# Crate (soft/hard), X-Pen, or...?



## wildo

I did a search in the Agility section, but nothing really came up. I did see the link to GoGo crates in the tent sticky. 

Question for all you seasoned agility buffs- knowing what you know now, what would be the best containment option for your adult GSD starting agility? I crate trained Pimg when she was a pup, but she hasn't been in a crate for at least 4 years now. With our first agility trial coming up in late July, I want to purchase a crate and start working some crate games.

What recommendations do you guys have? Further- how do you size the crate? Pimg is 26" at the withers, but obviously much higher at the top of her ears. I assume you want the crate taller than their ears- is there truth to that?

X-Pens could be covered with a towel or something, but I think she would jump out of it. I'll let you guys respond with your experiences, but I think this is probably not the safest route for me...

Thoughts? Thanks!


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## JakodaCD OA

how do you think she'd do in a soft crate? Mine have always been fine in soft crates and they are soooooo much easier/lighter to lug around than a wire one.

The one I have for my 26" dogs were the "Large" size..I like the soft sides cause they do 'give' if the dog wants to stretch out some..XLarge would work fine to..but I wouldn't go any smaller than the Large.

While a couple of my dogs were fine in xpens, they respected the space and never tried to jump out..OH I could see Masi doing just that) Plus again, they are heavy to carry and transport ..I know you can get specific covers for xpens, but the ones I've seen if they want to get out they are going to.

I'd go soft side crate if you don't think she'd try to rip it by clawing at it..


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## Rerun

If you like the idea of an x-pen, they do make tops for them (they are wire I think).

I would not trust a soft sided crate for a dog that hadn't been crated in that long.


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## wildo

At a trial, are there "regulations" on how much space you are allotted? That seems like a silly question, but it seems the majority of agility dogs are smaller and perhaps it is taken for granted that a dog crate is of a specific rectangular shape? I know that at my current training facility (that holds fairly regular trials), crate space is at an absolute premium. The one and only trial I've been to- there was absolutely no room for an x-pen. How does it work? Do people get pissed if you bring an extra large crate or x-pen? Are there "unwritten rules" about this?


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## wildo

This would certianly be very cool haha!


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## Rerun

ha I'd imagine there isn't room for that kind of setup...MRL has posted videos of the crating areas and I saw big crates, I can't remember if I saw x-pens. Never been to the back stage area of a trial so I don't know...


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## wildo

I know... totally joking about that massive (but very awesome) contraption. Good call on the MRL video- I know the exact one you are talking about. I'll have to go back and take a look.

[EDIT]- it was this one:


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## wildo

As of right now, I think I've decided on this one:





Has fantastic reviews, and one site (sitstay.com) claimed that had a 200lb person sit on the corner without it breaking. That's pretty good... The gogo one also seemed nice, but only comes in 25" high which would be too short for my pooch.


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## JakodaCD OA

I have that one for my aussie, I like that you can unzip the top

As for regs on crate sizes at trials, it depends, outside of course, I doubt there is any regulation on whether you use xpens, crates, whatever..At some inside shows I've been at, they might not allow xpens, that info should be listed in your premium. 

With alot of trials, they usually allow you to set up say, the night before. If not, well if space is at a premium you gotta get there early and hope for the best


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## GSDElsa

I think it depends on the dog. I haven't tried a soft crate like that, only the cheaper versions. It was a complete disaster! Elsa ended up basically rolling around in it.

So I'm very wary of them! But that one is a lot nicer than what I have.


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## wildo

Haha- that's one of my character flaws. If I am going to buy something, I tend to want the nicest I can buy- especially if it is something I can make myself. Maybe I should just get a cheapy soft crate first and see how she does.

What I really wish is that I could just buy a collapsing frame and then make my own outer shell. That would be ideal.


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## JakodaCD OA

My first one was just that, bought from someone who made them, It was so long ago I can't remember what the guy's company name was or if he still makes them..

The frame is PVC, the front and back frame part folds down, to do so, you have a pvc pipe across the top from front to back, which can be removed..

The material was netting like, but sturdy netting. with a zippered door in the front..The frame part would probably be easy to make, but I think finding the right material may not be so easy??


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## wildo

You can find ripstop nylon at pretty much any fabric store. You can also maybe find 600D or 1000D nylon locally, or most certainly online. I've also seen "pet screening/mesh" material online. For me, the frame is the hard part. If I had a TIG welder, I'd go for it. But my current ARC welder is not capable of welding aluminum. Further, it isn't as clean of a weld (and certainly _much_ hotter) and a MIG or TIG weld making it difficult to use for such thin steel. I might give it a shot anyway, but right now I'm on the fence.


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## GSDElsa

wildo said:


> Haha- that's one of my character flaws. If I am going to buy something, I tend to want the nicest I can buy- especially if it is something I can make myself. Maybe I should just get a cheapy soft crate first and see how she does.
> 
> What I really wish is that I could just buy a collapsing frame and then make my own outer shell. That would be ideal.


 
I usually buy quality too, but Elsa does so well in crates that it really never occured to be that it would end the way it did! All I was thinking when I bought it was "oh wow, a crate I can fold up and fit in my 'dog bag!' AWESOME!" NOT. lol. I guess I should have known considering how ramped up she gets for agility. Blonde moment!!!


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## JakodaCD OA

well I still have those "old" PVC crates, if I get a chance I'll take a picture of it, but from what I can recall right now here's how the frame is

The bottom is a square, There is a front frame and a back frame, (connected to the bottom),,They are connected to the bottom at the corners with a 3T, not glued, so they can be folded down and pulled up..To stabilize the crate, there is a 3T in the middle of the front and back top pipe, you have a separate piece of pipe that will fit into that which runs straight across the middle of the top of the crate. Also not glued, so the T can move.

well my artistic approach didn't work,,so I'll get a  pic


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## Elaine

Very few venues let you use x-pens due to space problems and they aren't any more safe than a soft sided crate because they can be readily knocked over. There are soft sided crates that have wire doors for the dogs that like to paw at the front of the crate. Only the people with really bad large dogs are willing to haul a wire crate from trial to trial. Your dog does not have to be able to hold their head up and not touch the top of the crate. I just make sure there's enough room for my dog to lie down comfortably.


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## wildo

JakodaCD OA said:


> well my artistic approach didn't work,,so I'll get a pic


I think I understand, but would love to see a pic!


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## elisabeth_00117

wildo said:


> This would certianly be very cool haha!



That is the set up I had for Stark when he was a puppy. It worked great and I will do that again for any puppy that comes here.

For Stark, he gets super worked up when he knows there are other dogs working and he is not (in agility class and ESPECIALLY at schH) so having him in a crate that is not only secure but is hard to see out of is important. I use the Vari kennels for this and the wire ones for at home.


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## MaggieRoseLee

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...sunshade-soft-crate-favorite.html#post1283052 shows the crates I like the best. Sturdy and has mesh on all sides for ventilation AND/OR you can also roll all the sides down if it's cold or there are annoying dogs around so you want to buffer your dogs a bit. 

If my dog was going to scratch/tear themselves out, then I'd get a hard sided crate. 

If not, I'd go for a soft one all the way. So much easier to carry around a trial. Specially for our big dogs. I do NOT measure their ear height though. Frankly, my calm dogs are curled in the back of their crates in a sleeping ball during most of the trial. So for me to get a very large and HEAVY crate that allows them alot of standing and ear room is just not going to happen.  

I agree that the x-pens do allow dogs to escape and there are many trials that there just isn't room. Added to the fact I like to have a real 'routine' at a trial that is calming and the same to my dogs. Using the same crate is a part of that. I think they appreciate the quiet 'den' a crate can be for them at a sometimes crazy trial site. 

The Canine Camper is the crate I like the best for now..This shows how the flaps come down over the mesh windows..



















It is a bit heavier than some others but like that it comes with a carrying case I also use as padding and tarp UNDER their crates.

Tons of different crates on this site: Dog Crates

Soft Pet Crate - Dog Care - Compare Prices, Reviews and Buy at Nextag - Price - Review


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## wildo

One thing that I definitely like about that Canine Camper is the closable flaps. But do you think it is as sturdy as the N2N? SitStay.com claims they had a 200lb man *sit on the corner* of the N2N without it breaking. Do you think the CC would fair the same?

NozToNoz n2-42 Sof Krate - Dog Supplies


> Sturdy and lightweight. When we tested this crate, we had a 200 pound man sit on a corner of the set up crate and it didn't budge! Now this is where we say, "Kids, don't try this at home, we are professionals!" Try sitting on the edge of another brand of soft crate (when it breaks, come to SitStay for a new NOZTONOZ Sof Krate).


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## lylol

Most of us prob have a couple different crates depending on the event. Since I am a SoCal=er I have never been to an indoor event but I have been to covered horse arena trials and trials with enclosed crating areas where you were assigned a spot... so out here the unwritten rule is about a 10 x 10 space and in the really big trials they would mark the space off on the floor with tape. Most easyups are about 10 x 10... but my hubby who thinks bigger is better got me a 12x9 screen tent and though I get routine comments about my BIG tent I've gotten over it  If I want more room than that then I dont usually set up in the front row but go back a ways where I can have some extra space. One of my dogs is crate defensive... so I like a bit of space. It depends on the dog but I have used both the soft crates and the wire ones... I have an older Noz2Noz that I love cause it has less screen/higher sides for my crate defensive dog, he relax more with out getting riled up looking out the window... but it is hard to find any more... so I was the one that likes the gogo soft crate and I also got their wire one. I have had dogs put their foot thru the screen siding on some cheaper models when they are very excited so my main criteria are heavy screen and ease of set up. I dont think they have to be able to stand and not touch their ears as much as is it comfortable for the way they sleep... For trials where I am working alot so not just hangin at the crate with the dog to monitor behavior all day, I will tell you that I have gone back to the wire crate... just peace of mind for me and safety for all concerned... and I have attached an xpen to the crate so so when I am sitting there at lunch or watching others, I give him access to the xpen so its his choice to come out and sprawl or stay in his happy crate. Yes it is heavy to tote but I got a good wagon to help. If it is a short day (just one or two events like Novice at the end of the day) I may just bring the soft crate we use for class. So it goes back to what is your dog comfortable with and what is your particular trial site like... in a close quarters event with my crate defensive dog I would go with wire, with my happy go lucky guy, he just goes to sleep in what ever I stick him regardless of surroundings.


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## wildo

Thanks lylol! Some really good info there. It's been such a long time since Pimg was in a crate, that I am not sure how she will react. I think the main thing is that I am banking on being able to _train_ her to react appropriately. I don't see why that should be an issue. I'm thinking that with enough crate game training, she will learn to love her crate.

Then again- Pimg does have mild separation anxiety, so the soft crate may not be the best choice. I dunno- it's a hard decision. 

I'm pumped that you have experience with both the NozToNoz and GoGo. I like the features (closable flaps) on the Canine Camper, but I read a couple reviews on Amazon about dogs laying against the braces and bending them. I can fix torn screen/mesh, I can't fix bent steel support rods. For that reason, I think the CC is out of the running for me and is ultimately a strong reason the N2N is holding out. I can easily modify the N2N to have flaps over the mesh...

So do you feel the GoGo is just as strong and well built as the N2N? I'm an adult male who has weight lifted since childhood. I'm not too concerned about weight (which makes it curious that I am not overly interested in a wire crate- I know that's odd). So if I find a soft crate that is strong and sturdy, I'd choose it over a lighter one. The GoGo does have included shades to pull over the screen- that's a nice feature.

The GoGo could win out if I can just get some confirmation that it is solidly built and sturdy.


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## lylol

OK, good timing for this question. I used the old N2N last night in class and the gogo with my youngster tonight at his class. The N2N is sometimes hard for me to fully close the frame (or bad technique on my part) but when closed it feels very firm. when I am in a rush, sometimes I will just close one side of the frame top and I can still put the training bag on top with out misshaping the crate. The GoGo frame closes very easily for me but may not be quite as firm. So I would go with your instinct on the N2N. Just one other comment on your crate training situation... I have always fed my youngsters in a crate, so you may just want to start for a few days putting Pimq's food in the crate with the door open. If you are thinking Susan Garrett type crate games I will share that a soft crate makes it just a bit more difficult for the early stages of the game... it is a lot faster to close a swinging DOOR than a zippered door. Not impossible just a bit harder to coordinate. And its a little less steady for the dog to blast out of during the games. Maybe you can borrow an old plastic crate from someone in your club for a month to do the initial crate game activities... once the "its your choice" game is mastered it wont matter so much. Just a thought... am sure you will have fun crate training one way or the other.


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## wildo

Perfect- that's exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for the info! And I think that is solid advice about the games. I forgot that they involve opening/closing the door- certainly not as easy with a zipper. I will keep that in mind. Thanks!


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## MaggieRoseLee

One thing I didn't know when I first bought a soft crates is they are set up with a CLIP at the top of the crate where the zippers come up. This clip is a vital part of the 'locking' system because you put the zipper ends thru it assuring that just a random pawing/scratching from the dog won't UNzip the crate and let your dog run amock!


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## wildo

Thanks MRL! I also discovered that in research. For anyone who may stumble upon this thread, sitstay.com has a picture of this:
SitStay Item Closeup


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## lylol

Yes, I have a notorious BC who can slip a toe nail down the zipper if I dont have it clipped shut!!


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## wildo

Funny- after all this thought/conversation- I decided on a wire crate. For me, there were two deciding factors- 1) I don't see an advantage to a soft crate other than weight. When folded up, it is still the same dimensions as a wire crate save its thickness. And 2) I totally forgot that crate games require opening and closing the door. Thanks for the reminder on that Lysa!

It sucks that it is a lot (LOT) heavier, but for me the packed size was more of a concern. My crate is 42 x 28 and it's that 42" dimension that will be a bear to deal with. If the soft crate would have folded in half along the long dimension, than it would have won out.

The only thing I am really disappointed with is my decision to purchase on Amazon while tired. It defaulted to standard (3-5day) shipping, but Super Save (5-8day) would have been free! So that was a $28 mistake...


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## AgileGSD

For me, it depends on the dog and event. If your dog is at all prone to getting at all guardy over their space in crowded areas, soft sided crates are not appropriate. I have seen dogs bite people and other dogs through soft sided crates at agility trials. Soft sided crates really are most appropriate for dogs who are very used to and comfortable being crated. 

At CPE trials I usually use a soft crate for Whimsy and my mom uses a plastic airline crate for Cherry (she can be guardy about her crate and has destroyed a wire crate out of frustration, so no soft crates for her - ever!). If Jagger goes, he can be in whatever crate is available. At AKC trials, right now I have been sharing an expen with a friend for Whim. Cherry can't be in an expen either because she'll jump out, so she pretty much is always in a plastic crate. 

If I had a dog who hadn't been crated in many years, I would probably start with a wire crate with the sides covered by blanket or towel for the first few trials. It's hard to say how a dog will react to having a very small space in a busy, crowded building. Also Crate Games are going to be easier to do with a wire crate.


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## lylol

Willy... I know you like to make your own things, but you can get a nice sturdy canvas cover at Walmart for a wire crate at a reasonable price... it has a clear plastic front door that I dont understand so I just cut it off and use a towel or blanket if I need the door covered. No windows, but if I need more ventilation on one side or another I just fold the side up and clip it to the wire frame... works great for home sleeping and gives nice privacy in busy places like dog trials... the large size for your crate size I think is green and tan.


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## lylol

Agile GSD... glad to know I am not the only one with more crates than dogs!!!


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## wildo

lylol said:


> Willy... I know you like to make your own things, but you can get a nice sturdy canvas cover at Walmart...


:rofl: How did you know that I had it in mind to make a cover!? :wild:


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## AgileGSD

lylol said:


> Agile GSD... glad to know I am not the only one with more crates than dogs!!!


 Well you need crates for the house, crates for the van, crates to take into the show with you, crates for the hotel...


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## wildo

Now that I've has Pimg's create for a full 24 hours, I think now I see the advantage to a soft crate. I got the Midwest Life Stages 42 x 28 x 31 and it is HEAVY and HUGE! It sure is going to suck to lug this all over the place.

On another note- Pimg is doing really well with Create Games Pt I from here:





(I love this lady's channel. SO much good info!)


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