# Is there a problem with dogs & cops?



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Looking back at all the news that went out about cops shooting or tazering dogs, just within this year... I am wondering if there is a pattern or if the people just get more irresponsible about owning dogs, or if cops have lost a lot of tolerance toward dogs and their owners. 

Shouldn't they get training? Is there anything done about that issue?

With everything that is going on, shouldn't they be trained on how to deal with dogs?

Am I being paranoid when I am a little concerned about my dogs safety over there?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think for the most part if your a responsible dog owner you have nothing to worry about. My dogs and I have never had a problem, but then again my dogs are always under control. Issues like dog fighting have definitely heightened media sensitivity to dog bites and/or attacks putting pressure on our government to crack down on aggressive dogs, or dogs who's behavior can be seen as aggressive. Unfortunately cops aren't specialists in canine behavior, but they are responsible for handling dog related incidents with the exception of counties that have their own animal control units like mine. If there is a complaint against a dog in my county an animal control officer is the one sent out, and yes they do have training in canine behaviors which is a benefit. For other counties who lack this resource their cops should have to undergo some special training, but that training in it of itself is another resource most areas can't afford. So the bottom line is be responsible and have your dog under control when out and about


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I think it may be both...a combination of cops and owners.

I have a cop friend who did a call to a house and they turned their "pit" loose after the cop. What was he supposed to do at that point? The dog was coming at him and he shot it.

So it's not a case of me always thinking the cops are in the wrong (although I did in the other thread). A lot of the crime ridden area where cops are sent/patroling have a certain breed of dog for protection (because they are selling drugs, whatever)...GSD, Pits, Rotties. Those dogs are naturally protective and territorial. 

But when I hear about cops shooting labs or random dogs in the house...I don't know. 

I think it may also be a lack of training. Cops don't automatically know how to deal with dogs or read their behavior just because they are cops. But since they have guns...lol...some training should be required, IMO. I don't like the shoot first mentality. It doesn't mean the cops are always wrong, either.

There are millions of cops who never shoot a dog. And even with those that do, there are some that are justified. And then there are some who are not. It's a case by basis for me. So many variables come into play.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think that after a while cops just have so many bad experiences with aggressive/loose dogs they start to have negative feelings for all strange dogs and they are quicker to shoot.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I also think that with so many people out of work and the economy being so bad, that folks thought that they could help make ends meet by breeding anything with a womb to anything with testicles and sell the offspring. The result is an over abundance of badly bred animals running the street.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

1. Never underestimate the twist that the media puts on things. "If it bleeds, it leads, as the saying goes. It's a guaranteed tug on the heartstrings to tell the story of how the mean old policeman shot the family pet, even though the "family pet" was 85 pounds of territorial GSD, and whose owners had no control over him at all. But they don't care; people are watching their channel or buying their papers. 

2. After having trained three dogs in Schutzhund for six years, I can say with complete certainty that I will never take a bare-flesh bite from one of these or any similar dogs. My male GSD tore a 2" by 8" section out of an aluminum kennel the last time one of my females was in heat. If that had been flesh, somebody would have died or lost a body part. As far as avoiding this sort of thing between dogs, the answer is simple: Don't go to dog parks and you'll avoid the majority of situations where you'll have to defend yourself or your dog from another dog. 

If it's a choice between me getting 230 stitches, broken bones, rabies shots, months in rehab and therapy for the psychological consequences of a dog bite, and shooting...guess what?

And for the record, it's not people on this board that need to worry about it. Secure your dog in a crate when when he's in the car. If a police officer comes to your door, yell, "Just a minute! Let me put my dog away!" and crate him. Problem solved. And if you REALLY want to get on the police department's good side, if you see lots of cars and officers on foot (like they're searching for somebody), call the dispatcher and tell them that you have a dog and he's been taken into the house. They'll LOVE you for it.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

except that there are instances where crated dogs have been shot by police as well. Also, yelling "just a second" to the police can be considered reason enough for them to kick in the door.

If you see lots of cops around and think they are pursuing a suspect on foot, I agree, bring your dog inside. Not sure why you would call to tell them that you did it? If there IS a pursuit going on, dispatch is very busy and doesn't need to be interrupted for a nothing call.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I remember watching a video on youtube where the cops got a family out of the car and simply shot the dog that was in the back of the car. That would be my biggest nightmare, that for some reason the police would stop me and shoot the dogs in the back of the car just because they can and you can do NOTHING about it and have to watch helplessly while your dogs die.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think it is easy to get a distorted idea of risks, events, and dangers from news reports, TV, and other media. I have often met people from Europe who really believed that in any town anywhere in North America, shoot-outs where a daily occurence - that is what movies and TV dramas, and news reports seem to convey. Also, despite the dog-related incidents, who here feels scared for their dogs just walking them down the street? I don't think that your dogs will be at any more risk here (North America in general - "here" where I live, my biggest concern right now is a black bear that is taking daily walks through the property and leaving me "piles" of stuff . . . ). Trigger-happy idiots who can't handle their own power can be found anywhere, in any society. The vast majority of us here on this board have multiple big dogs, are active in the community with them, and have never encountered a problem. That would be a better indication of what the risks levels are than looking at sensationalized media reports.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I have often met people from Europe who really believed that in any town anywhere in North America, shoot-outs where a daily occurence - that is what movies and TV dramas, and news reports seem to convey.


It is true, you can easily get that picture and what didn't help either is having some bad experiences while being in the States. There was a shooting in the new york subway when I arrived. When we drove from San Diego to Sacramento and stayed with a friend we could hear the gang fights and shooting from the other side. 

I have never experienced anything like that before, ever in my life. 
One thing that concerns me is easy access to weapons. I know it's state by state but it's just so much easier than here and people seem to have very little problem to use it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I remember watching a video on youtube where the cops got a family out of the car and simply shot the dog that was in the back of the car. That would be my biggest nightmare, that for some reason the police would stop me and shoot the dogs in the back of the car just because they can and you can do NOTHING about it and have to watch helplessly while your dogs die.


.

There is certainly something SERIOUSLY wrong with that person!!! To judge all police officers based on such an incident is not reasonable though. 

My parents are from Hungary. As a teenager, we had gone back to Hungary for a visit. My Aunt asked me if we have a lot of trouble with the Indians coming into the city (?) Huh? Yes, we had Native people living in the city, but they were citizens like you and I who went to school, owned homes and cars, and had various jobs. Because of all the westerns on TV, she thought that even in the 1980's, "Indians" lived outside the city, in Tepees, and would swarm into town and have massive shoot-outs. 

A friend of mine emigrated from England as a young adult. For the first nine years of living here, she was afraid to leave the house, convinced that a sniper somewhere will get her, or that she will be caught in the cross-fire of a shoot-out. Amazing the power that TV can have on people, and give a false sense of reality. 

Mr. K, your sense of reality is being distorted by what you hear and see. Of course awful things happen, they happen all the time, and they happen just about anywhere on the globe - but the risk is very small that you would be the victim of random violence. Chances are you will have a great life with your hubby and your dogs, as most people do!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well... I guess my neighbor doesn't help either. Her cousin just killed somebody in NC and was on the run. She also told me a couple of stories from her life in the trailer parks. One thing I know, I NEVER EVER want to live in a trailer park. NEVER!!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Big cities like NY and San Diego are something else!! I've spent some time in LA, and the emergency sirens where going all night - it was something new to me too!

I know the attitude towards fire-arms in the US is something very different than in Canada, and it is very much a historical/cultural difference. If someone is crazy and criminal enough to cause harm and victimize others, they will find a way to do it, whether they have access to fire-arms or not. On the positive side, I spent 10 years in the military (and I'm pretty handy with a gun myself - so not against guns, I'm against idiots) and have worked closely for much of that time is US military personnel, and to this day, I find that they were some of the best people I have ever worked with. 

People are people everywhere you go, and your experience of a new place will be what you make of it.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

American media loves horrible stories and they will emphasize all the gory details in the most inflammatory way possible because it means higher ratings or more sales.

And trailer parks aren't so bad. You can have murderous neighbors in the most upscale places. You're moving to Ft. Drum right? I'm in NYS too. Northern New York is a nice place to live. I don't know how the US compares to Germany, but it seems very safe here IMO. I think you are worrying unnecessarily. You'll be fine here.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

First, some departments do conduct training on how to react to an aggressive dog. Statements that indicate "cops should recieve training" infer people weren 't aware of that information. In the last couple of discussions about cops/dogs, it was clearly pointed out how the cops killed the dogs, they were wrong and the officer should suffer the plague, lose an ear and be beaten half to death. I think a list was presented that mentioned several occasions where an officer shot and killed a dog. Of course those articles don't really indicate whether or not the shooting was necessary, but hey that would ruin the story. I'm personally familiar with one of the stories, so I know the slant our fair minded media put on the story. What wasn't presented, and why would it be because it might indicate fairness in a discussion, was stories of the tens-of-thousands of daily contacts that police have without a dog being shot. There are even stories of officers saving dogs, ducks, squirrels, kittens. There are hundreds of stories of K9 officers that don't beat their dogs. There are even stories of the big manly K9 officer crying as he holds his dog as it dies from a bullet wound from the bad guy. One of the reasons you don't see that many of them is, ---- It's not news. At least not as emotional as the news of a shooting, by a law enforcement officer of course, of a dog in a dog park. I've always found it odd to see people agree there are two sides to a story --- unless it involves a cop shooting a dog. 

DFrost


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> except that there are instances where crated dogs have been shot by police as well. Also, yelling "just a second" to the police can be considered reason enough for them to kick in the door.
> 
> If you see lots of cops around and think they are pursuing a suspect on foot, I agree, bring your dog inside. *Not sure why you would call to tell them that you did it?* If there IS a pursuit going on, dispatch is very busy and doesn't need to be interrupted for a nothing call.


To let them know that it's OK to go in the back yard. 

Our local department here in town knows us, and knows we have dogs (my wife used to work there). We called, they searched, they didn't find the bad guy. We called back and told them that we were putting the dog back outside, after they left. The dog shot to the far corner of the yard and started doing a hold and bark, and chased the suspect back over the fence. There was a small space between our fence and a neighbor's fence where the guy was hiding.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

that's a reason to bring your dog in. but, they will run through your back yard, dog or no dog.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

What DFrost said. The "news" media in this country have an agenda, and it involves destroying trust between the citizens and the police departments, among other things. They search for these types of incidents, ignore ones that don't agree with their agenda, and make it seem like _ever_y officer is just waiting to kill somebody's dog. The reason these stories are in the news is because they're rare.

Google "Army Field Manual 33-1" to learn more about propaganda techniques. You'll never watch the six o'clock news the same way again.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> that's a reason to bring your dog in. but, they will run through your back yard, dog or no dog.


True, but if they know your dog isn't back there it's one less thing for them to worry about.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the dispatcher isn't going to put over the radio that the dog living at such-and-such address has been brought inside. The cops running through back yards don't know the exact address of where they are to say "oh, this person called to say they put their dog in." I'm just saying there is no reason to waste the time of dispatch making a pointless phone call; just bring the dog in.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

My neighbors across the street are local police in the next town over. Both the husband and wife are. They have a lab and we talk dogs now and again. We started talking about the Blue Ash, Ohio, dog shooting. She hadn't heard about it, but admitted that they get no training on how to handle dogs. She said she was sent to pick up a dog and was given a catch pole with no instruction on how to use it. And, surprizingly, there is no Animal Control department in a city the size of Cincinnati. I called them once about a stray once and thats what I was told.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hunther's Dad said:


> If it's a choice between me getting 230 stitches, broken bones, rabies shots, months in rehab and therapy for the psychological consequences of a dog bite, and shooting...guess what?
> 
> 
> > Wow, you really are going for a record bad dog bite incident, aren't you. If you BELIEVE that will happen if the dog makes contact, I can see how you might shoot a dog before it makes contact.
> ...


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Dainerra said:


> the dispatcher isn't going to put over the radio that the dog living at such-and-such address has been brought inside. The cops running through back yards don't know the exact address of where they are to say "oh, this person called to say they put their dog in." I'm just saying there is no reason to waste the time of dispatch making a pointless phone call; just bring the dog in.



Here they most certainly will if at all possible and most of the times the cops know where they are so that they can let dispatch know where they are. My guess is that is something that is going to vary from dept. to dept. and their protocol on it.

There is no more a problem with dogs and cops than their are with dogs and black people, white people, firemen, EMT's etc etc.

Finding one or two or even 10 stories from around the US compared to the stories where they arent doing anything is a big big difference.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The guy around the block from me is a K9 Officer(from what I have heard) and owns his own police dog. And my friend lives across the street from 2 couples and the husbands are cops and have PPD trained GSDs.

I guess it all depends if the officers are around dogs or not. Or if they have dogs of their own. But IMO Police officers should have a Dogs 101 class so they know how to properly handle the situation that involves a dog.


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## Equus5O (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't even know where to begin. I'm on the job for 21 years now. We didn't learn in the academy back then about handling dogs, and I'm pretty sure the recruits don't learn about it now. There's also no training regarding handling cats, possums, raccoons, squirrels, chipmunks, or armadillos. I haven't gotten any calls about chipmunks or armadillos, though.  Police departments receive calls every day about every thing. There's a whole lot of things we get calls about that we're not trained in. Let's get back to dogs, though. I have animal experience, and everyone in the department knows that. I have a rabies pole. It's not issued equipment, and I won't disclose how I obtained it. I know how to use it. I have no problem responding to animal calls. But, that's me. How many cops in a department are you going to find that are that comfortable responding to animal calls? It's not what we're trained to do. Some cops just aren't comfortable with animals. Should they not be cops, then? I have a hard time seeing how dog handling can be incorporated into basic police training. Should dog-handling be a pre-requisite to becoming a police officer? That's ridiculous. It would be nice if dog-handling could be an in-service training course, but again I just don't see it. Are you going to volunteer your aggressive dog for training of novices? Ain't gonna happen. I'm not defending anyone. I'm not going to Monday Morning Quarter Back any situation, whether it be the shooting of a dog or a person. I'm totally pooped out right now ... so forgive me for rambling, but my bottom line is don't condemn the cops. Don't say that cops who shoot dogs shouldn't be cops. The cop that shot a dog yesterday could be the cop who saved your child with rescue breaths last week.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Equus5O said:


> I don't even know where to begin. I'm on the job for 21 years now. We didn't learn in the academy back then about handling dogs, and I'm pretty sure the recruits don't learn about it now. There's also no training regarding handling cats, possums, raccoons, squirrels, chipmunks, or armadillos. I haven't gotten any calls about chipmunks or armadillos, though.  Police departments receive calls every day about every thing. There's a whole lot of things we get calls about that we're not trained in. Let's get back to dogs, though. I have animal experience, and everyone in the department knows that. I have a rabies pole. It's not issued equipment, and I won't disclose how I obtained it. I know how to use it. I have no problem responding to animal calls. But, that's me. How many cops in a department are you going to find that are that comfortable responding to animal calls? It's not what we're trained to do. Some cops just aren't comfortable with animals. Should they not be cops, then? I have a hard time seeing how dog handling can be incorporated into basic police training. Should dog-handling be a pre-requisite to becoming a police officer? That's ridiculous. It would be nice if dog-handling could be an in-service training course, but again I just don't see it. Are you going to volunteer your aggressive dog for training of novices? Ain't gonna happen. I'm not defending anyone. I'm not going to Monday Morning Quarter Back any situation, whether it be the shooting of a dog or a person. I'm totally pooped out right now ... so forgive me for rambling, but my bottom line is don't condemn the cops. Don't say that cops who shoot dogs shouldn't be cops. The cop that shot a dog yesterday could be the cop who saved your child with rescue breaths last week.



No one said they shouldn't be cops. Maybe the just should just have some basic knowledge of dog behavior instead of just shooting a dog that was not being aggressive.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Google "Army Field Manual 33-1" to learn more about propaganda techniques. You'll never watch the six o'clock news the same way again.


I don't have to. All you have to do is to compare the news from the US with the news you get in Europe. 
You'd be surprised how different the news are. Why do you think so many Europeans disagreed with both wars, Afghanistan and Iraq. We knew from the beginning that there are no WMD's out there. Some of my American friends, I don't know if they got brainwashed or whatever but they were so blind to believe anything and everything that it was impossible to talk to them about politics or religion in general because they were super-ultra-conservative. Well, today they are conservative leaning towards being liberal. But back then... oh my god...not saying everybody was ultra-conservative, I remember many that disagreed with what was going on.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I don't have to. All you have to do is to compare the news from the US with the news you get in Europe.
> You'd be surprised how different the news are. Why do you think so many Europeans disagreed with both wars, Afghanistan and Iraq. We knew from the beginning that there are no WMD's out there. Some of my American friends, I don't know if they got brainwashed or whatever but they were so blind to believe anything and everything that it was impossible to talk to them about politics or religion in general because they were super-ultra-conservative. Well, today they are conservative leaning towards being liberal. But back then... oh my god...not saying everybody was ultra-conservative, I remember many that disagreed with what was going on.


I don't even know whats going on in the war, I have heard so many things from so many people and sources its crazy.I just want our troops to come home.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I don't even know whats going on in the war, I have heard so many things from so many people and sources its crazy.I just want our troops to come home.


I pretty much stopped following it too because it would drive me crazy. Especially with my husband deploying once we get to the states, I just don't want to see it. Plus I've been involved with troop support and seen all those guys at the hospital at Landstuhl, dealt with PTSD and people that wanted to kill themselves for five years. I just can't take it anymore. I literally withdrew myself from everything I was involved because at one point it felt like I was there myself because of everything you can see and hear. I sucked it all in and once I was told that I show signs of secondary PTSD I quit with everything because I had the choice. I volunteered and as a volunteer you can quit. It's not your job and if you start showing signs of secondary PTSD than you need to stop. It ate me up and once it's starts eating you up you got to stop. 

Many people can't believe it but there are people that are addicted to support the troops. They give their last shirt and even though they don't have food themselves they send it downrange because they can't help it. I've seen addicted volunteers in my time with Soldiers Angels and they had to put out a warning to all "Angels" to not get themselves drawn into it. I was one of those addicteds because you just can't help it. And now.. even though I never wanted to have to do anything with the military ever again, I am married to a Soldier. But I am much much wiser... and know what I can handle and what I can't handle. :wild:


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I pretty much stopped following it too because it would drive me crazy. Especially with my husband deploying once we get to the states, I just don't want to see it. Plus I've been involved with troop support and seen all those guys at the hospital at Landstuhl, dealt with PTSD and people that wanted to kill themselves for five years. I just can't take it anymore. I literally withdrew myself from everything I was involved because at one point it felt like I was there myself because of everything you can see and hear. I sucked it all in and once I was told that I show signs of secondary PTSD I quit with everything because I had the choice. I volunteered and as a volunteer you can quit. It's not your job and if you start showing signs of secondary PTSD than you need to stop. It ate me up and once it's starts eating you up you got to stop.
> 
> Many people can't believe it but there are people that are addicted to support the troops. They give their last shirt and even though they don't have food themselves they send it downrange because they can't help it. I've seen addicted volunteers in my time with Soldiers Angels and they had to put out a warning to all "Angels" to not get themselves drawn into it. I was one of those addicteds because you just can't help it. And now.. even though I never wanted to have to do anything with the military ever again, I am married to a Soldier. But I am much much wiser... and know what I can handle and what I can't handle. :wild:


I am scared too for my neighbor who is in the Marines, I have another friend who is in the Marines(a girl), another friend who is in the army, and another who is in the Navy, and 2 vets were my college English class. My brother wants to join the Air Force. Both my dad's dad and my mom's dad were in the Air Force and Military and my dad almost joined but he had braces.I almost joined the Army. My great great(I forgot how many greats exactly( was in the Royal Air Force and helped bring down a bunch of Nazi Airplanes.) It must be in my blood.:crazy:.

But there isn't a moment where I am thankful for them and I don't hesitate to tell them thank you(I get teary eyed sometimes). Please tell your husband thank you!And thank you for your support for supporting the troops!


Scary thing is, I am very good at Military video games, the combat parts.I don't know if that means anything.lol.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

My grand dad fought in WWII. He was young when they drafted him and he survived France and Russia. My grand-grand dad was killed by the Americans, but that's war.. it is nasty business. 

My dad was drafted during the cold war era, he used to be a tanker and I grew up right next to a Barracks in a small village. 

My Kindergarden/pre-school teacher once asked (when we were kids) what we wanted to be when we are adults and I wanted to be an American Soldier because they bring peace and freedom and stability. That is how we grew up. 

My School used to be a concentration camp and they have a museum in the basement. I didn't know what an impact that has as a child and all I knew is that the Americans saved our country and that my grandparents are forever thankful and my parents too. While many don't agree with Afghanistan and Iraq we will never forget what has been done for us. 

The Generations today will never understand why we feel the way we do and that sometimes you have no choice but to fight for what you believe in.

...and now we are waaay offtopic. LOL


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Yep.lol.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

So, it came to me as I was putting cloths in the washer, who is going to pay for all of this extra training? Money doesn't magically come out of no where. And when is the yell for more and more training for unforseeable things going to stop? We cannot train every cop for every possible thing that might or might not happen. There isn't enough time or money in the world for it.

There are bad cops, there always will be. Its the same with every other occupation out there though so I see no reason why cops should be singled out. Everyone has some story to tell about some cop who did this or that. My brothers friends sisters uncle's wife's father was beat up by a cop and shot his dog!

If people would control their dogs it wouldnt be a problem, and its easy to side arm quaterback after the fact 200 miles away when you don't know all the details or people involved.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

I had four paragraphs typed out to refute Selzer's post, but then it occurred to me...

Why am I wasting my time? I'm never going to change his mind. The media brainwash is just too effective for one person to fight.

My dogs need to be walked.


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## jan & jim (Jan 22, 2009)

Hunther's Dad and Equus50, kudos on some great posts. I'm a retired sergeant after 32 years with a municipal PD. The points made here in regards to the media are spot on. Most officers that I've known over the years are dog lovers & family oriented. On occassion a "klinker" will slip through the hiring and training processes. These are the ones that often make the negative headlines. Contrary to what many think, we don't really care to work with these types.
Mrs.K, don't fret it over here. I know things get a little silly here in the U.S., but in most places in this country people are pretty down to earth and tolerant of differences!
Jim


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Hunther's Dad said:


> .................
> If it's a choice between me getting 230 stitches, broken bones, rabies shots, months in rehab and therapy for the psychological consequences of a dog bite, and shooting...guess what?...........


Very well said! I agree 100%


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> that's a reason to bring your dog in. but, they will run through your back yard, dog or no dog.


 
Doing their job. As dangerous as it may be.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I don't have to. All you have to do is to compare the news from the US with the news you get in Europe.
> You'd be surprised how different the news are. Why do you think so many Europeans disagreed with both wars, Afghanistan and Iraq. We knew from the beginning that there are no WMD's out there. Some of my American friends, I don't know if they got brainwashed or whatever but they were so blind to believe anything and everything that it was impossible to talk to them about politics or religion in general because they were super-ultra-conservative. Well, today they are conservative leaning towards being liberal. But back then... oh my god...not saying everybody was ultra-conservative, I remember many that disagreed with what was going on.


If you are so against the US as you seem to sound maybe you would be happier to stay in Europe? Certainly sounds like you do prefer Europe or Germany.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Codmaster she doesn't know how she will prefer the US, but I do believe her husband is being stationed here on a long term or permanent basis- she has no choice. It's normal for someone to feel unsure and scared when they are moving to a new continent- try it sometime


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Zoeys mom said:


> Codmaster she doesn't know how she will prefer the US, but I do believe her husband is being stationed here on a long term or permanent basis- she has no choice. It's normal for someone to feel unsure and scared when they are moving to a new continent- try it sometime


Zoeysmom - there is always a choice.

BTW, before you give advice to someone it can be helpful to have a little knowledge. I *have *moved to another continent to live for a while.

And her post sounded like she had some real dislikes of the US, so the suggestion was if she fely that strongly about her dislike of the US, then don't come. She would probably enjoy staying in Germany as it certainly sounded much better than the US the way that she put it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> If you are so against the US as you seem to sound maybe you would be happier to stay in Europe? Certainly sounds like you do prefer Europe or Germany.



Jeez Codmaster, relax. I am not against the US. There are things i don't agree with and I, as everybody else can have my opinion on current affairs but that doesn't mean that I don't like the US as a whole. 

Am I worried? Yes, I am. I leave everything behind to follow my husband and I have to get adjusted to the thought that I will only go back to Germany for the occasional visit because my husband does not want to live in Germany. 

Yes, our economy is doing pretty good, we have an awesome social system and health insurance, we have a lot of perks but that doesn't mean that the States doesn't have it's perks too. I am very realistic and know what I am getting myself into but that doesn't mean that I am not worried and scared to leave everything behind I know and love because once I am over there I can't just drive over to my parents when I am bored because my husband is having his third staff duty shift that week.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Back to the original post. No, I don't think there is a problem with cops and dogs in general. Not to long ago, there was a video of a dog that completely tore a bumper off a police car. They didn't shoot the dog.

I think there are alot of bad owners out there that do not train their dogs, or they train them to be aggressive. I think we, the US, has had several incidences where pitbulls have attacked and killed people because of these bad owners. I think it must have made police a bit leary and some may tend to overreact. 

I don't think you will have anything to worry about. You don't let your dogs run wild. You work very hard to train them and have done a great job. What you will find, basing this on what others who have lived in Germany have said, is that your dogs won't be allowed in many of the places they may have been in Germany.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Jeez Codmaster, relax. I am not against the US. There are things i don't agree with and I, as everybody else can have my opinion on current affairs but that doesn't mean that I don't like the US as a whole.
> 
> Am I worried? Yes, I am. I leave everything behind to follow my husband and I have to get adjusted to the thought that I will only go back to Germany for the occasional visit because my husband does not want to live in Germany.
> 
> Yes, our economy is doing pretty good, we have an awesome social system and health insurance, we have a lot of perks but that doesn't mean that the States doesn't have it's perks too. I am very realistic and know what I am getting myself into but that doesn't mean that I am not worried and scared to leave everything behind I know and love because once I am over there I can't just drive over to my parents when I am bored because my husband is having his third staff duty shift that week.


Mrs. K.,
Not to worry - I am relaxed as usual. I guess that I got the wrong impression from one of your postings:
*"Why do you think so many Europeans disagreed with both wars, Afghanistan and Iraq. We knew from the beginning that there are no WMD's out there. Some of my American friends, I don't know if they got brainwashed or whatever but they were so blind to believe anything and everything that it was impossible to talk to them about politics or religion in general because they were super-ultra-conservative. Well, today they are conservative leaning towards being liberal. But back then... oh my god...not saying everybody was ultra-conservative, I remember many that disagreed with what was going on. "*

I can understand why someone would be a little apprehensive about coming to the US and dealing with the tremendous changes from another country - but it really is not like you might see on TV.

BTW, one of our best friends here is a woman from germany who came here a lot of years ago when she married a US Army gentleman. We have had some very interesting discussions about how things are different here in the US and in germany. But we do stay friends. We actually met about 3 years ago when we both joined the local dog obedience club as she also has a male GSD from the same breeder here in No CA.

Good luck with your move to and life in the US!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Once when I was a kid, late at night, I was walking down the road with my shepherd/hound dog mix off lead just hiking along. She was stealing cat food occasionally, but nobody knew that. She was not trained at all, and we were just walking along. 

A police officer pulled up and I said, "Don't run over my dog." [she was mostly black and it was dark.] He was highly afronted and said he wouldn't, like that was a terrible thing to think. I think that MOST cops are like that, they do not want to kill a dog, any dog, someone's pet, even a stray. Sometimes they do have to. 

But there are some that are a little to quick to pull out their firearm and shoot. They make headlines and they should. 

This is not about dogs and their ability as handlers. It is about bad decisions. If you are prone to making bad decisions with a gun, you are a liability. 

And it does not take a master's degree to break up a simple dog fight. Maybe a pit bull fight -- I would not know. But two ordinary dogs going at it, it does not take special training. How many of us who have broken up fights EVER had any training in it??? Why should cops? 

If a dog gets in the way of a serious police situation, and the officer feels that it is necessary to shoot the dog, so be it. That means that if your dogs attack an officer that busts into your house because he had the wrong address, his shooting your dogs was not the mistake, the mistake was the wrong address. If he thought he was going after a killer and dogs attacked him, he would have to do whatever it took to protect himself.

Dog parks are different. Dog parks are not hang outs for the criminal element. There is nothing there to draw them. 

And YES, cops should treat people differently. People minding there own business and going through life should be treated courteously. People suspected of committing crimes should be treated with suspicion. An old lady who is suspected of leaving a grocery store without paying for an item should not be thrown to the ground, cuffed and searched, like a hoodlum. The cops SHOULD have a good idea who lives somewhere before the swat team descends and shoots the dogs. If it is a three time loser with trained attack dogs and a dozen or more buddies, you would respond much differently than if it was the mayor. Not saying people should not be investigated, but there is something about excessive force.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Selzer, are you serious? That cops should treat people differently depending on what they may think about them?

All I can say is WOW!


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## jan & jim (Jan 22, 2009)

Selzer, just for the record one of my officers several years ago did write our mayor a ticket. A few village board members have recieved tickets over the years as well. No repercussions whatsoever.

There appear to be a number of people on here that are law enforcement or have someone close to them that is. Maybe some of us are a bit sensitive about comments that tend to condemn the LEO before all of the facts are in. I know I would rather rely on the final result of the investigation, rather than relying on the media to form my opinion. 
Jim


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Codmaster, what do you do to the old lady that absentmindedly left a store with her purchase, tackle her to the ground? break her hip? 

Old people break quicker and do not heal like younger people. 

You use what force is necessary for the situation and yes, that means treating people differently. 

Of course you should give a ticket to the mayor if he is speeding. 

But using the swat team to invade his home, shoot his dogs, parade the family downstairs in their underwear, and force his mother to the floor in the kitchen, well, one would think that if you got a tip to some drugs on the property, you would know where you are going and use whatever force necessary. 

To me, someone without a history of attacking or shooting at police should be allowed to answer the door, and let the officers enter and search. 

A three time loser who has already shot at police would be treated a bit differently. The Special Weapons team would probably be necessary.


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## Equus5O (Apr 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> Codmaster, what do you do to the old lady that absentmindedly left a store with her purchase, tackle her to the ground? break her hip?
> 
> Old people break quicker and do not heal like younger people.
> 
> ...


You truly haven't got a clue.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Who are you? Are you a new police officer hear to grace the board? Are you pretending? Do we believe you? Do we not? I do not know you. It is the beauty of the internet. 

I truly haven't got a clue whether you have a clue about anything either.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Equus5O said:


> You truly haven't got a clue.


 
Nor does it seem like she wants a clue! Heh! Heh!


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## Equus5O (Apr 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> Who are you? Are you a new police officer hear to grace the board? Are you pretending? Do we believe you? Do we not? I do not know you. It is the beauty of the internet.
> 
> I truly haven't got a clue whether you have a clue about anything either.


Read further back, honey. 

You have no concept of policing. It's all fine and dandy to have fantasies and pre-conceived notions of what an ideal world should be. This isn't fantasy world. It isn't an ideal world. Welcome to reality. You're spouting nonsensical ideas of how police officers, which does include me, should do our jobs. You have no clue.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Codmaster, what do you do to the old lady that absentmindedly left a store with her purchase, tackle her to the ground? break her hip? *Would you want a cop to do that to a teenager who did the same thing? How about a white/minority teenager? treat these guys differently? or maybe it is a boy/girl thing so the cops should treat girls differently?*
> 
> *BTW, predjudice is a terrible thing and here you are encouraging it. It also could be called "Stereotyping". Sounds like you are all behaind it, right? Just by cops or should we all practice it?*
> 
> ...


So someones past history would allow the SWAT team to go in guns blazing because they have shot at the cops in the past? More cautious yes but not to what you indicate. Besides how do you know who is in the house when they arrive - maybe only the bad guys grandmother is home - want SWAT to bust in?


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## jan & jim (Jan 22, 2009)

Selzer, with all due respect (and I do mean that, seeing that you have been a member & involved in this forum for quite some time) I have to agree with Equus50: You do not have a clue, especially about law enforcement. The examples you use to try to make your points are just, well, bizarre.
Jim


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

jan & jim said:


> Maybe some of us are a bit sensitive about comments that tend to condemn the LEO before all of the facts are in. Jim


 
I'd say that's pretty much the crust of it. It's not so much we are trying to defend everything a cop becomes involved in. It's because I personally resent; 

1. A cop is convicted because of his positon. (plenty of examples on this board)

2. Comments usually include all police rather than the actions of one. (plenty of examples in this and the other thread)

3. A semingly automatic assumption of one side to the story. (not in favor of the cop). 

4. Bringing "facts" into a discussion that are not in evidence. ( Plenty of examples in the last two threads)

Personally, I rarely defend the actions of an officer when all that available is what the media wants us to see. It usually only incites those that truly enjoy trashing the police. There isn't an attempt to understand anything else that might have happened. I make comments just to present another perspective. As is evident in many of these discussions, a different perspective is not welcome, unless it's part of the amen chorus.

DFrost

4.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I have nothing against cops, I have tons of respect for them especially since they basically risk everything for us.I was in ROP Law Enforcement in high school, I love alot of cop shows, and considered(and still do) being a cop or being in Law Enforcement as a career.

Anyone who owns a gun whether it be the nice old lady who bakes pies and cookies, to the high school drop out, to the rich couple in the hamptons, to the average person, people need to be careful with guns. Stop generalizing and thinking just because one cop is bad that all cops are bad. There the ones who just want to be a cop because of the power, authority, and to look cool, and then there those who are in it to help, serve an protect. 

To the all the people on this board who are part of Law Enforcement, thank you for being what a cop is a should be and for doing what you do every day and making it safe for me to sleep at night.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I have nothing against cops, I have tons of respect for them especially since they basically risk everything for us.I was in ROP Law Enforcement in high school, I love alot of cop shows, and considered(and still do) being a cop or being in Law Enforcement as a career.
> 
> Anyone who owns a gun whether it be the nice old lady who bakes pies and cookies, to the high school drop out, to the rich couple in the hamptons, to the average person, people need to be careful with guns. Stop generalizing and thinking just because one cop is bad that all cops are bad. There the ones who just want to be a cop because of the power, authority, and to look cool, and then there those who are in it to help, serve an protect.
> 
> To the all the people on this board who are part of Law Enforcement, thank you for being what a cop is a should be and for doing what you do every day and making it safe for me to sleep at night.


Very well said!


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Okay, I've been out of this discussion for a while and I'm now wading back in...lol.

As to the money for training the police - I think it would be worth it given how many MILLIONS of dogs are in the US. IMO, it's not about training the police for every little thing that can come up, but dogs are in the majority of households. They can be part of any crime scene, household dispute, etc. that the police respond to. They are a BIG part of American life. It's not like we're using resources for something that cops would rarely encounter. Trust me, they find ways to waste money on much less productive things. Heh.

Secondly, I agree about the media bias and the fact that people jump to the wrong conclusions...and with the fact that people shouldn't convict the police officer simply because of his job. However, in the other thread, his job became an issue when the public was informed that they had to reopen the case after closing it in one day. It gave the impression, whether right or wrong, that maybe his job factored into how quickly the matter was resolved. That was my quibble. If one shouldn't convict because one is a cop, neither should one get a free pass. I mean, why would they have to do more interviews? Shouldn't that have been done during the inital investigation? In that particular case, things don't add up. But I wouldn't apply that to all cops. The only reason I gave examples of police corruption was to explain why I don't just give someone the benefit of the doubt just because of their job title. Corruption is everywhere no matter what you do. That wasn't meant to be a blanket statement of all cops but more to point out that cops aren't immune to doing the wrong thing. Just like any other profession.

I also have to say that having/owning a gun is a tremendous responsibility. I would like to know that they are being used correctly and responsibly. 

[small voice]I just don't see how shooting a gun at a public dog park was a good thing or even necessary.[/small voice]


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

IllinoisNative said:


> Okay, I've been out of this discussion for a while and I'm now wading back in...lol.
> 
> As to the money for training the police - I think it would be worth it given how many MILLIONS of dogs are in the US. IMO, it's not about training the police for every little thing that can come up, but dogs are in the majority of households. They can be part of any crime scene, household dispute, etc. that the police respond to. They are a BIG part of American life. It's not like we're using resources for something that cops would rarely encounter. Trust me, they find ways to waste money on much less productive things. Heh.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% especially with the last part.


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## jan & jim (Jan 22, 2009)

First off to Jessiewessie99: Thank you! 

IllinoisNative: I agree that no one is above the law, and in some instances law enforcement should be held to a higher standard. But too often when a story hits the press you need to take a step back & wait for the rest of the story. With this guy supposedly being a federal officer, if he did screw up he will be hammered (probably fired). And if the story as written ends up being supported by the investigation then I hope he is removed.
(By the way: greetings from a fellow Illinois person!)
Jim


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

jan & jim said:


> IllinoisNative: I agree that no one is above the law, and in some instances law enforcement should be held to a higher standard. But too often when a story hits the press you need to take a step back & wait for the rest of the story.


I totally hear what you are saying about the press and quick judgments. I don't disagree with you on that. I just wonder perhaps, if this incident wasn't handled and settled within a day, would the reaction have been the same? Sometimes, just knowing TIIC are handling the situation and taking it seriously, can diffuse the situation so it doesn't look like someone is getting away with something. While the media is to blame in most cases (LOL) and maybe even this one, I have to wonder if the people who handled this whole ordeal did a disservice to everyone involved by how rapidly they "resolved" it. 



> With this guy supposedly being a federal officer, if he did screw up he will be hammered (probably fired). And if the story as written ends up being supported by the investigation then I hope he is removed.


Yeah, it's just an unfortunate situation for everyone involved.



> (By the way: greetings from a fellow Illinois person!)
> Jim


Greeting! I look forward to posting with you!


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## Equus5O (Apr 27, 2010)

I learned today that this Fall during firearms qualifications, we'll be viewing a video on animal control/dog handling. That'll be my department's answer to the controversies seen recently regarding cops and dogs.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Equus5O said:


> I learned today that this Fall during firearms qualifications, we'll be viewing a video on animal control/dog handling. That'll be my department's answer to the controversies seen recently regarding cops and dogs.


With so many dogs in good, and bad homes I think this is a great review. The police have so many variables that they must assess in a split second and by adding dog handling knowledge can only help. 

Shooting a dog when necessary as part of the job must not be an easy thing to do especially if you do not have the skills to deal with aggressive dogs. If someone told the dog to attack then, I cannot find fault, but shooting a family pet because the police officer over-reacted if the dog became uncertain/uncomfortable with them would be justified public outcry.

By adding formal dog handling/control into training will go a long way.

About six months ago, while walking Dakota, I assisted a blind man who was lost. There was no one home and he was not sure if we even had the right house. I called the police and waited for them to arrive. When they came up the driveway I greeted them. The both took one look at my GSD, split up and approached with caution. I didn't blame them. They had no idea who I was, or what my intentions were, and I had a big dog. They both appeared to be unsure about my dog even though she was being very good and sitting nicely at my side.

I really wanted to use that opporutnity as a training session and have them both pat and treat her, but I could see that they were both not comfortable with her so I just went on my way. 

I noticed too that Dakota was also more cautious around them, She didn't move to greet them like she would have if they were anyone else walking up towards us. . She just sat by my side. These two large people, dressed in dark blue with vests, hats, and equipment hanging off them were very different from what she has seen before. She became very aloof.

I have since introduced her to a uniformed police officer, but only one other. The guy that I was talking to said that it is not uncommon for a dog to bark at them that would not normally would bark at a person.

I think I need to do some more socializing with the police, firemen, etc., to get her used to the appearance of people that could come to our rescue.


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## Equus5O (Apr 27, 2010)

Caledon said:


> .
> 
> *By adding formal dog handling/control into training will go a long way.*
> 
> .


I don't think that viewing a video can be construed as formal dog handling/control. Hands-on instruction would be formal, in my opinion. But, that fits into the fantasy land, ideal world structure. A one hour video is what we get in real life.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Equus5O said:


> I don't think that viewing a video can be construed as formal dog handling/control. Hands-on instruction would be formal, in my opinion. But, that fits into the fantasy land, ideal world structure. A one hour video is what we get in real life.


One step at a time. Maybe if the department has a K9 unit they can use that for hands on training or a local animal shelter(since that would have all sorts of breeds)


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Equus5O said:


> I learned today that this Fall during firearms qualifications, we'll be viewing a video on animal control/dog handling. That'll be my department's answer to the controversies seen recently regarding cops and dogs.


WE had a class conducted by the HSUS for inservice. I know there are other departments in the area that were required to have that training as well. In fact, I believe POST made it a requirement for all departments in the STate. It was mostly BS, as it pertained mainly to pets. They (instructors) didn't understand the level of aggression we sometimes come across. 

dFrost


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## Equus5O (Apr 27, 2010)

DFrost said:


> WE had a class conducted by the HSUS for inservice. I know there are other departments in the area that were required to have that training as well. In fact, I believe POST made it a requirement for all departments in the STate. It was mostly BS, as it pertained mainly to pets. They (instructors) didn't understand the level of aggression we sometimes come across.
> 
> dFrost


I was sent to an in-service course hosted by the HSUS, but that was strictly about fighting. And, you're never going to find (I don't think so, anyway) an in-service course that's hands-on, with live animals, be they aggressive or not.


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## Equus5O (Apr 27, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> One step at a time. Maybe if the department has a K9 unit they can use that for hands on training or a local animal shelter(since that would have all sorts of breeds)


No, we don't have a K-9 Unit. And, really, do you think that K-9 officers are going to permit their dogs to be used for hands-on training? I don't think there's a chance in **** that the Chief of any department could force that upon the K-9 Unit.

And, if you ran a shelter, would you permit the local police department to come in and man-handle (don't take offense at that term) your rescued dogs? I don't think so. 

You're coming up with ideas, and that's great. But, they're just not realistic.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Equus5O said:


> No, we don't have a K-9 Unit. And, really, do you think that K-9 officers are going to permit their dogs to be used for hands-on training? I don't think there's a chance in **** that the Chief of any department could force that upon the K-9 Unit.
> 
> .


 
We do have a K-9 Unit. In fact, I'm the director of it. I can answer that question - - - NO. There is a difference in the type of aggression from a trained dog and dog that is either being territorial or displaying someother form of fear aggression. Trained dogs are not only living animals, but expensive pieces of equipment. Yes, that's what I said. To me they are an asset to be used. If they aren't working I try to fix them. If I can't fix them, I replace them. Sentiment is for the handler. 

DFrost


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> One step at a time. Maybe if the department has a K9 unit they can use that for hands on training or a local animal shelter(since that would have all sorts of breeds)


You just gave me a great idea for our office's training day. I have a video called _The Language Of Dogs_ by Sarah Kaljnais. It shows behavior that usually occurs just before a dog bites. That would be a good "first step."


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Equus5O said:


> No, we don't have a K-9 Unit. And, really, do you think that K-9 officers are going to permit their dogs to be used for hands-on training? I don't think there's a chance in **** that the Chief of any department could force that upon the K-9 Unit.
> 
> And, if you ran a shelter, would you permit the local police department to come in and man-handle (don't take offense at that term) your rescued dogs? I don't think so.
> 
> You're coming up with ideas, and that's great. But, they're just not realistic.


No I was thinking about helping with the training of the dogs that come into shelters. When they first come in they aren't trained.

Otherwise the only thing I can think of are video games.


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## Equus5O (Apr 27, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> No I was thinking about helping with the training of the dogs that come into shelters. When they first come in they aren't trained.
> 
> Otherwise the only thing I can think of are video games.


Helping with the training of the shelter dogs is great for the cops that want to volunteer their spare time. It's not a practical concept for police training. We have to get in, contain and control the animal, and protect the people. Are there cops that don't have the common sense (or what you and I see as common sense) to effectively reach those goals? Of course there are. Just as there are plenty of cops that don't have the common sense and caution to get in, contain and control humans and protect the people without shooting someone.

In fact, we do have video games of a sort for training (FATS), but that's for firearms. Again, I don't see how that's practical for dogs.

If people want us to have specialized training for handling dogs, then we also need training for handling goats, horses, cattle, deer, coyotes, sheep ... name a few more animals. Maybe I'm being silly in that not all areas have problems with those animals, but some do. We have to deal with how practical it is.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Equus5O said:


> Helping with the training of the shelter dogs is great for the cops that want to volunteer their spare time. It's not a practical concept for police training. We have to get in, contain and control the animal, and protect the people. Are there cops that don't have the common sense (or what you and I see as common sense) to effectively reach those goals? Of course there are. Just as there are plenty of cops that don't have the common sense and caution to get in, contain and control humans and protect the people without shooting someone.
> 
> In fact, we do have video games of a sort for training (FATS), but that's for firearms. Again, I don't see how that's practical for dogs.
> 
> If people want us to have specialized training for handling dogs, then we also need training for handling goats, horses, cattle, deer, coyotes, sheep ... name a few more animals. Maybe I'm being silly in that not all areas have problems with those animals, but some do. We have to deal with how practical it is.


Well what sort of training do Animal Cops have? Maybe they can help.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Equus5O said:


> If people want us to have specialized training for handling dogs, then we also need training for handling goats, horses, cattle, deer, coyotes, sheep ... name a few more animals. Maybe I'm being silly in that not all areas have problems with those animals, but some do. We have to deal with how practical it is.


I've addressed that in one of the two threads on this matter but can't remember which...lol. Cops are far more likely to encounter dogs since the majority of homes have them. The majority of home owners don't own the other animals. Chances are, when you go on a domestic dispute call or enter someone's home, they will have a dog on the premises. The dog will usually be indoors and that may present a problem entering the home to check it out a potential problem. That usually isn't an issue with the horses, goats, deer, coyotes, etc.

But, IMO, common sense dictates that cops are far more likely to have run-ins with domestic dogs given the millions that exist in the US, that most homes have them, and the great number of strays roaming the streets.

Dogs are different than the other animals you mentioned given their proximity to humans, their domestication, and their protective instincts.


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