# problem when marker training



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

before i started marker training i'd just give my dog treats, just because. but since everyone at the park would make their dog sit before giving them treats (they'd give the command though but it was always the SIT command) i assumed that a dog can only get treats if he sits. (duh, i know)

so for a few months i made sure he'd sit for a treat. now i'm marker training, sometimes i want him to stand up, like i'm trying to teach him the STAND command, to stand up from a sit or a down.

i say YES to mark at the right time, but if i take too long to get the treat out (i don't always have them in my hand so sometimes i have to dig in the bag) he will sit because he thinks the hold up is him not sitting.


so i'm trying to teach him to STAND and though i marked the right moment he ends up getting the treat while sitting.

how can i teach him to stop sitting down for treats? i don't want to withhold the treat even longer and make him stand again, i think i will confuse him even more


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

When I first start something like the stand, I either <gasp> already have the treat in my hand or very accessible. At home we train next to the TV table and I keep a bowl of treats right here.
In theory, the "mark" while standing is enough.... but in reality the placement of reward is equally as important and rewarding in-position is imperative during certain parts of the training phase..... IMO.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

gagsd said:


> When I first start something like the stand, I either <gasp> already have the treat in my hand or very accessible. At home we train next to the TV table and I keep a bowl of treats right here.
> In theory, the "mark" while standing is enough.... but in reality the placement of reward is equally as important and rewarding in-position is imperative during certain parts of the training phase..... IMO.


i also think placement matters somewhat that's why i'm trying to make him stop sitting.

i can manage to have the treats ready but i'd really like to untrain him from sitting for treats. i imagine it will cause more problems down the line when i'm teaching other things.


ETA my treats are pretty accessible, on my side in a treat bag. so i'm not taking 5 mins to get the treat out, it's moments, maybe 2 seconds if that. unless i give to him in half a second he will sit


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

When a dog is learning something new, both the timing of the marker and the reward is very important. So be ready with treats in hand to reward promptly - the marker is great for marking the EXACT behaviour you want, but if the reward is not forthcoming, it will confuse the dog. 

Marker training requires forward planning and great multitasking skills! Classes help a lot in that regards.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

lalachka said:


> unless i give to him in half a second he will sit


That's why you need to be ready to reward instantly! This isn't a dog behaviour issue, this is a training/reward timing issue.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> When a dog is learning something new, both the timing of the marker and the reward is very important. So be ready with treats in hand to reward promptly - the marker is great for marking the EXACT behaviour you want, but if the reward is not forthcoming, it will confuse the dog.
> 
> Marker training requires forward planning and great multitasking skills! Classes help a lot in that regards.


i'm meeting a trainer tomorrow and she will let me know if my dog is OK for class, he's reactive to people and dogs somewhat.

i have Michael Ellis videos though, i think i got the hang of it. i just wish i had someone to ask when things like these come along.

i can make sure i give him treats right after the YES, so are you saying it's OK to ignore him doing this and that it will go away after a while of me doing it this way?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

lalachka said:


> i can manage to have the treats ready but i'd really like to untrain him from sitting for treats. i imagine it will cause more problems down the line when i'm teaching other things.


Look at it as a good thing, a solid skill your dog already has, rather than something to be untrained. You just need to add some books to that library.


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## mbussinger166 (Sep 10, 2013)

Are you using hand signals also? If so I always put a treat in between my fingers on my signal hand so when the dogs obeys I click and give him the treat.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

gagsd said:


> Look at it as a good thing, a solid skill your dog already has, rather than something to be untrained. You just need to add some books to that library.


Lol I don't get it. Leave it alone and just work on giving him treats right away?

What do you mean by books and library, I'm slow)))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

mbussinger166 said:


> Are you using hand signals also? If so I always put a treat in between my fingers on my signal hand so when the dogs obeys I click and give him the treat.


I am until I give him a word for the command. Like once he does it every time on a lure I then use voice only. 

I usually have him do series of stand, sit, down and I put a bunch of treats in one hand and take one by one with the other. 

At some point I have to refill and sometimes it happens that I gave the command, marked, it's time to treat and I realize that the piece is too tiny so I have to dig for more. 

The treats are not all the same size. 

Like who knows that you'd come across stuff like this? I didn't lol


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> i can make sure i give him treats right after the YES, so are you saying it's OK to ignore him doing this and that it will go away after a while of me doing it this way?


Yes. That's called putting it on "stimulus control". Stimulus control | Kaye's Dog Training Courses

Here are the four components of stimulus control: 



> ▪ The behaviour occurs immediately when the conditioned stimulus is given.
> ▪ The behaviour never occurs in the absence of the stimulus *(in a training situation)*
> ▪ The behaviour never occurs in response to some other stimulus.
> ▪ No other behaviour occurs in response to this stimulus


If you're trying to train a stand and he's sitting, then it's okay to ignore the sit because that's not what you asked for.



gagsd said:


> Look at it as a good thing, a solid skill your dog already has, rather than something to be untrained.


I believe what Mary is saying here is that you've got a nice default sit for a treat. Nothing wrong with that! I'm a huge fan of default behaviors and spend a lot of time working on them from early on, as part of my foundation training. My dogs both have great default sits and downs, and also eye contact. I'm fine with them offering those behaviors in the absence of any particular cue, because they're behaviors I want to encourage. But that doesn't mean I'd be okay with a down when I've asked for a sit, or vice versa. 

Note the part I bolded above about abut a behavior never occurring in the absence of the stimulus (a cue) - it's important to distinguish between a training situation, where you don't want him to sit when you're trying to train something else, and day to day life when a polite sit is nice, especially when you've got food in your hand, on your person, or nearby.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

But he did stand, so he did what I asked. He only offered the default behavior when he didn't get a treat fast enough after hearing YES. 

So I'm assuming that when he heard YES and no treat came he then thought that it didn't come because he wasn't sitting (as I had him do for months). 


So I can make sure I always give him treats fast enough for now but I thought the beauty of the marker system was that you can mark and then take your time if you need to. 

To quote Michael, no matter how good you are, you won't consistently deliver treats within a second and a half EvERY time. So that's when markers come in, as long as you mark within a second and a half then that's all that matters. 


So any time I take a little longer with a treat after marking he will start doubting himself and offering default behaviors (sitting)


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Yes, Debbie nicely explained what I mean.

As to the library... I often tell people we need to build a library of behaviors. I like that analogy rather than just thinking 'COMMANDS."
If my dog has lots of behaviors that have been reinforced (aka Books), then we have things to build from. If he has a sit, down, touch, stand, wait, come, bring, etc.... then I can put those behaviors into longer strings such as a formal retrieve. But first I NEED those "books in the library."


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

gagsd said:


> Yes, Debbie nicely explained what I mean.
> 
> As to the library... I often tell people we need to build a library of behaviors. I like that analogy rather than just thinking 'COMMANDS."
> If my dog has lots of behaviors that have been reinforced (aka Books), then we have things to build from. If he has a sit, down, touch, stand, wait, come, bring, etc.... then I can put those behaviors into longer strings such as a formal retrieve. But first I NEED those "books in the library."


Got you. That's how I first read it but then I thought you might be saying I have to buy some training books to add to my library of training videos))))))




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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> i say YES to mark at the right time, but if i take too long to get the treat out (i don't always have them in my hand so sometimes i have to dig in the bag) he will sit because he thinks the hold up is him not sitting.
> 
> 
> so i'm trying to teach him to STAND and though i marked the right moment he ends up getting the treat while sitting.


That is a treat delivery timing issue. Knowing that his sit is strong and the stand is not, it's especially important to have a treat ready so you can get it in his mouth before he has the opportunity to do something else. I found stand to be much more challenging to train than sit or down, so when we were working on it I had a bunch of tiny treats in my hand and I was delivering them rapid fire while Halo was in position, and then I released her. I was able to gradually build up duration this way, but it's never been one of her better behaviors. It's also one of the least important to me, which is why I haven't spent tons of time working on it. 

On the last night of her Puppy 2 class we all had to do a 3 minute down/stay, a one minute sit/stay, and a 30 second stand/stay. The sit and down were no problem, and I was just barely able to get her to remain standing for 30 seconds straight by treating her pretty constantly for the entire time. That may have been partly because she already had good default sits and downs and I hadn't worked that hard on the stay command, especially the duration aspect, but also because if a dog has to do nothing for a while it's just more comfortable to sit or lay down than it is to stand there. A higher level of reinforcement, since this is a newer and more difficult behavior, along with better timing of the treat, should help fix this for you. 



> how can i teach him to stop sitting down for treats? i don't want to withhold the treat even longer and make him stand again, i think i will confuse him even more


Until his stand is better, I think I'd work on that separately before continuing to use it as part of your drills. If you miss and he's already sitting, I might use a negative (AKA "no reward" marker), such as "oops!" or "ah ah", and then re-cue the stand. When he stands again, be very enthusiastic with your "YES!" to make it very clear that's the behavior that's earning a reward. In addition to using my voice in a happy and enthusiastic way, I also use my facial expressions to indicate my approval.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> But he did stand, so he did what I asked. He only offered the default behavior when he didn't get a treat fast enough after hearing YES.


Yes, I got that. But since he didn't get the treat quickly enough he probably won't make the connection. 



> So any time I take a little longer with a treat after marking he will start doubting himself and offering default behaviors (sitting)


Not necessarily forever, or for every command. How long have you been marker training him? It may be that he doesn't understand the concept well enough yet if it's still pretty new to him. And also at 9 months old he has some behaviors that are very strong (sit for a treat), and others (stand) that are brand new. It makes sense that if he doesn't get the reward fast enough he's going to start second guessing himself and offering up something that has been consistently been reinforced in the past.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Of course it makes sense, I'm not faulting him for anything)))) just trying to understand the mechanics. 


I guess I'm trying to make sure that this will go away at some point. It's not just the STAND that's a problem, any command that's not a SIT will result in him sitting if I took too long. 

I just want to get the association of treats and sitting out of his head. I'm sure it will be a problem for other commands as well. 

I can try to never be late but as I said, that's supposed to be the beauty of the marker system, to give us time to treat because it's impossible to always be able to produce a treat within a few secs 



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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I saw what uu said to do, to praise and to give a negative marker when he sits after a stand. I will praise as I already do, I was just afraid that I will confuse him if I mark a negative after I marked a positive and he didn't get treated for it


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

To me, a negative marker just means "not that - try again", it's not "no, no, bad dog!". When I say "oops!" it's actually in a neutral or cheerful tone of voice. 

I do think that once he starts to grasp the concept of marker training and really GETS that the marker means that what he was doing at that exact second is what is earning the reward (are you SURE he understands that?), then delaying the reward by a bit will be less of an issue.

And it may be less of an issue with other commands too, it's just that right now you're working on something brand new where he's fully able to chose to do something else that's well established instead, that has a much longer history of reinforcement. Patience, grasshopper.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Take my advice with a grain of salt because this is my first GSD and I have no idea what I'm doing. But I have this problem a little with my dog. For one thing, stand isn't as useful or fun, so we don't work on it as much, which is our fault. Because when I DO want her to stand (it's time to go outside before bed sleep puppy!) she doesn't have the near-automatic reaction that she does to sit or down. The other thing is that we work so much on down for so many different reasons, that if we have something she wants, she'll often throw herself (almost literally) into a down with either no command or a different command like sit. She thinks she can short cut all of our other bs and cut to the chase to the thing she just KNOWS we really want her to do. This is adorable, but not productive for training. 

When she does it, I just look at her. I don't say or do anything. She'll realize she jumped the gun and she'll either sit or stand or keep laying there, but she calms down quite a bit because she's not getting the instant reward. Once she snaps out of "Oh boy, I'm down, I'm DOWN GIVE IT TO ME!" mode, I reissue the command, if I gave one. If I spoke it out loud the first time, I give the hand signal the second time and vice versa. I don't know why, I guess I want her to just keep in the habit that both of them work. And if I DO want her to be down, then I give her a different command, then YES! if she obeys, then down and YES! and treat. I want her to learn to stop anticipating what I want and pay attention to what I actually asked for. But her behavior also shows me where I'm weak. She does that because we've worked on down too much in comparison to other commands. So then we emphasize other commands more for a while (including boring stand) so we're not so predictable. These dogs are so darn smart that they think they can read minds.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

gagsd said:


> *When I first start something like the stand, I either <gasp> already have the treat in my hand or very accessible.* At home we train next to the TV table and I keep a bowl of treats right here.
> In theory, the "mark" while standing is enough.... but in reality the placement of reward is equally as important and rewarding in-position is imperative during certain parts of the training phase..... IMO.


lol


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

WendyM said:


> Take my advice with a grain of salt because this is my first GSD and I have no idea what I'm doing.


Wendy, that was actually an excellent post! :thumbup:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> lol


I didn't want to comment on the gasp but now I will. Gasp, Michael Ellis who has more experience and knowledge than most of you says that no matter how good you are you can't consistently deliver treats within a second and a half. 

There will be many situations when you can't get the treats on time. That's the point of a marker, to mark so that you don't have to treat within the second a half. 

If you're that good then don't click or mark, you don't need to. Stuff treats in their mouths instead. 




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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wendy, that was actually an excellent post! :thumbup:


Thanks! She's still training me more than I'm training her right now, but I'm working on it. I'm just not as smart as she is so it takes me a little longer.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

:shrug: Yeah, I'm not that big on being a "Treat dispenser." Like gagsd said, I use them IN THE BEGINNING, but do not after that....if my dog isn't getting it pretty quick, I'm doing something wrong...I don't like to stick to just ONE person's training advice, it doesn't always work for every dog, and if my dog isn't picking it up pretty quick I try something else.....but to me your problem is a very "duh" problem....if you are going to use treats....have a treat ready at all times....I dunno, maybe that's harder than I thought. :shrug:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I AM at the beginning. I just started it 3 weeks ago and most of it was engagement, I just started teaching commands a week ago. 


I will go with Michael, Ed Frawley and Cindy on this. Throughout the entire learning phase the dog gets treats for everything. Especially at the beginning. 
So I'll be a treat dispenser. 

To you my problem might be a simple problem, so what? Do you want to start comparing things we know how to do? There's a bunch of things I can do that you can't. Your point?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I listen to different people but i'd take their advice over yours any day. His way seems to work on countless dogs. I'd say if something it not working it's because I'm doing it wrong, not because his method is bad. 


And once again, a trainer with all these credentials says that you can't consistently treat a dog within the second. You can? He's wrong?




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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> To me, a negative marker just means "not that - try again", it's not "no, no, bad dog!". When I say "oops!" it's actually in a neutral or cheerful tone of voice.
> 
> I do think that once he starts to grasp the concept of marker training and really GETS that the marker means that what he was doing at that exact second is what is earning the reward (are you SURE he understands that?), then delaying the reward by a bit will be less of an issue.
> 
> And it may be less of an issue with other commands too, it's just that right now you're working on something brand new where he's fully able to chose to do something else that's well established instead, that has a much longer history of reinforcement. Patience, grasshopper.


That's where im getting at, I want to make sure it will go away. 

I understand that a negative marker is not a punishment but doesn't this seem confusing? I asked for something, you did it. I was supposed to pay you for it but before I can pay you do something else and I say nope, no pay. 

He did do what I asked, didn't he?

I'm meeting with the trainer tomorrow, I will see what she says. I won't say anything, I wonder if she notices and thinks it's a problem. Maybe it's not


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

lalachka said:


> I didn't want to comment on the gasp but now I will. Gasp, Michael Ellis who has more experience and knowledge than most of you says that no matter how good you are you can't consistently deliver treats within a second and a half.
> 
> There will be many situations when you can't get the treats on time. That's the point of a marker, to mark so that you don't have to treat within the second a half.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


that is the general idea of marker training, but all dogs are different, and will offer different behaviours during a training session, so you have to be ready to adpat to YOUR dog and what YOUR dog is doing. 

IF between the marker and the treat, your dog is doing/offering a DIFFERENT behaviour than the one you marked, the dog will NOT make the association between behaviour - marker - treat. As far as he is concerned, he got a treat for sitting down, and that only re-inforces the sitting, and confuses the stand. 

People here may not be Michael Ellis, but many are pretty good dog trainers with a lot of experience under their belt. You can take what they say as additional info on top of what Michael has on his DVD, aimed at your situation and your dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Wendy, yes, exactly, for him sit is a automatic reaction. So any time he's not sure what I want he will sit which is good because at least he's trying to work me. 

I want him to stand so that I can move him around the apt))))) like is he's laying down and I have to sweep. I don't want to drag him, I read that it's not good, it's much better to have them comply with a word command. 

If he just offers the command or does this command instead of what I ask then there's no dilemma, then I mark with a negative. 
What's confusing me is that he did what I asked and I already told him that he did the right thing and at this point I owe him a treat. 
Though he should understand he's being treated for a stand (that's how the system is supposed to work) I'm afraid that I might be confusing him. 


Here's where this is coming from. I can imagine how hard it must be for him to understand what I'm asking and I don't want to confuse him unnecessarily 




WendyM said:


> Take my advice with a grain of salt because this is my first GSD and I have no idea what I'm doing. But I have this problem a little with my dog. For one thing, stand isn't as useful or fun, so we don't work on it as much, which is our fault. Because when I DO want her to stand (it's time to go outside before bed sleep puppy!) she doesn't have the near-automatic reaction that she does to sit or down. The other thing is that we work so much on down for so many different reasons, that if we have something she wants, she'll often throw herself (almost literally) into a down with either no command or a different command like sit. She thinks she can short cut all of our other bs and cut to the chase to the thing she just KNOWS we really want her to do. This is adorable, but not productive for training.
> 
> When she does it, I just look at her. I don't say or do anything. She'll realize she jumped the gun and she'll either sit or stand or keep laying there, but she calms down quite a bit because she's not getting the instant reward. Once she snaps out of "Oh boy, I'm down, I'm DOWN GIVE IT TO ME!" mode, I reissue the command, if I gave one. If I spoke it out loud the first time, I give the hand signal the second time and vice versa. I don't know why, I guess I want her to just keep in the habit that both of them work. And if I DO want her to be down, then I give her a different command, then YES! if she obeys, then down and YES! and treat. I want her to learn to stop anticipating what I want and pay attention to what I actually asked for. But her behavior also shows me where I'm weak. She does that because we've worked on down too much in comparison to other commands. So then we emphasize other commands more for a while (including boring stand) so we're not so predictable. These dogs are so darn smart that they think they can read minds.





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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> that is the general idea of marker training, but all dogs are different, and will offer different behaviours during a training session, so you have to be ready to adpat to YOUR dog and what YOUR dog is doing.
> 
> IF between the marker and the treat, your dog is doing/offering a DIFFERENT behaviour than the one you marked, the dog will NOT make the association between behaviour - marker - treat. As far as he is concerned, he got a treat for sitting down, and that only re-inforces the sitting, and confuses the stand.
> 
> People here may not be Michael Ellis, but many are pretty good dog trainers with a lot of experience under their belt. You can take what they say as additional info on top of what Michael has on his DVD, aimed at your situation and your dog.


Yes, that's what I was afraid of and that's why I posted, I was afraid that he's getting a different impression of what he got treated for. 

I know that people here have lots of knowledge, that's why I come here instead of writing to Michael, because I assume that people run into the same problems. There's a guy here, Baillif, he picks up everything I ask about Michael's system right away, he obviously had the same thoughts and questions at some point 

However, when I ask a question sarcasm is not necessary. The gasp wasn't called for. Especially considering that someone whose knowledge isn't questioned by anyone says that she's wrong. 

Even if she was right, it's just rude


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I listen to different people but i'd take their advice over yours any day. His way seems to work on countless dogs. I'd say if something it not working it's because I'm doing it wrong, not because his method is bad.
> 
> 
> And once again, a trainer with all these credentials says that you can't consistently treat a dog within the second. You can? He's wrong?
> ...


I never said his method was bad....but as many many many many people have pointed out to you, because a method works for someone, it does not mean that method, implemented by you, will work.....selzer gave the best example comparing that british lady to cesar milan, and how his methods work for him, but she just doesn't have the presence to make the same method work. I may love something a trainer does, but because of whatever limitations I have, cannot implement it properly...and when that doesn't work, I move on to something different....get some other opinions...and give them a shot....short of abusing the dog, I will pretty much try anything that is working for someone..., regardless of experience, why not? I may find something cool/new. But I am just as inpatient as my dog, if he is confused and not getting something after one session, I will probably try something a little different asap. 

But, to me, your problem of being unable to implement something is the treat not being available. My TD says to new people with treats, if you can't do it on time, without dropping treats, or without properly marking, you need to find a different method of reward/marking. You can mark the stand with a "yes, good, nice, brav, etc..." but the treat is just as much a marker....if you can't handle getting the treat out on time, don't use it at all. Otherwise you are marking the stand and the sit...just using verbal as one marker and treats as the other.

I've found through lots of observation, it's the people stuck in their ways or unable/unwilling to think outside the box, that have the biggest behavioral problems with their dogs. They keep beating their head against the wall trying the same stuff over and over. If I was a dog that would drive me nuts!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I can't think outside the box, not for dog training. I don't have the experience and the knowledge to not only come up with diff things but also decide whether something is good or bad. 

There are many things i'd think were bad ideas but they're not, there are dog behaviors that i'd interpret in some way and be wrong. That's why I try to follow to the letter. 

Yes, using treats comes down to impeccable timing, I don't have it. I'm working on it though. 

Yes, treats are a marker of their own but then why does he say that as long as uu mark a treat can come a little later. The mark must be made within the second, not the treat. 

Anyhow, I can work on always having treats in hand, that's not the issue. I was arguing about that point because I want to do everything by the book and he says that treating doesn't have to come right away. 

I must understand the mechanism of things, otherwise I can't do them right, that's why all the questions. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm meeting a trainer tomorrow so you guys might actually get a break lol. If we work well together then I will have someone else to bug. 



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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

Yes! Sookie does this and I do the same thing - when she jumps the gun by immediately going to a down before I give a command, I don't negative or neutral mark (only because I never considered an "oops") I just give her a different command that she has to stand up for (like high-five) and then treat her for that. And I feel the same - it is really cute, especially when her whole body is wriggling in excitement because I have a bone or ham or something, but I make her go through a variety of commands if she is jumping the gun to a down or down/ stay. Sometimes she goes into a sit, then a down, then gets up to high five, and I think, son of a .... She is going to perform every command she knows until I hand it over!! Then I really smother a laugh and just make her stay down until she calms down and move the routine to a different room to break her nutty focus. (I'm a novice, she is my third dog and the first with serious brains, so I'm learning as I go).


WendyM said:


> Take my advice with a grain of salt because this is my first GSD and I have no idea what I'm doing. But I have this problem a little with my dog. For one thing, stand isn't as useful or fun, so we don't work on it as much, which is our fault. Because when I DO want her to stand (it's time to go outside before bed sleep puppy!) she doesn't have the near-automatic reaction that she does to sit or down. The other thing is that we work so much on down for so many different reasons, that if we have something she wants, she'll often throw herself (almost literally) into a down with either no command or a different command like sit. She thinks she can short cut all of our other bs and cut to the chase to the thing she just KNOWS we really want her to do. This is adorable, but not productive for training.
> 
> When she does it, I just look at her. I don't say or do anything. She'll realize she jumped the gun and she'll either sit or stand or keep laying there, but she calms down quite a bit because she's not getting the instant reward. Once she snaps out of "Oh boy, I'm down, I'm DOWN GIVE IT TO ME!" mode, I reissue the command, if I gave one. If I spoke it out loud the first time, I give the hand signal the second time and vice versa. I don't know why, I guess I want her to just keep in the habit that both of them work. And if I DO want her to be down, then I give her a different command, then YES! if she obeys, then down and YES! and treat. I want her to learn to stop anticipating what I want and pay attention to what I actually asked for. But her behavior also shows me where I'm weak. She does that because we've worked on down too much in comparison to other commands. So then we emphasize other commands more for a while (including boring stand) so we're not so predictable. These dogs are so darn smart that they think they can read minds.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

lalachka said:


> What's confusing me is that he did what I asked and I already told him that he did the right thing and at this point I owe him a treat.
> Though he should understand he's being treated for a stand (that's how the system is supposed to work) I'm afraid that I might be confusing him.


Of course you're confusing him. That's ok, sometimes my dog confuses me and sometimes I confuse her. The important thing is not to reward after the wrong behavior, even if he already did the right behavior. Dogs can chain commands, so if you reward, then he thinks "stand" means "stand and then sit immediately". Better for him to miss a confirmation on the right behavior than get a confirmation for the wrong behavior. These things happen all the time. If I tell Morgan come and she's coming then "good good good Morgan good" when she detours then "nope". I never rewarded the good action (except vocally) because she didn't complete it properly. That's essentially what your pup is doing - he's not completing the command properly because he sits instead of continuing to stand. He's not disobeying, he just doesn't get it yet. 

If you're working with treats, then have them in your hand, not in a bag when you're teaching him for the first few times. It's ok that he knows they're there. You can just push them out of your hand one by one when he does the right thing. If he can't stop focusing on your hand, or if he can't stop chaining the command, or if it's just going off the rails, reset. Play with him for a bit or go to another location or work on some stuff he already knows (but NOT sit). Just sort of reset the whole thing so it doesn't become an exercise in frustration for both of you. And then try again, and be quicker with the treats. It's ok to only work on it three or four times so you don't have to have 20 treats in your hand. Treating has to come right away when they don't understand what you're asking. It's the marker and the treat in combination that tell the dog it did well. The market can be instant, the treat can't, because you're not holding the treat right under the dog's mouth when it obeys. Well, maybe that's a bad example with stand, because the hand signal is with my hand in front of the dog's mouth so I DO have the treat in my hand under its mouth, but hopefully you know what I mean. When the dog understands the action you're requesting, then you can mark the behavior and not have to be so "bang bang" with the treat. The dog knows it's done the right thing, so it can be a little more patient for its reward.

But again, I haven't watched any Michael Ellis so I don't want to contradict anything. Any insight I have comes from my failures with working with my dog. She's a GREAT dog with a lot of potential and I wish she didn't have to be my "practice" dog, but that's part of the price of being a first time owner.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh, and I forgot to add....my dogs aren't allowed to release themselves from a command like, "down, stay, sit, stand, etc." I have to give them a release command. SO once the dog knows the command, I say "break" and then they get the reward and praise. If my dog sits (when supposed to be standing), without me saying "break," he does not get the reward. So the command is the action, AND remaining that way until I say break. Hope I explained that right.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Sookie said:


> Yes! Sookie does this and I do the same thing - when she jumps the gun by immediately going to a down before I give a command, I don't negative or neutral mark (only because I never considered an "oops") I just give her a different command that she has to stand up for (like high-five) and then treat her for that. And I feel the same - it is really cute, especially when her whole body is wriggling in excitement because I have a bone or ham or something, but I make her go through a variety of commands if she is jumping the gun to a down or down/ stay. Sometimes she goes into a sit, then a down, then gets up to high five, and I think, son of a .... She is going to perform every command she knows until I hand it over!! Then I really smother a laugh and just make her stay down until she calms down and move the routine to a different room to break her nutty focus. (I'm a novice, she is my third dog and the first with serious brains, so I'm learning as I go).


Lol, I call that "pogo-ing"! Morgan will fling herself into a down, then pop up into a sit then bam! back down, then a quick stand, then back down again and her whole body is vibrating. The hardest part is not cracking up. I'm not always successful.  But then we both calm down and restart. This dog is a ridiculous amount of work, but she sure is fun sometimes.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

WendyM said:


> Of course you're confusing him. That's ok, sometimes my dog confuses me and sometimes I confuse her. The important thing is *not to reward after the wrong behavior, even if he already did the right behavior*. Dogs can chain commands, so if you reward, then he thinks "stand" means "stand and then sit immediately". Better for him to miss a confirmation on the right behavior than get a confirmation for the wrong behavior. These things happen all the time. *If I tell Morgan come and she's coming then "good good good Morgan good" when she detours then "nope"*. I never rewarded the good action (except vocally) because she didn't complete it properly. *That's essentially what your pup is doing - he's not completing the command properly because he sits instead of continuing to stand.* He's not disobeying, he just doesn't get it yet.
> 
> If you're working with treats, then have them in your hand, not in a bag when you're teaching him for the first few times. It's ok that he knows they're there. You can just push them out of your hand one by one when he does the right thing. If he can't stop focusing on your hand, or if he can't stop chaining the command, or if it's just going off the rails, reset. Play with him for a bit or go to another location or work on some stuff he already knows (but NOT sit). Just sort of reset the whole thing so it doesn't become an exercise in frustration for both of you. And then try again, and be quicker with the treats. It's ok to only work on it three or four times so you don't have to have 20 treats in your hand. Treating has to come right away when they don't understand what you're asking. It's the marker and the treat in combination that tell the dog it did well. The market can be instant, the treat can't, because you're not holding the treat right under the dog's mouth when it obeys. Well, maybe that's a bad example with stand, because the hand signal is with my hand in front of the dog's mouth so I DO have the treat in my hand under its mouth, but hopefully you know what I mean. *When the dog understands the action you're requesting, then you can mark the behavior and not have to be so "bang bang" with the treat. The dog knows it's done the right thing, so it can be a little more patient for its reward.*
> 
> But again, I haven't watched any Michael Ellis so I don't want to contradict anything. Any insight I have comes from my failures with working with my dog. She's a GREAT dog with a lot of potential and I wish she didn't have to be my "practice" dog, but that's part of the price of being a first time owner.


 
thank you!!!! that's what i was looking for, i wasn't sure what the right thing to do was. aside from having treats all the time, i was wondering what should be done when a dog did the right command and then did the wrong one.

lol, i love the detours, i stand there with my arms wide open smiling and he just keeps going)))))))
but you're right, why didn't i think of that as an example? it's the same situation.

that's another point i was missing. you're right, at first the dogs get the treats right away, he definitely has them ready and doesn't make them wait. so i'm sure i'm extremely clumsy and out of sync.
so i will focus on having treats ready everytime i give a command.


you made me remember another question i had, when i ask for a focus, once i say YES and give him a treat he breaks the focus to look at the treat or my hand. what do you do?


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

Perhaps the treat can come a tiny bit later as long as the dog is still performing the requested behaviour? So if you asked for a stand, marked it, fumble for a treat, dog is still standing, fumble, give the treat while dog is still standing, that is an acceptable 3 sec delay. But if the dog sits while you are fumbling, it no longer is an acceptable 3 sec delay, because the dog is no longer performing the behaviour? That would be my interpretation, and why I only treat when Sookie is still doing what I asked (I also only ask for stuff I am training with treats on when I have treats in hand or in the kangaroo pouch of a sweatshirt in hand so it is immediate and eliminates any confusion).


lalachka said:


> Yes, treats are a marker of their own but then why does he say that as long as uu mark a treat can come a little later. The mark must be made within the second, not the treat.
> 
> Anyhow, I can work on always having treats in hand, that's not the issue. I was arguing about that point because I want to do everything by the book and he says that treating doesn't have to come right away.
> 
> ...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Oh, and I forgot to add....my dogs aren't allowed to release themselves from a command like, "down, stay, sit, stand, etc." I have to give them a release command. SO once the dog knows the command, I say "break" and then they get the reward and praise. If my dog sits (when supposed to be standing), without me saying "break," he does not get the reward. So the command is the action, AND remaining that way until I say break. Hope I explained that right.


that's another thing i want to do, i don't want to have to say STAY for anything, i want him to assume that a command means do that until released.

keep in mind, even though he's 9 months i'm just starting with consistent training, so you can say he knows nothing.

so how is this done? how do i teach him to stay in a command no matter what? few seconds at a time? say NOPE every time he's about to get up?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sookie said:


> Perhaps the treat can come a tiny bit later as long as the dog is still performing the requested behaviour? So if you asked for a stand, marked it, fumble for a treat, dog is still standing, fumble, give the treat while dog is still standing, that is an acceptable 3 sec delay. But if the dog sits while you are fumbling, it no longer is an acceptable 3 sec delay, because the dog is no longer performing the behaviour? That would be my interpretation, and why I only treat when Sookie is still doing what I asked (I also only ask for stuff I am training with treats on when I have treats in hand or in the kangaroo pouch of a sweatshirt in hand so it is immediate and eliminates any confusion).


lol, yes, you're right, now it makes sense. i really couldn't solve this one lol

my treats are also in a pouch, one of those that stays wide open and can be snapped shut. and still, my clumsy self sometimes fumbles.

i keep saying, i have way more to learn than he does


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> you made me remember another question i had, when i ask for a focus, once i say YES and give him a treat he breaks the focus to look at the treat or my hand. what do you do?


Of course, it's pretty hard to continue staring into your eyes while he's eating! The marker ends the behavior anyway, so you've given him permission to look away from you and eat the treat once you've marked the behavior.



lalachka said:


> that's another thing i want to do, i don't want to have to say STAY for anything, i want him to assume that a command means do that until released.
> 
> keep in mind, even though he's 9 months i'm just starting with consistent training, so you can say he knows nothing.
> 
> so how is this done? how do i teach him to stay in a command no matter what? few seconds at a time? say NOPE every time he's about to get up?


Ideally, you release him BEFORE he gets up. Having him break and be put back in position numerous times is going to just create a behavior chain. Start very small, give the command and treat several times in rapid succession, and then release him. Do this a lot before starting to increase the amount of time. If you go too fast he's going to break position before being released, and the less he's allowed to do that, the faster he'll learn. If you can catch him when he's merely _thinking_ about breaking (you might see a little tension in his muscles as if he's about to pop up vs looking relaxed) you can use a negative marker if you like, and then "good" (not your marker word) when he relaxes into position. Or not, it's up to you.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

It's so easy to mess this stuff up without really thinking about it, at least it was for me. When we fed Morgan, we used to stay her across the room while we prepared her food and then use come to release her and bring her over to her crate to eat. Worked famously, until one day she stopped staying and just came. It didn't matter how much I put her back, she wouldn't stay, although she WOULD stay in other situations. And then I finally realized, duh, we're rewarding the _come_, not the _stay_, without properly establishing them individually first. There was no affirmation or treat for the first part, so she didn't realize that part was just as important. She was just saving me some effort.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Just an FYI.... the <gasp> was meant as a poke at marker trainers in general who often feel free shaping or capturing are the only correct training options.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

gagsd said:


> Just an FYI.... the <gasp> was meant as a poke at marker trainers in general who often feel free shaping or capturing are the only correct training options.


Then I'm sorry, I didn't know about this and thought it was about the fact that I can't have treats ready on time. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I can't think outside the box, not for dog training. I don't have the experience and the knowledge to not only come up with diff things but also decide whether something is good or bad. (snip)
> 
> (snip)Yes, treats are a marker of their own but then why does he say that as long as uu mark a treat can come a little later. The mark must be made within the second, not the treat.
> 
> Anyhow, I can work on always having treats in hand, that's not the issue. I was arguing about that point because I want to do everything by the book and he says that treating doesn't have to come right away.


It's great to have a training system to follow, especially if you're inexperienced. But I bet if you asked Michael Ellis he'd be the first one to tell you that you're not training a system, you're training a _dog_. And all dogs are individuals, so you have to look at the dog in front of you and be willing to tweak your system based on what's working and what's not. Doing it by the book sounds great, but no method is or should be so rigid that you can't or shouldn't take some liberties with it in order to help your dog succeed. 

As Mary said in the very first reply on this thread:



> In theory, the "mark" while standing is enough.... but in reality the placement of reward is equally as important and rewarding in-position is imperative during certain parts of the training phase..... IMO


And Lucia said a few posts later:



> When a dog is learning something new, both the timing of the marker and the reward is very important. So be ready with treats in hand to reward promptly - the marker is great for marking the EXACT behaviour you want, but if the reward is not forthcoming, it will confuse the dog.


I know you don't have the experience to know what to do differently, but you've asked here and been given lots of good information by some knowledgeable and experienced people, and they're all telling you that sometimes the timing and placement of the reward ARE just as important as the marker. Believe them!

Does that mean that Michael Ellis is wrong? No, what he said is generally true - as long as the timing of your marker is spot on, the treat delivery does not necessarily need to be immediate. But the key word here is _generally_. Depending on what you're training, it _can't_ always be immediate. Think of distance training: if your dog is across the room from you you can't reward him instantly because he's too far away. If you're working on a recall you'd start by marking the instant your dog turns towards you, but he's not going to get the treat until he gets to you. But regardless of whether or not you _should_ be able to delay the reward, if your dog is just not making the proper association then getting that treat to him as quickly as possible can help.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Michael Ellis can afford to tweak, he knows dogs inside and out. If I start tweaking nothing good will come of it)))))

I was confused about him saying that, the way I took it that sometimes I can take my time as long as I marked. 

I think it was Wendy who explained that yes, later on I can take a little longer but not at the beginning. And now that I think of it in the videos he doesn't take his time with treats, it's instant delivery. 


However, he did say that phrase and it was enough for me to misinterpret it and do it wrong.

And you're right, he uses the same example, dog across the room for marking and treating later. 

Now I understand and there's no confusion. 




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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Also, I wasn't arguing when I originally posted. I was just looking for someone to explain. 

Later, after I misinterpreted the gasp thing was when I became defensive and started arguing. 

And thank you on the tips for teaching to stay until break


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I think it was Wendy who explained that yes, later on I can take a little longer but not at the beginning.


And Mary, and Lucia, and me. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...problem-when-marker-training.html#post4240522



Cassidy's Mom said:


> How long have you been marker training him? It may be that he doesn't understand the concept well enough yet if it's still pretty new to him. And also at 9 months old he has some behaviors that are very strong (sit for a treat), and others (stand) that are brand new. It makes sense that if he doesn't get the reward fast enough he's going to start second guessing himself and offering up something that has been consistently been reinforced in the past.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...problem-when-marker-training.html#post4240618



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I do think that once he starts to grasp the concept of marker training and really GETS that the marker means that what he was doing at that exact second is what is earning the reward (are you SURE he understands that?), then delaying the reward by a bit will be less of an issue.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The beauty of marker training is only seen when the dog understands the marker is a precursor to a reward. In effect the marker BECOMES the reward. Pavlovian style. 

Usually when starting marker training you take a few days/weeks just saying the marker word/clicking, and treating simultaneously. The dog then associates the marker with the reward. Once you have done that, then you add a gap of 1 second in between marker and reward, then 2, then 3 and so on. So that when the marker happens, the dog has already been taught that the reward us coming. All without ever asking for any behavior. In the beginning you just have to teach the dog the marker. 

I then move forward to something easy. Eye contact. YES, immediate treat. I don't care what the dogs body us doing. If he gives me eye contact YES, immediate reward. Then once he us consistently offering eye contact then I start to add a second in between YES and the treat. Then 2 then 3 and so on. 

I don't just start issues commands and rewarding a marker that I have not properly associated yet. 

Once I am at the phase where basic commands are learned, if they do wrong " EH" and then placed in the correct position. 

I have had great success with marker training integrated with verbal correction. Once they understand the marker, anything they love can be the reward. I recently switched from food to toy in heeling. Still " free shaping" but when he happens to be in the right position YES, toy dropped in his mouth.




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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> And Mary, and Lucia, and me.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...problem-when-marker-training.html#post4240522
> 
> ...


Lolol i don't know how I missed that.

It probably takes a few times said with diff words for me to process anything))))))

Then thank you all, sorry)))))


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Michael Ellis can afford to tweak, he knows dogs inside and out. If I start tweaking nothing good will come of it)))))
> 
> I was confused about him saying that, the way I took it that sometimes I can take my time as long as I marked.
> 
> ...


He isn't the only one who can "tweak" things. If you are so concerned about doing it "right" one way, well, then the time to get a perfect method down was BEFORE getting a dog. 

Sabo is far from my first dog. I started reading training books and playing around with my dogs when I was 10 (new baby in the house, I had to occupy myself somewhat, kid kept crying!)...At the time I had a doberman and a husky mix. I got older and had two great danes. We adopted Metro. With all those dogs it was basic commands Sit/Stay/Down/Kisses/Paw/Go/Easy your basic "I need to make some sort of communication" training needs. 

Sabo--well we are trying to do SOMETHING so I have to learn how to tweak what the trainer tells me to do, and what I learn here, What youtube shows me and what books tell me. I am no expert, neither are you--yet you CAN tweak. This is all about conditioning. Dont be down on yourself. People here, youtube and trainers are all ideas and schools of thought. No one is right or wrong. 

As far as wanting to teach "stand" so you can sweep, why not teach "place" so he actually moves out of your way? Without treats or anything all of my dogs have learned "excuse me" means get out of my way, you're in my space. Even with Sabo, we say "Excuse me" and keep moving, and he moves. He's learned that when he hears that we can't stop right now to go around him, so he needs to get out of the way.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Michael Ellis has a great rep as a dog/people trainer. No doubt about it. Ed Frawley, I see as more of a shrewd businessman than great trainer. I sure remember when he was dissing marker training big time (after it was well established).

My one word of advice, though, is that there may be folks equally as good on this board and no ONE trainer has it all. Seen that enough in SAR where folks get their "gurus" and ignore all else. I think the best dog trainers take what they can and realize everybody has something to offer. When I go to a seminar I am happy to take home one new idea but never shift my dog training to a new model.

Also, some of the best are working with dogs like you may not have and a great trainer needs a broad base of experience with all types.

Glad you are working one on one with someone though because a good teacher is going to watch you with your dog and correct YOUR mistakes. Dogs are pretty honest. You are typically the one messing up. You WILL learn a lot more hands on that from a video.


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

erfunhouse said:


> As far as wanting to teach "stand" so you can sweep, why not teach "place" so he actually moves out of your way? Without treats or anything all of my dogs have learned "excuse me" means get out of my way, you're in my space. Even with Sabo, we say "Excuse me" and keep moving, and he moves. He's learned that when he hears that we can't stop right now to go around him, so he needs to get out of the way.


This is an example of an unintentional command in my house! I talk to my animals a lot without really thinking about it, and Sookie's favorite spot to lay down is right in front of the door to the lounge (installed so she could see the cats through a mesh panel we put in the door). So whenever I want to leave or enter the room I inevitably, without thinking about it, say "excuse me" while nudging her out of the way with my foot and the door. I just noticed a couple of weeks ago that now whenever I say "excuse me" she shifts herself out of the way before I do anything. I love it! No marker, no reward, just association over a long time. Makes me smile every time - I am sure if I had set out to teach her that one it would have taken ages!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

lalachka said:


> Yes, treats are a marker of their own but then why does he say that as long as uu mark a treat can come a little later. The mark must be made within the second, not the treat.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


once the dog understands marker training, then yes, this is true. When learning something new, especially when marker training is new to the dog, then the timing of the treat is everything. 
Basically, over time, you are going to phase out the treat all together so, in a way, the marker becomes it's own reward. 
Your dog doesn't understand yet that "yes" or the click of the clicker means that he has done right. That is why the timing is important. It's also why I use "yes" instead of a clicker. I'm horrible at getting the click at the right time. If you are fumbling around in your pouch trying to get out a treat, it's much more than a couple seconds and your dog's mind has already moved on. Better in the beginning to have it in hand while you are actively training. Give the treat and immediately take the next one out.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

WendyM said:


> Lol, I call that "pogo-ing"! Morgan will fling herself into a down, then pop up into a sit then bam! back down, then a quick stand, then back down again and her whole body is vibrating. The hardest part is not cracking up. I'm not always successful.  But then we both calm down and restart. This dog is a ridiculous amount of work, but she sure is fun sometimes.


Singe does this when he isn't actually listening to what I'm saying. He's like "oh mom told me to do something" so he will do everything he knows in rapid succession hoping to hit on the right behavior. "heel position" is his fall back behavior. I wait for him to finish and then re-give the original command which he does immediately because now he is actually listening.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

This may be helpful for the OP in understanding....

I use marker training. LOVE it and often teach heel with no leash, just a loose dog, clicker, and treats..... keeping the treats in a treat bag rather than my hand.

Some dogs, particularly really drivey, pushy dogs that have a tendency to forge, hear that <click> and immediately break heel position and come in front of me.

Now, if I allow that to happen, I reward when the dog is in front of me rather than "heel position." Particularly bad idea for a dog already having issues coming too far forward.

So I generally start these dogs with a treat in my hand (which some purists consider luring), and/or I will "click-pivot in front of the dog-then treat." The second takes ME out of position, but keeps the dog in position. 

Neither is "textbook" for shaping/marker training, but both solve the problem of over-exuberance in the dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

gagsd said:


> So I generally start these dogs with a treat in my hand (which some purists consider luring), and/or I will "click-pivot in front of the dog-then treat." The second takes ME out of position, but keeps the dog in position.
> 
> Neither is "textbook" for shaping/marker training, but both solve the problem of over-exuberance in the dog.


this is exactly what my trainer recommends. She has the dog pop up to get the treat so it stays in position. She also recommends the pivot in front of the dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Yes, treats are a marker of their own but then why does he say that as long as uu mark a treat can come a little later. The mark must be made within the second, not the treat.


I can give you an example of this. I was in a clicker class for the first time, and I wanted to see if it 'worked' so I decided to teach "drop it" with the clicker. I had my puppy chase a ball, and then come back to me with it. When he got back, I showed him the second ball, and he'd let go of the first one. I had a plate of treats on the table. Every time his jaws relaxed and he dropped a ball, I clicked. He did get a treat too, but not at that precise moment when he dropped the ball, obviously. He learned "drop it" in under 5 minutes, I'm not kidding! He knew what the click meant, so he knew that was the behavior I was looking for.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

erfunhouse said:


> He isn't the only one who can "tweak" things. If you are so concerned about doing it "right" one way, well, then the time to get a perfect method down was BEFORE getting a dog.
> 
> Snipped
> 
> As far as wanting to teach "stand" so you can sweep, why not teach "place" so he actually moves out of your way


He's def not the only one, he was given as an example by someone but anyone who knows dogs can do it. I don't think I can yet. 

Getting the system down before I got a dog wouldn't help. I know it in theory very well, as you see I can quote from memory, but I'm learning that with a dog diff things come up. 


It's not about stand per se, it just happened that this was the first command I realized this with. I was just wondering what to do if after marking and between a treat he does a diff behavior



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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> Michael Ellis has a great rep as a dog/people trainer. No doubt about it. Ed Frawley, I see as more of a shrewd businessman than great trainer. I sure remember when he was dissing marker training big time (after it was well established).
> 
> My one word of advice, though, is that there may be folks equally as good on this board and no ONE trainer has it all. Seen that enough in SAR where folks get their "gurus" and ignore all else. I think the best dog trainers take what they can and realize everybody has something to offer. When I go to a seminar I am happy to take home one new idea but never shift my dog training to a new model.
> 
> ...


Funny you say that about Frawley. I can always respect honesty and someone saying that I used to say this and I was wrong. Just yesterday I was retreading his marker article where he says that back in the days he used to dis marker training. He's like 'this is not the first time I stuck a foot in my mouth and def won't be the last'. And he goes on to explain his problem with marker training, lack of corrections. 

Since we are talking about it, question. He says that marker training came to dog world from sea world and explains that the reason they do without corrections is because you can't correct a killer whale. Then he says that for dogs it doesn't work that way. 

Why? If you can train a killer whale with no corrections then why not a dog? (I believe in corrections by the way)

Anyway, so yeah, he might be a businessman now but it doesn't change the fact that he has a huge amt of experience and knowledge. I read and reread almost all his articles, that's how I found Michael Ellis. I like them both. 


I'm def the one messing up lol, no question about it. My dog is doing fine. 

And yes, I do catch myself doing this, doing it one way and being close minded to everything else. I like Michael's way and I was hoping to stay with it. So I come here asking for clarification on things I don't get


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sookie said:


> This is an example of an unintentional command in my house! I talk to my animals a lot without really thinking about it, and Sookie's favorite spot to lay down is right in front of the door to the lounge (installed so she could see the cats through a mesh panel we put in the door). So whenever I want to leave or enter the room I inevitably, without thinking about it, say "excuse me" while nudging her out of the way with my foot and the door. I just noticed a couple of weeks ago that now whenever I say "excuse me" she shifts herself out of the way before I do anything. I love it! No marker, no reward, just association over a long time. Makes me smile every time - I am sure if I had set out to teach her that one it would have taken ages!


Lol I wasn't really teaching the stand for that reason, I'm going by Michael's video and they teach stand or maybe I read it somewhere. So I'm doing it too. I guess I thought of a bad example. I have no problem moving him inside the house. He gets no treats inside the house unless training. 


ETA OK it just came to me. I'm teaching a down from a stand, so I down him then stand him them down him and so on

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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sorry glitch


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> once the dog understands marker training, then yes, this is true. When learning something new, especially when marker training is new to the dog, then the timing of the treat is everything.
> Basically, over time, you are going to phase out the treat all together so, in a way, the marker becomes it's own reward.
> Your dog doesn't understand yet that "yes" or the click of the clicker means that he has done right. That is why the timing is important. It's also why I use "yes" instead of a clicker. I'm horrible at getting the click at the right time. If you are fumbling around in your pouch trying to get out a treat, it's much more than a couple seconds and your dog's mind has already moved on. Better in the beginning to have it in hand while you are actively training. Give the treat and immediately take the next one out.


I am. This is an example of me taking a sentence out of huge video and misinterpreting it. I assumed that since YES should be a reward of its own then I can take 5 mins with a treat and I actually thought I was doing well with a few secs lol
Most of the time I have them ready instant but sometimes I don't. This will be my goal for now. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> Singe does this when he isn't actually listening to what I'm saying. He's like "oh mom told me to do something" so he will do everything he knows in rapid succession hoping to hit on the right behavior. "heel position" is his fall back behavior. I wait for him to finish and then re-give the original command which he does immediately because now he is actually listening.


This is really cute))))) I couldn't stop myself from laughing and hugging him which I know is wrong 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

gagsd said:


> This may be helpful for the OP in understanding....
> 
> I use marker training. LOVE it and often teach heel with no leash, just a loose dog, clicker, and treats..... keeping the treats in a treat bag rather than my hand.
> 
> ...


Lol yep, same situation. 

I'm afraid to think of the number of questions that will come up when I move to the complicated stuff. I'm only at sit, stand and down. The heel position will be a bad experience))))) I dabbled in it and it didn't look nice. He'd sit facing me but to the left of me lolol

I left it alone for now


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> this is exactly what my trainer recommends. She has the dog pop up to get the treat so it stays in position. She also recommends the pivot in front of the dog.


I can't see 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I can give you an example of this. I was in a clicker class for the first time, and I wanted to see if it 'worked' so I decided to teach "drop it" with the clicker. I had my puppy chase a ball, and then come back to me with it. When he got back, I showed him the second ball, and he'd let go of the first one. I had a plate of treats on the table. Every time his jaws relaxed and he dropped a ball, I clicked. He did get a treat too, but not at that precise moment when he dropped the ball, obviously. He learned "drop it" in under 5 minutes, I'm not kidding! He knew what the click meant, so he knew that was the behavior I was looking for.


Apparently not with us)))) maybe I didn't charge the mark correctly
Everyone is saying it will happen, I will work on having treats in hand for now


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gagsd said:


> So I generally start these dogs with a treat in my hand (which some purists consider luring), and/or *I will "click-pivot in front of the dog-then treat." The second takes ME out of position, but keeps the dog in position.*


What a great idea, I've never heard of that before! Learn something new every day..... I've only done the pivot thing when teaching a "wait" or sit or down out of motion, never for heel.

Lalachka, when I was mentioned tweaking I wasn't talking about making major changes to a training method, I was referring more to common sense adaptations when things aren't working according to theory. Theory is wonderful, but if it's not working for your dog then do what you need to do to help him understand. In this case, it should have been pretty clear that if he's consistently sitting after the stand before you can deliver the treat, you need to deliver the treat faster, so he's still in the position that you've marked. Regardless of how much time you "should" have to deliver that treat, it's important to deliver it while he's still in position. 

You don't need to be a dog training expert to figure that out, so don't be afraid to trust your instincts and try something else in order to be more clear to your dog when he's obviously not getting it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> What a great idea, I've never heard of that before! Learn something new every day..... I've only done the pivot thing when teaching a "wait" or sit or down out of motion, never for heel.
> 
> Lalachka, when I was mentioned tweaking I wasn't talking about making major changes to a training method, I was referring more to common sense adaptations when things aren't working according to theory. Theory is wonderful, but if it's not working for your dog then do what you need to do to help him understand. In this case, it should have been pretty clear that if he's consistently sitting after the stand before you can deliver the treat, you need to deliver the treat faster, so he's still in the position that you've marked. Regardless of how much time you "should" have to deliver that treat, it's important to deliver it while he's still in position.
> 
> You don't need to be a dog training expert to figure that out, so don't be afraid to trust your instincts and try something else in order to be more clear to your dog when he's obviously not getting it.


I don't understand, what's a great idea. I took it as luring the dog with the treat in heel position, no? Can you explain the mechanics? I must be missing something. 


And apparently you do)))))) I kept going back to what I heard him say and assumed I did something wrong. So I came here to ask what. 

It's not about the treats, I do have them on time 99% of the time However, the few times I didn't and this happened I got confused. I remembered him saying that mark should be enough and wanted to know why my dog doesn't feel that way. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I don't understand, what's a great idea. I took it as luring the dog with the treat in heel position, no? Can you explain the mechanics? I must be missing something.


Did you notice the part I bolded when I quoted her?

Here's the whole thing: 



gagsd said:


> Some dogs, particularly really drivey, pushy dogs that have a tendency to forge, hear that <click> and immediately break heel position and come in front of me.
> 
> Now, if I allow that to happen, I reward when the dog is in front of me rather than "heel position." Particularly bad idea for a dog already having issues coming too far forward.
> 
> So I generally start these dogs with a treat in my hand (which some purists consider luring), and/or I will "click-pivot in front of the dog-then treat." The second takes ME out of position, but keeps the dog in position.


She's talking about luring heel with a treat, and drivey, pushy dogs that sometimes forge ahead when they hear the click and/or go to a front position rather than remaining in heel position. Same thing as your dog breaking his stand and going into a sit after you've clicked but before you've delivered the reward. Make sense so far? She doesn't want to reward the dog for breaking heel position because then she's rewarding a forge or a front rather than the heel. 

So what she does is pivot AS she's clicking, so she's facing the dog, blocking him from moving forward or changing position. _She_ moves out of position, the dog does not, so he's being rewarded for the behavior she's marked.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Did you notice the part I bolded when I quoted her?
> 
> Here's the whole thing:
> 
> ...


First of all, sorry, I don't know how I missed this. 

And second, no))))) I don't get it. If she breaks the heel position then the dog is not heeling anymore. 

Sorry)))) I'm slow. Can you explain?

Also, what's pivot as you click? What's a pivot? I just know pivot tables.


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