# Rose Hall Kennels/other larger GSD breeders



## Hannam (Oct 10, 2015)

I am wondering if anybody has experience with Rose Hall kennels and the dogs they breed. I am also looking at royalaire but like rose hall better.

I am looking for a larger sized shepherd. I want a dog that is going to be 90 lbs or up. We are hoping to do therapy work with him/her and need a bit larger dog than normal but just love shepherds 

Does anybody have any experience with rose hall or have suggestions for other larger sized dog breeders? 

I know why most people don't like larger breeders as it is out of breed standard, but I need that size of dog so please dont waste either of our times


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

May I ask why you need a larger dog for therapy work? I have two dogs that do therapy work and are 80-85 pounds and there isn't a problem.


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## Hannam (Oct 10, 2015)

For them to be safe with my size I need a bigger of a dog for them to help me. I used the wrong word, it is service dog work that i would be looking at.


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## familydag5 (Jan 24, 2015)

I have a good friend who has a Royalaire dog, the list of health issues he has goes on and on and on and ....


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

The service dogs I think the OP is talking about are for people with physical disabilities, They are required to provide balance assistance and assist an often adult person to rise or steady themselves. My aunt has one (it's a 130 lbs chocolate lab mix) and he needs to be able to help her out of bed and her wheel chair (she's close to 200 lbs). Can't help with Rose Hall kennels though as we are in Canada.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

No experience with Rosehall,I do know two families with Royalair dogs that are happy with their selections.No health problems like the unfortunate friend of familydag5 above.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MishkasMom said:


> The service dogs I think the OP is talking about are for people with physical disabilities, They are required to provide balance assistance and assist an often adult person to rise or steady themselves. My aunt has one (it's a 130 lbs chocolate lab mix) and he needs to be able to help her out of bed and her wheel chair (she's close to 200 lbs). Can't help with Rose Hall kennels though as we are in Canada.


I took in a bigger lab after his owner died. He was about 120 pounds and trained as a mobility dog. I would wash dishes and he stood behind me, it took me a minute go figure out what he was doing but it seems that he was holding me up, even though I didn't need any help. He never lost that training he got. Awesome dog


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Yeah it's just amazing, these dogs are something else for sure, if it wasn't for Chess(my aunts dog) she wouldn't be able to stay in her house (she has MS), build like a tank but so gentle. Best of luck to the OP


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hannam said:


> I am wondering if anybody has experience with Rose Hall kennels and the dogs they breed. I am also looking at royalaire but like rose hall better.
> 
> I am looking for a larger sized shepherd. I want a dog that is going to be 90 lbs or up. We are hoping to do therapy work with him/her and need a bit larger dog than normal but just love shepherds
> 
> ...


 If I was going to go big, it would be Royalair without question. And just an FYI most of Rosehalls dogs go back to Royalair, that's where the foundation came from.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

brace and support dogs need to be strong and substantial, which comes in any size still within standard .

there are over size gsd which have over angulation, can be loose ligamented, could be narrow and slab sided , and because there is a deliberate deviation there could be 
lots to be desired in the temperament department.

so , went to site, oh no! not the Old fashioned , straight backed spiel again , not the mellow , low drive being pushed again , not the more information about payments , then about the dogs again Rosehall Kennel calm tempered German Shepherd puppies for sale. This is our information page for our current price, warranty, shipping and deposit details.

if you want a dog that size that fits that description get a Leonberger --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yQEk0lHzgE narration is hoky and shows a Newfoundland , not a Landseer variant which is black and white when mentioning the 'breeds' that went in to the making of the Leonberger.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Agree with Carmen. 

Better off getting a large breed that was *intended* to be a large breed, from the start.

Will stack the odds in favor of a serviceable companion with the proper structure and temperament for the work required.




carmspack said:


> brace and support dogs need to be strong and substantial, which comes in any size still within standard .
> 
> there are over size gsd which have over angulation, can be loose ligamented, could be narrow and slab sided , and because there is a deliberate deviation there could be
> lots to be desired in the temperament department.
> ...


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Hannam said:


> For them to be safe with my size I need a bigger of a dog for them to help me. I used the wrong word, it is service dog work that i would be looking at.


Having had Old English Sheepdogs for years, they make great support dogs for mobility and strength. I have seen smaller females be great for MS affected women. A well-bred male is 100 lbs. or so. When I lifted my 9 week old GSD puppy, he felt way lighter than an OES puppy of the same age. OES are much heavier of bone.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dare I say King Shepherd??

Giant Shepherd Breeders: Are you King Shepherd breeders / are your dogs King Shepherds / King Sized German Shepherds?

Looks like a GSD but is not ... not everyone "needs" a "real" GSD ...just saying.


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## kiwixlshepherd (Jun 19, 2014)

I wondered if any breeders have larger dogs with a stable temperament, plenty of energy and suitable for protection as well?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

carmspack said:


> .... if you want a dog that size that fits that description get a Leonberger....


 I think that's a great idea, Kiwixlshepherd, take a look at Leonbergers if you can. They aren't common, but they're around. 

I volunteered at a nursing home for a while alongside a woman who owned two Leonbergers. Both of them did therapy work, and then she added assistance (service) tasks to their training. They were both absolutely fantastic for the job. Stable, pleasant, solid. 

I wish I had taken pictures of them, but we never took any - privacy reasons & out of respect for the residents.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

kiwixlshepherd said:


> I wondered if any breeders have larger dogs with a stable temperament, plenty of energy and suitable for protection as well?


I would say not exactly.  

There are breeder that have true WL dogs that are in the 85 to 90 lb range however slightly OS dogs.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I have met one Rose Hall dog (so not a huge sampling) - but he is VERY big (130 lbs at 16 months) and so conformationally INCORRECT, that by the time he is fully trained as a mobility assistance dog, I have no doubt his rear will give and he will be useless.

I feel bad for people who are somehow convinced these dogs make good mobility dogs - IF THE DOG CAN'T MOVE ITSELF how does it help move a person?

Go with a Leo (I have one, they are amazing) or get a strong Shepherd bred for service WITHIN the standard - Look for a breeder takes into account both the physical and mental strength of the dog. Don't shy away from working lines, there are many who are active service dogs and good at their job. Not all working lines are bred for sport


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Hannam said:


> For them to be safe with my size I need a bigger of a dog for them to help me. I used the wrong word, it is service dog work that i would be looking at.


Hi Hannam. Maybe have a look at King Shepherds.
*King Shepherd - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

They look like nice, even tempered and sturdy dogs.


Good luck and take care.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Dare I say King Shepherd??
> 
> Giant Shepherd Breeders: Are you King Shepherd breeders / are your dogs King Shepherds / King Sized German Shepherds?
> 
> Looks like a GSD but is not ... not everyone "needs" a "real" GSD ...just saying.


OMGosh Chip. I didn't see your post.
I said King Shepherd too.

They look like awesome dogs.
Over-sized GSDs can grow to be as large as King Shepherds 90-120 lbs.

Hmmmmmmmmmm Like your dog and mine too. : )


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> I would say not exactly.
> 
> There are breeder that have true WL dogs that are in the 85 to 90 lb range however slightly OS dogs.


 I have a WL male who is 90-95 lbs. I can with confidence say he could move a large man. I am not a tiny woman and he tosses me like a toy if I give him any leverage. He could have easily provided mobility assistance for someone much bigger then me.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> I have a WL male who is 90-95 lbs. I can with confidence say he could move a large man. I am not a tiny woman and he tosses me like a toy if I give him any leverage. He could have easily provided mobility assistance for someone much bigger then me.


Same - my home bred male. His mom is 60 lbs, dad is 75 lbs. He is 16 months old and 87 lbs. Not the drive for a mobility dog, WAY too high. But it is totally possible to find a well bred dog, who is a little large, but correct conformation and temperament/drive/energy suited to this work.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Findlay said:


> OMGosh Chip. I didn't see your post.
> I said King Shepherd too.
> 
> They look like awesome dogs.
> ...


Yes big dogs! They look like GSD's but are not, different temperament, not everyone is prepared to deal with the "real" thing if the road gets ... "bumpy." 

The females are about 120, the males much larger. And as far as the joints and back thing? Well a good puppy is the goal of finding a good breeder isn't it??

The King's aren't my thing but I'm not "offended" that they exist. But then ... I'm an American Band Dawg guy also. So I got a thing for different.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

As Sabis noted, most Rosehall dogs go back to Royalair. I like Royalair dogs a lot. I've currently got two. My 1st, now deceased, lived past 13. Mine have all been structurally sound, temperamentally solid, intelligent & discerning, healthy & active. Others I know that have them have overwhelmingly had similar, happy experiences. like myself many return for 2nd, 3rd & 4th GSDs.

IF I lived in or around TN Rosehall would probably be among my top choices.

I don't see any real advantage to Kings or Shilohs vs simply acquiring an oversized GSD. Potentially there are disadvantages. I looked into both breeds many years ago. I felt that both breeds had more health problems than well bred oversized GSDs. Too often, temperaments were often either questionable or were excessively soft.

Leonbergers? OES? Why not Great Danes, Irish Wolfhounds, Newfoundlands, Tibetan Mastiffs, Neos etc??? IF someone is seeking a GSD, including oversized GSDs, these other breeds -however worthy & admirable they are- really aren't what the person wants. I will never understand why these unsolicited recommendations are just tossed out there.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I thought King Shepherds where crossed with working line Great Pyrenees to increase aggression.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Leonbergers? OES? Why not Great Danes, Irish Wolfhounds, Newfoundlands, Tibetan Mastiffs, Neos etc??? IF someone is seeking a GSD, including oversized GSDs, these other breeds -however worthy & admirable they are- really aren't what the person wants. I will never understand why these unsolicited recommendations are just tossed out there"

because my friend , some care deeply about the future of the breed . 
Once again there are standards and expectations , a vision of an athletic , loyal , hardy breed of dog , at the mention of the words GSD.

Whims of the "market" should not drive the direction of the breed.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

OP, send me a pm.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Once again there are standards and expectations , a vision of an athletic , loyal , hardy breed of dog , at the mention of the words GSD.
> 
> Whims of the "market" should not drive the direction of the breed.


Carmen, I agree. While I prefer a taller dog, that preference isn't nearly as important as an intelligent, discerning, robust, biddable, long lived dog with judgment, character & personality. Given my excellent experiences with Royalair GSDs, I'd be surprised if Rosehall GSDs don't exemplify those characteristics.

True working dogs often show considerable variation in conformation, including size. This is true of the historic GSD. For many, many years a common complaint among show & sports people was that only oversized GSDs could succeed due to an unfair preference for larger, including out of standard GSDs. The complaints were legitimate but it's obvious that the preference for larger GSDs isn't restricted solely to us crazeee pet people. 

I think the honest, ethical, smart approach would have been to adjust the current standard & recognize the potential value of larger GSDs. Since I don't show or participate in SchH/IPO, it doesn't matter to me, but again, the appeal of larger GSDs extends beyond those seeking companion dogs & 'market whims'.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> I have a WL male who is 90-95 lbs. I can with confidence say he could move a large man. I am not a tiny woman and he tosses me like a toy if I give him any leverage. He could have easily provided mobility assistance for someone much bigger then me.


I only "recently" became aware of them! They sound cool to me! But an OS WL GSD is an OS WL GSD!

Some people aren't look for a WL dog, they just want a dog that "looks" like a GSD not a challenge to there skill set. If "looks like" works for them ... I say go for it! Fewer WL fails in shelters.

Just saying


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

"Given my excellent experiences with Royalair GSDs, I'd be surprised if Rosehall GSDs don't exemplify those characteristics"

Except that they're not keeping to the standards Royalair set. ** Please, let's keep the rest to PM. ADMIN**

Royalair did it first and they continue to do it best. If I was going to go big, there would be no other considered.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ruby said "True working dogs often show considerable variation in conformation, including size. This is true of the historic GSD. "

And this is bad how? 
Firstly I don't know what you mean by "true" .
Secondly you mention the historic GSD . Exactly. 
The breed was cobbled together from 4 main regional groups (more or less) which each had variations in size, coat, ear carriage , colour , and inner-makings character.
Recognition of this and using this , keeping things in balance , makes the breed VERSATILE and utilitarian , multi functional.
You need to keep diversity AND work within the parameters of a standard.

Cookie cutter -- not good . 

Two-parter , Ruby you said "For many, many years a common complaint among show & sports people was that only oversized GSDs could succeed due to an unfair preference for larger, including out of standard GSDs"

Whose preference for larger? The judges? The buyers?
Size was creeping up and so judges would bring out the yard stick to physically measure them and make notes on the assessment cards .
Okay - maybe it's early morning brain fog but I am lost here . Part one you say every one is complaining about x-large sized dogs were given an unfair advantage , part two you say "The complaints were legitimate but it's obvious that the preference for larger GSDs isn't restricted solely to us crazeee pet people. " 
So it is wrong --- the complaints are legitimate -- resolution would be penalty for out of standard size , NOT , "honest, ethical, smart approach would have been to adjust the current standard " NOT adjust the standard which would negate the reason for having a standard at all.

The breed needs to be rugged and athletic .


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Ruby said "True working dogs often show considerable variation in conformation, including size. This is true of the historic GSD. "
> 
> And this is bad how?
> Firstly I don't know what you mean by "true" .
> ...


The restriction of size, coat color and other fundamental factors has ruined the genetic diversity so badly needed in this bred. Yes, 4 "breeds" blended to make the German shepherd and Horand was the "ideal" blend - 1/4 of all the 4. Was he the perfect German shepherd? From a genetic standpoint yes. From the offspring he produced - Probably not. Read the history of the breed. What haas happened over the past 30+ years is a total breakdown of balanced bloodlines by poor breeding practices. The results of such breeding has resulted in a multitude of diseases and disorders - many that are traced back to one of the original breeding lines. If you separate the lines and intentionally concentrate on one of the four you will eventually reduce what the original breed was built upon. Pick a trait, any trait, and trace it back to the original bloodlines. Each bloodline contributed something in particular. You fiddle with the mix and things change. So the original German shepherds carried a multitude of genetic influence from 4 different breeds. And height, weight, coat type, etc. can and will vary until the genes of that particular trait is modified and there is a reduction in range of possibilities in the genetic combinations. And once you reduce the range of expression in genes, you have created a bottleneck in the genetics of the breed. So instead of a more restrictive standard - if you really serious about saving the breed, a revised standard should include all the heights, weights, coat colors, eye color, etc to increase the genetic pool and try to balance the bloodlines back to the 4 original lines.
Thats about all I got to say about that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Doc said:


> to increase the genetic pool and try to balance the bloodlines back to the 4 original lines.
> Thats about all I got to say about that.


Well you could tell those of us that don't know what those 4 original lines or dogs were??


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What Doc said


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

What Doc said is great if all breeders bred to better the breed and not just for specific traits. The only problem is breeders will breed for what sells which in the US seems to be size. If the standard were to be removed the average size of GSD would grow. In twenty or thirty years the average size would increase to the point it would be hard to recognize it as a GSD at all. Ideally a great idea just not practical when you add the human equation into it. Humans need limits otherwise they always seek extremes.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

J and J M said:


> What Doc said is great if all breeders bred to better the breed and not just for specific traits. The only problem is breeders will breed for what sells which in the US seems to be size. If the standard were to be removed the average size of GSD would grow. In twenty or thirty years the average size would increase to the point it would be hard to recognize it as a GSD at all. Ideally a great idea just not practical when you add the human equation into it. Humans need limits otherwise they always seek extremes.


I understand what you're saying,but do you think a strict breed standard is also an extreme?A small gene pool creates problems for every life form.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

dogma13 said:


> I understand what you're saying,but do you think a strict breed standard is also an extreme?A small gene pool creates problems for every life form.


I think things would be better if standards were built upon proportions instead of actual numbers. Of course, some Judges ignore height, weight, etc when awarding ribbons. (Money, greed, and pride trumps any standard) I think a dog should be proportional - not considered "non-standard" if it falls outside of a specific range of numbers. Even Max changed his original standard to include "taller" dogs at one point.
There is a great myth that all "over-sized" dogs are fat, lazy, and useless. This myth is taken as truth in many instances. If these"couch potato" German shepherds are useless and are made up of the same foundational genetic material as all German shepherds, then there is a flaw in their logic. These "bad, horrible" examples of a German shepherds only reflect the polar opposite of what many self proclaimed experts consider the "real" German shepherd. Even old Max himself warned us about messing with the genetics of his breed when he wrote that the breed should not contain more than 30% Thuringer bloodlines. He went on to report that dogs that have more are more difficult to handle and control. 
With all this in mind, one has to ask themselves, do I want a German shepherd that is close to the original genetic make of the breed or do I want what has been manipulated over the past 30+ years of selfish breeding practices that are used to win shows and titles and make an owner wealthy.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what is wrong is dogs bred for a market which desires over size deliberately , meanwhile blindly neglecting all other aspects . PET market . On purpose . Which is all about the $$$$.

Doc , I know you love the oversize , pointing them out to be special "Olde" type , (NOT)
in your book.

Meanwhile in all the venues where a good GSD can participate these big dogs , come on , are bred for pet market , are not to be seen. So how does that respect the history and the raison d'etre ?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

carmspack said:


> what is wrong is dogs bred for a market which desires over size deliberately , meanwhile blindly neglecting all other aspects . PET market . On purpose . Which is all about the $$$$.
> 
> Doc , I know you love the oversize , pointing them out to be special "Olde" type , (NOT)
> in your book.
> ...


And its not about the money in the show ring or so called "working" lines?? Come on Carmspak.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

The four foundational breeds (from four distinct regions in Germany after the unification of 1871)

Swabian
Saxony/Brunswick
Thuringian


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thuringian (trophy dogs) Wurttemberger (shepherd dogs) , Swabian (shepherd dogs) and 4th Swabian service dogs (guard)


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Thuringian were yard dogs- bred to chase thieves and squatters off the estates of the rich. Quick to bite, quick to chase. React before thinking.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and yet Horand was Thuringian from the Wachsmuth breeder who was ground zero , providing Thuringian stock for many herders . It was this group that had the desirable upright pricked ears. 
von Stephanitz wasn't the best of breeders . He was a great leader able to organize and influence .
The herders had kept on warning him about linebreeding on the Thurigian , finally taking advice from "So" Eislen - von der Krone herding dogs and replaced Hektor/Horand with Audifax . Anton "So" Eislen had more to do with the breed as he was already integrating Wurttemberg and Swabian service (taller and tough) and Swabian herding dogs before von Stephanitz came onto the scene.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

*for chip*

For Chip The 4 main originating types of land race (breed-type) dogs used to form the German Shepherd 

Northern hunting and herding dogs
Examples: Greif (herding type) 
Phylax v Elau (hunting type) 
Lady of Arizona (GSD first herding champion) 

Thuringian yard dogs (terrier type) 
Examples: Lotte and Lene from Sparwasser kennels 
To produce functional herding dogs Thuringian dogs were 
crossed with herding dogs to sharpen and intensify (and add 
prick ears) herding characteristics According to Stephanitz the 
'pure' Thuringian was 'untrainable' and not at all appropriate 
for herding work 

Saxony/Brunswick (Old Blood) herding dogs 
from, but not limited to, central Germany and the river valleys 
Useful for herding large numbers of sheep
Examples: Schafermadchen and Stoppelhoffer 
This is where much of the 'blue' and 'liver' genetics come from
Think something that looks a lot like an Australian Cattle Dog

Swabian/Wurttemberger (Old Blood) herding dogs 
Swabian and Wurttemberger are not two different types, Swabian is 
the name used for these dogs before 1806 when the Counts of 
Wurttemberg were raised to the status of Prince and renamed the 
region after themselves. Region included the Northern Alps, the Jura 
mountains. This is where the 'plush' coat comes from and the genetics 
producing larger size. Dogs noted for flexibility in herding skills--goats, 
sheep, cows, oxen, horses, pigs, even geese handled, often in mixed 
groups. After WWI Stephanitz noted that these dogs were particularly 
effective 'ambulance' (search and rescue) dogs during the war 
Examples: Pollux 
Mores and Carex v Pleiningen
Madame v d Krone 
Audifax and Lena v d Krone

Other individual 'land race' types were added to the breed in the beginning, Brandenberg yard dogs and even a collie (a dog named Kitty), just to name a couple, but not systematically, and not in any number.

Saxony/Brunswick and Swabian/Wurttemberger were together referred to as 'Old Blood' or 'Old Breed' and Stephanitz found records of them going back 800 years (900 now) in his lifetime. The verbal records of the old Master Shepherds took them back more than 1,000 years. 

khawk


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

This is all really interesting!Thanks Carmen,Doc,and khawk for taking the time for the history lessonI'm inspired to do some digging myself and learn more.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

khawk said:


> For Chip The 4 main originating types of land race (breed-type) dogs used to form the German Shepherd
> 
> Northern hunting and herding dogs
> Examples: Greif (herding type)
> ...


Hey thanks. I searched these two for kicks and landed here:
The History of the White Swiss Shepherd

Interesting history thanks for the breakdown. Kinda of a grab bag of goals/dogs. Thuringia's line sounds like it had some interesting dogs in it. I like that dog for some reason.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Doc said:


> Thuringian were yard dogs- bred to chase thieves and squatters off the estates of the rich. Quick to bite, quick to chase. React before thinking.


LOL, that sounds like a Cigar and Liqueur filled choice to me?? Sorta like:










But history shows they got it right!


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## Rachel8465 (Jan 30, 2015)

Hi Hannam, I got our dog Sam from Rosehall in January. I visited their kennel and spoke with them extensively before choosing them. Our dog Sam is wonderful with no health problems at all. He is very large, probably 95 lbs now if I had to guess, but he doesn't appear monstrous or disproportionate. Feel free to PM me about Rosehall. 

Rachel


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Doc said:


> And its not about the money in the show ring or so called "working" lines?? Come on Carmspak.


Come on, doc. Stop using "well they're an extreme too" as a defense for these extreme breeding programs. You take one step of the process that created our breed and took it to an extreme. ALL of these extremes are bad. The oversize "couch potato" (as you put it) is an extreme. Show me one oversize breeder who's complete tag line and "brag line" isn't the darn size of their dogs. That every "happy review" doesn't start with the dogs darn size and how proud the owner is of its size. How every "brag" about their breeding stock doesn't come down to its darn size. You propose constantly that the sport ruined the breed. That the crazy "sleeve monsters" are ruining the breed. The oversize breeding programs are the same. They are their own mess, their own evil, their own obsession with unbalance. They are just as unbalanced and just as dangerous to the breed as the crazy sport dog that will chase a ball off a cliff, or the protection dog that has to be muzzled because it bites everything and is too sharp. They are ALL the same.

OP, I'm sure you've made up your mind. But I'll try a plea, please support a breeder that focuses on balance. That has a program that hasn't taken one aspect of the breed and focused soley on it, forgoing all others. Find one that's breeding dogs with focus on maintaining the social dog that can pal around with the family but also maintains what is so great about this breed, hunt drive, fight drive, nerve strength, calm off switch, athletic, healthy, APPROPRIATE level of suspicion (I've met dogs from the west coast over sized breeders. The nerve strength was terrible when tested, owners could not do what they hoped with them). The breeder that strives to find a balance in all those things by testing and working their dogs to prove it, not just quoting some history and picking the parts of history that they like most, and then telling you how much their dog weighs or how great it is with a ball (threw that in for you, Doc ;-)). Find that breeder who does it all, who is breeding the jack of all trades (like this breed was supposed to always stay), and isn't just breeding for 1 thing....size being the example here, but crazy prey drive, out of balance fight drive, and any other extreme would also fit here. 

Good luck, op. Hope you find what you're looking for.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

^^^^^^AMEN^^^^^ :thumbup:


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