# Prong collar issue...



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm having an issue with the prong. We are using them during bitework and this is the only time I have the issue. Fur, and last night some skin, is getting snagged not on the prongs, but in the hole that the martingale chain goes through when it is tightening. I believe as it is feeding through the hole during a correction, it is drawing in some hair/skin and with the dog being so active, as compared to regular obedience work, it seems to have enough holding force to pull out hair. Last night this gave my male some abrasions and pulled hair where the two plates sat, and my female it actually cut a small piece of skin off that slid into the plate hole... some alcohol, neosporin, and sleep and they are ok, but I'm trying to figure how to avoid this happening in the future. I only do quick pops on the collar and never "string them up" as I've people do before. I was thinking of attaching some loose canvas or something from the first to last prongs to shield the neck from the chain sliding through the hole to prevent this from reoccurring... any thoughts on if this would work or an alternative?


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Just trying to learn, Hunter, but couldn't you use an e-collar instead. I think that that would be the way I would go, if the prong was causing injuries.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

clearcreekranch said:


> Just trying to learn, Hunter, but couldn't you use an e-collar instead. I think that that would be the way I would go, if the prong was causing injuries.


I have and use e-collars, but for certain exercises the ecollar is not as good a tool. For example, doing a bark and hold, I *need* the physical restraint and precisely timed correction for "getting dirty" when the dog is sent in. The ecollar can deliver the correction but not the restraint. I could use a regular leash but getting the timing right would never be as perfect as the self-timed prong for this particular exercise.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Also, my female has sensitive skin/fur... the fursaver is creating a dull, shortened hair ring where it sits, in an otherwise very pretty coat


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok, I figured that you had a reason. My husband would say 2 words, duct tape! Which not really seeing what is happening..... but I did recently put some on the inside of my shoes that were causing a blister, worked like a charm. Maybe it will make the ring have just enough slip to not snag?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I use a prong in protection, haven't had this problem. Is the collar placed high enough? The only thing I can think of other than the fit being wrong is that the collar is too low, on an area of the neck that has more loose skin and fur. I put mine right behind the ears.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

clearcreekranch said:


> Ok, I figured that you had a reason. My husband would say 2 words, duct tape! Which not really seeing what is happening..... but I did recently put some on the inside of my shoes that were causing a blister, worked like a charm. Maybe it will make the ring have just enough slip to not snag?


Sitting here pondering I think I have an idea for how to prevent it. Maybe if it works I'll market it and make millions... billions even.

I think part of the issue is the prong is pretty snug... if you think about when you give a correction, with a loose prong collar, the plates will be lifted off the skin before the chain begins to slip. For a tighter collar, then martingale action is happening while the plate is very close to the skin. I think this is why the hole is snagging hair and sometimes skin. It got my female good at some point last night so I must find a fix or not use the prong in bitework. 

The annoying part is I have no idea when it happened... I found it when I took the prong off after we were done training. At no point with either dog did they give me an indicator that they felt it or were hurt. My female screams like a banshee even when on a flat collar and high in drive so she's particularly difficult to determine with. I made the mistake early on of inadvertently teaching her if she screamed I'd stop correcting (which she has used to great advantage until a few pro trainers pointed this out to me), so in the course of fixing her manipulation of me I'm somewhat used to her screaming anyway.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Can you get pics of how you fit it? I fit mine pretty darn snug and have never had this happen.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I use a prong in protection, haven't had this problem. Is the collar placed high enough? The only thing I can think of other than the fit being wrong is that the collar is too low, on an area of the neck that has more loose skin and fur. I put mine right behind the ears.


Oh yeah its high enough... and tight enough... possibly too tight. Adding a link on either dog makes it too lose though and over the course of working it slides down. Its *right* behind the ears now, infront of that big lobe of muscle tissue on the sides of the back of the neck. I know of two other dogs this has happened to at our club... a crazy gsd and an equally crazy mal


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I would think a fitting issue (too tight), or a defective collar. Never had any problem like that.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Can you get pics of how you fit it? I fit mine pretty darn snug and have never had this happen.


Don't have any pics, but the martingale basically draws a straight line from the back of one ear to the back of the other. B/c I keep them tight they remain in place for a full training day. The only time I've ever had any issues with this is doing obedience in bitework, and using a platform for bark & hold positioning. I actually had an extra link in the male's collar for the past few weeks and didn't have this issue. I think I probably need to be inbetween links for the perfect fit.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I can't imagine how it happened...

I hate to fight with the prongs to put and remove the collar, so what I did was to remove the chain and sew a strip that close the collar with a clip and two rings to attach the leash and support all the pressure (not the clip). This way I don't have to deal with metal prongs and cold fingers, the collar is always snug and also I don't have any chain sound telling the dog a correction is about to come. Only disadvantage is that it works only as a dead ring, you can't use it as martingale, but my female is sensitive enough not to need it anyways.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Catu said:


> I can't imagine how it happened...
> 
> I hate to fight with the prongs to put and remove the collar, so what I did was to remove the chain and sew a strip that close the collar with a clip and two rings to attach the leash and support all the pressure (not the clip). This way I don't have to deal with metal prongs and cold fingers, the collar is always snug and also I don't have any chain sound telling the dog a correction is about to come. Only disadvantage is that it works only as a dead ring, you can't use it as martingale, but my female is sensitive enough not to need it anyways.


I can get away with that in obedience but not in bitework. I also like the fact that the martingale spreads out the pressure more effectively when that is most important (high drive bitework).


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

This is not exactly what I describe (mine is homemade and made to be able to use a cheap plastic clip) but it may work for you, IF the chain is causing the damage.

Curogan Dog pinch collar & nylon loop-without any nickel HS [hs nylon loop -50040 (3.99mm)] : Rottweiler dog harness, Rottweiler dog muzzle, Rottweiler dog collar, Dog leash, Rottweiler


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Catu said:


> This is not exactly what I describe (mine is homemade and made to be able to use a cheap plastic clip) but it may work for you, IF the chain is causing the damage.
> 
> Curogan Dog pinch collar & nylon loop-without any nickel HS [hs nylon loop -50040 (3.99mm)] : Rottweiler dog harness, Rottweiler dog muzzle, Rottweiler dog collar, Dog leash, Rottweiler


Its definitely the chain on both dogs. Male has his injury directly beneath where the plates sit on both sides, and females collar was rotated a bit on purpose, but one plate grabbed skin. I know for sure it is the issue with her, as the skin was jammed up in the chain link and between the link and plate.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Loosen the collar, Hunter.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Loosen the collar, Hunter.


I will be adding a link and just deal with any adjustments as we train. I still might try to make a barrier between the chain and neck though, just to be on the safer side.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

IMO, I'd say add a link and use two leashes--one on a flat collar for the restraint and one for the correction line. Or use flat collar and electric.

Or, at the very least, have the line also hooked to a backup collar--I've seen too many prong collars pop off in the work.

I know a lot of trainers like the extra edge of drive and aggression that comes from agitating a dog on a prong collar, but I've heard a couple of trainers now make a good case for why that is actually counterproductive (Michael Ellis is one of them).

Also, aren't those two "knobs" behind the skull actually bone?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

the "knobs" behind the skull are the wings of the Atlas, C2


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> IMO, I'd say add a link and use two leashes--one on a flat collar for the restraint and one for the correction line. Or use flat collar and electric.
> 
> Or, at the very least, have the line also hooked to a backup collar--I've seen too many prong collars pop off in the work.
> 
> ...


Interestingly, I recently stepped down a prong size on both dogs, as did another club member, and the smaller prongs seem to be more prone to this from the limited observation

I'm using the prong only for the exercises above, the rest of the time we're on a fursaver. I'm pretty sure its a case of too tight though, so I'll add a link to each. I'm also usually hooked up to the fursaver too depending on what we are doing.

I'm talking about the large neck muscles that feel somewhat like a human bicep at rest. From the photo below I'm guessing its either the brachiocephalic or sternocephalic muscles... feels like one lump of muscle to me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I often use a prong in protection to keep my dogs from pulling me off my feet (I have a chronic joint problem in my left hand and right foot). My trained dog is of course under control and obedient when I command him to be, but sometimes the dog *needs* to be lunging on the end of the leash (SDA titles for example, this is how the dog is worked and how the dog competes). For trial I can handle them but in training my focus is not always just staying on my feet!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I often use a prong in protection to keep my dogs from pulling me off my feet (I have a chronic joint problem in my left hand and right foot). My trained dog is of course under control and obedient when I command him to be, but sometimes the dog *needs* to be lunging on the end of the leash (SDA titles for example, this is how the dog is worked and how the dog competes). For trial I can handle them but in training my focus is not always just staying on my feet!


Right now, we are always heeling on the field. So, the dogs are under control, with the occasional pop to correct noncompliance. The other main use, is preventing the dog from getting dirty. Thats pretty much all we are using it for. I'm eager to move the prong back to just obedience


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I suppose you will have to consider how often you are training and If you always put the collar in the exact same place. Doesn't much matter if they are quick pops, it matters how many times you are correcting. Ideally, a collar correction results in compliance, so, there would not be more than one or two in a session. if it gets to where there are fifteen or twenty "quick pops" on a very tight collar, it would not be a surprise to see some injury.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I suppose you will have to consider how often you are training and If you always put the collar in the exact same place. Doesn't much matter if they are quick pops, it matters how many times you are correcting. Ideally, a collar correction results in compliance, so, there would not be more than one or two in a session. if it gets to where there are fifteen or twenty "quick pops" on a very tight collar, it would not be a surprise to see some injury.


If I had to guess when it happened, it would be from a big pop when the dog came in too hot to the helper. With my female, I do three rapid pops in a row usually. She responds much better with that than one stronger pop. I see a bunch of people give a quick pop, but they hold the tension on, and that seems to cause much more problems, both physically and handler/dog relationship wise. I try to make my pops as quick as possible and this seems to work very effectively without any loss of drive or change of mood.

As far as training frequency, at least twice a week in protection, sometimes much more. Obedience is almost every day, but about half the time is with a prong, and most of that, right now, is seated teaching a calm hold of the dumbell. The corrections there are extremely mild since we are in zero drive and with zero distraction. I'll probably retire the prong for a few weeks while this heals up


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Secondary Question... should I do anything other than neosporin and alcohol during the healing?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Leave out the alcohol???

Seriously, try Dial soap. Much kinder.


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## trapper66 (Nov 16, 2010)

I say use a flat collar for restraining and another leach on the prong for corrections


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Leave out the alcohol???
> 
> Seriously, try Dial soap. Much kinder.


I know it stings like an sob, but both dogs were calm as I cleaned them up... No outward signs of pain. And it's the standard in antimocrobials. Read too much about antibacterial soaps being a waste


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> If I had to guess when it happened, it would be from a big pop when the dog came in too hot to the helper


That is not something that happens from one correction. It is from repeated misuse. Collar fitted wrong, too many corrections, never moving the collar etc.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Hunter,

Correct me if I misunderstood....

You say when doing protection the prongs are on all day, because they are so tight it is a pain to take them off and on.
You do protection at least twice a week, sometimes much more.
The prongs are injuring your dogs.
You are using alcohol to clean the wounds, you know that it stings, but since the dogs don't put up a fuss, you are going to keep doing it.

I get from you that you are very proud of your dogs, but it seems, to me, that maybe there should be a little more there from you than just pride.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> Secondary Question... should I do anything other than neosporin and alcohol during the healing?


Tissue always heals faster and cleaner when it is kept moist and covered. I never use alcohol or peroxide. Some of that stuff actually damages healing tissue. Neosporine should be fine for keeping it moist and clean.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> I know it stings like an sob, but both dogs were calm as I cleaned them up... No outward signs of pain. And it's the standard in antimocrobials. Read too much about antibacterial soaps being a waste


Alcohol is only to clean surface not ot be used in open wounds. Absolutely not standard.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Hunter,
> 
> Correct me if I misunderstood....
> 
> ...


All day as in, when training... Not like I put it on when waking up, and remove at night... So a few hours. I do bitework twice a week, train almost every day in some capacity sometimes with and sometimes without prong

Alcohol works great as an antiseptic. I use it on all my cuts, which is why I know it stings. Peroxide doesn't sting but has fallen out of favor for wound cleaning.

I don't know exactly what you're trying to imply, but I have an idea, and I think you're quite off base. I put my dogs' well being before my own. Implying cleaning a wound with alcohol is abusive, that is ridiculous.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Catu said:


> Alcohol is only to clean surface not ot be used in open wounds. Absolutely not standard.


It's an abrasion, not a gaping wound


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> That is not something that happens from one correction. It is from repeated misuse. Collar fitted wrong, too many corrections, never moving the collar etc.


The one on the female happened from one occurrence. the collar didn't re- pinch one area again and again... Also, never happened before when training the same way


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Tissue always heals faster and cleaner when it is kept moist and covered. I never use alcohol or peroxide. Some of that stuff actually damages healing tissue. Neosporine should be fine for keeping it moist and clean.


I don't use peroxide but do use alcohol and iodine... Which has been the procedure for every serious laceration I've ever gotten, which has been many. Then I neosporin for a week or so


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK, well, you asked...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Hunter,
> 
> Correct me if I misunderstood....
> 
> ...


Also, I never said anything about it being hard to remove or put on... I don't find them any more difficult to remove than any other collar


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> OK, well, you asked...


Sorry, thank you for the advice. A few posts here came off as offensive so my guard went up. Felt that I needed to explain further


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No prob, I would just use the neo if you already are. It's probably not necessary but IMO it makes kind of a shield covering the wound. I'm partial to it for myself but mostly b/c I always get cuts or burns in places I don't want scars (like getting line burns on my ankles!). Using some of the things people commonly use to clean wounds can cause more scarring, and letting a wound "dry out" dries out the healing cells and makes it take longer.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> No prob, I would just use the neo if you already are. It's probably not necessary but IMO it makes kind of a shield covering the wound. I'm partial to it for myself but mostly b/c I always get cuts or burns in places I don't want scars (like getting line burns on my ankles!). Using some of the things people commonly use to clean wounds can cause more scarring, and letting a wound "dry out" dries out the healing cells and makes it take longer.


I just use alcohol or iodine if I've got it, when I'm first cleaning it up. Then neo... Have been told polisporin (spelling?) works better than neo but never had any of that. Having had some pretty substantial wounds, I pay close attention at the ER to whats being done .


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Here's something interesting that I heard from some trainers over sea.. Kinda makes you think..

They never put the prong collar on snug or tight, ever.. They say it should be loose.. When the collar is constantly snug, it causes conflict in the dog.. because there's always pressure..


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

G-burg said:


> Here's something interesting that I heard from some trainers over sea.. Kinda makes you think..
> 
> They never put the prong collar on snug or tight, ever.. They say it should be loose.. When the collar is constantly snug, it causes conflict in the dog.. because there's always pressure..


That's the thing... You know what they say the only thing that two out of three dog trainers agree on...

A loose prong will slide, and can't deliver a quick pop. A tighter prong will always have some pressure. Both ways require careful and different approaches and might or might not be good for a given dog


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I know that old saying! 

However these two and others in their club have been very successful! So maybe they're onto something..


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

G-burg said:


> I know that old saying!
> 
> However these two and others in their club have been very successful! So maybe they're onto something..


To counterpoint (for the sake of discussion) 2 diff previous USA world team members showed me how to fit and size the prong, and we are getting rapid progression aswell


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think there's potential to over use it or to keep constant tension on it regardless of fit. I agree in that I don't think that taking out a link or so should really alter the behavior of the dog all that much. To me the issue is when it is constantly used, or having to be used repeatedly following a command, or having constant tension on it. I fit mine high on the neck b/c I don't want it getting all tangled in the fursaver or leather collar, it's not that the corrections don't compute if the collar is not super tight.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> To counterpoint (for the sake of discussion) 2 diff previous USA world team members showed me how to fit and size the prong...


But they obviously taught you something wrong if the collar is injuring your dog. Why not give another way a chance? 

The reason I don't use a tight pinch is because it dosen't give consistent corrections. As you work the dog the dog's neck expands. So the corrections at the beginning of a session are very different than those at the end. BTW, the guy that convinced me that a looser pinch has it's merits was a world championship winner several times over.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Fast said:


> But they obviously taught you something wrong if the collar is injuring your dog. Why not give another way a chance?
> 
> The reason I don't use a tight pinch is because it dosen't give consistent corrections. As you work the dog the dog's neck expands. So the corrections at the beginning of a session are very different than those at the end. BTW, the guy that convinced me that a looser pinch has it's merits was a world championship winner several times over.


Added a link and moved the prong down so the sore spots had some rest. Before I even walked on the field I was being told to raise it till I explained why it was low. With the extra link the issue is not reoccurring and our coach was giving corrections from behind harder than mine. I was actually correcting harder but less often lastnight and that worked well. No issues


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

G-burg said:


> Here's something interesting that I heard from some trainers over sea.. Kinda makes you think..
> 
> They never put the prong collar on snug or tight, ever.. They say it should be loose.. When the collar is constantly snug, it causes conflict in the dog.. because there's always pressure..


How do they keep it in the correct position on the neck, or keep it from rotating?


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think there is a point where the collar can be loose but not turn around the head. i.e. it can be tight but not so tight as to give a constant pinch.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> Added a link and moved the prong down so the sore spots had some rest. Before I even walked on the field I was being told to raise it till I explained why it was low. With the extra link the issue is not reoccurring and our coach was giving corrections from behind harder than mine. I was actually correcting harder but less often lastnight and that worked well. No issues


Cool, glad it worked out.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Fast said:


> Cool, glad it worked out.


Switched to neck-techs so I'll let everyone know how they perform


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## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

Everyone once in a while I come across a post that ticks me off and compels me to reply. I don’t know anyone involved (or might – I don’t know individuals screen names) and I intend no disrespect – however this thread is PETA/HSUS/Prong-banners dream! I’ve been in SChH for over 5 years, worked 3 dogs and titled 2. I am also a USCA and DVG certified helper. I’ve been a member of 3 clubs, trained in several states and been to a bunch of seminars AND NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF THIS HAPPENING BEFORE – EVEN ONCE. There is clearly something wrong and I don’t get why it requires posting something in a public forum to reason through it. Especially when doing so (even though in this case it seems the prong is not being used correctly) would certainly be used by those who’d have prongs, schutzhund, e-collars and even animal training, ownership or breeding banned. <rant off>

I think this is a situation where people need to think things through a bit and stop doing something just for the sake of doing it, without first considering implications or applying some critical thinking to the whole process. The generally held consensus for prong collar use (for pet training and SchH OB) is that it should be fitted as high on the neck as possible. This might make sense for those 2 areas, but it doesn’t mean it makes sense for every situation. In protection, the direction the correction is made from is a completely different angle and position (from behind the dog) in relation to the dog than in OB (from above the dog). Add to this that many people (for reasons I don’t understand) work their dog only on the prong in protection – so the dog is always pulling against it. So, if it is on tight and up high, as applied in OB, it is going to be constricting AND pulling/sliding down the neck at the same time. Once it gets low enough on the neck, which tapers out, it is going to be constantly putting pressure on the neck – which just doesn’t make much sense to me. Seems to me, the best way to teach the dog to ignore collar corrections is to make it presence constant in the dogs conscious, while the dog is in a high drive state and willing to ignore it to get to what it wants. That seems very counterproductive to me. Even if using 2 lines (one to a harness, one to a flat collar) – having the collar up so high and delivering a correction with interferes with what? Maybe the strong barking we are seeking to create/maintain?

So, how about we use 2 collars (flat and prong), or (better in my opinion) a harness and a prong with an additional link? I personally have 2 prongs – one for OB and one for Protection. The protection has an extra link in it – this makes all the difference. If I goof up and use the wrong collar for protection, I can tell as it restricts barking.

I also noted where it was mentioned that the prong size was recently decreased. This is known as “more pinch per inch” and is generally held to increase the correction applied. I’m guessing (and I could be wrong – but probably not) that the dog was blowing through the corrections applied with the next larger size of collar, so the intent is increase the level of correction by moving to a more aggressive collar. This tells me there is already a training and obedience issue to begin with. The collar isn't going to fix this, proper training and control will fix this. Further, as a helper, I’ve even seen 3.25mm stainless prongs blow apart, but the thinner, smaller linked ones simply cannot handle the stress of the dog in drive, his direction, the direction of the correction (from behind) and they will let go. Now you have an issue where there is a loose dog (probably one with control issues to begin with) on the field, with NO collar. This puts other people, but mainly the helper, in harm’s way. I think working the dog in protection on a prong only is just plain dumb.

Regarding leaving the collar on for any length of time while not actively training – I see it as an accident waiting to happen and would go as far as to say it is laziness to not take it on and off as required. You haven’t lived until your dog gets a prong hung up on something – such as crate door. Believe me they’ll find a way to do it - It can and *will* happen. Simply put, I don’t believe a dog should EVER have ANY collar on when not under immediate supervision – there is simply too much at stake should it get caught on something. This goes for fur-savers or even flat collars as well.

If this seems strongly worded I apologize. I just find that in situations where we’re going to use tools like prong collars a bit of critical thinking goes a lot long way. It’s only fair to your dog and your fellow trainers who might not like to see isolated cases of misuse (either on purpose or not) mess up their ability to use a great training tool because of these other situations.

-Calvin


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> Switched to neck-techs...


Why?

Let me get this straight. You had a collar on your dog that was screwing up your dog. You changed the collar and it was giving you "no issues". Why do now want to change the dog's collar again?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Fast said:


> Why?
> 
> Let me get this straight. You had a collar on your dog that was screwing up your dog. You changed the collar and it was giving you "no issues". Why do now want to change the dog's collar again?


Mostly bc my prongs were not stainless, and I live near salt water. Secondly I already have non-martingale necktechs and they are much stouter. The action and function is the same


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cledford said:


> Everyone once in a while I come across a post that ticks me off and compels me to reply. I don’t know anyone involved (or might – I don’t know individuals screen names) and I intend no disrespect – however this thread is PETA/HSUS/Prong-banners dream! I’ve been in SChH for over 5 years, worked 3 dogs and titled 2. I am also a USCA and DVG certified helper. I’ve been a member of 3 clubs, trained in several states and been to a bunch of seminars AND NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF THIS HAPPENING BEFORE – EVEN ONCE. There is clearly something wrong and I don’t get why it requires posting something in a public forum to reason through it. Especially when doing so (even though in this case it seems the prong is not being used correctly) would certainly be used by those who’d have prongs, schutzhund, e-collars and even animal training, ownership or breeding banned. <rant off>
> 
> I think this is a situation where people need to think things through a bit and stop doing something just for the sake of doing it, without first considering implications or applying some critical thinking to the whole process. The generally held consensus for prong collar use (for pet training and SchH OB) is that it should be fitted as high on the neck as possible. This might make sense for those 2 areas, but it doesn’t mean it makes sense for every situation. In protection, the direction the correction is made from is a completely different angle and position (from behind the dog) in relation to the dog than in OB (from above the dog). Add to this that many people (for reasons I don’t understand) work their dog only on the prong in protection – so the dog is always pulling against it. So, if it is on tight and up high, as applied in OB, it is going to be constricting AND pulling/sliding down the neck at the same time. Once it gets low enough on the neck, which tapers out, it is going to be constantly putting pressure on the neck – which just doesn’t make much sense to me. Seems to me, the best way to teach the dog to ignore collar corrections is to make it presence constant in the dogs conscious, while the dog is in a high drive state and willing to ignore it to get to what it wants. That seems very counterproductive to me. Even if using 2 lines (one to a harness, one to a flat collar) – having the collar up so high and delivering a correction with interferes with what? Maybe the strong barking we are seeking to create/maintain?
> 
> ...


I can appreciate your concerns... I'm the kind of person that will ask everyone so I can weigh all the input and draw my own conclusion... I think the injury may have been overstated on my part out of my hypersensitivity about my dogs... Im the one who is at the vet at 2am if my dog pukes. I took a link out of my male bc I was bringing him down from ~88lbs to about ~83 and it was not staying put anymore. For what it's worth I've gotten told I'm not correcting hard enough a few times recently by some very very experienced guys. When they held the lead while I commanded the dog, they showed me the difference between my correction and the correction I should have given.

As far as leaving it on, prongs are only on when we are training... Go on a few mins before we start, come off a few minutes after the session is over... If we have a few sessions in a row, they stay on. Never on for more than a few hours. It's not a question of lazieness, I'm just wary of collarwiseness 

I don't expect you to take my word for it, but I can halt either dog off leash in bitework on voice alone, with enough authority in the command. The desire right now is that a very calm command gets immediate compliance


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