# Input on pedigrees for breeding?



## OntarioGSD (Jul 27, 2013)

Just wondering if anyone with experience would graciously take a few minutes to give their input on the following pairing. We're interested in a puppy from the resulting litter in the new year. The puppy will be a family pet with possibly some basic obedience trials in his future.

Sire:
Pedigree: Ch. Timberline's All Fired Up (Prelims Good)

Dam:
Pedigree: Sonoma's Norther Dancer OVC H/E Prelim

Thanks in advance!


----------



## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

A lot of the dogs have a ROM title which an obedience title, the lines are showlines. I don't see why they wouldn't make a good pet and obedience dog


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I've seen a lot of Timberline dogs over the years at shows, and I've met one or two briefly. I think you should inquire about OFA ratings, prelims aren't good enough. At least ask to see those prelims. 

I'm not sure you'll get a lot of drive for obedience, but they should make a good family pet.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

know in advance what you would like to do with your pup.
Timberline German Shepherds - Puppies meets the mark in their goals of producing dogs able to win in the show ring . They are typical of north American bred show lines -- a little longer in body , lot of stifle , not so well defined masculine dogs -- (feminine) . Pedigree looks like it is "specialty" show type and not all-breed , so a little more extreme . Temperament you will have to see for yourself if it is what you want . Some can be very mousy . Some good in that you will have a dog that won't cause you any grief , but you will be limited as to what you can do with the dog. That is why I said know what you might like to do and make sure you find the right dog for your ambitions . 

In the meantime attend some shows . The Credit Valley club always puts on a good Christmas show http://www.mjnshowservices.com/mjnplists/creditvalleypl2013.pdf

then there are other activities , but you'll have to wait for the new year . Credit Valley pretty much winds it up .
Schutzhund trials, specialty shows - all breed conformation shows.

Get references


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ROM is not an obedience title - it is recognition of a dog , male or female , being able to produce similar quality in a required number of champions . This is a title given by the German Shepherd Dog Club of Canada . Been there , done that . 
The only obedience title is back in the 5th generation and that is a very basic CD , companion dog . Tells you little . For all you know the person may have trialed the dog 10 or 12 times to get the required qualifying 3 trials with a score over 170 , and then they may have had a 170 --


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

To follow up a little on what Carmen said:

ROM = Register of Merit. It's a conformation achievement given to dogs whose progeny include a certain number of champions and champion-pointed show dogs. You can read more about it here: Register of Merit (ROM)

It can be a bit confusing because other breeds have different Register of Merit programs (for example, Belgian Malinois have their own ROM program which lists dogs that have achieved both conformation championships and performance titles of varying levels; their version of the ROM has nothing whatsoever to do with the dog's offspring), but in German Shepherds, it is a pure conformation title.

I agree with Wild Wolf's point about the prelims.

The good thing about considering an active show breeder is that you should be able to take a look at some of their dogs if you can get to a show where they're exhibiting. Conformation showing can be a pretty stressful environment for many dogs, so seeing them there should give you at least a limited sense of how the dog handles being in a noisy, crowded, chaotic situation.

I'm not familiar with this kennel firsthand. I ran the kennel name through DSS just to see what came up, and it looks like they placed a puppy in my area, but I'm not familiar with that dog.

From what I can tell, it looks like this breeder is purely into conformation showing, which is not a bad thing if you just want a family pet with the _possibility_ of doing novice-level obedience. If you want to set the performance ceiling higher, though, I might suggest looking elsewhere.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

You have already gotten good advice. If yu want more info ab9out specific dogs in the pedigree, you can PM me.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Line bred on Dallas, decent American/Canadian showline I think. 

I thought you could get some of your ROM points through your progeny's titles, like a CD is worth 5 points or something like that. But I could be all wet on that. 

Either way, they are a show-line dogs and there is nothing wrong with that. Lots of show line breeders do only conformation, and are not into any of the other performance events. There are temperament tests they do, and temperament is supposed to be judged every time the dog enters the ring. I am not talking about whether or not the dog will take on a freight train for you, but a complete nerve bag _should _not get championship points. 

Last I heard Dallas was titled, possibly a hearding champion, though I will have to look that up.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

The sire is a Bailey son (Ch. Kenlyn's Aries V HiCliff ROM OFA H/E). My Carly is a Bailey granddaughter. That's all I know. 

Daphne knows Am show line pedigrees way better than I do. See what she has to say. 

(and yes, Dallas had some herding titles)


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is the show venue that I was thinking of - big -- prestigious , elite dogs competing -- big draw for entries and spectators . Caledon kennel club Caledon Kennel Association

used to be in downtown Toronto moved out to airport road now -- great buildings for the event - easy parking , which Toronto was not.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dallas is hard to get away from in American show lines. He was an impressive dog, but died young, at only 9. Baily, I think and Bronson are some of his well-known progeny.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

selzer said:


> Dallas is hard to get away from in American show lines. He was an impressive dog, but died young, at only 9. Baily, I think and Bronson are some of his well-known progeny.


Dallas died? From what? I never met him, but friends did at the Garden. Said he was a lovely dog, " fir a showline". This is coming from working line people, for them to say anything nice is impressive. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, he died years ago. Not sure what from, just know he was 9.


----------



## OntarioGSD (Jul 27, 2013)

Thank you to everyone for your replies. I appreciate you taking the time to look.

The most important considerations for us are health and a good (family pet type) temperament. I will take some time tomorrow to search the databases for hip/elbow certifications instead of only the prelims and ask the breeder about this.

As for temperament/energy level, we are hoping for a dog who will be a member of the family for hikes, walks, fetch, etc but will not require 4-5 hours of exercise each day just to keep him from destroying the house (once mature). We would like to train him in some novice level obedience type activities for fun but will likely not compete in such events.

I did notice one or two dogs appearing in the pedigrees more than once but am guessing that's not negative as no one has mentioned that it's less than desirable.

There has been a previous litter from this pair so I will ask the breeder for references from their new owners - although I believe the litter is only a year old, it would be nice to talk to some of their owners.

Thanks again to everyone!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

There are GSDs and then there are GSDs.... As with any animal nothing wrong with inbreeding as long as its for the right reasons on the right individual. Unfortunately most show breedings do not represent that imo.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There are GSDs and then there are GSDs.... As with any animal nothing wrong with inbreeding as long as its for the right reasons on the right individual. Unfortunately most show breedings do not represent that imo.


Ya know what? Most of the time when I click on a do-you-like-this-pairing, and it is a working line pedigree, I just leave it to the working line people. I do not put in my wealth of unnecessary opinions to try to, what? encourage the working line people to come across the aisle to the showlines. 

I don't go on every working line thread and demand, where are the show ratings on these dogs? Well, show ratings are stupid anyway, every dog will get a rating and if you are ok with a SG or even a G, well... Where are the champions? That's the real test. Where are the ROMs? Where are the VA -- Excellent Select dogs? Where are the Grand Victors? 

Blitzkrieg1, you like the working lines, you believe they are the best representative of the GSD out there today. Good for you. Not everyone does. And for WL people to chronically denagrate the showline dogs for lack of title, proper (in your opinion) titles, and even if they have schutzhund titles, they have to jump the HOT hoop too -- IF THEY ARE SHOWLINES. It's irritating that every thread where someone is asking about a dog has to come down to someone adding their negative opinion about showlines. 

People need to get over themselves. You don't like the lines, just back out of the thread and don't comment. It is really easy. Unless you are just looking for converts. LOTS of people have and love their show line dogs. And, YES, you will not get a championship litter without some line breeding.


----------



## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

*caledon kennel club show*

This show that Carmen has mentioned has great numbers for GSD;s 11 on Friday, 22 Saturday and 20 sunday looking at the judges there should be a number of American Showlines there but also there will be some German Showline there also because of the FCI judges. The panel at the other show that Carmen mentioned the credit valley show in Orangeville should also be well represented as it is also a good panel for GSD'S. attached is the judging schedule for the Caledon show this weekend

http://www.caledondogs.com/PDF-files/2013-JS.pdf


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> Ya know what? Most of the time when I click on a do-you-like-this-pairing, and it is a working line pedigree, I just leave it to the working line people.


I'll admit I was pretty excited to see someone post an ASL pedigree.  

I know several people with Bailey sons and daughters. I believe a Bailey son is the number one GSD in the country right now. "Fritz". (GCH CH Wolf Creek Galaxy Of Merivern). Cool dog. I've been around him at several shows. He's a full sibling to Carly's mother.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sue, I believe Dallas died in his sleep. 

Trivia : Dallas had a lot of white on his toes. In the ring, he didn't. Right or wrong, it was covered up. Apparently he was on the cover of a magazine one time showing him herding sheep, and he had white toes. Ooops! Carly had white tipped toes when she was a puppy, but it disappeared when she got older. Dallas threw a lot of white.

I have a nice Dallas story. I co-own my dogs with a girl who showed as a junior when she was young. When she was about 10, she was at a show with her GSD and Jimmy Moses was there showing Dallas. She approached him and asked if she could pet Dallas. He said " here, go play ball with him". Handed her a ball, and Dallas. She was thrilled! What a nice thing to do.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Merciel said:


> From what I can tell, it looks like this breeder is purely into conformation showing, which is not a bad thing if you just want a family pet with the _possibility_ of doing novice-level obedience. If you want to set the performance ceiling higher, though, I might suggest looking elsewhere.


Maybe, maybe not.

Carly has a half brother that has 5 or 6 AKC champion points. He also has a CDX and is working on his UD. And has an RA title. If you looked at his pedigree, you might see a couple of CDs. His litter sister is crazy good on sheep. This dog also has a bunch of Dallas behind him (on both sides).


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> Sue, I believe Dallas died in his sleep.


Gunner is a Dallas grandson so I did some research on him years ago. I could not find any definitive cause of death, other than speculation from people on other forums.
From what I did find, the owners decided against a necropsy but suspected that he died from a stroke.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

dogfaeries said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> Carly has a half brother that has 5 or 6 AKC champion points. He also has a CDX and is working on his UD. And has an RA title. If you looked at his pedigree, you might see a couple of CDs. His litter sister is crazy good on sheep. This dog also has a bunch of Dallas behind him (on both sides).


Well, that's why I said "might" and not "should." 

I do want to clarify that my statement wasn't intended to be a knock on show lines per se, though. It's more of a banal observation that "if it's really important to you that you be able to do X sport, then it's a safer bet to choose a dog from a breeder whose dogs (of whatever line) are proven in X venue." There are show breeders who emphasize performance as well as conformation, and if you want to do performance events -- especially as a relative newbie -- then it's probably sensible to look for one of those.

But the OP has said that they probably won't be doing a ton of trialing so it's a moot point anyway.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

*input on pedigrees for breeding?*



BUBBAGSD said:


> This show that Carmen has mentioned has great numbers for GSD;s 11 on Friday, 22 Saturday and 20 sunday looking at the judges there should be a number of American Showlines there but also there will be some German Showline there also because of the FCI judges. The panel at the other show that Carmen mentioned the credit valley show in Orangeville should also be well represented as it is also a good panel for GSD'S. attached is the judging schedule for the Caledon show this weekend
> 
> http://www.caledondogs.com/PDF-files/2013-JS.pdf


 Go treat yourself . The Caledon club brings in the spirit of the season . Go for the dogs , go for the people. You'll meet lots of breeders , lots of people also looking to add a GSD to their family.

Look for the dog (s) , kennel representation that has the go-everywhere behaviour that you want . Take notes , then go visit the kennel and get a closer look . 
The nice thing is that these shows are all-breed , not "specialty" and the judges , qualified to judge other breeds , often a "group" have a different perspective on balance and conformation . Specialty show appreciation and entries tend to be the more extreme type.

You might see me at the Caledon .


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

carmspack said:


> You might see me at the Caledon .


Where is it / what is the date? I would like to go, wouldn't mind meeting up with anyone attending!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

turf you are familiar with ms wild wolf -- AIRPORT road !! http://www.caledondogs.com/PDF-files/2013-JS.pdf 
I'm trying to see if Linda (Shaw) wants to come out with me - most likely Saturday. Would love to meet some folks also.


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

carmspack said:


> turf you are familiar with ms wild wolf -- AIRPORT road !! http://www.caledondogs.com/PDF-files/2013-JS.pdf
> I'm trying to see if Linda (Shaw) wants to come out with me - most likely Saturday. Would love to meet some folks also.


Excellent! If you and Linda go, please let me know and I would love to meet up with you guys! I know you already have my e-mail, but just in case: [email protected] I can give you my phone # via PM as well!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

selzer said:


> Ya know what? Most of the time when I click on a do-you-like-this-pairing, and it is a working line pedigree, I just leave it to the working line people. I do not put in my wealth of unnecessary opinions to try to, what? encourage the working line people to come across the aisle to the showlines.
> 
> I don't go on every working line thread and demand, where are the show ratings on these dogs? Well, show ratings are stupid anyway, every dog will get a rating and if you are ok with a SG or even a G, well... Where are the champions? That's the real test. Where are the ROMs? Where are the VA -- Excellent Select dogs? Where are the Grand Victors?
> 
> ...


*So we should only say nice things if someone asks about lines? There are plenty of misconceptions about GSDs and most people arent aware that "there are GSDs and there are GSDs". *
*Then again maybe they want a watered down version of the real deal thats likely shy and has low drive...I dont know..*

*If the op had already bought the dog I would not have commented and left it to the positive comments only folks.*


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I wasn't aware that there are GSDs and then there are GSDs...what you learn on the internet


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

holland said:


> I wasn't aware that there are GSDs and then there are GSDs...what you learn on the internet


Now you know..gotta love the internet.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

for those in the GTA interested in attending the Caledon show tomorrow here is the schedule 

RING 5 - JUDGE: Dr. G. Bodegard
8:00 a.m. 

23 Australian Shepherd 8-8-4-3
2 Bearded Collie 1-0-0-1
9:00 a.m. 2 Belgian Shepherd 1-0-1-0
3 Border Collie 0-1-1-1
2 Bouvier 0-1-1-0
5 Collie (Rough) 3-2-0-0
3 Collie (Smooth) 1-1-1-0
22 German Shepherd 7-8-3-4

So probably not before 9 am.

see you there Wild Wolf -- !!!!


----------



## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

Went to the Caledon show today , great show for exhibitors and spectators. Today was the only day we entered ,at 6 months and 5 days our Gator took best of winners , puppy in breed and puppy in group. Very happy about the results, unfortunately not going either tomorrow or Sunday. Anybody that is going I hope you have a great day, although they have chairs at ringside , you might want to bring your favourite fold-up. Also for those interested they are doing CGN testing at the show both Saturday and Sunday


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Congrats! Sounds like it's going to be a full event!

If I didn't have training both days I would of attended! I get to go play in the snow and mud though instead... :S LOL


----------



## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks Liz

Besides the good number of GSD's there are a number of specialities going on tomorrow and sunday. For the Siberian husky specialty theres over 70 dogs. One of the bigger ones of the year


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Woah! That is amazing! Too bad I have to miss it.  Although I can't complain too much, I love herding.. even in the cold.. lol.


----------



## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

It shouldn't be too bad for herding, better then in the middle of july. We've done a bit of herding with our dogs but there is nothing really close.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

That is true, and better when it's not raining either!  I don't mind this weather to be honest, as long as you dress for it, it's not bad.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Best of Winners for a pup -- Congratulations . You've got to post a picture . Too bad you won't be there Saturday .


----------



## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks Carmen

Although there wasn't many class dogs yesterday it was still nice to get the bow We had a picture taken at the end of the show and the photographer let right after , Gator is in a few more shows in the next couple of weeks so when I get a photo I will post it. I hope you have a good time at todays'
show


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

BOW! Congrats! We need photos!  Waiting for that show photo seems like an eternity...


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there was a very nice pup that went in for group -- one to watch - (Saturday) -- had some sparkle and very nice structure
nicer than Winners Dog in group


----------

