# Limited Reg- A common practice for breeders?



## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

Do most breeders now just give limited registration to every puppy, with a set of rules/guidelines for switching to full if they wish to do so at a later date? I wasn't sure if this was the more accepted practice now. 

Also, what would the purpose be for doing early spay/neuters on a litter of pups before they are sold, from a breeder, and not a shelter? A friends parent purchased a goldendoodle (yes, I know) for like, $1,000 (!!!) a few years back and he was already neutered when they got him at 8 or 9 weeks. 

Maybe this is a Goldendoodle thing because I found this site : http://www.springviewdoodles.com/early_spay.php

The prices are astronomical..one site charges up to $3,500 for a mini version.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I can tell you what I plan to do with Kaynya's litter.

First, owners must sign a contract that says the dog will NOT be altered until at LEAST 8 months of age. I would prefer for females to go through one heat cycle and males to be 12 months.

I do NOT believe in prepubescent altering of animals.

All the pups will be registered with AKC in MY name and when the owners provide proof that the dog has been sterilized I will do a transfer to their name (if they want).

Any pup that is sold to someone planning to show in the breed ring will be sold on a co-ownership only.

NONE of these pups will be sold with any breeding rights since this is a first time breeding for both Kaynya and the stud. I want to see what my girl produces before I allow anyone else to pass along her genes.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Lauri - Can the dog compete in other AKC "stuff" if registered to you?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Barb,

Yes they can. The owner would just be listed as the "agent". (Just like they do when the owner has someone else show the dog in conformation. 

(Unless the rules have been changed.)


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

To the OP,

No, "most" breeders don't do limited for every puppy. But quite a few DO.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDBarb,
> 
> Yes they can. The owner would just be listed as the "agent". (Just like they do when the owner has someone else show the dog in conformation.
> 
> (Unless the rules have been changed.)


Ahhh I see, thanks Tracy


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDTo the OP,
> 
> No, "most" breeders don't do limited for every puppy. But quite a few DO.


Wouldn't that make the most sense? In terms of protecting the dogs I mean. Yes, reputable breeders are screening people as much as possible, but you never really know. Just because someone buys a "show quality" dog doesn't mean they have any intentions of showing..but perhaps breeding? 

Also, limited registration isn't a 100% guarantee either, correct? I have heard of BYBs and puppy mills saying one dog is the parent when it's not true. I wonder if this happens often...?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The only caveat is the WDA rule of breed surveys, showing and limited registration. I brought this up before.

If someone does a SCH1 one weekend and then wants to quickly do a show rating/breed survey, they can not unless the paperwork has aleady been switched to full ownership. And that means signed by the breeder and processed through AKC, which can be 1-3 weeks....

And with the economy, a lot of clubs are trying to do combo trials/shows/bs on the same weekend (our club does that) to help out people that do this.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.Lauri - Can the dog compete in other AKC "stuff" if registered to you?


The only limitation with showing in AKC on this is that if the Co-owner has titled a dog, or been listed as Co on a dog who has titled all dogs co-owned by them would have to be shown in Novice B for their CD... Novice A is for novice dogs AND owners. 

Not sure about other titles, or organizations, but may be simular things there.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

But from the sounds of it, the owner won't be listed as the "co-owner". (Unless they are planning on showing in conformation.)


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17s
> Also, limited registration isn't a 100% guarantee either, correct?


Correct. Look at all of the people that breed puppies and don't register them at all. OR they register them with one of the "BYB" made up registries.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

or just sell them as "parents registed" and come up with some reason that pups weren't. 

the registries don't care and the buyers of most of those pups don't care.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Agreed. While I think limited registration is a good idea and worth a shot, it is by no means a guarantee that a dog won't end up in a BYB situation as there are lots of junk registries and lots of people who will buy an unregistered dog.

The only way to make absolutely sure that no dog you produce goes on to either be bred or produce oops litters is to alter the dog before placement. However, few breeders do this because most do not believe in pediatric S/N, so they sell the dogs intact and hope that they won't be bred. The better breeders screen homes carefully in an attempt to select owners who will be responsible but again, there's no way to guarantee it as even responsible owners can miss the early signs of heat, leave a gate unlocked etc.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I think it must be understood that even though a dog is sold with an AKC Limited registration - it does not mean that the new owner can not breed the animal. The AKC Limited registration simply means that any pups produced by a "Limited" AKC registered dog can not be registered with the AKC.

S/N is a great service but it should be done later rather than early. Any alteration before the 1st year is not acceptable IMO. I would rather wait until the after the 2nd heat cycle for females and after the 2 or 3 year for males (depending on how long it takes to be physically grown).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocI think it must be understood that even though a dog is sold with an AKC Limited registration - it does not mean that the new owner can not breed the animal. The AKC Limited registration simply means that any pups produced by a "Limited" AKC registered dog can not be registered with the AKC.


Very good point. It doesn't prevent dogs from being bred, only having their offspring AKC registered. And frankly, it doesn't prevent that either. There are ways to take a non-AKC registered dog, particularly if it's registered with another registry like CKC, UKC, etc... and get full AKC registration papers on it. I know 2 people recently who have done it. So there are ways around Limited, and even ways to get the offspring of Limited dogs FULL AKC registration.









But especially when coupled with good screening practices and keeping in touch with and following up with puppy buyers, it can certainly help provide a safety net.

All of our pups are sold on Limited. The only exception is when we sell dogs to other countries where the owner wouldn't be able to get the dog registered in their own country if it had AKC Limited.

We will lift after hip/elbow certs and working title. If we ran into the case where someone wanted to do conformation showing, needed full to get a breed survey, we may lift that early depending on the situation and mostly on who that owner is and how much we can trust them. But it would be handled on a case by case basis and we wouldn't sell the pup on Full just because the owner thought they might like to do those things in the future. We'd wait until they were ready to do those things and actually needed the appropriate paperwork.

As for pediatric spay/neuter. No way! I do not agree with that at all. While it is the only way to make 100% sure a dog isn't bred there are many problems with this. 

First, maybe some of those pups will turn out to be breedworthy and should be bred. But how do you know which is which at 8-9weeks old? You don't! How does a breeder or anyone preserve the breed and carry on a bloodline if every pup is eliminated from being a breeding candidate right off the bat? For breeds to continue and improve, that requires not only putting a stop to bad breeding, but encouraging good breeding.

Second, I do not believe it is mentally or physically healthy or appropriate for the dog. Let the dog grow up. Hormones are a part of that, they aren't just there for reproduction. We have no problem with people spaying/neutering, and if we had a pup with a major breed fault it would probably be sold on a contract requiring spay/neuter, but not until maturity.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I concur.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I sell my puppies on either a limited registration or a co-ownership. To have either changed the dog must pass 
OFA's on hips and elbows and have a training title (something I can check on -- WDA, AKC, UKC, etc.) If the dog fails his OFA's I will sign off on the co-ownership with proof of spay/neuter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So if your pup goes to someone who gives it to someone else who abuses it or trains it to bite, and it bites someone, will you then be liable, as it is registered to you?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: selzerSo if your pup goes to someone who gives it to someone else who abuses it or trains it to bite, and it bites someone, will you then be liable, as it is registered to you?


Well, that isn't as much of a worry with Cresteds but I see what you are saying.

It's all in the wording of the contract. The contract will state that they are not allowed to give away/sell the dog - ever. If they cannot keep it, at ANY time, it comes back to me. Period. If they have someone that wants it that person can go through ME to get the dog at that point.

As far as liability goes - I'll have to ask my lawyer about that.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I think those clauses are important to have but do want people to know that buyers violate them all the time. We've got the same clauses in our adoption contracts and we screen our adopters VERY carefully, nevertheless, people still sometimes dump a dog at a shelter rather than call us and return it to us. We only find out about it because we microchip everything. Add to that the fact that a buyer may have a financial incentive to sell the puppy rather than return it to the breeder and the risk goes up further. I still think it's worth including, just don't want people to depend on it. Regular follow ups to see about the care and wellbeing of the animals sold/placed are critical.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I am on the fence about limited registration. If a male dog is of good quality, should he be removed from the gene pool just because he happens to live with people who aren't interested in titling him? This is a real concern with low number breeds and there are some breeds where it is the norm for owners are required to leave their males intact for several years. 

I personally screen homes, get references and don't sell to someone that I don't feel will be a good home. The fact is, if someone is going to be dishonest and breed a dog despite agreeing that the dog wouldn't be bred unless XYZ terms were meant (or not at all), they probably aren't going to care if the puppies aren't able to be AKC registered - they can always get APRI papers or another "easy" registry for the puppies. And the pet buying public doesn't seem to care or know the difference. 

IME it is actually much harder to get pet owners to keep their dogs intact for any amount of time. Most have bought into the widespread propaganda that spayed and neutered dogs are "happier and healthier" and have vets who are pushing altering at 4-6 months. The majority of pet puppies I have sold were altered before I would have liked them to be.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I sell pups on limited with no breeding clauses in teh contract. I know that will not stop an unscrupulous person from selling unregistered pups if they really want to. I hope that I am sucessful in picking out ethical owners. In certain cases, males only, I will leave papers open, on a contract for no breeding until hips/title are done....frankly, very few males get breedings anyway. 

If I have a dog with a person who is titling and koering, and I am confident the person is going forward and needs the papers open for SV elbows or if koer is imminent, I will release them...I just did Furious' change as Dan has gotten her digital x-rays transferred to film, and he will submit everything for her 'a' stamp (she is already OFA Good/Normal) - and I know after he comes back from the WUSV, he will be doing her BH and Schh1...so I will consider a change on a case by case basis!

Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17sDo most breeders now just give limited registration to every puppy, with a set of rules/guidelines for switching to full if they wish to do so at a later date? I wasn't sure if this was the more accepted practice now.


In the US, very few breeders are 100% limited registration all the time from the get go, no matter who the buyer is. Chris Wild is one on this board that I know of that started and stayed with limited until all requirements are met. I think she mentioned that one dog that went to Canada was the exception, but that was it.

That takes consistency as a breeder and follow through.

In Europe, there is no limited registration. So, if someone buys a young dog/puppy from Europe, they are full registration. If SV, to get the pink papers, both parents have to be titled and breed surveyed, per the SV breeding requirements.

In regards to the spay and neuter, definitely later is better.


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