# Is my heel "correct" (schutzhund PSA??)



## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I have so many questions it seems 

Ok SO- I want to compete in either schutzhund or PSA and trust me I know we have a long road ahead of us, my question is, is my heel ok? Is her position alright? I know some people have the dog look at a target or your shoulder or the side of your head, are all of these correct? Or should her head be straight up? I know she appears to be touching me but she is not-she is extremely close though (I also know how far back she sat while heeling- notice the hesitation? We had been working on down in motion for several times in a row I think she was just anticipating that) 

Any way- any one who competes, is this right? 

Anna's obedience at 5 months - YouTube

Thank you  


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

VERY nice for a 5 month old. you have to teach him to sit the correct way though. the heel looks good but once he sits, he rocks back onto his back legs and he is completely out of plane with you. he is no longer next to your leg but behind you. his back legs should move up to sit, not his front legs moving back. i had the exact same problem. i fixed it by not holding the treat so high above his head during "sit training". i held it more forward and lower so that he is moving his butt and back legs forward to sit.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I like a lot of the video, I agree with stops where he sits he falls back so work more on that. The only nit I had with your part was rewarding with the right hand now can lead to forging later, so try and do everything with your left. Otherwise it looked really good.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Looks great! I have a bicolor too, best color!! hehehe

Her head drops every time on your first step. I had this same problem with all three dogs I've started healing with lol. What worked for me was to be more animated and happy in my face, kind of built the dog up with some drive via my facial expression, and take that step as I'm smiling/saying the command. Trying to keep the dogs attention so the head doesn't drop.

I would slow down, and work on the perfect focus in sitting next to you. Reward for looking at you, start to slowly take that first step and keep that eye contact, trying to get rid of that head drop. You can also work on the perfect positioning next to you paired with the focus. I do a LOT of focus in the sit next to me, get that perfect, proofed under distraction, and THEN we finally take a step forward. It seems to help keep that 100% focus. I don't want the head to drop. She's only 5 months though, no biggie. Just critiquing what I can. :-D Beautiful pup!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> VERY nice for a 5 month old. you have to teach him to sit the correct way though. the heel looks good but once he sits, he rocks back onto his back legs and he is completely out of plane with you. he is no longer next to your leg but behind you. his back legs should move up to sit, not his front legs moving back. i had the exact same problem. i fixed it by not holding the treat so high above his head during "sit training". i held it more forward and lower so that he is moving his butt and back legs forward to sit.


Thank you so much I've been working on this heel every day for months and I've had SO much trouble, from crabbing/forging to biting and jumping to her being to far away, I've tried basically everything and I just needed to know that it is finally right. 

Ill work on the sit like crazy next, I wasn't sure how to fix it, ill start stationary first and see how it goes 

This is proving to be super hard haha but I guess that's why not everyone competes 


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

szariksdad said:


> I like a lot of the video, I agree with stops where he sits he falls back so work more on that. The only nit I had with your part was rewarding with the right hand now can lead to forging later, so try and do everything with your left. Otherwise it looked really good.


Got it  haha I've heard that before, sometimes I just forget -and yes def have to work on her sit I need it to be perfect!!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Looks great! I have a bicolor too, best color!! hehehe
> 
> Her head drops every time on your first step. I had this same problem with all three dogs I've started healing with lol. What worked for me was to be more animated and happy in my face, kind of built the dog up with some drive via my facial expression, and take that step as I'm smiling/saying the command. Trying to keep the dogs attention so the head doesn't drop.
> 
> I would slow down, and work on the perfect focus in sitting next to you. Reward for looking at you, start to slowly take that first step and keep that eye contact, trying to get rid of that head drop. You can also work on the perfect positioning next to you paired with the focus. I do a LOT of focus in the sit next to me, get that perfect, proofed under distraction, and THEN we finally take a step forward. It seems to help keep that 100% focus. I don't want the head to drop. She's only 5 months though, no biggie. Just critiquing what I can. :-D Beautiful pup!


Wow I didn't even notice she dropped her head! See this is exactly why I need another pair of eyes, everyone will notice different things, I need the criticism, I won't get offended. This is all new to me and need lots of guidance so I appreciate all of it 


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Liz&Anna said:


> Thank you so much I've been working on this heel every day for months and I've had SO much trouble, from crabbing/forging to biting and jumping to her being to far away, I've tried basically everything and I just needed to know that it is finally right.
> 
> Ill work on the sit like crazy next, I wasn't sure how to fix it, ill start stationary first and see how it goes
> 
> ...


The first time I started teaching heel with my first GSD it was a MESS! Remembering to keep my shoulders square, leash short, reward from left, reward at the right time, not drop treats, etc....A.Mess. LOL! Are you working with a club? Def work on the stationary sit, right next to you, dog shoulders next to your knee, no puppy sit, and 100% focus. ONLY move when you have a 100% focus, stop and re-set when the head drops. Dog needs to learn it needs to stay focused and in position the whole time. It IS hard. It looks so easy from the outside, until you take an ADD puppy and start from scratch! lol


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> The first time I started teaching heel with my first GSD it was a MESS! Remembering to keep my shoulders square, leash short, reward from left, reward at the right time, not drop treats, etc....A.Mess. LOL! Are you working with a club? Def work on the stationary sit, right next to you, dog shoulders next to your knee, no puppy sit, and 100% focus. ONLY move when you have a 100% focus, stop and re-set when the head drops. Dog needs to learn it needs to stay focused and in position the whole time. It IS hard. It looks so easy from the outside, until you take an ADD puppy and start from scratch! lol


Wellllll lol yes, I did a tacking lesson with irondog k9's in VA, I do bite work with the mid Atlantic protection group once a week and so far I have done 2 obedience lessons (privately) with arrowwood shepherds (he won't put Anna in to group until she's 6 months old) but we haven't started the heel yet were really working on her drive and focus, I'm thinking just relationship building really. 

I'm gonna work on it and ill be sure to post more videos - this kind of sloppy heel has taken me like 3 months on my own watching DVDs hahah and YouTube videos -__-


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i personally wouldnt nitpick too much about the head drop at the beginning on a 5 month pup. the pup probably isnt completely comfortable with its body yet and just wants to see where its walking before giving focus. 

with more training the dog will be more confident and trust you more and not worry that you'll walk her straight into a pole.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Liz&Anna said:


> Wellllll lol yes, I did a tacking lesson with irondog k9's in VA, I do bite work with the mid Atlantic protection group once a week and so far I have done 2 obedience lessons (privately) with arrowwood shepherds (he won't put Anna in to group until she's 6 months old) but we haven't started the heel yet were really working on her drive and focus, I'm thinking just relationship building really.
> 
> I'm gonna work on it and ill be sure to post more videos - this kind of sloppy heel has taken me like 3 months on my own watching DVDs hahah and YouTube videos -__-
> 
> ...


Oh, I hope you don't think I was saying you're heel is "a mess." I meant I was a mess at first! It looks great, especially since you are learning on your own as you're going. It's so nice to have the club and TD there for the little things like head drops, proper position, etc...However, you work with what you have. :-D It looks great, sometimes doing so much so soon can be hard and have the opposite effect. Getting that 100% focus, and only continuing forward with that focus helps the dog to learn it has to maintain the position and focus to get the reward (both tug/food and forward movement).


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> i personally wouldnt nitpick too much about the head drop at the beginning on a 5 month pup. the pup probably isnt completely comfortable with its body yet and just wants to see where its walking before giving focus.
> 
> with more training the dog will be more confident and trust you more and not worry that you'll walk her straight into a pole.


I believe in doing it right the first time, so you don't have to go back and fix it with compulsion later. A lot don't care, start out with luring, fix little things with compulsion, etc...I just like the perfect picture from the get go. Dog learns position and not to drop it's head right away. Then I don't have to fight a mature dog every first step, for a head dropping, possibly creating conflict in the first step. A puppy who has a foundation of 100% focus in sit before we move forward at all, won't drop that head. Anyway, just my thoughts. There are many ways to skin a cat.

Edit: I should add, the only reason I noticed is because I've had to "fix" it on one dog later on. It isn't necessarily because of not trusting the handler, it just becomes a habit to drop the head. Habits have to be broken somehow, in my case and with a couple others, it doesn't just "go away." It's incredible how quickly a dog creates a little habit like that. My first GSD looked at the ground every time I rewarded it because I dropped food TWICE and let him get it. So he just got into the habit of checking for food every.single.time I rewarded. It only took one session to create the problem, and a few to break it (by blocking/popping with the leash). I should have never created the habit, so I didn't have to correct for it later.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> I believe in doing it right the first time





DaniFani said:


> It looks great, sometimes doing so much so soon can be hard and have the opposite effect. Getting that 100% focus, and only continuing forward with that focus helps the dog to learn it has to maintain the position and focus to get the reward (both tug/food and forward movement).




I'm with Dani on this one. I would correct the head drop now so I don't have to fix it later. I personally hate the "I'll fix it later" mind set. Why create an issue if you don't have to? 

I also agree with doing too much. I would personally slow down. The puppy looks a little flat to me. The last release you(OP) did when you jumped back and rewarded was great. Did you see your puppy get excited? Keep your sessions short and full of energy on your part and you will get the puppy driving you more.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

yeah there are definitely more ways than one to get competition heeling. it wasnt a "i'll fix it later" mindset. i just broke it down into parts for my dog. i started out just wanting him to heel next to me during walks. so i taught him the mechanics and positions first. i wanted him to be aware of my left leg more than anything. when i wanted to teach the focused heeling i just did it with a ball and it was a really easy. i'm sure the head drop thing could be harder to fix with treats?

i dont have any formal training so my methods are a little bit unorthodox but i THINK it works? i just held the ball near my arm pit and then asked for a heel. my dog already knows all the mechanics of it so when he gets into position and looks at the ball i immediately reward. he has to jump a little for the ball and the reward is always above him so he's always looking up. then when i can get him looking at the ball i take one step forward and then immediately reward. we did this until he was staring at the ball while we were going at different heeling speeds and turns. next while we were heeling i would take the ball and hide it behind my back for 2 seconds and then bring it back to my arm pit before rewarding. i then added more time that i hid the ball. i ALWAYS brought the ball back to my arm pit before rewarding though. thats where the dog anticipates his reward so he is constantly staring at that spot even if there is no ball there. he stares because he knows eventually that is where the reward will be. my dog has intense ball drive so it looks really good. it looks like he is intensely staring at my face and has a lot of oomph in his step (not because he likes heeling but he is excited for the ball). not sure if this would work with less ball driven dogs though.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

bommer11, please don't think I was picking on you. My remark actually had more to do with a club I was trying to help a while back. They were rewarding crappy bites I suggested they fix the bite before letting the dog win and the response was "I'll fix the grip later", instead of take the two seconds it takes to correct it now before it becomes a habit for the dog. Ever since then it has become a pet peeve of mine. I'm not saying I do it all perfectly either. i just try and avoid creating an issue I'm going to have to "fix" later.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> yeah there are definitely more ways than one to get competition heeling. it wasnt a "i'll fix it later" mindset. i just broke it down into parts for my dog. i started out just wanting him to heel next to me during walks. so i taught him the mechanics and positions first. i wanted him to be aware of my left leg more than anything. when i wanted to teach the focused heeling i just did it with a ball and it was a really easy. i'm sure the head drop thing could be harder to fix with treats?
> 
> *i dont have any formal training so my methods are a little bit unorthodox but i THINK it works? i just held the ball near my arm pit and then asked for a heel. my dog already knows all the mechanics of it so when he gets into position and looks at the ball i immediately reward. he has to jump a little for the ball and the reward is always above him so he's always looking up. then when i can get him looking at the ball i take one step forward and then immediately reward. we did this until he was staring at the ball while we were going at different heeling speeds and turns. next while we were heeling i would take the ball and hide it behind my back for 2 seconds and then bring it back to my arm pit before rewarding. i then added more time that i hid the ball. i ALWAYS brought the ball back to my arm pit before rewarding though. thats where the dog anticipates his reward so he is constantly staring at that spot even if there is no ball there. he stares because he knows eventually that is where the reward will be. my dog has intense ball drive so it looks really good. it looks like he is intensely staring at my face and has a lot of oomph in his step (not because he likes heeling but he is excited for the ball). not sure if this would work with less ball driven dogs though*.


I don't personally like this method (it's luring and then working the lure out). It's great if it works for you, but I don't want the dog staring at anything but me. I want him to work with and for me. If you get that great healing under distraction and it looks great on the field, etc...That's great. It's just not how I would like to work through the heal. My dog gets the reward (treat/ball/whatever) for looking at *me*. I want him to push ME for obedience, not the ball. I've also noticed luring in healing can take a LONG time to work the lure out. I know a lot do it, I just don't like it very much. I see a lot of crabbing and forging when luring was the main method. Like I said before, I'd rather have a great picture from the get go, even if it's a smaller step, shorter session, path.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> yeah there are definitely more ways than one to get competition heeling. it wasnt a "i'll fix it later" mindset. i just broke it down into parts for my dog. i started out just wanting him to heel next to me during walks. so i taught him the mechanics and positions first. i wanted him to be aware of my left leg more than anything. when i wanted to teach the focused heeling i just did it with a ball and it was a really easy. *i'm sure the head drop thing could be harder to fix with treats?*
> 
> i dont have any formal training so my methods are a little bit unorthodox but i THINK it works? i just held the ball near my arm pit and then asked for a heel. my dog already knows all the mechanics of it so when he gets into position and looks at the ball i immediately reward. he has to jump a little for the ball and the reward is always above him so he's always looking up. then when i can get him looking at the ball i take one step forward and then immediately reward. we did this until he was staring at the ball while we were going at different heeling speeds and turns. next while we were heeling i would take the ball and hide it behind my back for 2 seconds and then bring it back to my arm pit before rewarding. i then added more time that i hid the ball. i ALWAYS brought the ball back to my arm pit before rewarding though. thats where the dog anticipates his reward so he is constantly staring at that spot even if there is no ball there. he stares because he knows eventually that is where the reward will be. my dog has intense ball drive so it looks really good. it looks like he is intensely staring at my face and has a lot of oomph in his step (not because he likes heeling but he is excited for the ball). not sure if this would work with less ball driven dogs though.


The dog wants to just naturally drop it's head, it's a natural habit. I don't believe it has anything to do with treats or tug or ball. Your way is a lure, treat/tug/ball. A lot hold a treat in front of the dog and have the dog follow the treat. Remove the treat, lose the dog. I want the dog to equate focus on me = reward. Not just following the reward. Focus on me is the ultimate goal, so that's what I teach right away. Not focus on ball, then focus on me without the ball. I just skip the focus on ball. It's amazing how fast a dog realizes "foos" means look at me. Just catch his eyes looking at you, say command, reward. It's never taken more than one session for a dog to understand that. THen the reward only comes for focus and sitting next to me. Etc...when I can get all that, under distraction, then we move forward. If any of that makes sense lol.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> I don't personally like this method (it's luring and then working the lure out). It's great if it works for you, but I don't want the dog staring at anything but me. I want him to work with and for me. If you get that great healing under distraction and it looks great on the field, etc...That's great. It's just not how I would like to work through the heal. My dog gets the reward (treat/ball/whatever) for looking at *me*. I want him to push ME for obedience, not the ball. I've also noticed luring in healing can take a LONG time to work the lure out. I know a lot do it, I just don't like it very much. I see a lot of crabbing and forging when luring was the main method. Like I said before, I'd rather have a great picture from the get go, even if it's a smaller step, shorter session, path.


what is the difference between a dog looking at your face and your arm pit during a heel? the dog is just focused on a different part of the body? i could just as easily hold the ball right in front of my face to get him to focus on my face. the dog isnt staring at your face because its pretty (your face is probably pretty). its staring because it wants the reward. isnt that the same thing as staring at my arm pit?

edit- again different methods to get to the same result. its just personal preference really.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> what is the difference between a dog looking at your face and your arm pit during a heel? the dog is just focused on a different part of the body? i could just as easily hold the ball right in front of my face to get him to focus on my face. the dog isnt staring at your face because its pretty (your face is probably pretty). its staring because it wants the reward. isnt that the same thing as staring at my arm pit?
> 
> edit- again different methods to get to the same result. its just personal preference really.


Oh, I don't think it's wrong or anything. I was just trying to explain (obviously poorly lol) why I personally don't lure for the heal. I don't like the "removing the lure" step when training with a lure. It works, a lot do it. I just don't want to go through the time of removing the lure. I also want the dog to understand why/what he's doing, if that makes sense. I want him to "solve the puzzle" to get the reward. Not just follow it until it drops. Then learn he needs to follow where the reward was. I taught him to heal with the reward and now I have to reteach the 
heal without the reward in his face. Sorry, I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. Your way is working for you, that's great! I like reading why/how others do things.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Ok. the dog knows its basic commands. I would work in getting the dog more excited and into a higher state of drive during your obedience. Make it more fun for the dog. Get the dog amped to be working with you. A ball or tug helps but is not really necessary. Just really be animated and play with the dog going into the obedience session. Keep the sessions as sort as necessary to keep the dog amped and then quit the session when the dog is having the most fun. The next time you start to train, she will remember how much fun she had last time and become more excited to work wit you. As the dog matures you can increase the length of the session. To compete in IPO your dog will need to have some POP to it in obedience.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I've heard it can be extremely hard to work the lure out also. I do go back and forth between food and tugs, when we use the tugs she is VERY INTENSE - she wants it- she is extremely careful and her eyes don't leave me. I didn't use it much yesterday because she's dropping teeth like crazy and I'm trying to be careful. 

Does it matter what point on your body your dog looks at? I also herd certain points have advantages and disadvantages. I'm just so happy he's finally looking at me while we walk that I don't care where she is looking (I do believe she looks directly at my face though) 

ill work on her being more excited though, and I really need to figure out this sit thing. (If anyone has tips?)

My idea is to have her out her 2 front feet on a target (maybe a book) and watch her sit (stationary of course) ill record it so I can see exactly what is happening and try to go from there hahah because I still don't understand it really -_-

OH and no I didn't think you called my heel a mess, I called it a mess! It's been really hard 


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I like working on sits with a pedestal, too. Front feet are fixed, so they can't drop back for a sit. I do this with Patton now to prevent it. 

Frag had the same issue as a pup with rocking back. I retrained sit with a ball lure in front of his face. He came up to and only got it once he sat where it was, not leaving it to rock back. It seemed to help a lot. 

She looks good, keep up the good work!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I like working on sits with a pedestal, too. Front feet are fixed, so they can't drop back for a sit. I do this with Patton now to prevent it.
> 
> Frag had the same issue as a pup with rocking back. I retrained sit with a ball lure in front of his face. He came up to and only got it once he sat where it was, not leaving it to rock back. It seemed to help a lot.
> 
> She looks good, keep up the good work!


Thank you! Ill try that also. I don't want her incorrect sit to keep happening. I know the longer she does it the harder it's going to be to stop.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think you have a great start! I haven't thoroughly read all the responses so hopefully I'm not being redundant.

I had to go back and look at what I was doing with Pan at 5 months.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGRBkdRJJZM

I was working on the heel *position*, not so much on movement. I agree with Dani that I would address the head drop now. I think if you make the positions more exciting and build more drive (food or toys, doesn't matter), you will get the focus and animation you want when you start moving. In Pan's video, I'm making the front and basic/heel positions awesome places to be. He's not getting corrections, just rewards. I'm doing a few things to try to "trick" him to look away from my face, and then rewarding him for keeping focus or bringing the focus back. Once I start moving around, I'm trying to get him to understand finding the position, backing up in position, etc. I'm training him to look at me, not at food or my armpit or a ball on my shoulder or armpit. 

I will say that doing this training early on made it SUPER easy to start "real" heeling. Once Pan was about 10 months, I started doing longer heeling and he could just do it forever. He already understood the position and the desire to be there and focus on me. Getting him from just sitting in heel looking at me to a BH pattern didn't take much effort at all. This one shows Pan heeling when he's 12 months old. It's not really something we built up to, I did the position/focus exercises in the first video until he was 10 months, and then maybe once a week or so we'd go out and do some heeling like in the video. I'm not someone that trains/requires an absolutely precise competition heel, I just like to see that the dog is happy, shows some drive, and understands the position. I don't have any food on me, I'm not luring with a ball, we're just heeling. Watching myself now I would take longer/faster strides to get a better picture from Pan (more open movement) and possibly give a quick correction with the prong for the head drops (see we had to deal with the same thing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh9qcp9FKVk

This is Pan now, preparing for SchH nationals with his new handler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhzGqPuWtzc


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I think you have a great start! I haven't thoroughly read all the responses so hopefully I'm not being redundant.
> 
> I had to go back and look at what I was doing with Pan at 5 months.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGRBkdRJJZM
> ...


Wow thank you so much for the videos!! That's beautiful! He does look extremely happy and has a great little bounce. When you were using the target for turning did you teach a place command? Or just rewarded him when he kept his paws on it? How long did it take for you to consistently keep him on that mark? Just curious

Thank you 




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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I hate using lures BUT I actually do use food lures to lure the dog's front feet on the perch. I simply reward when the feet are on the perch. I don't have a command, but typically once they figure it out, any time the perch is out they run over and stand on it.

I think Alexis with Karma has some really nice videos of her progress using a perch. I didn't use it with Nikon and honestly probably won't do much with it with my current puppy.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Of the comments, I think RobK had it right - animation, enthusiasm are lacking.

-- from the op "I've been working on this heel every day for months and I've had SO much trouble, from crabbing/forging to biting and jumping to her being to far away, I've tried basically everything "

Give it a rest! Take a break for a few days. Quit working "so hard" and have fun. (Back off from "everything" try one thing for a while and keep it FUN.) I found the video hard to watch. Lack of animation in handler and dog. Get some enthusiasm in there for the dog. It seems to me like you are supressing drive. I'd rather have some jumping, some forging than dullness.

DVG, fortunately, now requires that the dog show enjoyment. This is supposed to be fun for you and the dog.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Liz&Anna said:


> How long did it take for you to consistently keep him on that mark? Just curious


I can keep my puppy on the pedestal pretty well and he's just 13 weeks- I've had him for 3.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

middleofnowhere said:


> Of the comments, I think RobK had it right - animation, enthusiasm are lacking.
> 
> -- from the op "I've been working on this heel every day for months and I've had SO much trouble, from crabbing/forging to biting and jumping to her being to far away, I've tried basically everything "
> 
> ...


If she wasn't having fun she wouldn't be working- she is off leash and at no point do I force any behavior from her- thank you 


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Liz&Anna said:


> If she wasn't having fun she wouldn't be working- she is off leash and at no point do I force any behavior from her- thank you
> 
> 
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I mean... There are a lot of situations where a dog will comply, but it doesn't mean they're happy or engaged. I can think of dozens of times I've been working with a dog who was working/complying, but not happy at all. Just have to change techniques a little. 

She is just lacking a little enthusiasm... Nothing unfixable, and it will make training a whole lot easier!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I mean... There are a lot of situations where a dog will comply, but it doesn't mean they're happy or engaged. I can make my border collie do a lot off leash but he's not happy whatsoever. He complies because he's trained to.
> 
> She is just lacking a little enthusiasm... Nothing unfixable, and it will make training a whole lot easier!


Yes but she's not trained yet, no where does she lose interest or walk away, or shy away or ignore me or use calming signals- she's a German shepherd if she didn't want to do it she wouldn't and I don't mean this towards you or in a mean way- but how many dog owners or people working puppies had you seen where the dog just walks away in interested in what's going on- to go chase it's tail or find something fun to do. I'm jut saying if she didn't enjoy t she wouldn't be engaging with me and if my video is so "hard to watch" simply turn it off - again not towards you. 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Liz&Anna said:


> If she wasn't having fun she wouldn't be working- she is off leash and at no point do I force any behavior from her- thank you
> 
> 
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I agree with RobK. 

The heeling looks nice. Don't get me wrong. It's correct, aside from the sit and the head drop. So you have done a nice job. 

But there is no animation. No "pushing". No oomph. It's a bit intangible, until you see it. Your girl is well trained, but give the impression of "going through the motions" without a strong desire to push you for work. 

She is still very young. I would be doing just a few steps then reward. Get her really excited for the game of heeling. Get her pushing into your hand for the treat. At this age it should be a fun game. 

You are asking a lot of her for her age. Drop in motion, finishes, all things that should be added after the desire is there. 

To fix the head drop, I would reward after one step with a toy that falls from my underarm. It will keep her head up and she gets a reward. For the down in motion, give her the command and drop treats in between her legs instantaneously, or a toy. So the act us rewarded immediately. 

But I would not be working on either until her animation improves. The main goal at this age us to get desire to work. And that means making it a lot more fun and a lot less work. 

No one said you were forcing anything, and she is a very lovely girl. You are doing a nice job with her. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Doing the circles and turns to get her engaged is great. I agree with adding in rewards to get her to push for more. Ask for ups if you see her starting to flatten out. 
Not all dogs are uber focused on their handlers face...it isn't natural to do so. As long as you have some power and enthusiasm showing I don't see the point for total focus on the handlers face. My dog is aware of his surroundings and he checks in with me, but naturally won't tunnel vision on just me. I won't bang on him for it either.
But I also don't want him doing factory work, because that is never fun.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Liz&Anna said:


> Yes but she's not trained yet, no where does she lose interest or walk away, or shy away or ignore me or use calming signals- she's a German shepherd if she didn't want to do it she wouldn't and I don't mean this towards you or in a mean way- but how many dog owners or people working puppies had you seen where the dog just walks away in interested in what's going on- to go chase it's tail or find something fun to do. I'm jut saying if she didn't enjoy t she wouldn't be engaging with me and if my video is so "hard to watch" simply turn it off - again not towards you.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Didn't say she lost interest, just that she's complying without any enthusiasm. Again, not a hard fix. My German shepherd will work without enjoying it becUse he is trying to please me. It's up to me to recognize the signs that he is not enthusiastic and stop training or change it up, reward more, etc. 

The more dogs you work with the more you will notice it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I like working on sits with a pedestal, too. Front feet are fixed, so they can't drop back for a sit. !


That's how I'm doing it with Seger too. He'll bring his front feet forward to touch the pan


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

the critique seems harsh and nit picky but you did ask for schutzhund heeling and not just pet obedience. 

to me enthusiasm correlates with how much drive the dog has. the pup is only 5 months and is still maturing. i know my dog definitely didnt have as much oomph at 5 months then he does now at 9. 

imo a 5 month pup isnt mentally ready to be doing a perfect heel with down in motions, etc. at that age the dog should be learning the position and being mindful of your left leg and moving in unison with it. i do agree that training too much or too long and the dog will just start going through the motions.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

In order to have her even closer and slightly more forward try to hold her treat in your right hand, see how she responds. Getting used to this position will come with number of repetitions, then swap from right hand to left in a way she doesn't notice it. Then, it is you who is prancing like a fairy, so, your dog repeats your gracious walk, but she sits too slowly as well. Encourage her to sit abruptly by moving faster and slightly enhanced commanding tone. Don't worry if she is confused and doing sloppy, she will polish it. Change your commanding tone from sharp to soft with changing the speeds first, then without any voice commands. How well she walks with a ball? Sometimes the use of a toy (associated with a run) helps gaining the speed.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I can't explain it to well, I posted a while ago about Anna's focus while we heel asking if it was normal for her to be so serious, she doesn't bounce at all- she stares at me super intense with her mouth closed tightly and her eyes HUGE- she looks at me the way a dog looks at a squirrel right before it takes off to chase it- or the same expression a dog will have when you pull out a tug. How can I go for, serious to bouncy? Why do you think she looks so serious? Yes I was calm in the video and kind of quiet but I do regularly talk to her happily and run away with her and try tricks to keep her thinking and excited. 









This is what I see when we heel- huge eyes- tightly closed mouth, she seems ready to launch up for a toy but I have no lure at all in this pic, 












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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sending you a PM with videos of what I'm doing with Seger


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I posted a heeling vid once and a famous ipo handler/breeder ripped it apart. He said one thing that truly stuck with me. The dog must only recieve success when he is correct. Rewarding poor focus and position at this age can cause issues down the road. My advice is slow down work one thing at a time. Make each session impactful and fun. 
Pull the dog out of the crate rev her up with the ball or tug. Say foos she gets into Correct position with good focus. Mark then reward. Play play play. Say foose she does it properly good strong focus mark then reward.
Do it only 3-4 times correct any position or focus issues with luring or whatever you want. Just never reward for even the smallest mistake. 

Sessions are 5 mins or less. Dont even worry about walking. Just focus and positioning. 

The dog only gets success for being correct. 

If using food again only use high value stuff or wait till she is hungry. Keep sessions short and just do one thing.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I posted a heeling vid once and a famous ipo handler/breeder ripped it apart. He said one thing that truly stuck with me. The dog must only recieve success when he is correct. Rewarding poor focus and position at this age can cause issues down the road. My advice is slow down work one thing at a time. Make each session impactful and fun.
> Pull the dog out of the crate rev her up with the ball or tug. Say foos she gets into Correct position with good focus. Mark then reward. Play play play. Say foose she does it properly good strong focus mark then reward.
> Do it only 3-4 times correct any position or focus issues with luring or whatever you want. Just never reward for even the smallest mistake.
> 
> ...


I never thought of trying it when she comes out of her crate- she shoots out of that think like a rocket!!! I can maybe harness that! Very good idea  thank you 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would really advise letting her shoot out of the crate. Order Crate Games (only about $30). It teaches them to not do that and teaches them self control.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I would really advise letting her shoot out of the crate. Order Crate Games (only about $30). It teaches them to not do that and teaches them self control.


I LOVE CRATE GAMES. 

That is all.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I also lock the dog back in the crate afterwards. Let things percolate a bit so it sticks more. Especially for a dog flatter in obedience I find longer periods of crating interspersed with short sessions brings the drive up nicely.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I would really advise letting her shoot out of the crate. Order Crate Games (only about $30). It teaches them to not do that and teaches them self control.


Where did you get it? Ill look in to it, she is extremely excited when I let her out. I'm not complaining I normally co platelet ignore her when she's acting like a beast I simply walk away. But if i can harness her excitement that would be fantastic! I'm still waiting about 2 weeks before I give her her tugs back her k9's are hardly hanging on, hopefully they fall out soon. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think I bought it from Dogwise. They catch on quickly!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Ok guys!! We might have figured it out 

Let me know what you think 

http://youtu.be/iqL9JwEdlFM


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Very nice. She looks so much more engaged and happy!!! Great timing on your part as well!!!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Very nice. She looks so much more engaged and happy!!! Great timing on your part as well!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yay!! Thank you  that's good news !!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I liked how you threw the toy and drug her forward on her bark. You did however pull her back twice. Never pull the puppy back, always keep it moving forward towards the toy. Nice job


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I liked how you threw the toy and drug her forward on her bark. You did however pull her back twice. Never pull the puppy back, always keep it moving forward towards the toy. Nice job


Can you expand on this? With my pup at the end of a session they've had me pull him away from the helper, almost dragging him off the field then letting him go for a bite...this may be unrelated..I didn't watch the video, but still curious..

Sorry to hijack the thread


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gaia_bear said:


> Can you expand on this? With my pup at the end of a session they've had me pull him away from the helper, almost dragging him off the field then letting him go for a bite...this may be unrelated..I didn't watch the video, but still curious..
> 
> Sorry to hijack the thread



That's a different scenario. Have you seen the dogs that lunge out to the end of the leash then bounce back and forth (slack-no slack)? That's what pulling the dog back can cause. It's telling the dog not to stay at the end of the leash. 

In your case (I'm assuming) it's still a constant pressure on the leash and a slow drag back. The dog is trying for everything it's worth to get back to the decoy. In the video, the dog lunges forward then gets pulled back, dog lunges forward then gets pulled back. It's a mixed signal to the dog. Do you want the dog to be forward or back?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

she looks much more motivated to the toy-enjoyed watching it -you could hold the collar -kick the toy away


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

That looks so much nicer, great job!


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> That's a different scenario. Have you seen the dogs that lunge out to the end of the leash then bounce back and forth (slack-no slack)? That's what pulling the dog back can cause. It's telling the dog not to stay at the end of the leash.
> 
> In your case (I'm assuming) it's still a constant pressure on the leash and a slow drag back. The dog is trying for everything it's worth to get back to the decoy. In the video, the dog lunges forward then gets pulled back, dog lunges forward then gets pulled back. It's a mixed signal to the dog. Do you want the dog to be forward or back?


I watched the video which I should have done first so completely different situation, but yes your assumption is correct.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> I liked how you threw the toy and drug her forward on her bark. You did however pull her back twice. Never pull the puppy back, always keep it moving forward towards the toy. Nice job


Ohh ok got it (I didn't know) thank you, I need to know things that will confuse the dog- I should have kicked it as she got closer  understood 




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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> That looks so much nicer, great job!


 thank you 


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mycobraracr*
> _I liked how you threw the toy and drug her forward on her bark. You did however pull her back twice. Never pull the puppy back, always keep it moving forward towards the toy. Nice job
> 
> ...


 Someone needs to post a video of it being done correctly.. That way she can see how it's exactly supposed to be done...

From my understanding, tossing/kicking the toy away from the dog is to build drive and or frustration or you can teach barking.. And usually the dog is on a leash with a prong and or a harness..

Then you'd alternate on letting the dog get the toy or you stealing it away.. And in time you can ask for obedience before sending the dog..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Looks like a good improvement! The dog is looking more motivated and animated! My suggestion would be do some left circles. The right circles allow the dog to be out of position or a little wide.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Looks like a good improvement! The dog is looking more motivated and animated! My suggestion would be do some left circles. The right circles allow the dog to be out of position or a little wide.


I'm working on the rear end awareness thing still (so she is learning to keep her front paws on a target and rotate her rear only, I'm also working on a backwards heel) so I'm not sure we're quite ready for left turns yet 


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

G-burg said:


> Someone needs to post a video of it being done correctly.. That way she can see how it's exactly supposed to be done...
> 
> From my understanding, tossing/kicking the toy away from the dog is to build drive and or frustration or you can teach barking.. And usually the dog is on a leash with a prong and or a harness..
> 
> Then you'd alternate on letting the dog get the toy or you stealing it away.. And in time you can ask for obedience before sending the dog..


I was holding her back from the you to build her drive and make her want it more. In hopes to make her heel more excited. 


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Nice job with the heel, i would say slow it down a bit to make what you are doing more clear to the pup. Also for backend awareness one of the best ways to work on that is get the pup to develop the habit of when sitting beside you it is correct position only. So when if you move even your feet a little to the right it has to move its but around to still be beside you. Nice reward be careful some dogs can develop bad habits if you let them bark for the tug in ob. Okay in protection for them to bark for the tug.


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