# Frustrating Walks



## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

We’ve been trying out a ‘canny collar’ for a couple of months and although walks now are much better than they were they’re far from ideal, she’s quite the puller! I’ll explain everything; firstly Bella is a 3 and a half year old rescue and we brought her home in July, she was spayed at the end of September and has a bit of a dislike with kids but this isn’t relevant. Our trainer believes she wasn’t massively interacted with at her previous home and that it may have been that she was left to her own devices with the male GSD there, she did not have the run of her previous home only the kitchen and garden, but at our house she had the run of everywhere (until yesterday when she decided uncharacteristically to toilet upstairs so now she has the hallways, front room and kitchen.) She was fed wagg but is now fed ‘symply’ which we were advised because it’s supposed to be good however this weekend we are going to change her food to something different I can’t remember the name as it seems to have less additives in it and more protein. Now, the collars and frustrating walks... 
Firstly, a half check collar to try just a quick correction. However, I wasn’t able to use this effectively as she’s much much stronger than me and she wouldn’t react if I did it, if my OH or my dad did it she’d respond instantly but nothing with me and I do the majority of walks. 
Secondly, we gave a full check collar a shot because we thought it might be more effective than the half with my weak arms, but I still had the same issues.
Thirdly, the canny collar...she does not like this collar, at all. I can’t stress that enough; she fought enough that she cut her nose to start with and would barely walk anywhere just pulling her head down or hitting into our legs to get it off (it may look affectionate to others but it’s not, it’s hard!) We have tried massively encouraging her that the collar was a positive thing, as soon as it’s on and she’s not fighting it, we click and treat straight away, anytime she fights it while we’re out when she stops again we click and treat. We’ve left it on for off lead walks as well to show her that with it on it doesn’t mean that it’s a punishment as she can still run through the woods with it, but when we say. Every single walk we have she will fight with all of her strength to try and take it off but if we try and just walk her on her leather collar she’s worse and it doesn’t have any sort of affect.
Since speaking to a trainer she suggested using an EZ DOG lead attached to her canny which is very short and has a triangular handle which means she doesn’t have much space to pull ahead, but she still does and it just means our arms are at full stretch; again, all of this is better with my partner than me, but I need her to work with me! Whenever she’s walking nicely next to us, not ahead or across us, we click and treat. We were told to use her food as treats and feed her anything left as breakfast and dinner because a hungry dog will work well to receive a treat/food. However, she’s become not massively fussed about receiving the treat and still just about pulling ahead, we’ve noticed sometimes we’ve given it to her and she drops it. She likes the food so we know it’s not that because as soon as it’s in a bowl she’s finished it, so I’m completely at a loss.
While we’re on lead walks if she starts pulling ahead we quickly turn in a direction she’s not expecting, or crossing the road just to make her realise it’s not HER in control, she goes where WE want her to and for that to happen nicely she has to walk next to us, but she just doesn’t!
What on earth can I do?! We’ve considered trying a gentle leader but I don’t massively see how it will work different to a canny collar and if she doesn’t like anything on her face is she just going to constantly fight against that? We spoke to a couple of pet shops about a harness but were told they aren’t a good idea with bigger dogs as they just encourage stronger muscles in their chest and they’ll still pull against them. 
She CAN walk nicely, she KNOWS what we want her to do because sometimes it’s like she gives up the fight and will do it, or like with my OH she walks better with him. If my Dad is walking her then she’s perfect, she watches him through the whole walk and if she gets distracted he just says her name and she’s back to watching him, no clicker, no treats, she’s just in love with him. So with that it seems like she’s deciding to be naughty with me, and trust me I’m not soft with her, I may not be strong but I have the right sort of tone to get her to do what I need because she’ll listen in the house, just walks with me are ****. 
Sorry this has turned into a bit of an essay but I’m at the end of my tether. We do have a trainer but without being rude she has said that she struggles with her dog to not pull as well and has a back pack sort of thing with a handle so if he pulled she can hold onto his body weight and his collar but I’d have no hope of doing that with Bella  She’s starting a couple of visits to doggy day care a week as well as I’m hoping that will burn off any excess energy as it’s too dark for us to do off lead walks either side of work but we do a bit of training in the house for example, wait for treats, roll over, spin, silly things like that to keep her involved and thoughtful in the house. For this she will respond to me and my OH.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is a lot here and there are a ton of ways to approach a problem like this all with their own costs and benefits. You could consider a prong collar and if properly fit and combined with leash pressure techniques at first you could fairly easily control the dog without having to be super strong. 




There are positive only methods involving "penalty yards" for a dog that walks ahead. Where you immediately make a correction noise when the dog steps ahead of you and change directions. 

There are click and treat methods





Hopefully Madlab sees this and posts that leash control video he's so fond of because it has good information in it especially regarding opposition reflex. You always have to keep in mind Newtons laws apply to dogs. A force applied on a dog will be equally (sometimes more than equally as I am sure you have found) and oppositely opposed by the dog.

Whatever you decide to do keep in mind the tools are not the answer, ultimately the training has to happen through operant or classical conditioning. Also keep in mind you start where there are minimal distractions and then work your way up to real world situations and places with distractions. You're not going to find a magic bullet anywhere. The work has to be put in.


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

I'll watch these videos when I'm not at work; thank you very much. What is opposition reflex? and yes it's definitely more than equally opposed by her! I have arm ache most days.

The frustrating thing is that I've REALLY tried putting the work in, and I literally mean for months; we introduced training collars/tools in an effort to help them work with us so that eventually she could just be walked on her leather collar. What do you suggest I do if she's not responsive to the treats any more though? And what if she's just deciding to be naughty with me? She CAN walk so nicely with other people just not me so it's not as if she doesn't know any lead training, she just chooses to not use any of it with me even though I'm the one who introduced most of it.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Is she getting rewarded for pulling, ie, are you letting her take you where she wants to go?
Change the rules. Pulling means everything stops. No one goes anywhere unless she is walking nicely. 
You may also want to get a prong and put a nice cover on it. I know you are in the UK, but there are so many nice options on Etsy.
https://www.etsy.com/market/prong_collar_cover


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Opposition reflex is basically what I just described A force applied on a dog will be equally (sometimes more than equally as I am sure you have found) and oppositely opposed by the dog. 

If you pull against a dog or provide tension in a given direction against a dog they will always pull in the opposite direction. It often turns into a situation where feedback between a dog and owner makes the situation worse. Dog pulls you so you pull back so the dog pulls back, and then it gets worse still when you apply tension in a direction bracing for the pull you "know" is coming and it causes the dog to pull in the other direction and the dog more or less starts to anticipate pulling behavior from you so he in turn causes tension in the opposite direction. It becomes an escalating war, and if you aren't as strong as your dog you end up losing it and its super frustrating.

What I would do personally in the non responsiveness to treats situation is don't feed her for a day maybe even two. Hand feed her during training only. She will take the food and the training a ton more seriously as a result, and since you have to feed her you also have to train her. Frustration can discourage you from training so it is good to have that extra bit of motivation on your side to keep you at it. A hungry dog is a motivated dog, a dog that has absolutely all it's needs met is way harder to motivate.

Another thing to keep in mind. Dogs are simple. They have lemon sized brains (GSDs do anyway smaller dogs obviously have even smaller brains.) The vast majority of that lemon is dedicated to the control of the nose or the nose has control over it. Ultimately the part of the brain you are training is probably the size of a peanut. They don't have complex cognitive processes. Most everything is learning by conditioning with them. They can't decide to be naughty with you and they don't choose to perform with one person and not the other. It is a matter of either not generalizing a behavior, not fully knowing a behavior, or there is something those other people are doing or not doing that triggers the desirable behavior out of the dog and you need to figure out just what that is. We do ourselves and the dogs a disservice by putting human standards and explanations for learning and behavior on them, and we over-complicate things as a result.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Whatever method you decide to do start in the house. Don't even bother thinking about taking it outside until you can master it in the house. A lot of people will put a harness on their dogs before they teach them to loose leash walk so the dog doesn't become habituated to pulling from the neck when they take the dog out to go to the bathroom or whatever. This is especially useful if you're teaching the dog to cave to leash pressure. To actually exercise they dog they wouldn't even bother with a walk they'd play fetch in the back yard or tug or bait pole or whatever.

When the leash goes on the collar its all about the training at that point and consistently all the rules of the training method apply and at all times.

So if you needed to rush to get somewhere with him the leash would be on the harness. If you were training or just didn't mind taking your time to train as you were headed somewhere you can leash to the collar. A lot of dogsport people do this with puppies, especially the Ellis style people. We want our dogs tugging on harnesses but not from the neck. Police dogs work the same way. When tracking (dragging a cop through the neighborhood following scent) they put the leash to a harness. When they want control over the dog the leash goes to the collar.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Nothing to add to the excellent posts above except:

If your trainer can't train their own dog to walk on a loose leash, they are not a trainer. You would be far better off investing your money in some good dvds and books.

David Winners


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Is she getting rewarded for pulling, ie, are you letting her take you where she wants to go?
> Change the rules. Pulling means everything stops. No one goes anywhere unless she is walking nicely.
> You may also want to get a prong and put a nice cover on it. I know you are in the UK, but there are so many nice options on Etsy.
> https://www.etsy.com/market/prong_collar_cover


we avoid taking her where she wants to go however if we're on a path that there's no turning off sometimes it's unavoidable. We do turn her around completely or cross the road but she only responds to that until we walk straight again. 

I'm not hugely keen on prong collars :\ to be honest I don't like check collars but they were in the shop and someone suggested it. Won't it hurt her?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A prong collar can cause a dog pain, but so can any other collar. You would have to seriously try to injure a dog with a quality prong collar. 

Check out the Michael Ellis video above.

Here's a couple more vids. Tyler Muto is great with leash pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnoPXgWG0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB8dhKNichw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you ever bother putting the prong collar around your own neck and giving it a little yank you will notice there is pressure but unless you really pop it it won't hurt. You can teach a dog to loose leash walk on a flat collar or martingale just fine, however it does require quite a bit more strength to get the dog under control if he decides to lunge or really pull in a given direction. The prong doesn't require much strength and there is largely a self correcting mechanism in there with perfect timing should he decide to try to bolt on you. Prongs have potential for misuse as a tool. This probably won't be an issue with someone like you, you obviously don't want to cause undue pain or discomfort to the dog. With a yank and crank compulsion type of person it might be an issue.

If you decide to use a prong you want to make sure you introduce it properly, make sure it is fitted properly and in the correct position as well so it will require a tad bit of research Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar. 

You don't want to just slap one on a dog and try to walk the dog or you will run into the same issue you had with the canny collar. You would put the prong collar on the dog for gradually increasing periods of time and then take it off and then give treats as you do this so the dog learns to associate it with positive things. This would go on for two weeks or more and during this time you wouldn't actually put the leash on the prong collar. All you would be doing is putting it on him and giving him food for letting you do so, and then taking it off when you aren't keeping an eye on him. 

Even after you started putting the leash on the prong collar you would make sure the dog was wearing that prong collar for at least 15 minutes before you did it and then wearing it for at least 15 minutes after you end a training session. This prevents the dog from becoming "collar wise." If the dog becomes collar wise you run into two issues. 1 the dog won't want you putting it on for obvious reasons, and 2. The dog will be way more likely to learn that without the collar on he can go right back to his old pulling behaviors.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> A prong collar can cause a dog pain, but so can any other collar. You would have to seriously try to injure a dog with a quality prong collar.
> 
> Check out the Michael Ellis video above.
> 
> ...


And there it is that was the video I was hoping Madlab would link.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It is also important to note just for CYA sake that those techniques in that video are not for young puppies. It is escape avoidance based and even if you gave treats to the dog for giving in it is still mildly stressful for the dog and you would want to wait till a dog was 6 months or older before doing this kind of thing especially with a prong collar.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Baillif said:


> It is also important to note just for CYA sake that those techniques in that video are not for young puppies. It is escape avoidance based and even if you gave treats to the dog for giving in it is still mildly stressful for the dog and you would want to wait till a dog was 6 months or older before doing this kind of thing especially with a prong collar.


The dog is two years old.
I do agree that if the trainer is unable to control her own dog, she is not a real trainer.
I think it is far more cruel to allow the dog to strangle itself on a flat collar or have that awful canny thing on the snout that they dislike so much, than it is to have a prong that will stop the pulling. As long as the dog doesn't pull, the dog will be comfortable. Much more comfortable than with that strap around this muzzle, which is the most sensitive spot on a dog. Not to mention that injuries can happen if they pull on the canny.
People in the UK have scorn for prongs based on what they look like, which is why I suggested the cover. As was mentioned above, if you put it on yourself you will find it doesn't hurt, And you don't have thick muscle and for as dogs do on their necks.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I wanted to add that your dad was in the military and suggested a choke chain. Those work well if used correctly, but they can injure the dog's trachea. 
Prong works by putting pressure to the spot that a mother dog would bite. It doesn't stab the neck, it squeezes it.
I think a prong is the safest way to control a powerful dog, if you are a small woman such as myself.


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

Thank you, I genuinely hadn't realised a prong squeezed rather than stabbed which is why I had a bit of a dislike to them, and please don't think I am overly keen on choke chains or military training, there have been times I've told my Dad off and reminded him that she's my dog! (Not because he's abusive or cruel, just because it was a shock for me to see it and I would need to replicate what he was doing which I couldn't) I was pretty against it which is why we tried a half to start with and I really hoped it would be enough then it was suggested by the shop and Dad to try a full one, and remembering my dad's GSD lead walks it had worked with her and she never pulled even us as kids. 
I am trying to avoid any injury to Bella (throat/snout/nose) and to myself (arms) but I'm struggling to break this 3 and a half years of strong pulling walks that she's so used to, even our first walk from the previous owners home was pretty strong, enough to drag my partner. Once I'm home this evening I'm going to be watching these videos and I'll speak to Sam about a prong collar if they're not as awful as I thought as obviously it isn't only up to me, I appreciate everyone's help  

Failing him agreeing to a prong collar, would a gentle leader be any good? I know it's something else around the snout but it was another suggestion we'd been given.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah you have to keep in mind the prongs aren't sharp and there are a lot of them so that the force is distributed over a wider area. It is the same principle behind people laying on a bed of nails having a cinderblock on their chest and then having that cinderblock sledgehammered into them and yet they get up off the bed without a scratch.


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## GriffinGSD (Mar 29, 2013)

I would absolutely go with the prong/pinch collar. I too was skeptical at first with the collar, since we are mostly conditioned to think it is a torture device. I recently started training my 10 month GSD with a trainer who highly recommends it. Once properly taught how to use it, it was amazing. I would suggest finding a trainer who knows how to properly use the collar and work with them. As my trainer told me, a dog's neck is not like our neck. Its more similar to our thigh as far as muscle and sensitivity go. Also, as mentioned previously, the collar doesn't poke the dog in the neck, it simply squeezes the prongs together when closed to pinch the scruff of the neck. I tried most training tools on the market for obedience, specifically loose leash walking, and the prong/pinch collar was by far the most effective.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

I have had great results in just being more stubborn than the dog. If I get a taut lead, I stop, I stop dead in my tracks, whip out my phone and play a round of Candy Crush. I stand on the lead and ignore the dog. Once tension has been eliminated I put the phone away and begin walking again. Even if I only get one step and tension hits the lead, I do the Candy Crush thing again. I make it very very clear that a loose leash means moving and a tight leash means dead stop.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Would something besides candy crush be as effective?

David Winners


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

David Winners said:


> Would something besides candy crush be as effective?
> 
> David Winners


Hill Climb Racing works too.


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

I hope not I need to get past this level  I haven't tried just stopping completely still till she's next to me to be honest, I'll give that a go!


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

BandErlPhoLa said:


> I hope not I need to get past this level  I haven't tried just stopping completely still till she's next to me to be honest, I'll give that a go!


Be a hardass about it. Once the idea seats a bit I have found that with my dogs a quick audible of "eh" and a quick pop of the lead reminds them to keep the line slack.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

I agree with what everyone else has said, but I did want to comment on the food issue. My GSD is not super food motivated so she wouldn't take it at all outside (even cheese which she goes crazy for in other locations). The outside world and all its smells is just too stimulating for her, so it really helped to do a ton of training in less distracting environments: the house, the yard, a big open field, etc. Then when we went around the neighborhood, she had a better idea of what to do and I just had to implement real life rewards: continuing the walk, getting to sniff, etc. Of course wearing her slap out before hand helps too 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I know this is slightly off topic but what the heck is everyone's obsession with Candy Crush. The game is like a virus.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Baillif said:


> I know this is slightly off topic but what the heck is everyone's obsession with Candy Crush. The game is like a virus.


Its free? Time waster, great to cook off 2-3 minutes.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Continue with the canny collar and don't allow him to dictate when and where it will be used. Use it all the time. It really does help with dogs that pull and is much easier on your arms.

I use one on my male, as he is pulls, have been using the canny collar on him for about 2 years - he doesn't like it, and still to this day will at times try and slip it off his nose and when I bring it out to put on him, I can tell he would like to run away, but it is wonderful for me as I don't have so much pressure on my arm, so he will and does just have to put up with it.

Also I would treat him when you put it on only. If he tries to roll on the ground or against you to get it off his nose, then correct him and tell him 'no', don't reward him for trying to take it off.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> Continue with the canny collar and don't allow him to dictate when and where it will be used. Use it all the time. It really does help with dogs that pull and is much easier on your arms.
> 
> I use one on my male, as he is pulls, have been using the canny collar on him for about 2 years - he doesn't like it, and still to this day will at times try and slip it off his nose and when I bring it out to put on him, I can tell he would like to run away, but it is wonderful for me as I don't have so much pressure on my arm, so he will and does just have to put up with it.
> 
> Also I would treat him when you put it on only. If he tries to roll on the ground or against you to get it off his nose, then correct him and tell him 'no', don't reward him for trying to take it off.


using this type of collar all the time is like using a crutch. it should be a training tool. if you've used it on your dog for more than 2 years then you havent taught/trained your dog to do anything.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The greatest victories are won without a struggle young grasshopper


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> using this type of collar all the time is like using a crutch. it should be a training tool. if you've used it on your dog for more than 2 years then you havent taught/trained your dog to do anything.


I don't know what you mean by saying 'using a crutch'?? no idea

I like using the canny collar regardless, it is gentle on the dog. I actually use it with my female who does not pull and my male who pulls sometimes, I find it gives excellent control of the head. 

Also I have taught and trained my dogs lots thanks!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

you say your male doesnt like it and will sometimes try to get it off. the fact that after 2 years your dog still pulls and you cant put him on a flat collar that is more comfortable for him shows lack of training to me. but what do i know....


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

he just doesn't like it across his nose.

i assume you mean a check or choke chain when talking about a flat collar? Can and have used them, however I don't like them. He will pull sometimes not all the time, does yours. He has been trained to advanced level obedience. You are entitled to your opinion as am I.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Harry and Lola said:


> ...he doesn't like it, and still to this day will at times try and slip it off his nose and when I bring it out to put on him, I can tell he would like to run away, but it is wonderful for me as I don't have so much pressure on my arm, so he will and does just have to put up with it.


What you are saying is that it's easier for you to manage his pulling with a tool he doesn't like instead of taking the time to train him to walk on a loose leash.

You won't have so much pressure on your arm if you show your dog what is right, or even what is wrong. Wouldn't your dog be happier in a flat collar? Isn't it worth your time to make him more comfortable?

He wants to run away! I guess I would rather work with the dog and allow both of us to enjoy our time together. 

I'm not recommending this but... It would be easier on the dog to give them a couple hard corrections with an appropriate training collar than to force them to deal with having this uncomfortable thing their face for hours at a time. 

Here's an idea... Get a pair of shoes 2 sizes too small (and made of hard leather), and every time you put the halter on the dog, you have to wear the shoes. Seems fair to me LOL.

P.S. I really hate head halters 

David Winners


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

What you are saying is that it's easier for you to manage his pulling *HE ONLY PULLS SOMETIMES* with a tool he doesn't like instead of taking the time to train him to walk on a loose leash. *HE HAS BEEN ADVANCED LEVEL TRAINED AND DOES WALK LOOSE LEAD WITH THE CANNY COLLAR*

You won't have so much pressure on your arm if you show your dog what is right, *I DON'T HAVE SO MUCH PRESSURE ON MY ARM *or even what is wrong *HE IS SHOWN WHAT IS WRONG*. Wouldn't your dog be happier in a flat collar? *NO* Isn't it worth your time to make him more comfortable? *IT IS WORTH MY TIME TO MAKE MYSELF MORE COMFORTABLE*


He wants to run away! *WANTS TO BUT DOESN'T (GOOD TRAINING ON MY PART)* I guess I would rather work with the dog and allow both of us to enjoy our time together. *I DON'T LIKE FLAT COLLARS SO I WOULD NOT ENJOY OUR WALK*

I'm not recommending this but... It would be easier on the dog to give them a couple hard corrections *NO THANKS* with an appropriate training collar than to force them *I AM IN CONTROL NOT MY DOG* to deal with having this uncomfortable *HE IS NOT UNCOMFORTABLE *thing their face for hours at a time *WE ONLY WALK FOR 40 TO 60 MINUTES AND HE ENJOYS IT VERY MUCH*. 

Here's an idea... Get a pair of shoes 2 sizes too small (and made of hard leather), and every time you put the halter on the dog, you have to wear the shoes. Seems fair to me LOL. *YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS RATHER THAN FUNNY*

P.S. I really hate head halters  *TOO BAD - I LIKE THEM *


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Why are you yelling, mate?
We understand: it's all about you and what you like and want. No need to shout and bold.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Not yelling, just trying to separate my text from other poster by bolding it.

Also, I'm not mate, I'm a female.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I am simply replying to his questions, I didn't realise bold and in capitals was meant to be yelling??? I'm not an experience forum user so I had no idea. I don't know if you are being smug but we were talking about me and therefore what I like?


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

head halters, choke chains, prongs, ecollars, etc are all training tools. its not meant to be used on a dog forever.

no one cares if you want to use a head halter on your dog that he clearly doesnt like. your dog, your choice. what i do have a problem is you telling the op to use it all the time. i'm sure the op would want to train their dog instead of using the head halter as a band aid forever.

i also agree that a few hard corrections gets through to the dog a lot better than a bunch of nagging corrections.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

In my opinion Boomer you are wrong, these are not training tools they can and are used by many people to walk their dogs all over the world. 

Can you show me evidence that these items are only meant to be used as a training tool.

It is a matter of personal preference - I prefer the canny collar, the OP does and so do many other people

You do not - that is your personal opinion

I do - this is my personal opinion.

I do not have to change the way I walk my dogs because you on this forum tell me I am using a 'band aid' approach to walking my dog.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

to me a training tool is anything that the dog doesnt wear 24/7. inside the house, dogs either have no collar or a flat collar on. i'm sure you dont make your dog wear a "canny" inside the house do you? why is that? because you aren't TRAINING him to not pull inside the house so you take it off. 

no one said you have to change the way you walk your dog. it was just stated that a head halter is a training tool and shouldnt be used for the rest of the dogs life. and i was just pointing that out of the op so they dont take bad info from someone who, imo, is using it wrong =)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Harry and Lola said:


> What you are saying is that it's easier for you to manage his pulling *HE ONLY PULLS SOMETIMES* with a tool he doesn't like instead of taking the time to train him to walk on a loose leash. *HE HAS BEEN ADVANCED LEVEL TRAINED AND DOES WALK LOOSE LEAD WITH THE CANNY COLLAR*
> 
> If he pulls sometimes, he's only complying with you most of the time. A trained and proofed behavior isn't something the dog only does when he feels like it. I am not aware of what constitutes a dog being ADVANCED LEVEL TRAINED. I would assume that would include teaching leash manners as a trained and proofed behavior and not as a management technique.
> 
> ...



Head halters help you manage a dog, not train it. YMMV


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> to me a training tool is anything that the dog doesnt wear 24/7. inside the house, dogs either have no collar or a flat collar on. i'm sure you dont make your dog wear a "canny" inside the house do you? why is that? because you aren't TRAINING him to not pull inside the house so you take it off.
> 
> no one said you have to change the way you walk your dog. it was just stated that a head halter is a training tool and shouldnt be used for the rest of the dogs life. and i was just pointing that out of the op so they dont take bad info from someone who, imo, is using it wrong =)


The canny collar is a collar I like to use when walking my 2 GSDs. I hardly think it appropriate for you to say I should not use it for the rest of my dogs life, you don't have the expertise to state this.

I don't use a flat collar in the house, my dogs don't have a collar on in the house - I don't need one.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Head halters help you manage a dog, not train it. YMMV


What you are saying is that it's easier for you to manage his pulling *HE ONLY PULLS SOMETIMES* with a tool he doesn't like instead of taking the time to train him to walk on a loose leash. *HE HAS BEEN ADVANCED LEVEL TRAINED AND DOES WALK LOOSE LEAD WITH THE CANNY COLLAR*

If he pulls sometimes, he's only complying with you most of the time. *YES THAT'S RIGHT *A trained and proofed behavior isn't something the dog only does when he feels like it. *DISAGREE, ALL DOGS CAN LOSE FOCUS AND CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR* I am not aware of what constitutes a dog being ADVANCED LEVEL TRAINED. *HIGHEST LEVEL A DOG CAN COMPLETE UNLESS GOING ONTO TRIALLING *I would assume that would include teaching leash manners as a trained and proofed behavior and not as a management technique *YES - HEELING WITH LOOSE LEAD AND NO LEAD*. 

You won't have so much pressure on your arm if you show your dog what is right, *I DON'T HAVE SO MUCH PRESSURE ON MY ARM *or even what is wrong *HE IS SHOWN WHAT IS WRONG*. Wouldn't your dog be happier in a flat collar? *NO* Isn't it worth your time to make him more comfortable? *IT IS WORTH MY TIME TO MAKE MYSELF MORE COMFORTABLE*

I was quoting you with the SO MUCH PRESSURE remark. *THINK YOU MAY HAVE MISINTERPRETED ME, I MEAN 'SO MUCH PRESSURE' NOT SOOOOOOOOO MUCH PRESSURE'* I have a relationship with the dogs I train that includes mutual respect. *SO DO I* My goal is to achieve compliance through training and understanding. *SAME* I think this is where our basic difference lies and why we see things in an opposed fashion. You are worried about yourself being comfortable,* ABSOLUTELY* which is understandable. I aim to make it comfortable for the both of us *LOOK - MY DOGS ARE PERFECTLY HAPPY FOR GOODNESS SAKE, WHY ARE YOU SAYING THEY ARE NOT. JUST BECAUSE ONE SEES THE COLLAR AND ATTEMPTS TO GET OUT OF IF EVERY NOW AND THEN DOES NOT MEAN HE IS UNHAPPY - HE IS, HE TROTS ALONG NICE AND HAPPY* *.*and spend the time training to make that happen *SAME*.


He wants to run away! *WANTS TO BUT DOESN'T (GOOD TRAINING ON MY PART)* I guess I would rather work with the dog and allow both of us to enjoy our time together. *I DON'T LIKE FLAT COLLARS SO I WOULD NOT ENJOY OUR WALK*

He still wants to run away because he's stressed by the equipment. *NO HE'S NOT - HE IS VERY HAPPY* Is the reason you don't like flat collars because your dog pulls in them, *NO* or is there another reason? *I HAVE SEEN DOGS SLIP OUT OF THEM AND I LIKE THE CANNY COLLAR* If your dog walked perfectly on a flat collar, would you still dislike them? *YES*

I'm not recommending this but... It would be easier on the dog to give them a couple hard corrections *NO THANKS* with an appropriate training collar than to force them *I AM IN CONTROL NOT MY DOG* to deal with having this uncomfortable *HE IS NOT UNCOMFORTABLE *thing their face for hours at a time *WE ONLY WALK FOR 40 TO 60 MINUTES AND HE ENJOYS IT VERY MUCH*. 

If you were in control, you wouldn't need a leash, let alone a head halter. *I AM IN CONTROL 99.9% ARE YOU TELLING ME YOU ARE IN CONTROL 100% OF THE TIME - ARE YOU THAT PERFECT* If he wasn't uncomfortable, he wouldn't try and take it off.* HE IS VERY HAPPY* If he likes it so much, why does he go into avoidance around the collar? *HABIT* Why does he try and get it off *IT PROBABLY ANNOYS HIS NOSE A LITTLE BIT *If you walk for 40-60 minutes a day, that's hours a week he is uncomfortable. *HE IS NOT UNCOMFORTABLE HE IS VERY HAPPY*

Here's an idea... Get a pair of shoes 2 sizes too small (and made of hard leather), and every time you put the halter on the dog, you have to wear the shoes. Seems fair to me LOL. *YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS RATHER THAN FUNNY*

I was trying to be educational, and a little funny too  Explain to me how it's different, you wearing something uncomfortable and the dog doing the same? Maybe because you are the human, he is the dog, suck it up and deal with it. I was this way for a long time. I used Koehler methods for years when I first started training dogs. That's all there was. I'm trying to help you (and more so others reading this) understand that there are better ways of training and communicating with your dog. *I DON'T FIND YOU HELPFUL AT ALL, I AM PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH USING A CANNY COLLAR AND DON'T NEED YOU TO MAKE ME FEEL AS IF I AM DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

PS I'M NOT YELLING, JUST MAKING MY TEXT STAND OUT
*


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> I use one on my male, as he is pulls, have been using the canny collar on him for about 2 years - he doesn't like it, and still to this day will at times try and slip it off his nose and when I bring it out to put on him, I can tell he would like to run away, but it is wonderful for me as I don't have so much pressure on my arm, so he will and does just have to put up with it.


sure sounds like a happy dog! you yourself said he doesnt like it and you can tell he wants to run away from you putting it on. then people make a few post and suddenly you get defensive and your dog is the best dog ever and doesnt have a problem with something wrapped around his snout and is happy as can be. and why is your "advanced obedience trained" dog still pulling? if your dog is so well trained why is there pressure on your arm at all? you need to make up your mind.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

btw you went from a dog that has pulled for 2 years to a dog that is trained in advanced obedience and can heel without a leash and almost ready to trail all within 5 posts. pretty dang incredible.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> sure sounds like a happy dog! you yourself said he doesnt like it and you can tell he wants to run away from you putting it on. then people make a few post and suddenly you get defensive and your dog is the best dog ever and doesnt have a problem with something wrapped around his snout and is happy as can be. and why is your "advanced obedience trained" dog still pulling? if your dog is so well trained why is there pressure on your arm at all? you need to make up your mind.


He is a happy dog, just because he doesn't like the canny collar does not mean he is depressed or I am torturing him or he is just soooo unhappy. Don't know why you want to keep on insisting I have an unhappy dog - very strange.

I don't feel I am being defensive, just answering yours and David Winter's ridiculous accusation that my dog is unhappy and the fact that you both just don't want to accept my collare preference for me not you, me.

My dog is advanced obedience trained - by me and he does not pull, oh wait, there was a time he did pull it was on Monday the 25th October in 2012, there was an off leash husky running towards him and my GSD wanted to take up the challenge. Lucky I had the canny collar on, was a breeze redirecting him and dealing with the challenging husky. 

I don't have pressure on my arm and using the canny collar is like holding nothing at all, in fact because there is no strain at all from either of my 2, I sometimes forget there are 2 dogs on the end of the leashes.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm not trying to argue here. Really. I'm just sharing information. It's your dog. If you are happy with the situation, good!

I do a lot more than walks around the block with my dogs, so I'm sure we have a different perspective. That's ok.

I'm sorry if I made you feel like you were doing something wrong per say. I'm just trying to help you see that there is something different, something more, that you may not understand. It's certainly not something you need to prescribe to, or listen to for that matter.

Happy Thanksgiving to you, your family and your dog!

David Winners


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> btw you went from a dog that has pulled for 2 years to a dog that is trained in advanced obedience and can heel without a leash and almost ready to trail all within 5 posts. pretty dang incredible.


He only pulls sometimes - is there another way I can say this to you as I don't think you are understanding me.

He has achieved his advance class this year. Impressive isn't it.

He can heel with no leash, however I prefer not to do this when on walks as it is against the law here in Australia to walk your dog off lead in public areas, only off leash dog parks. Unfortunately, unlike the States we are not allowed by law to walk our dogs off lead in national parks and bushland areas.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Happy Thanksgiving to you David.

I have trained 5 GSDs over the years in obedience and am experienced in 2 different methods of obedience training. I am quite comfortable with my preferred training method and my preferred collar for walking.

My initial post to the OP was to persevere with the canny collar as I like it - it is up to her whether she does or she does not - this forum is a place for people to write down their experiences and what worked and did not work for them.


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

In 100% honesty I don’t want to use the canny collar forever, I’m not even 100% convinced it’s effective because if it was she wouldn’t be pulling anymore BUT she does pull LESS when it’s on. I appreciate that I should other people do like it and its not he first time I've heard of it being used long term but only in my opinion, a dog should be walked on a standard leather collar, I'm just trying to get her there! But even this morning she let it slip off her nose and i thought I’d try her without it for a couple of minutes but no good, so it was put back onto her nose, she obviously isn't ready for it yet. Eventually I would love to just walk her on her flat leather collar, she looks so pretty without contraptions over her face and I really don’t like people mistaking it for a muzzle.

So, since last night. Bella had 2 on lead walks last night, both on the short lead and both times I stopped completely if she pulled my arm forward, she brought herself back and sat just behind my leg so I clicked and treated, then I waited for her to not be looking straight on intently then I would turn and walk the opposite way, even if I had to do this every 2 steps I did it. My partner got home from work almost an hour after me and I was still walking what would usually be about a 15-20 minute run around the block to pee! So although she wasn’t not pulling, she showed that she does in fact know the right place to be when she’s on the lead. The second walk my partner tried the same method and it was pretty much the same although she pulled forward less and it only took about half an hour in comparison to almost an hour. I carried out the walk by holding the hand that I had the lead in with the opposite hand behind my back (more to ground myself and extra strength) and walked nice and slowly to show her pulling gets her nowhere faster.

This morning I thought I would try her back on the longer lead (I’m hoping I didn’t un-do anything) and did the exact same thing, stopping if the lead was pulled forward, click and treat when she came back and sat next to me and I must admit the longer lead was easier other than the aforementioned slip of the canny and she behaved a lot better but I’m guessing it’s because there was much less restriction? I still did some turns, I stopped every time she pulled, and it was quite a nice first walk of the day which is usually **** and I carried on for longer than I usually would, I only turned her away when she barked at some huskies...far too early for her bark. 

Should I carry on with her right next to my leg or just loose leash? She seems to understand both but I don’t know which is most important? (I’m not sure that’s the right word). I know when Dad will walk her tomorrow for me he will have her next to his leg but he could ask her to do a cartwheel and I’m sure she would do that.


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> Also I would treat him when you put it on only. If he tries to roll on the ground or against you to get it off his nose, then correct him and tell him 'no', don't reward him for trying to take it off.


See, I thought this was the way to do it but we were told that if we're treating when it goes on then we treat EVERY time it goes on...maybe I'll try that too and see if she stops struggling with it.


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## Courtney_Chambers (Dec 29, 2013)

I got a training harness where you connect the leash to their chest. I got it because our puppy pulls. It's amazing! Walks are much more enjoyable now 


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