# Follow Me



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

A couple of days ago at the dog park, we spotted a gentleman and his dog walking the perimeter. His dog was about 3-5 feet behind him perfectly following in his master's footsteps. Glory went over to greet the dog, and the dog stopped, while they exchanged doggie pleasantries, then the dog caught up with his master again, about 3-5 feet behind him, perfectly following his master in his footsteps. 

How does one get a dog to follow them like that?!

When Glory is off leash, or we are not heeling, she always insists on jetting ahead of me, sometimes 5-10 meters ahead of me, sniffing around and whatnot. But there must be an alternative to my dog always being at a strict heel or on a leash, especially when hiking. There are times, for my dog's safety, I would like her to follow me, like the dog at the dog park. 

I have some ideas about how to do this, but if anyone can offer some help, I'm all ears (or eyes)! 

Sincerely, Christina


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

That's interesting! 

Only thing I thought of was dropping pieces of hot dogs behind me as I walked...LOL


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Haha, bet you'd get quite a following doing that at a dog park









I don't know how to train for that either, though a foster I had would have the habit of walking behind me on walks without being asked. I usually had Sasha on the left, Nico on the right, and Ruger just preferred to walk behind, though he wasn't particularly submissive, more of a "neutral" dog like Nico.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

I saw this stuff of tv and they didnt say anything but the dog realised that you were 100% the pack leader.. and the dogs were on a leash.
maybe get somebody to go for a walk with you and your dog(s)? they hold the leash, you teach the command to heel but behind you?
probably wouldnt work but just a suggestion!


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

HMMMM, I may experiment with this one!


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

This "Superdog" program emphasizes walking behind the owner.

http://superdog.com/superdog_philosophy.htm

It makes good points - a dog is not aggressive when he's behind the owner! He is in total follower mode.

In my experience trying to get my dog Riku to walk back there, I realize that the more hyped up he is, the less likely he wants to stay back there. One night, I practiced leaving the house calmly several times in a row, just going out, taking a few steps, then turning around and coming back in, until Riku was totally relaxed, and viola! he was following several feet behind me automatically where usually he would be fighting his urge to forge forward.

I think it can be trained, for example, by using body language to "back the dog" away if he tries to forge past you, and reinforcing it EVERY time until it becomes habit -- i.e., he tries to forge past, he goes back further and only then do we move forward. Hopefully that position (following) would make the dog easier to manage in other ways too.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Here is a link to the "leave the house calmly" protocol I was doing when Riku ended up following behind me, see the "red light/green light" section.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/training-dog-walk

If you have a few minutes, you might try it to see if your dog ends up following behind you after 5-10 times going in and out of the house.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Wow! Thanks Ucdcrush! I think you understand where I am coming from. It is an easy way to control your dog and make sure they are safe. I will check out superdog and dogstardaily. Let ya know what I think....


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

A little more on this. I took my dogs for a walk this morning, at the river which we do on weekends, and which is full of unpredictability and distractions from people, other dogs, deer, coyotes, bikes etc. It is a good place to have the dogs follow me and not get fixated on something out front.

I used this (old school) technique to prevent forging:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo0BKCTncEc

I usually walk the dogs one in each hand, but to turn about quickly, both need to be on one side.

When we go off on our walk and they forge, and I give a quick pop and go the other way (for at least 10 steps), they are following me for those 10 steps, till I turn around to continue, where they would follow for a bit (slightly behind me) then tend to forge. I just now got the idea that I should continue that 10 steps where they are following and praise them highly when they do that.

I wish I had thunked of that on the walk, but anyways they did very good with that approach and for the most part were a tad behind my leg, ears down, looking relaxed and content to follow. They were quite easy to handle with this approach.

Riku, who is my big dog and who is quite high strung and dog reactive, was the one who tended to forge, while Tuki hung back by my leg. When I did my sudden turns I was careful to give the correction (a light pop) to the forger.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Riku sounds a little bit like Glory as far as being dog reactive. I thank you so much for taking the time to help me with this. When I get time to work on this today or tomorrow, I will post our results. I have just plain stopped before, but I haven't thought about suddenly walking the opposite direction and praising for following. Just behind my leg would be a great follow....ears down, relaxed, like you said. Will write later.....


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Cool - hey I noticed you're in N. Cal, wherabouts are you?

I have tried the "go in the other direction" approach before, but usually only took a couple steps, almost like turning around. The lady in the video says specifically to go 10+ steps otherwise the dog will just think it's a game, and I think my experience agrees with that.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm about 80 miles north of Truckee. Anyhow, Ucdcrush, just wanted to let you know that I spent some time on this tonight.......and......GLORY HAD A TOTAL TRANSFORMATION! Her eyes were practically glued to me. I combined what you said, with the links you posted for me, and this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Sgk7d_ABw

I'm going to be working on this daily, maybe I will start a thread documenting my dog's transformation from being an up front, pulling, running around in front of me sort of dog to an obedient follower at my heels! I'm so excited thank you! 

Hey has anyone seen David Dikeman's stuff before?? That video is a knockout...the technique works perfectly, you wouldn't believe it!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Used his stuff in pet class settings for years to some degree.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Wow, I haven't heard of this guy, I'm loading the video now







Whatever it is, I'll be sure to try it tomorrow. Thanks.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Ahh, just watched it! Very similar to the first video of walking the other direction, with even more emphasis placed on not paying attention to the dog -- just going.

This morning on our walk there was a strong distraction, a yippy little dog with its owner on a front lawn, zipping around all prey-like. As soon as my dogs perked up and stopped paying attention to me, I turned around and walked the other direction about 15 feet. After doing this twice, then proceeding back towards the distraction, they were much less interested in it.

What a cool and simple method.. I'll definitely try the square-walking method my next trip to a big park with a long line.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Right, except Dikeman just uses a regular collar. I have learned a lot from both videos....including the one you posted of the woman dog handler and slip collars. 

WOW! Thanks for sharing your experience from this morning. Yes, I am having luck with this too. I am now going to up the ante with distractions.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have come to like other methods of training better for my dogs. I have some concerns myself regarding all the collar corrections and never really felt wonderful about it in pet classes.... though we needed quick results and those did happen. Generally the dogs were on flat collars for Dikeman's method.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Cool, do you have some techniques you could share for "follow" and "keeping close"?? I'm all ears!


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I would like to see more of Dikeman's method, but the corrections seem to be "depersonalized" in a way. You are not telling the dog NO and yanking his leash (at least in the videos I've see so far) you are just going on your way (as the leader) and he will follow.. if he's not paying attention in order to follow successfully, he gets the consequence of a "correction" that occurs when the human is going one way and the dog the other.

There is a video on youtube about the "throw chain" method which is also purposefully depersonalized. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiNOy4_guw8

I would like to see how he teaches other commands like sit and down. If I had to guess, it's based on the human making a motion and the dog having to follow or it gets the consequences. I'm tempted to order the Command Performance videos but they are so old they are VHS only, I'd have to dig my old VCR out of the closet.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Modern technology makes things too easy.. just ordered 2 tape set for a bit over $12 shipped.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Buoyant Doghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Sgk7d_ABw


That method is straight out of the Koehler book, "The Koehler Method of Dog Training". I took a dog training class in 1977 that taught the Koehler method and everybody was using it back then.

That Borzoi in the video was something else.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

walking behind you. that's a good one.
i've never done that with my dog.
i'm going to try it. i'll let you know what happened.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Well, I guess I'm going to say it. This method of training is very controversial. It is also referred to as compulsion training, or punishment training.

There are drawbacks to using this (Kohler) method to train your dogs. You are training your dog to avoid punishment (the jerk of the collar in this video example). This can lead to a stressed, fearful dog who doesn't know when punishment is going to come next. You don't end up with a thinking dog. And you don't have a dog that enjoys his relationship with you, and wants to work with you because you are the world to him.

As for the "no reward" part, again, how does your dog know he's doing the right thing if he isn't told. Well, he only way he knows if if there's no pain. 

I'm going to use agility as an example. In agility training "no" is not used. Training is positive. Rewards are given freely. Dogs enjoy doing something that they otherwise avoid in nature. How many non-agility dog are going to jump an obstacle. If you watch a young dog or puppy, 99 percent of the time the dog is going to look for a way around a fallen log or a rock ledge. Dogs do not jump unless the need to. 

I would avoid this guy's videos. Try the square thing once, and then move on to marker training.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BlackPuppyTry the square thing once, and then move on to marker training.


I'm actually going to do the opposite! I've been doing marker training for almost 10 years, using my voice or a clicker, and mostly food rewards. I use a verbal correction, or negative marker, as a way to impart information to my dogs, but very little physical corrections. Halo has had a year of positive reinforcement training, and I think she could benefit from a bit more instruction on what NOT to do, although I think once she's choosing to heel I WOULD reward her because that's consistent with my overall training philosophy. I just think she could benefit with some consequences for non-compliance, and it's not going to harm her because she's had little punishment so far, and is a very confident dog.

The main reason I want to try it is because while she actually walks really well with me most of the time, she's awful on grass, which for some reason she finds intensely interesting - I cease to exist in favor of sniffing every square inch. I've never worked with her on a long line before, but there are some big grassy meadows at the lake where I could practice this.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Yes! Let us know doggiedad! You seem to have quite a bit of training knowledge, so share any techniques you discover along the way with us! Sincerely, Christina


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I think a combination of both marker training and corrections may be used. I have been struggling with teaching follow with marker training and positive reinforcement, rewarding to no avail for several weeks now. My dog simply chooses to ignore me in exciting places (like grass, parks, etc.). I am quick to reward her when she is close, but then she never learns what it is I don't want her to do (jet off in her own direction and ignore me). Stuffing pieces of cheese down her throat as she keeps coughing them up is not helping her learn what I do not want her to do. 

I have been using marker training for several weeks now, and in one night, I tried Dikeman's method, and my dog has had a complete turn around in behavior on a long line. 

Thank you for your posts Black Puppy and Samba...but just writing on this thread to correct while not providing alternatives is not helping me. I am all ears, all eyes, and I am willing and wanting to try anything that anyone suggests. So....as you suggest, Black Puppy, I will continue marker training (and rewarding) along with Dikeman's method. Any other suggestions would be cool! Thanx.....sincerely....Christina


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom.....you mentioned verbal corrections (which is what I do) and negative markers. What exactly would a negative marker be? A leash correction? A stinky smell?







In all seriousness though....


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

A verbal correction and a negative marker are the same thing - I didn't mean sometimes I use one and sometimes the other, I meant that it can be referred to by either name. Sorry if that wasn't more clear. Some people call them a "no reward" marker.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I've ordered the videos, and watched what I could on youtube, and plan to take what's useful (given how I want to treat my dogs) and will continue using marker training.

I would probably not use the "throw chain" method, or the one where the dog wraps itself around a pole if he's heeling too far out. There maybe even rougher methods on the tapes, so I might not use much from them at all.

I DO like the method where the dog has to pay attention to me, otherwise I might suddenly be going the other direction. That one honestly seems to have worked with Tuki who also spent lots of time sniffing grass. This weekend I would make sudden turn-abouts, and did some of that square work. Once she was following me well, I'd mark and treat.

She's sniffing a lot less and following me better. We went to our all-positive agility class later in the day and she was still a great performer, stuck with me while off leash and would race away from me to touch the target when given the word.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Sounds like things are going well for you Ucdcrush! You are getting what you want out of Dikeman's and others methods and sorting out the stuff you don't want to use. Kudos to you for researching and using good judgement based on your abilities and your dog's personalities.









Like you, I will take what is useful and will continue using marker training. I also don't plan on using the "throw chain" method, as it seems complicated, and I would probably screw it up....which would be very bad and set us back. Interesting concept, but a little too much for me I think. 

How far back is Tuki when she's following you? When things are going REALLY well, Glory is about a step behind me, or just at my heels/side.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

She is just at my side-- not behind me. Before I started sudden turns and turnabouts, she would be at my side but often sniffing the grass, where if I had to move one way or another sometimes I would run into her. Now she seems more aware of where I am, and less sniffing.

If my dogs never follow behind me, I'll be OK with that. It seems to be asking a lot because their view is obstructed back there, and for dogs that love to see what's going on (particularly for Riku who tends to be revved up/tense on walks), it's got to be tough. I think I'll be OK with them paying more attention to me so they are less likely to fixate on some animal that comes into the scene.

I've read a bit on reactive dog training, and one thing that keeps coming up is the "watch me" command to take the focus off the other dog. This sudden turnabout method seems to be teaching something similar. Turnabouts paired with marker training may be a good combination.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Yeah, I hear ya, it's better to have them at our sides and paying attention to us, than behind us. Behind me would be nice, but figuratively following me is more important.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

There is a guy in my neighborhood who has 2 former racing greyhounds.. good sized dogs. They trail behind him, almost like donkeys plodding along behind a miner. I'm not sure if he trained them to do that, or they are just like that (I'm not sure how growing up in a racing environment may have affected them). They are super calm dogs though which I think is a key factor in following their trusted human.

Tonight I started reading "Chill out Fido", a book about getting dogs to calm down. I haven't gotten to the practical exercises part yet, but I did "spring" a walk on Riku while he was dozing next to me. I slowly put his harness and leash on over a couple minutes, petting him, he was almost falling back asleep. Then we went to the door, still with quiet praise and petting, and out for a short walk. What a dream, a total follower. Hopefully we'll make a habit out of it. I am trying to make as many calm, peaceful associations with "walking" (the harness, leash, opening the door, stepping through) as I can. For him I think it will make working with his reactivity easier..


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Ask your neighbor about his dogs when you get a chance...if it was trained or if they naturally follow. Also, you said you purchased some Dikeman DVDs.....can you give me the link to what you purchased??? Thanks!


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I got my Dikeman tapes yesterday and today hooked up my VCR to watch. It's definitely different from any clicker work I've seen done. Anything the dog does wrong he gets corrected for, and when first teaching the command Dikeman makes the dog do the command - no luring.

For sits, he lifts up on the leash and pushes down on the rump while saying sit. For down, moves the legs forward and the dog down. For recall, there is no bait, he simply reels the dog in after giving the recall word. 

It is just very different training than is seen nowadays. I can see some inexperienced dog person who can't read dog language, trying to force a dog down and the dog biting the person for his efforts.

As for this method vs. positive only, that's for another thread I'm sure. Though this method does seem to get results based on reading reviews of people who have used it (yes I know purely positive methods can get results too).


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Hmm....interesting, thank you!


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## CampdavidKS (Mar 25, 2010)

*The latest on David Dikeman's training...*

Hello everyone. My name is David, and I know a thing or two about this Dikeman guy...
I would be glad to answer questions about his newest evolution of the Command Performance System that you have been talking about. It seems hard to believe that it was almost twenty years ago when it came out and sold millions of copies via National TV and HSN, QVC etc.
There are actual 20th anniversary DVDs available that are personalized and signed as well. 
The reason I am posting is that I think it would be illuminating to discuss some of the aspects of why I put the program together the way I did, and then what changes I have made using the data of literally tens of thousands of dogs that have been through the program, plus my own research over the last 20 years since the system was first introduced. 
I am currently working on a new training project as well that will rock your socks!
If anyone has any questions or comments about the CP system, I would be glad to answer questions.

thanks for your comments, and I have posted a few pics from my training facility.

David D.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Hi David -- welcome! I have wondered where you were since those videos came out, I googled a bit but didn't find much. Looking forward to reading your input on things.

Can you highlight any of the major revisions to your system?

I'd love to hear what you have to say about leash reactive (or just "dog reactive") dogs. I have noticed with my reactive dog, that since I have doing sudden turns if he gets too far ahead, his attention on the other dog doesn't seem to be as great because he is now paying attention to where I am -- so he is less reactive. I haven't done it in a structured way, with a "decoy" dog yet, just running into dogs on walks, and even with random teaching sessions there seems to be some improvement.

Are there other tips you can give for a dog that starts barking, whining etc. on a leash when approaching another dog?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Ucdcrush said:


> (yes I know purely positive methods can get results too).


 
But they can take SO LONG!


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Hi David, if it's you, I'm totally stoked that you replied to my thread! I just wanted to let you know that I have been training my dog Glory on the first and second part of the Command Performance tapes, and she made a complete turn around in less than a week. We were previously in an 8 week obedience class trying to accomplish roughly the same thing with treats to no avail. I am amazed that such a simple concept can help Glory and I enjoy our bonding time during walks where we both seem to be "connected." I have been trying to find ya on the internet, and so far only found ya here - http://www.dikemandogtraining.com/ 

So where can I find these signed DVDs from this Dikeman guy? I would like to keep you posted about our progress using your program. Perhaps we should start a "Command Performance System" thread.....


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I found those youtube videos very interesting! I am wanting to try this with my dogs. I will also use it in combination with marker training.


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## CampdavidKS (Mar 25, 2010)

*Dikeman Dog Training*

Edited for commercial sales. Jean, Admin

Also, I would like to start a thread here to talk about what I have been working on as a result of my (gulp!) 35 years of training. (I was three when I started (LOL). 

I don't know who really runs this show or how to set this up, but if any here would like to help put it together for me, I think it would be really fun.

Be well,

David

You can write me at [email protected]


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## CampdavidKS (Mar 25, 2010)

I will reply back with all details on available DVD's to your email requests.

I didnt want to use up forum space with all that, so email me if you would like info.

DD


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

CampdavidKS said:


> Edited as above, Jean....
> Also, I would like to start a thread here to talk about what I have been working on as a result of my (gulp!) 35 years of training. (I was three when I started (LOL).
> 
> I don't know who really runs this show or how to set this up, but if any here would like to help put it together for me, I think it would be really fun.
> ...


Hi David, I'd look forward to reading about your experiences. The best place to create a thread would be on the Training Theory & Methods section: Training Theory & Methods - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Just hit the "New Thread" button on the upper left 

As you may have read here (in other threads, more than this one) there is a lot of blanket criticism of the older methods, which people tend to refer to as "correction based". It's almost as if people believe that this training STARTS with corrections/punishing the dog until it does the right thing, as opposed to using corrections when a dog knows a command but chooses not to comply.

I'm sure if you start a thread there will be a lot of discussion from all sides. I for one have seen the older methods work very well, quickly, and without food. :thumbup:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

with a dog walking behind you i'm not so sure
you're controlling your dog or how much control you
have over them with them being behind you. the same
for them being safe, the dog is behind you, you
can't see them and things can happen ina instant.

if i were going to teach my dog to walk behind me
i think i would start out by having by dog sit in front 
of me. then while facing my dog i say "come" and walk backwards for a few paces. i would repeat walking backwards for a while. at some point
after my dog is sitting in front of and i say come, 
i would walk backwards but turn around within a few steps.
i would come up with a command for this action.
i probably would say "stay back".

i'm just guessing at all of this. i would use the method i described
unless someone else told me something better.


BuoyantDog said:


> Wow! Thanks Ucdcrush! I think you understand where I am coming from. It is an easy way to control your dog and make sure they are safe. I will check out superdog and dogstardaily. Let ya know what I think....


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I suppose it depends on the setting, yes you are right doggiedad. I am mainly thinking about hiking, particularly with traps out there.


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## CampdavidKS (Mar 25, 2010)

*Command Performance on DVD!*

I have been trying to find ya on the internet, and so far only found ya here - http://www.dikemandogtraining.com/ 

So where can I find these signed DVDs from this Dikeman guy? 



Email me @ [email protected] and put Command Performance DVDs in the subject line, and I will send you all the info.

Thanks everyone for their comments and questions.

David


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