# Caucasian Ovcharka the great guard dogs



## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Those in need of protection real potential threats may consider

Caucasian Ovcharka

Following seems to be a good breeder

ThunderHawk* Caucasians - ThunderHawk Caucasians ...the Guardian Elite. Top Breeders of this ancient and fierce guardian dog.

Has anyone in this forum worked with COs?


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## CindyMDBecker (Feb 22, 2013)

We owned one briefly. His kidneys mysteriously failed at 8 months old. He was a gorgeous animal but way too much aggression for my liking. It was a hard lesson learned. We went back to GSDs after him. Have you met any in person?


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I would never own one...read lots about them, too much aggression, need lots of land, not a practical breed to own for regular folks.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I considered getting one but one hundred fifty pounds of aggression could be a bit difficult to manage and control. I chose differently but still love the breed.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

They put up a good show but most can be run, defense is too high generally. There are many GSDs on the sharper end that can provide the same service.


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## royals17 (Feb 15, 2015)

To me, and I have only met one, they are good protection dogs, but they're just too generally aggressive. It would be hard to have one... they're so darn big!


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

The scary thing is that they (CO) seem attack to kill and attack face and throat. These can have huge legal implications even if the victim is a burglar. Its just like one cannot shoot a burglar to death.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks! 

Never heard of this breed before. Fascinating.

Wonder what helpers here would say about this guy:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI


Eta: that guy is lucky to be alive!


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

If you are into the extreme aggression and protection...look into the fila brasiliero...met a few of them, would not get into biting distance. Not the kind of dog someone living in a non-rural area would want.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Filas are the only breed I've ever seen with all their crates together at a dog show with caution tape around them. The judge does NOT touch those dogs to evaluate them.
That CO breeder is very close to me, I've met her a few times over the years with a few dogs and they always seem like decent dogs. Dogs to respect, but well trained and socialized and under control. 
I recently lost a little respect for the breeder though. A pup was sold to a lady who has a golden retriever and no experience with aggressive breeds. She was bringing the pup out to socialize. Gorgeous puppy! It started growling at other dogs at three months old, growling and lunging at people at four months old. The last I saw her, she left the pup in the car to get a muzzle for it. At just over four months old the owner was not capable of bringing it into public anymore. I imagine the pup has been given back to the breeder by now. 
Definitely not a breed for most people. The breeders website is great with tons of good info. One of them is you must not have unannounced visitors to your home.
All this being said I would love to own one some day - I really do admire them.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Never heard of this breed before. Fascinating.
> 
> ...


I was watching that and thinking 'man, what are you doing? The dogs is going to re grip', and low and behold... Wow, at least he looked like he felt stupid lol. He is very lucky, the dog could have gotten his face.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

COs are livestock guardians ... LGDs are not always suited for being out in public anyways, particularly COs ,which seems to be on the more aggressive end of LGDs. Being overly aggressive is a disqualifying fault according to FCI standards. LGDs need to be clear-headed thinkers, not just blindly aggressive.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Mikelia said:


> Filas are the only breed I've ever seen with all their crates together at a dog show with caution tape around them. The judge does NOT touch those dogs.


:spittingcoffee:

Here's another genius:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MI2g9ToOYi4


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## reptilejason (May 21, 2015)

They could be an effective guard dog if you never wanted to be around any other living creatures ever or take them anywere ever...lol


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> :spittingcoffee:
> 
> Here's another genius:
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MI2g9ToOYi4


Wtf!! Why would you do that????? People astound me sometimes.


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> :spittingcoffee:
> 
> Here's another genius:
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MI2g9ToOYi4



:shocked: But the doggie was wagging his tail... :sarcasm:


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

In my country CO is a common live stock guardian dog in villages, especially mountain villages. I know some people that have them as a house pets, living in apartments in our capital city, even with cats  With proper socialization they can tolerate other dogs but that is not a dog for dog park, especially not males. And they are not cuddly with strangers. 

They are not vicious killers, but certainly not for novice dog owners, not even for a average GSD owner. CO is hard, independent dog, living and working in harsh environment and his purpose is to guard live stock from wolves and to be brave enough to confront them, so it is not "your typical pet" (and I would advise against owning them as pets)


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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

Sunflowers said:


> :spittingcoffee:
> 
> Here's another genius:
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MI2g9ToOYi4


That Dude is a Knucklehead to the 10th power.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Scary dogs. They were bred to help hunt bears in Russia. I have a feeling they will begin to gain popularity here in the US as the mal and dutch have recently.
Americans just love owning big, bad, scary animals in their backyards. Which is why (IMO) so many people keep illegal exotic pets like tigers and such.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I am not impressed by CO's, especially for personal protection. Perhaps, if I was raising sheep or cattle living in a remote area I may consider them for a LGD. Nothing else. 

For me, they are too large and way too defensive and that is an issue, IMHO for a protection dog. They offer nothing more than a good Belgian Malinois or GSD for a protective dog and companion. If you can't take your dog out safely in public, then your options are severely limited and all you have is another liability, that the vast majority of people could not control.

I was very unimpressed by those videos, especially the bite work. I like strong, civil dogs, but this breed is not for me. I can find better traits and temperament in other breeds that are more to my liking. I prefer a more well rounded dog, and there are still some GSD's and plenty of Malinois that suit my likes and needs. 

JMO


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> They put up a good show but most can be run, defense is too high generally. There are many GSDs on the sharper end that can provide the same service.


Good news is there are very few humans out there with the balls to attempt to run one.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

One of our neighbors in a subdivision, mind you, had a Fila- an imposing animal. He would occasionally get out of their fence, and I would be sure to stay in the house!


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm interested in learning more about Thunderhawk's owner, Tamara Follett. Her website seems extensive and knowledgeable, but I am little confused why there is no direct contact info (phone #) nor does she make a point of inviting anyone to come and conduct an on-site visit. IMHO, any dog breeder/broker should be willing to talk to customers over the phone and should be willing to entertain on-site visits.

There is a little bio on her here: Tamara Follett, President - Assistance Dogs For All. It does seem that her experience with dogs is quite varied, from sled dogs, to sport and protection dogs, therapy dogs, and guardian dogs. I'm not necessarily saying that is a bad thing, but I generally give more credibility to people who put all their effort into specific areas of focus.

As well her website seems to glorify incidents where highly reactive dogs from her kennel/breeding aggressively confronted and in some cases nearly mauled, benign strangers. In her section about True stories of CO's protecting, she mentions one instance where a dog of hers aggressively charged and almost attacked a person unloading fuel near a family's house, and another one where a dog aggressively charged a family friend entering the house and required owner intervention. On the one hand, I get it...these are guardian dogs, many of them specifically bred by the Soviet military for guard and sentry duties. But on the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily glorify that type of stuff in my advertising. And I would hope that she is being very careful about to whom she sells these dogs to...even a well-meaning, but naive, owner can get into a whole lot of trouble with these types of dogs.

I also think she is perhaps asking for trouble by looking for certain attributes in these dogs. The Caucasian Ovcharka was originally a Livestock Guardian Dog (LGD) and in fact is is still used in that manner by shepherds in rural parts of Russia, Georgia, the stans, ect. I've heard that the temperament of these LGD versions of the breed is still suspicious and guarded towards strange humans, but that generally is a bit less human aggressive than the ones that came out of the Soviet breeding program. My 2 cents, but if I were a breeder, I would be more inclined to breed/sell true LGD-style Caucasian Ovcharka's 1) because there is a genuine demand for LGD's in ranching, sheep operations throughout North America and 2) selling Soviet guard dogs is going to run into legal and PR problems in the long run.

All that said, if someone genuinely needs a very high level of protection from their dog, I have no problem with these dogs being sold on the market. Just like with the pitbull legislation, I don't agree with demonizing and targeting the breed, but rather prefer to blame the irresponsible individual (owners and breeders) who are the root cause of dog problems.

Edit: as for the comments some have made that this dog doesn't do anything that a good GSD or Mailnois can't...apples to oranges I say. GSD's, Malinois, Dutch Shepherds are herding dogs and when they operate, work, train they are working off of prey drive in a lot of what they do. Caucasian Ovcharkas, even the ones bred and used by the Soviet military, came from LGD stock (supposedly some GSD was thrown in the military versions for better obedience). Someone earlier in this thread made the point that these dogs were "*way too defensive*." Yeah...that's kind of the whole point behind LGD's and Caucasians in general; they are supposed to be be largely inactive dogs that wait, watch and guard and when they do react, it is supposed to be out of a *defensive* drive. LGD's with too much prey drive would not be compatible with their historical purpose of defending livestock. So comparing working Caucasians to the working herding types in terms of protection, police-work, ect. needs to be done with that historical context in mind.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You're on the same path as the King Shepherds you were looking into Dalko.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> You're on the same path as the King Shepherds you were looking into Dalko.


How so?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

A lot of talk about great capabilities that you'll never actually be able to find.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> A lot of talk about great capabilities that you'll never actually be able to find.


To the contrary, I think this breeder and some of the Caucasian Ovcharkas being sold in North America in general are offering *too much* capability for the average dog owner.

As I said earlier, I don't think there should be any restrictions on this breed, or any breed for that matter. But this breeder, and others, seem to be providing Ovcharkas derived, at least in part, from Soviet military lines, with very high levels of aggression towards strangers. Her website at Thunderhawk caucasians even acknowledges this and classifies the extreme examples of this as a High Active Defense Reaction: Temperament Evaluation - ThunderHawk* Caucasians.

If someone truly needs an overly protective dog, and knows how to properly handle such a dog, fine. But for the average dog owner, I think a more even-tempered Caucasian, like the ones still used as LGD's in rural areas of Russia and the Caucasus region, or even another breed all-together (like a Great Pyrenees or Anatolian) would be much more suitable as a family companion/protector. 

I don't question the breed's capability; their performance as LGD's and guardian dogs is well-known in certain areas, though perhaps not well-known in Western Europe and North America due to a lack of breeder presence until recently. I do question why North American breeders are more focused on the military version of the Caucasian versus the LGD version. And I do question why this particular breeder offers very little in the way of direct contact for potential customers.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, maybe capability wasn't the exact, best choice of words. 180lbs of unstable is capable of a lot of harm, especially when you don't have any say over it. I'm not willing to put my faith in what the website has to say. You can if you want.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Well, maybe capability wasn't the exact, best choice of words. 180lbs of unstable is capable of a lot of harm, especially when you don't have any say over it. I'm not willing to put my faith in what the website has to say. You can if you want.


I don't know enough about the kennel or its owner to put any trust in the website either. And like I've said, I'm more than a little skeptical about why you can't reach out to the owner for discussion/questions.

And yes, I agree that "capability" is being used in the vaguest sense here, since 180lbs of extremely aggressive, highly reactive dog can either be a capability or a total nightmare depending on who owns the dog, how it was raised, and how it is employed.

That said, if you go check out resources about the rural Caucasians of Georgia and about LGD's in general, you can see for yourself that the hype around these dogs is not 100% unfounded. There are versions of these LGD's that have been bred over the centuries to fulfill a functional purpose; some modern day versions are still used for these pastoral guard duties.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

Caucasians - are an ancient Georgian breed, another breed, with much less bushy tail and related to it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangal_dog has similar characters. These dogs were bred to work in snowy mountains of Turkey and Georgia guarding beef stock from bears and wolves as well as human thieves. Caucasians can work purely on their own initiative without any handler. That's why it is difficult to train them, contact with humans is very poor, there's no love to humans as such, they appear as "serious" and very reserved dogs and meeting one on his own territory would mean a certain death to the intruder. One good thing - they love their own territory more than anything else, would live happily in your back yard without meeting anybody, and they rarely run away.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> Well, maybe capability wasn't the exact, best choice of words. 180lbs of unstable is capable of a lot of harm, especially when you don't have any say over it. I'm not willing to put my faith in what the website has to say. You can if you want.


Steve,
I understand the points that you are making. Naturally, there will be some folks that are attracted to this type of dog, with out knowing what they may be getting. I have a good friend that has a few hundred acres and cattle. He has four LGD's that live with the cattle and sheep year round. He is the only one that can approach them, his other dogs would be killed if they came into one of the pastures. Hunting dogs that chase deer across his property often fall victim, his dogs have dispatched many coyotes, even fought a black bear and ran it off the property, destroying a fence in the process. 

These are not pets, they are LGD's. Not the best for personal protection, but great for protecting farm animals. 

Steve, those that understand drives, like you do, will realize what prey, fight and defense bring to a confrontation. This understanding will show why a Malionis, Dutch Shepherd or a good GSD will make a better personal protection dog than a LGD. 

Defense is a double edged sword and is not all that some make it out to be. I know that some people think that a highly defensive, snarling, barking and vicious looking dog is a really strong dog. Often it is all show and the sign of a insecure dog. I'm not saying that CO's are like this, but I'm not impressed by big displays of aggression from a dog, or overly defensive dogs. I only have 5 acres and no cattle to guard. However, my GSD's have done an excellent job of protecting the house, me and my family over the years. My off the wall "prey monkey" Belgian Malinois is the last dog that I want to send on some one. I have serious reservations of that dog needing to defend me. He has as much "prey drive" as Boomer, and they both really hurt when they bite (in prey or defense  ). 

In the past I have given extra warnings, far more than were needed before deploying Boomer, knowing what was about to happen and being a fairly compassionate individual. I am really going to negotiate, beg and plead before releasing Boru on some one. I pity the fool that doesn't heed my warnings. Those pesky high prey drive dogs can be something else. :wink2:


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

go to about the 4:30 mark.

They are certainly capable of guarding, and if someone can handle them and train them (as many people do) then I guess that makes them a good trainer.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Defense drive as most understand it is overrated. 

Prey drive with aggression in a strong dog is the scariest of all. The dog is not fighting for its life. It is fighting to end yours and eat you and it's super excited about that prospect. Such a dog is very very offensively minded. Deepest grips and hardest bites will happen here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> You're on the same path as the King Shepherds you were looking into Dalko.


 A King Shepherd ( a dog that looks like a GSD but is not) and a "Caucasian Ovcharka" on the same "do I want list???" Uh .... wow!!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Baillif said:


> Defense drive as most understand it is overrated.
> 
> Prey drive with aggression in a strong dog is the scariest of all. The dog is not fighting for its life. It is fighting to end yours and eat you and it's super excited about that prospect. Such a dog is very very offensively minded. Deepest grips and hardest bites will happen here.


Well said. 

This is what I was saying. You must see some of the same dogs that I see. :grin2:


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Can I interest anyone in a Caucasian Ovcharka for a mere 50k? He will die for you! Only works with my super secret Russian training that I learned on the plains of Siberia.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I dont mind the dogs that operate in defense for PP or Estate P, its hard to find one with the necessary courage though.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Excellent post Black Kali,.......coming from first hand knowledge which always interests me!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think Slam's last post puts it in context as to terms of working /PPD.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

As with anything, the context matters. 

If you want a PPD that can go everywhere with you and be your level-headed, obedient companion out in public and still defend you should a serious threat arise, then yes I agree a herding type dog (GSD, Malinois) makes more sense.

If you want a dog to guard your property and family against predators (of the 2 and 4-legged variety) while you're away, a LGD-style dog, including the CO, is a good choice as well. 

I know people will have personal opinions about which drive is more desirable to have in a true life-or-death situation. The fact is that these CO's, and LGD's in general, have been bred and selected to guard livestock and shepherds and fight off predators (sometimes that meant other humans) over hundreds, if not thousands of years. Their prey drive was de-emphasized because it would do no good if the dogs chased, harassed and killed the livestock they were supposed to protect. That hasn't inhibited these dogs' inclination to fight, and sometimes kill, hostile threats; and they most certainly aren't fighting due to a sense of self-preservation. Perhaps it would help if we distinguished between fight, defensive and prey drive. Most of the LGD dogs have plenty of the former two, and some of the more aggressive breeds have at least some measured amount of the latter. 

The desire to guard against and fight off threats is genetically inherent to this type of dog. Their size and independent thinking makes them unsuitable, for the most part, as police or military dogs (the Soviets seemed to find a niche for them in guarding border posts and prisons). But they are perfectly suited as family guardians. I'll refrain from saying that a LGD is universally "better" as family guardian/protector than a GSD or Mailnois, because that's getting into a pointless and highly subjective debate. But anyone who doubts or is not "impressed" with their "snarling" and "barking" probably needs to read up on the history and culture of LGD's; they may lack the documented pedigrees and established lines that us westerners have come to expect, but there is certainly a working utility behind the breeding and evolution of these dogs. There is a reason that ranchers and farmers are using LGD's, not GSD's and Mailnois, to deter predators, of all types, throughout North America and the world.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Dalko43 said:


> As with anything, the context matters.
> 
> If you want a PPD that can go everywhere with you and be your level-headed, obedient companion out in public and still defend you should a serious threat arise, then yes I agree a herding type dog (GSD, Malinois) makes more sense.
> 
> ...




Yup, I'm not impressed with them as a personal protection dog. One must understand what is needed for a functional PP dog to be seriously judge breeds or dogs for that matter. While a CO may have extreme aggression, this is only factor needed for a PP dog. One must be able to take a PP dog everywhere and expose it to a wide variety of situations and environmental stimuli. Working in a prison is one thing, going to a coffee shop is another. 

As I said, I have friends that use these dogs as Live stock guardians. These dogs live outside, year round with the herd. They have no contact with other people or animals. I appreciate their LG abilities. The same friend that owns them has a GSD as his personal dog. The GSD does not go near his LGD's but goes everywhere else with him. 

They are great at what they do, live outside year round and protect his cattle, sheep and pigs. 

This is a good example of using the right tool for the job and understanding how various tools (dogs) work. It all sounds good on the internet and reading breeders websites. When the rubber meets the road, I want the right dog with me. One that can go anywhere at anytime and do the job.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... I'm pretty flexible as regards dog's ... and even I can't muster a good argument for a CO as a PPD ... well I don't know maybe if you don't have a lot of friends ... kids or neighbors???


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Yup, I'm not impressed with them as a personal protection dog. One must understand what is needed for a functional PP dog to be seriously judge breeds or dogs for that matter. While a CO may have extreme aggression, this is only factor needed for a PP dog. One must be able to take a PP dog everywhere and expose it to a wide variety of situations and environmental stimuli. Working in a prison is one thing, going to a coffee shop is another.
> 
> As I said, I have friends that use these dogs as Live stock guardians. These dogs live outside, year round with the herd. They have no contact with other people or animals. I appreciate their LG abilities. The same friend that owns them has a GSD as his personal dog. The GSD does not go near his LGD's but goes everywhere else with him.
> 
> ...



There are plenty of LGD's that get socialized for day-to-day human contact...with owners and strangers. A lot of that depends on the dog's upbringing and socialization in its early years. Citing one example from personal experience does not represent the breed overall. In fact, many ranchers and herders in North America are putting more effort into socializing their LGD's with humans in order to avoid potential conflicts on open range situations. Obviously, I agree that a GSD or Malinois has more practicality in coffee shop and public walk scenarios, but most LGD breeds are well capable of interacting in that kind of environment, so long as they are socialized properly.

And again, I think you owe it to yourself to read up on the historical and modern day uses of LGD's. The bonding process, which is used to attach the dog to whatever it is guarding for the long term, can be transposed to just about anything including livestock, human family members, even endangered species like Penguins (Maremma Sheepdogs keep watch over Little Penguins | The Bark). As I said earlier, much of this depends on how the dog is raised and socialized during its early years.

As for you not being "impressed," that's a highly subjective matter that has no definitive resolution. Your view of what traits and drives a personal protection dog must have may differ from someone else's views. For example you've mentioned that prey drive is very important and that defensive drive is given more weight than it deserves. I've heard others say the exact opposite in that the modern sport and working breeds have too much emphasis on prey drive, and not enough pure aggressive instincts when it comes to defending itself or its owner/handler. Jim Engel, a former writer for "Dogsport" and other publications, had some interesting things to say about that very topic; a lot of it has matched up with my own personal observations.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

LGB cannot be evaluated by strengths, traits or outcomes of dogs bred for herding and or man work. Different emphasis in innate core traits. Doesn't mean the occasional LGB can't be developed into effective PPD, or that the occasional herding breed couldnt be an effective livestock guardian......but exceptions would be case in either instance. Both breeds are very effective in their own right, but the level of fight drive, which I also feel is separate from defense drive, though it can be in either predominant prey or defense oriented dogs, is more acutely developed instinctively in LGB today. Fight is the one common trait that I would want to see in either LG dog or PPD. But LG dogs are more developed to work/bond with and against animals and PPD are more developed to work for/against man. Jmo


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Cliff, 
Excellent point. 

Dalko,
You need some first hand experience to understand prey and defense and there contributions to a dog's drive and temperament. It is not quite as simple as reading what someone else says on the internet. We are not talking about sport dogs in this thread. Yet, some seem to always confuse the topic when prey or defense comes in. Yes, prey is used in sport dogs, of course. But, it is also used in LE K-9's as well. Prey brings speed and speed brings power. I teach our Patrol dogs that any person running away OR even running at them and attacking is prey. There is a very valid and distinct reason for this. The same can be done for sport dogs, but the end result is different. Defense is needed as well, I'm not discounting defense. I'm just very pragmatic on drives and temperament. Defense is often overrated by the folks with little actual experience, have something to sell or just post on the internet. 

Drives in a dog and the total drive package can be a complicated subject for novices to understand. I can assure you that prey, fight and defense are all needed in a well rounded dog. Absolutely for a LE, MWD and even a PP dog. I agree, that many do not understand the value of prey, how to use it, and how to benefit from it. To many people believe that a highly defensive dog is a better PP dog and that is often a fallacy and untrue. I've been bitten by dogs in prey and defense and it all hurts.  

Not surprisingly, you completely missed my earlier points on defense. I never said that defense was not needed or beneficial, just that overly defensive dogs are not ideal. 

Again, this thread was not the old tiresome and monotonous argument of prey vs defense, or sport vs "real dogs." This thread was about the CO as a PP dog. IME, when breeders or posters start discounting prey and talk about their "real dogs" it is time to run. It is simply ridiculous. Trust me, there are plenty of sport dogs that are competing at high levels that are very "real." Don't buy into the hype. 

I think I have a little real world experience with both working dogs and sport dogs. I understand the bonding process and how LGDs work. Funny, but I am out every single day working and training LE dogs, IPO dogs and behaviorally challenged pet dogs. My "subjective" views are based on real world experience, not articles or internet threads. Im sure you will be there as well in the future. I am not basing my opinions on reading Jim Engels website or what I have seen on forums. It comes from actual experience and getting out and doing it.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Dalko,
> You need some first hand experience to understand prey and defense and there contributions to a dog's drive and temperament. It is not quite as simple as reading what someone else says on the internet.


I'm not surprised that you're bringing up the same thinly veiled personal attacks that you've used in past threads. I'm not inclined to go down this road with you, but suffice it to say I'm more than certain that my observations and opinions on this matter are not based purely on "what someone else says on the internet." That said, Jim Engel is a well-known writer on working breeds of the police/military type and their applications in both sports and work. His articles are worth a peruse, even if you don't agree with everything he says: Angel's Lair: Working Dogs




Slamdunc said:


> We are not talking about sport dogs in this thread.


Let's not beat around the bush on this; in an ideal world, the GSD or Malinois dog that I would buy for sport, police work, personal protection, SAR, herding, ect. would have very nearly the same breeding and foundation. The upbringing, socialization and training that the dog receives might be different depending on its intended role, but a working dog is a working dog, and all of the basic drives and character qualities should be there. Realistically speaking, I know this isn't always the case.



Slamdunc said:


> Yet, some seem to always confuse the topic when prey or defense comes in. Yes, prey is used in sport dogs, of course. But, it is also used in LE K-9's as well. Prey brings speed and speed brings power. I teach our Patrol dogs that any person running away OR even running at them and attacking is prey. There is a very valid and distinct reason for this. The same can be done for sport dogs, but the end result is different. Defense is needed as well, I'm not discounting defense. I'm just very pragmatic on drives and temperament. Defense is often overrated by the folks with little actual experience, have something to sell or just post on the internet.
> 
> Drives in a dog and the total drive package can be a complicated subject for novices to understand. I can assure you that prey, fight and defense are all needed in a well rounded dog. Absolutely for a LE, MWD and even a PP dog. I agree, that many do not understand the value of prey, how to use it, and how to benefit from it. To many people believe that a highly defensive dog is a better PP dog and that is often a fallacy and untrue. I've been bitten by dogs in prey and defense and it all hurts.


Again, we are getting into personal opinion here, not fact. I agree that prey drive is very relevant to working dogs of the herding type. I agree that some trainers/owners may rely too much on dogs biting out of fear or uncertainty. That said, I also think there are trainers/handlers who train dogs to be bite-happy and make the whole fight sequence (whether it be for real world work or sport scenarios) too focused on the dog's inherent desire to chase and bite a moving target. My humble opinion, is that a GSD or Mali type dog doing any kind of bite work (sport, protection, patrol) should be readily capable of transitioning from fighting/biting based on prey drives to fighting/biting based on a genuine aggression/dislike towards whatever its engaged with.

All that said, dogs of the LGD-style work off of inherently different temperaments and drives from those of the herding-style. They were bred to be largely reactive and defensive, rather than proactive and predatory (obviously they are variances and nuances to that statement among the different LGD breeds). 



Slamdunc said:


> Not surprisingly, you completely missed my earlier points on defense. I never said that defense was not needed or beneficial, just that overly defensive dogs are not ideal.


I don't think I misconstrued what you said. You said that you thought that Caucasian Ovcharkas were "too defensive." I made the counterpoint that CO's, and other LGD's, *are supposed* to rely more on their defensive and fight drives rather than prey drives, due to their traditional breeding and roles. 




Slamdunc said:


> Again, this thread was not the old tiresome and monotonous argument of prey vs defense, or sport vs "real dogs." This thread was about the CO as a PP dog. IME, when breeders or posters start discounting prey and talk about their "real dogs" it is time to run. It is simply ridiculous. Trust me, there are plenty of sport dogs that are competing at high levels that are very "real." Don't buy into the hype.


I wasn't trying to turn this into a sport dog vs "real dog" argument. My reference to Jim Engel and the topic of prey vs defensive drive was used to merely illustrate that there are different schools of thought when it comes to breeding and drives. Nor am I discounting prey drive. I'm simply saying different people have different views when it comes to the topic of drives and temperaments. IME, when someone says my idea on topic A is 100% right, and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, it's time to turn away, or at least take what they're saying with a grain of salt.



Slamdunc said:


> I think I have a little real world experience with both working dogs and sport dogs. I understand the bonding process and how LGDs work. Funny, but I am out every single day working and training LE dogs, IPO dogs and behaviorally challenged pet dogs. My "subjective" views are based on real world experience, not articles or internet threads. Im sure you will be there as well in the future. I am not basing my opinions on reading Jim Engels website or what I have seen on forums. It comes from actual experience and getting out and doing it.


Ah, these subtle insults again. I'm very confident with my own experiences and views with working dogs and dogs in general. And, in fact, I'm always willing to learn more and change my views as I take in new information. Jim Engel is someone I brought up because he has some very well-written articles on this subject, and other topics. I'm not using him to make my arguments; I agree with some of the stuff he says, and yet some of it I disagree with.

As for your own "subjective" views...that's exactly what they are, regardless of how much experience you may think you have to support them. I'd encourage you to keep an open mind on this, and in fact any, topic; the learning process should never stop. Rather than try to label my opinion as one based out of anecdotes and lack of "real world" experience, you should learn to accept that not everyone is going to have the same opinion when it comes to certain topics. For example, I disagree with your assessment that LGD's are only good for guarding livestock, because I've in fact met many that act as family pets and guardians. Now that doesn't mean that all LGD's are suitable as family pets/guardians...there are likely degrees of truth to both sides of that argument.

Also, why are you taking such an opposing stance to everything I say? With the exception of his point that LGD's aren't ideal for bonding/working with humans, Cliffson1's post on the different drives of a LGD-type dog vs a herding-type dog has pretty much reiterated everything I've been saying. You agree with him but not me?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Why would I agree with or have a similar opinion with someone that I know has experience working, training dogs and raising dogs? Because they have experience working, raising and training dogs, it is really kinda simple. There are many people that I agree with on this forum. Based on their posts or knowing them through sport or work, I can tell their knowledge and experience level. With that said, even a new pet owner can make some very good observations and I see many folks that have excellent instincts and excellent posts. 

I agree that an open mind is a very good thing to have, it will really benefit you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Dalko, did you go see those king shepherds you were planning to ?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Regarding the CO, I am starting to feel sorry for a breed whose only purpose seems to be is being aggressive. At least with the IPO types, they can have a balanced life.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I disagree with your assessment that LGD's are only good for guarding livestock, because I've in fact met many that act as family pets and guardians.


But the ones your talking about are so far removed from the ones actually guarding livestock, they'd probably be afraid of the sheep. The whole thing with these different off breeds to me doesn't have to be comparison of drives or anything that narrow.

You can find examples of all of them being pets, but when it comes to doing something specific,a task. Sport or other, show me someone doing it well enough that you can trust that they know what it actually takes and that they are actually maintaining it in the dogs they're breeding. 

The aggression shown on videos with these ovcharkas isn't anything directable or usable in any other context beyond stay out of my space, and even then you really don't know if they're going to shred someone or run way. Off breeds are just that for a reason.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> But the ones your talking about are so far removed from the ones actually guarding livestock, they'd probably be afraid of the sheep. The whole thing with these different off breeds to me doesn't have to be comparison of drives or anything that narrow.
> 
> You can find examples of all of them being pets, but when it comes to doing something specific,a task. Sport or other, show me someone doing it well enough that you can trust that they know what it actually takes and that they are actually maintaining it in the dogs they're breeding.
> 
> The aggression shown on videos with these ovcharkas isn't anything directable or usable in any other context beyond stay out of my space, and even then you really don't know if they're going to shred someone or run way. Off breeds are just that for a reason.


An excellent point and well said!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

_If you want a PPD that can go everywhere with you and be your level-headed, obedient companion out in public and still defend you should a serious threat arise, then yes I agree a herding type dog (GSD, Malinois) makes more sense._

I am very confused by this statement.
A PPD is supposed to go everywhere with you and be your level-headed, obedient companion. They cannot do their job otherwise. They must therefore be capable of extreme discernment. In many ways they need to be the best of the best. Any instability in temperament or judgement makes a dog unsuited for the role of a PPD.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> _If you want a PPD that can go everywhere with you and be your level-headed, obedient companion out in public and still defend you should a serious threat arise, then yes I agree a herding type dog (GSD, Malinois) makes more sense._
> 
> I am very confused by this statement.
> A PPD is supposed to go everywhere with you and be your level-headed, obedient companion. They cannot do their job otherwise. They must therefore be capable of extreme discernment. In many ways they need to be the best of the best. Any instability in temperament or judgement makes a dog unsuited for the role of a PPD.


Yes, a dog, even one that has serious aggression is not worth much as a PP dog if it can not be taken out in public. It is also not a very effective PP dog if it has to be put away when people come to the house. 

Just because a dog is "aggressive" or high in defense doesn't automatically make it a good PP dog. It may just be a weak dog and / or a strong liability.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Protection, searching, any specific task,if it isn't directable and reliable, what good is it?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> Protection, searching, any specific task,if it isn't directable and reliable, what good is it?


Well, bigger is always better……


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I have no reason to disagree with that Jim.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Why would I agree with or have a similar opinion with someone that I know has experience working, training dogs and raising dogs? Because they have experience working, raising and training dogs, it is really kinda simple. There are many people that I agree with on this forum. Based on their posts or knowing them through sport or work, I can tell their knowledge and experience level. With that said, even a new pet owner can make some very good observations and I see many folks that have excellent instincts and excellent posts.


Yet some more subtle implications that my opinion is inherently wrong. Okay...I'll leave that part of the conversation as is since I have no interest in getting into a squabble over ego and personal achievements. 

BTW, I fixed that last part for you:



Slamdunc said:


> I agree that an open mind is a very good thing to have, it will really benefit *everyone*.





Steve Strom said:


> Hey Dalko, did you go see those king shepherds you were planning to ?


I have not visited the breeder in my state yet, but I did meet a few out on some walks. The dogs seemed calm and friendly. None of the owners I talked to were actively involved in IPO or any sort of dog sport (outside of one who does basic/advanced obedience for some AKC competition); so I couldn't really say if there are any, at least in my state, that are being bred and trained for sport/protection purposes.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Tibetan Mastiff's, Ovcharkas, nobody looking for Black Russian Terriers?? Lots of good old Iron Curtain mythology about them. I wonder how that all turned out?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Dalko43 said:


> I have not visited the breeder in my state yet, but I did meet a few out on some walks. The dogs seemed calm and friendly. None of the owners I talked to were actively involved in IPO or any sort of dog sport (outside of one who does basic/advanced obedience for some AKC competition); so I couldn't really say if there are any, at least in my state, that are being bred and trained for sport/protection purposes.


You aren't going to find any in the other 49 either Dalko. I'm not knocking anyone for wanting any breed of dog. I'm saying they aren't worked for a reason. AKC obedience is fine, but its not the same as a dog proving its capable of doing much beyond that.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> But the ones your talking about are so far removed from the ones actually guarding livestock, they'd probably be afraid of the sheep. The whole thing with these different off breeds to me doesn't have to be comparison of drives or anything that narrow.
> 
> You can find examples of all of them being pets, but when it comes to doing something specific,a task. Sport or other, show me someone doing it well enough that you can trust that they know what it actually takes and that they are actually maintaining it in the dogs they're breeding.
> 
> The aggression shown on videos with these ovcharkas isn't anything directable or usable in any other context beyond stay out of my space, and even then you really don't know if they're going to shred someone or run way. Off breeds are just that for a reason.


If you want to rely on these videos to form an opinion of the Caucasian Ovcharka overall, which I'd avoid doing here unless you want to get lectured by Slamdunc, then yes they are unsuitable for just about everything except for guarding gulags in the middle of Russia. 

If you want to go meet them in person, including some that might have different breeding and upbringings, you might have a different opinion on whether or not their defensiveness is usable. Having met a few, they are not all as aggressive as the ones shown on the videos. Some of the owners I have met have made it a point to socialize them early on and thus have no issues taking them on walks or into public areas.

Also, this being a GSD forum, more than a few here are judging and analyzing them through a GSD-oriented lens. Of course Ovcharkas aren't going to be as good as Mali's or GSD's at things like IPO or similar sports; those sports were designed around the temperament and qualities of those herding-type breeds.



Sabis mom said:


> _If you want a PPD that can go everywhere with you and be your level-headed, obedient companion out in public and still defend you should a serious threat arise, then yes I agree a herding type dog (GSD, Malinois) makes more sense._
> 
> I am very confused by this statement.
> A PPD is supposed to go everywhere with you and be your level-headed, obedient companion. They cannot do their job otherwise. They must therefore be capable of extreme discernment. In many ways they need to be the best of the best. Any instability in temperament or judgement makes a dog unsuited for the role of a PPD.


Well I've never seen an official definition for a personal protection dog in the dictionary (though I've seen one for 'guard dog'). I've always thought of it as a term that can be as focused or as vague as the individual wants it to be. For some, protecting the home and people living there may be all that is needed out of a PPD; for others that might not be flexible enough.

But in general, I agree with you that a PPD should be able to accompany its owner just about everywhere. Some LGD's are capable of being trained to that; some aren't. GSD's, Mali's, and similar breeds are likely a better choice for a go-anywhere type of PPD due to reasons of size if nothing else.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> Well, bigger is always better……


Tell that to the people siting next to you on the airplane when you try to fly with the dog at your feet. When I started flying Crank for training and competition I gained a whole new appreciation for having a pocket rocket.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> You aren't going to find any in the other 49 either Dalko. I'm not knocking anyone for wanting any breed of dog. I'm saying they aren't worked for a reason. AKC obedience is fine, but its not the same as a dog proving its capable of doing much beyond that.


To be honest, my desire to really find a breeder and talk to them about their potential to "work" has lessened over time. Between the lack of good info on the breeder's website and meeting the dogs in person, I'm inclined to agree with you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't care about videos of them Dalko, but you just echoed what I said. You can find examples of them being pets. I absolutely compare through a German Shepherd perspective. For good reason.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think anyone with a real PPD - real meaning a dog who will take on a threat until said threat is neutralized- needs much more training in handling the dog than the dog needs training.

How can we expect a dog to make life or death decisions when it comes to a threat, when even humans struggle making that decision? 

Trained police, soldiers, secret service people, all make mistakes, even the best are only human. Yet we expect a dog to never make a mistake as a PPD? Isn't it all about control, and obedience? 

A dog who will really fight a threat needs control. Maybe I have never seen the mythical PPD that has better discernment than a human being.

So, the Ovcharka- yeah, far from a first choice for PPD or sports. Why? Because of a poor base temperament for control, a lack of obedience, little connection to a human, and no stopping point. That dog attacks someone, he's might not stop until the person is actually dead. A GSD or malinois is often happy just to get a good bite in and hang on, or simply bark and hold. 

In my opinion, the Ovcharka's level of defense drive or prey drive is rather irrelevant if those drives can not be controlled because of his base temperament and long-standing breeding to work away from humans among livestock. GSDs and malinois are bred to work closely with their handlers, and you see that in even a real young pup with the amount of attention they give to the handler in training. 

A PPD for sure needs a stable temperament and clear head but if he can't be controlled, a PPD is a liability, not a benefit. So outside of prey-fight-defense drive or whatever you want to label it, I think a PPD needs to have a clear head, and be able to respond to his handler even under stress. 

I just don't understand how we can expect more from a dog, than from a trained, reasoning human being?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Not to be a **** but how many people in this thread have actually trained a CO?


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't care about videos of them Dalko, but you just echoed what I said. You can find examples of them being pets. I absolutely compare through a German Shepherd perspective. For good reason.


Meh...it's an apple to oranges comparison, IMHO of course. Different drives, different breeding, different roles. I favor the way GSD's and other herders work and behave, but I don't think that means the way that they do work is inherently better than how other breeds work.

And in general, a lot on here are using the terms "unstable" and "unusable" when discussing the working drives of the CO. How many people on here have actually worked with, trained, or let alone met a CO? And how many are just basing their opinions on a few youtube clips put up by some Russian owners using questionable (that's putting it politely) training methods? After all, it's not like we've never seen questionable methods used by breeders/trainers for other breeds, like the GSD...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

baillif said:


> not to be a **** but how many people in this thread have actually trained a co?


none.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

What was even being argued again? 

All I know is this. I've seen silky terriers that would fight a battle they couldn't hope to win till they were dead or **** near it. There's individuals within every breed that can do PP work. IME control issues that a handler had on a dog had more to do with the handler than they did the dog regardless of breed. 

Breed is breed. You show me a good balanced dog that is strong, has heart and fire, good temperament, and the desire to work, I don't give a **** if it's a Labradoodle. Every breed has their winners and losers. Generalities can be argued all day, but at the end of the day it's up to finding an individual dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

_How can we expect a dog to make life or death decisions when it comes to a threat, when even humans struggle making that decision? 

Trained police, soldiers, secret service people, all make mistakes, even the best are only human. Yet we expect a dog to never make a mistake as a PPD? Isn't it all about control, and obedience? 

A dog who will really fight a threat needs control. Maybe I have never seen the mythical PPD that has better discernment than a human being._

A PPD should never be going into a 'fight' with any more force then needed. When the threat is neutralized, it's over. Most active LGD's could not do this, their drive is to 'remove' the threat.
I could stop my dog cold with a command, but the reality is that in all situations where she felt compelled to act she instinctively used what was needed to stop the situation. 
And I can tell you that the very few times when I thought she had acted out of line, I was wrong.
In my experience, limited, the obedience must be coupled with the stability and intelligence to know when the handler is wrong. In some situations a PPD needs to act on it's own, ie when the handler is down, or unaware of the threat.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Selection of a PP dog for you depends on what your requirements are. If you're some hermit living on the top of a hill you never have visitors and you want a man stopper to keep people away from the jar of gold and silver bullion you have buried under a stump in the backyard for the end times your options for selection are going to be vastly different from the yuppie that lives in a high rise apartment in Manhattan that has a wife and kids and is in high traffic scenarios everyday. This is not going to be a selection that is made along breed lines it will be made keeping in mind size, temperament and disposition, training level.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Breeds are breeds and they have generalities by design. Show me the co or even Pyrenees since they're more common that has directable, trainable aggression for anything beyond its own self interest of guarding territory and you hoping it doesn't decide that territory includes the sidewalk in front of your house where the neighbors push their stroller. And beyond that, someone passing that into another generation and proving it beyond just telling you its true.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If the dog shows an interest in aggression it can be directed to use it on cue when you make it an operant behavior under the control of a cue regardless of what the original intentions for that aggression was.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Then theory meets reality and results don't match.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Then theory meets reality and results don't match.


Is not the GSD, among other breeds, a good example of this theory meeting reality? The breed was originally used to tend livestock, not to chase down and help apprehend criminals. Granted, selective breeding and focused training has turned the breed (or at least some lines of it) into more of a police/military dog than it ever was originally. But Von Stephanitz, and other trainers of that time, were able to direct the GSD's instincts used for herding towards other endeavors. 

In fact, the whole reason humans even had 'herding' type dogs in the first place was because they were able to domesticate canines and direct their "prey" instincts towards the activity of herding.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Then theory meets reality and results don't match.


People accidentally train dogs to attack people on a cue all the time. It isn't rocket science and it isn't some unproven voodoo just because you don't know what's involved.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, ok.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

oooh got me there guess I'll go home


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Let me know when you find that labradoodle that can do what Crank does.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Then theory meets reality and results don't match.


Before you go home, this is a comment on breed specifics and characteristics. Not a comment on your training skills.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Baillif said:


> People accidentally train dogs to attack people on a cue all the time. It isn't rocket science and it isn't some unproven voodoo just because you don't know what's involved.


While I certainly agree that dogs are trained to bite unintentionally all the time, it doesn't mean these dogs can actually protect anything. 

Teaching a dog to bite, bark, roll over and play dead is easy and not rocket science. There is a little more to training a dog to engage well, with serious intent and aggression. To take the average pet dog and get it to stay in a fight and go forward with true aggression is far more involved. It may not be rocket science, but it is no easy task, if even possible. The vast majority of dogs that may bite, will cut and run when any pressure is applied. Or, when you simply turn to face them. Few of these dogs could never be counted on when the rubber meets the road.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> What was even being argued again?
> 
> All I know is this. I've seen silky terriers that would fight a battle they couldn't hope to win till they were dead or **** near it. There's individuals within every breed that can do PP work. IME control issues that a handler had on a dog had more to do with the handler than they did the dog regardless of breed.
> 
> Breed is breed. You show me a good balanced dog that is strong, has heart and fire, good temperament, and the desire to work, I don't give a **** if it's a Labradoodle. Every breed has their winners and losers. Generalities can be argued all day, but at the end of the day it's up to finding an individual dog.


No, there's not. And in spite of anyone's skill level, you'll never get them to.Its fun to watch Jack Russels or even a Chihuahua going through the motions, but in spite of whatever voodoo you got, going through the motions is all it is.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm obviously not saying every dog of every breed can be made into a man stopper.

What I am saying is I take issue with the idea that you can't take a dog that has shown it will square off with baddie over territory or self preservation and train it to do the same on a cue under control of a handler.

And then I'm saying there are individual dogs like this out there in every breed of you look hard enough. It isn't a breed specific thing.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> No, there's not. And in spite of anyone's skill level, you'll never get them to.Its fun to watch Jack Russels or even a Chihuahua going through the motions, but in spite of whatever voodoo you got, going through the motions is all it is.


Your definition of PP is apparently man stopper only and that isn't the case. If that is your definition of PP work, a dog that has to fight a grown man to the death and win, the GSD certainly isn't the best breed to search for a dog for the job.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

And again I was taking issue with the idea you can't train a CO to direct and aggress. That's crazy talk.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I'm obviously not saying every dog of every breed can be made into a man stopper.
> 
> What I am saying is I take issue with the idea that you can't take a dog that has shown it will square off with baddie over territory or self preservation and train it to do the same on a cue under control of a handler.
> 
> And then I'm saying there are individual dogs like this out there in every breed of you look hard enough. It isn't a breed specific thing.


 Your specifically saying, every breed would have one? Setters? I'd agree that some breeds can probably be territorial and directable, but I want to see the territorial, live stock guardian that can be reliable enough to not fall back on those genetics of acting on its own feelings of being invaded and just how committed they are when directed. Not just some visual conditioned behavior.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Your specifically saying, every breed would have one? Setters? I'd agree that some breeds can probably be territorial and directable, *but I want to see the territorial, live stock guardian that can be reliable enough to not fall back on those genetics of acting on its own feelings of being invaded and just how committed they are when directed. Not just some visual conditioned behavior.*


Come on, really? This is well-trodden territory we are getting into here. The process of finding desirable traits, selective breeding, and focused training has been used over the years to produce all of the functional breeds we have today.

Some LGD's, CO's included, have already been started down the path of PPD or guard dog. You may not like the specific methods being used by the trainers (let's face it, Russians will likely have a different attitude on this sort of thing), but that's a different conversation all-together.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, really. Guard dog isn't the same.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Your specifically saying, every breed would have one? Setters? I'd agree that some breeds can probably be territorial and directable, but I want to see the territorial, live stock guardian that can be reliable enough to not fall back on those genetics of acting on its own feelings of being invaded and just how committed they are when directed. Not just some visual conditioned behavior.


I've seen some super aggressive setters.

The feelings they will have will be the ones that condition to the attack behavior. You have control of these through proper training. Frustration, anger, desire to bite all can be attatched to the attack behavior through training. 

I'll give you an everyday example of how you can change a genetic behavior reliably. Dogs that want to slow down right before an impact with a decoy or helper. Genetically there are dogs that don't do it. Otherwise if you stick a dog that does slow down on a bungee it conditions to turning on the afterburner in the last 5 meters because it experienced the decoy getting away. Take the bungee away and the dog continues to act as if it was there.

If they get aggressive and get pissed and have fight in them you can condition all of that to cues and send them with them experiencing those emotions genuinely.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, really. Guard dog isn't the same.


Well that's all a matter of semantics. PPD, guard dog...one person's definition of either term may differ from someone else's.

If you think that the CO's, and other LGD breeds, can't be trained for _controlled_ and _handler-directed_ protection work (which is what I think you're referring to), why do you think that?

Who's to say that such dogs don't already exist?
And if they don't, who's to say that they can't be bred and trained for that purpose?

Referring back to my previous example, GSD's started off of as livestock tenders, working in pastoral environments, likely with little human contact/interaction outside of their relationship with 1-2 shepherds. Breeding and training has turned them into one of the most widely-utilized working breeds (similar story for the Malinois and other herding types).

I'm not saying the CO will ever be as popular or as widely-used, but what's so impossible about using similar training and breeding methods to mold the breed to a specific purpose?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

But if they don't have it in them, the bungee is only going to be a temporary aid. They'll slow down again.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> But if they don't have it in them, the bungee is only going to be a temporary aid. They'll slow down again.


IME this isn't the case unless they get jammed bad a few times. If that happens it has a tendency to slow any dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Dalko43 said:


> Well that's all a matter of semantics. PPD, guard dog...one person's definition of either term may differ from someone else's.
> 
> If you think that the CO's, and other LGD breeds, can't be trained for _controlled_ and _handler-directed_ protection work (which is what I think you're referring to), why do you think that?
> 
> ...


In just broad, general talk, a guard dog, especially defensive by nature is looking to drive something away because its threatened by it being there. Too defensive generally means not clear headed and you need to tap into the fear to get the aggression. Again, I'm being real general about it, but that's not a good balance to make it something you can do anything with other then let them do what they do.

With too defensive, you get the dog that's bothered by a lot of things that you don't have control over. Prey drive is more directable and can be targeted towards things. They'll go towards it because they want to get there and then the right balance of the other things will keep them there. 

Breeding methods change the breed. You ever read posts here about the changing over time with German Shepherds, just over the last 40yrs? Some people will tell you they aren't even the same breed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

How about this? Put a bungee on a CO and someone start yelling from 50 yards away.Send him and see if he moves.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> IME this isn't the case unless they get jammed bad a few times. If that happens it has a tendency to slow any dog.


I don't see them get jammed like that.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> How about this? Put a bungee on a CO and someone start yelling from 50 yards away.Send him and see if he moves.


If you did this right off the bat without any training there are plenty of prey monkey malinois and GSD that wouldn't react.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't see them get jammed like that.


Start visiting french ring and mondioring clubs where they train leg dogs and you'll see it


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I mean that actually is another example. Leg dogs. Lots of dogs genetically want to hit a standing man up high so they can knock the target down. They show a clear genetic preference for hitting at chest or shoulder level. When they're taught from an early age foundation wise to target legs they go for legs instead of going up. They don't default back to the high hits.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I mean that actually is another example. Leg dogs. Lots of dogs genetically want to hit a standing man up high so they can knock the target down. They show a clear genetic preference for hitting at chest or shoulder level. When they're taught from an early age foundation wise to target legs they go for legs instead of going up. They don't default back to the high hits.


I'd say the genetics are the prey drive and strong desire to bite, once they've been restricted from ever biting somewhere else, they get the satisfaction from what they know. You could probably do something to cause a bite somewhere else, but that would be training, not so much the genetics.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> _some situations a PPD needs to act on it's own, ie when the handler is down, or unaware of the threat._


_

LOL ... well I'm not into the PPD/Sport /LE thing. So I have no idea what my dog would do if we were actually involved in a confrontation with a another person??? But I have seen that decision making "thing" done by my dog. 

We were charged by two dogs?? I told "Rocky stay ... I got this and stepped in front of him as I usually do with dogs or people. 

He's behind me standing calmly as usual. looking pretty bored (I would imagine??) as I dealt with the situation. One dog broke off his charge but the other one kept coming??? 



I braced for impact because, that dog was "still" not getting to my freaking dog!! He then still charging, broke inside of feet feet! I braced for impact and then ... I slipped on the ice and went down!! 

I was "expecting" to be engaged in "ultimate dog fighting" as I struggled to my feet?? Then I heard a loud growl, ... roar from behind me???

Apparently "Rocky" thought ..."OK" ... Dad is down?? I "suppose" it's time to make my "presences known (again) now??? I heard a"roar" and then saw nothing but flashing teeth as "Rocky" stepped over me to defend me??? I still had the leash in my hand and that checked "Rocky" up! But yeah ... that remaining dog, most likely rethought his "life's choices and flat disappeared??? "Stepping up to defend me??" Was nothing I trained??? Doing "that" ... was certainly nothing I had trained?? 


As a "Guard Dog" most likely a CO is a great choice (with good liability coverage) but moving beyond that ... don't know??_


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> In just broad, general talk, *a guard dog, especially defensive by nature is looking to drive something away because its threatened by it being there. Too defensive generally means not clear headed and you need to tap into the fear to get the aggression.* Again, I'm being real general about it, but that's not a good balance to make it something you can do anything with other then let them do what they do.
> 
> With too defensive, you get the dog that's bothered by a lot of things that you don't have control over. Prey drive is more directable and can be targeted towards things. They'll go towards it because they want to get there and then the right balance of the other things will keep them there.


I know you were talking in general terms in the above post, but I just don't agree that all, or even most, LGD breeds are having to tap into their fear or sense of self-preservation in order to deter and/or fight off a threat. After all, they are defending their herd (or whatever they've been assigned to guard), not just themselves, when dealing with predators. They've generally got to have some amount of fighting drive and/or sense of possession in order put themselves between a threat and their herd.

Obviously this behavior will vary among the different LGD breeds. Some are more inclined to hang back with the livestock and are more of a "bark and hold" breed (Great Pyrenees and Mareema for example), while others are much more aggressive about confronting, and eliminating if needed, threats (Caucasian Ovcharkas, Kangals for example).

Whatever drive or instinct you want to attribute it to, that "hold the line" mentality that most of these LGD's have goes well beyond saving their own skin. And I certainly think its usable with the proper training and the right amount of biddability.




Steve Strom said:


> Breeding methods change the breed. You ever read posts here about the changing over time with German Shepherds, just over the last 40yrs? Some people will tell you they aren't even the same breed.


Yes, I agree with that. In fact, that's pretty much what I was saying in my earlier post about the GSD's historical breeding and employment. And I think such purposeful breeding can be used to change or mold other breeds as well.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Hands up, who'd enter a field and steal a Caucasion Shepherds sheep or pretend to attack it's master on front of the dog. 

I'm pretty sure the dog would be on alert if anyone approached the master with ill intent.

Now a red setter might be less intimidating.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

From what I've recently researched in the dogs that developed from the Roman days in European countries, more specifically interior portions of Italy - there were two different type dogs used to do two different functions. One for guard, one for tending the flocks. 

Different skills developed over time to suit the need. This from 9th thru 14th centuries. Very different structure and methods of defending/driving. I don't think they would have dreamed way back then of expecting one breed type to do both jobs. Both extremes were seriously needed and were not just for "show".


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

About two years ago a Jewler from Sansom St, Philadelphia came to me and asked me to train his 8 month Cane Corso for personal protection. First, let me say that this was a very strong and dominant animal with the genetics to do the work. I informed him we would have to do an extensive amount of obedience before we even considered any aggression work. We spent over a year on obedience before I started aggression. But first with the obedience....I had to resort back to training methodology of forty years ago instead of prey motivated training I typically use with herding breeds. ( when in military in early seventies, we had no Malinois or GS with over the top prey drive....none. So the prey oriented methods weren't developed or needed as the dogs were much more balanced in drives....those that were candidates)
Yet, we had very effective obedience and bitework, not flashy or perfect grips, but more than enough to get the job done. So, with this Corso, I went into that mode of training until we got him sound on and off leash....then we started the protection/alert/bite phase that I again employed very little prey methodology but more so defense and fight building until client was satisfied. 
My point is that this dog was capable of protection work reliably, but he needed proper foundation from old school methods. He was a very naturally aggressive and dominant dog...trust me, but we got him to point that he could be walked to car and on streets of Philadelphia, but you would not want to confront this dog nor should you anyway....lol.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> About two years ago a Jewler from Sansom St, Philadelphia came to me and asked me to train his 8 month Cane Corso for personal protection. First, let me say that this was a very strong and dominant animal with the genetics to do the work. I informed him we would have to do an extensive amount of obedience before we even considered any aggression work. We spent over a year on obedience before I started aggression. But first with the obedience....I had to resort back to training methodology of forty years ago instead of prey motivated training I typically use with herding breeds. ( when in military in early seventies, we had no Malinois or GS with over the top prey drive....none. So the prey oriented methods weren't developed or needed as the dogs were much more balanced in drives....those that were candidates)
> Yet, we had very effective obedience and bitework, not flashy or perfect grips, but more than enough to get the job done. So, with this Corso, I went into that mode of training until we got him sound on and off leash....then we started the protection/alert/bite phase that I again employed very little prey methodology but more so defense and fight building until client was satisfied.
> My point is that this dog was capable of protection work reliably, but he needed proper foundation from old school methods. He was a very naturally aggressive and dominant dog...trust me, but we got him to point that he could be walked to car and on streets of Philadelphia, but you would not want to confront this dog nor should you anyway....lol.


Compulsion works. Applied correctly, it works without damaging your relationship with the dog. If a piece of liver doesn't interest the dog, and playing tug or ball isn't rewarding, and the dog is sound and confident, fair correction based training is definitely the way to go. The dogs in the middle (low prey drive, food drive, good fight drive, solid nerves) are the dogs that get the most correction based training. My Corso can definitely take a correction and bounce right back. He is food motivated until distractions come into play and he gets serious. Great for shaping behavior, and then transition to prong or e-collar.


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## Jhon_melt (Mar 28, 2017)

Can a CO be a good guard dog (PPP)? No. Is it still fun owning such a majestic, beautiful, strong, and aggressive dog? yes.

Don't confuse the two together, yes you can own a CO and work EXTREMELY hard into making it a good PPP dog (controlling aggression, socializing, establishing a hierarchy within the family, obedience..etc). But that only begs the question, is it a good PPP breed then? if you have to work that hard to be able to utilize its strengths and make it a good PPP dog, then doesn't that prove that its not a good PPP dog? especially considering the fact that you can put only 10% of that effort into other breeds (GSD, BM..etc) and get similar or even better outcomes 

I know a CO personally; amazing dog, great personality, and majestic overall. But as others said whats the point of having great attributes if it can't be utilized? The CO that I know is extremely aggressive, relatively unstable (compared to GSD, BM, or even some other mastiffs) 

The ability to defend a family or home from an intruder is only one element in what makes a good PPP dog, at the end of the day even if a PPP dog finds itself having to defend its home/people, that would be only be a few minutes in his/her 15 years of living, the rest of that 15 years he will be a normal pet. The CO that I know once jumped on one of the members of his family while she was walking towards him with his food bowl. Although I like that dog but I don't let him get near my face, as I'm afraid that I will do something that he might perceive as threat, then bites my face. its small things like this.

Yes if you work hard enough you will most likely be able to avoid most problems like this, but again that begs the question.... you get the idea

But its still a cool breed, and a good alternative for people who like owning wild animals (Wolves, Coyotes, Tigers, Lions, Cougars, Cheetahs ..etc) because it has the same level of courage, aggression, size, beauty..etc as some of these animals while still being a domesticated animal.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Interesting thoughts about them Jhon. How about King Shepherds? Have you ever come across one, separate of a couch?


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## Jhon_melt (Mar 28, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Interesting thoughts about them Jhon. How about King Shepherds? Have you ever come across one, separate of a couch?



Aren't King Shepherds supposed to be a bigger, and mellower version of GSDs? The only time that I ever came across one was in pet smart for only a few minutes. That dog was huge, but also very calm and friendly.


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## Bjax (Nov 23, 2016)

Just looked at the website of the breeder posted by the OP. Those 'brag stories" are horrifying, the only one that doesn't straight up show a dog that is liability is the one about the ex-husband. I don't see how they are demonstrating that the dogs can tell threat from non-threat.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Great video on their real job;


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Just a FYI - King shepherds, the REAL King shepherd, branched off from the Shiloh shepherd, when their breeder refused to follow the strict breeding guidelines laid down by Shiloh breed founder, Tina Barber. Tina took her to court, and won, and she had to change the name of the dogs she was breeding.

Many people try to market oversized GSDs as Kings, but they are not the real Kings. It's just a marketing ploy, mainly for dogs that can't be registered with the SV because they are over the standard height.

The breed founder is Shelly Watts-Cross: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Shepherd. The true Kings CANNOT be registered as GSDs, because Tina Barber had already outcrossed her Shilohs to a dog that was part giant malamute (Secret Sampson-Woo). I've heard from a reputable source that Sampson was actually a purebred Mackenzie Valley timber wolf, not a malamute.

Personally, I would want nothing to do with either breed.


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