# My vision for testing waters for GSD breeding



## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Newbie here sucking up your experiences. Thanks to all who share here.

We think we would like to become small-scale breeders with the option of becoming larger scale if we enjoy it and we reach the next stage of our life (full retirement). We have a relatively local breeder picked out to probably buy our GSDs from. They are a large, well-established breeder who also imports dogs from Germany, and appears not to be a problem getting ancestral lineages. They also show and train in several specialties.

Not knowing what we don't know, I envision getting a very high quality breeding pair as pups and raising them as family dogs, with the requisite kennels/etc that prevent accidents. We will be living in the country with a total of 6 other homes within a 1 mile radius (and probably only 20 within a 2 mile radius) so I think the dog running will be limited. Will keep the bitch inside/kenneled during/after heat until/unless ready to breed.

If we got high-quality bloodlines with recent international champions, would we need to go through the hoops (have not researched those hoops yet, but I'm just not a dog-show type of person) to get them judged in order to produce great offspring? Of course it would help ensure the genes passed, but wouldn't actually do anything about the actual passing of the genes. Would likely send them for formal training (obedience, security, and possibly herding), so might get those qualifications.

Would not be doing this for the money (tax write off----yes! But actual income.....no). For me it would be more about getting an extremely high quality set of animals, keeping them as forever pets, and ensuring those traits are passed on.

Your thoughts??


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No. All that is necessary is that the sire and dam of your litter is AKC registered with full registration. You can feed the crappiest foods, wait until the animals are of age for breeding according to the AKC, wait for the bitch to come in heat, and if she takes, shazaam! you're a breeder. 

If the sire and dam are of good stock and not closely related, chances are good the pups will be of similar quality. Championships and titles do not make their puppies any prettier or trainable. Jumping through the "hoops" with breeding stock will not make what they produce any better or worse. It is the decisions you make while going through the hoops that might improve the quality of your product. 

Really there are no shortcuts. You can put any dog together with any bitch and come out with puppies. But unless you evaluate the dog and the bitch and the pedigrees behind the dog and the bitch, you really cannot hope to produce puppies that are even equal to the animals you are breeding. You can do some health screenings on the dogs you are putting together, but unless you know what is currently running in the lines, you are likely to put animals together that have stuff running on both sides that will make the puppies much more likely of having those issues. 

Temperament and health, breeders shouldn't say they are breeding for temperament and health, that should be a given. All breeders should be breeding for health/longevity and temperament. Temperament depends on genetics, but also on what you are seeing in the animals that you intend to breed. The best way to know what you have, especially for new people, is to go through the process of training and titling them. You can breed dogs that are not titled, no problem, but the process of titling dogs does two things for you: it shows you what the prospective dog's strengths and weaknesses are, so that you can then choose a mate that is not lacking in those areas. But it also teaches you a lot of about training and trialing. The trialing probably won't give you much help with your puppy buyers unless they are intending to trial their dogs. But the training, all breeders need to be able to give their puppy buyers help if they need in the area of training. And if that is a hoop that you chose to by-pass, than you really do not have as much ability to help the people that are buying dogs from you. 

It isn't a good idea to get a breeding pair as pups and raise them as pets, and then when they are old enough breeding them together. Because at eight weeks you have no idea what their strengths and weaknesses are going to be. Your best bet is to get a dog or bitch and raise it for 2 years and put time and energy in training and titling it, and at the same time studying its pedigree, while looking around for a comparable dog or bitch, or a litter that is likely to produce what you need in a mate for your dog. Then you do the same for the next pup. 

The thing is to be a good breeder, you have to make breeding decisions that sometimes are really hard to make. To not breed a dog that you put 4 years of study and time into. But if you can't make such a decision, then don't do it all. Maybe the best/quickest way to do what you want is to start with a bitch. Spend three years working with her and learning her and looking at the pedigrees and making a list of what you want in a stud dog, and then find an outside stud or even buy and adult dog that matches what you want/need to complement her. 

Who you get your bitch from, use them to learn as much about breeding, dogs, pedigrees, people in your area that breed, etc. 

We really do not need breeders who are going to just throw animals together haphazardly, but we do need breeders who want to be students of the breed, who are willing to go the extra mile to make the best dogs they can make.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Thank you for the lengthy response.

So, looking at it from another perspective, how DOES one slowly become a successful breeder?

Get a high quality bitch with an outstanding known pedigree, raise her for 3 years, and then get a stud dog that complements her pedigree and temperment? Obviously if she has any health or temperment problems then get her fixed without breeding.

Would be interested in training for protection, tracking and herding.

Just seems to be a shame to have spectacular animals and not share their genes for future generations....


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Just seems to be a shame to have spectacular animals and not share their genes for future generations....


Some of the most outstanding dogs I have ever been privileged enough to own were nothing close to breeding quality. Not a shame at all.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

You will also want to research your state's laws. Some have cracked down on backyard breeding and instituted fairly strict requirements, like mandatory veterinary care and living conditions. Breeders in the states that haven't face a well-deserved bad reputation, whether you in particular deserve one or not. And, of course, you must be prepared for a failure or loss, both financially and emotionally. As an unproven breeder you will have to rely on expensive genetic testing to demonstrate quality and still may not recoup your costs without a proven reputation. The price of a dog is based on the breeders reputation and experience. There is also the care involved and whether you are physically up for it. I think you need to do more research. 
I found this general information that might give you a start:
How To Breed German Shepherds — Breeding Business 
google 'you state' 'dog breeding laws' and 'sale of dogs laws' to locate your state's laws. 
There are also messages on this forum from the past that may help you. 
And research dog breeding in general in your area to ascertain whether it's an over-saturated market or one you can enter with confidence of having a ready client base. 
For me, it would be too much responsibility for little lives in an uncertain business. And make no mistake - it IS a business with all the headaches of insurance, lawsuits, etc.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Join clubs, find a great breeder, who will work with you as a mentor. Spend time working with them and helping them at their kennel. Get a great bitch from them and partner with them for the first litter using either one of their studs or having them help you find a stud. 

You will not find this by asking out of the blue, you'll need to build a relationship of trust over time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Thank you for the lengthy response.
> 
> So, looking at it from another perspective, how DOES one slowly become a successful breeder?
> 
> ...


I think you are right, it is a shame to have spectacular animals and not share their genes for further generations. The way to do it is to get involved in some venue, herding, tracking, IPO. Start with a dog that you are not really planning on breeding, but just want to get your feet wet with. After a couple of years of training that dog and getting to know the people in the venue, find out where they got the dogs that you really like, and start looking for the bitch you really want. Or a pup out of that bitch. Then after a couple of years of really going through the stuff with her, look for a male that complements her structure, temperament and pedigree. 

And yes, expect to wash some out. It can be heart-breaking. Raise a dog for a couple of years, trial them, and be absolutely obsessed with everything about them, only to find out that they did not pass OFA. Case in point, my Joy. I had her in star puppy classes from 10 weeks to 16, and again 16 to 22 weeks, then we did Basic household obedience for six weeks. Did a set of classes of rally. Then I did a puppy agility set of classes. Then back to basic obedience, and then CGC. We were out there every week to classes and I was just having more and more fun with her. I put her in conformation classes and we had fun with that too. I titled her in Rally, and went with more agility classes and then were setting her to go for her CD, when I did her hips and elbows, and her hips looked worse than any hips I have ever seen on x-ray. Her mom was OFA good, and so was her dad and he was also A-stamped. It was a real bummer, but she was not going to be bred, period. I did keep her, and she was a sweet heart. I put her down last year, I think, at age 11. She never needed a surgery. But she was not breed-worthy with horrible hips. I thought maybe the early agility, but it wasn't, the puppy agility was done very carefully. She was a great dog, but not to be bred, and most of my dogs have not been bred. None of the time was wasted because every moment we are training, bonding, learning is time that I am packing away knowledge that I can impart on people who get my puppies, who might need it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, since you are in my state, I would highly advise you become involved with a club. Go visit the USCA, GSDCA clubs.

Second, it's not common for good breeders to have "breeding pairs". Usually, the breeder has the female and the male is owned by someone else. I've seen people drive half way across the country to breed to the male that was right for their female. One of the males that I'm interested in for my female at some point isn't even alive anymore. 

I'm not sure what your definition of "large scale" breeder is. That sounds like a puppy mill cranking out pets. You should be more worried about quality and understanding what you are seeing in a dog before you worry about the size of your operation. 

As a buyer, i would expect you to have titled your dogs. I personally would not accept less than IGP or SV herding titles unless they were bred for true working purposes duch as SAR or K9's. I would expect you to know exactly what temperament and drives your dog has as well as the health behind the dogs. To me, you learn about WHO your dog is in training. You prove WHAT your dog is in the titling. I would like to see comformation ratings on your dog and possibly a breed survey to know exactly what the judge is seeing.

And you start all of that with a club. You meet dogs. You watch. You learn. You make contacts and find a mentor to help get you started.

I will tell you that champion lines do not equal a dog that is automatically breedworthy. You have to prove that. Pedigrees look great on paper. I retired my male early due to allergies. I will never breed him and he's really nice. Great drives, great temperament - allergies so bad he can't continue in the sport without prescription meds. Nope. No breeding for him. And he's the son of a WUSV champion. You could raise a puppy and find out that the nerves are awful. Can't breed that. Or hips/elbows/TV are bad. Can't breed that. Pedigree are just a pretty piece of paper if you don't prove the dog worthy. 

You have to be prepared to take dogs back at any point in their life. You have to produce healthy puppies for the people that will love them. What's your main goal? Just pets? or dogs that can work in all venues as the breed was supposed to be?

I"m in PA - if you want to visit some clubs and start to learn more about our breed then shoot me a PM to let me know your area and I can give you some suggestions.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> some of the most outstanding dogs I have ever been privileged enough to own were nothing close to breeding quality. Not a shame at all.


Best dog ever had was a mutt bought out of a box in front of a Wal-Mart from a couple of pre-teen girls. Probably a shepherd/lab/rottie mix, but who knows. Certainly had the best of each breed in her.



Buckelke said:


> You will also want to research your state's laws.


I fortunately live in low-bureaucracy state. 



Buckelke said:


> you must be prepared for a failure or loss, both financially and emotionally. As an unproven breeder you will have to rely on expensive genetic testing to demonstrate quality and still may not recoup your costs without a proven reputation.


In my uneducated opinion, genetic testing to r/o the common problems (DM, EPI, etc) should be required before AKC registration. As science advances, I think this will eventually happen as it will be the best/quickest way to rid the pure breed of these diseases.

If I spend $2500 for a puppy, I think I will make it contingent upon getting genetic testing done before picking them up.



Buckelke said:


> I think you need to do more research.


Yes.


Buckelke said:


> it IS a business with all the headaches of insurance, lawsuits, etc.


Also yes. I would likely start another LLC with all dogs owned by the LLC.



selzer said:


> And yes, expect to wash some out. It can be heart-breaking.


While never experiencing what you are describing, I don't think I would be "heart broken" to find a dog I loved couldn't be allowed to produce offspring. If I want to continue and improve the pure breed, then any problem should be bred out. Doesn't mean they wouldn't make a wonderful family member until it is their time to go.

BTW - I or my close family have taken in many rescues. The most recent was a beautiful GSD dumped on the road a few miles from where we are building, just a little over a year ago. She is such a sweet girl, probably 10 years old, and almost assuredly has DM. She has claimed my elderly father as her BFF and he will care for her until it is time to put her down. He calls her Lissel, but she is really an angel because he had to put down his long-time BFF (a rottie) a few months before that and we were worried about him.



Jax08 said:


> First, since you are in my state,


Nope, I AM a PA, but not IN PA, but thank you. Retired military, back to school and now practice emergency medicine.



Jax08 said:


> to me, you learn about WHO your dog is in training. You prove WHAT your dog is in the titling


That is a great quote, but not sure I'm convinced of that. Understanding that I'm a newbie and while I respect (and agree with) the AKC's goal of maintaining/improving the breed, I think the proof of WHAT a dog is in the DOING. The title is the proving of the doing, but it is not THE doing.

Was watching a youtube video today about breeding GSDs. One breeder (maybe breeds/trains family protector dogs?) was saying how some GSDs, I think he referred to them as American Farm GSDs, are "ugly" (his term) because they might not have the greatest dentition or colors because they are bred to herd, and herd they do as they have that instinct, are extremely smart/high energy, with great endurance. Those dogs are DOING their proving, but might not be title winners. Just my newbie opinion.



Jax08 said:


> What's your main goal? Just pets? or dogs that can work in all venues as the breed was supposed to be?


I think my main goal would probably be family protection/pets/herding/tracking. Sure would be nice to have a dog that can track down all the deer my in-laws shoot but can't track down....


Okay, few more questions. Obviously the most important is health and temperament, but if my goal is as stated above, would I work to get her trained/titled as a GCG, and I see the AKC titles for herding and tracking.

I see there are 6 week courses for GCG. Are there classes for herding/tracking? Resources to teach me to teach her?? And is there an American title for protection?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

@Boatswain2PA

_Best dog ever had was a mutt bought out of a box in front of a Wal-Mart from a couple of pre-teen girls. Probably a shepherd/lab/rottie mix, but who knows. Certainly had the best of each breed in her.

I fortunately live in low-bureaucracy state.

In my uneducated opinion, genetic testing to r/o the common problems (DM, EPI, etc) should be required before AKC registration. As science advances, I think this will eventually happen as it will be the best/quickest way to rid the pure breed of these diseases._

*This is not going happen. The AKC has enough trouble getting people to register their puppies at all. The AKC is a registry, a pedigree service. They offer shows in conformation and the ability to title a dog in a variety of venues. But people will generally register a puppy shortly after they bring them home. If they wait a few months, they may never register their dog. And a lot of genetic disease testing cannot be tested for until an animal is a year or even two years old. 

The thing is, a dog is purebred if its sire and dam are purebreds. The SV is a German Shepherd registry. They can be very specific on the requirements for full registration because they are a singe-breed registry. The AKC has more than 200 dog breeds. They have a written standard for each of these, and a stud book. But they can't possibly require genetic testing for each breed, specific to that breed. They would have to partner with maybe the German Shepherd Dog Club of America for German Shepherds, and have them list the requirments for genetic testing, and requirements to be met for breeding. And then for each of their 200+ breeds. Now, if it was the GSDCA that set the standard requirements for full registration, then they're going to require championships, because they are a show-dog organization. The whole purpose of dog shows is to measure dogs against others to find those most suitable for breeding according to the standard. But everyone translates the standard and the importance of each element in the standard. Believe me that working GSD owners and breeders are not going to want a show-line organization to set the rules for what is breed-worthy, for what can or cannot be registered. *

_If I spend $2500 for a puppy, I think I will make it contingent upon getting genetic testing done before picking them up._

*Well good luck. You cannot do the genetic testing prior to 8 weeks. Worthless. Not all testicles have dropped, the orthapedics are not complete. The heart may still have a hole in it, which can be still perfectly normal -- normally the heart is complete by 8 weeks, but sometimes you can wait another 4 weeks and the heart will seal itself up. So unless you are buying a mature dog, you cannot have all the genetic testing done, hips, elbows, thyroid, cardiac, eye, dm, vWd, etc. There is something that the AKC will do, will add to pedigrees, and will require for Grand Champions I think, and that is CHIC program, I am not sure what all it requires. But a battery of health testing, recommended by breed that is done by the OFA. If you want to go that route, you can ensure both parents have what is available and recommended. But not the puppy. *
_Yes.

Also yes. I would likely start another LLC with all dogs owned by the LLC.

While never experiencing what you are describing, I don't think I would be "heart broken" to find a dog I loved couldn't be allowed to produce offspring. If I want to continue and improve the pure breed, then any problem should be bred out. Doesn't mean they wouldn't make a wonderful family member until it is their time to go.

BTW - I or my close family have taken in many rescues. The most recent was a beautiful GSD dumped on the road a few miles from where we are building, just a little over a year ago. She is such a sweet girl, probably 10 years old, and almost assuredly has DM. She has claimed my elderly father as her BFF and he will care for her until it is time to put her down. He calls her Lissel, but she is really an angel because he had to put down his long-time BFF (a rottie) a few months before that and we were worried about him.

Nope, I AM a PA, but not IN PA, but thank you. Retired military, back to school and now practice emergency medicine.

That is a great quote, but not sure I'm convinced of that. Understanding that I'm a newbie and while I respect (and agree with) the AKC's goal of maintaining/improving the breed, I think the proof of WHAT a dog is in the DOING. The title is the proving of the doing, but it is not THE doing.

Was watching a youtube video today about breeding GSDs. One breeder (maybe breeds/trains family protector dogs?) was saying how some GSDs, I think he referred to them as American Farm GSDs, are "ugly" (his term) because they might not have the greatest dentition or colors because they are bred to herd, and herd they do as they have that instinct, are extremely smart/high energy, with great endurance. Those dogs are DOING their proving, but might not be title winners. Just my newbie opinion.

I think my main goal would probably be family protection/pets/herding/tracking. Sure would be nice to have a dog that can track down all the deer my in-laws shoot but can't track down....

Okay, few more questions. Obviously the most important is health and temperament, but if my goal is as stated above, would I work to get her trained/titled as a GCG, and I see the AKC titles for herding and tracking.

I see there are 6 week courses for GCG. Are there classes for herding/tracking? Resources to teach me to teach her?? And is there an American title for protection?_

*I am guessing you mean the CGC Canine Good Citizen program? If not, correct me. The CGC is a good place to begin, but EVERY pet dog should be able to get a CGC. It isn't a test of breed-worthiness. For one thing, you can get your CGC at one location, on one day, given by the people who have worked with you to train the dog for several weeks. Whereas, even a rally title requires three legs, three runs, with at least two different judges, and if the judge was your training, they should escuse themselves from giving you a leg. They test different things. A rally novice is not that exciting, in that it doesn't really test the working ability or insticts of a dog, just the trainablity at the lowest level. The CGC tests different things, specifically the ability for someone other than the owner to handle the dog, and lots of shepherd owners have trouble getting their dogs through this. Lots of people do not need that for what they require or want their dogs to be able to manage. One person may feel they want the dog to have at least an RN and a CGC by the time the dog is a year old. Or not before the dog is 2 years. The CGC may be easy for a six month pup to pass and at 15 months that pup may not pass the test, because they may not want strangers to touch them on the head or ears or paws. They may no longer want to sit quietly with a stranger when the owner is out of the room. For all of that, all the CGC requires is that the dog is presented by the owner on one occasion and passes the test. What many breeders prefer is a CD on breeding stock or IPO -- that requires testing in all three, obedience, tracking and protection. Which is a more solid test of temperament and trainability for dogs. It may not be necessary. Once you know more, you can make those decisions on what you want to require of your dogs before breeding, but you have to explain to any potential customer that asks, how you determine whether your dogs are breedworthy. *


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## ChickiefromTN (Jun 16, 2020)

Let me tell you what I would expect from you as a buyer. The genetic and orthopedic testing of your dogs is a given. I also want to know what you know about the parents siblings, grandparents, etc. Do you personally know or have you seen work any of the dogs in the pedigree? What do you know about the pedigree and strengths and weaknesses of the dogs in it? Can you objectively describe the strengths and weaknesses of your dogs as far as conformation and working abilities? Even if you don't show conformation, do you know and can you describe the breed standard? What training challenges have you faced with your dogs? 

These are just some quick thoughts off the top of my head. How many dogs can you realistically keep in your home? If one or two wash out, when dogs start to age out of breeding, if you have to take a dog or two back over the years? Will you be comfortable rehoming an older dog that does not fit in your breeding program? Can you emotionally handle losing a litter due to sickness or disease? Or your female in whelp? Do you have an emergency vet close by? Do you have the ability to feed pups round the clock should something happen to your female during whelping? 

Just some of the hundreds of things to consider...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

selzer said:


> And a lot of genetic disease testing cannot be tested for until an animal is a year or even two years old.


Genetic testing can be done in utero. The genes are either there or not. Can't tell you if they are going to be turned on or not, but they are there in utero. And if they are there, they can be passed to offspring.



selzer said:


> The AKC is a registry, a pedigree service....
> But they can't possibly require genetic testing for each breed, specific to that breed.


As genetic testing continues to improve and become more easy I think they will be able to, and should, to prevent the passing on of known genetic problems.



selzer said:


> You cannot do the genetic testing prior to 8 weeks. Worthless. Not all testicles have dropped, the orthapedics are not complete. The heart may still have a hole in it, which can be still perfectly normal -- normally the heart is complete by 8 weeks, but sometimes you can wait another 4 weeks and the heart will seal itself up. So unless you are buying a mature dog, you cannot have all the genetic testing done, hips, elbows, thyroid, cardiac, eye, dm, vWd, etc.


Concur with the developmental issues which may or not be genetic, but the genetic testing is there for DM and I believe for VWD (at least there is for humans for some subtypes of VWD).



selzer said:


> What many breeders prefer is a CD on breeding stock or IPO -- that requires testing in all three, obedience, tracking and protection.


What is IPO? I can't seem to find that on the AKC website.



ChickiefromTN said:


> Let me tell you what I would expect from you as a buyer. The genetic and orthopedic testing of your dogs is a given. I also want to know what you know about the parents siblings, grandparents, etc. Do you personally know or have you seen work any of the dogs in the pedigree? What do you know about the pedigree and strengths and weaknesses of the dogs in it? Can you objectively describe the strengths and weaknesses of your dogs as far as conformation and working abilities? Even if you don't show conformation, do you know and can you describe the breed standard? What training challenges have you faced with your dogs?


Thanks. I presume I would be able to get the pedigree information from the seller, and would learn my dogs, etc.



ChickiefromTN said:


> hese are just some quick thoughts off the top of my head. How many dogs can you realistically keep in your home? If one or two wash out, when dogs start to age out of breeding, if you have to take a dog or two back over the years? Will you be comfortable rehoming an older dog that does not fit in your breeding program? Can you emotionally handle losing a litter due to sickness or disease? Or your female in whelp? Do you have an emergency vet close by? Do you have the ability to feed pups round the clock should something happen to your female during whelping?


We will have room for a LOT of dogs. Things change, but I think the sweet spot would be 6-8 dogs. We have accepted rescues/abandoned dogs and given them love & care until it was their time to be put down.

Life is full of losses, and while death is sad, it is no longer devastating to me. I've dealt with it for a long time.

As to round the clock feeding, would do what we needed to do. Hoping to retire (again) in a few years so that should help!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Ok so do I understand correctly…….you want the breeder of your possible breeding stock to do in utero genetic testing?

selzer is correct in saying you can’t clear Hip/Elbows until 2 years with OFA or Pennhip I believe at 16 weeks or older, neither can be done in utero. There is no genetic test for EPI as of yet, same goes for Hemangiosarcoma.

You have a very long ways to go for learning before breeding. The suggestion to going to clubs, watching the dogs, talking to owners and breeders, will be the best way for you to get your feet wet. I would NOT go to a club and tell them you’re there so you can learn to breed.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Saphire said:


> you want the breeder of your possible breeding stock to do in utero genetic testing?


Noooo...I'm saying GENETIC testing CAN be done in utero. Doesn't have to wait until 2 years old. We have done it with human babies for years, and the options are expanding.

I would expect to ask for GENETIC testing of a $2500 investment into a puppy to ensure no genetic traits for DM, etc. 

A quick google search found this test.









 German Shepherd Dog


German Shepherds are confident, courageous dogs with a keen sense of smell and notable intelligence. These are active working dogs who excel at many canine sports and tasks -- they are true utility dogs! Their versatility combined with their loyal companionship has them consistently listed as...




embarkvet.com





Is this unreasonable?



Saphire said:


> selzer is correct in saying you can’t clear Hip/Elbows until 2 years with OFA or Pennhip I believe at 16 weeks or older, neither can be done in utero.


Yes, as these are not (necessarily) genetic issues, or if they are there are no known good tests for them (yet).



Saphire said:


> ou have a very long ways to go for learning before breeding.


Yes.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Noooo...I'm saying GENETIC testing CAN be done in utero. Doesn't have to wait until 2 years old. We have done it with human babies for years, and the options are expanding.
> 
> I would expect to ask for GENETIC testing of a $2500 investment into a puppy to ensure no genetic traits for DM, etc.
> 
> ...


What you will get from a reputable breeder is, the Sire and Dam will have been tested for Hips/elbows, DM and eye certification possibly. The puppy itself will have had no genetic testing prior to going to your home. I don’t know if any repro vet that does in utero testing of any kind.
I did do embark on my dog but for the sole purpose of knowing the genetics for coat color and if the dog Carrie’s the coated gene. Linda Shaw and Joanne Fleming did not believe Embark was designed for other breeds aside from the Doberman.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Boatswain2PA said:


> I would expect to ask for GENETIC testing of a $2500 investment into a puppy to ensure no genetic traits for DM, etc.


Parents will have been tested prior to breeding if the breeder is doing their job. Hips and elbows cannot be done until the dog is pretty much grown, and HD has a clear environmental component so you need to do your part as well.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Again, I'm NOT saying inutero genetic testing.

I am just saying GENETIC testing can be done on puppies. Obviously the NON-genetic testing has to be done later.

Is it unreasonable to ask for an embark type test before buying a puppy to ensure nothing like a DM trait?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Again, I'm NOT saying inutero genetic testing.
> 
> I am just saying GENETIC testing can be done on puppies. Obviously the NON-genetic testing has to be done later.
> 
> Is it unreasonable to ask for an embark type test before buying a puppy to ensure nothing like a DM trait?


I’m sure a good breeder would do embark testing on a pup at your expense.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My best friend just bought a lovely GSD puppy (he’s 11 weeks today). His breeder had the litter tested for DM.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> My best friend just bought a lovely GSD puppy (he’s 11 weeks today). His breeder had the litter tested for DM.


Do you know the DM results of the Sire and Dam?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Is it unreasonable to ask for an embark type test before buying a puppy to ensure nothing like a DM trait?


With regards to DM, the need for testing would depend on the parents status.
Clear to clear can only produce clear.
Clear to carrier will produce clears and carriers.
Clear to at risk will produce all carriers.
I would need a really really good reason to be breeding any other combinations, or untested parents and personally wouldn't consider those litters at all. Especially for potential breeding stock.
A breeder intentionally producing at risk, or breeding with no testing would be immediately crossed off my list.
There has to be a stellar dog/pedigree there to make at risk breeding worth it at all!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Saphire said:


> Do you know the DM results of the Sire and Dam?


Yes. Sire is DM clear. Dam is a carrier. My friend’s puppy is a carrier. 

Sire is BIS BISS GV GCHG Gem-N-I River of URLoved CGC 

Dam is BISS GCH Windmill’s The Show Must Go On TC


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

And I believe that half of the litter were clears, and the others were carriers.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> And I believe that half of the litter were clears, and the others were carriers.


With that combination, there would be no “at risk” pups.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Saphire said:


> With that combination, there would be no “at risk” pups.


Exactly. The pet puppies will all be spayed and neutered (per contract). And the show puppy owners have the knowledge ahead of time.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Thank you for the lengthy response.
> 
> So, looking at it from another perspective, how DOES one slowly become a successful breeder?
> 
> ...


It would be extremely unusual to find a showline dog that could function well in any of the three pursuits you listed. So, I presume you wish to breed working dogs. If that is the case, you have a very long path ahead of you before anyone seeking a reputable breeder would consider your program. As you mentioned, you don't know what you don't know. You made a reference to the medical profession in one of your posts. If you put in the time and effort to become a neurosurgeon, how would you react if someone approached you and proposed beginning a career in the profession with a high school diploma? Classic "you don't know what you don't know". So proceeding with a very open mind and a great deal of humility would be a good way to begin. I would suggest perusing the old breeding posts where Wolfstraum, Carmspack and Cliffson, to name a few, get into in-depth discussion of pedigrees, breeding combinations, etc. These individuals are very serious hobby breeders who have spent decades carefully studying the breed and developing solid breeding programs. In addition to studying pedigrees, they actively trained their own dogs to gain an understanding of what is required of a good working dog and each of them was perpetually open to discussions with other knowledgeable individuals to discover the word of mouth information that is so difficult to acquire regarding health and temperament issues in the various lines of dogs. That is why experienced people on this board recommend finding a good breeder, putting in the time and effort to train a pup from that individual, expending additional time and effort in the study of pedigrees and then, once you have proven yourself to be serious about it, ask that breeder to mentor you in establishing a program. There are no shortcuts to achieving a top notch program and there are many heartaches along the way.

Best of luck.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Boatswain2PA said:


> If we got high-quality bloodlines with recent international champions, would we need to go through the hoops (have not researched those hoops yet, but I'm just not a dog-show type of person) to get them judged in order to produce great offspring? Of course it would help ensure the genes passed, but wouldn't actually do anything about the actual passing of the genes. Would likely send them for formal training (obedience, security, and possibly herding), so might get those qualifications.
> 
> Your thoughts??


The hoops are what distinguish one breeder from another. Anyone can build nice kennels, buy two GSD's from good lines, send them off for training, do some health testing and breed them. 

To go that route instead of immersing yourself into the world of GSD's by joining organizations like the USCA and GSDCA and then joining their regional clubs closest to you, actively participating in the training and trialing of your dogs, paying close attention to other GSD's and how yours stack up in comparison, seeking the advice and knowledge of established successful breeders, judges etc. (networking), learning about established bloodlines, not to mention being willing to wash a dog out of your breeding program if warranted no matter how much you like it, how much money you've spent on it or how far back it sets your program...those are just some of the signs of a good breeder. *Good breeders put in the time and go thru the hoops gladly and willingly, they don't take shortcuts. *


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)




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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

pam said:


> It would be extremely unusual to find a showline dog that could function well in any of the three pursuits you listed. So, I presume you wish to breed working dogs.


Yes, I expect so.


pam said:


> f you put in the time and effort to become a neurosurgeon, how would you react if someone approached you and proposed beginning a career in the profession with a high school diploma?


I don't expect to ever become the top breeder of GSDs in the nation. And I don't expect this to be a career. I am interested in getting involved in getting some outstanding dogs and if appropriate sharing those genes.




pam said:


> I would suggest perusing the old breeding posts where Wolfstraum, Carmspack and Cliffson, to name a few, get into in-depth discussion of pedigrees, breeding combinations, etc. These individuals are very serious hobby breeders who have spent decades carefully studying the breed and developing solid breeding programs


Thank you, will look into these.



pam said:


> There are no shortcuts to achieving a top notch program


Again, I don't expect to be a top-notch program. I like how you described those above as "very serious hobby breeders"....that would likely be more my goal. Of course, starting out with "simple hobby breeder" that doesn't want to screw up.



pam said:


> Best of luck.


Thanks!


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Bramble said:


>


Great video, thanks. I'm gonna regret staying up so late watching this tomorrow.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Something not mentioned yet, the GSD is the #2 ranked breed in registrations in AKC. So there is no lack of GSD puppies available, and there are many reputable breeders all across the country. If someone wants a puppy, they can easily find one, quality or not...

I have a local friend who got a male puppy a year ago. He's a nice pup, good pet, but not breeding quality. He came from a BYB in the area. She has done lots of training with him so far, and again, he's a nice pup. But his pedigree is a nightmare of lots of BYB, some American Show lines, some West German Show lines. Last summer they bought a female puppy from a different BYB. She's a nice enough puppy, but again a mishmash of lots of BYB, some American Showlines, a few West German Show lines and a little bit of working lines. No rhyme or reason in breeding in the pedigree. They have intentions of breeding the two together, when old enough and after checking hips... I've discussed things with her many times, but they just don't get it, and will probably breed them anyways. Their breeders don't provide them with any information or support. 

I used to never see another GSD locally. Now every time I turn around I see another one. There are several BYB's around my area now, and probably more popping up in the future. :-( The sad part is the pups being produced that come from non breed standard dogs. Breeding for pets is ruining the breeds.... There will always be pet prospect puppies in quality breedings. It takes a lot to learn about the breed, and to do everything right. There are no shortcuts, and the best experience is to train and title your dogs yourself, as well as have a good knowledgeable mentor.


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## indigoosh6 (Nov 26, 2021)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Newbie here sucking up your experiences. Thanks to all who share here.
> 
> We think we would like to become small-scale breeders with the option of becoming larger scale if we enjoy it and we reach the next stage of our life (full retirement). We have a relatively local breeder picked out to probably buy our GSDs from. They are a large, well-established breeder who also imports dogs from Germany, and appears not to be a problem getting ancestral lineages. They also show and train in several specialties.
> 
> ...


You just told me everything about me desire and aspirations
You seem to be a reflection of my self


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## JDNEK (Dec 8, 2021)

Boatswain2PA said:


> What is IPO? I can't seem to find that on the AKC website.


Forgive me, I thought I might weigh in on the conversation, as this one statement really amplifies the advice others have given here; IPO/IGP/Schutzhund is the standard for what defines a GSD. I know some might find that contentious, but, if we're talking about what the GSD was truly meant to be, the test really does define them, and to give you this invaluable insight, you truly need to join/visit a club. If we're honest, no health issue can be completely mitigated, so it can't be the ONLY criteria-but indeed, rock solid nerves are just as much a health issue, and extremely important. Please, definitely become a part of the Schutzhund [sorry, old-school] culture, so that you can really understand that magical bond of dog and man. It will inform your knowledge of breeding. And have fun!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Boatswain2PA said:


> What is IPO? I can't seem to find that on the AKC website


To be truthful, you don't know the first thing about working dogs, let alone what it takes to consider breeding a pair of dogs. You probably like the idea of a protective dog and the look of the GSD. That doesn't mean you understand any of it.

If you want to be yet another unscrupulous breeder of nerve bag dogs that can't actually do work, you just continue down the path of genetic testing being the most important thing. Temperament is what separates good dogs from bad. Health is important but it's the easier part of the equation. Read the breed standard and consider what it means. Everyone wants a healthy dog and we have a lot of that figured out. The art of breeding dogs comes down to temperament and drive. 

The only way to responsibly breed working dogs is to work dogs first so you have a clue as to what actually makes a good working dog. That's the very first baby step.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> The only way to responsibly breed working dogs is to work dogs first so you have a clue as to what actually makes a good working dog. That's the very first baby step.


Good luck with this. I threw up my hands when a person who has never trained or titled a dog in IGP argued with me on what training shows of the dog and then yammered about AKC standards with no mention of SV standards, asked if AKC had protection titles and then asked what IPO was. 

Bottom line to the OP - this is like anything else you do in life - talking only gets you so far. Go do it and learn. You didn't learn to practice emergency medicine by asking on an internet forum did you? You put the time into learning and practicing correctly under instructors and mentors. Doing it half way just makes those of us actually doing it angry and disgusted with zero respect for any of it. And when you do - you will have the answers to all of the above questions. Probably in the first week.


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## JDNEK (Dec 8, 2021)

David Winners said:


> To be truthful, you don't know the first thing about working dogs, let alone what it takes to consider breeding a pair of dogs. You probably like the idea of a protective dog and the look of the GSD. That doesn't mean you understand any of it.
> 
> If you want to be yet another unscrupulous breeder of nerve bag dogs that can't actually do work, you just continue down the path of genetic testing being the most important thing. Temperament is what separates good dogs from bad. Health is important but it's the easier part of the equation. Read the breed standard and consider what it means. Everyone wants a healthy dog and we have a lot of that figured out. The art of breeding dogs comes down to temperament and drive.
> 
> The only way to responsibly breed working dogs is to work dogs first so you have a clue as to what actually makes a good working dog. That's the very first baby step.


Did this guy leave the forum?? I really couldn't believe he was asking for advice on becoming a puppy mill. Most GSD's today are so far removed from the original vision, that the breeders who work so hard for conformity have to charge breathtaking prices, so he's thinking 'hmmmm, easy money!' Just makes me depressed.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> With regards to DM, the need for testing would depend on the parents status.
> Clear to clear can only produce clear.
> Clear to carrier will produce clears and carriers.
> Clear to at risk will produce all carriers.
> ...


In addition: carrier bred to carrier can produce: clear, carrier and affected


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