# Thoughts on this potential mating? (E.Ger/Czech)



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

This is a breeding that might be happening in the future from a breeder in the area. It drew my attention because when I meet a dog I particularly like, I try to go look up his/her ancestors and a lot of the ancestors of dogs I like show up in this pedigree. However, I'm not far enough into my studies to know how they'll pan out in combination. 

Line-breeding for the progeny of V Mirko vom Gräfental and Cilka Van Den Heuvel - German Shepherd Dog


My hypothesis is that physically they'll be uniform and very 'typey' DDR dogs-- large-standard to slightly oversized with heavy bone and big heads, possibly running to coarse. Blacks and dark sables. As far as temperament I'm thinking there shouldn't be much issue with nerve, but the litter could be far from uniform as far as hardness vs. softness and drive level. I'm thinking you could end up with some softer, lower-drive dogs and also some hard, higher-drive dogs. I'm thinking there should be civil aggression throughout, with varying thresholds. 


Could someone who knows more than me check my hypothesis?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm thinking there may be a lot of variance in nerve, and some of it not good.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

OK thank you. Other than that, do I maybe get a B?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I agree with Cliff- and<<<DUCKING>>> two key males that are higher risk for hips - one on each side - 

Lee


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Oh! *smacks forehead* I didn't even _think_ about hips! I fail.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> I agree with Cliff- and<<<DUCKING>>> two key males that are higher risk for hips - one on each side -
> 
> Lee


Don and Grim? or ?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> This is a breeding that might be happening in the future from a breeder in the area. It drew my attention because when I meet a dog I particularly like, I try to go look up his/her ancestors and a lot of the ancestors of dogs I like show up in this pedigree. However, I'm not far enough into my studies to know how they'll pan out in combination.
> 
> Line-breeding for the progeny of V Mirko vom Gräfental and Cilka Van Den Heuvel - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> ...


Have you met either parent IRL? Mirko's interesting to me because he's closely related to a couple of my dogs. The Grafental/Ludwigseck dogs are often all interrelated in complicated ways.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Oh! *smacks forehead* I didn't even _think_ about hips! I fail.


Don't worry about that. 

I am always listening on the DDR or Czech topics too.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok not to go off topic, but any input on this cutie?
Puppies: GORGEOUS bi-color male - outstanding pedigree! (id: 152536) - German Shepherd Dog

here's his ped
Hoky x Meggi Litter - German Shepherd Dog


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ok not to go off topic, but any input on this cutie?
> Puppies: GORGEOUS bi-color male - outstanding pedigree! (id: 152536) - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> here's his ped
> Hoky x Meggi Litter - German Shepherd Dog



2500 plus shipping for a 16 week old puppy imported from the Czech Republic... no way I'd pay that for that pedigree :help:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well no I don't think I'd pay that either, but he's a cutie, (me and those black dawgs) and I kinda like his ped


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Have you met either parent IRL? Mirko's interesting to me because he's closely related to a couple of my dogs. The Grafental/Ludwigseck dogs are often all interrelated in complicated ways.


I have not yet but I want to and plan on it. Mirko kind of showed up on the scene here in Texas I've noticed several TX WL breeders using him lately. I know the person he belongs to but it's a good 2-hour drive down there. Before he got here I was seeing a lot of Fox van't Enclavehof and Yello Haus Iris but Mirko is fairly new.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I have not yet but I want to and plan on it. Mirko kind of showed up on the scene here in Texas I've noticed several TX WL breeders using him lately. I know the person he belongs to but it's a good 2-hour drive down there. Before he got here I was seeing a lot of Fox van't Enclavehof and Yello Haus Iris but Mirko is fairly new.


Sounds like he's the newest "craze"  

One can only wait and see what the offspring turns out to be.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> Sounds like he's the newest "craze"
> 
> One can only wait and see what the offspring turns out to be.


Yeah he's the latest male with a SchH title, confirmation rating, and DDR lineage that they don't have to ship to. I'm starting to see more of Keiko vom Rauber Hotzenplotz too. He's in Austin. I'm sure similar things go on in other parts of the country-- breeders would rather use a good stud who is close, than a good stud who is far.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Emoore said:


> ... physically they'll be uniform and very 'typey' DDR dogs-- large-standard to slightly oversized with heavy bone and big heads, possibly running to coarse.


 Why would you think that? Based on the bottom of the pedigree?

Cliff, where is the weakest link in the nerve department  in this pedigree? 

I am joining the crowd of interested in this discussion :warmfire:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSD07 said:


> Why would you think that? Based on the bottom of the pedigree?
> :


Yeah, I've noticed Congo can throw some large dogs. Also, as much as I like the heavier bone and broader heads, I don't like them coarse and looking like a mastiff. I feel like Don, Congo, and Grim, when bred to certain bitches and especially when added together, can sometimes go over the line of "substantial bone" and start looking like Grizzly bears. Of course all that is subjective and one person's too coarse is another person's just right. 

If you look at the dam Cilka herself, she's not exactly dainty.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Yeah, I've noticed Congo can throw some large dogs. Also, as much as I like the heavier bone and broader heads, I don't like them coarse and looking like a mastiff. I feel like Don, Congo, and Grim, when bred to certain bitches and especially when added together, can sometimes go over the line of "substantial bone" and start looking like Grizzly bears. Of course all that is subjective and one person's too coarse is another person's just right.
> 
> If you look at the dam Cilka herself, she's not exactly dainty.


You mean those "czech type" heads that makes it very distinctive and literally scream "CZECH LINE, CZECH LINE, CZECH LINE" ? 

Yah, I don't like those either. It's just too much. :help:



> Cliff, where is the weakest link in the nerve department  in this pedigree?


However, I'd like to hear more too. So I'm joining the fire. :warmfire: and throw in some beer. :toasting:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Jacoda....the breeding you listed will probably produce some top high sport type dogs, and also some good police dogs. My only problem with the breeding is its heavy backmassing on Fero through Troll, make it almost impossible for me to go to any West WL, with the progeny of this breeding. Its hard to fine a good west working line without Fero/Troll anymore. I don't like to get boxed in that far, thus eliminating a large segment of dogs that may have the perfect complement to a puppy, but to go there might backmass more. I have seen what that does to lines and I won't breed dogs like that.
@ GSD07.....its not a singular dog that will cause the nerve issues, it the whole breeding. The bottom half of the litter is really older Czech border patrol type dogs. These dogs can be very nervy, but not based in shyness, but rather low thresholds in aggression. These were the Czech dogs of 20 years ago that first came to the country and established a type that were popular for police and corrections, and frowned on by sport people. The top part (DDR) which is based in Grafental and other contemporay DDR lines, does not have the underlying nervebase to mix well with this older type Czech dog UNLESS you are looking for low thresholds and very high defense. Not for the average person. Especially the pacifists. The Czech dog of past 10 years is much different and sportier than the bottom of this pedigree. I am not maligning either one of these two dogs,(the DDR sire or the Czech mother), in their own right they are nice dogs, but breeding is about matching dogs to achieve a balance that gives the majority of the puppies good utility skills to be utilized by man. I just think this breeding would have a big variance in nerve and aggression, that many people would find difficult to handle. I could be wrong, its just my opinion.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Jacoda....the breeding you listed will probably produce some top high sport type dogs, and also some good police dogs. *My only problem with the breeding is its heavy backmassing on Fero through Troll, make it almost impossible for me to go to any West WL, with the progeny of this breeding. Its hard to fine a good west working line without Fero/Troll anymore. I don't like to get boxed in that far, thus eliminating a large segment of dogs that may have the perfect complement to a puppy, but to go there might backmass more. I have seen what that does to lines and I won't breed dogs like that.*
> @ GSD07.....its not a singular dog that will cause the nerve issues, it the whole breeding. The bottom half of the litter is really older Czech border patrol type dogs. These dogs can be very nervy, but not based in shyness, but rather low thresholds in aggression. These were the Czech dogs of 20 years ago that first came to the country and established a type that were popular for police and corrections, and frowned on by sport people. The top part (DDR) which is based in Grafental and other contemporay DDR lines, does not have the underlying nervebase to mix well with this older type Czech dog UNLESS you are looking for low thresholds and very high defense. Not for the average person. Especially the pacifists. The Czech dog of past 10 years is much different and sportier than the bottom of this pedigree. I am not maligning either one of these two dogs,(the DDR sire or the Czech mother), in their own right they are nice dogs, but breeding is about matching dogs to achieve a balance that gives the majority of the puppies good utility skills to be utilized by man. I just think this breeding would have a big variance in nerve and aggression, that many people would find difficult to handle. I could be wrong, its just my opinion.


Here is a list of Fero and Mink free dogs 


*Adonis vom Mörfelder Land*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…Moerfelder-Land

*All von der Friesenklippe *
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/6…r-Friesenklippe

*Amigo vom Wolfstanz* 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…o-vom-Wolfstanz

*Aras aus der Wallapampa*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…-der-Wallapampa 

*Archimedes vom Jacobiner Schloß *
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/9…acobiner-Schloß

*Artus von Haus Heldmann*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2…n-Haus-Heldmann

*Asmus vom Jacobiner Schloß*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/9…ner-Schlo%C3%9F

*Aslan von den Teufelsbädern*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/5…-Teufelsbaedern

*Ayk von Haus Heldmann*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…n-Haus-Heldmann

*Atze vom Sammelteich
*http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2…vom-Sammelteich 

*Balko vom Mörfelder Land
*http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…Moerfelder-Land 

*Sturm's Balto*
Sturm's Balto - working-dog.eu

*Barry vom Suhler Wappen*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/7…m-Suhler-Wappen

*Bart vom Suhler Wappen*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/7…m-Suhler-Wappen

*Bond von der Friesenklippe*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/7…r-Friesenklippe

*Calvin vom Amberg*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…lvin-vom-Amberg

*Canto von der Fürstenleite*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…r-Fuerstenleite 

*Castor vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…r-vom-Stadtfeld

*Chicco von der Ost-West-Verbindung*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2…West-Verbindung

*Coi von den Raptoren
*http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…on-den-Raptoren 

*Dax vom blauen Opal*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…vom-blauen-Opal 

*Dex vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…x-vom-Stadtfeld

*Diego vom Kretzschauer Land*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/7…etzschauer-Land 

*Djuk vom blauen Opal*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/7…vom-blauen-Opal

*Djuke vom Bauernland * 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…-vom-Bauernland

*Dragon vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/6…n-vom-Stadtfeld

*Dragos vom Sulzachgrund*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…om-Sulzachgrund

*Drigon vom Bauernland*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…-vom-Bauernland

*Duncan von Schlotterstein*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…-Schlotterstein

*Dusty vom Baumgarten*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…-vom-Baumgarten

*Eik von den Bärfallen*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/5…-den-Baerfallen 

*Eiko von dem schwarzen Blitz*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/9…schwarzen-Blitz

*Ellex vom Tollhaus*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…ex-vom-Tollhaus 

*Enzo von der Liebenburg*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…-der-Liebenburg

*Erich vom Kiek in Pott*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…om-Kiek-in-Pott

*Eros von der Donauvorstadt*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…r-Donauvorstadt

*Eyko vom Mörfelder Land*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/4…Moerfelder-Land

*Falko vom Kapbusch*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/5…ko-vom-Kapbusch

*Fanto von der Lobdeburg*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/6…n-der-Lobdeburg

*Fasko vom Kapbusch*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…ko-vom-Kapbusch

*Raccoon's Flax*
Raccoon's Flax - working-dog.eu

*Floh vom Gilserberger Hochland*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/4…berger-Hochland

*Furby vom Luberg*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…urby-vom-Luberg

*Gambler von der Herzogsbuche*[
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…er-Herzogsbuche

*Gas Naspo*
Gass Naspo - working-dog.eu

*Greif vom Champ*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…Greif-vom-Champ

******* Bady-Ron CS*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…ngo-Bady-Ron-CS

*Hoss aus der Zigeunerkuhle*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…r-Zigeunerkuhle 

*Hunter vom Ohrbecker Esch*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…-Ohrbecker-Esch

*Ikke vom fixen Dutt*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/9…-vom-fixen-Dutt

*Immo vom Leinethal*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…o-vom-Leinethal

*Iwan vom Poppitz*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…wan-vom-Poppitz

*Kian von Haus Heldmann*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…n-Haus-Heldmann

*Lareck von den Grauen von Monstab * 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…uen-von-Monstab

*Nero von der Lobdeburg*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…n-der-Lobdeburg

*Olk von der Kinzigau*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…on-der-Kinzigau

*Onyx von der Sturmburg*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…n-der-Sturmburg 

*Orry vom Annenhof*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/7…ry-vom-Annenhof

*Pinoccio vom Kirchberghof
*http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/5…om-Kirchberghof 

*Pike von der Bültenstiege*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/5…r-Bueltenstiege

*Quincy vom Waldwinkel*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…-vom-Waldwinkel

*Rayjo vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/6…o-vom-Stadtfeld

*Rio vom Otto Maigler See*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/9…tto-Maigler-See

*Rocky vom Otto Maigler See*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…tto-Maigler-See 

*Ronny vom Haus Kasfeld* 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2…om-Haus-Kasfeld

*Sirko von der Fasanerie
*http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/9…n-der-Fasanerie 

*Top vom Kirchberghof*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/7…om-Kirchberghof

*Uno vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/4…o-vom-Stadtfeld 

*Viktor vom Wolfstal *
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…or-vom-Wolfstal

*Wuz vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…z-vom-Stadtfeld

*Xanadu vom Jacobiner Schloß*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/52170/Xanadu-vom-Jacobiner-Schloß

*Yannick vom Sulzachgrund*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/8…om-Sulzachgrund

*Yago vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/5…o-vom-Stadtfeld

*Zachur vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…r-vom-Stadtfeld

*Zabou vom Stadtfeld*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1…u-vom-Stadtfeld

*Zomby vom Kammberg*
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/3…by-vom-Kammberg


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Fascinating. Thank you. 

I think it's interesting what you said about the "old Czech border patrol" vs "the Czech dog of the past 10 years." I don't know very much about Czech dogs but I had noticed it seemed like there were two lines of Czech dogs-- one bigger, heavier, less prey drive, more civil aggression; and one lighter and more prey/sport oriented.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks Mrs K, when you think of the thousands of sport dogs today and this few are without Fero, you begin to see my point.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Thanks Mrs K, when you think of the thousands of sport dogs today and this few are without Fero, you begin to see my point.


Absolutely. And all those are pretty much in Germany. I wonder if anyone ever thought about creating a list of Fero free dogs in the US. 

Are there actually any Fero free West Dogs in the US? 

I don't mind Fero in my working dogs but for the breed itself it would be nice if more people bred Fero free dogs.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> Here is a list of Fero and Mink free dogs


OK, next question.

I've seen some breeders of DDR dogs advertising "Sven/Tino free" dogs. But when you go and look at the pedigree, the dog is a direct descendant of one or both of those dog's littermates! Might that be the case with Fero/Mink free dogs as well? Does it matter if they're descended from a littermate or full sibling?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I would be interested to hear more about Fero and Mink since they crop up so often.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Fero and Mink were both great dogs and great producers.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Absolutely. And all those are pretty much in Germany. I wonder if anyone ever thought about creating a list of Fero free dogs in the US.
> 
> Are there actually any Fero free West Dogs in the US?
> 
> I don't mind Fero in my working dogs but for the breed itself it would be nice if more people bred Fero free dogs.


Thanks for the list.... look at how old some of them are, though--born in 1999, 2001, etc. :/

There are a few Fero-free West dogs in the U.S. There are not many.

One is H'Doc v Rex Lupus -- he does have one line to Mink. His father Hannes is still alive, but not breeding anymore, I think.

There are a few more--but PDB is down so I can't get to my saved list.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Cliff, your explanation makes a lot of sense, thank you.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One last thing....the allure of winning and money are two of the biggest corruptors in our breed. In the sport world these Fero/Troll/Timmy backmassed lines are very very popular because they are a pathway to winning under the way the Sch scene is today. The traits and strengths are more pliable for molding a dog into a winner with current training modals than any other lines. Many top sport handlers, trainers and breeders, are so immersed into their goals of winning and producing products that are CAPABLE of winning that the balance goes out the window. Ten years ago you could plainly see the trend developing, and so I started delving into the Czech lines to open up the genepool without losing the high degree of utility. You don't know how many sport people had snotty attitudes toward the Czech dogs. They could only see what was in front of them and their goals for now and not project to the future and learn from the mistakes of other lines. Ten years later you see a steady move of breeding programs tapping into the Eastern european dogs, and also the Scandinavian dog. (BTW, Sweden has probably had the most balance breeding program overall for many many years of everybody. They consistently produce good solid multipurpose utility dogs with excellent testing of their dogs).
My point is there are still many top sport breeders and practitioners that will continue to build the backmass on Fero/Troll/Timmy because it is winning and eventually you will start to see the influx in the evils that are accumulated with no genetic diversity. Does not make me popular with many of these people, or others who think likewise, and that I have learned from over the years.....but science will win out over people's desire to create their likes and fancy, out of something that is balanced and simple.JMO


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

So are heavily backmassed dogs an issue only for someone wanting to breed? Or is it a warning sign for the sport/work/companion buyer as well?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't understand the question or what constitutes a warning sign for individuals....but having said that let me say that most of my posts are directed to people who breed in hopes they avoid the pitfalls of many of today's practices. This is why i post primarily in the "breeders" section. I am not as much concerned with users and owners as then you are dealing with what individuals want to do with their dogs. Breeders have a responsibility to the breed based on a standard and legacy, and not to themself.
Many of the people who get upset with my posts, or don't understand what I am saying are owners who may have dogs that have some of the issues that I warn breeders about. They take my post personally, but my posts are not directed to them. This is the breeders section and I would like to think it is geared to helping breeders become more informative and knowledgable about the breed. Breeders should have far more knowledge about the breed than users, but many don't. Also, you have many non breeders making declarative judgements with little point of reference. 
There is no shortcut to experience.....and the breeders section should discuss the meat of the breed. There are varying different opinions on good breeding practices, but there is one basic standard of what the breed should be.....either you are pursuing that and your product reflects that or you are trying to change the breed and justify it with money or winning. Its really that simple. I gave my thoughts on this breeding in a general sense based on having owned and worked the lines from both parents. Doesn't make my take gospel, but I do have a point of reference based in experience in this case.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I see what you're saying and I appreciate that this section is here. I like to sit in the corner and take notes.  I was just wondering if the heavy backmassing you, Mrs. K, and Christine are talking about is something that the end user needs to keep in mind when making a buying decision as far as if it affects health, possibly through the expression of recessive traits, or temperament. If, for the non-breeder, "Fero-free" or "Mink-free" should have any bearing at all on a purchasing decision.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> If, for the non-breeder, "Fero-free" or "Mink-free" should have any bearing at all on a purchasing decision.


Short answer, no. But if both parents aren't absolutely healthy, their pups are even less likely to be so if they are being bred back into closely related lines.

Long answer.... probably still "no".

By definition and design, pretty much, any breed of dogs is closely interrelated. Within the breed, you see "tidepools" that become even more closely related--such as American show GSDs, German conformation GSDs, DDR-line dogs (which never had a huge gene pool and since the end of East Germany, it has has become even smaller).

Some of these small pools have been threaded through bottlenecks--in the American dogs, you see it through Lance of Fran-Jo. Through German show dogs, you see it through Perle/Palme v Wildsteiger Land. Now, in the formerly quite diverse and loosely bred German working lines we are seeing another bottleneck in the process of happening--Fero. 

Fortunately, the GSD as a breed has a HUGE gene pool. It's not like there are only 600 GSDs born in a year--worldwide. The number is somewhere around 40,000 AKC registered GSDs every year. (It was 46,054 in 2004, says one source--the number is decreasing. I think it was around 67k back in the mid-90s).

To the "end-user" does this back-massing make a difference? Not really--as long as breeding partners are selected carefully with close attention to vitality and overall health as well as to specific problems.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Short answer, no. But if both parents aren't absolutely healthy, their pups are even less likely to be so if they are being bred back into closely related lines.
> 
> Long answer.... probably still "no".
> 
> ...


One of Lance's saving features was that he was 25% Troll, which brings some German into ASL through him.
And even more Troll came into ASL through Sundance.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Short answer, no. But if both parents aren't absolutely healthy, their pups are even less likely to be so if they are being bred back into closely related lines.
> 
> Long answer.... probably still "no".
> 
> ...


Take me for example, lol. When I was "shopping" for a puppy I wanted more of an easy going sporty dog for Schutzhund and other dog sports I do. I have my own needs and wants as far as conformation so I went with a dog from a repeat litter (liked the original litter, and what the parents were producing with other mates). I got exactly what I wanted as far as temperament, health, working ability, conformation, etc.

But then I got to thinking about breeding, not really seriously but just playing around with things in my head, and the more I look at the pedigree the more I think, what does this really have to offer? Not that much, I don't think. There's some line-breeding not too terrible, a lot of the same stuff everyone else has. I mean it's not bad and the dog as an individual dog is what I wanted but it doesn't have that much to offer as far as breeding. An "end user" pedigree, I like that, as an IT person it makes sense


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