# What kind of temperament can you expect from a litter bred by a breeder who believes



## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

sorry, If this question doesn't belong to here, feel free to move it 

What kind of temperament ( don't know if this would be the right word) can you expect from a litter bred by a breeder who believes that a GSD puppy shouldn't be petted by strangers but only by family members and should be put in its crate or away if you're having any visitors? 

IMO this breeder knows nothing or a little when it comes to socialization, and how important it is.. So this is where I wonder what kind of temperament or issues can you expect from a puppy bred by this kind of breeder even when you socialize and socialize the puppy?:thinking:


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

This breeder also believes that when the puppy is 4MO, someone should wear a hood outside the house and encourage the barking from this puppy..


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I want a dog who is a part of my life, both inside the home and out.

I do not want a dog that is my burglar alarm.

If you get the puppy young from the breeder (8 weeks?) and YOU raise and socialize it, it may very well grow up to be a perfectly normal and wonderful pet.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Run away as fast as you can!!!! This person has no business breeding dogs.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I want a dog who is a part of my life, both inside the home and out.
> 
> I do not want a dog that is my burglar alarm.
> 
> If you get the puppy young from the breeder (8 weeks?) and YOU raise and socialize it, it may very well grow up to be a perfectly normal and wonderful pet.


I think that's what the breeder consider these dogs


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

this breeder is an idiot.... JMHO

Temperament is genetics. 100% 

You can screw it up or it can just override crappy raising - and if it NEEDS socializing - it is not 110% solid stable temperament to begin with...could be 95% stable, and conditioning (socializing) will make the dog alot more confident...but if it is confident and open to begin with you should be ok even if the idiot breeder did not socialize it...

Lee


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

vat said:


> Run away as fast as you can!!!! This person _has no business breeding dogs_.


IKR? this breeder has been breeding for 23 years and the thing is she is well known


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Wouldn't buy a pup from them, thats for sure.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Doesn't Leerburg advocate this?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So who does this breeder sell to? Not people who actually work their dogs in agility, SAR, obedience or SchH I take it?
Too bad they are putting pups out there that ruin the reputation of the breed as a working dog.
Today on the "Today" show, the AKC top dogs were on. When #2 GSD puppy came out the host said they give the impression of "get away from you(the owner)" when you see them....this was after the person doing the presentation stated all the wonderful facts of this breed
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41249142/ns/today-today_pets_and_animals/


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Doesn't Leerburg advocate this?


Interesting, I will check in a while



onyx'girl said:


> So who does this breeder sell to? Not people who actually work their dogs in agility, SAR, obedience or SchH I take it?
> Too bad they are putting pups out there that ruin the reputation of the breed as a working dog.
> Today on the "Today" show, the AKC top dogs were on. When #2 GSD puppy came out someone made a comment of crossing the street when you see them coming....this was after the person doing the presentation stated all the wonderful facts of this breed.


I don't know about people who works in agility and such all I know is that people that want a companion dog and the pd buy from this breeder.. Though I'm from venezuela things are different in here BUT STILL..


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

And Im pretty sure that If I hadn't found this forum I'd just ignore the breeder's belief without really knowing the importance of breeding/bloodline/socialization,etc...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So for the most part in Venezuela they are sold for guard dogs?


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> So for the most part in Venezuela they are sold for guard dogs?


mmm I don't really know.. there aren't many known breeders that I know in venezuela, mostly BYB, and those ads "Selling GSD'S with Pedigree!" But yea I'd say that this breeder sells "guard dogs"..


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

Oh yes..I remember the first time going for a walk with Helios when he was a puppy, my neighbor saw me walking with him, she had implied that He wouldn't be a good "guard" dog If I kept walking him..

And the thing is breeds such as Rottis,GSDs,etc are normally kept in the backyard and that's it so that they'll "protect" the house if someone breaks in..

I can expect that kind of belief from someone who knows nothing about dogs but really? from a breeder?


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## frydaddy (Oct 28, 2009)

If you want a companion dog, probably not the best choice and if you raise it from a pup it will probably turn out very well but there is a good chance that it will have a quirk or two.

We got Tuttle from a breeder whose main customers were police, rescue and similar. With proper training he would have made an excellent rescue dog, it was amazing what he could do (no training) using his nose. For 10 years his quirk was wheels and especially motorcycle wheels. We tried many correction techniques(if thats the right term) to try to get him to stop. If I was the one riding it took 4-5 times of getting off/on the bike before he would keep his distance and then he would still come at the bike and zig-zag in front of the bike kicking rocks up. With the wifes bike, if he wasn't restrained, he would latch onto the front wheel and get flipped and hit by the frame/footpeg and still get up and try again.

The prospective owner just needs to be aware of the line that the dog is coming from and realize that that line may not be what they want from their dog. Nothing wrong with breeding for guard/police, etc or breeding for companion/pet.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

You could achieve the same effect by purchasing one of those remote operated barking devices designed to frighten burglars, and the best part is, it doesn't eat, poop, or need to go for walks!

But if you want an animal, and not a robotic machine, find another breeder.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

I would say that if you decide to acquire a puppy from this breeder that you ignore her advise. Get the puppy into a basic obedience class and socialize, socialize, socialize, and then socialize. You will be able to develop a very nice companion dog on your own. Good luck! 

As for the gal on the Today show, I kind of know where she was coming from. WE, along with many other folks know the wonders of our breed, there is no disputing that. But for those that don't know about the GSD, I have to tell you that when our boys were growing up, they were always shadowed by our girls, Missy & Mercedes and nobody messed with our kids and their friends. I truly believe that to the uninformed the GSD can be intimidating; that's not always a bad thing.:gsdhead:
Is it spring yet?!:brrrwinter:


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

You can socialize all you want, but if the dogs have this trait in their lines then your pup may behave in a similar manner no matter how much you socialize. I would be wary of this breeder, because you don't know how much of the dogs behavior is inherent vs how much of it is trained (or rather, unsocialized)


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Only consider breeders whose dogs excel at what's important to you. IF you're seeking a companion, then whatever else the dogs might be capable of, they s/b proven to be superb companions. Stable, healthy, sound GSDs with the temperament needed in companion dogs can be found in WL, SL or companion lines. Personally, I'd never consider a breeder whose dogs hadn't succeeded as companion dogs regardless of their other accomplishments.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

"Temperament is genetics. 100% "

Not according to almost 100% of behaviorists and trainers - if this were the case then we would not have to socialize the puppies, would we?

Temperament is a COMBINATION of genes and environment!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Emoore said:


> Doesn't Leerburg advocate this?



Sort of? Leerburg does not promote strangers petting and interacting with the dog, however, they do advocate heavy exposure to those people and to different environments. 

I remember watching Ed Frawley on some video walking a puppy around a college campus, not letting anyone pet the pup, but letting people come over to talk and letting the pup see the people. 

It's not total nonsense. There are a LOT of people out there that have no idea how to properly greet a dog and can be pretty overwhelming to a pip. Usually by the time you stop them, they've already mauled your puppy. I definitely believe some bad experiences are created in the name of socialization.

But like others have said, a lot of temperament is genetic. You see it in Shelters. How many dogs have been through **** living in backyard with no socialization and still come out friendly? Plenty. And some come out as aggressive nervous wrecks. The nervous wrecks probably would never have been poster childs for awesome temperament.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Comments I've seen from Frawley were definitely geared towards raising the ultimate SchH dog or PPD, & not towards safe, non-threatening experiences for the pup. I'm not covinced his advice to pup owners is primarily concerned with the pup's comfort levels. An owner of Frawley's pup(s) also claimed that he'd never seen the GSD that was naturally good with children. Whatever else Frawley's GSD might be, & I truly have no idea how good/bad they are, he's not a breeder I'd seek for a companion GSD.

A dog with sound genetics, & a solid, stable temperament, will rise above bad experiences. Life is frankly fraught with experiences that suck. A sound dog rolls with the punches & comes up grinning. Neighbors fighting, sibs bickering,toddlers doing a nuclear melt down, teen aged heart break, tragedy, sorrow, celebration. It's all part & parcel of life. To thrive & succeed, our dogs must be able to deal with negative experiences appropriately. Yes, they will affect them, deeply at times, but they shouldn't destroy them


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ruby Tuesday, I agree wholeheartedly. Though environment plays a part in end result of temperament, a sound dog will make the adjustments to the environment and will not be destroyed. Many of the dogs today that are bred are not sound genetically and socialization becomes a critical part of the end result. I don't go out of the way to socialize my pups because I don't deal with lines that have this as a genetic weakness. But some 80% of the German Shepherds bred today do need that extensive socialization for the dog to be comfortable in new experiences...just another area of the breed that has diminished over the years. Thirty years ago you didn't have to have a PH,D in socialization to bring a pup up AND you didn't see no where near the shyness and sensitivity you see today.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

frydaddy;2017094[I said:


> ]If you want a companion dog, probably not the best choice [/I]and if you raise it from a pup it will probably turn out very well but there is a good chance that it will have a quirk or two.
> 
> We got Tuttle from a breeder whose main customers were police, rescue and similar. With proper training he would have made an excellent rescue dog, it was amazing what he could do (no training) using his nose. For 10 years his quirk was wheels and especially motorcycle wheels. We tried many correction techniques(if thats the right term) to try to get him to stop. If I was the one riding it took 4-5 times of getting off/on the bike before he would keep his distance and then he would still come at the bike and zig-zag in front of the bike kicking rocks up. With the wifes bike, if he wasn't restrained, he would latch onto the front wheel and get flipped and hit by the frame/footpeg and still get up and try again.



This breeder claims that these dogs also fulfill every necessary condition that makes a good guard dog and a companion dog.. But yes, I get your point



EJQ said:


> I would say that if you decide to acquire a puppy from this breeder that you ignore her advise. Get the puppy into a basic obedience class and socialize, socialize, socialize, and then socialize. You will be able to develop a very nice companion dog on your own. Good luck!
> 
> 
> As for the gal on the Today show, I kind of know where she was coming from. WE, along with many other folks know the wonders of our breed, there is no disputing that. But for those that don't know about the GSD, I have to tell you that when our boys were growing up, they were always shadowed by our girls, Missy & Mercedes and nobody messed with our kids and their friends. I truly believe that to the uninformed the GSD can be intimidating; that's not always a bad thing.:gsdhead:
> Is it spring yet?!:brrrwinter:


The thing is that I don't plan on getting a puppy from this breeder because I already have one puppy from this breeder.. And I pretty much Ignored her advice but still I got curious and made this thread. Actually my mom was the one who spoke to her,etc,etc and when she told me what the breeder said I could careless because I wanted the puppy to be a Companion dog..

Though frydaddy said:


> *The prospective owner just needs to be aware of the line that the dog is coming from* and realize that that line may not be what they want from their dog. Nothing wrong with breeding for guard/police, etc or breeding for companion/pet.


And this is true, I can tell that My mom isn't used to this "line"of gsd bred by this breeder because she always tells me that she owned 4 gsds and none of them were like Helios LOL or perhaps they were just low-energy..




RubyTuesday said:


> Only consider breeders whose dogs excel at what's important to you. IF you're seeking a companion, then whatever else the dogs might be capable of, they s/b proven to be superb companions. Stable, healthy, sound GSDs with the temperament needed in companion dogs can be found in WL, SL or companion lines. Personally, I'd never consider a breeder whose dogs hadn't succeeded as companion dogs regardless of their other accomplishments.


Well this breeder claims that the dogs fullfill every requeriment as a companion dog..



RubyTuesday said:


> Comments I've seen from Frawley were definitely geared towards raising the ultimate SchH dog or PPD, & not towards safe, non-threatening experiences for the pup. I'm not covinced his advice to pup owners is primarily concerned with the pup's comfort levels. *An owner of Frawley's pup(s) also claimed that he'd never seen the GSD that was naturally good with children. *Whatever else Frawley's GSD might be, & I truly have no idea how good/bad they are, he's not a breeder I'd seek for a companion GSD.
> 
> A dog with sound genetics, & a solid, stable temperament, will rise above bad experiences. Life is frankly fraught with experiences that suck. A sound dog rolls with the punches & comes up grinning. Neighbors fighting, sibs bickering,toddlers doing a nuclear melt down, teen aged heart break, tragedy, sorrow, celebration. It's all part & parcel of life. To thrive & succeed, our dogs must be able to deal with negative experiences appropriately. Yes, they will affect them, deeply at times, but they shouldn't destroy them


I didn't understand what you meant with "An owner of Frawley's pup(s) also claimed that he'd never seen the GSD that was naturally good with children" 

Helios, well I don't really know if I would say that he has a stable temperament, he can careless about noises,fireworks,etc etc But when he was younger (5MO) He didn't like someone taking the leash and taking him for a walk (he'd whine and whine and come back to me, I even asked about that here), he only accepted it once and because the stranger had a dog though (Now It has improved) .

Also since he was 8 weeks old he didn't like to be petted too, people would approach me and he never showed interest on them,he wasn't even friendly, he isn't a dog who loves to cuddle all he wants to do is play, he'll accept it though but I Know he doesn't like it..

Another thing is I can't open the door and let people in with him offleash I just don't trust him,he goes berzerk but once they're inside he settles down, actually im working on it, because I don't like that behavior .. And it's not with everyone, yesterday 3 people were outside of my garage and he went there to bark as soon as I got there he Obeyed the sit and stood calm while they were speaking to me but I KNOW He has some issues because sometimes he won't just obey, It's like He knows when the person is coming in and when the person is just outside in front of the door talking..


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

BTW I can see where his issues come from, going berzerk when someone is getting in the house? A 8 week old puppy that isn't friendly towards stranger and doesn't like to be petted?..


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Helios said:


> A 8 week old puppy that isn't friendly towards stranger and doesn't like to be petted?..


I got Madix at 10 weeks from a reputable breeder and he wasn't friendly towards strangers and didn't like to be petted. None of the other things you described happened but I just wanted to say that you can have a pup like that and "counter-condition" it so it's different as an adult. Not all dogs obviously - but in my case, it worked.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

FG167 said:


> I got Madix at 10 weeks from a reputable breeder and he wasn't friendly towards strangers and didn't like to be petted. None of the other things you described happened but I just wanted to say that you can have a pup like that and "counter-condition" it so it's different as an adult. Not all dogs obviously - but in my case, it worked.


I see  though pretty sure that his nonsense towards strangers getting in the house is thanks to me.. I never really invited much people when he was a puppy.. so perhaps If I had he wouldn't be acting like that.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I didn't understand what you meant with "An owner of Frawley's pup(s) also claimed that he'd never seen the GSD that was naturally good with children"


A poster who has had at least one pup from Frawley (whom he seemed happy with) stated in another thread he had never known a GSD that was naturally good with children & didn't consider it a breed characteristic. Since he's raised at least one Frawley pup, his statement clearly included that pup (or pups. I don't know if he's had more than one.) 

The statement surprised me. Mine took to kids like kittens to cream. Statements from other breeders (at various times), including WL breeders active in SchH, have indicated their WL GSD very quickly 'learn children' & are exceptional with them. A characteristic which seems to be increasingly neglected among some breeders, including some who are highly regarded, is judgment. IMO, no GS is worthy of breeding if it lacks this most basic of qualities. This is a general statement. As previously stated I have no direct experience with Frawley's dogs & have not formed any opinion of them.



> Well this breeder claims that the dogs fullfill every requeriment as a companion dog..


And perhaps they do but I won't believe it unless the breeder has proven s/he produces excellent companions. IF I wanted a service dog, search & rescue, pp or detection dog I'd choose from breeders with an established history of producing dogs that excel in those areas. I expect the same in anyone claiming their dogs can succeed as companions.

Given the multitude of pix in the Capt's book that showed GSDs interacting lovingly with children, people & small animals I believe he also considered this desirable in his 'ultimate working dog'.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> A poster who has had at least one pup from Frawley (whom he seemed happy with) stated in another thread he had never known a GSD that was naturally good with children & didn't consider it a breed characteristic. Since he's raised at least one Frawley pup, his statement clearly included that pup (or pups. I don't know if he's had more than one.)
> 
> The statement surprised me. Mine took to kids like kittens to cream. Statements from other breeders (at various times), including WL breeders active in SchH, have indicated their WL GSD very quickly 'learn children' & are exceptional with them. A characteristic which seems to be increasingly neglected among some breeders, including some who are highly regarded, is judgment. IMO, no GS is worthy of breeding if it lacks this most basic of qualities. This is a general statement. As previously stated I have no direct experience with Frawley's dogs & have not formed any opinion of them.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ruby for explaining! I didn't notice you had replied . And yes I understand your point.

EDIT: opps, Actually you wrote that not too long ago, I thot it was from yesterday or so.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> A poster who has had at least one pup from Frawley (whom he seemed happy with) stated in another thread he had never known a GSD that was naturally good with children & didn't consider it a breed characteristic. Since he's raised at least one Frawley pup, his statement clearly included that pup (or pups. I don't know if he's had more than one.)
> 
> The statement surprised me. Mine took to kids like kittens to cream. Statements from other breeders (at various times), including WL breeders active in SchH, have indicated their WL GSD very quickly 'learn children' & are exceptional with them. A characteristic which seems to be increasingly neglected among some breeders, including some who are highly regarded, is judgment._ *IMO, no GS is worthy of breeding if it lacks this most basic of qualities.*_ This is a general statement. As previously stated I have no direct experience with Frawley's dogs & have not formed any opinion of them.
> [
> ...


In fact when helios was younger, when kids wanted to pet him he would give me the look, he didn't like being petted by kids neither, he accepted it but I could see he didn't like it. Right now, I don't let people pet him actually, he just doesn't like it,and if he does it leads to roughplay.

*Agreed*


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Helios, my dog trainer, who is German and has trained/showed dogs including agility and schH for decades, told me he does not let any strangers pet his dog. 
He said it can cause nervousness, that his dogs are socialized by outings but not petted by others. He didn't tell me not to do this, he was just explaining what he does with his dogs.
It's so hard to figure out which behavioral theory to follow, but my dogs are my companions so I go with my gut feeling more than what I hear.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

krystyne73 said:


> Helios, my dog trainer, who is German and has trained/showed dogs, plus he agility and schH for decades told me he does not let any strangers pet his dog.
> He said it can cause nervousness, that his dogs are socialized by outings but not petted by others. He didn't tell me not to do this, he was just explaining what he does with his dogs.
> It's so hard to figure out which behavioral theory to follow, but my dogs are my companions so I go with my gut feeling more than what I hear.


I see..Nervousness? Don't really know what to say. 

Though I just don't allow it because I know he doesn't like it and when he does it leads to roughplay :smirk:. I've also wondered If It's lack of socialization or him being insecure or just being aloof.

Not too long ago a cousin came to my house, helios sniffed him and that's it, I told my cousin to ignore him, a few hours later I see helios heading to him, he was KISSING HIM i was really SURPRISED but then a few seconds later he wanted to roughplay :smirk:. Seems like he doesn't have manners :smirk:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have no problem with anyone petting any of my dogs. period! To me one of the greatest traits of this breed is one of discernment and incorruption. So if you're cool...then my dog is cool. I realize there are some dogs that aren't as approachable as others, but that is not something I strive for or breed for.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I have no problem with anyone petting any of my dogs. period! To me one of the greatest traits of this breed is one of discernment and incorruption. So if you're cool...then my dog is cool. I realize there are some dogs that aren't as approachable as others, _but that is not something I strive for or breed for._


I understand. Approachable as in how?, really depends on your definiton of approachable but _ isn't aloofness in the Breed standard?_


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Helios said:


> Not too long ago a cousin came to my house, helios sniffed him and that's it, I told my cousin to ignore him, a few hours later I see helios heading to him, he was KISSING HIM i was really SURPRISED but then a few seconds later he wanted to roughplay :smirk:. Seems like he doesn't have manners :smirk:


Manners are learned. Manners are a set of human rules we set, roughly will he have manners if he has no opportunities to interact with people.

I am not asking random people to pet my puppy either (with the exception of kids, I often encourage children to pet my dogs because I don't have any at hand) I agree GSDs are not Goldens and shouldn't be saying Hi to everybody. None of them, specially the male pup, cares for strangers petting them, but they do not reject human contact, not by avoidance nor aggression. I wouldn't say Akela likes it, but its more like the wind... like that background music you are barely aware of. Later when he befriends someone he does jump over him , put those big paws over his clean clothes and wants to kiss him all over, but well... he is five months old and has to learn better, in the meantime I keep a short leash to teach him.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

Catu said:


> *Manners are learned. Manners are a set of human rules we set, roughly will he have manners if he has no opportunities to interact with people.*
> 
> I am not asking random people to pet my puppy either (with the exception of kids, I often encourage children to pet my dogs because I don't have any at hand) I agree GSDs are not Goldens and shouldn't be saying Hi to everybody. None of them, specially the male pup, cares for strangers petting them, but they do not reject human contact, not by avoidance nor aggression. I wouldn't say Akela likes it, but its more like the wind... like that background music you are barely aware of. Later when he befriends someone he does jump over him , put those big paws over his clean clothes and wants to kiss him all over, but well... he is five months old and has to learn better, in the meantime I keep a short leash to teach him.


_Good Point_


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## MikeyMerciless (Jan 15, 2011)

This breeder sounds kinda weird... maybe too protective or paranoid or something.


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