# YAY for Thor...BOO for Rogue



## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Last week at ob class, Thor did SO great. We finally found out how to get his attention...scare him! 
He was being really reactive and vicious to this little dog and the trainer and I were desperately trying to get his attention back on us. Treats, pulling his ear, poking him, blowing in his face, making loud idiotic noises, etc! Nothing worked, so Katie (trainer) hauled a chair over her shoulder and It went flying and bouncing acrossed the room. Thor immediately hunkered down and looked at the chair and back at her, yay, treats for Thor. So we used that technique when all others failed. I have since then created a bottle full of beans and shake it to get his attention when nothing else works. He stopped barking at other dogs, he loose leash walked, he laid down and became mellow in the middle of petsmart to avoid the sound of a stool being thrown around!
WOW I am so glad we have finally found how to get his attention. 

Now for Rogue! I have been doing "leave-it" training with both of them. Thor gets it right away but Rogue will jump up on me for ever until I just give up and put the treats away. 
If my son is eating she will knock him over to gobble up his food no matter how loud I am yelling at her to leave it while Thor just sits and watches all patiently. Now I need to physically hold her back or kennel her by herself if were eating and its a big ole shame cause then she feels left out and whines and cries until were done eating. Anyone have any tips on any different approaches for leave it training that may work better for Rogue? Thanks all. :apple:


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

There are much better ways of dealing with Thor's issues than throwing chairs! If you are paying a trainer who does and advocates this you are not just wasting your money , but messing up your dog.

Benny was reactive too and I was able to deal with that without throwing a chair. It just takes time, and consistent clear boundaries, help from a good trainer.

Here are links from this site that can help you with both Thor and Rogue

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ant-understand-become-better-pack-leader.html


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Thor was obsessing over the other dog and showing signs of aggression. We tried everything to break his attention. Throwing the chair was the only thing that worked. How long would you have let him obsess? Because prolonged obsession like that in shepherds produces aggression...NOT what I want. I dont think I am wasting my money and I trust my trainer. I agree that it is best to interrupt the obsession before it starts, but sometimes you cant step in before. An obsessed dog is a danger to himself and all others around him and if throwing a chair or shaking a bottle breaks the obsession...then I will do it. I am not going to wait around for a fight to break out or for him to obsess until he looses control because some other people think its cruel to make a loud enough noise to scare him out of his hold.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I wasn't there so I can't speak to what the scenario looked like, but it sounds to me like you have an insecure dog to start with.

Using the loud sounds etc to increase his insecurity (ie he shut down after he heard it) is really only setting him up to become MORE insecure.

Is your trainer positive only? What desensitization has been done, what command imprinting has been done and what proofing has been done on these commands?

Also, what level of correction has been used and what corrective collars have been used?

I am not saying your trainer is a bad trainer, but I can quickly see this method taking a turn for the worst. What happens when your boy becomes desensitized to the noise, then becomes aggressive towards the person or thing that is causing it? This is the first problem I see.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

N Smith said:


> I wasn't there so I can't speak to what the scenario looked like, but it sounds to me like you have an insecure dog to start with.
> 
> Using the loud sounds etc to increase his insecurity (ie he shut down after he heard it) is really only setting him up to become MORE insecure.
> 
> ...


We did not use a loud sound to increase his insecurity. There was no insecurity. There was obsession over meeting the other dog. When he barks and obsesses, he does not get to meet the other dog. We used the loud sound to break his stare AFTER all other methods failed. Also he did not shut down after the noise, he looked at the stool and then at the trainer for direction. She is positive only and trains with a clicker, we use a harness on him, chokes and prongs are not allowed. electric collars are not allowed. We train with treats and toys and praise only. Throwing stools (shaking cans of pennies) as i stated before is a worst case scenario method after weve exhausted all other ways to get his attention. I do not think he will become desensitized to the shaking or the clicker. I have been using the clicker for months and he is not desensitized to it yet. He only shows aggression/excitement when he is obsessing over meeting other dogs. Were trying to train him to be calm around other dogs and meet them quietly and appropriately.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

For awhile when I first got Sib I used a can with coins to get her attention--by her body language I could see it was fear then submission I was causing. so I stopped..That was 2 years ago ..A few weeks ago I thought I might try clicker training with her and found that also caused fear in her.. I don't know if one caused the other, but I gave up on the clicker training idea and threw away the can..She does not always do what I want, but I do not want to scare her like that. I'm not putting you down here, just sharing..No offense intended..jan (I had not used the can for over a year, just got around to tossing it the other day)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> We tried everything to break his attention. Throwing the chair was the only thing that worked. How long would you have let him obsess?


How about take the leash, walk away from the other dog, when he's distracted because he's leaving/walking away, then praise, then start again - _under_ his threshold. When his threshold is reached, there is no getting him back.

You work with him, praise him for ignoring, then gradually decrease the distance. When he's obsessing he's over his threshold for that specific thing.

Don't throw things. What if you don't have a chair handy? You're making the interactions with other dogs more negative, not less negative.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

How often did you use the can? Like, per day/per week? In what situations would you use it?


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

We tried walking him away like that and treating for ignoring for the firt 2 classes. Even after 2 hours of doing that he would come back in and be just as fixated. Also, there are other dogs walking around outside the class as well that got him riled up. So she tried the chair, and it worked. 
He didnt want her to throw the chair anymore, so he layed down and ignored the other dog. 
Some dogs just need other forms of training I think.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Don't throw things. What if you don't have a chair handy? You're making the interactions with other dogs more negative, not less negative.


Because I know we wont always have a chair is why I made the can of pennies. Thats something I can always be carrying around with me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree all dogs are different...but...throwing a chair!?
What is that teaching the dog? That he's next?
I can't understand any fear-based training being "good" for a dog.
And that's what this is - and he's reacting thusly - becoming fearful.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I can't know the specifics since I wasn't there, but this is not something I've ever heard of as being a positive way to get a dog's attention. 

Look up focus training on this forum. There are a lot of excellent videos to improve your dog's focus and attention. I believe Ellis/Leerburg/Balabanov have good training videos on focus work. 

I believe this kind of "attention getting" can do long term damage in terms of training/behavior. I think the dog is being startled and intimidated into paying attention. Eventually he will learn to associate these negative/fear-inducing reactions with whoever is holding said object (chair/coins/stick or whatever you use to intimidate a dog) and will become fear reactive to the person/object. What if someone goes to pick up and move a chair in your home? What will your dog do 2 months from now after getting training that chairs/coins/bottles equal getting surprised/startled.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

How would you get his attention in the situation? Did you read my last post? walking away doesnt bring him down, it diverts him. when we try to treat it, he spits out the treat and jumps around trying to get back in or starts barking at other dogs walking around. after he sniffs another dog he is completely fine, but were not letting him try to control the outcome by displaying his bad behavior.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd use a different collar, perhaps the Canny Collar. 
I'd start way under his threshold, don't stick another dog in his face yet.
Work on obedience until it's flawless and he'll listen to you no matter what.

The fact he's so out of control is an indication you don't have that strong training bond yet - he doesn't see you as leader or respect that you're leader.
He's used to being able to do his "own thing" so to speak and so you're nothing to listen to at this point.

Go back to the basics. Get his obedience down pat. Then start adding smaller distractions than other dogs.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

marinehoney said:


> How would you get his attention in the situation? Did you read my last post? walking away doesnt bring him down, it diverts him. when we try to treat it, he spits out the treat and jumps around trying to get back in or starts barking at other dogs walking around. after he sniffs another dog he is completely fine, but were not letting him try to control the outcome by displaying his bad behavior.


Once you have gotten to the point you can't get his attention, you have gone over threshold. You then get him out of the situation. You don't reward for it, just get him out. Let him settle, then begin again. Using scare tactics is going to create even MORE problems. Scaring him may start him associating new dogs with the fear. Trust me you don't want that to happen

Work on his focus from a distance, he maintains focus, reward, move closer, begin again. He acts out, you've gone to far, move back and start again. The ultimate reward is meeting the dog.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

marinehoney said:


> How often did you use the can? Like, per day/per week? In what situations would you use it?



I did not use it often--mostly to settle her when people came into the house or just to settle her in general..It only took maybe 5 times to where all I had to do was show her the can and her ears went down and she settled..Looking back, I am sorry I used it at all..She was young, still is, and I just need to work harder rather than beating my way into her..She is still really hyper when I get home from work, but my dad and I just give her a couple of minutes to settle down and that is fine for us..jan


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Put a prong on him and get someone qualified to teach you how to use it. No offense to your trainer, but I would have left the minute she threw a chair. A chair is not a training tool. Especially not for a puppy. Use tools used specifically for dog training to help modify his behavior. 

My rescue was hit before she came to me. She was also put in a garbage bag as a newborn and abandoned. To this day, she will shy away from a stranger that reaches out to pet her. If she so much as _hears _a garbage bag being taken out of the box, she will run to another room. I don't know if I can EVER break her of that so we just manage her fear reactivity. 

Fear is a powerful emotion that has long-term implications. It's your dog and your perogative on how you wish to handle his behavior. But I will tell you this: sometimes it's a good idea to listen to people with far more knowledge and experience with these type of situations. 
msvette2u has an incredible amount of knowledge with dogs, both health and behavior wise. She runs a rescue and has dealt with behavior issues. When she posts, I tend to listen. Even if I disagree with her, I try to see it from her POV and why she says what she says. 

I am just using her as an example, but this forum is full of people with far more experience than you or I. It's wise to listen to cautionary tales from people who have "been there, done that" rather than getting defensive about the situation. I doubt you will get too many supporters for your chair and coin bottle method.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Go back to the basics. Get his obedience down pat. Then start adding smaller distractions than other dogs.


Yes. This dog should not be in group classes yet imo. Too much, too soon!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW, I've used food when I train, but one of our dogs responds to a squeaky toy. I will admit I'm not sure how to use one in training - never have - but if your dog is ball-crazy or likes squeakie toys, go for it with that. 

They use toys many times in training drug and bomb detection dogs. Some are insanely ball-driven and that's what works for them. 

Although I've never done this either, I've heard it recommended (when training detection dogs) to feed their entire meal as "treats", so kibble-by-kibble they get their meal during the day while training.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> BTW, I've used food when I train, but one of our dogs responds to a squeaky toy. I will admit I'm not sure how to use one in training - never have - but if your dog is ball-crazy or likes squeakie toys, go for it with that.
> 
> They use toys many times in training drug and bomb detection dogs. Some are insanely ball-driven and that's what works for them.
> 
> Although I've never done this either, I've heard it recommended (when training detection dogs) to feed their entire meal as "treats", so kibble-by-kibble they get their meal during the day while training.


Yes to squeaky toys and balls!! The squeaky ball has been a lifesaver when I was to slow and missed Woolf's cue. He would refocus on the ball and once he made eye contact with me, rewarded him with treats and extra ball play once home.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

After doing more research and speaking with the trainer again, I see now that I am still right. Shaking a can of pennies is just like using a prong, choke, or electric collar. It is a correction! If used the wrong way, these methods will produce negative results. If used the right way and with care, these methods can be life savers! 
I will continue to use this method under the supervision of my trusted and respected trainer and I can clearly see that the arguement here was just a conflict of training methods and opinions. Thanks to everyone for their input. I always like hearing different perspectives.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Your trainer throws chairs. Of course she's going to say scaring the dog is an acceptable training method.
But, good luck either way.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Are you just NOT getting it??? There was a situation in which his attention NEEDED to be diverted! She was in between him and the other dog and couldnt walk over to get her bottle of beads. So she chucked a chair to get his attention. Its no different than a loud whistle, clap, scream, etc! 
This was NOT her usual method of training, we use clickers/treats/toys/praise. This was (again) a last case scenario...and it worked. 
I understand that youre too hard headed to admit that different things work for different dogs. I am sorry to you for your closed minded-ness. 
ALSO, popping a prong collar on Thor scares him too...


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

"I think we always need to be open to new training methods, even if we're "old timers" who think we know everything  "

and you JUST said this in another thread so...maybe you should be open minded to the can of pennies to get attention too.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Why wouldn't you just do some basic obedience with your dog before putting him into a group class? No offense, but if you can't even get your dogs attention to begin with, then what makes you think that putting him in an uncomfortable situation and then asking for attention is going to make a difference. You set him up for failure. Teach your dog how to focus on you before you start throwing chairs around to scare him into avoidance. Now every time he sees another dog in that class, he's going to expect a chair to be thrown, and I doubt that its a very pleasant experience at all. Wouldn't you rather have him learn to ignore the other dogs than anticipate something scary to happen every time he sees one?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

marinehoney said:


> "I think we always need to be open to new training methods, even if we're "old timers" who think we know everything  "
> 
> and you JUST said this in another thread so...maybe you should be open minded to the can of pennies to get attention too.


Can of pennies is one thing...Throwing things to scare the crap out of your dog is totally different.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Why wouldn't you just do some basic obedience with your dog before putting him into a group class? No offense, but if you can't even get your dogs attention to begin with, then what makes you think that putting him in an uncomfortable situation and then asking for attention is going to make a difference. *You set him up for failure.* *Teach your dog how to focus on you before you start throwing chairs around to scare him into avoidance.* Now every time he sees another dog in that class, he's going to expect a chair to be thrown, and I doubt that its a very pleasant experience at all. *Wouldn't you rather have him learn to ignore the other dogs than anticipate something scary to happen every time he sees one?*


Very well said. 

It's your dog, but I believe the consensus is that you are making a big mistake launching chairs across the room to get a dog's attention. I can get my dog's attention by putting my face an inch from his and screaming at him. Would I? **** no. What would that accomplish? I am concerned about how this dog will progress if this is the type of training he is exposed to... He's less than a year old, correct?

All I can say is best wishes to Thor and Rogue...
Do you have the male Rottie in your home now as well?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

marinehoney said:


> ALSO, popping a prong collar on Thor scares him too...


You haven't had this dog since he was a small pup, correct? You ended up taking him in when he was several months old? Who knows what he was exposed to before you got him...

Work through his issues with patience and find a good behaviorist/trainer... I find it hard to understand why a "trainer" would throw a chair in the middle of a class in front of other people/dogs in order to get a dog's attention.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

marinehoney said:


> "I think we always need to be open to new training methods, even if we're "old timers" who think we know everything  "
> 
> and you JUST said this in another thread so...maybe you should be open minded to the can of pennies to get attention too.


That's a very aversive method of training which I will not utilize - because of the number of "soft" dogs we work with. 
My "tool box" contains a lot of things but no cans of pennies.
The main thing is - you are teaching the dog _nothing_ by throwing or jangling a can of pennies.
What are you teaching the dog? Have you taught him to cope with his fear aggression or leash aggression? Or have you simply taught the dog that being around other dogs is very unpleasant?

I prefer to teach dogs something useful rather than scaring them into behaving.

PS. I give you all the credit in the world for attempting to train with these dogs, but if the consensus here is that the dog is learning nothing and you're simply scaring him as a short-term tactic to a potentially long-term problem, then you may want to rethink the style of training you're utilizing.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Very well said.
> 
> It's your dog, but I believe the consensus is that you are making a big mistake launching chairs across the room to get a dog's attention. I can get my dog's attention by putting my face an inch from his and screaming at him. Would I? **** no. What would that accomplish? I am concerned about how this dog will progress if this is the type of training he is exposed to... He's less than a year old, correct?
> 
> ...


No we never took the Rott in, I am thinking the owner was going to scam us in some way and when we asked if he would get a contract notorized he never contacted us again. I am not going to throw a chair to get his attention. This happened one time and then it dawned on us what is going to work for him (the pennies) he is less than a year old. I think he is going to do great. i stopped using the prong collar because he became more leash aggressive, if I see problems with the pennies I will stop that too. its all about learning what works for him and what wont. every dog is so different in motivation and personality. all rogue needs is a kiss sound to get her attention every time...thir just so happens to need something more extreme.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> You haven't had this dog since he was a small pup, correct? You ended up taking him in when he was several months old? Who knows what he was exposed to before you got him...
> 
> Work through his issues with patience and find a good behaviorist/trainer... I find it hard to understand why a "trainer" would throw a chair in the middle of a class in front of other people/dogs in order to get a dog's attention.


After she had left we were packing up and the people in the class were talking about it and how great she was because she wasnt afraid of what others thought. she got thors attention and pointed out what our next steps were. shes a great trainer and has no negative points about her to me or anyone ive talked to about her.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Also - taking my post not only _out of contex_t, but out of _another thread_, in which I was responding to something another member said, is not cool.

If you read that post in context you'll see penny cans are probably the last thing I'd ever use on any dog. 

At worst it'll make your dog completely psychotic and paranoid, at best he'll become sensitized to it, so either way it's a pointless and energy wasting exercise.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> That's a very aversive method of training which I will not utilize - because of the number of "soft" dogs we work with.
> My "tool box" contains a lot of things but no cans of pennies.
> The main thing is - you are teaching the dog _nothing_ by throwing or jangling a can of pennies.
> What are you teaching the dog? Have you taught him to cope with his fear aggression or leash aggression? Or have you simply taught the dog that being around other dogs is very unpleasant?
> ...


So everyone on this forum completely disagrees against shaking a can to get his attention? what the sam hill else am I supposed to do when he could care less about treats toys praise or anything else? i drag him out of the room...treat him for ignoring and walk him back in and he is just as fixated as he was before (and we kept at this from 2-4pm.....what would you do personally??


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Also - taking my post not only _out of contex_t, but out of _another thread_, in which I was responding to something another member said, is not cool.
> 
> If you read that post in context you'll see penny cans are probably the last thing I'd ever use on any dog.
> 
> At worst it'll make your dog completely psychotic and paranoid, at best he'll become sensitized to it, so either way it's a pointless and energy wasting exercise.


fair enough, but you have done this to me before too in multiple threads I have posted. so i guess were even.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Go back and re-read. We've all told you what we'd do personally and what you should do!

Get basic obedience down so when you're faced with another dog in his path, he looks at you and ignores the dog. 

You cannot do this at the class where other dogs are.

You must work on a flawless "look at me" and "come" and even "sit" which will transfer across to high stimulation areas.

Get those down, and when those are down pat and you can parade 100 dogs by him without him looking at them, then is the time for training in a class full of dogs.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Ok just moment! The throwing the chair is not the recommended training technique it was what she did b/c she feared an escalation to aggression. That is a correct statement right?Ok I would ask your trainer if your pup is ready for group classes maybe he needs to start smaller w/ fewer distractions I love the idea of a squeaky toy..Lucky likes to fence run when our neighbors are mowing so I grab a ball and whala he immediately is all about me and the ball.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> You cannot do this at the class where other dogs are.


Yes! You are setting him up for failure if you keep exposing him to overwhelming situations where he cannot control himself. 

99% of training is done by yourself with your dog at home. Class is to socialize, proof the behavior with distractions and to be exposed to new things. Class is more about teaching yourself how to teach so you can teach at home.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Ok just moment! The throwing the chair is not the recommended training technique it was what she did b/c she feared an escalation to aggression. That is a correct statement right?Ok I would ask your trainer if your pup is ready for group classes maybe he needs to start smaller w/ fewer distractions I love the idea of a squeaky toy..Lucky likes to fence run when our neighbors are mowing so I grab a ball and whala he immediately is all about me and the ball.


I agree. I will add that if I had my dog in a class and knew that my dog was nearing a dangerous threshold (that I couldn't stop) I would expect my trainer to jump in and do anything and everything to stop the action - even if it's stripping naked and doing the hokey pokey. 

Would I use the chair toss as a training tool...no. Would I use a can of pennies...no. But, honestly I've never had to. If I saw my dogs rising to a behavior that was going to result in a dangerous situation, I'd throw hubby across the room if I thought it would stop it.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

marinehoney said:


> *So everyone on this forum completely disagrees against shaking a can to get his attention?* what the sam hill else am I supposed to do when he could care less about treats toys praise or anything else? i drag him out of the room...treat him for ignoring and walk him back in and he is just as fixated as he was before (and we kept at this from 2-4pm.....what would you do personally??


Not one person said that it wouldn't work for him. We said throwing chairs isn't effective. If shaking pennies works, then fine. At least that is less dangerous that throwing furniture.

As myself and multiple others have already stated....You need to work on getting your dogs focus OUTSIDE OF CLASS, AT HOME where he is comfortable, before you ask him to do it anywhere else. Use your pennies if you absolutely need to, but I think you will find better results by just teaching him to 'look' or 'watch' when asked at home, and then gradually applying it to other scenarios rather than scaring him once he has already reacted to something. The latter is just setting him up for failure.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

while I don't particularly agree with chucking a chair, sounds like it may have been out of frustration by the trainer, as to exactly 'what' to do to break him out of his "zone".

Can of pennies, just like using a hand held throw chain, set of keys, koehler method I believe? It isn't killing him, and if it's working and your comfortable with it, do it , I say

It sounds like it's working, and again, it's not killing him, your happy with the results, maybe try shaking it at your girl when she is trying to nab food from your child..

While some may not agree with it, if it works for you and Thor, I say use it


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok guys, let me give you a glimpse into training with Thor. Rogue is different so I will leave her out. 
THOR has the bare basics of obedience down PAT at home. Inside and in the backyard even with neighbors dogs. 
HOWEVER, the whole reason I have him in ob classes is to socialize with other dogs and to learn how to do basic ob in those situations where there are people/dogs/noises/kids.
It is only when he gets in that situation that he doesnt listen to me (this is also when he rejects treats/toys/clicker/praise.
Katie (trainer) and alex (trainer) both assessed him and said its best to keep him in the class because he does need to learn ob in these situations as well. I need a dog who listens at home and away. 
Like a few others said, the chair was only a result of the escalating situation and I am glad she did whatever she could to step in (and we tried a LOT, before she chucked the chair)


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> while I don't particularly agree with chucking a chair, sounds like it may have been out of frustration by the trainer, as to exactly 'what' to do to break him out of his "zone".
> 
> Can of pennies, just like using a hand held throw chain, set of keys, koehler method I believe? It isn't killing him, and if it's working and your comfortable with it, do it , I say
> 
> ...


Thank you I completely agree.


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