# stubborn brat



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

I knew that Vida would be stubborn.. most female dogs are. 
I'm kinda frustrated with her today though. Yesterday was a very good day. But today, she doesn't want to listen. ANYTHING I say is completely optional to her, so it seems.
I tell her off, she just stays on her hind legs. I push her off, she gets back on. Then it's off to a time-out. Her biting today is terrible. If she's chewing on something and I say 'no', she usually leaves it. Today, she's just looking at me that continuing what she's doing. After I take it away, she will find something else then 'hide' it in her mouth and act like she doesn't have anything. If she has a small peice of something, even paper, she hides it under her paw or between them and then will put her head down and look at me like "I don't got nothin'!" 
We were doing our daily OB, she wouldn't even sit when asked to, or come when I call her. 
Maybe she's having a bad day but she's completely ignoring me for whatever reason.
75% of the time she listens to me, and the other 25% even on a good day, she ignores me.
How in the world do I gain her respect and let her know that it's not optional to listen, she needs to react when told.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Most female dogs are not stubborn. I have had dogs for 22 years and have never noticed that one sex of dog is more stubborn than another. People are stubborn because they persist in forgetting that puppies are just that: puppies. They want to play!







They are not robots and it is not fair to expect a puppy to listen to you 100% of the time. Once they sense your frustration they will certainly not listen. 

Maybe it's time you take a time out?


----------



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

The ones that I have encountered are a lot more stubborn than the male dogs.
I know shes a puppy. I don't remind myself all that much because sometimes it ends up turning into an excuse. She does what she wants most of the time, if she wants to play, we play, if she wants to nap, she goes to her crate and naps.
I try to set guidelines for her with obedience daily and walks etc. I find routines work well with puppies.
I don't expect her to listen to me 100% of the time, but it would be nice if she didn't look at me with a blank stare all day.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

If that's her birth date in your signature then she's only 3 months old - a BABY!

Think 2 year old child - that's about how much attention span and 'obedience' you're gonna get.











> Quote:I tell her off, she just stays on her hind legs. I push her off, she gets back on.


When you push her off you are making it a game to her. If she jumps on you turn and walk away from her. She gets NO attention. Puppies like attention - even negative attention (which is what she gets when you push her).

If she has something she's no supposed to - take it from her and then give her something she CAN have. Make sure to keep her area clear of non-chewable items whenever possible.

While routines do work you need to take into account her age.

Spike, my CC pup, was born Oct 29th. I work obedience with him 3-4 times each day for now more than 2-3 MINUTES. I work a maximum of TWO behaviors in each session.

I do not expect 100% compliance from him yet - he is still learning.


----------



## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

have you tried "click & treat" when she looks at you? I find this a good way to bond wiht the dog (and at 3 Siena still has these "i want to ignore you" moments).

For click and treat, start by clicking and treating when Vida looks at you (just keep the clicker/treats around all the time). She will notice that you do this and will pay more attention to you. Next step would be to have her look at you and then hold the eye contact for a couple seconds, then click and treat. Then, add in the "watch me" command and click & treat etc.

I always have to go back to this now and again. She listens really well most of the time, depending on what else is going on.

I read today someone uses an air horn to get the dogs attention (when fighting), but I hadn't thought of that. I've used a whistle, but it just hurts my ears


----------



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you Lauri. I will definetly keep in mind to just get up and walk away. She usually jumps on me when I'm sitting on the couch or something. When I get home from work I ignore her for about 5 minutes while I change clothes and get my stuff out of the living room, then I go to her rather than her coming to me.
I need to get the people who come over to 'ignore' her if she's being jumpy and yappy too.. this is especially important because I do have a few friends over who are almost terrified of dogs/puppies.
Usually OB is just sit down stay come. Sit and down in the morning, then mix it up throughout the day. 
I`m not a first time dog owner but this is the first time I`m training a dog. I just want to make sure that she`s learning things in a proper timeline. I don`t want to limit her potential but I dòn`t want to overdo it either!


----------



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you Diana! I have a clicker but no treats right now. I`m sure I have ground beef thawed in the fridge or hot dogs around though!
I will definetly do this though!


----------



## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

LOL. I REMEMBER those days. Man they were great fun. Denali was a little terror!!! 
She did everything you said. 

At one point, she was not allowed on the couch but she would jump up and we would tell her "off". Two seconds later, she's back up there. Me: "Denali off" ....Immediately right back on *push her off* "Off" ...*jumps back up* *push her off* "Off!" 

So she's like hmm... *Gonna bite this tree over here* 
Me: "Ah ah, take this toy instead" 
Her: *Never! I'm gonna run in puppy zoomie and grab some more of this plant stuffing while im at it* 
Me: "Nono! Leave it!" 
So I pull it out of her mouth and put it back and she grabs some more again. "Leave it!" 
Her: *Continue to chew while staring defiantly at me* 
Me: *Have to take it out of her mouth... Now she's biting my hands...* "Ouch! Ouch! Darn sharp teeth" 
Her: *Gonna jump back on the couch!* 
Me: "Okay that's it... crate for you darn it." 

Two hours later she wakes up an angel again and we can do some OB LOL. Have fun and try to enjoy these puppy days, they go away much too fast.


----------



## Dinahmyte (Sep 26, 2004)

She is a baby! Are you doing positive reinforcement training? At this age I wouldn't expect her to follow commands without reward. If you are using treats, maybe up the ante to something of a little more value. You don't want her to ignore commands because then you are building that behavior that she only has to listen when she wants. Have a leash on her so she can't get too far away from you and lure her with treats, for 'come' , lure her to the sit also. 
Lauri had an excellent suggestion for 'off' and it is very true that even the negative attention is rewarding her. I like the idea of turning and walking away, or you could also ask for a sit. She can't be jumping if she is sitting. 
One of the most important things is to not train when you are frustrated. It will not be a positive experience for you or the pup. If you are just not feeling it, put her in the crate for a bit to give both of you a time out, or even take her for a walk if that will be relaxing for both of you.


----------



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

hahah I love when they run around like little terrors.. This is probably the only time aside from being in the yard when Harley will play with her. She bangs into EVERYTHING. thank god we don`t have wood floors.. she already slides into doors and the couches on carpet. One time the back door was shut and she bolted at it and bang! 
other times she will run and try to grab a plant and fail. then go back and end up tripping over it. 

I`m terrified of what damange she will be capable of when she`s 50+ pounds


----------



## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I remember making at least 2 frustrated posts about her. 
The best advice I ever got is to put her in the crate for "nap time" when she got out of control. Just like 2 year olds, they need their nap times when they get fussy LOL. 
If she's being a little PITA go "Nap time for the puppy!" and put her in there until she wakes up. 
Denali would take 2 hour power naps and wake up somewhat more manageable.


----------



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

`At this age I wouldn't expect her to follow commands without reward.`

Okay, this is where I`m going completely wrong then!!
I am talking to a trainer right now that comes to the home then meets at wherever you want. Perfect for us because I don`t drive!


----------



## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I would recommend reading "How to raise a puppy you can live with". There's lots of goodies in there about teaching puppies and how to have fun. Socialization is also extremely important at her age.


----------



## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote:but it would be nice if she didn't look at me with a blank stare all day.


she should be looking at you with _is it time? is it time? what are we gonna do next?_ anticipation
It sounds as if you are using a lot of negatives rather than 98% positives (which is appropriate for a puppy) & only 2% negative (or none at all depending on you & the dog)


Watch this video series
kikopup 
starting with 
how to teach leave-it without intimidation 

Traditional methods of dog training depend alot on 'intimidation', & intimidation will have it's place again as your pup gets older 
- think 9-12 months when your pup has completed a couple of obedience classes & knows all the basic commands & has had them <u>proofed in different environments</u> & is now 'pretending' not to understand a basic SIT as her attention has drifted to 
_what's that leaf doing over there!_ 
_oh wait danger alert! alien_ (small child) _approaching at 3 o-clock!_

- BUT it's not a fast track to learning - watch the difference in a dog that is taught to sit through clicker training & positive rewards (treats are often the simplest means of communication) vs a dog that is taught to sit by pulling up on the leash (or even worse by pressing the dog's butt down): in each situation the dog WILL learn to sit but the first dog will offer it with completely different body language, & will through her life, offer a sit in anticipation of positive feedback from the owner because she KNOWS that sit is always good.

When Vida offers behaviors you don't like/want it's more effective to ignore or redirect to something you do want her to do, than to correct her with a NO or pushing at her (in dog language, that <u>push off</u> or <u>holding the muzzle</u> while saying _No Bite_ is actually a _Yes, Let's Play_ response so you can see why she's not 'getting it').
And she's a BABY so even if you redirect her 100X today, she will still try those behaviors tomorrow but if you successfully communicate the FUNNESS of the redirected behaviors, she'll only offer them 90X & by the end of 2 weeks, she should only be offering them 1-10X (depending on what's driving the behavior for her) & this is how puppies really learn.
There are many many poorly behaved dogs because owners lose patience/interest long before their pup does & people just resort to the







rather than actually communicating with another species.

There is no doubt that some dogs are far more trying than others whether it's by their apparant stubbornness (it's NOT stubbornness in doggy language) or their apparant lack of focus (air head has a completely new depth of meaning).
Vida may be a 'hard' dog rather than a 'soft' dog (talk to her breeder, I'd assume that she would've matched you with a softer pup rather than a hard headed pup - I think that Vida is your first, completely yours dog & your first GSD) but effective communication, so that she learns what you think you are teaching her, is key.

Subscribe to Suzanne Clothier site (free) & read her articles, she breeds GSD's so she is very breed experienced









A recent blog entry where she recommends some books she's read recently.


> Quote: THE THINKING DOG by Gail Fisher is a wonderful book for those who would like to know more about clicker training, who may come from a more traditional dog training background, and who appreciate clear sensible writing. Nicely detailed, full of real life experience & examples, written by a trainer who continues to evolve in her appreciation of dogs and ever richer training methdologies, The Thinking Dog has a lot to offer trainers of any denomination. Fisher does a great job of avoiding the trap of drowning the reader in operant conditioning lingo, but does offer a wealth of ideas, step-by-step instructions, and the depth of her background & knowledge shines through. Available at Dogwise.com


----------



## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Kaitykaity
> I don't expect her to listen to me 100% of the time, but it would be nice if she didn't look at me with a blank stare all day.


I get disturbed sometimes because Siena will sit there for hours and just watch me. I get a bit self conscious sometimes. I guess the click and treat worked







ha ha


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

You have gotten some really good advice here. One thing I worked with Ava on when she was a puppy was "give it". I would practice with toys and such, I would play the trade game with her, give me your toy and I will give you a treat, then she would get the toy back. Practice this over and over. You can practice this anywhere. I found that when Ava got a hold of something she wasnt supposed to have, she would give it to me easily. I would reward her with something (skritches, a treat or another toy).


----------



## ldw6559 (Jun 1, 2009)

I sure am no expert but I have owned many different breeds t/o my lifetime, sometimes multiple breeds at one time. I have a GSD, Griffin who just turned 1 on Jan. 24th. He did everything you mention and then some. One thing I do know is they are just like children and most of the time the smarter they are the more mischievios they can be and you do have a GSD so they are very smart. Griffin is just now minding the way I always wanted. I think if you try to control them to early in life you take away the joy that makes this breed so special. Raise them well but with positive reinforcement, not too many treats or clicks. Griffin has the sweetest personality, he has been extensively socialized did not need a trainer but is as much a member of my family as any one of us. That is the secret, a happy childhood makes for a happy adult. Trust me when I say they are worth all the energy it takes and good luck.


----------



## mykaya (Dec 10, 2009)

Lots of really great advice here which you seem very open to. Sometimes it helps to change a perception i.e. your heading,"stubborn brat" implies this is the pup's fault, necessitating you fixing "her" problem!! Instead, consider it, "the challenge of living with a normal puppy", who just doesn't happen to understand your verbal language or your rules or your expectations. All of the training issues involved in choosing to have a dog live with us need to be taught, age appropriately, before there is any discipline. This takes time and repetition. Realizing this should alleviate your frustration and perception of stubborness. Dogs read our body language and our emotions and our state of balance, or lack of, and will respond accordingly. So, it helps to know that training is going on 100% of the time, conscious or not! Please don't worry about enforcing respect - it is a by-product of fair, consistent and appropriate training/learning that can only be achieved when you are calm and open to what your puppy or dog's limitations are at the time. Think about how difficult it would be for any human to learn a new skill or language. Then translate that to learning it in a different culture where no english is spoken. Then add in, the teacher and your caregiver raising their voice to you in a foreign language with a frustrated or angry look on their face. There are a number of different stressed responses which could occur and which would escalate each time this happened. This is the closest human analogy to what a pup or dog potentially faces every single day when they live with us humans!! So, when your pup or dog is ignoring you, disobeying you, running away from you, sassing you or just looking perplexed in response to you...it is always appropriate to ask your self, what have you, as the human, missed or failed at in the teaching, or the delivery, or the emotion that you are projecting. A perception shift to understanding how a pup/dog learns and how they respond and incorporating that into the teaching/training/everyday life situations will go a long way in helping the relationship between you and your pup and greatly increase the success of your training. And it always helps to remember that alot of the "undesirable" behaviours that we see in a pup are normal for a young pup and will actually extinguish on their own, with age. If, however, we bring alot of negative attention to them, they can very easily be reinforced into habits. Re-direction and bringing attention/reward to the desirable behaviours are much more effective and healthy. Have a pocket full of treats and reward often when the dog is being good i.e. lying quiet on the floor and not jumping...don't wait until you are forced into correcting the "undesirable" behaviour. Dogs do what works and treats are a strong motivator for learning!
Good luck and hope this helps!


----------



## rover51 (Apr 21, 2009)

Lots of good advise! I gotta take some notes! Panzer's been a butthead lately.


----------



## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:How in the world do I gain her respect and let her know that it's not optional to listen, she needs to react when told.


Ahaha, sorry I had to laugh because I just went through this with Akbar. He would do things when HE felt like it, after being extremely consistant, he is now doing the things he was ignoring before. Of course I kept forgeting that he was a baby.... *smacks self* But it gets better with age and consistancy.


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

Well Paige is the brat of all brats in bratland.
Yes GSD puppies are hard. My mutts were so easy it was stupid. Paige was a terror. The crate is my friend. Having a pup friend helps a lot if you can find someone. At 6 months we met Paige's best friend and it helped a lot.
You can never understate the importance of exercise.My pups don't wear me out I wear them out.


----------

