# This video raises all sorts of issue not related to the actual video!



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

*Adjust your expectations!*
Your dog does not know or care that when you brought him home you had plans and goals. Your dog is a dog with it's own thing going on. It's up to the two of you to find the middle ground that you can both enjoy. Seriously. Like Hey buddy I thought we could be Agility champions of the world because I really want to. Dogs like sure that's cool I can eat some Poodles and then maybe we can go roll in that dead skunk in field. And you get all eeww! No! I just want you to put on these pink boots and sit pretty for the photo shoot. Dogs like I got this just let me wash up in the bog and dry off on your bed.
No really. The dog you have is an individual and whatever you thought you need to understand that this dog may just need you to modify your thoughts. 

*Stop vilifying muzzles!*
My dog wears a muzzle because humans are poorly behaved and trained. She's just fine thanks. Personally I think more people should be leashed and muzzled but the cops said I am not allowed to do that anymore. Apparently slapping peoples noses and telling them to go lay down is also frowned on. 

*Stop asking to pet my dog!*
And definitely stop touching her without asking! See above point. I did not get a dog to entertain you and I don't actually care that you had one just like her once. Except yours was a male. And it was bigger. And yours was a long coat. And it was black. And it was part wolf. And part Rottweiler. Look, my dog can't talk. If you have questions about her breed, training, or dogs in general I am happy to chat. If at some point she decides that she would like to approach you then that is her choice.

I really like this guys videos. I like the way he thinks and I understand the reasoning. Personally I thought this dog looked like oodles of fun. I would have a blast with him. 
I also liked that he mentioned about the wagging tails. Buddy was wagging his tail when he had the guy pinned on the floor. Tail position is important.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

I too, enjoy just videos. I’ve learned a lot from him.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I like his video it’s one stop shop I found three trainers who all trained differently but I need all of them to get the results I was looking for. The Melissa and stuffed dog toy also brought back memories. First night bringing Luna home as a pup she was crated. Max ran upstairs with the life size Melissa and Doug toy and was thrashing it around dragging all over the room. I heard him from downstairs. It was the same color as Luna and looked similar. I have to say I was concerned at the moment but all worked out well. Lol

I had the same conversation the other day. In regards to saying hi. A group of really nice people could not wait to say hi to max as I walking down a trail. I was passing a big barbecue and felt I was in a very small parade. Max will always want to smell them get scent to check them out. Not so much as to say hi , he may give them a creepy lick on the hand like he is taste them but just getting there scent. So I have him in a sit stay. Go through the same Schpeel feel them out sometimes there is a sniff and greet with depends on the people and my dog at the moment. He gave them a sniff and a creepy lick and then we were on our way. They were having a barbecue and Max loves those he would steal all their unsupervised plates of food if given a chance.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Tom Davis. I am not a huge fan, BUT Sabis I love your post. I want to cut and paste that on just about every dog group I am on.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

car2ner said:


> Tom Davis. I am not a huge fan, BUT Sabis I love your post. I want to cut and paste that on just about every dog group I am on.


I'm not either. Too much hype and click bait.

He is an intuitive and experienced trainer that takes on some difficult dogs with success.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> *Adjust your expectations!*
> Your dog does not know or care that when you brought him home you had plans and goals. Your dog is a dog with it's own thing going on. It's up to the two of you to find the middle ground that you can both enjoy. Seriously. Like Hey buddy I thought we could be Agility champions of the world because I really want to. Dogs like sure that's cool I can eat some Poodles and then maybe we can go roll in that dead skunk in field. And you get all eeww! No! I just want you to put on these pink boots and sit pretty for the photo shoot. Dogs like I got this just let me wash up in the bog and dry off on your bed.
> No really. The dog you have is an individual and whatever you thought you need to understand that this dog may just need you to modify your thoughts.
> 
> ...


All good points. 

Here is a dog with a wagging tail


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Super super waggy tail. That dog above is what I consider heavy dose of intense. I really like mals I would never be able to keep one busy enough though. I really like the curtain of bottles.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I find these videos interesting but honestly, not a fan of the "shower food all around" method (surprise!)
Would take just minutes for a smart dog to figure out that every time they react/bark/pull, food appears from above like magic.

And Bingo .... they have just trained .... you


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> I find these videos interesting but honestly, not a fan of the "shower food all around" method (surprise!)
> Would take just minutes for a smart dog to figure out that every time they react/bark/pull, food appears from above like magic.
> 
> And Bingo .... they have just trained .... you


This is about building/changing habits. What alternative training methods do you suggest?

You are also missing the timing factor.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree wholeheartedly with adjusting your expectations, especially with puppies. People are frustrated that their 3-5 month old pup is no longer staying or broke their stay. Jeeze Louise! It's a baby and you are expecting much too much out of that baby. I am in a fortunate place because I have a lot of dogs and I can look at them and determine that this is an agility dog, this is an obedience dog, this is a dock diving prospect, this is a couch potato dog. And I can pretty much choose the dog to suit my mood and run with it. Others do have goals for a pup before they bring it home, and I suppose that that can be disappointing. But we have to remember when we get a live critter whether human or canine, that they have minds of their own, and they may not like to play little league, and they may not be an agility champion. With kids, you're pretty much stuck. But with dogs, if the dog you got for an agility champion would be better as an obedience prospect, than either sharpen up your obedience skills or find an obedience-type person who wants/needs a new dog, and buy another dog for agility. 

So far I haven't had to use muzzles much. I remember the look I got at the vet a dozen years or so, when the young females I had with me started snarking and I whipped two muzzles out of my pocket and slipped them on them lickety split. They laughed. But I did not want to deal with a blood bath. For people, so far, I haven't had to muzzle my dogs. But I have always told the vet, if I knew something would hurt, that it is ok if they want to muzzle the dog. I would rather the dog be muzzled and not bite, even at the vet when they are doing something painful. 

But the last one, I have a problem with. Stop asking to pet my dog. Get your own dog! I didn't get a dog to entertain you. This attitude so often comes from the folks that tell poor people, and college students, young people in general, and working folks that may not be in the ideal position to get a dog, to wait and not get a dog. I don't think we can have it both ways. We can't say, wait until you're retired and can give the time to a puppy, and don't come near me and mine! I agree that kids in high school and college may do better to wait, but I also think that if we have beautiful, well behaved dogs that are not aggressive to humans, we ought to let those people who for whatever reason do not have a dog, to pet our dogs, if they ask politely. If someone loves dogs, but knows they can barely support themselves, and wouldn't possibly be able to feed and vet a dog, chooses not to own one yet, and wants to ask us about our dog or pet our dog, is that really a crime? 

I have dogs and love them of course, but I have all my life wanted a horse, wanted to ride horses, love horses. Now I am a little afraid of them because falling at my age takes a lot longer to heal. So I feel it is too late. But horses are something that only folks with means can really have. You can get kicked or bitten by horses. You can scare a horse and cause injury to horse and rider if the horse bolts from something stupid you did. So I can understand horse-folks protecting their animals and themselves with an attitude. I just don't think dog people should be like that, unless our dogs are likely to cause injury to anyone.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WNGD said:


> I find these videos interesting but honestly, not a fan of the "shower food all around" method (surprise!)
> Would take just minutes for a smart dog to figure out that every time they react/bark/pull, food appears from above like magic.
> 
> And Bingo .... they have just trained .... you


It's the same principle as redirecting. A dog like the one in the video is reacting out of frustration, so you give it an outlet. 
When a puppy is biting you show it what it can bite, a dog that mouths in greeting, or jumps, is taught to bring a toy. You are teaching an incompatible behavior that prevents the dog from acting on it's impulse. 
The minute you see the dog loading you give a command that it knows will be followed by a reward, and the reward is delivered in a way that causes the dog to need to focus on the reward not the stimulus. 
The trick is catching it before the explosion.
I'm pretty sure an actual trainer has a different opinion but thats how I see it. I seldom tell my dogs what NOT to do, I just show them what I prefer and make it worth their while.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Well, WNGD, I imagine that's why the trainer says don't overuse that trick!

I use food to distract a reactive dog, too, but it has to do something (focus on me) in order to get the reward.

Edit: so pretty much what Sabis said above - give a command it knows will be followed by a reward.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> This is about building/changing habits. What alternative training methods do you suggest?
> 
> You are also missing the timing factor.


I see it's been written after your comment by others too but recognizing before it happens, redirecting attention/focus/direction of travel/on me are things that are always available when a bag stuffed with treats aren't.

People can get very defensive about the use of treats (and prongs) when training dogs and that's OK if it works for them (and the vast majority of "professional" trainers out there). And to be honest, I think I might feel differently if I were boarding/training/managing a great many dogs at a time/at once as it's a quicker means to an end, especially if it's not your dog and there's limited relationship/engagement.

Rogan is very interested in other dogs. VERY interested. Super high prey drive, DRIVEN to chase squirrels, rabbits and loves leopard frogs on the lawn, crickets, grasshoppers, whatever will run/fly. But I've been able to make him almost non dog reactive at all, even to rabbits just 50 feet ahead on the trail (we see 3-4 on virtually every walk right now). No treats, just verbal corrections if necessary, focus on a task, 

*He still gets to chase almost every squirrel in the yard.

In dog shows, why do they stuff (literally stuff) a dogs face full of treats during the "sport?" that ends with a stranger examining their parts? Because it's safe, easy, accepted and the show standard says they must allow it without flinching or over directing or growling/biting. Talk about a double standard "don't pet my dog!"

I have an idea....how about you train your dog to accept being examined by a stranger in the show where the expectation is to be examined by a stranger? To a few of the great owners on this site, please don't take exception, it's just an opinion from a simple pet owner outside the circle. Not going to debate it.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

selzer said:


> But the last one, I have a problem with. Stop asking to pet my dog. Get your own dog! I didn't get a dog to entertain you. This attitude so often comes from the folks that tell poor people, and college students, young people in general, and working folks that may not be in the ideal position to get a dog, to wait and not get a dog. I don't think we can have it both ways. We can't say, wait until you're retired and can give the time to a puppy, and don't come near me and mine! I agree that kids in high school and college may do better to wait, but I also think that if we have beautiful, well behaved dogs that are not aggressive to humans, we ought to let those people who for whatever reason do not have a dog, to pet our dogs, if they ask politely. If someone loves dogs, but knows they can barely support themselves, and wouldn't possibly be able to feed and vet a dog, chooses not to own one yet, and wants to ask us about our dog or pet our dog, is that really a crime?


Yea I gotta agree with you there. My Great Dane loved all people. I would definitely let all kids (or any grownup who asked) pet her. She would just give them a huge thumping wagging tail and feel happy. 

With this dog, I know him... I *always* (apologetically) say No, he doesn't like strangers. 

Think it depends on who you've got on the end of the leash...( in this case of this intense, wired dog, definitely a No for pets!)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> I see it's been written after your comment by others too but recognizing before it happens, redirecting attention/focus/direction of travel/on me are things that are always available when a bag stuffed with treats aren't.
> 
> People can get very defensive about the use of treats (and prongs) when training dogs and that's OK if it works for them (and the vast majority of "professional" trainers out there). And to be honest, I think I might feel differently if I were boarding/training/managing a great many dogs at a time/at once as it's a quicker means to an end, especially if it's not your dog and there's limited relationship/engagement.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure who most of this is aimed at.

You quoted me but didn't really reply to my post ,other than verbal corrections.

Do you think verbal corrections are going to work with this dog when it's biting you?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

No the whole post wasn't directed at you, most is just my further observations and opinion. 

You asked what alternative training methods I'd suggest and I replied:
"I see it's been written after your comment by others too but *recognizing before it happens, redirecting attention/focus/direction of travel/on me are things that are always available* when a bag stuffed with treats aren't.

Nothing about verbal corrections at all. Recognizing it might happen, is likely to happen, before it happens, seeing the build-up, it is happening all come hopefully before a proper correction is even necessary.

But the situation he's addressing at that specific moment was dog reactivity, not biting you. Although in that dog's case it may lead to that in frustration but not happening when he suggested raining down treats on it. In my experience, the far better alternatives were available but perhaps not the shortest route to some success for the camera when you have limited time with owners just in the for weekend.

Do I think verbal corrections will work when a dog is biting me? Of course not.
So let me ask you David, when was the last time a dog was biting you and you dug in the treat pouch for a handful? That's what we're discussing.

Dog jumping on you? Throw some treats on the ground and it stops to gobble them up.
Dog barking? Throw some treats on the ground because it's hard to bark when you're chewing.
Dog volts out the door when you open it? Throw treats on the carpet so it hesitates.
Dog won't come? Throw steak!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> No the whole post wasn't directed at you, most is just my further observations and opinion.
> 
> You asked what alternative training methods I'd suggest and I replied:
> "I see it's been written after your comment by others too but *recognizing before it happens, redirecting attention/focus/direction of travel/on me are things that are always available* when a bag stuffed with treats aren't.
> ...


Either we are watching a different video or you are failing to recognize that the dog redirects several times. It has a muzzle on so no one gets bit.

I typically use a toy reward for this type of training, but the reward depends on the dog. My Cane Corso was trained for reactive aggression (actual bites) using food. Tom is using the drives the dog has (food and hunt) to his advantage.

I would say I have definitely done things similar. You seem to think that all dogs can be trained using the same methods.

ETA:

How do you successfully redirect if your voice isn't as motivating as the distraction? Isn't the technique in question simple redirection using something more powerful than the distraction for this particular dog?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@WNGD when Shadow was young, really young, she displayed responses that were all over the map! It was conceivable that in any given walk I would need to use 6 or 7 different approaches to counter her responses. I could get total shut down that required me to bodily pick her up and move her away because she was frozen, or I could get a snarling, lunging disaster that needed me to dodge bites/block bites/restrain her until she ran out of steam and I could snap her out of it. And every response in between. 
I had handled aggressive dogs, I had handled scared dogs, I had handled plain old stubborn dogs. I had never handled a dog that could and would throw the whole darn book at me in one sitting. And until I did I could not comprehend what on earth all the fuss was about. Redirection was huge, teaching an alternate response was also key. But beyond that I needed to learn to read, really read, my dog and do it quickly. Because don't let her size fool you, this dog plays for keeps. 
Most of the GSD's I rescued made bad trainers look good. Because they were good dogs. Some had ok drives, some were smarter then others, some seemed like they were great dogs. All were fairly typical of pet stock and required minimal management and training to make them look fabulous. Most pet dogs fall into this category so people, even people who have had several dogs, are hard pressed to understand that not all dogs will respond to mediocre training. And most of us are at best mediocre trainers. 
There were notable exceptions. Aggressive and dominant? Stryker springs to mind. Loved that dog, and he taught me so much. Pick a fight with him and you better be ready because he liked to fight. Ace was another. Push him around? Not in this lifetime. Bud had not a dominant bone in his body, he was just plain aggressive. 
My very rambling point is that a majority of pet owners will never deal with any real aggression from a dog, many will never even see a real challenge. Maybe a bit of resource guarding or some spoiled brat behavior. They will call David and he will fix the issue that was not really an issue and everyone will be happy. So to say YOU don't need such methods is fine. But to think that you can handle a truly aggressive or dominant dog the same way you handle your current dog is a bit arrogant.
Very famous quote, name escapes me, Will James?. It applies to many situations including this one and I try to remember it every day.

"There never was a horse that couldn’t be rode or a man that couldn’t be throwed”


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I spent over an hour today texting with a friend of my cousin's, whose GSD/husky attacked my cousin's poodle. It was bad enough that the poodle needed some stitches. Fortunately, the poodle has a great temperament - I was the one who assessed the litter, and picked him out, as he was originally my mother's dog. I definitely made a good choice that day, and he took the attack in stride, and was wanting to 'make nice' with the other dog very shortly after the attack.

I taught her my method for redirecting, which involves getting the dog's attention focused on you, and away from the distraction as soon as it shows the slightest interest in the other dog. The dog is then rewarded with treats. 

It sounds like her dog has become fear aggressive because it thinks it has to protect her. I told her if she is approached by an off-leash dog, she should get in front of her dog, to show the dog that she is in control and doesn't need protection. Up until now, she's been dropping the leash, because that seems to de-escalate her dog's reactivity. I said that was the wrong thing to do: what if the other dog is not dog-friendly, and, given the recent attack on the poodle, what if HER dog decides to escalate things instead of de-escalate! 

She told me most of the dogs she meets during walks in town are OFF LEASH. My reaction was, wow, no wonder she's got a problem, and just imagine what would happen if she tried the method used in the video of throwing treats on the ground!! 😳


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

selzer said:


> But the last one, I have a problem with. Stop asking to pet my dog.


I don't have a problem with people asking, but I have a real problem with people who either don't ask or come over and try to pet anyway when I say no. I stopped taking my dogs (and myself) out into public places since Covid and truly life is simpler. But then I live out in the boonies, with lots of woods, so I have the luxury of a place where my pups can play without having to interact with outsiders.
None of my shepherds have been particularly happy to be around strangers. Dasha will tolerate people but she gets all wiggly which is how she shows her anxiety. Natty can be reactive, raising his hackles and growling/barking. He's big so this gets a reaction that actually reinforces that behavior so if I can I ask people to please stay back but ignore him. Redirecting with food doesn't work for him during those times. He will just ignore treats. It all depends on the drive.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> @WNGD when Shadow was young, really young, she displayed responses that were all over the map! It was conceivable that in any given walk I would need to use 6 or 7 different approaches to counter her responses. I could get total shut down that required me to bodily pick her up and move her away because she was frozen, or I could get a snarling, lunging disaster that needed me to dodge bites/block bites/restrain her until she ran out of steam and I could snap her out of it. And every response in between.
> I had handled aggressive dogs, I had handled scared dogs, I had handled plain old stubborn dogs. I had never handled a dog that could and would throw the whole darn book at me in one sitting. And until I did I could not comprehend what on earth all the fuss was about. Redirection was huge, teaching an alternate response was also key. But beyond that I needed to learn to read, really read, my dog and do it quickly. Because don't let her size fool you, this dog plays for keeps.
> Most of the GSD's I rescued made bad trainers look good. Because they were good dogs. Some had ok drives, some were smarter then others, some seemed like they were great dogs. All were fairly typical of pet stock and required minimal management and training to make them look fabulous. Most pet dogs fall into this category so people, even people who have had several dogs, are hard pressed to understand that not all dogs will respond to mediocre training. And most of us are at best mediocre trainers.
> There were notable exceptions. Aggressive and dominant? Stryker springs to mind. Loved that dog, and he taught me so much. Pick a fight with him and you better be ready because he liked to fight. Ace was another. Push him around? Not in this lifetime. Bud had not a dominant bone in his body, he was just plain aggressive.
> ...


This is why working dog trainers don't post here. It's a constant argument.

"I've trained my dogs for 30 years and I've never needed (insert thing here) and my 6 dogs were perfect."

Right. So Ivan Balabanov, Michael Ellis, Mike Diehl, Larry Krohn, Bart Bellon, all the trainers you never hear of that train military and LE dogs every day, they are all just taking the easy way out. It doesn't matter that they literally spend their entire lives working to be better trainers, 16 hours a day plus reading in the evening, going to seminars, watching videos... It just matters that pookie is a good dog, with no real job or test, and every dog is obviously the same. Us trainers are just looking for the quick buck, though we train our dogs using the same techniques where applicable. It's not like we need to understand drive and motivation to get a dog to work, right? You just hit that button on the e-collar, yank on that prong and choke that dog into working off leash in a hostile urban environment with bullets flying around. 

If only someone would have introduced us to the halti, the bonker and the verbal correction. Things would be so much simpler!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> You just hit that button on the e-collar, yank on that prong and choke that dog into working off leash in a hostile urban environment with bullets flying around.


I'm sorry but this made me laugh. I got this cartoon image of David flying through the air amid a hail of bullets behind a raging Fama while frantically hitting that button.
I think part of the disconnect might be that pet owners never really challenge dogs. There is nothing to fight about. 
Sabi was a trained and highly effective patrol dog, but she really wasn't good at the job. She was very, very good at doing anything she had to do to be my partner. She was one of those out of the box dogs. I was just there for the ride.
Dogs like Bud and Shadow are awesome because they push me to think and learn. So I like watching videos. Even if I don't agree and I don't need the info sometime down the road I might.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I'm sorry but this made me laugh. I got this cartoon image of David flying through the air amid a hail of bullets behind a raging Fama while frantically hitting that button.
> I think part of the disconnect might be that pet owners never really challenge dogs. There is nothing to fight about.
> Sabi was a trained and highly effective patrol dog, but she really wasn't good at the job. She was very, very good at doing anything she had to do to be my partner. She was one of those out of the box dogs. I was just there for the ride.
> Dogs like Bud and Shadow are awesome because they push me to think and learn. So I like watching videos. Even if I don't agree and I don't need the info sometime down the road I might.


Now that made me laugh lol.

I think you have it backwards. Pet dogs really don't challenge owners in a serious way, so it must not happen. They never have to think their way around a fight to get the behavior they want.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

When you are standing in an empty parking lot swinging a dog around on the end of a leash to keep it from tearing your face off you really start to question if this is truly mans best friend.
It is in those moments that you realize how slowly your brain functions as you scramble to find the mental file that contains the instructions you were given. You also realize that this hellhound is in no way related to Lassie. She doesn't want to save you from the well, she's going to bury you in it.
My boss made it all look easy, I looked like Pigpen dragging my blanket around in a cloud of dust.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> When you are standing in an empty parking lot swinging a dog around on the end of a leash to keep it from tearing your face off you really start to question if this is truly mans best friend.
> It is in those moments that you realize how slowly your brain functions as you scramble to find the mental file that contains the instructions you were given. You also realize that this hellhound is in no way related to Lassie. She doesn't want to save you from the well, she's going to bury you in it.
> My boss made it all look easy, I looked like Pigpen dragging my blanket around in a cloud of dust.


But did you give a verbal correction and redirect onto... Something? There was your mistake.

Been there. Done that lol. It's a steep learning curve.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I didn't like them throwing the food on the ground, but there was a lot of good stuff in that video. It also showed how even an experienced trainer can have things get out of control from time to time. Luckily, the dog was wearing a muzzle, and the trainer knew how to deal with him until he calmed down. 

So many videos just show the 'good stuff' - you see the dog misbehaving, then the trainer explains the solution, the owner does it - BANG! Everything's fine.

Doesn't work that way in real life...


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

That throwing of food I see as a very good beginning method of what could evolve into so much more. Once the wife gets a real good grip on reading her dog and acquiring a lot of confidence, that is going to have a good effect all together.

that throwing could be paired with a “go sniff” command as soon as the dog locks onto a potential victim say “go sniff” throw the food.. Eventually phase out the food and the hand signal and voila, you have your verbal. This works, I have done it with mine (nowhere near as crazy agressive, but still….)

had to reply (riding on the wake of David’s heels. So to speak.)


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I like Tom Davis. I like his thought process and how he communicates with the owners. I previously saw that video. I love his points about dealing with the dog you have, muzzles, and people asking to pet your dog. I appreciate him trying to educate people on that. 

I sent my dog to Ivan Balabanov’s board and train. I have DVDs from Michael Ellis. I like watching Larry Krohn, and Stonnie Dennis. I had the biggest results with dog reactivity myself using Beckman’s Dog Training on how to walk a dog on leash. For whatever reason, that approach clicked with Dexter.

I take bits and pieces from every trainer I watch. Different approaches work with different dogs. While I have my issues with the purely positive trainers, their approach would have worked with my Golden. My other dogs, not a chance. I don’t always agree 100% with any trainer, but that doesn’t stop me from learning from them. And if something they say helps me and my dog, we’re the better for it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WNGD said:


> In dog shows, why do they stuff (literally stuff) a dogs face full of treats during the "sport?" that ends with a stranger examining their parts? Because it's safe, easy, accepted and the show standard says they must allow it without flinching or over directing or growling/biting. Talk about a double standard "don't pet my dog!"
> 
> I have an idea....how about you train your dog to accept being examined by a stranger in the show where the expectation is to be examined by a stranger? To a few of the great owners on this site, please don't take exception, it's just an opinion from a simple pet owner outside the circle. Not going to debate it.


I find this puzzling. I have shown in obedience and in rally. I took classes in conformation and agility but have never shown in them. In obedience, rally, and the CGC, you cannot have ANY treats in the ring. Any examination by the judge is done without treats. People scoff at the CGC. But in that, the judge comes up and greets you, and moves on. Another test is the judge touching your dog on the head, chest, each ear and the front paws. At another point the judge moves your brush down the dog's back. That is more than what they do in any Rally level and in the CD (novice obedience). Is it a perfect temperament test, no. One can condition the dog to accept these advances or not. But the point is that when you take the dog to the vet, or the groomer, the dog accepts touch. 

In rally advanced or excellent the judge may measure your dog for the jump size, but I don't recall that ever actually happening. In Obedience novice (CD). The judge comes up touches your dog on the head, back, and butt while you are 6' away. Then you return to your dog. They may begin by training this with treats, but at a dog show, just having treats in your pocket is an NQ.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Heartandsoul said:


> That throwing of food I see as a very good beginning method of what could evolve into so much more. Once the wife gets a real good grip on reading her dog and acquiring a lot of confidence, that is going to have a good effect all together.
> 
> that throwing could be paired with a “go sniff” command as soon as the dog locks onto a potential victim say “go sniff” throw the food.. Eventually phase out the food and the hand signal and voila, you have your verbal. This works, I have done it with mine (nowhere near as crazy agressive, but still….)
> 
> had to reply (riding on the wake of David’s heels. So to speak.)


My sister is taking her pup to training for being reactive with dogs. They have her pumping treats into him when he looks at another dog. The idea that they want to instill is that good things happen when other dogs are around. I don't know how I feel about that, but it must work. I'm old school, I guess. I just give a little leash correction and say "knock it off!" or "You've seen dogs before."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

techinstructor said:


> I don't have a problem with people asking, but I have a real problem with people who either don't ask or come over and try to pet anyway when I say no. I stopped taking my dogs (and myself) out into public places since Covid and truly life is simpler. But then I live out in the boonies, with lots of woods, so I have the luxury of a place where my pups can play without having to interact with outsiders.
> None of my shepherds have been particularly happy to be around strangers. Dasha will tolerate people but she gets all wiggly which is how she shows her anxiety. Natty can be reactive, raising his hackles and growling/barking. He's big so this gets a reaction that actually reinforces that behavior so if I can I ask people to please stay back but ignore him. Redirecting with food doesn't work for him during those times. He will just ignore treats. It all depends on the drive.



I don't have a problem with saying no to the question of petting the pup/dog. We know how much our dog has been through today, what his temperament is, and how much chaos is currently in the air. We should ALWAYS feel comfortable saying "no." My problem is with just across the board, the attitude that we should expect no one to want to pet our dog, to get their own dog if they want to pet a dog. Some dogs are simply unsafe to be petted by strangers, and it would be irresponsible to allow it with them. But for the dogs that would be fine, we should share them some of the time with people who ask properly.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think it’s important to make sure your dog is comfortable as each person is a different situation. Dogs can smell a lot of things. People do think they they have a gift with dogs and do not want to learn anythinghad strangers actually sit and roll on the ground and try to wrestle my dogs thinking yes all dogs love them and want to play physically. It’s good to talk to a person feel out situations put in some examples etc. it’s good for the dog to know that he does not need to share his energy with everyone.

In the video I saw the trainer using positive training with treats along leash corrections along with an e collar. Not common is what I found in trainers. All lot of positive trainers shun prong collars. I appreciate the mention of two years old in the video. A big age that show all the holes in training as it is when dogs will challenge what you have. I thought the muzzle was a great idea it would make the owners feel more at ease.

We did a lot of focus work with dogs and treats in class. The ball worked as minimal redirecting and reminding to focus on me. Max would ignore a giant Dinosaur walking by if the ball was out. It was though when no ball and treats were available was where I was struggling with and seems to be at a loss. I to felt a good correction leash pop ( which I did in class and was corrected for it - would of stopped this early on- as this now was becoming a habit ) we did not need to learn other dogs meant good things. It was not reactivity - or fear. It was being a complete jerk and bully which he enjoyed being. (He liked using his teeth although he would not cause damage. )He would sit in class with his head on my foot as we waiting out turn. I would have to shake his head off my foot.

What really helped was ecollar training which tied it all together if a command was blown off. With that though I did learn when walking through all those dogs without ecollars , balls treats - i learned myself he needed light connective reminders to keep his brain with me, a known leave it command and a light light jiggle of the leash after knowing corrections was my new answer to my struggle after walking past dogs when it was our turn in noseworkclass. As some days were more struggling if a female was in heat with many males in class- he needed those reminders. He once was hit with a the wooden fence as we were on our way walking into the search area for being a jerk. It did not slow him down at all when we we walked into the search area he was 150% on task off leash. It’s were the leave it command was the magic word.

I can now have Max walk by a dozen of dogs staring at us 3 feet away with a super light reminder to leave it. With out an ecollar on. Weekends at the beach are real crowded and tons of dogs. He can be off leash as well although there will not be many times I would put him in that 3 feet position off leash as it’s never needed but he would shine. He needs a break from salt water when a long day at the beach. I can go swimming in the water for approx 46 minutes with him at a stay as dozens and dozens of people walked by. No ecollar. Getting tO swim in the ocean when on a particular day it looks like it’s from the tropics. With max watching over me super well behaved is my wins. I can easily see who is coming or going and I like to shout out reminders to stay although not needed. We are not dependent on any tools even though we used them. 
Older photos of nosework class and some
beach pics with no balls. Max was concerned about my sister swimming and wanting checking to make sure she was okay. I have a video she would not me to post that lol.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

selzer said:


> I find this puzzling. I have shown in obedience and in rally. I took classes in conformation and agility but have never shown in them. In obedience, rally, and the CGC, you cannot have ANY treats in the ring. Any examination by the judge is done without treats. People scoff at the CGC. But in that, the judge comes up and greets you, and moves on. Another test is the judge touching your dog on the head, chest, each ear and the front paws. At another point the judge moves your brush down the dog's back. That is more than what they do in any Rally level and in the CD (novice obedience). Is it a perfect temperament test, no. One can condition the dog to accept these advances or not. But the point is that when you take the dog to the vet, or the groomer, the dog accepts touch.
> 
> In rally advanced or excellent the judge may measure your dog for the jump size, but I don't recall that ever actually happening. In Obedience novice (CD). The judge comes up touches your dog on the head, back, and butt while you are 6' away. Then you return to your dog. They may begin by training this with treats, but at a dog show, just having treats in your pocket is an NQ.


Very first video that came up in a long line of a search:
Westminster Kennel Club show. At .30, .32, .33, 56, 4 different dogs all being stuffed 





I don't watch a lot of dog shows but my impression is that I've seen many of the dogs being distracted/fed treats while examined to the point where I thought it was almost mandatory/expected. Some of the little/nippier dogs they are literally stuffing food into their mouths. No matter, this thread ran off the rails and I'll keep out of it now.

btw, I found video of the exact same trainer taking an aggressive biting GSD (VERY similar situation) and training with a prong, not throwing treats in the grass. Differences of opinion seem to be divisive around here so I won't prolong it but I know that if some pet owner had suggested that prong, someone would come along and say that would result in a dog coming up the leash at you . Maybe Tom recognized that the first GSD would have ramped up with the prong and went with the muzzle instead, clearly what do I know....


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WNGD said:


> btw, I found video of the exact same trainer taking an aggressive biting GSD (VERY similar situation) and training with a prong,


Not the same situation, not the same behavior. The GSD is being a brat. Not at all aggressive. He is spoiled and has learned that acting like a twit gets him his way. The Dutchie in the original video is aggressive and dominant. He is looking for a fight.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@WNGD I'm curious as to how you would keep a dog still and stacked while being examined in a confirmation show?I've seen handlers using both food and squeaky toys.Ive always assumed it's to speed up the process and keep the judge safe since the exam is invasive, checking teeth and genitals.
Treats aren't allowed in any of the other AKC competitions where the dogs stand for exam.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> @WNGD I'm curious as to how you would keep a dog still and stacked while being examined in a confirmation show?I've seen handlers using both food and squeaky toys.Ive always assumed it's to speed up the process and keep the judge safe since the exam is invasive, checking teeth and genitals.
> Treats aren't allowed in any of the other AKC competitions where the dogs stand for exam.


I teach stand for exam because I like my vet and groomer. I clicker train it from day 1 with food lures.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I told my handler that trying to bait Nora in the ring is a no go. The dog is totally uninterested in food while in the show ring. I have yet to see her ever take a treat from anyone. Scarlet is a different story. Using bait with her will just get you hurt. She acts like she hasn’t eaten in a week. Bait really just seems to be good for getting ears up. A lot of judges don’t like handlers using bait either. 

It’s kind of handy having a show dog when you go to the vet. They are easy to examine.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am pretty sure that I remember a fairly well know handler(Mary White) telling me that she used bait to get the dogs attention. Ears forward, etc. I also seem to recall that she held the bait in her mouth, lol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> Not the same situation, not the same behavior. The GSD is being a brat. Not at all aggressive. He is spoiled and has learned that acting like a twit gets him his way. The Dutchie in the original video is aggressive and dominant. He is looking for a fight.





WNGD said:


> Very first video that came up in a long line of a search:
> Westminster Kennel Club show. At .30, .32, .33, 56, 4 different dogs all being stuffed
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, this is conformation showing. They rarely televise anything else. I suppose when it comes to dogs, they think that is all that is important. The thing is, people who show in conformation often do not train obedience because it is counter productive. When you stop in obedience the dog sits at your side in heel position. In the conformation rink dogs NEVER sit. They may be stacked, and they trot around, pulling out front -- in obedience you do not want your dog to pull you anywhere. In obedience and Rally you are not to train in the ring, and you don't have treats, because training is done prior to the day that you show. In conformation showing, how well trained a dog is, doesn't matter at all. Yes you don't want the dog to bite the judge, and you train the dog to stack or to stay still when you've stacked him, but really what you are looking for is a dog with a lot of spirit, energy, drive, joy of life. It isn't enough to have a pretty dog or a correct dog, the dog has to look like it is a winner, it is happy to be there, it is confident. It's a whole other ball of wax, so those treats in the ring, generally referred to as bait, is used to position the dog, to distract the dog so it is more interested in the liver than it is in the man checking out its berries. And you use the bait to show how alert and I don't know, to show the dog in its best element. And it is perfectly legal in the conformation ring. 

Some folks train in obedience with different collars so the dog knows by the collar what is expected. But I don't think that is common. And, whatever that dude up there in the UK says, in shepherds, often they are not handler owned. They generally work in the rings with professional handlers. These people don't want you to mess them up with the dog, by expecting that dog to walk alongside. Sometimes the handler meets you there at the show. Or another handler that he has never met takes over your dog because the handler you expect your dog to be with has more than one dog in the class, or in a class at the same exact time. Yes they use treats, because prong collars are not allowed on the premises, and if you clobber your dog for being a jerk, you can be pulled on the carpet and disciplined by the AKC. So what do they have, they have treats. And these handlers know how to use treats, and it is pretty universal among dogs. Of course dogs with questionable temperaments, i.e. shy, nervous dogs may not be able to eat, and they aren't good prospects for the conformation ring. Because the conformation ring is to find the best of the best to determine who should be bred. That is what is all about, and a dog too nervous to be interested in liver when in the ring shouldn't be in the ring and shouldn't be bred.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> …………. The Dutchie in the original video is aggressive and dominant. He is looking for a fight.


This made me think of Boru, Slamdunc’s K9, and the many posts on how he got trained and got through to him. (Learned a ton from all those threads.)
Boru was probably way more dog but.……

I wish there was an update vid. I think with this Dutchie, less conflict more thoughtful work arounds and I wonder since he likes to fight, give him appropriate outlets. yeah probably nutty …. Wee hour thoughts.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

selzer said:


> So far I haven't had to use muzzles much. I remember the look I got at the vet a dozen years or so, when the young females I had with me started snarking and I whipped two muzzles out of my pocket and slipped them on them lickety split. They laughed. But I did not want to deal with a blood bath. For people, so far, I haven't had to muzzle my dogs. But I have always told the vet, if I knew something would hurt, that it is ok if they want to muzzle the dog. I would rather the dog be muzzled and not bite, even at the vet when they are doing something painful.


This and this and this... over and over again. The first words out of my mouth to the vet that I am paying to fix or keep my dog safe "Use a muzzle if you're concerned, get the job done." I haven't ever owned a needlessly aggressive dog and I don't tolerate bites and nipping beyond the puppy stage - but I've always had large, and what I imagine to some people are intimidating dogs. Put that dog in a strange place, which a strange person poking at them.. add an injury or illness.. who knows how it turns out. I'm mostly shocked at how appreciative they are when I mention it first and often have the muzzle they've been taught to wear handy. I haven't ever understood someone being so against a muzzle that they'd allow a professional they're paying to be injured by their dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Selzer, some of these GSD show dogs are so skittish that at one show I heard about, some of the handlers asked the ring announcer to STOP making announcements over the P.A. system as it was spooking their dogs! Good temperament is NOT a necessity.

There's a temperament test for the GSD that requires them to be gunsure. Gunsureness has always been part of the breed standard. Guess how many show dogs have actually passed that test?  Darn few, because most of them can't!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

If a dog can’t handle the PA system at a show, they are going to have a hard time showing. My handler’s mother has been breeding GSDs for about 30 years. They always do the temperament test on their dogs, and I’ve yet to hear of one of theirs not pass. My circle of GSD friends put a big emphasis on temperament.

Nora just showed in her very first show last month. The show was huge - over 2000 dogs entered each day. She was 9 months old, and had only had a couple of handling lessons. She managed to show without a meltdown, and even went winners bitch. She doesn’t have the pizzazz and attitude of her sister Scarlet, but she did pretty good for a baby. Frankly, you could barely hear the PA system over the din of barking dogs and blow dryers, lol.

My “stressed out“ show dog. She’s such a goon.


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## AnnaMarie (May 17, 2021)

I love original post. I have a Dutchie. Yep I’m a bad owner who didn’t research but did quickly. Ordered vest and kept ordering till he is now in a large at its smallest setting. Always with dog in training, ask to pet. When I started walking her as she became reactive she got muzzled. Omg I thought the world was crashing down with the comments. Oh and a prong collar how dare I. Two walks with the muzzle and it wasn’t needed. Well except for grooming. She still need the prong for walks just to redirect occasionally at 7 months.

This is a strong dog. She is my dog. Yes she is friendly when I say so. So stay away until she does what I want then you may approach.

Its my dog mind your own business. If it’s working and she’s happy, why do you care?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

AnnaMarie said:


> I love original post. I have a Dutchie. Yep I’m a bad owner who didn’t research but did quickly. Ordered vest and kept ordering till he is now in a large at its smallest setting. Always with dog in training, ask to pet. When I started walking her as she became reactive she got muzzled. Omg I thought the world was crashing down with the comments. Oh and a prong collar how dare I. Two walks with the muzzle and it wasn’t needed. Well except for grooming. She still need the prong for walks just to redirect occasionally at 7 months.
> 
> This is a strong dog. She is my dog. Yes she is friendly when I say so. So stay away until she does what I want then you may approach.
> 
> Its my dog mind your own business. If it’s working and she’s happy, why do you care?


Blind sided by a Dutchie lol.

I commend you on your fortitude.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

AnnaMarie said:


> I love original post. I have a Dutchie. Yep I’m a bad owner who didn’t research but did quickly. Ordered vest and kept ordering till he is now in a large at its smallest setting. Always with dog in training, ask to pet. When I started walking her as she became reactive she got muzzled. Omg I thought the world was crashing down with the comments. Oh and a prong collar how dare I. Two walks with the muzzle and it wasn’t needed. Well except for grooming. She still need the prong for walks just to redirect occasionally at 7 months.
> 
> This is a strong dog. She is my dog. Yes she is friendly when I say so. So stay away until she does what I want then you may approach.
> 
> Its my dog mind your own business. If it’s working and she’s happy, why do you care?


Love this! I've never researched anything in my life. But don't tell anyone ok?
I got called all sorts of nasty things over walking a muzzled dog, and mine still wears a muzzle if we are going to be around people a lot. When I started with the prong I thought the general public was going to show up with torches and burn me at the stake. Fortunately I don't use it often anymore. I don't actually understand why anyone cares what I do with my dog. 
But I have discovered over the years that if I bark and growl at them when they comment they go away!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> If a dog can’t handle the PA system at a show, they are going to have a hard time showing. My handler’s mother has been breeding GSDs for about 30 years. They always do the temperament test on their dogs, and I’ve yet to hear of one of theirs not pass. My circle of GSD friends put a big emphasis on temperament.
> 
> Nora just showed in her very first show last month. The show was huge - over 2000 dogs entered each day. She was 9 months old, and had only had a couple of handling lessons. She managed to show without a meltdown, and even went winners bitch. She doesn’t have the pizzazz and attitude of her sister Scarlet, but she did pretty good for a baby. Frankly, you could barely hear the PA system over the din of barking dogs and blow dryers, lol.
> 
> ...


Temperament is the first part of the standard, and conformation dogs do have to display temperament. But so many of the judges are owners, and when I heard a judge say, temperament is first, but of course on a night like this (it was a thunder storm), she would take that into consideration. Say what?!? You would put up a dog that displays anxiety in a thunderstorm?!? No wonder the breed has temperament issues. But whatever. I've had my dogs at huge dog shows too, 2000+ dogs and people and and venders and carts and crates and blow dryers and barking ankle biters and charging newfoundlands. I had my nieces there on the third day when Quinn got her title, and we needed lunch and the crate was already back in the car, so I put her on a down stay at the edge of the carpeted area where the food was (dogs were not allowed on the carpeted area). And the girls got the food, and I joined them at the table about 20-30' away, and I ate my lunch. I had to run back over a few times because people were stopping and trying to engage with her, but she held that stay. And I knew she would not attack a person or an animal. And the people at dog shows with their animals are not trying to get the dogs to play together -- that's pet dog people behavior. The dog show people just want everyone's dogs to be under control. Those same kids walked Quinnie's sire out of that show when they were just 8 and not quite 8. I carried all the gear, and Mufasa was not quite 2, wearing just a martingale and the girls handled him fine in that insanity. And yes, there was a PA system. 

The worst thing I encountered at a dog show was at a fairgrounds, we were inside a fairgrounds building that was open on all sides, and just as the dogs in obedience were put on a down stay, and huge, honking garbage truck, choked and puked all the way around the building. Babs stayed, but she stood up. The judge was awesome and allowed us to redo the stay. And she got her title leg. Maybe she shouldn't have let us. But how many people train their dogs in the stays when a garbage truck is going around the building? Had she NQ'd us, I would have accepted that too. She had only one excellent dog in Rally, so she asked me to be the second dog in the ring, and to run the course with Babs while that dog did a down-stay. We hadn't done Rally excellent at that point, but Babs was fine. I miss going to shows. When Quinnie died, I just stopped. I took Kojak to some classes, but he was a barfy, car-sick puppy, and we stopped going to classes. I think I took Tinnie to one set of classes, but then Covid struck and dog classes have been impossible for me. 

Oh, I really wasn't trying to make the dog show bit about temperament, I was just explaining that conformation dogs are treated (literally) a bit different than performance where the training of the dog is actually being judged.


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## SulcoPete (Sep 10, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> *Adjust your expectations!*
> Your dog does not know or care that when you brought him home you had plans and goals. Your dog is a dog with it's own thing going on. It's up to the two of you to find the middle ground that you can both enjoy. Seriously. Like Hey buddy I thought we could be Agility champions of the world because I really want to. Dogs like sure that's cool I can eat some Poodles and then maybe we can go roll in that dead skunk in field. And you get all eeww! No! I just want you to put on these pink boots and sit pretty for the photo shoot. Dogs like I got this just let me wash up in the bog and dry off on your bed.
> No really. The dog you have is an individual and whatever you thought you need to understand that this dog may just need you to modify your thoughts.
> 
> ...


Wow - as the owner of a pet GSD, this is not a mindset I agree with or would aspire to. I suppose people have GSD's for all different reasons, tho, so I guess if yours is to protect a junkyard, or military/law enforcement and trained to attack then maybe there's something to this? My GSD is one year old, we live in Brooklyn and I have people, young and old and even children interacting with my dog on a daily basis. I'm proud to say my dog is extremely well behaved, has never shown agression towards a human and that's the way I like it. She brings joy wherever she goes and makes me proud. But I'm training her to behave around the people, not the other way around. I have read that with a GSD this sweet disposition will change with age. I sure hope it won't....she's due to be spayed later this month and that concerns me too. I want my dog to be as friendly and affectionate as possible. Her looks on the street are intimidating enough for me....people do approach with cautuon just because of her size - at 70 plus pounds and strong, she's no lap dog. But once they see her demeanor people really enjoy petting her and she always brings so much joy! These days if my dog can bring a smile to a stranger's face then that's how I'd like to spend my time.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@SulcoPete sounds like your girl is perfect for you and your lifestyle, which is wonderful.Temperment is genetic not something that be determined by the owner. We can work with what we have and enhance the best qualities and learn to manage the not so good.


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## pfeller (Sep 10, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> *Stop vilifying...*
> Personally I think more people should be leashed and muzzled but the cops said I am not allowed to do that anymore. Apparently slapping peoples noses and telling them to go lay down is also frowned on...


this made my morning...
but seriously, wouldn't both those actions make the world a better place? Maybe a petition should be started to allow these things.


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## SulcoPete (Sep 10, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> @SulcoPete sounds like your girl is perfect for you and your lifestyle, which is wonderful.Temperment is genetic not something that be determined by the owner. We can work with what we have and enhance the best qualities and learn to manage the not so good.


Understood, and thanks! It should be said there's a much darker side of my mentality - which is that the dogs are here for the people and not the other way around. Right from the beginning....I didn't rescue or adopt my dog - it came from a breeder where I met both parents who were perfectly fine with meeting me, a stranger, and in their home. But the point I'm trying to make is that I believe it would be a much greater tragedy if a child died compared to a dog dying. So by whatever cosmological scale that holds true, the dogs come second to the people. I didn't get my dog to rescue a dog, I got my dog because I knew that my dog would help me become a better version of myself, on many different levels....exercise, companionship, routine, socially etc. I believe the benefits to having a dog are innumerable. But if push came to shove and my dog became aggressive towards people, it would go back to the breeder as per the contract that I signed. I just wouldn't be able to keep it in my circumstance, where I'm the superintendent of the building where I live, and there's dogs, kids and people of all kinds everywhere. I also believe that if a dog is unpredictable and capable of biting randomly and causing serious injury, then that animal should be put down. I told the same to a woman here last month, who posted the pictures of the serious wounds to both her arms. So yes, I'm all about peace and love, but only at a heavy price. People who have the space, patience and heart to deal with aggressive animals are really to be admired for their compassion and generosity - from this side I wouldn't even try it.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@SulcoPete that's not a dark side, just practical


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SulcoPete said:


> Wow - as the owner of a pet GSD, this is not a mindset I agree with or would aspire to. I suppose people have GSD's for all different reasons, tho, so I guess if yours is to protect a junkyard, or military/law enforcement and trained to attack then maybe there's something to this? My GSD is one year old, we live in Brooklyn and I have people, young and old and even children interacting with my dog on a daily basis. I'm proud to say my dog is extremely well behaved, has never shown agression towards a human and that's the way I like it. She brings joy wherever she goes and makes me proud. But I'm training her to behave around the people, not the other way around. I have read that with a GSD this sweet disposition will change with age. I sure hope it won't....she's due to be spayed later this month and that concerns me too. I want my dog to be as friendly and affectionate as possible. Her looks on the street are intimidating enough for me....people do approach with cautuon just because of her size - at 70 plus pounds and strong, she's no lap dog. But once they see her demeanor people really enjoy petting her and she always brings so much joy! These days if my dog can bring a smile to a stranger's face then that's how I'd like to spend my time.


My old girl was a working dog, who spent her off time playing with the kids, or any kids she could find. She was a nanny to countless foster pups, and various baby animals that I found and adopted. She was also stunningly good at her job and had zero issues with putting her teeth to use as needed. 
Discernment is supposed to be present. People get into trouble with lots of really good dogs because they fail to set boundaries. The Black GSD in the second video was not aggressive at all, he was just a spoiled brat who needed someone to show him how to behave. I don't think the Dutchie in the first video was a bad dog. In fact he looked like a fun dog. I think he needed better handling and some structure. 
It always bothers me when people say they want a watered down version of a German Shepherd. They are working dogs, they aren't supposed to be parlor dogs. And it's a slippery slope. The dog I have now is fond of hiding behind me and barking at things, she also bites when she is afraid and the act of attempting to protect me stresses her out for hours. That is what becomes of continuous breeding of watered down dogs.
I'm not saying your dog is not a good dog, all dogs deserve to be loved. And I do agree that blatant human aggression is not something that has a place in a companion animal. I never took dogs that had shown any aggression toward children, and I never will. I know of no working breed that should be aggressive toward family or children. 
But my dog is my dog and allowing everyone on the planet to touch her is not my job or hers. Frankly I think that people that expect to be able to pet every dog are rude. I have no problem talking to people about dogs, and if she chooses to be friendly that is certainly her choice otherwise she will sit quietly beside me and I expect that her space will be respected, and I will enforce that for her.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I meet two ladies about 70 years old on my morning walk pretty much 1 or 2 mornings out of 5. Met them this morning. They LOVE the dogs, always stop for a quick chat and know the dogs names and talk to them like older ladies like to do. They are clearly very comfortable with them, comment on how beautiful and well behaved they were (initially, I always had the dogs in a sit/stay when they were passing) but have never asked to pet them. And I don't ask or encourage it.

I met my lady neighbor this morning (late 70's?), she often walks for exercise back and forth between her house and my waterfall. She knows Harley well but really hasn't met Rogan. She asked and actually used the word "with your permission" if she could meet Rogan as he looks intimidating and she doesn't want to be afraid of him. He has developed into a good guard dog that alerts/barks deeply if a car or person approaches the private bridge onto our property. In that case though, absolutely she can meet the neighbor and Rogan met her without issue if I allow it. But he doesn't hang around to be pet, he allowed it and walked away, the aloof nature of the GSD temperament in full display. 

I have said before, I'll often let kids meet them if they ask. Generally not adult strangers. But truthfully, not many ask; I'm told I don't look too friendly


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Since I have been, due to genetics or shaped by experiences, typically an introverted, shy person, who doesn't like people all that much in general, my dogs who are supposed to be aloof, by their breed, have forced me to interact with people. Some of whom I have sought out for something to do with my dogs, but others are perfect strangers who are interested in my dogs. There is something about shy personalities, human or canine, that we do not like being the center of attention. The dogs generally like attention. So, my tongue becomes untied when both sides of the conversation are focused on the dogs. And if you have a shy dog, try having a conversation with people where neither of you are focusing on the dog, trying to pet it, etc. so that the shy dog can relax in the presence of people she does not know. If this is repeated occasionally, some of that shyness my relax if the pup/dog. Sometimes having a dog means tweaking the immediate environment to suit you and the dog better.


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