# If you are, you better LIKE people, ALOT!



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A cautionary note to the would be breeder: 

You are willing to put up with heat cycles and the garbage the unenlightened spew when they hear your animal has not been "fixed."

You are willing to muzzle your bitch and hang on to her while she is being bred (in order to protect the stud dog. 

You are willing to hold her butt in the air for 20 minutes after the fact because all you got was an outsided tie. 

You can brave the green bloody watery yuck, and the mucus/membrane, and all the rest of the messy whelping business, like that black tarry afterbirth poop. 

You are willing to go through TONS of newspapers and laundry soap to keep everything clean and smelling fresh. 

You are willing to cut a bagillion toenails, while the little monsters squirm and do their best to get you to cut off their entire toe!

Poopie patrol is a piece of cake (once removed).

But there is yet more, you have to be a people person. Not just a people person, you have to LIKE people enough to not go berzerk on them. 

There are the good propspective puppy buyers. One went to the dog show with me, visited the pups a bunch of times, did the puppy termperament evaluation, and took the pups to the vet for their first shots with me. 

Another went with me to the vet for the second set of shots, and brought her adult son/daughter to see the pups. 

A third visited at four weeks, and seven and a half weeks before bringing the pup home at eight and a half weeks. 

There are your ordinary buyers that set up an appointment, bring the family, pick out the pup, do the paperwork and go.

Then you have someone who calls and says they can be there in five hours. (I feel real good about the family/pup situation there.)

There are those that had things happen (like getting their toes shortened (ouch)), and having to transfer their deposit. 

You get the calls from people who ask "Are they free?" And it takes everything in you being to not say "Are you MAD?"

You get the rude calls from people.

You get the scams. 

And then you have the people that spurred this narrative. The people that talk to you for an hour about the pups, set up a time to come and see them. 

You change your plans because puppy selling trumps everything else. You rush home, grab the bitch and the lantern and hang out at the end of the driveway so they can find you. For an hour. Then you call them. They do not answer. Stand out there longer. Wave to your neighbors. Call again. "Oh, was that tonight??? I thought it was Tuesday night, but well, I counldn't find your number because I hid it from him, but we discussed it and, well, he already went and got one somewhere else.

When you go to visit a breeder, to see puppies, etc., remember that this is a human being. You do NOT have to buy a puppy if someone shows you some. But if you are not going to come, for heaven's sake CALL!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Some people have hineys where their heads are supposed to be.



> Quote:You are willing to hold her butt in the air for 20 minutes after the fact because all you got was an outsided tie.


nope, no I'm not gonna do that. A long time ago I thought breeding might be a nice retirement hobby. Then I learned a lot more. Got a lot older, got a crazy east german puppy at 39 and realized that I might be too old already! 

Does it help to say look at the bright side, there's no diapers involved? Wait there is for the girls who aren't going to have puppies this year... Scratch that, did I say scratch to someone with a pile of puppies...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

#2 and #3 ... eeewww...


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## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

Sue - Excellent points - every one of them!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I once thought it might be a fun hobby till I heard some stories on another site.I thought it was all natural...I'm not a people person so I guess I'm ruled out for a future breeder too.I'll help anyone out that is doing it close by though.Um except for holding the dog for the tie,the owner can do that....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anyone STILL want to be a breeder??? 

Ok, so how about when the maiden bitch is ready to go to the stud. Health Checks and titles in place. Temperament testing and even a Best of Breed behind her. 

You take her for her brucella test and progesterone, and a vaginal culture. They assure you it will be ready the nest day, so you set it up on Monday and hope to breed on Wednesday. They call and say to test progesterone on Wednesday. You get there and they collect what they need, and you are waiting for the results and ask about the other tests. The go to find them and ten minutes later they produce the Brucella report. Uh, how about the vaginal culture. That did not come back yet. Hmmmm. Uh, well, uh. Ok, I will give them a call....

Ok, ten minutes later they come back and say that there is nothing growing yet, so we will check in 24 hours, and then in 72 hours. 

SEVENTY TWO HOURS!!!! That will seriously knock me out of my window. (No spring litter, for the fifth year in a row just is not a good thing.)

A hairied call to the breeder and that is ok, we are still on. 

So no tie last night. Heidi was good, the dog was eager, the stud owner was at the tails doing her part, and I am at their heads. 

I was back there today. The dog is crazy eager and trying. The girl is flagging and standing, not growling or caring on or anything. An outside tie. Uhg! 

Holding the butt in the air. Uhg. YUCK and Hair everywhere! 

The stud is led away. 

The stud owner comes back with a surgical glove in her hand. 

Nooooooo!!!!!! 

She positions the bitch and reaches......

The verdict was a vet visit to see if she is open. 

The vet comes in with her non spermicidal lube and the vet tech with cleaning supplies, and well, here we go again. POOR HEIDI!!!

She is open, but she is tight. A day or two more, may make a difference. Or, we could AI. AI with the more specific progesterone test will cost $310. Or we can HOPE for pregnancy without a tie. 

I have had NO pregnancy with a tie on Babsy, there is NO guarantee even with the AI of her being inpregnated. 

In the mean time, my hand and arm was covered with.... uh..... something wet and hair from holding her up in the air. (Yes I did groom her before this session.) 

And people ask whether they (puppies) are free. Talk about nasty jobs. 

Nope will NEVER be an stud owner -- owning a stud for outside bitches. No, no, no. I am not coming out and probing the nether regions of someone's bitch. 

The good news is that Heidi was a little trooper through the whole thing. Other than a few rumbles while the dog was trying to penetrate the small, small area, she was good while two separate women probed her parts. And that while her squemish owner was cringing and wincing and carrying on like a nutter.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Selzer, maybe you should contact Mike Rowe. then people might realize what a nasty job it is?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Thanks for the tips!!


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## duramax (Dec 7, 2009)

Excellent post, for a non-breeder like me. Somethings ring a bell, being a breeder of Quarter Horses. But you're correct, the biggest pita is a few that you change your plans for, then never show/call. And I always thought breedin dogs was a walk in the park. Heck you all get 5, 6, 7 or more puppies a year compared to my one foal per mare. Sounds like more work for you guys though. I might trade handling jobs when we get a rank mare coupled with a bowed up stallion, maybe !! But muzzling a mean, nasty hormone raging bitch can't be alot of fun either. Again, another great post Selzer. I'm learning more all the time, hanging out here, thanks.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

selzer, good post!


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Sue,
Nice!








Anytime you want to send a pup my way, I'll take a Miss Scarlet!!!!








Good reality check!
Don't forget the $1200 to $1600 vet bill for the bitch who runs into problems and needs an emergency C-section, plus an additonal $200-$500 for post natal care of the pups who need oxygen, glucose, and tube feeding over night!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't ship puppies but you can certainly come and get one of these two demon boys I currently have.

I asked the vet tech what my running total was for this year. It is over 7k. That is a whole lot. Some of that was in Arwen's tooth surgery. Some of it was in all the tests I ran on Whitney this year because of the dog food.

And then quite a bit on pre screening -- no OFAs this year. But when I use outside studs, I check for brucellosis and microplasma and staph and other nasties. Some on x-raying litters. Some on vaccinations. A lot on puppy vaccinations. A few heartworm tests. Blood workup on Arwen and Whit. What is bad is that I spent all that without any major diagnosies or injuries on any of my dogs. 

I am really, really making a fortune selling puppies.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

Ill go ahead and make sure all female dogs I get are spayed. LoL.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

All of that is very well explained. You should post that kind of stuff on CraigsList to discourage BYBs.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

selzer
You forgot to mention ALSO-AFTER....going thru ALL the "breeding aspects"...ie...."yuck & butt".......then the actual whelping (delivery)...blood, yuck, & stressful hours....maybe vet costs...ie..cesarian section or stuck puppies....etc, etc

....your beautiful, precious babies don't survive.......?!
Yeah, ...being a responsible breeder is a blast!

I loved your original post....I felt compelled to add to it!
Robin


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You mean like after you go to an outside stud to get the best possible match, and after a tie, and a few weeks, the bitch seems not quite right and you take her to the vet.

You tell him she should be pregnant and he palpates her abdomen and finds an enlarged spleen and does an x-ray, and continues to say it is an enlarged spleen and probably hemangiosarcoma.

He sends you to a specialist where you pay $700+ for an ultrasound to find that your bitch is pregnant, but not able to determine how many.

The pregnancy continues, but she does not fill out as much as normal. 

Nine weeks are up, her temp goes down, her temp comes up, and no puppies. 

More x-rays and it is discovered that there is one puppy and it is very large. She needs a c-section.

You take her into the next state to do a c on Saturday. Bitches NEVER time these things to need a C-section on a normal work day. $800+ dollars later, after a long time being under anesthetic, one pup is born and the girl is spayed.

The pup will not drink, the pup cries incessently, Mom is out of it, finally you decide to try to supplement. Mom starts hemorraging, you rush her to the vet. She makes it, but the pup does not.

24 hours of [heck], and nothing to show for it, but at least you did not lose your girl. 

And people look at you scornfully and make nasty comments for being a breeder.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I should send these posts to my grandma.... She goes through dogs like you wouldn't believe and breeds for money.... Right now she has 2 maltese she wants to breed. 

Last time, she had a really cute little mutt (I have NO idea what she was), and she bred with a pomeranian and had 9 puppies. She sold 6 of them (I think) and when the others didn't sell, she took the puppies and the mamma dog to the pound.


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## Bennett (Nov 17, 2009)

Your family should not allow her to own dogs!!!!!!!!!! She sounds just like my brother's mother-in-law who seems to think that pets are disposable and easily replaceable, like trash liners. My sister-in-law seems to share her mother's attitude.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

That's how she sees them. There's not really anything we can do. My mom tried to get a point across by talking about how all of our dogs are fixed so that we don't contribute to the pet overpopulation, but she doesn't care.
My aunt wanted to tear her head off when she heard that she got maltese. She's had her little maltese Sabien for... 16 years? That dog is old, but still gets around just fine. When we went to Arkansas to pick up the Frenchies, she wanted one of them. My mom couldn't bear to separate them (they're attached at the hip), and plus she knew she wouldn't have either of them very long.
The two dogs she has now are confined to the kitchen with minimal human contact, and they get in trouble when they do something wrong or jump or anything. I will say - they are irritating, but it's not their fault in the least!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And then you get an e-mail like this one:

Sue, Thank you for the photos but most of all thank you for a wonderful dog. You must have done much more training with him than you indicated or he is a small miracle. Here is an update on how is doing in his new home. 
Thursday he walked on leash well and played in our yard. He went up the flight of stairs to the second floor but couldn't make it down on his own but by the next day he was running both up and down just to show he had mastered that. 
Friday we went to the vet. to introduce him and to get a Lyme shot. There was a huge dog there barking and barking and barely controlled by his owner but Woden took one look at him, let out a deep bark, and walked on by with no problem. All the humans there came up to pet and admire him, which he liked. The vet. our usual one that we have gone to for 35 years, pronounced Woden in very good condition and a great dog and was very impressed by the book you gave us. He rode well in the kennel and stayed in it while we ran a few errands. We usually take our dog every where we go, so all of our friends know that if you invite us you will also have our dog.
Sat. The two boys, ages 7 and 11, came out and he played a bit but was a little shy so stayed closed to XXXX. Two of our adult friends arrived earlier and he made up to them immediately. They have a Boston and will have us over for a visit soon so that he can meet her. 
Sun. We all went to church and then had two nice play sessions in the yard together. He loves the snow and since we live in an isolated area where a private road runs between the homes, we feel comfortable allowing him to play off leash. He comes well for being so young which makes us think you must have worked on that. 
Mon. He did not need to go out during the night and went from 11 to 5. We started taking him out three times, then two, then one, and last night he proved he can go all night. He responds obediently to these commands: come, sit, and leave it. He has not chewed or damaged anything and if he is told to "leave it," will usually not bother that item again. I have not moved anything out of his reach except for a couple of plants. This week we will take him to Pet Smart one day and on another to meet Ariel, the 11 year old Guide/Service Golden. 
Here is a picture of him we took on Thursday.

**************************************************

I was so very pleased that they were happy with the boy. He will be six months old in a week. My last pup went to his new home today. I still have Joy, but it is sad that the boys are all gone now. I can focus on my girl.

That is another thing, unless the litter is sold out at eight weeks, you cannot focus all your energy and training time on the one you are keeping. My puppy is one week away from six months before being separated from the litter. I love watching them play together, but it is not the same as having a puppy at eight weeks sleeping next to your bed and relying on you for everything. You cannot take her everywhere, because you have four or five that have to be taken places and done things with. You cannot let her get into the rythim of being your house dog and having the run of the house, because the whole crew wants to come in, and I am sorry but chasing around three half grown untrained puppies is the quickest way to have a heart attack. So today you let this one out for a while and then you let another out for a while. And all the time the pup you are keeping is spending more time in the litter than in your life. 

ETA: that I am really happy with the group of individuals that currently own my puppies. I feel blessed by them. And I love raising puppies. It is certainly not a cake walk, and has many sacrifices. There is a silver lining -- watching and interacting with puppies. And now and again a gold nugget like the e-mail I got today.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I really wish more people knew these things, OR that half the breeders out there invested as much into their breeding as this. Unfortunately, there are many that don't. They let two dogs breed and then wait for the pups to pop out. I knew a person that fell in love with my 7 yr old yorkie and started looking for one online. When she saw what they were going for, she decided to buy 2, m & f, so she could breed and sell them. One of the pups, she paid $1200 for a male because she was told it would be a "teacup" (2.5 lbs full grown). The pup weighed 9.5lbs at 6 months! So she got rid of it, and bought another! Then she asks me when the female is going to go into heat so she can breed them!! I'm like DEAR GOD! I quickly tell her that breeding a 6 month old dog is like impregnating a 3 yr old child!! And that she needed to wait until they were at least 2 yrs old. I also explained that there could be complications and that she should be prepared to do an emergency C-section with such a small breed. I haven't talked to her since then, so I don't know what ever came of it, but its crazy how people jump into these things without fully understanding what it is they're doing or getting themselves into. All they see are $$ signs.


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## mandelyn (Mar 23, 2007)

It is insane how many people don't know these things. What I hate is when I walk Ricca, and people stop go OOoo and Aaahh over her and ask when she's having pups. Um, she's spayed. What? Why would you spay her? She's gorgeous!

Yeah, she's also psycho, has an auto-immune deficiency, and was completely gross when she went into heat. She still acts like a hussy, but at least she's not making allergy prone crazy pups that would drive the average dog owner INSANE. 

Pretty is as pretty does.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

One more thing that I would have liked to see added......after all that work attempting to have your Bitch bred to the biggest hot shot around.....Scamp, the nieghborhood Romeo comes around and quietly gets the job done and then returns to the folks down the road who refuse to alter/confine their pets.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that I just hold the opinion that if you cannot protect your bitch from "scamp" then "breeder" is probably not a title that you should bear. 

If you do have a litter of questionable parentage, I believe nowadays, you can do DNA testing on the litter to ensure that the pups are out of the proper male. But how many here are going to purchase a pup out of a litter where some look like GSDs, and the rest look like mixes? How many of us would listen to the story of "scamp" and go ahead with this breeder.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

My puppy is the first registered GSD that I purchased, and I paid more for him than I have for some of my horses. I do not know bloodlines or breeders, nor do I pretend to. I am at the mercy of the breeder, and any information I can find during research. I can DNA test - but if I don't, I have to trust the breeder. 

I chose the breeder that I purchased from due to her ability to make be feel at ease. Trusting what she told me was true and being able to back up what she told me with hard facts. She has great people skills, loves the breed and wants what is best for me and her dogs. She was excited about her dogs, made me excited about making a purchase. 

I was very disappointed by a lot of breeders who have no people skills and treated me like I was just an annoyance. 

I live in South Texas. There is a huge demand for the GSD in my area. Crime rates are rising and people want a loyal, family dog for protection. Breeders are falling out of the walls like **** roaches. 

I did not purchase my puppy to bred. I compete in the Equine show pen, and wanted to have some fun in the canine show pen. 

My comment regarding Scamp was simply to those who let their pets run, and had no personal intent against you. I apologize if you thought I did.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow. Rather Disturbing. But very informational! I was going to breed my boy just so I could have one of his puppies, my mom wanted one, my dad wanted one, and 2 of my friends each wanted one. (5 puppies so probably the whole litter would have gone to me, my friends and my family) But we decided no matter how much we love our boy and would like a son of his, there are just too many dogs in the world that are stuck in shelters and need homes. So we plan on neutering him this month and we plan on rescuing a female GSD in July/August.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Good for you! Years ago, here in south Texas, the dog flavor of the year was the Pit Bull. So EVERYBODY bred for them. Bad, bad breeding - and for bad, bad reasons. Now we are flooded with them. And everytime there is a dog bite case, it's a pit bull or pit bull mix (even if it isn't). Shelters won't take them, apartments won't allow you to have them, some cities won't allow you to have them in the city limits. It wasn't the dog's fault. It was the greedy breeders who are STILL breeding bad dogs for bad reasons. 

I would truly hate to see that happen to the GSD. But I can see it coming.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not offended, just breeders who are worrying about "Scamp" are not serious breeders. Serious breeders know they have to keep their bitches under wraps. 

As for breeding a litter just to keep a pup, lots of people have this mindset. If you own the dog and set up the stud fee to get a pick pup, then you do not have to worry about a litter of 14 puppies in a depressed economy finding good homes. 

Good homes are funny. It is not necessarily people willing to pay over a thousand dollars. But those willing to pay that much will generally be able to manage the vet bills or will buy insurance. 

Friends and family talk out of their backsides until you have puppies on the ground. They they tuck they nasty rat tails and crawl into the wood work. Some will string you along for eight weeks before letting you know that the SO does not want a puppy right now. So now you have to find a home for this one too. Count on it. 

And it can be better so. When your pups go to family and friends, you look at the dog and notice it has an ear infection, or they are feeding something you do not approve of, or they start classes and do not make it to the rest of them, or the dog has a problem and you are thinking, yeah you are feeding it ----- or you haven't taken it to classes or socialized it, but they are thinking that you sold them a defective dog. Dogs that go to non-friends of family, you can e-mail information to, and call them at six months or a year. They can tell you this or that, call you if they have a problem, and there is not as much likelyhood and bad feelings all around. 

Back to good homes. Your best homes are going to be people who have researched the breed, or have had sheps in the past, ask about health screening, are interested in the lines, and want to know about the accomplishments of the sire and dam. Lots of one-litter people neglect some or all of these items, so it limits the types of people the dogs will go to. They can still go to decent people, but you may have more trouble finding them. 

And as you own the dog, finding a bitch owner who wants to use your dog. Walking a good looking shep down the street will often bring people who will stop you and ask if he is intact, they have a bitch, etc. However, these are not the best people to connect with. They too may have overlooked some of the things that you should require. And, unless you are willing to let the bitch come over and provide them the sperm and say good bye to the whole process, you may have trouble with how they are advertising and selling the remaining puppies. 

The best GSD bitch owners will not use your dog for a stud. Even if you do get the dog screened for genetic problems and put a number of titles on the dog, the better owners are STILL not going to use your unproven stud dog for their bitch. For one thing, there is probably a better dog owned by a reputable GSD breeder they know that has already proved his worth through his progeny, and the breeder is one who has been working with the breed, member of clubs, etc etc etc. 

Just some things to think about.


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