# Opinion on this 100% DDR Breeding?



## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

Mating test - German shepherd dog

Thoughts?

TIA!


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

I hate to be pushy, but 49 views and no one has anything to say about this breeding?? :help: 

If you don't want to say it in public, please feel free to send me a PM!


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

I think some of those views are people like me who were interested in seeing the pairing, but don't know enough to feel comfortable giving you advice. Sorry I couldn't be more help.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Lots of line breeding, hope the breeder knows what their doing?


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

Caitydid255 said:


> I think some of those views are people like me who were interested in seeing the pairing, but don't know enough to feel comfortable giving you advice. Sorry I couldn't be more help.


Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I was just shocked when I saw the number of views and no new posts..  I am very curious to find out more on this breeding, so I was kind of disappointed that no one had said anything.. :help: But I completely understand what you mean! I have been known to glance at a topic without posting as well  ; I guess I just got a little antsy because no one was answering, lol.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm no help, but I LOVE DDR DOGS!!! <3


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Lots of line breeding, hope the breeder knows what their doing?


That's what my original thought was too... I am just learning how to read pedigrees though, so I wasn't sure if all that line breeding was good or bad.


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

WarrantsWifey said:


> I'm no help, but I LOVE DDR DOGS!!! <3


Me too!! They are *gorgeous*!!!! :wub:


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Sacha might want to send Cliff a pm for thoughts

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/36752-cliffson1.html


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

I looked because I'm trying to learn about these things...I know nothing in this department


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Sacha might want to send Cliff a pm for thoughts
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/36752-cliffson1.html


Thanks Brandi! Will shoot him a PM now


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think this is a very good pedigree.
Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I think this is a very nice breeding on paper--how do you like the parents in person? 

Although it is a 3-3 breeding on Tino, neither of the parents is linebred, so the pups will not be too tightly bred. Tino is a dog who the DDR breeders seem to go to improve working ability, so the choice of a dog to linebreed on is a good one.

What are the mom's hip ratings?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Tino well known for strong instinctive tracking and search drives.
Henk Moschel provides strong confident aggression . Lord Gleisdreieck, similar , strong drives , great tracking, confident aggression . You actually have Lord on the pedigree 3 times . Ditto on Sven Grafental. You have Bac Weisen Holz who ended up working as a PD k9 in Chicago area-- very very tough dog , I know Joe Kuhn had to involve himself and straighten things out . 
I am familiar with the lines and the combinations -- present in my Nov 3 litter .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

These are basically the same things I told OP in a pm. One thing that should be noted is this will not produce "competition" drives, but will produce dogs that will do Sch/obedience work. If I was looking for a good SAR candidate, this type of breeding would be a good start. Good sound DDR breeding with the 3-3 on Tino definitely strengthening the working traits.


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I think this is a very nice breeding on paper--how do you like the parents in person?
> 
> Although it is a 3-3 breeding on Tino, neither of the parents is linebred, so the pups will not be too tightly bred. Tino is a dog who the DDR breeders seem to go to improve working ability, so the choice of a dog to linebreed on is a good one.
> 
> What are the mom's hip ratings?


I met both parents and I have to say I loved BOTH the sire and dam :wub: Ali is very impressive in person and has a great ball drive (what I'm looking for) and his obedience is nice too! (Not as "flashy" as I would like, but it is nice) Elsa is a very very sweet dog! She had (from what I could see) gorgeous looks and a nice temperament. :wub: I liked that both Elsa and Ali have natural tracking abilities. (because I don't know all that much about tracking myself, lol) 

The only thing that came into question about this breeding was if the puppies produced would be good at Schutzhund or not. Now that's cleared up - they would be able to do Schutzhund, but aren't competition dogs. 

I'm not sure what Elsa's hip ratings are. (not on Pedigree Database, or the breeder's website) I will have to ask the breeder.


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Tino well known for strong instinctive tracking and search drives.
> Henk Moschel provides strong confident aggression . Lord Gleisdreieck, similar , strong drives , great tracking, confident aggression . You actually have Lord on the pedigree 3 times . Ditto on Sven Grafental. You have Bac Weisen Holz who ended up working as a PD k9 in Chicago area-- very very tough dog , I know Joe Kuhn had to involve himself and straighten things out .
> I am familiar with the lines and the combinations -- present in my Nov 3 litter .
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Thank you!!!! This is very helpful information!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think there is a lot of power in the pedigree and lots of potential. Work with the instincts as they reveal themselves instead of fitting into a prefab format . Lord produced some excellent police service dogs and are used by "von Lord Fandor" . On this site you will see many of the dogs on your pedigree including Wendi Schwedenschanzen who is the dam of Hetty on mr Baumann's site . Just a beautiful specimen. 
thought you might enjoy this 



(what is that piece of stirring music)

here is a pedigree that I have . Slow to mature . Como vom Parchimer Land - German shepherd dog

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

That music was awesome with that video-sorry I am soo off topic


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

carmspack said:


> I think there is a lot of power in the pedigree and lots of potential. Work with the instincts as they reveal themselves instead of fitting into a prefab format . Lord produced some excellent police service dogs and are used by "von Lord Fandor" . On this site you will see many of the dogs on your pedigree including Wendi Schwedenschanzen who is the dam of Hetty on mr Baumann's site . Just a beautiful specimen.
> thought you might enjoy this YouTube - ‪Carlo von Lord Fandor‬‏
> (what is that piece of stirring music)
> 
> ...


Wow the dog on that video is stunning, and so is Hetti!! :wub: :wub: The music fits the video perfectly, IMO


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

Kamahi said:


> BlackthornGSD said:
> 
> 
> > What are the mom's hip ratings?
> ...


Oops, :blush: I must have originally overlooked it on the breeder's website. It DOES say what her hips are.. *Hips: OFA good*


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## Jamie_in_KY (Nov 4, 2006)

Ali has excellent tracking and Elsa always has her nose to the ground. So, as others mentioned, I feel these pups will have nice tracking drives.
Ali will do anything for the ball/toy/stick/etc (lol). But we haven't been working him consistantly in obedience lately so he is getting a bit rusty there, but I don't think it would take much to get him polished because he is so willing.
These pups are gorgeous too. I think, Sacha, that you will definitely get the look you want if you go with this litter.


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## Kamahi (Feb 27, 2010)

Kamahi said:


> I met both parents and I have to say I loved BOTH the sire and dam :wub: Ali is very impressive in person and has a great ball drive (what I'm looking for) and his obedience is nice too! *(Not as "flashy" as I would like, but it is nice)*





Jamie_in_KY said:


> Ali has excellent tracking and Elsa always has her nose to the ground. So, as others mentioned, I feel these pups will have nice tracking drives.
> Ali will do anything for the ball/toy/stick/etc (lol). But we haven't been working him consistantly in obedience lately so he is getting a bit rusty there, but I don't think it would take much to get him polished because he is so willing.
> These pups are gorgeous too. I think, Sacha, that you will definitely get the look you want if you go with this litter.


I probably should have added that in there! I do remember you (or Don..don't remember now!) told me Ali hadn't been worked consistently in obedience, so that's why he seemed a little rusty. Sorry about that! 

With a stunning Dam like Elsa and handsome Sire Ali, I am sure they are all drop-dead gorgeous!!! :wub:


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Do you already know where you will be training your new SchH puppy? Often DDR dogs are a little misunderstood when they start training. I also don't think a flashy obedience is something that DDR dogs are known for. Good solid obedience, yes.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> One thing that should be noted is this will not produce "*competition*" drives, but will produce dogs that will do *Sch/obedience* work.


Can you please explain what this statement meant? What is the difference with competition drive and Sch/obedience work?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What is meant is that these dogs generally will not have the kind of prey drive necessary for high placings in the competitions of Sch. By that I mean Regional, National, International placings and scores. The type of obedience and protection work sought by for the Sch competitors is based in developing the prey for flashy obedience and flying prey bites. DDR dogs are not usually possessing of this level of prey, they tend to be handler sensitive so that many of the training techniques that are popular today will not be effective with them until they are 4,5 years old. For club particpation and Sch titling, they are great dogs, but like the West Showlines, you are not going to see predominatly DDR pedigreed dogs in top competitions. For different reasons than showline, but still neither are successful in today's competition world.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cliff....a question for you.
My young DDR female has a large amount of "prey drive" & ball drive.
She has just started to come into her own with her "defense drive"...and has a nice balance. She IS handler sensitive that is for sure....but eager for reward.
She is 20 mos old.
Looking at her pedigree (which I gave you in a PM before)...where do you think that her higher than average prey drive comes from?...especially for the DDR bloodlines.?

BTW...for anyone wanting to see her pedigree, it can be found on the PDB.
Name: Just Isadorable vom Kistha Haus.
*I don't know how to provide links...sorry.*


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I am great at the copy and paste function. LOL

Just IsAdorable Vom Kistha Haus - German shepherd dog


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

YOU ROCK! Thanks!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Kamahi said:


> I hate to be pushy, but 49 views and no one has anything to say about this breeding?? :help:
> 
> If you don't want to say it in public, please feel free to send me a PM!


Brings to mind breedings in West Virginia. Might get some buck teeth but a
REAL good banjo picker.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Robin,
I don't want to imply that DDR have no prey, or that it is JUST prey that keeps them from being "competition" dogs; rather it is a combination of elements that make this a reality. There are some showlines with very good prey drive, there are some DDR dogs with decent prey drive. But to be a good competition dog today; where a lot of what the judges are looking for are training elements as opposed to instinctive aspects, then DDR dogs don't fit the mold. There is prey drive and there is PREY drive, and the type you find in the winning dogs is usually on another plane. Also there is the element of type of training done in most clubs in the country is very conducive to developing and transitioning this drive into a pleasing picture. There are DDR that have prey, and certainly some of the dogs from Lord through Alk had decent prey, but not the kind that makes it to the podium. Remember, in this breed you can also get an exception, like a DDR dog with very good prey, or a showline dog with the hardness and tenacity for top sport, but these dogs are exceptions and cannot consistently produce what they are in their progeny, because they are exceptions.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Cliff....a question for you.
> My young DDR female has a large amount of "prey drive" & ball drive.
> She has just started to come into her own with her "defense drive"...and has a nice balance. She IS handler sensitive that is for sure....but eager for reward.
> She is 20 mos old.
> ...


I'd say the higher drives come to a degree from Zorro v Laager Wall--she is linebred 4,5,5 on him. He was a very strong producer of working drives.

But looking at the pedigree, a number of the dogs behind her are the DDR dogs bred more for drive/working ability--notably, Filou, Zorro, Don v Haus Iris, Lord, Tino, Nando, Alf Kornersee.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cliff....I completely understand what you are saying. I didn't take your comment as to imply anything negative regarding any bloodline.....I'm sorry if my post came across as so.
I simply wanted your "knowledge" into the pedigree...to inform me, where my female might receive her better than average prey drive from?.....which dogs (if any) may have contributed to her very nice balance of drives....
She has in all honesty...probably a 60/40 prey/defense...at this age.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Robin,
> I don't want to imply that DDR have no prey, or that it is JUST prey that keeps them from being "competition" dogs; rather it is a combination of elements that make this a reality.
> 
> ...
> ...


I'm really seeing the different "flavor" of prey drive in my DDR girl Oda--she's got intense "real prey" drive--but only moderate ball/prey drive. She stalks and is intensely interested in her prey targets. But a ball is just for some casual pouncing and shaking--not "real prey" to her.

In the sport-type dogs, you tend to get low thresholds (easy to "turn on"), higher energy and activity level, as well as _very high_ prey drive. In addition, they tend to want to interact a lot to fulfill their prey drive--they push for interaction and play/ball training.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Thanks Christine!
I am learning on the different WL bloodlines.....and the specific dogs within the bloodlines. I appreciate all information...good & bad.
What I don't know....I always ask from the knowledgeable....so I thank you!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Izzy has prey drive (as in moving target..ie tug, rope, helper etc..)....and she has strong ball drive (play drive).
Her defense drive is just starting to become stronger (serious)...she has really surprised us actually. She can "switch" drives very easily.
Personally....I think she will become better than we first anticipated....she matured very slowly, and because of that...we worked very slowly with her...and have not rushed into her training.
My husband is a firm believer that all dogs learn as individuals....so they must be "taught" as individuals.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hi Cliff . I know what you are trying to say but I think that the reason behind it is not quite right . I have had DDR dogs for a very long time. The dog that opens my web page is a Purina Hall of Fame police dog . His sire was Grando Mecklenburger Buffel. My next winning combination for work was my Kilo , sire of several rcmp dogs, several specialist detection dogs, sire and grand sire ...and continuing down the generations, was a son of Ulf v haus Iris. The way that I see it is that the west german working lines provide the "hardness" and the ddr dogs provide the "instinct" , natural talent. A mutual friend (J K) and I had this very discussion and he agreed. There is the problem . It is a natural talent, as herding dogs have a natural talent , as , hopefully, dogs in SAR - detection , have a natural talent for tracking , trailing etc. You need time to allow the dog to arrive at that point where the natural talent can be put to best use . 
Schutzhund people tend to like a structured framework , a time line , almost an industrial approach rather than a perceptive , customized , organic education.
For pete's sake I've got full ddr pups now which are just big goofy pups -- at an age where we've had dogs evaluated and approved and entered into a police certification program . 
I think the routine and the pushing for perfection in delivery are off putting to the ddr dogs -- that is where hardness comes in handy. 
We are not talking about hardness in fight drive , protection / defense of handler .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I had a Zorro grandson (best dog ever!) he was real slow to mature, didn't have alot of prey drive but alot of play drive. Not alot of defense either, but I'm sure it had to do with his dam as well. Very biddable , easy trainer, rather middle of the road type.

Masi is a Reiko granddaughter, and I see some of the same things, just beginning to really mature out at 3, not high prey drive, but alot of play drive, higher defense drives, and that 'tude' of I'll try anything if you ask me to. 

Robin, I didnt realize izzy goes back to zorro, love those lines, and I absolutely admire Kim's dogs..would love a male out of her Rookie..


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Diane,
I've had the pleasure to watch 3 Rookie pups grow....
The male "Bear"...has just been certified as a dual purpose Police K9...and will be working in Illinois.
I really like the overall temperaments on these 3 young dogs.....I would recommend a "Rookie" pup to anyone.
*The only thing that would make *me* happier.....is if Kim would put a working title on Rookie.* But I also know....that a title does not truly measure a dog's worth, and is not the be all of anything. I only wish that he was titled for my own agendas....I have full intentions of titling Izzy.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> What is meant is that these dogs generally will not have the kind of prey drive necessary for high placings in the competitions of Sch. By that I mean Regional, National, International placings and scores. The type of obedience and protection work sought by for the Sch competitors is based in developing the prey for flashy obedience and flying prey bites. DDR dogs are not usually possessing of this level of prey, they tend to be handler sensitive so that many of the training techniques that are popular today will not be effective with them until they are 4,5 years old. For club particpation and Sch titling, they are great dogs, but like the West Showlines, you are not going to see predominatly DDR pedigreed dogs in top competitions. For different reasons than showline, but still neither are successful in today's competition world.


Yes, my bitches lines has that kind of prey drive, which is why, many dogs out of that kennel are competing at world level. Sometimes I wished she had a little less prey and would think more. 

For the OP: This is the kind of line breeding that you would see in a competition dog: Indra vom Sattelberg - German shepherd dog

However, a lot of breeders are trying to get away from Fero and Mink linebreeding. While they produce successful dogs, it comes with a price and that is longer bodies and bigger ears over the time.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, 
What you wrote was what I thought I was trying to say in a short condensed form. To be a competition dog today requires many elements, one of which is excellent prey drive. But it also requires a certain hardness that the prey drive allows the dogs to recover to. Many of the East dogs as I was trying to say are very naturally instinctive workers. I have had over 40 puppies out of a Artus/Zorro female from three different sires. One sire was all Czech,(Andy Maly Vah), one sire was 3/4 German,1/4 Czech(German stock being Gandalf Oberhausener-Kruez, Sirk, Aly, Maineiche,etc), and one being 3/4 Czech and 1/4 German. The mother was heavily Held/Artus linebred. Out of all these dogs I got no dog that had the type of prey/grips/hardness all in one you will often see in West working breeding. I did get some good prey out of some but the handler sensitivity was there. I got some good police dogs out of every litter. I got some great grips from each litter, but I did not get what I would call a good dog for competition sport in normal hands. (Now you take some trainers and give them a little talent and they "train" it to very high levels) But the average good handler would not look to these dogs for top sport. Yet, they were what I wanted because I don't breed for top sport no more than I breed for show. Its not just having good prey, is what I'm trying to say makes a good competition dog of today.....like Carmen said there's a certain type of hardness and compatibility with today's sport training methods. Funny, how this particular female would not produce top sport dogs in terms of raw material, yet she produced excellent police/patrol/hunt drive in many of her progeny. I hope this makes sense. 
Robin, I didn't think you thought I was implying anything negative....I just was trying to broaden the spectrum to more than "prey drive" when I talk about competition dogs. 
I remember Uwe Stople,(German Judge and past breeder of DDR lines that made it to BSP), in talking about Nando and Nister, that DDR dogs were not dogs to get for competition Sch anymore because of the emphasis on elements that are more prey originated.
Cliff


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, my bitches lines has that kind of prey drive, which is why, many dogs out of that kennel are competing at world level. Sometimes I wished she had a little less prey and would think more.
> 
> For the OP: This is the kind of line breeding that you would see in a competition dog: Indra vom Sattelberg - German shepherd dog
> 
> However, a lot of breeders are trying to get away from Fero and Mink linebreeding. While they produce successful dogs, it comes with a price and that is longer bodies and bigger ears over the time.


 
You know I get that people might like the whole Fero/Mink free thing...but this has to be the most ridiculous thing that I have ever read-seriously. I should have gotten up earlier and gone tracking


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

holland said:


> You know I get that people might like the whole Fero/Mink free thing...but this has to be the most ridiculous thing that I have ever read-seriously. I should have gotten up earlier and gone tracking


Well, that is what people say and there is a trend to longer dogs and ridiculously big ears that over time even soften. Granted, nobody has proven a connection between the two. However, there is a little truth to every rumor.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

People say a lot of things that are just plain dumb


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

To be honest, it's more the breeders fault than anybodies elses. If they have soft ears in their breeding it's because of a wrong selection process... probably another excuse just as "your dog has HD because it wasn't crated all the time"


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I remember the great breeder/owner, Alfred Hahn, of Busecker Schloss kennel in Germany, saying there was a correlation between German Shepherds with light eyes and a higher working ability. Don't know if he was crazy or not, do know he was a great breeder of the past with vast knowledge of the breed.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

People have their believes. Wished breeding was easier and selection was easier....


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Robin,

My pup Jag (he is 16 months old so still a baby) goes back to Herzi's brother Henry. He loves to play fetch, and will do so much longer than I will! And loves water, but some of that also comes from my ASL's.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I remember the great breeder/owner, Alfred Hahn, of Busecker Schloss kennel in Germany, saying there was a correlation between German Shepherds with light eyes and a higher working ability. Don't know if he was crazy or not, do know he was a great breeder of the past with vast knowledge of the breed.


That is very interesting Cliff. If you were to take the two pups here. That statement would hold true. Weird!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Purely coincidence....LOL


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I remember the great breeder/owner, Alfred Hahn, of Busecker Schloss kennel in Germany, saying there was a correlation between German Shepherds with light eyes and a higher working ability. Don't know if he was crazy or not, do know he was a great breeder of the past with vast knowledge of the breed.


Back in the 30s, Humphery and Wierner, after years of breeding at Fortunate Fields noted a correlation being light color eyes and working ability. Their work was published in 1934 but a great deal of the information is applicable in today's breedings. 
It is an interesting book and addresses breeding working line German shepherds that would also be qualified in conformation. Their research is fascinating and based on sound scientific methods.

PS. Cliff check your pm.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

C'mon Doc, You know the people in the past did things by wife's tales....can't put any credence in that.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I'm really seeing the different "flavor" of prey drive in my DDR girl Oda--she's got intense "real prey" drive--but only moderate ball/prey drive. She stalks and is intensely interested in her prey targets. But a ball is just for some casual pouncing and shaking--not "real prey" to her.


I'm noticing this a lot with Kopper, who goes back to Sven, Sando, and Venus like to your O litter. He's nuts for his flirtpole and for other things that move and interact like real prey. We also have to really watch it with the moving shadows and lasers around him; I've seen a tendency to become obsessed like Cash was and want to avoid that. But as far as playing ball, he does it to humor me. In fact, I'm not able to throw the ball with the Chuckit because to him, the end of the Chuckit moves like the end of the flirtpole and he'd rather chase the ball thrower than the ball. I've had him try to climb me to get to the ball thrower. Very weird. 

And _ye gods!_ nothing scares or phases this dog. 

He also has lighter, caramel colored eyes.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your dog Kopper has a very interesting pedigree, a tad of West with the Szaltablick dog. Also, one of the dogs in the first three generations is linebred 4-4 on Gomo von Scheiferhaus, who was maybe the best producing progeny of Held v Ritterberg, that most people don't know about. 
Nice pedigree....not surprised about the dog's temperament.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> C'mon Doc, You know the people in the past did things by wife's tales....can't put any credence in that.


Cliff, I'm old and senile - I thought they knew what they were doing. I guess they just threw dogs together and poof - out comes a german shepherd that is worthy to be called one. My mistake. Strike my last post from the record! :crazy:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> Your dog Kopper has a very interesting pedigree, a tad of West with the Szaltablick dog. Also, one of the dogs in the first three generations is linebred 4-4 on Gomo von Scheiferhaus, who was maybe the best producing progeny of Held v Ritterberg, that most people don't know about.
> Nice pedigree....not surprised about the dog's temperament.


He's been just amazing so far. Everything I could have asked for, and some things I wouldn't have thought to ask for.


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