# Raising two puppies in one house...



## HwyStarJoe (Aug 9, 2015)

Hi again all,

I've pretty much got the point that GSD puppies are crazy lunatics that bite a lot and are smart as whips, and can carry enough pee and poo in them that it seems like they're magicians. LOL!
Klaus and Ruger (yes we have 7 week-old brothers!!) have their own personalities already and are very smart.

My only real concern at this point is how we're housing them. We have a large fenced-in yard, but they're too small at this point to take advantage. We've kept them confined to the kitchen since we picked them up Saturday, with gates blocking the doorways. I read that we should separate them so they have their own spaces and can be more individual. Right now they're on the same bedding in the corner, or under the kitchen table. They grew up in a litter of 11 in a small doghouse so they're used to it I suppose.
I've separated their food bowls as far apart as possible, but they share a water bowl.
Again, the wife won't crate...as much as I want to do the right thing, she won't crate.

One option is to let them stay outdoors in an igloo, or two igloos...one for each. Is it not a good idea at this young age? They grew up that way. Once our son goes back to school in Sept., they'll be home alone except when we can run home at lunchtime.
Can I build them each a doghouse and leave them outdoors now, before Winter comes that is. The wife will make them stay indoors in the Winter which is fine with me, but they're going to be at that "terrible age" in a few months. I don't know how we'll control them from destroying the house.

I know they need their own "homes" so they can get away from each other and develope...I just don't know when or the best way for our situation.

Thanks folks...
Joe


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh oh , I sense another two puppies at once = one big mistake thread 

no crate ? with two pups = crazyiness

relegating them to a back yard to be alone together for prolonged time , two males yet = heart brake, accident waiting to happen and complete dissatisfaction for either one of them being a nice companion animal . They will be so into each other - wild pups

and you say they grew up that way , meaning what minimal socialization?

if they are not raised right then at some later date when the social experience , training , house manners, or lack of any one of them, will make it very hard to rehome one or both


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Aside from the fact that seven weeks is too young to be away from the dam, go ahead and read "two puppies at once" or "littermates" on this forum and see why that is an extremely difficult thing to do, even if you have loads and loads of time to spend training each dog. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...m/forum/login.php?do=login&ss=8584j6224256j21

It sounds to me as if you bought two puppies, and in a couple of weeks, they will be two puppies alone. 
Two littermates would require a huge investment in time, money, and effort. 
In addition, no crates. It really sounds to me like a recipe for disaster, especially when they reach about a year old and very well could start fighting.

I think it's not too late to take one of these dogs back. That way, with the little time you have, at least you will be able to invest everything you've got into one dog, with the potential of success.


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## HwyStarJoe (Aug 9, 2015)

I wasn't prepared for those replies.
I'm willing to do whatever is right. It was an impulse 'buy' on her part. We went for one, and were going to get a rescue pup of some sort so they could be playmates, but she took two. Her thinking was, why not get litter mates so they can stay together. I know, I know... now I have to deal with it.
She has no intentions whatsoever to crate. Flat out refuses. She doesn't research before she does things like this.
I'm tired of saying 'Told you so...'


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Joe, I think her heart was in the right place and she had good intentions. But these are highly intelligent, highly active, thinking dogs that do not do well left alone in the yard, let alone as puppies. 
It takes about three years to raise a German Shepherd to be a decent dog, and even then, you have to be on your toes, because they are smart and will always try to get away with things if you do not have their trust and respect.

Spend a little time researching in this forum, many of us do not know what we would've done without it. Sometimes the best advice is the one you are not ready to hear. As far as not getting into things, my own dog was on a leash or tethered to me at all times, for one and a half years, when he was not crated or in a pen. I had my hands completely full with one, I think I would've torn my hair out if I had two.

I can't imagine having left him out in the yard by himself, they get into things, swallow sticks and rocks and mulch, if left alone they will find things to do, and you will not like what they come up with.

I'm sure the others will chime in, we have had members who got two, decided to keep them despite what they read here, then came back and said they would never do it again.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

HwyStarJoe said:


> I wasn't prepared for those replies.
> I'm willing to do whatever is right. It was an impulse 'buy' on her part. We went for one, and were going to get a rescue pup of some sort so they could be playmates, but she took two. Her thinking was, why not get litter mates so they can stay together. I know, I know... now I have to deal with it.
> She has no intentions whatsoever to crate. Flat out refuses. She doesn't research before she does things like this.
> I'm tired of saying 'Told you so...'


You are patient...You impulse buy a TV, computer, gun, not a puppy. These dogs take alot of time and I just raised a puppy (he is 18 months old now). I can't imagine having 2 of him even now. I will wait till he is more calm and older. Make the hard decision now to give one of them back to the breeder, instead of making a really hard decision to get rid of one when they are trying to kill each other later and you/she is more attached to them. Not to say it can't be done (raising two puppies), but I would say it can't be done by most people. Good luck.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

left in isolation they become wildish -- under those circumstances it is going to be an unrewarding relationship and very difficult to rehome because the dogs won't be socialized properly

even getting a rescue at the same time wasn't a good idea 

the pet doesn't need a pet

maybe down the road , say , when the pup is mature , trained and you want to add another -- but that is at least a year , more like 18 months to 2 years down the road.

I don't think a "good" breeder would let two pups go to the same home . Seriously.
Impulsive purchase on your wife's point , convenience sale from the breeder's point.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

You are ready to completely change your life around, right? Raising a puppy is hard, raising littermates well and right is very very VERY hard. If you just leave them together they will bond with each other and you will sort of be on the outside. They will need more than their own homes. Hopefully Jake and Elwood will post and they can tell you how much they changed their lives around to raise the puppies well. Search the forum for littermates and raising two puppies. I just hope you really are ready for the investment that these buggers deserve.

Sorry to be a downer but when you hear this was an impulse buy for many of us that means you have no idea what you have done and this does not bode well for the puppies. 

Best.


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## HwyStarJoe (Aug 9, 2015)

I'm familair with these types of forums, as I administer another VerticalScope site myself. I know how this works and how to "read" the threads and get what people are trying to say, that's why I'm here. Ive learned what to trust and what to look sideways at. But my wife on the other hand...

I'm just as at fault here. We're very good at raising dogs, and she can turn a rabid racoon into a marshmellow. But from what you guys just laid on me, I'm crushed. I should have read up more on pure-bred GSDs before looking for one. I hate to feel defeated already.

I questioned why they were only 7 weeks, but they were all weened already, and they've tackled our deck steps already. They didnt have any stairs where we got them from. There's no way I could get her to return one. I wouldn't even utter the words.

If we could agree on things and compromise, it'd be easier for these guys. I don't want to raise enemies. I also don't want the house destroyed.
Like i said, I'm willing, but I need to know how to raise friends.

I'll dig thru more threads, and if I don't end up crying myself to sleep (LOL!), I'll try to get her to understand what the future could hold.

Thanks all


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Search Jake and Elwood, that is a person that posts here. Maybe shoot them a PM. Or go back to the earliest threads you can find. We tried to dissuade them as well. But they turn their lives over to those two dogs and there were still issues. You have to prepare to separate them a lot, train them separately, walk the separately, etc. You may need to prepare yourself that down the line they may not get a long and you may be looking at rehoming one. All depends. They are individuals but these are a dominant breed. You would be wise to get a good trainer that knows the protection breeds now and start working one on one with them. That is my best advise.


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## HwyStarJoe (Aug 9, 2015)

Thanks! I will


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Two puppies issue aside, not using the crate as a tool and aid in raising your puppies is shortsighted. I'm assuming your wife thinks they are too confining, and not fair to the pup. Our youngest is 1.5 years old. She is free to roam the house, we seldom crate her anymore. I can't tell you how many times I find her sleeping in her crate. Far from being a punishment it's her favorite place to nap. Share with your wife that the being surrounded and not overwhelmed by so many new things can be a comfort to your little ones. I never used the crate games, but a fresh bone with plenty of marrow and your pup will think he's in heaven.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Didn't see the thing about wife not wanting to use crates. Get a good trainer who can set her straight and do a reality check. Have the wife read this forum.


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## HwyStarJoe (Aug 9, 2015)

Looking for a serious trainer...trying to head off our future issues as soon as possible. I know we bit off more than seems possible, but we have to make this work.
I can't stomach ruining a dogs life. That's not acceptable. A GSD is what I've always wanted, and they deserve the best.

I'm going to speak with the only federally certified kennel master and master dog trainer in the area. I'm committed to making this work. Failure is not an option at this point.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what is your location?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

"How to raise friends"... These are dogs. Male dogs. German Shepherd dogs. 

Each will need training, training, and more training, rules, boundaries, things to do, and lots of structure. 

Each will need to be socialized, taught manners, taught the English language. Because dogs are not born knowing what our words mean. 
Your dog is a product of his genetics and of what you teach him. 

One thing you can't teach is to override his instincts. And if one, in a year or so, decides he wants to kill the other, no amount of effort on your part can override that urge, and no way to "make them friends." Especially since they are same sex siblings.




HwyStarJoe said:


> I can't stomach ruining a dogs life. That's not acceptable. A GSD is what I've always wanted, and they deserve the best.
> I'm committed to making this work. Failure is not an option at this point.


What about your life? Don't you deserve the best?

The best would be to be an only dog. Not only for the dog, but for you and your family. 
You know that now. 
If you've always wanted a GSD, get one.
One. 
And when that one is mature and trained, then start looking into getting another.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

How far are you from the Rochester area? 

Might want to look into Deb Zappia

Welcome! | ProFormance K9?s & Olgameister Kennels


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You are an hour from Proformance. Deb is getting ready for the WUSV. Call and talk to them. Here is the facebook page with some pictures/videos of their training.
https://www.facebook.com/ProformanceK9Pets/timeline


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I have litter mate females, they turned 5 this past July. If you and your wife are both "all in" it's doable, in our case it wasn't that difficult at all. The girls are "our" dogs, but we primarily trained one (we did work with the other occasionally). We took seperate classes for some time before taking any together, I wanna say it was over a year before that happened. Others have pointed out some threads on raising litter mates, give them a read.

The crate thing needs to get sorted out. There may come a time when one of yours may need to stay at the vet, a dog trained to use a crate will be much better off. If you decide to compete with them they'll need a crate. It becomes a safe place for them during down time. I'd discuss this with your wife, it's not just a way to confine them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how many times has this been said " Failure is not an option at this point"

You've had the pups for mere days, since Saturday and this is Monday .
An assertion like that is more ego than anything else , because it sure isn't reality. 

you also said "I'm willing to do whatever is right"

I don't know , have doubt that maybe the whole thing was impulsive. Litter nearby , go look, pick one , or two.

The breeder gave you health guarantees? Did the pups come with a vet certificate, worming , 1st vaccination?
Pedigree? 
Did they breed to any standard , work or test their dogs ?

"They grew up in a litter of 11 in a small doghouse so they're used to it "

I bet 11 pups were overwhelming so barely socialized - and this is very important . To unburden two of them in one fell swoop - whew , lucky . Probably give-away price .

This information is important because that is a guide to what the potentials are and what problems you might have.

Did you see the parents ? Were they at least social and of good temperament ? 

"can carry enough pee and poo in them that it seems like they're magicians"

this did make me laugh . At the same time I thought they must be eating some really junky food which creates these mountains of stinking poop.

the better the food , the less waste . The better the food the less peeing . 

they are in your kitchen ! who is in charge of sanitation? Eventually the urine will soak into your floorboards . No need for dieting , the smell will be so off putting. Seriously there needs to be a whole lot of discussion with Mrs. and a plan of action established .


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Joe,
Do you have children, plan to have children, friend/family have children? I shudder to think what would happen if a child got near a disagreement between "the boy's".

This is a recipe for disaster Joe. Your wife NEEDS to read the threads that were mentioned and realize what you are dealing with here.

Jake & Elroy's parents took off work for the first month (I think) when they got their pups.

Please return one of the pups.

Moms


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## HwyStarJoe (Aug 9, 2015)

Hi...thanks.
No children, just a teeneage boy.

I'm beside myself with regret now. I blame myself for not researching deeper. I guess we both only looked at this from a one-dog aspect.
Convincing my wife will not be easy.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

People have made mention of it but no one has made this clear as of why yet... Gsds are a breed that is prone to same sex aggression more so with females but that chance of aggression increases greatly with littermates. Even if you're committed to training them separately and keeping them separated, you need to realize that when they sexually mature there is a high chance of them deciding they want to kill each other. If you won't crate and that happens how will you keep them from fighting? Because if you're not willing to rehome then you'd have to live a crate and rotate lifestyle to keep them apart. 

It would be much easier for one of the puppies to be rehomed now then when it's an unruly potentially aggressive adult. Gsds are a lot of work to raise, my boy is about to turn 3 and he is just now turning into the dog I've wanted. I've put a ton of work training him, I cannot imagine doing it with 2 at once especially without crate training! This is a breed that is extremely people oriented, they are not a dog meant to live away from their family out in a backyard. If they live out there together, I guarantee you they will become unruly wild beasts that are more interested in each other than you. Dogs do not need dog friends.

Their breeder does not sound like a reputable one, no reputable breeder would sell littermates to an inexperienced family. So there is a greater chance that these dogs could end up with health or temperament issues because probably not a lot of thought was put into this breeding. If that does happen can you deal with it x2?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Joe, the reason we are telling you this --the truth --is because we love dogs. In particular, we love German Shepherds. Carmspack has been a GSD breeder for over 30 years, she knows what she is talking about. All of us have raised at least one German Shepherd. 

Take that regret and channel it into action. You don't have to convince your wife, have her come here and converse with us. If she loves dogs so much, I'm sure she wants the best for them.

Also, this is something that concerns me a lot: " Once our son goes back to school in Sept., they'll be home alone except when we can run home at lunchtime."

I can't imagine two,young GSD puppies, home alone, uncrated, all day long. Or in the backyard with two igloos.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

HwyStarJoe said:


> Hi...thanks.
> No children, just a teeneage boy.
> 
> I'm beside myself with regret now. I blame myself for not researching deeper. I guess we both only looked at this from a one-dog aspect.
> Convincing my wife will not be easy.


I really hope she can open her mind to listen to what others have experienced, the knowledge gathered here from threads and that you can convince her Joe.

Sending positive thoughts your way!
Moms


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## The Wild Bunch (Jun 17, 2015)

Hi Joe,

I know it is overwhelming right now and you are feeling down. You and your wife were excited to get a dog and when you chose to get two you really thought that would be a good thing. We all know that you care about these pups or you wouldn't be here looking for advice. 

The reason people are being frank with you is because they have a lot of experience and they care about you AND about what is best for these dogs. 

No one is saying it can't be done but the odds are not good. Most that take on 2 pups or littermates have tons of time and experience. And that being said most (not generalizing here) would not do it at all. 

I look at it from another perspective. I am very involved in rescue. A common thing is people get 2 puppies because "oh they will have company" or "someone to play with" or "so they won't be lonely" etc etc. AS carmen said, the pup does not need a pet. 

Later down the line one or both of the dogs becomes too much to handle, or they start trying to kill each other (especially in littermates) and one of the dogs has to go. The bad thing is that often these dogs lack the social skills/training etc to be successfully re-homed. Not only do they have all these problems but then they are taken from their bonded partner and that ups the ante on whatever the behavior issues are. 

I bring fosters in from this type of scenario that have aggression issues, are lacking social skills, develop OCD, are more prone to bolt, are not always housebroken, have some or NO training. I make it a project and do my best to make them adoptable but often these dogs can only go to someone with experience. That takes a lot of time. 

There isn't always someone like me, or a rescue group that is willing to put in all that extra work. Not that you would dump the dog but if you gave the dog away later down the line and that person didn't know what they are doing....often times the next stop is stray or shelter or worse. 

If you return a dog now you can learn about the GSD breed, train the dog well, raise the dog together as a family and then 18 months to 2 years down the line get another dog if that is something you both really want to do. 

Take a deep breath. Have a really good heart to heart with the MRS. Explain all that you are hearing from us. Make the best decision for your family AND what is best for the dogs as well. 

We will support your decision and help along the way.


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## DaisyDaws (Feb 28, 2015)

Why is your wife so opposed to the crate? We have found it to be a lifesaver! Our pup is almost 7 months, he loves his crate and now sleeps in there with the door open, it's his place. We never used it for punishment and he is rarely left alone but there were times that I just needed a break from the landsharking puppy. There are times when a puppy needs to be put down for a nap, they get over stimulated and the crate is a great quiet place for relaxation. I can't even imagine having 2! Try to convince your wife that the crate is truly the smartest, most humane tool to help raise a puppy. Good luck, it seems like you really want to do the right thing.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Joe, here is a thought to pose to your wife:

Others on here have said that eventually, at maturity, there may be fighting between litter-mates.

Have you or your wife ever been in the middle of an adult large dog fight? I've been in two and it's not pretty! Not to mention the possible injury to the family member who tries to break it up! A friend lost the use of her hand from shredded tendons!

Many years ago our neighbor's white German Shepherd attacked our mixed breed and was literally tearing out her stomach!

Maybe a 30 second viewing of a dog fight on YouTube (but I don't know if they even allow that type of horrific thing on there) could bring her around. I've only seen one dog ring fight (I now go in another room if it's on tv) and the dog ripped out the throat of the other dog. SICKENING & HORRIFYING!!! 

Sometimes, sadly, "shock value" works.

Moms


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

My first hand report on the long term effects of litter mates staying together in a backyard.

The situation: An overwhelmed novice breeder who couldn't sell and had three adults, two 9 mths old, and three 4 mths old GSDs. He worked all day and the dogs were left by themselves in the yard. The dogs had interaction with humans, had been petted and were affectionate, but received no individual attention, no foundation training, and the pups had never been removed from the pack to learn that they can cope on their own. The breeder was a good man and wanted to do right for his dogs, he never breed again, and surrendered all but one of his dogs to breed rescue to make sure they found good homes.

In their backyard, the only entertainment had been each other, squirrels, and chasing leaves. That created a big problem.

I had two of these 17 week old puppies for one week before one could move on to another foster home. They had never had to deal with being alone and screamed non stop. They played with each other but play always deteriorated into squabbling. When they were separated, neither showed any signs of missing the other. 

Long term effect: 
I kept one puppy. It was extremely difficult and frustrating even for a very experienced trainer to train her as no reward in training could top the sight of another dog or a squirrel. While the pup was very affectionate and quickly took to play with people, once outside, the whole attention was on scanning the environment for squirrels and dogs. Nothing could top that, no toy, no choice foods, no play. 
I can not overemphasize the resulting challenges of training her outside under distraction. 

She had also had no exposure to other dogs but her pack of black GSDs. While lack of exposure to physical environments can be caught up with to a certain extent after 12 weeks, this is not the case for lack of social experience. It is crucial that a puppy gets exposed to different kinds of dogs and learns how to read them. Not random dogs at a dog park, but dogs known to you for being sound with puppies, and whom the puppy can see repeatedly. 

My younsta also had never been in a street before and she shut down, kept trotting but wasn't there mentally. Being a sound and stable dog from her genetic make up, I could overcome this within just weeks, but it took daily thoughtful training, to expose her just in the amount that she could handle, and increasing that amount in careful increments. She can walk underneath a bridge with a train roaring above us now, and just look at me with a question mark. Good, strong GSD nerves.

The two most important things in raising a GSD puppy, esp. but not only during the first 12 weeks: 
1) Teaching the puppy impulse control and frustration tolerance in a pleasant way. 
2) Making yourself the prime source of reward b/c you need to have rewards in your tool box to train the dog. 

It may be possible to raise litter mates well but it requires much time spent engaging with each puppy alone, without the other pup around, so you become the source of all things fun and good, not only at belly rub and feeding time. I don't see how it can be done when everyone in the family is gone all day for work. 

And: Can you perhaps replace the word 'den' for 'crate' for your wife? Most dogs love their dens and go in there voluntarily. Puppies cry at first, and that is part of learning to cope on your own. It's like first day at school for a kid. Watch some online videos of positive crate training for puppies, it need not be traumatic at all. And, as others said, being crate trained is a life skill for a dog to have. 

Don't beat yourself, Joe. If the situation where the pups came from is not one you want to return one to, please reach out to GSD breed rescue in your area. Wishing you the best.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

I don't understand why your wife isn't doing some of this research. You said she loves dogs but she adopted two impulsively? hmmm.

Others have said and it is really true: GSDs are not something to buy impulsively. In my mind it is much worse than most other dogs, because a GSD is so loyal and velcro-like that it really hurts them when they closely bond with someone and then are separated. It's not easy for them to move on from that. So _PLEASE_, take one of them back!!

I've done a _LOT_ of research on raising two at once, and I definitely won't be doing it until I've had lots of experience, and time to give them. Furthermore I would never do two of the same sex/littermates. ever.

Your wife may have experience with dogs but she doesn't know how GSDs are. 

Also the crate thing- She sounds very misinformed about it. Crates to a dog (if you train them correctly) are dens to them. They love it! My GSD (wolf) has the choice of anywhere he wants to sleep in the room at night (this started out because as a little puppy I put him on my bed, so that when he had to pee he would jump off and wake me up) Anyway, he now will sleep on the floor for a bit, then walk into his cage and spend the majority of the night in there. He is relaxed, it is his little area. 

Also when I go to work I put him in there (Im working up to letting him free roam but that will be a little while) and he doesn't make a peep! He did for the first 3 days or so but now - not a single bark. It is their DEN. they love it!! Don't rob your puppy of this joy!

Lastly, a GSD is not a full time out door dog. Earlier you mentioned you liked to just keep them outside but will be taking them inside at winter? This is good but you gotta understand that GSDs like to be with their family. they're called velcro dogs for a reason. They want to be _with_ you!

if that doesn't sound like something you can handle, and bare in mind they will probably shed ( A LOT despite brushing everyday, you will still get hair everywhere) then it may not be the best dog choice for you. If you want two for example, there are some breeds of dogs that would be MUCH easier to do that with.


In conclusion. Don't feel bad about what's happened. don't sit around and remorse...just take one of the dogs back. It's ok. it's so much better to return one now than what will happen if you don't and you leave the situation how you described it. PLEASE take one back, and "Den train" the other one!! also put some pics of them up so we can see them! WE LOVE PUPPY PICS!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've owned a couple of GSDs and a couple of other breeds and I have trained and titled my dogs in many areas so I would not consider myself a novice. I've raised several puppies (in different ways) and have been paid to raise puppies for other people, as well as have fostered mixed breed puppies/young dogs for a rescue. I once attempted to keep to male GSD littermates and this lasted two days, lol. It was not 1+1=2, more like 1+1=5 for the amount of work. I thought they could be playmates, keep each other occupied, and also console each other at night. WRONG! I had two puppies getting into everything and running opposite directions. At night they had some sort of howling contest, or one would finally settle and the other would start howling and wake him up. I never intended to keep both. I wanted to keep them 2 months so I had time to may my final "pick" (this was a litter I co-bred and was sent two males to choose from), but I was utterly overwhelmed within 24 hours and I wasn't even working at the time (off on Christmas holiday). Luckily a friend/forum member here was interested in taking on the second pup and ended up buying him. Both males are great dogs, both are heavily involved in training and already have multiple titles shy of two years old.

Also the issue with keeping males is that they can be prone to same-sex aggression, especially another male of the same age. I used to have two males that were fine until one day...they were no longer fine. It happened literally overnight, just before the younger male turned 2 which is often when they stop being puppies that love other dogs and people and start getting more aloof and intolerant of having other male dogs around. It may go well and it may not. It may go well for 2 years and then one day they start fighting and that is it. My bigger concern is that your wife is already unwilling to crate or separate in any appropriate fashion, so what is her plan if these dogs do *not* get along? How will they be managed and safely separated?

GSDs need a LOT of work up front. My experience has been that you get what you put in, and I don't just mean putting in money/buying/building dog houses and such. They need a lot of time and effort into training, manners, boundaries, rules, and most importantly building a relationship with the owner so that there is loyalty and trust. I have nothing against using good quality dog houses outdoors or nice kennel runs and such and I won't force anyone to use a crate, but you DO have to have a plan of how these dogs are going to be managed. How is their freedom structured? How do the earn more freedom? How are they doing this independently of each other? Seven weeks is much to young to be out in the yard or dog house. I know people who are very adamant about their own dogs being outdoor/kennel dogs but even these people keep them inside and do crate training, manners, and basic obedience with the puppies until they are 5-6 months old and then are introduced to their kennel.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just to be blunt...

I think you are insane for even considering keeping two puppies.

I have a 2 yr old male, was offered co-ownership on a show line female for breeding rights. 

No way No how. I have no time. I work. My house is a disaster. I train my dog. I have zero time for anything thing else. Even my other dog does not get hte attention she deserves and I'm not training her.

You are insane. Or you soon will be.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

I forgot to mention one more thing about the outside!! or just in general frankly. They need CONSTANT supervision for the next couple months. It will amaze you how much they will try to eat any, and everything. Outside they will eat rocks and dirt all day if left to themselves. 

That's another crate advantage btw. if you can't be watching them at the moment, put them in the crate to relax. or else they will eat stuff and tare up stuff.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think people believe it is easier to just get two, and let them entertain themselves.
It's very easy to take the two adorable fur balls home. They're so cute! 

The thing is, you are not buying a puppy, you are buying a dog. Because that puppy in a few months is going to become an adult dog. And that adult dog is going to be a direct product of his experiences, and how much training he has had.

To be honest, I got my puppy with the idea that I would be adding a female in a couple of years. Fast forward three years later, and I wouldn't dream of getting a second dog, not even after my first one is mature and trained. He is a lot of work, and it costs me a fortune to feed him because he has food sensitivities. 
So, I will probably get another dog when this one is no longer with me. But not sooner.

Hopefully, Joe will come back and let us know what is going on with him and the dogs.


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

If you are in the upstate NY area, this is an outstanding organization, also very puppy experienced, and highly regarded. Jean KBBBBMan, moderator of the rescue forum here, is one of the volunteers. 
Big Dogs Big Hearts Rescue Upstate New York

It's hard b/c small pups trigger all our parental instincts but you will find that you can let go after just a few days of being with the pup. Right now it's heart warming cuteness but not yet a bond. Puppies attach quickly, thus no problem for a puppy to move on. 

Breeders and puppy fosters have to part with puppies, and so can others, though there is always one difficult moment. But when you see puppy is in good hands and happy, it is a good moment and something good to come home from.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

You've already heard a lot of thoughts on the two puppies from the same litter thing, so I have nothing to add to that. Ultimately it's up to you and your wife if you decide to put everything you've got into trying to make the situation work, but knowing that you'll have to keep a close eye on things and be ready to make the best decision for you AND the dogs if serious problems arise.

As far as your wife not wanting to crate the puppies - does she realize that dogs are naturally "den" animals? That's what the crate basically is; you put a puppy in there to keep him safe when you can't keep a close eye on him, but it also turns into his haven. You never crate a dog as punishment, they should have positive associations with it only. Adult GSDs who don't necessarily appreciate having strangers (strange to them at least) over at the house can retreat to their crate for relief from the social pressure of Mom and Dad not letting them "protect" from the intruders  

I'm a new dog owner myself so you and your wife probably have more overall experience than I do, but these were the things people told me when I first got our puppy and asked about crate training. A dog will often go into the crate themselves for a rest or a break, and you can cover it with a blanket to make it an even more secure-feeling sanctuary for them.

Good luck!


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

RunShepherdRun said:


> If you are in the upstate NY area, this is an outstanding organization, also very puppy experienced, and highly regarded. Jean KBBBBMan, moderator of the rescue forum here, is one of the volunteers.
> Big Dogs Big Hearts Rescue Upstate New York


If that's the route they decide on, I volunteer for the German Shepherd Rescue of Central New York, and I have a couple in their 40's with no kids and no other pets waiting for a male dog under the age of 1 year to become available  Although now that I think about it, they actually don't live in New York State themselves, but I assume they must be willing to travel to get him when the right dog becomes available, if they decided to put in an application here.


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## HwyStarJoe (Aug 9, 2015)

I'm BACK!
And I'm still alive...with two GSD that are still in one piece.


I wanted to wait a few weeks before updating y'all on Klaus and Ruger.
Yes, we're keeping them both, and yes they now have crates. It took a nod from our new vet to convince the wife.

Let me tell you, they're two totally different pups. Interesting to say the least. We keep forgetting they're only 11 weeks old too. They've been socialized constantly with many, many people and different dogs. They can be unsure when around a more mature or larger dog, which is fine...we let them go hide if they can't take it. But they eventually warm up and everything is fine.

Klaus is the more mellow guy, and a bit smaller than Ruger, but he's definitely got the 'watch dog' mentality. He was the first to bark, and the first to show that defensive trait by alerting when he heard another dog bark in the distance. If he hears something\someone he can't see or recognize, he'll let them know he 'knows'. I'm happy with that. He's not the least bit aggressive...just very alert. He's a whiner too...
a mamas boy to some extent. He'll let you pick him up and hold him for a minute without getting squirrly. He's not afraid of noise like cars driving by on our busy street or a saw or things like that. Or my blender mixing up a slushy Cruzan rum drink.

He's done great with house training\potty. The funniest thing was when I brought the crates home... they make a lot of noise clanging around as I unfolded them. Before I even had the sides together, Klaus wandered over and walked right thru it.  Didn't phase him at all. Ruger ran at the first noise they made.

As for Ruger... he's a handful. He's his own dog. Stubborn. Not so good with potty training. Chicken around noises. They'll both let us know when it's time to go out, but Ruger will often sneak off (right in front of you!) and do his thing. I think he's more concerned with missing the action, so he'll sneak off, smell up the house, and come back to playing. He can't be left out of the action...or plain old loving. He's gotta have his nose in everything Klaus does.
It's strange that he doesn't like unfamiliar or loud sounds, yet he's great on the leash walking along our street with the cars going by. He'll stop and look, but doesn't freak out. I could probably coax him into walking pretty far. Klaus just ignores the cars but doesn't really explore much. He's ready to go back home. Ruger tends to act more like a dog while walking...sniffing, exploring, etc. Klaus on the other hand HATES walks. I don't think he gets it yet. When we get to the corner and start to turn around, he grabs the leash and RUNS back to the house. 
Ruger does the same. It's interesting how they both know exactly which yard\house is ours and they'll bee-line for it no matter which direction we walked.

They haven't destroyed our new leather furniture yet...or anything else for that matter. Other than a stack of magazines I left under an end table. Ruger was the first to discover the garbage can in the kitchen. He was also the first to scale the gates...at 7 weeks old. We're working on a new plan for the garbage.
Ruger doesn't like the crate much, but he tolerates it and eventually settles. They don't use them on their own as little safe havens yet, but Klaus will wander in and out sometimes. Ruger ignores them.

They're constantly rough-housing with each other. Klaus seems to be the instigator, and Ruger will let him know he's not playing. Or it can be the other way around. Ruger knows he's slightly bigger so he'll plow Klaus under.
And we've already witnessed a serious aggression on their part. A couple weeks ago in the kitchen, right in front of us. We're not sure why, but they we're playing with each other and Ruger took Klaus down, clamped into him between the shoulders and wouldn't let go. I had to pry his jaws apart to get him off, and Klaus bled a little.
Since then we've kept an even closer watch on them and don't hesitate to separate them if need be. They're smart enough to know when we mean business, and they're smart enough to know when they're stepping out of bounds. We're not dumb and realize what they're doing as dogs, but neither is going away so it is what it is.

They don't like the heat. It's been brutal hot here lately, and even the kiddy pool isn't enough for them. Klaus jumped right in, but Ruger isn't a water lover. They'd rather be in the house when it's this hot out. But the wife keeps the house so cold that they'll lay in front of the refrigerator to keep warm. 

Training (individual) starts in a couple weeks. Hopefully we'll learn a lot. I know they will... they're smarter than us.


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

HwyStarJoe said:


> Hi again all,
> 
> 
> Can I build them each a doghouse and leave them outdoors now, before Winter comes that is. The wife will make them stay indoors in the Winter which is fine with me, but they're going to be at that "terrible age" in a few months. I don't know how we'll control them from destroying the house.
> ...


just food for thought.. they are young and what not but my dad had built our St. Bernard (big difference and breed yes but like I said food for thought) a fenced in dog house and he loved it. I do believe it was insulated but it was large enough for him to move around lay down in and be comfortable.. I even hung out in there with him as a kid. The temperature in the Cold winter of upstate NY was about 15 degrees and the dog house would be at a stead 65.. when the dog was in it it got to almost 90 degrees because it was so well insulated and the dogs heat put off.. So keep in mind your area and the size of your dogs!


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## HwyStarJoe (Aug 9, 2015)

Yeah... I don't know why I said they'd be outside in the Winter. The wife is way to kind to do that. The crates will be gone as soon as they're trained and mature enough to be left inside without costing us a new house.
I'm still toying with how to create separate areas for them in the yard. It has to be convenient for us and them, and not wreck the flow of the yard. Or effect the resale value.

One step at a time. I fully expect to suffer thru destroyed belongings. I don't have a choice now. 
As long as we can keep them from hurting each other, the rest is gravy really.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, good luck when they turn about a year and a half


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

HwyStarJoe said:


> The crates will be gone as soon as they're trained and mature enough to be left inside without costing us a new house.


Good to hear you've got crates now. I'd suggest crating them whenever you're not around until they're at least 1 - 1.5 years old.

This is a twitter account I used to maintain when my dog was younger: https://twitter.com/furryoffender . Scroll through the photos to see what happens when you don't crate your GSD (spoiler: hope you know how to do drywall). With two of them in the picture, I'd imagine the potential devastation to be tenfold.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

See a couple of red flags: allowing pup to flee in a difficult situation, allowing pup to run home while he holds the leash and a smiley face from you, you being ok with fear barking. If you need more info on this let us know.
Just in case: Raising Two Puppies at Once | mysmartpuppy.com


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> See a couple of red flags: allowing pup to flee in a difficult situation, allowing pup to run home while he holds the leash and a smiley face from you, you being ok with fear barking. If you need more info on this let us know.
> Just in case: Raising Two Puppies at Once | mysmartpuppy.com


Not to mention that one is weak and nervy and the strong one knows it.

Dogs are wired to get rid of weaker ones in the pack. There has already been blood drawn. 

I don't understand why the weaker one is not entitled to have a home where he is the only one, loved, relaxed, and not bullied by his older sibling. Puppy attacks will turn into big dog attacks, and it won't be pretty.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> Not to mention that one is weak and nervy and the strong one knows it.
> 
> Dogs are wired to get rid of weaker ones in the pack. There has already been blood drawn.
> 
> I don't understand why the weaker one is not entitled to have a home where he is the only one, loved, relaxed, and not bullied by his older sibling. Puppy attacks will turn into big dog attacks, and it won't be pretty.


HwyStarJoe...read this post over and over until its memorized! Close to their second birthday, maybe before, there will be changes, they will detest each other, then you will believe this is what should have been done way back then! Please please rehome one before its too late....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> Well, good luck when they turn about a year and a half


Aww I see that point got mentioned! I call it the old "my dog changed, thing???" I'm a first time member of that club myself!

First stitches ever... 8 months of zero problems (that I could see) and then I found myself with 116 lbs of WL OS GSD with high-rank drive (look that one up) and human aggression on my hands!!

Good times, Good times....

In an effort to add value to this thread...7 to 10 months from now, the OP my find this info useful??:
Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt


I'll look for the OP in the aggression threads in a half a year or so...good luck!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

great ...........(sarcasm) "They're constantly rough-housing with each other. Klaus seems to be the instigator, and Ruger will let him know he's not playing. Or it can be the other way around. Ruger knows he's slightly bigger so he'll plow Klaus under.
And we've already witnessed a serious aggression on their part. A couple weeks ago in the kitchen, right in front of us. We're not sure why, but they we're playing with each other and Ruger took Klaus down, clamped into him between the shoulders and wouldn't let go. I had to pry his jaws apart to get him off, and Klaus bled a little."

law of the jungle.


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

I just read through ALL of this!!! nOw I want an Update!!!!!!!


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## Laura66 (May 1, 2016)

Casto said:


> I just read through ALL of this!!! nOw I want an Update!!!!!!!



LOL, me too!


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

I was thinking about adding a pup to the family when the one I have now is about 1.5 year old. Is this a good idea? and if I do, how do I raise the second pup? by itself or with my first dog?


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## Ruger Monster (Jan 29, 2015)

I remember reading this last year - I'm intrigued as well as to how it's been going.


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## InControlK9 (Sep 23, 2013)

I haven't read all the replies but from the first few replies I dont think its right to tell this guy to return one of his pups. If they want 2 litter mates then that's what they want... he is simply asking for advice on raising them together... I wouldn't say my advice would be to return one of the pups and you're in for a disaster etc etc. it's not impossible it can be done


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## InControlK9 (Sep 23, 2013)

just now realizing this is old lol.. update anyone?


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