# Possible to train puppy without crate?



## Mre2me (Jul 25, 2011)

I want to keep my puppy in my office room instead of a crate. Obviously the problem is that he has a much bigger area to roam around in.

Is there anyway I could train him not to poop and pee in the room through negative reinforcement until I can train it to go outside?

A cousin of mine, who actually trained German Shepherds for the Spetnaz recommended putting their noses in their waste as a way of negative reinforcement. It makes sense to me, but from what I been reading, this is harmful.

Any other ideas?


Also as a side question. Should I let my pup have free access to food and water or give it at certain times of the day so that I can better predict when he eliminates?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

you can housebreak a puppy without a crate but i wouldnt recommend it. As far as rubbing their noses in it, BAD. It only discourages them from going potty in front of you. Crate training also helps in more ways that one. It prevents chewing on inappropriate things which not only protects your things but more importantly it protects your puppy. 

Regarding free feeding, that would make potty training a great deal more difficult because the puppy is not on a feeding schedule and therefore not on an actual potty schedule. Your puppy should always have access to water but again, on a schedule preferably until he/she is reliably housetrained. 

Crate training helps greatly as well when and if your puppy has to spend a night or two at the vets. If he/she is crate trained, they're less likely to try and get out of the crate/kennel and therefore less likely to hurt themselves further. 

IMO, your cousin is wrong on a massive scale for the rubbing the pups nose in his mess. As i said it will only discourage the pup from eliminating in front of you which can be bad for the future if you have to take your pup out to eliminate on a leash say on vacation... 

Also when your pup DOES make a mess, dont get mad, just interrupt your pups elimination and remove them to outside where you want them to potty. Again, getting mad about it, only succeeds in making your puppy fear you and refuse to eliminate in front of you causing the whole house breaking process to take longer. When they do mess in the house, once they've finished eliminating outside, bring pup back inside and crate while you clean up the mess with an enzyme cleaner to break down the urine/poo scent particals. thats the only way to discourage the puppy from continuing to eliminate in the same places in the house. 

Crate train for safety. crates also help for your sanity when you need a break from the little landshark. 

For training ANYTHING, if you want your pup to actually* LIKE* you and _*RESPECT*_ you, _*positive reinforcement is the only way to go*_... especially with the GSD breed. negative reinforcement again, only succeeds in making your pup afraid of you. You want them to work for you because they WANT to work for you, not because they're afraid of what you'll do to hurt them mentally or physically.


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## Mre2me (Jul 25, 2011)

Thank you for your input.

I am actually not worried about the puppies safety since I don't think it could possibly hurt itself in a room with just two computers and a desk.

The problem I am having with house training it is that I can never know when its about to eliminate. Its peeing and pooping takes only a few seconds, so even when I see it, I don't have the time to move it. I suppose a crate or at least a more better feeding schedule would help a lot with it.

Should I carry it when I want it to go to its elimination spot? It seems like its the only option sometimes because its a bit far and the dog doesn't always follow me, and its not adjusted to its leash yet. There is also steps involved and Mika is a little hesitant to walk them down herself (its not scared though, its done it plenty of times).

As of my cousin, I don't like the idea either. I am trying to make a very gentle and adorable pet. His objective on the other hand is to create a military guard dog.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Mre2me said:


> Thank you for your input.
> 
> I am actually not worried about the puppies safety since I don't think it could possibly hurt itself in a room with just two computers and a desk.
> 
> ...


 

a desk and two computers can still be a great deal of trouble for a puppy. This is a MOUTHY breed. They chew on EVERYTHING. We dont call them landsharks or fuzzy gators for nothing. 

and YES, you should carry HER out to the elimination spot. A puppy is not likely to eliminate on you when being carried. She's young so she's going to need every advantage you can give her. Carrying her out to eliminate can prevent messes in the house. 

Crate training is very effective in housebreaking because a puppy is less likely to eliminate in her crate. Same thing as wolves in the wild. You dont mess where you sleep. Thats not to say a puppy wont eliminate in their crate because accidents do happen. 

I apologize but if you actually care about this puppy, stop calling her an 'it'. She is either female or male. never an 'it'.

Please read through the puppy section, specifically on housetraining, crate training and bite inhibition.

While housetraining, if your puppy is on feeding schedule, you can reasonably assume she'll need to go out no more than 30 minutes after she's done eating.


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## Oldnewbie (Jul 21, 2011)

Look on Craig's list for a used crate in good condition. The wire mesh ones are sturdy and if you put a pad in it the pup will be comfortable. The crate will help house train her and will allow you to keep her close without being loose. Use it a few times a day for a short period. If she complains don't let her out until she has stopped complaining for at least 5 minutes. Give her a Kong with peanut butter or cheese in it to occupy her.
To house break a pup you have to catch her at it, say NO and take her out IMMEDIATELY to finish outside, then praise her. Then come back inside and clean up. If you want her to go to the same place in the yard you have to take her there and quietly wait for her to go, then praise. She will tend to go right after naps and around meal times. Feed her 3 - 4 times a day always at the same time to put her body and mind in a routine. Take food away after 15 minutes and no food till next time. She will catch on fast. Don't worry if she skips a meal of her own choice, that is common.
__________________


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Please please* DO NOT* rub your puppys nose in his pee or poop when he has an accident. Would you do that to a human infant? That is a horrible piece of advice you were given. It will only teach your puppy to fear you. 
You would be suprised what puppies can get into. If it is with in reach it is an open invitation for chewing, specially wires. I have raised my puppies in a "puppy-proofed" kitchen for day & crate at night. You can put a wee wee pad/newspapers down, be prepared if puppy is bored chewing paper is fun. I did not have a problem with my pup learning to go outside after using paper in the house. You have to watch your puppy like a hawk and let him out several times a day before he will get the idea.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I raised my current male without crating during the night. I didn't have a crate handy in the house the first night he came home since we'd gotten a puppy for my daughter and I thought that she would need the crate more(being a teenager I figured she'd sleep through the puppy chewing off her foot and not notice ). He has never had an accident in the house and never chewed anything in the bedroom during the night. However, he did go with me to work at our dog daycare every day so was always exhausted when we came home at night and would happily put himself to bed on his dog bed. 
I did however put him in a crate in the basement if we left the house at all during the day, there is just way too much temptation for a GSD puppy during the daytime. They will chew whatever strikes their fancy and it is generally something expensive or dangerous (computer cables and cords come to mind!). 
As to housebreaking, you need to do some research into modern techniques. Rubbing a dog's nose in their own waste does nothing but confuse the dog and cause them to hide somewhere else and creates a much bigger problem. 
Check out Dog Star Daily for great training information that is humane and scientifically based. This is a great article on early housetraining.
Puppy's First Week at Home (8-9 weeks) | Dog Star Daily


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## uclaman (Jun 21, 2011)

re: shoving a puppy's face into its own feces...

‪eletendre1's Channel‬‏ - YouTube


if you don't want to watch the whole thing, go to the 3:50 mark.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mre2me said:


> Is there anyway I could train him not to poop and pee in the room through negative reinforcement until I can train it to go outside?


How exactly would you use negative reinforcement to train a puppy not to eliminate in the house?  BTW, is "it" a he or a she?

A room with computers has cords, probably lots of them. Puppies can electrocute themselves chewing cords - that goes way beyond harm, it's potentially fatal. It took a long time for my pups to be trained not to chew cords, when they were in the office with us while we're on our computers I was CONSTANTLY having to move them away from the cords. 

You CAN housebreak a puppy without a crate, but it's so much easier to use one, so why make it harder for yourself and for your puppy?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This is the definition of negative reinforcement:

*Negative reinforcement occurs when the likelihood of a certain behavior increases as the result of removing something unpleasant after the behavior. *

What you're talking about is actually positive punishment:

*Positive punishment occurs when the likehood of a certain behavior decreases as the result of the presentation of something unpleasant after the behavior. *


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

I'd crate it. I'm not really sure why you wish to keep it in the office room instead?

At this age, they need to be in the crate to learn the house rules. Also, put it this way, the faster they are housebroken, the faster you will trust them to have more room in the house. Mine just turned 6 months and I am just starting to trust to walking around the house more. It will likely be at least a year before I start trusting her around the house when I'm not home.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Is there a reason you don't want to use a crate?

I can't think of a good reason NOT to use one. Puppies will chew electrical cords, they will lie under your chair and accidentally rolled over, they will chew your feet, etc. 

DO NOT rub her nose in it if she potties in the office! It's your fault, not hers. Potty time should be on a schedule, like every half hour, if the pup is loose in the room. If you have a crate, she will learn to hold it, as puppies don't like to mess in their sleeping area, so you can get away with potty breaks every hour or so (depending on her age).

Crate training just makes everything so much easier. I wish I had known about it when I got my first puppy, a million years ago. Thankfully we both lived through the experience and she became a great dog, but it's so much more work without a crate.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

I would not put my dog's face in its waste. People are highly successful training their dogs without doing that...so why put yourself and the dog through that? I also cannot imagine how filthy the dog's face would be after you've done that. Nasty!

Instead, I would invest in a nice crate and use it to assist in the process. Crates are extremely helpful. It's wise to take advantage of them and make life for you and your puppy so much more enjoyable.

For me, the best part about using a crate is the peace of mind that comes with it. I can put my puppy in her crate and know that she is safe and not getting into trouble. We have had our puppy for four weeks. She has only had an accident three times inside and each of those times were our fault for not being attentive.

I can promise that if you leave your puppy alone in the office, they will find something destroy due to boredom. You will also open the door to find a lot of surprises around the room!


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## Mre2me (Jul 25, 2011)

I would never be cruel enough to become coercive with her so no worries.

Found some nice crates on craigslist. Thank you for that.



> You will also open the door to find a lot of surprises around the room!


This just happened :-$


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Not to mention having a dog that takes well to the crate is great for when you travel, need to board, or have someone watch your dog for you. Or if you need a quiet place for your dog to rest.  I'm extremely glad that my dogs like their crates.


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## Mre2me (Jul 25, 2011)

Ahh well I bought her a Midwest 36" crate and a doggy bed.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

Mre2me said:


> Ahh well I bought her a Midwest 36" crate and a doggy bed.


That's great! Life is going to be so much easier for all of you.


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