# Breeding a dog with PTSD



## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

So this question is a bit to check myself. This is not about a GSD breeder btw. All quotes are from the breeder.

If you had a dog that worked well at their job but had "deep seeded problems" and "extreme baggage and doggy PTSD" would you breed that dog? 

This dog cannot be in crates or tight spaces with other dogs due to something that happened when they were young. The dog works well (herding) and is titling in that sport. The dog is described as "not crazy or aggressive" but when she went into a dog igloo and one of her 4 week old puppies ran in after she attacked it. Then it happened again with another one of the puppies and she caused a fatal injury, a puncture wound to the skull. 

Seems to me with all the solid dogs around, why breed a dog with PTSD and take the risk? 

I'm curious what the breeder's thoughts are on this scenario.

P.S. The puppy that died was supposed to be going to good friends of mine.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No, I would never breed if she is aggressive to puppies, hers or any others. Sad that she was allowed to do it in the first place.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

A dog that was unable to recover from an incident, that now caused fatal injuries to her puppies, is not a dog of sound nerve or temperament. I would not breed the dog again.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

It was her first litter. So if you did not know about the puppy aggression but you did know about the PTSD thing... reactivity... does your opinion change?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I would have to know more about the "incident" that caused the so called PTSD. Honestly I don't know. You can't take away the violence towards the puppies and you must take that into consideration. Would it have kept me from breeding her the first time. Maybe not. But repeating it, absolutely not. The dam has sooooo much input into the puppies personality. No way would I ever consider breeding a puppy killing bitch. At least a purposefully puppy killing bitch. Had she accidentally laid on one and killed it, a whole other story.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> A dog that was unable to recover from an incident, that now caused fatal injuries to her puppies, is not a dog of sound nerve or temperament. I would not breed the dog again.




I agree with this. 

And given the quotes by the breeder, I wouldn't breed a dog like that in the first place.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When the pups are six months old, how are they going to be temperament wise? Stable, able to recover easily, or nervy? I would not even want a puppy from that litter, even if it is her first. 
Like you said, there are dogs that are solid and breedworthy, why breed a dog with supposed "PTSD". Imprinting from mom is a huge part of a pups development.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The PTSD thing sounds like a major excuse for an unstable temperament. Can a dog being subjected to war, or starvation, or fire, carry some of that with them? Maybe. Not all dogs do though. Dogs live in the moment, and can overcome some pretty horrible stuff. 

The question is can temperament issues that only come out because of extreme circumstances be ignored when we consider breeding? I don't think so. 

We would have never known that dog had some deep seeded issues if it hadn't been trapped in a fire or beaten and shot and hung by an abusive owner. But we shouldn't ignore those issues in questions of breeding the dog/bitch just because would wouldn't have known of them otherwise.

A number of dogs are going to be bred that shouldn't be bred, that had not previously given any reason to believe that they would attack puppies or pass on poor temperament. When we have a dog that is displaying character problems we should always err on the side of not re-producing the problem. Everything else can be weighed with the risks, but poor temperament is the one thing that will degrade the breed as a whole. 

And bitches imprint on the puppies their character, much more so than the dog. 50% of the genes come from sire and 50% from dam, we have no control over that once the breeding choice has been made. But a bitch then is with her puppies for 8 weeks after whelping. Some of that period is totally critical. If you have a nervous, high strung bitch, a bitch that is aggressive toward children or old people or men in baseball caps, a bitch that freaks out when the door bell rights, or if there is a storm, or if the guy next door is blowing off his elephant gun, well, some of the pups are going to pick that instability up, and then it doesn't matter if it is genetic or acquired, it is acquired in the crucial period in the pup's life when good experiences are very, very good, and bad experiences are very, very bad.

I think that when we consider breeding a dog who has temperament/character problems, we need to look at our breeding program and examine why it is so important to breed this dog or bitch. The problem is, it is hard to be honest about our dogs, when the answers mean terrible disappointment for not doing what we so anticipated. And so we make excuses, and turn a blind eye. And then the outcome is a bitch who attacks her puppies, or a litter of puppies that are incredibly unstable. 

If you have a dog with deep seeded issues, however acquired, alter the animal and give it the home it deserves.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Thanks folks. Wasn't sure if I was being too harsh in my response to my friends. I hope they go with a different breeder. The above scenario and that the breeder picked a female for herself in the first couple of days (had to be based on color alone) raised some flags for me.

Appreciate you perspectives!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'm not a breeder but I've been in rescue for 15 years. I've seen dogs that had horrible things done to them and didn't have PTSD. Sounds like this dog has some naturally weak temperament to begin with.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

a dog with deep seated (NOT seeded) trauma reactivity?????? a claustrophobic dog maybe? The dog has some strong defects in environmental nerves and that would have ruled her out of ever having a litter in my world. And then to kill puppies????? That dog would have been spayed at the next possible vet opening.

As others have said, there are dogs who have been abused horribly, and have had loving temperaments. There are dogs who have wonderful homes and have been treated well their whole lives who have insecure, fear aggression - behavior that is still driven by the dog's genetics even when triggered by experience. 

No - the dog is NOT a candidate for breeding and it is irresponsible of anyone to breed dogs with strong genetic nerve failures or who consistantly produce a high percentage of poor nerves, even when the female appears sound....

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes the problems are deep seated , but maybe deep seeded wasn't an inappropriate spoonerism. 
Seems like the maternal issues sprouted ! Maybe other problems are taking root.
Breeding ? -- NO . Unequivocally NO. 
Environmental soundness , which includes (in my book of standards) absence of weather/storm
issues , is top importance .


"The dog works well (herding) and is titling in that sport"
These titles mean next to nothing . 
Now if it were titles gained from competition pitting farm / working / functioning herding dogs 
seeking out the best of the best then there would be value.


All I see on the herding trials is barely in control prey chasing that would never be tolerated by 
a person needing to rely on a steady herder . A great deal of the dog's character is to be seen in the down time
when sheep are allowed to graze in peace .


I don't know who or where the terminology PTSD came from when applied to a dog's temperament .
I figure it is used to gain sympathy or empathy , emotional tugs , for a dog that is patently not sound.
Poor maternal skills are passed on through the generations. Easy to end though. Stop breeding these
animals.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Thanks everyone. 

I don't know the breeder or the dog so I can't give anymore info, but like I said, some red flags for me. I am trying to turn my friend on to other breeders. Interesting info on the herding competitions Carmen. 

Re PTSD. It is something I work with a lot in humans. For humans it is a constellation of symptoms (hyper vigilance, maladaptive avoidance strategies (anxiety), intrusive memories/thoughts but more and more including emotional dysregulation) rather than something that can be pinpointed. One of the things that I did think was interesting and I have no idea if it translates to dogs is this. People with PTSD have a higher risk of hypocortisolemia. When cortisol is low the tendency is for the immune system to amp up so the increased risk for people with PTSD to have co-occuring auto-immune diseases. There were some clinical studies done in Canada that documented that woman with PTSD can pass on hypocortisolemia to their children in vitro. Hence the transgenerational impact of PTSD. I'm probably the only geek that finds that fascinating but there you have it. Could it happen in dogs?

Anyhow.... I digress... thank you for responding.

Edit: Oh and yes.. deep seated versus deep seeded. I think I like my version! ;-)


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree with the other posters on not breeding this dog. Interesting on the maternal passing on of PTSD to offspring. I sometimes wonder if the development of PTSD is linked to other traits, like mental illness, possibly and those genes are "turned on" by traumatic experience and then passed on. Curious, and a consideration in dogs, particularly those coming back from war with PTSD like symptoms.

I would never breed a dam who showed aggression to her puppies. The maternal instincts are a beautiful thing, and should be very strong, and I would never take a pup from an aggressive dam or breed one.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think the PTSD term was coined for the war dogs.. Mostly due to them coming home and going into civilian life before they decompressed and were acclimated into their new role of family dog.. Many were being destroyed as evil and vicious, when they were just doing their job which was obviously much more aggressive and indiscriminate (bite if it isn't your platoon or handler)... Once it was learned that the home bound dogs needed decompression time and resocialization in the world they would live in, it was given them.. But PTSD in dogs is not like it is in humans.. Dogs live in the here and now and don't actively reflect on past traumas or the why's of why they do things... 

Agree with everyone, definitely a no for breeding.. Glad your friends didn't get the puppy (although I'm sorry it died) Dutch..


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