# What would you suggest here?



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Here is a CL post, edited to make it easier to read (I have permission to post).



> Hi my fellow craigslisters. i am back and the problem has gotten worst. I came to you last with my problems about my pit bull. Well now i have to get rid of him he tried to..well he did bite my son the other day. We tried everything your guy suggested .
> 
> We can not take him to groomer because he will bite. Two of my neighborhood Vets will not see him any more with out a muzzle. HE is not a dumb dog he starts to growl and snarl when he sees us coming with the muzzle. So now he can not go to the vet or the groomer. I have spend over 250 in trying to get him trained. Myself my wife and my kids walk him with our other dog twice a days.
> 
> ...


What would you do with the dog? Would you put it down? Find a rescue to try and rehab this animal? Does he sound like a stable, good dog to you... ? No, he sounds like a menace who isn't of a sound mind...


Well... I think I know most of you will say euth it, I would. Any dog that is obviously that messed up.





How about if the dog could fit in a cat carrier?
Would you treat it differently?

Here's the original post.


> Hi my fellow craigslisters. i am back and the problem has gotten worst. I came to you last with my problems about my pomeranian/chihuahua. Well now i have to get rid of him he tried to..well he did bite my son the other day. We tried everything your guy suggested .
> 
> We can not take him to groomer because he will bite. Two of my neighborhood Vets will not see him any more with out a muzzle. HE is not a dumb dog he starts to growl and snarl when he sees us coming with the muzzle. So now he can not go to the vet or the groomer. I have spend over 250 in trying to get him trained. Myself my wife and my kids walk him with our other dog twice a days.
> 
> ...



Why should a small dog, unstable, aggressive, be treated differently than a larger breed? 

I can look at a, say, truly unstable German Shepherd and say "There are too many stable, friendly GSDs dying in shelters to invest money, time, and possibly injured people in this dog." And would say, as sad as it is, to humanely put him down.

But what about a truly unstable small dog? Say a 12lb, nervy wreck?
True, the possibility of this dog killing an adult is slim to none. But severely hurting one, mauling a kid, causing chaos to people and dogs if it gets loose as well as being aggressive to family members are all possible...



I think treating a small dog different is understandable in some situations... But not keeping an unstable, nervous dog alive simply because it's small is not one of those reasons IMO.



Now, I don't know for sure if the one example, the CL post I used, is an unstable dog, or just a dog who's been spoiled and treated like a baby for it's life that is confused and unhappy. 

But I have met my fair share of truly unstable small dogs, due to bad breeding, overbreeding, or just crappy temperaments, and I would no more keep one alive than I would a large dog.

So, post your opinions on large vs small, how aggression and instability should be handled in both... What would you do? Here's a scenario:

You've owned a big, bully dog from a pup... Good with you and family most of the time, but acts like he wants to kill anyone NOT in the immediate family living under your roof, has to be sedated to see a vet, can't go out without trying to hurt people, and bit your kid without being extremely provoked... Growls and snarls at you sometimes and training hasn't helped... The dog is obviously not confident or sound... Trainers/behaviorists haven't helped.

Now...

You've owned a rat terrier from a pup... Good with you and family most of the time, but acts like he wants to kill anyone NOT in the immediate family living under your roof, has to be sedated to see a vet, can't go out without trying to hurt people, and bit your kid without being extremely provoked... Growls and snarls at you sometimes and training hasn't helped... The dog is obviously not confident or sound... Trainers/behaviorists haven't helped.



I guess this is a bit of a rant too, as I see people thinking it's okay for a small dog to act vicious because it won't do as much damage as a large dog. One of my family members won't even come over unless I have Sparkles, my 11lb dog, and J, the GSD locked up securely because she was attacked by a small dog that tore her up... She's physically and mentally scarred for life, and that small dog is still alive, hurting people. I've seen it and it is NOT a happy dog... Eyes constantly bugging out if it's stressed the slightest, trembles constantly... Just not happy, it's owner says that's just how small dogs are... 

Do not get me wrong... I love small dogs.



So, if anyone got what my long-winded post was aiming at... lol give your opinions on it...


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Sounds like a thread that is only intended to drum up an argument about pits vs other dogs displaying aggression.

12 lbs vs 50, 60, 90, whatever the weight of the dog - aggression is aggression. However, the bottom line is if your killer toy poodle gets out of control, while he could certainly inflict serious damage, he isn't likely to actually KILL anyone or send them to the ICU.

There is a difference, whether pit owners want to admit to it or not. If any of my german shepherds was that aggressive, they could cause serious damage to someone, just like a pit, rottie, dobie, mastiff, or any other large breed dog. The corgi next door isn't likely do be capable of such damage, even if his little heart desired to do so.

The lab next door broke out of his yard a few weeks ago and darn near successfully killed a neighborhood walkers little toy poodle. A big goofy yellow lab. Of the entire crowd that gathered to witness the attack (which resulted in the lab carrying and shaking the poodle for some period of time as he ran around loose), only my SO and I actually got involved to seperate the dogs. Neither owner was of any use unfortunately due to mass emotional meltdowns. No dog aggression known otherwise from the lab. One of the most dog aggressive dogs in my neighborhood is a big chubby golden retriever. Pit, shepherd, labrador, poodle, regardless of the breed, all are capable and all should be treated as such. But there IS a difference when you are talking about a 12 lb dog and a 60+ lb dog when it comes to the possible damage they can inflict.

What would my advice be - I wouldn't personally advise anyone on CL of anything in regards to such a serious nature. People can and always will feel they have done everything they could, tried all the training they could, etc. And sometimes if they are experienced enough and actually were dedicated, this is actually the case. But more often than not, they honestly believe they are out of options when in reality they aren't training properly or implicating the techniques necessary to correct these types of problems. Until an actual trainer or dog experienced person meets and evals the dog, family, training, and homelife, no real recommendation can be made in regards to what should be done. Attempting to do so, simply based on those postings, is an injustice to the dog and family.JMHO


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Rerun, and I'm not really sure why you pick a pit bull vs a pom/chi when this is a GSD board? I know your 'into' pits, but isn't there a pit board??

My feeling is the same, by the postings alone , no matter the size, there's a big problem and I would never place this dog with another human or rescue organization. I'd euthanize it or KEEP it and DEAL with the consequences.

I also agree, while little dogs can do damage, a big dog is going to do much more damage.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Well, I would have said Dobie or GSD, ect. But most seem to think bully breeds are aggressive by nature and might have an easier time say "put down" than they would a shepherd or something, and I didn't want to use GSD because this is a GS board and more people are bound to take offense... Also because someone said "wonder what people would say if it was a pit bull and not a chi mix".

Too late for me to edit... but if I could, I would, just pretend I said large lab mix.

Ah, please don't take this and make it a bulldog debate... I know there is a big difference in drive and traits between an APBT and a lab or any other mutt. And believe it or not, I didn't not intend to make this a pit bull vs all other breeds, it was just the first breed that popped into my head to replace chihuahua with.


Also, your replies, hypothetical responses to such a dog's problems, and opinions won't be sent to the CL poster. The one posting is just an example of how small dogs seem to get a lot more lenience than a large breed, and I was interested in your thoughts and opinions on that.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

I would call bestfriends and let a profesnal reabilite the dog and try to rehome it that way. Other wise it might be bedt for all to have him pts.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with Rerun, and I'm not really sure why you pick a pit bull vs a pom/chi when this is a GSD board? I know your 'into' pits, but isn't there a pit board??
> *Well, I figured it would cause some people to get a bit angry if I used a the German Shepherd name to show a bad dog, on a Shepherd forum, my mistake.*
> My feeling is the same, by the postings alone , no matter the size, there's a big problem and I would never place this dog with another human or rescue organization. I'd euthanize it or KEEP it and DEAL with the consequences.
> *My thoughts exactly.*
> ...


Replies in bold


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

ChristenHolden said:


> I would call bestfriends and let a profesnal reabilite the dog and try to rehome it that way. Other wise it might be bedt for all to have him pts.


That's another responsible way to handle an aggressive dog... But an _unstable_ or nervy dog, who's problems are in his mind and not in training/socialization? 

Well, my course of action would be so consult a vet to rule out medical problems, then a behaviorist, and then if that didn't work, the vet for the last time. Sounds harsh, but a real unstable dog can't be happy living like a normal dog.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think its someone who is trying to stir up trouble.

I would at least try to rehabilitate the dog and then have enthunization as a last resort.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I love the line, that I spend $250 trying to train this dog. ROTFL. 

There are months when I spend $250 on training, and I do not have an aggressive dog. 

My regular routine is puppy, basic, advanced, CGC, some other class, advanced again -- all of them cost $65-$75 for six class sessions, and I live in the most depressed area. 

But, the fact is, there are dogs out there, big dogs, little dogs, purebreds and mixes, that people have screwed up. Big or little, people have three acceptable choices: keep it and work through it; find some one experienced with aggressive dogs willing to take it with full disclosure; and euthanasia. 

It is not so much as the size of the dog, but the situation the dog is in. If you have a child being terrorized by a Yorkie, you have to do something about it. And unless you are committed to changing completely, I do not see much hope there. Finding someone to take the aggressive dog is not always possible, which leaves euthanasia. 

Big or little, euthanasia for aggressive behavior, is understandable. It is a complete failure on the part of humans. But if you rescued a dog and come to find out the reason it was given up is that it bites, and you have tried to deal with the problem, then I think, sometimes you have to protect yourself (financially) and your family and children physically, and do the hard thing. 

If you have had the dog from a puppy, well shame on you. But sometimes, whether we just do not know any better, or we have genetic weak nerves, or we have a dog that is not working with all his marbles, sometimes it is better to humanely euthanize the dog before more people are injured. And before replacing the dog, you should really try to determine what went wrong and how to make sure it doesn't again. 

Euthanizing a dog for aggression is no picnic but sometimes it is what has to be done. But when people have two or three or more dogs that find this fate, at some point, you have to say, what is wrong with the people.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

APBTLove, your initial post is too long, try to keep in mind:



> 13. Due to the size of the forum all posts should be less than 1,000 words. If you feel the information warrants exceeding the 1,000 word limit you need to get approval from one of the Administrators before posting.


Not sure how it will get edited but it's almost 1500 words....


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

But it was interesting, at least!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

All the interesting ones get notifies. I wonder how soon before they lock this one down.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

selzer said:


> All the interesting ones get notifies. I wonder how soon before they lock this one down.


Don't need any of that.............  all the OP had to do was edit down the original post to fit within the rules....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, and I do not want it to be.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with Rerun, and I'm not really sure why you pick a pit bull vs a pom/chi when this is a GSD board? I know your 'into' pits, but isn't there a pit board??


I agree too. Why is this discussion even here? Many of us have other breeds as well as a GSD, or we have cats, or horses or birds, or whatever, and occasionally we post about them. But most of our posts HERE on THIS board are about our GSDs. I can't figure out why someone who is more interested in discussing pitbulls isn't doing so in a more appropriate place? :thinking:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wow, some of you folks are tough!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the thread is valid, the question is, when many people would quickly say put THAT dog down, when it is a dog whose breed has a rep, like GSDs, but with toy breeds and little dogs in general, the dog can bite a dozen separate people and no one is screaming for its head.

Now if APBT used a GSD in the first scenario, well, the audiance is slightly biased FOR GSDs wouldn't you say, and this audience would go with leadership and training and special rescues before calling for a GSD head. 

Had the dog in this scenario been a GSD, I think I would suggest putting it down, considering the owners are unlikely to commit to the change required or the cost, there are tons of GSDs in rescues and shelters that do not have bite histories, and even if humans had failed the dog, it is not ok to let more people experience bites and aggression.

I think people who want this thread to go away, should just not participate in it instead of going after the poster. If a thread is out of place, and nobody posts to it, it just dies.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank you Selzer, that is what I meant... Say, if I went on the rottie forum I frequent and posted this, I might use a German Shepherd instead of pit bull or rottie to show how differently people think on the size of a dog...


I am blind to dog breeds... I mean, I do judge a bit differently on aggression, but not an weak-nerved, unstable, dog... I don't care if it be a GSD, a Papillon, or a Cattle dog... If it's a danger, and it's not a training/socialization thing, there's little to be done.

I have a friend over the internet right now who's going through a very rough time... Her dog, actually well-bred, is nervy, borderline fear aggressive to people she's known since a pup as she matures... And just so freaked out about so many things, she's not happy. She's tense, and waiting for something to happen all the time.

She was raised, trained, and WELL socialized by a very experienced and loving owner... This is not something that will be trained out, and she's decided she's going to make her as comfortable as possible and give her some really great last days and then set her free of her demons at the Bridge, or, to be blunt, she's going to put her down.

I cannot argue with that... This isn't a small breed, but just an example of a truly messed up dog who can't live happily. 




My own boy has weak nerves, that is clear... However, he's not unstable or so far has not shown it. He is _rock-solid_ with me, and a few family members and one friend. He wants nothing to do with anyone else. 

I wouldn't dream of euthanizing him, because I can handle him and he's come a long way, and he's not an unhappy dog. But I really can't imagine what would have happened if he went to your average pet home... Well, I can bet he'd be dropped at a shelter, or given up, or he'd be the next GSD on the news attacking someone.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I agree too. Why is this discussion even here?
> *Because this GSD board had a place to discuss aggression particularly, and this is a thread on aggression/instability/weak nerves causing aggression, in dogs, and since German Shepherd Dogs are dogs, I thought you dog owners would find it a nice discussion.*
> I can't figure out why someone who is more interested in discussing pitbulls isn't doing so in a more appropriate place? :thinking:
> *Ah, I guess you missed me explaining myself, and Selzer explaining again what I meant. Don't you think that posting a German Shepherd as an aggressive dog on a German Shepherd forum would get some biased answers? And if you're suggesting I post it on the bulldog-breeds board, well, it's been done. *


Replies in bold.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> APBTLove, your initial post is too long, try to keep in mind:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how it will get edited but it's almost 1500 words....


Can it be split into a few posts?


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Well, I'm going to state the obvious, I much rather take a chance on an aggressive say, Cairn Terrier over an aggressive Shepherd, Rottie and most especially a Pit, and this coming from a Pit Lover as well as obviously a Shepherd lover, it's pure size, the Cairn isn't going to kill me or rip my throat out. Thats not to say it's agression is any less, it's just an easier task, I handle horses, and it's no different than saying I'd rather try to rehabilitate a Shetland Pony over an aggressive Thoroughbred, theres a HUGE difference in sizes here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If APBTlove had posted it as a hypothetical without a breed then I don't think there would be a controversy.

While I think this is a good discussion, I also think that the end decision would be extremely personal and heartwrenching for the owner of such a dog. I would never post something like that on the internet if I were in that person's shoes. There will always be someone saying that enough wasn't done. If I had a dog that I had tried everything with, including a behaviorist and a full medical exam, that I thought was a true threat to my family I would have it euthanized. I would not, could not with a clear conscious, pass that danger on to someone else.

But, while discussing size in the equation, there was a video on the news about a cat that attacked its owner. A regular housecat did quite a number on this woman.

Woman?s cat attack horror: ?My cat tried to kill me? // Current


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, I do not have any real experience with Rotty or pit bull aggression, but I have broken up GSD fights and have been bitten a couple of times, bad bites that took a long time to heal. But I never felt fear from the actual dogs, because the aggression was not directed to me. 

When Frodo bit me, the aggression was directed toward me, but while it broke the skin, it was really just a warning, not a full out attack type bite. 

Other dog bites, the newfoundland, and the poodles, and then the little dogs. 

You know, I am down right afraid of little dogs -- terriers, that nasty corgi. They sound so viscious, mean like they are going to do their best to kill you. 

It is pretty funny to think I have a stable of GSDs and am afraid of a little 12 pound or 20 pound dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Maybe because they may be small but very quick!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

selzer said:


> I love the line, that I spend $250 trying to train this dog. ROTFL.


I found that amusing as well, with Tessa I've spent well over $1000 in training her and thats without any behavioral issues!


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Lol! The problem with so many breeds is people fall in love with a look without researching what the breeds were bred for, I have a Cairn and they are unbelieavably cute, especially as puppies, but they have not been ruined by fad breeders and are very much what they were created to do , kill. They are tenacious and feisty, if you look at even the littlest of terriers teeth you would be surprised how large they are, like a large dogs teeth, but being face to face against tenacious foe in small, cramped quarters necessitates this. If people would just know what they are getting and make that dogs life as natural for it as you could there would be so many less misunderstood and abandoned pets.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I was attacked by a cat, there is nothing like it, I would rather be attacked by a dog twice it's size. Cats latching on with their claws WHILE biting over, and over. Her owner wasn't even able to get her off.


I think small dogs have it bad, people like the way they look and don't research... and in the end it is the dog who ends up paying. People don't realize that the cutie JRT has drive that rivals a high-strung GSD, in fact...






My small breed isn't even from working breeds, but I can't imagine her just being someone's foofie dog. She's happiest killing vermin and being surrounded by kids... 
'Course, she was raised by Shepherds...









And I could so see someone carrying her around in a purse lol


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> While I think this is a good discussion, I also think that the end decision would be extremely personal and heartwrenching for the owner of such a dog. I would never post something like that on the internet if I were in that person's shoes. There will always be someone saying that enough wasn't done. If I had a dog that I had tried everything with, including a behaviorist and a full medical exam, that I thought was a true threat to my family I would have it euthanized. I would not, could not with a clear conscious, pass that danger on to someone else.


It is the hardest decision, and it is the most heart-wrenching. My dog, my love, my life, my heart, was weak-nerved... And because of her breed she was put down. I will not turn this into a breed debate, but I know what it's like to have been in those shoes, and nobody can envy putting a physically healthy dog down... Especially a young one. I can only hope she's running in fields with a sound mind with all of our other lost friends.

I could have chosen to rehome her... But as you said, not with a clear conscience, what if she tore some kids' face off because I didn't have it in me to kill her? 

If she had been a toy breed, I would have felt he same... For some reason, I immediately think of kids being hurt, because while everyone can say a 10lb mutt can't kill a human, what about the toddler who goes stumbling up to it? I've seen my tiny dog disembowel a muskrat half her size, a kid's throat isn't any tougher.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> Well, I'm going to state the obvious, I much rather take a chance on an aggressive say, Cairn Terrier over an aggressive Shepherd, Rottie and most especially a Pit, and this coming from a Pit Lover as well as obviously a Shepherd lover, it's pure size, the Cairn isn't going to kill me or rip my throat out. Thats not to say it's agression is any less, it's just an easier task, I handle horses, and it's no different than saying I'd rather try to rehabilitate a Shetland Pony over an aggressive Thoroughbred, theres a HUGE difference in sizes here.


Oh I'm with you... I'd rather punt a Minpin than a doberman lol


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