# Is my breeder irresponsible, or am I just unlucky?



## pentaflex (Feb 2, 2016)

In April of last year, I purchased a puppy from _*** Kennel Name Removed by ADMIN ***_ in Colorado. In June, after showing lameness in his left forearm, he was diagnosed with ununited anconeal process (elbow dysplasia). Further examination and X-rays revealed bilateral hip dysplasia as well.

I advised _*** Owner Name Removed by ADMIN ***_ of my puppy’s diagnosis and requested she refund the purchase price. I hoped this would help defray the cost of what was likely to be several surgeries. She refused, noting that her guarantee provides for a replacement puppy, not a refund. (She is correct; her guarantee clearly states it is to replace, not to refund.)

_Is it typical and industry accepted practice not to refund the purchase price of a puppy diagnosed with CHD just two months after purchase (and only four months old)?_

I researched _*** Kennel Name Removed by ADMIN ***_ the dogs were high quality. My puppy was sired by her prize dog _*** Removed by ADMIN ***_. In those first two months my puppy had become a member of our family. I did not wish to replace him, so I elected to proceed with surgery to correct the elbow dysplasia. I intended to address the CHD afterward with TPO surgery as recommended by my vet. 

The elbow surgery was successful. However, more X-rays revealed that the hip dysplasia was so advanced that TPO would not be effective. By then my puppy was suffering to the extent I made the difficult decision to put him at rest. He was nine months old.

I will not go through this again. I do not want a replacement puppy. Although I know the breeder has no legal obligation to do so, I feel the right thing for her to do is refund the purchase price (which is only a fraction of what I spent on veterinary care). _Am I wrong to feel this way?_


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you signed the contract, then yes you are wrong in feeling this way. Sorry, but per your own words her policy is clear.


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

I agree, if you signed a contract, and it was clearly stated her policy was to replace the puppy, not refund the purchase price, then you are in the wrong to feel like she should refund your price. Even if both the parents have amazing hips and elbows, they could still produce an offspring that just doesn't have them. 

If you want to add another puppy into your life, go with your contract. Perhaps see if she'll allow you to wait a while, perhaps a year to replace him. Otherwise, there is nothing you can do.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Did you sign a contract with a stated health guarantee? If so, small claims court and a Yelp review might motivate the breeder to refund your money. I'd be leery to get another pup from that breeder too. I feel your pain. I went through something similar last year and was refunded my purchase money but not vet bills.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

No, you are not wrong to feel this way. You did everything you should have as a responsible owner. Things go wrong sometimes, I know you got that. However, the reason for the breeder charging their fees in the first place is because you not have been subjected to the same thing as if you had purchased thru a BYB.

Their line failed - their normal health guarantee based upon line failed- the failure to perform certainly wasn't on you but the breeder. THIS is why I don't believe that you are any better off purchasing from a high $ breeder as a lesser. There is no excuse for their turning their back on their failure because the paperwork ran out.....


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Sorry that your puppy is having problems 

Most of these guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on. Breeders know that most people are attached to the puppy and don't want to return it.


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

Heidigsd said:


> Sorry that your puppy is having problems
> 
> Most of these guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on. Breeders know that most people are attached to the puppy and don't want to return it.


Not all breeder contracts are wrong. My contract is a puppy replacement, but I can choose to neuter my puppy, return his AKC paperwork to the kennel, and keep him and still get a replacement dog when I feel ready (so if we wanted to wait a while we could). It all depends on the contract. Since the OP lost her pup at such a young age, I would think they would still be able to get a replacement puppy when they are ready. It may not be right now, may not even be 3 litters down the road, may be in year, but it depends on if the contract says to Buyer's discretion or not.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I sell a product online for the last 6 years. If anyone is dissatisfied with it in any way - because I am the maker of that product - I refund 100% with apologies - no questions asked. This, to retain the integrity of my line.... Not here apparently?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Replacement pup is the general rule. Some breeders would refund your purchase price. Most, though, will be replacement.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Well the pup would have probably been fine with FHOs. My golden was diagnosed with severe hip Dysplasia. There was no evidence of it in the lines. The breeder did give me some money toward the surgeries and they didn't have to. I have enough dogs and didn't want another dog, but I would still go and get one from them again because they are good people. The ER vet did tell me that most people would have euthanized because the hips were that bad. 2 surgeries later and he is as good as new. I'm not sure why that option was not given to you? If the contract reads replacement pup then there are not many options.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Wags said:


> Not all breeder contracts are wrong. My contract is a puppy replacement, but I can choose to neuter my puppy, return his AKC paperwork to the kennel, and keep him and still get a replacement dog




^^^ This. Majority of breeders I work with and support allow you to keep your dog, and give you a replacement as long as you spay/neuter the dog with the genetic issue. 

People need to remember these are living breathing things. Genetics are tricky and impossible to predict 100%. It's not like knitting a sweater and accidentally making one arm longer than the other. Good breeders do all they can to stack the deck in favor of good genetics, but sometimes something gets through anyway. For me, it's how the breeder handles the situation. Not about how much money they throw back at me. After all, it's my dog not theirs. It's about how much support they give me. I should feel as though they are going through it with me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sorry about your puppy and your experience. Like Llombardo posted, I don't understand why your vet did not give you alternatives. 

OP was not subjected to the same as if they had gone to a backyard breeder. A backyard breeder would not have bred with health in mind increasing the chances of health risk and it would be highly doubtful that a backyard breeder would have offered to replace a puppy. With the reputable breeder, one could expect by accepting another puppy that was bred with health in mind, that the likelihood of a repeat performance would be far less risky than accepting a replacement puppy from a backyard breeder that does not. Apples and oranges.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Exactly. My only point was to put the responsibility on that end and go from there for solutions.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Sad situation. But there are lots of alternatives to PTS. Hip replacement is one of them. 

We purchased Kayos from an nice breeder and she turned out to have severe HD. We had just moved to Oregon and had her xrayed before I started agility with her. Our new vet, who did not know us well recommended we euthanize immediately. That was totally abhorrent to us. In his defense he did not know us and this was a small farming community. 99 % of people could not afford to treat the condition and PTS was certainly maybe better than a life in pain. We opted to replace her right hip.

Kayos' name is in my siggy line with her breeder. You can see who it was. She supported us through the entire process. She offered a replacement per her contract. We turned it down as we did not need another puppy. Yeah I was angry for a time but we have remained friends and she still loves to hear about Kayos. Kayos is over 13 and going great on the new hip. Cancer will kill her, not bad hips.

Moral of the story. Your contract offers a replacement. That is all the breeder is obligated to. Ethically, I think she should offer a refund but she is not obligated. Most folks don't need or want another puppy at the time. I think most breeders probably know that. 

I think the breeder should be as concerned as Kayos' breeder was and offer support at least. I would probably not go back to that breeder. Not because of the issues but because of the lack of support. 

Breeders should do all they can to insure healthy pups but they are not God. Kayos came from 5 generations of solid hips. **** happens sometimes. 

Mayhem also has one hinky hip, very mild laxity. She too has 5 solid generations behind her. Her breeder does not even have a contract. And I would buy from her again. She is ethical despite no contract. She has no contract because they are difficult to enforce. She offerd to take her back and repalce her. I said no way. Mayhem is fully ably to do agility with some restrictions and more important, she is my buddy. Last summer Mayhem's breeder purchased a puppy back at full price and flew it home to Oklahoma from California. The new family decided they did not want him. Said he was "aggressive". He was evaluated by the breeder and myself and then placed in a home with little kids and is a great dog. "Agreesion" was puppy nipping. 

They are many great breeders out there but every one has had pups with poor health or temper. These are dogs not widgets and life happens sometime. 

I am truly sorry you have lost your puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've seen pictures of puppy xrays online. I'm curious as to how dysplasia is diagnosed when the bones are not even close to being formed and the growth plates have so much room grow?

Was this puppy taken to an ortho for diagnosis? Or did a regular vet diagnose and recommend euthanizing?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> ^^^ This. Majority of breeders I work with and support allow you to keep your dog, and give you a replacement as long as you spay/neuter the dog with the genetic issue.
> 
> People need to remember these are living breathing things. Genetics are tricky and impossible to predict 100%. It's not like knitting a sweater and accidentally making one arm longer than the other. Good breeders do all they can to stack the deck in favor of good genetics, but sometimes something gets through anyway. For me, it's how the breeder handles the situation. Not about how much money they throw back at me. After all, it's my dog not theirs. It's about how much support they give me. I should feel as though they are going through it with me.


I really like the last few sentences of this post-think it means so much when a breeder says Keep me posted about how the dog is doing shows that they genuinely care about the dog and I think it also says something about the breeder as a person


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Glad you brought this up. I was wondering too, can a 4 month old puppy really be dx'd with elbow dysplasia and HD? 

I've seen x rays of normal puppies and their bony joints aren't any where close to being formed and close together.

I'm not a vet but dang with a pup that young being DX'd and having surgery sounds really, really strange.




Jax08 said:


> I've seen pictures of puppy xrays online. I'm curious as to how dysplasia is diagnosed when the bones are not even close to being formed and the growth plates have so much room grow?
> 
> Was this puppy taken to an ortho for diagnosis? Or did a regular vet diagnose and recommend euthanizing?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

PennHip eays can be done at 16 weeks I think. This can show a propensity to develop HD.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

OFA will accept prelim hips at 4 months. Now the question is, was it the vet's opinion or were the x-rays submitted to OFA, Penn Hip, or to an orthopedic specialist for reading. I would not trust a normal every day vet to be able to correctly read the xray. They have not been trained to know what specifically to look for.

It sounds like your contract is pretty standard and up front. Most will not give any type of refund, which is stated directly in the contract. Occasionally some will decide to, to some extent. Sounds like according to the contract, the only thing they are obligated to do is to replace the puppy. It's also been said that even with the best intentions and breedings, genetics can come down from generations back, or even pop up without any history.

I sincerely hope your puppy will be ok, with surgery, supplements, proper exercise and diet.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I suggest reconsidering and getting another puppy. I talked to our breeder extensively about HD. She said she does the best she can, all her dogs come from good lines and are tested but the odds are the occasionally one creeps in despite her intentions. They can't completely get rid of all possible dog ailments and conditions that might come up. I understand you are devastated. I would be, too, but chances are given that it's a good line and a responsible breeder, the next dog will be fine. No, they can't afford to refund on a sold dog. Most breeders have a razor thin profit margin and other jobs to pay for their breeding programs. Very few good breeders make enough money that they can refund like that every time a buyer decides they want a refund.

It's also possible that owner behaviors can cause dysplasia. Pushing down on the rear end for the sit, allowing the dog to jump onto hard surfaces or run on concrete, even diet can play a factor. I'm not saying the OP did that, but it's still within the realm of possibility.

We had a gorgeous WGSL female who had nothing structurally wrong other than late life arthritis. Her sister, which a friend bought based on our recommendation, had both hip and elbow dysplasia. The breeder, who worked in a clinic, ended up doing the surgery there for a discount but the owner still had to pay the costs. The dog lived almost as long as ours did.


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## pentaflex (Feb 2, 2016)

Regarding my original post and subsequent replies...

First, I was a little surprised the admin removed the name of the breeder and my puppy's parents. These are only facts, not accusations or opinions. But no matter, they're not needed to answer my question...

...which was answered. It _is_ standard practice for the guarantee to be replacement only, no refund. And, this breeder is not necessarily irresponsible.

Just to clarify a couple things... I took my puppy directly to a DVM who specializes in orthopedic, neurological, and soft tissue procedures. She is a board certified surgeon and Diplomate American College of Veterinary Surgeons. She performed the surgery to correct UAP which was successful.

I later moved to a different town and took my puppy to a second orthopedic surgeon. She concurred with the first that TPO was not an option and she did offer the alternative of full hip replacement. This she estimated at around $8000 per hip. 

By this time my puppy was exhibiting some behavioral issues and I engaged a professional trainer to work with us several sessions per week in my home. Recovery from the first surgery hampered training but he was making progress. Then, he seemed to lose momentum and regressed. This may have been due to pain he was experiencing. 

As people here know better than I, the first year of a puppy's life is crucial to forming good behavior and good results from positive training. The recovery from double full hip replacement would have set us back considerably. This, coupled with the behavior issues and the expense of fully correcting his dysplasia led to my difficult decision. 

Could things have turned out positively had I made a different decision? Of course. I have to live with my choices and respectfully ask those who reply not to second guess them. You were not there.

Thank you all for the informative replies.


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

pentaflex said:


> Regarding my original post and subsequent replies...
> 
> First, I was a little surprised the admin removed the name of the breeder and my puppy's parents. These are only facts, not accusations or opinions. But no matter, they're not needed to answer my question...
> 
> ...


Hopefully your experiences with the breeder don't set you back. I looked up the breeder and her contract before it was removed by an admin. It was standard practice, she seems like a reputable breeder. I would consider getting a replacement puppy, maybe not right now, but down the line after you've healed from the lost of your first puppy. It may help you heal a little bit too, fill up some of the void in your hearts right now.

Wish you the best with whatever decisions you make.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

As others have said...you signed a contract stating how the breeder handled situations like (through a puppy replacement). For example, You asking for a refund is the same as the breeder refusing to honor replacing a puppy.....in both examples the contract is not being followed through. Definitely a hard thing to go through : ( I'd be happy for a replacement....just one of those things you need to discuss with breeder prior to placing a deposit.

I'm glad you're working towards making your puppy healthy and happy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

d4lilbitz said:


> As others have said...you signed a contract stating how the breeder handled situations like (through a puppy replacement). For example, You asking for a refund is the same as the breeder refusing to honor replacing a puppy.....in both examples the contract is not being followed through. Definitely a hard thing to go through : ( I'd be happy for a replacement....just one of those things you need to discuss with breeder prior to placing a deposit.
> 
> I'm glad you're working towards making your puppy healthy and happy.


The dog was put to sleep. 

To the OP, you made the decision to put your dog to sleep for whatever reasons. How does the breeder feel about that decision? Did they offer to take the pup back at any point?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If on the advice of a vet, someone puts a dog down, which is a tough decision regardless of age, but awful in puppies, I don't think we should question that after the fact. When it won't bring the pup back and only put more doubts into the OP about everything.

I think that yes, the only thing the breeder was required to do was to honor her contract with you, which it sounds like she was willing to do. 

I think the people we go back to, and the people we refer others to, are not the people who just honor their contract, but those that try to make it right. Try to make you happy with the final outcome. Your dog is dead, and there is nothing, no breeder can prevent that from happening totally. But, if you wanted your money back after 8 weeks, because of a serious condition that is for the most part genetic, then what might bring you back, what might make you refer others to her, would have been to replace the purchase price. 

Why do we do the replace the puppy? Because when we have a litter of 7 puppies, we can pretend there was only six, oh well, and now what we sell the six puppies for will have to cover whatever needs to be covered, because that 7th puppy is spoken for. Many breeders are putting most of their own money and all of the money that they get on pups back into their dogs. If they are rolling in dogs, they are also rolling in debt, most likely. And giving you another pup is easier than finding another person to purchase that last pup. 

Most breeders would never admit that they are not rolling in dough. Nobody likes breeders who are all about the money. Breeders are supposed to be more concerned about the right home for the puppy and be willing to practically give the dog away to get him that right home. Or that is what the common public opinion is/pet owner opinion is. So they aren't going to come out and say, 

Ok, I will refund your money. I have a litter due in March, one of those puppies is yours. I will sell it for you in May, and pay you then. You might be perfectly ok with that, but breeders can't say that. If they say that, half of the people out there would do a YELP (whatever that is) and run to the forums and facebook and expose the rotten breeder who agrees to refund the money but won't come up with it until 3-4 months from now. And if that litter doesn't happen, are you will to wait another 6-8 weeks for your money? 

So here again, it is ok for buyers to be all about the money, but breeders no way. Was the puppy defective? Yes. Was the breeder willing to replace the puppy/fulfill her contract? 

Some of us won't touch the money for a pup for two weeks, and then it goes back into the dogs. But we don't hang onto the purchase price of a dog for several months or a year, to pay people back for their dog. 

2 months, definitely a genetic issue, totally. 2 years? Well, then you have to ask some questions, what did you feed, how bad were the hips, when did you first notice issues. You may be willing to replace, but not refund. And the replacement will not have the same health guaranty. Because, in the long run, people will find out if you gave this guy his money back, and you are only willing to give this person a replacement puppy, and that sits foul with many people too. 

I am sorry you are going through this, but it is true, these are living creatures, and there are no perfect dogs out there. So when we buy a pup, have a kid, we sometimes get one with serious issues. With pups bought from breeders, maybe you can get another when you are ready because the first one had some serious issues.


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