# Shy dog very scared of small children: How to help her?



## doggerel (Aug 3, 2011)

We adopted Pyrrha (1 y.o.) about two months ago. _Back story:_ She is shy and undersocialized, as a result of her upbringing from a disreputable breeder. The breeder kept her and his other dogs outside in small kennels 24/7 and did not expose them to other people, other dogs, or the outside world.

She has many different shyness issues but seems to be making progress in various ways. 

The one issue that is very concerning to me right now is her obvious fear of infants, toddlers, and other small children. 

Last night, I walked her (on lead) to the mailbox at the end of our driveway. A family with three small kids were walking by on the sidewalk. The family's little girl (maybe 3 years old) started to approach, and (thankfully!) asked if she could pet my dog. Pyrrha started backing up a bit and looked very alert. I cautioned the girl and said, "Maybe not. She's still pretty shy." The girl made a few more steps toward us and Pyrrha growled at her. (The first time I've heard her growl at a child.) I moved Pyrrha away and apologized to the little girl and her family. They moved away quickly. I was very embarrassed and very concerned. 

She's successfully met other small kids (ages 5 and up) who greeted her slowly and didn't seem that frightened of them. It's the tiny ones that make her very anxious. 

*Has anyone dealt with this before? How do you help a dog get over this fear? *

I'm worried, because we have many friends with kids, and my husband and I will probably try to have kids in the next 4 years. I'd hate for this to be a serious issue for us in the future. This seems like such a difficult issue to work on, because I'm not willing to risk a baby getting snapped at or bit--and I don't know any parents who would be, either! Can this issue ever be resolved? 

ANY advice is very welcome!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

.


> *Pyrrha started backing up a bit and looked very alert.* I cautioned the girl and said, "Maybe not. She's still pretty shy." The girl made a few more steps toward us and Pyrrha growled at her. (The first time I've heard her growl at a child.) I moved Pyrrha away and apologized to the little girl and her family. They moved away quickly. I was very embarrassed and very concerned.


The bolded part was your first cue and your answer should have been "No, she's not comfortable around small kids yet".

The tough part is finding small kids to work on this with.

Your dog should have not had to resort to a growl. Her body language needs to be paid attention to and heeded. Backing up is the 1st "stay away from me, small confusing thing". The growl is a "PLEASE STAY AWAY", and if that had not been heeded, could result in a bite.

I think others will have suggestions to work with her, I have to run out, but I'm sure the "LAT" method will be brought up. Basically keep her comfortable and work up to meeting kids but if she's backing up and growling, you've pushed her beyond her comfort level (threshold) and you need to stop advancing towards a child before that occurs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am very glad she growled though - you always want to keep that - worse is to stop the growl and then have a dog that is going to do something without warning. But yes, you don't want to put her in a position where she feels she has to. 

A few other times I have posted that you should contact the foster for this dog to get their input - lots of times fosters have some keys to behavior that will help adopters. Have you done this? Or was there no foster for this dog?

shy-k9s : shy-k9s is a must to join for any fearful dog owner. 

You will be looking at a pattern of desensitization with your dog.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if i had a dog that didn't like children i would fine
a professional and get help for my dog. i'm not sure
is it worth trying to teach her how to behave around
children or just accept the fact she doesn't like children
and never let her get close to children. does this mean
wear a muzzle when in public?


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## doggerel (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks for your input.

msevette, I wasn't moving toward the child or pulling Pyrrha with me; the child had stopped moving and I didn't advance, but spoke to the parents briefly while Pyrrha stood by my side. She growled, probably, because the kid started to move (but not in her direction). 

Jean, her foster only had her for about a week before she was adopted, so she doesn't really have any background on how she was with children. (She was fostering 6 other dogs at the time, so she wasn't able to get out and expose her to different experiences.) All that we know is that she lived her whole life in an outside kennel and wasn't exposed to new people or new experiences, as she should have been.

I think we will reach out to a trainer in our area soon. I don't want this problem to escalate.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Oh! That makes it harder yes! 

I would definitely want to work with a trainer because this is not just going for a walk, or you wanting to have a child in a few years, but all the things that come with those children - visitors, birthday parties, and eventually many little friends running about that a pet dog has deal with - it's a lot! When looking for matches for adopters, I always think they don't just have 1 kid, they have 5 per that 1 kid, with their little friends added on. 

I would join this group and see if they have any recommendations for trainers: shy-k9s : shy-k9s

I am also going to PM Remo and point her to this thread - she may have some ideas for trainers, too. 

I would look for a trainer that worked with fearful dogs in the past. A big part of what you want to do is to project confidence, but that is difficult to do when you aren't sure what your dog will do! So training classes offer a chance to bond, but also a chance to see how your dog acts and reacts in a more of a laboratory setting that is safe for all. That will give you more confidence on outings. 

There is also a sticky post of how do you...and it's about protecting a fearful or aggressive dog from approaching people. I only know it's in the training section and not sure which one but it's there! 

I also like to set expectations low and go very slowly. Right now I am taking a "relationship based" training class - I usually go to a Volhard type class that is motivational and I think good, but I wanted to try something new. I think it would be a nice fit for a fearful dog. Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - Relationship based Approach to Training

I would say use this as your main thread and just keep updating instead of having different ones - it helps to give other people a picture of the variety of things you are doing and addressing and it will also show you the progress you have made over time - and time is not a big concept for dogs - so I try not to set date based goals.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Hope your 4th was great!

Here's another link, too, that may help--
Fearfuldogs.com


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## doggerel (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you both for your advice! It means a lot to me. 

I have joined the shyk9s Yahoo group and read it often, even though the formatting of it is pretty clunky and hard to read. (I wish it was set up more like a forum, like this site. The e-mail digests are confusing...) 

I have also been reading the Fearfuldogs.com blog, which has been great, and I just finished Patricia McConnell's booklet, _The Cautious Canine_. I've been looking online for an affordable copy of _Control Unleashed_ (even the used copies on Amazon are $26), but everyone has recommended it to me, so I think it's probably worth it...

Thanks to your encouragement, I reached out to a trainer this afternoon who is positive reinforcement-based and explained some of Pyrrha's issues. She says she has a shy dog herself and has worked with them frequently. She thinks Pyrrha may start off well in the basic obedience course, but if that is too much for her, she also recommends her nose work class, which she says has often been very confidence-building for shy dogs. 

I will return to this thread with any updates or revelations we have with her!


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## MissPoppy (Jul 5, 2012)

Hi!

It sounds like your pup had a rough start, but she's very lucky to have been adopted by someone who is interested in helping her!

We brought home my girl, Poppy at 8 weeks, and she had a tendancy toward shyness. At 10 weeks we put her into Petsmart puppy class, which while i'm not so sure of the actual training tips, did really help her develop as a dog. She learned to build relationships with the other puppies in her class because she saw them every week for 6 weeks (and now she sees different dogs in her intermediate class every week) and she built relationships with the other owners and petsmart employees who were there every week. Several of the owners had children which played with all the puppies before and after class. I can't tell you the social butterfly this helped her become.

As her confidence built, we started taking her to the local parks on off hours, when there was either no one or just one family there, and first we played with her on the slides and jungle gym and then gradually the children (who were more than happy to play with a puppy) would join in. We did this 3 or 4 nights a week until she was about 22 weeks old. 

Now at 6 months, she is very confident and loves meeting new people and dogs. I know this might be more difficult with an older dog not within the puppy socialization window, but with patience and baby steps you should be able to bring her out of her shell. Just remember, this isn't going to happen over night and it does take patience. Celebrate the small triumphs 

Best of luck!


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

First, thanks for choosing to adopt a dog. It sounds like you have found a trainer that you are going to work with and I hope you have tremendous success. 

If for some reason that does not work out, please let me know and I can find some resources for you. 

We will keep fingers, toes and eyes crossed that things work out for everyone!


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## doggerel (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks to you both! I appreciate your encouragement and advice. We'll start training classes on July 19. I'm hoping this will be the first important step on a long road to Pyrrha's confidence-building journey.


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## doggerel (Aug 3, 2011)

Oh, and I finally broke down and ordered _Control Unleashed _yesterday and Turid Rugaas' _Calming Signals_. Looking forward to reading them both and working through them. Thanks for these recommendations!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I took my GSD Bella to classes for 1 full year and then on and off for 2 years after that.  Honestly some did not help because we were both bored (or confused when they started rally stuff)! But the ones that did, really did. She never would do any of the agility equipment that was supposed to increase her confidence - she did not know that I guess! 

She is a combo of no socialization from birth to probably 7 months (and some seriously messed up other methods) and then not great genetic temperament. She's 10 now, still shy but can appear normal if no one knows/looks too closely. I have never had to expose her to children, but she never saw them as extra weird, which was helpful - she viewed everyone as an equal, scary threat.  But my first dog really wanted to get kids, and we were able to use a desensitization protocol that worked with him.


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## doggerel (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks, Jean. That's helpful to know! 

Pyrrha is always very interested in children and watches their every move very closely, but it seems to be an alertness that's on the border between curiosity and fear. I'm hoping that somewhere, deep down, she has some potential to be OK with kids in the future. I'm also hoping that we'll get some good advice from our trainer in the coming weeks!


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## doggerel (Aug 3, 2011)

Just an update, almost for my own reference--but I'm curious to hear if anyone else has experienced this:

We had two canine house-guests with us this weekend, and we took all the dogs on a hike to a mountain orchard. There were lots of people and kids up there. Our house-guest dogs were very calm with all of the little kids who came up to pet them, and to my surprise and delight, Pyrrha was equally calm when kids came to pet her. I was always very close to her and monitoring her behavior and watching the kids closely, too, but I think the presence of the other two calm dogs really helped her a lot. 

Has anyone experienced this before, with a dog with fearness issues? Since we don't have a second dog (yet!), how can we continue to encourage her in this way?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggerel said:


> Just an update, almost for my own reference--but I'm curious to hear if anyone else has experienced this:
> 
> We had two canine house-guests with us this weekend, and we took all the dogs on a hike to a mountain orchard. There were lots of people and kids up there. Our house-guest dogs were very calm with all of the little kids who came up to pet them, and to my surprise and delight, Pyrrha was equally calm when kids came to pet her. I was always very close to her and monitoring her behavior and watching the kids closely, too, *but I think the presence of the other two calm dogs really helped her a lot. *
> 
> Has anyone experienced this before, with a dog with fearness issues? Since we don't have a second dog (yet!), how can we continue to encourage her in this way?


I've been following this thread.
Just curious... What went on for the past 2 months? The thread started early July, and your update doesn't sound as if there was much progress. You seemed surprised by the dog's behavior.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

doggerel said:


> Just an update, almost for my own reference--but I'm curious to hear if anyone else has experienced this:
> 
> We had two canine house-guests with us this weekend, and we took all the dogs on a hike to a mountain orchard. There were lots of people and kids up there. Our house-guest dogs were very calm with all of the little kids who came up to pet them, and to my surprise and delight, Pyrrha was equally calm when kids came to pet her. I was always very close to her and monitoring her behavior and watching the kids closely, too, but I think the presence of the other two calm dogs really helped her a lot.
> 
> Has anyone experienced this before, with a dog with fearness issues? Since we don't have a second dog (yet!), how can we continue to encourage her in this way?


GREAT! the other dogs were obviously a great aid to your dog - showing her good behavior and that there was nothing to fear.


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

doggerel said:


> how can we continue to encourage her in this way?


Bring her favorite treats, give them to the kids to give to Pyrrha when they approach to pet her. Show the kids how to hold the treat on their open hand so they don't get nipped though, I've seen that happen even with kid loving dogs. 

I'm sure the other dogs behavior showed her that children are not a threat as mentioned too, so repeat that experience when you can.

She is a GSD right? Pretty soon her intelligence is going to start to amaze you... she will learn to love kids if you work at it a bit is my guess.


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