# He STINKS! Worried about his diet.



## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

Ok so we researched the RAW food diet before we started him on it. He has been fed raw exclusively for the last two months. But he SMELLS. I originally tried to make his baths last a month but have had to up it to every two weeks. I just can't take the stench. I am very concerned that it is something to do with his diet. I have asked my vet but he absolutely does NOT support raw feeding and so is no help at all (no productive help anyway). I have tried to look up past threads and a google search but didn't see much. I don't want to be hurting Frankie and hope that I can figure this out with the help of some expert knowledge!

His diet consists of a chicken quarter with a whole egg every morning and 1/2 to 3/4 lb MM (depending on weight) and 2-3 chicken wings (again weight dependant) with 4 oz OM in the evening. He also gets one capsule of fish oil daily that has the Vitamin E included. His MM is a roatation of pork and beef with bones included sometimes depending on the cut of meat. 

I brush him almost daily. He is teething and our trainer suggested that it might be some old blood/drool/yuck collecting in his gums so we wipe his mouth out with a wet rag as well. I am at a loss. Thank you all in advance for your opinions and help. I really think for his health we need it!


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

I forgot to add that his MM also includes beef heart along with the more common types of steak/roast/pork chop kinds of cuts. His OM is either beef kidney or liver.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It sounds to me like a pretty rich diet. I remember trying some of the fish-based feeds - Whew! Sinky coats, stinky crap, stinky dogs!


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

Too rich? How can I change it???


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wonder if he has a yeast infection? How are his ears and skin? I feed the same proteins/supplements as you and have no problems, maybe get a skin scraping done? I wouldn't feed eggs daily, that may be the issue.
If your vet is of no help, then go elsewhere...I had to do the same thing when my old vet was against raw.
Digestive enzymes and probiotics added to the meal may help as well with the mouth gunk issue, but I've never had build-up on teeth from raw feeding as long as they get RMB's. Turkey necks are great RMB's and the dogs love them.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Is it his breath or his coat? It's not an anal gland issue is it? What is the smell like? Yeasty? Dead carcass? Acid like?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is no indication of this dog's age or how long he has been on a conventional kibble diet. He has been on raw for two months. The diet is not ideal as presented as it lacks in minerals and vitamins and a lot of other things . You are providing macro nutrients - high in phosphorous -- no indication on fat per centages.
When you switch over to an improved diet you have a full body response . A lot of garbage needs to be eliminated by the body -- the old saying sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. Symptoms may be loose stool, coat falling out (making way for new healthy coat), skin flaking , eyes discharging , loose stools , gas . House cleaning .
This is a healing crisis . All the things you wanted to change are temporarily intensified. Understanding the Healing Crisis! | Facebook
Basic Healing Principles of Natural Cure

how's that for a start 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

Jane - his ears are good. Clean not stinky. Skin is a little dry but I attributed that to his 2x a month baths? He scratches some but not to the point where he looks like he might be uncomfortable. A skin scraping and yeast infection check sound like a great start! I will ask the vet at his appt next week. We have been waiting to finish up his boosters/rabies/flea and heartworm meds before we switched to a new vet but it is most definitely happening next month as he will be all done with shots for awhile! I will adjust the egg to every other day and watch for change. As for his mouth, I have never seen any gunk in it myself. As you said the RMB keep them pretty clean. Our trainer just suggested it and we have been wiping his gums as a last idea more than anything else.

Tiffany - It is most definitely his coat. I wish I could assign a kind of smell to it but I'm not familiar with them enough to differentiate.  I honestly don't know how to describe it. What would I look for if it was his anal gland?

Carmen - forgive me for the lack of info. Frankie is 6 months. He was on kibble since weaning until we transitioned him. We have been following the whole-prey model and just recently have found some luck getting green tripe shipped to us. I have tried steaming/pureeing various leafy greens but he won't touch it. At all. What I understood was that fat was important but not needed to be trimmed and weighed like the MM and RMB (until you get an eye anyway). I was mistaken? If this is normal and a sort of doggy detox then I can wait it out. I just want to rule anything else out too. He does not have any hair loss or bowel/gas problems and only a very small amount of eye tears on occasion. I will check out those links. Thank you for sharing them.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

For anal glands, you gotta check the old fashioned way...get up close and personal with his butt!  If that's where the smell is mainly coming from, then there you go. 

Does it smell like bad eggs? A dead animal? Garbage? Just trying to get an idea.


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## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

GSDs ususally don't have that dog smell like other breeds. He could be sick and show no signs...I would consider blood work be done.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

green tripe -- there's your smell


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

carmspack said:


> green tripe -- there's your smell


The thing is I haven't actually started feeding it to him yet. We just got a hold of a place that can ship it to us but we haven't received it yet.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Green tripe won't make the dog smell! Though the tripe is nasty smelling. What were you feeding him before and why the baths so frequently? He must have an underlying cause of the itchies for such a young dog...still wonder if it is yeast. That can smell sour


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

aubie said:


> For anal glands, you gotta check the old fashioned way...get up close and personal with his butt!  If that's where the smell is mainly coming from, then there you go.
> 
> Does it smell like bad eggs? A dead animal? Garbage? Just trying to get an idea.


His heiny smells allright...no more stinky than the rest of him anyway. Ok it smells sour. Not like garbage or bad eggs. It is quite pungent and is mainly around his body mass. His head area isn't strong it's just his skin and coat that I can identify.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

First thing I would do is give him a bath - to eliminate the possibility that he rolled in something.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Bunch of Rascals said:


> What I understood was that fat was important but not needed to be trimmed and weighed like the MM and RMB (until you get an eye anyway). I was mistaken?


No, you are not mistaken.

There are some people who insist that you *MUST *know the complete chemical analysis of everything you feed your dog and chart everything and know the vitamin and mineral amounts of everything - every day.

Then there are people like me, who have been feeding a raw diet to numerous dogs for over a decade - never ONCE having done any type of analysis of what they get and still managed to have dogs live long and healthy lives.

Like I said, I would start by bathing the dog, just in case he rolled in something nasty (which dogs do tend to do  ).


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## lanaw13 (Jan 8, 2011)

*Collar?*

Does he wear a collar? Eliminate that as the source of the smell before you head off to the vet…!!
Last summer I bought the boxers rolled leather collars. Harley started stinking so bad, baths didn't help, anal glands fine, nothing I could pinpoint. I took the collar off the day I was loading him in the car to go to the vet and realized THE COLLAR STUNK!!!!! (Glad I didn't make it to the vet, although he would have gotten a good laugh…..)
Chopper's collar didn't smell at all……but she doesn't spend half the day in the pool either!!!!  :hammer:


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## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

My first thought was what Lauri said -- is he rolling in something dead or rotten? Is his bedding stinky? I"m wondering if it's not something in the environment that he's getting in. I don't even bathe once a month and usually when I do, it's because Ezra has found something particularly rank to roll in. Ezra's diet contains all the things you describe in Frankie's diet (though of course, all dogs are different).


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

*Update....*

Sorry to be MIA...we've had some computer issues.  Anyway to update:

We took Franks to the vet, a new one Hallelujiah, after checking the simple things that everyone suggested (thank you to everyone). He checked everything, glands, skin, full run up and everything came back clear. The vet said he thought he smelled like a normal dog to him and that he didn't think I needed to do anything but if it makes me feel better we can rule it all out. I did change his collar as he had outgrown his and noticed a little improvement. THEN we found out this last weekend that I am pregnant again. I just had a super sensitive nose I think. Pretty embarassing. Sorry to waste all your precious advise...in all sincerity. 

I am so shocked and overwhelmed. Thank God we have had Franks in classes for the last month and that by the time baby comes he will have had lots of work and time and love put in. Maybe even his CGC...maybe  We have another month of puppy class and then we are going to enrolll him in adult class, probably this summerish, with the option to test at the end. Ok sorry to ramble...thank you to everyone again for your time.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Congrats on the pregnancy!

I was just going to state that I get compliments on the lack of the usual doggie odor with all of my rawfed dogs.  

One more comment: it does sound like your dog's diet is a bit chicken heavy. Red meat is also important. How much red meat does he get on a daily basis? My dogs are fed twice daily: the morning meal is chicken leg quarters and the evening meal is red meat, with tripe, organ meat, and sardines thrown in about 3-4x per week. My concern with too much chicken is that it is not a balanced raw diet, and your dog might also be getting too much bone. How are his bowl movements? If he's straining at all, of if the stool is a bit powdery, it means too much bone and you'll need to up your red meat percentage.


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

I am so glad you asked that because it is the EXACT question I asked our breeder in the beginning. I was concerned about too much chicken as well but she said it was fine. Our issue was that we thought it was important to balance the ratios at each meal as opposed to throughout the day. We had trouble getting any other RMB that were size appropriate and not a choking hazard. So we just used chicken wings to provide the RMB at dinner. The pork neck bones were too big, some cuts of steak and pork had bone but not enough to justify plus he just picks the meat off and doesn't actually eat them. We can't find turkey necks or wings in our area. He gets most of his OM at dinner as well besides the little bit attached to the quarter, and it's always beef liver or kidney. If he can eat all of his RMB in one meal then we could definitely focus more red MM at dinner. His bowel movements are varied. Sometimes they are a bit powdery and white but I had read that it was normal for raw fed dogs? He doesn't strain that I have noticed but I will watch him more carefully. I have been a little lax since he has fully adjusted to the diet, or so I thought.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

My dogs often get boneless red meat for their evening meal.  I try to balance over about a week's time rather than daily or per meal. I'm a very "relaxed" raw feeder and I use my dog's poops to determine whether to increase or decrease bone. It's not exactly normal to have a powdery/white BM from time to time, but isn't really a concern, either. I'm not big on the "RMB" diet... in other words I don't care whether my dogs get raw meaty bones.. as long as they're eventually getting close to the proper ratio of meat, bones, and organ (80/10/10).


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

We have been going with the ratio of 50% MM 40% RMB and 10% OM. The whole-prey model I believe. I will watch the chicken amounts for sure because it has always been a concern in the back of my mind and I will try to adjust his dinner for a week or so and note changes. I am however, going to stick with the ratios we have been using over the week instead of every meal. We'll see how he does! Thank you very much for your advice.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

The problem with those ratios is that everyone's definition of an RMB is different. Some think of it as a big bone with hunks of meat hanging off, to others it's mostly meat with a bit of bone, and still others see it as something more in the middle of the two.

With a growing pup, it is important to get those calcium/phosphorus ratios correct. With too much bone, the pup would be getting too much calcium.


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## Bunch of Rascals (Dec 27, 2010)

AH! This is the worry I had when we first started the raw diet. It is so much easier to pour out kibble and call it good but I really wanted to do what was best for Frankie. But man there are just too many ways to do it right and too many ways to do it wrong.

Ok...when I first started I would cut all, or at least all I could, of the meat off and weigh the bones and meat by themsleves so that I would know what was what. I have heard of the 80-10-10 ration before. I have some reading to do tonight. Ugh I'm discouraged....


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Don't worry so much! It really isn't too difficult... just don't overthink it.  Getting the EXACT ratios isn't what's important, as they're more of a guideline. Definitely don't cut the bone from the meat, as that will take away some of the benefits of rawfeeding. 

Here is an article I wrote. Much of it will probably be "old news" for you, but some parts might be helpful:

*RAW PREY MODEL DIET*
*By: Nicki Simonson*

Some of the benefits of feeding raw: 
-fresh breath 
-diminished doggy odor 
-dogs are mentally stimulated 
-dogs generally eat their food right away 
-smaller poops 
-increased energy 
-shiny coats
-slower, steadier growth in puppies (important for large/giant breeds!)

The main points: 

-dogs should be fed 2% of their ideal adult body weight daily*
-the goal is 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs.* Igenerally try to balance this over a week's time.
-go slowly at first... too much, too fast can cause loose stool. 

*These percentages are guidelines. My GSD male needs a lot more than 2% because he has such a high metabolism and is constantly moving. Also, some dogs need more or less bone.. just look at the poop. If it's loose, add more bone. If the dog is constipated, add less bone.


I start new dogs on chicken. Many people buy whole chickens and cut them up, but I don’t like to deal with cutting them up so I buy leg quarters. (Bone in chicken breasts are generally a good choice for puppies, the bones are the easiest and there is a good bone to meat ratio). Check the sodium content: if it's over 80, it's enhanced and you'll want to pass. Most of the Gold N Plump sold at my local grocery store is un-enhanced. 

You can decide whether or not you want to take the skin and excess fat off the first few days. I did this for a couple of days when starting mine raw, but I don't believe I would've needed to. My dogs were just fine.

Simply hand your dog a chicken quarter (you can feed outside if you like... I fed inside at first because I wanted a more controlled environment). Don't be surprised if he doesn't immediately gobble it up. He may try to lick it to death first.

You'll want to feed nothing but chicken for the first couple of weeks. The bone content will be a bit high... but that's okay since bone = firm poops, and her tummy will be adjusting to the new food. 

Don't be surprised if your dog "guards" his food, even if he's never done this before. It is completely natural. Think about if you've been fed nothing but dry cereal your whole entire life and someone hands you a big, juicy steak. You'd guard that sucker, too! He WILL get used to the fact that he's going to get this fantastic food every day and become nonchalant about eating. The key is to NOT mess with his food. If you mess with his food, he'll start to worry that you will take it away. 

Don't be surprised if, once he starts to realize how amazingly good chicken is, he horks down his food and then almost immediately throws it up again. Let him eat it a second time (gross, I know, but it's what he'd do if he were a wolf in the wild). My Rottie occasionally does this and then seems to learn his lesson for a time... and for the next few days he'll eat much slower and more carefully. My German Shepherd female is an AMAZINGLY wonderful eater. She carefully chews everything. 

Your dog will be on just chicken for two weeks so that will give you plenty of time to choose your next protein source. I decided to go with pork, because it is inexpensive and readily available. When you start your second protein source, add just a bit of it to a chicken meal, so his tummy gets used to this new meat. Gradually increase the amount until you're feeding a full pork (or other protein) meal. Repeat these steps when adding beef, turkey, lamb, venison, etc. 

Most pork bones are fine for medium dogs on up, but smaller dogs will not be able to crunch some of the larger ones. I personally do not feed beef bones. They are generally too dense for all but the giant breed dogs. If your dog is careful and will eat around the bone without breaking his teeth trying to crunch it up, you can feed these “rec” bones. It will give your dog hours of entertainment and you some free time. ;-)

When adding organs, make sure you start small, since they are rich and can cause loose stool before the dog is used to them. Organs are the “powerhouse” when it comes to nutrients, vitamins, etc. If you compare organ meat with vegetables, you’ll find a lot of the same nutrients… but organs have a higher content. That is why dogs do not require veggies… because they’re getting what they need from the 10% organ in their diet. Wolves in the wild may munch on grass or eat stomach content, but they generally do this out of preference rather than need.

You must also add a source of Omega 3. It should be a protein source, and not flax based. Flax is not easily converted by dogs and many of them are actually allergic to it. I used to use salmon oil capsules, but with the recent lawsuits over PCPs in fish oil pills, I’ve started using canned sardines in water. I give each of my dogs a can of sardines 3x per week. A typical week looks like this:

Monday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, sardines
Tuesday: morning – chicken. Evening – beef, beef liver
Wednesday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork
Thursday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, sardines
Friday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, beef liver
Saturday: morning – chicken. Evening – beef, sardines
Sunday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork

I get other kinds of meat (turkey, lamb, etc.) when they are on sale. I get venison whenever I can… it’s the BEST for them…. Plus they love it!

Some final points: 

Rawfed dogs: 

1) Are eating what is 100% natural for them, meaning they will likely be healthier. 

2) Have amazingly white teeth and fresh breath, without the necessity of brushing their teeth or EXPENSIVE vet teeth cleanings. 

3) Have tiny small poops (less mess to clean up). 

Rawfeeding:
1) Can be cheaper than kibble (post on CL for free/cheap meat, search the weekly ads for meat bargains, buy soon to expire meat, etc. 

2) Means no stressful worrying when kibble gets recalled! 

3) is EASY! My dog was SUCH a picky eater and ate barely enough to stay alive. Now she eats with gusto and finishes her meal up promptly, meaning I don't have to worrya bout my other dog stealing her food, since he was a living vacuum when it comes to food of any type 

Some myths about rawfeeding: 
1) Rawfed dogs do NOT become bloodthirsty killers. They may become refrigerator magnets... since the fridge is The Door To All Things Good And Wonderful. 

2) Raw meat will not give dogs bacteria/e-coli poisoning. Dogs' digestive systems were made to handle food heavy in bacteria... they are very short and contain strong acid. Kibble takes longer to digest, and that is why you see e-coli/bacteria related recalls with kibble.

3) Raw chicken bones are not dangerous to dogs. Only cooked bones are dangerous, since they become hard and brittle and can splinter. 

Don't be surprised if many veterinarians do not support raw feeding. These vets certainly mean well, but were likely given incorrect information in vet school since the very few nutrition courses they took were likely sponsored by a pet food company (usually Hills (Science Diet), Iams or Eukanuba). Pet food companies are, of course, going to say that ONLY dog food is good for dogs. Additionally, with all there is to learn in vet school, there simply is not time to focus too much on nutrition. I have researched extensively and consulted with a canine nutritionist with years of training, schooling (including a master’s degree), research, and personal experience.

For more information, please feel free to:
-Email me at [email protected]
-Join the Yahoo Rawfeedinggroup: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

-Consult with a canine nutritionist: http://www.dogfoodguru.com/
-Check out the following sites:

http://rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.rawfed.com/
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://rawlearning.com/
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/index.html (for finding bone percentages)


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