# Our pup was traumatized: Advice requested please



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Yesterday a colleague/friend and her husband brought their 5 month old puppy, Triton (Giant Schnauzer) over for a visit. This is the second visit between Triton and our 9 1/2 week German Shepherd puppies (litter mates). Their Schnauzer is about 50 pounds and our pups are about 15 pounds. During their first visit (a week ago) their playful Schnauzer was a little rough with our pups (just because of his size…no aggression). One of our pups (Trapper) took it in stride and played well with the Schnauzer. Our other pup (Hawkeye, who is typically our more assertive/independent/self-confident pup) did not handle it well. After being knocked off his feet a couple of times by Triton (who just wanted to play) Hawkeye was clearly not amused and just wanted to get far away from Triton.
So…..in anticipation of their second visit my husband and I were on guard and planned to keep our pups separated from Triton. Unfortunately, my friend and her husband arrived at our home earlier than expected and my friend's husband took Triton into our back yard, entered our fenced area, proceeded to enter (without knocking)into my husband's work shop (where my husband was watching TV with our two pups at his feet). My colleague's husband immediately unleashed his Schnauzer who ran towards our pups. Trapper immediately began playing with the Schnauzer but Hawkeye was clearly traumatized by the sudden appearance/intrusion of the much larger dog. The remainder of the visit Hawkeye stayed as far away as possible. At one point the Schnauzer started chasing Hawkeye and had to be called back by his owner. At that point, we contained both our pups in their dog run so they would be safe and we did not allow Triton to get near either of them for the remainder of the visit.
My colleague has the reputation of being a very responsible, experienced dog owner. They supposedly "do everything right" with their dogs so we trusted them. They thought we should not worry about it and let the puppies work it out themselves. We felt like had betrayed our pups and not kept them safe. Now we worry Hawkeye will be negatively affected by this experience and regret ever allowing the situation to occur. 1) Are we being too protective of our pups? 2) How should we have handled the situation? 3) What can we do now to help Hawkeye?


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

They are too small to be playing with such a large puppy. If it were an adult dog with appropriate play skills, it could be different (meaning a calm adult that self-handicaps for babies)...

I'd simply ask your friend not to bring the pup over on visits until the puppies are bigger.

As for the effect it had on Hawkeye, I personally wouldn't over think it, it's done and over with. Just try to have more positive intros with other dogs from here forward. Stick to pups that are similar in size and/or age or calm adults. And always watch how your pups are reacting.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks Lauren. I did tell my friend that we could try again in a few months when their sizes were similar. In hindsight, I should have known better than to trust ANYONE to make the right decision for our pups……rookie error! I think today I will set up a visit with a known, calm adult dog (one our pups have met twice with no problems). Maybe we should put them on a leash and let them meet in front yard and walk them all to back yard.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

So, let me get this straight: This supposedly responsible and experienced dog owner brings his adult over, enters unannounced, and unleashes his dog on two baby puppies... in their own house! 
This, after a first visit didn't go so well.

1) you need to be more protective of your pups 
2) there should not have been a second visit 
3) keep Hawkeye away from unleashed older dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dogs are not kids . 

what do you expect ? 
how do you think that will go down 2 years from now with two same gender bonded littermates , GSD, with a sense of home territory .

Home is not neutral ground.

Your friend was an intruder , the dog was an intruder .

He should have had some courtesy and called out , allowed you to respond , given you a moment to organize yourself and the pups .

I see lots of undesirable behaviours beginning to take shape . At this age they become deeply ingrained .

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> So, let me get this straight: This supposedly responsible and experienced dog owner brings his adult over, enters unannounced, and unleashes his dog on two baby puppies... in their own house!
> This, after a first visit didn't go so well.
> 
> 1) you need to be more protective of your pups
> ...


The other dog is 5 months old, not an adult.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if one puppy got along fine with the 5mth old I probably wouldn't worry about it unless the 5mth old was to rough, I would closely monitor their play.

If the other was intimidated by it, no way would I allow that to happen..

Masi had some very unpleasant experiences with an older golden retriever when she was very young, and to this day, she hates golden retreivers and believe me she knows one when she sees one


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The fearful puppy needs more socialization not less. You should be correcting the older puppy for not respecting the space of a fearful dog that isnt comfortable. The fearful pup will get over it with experience but you should supress play especially rough play until the pup regains comfort.

Correcting dogs for not respecting fearful suppressed dogs is an important thing to do to prevent future dog fights.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

llombardo said:


> The other dog is 5 months old, not an adult.


My bad for reading and replying BC-- before coffee!

The 50 pounds is what got me. 

Anyway, the best thing to do is keep experiences pleasant stress-free for a small pup.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

When I introduced my bigger puppy to my neighbor's baby puppy, mine was always leashed. I wouldn't expect him not to overwhelm or accidentally injure such a young puppy, so leashing him prevented this. I didn't let him off his leash to really play with her until she was over 4 months old - she's a lab, so she was a fair size by then, lol. I'd tell your friend he's welcome to bring his puppy for visits, and as long as the puppy's leashed I don't see a problem.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I guess I'm overprotective, but I would be very cautious about bring any other dogs around such small pups, from a health standpoint. I always cringe when I see tiny puppies in places like Pet-Smart. I know socialization is important, but is there a problem with waiting until those puppies have developed a better immune system?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

carmspack said:


> dogs are not kids .
> 
> what do you expect ?
> how do you think that will go down 2 years from now with two same gender bonded littermates , GSD, with a sense of home territory .
> ...


Link above is a very good one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Baillif said:


> The fearful puppy needs more socialization not less. You should be correcting the older puppy for not respecting the space of a fearful dog that isnt comfortable. The fearful pup will get over it with experience but you should supress play especially rough play until the pup regains comfort.
> 
> Correcting dogs for not respecting fearful suppressed dogs is an important thing to do to prevent future dog fights.


 
I would agree , except in this case the "other" dog belongs to someone else , not the OP -- 

might not stop me from doing it -- or at least asking the person who boldly walks into the yard as if it were his own to leash their dog .

respect all around for the home owner and resident dogs


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

carmspack said:


> dogs are not kids .
> 
> what do you expect ?
> how do you think that will go down 2 years from now with two same gender bonded littermates , GSD, with a sense of home territory .
> ...


Carmen,

1) Yes, my friend's husband and their dog, Triton were intruders. If our pups were older that intrusion would have likely set off a nasty chain of events (couldn't blame our dogs).

2) Regarding the undesirable behaviors you see taking shape, would you be willing to elaborate? I don't think this specific event was at all related to the fact that we have litter mates. Regardless, I would appreciate any insight/suggestions.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

leash the older dog and supervise their play closely
i agree that hawkeye needs more socialization but leashed so you can gently correct the older pup for being too rough

then again i dont see how a 9 1/2 week puppy was so disturbed by being knocked off his feet that he is cowering from it
especially considering the other pup was not upset by the play?


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The fearful puppy needs more socialization not less. You should be correcting the older puppy for not respecting the space of a fearful dog that isnt comfortable. The fearful pup will get over it with experience but you should supress play especially rough play until the pup regains comfort.
> 
> Correcting dogs for not respecting fearful suppressed dogs is an important thing to do to prevent future dog fights.


Will continue with socialization. Very disappointed in friend's lack of control and lack of respect….not sure how to improve this situation as they are buying a house in our neighborhood so may have future issues to address. Overall, our pups seem to be doing well. They are becoming more independent of each other. Thanks for your input. Always appreciated.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Will continue with socialization. Very disappointed in friend's lack of control and lack of respect….not sure how to improve this situation as they are buying a house in our neighborhood so may have future issues to address. Overall, our pups seem to be doing well. They are becoming more independent of each other. Thanks for your input. Always appreciated.


Don't worry too much about it. He didnt get attacked, he'll get over it. He was intimidated, this time. That doesnt automatically have to mean he even will be ever again. Its not a huge deal to just teach them a little indifference with each other. Don't make a huge deal over it or take it out on the other people. It'll be ok.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

People can be responsible dog owners with their own dog but still not understand dog behavior or boundaries. I never leave a young puppy with anyone's dog. They get a sniff while my dog and theirs are secured, and then the dogs are separated. He'll probably be alright, but I wouldn't encourage visits until your dogs are older.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> leash the older dog and supervise their play closely
> i agree that hawkeye needs more socialization but leashed so you can gently correct the older pup for being too rough
> 
> then again i dont see how a 9 1/2 week puppy was so disturbed by being knocked off his feet that he is cowering from it
> especially considering the other pup was not upset by the play?


During the first visit Triton stepped on Hawkeye while Hawkeye was on his back. That was the moment Hawkeye stopped playing and cowed from Triton.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

DutchKarin said:


> Link above is a very good one.


Thanks. I read the thread and it was helpful.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I thought you were trying to keep them separated as much as possible, first they were in the shop together with your husband and then they were put in the run together, they encountered the other puppy together the first and the second time, you are creating a pack dynamic that I think you will regret later (so far neither has had to "deal with" the world on their own...pretty soon they won't be able to), with some fearfulness to boot....be careful.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Aw Poor Hawkeye  Wait until Him and Trapper come up with a plan later. Triton will be surprised LOL. Probably put Tritons paw in warm water or something


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I doubt Hawkeye was traumatized by the sounds of it, BUT, you have some insight into his base personality now. It is super important that you work with that and not assume that they are identical twins. They may end up needing very different things from you.

If you really want to do this right, find a trainer that works with GSDs a lot and go in and have a set of well trained eyes give you some ideas. My trainer would have loved it I had come in when I first got my pup... sure wish I had too.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> I thought you were trying to keep them separated as much as possible, first they were in the shop together with your husband and then they were put in the run together, they encountered the other puppy together the first and the second time, you are creating a pack dynamic that I think you will regret later (so far neither has had to "deal with" the world on their own...pretty soon they won't be able to), with some fearfulness to boot....be careful.


They are separated for several hours each day (but not all the time). They are kenneled separately at night. They are separated for their 3 meals a day (in their kennels). One is in the dog run while I train the other (3-4 times a day for short training sessions). My husband takes each separately on little 4-wheeler rides. We take short car trips with one or the other. We take one at a time to visit with neighbors in the front yard or neighbor's house. We have a large back yard and when we let the puppies play together they will wrestle and run and play for a while and will then (sometimes) sleep in separate places in the back yard (out of sight/sound from the other). I took this to be a positive sign they are feeling confident alone. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

DutchKarin said:


> I doubt Hawkeye was traumatized by the sounds of it, BUT, you have some insight into his base personality now. It is super important that you work with that and not assume that they are identical twins. They may end up needing very different things from you.
> 
> If you really want to do this right, find a trainer that works with GSDs a lot and go in and have a set of well trained eyes give you some ideas. My trainer would have loved it I had come in when I first got my pup... sure wish I had too.


Their personalities are very different. Hawkeye has always been the most adventurous while Trapper is usually slower to try new things. Hawkeye is a little big bigger than Trapper and weighs a little more so he usually (but not always) ends up on top during their wrestle sessions. 

Puppy kindergarten classes (on separate days for each dog) starts Sept. 23rd. Will try to find a GSD trainer who would be willing to work with us. Good advice and thank you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> They are separated for several hours each day (but not all the time). They are kenneled separately at night. They are separated for their 3 meals a day (in their kennels). One is in the dog run while I train the other (3-4 times a day for short training sessions). My husband takes each separately on little 4-wheeler rides. We take short car trips with one or the other. We take one at a time to visit wpetith neighbors in the front yard or neighbor's house. We have a large back yard and when we let the puppies play together they will wrestle and run and play for a while and will then (sometimes) sleep in separate places in the back yard (out of sight/sound from the other). I took this to be a positive sign they are feeling confident alone. Maybe I'm wrong.


This routine sounds fine. As long as they are getting one on one time and exploring on their own, they will be fine. I can't imagine how cute it is to see them playing together as pups


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jake and Elwood said:


> They are separated for several hours each day (but not all the time). They are kenneled separately at night. They are separated for their 3 meals a day (in their kennels). One is in the dog run while I train the other (3-4 times a day for short training sessions). My husband takes each separately on little 4-wheeler rides. We take short car trips with one or the other. We take one at a time to visit with neighbors in the front yard or neighbor's house. We have a large back yard and when we let the puppies play together they will wrestle and run and play for a while and will then (sometimes) sleep in separate places in the back yard (out of sight/sound from the other). I took this to be a positive sign they are feeling confident alone. Maybe I'm wrong.



You are doing fine. They don't need to be isolated from each other. They just need to learn to be independent of each other.

I didn't let Seger play with dogs I didn't know. I wanted older, stable dogs that would play with him but not overwhelm him. Luckily, we have 3 other dogs so it wasn't hard to find. Your puppies do not need to play with strange dogs. They need to experience the world, its sounds, its items, its smells. Just let them do that. They'll be fine.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> They are separated for several hours each day (but not all the time). They are kenneled separately at night. They are separated for their 3 meals a day (in their kennels). One is in the dog run while I train the other (3-4 times a day for short training sessions). My husband takes each separately on little 4-wheeler rides. We take short car trips with one or the other. We take one at a time to visit wpetith neighbors in the front yard or neighbor's house. We have a large back yard and when we let the puppies play together they will wrestle and run and play for a while and will then (sometimes) sleep in separate places in the back yard (out of sight/sound from the other). I took this to be a positive sign they are feeling confident alone. Maybe I'm wrong.


This routine sounds fine. As long as they are getting one on one time and exploring on their own, they will be fine. I can't imagine how cute it is to see them playing together as pups I do t think they should be completely separated, they are going to live together eventually and it would be nice if they got along.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well it does have something to do with them being littermates or at least the same age .

some of the reasoning is captured in this thought " you have some insight into his base personality now. It is super important that you work with that" 

base personality , one more outgoing and the other reticent , sensitive , your words "Their personalities are very different. Hawkeye has always been the most adventurous while Trapper is usually slower to try new things"

well exactly there is a comfortable arrangement which will become set . Trapper will recede into the shadow of the brother , not develop to a potential as he doesn't need to deal -- send brother , let brother , view from distance , experience vicariously -- You will see it in training . 

Recall past posts -- at one time your intentions were to each of you to take one through training for SAR .

So far I don't think the breeder picked the right dogs .

You spent so much so including changing a job . $50,000 on fencing -- use that fencing to keep the friend and dog out . 

everyone said it would be difficult --- you have to deal with the reality and not the dream , fantasy . 

How are they responding individually to their names. If you call one of them is it always one that arrives first (if at all) or do they go off together in play . 

How do you feel bonding is going with you.


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