# Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biting.



## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

So my 5 1/2 month old, Link has now decided that he should stop right infront of us when we are walking him and if you try to keep going he bites at our feet. It is very frustrating and annoying. We have tried saying "leave it" and using a negative marker (which we learnt in Puppy class). He doesn't do it on the whole walk only parts of it. We start a Level 1 Beginner Class on June 10th but was wondering if anyone had any suggestions in the mean time.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

LOL Brady still stops in front of us (no biting)
hhe'll grow out of it eventually just say NO bites


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## mom of ty (May 4, 2008)

My Ty dose it and he is only 12 weeks old but we say no and he stops then grabs my socks and runs like mad, its so funny and i know i shouldnt laught but he so cute when he runs and trys to hide, the tail gives it away where its going like crazy you can hear it banging on the floor


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Just keep walking he will figure out how to get out of your way and the biting will stop when he gets pushed aside a few times and realizes that his game is not being rewarded.


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## bethd (May 23, 2006)

Use more tension on the leash attached to the collar to hold his head up and away from your feet and then walk in the opposite direction, saying "heel" or "come", don't look back, just keep going. If he catches up and gets in front of you, turn to another direction saying "heel" or "come".

This turns it from a fun attack on mom's feet into a WALK with you in charge.


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## dearraine (Apr 6, 2007)

My dog does this too. I'm going to use MaxBaby's suggestion. 

What I have been doing is always have a pocket full of treats and my clicker with me. When she starts that nonsense, I give her the down command to establish control and make her wait in a down. Then i start walking again. I'm probably sending mixed signals.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Maybe mixed signals if you rewarded the down, then you might be chaining the behavior. step in front of mom- lay down - reward- walk- step in front of mom-laydown- REWARD- walk. on and on.....


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

Thanks, I will try shortening up the leash and changing directions. He is getting stronger by the day so want to stop this as soon as possible. Like I said we are counting down the days until Obedience.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

Reich does that to hubby. No clue why.

When I'm walking her and she stops or gets distracted I just give a 'leave it' or 'go!', and we're off.


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## moribelle (May 20, 2008)

with a GS, it's been my experience that a "dominance" issue is arising.
your hubby may have to take puppy to the ground and lay on him once or twice.
my 5mo. old "ankle bit" me, and brought blood! I called the breeder, and sure enough, TAKE HIM DOWN! (I had to do it twice, then he understood he was second after me). Good luck!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*

This is very typical puppy behavior for a gsd. They are mouthy and will treat people as a chew toy unless they are taught otherwise. I prefer to use positive reinforcement, redirection and counter conditioning as the foundation for my training. The alpha roll (mentioned above) is *VERY* strongly discouraged by professional trainers these days. The best way to show your dog that you're the leader is to have clear expectations, be consistent and be fair in your treatment.


I have had three very high drive dogs in a row (including foster dogs) and all have gotten overexcited on walks and jumped on me or grabbed my clothing or feet. I stop and turn the other direction and completely ignore them until they stop. Since they are doing it to get your attention this usually works to stop the behavior. Then I give them a command and continue redirecting them until we're walking nicely together again. With Rafi I've trained him to carry a ball on his walk and when he gets excited he can just take it out on his ball. That works really well.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*



> Originally Posted By: moribellewith a GS, it's been my experience that a "dominance" issue is arising.
> your hubby may have to take puppy to the ground and lay on him once or twice.
> my 5mo. old "ankle bit" me, and brought blood! I called the breeder, and sure enough, TAKE HIM DOWN! (I had to do it twice, then he understood he was second after me). Good luck!


I've had and fostered unruly Rottweilers, Cane Corsos, mutts of all walks, and GSDs.

I've never had to 'take down' a pup or dog. And if my husband ever tried it, I'd roll his ass into submission.

This whole rolling deal started because people THOUGHT they witnessed dominant canines roll other lower ranking canines.

The truth of the matter is that the submissive dog/wolf rolls ITSELF for the dominant one.

Alphas rarely resort to physical force...that type of thing takes place at the lower end of the totem pole.

I've simply told hubby it's time for him to start working with her more one on one. He's out of town sunday through thursday every week....she may be unsure of his position.


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## moribelle (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*

The dominance training method used is done so by professional trainers worldwide. The ALPHA roll , as you put it, is used in the circle I travel in. Which stretches to Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, as well as in the US.
Perhaps it's a difference of K-9's vs. the more domestic types of GS's you seem to be dealing with. Are you familiar with the breeding of K-9'S? 
The particular trainers I've worked with train and ship police dogs, personal protection dogs, drug dogs, cadaver dogs, all over the world, and these dogs are renowned for their obedience, intelligence, loyalty, and far superior communication skills with their handler. When I said "take him down", it's not something that is done in a cruel manner, or even forceful. But meaningful. There is a difference, perhaps you should research it more.
I wish you luck in your endeavors.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*

If this is just happening just when you are walking him, maybe you could try playing some ball or some other game before you go on the walk. He might be a little more chilled out and less likely to want to do the ankle biting.

Just a thought


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*



> Originally Posted By: moribelleThe dominance training method used is done so by professional trainers worldwide. The ALPHA roll , as you put it, is used in the circle I travel in. Which stretches to Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, as well as in the US.
> Perhaps it's a difference of K-9's vs. the more domestic types of GS's you seem to be dealing with. Are you familiar with the breeding of K-9'S?


No. It is a difference of knowledge, skill, and "enlightenment" on the part of the trainer. Most professional trainers have seen the light in terms of not only the fact that alpha rolling is unnecessary, but completely inappropriate behavior on the part of the owner, and a great way to cause severe damage to the dog/owner relationship. But of course, there are still a few hold outs who cling to these outdated methods of training and managing dogs.

Either way, it has everything to do with the trainer, and nothing to do with the type of dog.

The alpha roll is a technique developed decades ago, based upon research into wolf pack behavior which has since been proven to be erroneous. Wolves and dogs do NOT go around alpha rolling one another. The submissive animal will roll himself over to show submission. This is very different from the dominant one forcing a roll, which is what trainers who advocate this method do.

As far as dominance, it is a VERY rare dog (even in the hard, high drive "K9" types) who has such a dominant personality that it will challenge it's owner and needs constant rank adjustments and management. People seem very quick to jump on the "He's trying to dominate you!" bandwagon, when in 99% of the cases that is NOT what is happening.

Perfectly normal adolescent dog behavior is very often misinterpreted as dominance. And even in those cases where a dominance issue actually exists, it is very rarely a result of having a "dominant dog" and most often the result of the owner making huge mistakes in the raising and training of the dog, essentially eroding away their own dominance and leaving the dog in a state of confusion as to whether or not the owner is in charge, or is worthy of being in charge.

The vast majority of cases of rank problems with dogs are not because the dog WANTS to be in charge, but because he is receiving mixed signals from his owners about who is in charge. Placed in that situation, most dogs will try to pull rank. But this isn't because they want to, it's because a lack of leadership on the part of their owners forces them to. They do it because their natural need for a clear heirarchy is so strong that when placed in a situation where the heirarchy is unclear, trying to take over the top position is the only way for them to know who is in the top position. Very few dogs truly want that top position, but it is far more stressful for them to not know who has that position. They really just can't cope with a lack of clear heirarchy, and when the owner doesn't make that heiarchy clear, the dog has to do what he can to do it himself.

When this happens, it is a result of major relationship issues within the household and those stem from a lack of clear, consistent and fair leadership on the part of the humans involved. And the only way to fix it is to address those issues. An alpha roll isn't going to do it. What it is going to do is either get someone bit or, as happens in most cases, further damage the relationship.... destroying trust between dog and handler, and showing the dog that the human is even more unfit for leadership than the dog originally thought because good leaders worthy of following are consistent and firm, but also fair. They do not go around beating up their subordinates and forcing them into submission in inappropriate circumstances, which is exactly how a dog views an alpha roll.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Back to the originally scheduled program.....



> Originally Posted By: Link's MomSo my 5 1/2 month old, Link has now decided that he should stop right infront of us when we are walking him and if you try to keep going he bites at our feet. It is very frustrating and annoying. We have tried saying "leave it" and using a negative marker (which we learnt in Puppy class). He doesn't do it on the whole walk only parts of it. We start a Level 1 Beginner Class on June 10th but was wondering if anyone had any suggestions in the mean time.


Pretty normal puppy behavior. He wants to play, and since a pup's natural inclination is to play with people the same way he would with other dogs, that means biting and wrestling. Heck, our adult dogs often grab and chase at one another's feet when playing. You're feet are right there, and they're moving.. perfect target!

The obedience classes will help, as they will help show him and you how to mold a more appropriate walking on leash behavior. As it is now, he doesn't know what's expected of him or what he should be doing, so he's going with what comes most natural and seems most fun.

In the mean time, since it will take him a while to learn what behavior he should do, I would suggest finding something to redirect him too when he gets playful. When we have puppies, we always make sure there is a tug toy of some sort within arm's reach, so we can redirect them when they start getting the inkling to chew or bite something they shouldn't. That goes for taking walks too. They can't nip at our feet, or chew on the leash, if their mouth is already full of a "puppy pacifier". Try taking a toy with you on walks to keep him occupied and redirect him off your feet when he gets in play mode.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: moribelleThe dominance training method used is done so by professional trainers worldwide. The ALPHA roll , as you put it, is used in the circle I travel in. Which stretches to Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, as well as in the US.
> ...


I love this response.
I'm ready to start a Chris Wild fan club


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

Thanks everyone. I think today i will try taking a toy with us and see if that helps. If not tomorrow will try to sap some of his energy by playing ball in the back yard.


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

Hey guys just got back from our walk. Had Link play some fetch in the backyard before we went then went for a shorter walk. He looked at my feet a couple of times but gave him the negative marker (uh uhhhh, learnt that at puppy class at PetSmart) and he left my feet alone. Glad I asked you guys. It was getting really frustrating. I am thinking we will have to go earlier in the morning because it was pretty hot out there and he is now panting very quickly. Thanks again.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm glad it went well!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

[/quote]
I love this response.
I'm ready to start a Chris Wild fan club







[/quote]

She already has one!!!









I have never read anything Chris says that I disagreed with. 

As for the alpha roll that moribelle's circle of contacts uses - maybe they will see the light one day. 

Link's mom keep doing it if it is working.


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## moribelle (May 20, 2008)

You should, it was posted twice in case we didn't get it the first time. Or perhaps she felt she left something out. Either way, I wish you only the best of luck, whatever method you choose. I try to tell people to use what ever is working for them, as every case is different, just like a mother training her child. Arguing about this is silly and non-productive and just plain confusing for someone trying to just solve their problem and getting too much input. just go with your instincts, and I'm sure you will be fine.


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## moribelle (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*

As an administrator, I would expect less of an opinionated response from you, in the order of exercising and directing the real discussion in a constructive manner. It appears no one, from your point of view, has anything of value to input on this thread, unless they agree with you. While we may disagree, there is no need to pummel others input and opinions, I certainly haven't done that to yours. I've merely expressed my ideas, experiences and opinions. And you did that too, in the beginning.
If you expect others to receive your opinions and consider them, you must also be willing to consider and receive opinions and experiences from others. Otherwise, that pretty much invalidates your opinion and statements, and only appears argumentative in the attempt to be right.
An administrator mediates to direct a discussion in a positive manner, not to inflame the crowd, and not the negative one I've just experienced here. Disappointing.
I hope you have a better day tomorrow.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*



> Originally Posted By: moribelleThe dominance training method used is done so by professional trainers worldwide. The ALPHA roll , as you put it, is used in the circle I travel in. Which stretches to Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, as well as in the US.


who do you train with? Which trainers still advocate the alpha roll?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*



> Originally Posted By: moribelle
> I hope you have a better day tomorrow.


do you really?
your exits seem a bit condescending.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*

<span style="color: #3333FF">moribelle</span>, no one is attacking you they are expressing opinion. Chris Wild is allowed as a member of this board to express her opinion, just like any other Admin, Mod or member. 

If people don't agree with you that is life. If you want to advocate Alpha Roll you have the right to do so, just as people who use different methods have a right to post their training philosphy to rebut the Alpha Roll and some of the older harsher training methods. 

Let's keep this to training and stop the personal swipes at one another.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Wisc.Tiger - Admin</span>


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*



> Originally Posted By: moribelleAs an administrator, I would expect less of an opinionated response from you, in the order of exercising and directing the real discussion in a constructive manner. It appears no one, from your point of view, has anything of value to input on this thread, unless they agree with you. While we may disagree, there is no need to pummel others input and opinions, I certainly haven't done that to yours. I've merely expressed my ideas, experiences and opinions. And you did that too, in the beginning.
> If you expect others to receive your opinions and consider them, you must also be willing to consider and receive opinions and experiences from others. Otherwise, that pretty much invalidates your opinion and statements, and only appears argumentative in the attempt to be right.
> An administrator mediates to direct a discussion in a positive manner, not to inflame the crowd, and not the negative one I've just experienced here. Disappointing.
> I hope you have a better day tomorrow.


So, because I'm an Admin I'm not allowed to express my opinion? Or am I allowed to express it only when it agrees with others? Or can I disagree, but only as long as I don't do it as strongly as others express their opinions and I make sure my opinions are toned down and weak compared to everyone else?

I think perhaps being new to the board, you are unfamiliar with the roles Moderators and Administrators have here, and the fact that their duties as such have no impact on their freedom to express opinions on anything they would like, same as any other member of the board.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*

In my opinion I think it is part of an Administrators duties to step in when potentially dangerous advice is being given.

Attempt to roll the wrong dog and not have the "skills" to back it up and be prepared to lose a body part or two.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*



> Originally Posted By: Betty101In my opinion I think it is part of an Administrators duties to step in when potentially dangerous advice is being given.


I agree. 
Chris, your explanation of the leadership situation could be re-written substituting the word "horse" for "dog". It is exactly the same. What I learned with horses is that they also do not want to be in charge but will step up if they feel you are not up to the task. When you are a firm consistant leader _in their eyes_ they relax and are much happier. The key is to learn enough about how they behave and learn to be that leader for them. It doesn't really matter what _you_ think being a leader means, what matters is what being a leader means to the one who must decide if you're worthy enough to follow or not. I am learning to be a leader with my dog just like I had to learn it with my horses, but using a different set of strategies because dogs and horses are not the same. 
I also noticed that when Lucy is very excited to see us she will grab any toy nearby- I saw someone else post that their dog did that. It really seems to help redirect her from the behaviors like jumping on us and nipping. It started after I read about it on this board and tried offering her a toy when we let her out of her crate in the morning- it really helped and she liked it so much she does it herself now. It's so cute


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## moribelle (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*

I rest my case.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Trying to stop us from walking then ankle biti*

Redirection is a WONDERFUL tool to help survive puppy hood in a SAFE and postive way. 

On the "subtopic" I have never understood why many people seem to think that Mods and Admins do not have the same right to express their opinions and advice. I personally value the advice of the Mods and Admin on this board they are very knowledgable and based on MY experience have a tendency to offer very sound advice. 

BTW I would post the same thing without the "Mod" title.


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