# working line, showline..confused



## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Hi Guys. As I'm new to GSD world. I feel pretty confused about working line dog or show dog. For instance, If I'm looking for a good guard dog and a good companion, which line am I supposed to pick? What are these terms for? Like west german lines, checzh lines, east german lines, american lines, show lines. As fas as I understand, best companion dogs are showline dogs right, if I'm wrong please correct me. I know lots of GSD people extremely familiar with these terms, but people like me, new comers aren't I guess. Would someone help me to understand these terms and how these effect to pick a puppy? Thanks.


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## tibvixie101 (Nov 26, 2007)

Hi and Welcome to the Board!

Im no pro at the lines either, but from what i gather working line dogs are very high energy and have a lot of drive to work. These dogs can make great home companions but, like all GSD's require ALOT of excersise, mentally and physically. When trying to find a puppy that will best suit you and your needs, its best to talk to a few different breeders with different lines in their dogs. Ask them questions, and tell them what you plan to do with your pup when it grows up (home companion, SAR, Agility, Shultzhund, tracking, etc.) Most good, reputable breeders will help you in picking the right pup for you. Remember they want their pup to go to the best home possible as well, so if they ask you a lot of questions, they're not prying, they just want to make sure theire making a proper match. Im sure others will be able to chime in with differences on the exact lines and what their suitable for.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

You might start here.
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

I just asked this same question in the breeder section - the moderator (Chris - thanks!) posted this link that was a big help.

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/articles/gsdtypes.html


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Thank u all.


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## Romance (Apr 16, 2007)

I refuse to sell my pups to anyone looking for guard dogs. I live in a province where the government bans entire breeds for being aggressive. My dog's temperments are not bred for guard work. I have show lines.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: VALIUMAs fas as I understand, best companion dogs are showline dogs right, if I'm wrong please correct me. I know lots of .


I disagree. The best companion dog is a well bred dog. I have working line GSD's and they are great companions as well as working dogs. With the working lines the priority is on temperament and conformation is secondary. Those are my priorities as well.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

If you are new enough to not yet know differences in lines, don't make any choices yet. Research will take time, visits to clubs, obedience classes, trials, shows, groups and competitions of all kinds-- so you can meet the dogs in person, and decide what you DON'T want to live with.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I have working line dogs and they make great companions!


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

> Quote:The best companion dog is a well bred dog


Perfectly said Chris!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: chruby
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: VALIUMAs fas as I understand, best companion dogs are showline dogs right, if I'm wrong please correct me. I know lots of .
> ...


I have to disagree with PART of your post. I don't think workingline dogs are bred for structure secondarily (if that isnt a word it is now). To have a working dog the structure HAS to be correct. It might not win in the show ring BUT the dogs are still bred to have the correct structure to do the job that they were originally bred for which is herding sheep & protection work. They are not bred for the flying trot or to gait around a ring all day. They are bred to work all day and a dog with incorrect strucure is not going to be able to work all day. 

But the rest I totally agree with.







<as I look at the 4 working dogs that are crashed around my living room as I get ready for work>


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: chruby
> ...


Well if you go back and look at the "original" GSD when it was a new breed years ago, it sure looks different in conformation 
than today's showline dogs. The working line dogs of today are closer in structure to the original GSD, IMHO.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: chrubyWell if you go back and look at the "original" GSD when it was a new breed years ago, it sure looks different in conformation
> than today's showline dogs. The working line dogs of today are closer in structure to the original GSD, IMHO.


Ahhh but the GSD does have to be at least somewhat conformationally correct or else it wouldn't look like a GSD, would it?









No argument from me about how the GSD used to look and how it looks in the showring now. It's certainly changed a bit. Personally, I feel that has more to do with the judges' preferences rather than an actual change in the standard. Especially since the AKC and FCI standards vary little in writing.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Quote:Well if you go back and look at the "original" GSD when it was a new breed years ago, it sure looks different in conformation
> than today's showline dogs. The working line dogs of today are closer in structure to the original GSD, IMHO.


I agree there too.







I personally think that working/ddr/czech lines look more like the original dogs than the show lines today. Butof course that is JMO and is not intended to be disrespectful to any show line people. We all have our preferences.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

"Form follows Function" - Frank Lloyd Wright

What is "correct"?? If the animal can physically stay sound and do what you want - then it is correct. There are differences in structure according to "type". I tend to call it what is in fashion rather than using the word correct.

Lee


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum"Form follows Function" - Frank Lloyd Wright
> 
> What is "correct"?? If the animal can physically stay sound and do what you want - then it is correct. There are differences in structure according to "type". I tend to call it what is in fashion rather than using the word correct.
> 
> Lee


Good point Lee.







What is in fashion, hmmmmm.....now I really don't think that is putting workability first......







Plus breeding what is in fashion is disqualifying LOTS of good working line dogs with decent conformation. JMHO


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

removed due to board violation.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

quote removed due to violation of board rules

Ditto


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

????


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## greg dejanes (Aug 29, 2007)

If you plan to do Schutzund go 100% east german lines. Not American show lines. You can still have a good family dog. He will need attention and lots of activity.
German show or High lines can give you some decent working ability. Can be very good family campanions and still have the instinct and nerve to protect.
Am. lines are a risk. You may get weak nerves, very little working ability. It could still be a family pet though. May be better to get a Golden retriever.
You could get a mix of lines. My dog who is about 50% working lines 40 % German high lines and 10 % Am show lines seems to be a well rounded choice for me.
It is just my opinion and like you I am new with GSDs. I would NOT get an American showlines dog if you want a real German Shepherd Dog.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

A true GSD is bred to be able to work. The GSD was never intended to look pretty trotting around the ring. With good working structure, intelligence, drive, and good aggression, it will end up looking beautiful in the ring because that is the true beauty of the GSD- a dog that can be expected to do anything and do it well.

I do agree that people who want a lower activity dog without the aggression should go with a golden or other breed. There is a difference between bad aggression and good aggression; this breed is not intended to be a love-everyone lab, nor is it ever intended to be a junkyard dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Diana,
I think your sumation is onpoint, I will say that this perception/projection by many of the GS as this high activity, hard to settle dog as being a correct shepherd temperament is just as faulty as the pretty show shepherd dog with Golden temperament. They both are creations of the last 30 years of erroneous breeding for specialty. Remeber, the showlines dogs used to also be competiton dogs. VA dogs before 1980 produced both other VA dogs and BSP dogs regularly. Top competition/police people went to top VA litters to get dogs that would compete nationally and or work professionally(police/military). Were these dogs weak tempered with Golden/Lab temperaments...NO! ; Were these dogs super high activity dogs that were difficult to settle or manage by regular families....NO! The advent of the decline of the show temperament correlates with the exclusive color requirement to show successfully, and the over active GS that show/regular people lament, came with the overemphasis and line/inbreeding for over the top prey drive. Both are wrong and detrimental to true shepherd function/creation. The sadness is that now most people only know the breed as one or the other and since THEY are the experts they continue to breed and insist these types of dogs are CORRECT!...JMO


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

What's scary is when someone is breeding dogs with extremes. It is just as much a challenge today to find a workingline dog who can think before hair-trigger reacting, as it is to find a showline dog who has the nerves to walk up a metal-grating set of stairs. Is it impossible? Not at all-- but in both cases, it takes some shopping around. 

I know sane workingline companion dogs with reliable minds, and I know unflappable working West German showline dogs. But for the newcomer, it takes some time to wade through the ads for extremes on both ends to find that golden middle that people into extremes say they do not want.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: greg dejanes If you plan to do Schutzund go 100% east german lines. Not American show lines.


If you want to do SchH, yes working lines are best. But I certainly wouldn't limit it to *East German * working lines. Wondering if this poster realizes that there are different subsets of working lines, of which East German is just one of many.

Any of the working lines will suffice, and which is best comes down to personal preference. Predominantly east german working lines are often not the best dogs for novices, as their quirks can present some additional hurdles in training and they can take a long time to develop compared to the western European working lines.


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## Romance (Apr 16, 2007)

removed due to board violations


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Just like all working lines are not hair trigger, quick-to-bite dogs, neither are all show lines weak nerved.

My champion male loves people, and loves being the center of attention (not exactly what you would call aloof). And while he has never had to bite anybody, he has protected me in a real life situation. He also showed impecable judgement when I fell showing him at a dog show and got a concussion. He allowed a person he barely knew to take him while the paramedics were helping me, and even went with them back to my van since DH rode in the ambulance with me. He then spent the next 8 weeks being my service dog. He climbs all sorts of stairs and rides elevators, walks on all kinds of floors, and will do a "down-stay" on the grooming table while I go to the ladies room. 

And yet many of you would say that because I choose not to participate in your dog sport then I shouldn't be breeding German Shepherd Dogs. Many of you who are the most vocal are neither breeders nor long-term GSD owners. And yet you are very judgemental of those who don't see things the same way you do.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

COME ON EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!









You know better on this site. We all have our favorite flavor of GSD and good reasons for that. Let's remember to say all of the GOOD stuff about the dogs we like *WITHOUT *also slamming the flavor of dog we do not prefer. 

I personally prefer the working lines, but for first time GSD owners think the AKC showlines have temperments that are much easier to raise and fit into a normal home.....


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Enough of the attacks or this whole thread will be locked and/or deleted. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally would not attempt to do schutzhund with an ambred. I own one, she's 11 (spayed) and is a fear biter. She's one of the sneaky ones, lick you one second, bite you the next. My next dog was 1/2 ddr and 1/2 showline. Ok, but not for schutzhund. That's when I converted to working lines. 

I've had gsd's for over 30 years, and been breeding for 5 or 6 years now. 

I'm sure there are good ambreds that could prob. do schutzhund, I've just never seen them. But even in working lines, you'll get nerve bags just like am breds or showlines. genetics is genetics and it will happen. No different than humans. How many of us have grown up either in families or knew of families where there was 1 rotten egg in the bunch? Doesn't mean the whole family was crap, just the 1 person.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Quote: I know sane workingline companion dogs with reliable minds, and I know unflappable working West German showline dogs. But for the newcomer, it takes some time to wade through the ads for extremes on both ends to find that golden middle that people into extremes say they do not want.


Well said Patti









I agree with Chris the western European working-lines & Breeders in N. America are going to be best place to find a Good Companion GSD. 

Now, I Love the High-lines for the "*eye appeal*", and if you know the bloodlines Working Ability can be had. (lots of home work is needed).

But, there are a lot of crooks out there, and the High-lines are were the money is, and you run the larger risk of been taken, Like a 10 to 1 ratio, of good breeders to bad.

Remember: No good Breeder is going to sell you the best in the Litter, maybe a Co-ownership if you are in sport/show.
A Good working-line Breeder is looking for the drive, so whats not best for them is going to be a Good Companion GSD.
A Good High-line Breeder will have a lot of long-coats, and this is were you will find a Good Companion GSD also.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Quote: If you plan to do Schutzund go 100% east german lines. NSNIP
> You could get a mix of lines. My dog who is about 50% working lines 40 % German high lines and 10 % Am show lines seems to be a well rounded choice for me.
> <u>_*It is just my opinion and like you I am new with GSDs.*_</u> I would NOT get an American showlines dog if you want a real German Shepherd Dog.



Herein lies the danger of the internet. This is not a personal attack HONEST!! I removed the name as it is a general response to many many many other posts on every board out there. It is a response to what actually typifies so many posters who feel qualified to tell someone what they should do. Someone who has their first GSD, who has NOT DONE SCHUTZHUND - IE TITLED the dog - telling someone what to buy for the sport.

Opinions are fine...if they don't go beyond personal experience only based on what someone has ACTUALLY done. But if you have NOT HAD the different types, worked with the different types, and gone out there in heat, cold, rain, snow, week after week after week, you should not be making statement telling people what to do. So many people can read and disseminate information, but they do not have hands on experience. 

My feeling is that you have to look at the experience of the person giving the information to judge whether it is really what you need to heed.

And seriously, I am not trying to slam any one individual - this statement is just illustration. 

Lee


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Yes Lee, good Point









Oh I hope this thumbs up does not get deleted, like the last one I gave









Sorry Joker!!!


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

There was a time in the 50s many American showlines had parents that had schutzhund titles, even some that had a ROM and a SchH title at the same time! There was a time in the 60s and early 70s when VA dogs did well in the BSP and BSP dogs could get a VA in the BSZS. At that time, you also had real herding GSDs that worked everyday herding 300 sheep singlehandedly that were bred to BSP and VA dogs. These were all GSDs that could live in normal homes with little children and went off-leash with the kids to wait at the school bus stop. This was also the time when the U.S. military used 3,000 GSDs throughout the Vietnam War, almost all of them American bred. Then what happened?


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Ocean

Thats the GSD that I remember that my Parents were breeding here in Canada in the early 60's, the same dogs that cliftonanderson1 is always talking about.

The dogs were black and tan, we showed them in the CKC, and sold young dogs to the local police!


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## Romance (Apr 16, 2007)

What was the kennel name so i can look them up?
pm it if you don't want to post it


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: AndakaAnd yet many of you would say that because I choose not to participate in your dog sport then I shouldn't be breeding German Shepherd Dogs. Many of you who are the most vocal are neither breeders nor long-term GSD owners. And yet you are very judgemental of those who don't see things the same way you do.


I am vocal, and I am not a breeder. I have only personally owned a GSD for just over 10 years. My Father handled a GSD in Vietnam, and was a K-9 cop for the railroad when he came home. I grew up around working GSD's when I was much younger. The GSD is my breed of choice, and in my opinion the best that the canine species has to offer when bred properly. Here is the disconnect Andaka... the breeders that participate in SchH do not just consider it a sport. They rely on it heavily for it's original purpose - breed evaluation. Herding accomplishes the same purpose. The only way to KNOW what you have in a dog is to test it. Agility and AKC obedience titles at least prove a dogs merit although to a lesser degree. At least in that case a breeder is TESTING SOMETHING other than how the dog looks running in a circle. With all of that said, it does not mean you are not breeding stable animals, and you may have an extremely well balanced clear headed stud who is a very good specimine of the breed. But knowing what I know now, when I evaluate an animal that will possibly grow to be over 70 pounds of power and grace that will live with my family for the next 12+ years (hopefully) I want more assurance than "his Dad looked great when he gaited in a circle". Geniuses are born and rise to success in the Ghetto from broken homes with dysfunctional families every day, but the percentages are against it. Putting a dog under pressure and training using all of the dogs natural instincts is how you KNOW if they are breed worthy. That is all we are trying to say (I think!).


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## Romance (Apr 16, 2007)

what i mean is can you give some pedigree info or the lines that your parents bred?...doesn't have to be the actual kennel name.


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## Romance (Apr 16, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AndakaAnd yet many of you would say that because I choose not to participate in your dog sport then I shouldn't be breeding German Shepherd Dogs. Many of you who are the most vocal are neither breeders nor long-term GSD owners. And yet you are very judgemental of those who don't see things the same way you do.
> ...


but again that is only your opinion. It is the same opinion that all you working line people keep saying. OK we show line people understand your opinion, but it doesn't give you the right to bash our dogs or our lines.
I happen to dissagree with you. IMO there are other ways of testing your dog besides schH. but again it's my opinion.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RomanceIMO there are other ways of testing your dog besides schH. but again it's my opinion.


Maybe this is a different topic but I'll bite - educate me. What other ways are there to test your dogs to see if they are breed worthy?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

MODERATOR SPEAKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



> Quote: we show line people understand your opinion, but it doesn't give you the right to bash our dogs or our lines.


No one is supposed to bash ANYONE on this site. And if posters see any such 'bashing' and retaliate themselves, everyone gets warned and banned and can no longer post. It doesn't matter who starts it or ends it, STOP IT and let the Moderators deal with it.

Each and every one of these posts has a option at the bottom of it that says 'Notify' and you can notify the moderators of that specific forum. Additionally, you can start mass PM'ing the ones of us that may be online specifically so we can deal with a problem.

Remember, we do not have to all agree on everything, how boring would that be? But we DO have to be POLITE.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Romance
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD Here is the disconnect Andaka... the breeders that participate in SchH do not just consider it a sport. They rely on it heavily for it's original purpose - breed evaluation. Herding accomplishes the same purpose. The only way to KNOW what you have in a dog is to test it. Agility and AKC obedience titles at least prove a dogs merit although to a lesser degree.
> ...


Yes, there are. I specifically mentioned herding, agility and obedience above. You are making my point by saying it, and I can see you value breed evaluation tools by looking at the basic temperament testing you've done on your dogs.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Funny Maggie

Romance bashed my dog, post was removed see above.

Stated he was no better then her dogs.

He has many line-breedings on some of most Influential dogs from Europe known for "Working Ability" In The German Conformation Lines.
His fathers line is one the best from the Netherlands. (bloodlines that can work)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Alright, enough. The OP got some info to help them figure out the differences, and if they need more than another thread should be started. 

This one is just deteriorating into people sniping at each other.

If people *seriously* want to start the never ending Show vs Working debate again, or discuss what titles/certificates/whatevers they consider suitable for determining breedworthiness in GSDs, then start new threads about it.

I'm closing this down. 

Admin


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