# I need help!!!



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

My 7 month German Shepard (Finn) is attacking my 3 year old Labrador Mix while on walks.

This problem has been happening since the day he was allowed to go out on walks . He would get so excited and frustrated while on leash he would redirect all this energy toward my adult dog. 

I've gone to the only dog "behaviourist" purely positive and the have been far from helpful . They are not interested in the problem and insited he goes into puppy day care / puppy classes. So he went for months. Each time I talked to a different trainer they all told me they weren't qualified to deal with this issue. The owner needed to contact me , not spoken to this person (still waiting after about 4 months). So all I would get is not qualified/don't worry your puppy is our best puppy in the class , you've doing a great job. Dispute telling them my puppy wanted to sometimes kill my adult dog!!!

As far as I'm concerned this isn't helpful/hasn't been helpful at all.

The thing is Finn is impeccably behaved on his own. He's calm , confident , relaxed , good with people / other dogs. I'm often stopped in the street and completed how well trained Finn is and how perfect he is. It's like jekyll and hide!!!! 

As a result and the only advice I've been given to walk them separately and if we do walk them together and if Finn looses his mind and is trying to kill my older dog , best thing to do is feed him some chicken!!!

I quickly lost faith in this trainer. 

What I have been doing is walking them separately. I've spent a lot of time on Finn and got him really good on his own but this really hasn't solved anything.

I do one practice walk together every day with my girlfriend as a helper. It's usually pretty uneventful but it has to be so carefully managed. I usually use a ball to redirect his energy and he's fine.

This is a massive crutch. He's like a ticking time bomb while our with my other dog . Anything could set him off .

In the house they are great together. 

I'm writing this because I know my efforts are not really working . I stupidly tried to work on the problem alone today .
They are in the house really chilled out together all day. So I thought take them outside on the front garden and into the street outside my house .

Practicing obedience, sits, heel, together. All going fine, out if nowhere Finn jumps up and play bites my older dog. My older dog jumps back and tries to get away from him (she's starting to fear him). This triggers Finn and now he goes into attack mode.

Manage to get both dogs in the house . Finn still going crazy, charges at older dog to attack , I have to block him with my knee , grab him, lost my temper and pinned him down to stop him attacking. 

Just like that , a switch turned off and he instantly calmed dog. Dogs instantly chilled.

The thing is I never do things like this. I was just trying to protect my other dog from attack. 

For it to get to this point it's frightening!!! I really need advise from someone experienced .


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Can your trainer walk these dogs together? Can they control your pup?

Where are you located?

A) don't walk the dogs together. Don't work on this on your own. Management is key here. Do not allow him to practice this behavior. Period.

B) you need a trainer that can control your dog. One that can work him themselves and then explain to you what's going on. No prong. No e-collar for this training. That's important.

C) this dog needs exercise before training. Tongue hanging out, ready for a break, then work on this. If you have a training appointment scheduled, take an hour before and go out and wear him out. 2 ball, flirt pole, off leash running, tug, whatever. Don't take him out all excited and then work on being calm.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

All the trainers tell me they're not quilfied to deal with this. I'm always directed to speak to the owner / head trainer, she's told me she will help a few times (just as you suggested) but nothing comes of it.

As I understand she's the only one that will attempt to deal with it and to be honest she's super busy. So getting time with her is near impossible.

He's got his first class tonight after lockdown where I can actually be there (although they keep on canceling) so I'll try again to speak to them and suggest my other dog comming.

As for the trainer being able to manage him, yes. As long as there are two people and Finn is carefully managed and he has your full attention , you're able to walk just fine. 

Also if he's carrying a ball/toy in his mouth while walking the problem completely disappears. This is a crutch.

I've tried as you've suggested, have him walk when he's exusted and it made little difference to be honest. 

Also my concern with that is as he's so young I need to be very careful about running ball games , flirt poles e.t.c. So as a result he doesn't do high impact stuff, just usually walks/training sessions where I'm mindful of protecting is developing body. It's possible it could be adding to the situation but protecting is developing body is also a factor that needs to be considered.


I have a LOT of time to address the issue.So I can really dedicate myself to this.

My game plan so far is to separate walks (individual training walks) , if I can't get the trainer to help , I'll keep up with taking the two out together when I have my girlfriend with me , it is manageable and we get about 95% incedent free walks (not fun relaxing walks as we are always carefully managing but it is what it is ).

I think I need to really step it up around the house. Really get advanced obedience and really control everything. Which won't be that hard as he hangs on my every word. It's just when he loses his mind he becomes the devil.

I don't use e collars or prongs . Just wondering why are you against them in this situation ? 

Although I will correct I'm never harsh . I'm a pretty gentle owner but do have a lot of rules.

I'm not sure how I feel about this but I do believe Finn does think their is no real consiquence for his actions/losing his mind .

Maybe a slight fear of consequence for disobeying would help him. I'm not talking about hitting or anything like there, just making it very clear to him when he messes up.

As a developing puppy i haven't wanted to give him lots corrections as I want to build him up. Mabye it's time?

I really need to research it and seek out really good trainer's regarding this. I've never had to do this with previous dogs .

But I think Finn really needs structure and be given clarify on what's acceptable and unacceptable.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I haven't read your entire posts but if your pup is well behaved when he is not around your other dog, then you need to begin to slowly generalize his training around your other dog in baby steps. Start at a minimum and work your way up. He needs to be taught obedience in the presence of your other dog. It is a process. You should look up Stonnie Dennis videos. They would greatly benefit you. One of his strong points is working dogs under the distraction of other dogs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> I'm not sure how I feel about this but I do believe Finn does think their is no real consequence for his actions/losing his mind .


IT sounds like he is putting both YOU and the other dog at risk of serious injury when he does this, so why SHOULDN' there be consequences?? You want to wait until you or the other dog gets seriously bitten??

The all-positive mindset REALLY makes me shake my head sometimes! If this were my dog, he'd be left with NO doubt in his mind whatsoever that he messed up BIG TIME! 

There HAVE to be consequences sometimes. Look at it this way: someone's kid is about to hit your kid over the head with a stick. You don't just offer them some candy! You take the stick away, and tell them off!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Have you tried walking them together but with a friend handling the older dog? Walk them 20 feet apart in the same direction, walk them 20 feet apart passing each other in the opposite direction. Walk them past each other 20 feet apart while the other sits. Make sure younger dog is focused on you through all this, anticipate the bad reactions and correct PRIOR. Don't be tense throughout this; relax, fun, praise.

It sounds like the issue is only when walking together? Incremental steps then.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> IT sounds like he is putting both YOU and the other dog at risk of serious injury when he does this, so why SHOULDN' there be consequences?? You want to wait until you or the other dog gets seriously bitten??
> 
> The all-positive mindset REALLY makes me shake my head sometimes! If this were my dog, he'd be left with NO doubt in his mind whatsoever that he messed up BIG TIME!
> 
> There HAVE to be consequences sometimes. Look at it this way: someone's kid is about to hit your kid over the head with a stick. You don't just offer them some candy! You take the stick away, and tell them off!


100 likes...


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> IT sounds like he is putting both YOU and the other dog at risk of serious injury when he does this, so why SHOULDN' there be consequences?? You want to wait until you or the other dog gets seriously bitten??
> 
> The all-positive mindset REALLY makes me shake my head sometimes! If this were my dog, he'd be left with NO doubt in his mind whatsoever that he messed up BIG TIME!
> 
> There HAVE to be consequences sometimes. Look at it this way: someone's kid is about to hit your kid over the head with a stick. You don't just offer them some candy! You take the stick away, and tell them off!



I understand what you're saying and I agree with you. 

My only issue so far regarding corrections is his age.

When he was really young I wanted to build him up with positivity. It was about building a bond and making sure he didn't become a fearful dog.

So he's had little corrections but nothing to stop him in his tracks and think, oh crap, I've messed up big time. 

It's very possible I've been too gentle with him and should have stepped up a while ago.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

You are humanizing your dog. A mother dog corrects her puppies by nipping them or pinning them down with her paw. They do not hate her for it.

I once adopted a dog-aggressive rescue, a full grown female GSD. The rescue said she was all right with some dogs, and got along fine with a male GSD she was housed with.

The first time she was introduced to my male GSD, she latched onto his hind leg and would not let go. Both I and the person helping me got bitten before we were able to separate the two dogs.

The next time she went after another dog, she got corrected so hard she yelped... Yes, I was harsh with her. But SHE DIDN'T TRY IT AGAIN!

And there were no vet bills or trips to the hospital.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> You are humanizing your dog. A mother dog corrects her puppies by nipping them or pinning them down with her paw. They do not hate her for it.


I don't feel like I'm humanizing, but it's possible I've not delbt with the issue with the wrong approach by not being harsh enough.

Thing is these are my first two dogs. So I don't have mountains of experience. It's hard to find the correct approach while you're litrally bombarded with conflicting information.

It's why I'm here. From my local dog behaviourist is all purely positive, all sites purely positive, even on forums you mention the word correction and you're labeled a dog abuser.

I kinda want to see through all the REMOVED BY MODERATOR and find out what really is best for my dog.

NO SWEARING PLEASE


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My rule of thumb is - if the dog doesn't learn from the correction, it wasn't harsh enough. Gear the correction to the dog, and the severity of the offence. Save your maximum correction for something that's potentially life-threatening. The dog I was speaking about above could have potentially killed another dog, if she had latched onto another dog's throat, and refused to let go - that's why I was so harsh.

For lesser offences, I'd start with a verbal correction (if the dog understands what it's done wrong - e.g. - dog has been trained to sit, and refuses to.) If that doesn't work, a gentle leash correction, or cueing the behaviour by touching the dog, or luring with a treat. If that didn't work, (for a refusal to sit) I'd push on the dog's rear, while holding a treat above its nose, to encourage a sit. Then, of course, treat and praise for doing it.

It's interesting how the all-positive people have absolutely NO CLUE how to deal with dog aggression! Their only solution seems to be to put the animal to sleep if all-positive methods fail! 

As for corrections ruining dogs, there are few animals quite as forgiving as the dog. I removed a dog from an abusive situation, and for the first week or so after I brought him home, he would 'light up' and pull towards the road every time a pickup truck resembling the one his former owner drove went past... 😢 

Praise and rewards should definitely outnumber corrections. Train your dog that way, and he will do just fine! And rewards do not have to be food - a play session with a ball or tug is just as rewarding, and won't make the dog fat!


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> My rule of thumb is - if the dog doesn't learn from the correction, it wasn't harsh enough. Gear the correction to the dog, and the severity of the offence. Save your maximum correction for something that's potentially life-threatening. The dog I was speaking about above could have potentially killed another dog, if she had latched onto another dog's throat, and refused to let go - that's why I was so harsh.
> 
> For lesser offences, I'd start with a verbal correction (if the dog understands what it's done wrong - e.g. - dog has been trained to sit, and refuses to.) If that doesn't work, a gentle leash correction, or cueing the behaviour by touching the dog, or luring with a treat. If that didn't work, (for a refusal to sit) I'd push on the dog's rear, while holding a treat above its nose, to encourage a sit. Then, of course, treat and praise for doing it.


How would you correct in my situation?

Dogs are calmly walking together. 7 month dog suddenly jumps on back of older dog playfully and it escalates in seconds. 

He gets in such an excited state he's litrally out if his mind.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This sounds like the same kind of excitement and door frustration mine gets at the door to go outside. If I let my older dog go out first, he grabs her neck. He doesn’t hurt her but he is clearly not comfortable with the situation. It may be a form of leash frustration but it sounds like he can’t control himself, and he think the other dog is causing his frustration. I stopped the door fights by making them sit quietly and letting them go out one at a time until he learned to calm himself at the door.

I agree with Sunsilver’s method because it’s quick and it works, but I’m not sure how you can correct one dog when you are holding two leashes. if you are holding one leash and someone else has the other, does he still attack your other dog? I also like the suggestion to watch Stonnie videos. The puppies in his videos are always tired when he starts working with them.

I was having a problem with my dog but my trainer could not duplicate it. He ended up having to set up a situation where the behavior would occur and he corrected it. Then he asked me to try but my dog knew he could not get away with it when the trainder was nearby, so he didn’t repeat it there.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It is very difficult for me to say, without seeing the body language involved. I am not sure if it is truly aggression, or if he just wants to play. Has either dog been bitten hard enough to draw blood when this happens?

One of the keys to successful leash walking is being able to read the dog's body language well enough that you are able to stop something like this BEFORE it happens. A dog will focus intently on another dog, or a distraction before it lunges at it. The correction needs to happen as soon as the dog's eyes focus on the target. If you do that, a very mild correction - even a verbal correction - is often enough, as opposed to the full-scale fight you are going to have on your hands once the young dog has jumped on the older one.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> This sounds like the same kind of excitement and door frustration mine gets at the door to go outside. If I let my older dog go out first, he grabs her neck. He doesn’t hurt her but he is clearly not comfortable with the situation. It may be a form of leash frustration but it sounds like he can’t control himself, and he think the other dog is causing his frustration. I stopped the door fights by making them sit quietly and letting them go out one at a time until he learned to calm himself at the door.
> 
> I agree with Sunsilver’s method because it’s quick and it works, but I’m not sure how you can correct one dog when you are holding two leashes. if you are holding one leash and someone else has the other, does he still attack your other dog? I also like the suggestion to watch Stonnie videos. The puppies in his videos are always tired when he starts working with them.
> 
> I was having a problem with my dog but my trainer could not duplicate it. He ended up having to set up a situation where the behavior would occur and he corrected it. Then he asked me to try but my dog knew he could not get away with it when the trainder was nearby, so he didn’t repeat it there.


It will happen on leash, off leash, doesn't matter if one person is holding the leash or two people have each dog. 

The only common factor is it's outside on a walk . You can managed by distraction so it doesn't happen. 

But it's like he's a loaded waiting for the trigger to he pulled. You can feel it bubbling under the surface my


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> It is very difficult for me to say, without seeing the body language involved. I am not sure if it is truly aggression, or if he just wants to play. Has either dog been bitten hard enough to draw blood when this happens?



It's definitely not true aggression, but it's completely inappropriate. I definitely think it could easily escalate to real aggression

If on leash he will bark / scream/ lunge to get to her. If he can get to her he will slam and have to be pulled off of her.

He completely loses his mind, it's as if he will let nothing stop him. He has zero concern for his own walfare when he's in this state, honestly I think I would willingly charge into fire just to get to her.

You can snap him out of it, by redirecting his attention to a ball and a switch is flipped and he's fine again. 

Off leash same type of thing, but if he gets to her it doesn't escalate. Mabye slam into her roughly and it stops there.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Can you tell when it's about to happen? Like I said above, he should be focusing on the other dog before he jumps. When I see that, right away, I would correct him - whatever sort of correction it took to stop him.

Like David said above, he's been allowed to practice this behaviour, and it's become a habit. It HAS to be stopped, and if that takes a really strong, physical correction, I'd not hesitate to do it. But the key is to catch him BEFORE he 'loses his mind', and do the correction then.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Can you tell when it's about to happen? Like I said above, he should be focusing on the other dog before he jumps. When I see that, right away, I would correct him - whatever sort of correction it took to stop him.


It's hard to predict. I think that's the problem. It takes a second for him to suddenly decide to playfully attack her and then the switch is flipped.

He goes from calm to nutcase in a second. I think the only correction that would stop him when he's in that state would pretty much be considered dog abuse.

You're right though . It's about correcting it before it happens.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Maybe you are missing the body language, because these are your first dogs?
Yes, some dogs only give you a split-second warning, but those are rare. (My dog-aggressive female was one of those.)

What do you do when he lunges? (I take it you don't offer him a treat...  )


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Maybe you are missing the body language, because these are your first dogs?
> Yes, some dogs only give you a split-second warning, but those are rare. (My dog-aggressive female was one of those.)


It's possible you're correct. I'm always 100% focused on him but mabye I'm missing something. 

I'll really take on board what you've have said and be really vigilant and quick to correct.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This is not a single learning event, hard correction fix IMO. That may fix it for a week, maybe a month. As the dog matures and comes into drive, this is going to get serious.

You have to cap the dog. That's not something I can explain in a couple paragraphs. It's also not something you would understand or have the timing necessary to accomplish.

Where are you located?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> This is not a single learning event, hard correction fix IMO. That may fix it for a week, maybe a month. As the dog matures and comes into drive, this is going to get serious.
> 
> You have to cap the dog. That's not something I can explain in a couple paragraphs. It's also not something you would understand or have the timing necessary to accomplish.
> 
> Where are you located?


I'm in Scotland. I need to learn and I'm just looking for the right teacher.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This dog is 7 months old. He's just getting his big boy hormones.

I wouldn't use a prong or e-collar because they could amp up the dog.

Yes more than old enough to play fetch! Unless you do some challenging physical activity, he will never develop the orthopaedic strength to be an active dog. He won't know how to use his body and he will be at greater risk for injury.

If you want to try and take this on yourself, I'll link some videos that will be helpful.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Sunsilver said:


> One of the keys to successful leash walking is being able to read the dog's body language well enough that you are able to stop something like this BEFORE it happens. A dog will focus intently on another dog, or a distraction before it lunges at it. The correction needs to happen as soon as the dog's eyes focus on the target. If you do that, a very mild correction - even a verbal correction - is often enough, as opposed to the full-scale fight you are going to have on your hands once the young dog has jumped on the older one.


This x 1000.

My issue is that I was correcting too late. My thinking was that I didn’t want to correct him while he wasn’t reacting. I didn’t want him to think he was being corrected for just looking and associate all dogs with being corrected.

However, he was reacting with a hard stare and fixed gaze before he exploded. That’s when the correction needed to happen. So it’s not that I didn’t notice, I was just confused when to apply the correction.

It made a world of difference.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Thanks Dave! Loki, David has tons more experience than I do, and hopefully he can help with resources.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> This dog is 7 months old. He's just getting his big boy hormones.
> 
> I wouldn't use a prong or e-collar because they could amp up the dog.
> 
> ...


Yes please links would be great. Thank you.


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## Castine2213 (Aug 25, 2020)

Loki.777 said:


> My 7 month German Shepard (Finn) is attacking my 3 year old Labrador Mix while on walks.
> 
> This problem has been happening since the day he was allowed to go out on walks . He would get so excited and frustrated while on leash he would redirect all this energy toward my adult dog.
> 
> ...


Have you tried getting a gentle leader (face harness I call it) my GSD always put his hair up to other dogs and wanted to go after them and always pulled and my trainer told me to try the gentle leader and it had made a huge difference I have so much more control of his head and him in general. 
your dog is young so definitely not too late to correct it. But then again can correct bad behavior at any age I feel long as you have the patients. Good luck and keep us all updated. This is my thor with his gentle leader on.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So here's an example. There is so much going on here. Pressure and release on the slip lead. Reading the dog and reacting in a split second. Staying under threshold, most of the time, and interrupting the behavior. Constant variation on the slip lead depending on what's going on with the body language of the dog.

This is addressing the state of mind and the behavior.

You do this with a prong and it's going to be a mess.

Tyler is calm inside and out.

It's complicated.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

I'm going to research loads on capping dogs. Thank you for the video. 

A question. Play always instigates it . 

Should I be stopping play although, as in gentle biting, wrestling even at home. 

I've always let them play but stop it if it gets out of hand. I was thinking mabye I should stop it all together.

I honestly believe the desire to play fight and it getting out of hand is the root of the problem. 

So a no play fighting rule?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

How do you stop it?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Don't expect a dog to learn what you want him to do by only correcting what you don't want him to do. Rest assured, you may stop the bad behavior but it will only manifest itself with another behavior, most likely a bad one, because corrections don't teach a dog an acceptable replacement behavior. 

IF you do use a correction as an emergency measure, the correction must be more than the commensurate behavior you are trying to correct. Anything less is a waste of time.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> How do you stop it?


Redirect their attention, give them something else to do, send them to their place beds, loads of things they would rather be doing rather than entertaining each other.

I'm just not sure if allowing play fighting at home is helping the situation.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Don't expect a dog to learn what you want him to do by only correcting what you don't want him to do. Rest assured, you may stop the bad behavior but it will only manifest itself with another behavior, most likely a bad one, because corrections don't teach a dog an acceptable replacement behavior.
> 
> IF you do use a correction as an emergency measure, the correction must be more than the commensurate behavior you are trying to correct. Anything less is a waste of time.


Sure but It was suggested to me I wasn't correcting enough. I've been trying to shape the desired behaviour without using harsh corrections.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Sunsilver said:


> Can you tell when it's about to happen? Like I said above, he should be focusing on the other dog before he jumps. When I see that, right away, I would correct him - whatever sort of correction it took to stop him.
> 
> Like David said above, he's been allowed to practice this behaviour, and it's become a habit. It HAS to be stopped, and if that takes a really strong, physical correction, I'd not hesitate to do it. But the key is to catch him BEFORE he 'loses his mind', and do the correction then.


I totally agree. I would look into slip leads, @Loki.777 . Slip leads choke, but the correction is meant to be fast and causes no harm to the dog. The slip lead is a go-to for aggression issues imo. 

This is a dominant dog collar. It's very similar. Either will work.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Awesome video, @David Winners .


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

@Loki.777 From 7 months till 10, my shepherd would key up and attack if a stranger looked him in the eye. I didn't know how to correct this at first, but with some professional help and introduction to a slip lead correction, he went from attacking strangers to lying beside me calmly--completely under control--while strangers and dogs stood near him or walked by him.


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## CatMan900 (May 24, 2018)

I’d get a gsd experienced trainer, my dog has never attacked my cats or ppl even tho he viciously barks sometimes, so if your dog is doing that I’d firstly let your dog know it’s absolutely not acceptable


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Kathrynil said:


> @Loki.777 From 7 months till 10, my shepherd would key up and attack if a stranger looked him in the eye. I didn't know how to correct this at first, but with some professional help and introduction to a slip lead correction, he went from attacking strangers to lying beside me calmly--completely under control--while strangers and dogs stood near him or walked by him.


Thanks . I already use a slip lead amounst other things.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

I really need a game plan... Do this, this and this. 

Just something to follow until I can find a good dog that's willing to work with me in this.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Loki.777 said:


> Thanks . I already use a slip lead amounst other things.


How do you use it?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I usually approach this kind of issue indirectly. Focus on obedience. That way, you're giving the dog directions and rewarding compliance. Slowly introduce distractions while insisting on strict compliance to whatever it is you're having the dog do. Any corrections then, are for non compliance to simple, well known, obedience commands.

This way you are teaching the dog what you want/expect of them, not punishing them for misbehavior. Let them decide for themselves that focussing on the other dog, or the car, or the bicycle is not as important as remaining focused on the task at hand. With enough practice, that will resolve your problem. Good Luck!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

So much to this- odd that he's attacking a female. Something may be a bit off in temperament but you should be able to manage him appropriately and stop this especially at 7 months old. 

I agree with the capping. Personally, this dog would also have a real "come to Jesus" moment the second he considered going after my other dog. It wouldn't be dog abuse, but it would be at level with this dog doing serious physical damage or even killing another dog- so it would be very very real. 

I suggest as a start down-stays at all thresholds. Using a muzzle if needed to prevent damage to the other dog until this is under control. Teaching and re-enforcing "no". Teaching the dog a front-sit or a heel when he feels over-excited as a default.Train down - stay at a distance. Proof it and make it bombproof. 

How is the dog with other dogs, people, cars? Why is he so on edge on walks? Is this a nervous dog overall? Working on that part of it will help, too.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'd stop using the ball...it's just more adrenaline added to an already bad situation.

Capping makes me think the dog is in drive state? I feel like the whole thing is the dog needs to learn to walk in a mellow, obedient state. This is one time that the super boring structured walk, never leave my left knee that a lot of pet dog trainers are so big on, would be the right thing I think. '

Maybe it's happening on walks because that's the biggest excitement for this dog so he's over the top...if so, that would be the first thing I'd work on...walk becomes super structured where dog has to defer to you on everything and there is no explosion of energy anywhere.

Or is it the other dog that causes that state. Either way, condition that in the presence of the other dog, or walking, it is a totally structured calm event. And I would not do it with adrenaline invoking rewards. Absolutely no ball. This dog does not need any adrenaline associated with the other dog.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> So much to this- odd that he's attacking a female. Something may be a bit off in temperament but you should be able to manage him appropriately and stop this especially at 7 months old.
> 
> I agree with the capping. Personally, this dog would also have a real "come to Jesus" moment the second he considered going after my other dog. It wouldn't be dog abuse, but it would be at level with this dog doing serious physical damage or even killing another dog- so it would be very very real.
> 
> ...


When he's on his own he's perfect. He's definitely NOT a nervous dog.

He's really calm and confident, you could throw anything at him when he's on his own and litrally nothing will phase him . He's also super obedient on his own.

The problem is he gets excited that he's going for a walk with his sister and how he deals with his excitement is bullying and beating up his sister. He's a bully.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

I have a boomer ball which I don't give him much as he gets a bit crazy with it.

I might start using that for training. Let him get worked and find a way to snap him out of that state and get him compliment again.

It's the only thing I can think of that recreates his passion losing it as much as my older dog.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

I feel your pain. My pup was a handful. His energy level and prey drive are so high that once something set him off, he was virtually uncontrollable.

In hindsight, the local trainer/behaviorists who were used to working with cocker spaniels and golden retrievers were often more harmful than helpful. Problems with dogs in the same house are challenging so many trainers/behaviorists to avoid them... like yours seem to be doing.

You will hear 1000 different ideas expressed passionately on this forum. 900 of them might be good for the advice-givers dog in the advice-givers situation, but not work at all for you and your situation.

For what it is worth, corrections made the situation worse for my dog. Once he was aroused, he was completely unaware of anything besides the stimulus setting him off.

What worked for us:
1. A tired dog is a good dog. The key to managing the situation was keeping Ole mentally and physically exhausted. Ole thrived on pushing himself rather than sitting around.
2. The reactions happened too fast for me to doing anything about them. Initially, there was nothing I could do to disrupt an outburst. When Ole was 6 months old, he caught and killed an adult racoon... while he was on a 8-foot leash. One moment we were walking along quietly, the next moment he was pouncing on a storm sewer and dragging back a dead raccoon. With time and experience, Ole got better at showing that he was going to react and I got better at reading those signs.
3. Socialization. Pup and I probably spent an hour or more per day on puppy adventures. We basically explored the local community. At first, we stuck to very low stimulation environments, over time, we added external stimulation and distractions.
4. I had to become more interesting than the environment. If I saw a distraction off in the distance, I would take off hooting and hollering in the opposite direction. I would start squeaking his favorite toy and give it a throw.

It took time, but at 11 months, pup can handle almost everything with dignity and grace. He is not at all happy when little dog yip at him. but his does his best to keep the leash slack and stay by my side. As soon as we pass the distraction successfully we have a nice playtime.

FWIW, pup does wear a prong collar on most walks. I have never used it to correct him. It does do a very good job of limiting the self-satisfaction he would get by barking and lunging.

Good luck.

Please look around for a good trainer who has experience with GSDs. They can be a great help


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'd stop using the ball...it's just more adrenaline added to an already bad situation.
> 
> Capping makes me think the dog is in drive state? I feel like the whole thing is the dog needs to learn to walk in a mellow, obedient state. This is one time that the super boring structured walk, never leave my left knee that a lot of pet dog trainers are so big on, would be the right thing I think. '
> 
> ...


My other dog definitely causes his state. Like I've said on his own he's amazing.

I think you're right about calm boring walks . The only reason I've introduced a ball is because when he's focused on that he won't bully my other dog . As his attention is on the ball. 

It's weird as my other dog can hold the ball and he doesn't care she has it . He really doesn't mind ,as long as there is a ball about he will focus on that.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Loki.777 said:


> I understand what you're saying and I agree with you.
> 
> My only issue so far regarding corrections is his age.
> 
> ...


7 months old? Months past old enough to take a firm but fair correction and not mess up any bond, in fact the opposite. stronger bonds are made when there are clear rules and levels of respect.

Either the dog controls the situation or you do and if you let them think they control the situation, it's going to be a harder uphill battle. 

For example, my dogs rough house all the time. Occasionally (like this morning oddly enough) my 9 month old will ramp up a step too high on my 6 year old, coming in hot with a bit too much energy. I rarely (but today) had to step in, swiftly correct and you can see you have the pups attention. Keep in mind he's 100 pounds with a "stupolescent" brain lol. There is zero bond broken there, not a chance you can break his spirit with a simple correction but the point is taken immediately and the level of play dropped considerably. On a normal level, I just have to say that's enough in a firm vice and he stops and goes to his bed. Sometimes just for 30 seconds but the point is, he understands and stops which is amazing for an amped up teenager.

The point is I'm being swift, precise, clear and fair to both dogs. All done without candy, flowers or begging.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

davewis said:


> I feel your pain. My pup was a handful. His energy level and prey drive are so high that once something set him off, he was virtually uncontrollable.
> 
> In hindsight, the local trainer/behaviorists who were used to working with cocker spaniels and golden retrievers were often more harmful than helpful. Problems with dogs in the same house are challenging so many trainers/behaviorists to avoid them... like yours seem to be doing.
> 
> ...


"For what it is worth, corrections made the situation worse for my dog. Once he was aroused, he was completely unaware of anything besides the stimulus setting him off.".

I pretty much this lol.

I agree with what others have said correct as soon as there is any indication he's about to start. I honestly think stopping him before he starts will work.

As long as I can read his tell or he doesn't react in an instant .

Sadly I don't think the trainer's around here are equipped to deal with it. The only place I can think of that deals with a German Shepherds is a sports dog club with is a few hours away.

Not sure if they are interested in dealing with behavioural issues as it's all about training protection dogs (it's not a business, just a club ). It's not something I want to get into but I guess they might be worth speaking too.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> Sure but It was suggested to me I wasn't correcting enough. I've been trying to shape the desired behaviour without using harsh corrections.


Try teaching and enforcing an incompatible behavior. If you teach your dog a down from a distance and / or a down in motion, either of those can be generalized to when your dog begins to exhibit unruly behavior towards your other dog.

Do you understand what it means to generalize? Or how to do it?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'd stop using the ball...it's just more adrenaline added to an already bad situation.
> 
> Capping makes me think the dog is in drive state? I feel like the whole thing is the dog needs to learn to walk in a mellow, obedient state. This is one time that the super boring structured walk, never leave my left knee that a lot of pet dog trainers are so big on, would be the right thing I think. '
> 
> ...


Nice catch! Ball = adrenaline overload.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> My other dog definitely causes his state. Like I've said on his own he's amazing.
> 
> I think you're right about calm boring walks . The only reason I've introduced a ball is because when he's focused on that he won't bully my other dog . As his attention is on the ball.
> 
> It's weird as my other dog can hold the ball and he doesn't care she has it . He really doesn't mind ,as long as there is a ball about he will focus on that.


What exactly do you mean that your other dog causes his state?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

One more thing to think about is that your dog is very much enjoying the adrenaline rush of the fight and attack behavior now. So he is looking for an excuse to go into that state and enjoy the high. 

In essence, he's addicted. 

Many of our working dogs enjoy this state because they were bred for protection work and the adrenaline that comes with it- we try to balance that with an off switch, confident temperament, and clear head- but it can be a challenge to get that perfect balance.

A dog that enjoys fighting can be challenging to stop because it is not just fun, it is addictive. 

So whatever you do, realize this isn't an easy fix. You must have some experienced trainers local to you if you search, if not I'd seek out an online trainer who is very experienced. Check and double check into any online trainer, first. If you post here who you're looking at, people will help you figure out if it is the right fit.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> One more thing to think about is that your dog is very much enjoying the adrenaline rush of the fight and attack behavior now. So he is looking for an excuse to go into that state and enjoy the high.
> 
> In essence, he's addicted.
> 
> ...


I think you've nailed it.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What exactly do you mean that your other dog causes his state?


Walks by himself he's well behaved and calm. He only loses his mind when on a walk which involves my other dog. 

I'm not saying it's her fault. Simply her being there is what triggers him.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> Walks by himself he's well behaved and calm. He only loses his mind when on a walk which involves my other dog.
> 
> I'm not saying it's her fault. Simply her being there is what triggers him.


Actually, something else is the trigger. Him attacking her is the resulting behavior of being triggered.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

For my dog’s reactivity, I switched to a dominant dog collar (slip lead) because the prong collar amped him up. It was actually much easier to control him on the DD collar than prong when he was in a frenzied state.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

It might sound like some of the people trying to help are being very picky about their choice of words. However, from my limited experience, that precision is helpful in understanding how your dog is behaving and how to change that behavior.

IE. Something is causing his arousal level to escalate rapidly. While in the heightened state of arousal, he tends to stop listening and attack his sister.

One interesting thing to look into is Larry Krohn's description of behavior Vs mindset. It might not help you solve your problem directly, but it will help you understand the process better.

And as @IllinoisNative states, her experience with a prong collar vs dominant dog collar was exactly the opposite of mine. With a flat buckle collar or slip collar, my pup would work himself into such a frenzy that I thought he would hurt himself. As you learn more about your dog, you will be able to pick the right tools and training approach that work for you, your dog, and your situation.

German Shepherds are smart, curious, and opinionated dogs. That makes them great working dogs and companions.... but it also means fixing problems can be hard and take effort.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Actually, something else is the trigger. Him attacking her is the resulting behavior of being triggered.


I really need to understand this. So any insight is appreciated. 

What do you think the trigger could be?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

davewis said:


> It might sound like some of the people trying to help are being very picky about their choice of words. However, from my limited experience, that precision is helpful in understanding how your dog is behaving and how to change that behavior.
> 
> IE. Something is causing his arousal level to escalate rapidly. While in the heightened state of arousal, he tends to stop listening and attack his sister.
> 
> ...


I would really like to understand is thought process. 

Like a previous poster suggested It's almost like he's addicted and really enjoys the adrenaline rush. 

I have so much to learn and need to have a better understanding. I really appreciate everyone helping me here.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Loki, would it be somehow possible to get a video of him jumping on the other dog? It's really impossible to say what's triggering it without seeing the body language of both dogs.

Since you don't seem to have anyone available to help you where you live, that might be the best way of doing this.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> I really need to understand this. So any insight is appreciated.
> 
> What do you think the trigger could be?


You are the only one on this forum who is there to watch the sequence of events leading up to the attack. You are the one who has to tell us.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

He's happily walking along , suddenly randomly playfully jumps on her . She backs off, tried to distance herself and he's now our if his mind . Happens really fast, in a few seconds.

I mentioned I believe she's the trigger which causes excitement and activates his prey drive. I honestly believe he enjoys doing it.

You said she's not the trigger. I'm wondering what I should be looking out for to really understand what's going on?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Loki, would it be somehow possible to get a video of him jumping on the other dog? It's really impossible to say what's triggering it without seeing the body language of both dogs.
> 
> Since you don't seem to have anyone available to help you where you live, that might be the best way of doing this.


I can certainly try and think it will help you understand.

Thing is though it's mostly managed and we can mostly prevent it from happening. I'm not going to try to make it delebritly set him off. 

If I happen to capture it. I'll post it. At the very least I'll try to video him walking with her. Mabye you can pick something up from that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> He's happily walking along , suddenly randomly playfully jumps on her . She backs off, tried to distance herself and he's now our if his mind . Happens really fast, in a few seconds.
> 
> I mentioned I believe she's the trigger which causes excitement and activates his prey drive. I honestly believe he enjoys doing it.
> 
> You said she's not the trigger. I'm wondering what I should be looking out for to really understand what's going on?


Is your dog playing or fighting? Judging by his age, and that he gets along other times with your dog, it sounds like he is playing, not fighting. 

How much exercise is he getting and what kind? How do you walk the two dogs together?


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

A couple of things things that come to mind are:
1. Practicing doorway manners.
2. Playing tug / drop.
3. Playing fetch / return.

From your description, pup might be bubbling over with energy ( like every other puppy in the world). He makes a gesture to play with his sister. For whatever reason, his sister rejects the gesture to play. So pup lashes out in frustration.

The three things I listed are all about helping pup figure out (1) what type of play/behavior you think is appropriate and that (2) pup must learn to turn his play impulse on and off when you tell him to.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is your dog playing or fighting? Judging by his age, and that he gets along other times with your dog, it sounds like he is playing, not fighting.
> 
> How much exercise is he getting and what kind? How do you walk the two dogs together?


Three walks a day. Usually at least one walk practicing obedience in challenging environment. Whatever I feel like practicing, shops , crowed areas, around heavy traffic, dogs, horses, loads of random things.

Second walk is in the woods near my house . Mostly off leash,. Sometimes retieive games in fields.

Mabye a few hours trading and play a day at home on top of that.

Third walk is dogs together. I do this with my girlfriend as two people are needed .

It's definitely not play . He's not attacking her to fight , he's attacking her in frustration I think .


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

This is a lot to diagnos over the internet. I don't think this is something I personally could fix without teaching you how to deal with it. It sounds like the trainers you have worked with are from the same company. Do you mind sharing who it is you worked with?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> This is a lot to diagnos over the internet. I don't think this is something I personally could fix without teaching you how to deal with it. It sounds like the trainers you have worked with are from the same company. Do you mind sharing who it is you worked with?


I think you're getting warmer. Why do you think he is frustrated?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

davewis said:


> A couple of things things that come to mind are:
> 1. Practicing doorway manners.
> 2. Playing tug / drop.
> 3. Playing fetch / return.
> ...


Quite possibly it is frustration that he can't play. 

Off leash he will get wound up if he can't catch her. If he catches her, he crashed into her (too hard), but it stops there and doesn't escalate. He can also be called in with a recall while chasing her. They both come back into together and sit calmly Infront of us. He does get excited but you can calm and control him. 

If me and my girlfriend are out with the two dogs and we split up for whatever reason. As soon as Finn notices he's splitting from the older dog he completely looses his mind. He's screaming and uncontrollable until the meet back up . On meeting he wants to attack . 

This extends to the car. Me and my girlfriend were traveling home with the two dogs the other day. For whatever reason I thought I'd get out at park near my house with Finn (the puppy) to have a little run about. My girlfriend drove home with the oldest dog. Even though Finn was at his favourite place , he completely lost his mind because he was separated from the older dog. He can't stand being apart from the older dog when they are out together.

That brings it to the main problem while walking on leash. Maybe it's him attempting to play, her backing off and him being restrained and not being able to get to her is causing it.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think you're getting warmer. Why do you think he is frustrated?


Read my above post. It's possible it's frustration not being able to get to her .


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> This is a lot to diagnos over the internet. I don't think this is something I personally could fix without teaching you how to deal with it. It sounds like the trainers you have worked with are from the same company. Do you mind sharing who it is you worked with?


It's a fairly small business near me in the UK. I've not exactly portrayed them in the best light so I'd rather not name them .


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think you're getting warmer. Why do you think he is frustrated?


That is the question I don't quite have an answer to. OP says they are fine together in the house. My question there is if they interact and play in the house or lay around. If I am correct Op, you say this also happens when you train them together outside? When you walk them together, it sounds like a very different experience for your dog. When you pass other dogs with him on his own, is he allowed to interact with them, or do you follow a different strategy? Do you ever walk them both off leash together?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> That is the question I don't quite have an answer to. OP says they are fine together in the house. My question there is if they interact and play in the house or lay around. If I am correct Op, you say this also happens when you train them together outside? When you walk them together, it sounds like a very different experience for your dog. When you pass other dogs with him on his own, is he allowed to interact with them, or do you follow a different strategy? Do you ever walk them both off leash together?


They are fine together in the house. They lay around and play. If they are getting to rough I just have to say "enough" and they both immediately stop and settle. I've also been practicing place with him in the house , he's got a raised bed for that . Once he's in place he will just chill and won't move, my older dog can be doing anything around him and he just stays, he only comes off when I release him . I've been doing it to hopefully teach him self restraint around her, in the hopes it would transfer over to walks.

When he's on his own other dogs are zero issue. Litrally will walk right past them and not even get excited or care. Like the other day we encountered an aggressive adult German Shepard that was muzzled and leashed. My and Finn needed to walk past , so the owner backed up and gave us room to pass. The dog was going crazy acting like he wanted to kill up. Finn litrally trotted right past him, not a care in the world , completely uneffected, he didn't take s blind bit if notice . It was unreal, but this is Finn.

I know all the dogs and dog owners in my area so when it's just me and Finn in the park and people I know are about with their dogs he's always off leash with other dogs. He's so gentle, friendly and polite. To be honest he puts all the other dogs to shame because of how obedient and well behaved he his.

It drives me insane when people constantly tell me how well trained and well behaved he is . If only they saw my struggles at night when he's out with his sister when nobody is about.

He is the puppy version of dr jekyll mr hyde.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Well, like I said earlier, you need to start generalizing his obedience and add an incompatible behavior.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well, like I said earlier, you need to start generalizing his obedience and add an incompatible behavior.


I don't understand what that means?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> I don't understand what that means?


When you train a dog, you start in a low distraction area and work your way up...slowly.. to bigger distractions. In your situation, your dog is semi trained so you are off to a good start. Work him on sit or down in your kitchen with your other dog wandering around. If he is too distracted remove your other dog. Put her outside or crate her. If he does well with her there, then you can put her in another room and then do his routine under that distraction. Keep doing this until you get an 80% compliance. 

Once you do, you can go and repeat the process in your living room. Every time you hit the 80% compliance, move on. Next you can do your bedroom, basement, garage, back porch, backyard, side yard, front yard, the street in front of your house and so forth. It sounds tedious and it will be for the first few challenges but things will move on quicker wants he starts getting it. 

A down in motion or a down at a distance are excellent commands for you to teach. They would be incompatible behaviors from him attacking your other dog. First train the down in motion or down at a distance and once he is proficient at it, when you see him starting to attack your other dog on a walk, give him the down command. He can't attack her and down at the same time. Also, down tends to be a calming command so double bonus for you.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Another example of incompatible behavior that I used with my lab was teaching him to steal people's shoes when they came over. When he was young I had a lot of trouble because he became over-excited when people came into the house I tried all sorts of 'recommended' approaches. But none of them seemed to work. (In hindsight I should have completely excused myself from the normal greeting at the door to teach pup how to behave.)

What I came up with asking the guests to completely ignore the dog for a few minutes and just enter the house. At the same time, I taught pup to take their shoes and put them at the foot of my bed. Instead of bothering the guests, for the first few minutes pup would be busy sneaking back and forth with the shoes. Then, when the guests left they would wonder where their shoes were.

I would give them each some treats to give to the dog for hiding their shoes in my room. After a while, pup looked forward to people coming so he could hide their shoes and get rewarded for giving them back.

Having a 'job' to do rather than just hanging around seemed to help him behave.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Loki.777 said:


> They are fine together in the house. They lay around and play. If they are getting to rough I just have to say "enough" and they both immediately stop and settle. I've also been practicing place with him in the house , he's got a raised bed for that . Once he's in place he will just chill and won't move, my older dog can be doing anything around him and he just stays, he only comes off when I release him . I've been doing it to hopefully teach him self restraint around her, in the hopes it would transfer over to walks.
> 
> When he's on his own other dogs are zero issue. Litrally will walk right past them and not even get excited or care. Like the other day we encountered an aggressive adult German Shepard that was muzzled and leashed. My and Finn needed to walk past , so the owner backed up and gave us room to pass. The dog was going crazy acting like he wanted to kill up. Finn litrally trotted right past him, not a care in the world , completely uneffected, he didn't take s blind bit if notice . It was unreal, but this is Finn.
> 
> ...


The things you say aren't leading us to the trigger. What I can tell you is that it does not randomly happen. There is a sequence that happens. Whether you find the trigger or some other earlier point, ultimately you need to disrupt that sequence before it escalates beyond your control, to the point where he is no longer responsive. I brought up the company you use because going to different trainers from the same place is not consulting different people in my opinion. While there may be some differences here and there, for the most part they will all operate the same. You need to go to a different place for training, preferably one that deals with higher drive dogs often. The incompatible behaviors, things the dog can't do and still do the undesirable behavior, are a great way to disrupt the sequence.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

> Sadly I don't think the trainer's around here are equipped to deal with it. The only place I can think of that deals with a German Shepherds is a sports dog club with is a few hours away.
> 
> Not sure if they are interested in dealing with behavioural issues as it's all about training protection dogs (it's not a business, just a club ). It's not something I want to get into but I guess they might be worth speaking too.


I think you should consider trying to contact these people. Good clubs often have members who have tons of experience and are willing to help. 
We drove two and a half hours to get our dog to a club. Several members had dog training businesses and knew what they were doing. It was worth it for sure.
What club are you referencing?


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

+1 to contacting the local club.

If nothing else, they will be able to assure you that these quirks are not un-common behaviors in GSDs. Which will give you the peace of mind to work through them with confidence.

Fearing you have an 'aggressive puppy' can start you off on the back foot.

One thing that helped me was going to a local dog agility competition. It was ironic that several of the well-performing dogs (trained by local 'experts') were so reactive that they had to be carried in and out of the event.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

davewis said:


> Another example of incompatible behavior that I used with my lab was teaching him to steal people's shoes when they came over.


What a wonderful activity for a lab - taking something they do naturally, and putting it to good use! Love it! 

The first schutzhund club I belonged to would not have had the resources to help Finn. The one I joined after that was run by a man who trained dogs for a living. He most certainly would have been able to help Loki and her dog.

Just a heads-up that not all dog clubs are the same...  But, the people in these clubs definitely understand German shepherds much better than your average pet-dog trainers do.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

True. Not all clubs are the same. If @Loki.777 can reference the club that was discussed, maybe someone will know something about it.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Right I've got some videos. Some of Finn on his own, some with my other dog off leash and walking . 

I found it hard to film Finn being triggered and having control. Couldn't really concentrate on Finn and filming at the same time. Also missed opportunities to film as I had to concentrate him fully when he was about to go. 

The files are too big to uploads so I'm going to have to work out how to upload them some


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Loki.777 said:


> Right I've got some videos. Some of Finn on his own, some with my other dog off leash and walking .
> 
> I found it hard to film Finn being triggered and having control. Couldn't really concentrate on Finn and filming at the same time. Also missed opportunities to film as I had to concentrate him fully when he was about to go.
> 
> The files are too big to uploads so I'm going to have to work out how to upload them some


You can upload to YouTube and attach it here. It might be easier to have your girlfriend record ypu with both dogs if you want/decide to try it again.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

I'll start with how Finn is on his own . He's consistent and acts like this around people , other dogs , whatever. 





Below is just playing retrieve on his own . 






I'll upload and post videos with my other dog in a bit.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Finn offleash with Evie without a ball.





Will chases her, slam into her , knock her over but it doesn't escalate. I'm not really concerned about this . 

Finn on leash getting frustrated. He's not fully there yet and will listen. I had a hard time filming and trying to hold him . From this state he escalates.






2nd video of him






Below is straight after. I have him a ball and he instantly calmed down. This is what they are like together off leash if they have balls to play with.





.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Examples of walking . I didn't get a video of him losing it. 


With a ball in his mouth they can be walked together and by one person. 






Same again he has a ball. 






The below video is me walking Finn with my girlfriend walking Evie just behind us. He didn't have a ball as I wanted to try film his body language when he was thinking about attacking her.






As long as you stop him looking back at her, he won't pounce on her.

If he's on leash and does get to her when he's in this state, he completely looses his mind . It's really aggressive , when you pull him of he's screaming, barking lunging and going crazy.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sorry they are not thet best videos, I'm the best at multi tasking.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I can't tell from the cellphone but are you walking him on a harness?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I can't tell from the cellphone but are you walking him on a harness?


No. He has a harness on but I'm using a slip lead.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

What I THINK I'm seeing is a young dog that enjoys playing with his 'sister' more than he does having to listen to you and walk nicely on a leash. He's reaching puberty, and is getting strong enough that he is trying to 'blow you off (ignore you).

If this was true aggression. someone would have been hurt by now. Someone COULD get hurt, because he's not listening to you, and could drag you off your feet by the time he gets his full growth. Also, Evie may get fed up with this behaviour, and retaliate.

Hmmm...might not be a bad idea if she did! When a female disciplines a male, it rarely has serious consequences, other than the male being put in his place.

Would like to get David's input on this, but I think I'm right.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> What I THINK I'm seeing is a young dog that enjoys playing with his 'sister' more than he does having to listen to you and walk nicely on a leash. He's reaching puberty, and is getting strong enough that he is trying to 'blow you off (ignore you).
> 
> If this was true aggression. someone would have been hurt by now. Someone COULD get hurt, because he's not listening to you, and could drag you off your feet by the time he gets his full growth. Also, Evie may get fed up with this behaviour, and retaliate.
> 
> ...


Zero chance of Evie disciplining him. It's not the type of dog she is. 

Yeah I agree. I don't think it's true aggression but I do think it may escalate that. 

If it doesn't stop it could escalate from just with Evie to him reacting like that with other dogs (which he's great with at the moment). 

It definitely needs to stop and need to learn how to have more control. 

Can you see any obvious I'm doing wrong?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

In the videos where he is hyped up and wants to pull me over and get to his sister and I he get him sit. 

He just stared at her getting ready to lunge at her. I don't know what to do when he's doing this. 

How do I break his focus on her and get him to calm?


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I don’t see true aggression. I see more bratty behavior with Evie. I’m also interested in what David will say.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> Zero chance of Evie disciplining him. It's not the type of dog she is.
> 
> Yeah I agree. I don't think it's true aggression but I do think it may escalate that.
> 
> ...


Constructive criticism. You issue multiple commands at the same time and your timing is not so good. We all have been there. Try practicing your commands without your dog. Once you feel that you got the hang of it, then add the dog back in.

The one thing that stood out to me is your dog’s lack of enthusiasm to play ball with you. I would knock off the obedience while playing ball for now and concentrate on just having fun and getting him engaged to play with you. I suspect he finds obedience with you boring. This can have a negative impact on your relationship. Lighten up on the quantity of training while focusing on the quality.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

He just stared at her getting ready to lunge at her. I don't know what to do when he's doing this.
How do I break his focus on her and get him to calm? 

You CORRECT him! As you are doing in the video, with your voice and the slip lead.

I've had dog-reactive dogs, and the way I fixed it was to teach a 'look at me' command, starting indoors so there's no distractions. You hold a treat in your hand, and say "Watch" or "Look at me". When the dog does, you say "YES!!" and reward.

Gradually , you move it outside, and add distractions, first with a dog walking past at a distance, then decrease the distance. Correct him for failure to break his focus as you did in the video.

One thing that allows him to get out of control is when he gets too far in front of you. Try to keep his shoulder right by your leg, and that will lessen the chance of him jumping on Evie.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just out of curiosity, I would like to see a video of them playing at home.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

One thing you really need to make plain to him is walking with Evie means he has to be just as well behaved as he does when walking alone.

He seems to think it's okay to try to play with her. Right now, he's obviously finding jumping on her rewarding. You have GOT to stop the behaviour, even if that means making your corrections more unpleasant.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> One thing you really need to make plain to him is walking with Evie means he has to be just as well behaved as he does when walking alone.
> 
> He seems to think it's okay to try to play with her. Right now, he's obviously finding jumping on her rewarding. You have GOT to stop the behaviour, even if that means making your corrections more unpleasant.


Yeah. Thing is with the corrections my girlfriend doesn't like it. Plus people around here are really against giving corrections. 

Few months back I had with women shouting in the street i was abusing my dog. It turned into a big argument. It was ridiculous. At the time Finn was actually walking nicely, we were walking on the pavement next to the road, it wasn't bad but Finn was getting a little bit away from my left heel and was just a tiny bit too close to the road than I would have liked. 

I gave him the tiniest little correction just to get him back close to my leg. This Car slammed on its brakes, women got out her car , blocking the road, screaming and shouting , traffic starting to back up. 

It's stupid be a lot of people see corrections as dog abuse and act like but jobs. Seen it a few times.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

That looks almost exactly like how my dog would react to some other dogs. For Ole it ended up being a chain of: excitement -> frustration -> inability to communicate with the other dog -> Other dog responding negatively (didn't want to engage in rough play) -> my dog lashing out.

The first thing that comes to mind is how calmly he plays fetch. Maybe he just a calm dog  I on the other hand like to 'amp up' my dogs when playing tug, fetch, flirt-pole, etc. The idea is to teach pup there is an ebb and flow to energy levels. Some time fun and high energy is appropriate. Some time calm is appropriate.

It is similar to the way I dealt with the land shark issue. I used a flirt-pole. It didn't take long for pup to figure out that I was not trying to squash his natural instinct to chase and chew.... Chasing and chewing were encouraged, as long as I set the time and place.

It might seem like it is approaching the issues sideways... and it is. At least for us, things like this worked.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Constructive criticism. You issue multiple commands at the same time and your timing is not so good. We all have been there. Try practicing your commands without your dog. Once you feel that you got the hang of it, then add the dog back in.
> 
> The one thing that stood out to me is your dog’s lack of enthusiasm to play ball with you. I would knock off the obedience while playing ball for now and concentrate on just having fun and getting him engaged to play with you. I suspect he finds obedience with you boring. This can have a negative impact on your relationship. Lighten up on the quantity of training while focusing on the quality.


He did a few retrives before but having him sit and wait killed his enthusiasm. It was actually our first time playing that , so I kinda killed his drive by making him hit and wait. I think he was unsure big it was ok for him to get the ball and releasing him. 

It didn't help I was avoided talking or getting excited just because I was filming and didn't want it on there.

Finn's hard to get motivated, he takes effort to fire him. He's like the with everyone. In lockdown he went to puppy classes/daycare the trainer's couldn't work him out. Not interested in them, not interested in other puppies.

Evie is completely different, She's like a race car ready to go. 

Yeah you're right about timing and multiple commands. A lot if them time I just say stuff without really thinking lol. 

Definitely need to improve that.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

davewis said:


> That looks almost exactly like how my dog would react to some other dogs. For Ole it ended up being a chain of: excitement -> frustration -> inability to communicate with the other dog -> Other dog responding negatively (didn't want to engage in rough play) -> my dog lashing out.
> 
> The first thing that comes to mind is how calmly he plays fetch. Maybe he just a calm dog  I on the other hand like to 'amp up' my dogs when playing tug, fetch, flirt-pole, etc. The idea is to teach pup there is an ebb and flow to energy levels. Some time fun and high energy is appropriate. Some time calm is appropriate.
> 
> ...


I didn't want him amped up during that game of fetch. We had already played the excited version.

I wanted to slow him down. Today was the first time teaching him to sit and stay at my heel and not move when I threw the ball. He was to only go when I threw the ball.

To get this I played a regular game , wore him out and then having to sit , stay not move , then retieive, kinda killed his drive.

I kinda wanted him in that state as he could learn to stay and not be too enthusiastic about jumping the gun .

I've not tried a flirt poll, I did try to get him into tug but he's not that interested. 

What I have is a boomer ball he goes mental for it amps him up in an instant. So that's probably good to use.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Nothing about any of that says aggression to me.

I hear you exasperated and powerless. You are emotional and you feel weak. He's being a punk and he has your number.

He's totally checked out on the walk. No engagement with you. His idea of fun doesn't involve you. Someone mentioned backing off OB (probably MAWL but I'm too lazy to look  ) and I agree. Lay off OB until you can make it fun.

I would immediately stop letting them play together outside. Inside is ok but low key. Stop it if they get rowdy. This dog needs you to be the fun, interesting thing in his life.

Do you play tug? I suggest you start. You need to get this dog engaged with you and that means you need to be fun. There are rules. The dog must only bite the tug when told. He must let go when told. He must bring it back when you let go or throw it. If you don't have all this in your repertoire, I recommend the Michael Ellis tug DVD.

ETA: it would be super helpful if you had a third party video so we could really see what's going on.

EATA: this is not a difficult fix for a trainer. If you want me to speak with them, PM me and I'll give you contact info.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Nothing about any of that says aggression to me.
> 
> I hear you exasperated and powerless. You are emotional and you feel weak. He's being a punk and he has your number.
> 
> ...


haha yeah you're right , It's been going on a while now and it's really worn me down, that's for sure. I just feels like , here we go again , kinda killed my enthusiasm and confidence in being able to get in into check. I've been looking for help for a while and been getting advice like "give him chicken "or "make sure he wears a harness so he doesn't hurt himself when he attacks her" .

I definitely need to come at it with a fresh perspective. Which I think everyone on this forum is giving me. 

He's never been naturally interested in tug. Although I sure I could get him interested in it, if it's needed.

When you mean immediately stop them playing outside, do you mean just walks together but no playing ? Or stop walks together?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Loki.777 said:


> haha yeah you're right , It's been going on a while now and it's really worn me down, that's for sure. I just feels like , here we go again , kinda killed my enthusiasm and confidence in being able to get in into check. I've been looking for help for a while and been getting advice like "give him chicken "or "make sure he wears a harness so he doesn't hurt himself when he attacks her" .
> 
> I definitely need to come at it with a fresh perspective. Which I think everyone on this forum is giving me.
> 
> He's never been naturally interested in tug. Although I sure I could get him interested in it, if it's needed.


Bring him to my house for 2 days 

I get it! I really do. It can be exhausting when you hit a wall. I know you are trying super hard to just do the right thing.

It's not about chicken, or tug, or anything except that dog having fun and engaging with you. Chicken and tug are tools. A potential means to an end. I suggested tug because it allows the dog to get really physical with you, and most GSDs really like that.

You need currency with the dog. You have to have fun with him. It needs to be mutually beneficial. If that means crochet, than so be it. Just find some way to have fun and reward him for being a good boy.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm such a double poster...


Did you see the trainers with him? Were they all squeaky voice cartoon animated goober with him?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I'm such a double poster...
> 
> 
> Did you see the trainers with him? Were they all squeaky voice cartoon animated goober with him?


It was in lockdown so the government rules didn't allow us to be there. They would post videos of what he did that day.

Yeah. They were exactly like that but Finn didn't get excited by them. He just mainly just ignored them.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I'm such a double poster...
> 
> 
> Did you see the trainers with him? Were they all squeaky voice cartoon animated goober with him?


This was his favourite trainer, he would would get a little bit excited by her. Not much though .


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just out of curiosity, I would like to see a video of them playing at home.


They are sleeping now but I'll post an older one.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

+1 to tug.

It took my boy a while to learn to love it. We started with a basket of toys of different shapes and textures. At first, I had to let pup win all the time. We didn't work on 'drop' at all for the first couple of weeks. Trying to get him to drop would kill his enthusiasm.

From a basket of toys, we transitioned to 'two tug'. After pup 'won' I would start waving the other tug around like a crazy person. Pup had to figure out that I was the source of the fun. On its own, a tug just sits there like a dead squirrel.

From 'two tug' we switched to single tug with a drop command. When I said 'drop' I would make the tug go dead by bracing my hand against my knee. The moment, pup released his grip on the tug, I, and the tug, would spring back to life.

It was a gradual process that evolved from playing to engaging.

As a newbie with poor timing, this took us a couple of weeks to learn. It looks like magic when an experienced handler with skill does it!

The two biggest takeaway I found were:
1. Pup looked to me for fun -- what others are calling engagement.
2. No matter how amped up pup was he learn that the only way the game would restart would be to listen to me and drop the tug.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Bring him to my house for 2 days
> 
> I get it! I really do. It can be exhausting when you hit a wall. I know you are trying super hard to just do the right thing.
> 
> ...


Ball is his thing at the moment. To be honest I was racking my brain in ways I could get him really excited and loads of drive. I just can't work him out.

It seems like he doesn't have much enthusiasm for anything but it's obviously there (you see it when he attacks my older dog). I kinda settled on ball because he likes it the most.

But haven't been able to find something he's super crazy. I probably just gave up on tug to easy and I was probably too eager to teach drop.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think you have gotten plenty of good answers. This is a very simple fix in the short term, and a couple long term changes would really help you out. You could try a ball on a rope or string, that is what I started with to get my dog into playing tug. I like to reach a certain level of enthusiasm in the game before I start adding rules so that the dog doesn't check out.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I think you have gotten plenty of good answers. This is a very simple fix in the short term, and a couple long term changes would really help you out. You could try a ball on a rope or string, that is what I started with to get my dog into playing tug. I like to reach a certain level of enthusiasm in the game before I start adding rules so that the dog doesn't check out.


I didn't even realise I was going wrong here. I've been adding rules immediately on everything!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)




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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Leerburg | Balls The balls on a leather cord might be a great start! The foam balls are nice and soft. The roni balls are really tough.

Ole preferred soft things at first like the foam ball and pieces of suede. Over time he started to prefer firmer things he could really hold.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

He starts to talk about it at the end of that video, but one of the ways to build interest in playing tug is chase. You can try to run around and get add lots of movement to the toy to get him interested.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> Ball is his thing at the moment. To be honest I was racking my brain in ways I could get him really excited and loads of drive. I just can't work him out.
> 
> It seems like he doesn't have much enthusiasm for anything but it's obviously there (you see it when he attacks my older dog). I kinda settled on ball because he likes it the most.
> 
> But haven't been able to find something he's super crazy. I probably just gave up on tug to easy and I was probably too eager to teach drop.


What? Why are you looking to get him really excited with loads of drive? That is what is happening when he harasses your other dog and what brings you here in the first place. 

I missed some of the videos and went back and watched them. It is hard to watch them on a cell phone but you said that your boy body slams your girl and she gets up, dusts herself off and all is good. No, that needs to stop righr now. He WILL hurt her even in play especially with body slamming. Correct that now. If you can't call him off when you see it about to happen, then leash him up and fun and games are over. Have you taught him the meaning of No or Leave it? Do it ASAP and start using it. 

The main thing I see in the play videos is a dog that has not had proper training. Get this book, you can get it on ebook. Go back to square one and start all over. You have tried to train this dog to the best of your ability but you just don't know how. 









Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition: Booth, Sheila: 9780966302004: Amazon.com: Books


Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition [Booth, Sheila] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition



www.amazon.com





In the meantime, no more rough play. In your situation, that means if BOTH dogs aren't lying down playing like in the one video, then they don't play... and enforce it. Your boy will only get bigger and stronger. Stop it now. 

Find something that your dog enjoys. Look up Stonnie Dennis and adventure training on YouTube. Start building a relationship with your dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Just as a reference in a playing to training scenario, I can recall Valor out of a play fight with another dog and he will instantly respond. If his willingness to respond to me was less than the other dog, he wouldn't be playing with the other dog.

With good behavior and training comes the freedom to play with other dogs. Until you have that kind of relationship, he should be playing with you.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Loki.777 said:


> Yeah. Thing is with the corrections my girlfriend doesn't like it. Plus people around here are really against giving corrections.
> 
> Few months back I had with women shouting in the street i was abusing my dog. It turned into a big argument. It was ridiculous. At the time Finn was actually walking nicely, we were walking on the pavement next to the road, it wasn't bad but Finn was getting a little bit away from my left heel and was just a tiny bit too close to the road than I would have liked.
> 
> ...


Well, this isn't going to help you much then in the advice I'm going to give you.
Saying no, no, nope quietly over and over again as corrections will do nothing zero zilch to chance the situation. Those aren't corrections, he's not paying attention, he's still ignoring you. You sound like you're giving him a suggestion, you're asking. you're begging.

This is a great dog that has decided that he's in control now. I think you know what a fair but decisive correction is but because your girlfriend "doesn't like it" and some busy body slammed on her brakes, you're afraid to help your dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> I gave him the tiniest little correction just to get him back close to my leg. This Car slammed on its brakes, women got out her car , blocking the road, screaming and shouting , traffic starting to back up.
> 
> It's stupid be a lot of people see corrections as dog abuse and act like but jobs. Seen it a few times.


SMH... honestly!!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Your dog gets over aroused, lunges / bodyslams your female, and unloads his frustration on your female. This is self rewarding. It is a similar pattern to their offleash play. No wonder he is conflicted.

You need to stop him from becoming over aroused, look for what is the catalyst for his over arousal and change the environment to eliminate it. Is it pent up energy? Another dog? A jogger? Boredom? The leash? 

Next you need to stop the behavior by teaching and reinforcing another or incompatible behavior, like a down, when he has been triggered. I would keep the other behavior simple, something easy to train. Set him up for success.

Lastly, you need to remove access to his reinforcer, your female dog, and replace it with a new reinforcer to his replacement behavior, (the down). Either have your girlfriend take the other dog home, walk behind you, or walk in another direction while you reinforce the other / incompatible behavior. This really doesn't need physical aversives.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your dog gets over aroused, lunges / bodyslams your female, and unloads his frustration on your female. This is self rewarding. It is a similar pattern to their offleash play. No wonder he is conflicted.
> 
> You need to stop him from becoming over aroused, look for what is the catalyst for his over arousal and change the environment to eliminate it. Is it pent up energy? Another dog? A jogger? Boredom? The leash?
> 
> ...


Well stated plan.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> IT sounds like he is putting both YOU and the other dog at risk of serious injury when he does this, so why SHOULDN' there be consequences?? You want to wait until you or the other dog gets seriously bitten??
> 
> The all-positive mindset REALLY makes me shake my head sometimes! If this were my dog, he'd be left with NO doubt in his mind whatsoever that he messed up BIG TIME!
> 
> There HAVE to be consequences sometimes. Look at it this way: someone's kid is about to hit your kid over the head with a stick. You don't just offer them some candy! You take the stick away, and tell them off!


shock collar then might help? he needs Cesar Milan


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Lots of things to think about and I've got a decent idea what I should be doing moving forward.

I do think what what's been suggested, that I need to build more enthusiasm towards me is correct. I have struggled to find that thing that makes him super enthusiastic playing with me . I previously said I needed to find how to excite him , increase drive, when I said that I was referred having excitement for play with me. 

What happened is I couldn't find anything he loved doing , so I assumed he wasn't interested / is a calm dog. Also either dog will whine and cry if I give the other a lot of individual play and attention. So in the house I've not been doing it as much as I should. 

So excited play with me has definitely been neglected, I suppose our relationship is a bit like to him "do this, this and this" . It's possible it could be the cause of the habit of using Evie as an outlet to let off steam.

So definitely something I'm going to work on. I'm going to really work on developing a tug/play and trying to avoid him getting type of fun from Evie. Also as suggested it's probably a good idea to cut back on constantly trying to teach obedience (quality over quantity as suggested) . So yeah I've probably been really boring . 

Also as suggested a fresh start may be good, Even if it's just for me. So I might buy that book mentioned by workingline , or consider any other structured programs to follow. Everyone's thoughts on books/video courses, and a list of recommendations please?



As with offleash stuff with Evie . It was suggested to keep him on leash while she's off or put him on leash and remove him from her if things get out of hand. I don't feel like this is the solution , the reason being is if he can't get to Evie or he's removed from ever Finn gets 100 times worse. He goes from hard to control to completely uncontrollable, it's a pretty dangrous state for him to be in.

As for being off leash with Evie not decided if I should stop it or not, they have to be either on leash together or offleash together (at the moment) . He will slam into her BUT he does have a good recall and I can call him back in mid chase and he immediately comes back in to sit and he's immediately calm. This excited behaviour is unique to Evie and NOT other dogs , in the presents of other dogs on/off leash, he's always calm , listens and never rough , he's actually really polite. 

This is definitely not the solution but it may help understand why he's doing it. What completely cuts off his excited behaviour around Evie is him having a ball, he doesn't need to be playing with the ball just have one.

When he has a ball his excitement towards Evie instantly shuts off . If he's holding a ball on a walk or has a ball off leash the behaviour will not happen. Zero rough play, no jumping on her, no pulling towards her, no chasing, no lunging. The bad behaviour is completely illuminated. 

I posted a few the videos with him on and off leash with a ball to show this . You can see he's calm when he has it . Always having a ball is definitely NOT the solution but I think it's key to understanding his bad behaviour. Why can a ball completely shut down his bad behaviour and prevent it taking place in the first place?

Should I continue to keep using a ball to manage his bad behaviour and prevent it from happening until I make enough progress to fix the issue, get to a point I don't need it to mange?

I can't decide what's best as the problem. Use it or not. When he has a ball he's not interested in Evie and he won't carry out bad behaviour but the negative is when he has a ball he isn't focused on me either. 

As for managing him while he looses it . At some point along the line I'm going to screw up and I'm probably going to be in the situation where he looses it again.

I need certainly how to deal with it. I need a way to snap him out of it and regain control. I've lost a lot of confidence in my ability to deal with him in these situations. When he's, pulling , lunging , braking , trying to get to Evie to attack her, I need absolute clarity on exactly what I should do. 

Right now I'm conflicted / unsure about what to do. I think being able to deal with the situation effectively will boost my confidence about dealing with him a lot. I think it will be a huge step for us .

As it stands removing him from Evie in this situation makes it 100 times worse (he goes mental), half assed corrections and him choking himself trying to get to her is probably aggravating and amping him up and making him worse.

So yeah I desperately need clarity on exactly what I need to do when it happens . 

A video, description, or whatever.

I'm not against harsh corrections and will do them if it's honestly what's best for him, but I need to see exactly what it looks like and I need to be absolutely certain it's nessesary.


Thank you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

1) You don't want to create excitement in this dog. He's a pet. Calm is good.

2) Pick one plan and stick to it. Picking bits and pieces from different advice and trying to meld those pieces together is only setting your dog up for failure. There is a reason that things are done and in what particular order.

3) Try off leash hiking with your male dog only. NO OBEDIENCE. You may want to try a little Nosework with him.

4) I hope you didn't come to this forum looking for support and encouragement for using physical aversives and a guide on how to do it. If you did, you just wasted a lot of people's time and set the groundwork in the future for a cacophony of 20 posts saying hire a trainer with no advice given for the next person that comes here looking for help. The problem you presented is not a dog problem. It's an owner problem and there won't be any effective or long term results by using physical aversives on the dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Loki.777 said:


> It's possible it could be the cause of the habit of using Evie as an outlet to let off steam.


Yes, I think that's quite possible. And I think the ball calming him down may show he uses playing ball with you to let off steam. Maybe even just holding it makes him think he's going to get to play?


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

"1) You don't want to create excitement in this dog. He's a pet. Calm is good."

It was pointed out my dog has no enthusiasm for playing or paying attention with me. It was suggested to really get into games like tug to build that enthusiasm with playful interaction .

So you don't believe building his enthusiasm for playing with me is not helpful . So I should be just focusing on calm?

2) Pick one plan and stick to it. Picking bits and pieces from different advice and trying to meld those pieces together is only setting your dog up for failure. There is a reason that things are done and in what particular order.

I'm trying to find a plan that will work.

Lots of conflicting information and it's hard to be sure or exactly which advice to follow . I've not put anything into action yet.

I'm simply trying to formulate a plan with the information presented to me . It's the reason I asked opinions on book/video course recommendations.

You're right I do need a certain plan to follow in a particular order. At the moment it's all about finding that plan.

3) Try off leash hiking with your male dog only. NO OBEDIENCE. You may want to try a little Nosework with him.

Yes that's a great idea. We do that quite often , the hiking but not the nose work.

Maybe I should do more as I know my dog enjoys it more than traveling to the city for walks. The main reason I've been going to the city is to get him comfortable in different environments.

4) I hope you didn't come to this forum looking for support and encouragement for using physical aversives and a guide on how to do it. If you did, you just wasted a lot of people's time and set the groundwork in the future for a cacophony of 20 posts saying hire a trainer with no advice given for the next person that comes here looking for help. The problem you presented is not a dog problem. It's an owner problem and there won't be any effective or long term results by using physical aversives on the dog.


Definitely not. It's just been suggested my corrections are not harsh enough.

It's doesn't happen often but it can happen. I find myself in a situation where Finn is on the leash wanting to hurt Evie. It might not be true aggression but he is going to hurt her if not stopped.

It's impossible to remove him from the situation as it amps him up and he gets much worse. He then becomes a danger to himself .

Please give you your opinion on what I need to do in this situation to keep both dogs safe . Telling me what not to do isn't helpful.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Yes, I think that's quite possible. And I think the ball calming him down may show he uses playing ball with you to let off steam. Maybe even just holding it makes him think he's going to get to play?


It's a weird one. He's not even excited about have the ball. 

It's like a pacifier.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Loki.777 said:


> I find myself in a situation where Finn is on the leash wanting to hurt Evie. It might not be true aggression but he is going to hurt her if not stopped.
> 
> It's impossible to remove him from the situation as it amps him up and he gets much worse. He then becomes a danger to himself .
> 
> Please give you your opinion on what I need to do in this situation to keep both dogs safe . Telling me what not to do isn't helpful.


If you don't want to go the aversive route, WL's solution about having him lie down when he goes after Evie sounds like a good one. A dog should be in a calmer frame of mind when lying down. I would keep him in the down until he calms. Go back and watch the video David posted, where the dog is just out of its mind when it sees another dog, but eventually calms. I've been in training situations like that, where BOTH dogs were dog-reactive, and by the end of the class, the trainer had them lying in a down about 8 feet apart!

My dog was the better of the two, as I'd already done a lot of work with her with the 'look at me' exercise I described previously.

The other solution is to just stop walking them together. He's become fixated on Evie as his source of entertainment, and that's got to stop. He should not be body-slamming her when they are playing off leash, either.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Here's what I would do if the dogs were here with me.

I would put a slip lead on Finn and work leash pressure until he respected the leash. No movement, just standing still. No commands. Just leash pressure. I would add Evie and work closer to her using just leash pressure and social pressure. When that is successful, we would go for a walk. Same techniques. Respect the leash and maintain sanity.

The other work, without Evie present, would be tug. The dog needs to learn impulse control and that's not going to happen practicing calm. He doesn't have a calm problem, he has an impulse control problem. OB in drive is the only way I see to actually address the issue that will stick. The dog needs to learn when it is appropriate to be in that state of mind. I don't believe that going for a hike is going to satisfy his need to get amped up and wrestle. He needs to learn to control himself or he will be controlled. The outlet happens after compliance.

Then I would practice OB and impulse control in the walk situation after a long tug session. 


I have absolutely no idea how to explain these steps to someone over the internet. The learning curve is steep. 


This is just my opinion and many other approaches may be better than mine.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Loki.777 said:


> "1) You don't want to create excitement in this dog. He's a pet. Calm is good."
> 
> It was pointed out my dog has no enthusiasm for playing or paying attention with me. It was suggested to really get into games like tug to build that enthusiasm with playful interaction .
> 
> ...


1) You are here because of your dog's unruly behavior. You do not need to teach excitement to create calm behavior. It's counterproductive. I will give you major kudos for when you played ball freely with your dog to take the edge off (create calm) in order to teach calm (sit and wait to fetch the ball). THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT! 
When you start creating excitement and building drive, you are opening a whole other can of worms. I see nothing whatsoever concerning in any of the videos that you posted or in anything that you have said. I see your dog as a nice, calm, softer pup. That's a bonus! Work with it! Don't create something that you are ill prepared to handle. Remember, you are having major issues with a soft puppy. Why would you want to ramp him up? Just a sneaking suspicion but I think when your puppy acts out, deep down inside I am speculating that either you or your SO don't trust your ability to handle him especially if this escalates with age or maybe you fear that this puppy may redirect to yourselves. I could be wrong but I do see an over concern with this minor behavior. 

2) Just stop. You are here because you have failed at formulating a plan that works. Pick advice from people who are experienced AND successful with their dogs that use training methods that align with training methods that you prefer.

3) You don't even realize how many tools you have at your disposal but are failing to make use of them. "It was pointed out my dog has no enthusiasm for playing or paying attention with me." "Maybe I should do more as I know my dog enjoys it more than traveling to the city for walks." The latter is known as adventure training. It is one of the best foundational bond builders. DO IT!!! Just you and him. Don't have to do it all of the time or for long periods of time. Once a week for an hour or two should help you build a powerful bond full of engagement.

4) ALWAYS start with the least aversive method possible and work your way up. You have been given plenty of advice for aversion free solutions. Pick one method and apply it. It will take time and commitment on your part. I think I gave a fairly detailed outline of what I would do in a prior post. If you have questions or need more specifics, please ask. I don't believe I suggested removing him from a situation but removing your female dog. More importantly, what do you mean that he amps up and "is a danger to himself"? Why are you relinquishing your control of this puppy to him? He doesn't call the shots. You do. His life depends on YOU taking control of the situation. Out of curiosity, does your sliplead have a tab on it? Just where is it positioned on his neck?

Most importantly, have a clear picture of what exactly is the terminal response that you hope to achieve. Is it realistic? Keep coming back and adjusting this picture if necessary as you progress. Be willing to put in time.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> 1) You are here because of your dog's unruly behavior. You do not need to teach excitement to create calm behavior. It's counterproductive. I will give you major kudos for when you played ball freely with your dog to take the edge off (create calm) in order to teach calm (sit and wait to fetch the ball). THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT!
> When you start creating excitement and building drive, you are opening a whole other can of worms. I see nothing whatsoever concerning in any of the videos that you posted or in anything that you have said. I see your dog as a nice, calm, softer pup. That's a bonus! Work with it! Don't create something that you are ill prepared to handle. Remember, you are having major issues with a soft puppy. Why would you want to ramp him up? Just a sneaking suspicion but I think when your puppy acts out, deep down inside I am speculating that either you or your SO don't trust your ability to handle him especially if this escalates with age or maybe you fear that this puppy may redirect to yourselves. I could be wrong but I do see an over concern with this minor behavior.
> 
> 2) Just stop. You are here because you have failed at formulating a plan that works. Pick advice from people who are experienced AND successful with their dogs that use training methods that align with training methods that you prefer.
> ...


1) You are here because of your dog's unruly behavior. You do not need to teach excitement to create calm behavior. It's counterproductive. I will give you major kudos for when you played ball freely with your dog to take the edge off (create calm) in order to teach calm (sit and wait to fetch the ball). THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT! 
When you start creating excitement and building drive, you are opening a whole other can of worms. I see nothing whatsoever concerning in any of the videos that you posted or in anything that you have said. I see your dog as a nice, calm, softer pup. That's a bonus! Work with it! Don't create something that you are ill prepared to handle. Remember, you are having major issues with a soft puppy. Why would you want to ramp him up? Just a sneaking suspicion but I think when your puppy acts out, deep down inside I am speculating that either you or your SO don't trust your ability to handle him especially if this escalates with age or maybe you fear that this puppy may redirect to yourselves. I could be wrong but I do see an over concern with this minor behavior. 



This is exactly what I mean by amping him, getting his drive up and leaning how to control and calm him. Below is an example of me introducing this. 

"I will give you major kudos for when you played ball freely with your dog to take the edge off (create calm) in order to teach calm (sit and wait to fetch the ball). THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT! " 

I got him all amped up, full of drive and excitement for retrieving the ball. Then I introduced calm and control. Instead of him acting like a maniac, he had to sit , stay and then go. 

Would this over time not build impulse control ? Get him all amped up and excited , get him good at holding that that excitement , for example while in a sit or down . Then release him to focus that built up energy in say a ball/tug. 

Would it not transfer over to Evie? If he learns impulse control when really excited 
and amped up in games and learns to steady and what to be released .


2) Just stop. You are here because you have failed at formulating a plan that works. Pick advice from people who are experienced AND successful with their dogs that use training methods that align with training methods that you prefer.

What I mean is I'm deciding who's advise to follow and need a plan to follow that advise. 

3) You don't even realize how many tools you have at your disposal but are failing to make use of them. "It was pointed out my dog has no enthusiasm for playing or paying attention with me." "Maybe I should do more as I know my dog enjoys it more than traveling to the city for walks." The latter is known as adventure training. It is one of the best foundational bond builders. DO IT!!! Just you and him. Don't have to do it all of the time or for long periods of time. Once a week for an hour or two should help you build a powerful bond full of engagement.

I live in he county side. So Finn regularly has these walks off leash. At a guess probably for an hour around 5 times a week , coupled with these "adventure" walks he has at least one structured walk each day with a goal in mind , cities. Challenging environments e.t.c. So the two daily walks are just me and Finn. 

3rd and Final walk will be a joint walk with Evie. 


4) ALWAYS start with the least aversive method possible and work your way up. You have been given plenty of advice for aversion free solutions. Pick one method and apply it. It will take time and commitment on your part. I think I gave a fairly detailed outline of what I would do in a prior post. If you have questions or need more specifics, please ask. I don't believe I suggested removing him from a situation but removing your female dog. More importantly, what do you mean that he amps up and "is a danger to himself"? Why are you relinquishing your control of this puppy to him? He doesn't call the shots. You do. His life depends on YOU taking control of the situation. Out of curiosity, does your sliplead have a tab on it? Just where is it positioned on his neck?

I completely agree with this statement and it's what I do... 

"ALWAYS start with the least aversive method possible and work your way up. "

As for removing Evie , it's s massive trigger and it will amp him up into the worst state possible. There is nothing that will trigger him as much as this. 






Most importantly, have a clear picture of what exactly is the terminal response that you hope to achieve. Is it realistic? Keep coming back and adjusting this picture if necessary as you progress. Be willing to put in time.

Finn is pretty much where I want him at the moment. He's great apart from one thing my other dog . He needs to learn to turn off his excitement when he's on a walk with Evie or redirect at something appropriate, balls, games , whatever. 

My only expection at the moment is for Finn to treat my own dog with the same respect he treats other dogs out and about.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Here's what I would do if the dogs were here with me.
> 
> I would put a slip lead on Finn and work leash pressure until he respected the leash. No movement, just standing still. No commands. Just leash pressure. I would add Evie and work closer to her using just leash pressure and social pressure. When that is successful, we would go for a walk. Same techniques. Respect the leash and maintain sanity.
> 
> ...


I feel this will work with Finn. 

For the time being it's just about managing Finn when he's in that state . 

I think the key to solving this is, as you said is learning impulse control. When he's excited and slowly building it up. 

Lots of learning to do and finding a resource with clear steps to follow.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> If you don't want to go the aversive route, WL's solution about having him lie down when he goes after Evie sounds like a good one. A dog should be in a calmer frame of mind when lying down. I would keep him in the down until he calms. Go back and watch the video David posted, where the dog is just out of its mind when it sees another dog, but eventually calms. I've been in training situations like that, where BOTH dogs were dog-reactive, and by the end of the class, the trainer had them lying in a down about 8 feet apart!
> 
> My dog was the better of the two, as I'd already done a lot of work with her with the 'look at me' exercise I described previously.
> 
> The other solution is to just stop walking them together. He's become fixated on Evie as his source of entertainment, and that's got to stop. He should not be body-slamming her when they are playing off leash, either.



Thanks. I would love to be able to be able to put him in a down when he's getting amped up and have him to be able to control his impulses and calm . 

I think it will probably solve the issue completely. I just I need knowledge how to build upto this.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This is all well and good. David Winners is the best of the best and you can't go wrong taking his advice.

I think you have made some good decisions but let me suggest something. Take him somewhere new and exciting for his adventure training, different parks and different trails. Monotony is boring and comes at a price of disengagement.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is all well and good. David Winners is the best of the best and you can't go wrong taking his advice.
> 
> I think you have made some good decisions but let me suggest something. Take him somewhere new and exciting for his adventure training, different parks and different trails. Monotony is boring and comes at a price of disengagement.



Of course, I live in Scotland. I have an no shortage of new and wonderful places to explore around me. 

Although most days i stay local as I don't like taking one dog out much than an hour and a half. I always feel guilty about that , when I have one dog home alone. . 

It's not really an issue are lots to places to go to that's within s 15 to 20 min drive. 

I can't wait until the problem gets better and me and the two dogs can explore the whole of Scotland together. Will be great not having time constraints and not constantly watching the clock, thinking it's time to get home for the other dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I will look for some decent video resources. I wish I had a dog here with these issues right now to shoot some video.

Best of the best is a heck of a stretch there MAWL.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I will look for some decent video resources. I wish I had a dog here with these issues right now to shoot some video.
> 
> Best of the best is a heck of a stretch there MAWL.


Haha take mine !!! 

Thank you , any resources and a point in the right direction would be great.

So have I've got, power of tug , the videos you and others have recommended and I'm also really interested in the book MAWL suggested .


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I will look for some decent video resources. I wish I had a dog here with these issues right now to shoot some video.
> 
> Best of the best is a heck of a stretch there MAWL.


David, if I ever get stumped, you would be one of my first go-to people if the small potatoes can't figure it out. Besides, I am still planning on sending the boy to you so that you can teach him those forward somersaults. 😁


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

While it's not super specific to this application, I really recommend Excel-Erated Learning.





__





Excel-Erated Learning: Explaining in Plain English How Dogs Learn and How Best to Teach Them


Shared via Kindle. Description: Great news for those of you who have wanted to read a book that explains animal learning in a manner that is easily understood and entertaining. With the freedom of understanding 'how your dog learns' comes the ability of mak...




read.amazon.com


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

David Winners said:


> While it's not super specific to this application, I really recommend Excel-Erated Learning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. I've just downloaded it and will get stuck into it right away. 


I've been been looking at other books and consideration what to learn from. When I've read the book you've suggested. Recommendations what to move onto? 

The first was recommended to me but I can't find a digital copy on Amazon UK (my preference). 









Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition: Amazon.co.uk: Booth, Sheila: 9780966302004: Books


Buy Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition Illustrated by Booth, Sheila (ISBN: 9780966302004) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.



www.amazon.co.uk





Second is by the same author. Apparently it's an older version or that book or very similar principles. Although I could be wrong. This one I can get for Kindle so it would be more convenient in that respect. 









Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive: Amazon.co.uk: Booth, Sheila: 9780966302028: Books


Buy Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive by Booth, Sheila (ISBN: 9780966302028) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.



www.amazon.co.uk





Or is there something else I should be looking at? 


Sorry to be a hastle.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

@Loki.777 You are not in any way being a hassle.

Anyone looking to figure out how to handle their dog better is definitely not a hassle.

One thing I would recommend keeping in mind is @David Winners is a very experienced dog handler. Things he can do in two or three 30 minute sessions might take new handlers several weeks as we learn to read the dog, think about how to react to what the dog is doing, and then finally react appropriately at the right time.

As you work through the issue with pup. Please be sure to spend plenty of time playing with your pup. The time invested will pay you back 10 fold by improving your ability to read and react to your dog and his engagement with you.

Just like in humans. Teaching someone something new is relatively easy. Helping them to break bad habits is exhausting for everyone involved.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

MAWL: AWWWW!!! I have a real soft spot for black puppies, for some reason!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> MAWL: AWWWW!!! I have a real soft spot for black puppies, for some reason!


Thanks but that's a Mal, not a GSD.


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## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

So a bit of an update. I've finished that book execel - erated learning. It's nice to have a deeper understanding of learning. 

Moved on to , purely positive, companion to competition. It's not bad so far, I've mainly got it for a different perspective. The main think I want to take out of it is increasing relationship and bond . 

As for th bratty behaviour that's undercontol and heading in the right direction. 

At the start I took him for a walk, and controlled him with leash pressure. The lesson was more for my own confidence rather than a lesson for him. 

Wasn't pretty and he had his crazy moments but I one every time. Now I was able to relax and be more calm while dealing with the behaviour. 

Been a few weeks and it's not happened again. I must admit I've been using a ball as a pacifier (him holding it in his mouth). He's at the point he doesn't really need the ball, but I'm keeping it there for the moment. 

As time is going on he's paying more and more attention to me and not really caring that my other dog is there. 

Obviously we are not out of the woods yet but we are definitely heading in the right direction. 


The other night he lost his ball and I didn't even realise. We walked a bit and I noticed he was becoming anxious. Then realized he had lost his ball. 

I know it sounds like a silly think but this was a huge milestone. If he had lost his ball/didn't have a ball in his mouth , he would have went mental and attacked my other dog a few weeks ago . I was really pleased about that. 

Definitely doing something right.


Thank you everyone.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Loki.777 said:


> So a bit of an update. I've finished that book execel - erated learning. It's nice to have a deeper understanding of learning.
> 
> Moved on to , purely positive, companion to competition. It's not bad so far, I've mainly got it for a different perspective. The main think I want to take out of it is increasing relationship and bond .
> 
> ...


Nice, keep it up!


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