# Puppy food problem thought



## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

have noticed a pattern here for the short time I have been present here. This of course wont pertain to all pups here it did for mine.

Its very consistent on this site that most of us, including me, use these rich expensive foods. The results seem to be the same. 

A new post with my puppy has pudding poops. Could it be as simple as we buy our pups and they were being feed some bad breeder food. We than switch to the best, non puppy all stages food and the richest stuff out their. We do not give our pups stomach enough time to get used to the rich food. Than the poop and chicken allergy questions begin. we switch foods again. We ask our vet who knows nothing about food. That isn't taught in veterinary college. They sell Royal canine or Science Diet, so they all prescribe and sell that. And they we all yell Science Diet is crap at the poster.

Even Thu our dogs when we were young were fed crap and lived as long or longer. When I was younger eukanuba came out it was the greatest invention for dog food. Good-bye Purina and Alpo. My dog lived to 13 1/2 on that garbage.

We feed our dogs better than us. I wonder if a study was ever done feeding siblings different foods to see how they progressed. 

All these over priced great foods like Orijen, TOTW and others that get recommended. The common thing on these foods is their lack of testing for things that can kill your dog. All they sell is great quality food, fresh. I got food poisoning at Nobu, $1000 dinner. Gotta say the food tasted great before I got sick.

So in closing I still use a good food and went through all the above but I picked the food on the testing they do to make sure it doesn't have any diseases as much as quality of the ingredients.

I just wonder if we are giving poor advice on puppy food or we are being sold a bag of crap,lol on the all stages food instead of actual puppy food.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I don't think, unless we buy supermarket dog food, that we are being sold a "bag of crap" unless, of course, you recognize that that is what anything our dogs eat becomes... 
The super premium foods are generally a bit rich for the GSD gut. They taste great and the dog has a tendency to overeat which certainly, in the case at this house, contributes. You can supplement with rice and yogurt or go to a feed that is less concentrated. The super premiums are rich feeds and you are supposed to feed less. However, my dogs want MORE!


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> I don't think, unless we buy supermarket dog food, that we are being sold a "bag of crap" unless, of course, you recognize that that is what anything our dogs eat becomes...
> The super premium foods are generally a bit rich for the GSD gut. They taste great and the dog has a tendency to overeat which certainly, in the case at this house, contributes. You can supplement with rice and yogurt or go to a feed that is less concentrated. The super premiums are rich feeds and you are supposed to feed less. However, my dogs want MORE!


 
Bag of crap was a pun to the all stages food, not what was actually in the bag. Instead of a line of crap a bag of crap.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

yes and that feed less line is another one. What GSD wants to be fed less. eat less means more hungry.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

kr16 said:


> yes and that feed less line is another one. What GSD wants to be fed less. eat less means more hungry.


so your point is to feed a crap food? And your reasoning is that you got sick off an expensive dinner and some gsd's have problems with these foods (keeping in mind that only those that have problems will complain)? Your logic does not compute. Do you work for one of these companies? Also, yes these foods are relatively expensive compared with crappy foods but super inexpensive when you actually look at it. It costs us a little over $2 a day to feed our dog wellness large breed puppy (4 cups a day). To me, that doesn't seem like a big deal.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

kr16 said:


> yes and that feed less line is another one. What GSD wants to be fed less. eat less means more hungry.


most gsd's are a like a fat human. if you feed them what they actually would eat they would be fat bastards. you control the feeding, not them.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

To the OP - huh?!? 

I didn't think it was possible, but somehow you brought in your $1000 dinner ****** as some of your main points when deciding which food to feed....


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

JPF said:


> so your point is to feed a crap food? And your reasoning is that you got sick off an expensive dinner and some gsd's have problems with these foods (keeping in mind that only those that have problems will complain)? Your logic does not compute. Do you work for one of these companies? Also, yes these foods are relatively expensive compared with crappy foods but super inexpensive when you actually look at it. It costs us a little over $2 a day to feed our dog wellness large breed puppy (4 cups a day). To me, that doesn't seem like a big deal.


No, thats not my point and the reasoning in getting sick is you can have the best quality expensive food but if it doesnt get tested properly you can get sick or in a dogs case, die from it. A lot of the expensive foods do not address testing on their sites. But we use only the best local quality they say. 

The point of this thread is that mostly everyone here including me uses these ultra rich non puppy all stages food right when we get our puppies at 8 weeks or so. The result for a lot of us pudding poops. 

Do we not give the food enough time for our pup to get used to it or is it not proper? 

Are we being told the all stages is good when we should be using puppy food? 

And no I do not work for any pet related anything.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

kr16 said:


> No, thats not my point and the reasoning in getting sick is you can have the best quality expensive food but if it doesnt get tested properly you can get sick or in a dogs case, die from it. A lot of the expensive foods do not address testing on their sites. But we use only the best local quality they say.
> 
> The point of this thread is that mostly everyone here including me uses these ultra rich non puppy all stages food right when we get our puppies at 8 weeks or so. The result for a lot of us pudding poops.
> 
> ...


What kind of testing to you think other companies do? 

I've been feeding Orijen since my dog was 4months old. He's 2 now, never had a problem. I think that's a pretty good test.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

kr16 said:


> *The point of this thread is that mostly everyone here including me uses these ultra rich non puppy all stages food right when we get our puppies at 8 weeks or so. The result for a lot of us pudding poops. *


I don't think that's the truth. I feel the VAST majority of us have no problems when we get our pups with whatever food we feed them.

What I do feel is the truth is if someone DOES have a problem with a food, then they post. And it may just happen that it develops that THEIR puppy has a problem with an ultra righ puppy food.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> What kind of testing to you think other companies do?
> 
> I've been feeding Orijen since my dog was 4months old. He's 2 now, never had a problem. I think that's a pretty good test.


 My issue in my brain was that I switched my dog to Blue last year, she died later from liver damage. I blame blue, the symptoms came in the proper time period of the switching. So alls good is not good enough for me, I want testing, thats just my thought. it can takes time for tainted food to kill a dog.

Don't want to get accused of working for this company, naturals balance has this on their website. When I was researching all the foods, TOTW, and Orijen mostly. I decided on this one, this is what impressed me besides other things. 

But with that being said the all stages thing is what still gets me. 

Natural Balance Pet Foods Inc. Screening Tests


*ABOUT OUR TESTING *
*Who is Testing Our Pet Food?*
*Midwest Laboratories:* Midwest Laboratories in Omaha, NE is an independent laboratory highly skilled at testing for contaminants. Starting as a testing facility for agricultural analysis of soil, plant tissue and feeds, Midwest has expanded into pesticide analysis, water analysis and microbiological analysis for food, pet food, fertilizer, nematodes, biosolids, petroleum, and hazardous waste. Their chemists, biologists and environmental scientists are able to address new analytical challenges with the latest instruments and methods of testing.
*NB Laboratories:* In 2007 Natural Balance hired Quality Control Chemist, Roummel (Rome) Ruvolo (right). Mr. Ruvolo earned his Bachelor of Science in Pharmacy and had been working in the biotechnology field for over two years at the time he was recruited. His prior research was based on Bio-inspired Oxygen and Light-driven Homogenous Catalysts. NB Laboratories has grown over the last three years. Mr. Ruvolo is the head of the laboratory and has recruited a staff of three other technicians. The staff of NB Laboratories works seven days a week to test our products.
Our standard testing protocol includes testing for Aflatoxin, DON (Vomitoxin), Ochratoxin, Zearalenone (ZEA), and Fumonisin. As of September, 2008, we have added screening for E. coli and Salmonella. Stringent research, development and quality control practices have led to proven reliability and consistency of our tests. The accuracy and reproducibility of these testing protocols have inspired wide acceptance and use throughout the food industry. These tests have also earned official approvals and third party validations, including:
• AOAC International 
• AOAC Research Institute 
• IUPAC 
• USDA/GIPSA (FGIS) 
• USDA/FSIS 
We have also added testing for Melamine and Cyanuric acid to our protocol. For months these tests were being done through an independent laboratory, and since October, 2007, we have started testing for Melamine and Cyanuric Acid in our own Laboratory, using a Mass Spectrometer, which is used at many major Universities. 

*Testing for Aflatoxin/DON (Vomitoxin):*

*ELISA Test*

NB Laboratories and Midwest Labs, our independent laboratory, use ELISA tests for Aflatoxin, DON (Vomitoxin), Ochratoxin, Zearalenone (ZEA), and Fumonisin. ELISA tests are quantitative tests that compare up to 19 samples at a time against test controls. Through the use of a microwell reader, the tests provide accurate sample results in parts per million (for Aflotoxin) or parts per billion (for Vomitoxin). Performing an ELISA involves at least one antibody with specificity for a particular antigen. The sample with an unknown amount of antigen is immobilized on a solid support (usually a polystyrene microtiter plate) either non-specifically (via adsorption to the surface) or specifically (via capture by another antibody specific to the same antigen, in a "sandwich" ELISA). After the antigen is immobilized the detection antibody is added, forming a complex with the antigen. The detection antibody can be covalently linked to an enzyme, or can itself be detected by a secondary antibody which is linked to an enzyme through bioconjugation. Between each step the plate is typically washed with a mild detergent solution to remove any proteins or antibodies that are not specifically bound. After the final wash step the plate is developed by adding an enzymatic substrate to produce a visible signal, which indicates the quantity of antigen in the sample. The Enzyme ImmunoAssay (EIA) is a synonym for the ELISA.
*Neogen GeneQuence® Test*

NB Laboratories uses Neogen GeneQuence® tests for E. coli and Salmonella. 
*Testing for E. coli:* GeneQuence E. coli O157:H7 is a double antibody (sandwich) enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) utilizing specific anti- E. coli O157:H7 antibodies coated to microwells. The controls and samples are added to the antibody wells. After incubation, the wells are washed with a wash buffer and conjugate is added. After a second incubation and wash, substrate is added, which develops a blue color. A final incubation is followed by the addition of the stop solution, which turns the blue color to yellow. Results are read using a microwell plate or strip reader by comparing the optical densities of the samples to the optical densities of the negative and positive controls.
*Testing for Salmonella:* The DNA hybridization test employs Salmonella-specific DNA probes which are directly labeled with horseradish peroxidase. A colorimetric endpoint is then used for the detection of Salmonella spp. in food samples following broth culture enrichment. A sample is considered negative for the presence of Salmonella if the absorbance value obtained is less than 0.10. A sample is considered presumptively positive for the presence of Salmonella if the absorbance value obtained is greater than or equal to 0.10.
*Testing for Melamine/Cyanuric Acid*
Traditional crude protein and non-protein nitrogen tests are not melamine specific. The possibility of new kinds of protein tests which will be able to separate natural protein from added nitrogen is still being explored, but they have yet to be implemented in standard protein testing. Our testing for melamine is to make sure that the level, if any, does not exceed 2.5 ppm in accordance with FDA and European Union guidelines. Midwest Labs, our independent laboratory, uses two different methods to detect Melamine and Cyanuric Acid. One is Liquid Chromatography Mass Spectrometry (LC/MS) and the second is Gas Chromatograph fitted with a Nitrogen-Phosphorus Detector (GC/NPD). NB Laboratories uses Spectrophotometric testing. Details on each method are below.
*Liquid Chromatography (LC): *
Chromatography studies the separation of molecules based on differences in their structure and/or composition. The most common technique is Liquid Chromatography, which is used to separate the target molecule from undesired contaminants, as well as to analyze the final product for the requisite purity established with governmental regulatory groups (such as the FDA). 
*Mass Spectrometry (MS): *
Mass spectrometry is a powerful analytical technique that is used to extract the structure and chemical properties of molecules to identify known and unknown compunds. Compounds can be identified at very low concentrations in chemically complex mixtures. LC/MS is a powerful combination for tests requiring the most thorough chemical analysis.
*Gas Chromatograph fitted with a Nitrogen-Phosphorus Detector (GC/NPD):*
This instrument and method is very accurate, with the ability to detect melamine at very low levels (10 part per million). The instrument is set up with dual NP detectors and the GC is fitted with two different GC columns. Both columns must detect melamine and deviate less than 5% from each other for a sample to be confirmed as containing melamine.
*Spectrophotometric Testing: *
Spectrophotometry involves the use of a spectrophotometer, which can measure intensity as a function of the color, or more specifically, the wavelength of light in a compound. This method of chemical analysis based on the absorption by matter of electromagnetic radiation of a specified wavelength or frequency.The radiation interacts with specific features of the molecular species being determined, such as the vibrational or rotational motions of the chemical bonds. Using UV-microscopy, absorbance spectra of melamine can be detected.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> What kind of testing to you think other companies do?
> 
> I've been feeding Orijen since my dog was 4months old. He's 2 now, never had a problem. I think that's a pretty good test.


I couldn't agree more with this thread and if you ask the owners of a mom and pop store, they will tell you the same. My local guy is third generation in the animal feed business and of course has to sell expensive brands loaded up with berries, herbs and other silly ingredients. The results he will tell you are much better with solid basic foods with simple formulas that are made the right way. I have mentioned several. Manufacturing is absolutely critical wit a dry food. That is why I will always tend to feed something made by Ohio Pet Foods.

As far as testing goes? Annamaet has been under continuous testing for about 25 years on sled dog teams. When the grain frees were introduced they were tested on his in-house kennel of 40 dogs for a couple years. Dr. Tim's was tested on his 50 dog racing kennel for over 6 years as well on other teams all over the world. Eagle the same thing. I mentioned Loyall on another thread. I have no idea why that food has such good results given the ingredients but, darn, for $30 for a 50lb bag, that tells you someone knows how to actually make a food. Midwestern Pet Foods is another, in some place you can but the Black Bag of SportMix for $20 for 50lbs and have excellent results.

I have no idea about Orijen, Go!, Castor & Pollux, Stella & Chewy and all those other foods. Do these companies even have a nutritionist? I saw this one food Mulligan's Stew and the owner worked at Microsoft I think. The Honest Kitchen one of the founders worked at Nissan Motors.

LOL...


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I don't think that's the truth. I feel the VAST majority of us have no problems when we get our pups with whatever food we feed them.
> 
> What I do feel is the truth is if someone DOES have a problem with a food, then they post. And it may just happen that it develops that THEIR puppy has a problem with an ultra righ puppy food.


I guess my point is this is the first pup I ever had where I didnt use a puppy food. I never had a problem before.

I didnt post about the pudding poops I resolved it on my own. All is good now but I did switch foods which maybe I didnt have to do if i left him on it a little longer. that was a point also do we leave them on the food a little longer or throw the towell in.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

JPF said:


> most gsd's are a like a fat human. if you feed them what they actually would eat they would be fat bastards. you control the feeding, not them.


My dog has been free(self) feeding for a year and a half (TOTW, Wellness, Orijen) and has remained slender and healthy.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Why do you believe that Blue Buffalo was the cause of your pup's kidney failure? I've never tried it, but am just wondering. I also wonder how you made the switch to different foods? Did you make the switch slowly, blending in the new food with the old food to allow their system time to adjust?

I've heard many people say that Orijen was too rich for their pups and others say their dogs have thrived on it. the other thing I wanted to mention, and we recently discussed this in another thread, is that TOTW is NOT and All Life Stages food when it comes to large breed pups. The calcium levels are too high and cause accelerated growth in puppies, which is something I'm dealing with now.

I agree with you that testing should be done on all foods marketed, but it is also our job to research the foods that we feed to make sure that they contain the appropriate levels needed for our individual dogs, and not just go by the marketing on the bag or recommendations by others.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> My dog has been free(self) feeding for a year and a half (TOTW, Wellness, Orijen) and has remained slender and healthy.


That can work fine in some situations, and it's more likely to work when there's only 1 dog. In a multi-dog household maybe not so great!


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> My dog has been free(self) feeding for a year and a half (TOTW, Wellness, Orijen) and has remained slender and healthy.


thats great but all i know is that our dog would probably eat until he was fat. although this is speculation because we control his feeding.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Tihannah said:


> Why do you believe that Blue Buffalo was the cause of your pup's kidney failure? I've never tried it, but am just wondering. I also wonder how you made the switch to different foods? Did you make the switch slowly, blending in the new food with the old food to allow their system time to adjust?
> 
> I've heard many people say that Orijen was too rich for their pups and others say their dogs have thrived on it. the other thing I wanted to mention, and we recently discussed this in another thread, is that TOTW is NOT and All Life Stages food when it comes to large breed pups. The calcium levels are too high and cause accelerated growth in puppies, which is something I'm dealing with now.
> 
> I agree with you that testing should be done on all foods marketed, but it is also our job to research the foods that we feed to make sure that they contain the appropriate levels needed for our individual dogs, and not just go by the marketing on the bag or recommendations by others.


just the timing of switching and the massive water consumption while she was on Blue. Like I said its in my brain, i may be right doesnt matter since shes gone. But my quest was to find proper testing on the foods with quality.

Yes always do the blending, the switch to blue was due to massive sheding and hot spots. Worked for that end result was bad.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> What kind of testing to you think other companies do?
> 
> I've been feeding Orijen since my dog was 4months old. He's 2 now, never had a problem. I think that's a pretty good test.


Ya reckon?? What about Jo Blow who feeds his dog supermarket food and has done so for 10 years and has NEVER had a problem....he'd probably say the same thing no??


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I stumbled across this article today regarding the kidneys and high protein and thought it might be interesting to you...

Basically says that higher protein diets often contain excessive nitrogen which can lead to kidney damage or cause failure in dogs that already have a predisposition with the kidneys. Those transitioned to lower protein was in effect to lower nitrogen levels...

Dog Food FAQs: Protein


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