# First bite - VERY LONG post



## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

I have been too embarrassed to post this story, and also afraid of the responses I will get, although for the most part I have had only one or two people criticize me here ever. Mostly I have received nothing but great advice and I have learned a lot. So here goes because I need any help or ideas I can get. Bear with me on the back story; what ultimately happened is that my dog bit my 76-year-old mother.

Hank is just over 2 years old. A few months ago, while walking him, he was startled by two teenagers who came running around a corner toward us. He was so scared he ran toward the road and I had to pull him so hard to keep him from going in the road that I fell down onto my knees (and the kids laughed.) 

Since that incident, he has been more fearful of people while we are out walking. He will now occasionally bark and lunge at mostly men or anyone on a bicycle although whenever I see anyone coming I make a wide berth between us and them. I understand that barking and lunging is a fear reaction, and before the incident where I fell down he only lunged once or twice in all the time I had him.

He has also gotten somewhat worse at walking, and I admit I need to be firmer and correct him more. I don't mind if he walks ahead of me but my arm has to be straight down by my side, if it's pulled forward then he is corrected. Mostly he seems to want to pull to the side to sniff things more than he used to. I don't mind if he goes out doors in front of me, but he will sit and wait if commanded. He sleeps on my bed.

He only sees my parents a few times a year. He was always fine with them until they came down in September; he barked at both of them although I told them to ignore him, not make eye contact and keep their hands by their sides. I think they are both very afraid of him and I think he senses that. Just to show how odd this behavior toward my parents is, I had an appliance repair man in the house a few months ago, and Hank loved him, and it turned out the guy was a creep who spoke to me in a suggestive manner and even touched my leg (Hank didn't see that part.)

I took Hank to my parents' house for Christmas last week because we were staying overnight. He continued to bark at them any time they entered a room where he was, so I kept him separated from them and/or in his crate. Christmas Day, we were getting ready to leave, his crate had been packed up, my Dad, my two teenagers and myself were sitting in a room together and my mom walked in. I had Hank on a leash. Hank began barking. I told my mom to ignore him but as she walked past he lunged and nipped at her shirt tail and got her hip while he was at it. He didn't break the skin, I think he really just meant to grab her shirt, but still COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. He has never done anything like this ever before and I am devastated. My parents both forgive me, but I do not forgive myself, and want to know what I have done wrong.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sorry this happened, but really nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about....dogs do bite!

I would get with a good trainer to help you work on managing him. If you put your general location in your profile, there may be members here who know of someone to suggest.

My dog Onyx did the same thing with my mom, though she reached timidly over the counter to 'pet' Onyx and Onyx lunged at her(missed, but still was in it to bite)Onyx fed off her timid emotions and from then on I knew Onyx needed to be crated *when ever* my mom comes over.
I don't hesitate to use a muzzle with her either.
Bump up the NILIF with Hank and show him you are in control of every situation he is in, so he doesn't feel like he needs to be 'on' all the time. 
A strong leader for a weak nerved dog is necessary at all times in that dogs life. 
Show confidence and that will go down the leash to Hank, he'll feel more secure knowing you are in control of his world. Instead of correcting, try redirecting him before he zones in on people.

I was lucky to get in on a class based on the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt and it truly helped my management with Onyx. If you constantly correct a reactive dog, they may see that correction as coming from what they are reacting to...backfiring and ramping up the dog instead. So redirection does work.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

First, can you talk to Hank's breeder? The breeder may have insights and suggestions for you. Second, I am sorry for you and and your parents and Hank. But it does seem from what you described of the visit and with your parents being afraid and Hank also after that incident with the teens, that what happened, is not really all that surprising, at least to me. The barking was a warning - when that was ignored - and I know you meant well, but unless you had gone up to Hank and had him sit and be quiet and controlled him, well, Hank took the next step - he lunged. Hank has beocme a fearful agressive dog. Try to find a trainer in your area. It may also be helpful for you to look on Nicky B.'s threads on his Zoey - as she has bit but now she is making wonderful improvements with ongoing training.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Thanks, Jane. I am in Michigan too; the Detroit area. I do have a co-worker who found an excellent trainer for her fear-reactive pit bull; I am going to talk to her after the holiday and get the name. But I am still open to ALL SUGGESTIONS and interpretations of what happened.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Mary Beth, thank you. I do want to call the breeder, she is fantastic and has been raising German shepherds for 40 years. I don't think I can call yet without crying. And I think you area exactly right; I did not respond appropriately when my mom walked in the room.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I agree that things happen and you just need to be pro-active and fix this and posting will help.

Definitely work with your breeder and any other trainers/behaviorists you can find in your area.

Have you thought of using a Gentle Leader harness to walk your dog so he won't be able to pull and you'll have more control in a management rather than just in a correcting way? If he's fearful and stressed when out and about, adding corrections to show he's bad is adding to the mess.

Did you purchase and watch the DVD 'Calming Signals' by Turid Rugaas? Huge help on helping our dogs before they over react. The book is ok but the DVD really shows what we need to look for to help our dogs by realizing what's really going on.















Also anything you can do to help with his confidence and get rid of some of the fear will help. Have you started up and continued with clicker training? So valuable for dogs with fear issues because it's all positive and won't break them down into their natural fear issues when the dog is 'bad' and not doing something right. They are never 'bad' in clicker training and when they think they are brilliant and wonderful it starts removing the avoidance and fear issues too.

Healing the Dog that Bites: An Interview with Emma Parsons | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

How to Help Your Fearful Dog: Become the Crazy Dog Lady | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

Helping Shy Dogs Blossom Using Targeting | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I highly recommend talking to Steve Robinson at Common Scents Canine. His site seems to be down at the moment for maintenance. Steve knows dogs and knows GSD. 

http://www.commonscentscanine.com/

Another option is: About Dogs LLC She is helping an old club members with a very fearful rescue (GSD) that he adopted.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

We started with a new, highly-recommended trainer today. Hank was extremely nervous and barked when we arrived, and the trainer asked me to wait in a different room while the other dogs came and went. I thought she was going to tell me I couldn't join the class.

Instead, she got everyone situated and came out and talked with me, and I told her about his recent fear aggression and how I believe it started when the kids scared him and I fell down. Hank loved her immediately. We went into the class and he settled down after a bit of skittishness. I think he settled down since the trainer put me so at ease and she wasn't afraid of my dog or expecting me to fail.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What type of class is this? I'd maybe get some one on one with her if you can as well as the group class. That way you'll maybe make more progress as she can learn more about Hank's personality.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

HankGSD said:


> We started with a new, highly-recommended trainer today. Hank was extremely nervous and barked when we arrived, and the trainer asked me to wait in a different room while the other dogs came and went. I thought she was going to tell me I couldn't join the class.
> 
> Instead, she got everyone situated and came out and talked with me, and I told her about his recent fear aggression and how I believe it started when the kids scared him and I fell down. Hank loved her immediately. We went into the class and he settled down after a bit of skittishness. I think he settled down since the trainer put me so at ease and she wasn't afraid of my dog or expecting me to fail.


Sounds like your on the right track:thumbup:


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> What type of class is this? I'd maybe get some one on one with her if you can as well as the group class. That way you'll maybe make more progress as she can learn more about Hank's personality.


It's standard obedience, 6 dogs in the class, she gave us a lot of attention. I will definitely see about more personal consultation with her AND she has German shepherds 

A co-worker with a fear-reactive pit mix recommended her to me and said they have seen amazing results with their dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A class with six dogs in it is exactly what you need to do. That is enough for the distractions, enough individual, enough people, enough space. 

This is not going to be easy to hear, and may not be popular here, but, this is my take on this: I really do not care what the teenagers did, that one incident should not have caused your dog to become what he is. Your dog is a young fear-reactive dog, you can call it weak nerves, whatever. In my opinion, you should neuter this dog if he has not been neutered already. 

This is also NOT the end of the world. Your dog can make GIANT strides. And you will learn too how to manage situations with him in it. The training, and plan on continuing to train for a year. Classes once a week. Just keep signing up. The training will help your dog's confidence in YOU, and You will improve your confidence in your dog and in yourself. Keep on going, and I will be very surprised if you read this thread 12 months from now, and you are not in a whole other universe. 

It may be that your parents will never feel comfortable around your dog. They are in their seventies and a dog bite takes a lot of time to heal, and longer for older people. You may choose to board your dog if you spend the night over there. Or if it isn't too cold, and you have to go some to get too cold for a GSD. Take the dog and leave it in your vehicle. You can go out every 2-3 hours and take the dog for a quick walk. But do not force the dog on your parents. 

Just taking your dog out and exposing them to people and places isn't enough. In fact, it can be counter-productive if your reaction to people and places causes him to be more wary. It is hard to not be nervous when we are afraid our dog might lunge and bite someone. That is scary. So cut that out. Take him to classes. Work with him. Throw the ball in the back yard for exercise. Take him on walks only if there isn't a lot of distractions and people, go late at night, early in the morning, or drive him somewhere if you must. 

Remember that you are not just managing him, or hiding him at home, you are going to classes. Your dog is learning to trust you and gaining confidence, you are upping your leadership skills by reading/learning/practicing good leadership. NILIF might be a good place to start. 

If you do not give up on this dog, in another year, you will be at a different place. In two years, this dog is going to be even better. But, to get to that place, you need to change what you are doing right now. Walking him with your hands down at your sides, where you need to correct more -- that is not what you need to be doing. Let them teach you how to walk him. How to teach him to walk on a loose leash. Be open to different types of collars. A prong collar may be the right choice with your dog. It might be the wrong choice. Treats may be the right way to go. Corrections may shut your boy down, and they may be what he needs. Under the careful eye of a good trainer, they should be able to match you and your dog with a method that gets good results. It isn't one size fits all. 

He will mature, and your leadership will improve, he will gain confidence in himself, you will gain confidence in him, he will learn to trust you, and you will learn to trust him and you will learn to trust yourself. And there will be a bond. You will automatically set your dog up to succeed and will automatically praise him for doing so and that bond will grow. You will automatically tweak the situation you and your dog is in so that it is imperceptible. And negative behaviors will go way down. 

It isn't over night. Keep a diary. In three months, you should see a difference. In six months even more. In 12 months, I will be surprised if he isn't a different dog. 

Good luck.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I cannot say it any better than Selzer has. 

I do want to say that I think part of the problem is the handler. My reason is the description of how the trainer handled the introduction. She put the handler at ease. I'd guess that had a lot to do with the dog relaxing, too. 

I know that if I am wigged out for some reason (or even no reason) my dog behaves differently. If I am relaxed, my dog does better. Always.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

selzer said:


> This is not going to be easy to hear, and may not be popular here, but, this is my take on this: I really do not care what the teenagers did, that one incident should not have caused your dog to become what he is. Your dog is a young fear-reactive dog, you can call it weak nerves, whatever. In my opinion, you should neuter this dog if he has not been neutered already.


Thank you, Selzer. I very much appreciate your opinion and know you have a wealth of experience from which you speak. 

I noticed the change in his behavior after the incident with the teenagers, but you are right. He does need more self-confidence, and a more self-confident handler (me.) Yes, he is young, he is fear-reactive, and a fearful dog can be a dangerous dog. I can't really afford these classes right now, but there is no other choice. Once he got back onto a training floor, he reverted right back to the training we used to do at a different facility. He was happy. He loved the routines. He ignored the other dogs for the most part including a Golden retriever that the owners had no control over.

He was neutered at 16 months


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i see this as you forced Hank into a bad situation
for him. you knew he was uneasy around your parents
but you took him to their house. keep the dog away
from your parents. good luck with the training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some dogs need a $2000 surgery. Some dogs need 10 back to back sets of training classes @ $100 per session. If that is what the dog needs, then we just need to figure out how to come up with the money. 

I have been out of work for quite a while, and know what it means to not be able to afford stuff, but I managed to take Odie, and Gretta, and Dolly to classes this summer. If our dogs need a surgery we somehow manage to dig deep down and come up with the money, but we have to think of training as every bit as important as veterinary care -- for some dogs. You have teenagers? You need to have a dog that is under control. Training will get you there. It is just a matter of how you come up with the money. 

Dump cable, eat spaghetti three times a week and kraft dinners two days and bean soup one day. cut your kids' cell phones, yours too, switch from name-brand pop to walmart brand, Clear American Wild Cherry is pretty darn good. Buy 2 litter bottles instead of cans or small bottles. 40 days of vegetarian living -- great on the pocket book. Meatless spaghetti, yum! You can come up with the money to buy the dog classes if you have to, if you see the need. The way you see the progress is to keep a diary, evaluate the dog once a week or once a day, put down your feelings, hopes, fears. 

I think the nip to your mother is a wake-up call. It is far more important to work with this dog at this point. It is worth some sacrifice.

It is not the easy things in life that we are proud of, it is the challenges that we have dug in and accomplished.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

That is great news! Congrats on moving so quickly on finding a trainer and getting started. The trainer seems to be ideal for Hank.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I am sorry to hear that your dog bit your mom ... not a good thing to happen ... at all. 

I'm going to second both of Selzer's posts ... I wanted to say the same thing ... but she beat me to it, and said even more!!! Great posts Selzer!

HankGSD - now you know. It sucks, but yeah, life isn't always a bowl of cherries! Otherwise we'd all be boring people with nothing to challenge us!!!

You've accepted responsibility - that is the most crucial thing you could have done ... and you did it asap. Give yourself a pat on the back for not saying oh it was a one off. The second best thing you did ... started training, that is the BEST thing you could have done for both you and your dog. 

The two key things I agree on the most that other people have said:

1 - that one incident with the teenagers should not have been too much - Ky's been frightened on more than one occasion ... I laugh it off and we play and have some fun - immediately after the "incident" ... I even set it up with friends of mine to come around a corner and "scare" us - I did this when she was about 6 months old or so ... after a couple of times it was pretty funny, we'd be coming around a corner and she'd stop and sniff and then start to "prance" - she could smell them!

This then leads to the next point I agreed with 100%

2 - handler. Someone with tons of experience can take your dog for a walk and there won't be a hint of the same reactions from your dog ... all because of who is doing the walking / leading. 

I'm so very very glad to hear that you were so successful in finding a fabulous trainer ... like Selzer said, keep a diary or make videos and the difference you will see with be absolutely amazing!!!

Good luck, but get ready for lots and lots of work (on you LOL)


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Thank you everyone for your insights. I dropped the ball on the training and fortunately have found what appears to be a really good facility. No, I can't afford it, but I can't afford to lose my dog or have an unstable dog. He means everything to me.

I didn't do everything right today; I didn't close my legs at the right time to cue my dog to sit; I let him get to far away to practice "target" because I thought he was doing so well with it. 

The trainers at my last facility criticized me: I didn't walk in a circle right, my dog walked in front of me, my dog made eye contact with other dogs. Hey, I am paying YOU money to help me train my dog. If I knew what to do, I wouldn't have to take classes right?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Are they criticizing or are they telling you?

"Watch your dog, he made eye contact with the other dogs, you need to correct him when he does that." 

It's not the dog, it's you, if you get you under control the dog will be fine.

The first statement tells you what you need to know, what is happening with the dog, what to do. The second statement really doesn't give you anything to go on, and is just a criticism, not helpful.

With the exception of letting your four year old go down front alone for the children's moment in church, I can't think of anything more intimidating that going to a new dog-training facility. Dog trainers are a special breed. They sometimes handle people the way they handle dog, direct. Some bark at you. Some come across like they are the best thing since sliced bread, and you had better just get in line and follow. 

But their job is pretty tough too. They have to read your body language in dog terms, and read your dog correctly and then they have to translate that into human terms that you will understand, remember, not be too offended by, and will not blow off. Add to that, a lot of people give dogs kid status, so that if you say anything that isn't 100% wonderful about their dog, they will be hurt or angry. 

Try to be open, and not look at everything as criticism. Yes, you are there because you don't know, let them tell you.

There are some really crappy trainers out there. If you come away two weeks in a row feeling really down, you may have come across a dementor/trainer. Or, your dog might be going through a rocky stage. When I am going through dog classes, I can't wait for training night to come. I enjoy it. We have a good time. Yes she does tell me if I do something wrong, or if the dog is acting a certain way when I do something, that is what I am paying her for, to tell me. 

Good luck. You are doing the right things. You are getting this under control. Go with your gut, I think you have good instincts.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I go to training, I do expect to be criticized. That is part of the reason I go...I need that other pair of eyes to let me know what I'm doing wrong, or not doing right. But my trainer also will give me compliments when I 'get' it. That does boost my confidence, but when I get all confident, then I get lax and screw up! So balancing the need to know and knowing is fine. I don't want to leave training crying, but leave seeing how much progress we made.
Always remember that you are in control of your program, and end it(the session) when it feels good/don't stop when you and your dog are in a bit of a battle....change it up to end it positively, and always on a good note. 
Many suggest to end it when you get frustrated, but I'd rather change up a bit and get myself and my dog back in a "happy zone" then end it. Even if we didn't reach our goal for that session. 
Don't let your trainer dictate your progress according to the others in your class. Group classes are great, but keep it individual for your needs and goals. I always crate my dog for a bit after our session so he can process what he just did. That is as important as the lesson.

Keep a journal as others suggested, it does help to see where you've been and where you are headed! Set some goals and think about what you'll be doing for your next lesson that builds off where you ended the last one.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> When I go to training, I do expect to be criticized. That is part of the reason I go...I need that other pair of eyes to let me know what I'm doing wrong, or not doing right. But my trainer also will give me compliments when I 'get' it. That does boost my confidence, but when I get all confident, then I get lax and screw up! So balancing the need to know and knowing is fine. I don't want to leave training crying, but leave seeing how much progress we made.
> Always remember that you are in control of your program, and end it(the session) when it feels good/don't stop when you and your dog are in a bit of a battle....change it up to end it positively, and always on a good note.
> Many suggest to end it when you get frustrated, but I'd rather change up a bit and get myself and my dog back in a "happy zone" then end it. Even if we didn't reach our goal for that session.
> Don't let your trainer dictated your progress according to the others in your class. Group classes are great, but keep it individual for your needs and goals. I always crate my dog for a bit after our session so he can process what he just did. That is as important as the lesson.



Yes, I always work in group classes at my pace and at my dog's level. If my dog is not where the rest of the group is, I will adjust a little for my dog -- not go so far away, go back before the trainer says, or I will sit an exercise out and take a break. If I am ahead of where the class is, I will work on something else between exercises, tricks, stationary exercises. And yes, after doing something hard or frustrating, change up and do something that you know both of you do well and end the session on a positive note with lots of praise.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> A class with six dogs in it is exactly what you need to do. That is enough for the distractions, enough individual, enough people, enough space.
> 
> This is not going to be easy to hear, and may not be popular here, but, this is my take on this: I really do not care what the teenagers did, that one incident should not have caused your dog to become what he is. Your dog is a young fear-reactive dog, you can call it weak nerves, whatever. In my opinion, you should neuter this dog if he has not been neutered already.
> 
> ...


 
*GREAT POST! Please, OP, pay close attention to it.*


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

codmaster said:


> *GREAT POST! Please, OP, pay close attention to it.*


I read all replies and do take them seriously. I really appreciate Selzer adding her comments because I know she has a lot of experience.

My first dog training facility did criticize ME. I just couldn't do the fancy footwork, and I was new, Hank was probably only 4 or 5 months then. They made me feel stupid. I also did not think they liked my breed of dog. My first night there for advanced beginner while Hank was barking, some woman who was training a different class came up and sprayed him the face with water.

The new trainer corrected me numerous times yesterday without making me feel stupid. Big, big difference.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One of the biggest mistakes I made was sticking it out with a trainer that was afraid of my 10 week old puppy because of her breed. Huge mistake. 

I am glad that your new trainer has GSDs and is not going to be flipping out simply because he has pointy ears.


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