# DDR lines for family companion or not??



## neal52 (Jan 3, 2014)

Hello,
New member who has spent many hours poring through the archives and reading up on threads like "genetic obedience" & "iceberg breders" etc. 

I intend to get a GSD later this year and am trying to do my homework so I can select the right breeder. But I am only looking for a family companion and possibly do some obedience, so no schutzhund or other sport work.

And I'm a novice owner (and have kids) so I'm not interested in a drivey or dominant dog, just a calm, stable, moderate dog. With a BIG off switch.

However, I am VERY confused. 

On threads like the "Genetic Obedience" one, the old DDR herding lines are praised for what they bring to the table in terms of biddability and obedience. They are also considered affectionate, handler soft & pack oriented. Many threads said these are what you want for a good companion as they are stable even dogs. So thats good!

Though I was surprised by this as I though those dogs were used for border protection as they were bred to be more aggressive in general.

But then I have come across some posts where experienced posters on the forum say DDR dogs are not for novice handlers, that they are too much:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/150066-late-bloomer-2.html

So all of a sudden I find myself back at square one, are DDR dogs good for novices or not? 
Or do I go for WGSL, but then where do I find old herding lines in WGSL? (plus I hate the roach back).

Also where do I find breeders who are breeding non-extreme drive DDR dogs? 

I fear that even a lower drive dog in some of these sport breedings may be too much for me. And whilst there are lots of breeders for schutzhund I am not seeing any breeding for "family companion" (in fact I fear this is a dirty word and by saying this I may be scorned & get the weakest pup in the litter).

After spending literally hours a day going through the archives I find myself more confused than ever wondering what lines and which breeders? 

Is it supposed to be so difficult? I'm almost ready to throw in the towel! :help:


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Take a deep breath!

Find quality breeders and ask them to help you pick a puppy.

Pups may differ in the same litter, but a hands on breeder will know.. Also good breeders are often very helpful in finding a pup if they don't or won't have what you're looking for.

Just know that any pup will tax you while young. These well behaved dogs weren't born that way. Just like each of your children needs training, so will a puppy.

might help forum if you post where you live

Good luck


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

A gsd of any line can be a great pet. Just tell a good reputable breeder that you just want a pet and nothing more. Dr, Czech, working line, etc doesn't automatically mean high energy or high drive. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Its all in the breeding and the breeder. A good breeder will know what litter will most likely produce the type of puppy you are looking for and will give a dog that is right for you. They will not sell you the dog that they have if it is not a right fit...that doesn't help anyone. I know of a breeder that allowed someone to pick their puppy, and the pups were 3 weeks old. Their personalities are not developed at that point and you can't tell which is going to be the right dog for the buyer. 

I would say reach out to the top 5 breeders on your list and pick their brains. Go with the one that you feel most comfortable with AND the one that will give you service after the sale. Being a "novice" as you put it, you will require that. 

We have all been there, I researched for over 18 months, the waited for my pup another 9 months. Well worth it!

Good luck.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> *where do I find old herding lines in WGSL? (plus I hate the roach back).*
> I fear that even a lower drive dog in some of these sport breedings may be too much for me. And whilst there are lots of breeders for schutzhund I am not seeing any breeding for "family companion" (in fact I fear this is a dirty word and by saying this I may be scorned & get the weakest pup in the litter).


The WGSL's aren't all roach backed. Kirschental lines would be one to check out.

The DDR lines's aren't what I'd consider 'sport' dogs. 
And as posted above, you can get a great companion dog from any line, choosing the right breeder is key in that, however.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"On threads like the "Genetic Obedience" one, the old DDR herding lines are praised for what they bring to the table in terms of biddability and obedience. They are also considered affectionate, handler soft & pack oriented. Many threads said these are what you want for a good companion as they are stable even dogs. So thats good!"

Being DDR does not automatically fit them into this category.
This is still a trait that has to be understood, then deliberately chosen for . 
Even so , having the trait does not mean that the dog should be raised in a permissive manner, without parameters . They are not born trained . 
And, surprise , surprise many of the "ddr" dogs that are circulating now are not the old style , in fact it is a shame that many are bred for superficial qualities -- the colour , the look, the head , the bone , the black sable. 
You don't need a dog from any particular segment of GSD dogdom.


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## fredh (Sep 10, 2013)

My Jake is half DDR (Mother) and Father from W Germany. Couldn't have asked for a better balanced Dog.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Dax is 50/50 DDR/Czech and he's pretty good as a companion. Still needs time to burn some energy and whatnot but nothing that's extreme.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree finding a breeder who can match you to your 'wants' and 'don't wants' is much more important than the 'lines'.

I have always had DDR dogs in one form or another..I find them to be late maturers especially the males , biddable, and easy trainers..but that is "my" dogs..certainly not a map for all..

Right now I have a slovak/czech/ddr female who just turned 6,,got her 'off switch' as she matured, easy for "me" to live with, maybe not someone else or one who's never had a gsd...Not extreme, but does require alot of attention..


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> Dax is 50/50 DDR/Czech and he's pretty good as a companion. Still needs time to burn some energy and whatnot but nothing that's extreme.



sorry too late to edit. But definitely finding a breeder you're comfortable with that's responsible in their breeding practices is more important because they'll be able to pick the puppy that's best for your needs and desires as others have mentioned.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

My mother had GSDs, I was a jr handler, at 18 I took a dog through SchH. My 4th GSD was a DDR, he taught me I had so much to learn.



neal52 said:


> On threads like the "Genetic Obedience" one, the old DDR herding lines are praised for what they bring to the table in terms of biddability and obedience. They are also considered affectionate, handler soft & pack oriented. Many threads said these are what you want for a good companion as they are stable even dogs. So thats good!
> 
> Though I was surprised by this as I though those dogs were used for border protection as they were bred to be more aggressive in general.


The two DDRs I've had, still have one now were/are very bonded to their handler. Never want to do a 'bad; thing just because it's fun. Loyal, loving, confident and very stable. 

Also not for the novice. It kinda scares me how Otto might have turned out exactly like Luther if he'd gone like Luther did to an inexperienced home. Luther was the full on DDR experience so coming after him, Otto gets away with nothing. Headstrong stubborn dogs. Lots of rules and structure while being very rewarding.

My female is a blend of mostly west german lines, with some old american working lines (not slope backed hock walking american lines, actual working dogs) and just a bit of DDR. Enough to give her a great sense of humor. My DDRs were always full of good humor and smiles, while my other west german dogs seemed humorless until you figured out their humor is black.

Venus is probably exactly what you're looking for. Not over the top protective although she's recently been showing she knows when to step up. So loyal I can't go to the bathroom alone. Excellent with my children, all children and loves humans. Very obedient, loves to work. 

Crooked Creek Ranch in MO (also home of howling dog hotsauce on the pepper ranch LOL). Karen used to be a member of this forum but now she's mostly on facebook now. She does an excellent job getting to know her puppies so she can match the dog to the owner. Venus came to me in a crate at the airport, ready to learn, ready to love and ready to just move into my house like she'd always been here.


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## neal52 (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks for the replies.

For someone trying to do it right and be a responsible prospective GSD owner its confusing.

I'll forget all this bloodlines research and shall contact some breeders on my list, but I wish some of the breeder websites talked more about their dogs temperament rather than how hard they bite the sleeve.

Having a kid at home means I don't care how hard the dog bites or how intense it is, I just want temperament. Something that not many breeder websites describe about their dogs. 

Also compiling a recommended list off the forum is difficult because recommendations are subjective, someone into very drivey intense dogs will be enthused about a dog that I would hate and vice versa ...


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

You probably want to stay away from breeders who brag about how hard their dog hits the sleeve.

Go meet the breeders and meet the dogs. Otto's mother was an absolute love, she was Grafental lines. Many people say they're DDR lite. All of the looks, watered down on the substance. Otto's intensity comes from his father - who came from much lesser known lines. Yet he got his mother's sweetness.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

SunCzarina said:


> You probably want to stay away from breeders who brag about how hard their dog hits the sleeve.
> 
> Go meet the breeders and meet the dogs. Otto's mother was an absolute love, she was Grafental lines. Many people say they're DDR lite. All of the looks, watered down on the substance. Otto's intensity comes from his father - who came from much lesser known lines. Yet he got his mother's sweetness.


Lol...that's exactly the type of breeder one should be supporting. One that is known for "watered down on substance" dogs.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

What know you of Grafentals, it's a nice line. Just more on the showy side of DDR lines.

The mother was a good match to a very intense male. None of those pups would have made a good match to a novice home.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

neal52 said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> For someone trying to do it right and be a responsible prospective GSD owner its confusing.
> 
> ...


 
Stick around the forum. You'll learn more than you ever thoughts possible. One things breeders do when talking about their dog biting the sleeve, its a draw in. The good ones WANT to talk to you about what you are looking for before they give you more information on their dogs. 

One thing to remember, a dog with a solid temperament, is usually going to be the dog you see out on the sport field gaining the IPO titles. Those sleeve bites require discipline. Be honest with yourself on what you're looking for. If you're honest with yourself, its easier to be honest with the breeder. A good solid breeder will pick you out a good solid puppy that best fits your needs. 

My boy is a little over a year old. Here's his sire. . . 
Asko

Asko is a sport dog. Stable temperament. 

Here's his dam....
Dragon

Dragon is a sport dog. Stable temperament. Both dogs do bite work. Solidly because they're titled. 

My boy has a nice temperament, gains more and more confidence by the day and lives to please me no matter how long it may or may not take him to figure out the best way to do that. He's great with kids, adores my 4 and 6 year old, though still learning to be less energetic. He has a stable temperament with the ability to do just about anything we want to try. 

His breeder was very honest with me about the breeding and that he would be a good fit for my needs in a dog as well as future possibilities. So far, he's been fabulous. Learn, talk to breeders. Trust them to pick the right breeding and puppy for you since you're new at it. 
They know their dogs best. The bite work pictures and descriptions are pretty standard for WL breeders. Its the pull in.


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## NateB (Nov 16, 2012)

I appreciate the OP bringing this subject up. I too have spent hours on the forums, reading archives etc. I have been actively researching GSD lines for the past 5 years and I am still not sure exactly what I want even though I am narrowing. I think I would like a DDR or WGWL line puppy with a semi high prey drive. Anyone have any dogs like this that can comment on life with a family with small children?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You will have the greatest success if you find a breeder who breeds to a long term goal , is able to demonstrate success , asks as many questions of you as you of them .
A dog with balance , won't have semi high prey drive , they will have the balance within their make-up where any one drive does not override and get out of control.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

NateB said:


> I think I would like a DDR or WGWL line puppy with a semi high prey drive. Anyone have any dogs like this that can comment on life with a family with small children?


My DDR Otto is often in hyperdrive but both my DDR and WGWL are excellent with my children. They were 3 and 5 when we got Otto and 8 and 10 when we got the Venus. My oldest has Aspergers so he can be weird with dogs but the dogs just both get it - that one is different.

Like anything else, you get back what you put into it. I was very strict with the puppies and the children. Still am even though Otto is 6 in a couple weeks. 

He requires a much firmer, more consistent handler than Venus does, even though she's only 16months. Otto pushes his luck, gets talked to like I'm a drill sargent opposed to Venus who's my utt utt Lovely. How I have to handle him because he's rough, Venus would melt and she's not a soft dog. She's just softer than Otto is.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

I have a 5 year old female from DDR bloodlines and a 2 year male from primarily west german working lines. These are not our first GSDs. I also have kids who are now 11 and 7. Both dogs are good family dogs, but that does not happen automatically. When it comes to dogs and kids, the education and “training” of the kids is every bit as important as the education and training of the dogs. I am fortunate in that my kids are pretty dog smart, know how to handle themselves, and are involved in the training and care of the dogs. 

I think much of the generalizations about the lines is just talk without much meaning. Neither of my dogs fit neatly into the stereotypes associated with the lines. My DDR female has good drive, did not mature slowly, and is not handler soft. Very easy in the house and very attentive to the kids. If there is ever a kid crying, she is off like a shot to lick tears, clean cuts, and stand watch. One of her nicknames is “Nanny” - pretty self explanatory. Now, she can be a handful when out and about. Then, she can be independent and stubborn. She’s is going to do what she wants to do (which usually involves tracking, hunting, and chasing things) unless you have a means of stopping her. Low prey/hunt threshhold. All it takes is a rustle in the bushes or her catching a scent and she is off in her own world. She will never be accused of being biddable, let alone having genetic obedience. 

My WGWL male is high drive, high everything. However, he has the temperament and nerve that allow him to do well in a family setting. He is the most bonded, tuned-in, affectionate, and biddable animal I have ever been around. Madly in love with and devoted to family, but otherwise has a serious world view that needs to be accounted for. Not a happy-go-lucky, social butterfly. 

While I think both dogs are easy to live with and both do well with the kids, the ride has not been without occasional bumps and blips. We deal with them, learn from them, and move on. Everything is relative. We don’t sweat the small stuff, don’t expect our GSDs to act like anything other than GSDs, and have a high tolerance for chaos, lol. What may seem easy and second nature in my house may seem overwhelming to someone else and vica versa. Neither of my dogs, and in particular the male, would be a good fit for a meek, permissive person seeking a dog with a golden retriever temperament. 

I agree with the advice being given about focusing on finding a good breeder who produces what you are looking for. Don’t get too hung up on the lines and the pedigree talk. Just because a dog is DDR does not mean it is going to be a certain way. Similarly, just because a dog has dog X in the pedigree, does not mean your dog will be like dog X. Educate yourself to the point where you can separate the wheat from the chaff and distinguish between BS and legitimate information. I personally think it is a good idea to look for a breeder who has experience with many generations of the dogs he or she is breeding. Be honest with yourself and honest with the breeder about your capabilities, what you want, and your living situation. Be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it! Listen to the breeder. Good luck.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

jmdjack , excellent post. I might like both of your dogs , for the same and for different reasons, because dogs, like ourselves, are complex dynamic beings . 
As far as DDR dogs , the one's that I see around "now" are not the same that I experienced 1989 and on . 
Grafental is not the same as it was in the day of Bodo Grafental , but then Kirschental is not the same dog as in the day of Uwe Kirschental and previous generations.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yup!


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## dzg (Apr 23, 2012)

carmspack said:


> You will have the greatest success if you find a breeder who breeds to a long term goal , is able to demonstrate success , asks as many questions of you as you of them .


Yes and yes, BUT where does one find such breeders? 

I can totally relate to the OP's confusion, been there and done that.

This forum is generally heavily geared towards schutzhund and sporting enthusiasts .. this then colours opinions on whats considered "too drivey" or "too intense" ... the makeup of a good dog is highly subjective and relative to ones desires and needs.

So apart from talking to 30 - 40 breeders what else does one do?
And how many can you visit, breeders are a busy lot.
Seems like a crap shoot. You get lucky or maybe not.

There seems to be no magic formula - even researching bloodlines - which a novice (like myself) thought is the sure thing seems to be disproved as just getting a dog with lines going back to the old herding dogs means nothing without a whole breeding program behind them. Couple that with the old ddr lines (grafentals, kirschentals etc) having morphed ... it makes one want to give up and get a labra-doodle! lol

p.s. Why doesn't this forum have a sticky of recommended breeders?? 
It would make life so much easier for those who are trying to do their research and become responsible owners ... which perhaps would be the greatest service this forum can provide to the breed.

Failing that I guess the flashy websites with the nice graphics and fancy "bite-dog" pics are the ones that will get the buyers $$.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> p.s. Why doesn't this forum have a sticky of recommended breeders??
> It would make life so much easier for those who are trying to do their research and become responsible owners ... which perhaps would be the greatest service this forum can provide to the breed.


There is a guide that was put together by wildwolf, breeders and GSD enthusiasts helped with the information provided.
Links for responsible breeders are included on the site.
It is a good starting point, and there are also many facebook pages specific to certain lines. 
German Shepherd Guide - Home
It is always a great idea to do as much research as possible before buying a puppy. That includes getting out and seeing different dogs in training. One reason I enjoy going to a pay to train type club, you see so many different lines, breeds, people....you seldom get that in a member only exclusive type club.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IMO, if you fear that a GSD as it is meant to be, a versatile working dog, may be too much for you or may not fit your lifestyle, you should look to another breed, not attempt to find a breeder that breeds below the standard.

There are many companion breeds out there with wonderful temperaments. Why try and pound a square peg into a round hole?


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## dzg (Apr 23, 2012)

David Winners said:


> IMO, if you fear that a GSD as it is meant to be, a versatile working dog, may be too much for you or may not fit your lifestyle, you should look to another breed, not attempt to find a breeder that breeds below the standard.


So a breeder who breeds for what the OP is looking for is *breeding below the standard*?
And this is coming for a forum moderator?! Yikes!

If thats the case you really shouldn't use the word "versatile" to describe _your version_ of the GSD.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

dzg said:


> So a breeder who breeds for what the OP is looking for is *breeding below the standard*?
> And this is coming for a forum moderator?! Yikes!
> 
> If thats the case you really shouldn't use the word "versatile" to describe _your version_ of the GSD.


 
The standard is in place for a reason. The creator of the breed wanted certain things in the breed. His biggest was that breeders make sure the breed stayed a working breed. Watering a breed down to suit the masses does a huge disservice. GSDs are not for everyone just like goldens aren't for everyone or Chihuahua's aren't for everyone. Each breed was created with a purpose. They're a versatile breed, yes, but they're still a working dog. There will be calmer puppies in a litter to fit that of a family companion while others of the same litter will make fabulous police dogs or sport dogs. Those family companion dogs in the litter still need time and energy and more time to get them to greatness. If you cant give that to the dog, you are doing a disservice to the dog and your family by not doing what you need to do as a responsible owner for them. That goes for any breed. Dogs require time, energy, training, etc. They want and need to be involved in your life. If you can't handle the responsibilities that come with a dog, get a cat. Low maintenance, mostly independent and don't mind overmuch if you go on a week long vacation and leave them at home as long as their litter box is clean, they have food in their bowl to last them and water to drink. 

Watering down a breed does nobody any good.


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## dzg (Apr 23, 2012)

kzoppa, I didn't see the OP saying any of that in his post, maybe I should start reading in between the lines .... is that a forum requirement?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dzg said:


> So a breeder who breeds for what the OP is looking for is *breeding below the standard*?
> And this is coming for a forum moderator?! Yikes!
> 
> If thats the case you really shouldn't use the word "versatile" to describe _your version_ of the GSD.


Where did I say that the OP was looking for anything in particular? Please don't put words in my mouth.

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dzg said:


> kzoppa, I didn't see the OP saying any of that in his post, maybe I should start reading in between the lines .... is that a forum requirement?


This is a discussion. Not everything is about the OP. It happens.

And being a MOD doesn't preclude me from having an opinion.

David Winners


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

dzg said:


> So a breeder who breeds for what the OP is looking for is *breeding below the standard*?
> And this is coming for a forum moderator?! Yikes!
> 
> If thats the case you really shouldn't use the word "versatile" to describe _your version_ of the GSD.





KZoppa said:


> The standard is in place for a reason. The creator of the breed wanted certain things in the breed. His biggest was that breeders make sure the breed stayed a working breed. Watering a breed down to suit the masses does a huge disservice. GSDs are not for everyone just like goldens aren't for everyone or Chihuahua's aren't for everyone. Each breed was created with a purpose. They're a versatile breed, yes, but they're still a working dog. There will be calmer puppies in a litter to fit that of a family companion while others of the same litter will make fabulous police dogs or sport dogs. Those family companion dogs in the litter still need time and energy and more time to get them to greatness. If you cant give that to the dog, you are doing a disservice to the dog and your family by not doing what you need to do as a responsible owner for them. That goes for any breed. Dogs require time, energy, training, etc. They want and need to be involved in your life. If you can't handle the responsibilities that come with a dog, get a cat. Low maintenance, mostly independent and don't mind overmuch if you go on a week long vacation and leave them at home as long as their litter box is clean, they have food in their bowl to last them and water to drink.
> 
> Watering down a breed does nobody any good.





dzg said:


> kzoppa, I didn't see the OP saying any of that in his post, maybe I should start reading in between the lines .... is that a forum requirement?



Lets see if you're paying attention. I quoted YOU. Not the OP. A breeder who breeds below the standard is watering down the breed to suit the masses. Clearly you have difficulty reading. Or am I reading between the lines? 

This breed is not for everyone. There is a lot that goes into the breed in general AND responsible breeding FOR THE BREED STANDARD!!!! Yes, versatile. That does not in any way mean they are the breed for every home. A breeder who breeds below standard is doing wrong by the breed and the creators wishes for the breed. Do I need to simplify it?

Breeder breeds below standard. Breeder being bad. Breeder contributing to breed problems. Breeder no understand true breed purpose. Breeder breeds willy nilly without thought to future of the breed only bank account size. Breed become useless and dumb.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

jmdjack said:


> While I think both dogs are easy to live with and both do well with the kids, *the ride has not been without occasional bumps and blips. We deal with them, learn from them, and move on. Everything is relative. We don’t sweat the small stuff, don’t expect our GSDs to act like anything other than GSDs, and have a high tolerance for chaos, lol. What may seem easy and second nature in my house may seem overwhelming to someone else and vica versa.* Neither of my dogs, and in particular the male, would be a good fit for a meek, permissive person seeking a dog with a golden retriever temperament.


Excellent post. I have a Czech male and a DDR female, he is extremely high drive, high prey drive, hard. She has not so much drive, but you definitely know what she was bred for. And since they are both rescues, they came each with their own set of baggage. The statements in your post that I have bolded are so very true, with not only them but others as well--they are all individuals. I have to agree with whoever told the OP not to try and put a square peg into a round hole. Leads to a whole lot of trouble.

Susan


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that if you are concerned that a DDR dog will be too much dog to start with, why not get a GSL or even an AL dog to start with. After you have brought the pup through to maturity and have a nicely trained dog and feel ready for a second one (GSDs are like Lays Potato Chips: you can't have just one), then you can move on to a working line dog for your next GSD.

Not all GSL dogs have roach - backs. There are a lot of good dogs out there. Some of them have good drive, good nerve, good health. For a beginner, I think you have a better shot at getting a dog that will be a good match.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

The question the op asked I feel is appropriate and is asked a lot. A big misconception is that ddr or working line is high energy. A dog that has to WORK has to have lots of energy right? That was my biggest concern when getting my first working line dog. I was afraid of a dog that was always go go go. That simply just isn't true. Not to mention my working line dog has very high pack drive and is bonded deeply with my family. He greets every member at the door with great enthusiasm. Yet he is aloof and serious to the outside world. So in short a working line can make a wonderful family companion. 

The tough part is finding an experienced breeder to match you with the right dog. I'm sure everyone on here has a different favorite breeder. What I'm looking for in a Shepherd might be the total opposite of what you're looking for. I know when I was looking I didn't know what pack drive was. Or what a civil dog meant. Or that high prey drive didn't mean high energy. Reading descriptions and actually experiencing these things in real life are very very different. 

My advice is go to a breeder that is straight forward and blunt with you. One that isn't telling you everything you want to hear or at least is throwing disclosures in there. Go to one that will not only talk but show you in person what they are talking about. Seeing my breeders dogs in person made a big difference to me. In the end it's a little bit of a crap shoot and you have to actually own a Shepherd or two to actually know what traits you really want. 

But can ddr lines make great family companions? Imo 110% yes. Any line can make a great pet. It's dependent on their temperament.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jmdjack said:


> While I think both dogs are easy to live with and both do well with the kids, the ride has not been without occasional bumps and blips. We deal with them, learn from them, and move on. Everything is relative. We don’t sweat the small stuff, don’t expect our GSDs to act like anything other than GSDs, and have a high tolerance for chaos, lol. What may seem easy and second nature in my house may seem overwhelming to someone else and vica versa. Neither of my dogs, and in particular the male, would be a good fit for a meek, permissive person seeking a dog with a golden retriever temperament.
> 
> .


This very well put! If the OP is in the research phase I would suggest looking at a King Shepherd it looks like a GSD but has a temperament that is more "comfortable" for most folks.

Having said that my preference is a WL dog. But even with a decade of "pet" training in Bully breeds, my WL GSD handed me my butt! Serious "rank" drive issues and "People Issues" he was "not" a fan of company!

I was up for the challenge and I have a great dog! It was a lot of work but it was worth it
to me. My wife however says "never again", I kinda "think" never without!

In my personal acquaintance of family and friends, I recommend a GSD to none of them!

Not a decision to be taken lightly!


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## neal52 (Jan 3, 2014)

I am the person who started this thread, some of the replies have been very helpful and I got some nice mails too with breeder recommendations.

I am going to avoid working line dogs and the DDR, czech, iron curtain etc because its apparent that they will be too much for me.

Gotta say the replies by Kzoppa and the moderator David were totally unhelpful, I almost want the time that I spent reading them back. A waste of bandwidth and space.

I didn't know about the GSD standard so I read it, quoting:
_He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be *suitable as a companion *, guard, protection, service and herding dog.._

So whoever said a companion dog is below the standard needs to read the standard again. 
But anyways those are just words and if people are breeding hard intense dogs that are unsuitable companions in most normal homes then who cares what the standard says.

Is the GSD the next junk-yard dog? Heading towards pit-bull and rottweiler territory? 

I will look into the breeders suggested but otherwise I'm going to get an English Shepherd, amazing dogs. 

Thanks to the helpful posters.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

An English Shepherd is a totally different breed than a German Shepherd..Not sure that your saying you are getting one of those instead?

English Shepherds look bernese mountaindogish and are anything but couch potaotes. I have some friends with them and they require quite a bit of exercise. Or maybe your saying your looking at american line shepherds? 

I don't recall anyone saying a companion dog is below standard.

My dogs, and probably many here who work their dogs, are my companions first and foremost. They just happen to do things in addition to being companions.

I think you could find what your looking for in any "line",,forget the 'line' stuff, and research the breeders you were sent. A good breeder can either match you or not, to a dog that will fit your wants and don't wants, as many have suggested


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Wow so I offer my experience and take with my dog who is considered medium drive as well as things to consider yet unhelpful despite being said by others as well. Good to know. 

Yes, they are good companions IN THE RIGHT HANDS!!!! Even the low drive dogs can be a handful, especially for newbie owners. They still need a job to do and training. They don't come instantly perfect. 

Nobody said a companion dog is below standard. We said any breeder breeding below standard is bad for the breed. My dogs are primarily companions yet I still have to put in the time and energy to maintain them. Shasta may be lazy as all get out but even she needs the time put in for exercise, whether she wants to or not, because if I don't, she'll get destructive. The creator of the breed wanted the breed maintained as a working dog. Lounging around as a lazy family pet was not and is not how they're supposed to be. Even if they're just bringing in the morning paper, its a job for them. They NEED that mental work to be a solid member of the family.

Breeders who breed below standard are not deserving of respect nor are they breeding with the total package in mind. They see dollar signs. That's it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have been following English shepherd breed for a number of years and did own one.
The breeders have the same issues as GSD , with the exception a conformation group.
They have "working/herding" farm dogs and bred for pet only .
Same story , when you don't pay attention to instincts , same things that you said were important to the GSD to allow it to be a good companion quote "_He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be *suitable as a companion *, guard, protection, service and herding dog.."_

_then you will have the same problems , a dog not suitable as a companion . _
The pet group tends to focus on the "irish white" which is the striking lassie type colouration . 
Problems are showing up .

The one I had was pretty hard-core working , bi-colour type.

If you think they are not demanding , better have another look.
In the strain I had there were headers and heelers -- dogs that addressed livestock , sheep / cattle head on , or dogs that ran or drove them from behind . Mine was a tough little header .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Companion, guard, herding and police DO NOT have to be exclusive in a dog.....people who breed dogs that one has to be exclusive to the other are missing the essence of the breed.....those that believe that they have to be exclusive are probably not knowledgable enough to pick a good breeder regardless of what line they choose.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well your doing your research and thats great! But it seems like you made a 180 degree turn and your now looking at another hard core dogie?

Herder dogs are another on my "would not recommend list." I have worked with a few different, it's a "different set of "issues." I have trained a couple dealt with a couple Dominance hassles (female) and I found "herders" to be not so bad, almost kept a foster! I was impressed with her!

Course she was in my care because the original owner had said "I'm done she's going to the pound!"

Not an easy dog, still say a King Shepherd or a Shilo might be what your looking for?


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

In short.....DDR/Czech/Slovak lines can and do make awesome family companions and protectors...............if the alpha male and female of the family have experience with large, powerful dogs. They are not necessarily for first timers.

West German showlines are much easier and mellow. LOL. They still have a look that will ward off most criminals or burglars. Health can be an issue.


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