# Good dogs from non reputable breeders



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I think it's safe to assume that the majority of members here have at least 1 dog from a breeder that isn't exactly reputable.

Some of those people are happy with that dog and would buy from them again or recommend them to someone looking for a GSD.

I do not understand this. 

Why would you not want to support a breeder who is working to maintain the breed?

Makes me think those people do not really love GSDs but their version of them.

Sage is not from a reputable breeder. I love him. I wouldn't trade him for anything. He is a great pet. He does not meet the standard in temperament or conformation. He is a GSD, just one that should not have been. Doesn't make me love him any less. I love all of his quirks. Have you seen pictures of him? He's the happiest goofiest dog. I would never recommend the breeder where he came from. 

When someone joins with a dog from a breeder that isn't reputable I am only sad to see more dogs being bred irresponsibly. I do not think your dog is bad. No dog is bad. But in your time here on the boards if you don't learn what really is a GSD then I wonder what you are doing here.

I've seen so many posts from people where they say "oh I don't care about fancy pedigrees and titles" like people who do are snobs. Titles are not about bragging. Titles prove pedigree. If you don't care about well bred dogs then go adopt or rescue instead of contributing to the decline of this breed. If you don't want to spend the money then adopt or rescue.

There are breeders out there that know enough to not need to title all of their dogs (though I would prefer they did  ) Difference between them and other breeders not titling their dogs is that their dogs CAN earn titles. Their dogs HAVE earned titles. Their puppies ARE earning titles. Reputable breeders have "pet quality" dogs all the time. Those dogs can still do sports and do anything a GSD should be able to. Non reputable breeders only have pet quality and those dogs that can do anything a GSD should be able to are rare and do not represent their pedigree.

I do not understand why people with dogs from that type breeder take negative comments so personally. Love your dog faults and all. Know your dog is not representative of its breed. Big deal, you aren't going to breed him. Understand what makes him different from a well bred GSD. Decide if a well bred GSD is what you really want. Once you know the difference there is no excuse for supporting irresponsible breeders. 

Done ranting. Hope it made sense though it probably does not:crazy:


----------



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm not sure I really agree with the basis of this post, because there was just a thread that turned to this very topic and most everyone that replied that said they had a BYB dog stated that though they loved the dog and perhaps got lucky with health/temperament/etc, they wouldn't recommend that breeder because they've since learned more. I can't think of anyone (save for one person) who said they'd send someone else to that breeder, now that they've learned more.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Could you PM me the thread?

Haven't been on in a few days and am not caught up on new posts.

Sorry if this seems directed at someone due to recent thread. I have been trying to post this for a while but didn't have the time. Just read a thread about young pups being sent home early and made me remember to finally rant.


----------



## missmychance (Jan 20, 2011)

I got my dog from a byb and I think I got lucky with Frodo but I have since learned a lot and would not recommend. I also agree there are to many people out there just to make money that don't care about the breed. Frodo has some behavior problems towards other dogs that were working on but they sure didn't come from his parents or his upbringing. If we decide to get another in the future, we are definately going to a rescue. Fancy titles are not important to me, I just want a happy healthy dog.


----------



## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I got my first GSD from the pet store (same as a BYB) I tell everyone not to buy any dog from a pet store. Live and learn.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I know what you're saying and have noticed this too. 

I think people feel they're being called out as bad dog owners or their dog isn't as good as a dog from a better breeder, so it kind of offends them. 

They feel they have to defend their dog when really it's not the individual dog that's the issue.


----------



## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I think alot of the times when people say titles don't matter, it's because of lack of knowledge and experience. Heck, I said it! I didn't "need" a title for my dog. For what? I'm not going to work him. So why on earth should I pay an extra $500+ for a dog who has titled parents vs. a dog who does not?

Well, lets just say from this point forward, I will NOT purchase a dog from untitled parents. There's no PROOF of what it's parents were able to do. And everybody believes their dog is great in some way, and some people don't admit it's weak points. I have no idea whether or not Jackson's parents really were stable minded in all aspects of life. I was TOLD they were, but he is a little jittery, much better than he was when he was small, but I have reason to believe at least one of his parents were NOT fully stable and I have nothing to go off of to prove that.

Arlo? I'm not even going to go there....

I would never recommend the breeders of either of my dogs and have definately learned alot! Doesn't mean I don't love them, but I have learned alot.....


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

missmychance said:


> I got my dog from a byb and I think I got lucky with Frodo but I have since learned a lot and would not recommend. I also agree there are to many people out there just to make money that don't care about the breed. *Frodo has some behavior problems towards other dogs that were working on but they sure didn't come from his parents* or his upbringing. If we decide to get another in the future, we are definately going to a rescue. *Fancy titles are not important to me, I just want a happy healthy dog.*


Are you sure about that? Behavioral issues can very well be genetic.

Fancy titles aren't just about fancy letters on a pedigree. They're also sort of a temperament test too. A dog with a title has proven that they can work and work under pressure (in a crowd, with other dogs around, under pressure, etc.). A dog aggressive or human aggressive dog likely isn't going to have those titles. These type of behavioral characteristics are genetic and is why i personally like to see titled parents.

Any dog (behavior issues or not) can have puppies. It's the ones with PROVEN temperament that I like to get my puppy from.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think we learn the most from our worst dogs, not our best dogs.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm becoming a "thorn" in the butt....I know.
BUT....puppies can be born of great parents and lineage, and still have serious issues in temperament & health.
No breeder is mother nature...and the best any breeder can possibly do, is have the goal, knowledge and dedication to produce puppies and dogs of sound mind, body & character.
Things happen...and always will....they are living/breathing creatures.
We have all suffered through at least 1 dog of questionable health or mind....I know that I have....some worse than others. But I can honestly say....I can't blame the breeder. 
It was the chance we took, when we purchased an 8 wk old puppy.
Shoot...don't even get me started on the "questionable" adult dogs we *learned* from in the past.....


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I see what you are saying and agree. My family and I got Molly from a BYB/oops, but wouldn't trade her for the world. Before this forum I had no clue about good breeders, actually I did, but not enough. I have learned alot since coming to this board. I will never recommend where we got Molly from to anyone. We got her for $25, alot cheaper than most BYBs. My family and I got Tanner from a shelter and wouldn't hesitate to get another dog from that shelter. Despite my dogs flaws, I love them very much and wouldn't trade them for the world.

If someone doesn't care about titles then go through rescue. There are indeed many beautiful dogs in rescues. You can indeed get puppies from rescues & shelters, you can get dogs of all ages from rescues and shelters. Why not go that route instead of buying dogs from BYBs, puppy stores/mills??

I will always get dogs from reputable rescues, shelters and reputable breeders. I like to see titles because it shows what my puppy's parents excelled at and gives me an insight at what my pup will be able to do and excel at, I really like to see health testing, seeing that my dog's parents had great results I know my puppy will be healthy. Many rescues and shelters also give medical information on their dogs and treat their dogs health issues.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't go to a breeder thinking this person is reputable and knowledgable in the breed thinking I will be insured a good puppy. It is still a gamble and no one is immune from the roulette that genetics brings. I have been crazy lucky with rescues as far as health and trainability...go figure.

But, I do like to support breeding programs where I appreciate the understsnding of the breed, the knowledge and effort expended to produce a good GSD. A good breeder does give you an idea of the type and characteristics they anticipate from a pairing. Often it will be so, unfortunately there really are no guarantees in this business of biology.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Samba said:


> I don't go to a breeder thinking this person is reputable and knowledgable in the breed thinking I will be insured a good puppy. It is still a gamble and no one is immune from the roulette that genetics brings. I have been crazy lucky with rescues as far as health and trainability...go figure.
> 
> *But, I do like to support breeding programs where I appreciate the understsnding of the breed, the knowledge and effort expended to produce a good GSD. A good breeder does give you an idea of the type and characteristics they anticipate from a pairing. Often it will be so, unfortunately there really are no guarantees in this business of biology.*


I agree completely.


----------



## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Please understand though, that not all of us obtained our dogs before we had substantial knowledge (which is wrong, still) about what BYBs are, and what puppy mills are. This is why it's so important to read, research and learn before getting any dog. But for some of us here, at one point we were naive or didn't know anything, or were kids, as in my case.

My mother's two dogs and my Pomeranian (a gift from her to me when I lost my collie) came from a pet store, and therefore, a puppy mill. I was still a kid for the first two, and didn't know about the Pom until after the fact. Would I buy one from a pet store now? Absolutely not - but I have educated myself. When my mom's ShiPoo developed health problems, I began reading and found out about PMs. I had no idea they existed prior. It was shocking.

Do I love my Pom? More than life itself. He is my world, my friend, my wingman... but he is flawed. He is dominant. He barks incessantly. He does not socialize well. He is bowlegged, his coat isn't correct (no coarse overcoat) he's slightly too large and his head isn't to standard. But I wouldn't trade him for the world.

Lexie and Racey are riddled with health issues. Food allergies, skin allergies, cherry eye, luxating patellas, aggression, extreme shyness, chronic ear infections, etc. Some may get lucky by obtaining a "good dog" from a bad breeder - but this is often not the case, as seen with me. The only dogs of mine that are healthy - Cooper, my extremely well bred corgi, and Remi, my GSD from a great breeder.

I don't know or understand why people find those of us who title, work to title, or whose dogs come from titled backgrounds to be snobs. It's unfair to criticize someone for hard work, determination and dedication to the breed they love. If one is unconcerned with titles, instead of looking for a cheaper alternative, seek a shelter or rescue - because I hate to see the breed suffer for stupid reasons.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

robinhuerta said:


> I'm becoming a "thorn" in the butt....I know.
> BUT....puppies can be born of great parents and lineage, and still have serious issues in temperament & health.
> No breeder is mother nature...and the best any breeder can possibly do, is have the goal, knowledge and dedication to produce puppies and dogs of sound mind, body & character.
> Things happen...and always will....they are living/breathing creatures.
> ...


Very true. Temperament and health wise, anything can happen... titled, ofa'd parents or not. 

I just think it's best to at least stack the deck in your (or at least the puppy's) favor. I think by going the titled and health checked route, you're at least helping your odds in getting a sound body and mind puppy.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

I guess I am one of 'those' people that would, without hesitation, buy another pup from the same unreputable breeder that I bought Kain from. I am completely satisfied with his health, temperment, intelligence, akc registration, and lack of parental titles. I have no intentions of ever breeding him, so titles mean nothing to me. Kain is now 10 mos old and I have experienced none of the health or behavioral problems that I have read so much about on this forum (fingers crossed). Call it luck, or good breeding, I don't know. And, he definately fits into the breed standard, even without a titled parent. 

Ya know, the pups *will *be born whether I buy one or not. So as a result of me buying it, I am definately preventing this particular pup from going to the shelter in the future. Can you imagine the overcrowding in shelters if responsible/caring pet owners just stopped buying from byb's or pet shops? Because you and I both know the pups would continue to come. Basicly, get it now as a pup (where you can care for it properly) or wait 2 years and pick the same dog up from the shelter (after it's been abused, neglected, and who knows what). I know this reply probably won't sit well with the reputable breeders and shelter volounteers here, and I apologize. I'm not taking jabs at anyone, just stating my opinion.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It is a learning process about what makes a breeder reputable. There was a time when I would have purchased a puppy out of the newspaper. Showed up with my money, taken the one that I liked the most, and left. I used to think that titles were for elitist snobs - why should anyone care about titles exept those who are so insecure that they need something on paper to show that their dogs are somewhat "better". I chuckled and snorted at the thought - as if ANY dog could be any better than MY dogs! And my dogs were rescues! Why spend all that money for a piece of paper and for titles - total nonsense and hogwash! 

Then I got involved in advanced training with one of these my rescues. The more I did, the more I enjoyed it, the better the bond with my dog. The more time I spent with owners of GSDs from good breeders, the more I SAW the difference between what makes a pet-quality dog, and a dog that has all the genetic strenghts of the breed. The more I read on the forums the more I understood the importance of testing your breeding stock, and being able to back up and proove the abilities and potential of your dogs through trials and titles. 

Did all this new-found understanding made me value and love my rescue any less? Of course not - if anything, it made me see how genetics is the main limitation of a dog's ability and potential, made me appreciate what amazing effort she put through to live up to my expectations, and made me marvel at how far she has come, and how she exceeded everyone's expectations - yet there are still areas where no matter of work and training and motivation will get her to the potential that a well bred dog carries within. 

Among the general pet population, mine was a shining star in our (pet) obedience and tracking classes. People and the instructors always commented on the "star" of the class. I was pretty proud of my girl, I had a genius on my hands! Because I enjoyed the training so much, and because she was showing so much potential and talent, I started her in Schutzhund. 

Well, ya know, she may have been the Queen Bee of anything we tried out there among your average dog population, but it was a whole different ball game in Schutzhund! We worked twice as hard, and barely held our own. It really opened my eyes as to what a well bred GSD is, and how important that breeders understand, from hands-on involvement, what it takes to maintain that ability to work at that level in the breed. 

If people want a GSD because they admire the traits and talents and strong personality of what makes a GSD stand apart from all other breeds, then I agree, Brandi, they should support the breeders that work so hard to maintain the breed qualities, and not dismiss titles as not important. Doesn't make their dogs worth any less - EVERY dog is priceless and irreplaceable and wonderful. Though if they are happy with their dog, I understand them wanting to go back to the same breeder and wanting another dog like their first one - doesn't make them bad owners, nor the breeder bad breeders, nor their dogs bad dogs, but still if someone was asking me for a reference, I would direct them away from pet breeders and direct them towards breeders who do title their dogs, or have years of experience doing so, and can draw on that knowledge and experience for their breeding program.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> I'm becoming a "thorn" in the butt....I know.
> BUT....puppies can be born of great parents and lineage, and still have serious issues in temperament & health.
> No breeder is mother nature...and the best any breeder can possibly do, is have the goal, knowledge and dedication to produce puppies and dogs of sound mind, body & character.
> Things happen...and always will....they are living/breathing creatures.
> ...


I completely agree. I didn't mean to imply that buying from a reputable breeder meant nothing could go wrong. The deck is stacked for good things yes but anything can happen. A breeder with a history of producing sound dogs should not be thought of as anything less if they produce a dog that doesn't live up to what they typically produce.

Also, I don't think you've ever been a thorn in anyone's side. You're a very knowledgeable respected member of this forum. We are lucky to have you here


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

RazinKain said:


> . Can you imagine the overcrowding in shelters if responsible/caring pet owners just stopped buying from byb's or pet shops?


That would certainly be the case for a while. But once the puppy producers figured out that they were losing money and the "caring" people who "just want to breed Molly once or twice" realize that their pups are NOT going to good homes and they have to face the decision to either drop them off at the shelter or take care of all of them. . . . . . they'd stop producing so  many dogs.


I try very hard not to buy items that I know are produced by child slave labor in 3rd world countries. I realize I can't change the world, but I try not to contribute to suffering with my hard-earned dollars.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> It is a learning process about what makes a breeder reputable. There was a time when I would have purchased a puppy out of the newspaper. Showed up with my money, taken the one that I liked the most, and left. I used to think that titles were for elitist snobs - why should anyone care about titles exept those who are so insecure that they need something on paper to show that their dogs are somewhat "better". I chuckled and snorted at the thought - as if ANY dog could be any better than MY dogs! And my dogs were rescues! Why spend all that money for a piece of paper and for titles - total nonsense and hogwash!
> 
> Then I got involved in advanced training with one of these my rescues. The more I did, the more I enjoyed it, the better the bond with my dog. The more time I spent with owners of GSDs from good breeders, the more I SAW the difference between what makes a pet-quality dog, and a dog that has all the genetic strenghts of the breed. The more I read on the forums the more I understood the importance of testing your breeding stock, and being able to back up and proove the abilities and potential of your dogs through trials and titles.
> 
> ...


Lucia, I always love reading your posts :thumbup: 

What I bolded is why I disagree. A breeder without that knowledge and experience is not going to consistantly produce the same type dog. Unless it is a repeat breeding and the previous pup from that litter wasn't a fluke.

I understand why they would want another dog just like theirs. I think they need to understand that the odds of that happening are slim unless it is a situation like I posted above.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Most of you if not all of your know that Shasta was the result of an oops litter with her father being a VERY determined male. I love Shasta to pieces and i wouldnt trade her for anything. She's a very sweet girl and smart. Probably a lot smarter than we even know right now. But i would NOT go back and get another pup that resulted in another litter from her parents. Since joining this forum i've learned a great deal. So much so my husband just kinda tunes me out when i start talking about dogs lol. Course i guess its fair because i tune him out when he starts talking about everything under the sun about what happened at work which is usually the same thing that happened a few days ago too. Anyway, Shasta is a great pup and so far we've been really lucky health wise but both her parents were also healthy dogs. I've learned a great deal about reputable breeders and have found a few i wouldnt hesitate to go through for my next pup. hehe (severe puppy fever going on right now BTW!). Titles arent a huge deal for me primarily because i dont really know anything about them. I dont know how to read a pedigree which is why i'll be coming on here to ask opinions. BUT i do know and believe that titled parents is a great thing because it also helps me in knowing i'll get an extremely intelligent and trainable animal instead of a dud that would only succeed in driving me absolutely insane. I cant stand untrained dogs and i really cant stand dogs who cant or refuse to be trained for one reason or another. Shasta is very mellow as far as the landsharks go and i'm pretty certain its because both her parents were pet line types. I would prefer to adopt or go through a reputable breeder for the quality dog that shows the breed as true as possible.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I could care less if my dog's parents had any titles. If the parent's hips and temperament are good, that is all I need.

Do you know how many of the world's top race horses are born from no-name sires and dams? The ones that cost millions can be complete duds and the ones that cost 2000 can be triple crown winners. 

Any dog can be taught to jump over hurdles and run over obstacles. Some are faster, some are slower.

However, when a burglar breaks into my house, he won't give a #### if my dog can run an obstacle five seconds faster than yours.

What I want in my dog is companionship, loyalty, and protection. 

My next german shepherd will be from a reputable breeder because I want him to be socialized correctly at a young age, vaccinated, and better hope for good hips and temperament.

Titles mean nothing to me. A dog's capabilities are not determined by what its parents did. There are MANY dogs out there that are more than capable of being champions but are never shown.

If every german shepherd was forced to compete, then I would care about titles. However, the champion now could have 50 dogs better than it that just never tried.

I'm not saying that titling is bad---don't get me wrong and hate on me all you competitors...I LOVE watching your videos and I love watching it on tv...

If my life was dedicated to winning titles, I would up the odds that I would win by choosing a pup from two parents with titles...however, I don't judge a dog on that.

I just feel like it is judging a horse based on how well its parents did in dressage competitions.

To me, TEMPERMENT (which I can't spell) is the biggest factor. An intelligent dog with a good temper can be taught anything.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I could care less if my dog's parents had any titles. *If the parent's hips and temperament are good, that is all I need*.


I'll assume that by hips you also meant to include all health.

How do you prove good temperament without titles? Almost everyday there is a person posting who can't tell the difference between a fear reaction and protection.


----------



## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> Ya know, the pups *will *be born whether I buy one or not. So as a result of me buying it, I am definately preventing this particular pup from going to the shelter in the future.


But the issue with that is this (and I learned this doing a huge report on puppy mills) is that those types of breeders or mills operate by supply and demand - when you purchase a puppy, he goes to your wonderful, loving forever home. BUT, now a spot is vacant at the breeder's place - a spot she will fill with ANOTHER puppy. A puppy that may be bought by someone who is unprepared for a GSD, uneducated about GSD puppies, and who may as a result end up getting rid of it. Either way, by being bought, ANOTHER spot has opened up and the breeder will breed another puppy to fill it. And so the cycle goes on and on. BUT, if people became educated about BYBs and puppy mills, if they did a lot of learning online and read a lot of info on reputable breeders, and only got dogs from them, the BYBs and puppy mills would cease to operate.

Titles, for me anyway, indicate far more about the breeders themselves rather than the talents of the parents and the potential for those talents to rub off on my puppy. A breeder who has titled dogs is a breeder that has put a lot of work and effort into her dogs, who obviously dedicates a lot of time, energy and work to training them and competing with them to improve her stock, her program, and the GSD as a breed. That's why I like a titled pedigree. It's really got very little to do with the puppy possessing any of the ancestors' abilities, but moreso the dedication to the breed and her dogs in general from the breeder. I want a breeder who is involved heavily with dogs, GSDs, and all that they do. Not just a pretty dog with a good temperament - that's all great and wonderful, of course, but I seek more.


----------



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> I'll assume that by hips you also meant to include all health.
> 
> How do you prove good temperament without titles? Almost everyday there is a person posting who can't tell the difference between a *fear reaction and protection.*


in a burglary type situation, one reaction would be just as good as the other, right? I mean, who really cares if your GSD attacked the burglar out of fear or his inherent desire to protect. Just sayin.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> in a burglary type situation, one reaction would be just as good as the other, right? I mean, who really cares if your GSD attacked the burglar out of fear or his inherent desire to protect. Just sayin.


Not all fear reactions will lead to a bite. Once they learn their barking act isn't going to work many will turn and run once they have the chance. 

Plus, fearful dogs have other risks. Like when they think the person walking by is a threat and bites them. Or they see a guy from a block away and bark and lunge so badly they break free of their collar and who knows what happens.

Could go on and on. Read the behavior section :crazy:


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

RazinKain said:


> in a burglary type situation, one reaction would be just as good as the other, right? I mean, who really cares if your GSD attacked the burglar out of fear or his inherent desire to protect. Just sayin.


Because the fearful one is just as likely to bite the girlscout selling cookies as the burgler. Dogs that "protect" out of fear often end up as fear biters that bite the wrong people. A dog that will attack out of fear is a huge liability; they need a stable temperament and nerves of steel to distiguish a true threat from something that only seems scary.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

RazinKain said:


> in a burglary type situation, one reaction would be just as good as the other, right? I mean, who really cares if your GSD attacked the burglar out of fear or his inherent desire to protect. Just sayin.


Without formal training, how is fearful dog supposed to know the difference between a burglar and the neighbors kid who just happens to walk in uninvited to pet the cute doggie? 

Accidents like this can and do happen.


----------



## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Plus, say your dog attacks the burglar, and when the cops arrive, the dog attacks them, too - only this time, they shoot him.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

raise the bar --- I wish people were more demanding and had a better understanding on what good temperament is. Thresholds should be higher . We have too many thin nerved , fear reactive dogs . Solid sound nerve base should be a very basic minimum standard , not the exception. Without temperament you do not have a working dog . 
why would you keep rewarding non reputable breeders? Would you submit to surgery from a non reputable doctor ? You are placing your life in their hands. A "nasty" dog can also impact your life -- (law suits) , health expenses . On health expenses I keep hearing comments like -- a GSD is an expensive breed , count on about $3,000 in health expenses --- not a direct quote . What ?? Since when is that acceptable. My dogs are born, they eat , they grow, they work , they live to 13 - 14 years . They are not denied any care that they may need . The only time I need to visit the vet is for rabies shots, and x rays - prelimbs and certifications . That's it . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> I just feel like it is judging a horse based on how well its parents did in dressage competitions.


Yes, you are right - judging an individual dog solely on the accomplishments of the parents is no guarantee that the offspring or further generations will carry forward the same abilities and talents. Each dog does have to stand on his own, not on his pedigree - but that is exactly why good breeders will WANT to hold back progeny, train and title the dogs, to be able to judge not just the parents that they are breeding, but also to evaluate what they are producing. Some dams and sires replicate themselves very well. They have "strong" genes, so to speak, and pass them on consistently, while other dogs are highly titled and accomplished, but whatever genetic combination they inherited is not passed on so easily, and have a lesser probability of producing the same. 

So you are right, in order to SEE if the abilities are passed on, one needs to evaluate the individual dog, but just as in horse breeding, some lines are consistently strong, and the strenght of the line is maintained by bringing as many of the offspring through training and trialing to find the strongest dogs (or horses), and continue on the lines by breeding those individual dogs. Breeders will also study lines to find consistently well producing sires to mate with their consistently well producing dams - then to continue on with the maintenance of the lines, the stronger dogs are kept back and bred again.

Most pet breeders will glory on the many champions and SchHIII in a breeding dog's pedigree, two, three, or even more generations back. There is no way to really know if the strenghts of those ancestors have been passed on or lost . . . they can easily be lost if not specifically identified and bred for. 

I know that as an individual owner, people are not that concerned about these issues, they just want a nice dog - but when getting a dog from a pet breeder who'se greatest selling point is "cute puppies", so much is lost in the breedings.  

There is probably a bazillion breeders of untitled pet quality GSDs out there, pumping out a bazillion of GSDs with health and temperament issues, because most people don't care about titles, and just want a nice pet, and often the breeder of nice pets will charge the same or almost the same as the breeder that makes it their life's work to breed dogs of fearless and incorruptible character, as called for by the breed standard.

How many people come on the board and need help with extremly shy and fearful puppies that grow up to be extremely shy and fearful adult dogs that just about fall apart during thunderstorms and other noisy activities. Where do they come from? From SchH titled parents, or from pet dog producers who don't feel that titles make a difference? 

Would be interesting to do a poll acutally, and see.


----------



## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I'd definitely say that my dog Alice is one of the thin nerved, bred for money dogs. It took many hours of walking her in different situations to get through that. She still doesn't like Petsmart but it's the floors and my inconsistancy.
As far as health goes, her hips and elbows are good; but she has ideopathic epilepsy. I'm on her third vet in two years to find a good drug combination. (That's a whole different multi-volume rant)

I also am glad she's in my enviroment and not some "first time dog owners" and sometimes wonder if her littermates were fortunate enough to land with experienced owners.

But, I love the bossy girl to death.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

idiopathic epilepsy. I have experience working with greyhound rescue , many of which have epilepsy . Improve the plane of nutrition -- made vast difference , reduced seizures to almost zero. Also know of helpful "holistic/homeopathic" aides - 
you can private message me 
Carmen


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Castlemaid said:


> Yes, you are right - judging an individual dog solely on the accomplishments of the parents is no guarantee that the offspring or further generations will carry forward the same abilities and talents. Each dog does have to stand on his own, not on his pedigree - but that is exactly why good breeders will WANT to hold back progeny, train and title the dogs, to be able to judge not just the parents that they are breeding, but also to evaluate what they are producing. Some dams and sires replicate themselves very well. They have "strong" genes, so to speak, and pass them on consistently, while other dogs are highly titled and accomplished, but whatever genetic combination they inherited is not passed on so easily, and have a lesser probability of producing the same.
> 
> So you are right, in order to SEE if the abilities are passed on, one needs to evaluate the individual dog, but just as in horse breeding, some lines are consistently strong, and the strenght of the line is maintained by bringing as many of the offspring through training and trialing to find the strongest dogs (or horses), and continue on the lines by breeding those individual dogs. Breeders will also study lines to find consistently well producing sires to mate with their consistently well producing dams - then to continue on with the maintenance of the lines, the stronger dogs are kept back and bred again.
> 
> ...


Very nice post! 100% agreed with everything you said. :thumbup:

I'd be interested in this poll too.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> To me, TEMPERMENT (which I can't spell) is the biggest factor. An intelligent dog with a good temper can be taught anything.


How do you evaluate if the dog has a good temperament and is passing it on if titles don't matter in the least? You say that you want a good dog with great health clearances. How are you evaluating that if your dog comes from a BYB that has no idea what they are doing?

There are some people who can get away without titling their dogs in SchH. There are some other avenues that I think test dogs well the way a GSD should be, such as SDA. But, for the majority of breeders...you need to get out there and title your dogs. You have no other way to begin to show that your dog is passing on the traits and TEMPERAMENT that a GSD should have unless you are showing that.

That's great that you don't care about titles and just want a protector. But it doesn't mena you should be getting a dog from a litter with unproven dogs for several generations. 

No, a title doesn't prove the dogs is all that. But it is a good starting place. WOrking ability is the most important thing with this breed.


----------



## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I do not see anything wrong with titles. Where I do have a problem is it seems the only titles that matter are Sch when there are many other titles. Yes I understand that this is what they do in Europe and this tells allot about a dog. But ok last I knew GSD were bred for herding, I do not see anyone asking for these dogs to have those titles. Maybe I am missing something, I really do not know allot about titles.

I do know that there are allot of GSD that have titled parents and do not have great temperments. They have huge health issues as well. Maybe it is just my area but when I talk to a Sch trainer and he tells me allot of the GSD he now see are garbage meaning fearful, skittish, etc. You gotta wonder what good those titles are doing. I then wonder if some breeders are just breeding for the titles and not genetics? Just because a dog has a title does not mean it will not bite someone!

I spent years looking at breeders and went with dogs that I knew had good temperments from people that had those dogs. You do not breed for 30 plus years in a small community if your breeding garbage.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My Sinister is from a byb, he is everything I ever wanted, I wouldn't trade him for the world, he is perfect to me and I dont think I could love anything as much as I love him. But I would NEVER reccomend his breeder to anyone. I would never buy from them again.

I haven't even been on this forum for a whole year yet but I can tell you I know the difference between a byb and a reputable breeder. I will never buy from a byb again. I will only go through a reputable breeder from now on. I am getting a puppy next year from a great breeder and I couldn't be more excited and the money I will spend will definitly be worth it.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

[QUOTE=vat;2045249]I do not see anything wrong with titles. Where I do have a problem is it seems the only titles that matter are Sch when there are many other titles. Yes I understand that this is what they do in Europe and this tells allot about a dog. But ok last I knew GSD were bred for herding, I do not see anyone asking for these dogs to have those titles. Maybe I am missing something, I really do not know allot about titles.

I do know that there are allot of GSD that have titled parents and do not have great temperments. They have huge health issues as well. Maybe it is just my area but when I talk to a Sch trainer and he tells me allot of the GSD he now see are garbage meaning fearful, skittish, etc. You gotta wonder what good those titles are doing. I then wonder if some breeders are just breeding for the titles and not genetics? Just because a dog has a title does not mean it will not bite someone!

I spent years looking at breeders and went with dogs that I knew had good temperments from people that had those dogs. You do not breed for 30 plus years in a small community if your breeding garbage.[/QUOTE]

Sure you can. Most people are completely clueless. There is a breeder here locally...american line byb is the nicest thing I can say about them. Almost every person I have come across in the area that has a gsd has one from them. Want to know why I have seen so many? People contacting rescue because they are fed up with the huge amount of bad nerves and health problems their dogs have. Also seen a lot of garbage they are producing from just being about town and involved in dog stuff. Out of the probably 2 dozen dogs I have seen from this breeder I have seen 2 that are good working dogs. Despite these problems they keep on selling dogs. Why? Because bad breeders can get away with producing ok perty dogs for the most part. Your average owner is clueless as to what dogs on this breed should act like and seem to think their dogs genetic fear biting is all part of what owning agsd is about. They easily fall into being convinced working dogs means nothing.

Schh has been THE breed test for gsds for a long time. Yes and herding is one component. Gsds were bred FROM herding dogs to create the perfect all around utility dog. Herding is one component of that that can be used. The ability of the dog to work is paramount to this breed. Obviously bad dogs can get a schh title. But it is an important part of showing the dog as breed worthy. Them it is up to the responsible breeders to take these schh dogs and pair them correctly to one another based on their strengths and weaknesses to maintain this breed.

I youf are not working and titling you're dogs what do you know about their breed wothiness? Nothing.


----------



## rgollar (Dec 19, 2010)

I agree with buying from a reputable breeder all the way. But When ask by other people in my dog training classes what I paid for my dog they freak. One lady the other day said well I only paid 600 dollars for my dog and he does just as good as yours and looks as good. Then another person piped up and said same here, then noted no way would I pay that kind of money for the same dog. Now I know this is ignorance talking. But don't you think pricing plays a big role in people buying from byb. Don't get me wrong I know in the long run it will cost them more, but uneducated ones do not realize that. I have to admit when I got my first dog I struggled with the price difference. Not anymore after further educating myself. I was just amazed at the peoples at my dog school that had the attitude I'm not showing my dog so I'm not paying that kind of money. My dog is akc just like yours. But in time they will pay more.


----------



## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

...It was the chance we took, when we purchased an 8 wk old puppy.


I've been wrestling with this lately, so I was interested in this thread. Seems as if buying a puppy is a crap shoot at times. First, I recently lost a 14-year-old rescue who was beautiful, sweet and healthy. She was nearly perfect except that she whined non-stop in the car. We have a 5-year-old white GSD from a byb. He's gorgeous but has a quirky temperament, and he and all of the adult dogs were kept in kennels outside, literally a back yard breeder. Wouldn't recommend him for the world. Love the dog, though. Now I have Dexter, who just turned a year old this month. I researched the heck out of GSDs this time and decided that I wanted a very specific look (temperament & health go without saying), and decided on a WGSL, then researched breeders all over the place. I actually found two locally and the first one fell through, which was a big disappointment. In retrospect, I should have waited when the second one came up with a glitch. I wanted a male, and the puppy selected ended up having a heart murmur, so she said she couldn't sell him. I appreciated that. And that's when she emailed me (I was out of state on a business trip) and said she had an import who was a week or so older (about 9 or 10 weeks) and that he was even superior to her dogs. (Sire is VA2 Remo vom Fichtenschlag and dam's sire is VA1 Vegas du Haut Mansard) I checked out the dogs online and agreed to see the puppy. She said she would charge the same as what I was going to pay for one of her pups -- $3,000. Crazy amount of money for a dog I wasn't going to show, but I really wanted a great dog. I saw him and he took him home. Don't get me wrong, he's a terrific dog and worth the money just in his sweet disposition. I'm thrilled with that and absolutely love him dearly. However, we've had soft ear issues. I've tried everything and he has one ear up, and the other is down 99-percent of the time. So, he's cute, but he doesn't have the look I was seeking. At his age, I'm not sure it's even worth placing an ear form back in. He has an overbite and I think he's a bit cow hocked. A trainer told me to make sure to get him neutered because he wasn't show/breeding material. He was already neutered and I never had any intention of doing either. He still has that gawky look to me. I think if I told anyone on the street how much I paid for him, they would think I'm the biggest sucker around. I haven't even sent in his papers because I'm wondering what's the point. Now I'm sounding petulant. I apologize about that. It was just a ton of money, and I don't feel as if I got everything I wanted. I wonder if the German breeder just sent over the dog in the litter they didn't want and somehow she got him. She (breeder I got him from) has a lot of connections in Germany, so she's savvy, and she titles her dogs and has many terrific dogs herself. And maybe Dex will grow into the beautiful swan. I'm just not sure I got a $3,000 dog and that's why I say it can be a crap shoot. I've never mentioned any of this to the breeder. Think I should? Thanks so much for "listening" to this diatribe. 
*
*


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> If someone doesn't care about titles then go through rescue. There are indeed many beautiful dogs in rescues. You can indeed get puppies from rescues & shelters, you can get dogs of all ages from rescues and shelters. Why not go that route instead of buying dogs from BYBs, puppy stores/mills??


 This is an idealistic view. There are not nearly enough purebred puppies in rescue to fill the demand for pet GSDs. And not enough pets being produced by serious breeders in the popular breeds. And some really great owners just can't justify spending $1000-2000 on a pet dog. That leaves pet and commercial breeders. The trade of is for more availablity and lower price (or in the case of pet stores the ability to make "low monthly payments"), they are generally getting a puppy from a much more unknown background. That is ok with some people though, I really don't see the demand for puppies from pet breeders ever going away.


----------



## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

AgileGSD said:


> This is an idealistic view. There are not nearly enough purebred puppies in rescue to fill the demand for pet GSDs. And not enough pets being produced by serious breeders in the popular breeds. And some really great owners just can't justify spending $1000-2000 on a pet dog. That leaves pet and commercial breeders. The trade of is for more availablity and lower price (or in the case of pet stores the ability to make "low monthly payments"), they are generally getting a puppy from a much more unknown background. That is ok with some people though, I really don't see the demand for puppies from pet breeders ever going away.


I totally agree with this post. Just to add my point of view, we have gotten 2 purebred puppies from rescues over the years and both of them were from BYB's. All of our dogs have been rescues, but that is our preference. Some have been great dogs, but have had a variety of health issues.
We have decided that our next dog will come from breeder and we have already started doing preliminary "looking around" to get the process started.
I have loved all our rescue dogs, but we are going with a reputable breeder for our next dog so that we can give ourselves the best shot at finding a dog with the temperment and lack of health issues possible. I realize that nothing is ever %100, but, in the long run, I believe that spending more "up front" will eliminate spending the same amount of money over time. I guess we'll find out.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have grown so weary of this debate. Put your money where your mouth is. 

Complain all you want. What is being done to educate people *before* they purchase a puppy? 

I want a GSD- I am looking for a puppy - where is the first place I'm going to look? What are the first ads I'm going to find? What is being done to combat that? 

You can talk about why you shouldn't purchase a dog from a byb till the cows come home. I fail to see anybody come up with a realistic idea on how puppys from 'reputable' breeders should be marketed best for the general public to find before they locate their closest byb.


----------



## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

Do you think that we're talking about some different issues here?

What is available for those who just want a pet? 

I know that often the answer will be "rescue", however, that's not always feasible for a variety of reasons. 

Potential owner may not have the skills to work with a dog with fear aggression, or food aggression, or with a dog from an abusive background, or one who has multiple other issues. Or the owner may just not want to work with that. 

When we were looking we wanted to adopt from a shelter. A GS mix was fine. We did, however, have certain things we wanted, such as a puppy under 3 months. There were also certain mixes we didn't want. 

Our shelters during that time didn't have much in the way of puppies. We found Eva on Craigslist, 10 minutes from our house. She was free, so I don't know how much support we gave that oops breeder. 

What we did know (see) was her mother, her siblings, the owners, their kids, the health of the mother and the pups (I called their vet) and that the pups had received their first exam and shots. 

I know that her overall adult health is yet to be determined and that she could also have issues that may crop up. What she won't do is breed, as she has been spayed. 

What the whole point of this is, I think, is that some owners want to work or show their dogs, other just want a pet. Somewhere there needs to be a resource just for that, that doesn't mean poor breeding by a BYB or the full price for a working/show dog (although I don't begrudge reputable breeders what they charge).


----------



## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

I think this thread is a bit different from the usual debate. The point I think the OP was trying to make is that even after being "educated" about BYB's some people who purchased a dog from one would do it again.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Kris10 said:


> I think this thread is a bit different from the usual debate. The point I think the OP was trying to make is that even after being "educated" about BYB's *some people who purchased a dog from one would do it again.*


and recommend that breeder to others.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Kris10 said:


> I think this thread is a bit different from the usual debate. The point I think the OP was trying to make is that even after being "educated" about BYB's some people who purchased a dog from one would do it again.


This happened recently on a different board I belong to. Someone lost a BYB dog young and made a very impromptu (and IMO, emotionally motivated) decision to buy another mixed toy type dog also from a mill (one of those online puppy broker sites where they sell "designer" mixes and dress them up for photos). Several people very nicely offered to help find a GOOD breeder but the person got all defensive about it so we let it be. Well, now that dog is dying and is only a few years old.

My three shepherds are from breeders *I* consider reputable. At least, I do recommend them depending on what someone wants and I would go back to either again for future dogs. I guess I can't say I've ever bought a dog from a mill or BYB, but I'm naturally a very cautious and analytical person. Honestly it has taken more time, research, and hands-on experience for me to really narrow down what I'm looking for in a dog than actually finding such a dog to buy. Getting the dog has always been the easy part for me.


----------



## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> here is a breeder here locally...american line byb is the nicest thing I can say about them. Almost every person I have come across in the area that has a gsd has one from them. Want to know why I have seen so many? People contacting rescue because they are fed up with the huge amount of bad nerves and health problems their dogs have. Also seen a lot of garbage they are producing from just being about town and involved in dog stuff. Out of the probably 2 dozen dogs I have seen from this breeder I have seen 2 that are good working dogs. Despite these problems they keep on selling dogs. Why? Because bad breeders can get away with producing ok perty dogs for the most part. Your average owner is clueless as to what dogs on this breed should act like and seem to think their dogs genetic fear biting is all part of what owning agsd is about. They easily fall into being convinced working dogs means nothing.
> .


Slightly OT but would you mind PMing the info of that breeder? Since you're in the same general area as I am I like to keep references of local breeders for when people ask.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

$3,000 for a pup !!! come on , that is another burr under the saddle for me . 
Show breeders are business breeders -- selling on virtue of big name.

I bust my buns , analysing performance , giving aptitude tests, selecting the right one for the right job, guaranteeing ofa certification for one half of that . Whereas all they do is sell on the name -- the number of big time winners , for vanity.
I get $3,000 which I ask for respectfully after months and months of specialized preparation and even then I guarantee graduation / certification.

That is a division in the breed. So many years ago there were two advanced ladies who imported some good dogs -- Griffith and Coppage --- I used to speak to them , long phone conversations (prior to emails) . They abandoned "working dogs" for the fact that there is so much work with no reward . Why kill yourself , keep a pup till it is old enough to test , with guarantees, after hundreds of hours of socializing , with no reward , when the guy down the road has a litter of show dogs that are presold because of some fancy ads and appealing to vanity ---- this dog is the son of Germany's grand pooh bah winner -- it is black and red -- and the dog is gone to its new home by 8 weeks of age.

There are other kennels which breed working -- and breed show (for the income)

rant over 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lilie said:


> I have grown so weary of this debate. Put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> Complain all you want. What is being done to educate people *before* they purchase a puppy?
> 
> ...



I hate to say it - but I see ads in the newspapers from big name kennels occassionally. And with the internet people CAN find websites of breeders in their states. AKC also has a sales page where breeders can list their pups (lets not go there about quality - but it is an option!) I have sold 2 pups through the AKC website - one to a Dr. at Johns Hopkins who *thought* AKC = quality....

Breeders need to spend time educating people who call who "just want a pet" and don't want to pay $1500 or more - they want that $500 puppy - those people I spend as much time as they will let me, and I ALWAYS refer them to rescue. One guy ended up driving 100 miles to a shelter and picking up a dog who I found on this site in the urgent listing...

If you love the breed, being a breeder is about more than just selling puppies.

Lee


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Kris10 said:


> I think this thread is a bit different from the usual debate. The point I think the OP was trying to make is that even after being "educated" about BYB's some people who purchased a dog from one would do it again.



Because so many people who want a GSD do NOT KNOW what a GSD really is....the watered down temperament, the lack of ability to do anything resembling work, is not an issue...they want a brown (red/tan/Braun on all SV papers) dog with a black saddle who has pointy ears and looks like their conception of Rin Tin Tin. They don't care about the integrity of the breed!!! They don't even KNOW what the breed is supposed to be and they get the look in a dog who stays in their house and yard and they are happy with that. Like the guys who would put snazzy fiberglass Ferrari style bodies on top of Volkswagens!!!!!!!!!!

Lee


----------



## Tammy GSD (Dec 26, 2010)

This is also an interesting topic for me, mainly because I'm still not really sure if mine was a reputable breeder or what constitutes one. I thought she was but I tell you, right now, I think she is certifiable (loony as a dodo) and not at all a good person. I think her house is way too small for the amount of dogs she has and that she is too poor to care for them properly (sort of).

She, her home, property and husband look like the stereotypical "red neck". The "Eukaneuba home pack" she sent was filled with a sample of Diamond, which said Euk. sent her bc they were out of samples??? She then told me that if I couldn't afford Diamond then go to TSC and get a bunch of free samples (she said she filled her purse with them). She told me that instead of paying the tax on the pup, I should go buy her a 40# bag of Euk. bc she desperately needed it and had no money to buy (I declined since the food was way more than I owed for the tax). This happened bc she neglected to tell me until AFTER I paid for Sheva that I owed tax on her.

Lots of things on a personal level, make me never want to talk to that breeder, ever, ever, EVER again. I would never ask her a question, not even if my life depended on it.

However, I found her bc she advertises EVERYWHERE...newspaper, eBay classified (where I initially found her), internet sites all over the world. She is literally everywhere. Her prices start at $1200 and the breeding pairs are Czech imports. She claims vet care and I verified that before buying the pup, by calling the vet, myself. They know her well (and when we walk in the door, they recognize Sheva as one of hers).

My Sheva is 4 months old, now, and is wonderful. I work her in Schutzhund and they say she has an insane prey drive and a nice defensive drive that is unheard of in a puppy this age. She is so smart and learns quickly. She is a very sound dog, physically, and mentally. I think she is gorgeous, too, and everywhere we go, we are told that she is so pretty! She is perfect!

So, is that breeder reputable or is she a byb? I still don't know. Would I recommend her? No way in heck! Would I recommend her pups? Absolutely and to this day, I still do! The breeder does not work her dogs to any title at all, though she advertises the pups are perfect for it. She is not involved in any sort of GSD training, be it show, OB, Sch or anything. She only breeds.

I wouldn't trade my dog for anything in the world. She is exactly what we were looking for, in every way, shape and form. European stock, great temperment, hard worker, great drives and she looks downright intimidating and, since we bought her for protection, is also important and perfect.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, there are plenty of GINOs (German Shepherd in name only) produced.  The first one I had is what caused me to begin to learn. I got the dog and was surprised because he did not seem to be what I thought a German Shepherd would be. People I was training with began to explain to me about the various dogs.

I guess that it doesn't really hang me up that people breed for different purposes, etc. I have all sorts of different lines. The thing I don't really get with is that people sell their dogs under the name of the breed. They appear to profit from the admirable reputation of the breed while not maintaining it!

I felt like saying about my dog something along the lines of Lloyd Benson to Dan Quayle....."fella, I knew a German Shepherd, I have seen a German Shepherd in service, a German Shepherd was a friend of mine. Pup, you are no German Shepherd".


----------



## Girth (Jan 27, 2011)

All very interesting. My GSD's are rescues. The oldest is a mix, and I suspect the other two may be as well. Just like kids they are only as good as their upbringing, and even then may still turn out to be a bad apple regardless of who their parents are. It would be nice to have a titled dog but my wife and I are happy helping out those GSD's that have been cast aside for one reason or another.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

Probably the simplest way of showing this debate is this,

John and Jane Smith and their two children want a dog, for a household pet. Not to show not for protection not anything other than a family companion. This goes across all breeds. So john and jane go to a local rescue, are shown a plethora of dogs that have issues, this one you like not good with kids, this one is ocd, this one no cats, this one chases cars, this one needs special 150$ a month food and 3 different medicines, Then there is the matter of a adoption fee that for that price they can purchase a pup from a "byb" ( i use that term loosely) that has none of the above problems... Yet... 
Not to mention once they see the adoption process, home visits, references, certain types of fencing, vet reference etc etc John and jane go whoa do we even want a dog? Of course they do if they dont the kids will be heartbroken. The other options are starting to look like their best bet. I do not fault them for this at this point. 

So john and jane go look at reputable breeders of working and show dogs, with prices ranging from 800$ to $3000 now that is a lot of commitment off the bat for a companion animal that is not going to be used for show or work. Not to mention to john and jane that's a chunk out of vacation fund, home repairs on and on. So john and jane get on C.L. or the newspaper and see these cute puppies for 150-350$ That seems much more reasonable to them for a companion animal, that they will incur a couple hundred more dollars in between first vet visit crates food leashes etc, so now they have about 500 600$ in a companion animal versus 1000$ plus for an animal intended for show or work.

They didnt want a show or working dog they wanted a family pet, nothing wrong with that, If anything we all have contributed to the situation john and jane are in. You are free to continue your work with the breed, bring certain traits in try to breed others out just as they are free to seek a companion animal and nothing more. The fact is just as many pedigreed carefully bred dogs *can produce* just as many health and temperament problems, Just because you breed something out is no guarantee, everyone can name one high pedigree dog that has had some severe health problem. Now why should john and jane pay that much money for the same risk?

The problem with all the given up dogs, mis treated dogs is that the breeder was not selective on who they sold too(not just blaming breeders or all of them read on). They did not educate the buyer on the breed, 

BUT John and Jane didn't do their research either, they stepped into a big pile of work they didn't know was coming. 

The problem comes from both sides all sides really. The backyard breeders" the Pedigree show breeders" and the Buyers" and maybe even all of us here ?

I dont know how many threads on here I have seen where people ranging from a few post to many thousands of post have said Oh it was so hard i didnt have a clue at first, but now i wouldn't give insert pets name here up for anything.

The key to all of this is _*public education!!!!!!!!!!*_ 

The fact is there are reputable backyard breeders who have the parents ofa'd take care of their animals dont over breed and screen potential buyers and try and educate them the best they can. 

The buyer needs to be able to discern between these back yard breeders and puppy mills, and I think another term is needed for the unscrupulous "back yard breeders" that solely do it for money. 

I do believe in maintaining purity of a breed and furthering it for purpose and the people who want that, can pay for that.

But to say you cant have a lab,gsd,malamute, etc because you cant pay 1000$ for a show/working pedigree you have no use for is ridiculous. Its like saying you shouldnt buy this chevy nova because someone put a 4 cylinder in it, its cheaper just as reliable and looks the same. Now it can have the same problems as a v8 and maybe even some different ones but as long as it was an honest person that built it and sold it, dont complain because it sold for cheaper than your v8 of the same.

We need to distinguish between the catch all back yard breeder as a negative term and establish the fact there are good breeders that are getting lumped into that category. I think that is where alot of these questions are coming from.

So tell me this what about something of a registry, not unlike the other pedigree organizations for regulating animals of a pet quality only, That wold ensure when a buyer sought a companion animal that they would get one of a healthy background, good temperament, and that one stipulation of belonging to this organization is the price of said companion animal is not to exceed say 500$, Keeping all fees charged to said organization, minimal as to keep a good certified pet at a decent cost and stop supporting puppy mills, BAD *cringe back yard breeders, and so forth. This would eliminate the expectation of a working dog, or a show dog or a pet from any given breeder and disappointment and perhaps abandonment of the animal . The fact is that all breeds can produce all of the above. No one person or group should be able to say they all have to be like X...

also note not all rescues are basket cases, did not mean to imply that.

A man can get discouraged many times but he is not a failure until he begins to blame somebody else and stops trying. 
John Burroughs


​


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It seems finding a reputable breeder also includes finding out the breeders business practices. I find it unethical to take back a puppy with health problems and then resell that puppy for a high price without full disclosure. 

How does a buyer find out information such as that? Ask other breeders? Wouldn't you find that unprofessional to have one breeder telling you bad things about another? I would! It would be a huge turn off for me and make me wonder about that breeders ethics? Find other buyers? But how do you do that? What questions should a buyer ask? 

 My head feels like it's going to explode with all the different aspects of finding a reputable breeder!


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

Guess we could just establish something like an Angie's list for breeders? Verification reviews etc? Thats my side of things a more standard way of discerning between the interbreed types. And a method of accountability for breeders.

We know just because someone is akc or whatever they are is no gaurentee of good breeding practices its just a standard of tracing lineage. Plain and simple. Titles say x dog did x, ok we established a trend but if someone produces a 100 pups a year of course a few of them will be able to be good but are they a good breeder? 



Jax08 said:


> It seems finding a reputable breeder also includes finding out the breeders business practices. I find it unethical to take back a puppy with health problems and then resell that puppy for a high price without full disclosure.
> 
> How does a buyer find out information such as that? Ask other breeders? Wouldn't you find that unprofessional to have one breeder telling you bad things about another? I would! It would be a huge turn off for me and make me wonder about that breeders ethics? Find other buyers? But how do you do that? What questions should a buyer ask?
> 
> My head feels like it's going to explode with all the different aspects of finding a reputable breeder!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

missmychance said:


> Frodo has some behavior problems towards other dogs that were working on but they sure didn't come from his parents or his upbringing.


Where else could they have come from? Behavior problems can be either nature (genetic) or nurture (environment, ie - upbringing), or a combination of both.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Backwoods, dude, awesome! That's exactly it, there is too big of a market, and we on this forum, who work dogs and don't just have them as companions, are too small of a minority to really do anything about it.

There's no establishing anything because only the people that have used those breeders would be able to post something. You can't have an official registry that has people going on there and talking about practices based on a web-site or a phoen call. And for most bybs and even reputable breeders this equates to what, a few dozen customers a year? Then think of how many of those would actually take the time to post something.

Sadly, its a losing battle, all we can hope for is someone searches and figures out that they shouldn't go to a craigslist seller, but that doesn't mean they will go to what is considered a "reputable" breeder according to this forum. They will find someone that cares a little more, has the markings of a good breeder, and most of all a price they are comfortable with.

In regards to shelters, its true, they are a hassel to deal with. I know that in my current living situation I wouldn't have been able to adopt (I live in a 1 br 3rd story apartment). No matter how much I would tell them that I am willing to put in the work, they have standards (to protect the dogs) and I wouldn't meet them. So why deal with it? An understanding breeder was more than happy to provide me with a great dog, at half the effort.


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

VomBlack said:


> Slightly OT but would you mind PMing the info of that breeder? Since you're in the same general area as I am I like to keep references of local breeders for when people ask.


Me too, if you don't mind.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> It seems finding a reputable breeder also includes finding out the breeders business practices. I find it unethical to take back a puppy with health problems and then resell that puppy for a high price without full disclosure.


I agree, ethics and business practices are very important too. Dena was such a wonderful dog that we DID go back to the same breeder to get Keefer, her half sibling. He's awesome too and we adore him to bits, but I no longer recommend their breeder and would not go back to her for reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of dogs that I've gotten from her. I really don't have a problem with any of our dealings with her either, but then I'm a pretty easy buyer in that I don't expect a lot from a breeder beyond getting a puppy I'm happy with. 

I know that Halo's breeder has and will take back dogs that don't work out for whatever reason, and I also know that she's found excellent new homes for the ones that were returned. I believe she does not charge a fee to the new owner either, and often the dogs go to someone who already has one of her dogs. For people in the area she will also board any of the dogs she's produced, free of charge, when people are out of town. In fact there was one owner recently, an older woman who had some health problems, and her pup was boarded by the breeder for several months while she was unable to care for it, during which time the breeder spent some time working on training and behavior stuff that the owner was struggling with. 

She's much more involved with her puppy buyers, is always available for questions and has a yahoo email list for puppy buyers and a Facebook page we are invited to join. There's even a separate Facebook page for pups out of Halo's sire Doc. I am not used to that level of breeder support, and I have to say that it is nice.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Personally, I would love to see all those who post on this forum that are breeders have some type of indication on their signature. 

That wouldn't mean they'd have to sell a pup to me, but that sure would give me a huge benefit as someone who is searching for a breeder and show enough interest to educate myself.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

Or your dog could* be possessed by a demon i suppose



Cassidy's Mom said:


> Where else could they have come from? Behavior problems can be either nature (genetic) or nurture (environment, ie - upbringing), or a combination of both.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The shelters I have rescued from were very friendly and/or non-hassle. I and my training friend are still amazed at the 20.00 dollar dogs we have titled and won with in Obedience. People always want my rescued dogs too! 

I have supported selected breeders whose accomplishments, goals and knowledge I would like to affirm and contribute too. Other than these special situations, I rescue and actually find real advantages to it.

I wouldn't necessarily feel good about recommending a breeders pups just because they are nice pups. Many "breeders" buy lines that are the result of real breeders years of study and work. Sure, they may pop out some nice dogs on the back of someone else's work. To recommend a person's pups is to recommend the breeder,IMO. 

Bad breeders can produce good pups. Good breeders can produce pups with problems. The individual production of a particular dog is not what I would look at.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

clarify this statement please? Im not being rude just trying to understand 

The individual production of a particular dog is not what I would look at.

that could be taken several ways?



Samba said:


> The shelters I have rescued from were very friendly and/or non-hassle. I and my training friend are still amazed at the 20.00 dollar dogs we have titled and won with in Obedience. People always want my rescued dogs too!
> 
> I have supported selected breeders whose accomplishments, goals and knowledge I would like to affirm and contribute too. Other than these special situations, I rescue and actually find real advantages to it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Backwoods, look at the rest of that paragraph, I think it clearly explains what she means - _a particular dog_ is not necessarily representative of what a breeder is producing overall. A breeder can't be judged by one individual dog they've produced, no matter how good or bad.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

ahh thats what i thought, thanks. For some reason it was like one of those words you spell right but it looks wrong no matter how many times you look at it.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

everyone has to bring in other lines - the key is keeping a focus on your ideal and type and knowing what is going to give you the type you are striving to produce. What lines mix well, what lines are more risky to mix, or what specific dogs will or will not bring to the table....I like to see certain dogs in the pedigrees that I bring together - I don't like other dogs - and I only like certain dogs to be there via certain sons or crossed certain ways! Fero with Xento for example - the B litter Salztalblick...Fero through G litter v d Kine or though Aly Vordersteinwald...which is Fero with Xento as well....every generation is built on the past generations and a wise breeder combines the best available genetics! Kennels which have 3 generations of their own kennel name with little accomplished are not doing anything special! Study the pedigrees of a breeders dogs and the litters he produces - look for patterns, and then you find someone who has a program - even if the kennel names of the breeding dogs are different. Look for someone who uses outside studs - not someone with 3-10 females all being bred heat after heat to the same 1 or 2 males....

I have a friend who breeds alot - in Europe - has bred some nice dogs - but the kennel has a revolving door. He breeds to top European dogs because they were at his back door! He has more knowledge in his head about dogs and bloodlines than most of the boards combined ....He will keep a male for a year or two and even has kept some females now with his kennel name....but no doubt about it - breeding dogs is a business for him. Good dogs for sure. But this is what I consider a commercial breeder. I will have him get me something again down the road as he is very knowledgeable and knows what to avoid - and always - calls it like he sees it because people over there are no where as kennel blind and personally invested in an individual dog as here.

Lee


----------



## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I so agree with BackwoodsBBQ. But where can the public get good information? Maybe clubs need to be more active in their communities? What better place to learn about breeds and sports and titles? And yes I think the price really does throw people off. I too have had people look at me when I tell them I spent $1500 for my dog. I do also follow it up with "ya I spent $400 on a pet store dog once and she was crap, get what you pay for" (you hope anyway).

I think the dog community needs to educate local pet shops on why it is not good to sell puppies.

Here is one for the breeders out there. When I bought my pup from my breeder she gave me a really nice booklet she put together on raising a pup. All from house breaking to crate training to ears standing up etc. It was the best thing I ever got!!!! So that is another way to help educate, I thought I knew allot but I learned so much from that booklet. Just my 2 cents


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> This is an idealistic view. There are not nearly enough purebred puppies in rescue to fill the demand for pet GSDs. And not enough pets being produced by serious breeders in the popular breeds. And some really great owners just can't justify spending $1000-2000 on a pet dog. That leaves pet and commercial breeders. The trade of is for more availablity and lower price (or in the case of pet stores the ability to make "low monthly payments"), they are generally getting a puppy from a much more unknown background. That is ok with some people though, I really don't see the demand for puppies from pet breeders ever going away.


 I was trying to say that if someone doesn't want to pay a lot of money for a dog, they can go the rescue route. I never said the demand for puppies from breeders will go away, and yes there are quite a few purebred puppies and dogs in rescues, it depends alot on area too. Where I am, we have gotten many GSDs of all ages from puppies to seniors. I understand people don't want a dog with unknown background. And there are few instances where purebred dogs with papers are turned into shelters and rescues.

I am just saying, if you don't want to spend a ton of money and just want a healthy happy pet, go through rescue or through a breed specific rescue. But there are instances where responsible breeders have puppies marked down, that is another alternative.

Personally, my previous dogs were from BYBs(I was 2 at the time we got them, so I didn't know a thing about BYBs.) and Molly is from a BYB/oops(I didn't have much say in that decision and stil had little knowledge of breeders.) We got Tanner from a shelter, that is very reputable and responsible and we get purebreds of all kinds. They provide all the health care, training and other necessities to adopt out dogs that people will enjoy and offer much more, Currently we have around 9 GSDS at my shelter. I wouldn't hesitate to get a dog from there. My next dog will either be from this shelter or a breeder depending who has what I am looking for. I am all for people rescuing from shelters and rescues and all fro people buying dogs from responsible breeders.


----------



## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

When I talk to people, people who haven't been on dog forums or talk with other dog people, and tell them about reputable breeders, one of the main reasons they won't go to a reputable breeder and go with the backyard breeder in the newspaper is price.

They figure why spend $500 on a white pomerian some fancy breeder bred when I can spend $200 and get a dog just as good.

It's like a lot of things people are uneducated about. When you don't know, then you just don't know. What doesn't help is when you figure out, you're highly discouraged because some dog people have bashed you to death for something you didn't know.

Now, I understand the OP. It doesn't make much sense. You did get a good dog, but now that you know, why would you go back or recommend that breeder? Now, if you don't know the breeder you got your dog from is a BYB, that's a different story.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

From my experience there are different types of dog owners, those who will only rescue, those who will only buy puppies from breeders (be it a byb or a reputable one), and those who have gone through the **** of owning a puppy once and therefore will only rescue older dogs lol. As for purebred dogs at shelters, there are a ton, and puppies usually go fast, but it does kind of depend on the area. Also shelters really look into your living situation, the one's I've talked to really don't care about what YOU have to say about yourself as a pet owner, they have standards and if you don't meet them well then too bad.

I admit, that to a shelter I look like a big risk, small apartment, first time dog owner, but that is the reason that people go to the other places. They don't ask those kinds of questions, should they? Probably, but a pet store would go out of business pretty quick if it ran back ground checks on every potential customer.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

Just for instance wont name which but this is pretty standard of most rescues you will fin in the midwest. I have obtained bank loans with far less information. This is insane im all for placing with a proper good home but holy **** we are not transferring nitroglycerin or radio active waste here.

all pertinent information has been removed 

Adoptive families should:

* Reside in Indiana, Ohio or Kentucky
* Have no children under the age of 8*
* Complete the entire adoption application - leaving blanks only delays the application process
* Upon application approval, be available for and pass a home visit

*As a general guideline, ***** and most other rescues do not place ***** into families with children under 8 years old due to young children being unable to understand appropriate **** interaction and not fully knowing a ***** history. This policy is in both the best interests of the children and our ****.

Adoption Fees**:

* 2 years and under - $650.00
* 3-5 years - $ 550.00
* 5-6 years - $450.00
* 7 and up - $350.00 or less

***takes into consideration if a **** has expensive monthly medications for life or is a special needs **** before determining their final adoption fee. All adoption fees go directly into **** rescue fund to pay for health care and rescue expenses.


First Name:

*Last Name:

*Age:

Co-Applicant First Name:

Co-Applicant Last Name:

Co-Applicant Age:

*Street Address (Not a PO Box):

*City:

*State:

*Zip Code:

*Home Phone:

Cell Phone:

*Email:

Please list all household members other than the applicants:

Name: Age: Relationship:

Name: Age: Relationship:

Name: Age: Relationship:

Name: Age: Relationship:

Name: Age: Relationship:

Name: Age: Relationship:

*Distance willing to travel to pick up an adopted ******:

Miles Hours

*What is the largest city near your home or in what area of the state do you live? (Example: Indianapolis or Central)

Employment Information

*Occupation:

*Employer:

*Employer Address:

*Employer City:

*Employer State:

*Employer Zip Code:

*Employer Phone Ext:

Co-Applicant Occupation:

Co-Applicant Employer:

Co-Applicant Employer Address:

Co-Applicant Employer City:

Co-Applicant State:

Co-Applicant Employer Zip Code:

Co-Applicant Employer Phone Ext:

Dwelling Information

*Residence: Own Rent

*Years at Residence:

Note: If you rent, the landlord contact information is required. ***, Inc. must contact your landlord to verity if pets are allowed.

Landlord Name:

Landlord Phone:

*Do children visit your home? Yes No

If yes, please list the visiting children, their ages and visiting frequency.

*Are you willing to supervise the ****** at all times with children under the age of 10? Yes No

*Do you have a fenced yard? Yes No

If yes, please answer the following:

Does the fence fully enclose the yard? Yes No

Fence Type:

Fence Height:

*How would the **** be exercised, how often, and who would supervise the ****** while outdoors?

*Does your home have stairs that the ****** would have to go up and down?
Yes No

If yes, please describe all stairs involved.

*Do you have a swimming pool, hot tub, pond (including ornamental ponds), lake, river, or any other body of water in or near your residence? Yes No

If yes, is there a secure fence to keep the ****** away from the water hazard?
Yes No

*Is your home air-conditioned? Yes No

If yes, please specify type: Central Room

*Is your car air-conditioned? Yes No

*Where would the ******* be kept during the day?

*Where would the ****** be kept during the night?

*Who would be responsible for the care of the ******?

*Is anyone in the household allergic to dogs? Yes No

*Are all members of the household in favor of adopting a rescue ******?
Yes No

Expectations for a Rescued ******

*Why does your family wish to adopt a rescue ******?

*What age rescue ****** would your family be willing to accept?
Please note, puppies rarely come into rescue.

Puppy Only Up to 3 years Up to 6 years Any age, I love all *****!

*Must the ****** be good with children? Yes No

*Must the ****** get along with other pets in your household and/or with visiting pets? Yes No

If yes, what types of pets? Birds Cats Dogs Other

*Would your family be willing to accept a ****** requiring additional care?
Please note, that ALL ******s require some daily care. Yes No

If yes, what level of care would your family be comfortable providing?
Daily Medication
Multiple Daily Medications
Special Food
House-training Issues
Mobility or Walking Issues
Behavior Issues
Deafness
Blindness
Incontinence
Seizure Disorder
Other Issues

Family Lifestyle

*What five words would best describe your family?

*Please describe any changes your family expects in your household in the new few years. Example - New children, employment changes, moving, etc.)

*How soon would your family be ready to adopt a rescue ******?
Immediately Next 3 months Next 6 months More than 6 months

*Are any household members at home during the day time?
All day Most of the day Sometimes Seldom

Are any household members involved in any:
*Pet Store Operation Yes No
*Commercial Animal Breeding Operation Yes No
*Purchasing animals for resale activities? Yes No

*Have any household members ever been convicted of cruelty to animals?
Yes No

*Have any household members ever been suspended from a pure-bred animal association? Yes No

Current and Past Pets

*Has your family every owned a ******? Yes No

*Does your family currently own any dogs? Yes No

*Does your family currently own any cats? Yes No

Please list ALL pets (cats, dogs and others) that live in your household or have lived in your household during the past 5 years. If more room is required, please use the additional comment section.

Pet Name:
Pet Breed or Type:
 Pet Age:
Pet Sex:
Where is the pet now?

Pet Name:
Pet Breed or Type:
Pet Age:
Pet Sex:
Where is the pet now?

Pet Name:
Pet Breed or Type:
Pet Age:
Pet Sex:
Where is the pet now?

Pet Name:
Pet Breed or Type:
Pet Age:
Pet Sex:
Where is the pet now?

Pet Name:
Pet Breed or Type:
Pet Age:
Pet Sex:
Where is the pet now?

Pet Name:
Pet Breed or Type:
Pet Age:
Pet Sex:
Where is the pet now?

*Has your family ever given a pet to a rescue organization or animal shelter?
Yes No

If yes, please describe the circumstances:

*Has your family ever owned a pet that has bitten someone? Yes No

If yes, please describe the circumstances:

Do all of your family's current pets get along well with other animals? Yes No

If no, please explain:

Do all of your family's pets receive regular veterinary care and are up-to-date on vaccinations? Yes No

What heartworm preventative does your family use?

If your family has adopted a rescue animal before, please list the type of animal, animal name, and contact information for the rescue:

Current Veterinarian Name:

Veterinarian Address:

Veterinarian City:

Veterinarian State:

Veterinarian Zip Code:

Veterinarian Phone:

Years your family's pets have been patients:

*References:
List the names and phone numbers of two people who are not members of your household that can verify your family's ability to take proper care of a rescue ******.

*Name:

*Relationship:

*Years Known:

*Contact Info:

*Name:

*Relationship:

*Years known:

*Contact Info:

Pet Care Philosophy

*What type of behavior in a ****** would make your family not want to adopt him or her?

*How would your family correct any behavior problems that may arise?

*Does your family understand that rescued ******s may have house-training issues, especially at first?
Yes No

*Is your family familiar with common ****** health problems? Yes No

*How much does your family expect to pay per year to take care of a ******?

*Who will care for the ****** during vacations and overnight trips?

*Can someone else in the household provide daily care when the primary caregiver is away? Yes No

*Does your family have an emergency plan to provide care for your pets if your family has to leave town suddenly?
Yes No

If yes, please describe your family's emergency plan:

*What does your family feel is the proper use of crates and cages

Agreements and Understandings

*Can all household members travel to the ****** ****** Rescue, Inc. location to meet the prospective new ****** family member? Yes No

*Is your family willing to take responsibility for the ****** for its lifetime?
Yes No

*Does your family agree to having an ****** ****** Rescue, Inc. volunteer inspect your home before and after an adoption is completed? Yes No

*All ******s adopted from ****** ****** Rescue, Inc. will be spayed or neutered before placement. Does your family have any questions or reservations about this policy? Yes No

If yes, please explain your family's questions or reservations:

Additional Comments:

I understand that ******s placed by the ****** ****** Rescue, Inc. have been acquired, fed and boarded; have received necessary medical care and vaccinations; and have been tested to be free of heartworms and contagious disease at the expense of ******, Inc.'s volunteers, who receive financial reimbursement for expenses only through donations.

I understand that the adoption fee goes into the rescue fund help provide the spaying/neutering and veterinary care of current and/or future rescued ******s. The specific adoption amount is determined based on the individual ******’s age, health, and rehabilitation requirements.

I understand that if, for any reason, I can no longer care for or keep the ******, I must return the ****** directly to Indiana ****** Rescue, Inc. and I will sign all necessary paperwork for the surrender of the ******.

I have answered all the above questions truthfully and to the best of my knowledge.

I have read a copy of the ****** Club of America Rescue Network Adoption Contract, understand the contract and agree to abide by the contracts terms should a ****** be available for placement in my home.

By clicking on the submit button, you are agreeing to all of the conditions that apply to this application.


----------



## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Yes and so people look at the fee and the application process then decide for the same money they will go to the puppy mill. They then get a crappy dog and decide to guess what drop it off at the shelter!

I understand why rescues have this process but I often think it may hurt them more than help.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Woah, those are some pretty high adoption fees there! I've never seen them that high before. $250 is probably the average...no matter what the age of the dog.


----------



## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

Same here, I've never seen such high adoption fees. Certainly seems as if it would thin out the adoption herd.


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

BackwoodsBBQ, that indeed was a very comprehensive questionnaire! But I can't say I object to any of the questions on there. 

Full disclosure: I would have been in trouble with the body of water question since we have an unfenced pond on our property, and our yard is not completely fenced in (although the dogs have a fenced in play area).

Still, having so many conditions and having to spend an hour or two filling out an application WOULD discourage potential adopters from going through a rescue. But anyone can go to a shelter and face way fewer restrictions. So it's not like that's the only option out there for someone who wants a dog that doesn't come from a breeder or pet store.

And I just noticed the prices. Yes those are very high.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> Because *so many people who want a GSD do NOT KNOW what a GSD really is*....the watered down temperament, the lack of ability to do anything resembling work, is not an issue...they want a brown (red/tan/Braun on all SV papers) dog with a black saddle who has pointy ears and looks like their conception of Rin Tin Tin. They don't care about the integrity of the breed!!! They don't even KNOW what the breed is supposed to be and they get the look in a dog who stays in their house and yard and they are happy with that. Like the guys who would put snazzy fiberglass Ferrari style bodies on top of Volkswagens!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Lee


:thumbup: exactly!

When I see someone say their dog has a great temperament I think compared to what? Because their dog does not have correct temperament for its breed. Sage has decent temperament. Great pet but in no way is it a correct GSD temperament.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

According to whoever or breed standard x what if i want a german shepard with a teddy bear personality, just like it was the right for them to be developed with herding instincts its my right to breed them soft tempered. Its all according to what the owner, wants. Whoever can keep "their" or what they think the integrity of the breed is,but the temperament of breed x has changed and evolved over so many years, 
they were made to suit man in the first place who is it to say that cant be changed or developed for for people that want that also? Due to pedigree im sure that the standard temperament of a gsd will always remain and can be maintained for those that want that. A vast majority wait no more than they were number 2 last year of gsd are pets way more than working/show dogs. Its like saying no you cant make this kind of orange its too citrusy sp? because thats not the integrity of what i think an orange is. 


We are playing with genetics and nature here real close to a dangerous line anyway, we've taken natural selection out of the process in our selfish interest. Different breeds genetics only differ by 1.1% give or take .2 % dont forget. 

Correct temperament is all relevant to what a group of people said dog x should be like. What they thought. People take what the akc or take your pick of organizations say it should be like, but that doesnt bob, jane sam, akc, sch, kkl, or anyone right. Makes it right for the people that want that just not right for everyone.

There is no one correct temperament!! just what someone thought it should be for them. 

Im not saying anyone is wrong im saying everyone is wrong and right

Just wish we could give the pooches a voice here, that would be one conversation i would love to hear.





sagelfn said:


> :thumbup: exactly!
> 
> When I see someone say their dog has a great temperament I think compared to what? Because their dog does not have correct temperament for its breed. Sage has decent temperament. Great pet but in no way is it a correct GSD temperament.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

That's my point im not necessarily saying i disagree with any of the questions though some are a little, prying just that, Most people who just want a companion animal are going to look at that and go uhh dont think so. Hence one more person to the byb. 

Fact 1 1 in 4 dogs/cats will not stay with their original family. 
Fact 2 people will buy pets, be it rescue, shelter, good breeder or bad breeder. 
Fact 3 animal behavior is the number one reason for surrendered, dumped, given up animals. 

As ive said before Education Education Education!!! 

I could show you prices from several rescues in the area and they are on par with that. give or take 100$.

I could list sites with numbers but, think thats against the rules here.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Ugh--if you don't like the temperament and personality that is the BREED STANDARD...get another breed!


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

I do like the breed standard personally but its not your right to say someone cant change a temperament or a breed to suit them. That's how all breeds originated.



GSDElsa said:


> Ugh--if you don't like the temperament and personality that is the BREED STANDARD...get another breed!



also this has gotten way off topic sorry


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

They can change it, but then it's not the dog breed in question.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

exactly, but see there are already different temperaments in all dog breeds, so in all litters, from little variation to extreme, 

To say an native American isn't a native American because he doesn't drink like a fish howl at the moon and do a rain dance isnt right.

To say a Caucasian isn't a Caucasian because he doesn't work a 9-5 and go to church on sunday and play golf isn't right. 

Take no offense to that but, im just trying to illustrate a point to say someone or something isn't that because it doesn't act like you think it should is not right. All living creatures are entitled to act how they want. Not just within certain parameters.



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> They can change it, but then it's not the dog breed in question.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)




----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Pups in a litter are not all the same. Some have more drive, some are less energetic, etc..

But, thanks to a breed standard only the dogs breedworthy are bred. Thats why not every dog with a great pedigree and titles is bred. Breed standards. Thats why titling is so important. Does the dog meet the standard.

Breed standard is what keeps a GSD a GSD and not a Golden.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Think of it this way - 

20# Chihuahua (not overweight - just that big)
Lab that won't swim
Super friendly kissy Chow Chow

Those don't make sense if you know what the breed is supposed to be like or do. 

Breeding is artificial. 

Mixes are an example of what you are talking about - but still within the parameters of some breed, somewhere, at sometime in their past (maybe way far away past). 

I think. ??? I could be wrong!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

reputable breeders -- what about the BIG name show kennels which forced the need for DNA because of misrepresentation. -- In Germany -- 
where there is money there is corruption.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

So what happened over there???



carmspack said:


> reputable breeders -- what about the BIG name show kennels which forced the need for DNA because of misrepresentation. -- In Germany --
> where there is money there is corruption.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I do not want this thread to turn into line bashing. There are plenty of showlines with working ability and plenty of working lines with weak nerves. Big kennel name does not always mean reputable.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

we're not talking about ability or nerves. We are talking about straight ethics . 
That is exactly the point --- big kennel name does not always mean reputable.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Greed, politics, and money can/will ruin anything. The discourse within the German shepherd standard is as old as the breed itself. The "founding" father of the breed ruled with a iron fist. The farmers/breeders that produced the herding/shepherd dogs were over-ruled and their input minimized. Max wanted to crate "his" dog - his way; so the "real" dog people - the farmers who bred dogs to work - took their knowledge and their dogs and went home. If it weren't for the breeders of working farm dogs i.e. Krone Kennels, Max's dog would of never been created. (Max was not a very successful breeder. He even moved to Bavaria so he could be closer to the best breeders).
So we have a breed - the German shepherd dog - that is under girded by at least 3 different bloodlines - and is suppose to conform to one standard. A standard originally written by a rich, spoiled, head-strong, discharged military man that saw a dog herding sheep in pasture and liked what he saw. Three bloodlines + a novice dog person -> the Standard for German shepherds. Interesting.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

So, were would we be today without the life work of the "founder".


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Granted I know nothing in comparision to you Doc, this is the way I look at it

Max knew what he wanted but did not know how to create it. So he had people with the know how do it for him. I assume that in the process he learned a great deal. End result the dog he invisioned the GSD. Standard was set to keep the breed what he invisioned. He must have done it right since the GSD is still the most widely used working dog dispite people not following the standard.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

BackwoodsBBQ said:


> According to whoever or breed standard x what if i want a german shepard with a teddy bear personality, just like it was the right for them to be developed with herding instincts its my right to breed them soft tempered. Its all according to what the owner, wants. Whoever can keep "their" or what they think the integrity of the breed is,but the temperament of breed x has changed and evolved over so many years, they were made to suit man in the first place who is it to say that cant be changed or developed for for people that want that also? Due to pedigree im sure that the standard temperament of a gsd will always remain and can be maintained for those that want that. A vast majority wait no more than they were number 2 last year of gsd are pets way more than working/show dogs. Its like saying no you cant make this kind of orange its too citrusy sp? because thats not the integrity of what i think an orange is.
> 
> 
> We are playing with genetics and nature here real close to a dangerous line anyway, we've taken natural selection out of the process in our selfish interest. Different breeds genetics only differ by 1.1% give or take .2 % dont forget.
> ...


WRONG

The breed standard - the koermeister - the PARENT CLUB of the breed DEFINES the correct temperament. It is the LACK of credentials, the lack of requirements of the GSDCA and the AKC that has ALLOWED the GSD as it is intended by the PARENT CLUB OF THE BREED - that club in GERMANY - the HOME of the breed! - to be bred into near oblivion and into a travesty!!! Because we have no requirements in this country - because we have no regulations requiring temperament and character tests - anyone is allowed to breed any kind of pseudo GSD they want to in this country. Anyone can breed litter after litter that is fodder for pet stores, for flea markets, for $200 quick buck litters for some extra cash....and from there to throwaways and shelters with the lucky ones getting into rescues!

How hard is it to understand that the breed is defined by the Mother club in the country of origin???? Shilohs are not GSDs, Royal Shepherds are not GSD - and sorry people - blue, liver and whites are not within Standard. Everyone professes to love the GSD - but they have some skewed idea that they can remake it into something other than what it should be and that is just fine because this is America and we can do what we want....and that is why shelters are full and 10s of 1000s of dogs and cats are KILLED every year!!!!

You want a GSD - but you don't want anything but a living hollowed out look alike!

sheesh - it is not rocket science!


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

if your going to attack someone maybe do it in a pm this thread has taken a different turn.

But to address this for the last time dna still says its a gsd, just like if your in a bad mood your dna still says your you, didnt change didnt make you inhuman or change your race. If you would have read back a bit several times i have said i like the gsd standard! I have a working lines gsd, so please before you post make sure you understand what has been said.



wolfstraum said:


> WRONG
> 
> The breed standard - the koermeister - the PARENT CLUB of the breed DEFINES the correct temperament. It is the LACK of credentials, the lack of requirements of the GSDCA and the AKC that has ALLOWED the GSD as it is intended by the PARENT CLUB OF THE BREED - that club in GERMANY - the HOME of the breed! - to be bred into near oblivion and into a travesty!!! Because we have no requirements in this country - because we have no regulations requiring temperament and character tests - anyone is allowed to breed any kind of pseudo GSD they want to in this country. Anyone can breed litter after litter that is fodder for pet stores, for flea markets, for $200 quick buck litters for some extra cash....and from there to throwaways and shelters with the lucky ones getting into rescues!
> 
> ...


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I have a 10 year old GSD that is my heart dog (as the term is here). The sweetest, most loving boy in the world. He is great with my kids, neighbors, anyone he meets on the street. I bought him from a BYB in Georgia for about $250. I love him very much and I am thankful every day that I have him.
Now, here is the downside.....
If a stranger broke into my house, he would hide under my bed. No protective instinct whatsoever. His nerves with any type of noise are crap. He will start shaking and try to bolt and hide. I cannot bathe him. He is scared to death of getting a bath. I have to take him in to have it done. He has several genetic issues due to indescriminate back yard breeding. He has bilateral hip displaysia, djd in both elbows, recently diagnosed with spondylosis, weak hocks that wobble, chronic SIBO, and is getting retested for his cTLI levels very soon. Last time they were at the extreme bottom edge of normal. His liver values on labs are through the roof but we cannot figure out why. We have had more ER visits with him than both of my skin children combined. My family has spent 10's of thousands of dollars in vet bills.
Do I blame his breeder? Yes, very much, for breeding for a profit and not testing any of their breeding dogs. Guess what? They are still breeding the same "pet" lines. Who's fault is that? Mine and the countless others who have supported them by buying these pups. I don't even want to guess how many of his brothers/sisters/cousins have ended up euthanized at a shelter or by the vet because the owners didn't think spending the money was worth it to save the dog. Or because they have weak nerves, or possibly temperment problems.
When my husband and I decided we were going to get a new puppy, my hubby said "check the newspaper". I asked him if he was out of his mind. I told him we were spending money now on proven breeders with known lines. He argued and said he didn't want to spend thousands for a "show" dog. I told him we weren't getting a "show" dog, we were getting a working dog. I also told him we were spending the money for the pup. He wanted to know why I was so stuck on it. I pointed at my older GSD and said "that's why". We spend good money now and lower the risk or we pay less money now and thousands more later. We ended up paying $1200 for my brat pup and my husband is so thankful now. She is healthier than my old man ever was at this age and is everything we could have asked for and more.
If anyone asks me for a referral, I tell them to do their homework and what you spend now makes a huge difference in the future.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

BackwoodsBBQ said:


> But to address this for the last time dna still says its a gsd


You're right it is still a GSD even if it doesn't fit the standard. No one is debating that. BUT, should that dog, even if it IS a GSD be bred?NNNNOOOOO! Because it doesn't fit the standard.


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

hey lets create a thread in a appropriate forum to debate this? Ive got a friend from the American college of veterinary behaviorists, that's very interested in this debate.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why is this an inappropriate forum? And why can't your friend debate here?


----------



## BackwoodsBBQ (Feb 18, 2011)

this got way off topic and i meant technically sub forum, and if this is fine ok i was just trying to be courteous to the op.



Jax08 said:


> Why is this an inappropriate forum? And why can't your friend debate here?


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I think it fits my OP. The disagreement is likely another reason people continue supporting non reputable breeders. As long as people continue to follow rules and not get the thread locked its all good


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Tell your friend to come online here. This is the post for the current discussion.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

BackwoodsBBQ said:


> if your going to attack someone maybe do it in a pm this thread has taken a different turn.
> 
> But to address this for the last time dna still says its a gsd, just like if your in a bad mood your dna still says your you, didnt change didnt make you inhuman or change your race. If you would have read back a bit several times i have said i like the gsd standard! I have a working lines gsd, so please before you post make sure you understand what has been said.



No way, no how, no conceivable suggestion of a personal attack. Using you is a collective comment - not a personal attack. This is pure frustration at the fact that the concept of defining the breed just seems so inconsequential to so many people. That a statment was made that anyone has the "RIGHT" to change the character of the breed just because they feel like it. That people profess to love this breed but then ignore what it is supposed to be just because they want a pet with no drive, no aggression - they want a poodle or a collie in a GSD costume!

Has nothing to do with DNA saying it is still a GSD when bred without regard to standard - there are many many many poorly bred dogs of every breed here in the US because people are greedy, stupid or just don't care. 

Lee


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hopefully when we know better, we do better. 

Many of us got our first dog or even maybe a few dogs from less than scrupulous sources. My first dog a working line GSD was raised in a garage and in a yard where they hid under a junk car. I paid $150 for him and thought it was a good price. He was the first and only one to come to me, and his mother had floppy ears, as did Frodo. 

Would I get another dog from this guy or recommend him -- no way. But I blame my self for the behavior issues I had with him. 

When we understand that giving even $150 to a BYB or buying a puppy from a pet store for half price will encourage more litters to be bred by these people, we can then determine whether or not we can KNOWINGLY support them and live with it. 

Ignorance is bliss. When you do not know about puppy mills housing maybe 1000 dog in tiny filthy cages to produce puppies for pet stores. We can walk in and purchase a puppy from them without feeling slimy. But when we KNOW and we do it anyway, we are as guilty as the buggers that own the breeding stock.

BYBs are a whole lot different from puppy mills. For the most part, the love and care about their dogs. Maybe they do not feed five star foods, and maybe they do not get titles, and maybe they do not do health screenings. But their dogs live a pretty good life, and are not living encased in a fecies filled cage until they stop producing and are euthanized. 

But those of us who care about the breed, do not want to encourage even BYBs to continue to produce pet GSDs. Yes there is a market for pet GSDs. But a pet GSD NEEDS to be bred with health and temperament in mind. There is simply no excuse to encourage people to put two available dogs together to produce a litter of puppies. 

There is a minimum standard that we should all decide on. Maybe not ofas but at least pre-lims. Maybe not schutzhund, but at least an AKC title. 

I think people are way too concerned about whether or not a breeder profits, and not as concerned with a breeders overall goals in putting this bitch together with this dog. We are too concerned with how many or how few dogs a breeder is caring for, and not as concerned with what the breeder DOES with the dogs they have. 

We have too many red flags, and not enough stick-to-our guns about the most important stuff.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And from doing home checks that frazzle my OWN nerves (which are weak, admittedly) a pet dog needs to have every ounce of nerve strength and good health they can, just to live successfully with people.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfstraum said:


> No way, no how, no conceivable suggestion of a personal attack. Using you is a collective comment - not a personal attack. This is pure frustration at the fact that the concept of defining the breed just seems so inconsequential to so many people. That a statment was made that anyone has the "RIGHT" to change the character of the breed just because they feel like it. That people profess to love this breed but then ignore what it is supposed to be just because they want a pet with no drive, no aggression - they want a poodle or a collie in a GSD costume!
> 
> Has nothing to do with DNA saying it is still a GSD when bred without regard to standard - there are many many many poorly bred dogs of every breed here in the US because people are greedy, stupid or just don't care.
> 
> Lee


People often say that you should only breed if you are breeding to improve the breed. Improving the breed is changing the breed to match better with your ideal for the breed. We have a standard and we should breed to maintain the breed to that standard. However, the standard can be interpreted in many ways. Looking at the AKC standard, temperament section, there is no mention of schutzhund. Some figure that the only way to prove temperament is a schutzhund title. Others see it a little differently, and may still be striving to maintain the standard.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I don't like the phrase "improving the breed" as we strive to breed to the ideal of hte standard.....and produce dogs that meet that standard as closely as possible while maintaining or improving the quality of the breeding pair. Beside being a fun thing to do, and a sport, Schutzhund (now called VPG.) was developed as a BREEDING TEST. The BH is a temperament test, a preliminary test. There are several OTHER criteria besides the BH and VPG which are to be attained prior to breeding by the SV requirements. The AD, hips and elbow certification, a conformation critique and rating, a dental exam, and a working test- either the VPG or HGH - then a Koer for breeding rights. The SV is the parent club of the breed, and THAT is truely the breed standard. If you don't follow the criteria and breed dogs anyway - guess what - NO pink papered registration (a listing is done which is upgradeable once criteria are met tho!) 

Although instructed to in the late 90's at a WUSV meeting in Solvenia (??), the GSDCA has not yet conformed the breedings and their standard in line with the SV standard which is the same worldwide - called the FCI standard. this is historical fact. It is in the minutes of the meeting. Lets not even go into ASL vs European dogs....sigh....

It is NOT just GSDs that are bred to a set criteria in Europe - every breed in Germany has the same type of requirements. A family I know from the barn where my horse is kept is from Germany - they have a Viszla - same basic breeding requirements. A friend of mine is LE and in training right now with 2 bomb dogs - one is a German bred Shorthaired Pointer of all things! And the dog is amazing he says - nothing like the American GSPs.....


Lee


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> I don't like the phrase "improving the breed" as we strive to breed to the ideal of hte standard.....and produce dogs that meet that standard as closely as possible while maintaining or improving the quality of the breeding pair. Beside being a fun thing to do, and a sport, Schutzhund (now called VPG.) was developed as a BREEDING TEST. The BH is a temperament test, a preliminary test. There are several OTHER criteria besides the BH and VPG which are to be attained prior to breeding by the SV requirements. The AD, hips and elbow certification, a conformation critique and rating, a dental exam, and a working test- either the VPG or HGH - then a Koer for breeding rights. The SV is the parent club of the breed, and THAT is truely the breed standard. If you don't follow the criteria and breed dogs anyway - guess what - NO pink papered registration (a listing is done which is upgradeable once criteria are met tho!)
> 
> Although instructed to in the late 90's at a WUSV meeting in Solvenia (??), the GSDCA has not yet conformed the breedings and their standard in line with the SV standard which is the same worldwide - called the FCI standard. this is historical fact. It is in the minutes of the meeting. Lets not even go into ASL vs European dogs....sigh....
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
I'm not a breeder but I love this breed. My belief is pretty much the same as Lee's. So thank you Lee for explaining it better than I can.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfstraum said:


> I don't like the phrase "improving the breed" as we strive to breed to the ideal of hte standard.....and produce dogs that meet that standard as closely as possible while maintaining or improving the quality of the breeding pair. Beside being a fun thing to do, and a sport, Schutzhund (now called VPG.) was developed as a BREEDING TEST. The BH is a temperament test, a preliminary test. There are several OTHER criteria besides the BH and VPG which are to be attained prior to breeding by the SV requirements. The AD, hips and elbow certification, a conformation critique and rating, a dental exam, and a working test- either the VPG or HGH - then a Koer for breeding rights. The SV is the parent club of the breed, and THAT is truely the breed standard. If you don't follow the criteria and breed dogs anyway - guess what - NO pink papered registration (a listing is done which is upgradeable once criteria are met tho!)
> 
> Although instructed to in the late 90's at a WUSV meeting in Solvenia (??), the GSDCA has not yet conformed the breedings and their standard in line with the SV standard which is the same worldwide - called the FCI standard. this is historical fact. It is in the minutes of the meeting. Lets not even go into ASL vs European dogs....sigh....
> 
> ...


And yet, though German Showline dogs may have all of these requirements met, people with other lines diss them anyway, saying the titles are from midnight trials, etc. I like the German method of controlling breedings, and there is even more than what you have mentioned, if a dog has been used too much, they will require that the dog be removed from the breeding pool for a number of months. Their pedigrees, not only tell you the names, titles, colors, hip status, but also something about the conformation of the dogs behind your dog. Too bad they are in German and I do not read German.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

selzer said:


> And yet, though German Showline dogs may have all of these requirements met, people with other lines diss them anyway, saying the titles are from midnight trials, etc. I like the German method of controlling breedings, and there is even more than what you have mentioned, if a dog has been used too much, they will require that the dog be removed from the breeding pool for a number of months. Their pedigrees, not only tell you the names, titles, colors, hip status, but also something about the conformation of the dogs behind your dog. Too bad they are in German and I do not read German.


Google translate is a wonderful tool.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I saw a GSD today, from "champion world class showlines" and the back was so roached it hurt me. Now this dog wasn't from a BYB but a big name kennel of showlines that charges big bucks...I'll take my ugly working line dog over that look any day.
I agree with Lee's post completely!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought we were trying not to diss the different lines in this post, but sometimes it is just too tempting...


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think all showlines have that roach...it is the breeding that makes it so...that large kennel is not doing the breed any favors, so it goes with what you are posting and what Lee posted. The breed standard can be interpreted and unfortunately some think AKC is where its at and some think SV...we all interpret the standard differently...that was my point.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Did backwoodsBBQ start a new thread I missed or they just took off for the night?


----------



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

wolfstraum said:


> I don't like the phrase "improving the breed" as we strive to breed to the ideal of hte standard.....and produce dogs that meet that standard as closely as possible while maintaining or improving the quality of the breeding pair.


I wholeheartedly agree. 

It is such a mindset that often leads to an almost inevitable fall towards the extremes. What we have before us is never good enough, and thus we must "improve" upon it. And how do we improve prey drive? Sharpness? A powerful gait? Reach? More of it, of course! And more is never enough if we stubbornly insist on "improving" the breed. 

I agree that education is key... but when it comes to eschewing "BYBs" and recommending "reputable breeders", who ARE the "BYBs" and who are the "reputable" breeders?? How can we define them?


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The definition of reputable and BYB breeder is also part of the problem, IMO. Do you ever see any BYB dogs that are Law Enforcement dog, SAR, or out really doing farm or herding work. Do you ever see dogs from "reputable" kennels that are so skittish or nervy they need thorazine? People likes and dislikes have no place in good breeding, in my opinion. I have often seen a BYB who has a dog that they recognize that the dog is lacking in some areas try to find a dog that would compensate this defect in breeding their dog. Though breeding is more complicated than that, yet their intent is correct,imo. I know many many many reputable kennels that have glaring weaknesses in their dogs(often temperament) make no effort to breed to offset or correct these deficiences, and will even turn up there noses to types of dogs that is so needed to improve their weaknesses. Do you think I respect these breeders????? I would take a dog from a BYB anyday before I help perpetuate this garbage. Its all in the eyes of the breeder and their INTENT for the breed.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know of a breeder that breeds good sound, strong dogs, and many here would consider him a BYB. 
I would too, if I didn't know that he knows much about lines and pedigrees and doing proper breeding matches.
On first look, who would know that without knowing him and his program?
And no, he doesn't have a website.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Like everything else, it comes down to the knowledge and ethics of the breeder, whether big or small.
That is why educating ourselves as to what to look for (past the big kennel name), is so important in being able to make a good choice.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I know of a breeder that breeds good sound, strong dogs, and many here would consider him a BYB.
> I would too, if I didn't know that he knows much about lines and pedigrees and doing proper breeding matches.
> On first look, who would know that without knowing him and his program?
> And no, he doesn't have a website.


Ten minutes talking bloodlines with him? Assuming we are thinking of the same person?


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> Granted I know nothing in comparision to you Doc, this is the way I look at it
> 
> Max knew what he wanted but did not know how to create it. So he had people with the know how do it for him. I assume that in the process he learned a great deal. End result the dog he invisioned the GSD. Standard was set to keep the breed what he invisioned. He must have done it right since the GSD is still the most widely used working dog dispite people not following the standard.


What I know isn't the point of this post.

From a genetic perspective, when you combine genes from 3 very different "shepherd/herding" dogs - as was done during the creation of the GSD - you set up a situation where there is perhaps millions if not billions of possible genetic combinations when these dogs were bred. And since the genetics are the same today (unless breeders have slipped another gene pool into the mix from a different bred) as they were in Max's day, it shouldn't be any surprise that there is a wide range of variation in the size, temperament, color, anything that is dictated by genetics in the GSD of today. 
Add to that "breeders" preferances, judges/show influences, monetary payoffs, greed, politics, all the "environmental" influences and we end up with the variation we have today. Also, and I know this ruffles a lot of feathers, add Max's "idea" (personal preferances - remember he wasn't a breeder or wasn't a farmer) when the original Standard was crafted to the mix and the "ideal" blueprint of a GSD is next to impossible to create IMO. 
Throw in the fact that there are several Standards around the world and the original Standard has been re-writen numerous times (why?) and we (breeders, owners, lovers of the breed) have a heck of mess.
As a lover of this bred first (I owned German shepherds for 20 years before I became a breeder) and now a breeder, I think too much emphasis is placed on how a dog looks physically rather than its nerve, temperament, health, and intestinal fortitude. JMO


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Everyone has his/her own paradigm, the result of which is constant disagreement.
Something that makes sense to one person is nonsense to another. Trying to get someone to see your point of view is a waste of time. <<< --- my point of view.


----------



## plusdoegsd (Nov 15, 2010)

whoa too deep for me very political.......lol lighten up love your dogs....lol


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think the problem solely lies with breeders. People make their own decisions, and the temperment tests we have today aren't always what peoplea are looking for. The fact that a breeder advertises his dog is Schz3 and has produced a lot of K9s is most certainly off putting to many people that want a German Shepherd as a family dog (and please none of that get another breed thing). It clearly states in the temperment standard that this dog is capable of being a companion. And I know that even the "high drive" dogs produce pet quality pets, but for some people its scary to think that their dog might be prone to biting and quite dangerous. Others on the other hand think its the greatest thing since sliced bread and will run around telling everyone the lines their dog came from.

I met a GSD once, his owners wanted to/needed to train him as a seeing eye dog. Well he was from a very reputable breeder, who had proven that his dogs can do the work. They purchased this pup for way more than what most of us consider a fair price for a dog, and planned on training him as a service dog. Well he grew up, and has the drive of a k9. I've seen him get into scuffles over tennis balls! So this breeder, proved his dogs are breed worthy, but they aren't for everyone. Clearly they needed another breeding pair for what they wanted to do.

So the whole breedworthy test is now in question. Schutzhund took a great step in trying to make a temperment test, but now that times have changed its probably time to update, but to what?


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

martemchik said:


> I don't think the problem solely lies with breeders. People make their own decisions, and the temperment tests we have today aren't always what peoplea are looking for. The fact that a breeder advertises his dog is Schz3 and has produced a lot of K9s is most certainly off putting to many people that want a German Shepherd as a family dog (and please none of that get another breed thing). It clearly states in the temperment standard that this dog is capable of being a companion. And I know that even the "high drive" dogs produce pet quality pets, but for some people its scary to think that their dog might be prone to biting and quite dangerous. Others on the other hand think its the greatest thing since sliced bread and will run around telling everyone the lines their dog came from.


It's not just that those dogs with correct working temperament can *produce* good pets, it's that they can BE good pets.

This is where education is important. Because the dog who can work as the breed standard defines and the family companion are NOT mutually exclusive. People who think they are, are frankly ignorant about what correct working temperament is. Sure, it's easy to be misled by statements and photos on websites and get the wrong idea, which is exactly why so many of us are constantly telling people that doing their research properly involves more than reading websites and asking questions on message boards. They need to step away from the computer, go outdoors, take a drive and see the actual dogs! To truly understand requires getting out and seeing the dogs in person, interacting with them, and seeing what they are really like.

Someone who fails to do what it takes to properly educate themselves before getting a GSD is doing a disservice to themselves, the breed, and their future dog. And breeding while living in a state of ignorance of the breed is just unconscionable.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people think that Schutzhund = drivey prey monster. That's true at the top levels of competition, but I think every GSD _should_ be able to complete at least an Sch1. The fact that they can't is kind of sad. 

I think of Schutzhund as kind of like a 5k. Every adult human who's not elderly, injured, or disabled should be able to walk or run 3 miles. Yes, there are elite athletes who can do a 5k in like 15 minutes, but you don't have to be world-class to cover the distance. Most people should be able to do it. The fact that so many can't is kind of sad.

Schutzhund doesn't = elite personal protection prey monster that can't settle down any more than walking a 5k means you're a world class athlete.


----------



## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

I did not even know what BYB stood for when i found this sight. As it turned out I spent good money for a good dog. Although papers and petagree was avalible it cost extra and i had no intentions of breading or showing her. Luckly Gypsy has turned out to be very smart, smarter than me I think some times. She has been with me since she was eight weeks old. I wish I could do it all over again, i'd buy the same dog and do a better job training.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

> whoa too deep for me very political.......lol lighten up love your dogs....lol


I know there are a lot of people that agree with this. That don't know what the big deal is. People who don't care. I wish they were posting so I could understand.

The longer "pet quality" GSDs domiate the sooner GSDs will be put on breed bans. So the attitude of not caring when all the info is right here to do better gets on my nerves. When we try to educate a potential breeder or newbie we get called snobs and told we are mean and attacking people. When we tell someone maybe a GSD is not the right fit for them we are attacked because who are we to tell them what they can and can't own. Where is the kinder and gentler gang?


----------



## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I don't think the problem solely lies with breeders. People make their own decisions, and the temperment tests we have today aren't always what peoplea are looking for. The fact that a breeder advertises his dog is Schz3 and has produced a lot of K9s is most certainly off putting to many people that want a German Shepherd as a family dog (and please none of that get another breed thing). It clearly states in the temperment standard that this dog is capable of being a companion. And I know that even the "high drive" dogs produce pet quality pets, but for some people its scary to think that their dog might be prone to biting and quite dangerous. Others on the other hand think its the greatest thing since sliced bread and will run around telling everyone the lines their dog came from.
> 
> I met a GSD once, his owners wanted to/needed to train him as a seeing eye dog. Well he was from a very reputable breeder, who had proven that his dogs can do the work. They purchased this pup for way more than what most of us consider a fair price for a dog, and planned on training him as a service dog. Well he grew up, and has the drive of a k9. I've seen him get into scuffles over tennis balls! So this breeder, proved his dogs are breed worthy, but they aren't for everyone. Clearly they needed another breeding pair for what they wanted to do.
> 
> So the whole breedworthy test is now in question. Schutzhund took a great step in trying to make a temperment test, but now that times have changed its probably time to update, but to what?



I was one of those. When I was doing my research I would see websites spouting about Sch, police dogs and showing pictures of the dogs at work. It scared me  remember I had a pet store dog that had bitten people. I am probably like any average person. I learned from my first mistake but there was still not enough information out there for me to learn about all of these titles. I also knew that there were black and tan, black and white GSD but was not really sure what a sable was.

So I got lucky with my breeder. I found people that had the dogs and I meet her dogs. When I saw the website and read things like stable minds that got me. Again remember I had a dog with out a stable mind! No this breeder does not post titles (in another thread) and I know that some of the comments on the website like stable mind thew people into a tizzy. But I have to wonder if if this is just a kinder gentler type of site? I know that when I was looking the websites that got my attention were the kinder gentler ones, not the ones with dogs doing bite work . 

So those of us who have heard of Sch but really did not know much about it would be scared off by this. Am I making sense?


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Yes Vat, you are making sense. However, one thing people need to do when they are interested in a GSD is research. Not just see pictures of them doing Schutzhund, but to actually understand WHY they do it.
We have a new member at our club with a 13 week old pup. His wife came out the first time right after we started the bite work. She got extremely scared because of these "attack" dogs. Right after the current dog was done, our trainer had the owner bring her over to meet the wife. The wife was covered in slober from the kisses she got from this "attack" dog.
Also, all Schutzhund dogs are required to earn their BH first. This is basically testing not only their obedience, but their temperment as well.
I, personally, would prefer that my dog is trained in personal protection with a solid temperment and strong nerves rather than have an untrained GSD with poor nerves attack me out of fear.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes, Valerie you are making sense because there are many like you, and I have commented on this in the past much to the annoyance of some on this forum. You admit to being a newbie, but there are handlers, breeders, and even Judges out there who believe the same thing about Sch or "gripping" dogs as you professed to believe. These are people in positions of influence in the breed and they are that ignorant on this subject and project these thoughts to anyone who will listen. Newbies have to start somewhere and as you are becoming enlightened you are seeing things somewhat differently, but these other "Breed" people who SHOULD know better????????UGH!!!


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Many members don't like my choice of breeders & wouldn't want pups from them. Fair enough. Less kosher is the hearsay, innuendo & misinformation maligning the breeders who don't adhere to others' criteria of what one must do to be a reputable breeder.

I haven't & won't buy GS from breeders I consider disreputable. Nor will I shelve my judgment, assessments & priorities to ahere to the party line of a discussion board. I truly doubt many members recommend breeders they consider to be 'poor breeders'. I suspect it's usually that we don't all have an identical definition of what constitutes a 'good breeder'.

I have little interest in SchH or show titles, which is true of some other members as well, but where in this thread has anyone called people snobs who do enjoy these activities & find them worthwhile? 

Lee, I've frequently read that WGSL are plagued with numerous health problems (some bizarre) & weak nerves despite being titled & deemed 'breed worthy'. Given that, why do you think it's the lack of titling undermining GS in the USA?



> It's not just that those dogs with correct working temperament can *produce* good pets, it's that they can BE good pets.
> 
> This is where education is important. Because the dog who can work as the breed standard defines and the family companion are NOT mutually exclusive. People who think they are, are frankly ignorant about what correct working temperament is. Sure, it's easy to be misled by statements and photos on websites and get the wrong idea, which is exactly why so many of us are constantly telling people that doing their research properly involves more than reading websites and asking questions on message boards. They need to step away from the computer, go outdoors, take a drive and see the actual dogs! To truly understand requires getting out and seeing the dogs in person, interacting with them, and seeing what they are really like.


Very, very, very true. Also troubling...

On the GS companion lines side, many WL & SL enthusiasts make enormous assumptions & generalizations of breeders they don't know, & whose dogs they've never seen or interacted with. All of which favors the party line. When provided examples of such dogs that also work the information is simply ignored.

On the WL side, forgo the glib generalizations & get down to nuts & bolts. I'm 100% convinced many WL GS breeders produce dogs that are exemplary family members & are assets to their communities. HOWEVER, just as not all SL or companion lines are good examples of the breed, neither are all working lines, even *gasp* some titled dogs from 'well regarded' breeders.

Rather than repeating the same old same old about drives, knowledgeable WL owners & breeders should provide in depth advice about strong nerves vs weak, suspicion levels, threshhold levels, reactivity, canine judgment etc. What exactly makes a particular WL breeder's GS well or poorly suited to a family with small children? What convinces you that properly raised/handled dogs from that breeder will readily respect & accept family, friends & visitors? 

Breeders who focus on producing point monster GS, or produce dogs that require ongoing close supervision &/or don't distinguish b/w children & adults, certainly aren't producing my idea of a 'good GS'. Regrettably, if they title their dogs, they meet the criteria of 'good breeder' to many people posting here. Is that really enough for those seeking beloved companions? Isn't it doing a disservice to both JQPublic & WL breeders to not assist people in understanding exactly what qualities they should seek in their family pet regardless of what lines they choose?


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> Rather than repeating the same old same old about drives, knowledgeable WL owners & breeders should provide in depth advice about strong nerves vs weak, suspicion levels, threshhold levels, reactivity, canine judgment etc. What exactly makes a particular WL breeder's GS well or poorly suited to a family with small children? What convinces you that properly raised/handled dogs from that breeder will readily respect & accept family, friends & visitors?


Uh...this is already happening? I mean, all you have to do is take a look at the threads on this board and see how many times it IS explained to people. But people just don't GET it.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Ten minutes talking bloodlines with him? Assuming we are thinking of the same person?


I don't know if you know him, he is on FB but I never see him on the discussion boards.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I loved the comparison of Sch1 to a 5k. That makes a lot of sense. And I don't want people to think that I don't agree that dogs should be titled to be bred or prove their worth, I totaly support that. I'm just looking at it from the point of view of 95% of pet owners who don't care. And if they are looking for a great family dog, and a guard dog to help deter danger they will go with a GSD. Some will understand that just because the parents do bite work it doesn't mean their puppy will be prone to biting, they get that its all about training. But others, and I bet most others, won't understand that, they will see a dog ripping into a sleeve, and run for the hills.

I totaly agree that its about education, but people just aren't willing to do that research, and even with research I'm sure it will scare people away. At that point they should go to a SL, that doesn't do such work, but then the price point will probably drive them away.

But relating this to the OP, I really believe there are great dogs from not so good breeders, probably just due to dumb luck or the fact that those breeders do do somethings correct. My pup, doesn't have a single Sch title in his pedigree, but could easily do Sch if I wanted him to. Did I get lucky? Absolutely.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Uh...I have read numerous threads where people are seeking a GS pet & got little info beyond don't buy pet lines, seek out a HOT titled dog, be certain parents passed OFA. There's usually a plethora of generic info about varying drives & the assurance that WL aren't necessarily over the top prey monsters or bite-o-matics. I've seen few in depth discussions or advice as to what families with young children need to specifically seek & assess when deciding on a breeder. The closest people usually get is when someone wants a combination of pet & pp dog. The info needed is certainly out there but I rarely see much of it in the threads where someone requests advice on purchasing a family pet. 

People seeking large, powerful family dogs should understand & appreciate the importance of assessing threshholds, reactivity, suspicion levels, mental clarity & judgment. What one breeder deems a desirable temperament could be wildly inappropriate to urban dwellers with close neighbors & multiple children.

It's generally understood that WL, SL & companion lines are distinct. Although it's much less discussed, & at times barely acknowledged, divisions exist among WL breeders as well. Some are sports fanatics. Others pride themselves on dogs that are resolutely unapproachable. Others are enamored of dogs that are mentally & emotionally balanced. IF someone new to GS prefers WL to SL or companion lines, it's imperative they understand there are philosophical differences even among WL breeders & determine exactly what they need & want in their WL pet.


----------



## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Ok unless I have missed something, where is the forum that says German Shepherd Standard or what is a German Shepherd? I do not see the page that a newbie can come to and read what the standard is and what the lines are and colors and differences between them. If it is there it is to hard to find.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*The Breed Standard*

We need to get the FCI/SV & AKC sticky back! 

http://www.fci.be/nomenclature.aspx
www.akc.org


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

A great number of people who own/want to buy a German shepherd could care less about the Standard. I've never seen a would be buyer jump out of their car with a tape measure or yard stick and start quoting the Standard. "His head is too big, his croup isn't right, his pasterns are flat ...". It just doesn't happen for a great many of German shepherds sold to the average German shepherd owner. Besides, how many German shepherds are 100% to the Standard? A breeder should try to adhere to the Standard as close as he can. The perfect GSD, by the Standard, isn't out there.


----------



## Tammy GSD (Dec 26, 2010)

This last page (3) doesn't have it as much but I wanted to chime in on something, even if it means eggs, rotten tomatoes and cabbage get thrown at me for saying it.

I, personally, have tried to always buy from reputable breeders, spending between $800-$3,500 on a dog (and have seen good and bad in that range, the worse being the $3500 dog...who I still loved, dearly).

Anyway, it seems like people are really villainizing those who buy from BYB, saying those are the people who won't get vet care, feed right and will dump off at shelters. My parents, now 67 and 69, have never spent more than $250 on a dog in their life. They have always had GSD. They moved a lot so have had dogs from all over and never once taken one to a shelter. Also, BYB or no, none of the dogs died early (other than the one who chased a frisbee that the wind carried into the street and, well, no need to explain) or had health issues. All were fed well and well cared for. Even now they own a GSD that was a BYB dog. All were beautiful, well-tempered dogs!!

People who buy BYB dogs aren't evil or stupid, just bc they didn't buy a high-dollar dog and neither are a lot of BYB evil or stupid, based only on what I have experienced in my 42 years of life and seen in my parents 69 years of life.

I've also seen people who have high-dollar dogs put theirs in the shelter or sell them to whoever answered an ad placed on CL, whose moral high horse seemed to go right out the window when the new baby was on the way or they had to move or got a new SO or married/divorced. I even took a dog home with me (kept him til he died) who's owner was literally going to shoot him in the head bc he had been hit by a car and, though he was fine except blind in one eye, would no longer herd the sheep. I put that big ol' dog in my Corvette (had to take the top off to fit him, lol) and took him home. His brilliant thought was "I spent a damned lot of money on a herding dog and he is useless to me now so I ain't gonna waste another dime in feeding him".

Point is, painting good/bad with a broad brush isn't usually the right thing to do. There are good/bad dogs in all price ranges and good/bad people in all sell/purchase ranges.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Doc said:


> A great number of people who own/want to buy a German shepherd could care less about the Standard. I've never seen a would be buyer jump out of their car with a tape measure or yard stick and start quoting the Standard. "His head is too big, his croup isn't right, his pasterns are flat ...". It just doesn't happen for a great many of German shepherds sold to the average German shepherd owner. Besides, how many German shepherds are 100% to the Standard? A breeder should try to adhere to the Standard as close as he can. The perfect GSD, by the Standard, isn't out there.


But this doesn't mean that breeders should not be addressing the standard in their programs....what good is breeding for oversized laid back GSD's when that isn't what they are supposed to be? 
If people are supporting breeders that are breeding this type, I'm sure they know nothing of the breeds true character and history. 
I do believe there are perfect GSDs out there still. And they would be easier to find if breeders would not breed for the JQP needs and wants.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Tammy GSD said:


> People who buy BYB dogs aren't evil or stupid, just bc they didn't buy a high-dollar dog and neither are a lot of BYB evil or stupid, based only on what I have experienced in my 42 years of life and seen in my parents 69 years of life.


Nope. Most byb's and the people who buy from them aren't evil or stupid. They're ignorant and/or apathetic. The best cure for ignorance is education; the best cure for apathy is.. . . . ?


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Tammy, well said! The generalizations given to BYB are usually worse case assumptions that are projected on them. Its like class warfare and the german shepherd is posed to be a working class dog!! Not some hointy-Tointy pretty beauty.....UGH!!!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My view on this matter is that I really do not care where or who people get a dog from as long as they understand what it is they are getting and what it is they REALLY want. What irks me more than people selling "pet" dogs I have no interest in, are people who are misrepresenting their dogs and/or the breed as a whole (like making false statements about other dogs/breeders in order to promote their own). For me, the majority of the effort with this breed has been trying to figure out what it is that *I* really want in my dogs. Finding that has really not been difficult. There are plenty of SchH3, international level dogs that I would not take for free. Doesn't mean they are horrible dogs, just not what I'd want to own or breed to.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> But this doesn't mean that breeders should not be addressing the standard in their programs....what good is breeding for oversized laid back GSD's when that isn't what they are supposed to be?
> If people are supporting breeders that are breeding this type, I'm sure they know nothing of the breeds true character and history.
> I do believe there are perfect GSDs out there still. And they would be easier to find if breeders would not breed for the JQP needs and wants.


There can be no "perfect" German shepherd if man is in control of it. I'm sorry, the only "perfect" GSD will evolve from nature. I would venture to say that there are more German shepherds sold to JQP than to anyone else. It's those breeders that breed to the extreme that have ruined this breed. In their attempt to "improve the breed" and "breed to the Standard" they have totally screwed up the German shepherd. Sad, but true.
Oversized with proper German shepherd temprament/nerve isn't a fault in todays world - it's the exception. Oversized - anything that is over the almighty Standard in weight and height - isn't the problem. Flakey, low riders and over aggressive uncontrollable bite-monsters are the problem but to hear many folks talk - they are better dogs because they fall within the Standard.
Even German shepherd owners and breeders that know the Standard have over-sized dogs. I guess it is ok if the elitist own/breed non Standard German shepherds because they know the Standard? Very strange logic.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> But this doesn't mean that breeders should not be addressing the standard in their programs....what good is breeding for oversized laid back GSD's when that isn't what they are supposed to be?
> If people are supporting breeders that are breeding this type, I'm sure they know nothing of the breeds true character and history.
> I do believe there are perfect GSDs out there still. And they would be easier to find if breeders would not breed for the JQP needs and wants.


 The purpose is that some people want huge, laid back GSDs. As long as there is a demand for those dogs, there will be breeder to supply them. To say "if only there weren't so many breeders who breed for JQP..." is extremely idealistic. GSDs are an extremely popular breed and it doesn't seem like that is going to change. Like all of the popular breeds, there are a lot of pet breeders because there is a market for pet puppies. There are also a lot of quality litters out there because there is a market for quality GSDs too.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Emmoore and what's really frustrating to me is the ignorant and wealthy (not rich wealthy but wealthy enough to do the following)....they can finance their ignorance all over the country with websites, kennels, marketing , and the end result produced has enormous parts of the breed in the condition of non working ornaments. Oh Well


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So just breed them and don't worry....be happy, who cares???


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> I think we learn the most from our worst dogs, not our best dogs.


HA! It's so true. But right now I feel like I could do with a little less learnin' for a while. Mike has worn me out! 

(I don't really mean "less" learning, that just fits with the quote better  I really mean different/better/less beat-your-head-against-a-wall learning!)


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Tammy, well said! The generalizations given to BYB are usually worse case assumptions that are projected on them. Its like class warfare and the german shepherd is posed to be a working class dog!! Not some hointy-Tointy pretty beauty.....UGH!!!


I guess all those farmer/shepherds in Germany that supplied the foundation dogs for this breed would be classified as BYBs today. Oh my, you mean this breed was developed by BYBs??? I bet they couldn't even read the Standard but understood what was needed in their dogs to get their jobs done. Now that's a novel approach.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Doc said:


> I guess all those farmer/shepherds in Germany that supplied the foundation dogs for this breed would be classified as BYBs today. Oh my, you mean this breed was developed by BYBs??? I bet they couldn't even read the Standard but understood what was needed in their dogs to get their jobs done. Now that's a novel approach.


I bet those farmers/shepherds weren't producing laid back oversized dogs, either!


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Laid back in certain enviroments, calm, settles, good around children, good around other animals are all traits of a German shepherd. Knowing when to protect, when not to protect are all traits of the German shepherd. Breeding a German shepherd that is naturally protective and calm (laid back) when it is suppose to be is within the Standard. Before you start classifying all dogs that come from a particular breeder as, over-sized, laid back, and not to the Standard, maybe you better know/interact with some of those German shepherds.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I bet those farmers/shepherds weren't producing laid back oversized dogs, either!


I'm sure the police officer that decided to come into the back yard at 8:30 pm dressed all in black can testify how laid back one of my over-sized dogs were when she was attached to his rear-end. I'm sure the early farmer/shepherd dogs were laid-backed in certain environments - in the house, in the barn, around young children, around young livestock. "Laid back" is a misused, misunderstood description when talking about German shepherds. I breed dogs that are calm when they are suppose to be calm. Not the proverbial "Golden in a GSD body" that everyone likes to throw around.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I bet those farmers/shepherds weren't producing laid back oversized dogs, either!


Perhaps you should study the dogs from the Wurttemberg region of Germany (close to Bavaria) and the dogs from the Krone Kennels and others from that region that were used in the development of the GSD. You might learn something.
BTW, how are your oversized dogs getting along?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My 90#er's are doing just fine!! 
And they are also calm, settled~ not always turned on. Athletic and can go all day long when needed. 
Not sure why you think I was talking about you, Doc...
There have been quite a few threads recently about breeders who are breeding oversized dogs.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

opcorn:


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Doc said:


> Before you start classifying all dogs that come from a particular breeder as, over-sized, laid back, and not to the Standard, maybe you better know/interact with some of those German shepherds.


Not if that's what they're advertising...


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> My 90#er's are doing just fine!!
> And they are also calm, settled~ not always turned on. Athletic and can go all day long when needed.
> Not sure why you think I was talking about you, Doc...
> There have been quite a few threads recently about breeders who are breeding oversized dogs.


Jane, we always have this discussion. I can't understand your aversion to folks that breed dogs that end up being "over-sized" when you own over-sized dogs. Is it fault according to the Standard - yes; but it hasn't stopped you from owning them - and it will not stop the breeder from using the same cross that produced over-sized dogs because on all other accounts, the dogs are a good representation of the breed with the exception of being over-sized. 
So you are going to preach the Standard and bash breeders of over-sized GS but own non-Standard dogs and support breeders that end up producing non-Standard dogs. That's one reason we always have this discussion. At least I am upfront and tell potential buyers that my dogs are over-sized according to the Standard. And I choose to highlight the fact that are calm yet naturally protective - as a German shepherd should be.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Breeders can tell me whatever they want about their dogs but if I want to know the specifics I simply look at the Koerschein. They can say the dog has "good" hips but I'll just look at the x-rays. They can tell me their dog does this and acts like this because of this this and this in the pedigree and it really makes no difference to me until I SEE the dog working, interact with the dog myself, observe its behavior toward new people, other dogs, being in a house, etc. Again that's just MY criteria but I'm never going to buy a dog based solely on what one person tells me about it even if it's Max incarnate himself. The dog is what it is and if I want a protection dog, I observe the dog working in this state, if I want a dog that settles well in the house, then I observe the dog in his house. Pedigree and all that is important to but at the end of the day, if the pedigree tells me the dog is stable and I observe the dog being reactive and edgy, then it's a deal-breaker.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

:thumbup:


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Doc said:


> Jane, we always have this discussion. I can't understand your aversion to folks that breed dogs that end up being "over-sized" when you own over-sized dogs. Is it fault according to the Standard - yes; but it hasn't stopped you from owning them - and it will not stop the breeder from using the same cross that produced over-sized dogs because on all other accounts, the dogs are a good representation of the breed with the exception of being over-sized.
> So you are going to preach the Standard and bash breeders of over-sized GS but own non-Standard dogs and support breeders that end up producing non-Standard dogs. That's one reason we always have this discussion. At least I am upfront and tell potential buyers that my dogs are over-sized according to the Standard. And I choose to highlight the fact that are calm yet naturally protective - as a German shepherd should be.


Doc, you took my comment personally...my point is that those that will buy from a breeder who is not breeding within the GSD standard probably don't even know there is one!
You are the one that brought up the ruler/measurements.
Not sure why I need to defend my dogs, but here goes:
One of my dogs is from a "breeder"(I could call here a BYB, but whatever) who didn't breed for anything other than her pocket. Onyx was a surprise to the family....I never went and sought out a breeder who breeds oversized dogs, this breeder did not do that. Truthfully, I would have passed on her if it would not have caused problems with my husband. He was very excited to give this gift to the family, and he found out about the litter from a co-worker. The reason I would have passed is the lack of health tests, paperwork the breeder failed to do, and I would have rescued a dog had I known another dog was coming into the home.
Onyx is the largest in her litter, most are all 65-75# at adulthood. One other male is as large as her.
My other 90# is stealth and athletic, he is not large boned. And he is also the largest in his litter...and will not be used for breeding. He was also not bred by a breeder who sets out to breed over-sized dogs....maybe it is my water?
My dogs aren't the huge boned type, just taller and muscular.










To the others, sorry to take this thread off topic....I still support a breeder who is responsibly trying to keep the GSD a working dog, and not one who is breeding just to breed to please JQP.


----------



## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Jane, sorry he made you feel that way. 
***Removed by Admin***


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Oh, I got it now Jane. I guess the largest in a litter would of been culled by a "responsible" breeder??? Give me a break.
So JQP doesn't deserve a German shepherd? Aren't you JQP? Like I said before and I think most will agree, JQP could care less about a Standard. But why can't JQP be in position to buy a German shepherd with proper nerve/temperament albeit over a Standard that they place no value on? Oh that's right, it is an elitist breed and the average JQP doesn't deserve the choice.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My dogs didn't start out large, they ended up that way....yeah, the breeder will see into the future and cull the pups that may be 5# over the standard.

I didn't say JCP doesn't deserve a GSD.....what are you reading into my posts that isn't there? Whatever, you can twist my comments anyway you want to justify your opinions. I am JQP, but am more informed I think than the general JQP, as most on this board are.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me, the standard sort of works itself out. Form follows function. It's not as easy as size and weight. I've seen a dog weighing less than many others but with such a deep chest and massive bone, the dog is heaving after a short time of exercise. Some dogs are lean and finer boned but are so long and have such extreme angles they cannot really turn and jump effectively. If my dog does agility, flyball, tracking, obedience, multiple venues of protection work, dock diving, lure coursing, and herds sheep at ease, then I'm OK with him having some cosmetic "faults". But, anything that would conformationally speaking restrict a dog from doing all these activities at east, I'm not OK with. Furthermore, I won't just take someone's word for it that the dog can do these things unless the breeding dogs ARE doing these things. There are enough GSDs and breeders out there that buyers can be as picky as they want. Why would I consider breeders whose dogs DONT do the things I want to do?


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Over the Standard is over the Standard. What's wrong for one is wrong for everyone. It can't be both ways. It's the Standard. Either you are within the Standard or you're not. Most of my dogs are not within some part of the Standard and I let people know that upfront. I guess that makes me an unethical/BYB scum of the earth breeder. .


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Doc said:


> Over the Standard is over the Standard. What's wrong for one is wrong for everyone. It can't be both ways. It's the Standard. Either you are within the Standard or you're not. Most of my dogs are not within some part of the Standard and I let people know that upfront. I guess that makes me an unethical/BYB scum of the earth breeder. .


You have wonderful dogs. I'd take a Doc dog anyday.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Liesje said:


> If my dog does agility, flyball, tracking, obedience, multiple venues of protection work, dock diving, lure coursing, and herds sheep at ease, then I'm OK with him having some cosmetic "faults". But, anything that would conformationally speaking restrict a dog from doing all these activities at east, I'm not OK with. Furthermore, I won't just take someone's word for it that the dog can do these things unless the breeding dogs ARE doing these things.


Oh if only I had a dollar for every breeder who told me "OH my dogs could do schutzhund, but I don't have time to go to trials....but honestly, they can work JUST as well as those other dogs!" 

Or my other favorite, "MY dog is trained thru Utility.....but I hate obedience trials and I know he would too, so I'm not putting us thru that ordeal. But REALLY, he's trained thru Utility, and could get his OTCh if I liked going to dog shows!"


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> Over the Standard is over the Standard. What's wrong for one is wrong for everyone. It can't be both ways. It's the Standard. Either you are within the Standard or you're not. Most of my dogs are not within some part of the Standard and I let people know that upfront. I guess that makes me an unethical/BYB scum of the earth breeder. .


True but there are faults vs. disqualifying traits, KKL1, KKL2.... ratings V, SG, G.... The dog is either in the standard or not, but the standard is not height and weight within a quarter of a pound or a quarter of an inch either. There is room up down and sideways.

If people don't care about standards, that's their business. I care, and I care about what I believe is the correct type, size, proportions, etc for my dogs to do their work in peak physical condition and remain healthy and active for their lifespan. A dog outside of the standard can't meet my requirements, so they are of no interest to me. I don't care if you or anyone is a "BYB" or not; either your dogs fit my purposes or they don't and that's all their is to it for me. People should spend their time and energy finding the right dog for THEM and not be so concerned with others.


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Do you guys really think the German Shepherd as a breed has been ruined? Or are you just saying that for effect?


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Good_Karma said:


> Do you guys really think the German Shepherd as a breed has been ruined? Or are you just saying that for effect?


While it certainly doesn't apply to all dogs, looking at the state of the breed as a whole in 2011, yes.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Ruined. Sad but true.


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Is there any hope?


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Hope springs eternal for the optimist. But turning this boat around will be next to impossible.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When Max realized that there was not and would not always be the demand for sheepherding dogs, he turned to police/military work the dogs could do to save the breed. My guess is when he did that he chose to breed for some traits more than others at that point. 

I see no reason why we should not breed for traits that make great SAR dogs, service dogs, therapy dogs, while others breed for traits that make great guard or protection dogs. Not all the dog need to be ready to take your leg off. But all need to have good solid nerves. If we just focus on having a solid dog, we do not have to train every single one in protection.


----------



## wimmer105 (Jan 2, 2011)

I have purchased both kinds of GSD titled untitled every way! the best happened to be was when we were able to purchased the first puppy out of the litter the alpha male!!! He was our greatest joy and everything to us! we talked to him like a child and he understood everything we said, opened doors cabinets and gates but would not go out the gate unless we called him, he took naps with us on the hammock and dont raise your voice to us! You could not spank a child with him near, He wasn't titled but we did not need that with him because he was exactly like we wanted!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My schutzhund trained and titled dogs also - all pass CGC and TDI - some have done nursing home duty - some have done herding ....my dogs have all done AKC rally/ob/agility - a friend who is an AKC rally judge says they are the only GSDs she has ever seen that she likes - yea, I haven't got around to finishing titles on everyone (still ticked off about the judging the last time I showed Basha!!!) - but the Ghost and Kyra had Sch 3s, IPOs, WH, KKL, OB3s, CDs and a couple of legs on the CDX, My BYB Kelsey got a CD and CGC- was spread to thin time and resources to continue...my co-owned Sch1 male is a working SAR dog with IPWDA certs, has an RH - and a CGC and TDI....a female from my Pike daughter (Sch3) and Yoshey son (also Sch3) has more initials after her name than I can remember - OB adn Agility....and two other males from my E and F litters are top notch flyball competitors with lots of initials after their names - Including a Sch1 (going for 2 in spring)....and lets not forget the dual certified narcotics patrol dog working the Canadian border - he also had a CGC and is a family dog when not on the job....Schutzhund work and titles are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE FROM OTHER AREAS OF WORKABILITY!!!! The 3 phases of schutzhund are a breeding test! Modern day leisure time and interest has turned it into a sport, but never forget why it was developed.

Breeding for the traits to do schutzhund should be breeding for more than a dog who bites a sleeve. It is breeding for stability and that discerning thinking temperament that is just as much a part of the Standard as height and weight ranges....and pigment and angulation...it is breeding for resilience and loyalty. It is breeding for hunt drive and trainability. Breeders who do not care about the working titles and only care about size or color or sweetness of nature without consideration or caring for all these different aspects in balance are just pretty much breeding for their wallets....No one ever said that the GSD was a pet dog. Saying you just want to breed for pets diminishes and disrespects the ideal character of the breed - and breeding for nothing but looks with lip service to the work comes a close second IMO


And YES - I think that overall - the breed is ruined. It will not come back into a cohesive type in my lifetime.

Lee


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Breeders that think that breeding for dogs that do service work, therapy work, and family life, is separate from breeding for Sch or police work was the start of the ruination....JMO. All of these can come from the same litter...and if you are breeding dogs that are so strong or driven they can't do these things,OR you are breeding dogs that are so soft that they can't do Sch or protection work.....then either way you are helping ruin the breed...JMO...one is bad as other. Strong, vigilant, courageous, stable, fearless, if these words aren't in your breeding goals I can't see how you can credibly criticize others. Afterall, those words are the legacy of the breed.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Breeding for the traits to do schutzhund should be breeding for more than a dog who bites a sleeve. It is breeding for stability and that discerning thinking temperament that is just as much a part of the Standard as height and weight ranges....and pigment and angulation...it is breeding for resilience and loyalty. It is breeding for hunt drive and trainability. Breeders who do not care about the working titles and only care about size or color or sweetness of nature without consideration or caring for all these different aspects in balance are just pretty much breeding for their wallets....No one ever said that the GSD was a pet dog. Saying you just want to breed for pets diminishes and disrespects the ideal character of the breed - and breeding for nothing but looks with lip service to the work comes a close second IMO


Amen sister! You tell 'em!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thank you for the great posts Lee and Cliff! I wish others would share your views


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Weren't GSDs bred to be a great all around dog that can do almost anything?? Or something along those lines.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Could those of you familiar with how things work in Europe explain something to me.

When your average German citizen wants to add a GSD to the family, what do they do? Do they make the same uninformed decisions so many American's make when adding a dog to the household? Are things better over there because of breeding restrictions or is their JQP smarter? Both?

Do Europeans have the same attitude as so many Americans in that they don't care about the dog's standard temperament? Is there a BYB problem in Europe? I know they would not be able to register the dogs there without meeting requirements but do people there also have the attitude of not caring about titles?


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Anyone breeding to insure the traits that Lee & Cliff so beautifully described, IMO...is breeding the GSD.
I hope to remain optimistic till the end...


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

sagelfn said:


> When your average German citizen wants to add a GSD to the family, what do they do? Do they make the same uninformed decisions so many American's make when adding a dog to the household? Are things better over there because of breeding restrictions or is their JQP smarter? Both?


In Germany, a dog cannot be registered with the SV (their governing body for GSDS) for breeding unless it has passing hip scores, an Sch1, and a breed survey from a breed warden. So over there, if you go out and buy a "registered" dog, you have some guarantee that its parents met that standard. 

Here in the states, of course, the only requirement for a dog to be registered with the AKC is that its parents were registered. People think that AKC papers are some kind of guarantee of quality, but they're not.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> Could those of you familiar with how things work in Europe explain something to me.
> 
> When your average German citizen wants to add a GSD to the family, what do they do? Do they make the same uninformed decisions so many American's make when adding a dog to the household? Are things better over there because of breeding restrictions or is their JQP smarter? Both?
> 
> Do Europeans have the same attitude as so many Americans in that they don't care about the dog's standard temperament? Is there a BYB problem in Europe? I know they would not be able to register the dogs there without meeting requirements but do people there also have the attitude of not caring about titles?





Emoore said:


> In Germany, a dog cannot be registered with the SV (their governing body for GSDS) for breeding unless it has passing hip scores, an Sch1, and a breed survey from a breed warden. So over there, if you go out and buy a "registered" dog, you have some guarantee that its parents met that standard.
> 
> Here in the states, of course, the only requirement for a dog to be registered with the AKC is that its parents were registered. People think that AKC papers are some kind of guarantee of quality, but they're not.


So do you think that since dogs must meet certain criteria there people are more aware of what is a good breeder and isn't. To my knowledge there are not junk registries there and I assume it is because people there know better. Same as why there is not a huge (to my knowledge) BYB problem.

Would it be feasible to create a sub organization of some sort here in the states connected to the SV? Where to register a litter the dogs must meet SV requirements?


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

sagelfn said:


> So do you think that since dogs must meet certain criteria there people are more aware of what is a good breeder and isn't. To my knowledge there are not junk registries there and I assume it is because people there know better. Same as why there is not a huge (to my knowledge) BYB problem.
> 
> Would it be feasible to create a sub organization of some sort here in the states connected to the SV? Where to register a litter the dogs must meet SV requirements?



The result of the requirements is that there are very few breeders doing non registered litters - some yes, doing white papers (provisional or similar to limited) - and this is not just GSD, it is Vizlas, Rotties - other working breeds (no clue how they structure breeding criteria for toy breeds!) so the average buyer does not have to consider whether the litter is bred to conform to the standard.

The organization exists - good or bad, warts and all - the United Schutzhund Club of America.....

Lee


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I just sent my renewal $100 dues in to the UScA today....


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks for the info Lee. I have heard good and bad about the United Schutzhund Club of America but did not know it operated like the SV or at least tried to.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breeding Regulations
United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So I'm guessing in Germany the SV is the #1 organization and even the SL dogs have to have those requirements to breed? That would be the biggest problem in the states, since the AKC is so established and put on most of the shows, JQP has no idea what the UScA is, and won't bother to learn about it. If in Germany you go around saying your dog is SV registered and thats why its awesome, in the states you say its AKC registered. Nothing can change that because none of the other dog owners would have any idea what you're talking about.

But I'm going to need to do some research on this thing, sounds awesome!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Since the USA broke their ties with the WDA I am still waiting to see the fall-out... now that Danny Spreitler is on board with USA after resigning from WDA. I was waiting to re-up my membership, but there is no option unless I trial with SDA or DVG clubs which are far and few between.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

The club here is WDA. I had planned on contacting them when they resume training this spring.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The SV is the German Shepherd dog club of Germany and father of the breed. Since it is a breed club they have instilled the minimum requirements they think are necessary to maintain this breed. All this arguing about what a German Shepherd should be....I think the founding breed club would have better handle on that than export countries if we are sincere. The AKC is a registry for all breeds and has no responsibility to ensure that the breed remains true to form. The GSDCA and the USCA are the two primary breed clubs in America. The GSDCA really doesn't have any minimum requirements except AKC registration. The WDA is a branch of the GSDCA which has patterned themselves after the SV in Germany to try to ensure certain traits, through minimum requirements like the SV. The USCA also patterns itself after the SV. This posts is not to promote any or either, it just relects the different approaches to maintaining the breed by parent clubs in Germany and America.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> Breeders that think that breeding for dogs that do service work, therapy work, and family life, is separate from breeding for Sch or police work was the start of the ruination....JMO. All of these can come from the same litter...and if you are breeding dogs that are so strong or driven they can't do these things,OR you are breeding dogs that are so soft that they can't do Sch or protection work.....then either way you are helping ruin the breed...JMO...one is bad as other. Strong, vigilant, courageous, stable, fearless, if these words aren't in your breeding goals I can't see how you can credibly criticize others. Afterall, those words are the legacy of the breed.


Whole heartedly agree with Cliff.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> The SV is the German Shepherd dog club of Germany and father of the breed. Since it is a breed club they have instilled the minimum requirements they think are necessary to maintain this breed. All this arguing about what a German Shepherd should be....I think the founding breed club would have better handle on that than export countries if we are sincere. The AKC is a registry for all breeds and has no responsibility to ensure that the breed remains true to form. The GSDCA and the USCA are the two primary breed clubs in America. The GSDCA really doesn't have any minimum requirements except AKC registration. The WDA is a branch of the GSDCA which has patterned themselves after the SV in Germany to try to ensure certain traits, through minimum requirements like the SV. The USCA also patterns itself after the SV. This posts is not to promote any or either, it just relects the different approaches to maintaining the breed by parent clubs in Germany and America.



EXACTLY!!!!

with some expansion - the WDA is a show (with minor in trial) organization which does not operate a breeding registy separately from the AKC - I always call it the "illegitimate stepchild" of the GSDCA - the token offering to the SV that the GSDCA is attempting to follow the FCI Standard...trotted out to placate the SV for FCI purposes...


----------



## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

I want a Harley. One of the big ones with lots of chrome. Maybe a V-Rod. (That sounds so cool!) I've never ridden one before-- the only motorbike I've ever ridden was a little dirt bike, and I fell off of it after about 300 yards when I hit a bump I didn't see coming. I still think it would be pretty awesome to be able to tell people I have a Harley, though. I've heard they can go pretty fast. Even though I'm probably only going to drive it to the grocery store and church and park it in the driveway, I want something that can go really fast because you never know, I might have to go somewhere in a hurry or get away from someone who's chasing me. I don't even care who I buy it from, or where they got it. Basically it just has to cost less than $2000, have the Harley-Davidson logo on it, and be purple. (That's my favourite colour.) It's okay if it doesn't come with titles or registrations or a bunch of papers that show its history. I see no point in paying extra for a bike that comes with "papers" since I don't plan to compete with it anyway.


----------



## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

Augh, WRONG THREAD!! (I think..!?) :blush::blush::blush:

Karma's probably got me in her crosshairs again. *sigh*


----------



## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

Dogaroo said:


> I want a Harley. One of the big ones with lots of chrome. Maybe a V-Rod. (That sounds so cool!) I've never ridden one before-- the only motorbike I've ever ridden was a little dirt bike, and I fell off of it after about 300 yards when I hit a bump I didn't see coming. I still think it would be pretty awesome to be able to tell people I have a Harley, though. I've heard they can go pretty fast. Even though I'm probably only going to drive it to the grocery store and church and park it in the driveway, I want something that can go really fast because you never know, I might have to go somewhere in a hurry or get away from someone who's chasing me. I don't even care who I buy it from, or where they got it. Basically it just has to cost less than $2000, have the Harley-Davidson logo on it, and be purple. (That's my favourite colour.) It's okay if it doesn't come with titles or registrations or a bunch of papers that show its history. I see no point in paying extra for a bike that comes with "papers" since I don't plan to compete with it anyway.


I disagree. I think Lux washing powder is super soft on the whites and will only make colors run if you overload !


----------



## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

kidkhmer said:


> I disagree. I think Lux washing powder is super soft on the whites and will only make colors run if you overload !


*giggle* I was just telling my coworker today, that it does NOT pay for me to speak self-righteously about ANYTHING because when I do, I invariably do something to embarrass myself a very short time later. (Especially when I have a raging migraine!)  :crazy: 

I vaguely remember that I was trying to make a point, but y'know, it's hard to make a point when yer brain ain't at its sharpest.... I'm pretty sure there was a poi.... Aww, never mind.... I'll try the Lux one day when I'm not in overload. Thanks for the tip.


----------

