this is but it's a knee jerk reaction we all have from time to time. I'm sure you've been in a position where you informed someone a belief they held was inaccurate and they reacted defensively towards you. You have a tendency to do that and be very dismissive towards others here.

People have a tendency to become emotionally invested in what they "know".

Anyhoo. Guys, maybe it's time to step away from the keyboards.

Life is too short....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Even SLs can spell.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

GatorDog said:


> So basically, this forum is only good for posting pictures of your dog for people to ogle over and threads that can't be debated because people label anyone with a differing opinion as a personal attacker. Got it. Only agree with everything from now on. Learning something is out of the question.


Bingo!!


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