# Vet visits, vaccines and other stuff.



## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Hello,

As many of you know we finally got our pup home and she is doing great.
I have few questions for you so bear with me, please.

Here is her "medical history" so far:
[*]Born 10/20/2007 
[*]Dewormed on 11/17/09, 11/29/09 and 12/11/09 with Strongid 
[*]Vaccinated on 11/21/09 with Schering-Plough Intra-Trac 3 (Canine Adenovirus Type 2, Parainfluenza, Bordetella) 
[*]Vaccinated on 12/4/09 with Fort Dodge Duramune Max 5 puppy shot (Coronavirus, Distemper, Adenovirus type 2, Parainfluenza, Parvovirus) 

We haven't taken her to the vet yet since the breeder gave me a certificate signed by her vet that puppies had a checkup on 12/12/09 (day we picked her up).
My plan is to wait with the next Distemper/Parvo booster shot until new year (4 weeks after last shot) and then another 4+ weeks after that. 
We were thinking about rabies shot after she is 6 months old.
Does that sound right?
Should we take her to the vet just for a visit anyway? 

We were told we need to get her started on heartworm preventive right away (vet's office assumed we would be there for a visit right after we picked her up). We are in CT and temperatures around here are pretty low this time of year so I dont think there are any mosquitos around. Or should I do it anyway? I figured taking my time and not put more chemicals in her may be beneficial.
Which one would be best for her? Interceptor is what the vet recommended.

Also flea/tick preventive is probably a good idea but not sure if that can/should wait till later as we get closer to spring.
Is it better to do that or just vaccinate against Lyme disease? Breeder told me that other than required boosters and rabies this is the only vaccine she would recommend.

Even though I read few posts addressing all those issues I am still very confused about all this stuff. I know its better to prevent than cure, but then there are many cons to all those chemicals on/in the pup so I want to make the best decision possible.

One thing I worry about is her socializing and being outside in general prior to having all the boosters done. sort of catch 22.

Please let me know what you think about all this. Help a newbie out. LOL

Sorry for another long post but I am afraid there will be more questions coming.









Thank you in advance.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm very excited for you and your family on your new addidition!!

Most breeder contracts require a vet visit within 72 hours of puppy arriving at their new home, I think it's a good idea no matter if it's in the contract or not.

I'll let someone that lives in your area speak to the heartworm/flea/ "stuff" I live in NW Oregon and do neither in the fall/winter months (if at all). 

Dr. Jean Dodds' Recommended Vaccination Schedule
http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

thank you Barb, thats actually where I got my vaccine "schedule" from.









Breeder told me she didnt require us to go to the vet. its not in the contract.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The problem with going to the vet, is that you will probably have an argument over vaccine schedule. I'm not telling you not to go to the vet, but assuming that your dog was healthy, well-taken care of, etc., then I understand why the breeder made that recommendation.

Dodd's vaccine schedule is by far better than most of the schedules that vets use.

PLEASE do not use the lyme vaccine, it's a terrible vaccine, and has the potential to ruin your dog for life. As for tick control, I'm still trying to find a way to do that without chemicals. 

When my dog was a pup, I still took her everywhere and socialized her, but that was a risk that I took.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I usually do 3 sets of puppy shots and then rabies at 6 months. 

You do not need hw preventative at this time of year. Here is a good article to help you understand the lifecycle: http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/heartworm/

You also don't need flea/tick meds at this time of year. I have never given them to any of my animals because they are pesticides and cause adverse reactions and I believe that may also be contributing to the high rates of cancer in dogs. Instead I use Bug Off Garlic during tick season and use NEEM oil spray and shampoo to get rid of fleas (although I've only ever found one on Rafi).


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks Ruth.

Puppy is actually scratching a bit but it could be the dry air. we tried to look in spots she goes after but hard to see anything in all that fuzz.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Dogs scratch for lots of reasons and one of them is nervousness! Rafi will often scratch when he gets into a situation where he's a little uncomfortable.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

interesting, so maybe she just scratches because she is still nervous (we only had her for 3 days now).


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTThe problem with going to the vet, is that you will probably have an argument over vaccine schedule. I'm not telling you not to go to the vet, but assuming that your dog was healthy, well-taken care of, etc., then I understand why the breeder made that recommendation.
> 
> Dodd's vaccine schedule is by far better than most of the schedules that vets use.
> 
> ...


I dont know how I missed this post previously. Thank you Lisa.

yeah, breeder is sure puppy is healthy so didnt want me to spend the money on the vet just for ha-ha's. 
and yeah, I know there will be some battles with vets about vax schedule, raw feeding or spaying, but if they get really pushy I will find a new vet. 

I read that Lyme vax is pretty rough on dogs and thats why I asked those questions. I will have to research Bug Off Garlic more but seems like many people on here use that stuff successfully. 
is it also safe to use human-grade insect repellan on a dog?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I was lucky that my vet was ok w/ me wanting to go with Dr. Dodds protocol. She did however mark on Karlo's records that I denied the Lyme, lepto and I had to pay extra(office call) to have the rabies vax given on its own. My state law is rabies by 6 months, so at the end of Karlo's 6th month he was given the rabies vax.
One thing that is important, is doing a fecal every couple weeks when you first bring home a pup, as pups usually have worms. Even if they are clean one time, do it again to be sure.
Then it may be a series of treatments to be sure you've gotten those nasty things taken care of.

NO on the human grade insect repellent!!!
Make up an essential oil spray for when you are out in wooded areas and check your pup for ticks often during the tick season.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

My girl has battled with lyme vaccine damage for more than a decade....

I'm at a loss for a preventative. I used Frontline for years, effective only if I give a bath about a week before application. But Indy reacts to it, part of her disease process from the vaccine. The best product I ever used was one type of shampoo that they don't make anymore.

I would be afraid to use a human product, but frankly, I've never thought of it. I'm still practicing with essential oils.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

negative on the OFF! then.







good to know

now, I read somewhere on here that any vaccines given prior to 7 weeks old will be ineffective as mothers antibodies will fight it off. is that correct?
in that case I would have to assume that what my girl got so far is not working anyway?
are those vaccines I mentioned in my original post too much? there was quite a few different things injected all at once.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you think, Lisa that the Lyme vac is safer now? I know my vet has on every receipt a reminder of heartworm, lyme check and she is so pro lyme vax. What is your feeling, not worth the risk? Our area is supposedly one of the red zones...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: smykenow, I read somewhere on here that any vaccines given prior to 7 weeks old will be ineffective as mothers antibodies will fight it off. is that correct?
> in that case I would have to assume that what my girl got so far is not working anyway?
> are those vaccines I mentioned in my original post too much? there was quite a few different things injected all at once.


As far as I know, it's very individual on the pup and the mother, when the maternal antibodies wane. They just keep vaccinating hoping to fill any gap of protection. There is a period where there will be a gap though, from my understanding.

I wouldn't vax for Cornona. We just had a pup somewhere on this board that had a vax at a young age, and has protective titers for parvo and distemper.


yep, here it is, maybe bcannie can post some more info:
initial reactions to vax at a young age:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1273323

titer results:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1288008&page=1#Post1288008


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

onyx'girl, I think that the lyme vax is safer now, but not safe. All the problems that were associated with it when it first came out are still there from what I have observed and read. BUT, dogs are still dying from it, and being injured by it. The current dog vaccine is similar to the human one that was pulled from the market because of numerous problems. The ospA vaccine in humans was found to cause a debilitating arthritis in roughly 1/3 of humans with a certain genetic make-up. There is no reason to think that the same is not true for dogs, from what I've seen. And there are still dogs that are dying from kidney failure from it. Indy's problems can't be categorized, and who knows how many other dogs fall into the category of uncategorized illness from that stupid vaccine.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

so should I get titers done before vaccinating? or should I just get distemper boosters at 12+ and 16+ weeks and do titers thereafter?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Your choice. 

Cheaper to revax, so that is what most people do. For those that really want to go the minimal vaccine route, they will vaccinate, and then titer later. If the titers register, then the vax took and the pup is good to go.

Some believe that after 4 months, the immune system is developed enough that that vaccine should be adequate to provide immunity. Sooner is more of an unknown.

I am incredibly and severely vaccine-shy, if I had a pup, I would vax once, titer, and then never again if protective levels were reached. If they weren't reached, I'm not sure what I would do, as further vaccines might not be effective. I would vaccinate for rabies after 6 months, as you plan too, and then boost a year later. If possible, I would get around licensing laws so that I wouldn't have to deal with the rabies requirement as my dog aged. 

I hesitate to recommend any vaccines because I know how powerful they are, both positive and negative. But I try to be balanced about it on the forums.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

hmm, I dont even know if my vet does titers or not. I may give boosters per Jean Dodd's schedule and then titer. what is the cost of titers, btw? and how often should one do them?

where do you guys buy Neem Oil? she keeps scratching and even though I cannot find anything on her skin I may just as well help her out. does that sound right?

Is Bug Off Garlic safe to use on puppies?


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

> Quote:she keeps scratching


She could be allergic to her food or something in her environment.



> Quote: I cannot find anything on her skin


I think some of the mites are not visable.

Was she scratching when you first brought her home or has it increased since then? 

It seems our puppies got itchy when they started to change coats but your girl would be a little young for that still.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

hey mike how are those night time potty breaks going?? ))

Here's what I do, and I'm on the shoreline in mosquito/tick infested lyme)

With Masi, I did finish out her puppy boosters per the vet , I rabied just before the 6mth mark, because I had to register her with the town, and they require a rabies certificate. I do not do corona,(vet said no need for it here),,while I didn't want to do it, I did do the initial Lepto (vet says there IS that around here) 

I did the rebooster at one year (and had to re-rabie per law at one year),,but will now titer. 

Some dont, but I titer mine every year. My aussies who are 9 and 10, resepectively, haven't been vac'd in probably 4 years. (rabies yes, it's law, but when I do rabies I go with thimerisol free vac, it's a one dose vial of vac, vs the multiple dose vials which contain preservatives like mercury) 

Titering costs me around 50$ per dog, a tad costly, but I don't want to put more into their systems than I have to.

I do HW from April 1 thru Dec 1. unless we are having a really mild winter, I may give them another one in Dec (not this year tho) 

As for itching,,it very well may be dry air, or alot of puppies tend to be itchy, because their coat blows/changes frequently when they are really young. I like Salmon oil (grizzly salmon oil) which you can add to food. 

As for tick/flea preventation..I use nothing. again, I don't like putting it on them, it's going to sink into the skin and if you get a bad reaction, well there's no getting it off)) I haven't had fleas on my dogs in around 15 years,,ticks yes, and I do alot of woods walking, but I do nightly tick checks during tick season,

I used to do the Lyme Booster, but haven't in years. Masi had the initial start up one, but I most likely won't do another. I've never had a dog with Lyme Disease (knock on wood) Mine always tend to come up positive for anaplasmosis (equii erhlichia, another tick disease) which the booster wouldn't cover anyhow..

Hope that helps some..If you find a vet who is "up" on stuff, you shouldn't have a problem going the route you want when it comes to vac's and titers.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks Diane.
Yeah, only 2am and 5am potty breaks. not too bad. LOL

when you say $50 per dog is that for all diseases or just one?

I may actually do what you did as far as vaccines go. puppy stuff and just rabies after that.

Scratching might have increased since she is with us but there was definitely some right off the bat. temperature in our house may be a bit higher than at the breeders so air may be dryer. if it is mites what can I use to help her? neem oil spray and fish oil capsules? I thought of giving her a bath in case she did bring something from the breeder and go from there.


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## Bcannie (Jul 8, 2009)

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/bedlingtonpictures/vaccine.pdf

The above link is one my homeopathic vet referenced besides Jean Dodds. Very good read and has a frequent question part that answers alot.

In one of the articles, it states that Lyme vaccines are really only effective for a few months, and they do much more harm than good. We don't have Lyme where I live, but I don't think I would give it even if it were a problem here. I will never vaccinate the same after all my research!

Also, the titer I did was more expensive that the simple ones, because i wanted a more detailed breakdown. After she is older I will be able to do the one that simply states "yes or no for probable imunity." 

Some vets say every three years for titer is probably ok, but if you board your pets you will have to do it once a year.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Dr. Schultz's research shows that, for a live virus vax (distemper, parvo), once the dog is effectively vaccinated, for most dogs, that should provide lifetime immunity. 

Titers don't measure memory cells, so even of titers fall, that doesn't mean that the dog can't mount a proper immune response. 

I don't titer because I will not revaccinate. For those considering revax, titers can help you time that, though they are imperfect. Frankly, I'm in the camp where annual titers are unnecessary too, but it's an individual decision, comfort level of the owner-thing, and annual titers are far better than annual vax!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Scratching is also a calming signal.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

mike, the titer test was for I believe, just distemper and parvo, 
($50)which are the most prevailant of diseases. 

When you go for your annual exam, I do a snap4x which is Heartworm, lyme, canine and equii erhlichia. which is pretty prevailant around here..

I doubt she has mites or 'bugs' at this point. Like Jean said, which I forgot, scratching can also be a calming signal..

If I 'had' to do vac's I would go with the puppy, the one year and then the three year protocol. ALSO, I forgot to mention, when there are multiple shots involved,,say a booster & rabies ,,,my vet will not give those at one time,,spread them out atleast 3-4 weeks.

Like I said I do titer every year, because I'm paranoid )))) but it IS a personal choice

AND, since I tend to go to alot of shows, I also do the nasal bordatella, (kennel cough) on Masi, I don't on my aussie, she's got a funky immune system so she gets 'nothing',,,


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Our girl will not be boarded, probably ever. My parents live close by so she will stay with them if needed.

she not only scratches but "goes after" whatever is bothering her with her teeth as well.
I am feeding her raw chicken (1st week) and I hope she is not alergic to it. If she was there would be visible signs on her skin (rash or something), correct? We look through spots she scratches and do not see a thing.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I would consider this as dry skin first before allergies. I would add some fish oil to her food and see what happens for a few weeks. Sh may also be transitioning to the raw diet too.

I don't feed raw so I don't know about that one.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The teeth thing sounds like it's more of a real itch than a nervous itch.

Maybe try a different protein to make sure it's not the chicken? Allergies or sensitivities can be very subtle.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

since this is the first week on raw I didnt want to get too crazy with variety at the beginning.
we will try fish oil first and then add new protein on Sunday.

going back to the vet visit. should I take her in anyway now or is it OK to wait till she is due for the first booster? other than scratching everything is going great.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Personally, I would take her to the vet. I think it's a good practice to have a new puppy seen by your own vet, even if she's had a recent checkup by the breeder. As others have said, most contracts require it, but even though yours doesn't, I'd make an appointment anyway. If your vet does not agree with the vaccination schedule you plan on, hold firm. If you want, you can discuss your concerns and ask why your vet recommends whatever he/she does. Over vaccinating can definitely be a problem for some dogs, but I do think the puppy series is important because she still has an immature immune system and is at much higher risk of contracting a serious or fatal disease than an adult dog. 

The last time I did a titer was for our old girl Sneaker, so this would have been prior to 2000. Back then I remember it being around $80 and I'm sure it's more now, but everything here is more expensive. For an older, health compromised dog it was worth it, but for a young healthy dog I'd go ahead and use the Dodd's schedule. Most vets here don't do Corona anymore, although they did at one time. Halo actually tested positive for it, and our vet said he thinks a large percentage of the canine population probably would but that they don't see dogs getting sick from it. She had some digestive issues at the time (she had giardia, which is REALLY common in puppies) which was why she had a bunch of tests, but he didn't think Corona was the cause and was not concerned about it.


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## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

With Siena, we did the general series of puppy vaccinations for the first year. She had reactions to much of them, so now we do the titers. We had the DHLPP (?) titer in Feb and it was about $75 and she came out good with the antibodies. We will check again in 2 years when her rabies is due and to titers for all at the same time. With her inflammatory condition, the vet recommends against any unnecessary vaccinations.

I recently checked out Jean Dodd's website and she recommends the first series of puppy vaccinations, then titers after that. 

My 'traditional' vet said people on this board were 'crazy' for saying not to vaccinate... and early on, I listened. Then I got more informed, did some of my own research, talked to other (i.e. Holistic) vets and agreed that my 'traditional' vet was the one who was vaccination crazy herself. We don't go there any more to the 'crazy' vet! Siena has less issues now, but something always came up when she was vaccinated (and hospitalized twice (2 years) after the kennel cough vaccine). 

Now I am one of those who recommend against vaccines after age 1. I do, however, get my vaccinations (i.e. flu) as I don't have any issues with them.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Its not even "my vet" technically. I have never done business with them.









So I will go with Jean Dodd's schedule for now and titer after. cost wise, if I titer every 2-3 years, it will work out to be the same thing as if I vaccinated annually not to mention health benefits.

Thank you all for your help. I dont know what I would do without this forum.


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

Mike,

Off topic I know, but have you started checking around for puppy classes yet? They sometimes fill up quick so good to sign up early.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

honestly I havent yet. with all this vax stuff I thought I had to figure that first to be able to set the "schedule". at what age do you take them to puppy class? pup has to have all the "required" vaccinations done before allowed in there, right?
I dont even know where to go for that other than Petsmart.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

off topic, place I like is Tails U Win in manchester, IF you can get into a class (and I see there is a puppy k class) with Leslie Nelson, she is really good.. Also across the mass line, is Its Pawsible, Beth Ostrowski is REALLY good,,both have websites))


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

well, now I do. LOL


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no no petsmart))) if you can get to its pawsible, beth and her helper are wonderful positive trainers,,she also runs a doggie daycare ..she's "into" the big breeds, as in dobies but has an aussie as well (I see her at agility trials often and have taken a couple of seminars at her place) 

I would wait until after the last booster and I"m sure rabies is required to join a class.. I like Tails, but sometimes the place can be very chaotic , but that might be a better drive for you than over the border into mass..


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

yeah, Manchester is right next door. 

Rabies is not required for puppy class, it says on their application.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Most puppy classes don't require rabies. The classes I took are for puppies from 10 weeks to 18 weeks old at the start of class. Rabies is usually given after 16 weeks old, so most of the puppies aren't old enough anyway. I'd start puppy class as early as you can complete whatever vaccinations are required by the facility.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ahh ok, then go for it !! I started masi later so she already had a rabies'


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

> Quote:if you can get to its pawsible, beth and her helper are wonderful positive trainers


I have her DVD and wish she was close enough for me to take her classes


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

If the classes you like are full, ask for recommendations for other classes & trainers - note, not all big box store classes are bad, sometimes you'll get excellent trainers running them (for various reasons - just go meet the trainer or watch some other classes the trainer is doing) or doing community centre classes etc.

You don't want to miss out on the socialization aspect of puppy classes at the right age because the ones you really wanted were full - you can take _almost_ any puppy socialization class & get some good out of it (just have some clear guidelines, eg, that you will only do positive techniques with your girl & never allow the 'bad' trainer to handle your pup, that you'll drop the class if the trainer allows inappropriate behaviors from other pups etc)

I thnk you're holding out in the photos department


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

yeah, I am bad with pictures. will take some soon and post as my "payment" for all the excellent advice I get on here.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

for shots, worming and heart worming i
followed the advice of my breeder and Vet.
i took my pup to Vet several times a week
for treats, handling and socializing. now when we go to Vet
my dog gets excited about being there and he's not reactive
to the other animals there.


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