# Ontario Breeder Questions & Finding Older Dogs!



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Hi All,

I am currently in the process of searching for a GSD to come home during the November to February time frame. I am looking both at puppies and older dogs, and am wondering if I can ask some questions to help me further the process.

Plans for the dog:
This dog is going to be a companion animal at home. Though it is coming home to the life of a pet, temperament and sound breeding are important to me as I live at home 4 months of the year with young siblings (5 and 9), and don't want to bring home a puppy with a lot of issues (nervous, reactive, etc). I understand that even dogs from the best lines will require a lot of socialization and exercise to grow into great dogs, but I want to start with a good foundation. That said, I am more than willing to go through classes and private trainers should my puppy develop issues. 

Current List:
I've spoken to Committed to Canines and like their dogs. I've also looked Wild Wind GSD. I have looked mostly at kennels that have worked their dogs extensively as I understand that this provides a good test for the temperament of the parents. Since I have no specific purpose for the dog beyond companionship, I am also open to show-line breeders that work their dogs. 

Question:
1) Does anyone own a dog from either of the kennels I mentioned? If so, do you have any feedback about the breeder or the dogs?

2) Are there other breeders that you might suggest? I spend time in both Toronto and Kingston, and would prefer breeders in the area. 

3) A breeder I spoke to mentioned that older dogs start about $5000. Is this a reasonable price to expect if I wanted a 8 month old or older dog? It sounds a bit high to me, but the last time my family brought home an 1 year old GSD was 12 years ago, and he went for ~$2000 with some training. I could be dating myself, but any thoughts on older dogs through breeders would be extremely helpful!

4) I do not qualify for GSD rescues in the GTA area as I have a sibling younger than 8. Other than rescues, what are some other routes I can go to find older puppies? A breeder I spoke to mentioned that she's had 2 puppies rehomed in the last 12 years, and that it was highly unlikely to get an older dog from her unless I reserved a puppy and paid a premium. I understand the reasoning behind the price, and am willing to pay it. However, I'd be open to suggestions and other routes. 

Thank you all for your time! I'm looking forward to joining the wonderful world of GSDs! :wub:


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have seen dogs from Committed to Canine and I like their dogs-I don't know the other breeder


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

holland said:


> I have seen dogs from Committed to Canine and I like their dogs-I don't know the other breeder


Thank you so much! I like their dogs too. :wub:


----------



## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

The Ontario Regionals are being held this weekend in Orangeville, which isn't too far from Toronto. If you can go, it's a great opportunity to see both working and show lines, meet GSD people and talk to breeders.

Home - 2011 Ontario Regional Championship & Sieger Show


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

duenorth said:


> The Ontario Regionals are being held this weekend in Orangeville, which isn't too far from Toronto. If you can go, it's a great opportunity to see both working and show lines, meet GSD people and talk to breeders.
> 
> Home - 2011 Ontario Regional Championship & Sieger Show


Thank you for information! I'll see if someone is willing to drive me. I would love to go and meet some GSDs and their people.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am in Ontario -- Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs . $5,000 for an 8 month old is a lot .

You can PM me regarding litters due shortly , one will be sired by a retired narc dog bred to a german import female who is his replacement , taken out for maternity.
Wild Wind is unknown to me.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I am in Ontario -- Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs . $5,000 for an 8 month old is a lot .
> 
> You can PM me regarding litters due shortly , one will be sired by a retired narc dog bred to a german import female who is his replacement , taken out for maternity.
> Wild Wind is unknown to me.
> ...


Hi Carmen,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I have PM-ed you already.

in terms of 6-8 month puppies, where do you think would be a good place to find them and what would be a reasonable price if I wanted a pedigreed dog? I am insisting on the pedigree just because I don't have enough experience with GSDs to trust myself to evaluate shelter and kijiji dogs, and my family situation does not qualify for Toronto area shelters. If you have information on this, I would greatly appreciate it.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stark comes from Wild Winds German Shepherds in Arthur, ON.

Kathy (the breeder) is an amazing lady and I have nothing but good things to say about her and her family. I have regular communication with Kathy either via facebook, email or phone and I do try to pop in to her place every once in awhile (especially when she has puppies for me to play, I mean, help socialize  ). I consider her a friend and think very highly of her.

Her male, Shep (who is stunning) is an amazing dog. He comes from the lines that I like and is really what I prefer in a working dog. Intense ball and food drive, high thresholds, stable nerves, aloof but friendly and just a very stable, balanced dog. Really, he is what I want in a GSD. He is *the* German Shepherd in my mind.

He is currently being trianed and titled in rally/obedience and displayed (if I remember correctly - you will have to verify with Kathy) intensness on the sheep. Every trial he has entered he has managed to get his title or at least the fact that he didn't get the title was a handler error (ask Kathy, she will laughingly admitt it was her fault...lol).

Her females are very stable in temperament, nice nerves and good working drives. She has mostly showlines so from what I see is what I would expect from those particular lines. 

She has one Czech female who I am in love with named Lexi. She is a spitfire and if Kathy would let me, I'd steal her in a second. She is just awesome and has a lot of the Pohranicni Straze qualities that I personally really like. 

I talk to many of her puppy buyers on a regular basis and everyone is extremely happy with their dogs. I even had the opportunity to babysit one of the Lexi/Shep puppies and she was just awesome.

Stark is reactive but I can honestly say that I have talked to many other puppy buyers (from his litter and others) and Stark is the only one who is showing any behavioural issues at all. I am not sure why and I am very open about his issues and if you would like to know more, please ask. I think his issues are a combination of genetics, stimulation and maturing.

If I could afford another dog right now, I would be going back for a puppy from the repeat Lexi/Shep litter. 

She has a few younger dogs right now who are not yet breeding but she has high hopes that they will fit the critera she is looking for. I believe she is staying with the showlines more now.

I definitely trust Kathy and would recommend you contact her and go out and meet her dogs. 

If you are looking for a Schh prospect, then I would steer you in a different direction as much as I love Kathy and her dogs, but if you are looking for an active pet, possibly obedience and/or agility then I say give her a call.

She does the appropriate health testing, evaluates her dogs, knows their pedigrees and is super helpful and stands behind what she breeds. 

If you would like you can tell her I sent you her way or PM me and we can chat more.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Stark comes from Wild Winds German Shepherds in Arthur, ON.
> 
> Kathy (the breeder) is an amazing lady and I have nothing but good things to say about her and her family. I have regular communication with Kathy either via facebook, email or phone and I do try to pop in to her place every once in awhile (especially when she has puppies for me to play, I mean, help socialize  ). I consider her a friend and think very highly of her.
> 
> ...


Hi Elisabeth,

Thank you for the thorough response. I actually started looking at Wild Winds because Stark was so handsome. I initially rejected the idea of having a completely black GSD as a sire since I am partial to the classic tan and black saddle look of GSDs, but Shep's puppies have really grown on me.

I will definitely love to chat more with you, and will be sending you a PM once I get home from work and have some time to formulate my thoughts.

On another note, would you know of anyone I can speak to about finding older puppies? 

Thanks!


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Hi Guys,

Please keep suggestions coming. 
I went to Woofstock this weekend and held a GSD puppy. Though the mother had fading pigment, and the situation reeked of BYB, the puppy was the softest and sweetest thing in the world.

As I held it, it's little padded paws were on my hand, and it made soft whiny noises and leaned its little warm body on me...:wub:

Can't wait till I can have one to call my own.


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

the carmspack dogs really seem great

it is slim pickings in canada for a well rounded gsd that can work in real life situations without having extremes


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

There are some very good breeders in Canada besides Carmspack


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

holland is right!!!lol...I got a very nice male from Frank and Jeane Novak.


----------



## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Not in Ontario but I would suggested that you contact Christina. I have met and know her personally and wouldn't hesitate to purchase a dog from her.

Wendelin Farm


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm always off topic -their cows and their horses look a like cracks me up-sorry think I have ADD


----------



## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> holland is right!!!lol...I got a very nice male from Frank and Jeane Novak.


I contacted Jeanne Novak not long after their F vom Dragonhaus litter and had just missed out because they retired their bitch at the time. They are located just outside Edmonton, Alberta.

I have also previously contacted Dan Juros (vom Haus Juros) in the Vancouver area as well since he occasionally has litters.

The trainer I was working with when we first brought Miya home has a bitch from Lance Collins (vom Bergblick) and has previously trained with Ralph Gilby (von der Eisspitzen) who owns dogsportgear.com before he moved out to the Vancouver area.

All of these are working line breeders so you would need to explain your situation and see if they can match a puppy to your needs. If they can't, a reputable breeder would guide you in a direction that is more appropriate.

@cliffson1 - Are you located in the US or Canada?


----------



## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

pets4life said:


> the carmspack dogs really seem great
> 
> it is slim pickings in canada for a well rounded gsd that can work in real life situations without having extremes


It is necessary to keep an open mind about going further than just 500mi to find a good puppy or dog sometimes in Canada. I branched out and called some breeders in the US as well.


----------



## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

You can get pet dogs out of working lines.
Not every pup will have super high drives. All on the breeding.


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I am also in Ontario and my dogs came from Hellwigg shepherds, seh doesnèt always have soem available but as with many long time breeders, they know of others with dogs available, I will add her kennel info and she might be able to help. She is outside Trenton, I believe and certainly has bred for yrs. Also as I own 2 of her breeding I can guarantee temperment is solid, I would trust my dogs anywhere and with anyone. Give her a call or email and I am sure seh can help direct you to some area breeders that won t cost you so much for what you want. Good luck, and if you want to see my dogs i am on facebook, Trudy Calvert, and if you message me and tell me who you are then Ièll add you. My daughter also has a dog from Wendy so on my facebook are 3 examples working and playing and just being silly

home


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

If you want to branch out to the US, Wildhaus currently has an older puppy that is marked more as a "active companion" than SchH prospect. You might want to see if she might be a good fit for you....although the timing is earlier than what you want.....but many breeders might have dogs like this for sale at any given time.
(German Shepherds For Sale in Michigan, by Wildhaus Kennels )


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Tintallie, I live in New Jersey. I got Fero vom Dragonhaus from the F litter. I put an Family Obedience title on him, Protection Alert title, and Protection One title (High in Trial,93OB,93.5P)
He was a very nice dog with V conformation...he is currently with a NJ Sheriff's dept.; though I retained breeding rights. He is going through explosive school and then patrol school.


----------



## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

Here is an example of something that would have snuck under the radar if it wasn't that I accidentally read a particular thread on the PBD (pedigreedatabase.com)

Yoschy vom Steintal is the Canadian Schutzhund champion in 2010 and owned by Gabi Hoffman who trains at the West Coast German shepherd Schutzhund Club (a Justin vom Pendel Bach son) and he recently sired a litter for this ad I found:

Puppies: Top WG Working Litter (id: 121408) - German Shepherd Dog

I don't know the breeder but this would be an example of who I would contact to learn more from. 

Keep on reading the forums and you will keep learning. This is how I learned to find more breeders to consider in the future.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Rather than reading forums-go to shows and clubs and meet dogs-you will find there are nice dogs in your area or you can branch out-you learn a lot more from actually seeing dogs


----------



## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

holland said:


> Rather than reading forums-go to shows and clubs and meet dogs-you will find there are nice dogs in your area or you can branch out-you learn a lot more from actually seeing dogs


Depending on the area, there is sometimes a geographic problem in Canada. If you have breeders and clubs near you, that would be the first choice.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Thank you everyone. I hadn't been checking this thread in the last while, and can't believe I missed all this valuable information.

Holland: I have looked at carmspack, but I am also looking and following up on everyone's suggestions. This will be my first dog, so I want to do a lot more reading and have more information before I go out and meet dogs at shows and clubs. At this point in my learning, I feel like I wouldn't be able to tell a "good" dog from a not so stellar one in person. So I want to keep reading and learning about what people think are good breeders and look at what they present on their website. I think if I spend more time familiarizing myself with the content that consistently shows up on recommended breeders' pages, then I can have a better understanding of how I should continue my search and my learning.

Tintallie: Thank you for the links. I will definitely get in touch and follow-up with you after I've heard.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

There is a geographic problem in the States too-there are some really small provinces in Canada-that have very good schutzhund clubs


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> Not in Ontario but I would suggested that you contact Christina. I have met and know her personally and wouldn't hesitate to purchase a dog from her.
> 
> Wendelin Farm


Thank you for the link. I will go read up more about their dogs as well.



cliffson1 said:


> holland is right!!!lol...I got a very nice male from Frank and Jeane Novak.


Thank you Cliff! I will take a look at them!



tintallie said:


> It is necessary to keep an open mind about going further than just 500mi to find a good puppy or dog sometimes in Canada. I branched out and called some breeders in the US as well.


I am willing to look in the US. Lee recommended me a German show line breeder in the states, and I would be open to further recommendations of US breeders.



trudy said:


> I am also in Ontario and my dogs came from Hellwigg shepherds, seh doesnèt always have soem available but as with many long time breeders, they know of others with dogs available, I will add her kennel info and she might be able to help. She is outside Trenton, I believe and certainly has bred for yrs. Also as I own 2 of her breeding I can guarantee temperment is solid, I would trust my dogs anywhere and with anyone. Give her a call or email and I am sure seh can help direct you to some area breeders that won t cost you so much for what you want. Good luck, and if you want to see my dogs i am on facebook, Trudy Calvert, and if you message me and tell me who you are then Ièll add you. My daughter also has a dog from Wendy so on my facebook are 3 examples working and playing and just being silly
> 
> home


Thank you! I got your PM as well and will take a look at them.



GSDElsa said:


> If you want to branch out to the US, Wildhaus currently has an older puppy that is marked more as a "active companion" than SchH prospect. You might want to see if she might be a good fit for you....although the timing is earlier than what you want.....but many breeders might have dogs like this for sale at any given time.
> (German Shepherds For Sale in Michigan, by Wildhaus Kennels )


Thanks again.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> If you want to branch out to the US, Wildhaus currently has an older puppy that is marked more as a "active companion" than SchH prospect. You might want to see if she might be a good fit for you....although the timing is earlier than what you want.....but many breeders might have dogs like this for sale at any given time.
> (German Shepherds For Sale in Michigan, by Wildhaus Kennels )


Jenga looks gorgeous. :wub:
But alas, the timing isn't right. 
Thank you for the link.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Everyone, thank you so much for taking the time to provide personal recommendations. When I initially wrote the post, I was just starting to research German Shepherds and had a very vague idea of what I wanted. I read through all of your kennel recommendations and many a breeder recommendation thread to find the commonalities of a great breeder, and the commonalities of a great dog.

After much thought about the kind of dog that I wanted, and the kind of activities I wanted to do with my dog, I've decided to go with a companion GSD from a showline kennel that puts working titles on their breeding prospects. I will still be looking at both younger dogs and puppies, whichever one has the most suitable temperament for my life style. 

I would love to continue hearing recommendations and your personal experience with your breeders. 

Again, thanks to everyone that provided me a recommendation. It has really made my learning and research experience a lot easier.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Good luck with your search for the perfect young adult/older puppy! While you'll miss puppy breath you won't miss the holy terror


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Good luck with your search for the perfect young adult/older puppy! While you'll miss puppy breath you won't miss the holy terror



I will save the puppy breath for a better time in my life, when I own my own house. :wub:


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

you are very wise to take an older dog for a first time and often breeders have ones returned that are still great dogs, people who have discovered they are ill, that the dog is too much for them at this time of life, that they don't have the dedication required or just some the breeder grew out and then decides isn't exactly what they were hoping for. Try to see lots of dogs and so go to all the places where you might see some, ask questions of owners of ones you see that you like and those you don't!!! Keep a record of both, if you see lots from a place you don't like but 1 or 2 you do, maybe run as odds are you might get the not preferred type, There are literally thousands of breeders, maybe hundreds good but too many not any good. 

Keep us informed and we do like pics, I have hundreds of pics on Facebook and love sharing my guys. Here is Ty, ( I hope it comes through)


Log In | Facebook


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)




----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

trudy said:


> you are very wise to take an older dog for a first time and often breeders have ones returned that are still great dogs, people who have discovered they are ill, that the dog is too much for them at this time of life, that they don't have the dedication required or just some the breeder grew out and then decides isn't exactly what they were hoping for. Try to see lots of dogs and so go to all the places where you might see some, ask questions of owners of ones you see that you like and those you don't!!! Keep a record of both, if you see lots from a place you don't like but 1 or 2 you do, maybe run as odds are you might get the not preferred type, There are literally thousands of breeders, maybe hundreds good but too many not any good.
> 
> Keep us informed and we do like pics, I have hundreds of pics on Facebook and love sharing my guys. Here is Ty, ( I hope it comes through)
> 
> ...


Hi Trudy,

Thanks for the advice. The link doesn't work.  Maybe you can PM me your name so I can search you up?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

marshies and I have emailed each other --- premium on specific black and tan looks , with only one or two litters per year , and they being sable or black sable / bi colour , solid black there will not be "that" black and tan any time soon.
I would recommend that marshies physically visit the kennel and maybe select a pup at a young adult age when the important colour pattern is set and evident.

I can recommend Ruth Yeulett in Kelowna British Columbia for very sensible , stable GSD suitable for home companion, hospital therapy , competitive obedience , schutzhund dogs that do the work , can score high yet be a pleasure to live with and SAR and related scenting specialities including narcotics, and human remains etc.
She does not have a computer -- can't convince her -- but anyone interested can contact me and I will give out her phone number. 

There are good working dog breeders in western Canada .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> marshies and I have emailed each other --- premium on specific black and tan looks , with only one or two litters per year , and they being sable or black sable / bi colour , solid black there will not be "that" black and tan any time soon.
> I would recommend that marshies physically visit the kennel and maybe select a pup at a young adult age when the important colour pattern is set and evident.
> 
> I can recommend Ruth Yeulett in Kelowna British Columbia for very sensible , stable GSD suitable for home companion, hospital therapy , competitive obedience , schutzhund dogs that do the work , can score high yet be a pleasure to live with and SAR and related scenting specialities including narcotics, and human remains etc.
> ...


Thank you Carmen for giving me more advice.

I visited the Raw and Vegan festival a couple weeks back, but thought it might be too bold to approach your table. :blush:

I am looking for a healthy and stable dog first and foremost, and with more research, I am less specific on the black and tan, but still like the typical "show-line" colors. I know these colors aren't unique to showlines, so it is less of an emphasis on my search. If the dog that suits my needs and my lifestyle comes from a WL breeder, I am more than fine with that as well. 

I am definitely going the young adult route. But it is more because of my inexperience as a first time dog-owner than color preference. I have a relatively general color preference, and I'm sure with the many many breeders out there, can be met.

Thanks again, Carmen, for taking the time to give me more information. I will PM you about Ruth's phone number.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Marshies , I wish you had come up to my table. I would have loved to talk to you. As great as the festival was -- it was not the place for me -- this young urban vegan crowd had a lot of animal rights and peta type people who argued with me that people should not own dogs , that they should be creatures with freedom and the right to make their own families --- huh? oh yeah. true.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Marshies , I wish you had come up to my table. I would have loved to talk to you. As great as the festival was -- it was not the place for me -- this young urban vegan crowd had a lot of animal rights and peta type people who argued with me that people should not own dogs , that they should be creatures with freedom and the right to make their own families --- huh? oh yeah. true.


If you're heading to any other events in the Toronto area this summer, please let me know. I will be bolder in approaching you next time.

In the mean time Carmen, I was wondering if I could ask you a bit about drives and what/how I should be saying when I approach breeders to make sure I am correctly communicating my needs. My current approach is to describe my lifestyle, my family members, and my goals of the dog(cuddle-bug with daily hour long exercise sessions, basic obedience, family member). 

I did a bit of reading on components of drives in a good Sch dog (which is not what I am looking to do), and wonder if I should describe it with these technical terms instead. 

Based on this article: The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament, I think I am looking for a dog that has hardness and high irritability threshold. The dog should have strong pack instincts, low to none social and reactive aggression.

Where I get confused is prey drive and active aggression. I want to be able to marker train my dog and have an all-round obedient and well-behaved dog. I might want to engage in dog sports, but I am still unsure. I don't know how to look at prey drive, because I don't want the dog to treat my younger siblings or my pet rabbit as a prey that gets chased down and played with. I know these 2 drives are crucial in Schutzhund, but how do these play into a family dog?

Thanks again!


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

hmmm I can see the pic of Ty in the second reply box, just thought I'd share my smiley boy's pic, my name for facebook is Trudy Calvert, send a message who you are and I'll add you. My girl, full sister is also pictured on facebook, I LOVE my dogs and will honestly say they are the best ever anywhere,


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

trudy said:


> hmmm I can see the pic of Ty in the second reply box, just thought I'd share my smiley boy's pic, my name for facebook is Trudy Calvert, send a message who you are and I'll add you. My girl, full sister is also pictured on facebook, I LOVE my dogs and will honestly say they are the best ever anywhere,


Thanks! I can see the second picture now. I posted before I saw the second post. Lovely dog!


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

That pic was taken as he left the field after herding, I just added some of his sister Gemma herding in May, there are several windows of pics, i added some then went back and added more, she is a beauty too


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

trudy said:


> That pic was taken as he left the field after herding, I just added some of his sister Gemma herding in May, there are several windows of pics, i added some then went back and added more, she is a beauty too


I've taken a look at your other threads. They are quite beautiful! I love how they are focused and working. Brains and beauty.


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

that is what I like too, beautiful dogs who look like they are supposed to, doing what they are supposed to, focused, driven yet easily controlled. Most people can't believe they are Can show lines, they are, there are breeders who breed for that!!!! Long time breeders who know what they should be and have kept away from trend breeding and breeding on popular studs with flash not substance. Gemma is a Ch now and her litter mate won his Maturity and will go to Nationals, He also has both majors in the US, and yeah he resembles my 2. At the show this past weekend ( we got our first rally title) we were asked by the ring steward if Ty and the breed winner were related as they were so similar, so yeah good dogs are winning.there are judges who recognise good dogs and they are finding some good dogs


----------

