# Aggression towards scared dogs



## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

My two dogs are playful and submissive to dominate dogs but seem to always find the scared dogs and start attacking them. How do I stop this behavior? I hate going to the dog park because of this even though my two get so excited and seem to be having a ball most of the time. I always take them home after this happens.


Coastiwifelstovall


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm no behavior expert, so hopefully the more knowledgeable will advise. But, that sounds like pretty typical dog behavior, and I think it will be pretty difficult to stop it in while they're _in_ the dog park. I'm not a huge fan of dog parks and/or a bunch of mingling dogs I don't know, personally. I think it's a problem waiting to happen, because it seems like a lot of times the submissive dogs can become a target and things get ugly. Honestly, the easiest way to stop it is to avoid the dog park, but that's kind of stating the obvious, huh?! (Not trying to be a smartypants!) 

My dog gets nervous when two or more dogs approach her, and when she was younger she was the one who would take advantage of a more submissive dog. Luckily, the dog park I do go to is huge, so it's easy to give a wide berth to somebody with two or more dogs. She's ball crazy, too, so if I have the ball, I more easily keep her paying attention to me when somebody with a little dog goes by (she's not aggressive to any dogs anymore, but a lot of times the owner looks a little nervous so I make sure she doesn't even approach them). Today I saw a lady with a tiny dog put her dog on a leash when she saw us coming, and I had Jedda do a down stay as they passed, and I could tell she was relieved my vicious GSD didn't eat her baby. Her dog was well behaved too, but you can't count on that at the dog park! Sorry, got a little braggy there! I did a lot of work with Jedda on watching me when we encountered all kinds of things I didn't want her paying attention to. But I wouldn't be able to get her to pay attention to me in a scrum of dogs, not yet any way.

I just totally avoid the part of the dog park where the dogs just mingle - Jedda just isn't that kind of dog. Do you have that option where you go?


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

It is a large park I go to, but for some reason the people with the scared dogs always end up at the end where I am. My boys like small dogs they don't attack small dogs just the big ones that cower. Only one of them is ball driven the other I guess is show lines or something because the only thing that ever gets his attention is good food. 


Coastiwifelstovall


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

>>>they don't attack little dogs, just the big ones that cower. "

Seriously? You bring your dog's to off leash areas when you know they will bully and/or attack other dogs? Why? Sorry, but dogs like yours and owners like you are the reasons so many people don't trust anyone at dog parks(or most dog owners in general.. Sorry again). I really don't mean to be offensive. I just do not understand why you would put your dog's in a position where this could happen and you know it will, because it has. I had a nervy corgi like your dog's. She only bullied weaker dogs because she knew she wouldn't get away with it with stronger dogs.

I don't know about "normal" but it's not something I would not tolerate, nor is it something I would be continually exposing other dogs to.


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

They never hurt the other dogs just continually harass them. Until I pull them away and take them to dogs that are socialized.


Coastiwifelstovall


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

To answer you question though I take them there so they can be socialized. It's called socializing your dog.


Coastiwifelstovall


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

And my puppy was one of those dogs that cowered until about 7 months old.


Coastiwifelstovall


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If your puppy was treated that way when it was 7 months, that might be why it is treating dogs that cower this way. You should have never allowed your puppy to be bullied this way. 

Having two dogs to one person off lead in a dog park in my opinion should be banned. Most people cannot handle one attacking dog well, and two is beyond the scope of most people. Some people have stable dogs and do manage them ok. But if your dogs are not stable and are harrassing dogs, then the dog park is not where you belong especially with two of them.

Socializing your dog is exposing your dog to a variety of persons, places and things. It can be done totally on lead. It has NOTHING to do with letting your dog run around with a bunch of dogs off lead. That is something totally different. 

Socialization for puppies is done because dogs with weaker nerves may react badly in situations that are unfamiliar. Such a dog that has had exposure to a variety of situations, with positive outcomes, will feel more confident in all situations and is unlikely to respond quickly with their ultimate defense, their teeth. 

If someone does want to use dog parks, then the do need to expose their dogs to dog parks, and ensure that there dog neither bullies or is bullied, and reinforce good behavior and repeat. But this is NOT what is meant by socializing your dog. 

Many dogs NEED to be socialized, but no dog NEEDs to ever set foot in a dog park. Dogs to not NEED doggy-friends -- that is anthropomorphizing dogs. 

I suggest taking your dogs one at a time, and correcting your dog for any bullying behavior. It is possible that with only one at a time, your two bullying dogs will become bullied dogs. Hard to say.


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

I have taken them separately before the one that got left behind howled the whole time I was gone and the one that went was the same. I actually went to a trainer for a while and he wanted the dogs to interact and have play time together before we started training every time. They do feed off eachother though and are rougher. With dominate dogs though both are running and playing and wresting and get a lot more of the energy out then a 2 mile run with me.


Coastiwifelstovall


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

What I am trying to say is that I want my guys to have fun and be dogs. They are good dogs for the most part. They are good with people and most other dogs and well behaved when we are out and about on the leash or in the yard. But I don't want dogs that are not able to go have fun sometimes. Have you ever seen Cesar Milan work with a dog without other dogs? No. I want them to go get that energy out with other dogs like they can't with me. They are so excited every time we go to the dog park they even shake and start wagging their tails as soon as they see the gate at the park. With my puppy all I had to do was make him allow them to sniff him and they were good he just was scared at first and would try to nip them which caused them to dominate by making him cower. He now runs right for dogs at the dog park and does the lower down thing that means he wants to play. 


Coastiwifelstovall


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## belladonnalily (May 24, 2013)

I would wager a guess you don't have Caesar's experience, so comparing what you're doing and what he does means nothing. You are the type of person that makes people hate Caesar.

I took my dog to a dog park ONCE. Some out of control pointer thing started "harassing" him. I left and never took him back. Lesson learned.

You aren't socializing, you're setting your dogs up to be the dogs everyone keeps their dogs away from. Listen to Selzer's advice. 

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## belladonnalily (May 24, 2013)

And it serms weird your trainer wants their energy out before training. Our best training sessions are when Tucker is ready for action. Training a dull tired dog is well, dull and tired...IMHO

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your dogs seem very bonded to each other. This is not necessarily a good thing. It can be a problem. You have already seen this. Is someone at home that heard the dog howl the whole time? And the one you were with also howled the whole time? This is actually troubling.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Cesar Milan is a cult of personality, his charisma plays well on TV. He's not really that great a trainer. 

You have 2 dogs, why can't they play with each other at home to wear each other out like you can't? Why even bother going to the dog park? 

Morgan never 'got it', she'd sit with the humans supervising the other dogs playing. Otto went a few times when he was about 1 but I couldn't really stand all the unsolicited advice about how to train him based on what they'd seen on Cesar's show.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Dogs don't like instability in another dog. My experience has been that if another dog is showing submission to my two but is also showing fear, then both Lola and Harry will be quite mean to the submissive dog, the dog is unstable because it is showing fearful submission or submitting quickly then running off. My two have been around submissive dogs that submitted totally and fully, they were all then able to get along as each accepted their role.

Sometimes you really need to look closely at what the other dog is doing or not doing and the dog disciplining the other dog may not always be in the wrong. However, imo it is not your dogs or my dogs place to discipline another.


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## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

many of you raise good points, and it's true there's the 'bad dog' at dog parks that break up the party. but let's pretend you had a dog that behaved badly the first time you took them to the park would you never take them again? for the next 15 years you would never go back to the dog park? what would you do to make them behave the second time? I think that's the advice she's going for, although it does sound like they misbehaved repeatedly and are somewhat the 'bad dog' now.

My advice would be to exercise them until they are tired, take ONE to the park and let them stay on leash by you and just watch. When they are used to being relaxed at the park (aka sleeping by you because they are tired) then you could try one of them again off leash when they are tired. If the dog has misbehaved before and is mentally and physically rearing to go I would think any submissive dog is going to get the prey drive going. 

other people feel free to tear this advice apart if you want, I too am curious about how to curb bad behavior although thankfully my guy is still a naive puppy.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

belladonnalily said:


> And it serms weird your trainer wants their energy out before training. Our best training sessions are when Tucker is ready for action. Training a dull tired dog is well, dull and tired...IMHO
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Some dogs need a good run before training to expel some of their over excitement and energy. These are the dogs that have just started learning OB training and won't listen to their owner, are too easily distracted by all the other dogs usually because they have so much pent up energy and excitement, so benefit from a quick and hard run before training so that they are calmer and will focus on their handler.

I've seen these type of dogs become excellent in the OB ring once they learn their focus, but to start with owners may need to expel some of that energy.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

Dog parks are not always full of stable dogs and you do not have control of others and their dogs. It can be pretty chaotic. It's very important that you have full control of your own dogs if you choose to go to the dog park. Otherwise, you will only create a bad experience for others and your dogs. They will not gain anything good out of the experience.

I think you should take them separately. It would be better for the relationship between you and your dogs and easier on you if you focus one on one. Together they will be a tag-team duo. More empowered to gang-up on other weaker dogs and harder for you to stop them. A simple way to correct that would be to keep a prong on with a leash dragging and correct right away if your dog starts misbehaving.

I take my dog to the dog park sometimes but I have full control of him. He doesn't start fights, doesn't harass other dogs, and avoids conflict. If there was a scuffle I could help without worrying about my dog getting in it and needing to be dragged out of it.


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

Thank you everyone. I went to the dog park this afternoon and left one off and the one that seems to trigger the aggression on a leash for the most part. It was a long leash so he was able to play with others and if it got out of hand or the other own seemed worried while they were wresting I pulled him back. I don't know that this will help because it makes it kinda feel like I am just defusing the situation by avoidance but I want to train him to not do it. It is hard to know how a dog will react until they start to cower or stand up and face my two. But I do want them to be better at the park with those dogs but they aren't good at following commands when they are in that situation. No the one wasn't howling at the park it is the one that is at home that does the howling my husband was home and he kept running around looking for my other dog and howling. My husband called me and I could hear him in the back ground. But the dog at the park was playing and did show some of the aggression or hassling but maybe not as bad as with the other dog.


Coastiwifelstovall


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The problem with dog parks is humans. Humans expect dogs to act in a way that is foreign to their nature much of the time. For example, it can be perfectly natural for a dog to kill a dog that is seriously ill or injured, why do you think that a dog's instinct is to hide pain and illness? No way are we going to accept a dog viciously attacking another dog in dog park because it is seriously ill and the dog knows it.

Lots of dogs react to dogs that have very weak nerves. In nature, wolves tend to be shy, so that is not necessarily a problem, and the pack can use dogs that are alpha and dogs that are more submissive omega dogs -- though when times are rough, these are the dogs that are harassed, driven out, killed. Why? Because they are the puppysitters, and not the great hunters. 

Beta wolves are the ones that are fighting for pack position. They will be driven out too. They keep things in turmoil. Wolves need to be fit to hunt, and continued injuries will lower you lifespan. Of course they do not think all that, but there is probably a lot better reasoning that any of this written in their genetic code and evidenced by their instinctive behavior.

The problem with dog parks is that humans have domesticated dogs, and have them living under an unnatural code which they have learned to adopt. However, the instinct and dynamics for interacting with critters outside of their own family is still encoded and can be stronger in some circumstances than the code they have adopted to live in the house and follow us, their human leader. 

And some of the things we expect of them certain dogs can manage/be trained to ignore their natural tendencies, and make us happy in a pack of stranger dogs. But some dogs cannot. Sorry. When they see an unstable dog running around that shouldn't be there soaking up the resources or possibly getting near the pups or their family, some dogs will go and harrass this dog to leave the territory, or even attack it. 

We have domesticated dogs. They live with people in their homes and other dogs, even cats in a family unit. I do not understand going backwards and having dogs go out and play like human children with stranger-dogs who may have illnesses, are more or less dominant, more or less stable, than the dog we are taking there. 

In the end, I am pulling all of the crap about wolf behavior out of the air, but I have seen dog's call on their instincts and do things that are totally instinctive, which suggests to me that the instincts of dogs are there and in a group of strange dogs, those instincts may be closer to the surface of the dog than their learned code of behavior that we have instilled. 

In short, I think dog parks are a terrible idea overall. Some people enjoy them with their dogs. Good for them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Leaving a leash on a dog in a dog park can actually instigate problems. A dog that is leashed can be gauding what it is leashed to. It also knows that the possibility of flight is out of the question. So if push comes to shove, it is much more likely and more quickly will come to fight. 

Just a thought. 



coastiewifelstovall said:


> Thank you everyone. I went to the dog park this afternoon and left one off and the one that seems to trigger the aggression on a leash for the most part. It was a long leash so he was able to play with others and if it got out of hand or the other own seemed worried while they were wresting I pulled him back. I don't know that this will help because it makes it kinda feel like I am just defusing the situation by avoidance but I want to train him to not do it. It is hard to know how a dog will react until they start to cower or stand up and face my two. But I do want them to be better at the park with those dogs but they aren't good at following commands when they are in that situation. No the one wasn't howling at the park it is the one that is at home that does the howling my husband was home and he kept running around looking for my other dog and howling. My husband called me and I could hear him in the back ground. But the dog at the park was playing and did show some of the aggression or hassling but maybe not as bad as with the other dog.
> 
> 
> Coastiwifelstovall


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

coastiewifelstovall said:


> Thank you everyone. I went to the dog park this afternoon and left one off and the one that seems to trigger the aggression on a leash for the most part. It was a long leash so he was able to play with others and if it got out of hand or the other own seemed worried while they were wresting I pulled him back. I don't know that this will help because it makes it kinda feel like I am just defusing the situation by avoidance but I want to train him to not do it. It is hard to know how a dog will react until they start to cower or stand up and face my two. But I do want them to be better at the park with those dogs but they aren't good at following commands when they are in that situation. No the one wasn't howling at the park it is the one that is at home that does the howling my husband was home and he kept running around looking for my other dog and howling. My husband called me and I could hear him in the back ground. But the dog at the park was playing and did show some of the aggression or hassling but maybe not as bad as with the other dog.
> 
> 
> Coastiwifelstovall


I don't think you should hold onto a leash attached to your dog. That could cause more problems than it solves. I suggested in my previous post leaving a short leash dragging attached to a prong. You watch your dog and if you see anything you don't like you go over to your dog, give him a correction with the leash then drop it. Make sure he gets it then go back to observing.


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

I have actually seen a dog with a short leash running around before. I will try it next time I go. I didn't know why they did that. 


Coastiwifelstovall


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

selzer said:


> The problem with dog parks is humans. Humans expect dogs to act in a way that is foreign to their nature much of the time. For example, it can be perfectly natural for a dog to kill a dog that is seriously ill or injured, why do you think that a dog's instinct is to hide pain and illness? No way are we going to accept a dog viciously attacking another dog in dog park because it is seriously ill and the dog knows it.
> 
> Lots of dogs react to dogs that have very weak nerves. In nature, wolves tend to be shy, so that is not necessarily a problem, and the pack can use dogs that are alpha and dogs that are more submissive omega dogs -- though when times are rough, these are the dogs that are harassed, driven out, killed. Why? Because they are the puppysitters, and not the great hunters.
> 
> ...


I agree that we humans want some of their natural instincts controlled and quelled but It's not just dog parks. Sometimes it can be unfair to the dogs but that's the way it has to be. Dogs have to be safe around other dogs, around children, around prey animals etc We have them as pets and they need to be able to co-exist peacefully in our world. Sometimes it means a trade off but It's a good trade off.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

KaiserandStella said:


> I agree that we humans want some of their natural instincts controlled and quelled but It's not just dog parks. Sometimes it can be unfair to the dogs but that's the way it has to be. Dogs have to be safe around other dogs, around children, around prey animals etc We have them as pets and they need to be able to co-exist peacefully in our world. Sometimes it means a trade off but It's a good trade off.


I think that in our homes, at the vets, at training classes, the environment is such that we are working with a dog that is comfortable/calm to anxious, but not in super high play drive. The dog is around no dogs, or known dogs, and controlled dogs. When an uncontrolled dog comes acting like a nut, a GSD might very well want to play Fun Police. Rarely are you in total flat out excitement mode in training, save maybe in higher level training for agility, or schutzhund, maybe flyball. And hopefully by that point the dog's rewards are far greater to do the activity than to get into a fight with another dog. We don't play in dog parks and our dogs are conditioned to engage with us, and ignore other dogs. 

My dogs can go for the rest of their lives without interacting with other dogs. They have to be safe in public. Barking and lunging at other dogs is unacceptable. They may have to put up with a yapper trying to run us off its perceived territory, but they do not have to interact with other dogs, ever.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

The family vet we had growing up thought dog parks and doggy daycares were the most asinine, crazy, unsafe thing he had ever heard of. I'm sure it works fine for many dogs, but there are some dogs that do not belong in these spaces. Like selzer already said, you are asking them to suppress instincts that they have no idea how to control. 

See Three Dogs Who Shouldn’t Be at the Dog Park or Daycare | Robin Bennett

My dog has the same problem with attacking dogs that are fearful, especially if they act like prey. She's very sweet with dogs she think can trounce her. However, I don't blame the other dog for having poor nerves. I keep her out of those situations as best I can. I would bet dollars to donuts your dogs are actually experts at bringing out nervous, fearful behavior in other dogs. My guess is that they do not practice polite greeting behavior. 

I don't personally think it's worth it to keep going to the dog park in a situation like this. People have dog parks because they want a community of friendly, stable dogs. Your dogs aren't going to become more friendly and stable if they are put into situations that tempt them to act badly constantly. They need to be in situations where they are more likely to behave.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

As others have stated, this is a reason I don't go to dog parks any longer. My golden I got extremely lucky with. Because I left him intact until he was around a year old (took one teste until he was five months to fully descend), he was often targeted. Myles is a very calm, very patient and generally easy going dog. He would hit the dirt quickly, stop moving, and eventually when he got older, tell the other dog to back off. He's actually kind of unique in that he seems to understand how to speak with/deal with other dogs of any breed that he comes across.

My older shepherd ignores most other dogs. They aren't under her radar. Unless they really harass her or are trying to play rough/turning at me (even if its in play and I am not the target), she leaves them alone. Honestly I am more than happy with this. I'd rather that she ignore other dogs, walk away from situations and be appropriate in telling another dog to back off. She is not interested in fighting or bullying (outside of other females in the home pack) other dogs. When I took her to the dog park a few times, she ignored them and just played ball. Even with dogs chasing/nipping at her. If they pushed enough was one thing. 

My youngest is being a pain currently. Instead of dog parks, we tend to go on group hikes. The group spreads out, everyone gets to enjoy a nice hike with plenty of ways to wear the dogs out, and honestly unless we stop in one place for too long, normally there's not really any trouble. He is being a punk lately, nipping at strange dogs and acting like he's tough. He's submissive to every dog he lives with (we have enough to literally have a pack) but other dogs he's been a brat to lately. Honestly I feel bad for the dogs, not only because he's a twerp but the people yell at their dogs for telling him he's a brat. I've been working on getting his recall sharper, getting his attention before these things happen, but he ends up in a time out situation on these hikes a lot. And today, when he was trying to actively pick on an older hound, I corrected him and got his attention back on me. Thankfully for him, being on the leash and unable to go with his friends (my older two) is what he hates. He loves getting to run with the other dogs. 

Only thing I ask is that new dogs or strange dogs are ignored. These hikes are nice because there's people and other dogs there, new sounds and sights, without any forced interaction.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kaimeju said:


> The family vet we had growing up thought dog parks and doggy daycares were the most asinine, crazy, unsafe thing he had ever heard of. I'm sure it works fine for many dogs, but there are some dogs that do not belong in these spaces. Like selzer already said, you are asking them to suppress instincts that they have no idea how to control.
> 
> See Three Dogs Who Shouldn’t Be at the Dog Park or Daycare | Robin Bennett


LOL, Dominant, Submissive and Balanced.  Out of the three the only dog that anyone can take to the dog park are balanced dogs.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

I think dog parks are very risky business and the whole doggie socialization thing there, in those circumstances, could be way more potential trouble than it's worth.

In my opinion.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

coastiewifelstovall said:


> Thank you everyone. I went to the dog park this afternoon and left one off and the one that seems to trigger the aggression on a leash for the most part. It was a long leash so he was able to play with others and if it got out of hand or the other own seemed worried while they were wresting I pulled him back. I don't know that this will help because it makes it kinda feel like I am just defusing the situation by avoidance but I want to train him to not do it. It is hard to know how a dog will react until they start to cower or stand up and face my two. But I do want them to be better at the park with those dogs but they aren't good at following commands when they are in that situation. No the one wasn't howling at the park it is the one that is at home that does the howling my husband was home and he kept running around looking for my other dog and howling. My husband called me and I could hear him in the back ground. But the dog at the park was playing and did show some of the aggression or hassling but maybe not as bad as with the other dog.
> 
> 
> Coastiwifelstovall


 You might find this thread interesting :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/426282-agressiveness-while-group.html

To bad the people whose dogs yours are punking did not read this: Leerburg | Dog Parks: Why They Are A Bad Idea

"Responsible" pet owners don't "socialize" their dogs by making victims out of other peoples pets! 

You don't need to create a long line of doggie victims in order to "socialize" your dog...which you are not doing by the way, you're letting your dogs run amok and creating problems down the line for yourself as well as others.

I never took my clearly Dominate male BullMastiff/Pitt mix or my Dominate Aggressive GSD to a dog park cause that's not my style! I taught them to ignore other dogs and did not use other peoples dogs as guinea pigs in the process! 

That's what responsible dog owners do!

And everybody likes to half ass quote/copy Cesar Millan but most seem to miss the fact that he is not taking dogs with problems into a pack of unbalanced dogs!

Oh and lots of states have conceled carry permits and lots of dog owners aren't wrapped to tight.

Off duty LEO kills family pet | Reformed Musings

Just my 2 cents


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## coastiewifelstovall (Mar 15, 2014)

Okay well avoidance doesn't help anything just FYI people. I never let my dogs hurt any other dog. It doesn't happen. Yeah they run up to other dogs they are puppies by the way. One just turned a year old and the other is under ten months. Neither is actually ripping into dogs. They don't do that. I may have confused some of you by saying attacking but that is how I feel it is. They get rough with some of the big dogs while playing but that is just wresting like dogs DO. With little dogs usually they let them be the ones on top and play gently and love playing with little dogs more than the big. I am not going to ever be one of those owners that think oh because I own the dog they have to pretty much be submissive all the time and have no spirit and be completely tuned to me no they are dogs to me. When I work with them they know I am working with them and it is one on one or two to one I don't work with them usually when they are playing I don't want them to act aggressively but I don't ever want them to stop having fun and being a dog. I do go on hikes with them as well and they stay near me and don't even care about other dogs but when it comes to the park it is their time and they are able to let go and be a dog. I think with some more work and different ideas that I have now they will be better and probably with age will come calmer behavior.. My dogs really do love the park and are a lot more relaxed when we are done at the park.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

coastiewifelstovall said:


> One just turned a year old and the other is under ten months.


Just something to be aware of, in my experience GSDs often change around the 1 year old age, especially in dog park situations. Many become dominant towards other dogs and are just not interested in playing or interacting any more and prefer to be with just you.

If you notice your GSDs becoming annoyed in a way with other dogs, it might be better to find other exercise outlets for them and only take them to the dog park sometimes.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

coastiewifelstovall said:


> Okay well avoidance doesn't help anything just FYI people. I never let my dogs hurt any other dog. It doesn't happen. Yeah they run up to other dogs they are puppies by the way. One just turned a year old and the other is under ten months. Neither is actually ripping into dogs. They don't do that. I may have confused some of you by saying attacking but that is how I feel it is. They get rough with some of the big dogs while playing but that is just wresting like dogs DO. With little dogs usually they let them be the ones on top and play gently and love playing with little dogs more than the big.


Well those dogs sound a lot different than the ones in the first post??



coastiewifelstovall said:


> I am not going to ever be one of those owners that think oh because I own the dog they have to pretty much be submissive all the time and have no spirit and be completely tuned to me no they are dogs to me.


 Ok we'll play your way, this is what my dog ignoring, non dog park dog,did, that according to you, should have "no spirit and be completely submissive:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do-2.html




coastiewifelstovall said:


> When I work with them they know I am working with them and it is one on one or two to one I don't work with them usually when they are playing I don't want them to act aggressively but I don't ever want them to stop having fun and being a dog. I do go on hikes with them as well and they stay near me and don't even care about other dogs but when it comes to the park it is their time and they are able to let go and be a dog. I think with some more work and different ideas that I have now they will be better and probably with age will come calmer behavior.. My dogs really do love the park and are a lot more relaxed when we are done at the park.


Ok dogs aren't wine, they don't get better with age, they get better with "proper" training! My dogs are/were safe in public around kids and around other dogs and are always under my control. They were never allowed to run around out of control around packs of dogs. There fun was me my wife and each other.

And yes I'm sure your dogs are tired and happy after a day at the dog park. It's a lot easier to exercise them that way. They are also "learning" that they don't need "you" to have fun and that it's OK for them to be out of control. That's a theory on my part don't know because I don't do dog parks. What I do know is that my dogs will never be on Cesar 911,my dogs have "no" problems because my dogs never picked up any behavioural problems from "playing dogs gone wild!'


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

coastiewifelstovall said:


> Okay well avoidance doesn't help anything just FYI people. I never let my dogs hurt any other dog. It doesn't happen. Yeah they run up to other dogs they are puppies by the way. One just turned a year old and the other is under ten months. Neither is actually ripping into dogs. They don't do that. I may have confused some of you by saying attacking but that is how I feel it is. They get rough with some of the big dogs while playing but that is just wresting like dogs DO. With little dogs usually they let them be the ones on top and play gently and love playing with little dogs more than the big. I am not going to ever be one of those owners that think oh because I own the dog they have to pretty much be submissive all the time and have no spirit and be completely tuned to me no they are dogs to me. When I work with them they know I am working with them and it is one on one or two to one I don't work with them usually when they are playing I don't want them to act aggressively but I don't ever want them to stop having fun and being a dog. I do go on hikes with them as well and they stay near me and don't even care about other dogs but when it comes to the park it is their time and they are able to let go and be a dog. I think with some more work and different ideas that I have now they will be better and probably with age will come calmer behavior.. My dogs really do love the park and are a lot more relaxed when we are done at the park.


If Cesar Millan was helping you with your dogs he would advise you to keep them calm-submissive at all times especially before entering the dog park. Also, for you to stay calm-assertive and not worry about a bad outcome. To let them go enjoy being dogs but if they so much as looked at another dog the wrong way he would be instantly on them correcting them physically and verbally in his Cesar way till they become calm-submissive again.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

coastiewifelstovall said:


> Okay well avoidance doesn't help anything just FYI people. I never let my dogs hurt any other dog. It doesn't happen. Yeah they run up to other dogs they are puppies by the way. One just turned a year old and the other is under ten months. Neither is actually ripping into dogs. They don't do that. I may have confused some of you by saying attacking but that is how I feel it is. They get rough with some of the big dogs while playing but that is just wresting like dogs DO. With little dogs usually they let them be the ones on top and play gently and love playing with little dogs more than the big. I am not going to ever be one of those owners that think oh because I own the dog they have to pretty much be submissive all the time and have no spirit and be completely tuned to me no they are dogs to me. When I work with them they know I am working with them and it is one on one or two to one I don't work with them usually when they are playing I don't want them to act aggressively but I don't ever want them to stop having fun and being a dog. I do go on hikes with them as well and they stay near me and don't even care about other dogs but when it comes to the park it is their time and they are able to let go and be a dog. I think with some more work and different ideas that I have now they will be better and probably with age will come calmer behavior.. My dogs really do love the park and are a lot more relaxed when we are done at the park.


Wrestling can turn to fighting very quickly. They may be playing but if they annoy the wrong dog you can easily have a fight on your hands! A lot of people don't believe it but dogs do not need to play with other dogs or have dog friends. I think just asking my dogs to be indifferent to other dogs is just fine. People don't like dog parks because of exactly what you're talking about, just turning the dogs loose and letting them run wild. Yeah, the dog is having fun but a dog can have just as much fun in a more controlled situation! Just because a dog likes something does not mean they should be able to do it. My dogs LOVE to get in the trash. They love to jump up on people, beg at the dinner table, and get mouthy with me. Does that mean it's okay to do those things? A well trained dog who goes on a hike or for a swim instead of the park is having a great time! Why would you want your dogs only to listen to you when you're not at the park? Sit means sit, down means down, come means come no matter where we are! If they can't play appropriately with the other dogs they don't play, at least IMO.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Over arousal in play is not a good thing. 

And while avoidance may not help anything in your mind, it actually does prevent dogs from learning bad things. 

Bonnie the Bull Terrier and Porter the Pitbull: Dog Park Pals or Not? | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Dr. Yin is doing a lot of training and teaching here in that link and the ones here: Dog Play | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS 

She is not doing it in the actual environment of multiple dogs. She is also in the San Francisco area, where dog parks are typically larger and nicer than in other areas. Personally, I don't think they are worth it. But understand that you are representing the breed when you take your dogs out, so please make a good impression.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Your dogs are NOT puppies and even though they do not attack physically, a good scare is enough to make a not so stable young dog to be dog aggressive. You should not take them to dog parks. Like it was said before, situations and owners that defend their unstable dogs are the reason dog parks get such a bad reputation.
You need to get your dogs trained separately first and to focus on you instead of having "fun" on their own terms.
If you take one to the park, does this happen too or do they rely on each other to bully nervous dogs?
And what about your own dogs' and your own safety? One day they will encounter a dog or owner who won't put up with this kind of behavior.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I never take my guys to the dog park unless the smaller area is empty for fetch. GSD's are not really a breed for the dog park anyway.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

LOL I like to repeat Herder Overlord to myself when I get the urge to visit a dogpark. Morgan was so totally the supervisor when I took her, sitting there with the humans watching the other dogs making sure they behaved, ready to step in and control the situation if need be. Otto just wanted to play in the corner with his ball. I have a corner at home. Venus has never been but she's 14 almost 15 months old. She'd probably want to control all the other dogs too.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

SunCzarina said:


> LOL I like to repeat Herder Overlord to myself when I get the urge to visit a dogpark. Morgan was so totally the supervisor when I took her, sitting there with the humans watching the other dogs making sure they behaved, ready to step in and control the situation if need be. Otto just wanted to play in the corner with his ball. I have a corner at home. Venus has never been but she's 14 almost 15 months old. She'd probably want to control all the other dogs too.


Herder overlord omg that's PERFECT lmao! That fits Eko to a T, he's so bossy!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Also going to add that I'm pretty sure your not going to see service dogs are other working dogs at dog parks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I actually agree that your dogs ARE puppies. They are beyond the most beneficial socialization stage, but they have not reached their adult temperament yet. 

I also do believe that dogs are like wine, they do get better with age, to a point. They can also get worse in some ways. For example, as our dogs age, they lose some of the puppy-rambunctiousness, and they will become in most instances less concerned or excited by ordinary occurrences, and by living with them for longer and longer, we learn their limits and to trust them within those limits, and they learn some limits and to accept guidance within those limits. For this reason, we can be more relaxed with our four year old dog, than we were with our ten month old dog. And our 8.5 year old dog, well she has reached darn close to perfection. Not because she is perfect, but because we no her inside and out, and she is comfortable with us in all circumstances, and thus we have a working bond. 

But, if we allow dogs to live in behaviors that are not desirable. To continue with them, many of which are self-rewarding, they will not improve, and most likely they will escalate. If a dog is out of control at 10 months, and nothing is done to change that, the dog is going to be out of control at 14 months, and 24 months, and 48 months -- if he survives that long. 

Out of control dogs tend to have a much higher rate of being put down, than dogs who are under control. Under control does not mean chronically submissive and lacking in spirit. Nothing can be further from the truth. Yes, some people abuse dogs until they are worms. That is sad. But people who TRAIN their dogs are actually helping a dog reach its potential. They engage the dog, challenge the dog, amuse the dog, exercise the dog mental capacity and thus increase it. And if done properly, the dog love it and thrives, and the spirit of the dog is alive and healthier than ever.

A child living without discipline, is an unhappy child. A child that does not have limits, is adrift in the world and constantly on edge. It is not so different for dogs. Dogs are a critter that has the emotional span and mentality similar in ways to young children. The are the most relaxed in situations where they have clear boundaries, understand the rules, and trust their leader. This does not come from letting dogs be dogs in a dog park. It comes from consistent leadership, good management, and regular training.


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