# Classes & that puppy brain.......



## LuvourGSDs

Ok, well, is 19 months still a puppy! LOL
Anyway, at home training is good. Started up classes with Skyrah & well, she wants to lose her head & go do equipment of her choice. 8/ I then go to grab her & BAD me prob for doing that, but need advice on regaining her brain??? We have worked contacts at home way more than anything as I wanted to wait to jump her for growth plate purpose. She now wants to run to contacts & go do! In a class with others, I shut down as I feel a foul so, not sure how to get her on track? I 100% do not want to do any neg when doing agility. Some do say, no or try again, etc & not sure if that would be correct also if they do wrong or also up in the air if in class I should bring her back to redo jumps if she blows around them? Do not want to shut her down or something.

This is something that has shut my older gal down at shows, redoing equipment. 8/

Any advice? Thanks!


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## LuvourGSDs

Btw, her obed focus is great. She will watch me & wait for my release. It is not like she knows nothing. 8/

She is just like a kid in the candy store off lead in class. Do a jump or two, skip a few jumps & off to go to something we have trained with more. Granted, I know I need to work jumps more now!!!! Bad when trainer had to stand on end of teeter so she would not run up to do, but well, she stood up to put paws on it to get it down! We played the bang game. 8/ 
Thanks MRL, lol

Has been fun, but diff going from a seasoned agility dog. 8/

Help..... 8)


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## Elaine

You just started classes and you're upset that she WANTS to do contacts?! Thank your lucky stars! She's a beginner and is having a lot of fun trying to be correct: that is not wrong. If she skips a jump, stop, take her back, and have her do it. No big deal. Your dog is doing just fine; you need to loosen up and go with the flow or you will freak her out.

My own little demon spawn will go obstacle shopping if I'm just standing there talking to my instructor and, if he can get to it, he LOVES the teeter and will go back and forth on it, making it go up and down. I just laugh and watch him becoming more and more comfortable on the equipment.


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## martemchik

I just started agility as well. For a dog that has a few obedience titles on him, he really gets to me when he just starts playing around and not listening. But that's agility...its fun, its open, its free. I'm not afraid to tell him "no." But my dog doesn't shut down when he gets corrected and just realizes that he did something wrong. When it comes to a contact I usually say "uh uh" rather than "no" because its a less harsh correction to him.

If you know your dog will shut down, then yeah don't say it, but I think at a certain point you're going to have to start correcting those kinds of behaviors.


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## LuvourGSDs

Elaine, No, I am thrilled she loves to do & not afraid of them. 8) Just I need to regain her brain & she is blowing off my recall so I try to go grab her. Instructor says, don't go grab her. 
Just wanting advice on keeping her running with me & not off to try what she wants? 8/ Feel we look a foul in class as others are waiting on us. At home training, a whole diff story & one reason I wanted a class setting again before trying to trial. 8)


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## LuvourGSDs

Also, I have been real careful on corrections with agility, really none. I just try to redo till they get it, but mixed here as some do let their dogs know they did wrong....


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## wildo

LuvourGSDs said:


> Just wanting advice on keeping her running with me & not off to try what she wants?


My general thought on this matter (as in NOT directed to you, Jen) I would have a real issue with this personally, as I really can't stand it when dogs in class completely blow off their handler and do their own thing. It really kinda sucks for the rest of the people in class as they have to stand around waiting for the handler to collect their dog.

That said, I do have advice for you. Do you happen to own SG's "Success with One Jump" DVD? In there one of the first exercises she does is a recall to side/heel in front of a jump. The dog has to learn NOT to take the jump and rather recall. She also sets the dog up for a slice and then again recalls the dog passed the jump (she's on the same side). Here again, the dog needs to realize not to take the jump.

Notice I'm talking about jumps here. In my opinion, this is a training matter just like any other. What I mean is that if your dog is over stimulated by the contact equipment, then stop working the contact equipment. Grow the behavior on less stimulating obstacles like a jump first. THEN move over to the contact equipment.


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## martemchik

You know if she's blowing off your recall it is kind of an issue. Coming from someone that is in agility class with dogs that do blow off recall (but much younger than yours) to me its a huge waste of time. For you to stand there for a minute or two waiting for your dog to come back to you while its just running around does kind of get annoying. At that point its really not an agility thing, its an obedience thing and if I saw a 19 month old dog running around and not listening I'd be a little peeved in the class...

I'd seriously consider correcting at this point. It kind of depends on your dog's temperament but I don't know if a few corrections in order to get focus back will ruin her love of agility. Generally a quick correction and then just telling the dog to do the obstacle you want her to do should snap her out of any shut down she might feel. You want to keep it fun, but its should still be fun on YOUR terms. You also really don't want to be the person in the class wasting people's time that do want to learn. If you want her to have some fun on an agility course you might want to just look into renting out an area for a half hour or a full hour and letting her have her run at it. I know there are a couple of places around me that rent out a facility and equipment for like $10 a half hour.


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## LuvourGSDs

I feel the same guys, do NOT want to waste peoples time. 8( Totally why I asked. I have been in these peoples shoes & totally understand. We are all there to learn & train. Some dogs right on it, some not so. I just would love to regain that brain & I am a major manner, obed type person & this is why it is bugging me. 8( Love her love for wanting to do & hate to throw corrections in there, but want her by my side with me.

Thanks for all advice, hit me with it, no prob. 8)


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## wildo

You know, I was re-reading your original post and contemplating the use of corrections. One side of me thinks that _maybe_ a well timed correction could correct the behavior, but a majority side of me knows that that's BS- a "one time correction" rarely corrects behavior. And so I still don't think I'd use a correction here.

More so, I'd want to understand what the situation is where this is happening. Are you sequencing? Are you (and your classmates) all on the field doing a specific training exercise (like one jump work, perch work, teeter board work, etc)? My mindset is that when we walk onto that agility field, it's work time. Not screwing around time. Depending on the situation you're in- perhaps you can keep her leashed while the class is standing around listening to the instructor, and only take her off lead when it's time for you to do your thing. Then immediately on lead again once the task is complete. Of course, if you're sequencing and she's blowing your cues off in order to go visit an off course obstacle, then that's a different story (of which I _still_ think the solution is working in a lower stimulating sequence and _building_ the behavior).

If you can elaborate on the situation (sequencing, working individually on the field, etc) perhaps we can give more pointed advice.


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## wildo

BTW- if you're sequencing and she's visiting off course contacts, I'd wonder if the behavior is reproducible in OTHER (non agility) new environments. What if you take a travel plank to a park and do some contact work there. Does she blow off work to visit the travel plank? Surely this isn't *only* related to your agility training facility specifically, right? That's why I think you can grow the behavior elsewhere.


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## LuvourGSDs

Willy, I thank ya for your time, advice, & wishing to help. I need to also remind myself, this is new for her, been doing training at home plus still a pup somewhat. This is just class 4 with a new trainer. Learning way more in depth agility stuff than I ever was shown when I did take class a couple yrs ago with a old very green (imo) trainer.

Not make excuses, but just new to her (& I really) & diff than going to obed classes.

We are inside, nice open building, with turf. Lots of treats has been on the table & floor I'm sure at points as her nose got the best of her also last night. We do keep on lead till our turn & then back on lead. They have us working a few pieces of equipment. Last night was one or two jump lead outs standing in front of jump facing the dog, then trying to push toward another jump to tunnel, ect. I know I need to train, train, jumps now more with her. 

Agility or any dog related things you want to do with your dog is hard to find around here. I travel to go to this class. You ask in that area about Rally classes, etc & nothing. Just hard to find places anymore. Heck, Sch clubs are a nightmare to find!

Anyway, I know our recall needs work under high distractions for sure. I have done all R+ with her & do feel she has a soft side to a degree so, afraid on shutting her down, but do want her doing on my terms! This trainer did not want me to try to go grab her. She was not running zoomies all over, just to dog walk or stuff she has trained on more. 

On ph trying to type this so, harder to do so a bit. Hoping all makes sense.


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## martemchik

I don't really know how agility people do it but I made sure my dog's obedience was spot on before getting him fully into agility training. 19 months...not really a puppy anymore. By a year and a half you should be able to work the dog without getting that distracted. I kind of understand introducing agility equipment to your dog at a young age, but my current trainer has a 7 month old that she can't control and she takes some time after class to introduce equipment/do some jumping but when she takes her our during class the dog is way too distracted to concentrate and there is absolutely no recall so she really limits that time.

I know you said you've done obedience work and it seems that its just agility where your dog loses her mind, but why not throw in obedience exercises while you're on the agility field? Just simple ones...without obstacles being involved at first and then throw in obstacles.

Sorry the whole "she's only 19 months" is getting to me. My dog is 28 months and I don't let him get away with anything, and haven't since he was over a year old. If you keep throwing their age into it, the question is when does it end? By 19 months its kind of scary knowing your dog doesn't have solid recall, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad about your training but its just not safe at the end of the day. I think wildo had a great suggestion...keep her on leash. But I'd also focus a bit more on obedience.


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## wildo

Ha! Look at all those agility titles in your signature- I think you have to give yourself more credit than "Learning way more in depth agility stuff than I ever was shown[before]!" :rofl:

I agree with you on a lot of things you wrote- still a pup, nose gets the better of her, etc. I've taught Pimg how to work around food distractions and regularly work her with a plate of treats right in front of her face. Even still, last Thursday in class as I released her off the table her nose caught a treat someone dropped and she stopped to sniff... You know, they aren't robots and sometimes we (or me, at least) can forget that. However, seeing behavior like this DOES allow us to be conscious of it and make a plan to address. For Pimg, I'll be working on recalling her PASSED high value treats on the floor in front of her. Pushing her training of leaving food distractions.

If you're just doing basic jump sequencing where a dogwalk just happens to be 60 feet away in the facility and your pup (is this Skyrah?) just happens to be heading over there- then I guess I'd have to second the suggestion to rent the facility for 30mins or so and work some recall work. I do still think I'd do simple stimulation control-- work far enough away so that the dogwalk doesn't influence her recall. Then move 10' closer and try again, building up the ability to work right next to the DW.


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## LuvourGSDs

Thanks Willy! We try.... 8)

Yep, recalls off high distractions has been all my crews downfall & hard to train, esp with deer! I know more time & work needs done in that dept. If wasn't for agility equpiment & ruining fun in that dept, I would correct. This is a hard one for me as I want to, but do not want to bring neg with agility. Why asking here. 

I do not want a robot dog, but not one that blows me off to go do what she wishes either. That's why I am in agility, for FUN! I see so many at shows with it seems little obed skills, pulls owner on lead. Some like this, keeps the drive I guess. I prob ruined Skyrah's drive to a degree with since day one obed stuff, but I like a dog with manners.

Ok, not a pup, but been told these lines are slow to mature.


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## LuvourGSDs

Willy, btw, do not know all that technical stuff like you.


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## wildo

There was a thread just recently about CM getting bit by a dog and as usual it turned into a R+ vs Aversive training debate. Someone mentioned in there that "NOBODY" was willing to say how they'd correct the behavior without aversives. My opinion is that "somebody" just isn't interested in listening/reading what was written. I absolutely reject the thought that the only way to correct the problem you're seeing is through aversive conditioning.

Stimulation control is key, in my opinion. You would NEVER put a dog in a room full of cats and expect them to hold a stay without ever training it. Never. What you would do is work the dog in a very non-distracting environment (like your bathroom) on holding a stay with a small distraction, say, a treat thrown in their direction. Then you might increase the challenge by working in your living room where there are more things to investigate (like, your husband watching TV or something). Then you might work outside in the backyard. Then you might bring it back inside to the living room and add a singular cat walking by. Then you might head to a pet store where you can work in a new environment around a single cat. etc, etc, etc. It's about CONTROLLING the environment, controlling access to reinforcement. _THAT_ is how you train with clarity. You build behavior from small, easily repeatable criteria and add to your criteria once your dog shows understanding at least 80% of the time.

This is no different. The criteria is simple: "when on the agility field, you come in my direction when I call your name." You work well away from contact equipment and get 80% success. Then you move 10' closer and try again. If it proves to much, you simply collect your dog and move back a bit. Clearly the contacts were too stimulating. The nice thing about your issue is that you CAN use the contacts as a very high value reward. Get four of five really nice recalls far away under low stim, and then send to the contacts as a great reward.

Anyway, that's how I would do it. No aversives necessary.


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## LuvourGSDs

Thanks Willy. We train at obed class "on lead" with pretty high, many dog distractions, many newbie people & she has done wonderful there. Holds her down stays, etc. Just so bummed she has turned in a dog in a candy store at agility class. 8/


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## martemchik

Not sure if you could've done anything to her drive...it was probably like that from the get go, I've never seen obedience really kill drive unless you're really hardcore in the aversion methods and more pet than working training. I'm assuming she's just always been the way she is. If you have noticed that a correction tends to shut her down a little, its just her, nothing you did previously.

I was a little weary commenting on this thread after seeing all the agility titles behind your first dog's name as well...not sure why you're not more confident. You're definitely more qualified to comment on any agility stuff than I am! But I do like obedience, and the recall is the number one command I do not give any leeway on. Trust me...I'm having the same issues as you are when it comes to agility. It's way more fun than obedience and I can definitely see much less focus during agility class than while doing obedience.

Another idea I have for you is playing tug. Does your dog love a certain toy? A ball maybe? Just always have it on you...as a reward but also as a way to get your dog under control and to you. I know once I take out my boy's favorite tug he's charging at me at full speed and I get ultimate focus. I use it as a reward for something great or difficult...like completing 6 weaves in a row. If he's distracted at a dog park, I pull that thing out, and he's right in front of me waiting to play.

She looks like a beautiful working dog though, I think you'll definitely get through this and get even more titles than that first dog has.


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## LuvourGSDs

martemchik said:


> Not sure if you could've done anything to her drive...it was probably like that from the get go, I've never seen obedience really kill drive unless you're really hardcore in the aversion methods and more pet than working training. I'm assuming she's just always been the way she is. If you have noticed that a correction tends to shut her down a little, its just her, nothing you did previously.
> 
> I was a little weary commenting on this thread after seeing all the agility titles behind your first dog's name as well...not sure why you're not more confident. You're definitely more qualified to comment on any agility stuff than I am! But I do like obedience, and the recall is the number one command I do not give any leeway on. Trust me...I'm having the same issues as you are when it comes to agility. It's way more fun than obedience and I can definitely see much less focus during agility class than while doing obedience.
> 
> Another idea I have for you is playing tug. Does your dog love a certain toy? A ball maybe? Just always have it on you...as a reward but also as a way to get your dog under control and to you. I know once I take out my boy's favorite tug he's charging at me at full speed and I get ultimate focus. I use it as a reward for something great or difficult...like completing 6 weaves in a row. If he's distracted at a dog park, I pull that thing out, and he's right in front of me waiting to play.
> 
> She looks like a beautiful working dog though, I think you'll definitely get through this and get even more titles than that first dog has.


I will post later to this via computer. I now have lost 2 long a** replies via my phone! Errrrrr


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## Elaine

LuvourGSDs said:


> Yep, recalls off high distractions has been all my crews downfall & hard to train, esp with deer! I know more time & work needs done in that dept. If wasn't for agility equpiment & ruining fun in that dept, I would correct. This is a hard one for me as I want to, but do not want to bring neg with agility. Why asking here.
> 
> I do not want a robot dog, but not one that blows me off to go do what she wishes either. That's why I am in agility, for FUN! I see so many at shows with it seems little obed skills, pulls owner on lead. Some like this, keeps the drive I guess. I prob ruined Skyrah's drive to a degree with since day one obed stuff, but I like a dog with manners.
> 
> Ok, not a pup, but been told these lines are slow to mature.


There's very few people that could call their dog off a deer, but that's not what you need to do. There's no reason not to correct your dog for blowing you off on a recall when you call her like you mean it. The trick is to be very sure to praise her immediately and then repeat the situation so she has success so you can praise her again for doing it correctly. 

Also, there's a difference between an obedience recall and your dog making a mistake while running and not listening to you. This is when you have to decide if it was your fault by not telling her what to do correctly and in a timely fashion - this is usually the case - or was she actually giving you the finger - this I would go and correct - or was she just new and went a little crazy so made a mistake - this I would just go get her and repeat the exercise.

My dogs have been doing obedience from day one and have a very high level of competency in it; they also have manners. That said, I do let them drag me around at agility because I want them to have fun, but they do listen when I put my foot down. Agility is like taking a kid to the playground where they get to let loose and let it all hang out within limits.

The lines are slow to mature is an excuse for not expecting your dog to behave.


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## wildo

Elaine said:


> The lines are slow to mature is an excuse for not expecting your dog to behave.


Hey I agree with Elaine on this!  :rofl:

It is my understanding that this phrase, "slow to mature" is ONLY applicable to bite work in protection. That is the source and usage. There have been a couple threads about this.


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## LuvourGSDs

Elaine said:


> There's very few people that could call their dog off a deer, but that's not what you need to do. There's no reason not to correct your dog for blowing you off on a recall when you call her like you mean it. The trick is to be very sure to praise her immediately and then repeat the situation so she has success so you can praise her again for doing it correctly.
> 
> Also, there's a difference between an obedience recall and your dog making a mistake while running and not listening to you. This is when you have to decide if it was your fault by not telling her what to do correctly and in a timely fashion - this is usually the case - or was she actually giving you the finger - this I would go and correct - or was she just new and went a little crazy so made a mistake - this I would just go get her and repeat the exercise.
> 
> My dogs have been doing obedience from day one and have a very high level of competency in it; they also have manners. That said, I do let them drag me around at agility because I want them to have fun, but they do listen when I put my foot down. Agility is like taking a kid to the playground where they get to let loose and let it all hang out within limits.
> 
> The lines are slow to mature is an excuse for not expecting your dog to behave.


Thanks!!!!!!!!

Few quick things. She has a head, well, lol, but really her focus has been great. Love this girl! Just wanting to gain that brain & guess worry too much about corrections. I just have seen it done with other people, old class I was at & dogs did just to do & was not fun to them nor were they happy dogs.

With my older girl. I have had show issues with redoing stuff, like if she goes around a jump & this is a no, no for her, I shut her down. 

Anyway, I do want her to know right from wrong, but I guess not sure how to go about it b/c do not want to take the fun out of it. 

The trainer did not want me walking up to her to grab her either. I guess thinking this may shut her down, not sure why she did not want me to do? Should have asked.

Tugging & bite work she loves! I do take tugs to class, but still training with treats as I just felt cannot throw my toy around in a class setting as I do at home. 8/

Thanks all SO much again.


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## Elaine

With all your talk of your dog shutting down over just a correction is concerning. The fact that your trainer doesn't want you to grab her to correct her is also concerning. Is this because your dog is overly sensitive? You give poor corrections? Or is it that giving the correction is inappropriate?Or do you have a stupid trainer?You need to ask your trainer about this because we can't see what's really going on.

No reason not to use a tug in class if that's what gets your dog going. You don't have to throw it, just tease him with it and play tuggie.You can also toss it directly to him to catch to reward him in place. I work exclusively with a ball with my older dog and only with food with my little demon spawn because the ball makes him lose his mind and he won't leave me. I look forward to the day when I can use the ball in agility on the little guy because it's so much easier to use.


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## LuvourGSDs

Elaine said:


> With all your talk of your dog shutting down over just a correction is concerning. The fact that your trainer doesn't want you to grab her to correct her is also concerning. Is this because your dog is overly sensitive? You give poor corrections? Or is it that giving the correction is inappropriate?Or do you have a stupid trainer?You need to ask your trainer about this because we can't see what's really going on.
> 
> No reason not to use a tug in class if that's what gets your dog going. You don't have to throw it, just tease him with it and play tuggie.You can also toss it directly to him to catch to reward him in place. I work exclusively with a ball with my older dog and only with food with my little demon spawn because the ball makes him lose his mind and he won't leave me. I look forward to the day when I can use the ball in agility on the little guy because it's so much easier to use.


No, not this dog thread is about shutting down. Not sure why this new trainer did not want me to go get or try to grab her? My thought was did not wanting me to shut her down or cause any neg, but to lure her with the food instead? Just my guess. I need to ask. Trainers are good & best a teaching skills imo. They have been to world. I just feel, sure I can train all day here at home, but as I seen, alittle diff story not at home, plus I am seeking handling help. 8/

I use "Here" for my recalls agility & norm stuff wise. My "Come" I expect a front sit & only really use this when working obed.


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## LuvourGSDs

Sorry, was thinking you meant my older dog shutting down at a show.

I have seen dogs shut down when they make mistakes or you try over & over with them. 8/ I have seen it in my own dogs. They do not like to make mistakes & when corrected, may just shut down. Thus why I have been up in the air about correcting while doing agility & why I asked about engaging with her again when she does her own thing without a correction????? I would love to say, "NO or ATT" when she did wrong, but have just feared any neg while training in agility. Even been mixed about saying, "OPPS or TRY AGAIN". So far I just have been redoing till they got it & then Click, verbal, YES & treats or toy.


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## martemchik

My instructor won't let the dog fail more than twice. After the 2nd time we either put a leash on, or break the sequence up if that's what we were working on. If you or your trainer don't believe in "any" negative association during training because of your dog or the way they train I really don't have much more advice. I've never worried about correcting, or at least verbally letting my dog know he's doing something incorrect and I don't worry about a "no" breaking his confidence when on an agility course.


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## Elaine

LuvourGSDs said:


> Sorry, was thinking you meant my older dog shutting down at a show.
> 
> I have seen dogs shut down when they make mistakes or you try over & over with them. 8/ I have seen it in my own dogs. They do not like to make mistakes & when corrected, may just shut down. Thus why I have been up in the air about correcting while doing agility & why I asked about engaging with her again when she does her own thing without a correction????? I would love to say, "NO or ATT" when she did wrong, but have just feared any neg while training in agility. Even been mixed about saying, "OPPS or TRY AGAIN". So far I just have been redoing till they got it & then Click, verbal, YES & treats or toy.


If this dog doesn't have a shutting down problem, then don't worry about it. There are a lot of dogs that can't handle any sort of correction and that's their problem, not yours.

The concept of no negativity in agility training is total and complete nonsense so long as it's appropriate. This is why you see some dogs at trial that are completely out of control.

You have to do what your dog needs and not what other people's dogs need.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Wow! so much information and help from everyone so sorry if I repeat...

I would NOT use corrections unless there was death or mayhem with injuries about to come about. Your dog is still really young and having gone thru GloryB just really maturing this year at THREE, know to be careful in training....

You've just started up in this new fun class with new dogs/people/equipment, right? So alot of what you are seeing may just fade away over the next few weeks when she realizes that the game is the same, just the locale is changed. Won't be so much fun to dart off and away to do a contact when she realizes THAT won't give a treat/reward, but sticking near mom and doing what she asks does!

I'd DEFINITELY have the tug toy on me at all times (I keep mine tucked in the back of my pants) not to throw away but to draw the dog back in for a rousing game of tug WITH you. 

Make sure your pup is hungry.

Make sure you are using REAL treats. The chicken, beef, cheese, special stuff that only comes from you and only in class.

Do you have those short training tabs you can put on the collar so it's easy to grab and keep on your dog but not as in the way as a regular long leash?

Think I'd really work more on managing the situation and coming up with smart ways to better handle your dog. Sound like you are doing SUCH a great job with the joy for the sport and motivation... so hate to see that get affected with corrections for 'bad' rather than the pup trying to think and earn the rewards for being 'good'. 

You using a clicker? May want to take it out and use it frequently for awhile to get your pup back involved in learning and focused on you.

If you respect your instructor and how their dogs are behaving, definitely ask for their suggestions. You may feel embarrassed or think you are wasting everyones time, but it may not be nearly as bad as you think. Plus there may be things you can do, or ways the class can be structured, so everyone can all work on their own issues at the same time.


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## wildo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> If you respect your instructor and how their dogs are behaving, definitely ask for their suggestions. You may feel embarrassed or think you are wasting everyones time, but it may not be nearly as bad as you think.


I agree with this. I ask countless questions at class. Very few of my classmates (with any of the three instructors I've had now) have asked questions. I don't consider it wasting time at all. In fact, I don't really understand how they don't have questions or don't ask them. You should always be able to ask your instructor questions!


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## LuvourGSDs

LuvourGSDs said:


> I will post later to this via computer. I now have lost 2 long a** replies via my phone! Errrrrr





MaggieRoseLee said:


> Wow! so much information and help from everyone so sorry if I repeat...
> 
> I would NOT use corrections unless there was death or mayhem with injuries about to come about. Your dog is still really young and having gone thru GloryB just really maturing this year at THREE, know to be careful in training....
> 
> You've just started up in this new fun class with new dogs/people/equipment, right? So alot of what you are seeing may just fade away over the next few weeks when she realizes that the game is the same, just the locale is changed. Won't be so much fun to dart off and away to do a contact when she realizes THAT won't give a treat/reward, but sticking near mom and doing what she asks does!
> 
> I'd DEFINITELY have the tug toy on me at all times (I keep mine tucked in the back of my pants) not to throw away but to draw the dog back in for a rousing game of tug WITH you.
> 
> Make sure your pup is hungry.
> 
> Make sure you are using REAL treats. The chicken, beef, cheese, special stuff that only comes from you and only in class.
> 
> Do you have those short training tabs you can put on the collar so it's easy to grab and keep on your dog but not as in the way as a regular long leash?
> 
> Think I'd really work more on managing the situation and coming up with smart ways to better handle your dog. Sound like you are doing SUCH a great job with the joy for the sport and motivation... so hate to see that get affected with corrections for 'bad' rather than the pup trying to think and earn the rewards for being 'good'.
> 
> You using a clicker? May want to take it out and use it frequently for awhile to get your pup back involved in learning and focused on you.
> 
> If you respect your instructor and how their dogs are behaving, definitely ask for their suggestions. You may feel embarrassed or think you are wasting everyones time, but it may not be nearly as bad as you think. Plus there may be things you can do, or ways the class can be structured, so everyone can all work on their own issues at the same time.


Well girl, thank god you seen, read, & replied!!!!! Was gonna hint to you in one of these posts. I have not done corrections b/c I think of you & your videos of training methods. Do you use any form of, opps, try again, or anything with either of your girls? I did have 1 trainer out of 3 here say, do say something so they get they did wrong. Skyrah is not what I would call a hard dog. She does not like if you do get at her so, a soft side to a degree. For this reason, have not wanted to shut her fun down. 

I have done all you mentioned above, but use the clicker at class or whip out that tug enough. I train so a bit diff around a group also. 8/ 

I know all so new. Just hoping we gain that team partnership. She just goes agility contact A.D.D on me, HA!
Did you see me sayin, trainer holding down one end of teeter while Skyrah up on hind legs tryin to pull other end down. Oh lord, people in that class & trainer just shook their heads & laughed! 

I hope & pray I gain that brain, that brain that earned her CGC at 15 months old. She has it in her focus & control wise, she has just lost it to a degree in this class. 8/

Thanks again MLR for your advice & all that has taken the time to reply. 8)


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## MaggieRoseLee

For agility, I just really don't like anything that is looked at as a 'correction' around the equipment unless it's really a life or death/safety issue (like dog keeps tearing off to visit White Fang the killer dog in class).

So especially for my younger dogs, I really work on my timing and figuring how I can get my pup to do something RIGHT so I can mark it and reward. The clicker really really helps me because it improves my timing and makes class/learning much clearer in the learning phases. For learning new and harder things like proper equipment (2on/2off) performance or wrapping around a jump or getting the entry (or exit) on the weave poles.

It seems to help if I start of with TONS of marking/rewards when initially starting classes (hungry dog with REAL treats) so my dog is learning the rewards only come from me, they come fast enough before my dog gets bored and looks for their own fun (running off an across the room suddenly also helps with this  ) , and I ignore and do NOT treat/reward for all the crap they may offer that I do not want. 

Other big help for boredom is not standing around the entire hour with my leashed dog connected to me, and brief bouts on the equipment. I take a crate to class and if I am not working with my dog, she is crated.

This is a massive help (hey, I did this before Susan Garrett's crate games!) because they learn to chill and relax when it is not their turn, and I am SO much more able to pay attention and learn from the other dogs/handlers/instructor when my dog is put away. I don't even stand near the crate most of the time (sometimes have to cover it with a blanket if they choose to not chill  ).

When it is near our turn it's all WHOOHOO *WE* are on our way! So whether I release the beast and we tug to where we start, or just milk out treats from my fist as we go to where we need to go in the room (reward for staying right with me). All happy happy fun fun fun when we are 'working' and then I put them away when we are done. 

This is a huge help to make it clearer WHEN we are working (and they need to pay attention) and not. Plus they are more excited about me ( I just released them) what I've got (treat/toy) cause they were just a bit bored in the crate, and 'the job' is more fun cause they are in the right mindset!

We have to remember, that because agility is ultimately and OFF leash activity we want our dogs to tear around doing joyously taking direction from us............ a ton of 'agility' is just our dogs learning to look/listen/get direction from us cause they WANT to. When we slide down the slippery slope of they *HAVE* to do stuff on an agility course this adds the stress and nonjoyous behaviors that are almost impossible to break later.

I really do recommend those short training tabs you can just leave on your dogs collar in class and when they are in the crate. Sometimes it's nice to have a bit of a handle to hold but then you can just drop it and quickly move on with out having to fumble and futz and waste time with a regular leash.

Leerburg has one I like that you can attach a leash to (or not). Leerburg | Leather Pull Tab


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## LuvourGSDs

Thanks again MLR. 8)

That's where is sucks, I have done so much focus work with her & her focus is awesome. All goodies have came from me. Sucks b/c when turned loose her focus or direction has went right out the window at class. She wants to go play on the things we have trained more at home. She has a great 2o2o. 8)

I started her up in classes b/c mainly wanted to see where we were at away from home training before we showed as I hoped not to get a A.D.D. dog out on a course at a show. Was planning on showing her come later spring. She will be 2 by then. 

I hope through this winter to also do some building renting time to try to gain that "wanna do, do, do" brain. I love she so loves, do not want to kill that, but part of me also feels like I am a bad person for not getting at her for her silly things. Like people stated here to correct. I say, no to that, but feel I have a unfocused dog, when her obed focus is great. She is just losing it in class. 8/

On tabs, got them. I worried there about them knocking the bar or just hanging down. You sayin, take it on & off like a lead? Me, I would just leave on. 

Why do you think this trainer did not want me to go grab her when she was doin her thing? I did not think anything of it when I go grab her, but since told not to, thinkin b/c sends neg to the dog? I will ask trainer on this.

Also, you have never gave any kind of a word that they did not do correct, like opps, etc? A non harsh word?

Thanks so much again!


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## MaggieRoseLee

LuvourGSDs said:


> Thanks again MLR. 8)
> 
> I started her up in classes b/c mainly wanted to see where we were at away from home training before we showed as I hoped not to get a A.D.D. dog out on a course at a show. Was planning on showing her come later spring. She will be 2 by then.
> 
> On tabs, got them. I worried there about them knocking the bar or just hanging down. You sayin, take it on & off like a lead? Me, *I would just leave on. *
> 
> Why do you think this trainer did not want me to go grab her when she was doin her thing? I did not think anything of it when I go grab her, but since told not to, thinkin b/c sends neg to the dog? I will ask trainer on this.
> 
> Also, you have never gave any kind of a word that they did not do correct, like opps, etc? A non harsh word?
> 
> Thanks so much again!


The reason I recommend group classes is because of EXACTLY the situation you are seeing. My perfect dogs in my yard/home seem to lose their minds and go deaf in other situations! Since trials are more similar to classes, it help me to work through the issues in class so they are less at trials.

I WOULD leave the tab on in class. Have to be careful and pay attention but I've never had the tab catch on anything.

The reason I like the tab is I could quickly go over to get my dog and take the tab but just more of a management (now I've go you  ) type of thing to get the attention back to me and not whatever seemed more interesting. I also think that grabbing the tab to hold them and redirect is less 'traumatic' than when I have to grab the collar and maybe get some fur at the same time. I want to be clear I don't want something, but I don't need it to be an actual forceful thing.

IF my dog keeps leaving to go over to play with *another dog*, that is not AGILITY to me, so I would possibly be a bit more strict/negative about that with a *'leave it'*. (though sometimes if I just can step between the 2 dogs and split them up it gets the point across too) Leaving me to go play with another dog isn't right for agility or life so needs to be addressed. Immediately after this 'leave it' though I'd get into some kind of behavior to click/reward to reinforce the I AM THE MOST FUN THING IN THE ROOM (or use the tug toy).

I do have a word like 'oops' but use a neutral tone with that and then immediately I have to think to figure out how to make sure she does it right then next time. Setting them up to succeed but I need to have them keep wanting to try (and try and try). So breaking things down to make them easier and smaller pieces is important.

Some of this will just get better with time and your consistancy. These smart dogs want to try to get away with new things they make up that MAY make you happy and earn a reward (whether from you or just that it makes them happy without you :wild: ). So the 'bad' behaviors will start to extinguish on their own when you don't reward them but only things that you are a part of....

:laugh:


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## LuvourGSDs

LOL, I am praying so! Smart girlie she is! I think this new trainer thought we have done no focus work since my dog was a goof. Told me to put on lead, walk around, & try to get her to watch & treat, lol, gotz it. She took her from me & seen that, said, smart girl. Well, focus off lead with BIG distractions, well...... 8/
Will keep ya posted!


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## LuvourGSDs

Woo, well this week went much better. No tab used, but lots of treats & tug here in there. She was rather distracted by zoomie dogs as class was spit into two & dogs on the other side would get her attention. 8/ Darn GSDs & that prey drive, lol Cannot wait to fully connect as a team. 8)


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## MaggieRoseLee

LuvourGSDs said:


> Woo, well this week went much better. No tab used, but lots of treats & tug here in there. She was rather distracted by zoomie dogs as class was spit into two & dogs on the other side would get her attention. 8/ Darn GSDs & that prey drive, lol Cannot wait to fully connect as a team. 8)


I think if you are consistant and keep up with the hungry dog/yummy treats, game is still the same when in any new place.......... you'll see improvements every week. 

Keep up the good work! :wub:


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## LuvourGSDs

Thanks. Paws crossed. Her thing now is, a few times she went running over to other dogs, errr, bad girlie. She wants to go check them out, but, as I know, not all dogs are fond of this & gonna get her in trouble. 8/ She will sometimes focus on them if they are havin more excitement & running when we are split into 2 groups. I know I need to work on that engagement during them times, but can be hard at times. 8/

I am pretty consistant & have always tried to stick by that method. 8) Sure helps!


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## martemchik

LuvourGSDs said:


> Thanks. Paws crossed. Her thing now is, a few times she went running over to other dogs, errr, bad girlie. She wants to go check them out, but, as I know, not all dogs are fond of this & gonna get her in trouble. 8/ She will sometimes focus on them if they are havin more excitement & running when we are split into 2 groups. I know I need to work on that engagement during them times, but can be hard at times. 8/
> 
> I am pretty consistant & have always tried to stick by that method. 8) Sure helps!


I'm really surprised at your trainer and class. Allowing dogs off lead that aren't in full control and can run over to other dogs? That is crazy. If I was the other owner I'd be livid! A huge GSD is running over to my dog while I'm trying to work with my dog. This is not only dangerous, its distracting for the other dog. In my opinion it is way too early to split them into two groups in order to "simulate" the show environment. These are green dogs that need to be working on focus, not getting more distractions thrown at them.

How big is your class? As great as your trainer is, if this class has any more than 8 dogs in it I don't see what the point is. Agility should be a one dog at a time thing, maybe different dogs can work different obstacles but they have to be kept under control. In my class we have 4 dogs. We go into the "ring" one at a time and try to run the course, work an obstacle a few times that we're having trouble with, and then give the next dog a turn. All 4 dogs are green, and "lose their mind" when they're running the course, so its not beneficial to anyone to have more than one in there at a time.

I'm sorry if I sound condescending, but knowing your dog is having these issues, and allowing it to run up to another dog, is just plain wrong, on your part but mainly on your trainer's part. I have a GSD as well...but unless I knew you and your dog, I'd be really pissed if your dog ran up to mine while I was working.


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## LuvourGSDs

martemchik said:


> I'm really surprised at your trainer and class. Allowing dogs off lead that aren't in full control and can run over to other dogs? That is crazy. If I was the other owner I'd be livid! A huge GSD is running over to my dog while I'm trying to work with my dog. This is not only dangerous, its distracting for the other dog. In my opinion it is way too early to split them into two groups in order to "simulate" the show environment. These are green dogs that need to be working on focus, not getting more distractions thrown at them.
> 
> How big is your class? As great as your trainer is, if this class has any more than 8 dogs in it I don't see what the point is. Agility should be a one dog at a time thing, maybe different dogs can work different obstacles but they have to be kept under control. In my class we have 4 dogs. We go into the "ring" one at a time and try to run the course, work an obstacle a few times that we're having trouble with, and then give the next dog a turn. All 4 dogs are green, and "lose their mind" when they're running the course, so its not beneficial to anyone to have more than one in there at a time.
> 
> I'm sorry if I sound condescending, but knowing your dog is having these issues, and allowing it to run up to another dog, is just plain wrong, on your part but mainly on your trainer's part. I have a GSD as well...but unless I knew you and your dog, I'd be really pissed if your dog ran up to mine while I was working.


Yes, I understand your concern & that is an issue I would like to stop/prevent! Not sure why or what her deal is other than wanting to go check them out? She has been in classes (obed) since 13 wks & still to this day obed wise & we have playtime in there. While working in there, which is not running around, she is super focused & does not move if in a down/stay, etc.

This agility class is around 6-7 dogs & handlers with 2 trainers & we split up into 2 groups & rotate so, all on the course, but half on one side. She is not always darting, but does at times. Not sure if herding deal or what. I have been working on her focus in this kind of class setting. I know when she left me Mon at class, I downed her from across the room & she did just wonderful for me & I walked up to clip her back up. She has a brain & can be super focused when she wants. I know a couple of my older GSDs would not be fond of a dog running up to them so, I understand we need to work on this. 

She is just a happy friendly young adult female. 8/ My goal with her was to socialize her around other breeds as much as possible, granted, she has played with way more GSDs.

Ok, thanks for your opinion once again.


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## LuvourGSDs

Btw, yes I said, young adult, but she still has that puppy brain at times! She is not 2 yet & while not making an excuse, I still feel she is maturing & not adult yet. No prob by me. 8)

MLR, In her taking off to visit, in the air about discipline here b/c agility & also her being on the sensitive side to a degree, opinion? Do not want her doing, really, as I also fear for her getting ripped at. 8/ 

Thanks!


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## martemchik

In my opinion...you need to correct her, be it verbally or physically for going to visit. You shouldn't worry about killing her "drive" for agility or the fact that she is on the soft side. If she's on the soft side, then you shouldn't give her the freedom to make the mistake. If a loud "NO" get her to shut down...you can't put her in a situation where you would have to do that.

Her going to visit has nothing to do with prey drive, herding drive, or any other drive but wanting to play and blowing you off while you need her to work. You keep mentioning her age but I don't think age or maturity have anything to do with this, if you set expectations higher you wouldn't use that as an excuse of why she's not listening to you. It seems to me that you're alright with her not listening to you and you are willing to take time to get her to naturally want to listen to you (through age) rather than getting her to do it through obedience and training.

Sorry to sound harsh, just that if I had someone that was giving this many excuses in my class I wouldn't really be happy with it. I'm in class to learn, to train, to someday compete and there is someone there that's just waiting for their dog to mature rather than asking their dog to just act mature. We've all had 19 month old dogs, and at 19 months old I expected my dog to listen, to come to me when called, and to be able to work off leash without visiting strange dogs. There is a time and place for that and she needs to know that.

By the way...with as many agility titles as you have on the one dog I really do respect that you know what you're doing. Not sure why all the worries about the dog and what she's doing. Really wish I could watch the two of you work in person to really see what's going on and to truly see what kind of personality your dog has. To me it sounds like you're a bit timid because you've had some "softer" dogs. I can't relate to that because I can pretty much yell "NO" at any point and nothing will happen except that he will stop in his tracks. I think you just need to worry less and put your dog in situations where there is more chance of success than there currently is.


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## LuvourGSDs

I agree & I am that type of person like you & WHY I posted here with this issue & WHY I joined classes to gather her focus & brain why working aroung many crazy distractions & to better my handling! I have eveything I need here at home & she does all. I plan to compete also & will not till I have full control, I hope anyway. Shows go a bit diff than class or home training. Been there. 8/

Thanks....


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## KristiM

Personally my dogs never get away with blowing me off, I don't care if its agility, obedience or tricks in my backyard. If they have the opportunity to blow you off and are rewarded for it, the liklihood of it becoming a major problem increases. (By rewarded I mean being able to greet other dogs etc.) Personally I would be putting a lot of work into motivating this dog to focus, teaching behaviors is a very distant second to having drive and focus on task. Havoc has never blown me off in work, ever. As his drive and focus increased, I increased the temptations. I know that this is tough in a class, have you read Susan Garretts shaping success? She talks about this problem with her dog Buzz.

I really like the Michael Ellis videos for learning how to use food and tugs to increase motivation for a dog (no, they have nothing to do with bite work I highly recommend "the power of training dogs with food" "the power of playing tug with your dog" and "Advanced concepts in motivation" I have significantly changed the way I train my dogs after watching these DVDs and I can't believe the difference! (you can order them on the leerburg website or rent them from Bow Wow Flix.)


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## LuvourGSDs

Have the food dvd from Michael. Had done this since a pup & still use food as a hugh part with her. Her tug is great, but, need to use more & build this up in a class setting. She does a bit & then done.

Guys, not to sound harsh, but, it's not that I am a novice & no nothing about dog training. Distractions has always been our enemy tho. Why I joined a class. We will continue to work this issue.

Thanks....


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## KristiM

Okay I get it, you got kinda bombarded here But seriously the advanced concepts in motivation DVD is AWESOME! Totally changed the way I trained with food and tugs and I would say that it increased my dog's food motivation 10x. Having good food motivation is so helpful for teaching new behaviors, most dogs don't have a TON of food drive though, so learning the game of food chasing is super helpful


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