# Our 8 months old adopted GSD : stubborn & difficult to train



## Peter (May 2, 2010)

Hi,

I am a newbee. We adopted our GSD when he was 6 months. We found him in an asylum.

Immediately, he chose me as his "boss". First week, he was calm.
Later on things became more difficult : he can not tolerate other dogs, bites in our hands (gently of course), pulls the leash like a lion .

So I decided to take training. The local dog instructor used the 100% rewarding and ignoring method (do not know the official name) : so lots of treats to get the dogs attention. no choke collar, just treats ...

I felt that this method would not work for our GSD.
When he had a full stomach, he was obviously no longer interested in his boss.
After 5 weeks, I changed my course.

So I contacted the Belgian "dogwhisperer" (known from TV ! :laugh.
He is also a professional police-dog trainer (full time).

Change of system : a gentle leader to learn my dog not to pull the leash : this is working !!

Now I completed my second (private) lesson : with a long leash : "come here"-command and sit near my feet.

I have been training this for the 3rd time (alone) : and there is 50/50 chance that my doggy listens . So boss is getting frustrated.

He does no longer run away thanks to petsafe stubborn e-fencing.

FYI : dog has been castrated 4 weeks ago.

I have learnt that the method of my new dog guru has better results : proportional punishing + rewarding with voice, petting and now and then a treat.

My question is : apperently I have to punish him quiet severe (roll overs & other dominant actions) in order to get to him.

My trainer suggests a e-collar. 

Does anyone have a simular experience ? :help:

Kind regards from Belgium.

here is a little movie of our GSD : 






Peter


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Peter said:


> My question is : apperently I have to punish him quiet severe (roll overs & other dominant actions) in order to get to him.


No. Forcing your dog to physically submit to you, as in the "alpha roll", is not a good idea. Do you want your dog to obey you only because you're stronger than him and can make him, or because he WANTS to? What if you weren't stronger than him and he knew it? Do you think you'd still be able to get him to comply?

There is some information in this sticky thread that may be helpful to you: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ant-understand-become-better-pack-leader.html

And another: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hods/89990-how-do-you-define-being-alpha.html

And yet another: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html


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## Peter (May 2, 2010)

Thank you Debbie, I will read this.


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## Peter (May 2, 2010)

Interesting (NILIF & alpha), but I think I have been there.
When I call my dog, and he does not listen. I walk to him in a calm but persuaded way.
Then he thinks I want to play. he put his head between his forelegs and starts the game "catch me if you can".
I have to catch him, because I have to go.
I can not ignore him. So the only way seems to be : raising my voice and getting frustrated...
On the other hand : we do not allow him to go upstairs. When he did, ignoring him or pulling him back downstairs were not successful.
In a moment of anger, I throw (sorry) my shoe to him. Now, he no longer dares to go upstairs .

For me : a successful method.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Peter said:


> Interesting (NILIF & alpha), but I think I have been there.
> When I call my dog, and he does not listen. I walk to him in a calm but persuaded way.
> Then he thinks I want to play. he put his head between his forelegs and starts the game "catch me if you can".
> I have to catch him, because I have to go.
> I can not ignore him. So the only way seems to be : raising my voice and getting frustrated...


Actually, raising your voice and getting frustrated (while completely normal and understandable under the circumstances!) are not particularly helpful - it doesn't teach your dog anything. In the the above scenario, where you KNOW he's going to play the "catch me if you can" game, and you really do need to get him so you can leave, I'd keep him on leash or a long line. So when he ignores you, you can reel him in. 

Many situations can be successfully managed so the dog doesn't have the opportunity to disobey in the first place, while you work on training better behavior. If he's allowed to continually practice bad behavior it becomes a habit, and as you've seen, he's made evading you when you call him a very fun game for him. Make that stop working for him, and make coming to you much more rewarding than blowing you off.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

You've only had him for 2 months, I wonder how much time and effort you've put into teaching him what you expect of him? Characterizing him as "stubborn" implies that he is knowingly disobeying you, that he understands exactly what you want, but chooses not to comply. Training takes time - it's highly unlikely that he fully understands the commands you've tried to teach him and has generalized them to all situations and circumstances in just two short months, even for a very experienced and knowledgeable trainer. 

I wonder also how much time you spend each day playing with him? He's learned how much fun it is for you to chase him, and if you're not spending much time playing with him on your terms, he's going to continue to get you to engage with him on his terms. How about turning his game around and teaching him that it's fun for HIM to chase YOU? That's one of the first games I play with new puppies. Teach him more appropriate methods of initiating play, or teach him that play will only be initiated by you and that you'll ignore him if he pesters you to throw a ball for him or play tug. Behavior that is ignored will eventually extinguish because it's no longer working to get the dog what he wants. 

One of the most simple and basic concepts of dog training is that behavior that is reinforced will continue. Attention is very reinforcing, even negative attention - you're looking at him, you're talking to him, you're engaging with him. So if he's not being recognized and reinforced in some way for good behavior, but continues to get your attention for misbehaving, you are never going to make much progress in his training. Well, unless you apply enough force and punishment so that he obeys because he fears the consequences if he doesn't. Is that the kind of relationship you want with your dog - fear and intimidation? Wouldn't it be better to not have to fight with him to obey, but instead for him to do so willingly and enthusiastically, because he WANTS to?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> My question is : apperently I have to punish him quiet severe (roll overs & other dominant actions) in order to get to him.


NO NO NO NO NO

You have a BEAUTIFUL and happy looking dog that you want to continue to love coming to you and being with you and learning from you.

You have a puppy who sounds like they had little or no training before you got him. He is a baby who REALLY doesn't understand. With a 'baby' mind and wanting to play and test boundaries.

I see you have children... when they don't listen or seem to disobey, is the ONLY way to teach them what you want, to be severe and roll the kids on the floor? You think that really is 'teaching' them what you wanted? Or just giving them and overwhelming OH MY GOSH WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON WITH DAD HE SOMETIMES HAS FITS AND GOES CRAZY!

Positive training (with treats) isn't permissive. There are still things the dog can and cannot do. Gentle Leaders work great! 

Think if you REALLY get time to exercise and wear out your new puppy, that will help alot...





 
Bonding with your dog and becoming a leader in a positive and firm way using treats and toys..... to have your puppy WANT to listen learn and obey rather than HAVE to obey is the better way to go.

One of the very best things to do is commit to teaching your puppy 'tricks'. They learn in a fun and positive way, and YOU learn how brilliant your dog is when you teach things right and they 'get it'.

Teaching a trick is the least important part of teaching a trick

You heard of clicker training? Ideal for teaching a puppy. And it's about US having to learn something new too, not just all the pressure on the puppy and what it needs to learn, us too!

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) | Karen Pryor Clickertraining


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

"Been there, done that, sent the postcard" - found Natural Dog Training - here's a couple of links :http://www.naturaldogtraining.com/ http://dogtrainersnetwork.ning.com/


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Welcome to the board. 

The good news is that you probably have not done irreversible damage yet. 

YOUR PUPPY IS NOT DEFECTIVE. It is a puppy. It is probably in the teenager stage. 

You have to be consistant. You can do this totally with positive reinforcement. 

Punishing a puppy for being a puppy is not a good thing. 

I have no problem when a pup does something you do not want him to, with saying Eh! and redirecting, or giving him a command and then praising him for it. 

Your dog will not come when called. Until a dog is solid on a command, you should not use the command unless you can enforce the command immediately. For example, if your dog knows how to sit, then you should be able to say SIT and have the dog Sit. When it does this reliably right next to you on lead, then you can start moving a step or two off and giving the command, SIT, and if he does it, PRAISE, if he does not move in and help him sit. Asking him to SIT from across the room comes in time and with more training. 

This is what you are doing wrong with the recall -- COME. Never give the command without a long line on the dog so that you can give a little tug and remind him to come. And even if you have to tug, praise / treat when he does come. 

If the dog sees that you lose your kool, yell or punish, he will be that less likely to come to you -- especially if you have ever called him to punish him. Do not do that in any event. If you MUST punish a dog, go and get him. If you call him and then punish, even just a change in your tone of voice, when he comes, than you are punishing his come. 

Never give a command more than once. Give the command and if he does it praise (treat if you are using them now is the time). If he does not help him. SIT. Dog looks at you questioningly, move your hand down his back to his waist and apply a small touch there until he sits, and then PRAISE, GOOD SIT, Yes. Eventhough you helped. He will get it a lot faster. 

You have had this dog for two months. You have an e-fence, you have a gentle leader, you want to put an e-collar for training, the pup has seen you frustrated, giving commands that are not followed through, not completely trained, and rolled over in frustration. 

And this puppy is still getting himself acclimated to the routine, in this time, you have also knicked his nads. Well, he is certainly starting off on the right paw. 

Tell yourself ten times every day that your dog is a puppy. He is NOT stupid. He is NOT stubborn. Make a commitment to train yourself to be a leader. Leaders do not force, they encourage following. Leaders motivate by rewards. Leaders are consistant, not necessarily dominant. Leaders are confident. 

My youngest puppy is currently nine months old. While she still pulls, she is getting better. You can do this without force if you commit to doing so. 

Otherwise, you can probably train the dog the old fassioned way with jerks or with shocks, or pokes. I would only hope that if you do choose to go with an e-collar, prong, head collar, or choker, that you at least commit to using it as a tool, to be discontinued when the dog has learned the behavior, and not as a crutch.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You threw a shoe at him?


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## klgraf (May 2, 2010)

I am new to this board too, and a new dog owner. Our family adopted a 6 mo old German Shepherd female from our local shelter. We worked with a trainer twice to learn some basics of what we should teach her, but I've found two other resources incredibly helpful: 1. The Dog Trainer, a FREE podcast on iTunes - great tips on all aspects of postive training for your dog. Here is a web site of the show: The Dog Trainer :: Quick and Dirty Tips  . I've also learned quite a bit from reading Cesar's Way by Cesar Milan. One of the main point he makes is to spend lots of time exercising your dog. Our GSD is much better behaved if we get in a 1.5 - 2 hour walk in the morning. I'm lucky I can do this as I am a stay-at-home mom. Good luck...I'm sure things will get better.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

klgraf, welcome and thanks for rescuing! I would get into some formal obedience classes, much better than internet sites to teach with distractions and other situations, the bond with your rescue will grow strong.
Walks are fine, but the GSD needs mental exercise as well. 
Lay their meal in a track and let them search it out instead of just eating out of a bowl.
Play a game of tug, let them win and after a few sessions end it while they still want more, that is mental and physical exercise.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Read what Selzer wrote. Then read it again. Then read the list of CD, RN, CGC, and other titles he/she has trained. Then read the whole post 2 or 3 more times. When you e-collar/prong collar/alpha roll an 8 month old pup, it's a sure sign that the dog isn't learning because you're not teaching in a way he understands.


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## Peter (May 2, 2010)

Thank you so much for all the answers. This is cool.

It is good to remind us that he is still a puppy, though he is already huge.
I understand that I gave you the impression that I am very demanding and hard on the dog.
This is not the case. (My English is not so accurate.)
I walk him everyday for +- 1 hour and we socialize him as much as possible. 
We see little improvement.

Here is a typical situation :

When I went to our new dogtrainer for the first time.
He watched me and my dog walking to the training place.
Then he came to us and said : "I will try to shake your hand and say hello, watch carefully your dog .."
The dog almost attacked him.
He came back with a small device that could spray pressurised air (does not hurt him, just should impress him).
When he approached, the dog got wild again. So he unleashed some air towards him.
The dog did not move for an inch ! This is very rare he said. 
Now we are training to walk him near the trainers rotweiller without getting into the red zone.

I shall read all your suggested links.

Hope to learn more about the trainingprocess.

Regards,
Peter


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

klgraf said:


> I am new to this board too, and a new dog owner. Our family adopted a 6 mo old German Shepherd female from our local shelter. .............. *One of the main point he makes is to spend lots of time exercising your dog.* Our GSD is much better behaved if we get in a 1.5 - 2 hour walk in the morning. ...... Good luck...I'm sure things will get better.


:thumbup: though I'd have to add if I did an hour on a leash with my dog, they would still be bouncing off the walls.



> Then he came to us and said : "I will try to shake your hand and say hello, watch carefully your dog .."
> The dog almost attacked him.


My dogs will attack new people too. Glory B will REALLY do it, jumping right up on them and into their face. Bretta will only do it with the people she knows and loves.

So I guess I'm saying do you know it was from 'protection' (which my guess is no way from a young unsocialized dog) or from 'fear' (which is more possible from an unsocialized and insecure dog) or from a HEY THERE HOW ARE YOU (which is my dogs, they leap with love) which is the attitude I want. But I need to work on the behavior of my jumping dogs cause APPARENTLY most people don't like a leaping 70 pound GSD coming right at their face.

HEY, I have titles on my dogs too


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Welcome and thanks for saving that dog. I am not sure what his background is, but often in rescue dogs they have a "survivor" period where they need to get used to not having to be in charge of:

Getting their own food
Finding a safe place to sleep
Being protected

They have never had anyone do it for them, so they are reluctant to give that to someone else - what if that person doesn't do it? Then they NEED those instincts. How will they know the person is going to do that? They do not. They especially do not if the person that is supposed to be protecting them is scaring the pants off of them with their corrections. 

So you give them time, and space, and use NILIF, and make yourself the giver of all good things. And eventually the relationship evolves to one where they trust that they don't need to rely on only themselves to survive, but have a partner who is going to do that for them, forever. 

Good luck!


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