# Police shot and killed 11lb doxie



## gbocrafty (Apr 2, 2009)

Earlier today someone posted about a chi that was tasered and shot by police. Unfortuately on tonight's news was this sad story.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31239049/

It just makes me sick that a gun happy cop can't handle an 11 lb dog any better than to kill it.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I don't see it that way. 11lbs or not, it's a dog named Killer charging him. Maybe it'll serve as a lesson to small dog people who don't train their dogs. Nobody would say boo about it if a Rottie, a GSD, Akita etc charged a police officer and was shot.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

I agree. Small dogs have teeth, too. Those teeth can be considered weapons.

If a very short person were coming at an officer with a weapon, they would be shot just the same as a tall person.

So why not a small dog yielding a weapon?


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## OllieGSD (Feb 21, 2007)

Cops carry pepper spray for a reason...


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

If I recall correctly, the Chihuahua in the previous incident was cornered in its own yard, and only bit the officer after he tried to capture it in a very reckless manner.

This dog aggressively charged the cop without provocation.

In this case, I side with the PD.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

I have personally bred dachshunds, we mainly stuck to the longhair because they tend to have a calmer attitude than that of the smooths. Smooths have a tendency to more scarce....But they can all be mean or aggressive as stated b4 in several posts if not properly trained right. I think the cop did the right thing, just because that iits a little dog don't mean it will leave a little bite!


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## rgrim84 (May 8, 2009)

Sucks...


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## srfd44-2 (May 20, 2004)

EVERY DOG needs to be trained. The big as well as the little. At the vet's office where I work we have had more attacks and bites come from little guys versus the big guys. Bad breeding also plays a role.


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## gbocrafty (Apr 2, 2009)

I guess I see it a different way. The dog only weighed 11 lbs-the Danville PD has been trained to handle dog attacks. They carry pepper spray. Just seems like over kill to me, epecially since he was returning to his car.

This is about the 4-5 incidents in the last 6 months-different PD's.

I know that if this dog had been on leash and or in his fenced yard he would still be alive.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

The officer was there to serve a warrant when he was CHARGED by a dog that was acting aggressively (and, according to the article, has a history of aggression). If an aggressive dog charges an officer who is on duty, the officer has ZERO responsibility to take a bite so he won't hurt the dog. It doesn't matter if the dog is five pounds, fifteen pounds, or fifty pounds. If the dog is charging aggressively, the officer has every right to shoot the dog.

People need to TRAIN and CONTAIN their animals, period. If the dog had been trained and supervised, this would not have happened. If the dog had been contained, this would not have happened. 

I can tell you that this won't happen on my property. My dogs will down-stay when someone comes to the door. They don't charge people barking and growling. If they did, the person they're charging has every right to shoot them, and I will be the first one to admit that it was my fault for not containing them and APOLOGIZE that it had come to that situation. 

Of course, I have big dogs. We all know the rules only apply to big dogs because they can do more damage.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

Why does size matter? And where is the point-break?

Is a 25 lb dog big enough to warrant a shot? How about 20?

It's black and white, just as it is with people. The size of the assailant does not matter.


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## gbocrafty (Apr 2, 2009)

Still think it was overkill. I have been a responsible pet owner all my life and currently own a redbone hound. The only think that gets her to barking is the scent of a racoon or opossum.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

can someone famaliar with the use of pepper spray explain why that would not have done the job.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

I don't think he should have killed a senior dog that little. I don't think he should have let it bite him, either. It could've had rabies, or anything. I think pepper spray would've worked just fine, even a taser. It didn't deserve to die, though.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

How much damage can a little 11 pound dog possibly do? Just stick your boot out and block the dog if it's charging. At the most, kick it if you really feel your life is in that much danger. It's 11 pounds... Come on. There's no excuse for taking this dogs life.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: OllieGSDCops carry pepper spray for a reason...


yes, a safe way to stop someone without the possibility of killing them...

people go to prison for being violent...dogs get quarantined and euthanized for being vicous


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lucy DogHow much damage can a little 11 pound dog possibly do? Just stick your boot out and block the dog if it's charging. At the most, kick it if you really feel your life is in that much danger. It's 11 pounds... Come on. There's no excuse for taking this dogs life.


well lets see...could couse you a few hundred or so bucks for stitches...could bite your kids in the face, that would be a good one...who cares, a dog is a dog, not human...im a huge dog lover but if i had a vicious dog comeing at me i would kill it, especially if it was threatening my kids...11lbs or not, its still a dog


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

Size matters because you can control an 11lb dog vs a 50 or 100lb dog. Yeah it might sting to get bit by a yapper, but should the dog die? I agree even little dogs should be trained but come on now. 11lbs? You dont think that police officer couldnt control the dog with some pepper spray?


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

We all know that this comes down to being the owner's fault. His/her dog should've been socialized, the cop wasn't even on their property, so it wasn't territorial. The dog should've been properly contained, not free to roam and potentially bite someone. If the policeman was right or wrong, it really doesn't matter. What it comes down to is an irresponsible owner. He probably knew his dog didn't like strangers, so why was it loose to begin with?? He was just asking for something like this to happen. Even if it hadn't been a cop, and he hadn't killed the dog, the dog would've bit someone else eventually and probably got destroyed for that!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Lucy DogHow much damage can a little 11 pound dog possibly do? Just stick your boot out and block the dog if it's charging. At the most, kick it if you really feel your life is in that much danger. It's 11 pounds... Come on. There's no excuse for taking this dogs life.
> ...


The dogs 11 pounds. How is an 11 pound dog going to do damage to your face. It's probably the size of a rabbit. You can block the thing with your foot. Use common sense here. How is this even a discussion. If the only weigh you can defend yourself against 11 pounds is with a gun than you have serious problems. I bet the gun weighed more than the dog.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

It's definitely the owner's fault, but you really can't compare this to a large dog. A large dog CAN KILL YOU. An aggressive large dog is a lethal force, an 11-pound dog is not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

An eleven pound doxie can kill a person if it has rabies. No one wants to get bitten by any dog. While I blame the owners 100% that their dog is dead. Police officers should maybe think, not everyone has a gun to shoot this thing with, what other options do I have?


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## MatsiRed (Dec 5, 2004)

_The dogs 11 pounds. How is an 11 pound dog going to do damage to your face. It's probably the size of a rabbit. You can block the thing with your foot. Use common sense here. How is this even a discussion. If the only weigh you can defend yourself against 11 pounds is with a gun than you have serious problems. I bet the gun weighed more than the dog._

I can barely wrap my head around this. Although I wasn't there and can't say for sure, I do have strong feelings about this one and my position is the same as above.

I could never imagine something like this happening in my area, at least not intentionally, by cops. From what I've read and been told, generally speaking, we feel and treat our pets differently from many other parts of the country. Indoors, important family members, big part of our lifestyle, responsible spaying and neutering, etc. Had this happened in my city, no doubt there'd be a public outcry of some sort. 

The whole thing seems barbaric to me. I honestly believe there must be an attitude issue wrapped up in this case somewhere, some sort of subtle permission that told these cops that if you can't subdue it, oh well, it's just a dog, SHOOT it. 

There were all kinds of common sense alternatives as already mentioned, and probably many more if I thought about it. They are taught how to apprehend 6 foot tall 200 pound men on meth, who can also bite btw and pass on very serious diseases, but can't restrain an 11 pound dog?! Come on.

I could be wrong, but had the cops been avid animal lovers themselves, the outcome may have been different. I doubt if pulling the trigger on a yappy snappy little wiener is going to keep anyone up at night for those involved.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This is just ridiculous. I have been charged by many dogs, large and small, and never felt the need to kill them in order to protect myself. This is a total abuse of power.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

The article said the dog showed aggression. Who here in this forum has had a GSD that NEVER showed aggression?
Dogs will show aggressive behavior for dozens of different reasons - they are dogs not humans after all, that is part of their natural behavior - and shooting one s/d be a last resort.
And yes, size of dog does matter. Cops carry beat sticks. I'm sure the officer could just as easily pulled out his stick from his belt instead of the gun. One swipe of a stick will easily ward off an 11 lb. pooch. Again, no justification for reaching for a gun so easily as a first response. Always use the most appropriate tool for the job. A gun s/d be the last option in the entire tool kit for almost all situations.
Officers wear shoes with thick soles, again a quick kick would easily discourage an 11 lb. pooch. I'm sure this wasn't a Stephen King Cujo type dog.
There are thousands of wonderful cops out there but also a few trigger happy ones.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSD4LIFE21Size matters because you can control an 11lb dog vs a 50 or 100lb dog.


I'm just playing devil's advocate here:

Where is the point break? At what weight are you allowed to use a gun? 50 lbs? 51 lbs? 55 lbs?

And how is the cop supposed to know the weight of the dog?

And does the size of the cop matter? What if the cop is a 95 lb woman? Should there be a chart/matrix for cops to find their current body weight and see at what weight of dog they are allowed to shoot?

This is why the cop is not being charged and what he did was legal: this type of thing has to be black and white. The whole thing was probably over in 3 seconds. Is he supposed to gauge the weight of the dog within the 1-2 seconds before it gets to him, then decide if its greater than or equal to his allowed shootable weight?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

It's always the same old argument. The mean old cop shot the poor defenseless dog. The cops wrong, heartless and abusing his power. Well folks, in nearly ever instance the cop was called because of a loose dog. Usually because it either has already bitten or tried to bite someone. None of the compassionate citizens that cared so much tried to corral the dog, the owners either can't or don't want to be found. So it's up to the cop. Yeah, he can get bitten, it's only an 11 or 15 or 30 or 50 pound dog. Geez doesn't he get paid to get punctures, bleed, be treated for infections. Funny, rarely does A/C get criticized for not being there. I guess it's ok, they only work from 7 to 3, ahh yes that's the answer. Well, I'm a cop, I'm a dog trainer for cops, I'm not a dog catcher. If a dog approaches me in an aggressive manner and it's safe to do so, that dog will be DRT. 

DFrost


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

i know the director of AC in an adjoining county (went to college with him). i discussed this with him yesterday. in 7 years that he has been in his position, they have never been unable to secure a dog outside of the dog bolting away. large dogs, small dogs, some very agressive, some not. he estimated over 350 dogs. NONE of them were dead in the process of catching them. he said some of the little agressive dogs are simply physically picked up while the AC officer is wearing puncure resistant gloves. 

of course, everything is a judgement call, but im a little concerned if an officer is judging the threat from an 11 lb dog to be the same as the threat from an 80 lb charging rotti. its just not the same.

if AC can secure that many dogs without gunfire, then certainly police can be more effectively trained to do so as well. its not rocket science. if AC is available, it would apparantly be preferable for them to come get the dog outside of a dog who is in the process of agressing toward a person(s). if AC can be called to pick up a shot dog after the fact (referring to another case, but also a tiny dog), then why couldnt they have been called in the fiirst place?

im still waiting for someone to explain why pepper spray would have been ineffective in this case or in the case of the little dog that was shot right on its own porch. ive used it twice in the last 5 years on a charging dog while i was jogging. sadly, one of them was a gsd. i could have grabbed that dog by the collar and drug it back to its front door in the state it was in after being sprayed.

the cops arent necessarily heartless, but IMO they are simply not adequately trained for these situations. (dont mean all cops, but these cops in these situations with these tiny dogs)


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

Great post, roxy84.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

As far as it goes against my grain, I am going to support the officer here with a scenario. 

I read that the officer was going to the house to arrest someone for warrants, not for a loose dog complaint. The neighbors in this case said the dog was great and everyone liked him in the neighborhood. 

So getting back to the cop, maybe he is thinking about the job he has been dispatched to do, picking up some guy. He is wondering if the guy is going to resist, or if someone else in the house is going to give him trouble. He is figuring out his game plan. All of hte sudden a dog comes out of nowhere charging him. 

A police officer needs training in first, keeping himself alive. He needs training in handling dangerous criminals. He needs training in handling old people, people with psychiatric problems, juveniles. He needs training in conflict management, domestic issues, child abuse. In some cases he does all of that for $25k, sometimes more, sometimes less. It wasn't that long ago when our town was paying $8/hour. 

I think owners of dogs need to keep their dogs contained. I do not think we should expect munincipalities to pay for officers to go into special training to manage dogs, what to use on dogs, what to do about dogs.


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## Strana1 (Feb 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: roxy84can someone famaliar with the use of pepper spray explain why that would not have done the job.


I am an instructor in OC. Oc does not work on everyone (or everything) with the same intensity. We have recently changed to Tasers because too many people can fight through the OC. As part of our OC training we are required to be sprayed then fight off a person that has pinned us to the ground, then handcuff a second suspect, then hold our eye open for 5 seconds to make sure there are no other suspects around. It does not incapacitate you. The reason for this is when you deploy OC you are almost always contaminated yourself and you need to be able to work through it. It will not stop a person or dog that wants to fight. 

Here are Police recruits undergoing OC (Pepper Spray) training. The spray being used is Sabre Red, a very potent level III OC/Pepper spray. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-X41ZfxVfYJg/oc_pepper_spray_training_with_sabre_red/

Police officers are not "required" to "take a hit (or bite)." This officer was going to arrest someone, he does not need to be injured by a dog and then have to deal with a suspect with that injury. For all he knew the dog could have been sent by the person he was trying to arrest as a distraction for either escape or so the suspect could injure or kill the officer. If that was the case and the officer was kicking the dog away and the suspect came up and shot the officer in the head and killed him would that have been ok because the dog was 11 pounds and he wasn't "allowed" to kill it?

This has nothing to do with a cop being trigger happy or an abuse of power. We are trained expect the worst and to deal with it. I am a police supervisor and under our policies shooting the dog that is charging you is allowed and I don't know any department where it wouldn't be.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

_McLean was returning to his vehicle he was surprised by the dog, which he said was growling and running through the yard directly at him. That's when he fired one shot at the dog._

if the officer was engaging a suspect in some way, i will concede a small dog COULD pose a problem depending on what type of engagement was taking place, but this officer was already returing to his car, not engaging a suspect, but leaving the home. no one will convince me that an 11 lb doxie poses a threat the same way a larger dog, which can take a man down, does. i respect what police officers have to do. this one had to make a judgement call. i still maintain that this officer in this case made a poor judgement call. 

....._it is within the department's policy to shoot a dog that is presenting a threat to an officer._

now, i get this. i jog every day and over the years have had lots of dogs come charging out at me. in no way have i ever felt threatened by a dog that small. i have felt very threatened by larger dogs that i knew could do serious damage by taking me down to the ground (these were the 2 instances where i successfully used pepper spray). so, i know enough to know that either kicking at a dog that small or yelling at it always does the job quite fine, and im wearing shorts and sneakers with no socks, not long pants and work shoes. 

you can bet law enforcement officials deal with little yappy 10 lb dogs all the time (yes, even growling charging ones). so do UPS drivers, the mailman, FedEx drivers, etc...its very rare you hear of an officer pulling a gun to subdue such a 10 lb threat which leads me to believe they made a judgement that they didnt need a gun for a 10 lb dog. i know law enforcement officials have to make quick judgement calls all the time, sometimes in life threatening situations. i am confident a vast majority of officers have made a different judgement in similar cases. otherwise we would read about a dog being shot by an officer every single day.

at the very least, its a huge PR hit for any department to use lethal force on such a tiny dog. pepper spray, tazer, kick the dog...but at least try something before drawing a gun (again, the point of the dog being so tiny is there are option one doesn't have with a charging 90 lb dog).

please dont misconstrue any of this as me not respecting the work police officers do for all of us. i respect very much what they do. they are vastly underpaid and often overworked. this is just my opinion on how this particular incident was handled, not an overall indictment of police officers.


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

Seriously people it was 11lbs!!! Pepper spary, don't shoot it!

The difference between a 11lb dog and a 70lb dos is the big dog could kill you. If someone thinks the 11lb dog could kill a person that that is funny. Would you shoot a cat if it was scratching you?
Some people are just gun happy and some cops are on power trips.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well, there WAS that rabbit in The Holy Grail.








http://www.tvsa.co.za/blogimages/soapdish_montypythonrabbit.jpg

I agree with Roxy's post above. 

I hope that no one here has to deal with a mistake, an accident and their dog getting shot. 

Yes, good pet owners do not let their dogs run at will. 

But, heaven forbid if one of my dogs somehow got out, I pray that they would encounter people who understood how to deal with them (hint-ask if they want to go for a ride in the car and open the back seat door).


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

i just weighd my cat. she is not fat and weighs 10.5 lbs for crying out loud.

people defending this are always going to return to the "it is within the department's policy to shoot a dog that is presenting a threat to an officer"...fine. it simply reflects on the person that felt threatened by a 10 lb dog. i suspect said policy was written with a far different scenario in mind.

now i love dogs and dont even want to see an agressive dog hurt, but if that dog was a 90 lb Rottweiler charging and growling at the officer and he determined he had no chance of getting into his car in time, i would have NO problem with him using any means necessary to defend himself. that is what i call "presenting a threat to an officer"...and i believe is closer to the type of situation for which such policies are intended.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lucy Dog
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


very easy..it happens all the time..

just make a thread and ask how many people have been bit by small dogs and then ask how many have been bitten/nipped in the face..


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> very easy..it happens all the time..
> 
> just make a thread and ask how many people have been bit by small dogs and then ask how many have been bitten/nipped in the face..


i could start a thread about cats and get similar responses. it doesnt mean a cat could pose the type of threat that requires gunfire.

a reasonably competent adult who is not being careless can ward off a 10 lb dog. ive been warding off dogs larger than that for many years as a runner, and im not even that competent and, surprisingly, i dont even carry a gun.

i will never believe it is reasonable to have a level of fear of a 10 lb dog that requires the response of gunfire. quite honestly. i think anyone who would feel that threatened would either have to hate dogs or be a very fearlful person in general. i might have a level of anxiety if a dog that size comes running at me, but it would be a very slight level, like "should i yell at this dog first or just wait and see if it gets close enough then kick it away"...that is the extent of my concern.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Ok, personal experience talking here.

My girl Winnie is a 20ish lb Corgi mix. She has pack aggression. If the pack gets worked up she will charge in and bite.

I had a lady over to pick up something - dog person with Great Danes. I let the dogs out of the field to say hello to her.

This was BEFORE I realized Winnie's issue.

The dogs came running at her, barking. Winnie got worked up and charged in, nailing her several times on the leg before she could react and kick her away.

This is a person that owns GREAT DANES and she got a couple bites before she was able to fend off Winnie.

Luckily she was nonchalant about the whole thing and I learned a valuable lesson.

A cops first instinct, if he has to protect himself, is to go for his gun.

He doesn't have bite resistant gloves, he shouldn't have to worry about trying to aim a tazer at a small, fast moving object and how does he know that pepper spray isn't going to just make the dog angrier? 

I find ZERO fault with the officer's actions.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My brother has a small dacshund mix and it bit his kid in the face and the kid required stiches. If a dog will charge a police officer aggressively, it may charge a child. 

I am one of the few that simply does not care that this dog was shot to death. Shot to death, run over, I do not see much of a difference. 

People who do not contain their dogs, may lose them to a variety of reasons. If containing them would have prevented it, the owner is 100% at fault. If the owner is 100% at fault, that leaves no fault on the part of the officer. 

Now, some officers may have handled it differently. Just because some people have benefitted from luck or grace, does not mean that people should expect it. If you open your door and let your dog roam the neighborhood and he comes back, you have received a bonus, every single time. The size of the dog doesn't matter.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

she didnt have time to react. if she did, her instinct most likely would have been to kick the dog. once she reacted, she did indeed fend off the dog. the cop had enough time to take his gun out and fire. he had enough time to do something more reasonable, IMO. even if by chance he got bit, which when a person kicks at a dog that small before they latch on, is unlikely, its not the type of incident that requires lethal force. we are just not talking about serious bodily injury here in the overall context of police work. 

even this woman was _"nonchalant about the whole thing"_ and she is not even in law enforcement where there are some real serious threats out there. a cops first instinct is to protect himself from a threat, and he may even instinctually grab his gun, but they are also trained to evaluate the threat. IMO, his evaluation of that particular threat was way off base. maybe this officer was too eager to fire his weapon and i have to wonder how many times he has drawn and fired his weapon in a town that small.

arguing about stupid owners is a whole other matter. the officer, after kicking the dog away, gets in the car, calls AC. they can come get the dog. owners can be fined and come pick up their dog. dogs are punished enough for having stupid owners.

almost all officers would, and do, handle this differently or we would have cops shooting small dogs left and right. if dogs like that were such a threat, we would have no delivery people on this planet. it would scare me if most police officers posessed such evaluation skills, but im confident this is not usually the case.


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

I don't buy that he felt threatened. I think he was just being a jerk.


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