# GSD vs Homeowners Insurance This is Wrong



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I have still not been able to find an insurance company in my area (North Idaho) that I can get reasonable homeowners insurance with.

This is something that I became aware of about 4 months ago. My insurance company is able to deny a claim if my house burns down because I acquired a GSD some years after I got my homeowners insurance?

I spent some time looking at different companies and many have these bans including the GSD. I tried to find out why and cannot locate any incident numbers that would include the GSD in an extraordinary amount of claims to justify this.

I tried to look outward to other countries to see a trend where GSD's are presenting a problem to justify this. I found a site named Petolog.com. They have an article titled "List of Banned Dogs by Countries". They have 28 Countries listed. 

In the USA there is no Federal law to ban any breed - but the US Army has a prohibition list on "the housing of large dogs in the cantonments of the USA army housing". It lists 21 dog breeds of which the GSD is #17. It also goes on to site "Limitations in some states include - owner must be at least 21, amount of liability insurance 100k, prohibition on sale, can be given only to relatives, at private homes be sure to hand warning signs.

A search of the other 28 countries lists the GSD only in the Ukraine (restricted muzzle) and a country called Belarus (where no ownership under 18 and muzzle is required). 

I believe that Ireland and Switzerland also require muzzles for GSD's, not sure.

But at any rate - why are GSD's being included in a ban by most of our insurance companies. The numbers and trends certainly don't justify it. This is not fair and not warranted. 

PLEASE do not mention other breeds by name - This post is only addressing the GSD vs Insurance company regulations. This is a problem that needs to get resolved and involves only the GSD. Thanks


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think they get the lists based on statistics alone. The list is pretty identical to top dogs on the bite dog list. I know that you said not to mention breeds by name, but here labs and St. Bernard's are on the list too and I found that weird and asked them to repeat themselves. It's rough because they can make any rules they want, it's their company. Have you tried State Farm? They are one of the only ones by me that don't have a list.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks. State Farm aged out my house (1923) so they are out of the picture. I was with SF for 10 years suddenly they raised my premium 3X over a 3 year period. I thought it was just insurance going up overall and paid it until I was forced to have fire only. Would have been nice if they had just told me they were phasing out older houses. 

I looked at a lot of #'s to try to find out why this was happening. I just don't see them. Is there any way to appeal to the insurance commission that they are all regulated by for review? They are a for profit but heavily regulated against any form of discriminatory restrictions and I don't mean race or gender. There's stuff they cannot exclude from coverage if it is reasonable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks. State Farm aged out my house (1923) so they are out of the picture. I was with SF for 10 years suddenly they raised my premium 3X over a 3 year period. I thought it was just insurance going up overall and paid it until I was forced to have fire only. Would have been nice if they had just told me they were phasing out older houses.
> 
> I looked at a lot of #'s to try to find out why this was happening. I just don't see them. Is there any way to appeal to the insurance commission that they are all regulated by for review? They are a for profit but heavily regulated against any form of discriminatory restrictions and I don't mean race or gender. There's stuff they cannot exclude from coverage if it is reasonable.


Fighting an insurance company wouldn't be an easy task. My mom had insurance with one company for over 20 yrs and was dropped because of the breed of dog she owned. It's got to be a decision they make individually because not all have these lists. It would be nice if they would at least cover people with clauses or look at individual policies. Maybe require a CGC to be insured. That would be nice. If there is a fire, it has nothing to do with the breed of dog you own, it's just a loophole for them.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

The answer is enacting state legislation that forbids this practice, but so far only a few states have acted. In most states, this is totally legal.

This page lists companies to try--Chubb and Amica keep getting named (as well as Sf, which you said doesn't work in your case):
Home Insurance and Pets | MSPCA

More info here too:
https://usinsuranceagents.com/homeowners-insurance-for-dog-owners


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank You! These are sources I have not tried yet. If state legislation is what is required, I may be able to make an impact with local Idaho reps. This may be something in our state that has absolutely no foundation with the GSD. I know that they are loved and respected here - just like a good gun - sorry, but that's the way the good ol' boys think up here


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

keep in mind, insurance companies often get their numbers from hospitals and any bite requiring medical attention must be reported....this includes law enforcement / bites while on duty.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Fodder said:


> keep in mind, insurance companies often get their numbers from hospitals and any bite requiring medical attention must be reported....this includes law enforcement / bites while on duty.


Yes, I'm aware of that. I have recently looked at the most available numbers and back 3-5 years on research I was doing on another topic. I just don't see the numbers to justify the GSD being on the insurance ban list. The numbers are very low on the GSD.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Yes, I'm aware of that. I have recently looked at the most available numbers and back 3-5 years on research I was doing on another topic. I just don't see the numbers to justify the GSD being on the insurance ban list. The numbers are very low on the GSD.


I don't think it matters how low. I think they take the top 10 no matter what the numbers or at least that is how it seemed when I compared it. They might be using data compiled within the company on claims they have had to pay in the past also. So if they had 10 claims and 2 were GSDs, they just made the list. Insurance companies don't like to pay out and I'm guessing bites cost lots of money.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is why we should be ready to go up and _educate _people who own our breed and,

1) let the dogs roam over their property and the neighbors, and all the way down the road;

2) bite people time and time again -- each one of those incidents put a bloody bad mark on our breed;

3) let their dogs crash out of their front door and go after delivery people, meter readers, joggers, Amish buggies, JWs, and anyone else who has the audacity to try and visit or even walk on by.

4) let their dogs bite children and then blame their boy friends, the breeder, the victim, the bystanders. 

GSD owners today aren't too smart. Sorry, but it is true. There are statistics, but they do not reflect the whole story. They do not reflect the whole picture. We do not know how many incidents per number of GSDs out there. We do not necessarily know what percentage and what average the GSD bites are and average cost per incident.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> This is why we should be ready to go up and _educate _people who own our breed and,
> 
> 1) let the dogs roam over their property and the neighbors, and all the way down the road;
> 
> ...


This is all very true and sums it up well.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

selzer said:


> We do not necessarily know what percentage and what average the GSD bites are and average cost per incident.


The insurance companies _do _know this info though. Assessing risk is one thing insurance companies take very seriously. They'll have data on amounts of claims (= seriousness of the bite), breed, etc. over many years. They have no obligation to make that data public, though.

What seems to be happening is companies are just blacklisting nearly all common breeds of _big_ dogs, apparently on the view that they have the power to inflict more damage.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Sadly, this is when a BYB dog comes in handy. If the dog had never been registered, you can claim it's a mix and use that loop hole against the insurance companies. Lyka is listed as a collie mix on vet paperwork because of insurance and rental issues. I hate to be dishonest about anything, but it was the only way I could take her in.

And I agree with everything Selzer said. Even being one of those people on her list


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Magwart said:


> The insurance companies _do _know this info though. Assessing risk is one thing insurance companies take very seriously. They'll have data on amounts of claims (= seriousness of the bite), breed, etc. over many years. They have no obligation to make that data public, though.
> 
> What seems to be happening is companies are just blacklisting nearly all common breeds of _big_ dogs, apparently on the view that they have the power to inflict more damage.


Yep I don't recall a chihuahua or yorkie being on that list.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Magwart said:


> The insurance companies _do _know this info though. Assessing risk is one thing insurance companies take very seriously. They'll have data on amounts of claims (= seriousness of the bite), breed, etc. over many years. They have no obligation to make that data public, though.
> 
> What seems to be happening is companies are just blacklisting nearly all common breeds of _big_ dogs, apparently on the view that they have the power to inflict more damage.


"The have no obligation to make that data public, though."

Not to the public - but they certainly do to the State Insurance Commission. My state, as far as I know has Nat'l Insurance Companies ban only the top 3 dogs on any bite list and the GSD is one. If numbers prove that the GSD is not in the top 3 in my State - then the Insurance Commission will find them as discriminatory. I believe I can request records from the State Attorney General's Office or directly from the Insurance Commission. I wouldn't take the time to do this if I didn't have very strong indications that the GSD is not in the top 3 in this state.

Certainly the insurance company would have the option to expand their list from 3 dogs outward to cover this discrepancy but if it is not warranted - it will do nothing but cost them customers and money and we know that will not float well with their stockholders.


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## Palydyn (Aug 28, 2014)

Selzer got it right. I tried to point this out in the "other" thread about the "other" breed. In my area its GSD's or rather their owners that are a big problem. Recently in my small town a GSD and a shepherd mix were responsible for three calls to LE in one day, including attacking two children on a playground. That's three incidents in one day so three negative contacts by just two dogs. GSD's are second or third in bite incidents (depending on whose stats you use), first in negative contacts with local LEO's, and in the top three in numbers in shelters (man this hard to write not specifically mentioning other breeds).

This is why I believe they will be included in BSL's. I don't like it but I get it. Because of the fierce advocacy of defenders of "other" breeds, insurance companies have to demonstrate that their policies aren't discriminatory against any one breed. Basing it on statistics, such as the number of bites, required medical care, claims etc puts GSD's high on the list. As long as the policy is based on statistics and reasonable risk assumptions no insurance commission is going to over rule them. The liability on them and blow back would not be politically sustainable. 

So what can you do? Well I understand service dogs are exempt. Some insurance companies will give you a pass if your dog is certified CGC. You can attempt to get a separate rider to your insurance policy on liability for your dog or perhaps an umbrella policy for liability coverage. This coverage will cost a little to a lot more depending on the amount. If your insurance company won't issue you a rider or umbrella policy you might see if another company might and negotiate with your present insurance company, explaining the dog is covered separately. They might let you by with that. 

Failing all that you could do what I did (issue wasn't dog it was because I lived in a "Fire Zone"). Previous insurance company raised my rates 150%. By law they could not cancel my insurance but if they raised the rates high enough and you went to another insurance company they were off the hook. And if you paid the blackmail rate oh well they just got a lot of extra money (sneaky little SOB's). Anyway I hired an insurance broker. They shopped around and found an insurance company whose rates were merely exorbitant and not astronomical. 

Good Luck. And thank you Selzer for highlighting why the problem exists.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Palydyn - Hello again - sorry I upset you so much on the other post. Your experience with GSD's and the #'s I have researched are not similar. 

I don't know what's going on in your state but it's not happening here in Idaho. The key provided to me tonight was a poster telling me it's up to the individual states to regulate the operations of the insurance companies that operate within their boundaries.

That's why I know I can access the data and submit an inquiry to my local legislative rep. and discuss with the Attorney General's Office. This isn't California. I don't have to just accept and rider/umbrella/attorney up and pay lots of money. I will actually have phone contact with the State Attorney General's Office Attorney and we will go from there. I will actually get calls back from him etc..... 

Anyone can get insurance if they pay enough money. That is not the point of my post.


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## Palydyn (Aug 28, 2014)

Of course you can access their risk assumption analysis and final determinations from the Insurance commission, but not their raw data or weights given to individual factors. That is usually proprietary. So they can tell you generally why GSD's are included, the factors they considered, but not the weights given those factors. And the odds of you winning any battle with State Farm or any other big insurance company over that aren't that great. Having worked in government as long as I have, unless their risk assessments are totally out of whack, I cannot imagine any elected official fighting to make an insurance company cover GSD's because if a GSD did bite or injure someone that would be the end of his or her career. And politicians are usually risk averse. 

But I am intrigued. You asked for ideas, I gave you some. Certifying your dog as a service animal or getting her a CGC title should not take a whole lot of money and would accomplish your objective of obtaining homeowners insurance. In California, unless you own your home outright you are required to obtain homeowners insurance. If you don't, the mortgage company can obtain it for you and add the cost to your mortgage. So if you are lucky enough to own your home that shouldn't be an issue. If you don't, you may not have time to gather data, press your elected representative, have him or her introduce legislation etc. etc. etc. Getting a rider or umbrella policy just seemed like a fast way to solve the problem until you came up with a better solution. 

Maybe this is just one of those "you just can't get there from here situations".


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm reading and researching and everything is vague at best. They don't provide numbers anywhere that help. The only thing that is consistent is GSDs are listed as third(almost everywhere) dangerous dog. That is kinda scary because there really is a good chance they could eventually get banned down the road. I did read that there are over 4 million dog bites a year, that has to very costly for insurance companies. Those claims have to be the reason for the lists. I did find interesting stuff, like in Illinois, there is an exception to strict liability if dog was teased, tormented, abused or provoked by person that was injured. Same if someone breaks in and the dog bites them.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Do you know if you can get USAA coverage? Any military family members, now or going back a generation? They really are a good company, and they don't mind old houses with GSD residents.

Or maybe as one of the above posters mentioned, do you have time to get a therapy certification? Even if you don't have plans to volunteer, just get the documentation? There's a training facility here that offers a 12-16 week class, the first 8 weeks build up to CGC, then you test for it. The last few weeks add therapy work and specific practice, and then you can take the DELTA society or TDI international test at the end. There was a written component for the handler too, but really not difficult. If you pass, you'll have a really convincing arsenal of paperwork.... Is that an option? I went that route because I didn't want to have issues traveling/hoteling/etc. I think it cost around $200., but might be well worth it if you're facing crazy premium increases...?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There is nothing good about insurance other than you need it in today's society. It is all about the bottom line and if they think GSDs are against their bottom line, they will disallow. We have had insurance with Farmers, Travelers, and State Farm. Like you State Farm would not insure an old house (1919) with a vented gas wall furnace. We switched to Travelers on our current home because of what they did to Floridians (even those in the good old concrete block Florida homes designed for hurricanes) by dumping everyone, even those with 30+ claim free years. Went back to State Farm after Travelers demanded we also use them for our cars. Husband sells to autobody shops and the consensus around her is they are the best with auto claims, which does not help you


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Have you looked into Auto-Owners? When I went to find insurance on my new house I ran into more problems with this being a modular/manufactured (what ever they are called down here) home out in the county than with my having GSD. AO didn't kill me for having a modular home and they didn't seem to care about the dogs. 

In MI we had Hastings who also never asked about the dogs, but they can be total PITA's about other things (discolored roof shingles mean barn needs a new roof so we won't insure it).


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

I belong to AARP and got my homeowners' insurance for our new home from The Hartford through AARP. It was reasonable, and I don't even think they asked about dogs, much less what kind. I don't know what their rates are like without AARP.

Susan


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I found Auto-Owners. They do serve Idaho. Thanks for the tip. Sounds like you may have solved my problem!

Palydyn - I'm not going to wage war with the insurance companies. Just a couple of phone calls with a follow up request. Not going to hold up getting insurance over it. I just think it's something that could be brought to their attention. 

Idaho does not have a "dog bite law" (only about 1/2 the states do). There is a burden of proof for negligence if someone is bit and sues. If on my property and there is a no trespassing sign posted the court gives weight to the owners side. Those signs are so tacky but now I see the worth in them. As of this week my property will be "posted".

I too pushed paper for the Gov't for 15 years - contracts and real property transfer documents. I have found that sometimes you can get the big guys to listen to you. I was able to get two changes to the verbiage in our Idaho code by a quick chat while walking to a meeting with one of the local legislatures. Can't hurt to try.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Consult an independent insurance broker. We have to have homeowners and windstorm because of our mortgage. The homeowners we have doesn't care what breed(s) our dogs are. They simply don't cover any damage caused by them to persons or property. 

I know you said "don't mention other breeds" but the fact remains that there are "dangerous dog" lists out there. American Pit Bull Terriers, Doberman Pinschers, Rottweilers and German Shepherd Dogs are at the top of those lists, rightly or wrongly.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

If you or an immediate family member were military, then try USAA. They have no problems with GSD and great rates.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Once you get insurance you may want to do some other "cover your hinney" actions. For instance I have a fenced in yard. Rather than putting up a Beware of Dog sign, implying my dog is dangerous, I put up a Please Keep Gate Closed sign with a silhouette of a GSD.

BTW, we have USAA for home and cars. I think going through a broker can be a good idea but years back I used one for car insurance. I found out later on my own that I could have gotten a better rate and they never told me about it. So once they get you squared away, keep looking on your own for when renewal time comes up.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

My homeowners policy through Lloyd's of London excludes my dogs completely. They don't care what kind they are they just don't cover them at all. A separate liability policy can be purchased for around $1000 per dog per year. I did not do that this year but maybe after finances are better I will get that one again. I just make sure my dogs are under my control at all times so we don't have any problems.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Do you live on any acreage? If so, you might qualify for insurance through your local Farm Bureau. Their rates are very reasonable and service is great. 

Good luck with your search.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

The only company I've heard of that doesn't have a list is State Farm and possibly Farmers.

We have American Family, and they allow GSDs. I don't know if they're in your area. They are also insuring our house (1910-1915ish construction, I forget the exact year). They will not cover pit or pit types or mixes, Akitas, wolf hybrids, Chows, or Rottweilers. But the GSD is okay.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

car2ner said:


> Once you get insurance you may want to do some other "cover your hinney" actions. For instance I have a fenced in yard. Rather than putting up a Beware of Dog sign, implying my dog is dangerous, I put up a Please Keep Gate Closed sign with a silhouette of a GSD.
> 
> BTW, we have USAA for home and cars. I think going through a broker can be a good idea but years back I used one for car insurance. I found out later on my own that I could have gotten a better rate and they never told me about it. So once they get you squared away, keep looking on your own for when renewal time comes up.


Thanks everyone for the companies mentioned. There are several mentioned that do cover this area so that is great. I will let the current one go for the next 8 weeks and then make the switch.

As far as the "cover your hinney" actions - I have my entire lot fenced. The front fence is only 4 feet but the side yards are where the 6 foot fencing starts. The front gate is always locked. I think that only the "No Trespassing" sign provides the legal protection I am looking for. I believe those two words must be used. To "trespass" ignoring a clearly posted sign is breaking the law.


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## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks. State Farm aged out my house (1923) so they are out of the picture. I was with SF for 10 years suddenly they raised my premium 3X over a 3 year period. I thought it was just insurance going up overall and paid it until I was forced to have fire only. Would have been nice if they had just told me they were phasing out older houses.



I had no idea that homeowners insurance could opt out covering a home based on age. My husband and I are planning to move back to New England next year and have been looking exclusively at older homes (we're talking colonials from the actual Colonial times). We also plan to get a GSD when we move.

This could explain in part why a few of the homes we have been watching on the real estate sites have been sitting unsold for a while; these older homes are apparently a nightmare to insure as well.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

brandydan said:


> I had no idea that homeowners insurance could opt out covering a home based on age. My husband and I are planning to move back to New England next year and have been looking exclusively at older homes (we're talking colonials from the actual Colonial times). We also plan to get a GSD when we move.
> 
> This could explain in part why a few of the homes we have been watching on the real estate sites have been sitting unsold for a while; these older homes are apparently a nightmare to insure as well.


Yes, I used to be a property and casualty insurance agent and several companies have age limits on what they will insure. Sometimes a comprehensive inspection on items such as electric, plumbing, and roofing can get them to at least give you a quote though. It is also helpful to have if you are looking for a mortgage. Mainly they don't want to insure anything they might have to pay a claim on, thus, the age limit. You could google insurance companies that cover older homes and try calling around to get more information. Could be a historic register designation may help.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I have been a USAA customer since 2007. They handle my banking, personal property insurance, auto loans and my business insurance.

I have 2 million in coverage for any dog related incident on my property or off my property if the dog is in my care. It costs me in the neighborhood of $400 a year.

They have covered me on several personal property claims no questions asked, and never raised my rates.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

David, is that an umbrella policy through USAA, or a special dog policy that they offer separate from the umbrella?


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## GSDKIMBER (Jan 9, 2015)

I have been shopping around insurance companies and American Family Insurance told me they dont have a breed ban.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Magwart, that is an umbrella offered by USAA. The agent I spoke with was very familiar with dog trainers and asked all the right questions. I was actually pretty impressed. I expected to have to spell out every little thing to a clueless salesperson, but she handled my policy very professionally.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

pyratemom said:


> Yes, I used to be a property and casualty insurance agent and several companies have age limits on what they will insure. Sometimes a comprehensive inspection on items such as electric, plumbing, and roofing can get them to at least give you a quote though. It is also helpful to have if you are looking for a mortgage. Mainly they don't want to insure anything they might have to pay a claim on, thus, the age limit. You could google insurance companies that cover older homes and try calling around to get more information. Could be a historic register designation may help.


The thing that got me is State Farm is large. I believe they insure in areas that are subject to tornados, hurricanes, forest fires and flooding. Yet they deny an older house in a very safe area. It just doesn't make sense to me. I had home, auto, boat etc with them for 20 years when they did this. Never a claim.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

While an insurance company may appear to be the same company from one state to the next, I think it is not as straight forward as that.

I'm PMing Stone with my experience here.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GSDKIMBER said:


> I have been shopping around insurance companies and American Family Insurance told me they dont have a breed ban.


I wonder if that varies by state. We have American Family and they gave me a list (Akita, Chow, pit/pit type/pit mix, wolf hybrid, and Rott). It's just that the GSD isn't on that list so it was fine.

Interesting. It must vary by state.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I looked into USAA, but at the time it would have taken too long to get everything set up for me to use them. My father is a vet.


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