# Questions about pups



## Colarson (Jun 13, 2015)

Hello there!

I came across this site after a friend mentioned i could get some good information here. Im looking for a black and tan, male puppy mostly just as a companion but I would also like him for protection around the house. I currently live in Louisville. After some searching i found a breeder (though i feel she may be a byb) who recently had some pups. They are currently 4 weeks old. The mother is a black and tan and the father is an all white gsd. She says both are working dogs and have beeen penhip tested. The puppies will be tested at 2 months and will come with a one year hip guarantee. I was wondering if i could get some opinions on before driving an hour to go see the pups in person. Thanks in advance!


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Personally I'd question breeding the white with the black and tan.


----------



## Colarson (Jun 13, 2015)

zyppi said:


> Personally I'd question breeding the white with the black and tan.


Could you expand a bit? Should i ask the breeder why they did that or would it come off as offensive?


----------



## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I think what zyppi is trying to say is that there is really no reason a breeder would pursue a breeding between a black and tan GSD and a white one. Is there a website the breeder uses that we can look into her a bit more? There also arent' too many white GSDs that are traditionally considered 'working dogs'. Not impossible, just not common. I would also be interested in why she used penhip and not OFA for hips?


----------



## Colarson (Jun 13, 2015)

Unfortunatlely, the breeder doesnt have a website. A red flag for sure, but I figured i asked. She said both are trained therapy dogs. Im kinda getting the feeling I should steer clear of this lot? If so does anyone know a decent breeder in kentucky or indiana?


----------



## Colarson (Jun 13, 2015)

"I picked him first about 2 years ago bc she didn't ask for a stud fee lol. I was new to this and all she wanted was pick of the litter. I spoke to another woman that had used him and said the pups turned out well mannered and smart. So I did it. The pups these two produced were so beautiful and all the parents were calling me to tell me how smart they were. It was a perfect match! All my past litters from these two have done excellent at school. One has become a police dog. One is a PTSD dog...one is a companion for an elderly man. The list of how awesome they are just grows."


This is what she sent me after i asked about the breeding.


----------



## bellagriff (Jul 1, 2012)

Sounds to me like the breeder doesn't really know what he/she is doing. He picked a dog simply because it was inexpensive and supposedly got lucky. Even if the two dogs are a good match, I would not personally support this type of breeding because almost 100% of the time it does not further the breed and honestly I would 100% consider this backyard breeding.

I am not an expert on breeding as I have never done it, but I do know that it takes a lot of work and expertise to correctly match two dogs for breeding. The whole goal is to offset any deficiencies the mother and father may have, not just find the easiest/cheapest option.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Ask for references. Ask which police department has the police dog, and verify that it is a dog from her. Knowing something about what it takes for a dog to make it as a police k9, it is very unlikely that such a breeding from a novice of random dogs picked because there was no stud fee produced a police dog. 

Ask for the pennhip documents, pedigree of the parents, and ask how old the parents are. 
Sad to say, but you wouldn't believe how many people have gotten puppies from byb (because at the time, they didn't know better), and were assured that their dog can and will become a police k9, a Service dog, a SAR dog, or all sorts of other claims, from pairing like the ones from this breeder, only to be very disappointed when the pups proved to not have the traits required to be such things.

Learning about GSDs and what makes a good breeder is a big task for a newbie. You can start reading here if you would like to become more discerning in your breeder search:

(German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels) 

and as you start looking at different breeder websites, keep this information in mind:

How to tell a good breeder website from a bad one | Ruffly Speaking

Also, posting people's emails to you without their permission may be seen as an invasion of their privacy. Best to just summarize their emails in your own words.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Colarson said:


> The puppies will be tested at 2 months


Tested for what? You can't test hips at 2 months; they're not fully formed yet.


----------



## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I would steer clear of this breeding. Sounds very much like a backyard breeder who has no idea what they're doing. 

There are different lines within the German Shepherd Dog breed. Some are great for working or very athletic homes, others are perhaps more suited to be a loving family pet. What are you looking to do with a future dog? That will help people lead you to a breeder that is producing dogs that would be a good fit for you.


----------



## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

A one year hip guarantee is essentially useless. Hips are are guaranteed for a year but OFA and PennHip test at at least 2 to be certified properly. What happens if your dog has bad hips at 2? Breeder just shrugs their shoulders and goes too bad. You're one year past the guarantee.

By offering a 'guarantee' on 'good health' this breeder is essentially parroting what good breeders do in order to appear legitimate. I'd pass. Ask around and do some research and people here can - and will - steer you in the right direction.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think penn hip and the SV will certify hips at 1 year. That is not necessarily why people go with them. People feel PennHip gives a better diagnostic test, and those who perform the test must be trained in giving the test, so that, in itself would not turn me off. 

As for breeding a black and tan to a white. Well it could be done by someone producing white shepherds to reintroduce traits lost by the smaller gene pool. No reason to breed the two colors from a black and tan viewpoint, not unless you had customers looking for white and were hoping to throw one or more. This would be a turn-off for me, because I would not want to introduce white into my lines. But as a pet owner, I would just ask questions and get the reasoning.

Availability and no stud fee is not a good enough reason to breed to a dog with an AKC/SV disqualifying fault in my opinion.

Working dogs are one thing. Emotional support dogs and therapy dogs are another. People can put a therapy dog certification on ANY dog, pretty much. Ok, if the dog is going to attack small children or cannot sit without urinating it isn't going to pass a Therapy Dog test, but most dogs can achieve this with an experienced handler/owner. 

A PTSD dog. Again, you have to ask questions and know how to ask the questions and know what to listen for. Some dogs can calm a person and function as a sort of service dog for people with PTSD. People train their own dogs. There is no program to train dogs to deal with PTSD. I have PTSD, and can call all my dogs PTSD dogs. And while they have an effect on me, it would be certainly be some form of lying/misrepresentation to do so. To take my dog into an apartment complex under laws for emotional support dogs would also probably be a form of cheating. But many people do call their animals emotional support dogs or service dogs without meeting the qualifications for this. But we cannot really ask, and no one need defend the designation. 

Upon hearing that this is the work that the breeding dog does, I would probably be interested, and ask what the dog does for its owner during an episode, probably in a tone that suggested I was highly impressed and wanted to know how awesome the dog was. On hearing how the dog performs its duties, I could then make a decision on whether people are passing off their pet as a service dog. 

I think there are two forms in which dogs help people with PTSD. If the sufferer has panic attacks or hallucinations a dog might be trained to take an active roll, get between the person and others, and get the person space, ground the person by an action, and staying with him. There may be other things they do as well. People who have emotional problems can be helped by owning a pet that requires them to get out of bed, feed, and exercise it, to care for it, to give them a feeling of security, to give them a project -- this is a pet. It does not mean it is not beneficial to soldiers or others that have had some traumatic issues. But it is not anything that the dog gets a merit badge for and a +++ for breeding. 

Not having a web site is not a red flag. 

All in all, from what you said, yes, you know already that this breeder is not a good one. Knowing that the puppies still need home, and the price is right makes it harder to walk away from the litter. The thing is, though, that if you buy a puppy from this breeder, she will breed her bitch again and it will encourage poor breeding. 

Will the pups all be sold? Probably. Will it make a difference to not buy from the person? To her, no. Sorry, but there are enough people out there that want a GSD and are not going to figure out what they should know before going and getting one. To you? Probably. 

People who breed to make puppies using dogs out of convenience irrespective of the dogs behind them and the individual dogs strengths and weaknesses, are more likely to create dogs that have physical or temperament issues that cannot be ironed out with simply training or vet care. Maybe this means a behaviorist rather than a trainer. Maybe it means working harder at socialization and putting the dog in a crate when company comes over. Maybe it means dealing with digestive issues or allergies or joint problems. Going with a decent breeder does not guaranty that there will be no problems, but we talk of trying to stack the deck in our favor when we are shelling out for a dog.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

PennHip will certify at 16 weeks


----------



## Colarson (Jun 13, 2015)

Thank you all for the useful information and input. It is much appreciated. After reading what everyone typed up, ive decided to steer clear of this to save myself the hassel and money in the long run. If anyone knows of a good breeder in indiana or kentucky, please let me know. I am looking for pet quality gsd, but would also like it to have good protection instincts for around the house. Thanks again!


----------



## Ayce (Feb 23, 2013)

Hi Colarson,

Just read your post and thought I'd mention a breeder in KY. I've spoken to her myself before and she has given me a lot of good advice and insight. She is also active on this forum as well (qbchottu). Her kennel name is NadarK9, just google it and I'm sure you'll find her website (unfortunately I am unable to post links yet).

I'm not sure if she will have what you are looking for, but might be a place for you to start.

Good luck on your puppy hunt!


----------



## Colarson (Jun 13, 2015)

Ayce,

Thank you for the recommendation! I will be getting in contact with her soon.


----------



## Ayce (Feb 23, 2013)

You are very welcome! I hope you will be able to find what you need. Let us know how your puppy hunt goes!


----------



## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

breeding a white with a black and tan seems like a complete accident, which leads me to believe they aren't very responsible "breeders" Although, back yard breeders arent bad if your looking for a pet..(I don't mean they aren't bad, they are, very irresponsible people..) I don't do shows or anything, and I prefer to save a puppy from who knows what kind of life.. makes me feel better. So I go the backyard route.. Bear is awesome, so smart and sweet, and has recently started barking in the middle of the night when he hears something.. / its usually nothing but makes me feel safe.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My female came from kleinenhain/Wanda brown in ky. Very happy with her. She is also a member here.


----------

