# Dog Fights? New behavior...



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

Hey everyone!

I was hoping not to have to post here but seems I'm back. I figure a bit of advice couldn't hurt the situation any further.

So basically 2 nights ago I was doing a bit of training near the food container, since I was using the food as a treat. I have done this numerous times in the past with my two dogs and never had any issues. However once I stopped giving treats momentarily the two engaged in a fight.

Initially I assumed it was our older dog who has been prone to food aggression in the past (when in a bowl, not with treats) however when looking back on the situation he was the one trying to get away and only defended himself.

There was no tumbling and no throat grabbing however I believe this is only due to that fact that our other dog was defending himself. Had he just run away I do not know what would have occurred. We have had spits in the past in which things would be settled in less then a second but this was something else. 

For my part I waited until I could grab my dog (the one I believe started it) and grabbed her scruff. Then I forcefully put her to the ground. I did this for my own safety as if I had let I truly think she would have bit me had she been given that chance. I then basically had to put all of my weight on her to keep her down and eventually she submitted. She then turned on her back and licked my face.

We then kept them separated at this point for a solid 10 minutes. In which they both were taken outside for a break (mine on a leash) and once our other dog was inside we played fetch. I know this was likely not the correct thing to do but her posture and behavior was very intense and tail was stiff and high. After she was tired I put the leash back on and they both got along fine.

After this I obviously have not done training with them together and my dog is not allowed next to the food container while I get there food. Which has been working great with no issue.

The next day everything went normal and great, they played and ran around and all the normal stuff they do. I assumed it was a one time thing.

Then today my mother was coming home from work and I can only presume it was the excitement that got them started, they did it again. 

This time was very easy to break up compared to the last time. It was still a fight but when I yelled "NO" at my dog she did stop for a second but resumed. I again did the side submitting and she immediately did it. Then I let go and she did fine and they went to say hello to my mother with no further issue.

So I'm doing my best to change everything that might have triggered both events but I want to know if this is an age or puberty thing. 

Murdoc is around 8ish (he's older) Male, and dominate but only when messed with, and Olivia is just turning 1, normally submissive, and female. My dog is the one I assume has been starting both fights.

I've read a few articles on the dominance when they come of age and just want to know how I should be proceeding with this. As I can only assume this is what is going on.

Once the fights happen my dog changes, like a light switch. She is a whole different dog. When she is not in the fight, she licks me, plays with Murdoc and does great with my 5 year old brother. However in the fight all she wants to do is get back into it and bite whoever is restraining her. 

This whole thing has been very alarming, as we've again had spits of normal dog behavior but full dog fights we've never had.

It's not something I can hire someone for because it's not something that just happens again and again. I could do the whole treat scenario again and it wouldn't happen.

I normally don't side submit but it's the only way to calm her down. I have to force her to be still and then everything is ok. I've tried other stuff but this is the only thing that calms her down. She is a fearful dog for reference if that helps any.

She is not dog park friendly (doesn't enjoy making friends in large groups) but she never starts a fight when a dogs approaches her. She always runs away behind me if they are trying to start something.

Any advice?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sounds like she gets so excited she loses control and resource guards whatever gets her all revved up,food,a person,whatever.The best thing to do is to be proactive and give her something else to do.Have her sit or go to her place (any command that she knows) BEFORE any potential exciting event.If you're consistent it will become her default behavior - whenever the exciting thing is about to happen she'll be conditioned to sit(or the command you've chosen) until she's calm.Calm praise.
Please don't pin her down.It will frustrate her further and may very well result in a bite.You want calm and self control,not to pick a fight with her.If you slip up a firm NO! or HEY! will snap her out of it.Then give the command and praise calmly.It would be a good idea to have both dogs sit and be chill for a moment.
It's a rather common behavior with multiple dogs in close quarters.They feed off of each other's excitement and it can escalate.It doesn't have to be a big deal.You can condition them to calm themselves.


----------



## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

First things first, the dominance theory has been debunked a few years ago. The whole alpha thing, submissive, Cesar Millan, etc, was found out to be untrue. 

Food aggression, fearful aggression, resource guarding, all these things can escalate quickly. If I were you I wouldn't be thinking of it as a one-time-only thing. 
You should look for a professional trainer asap. 

And I agree with dogma13, please don't pin her down. This whole "pack leader" thing does. not. exist. !!! By doing so you're worsening the problem, when in fact you should be helping your dog overcome his/her insecurities. The act of pinning her down can take a wrong turn, she can try to bite you, she will sense you're nervous, please don't do it.

Look for a professional trainer, but one who doesn't think you have to show your dog who's the 'alpha leader'.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Grabbing for the scruff is risky, especially with a frantic dog. I've seen people get bitten badly multiple times reaching for collars, neck, scruff etc... You might try keeping a short drag line on her until you can sort the situation out. I wouldn't play games post fight either. Secure her or perhaps try obedience work to change her focus. Be aware some dogs can give the appearance of being relaxed while looking for another "opportunity".


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Some dogs fight once and liked it so much- thought it was great exercise and stress relief- they'll seek to do it again. 

There are a few ways to approach it. Muzzle the offender in high arousal scenarios until you can trust her. This will keep you and the other dog safe. Nobody likes getting bitten.

I train a "stop" word that is reinforced strongly with positive punishment. That word means every dog in hearing needs to stop what they are doing, and look to me for what's next. 

Obedience, and controlling the level of excitement is also critical, as posters before me pointed out. 

It's critical to control that arousal. While Cesar Millan may not spout out the right jargon, he can read dogs really well and is a master at limiting a dog's arousal/excitement. He's not perfect (who is) but if I want to see someone control multiple high-energy, "edgy" dogs, I will re-watch some of his shows. It's the body language I look for, human and dog.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

All good points above.Nigel made an important observation.Just when you think all is well the adrenaline may still be pumping.Watch for stiff body language and dirty looks HEY!and send them off in different directions,even behind a gate or different rooms for a while.


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> Sounds like she gets so excited she loses control and resource guards whatever gets her all revved up,food,a person,whatever.The best thing to do is to be proactive and give her something else to do.Have her sit or go to her place (any command that she knows) BEFORE any potential exciting event.If you're consistent it will become her default behavior - whenever the exciting thing is about to happen she'll be conditioned to sit(or the command you've chosen) until she's calm.Calm praise.
> Please don't pin her down.It will frustrate her further and may very well result in a bite.You want calm and self control,not to pick a fight with her.If you slip up a firm NO! or HEY! will snap her out of it.Then give the command and praise calmly.It would be a good idea to have both dogs sit and be chill for a moment.
> It's a rather common behavior with multiple dogs in close quarters.They feed off of each other's excitement and it can escalate.It doesn't have to be a big deal.You can condition them to calm themselves.


I have to agree with that. 

She gets very excited when certain events happen and I have noticed this. Normally I do my best with getting her to do a command and she great with this. When my mother came home it was unexpected as I normally grab her collar so she doesn't try to kiss my mom when she's bring stuff in.

Thank you for the advice on pinning her. This is one of the main points why I wanted to ask. It was a automatic response both time from me (I have two younger brothers and wrestling is common so I suspect that's why.) 

I will do my best to do what you are suggesting should this happen again. As I stated the second time it happened she did respond to the command momentarily. I'm hoping since I've drastically changed routines that this will not happen again.

I am glad to hear that this isn't something that I need to be super worried about however. These are my first two dogs so I tend to over ask on the questions.

Thank you!


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

gsdworld7 said:


> First things first, the dominance theory has been debunked a few years ago. The whole alpha thing, submissive, Cesar Millan, etc, was found out to be untrue.
> 
> Food aggression, fearful aggression, resource guarding, all these things can escalate quickly. If I were you I wouldn't be thinking of it as a one-time-only thing.
> You should look for a professional trainer asap.
> ...


(Already responded to most of the points below)

I do not believe in the alpha theory just to make that clear. The pining was an automatic response as I didn't know what to do. Which is why I'm asking because I know that that response was incorrect.

I've trained Olivia only on treats her whole life, so please do not think that I believe in such practices. 

I can look for a trainer but as stated there isn't any that would be able to help the situation. We have one trainer her who has helped a dog aggressive dog, but our situation won't happen while someone else is present. All the others don't work with "aggressive" behaviors.

Thanks!


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

Nigel said:


> Grabbing for the scruff is risky, especially with a frantic dog. I've seen people get bitten badly multiple times reaching for collars, neck, scruff etc... You might try keeping a short drag line on her until you can sort the situation out. I wouldn't play games post fight either. Secure her or perhaps try obedience work to change her focus. Be aware some dogs can give the appearance of being relaxed while looking for another "opportunity".


I'm aware of the risky behavior, as stated it was an automatic response. 

The issue is that she doesn't do this behavior normally so I don't think having a drag line would do much good. I will do training if/when this occurs again.

My dog once calmed down would not be looking for an opportunity. It's hard to describe since you can't see it but when calm she acts perfectly normal. It's a total switch, 2 different dogs if you will.

Thanks!


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

Muskeg said:


> Some dogs fight once and liked it so much- thought it was great exercise and stress relief- they'll seek to do it again.
> 
> There are a few ways to approach it. Muzzle the offender in high arousal scenarios until you can trust her. This will keep you and the other dog safe. Nobody likes getting bitten.
> 
> ...


When they fight it's not because they like it. Once the fight is over they both will play with each other and lay down. At least based on personal observation.

I can try muzzling but we can do the same situation over and over again without a fight. So I think adding a muzzle may add nervousness and more fearfulness which I don't think will help a situation. 

I am going to be working on the stop command as everyone seems to agree on that. We will have to see if this happens again but so far everything has been going well after the changes.

I have seen and read Cesar Millan and I have to agree. He very well can see what the energy with the dogs are and I have watched several videos based on aggression.

Thanks!


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> All good points above.Nigel made an important observation.Just when you think all is well the adrenaline may still be pumping.Watch for stiff body language and dirty looks HEY!and send them off in different directions,even behind a gate or different rooms for a while.


Agreed

This is basically what we did the first fight (the second was nothing compared to it.) As soon as my dog gave a look I sent her off. After 1 minute she did fine and was licking his face and all that.

Thanks!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just to note, once a fight happens, it takes a couple of weeks for the stress hormones to fully leave their body. I would keep them separate for a few days and let things settle down. 

I wish you hadn't closed your original account. I can't remember if you were the one looking for a trainer for aggression previously and now we can't look it up to find the back story.


----------



## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

Alyssa & Olivia said:


> (Already responded to most of the points below)
> 
> I do not believe in the alpha theory just to make that clear. The pining was an automatic response as I didn't know what to do. Which is why I'm asking because I know that that response was incorrect.
> 
> ...


I am sorry if I was harsh. I understand why you did what you did. 

My advice to you still is, look for a trainer who's experienced in fearful dogs. I have a dog who has fear aggression, and he was just like Olivia at the beginning. When he was afraid he would hide, he would try to run... until one day he unexpectedly changed his attitude and tried to bite other dog. I am telling you, they don't give any signs that their aggression is worsening until you actually see it. The innocent fear can escalate to bad aggression pretty quickly. If you think she was the one who started the fights, I think the professional training can help you as much as it helped my Golden and I.


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

My thoughts on getting a good trainer. A behavior or an event doesn't have to happen all the time to enjoy the benefits of a good trainer. First and foremost what I think a lot of people miss is that a good trainer isn't really training the dog. The trainer is training the human to train and work with the dog. Teaching correct technique, how to read body language, best equipment to use, etc. A good trainer benefits all dogs...not just aggressive ones. Please don't discount using a trainer because they "don't do aggression" issues. There are still benefits that will help throughout your dogs life. 

For most, a well trained obedient dog will be able to be handled to prevent many events like you described. I don't believe because something happens a few times, appearing randomly, that a trainer can't help. Just because they don't see it in action doesn't mean they can't give you the tools (guidance) to prevent or manage a given situation in the future. Isn't that what you came here for? Guidance on how to handle these things. Doing it in person is sooo much better. The trainer can see your dog and how the two of you interact. We love to help when we can but we can't see what an in person trainer will see. 

OP you stated that you female is usually fearful and submissive. Working with a good breed savvy trainer can help you to build confidence in your dog which in turn will help to a degree with her fearfulness. Temperament being mostly genetic she will always be fearful but you can help her be less so. 

OP you've already recognized that over excitement may be a trigger. On that note is your female spayed. If not, could she be coming into heat and getting snarky??? If she is spayed then that wouldn't be a factor. 

I hope these events remain one offs and with the changes you are making progress will continue.


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Just to note, once a fight happens, it takes a couple of weeks for the stress hormones to fully leave their body. I would keep them separate for a few days and let things settle down.
> 
> I wish you hadn't closed your original account. I can't remember if you were the one looking for a trainer for aggression previously and now we can't look it up to find the back story.


I was looking for a trainer but not for aggression issues as far as I know. The account closed out but the admin said all threads should still be there if you look them up. Here's the account if that helps you.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/471170-alyssa-martin.html

So far we haven't had any signs of aggression back, but I am being very cautious with excitement (which seems to trigger it) around them together. They've been sleeping and playing normally but like I said I am keeping a very close eye on things.


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

gsdworld7 said:


> I am sorry if I was harsh. I understand why you did what you did.
> 
> My advice to you still is, look for a trainer who's experienced in fearful dogs. I have a dog who has fear aggression, and he was just like Olivia at the beginning. When he was afraid he would hide, he would try to run... until one day he unexpectedly changed his attitude and tried to bite other dog. I am telling you, they don't give any signs that their aggression is worsening until you actually see it. The innocent fear can escalate to bad aggression pretty quickly. If you think she was the one who started the fights, I think the professional training can help you as much as it helped my Golden and I.


You weren't harsh at all. I did just want to clarify that that is not normally something I would do 

I think I will actually be looking into a trainer. The trainer who I previously mentioned who is the only one here that trains aggressive/fearful dogs is the one I will have come over. 

The worst that she can say is she can't help us, but it's worth a shot if she can. 

I'm glad to hear that your dog and yourself benefited from the training. I will do my best to get a trainer to help us. 

Thanks!


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

Springbrz said:


> My thoughts on getting a good trainer. A behavior or an event doesn't have to happen all the time to enjoy the benefits of a good trainer. First and foremost what I think a lot of people miss is that a good trainer isn't really training the dog. The trainer is training the human to train and work with the dog. Teaching correct technique, how to read body language, best equipment to use, etc. A good trainer benefits all dogs...not just aggressive ones. Please don't discount using a trainer because they "don't do aggression" issues. There are still benefits that will help throughout your dogs life.
> 
> For most, a well trained obedient dog will be able to be handled to prevent many events like you described. I don't believe because something happens a few times, appearing randomly, that a trainer can't help. Just because they don't see it in action doesn't mean they can't give you the tools (guidance) to prevent or manage a given situation in the future. Isn't that what you came here for? Guidance on how to handle these things. Doing it in person is sooo much better. The trainer can see your dog and how the two of you interact. We love to help when we can but we can't see what an in person trainer will see.
> 
> ...


When we attended a "puppy class" the trainers there always said that the owner almost always needs more training then the dog. I can fully say that's true. However those trainers only deal with happy go lucky dogs and I promise would have no guidance on mine. They focus on training sit and recall etc.

I will be contacting the other trainer since she has dealt with an aggressive dog in the past. So I will do my best to have her help us. 

I understand that you guys can't really help me in certain ways but you guys have already helped me so much within this situation. If it hadn't been mentioned that it was excitement based then we probably would have a way harder time controlling such behaviors. So I do agree that you won't be able to fully help me but I assure you that you guys really have. 

There is no excitement when we wait to go on a walk (only a sit and a stay) and there is no shoving her face in the pantry to sniff her food. They are let out calmly when going to use the restroom. All of these things bring to much excitement and after fixing MY behavior on those we have been having a way calmer and easier time.

We have talked to a trainer and seeing as she has always been fearful we discussed it is likely genetic. I have no doubt on this as even at 2 months old she was fearful. She is a rescue that was kenneled (put in, not trained) the first 8 week of life so that may have contributed to this fearfulness as well.

On the question of whether she is spayed or not, she is. She was spayed at 7 1/2 weeks by the shelter (I had no choice in the matter.) 

Thanks!


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Alyssa & Olivia said:


> When we attended a "puppy class" the trainers there always said that the owner almost always needs more training then the dog. I can fully say that's true. However those trainers only deal with happy go lucky dogs and I promise would have no guidance on mine. They focus on training sit and recall etc.
> 
> I will be contacting the other trainer since she has dealt with an aggressive dog in the past. So I will do my best to have her help us.
> 
> ...



Happy you have found a trainer. I hear what you are saying about puppy classes. They have their place. 

It's such a shame rescues spueter such young dogs. I understand their logic but it is a shame still. I only asked because females coming into or in heat can have personality changes. Obviously not the case here. 

I have a nervous, fearful and at times high strung GSD so I understand some of what you are dealing with. It comes down to learning to read your dog in any given situation. Understanding your dogs thresholds and setting up all things for success. I'm happy we have thus far helped you and you are already seeing improvement. You've got this!


----------



## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

Springbrz said:


> Happy you have found a trainer. I hear what you are saying about puppy classes. They have their place.
> 
> It's such a shame rescues spueter such young dogs. I understand their logic but it is a shame still. I only asked because females coming into or in heat can have personality changes. Obviously not the case here.
> 
> I have a nervous, fearful and at times high strung GSD so I understand some of what you are dealing with. It comes down to learning to read your dog in any given situation. Understanding your dogs thresholds and setting up all things for success. I'm happy we have thus far helped you and you are already seeing improvement. You've got this!


Yes we are contacting her shortly and I've been reading good thing so hopefully everything goes well  

It really is a shame, I wish they would give you a choice in the matter. I would ideally have wanted to wait a few months, since I do believe in spaying/neutering (even if not, she clearly would not be a good breeder temperament wise and such.) We've adopted about 8 animals now (most have since passed from old age) from that exact shelter so you would think they would at least offer. However I fully understand the logic just wish it wasn't such strict protocol.

Yes I am certainly learning how to read my dog. I've been watching many videos and reading articles just on this. She has calmed down a great deal once I started recognizing and respecting her choices so it is going well. I do my best for example on walks to notice what she's doing. As she is fearful and doesn't want strangers approaching so depending on how she's feeling helps me decide how much space to give her in between.

It'll take a while for things to mellow I'm sure, but things have already made great progress so I am hoping this will not occur again 

Thanks so much!


----------



## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

Alyssa & Olivia said:


> You weren't harsh at all. I did just want to clarify that that is not normally something I would do
> 
> I think I will actually be looking into a trainer. The trainer who I previously mentioned who is the only one here that trains aggressive/fearful dogs is the one I will have come over.
> 
> ...


Really glad to hear you are thinking about professional training 

Fear aggression can be very hard to treat but with early intervention and right training I think the fearful dog can learn to control his fearfulness, and how to deal with his insecurities. Even if it (fear aggression) does not go away, at least you will know your dog even better, and as her owner you will know when and how to intervene.

My Golden's trainer says the same, that it's the owner who needs the training, not the dog. This is very true in fear aggression. I learned how to read my dog's language and how to act in a difficult situation. I also learned how to intervene when other male Golden is passing by.

Nowadays my Golden tolerates other male Goldens and is acceptive of other unneutered males. He's made such a great progress.

I wish you both success. Good luck! And please keep us updated!


----------

