# WARNING GRAPHIC! Police shooting dog while owner having a seizure



## Mrs.K

And didn't finish the job. Letting him bleed out and suffer ALL THE WAY THROUGH! This is horrendous...

*Jay posted that the dog is supposedly alive and at the ACC. *


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## Wolfgeist

When the dog got shot, I literally screamed and started to cry. This video cut me so deep... I can't even... I would have killed that cop and probably been shot too. Oh my god, the rage I feel is unreal.


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## Mrs.K

Wild Wolf said:


> When the dog got shot, I literally screamed and started to cry. This video cut me so deep... I can't even... I would have killed that cop and probably been shot too. Oh my god, the rage I feel is unreal.


Me too, when you watch through you see the whole ordeal of that dog and the screaming. Makes my heart break. :help:
And then later on the guy saying, "The guy had a seizure, the dog attacked the cop, cop shot the dog, I would have done the same thing." 

That dog could have been dealt with otherwise. 

Jay just posted that the dog is supposedly alive and at the ACC...


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## GatorDog

Yeah, the article linked says that the dog is still alive. Still very graphic and horrific either way.


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## Wolfgeist

Mrs.K said:


> Me too, when you watch through you see the whole ordeal of that dog and the screaming. Makes my heart break. :help:
> And then later on the guy saying, "The guy had a seizure, the dog attacked the cop, cop shot the dog, I would have done the same thing."
> 
> That dog could have been dealt with otherwise.
> 
> Jay just posted that the dog is supposedly alive and at the ACC...


To see the dog writhing in pain, flipping around, obviously in tremendous agony.. I can't bear it at all... 

I am sorry, but the dog probably would have done to the cop what he did to the other one that approached. A warning snap and release - back to the owner to defend. A spray of mace probably would have been more than enough.

Shoot first, ask later... so disgusting..

I hope the dog is alive, but is okay... no clue where it got shot. It was obviously in shock and agony when it started thrashing around again... that was so so horrible to witness...


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## onyx'girl

can't watch it...just from WW's comments. Too many sick and sad things in life. I hope the dog survives.


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## Mrs.K

I hope so too. What's even more disturbing is that nobody checked on the guy. Makes one wonder what the heck they shot the dog for in the first place.


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## TrickyShepherd

....Wow.... I just felt my heart drop out of my chest... That was so painful to watch. 

I hate people.


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## Freddy

As the father of a child with epilepsy and a GSD that alerts to his seizures, I shudder to think that could possibly happen to us. 

My dog would have protected my son, and I hope someone would have been there to prevent his shooting.


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## Lucy Dog

I watched, but turned the volume off. Couldn't listen to that dog yelp in pain.

In the officers defense, the dog did go at him in an aggressive way and looked like he was going to bite. The situation was handled horribly after that initial shot, but I can't blame the officer for shooting. It could have been handled differently, but it's a split second decision. The dog shouldn't have had to suffer though.

Pepper spray would have been a much better decision than a bullet.


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## ken k

well, my 2 cents, tragic, i dont know if anyone noticed but the bullet ricocheted, could have hit the other cop or someone standing there, stupid move on the cops part


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## Wolfgeist

I honestly think, based on how the dog charged the first person and delivered a warning bite, that the dog would have done the same thing to the officer. Would not have been a bad bite. He would have charged the officer to push him back then returned to his owners side. Officers should have known that the dog was agitated and in defense, and therefore should have called animal handlers to the scene and kept up with crowd control - NOT approach the dog! 

After the dog was down, the cop did not check ... - NOBODY - checked on the person... what does that say? He obviously didn't shoot the dog in a desperate attempt to save the man.


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## PatchonGSD

It MIGHT have been one thing to *have* to shoot the dog if the dog was keeping the officers or paramedics from saving the guys life, but ****, they just let him lay there even after the dog was no longer a threat. 

So sad, hopefully dog and owner can be reunited.


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## Mrs.K

Apparently ACC was already on the way and the whole ordeal could have been avoided. At least from what my friend Jay says who is involved with ACC and the Shelters in NY. 

If they had at least checked up on him or let EMS through... but the guy is having a seizures for god knows how long, and the video itself is almost 10 minutes long and nobody cared about the guy at all.


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## msvette2u

> Would not have been a bad bite.


So the officer is supposed to take the bite - putting him quite possibly down, on the ground, and at risk for being injured worse...??
Anything that puts a guy out of work and without a pay check...why would you want that? The man works for a living and to be out of commission on a street in NY...not safe at all! Their job is to protect the public and themselves, not look out for dogs and take bites because "it wouldn't have been that bad...!"

I'm so sick of videos that just incite hatred towards LEOs 

BTW, my husband is a paramedic - and what the officer on scene (in the vid) did is "secure the scene", by removing threats. I'm glad they do that. The LEOs will secure the scene, removing any threat that would get in the way of my husband doing his job, including a dog that may give a bite, that while, "not that bad...", has the potential to put a guy down (immediate effect) and even cause long term problems such as infection; in a worst case scenario, a dog could even nick an artery, and kill a person - it's been known to happen. 
Not cool at all


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> So the officer is supposed to take the bite - putting him quite possibly down, on the ground, and at risk for being injured worse...??
> Anything that puts a guy out of work and without a pay check...why would you want that? The man works for a living and to be out of commission on a street in NY...not safe at all! Their job is to protect the public and themselves, not look out for dogs and take bites because "it wouldn't have been that bad...!"
> 
> I'm so sick of videos that just incite hatred towards LEOs


From what I know, ACC was already activated and on the way. 

Since they shot the dog, can anyone give me a good reason why the owner was never even looked after? Makes the whole ordeal pointless. And I too believe that this dog could have been dealt with differently and once the dog was shot they should have rushed to the mans aid. 

It's absolutely outrageous, disturbing and frightening that an LEO would let you lay in a ditch like that. :help:


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## msvette2u

Because the officers are _not_ medics, and also it seems (from the comments on the youtube) the guy was under the influence, not having a seizure. Well, maybe they coincided, I didn't see seizure activity.
The cops were mostly doing crowd control from the looks of it. 
They were making the scene safe for the medics to get in there.

BTW, how many people (including police officers) need to be bitten before it's okay to take the dog out?


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## Mrs.K

Come on. Shooting in a crowd like that is dangerous, especially since they just had an incident where officer shot a teenager instead of a dog. 

Police mistakenly shoot teen while fending off pitbull - NYPOST.com


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## msvette2u

I never said it was not. I'm sure at that point it was the lesser of the two "evils". I do not believe officers should be expected to "take one for the team", ever.


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> I never said it was not. I'm sure at that point it was the lesser of the two "evils". I do not believe officers should be expected to "take one for the team", ever.


Me neither. However, I also think the dog could have been dealt with differently if they had approached him differently from the beginning while he was still standing between the poles. 
What the heck do they have the long-pole for if they don't use it. Off course, once the dog was shot, they pulled it out to drag him away. If they had done that from the beginning, utilized the long-pole, this whole incident could have been avoided and EMS could have gotten through quicker.


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## msvette2u

Yes but that is not their job - that's Animal Control's job to deal with dogs. Cops deal with humans - not dogs, although dogs get thrown into their line of work, unfortunately.

The thing about these discussions is that nobody actually "gets" how it is to wear that uniform, put it on daily, kiss your spouse and kids goodbye and wonder if you'll get home that night.
Until we do - I don't think we should sit in judgement of what they do when they are out there literally hoping and praying they stay alive until they get off shift.

I might add that although we were in a backyard, and no crowd was around, I actually requested that the officer on scene shoot a dog charging at us that way. I had my "long pole" out - and knew I'd never be able to get that charging dog on that danged pole! I mean yah, but in the meantime a bite is most likely going to occur - this was a very aggressive dog who was there guarding a bitch in heat (OFF his property - dog was a stray). 

After dodging the dog a few times, I turned to the Sheriff and said "this is not worth being bitten over", and that was that.


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## Wolfgeist

I married a U.S Marine, and I have two police officers in my close family. I have the utmost respect for most law enforcement.

I still think this cop should have done things VERY differently. If he didn't charge the dog and waited for the ACC to arrive, I honestly believe it would have been okay. The dog, bred by humans and forced to live in a human world despite NOT BEING HUMAN, was shot and left to suffer for doing exactly what it is designed to do. Very responsible police officer, since he couldn't come up with a better solution -- just approach the dog protecting it's fallen owner and shoot to kill when it does what the cop knows he will do!


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## msvette2u

PS. "long poles" (rabies/catch poles) are not as easy to use as all that - especially in an open area like that. It's much easier when the dog isn't 1) charging at you and 2) if there's a fence or something to back it up against.
Also - you mention pepper spray - one gust of wind and you're getting innocent people with it! What if there's an asthmatic in the crowd? Now you have two - or more - people down.
Tazer? You can miss. It can backfire and make the dog more aggressive, especially if you only get one prong in.
And you can always hit a bystander with that too.
I agree it wasn't the best solution in that scenario - but none of the others were that viable either, and they needed the dog out of there.


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## Mrs.K

As a matter of fact I somewhat know. I was an intern with the police in Germany. Not the same, I know, but it does give you a certain insight. We did get to see a lot of things and went through the different departments. I do understand, however, you don't see that many dogs being shot over there, even when something like that happens, dogs are dealt with otherwise. 

Barely any dog gets shot in Germany by cops. If it does happen, it'll make news big time. However, they will get shot in the woods for running at large. Hunters shoot more dogs than the police. So yeah, I just see it from an entirely different standpoint and know for a fact that it can be dealt with in a different manner. 

But I guess it's just wishful thinking because over here, things are just being dealt with differently. Different culture...


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## msvette2u

I know for a fact it can be dealt with differently too. 
But I'm not going to armchair quarterback this because I'm here at home, and they were there. We weren't.
And once again - they are trained to deal with every aspect of human behavior, not dog.


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> I know for a fact it can be dealt with differently too.
> But I'm not going to armchair quarterback this because I'm here at home, and they were there. We weren't.
> And once again - they are trained to deal with every aspect of human behavior, not dog.


Honestly, it would have probably cost the same amount of time to give the dog space, wait for ACC and let them deal with it as it did to shoot the dog and then control the crowd. It's not like they never even looked at the guy that was laying on the ground or anyone ever even checked up on his breathing IN TEN MINUTES and you can't tell me that Cops don't have CPR or First Aid!


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## FirstTimeGSD

Someone remind me, just real quick, why police carry tasers? If it's their duty to work with/protect humans...why are so many homeless PEOPLE getting killed from excessive use of tasers? So...potentially dangerous homeless person gets tased, a dog gets shot in the eyeball? The police are trained to handle people who are out of sorts mentally, even agressive. But a dog gets near and they get shot in the eye. When a police officer pulls his weapon, and makes the decision to discharge...he shoots to kill, not to wound/maim. This guy made a frantic half-assed decision to take a pop shot at this "charging" dog, shot him IN THE EYE, and sat there with 10 different people recording letting this dog wail and scream. Even if you made the argument that he was shooting to kill, the fact is he did not. He shot the dog in the f*cking eye, and then made the decision to NOT shoot anymore. Someone already pointed out how dangerous that shot already was, even if he had killed the dog. Shooting your weapon almost straight down, 3 feet away from pavement....it's a wonder nobody else got hurt. This officer was 100% in the wrong. Will be watching this story closely to see what happen to the officer who took the shot. (I don't often side against LOE's in these types of situations, but this is one time I would like to see some action taken).


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## msvette2u

Well I'm off to bed, but wanted to point out - the dog was charging the public too.
And again - it's the officers duty FIRST to protect the public, and themselves.

**People's lives _are _considered more valuable than dog's, btw. 



> Shooting your weapon almost straight down, 3 feet away from pavement....it's a wonder nobody else got hurt.


**This is how you kill a dog. I don't know why the officer didn't finish the dog - perhaps he thought it was dying (at first it appeared that way). Anyway- had he shot straight out at the dog, I could see that being a worse problem. The bullet went in, as supposed to, and stayed, as supposed to. I don't know where it entered but straight down through the skull is the way you shoot (to kill) a dog.

I know y'all just want to argue, though, so have at it, I guess :shrug:
G'nite


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## Wolfgeist

msvette2u said:


> I know y'all just want to argue, though, so have at it, I guess :shrug:
> G'nite


No, it's not worth the time/energy/care to argue with someone I don't know online. Internet is serious business, and all that.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Are you all freaking kidding me? The dog went after one person then went after the cop and his partner shot the dog.

"He should have used a taser" "He should have used a pole"

Seriously you all need a reality check. No dogs life is worth more than a humans.

My boyfriend is a cop, as you all know, because I post on all these posts about police "brutality".

A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog.

"The officer should have known the dog was agitated and..." Are you kidding????

GOOD JOB OFFICER FOR PROTECTING YOUR PARTNER! 

If my boyfriend had been the officer on the left and his partner shot the dog about to ATTACK him, you better believe his partner would be my BEST friend.

And you are complaining that he only shot the dog once? I remember a month or so ago when someone posted about how an officer shot a dog three times and complained about it.

My boyfriend has been bitten and almost bitten by pitbulls and other dogs more times than I could count if I had four hands.


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## x0emiroxy0x

If Rocky attacked a police officer trying to help me, I would 100% understand him being shot. And I love my dog more than anything in the world.


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## Mrs.K

Honestly, that woman was the trigger. Why was she standing there in the first place? Sensation, that's the only reason. Gaffing, getting a closer look at the poor guy that's passed out and nobody gives a **** about!


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## sparra

What I find most disturbing about that footage is that once the dog was shot NOBODY actually attempted to see if the bloke having the fit was OK.....a good couple minutes went before anyone checked him....they were all screaming about the dog while this guy lies on the ground recovering from a seizure without anyone to talk to him and let him know they were there.....that to me is sadder than the dog being shot.....


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## x0emiroxy0x

If cops don't have training they are not allowed to touch the person. It is a liability.


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## x0emiroxy0x

sparra said:


> What I find most disturbing about that footage is that once the dog was shot NOBODY actually attempted to see if the bloke having the fit was OK.....a good couple minutes went before anyone checked him....they were all screaming about the dog while this guy lies on the ground recovering from a seizure without anyone to talk to him and let him know they were there.....that to me is sadder than the dog being shot.....



You have every right to wonder this...and thanks for asking it in a nice way rather than berating police officers.


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## Mrs.K

sparra said:


> What I find most disturbing about that footage is that once the dog was shot NOBODY actually attempted to see if the bloke having the fit was OK.....a good couple minutes went before anyone checked him....they were all screaming about the dog while this guy lies on the ground recovering from a seizure without anyone to talk to him and let him know they were there.....that to me is sadder than the dog being shot.....


Yep! Which makes the entire ordeal so darn pointless... they might as well have given that dog space and wait for AC to arrive to let them do their job since the cops didn't even bother to check on the guy. If they had went straight to the guy to check up on him, it would have been a whole different story. At least I could understand. "Okay, shot the dog to get to the dude." but that wasn't the case. 

That woman, standing where she doesn't belong makes me cringe on top of that. I hate people that always want to get a closer look and interfere with police work or ems. Gaffers, can't stand them. She's the one that triggered it in the first place.


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## sparra

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If cops don't have training they are not allowed to touch the person. It is a liability.


I'm not talking about the cops I am talking about the general public....you don;t have to touch someone just talking to them is better than leaving him alone on the ground listening to his dog yelping and the people screaming.....geeze.....


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## x0emiroxy0x

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, that woman was the trigger. Why was she standing there in the first place? Sensation, that's the only reason. Gaffing, getting a closer look at the poor guy that's passed out and nobody gives a **** about!


She shouldn't have been doing that.....but still she doesn't deserve to be attacked by the dog. People always blame the person...

Yeah I get annoyed when people pet Rocky at petsmart without asking...but he has NO right to attack them and should not be in public if he would. He does the correct thing and moves away or slinks so their hand barely touches him. Rarely does someone sneak a pet in on my watch without my approval though.


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## Mrs.K

x0emiroxy0x said:


> You have every right to wonder this...and thanks for asking it in a nice way rather than berating police officers.


Sorry, but that the cops didn't check on the guy after they shot the dog speaks volumes.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Mrs.K said:


> Yep! Which makes the entire ordeal so darn pointless... they might as well have given that dog space and wait for AC to arrive to let them do their job since the cops didn't even bother to check on the guy. If they had went straight to the guy to check up on him, it would have been a whole different story. At least I could understand. "Okay, shot the dog to get to the dude." but that wasn't the case.
> 
> That woman, standing where she doesn't belong makes me cringe on top of that. I hate people that always want to get a closer look and interfere with police work or ems. Gaffers, can't stand them. She's the one that triggered it in the first place.



It is the police responsibility to have the way cleared for EMS the second they get there. 

You have every right to question their actions if you don't know why they did something and I thank you for being respectful while asking....this thread is WAY better than the last one that got posted (and deleted by moderators)


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## x0emiroxy0x

As stated previously...they are not allowed to touch the person if they do not have proper training. The person could turn around and sue the police department for incorrectly "helping" them.


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## Mrs.K

x0emiroxy0x said:


> As stated previously...they are not allowed to touch the person if they do not have proper training. The person could turn around and sue the police department for incorrectly "helping" them.


New York has a Good Samaritan Law which provides immunity, when somebody is passed out, it is implied consent. 



> The furnishing of medical assistance in an emergency is a matter of vital concern affecting the public health, safety and welfare. Prehospital emergency medical care, the provision of prompt and effective communication among ambulances and hospitals[,] and safe and effective care and transportation of the sick and injured are essential public health services.
> —N.Y. Public Health L. § 3000.


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## sparra

x0emiroxy0x said:


> As stated previously...they are not allowed to touch the person if they do not have proper training. The person could turn around and sue the police department for incorrectly "helping" them.


Are things so bad in the US that people can't show concern for their fellow man??? Surely not.....


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## Mrs.K

sparra said:


> Are things so bad in the US that people can't show concern for their fellow man??? Surely not.....


In Germany, anyone standing around, including police, could have been sued for NOT helping. You are obliged to help, if you don't it is an offense according to paragraph 323c of the Strafgesetzbuch. You have a "duty to assist" and if you don't it's a "neglect to provide assistance". It is called "Unterlassene Hilfeleistung". 

It looks like the guy was passed out from the seizure, which means that in a case of a passed out person, implied consent is given and you are protected under the Good Samaritan Law in NY. Again, different culture. Makes me sick to see that many people and not a single person kneed down to him after the dog was shot.


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## Alyalanna

sparra said:


> Are things so bad in the US that people can't show concern for their fellow man??? Surely not.....


Too many people are sue happy. There was actually an episode of Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman that had Superman getting sued by someone he saved from imminent death. Although "Good Samaritan" laws are becoming more popular there are a bunch of loop holes to it. For instance, if someone is injured further because the "good samaritan" pulled a person from a car wreck when there wasn't imminent danger, ie fire, other traffic, what-have-you, then, in some areas, they could still be sued. Makes it so people don't want to take the risk.


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## Dainerra

Mrs.K said:


> New York has a Good Samaritan Law which provides immunity, when somebody is passed out, it is implied consent.


Unless New York is different than other states, the Good Samaritan Law does NOT cover paramedics or police officers. Even if it did, dept policy generally prevents doing anything unless there is threat of imminent death, so the guy would have lost his job.

THIS is why I hate people who are excited that their dog is "protective" when they are sick. Especially people with Service Dogs. What happens if the paramedics need to get to you? They aren't going to call AC and wait for them to show up. The cops will shoot your dog. End of story.

As others have said, the cops are required to secure the scene. That means removing anything that is a threat or potential threat. The dog was being aggressive to anyone approaching. The paramedics won't even approach the area (let alone get out of the car) until the danger is handled.

My only complaint is that they didn't put the dog out of it's misery. But, again, that would probably have been against policy. Even though it was still alive, the dog was no longer a threat. A second shot wouldn't have been "warranted" because there IS a risk to others if there was a ricochet. Sad but true.

To me, it means that if you know that your dog gets protective if you are ill or injured, you had darn well better train your dog to be accepting of police/medical personnel.


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## Liesje

As someone who is married to a man that is 6'4" 250lb, strong as heck, and epileptic, if I walked in on my DH having a seizure I would stay back too, lol. He's nearly knocked my head off before! Now someone that is also strung out on something, that's even worse. If the person was not in some respiratory distress (which cannot be seen by us on this video) then I wouldn't get close without a really good reason and let the medics do their job.


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## Kaiser2012

its private?


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## abakerrr

Offering some real world perspective. On this call, police would secure the scene and NOT touch the patient; fire would arrive, apply oxygen via NRB (mask), and NOT touch the patient; and EMS would arrive to get some IV access, put him on the monitor, possibly hit him with drugs if he was still actively seizing, and transport to a local hospital. Let's not criticize the police for doing their job per NYS protocol. Everybody has their own job to do within the system... Would you expect a medic to run into a burning building or a firefighter to take down a barricaded gunman? 

Without addressing the more ridiculous comments, as a medic, I expect when I arrive on scene with police and fire to not be bit by some rogue dog. I'm there to do MY job, not play dog warden or not stand around until the dog is picked up by an ACO. I don't think the officers wanted to shoot the dog because if that was the case, it would have been dead upon their arrival. As soon as the dog charges aggressively though, that's the end. You can't have an animal like that on the scene of a major medical emergency. It's obviously not an ideal outcome for the situation and I know the people on these boards are passionate about animals, myself included, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if in that situation. At the end of the day, people come first.


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## x0emiroxy0x

abakerrr said:


> Offering some real world perspective. On this call, police would secure the scene and NOT touch the patient; fire would arrive, apply oxygen via NRB (mask), and NOT touch the patient; and EMS would arrive to get some IV access, put him on the monitor, possibly hit him with drugs if he was still actively seizing, and transport to a local hospital. Let's not criticize the police for doing their job per NYS protocol. Everybody has their own job to do within the system... Would you expect a medic to run into a burning building or a firefighter to take down a barricaded gunman?
> 
> Without addressing the more ridiculous comments, as a medic, I expect when I arrive on scene with police and fire to not be bit by some rogue dog. I'm there to do MY job, not play dog warden or not stand around until the dog is picked up by an ACO. I don't think the officers wanted to shoot the dog because if that was the case, it would have been dead upon their arrival. As soon as the dog charges aggressively though, that's the end. You can't have an animal like that on the scene of a major medical emergency. It's obviously not an ideal outcome for the situation and I know the people on these boards are passionate about animals, myself included, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if in that situation. At the end of the day, people come first.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Thank you for providing us with the perspective of a medic. I was not 100% sure of their rules, just of the police officer ones.


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## Mrs.K

It is a different world over here...


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## Gharrissc

I couldn't watch the video,but hopefully the dog and his owner are ok!


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## msvette2u

> Without addressing the more ridiculous comments, as a medic,* I expect when I arrive on scene with police and fire to not be bit by some rogue dog. *I'm there to do MY job, not play dog warden or not stand around until the dog is picked up by an ACO. I don't think the officers wanted to shoot the dog because if that was the case, it would have been dead upon their arrival. As soon as the dog charges aggressively though, that's the end. You can't have an animal like that on the scene of a major medical emergency. It's obviously not an ideal outcome for the situation and I know the people on these boards are passionate about animals, myself included, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if in that situation*. At the end of the day, people come first.*


Exactly!! I'm married to a medic - you can darn well bet there's going to be some noise if officers - who have guns - let my husband be bitten (or stabbed or shot or otherwise attacked or maimed) in the course of his job! 
Medics do not have to enter unsafe scenes. They have to keep themselves safe so they can help the guy on the ground. That's what the cops are there for.


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## Gharrissc

Just watched the video and I think any or most dogs would try to protect their owner if something like this happened. The cops could have gone about it in a different way IMO. A lot of people's dogs from this forum may have acted in the same way if something happened to us. The fact that the dog was a Pitbull was probably another issue,but let's not get into that.

BTW I didn't see any hesitation at all when they pulled that gun out on that dog. I'm all for the medics being able to do their job,but these police officers need to learn how to use other tools such as a tazer instead of pulling a gun out on an animal all of the time. The dog was just protecting her distressed owner.


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## Liesje

I would hope that when an officer draws his or her gun there is no hesitation!


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## Anthony8858

Here's the story from a witness:

_A man who witnessed the police shooting of a dog in the East Village yesterday says that the pit bull mix named Star first snapped at a woman before turning on police. "[The police] were telling people standing around to get back, but a lady was standing behind the passed out-guy got a little too close, so the dog nips at her. Johnny Rodriguez, who was visiting the New York Eye and Ear Infirmary nearby, said he and three other people alerted nearby police officers that the owner of the dog was in danger of being hit by traffic. "He was having a seizure, I saw him lying down on the ground and his head was twitching and shaking." The two officers who responded called for backup ("I guess they didn't have the training or something") and the dog began growling as officers approached the man.

"I told one of the cops, 'Hey, that dog is growling, be careful,' because they were getting pretty close," Rodriguez says. "I used to have a pit bull and that's just how they are, they protect their owners." Rodriguez thought that one woman had placed herself too closely behind the man as she was observing what was happening. "It grabbed her pants, but it didn't bite her, then the dog starts running at the cop."

Contrary to previous reports, Rodriguez, who lives in Bay Ridge, says that police used mace only after the dog was shot. "If they used it, I didn't see it, I was there the whole time though." You can see the officer on the right discharge his mace shortly after the dog is shot. Rodriguez says officers took him to the 9th Precinct where they uploaded his video "for evidence." Rodriguez adds that he did not witness police kick the man or use physical force to attempt to rouse him.

"It's a tragedy, but I may have done the same thing that the cop did. If you got a pit bull coming at you, I don't know if you stand there and get bit or use your gun," Rodriguez says. "The dog was protecting the owner, that's what it does."

Star is still alive and remains in the care of the Animal Care & Control facility on East 110th Street. Attempts to locate Star's owner have been unsuccessful so far. The Local East Village spoke to friends of the dog's owner, who police identify as Lech Stankiewicz, and they said that Star has a history of being overprotective of Stankiewicz.

"Most of us figured out that when he's passed out, whether he's overdosing or not, leave him alone," the friend, Brandon Verna, said. "If he's going to die, call an ambulance and have them deal with it because no one wants to get bitten."_


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## Gharrissc

What I was referring to was some of the comments about how the officer may not have wanted to shoot the dog. He went for the gun first instead of using something else on his belt.


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## DFrost

abakerrr said:


> Offering some real world perspective. On this call, police would secure the scene and NOT touch the patient; fire would arrive, apply oxygen via NRB (mask), and NOT touch the patient; and EMS would arrive to get some IV access, put him on the monitor, possibly hit him with drugs if he was still actively seizing, and transport to a local hospital. Let's not criticize the police for doing their job per NYS protocol. Everybody has their own job to do within the system... Would you expect a medic to run into a burning building or a firefighter to take down a barricaded gunman?
> 
> Without addressing the more ridiculous comments, as a medic, I expect when I arrive on scene with police and fire to not be bit by some rogue dog. I'm there to do MY job, not play dog warden or not stand around until the dog is picked up by an ACO. I don't think the officers wanted to shoot the dog because if that was the case, it would have been dead upon their arrival. As soon as the dog charges aggressively though, that's the end. You can't have an animal like that on the scene of a major medical emergency. It's obviously not an ideal outcome for the situation and I know the people on these boards are passionate about animals, myself included, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if in that situation. At the end of the day, people come first.


Trashing the actions of a police officer is often times a subtle hobby for some folks. They have no idea of the training and responsibility that an officer has by virtue of his position. Had the person died because the officer didn't take any effective action against the dog, he would have been held liable and certainly sued civily if nothing else. While I am accustomed to the knee jerk reactions of those that have never faced decisions where life and limb can be immediately impacted, it is amusing to watch their answers. 

Your answer sounds like one that has been part of situations where those decisions need made. Good for you.

DFrost


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## mssandslinger

i cant even watch it reading all the posts...


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## msvette2u

Gharrissc said:


> What I was referring to was some of the comments about how the officer may not have wanted to shoot the dog. He went for the gun first instead of using something else on his belt.


And your point is...?
Did you see my post about pepper spray and tasers???


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## DharmasMom

Where on earth do you people live that the police have no first aid or CPR training?? I did EMS in my county for almost 20 years, was once an ALS provider. The police in my county have ALL been certified in basic first aid and CPR and even now carry AEDs in their cars. 

Heck, the worst shooting I worked, a triple shooting, double homicide- by the time we arrived the police were doing CPR on one of the victims. Granted, they didn't like it. The second I walked up to them they both scrambled like their butts were on fire BUT the DID it. 

Police are public servants and in most places they can and will get to a scene faster than EMS. ESPECIALLY in rural places where an EMS system is likely to be all volunteer and someone may have to wait for the providers to get out of bed and go to the station and pick up an ambulance. Knowing the basics on how to help someone is NOT unreasonable. ESP after you have secured the scene.

If they made the decision to shoot the dog, they shoot have made the decision to finish it. Leaving it writhing in pain and screaming on the sidewalk is pretty atrocious, IMO.


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## Gharrissc

I didn't read through all of the posts. My point is that it could have been handled in a different way which is what I said before. You claim that most people want to argue up here,but you feel that you can be rude in your posts to other people. What's your point in doing that?


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## Dainerra

Dharma, here the cops are trained in CPR but they are ONLY allowed to use it in a case of obvious life/death.


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## Kaiser2012

I haven't read through everyone's posts...however, as someone who is in law enforcement, it is my opinion that the officer had NO other option than to shoot the dog. And yes, I am a HUGE dog lover (my coworkers nicknamed me the "animal whisperer"). Based on what I saw in the first few moments of the video, choosing to shoot to stop the threat was the only way to react. It was how I would react. Pepper spray very oftentimes will blow back onto the officer (not all of us are able to ignore its effects), and not all animals (even some people) will react to it enough for it to be considered a deterrent. As far as the use of a taser goes, while it is a non-lethal means of stopping a threat, the officer had a VERY short period of time to react. In those moments, he had to process the fact that the dog was charging him AND choose a method in which to respond. We are trained to shoot to stop a threat, not to disable. Generally that means "shooting to kill". The dog was processed as a threat, so to the officer, that meant drawing his weapon. I am happy to hear that the dog survived though. I love pits.

Now, not knowing the backstory...sure...we can all monday morning quarterback and ask a million questions...but the fact of the matter is...given what I SEE...I would agree with the officer's response. 

What if the dog disabled one of the officers? What if the man having the seizure was on drugs and attacked the second officer once he recovered? Or one of the bystanders? What if the dog attacked and injured one of the bystanders after the officer choose to try to pepper spray it? Or what if he missed with the taser? There are a million questions we could ask. He*l, what if he missed with his gun? Whats the point of asking and speculating when what happened is what happened? The officer will have to explain his actions, and will either be reprimanded in some way, or not. 

As far as allowing the dog to suffer...I'm not so sure I agree with that. On the other hand, maybe there was a reason (ie, SPCA was on the way?)

Again I apologize if any of this has already been discussed. Just my .02


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## selzer

The video says private now, and I can't watch it. 

I suppose it is just as well.

I know if someone is having a seizure, the thing for me to do is to stay back and try to make sure there is nothing that I can many move out of the way, or make the area safe in some way, like stop traffic so the guy does not get hit. 

If I was out walking my dog, and I had a seizure, it is possible for my dog to act any way. If the dog charged at someone, and got shot, it would be tragic, but I guess the way I look at it, is if the dog ran in front of a car while I was having a seizure and got run over, it would be tragic too. 

I find it interesting that everyone seems to believe that cops are always dead set on shooting dogs. Like they get out of bed in the morning thinking, "I'm going to shoot me some dog meat today." I would wager that an awful lot of cops own dogs, and care for them and love their dogs, and they understand that other people love their dogs too. I am sure there is a bad apple or two out there that is too ready to fire on dogs, but I think departments generally purge themselves of those idiots as soon as it becomes apparent.


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## Konotashi

Watching the video several times, I don't feel that the officers were in the wrong shooting the dog. The dog charged at them, and it's not safe for an officer (or anyone else) to assume a charging dog is going to just give a 'warning bite.'
I DO feel that they were wrong shooting it, then leaving it screaming. At least end its pain. I think I read that the dog is alive right now? That's good - but honestly, the dog shouldn't have had to suffer while it was lying there, writhing in pain.


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## TrickyShepherd

With all this talk of "you don't understand" Or people "bashing police".... I would just like to say, that's not 100% true. Many would/do understand, but remember, that most of the public are not trained in that field, may have never been in that situation, AND most of the public are also not callousedto witnessing that. (Reminds me of when I was watching Dr. G yesterday... she was using the terms "it" "that" and everything else that would be used to describe an item... not a human. She didn't show any concern or emotions. She can't, it's her career... she's a professional. I thought to myself... if that was me... I would be an emotional wreck as well as head in the toilet. I've never been around that, I'm not calloused to it.)

I, for one, do understand. I have military and LEO in my family and close friends. I used to date an LEO. I have the utmost respect for their jobs and could never do it myself. I have no hatred for police and never have. I live in a place where they are respected and welcomed in the area. I love knowing they are around... just wish we had more and in certain areas more often. Our town is a very nice place and very safe... one of the best here in Central FL. I thank our local police for that.

However, my problem with this is the dog was left to thrash around in pain. Either use a taser and stun the dog.... or put the dog out of it's misery. I understand he had to do something... he was being charged, and no it's NOT worth getting bitten over. But, it's also inhumane to just let the dog struggle for it's life screaming and tossing all over the street while bleeding to death. It's an animal protecting it's ill owner.... the dog doesn't know or care if it's drugs, health condition, or a mixture of both. He just knows the owner is down and something is wrong. I'm sure my dogs may act the same way if that was my SO or I. From the outside looking in, there was other ways to handle that situation.


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## msvette2u

Gharrissc said:


> I didn't read through all of the posts. My point is that *it could have been handled in a different way *which is what I said before. You claim that most people want to argue up here,but you feel that you can be rude in your posts to other people. What's your point in doing that?


But you're not in law enforcement. Nobody else here is, either.
You don't really know in what situations "less lethal" is justified.

If the cops had tasered the dog he or she would have been writhing around in pain (if both prongs made it in and didn't hit someone in the crowd) just like it is now.
If they sprayed the dog and got some in their own face (wind gust, etc.) they can disable themselves, risking their own lives. If they'd sprayed a bystander, they could send someone into an asthma attack - or worse, kill them.
So yeah.
By saying "Well, they didn't reach for anything else, just their guns", 1) is assuming they do carry pepper spray or tasers, and 2) that conditions were optimal to use either.

It's like folks watching animal planet and thinking the moment a critter is darted, it goes right down. That's because they cut out the footage out of 15 minutes of the critter running away after it was darted, and staggering all over the place, before it falls. 

I'm just saying - folks can easily armchair quarterback now, but unless you wear a uniform, don't try to second guess cops actions based on an inflammatory youtube vid.

*tasered dogs aren't "stunned". They usually jerk around, seize up and make many loud vocal emissions. 





How is this less distressing? Also a tasered dog may actually charge/bite the nearest thing thinking that thing did the injury - if a person's there, they may be bitten.


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## Kaiser2012

msvette2u said:


> But you're not in law enforcement. Nobody else here is, either.
> You don't really know in what situations "less lethal" is justified.
> 
> If the cops had tasered the dog he or she would have been writhing around in pain (if both prongs made it in and didn't hit someone in the crowd) just like it is now.
> If they sprayed the dog and got some in their own face (wind gust, etc.) they can disable themselves, risking their own lives. If they'd sprayed a bystander, they could send someone into an asthma attack - or worse, kill them.
> So yeah.
> By saying "Well, they didn't reach for anything else, just their guns", 1) is assuming they do carry pepper spray or tasers, and 2) that conditions were optimal to use either.
> 
> It's like folks watching animal planet and thinking the moment a critter is darted, it goes right down. That's because they cut out the footage out of 15 minutes of the critter running away after it was darted, and staggering all over the place, before it falls.
> 
> I'm just saying - folks can easily armchair quarterback now, but unless you wear a uniform, don't try to second guess cops actions based on an inflammatory youtube vid.


check my above post


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## selzer

I don't know what effect pepper spray will have on a guy having a seizure. I know having asthma, that would be the last thing I would want in the air if I was seizing. 

My guess would be that the police would be there to secure the scene, and make sure EMTs were on the way, and make sure they could get EMTs through to the guy. They may have first aid and CPR training, but the guy wasn't bleeding and he was breathing, and you can't perform CPR on someone unless they don't have a pulse and are not breathing. So I am just not sure what the cops should have done other than move the crowd back, keep the traffic from hitting the guy, and keep everyone safe from the dog. I am sorry that the dog got shot.


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## DharmasMom

Dainerra said:


> Dharma, here the cops are trained in CPR but they are ONLY allowed to use it in a case of obvious life/death.



 That is really the only time CPR is needed. I am not trying to be a jerk, just funny the way you worded your post. 

I like that the cops have CPR, but what if someone has had an accident and cut an artery and is bleeding out? They will stand around until the person codes from blood loss and THEN start CPR? I don't know how the EMS system is in your county but I know in VA, we have some seriously rural counties where 20-25 min is standard waiting time for an ambulance. If you are lucky. 

My argument is, that many, many times the police are going to be the first ones there. They should be able to do the basics. CPR, hold pressure/ stop bleeding, maintain an airway, etc. It could make a difference between life and death.


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## msvette2u

Kaiser2012 said:


> check my above post


Check my post 4 or 5 pages back 

And I was responding to gharr.


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## msvette2u

selzer said:


> I don't know what effect pepper spray will have on a guy having a seizure. I know having asthma, that would be the last thing I would want in the air if I was seizing.
> 
> My guess would be that the police would be there to secure the scene, and make sure EMTs were on the way, and make sure they could get EMTs through to the guy. They may have first aid and CPR training, but the guy wasn't bleeding and he was breathing, and you can't perform CPR on someone unless they don't have a pulse and are not breathing. So I am just not sure what the cops should have done other than move the crowd back, keep the traffic from hitting the guy, and keep everyone safe from the dog. I am sorry that the dog got shot.


:thumbup:

I wonder why nobody made a makeshift leash to get the dog on a leash? I mean public.
Everyone was angry they shot the dog but nobody else even tried to get the dog subdued in any way, shape or form. 
And yes, I realize - that's not their job, to do that.
But it is the cops job to subdue the dog - in any way possible.


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## Anthony8858

To be honest, my first thought was that this was a staged movie scene. The reaction by the PO's AFTER the shot was concerning. The dog was obviously NOT going to cause any further harm, yet both PO's kept their guns drawn, and didn't even acknowledge the person in the street.
What got me was the fact that the PO was approaching the victim, when the dog charged. Yet, as soon as he disabled the dog, he didn't tend to the victim. Almost as if he forgot he was going to the victim on the floor.

I watched the video numerous times, and IMO, the PO acted in a responsible manner. He really had no other choice.
I'll say this much.... I've been into martial arts, and self defense for many years. I can disarm, disable, and restrain just about anyone.
A charging PB is not one of them, and would scare the cr*p out of me.

The video is still available on Youtube. Do a search if you really want to see it.


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## selzer

Ok, I saw a quick version. I don't think the cops had much choice. I think it was sad. Did you hear the people yelling and screaming at the cops? Could you imagine what would have happened if the cops would have bent over the dog, put the muzzle on the scull and put the dog out of its pain?

The dog is alive. I hope it recovers. I don't blame the officers. I think it is really sad that it happened. I wonder if the guy was homeless, was that his stuff over by him? I live in a rural community where we do not see the homelessness and violence or even the ravishes of drug addiction/overdose, gang warfare like inner city people see it. I mean we hear about it, but it does not confront us walking down the street. I am not sure if that makes any difference really, but I am just not sure what the protocol would be to deal with someone seizing in the street, but they might deal with that sort of thing all the time.


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## x0emiroxy0x

My boyfriend is in the academy right now....four months of training 8-5 Monday through Friday. Get below a 75 on a single test, you are out. Fail single physical portion, you are out. He has three different classes every day.

They train them for as many situations as possible during the 855 + hours they spend in class during those four months.

In rural places, the cops may be trained as EMS. But in a city, where the EMS and fire department are 5 minutes away, the cops learn how to be *cops* and the basic EMS skills...but there just isn't enough time, even with 855 hours of training to learn the EMS job as well.

Everyone always complains about police officers but never hesitates to call them when they need help.......

By some people's POV, I would be a bad person because I stabbed a pitbull with my car key in the eye when it charged at Rocky barking and snarling not one week after Rocky had to have stitches from its last attack. I guess I should have kindly asked the owner to get their dog while my own had its throat ripped out....because I wasn't *100% *sure that it would kill Rocky.


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## x0emiroxy0x

selzer said:


> Ok, I saw a quick version. I don't think the cops had much choice. I think it was sad. Did you hear the people yelling and screaming at the cops? Could you imagine what would have happened if the cops would have bent over the dog, put the muzzle on the scull and put the dog out of its pain?



If the cops had shot it again, this thread would be about police officer cruelty and shooting a dog twice that could have survived the first shot....


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## abakerrr

I'll say this again. It is generally NOT a police officers job to check the medical status of a person seizing. It is their job to secure the scene. 

If this person was in cardiac arrest, I would guess there is a good possibility that _someone_ would have begun CPR. I like to think that your only as good as the tools you have with most medical emergencies though, cardiac arrest aside. As far as someone seizing, without the appropriate tools, there's not much you can do but let them come out of it on their own. They can't hear you, they can't speak to you, they aren't cognitively there, and they can become combative. Its in everybody's best interest to leave them alone, call EMS, and make sure there isn't anything around that they can injure themselves on.

David - I feel very fortunate to have experienced life while working in emergency services and think that the perspective gained while in this field of work is very exclusive. I also often disagree with the general attitude towards our line of work from the outside perspective, but I also understand that I can't expect most people to understand where i'm coming from when they just haven't been there' or done that'. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about. Either way, I find great personal satisfaction in knowing that _I_ did the job to the best of my training and abilities, regardless of what people on the outside, looking-in, think.


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## PatchonGSD

I guess my problem with this whole ordeal is if the police officer had NO INTENTIONS of helping the man on the ground, then why did he even try to approach the dog and the man? Seems to me like he intentionally goaded the dog. If the dog was such a safety concern at that moment and they couldn't wait until ACC got there, why didnt they just shoot the dog when he charged the bystander on camera? (who had no business being so close in the first place) IMO, this was handled poorly by the police- and as a PP mentioned, their reaction to the dog AFTER they shot him is just as disturbing.


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## selzer

This is just something that I will give the cop the benefit of the doubt on. 

I do not want to armchair quarterback this scenario. Oh, I have no problem with going over the scene afterwards with the officers and discussing what they might have done differently, like after after shooting the dog, taking out the woman that is doing all the screaming -- just kidding. But not as a disciplinary deal, just as a training deal. 

I don't know anything about police procedure, but if there is a kinder/gentler approach to dealing with wigged out pit bulls, that training might provide a safe alternative to shooting the dog, than yay, I am all for it.

Yes, any of our dogs might have done similar or worse in the situation. 

The idea of someone putting together a make-shift leash and leashing the dog, well, if my dog goes up to you and takes a chunk out of you while I am unable to control him due to having a seizure, I am probably responsible for that bite. But if you try to catch my dog while I am out of commission and you get bit, then I would say, you are on your own. Most people just don't like the idea of getting bit. And this scenario with the owner down, is one that just might be a good example of a situation where a dog might not make a great decision.

I wouldn't make up a leash and try to catch the dog. And I just a few months ago, did catch and leash a stray pit bull.


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## Gharrissc

Well that would be better than leaving the dog in the street flopping around since they did shoot her. If the police felt like they were justified,then just finish the job. Don't do it half way. 

OTOH I am glad that she will be ok. 



x0emiroxy0x said:


> If the cops had shot it again, this thread would be about police officer cruelty and shooting a dog twice that could have survived the first shot....


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## selzer

PatchonGSD said:


> I guess my problem with this whole ordeal is if the police officer had NO INTENTIONS of helping the man on the ground, then why did he even try to approach the dog and the man? Seems to me like he intentionally goaded the dog. If the dog was such a safety concern at that moment and they couldn't wait until ACC got there, why didnt they just shoot the dog when he charged the bystander on camera? (who had no business being so close in the first place) IMO, this was handled poorly by the police- and as a PP mentioned, their reaction to the dog AFTER they shot him is just as disturbing.


Who knows when paramedics will arrive with relation to when AC will arrive. The officer might have needed to see if the man could be approached because the paramedics would have to approach him. I am sorry the dog was out of control. I even understand that it is probably natural for the dog to be out of control. But I do not think that we should wait around while a guy is seizing for AC to get there to secure the dog before we make ready for paramedics to do their job.

This was a lose-lose situation for the cops. If they waited around and this dog bit someone else, it would be their fault. If they did not get the dog away from the guy so that the paramedics could get in there, it would be their fault. Let's just all hate them and yell at them and spit on them, because someone's dog was injured and the responsible party was a cop.


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## msvette2u

> This was a lose-lose situation for the cops. If they waited around and this dog bit someone else, it would be their fault. If they did not get the dog away from the guy so that the paramedics could get in there, it would be their fault. Let's just all hate them and yell at them and spit on them, because someone's dog was injured and the responsible party was a cop.


That really sums it all up.


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## Dainerra

DharmasMom said:


> That is really the only time CPR is needed. I am not trying to be a jerk, just funny the way you worded your post.
> 
> I like that the cops have CPR, but what if someone has had an accident and cut an artery and is bleeding out? They will stand around until the person codes from blood loss and THEN start CPR? I don't know how the EMS system is in your county but I know in VA, we have some seriously rural counties where 20-25 min is standard waiting time for an ambulance. If you are lucky.
> 
> My argument is, that many, many times the police are going to be the first ones there. They should be able to do the basics. CPR, hold pressure/ stop bleeding, maintain an airway, etc. It could make a difference between life and death.


If the guy is in danger of bleeding out, then they have the training to try to stop the bleeding. Or at least to be walked through it. Otherwise, unless it's obvious that someone is going to die they really aren't supposed to touch them. For the most part, they need to have permission to even do that.

Yeah, the way I worded it sounds weird. It made sense in my head, doesn't that count?  Here, we have places that are a good 45 minute drive from the Sheriff's office. So unless the cops happened to be the ones to find you, the ambulance will likely get there first. Of course, in a case like the video, the EMTs are going to be sit there and watch you bleed out because they aren't allowed to get out if there is a dangerous situation.


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## Gharrissc

Just watched the video and you're right it's pretty much the same reaction as the dog being shot. I've never seen an animal being tasered,but it certainly wouldn't have been any 'cleaner looking' if that makes sense at all. 




msvette2u said:


> *tasered dogs aren't "stunned". They usually jerk around, seize up and make many loud vocal emissions.
> Dog Tasered- YouTube
> 
> How is this less distressing? Also a tasered dog may actually charge/bite the nearest thing thinking that thing did the injury - if a person's there, they may be bitten.


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## Mrs.K

DharmasMom said:


> That is really the only time CPR is needed. I am not trying to be a jerk, just funny the way you worded your post.
> 
> I like that the cops have CPR, but what if someone has had an accident and cut an artery and is bleeding out? They will stand around until the person codes from blood loss and THEN start CPR? I don't know how the EMS system is in your county but I know in VA, we have some seriously rural counties where 20-25 min is standard waiting time for an ambulance. If you are lucky.
> 
> My argument is, that many, many times the police are going to be the first ones there. They should be able to do the basics. CPR, hold pressure/ stop bleeding, maintain an airway, etc. It could make a difference between life and death.


There is a place in my county of my Rescue Squad where it takes 45 to get there... if there is no Volunteer on the clock than that place has a problem. If anyone has a heart attack or is involved in an accident and they can't get volunteers out than our squad is the one that goes out. You'll most likely be dead by the time the ambulance gets there. 

But I'm just starting out, it's all ahead of me and maybe one day I will understand how stupid and naive I was that situations like that could have been handled differently. 

My main issue with the whole situation is that they shot the dog, didn't finish the job and of top of that didn't even check if the guy was still breathing at all. Nobody cared for the guy on the Sidewalk and the dog was left there in agony.


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## Dainerra

I've met some LEOs who have been shot. In order of least to most painful they ranked

-shot (shoulder)
-tased
-pepper sprayed.

yes, they would rather be shot (non-lethal) than pepper sprayed.


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## Kaiser2012

yup...I'd rather be shot (non-lethal) than pepper sprayed/oc gassed. But I'm more sensitive to those. But don't you dare point a taser at me, lol...that might get you shot!


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## Dainerra

Mrs.K said:


> My main issue with the whole situation is that they shot the dog, didn't finish the job and of top of that didn't even check if the guy was still breathing at all. Nobody cared for the guy on the Sidewalk and the dog was left there in agony.


it's all a matter of rules, sadly. When the first shot was fired, the dog was an active threat to the officers/paramedics/bystanders. The chances of someone getting bitten by the dog were greater than the chance of a bad shot injuring a bystander. Unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), they didn't kill the dog with one shot. However, it was no longer an active danger to anyone on the scene so it would have been against the law to shoot it. Since AC was on the way, the dog was left for them as the rules require. Definitely not a perfect system, but it's the one we've got.

In many areas, it is actually illegal to shoot a deer that has been hit by a car, for example. If the police are on the scene, they have to call AC or an emergency vet to get special permission to put the animal out of its misery.


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## msvette2u

Gharrissc said:


> Just watched the video and you're right it's pretty much the same reaction as the dog being shot. I've never seen an animal being tasered,but it certainly wouldn't have been any 'cleaner looking' if that makes sense at all.


See...I am an LEO of sorts, WA Animal control officer. I worked with Sheriff and local police for 3yrs, my boss being the Chief of police.
Laid off, due to budget cuts - across the nation, Animal control is being downsized.
Anyway - the methods you probably were thinking about are only "less lethal", not non-lethal.
And can be more injurious/harmful, and even more deadly.

I tend to agree they should have killed the dog, but having been on scene with these type situations, I believe they felt the dog was going to pass away imminently. IMO, not having been there, I think that was in their minds.
Like..."the dog will die - we shot it". Um. Yeah...5 min. later..."The dog is dying now". "The dog is going to die. Soon. It WILL happen" 
Then..."WHY Isn't that dog dead yet...!?"

Many cops have dogs of their own. They do not enjoy shooting or killing them. I heard this over and over.
If they do enjoy it, they are in the wrong line of business.


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## DharmasMom

x0emiroxy0x said:


> My boyfriend is in the academy right now....four months of training 8-5 Monday through Friday. Get below a 75 on a single test, you are out. Fail single physical portion, you are out. He has three different classes every day.
> 
> They train them for as many situations as possible during the 855 + hours they spend in class during those four months.
> 
> In rural places, the cops may be trained as EMS. But in a city, where the EMS and fire department are 5 minutes away, the cops learn how to be *cops* and the basic EMS skills...but there just isn't enough time, even with 855 hours of training to learn the EMS job as well.
> 
> Everyone always complains about police officers but never hesitates to call them when they need help.......
> 
> By some people's POV, I would be a bad person because I stabbed a pitbull with my car key in the eye when it charged at Rocky barking and snarling not one week after Rocky had to have stitches from its last attack. I guess I should have kindly asked the owner to get their dog while my own had its throat ripped out....because I wasn't *100% *sure that it would kill Rocky.


I have the utmost respect for police officers. My father was one for 30+ years. I am friends with cops, I have dated cops. BUT I have also hold them to a pretty high standard EXACTLY like I do EMS providers, firefighters, doctors, nurses and anyone else entrusted with the lives of others. Implying that there is not "enough" time to learn the basics does not cut it. CPR is an 8 hour class, basic first aid is 4 hours. Even in a large metropolitan area there are risks for mass causality incidents where you will STILL be waiting for back up EMS and fire units to arrive. Using the excuse "I don't know" or "I wasn't trained" while someone in need dies just is not acceptable, IMO.



abakerrr said:


> I'll say this again. It is generally NOT a police officers job to check the medical status of a person seizing. It is their job to secure the scene.
> 
> If this person was in cardiac arrest, I would guess there is a good possibility that _someone_ would have begun CPR. I like to think that your only as good as the tools you have with most medical emergencies though, cardiac arrest aside. As far as someone seizing, without the appropriate tools, there's not much you can do but let them come out of it on their own. They can't hear you, they can't speak to you, they aren't cognitively there, and they can become combative. Its in everybody's best interest to leave them alone, call EMS, and make sure there isn't anything around that they can injure themselves on.
> 
> David - I feel very fortunate to have experienced life while working in emergency services and think that the perspective gained while in this field of work is very exclusive. I also often disagree with the general attitude towards our line of work from the outside perspective, but I also understand that I can't expect most people to understand where i'm coming from when they just haven't been there' or done that'. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about. Either way, I find great personal satisfaction in knowing that _I_ did the job to the best of my training and abilities, regardless of what people on the outside, looking-in, think.



You are right. Without IVs and meds there isn't much you can do for someone who is actively seizing. However, you CAN monitor them closely to make sure they 1) don't vomit and 2) don't quit breathing. Both are common actions for people who seize. If they vomit they need to be placed on their side. 

You are talking to someone who has "been there, done that" as you say. From the streets to the ER. BLS to ALS and back again. For a public servant to just stand around while someone seizes, well, that is pretty unacceptable. 

I just posted in the thread about if you would help somebody about helping a junkie who OD'd in the Walmart bathroom and wasn't breathing. I had NO equipment. Nothing. Not even a pocket mask. I also had NO obligation to stop (unlike police who are called). I still did what I had to do. I held his airway open and continued to stimulate him to get him to breathe just enough to keep him alive until EMS arrived. What if I had not been there? What if a cop had gotten there a mere minute after a call to 911 had gone through? Should he have just stood around and "secured the scene" while EMS took another 5-6 minutes arrive? Or should he have known to place the guy on his back and open his airway? 5-6 minutes is the difference between life and death or at the very least the start of brain damage for someone who is not getting oxygen to the brain.


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## Kaiser2012

LEOs are first responders, and respond as such. That includes both securing the scene and providing first aid care when necessary.


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## selzer

Dainerra said:


> it's all a matter of rules, sadly. When the first shot was fired, the dog was an active threat to the officers/paramedics/bystanders. The chances of someone getting bitten by the dog were greater than the chance of a bad shot injuring a bystander. Unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), they didn't kill the dog with one shot. However, it was no longer an active danger to anyone on the scene so it would have been against the law to shoot it. Since AC was on the way, the dog was left for them as the rules require. Definitely not a perfect system, but it's the one we've got.
> 
> In many areas, it is actually illegal to shoot a deer that has been hit by a car, for example. If the police are on the scene, they have to call AC or an emergency vet to get special permission to put the animal out of its misery.



I think there is a lot of paperwork when an officer fires their gun, and scrutiny. When I hit the big buck, the State Boy went back there and found it. I heard no shot. I asked him if it was dead. He said, "It's dead now." He must have slit its throat and let it bleed out.

When I ran over the dog, no I do not keep a gun in my car, I knew the beagle had had it, and called the sherriff to come out and have someone shoot the dog. They sent out the highway patrol. The dog was still alive, and that really bothered me, that the poor thing was suffering. He found the phone number on the collar, and called the owners. 

While we waited for him to arrive, he called 24 hour animal clinics. He told the owner this, but the owner when he came up on a piece of farm machinery said she has had it, and put her on the tractor wagon, and he puffed away. 

I guess the point is, that just because cops have guns, does not mean they are going to shoot a dog to put it down, to put it out of their misery. Probably not really allowed to do that.


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## DharmasMom

Dainerra said:


> If the guy is in danger of bleeding out, then they have the training to try to stop the bleeding. Or at least to be walked through it. Otherwise, unless it's obvious that someone is going to die they really aren't supposed to touch them. For the most part, they need to have permission to even do that.
> 
> Yeah, the way I worded it sounds weird. It made sense in my head, doesn't that count?  Here, we have places that are a good 45 minute drive from the Sheriff's office. So unless the cops happened to be the ones to find you, the ambulance will likely get there first. Of course, in a case like the video, the EMTs are going to be sit there and watch you bleed out because they aren't allowed to get out if there is a dangerous situation.



They are trained for the basics then and I am good with that. They will intervene before letting someone die and that is all I am asking. 

As for the EMTs not getting out, that is standard protocol anywhere. The scene HAS to be secure. A dead or injured EMS provider is no good to anyone and only complicates the scene tremendously. We used to have to "stage" on many types of calls- meaning police had to clear the scene before we could go in. Of course in cases like Aurora and Columbine, the media and public always go nuts over this. WHY wasn't EMS sent in right away???? WHY did they wait??? But it really makes sense if someone thinks about it for a second.


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## Mrs.K

> I have the utmost respect for police officers. My father was one for 30+ years. I am friends with cops, I have dated cops. BUT I have also hold them to a pretty high standard EXACTLY like I do EMS providers, firefighters, doctors, nurses and anyone else entrusted with the lives of others. Implying that there is not "enough" time to learn the basics does not cut it. CPR is an 8 hour class, basic first aid is 4 hours. Even in a large metropolitan area there are risks for mass causality incidents where you will STILL be waiting for back up EMS and fire units to arrive. Using the excuse "I don't know" or "I wasn't trained" while someone in need dies just is not acceptable, IMO.


THIS!

...and...




> You are right. Without IVs and meds there isn't much you can do for someone who is actively seizing. However, you CAN monitor them closely to make sure they *1) don't vomit and 2) don't quit breathing. Both are common actions for people who seize. If they vomit they need to be placed on their side. *
> 
> You are talking to someone who has "been there, done that" as you say. From the streets to the ER. BLS to ALS and back again. For a public servant to just stand around while someone seizes, well, that is pretty unacceptable.
> 
> I just posted in the thread about if you would help somebody about helping a junkie who OD'd in the Walmart bathroom and wasn't breathing. I had NO equipment. Nothing. Not even a pocket mask. I also had NO obligation to stop (unlike police who are called). I still did what I had to do. I held his airway open and continued to stimulate him to get him to breathe just enough to keep him alive until EMS arrived. What if I had not been there? What if a cop had gotten there a mere minute after a call to 911 had gone through? Should he have just stood around and "secured the scene" while EMS took another 5-6 minutes arrive? Or should he have known to place the guy on his back and open his airway? 5-6 minutes is the difference between life and death or at the very least the start of brain damage for someone who is not getting oxygen to the brain.


Especially that bolded part. That guy on the sidewalk could have stopped breathing and died with a whole bunch of cops and a crowd standing around and watching and nobody would have noticed because nobody even checked on him the entire time that video was running.


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## msvette2u

Maybe it's different here; cops shoot critters all the time here.
In fact I was only called out to put an animal to sleep (with drugs) if the scene was so public as to attract attention.
They had to pay me and it was $24.50 /hr. with a 2hr. minimum if it was even down the road a half mile and I got in my truck, and it took me 10 mins., they paid for 2hrs.
So they took more flak from their supervisor for calling me than for shooting it themselves!

I loved the one where I was called to get a dog out of a dog house, where it had actually holed itself up, due to an injury.
It was a very non-life-threatening injury and I sent the dog to rescue. I though, GOSH those guys are gonna get it from their supervisors! That's how I could tell the newbies to the force. They'd call me out if a dog had a broken toenail!


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> It is a different world over here...


Yeah, but over there, the cops don't have to deal with pit bulls, do they Mrs. K?


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## abakerrr

* However, you CAN monitor them closely to make sure they 1) don't vomit and 2) don't quit breathing. Both are common actions for people who seize. If they vomit they need to be placed on their side.*

I know better than to play the 'what if' game, because sooner or later we'll be talking in circles, but I'll entertain this one. First of all, he wasn't vomiting. If he wasnt vomiting, there would be no need for anyone to rush the scene and flip him on his side. But let's say 'what if' he was vomiting and you rushed over and flipped him over. Your still not going to get the vomit out of his airway that he has already aspirated without a suction unit, but let's say you get the bulk of it out. Congrats, you've maintained whatever is left of his airway. 'What if' when he started to seize, he hit that concrete and fractured his neck or back (because as you should know, this is also a very real possibility). Now he has a nice chunk taken out of c4, you've moved him trying to play hero, and jostled his spinal cord. How do you plan on breathing for him now that his diaphragm is shot? Are you going to put your bare mouth on his and ventilate with vomit all over his face? Does it even matter now that he may very well been on a ventilator for the rest of his "life". 

...Or maybe you could have reserved the risk of further injury caused and followed a proven protocol, waited for EMS to show up with the appropriate equipment, and handled the situation accordingly.

Stepping out of this one. Take that for whatever it's worth.


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## Gharrissc

After sitting back and thinking about the situation,I would have probably done the same thing this officer did. It is very easy to say from a dog lover/rescuer stand point that I wouldn't have shot that dog, and I would have tried to leash it or use other 'more humane' methods,but if you put emotions aside,you have to look at the situation,without any of us being there of course. I'm sure some of those officers really hated what had to happen. It certainly was damned if you do..damned if you don't .


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## Olivers mama

Armchair quarterbacks - perfect, msvette - for this thread. 

Mrs. K - you keep saying how things would've been "so different" (read that, "Better") in Germany. So? Things probably would've been "different" in a small rural area, too. What's that prove?

50 years ago, cops & firemen were respected & held in high esteem. My dad was a cop & I'm glad he isn't alive today how we trash our 1st responders constantly. But if someone's in trouble, who do they call? Yup - the cops. We've become a nation of cop-haters & I have no patience for that.

The dog acted like he was gonna bite. Cop shoots dog. Dog didn't die, but people are still ticked off. Had the cop shot a 2nd time & then the dog DID die, it'd be police brutality. Cops can't win.

And, as far as your laws - the way it's written - that you propose to protect good sami's? Don't believe a word of it. Ex: car accident, driver ejected. 3 of us stop to offer help. Driver's not breathing, not too many contusions noted. The construction guy drags a piece of plywood off his truck. We drag the driver onto the plywood (back-boarding him) & begin CPR. Until EMS arrived. Applied pressure to obvious wounds. Stabilized head & neck. EMS took over & the guy made it. Cops took our info - to include our professions.

A few months later, 2 of us are named in a lawsuit. Not the construction guy. Just the 2 nurses. Seems some idiot bystander - not the accident victim, mind you - realized we had medical backgrounds & that we'd "practiced medicine without a license". Good samaritan laws, we found out, do not cover fire, police, or medical personnel who try to help. And we were the Lucky Ones - in the Land of Frivolous Lawsuits, the one against us was thrown out.

Nowadays, there's always someone waiting to do a cell-phone video of something going on. Can't even pick your nose any more in public, for fear it will show up on YouTube...and there's never ANY hesitation to dislike the cops. Nothing I can do to change your perceptions, just hope you never need one.

BTW - about the only thing you can (legally) do when someone is having a seizure (& I'm not convinced these were seizures), is stick something in their mouth - like a spoon, NOT your hand - to prevent swallowing of the tongue. So the cop could do nothing. But shoot an attacking dog, secure the scene, & wait for EMS. If I had to choose between the arrival of EMS or AC, you can be darn sure I could care less about AC coming for an out-of-control dog. I'd rather see EMS pick up the human.


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## DharmasMom

abakerrr said:


> * However, you CAN monitor them closely to make sure they 1) don't vomit and 2) don't quit breathing. Both are common actions for people who seize. If they vomit they need to be placed on their side.*
> 
> I know better than to play the 'what if' game, because sooner or later we'll be talking in circles, but I'll entertain this one. First of all, he wasn't vomiting. If he wasnt vomiting, there would be no need for anyone to rush the scene and flip him on his side. But let's say 'what if' he was vomiting and you rushed over and flipped him over. Your still not going to get the vomit out of his airway that he has already aspirated without a suction unit, but let's say you get the bulk of it out. Congrats, you've maintained whatever is left of his airway. 'What if' when he started to seize, he hit that concrete and fractured his neck or back (because as you should know, this is also a very real possibility). Now he has a nice chunk taken out of c4, you've moved him trying to play hero, and jostled his spinal cord. How do you plan on breathing for him now that his diaphragm is shot? Are you going to put your bare mouth on his and ventilate with vomit all over his face? Does it even matter now that he may very well been on a ventilator for the rest of his "life".
> 
> ...Or maybe you could have reserved the risk of further injury caused and followed a proven protocol, waited for EMS to show up with the appropriate equipment, and handled the situation accordingly.
> 
> Stepping out of this one. Take that for whatever it's worth.


"Real possibility" of receiving a cervical spine fracture from a ground level fall is stretching it. In 25 years of healthcare, I have yet to see someone who seized end up in a halo. But hey, I just saw a guy the other night that end up with an open tib-fib fracture from falling down one step so ANYTHING is possible. Sure it could happen but the odds are against it. I HAVE seen multiple seizure patients vomit, however and quit breathing. 

But if you want to talk about maintaining c-spine, that is not rocket science and our cops know how to do that as well. I ran a guy who was run over by Ford F-250 pick up truck. Both axles over his chest. We were about 3 minutes away but the cops still beat us there. There was already a cop holding c-spine on the guy. I took it over from him. And really, I don't expect them to do that. 

I guess I must be pretty spoiled where I live. Our cops carry pocket masks, AEDs and first aid kits. They will render aid to those who need it until EMS arrives, not just stand around and potentially allow someone to die. If a "proven protocol" is too just standby and allow someone to die waiting for the "real" help to arrive than I am going to have to say that protocol sucks, IMO.

Again, I am not saying that they need to be able to take blood sugars or vital signs or splint fractures or anything like that. But maintaining an airway, starting CPR, holding pressure on someone who is bleeding and can't do it themselves, is really not to much to ask.


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## DharmasMom

Olivers mama said:


> BTW - about the only thing you can (legally) do when someone is having a seizure (& I'm not convinced these were seizures), is stick something in their mouth - like a spoon, NOT your hand - to prevent swallowing of the tongue. So the cop could do nothing. But shoot an attacking dog, secure the scene, & wait for EMS. If I had to choose between the arrival of EMS or AC, you can be darn sure I could care less about AC coming for an out-of-control dog. I'd rather see EMS pick up the human.



People do not "swallow their tongues" when seizing. It has long, long since changed that you do not stick anything in a seizing person's mouth.


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## martemchik

Man...how many times have I read on this forum about a dog dying because it came onto another dogs property, or how people want to shoot a dog because it keeps coming onto their lawn. And yet no one has an issue with it, most people actually tell the person to take up arms and fire away. But here, a cop, makes a split second decision with a charging dog running at him for a "warning bite" (whatever that is), and the world is about to end! Why was a gun his first choice? Why didn't he go all crocodile hunter and subdue the dog in a non-violent way?

But wait...a dog on your lawn...kill that thing now before it pees on the wrong bush!

Just wanted to add...this is why you should always have your dog restrained in your vehicle. If there is an accident and your dog is "protecting" you by not allowing ems to get to you, it will probably get shot. It is also part of the reason why GSDs aren't the choice of most service dog trainers. They will protect the person when they need some sort of help that shockingly the dog can't give them. This is kind of where that line comes into affect of how well is your dog trained. If your dog is a seizure alert dog but it won't allow anyone to come help, how is that providing a good service? And to expect someone to be there to first safely subdue your dog, and then help the seizing person, seems like a whole lot of work for a dog that is supposed to be helping.


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## Olivers mama

Dharma - geez, of everything I wrote, this is what you got out of it.....the tongue folds over, blocking the trachea (airway) during a seizure. it's not literally swallowing one's tongue. And yes, a trained person will insert something in the mouth, over the tongue, to keep this from happening. The power in the jaws during a seizure is remarkable, so something hard is suggested. A metal spoon, or something similar, is what's used in many circumstances.

They still teach that here as a last-resort. Sorry they no longer teach that in VA.


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## DharmasMom

Olivers mama said:


> Dharma - geez, of everything I wrote, this is what you got out of it.....the tongue folds over, blocking the trachea (airway) during a seizure. it's not literally swallowing one's tongue. And yes, a trained person will insert something in the mouth, over the tongue, to keep this from happening. The power in the jaws during a seizure is remarkable, so something hard is suggested. A metal spoon, or something similar, is what's used in many circumstances.
> 
> They still teach that here as a last-resort. Sorry they no longer teach that in VA.



No they teach that EVERYWHERE. And sorry but I pointed that out because it is a myth that you are perpetuating. From the epilepsy website:




> Stay calm
> Prevent injury
> During the seizure, you can exercise your common sense by insuring there is nothing within reach that could harm the person if she struck it.
> Pay attention to the length of the seizure
> Make the person as comfortable as possible
> Keep onlookers away
> Do not hold the person down
> If the person having a seizure thrashes around there is no need for you to restrain them. Remember to consider your safety as well
> Do not put anything in the person's mouth
> Contrary to popular belief, a person having a seizure is incapable of swallowing their tongue so you can breathe easy in the knowledge that you do not have to stick your fingers into the mouth of someone in this condition.
> Do not give the person water, pills, or food until fully alert
> If the seizure continues for longer than five minutes, call 911
> Be sensitive and supportive, and ask others to do the same
> 
> 
> Seizure First Aid | epilepsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any unconscious person has the ability for the tongue to fall against the back of the throat and block the trachea. This is NOT "swallowing" the tongue.
> 
> 
> And if they are teaching that sort of first aid in CA, then they are WAY behind the times.


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## msvette2u

Gharrissc said:


> After sitting back and thinking about the situation,I would have probably done the same thing this officer did. It is very easy to say from a dog lover/rescuer stand point that I wouldn't have shot that dog, and I would have tried to leash it or use other 'more humane' methods,but if you put emotions aside,you have to look at the situation,without any of us being there of course. I'm sure some of those officers really hated what had to happen. It certainly was damned if you do..damned if you don't .


:thumbup:
And now you know the reason for posting the vid on youtube. 
"Let's whip up a bunch of folks to hate and be angry at cops".
PS. I apologize for my rudeness before in my post to you.


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## Olivers mama

This thread is about the cop shooting the dog. This is taking it way off topic - all too common here.

If you want to learn about my "way-outdated" nurses' training, please start another thread.

BTW - the 'epilepsy website" list (I get all my medical kniowledge from the web) was designed for lay-people, when it says not to put anything in the person's mouth. The rest of what you highlighted in red says the same thing I'd already said.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Yeah, but over there, the cops don't have to deal with pit bulls, do they Mrs. K?


Of course they have to. Any kind or form of breed you can think off. Just because you can't import them anymore doesn't mean they don't exist and just because they got banned doesn't mean they get put down right away. A dog getting put down is the least resort and it takes a while until that decision is made. 

My Aunt had an American Staffordshire. When BSL was put into place she and her longterm boyfriend had to provide a criminal record, they had to sit in a class and get the "Hundefuehrerschein" which is a special dog handling schooling, take a theory test and on top of that the dog had to go through a temperament test and they had to pay like 600 Euros of Tax a year for a dangerous dog.

I know, over here, in the UK and other places dogs can be put down just for the way they look if they are banned. Germany doesn't do that and despite the ban, there pits, staffordshire terriers and other breeds around and if you want one, you can get one.


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## Liesje

DharmasMom said:


> "Real possibility" of receiving a cervical spine fracture from a ground level fall is stretching it. In 25 years of healthcare, I have yet to see someone who seized end up in a halo.


Yep, my 250lb epileptic husband has had two grand mal seizures in the shower (like a ceramic tub, not a plastic shower stall) and was not injured other than where one hand clenched on the other and he gouged himself with his fingernails. It's scary and he sleeps for about 14 hours afterward but no major head or back injuries.


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## Mrs.K

> Mrs. K - you keep saying how things would've been "so different" (read that, "Better") in Germany. So? Things probably would've been "different" in a small rural area, too. What's that prove?


Not better but different. Can't explain it. It's something that I am still getting used to. Especially in how calls are being handled and how things work over here. It is a big adjustment from what I am used to. 

For example, where I live, they don't have a partner. It's one cop per car. Would never happen in Germany. But then again, it's easy to forget how small Germany is and how big the US actually really is. Or when there is a small accident, let's say one car hit another, you can almost guarantee that half the city shows up including the Firedepartment. 

Like yesterday, a small incident that could have been handled by two, maybe four responders. Nope, the entire Firedepartment showed up, wie Sirenes and the truck. There were like ten fireman. That is something that I am still getting used to. Not sure why that is, maybe liabilities or whatever it's just fun to watch.


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## DharmasMom

Olivers mama said:


> This thread is about the cop shooting the dog. This is taking it way off topic - all too common here.
> 
> If you want to learn about my "way-outdated" nurses' training, please start another thread.
> 
> BTW - the 'epilepsy website" list (I get all my medical kniowledge from the web) was designed for lay-people, when it says not to put anything in the person's mouth. The rest of what you highlighted in red says the same thing I'd already said.



I am really sorry you are offended. But as a nurse, you are perpetuating outdated medical practices. This is a public forum, tons of people read it. There is always the possibility that someone reads what you posted and then their friend/family member has a seizure and they go sticking a metal spoon in that person's mouth because they "read on the 'net that a nurse said they should". I WILL correct that. By advocating a metal spoon, it sounds like you are talking to lay people. No one in an EMS or hospital setting is going to use a spoon. We have oral airways and nasal trumpets if we need to support someone's airway. I would assume you know this. 

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not with the "get all my medical knowledge from the web" comment. So I will just say that the internet is invaluable in keeping up with the latest practices in medicine.


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## Olivers mama

Dharma,
1. No, I am not.
2. Drop it.


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## Gharrissc

Ditto


msvette2u said:


> :thumbup:
> PS. I apologize for my rudeness before in my post to you.


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## Anthony8858

Since this story is fairly local, I thought I'd offer an update:

_An agency spokesman said that Star was still in serious condition, but showing “signs of slight improvement.”
Stankiewicz — who sources said was intoxicated — was taken to Bellevue Hospital and treated for minor injuries. He was later cuffed on an arrest warrant for an open container summons, cops.
His sister said Stankiewicz, who was born in Poland, left the family’s Illinois home about a decade ago due to a drug problem.

_


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## Anubis_Star

I would of said warranted IF immediately following the shot they ensured the poor dog was HUMANELY euthanized, i.e. killed on the spot to stop further suffering, and if they then made a desperate attempt to check on the owner. I honestly felt the actions were justified, for the first 10 seconds... until I saw the poor dog ALIVE and laying there, suffering, and the two officers just strolling around as if there wasn't a man on the ground 10 feet away from them, or his bleeding shot dog 10 feet to their other side.


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## Nigel

sparra said:


> Are things so bad in the US that people can't show concern for their fellow man??? Surely not.....


Unfortunately it's getting bad everywhere, not just the USA. The story about Simon Burgess in the UK still bothers me. 
Man drowned in shallow lake after firefighters 'not allowed' to rescue him | UK news | The Guardian


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## Mrs.K

Nigel said:


> Unfortunately it's getting bad everywhere, not just the USA. The story about Simon Burgess in the UK still bothers me.
> Man drowned in shallow lake after firefighters 'not allowed' to rescue him | UK news | The Guardian


You have got to be kidding... health and safety if it's higher than ankle deep? :help:

I don't know. If that was me I would have effed the policy and went in to safe the man because when you become a firefighter, cop or EMS you also have a moral obligation and that is to help and safe lives, no matter what a frickin policy says. At least that's what I believe.


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## CelticGlory

They should have shoot the dog to kill it if they were going to shoot in the first place, that is my only problem with the situation. Many seem to forget that a pitbull has a high pain tolerance so the pepper spray would not have worked to take it down. My mom's bf's friend helped a person out who was getting attacked by a pitbull they used a heavy object to get the dog off of the person, but the pit still held on. The officer should have finished the dog off. I love dog's but, I don't think they should have left it to suffer in pain like that either.


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## Nikolai553

Police shoot to kill, they dont shoot to ensure a kill. (aka double tapping a downed target)

Although I sorrow for a loyal protector, it was either the officer's leg or the dog. I blame animal control for not arriving sooner and I blame the crowd for rilling up the dog causing it to go into defense mode. (just listen to all the yelling, how about the scenes before the shot? I can assure you the same yelling was there)


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## Olivers mama

Great - the story just keeps getting better, doesn't it?

Crowd incites dog. Because owner is having a "seizure". Cop shoots dog because he's been incited by crowd. Dog isn't dead, but cop is blasted anyway. Poor puppy...

Turns out - owner didn't have seizure (told you), but was drunk. No one in crowd helped. So the dog was incited & the cop's in trouble because of a drunk.

Wonderful.


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## GermanShepherds6800

The officers kicked the downed persons foot instead of calling for ambulance. The dog felt owner was going to be injured by them. If they got close enough to kick the owner then the dog was not being aggressive at the start and it did not escalate until they kicked the owner.



> a couple of witnesses told the Daily News that Star’s aggressiveness may have been provoked by how the officers approached Pollock. “Instead of calling the ambulance, they started kicking him,” said Aida Feliciano. “If you kick the dog’s owner, the dog is obviously going to attack,” said Alan Crosby, who also saw the incident.


from: http://www.care2.com/causes/nypd-shoots-dog-while-her-owner-has-a-seizure.html#13453540255121&action=collapse_widget&id=3761290

The article also mentions that the employees at the KFC there are used to the dog as a regular visitor and confirms the dog is friendly and social.


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## Mrs.K

Olivers mama said:


> Great - the story just keeps getting better, doesn't it?
> 
> Crowd incites dog. Because owner is having a "seizure". Cop shoots dog because he's been incited by crowd. Dog isn't dead, but cop is blasted anyway. Poor puppy...
> 
> Turns out - owner didn't have seizure (told you), but was drunk. No one in crowd helped. So the dog was incited & the cop's in trouble because of a drunk.
> 
> Wonderful.


You never assume that a subject is drunk, only after a definite test you can say if they are drunk or not, we can't judge since there are certain condition that mimic the behavior of a drunk person. You are a nurse, you should know that.


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## Olivers mama

Thanks, Mrs. K, for your lesson. I already know you don't "assume" ANYthing when first arriving on ANY scene.

However- since this is all AFTER the fact, all I'm saying is that none of this had to happen.

I think I will delete all public forums from my computer - there are far too many Holier Than Thou people who like nothing better than to put others down.

I thank you all for the information I've gotten to help with our rescued dog.


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## msvette2u

Not everyone is like that.


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## Konotashi

Not sure what all has been said, but I watched the video a few more times, and it looks like the officer only stepped toward the man after the dog charged and issued a warning bite to a woman in the crowd. I don't think he consciously intended to step toward the man - he was looking up at the woman, so he probably stepped forward to check on her. In which case, the dog turned around and charged at him. 
So, after watching it a couple more times, I feel his shot was entirely justified. 

However, I don't understand why the second officer pepper sprayed the dog AFTER she was shot. It does sort of look like she was going to get up, but there wasn't much indication that she would be able to get up and charge again. 

However, I realize that adrenaline was probably pumping, and in that kind of situation, neither of them could have really sat back and pondered what they would do. They had split seconds to react. I feel the first cop is 100% in the right. The second cop... not so much, but I can't say for certain what I would have done in the same situation. No one can - not until they're put in the situation.


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## Mrs.K

Olivers mama said:


> Thanks, Mrs. K, for your lesson. I already know you don't "assume" ANYthing when first arriving on ANY scene.
> 
> However- since this is all AFTER the fact, all I'm saying is that none of this had to happen.
> 
> I think I will delete all public forums from my computer - there are far too many Holier Than Thou people who like nothing better than to put others down.
> 
> I thank you all for the information I've gotten to help with our rescued dog.



Jeez...talk about holier than thou... :crazy:


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## MaggieRoseLee

Time to close this particular thread, seems to have run it's course on these pages anyways.


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