# Behaviorist/trainer in Metro Detroit?



## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Hit a bit of a road bump last week with my little hot mess Della. First off, I want to start off saying I love Della very much. I'd say 65% of the time, she's a pretty good pup. She has finally been cleared as being healthy, and up to date on all her shots. Della does have some issues due to her mother dying so young and not being properly socialized. The main thing we were working on before I had a trainer come out (I will get to that), is to try to make her more independent. One of the unfortunate things that happened is Della imprinted very strongly on Lena since she was still so young. She would exhibit behavior like trying to nurse, mouth licking, etc. She is also very anxious, and we have been slowly crate training her to be by herself. She "prefers" to be in the same kennel with Lena, but I do not really support that behavior as I want her to be independent. Lena tolerated most of the behavior in stride, and actually was very helpful in getting Della to focus a little more since she was such a pro at a lot of the basic commands. SO, following other suggestions, I decided to have a trainer come out to my home to help me work with Della. I wanted to at least make sure Della was given more individualized attention so she could handle being in a situation without Lena. So trainer came out (not divulging name trainer was nice enough, but I think there's something better out there). Well, she had a hard time getting Della to focus. Some of that though I think was part of this individual not listening to me. I told her to NOT use food as she is food obsessed and has a hard time focusing. She did eventually get her into a sit/stay position, but it took about 20 minutes and Della was very antsy. High whining, ready to eat that food up. She said that Della needed someone who was more of a behaviorist than she was. 

So, in conclusion, are there any great recommendations on a trainer/behaviorist in the Oakland County area? Looking for personal one on one assistance. I want to set Della up for success, and I know I can only take things so far. Even though my husband exercises the girls 3-4 hours during the day and then I play with them for a couple hours when I get home. They are pretty pooped out most of the time, and seem content. But I am no behaviorist, and I don't want to inadvertently cause more harm than good. I can get her to focus if I use a toy though it's definitely not as interesting as food. I'm failing somewhere with Della, so please be kind and point me in the right direction. I know her dependency on Lena is not a good thing, and we have made a point to exercise them separately during the day, and together in the evening. Should I just stop doing that completely? If more info is needed, please ask. I also want to take some of this away from Lena as she has taken it upon herself to correct Della when she does things she's not supposed to. Case in point, Lena knows "nice kitty" and never chases the cats. Della gets so excited about sniffing their butts she just gets too friendly for the cats. Lena will normally walk over and scruff Della by the back of the neck, which usually causes Della to relax and stop doing that behavior. I only just recently noticed this, and was not sure if this was another behavior I should start correcting also...

Edit: We do take Della out as far as walking and shows no dog/people fear and/or aggression whatsoever.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think 99% of "behaviorists" are just grabbing the moniker without really understand behavior. Are you restricted in travel? Only Oakland County?


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Ehh, not very restricted...Macomb County isn't far for me either. I'm in the Pontiac/Waterford area, so like northern Oakland County. If it was a really good person, I may be able to work it out. Or even one willing to come to me even though I know that's normally more $


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would look at some IPO clubs and ask them for options. I swear they know the best trainers everywhere. They know who uses compulsion, who clicker trains, who is tops with dogs and who is just getting by.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

OK that's where I will start then. It seems like I'm kind of in a dead zone when it comes to actual behaviorist. I was reading a thread here and a lot of those places are pretty far for me...I wanted to go to that guy Gustavo that people kept mentioning, but 1 hr 45 minutes is the travel time to that area which honestly would be hard on Della. That's why I almost prefer someone who wouldn't mind doing a few sessions at my home first. I just don't want her stressing out too much on such a long trip.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gustavo that Jane goes to? I watched him at Nationals. Nice dog!

Why would that be hard on her? Does she stress that much? If you don't give her stress, how do you think she will learn to cope with it? Has she driven distances before?

germanshepherddog.com has the IPO clubs listed for regions.

btw...I drive 2.5 hours to each trainer I go to. It's well worth the trip. Those good trainers pack a lot into an hour.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Gustavo that Jane goes to? I watched him at Nationals. Nice dog!
> 
> Why would that be hard on her? Does she stress that much? If you don't give her stress, how do you think she will learn to cope with it? Has she driven distances before?
> 
> ...


Though neither of the girls really like the car, Della I will venture to say hates it. We've been working on it slowly, reward/praise along with short little trips in the truck just to try to get her adjusted to being in it. But normally it doesn't last long before she's heavy panting, crying, and sometimes she vomits. I know I should push her more, but she's still so young I don't want to push her so far that it does more harm then good. Please correct my logic M if this is incorrect.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hmmm...wonder if it's not anxiety. Sounds more like car sickness. Does she drool? Cerenia worked for Seger. Also the crate rear facing so he can't look forward or out the sides.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> btw...I drive 2.5 hours to each trainer I go to. It's well worth the trip. Those good trainers pack a lot into an hour.


I agree! Good trainers who understand the breed are worth their weight in gold. They are so worth the drive.

Depending on what you are working on/your goals, I have found that I don't have to go every week. I also get my problems fixed faster with a knowledgeable trainer even though I am not going as often.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mspiker03 said:


> I agree! Good trainers who understand the breed are worth their weight in gold. They are so worth the drive.
> 
> Depending on what you are working on/your goals, I have found that I don't have to go every week. I also get my problems fixed faster with a knowledgeable trainer even though I am not going as often.


Yup yup!


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> hmmm...wonder if it's not anxiety. Sounds more like car sickness. Does she drool? Cerenia worked for Seger. Also the crate rear facing so he can't look forward or out the sides.


No drooling really, but she exhibits this behavior also when she is separated too long from Lena. For example, Della will not go outside to go potty without Lena. If I "trick" her into going out by herself she is usually ok until she realizes Lena is not there. Same thing happens minus the vomiting. She just cries and she does this long high pitched cry and then promptly sits outside the door until either I let her in, or let Lena out. Lena could care less, she just does what she wants whether or not Della is there. Della seems to be the one who is dependent, not Lena. And I think you are both right, it may seem like a long drive but if I don't have to do it often, perhaps it's something to consider. You have to understand, my son has autism and my husband has PTSD so basically this is falling on me. Which I don't mind, but sometimes I am just working a standard 40 hour week, and sometimes I am working 60+ hours since I am salary. I think I was just being overly hopeful on having someone come out to me. Even though it would be more money upfront, it saves me on filling up my Chevy 1500 just to commute there and back all the time. But basically I am thinking a few trips and perhaps I can get her at least into a better place to make a more localized training class actually a reality. Lena is about to start her training next week, but I know Della isn't ready for that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the answer is going to be to break Della of Lena. Kind of when horses are pastured together and they get bound to each other. I watched one horse go NUTS. Screaming and racing back and forth in the mud. We thought she was going to break a leg. It's going to be some tough love. Sounds like you have a situation similar to when you get littermates and they bond with each other rather than the person.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Wish I could help. I don't know anyone in that area, unfortunately.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I think the answer is going to be to break Della of Lena. Kind of when horses are pastured together and they get bound to each other. I watched one horse go NUTS. Screaming and racing back and forth in the mud. We thought she was going to break a leg. It's going to be some tough love. Sounds like you have a situation similar to when you get littermates and they bond with each other rather than the person.


Yes I agree, this has to be done. I have been doing it slowly. What's funny is yes she is very dependent of Lena, but she is also very dependent of my husband and I. When she gets upset, she has to run over to one of us and bury her head into us and wants us to stroke her until she comes down. I know my husband does this mostly because she is stuck to him like glue. I try to distract her more to get her mind off of being anxious and working. Usually I start by getting her into a sit and playing little training games with her. Half the time it works, half the time it doesn't. My husband says he does this, but I am not always there to verify this is true lol. He's a big pushover when it comes to Della, she is his little princess.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Wish I could help. I don't know anyone in that area, unfortunately.


I know you would D I appreciate your thoughts though!!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Get crates...the dogs don't like it? Tough. Eventually they realize that either they can't do anything about it or they get to go somewhere more fun when they get into the crate.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't use food with a dog that is food motivated in order to get focus. Everyone uses food to get focus, so it seems like this would be the easiest thing to do. You just have to show the dog that focus gets it the food reward. With a young puppy...it's not very hard to withhold the reward.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Get crates...the dogs don't like it? Tough. Eventually they realize that either they can't do anything about it or they get to go somewhere more fun when they get into the crate.
> 
> I'm not sure why you wouldn't use food with a dog that is food motivated in order to get focus. Everyone uses food to get focus, so it seems like this would be the easiest thing to do. You just have to show the dog that focus gets it the food reward. With a young puppy...it's not very hard to withhold the reward.


They both have crates and Della is fine in a crate when she's in there with Lena. I don't allow that, so they have separate crates. My husband is home all day anyways, so he very rarely goes out. But Della can get very destructive and will bite at the metal bars to try to get to Lena. And no, I don't like using food for reward because she has food obsession. Once you pull out food, she no longer cares about anything else. I have found that she is much more likely to complete a command with her favorite chewy toy. And trust me, I already had a trainer over there and she even said it has been a long time since she seen a dog that was so food motivated/obsessed that it interfered with her completing a command.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

One thing I will not mess around with is crate anxiety. 

The whole "tough, they'll get over it" thing is not always true. I have known dogs to harm themselves close to death requiring a lot of vet bills when this was attempted with heavy duty crates. It's a better idea to work towards addressing the reason for the problem and changing the associations than it is to put them in a "sink or swim" situation.

I have had dogs myself that have severely injured themselves in crates or while escaping, and it's not pretty to deal with. I highly advise not going that route.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> One thing I will not mess around with is crate anxiety.
> 
> The whole "tough, they'll get over it" thing is not always true. I have known dogs to harm themselves close to death requiring a lot of vet bills when this was attempted with heavy duty crates. It's a better idea to work towards addressing the reason for the problem and changing the associations than it is to put them in a "sink or swim" situation.
> 
> I have had dogs myself that have severely injured themselves in crates or while escaping, and it's not pretty to deal with. I highly advise not going that route.


Yes, we have been working on slowly allowing her more and more time in a crate next to Lena. I figured this would be easier. But we did have a little oops a few days ago. My husband had to run to Home Depot and figured this was a good time to practice. He puts the girls in their crates and gives them ice cubes (they love them and helps them look forward to going into the crate). Well, he ended up getting stuck there about 30 minutes longer then planned. Needless to say, we are now going to purchase another dog bed for Della as she ripped out the zipper and proceeded to kill all the stuffing. I have the photo and both of the dogs look so guilty (Lena I guess thought she was guilty by association). But we did not yell or get mad at her, my husband just let them out and cleaned everything up. We figured she doesn't really understand why she acts this way, and don't want to make her anxiety worse by being loud and aggressive with her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sierra broke teeth on a crate. It's an anxiety that needs to be fixed not toughed out.

I'm kind of getting the feeling you are babying her though? How about allowing her less time in a crate with Lena in the room? I wonder if you can break the bond with Lena if that would help?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If you want her to be more independent, I'd concentrate on little things that let her be successful, on her own. Walk her on a flexie and let her wander and explore as much as she wants. No real structure to it. If she's that food driven, spread the food around on the ground and let her hunt for it. Maybe channel that into tracking. Hide some food here and there in the house and let her hunt for it. But don't be too much a part of it, let it be self rewarding as much as possible, not looking to you for any kind of reward.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

fyi, them destroying the bed does not necessarily mean it's an anxiety. 

My dogs don't get blankets in their crates, let alone pillows because they will destroy them and my current crew has no anxiety in the crate.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Sierra broke teeth on a crate. It's an anxiety that needs to be fixed not toughed out.
> 
> I'm kind of getting the feeling you are babying her though? *How about allowing her less time in a crate with Lena in the room?* I wonder if you can break the bond with Lena if that would help?


I won't lie I probably am babying her just a bit. That's why I want to work with someone, because I want to find that median of comfort/leadership if that makes sense. Can you elaborate more on the bolded statement? Are you saying crate her and allow Lena just to be in the room without being crated?


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> If you want her to be more independent, I'd concentrate on little things that let her be successful, on her own. Walk her on a flexie and let her wander and explore as much as she wants. No real structure to it. If she's that food driven, spread the food around on the ground and let her hunt for it. Maybe channel that into tracking. Hide some food here and there in the house and let her hunt for it. But don't be too much a part of it, let it be self rewarding as much as possible, not looking to you for any kind of reward.


This is a great idea Steve, and something I know I can implement right away. She's extremely active and I know she can do it, I just need the right tools to be able to make her more independent. I know part of my sensitive side is coming out because I know what kind of situation she came out of. I want to be firm, but not cruel...


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> fyi, them destroying the bed does not necessarily mean it's an anxiety.
> 
> My dogs don't get blankets in their crates, let alone pillows because they will destroy them and my current crew has no anxiety in the crate.


I'm going to have to send you the picture later on. They had the absolute guiltiest faces on. Lena's not much of a chewer and doesn't destroy things. Della though, I am constantly correcting her because she tends to chew on whatever is closest to her. I caught her chewing on my wooden stairs the other day. I told her "Leave It" and re-directed with her chewy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There are two good groups you can look into in your area. Gustavo is primarily IPO, he isn't one to do pet training.
The groups I'm referring you to may have some trainers willing to work with you, or you can get with the clubs, depending on what you want. The first one is BackwoodsK9 in Waterford, the other is Blue Water, near Flint.
Blue Waters website looks out of date, they are on fb though. https://www.facebook.com/BlueWaterWorkingDogs I've trained with both and like the people in both groups, though Blue Water is again, IPO based and many of the handlers are not 'trainers' but handlers for their own dogs.
Another person I'd recommend is Anna at Home she is in Fenton, I believe.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> They both have crates and Della is fine in a crate when she's in there with Lena. I don't allow that, so they have separate crates. My husband is home all day anyways, so he very rarely goes out. But Della can get very destructive and will bite at the metal bars to try to get to Lena. And no, I don't like using food for reward because she has food obsession. Once you pull out food, she no longer cares about anything else. I have found that she is much more likely to complete a command with her favorite chewy toy. And trust me, I already had a trainer over there and she even said it has been a long time since she seen a dog that was so food motivated/obsessed that it interfered with her completing a command.


Crates for the car...each dog gets their own. You're there the whole time so you can monitor what they do. Plus they shouldn't get crazy anxious anyways because you're right there with them. That way, even if she gets car sick, she makes a mess in a crate and not all over your car. 

As far as the food...focus isn't a command. You should teach your dog to focus on you first. If she's food driven, you bring the food to where you want her to look. Moment she looks at you, mark it (click or word), then give her a treat. If she's that terribly obsessed, it might take more time for her to realize what you want, but she will eventually because she'll figure out that looking at your face (or eyes) is what gets her what she wants. You just have to be patient. This is a much better problem to have than a dog that has absolutely no food drive.

Teach her to focus first, then work on commands after that.

Separate obedience sessions, and successes for the more dependent dog will also give her more confidence and hopefully teach her to be more independent.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I mean to counter condition her to be by herself. Break the bond with Lena. Have her spend less time with Lena beside her. Have you tried Crate Games? I love it.



Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I know part of my sensitive side is coming out because I know what kind of situation she came out of. I want to be firm, but not cruel...


This right here. Don't Care where she came from. Get it out of your head. Forget her past. Look at the dog in front of you. I have a nerve bag boxer that sounds a lot like Della. Came from a bad situation. we made excuses. Do NOT baby this dog. Been there, done that, cut the check. Be firm, set rules. Do not let her have a person she hides behind. Been there, can't get near my husband. Can't sit on teh couch with him. Rules!!

Get her in to something that will build confidence. she's to young for agility but there may be starter classes with ground work after you put some obedience on her.

And consider your time in training, YOUR time. You need to take time for yourself as well, my friend.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Martem and M u r both right and will change things up. I'm normally not a big gushy person, but I adore Della. She is very good with my son and I enjoy having her. Just want to do the very best I can


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> There are two good groups you can look into in your area. Gustavo is primarily IPO, he isn't one to do pet training.
> The groups I'm referring you to may have some trainers willing to work with you, or you can get with the clubs, depending on what you want. The first one is BackwoodsK9 in Waterford, the other is Blue Water, near Flint.
> Blue Waters website looks out of date, they are on fb though. https://www.facebook.com/BlueWaterWorkingDogs I've trained with both and like the people in both groups, though Blue Water is again, IPO based and many of the handlers are not 'trainers' but handlers for their own dogs.
> Another person I'd recommend is Anna at Home she is in Fenton, I believe.


Thank you I had seen the one in Waterford on some online searches, but kind of forgot about them to be honest. This would be ideal for me as I am on the Pontiac/Waterford border. VERY much appreciated thank you!
Edit: It's in White Lake, but that's still very close to me


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> This right here. Don't Care where she came from. Get it out of your head. Forget her past. Look at the dog in front of you. I have a nerve bag boxer that sounds a lot like Della. Came from a bad situation. we made excuses. Do NOT baby this dog. Been there, done that, cut the check. Be firm, set rules. Do not let her have a person she hides behind. Been there, can't get near my husband. Can't sit on teh couch with him. Rules!!
> 
> Get her in to something that will build confidence. she's to young for agility but there may be starter classes with ground work after you put some obedience on her.
> 
> And consider your time in training, YOUR time. You need to take time for yourself as well, my friend.


I totally agree with Michelle, my poodle is a total basket case (BYB and all) and I thought I was doing well with her but was still having some issues. I know a good behaviorist and asked him for his opinion and he watched me with her and pointed out that the issues that were still lingering was because I was pushing too hard in some cases and not pushing hard enough in others. I wasn't realizing it myself and once I worked on that it was like flicking a light switch and we worked so much better together

Consistency is key for fearful dogs, they draw strength from rules and boundaries because they are predictable and therefore safe. Learning thresholds as well is huge, there are moments you will need to push her and it will break your heart but you have to remind yourself it's for her own benefit. There are also moments where she will need you to stand beside her and be that reassuring presence.

It sounds like you have some good suggestions for trainers and I hope you can find one that will suit you and her. I don't believe Jazzy will ever be 'normal' but I do believe I can give her a life where she will thrive and that's what I strive to do every day. A good trainer will set you on the right path


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Shade said:


> I totally agree with Michelle, my poodle is a total basket case (BYB and all) and I thought I was doing well with her but was still having some issues. I know a good behaviorist and asked him for his opinion and he watched me with her and pointed out that the issues that were still lingering was because I was pushing too hard in some cases and not pushing hard enough in others. I wasn't realizing it myself and once I worked on that it was like flicking a light switch and we worked so much better together
> 
> Consistency is key for fearful dogs, they draw strength from rules and boundaries because they are predictable and therefore safe. Learning thresholds as well is huge, there are moments you will need to push her and it will break your heart but you have to remind yourself it's for her own benefit. There are also moments where she will need you to stand beside her and be that reassuring presence.
> 
> It sounds like you have some good suggestions for trainers and I hope you can find one that will suit you and her. I don't believe Jazzy will ever be 'normal' but I do believe I can give her a life where she will thrive and that's what I strive to do every day. A good trainer will set you on the right path


Yes I agree with her also. I kinda knew deep down that what was going on, sometimes you just need someone else to point it out to you. Della is BYB stock so who knows what sort of behaviors she will start exhibiting. I really believe that helping her build her confidence and perhaps channeling all this anxiety and/or excitement into a more positive activity seems a very reasonable route. She's still young, so I am formulating my plan now so it doesn't become more of a habit for her and I can nip it in the bud so to speak. The good thing is I finally broke her of trying to eat cat poo so that's always good lol...Hopefully I can help channel her food obsession also. You would swear the way she acts, that she never eats. I usually have to take her outside right away so Lena can eat in peace (Lena's a slow eater)...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> he good thing is I finally broke her of trying to eat cat poo so that's always good lol...


Wanna share that secret????


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Wanna share that secret????


LMAO well the 1st thing I did was work very hard at making them not accessible to her. She's a brave little thing when she really wants something, and will do whatever she can to get to it. I made sure to clean the boxes constantly as to keep the "snack bar' empty lol. We also changed the boxes we used. I had the open ones, but ended up getting the enclosed ones so it was harder for her to get in there. When that was working but not really eliminating the problem, I made it a priority to my husband to keep a really good eye on her, and we took this time to practice "Leave It" and then giving her something she really really wants as far as food. The only thing that has kinda happened is now when we tell her to leave it, she still expects some food, and will give me a puzzled look like, "OK I didn't eat it, so where's the good stuff". There was 1 other thing that helped out also to sort of end the problem. I started using some apple bitter spray and basically was putting that on for a bit so she started thinking that it always tasted bad. That is what actually kind of tipped the scales in my favor. If it no longer tastes good, don't eat it right? LOL.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I'd contact Steve Robinson and his people in Ortonville. VERY experienced with GSDs.

Common Scents Canine Center Inc Puppy Training Class Behavior Counseling


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## Hemi07 (Dec 16, 2014)

Is Plymouth too far. I went to Michigan Dog Training. The owner, Michael is a former K9 officer and trainer. He is very good with GSD.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Plymouth is not far as well as Ortonville. Thank you for those suggestions also, way closer for me!


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