# Does anyone else get a bit disturbed at "experimental breed' trend?



## DJGinger (Jun 5, 2013)

In the old days they were called OOPS. 
Like it wasn't bad enough that accidental breeding that the pup "looked: right were sold as pure?

But now if both parents were papered they can try to claim they were attempting a new breed..specially a "service breed." Papers and websites call then "experimental breeds"

When already hundreds of Labradoodles that do not get proper training and get homed as service animals go to pounds...
new breeds:
Dobesheps and German Shepherd /Giant Schnauzer. New breeds for BYB trying to trick unwary into buying and leftovers discarded.

Labradoodles cashed in on "hypoallergenic" Poodle belief. Nope... I am very allergic to most water dogs and labradoodles also affect me. Bzzzt. But fail to mention grooming needs double from normal popular service breeds. 

Though many breeds have intelligence, few breeds can fill the shoes as service dogs of Shepherds, Retrievers and Dobermans as good all round service trainable dogs because their trainability, drive, size and stable breed temperments (in spite of overbreeding problems beig corrected this decade).
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Frankly IMHO new breeds are not needed. Repairing old breeds is. AKC recognizes currently 400? unless it is something antique found with some lost tribe or small village breeding true... is honestly anything more needed?

Should the Panda Shepherd gene mutation be recognized as a GSD and breedable with? Only to cause some kind of disaster like VwB? Should it be allowed as a separate breed..unlike a white shepherd which is considered a fault in AKC but is simply masking... wouldn't a spotting gene undo generations of work?

Shepherd mixes? Already there are many allowable mixes of different type breeds... Years ago I would have thought of dutch shepherds as separate breed from same root stock. I see dilutions now, and brindles. What was wrong with the original colors?

Our new GSD is for my son's service so what titling she earns will all be agility/tracking..but it is nice her weight , size and confirmation could pass.
My fiance has a papered home grown Polish born Alsatian. He looks more GSD than the dutchies do. Just got a funny nose.

Even "oversize". Why on earth with animals prone to hip and back disorders would they want the weight almost doubled. One kennel up north has animals as large as deerhounds! 0_0 Pretty but wow.

Our previous service dog was fixed because she was oversize Dobie (a female over 100 #) yet I see others advertising this is good dog! Yet is 30-50# over breed weight! because they have papers with a CH like 6 generations back. Are there any papered animals that wouldn't have one that far back before the prevalence of profit breeding. I havent been to a dog show since 1981. I gather a lot of changes came.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Although I do agree with you, I think people need to take some responsibility, do their own research, and not be so gullible. We see the same thing happening with products all the time. The new latest greatest product hits shelves but it's basically just a spin-off of what already exists in different packaging.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

DJGinger said:


> AKC recognizes currently 400?


Nope, only 175.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/index.cfm


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Personally I have no problem with purpose bred mixes as long as its done responsibly. It is pretty common with working herding dogs (good workers are bred to good workers) same as with Alaskan huskies, also seems to be pretty common for military/police to be mixing GSDs and mals again good workers being bred to good workers. I personally feel like dogs bred with health and desirable temperament as the driving factor are far more likely to be successful than dogs that have are being bred because they closely fit a breed standard that everyone is going to interpret differently. I kind of find it snobby that people turn their noses up and shame them as "mutts" who cares? If you want a pure bred dog than don't get a mix. I know I will get flamed because there are so many dogs in shelters but plenty of those are pure bred or are from oops breedings. I also know plenty of sport mixes and most of them are great dogs that are exactly what the handlers wanted and its pretty rare for dogs from these breedings to be ending up in shelters. Most people breeding sport mixes have long waiting lists and the puppies are normally all spoken for the moment they are born. 

Someone with no knowledge and only money in mind breeding german shepherds mixed with schnauzers is IMO no worse than the same person breeding two GSDs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with Kristi. Maybe the Doodles have their place....I don't know since it's not a breed/mix I'm interested in so I've never looked into it. It's not like everyone breeding purebred dogs is a saint of a breeder!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I agree with Kristi. Maybe the Doodles have their place....I don't know since it's not a breed/mix I'm interested in


What is the deal with these Doodles? Personally I have never met a sane one but I get called for problem cases. So far the poodle in these mixes has been the common denominator.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anything with "doodle" or "poo" its name is still a mutt.
Yeah, I said it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree with Kristi.

Whatever floats ones boat. Doesn't affect me I don't want to live with a doodle,schnoodle whatever.

People are going to do what people are going to do.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> What is the deal with these Doodles? Personally I have never met a sane one but I get called for problem cases. So far the poodle in these mixes has been the common denominator.


There are a lot of nice ones out there. When I taught CGC/CLASS prep and tricks classes in my very yuppie-fied neighborhood (i.e., the kinds of classes that attract above-average pet owners who don't have problem dogs), I'd see a lot of owners come in with perfectly sweet, bright, charming doodles. I also have a lot of friends who have purchased these dogs and, for the most part, they've turned out to be pleasant, easygoing pets (albeit sometimes ones that took a fair amount of work on the owners' part to get there). So they're not _all_ crazy.

From what I've seen, most of the owners are people who want happy-go-lucky, moderately active, friendly companion dogs that don't shed but don't have the stereotypical image/personality that they associate with purebred poodles. They're doing their best to research decent breeders (not always easy in doodles, since not many good breeders are producing them; usually buying one of these dogs means buying from the best BYB you can find), and it seems like they're mostly getting good-to-decent pet dogs.

So, you know, it's not my thing, but I don't see it as a huge disaster for dogdom either. Not many doodles end up in rescue, and the ones that do always get adopted within hours of hitting Petfinder.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

KristiM said:


> Personally I have no problem with purpose bred mixes as long as its done responsibly. It is pretty common with working herding dogs (good workers are bred to good workers) same as with Alaskan huskies, also seems to be pretty common for military/police to be mixing GSDs and mals again good workers being bred to good workers. I personally feel like dogs bred with health and desirable temperament as the driving factor are far more likely to be successful than dogs that have are being bred because they closely fit a breed standard that everyone is going to interpret differently. I kind of find it snobby that people turn their noses up and shame them as "mutts" who cares? If you want a pure bred dog than don't get a mix. I know I will get flamed because there are so many dogs in shelters but plenty of those are pure bred or are from oops breedings. I also know plenty of sport mixes and most of them are great dogs that are exactly what the handlers wanted and its pretty rare for dogs from these breedings to be ending up in shelters. Most people breeding sport mixes have long waiting lists and the puppies are normally all spoken for the moment they are born.
> 
> Someone with no knowledge and only money in mind breeding german shepherds mixed with schnauzers is IMO no worse than the same person breeding two GSDs.


I think this is a great post! Now that I think of it, when I was doing Flyball I heard the instructor mention someone who was intentionally breeding mixes specifically for Flyball dogs. She was someone who was very active and competitive in the sport. That makes perfect sense to me. I never thought about it from that perspective before.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I see a doodle mix (I think-it doesn't look all poodle) service dog in my neighborhood. I'm sure they fill a niche for SOMETHING.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have a friend who has three Aussie Doodles. She does lots of sports with her dogs and they are well trained and well behaved. Again, not my cup of tea but she must like what the breeder produces. They are like the normal Doodle except their curls are velvety soft. I was holding one in flyball and wanted to bury my face in his fur!


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## DuncanIdaho (May 14, 2013)

If you look back at how a lot of breeds started it was more for temperment/ ability than looks. Like in the ABCA for Border Collies. There isn't really a breed standard on looks as much as personality traits. Just remember that all of the recognized breeds today started as mutts. I don't see a problem with people breeding for ability rather than for breed as long as they are responsible breeders. Back when I was a kid and we had horses we had a Blue heeler/ border collie mix. Great dog. She was perfect for what we needed. I've also known a lot of duck hunters crossing Labs with Chesapeake Bays because they end up with a stronger dog with a better cold weather coat. Its all in what you need the dogs for.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Anything with "doodle" or "poo" its name is still a mutt.
> Yeah, I said it.


and soon to hit the designer dog market...Poodle/Great Dane 

otherwise known as "A Great Poo"!!!:laugh:


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

The only thing that annoys me is the insane prices they charge for something that is, like you said, experimental. I pay the big bucks for the final product, not something no where near completion. 

But I approve of the idea of creating dog breeds for more modern lifestyles. It's better than people getting working dogs that don't suit their lifestyle just because they really wanted a dog, and then choosing to give their dog to a shelter because it was a poor fit.


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## breyer08 (Jul 4, 2012)

It doesn't bother me if people want to get a "fancy" breed, as some like to call them. But I will say that every Labradoodle I've ever met has been completely high-strung, and most of them have not been very easy to train. I also find it very interesting that almost every owner of these dogs has told me that their breeders assured them that the dogs would be on the small-medium size, and yet--big shocker--every single one of them ended up enormous! My parents have recently been talking about getting a "small- to medium-sized" dog and they mentioned Labradoodles as their top choice because they are "hypoallergenic" and "even-tempered." I suppose someone's Labradoodle must be, for these stereotypes to exist, but I have yet to meet one!


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

I like the big dogs like gsds, huskies and other dogs that get mixed with corgis. Its like having a purebred but have really short legs. It makes me laugh .

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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Hopefully my funny stubby legged mixed dogs are bred responsibly. I prefer responsible breeding . just wanted to be clear. 

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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> and soon to hit the designer dog market...Poodle/Great Dane
> 
> otherwise known as "A Great Poo"!!!:laugh:


:spittingcoffee:



Not disturbed by designer breeds, to each his own I guess.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> and soon to hit the designer dog market...Poodle/Great Dane
> 
> otherwise known as "A Great Poo"!!!:laugh:


Not to be confused with the Giant Schnauzer/Poodle combo, a.k.a. Giant Poo!:wild:


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I work for a vet who refuses to acknowledge the cutsie name that mixed breeds come with. So if you say you have a maltipoo- she writes Maltese / poodle cross. It's funny. 


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Not to be confused with the Giant Schnauzer/Poodle combo, a.k.a. Giant Poo!:wild:


LOL:laugh:

My cousin has a "Shih T"zu/York"ie" cross - they call it a _____


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

We could always argue this would be a fantastic designer breed, the Bullshepherd!
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...sd-english-bulldog-cross-would-look-like.html


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

I'm okay with it...if there's a valid reason for the "experiment" and not just for a certain look.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I don't understand it. I wouldn't want one. I crossed races with my human son. That was a Love deal. Still, I don't understand crossing dogs. Maybe I'm stupid. Pretty sure I'm not. 


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sometimes it is a necessity . Dalmations' spotting gene is linked to a metabolic problem which develops high uric acid and kidney stones . With much hot debate the kennel club allowed the stud books to be opened and I believe a English pointer? , was introduced into the gene bank . Dogs with the spotting gene , absent of the metabolic problem were then bred back in . Basically the "breed" was saved.

"Breed" is artificial concept born of the post-Victorian era. 
Even GSD's origins in the use of 4 developed distinct types each fitting the definition of a loose breed were brought into one created super dog - GSD .


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I guess I have mixed feelings. Where would the purebred dog world be today without people who intermixed various breeds or types of dogs to develop a new breed? 

My problem is that the so called "designer dog breeders" don't seem to want to develop these mixes into a new breed, they're happy continuing to bred two different breeds to deliberately create mutts (aka designer dogs).


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

my problem, as others have said, is that isn't an "end goal" for many of these breeders. The origiinal labradoodle DID have a purpose - hypoallergenic service dogs. A lofty goal and he worked hard to try to achieve that. Now he wishes that he had never started the idea.
Yes, the original idea was for a hypoallergenic, even-tempered dog of medium size that would be used as a assistance animal. However, 99.9999% of the breeders out there just breed a lab and a poodle and sell puppies for a lot of money. And, seeing the type of breeder that we are dealing with, they are of course not using the finest specimens to begin with.
They don't care what kind of poodle - some use minis, some use toys, some use standards. They tout the dogs as disease free due to "hybrid vigor" and of course hypoallergenic.

I've met labradoodles that range from 25lbs to 75lbs. I've met some that have a poodle coat, some that have a lab coat and some that have some weird mix of poodle overcoat with the undercoat of a lab. That dog blew coat like a lab while requiring regular haircuts like a poodle. :/

I've met a few that were really nice and sweet but all of them have been high energy. Most of them were also very high-strung. Many were a bit nervy but I don't know if that was a genetic trait, a training/socialization issue or a combo of the two.

I don't think I've ever seen a single labradoodle (or any -doodle) that was a second generation. Or know of anyone outside the original founders who attempt it. I'm sure that someone, somewhere is probably trying. They are just lost in the overwhelming flux of people cashing in on a lie


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

What Kristi said. 

As long as health and temperament aren't being ignored, I don't take issue with it. I do flyball and they do a lot of specialty mixes that are geared toward their sport like Border-Whippets etc.

Labradoodles, I think I object to the name more than anything. It sounds stupid to me, but they wanted to combine two intelligent breeds who were good family dogs, with the reduced allergen factor of the poodle for people needing service dogs who had allergy issues. (There are three coat types that can result of that breeding, the curly one is the most hypoallergenic of the three) So I can understand and get behind that, but it's when people who haven't got a clue start breeding them that I get a bit worried about things.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

My kid's therapist has a "LabraDoodle" and she is a trained and certified therapy dog, and a fantastic dog at that! I'm not terribly fond of the looks of the breed, but she is softer than soft! My kids love it when they are upset, because she truly is a mellow, quiet grounding force, but when they wanna play, well, sometimes she doesn't play ball fairly! LOL! That's about the only "complaint" I have!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm more worried about puppy farms and people breeding pure breeds to extremes without any complaint from the kennel clubs than I am about new designer crossbreeds. Seems like the KC does register puppy farms and does little to stop inbreeding and genetic issues in pure breeds.

In general I think there is a lack of education about breeds and where they came from. 
People should refer to designer breeds as cross breeds and not try to create new breeds just because the name is catchy.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

One thing I've always wondered and maybe someone can shed some light is why the Labradoodle was created in the first place. What was it from both breeds that someone felt needed to be combined? If poodles are hypoallergenic, intelligent, and good family dogs, why did the Lab need to be introduced. I think someone mentioned that the original intent was to create a service dog so what was it that each dog was lacking that combined would make it superior for the intended purpose?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

This seems to be the most common explanation for the Labradoodle.

The Australian Labradoodle


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I work for a vet who refuses to acknowledge the cutsie name that mixed breeds come with. So if you say you have a maltipoo- she writes Maltese / poodle cross. It's funny.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Haha im the same way!!! At work during rounds -

"Over here we have a 7 yr old spayed female puggle...."

Me: "pug/beagle mix?"

"....."

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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)




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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

How do you like this combo? Golden Pei, Chinese Shar-Pei Golden Retriever Hybrid, Golden Peis

Golden Retriever/Chinese Shar Pei !?!?

I ran across this "hybrid" after doing a DNA test on a rescue dog. I know DNA tests are not accurate but they said my dog was half Swiss White Shepherd and on the other side Golden/Shar Pei. 

She was found in the middle of the Blue Ridge Mountains away from any homes by some hikers so there is no telling what she really is. I just thought it was a very odd "hybrid".


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have no problem with cross breds that are 1) bred and placed responsibly and 2)for a purpose. Not my cup of tea, but the original doodles for service work, husky mixes for racing, sport dog mixes for agility/flyball and such make sense and for the most part fit my 1) and 2).

I do get angry at the people breeding random mutts, slapping a ridiculous, cute name on it and charging a fortune for no purpose other than greed and taking advantage of the ignorant masses. And angry at the people who support that sort of breeding.


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## DJGinger (Jun 5, 2013)

I know I seemed grumpy/snooty and hate crossbreeds.
My problem with Labradoodles and the general _*trend for "fashion crossbreeds for profit...*_ mostly unscrupulous puppy mills trying to milk money from the disabled. >: ( I will jump for joy when only a certified therapy dog gets public access and the dogs MUST pass certain criteria of temperament. 
One might say buyer beware... but when a desperate parent gets a dog prescription then is flummoxed by loooong wait for pretrained animal or high expense of proven purebreds in the need. A dog touted publically (since there is no regulatory commission on it) as problem free, allergy free because it has poodle, large, trainable "healthier" because it is mix. And then is affordable? Or part of an "association" breeding and SELLING them? Specially "Pedigreed".You can't be too harsh on the non dog savvy consumer.


I've met a happy retriever temperamented, wag tailed, gentle therapy Doodles...also met a high strung nervous dog that snapped at my son in passing at a public place (hospital) The dogs are lauded like a cure. Emphasis on possible adult traits . Possible. The people with good ones gush over them and keep them. The people misled or with bad ones? Dump them. The one version has the softest coat when clipped

http://www.theasthmacenter.org/index.php/newsletter/pet_allergy/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labradoodle

Important facts:
1) "*Not all Labradoodles are hypoallergenic*, but it is a quality that many look for and appreciate in this breed of dog."

2)"Because the Labradoodle is a hybrid and not a breed, puppies do not have consistently predictable characteristics.While most Labradoodles have some common traits, their appearance and *behavioral characteristics remain, to some extent, unpredictable*."

3) "Labradoodles can suffer from problems common to their parent breeds. Poodles and Labrador Retrievers can suffer from hip dysplasia. PRA, MRA".
(and the Aussie version in particular has high incident of Addison's)

Plus the aussie type has several breeds intermixed in a multi-gen program which can only lower the ability to certify a hypo-allergenic dog. It's a buzz word since no one polices the industry standard for such claims.


AND meanwhile when it is a service dog ..guess who bears the brunt-heartache-expense?

what happens to the sick, high strung, or very allergic coat dogs...? the ones with wrong look or worse wrong size for job? At least ONE came to the Mesa pound every week.. though poodles are smart and were once working bird dogs, very few succeed at the type higher training needed as true service dogs or purebred standards would have been used all along. And they are the most hypo-allergenic dog coat beside hairless. but not all poodles are hypoallergenic and chances lower for hybrids. There are tons of rescue but stats are rising on the numbers hitting Shelters. Most shelters don't give them a high title. They are Lab/Poodle Mix.

http://www.poomixrescue.com/dog_search_results.php?dtype=Doodle&sort=dogstatus&submit=submit

http://doodlerescue.org/


http://www.nola.com/pets/index.ssf/2012/09/7_puppies_in_same_litter_adopt.html

"It's not rare that we get a litter of puppies, but it's rare that they stay in touch with each other," Abbrecht said.


http://www.diamonddoodles.com/
... no comment except "MO". Read and feel mixed... 


I really have nothing against the crossbreds of world, except they should be few and far between. I personally do not think that needs for new breeds exist, but if there is truly a niche that someone else hasn't already got the credit for filling. Creating VIABLE stable breed for that position is admirable. But I rally don't see that as the intent behind the mixed breed crazes. Most want to cash in on the service dog industry that is growing.
So by default I apply my jaundiced opinion on doodles to any modern "designer hybrid " that is pretty much ..we could decide what to breed.. had several mixed genders around and oops. But want money so "designer" "experimental" titles given.

I made my carefully selected choice. Getting another suitable single coat dog is not likely in years wait again, so I have gladly taken the donated Shep . She will trigger my achoo now and then... but that is what Allegra is for ^_^. But I know what her Possible health obstacles can be, what her general temperament is (as well as she was selected for her drive early on) and her estimated size.


Original try for doodle was to attempt to make an allergy proof Golden.
If there was any science not factoring in appearance or popularity the breeders would breed a poodle with another large, less high strung single coat dog or low shed breed. Of course ..most the single coat or low shed breeds I know of are either toy sizes or high strung, mostly the shorter coat bird dogs & terriers. It helps the spread of dander to be single coat shedder but really frequent bathing is the key. 
Doodles have not so far been a consistent resulting breed in over a 20 years SPAN breeding? Dobermans are a purposely made breed that started breeding true before the "creator" was dead. And registered as a breed.
My most favorite dog I ever owned was a blue eye brindle bully looking tank. He was Springer Spaniel/Golden Lab+ Boxer/huskey. Every single littermate was as uniform as breed with exception of color. The size , confirmation, temperament. I would have loved to get those dogs ....consistently. But that is work and time. 

Doodles should have stopped being produced when the reliability for the right coat / temperament failed. The failures still outnumber the successes


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

It's not even that they try to take money from the disabled, because I think the people who train service dogs aren't buying from puppy mills.

I think it's that what started out being a logical cross with good thought and planning put in behind it, people have taken it in a totally different direction and are doing all these different 'designer' crosses from bad breeding stock that really have no purpose other than having a cutesy name.

What I'd love to see, and what I think will eventually happen is the Labradoodle will become a recognized breed on it's own, with the three distinct coat types, and eventually, when they have a big enough gene pool to breed them to one another without having to do the poodle/lab crosses, that there will be more consistency in the breed type. It's still too much in it's infancy to really call it a breed and have standards, but I think many years down the road, this is what will happen.


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## DJGinger (Jun 5, 2013)

Okin said:


> How do you like this combo? Golden Pei, Chinese Shar-Pei Golden Retriever Hybrid, Golden Peis
> 
> Golden Retriever/Chinese Shar Pei !?!?


So they wanted a short coated chow? didn't realize there is one already?

Taukai Chow Chows

Wanted a sharpi that MIGHT not be a biter? more friendly? longer coat?

I like how "She is from a local _breeder_" "_comes from pure bloodlines_ on both sides of her breed". 
I saw one site that has nothing but "designer" one generation crosses starting at $800 and going up up up.

The backlash when it comes will hit responsible breeders hardest  Humane societies already paint good breeders with same brush as profit breeders and puppy mills)


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm not sure I understand the trend moving away from shepherds as service and guide dogs. Is it because of public perception of the breed? There are some amazing shepherds out there- and sure, they shed. But poodles haven't been a real working breed for quite some time. Adding them to the service dog gene pool is just silly. Especially if they don't even contribute hypoallergenic hair and just contribute the snippy-high strung doodle personality. That, and the grooming required for a -doodle is insane. What a hassle and expense for someone with a disability!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I know several people who work for a reputable service dog organization. They breed dogs that produce good service dogs, period. They are not concerned with breed or pedigree. If a cross between two breeds consistently produces healthy service dog prospects, that's what they breed. Also they have higher standards for health than most breeders (ex. not just OFA passable hips but if it's a dog that will be helping with mobility it has to have "excellent" rated hips). I doubt successful service dog organizations will stop breeding a certain breed or cross because of commercial breeding fads.


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## DJGinger (Jun 5, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I know several people who work for a reputable service dog organization. They breed dogs that produce good service dogs, period. They are not concerned with breed or pedigree. If a cross between two breeds consistently produces healthy service dog prospects, that's what they breed. Also they have higher standards for health than most breeders (ex. not just OFA passable hips but if it's a dog that will be helping with mobility it has to have "excellent" rated hips). I doubt successful service dog organizations will stop breeding a certain breed or cross because of commercial breeding fads.


You use an exception ....not the norm. You must be very proud that your friends work for such an organization. They probably don't release their dogs til they already have socialization, crate training. Full health and boosters. temperament tests. Most are not so great.

But after working e-list for 2 years I look at these organizations quite sourly. Do they Donate their dogs to training facilities? Like many Shepherd and Golden breeders do for TSE? Sell them? what about the mixes that didn't make it? how picky are they about them. If they failed the health...Who gets them? what if the temperament tanks as the animal grows? Do they take them back? Do they destroy unhealthy animals? At what rate?
Are they service dogs or "therapy " dogs?
If they don't care about breed or pedigree why not go get pound puppies that pass the criteria instead of BREEDING? 
What are they going to charge the state or the recipient for this stellar quality MIX? as much as a breed because they tacked "service" on? I am not fooled. 90% are all about PROFIT.

I would think one should to have idea of possible health probs from pedigree-work drive and of course breed characteristics. Only reason I have any pedigree care at all.




Diamond Doodles

I have no particular axe on this breeder.. they just happen to be a name I KNOW provides for Paws4cause an a few others so could google in specific


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well I don't know about you but I'm not going to restrict what others do with their dogs or what dogs they buy based on a few people who breed dogs for bad reasons. Like we've already said....this is absolutely not unique to cross/mixed breeds.

My friends work for this organization:
https://www.pawswithacause.org/

They don't charge clients. Like all reputable service dog organizations, the dogs are *free* (but usually have tens of thousands put into their training and health).

Therapy dogs are not service dogs, not sure how that's relevant.

Their job is to provide healthy, sound, trained service dogs, they are not a dog rescue that pulls dogs from the pound (there are plenty of groups here that do that).

It sounds more like your beef is with unethical "service dog" organizations.....


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The only purebred is the wolf. Most dog breeds started out as mutts, mutations or evolved by selective breeding for its task. A purebred is just a consistent phenotype of mutt. MHO 
It all went downhill when dogs were shown. But I am very happy with my "purebred" WD allthough some do not consider him a GSD.


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## mscici (Jun 19, 2013)

*Labradoodle*



MadLab said:


> I'm more worried about puppy farms and people breeding pure breeds to extremes without any complaint from the kennel clubs than I am about new designer crossbreeds. Seems like the KC does register puppy farms and does little to stop inbreeding and genetic issues in pure breeds.
> 
> In general I think there is a lack of education about breeds and where they came from.
> People should refer to designer breeds as cross breeds and not try to create new breeds just because the name is catchy.


I LOVE labradoodle... hoping to have one, one of these days. Labradoodle OR NOT. They’re still a dog, who are looking for someone to love and care for them, just like us...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

in blue - Exactly.

As others have said there are plenty of breeders of mixed *and* purebred dogs who clearly are very, very inhumane in their breeding practices.

Those types of breeders are the problem we should be focusing on.




Liesje said:


> *Well I don't know about you but I'm not going to restrict what others do with their dogs or what dogs they buy based on a few people who breed dogs for bad reasons. Like we've already said....this is absolutely not unique to cross/mixed breeds*.
> 
> My friends work for this organization:
> https://www.pawswithacause.org/
> ...


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## Lady Jenna (May 4, 2013)

Poodle... the cranberry of the dog world...  I don't care what breed your dog is, or isn't. If you love 'em, feed 'em, take 'em for walks... I do have issues with people trying to dupe those in need of service dogs. And I agree with Wolfydog, all of our dogs are crosses, if you go back far enough; we just selected for specific traits. All you have to do is compare an American show line to a DDR working line to know the truth of that.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

There are 2 Golden-Doodles in my neighborhood. One is the perfect dog. The other is a maniac. The maniac would be great for somebody who does agility, but in her current home she doesn't get enough training and stimulation.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

My labradoodle is insane. He's got anxiety so bad I use chains on my dog gates while I'm gone. Granted he hadn't left his puppy mill house until the rescue picked him up at 14 months, so the whole no socialization thing left its mark. But he's healthy and is exceptionally smart, plus he doesn't shed.

That said, when I was at Maxwell AFB I got to see a lot of their service dog program. They'd get labs, goldens, and golden/lab mixes. The most capable of them seemed to be the mixes. They had a boxer once too. The organization that provided the dogs for their early training would keep all the purebreds intact and neuter or spay all the mixed breeds. If they did not make it through the program they were spayed or neutered too.

I say put aside all the designer stuff and look at all the immensely successful herding, general purpose farm, and hunting dogs. Those are disciplines in which there is no concern for looks or paperwork. They take their best "whatever" dog and breed it to their best "whatever" bitch. Might be border collie pitbull shepherd mixes, but if they move those sheep like nobody's business who CARES? Lots of hunting and hog dogs are like that. The best hoggers I've ever seen were bully breeds mixed with hunting dogs. Great squirrel dogs seem to be mixed breeds as well.

Our breed is pretty shallow; GSDs were mutts until fairly recently! Never overlook the possibility of a new breed with great versatility just because its origin is 'impure'. All the breeds are impure, and so many of them are now iconic.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

"Crossing eliminates the virtues of both parent races, the only result is the true mongrel, whose chief characteristic is the lack of character"

this was credited to Darwin in a reading, but I was unable to find reference to it in secondary research. however Darwin's works are quite expansive... still think it holds true.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Huh? A sweeping statement about mutts.

A trip down memory lane to High School biology class quickly yields recollections of 'hybrid vigor'. Immense googling research not required, first page results guaranteed. 




jae said:


> "Crossing eliminates the virtues of both parent races, the only result is the true mongrel, whose chief characteristic is the lack of character"
> 
> this was credited to Darwin in a reading, but I was unable to find reference to it in secondary research. however Darwin's works are quite expansive... still think it holds true.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

yes but crossing dog breeds doesn't produce hybrid vigor. That is because dogs are all one species.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

btw- I know there are some breeders that are just throwing two different breeds of dogs together for a quick buck but there are some who understand hybrids (F1, F2 and so on) and knowledge of genetics has expanded immensely since Darwin's passing.

Hybrid (biology) - New World Encyclopedia


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hmmm, but I know that crosses between closely related species are referred to as hybirds, from my link above:



> Hybridization between two closely related species is well known in nature. Many hybrid zones have been identified where the ranges of two species meet, and where hybrids are continually produced in great numbers. For example, the shifting of the hybrid zone between black-capped chickadees and Carolina chickadees in southeastern Pennsylvania, as measured by DNA markers, has been studied and related to possible environmental factors, such as global warming (Curry 2005).


 


Dainerra said:


> yes but crossing dog breeds doesn't produce hybrid vigor. That is because dogs are all one species.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

marbury said:


> Our breed is pretty shallow; GSDs were mutts until fairly recently! Never overlook the possibility of a new breed with great versatility just because its origin is 'impure'. All the breeds are impure, and so many of them are now iconic.


Great point! People talking about how there's already a breed for everything....I'm pretty sure there were decent breeds for herding, tracking, and police/military work long before the GSD which is probably one of the newest breeds. I wonder if some of the other crosses/types pre-date the "purebred" GSD? A quick Google search says lurchers may date back to the 14th and 15th centuries.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Hmmm, but I know that crosses between closely related species are referred to as hybirds, from my link above:


yes, two closely related species. All dogs are dogs. You can't create a hybrid (mix of 2 closely related species) when you have only species


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## Walperstyle (Nov 20, 2012)

Lady Jenna said:


> ... And I agree with Wolfydog, all of our dogs are crosses, if you go back far enough; we just selected for specific traits. All you have to do is compare an American show line to a DDR working line to know the truth of that.


well said.

I find it hilarious these 'dog shows' that try to pass off the idea of 'pure bred' as a prestigious affair that only nobility and special high society types attend. People that obviously get 'dooped' into spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars on products for the dog. Its a farce. 

In my opinion, all dogs are mutts in some form or another. Some of the best service dogs and bomb sniffers out there are mixes. As long as they are a friend, or do the job requested, they are a good dog. ...but just like owning a Honda vs a Ferrari... there is always those types in the industry that will sell you the notion that one is better then the other because of its look and its 'passion'. Meanwhile, the industry has taken your money.

Dogs are dogs. That is my opinion. I'd rather have a Honda and build it to perform a like a Ferrari then to have a Ferrari, and be an arrogant prick. Same with my GSD... if I found out he's 75% GSD, at least I know he is better than a lot of purebreds because I trained him to be that way.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Then how can they call the progeny of two closely related species, chickadees in my example, hybrids? 

Is the term being used incorrectly or is the definition of two different species becoming more specific? I remember this being a discussion about Florida Panthers vs Montain lions of the west for instance. The disagreement was whether they were different species or not.

btw- not being argumentative, if I recall correctly this is your area of specialization, yes?

Also, more closely on topic would you consider the old axiom that mutts on a whole tend to be healthier and have less genetics problems then purebreds (such as HD) to be accurate?



Dainerra said:


> yes, two closely related species. All dogs are dogs. You can't create a hybrid (mix of 2 closely related species) when you have only species


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think you meant 'duped'. Just sayin'. 

Obviously I don't have a problem with mix breeds myself but people who breed and show dogs aren't all bad and snobs either. Capt. Von Stephanitz believed in a registry to ensure the pedigrees of the dogs be maintained. :shrug:





Walperstyle said:


> well said.
> 
> I find it hilarious these 'dog shows' that try to pass off the idea of 'pure bred' as a prestigious affair that only nobility and special high society types attend. People that obviously get 'dooped' into spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars on products for the dog. Its a farce.
> 
> ...


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## mscici (Jun 19, 2013)

*Experemental Breed*

Typically, these dog breed are regional working dogs (hunting or guard dogs), which have a long history, though in a limited geographical area. Usually they are already 'unoficially' recognized as separate breeds by local authorities or canine experts.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dogs are not dogs ---- a basset hound never would have boundary instinct essential to the work a day life of the GSD's herding behaviour . A border collie and a GSD work sheep differently. We choose which elements of behaviour we want to emphasize to make a dog helpful to us , meaning human endeavour and that goes from sledge dogs to hunting , retrieving , flock guardian , herd management and companion.
Darwin was a good start . Some of the changes , rapid changes to environment are now thought to be epigenetics rather than a selection process . Darwin and his cousin Dalton who got excited about heredity superiority set things into motion for the eugenics movement adopted by Kellog in America and others in Europe which lead to some horrible , horrible history .


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

True.

How separate species are defined doesn't appear to be a settled science either?

In my earlier example the reason some wanted the Florida Panther identified as a unique species was to get more protection for them under the endangered species laws. The biologists were divided on whether they should be classified as a separate species.

So I wonder if chickadees and panthers whose only differences are regional or the color pattern of feathers or fur are classified as 'closely related but separate species' wouldn't the same hold true of the different breeds of Canis lupus familiaris?





carmspack said:


> dogs are not dogs ---- a basset hound never would have boundary instinct essential to the work a day life of the GSD's herding behaviour . A border collie and a GSD work sheep differently. We choose which elements of behaviour we want to emphasize to make a dog helpful to us , meaning human endeavour and that goes from sledge dogs to hunting , retrieving , flock guardian , herd management and companion.
> Darwin was a good start . Some of the changes , rapid changes to environment are now thought to be epigenetics rather than a selection process . Darwin and his cousin Dalton who got excited about heredity superiority set things into motion for the eugenics movement adopted by Kellog in America and others in Europe which lead to some horrible , horrible history .


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