# American Schutzhund



## cliffson1

What do folks think about the American Schutzhund concept as proposed by Debbie Zappa and Jerry Bradshaw?


----------



## dOg

Dunno what you're referring to, is there another thread that may cast light? I found Jerry, if he is in NC, but still know nada.


----------



## Katsugsd

I'm interested in seeing how it turns out based on what I've heard. I need to go watch the video. I'm already doing a newer sport at the moment so I'm in no hurry to jump into another one. A lot of people I know are interested but wanting to let it mature first before fully committing to the sport.


----------



## WIBackpacker

Their Mission Statement (copied from their Facebook page, to make it a bit easier to discuss here) - 



> February 15 ·
> American Schutzhund
> Mission Statement:
> 
> To restore and maintain Schutzhund as a relevant breed suitability test for working dogs in America. American Schutzhund will test the ability of the dog to withstand stress and continue to function in difficult situations. We will continue to evolve, always cognizant of the fact, that the balance among the three phases of the test is what makes it so difficult, yet so important. The entire premise of the test is to determine the best dogs suitable for law enforcement, the military and for serving the needs of humanity. With the information gained through the rigorous trials of scent work, obedience and protection work: police officers, individuals and organizations in disaster work, as well as our armed forces, will be able to choose canines suitable to execute the work of serving. Down the Road: Registration and Stud Books will be developed for individual breeds.
> 
> Welcome
> 
> Thank you for joining us on our official Facebook page. This page was created to organize and disseminate all relevant information pertaining to American Schutzhund. It also provides a centralized location for questions and answers.
> 
> There will be a zero tolerance policy for treating anyone with disrespect. If you ask a question, myself or Theresa Currier will do our absolute best to answer you. We will not get into long debates or arguments. We will, however, do our very best to give you accurate information.
> 
> American Schutzhund is a small organization, just getting started. As with any new endeavor, growing pains will be felt. Although we appreciate input, understand that we need to get the organization functional. We remain focused and are concentrated on that goal. Our mission is to provide a platform for like minded individuals to protect the heritage of our working breeds in America.
> 
> Background
> 
> A few like minded individuals approached Debbie Zappia with concerns regarding the the negative direction IPO now known as IGP was heading. She was asked if she would spearhead a new organization that would essentially bring Schutzhund back to a state of relevance. Debbie, sharing the same concerns, agreed to help. As a result, American Schutzhund was created.
> 
> Please note; The American Schutzhund organization is being developed and implemented by a handful of driven individuals who are volunteering their time and services. No one is being paid or reimbursed for this endeavor.
> 
> Understanding The Organization
> 
> This organization is not about making anyone famous. It’s not about politics, executive boards, or world teams. This organization is not about being recognized by the SV nor will this organization yield to their politics and rules.
> 
> American Schutzhund is only interested in being recognized by North America. In the future, if the opportunity to form coalitions present itself, we will address the possibility at that time.
> 
> American Schutzhund is not for everyone. This organization provides you with a venue to test the hardness, fighting instinct and courage of your working dog. This organization will test every dogs ability to withstand stress and continue to function in relevant yet difficult situations. The entire premise of the test is to determine the best breeding stock, dogs suitable for law enforcement, the military, disaster organizations, individuals, and for serving the needs of humanity.
> 
> Membership
> 
> American Schutzhund is an all breed working dog organization. It was not created to divide and or replace any current working dog organizations.
> 
> This organization will accept memberships from already established clubs as well as new clubs. Also, all individual persons not affiliated with any clubs are also welcomed to join. In other words, all are welcomed to join and still belong to any other working dog organization. There’s absolutely no reason to give up any affiliations you and or your club already have. We encourage you to work your dog to the best of it’s ability in any sport you deem important.
> 
> Infrastructure
> 
> The Protection Sports Association (PSA) has offered the American Schutzhund organization the opportunity to utilize their already established and successful infrastructure. Although the American Schutzhund organization is it’s own entity regarding all things Schutzhund, it will be housed under the PSA umbrella.
> 
> By utilizing an already existing infrastructure, this will allow the American Schutzhund organization to immediately start accepting memberships, registering clubs, issuing scorebooks, and hosting trials. The business component of our organization is already in place thanks to PSA offering us access to their infrastructure.
> 
> Future Communications
> 
> There’s still a lot of things being worked on. Hopefully, all will be in place and we will be good to go right after our first informational seminar in South Carolina. We’ll be sure to post that information again.
> 
> Theresa Currier will be posting the rules in the very near future. While some rules are still being scrutinized and finalized by Deb, Protection is completed and will be posted shortly. Please stay tuned for further information regarding membership, judges, helpers, scorebooks, along with everything you will need to successfully navigate the new American Schutzhund organization.


----------



## Nigel

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/751031-schutzhund-way-intended.html

Older related thread.


----------



## CometDog

The concept of making it back to an actual temperament/suitability/actual ability test? I think it is a great idea but have not seen what it means in practice by them. Different exercises? More pressure? More environmental stuff?

I mean you have a situation where a trial originally was set to determine workabilty has evolved into a sport where the majority of actual LEO/working/military would not be found participating. I know there are exceptions, but in general. I have heard more than one knowledgeable person say there are actual 3 Euro lines...Show, Sport, and Work.

I have not been around long enough to have a real opinion, but I can see the reasoning for the desire to get back to roots with my own two eyes.

Anyone follow Isaac Schroeder on FB? He is not very experienced but has a ton of followers. He has been doing this "Dog of The Day" thing for months and months now. He posts a stud and people who know him or have progeny weigh in by the droves. Good stuff. Wish he would do dams, although he does always ask who the dam was when someone gives good or bad input.

Anyway, was surprising to read about a few off the field experiences regarding some National level dogs. Terrified of street signs? WUSV champ? Stuff of that ilk. Plenty of input on whether or not well known dogs were or produced environmental soundness and social soundness. It was interesting to hear who was handler hard or soft, who goes up the lead etc. You have people saying "looks great in prey drive but deflates under real pressure"..and it was over some rather well known dogs (either the dog themselves or their progeny). 

Most of it is public and if nothing else a good relatively drama free read.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Cliff, what do you think about it?


----------



## cliffson1

Wellll, lol, having a 25 year history of feeling Sch/IPO evolving into a sport being detrimental to the breed, I think it is a step in the right direction, but clearly think they have an uphill battle. Why? 
1) too much money drives breeding, competition, and show decisions.
2) Elitism comes from the titles, ratings, thus giving status to “ reputable” breeders, who although are well meaning, are blinded and hamstrung by the parameters that the sport or show world puts on them. ( In plain English these two worlds become the be all and end all for these top dogs in these worlds so that their deficiencies outside these worlds are not exposed to the breeders, or they refuse to acknowledge them
3) the argument that anything ( title, sport, show rating), is better than nothing is no longer valid when any of these things take the breed into an extreme direction in which the dog is no longer fit for its original intentions
4) the versatility has slowly left the breed supplanted by beauty, high performance, and exaggerated body parts.
5) the parameters of sport and show have created an artificial standard of functionality and work ability that is widening every year

In closing, I’m not thinking this is the perfect solution to the breed, but I do think it’s a step in the right direction. But there are many many people vested in their respective specialization of the breed, and I fear( I know) they will defend these fiefdoms in spite of the validity of what Debbie& Jerry are trying to do. And it’s not just Jerry and Debbie...PSA and SDA we’re both originally form from groups of people who saw where the breed was going because of the tools that assessed the breed were inadequate, antiquated, and watered down.


----------



## CometDog

^That is exactly what I was thinking but not qualified to articulate yet lol

Yeah, its visible even to a novice though. I've spent time at a handful of fields at this point, and in my shopping for a next dog have learned quite a bit. *A lot* of these are not the German Shepherds I use to know in my younger days and it's not just time glossing over my memory of what a brave dog is suppose to be like. 

When I was asking various breeders/stud owners/progeny owners about their dogs they all wanted to send me video of their bite work, their OB..on the field. Yeah that's great, and important ...but I really wanted to see footage of them, IDK....at a Parade. Not losing it. If they are "leaking drive" at a community function or in a crowded park, or if they duck like someone just walked on their grave because a person wanted to touch them (it's not right that people do that but it's a part of life off the field and out of the crate in the house) ...then I don't want that dog and I don't consider them a good representation of a German Shepherd. Fight me.

Add to that that we all know not all IPOs titles are created or earned equally...and add to that you hear stories of WUSV champs dislocating an owner's shoulder because a stop sign spooked him...or you hear from people who spend a lot on progeny of 2 world champs who can actually put the ego aside and honestly review their dog, and admit they deflate under any pressure outside of sleeve/field work..c'mon now.

And I can add that after watching a ton of footage of the AADPA last year where something like 70% failed (now THAT is a trial..true sense of the word "trial") ...I was dissapointed to see a lot of great IPO dogs really shyed away from non predictable confrontation. Whether you consider a GSD a herder, a flock guardian, a protection breed...everything they are SUPPOSED to be bred to handle is steeped in unpredictable confrontation and situations. 

Sport ruins everything. The parallels with competitive shooting are jaw dropping. It use to be populated with law enforcement seeking proving grounds, then it became fun on top of it all, then someone let the regular people in. With the regular people came the evolution of rules and the addition of flash to try and set themselves apart. And of course the everyone deserves a trophy just because they worked hard mentality. In the last decade the LEOs have largely dropped out of that sport (IDPA) because they can't bring themselves to do flashy stuff and play by dumbed down rules ...they walk away saying "that will get you killed, I'm not doing that". So there you go.

I wish them (Debbie) luck and would be willing to attend events and test my dog.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I wouldn't say sport ruins everything. I think different protection sports can have more of a positive or negative impact on what is considered a successful dog at a sport, then, what type of dog is bred for and lastly the type of training for a protection sport. IMO, the majority of clubs training have poor quality training and don't know how to correctly build a dog and teach him how to work through the stress of bite work. Also, many sport trainers "beg" the dog to bite which sets up a foundation for failure in terms of correct bite work. In IPO, the stress of bite work has all been removed. Being a sleeve sport is a factor. Dogs always know when there is equipment, such as with hidden sleeves and bite suits, but in suit sports, with the right decoy wearing the right suit, a dog learns the suit is an extension of the decoy more so than being a piece of equipment. Then the exercises in IPO are exactly the same every time, so there is no challenge after a while, for a good dog. It becomes more of a gymnastics show than a test of a dog's aggression and confidence. Also, a bicep bite is more stressful to a dog than a forearm bite on a sleeve. I know there is a discussion on another forum criticizing the bicep bite in terms of police apprehension or PP, but if you are not training a police dog or PP, it is a useful way to challenge a dog. A lot also depends on the balance of a dog's prey and defense. IPO really only needs and tests for prey IMO. A dog that is more on the defensive side is more challenging to train and often doesn't match up well for the sport of IPO, so you end up losing dogs being bred for some defensive aggression. Defensive aggression involves fear and stress and the dog has to be taught what he needs to do to work through those feelings and IPO doesn't provide for that and there is a woeful lack of decoys who know how to teach a dog how to work through the stress of a dog that tends to be more defensive. Correctly done and with the right kind of defensive aggression, you can end up with a very serious dog who is truly a man stopper. I don't think IPO, comes close to providing that opportunity or really wants that kind of dog in the sport. I don't know the changes proposed for American schutzhund, but my sense is that they will be lacking still.


----------



## CometDog

Quoting Chip because my quote button wont work..

"A dog that is more on the defensive side is more challenging to train and often doesn't match up well for the sport of IPO, so you end up losing dogs being bred for some defensive aggression. Defensive aggression involves fear and stress and the dog has to be taught what he needs to do to work through those feelings and IPO doesn't provide for that and there is a woeful lack of decoys who know how to teach a dog how to work through the stress of a dog that tends to be more defensive. Correctly done and with the right kind of defensive aggression, you can end up with a very serious dog who is truly a man stopper. I don't think IPO, comes close to providing that opportunity or really wants that kind of dog in the sport."

That describes my dog. As he ages to 2 and is being worked properly I can see the seriousness in there. I am attracted to PSA more so than IPO..I am a Self Defense instructor and civilian firearms instructor so my interest lies in "real" and scenarios rather than routines. However, I am not sure I want to or need to tickle that part of my dog. Maybe in the future, maybe with a future dog. And I know who I would use and not use. For now I'm happy letting him burn some energy and instinct on a sleeve for fun. We are never going to look sporty doing it lol "Not A Points Dog" In other words regardless of the pedigree/title value of it I would love to see the structure of what Debbie is putting together.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

My dog leans more to the defensive side, but has a good threshold for defense. He doesn't go around lighting up around everybody and can be approached by people. And his obedience in both protection and PSA obedience exercises is accurate and fast and I think it all has to do with the proper foundation and putting in the tedious time to teach and expect a certain level of precision, attention, speed and accuracy.


----------



## CometDog

And what I meant by sport ruins everything...I did not phrase it right or nicely I suppose. The evolution of a structured activity that is meant to be a real test into "sport" for the masses, will always over the fullness of time negate it's value as a real world test. It nearly has to, in order to continue to grow by appealing to the masses. 

People..now people always ruin everything. There is a societal shift towards being thinned skin. It has permeated every physical performance hobby I am involved with. I've walked off mats and ranges after a failure and felt stronger and more determined to fix that. You dont see that a lot anymore. Failing up with dignity is a concept that is going the way of the Dodo. You still that grit and determination of course..but the average participant expects a lot more passes and hand holding these days. Then you wind up worrying about boo boos and hurt feelings and un awarded trophies affecting attendance. Then the rules get modified to make it a more level field. Then other aspects that are easier to achieve with a dog with less than stellar nerves like flash and speed evolve into desirable for points. Then the concept of "points dogs" and the ability of a handler to "hide a dogs nerves" is actually a thing. Eh, you cant have all that without becoming a sport that mimics real life rather than tests for it.


----------



## CometDog

Chip Blasiole said:


> My dog leans more to the defensive side, but has a good threshold for defense. He doesn't go around lighting up around everybody and can be approached by people. And his obedience in both protection and PSA obedience exercises is accurate and fast and I think it all has to do with the proper foundation and putting in the tedious time to teach and expect a certain level of precision, attention, speed and accuracy.


We are there too. Except for fast and we have not tried PSA. It took a specific type of work to get where we are. I'm grateful I was surrounded by people who recognized it for what it was and steered me the right way. Thank goodness for breed specific mentors.


----------



## dOg

thanks for the background


it does remind me of the brief period where SDA and UKC had a venue for protection...


and while it may be sport made of a more serious leo endeavor dilluted it, if anything ruins stuff, it's politics, and so if this new effort is all breed, doesn't care wtf the SV thinks, I'm all for it!!!


>


----------



## CometDog

dOg said:


> thanks for the background
> 
> 
> it does remind me of the brief period where SDA and UKC had a venue for protection...
> 
> 
> and while it may be sport made of a more serious leo endeavor dilluted it, if anything ruins stuff, it's politics, and so if this new effort is all breed, doesn't care wtf the SV thinks, I'm all for it!!!
> 
> 
> >


Amen to that!


----------



## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> I wouldn't say sport ruins everything. I think different protection sports can have more of a positive or negative impact on what is considered a successful dog at a sport, then, what type of dog is bred for and lastly the type of training for a protection sport. IMO, the majority of clubs training have poor quality training and don't know how to correctly build a dog and teach him how to work through the stress of bite work. Also, many sport trainers "beg" the dog to bite which sets up a foundation for failure in terms of correct bite work. In IPO, the stress of bite work has all been removed. Being a sleeve sport is a factor. Dogs always know when there is equipment, such as with hidden sleeves and bite suits, but in suit sports, with the right decoy wearing the right suit, a dog learns the suit is an extension of the decoy more so than being a piece of equipment. Then the exercises in IPO are exactly the same every time, so there is no challenge after a while, for a good dog. It becomes more of a gymnastics show than a test of a dog's aggression and confidence. Also, a bicep bite is more stressful to a dog than a forearm bite on a sleeve. I know there is a discussion on another forum criticizing the bicep bite in terms of police apprehension or PP, but if you are not training a police dog or PP, it is a useful way to challenge a dog. A lot also depends on the balance of a dog's prey and defense. IPO really only needs and tests for prey IMO. A dog that is more on the defensive side is more challenging to train and often doesn't match up well for the sport of IPO, so you end up losing dogs being bred for some defensive aggression. Defensive aggression involves fear and stress and the dog has to be taught what he needs to do to work through those feelings and IPO doesn't provide for that and there is a woeful lack of decoys who know how to teach a dog how to work through the stress of a dog that tends to be more defensive. Correctly done and with the right kind of defensive aggression, you can end up with a very serious dog who is truly a man stopper. I don't think IPO, comes close to providing that opportunity or really wants that kind of dog in the sport. I don't know the changes proposed for American schutzhund, but my sense is that they will be lacking still.


No, sport doesn’t ruin everything, and there are some great things about sport...in particular the foundation work that is done with the dogs. But that work isn’t for points, once the focus starts on maximizing points, by any means necessary, then things change. 
Actually, if sport and show were in the proper place of importance, I have no problem with them at all. But they have become the epitome of what should be....and specialization can never lead to versatility! New folks remember that! 
It’s no different than many breeders today, who put more emphasis on breeding for the public than breeding for the standard. The same applies to show and sport. The reputable breeders place more importance on the title or the rating than the suitability of a given dog. And I’m talking about experienced folks who should be able to identify the better dog. 
Folks, are seeking perfection in dogs and litters which sometimes cause overthinking and narrowing of gene pool, but forgetting that consistency and versatility are the hallmark of the breed.
At the end of the day, it’s not about bashing sport or show, but rather about are the things Debbie and Jerry are seeking are valuable AND needed in the breed....if they are and you are a true steward of the breed you put aside feelings and support the things they say you know is true or neede.


----------



## cdwoodcox

From what I have read and seen I like it. I like the fact that there isn't footstep tracking. I despise footstep tracking. My dog does it but not with near the intensity or joy she gets from article searches or man trailing. It would have been nice if they had made certified SAR dogs exempt from their scent work. Just counted their certification as the article or scent detection phase of the program. Will probably wait it out and see where it goes. In the meantime I will renew my USCA membership and title my dog in that venue for now.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

cliffson1 said:


> No, sport doesn’t ruin everything, and there are some great things about sport...in particular the foundation work that is done with the dogs. But that work isn’t for points, once the focus starts on maximizing points, by any means necessary, then things change...


 
I think the keys words in your statement are, "by any means necessary." I don't know if you want to clarify that or not, but I'll say there is a difference in fine tuning your training approach and by putting in the time, for example, to get faster sits and downs, or focused heeling that isn't affected by distractions, compared to using harsh or abusive approaches. Trying to get maximum points in sports is a personal choice and depends if the dog is likely genetically capable to obtain a certain level and if the handler and people helping the handler are able to bring a dog to his genetic potential. Saying that, the genetic potential resulting in higher points doesn't necessarily correlate with a better working dog necessarily, but sometimes it can. And the reason people generally compete in any sport is to win. If you have to go to extremes or very unnatural training approaches, you get further away from what the dog is vs. how he has been trained.


----------



## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think the keys words in your statement are, "by any means necessary." I don't know if you want to clarify that or not, but I'll say there is a difference in fine tuning your training approach and by putting in the time, for example, to get faster sits and downs, or focused heeling that isn't affected by distractions, compared to using harsh or abusive approaches. Trying to get maximum points in sports is a personal choice and depends if the dog is likely genetically capable to obtain a certain level and if the handler and people helping the handler are able to bring a dog to his genetic potential. Saying that, the genetic potential resulting in higher points doesn't necessarily correlate with a better working dog necessarily, but sometimes it can. And the reason people generally compete in any sport is to win. If you have to go to extremes or very unnatural training approaches, you get further away from what the dog is vs. how he has been trained.


Chip, I have no problem with folks training their dog to their potential or seeking to win, or fine tuning their dog. These are givens and nothing wrong with them. I’m talking about the the “ importance” that people put on the titles, the ratings, the singular aspects of a dog,( ie angulation, grips, gait, focused heel ) to determine important breeding decisions and breed assessments. I’m talking about the lack of versatility and the preponderance of specialization.
Today, in LE work more dogs have environmental issues or weaknesses than ever been seen before. So many GS so unsure as soon as they approach something new, or looks daunting, or shaky footing,etc.....why. Rare anymore is the dog that confidently approaches as escalator, or fire escape, or swaying bridge, or bridge period, etc....yet other dogs have no problems with these things. This unsureness, except under ideal conditions, is the result of something, because in years past the sureness of a GS was just like the sureness of many regular mixed breed dogs. We have lost something intangible in our quest for perfection in show, sport, and personal likes. Of course people in these venues won’t admit it, ( of course when too close to something sometimes you don’t see, or maybe the status of the trophies, money, or personal adoration is too much to resist) , but user folks in SAR, LE, military, etc definitely see the trend and thus the proliferation of other breeds for many of these jobs.
But I know I’m preaching into the wind, lol, but as 10 years turns into 20 years turns into even more the truth is inescapable. I walked away from the American Show world in 1975 and felt these dogs were traveling in a direction that they would eventually not be suitable for strenuous work, I walked away from the German Show world in early 90s and felt that this dog was traveling in a direction that they would eventually not be suitable for strenuous work, by 2010, I was seeing the same pattern with sport work. Not in the same ways as other two because one specializes in performance while the other two in structure, yet in principle that the specialization of sport was rendering the breed lacking in versatility of which they were created to be. 
Every couple years, I reinstate my strong feelings on this subject, I’m through now, and maybe I’m missing the boat and people aren’t seeing what I see....time tells all!


----------



## cliffson1

One last thing, I really admire Debbie Zappa for taking the stance se has taken. It’s amazing the crickets you hear from people involved in sport on this subject, yet here is a person who got to the top of the pinnacle of sport, looked down and did not like what she was seeing and is making an effort to change some things. It’s bigger than tools, or training methods, or political climate of country, or personal likes, or breeding so everyone can own a GS, it’s about restoring the breed to the integrity of its inheritance, which probably decreases its popularity, and maybe makes the breed not a good fit for everyone cause they like their looks, and enables breeders to become true stewards of the breed.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I understand what your are saying. A focused heel doesn't tell you anything about a dog's confidence or ability to work in a real life venue. It might tell you something about their food or prey drive, or the skill of the handler. Grips sometimes tell you something about a dog, but a dog lacking huge, calm grips could be an exceptional police dog. Going back to the original topic and video of Debbie and Jerry on American schutzhund, I only watched a little, but wonder if they plan to incorporate enough environmental challenges to assess a dog's confidence and nerves. I think people are seeing what you see. The question is if profit is too much of a driving factor and if people will put aside self interests for the betterment of the breed.


----------



## pam

Cliff's statement is such an accurate and concise assessment of where we are today. Thank goodness there are a handful of breeders who still understand the concept of balance and do their best to preserve all the drive/temperament characteristics that create a dog that can and will love to work with the handler, possesses natural aggression that it will not turn on the handler and also the drives necessary to create a natural tracker that serves real world needs (LE, SAR, etc). I also disagree with a statement above that a strong dog must be pushed backward into defense to develop fight on the field. A correctly bred dog has appropriate natural aggression that is forward in use--the dog brings the fight to the helper--not the other way around. It should also have a clarity in thinking that allows the dog to respond with that aggression only when appropriate. Dogs with these characteristics are a joy to work with and are relatively easy to train because of their strong desire to please their handler. Perhaps the development of a test/trial system that focuses on the traits the dogs were originally bred for will encourage an expansion of breeding practices that will return us from the brink.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

pam said:


> ...I also disagree with a statement above that a strong dog must be pushed backward into defense to develop fight on the field. A correctly bred dog has appropriate natural aggression that is forward in use--the dog brings the fight to the helper--not the other way around. It should also have a clarity in thinking that allows the dog to respond with that aggression only when appropriate. Dogs with these characteristics are a joy to work with and are relatively easy to train because of their strong desire to please their handler. Perhaps the development of a test/trial system that focuses on the traits the dogs were originally bred for will encourage an expansion of breeding practices that will return us from the brink.


 
I'm not sure which post you were referring to where you wrote someone stated that a dog must be pushed backward into defense to develop fight on the field. If it was something I posted, you misunderstood. My view is that some dogs are genetically more defensive. That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the dog's thresholds, nerves, training, etc. My point was that a dog that tends to bring defensive aggression during bite work, without being "pushed" into it, has to learn how to turn off whatever the catalyst is that is creating the stress. The dog learns to do that by learning how to fight the decoy and display the behavior you want to see. For me, it is pushing forward with the bite and using the feet to engage the decoy rather than trying to push off of the bite. What do you mean by natural aggression? For me, I am referring to defensive aggression that is genetic in nature and defensive aggression is essentially fear and stress. If there is no stress, there is no room for the dog to grow and overcome the stress and the biting is just a game. I agree that a dog should be clear headed and prefer a dog with a higher threshold for defense, but if there is no edge there, the dog is primarily working in prey. Some breeds, like Malinois have such a high level of prey they can more easily/less stressfully develop fight without being defensive, but typically, a good GSD does not come with that drive package. That brings up the issue of the emphasis of barking in schutzhund. The B&H is a big part of the protection phase. Barking can tell you something about a dog, but it is still only barking. The idea of the B&H in schutzhund is for the dog to hold the helper with his bark rather than his bite and show some fight/defense rather than prey, but I don't think that is what happens. The dog knows he is never going to be hurt in the blind, and the whip is used so much to get a bark, that I think it is often not really reflective of a dog's drive state. So I would get rid of the B&H entirely.
I will add that with my current dog, the decoy has done very little to get my dog to bite in prey and very little to get my dog to bite in defense. He is not using active prey movements or agitating the dog to elicit aggression. This approach is different from the typical schutzhund bite work training I am used to.


----------



## lhczth

I would probably like it better if they had stuck to article searches and stayed away from detection work which can be very specialized. Using pseudos can also present issues. I understand they are saying that finding land for tracking is getting difficult. Maybe urban or something like the AKC's VST would have been a better alternative that isn't so specialized. 

I am not thrilled with the call off. I am an old SchH person, a call off was never part of the test and, IMO, could become an issue with a sport involving a sleeve. Do the old style courage test. That is all that is needed. 

The connection with PSA seems to be a turn off for some people. I do not know why, but just what I have read from others. The environmental testing in the BH will probably discourage a lot of people as will having to start all over with a BH in already titled dogs. Maybe a grandfathering in for a few years might be more welcoming. 



I was excited when I first heard about it because I am so discouraged by the Euro politics destroying everything (no sticks hits at the FCI Worlds this year), but we shall see how it goes. It is not old SchH.


----------



## Vandal

I don't know if defensive aggression is the right term. Or maybe it is for you but defense is reactive. It doesn't really belong in Schutzhund and dogs generally don't do well if they are defensive . You might be able to make a personal protection dog with that though.
Perhaps you mean active aggression. Active or social aggression is the core of the protective instinct. It's how the dog starts the fight with a helper. Not where the helper starts it and then determines everything the dog will do. It should be the other way around, where the dog dictates what the helper does.

As for the rest, I'm kind of in line with what Lisa said. Schutzhund was about looking for the traits in the breed that allowed them to do many jobs. It wasn't specifically police. I'm not particularly comfortable with who the judges might be. Of course, I have no idea who they might be but I would hope it's somebody with dog knowledge who doesn't need to see the dog doing every specific task in order to determine if it's a good dog. 
I think most people now think you train just about everything that happens in protection work versus bringing out what is natural in the dog. Much of it is achieved through avoidance behavior and I'm sorry, that is not fight drive. The fight happens in front of the helper, where the dogs see the stick and feels the stick/threat and does not try to retreat to the back of the helper. Do some dogs try to stop the helper on the escape? Well yes of course. And they can pull back to a degree in the front as well but it isn't trained by pulling their fur or hitting them in the legs etc. It comes through active aggression and fight drive that a skilled helper knows how to bring out of the dog. And it doesn't look like what we are seeing now that everybody cheers about and calls fight drive.
It's just been so turned on its head. Just like what happened with the show dogs, where people would look at a dog and say "no that's not correct structure" and the show crowd would lose their minds and scream and yell at them for pointing out the deformities in the dogs.
I think the biggest challenge will be overcoming the mentality that exists now. It's a mentality that the big dog organizations have worked very hard to attract.


----------



## Bentwings1

It’s interesting the changes over the years in SCH. When I was first introduced to the sport/tests the final result at SCH III was a very capable yet very well composed dog. He could be taken in public, could accept reactive dogs nearby, was not distracted by virtually anything. Assuming a decent X ray and good health, very breed acceptable. Also a good prospect for law enforcement. 

The fight drive was very real. It took only a few sessions to teach the dog various requirements for law enforcement. Very capable dark alley fighters.

Today that’s not the case. Most of the K-9 units dot take SCH sport dogs as their real take it the adversary drive is not there. 

I’ve watched from the sidelines some LE dogs being trained and even the training is not like it used to be. They aren’t really bringing out the real hard core fight that was done in my day. Many dogs just don’t have the nerves and mental capability for this work. It takes skill from the helper to bring this out and even that is lacking. There is a lot of macho/macha in the protection helpers. That was forcefully pounded out of me in my personal training. I was taught to work the dog not feed my ego. I had to watch over the helper’s back then I was quizzed on what I saw before I ever got to put a sleeve on. 

As for tracking, once I learned how to lay tracks and keep a mental picture of natural markers, we tracked nearly everyday. My dog loved tracking. I would lay tracks in the mornings on the way to work then run then when I got home. There were many mile or more tracks in all weather even before the SCH III title. What I lacked was good information on what the judges wanted. At that time a slow methodical track with a perfect indication at each article was desired. Downing sideways or too far from the article were point deductions. Air scenting was bad news. It took extra trading to fix this but the dog never failed a track. Later on we lots of search for suspect with LE certifications. 

There is a lot of correct form in tracking now and that’s ok, I don’t like forced tracking, I like the dog to really want to work and have what we call “fun”. I like to think the dog gets satisfaction that he can do sometime us hu-mans can’t do. The more difficult the test, the more the dog enjoys it.

Obedience. Making this sport a three part test is great. Again I like the dog to enter this with enthusiasm. I like an anamated dog not a tail dragger. It takes skill on the handler to walk a straight line and make turns the dog can follow. Crisp clear commands are a plus with quick action on the dog’s part. I don’t like a lit of high stepping unnatural arm swinging. Walk naturally as you would down the street. Yet crisp performance of commands. This is competition stuff here.

Today since I no longer compete, I do everything “street wise”. My Aussie operates without any verbal commands for many things. I do use hand and voice commands when people are around mostly to “show off” that my dog is well trained compared to their reactive mutt. People and street dogs have changed. Lots of irresponsible people and untrained dogs. I just didn’t see this 25-30 years ago.

So yes, the sport has changed. I think a lot has to do with making it easier to train, less “drivey” dogs, more event trained dogs. The result is breeders creating dogs that are easier to train. This means that more people can enter the sport easier and with less time out of their busy schedule.


----------



## pam

As always, Anne's (Vandal) post is so much clearer than mine re active aggression--a reflection of her experience. Thank you for yet again taking the time.


----------



## wolfstraum

Chip Blasiole said:


> . A lot also depends on the balance of a dog's prey and defense. IPO really only needs and tests for prey IMO. A dog that is more on the defensive side is more challenging to train and often doesn't match up well for the sport of IPO, so you end up losing dogs being bred for some defensive aggression. Defensive aggression involves fear and stress and the dog has to be taught what he needs to do to work through those feelings and IPO doesn't provide for that and there is a woeful lack of decoys who know how to teach a dog how to work through the stress of a dog that tends to be more defensive. Correctly done and with the right kind of defensive aggression, you can end up with a very serious dog who is truly a man stopper.


I think the the whole culture of the phrase "defense" is probably the most misunderstood and controversial in this sport. When pushed, people who use this phrase fall back on "fight or flight"....which IS defense. You hear old timers and judges and helpers talking about running dogs off the field. That is a dog who does not have power - although his work at a trial mimics it. Because of training.

I have seen many dogs whose owners want them pushed into "defense" to present a more powerful picture. I have seen it work, and I have seen dogs totally broken. Some of the long time trainers still are known to do this. They generally have dogs who do not work "OUT" of defense but show power - some call it defense. Then there are prey dogs whose "power" is high prey for a reward....thus our training has evolved. I have had a few of those dogs - and those dogs have gone on and produced some very very nice, highly accomplished sport titles at high levels. I don't really have those lines now.....just due to circumstances.


What is NOT "defense" is a strong dog who looks for the opportunity to confront, challenge and dominate the helper. For enjoyment and to fulfill his own desire to dominate the confrontation. I own one (actually 2) of those dogs. I have owned several of those - and they have been females in the past...but produced it in males as well. The key is the strong, powerful females. 

I have been absolutely fantastically lucky to have started out with dogs who do not need "defense" triggered. Early on, several judges and several experienced K9 trainers explained and discussed this with me over a couple of my past dogs. They have worked in true social/civil aggression. I have a male who is powerful, loves to work, and truely has a balance of prey/ball/toy drive and true social/civil aggression. Another poster on this thread has one the same way - that dog made big helpers cautious!!! LOL LOL! His sire was from a female line that is the foundation of a well known Czech kennel line. His dam my own breeding. She was called a "genetic treasure" by Herr Scheld at her koer. Her son was called "WOW" after the work for koer - the judge asking me if I knew what I had, how good the dog was and thenthe koermeister telling the helper that the dog was one of the strongest he has seen in the US. Helpers working him once tell me to take him to Nationals. The dog has it all. Once you see a dog with this type of power, true aggression and power in the work....you will see the difference between "defense" from fear and aggression from confidence and power. Breeders are missing out on a dog like this, which is needed, in favor of sport dogs who get run off the field!


Lee


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Vandal said:


> I don't know if defensive aggression is the right term. Or maybe it is for you but defense is reactive. It doesn't really belong in Schutzhund and dogs generally don't do well if they are defensive . You might be able to make a personal protection dog with that though.
> Perhaps you mean active aggression. Active or social aggression is the core of the protective instinct. It's how the dog starts the fight with a helper. Not where the helper starts it and then determines everything the dog will do. It should be the other way around, where the dog dictates what the helper does...



I think many would agree that the jargon used to discuss aggression, drives, etc. in dogs is not known for its congruence. Also, I believe drives/behaviors overlap and the constructs we use to describe a dog's behavior have limitations and we can only speculate based on experience, what a dog is feeling, which would reflect his drive states. When I was referring to my dog, I can see why the term defensive aggression is not fully accurate and there could be an element of active aggression, since the dog is not being threatened and shows no avoidance, outs quickly and is forward. Just to muddy the water, Winkler uses the term active defensive aggression. He says it is a reactive form of aggression, because all defensive aggression is reactive, but is strong, powerful and stems from confidence in the dog. But he kind of contradicts himself when he says defensive aggression is always triggered by worry and then says with active defensive aggression, "offense is the best defense." He also sees social aggression as a very specific trait where a dog with true social aggression will bite anyone outside of his pack because they are outside the pack and defensive aggression is not part of social aggression. That doesn't describe my dog. He is generally social. For a while, I thought he might end up being the type of dog you could take out of his crate and walk away with, but with maturity, that is not the case at all. I do think the dog is starting the fight with the helper because, as I said, the decoy is not agitating the dog in any way, and if I out him, he stares the decoy in the eyes and is eager to reengage. What I see on the bicep bite is a combination of frustration, anger and some stress, which is fading, because the dog is young and has not fully learned what to do during the fight. His grips are very full, hard and don't shift, which tells me there is confidence behind them and I see improvement with each session, so the dog is working through any uncertainty he might be experiencing. Also, a properly socialized dog tends to have some natural inhibition to bite a human because people are seen as sort of an adoptive relative. Once the taboo of biting is overcome via training, that uncertainty goes away and becomes a behavior the dog looks forward to voluntarily do, rather than feeling he has to do it out of self preservation. The self defense is more of a purer form of defensive aggression, and that is not what I am seeing.


----------



## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think many would agree that the jargon used to discuss aggression, drives, etc. in dogs is not known for its congruence. Also, I believe drives/behaviors overlap and the constructs we use to describe a dog's behavior have limitations and we can only speculate based on experience, what a dog is feeling, which would reflect his drive states. When I was referring to my dog, I can see why the term defensive aggression is not fully accurate and there could be an element of active aggression, since the dog is not being threatened and shows no avoidance, outs quickly and is forward. Just to muddy the water, Winkler uses the term active defensive aggression. He says it is a reactive form of aggression, because all defensive aggression is reactive, but is strong, powerful and stems from confidence in the dog. But he kind of contradicts himself when he says defensive aggression is always triggered by worry and then says with active defensive aggression, "offense is the best defense." He also sees social aggression as a very specific trait where a dog with true social aggression will bite anyone outside of his pack because they are outside the pack and defensive aggression is not part of social aggression. That doesn't describe my dog. He is generally social. For a while, I thought he might end up being the type of dog you could take out of his crate and walk away with, but with maturity, that is not the case at all. I do think the dog is starting the fight with the helper because, as I said, the decoy is not agitating the dog in any way, and if I out him, he stares the decoy in the eyes and is eager to reengage. What I see on the bicep bite is a combination of frustration, anger and some stress, which is fading, because the dog is young and has not fully learned what to do during the fight. His grips are very full, hard and don't shift, which tells me there is confidence behind them and I see improvement with each session, so the dog is working through any uncertainty he might be experiencing. Also, a properly socialized dog tends to have some natural inhibition to bite a human because people are seen as sort of an adoptive relative. Once the taboo of biting is overcome via training, that uncertainty goes away and becomes a behavior the dog looks forward to voluntarily do, rather than feeling he has to do it out of self preservation. The self defense is more of a purer form of defensive aggression, and that is not what I am seeing.


Chip, food for thought,.....Some of the great champions in sports relate to us that they always have butterflies ( a sign of stress or worry) before their event. Other champions relate they are cool as the other side of the pillow befor an event. 
Should we look critically at the butterfly CHAMPIONS. Should we try to make him calm internally before the event. Or should we accept that excellent performance can come from many different bases or foundations, and sometimes labeling leads to overreaching or over training for performance, and eventually a decline. Just food for thought.


----------



## CometDog

You haven't trained for real life until you have trained scared. That is something Ive been told and believe. Scared doesn't have to be for your life for real. It could be competition anxiety. The endorphins are similar. Dog probably picks up on it too. Even other people can smell fear and/or anxiety on other people. I'd dare to say a dog that keeps it together and gets it down while his handler is jelly in front of a crowd speaks well of the dog's genetic foundation. 

One thing I like about my dog is he blows off my mistakes. And I have made a lot of them. His protection and OB during protection is really REALLY good. And while his engagement with me is good, for the regular OB he is crooked, he has zero ass end awareness on the field and in life. It's all my fault and inexperience. But when I get the experience and do apply it he goes with it and forgets yesterday. For instance...I tried teaching him dumbells by ....modelling the behavior. And it somewhat worked? Well we are trying it properly now. Maybe I work from home too much.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

You make a good point Cliff. I always got butterflies when I played sports and it was a combination of excitement and a little stress, which quickly faded once the game began and added adrenaline to help my performance. I'm not sure what you mean by overtraining based on labeling. I am not intervening when my dog is vocal on the bite, because his grips and other behaviors tell me he is not overly stressed. He also has some anger when biting. It is just a matter of repetition, reinforcing a pushing bite, and letting the dog figure it out by gaining experience and more confidence with maturity. This dog clearly enjoys the fight.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

CometDog,
A good way to clean up crooked heeling, static heel position and poor ass end awareness is to use food with your dog in a sit facing you. With the leash in your right hand and about a foot away from the collar on the leash, and multiple pieces of food in your left hand, call the dog to heel while pulling the leash to the right creating opposition reflex. Keep a constant pressure and not a correction.This should trigger the dog to pull and flip into heel. Only reward correct position and continue to adjust the opposition reflex to get the dog in the correct position rather than you moving so that the dog is correct. Once that is down, work on quarter pivots to the left. Do a ton of this until the dog becomes solid. You can later go to a ball on a string and free the dog for correct position by tossing the ball to the left to prevent the dog from starting to forge when heeling. Food is best to start because you can use continuous reinforcement without stopping the exercise. As the dog improves, use opposition reflex from various angles, take a sidestep to the right and command heel, a step back, a step forward, etc.


----------



## CometDog

Chip Blasiole said:


> CometDog,
> A good way to clean up crooked heeling, static heel position and poor ass end awareness is to use food with your dog in a sit facing you. With the leash in your right hand and about a foot away from the collar on the leash, and multiple pieces of food in your left hand, call the dog to heel while pulling the leash to the right creating opposition reflex. Keep a constant pressure and not a correction.This should trigger the dog to pull and flip into heel. Only reward correct position and continue to adjust the opposition reflex to get the dog in the correct position rather than you moving so that the dog is correct. Once that is down, work on quarter pivots to the left. Do a ton of this until the dog becomes solid. You can later go to a ball on a string and free the dog for correct position by tossing the ball to the left to prevent the dog from starting to forge when heeling. Food is best to start because you can use continuous reinforcement without stopping the exercise. As the dog improves, use opposition reflex from various angles, take a sidestep to the right and command heel, a step back, a step forward, etc.


Thank you! We did just go back to food for some things. I am going to try the leash technique you describe. We tried a bowl with his huge body and 95lbs. It reminded me of the scene in Harry and The Hendersons where they taught Bigfoot to sit and he was collapsing all the furniture. The rubber bowls kept caving lol

A lot of the problem admittedly is I did not care if he was a little crooked. I should have cared. We will continue to work on it though for sure. 

I see American Schutzhund has a Beginning Detection Work event I would love to try in May. Our IGP Tracking is still a work in progress though. I dont want to confuse him any more than I already have in life. But, being a realist in hobby it really does appeal to me more than footstep tracking. His sire was a prolific tracker/trailer. He definitely got his sire's nose for it.


----------



## Vandal

I don't know anything about your dog Chip. I simply stated that perhaps you were using the wrong term. 
As for social aggression, I've owned dogs like Armin talks about in his descriptions. However, social aggression is not an all or nothing. Dogs have it to varying degrees, although I will say the dogs nowadays, have much less of it. It's more a combination of high prey drive and a little weakness in the nerves that I see more often now. Yes, there are still decent dogs but they are different dogs than what we saw years ago. Of course, all the people who have done it five years say those dogs were no good. They were fortunate those dogs existed and the sport operated the way it did. Because otherwise, there would be nothing left at all. 
We're headed there. Again, we are on the same trajectory as the show dogs. In another 10 years we can see where it's at unless some major intervention takes place and more people actually learn about the dogs themselves and what drives they should be working in during protection work. Oh and maybe what actual obedience is. Because right now it's more like a series of tricks achieved with electric collars. When you see an activity dominated by one device, also used to stimulate dogs in protection work… It makes you wonder if any type of sport could change where we are headed.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Anne,
I agree that I was probably using the wrong term and that active aggression is more accurate. I also agree that Armin uses a narrow description of social aggression. Here is a link to my dog's pedigree.
Litter from Xly Z Canczech and Bjori Soky-Pe
You see Olex in the 4th generation and his maternal grandsire was Yoschy. While his genetic contribution is small, my understanding is that he was known for having and producing active aggression. To me, it is a really interesting pedigree because it goes back to so many very good dogs from the past, including quality dogs from West German, Czech/Slovak and DDR lines. The sire and the sire's dam are not titled, but I have seen numerous videos of them and they are very good dogs to my eye. Here is a short video of the sire which speaks to his nerves IMO.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Here is video of the sire's dam, who was also untitled. The rest of the dogs in the pedigree either have schH/IPO, SVV or ZVV titles.


----------



## CometDog

^ THAT is a nice female. Love her build.


----------



## CometDog

Some common ancestry with my dog. He is 3-5 on Nike and also has Hoky 3rd gen.
Valor Zo Slovenskeho Dvora


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Hoky was definitely a factor in me going with this breeding as my understanding is he has and produces confident aggression.


----------



## car2ner

Podcast listeners. Controlled Aggression has Debbie Zappia on and she gives a very good explanation of the hows and whys.
Controlled Aggression


----------



## ATR

car2ner said:


> Podcast listeners. Controlled Aggression has Debbie Zappia on and she gives a very good explanation of the hows and whys.
> Controlled Aggression


Thanks so much for sharing this podcast link--fantastic.

I posted on another thread my surprise and concern upon learning that United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) bans its members from being a member of other clubs that are perceived to be "competing":








Schutzhund the way it was intended to be


Read this on a different forum. If true and successful this is definitely a step in the right direction: Girard Bradshaw, co-founder, executive director and director of judging for the Protection Sports Association (PSA) who is also the founding director of the National Tactical Police Dog...




www.germanshepherds.com





Coupled with hearing Debbie Zappia and Jerry Bradshaw talk about American Schutzhund on this podcast, I think this closed the deal for me in terms of with what organization I want to associate (PSA/American Schutzhund!).


----------

