# Critique the parents of my anticipated puppy.



## Brad0405 (Mar 16, 2013)

Conformity?

Anything stand out? 

Any concerns?

Here is the $64,000.00 question...What will a litter look like?

Charlotte:

*Photos removed by ADMIN since no permission was given to have them* *posted.* 

Ernst:


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

There really isn't much anyone can tell you just from those pictures. Most likely the puppies will be red and black.

Do either of the parents have hip or elbow certification? What are their temperaments like? Do they have any working titles or are they working dogs?


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## Brad0405 (Mar 16, 2013)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> There really isn't much anyone can tell you just from those pictures. Most likely the puppies will be red and black.
> 
> Do either of the parents have hip or elbow certification? What are their temperaments like? Do they have any working titles or are they working dogs?


They and both of their parents are OFA. They come from import working lines. 

The bitch is higher drive and her head and bones are phenomenal.

Ernst is a bouncy play boy with crazy ball drive.

Temperament of the pups is anticipated to be 2's with a few 3's thrown in upon testing. Just what I have been searching for. 

I looked forever to find these coats and colors.

We never spoke about working titles for this pair but previous litters have titled and some are working. The breeder has a following and places a lot of dogs with SAR, Corrections and Police. She is only 40 or so miles from Von Liche.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Brad0405 said:


> They and both of their parents are OFA. They come from import working lines.


Judging by the look of the dogs they look like showlines, not working lines. Do you have their pedigrees?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Try posting the full names of the parents so the bloodline gurus can look them up and maybe give you an idea of what to expect


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## Brad0405 (Mar 16, 2013)

DinoBlue said:


> Judging by the look of the dogs they look like showlines, not working lines. Do you have their pedigrees?


Pedigrees in front of me? No, I only have what she has related to me. Your observation about them being Show Lines is interesting considering her kennel has never pursued Show Lines. Just working and companion GSD.

What prompted that observation?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Who is the breeder?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

All you need to look up her pedigree is her parents' registered names.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

"Pedigrees in front of me? No, I only have what she has related to me. Your observation about them being Show Lines is interesting considering her kennel has never pursued Show Lines. Just working and companion GSD." 
The difference between show and working line has to do with their pedigrees and origins - not what the dogs actually do at the moment. 

Father especially looks like classic WGSL - mother is probably muddled lines with majority WGSL. This breeding will probably be a couple generations down from titled West German Showlines ("We never spoke about working titles for this pair"). The breeding will probably produce heavy boned black and red pups with dark mask, good pigment, moderate structure (dam is a little sway backed though) - temperament, nerve, ability etc depends on what the breeding throws. 

What is the pedigree? Be careful in Indiana - they are more than a few unsavory types as far as puppy sales go.


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## Brad0405 (Mar 16, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> Try posting the full names of the parents so the bloodline gurus can look them up and maybe give you an idea of what to expect


Email sent but with spring upon us she is covered up training so I might not hear anything for a couple of days.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Brad0405 said:


> Pedigrees in front of me? No, I only have what she has related to me. Your observation about them being Show Lines is interesting considering her kennel has never pursued Show Lines. Just working and companion GSD.
> 
> What prompted that observation?


The look of the dogs, color and body type.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm wary of the fact that the website only has "x-rayed" without the ratings, and the fact that none of their breeding stock have registered names listed... as well as the use of the term "old world". I don't know enough about conformation to give specifics, but some of the dogs they're breeding have wonky conformation and poor pigmentation.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

** quote removed/deleted post**

Mishmash of lines - catering to pet homes. Probably several generations down from titled, koered, rated parents. No clear objective as far as lines go - there is a mix of all types in their program. Could you get a nice pet out of this kennel? Maybe - but I'm not sure someone could predict for sure as the mix is too varied and there seem to be no certs/titles on breeding dogs other than hip/elbows.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

would someone care to shed light on this "all eastern german female", looks nothing like any DDR dog that I have seen, was under the impression they do not have this coloring?
though i am not sure what coloring could tell. just curious.

Caterina pictured below: 
All Eastern German Female

** Photo removed by ADMIN. **


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Mishmash of lines - catering to pet homes. Probably several generations down from titled, koered, rated parents. No clear objective as far as lines go - there is a mix of all types in their program. Could you get a nice pet out of this kennel? Maybe - but I'm not sure someone could predict for sure as the mix is too varied and there seem to be no certs/titles on breeding dogs other than hip/elbows.


The parents don't seem to actually have certs on the hips/elbows either... no OFA ratings are listed. No mention of OFA at all, actually.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Before we go down the road of breeder bashing (as it could go there.........) To the op

At the very least-
-pedigrees
-OFA Certifications not just x-rays
-Documented working history?
-REFERENCES, not statements - who is their following? 
-Have you met the dogs?
-Volhard? one time puppy tests not really what most folks looking for a working prosect will rely on. Who is doing the testing and where - are they following the protocol? What about P.A.W.S.? 

There just is not any information on that wepbage to give an objective opinion without just trashing the breeder due to lack of information.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Brad0405 said:


> They and both of their parents are OFA.


:shrug:


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I wouldn't go anywhere near this breeder, you can find much better ones out there. Their website alone has me shaking my head


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I can't comment because you are very excited and looked for a long time before you found this breeder and pair. 
I don't think you want to hear negative things and there is no breeder bashing allowed on this board.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

He does not have the puppy yet! I would advice OP to read up on "choosing a breeder" literature and ask some pertinent questions to the breeders before bringing the pup home for sure.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/

Also - why is this thread in critique my dog?


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> He does not have the puppy yet! I would advice OP to read up on "choosing a breeder" literature and ask some pertinent questions to the breeders before bringing the pup home for sure.
> Choosing A Breeder - German Shepherd Dog Forums
> 
> Also - why is this thread in critique my dog?


I believe it's because they wanted a critique on the two dogs before they bought the puppy.


To the OP: I can't say much because I don't want to come too close for "breeder bashing".... But in the best way I can possibly think to put it:

Secure you money and run...

Follow the suggestion qbchottu stated above and what others have stated before that on the "critiques" of those dogs.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I thought this section was for people to seek out conformation evals on _their_ dogs - these aren't his dogs and the pup he wants an eval on isn't even born. A mod should move this to another forum perhaps...


Edit: thanks


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Er, my primary concern was that the breeder did not seem to have been up front with you (i.e. telling you the dogs were OFA'd when they were not, not providing more information about the parents, etc).... you asked what to expect, but it's hard to tell when the breeder didn't seem to be giving you all the information. That's all.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Agreed with everyone else. There are much better options out there. 

OP... try to have an open mind and actually listen to what people are trying to tell you.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

**Deleted quote removed**

You asked for a look at the two being bred. There wasn't enough information, so people asked. You provided the website, which didn't jive with what you had been told. Not a single person insulted you, at all. They said the breeder was probably not a safe bet, and because you're so excited you might want to consider looking elsewhere. That has absolutely nothing to do with you at all. It's impossible to say how a litter will turn out with so little info on the parents. Again... I was only trying to say that it didn't seem like the breeder was being honest with you because what she had told you was not what was on the website.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

**deleted quote removed by ADMIN**

So were you just looking at what the color would be of the pups?

If you've been on the internet long enough you should've known that you need to be as specific as possible and even then you open yourself up for criticism.

Trust me...you didn't get half of what you could've gotten. Just look up some old "I want to breed my dog" or "Looking for a stud" threads. The OP usually lasts 3-4 posts and never sees the light of day in a 10+ page thread. Those are quite entertaining.

No one is self-absorbed. Many people have gone to breeders like the one you've posted, and after having issues, or actually educating themselves, they now know better and try to pass that information on to you. I didn't look at the website, I didn't have to...I knew what was going to be on it, and the responses that you were going to receive.

BTW...if you wanted "they're going to be cute" comments. You post AFTER you have the puppy lol. At that point...no one cares about where you got the dog from and all you'll have is, "OMG that is the cutest GSD ever!" posts.

PM me if you want some of the other timing differences on the forum. To tell you the truth...it really matters how you phrase things that will get you more "accepting" comments.

I really don't care either way about the breeder...but even to me most of the information you've received is very deceiving and sketchy. The dogs might still be healthy, fine tempered, and everything you might want out of a GSD...but the fact remains that the breeder does not follow the "accepted guidelines" most of the forum member believe in when it comes to breeding responsibly.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

** deleted comments removed by ADMIN along with a response to those comments**

You have been given some insights on what to look for. You can choose to consider it or ignore it. 

Don't know what else to say or should be said. I learned the hard way and figured out how to do my own research and a lot of it before I bought my last two dogs and it paid off. Have had GSDs for over 25 years. The suggested stuff comes from years of collective wisdom and experience from board members and not internet experts. Sure maybe some snide comment but those were minor and will always be there no matter where you go.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just checked out the website...not the worst breeder in the world but also not the best.

I don't think you should take it to heart that other people wouldn't go to that breeder. We all have our reasons of why we wouldn't pick one breeder over another...but the truth is they are just throwing good looking dogs together. It looks like a big mess of lines and just pretty looking dogs being bred. The fact that they had a "foundation male" is really surprising as most kennels start with a "foundation female" since those are much harder to come by. If you've got references, and people are generally happy with those puppies...you'll probably be just as happy.

I'd be interested in the price of the pups as well...I think what you consider "royalty" isn't much more expensive than this kennel is charging...or it might even be the same.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> No one is self-absorbed. Many people have gone to breeders like the one you've posted, and after having issues, or actually educating themselves, they now know better and try to pass that information on to you. I didn't look at the website, I didn't have to...I knew what was going to be on it, and the responses that you were going to receive.


This! Trust me- I WISH someone with more experience had said "this is not a good breeder to go to" before I got my dog. That's not to say I don't love my dog, and I had no intentions of having a champion sporting dog, but all the things people have pointed out to you really do matter. 

Nobody here made any critiques of the breeder in a "omg you're an idiot for wanting a puppy from here!" way, at all. Believe me. You didn't know what to look for (at least, that's the impression I got by the questions you were asking and what info you had from the breeder.... and I do NOT mean that in a "you're so stupid and inexperienced!" way, at all), so people pointed out what to look for...many of the people who did learned this very same lesson the HARD way. 

Most importantly, beyond health checks/OFA's/titles, etc... you don't want to go to a breeder who seems to be trying to be deceptive, as this one appears to be. That's the biggest concern anyone here had, because you deserve better than that.


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## Brad0405 (Mar 16, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Just checked out the website...not the worst breeder in the world but also not the best.
> 
> I don't think you should take it to heart that other people wouldn't go to that breeder. We all have our reasons of why we wouldn't pick one breeder over another...but the truth is they are just throwing good looking dogs together. It looks like a big mess of lines and just pretty looking dogs being bred. The fact that they had a "foundation male" is really surprising as most kennels start with a "foundation female" since those are much harder to come by. If you've got references, and people are generally happy with those puppies...you'll probably be just as happy.
> 
> I'd be interested in the price of the pups as well...I think what you consider "royalty" isn't much more expensive than this kennel is charging...or it might even be the same.


Thank you !

This breeder is ethical. I have every confidence in our relationship.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

You asked for a critique of the parents and you got one, you may not like the answers you got, and no one is 'forcing' you to go elsewhere if you choose to get a puppy from this breeder.

Your choice Where you get a puppy doesn't have an impact on any of the posters here, only you.

Your idea of ethical may be different than someone elses. 

Good luck with your future puppy where ever it may come from.

** some content removed by ADMIN**


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Brad, Part of breeding is knowing the lines in and out and upside down. Knowing the dogs behind the dogs, what they produce, what is in the lines, why you would want to breed this bitch into that line of dogs. A breeder also has to have a wealth of knowledge about everything in the breed, training, health conditions, nutrition, and the list goes on and on. 

I won't go on and on. But on their website, they have three separate breeds of dogs not remotely like each other. They keep both sires and dams of each of those breeds. There are people out there that can keep all that information in their heads (about individual dogs and the different lines) and make decisions for more than one breed of dog, but I would look at any breeder with multiple breeds under a microscope.

The dam looks like a mixture of lines, and the sire is a West German Show line dog. You can get good dogs from this combination. You can also get a mixed bag.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Did anyone else catch that they breed three different breeds of dogs? I can't keep up on all the GSD standards, dogs and lines let alone multiple breeds.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

yes, they are breeding paps and mini aussies. 

I just found the website to be lacking in pertinent information, pedigrees, ofa numbers.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> Did anyone else catch that *they breed three different breeds of dogs*? I can't keep up on all the GSD standards, dogs and lines let alone multiple breeds.


That was the first thing I noticed.


Brad0405 said:


> They and both of their parents are OFA. They come from import working lines.
> 
> The bitch is higher drive and her head and bones are phenomenal.
> 
> ...


 40 miles from Von Liche? What does that have to do with their credibility as a trainer or being a responsible breeder? Not sure I'd want to even share that info! Hear that all the time, placing dogs with depts? Do they donate the puppies, green dogs or train them and then sell them?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Since this thread has taken on a very nasty tone and there is a lot of editing to do, it is being closed. *

*ADMIN Lisa*


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