# West German Showlines & Czech/DDR Working Lines?



## Sands18

Even though I won’t be able to get a dog for at least 2 years, a GSD is on my potential breeds list. I’ve also decided it would be neat to look at some breeders while I wait, especially if there are any long waiting lists. One breeder close to me has got me wondering though.

His dogs are a combination of West German showline and Czech/DDR working lines. I’ve never heard of this before, I always thought breeders always stuck to either working or show. Do you think he could be trying to breed dogs that can be fairly calm family dogs, but also have the potential and drive to work when needed/desired? Or maybe that as well as try and have a healthier all around dog by mixing the different lines? He also provides all his dogs’ pedigrees right on the website.

http://blackgoldshepherds.com


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## Curing

I've seen a few breeders like that while I was looking around for my next dog too. I believe they're considered outcross breeders and work to breed a nice balanced dog with traits from both the show and working lines. Other then that I don't know much about them, but I'd love to see them in action and wonder if they would be the cross to go with if someone was looking to do both conformation and sport?


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## wolfstraum

I consider that a very very commercial way of breeding to provide puppies to the companion dog market. A person selling these kinds of pups can cite all the reasons each type is desirable and claim that you are getting the best of both....marketing marketing marketing....

a very very few people seem to do show/working crosses and continue forward with their own....I don't personally see the point, but then they don't understand my perspective either  


Lee


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## R3m0

wolfstraum said:


> I consider that a very very commercial way of breeding to provide puppies to the companion dog market. A person selling these kinds of pups can cite all the reasons each type is desirable and claim that you are getting the best of both....marketing marketing marketing....
> 
> a very very few people seem to do show/working crosses and continue forward with their own....I don't personally see the point, but then they don't understand my perspective either
> 
> 
> Lee


this is very good to know, thank you


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## Ken Clean-Air System

I agree with Lee, most breeders that advertise mixing lines are using it as a marketing technique.

There is no reason a working line can't be a great companion/family dog. You don't need to mix show lines in for that. You just need the right breeder and the right dog. I have 2 working line dogs here, they are both great family dogs and wonderful companions.

Alternatively, from the right breeder, a show line dog should plenty of drive to work.

I prefer working lines, but if you find the correct breeder of any line GSD, they should be able to match you with the right dog for you.


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## Sunsilver

On looking at this guy's dogs, he has me scratching my head. He has dogs from American show lines, Irish and U.K. show lines, German working and show lines, Czech dogs, dogs from Holland and dogs from Hungary! 

Most breeders who really know their stuff stick with a certain line (okay, it's very common to mix working lines from different countries, such as Czech and W. German) and learn everything they can about it to produce the best possible dogs.

I think if I were going to buy a dog from him, my first question would be "What is the goal of your breeding program?"


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## lhczth

While I agree with Lee that in most cases it is a marketing ploy, there are a few breeders who have done show/working or working/show crosses and do move forward with those breedings. I have a good friend who has show lines that has already done one show/working cross (unfortunately only got a single male pup) and plans on doing another this year. She is looking for a female or two to move forward with.


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## Nigel

My limited take on mixing lines like this would be the potential lack of consistency in the litters. You may end up with pups all over the place with temperament and drives. My females are from a mixed line litter and they're nothing alike. If my experience with mixed line dogs is close to the norm, matching pups to perspective buyers could be problematic.


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## lhczth

A good breeder should still be able to match pups up with buyers especially if they know their female well and know the male. You can get a lack of consistency when ever doing a cross into different lines. There are always risks. 

BTW, I have no interest in doing working/SL crosses. Just know people who have been successful using these crosses and know that it was quite common in the history of our breed (up until very recently).


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## wolfstraum

I agree that there are breeders who do this with a long range goal in mind....a breeder brings in a half showline dog and goes forward with working lines....rarely the other way around nowadays....

But for those bringing in showlines, IMO they can do a relative outcross within the working lines instead....besides or instead of using a titled and koered show dog, I have found dogs with real world working experience and credentials who have produced super well....SAR dogs, narcotics dogs, certified and licensed tracking dogs are out there and can offer alternatives to the current lines so widespread


Lee


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## carmspack

do you know what the problem is ?

I have said this before , many times, and stand by it ---- the West German show , West German working including Czech and DDR genetics , and American show are so long divided that they are separate and distinct breeds.

I can research some Czech pedigrees and find a single one time introduction to Canto Wienerau and then the breeding selection went back immediately to familiar "Czech" genetics . 

some breeders who cobble together these diverse sub groups , have no understanding or expertise in what each has to offer -- using "the golden middle" and seeming virtuous


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## Thecowboysgirl

Besides markrting, what is to be gained from crossing wgsl and working line?


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Besides markrting, what is to be gained from crossing wgsl and working line?


I'm certainly no expert by any stretch, but I would guess, for show lines, introducing some WL blood could help alleviate some of the DNA bottleneck that exists in the lines. For WL, introducing show line blood for.... Conformation maybe?

Seems to me it makes more sense introducingsome some WL blood to show line dogs makes more sense than the other way around... But that is just my perspective as an enthusiast and lover of the breed.


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## lhczth

For show lines adding in working lines can strengthen character, hardness and working drives. It also adds some diversity. This is especially true for those SL breeders who actually enjoy working and titling their own dogs and are frustrated by finding suitable SL males. 

A working line person would actually have to think the current SL structure is correct to want to use them to improve structure.  IMO we have enough other options without having to go that route.


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## cliffson1

Nigel said:


> My limited take on mixing lines like this would be the potential lack of consistency in the litters. You may end up with pups all over the place with temperament and drives. My females are from a mixed line litter and they're nothing alike. If my experience with mixed line dogs is close to the norm, matching pups to perspective buyers could be problematic.


I always thought that the breed never had uniformity UNTIL lines were formed. Before lines, the breed had all different colors, body types, and temperaments in both performance ring and show ring. Dogs from same litter became show dog and police dog.....I guess these dogs from all over the place; when the breed was a versatile dog that could do seeing eye work, herding, Police, as well as family dog died, from a lack of consistency. I mean how could you assure that everyone got the right dog if we didn’t have uniformity of color, temperament, and type.


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## Nigel

cliffson1 said:


> I always thought that the breed never had uniformity UNTIL lines were formed. Before lines, the breed had all different colors, body types, and temperaments in both performance ring and show ring. Dogs from same litter became show dog and police dog.....I guess these dogs from all over the place; when the breed was a versatile dog that could do seeing eye work, herding, Police, as well as family dog died, from a lack of consistency. I mean how could you assure that everyone got the right dog if we didn’t have uniformity of color, temperament, and type.


Just how much variance within a litter was there back then? Couch potatoes and police/ipo prospects all in one litter? This would surprise me, but Idk I wasn't around back then, what I see today is the norm with 3 distinct lines. And the breeders I see mixing those lines today are not the ones Lisa is referring to who are doing it carefully and purposefully with goals in mind. 

Many of us get our start in the GSD world with a byb. Some will come from breeders mixing lines for marketing or availability of dogs. I could be wrong, but with these breedings I would think there is a greater probability of variance within a litter, more so than those you are referring to from dogs/litters of the past.


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## carmspack

Nigel said:


> Just how much variance within a litter was there back then? Couch potatoes and police/ipo prospects all in one litter? This would surprise me, but Idk I wasn't around back then, what I see today is the norm with 3 distinct lines. And the breeders I see mixing those lines today are not the ones Lisa is referring to who are doing it carefully and purposefully with goals in mind.
> 
> Many of us get our start in the GSD world with a byb. Some will come from breeders mixing lines for marketing or availability of dogs. I could be wrong, but with these breedings I would think there is a greater probability of variance within a litter, more so than those you are referring to from dogs/litters of the past.


It wasn't that there was a wide variance within in a litter --- EACH and EVERY pup was endowed with a balance of traits selected for and available from the parent stock.
There was a greater likelihood of being versatile and multi-functional -- not the specialized groups that we have today , some of which are totally devoid of some basics , which limit them to a particular life-role.


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## cliffson1

Nigel said:


> Just how much variance within a litter was there back then? Couch potatoes and police/ipo prospects all in one litter? This would surprise me, but Idk I wasn't around back then, what I see today is the norm with 3 distinct lines. And the breeders I see mixing those lines today are not the ones Lisa is referring to who are doing it carefully and purposefully with goals in mind.
> 
> Many of us get our start in the GSD world with a byb. Some will come from breeders mixing lines for marketing or availability of dogs. I could be wrong, but with these breedings I would think there is a greater probability of variance within a litter, more so than those you are referring to from dogs/litters of the past.


I think I said show and police/ performance dogs from same litters....would surprise you huh? Look up Bernd/Bodo v Lierberg, or Marko vom Cellerland or Mutz v d Peltzerferm or Frei v d Gugge ......these were all VA in show and directly produced Multiple dogs that were Bundesseigerprufund in IPO and VA in show and police dogs. As a matter of fact Bodo was German Seiger in show, his brother was VA3 and for twenty year period Bernd had produced the most participants in the Bundesseigerprufund ( National Sch championships in Germany) ....dogs at highest level in show and performance from same stock. 
I know that is not the case today, but not because it’s not possible.


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## Thecowboysgirl

cliffson1 said:


> I always thought that the breed never had uniformity UNTIL lines were formed. Before lines, the breed had all different colors, body types, and temperaments in both performance ring and show ring. Dogs from same litter became show dog and police dog.....I guess these dogs from all over the place; when the breed was a versatile dog that could do seeing eye work, herding, Police, as well as family dog died, from a lack of consistency. I mean how could you assure that everyone got the right dog if we didn’t have uniformity of color, temperament, and type.


Did they disappear because it was the wrong thing or because of fads where people got carried away with certain stuff?

Was it really impossible to figure out what pup belonged where when there was just 1 german shepherd? Are things better now?


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## Nigel

Thecowboysgirl;8927353[B said:


> ]Did they disappear because it was the wrong thing or because of fads where people got carried away with certain stuff[/B]?
> 
> Was it really impossible to figure out what pup belonged where when there was just 1 german shepherd? Are things better now?


because black and red dogs = $$$


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> I think I said show and police/ performance dogs from same litters....would surprise you huh? Look up Bernd/Bodo v Lierberg, or Marko vom Cellerland or Mutz v d Peltzerferm or Frei v d Gugge ......these were all VA in show and directly produced Multiple dogs that were Bundesseigerprufund in IPO and VA in show and police dogs. As a matter of fact Bodo was German Seiger in show, his brother was VA3 and for twenty year period Bernd had produced the most participants in the Bundesseigerprufund ( National Sch championships in Germany) ....dogs at highest level in show and performance from same stock.
> I know that is not the case today, but not because it’s not possible.



And Bodo was also am American champion. Just think of how different the breed here would have been if he had won Grand Victor instead of Lance of Franjo. :smile2:


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## lhczth

There never was just one GSD. There has always been some split. The SV just did a much better job of keeping the chasm narrower, maintaining structure and work, until a rather flashy dog, Canto Wienerau, and the type he produced impressed the world buyers. The rest is history.


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## Nigel

cliffson1 said:


> I think I said show and police/ performance dogs from same litters....would surprise you huh? Look up Bernd/Bodo v Lierberg, or Marko vom Cellerland or Mutz v d Peltzerferm or Frei v d Gugge ......these were all VA in show and directly produced Multiple dogs that were Bundesseigerprufund in IPO and VA in show and police dogs. As a matter of fact Bodo was German Seiger in show, his brother was VA3 and for twenty year period Bernd had produced the most participants in the Bundesseigerprufund ( National Sch championships in Germany) ....dogs at highest level in show and performance from same stock.
> I know that is not the case today, but not because it’s not possible.


 Marko vom Cellerland I recall reading a bit on, but not the others so I will check them out.


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## carmspack

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Did they disappear because it was the wrong thing or because of fads where people got carried away with certain stuff?
> 
> Was it really impossible to figure out what pup belonged where when there was just 1 german shepherd? Are things better now?


oh there was a reason and the time-line is very easy to pin point

follow the discussion on iceberg breeders -- see how the manipulation of http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


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## cliffson1

lhczth said:


> And Bodo was also am American champion. Just think of how different the breed here would have been if he had won Grand Victor instead of Lance of Franjo. :smile2:


Thank You! America would have to import dogs to get top working stock!


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## cliffson1

Nigel said:


> Marko vom Cellerland I recall reading a bit on, but not the others so I will check them out.


Try Frei v d Gugge who was VA3 in show!!! He produced Enno v Aftreftal(sp), who won National Sch title with 299 I think. Enno produced Drigon and Falk, both National Sch champions with 298 scores out of 300.
Today do you think a VA dog could produce a Regional champion, much less a National champion in work???
Bodo was an American champion as Lisa said, the show people wouldn’t breed to him but he became a foundation dog for seeing-eye dogs back then. Do you know the nerves it takes to consistently produce good guide dog stock??? No bitework needed but rock solid nerves, yet I don’t see dogs out of show lines from America or Germany being used as guide dogs anymore....what happened?


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Both of my current dogs go back to Bernd, and Marko, among some (all?) the others mentioned, but I am curious... What happened to Bodo's line here in America? Are there still American bred dogs that go back to Bodo? American working line? If not, then why wasn't that line continued? It has always surprised me that there has never been an established American working line. We have had working GSDs here in the US for many decades, but they all still are European lines, yet for the show ring, there are distinct European and American lines.


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## wolfstraum

Tom, our dogs are some of the closest you can find to Marko.....your Omen is line bred on Xito, so backmassed on him....also his sire backmassed on Enno I believe...


I doubt that the ASL people going to Bernd rather than Lance would have resulted in any more positive way in the long run....when you start back massing in all four quarters of a pedigree and have any dog 15-25 times, you are going to bottleneck....people are doing it in Europe....the Czechs started outcrossing as they were starting to bottleneck and brought in Aly Vodersteinwald via N1- Equidis and you can now hardly find a czech dog here in the states without him.....

Breeding selection was made for a look/type/specific physical characteristics - bloodlines be darned - by the ASLs and I think they would have taken longer to get the silly putty stretchy squished flattened look, but that was their aim....


Lee


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Yup, noticed Marko as well as Bernd, Mutz, and a few others in Omen's, as well as Jasmine's pedigrees. 

It still surprises me that an American working line was never established around Bodo's line and progeny. It's a shame that American lines seem to have gone completely away from that stock and to what we have today in the ASL dogs. Nothing against ASL or even German Show Lines, they just aren't my cup of tea, or what I consider to be the original intention for the breed.


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## Sunsilver

I once asked Fred Lanting about breeders who had used Bodo, and tried to find those lines in American and Canadian dogs. Only a couple of the kennels that bred to him were still around, but since his lines weren't what was winning in the show ring, they have died out, or become so mixed with the show lines based on Lance and his sons that they have lost whatever unique characteristics they once had. 

Most breeders just don't get how serious genetic bottle necks can be. I know of one breeder who tried to stay away from breeding to Lance and his sons, but pretty soon there was nowhere else to go, and she got so backmassed on the dogs of her choice that I understand she's got some serious temperament problems. She also had to start bringing in dogs from lines other than American (German working lines) to keep her dogs from becoming too inbred.

When the lines you want to breed to no longer exist, where do you go? If you get REALLY lucky, you might find a 'backyard breeder' somewhere who doesn't care about what's going on in the show ring, and is breeding for performance only. I know of numerous ASL breeders who just chucked in the towel, and went to another breed.


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## Thecowboysgirl

So am I understanding correctly that the working lines are the only ones with sufficient genetic diversity?

And the show lines trying so hard for cookie cutter dogs that would win are hopelessly inbred?


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## Sunsilver

Cowboysgirl, even the German working dogs are starting to get pockets of inbreeding/backmassing that are creating problems. They are mostly related to Troll and Timmy von der Bosen Nachbarschaft, and also Fero, the sire of these two dogs. Another dog that is over-represented in the working line pedigrees is Yoschy von der Döllenwiese. 

Czech pedigrees sometimes have too much linebreeding on some of the z Pohranicni straze dogs, which is probably one of the reasons breeders are outcrossing Czech dogs to West German working lines.


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## Sunsilver

As for the show line German dogs, let's take the renown Ursus von Batu as an example.
As show line dogs go, he was one that could actually work, and produced progeny with a good work ethic. But take a look at all the backmassing in his pedigree (click on the #7 to see the 7 generation view, which is even worse.) Also, the show line dogs completely eliminated several of the foundation lines on which the GSD breed was built, which meant the genetic diversity was severely limited from the get-go. 

Ursus von Batu

Here's a thread that talks about the foundation lines of the GSD: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...91777-foundation-lines-what-they-bring-4.html


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## Sunsilver

Another thread about the show lines: 

The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 1

I think if you dig around enough, you can actually find an English translation for the paper.

A very good quote from Cliff in that thread, that explains the problem in a nutshell:



> There is a "big difference" between linebreeding on two dogs in the 3,4,5, generations of two dogs that are from different lineage(as workinglines do), and the linebreeding of two dogs in which "both of the dogs are already linebred on the same dogs maybe 4 or 5 times. In the latter example you have a cuminative effect that creates the type of bottleneck that the post is speaking about. 95% of all 16 lines in a showline pedigree will go back to the L litter Winereau(sp). This is the problem with showlines...the "cuminative effect" of all this canvassing on Quanto/Canto has put the breed in a situation that you will "NEVER" improve these dogs healthwise(that is physical and Mental), unto you introduce new blood for many generations. You must sacrificr type and color to do this and the people won't do it,sooooo time moves on, the excuses abound for performance and health issues, and these dogs become less and less capable of doing what they were created to do. I have preached this for years because I saw the Marko/Bodo/Bernd/Mutz's of the world who were show dogs that were top working dogs......we lost our way in the show ring for money and looks and I am glad somebody has detailed it factually so some of the stubbon diehards can at least "grasp it".


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## Nigel

Question - Bodo/Bernd had a brother named Bandit in Denmark. Bandit was said to have thickened in the forequarters as he aged, what does this mean? Sounds like the Vello/Betty breeding was repeated a few times, any of these offspring go anywhere?


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## Sunsilver

Nigel, Vello was a good producer all on his own, and you'll find him in the pedigrees of many current working line dogs that are very good dogs.

As for direct progeny, it looks like the Vello and Betty combination was repeated at least 4 times. One son, Dolf v. Lierberg, became the Belgian sieger. 

Progeny list for V Vello zu den Sieben-Faulen SCHH3, FH


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## Nigel

Sunsilver said:


> Nigel, Vello was a good producer all on his own, and you'll find him in the pedigrees of many current working line dogs that are very good dogs.
> 
> As for direct progeny, it looks like the Vello and Betty combination was repeated at least 4 times. One son, Dolf v. Lierberg, became the Belgian sieger.
> 
> Progeny list for V Vello zu den Sieben-Faulen SCHH3, FH


Thanks, I need to learn to navigate PBD better.


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## Sunsilver

Just to give an example: Afra v. Stoppenberger Land is a female that pops up in many West German pedigrees, as she was the mother of both an WUSV sieger and a BSP sieger (Fado and Xando von Karthago respectively.)

She is a great-grandaughter of Bernd v. Lierberg, but is she line bred on him?

Nope. Linebred on Vello 6-4,5: Afra vom Stoppenberger Land (You've got to click on '7' to get him to show.)

And Vello was a dog who was never even koerd, because he was over sized!


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## Nigel

Sunsilver said:


> Just to give an example: Afra v. Stoppenberger Land is a female that pops up in many West German pedigrees, as she was the mother of both an WUSV sieger and a BSP sieger (Fado and Xando von Karthago respectively.)
> 
> She is a great-grandaughter of Bernd v. Lierberg, but is she line bred on him?
> 
> Nope. Linebred on Vello 6-4,5: Afra vom Stoppenberger Land (You've got to click on '7' to get him to show.)
> 
> And Vello was a dog who was never even koerd, because he was over sized!


Part of my issue is my old iPad cannot handle any pages with lots of ads. It reloads the page constantly. Well past time to replace it.


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## Sunsilver

Nigel, the PDB is HORRIBLE for trying to load ads! I had such a terrible time with the site freezing on me that I switched to Google Chrome as a browser, so I could install AdBlock!

Haven't had any issues since... and I can still see the dog ads, which are about the only ads on the site I want to see, anyway!

So, believe me, it's NOT just your computer!


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## wolfstraum

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So am I understanding correctly that the working lines are the only ones with sufficient genetic diversity?
> 
> And the show lines trying so hard for cookie cutter dogs that would win are hopelessly inbred?




the show lines are sooo sooo backmassed it is hard to imagine they can be opened up at all....

working lines a bit better - because the different geographical subtypes still have some dogs who are not the "same old same old" so prevalent in the German high sport breedings....the Czech lines are still fairly open - but more and more Fero showing up ....I personally have a male who could and should be viewed as a dog to loosen up the bottleneck in working lines....I can't see using show lines with the working dogs when there are still alternatives within working lines...they certainly won't help the working ability or trainability of the litter..... and structure?? well form follows function to quote a famous architect! what exactly IS the function of the showline? The common "faults" cited for WL dogs do NOT affect function! A dog with a straighter shoulder can still trot and herd sheep, and has the character needed to do so...

It seems that problem is that few look at the big picture - it is more about selling puppies and marketing than what they are actually producing. Too many look at BSP/WUSV dogs, at the breeders who can push themselves as the most high profile citing winnings and placings as if the dogs did it alone on genetics rather than training.....but not enough people think to examine the details, look at the whole picture....the numbers of litter and pups produced and the sucess rate...where do all the others go?? And at the pedigrees which are so so similar over and over.....the czech and DDR lines can dilute the backmassing of the WGWL and while they may temper extreme high drive, they have much more to offer in other characteristics and aspects

Lee


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## cliffson1

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So am I understanding correctly that the working lines are the only ones with sufficient genetic diversity?
> 
> And the show lines trying so hard for cookie cutter dogs that would win are hopelessly inbred?


Omit the word hopelessly and I think you about got it.&#55357;&#56842;. Though the WL are drifting in the same direction, but the end goal is not ribbons but points.


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## cliffson1

wolfstraum said:


> the show lines are sooo sooo backmassed it is hard to imagine they can be opened up at all....
> 
> working lines a bit better - because the different geographical subtypes still have some dogs who are not the "same old same old" so prevalent in the German high sport breedings....the Czech lines are still fairly open - but more and more Fero showing up ....I personally have a male who could and should be viewed as a dog to loosen up the bottleneck in working lines....I can't see using show lines with the working dogs when there are still alternatives within working lines...they certainly won't help the working ability or trainability of the litter..... and structure?? well form follows function to quote a famous architect! what exactly IS the function of the showline? The common "faults" cited for WL dogs do NOT affect function! A dog with a straighter shoulder can still trot and herd sheep, and has the character needed to do so...
> 
> It seems that problem is that few look at the big picture - it is more about selling puppies and marketing than what they are actually producing. Too many look at BSP/WUSV dogs, at the breeders who can push themselves as the most high profile citing winnings and placings as if the dogs did it alone on genetics rather than training.....but not enough people think to examine the details, look at the whole picture....the numbers of litter and pups produced and the sucess rate...where do all the others go?? And at the pedigrees which are so so similar over and over.....the czech and DDR lines can dilute the backmassing of the WGWL and while they may temper extreme high drive, they have much more to offer in other characteristics and aspects
> 
> Lee


I remember saying this 15 years ago and was pilloried by some breeders that I highly respect....most have come around in last 5-10 years, some are still holding on...lol.


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> I remember saying this 15 years ago and was pilloried by some breeders that I highly respect....most have come around in last 5-10 years, some are still holding on...lol.



LOL LOL I have been saying it since Kougar (Fero grandson)showed certain "Fero traits" and health issues common to his mother lines, and my Lord granddaughter was as healthy as a horse and made me look like I trained her to track! (not that all horses are healthy - but you know what I mean!  ) 

I am still pilloried by many who are still handing out kool-aid


Lee


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## Thecowboysgirl

wolfstraum said:


> the show lines are sooo sooo backmassed it is hard to imagine they can be opened up at all....
> 
> working lines a bit better - because the different geographical subtypes still have some dogs who are not the "same old same old" so prevalent in the German high sport breedings....the Czech lines are still fairly open - but more and more Fero showing up ....I personally have a male who could and should be viewed as a dog to loosen up the bottleneck in working lines....I can't see using show lines with the working dogs when there are still alternatives within working lines...they certainly won't help the working ability or trainability of the litter..... and structure?? well form follows function to quote a famous architect! what exactly IS the function of the showline? The common "faults" cited for WL dogs do NOT affect function! A dog with a straighter shoulder can still trot and herd sheep, and has the character needed to do so...
> 
> It seems that problem is that few look at the big picture - it is more about selling puppies and marketing than what they are actually producing. Too many look at BSP/WUSV dogs, at the breeders who can push themselves as the most high profile citing winnings and placings as if the dogs did it alone on genetics rather than training.....but not enough people think to examine the details, look at the whole picture....the numbers of litter and pups produced and the sucess rate...where do all the others go?? And at the pedigrees which are so so similar over and over.....the czech and DDR lines can dilute the backmassing of the WGWL and while they may temper extreme high drive, they have much more to offer in other characteristics and aspects
> 
> Lee


Well this is just so stupid. What is the matter with people? I guess I know the answer to that.

But it seems like the vast majority are not working in the best interest of the breed and that makes me crazy!!


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## cliffson1

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well this is just so stupid. What is the matter with people? I guess I know the answer to that.
> 
> But it seems like the vast majority are not working in the best interest of the breed and that makes me crazy!!


Breeders have to check their personal likes at the door, and must not allow what they like or want to have more importance than what should be.....very few breeders can do this. Also, if a breeder is not knowledgeable about the breed, how do they know they are omitting traits or exaggerating other traits???


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## lhczth

We can get what we like while also adding in some diversity. I have never thought that breeding for diversity for diversity's sake to be a good reason to breed (and have seen the terrible results).


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## carmspack

Fero remains an interesting dog .
After some conversations with a knowledgeable well connected breed fanatic there seems to 
be a reasonable doubt that "FERO" breeding after a pin point in time was not the same Fero that
we expected on the pedigree . 
Substitution .
That is why you have two different types - after a time .

If I go into my file cabinet , I have scribbled notes -- and yes Cliff I even have your letters and pedigrees
way back when -- the Baron of Buchonia -- !!! 

Cliff and Lisa and Lee this bit of information was alluded to on the old "genetics" (Bruce) forum.


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## lhczth

Fero was made famous by the T litter bösen Nachbarschaft and especially Troll. His two best sons were probably Troll and Gotthilf v.d. Kine (actually his sister, Gina, and brother Grief also produced well). Look at the pedigrees, though, of Troll's dam and Gotthilf's dam. Heavy Lierberg influence. I always looked at Fero in much the same ways I looked at Grief Lahntal (though I actually like Grief more). Drive dogs that needed balance (the Lierbergs brought that balance to Grief and also to Fero as did Mink in many ways for Fero).


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## Nigel

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> Yup, noticed Marko as well as Bernd, Mutz, and a few others in Omen's, as well as Jasmine's pedigrees.
> 
> It still surprises me that an American working line was never established around Bodo's line and progeny. It's a shame that American lines seem to have gone completely away from that stock and to what we have today in the ASL dogs. Nothing against ASL or even German Show Lines, they just aren't my cup of tea, or what I consider to be the original intention for the breed.


If what I'm reading is correct Bodo/Bernd produced cryptorchids. This may have steered some folks away, but who knows what all went on back then.


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## Sunsilver

Nigel, what people need to realize is EVERY dog has SOME faults. You do the best you can when breeding to balance out the faults by breeding to another dog that will compensate for that weakness. Sure, you have a dog that may produce cryptorchids: that means you DON'T linebreed heavily on it! But that's what everyone is doing. Try to find a modern working line pedigree that doesn't have Troll, Timmy or Fero MULTIPLE times in it! Like Cliff says above, he warned people about this awhile back, and was ignored.

But everyone wants to breed to the 'flavour of the month' and to heck with the consequences. If a little is good more must be better... 

When trying to select a stud to breed to my female, I've rejected some perfectly nice dogs because they had the above dogs 4 or 5 times in a 5 generation pedigree. Eska only has Troll and Fero once, but do I REALLY want to produce pups that have these dogs six times? Nope, don't think so...

Same thing happened with Lance of Fran-Jo and his sons. Lance was a nice dog, but then everyone jumped on the bandwagon, and pretty soon he was being blamed for everything from weak ears to hip dysplasia, cryptorchids, epi, mega-e and weak temperaments!


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## Nigel

Sunsilver said:


> Nigel, what people need to realize is EVERY dog has SOME faults. You do the best you can when breeding to balance out the faults by breeding to another dog that will compensate for that weakness. Sure, you have a dog that may produce cryptorchids: that means you DON'T linebreed heavily on it! But that's what everyone is doing. Try to find a modern working line pedigree that doesn't have Troll, Timmy or Fero MULTIPLE times in it! Like Cliff says above, he warned people about this awhile back, and was ignored.
> 
> But everyone wants to breed to the 'flavour of the month' and to heck with the consequences. If a little is good more must be better...
> 
> When trying to select a stud to breed to my female, I've rejected some perfectly nice dogs because they had the above dogs 4 or 5 times in a 5 generation pedigree. Eska only has Troll and Fero once, but do I REALLY want to produce pups that have these dogs six times? Nope, don't think so...
> 
> Same thing happened with Lance of Fran-Jo and his sons. Lance was a nice dog, but then everyone jumped on the bandwagon, and pretty soon he was being blamed for everything from weak ears to hip dysplasia, cryptorchids, epi, mega-e and weak temperaments!


I want sure if potential cryptorchids would be a no-go for breeding or could be compensated for.

With Lance, were the conditions you mention actually brought by him or the dogs he was paired with?

Eta, how far back would you generally need to look to find troll? I'm looking at my dogs PD and curious if he's in there.


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## Sunsilver

Nigel it is hard to say for sure, but it's likely a number of these problems were hidden in the genome as recessives, and only came to the surface due to all the linebreeding on Lance and his sons.

The same thing likely goes for cryptorchids: the cryptorchid dogs were not the ones being bred, but the gene was carried by the ones that were bred, and came to the surface as a result of multiple lines in the pedigree going to these dogs.

Troll, Timmy and Fero are not that far back in most pedigrees. In Eska's pedigree, Fero is 6 generations back.


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## Nigel

Sunsilver said:


> Nigel it is hard to say for sure, but it's likely a number of these problems were hidden in the genome as recessives, and only came to the surface due to all the linebreeding on Lance and his sons.
> 
> The same thing likely goes for cryptorchids: the cryptorchid dogs were not the ones being bred, but the gene was carried by the ones that were bred, and came to the surface as a result of multiple lines in the pedigree going to these dogs.
> 
> Troll, Timmy and Fero are not that far back in most pedigrees. In Eska's pedigree, Fero is 6 generations back.


ok, so as far as breeding dogs which are otherwise close to perfect like Bodo, you'd want to use them regardless. This sounds similar to the DM and breeding threads a while back. 

I found troll Von der bösen Nachbarshaft?? and Yoschy a couple time as well. Not sure about Timmy or Ferro. They might be in there hiding behind The Quaker oatmeal ad that floats around the page, lol.


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## Nigel

cliffson1 said:


> I think I said show and police/ performance dogs from same litters....would surprise you huh? Look up Bernd/Bodo v Lierberg, or Marko vom Cellerland or Mutz v d Peltzerferm or Frei v d Gugge ......these were all VA in show and directly produced Multiple dogs that were Bundesseigerprufund in IPO and VA in show and police dogs. As a matter of fact Bodo was German Seiger in show, his brother was VA3 and for twenty year period *Bernd had produced the most participants in the Bundesseigerprufund ( National Sch championships in Germany) ....dogs at highest level in show and performance from same stock*.
> I know that is not the case today, but not because it’s not possible.





Sunsilver said:


> Nigel it is hard to say for sure, but it's likely a number of these problems were hidden in the genome as recessives, and only came to the surface due to all the linebreeding on Lance and his sons.
> 
> The same thing likely goes for cryptorchids: the cryptorchid dogs were not the ones being bred, but the gene was carried by the ones that were bred, and came to the surface as a result of multiple lines in the pedigree going to these dogs.
> 
> Troll, Timmy and Fero are not that far back in most pedigrees. In Eska's pedigree, Fero is 6 generations back.


crypt or not bernd was being bred, missed this earlier. So not sure why Bodo would not be used in NA.


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## Nigel

cliffson1 said:


> Try Frei v d Gugge who was VA3 in show!!! He produced Enno v Aftreftal(sp), who won National Sch title with 299 I think. Enno produced Drigon and Falk, both National Sch champions with 298 scores out of 300.
> Today do you think a VA dog could produce a Regional champion, much less a National champion in work???
> Bodo was an American champion as Lisa said, the show people wouldn’t breed to him but he became a foundation dog for seeing-eye dogs back then. Do you know the nerves it takes to consistently produce good guide dog stock??? No bitework needed but rock solid nerves, yet I don’t see dogs out of show lines from America or Germany being used as guide dogs anymore....what happened?


I'm not finding much on some these dogs googling, any good sources out there?


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## wolfstraum

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well this is just so stupid. What is the matter with people? I guess I know the answer to that.
> 
> But it seems like the vast majority are not working in the best interest of the breed and that makes me crazy!!


IPO has - for the most part - lost it's way....no longer a breed test but a sport. Points and trophies are the goal and while nice to get of course, training to hide flaws, training to condition past nerve issues, training to get a title just so a dog can be bred. I think there are 2 types of people in IPO - those who have dogs so they can compete and who want that trophy and those who really love their dogs and train to know their dogs. The first will wash many dogs to get that podium potential, the latter will train and understand what they have and take pride in the teamwork that culminates in a title....no matter the score.

Training should and can demonstrate the dog's strengths and flaws....and if flaws are serious, the ethical and knowledgeable trainer will not breed the dog, regardless of the completion of a title when they know the conditioning and work to get the title. 

Unfortunately - that title, no matter how deserved or undeserved is a license to breed 
and too many breeders do not care how many pups they produce who are problematic or unworthy as long as they get that one they think will be a superstar.

Lee


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## cliffson1

lhczth said:


> We can get what we like while also adding in some diversity. I have never thought that breeding for diversity for diversity's sake to be a good reason to breed (and have seen the terrible results).


Breeding diversity for diversities sake I’m not familiar with, but breeding diversity to maintain standard traits seems right to me. (Caveat: I could have this diversity thing all wrong, and issues of nerve and color patterns and even extreme structure are not the result of lack of diversity, but moreso me just wanting things to be like they were old in days!


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## cliffson1

carmspack said:


> Fero remains an interesting dog .
> After some conversations with a knowledgeable well connected breed fanatic there seems to
> be a reasonable doubt that "FERO" breeding after a pin point in time was not the same Fero that
> we expected on the pedigree .
> Substitution .
> That is why you have two different types - after a time .
> 
> If I go into my file cabinet , I have scribbled notes -- and yes Cliff I even have your letters and pedigrees
> way back when -- the Baron of Buchonia -- !!!
> 
> Cliff and Lisa and Lee this bit of information was alluded to on the old "genetics" (Bruce) forum.


Gosh, Carmen, you are dating both of us. ? haha
I think Fero has many branches, the Troll/ Timmy branch which are different within themselves, the Mink/Fero combinations, the use of Koos from Tiekerhook kennels to go in another direction, and then Fero used as incidental in breedings. Lately, the use of Fero derivatives to bring more prey drive to Czech and DDR lines...hey but I’m just rambling.


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## cliffson1

Nigel said:


> I'm not finding much on some these dogs googling, any good sources out there?


It takes research, diligence and word of mouth along with some books. Like the SV magazine from Germany, studying the VA winners and the BSP winners AND their dams and sire’s. Breed books over the years, Strickland, Malcolm Willis, the Captain,etc. Dialogue with folks with first hand knowledge or experiences with these dogs. I have been to many many seminars and trials over the years and usually there is a dinner for the Judges on one or two nights. I always make sure I can elicit as much info as possible about dogs old and new from these Judges from Belgium, Germany, Holland, and now Czech/Slovakian ....about key dogs and their progeny and work habits. Plus there are folks here in country in dog world who have relocated to America that have wealth of info on these dogs from first hand knowledge....but again, I’m rambling...I’m sorry!


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## Chip Blasiole

Nigel said:


> If what I'm reading is correct Bodo/Bernd produced cryptorchids. This may have steered some folks away, but who knows what all went on back then.


Bernd also produced blacks and lacked a black muzzle himself, which, IMO, are not reasons to not use a dog for producing working stock, but were factors in him being used so little in breeding. Bernd was probably a better sire than Bodo, but did not produce many VA/champion dogs, so again, you see the negative influence of breeding for conformation over working ability resulting in a loss of valuable working genetics. Bodo was also faulted for producing blacks as well as crytochordism, along with Bernd, as you mentioned. Bodo only had one VA progeny, so his genetics were neglected, even though he and Bernd were "sources of excellent character and trainability." This, is a major reason, IMO, why the breed has declined in working ability in terms of consistency. Also, as someone else mentioned, IPO has negatively impacted selection. Even if you go back to the founding sire, Horand, he arguably was not from true working stock, as he had no working titles. This over focus on conformation, movement, pigment, etc. is why the breed has taken a back seat to Malinois and DS's, as the good breeders of those working lines are not concerned with physical appearance. The downside of that approach is that there is a lot of variability in type and Mals/DS's lack the noble appearance of a correct GSD.


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## lhczth

The Lierbergs also produced dogs that could be higher threshold and took longer to "wake up" than the dogs we see now. They brought great nerves and that is why they were so good about bringing balance to some of the lower threshold easily activated lines. 

Cliff, I have seen breedings and dogs used in breeding that were done/used just to promote "diversity". That is what I mean by breeding diversity for diversity's sake.  I happen to like bringing in some old DDR to my WGWL and will bring in some Czech when I find the right dog to use with my female. I do this, though, as part of a plan and pay a ton of attention to the dogs being used and the genetics they are bringing to the next generation. I won't keep or breed a dog I can't work (no matter the lines).


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## lhczth

Lance, like Canto Wienerau, brought flash to the show ring. That is why he was used so much.


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## Nigel

cliffson1 said:


> It takes research, diligence and word of mouth along with some books. Like the SV magazine from Germany, studying the VA winners and the BSP winners AND their dams and sire’s. Breed books over the years, Strickland, Malcolm Willis, the Captain,etc. Dialogue with folks with first hand knowledge or experiences with these dogs. I have been to many many seminars and trials over the years and usually there is a dinner for the Judges on one or two nights. I always make sure I can elicit as much info as possible about dogs old and new from these Judges from Belgium, Germany, Holland, and now Czech/Slovakian ....about key dogs and their progeny and work habits. Plus there are folks here in country in dog world who have relocated to America that have wealth of info on these dogs from first hand knowledge....but again, I’m rambling...I’m sorry!


Keep on rambling please! I found another forum with some familiar names discussing selection of dogs for breeding in Eastern EU countries, interesting reading.


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## Sunsilver

Because Americans preferred this to this:

Lance of Fran-Jo

Search - bodo von Lierberg

BTW, that's a VERY young Jimmy Moses holding Lance. Lance's pigment was actually darker than it appears in the photo, which has faded with age. Scroll to the bottom for a better photo.

The real death knell to American dogs as far as working ability went happened in 1990, when the AKC banned schutzhund. 






> Now you have repudiated this heritage, declared the very foundation of our breeds - the working test - to be unacceptable in the eyes of the AKC. Schutzhund is much more than a sport, is in fact the gauge by which a German Shepherd or Doberman Pincher is properly measured to determine breeding eligibility. It is, quite simply, the instrument that defines the breed. In Belgium, France and the Netherlands the Ring Sport and Police trials, also banned, serve similar purposes. The primary consequence of your directive is that the preservation and evolution of these breeds as functional working dogs will now certainly take place under the auspices of other organizations.
> 
> Since your directive - and the attitude it represents - is so fundamentally hostile to the heritage of our breeds, it seems necessary to put forth our point of view for your response. This is thus an open communication, intended to provoke dialogue in the hope of slowing the rapidly developing separation of our "working" breeds into "AKC show dogs" - devoid of their original working character - and seriously bred dogs intended to have both correct type and working aptitude. This is thus submitted for your comment and explanation prior to publication.


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunsilver said:


> The real death knell to American dogs as far as working ability went happened in 1990, when the AKC banned schutzhund.


Why did this have such a big impact? If I understand it correctly Sch trails were held in conjunction with AKC events but were never actual AKC sanctioned events.....is that right? People doing Sch were still able to take part in training and trials after the ban. Did it have an impact because prior to the ban dogs entering AKC conformation shows were also taking part in the Sch trials held the same day?


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## WIBackpacker

Sunsilver said:


> The real death knell to American dogs as far as working ability went happened in 1990, when the AKC banned schutzhund.





Whiteshepherds said:


> *Why did this have such a big impact?* If I understand it correctly Sch trails were held in conjunction with AKC events but were never actual AKC sanctioned events.....is that right? People doing Sch were still able to take part in training and trials after the ban. Did it have an impact because prior to the ban dogs entering AKC conformation shows were also taking part in the Sch trials held the same day?


I do not envy people who are just starting out in this breed, stone-cold without a mentor or ten.

As if it isn't confusing enough trying to sort out honest people from others who are less than honest, and getting a grasp on the vast discrepancies in terminology ("drive", "social", etc), the AKC's position on IPO and other working titles removes even more transparency.

I had one of my dog's paperwork pile out, last month. If you look at her pedigree, sire has a CGC and dam has a CD. Whoop--de-doo, right? Well..... sire and dam are both IPO3 FH, and more. But the _official pedigree_ doesn't reflect any of that. 

Yes, you can send in a pile of documentation to the AKC to get certain parent-club titles to be acknowledged, but event secretaries and higher-ups can decide whether or not they want to print it on trial premiums or other documents. Maybe it'll show up, maybe it won't, their call.

Clear as mud, if you don't know where to dig for information and who to ask.


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## Sunsilver

Whiteshepherds, yes, that's true, they could. But what happened as a result of this ban was the American line dogs became show dogs only. Most of them no longer have the ability to work. And that is very, very sad.

Some people feel the differences between the German and American dogs are now so great that they should be separate breeds.


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## Sunsilver

Okay, I know my post above has probably ruffled a few feathers. But I have been to CKC shows (which are pretty much the same as AKC) and the GSDs you see in the show ring are almost never the same ones competing in the working events. It's very rare to find a GSD champion that has even a CD after their name.

Those who are making an effort to title their American line dogs in performance events have my utmost respect. Here are a few of them...

Jimmy Moses (Kaleef) is making an effort to get some of the Kaleef dogs titled: Our Girls

Xeph (Marcato Shepherds) who posts on this board now and then, works her dogs in several different venues. However, she's been stricken by ill health lately, and I don't know if she'll be able to continue with this.

American line dogs that have both conformation titles and schutzhund titles are a rare breed. Here's one of them. I had the pleasure of meeting him at the Canadian Specialty a short time before he died. He was a very handsome boy!

Jim vom Fiemereck


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunsilver said:


> Whiteshepherds, yes, that's true, they could. But what happened as a result of this ban was the American line dogs became show dogs only. Most of them no longer have the ability to work. And that is very, very sad.


So there were more GSD’s doing Sch before the ban at AKC events and then they stopped? I’m confused as to why people would stop trialing their dogs simply because the AKC wouldn’t let them do it during AKC events. It seems like there had to be other reasons….maybe something as simple as conformation was always more popular and the AKC ban helped bolster the opinion that Sch wasn’t needed to determine whether or not a dog was breed worthy? Conformation is certainly easier and takes less time than becoming involved in Sch and other sporting events. 


WIBackpacker said:


> I do not envy people who are just starting out in this breed, stone-cold without a mentor or ten. As if it isn't confusing enough trying to sort out honest people from others who are less than honest, and getting a grasp on the vast discrepancies in terminology ("drive", "social", etc), the AKC's position on IPO and other working titles removes even more transparency.


The AKC now allows SCH titles on the pedigrees…assuming it wasn’t retroactive? 

Mentors- We’ve all been given information about the breed that turned out to be wrong, ridiculous, biased, etc. etc. etc. I think it’s human nature to latch on to opinions that closely reflect our own and one of the first hurdles people need to overcome before they consider breeding dogs.


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## Chip Blasiole

Chip Blasiole said:


> Bernd also produced blacks and lacked a black muzzle himself, which, IMO, are not reasons to not use a dog for producing working stock, but were factors in him being used so little in breeding. Bernd was probably a better sire than Bodo, but did not produce many VA/champion dogs, so again, you see the negative influence of breeding for conformation over working ability resulting in a loss of valuable working genetics. Bodo was also faulted for producing blacks as well as crytochordism, along with Bernd, as you mentioned.


 I am making inferences about the undesirability of solid blacks by the SV based on comments in Willis'es book on the genetic history of the breed. My understanding is that in the GSD, genes for black coat color can be recessive or dominant. I have read that the SV tried to end all solid black breeding stock where a dominant black coat gene was suspected so that the SV's preferred coat color of black and tan would prevail. You can see this shift in the late 1960's and 1970's under the Martin brothers, and I believe it had to do with money, at the expense of the breed. The SV shifted to encouraging the production of these cookie cutter black and red dogs, that they could sell to countries like Japan for huge sums of money, whose economy was starting to boom. This led to a more prominent split between the high lines and the working lines, and the result was a loss of working genetics. SchH/IPO has been watered down rather than made more of a breed worthiness test because the vast majority of GSDs are show line dogs and they need a working title to be bred in Germany and other countries. If the SV made IPO more of a breed worthiness test, many of the high line dogs would not be able to get their titles. There are still some decent high line dogs that can work, but they are like finding hen's teeth. It is largely about the money.


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## WIBackpacker

Whiteshepherds said:


> The AKC now allows SCH titles on the pedigrees…assuming it wasn’t retroactive?


Yes, they're "allowed" on pedigrees, per se - but like I mentioned above, the onus lies with the owner to submit the additional documentation, and it seems that very few people actually do. And trial secretaries/etc reserve the right to choose to put those submitted & approved SCH titles on trial premiums and similar paperwork, or omit them on the same. It doesn't happen automatically, and there is no guarantee it will be included, as with AKC titles.

It can be confusing, if you don't know where else to keep looking. And it isn't just IPO titles, it's other working venues as well.


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## Sunsilver

Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook Kennels complained about the lack of sable V and VA dog in the annual sieger show in Germany. I forget who the SV president was at the time, but the reply he got back was essentially "You won't see a sable VA dog as long as I am president."

Evidently no black dogs, either...

This was awhile ago, and the situation hasn't changed.

Whiteshepherds, so much I could say about the ASL dogs, but it would take more time to explain than I have right now. The dogs that have the prestige are the ones that are winning in the show ring. The showing these days is all done by professional handlers. Yes, there are some 'bred by' handlers, but very few. I really don't understand why the big name ASL breeders don't take part in performance events. Lack of time? Or is it because an excellent select title is seen as a better way of selling your puppies than a UDX obedience title? You will see some of them with dogs competing in the agility and obedience rings, but these seem to be mostly the ones that don't have the conformation to earn titles in the show ring.

Politics play a big role in this, too. You really don't stand much of a chance of winning unless you have a handler, and the money needed to hire a pro handler often prevents your average owner from showing. I've heard it said (jokingly) that the big name handlers could bring a goat into the ring, and still win a red ribbon!


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## Chip Blasiole

Sunsilver said:


> ... I really don't understand why the big name ASL breeders don't take part in performance events. Lack of time? Or is it because an excellent select title is seen as a better way of selling your puppies than a UDX obedience title? You will see some of them with dogs competing in the agility and obedience rings, but these seem to be mostly the ones that don't have the conformation to earn titles in the show ring...


I am biased, but think the main reason is the dogs and the handlers don't have the aptitude for performance events/titles. And you are just taking about obedience titles, not bite work. It takes a lot more creative ability, effort, ability to read a dog, and knowledge/skill to train a dog to a performance title than it does to groom a dog and run him around a ring. Plus, it is harder to breed for mental traits than physical traits. Physical traits are more objective in nature. When it comes to assessing drives, nerves, etc., you have to be able to see past the training if a breeder is looking at breeding a dog that he/she got as an adult, accurately read a dog, know pedigrees to a greater degree, and put a lot more time in.


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## Fodder

Jim vom Fiemereck
“American line dog”
How so?


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## wolfstraum

Sunsilver said:


> Whiteshepherds, so much I could say about the ASL dogs, but it would take more time to explain than I have right now. The dogs that have the prestige are the ones that are winning in the show ring. The showing these days is all done by professional handlers. Yes, there are some 'bred by' handlers, but very few. I really don't understand why the big name ASL breeders don't take part in performance events. Lack of time? Or is it because an excellent select title is seen as a better way of selling your puppies than a UDX obedience title? You will see some of them with dogs competing in the agility and obedience rings, but these seem to be mostly the ones that don't have the conformation to earn titles in the show ring.


I have done some AKC, have friends who are judges, teachers - Rally and Ob.....I take my dogs to an AKC club for OB work, use agility classes to teach A frame and jumps....

I see ASL dogs there....

The difference in attitude and drive between them and my WL dogs is like between my WL dogs and Basset Hounds....

Last time I showed in an AKC show, my multi Sch3/IPO3 dog was heeling gorgeous, prancy, tight, quick sits....but close to me, some very very very minor bumping.....I watched dogs stop and survey the crowd on an about turn and catch up to the handler when they stopped, never sit at a stop, lag 3-5 steps behind the handler on ever exercise...I was very happy wiht my girl that day for doing such a super nice job.....we qualified with a high 170 score.....and the dogs who did the above got ribbons....they got a -1 for lagging, or a -.5 for slow sit.....I lost 22 points for bumping......the judge told me what a beautiful job she did - but he took a point EVERY.SINGLE.TIME she touched me.....

I have never gone back into an AKC ring.


Lee


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## wolfstraum

Fodder said:


> Jim vom Fiemereck
> “American line dog”
> How so?


No no no.....WGSL - was imported, got a Championship, used by American breeders - but WGSL all the way....but look at the kennels using him....some WGSL females and many ASLs.....I see Alkarah, Darby Dan and Drache Feld...

Darby Dan did a lot of WGSL crosses and mixes....he once wanted to buy a puppy from a litter I had advertised from a female I was importing and I spent quite a bit of time talkng to the owner....he had had his kennel in PA on property and a schutzhund club trained there....well he wanted a black female for breeding from the cross.....I won't sell an 8 week old puppy to anyone knowing it will go right into a kennel for it's whole life and be a puppy factory....and as it ended up, the female came over empty....


----------



## Fodder

^ Nods :thumbup:
I should have quoted or tagged @Sunsilver, who my question was loosely directed.


----------



## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> Bernd also produced blacks and lacked a black muzzle himself, which, IMO, are not reasons to not use a dog for producing working stock, but were factors in him being used so little in breeding. Bernd was probably a better sire than Bodo, but did not produce many VA/champion dogs, so again, you see the negative influence of breeding for conformation over working ability resulting in a loss of valuable working genetics. Bodo was also faulted for producing blacks as well as crytochordism, along with Bernd, as you mentioned. Bodo only had one VA progeny, so his genetics were neglected, even though he and Bernd were "sources of excellent character and trainability." This, is a major reason, IMO, why the breed has declined in working ability in terms of consistency. Also, as someone else mentioned, IPO has negatively impacted selection. Even if you go back to the founding sire, Horand, he arguably was not from true working stock, as he had no working titles. This over focus on conformation, movement, pigment, etc. is why the breed has taken a back seat to Malinois and DS's, as the good breeders of those working lines are not concerned with physical appearance. The downside of that approach is that there is a lot of variability in type and Mals/DS's lack the noble appearance of a correct GSD.


Chip, I understand things differently in that Bernd was bred to a lot, just not by SL people. As I said, for a twenty year period, Bernd had the most BSP participants in Germany....he was even in a few DDR pedigrees before the curtain came down. Bodo was not used as much because he was sold to America. As Lisa said earlier, the breed has long been divided, the difference being that it was not by color and gait. So Bernd not being used by show breeders or producing show progeny as the Winereau influence starting taking effect is quite understandable, but Bernd was used pretty extensively for that period. So since there were always High lines in Germany and working/herding stock....the segregation was not based on color and extreme gait, so there were VA dogs that could work and produce good workers.
Marko vom Cellerland, who was German Seiger, ( and also considered World Seiger as he won one of biggest all breed shows in Europe) had one parent out of Herding stock. He was not an extreme dog, but very balanced dog, with shorter upper arm but perfect angulation for his front that gave him an effortless gait. But he was very dark dog, who produced blacks and bicolor when bred to certain females. He also didn’t produce extreme gait and was not a dog to strengthen the black and red saddleback like Quanto....so showline breeders moved away from him as popular as he was, because of color and gait was not in the direction the Winereau dogs were taking the show ring. But the workinglines people like Maineche kennels used him because he was strong in work and structure as breed should be. 
My point is that I agree with you that Bernd and Marko were not viewed from a total dog perspective as the German high lines not longer put equal value on total dog.


----------



## cliffson1

lhczth said:


> The Lierbergs also produced dogs that could be higher threshold and took longer to "wake up" than the dogs we see now. They brought great nerves and that is why they were so good about bringing balance to some of the lower threshold easily activated lines.
> 
> Cliff, I have seen breedings and dogs used in breeding that were done/used just to promote "diversity". That is what I mean by breeding diversity for diversity's sake.  I happen to like bringing in some old DDR to my WGWL and will bring in some Czech when I find the right dog to use with my female. I do this, though, as part of a plan and pay a ton of attention to the dogs being used and the genetics they are bringing to the next generation. I won't keep or breed a dog I can't work (no matter the lines).


I understand and agree with you about diversity for diversity sake, I just don’t see it done much anymore. When I see people that breed “ just to promote diversity” they usually are people who are entrenched in a line, will breed “ one” time to a dog out of line then go right back to the entrenched genetics that they started from and call that diversity. I don’t consider that breeding for genetic diversity. We’re saying the same thing I guess but maybe have different scope of genetic diversity....now I do see some nice Czech/West dogs or DDR/Czech dogs or West/DDR dogs or infusions of Scandinavian dogs( who generally have a more genetically diverse dog, especially in Sweden ) with West dogs that I consider good genetic diversity. I also sometimes see good genetic diversity in old German lines mixed with newer German lines. Plus KNPV GS lines can bring some genetic diversity as do some of the French Ring GS, in the way they have a different phenotype often from current sport lines.


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## Sunsilver

Fodder said:


> Jim vom Fiemereck
> “American line dog”
> How so?


Arggh. Sorry I wasn't more clear on this! My bad...Only because he showed successfully in both the AKC and CKC show rings. That was the point I was trying to make. He is one of the very few dogs to successfully get Schutzhund titles and AKC/CKC conformation titles. But, yes, German lines all the way.

If you look at his progeny on PDB, you will see he really didn't produce much of anything after that. He was bred to both German and American show line bitches, but the results were less than spectacular.

His owner, Dan Smith, is a AKC breeder of merit, and a well know AKC judge. That probably helped him to achieve what he did.


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## Chip Blasiole

cliffson1 said:


> Chip, I understand things differently in that Bernd was bred to a lot, just not by SL people. As I said, for a twenty year period, Bernd had the most BSP participants in Germany....he was even in a few DDR pedigrees before the curtain came down. Bodo was not used as much because he was sold to America. As Lisa said earlier, the breed has long been divided, the difference being that it was not by color and gait. So Bernd not being used by show breeders or producing show progeny as the Winereau influence starting taking effect is quite understandable, but Bernd was used pretty extensively for that period. So since there were always High lines in Germany and working/herding stock....the segregation was not based on color and extreme gait, so there were VA dogs that could work and produce good workers.
> Marko vom Cellerland, who was German Seiger, ( and also considered World Seiger as he won one of biggest all breed shows in Europe) had one parent out of Herding stock. He was not an extreme dog, but very balanced dog, with shorter upper arm but perfect angulation for his front that gave him an effortless gait. But he was very dark dog, who produced blacks and bicolor when bred to certain females. He also didn’t produce extreme gait and was not a dog to strengthen the black and red saddleback like Quanto....so showline breeders moved away from him as popular as he was, because of color and gait was not in the direction the Winereau dogs were taking the show ring. But the workinglines people like Maineche kennels used him because he was strong in work and structure as breed should be.
> My point is that I agree with you that Bernd and Marko were not viewed from a total dog perspective as the German high lines not longer put equal value on total dog.


Cliff,
I defer to your knowledge on this and what you say makes sense. Back in 1998, I corresponded with Malcolm Willis after reading his book, and he clearly had a bias (evident from the point of view in his book) for the high lines. I still have his letter and he said, "I do believe that show dogs represent the future of the breed because, rightly or wrongly, they represent the biggest slice of the breeding programme." He also talked about the Dangerous Dog Act in England and concerns he had at the time with the problems "skinhead thugs" in England had created with the misuse of pitbulls. He was clear that he believed the differences between the show and working lines was largely genetic with fear being a highly heritable trait and the concentration on Canto/Uran in the show lines contributing to a decline in working ability in the show lines. He also mentioned how the Martin brothers rejected the sable dogs as being a different type and called their decision "gross stupidity." He was aware of prejudice against the sable dogs as early as the 1950's. So when he wrote about Bernd in his book, "Little used, he lacked a black muzzle," he had to be referring to being little used by the show line breeders. Thanks for clarifying that point.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Chip Blasiole said:


> Cliff,
> I defer to your knowledge on this and what you say makes sense. Back in 1998, I corresponded with Malcolm Willis after reading his book, and he clearly had a bias (evident from the point of view in his book) for the high lines. I still have his letter and he said, "I do believe that show dogs represent the future of the breed because, rightly or wrongly, they represent the biggest slice of the breeding programme." He also talked about the Dangerous Dog Act in England and concerns he had at the time with the problems "skinhead thugs" in England had created with the misuse of pitbulls. He was clear that he believed the differences between the show and working lines was largely genetic with fear being a highly heritable trait and the concentration on Canto/Uran in the show lines contributing to a decline in working ability in the show lines. He also mentioned how the Martin brothers rejected the sable dogs as being a different type and called their decision "gross stupidity." He was aware of prejudice against the sable dogs as early as the 1950's. So when he wrote about Bernd in his book, "Little used, he lacked a black muzzle," he had to be referring to being little used by the show line breeders. Thanks for clarifying that point.


So, the SV, which is the biggest and most influential GSD org in the world? (is it? If not, feel free to tell me) is basically a color breeder? 

It actually makes me feel less bad about the whites being kicked out. Because the SV kicked out all the colors except for black and red even if not on paper. I mean I know the SV is not a "breeder" but maybe I should have said they have influenced all the breeders to be color breeders.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

The SV really has no interest in the working ability of the breed. The vast number of dogs in Germany are made up of the black and red high line dogs. It is about the money those dogs can fetch for breedings going to, IMO, uniformed people. If people want/like the show line dogs, that is fine, but they can't honestly say they are striving to keep the breed a working breed. I don't even think von Stephanitz was that successful or as sincere as he claimed to be about keeping the breed a purely working breed. Unless things have changed, at the annual Seiger Show in Germany, the judge who decides which dogs will receive high placings for conformation/movement, does not even see those dogs performing on the courage test or even get a report on how those dogs did. The German Police split off from the SV in 1999. IPO scores are not good predictors of desired genetics. It really comes down to those breeders who are knowledgeable about working lines, their own stock, pedigrees, training, etc.


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## Chip Blasiole

Here is a link related to some of the comments I made about the SV.

Stagnation


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## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> The SV really has no interest in the working ability of the breed. The vast number of dogs in Germany are made up of the black and red high line dogs. It is about the money those dogs can fetch for breedings going to, IMO, uniformed people. If people want/like the show line dogs, that is fine, but they can't honestly say they are striving to keep the breed a working breed. I don't even think von Stephanitz was that successful or as sincere as he claimed to be about keeping the breed a purely working breed. Unless things have changed, at the annual Seiger Show in Germany, the judge who decides which dogs will receive high placings for conformation/movement, does not even see those dogs performing on the courage test or even get a report on how those dogs did. The German Police split off from the SV in 1999. IPO scores are not good predictors of desired genetics. It really comes down to those breeders who are knowledgeable about working lines, their own stock, pedigrees, training, etc.


Exactly!


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## Jax08

Whiteshepherds said:


> The AKC now allows SCH titles on the pedigrees…assuming it wasn’t



Only if the dogs are trialed under the GSDCA or the official breed club. Any dogs trialed under USCA can not add the title.


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## cliffson1

Jax08 said:


> Only if the dogs are trialed under the GSDCA or the official breed club. Any dogs trialed under USCA can not add the title.


Which is crazy because the same SV Judges award the same titles under the same rules. Again personal issues getting in the way of facts.


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## mnm

And of course, with the required fee to record the title.... AKC has quite a few issues, but still the only FCI recognized registry in the US.


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## carmspack

omg --- I have a lot to catch up on !!!\

so from this page 8 and the discussion on ASL's -- tot me riled --

sunsilver -nothing personal - only the facts - you wondered " why the big name ASL breeders don't take part in performance events. Lack of time"

the answer is supremely simple . not a lack of time a LACK of DOG 

wolfstraum , you made me laugh with your assessment
"The difference in attitude and drive between them and my WL dogs is like between my WL dogs and Basset Hounds."

how very very true -- except all the Bassett Hounds I have met at the all-breed shows had good temperament --
no flighty or nervy dogs there .

Sunsilver - again , you said 

"Those who are making an effort to title their American line dogs in performance events have my utmost respect. Here are a few of them..."

and I agree - but 

sunsilver said ----
Jimmy Moses (Kaleef) is making an effort to get some of the Kaleef dogs titled: 

??????? here is the easy answer , the American mirrored experience equivalent to Canto and the influence of
SV's Martin brothers and Canto Wienerau 

even the timeline was similar -- and so was the effect - which is consoliated into these lines ASL and WGSL to this day

why? after nearly 50 years ? 

when a fearless friend asked specifically where do you train , who do you train with ??? 
there was all the silence of a black hole --- profound nothing 

do you have any idea of the time and energy and effort expended into just getting a Temperament Test at the Nationals?
Anyone for these and you feel the exclusion.

The issue brought out the worst in some people -- including from judges who were also breeder and handlers.


next time -- trying to find time --- the American alternative - that could have changed the direction --
A


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## carmspack

Chip Blasiole said:


> The SV really has no interest in the working ability of the breed. The vast number of dogs in Germany are made up of the black and red high line dogs. It is about the money those dogs can fetch for breedings going to, IMO, uniformed people. If people want/like the show line dogs, that is fine, but they can't honestly say they are striving to keep the breed a working breed.  I don't even think von Stephanitz was that successful or as sincere as he claimed to be about keeping the breed a purely working breed. Unless things have changed, at the annual Seiger Show in Germany, the judge who decides which dogs will receive high placings for conformation/movement, does not even see those dogs performing on the courage test or even get a report on how those dogs did. The German Police split off from the SV in 1999. IPO scores are not good predictors of desired genetics. It really comes down to those breeders who are knowledgeable about working lines, their own stock, pedigrees, training, etc.


This is exactly what has been going on.

I think the split in 1999 was a deliberate move to conceal working dogs and professional working dogs so that the changes that were happening in the preferrred , "lucrative" wouldn't be in the light for easy comparrison.
The mainevent BSP zucht and prufung and police trials were held on different days , and in different locations , with little to no attention or promotion from the SV .


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## Nigel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Cliff,
> I defer to your knowledge on this and what you say makes sense. Back in 1998, I corresponded with Malcolm Willis after reading his book, and he clearly had a bias (evident from the point of view in his book) for the high lines. I still have his letter and he said, "I do believe that show dogs represent the future of the breed because, rightly or wrongly, they represent the biggest slice of the breeding programme." He also talked about the Dangerous Dog Act in England and concerns he had at the time with the problems "skinhead thugs" in England had created with the misuse of pitbulls. He was clear that he believed the differences between the show and working lines was largely genetic with fear being a highly heritable trait and the concentration on Canto/Uran in the show lines contributing to a decline in working ability in the show lines. He also mentioned how the Martin brothers rejected the sable dogs as being a different type and called their decision "gross stupidity." He was aware of prejudice against the sable dogs as early as the 1950's. So when he wrote about Bernd in his book, "Little used, he lacked a black muzzle," he had to be referring to being little used by the show line breeders. Thanks for clarifying that point.


How does the dangerous dog law tie into all this? Are they intentionally watering down gsds to making them less appealing to thugs? 

After reading the "stagnation" link the GSD breed and organisations involved are in a bigger mess than I thought. The whole thing is one very long train wreck that has not come to a complete stop.


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## carmspack

Nigel said:


> How does the dangerous dog law tie into all this? Are they intentionally watering down gsds to making them less appealing to thugs?
> 
> After reading the "stagnation" link the GSD breed and organisations involved are in a bigger mess than I thought. The whole thing is one very long train wreck that has not come to a complete stop.



I was a member of the Alsation League of Great Britain for years .
Eventually they came around and officially accepted the correct name which
was German Shepherd Dog.
Every year they published a hard copy year book , which I have many years' worth
on my shelves.

You have to understand the nature of the British sentiments . Look at the breeds that they developed -- gun dogs, springers, pretty good "chaps" .
Look at the many breeds developed in Germany -- Rotts, GSD, Dobermann, -- polar opposite.

As an island , with restrictive quarantine regulations , there was a version of the GSD developed which suited their people and needs. Same phenomenon as DDR and iron curtain dogs developing as sub groups to meet the needs of the locals.

In every issue there were breeder interviews , igeneral information abut hot topics and issues.

A very big issue was dogs, meaning GSD , being bred and trained and promoted in any form of aggression . NO schutzhund . 

When the aggressive dog bans , which were deadly serious , we , in Ontario , at least were tackling our own breed specific bans --- Pit Bulls . 

In Britain dogs reported as "nasty" could be confiscated . 

In one issue of the Leagues annual reports there is an extensive article and it says that if so much as someone taking "a fright" could have a dog's future in jeopardy.

Everytime I read stories of frustration with dogs lunging and barking at passing people I think back to the consequences that could have been , had this been Britain in that time .

The people just did not have expsure to the continental dogs .


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## Chip Blasiole

Nigel said:


> How does the dangerous dog law tie into all this? Are they intentionally watering down gsds to making them less appealing to thugs?
> 
> After reading the "stagnation" link the GSD breed and organisations involved are in a bigger mess than I thought. The whole thing is one very long train wreck that has not come to a complete stop.


Regarding Willis'es comments on the Dangerous Dog Act in England, I believe his point was that he didn't see a need for most GSDs or their owners to be/have dogs that were serious working dogs because he believed, "most owners could not cope and that would be a disaster for the GSD." He felt strong dogs that lacked competent handlers would negatively impact public opinion and harm the breed. He thought if you wanted dogs for police work, the police should breed for that, but there are very few police agencies in N.A. or Europe who breed their own dogs. The RCMP and the Slovak police kennels come to mind. Compare this situation to KNPV in Holland, where the main focus is breeding for police dogs and show dogs are not part of the equation. They have a working dog culture, which is much easier to accomplish in a very small country. I understand his concerns, but have a different POV. You can find strong dogs, but it is not so easy. I think a major issue is that too often, people breeding working lines are not creating their own bloodlines and the result is a loss or genetic prepotency. Breeding two very nice dogs is different from breeding two very nice dogs where the breeder has good knowledge of what those dogs' ancestors have produced. I like to see a pedigree that has a fair number of producers of producers. There has to be some confidence that the dominant genetics are in a bloodline for desirable traits, and desirable means more than top sport performance. I don't think the breed should be diluted because there are not enough competent handlers to satisfy the demands of the market, but that horse has already left the barn.


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## mycobraracr

I don't have anything of value to add, I just want to say that I'm enjoying this thread. Conversations like this are not common around this place anymore.


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## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> Regarding Willis'es comments on the Dangerous Dog Act in England, I believe his point was that he didn't see a need for most GSDs or their owners to be/have dogs that were serious working dogs because he believed, "most owners could not cope and that would be a disaster for the GSD." He felt strong dogs that lacked competent handlers would negatively impact public opinion and harm the breed. He thought if you wanted dogs for police work, the police should breed for that, but there are very few police agencies in N.A. or Europe who breed their own dogs. The RCMP and the Slovak police kennels come to mind. Compare this situation to KNPV in Holland, where the main focus is breeding for police dogs and show dogs are not part of the equation. They have a working dog culture, which is much easier to accomplish in a very small country. I understand his concerns, but have a different POV. You can find strong dogs, but it is not so easy. I think a major issue is that too often, people breeding working lines are not creating their own bloodlines and the result is a loss or genetic prepotency. Breeding two very nice dogs is different from breeding two very nice dogs where the breeder has good knowledge of what those dogs' ancestors have produced. I like to see a pedigree that has a fair number of producers of producers. There has to be some confidence that the dominant genetics are in a bloodline for desirable traits, and desirable means more than top sport performance. I don't think the breed should be diluted because there are not enough competent handlers to satisfy the demands of the market, but that horse has already left the barn.


Yes, that’s why you have to read Willis’s book with understanding it’s from a British point of view in reference to the breed. 
Having said that, breeding is much more than breeding two nice dogs or breeding high titles. Most breeders today are lazy and breed to flavor of month, what’s winning, or what they like REGARDLESS of whether the two dogs are complimentary either genotype or phenotype. Examples: 1) genotypically it goes like this...I don’t like this dog because dog X is in his pedigree, but suppose that said dog with X in his pedigree is the BEST dog for who you are breeding to???? Or 2) phenotypically it goes like this...i’ve seen said dog work and he was just mediocre therefore I won’t breed to him, but suppose he is mediocre in the work because his handler is holding him back, or maybe the trainer doesn’t know how to bring out his potential, but he actually compliments the said dog you arebreeding him to. And I’m talking about knowledgeable people; looking for perfection in breeding, where there isn’t any. 
Breeding is about compliment and compensate....not waiting until perfect match comes. In German Shepherds, other than nerves, you can not breed strong to strong but for so long, nor can you breed strong to weak and get the ideal middle.
At least these are my experiences&#55357;&#56842;, I’m not asking anyone to believe me but it’s food for thought!


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> .... you can not breed strong to strong but for so long,....



Agree with everything you wrote except this. If the nerves are there then we should be breeding strong to strong. Breeding average and weak is what has done so much damage to what used to be the number one working breed in the world. Of course the definition of strong will vary depending on the human interpreting it.


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## Ken Clean-Air System

This has been a great and very educational thread! Thank you to all the knowledgeable people that have contributed!

Educate me, if you would ... As I understand, the split primarily occurred around the late 60's and early 70's, with Canto/Quanto related dogs becoming High Line and Bernd/Bodo/Mutz/Marko related dogs the Working Line. Probably an oversimplification, but is that essentially a correct assumption?

Assuming I'm correct in my assumption, I notice that if you go back 5 or 6 generations farther in each one of the 'pillars' of the breed, you find the same dogs.... Canto, Bernd, Marko, Mutz all seem to have a lot of line breeding on Maja vom Osnabrücker Land and Lex Preußenblut. This would have been at the end of WWII ... so what happened between then and Canto, Bernd, etc. that caused such a split in the breed in Germany?

Or am I way off base in my assumptions and missing something? I'm just trying to learn more about the history of the breed


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## Sunsilver

Ken, what happened was the Martin brothers... :rolleyes2:

The legacy of Herr Herman Martin - was it for the better or worse for the GSD - Page 1

Also, take a look at the Iceberg Breeders thread on this forum: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders-16.html


----------



## wolfstraum

Sunsilver said:


> Ken, what happened was the Martin brothers... :rolleyes2:
> 
> The legacy of Herr Herman Martin - was it for the better or worse for the GSD - Page 1
> 
> Also, take a look at the Iceberg Breeders thread on this forum: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders-16.html



Yes! and it is worth remembering that when DNA was started to be used - the SV found that sooooo many pedigrees were reported incorrectly....Arminius was actually suspended for several years....there was an old old old thread on the DB about this and it cited that over 800 pedigrees were found to be incorrect...and the DNA reporting was then suspended for quite a few years....

The Martins wanted to "fix type" and did mother/son, father/daughter and littermate breedings to do so.....and reported it differently .....the whole "black and red" showline type is due to their manipulation.

Lee


----------



## lhczth

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> ..... so what happened between then and Canto, Bernd, etc. that caused such a split in the breed in Germany?



$$$$$$$$


----------



## Sunsilver

wolfstraum said:


> Yes! and it is worth remembering that when DNA was started to be used - the SV found that sooooo many pedigrees were reported incorrectly....Arminius was actually suspended for several years....there was an old old old thread on the DB about this and it cited that over 800 pedigrees were found to be incorrect...and the DNA reporting was then suspended for quite a few years....
> 
> The Martins wanted to "fix type" and did mother/son, father/daughter and littermate breedings to do so.....and reported it differently .....the whole "black and red" showline type is due to their manipulation.
> 
> Lee


Lee, take a look at my second link to the Iceberg Breeders thread. You will find your own post that says EXACTLY that! :grin2:


----------



## Ken Clean-Air System

I've read the Iceberg breeders a number of times ... great thread! 

So, in the era of the earlier dogs I mentioned (from the mid 40's) were there established High and Working lines? I'm trying to figure out what happened to set up the split in the 60's/70's and carried forward to the present. At what point in the breed's relatively short history was there a recognized split between High and Working lines?


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## Sunsilver

No, there was no split until the Martin brothers began to promote the black and red dogs. Read the links already provided for details. It started in the 1970's. Hard to believe two people could so influence the course of the breed, but it happened. Never underestimate the power of politics and money. :crying:


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## cliffson1

lhczth said:


> Agree with everything you wrote except this. If the nerves are there then we should be breeding strong to strong. Breeding average and weak is what has done so much damage to what used to be the number one working breed in the world. Of course the definition of strong will vary depending on the human interpreting it.


I think if you read my statement again, I said “ except for nerves” when it comes to strong to strong&#55357;&#56844;...in other words you always breed for strong nerves with strong nerves.


----------



## cliffson1

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> This has been a great and very educational thread! Thank you to all the knowledgeable people that have contributed!
> 
> Educate me, if you would ... As I understand, the split primarily occurred around the late 60's and early 70's, with Canto/Quanto related dogs becoming High Line and Bernd/Bodo/Mutz/Marko related dogs the Working Line. Probably an oversimplification, but is that essentially a correct assumption?
> 
> Assuming I'm correct in my assumption, I notice that if you go back 5 or 6 generations farther in each one of the 'pillars' of the breed, you find the same dogs.... Canto, Bernd, Marko, Mutz all seem to have a lot of line breeding on Maja vom Osnabrücker Land and Lex Preußenblut. This would have been at the end of WWII ... so what happened between then and Canto, Bernd, etc. that caused such a split in the breed in Germany?
> 
> Or am I way off base in my assumptions and missing something? I'm just trying to learn more about the history of the breed


The L litter Winereau(sp) and subsequent breeding on it and through it.


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## wolfstraum

lhczth said:


> $$$$$$$$


and the ego and arrogance of the Martin brothers....


----------



## cliffson1

Sunsilver said:


> No, there was no split until the Martin brothers began to promote the black and red dogs. Read the links already provided for details. It started in the 1970's. Hard to believe two people could so influence the course of the breed, but it happened. Never underestimate the power of politics and money. :crying:


Actually, there was always a split, high lines,( trophy dogs,Thuringian based) and working/herding ( Swabian/Wurtemberg based) dogs from the beginning. But they mixed them; to compensate for elements of structure, pigment, hardness, gait, etc. Its only when they started omitting different colors from being successful in show ring, did the temperament in SL get in a hand basket. Before that they had high lines, but enough mixture of the other types( Wurtemberg/Swabian) to maintain strong temperament( and have different colors) in general AND when it was apparent that popular/winning dogs were producing weak temperament, SV would put up dogs that were phenotype and genetically strong in temperament to bring back balance. Once the only genetics that could win in the ring ( by the Martins) was black and red dogs, there was no way to bring about a substantial improvement in temperament, so the temperament of these dogs steadily declined as did their uses, outside of show ring and pet home.


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## wolfstraum

Sunsilver said:


> No, there was no split until the Martin brothers began to promote the black and red dogs. Read the links already provided for details. It started in the 1970's. Hard to believe two people could so influence the course of the breed, but it happened. Never underestimate the power of politics and money. :crying:




Many readers may not understand the dynamics of the SV Sieger show....

One (both????) Martin brothers was/were President of the SV - traditionally the President judges the Sieger show....and thus shapes the direction of all breeders by choosing the top dogs and style/type of dogs to be striven for in breeding....they bred, they chose, they shaped and all the show breeders followed....thus over the period they shaped the breed....

EXCERPT FROM A DISCUSSION IN THE UK:
_
During the later half of the twentieth century the world of the SV, the German Shepherd, was increasingly dominated and transformed by a cabal of new men focused on the form, structure and external appearance of the German Shepherd with a concurrent, gradual, incessant loss of focus on the working origins of the breed. 

Perhaps the penultimate instance of this were the Martin brothers, Walter of the von der Wienerau kennel and Herman whose kennel was vom Arminius. Walter was the guiding light, the architect of the new German Shepherd, and Herman was SV president from 1984 until 1994, only two years before the passing of both brothers within weeks in the fall of 1996.

Incest was endemic at the top, for when Walter’s dogs became Sieger it was Herman in his role of SV president who was making the selections and handing out the trophies, when he was not actually selecting his own dogs, as in these Sieger selections:

1986 & 1987 Quando von Arminius 

1992 Zamb von der Wienerau 

1996 Visum von Arminius 

Let us consider Zamb von der Wienerau. From the Pedigree Dog Database in 2004: To make a dog like this Sieger was a criminal act by Hermann Martin in aid of his cheating brother Walter, the dog had heavy HD as certified by the Italian Veterinary Hospital, there is also ample evidence that the pedigree of this dog was fake and also suggestions that there were 2 or maybe 3 Zambs. Anyone who ever had a bitch mated by any of Walters dogs will remember that no-one was ever allowed to attend a mating, so you were never sure just which dog had mated your bitch, this was also the reason why Hermann Martin fought so vehemently against the introduction of DNA testing, just have a look today, if Wienerau had such top breeding material to produce VA animals at will, what happened to them when both brothers died?? Did the bitches get burried with them??? There is not a single Wienerau dog in sight and the only Arminius dogs are those from Peter Send.
_


----------



## Ken Clean-Air System

Sunsilver said:


> No, there was no split until the Martin brothers began to promote the black and red dogs. Read the links already provided for details. It started in the 1970's. Hard to believe two people could so influence the course of the breed, but it happened. Never underestimate the power of politics and money. :crying:


Thanks, and that was my assumption. I've read most of what has been linked before, some numerous times over the years. I guess what surprised me was that all of the most often mentioned dogs of that era (Canto, Bernd, Marko, Mutz) go back to line breedings on the same dogs from the mid 1940s. And also that one or two people could exert such an influence over the breed.


----------



## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> I think if you read my statement again, I said “ except for nerves” when it comes to strong to strong��...in other words you always breed for strong nerves with strong nerves.


Misinterpretation of the written word.  I actually did read it several times. LOL


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## lhczth

wolfstraum said:


> and the ego and arrogance of the Martin brothers....


Yes, but I am not sure things would have changed so badly if not for how much money these dogs could bring to those at the top (and still do). The rest had to follow if they wanted to be able to sell puppies.


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## cliffson1

lhczth said:


> Misinterpretation of the written word.  I actually did read it several times. LOL


No problem, I often run my thoughts together or omit punctuation that would give better clarity.


----------



## Nigel

cliffson1 said:


> I think I said show and police/ performance dogs from same litters....would surprise you huh? Look up Bernd/Bodo v Lierberg, or Marko vom Cellerland or Mutz v d Peltzerferm or Frei v d Gugge ......these were all VA in show and directly produced Multiple dogs that were Bundesseigerprufund in IPO and VA in show and police dogs. As a matter of fact Bodo was German Seiger in show, his brother was VA3 and for twenty year period Bernd had produced the most participants in the Bundesseigerprufund ( National Sch championships in Germany) ....*dogs at highest level in show and performance from same stock.
> I know that is not the case today, but not because it’s not possible*.


Assuming the GSD "political climate" returned to what it was before the Martin bros, would any of the dogs of today or say the past 10-20 yrs measure up against those you've mentioned here?


----------



## cliffson1

Nigel said:


> Assuming the GSD "political climate" returned to what it was before the Martin bros, would any of the dogs of today or say the past 10-20 yrs measure up against those you've mentioned here?


Sure, there are plenty of dogs today that measure up against the dogs of yesterday. Every dog i have had in past 40 some years would measure up. My current 9 month old puppy is same type dog as years before. Some of us never changed our standards of what we accept as suitable breeding dogs. Some of us never changed the type of training we expect our dog to excel in. 
I just don’t utilize dogs in breeding dogs that would compromise these standards, or who would introduce entrenched genetic weaknesses. 
That’s why you can’t breed without genetic knowledge or rely on titles for breeding as I said 5 pages ago. In Germany they give titles out like candy, and on both sides of the pond you have entire lines of dogs that the weaknesses are very entrenched. 
Carmen brought up a good example of isolation and lack of genetic diversity when she mentioned the “ Alsatian”, in Britain. These folks for 40 year period because of not wanting to use GS from homeland( Germany) and the difficult quarantine laws developed the Alsatian dog. The similarities between the Alsatian and other lines here in States is very similar, though the structure is different. 
Anyway, to again answer your question, there are definitely dogs being bred today every bit as good as dogs of the past.
The only reason these dogs I speak of can’t excell in show and work, is because the show people motivated by money and ribbons, have changed the structure and temperament of winning show dogs,( color&angulation) to be incompatible with highly functional working dogs. But if the standard of judging show dogs were the same as they were 50 years ago, these dogs I speak of today would win in show ring and be top working dog. After all, the breed and standard is the same as it was then....why has the Judging changed????


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## cliffson1

In all fairness, the sport GS, imo, is going in the same direction. Understand as others have said, Wolfstraum and others, that IPO/Schutzhund was not a sport back then. They have actually changed the degree of difficulty ( by changing difficulty I mean it’s omitted elements that stress or challenge the dog, and increased the difficulty of training techniques to acquire points) in IPO as it has evolved into a sport, that it now measures the handling/training moreso than the dog. Things that would show the inside strengths of the dog have been eased and things to accentuate the handling skills and training techniques have become the focus. So much so, that it requires a certain type of dog to be a podium dog these days, and other very strong dogs will never do great in sport, although they are great working dogs. ( Unless they have the 1% top handler or trainer in world)....which just strengthens my point that trials today do not really evaluate the breed as much as the training on the dog.
There is an in-depth article on this by Jim Engel that expounds on this....Ive been saying this for more than a decade.


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## mycobraracr

cliffson1 said:


> In all fairness, the sport GS, imo, is going in the same direction. Understand as others have said, Wolfstraum and others, that IPO/Schutzhund was not a sport back then. They have actually changed the degree of difficulty ( by changing difficulty I mean it’s omitted elements that stress or challenge the dog, and increased the difficulty of training techniques to acquire points) in IPO as it has evolved into a sport, that it now measures the handling/training moreso than the dog. Things that would show the inside strengths of the dog have been eased and things to accentuate the handling skills and training techniques have become the focus. So much so, that it requires a certain type of dog to be a podium dog these days, and other very strong dogs will never do great in sport, although they are great working dogs. ( Unless they have the 1% top handler or trainer in world)....which just strengthens my point that trials today do not really evaluate the breed as much as the training on the dog.
> There is an in-depth article on this by Jim Engel that expounds on this....Ive been saying this for more than a decade.



I could not love this more. I've been saying the same thing.


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## dogbyte

I have seen so much watering down of the true working dog in Schutzhund/IPO trials in the 25 years I have been involved. Must say the last 10 years I have not been active in the sport. Got tired of the drama, politics, and abusive training in my then local clubs. I remember when the Malinois was the exception as they didn't have the aggression/defense that they wanted. Now to me it seems to have gone the way of the prey dogs..That being said I do have a young pup that I may work with a newer local club. And I know if I compete I won't be a "high in trial" competitor. I would I be wrong in saying that's a good thing? My late Jaden and I played bite work with a legit police dog trainer. We talked about competing with him (he had his BH) just to take him on the field to show what a working dog should look like. He wasn't perfect. But the trainer said he would have taken him on the streets any day. Safe, serious, confident. Didn't want to win the sleeve and prance around with it. He wanted the fight. These discussions are of great interest. Love learning about the bloodlines and what they produced. How a few can influence a breed so drastically. Thanks for all that share their wealth of knowledge.


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## Steve Strom

cliffson1 said:


> Sure, there are plenty of dogs today that measure up against the dogs of yesterday. Every dog i have had in past 40 some years would measure up.


Just curious, which ones did you title? Was there a reason for titling one vs the other? Its an honest question related to the differences in the dogs.


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## cliffson1

Steve Strom said:


> Just curious, which ones did you title? Was there a reason for titling one vs the other? Its an honest question related to the differences in the dogs.


No problem Steve, I raise dogs to go into LE work primarily. The last dog I titled in IPO was around 2003, the last dog in SDA was 2013, my last dog before this puppy, Arko (2016) was raised and trained to 13 months and he went to police academy, before him Maverick vom Wildhaus,( 2014) he also went to academy and is on streets, before him Chris Aritar Bastet,(2012) also on streets in NJ and honored at the 100 Anniversary of German Shepherd by the GSDCA, and I could go on....all these dogs I train up to they are ready to go to academy, ( I have advantage of training with police as I am member of USPCA) and then I start with new pup. In 2012, I raised pup from 8 weeks to 13 months, then he went to sport home in Illinois, where he is titled to IPO 2 And trained with Ronnie Weiss. 
The reason I titled the one in early 2000 was because I was member of a couple Sch clubs then, in 2010 we started first SDA club on East Coast, which I liked better because it had PD titles although it was sport. It used jackets and muzzles, that I felt gave better preparation for end goal of my dogs. 
Btw, I also titled a dog in Sch in 198o, when you still had reed sticks, straight walls, etc. 
I like IPO, especially the foundation work, but I have seen the breed move toward Mal traits over the years, chasing the points. People think I am anti show or anti sport, I am not!, but I am anti the evolution of both of these items. They both have there place in our breed.
One last thing Steve that goes to your question, there are great strong dogs in sport world that would easily make transition to LE dogs, I have said this on numerous occasions, and folks that don’t like my narrative omit that part of my narrative, BUT that doesn’t change the direction the breed is moving toward in the sport world.
Just like 25 years ago, you still had some European SL dogs that could still do LE work( not a lot but some), today it’s rare to find SL dog that can do LE work well enough to certify.


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## Steve Strom

I don't mean what you've done, more along the lines of why, if that makes sense. I'm just looking for your perspective on the temperaments with your own dogs. I think there have always been differences, you stated that and it caught my attention. Personally, I think the differences are good, but which dog did you decide to take into sport instead of police? I'd like to take a look at the pedigree out of curiosity, maybe compared to Maverick.


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## TAPAL2017

There were quite a few pups in the Bodo/Berndt litter... I seem to recall that both Bandit and Dolph were also fairly successful dogs in their own venues. Good accomplishments given the Martin brothers influence on the direction of the breed at that time.

"Dennis Fisher describes -- “Bodo” a very powerfully built dog, with excellent gait, and superb temperament" see his article for a full description at CONFLICT BETWEEN SHOW DOG BREEDE 

As Cliffson1 mentions below-- Bodo wasn't used much by American Show breeders and his owner & handler - Erich Renner, was very involved with a Seeing Eye Dog Foundation school in California and Bodo was used as one of their foundation studs quite successfully. Sadly-- Seeing Eye appears to have moved on to other less "controversial" breeds. 

As a side note, I think Fidelco Guide Dogs may be the only strictly GSD guide dog school left in the USA these days (would be glad to hear differently if anyone is aware of others). I seem to recall the Kaman's (founders) were originally using Kirschental stock but had to switch over to other Bavarian based lines in the last few decades?


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## carmspack

cliffson1 said:


> Sure, there are plenty of dogs today that measure up against the dogs of yesterday. Every dog i have had in past 40 some years would measure up. My current 9 month old puppy is same type dog as years before. Some of us never changed our standards of what we accept as suitable breeding dogs. Some of us never changed the type of training we expect our dog to excel in.
> I just don’t utilize dogs in breeding dogs that would compromise these standards, or who would introduce entrenched genetic weaknesses.
> That’s why you can’t breed without genetic knowledge or rely on titles for breeding as I said 5 pages ago. In Germany they give titles out like candy, and on both sides of the pond you have entire lines of dogs that the weaknesses are very entrenched.
> Carmen brought up a good example of isolation and lack of genetic diversity when she mentioned the “ Alsatian”, in Britain. These folks for 40 year period because of not wanting to use GS from homeland( Germany) and the difficult quarantine laws developed the Alsatian dog. The similarities between the Alsatian and other lines here in States is very similar, though the structure is different.
> Anyway, to again answer your question, there are definitely dogs being bred today every bit as good as dogs of the past.
> The only reason these dogs I speak of can’t excell in show and work, is because the show people motivated by money and ribbons, have changed the structure and temperament of winning show dogs,( color&angulation) to be incompatible with highly functional working dogs. But if the standard of judging show dogs were the same as they were 50 years ago, these dogs I speak of today would win in show ring and be top working dog. After all, the breed and standard is the same as it was then....why has the Judging changed????


well worth repeating.

cliff --- check , check and check is same type dog as years before. Some of us never changed our standards of what we accept as suitable breeding dogs"

I only wanted to cut out bits and pieces to show that , what I said some 20 plus years ago for the creation of this web-site , hold true to this day. There is NO deviation. Study and fine tuning and increasing success ratios - hopefully , but never waivered . Unfortunately I could not cut and paste the bits so I offer the page . I am NOT promoting anything - I have no pups and if I did they have working destinys already. Carmspack Working German Shepherds, Bloodlines

On the same page I say "working traits do not suddenly appear , but must be maintained , selected for each and every generation"

I draw attention to this idea because it goes to the heart of why ASL's now giving lip service to working can honestly not get anywhere because in the 40 plus years of "moses" and Lance dominated genetics have lost "it" . Like wolfstraum said they are like Bassett Hounds in comparison to the working GSD that she enjoys. Can't . 

and while we are here in this use of an old website I am going to use this. little snippet
to show a male GSD Open link Carmspack Working German Shepherds, Our Record
see picture of dog immediately to the left of the title --- 
A career dog with NH State Troopers --- having multi mile track- apprehending armed and resisting bad guys - and meeting the escalation and desperation of the fight without fail nor hesitation --- fierce and fromidable
and yet here is the very same dog , in his home , still in service , but now with a new , first , human baby to join the family --http://www.carmspack.com/3_our_record/record_page2/our_record2.htm
(grey sable , laying beside little baby in a soft green onesy)

same dog -- gentle --- and loving --

his mother was Carmspack Mokka Peters

his father was a west coast local male that was linebred on Bodo Lierberg --- not sport -- but a member of a line of dogs that were kick backs to the seeing eye -- 
Several of his line went to Coast Guard , trucking firms that did customs sweeps , LE and guide .
Not listed anywhere on the data bases . Names were not familiar in the public realm .

I approved the breeding , and Kai, the dog in the links spent the first 9 months with me .

So Bodo was used . But it was at a turning point when people joined the Canto Club and the Lance Club ,


----------



## carmspack

I have my own Willis experience.

I had written a few times -- before emails , so paper and post .

My communications were with a view to exploring Hip Dysplasia . He had a lot of data in his role
as an analyst for the British hip score programme. Data was then compared to USA research and Swedish studies.

Mr Willis ---- had GSD --- the dogs he had probably would have been closer to the Bernese Mountain Dogs that he shared his life with - on the board for the Bernese club? 
They , like the GSD , had problems with hips.

The GSD that were in Britain suited the needs of the country and the people . Pets with a certain "look"

the did NOT need herding dogs. This is important . The GSD has a specific herding application , which is containment .

The Brits had their own superor breed of herding dog which suited their own grazing and sheep . 
That would have been the Border Collie .

Totally totally different. HGH requires a differnt dog , a different mind set a different spirit of authority to influence the sheep -- which are different also.

Yet , when we test herding instinct --- we test using behaviours good for a border collie --- terrible for a GSD .
GSD should not be making prey with the sheep !!!!!! 

So the GSD that developed in Britain were totally suitable for the people - at the time.

There was no need for them to be aggressive or protective -- this was a time when the police did not carry guns .

things have changed.


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## cliffson1

Steve Strom said:


> I don't mean what you've done, more along the lines of why, if that makes sense. I'm just looking for your perspective on the temperaments with your own dogs. I think there have always been differences, you stated that and it caught my attention. Personally, I think the differences are good, but which dog did you decide to take into sport instead of police? I'd like to take a look at the pedigree out of curiosity, maybe compared to Maverick.


Steve, if I’m understanding you right, then it depends on a couple things. By the time the dog is 8 months, I have a pretty good feel if a dog is going to be successful as a LE dog. I have said this on many many occasions, that the biggest hindrance to LE work in the breed these days is lack of environmental nerve. I haven’t had a dog recently that you couldn’t get to do decent bitework on open field with a sleeve. But many dogs today do not have that confidence on surfaces, dark, new areas, ( it’s not that they can’t or that maybe after 1000 repetitions they get it, or after 3 years of training they will get the goal; but many dogs today when introducing these elements drop down in confidence and drive so much that they won’t make it), and many dogs today have very limited fight drive. Many dogs today have very high play drive but not actual prey drive,( the difference being play drive will chase, launch, and have fabulous grips, but prey will chase, hold and fight the prey if necessary). I look for the latter for LE work with environmental soundness, while the former can go to sport where environmental soundness isn’t a requirement, nor real fight, and the dog has unlimited time to build up to acceptable standards. Both of these dogs are very nice dogs in everyday situations, good nerves, good drives, a lot of fun to train....but when presented with extreme stress, time limitations to training, and having to perform at any time, anywhere, no matter the weather, the terrain, the surfaces( like on bus, or train, or go up escalator or elevator or on boat/ship) I can’t have a dog that will not work just as hard even though this is new. 
So, by 8-10 months, I pretty well know who will do welll on sport field or LE, who will do well on sport field but not LE, and who( like Maverick who had very low prey, but high hunt and tremendous fight drive) will do well on LE but not sport. 
I hope I am answering your question.


----------



## cliffson1

TAPAL2017 said:


> There were quite a few pups in the Bodo/Berndt litter... I seem to recall that both Bandit and Dolph were also fairly successful dogs in their own venues. Good accomplishments given the Martin brothers influence on the direction of the breed at that time.
> 
> "Dennis Fisher describes -- “Bodo” a very powerfully built dog, with excellent gait, and superb temperament" see his article for a full description at CONFLICT BETWEEN SHOW DOG BREEDE
> 
> As Cliffson1 mentions below-- Bodo wasn't used much by American Show breeders and his owner & handler - Erich Renner, was very involved with a Seeing Eye Dog Foundation school in California and Bodo was used as one of their foundation studs quite successfully. Sadly-- Seeing Eye appears to have moved on to other less "controversial" breeds.
> 
> As a side note, I think Fidelco Guide Dogs may be the only strictly GSD guide dog school left in the USA these days (would be glad to hear differently if anyone is aware of others). I seem to recall the Kaman's (founders) were originally using Kirschental stock but had to switch over to other Bavarian based lines in the last few decades?


Do you know WHY they have moved on? I had in-depth conversation with head trainer for Morristown Seeing eye program a few years ago and it was explained...take a guess?
Btw, you are starting to see some German Shepherds again in this service, guess what type dogs are they?


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## Sunsilver

Pretty sure the answer to that is not enough nerve. As you've said elsewhere, being a Seeing Eye dog takes really superb nerves, to manage city traffic and changing surfaces.

And I'm darn sure the dogs with enough nerve to do the ob aren't show line GSDs but German working line. I would be interested to know exactly what dogs are in their pedigrees.

It wouldn't surprise me to see HGH blood in the pedigree.


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## wolfstraum

Sunsilver said:


> Pretty sure the answer to that is not enough nerve. As you've said elsewhere, being a Seeing Eye dog takes really superb nerves, to manage city traffic and changing surfaces.
> 
> And I'm darn sure the dogs with enough nerve to do the ob aren't show line GSDs but German working line. I would be interested to know exactly what dogs are in their pedigrees.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me to see HGH blood in the pedigree.


crossing fingers - My HGH female has been bred to a dog being used by the Seeing Eye - he is pure DDR lines from dogs Steve Lino had...

Lee


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## mycobraracr

cliffson1 said:


> Steve, if I’m understanding you right, then it depends on a couple things. By the time the dog is 8 months, I have a pretty good feel if a dog is going to be successful as a LE dog. I have said this on many many occasions, that the biggest hindrance to LE work in the breed these days is lack of environmental nerve. I haven’t had a dog recently that you couldn’t get to do decent bitework on open field with a sleeve. But many dogs today do not have that confidence on surfaces, dark, new areas, ( it’s not that they can’t or that maybe after 1000 repetitions they get it, or after 3 years of training they will get the goal; but many dogs today when introducing these elements drop down in confidence and drive so much that they won’t make it), and many dogs today have very limited fight drive. Many dogs today have very high play drive but not actual prey drive,( the difference being play drive will chase, launch, and have fabulous grips, but prey will chase, hold and fight the prey if necessary). I look for the latter for LE work with environmental soundness, while the former can go to sport where environmental soundness isn’t a requirement, nor real fight, and the dog has unlimited time to build up to acceptable standards. Both of these dogs are very nice dogs in everyday situations, good nerves, good drives, a lot of fun to train....but when presented with extreme stress, time limitations to training, and having to perform at any time, anywhere, no matter the weather, the terrain, the surfaces( like on bus, or train, or go up escalator or elevator or on boat/ship) I can’t have a dog that will not work just as hard even though this is new.
> So, by 8-10 months, I pretty well know who will do welll on sport field or LE, who will do well on sport field but not LE, and who( like Maverick who had very low prey, but high hunt and tremendous fight drive) will do well on LE but not sport.
> I hope I am answering your question.



The question is, how many breeders do you know who work their dogs like this? Too many don't actually know their dogs. Or if they do put them in a situation like this, they have the dog so jacked up in drive that it helps overcome some of the short comings of the dog. I'm always asking breeders what they do to test their dogs besides sport fields, yet I never get answers. Or I always get the "everyday life tells me the rest". Perhaps, but like what?


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## konathegsd

Using shepherds for service work was not as successful as using labs or Golden’s. The washout rate is much higher for programs who were incorporating shepherds. I have visited two programs recently and both of them had talked down on shepherds in service work. I understand why it would be harder to use shepherds in programs, but some of the labs I saw were anxious, timid, lacking in confidence, soft.


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## Steve Strom

cliffson1 said:


> The last dog I titled in IPO was around 2003, .


What's his name? My interest in pedigrees isn't like your's, but I do find it interesting how many of the same dogs pop up in them and which direction they ended up going.


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## Steve Strom

dogbyte said:


> I have seen so much watering down of the true working dog in Schutzhund/IPO trials in the 25 years I have been involved. Must say the last 10 years I have not been active in the sport. Got tired of the drama, politics, and abusive training in my then local clubs. I remember when the Malinois was the exception as they didn't have the aggression/defense that they wanted. Now to me it seems to have gone the way of the prey dogs..That being said I do have a young pup that I may work with a newer local club. And I know if I compete I won't be a "high in trial" competitor. I would I be wrong in saying that's a good thing? My late Jaden and I played bite work with a legit police dog trainer. We talked about competing with him (he had his BH) just to take him on the field to show what a working dog should look like. He wasn't perfect. But the trainer said he would have taken him on the streets any day. Safe, serious, confident. Didn't want to win the sleeve and prance around with it. He wanted the fight. These discussions are of great interest. Love learning about the bloodlines and what they produced. How a few can influence a breed so drastically. Thanks for all that share their wealth of knowledge.


Hey Dogbyte, you worked and titled at least one of your dogs beyond a BH right? Or am I confusing you with someone else?


----------



## Nigel

Steve Strom said:


> What's his name? My interest in pedigrees isn't like your's, but I do find it interesting how many of the same dogs pop up in them and which direction they ended up going.


I've become more curious about my dogs pedigree, but I only have half of it (sire side). Still many of the dogs you see pointed out as "needing to be used cautiously" or not at all by some are in the PD. Not sure what I might have expected to see on paper vs the dog in front of me, but I'm hoping to learn from it.


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## carmspack

sunsilver --- said "It wouldn't surprise me to see HGH blood in the pedigree."

sure ---- genetics . NOT titles . not hgh kirschental !!!!!
tried and failed.

why? nerves

why? size.- too large 

why? inappropriate social balance ---- the dog was either not the tolerant , adaptable but socially aloof dog - 
or the dog was at the other end of the spectrum - social concerns and anxiety 

spent a few years shadowing teams of dogs going through the city-is-a-campu training and evaluation process.

some were seeking attention , others couldn't handle commotion or close proximity


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## mspiker03

I live (or mostly spend time in now that we had to move) in a really small town. I seriously can't be the only one who sees STABLE German showlines as service dogs. My friend had two (and she had to retire a working line one because of nerve issues)! I did not meet one as he had passed. Met the other who was great. And I am fairly certain someone else in town has one who is coated. I have also seen working line ones in town. But all the showline service dogs could not have just randomly congregated in Lake Tahoe.


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## konathegsd

mspiker03 said:


> I live (or mostly spend time in now that we had to move) in a really small town. I seriously can't be the only one who sees STABLE German showlines as service dogs. My friend had two (and she had to retire a working line one because of nerve issues)! I did not meet one as he had passed. Met the other who was great. And I am fairly certain someone else in town has one who is coated. I have also seen working line ones in town. But all the showline service dogs could not have just randomly congregated in Lake Tahoe.


i know of at least one solid german showline service dog. I know MANY more working line service dogs though.


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## mspiker03

Oh - I know of several working line ones. I am not commenting on any sort of ratio or that working line service dogs don't exist - just that I can't be the only one who sees showlines as service dogs.


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## dogbyte

Steve, I titled my first dog to his SchIII, then put BHs on 3 others. It would have been in the late 90s that I put the titles on Chance.


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## carmspack

when you use the word "service dog" that has a broad range of definition.

I thought the discussion had to do with GUIDE dogs ---


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## konathegsd

carmspack said:


> when you use the word "service dog" that has a broad range of definition.
> 
> I thought the discussion had to do with GUIDE dogs ---


True, very different. I suspect it is of similar reason why almost all service/guide organizations have stopped using shepherds. Washout rate.


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## wolfstraum

I know Guiding Eyes in NY State has German Shepherds in their program....they recently brought in a privately owned DDR bred male and the testing he went through was quite extensive....not only health (both OFA and Penn Hip) but various temperament tests and environmental challenges were examined.

The dog is also a licensed, certified Blood Trailing dog in NY State.


Lee


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## Nelly

carmspack said:


> sunsilver --- said "It wouldn't surprise me to see HGH blood in the pedigree."
> 
> sure ---- genetics . NOT titles . not hgh kirschental !!!!!
> tried and failed.
> 
> why? nerves
> 
> why? size.- too large
> 
> why? inappropriate social balance ---- the dog was either not the tolerant , adaptable but socially aloof dog -
> or the dog was at the other end of the spectrum - social concerns and anxiety
> 
> spent a few years shadowing teams of dogs going through the city-is-a-campu training and evaluation process.
> 
> some were seeking attention , others couldn't handle commotion or close proximity


Hi Carmspack,

Are you able to elaborate on your experience with Kirschental ? Specifically when you were referring to "not the tolerant, adaptable but socially aloof dog", so they were either overly social or anxious ?

thanks


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## Sunsilver

Nelly, I think I can answer your question. The older Kirschental dogs were good dogs, and could herd all day. Then the split happened between show and working line in Germany. The Kirschental kennel wanted their dogs to still be able to compete in the Sieger show, so they sacrificed working ability for looks and sidegait.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Carmen can fill in the details, if you want to know more. :frown2:


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think she was questioning more on the social aspect of the breed. I would be curious to hear more on that myself.


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## carmspack

sure - 

re - the difference between titled hgh and old hgh genetics '
Karl Fullers Krishental brand was reinvigorated when he married a younger woman
who had been active in the show lines .
The direction of the dog changed . Show line genetics with titles , with the kirschental brand.

not at all the same.

to explain -- the comparison is like the enthusiast that belongs to a historic society and enthusiastically
participates in weeken dress up re enactments to the person who is deployed in some real area of conflict.


re -- the the off kilter social aspect 

there is a breed specific expectation that the GSD be self assured , loyal and aloof.
Aloof means indifferent . 

this is a difficult thing to appreciate . It is not hostile . It does not include aoiding or being withdrawn.

many a time on this forum we have people who have taken on a new pup - and were either sold the bill of goods 
or misinterpreted a shy , too cautious pup as being aloof.

no it wasn't , no it isn't.

for all the rigours of work , whether that be LE or guide - the more important it becomes that the dog is as close to a perfect specimen - in character and temperament and functional body , as possible .

no compromises , no deviations . Target for that ideal .

a GSD should not be bred to have the characteristics of any other breed , golden retirevers or labs 

when a major part of the GSD breed ideal is off kilter - so are other things 

guide is not emotional support or therapy ---


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## konathegsd

wolfstraum said:


> I know Guiding Eyes in NY State has German Shepherds in their program....they recently brought in a privately owned DDR bred male and the testing he went through was quite extensive....not only health (both OFA and Penn Hip) but various temperament tests and environmental challenges were examined.
> 
> The dog is also a licensed, certified Blood Trailing dog in NY State.
> 
> 
> Lee


Do you happen to know the pedigree of this ddr male ? I would love to see it.

I know someone who is puppy raising a gsd currently for “the seeing eye” and the pup is having some issues, and both sire and dam are guide dogs.

I found this video very interesting, check out this fidelco guide dog. (1:54)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx4SMPDY76s


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## Shepdad

I wonder what you think of context specific aloofness Carmen. My DDR herding female was aloof when working. Totally ignored people when working. She just had killer focus on her job and my commands. Yet at home she was friendly to friendly visitors. I could not really tell how she would react to unfriendly visitors since we never had any. Very high thresholds that had to be deliberately provoked in training to activate defense drive.

I remember that Karl Fuller basically kept two lines of dogs. He had his pure show lines that showed in the BSZS every year under the HGH category. The one thing different from the other SLs was that their pedigree was all WGSL except for the bottom part of their mother line which went way back to Fenga and Blanka, his foundation female. The most famous one of course was the 83 VA1 Eiko. This is typical of those types of pedigrees, Amigos vom Kirschental

Then he also had his work lines which consisted of WGWL line with female lines that again go back to Fenga and Blanka. This one example among many, just the first one that popped up in PD, born around same time as Amigos above, Abbie vom Haus Kirschental. You never really hear about this second line. my guess is Herr Fuller just sold them to people who herded.

He also had a third line of mixed WGWL on top, with WGSL on bottom, but always with Fenga and Blanka in the female tail line. Here is an example with Glen H., son of Manto, grandson of Lord G., as sire, Ollie vom Kirschental

Then he also had the famous U-litter Kirschental, Uwe and Uran, from Fenga and Drigon Fuhrmannshof. Fenga was of course a Bernd and Blanka granddaughter. The U-litter was famous in the schutzhund world and could be found in many pedigrees in the 90s in the ScH community in the U.S. However, Herr Fuller never followed up on this litter. He never had a line strangely enough that was founded on U-litter even though hard core ScH people like Koos Hassing bred from U-litter.


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## cliffson1

konathegsd said:


> Using shepherds for service work was not as successful as using labs or Golden’s. The washout rate is much higher for programs who were incorporating shepherds. I have visited two programs recently and both of them had talked down on shepherds in service work. I understand why it would be harder to use shepherds in programs, but some of the labs I saw were anxious, timid, lacking in confidence, soft.


Why did the Shepherds washout?


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## cliffson1

Steve Strom said:


> What's his name? My interest in pedigrees isn't like your's, but I do find it interesting how many of the same dogs pop up in them and which direction they ended up going.


Baron vom Buchonia was his name.


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## Sunsilver

Cross between DDR lines and German show lines...now that's a surprise!


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## carmspack

for some reason I can't open the Ollie or other links.

Give the sire and dam and I'll hunt around .

Kirschental ended with U litter --- or before -- 

the rest and all the other accessory lines were using the brand name . The young show line enthusiast wife that took over management .

breeders that took up the brand were like franchisees 

how does this stand up ?


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## onyx'girl

I would like to see stick hit or three....


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## carmspack

down - stay -- very good - solid

guard the object? does not have a clue 

fun dog for weekend training hobby --- (fun as a member of a re enactment team)


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## Nelly

carmspack said:


> sure -
> 
> re - the difference between titled hgh and old hgh genetics '
> Karl Fullers Krishental brand was reinvigorated when he married a younger woman
> who had been active in the show lines .
> The direction of the dog changed . Show line genetics with titles , with the kirschental brand.
> 
> not at all the same.
> 
> to explain -- the comparison is like the enthusiast that belongs to a historic society and enthusiastically
> participates in weeken dress up re enactments to the person who is deployed in some real area of conflict.
> 
> 
> re -- the the off kilter social aspect
> 
> there is a breed specific expectation that the GSD be self assured , loyal and aloof.
> Aloof means indifferent .
> 
> this is a difficult thing to appreciate . It is not hostile . It does not include aoiding or being withdrawn.
> 
> many a time on this forum we have people who have taken on a new pup - and were either sold the bill of goods
> or misinterpreted a shy , too cautious pup as being aloof.
> 
> no it wasn't , no it isn't.
> 
> -



Thank you Carmspack and Sunsilver.

I got the impression Carmspack you had introduced recent Kirschental showlines into your breeding program ad you were referring to your experiences ?

Ollie Kirschental still goes to Jeck, Fedor in his mother line same old show stuff. I heard of success of U litter for work-wish they stayed more with that line.


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## carmspack

Nelly said 
I got the impression Carmspack you had introduced recent Kirschental showlines into your breeding program ad you were referring to your experiences ?

This will never happen. never.


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## carmspack

just to finish up a line of enquiry that sunsilver wondered about --- the "American" experience

Lance became the predominant line -- intensely line and inbred on -- 

could things have been different? 

sure .

that alternative line , which complemented Lance's German background was that of Yoncalla's Mike - and his sire Mr America 

Mike and his brother Wilhelm were used by kennels that paid attention to working and trainability --- balanced dogs 

the line got more attention on the west coast --- Mesdag of von Nassau used him --- combined with the solid Rocky Reach GSD s
there is one combination , I believe a "Covy" breeding before they co-operative covy-tucker hill ---- very interesting pedigree -- I just have to remember one key name and it will come back to me.

interesting because it did include Yoncalla's Mike , and BODO LIERBERG , and I believe Lance was on the maternal line.

if I remember I will post it.



There is even a pedigree


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## cliffson1

Sunsilver said:


> Cross between DDR lines and German show lines...now that's a surprise!


“Old” DDR/Czech lines, not the new ones.


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## Sunsilver

Cliff, it's certainly NOT the DDR side of the pedigree that's the surprise! :surprise:


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## Steve Strom

cliffson1 said:


> Baron vom Buchonia was his name.


Did you know the breeder? What the plan behind that mix was? Or was it just a matter of the dog in front of you?


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## Steve Strom

dogbyte said:


> Steve, I titled my first dog to his SchIII, then put BHs on 3 others. It would have been in the late 90s that I put the titles on Chance.


I thought I had seen that. I like IPO, I like the huge majority of people I've met, and in my opinion the dogs are what they are, now, and back in the day. Its pretty clear which dogs are this or that, but different clubs, areas, different experiences.


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## carmspack

Steve Strom said:


> Did you know the breeder? What the plan behind that mix was? Or was it just a matter of the dog in front of you?


Cliff is the breeder ! 

I have Baron's pedigree in my file cabinet . There was a picture of both Cliff and Baron .
Nice to see the attentive heeling --- which looks "normal" .
Nice full grips !!! 

we have Klockow's Lex -- a DDR dog that I went to directly --- two pups out of that .
One became important brood . The male became RCMP dog --- still have requests for more "him".

Cliff - this is like Penn and Telleer codie speak -- Anno and Angel -- wink


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## cliffson1

Steve Strom said:


> Did you know the breeder? What the plan behind that mix was? Or was it just a matter of the dog in front of you?


I bred the dog....yes there was plan for breeding. To produce a dog capable of LE work...I owned both parents....I guess I was lucky!
Btw, I bred him to an Alk vom Osterberg Quelle( Lord son) daughter, she was my female, and kept a pup...trained him, and he went to NYSP as patrol dog in Albany.


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## GypsyGhost

Cliff, I hope it’s ok for me to ask further questions about Baron. What qualities did his parent’s or other ancestors in the pedigree possess that made you think the pairing would produce good LE dogs? Especially the dogs from the bottom of the pedigree. Were any of them titled or actual working dogs?


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## Steve Strom

Its funny, but through this pedigree, I do kinda see where some of what you say comes from. When I read your posts, I have a different context with them now.


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## cliffson1

GypsyGhost said:


> Cliff, I hope it’s ok for me to ask further questions about Baron. What qualities did his parent’s or other ancestors in the pedigree possess that made you think the pairing would produce good LE dogs? Especially the dogs from the bottom of the pedigree. Were any of them titled or actual working dogs?


GG, certainly it’s ok to ask my thinking, though I rather enjoy the skeptics who read my posts as unconventional and me not having a clue&#55357;&#56873;.
I’m going to do this publicly, though I no longer like to a analyze publicly. 
First, let me say I do/have done a LOT of research on all the key lines in this pedigree with either first hand knowledge of the lines or direct conversations with people who knew these dogs, or has seen them work or trained with them.
Also, unconventionally I place far more emphasis on genetics than I do on titles. This has been for past thirty years as many titles really don’t reflect enough of what I’m looking for, and good training doesn’t pass genetically to offspring. I understand that flys in face of conventional wisdom, but until I start producing crap dogs or sending people to crap breedings, I see no reason to change.

Angel: Angel was SL dog with rock solid nerves that I trained to BH level in obedience. Her father Ilko was out of Nanto Dan Alhedy Hoeve. Nanto was from Holland and very strong in the work as most GS from Holland tend to be. His father Mark had good work ethic and produced it with strong females. Ilko’s motherline (Hidi Huhnegrab) was out of Fanto v Hershel who was not only an excellent working dog( I have 90 minutes video on Fanto, who also was one of the great gaiters the breed has known) but he was especially known for producing very strong females. I trained with a Fanto daughter who was in Philadelphia Sch Club, ( Frigga) who had monster grips and nerve especially for female.
On the dam side Jetta was daughter of Franz who was son of Gorbi Bad-Boll, who had good Herding instincts. Franz was bred to daughter of Cello v Romerau, another SL dog know for high work ethic. I trained with Cello son from Delaware that was more than capable of being LE work, rather on small side but hit hard, civil, and good nerves. Donna who was Jetta’s dam was out of Bingo v Bockfield, Bingo was linebred 4,5-4 on Lasso di Val Sole. Old timers know of the extremely strong work ethic of Lasso AND he passed this on. Bingo was bred to Uran daughter to produce Donna.
There was a time when SL dogs could still work well, and if you knew the lines well even up to 2000, you could still get nice SL working dog if you had good genetics from Mutz/Quanto in key points of pedigree.
As for Anno, I raised him from 8 weeks until 2 years, when he went to NYSP. I have sent over five dogs to NYSP that I have raised from puppy and trained. Anno was very civil and good nerve but high defense. It was training with T-Floyd at 14 months that the light bulb went on for this dog as T really brought out the best in him. Anno was out of Reiko who was linebred 2,3-4 on Held v Ritterberg. Reko’s father Klockow Lex was a super hard dog, and certified corrections dog. Billie Tannewald was out of Quindt v Barutherland another Held son. When the Wall first came down, Mary Coppage imported Quindt and Quant v Barutherland...in a seminar with Dean Calderon, he informed me he was contracted by Mary to work with Quindt...he raved about hardness and fight drive in the dog. Cedra who was Anno’s Mother was out of Dark Gymor, as told to me by owner of Aritar Bastet, Dark was a very very strong dog that he really liked. Cedra’s motherline went through Marko ze Zlataku, Zvv3 , who was another very serious dog. 
Overall, I liked the genetic diversity of the breeding, but I wanted to bring in the structure that Angel had plus she had the nerves to support the strong things that came from Anno. Btw, a litter brother to Baron went to a Delaware State policeman who used him on the force, and when he passed on he came back to me and got another dog( about 6 years ago) so guess he was happy.
Oh well, I hate being this lengthy, but there was some understanding of both parents of Baron when I did the breeding. I’m sorry it was so backyard looking to some, but the breeding turned out pretty good,imo.


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## Sunsilver

> I’m sorry it was so backyard looking to some...


Now, how are we going to judge that without pictures of the dog, Cliff? :grin2: Do you have one to share? Or Carmen?

Being the owner of a female that's a mix of two very different lines, I'm curious...

Of course, mixing German working lines with show isn't at all the same as ASL/GSL. And as I found out later, the breeding of my dog wasn't planned, despite the breeder's claim to the contrary. :frown2:


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## Chip Blasiole

cliffson1 said:


> ...Also, unconventionally I place far more emphasis on genetics than I do on titles. This has been for past thirty years as many titles really don’t reflect enough of what I’m looking for, and good training doesn’t pass genetically to offspring. I understand that flys in face of conventional wisdom, but until I start producing crap dogs or sending people to crap breedings, I see no reason to change...


Do you believe that withing working line breeders, the majority are looking at where titles were obtained, points, etc., over trying to get a good grasp on potential breeding partners' genetics?


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## Steve Strom

cliffson1 said:


> GG, certainly it’s ok to ask my thinking, though I rather enjoy the skeptics who read my posts as unconventional and me not having a clue��.
> I’m going to do this publicly, though I no longer like to a analyze publicly.
> First, let me say I do/have done a LOT of research on all the key lines in this pedigree with either first hand knowledge of the lines or direct conversations with people who knew these dogs, or has seen them work or trained with them.
> Also, unconventionally I place far more emphasis on genetics than I do on titles. This has been for past thirty years as many titles really don’t reflect enough of what I’m looking for, and good training doesn’t pass genetically to offspring. I understand that flys in face of conventional wisdom, but until I start producing crap dogs or sending people to crap breedings, I see no reason to change.


I'm generally skeptical, and when it comes to dogs, I always want to see for myself. I personally don't read anything your saying as unconventional, more like I don't quite understand why you think what your saying is. Pedigrees and genetics, set aside the people that obviously just buy a couple of dogs to breed. Every pedigree will be full of dogs that people thought would be a good match. They're all going to be full of personal opinions, likes, and to some point, past success. I don't know who doesn't look at all that, talk to other breeders, judges, helpers, contacts in Germany. The whole package, whatever they have access to. 

I also don't believe everyone else is only looking at titles. IPO is very public, anyone can go out and see the dogs trial. If you know anything at all about dogs you can see the differences. Everyone I know looks at the dog, not just the titles, but the fact that they were titled is easy verification that they weren't just laying around and someone is going to be able to pass on some knowledge of the dog. 

I will admit that as soon as I see a name like Jetta of Plain View, I'm done looking. At that point, for me it comes down to depending purely on the word of the breeder and if you want to put your trust in them. That's not an insult. I don't automatically agree that police dogs are the pinnacle of dog breeding either. There's good, great, and nothing to brag about there just like everything else.


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## carmspack

Sunsilver said:


> Now, how are we going to judge that without pictures of the dog, Cliff? :grin2: Do you have one to share? Or Carmen?
> 
> Being the owner of a female that's a mix of two very different lines, I'm curious...
> 
> Of course, mixing German working lines with show isn't at all the same as ASL/GSL. And as I found out later, the breeding of my dog wasn't planned, despite the breeder's claim to the contrary. :frown2:



yes - I do have pictures of Baron -- several 
good looking , compact , efficient little dog

there are not big podium dogs , "popular" sport lines -- lines put in there to grab attention and easy market , which is how many dogs are assembled on paper nowadays without understanding of what the dogs bring to the table

what Cliff has , and as he said there are some people who have not changed their ways, is
a dog that is SOLID --- 

the pedigree is quiet -- but if you know your dogs , as Cliff did , you would see and understand that there is a strategy --- a long-term plan .

beautifully laid out -- if you knew your dogs..


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## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> yes - I do have pictures of Baron -- several
> good looking , compact , efficient little dog
> 
> there are not big podium dogs , "popular" sport lines -- lines put in there to grab attention and easy market , which is how many dogs are assembled on paper nowadays without understanding of what the dogs bring to the table
> 
> what Cliff has , and as he said there are some people who have not changed their ways, is
> a dog that is SOLID ---
> 
> the pedigree is quiet -- but if you know your dogs , as Cliff did , you would see and understand that there is a strategy --- a long-term plan .
> 
> beautifully laid out -- if you knew your dogs..


Combined with what Cliff said, I'd still say show me. Sorry.


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## JakodaCD OA

I feel old seeing all these familiar 'old' named dogs All dogs that I've had running thru mine, some passed, two here,,lasso, bodo, klockow, and now Reiko,,I have a Reiko granddaughter who's tough as nails and at 10 yrs of age, shows no signs of slowing down , and a Reiko great grandson who's still maturing..Thanks for interesting thread, and reminder of dogs passed


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## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> Do you believe that withing working line breeders, the majority are looking at where titles were obtained, points, etc., over trying to get a good grasp on potential breeding partners' genetics?


Chip, among breeders there are good, bad , and mediocre just like everything else. I never say every, all, totally to anything...there are exceptions and variances to everything. To me people who deal in absolutes in their opinion or approach is usually a red flag about that opinion. I don’t believe in lines,( not much in titles) as I have said time and again, but I understand people’s preface for them. I think there are good breeders in different camps( titles, bloodlines, new, old,) and bad breeders in those same camps. I think smart breeders use a little of all that is available, but most importantly they have a lot of experience in breed and a lot of communication within breed. But then who you are training with and who you are communicating with can be different levels also??? 
I don’t expect people to do things like me, and I don’t or didn’t breed commercially in the aspect of marketing or websites or those things. Those that see the value in my thinking seek me out, those that don’t, I understand and it’s ok. At the end of day, want we have bred and the proximity of these dogs to the breed as it is written; is really all that matters and everything else is noise.


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## cliffson1

Steve Strom said:


> I'm generally skeptical, and when it comes to dogs, I always want to see for myself. I personally don't read anything your saying as unconventional, more like I don't quite understand why you think what your saying is. Pedigrees and genetics, set aside the people that obviously just buy a couple of dogs to breed. Every pedigree will be full of dogs that people thought would be a good match. They're all going to be full of personal opinions, likes, and to some point, past success. I don't know who doesn't look at all that, talk to other breeders, judges, helpers, contacts in Germany. The whole package, whatever they have access to.
> 
> I also don't believe everyone else is only looking at titles. IPO is very public, anyone can go out and see the dogs trial. If you know anything at all about dogs you can see the differences. Everyone I know looks at the dog, not just the titles, but the fact that they were titled is easy verification that they weren't just laying around and someone is going to be able to pass on some knowledge of the dog.
> 
> I will admit that as soon as I see a name like Jetta of Plain View, I'm done looking. At that point, for me it comes down to depending purely on the word of the breeder and if you want to put your trust in them. That's not an insult. I don't automatically agree that police dogs are the pinnacle of dog breeding either. There's good, great, and nothing to brag about there just like everything else.


I understand Steve, personally my Confidence in the breeder or the dogs the breeder has is very important to me.
Unfortunately, though I agree that talking to other judges, breeders, helpers contacts over seas, ( the whole package) is used by many, a lot of breeders don’t do these things, many breeders go to trials, or go look at dog and can’t differentiate what they are looking at is training or genetics....So I have learned to rely on genetics, doesn’t mean it’s the end all, or is even good for some people....but I like the results and a couple other people who seek my opinion or have my dogs or dogs I help them acquire.
I have never ever said that LE dogs were the epitome of the breed or that sport dogs can’t be good dogs, or all old time dogs were great, or anything like that....I just point out what I have seen in the breed over the years, and usually if folks are in certain camps or like certain lines they turn me off as to what I say .....I understand. I am not a cheerleader for lines, titles, or approaches, so I try to give the good and bad of these things AS I see it, and count on folks determine when they see things in person if what I say is something that resonates....maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. But I don’t have blind faith in anything, nor do I categorically dismiss anything unless I understand it...but that’s me.


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## cliffson1

Steve Strom said:


> Combined with what Cliff said, I'd still say show me. Sorry.


Steve, I understand, that’s why when I bred I didn’t go commercial, I’m really not interested in convincing the show me people, it doesn’t change my dogs for good or bad....and I don’t mean that as a wise guy comment. For the show me people, I say use the means you are most comfortable with, it doesn’t affect my dogs or what they are one way or the other.


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## cliffson1

JakodaCD OA said:


> I feel old seeing all these familiar 'old' named dogs All dogs that I've had running thru mine, some passed, two here,,lasso, bodo, klockow, and now Reiko,,I have a Reiko granddaughter who's tough as nails and at 10 yrs of age, shows no signs of slowing down , and a Reiko great grandson who's still maturing..Thanks for interesting thread, and reminder of dogs passed


Maybe Reiko was fiction.....just kidding...lol, I know what you mean.


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## Jack's Dad

Steve. How do you evaluate breeders, pairings, or even an individual dog that you find acceptable?
I knw what Cliff looks for and some information that you don't care for but not sure what you do look for.


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## Steve Strom

Jack's Dad said:


> Steve. How do you evaluate breeders, pairings, or even an individual dog that you find acceptable?
> I knw what Cliff looks for and some information that you don't care for but not sure what you do look for.


I'm no authority on anything Jack's Dad. I like a good dog, probably no different then you. I like a confident, basically social dog, but if I get a dog for something specific, I want one that naturally has it in them to do what I want to do. I want two good dogs paired up that fit that by a breeder I trust to know what they're actually pairing. Nothing too complicated.


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## Jack's Dad

Got it. Thanks


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## john55

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> I agree with Lee, most breeders that advertise mixing lines are using it as a marketing technique.
> 
> There is no reason a working line can't be a great companion/family dog. You don't need to mix show lines in for that. You just need the right breeder and the right dog. I have 2 working line dogs here, they are both great family dogs and wonderful companions.
> 
> Alternatively, from the right breeder, a show line dog should plenty of drive to work.
> 
> I prefer working lines, but if you find the correct breeder of any line GSD, they should be able to match you with the right dog for you.


I'm new to GSD's. I started my puppy search 2-3 weeks ago looking for a working line dog because of their trainability, intelligence, and potential to be trained and excel in Schutzhund work. I just assumed that a correctly bred working line dog would by breed definition be a good companion/family dog. 

I'm starting to wonder if a "companion/family dog" is hit and miss based on the breeders goals in their program. There seems to be a lot of emphasis and selective pairing on dogs ability to work. This is great, but I haven't run across any breeders who demonstrate through breeding selection an emphasis on great family dogs. Perhaps I'm just too new to the working line world to recognize what I'm looking for. I'd like a working line dog that is very good at both. Any help would be appreciated.


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## mnm

A "good" working line dog should be stable and have solid temperament, and can be a good family dog as well. I think the key is to balance as best you can between breeding partners so you are not going completely over the top in drive, getting weak nerves, or too much aggression. One really has to look at the whole picture, not just part of it when looking at dogs/puppies.


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## Shamhat de Leon

john55 said:


> ...I haven't run across any breeders who demonstrate through breeding selection an emphasis on great family dogs.


I worry about this too. It seems that many breeders' "pet" puppies are their failures—the ones that don't demonstrate the characteristics they are actually breeding for. I am hoping to get my first dog since a terrible experience in the late '80's with an American show line, due to temperament problems. 

Recently a breeder told me how she selects a puppy for a pet home: "...came out cow hocked or front is too narrow, ear set isnt where they want it etc... so I sell that puppy to a pet home, that person still gets the good genetics of all of my other puppies to be a stable sound puppy." There's just an assumption that all dogs inherently make good pets, rather than intentional selection for the traits that would make a good family dog.

I had first looked into working lines from a naive, romantic von Stephanitz idea that those breeders would be more concerned about temperament. However, I have seen that IPO has become a competitive sport which requires "high drive" dogs. Some breeders believe "there's no such thing as too much drive, just not enough handler." Puppies are available to "working families only" because the breeder worries that they might come back due to behavior.

I was also considering a working line/show line cross like the original poster. The comments made last month about it just being a marketing ploy have given me a lot to think about.

I would like to add, about the guide dog issue: I lived in Manhattan for awhile and often saw guide dogs being trained or new owners being taught how to work with them. I had a conversation with one of the trainers about German Shepherds, and he said that their natural gait was often too fast for most elderly clients. Labradors are literally "more their speed."


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