# Help School Me About Working Lines (moved to bloodlines and pedigrees)



## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

I know this is too broad a topic to be thoroughly covered in a single thread, but I'm hoping some of the more knowledgeable breeders can at least give me a quick overview. You sometimes see discussions where a breeder will make comments about really liking this line or not liking that one. And there are a couple of well known stud dogs that even I've heard of - e.g Fero.

But I've never seen any real discussions of what are the major breeding lines - or how they are different. No one ever seems to say why they like x line, but not y line? So what qualities does Fero, or some other well known producer impart that makes there progeny so desireable? Having some knowledge of the breeding lines being used would be helpful in selecting a breeder. This is particularly tue since there seems to be a fairly limited range of adjectives all breeders use to describe temperments. When was the last time you saw a breeder who didn't breed "stable", "clear headed " and "solid" dogs?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

good discussion here
https://www.facebook.com/groups/100827050053129/


----------



## Prima (Jan 19, 2014)

I am not a breeder. However, I think for the more conscientious breeders, using lines from progenitors that tended to throw certain qualities- are what they seek in molding the next generation.

For top tier sport dogs, it is as if you cannot get away from certain names not too far back in the pedigree. Is this blind luck? For lesser known working dogs, there are also qualities that tend to surface using particular lines, reliably.

I think perhaps breeders don't speak of this in any great detail because it is the art of what they do- like a working chef giving out the intricate details of his most beloved dish would be unlikely. I also think of breeding much like the artistry and science of winemaking, and we know not all wines are to everyone's tastes.

The interesting thing for enthusiasts of the German shepherd dog is that we have a solid history of documented quantitative and qualitative information on our beloved dogs to turn to.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> When was the last time you saw a breeder who didn't breed "stable", "clear headed " and "solid" dogs?


Frankly, one sees it all the time. I've never seen a breeder claim to be breeding unhealthy, wonky, feeble minded dogs. Unfortunately, what breeders _claim_ or _admit_ & what they _actually produce_ can be miles apart.

In many of the breeder discussion threads you'll see experienced, knowledgeable breeders expounding on what they seek to get or avoid from particular dogs & lines, ie so&so is known to improve hips...or one would expect to see good aggression with lower threshholds in such&such.

I don't breed & don't plan to, so while I find that info interesting, what is more important to me is what qualities a breeder seeks to produce or avoid. Personally, I'd never use a breeder that bred an unapproachable dog. Nor do I want one that's enamored of high reactivity, lower threshholds or over the top suspicion. Breeders who value judgment, confidence, reliability, a rapport with children & biddability resonate with me.


----------



## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Ruby Tuesday, that's what I meant to say - every website I've visited, seems to make similar CLAIMS: all their breeding stock are clear headed and stable and produce wonder pups that can do it all. Sometimes you have to really read between the lines of their website (or know about the breeding lines they are using) to understand what drives and qualities they are trying to emphasize. I know in a perfect world you'd visit each breeder, observe his breeding stock, check out a few puppies, and speak to other people who own his dogs, but sometimes that's not practical.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The problem is that sometimes too much weight is put onto how big a factor the pedigree is. Truth be told, 99% of breeders have never seen many of the "big boys" work and have just heard/learned that this dog brings this or that dog brings that. If you've got Fero, 6 generations back, that means he's one of 126 dogs that had some genetic affect on that dog...what are the chanaces that the only reason that dog is X is because of that one dog?

Anytime you hear that kind of advice. Dog X brings Z. Dog Y brings W. It's a best guess. It has probably shown up some, and has a decent correlation, but its not 100% fact or guarantee. I think unless you're looking for one particular trait, no one can really cover everything that's possible because different dogs are in the pedigree. I think that as someone that is a novice in reading pedigrees, and possibly a novice in dog sport or dog work, the best we can do is meet the breeder and trust that they know what they're doing. Hopefully the breeder is doing what you want to do with your dogs and therefore you can see that the traits you're looking for are coming through in their lines.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Often it seems that pedigrees have a 'backwards' usefulness, ie a dog exhibits reactivity & fear aggression & people perusing the pedigree state that's probably coming from...Naturally, backwards usefulness is inheritantly limited.

In Irish Wolfhounds much of the dog aggression seen in the breed is 'credited' to a particular sire who was used extensively b/c he was an eyeful & had very nice movement. Even back when it was happening many old timers felt it was a mistake to overlook his aggression issues & breed to him so heavily.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

John, one of the big things people need to know is exactly what they want & why. Too many people allow themselves to be spoonfed someone else's version of what they're looking for without really grasping what that even is. People with families, especially those with children, need to be uber careful to seek what will work best for their circumstances.

Martemchik, I agree. That's an excellent post. Thought provoking & well stated.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

John, I know a lot of people who have gotten super dogs by trusting the judgement of some of the pedigree/training people, far more successful approach than a novice going to a breeder and assessing what they don't know.


----------



## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Wow, great comments from everyone, thanks. To give you a little more info. about my background, I've owned dogs all my life and 3 GSD. One when I was a child and two as an adult. 

My last dog passed away a couple of months ago at age 12 and was a fantastic dog with a really interesting mix of drives - but who also had some issues.

As far as my experience as a trainer - guess I know enough to realize how little I know. I trained in Schutzhund for about a year and a half with my last GSD and got a BH. We were working toward a Schutzhund 1 when my club kind of imploded and I became disillusioned with some of the political infighting and personality clashes that developed between some of our members. But I do think I learned a lot from our training director and some of our members, who were very experienced and knowledgeable about dogs in general and schutzhund in particular. Our club also had a number of K9 officers, so I got to see a wide variety of dogs with varying abilities and temperments.

As a result I do have a pretty clear idea of what I'm looking for in my next dog and think I will be able to articulate it pretty clearly to a breeder.

I also know what I want to do with the dog - no schutzhund this time, but a lot of obedience and possible SAR.

My concern is that even hobby breeders want to find good homes for their dogs and are proud of their breedings. I'm concerned about going to two different breeders, whose dogs possess very different qualities and being told by both breeders that of course my dogs would work for you.

At the same time, I recognize that there has to be some level of trust between me and the breeder, particularly since even within a specific litter the pups are likely to possess a wide range of temperments and to some extent I will rely on the breeder to match me up with the best puppy.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

John, I would pm Cliff above, tell him what your looking for and I'm sure he could recommend a breeder..Cliff is my "go to" person when I'm looking for pedigree information


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Talking to a breeder is good, but make sure they prove that their dogs are capable of doing what they claim. So working titles or being an actual working dog if you are interested in SAR. As far as SAR goes I know there are dogs out there known for their hunt drive and producing high hunt drive dogs.

All breeders believe in their dogs. But it's one thing to say, my dog can do schutzhund but I just don't do it, and another thing to actually do it and show that the dog is capable. 

If you PM the possible pedigree to some of the pedigree experts, they'll be able to back up the breeder's claims or let you know something more about the dogs in the pedigree. But always remember that just because a dog in the pedigree was known for something, doesn't mean they passed it on to their offspring or the particular offspring used in the next generation.

I think the best thing you can do is look for a breeder that is breeding the dogs for themselves in order to succeed in the venue you're looking at. That kind of tells you that they are aiming for success with the dogs and believe that what they're doing is right because they want a dog that can do the work. Of course a history of success in that venue is also very important, but a breeder that holds back dogs in order to work them in that venue says that they stand behind their dogs working ability.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think you need to avoid the thought that seeing a certain dog in the pedigree means you're going to get a certain trait out of your pup. There are hundreds of dogs that produce high prey, hundreds that produce high hunt, and hundreds that produce all the other things that people look for in a dog. Canine DNA is so malleable that I find it very hard to believe dogs from the 6th generation or farther back have really had that much of an affect on the pup in question. I think they've had an affect on the 4th and 5th generation, but after that, it's more about the breeding decision in regards to those dogs and what they bring to the table to produce a solid next generation and so on.

More focus needs to be on the 2nd or 3rd generation, which in today's world can be pretty difficult to get information on because we are so segregated and it's not like you're going to find dozens of people that have seen dog X train and trial. There aren't too many dogs that are currently being bred that are probably going to be in the same group as the feros of our breed. The world is way larger today and the breed has become much more regionalized.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sires become popular because they either produce a BIG winner or three - or are known to consistently pass on some characteristic....this is called prepotency. Looking at pedigrees, there are dogs consistently used who had some characteristic and have shown to be prepotent in passing that on. For lack of a descriptive label, I am going to call him the <point dog> as future generations will point back to him....There are often more than one <point dog> in any given pedigree - usually there are 2 or even 3. That is when you start thinking about "nicks".....I come from an equine background in pedigree studies, and use the same terminology and analytical reasoning.

Like in horses, once there is a large number of progeny, those progeny get bred, thus carrying down the genetics...this is when you see prepotancy come into play...when it is coming down 2 and 3 generations from the <point dog>. When this <point dog> end up widespread, he ends up in the pedigree 4, 6 , 8 maybe 10 times in the 6th through 10th generations....thus you have a VERY good chance of picking up genetic characteristics that are attributed to the <point dog>. New <point dogs> crop up...but I look behind them for nicks that made them become what they are.

Lee


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and LEE above is a another good one to speak to about a referral! 

I think getting a referral from a breeder who knows their stuff as the two I"ve listed do, is a big help in finding what your looking for..Or can I say I would have no problem getting a dog from either Cliff or lee


----------



## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Once again thank you everyone - such good comments. I will definitely follow up with PM's to the two individual members if that's ok with them.

Also, Wolfstraum articulated better than I did where I'm coming from. There seem to be certain dogs and certain lines that supposedly impart certain characteristics to their progeny. I would assume those characteristics can be further enhanced by line breeding (I think that is the correct term) or if a certain "point dog" shows up multiple times in a pedigree. Hopefully, this will give me some idea (independent of the breeder) what qualities will predominate in a particular litter. It also may give me a better idea of the breeder's goals and what qualities he is trying to produce in his dogs. 

So if Fero and his progeny repeatedly show up in a pedigree, and Fero is known to produce a certain quality, presumably that quality is important to the breeder, and will be expressed in his dogs.

I think this information would be helpful to me in differentiating between different breeders of working dogs because I have a pretty good idea of the qualities I'm looking for. For example, I don't plan on resuming Schutzhund training, nor am I particularly concerned about a dog's ability to stand up to a forceful helper or to protect me from a dangerous intruder. Knowing this I don't necessarily think I need a dog with strong defensive drives.

Similarly, I have seen dogs who are extremely dominant and who require owners willing and able to constantly keep their thumb on the dog to keep this dominance in check. That dog would probably not be a good match for me and would do better with a different owner.

On the other hand, my prior dog had a ton of prey drive and a very big desire to please me. This made training sessions a joy. We both LOVED doing obedience training together and I was able to get great results while keeping it a game. I would love to duplicate this in my next dog.

The one bad thing about my dog is that he had low defensive thresholds and was a little nervy. This is something I would love to change in my next dog, so I would definitely want a breeder that emphasized stability and a rock solid temperment.

Finally, although I'm trying to be pretty specific, since I think it is ultimately helpful to have an idea of what your looking for, I realize that buying a puppy is not like buying a car. You can't simply choose a particular model and then specify exactly the color, trim and options you want. Particularly with puppies, you might not understand exactly what you've got for 1 or 2 years. But then, that's part of the fun.


----------



## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

John C. said:


> ...
> So if Fero and his progeny repeatedly show up in a pedigree, and Fero is known to produce a certain quality, presumably that quality is important to the breeder, and will be expressed in his dogs.
> ...


But can anyone predict how much of the Fero's quality is present in a given litter a few generations down the line? ... or in the given puppy from that litter?


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

alexg said:


> But can anyone predict how much of the Fero's quality is present in a given litter a few generations down the line? ... or in the given puppy from that litter?


IMO - it depends on what Fero dogs are in the litter and how many of them!!! I am careful through what dogs he comes, and really try to avoid alot of Fero....or really alot of any <point dog> ....many people will tell me about their dog/litter and say - in a proud tone - that they are linebred....but when you ask why this is important, what the linebreeding is going to hopefully bring to the dog/litter - they draw a blank!

Lee


----------

