# Panda GSD



## jone

Just curious, does anyone here have one? Or know one? Are they really pure GSD's? I'm told so and that they have less play /work drive and are larger than the breed standard. I've never seen one, just wondering.


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## JerzeyGSD

I've never heard of a panda GSD... I'm interested to see what others say.


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## marksteven

I like their coloring, but thats all i know of them. saw them on a website. definitley different.


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## Jax08

my understanding is it is a natural mutation, not standard but breeders are trying to get a separate AKC listing for them.


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## atravis

I've never seen one in person, but they sure do take a pretty picture.










Apparently the original lady that bred them claims they have been genetically tested, and proven to be pure.


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## jone

I'm told they're more laid back and less active. Equal intelligence and same graceful movement, larger frame. 
I like the coloring too. They look like bernese mt dog skin over a GSD body. 
They're a spontaneous color mutation, and although not breed standard are supposed to be pure with papers to prove it. 
I am anxious to hear from anyone who knows more than the "facts" I picked up. 
pics anyone?


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## shilohsmom

My breeder recently had one in one of her litters. If I remember right it was quite a surprise, nothing she was expecting from the mother/father. They are pretty.


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## jone

I just learned on another board that they also shed less. Interesting.


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## Chicagocanine

I have never heard that they are more laid back or that they shed less. The only breeder I know does agility and etc so I don't think they are more laid back.


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## MaggieRoseLee

http://www.pandashepherds.com/ has lots of info.


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## jone

That's the woman I spoke with. I'm interested in one of her pups. But until today I never heard of this color pattern. 
It isn't what I thought I was looking for, and certainly doesn't meet breed standard. But the less shed, less active, same intelligence part is tempting. {If it's true} 
I'm curious to hear from anyone who knows one or has one.


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## BowWowMeow

I had a gsd x australian cattle dog who looked a bit like a panda shepherd. He had more energy than a border collie and shed like it was going out of style!









I imagine that the shedding less, less energy thing is a myth.


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## jone

myth is the consensus thus far. your dog is adorable. more energy than a border collie? yikes.


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## Barb E

From the pedigree data base, Panda in a litter of pups in Australia - not bred from Pandas

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/294148.html

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/16092.html#282482


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## BowWowMeow

If I had a pup like that show up in my litter I would suspect a marauding St. Bernard or something!







How strange that they show up every so often. I guess livers and blues do too but they're not as different looking.


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## AbbyK9

Beyond the people who are breeding "panda" colored German Shepherds with other "panda" colored German Shepherds, most people with "pandas" get them from litters where one pup turns out to be a pup of a different color. Since it's a genetic mutation, it can happen in any litter, like the one Shilosmom's breeder was surprised by.

Because they can happen in any litter, the amount the dog sheds, the size of the dog, the energy level, and the temperament are determined by the breeding stock the dog comes from. Most "pandas" will NOT shed less, be later, or have less energy than any other German Shepherd dog of a "normal" color. It simply is a different color, not a different dog.

I don't know what the "Panda Shepherd" website people are breeding for - are they breeding solely for the "rare" color, or are they breeding to the standard with all applicable health testing and necessary working ability taken into account?


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## jone

The woman I spoke with tells me she is breeding sound dogs and is very particular about the health testing and ability. She guarantees hips, elbows, and does temperment testing. She is breeding panda dames with blk sires, I presume the intention is to create more pandas. She provides vet and customer references and states her reputation depends on the quality of the pups. 
It all seems credible. But the business is sales. And I don't know how much used car dealers can resemble puppy peddlers. 
I know little about that business. My GSD was a gift from an ex, my Rotti was a shelter rescue, and my mix breed I found in a bucket on the street. This is my first experience with all that reputable breeding should entail. 
I hoped to find someone here who had one or knew one so I could get any useful information that is not coming from the sales person.
I love shepherds far and above any other, but I have no intentions to breed, show, or work the dog so I don't care what colors are appropriate to the breed standard. If the dog is smart, has good temperment, is healthy, and looks good I'm happy. My daughter wanted a bernese, I want a GSD. The calico colored pattern of a panda seems like a compromise that could pleae us both. 
I'm getting the idea that there is some disdain or aversion to this coat color and I wonder if it's valid for a particular reason.


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## khawk

Ok, some facts. Historically, in the beginning of the breed, Swabian Shepherd dogs (before they got crossed with Thuringian aka east German-Czech dogs and became German Shepherds) came in all colors. Different regions had different colors they preferred. The area of Brunswick, Germany (Lower Saxony) was noted for preferring dogs of a calico pattern in both orange and black and what we would probably call blue and black. Photos of them taken in the 1880s and 1890s show something that looks a good deal like the so-called 'Panda' dogs in the pictures. In the early years of the breed, what is now the classic black and tan saddle backed dog was rare and unusual. Since then, tastes have changed, and German Shepherd fanciers have become much more traditional in what they can and will accept in color and patterns and they make judgements based on color which have no relation to the dog's ability to work or their health or temperament. And yes, for reasons of pure snobbery, if you get one of these dogs, people who consider themselves purists will treat you to disdain and even be rude to you. Do not let them dictate to you. 

The "Panda" pattern in the pictures seems to me to be a re-occurance of a color pattern that was once prized and which decorated a great many superb 'real world' working dogs. That said, what do this breeder's dogs do? Do they work stock? track lost livestock? lost people? do they do service work? are they noted for steady, reliable temperaments? do they have cgcs? obedience titles? do social therapy? Whenever dogs are bred for some subjective view of 'pretty' without a thorough grounding in some kind of actual physical work, the dogs seem to suffer in health, physical soundness, or mental soundness. The Brunswick shepherds might have prefered their 'tiger spotted' dogs, as one translation called them--but overall soundness and working ability and actual performance always came first. 

As an aside, the Bearnese Mountain Dogs of Switzerland share Swabian Shepherd dog ancestors with the German Shepherd. The Swabian Shepherd dog is one of the oldest European breeds of shepherd dog, dating back 700 years in medieval records. I don't know what the Swiss added to their side of the equation, but I thought you'd find that an interesting, if trivial, fact. khawk


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## jone

Thank you. I understand. So if I am interested in a panda, I should look for evidence that this kennel has produced dogs that are "working" to ensure that they are not compromised mentally or intellectually. I am currently satisfied re. the temperament. 
That is very helpful. I suspect most people would presume the dog is a shepherd mix, of which there are countles examples. So maybe I won't have to face the disgust of the standard "purists". More likely I would be driven crazy by the question "what's the mix?"


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:The area of Brunswick, Germany (Lower Saxony) was noted for preferring dogs of a calico pattern in both orange and black and what we would probably call blue and black. Photos of them taken in the 1880s and 1890s show something that looks a good deal like the so-called 'Panda' dogs in the pictures. In the early years of the breed, what is now the classic black and tan saddle backed dog was rare and unusual.


Max von Stephanitz, who founded the German Shepherd breed by crossing sheep herding dogs from different areas to create the "ideal" Shepherd dog as he saw it, wrote pretty extensively about the origins of his breed and the colors.

The Brunswick dogs the poster above refers to is one of the different types of sheep herding dogs that Stephanitz talks about in his book, "The German Shepherd Dog in Word & Picture", although how many of them were actually used to create the German Shepherd breed is debatable. The Brunswick dogs shown in Stephanitz's book are merle in color, not colored like the "panda" Shepherds.

I think it's a little far fetched to state that "panda" colored dogs used to be the norm in German Shepherd dogs. They may have been the norm in sheep herding dogs in some regions of Germany, but not exactly the norm in the early German Shepherd breed. 

Looking at the photos of the original GSDs in the newly founded German Shepherd Club, they appear to be primarily sable. The book, which was published in 1925, also has a fair number of photos of GSDs that are sable and black-and-tan in color. 

I don't see any that resemble the "panda", other than in the first section, which discusses the origins of sheep herding dogs, and the various types found in different regions in Germany, but not GSDs specifically.



> Quote:So if I am interested in a panda, I should look for evidence that this kennel has produced dogs that are "working" to ensure that they are not compromised mentally or intellectually.


Yes, that was my original point - proof that they're breeding for something other an unusual coloring. The color should be of secondary importance to the dog's health, temperament, and working ability.


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## jone

Thanks for all the information. still wish I'd heard from someone's first hand experience, but you've all been very generous of time to help me understand. 
I've learned that some of the pandas from Phenom are doing agility, certified search and rescue, therapy, at least one is an AKC companion dog titled. I was sent pics of the dogs on scent trails, doing bite work, etc. The pups are given a temperament test before being homed.
I suppose this is what Historian and khawk are referring to.
Personally, I don't care for how most of them look anyway - but some are off the charts adorable.


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## meisha98

No offense to the Pandas but I think I'd prefer a more "common" line. Health issues aside, there is just so much more information and knowledge out there. I personally think they are different, but not for me. Thinking about it, I think I've come across one of these in my travels and thought the owner was lying when they told me it was a GSD. I think I actually asked them "GSD and what?" Whoops! LOL


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## onyx'girl

http://www.geocities.com/angelicshepherds/males.html
http://www.geocities.com/angelicshepherds/
This site has liver, blue and panda and coats. Located in N. Michigan(not the UP). 
I talked w/ the owner of the kennel when I was looking for Kacies breeder(Kacie looks like her Asia), she was very nice, but knew that she isn't breeding to the standard and would be chewed out on the GSD forums. She didn't want me to pass her site on to others...


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## jone

GSD and what? is exactly what I'd expect to hear nearly every single day. Reasonable question, but it has the potential to drive a person nuts over a course of a dog's lifetime.


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:GSD and what? is exactly what I'd expect to hear nearly every single day. Reasonable question, but it has the potential to drive a person nuts over a course of a dog's lifetime.


Be prepared to get this question with ANY color German Shepherd sooner or later. The people on here who have blacks have gotten, "That can't be a Shepherd, they don't come in black. That is a Lab mix." and the people who own whites have gotten similar responses. My red and black girl, Abby, who doesn't have much of a saddle gets a lot of, "What kinda mix is that?" and my Malinois gets, "What's that Shepherd mixed with?" and "Is that a puppy?"


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## jone

Really? I thought GSD's were widely recognized. I've never come across a dog who looks like my mix and we always hear "what breed is that". I was told she was 1/2 GSD when I got her, but no such luck. At least I can understand when people ask because no dogs look like her, {wonder where her 7 sibs ended up? they were all identical} I've seen dogs with similar coat or body, but combined w her markings and she's unique. My best guess is chow & border collie, although her disposition and personality don't match either of those breeds. And it still wouldn't explain her silver legs. So it's understandable that people wonder about her. I don't mind that so much, it's reasonable. I can imagine getting fed up explaining "pure GSD" over and over.
I've intened to do DNA testing eventually to resolve the mystery. But someone on this site cautioned me that the tests are unreliable.


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## onyx'girl

Bi-colors as well. Nobody knows that Onyx is a GSD if they aren't familiar with the breed.


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## lauramichelle

I know someone who owns a panda GSD. He is just like any other GSD. This particular one is a bit odd. He had definate panda markings as a puppy, but has he's gotten older....he barely looks any different than a b/t. He just looks like he has some diluted spots. Where his white markings where, they've kind of blended with his tan (which was a lighter tan anyways). He has sired a few litters. No pandas in any of his litters...but he's had some nice solid black pups out of his litters.


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## HarleyGirl52874

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:GSD and what? is exactly what I'd expect to hear nearly every single day. Reasonable question, but it has the potential to drive a person nuts over a course of a dog's lifetime.
> 
> 
> 
> Be prepared to get this question with ANY color German Shepherd sooner or later. The people on here who have blacks have gotten, "That can't be a Shepherd, they don't come in black. That is a Lab mix." and the people who own whites have gotten similar responses. My red and black girl, Abby, who doesn't have much of a saddle gets a lot of, "What kinda mix is that?" and my Malinois gets, "What's that Shepherd mixed with?" and "Is that a puppy?"
Click to expand...


Yes, I get asked alot if Suesse is a wolf mix since she is a sable. Although.. I admit I didn't know that there were sables till I got Springer, although he is a mix, and found this board.


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## Jessica H

I have never heard of that


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## emsoskar

Can they at least come up with something more exciting and regal than "Panda Shepherd?" lol


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## JerzeyGSD

> Originally Posted By: emsoskarCan they at least come up with something more exciting and regal than "Panda Shepherd?" lol


Haha!


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## Jessica H

Dozer is black/tan but mostly black and people always ask if he is a German Shepherd. I do not think his colors are that abnormal for a GSD but it is what people are used to seeing I guess.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: jone
> It isn't what I thought I was looking for, and certainly doesn't meet breed standard. But the less shed, less active, same intelligence part is tempting. {If it's true}


I think there's probably more marketing gimmick than truth in that.

Color is not genetically linked to health or temperament or anything else. It's just color. And therefore there's no reason to think that a simple genetic mutation of color alleles would have any affect whatsoever on shedding or temperament.


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: joneGSD and what? is exactly what I'd expect to hear nearly every single day. Reasonable question, but it has the potential to drive a person nuts over a course of a dog's lifetime.


I'm pretty used to that sort of thing. With my Golden it got to the point where I was VERY surprised when people said "Look, a Golden Retriever!" Rather than "Look, an Irish Setter!" or "Is that a Setter mix?" With my terrier (who was pretty much a mutt, probably mix of several terrier breeds, maybe Rat Terrier, Boston, JRT) for some reason people seemed to assume he was some actual breed most of the time and would ask me "what breed is that?" Well, either that or "Hey lookit the pitbull!"


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## jone

> Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: emsoskarCan they at least come up with something more exciting and regal than "Panda Shepherd?" lol
> 
> 
> 
> Haha!
Click to expand...

For real! Only a kid would want a panda. And they don't look like panda bears, where did that come from anyway.
I was looking at a panda from Phenom Kennels. But I'm bothered by the blankness in the pup's eyes. Very puppy like, but not GSD pup like. GS have a certain intensity and the intelligence is clearly there. A quick look at the eyes and you KNOW the brain is working. I don't know if this panda just took a bad photo or was sleepy or what. But it looks a little dopey. They are 100% GSD just with different coat pattern. Shouldn't they be equally smart? My kid has fallen in love with that puppy's photo - lots of kid appeal for sure. But if I wanted a GS, I want the GS brain. Why endure the energy and the shedding without that trade off!


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## BowWowMeow

Jone, 

How is your gsd puppy?


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## jone

She's great! She's getting lighter by the day and I'm ok with that! I've moved onto new anxiety about keeping her safe and healthy.
thanks for asking. You made me feel so much better the other night. And then I had that realization that I have some eccentric preference for dark colored everything. It all seemed so silly once I knew it wasn't a prejudice contained to the dog. Since I've surrounded myself by dark colored everything, it's going to be nice to have a little golden accent. She'll match my hair. It's going to be ok.
She's the smartest puppy ever, and a great addition to the family.


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## BowWowMeow

I'm so glad to hear that she's doing well and you've adjusted to her color. Post more pictures when you can!


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: jone
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: emsoskarCan they at least come up with something more exciting and regal than "Panda Shepherd?" lol
> 
> 
> 
> Haha!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For real! Only a kid would want a panda. And they don't look like panda bears, where did that come from anyway.
> I was looking at a panda from Phenom Kennels. But I'm bothered by the blankness in the pup's eyes. Very puppy like, but not GSD pup like. GS have a certain intensity and the intelligence is clearly there. A quick look at the eyes and you KNOW the brain is working. I don't know if this panda just took a bad photo or was sleepy or what. But it looks a little dopey. They are 100% GSD just with different coat pattern. Shouldn't they be equally smart? My kid has fallen in love with that puppy's photo - lots of kid appeal for sure. But if I wanted a GS, I want the GS brain. Why endure the energy and the shedding without that trade off!
Click to expand...

I don't think you can judge intelligence by a photo. Especially with a puppy.


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## jone

You're right. I've decided it's the lighter color eye, the white blaze, and black freckles that make it look naive. I'm sure she's bright.
I've done the research, plenty of the pandas are working. They are not defective in the intellect dept. I don't favor the appearance over the blk/tan tho.


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## honeypickle1

Yes, I am the proud owner of a Panda Shepherd, Honey Pickle. They are a wonderful breed and yes they are a GSD with a dominant color mutation gene. There has been a genetic study done by Dr. Mark Neff of UCLA at Davis. It has not been published yet; but you are always welcome to contact him or the breed founder, Cindy McCann at Phenom Shepherds.


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## honeypickle1

All real Panda Shepherd puppies are DNA'd.


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## sitstay

> Quote:They are a wonderful breed and yes they are a GSD with a dominant color mutation gene. There has been a genetic study done by Dr. Mark Neff of UCLA at Davis. It has not been published yet; but you are always welcome to contact him or the breed founder, Cindy McCann at Phenom Shepherds.


I thought the Panda was being marketed as a color variety of GSD, not a separate breed? There was so much effort put into "proving" the purebred status for those first couple of generations. 
Has that changed? Are they being sold as a different breed now?
Sheilah


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## Doggydog

Hey honeypickle! I've seen pics of your girl, what a beauty she is! I think she wins the most beautiful puppy ever award. 
I have a panda pup from Phenom, I actually found her after seeing this thread when I was intitially looking for a GSD. I think our dogs have the same dame, Lady Jayne.
Correct me if I'm wrong HP, but to answer Sheilah's question. When Frankie was born in 2000, it raised questions as to the breeder's integrity as there was doubt that her dame was kept safe from breeding with a random dog. So she set out to defend her reputation thru dna and genetic research which proved the dog was the product of the dame & sire. The coloring was found to be a spontaneous genetic mutation. To further learn about the genetics, researchers in Ca. encouraged her to breed so that more could be learned about the gene that caused the coloration. It was a surprise that it is a dominant gene. 75% of pups born to a panda marked GSD will be panda. These dogs are registered through AKC and also come with a dna certificate of authenticity. However, they are disqualified from showing. And anyone breeding GSD's to breed standard are not pleased to see dogs being breed that do not meet the standard. Therefore, there are efforts being made to establish them as their own breed. Then they wouldn't experience the scorn of a GSD purist, will not be the ruin of the GSD standard, and can enter showrings despite their markings. I believe WGSD's are now recognized as a seperate breed for similiar reasons. 
I hope I explained that properly. My panda is smart and in every other way a typical GSD. In the dark, I really am convinced. But looking at her color, I still feel like it can't be! lol.


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## Doggydog




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## Doggydog

And yes I am asked daily, what kind of dog is that? Someone even said, hope you didn't pay for that when the breeder told you it was GSD, cuz it's not pure. 
It's fun conversation though, I don't mind. Some people's ideas of what she's mixed with are reasonable, some are just goofy. I've heard Berner, Australian sheepdog, border collie, black lab, springer, just to name a few. She really attracts attention for certain. 
The other day someone asked what, when I said GSD they replied, but she's so small? We both laughed after I told him she's only 4 months old. The poor GSD that would carry those ears & paws into adulthood!


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## honeypickle1

Hi. You explained it wonderfully and yes my Honey Pickles mom is Jayne. She is in the picture I saw earlier on this thread. My girl's name is Honey Pickle. What is you baby's name. I also own one of Cindy's white shepherds, Ty. His mom is Sugar who has won just about everything on earth and his sire is Willie who is well on his way. Cindy has been a breeder for over 30 years and was on the board of GSDs in Ohio for some time. She is very committed to the Panda breed and yes they all are dna'd and come with certification of this. They are being shown right now with Rarities and Rare Breed Club of Southern Ontario and Arba showed a couple of weeks ago. Also, Cindy is very committed to the GSD breed. She knows a lot about the breed. The first time I saw the panda shepherd; I was hooked. They are wonderful addition to any family. I consider myself fortunate in having found Cindy and her wonderful dogs. Mine have been a delight to me.


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## honeypickle1

LOL I have heard all the stories too. Btw, Honey Pickle is 80 lbs.


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## honeypickle1

What a sweetie. Do you know how to download pictures on this forum?


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## honeypickle1

I just wanted to say one more thing about the Panda Shepherd. 

We are just like the White Shepherds 100 Percent pure but of a different color and hope someday to be a recognized breed of our own like the white shepherds. 

I see you have a tortie kitty. I just lost my very last siamese tortie from a tumor in her nose. She was 19 years old and I miss her so much.


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## honeypickle1

That's my Panda Shepherd baby's Mama.


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## Chicagocanine

Personally I think the Pandas are gorgeous. I spoke to Cindy when I was looking into getting a German Shepherd puppy and I could tell she was very knowledgeable about the breed and about her lines/dogs. I am still interested in possibly getting a dog from her in the future although this time I ended up getting an adult GSD from someone in Michigan instead of buying a puppy.


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## Doggydog

Aww. Sorry about kitty. You do have a liking for the unusual, a tortie siamese is news to me. I just adopted mine a few months ago, she has a crazy paint job esp on her face. We lost our 21 yr old calico last spring so I know how you must feel. 
I personally don't care if pandas get seperate recognition or not. But if it stops the complainers, then it must be the best thing to do. 
I adore my panda. She's lovely. I couldn't be happier. 
Posting pics here is a bit of an ordeal. You need a photo bucket account, which is free. Upload pics there and then select the pic, cut & paste the img code to this window. Not difficult, just a pita.


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## sitstay

Thanks for the answer. It makes sense now. I remember when the color mutation first became news and how she had to really push to get the AKC to issue papers. 
Sheilah


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## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: doggydog...
> These dogs are registered through AKC and also come with a dna certificate of authenticity. However, they are disqualified from showing. And anyone breeding GSD's to breed standard are not pleased to see dogs being breed that do not meet the standard. Therefore, there are efforts being made to establish them as their own breed. Then they wouldn't experience the scorn of a GSD purist, will not be the ruin of the GSD standard, and can enter showrings despite their markings. I believe WGSD's are now recognized as a seperate breed for similiar reasons.
> ...


I'm curious about one thing. Where in the AKC's GSD standard does the Panda coloration fall under the disqualification rule? I'm not saying one would win in the comformation ring, I just can't find any mention where the coloration would get disqualified. 

The Disqualifications for the AKC Breed Standard are listed as follows: 
CROPPED OR HANGING EARS. 
DOGS WITH NOSES NOT PREDOMINANTLY BLACK. 
UNDERSHOT JAW. 
DOCKED TAIL. 
WHITE DOGS. 
ANY DOG THAT ATTEMPTS TO BITE THE JUDGE. 
Approved 2/11/78, reformatted 7/11/94.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/index.cfm

The WGSD is not recognized as a separate breed with AKC, however, the color white can be shown in UKC comformantion shows under two separate breeds - dogs registered as either GSDs colored white, or as White Shepherds. In some countries, the Berger Blanc Suisse/White Swiss Shepherd Dog, which are WGSDs, are recognized as a separate breed.


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## honeypickle1

Thank you. I can personally testify to her dogs as I mentioned previously that I have a white shepherd and a panda from her. Both have fantastic personalities. They can't wait to be loved and love. Curious as heck too. They have a game where Honey Pickle will go hide behind say the barbque while Ty looks for her. It's the funniest thing because she will peek out to see if he has found her. They play that game forever. 

I have found our dogs choose us and I will bet your GSD loves you as much as you love her/him. I have two rescues myself; a pharoah hound(the loudest little dog you have ever heard)and a cattle dog who is always one step ahead of you in the smarts department.


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## honeypickle1

I love the tortie siamese sables as they are always changing colors. She looked exactly like a seal point when I got her; but they said she would change and she did.

Hiopefully this picture of Honey Pickle will come through.


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## Doggydog

Gayle,
Thanks for the information. I am very ignorant about show, but I understood that the white pigmentation is incorrect and does not meet the breed standard. Guess I should use google b4 believing everything I hear. What is the rare breed conformation? 
My panda is a tri-color and is registered as a blk/tan since there is no option for panda or tri-color.

Honeypickle's Mom, this is kind of exciting to meet you here. Jiva is naturally very curious also. One of the first traits I noticed about her. Curious and confident. I'm not surprised to hear HP is 80 lbs, Cindy advised me that the pandas are on the large size. Jiva was biggest of the litter. I'm guessing she'll be 75 or 80 by next summer. How much did HP's markings change when she matured? I saw her puppy pics somewhere online, she was a beautiful puppy! And a beautiful dog. Jiva is hitting her growing up gangly awkward looking phase, but I think she's adorable. Lady Jayne made some lovely offspring. I had noticed HP had white feathering at the top of her white blaze. Jiva had that too, but it's going away now. 
My older dog plays hide n seek with my daughter or any object. We recently hid plastic eggs for her. She found all but one. After she'd given up, Jiva came rushing up and dropped it on my lap! We were so surprised that she understood because we hadn't intended to train her this yet, thinking it too advanced for 4 months. The brain is working. Now if she'd just stop peeing on the floors! Did HP housetrain slowly? I've had Jiva 3 wks and only the past few days have I seen light at the end of that tunnel. And she's so bright, obedience and tricks come so easy.


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## Doggydog

Here's more pics, couldn't resist.


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## honeypickle1

She is adorable. Did you see the pic someone posted of Jivi and Honey Pickle's mom, Lady Jayne on this thread? Honey Pickle is tri color too.

You are not ignorant about shows? LOL I have quite a few stories both good and not so good. My Ty's (white shepherd) mom, Sugar, just won her championshp with UKC and she made BOS 5 out of 6 six times with ARBA recently and Ty won his international/national baby championship with IABCA show when he was 3 months old and won first in some UKC shows; but didn't get any points because he was to young. All I can pretty much say I am sure of is Cindy has some great dogs. 

I really love showing. And, no we don't always bring something home. It can be a lot of fun and you learn a lot about your breed and get to meet others. Example of what not to do in show ring below: ROTFLOL










Yep, it can take sometimes a while to potty train those pups. I would be rich if I was paid for everytime I put the pups out. When they were very young; it seemed like about every 30 minutes.


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## honeypickle1

Honey Pickle as a little pup.


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## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: doggydogGayle,
> Thanks for the information. I am very ignorant about show, but I understood that the white pigmentation is incorrect and does not meet the breed standard. Guess I should use google b4 believing everything I hear. What is the rare breed conformation?
> My panda is a tri-color and is registered as a blk/tan since there is no option for panda or tri-color.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't call it ignorant about showing, we all learn as we go along. Check out the AKC GSD breed standard.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/index.cfm

There area lot of rare breed organizations such as American Rare Breed Association (ARBA) which recognize rare breeds. WGSDs are usually allowed to show in the rare breed shows because of the AKC DQ of the color white. Each rare breed organization has its own breed standard and what dogs are allowed to register and show.
http://www.arba.org/HerdingGroup.htm


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## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1...
> My Ty's (white shepherd) mom, Sugar, just won her championshp with UKC and she made BOS 5 out of 6 six times with ARBA recently and Ty won his international/national baby championship with IABCA show when he was 3 months old and won first in some UKC shows; but didn't get any points because he was to young.
> 
> ...


Ty's a pretty pup!!! We're "dog-in-laws". I checked Ty's mom, Sugar (Furrari's Sweet Lewcinkas), and discovered she's realated to my JR (Amherst's Lake Dallas who was black/red), Ringer, Honey (who were black/tan), Slider, Bruiser (who are black/tan blanket coats) & Faith (who is white).
http://www.awsaclub.com/gallery/furraris_sweet_lewcinkas.htm


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## honeypickle1

Well now; you see. You get to meet so many nice people who you also find out are relatives. Can you get any better than that. 

This is an earlier picture of Ty. He is a little over a year now and I have been really bad about taking pictures. 










Nice to have you in the family.


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## honeypickle1

Btw, I love your picture gallery. Really creative and, of course, look at the gorgeous subjects. You can't go wrong there.


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## honeypickle1

Sorry, I mistyped your baby's name. She is beautiful.


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## Chicagocanine

Wow they are all so gorgeous! Great photos guys!

Have you seen the sable "Pandas" those are really nice looking dogs too.

Example (from Phenom Shepherds website)--


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## honeypickle1

Yes, those are Cindy's dogs. They are really beautiful. She is Phenom Shepherds. Go and look up Johnnie. He is to die for He's on her site too. He is truely a remarkable Panda. One of the best tempered dogs I have seen and a really good representative of the Pandas. Was showing in a Rarities show and another dog was biting him in the ring; but Johnnie just ignored him and got down to business.


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## Doggydog

There area lot of rare breed organizations such as American Rare Breed Association (ARBA) which recognize rare breeds. WGSDs are usually allowed to show in the rare breed shows because of the AKC DQ of the color white. 

I'd heard something about this, maybe that's where I got the idea that whites were seperated. Someone with a white told me this too. 
That's cool you're related. It's a family reunion.

HP, I did review this thread and see the pic of The Lady. Missed it before because I didn't realize at the time that it was the Mum to the puppy I was getting. That's great that you're having so much success with Ty. He's sooo cute. Take a new pic please. 
My girl's sire was Darth Raider. He's gorgeous. 
Thanks for the pics. I hadn't seen a grown sable panda. There's supposed to be one not too far from us, maybe one day we'll meet. I've only seen fuzzy pics of Johnny. 
Cindy does have more adorable pups now. In case anyone is tempted. 
FYI Chicagocanine!


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## honeypickle1

I am so glad we are able to get in contact. You have a beautiful girl and maybe someday, Ty, HoneyPickle and Jiva can meet each other as well as us. Honey Pickles sire is Lex.

Below is a picture of Johnnie at 18 months. He is gorgeous.










Enjoy


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## Doggydog

That's funny, while you were posting Johnnie's pic, I was at Phenom's site checking him out. 
Yes, it would be good to meet some day. Well if you ever do a show in NY....
It would be fun to see the dog's have a get together. We recently saw a white GSD in the dog run and Jiva was so excited when she spotted him. I think she knew he looked familiar like Cindy's dogs so she ran happily over to him and then looked so puzzled that he didn't smell familiar.


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## AbbyK9

Wouldn't it make more sense to take this personal conversation into PMs?


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## honeypickle1

You just never know. It could happen. Of course Texas is a long way; but I think I might manage. Same goes for here in Texas. 

Johnnie is a real beauty; isn't he. I am so in love with him.


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## honeypickle1

Sorry.


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: doggydog
> Cindy does have more adorable pups now. In case anyone is tempted.
> FYI Chicagocanine!


Yeah I saw that she had pups available when I went to the site to find the sable photo... So tempting!


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## honeypickle1

Yes, she does and I am thrilled.


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## khurley

> Originally Posted By: HistorianWouldn't it make more sense to take this personal conversation into PMs?


Yes, let's do get back and track a bit. Conversations specifically between two members that are of any length would probably be better as PM's.









That said, just a few things to point out while browsing through this thread.....It's been mentioned previously, but I feel bears reiterating....a mutation in coloring is not going to have a bearing upon a dog's temperament or the amount it sheds. I've heard these claims with white GSDs as well....calmer, friendlier.....if the dogs are more laid back or don't have as much drive it has nothing to do with the color of their coat but with the temperaments of the dogs they are breeding.


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## honeypickle1

Looked at your site. Great looking dogs. One of my trainers trains mals for the state police departments. 

Btw, I support the military and my late Dad flew the Burma Hump in WWII


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## honeypickle1

Sorry, we never claimed that the color gene has any bearing on temperment. I would think temperment has mainly to do with the lines.


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## Amaruq

No it doesn't have anything to do with the color of a dog. However, there are so many people that breed for one particular trait (be it a color, structure, size or coat) and they disregard the true characteristics that make a German Shepherd Dog what a German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be a working dog that can tend to the sheep all day and guard the family at night; to work as a police or military dog; as a guide dog etc.. When ANYONE breeds for other than the total package (health, temperament, working ability, correct structure etc) that is laid out by the founder of the breed it is doing a disservice to the breed as a whole.


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## honeypickle1

I agree and the breed founder of the Panda Shepherd is doing all of this. Honey Pickle is training to be a therapy dog and Ty white shepherd may do agility. We are doing everything we can to assure this breed is healthy; etc and will continue to do into the future. 

I can't tell you how many times I have said I believe the GSD is a guardian dog; not just a herding dog; which some do very well at. They are one of the most loyal dogs I have ever seen. I respect them greatly.


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## Doggydog

sorry historian. i was replying to messages made by several posters. didn't mean to bug you. you don't have to read it you know. thanks for the suggestion

Kimberley, I agree with you. I have never claimed the pandas were different. In fact, just a few posts ago I said mine is every bit a typical GSD. I feel in love with the breed in 1980 when I got my first dog. Lucky me the first was the best. 

chicagocanine, honeypickle, gayle, sheilah, you're all welcome to pm me if you like to continue the conversation about panda shepherds.


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## kelso

I have seen many posts that go on between specific people(s) longer than this one has. No big deal in my opinion









The conversation isn't hurting anyone. I am enjoying the pics and learning more about pandas as I know nothing about them. 

Thanks for sharing the pics


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1I agree and the breed founder of the Panda Shepherd is doing all of this. Honey Pickle is training to be a therapy dog and Ty white shepherd may do agility. We are doing everything we can to assure this breed is healthy; etc and will continue to do into the future.
> 
> I can't tell you how many times I have said I believe the GSD is a guardian dog; not just a herding dog; which some do very well at. They are one of the most loyal dogs I have ever seen. I respect them greatly.


With all do respect GSD's were meant to do more than agility... but never mind. Glad you are happy with yours. I'll stick with my working lines.


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## honeypickle1

So true. I confess I don't know much about working lines having never really explored them; I understand that the Pandas have a history of some impressive working lines in their backgrounds.


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## Doggydog

Amaruq,
My panda's sire is working line. His entire lineage as far back as I can see are sch II or sch III titiled. 
Anyway, we wanted a family dog. One that's smart and active and beautiful. That's why we have a GS. 

hey ladies, r we off the pm thing then? lol


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## Amaruq

SCHII and III do not mean a dog is a working line. In Germany ALL breeding dogs have to have at least a SCH 1 title in order for the pups to be registered.


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## honeypickle1

What if the dog is not from Germany?


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> With all do respect GSD's were meant to do more than agility... but never mind. Glad you are happy with yours. I'll stick with my working lines.


I don't think there is anything wrong with show lines or doing agility with your dog.
Bianca is mostly German show lines too, and she is a great dog.
Agility is a wonderful sport to do with your dog, and I think doing any dog sport shows someone is a dedicated owner.


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## Amaruq

I was not referring to an ACTIVITY with your dog. Agility is GREAT but it is not a true test of breed worthiness in my opinion.


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## honeypickle1

What do you mean exactly when you say working lines? Do you mean police work, security work; etc?

I personally don't have the skills to begin handling that type of dog and don't misunderstand; there is definately a place for them and I admire them and the dedicated work it must take. I would think first of all they need to be a high prey or atleast more prey oriented than your normal dog. I would also think it takes a really experienced handler too.

Also, I realize the necessity of keeping these lines from leaving as their lines are valuable to the breed itself. I hope I said that right.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1What if the dog is not from Germany?


Many people in this country follow the SV rules for breeding as well which means the dog has to be titled in SCH or HGH style herding and a show rating. Others will do the working titles to prove that the dog is capable of doing what it was intended to do. Others will breed any two dogs as long as they are both "have papers" from the AKC stating that they are purebred dogs. I just prefer to OWN dogs that are capable of what the breed was intended for when it was originated. Not just GSD but ANY breed of dog, IMO should be able to do what it was intended to do before it is bred. If more people felt that way there would be far fewer dogs in shelters/rescues but that is a whole other discussion. 

Sorry I was NOT trying to spin this off topic......


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## angelaw

Working lines refer to the types of dogs in the pedigree, showlines is another. Showlines are typically black/red. Working lines are everything else, lol. All dogs in Germany are required to have a working title (sch, or herding) in order to be bred. Dogs not from Germany but from other countries, some follow the FCI breed standards and have their own requirements. The USA has the AKC which allows any 2 dogs of the same breed to be thrown together, as long as they both have full registration. They don't care if there are titles, health clearances, or if they're even liver or blue. If you've got akc papers you can breed your dogs. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with working ability. 

Working ability is the ability for the dog to have pressure put on him and not cave or run away. Agility doesn't test this, therapy work doesn't test this. SAR shows tracking and stamina and obedience. Schutzhund shows the dog isn't going to back down from a threat, can track and do obedience without caving.


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## Doggydog

Isn't it great that there's so many choices. There's a dog for everyone's needs. If someone needs their dog to have a job, that's great then that there are working lines that can be trained to work. 
I am clearly not one to be picky about the ideal background. I rescued one dog from a kill shelter, my mix breed I found in a bucket on the street. They both worked out to be great dogs. 

I want a clever pet that we can have fun with. Most likely she'll be doing lots of fetching hiking and swimming. Despite the critics opinions, I think my dog is great and she makes us happy. We're a family who enjoy sharing our lives with dogs. Jiva seems in every other way like any GSD I've ever known. 
My daughter is interested in doing agility training with Jiva. She seems well suited to the sport and I think they'd enjoy it, so we may. Jiva also shows talent in finding hidden objects. I don't know if that falls in with tracking or sar. Any way, I won't put my dog to work, but if we do anything sport or work related it will be for pleasure. 
Do you do anything special with Bianca?


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## honeypickle1

No offense taken. I agree that it is very important to continue these lines. It is very much a part of the breed and definately should not be lost. I would venture to say its part of the foundation of the breed and to lose this foundation would be a real loss.


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## Doggydog

I'm not breeding, whether Jiva shows the work drive intensity or not. So no worries that I'm destroying the breed. Jiva is naturally very confident and not fearful. I haven't had the opportunity to see her drive or focus tested, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if she's got workability.
Thanks for the explanation Angela.


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## honeypickle1

That's one of the reasons I have always admired and loved the GSD. When you command this dog; they do not hesitate; at least that's what I have observed.


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## Amaruq

I guess my point is NO breed of working/herding dog SHOULD be bred just for a color or for a "pet" as there will be "pets" from even the best working litters. IMO breeding dogs that do not have the ability to do the job originally intended for the breed (regardless of the breed) is the main reason there are so many animals dying in shelters in this country. Breeding for a "rare" color to me is even less desirable than breeding "pets" because they have AKC papers.


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## honeypickle1

Thank you so much for your explanation. I appreciate your knowledge.


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## honeypickle1

People need to really be educated about handling dogs and why. I have worked and supported several shelters. I have seen dogs who have been tied up which by the way in the hands of an incompent boob that only sees this dog as a mean protector has only made the dog more agressive. I have seen dogs, starved, beaten, left out in open air kennels in hurricanes and yes even had their ears cut with scissors.


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## angelaw

what does this have to do with the subject? i just got completely lost here.


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## Doggydog

Hi HP, yes I agree. There are good reasons we love our german shepherds and we all would suffer if the base becomes compromised. Too bad it's so easy to breed and there are so many breeders who don't know or care what they're doing.


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## honeypickle1

I don't see why you are thrown off. Its about education of the breed.


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## angelaw

But by this:

"I want a clever pet that we can have fun with. Most likely she'll be doing lots of fetching hiking and swimming. Despite the critics opinions, I think my dog is great and she makes us happy. We're a family who enjoy sharing our lives with dogs. Jiva seems in every other way like any GSD I've ever known."

just pets and not requiring more than just a nice pet DOES compromise the breed.


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## Doggydog

> Originally Posted By: Angela_Wwhat does this have to do with the subject? i just got completely lost here.


LOL
aaah. not much. Except that there seems to be a belief that the panda's are not well breed dogs and so the discussion went out into left field. I'm still very much talking about my panda.


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## honeypickle1

You can't breed the bad out of the dog; but you can breed the good in. I do believe good breeders understand that.


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## honeypickle1

All I was doing was responding to a part of Amarug's reply regarding dog shelters. That's all Geez, can't we go off a little in left field.


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## Amaruq

If you can't breed bad out how can you breed good in? That statement seems contradictory to me?


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## honeypickle1

It does; doesn't it? I am referring to say dogs with bad hips. In order to not continuing breeding bad hips; don't breed the dog especially with a history of bad hips; use one that has good hips and a history of good hips.


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## honeypickle1

Now flame away. LOL


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## Doggydog

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WBut by this:
> 
> "I want a clever pet that we can have fun with. Most likely she'll be doing lots of fetching hiking and swimming. Despite the critics opinions, I think my dog is great and she makes us happy. We're a family who enjoy sharing our lives with dogs. Jiva seems in every other way like any GSD I've ever known."
> 
> just pets and not requiring more than just a nice pet DOES compromise the breed.


I was responding to the notion that something is wrong with my dog if it's not working. Maybe I don't want it to work. I still respect and love the breed because it can work. How am I compromising the breed because I don't care if my dog can work with the police department? And if more than 20 dogs in the sire's line are sch titled, doesn't that indicate the dog is tested and can work under pressure? Shouldn't my panda have likely inherited that ability? 
Just because she has white markings doesn't mean she's lost her brains or her guts.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1It does; doesn't it? I am referring to say dogs with bad hips. In order to not continuing breeding bad hips; don't breed the dog especially with a history of bad hips; use one that has good hips and a history of good hips.










I guess I am still confused. Again breeding just for one thing or another will ruin the gene pool AND the breed a whole. Breeders need to look at the TOTAL package that a dog presents. Not just hips, or color, or structure or working ability. GOOD breeders will be brutally honest about their breeding stock and see what needs to be improved and what needs to be maintained and find a potential mate for their dog that has the qualities they want to improve on AS WELL as the qualities they wish to maintain. 

MY first post on this was regarding the claim that early Panda "breeders" were encourage to produce more Pandas for genetic research...... NOTHING to do with working abilities, structure or health of the breed as a whole. Breeding for genetic research to me just reminds me of a bunch of lab rats running in their little wheels and that is NOT *my* mental picture of what a German Shepherd of any color should be.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Now flame away. LOL


I didn't realize I was flaming anyone.


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## angelaw

But you SHOULD care if your dog can work. If more people like you DON'T care about the dogs abilities, then you've essentially got watered down dogs, and they are no longer german shepherds. Look at the decline of the american lines over the last 30 years. Bred because it was pretty, not because it could work. Showlines are heading in the same direction if showline breeders only concentrate on showing.

Doberman's are another breed that has been basically destroyed by people wanting pretty and only wanting pets. Not too many you see doing schutzhund anymore. I know of 2 in my area within about 20 clubs. 

If you want a dog that's watered down, then please get a golden or a lab. Alot of those are already ruined.


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## honeypickle1

I believe that is a part of what the Panda breed founder had in mind while developing this breed. She doesn't want to lose the foundation of the breed anymore than any good breeder. She wants the best breed possible and she is doing an outstanding job; especially when she is choosing sires of her litters. If color is also important; so be it. I personally love color.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1I believe that is a part of what the Panda breed founder had in mind while developing this breed. She doesn't want to lose the foundation of the breed anymore than any good breeder. She wants the best breed possible and she is doing an outstanding job; especially when she is choosing sires of her litters. If color is also important; so be it. I personally love color.


Are they now a separate breed???? Last I knew it was supposed to be a "rare"color of the German Shepherd Dog. Now since she is a founder I assume they are their own "breed"?


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WBut you SHOULD care if your dog can work. If more people like you DON'T care about the dogs abilities, then you've essentially got watered down dogs, and they are no longer german shepherds. Look at the decline of the american lines over the last 30 years. Bred because it was pretty, not because it could work. Showlines are heading in the same direction if showline breeders only concentrate on showing.
> 
> Doberman's are another breed that has been basically destroyed by people wanting pretty and only wanting pets. Not too many you see doing schutzhund anymore. I know of 2 in my area within about 20 clubs.
> 
> If you want a dog that's watered down, then please get a golden or a lab. Alot of those are already ruined.


In an even shorter time period I have seen a vast difference in border collies too. Show lines (AKC ) and field dogs already have a very different look to them.


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## honeypickle1

Btw, the Panda Shephed is an American breed.


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## angelaw

Is it registered as a german shepherd or a panda shepherd?

never mind, not listed on akc's site as a breed, so no it's not. 

people think labradoodles are breeds too and all those other "exotic" breeds which are nothing more than mutts. (not saying panda's are as supposedly the dna verifies)


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:
> I was responding to the notion that something is wrong with my dog if it's not working. Maybe I don't want it to work. I still respect and love the breed because it can work.


I think you and Angela_W are misunderstanding each other.

The point people are trying to make is this: Max von Stephanitz founded the German Shepherd breed in the late 1800's from existing herding dogs to create an ideal working dog who would be suited for a wide range of work, from herding sheep to chasing down criminals for the police. 

That is the foundation of the breed, working ability. 

Stephanitz himself said that "no good dog is a bad color". He was not so much concerned with the color of the dog IF the dog possessed the correct ABILITIES that he created his breed to have. 

Stephanitz said that "German Shepherd Dog breeding is working dog breeding." What he meant by this is that ALL German Shepherds SHOULD have the ABILITY to work, regardless of whether the dog actually does the work. A dog with the ability to work can make a great explosives dog for the local police K-9 unit and it can be a great pet for a dedicated owner. But the point is, the ability has to be there.

The problem that Angela was trying to point out is that in many of the lines, the breeders get stuck on an idea - how the dog should LOOK more than how it should ACT - and, as a result, they end up neglecting the working ability for the sake of something else. That means they are neglecting the breed's foundation. What they breed may LOOK like a German Shepherd, but if the dog does not have the working ABILITY and working DRIVE to do what its breed was intended to do, then it's not really a German Shepherd in anything other than looks.

When a breeder gets stuck on breeding black dogs or white dogs or blue dogs or liver dogs, and doesn't take them into herding trials or anything else, but focuses solely on the color and "how great a pet" they will make, then they have lost what it is to breed Shepherds.

Just because you don't WANT to work your dog doesn't mean your dog should not have the ABILITY to work. Titles on the parents (not the grandparents or great-grandparents) can be an indication of what you might expect in a litter, but just with people, not every puppy (or every kid) inherits the traits of their parents. My dad is brilliant with maths and physics - I'm completely useless in that area. Your dog's parents might be titled, but your dog may not have inherited that. If your dog's parents are not titled but the grandparents and generations further back are, then the parents may not have inherited that ability and your dog may not have, either. The only way to find out if your dog has that ability is to test your dog.


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## honeypickle1

Do you guys really think we don't understand that? You are very mistaken. My family owned the very first North American herd of Simmental cattle in America with the top bull, Verdi. We kept our herd to foundation standards while breeding healthy animals. However, not everyone did and the North American Simmental looks very different than our herds. Now they are waking up to this fact and I hope they return to the standard.


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## Amaruq

Thank you, Chris. That is what I have been trying to point out.


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## Doggydog

I never said I don't care if my dog can't work. I said I don't care if my dog does work. 
All GSD's "work", they are a working breed and even I know they need a "job". But I don't intend to enroll my dog in the military. Maybe you're dogs work. That's great. But it's absurd to suggest that if my dog doesn't have a working job that I am ruining the line. 

And Phenom is not breeding merely for color. Otherwise my dog wouldn't have the sire she does, nor the temperment and play/work drive that she does.



> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1
> 
> 
> 
> Are they now a separate breed???? Last I knew it was supposed to be a "rare"color of the German Shepherd Dog. Now since she is a founder I assume they are their own "breed"?
Click to expand...

Oh boy. here we go in circles. 
I can't decide if this is fun or just annoying at this point. Jeez


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## angelaw

If you don't want to be corrected, then post facts. The german shepherd dog was NOT founded by the panda breeder. To say so is an insult to the breed, sorry. We try to clarify in case anyone else happens among posts, we don't want them getting incorrect information.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: doggydogI never said I don't care if my dog can't work. I said I don't care if my dog does work.
> All GSD's "work", they are a working breed and even I know they need a "job". But I don't intend to enroll my dog in the military. Maybe you're dogs work. That's great. But it's absurd to suggest that if my dog doesn't have a working job that I am ruining the line.
> 
> And Phenom is not breeding merely for color. Otherwise my dog wouldn't have the sire she does, nor the temperment and play/work drive that she does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1
> 
> 
> 
> Are they now a separate breed???? Last I knew it was supposed to be a "rare"color of the German Shepherd Dog. Now since she is a founder I assume they are their own "breed"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh boy. here we go in circles.
> I can't decide if this is fun or just annoying at this point. Jeez
Click to expand...

I asked a question as I am trying to learn. I read through this thread and at one point they are a German Shepherd and others refer to Pandas as if they are there own breed.


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## honeypickle1

The Panda Shepherd was never intended to be a designer breed. It is intended to be an American breed. I have never thought it wa the intention of the breed founder to go in the direction of the designer dogs.


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## angelaw

Well the AKC doesn't recognize it as such. So IMO not much different than the designer dogs. Breeding for "panda" colors is pretty designer, imo. 

With that, onto something else.


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## honeypickle1

Also, in developing the German Shepherd dog; weren't there originally other breeds involved. You have to start somewhere.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1The Panda Shepherd was never intended to be a designer breed. It is intended to be an American breed. I have never thought it wa the intention of the breed founder to go in the direction of the designer dogs.


That still does not answer my question. Either they are a GSD with a "rare" color/pattern/mutation or they are a separate breed. *I* do not know which they are and apparently no one else does either.


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## angelaw

true, but then don't call it a gsd with a new undiscovered color. 

supposedly a rare mutation. it's not any different than breeding for blues or breeding for lives I guess.


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:All GSD's "work", they are a working breed and even I know they need a "job".


I'm not sure whether you are actually reading any of the posts on this thread or not, but the sentence above makes me believe you don't.

NOT all GSDs work. 
NOT all GSDs have working ability.
NOT all GSDs have working drive.

That's what people are trying to say. Breeders who focus on producing pets, producing "oversized" dogs, producing specific colors, or producing show-line dogs that meet the current "ideal" dog, loose focus on working ability. They're essentially breeding out working ability in their lines because they don't care about it.

That's why it's important to get a breeder that WORKS his or her own dogs and titles them prior to breeding. Not someone who buys titled dogs and breeds them, not someone whose breeding stock is from titled parents, but someone who actually WORKS their own dogs and, based on that, decides which of them have the correct abilities a German Shepherd should have - BEFORE breeding them.

THAT is a good breeder.


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## honeypickle1

Sorry, but other registries do recognize the Panda Shepherd as a separate breed.


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## Amaruq

What registries?


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## angelaw

Yes but you said an AMERICAN breed. The only recognized registry in the US is the AKC, they are NOT recognized as a breed with them. UKC does NOT count. CKC I think will register anything. BUT it's not the FCI (world recognized) registry. Only 1 registry allowed per country. For the US it's AKC.


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## honeypickle1

Very well said.


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## Amaruq

Well said, Chris. I could have sworn that was basically what I have been saying but perhaps you are just more clear than I am!


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## honeypickle1

I must say though you are misunderstanding what doggiedoo is saying.


----------



## honeypickle1

Why doesn't UKC count? Rarities and Rare Breeds of Southwestern Ontario recognize them. There are the Rare Breeds whether you discount them or not; people who show in AKC will show in these groups too.


----------



## honeypickle1

Sorry doggydog. I got excited and mistyped your name.


----------



## angelaw

UKC registry IS NOT the registry recognized for the USA. AKC is. Only 1 allowed per country. Oh and Panda shepherds aren't on their list either. http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/WebPages/LrnBreedInfoFullList


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:I must say though you are misunderstanding what doggiedoo is saying.


I think that part of the difficulties people are having in understanding Doggydad and you is that we don't know whom you're responding to or what part of their statements you're responding to. It would be easy for you both to clear that up by saying @Angela_W (for example) if you're talking to her, or quoting what you're responding to. Right now, you two are very hard to follow.

And if you know what people are misunderstanding, please feel free to clarify. Just stating people are misunderstanding is of little help.


----------



## honeypickle1

It is a dominate color mutation gene. It is different from spotting, livers and blues. Dr. Neff UCLA at Davis will verify this.


----------



## honeypickle1

Sorry about that. Will do.


----------



## Amaruq

You are the one that said it was an "American Breed". The only internationally accepted registration for American dogs is the AKC, the American Kennel Club. USA (Schutzhund which now has a registry I believe), UKC and CKC (Continental) registries are not acceptable registries Internationally. Many people pass of mixed breed dogs with "papers" from the CKC (continental not Canadian) I have heard of folks doing the same with UKC as well.


----------



## honeypickle1

Oops Angela, I should have said your name.


----------



## Doggydog

It's that HP & I already answered this question a few pages ago. 

Like I've already said, my panda GSD is registered through AKC under blk/tan. Just because I don't intend to work my dog in no way means I want a dog who can't work. I had GSD for 15 yrs. I do know that they need "work". I know they herd and protect. 
But to suggest that my dog is incapable of performing to the breed's standard merely because she has white pigment is incorrect. Saying that I am watering down the breed because I don't care to enroll my dog in protection programs is incorrect. Like I've already said a few times - I prefer GSD because they can work, it doesn't mean I wish to "work" mine.


> Originally Posted By: Angela_WIf you don't want to be corrected, then post facts. The german shepherd dog was NOT founded by the panda breeder. To say so is an insult to the breed, sorry. We try to clarify in case anyone else happens among posts, we don't want them getting incorrect information.


who said this? I must have missed it? wasn't me.


----------



## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1I believe that is a part of what the Panda breed founder had in mind while developing this breed. She doesn't want to lose the foundation of the breed anymore than any good breeder. She wants the best breed possible and she is doing an outstanding job; especially when she is choosing sires of her litters. If color is also important; so be it. I personally love color.


HP, 
Please believe me, I'm not trying to pick on you ... but the Panda Shepherd is not a separate breed, it's a GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG of a different color ("Panda pattern", piebald, tri-color not sure how the color/pattern is defined). 

The breed founder is Max von Stephanitz, not Cindy McCann! If the Panda Shepherd ever becomes a separate breed accepted by AKC, FCI, or other major international kennel clubs, then give Cindy credit, but until then, please give credit to where credit is due - Max von Stephanitz.


----------



## angelaw

So then it IS a gsd and not a panda shepherd per that post correct? just a normal gsd with a mutated gene. so there's no founder as it's not a sep. breed 

you have colors, patterns, then dilution genes, coat genes, so where does this dominate color mutation gene come in? If it's dominate then why aren't all gsd's this color? Is it dominate over sable which is THE dominant color? where does it fit in?


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Arycrest
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1I believe that is a part of what the Panda breed founder had in mind while developing this breed. She doesn't want to lose the foundation of the breed anymore than any good breeder. She wants the best breed possible and she is doing an outstanding job; especially when she is choosing sires of her litters. If color is also important; so be it. I personally love color.
> 
> 
> 
> HP,
> Please believe me, I'm not trying to pick on you ... but the Panda Shepherd is not a separate breed, it's a GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG of a different color ("Panda pattern", piebald, tri-color not sure how the color/pattern is defined).
> 
> The breed founder is Max von Stephanitz, not Cindy McCann! If the Panda Shepherd ever becomes a separate breed accepted by AKC, FCI, or other major international kennel clubs, then give Cindy credit, but until then, please give credit to where credit is due - Max von Stephanitz.
Click to expand...

That is EXACTLY why I was merely asking for clarification! I KNOW the founder of the GSD and then honeypickle kept referring to the "founder of the breed" which lead to confusion.


----------



## angelaw

doggydog, was your dog born black/tan? if not then it shouldn't have been registered that way.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amarug,

That's fine about the AKC. However, I imagine when establishing the GSD; it was no picnic either. We are doing everything we can to insure the Panda Shepherd is a good dog. Yes, color may be important with the Panda Sheperd; but so what. It is part of the Panda Shepherd. . I have heard all of the stories that this can’t be regarding the Panda Shepherd. It can’t possibly be anything but a mix, Border collie most likely or at the very least designers breed. It’s a junk breed and she’s in it for the money. LOL You know how it goes. Nope, the breed founder was just as surprised when it happened as anyone would be. She did not invent this. It happened and she took the necessary steps to see what did happen. We have done everything possible to ensure that the Panda Shepherd is and will be a reputable breed.


----------



## angelaw

She might NOT have invented it, but she's continued it. Instead of NOT breeding the dog, she did. At that point, imo is where designer dogs come in. Instead of saying boy what a fluke, never going to breed this dog, still find out what it is for science purposes, she continued to breed the flaw and then sell them, now no longer for science reasons.


----------



## Amaruq

So are you "in the loop" on the foundation of the "breed" or are you just a fancier? I keep getting confused because at times it is "she" or "the founder of the breed" and other times it is "we". Are you/they working to have it become a separate breed registered by the AKC?

By the way it is a Q not a G- AMARUQ.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WShe might NOT have invented it, but she's continued it. Instead of NOT breeding the dog, she did. At that point, imo is where designer dogs come in. Instead of saying boy what a fluke, never going to breed this dog, still find out what it is for science purposes, she continued to breed the flaw and then sell them, now no longer for science reasons.


That is the way I always thought of it too but again that is just my opinion.


----------



## Doggydog

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1
> 
> 
> 
> That still does not answer my question. Either they are a GSD with a "rare" color/pattern/mutation or they are a separate breed. *I* do not know which they are and apparently no one else does either.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Amaruq. Just we already had covered that several pages ago. It is a GSD. AKC registered and dna certified. However, the breeder of my dog is looking to establish them as a separate breed status. I can't speak for her, but I presumed the reason is so the dogs can show and not suffer the discrimination of the breed purists who don't like to see the white coloring affecting their breed standard. {Upon seeing some people's reaction to them in this thread, I can understand her quest better}
I don't care if they're GSD or panda shepherds myself. I am not part of a movement to establish a breed.


----------



## angelaw

If you weren't breeding to keep the mutation, then why breed to black dogs? Black is recessive to every other color and a guarantee that you'd only get the panda markings.


----------



## Chicagocanine

I am very surprised to hear that the UKC is not a reputable kennel club. I was always told that they were one of the recognized "real" kennel clubs along with AKC and Canadian Kennel Club.












> Originally Posted By: Angela_Wdoggydog, was your dog born black/tan? if not then it shouldn't have been registered that way.


If a German Shepherd has a large white patch on the chest, what would you register them as? There is no place in the registration for "black, tan and white" so when registering they are usually registered as black and tan.





> Originally Posted By: Angela_WSo then it IS a gsd and not a panda shepherd per that post correct? just a normal gsd with a mutated gene. so there's no founder as it's not a sep. breed
> 
> you have colors, patterns, then dilution genes, coat genes, so where does this dominate color mutation gene come in? If it's dominate then why aren't all gsd's this color? Is it dominate over sable which is THE dominant color? where does it fit in?


They are technically German Shepherds with a new gene mutation. The breeder who had the first "panda" colored dog is working to establish the "panda" Shepherds and a separate breed so you could call her the "breed founder" of the Panda Shepherd even though currently these dogs are (AKC) registered as German Shepherds.

The gene is a new mutation, so no not all GSDs would be this color unless they are progeny of the dog who originally exhibited the mutation. It is inherited as autosomal dominant. As for the sable I don't know the actual genetics but I do know there are sable "pandas" so I believe the base color can be black, sable, or black/tan and then the white patterning is a separate gene which adds the white coloration to the dog's base color.


----------



## honeypickle1

Anglea, Amarug,

Look; lets just agree to disagree. I love the Panda Shepherd; you may not and so be it. Cherry picking your words and nitpicking aren't going to get us anywhere. I do understand where you are coming from regarding foundations. I just don't know how to explain to you we are breeding a healthy and sound dog. That is what is important. Not color, designer breeds; etc.


----------



## Doggydog

Phenom is not breeding panda with panda. Since the mutation is dominant it's not necessary. Cindy explained to me that she was breeding with mostly blk, some blk/tans. She is not breeding simply for color, but is paying attention to the whole picture. 
I do feel uncomfortable defending her kennels. That's something she should be happy to do though, if anyone wants to know more specific details, perhaps you could ask her yourselves.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: doggydog
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1
> 
> 
> 
> That still does not answer my question. Either they are a GSD with a "rare" color/pattern/mutation or they are a separate breed. *I* do not know which they are and apparently no one else does either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, Amaruq. Just we already had covered that several pages ago. It is a GSD. AKC registered and dna certified. However, the breeder of my dog is looking to establish them as a separate breed status. I can't speak for her, but I presumed the reason is so the dogs can show and not suffer the discrimination of the breed purists who don't like to see the white coloring affecting their breed standard. {Upon seeing some people's reaction to them in this thread, I can understand her quest better}
> I don't care if they're GSD or panda shepherds myself. I am not part of a movement to establish a breed.
Click to expand...

I did read that a couple pages ago but honeypickle referred to them as a separate breed and as a German Shepherd in their posts which made it confusing. I don't go calling my dogs a Sable German Shepherd so to me a panda would be a GSD with panda markings.....


----------



## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: doggydog...
> It is a GSD. AKC registered and dna certified. However, the breeder of my dog is looking to establish them as a separate breed status. I can't speak for her, but I presumed the reason is so the dogs can show and not suffer the discrimination of the breed purists who don't like to see the white coloring affecting their breed standard.
> 
> ...


Doggydog, I'm still confused. As has been pointed out, the AKC GSD breed standard owned by the GSDCA doesn't DQ the "Panda" type coloration/pattern. So if this is the case, why is a separate breed being sought? 

There are thousands of GSDs, including all but two Hooligans, who don't meet the AKC breed standard enough to win in the conformation ring. Using this logic would mean I should establish a Mac breed, Bruiser breed, Ringer breed, Honey breed, etc. because they're not meeting the breed standard either.


----------



## Doggydog

> Originally Posted By: Angela_Wdoggydog, was your dog born black/tan? if not then it shouldn't have been registered that way.


She is blk/tan. And white. There is no box for tri-color so the breeder explained that she's to be registered this way. As you mentioned earlier there is no panda description with akc


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineI am very surprised to hear that the UKC is not a reputable kennel club. I was always told that they were one of the recognized "real" kennel clubs along with AKC and Canadian Kennel Club.


No one said that UKC is not a reputable kennel club but it is NOT recognized internationally. Each country and only have one recognized kennel club. In the US it in the American Kennel Club in Canada it is the Canadian Kennel Club. UKC is recognized for their own venues within the US/Canada but not on a world level by the FCI.


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## honeypickle1

Chicagocanine,

It is a dominant mutated color gene. It is not spotted, liver, blue or anything else. Dr. Neff UCLA at Davis has proven this with his genetic study of the Panda Shepherd.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Anglea, Amarug,
> 
> Look; lets just agree to disagree. I love the Panda Shepherd; you may not and so be it. Cherry picking your words and nitpicking aren't going to get us anywhere. I do understand where you are coming from regarding foundations. I just don't know how to explain to you we are breeding a healthy and sound dog. That is what is important. Not color, designer breeds; etc.


Again it is AMARUQ a Q not a G. 

How are the dogs tested for soundness? Are any actively herding, doing SCH etc? Or are they tested with CGC, OB and Agility titles which do not fully challenge the GSD in my opinion. But again if the panda is a different breed than they do not have to know how to herd or protect they just are a different color and "sound". I am assuming again that you are a breeder too because of the "we are breeding..." comments. If not then do not bother to answer my questions. 

I do not see where either of us were cherry picking or nit picking. I was just trying to understand some, apparently, wide spread misconceptions about your breed or color of GSD depending on the post.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Chicagocanine,
> 
> It is a dominant mutated color gene. It is not spotted, liver, blue or anything else. Dr. Neff UCLA at Davis has proven this with his genetic study of the Panda Shepherd.


Does he not own one? I would think that might pose a conflict of interest. Has any one else genetically tested the dogs? 

Again if it is a dominant gene I would think it would be far more widespread across the breed.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amarug,

Set me straight about this. I thought the UKC was once a part of the AKC.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amarug,

To my knowledge, I don't know if he owns one. I have never heard that one. 

Since I don't have the expertise of Dr. Neff; I have no idea why it is not more widespread.


----------



## Doggydog

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W If it's dominate then why aren't all gsd's this color? Is it dominate over sable which is THE dominant color? where does it fit in?


This is better answered by the researcher. I know the information is available online. Look at Phenom's website and it may be explained there. 
There are sable pandas incidently. There's a pic of one buried a few pages back here.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Amarug,
> 
> Set me straight about this. I thought the UKC was once a part of the AKC.


No it is an independent registry. 

AmaruQ- it is a Q like Quick


----------



## honeypickle1

Amarug,

First of all I understand Q stands for question; but I have no clue what G stands for.

Yes, I am a breeder. Honeypickle will be trained for therapy work and yes CGC will be tested. Am not sure about agility although my white shepherd will be trained for that. Don't have a clue what OB is. Don't know of anyone doing herding yet or SCH. I health test all of my dogs; even the rescues. 

I will say this. I believe in the Panda Shepherd and I believe it has a great future.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amarug,

I thought AKC and UKC were joined and they split.


----------



## honeypickle1

Sorry for getting your name wrong.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Amarug,
> 
> First of all I understand Q stands for question; but I have no clue what G stands for.
> 
> Yes, I am a breeder. Honeypickle will be trained for therapy work and yes CGC will be tested. Am not sure about agility although my white shepherd will be trained for that. Don't have a clue what OB is. Don't know of anyone doing herding yet or SCH. I health test all of my dogs; even the rescues.
> 
> I will say this. I believe in the Panda Shepherd and I believe it has a great future.


My screen name is AmaruQ with a Q as in Quick not a g as in German. 

OB= Obedience titles (common abbreviation in the dog world or so I thought)

You were claiming earlier that the panda dogs can do the same work that their ancestors German Shepherd Dogs do, but they do not do SCH or Herding the two qualifying titles for breeding in the land of their origin, Germany.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amaruq,

No, I never claimed they were doing the same work and I believe I said I do not know of any Panda Shepherd who is currently doing herding work or SCH. The foundation in their lines is there, though.


----------



## Amaruq

And as stated previously, just because their parents "did it" doesn't mean that the future generations can do it without each being individually trained and titled in those endeavors.

If panda dogs get their own breed would that mean that pandas could only be breed to other pandas and they would then be split off of the German Shepherd Dog? 

Best of luck with them becoming their own breed.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:Yes, I am a breeder. Honeypickle will be trained for therapy work and yes CGC will be tested. Am not sure about agility although my white shepherd will be trained for that. Don't have a clue what OB is. Don't know of anyone doing herding yet or SCH. I health test all of my dogs; even the rescues.


What health testing do you do on your breeding stock?


----------



## honeypickle1

Amaruq,

I said the foundation was there. Without the foundation, there would be no reason to train or title them. 

I would think that would be the general goal and idea.


----------



## Doggydog

Angela,
I didn't say the breeder was not breeding for color. I said she's not breeding exclusively for color.


----------



## honeypickle1

I will be doing blood work, hip testing and elbow, EIP testing, bruscilosis(sp), eye, heart and just about any test that I need to do. I have two vets, one for reproductive and the other for general.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1I will be doing blood work, hip testing and elbow, EIP testing, bruscilosis(sp), eye, heart and just about any test that I need to do. I have two vets, one for reproductive and the other for general.


What about DM. I applaud the health screening. 

But I personally would like to see the same dedication to the temperament, working ability and structure.


----------



## AbbyK9

If you are putting all of this health testing into your dogs, why are you putting titles only on one end (conformation) and not on the other (any kind of work)? 

It seems counterintuitive to me to breed dogs that don't have some kind of basic working titles on them, or at least proof that they have some kind of working ability. Even herding instinct certificates would be nice. 

I bet there are probably many people out there who'd like a white or tricolor GSD that they can take into the sport ring, to do herding or agility or whatever. But if they're looking for a puppy with that purpose in mind, they probably would not purchase a dog from a breeder who doesn't title their breeding stock in some working venue.

If a dog has some basic herding instinct, and most GSDs do, getting them herding instinct tested would be relatively easy, and it's proof of a lot more ability than getting a CGC or TDI on a dog.


----------



## Amaruq

Chris, can you just post in my place? You are saying what I intend to much better.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amaruq,

Thank you. Even my rescues get blood workups. 

I don't know what DM is?


----------



## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> Does he not own one? I would think that might pose a conflict of interest. Has any one else genetically tested the dogs?
> 
> Again if it is a dominant gene I would think it would be far more widespread across the breed.


As I said in my other reply, this is a new gene mutation. As such it would not be widespread across the breed. I am not well-versed in the history but from what I have read it seems that one dog in particular owned by Cindy McCann was the first dog to exhibit the panda phenotype. If the mutation originated with her or with her sire/dam there is no reason it would be widespread.

As far as whether or not the geneticist owns one of these panda colored dogs, I have no idea. I read that the first dog to show this coloring was tested as a pup so it seems unlikely that he owned one until that dog was an adult and was bred, which would have been way after genetic testing was done. According to their genetic information the pup was tested at the Ohio State University Veterinary Hospital and testing was done by the AKC diagnostic laboratory to confirm her parentage. If you are implying that the testing was somehow counterfeit or faked that would be something to bring up with those organizations or their governing bodies.


----------



## WiscTiger

There are many GSD's that are bred that aren't titled. Some have done a disservice to the bred others have enhanced the breed. Enhanced you say, sure Val. Yep I know of a breeder in WI that got away from titling his dogs, but bred his dogs. The person is experienced enough to know a good dog and knows what he is looking for as he bred, trains, sells and works with law enforcement. So there are some people who know good dogs without titles on them.


----------



## honeypickle1

Historian,

I do understand what you are saying; but a healthy and sound dog is the most important to me. Actually, we have been exploring other areas like wagon pulling(hope I said that right). 

I show because that is the field I know best. I like showing and will continue to do so. 

Give me a break, LOL I am new at this breeding gig and you have opened up other possiblities to explore.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerThere are many GSD's that are bred that aren't titled. Some have done a disservice to the bred others have enhanced the breed. Enhanced you say, sure Val. Yep I know of a breeder in WI that got away from titling his dogs, but bred his dogs. The person is experienced enough to know a good dog and knows what he is looking for as he bred, trains, sells and works with law enforcement. So there are some people who know good dogs without titles on them.


Yes there are some that understand GOOD dogs but compared to the mass majority they are very few and far between.


----------



## honeypickle1

Historian,

I must say Honey Pickle is showing a herding instinct.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote: The person is experienced enough to know a good dog and knows what he is looking for as he bred, trains, sells and works with law enforcement. So there are some people who know good dogs without titles on them.


But that's kind of a different real altogether, dogs for law enforcement and the military.

Much of that (I don't know how much) comes from breeding stock that doesn't have competition titles, since they're breed for that very specific purpose. I know that, for example, one of the Malinois breeders that sells dogs to the military doesn't do competition venues with his dogs, although some dogs he's sold are certainly doing Schutzhund, Ringsport, etc.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1
> Give me a break, LOL I am new at this breeding gig and you have opened up other possiblities to explore.


Which is why responsible breeders research their breed of choice for a LONG time before taking the plunge into breeding. They understand all of the health issues as well as temperament and working abilities of their breed. But I guess that can be hard when the breed of choice is still being formed.


----------



## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqAnd as stated previously, just because their parents "did it" doesn't mean that the future generations can do it without each being individually trained and titled in those endeavors.


Just want to clarify: You are saying any GSD breeder who does not put Schutzhund and/or herding titles on all their breeding dogs is doing the breed a disservice and should not be breeding their dogs?


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:
> I must say Honey Pickle is showing a herding instinct.


Google "herding instinct test" in your state and see if you can get her tested. That is proof that she's showing herding instinct. And maybe it's a venue you'd like to pursue - it's A LOT of fun, especially for the dog.


----------



## Doggydog

[/quote]Doggydog, I'm still confused. As has been pointed out, the AKC GSD breed standard owned by the GSDCA doesn't DQ the "Panda" type coloration/pattern. So if this is the case, why is a separate breed being sought? 

There are thousands of GSDs, including all but two Hooligans, who don't meet the AKC breed standard enough to win in the conformation ring. Using this logic would mean I should establish a Mac breed, Bruiser breed, Ringer breed, Honey breed, etc. because they're not meeting the breed standard either.[/quote] 
I'll take a bruiser shepherd. He's so cute. Well they all are. I already explained that I do not know the world of showing, it's a foreign universe. I said I PRESUMED that is one reason she seeks separate status. Isn't it true that the white pigment is DQ tho?


----------



## honeypickle1

Amaruq, 

Regarding your response to Wisc. Tiger, I am confident that the breed founder of the Pandas knows a good dog.


----------



## honeypickle1

Thanks Historian,

I appreciate.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amaruq,

That is a cheap shot and I don't appreciate it at all.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:Isn't it true that the white pigment is DQ tho?


No, only solid white dogs are disqualified. Many dogs have white spots on their chest, paws, etc.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:Just want to clarify: You are saying any GSD breeder who does not put Schutzhund and/or herding titles on all their breeding dogs is doing the breed a disservice and should not be breeding their dogs?


I know this wasn't directed at me, but I want to answer it anyway. 

I think there are certainly exception. Like I said above, there are some breeders that produce dogs primarily for serious working use (police/military) and they don't usually compete in the sport ring. 

But it would be nice to see good breeders title their dogs in some sort of sporting venue to prove their dogs don't just look like GSDs, but that they have inherited the temperament and working ability that the breed was founded on. Like Stephanitz said, "German Shepherd Dog breeding is working dog breeding." If you don't title the dogs, how do you know if they have the ability to work, and prove it?

In Germany, GSDs have to be titled in order to be considered for breeding. I don't think it's a bad concept. A GSD should be a GSD all around, not just look like one.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: AmaruqAnd as stated previously, just because their parents "did it" doesn't mean that the future generations can do it without each being individually trained and titled in those endeavors.
> 
> 
> 
> Just want to clarify: You are saying any GSD breeder who does not put Schutzhund and/or herding titles on all their breeding dogs is doing the breed a disservice and should not be breeding their dogs?
Click to expand...

In Germany (which is the home land of the breed we all love so much) the dogs could not be registered as a German Shepherd Dog without one of those two titles. I am not saying titles are the end all but at least it shows the breeder is putting time and effort into the actual working aspects of their dogs. Agility, Rally and OB titles are nice to see but they do not test the character of the dog as SCH and HGH style herding does. Without breeders out there that DO test/trial their dogs in these venues and keep these qualities, the breed that we know and love would fade into "just another dog". So I guess the simple answer to your question would be YES but it is really not a yes or no type question.


----------



## honeypickle1

Doggydog,

I think there has to be a certain percentage of white too before the dogs can be disqualified.


----------



## AbbyK9

Here's what the standards say regarding color -



> Quote:AKC -
> Color The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.





> Quote:FCI -
> fading pigment; blues, albinos (with complete lack of pigmentation, e.g. pink nose, etc.) and whites (near to pure white with black nose);


----------



## honeypickle1

Historian,

I was referring to the Rare breed shows that I show in.


----------



## AbbyK9

I understood Doggiedad's question to be regarding AKC shows. 

I don't know what the rules are in rare breed shows regarding color, although it would be odd if they disqualified a color that the AKC does not. What rare breed venue do you show in? Maybe you could point us to their standards regarding color?


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Amaruq,
> 
> That is a cheap shot and I don't appreciate it at all.


It was not intended as a cheap shot. For example take the Klee Kai (a recent new Artic breed similar to the Siberian Husky). They do not have the same type of history or sheer number of dogs that the Siberian Husky which has been around for a LONG times has. So it would be harder to research a breed that has been around only 5, 10 or 15 years than it would to research a breed such as the Husky which has been around MUCH longer and has a lot more information to research. There is simply not the same volume of information available. If you interpreted my comment as a cheap shot I do apologize that is not what I intended.


----------



## mjbgsd

> Quote: A GSD should be a GSD all around, not just look like one.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: A GSD should be a GSD all around, not just look like one.
Click to expand...

























Exactly the point I have been trying to make.


----------



## honeypickle1

Sorry, I misunderstood. I may be confusing myself even. LOL I just remember somewhere along the line a judge told me that if it is not a pure white dog; it can only have 30 percent white to be able to show. Of course, it may have been a breed standard I am referring too.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amaruq,

I saw it as a cheap shot and I accept your apology. I don't mind answering questions and if I am incorrect; I will be the first to admit it and I don't mind being corrected if the case truly warrants it.. I don't mind even answering loaded questions; but I don't hit below the belt. I respect people and I expect the same.


----------



## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: HistorianA GSD should be a GSD all around, not just look like one.



So does that mean my dog is not a GSD because she was not able complete Schutzhund training and did not get a title?

Personally I have no interest in Schutzhund training myself (her previous owner was.) 
I am interested in tracking (which she has done some in her previous home) and herding (at least in trying an instinct test) and also in other dog "jobs" such as agility, carting, animal-assisted therapy, etc.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:So does that mean my dog is not a GSD because she was not able complete Schutzhund training and did not get a title?


Could you please go back and read the posts I've made that you are quoting above? I think you're misunderstanding me.

IF you are planning to BREED Bianca, then you should work and title her, so there is proof that she has working ability. After all, this breed was founded to be a working breed, and a dog without this ability is a German Shepherd only in appearance.

If, on the other hand, you enjoy Bianca as a companion, have her spayed, and don't plan on breeding her, then it's not necessary to title her unless you want to get into dog sports with her. Since she's done Schutzhund in her previous home, she has the ABILITY to do the work. If she also does well in her herding instinct test when you take it, then she also has the ABILITY to do that kind of work.


----------



## girlll_face

What a gorgeous puppy!!!!!


----------



## Doggydog

Historian,
I would love to involve my dog in some herding for fun. I live in NYC and haven't seen any sheep or cattle around here. I do see Jiva shows indications that she has the instinct. I bet it would be a fun thing for a shepherd to have an opportunity to herd.
Is sar considering working? Because some of Phenom's panda's are doing this. 
Seems this controversy will not be settled until some of the Phenom panda GSD's get sch titled. Maybe a few should be donated to police service and see what happens? Since I've already explained, I don't care to do that kind of thing, it won't be resolved with me. 
And, yes of course I am reading the posts. But I don't agree with the notion that my GSD is not capable of working simply because she is a panda. 
There is a lot of contradiction and irony in this thread. 
I am told she's not bred for work. But when I explain that her sire's entire line is titled sch I am told that doesn't mean Jiva can do it. So to follow that logic, why does it matter if a breeder titles in sch if it's no indication that the offspring can perform anyway? I do like the German concept too. Too bad it's not practiced here. I do think it is an indication that the drive is in the genes, no matter what the color. 
There's plenty of GSD's represented on this board who are not bred to standard, don't come from working lines, or have titled lineage. Yet they are not criticized because they have the correct color. 
I'm making no apology for my choice. I am crazy about my GSD. I understand some folks don't like them. Don't get one. But to claim that mine is not a real GSD or not a good GSD is a bit nutty. 

Funny how some people are so concerned about their dogs temperament and training given their own bad temperaments and lack of manners. 
That comment isn't intended for any particular poster by the way. 

Do the white GSD fans get this much flak also? Just wondering.....


----------



## Doggydog

Historian said:


> Quote:
> 
> If, on the other hand, you enjoy Bianca as a companion, have her spayed, and don't plan on breeding her, then it's not necessary to title her
> 
> 
> 
> But according to Angela enjoying your dog as a companion is ruining the breed and watering it down.
Click to expand...


----------



## Chicagocanine

Historian said:


> Quote:
> If, on the other hand, you enjoy Bianca as a companion, have her spayed, and don't plan on breeding her, then it's not necessary to title her unless you want to get into dog sports with her. Since she's done Schutzhund in her previous home, she has the ABILITY to do the work. If she also does well in her herding instinct test when you take it, then she also has the ABILITY to do that kind of work.
> 
> 
> 
> She did not completely the Schutzhund training in her previous home though. I believe their words were that she didn't have the full drive for it.
Click to expand...


----------



## angelaw

Please do NOT put words in my mouth, I said:




> Originally Posted By: Angela_WBut by this:
> 
> "I want a clever pet that we can have fun with. Most likely she'll be doing lots of fetching hiking and swimming. Despite the critics opinions, I think my dog is great and she makes us happy. We're a family who enjoy sharing our lives with dogs. Jiva seems in every other way like any GSD I've ever known."
> 
> just pets and not requiring more than just a nice pet DOES compromise the breed.





> Originally Posted By: Angela_WBut you SHOULD care if your dog can work. If more people like you DON'T care about the dogs abilities, then you've essentially got watered down dogs, and they are no longer german shepherds. Look at the decline of the american lines over the last 30 years. Bred because it was pretty, not because it could work. Showlines are heading in the same direction if showline breeders only concentrate on showing.
> 
> Doberman's are another breed that has been basically destroyed by people wanting pretty and only wanting pets. Not too many you see doing schutzhund anymore. I know of 2 in my area within about 20 clubs.
> 
> If you want a dog that's watered down, then please get a golden or a lab. Alot of those are already ruined.


Having a pet from a reputable breeder that does something with their dogs (herding, schutzhund, etc) and getting a pet out of the deal is very different than getting a pet from someone else who bred their pet. That IS waterering down and ruining the breed. To continue to breed "pets" is a further continuation.


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## angelaw

> Originally Posted By: doggydogI do like the German concept too. Too bad it's not practiced here.


If it was, you'd never see a Panda as it would most likely be culled at birth and not even an option to spend money on


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## angelaw

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerThere are many GSD's that are bred that aren't titled. Some have done a disservice to the bred others have enhanced the breed. Enhanced you say, sure Val. Yep I know of a breeder in WI that got away from titling his dogs, but bred his dogs. The person is experienced enough to know a good dog and knows what he is looking for as he bred, trains, sells and works with law enforcement. So there are some people who know good dogs without titles on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there are some that understand GOOD dogs but compared to the mass majority they are very few and far between.
Click to expand...


and few and far between that can tell the difference.


----------



## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: doggydogI do like the German concept too. Too bad it's not practiced here.
> 
> 
> 
> If it was, you'd never see a Panda as it would most likely be culled at birth and not even an option to spend money on
Click to expand...

If the breed standard does not disqualify it as several people said here, why would it be culled?

I never understood the point of putting perfectly healthy puppies to sleep just because they are the "wrong" color. If you don't like the color of conformation, what is wrong with spay/neuter and pet homes?
ETA: If the culling is done because the breeder is ashamed of the result of their breeding or wants to hide it, wouldn't this be dishonest and detrimental to the breed's future because they are hiding the fact that the lines they are breeding from may contain the genes for those things?


----------



## angelaw

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Amaruq,
> 
> Thank you. Even my rescues get blood workups.
> 
> I don't know what DM is?


So you're looking to breed and you don't even know what DM is? Please do further research before going down that road then. As a breeder (or wanna be future breeder) you should know the health issues that can arise in the breed.


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## honeypickle1

Angela W,

Maybe I missed something; but I don't know where any of with Panda Shepherds said we were only breeding as pets?


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## angelaw

Chicagocanine, it's just the way it works. I'm not saying right or wrong. For many years the whites were culled as it was thought the white dogs would stand out in the flock and be able to be too visible to protect the flock


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## honeypickle1

Gee Angela W,

Some people use different codes for different words. They don't all go by your exact terms. I asked a legit question. I don't know what DM means.


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## angelaw

Honey, read 2 posts up from my quotes on pets on page 11. I was responding to someone putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> Having a pet from a reputable breeder that does something with their dogs (herding, schutzhund, etc) and getting a pet out of the deal is very different than getting a pet from someone else who bred their pet. That IS waterering down and ruining the breed. To continue to breed "pets" is a further continuation.



If a GSD is titled in conformation, agility, tracking and obedience and is health tested, OFA, CERF, etc and the breeding is done with consideration to the strengths and weaknesses of the sire/dam and the lines, you consider that as someone 'breeding their pet'?


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## angelaw

It's not MY exact terms. That is the common reference to it. It is called DM because it is a very long 2 words to spell out. Degenerative Myelopathy aka DM for short. It is the well known abbreviation for it and if you're thinking of breeding you should definitely know this and what tests are available.


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## honeypickle1

Angela W

Got ya.


----------



## angelaw

Not neccessarily. Send a guy in a bite suit, see what the dogs does. If it runs and hides, yes that's someone breeding their pet. 
Now with all the other stuff you put, I would have to look at closer.


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:But according to Angela enjoying your dog as a companion is ruining the breed and watering it down.


That is NOT what Angela said at all.

Angela said that people should not be BREEDING specifically to create more pet dogs. EVERY litter of show-line dogs from parents with show titles will produce dogs that are not suitable for showing, but will make great pets. And EVERY litter of working-line dogs from parents with working titles will produce dogs that have less drive and ability than their siblings, and won't do well in Schutzhund or Ringsport, but will be great pets.

Enjoying your PET is a wonderful thing. BREEDING a pet for the sake of making more pets is not. And that is what ruins breeds.



> Quote:She did not completely the Schutzhund training in her previous home though. I believe their words were that she didn't have the full drive for it.


Please see what I just posted above. In every litter, dogs will be born that "have it" and dogs will be born that don't. There is nothing wrong enjoying her as a pet!



> Quote:I would love to involve my dog in some herding for fun. I live in NYC and haven't seen any sheep or cattle around here. I do see Jiva shows indications that she has the instinct. I bet it would be a fun thing for a shepherd to have an opportunity to herd.


You must not be looking very hard for a place to take your dog herding. 

A quick Google search using "herding New York" brought up the following website - http://www.northeastherdinginfo.com - which lists herding events, clinics, and trials in the northeast area, including New York. There's a training facility listed that's just over an hour from you in Branchville, NJ. 

Many of the people here who herd, do Schutzhund, or other dog activities drive quite a bit to make it to their classes to be active with their dogs. When I lived in northern VA, just outside Washington, DC, we drove for just under 2 hours to herd in Berryville, VA. Down here we've been lucky, there was a place 20 minutes away!



> Quote:But I don't agree with the notion that my GSD is not capable of working simply because she is a panda.


And again, NOBODY said that. People said that when folks go out to buy a dog, they should look for breeders who work and title their dogs, not purchase from people who breed pets for the sake of creating more pets. See above.



> Quote:There's plenty of GSD's represented on this board who are not bred to standard, don't come from working lines, or have titled lineage. Yet they are not criticized because they have the correct color.


You've been here since MAY. 

There have been PLENTY of discussions about dogs breed outside the standard, breeders not working or health testing, dogs being bred solely for their color or size or coat type, etc. Please don't assume that there has been no discussion or criticism of these dogs just because you haven't seen any in the past four weeks you've been here.


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## honeypickle1

Sorry, I have just never heard of it. Strange, that I haven't. I was only referring to DM and since I have never heard of the disease; I would assume it would be appropriate to ask the question. 

How about the disease Mega E? And even though Pano is not always considered an inherited disease; it happens; usually within the first 12 months of a dogs life. Affects mostly large breeds.


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## angelaw

Something a dog grows out of like Pano (growing pains), I don't consider a disease. Heck if that's the case then I had the same thing growing up, not a perm. thing. Just a little uncomfortable and annoying.


Mega E doesn't go away, DM doesn't go away. EPI doesn't, SIBO doesn't, etc.


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## WiscTiger

I know when I came to this board I was planning on breeding and I didn't know what DM was either. Well I haven't bred any dogs because I am looking for what I consider acceptable to bred. I get close but there is always something that isn't there, it might be bad hips, bad elbows, nerve issues or just don't like some of the reactions or behaviors of a dog.

There is a lot to learn and I was lucky that people on the board were more than willing to help me learn and were not rude or nasty about it. Tough on me because I wanted to breed coated dogs, but always willing to teach about health issues, talk about nerve issues or training.


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## honeypickle1

Angela W,

I am aware of that.


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## AbbyK9

HoneyPickle - you may find this information on DM useful. 
http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/DM_Web/DMofGS.htm


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## angelaw

just answering your question.


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## honeypickle1

Wisc Tiger,

Most breeders are looking for something type, or whatever. Sometimes you have to I suppose give a little on some things. Show me the perfect dog. LOL I am kidding about the perfect dog.


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## honeypickle1

Thank you Angela W. I appreciate.


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## honeypickle1

Historian,

Thank you. I have heard of spinal disease; more likely spinal injury in dogs; but I have never heard of this. I have bookmarked to read about it. I just glanced and saw neurological; but have not read it; but I will.


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## honeypickle1

Angela W,

Maybe poor choice of words regarding Pano calling it a disease. I don't think it is either; growing pains is what it is. I do know of a litter where every pup had it. Some outgrew it before the others which is probably to be expected.


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## WiscTiger

honeypickle1, there are some things I might comprimise on, but maybe I am too picky. I know what I want to produce and I know I need to start with something that is IMHO 90% or more of what for the end result. Once again in my opinion you start with junk you produce junk. Some things you can not improve by breeding, dogs with poor nerves produce pups with poor nerves.


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## honeypickle1

Angela W,

I have to ask this question. I have always thought working dogs are guardian dogs; you know guard the flock and herding dogs were different because they herded the flock.

Why is there a separate class for these dogs? And I hope I am not opening a can or worms. LOL


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## AbbyK9

Livestock guardian dogs and herding dogs are two different things. A livestock guardian dog is bred to stay with the herd and protect it from predators, such as wolves. A herding dog is bred to move a herd, providing a kind of "moving fence" to get the herd to go a specific way and keep it in a specific place.


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## honeypickle1

Historian,

I understand what Angela W said because I said the same thing. I should have been more specific. The GSD show in the herding classes; not working classes. There are those of us that feel the GSD should show in the working class. Again, hope I am not opening a can of worms.


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## Doggydog

But Angela, it is what you said. Then you used quotes to prove your point and proved mine. I NEVER said I want a dog that can't work. I did say I have no intention of working my dog. That was quite a leap for you to interpret that I don't want a dog who is capable of work. I said I want to enjoy her as a pet and companion. To that you replied "just pets and not requiring more than just a nice pet DOES compromise the breed." Hmmm, by that guideline, most members of this site are watering the breed because they enjoy their GSD's as companions and don't herd or protection train?
Then you insulted me by suggesting I get a breed that's already ruined. Why on earth would I want a ruined dog? 
You could make your point without being a snark. But that's just your style I guess. 
My dog could certainly be spotted in a field of sheep by the way. 
I love black and tans. If I didn't have Jiva, I would have one. You seem to enjoy the idea that Jiva should have been culled. If that were the case, I would be equally happy with a blk/tan. 

Hey, you don't like them. I understand that loud and clear. No reason to be so bitter over it. 

I still don't get why it's presumed my dog is not capable of work and is ruining the breed because she isn't working herself, despite a long line of titled working dogs in her lineage?


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## Doggydog

Thanks Historian for the link to herding. I am quite surprised that there is any within my reach. I will look into it.


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:I understand what Angela W said because I said the same thing. I should have been more specific. The GSD show in the herding classes; not working classes. There are those of us that feel the GSD should show in the working class. Again, hope I am not opening a can of worms.


What you are actually asking, then, is not the difference between livestock guardian dogs and herding dogs, but how the different breeds are grouped together and what classifies dogs as herding dogs or working dogs.

When it comes to conformation, it works like this ...

The working group is made up of dogs that were originally bred to assist their owners in labor-intensive tasks, such as pulling sleds, pulling carts, carrying loads, guarding, and the like. So this group includes dogs like Huskies, Bernese, Rottweilers, etc.

The herding group is made up of dogs that were originally bred to be herding dogs, ie. to move around herds or flocks effectively.

Since the German Shepherd Dog evolved from sheep herding dogs of Germany - and is named the German SHEPHERD (as in, "sheep herding") - dog, it makes sense for them to be in the herding group. They were not bred to pull weights or carry loads.

Even though Shepherds WORK and excel in many types of work, there is no category for this in the breed groups at the moment. Their definition of "working" is for dogs originally bred to pull, carry, or guard.


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## honeypickle1

Historian,

That makes sense exept I thought GSD were bred to be guardian dogs too.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: doggydogHistorian,
> I would love to involve my dog in some herding for fun. I live in NYC and haven't seen any sheep or cattle around here. I do see Jiva shows indications that she has the instinct. I bet it would be a fun thing for a shepherd to have an opportunity to herd.
> Is sar considering working? Because some of Phenom's panda's are doing this.
> Seems this controversy will not be settled until some of the Phenom panda GSD's get sch titled. Maybe a few should be donated to police service and see what happens? Since I've already explained, I don't care to do that kind of thing, it won't be resolved with me.
> And, yes of course I am reading the posts. But I don't agree with the notion that my GSD is not capable of working simply because she is a panda.
> There is a lot of contradiction and irony in this thread.
> I am told she's not bred for work. But when I explain that her sire's entire line is titled sch I am told that doesn't mean Jiva can do it. So to follow that logic, why does it matter if a breeder titles in sch if it's no indication that the offspring can perform anyway? I do like the German concept too. Too bad it's not practiced here. I do think it is an indication that the drive is in the genes, no matter what the color.
> There's plenty of GSD's represented on this board who are not bred to standard, don't come from working lines, or have titled lineage. Yet they are not criticized because they have the correct color.
> I'm making no apology for my choice. I am crazy about my GSD. I understand some folks don't like them. Don't get one. But to claim that mine is not a real GSD or not a good GSD is a bit nutty.
> 
> Funny how some people are so concerned about their dogs temperament and training given their own bad temperaments and lack of manners.
> That comment isn't intended for any particular poster by the way.
> 
> Do the white GSD fans get this much flak also? Just wondering.....


No one on this thread has EVER said that your dog cannot work BECAUSE he is a panda. Color/pattern does not have baring on working ability. However, no one knows that their dog CAN work until it is taken out on the field trained, tested and trialed. 

Much of this discussion is about breeding dogs not owning a pet from a breeding. The point we are trying to make is that a working dog (any dog whose origins is in a working endeavor like terriers, herding breeds, draft dogs, farm dogs and protections dogs; the dogs of these types that are bred SHOULD be able to work. The most widely accepted PROOF of a working dog are working titles. There will be pups from working dogs that will not be able to work for a wide variety of things like structure, drive, or whatever.

Again, many of these posts were regarding breeding stock not pets. As long as you love your pet everyone is happy. But breeding pets to make pets does damage the integritiy of ANY breed.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Angela W,
> 
> Maybe I missed something; but I don't know where any of with Panda Shepherds said we were only breeding as pets?


Which is why those of us involved in this discussion as asking "what type of work are the breeding stock doing to prove the working ability is there?" 

So far I have seen "training for a therapy dog" and "showing in rare breed". I think Agility or OB were mentioned- not real sure. As stated previously as admirable as therapy work is neither that nor the others listed show that the breeding stock is capable of doing the jobs originally intended for the breed.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:That makes sense exept I thought GSD were bred to be guardian dogs too.


German Shepherds were originally bred to be an all-around working dog that would be able to move herds, but also work as a police dog or be a good family companion. 

They were not bred to be "guardian dogs". Guardian dogs are dogs that are raised with the stock they protect and stay with them in the pasture but do not herd them. 

Guarding (as in, protecting a home) and livestock guardian are two different job descriptions. German Shepherds most definitely can guard or protect a home, but they were never bred as livestock guardian dogs.


----------



## Doggydog

"they should look for breeders who work and title their dogs, not purchase from people who breed pets for the sake of creating more pets."

I asked my breeder for evidence that her dogs can work. I was put in touch with her customers who do all types of sport, sar, therapy and the like. I asked to see the pedigree for the parents and saw the sire and his entire line was title SCHII or III. I had email exchanges with many of her customers, the ones that I put most bearing on were those that had standard GSD's as well for their assessment and comparison. My dog was temperament tested, has a health guarantee and guaranteed hips and elbows. 
I did not just go find a cute dog and say ok that's good enough. I was also looking at a black and a blk/tan at the time. Neither of those pups could compare to the Phenom puppy in these ways. Could I have found a "better" blk/tan? Probably. But not in the price range I can afford. I am a single Mom living in an expensive city. Quite honestly, it's not in my budget to pay a couple grand for a dog. I also discovered this site and looked around, in fact that's how I found my dog in the first place. The kennel was discussed in the breeder's section and several posters had very positive things to say about Cindy. This was all included in my decision to purchase her puppy.
In any case, I do believe I have a quality dog. Can she show? Probably not. Can she work? Maybe, I don't know. But in even the best of litters, there are puppies that aren't going to make the grade for what they're intended for. 
I am not a breeder. I am a GSD enthusiast. If there are questions I can't answer about the breeder I again suggest you contact her. I just can't see the basis for holding disdain for her when you don't really know what she's doing. There's a lot of assumption, suspicion, speculation, and judgments being made for which I still don't see solid basis. 
Wow there's so many bad terrible breeders. Shameful. At least Cindy is knowledgeable experienced and is trying to make a great line of dogs. That isn't true of a lot of breeders.
I made efforts to make an informed and good choice. I know they do not conform to standard. That was the least of my concerns as long as it was only regarding her appearance. The blk/tan I was looking into had a white chest and some white on her paws, that wasn't why I didn't choose her. The blk puppy was the same price as Jiva, but hadn't been to a vet and the parents didn't have OFA clearance on the hips, although she was from german working lines.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amaraq

You should have been more clear on what you meant?


----------



## Amaruq

> Quote:Which is why those of us involved in this discussion as asking "what type of work are the breeding stock doing to prove the working ability is there?"
> 
> So far I have seen "training for a therapy dog" and "showing in rare breed". I think Agility or OB were mentioned- not real sure. As stated previously as admirable as therapy work is neither that nor the others listed show that the breeding stock is capable of doing the jobs originally intended for the breed.


I did not think it could get any clearer. I guess there is no point in continuing if my posts are not clear.







Perhaps the panda shepherd people looking to create a separate breed the dogs would not be in the same group as the German Shepherd Dog. Maybe that would make a difference.


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:I asked my breeder for evidence that her dogs can work. I was put in touch with her customers who do all types of sport, sar, therapy and the like.


I think that this is what makes a lot of people uncomfortable with many breeders. When you ask a breeder to show you evidence their dogs can work, the breeder should be showing you what their breeding stock has earned, not refer you to puppy buyers to talk to.


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## honeypickle1

doggiedog,

I so agree. Cindy has extensive knowledge and a lot of experience with the GSD and she has done an incredible job with the Panda Shepherd. My white shepherd and my Panda both have wonderful temperments and are healthy.


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## honeypickle1

Historian,

That's exactly what Cindy informed me of.


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## honeypickle1

Aamrug,

Don't cop out on me.









Seriously, I have learned a great deal today.


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## Amaruq

I cannot state my question any clearer in the English Language. Maybe Historian (Chris) can but to me my question was very clear and concise.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Aamrug,
> 
> Don't cop out on me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, I have learned a great deal today.


Which doesn't seem to include spelling Amaruq's user name.


----------



## girlll_face

You guys shouldn't fight. I love all dogs, all animals for that matter. Breeding is important, for health issues, breed standards, all of that. But mutts can be just as good as the purebreds. Like with people, I really don't think color should be an issue. 
I don't think people should breed pets to make more pets. Millions of animals are killed each year in shelters. Unless you're breeding to strengthen the breed, then don't do it. There aren't enough homes as it is, for the animals that are already born. How many innocents have to die before people realize that?


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:I cannot state my question any clearer in the English Language. Maybe Historian (Chris) can but to me my question was very clear and concise.


I can try ... ?

I believe what Amaruq is asking is, what titles have the breeding dogs listed on Phenom Shepherds' website earned? More specifically, what titles do the dam and sire of your dog, Honeypickle, have? Not back in the lines, but the actual dam and sire.

I hope I got that right.

ETA (Edited to Add): I think one of the reasons people are so after this is because there seems to be a lack of this information on the Phenom Shepherds website. There's a great deal of information on Panda Shepherds, but very little on their breeding stock itself.


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## Amaruq

Yes, you did Chris.


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## honeypickle1

Sorry, I have poor eyesight and when I was previously corrected: I made every effort to do it. But, of course, sometimes we slip; don't we?


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## Amaruq

If *I* was so inclined to create a new breed of dog I would include in the standard that they dog must be titled in a specific working venue so that dogs that could not do a minimum amount of work could not be bred. Well technically it could still produce puppies but those puppies would not be able to be registered as the Amaruq Shepherd Dog (What can I say I love herding breeds). If my dog had Shepherd in the name it would most definitely have to earn some sort of herding title(s). If my dog was the Amaruq Spotted Hound it would be able to hunt something. If my breed were Amaruq Terror Pooch that darn dog would have to terrorize something!









Personally I love my GSD and think they are just fine. For the record ALL of my Shepherds, even the puppy rental, have been herding.


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## honeypickle1

Amarug

Maybe I should have made myself more clear. Some of us are not familar with SCH and herding except in a passing nod.


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## honeypickle1

Sorry about the misspelling of your name again. Oops


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## honeypickle1

Amaruq

LOL


----------



## angelaw

> Originally Posted By: doggydogBut Angela, it is what you said. Then you used quotes to prove your point and proved mine. I NEVER said I want a dog that can't work. I did say I have no intention of working my dog. That was quite a leap for you to interpret that I don't want a dog who is capable of work. I said I want to enjoy her as a pet and companion. To that you replied "just pets and not requiring more than just a nice pet DOES compromise the breed." Hmmm, by that guideline, most members of this site are watering the breed because they enjoy their GSD's as companions and don't herd or protection train?
> Then you insulted me by suggesting I get a breed that's already ruined. Why on earth would I want a ruined dog?
> You could make your point without being a snark. But that's just your style I guess.
> My dog could certainly be spotted in a field of sheep by the way.
> I love black and tans. If I didn't have Jiva, I would have one. You seem to enjoy the idea that Jiva should have been culled. If that were the case, I would be equally happy with a blk/tan.
> Cruella DeVille could take some lessons from you.
> Hey, you don't like them. I understand that loud and clear. No reason to be so bitter over it.
> 
> I still don't get why it's presumed my dog is not capable of work and is ruining the breed because she isn't working herself, despite a long line of titled working dogs in her lineage?


I do appreciate the personal attack, thank you so much. Again, you go assuming and we all know what that means. You stated you just wanted a pet. You also stated about conforming to the german standard and I pointed out how that really would have happened with the panda dog you have. If it had shown up in a german litter, most likely it wouldn't have been culled. Has nothing to do what I like to don't like, just the way it was. I'm in no way bitter, Im just to the point. If people don't want truth and honesty and to the point, sometimes brutal info, don't ask.


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## honeypickle1

I couldn't begin to tell you if it involves herding or SCH.


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## honeypickle1

Angela,

What a thing to say. Truth and honesty do count; however, being brutal kind of like knowledge makes a bloody entrance; is not what people should get if they sincerely wish information. And that is what doggiedog is doing. She is honestly and sincerely asking for information.


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## angelaw

I was being nice and I was giving factual information. I am also very upfront. if you want to consider that brutal, so be it. I don't appreciate being misquoted. There was no need for personal attacks as I didn't resort to that. I thought we were having a discussion and exchange of ideas, oh well.

With that, cruella deville signing off of this thread.


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## honeypickle1

Angela,

Whatever. But I did learn some things from you today as well as others.


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## Doggydog

Well this thread is so much of posters saying the same things over and over ad nauseam. 
But can anyone show me the evidence that the Panda marked GSDs are poor quality dogs? Otherwise why assume the worst case without verification.



Historian said:


> Quote:
> I think that this is what makes a lot of people uncomfortable with many breeders. When you ask a breeder to show you evidence their dogs can work, the breeder should be showing you what their breeding stock has earned, not refer you to puppy buyers to talk to.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked her for these contacts because otherwise I'd be left to trust the seller's assertions, and I wanted more proof than her word. She was very kind to put me in touch with her customers and they were very generous to share their experience with me. I could not travel to Ohio to see her operation, so I wanted more information in order to trust. The fact that she seemed to know what she's talking about was not enough for me, I live in NYC after all. I was impressed that she was willing to allow me access to her clients, it showed me that she had faith that I would not hear anything that contradicted what she told me.
> 
> Many pages ago, I asked if SAR is considered work. Because I know some pandas are doing this. I don't know of any doing Sch training, but I don't think it's because they aren't capable of it. {when I say I don't know of any it is not the same as saying none are doing.}
> I know Cindy is showing and has much success in that area. I don't care for that type of thing myself and I don't think that necessarily indicates a "good" dog either. But she likes it and she's apparently good at it.
Click to expand...


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## WiscTiger

SAR is work in my opinion.


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## girlll_face

This dog is currently in a shelter that labelled her as a shepherd mix. I however was wondering if she looks to be a panda. I think she is...I don't know.


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## BowWowMeow

It's more likely that she's a cattle dog x gsd.


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## gsdlove212

I have been trying to follow this thread to the best of my ability. "If" the Panda is recognized as a seperate breed...then if one of the parents is not also a Panda, then wouldn't it be a mixed breed? I, personally do not agree with having the Panda be its own breed. After all it really isn't, is it? Genetically it is a GSD. Whats next a seperate breed for Long hair GSDs, Blues, Livers, etc. ? In my opionion, the breed standard is there for a reason...it sets the IDEAL. The goal, so to speak. Sure they are all gorgeous, and great dogs...but just because someone will get chastized for breeding against standard does not IMO mean to make it a seperate breed. Another thing I noticed, Doggiedad...I know you say your GSD can work, because her father and his side is all SchH titled. But that is only half of her genetics. Wouldn't that mean there is a 50% chance that your dog inherited the temperment and drives needed to work? I do not think that this makes your girl any less valuable or great as your companion. But it would create issues if you were planning to breed without knowing for sure (by trialing and titling her) that she posseses what it takes to better fit the standard of a working dog. So that, I think is the biggest question people are posing about the breeding of the Pandas. Are they being bred to better the GSD breed (despite their color)? Or are they being bred because they are good dogs who look unique? Rest assured this discussion has moved well beyond "just a different color". There have been plenty of self proclaimed "breeders" bluntly educated on this board about breeding responsibly. I think that this is a big concern. I also do not recognize the first person to come across a genetic mutation as the founder of the breed. She may have been the first to discover the color, but the breed has been aroung much longer than even she has been. Interesting thread though. The Panda colorings are interesting, and they are beautiful...but then again I love all GSDs, even the "flawed" ones....doesn't mean I would encourage breeding them or calling them a seperate breed. Again, jsut my 2 cents


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## honeypickle1

Thanks Bella,

She doesn't look like a Panda Shepherd. I doubt seriously that she is. Most Pandas I know of are either black and white or tri colored. They also have one solid black eye or two solid black eyes.


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## girlll_face

Oh, I don't know much about them at all. That little girl fooled me! I wonder what she is...pretty, that's for sure.


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## honeypickle1

gsdlove,

While I would love to give you answer; I think its best that you contact Cindy McCann herself. She would be able to answer any of your questions far better than I can. Also, if you are concerned about the color mutation gene and why it is different; Dr Neff of UCLA at Davis could give you a better understanding.


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## honeypickle1

my baby bella,

She sure is. I hate to see these dogs end up in shelters. It breaks my heart. She looks to be black and silver or black and gray.


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## honeypickle1

my baby bella,

Geez, I told you my eye sight was bad. LOL She is definately not black and silver or black and gray. Sorry about that.


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## gsdlove212

Honeypickle, I am not concerned about the gene and why its different. To me it is nothing but a new color variation. Afterall, these dogs are GSDs and there is DNA evidence to prove it. And while I might take you up on the offer to contact Cindy McCann directly, I would assume that since you are a breeder as well (or planning to be) that you can share what your dogs can bring to the table genetically speaking, besides a new color? This is not intended to bash, I am jsut curious to know. I would like to get into breeding myself someday...but I would have to know that I am bettering the breed and not just because I feel like my dogs are awesome beyond words...I would need proof of that. And titles do show that their are actions behind my words. You know what I mean?


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## honeypickle1

gsdlove. 

I appreciate your questions; and I would very much like you to contact Cindy.

I am not sure if you are asking what my dog can bring to the Panda Shepherd or the GSD?


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: gsdlove212I have been trying to follow this thread to the best of my ability. "If" the Panda is recognized as a seperate breed...then if one of the parents is not also a Panda, then wouldn't it be a mixed breed? I, personally do not agree with having the Panda be its own breed. After all it really isn't, is it? Genetically it is a GSD. Whats next a seperate breed for Long hair GSDs, Blues, Livers, etc. ? In my opionion, the breed standard is there for a reason...it sets the IDEAL.


Well, that is what they did with the Belgian Shepherd, isn't it? We now have the different colors and coat types recognized as separate breeds in the US (Laekenois, Malinois, Tervuren and the "Belgian Sheepdog" aka Groenendael.) The only real difference is the coat, the rest of the standard is very similar between them and in other countries they are considered to be all one breed. 
This is seen in several other breeds as well. For instance if it wasn't for breeding for coat type and color we might not have the separate breeds of terriers we have today (such as Westies, Scottish Terriers and Cairns.)


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## Doggydog

GSDLOVE, I'm impressed with anyone who can follow this thread at this point! lol.


> Originally Posted By: gsdlove212 Doggiedad...I know you say your GSD can work, because her father and his side is all SchH titled. But that is only half of her genetics. Wouldn't that mean there is a 50% chance that your dog inherited the temperment and drives needed to work? I do not think that this makes your girl any less valuable or great as your companion. But it would create issues if you were planning to breed without knowing for sure (by trialing and titling her) that she posseses what it takes to better fit the standard of a working dog.


Firstly, I am not breeding. There's waaaay too many unwanted dogs dying every day because there are not enough homes. The last thing I would want to do is contribute to that by being a hobby novice breeder. That's why I already clarified that I am not breeding, showing, working. It wouldn't be necessary for my dog to be titled in work since I don't intend to do these things. 
I brought up my puppy's sire because there was a lot of criticism that there was no working dogs in the panda's lines. I did not intend to imply that it meant my dog can work, but it certainly should indicate that she may have inherited the ability to. The other 1/2 of the genetics are RB CH, INT CH, CD, SCH I, SCH III, UCD, SCH, WH, UCD, FH, SCH WH. 
I didn't mention it earlier because I only know what 1/2 that means and since I was being flamed for not having a working line dog, I thought that having a sire with an entire line of titled SCH II & III would be the information that the posters were wondering about. Also, I had the understanding that the question was what kind of line is being breed with the panda. And certainly the titles on the panda dame's side are not as impressive. Still it shows potential to inherit the ability to do what the breed was founded for.

I understand that some would prefer that the breeder was working the dogs. But it doesn't mean that her dogs aren't good because she enjoys showing and has CH titles rather than SCH. 
Unless someone can prove that these dogs are crappy, I don't buy it.


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## girlll_face

HP,
That's why I thought maybe she was panda. Her colors strikingly resemble the tri pandas I've seen.


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## honeypickle1

My baby bella,

LOL I know.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:Well this thread is so much of posters saying the same things over and over ad nauseam.
> But can anyone show me the evidence that the Panda marked GSDs are poor quality dogs? Otherwise why assume the worst case without verification.


People are saying "the same things over and over" because other people are not actually reading and comprehending the posts, causing them to make assumptions and jump to conclusions.

NOBODY has said ANYWHERE in this thread that panda marked GSDs are poor quality dogs. 

However, people have ASKED exactly WHAT titles are on Phenom's BREEDING STOCK. (Clarify: I am NOT saying Phenom are bad breeders or that their dogs are bad, so don't jump to conclusions!) Not sires they breed in from other owners, not down the line, but on their actual breeding stock. The reason people keep asking this question is because the answer is NOT found on the Phenom website, which says nothing about titles (though I found a GCG mentioned on one of the girls's papers), and nobody in this thread who has a Phenom dog has yet answered this question. (Clarify: I am NOT saying Phenom are bad breeders, so don't jump to conclusions!)



> Quote:I asked her for these contacts because otherwise I'd be left to trust the seller's assertions, and I wanted more proof than her word. She was very kind to put me in touch with her customers and they were very generous to share their experience with me. I could not travel to Ohio to see her operation, so I wanted more information in order to trust. The fact that she seemed to know what she's talking about was not enough for me, I live in NYC after all. I was impressed that she was willing to allow me access to her clients, it showed me that she had faith that I would not hear anything that contradicted what she told me.


You've got the right idea in never trusting a seller's assertion, since an assertion without proof means nothing. If you wanted more proof, however, asking for the dog's health certificates (such as OFA) and the dog's title certificates would have provided you with much more proof of her breeding stock's abilities than talking to other customers.

You should not be impressed by your breeder's willingness to put you in touch with former clients. ANY breeder that keeps records of whom they sell puppies to will have a list of happy customers they will be happy to give a future puppy buyers. And even the worst breeders (Clarify: I am NOT saying Phenom are bad breeders, so don't jump to conclusions!) will have some happy puppy buyers. Heck, even the Alsatian Shepalute people have "happy customer stories" on their website ...

And just because someone "seems to know what they're talking about" doesn't mean they do. (Clarify: I am NOT saying Phenom are bad breeders, so don't jump to conclusions!)


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:I didn't mention it earlier because I only know what 1/2 that means and since I was being flamed for not having a working line dog, I thought that having a sire with an entire line of titled SCH II & III would be the information that the posters were wondering about.


At NO point in this thread did ANYONE flame you. Actually, the only name-calling I've seen on this thread has come from you!


----------



## selzer

From more of a show prospective, when I see the colors black and tan, on a dog in a pedigree, I get a picture of a black and tan saddle or a black and tan blanket. I cannot even remember if there is a line item on the AKC registration form for bi-color or if they just lump them in black and tan. 

However, I am not thinking black and tan and a face, neck, chest, and paws of white. 

In the ring, a bit of white on the chest is not frowned on. It used to be a small spot of white, now there are huge splotches of white which I find completely undesireable. Good think I am not a judge. However color is underneath structure and temperament -- in the conformation ring, working ability cannot be tested, that is tested and titled separately and I think it should be separate. But if I had to great looking shepherds with similar temperaments, the one without a large splotch of white on the chest would get first place. 

Before DNA was used widely to determine parentage, a litter that had puppies that looked like mixes and puppies that looked the ordinary color, well the breeder would probably think that at some point there was a lapse in security and a neighboring marauder got lucky, maybe THROUGH the fence. 

What is to be done? Having pups that look like mixes would compramise the whole litter. I could see a breeder culling these pups and registering only the normal colored pups. 

If the owner was sure that these were pups out of his pure bitch and only an dog that also was indisputably pure, then the bitch owner would not want people to tell others that they got the mutated dog from him. Think about it. If you want a dog that will produce show quality puppies for you, you would not want to be surprised by these genetic mutation dogs, sorry. I can see dogs being culled for that reason too. Just like they would cull livers and blues and whites and coats. I am not condoning it, but I can see it happening. 

If I had a puppy like this in one of my litters, I would sell it without any registration papers at all. To me it does not represent the breed. It can still make a great pet. But it should never be bred. I would probably not repeat a breeding that produced this dog either. 

I love the very distinctive look of German Shepherd Dogs. I am partial to black and tan blankets, but I like bi-s and sables. I am not crazy about blacks, blues, whites, livers, creams, or dogs that have no or a faded saddle/blanket. It is pure opinion. I get a picture in my head about a GSD and it certainly does not resemble a beagle in a shepherd shell. 

Now that these dogs are being listed as black and tan, shepherd breeders have to know what is behind there dogs, actual pictures or first hand knowledge of the dogs, and not just a picture of the stud, etc. I think from a conformation standpoint, the panda shepherds are doing no favors to the breed.


----------



## honeypickle1

selzer

Has it ever occured to you that we are just as proud of the Panda Shepherd as you are of the GSD?


----------



## selzer

honeypickle, sorry, dude, but I can have an opinion and discuss from a conformation perpective what I think about raising dogs specifically for a color problem.


----------



## honeypickle1

Well, first of all my name isn't dude. Yes you can have an opinion; etc. And I resent that you are calling this a color problem. It's really difficult to discuss anything with a person who is prejudged in her thinking.


----------



## khurley

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1selzer
> 
> Has it ever occured to you that we are just as proud of the Panda Shepherd as you are of the GSD?


This statement doesn't really make sense to me. The Panda Shepherd IS a GSD....isn't that what breeders who breed specifically for the Panda coloring have fought so hard to prove and educate others about?


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## honeypickle1

khurley,

I am sorry; I don't quite understand what you are saying. Maybe, it's because I am tired.


----------



## khurley

> Originally Posted By: doggydog]]I said I want to enjoy her as a pet and companion. To that you replied "just pets and not requiring more than just a nice pet DOES compromise the breed." Hmmm, by that guideline, most members of this site are watering the breed because they enjoy their GSD's as companions and don't herd or protection train?


Only if they're breeding them.









The only way you can water down the breed is by breeding dogs that are not up to standard.

I have a rescue GSD that I do not intentionally work (although she has deemed herself in charge of killing anything with wings that dares enter the airspace of our backyard







). I enjoy her very much as a pet. She's WAY above standard in size, her ears are too big, her nose is too long (and a bit Romanesque), her eyes are too light.....I'm sure she has several other faults that would render her not breed worthy. However, she will never water down the breed because I would never breed her.

Breeding dogs that do not have the correct temperament and drive does harm the breed and it should behoove anyone who cares about the future of the breed not to support those (i.e. purchase dogs from) that don't take necessary measures to breed dogs whose temperaments and drives are tested and proven. If we do, we ARE responsible for watering down the breed.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Amarug
> 
> Maybe I should have made myself more clear. Some of us are not familar with SCH and herding except in a passing nod.


Again it is a Q. Regardless.....

Based on this statement from you I would assume you do not work your breeding stock as was asked several pages ago when you merely answered that my question did not make sense. 

Please correct me if I am wrong as I am just trying to understand; from what I have gathered from your posts:

*you are a breeder of the panda shepherds 

*you are working with the person who "originated" them as a separate breed but yet the same person fought to prove that they were in fact a German Shepherd dog- cncluding that they are the same as a GSD but they are GOING to be a separate breed

*you show your dogs in a rare dog breed arena- is there a specific organization (would love a website to learn more about this- quite honestly I have a hard enough time finding AKC or SV shows I would assume "rare breed" shows would be fewer and further between)

*you are doing health screening

*you are not working your dogs in any title endeavor- just as a therapy dog (again nothing wrong with that- just trying to understand your POV)


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: doggydog
> Many pages ago, I asked if SAR is considered work. Because I know some pandas are doing this.


I am sorry I missed this:

Quite honestly this is not a simple yes or no answer and it can be quite complex. Basically if the dog is certified to set standards by an independent organization and impartial 3rd party (not a member of the same SAR team that the dog trains and, once certified, would be on callouts for) than Yes that is a working dog. If the dog is certified by a specific teams standards and by a fellow team member than NO. That however is another VERY long discussion which you can check out the SAR section on this board as there have been several discussions fairly recently on this very subject.


----------



## honeypickle1

Amaruq

I have answered all of those questions; but thanks for asking again.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Amaruq
> 
> I have answered all of those questions; but thanks for asking again.


As I said I was just asking if I understood your posts correctly. I was not asking any other question. Did I inturpret your posts correctly?


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## honeypickle1

Amaruq,

I have no idea if you understood the posts correctly or not. I would think you could go review them and come to your own conclusions.


----------



## Doggydog

I want to explain that I was working with a dial up today, and my posts were entered so long after the fact that I was way out of sync. I was handicapped with a severe time lapse. In reading the entire thread now I see many messages that I missed entirely. Life wo high speed connection can be difficult.

I thought that herding and protection were the natural and desireable traits. If SCH title doesn't indicate good genetics, and sar is not actually work. 
Then what exactly is considered work? Ie, what kind of title would a reputable breeder put to the stock to indicate it's ability to work? Aside from keeping the herd, which is obvious. I'm not breeding Jiva btw (as I've already mentioned). 

My preference above all other color is for the bicolor and the blanket backs esp. w/ red tones. Imo tho coat color is the least important of the breed's aspects. Of course you're entitiled to your pov. But I still think my baby is sporting a very pretty mutation. Every living thing is the result of mutation.


----------



## Doggydog

Historian,
"people have ASKED exactly WHAT titles are on Phenom's BREEDING STOCK. (Clarify: I am NOT saying Phenom are bad breeders or that their dogs are bad, so don't jump to conclusions!) Not sires they breed in from other owners, not down the line, but on their actual breeding stock."

My dog's sire belongs to the breeder. I don't know why he's not on their website. And both parents and grandparents have ofa certified hips. I think also the ggp, but I didn't see that documentation. The Phenom division of their business pertains to the pandas & whites. They have another kennel name for the others and it is a reasonable guess that the sires aren't on the Phenom site because they're not pandas or whites. But that's something the breeder knows, not I.
Of course it's not that I don't understand your posts. You are knowledgeable and I appreciate your participation in this discussion. However, I've said several times that I am not comfortable speaking for the breeder, that questions about her breeding stock are better answered by her. 
In no way do I mean to disrespect you. On the contrary. I'm being very sincere here. I realize that you know much more about my breed of choice than I. I respect that. I'm just curious about the manner in which you write because there has been a distinct and obvious negative tone to many of the postings {not only yours} in this thread. What could have been an interesting and informative discussion descended into snarky remarks and insults. My comments have been the source of rude and condescending responses. Maybe it's unintentional and you don't realize you sound like that, or maybe you just are that way. That's fine I guess, everyone has their quirks. Good and sensible information needn't be delivered with a club. 
Why do you emphasize with the caps like you're aggro if we're simply having a Q&A? 

I repeat: the titles on my GSD's sire line are SCH II and III. On the dame's side RB CH, INT CH, CD, SCH I, SCH III, UCD, SCH, WH, UCD, FH, SCH WH. 
It appears to me that the dame was breed with this sire for his work titled background, to strengyhen and enhance what the dame brings. But once again, this is not my line of dogs. The breeder knows her intentions. 
I don't think it's a leap of faith for me to think that my dog my indeed carry the genetics necessary to the breed. 

My blood level is very normal. Hope yours is too.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: honeypickle1Amaruq,
> 
> I have no idea if you understood the posts correctly or not. I would think you could go review them and come to your own conclusions.


I simply recapped what I thought I understood from your posts because earlier today you totally misunderstood something that I posted. I am just trying to understand. Since you do not seem to want to reply to my simple questions I am left to ASSUME I understood you correctly but I prefer to not make such assumptions on something I am trying to learn about. I thought the question was valid and pretty simple- either I understood and re-capped/paraphrased correctly or I didn't in which I would appreciate you clarifying any misunderstandings that I had. I figured since you seemed to be in the early levels of this "breed" and considered yourself a breeder that my questions would be fairly easy to answer and, if I am not correct, you would clarify so that I am sure I understand. 

If it is too much to ask I apologize for wasting your time. I would have thought someone trying to get their "breed" recognized would be interested in sharing about them and correcting any misconceptions.


----------



## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: doggydogI repeat: the titles on my GSD's sire line are SCH II and III. On the dame's side RB CH, INT CH, CD, SCH I, SCH III, UCD, SCH, WH, UCD, FH, SCH WH.


So your pup's sire an ddam have those titles?


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: doggydogI repeat: the titles on my GSD's sire line are SCH II and III. On the dame's side RB CH, INT CH, CD, SCH I, SCH III, UCD, SCH, WH, UCD, FH, SCH WH.


Without looking them up and with no sleep yet.....

CH and INT CH are conformation titles in some Non-German style show (Thinking AKC but could be UKC or CKC I think)

CD and UCD are Obedience titles I believe by AKC (could be the UKC/CKC too)

SCH I, II and/or III are Schutzhund titles. 

FH is a German style tracking title

WH (if I recall) is a watch dog type of German title (can't remember the German name for it though)

RB I am not sure off the top of my head


----------



## ahlamarana

> Originally Posted By: doggydog
> My girl's sire was Darth Raider.


 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/484767.html


----------



## Doggydog

Good morning

Thanks Amaruq,
I didn't know what some of that was. RB is rare breed. I thought cd was companion dog, that's my guess only. 

Barb,
both the dame & sire hold some, but of course not all of those titles. But yes they are titled.

But again I must say that to answer questions about the breeding stock, which dogs have which titles, why the decision to mate which pair, etc. really should be answered by the breeder. As a novice, I saw evidence in both lines that my dog should have a chance (I thought a good chance} of inheriting the abilities. But I am not a breeder myself and I am not willing to extrapolate on the Phenom line lest i I cause more harm than good. I wouldn't want to misrepresent. 
If I was interested in doing protection training, showing, breeding, then I would have done more research and been a more knowledgeable customer. 
But for my intentions, what I learned about the stock was sufficient.


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## Doggydog

Sarah, thanks for posting that pedigree. Isn't he beautiful!


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## WiscTiger

I am closing this thread. It past the point where it is useful and within the board rules.

Wisc.Tiger - Admin
Val


----------



## BIS HANDLER

*Panda Shepherd info*

My name is Tino Maggio and I am a Professional Handler. My main breed is German Shepherd Dogs, however, I am an all breed handler and have handled almost every breed in the AKC. My client, Cindy Whitaker had the very first Panda. Her name was Frankie. She was born of two normal GSD's. Cindy had DNA testing done on Frankie to confirm that she is 100% German Shepherd. The Pandas are NOT larger, NOT more laid back, NOT anything other than a German Shepherd that has some really cool markings. Cindy's kennel name is Phenom Shepherds. She can be found on Facebook or at Error . The guy in the photo winning the American & Canadian National shows with her dog Sugar is me. That's also me winning an American National with her dog Rikki. To my knowledge, nobody is attempting breed separation or breed recognition with the AKC, as these are already AKC registered German Shepherd Dogs. Also to my knowledge, I could walk one of these into any AKC German Shepherd Conformation ring. Another client of mine, who happens to be Sugar's breeder is Marion Lopizzo of Furrari Kennel in Toronto, Canada. Marion has a gorgeous Panda named Flash. If you get a chance, do yourself a favor and look up Flash on Marion's website Furrari Kennels | White GSD . BTW, the guy in the photo winning the Canadian Nationals this year with her 8 1/2 year old stud Baron is me too !!!


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## MaggieRoseLee

Welcome to the forum BIS HANDLER! Nice to have another person for the conformation ring and knowledge of panda's is extra. 

Hope you have a bit of a thick skin cause we tend to prefer the 'working' lines here but the more conformation people the more balanced the opinions and I say better for the forum.


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## ILGHAUS

So per BIS HANDLER there are no plans at this time for Panda's to become their own breed. I know that question was asked many times in the previous posts but was never really answered. At the best it was implied yes and then followed up several posts later with an implied no. 

But, if shown as a rare breed to my way of thinking that is saying the Panda is not a GSD but a different breed. They have their own breed standard so if on her website Cindy Whitaker lists Panda Shepherd Standard instead of German Shepherd Standard that then sounds like "the founder" looks at these dogs as not being GSDs. 
Phenom Shepherds - The Panda Shepherd Standard

At this point I am out of the thread except maybe to read as I have no knowledge on this topic. And the more I read the more confused I am becoming. BIS HANDLER says no plans while Cindy Whitaker has a standard for Pandas and dogs are shown as other in certain venues. One of the main dogs "Johnnie" shown on the site has a Championship Certificate showing *Breed: Panda Shepherd*
Phenom Shepherds - Johnnie


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## Hineni7

If you think about the h. e. l. l. white German Shepherd went through until finally finding a niche and becoming a separate breed (even though basically a GSD) you can understand the confusion of where to place them. You have the strictly basic color camp that disqualifies anything other than standard colors, then you have the camp where they recognize that this is a GSD but has a mutation to the coat, and there are probably camps of in between or undecided.. It will take time to figure out where these dogs should fit in, if color is the only real difference or if the Shepherd traits don't follow...


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