# Question about owning this breed.



## SadTales (Jul 20, 2016)

I apologize to everyone, if this is in the wrong section of the forums.

I have a question, what is truly like, owning this breed.. In terms of temperament. Can a confident German Shepherd dog walk calm in public, without the need to nip, and or bite, and relax near people, and play without having to target someone / biting their own handler?

Or, is it a breed, that must be handled by incredibly experienced handlers?

I ask this question, as I am in-love with the breed, but, because of being a first time buyer ... Bad mistakes were made, and my dog, is incredibly fear aggressive (one of the worst cases). I love him with all my heart, but
because I love the breed, in the future.... 10 Years from now.. I would love to own another one.. As it's the only breed, I am incredibly attached and want.

I am curious.. What owning a properly bred Shepherd would be like, simply because.. I am terrified of going through all of this again. I did do my research on Shepherds, but, owning a fear aggressive dog, really changes my outlook on them for the worse, and my mind goes blank on all the research I did.

So my question for all of you is,
what is it like to own a CONFIDENT Shepherd? Can they be walked in public without showing aggression.. Can they be near strangers without the need for aggression? Do they make good dogs for someone who wants to bring their dog everywhere? Do they ever show aggression towards their handler, or other dogs?

I have many questions.. Another one being, were you a first time dog owner when you got your Shepherd? Or experienced, and what do you believe this breed is mostly directed for? And what is it like to owna confident Shep.

Thank you, all.
I am just incredibly curious, because of my bad luck.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

The right dog is worth every second. I don't worry about my dog biting someone out of fear at all, no handler aggression, etc. I'm comfortable with my daughter around my dog. This breed done right is amazing.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm curious. What did you do with your dog initially? How old is your dog? Were the mistakes your fault? What type of breeder did you go to? 
I believe in off leash time, confidence building, and balance in the upbringing. Training, yet freedom.


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## giebel (Jul 28, 2016)

Hey Sad Tales,

The first thing I wanted to say is don't give up. How old is your dog? What kind of support have you sought out.My dog was fear aggressive but I worked him out of it. I have never met a perfect dog or a perfect handler , it is all a learning experience whether you are experienced or a newbie.Find a local reputable trainer and get in touch with your local German Shepherd Club. Have you already done that? There are many resources that can save you and your dogs life. It is never to late. If ultimately you feel your dog is to much to handle contact a local established German Shepherd rescue group who could adopt your dog out. Keep in touch. You obviously care about your dog or you wouldnt be on this site.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Singe is a 6 year old (intact) Czech-line GSD. We do "Meet the Breed" events with our local kennel club. He's a titled Therapy Dog. And we just go out to wander the town at least once a week. That's on top of all of the dog events we also do. 
Being intact, he can sometimes be snarky with other males but for the most part he ignores them. 

Have you had your current dog evaluated by a trainer or behaviorist who is experienced with the breed? Many dogs can be managed with the right techniques. Others simply aren't wired right but steps can be taken to minimize the risk in public. 









Working the crowd at the annual Turkey Trot parade









Met some strange looking "dogs" at the event too!









ran into some really BIG "dogs" on a walk through the neighborhood (first time seeing full size horses)


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I've had GSDs since the 1980's, and the only dog that wasn't 100% trustworthy with other people was a rescue my room-mate found wandering the streets of Scarborough. She was fine if someone didn't try to get right in her face, or hug her, or try to get into her 'kennel' (our house or car) without being invited. Even when she did 'go off' on someone, it was more bluster than a full-out attack. The few times she actually bit someone, it was never more than a warning that left a scratch or red mark on the skin.

Fear aggression is NOT normal for the breed, and it's something that's crept in due to breeders paying more attention to showring points than temperament!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SadTales said:


> I ask this question, as I am in-love with the breed, but, because of being a first time buyer ... Bad mistakes were made, and my dog, is incredibly fear aggressive (one of the worst cases). I love him with all my heart, but
> because I love the breed, in the future.... 10 Years from now.. I would love to own another one.. As it's the only breed, I am incredibly attached and want.


Bad mistakes were made??? Hmm well don't wanna pry. But you know ... crap happens, what's done is done. The past is not important now but what you do going forward is.

You appeared to have landed in the deep end of the pool with your current dog?? I'd be happy to try and help you swim out if you'd like?? The only things required are the ability to walk your dog, a bit of determination and the ability to make better choice with the dog in front of you.  

As for what you seem to consider to be a as I put it ... "my cross to bear ie ... ten years of obligation to a mistake?? For me ... I am a Bully Breeds guy and I added a "Big furry dog with a pointy face to pack" (my first OS GSD) ... that did not work out so well in the short run! But in the long run ... it worked out fine. Rocky and my story is here. :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

Rocky and I got her'er done as it were and we'er not that special. I'd be happy to try and help you out ... if you'd like and welcome aboard in anycase and sorry it's a bumpy ride.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

All of my comments hinge on one major component: how much the dog has been trained. Below, I am assuming a dog that has been intentionally trained on how to behave (if you don't teach them, they don't know).



SadTales said:


> So my question for all of you is,
> what is it like to own a CONFIDENT Shepherd?


Like having any well-behaved dog plus a little more. When GSDs get into the groove and they're confident that they (and you) can handle whatever comes at them, it becomes almost like a partnership. They act with dignity, tranquility, and know just what to do (because you've told them). It takes a few years before puppies get to that point, though.



> Can they be walked in public without showing aggression..


Of course. Jack gets to come with us to the market, on trails, dog-friendly stores/bars/restaurants. He likes going and watching the people, and he usually gets heavily rewarded for his good behavior (dog treats, bird feet, pieces of yummy meats like bacon, or in the case of trails, off-leash time.



> Can they be near strangers without the need for aggression?


Yes, provided there is no logical reason for them to display aggression. Like someone threatening you or acting strange towards you.

Jack has no problem with being around strangers, though he's hesitant about strangers petting him. He'll usually duck away when someone reaches over his head and if they persist, he barks at the person (we correct this, and he's getting better, but I think that's also an understandable response--we allow one bark and then he has to sit and be quiet). But we just ask folks to let him sniff them first, and then he's good to go and will accept petting very happily.

However, if there's a small child that absolutely loves him, he'll be the friendliest, most playful, and gentle dog. No reservations. He loves my neighbor's 3-year-old, and treats her gently while doing everything in his power to keep her giggling and clapping.



> Do they make good dogs for someone who wants to bring their dog everywhere?


Yes. GSDs, when well trained, are some of the BEST dogs to take everywhere. Primarily because they're so handler-focused and are more interested in what you're doing vs everyone else.



> Do they ever show aggression towards their handler, or other dogs?


Unprovoked? No. Provoked? Yes, if they can't avoid confrontation first.

Jack prefers to avoid conflict where possible, but I've seen him unafraid of pushing back against another dog that's being a bully to him. 

He's also gotten very annoyed with us on occasion (like clipping his back nails). It's always our fault for putting him in that kind of position an not listening to his warnings or telling him what to do first. Accidents happen, and we both back up and take a breather before trying the thing again later (if it was something we need to do). There's never any ill will afterwards.

And when I mean the above, I don't mean a serious attack. Just growling in protest or trying to wrestle out of the way. He's snapped a couple of times, but always with perfect restraint. Never anything more than teeth touching the skin (or neck in the case of a dog). That restraint had to be taught when he was very small--exactly how much pressure to ever apply to human skin.

Now, there is something he does that LOOKS like aggression, but is pure overexcitement. Whenever he runs outside and gets very hyper, he'll sometimes grab our ankles or arm, and chomp a little too hard.



> Another one being, were you a first time dog owner when you got your Shepherd? Or experienced, and what do you believe this breed is mostly directed for?


Not a first time dog owner, but a first time GSD owner. Which might as well mean I'm a first time dog owner. XD

Shepherds need a job, somewhere, somehow, sometime. They are bred to WANT to work. They love working, especially when they understand the tasks and the rules of engagement. Work can mean anything that involves focus, training, and physical execution of some kind of task.

And this falls into all other realms of their lives. They're a breed that thrives on rules. They like rules, and they like knowing the rules. This makes them happy, obedient, and confident. I think this is why you've probably read that GSDs need a "firm" handler. By firm, they mean that you're willing to establish rules and keep to those rules. I've learned you really can't pussyfoot around with these dogs. You can't let them just get away with bad behavior. They seriously need good leadership or they'll start making decisions of their own accord. They aren't like a lab that will automatically default to your will. Shepherds only default to your will if you prove that you're worth listening to. That really doesn't take much, and it doesn't take heavy-handed treatment; it just requires clarity and consistency.


But then, I've got nothing on the people on this forum who've owned GSDs all their lives... They know even better than I.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

No, fear aggression is not the norm. I'm sorry you are dealing with it. I also have a fearful reactive/aggressive dog, and I know it's not fun. What I can say is finding a good trainer really helps. The fear is still there, but you learn ways to manage it. You learn ways to keep your dog and the public safe.

As always, be careful who you trust for advice with a fear aggressive dog. A lot of well meaning people give really bad advice. I would seek out help, in person, from a reputable trainer. This kind of behavior is something that really needs to be assessed in person. If you are willing to give your general location, perhaps someone can suggest a knowledgeable trainer to help.

But, as to the breed as a whole being like this... definitely not. My second GSD is as stable and neutral in public as they come. I can literally take her anywhere and she is completely fine.


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## SamsontheGSD (Dec 23, 2016)

Our first GSD was wonderful with all people at home, out in public, etc. She was great with dogs that she knew, but would go ape ***removed by moderator*** when she saw a dog she didn't know. We really had to avoid other dogs at parks and what not because of it. Now, she did not bite, but she would pop them in the head with her front paw.

Our current dog does not react to other dogs in public. Maybe a stare if the other dog does it first. I also noticed at the vet he would stand and pay close attention if our kids got near another dog then sit back down when they returned. No barking, no pulling, etc. He will let any child pet him and most adults. He tends to shy away from being pet by people that are timid. At home he's a bit different though. If he knows a visitor it's no big deal, but he has started barking at new people. It's quite intimidating even if he is 6.5 months old.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I currently have 15 shepherds and can take any of them for walks, to the vet, to the pet store, to training classes without any of them nipping or biting anyone. 

German Shepherds come in a range of temperaments/confidence levels, independence - dependent, leader - follower, social - shy. And they can be found in the same litter, though in better bred litters, even the more shy puppy can be fine in most situations with confident leadership from the humans, and careful socialization. 

Careful socialization is not lots of socialization. It means the dog is exposed to different things, well with its level of tolerance, and overwhelming the pup is avoided and rare. And during this same period, well within the pup's familiar zone, you are doing things to build confidence within the dog and confidence the pup has in you the trainer-owner.

That being said, keeping and working with the dog you currently have, will automatically make your next experience with a GSD much better. It sounds like you have a bubble-dog. With a bubble dog, you as the owner has to manage the environment so that your dog is not a danger to others, and by your doing so is not a danger to himself. With maturity and vigilance on your part, it gets easier. You learn how far away you need to be, and train yourself to always be on guard for the fast and sneaky toddlers that want to hug the big doggy. 

Years of living with and effectively managing a bubble dog will make it easier to handle your next shepherd. However, it will not teach you to be comfortable in crowds with your dog, which is what any dog needs. If you walk out with your new pup, with fear-expectation of all Hades breaking loose, then, your puppy will pick that up and be uneasy. Tightening the leash will make the puppy even more worried and even a dog with an ok temperament can grow uneasy to the point of acting exactly opposite of what you want. 

The way to counter this, is not to just learn to manage the bubble-dog you have, but to spend the next 4-8 years working with this dog. The object is not to get closer and closer to other dogs and people. The object is to become very natural with your dog's limitations, and by anticipating them tweaking the circumstances to stay within the realm of acceptable, while building your dog's confidence and the bond of trust within your and your dog. The benefits will be a decrease of the necessary bubble, but it is so gradual that it's hardly recognizable while it is happening, and only in looking back will you realize that your dog and you have made leaps and bounds forward. 

I suggest finding a good training class. Sign up, and keep signing up. keep going to sessions after sessions after sessions. After 3-4 sets of classes you can bring that number down to 2-3 sessions in a year's time, and as maturity increases, you will be able to go down even further to 1-2. Maturity and familiarity will improve the dog's life and yours. 

And in 8-10 years when you are ready for your next pup, you will already have a good trainer, and you will start the puppy in the same routine or training classes, and you will be so familiar with it, that your puppy will fall into place with you. Your success with the puppy will build your trust and that will spill over in other environments. 

We learn and grow as handlers by having a difficult dog. But not just by slapping a muzzle on when we absolutely have to take them out, and otherwise keeping them safely at home. 

Another thing for the current dog. Through the first set of classes, even two, I wouldn't bother with taking the dog anywhere but classes. This gives the dog a chance to grow familiar with the class atmosphere for 6-12 weeks. Then take it slowly outside of class. Take him for a walk on a trail that is not very used, once a week outside of class. The beauty of it is that there is no hurry. You are on a ten or so year journey with your dog. If you take him no where but dog classes for a year, it won't hurt him any. 

The act of training your dog in the presence of other dogs and people, actually builds trust between you and your dog. When the communication is effective, the dog learns that when he does the right thing, you praise him, and maybe there is a treat. When he does the wrong thing, you have a way of letting him know that too. The more he understands the communication, the more relaxed he will become. And if you cater your training so that he is succeeding 80 -- 90 percent of the time, then it becomes very positive, enjoyable for you and for the dog, even with other dogs and other people working near-by. 

Good luck with your dog. Keep him safe.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

In ten years or whenever you decide you're ready for your next German Shepherd, go to a good breeder, don't buy a puppy from craiglist or from someone's backyard. You want to buy from someone who is breeding for temperament as well as some kind of 'job', be it working line or show line. After you get the puppy then it's your job to work with the puppy, teach and train it, have fun and enjoy it. Stay on the forum and read through old threads and new ones. You'll learn a lot. Start a new thread about your current dog and ask for help. 

And yes, I, too, have Shepherds who have gone everywhere with me. Enya is eight months and has already been to festivals, Bass fishing tournaments, parades, craft fairs, and even a night time Christmas Trail with kids of all ages running through the dark, so from quiet places to very loud noisy crowded places.


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## SadTales (Jul 20, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> Singe is a 6 year old (intact) Czech-line GSD. We do "Meet the Breed" events with our local kennel club. He's a titled Therapy Dog. And we just go out to wander the town at least once a week. That's on top of all of the dog events we also do.
> Being intact, he can sometimes be snarky with other males but for the most part he ignores them.
> 
> Have you had your current dog evaluated by a trainer or behaviorist who is experienced with the breed? Many dogs can be managed with the right techniques. Others simply aren't wired right but steps can be taken to minimize the risk in public.
> ...


Omg, you're dog is so cute, love horses... My poor pup is scared of things like tables, and snow man's.

And yes, I got him evaluated, currently working with a trainer right now, I think in the future will probably see a vet behaviorist as well. Current trainer / behaviorist specializes in GSDs, and has many IPO titled Shepherds. She's great. She said his fear aggression is bad, and this isn't the first dog she came across like him from .. Same person I got him from, but she was like.. He has potential. Which is very true, she is working with us with the prong collar, he won't snap or do anything while on prong collar, but.. Without it, he lunges, and goes straight for a bite because of how fearful he is.

I haven't given up on him too  -- we muzzle, and prong, sometimes no prong.


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## SadTales (Jul 20, 2016)

giebel said:


> Hey Sad Tales,
> 
> The first thing I wanted to say is don't give up. How old is your dog? What kind of support have you sought out.My dog was fear aggressive but I worked him out of it. I have never met a perfect dog or a perfect handler , it is all a learning experience whether you are experienced or a newbie.Find a local reputable trainer and get in touch with your local German Shepherd Club. Have you already done that? There are many resources that can save you and your dogs life. It is never to late. If ultimately you feel your dog is to much to handle contact a local established German Shepherd rescue group who could adopt your dog out. Keep in touch. You obviously care about your dog or you wouldnt be on this site.


Turned one year recently. We are seeking currently training with a trainer who specializes in the breed, well known by clubs.. Breeds Shepherds / has multiple IPO Shepherds, her dog is incredible.

I always wanted to bring him to a club.. But, his fear aggression is so bad, that I can't even take him in the car without him wanting to jump out the window just to bite someone.. 

I wouldn't ever be able to give him up, too attached... Very attached. 

Currently we are doing prong collar training with him.. He acts better on prong.. Can actually walk by people / while he is muzzled. But, if dogs come near him.. Even a chihuahua, threshold comes up.

Without prong, it peaks the aggression.
But, I just manage it by listening to what the trainer says, cross streets.. Muzzle him.. And work with him making him listen to me. Like when I go to to a street sign, make sure he sits before we cross.. Small things like that.

In the future, we will seek a vet behaviorist too.

We are planning on taking him to a club too, with trainer.


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## SadTales (Jul 20, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> I'm curious. What did you do with your dog initially? How old is your dog? Were the mistakes your fault? What type of breeder did you go to?
> I believe in off leash time, confidence building, and balance in the upbringing. Training, yet freedom.


SL breeder. 1 Yr. The mistakes were mostly my fault, for listening to friend who didn't have experience on what to buy, and also rushing to buy my puppy without looking at other breeders. I just went to one breeder and was like; "TAKE MY MONEY!" Type of thing because I fell in-love with the puppies.. Oh, puppies.. So cute. I trust people too easy, I saw the red flags but ignored them.

But, I feel like it was a GOOD thing, that I kind of ended up with a fear aggressive dog.. Because if any other person bought this pup... What would of happened to him? Put down, or? Who knows.. And, not many people are dedicated or able to put up with it, or, have the money to pay for sessions.

So, at the same time. I am blessed I was given him, if that makes sense


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## SadTales (Jul 20, 2016)

Thank you all, for opening my mind up to the breed again. Started to terrify me, thinking about in the future.. Like 10 years from now.. Ending up in the same position.. Like an aggressive dog. Not gonna lie, stupidly I saw a video of a Shepherd biting a reporter's face, but I saw the signs (stranger leaned over his neck, bad, bad...) So I saw it coming. But then I worried thinking.. What if I were to get a confident Shepherd, and something like that happened.

Really makes me sad sometimes that I can't bring him out anywhere, because he LOVES being outside, he loves going places with us. But, because of how bad it is, he gets stuck at home waiting for us to return.

Thank you guys, you eased it, and reminded me of why I really love this breed. Majestic breed. I needed this thank you.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The German shepherd will always be my favorite breed we do many things with our dogs one dog Max does not like other dogs much but it has not as stopped us from doing things we love with our dogs we just don't let dogs come up to us. We take them many places that we would all have fun beaches , parks, bike rides , walks through the neighborhood, hikes etc. and are well behaved. I had my twin nephews over who are 1 1/2 years old running all around the yard and house along with my 6 year old nephew and my own kids enjoying the dogs who are careful around the little ones and sneak kisses in. Our female is incredibly gentle in general especially around my nephews who are toddlers. My male gives them the nod to come and follow him. My female is great with my cousin who is a afraid of dogs she may help him with that.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

SadTales said:


> SL breeder. 1 Yr. The mistakes were mostly my fault, for listening to friend who didn't have experience on what to buy, and also rushing to buy my puppy without looking at other breeders. I just went to one breeder and was like; "TAKE MY MONEY!" Type of thing because I fell in-love with the puppies.. Oh, puppies.. So cute. I trust people too easy, I saw the red flags but ignored them.
> 
> But, I feel like it was a GOOD thing, that I kind of ended up with a fear aggressive dog.. Because if any other person bought this pup... What would of happened to him? Put down, or? Who knows.. And, not many people are dedicated or able to put up with it, or, have the money to pay for sessions.
> 
> So, at the same time. I am blessed I was given him, if that makes sense


The thing is, now you know. There are breeders breeding stable dogs. Next time, take your time.


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## cgczelusta (Apr 18, 2017)

Hi SadTales,

We are first time GSD owners and could not have asked for a better breed. I personally feel that the breeder and training is key. We researched breeders and visited them a lot before making our final decision. We take our GSD out almost every Saturday to pet stores and home improvement stores. While he is uncertain about a stranger coming up to pet him, he will happily lick their hands. I agree with what someone else said about the breed being more concerned about what we are doing versus others. He loves other dogs and cats, maybe more for the chase! 

He is protective of the home and does bark at the neighbors, to be expected. After a bit of time passes he will stop barking but will keep his distance. I never worry about him being aggressive towards anyone or any other dog. We are also able to keep him off the leash and he never strays from us. He is by far the most intelligent puppy we have ever had and definitely will not be our last GSD!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww well the thing is ... people telling you how great GSD's are ... does not really do you much good with your dog! Personally ... I would think, the experiance of people who have owned and successfully rehabbed a "bubble Dog" to be much more relevant for you??? 

My former bubble dog could do the exact thing as "Dainerra's" with creatures, if "Rocky" saw a freaking "Elephant" he would not care. We don't cop an "attitude" with "creatures" period end of story is how he works. But with people ... yeah ... 11 years now and caution still required. 

And with "Bubble Dogs" and people ... I know now what to look for as regards when the muzzle could be dropped. But hey you know ... I've heard ... on here, that you should be careful of who you listen to! So you know ... take advise from members that have never had to use a muzzle for there dog's and ... you know ... "Good luck with that." 

I guess their advise is to get a better dog next time?? Mine would be "work with the dog in front of you." Just saying.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Aww well the thing is ... people telling you how great GSD's are ... does not really do you much good with your dog! Personally ... I would think, the experiance of people who have owned and successfully rehabbed a "bubble Dog" to be much more relevant for you???
> 
> My former bubble dog could do the exact thing as "Dainerra's" with creatures, if "Rocky" saw a freaking "Elephant" he would not care. We don't cop an "attitude" with "creatures" period end of story is how he works. But with people ... yeah ... 11 years now and caution still required.
> 
> ...


Chip, if you read what the OP was originally asking, they wanted to know if all GSD were like the one they currently have. That is why so many people are telling them about their wonderful, stable dogs. I don't think anyone is telling this person not to work with their current dog. Just that there is hope that it will be better next time.

I also have what you are referring to as a bubble dog. And yes, he is safe in public now because I sought out a knowledgeable trainer and worked with him a ton. I would never let a stranger pet him, and I put him up when we have company over, but he behaves himself out in public. And no, he is not the first dog with issues I've had (I have a pit bull that was extremely fear reactive when we first got her and I've fostered some pretty unstable dogs as well), but I truly didn't expect a dog I got from a breeder to be more of a mess than any rescue I had ever worked with. I was unsure I even wanted another GSD until I started working with my trainer and saw what a stable GSD was actually like. I'm sure if you ever met a truly stable GSD that didn't need to be put in a bubble, you would feel differently about the breed, too.

But as for some of the advice you give and methods you promote, I have to disagree with them being effective for most dogs. I'm happy that they worked for you and your dog, but walking a dog on a SLL is not the cure all you present it to be. Most people will need the help of a trainer to get control over a fearful, reactive or aggressive dog. There is no shame in that.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sad Tales, I am so sorry that you are having such a bad first experience with the breed. I am super proud of you, and I dont even know you, that you are grabbing the bull by the horns and finding a working a solution. Super Kudos to you.

My first GSD, well, I lucked into her honestly. i thought I knew what i was doing when I researched, but looking back, i had no idea. LOL. I had had 3 traumatic experiences with GSD as a child. Looking back they were minor, but from a kids eye, they were horrific, and I grew up terrified of the breed. I worked at a pet supply store and if one came in, I went into the store room shaking. My fear was horrible. I adopted a lab/pit mix from the pound that was dog aggressive and took her to a trainer. That trainer had GSD that did IPO. He and I worked together and I eventually met his stable and sane GSD, and fell in love. Its amazing what you have when you have a stable GSD.

So when I was ready, I wanted a GSD. And I got Hanah. And she was the perfect 1st GSD. Good drive, stable as all get out, fun to work and super forgiving of a novice handler, she became my first SAR dog. And I was hooked. I have had a few since then, and I have fostered more than I have owned. I have run the gamut in regards to GSD, from incredibly fearful, to horrible seperation anxiety, to cat aggressive, to dominant aggressive, all as foster dogs. My personal dogs have all be very stable, though all have varying levels and thresholds. Hanah, she was perfect. Ike when a young dog had some handler aggression(fixed by me with the help of an amazing trainer), Lena was the most stable, but chased the cats and never wanted to play with other dogs, and now Nix who is awesome but can be a douche to other dog his size(though he loves little dogs) 

All of my dogs could easily be in public and behave even with loads of dogs and small children. All of my dogs have been used a PR dogs for various SAR agencies. A good GSD is a Godsend. They are unlike any other breed. 

When you are ready, do your research, find a good breeder, be prepared for the cost(they arent cheap) but do it right and you will have a wonderful dog.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Chip, if you read what the OP was originally asking, they wanted to know if all GSD were like the one they currently have. That is why so many people are telling them about their wonderful, stable dogs. I don't think anyone is telling this person not to work with their current dog. Just that there is hope that it will be better next time.
> 
> I also have what you are referring to as a bubble dog. And yes, he is safe in public now because I sought out a knowledgeable trainer and worked with him a ton. I would never let a stranger pet him, and I put him up when we have company over, but he behaves himself out in public. And no, he is not the first dog with issues I've had (I have a pit bull that was extremely fear reactive when we first got her and I've fostered some pretty unstable dogs as well), but I truly didn't expect a dog I got from a breeder to be more of a mess than any rescue I had ever worked with. I was unsure I even wanted another GSD until I started working with my trainer and saw what a stable GSD was actually like. I'm sure if you ever met a truly stable GSD that didn't need to be put in a bubble, you would feel differently about the breed, too.
> 
> But as for some of the advice you give and methods you promote, I have to disagree with them being effective for most dogs. I'm happy that they worked for you and your dog, but walking a dog on a SLL is not the cure all you present it to be. Most people will need the help of a trainer to get control over a fearful, reactive or aggressive dog. There is no shame in that.


I agree with this. One style does not fix every dog. Or every trainer would train the same way, and there would be no need for questions.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Out of the two GSDs I've had both were/are 100% trustworthy in public with people. My first was a rescue, probably BYB, and was not very confident and dog aggressive untill she got older. She was my first dog and I did no training with her. I swear that dog was incapable of biting or even showing aggression towards people. Despite her anxiety issues she loved being around people, even strangers. Extremely gentle and always trustworthy with people. She passed at 16 years and 4 months old never having so much as growled at anyone to my knowledge. 
The GSD I have now is a very well bred working line, extremely confident, goes absolutely everywhere with me. She has bite work training and is very nasty in protection training. Outside of training she is trustworthy and very sweet, LOVES all people. She is often out in public in new situations with new people and the thought has never crossed my mind that she would bite anyone unless they were truly a threat.


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## Jayfeather (Dec 28, 2014)

So sorry you are going through this with your dog, and I truly admire that you are willing to put the time and effort into training him. My own dog was never fear aggressive, but he has also never been very confident, either. I will admit that this may be partly my fault, as he is also my first dog and many, many training mistakes were made in the first year and a half or so, but in the end he turned out to be an amazing dog. He is my partner in crime, and we take him everywhere with us when possible. I can have him off leash under most circumstances. He can walk through crowds without any problems, loves to be petted by small children, and is almost famous on our side of town. He is without a doubt the best dog that I could have ended up with as a novice handler. Challenging, but forgiving.
That being said, we had our fair share of trouble. He became dog reactive very early, and it took about two years of training before I could walk him off leash around dogs with relative confidence that he wouldn't run up to them to make sure they were not dangerous. He has been great since then (although he will need a little bit of work when I get back home from college!). But I will reiterate that he is not a confident dog at all. He has learned that I will protect him from anything dangerous or otherwise scary, but the skittishness is still there, and it is probably something that we will simply have to deal with, as it seems to largely be his personality. For this reason, I don't let adults pet him anymore, and as long as he is not being bothered by people (in other words, as long as I protect him from all the annoying humans that keep attacking him), he is an absolute joy to take almost anywhere with us.
The moral of the story, I suppose, is that even a dog that may not be completely stable in temperament can still be an excellent companion with the right training. Please don't let your situation discourage you from a future shepherd, as they truly are an amazing breed.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> Chip, if you read what the OP was originally asking, they wanted to know if all GSD were like the one they currently have. That is why so many people are telling them about their wonderful, stable dogs. I don't think anyone is telling this person not to work with their current dog. Just that there is hope that it will be better next time.


I fully agree no one was telling them there dog sucks. And near as I can tell ... I had "Zero" input on what anyone had to say about how great a GSD can be??? But by implication the "OP" has problems with there particular dog and I wanted to let them they know ... they are not alone. So yes PIA that I am ... I addressed the dog they have in front in of them ... my bad???



GypsyGhost said:


> I also have what you are referring to as a bubble dog. And yes, he is safe in public now because I sought out a knowledgeable trainer and worked with him a ton. I would never let a stranger pet him, and I put him up when we have company over, but he behaves himself out in public. And no, he is not the first dog with issues I've had (I have a pit bull that was extremely fear reactive when we first got her and I've fostered some pretty unstable dogs as well), but I truly didn't expect a dog I got from a breeder to be more of a mess than any rescue I had ever worked with. I was unsure I even wanted another GSD until I started working with my trainer and saw what a stable GSD was actually like. I'm sure if you ever met a truly stable GSD that didn't need to be put in a bubble, you would feel differently about the breed, too.


Well ... there you go ... "Rocky" has met many,many strangers and I trained that on my own. And I did not "Find a Trainer" everyone does not need to do that. I speak for for those that can ... "DIY" there own issue prone dog. I don't really care about those that already know how to train a dog??? 

So yes ... I get tons of flack ... apparently ... but I take notice of those who I don't get flack from?? So you know what's up with that ... I guess I'm the bait dog as it were.  

And yes "Rocky" will never be like my "People friendly" Boxer and Band dogdog were, but he is also not that great deal of a burden to bear these days ... he is pretty much a "Easy Dog" ... as I have heard on here ... first stitches In my hand notwithstanding. 



GypsyGhost said:


> But as for some of the advice you give and methods you promote, I have to disagree with them being effective for most dogs. I'm happy that they worked for you and your dog, but walking a dog on a SLL is not the cure all you present it to be. Most people will need the help of a trainer to get control over a fearful, reactive or aggressive dog. There is no shame in that.


Ahhh the SLL thing?? Yes ... no doubt my particular tool of choice. And dare I say with all modesty in the use of that particular tool, I rival Cesar Millan.  

So I started my thread .. on a SLL, it seemed simple enough to me??? But you know ... apparently such was not the case?? I got feedback and for the most people ... it simply was not working for most people??? So I kinda sorta gave up on promoting it. Still I have heard from members on both my forums of choice and for those that want to understand how to use a "SLL" effectively ... I got there backs. 

But you know by and large most trainers use and recommend a "Prong Collar" and if you dig deeper ... which I do. Some trainers do not recommend the use of a "Prong Collar" for dogs with "aggression issues." I understand the why's of that ... a Prong collar can "put drive drive into a dog or take drive out of a dog" but by and large ... "JQP" has no idea what that means??? I pretty much just bypass that crap with the use of SLL. And if you work rescue, a "SLL" is the only tool they will let you use on there dogs ... that works out just fine for me. 

If people need to find a trainer, I have zero issue with that but not everyone does ..."some" people just need to understand what others that have faced similar issues do and that is good enough for them. As I am want to say ... there is always that guy.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> I fully agree no one was telling them there dog sucks. And near as I can tell ... I had "Zero" input on what anyone had to say about how great a GSD can be??? But by implication the "OP" has problems with there particular dog and I wanted to let them they know ... they are not alone. So yes PIA that I am ... I addressed the dog they have in front in of them ... my bad???
> 
> Well ... there you go ... "Rocky" has met many,many strangers and I trained that on my own. And I did not "Find a Trainer" everyone does not need to do that. I speak for for those that can ... "DIY" there own issue prone dog. I don't really care about those that already know how to train a dog???
> 
> ...


To clarify, my boy doesn't meet strangers because he is extremely fearful and I don't feel it's fair to him to force him to accept something he is clearly not comfortable with. He ignores strangers and that is all I ask of him. 

Also, I do use slip leads. Frequently. They have their purpose. I just don't think most people can DIY their way to a better dog with one.

And you are right, it's good for the OP to know they are not alone in dealing with a dog with issues. And to echo what others have said, they deserve a ton of credit for finding a trainer to help them manage their dog. Bravo, @SadTales for doing the work! You are going to learn so much from your current dog, and build a really special relationship with them. Best wishes for continued success!


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Breed does not define every part of a dog. Also, confident dogs *can* bite, but your concerns can be addressed with proper training. 

Nervousness and fear is a sad side effect German Shepherd often experience due to poor breeding, but the fearful GSDs I have encountered try to avoid, biting out of the blue is unusual.

My personal experience with my GSD is that he is completely comfortable with people, he has no (unprovoked) human aggression. He will bark at strange people who are yelling while walking down the street, but even with the gate open he just barks and does not pursue. I have walked him through CROWDS of people at packed events. He handles himself well and does not react when being bumped into or when people pet him without warning. He is much more cautious of dogs, but has never lunged.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Chip said: 

[/QUOTE]*Ahhh the SLL thing?? Yes ... no doubt my particular tool of choice. And dare I say with all modesty in the use of that particular tool, I rival Cesar Millan.*  



_But you know by and large most trainers use and recommend a "Prong Collar" and if you dig deeper ... which I do. Some trainers do not recommend the use of a "Prong Collar" for dogs with "aggression issues." I understand the why's of that ... a Prong collar can "put drive drive into a dog or take drive out of a dog" but by and large ... "JQP" has no idea what that means??? I pretty much just bypass that crap with the use of SLL. And if you work rescue, a "SLL" is the only tool they will let you use on there dogs ... that works out just fine for me. _
[/QUOTE]

My question to you, Chip is do you fully understand how Cesar Milan uses a slip collar? A lot, actually a tremendous amount of what Cesar does with aggressive dogs and the slip collar is carefully edited. I have watched his show and his use of the slip collar and the way he presents it on TV is something that I have a big issue with. They carefully edit out the dog being asphyxiated and "choked out" to the point of passing out. If most pet owners understood that the "calm submissive" dog laying on the ground was choked to the point of passing out they would not watch Cesar or use that technique. 

Have you ever truly needed to choke Rocky until he passed out to change his behavior? I understand that your dog bit you in a dog fight, it happens. I've been bitten in dog fights as well. I've owned some rather serious dogs that were handler aggressive and dog aggressive. I've learned to work what works with the individual dog. The slip collar does work, but you have to really know how to use it and what to do. There is far more to using a slip collar than hanging the dog like Cesar does. 

The reason that prong collars are recommended so highly is that they work for 98% of dogs and 95% of dog owners. As a dog training tool it is far superior for the average person and dog to gain control and manage their dogs. Few people have dogs or GSD's with serious enough issues that a prong collar will not fix. Most dogs will not walk well or behave properly on a slip collar or choke chain. This is where most of the problems begin. In fact a prong is a far safer tool to use than a choke chain. With two of my dogs a prong works extremely well. With Boru, I use a prong for obedience and a slip collar for training control in high drive, high stress scenarios. For Boru the slip is better when I bring conflict in and our work and training can be highly charged and stressful. It is designed to be that way for the dog. Collar choice is dependent on the dog and what we are doing. A slip collar will not work wth Boomer for obedience or just walking. 

The point is, it's great that the slip collar has worked for you and one reactive dog. What Cesar Milan does with slip collars could easily be relied with a prong for 75% of his troubled cases. What he does is not magic and I'm guessing that a prong to the novice pet owner looks barbaric and is not PC enough for TV. However, what he does with the slip collar is often necessary and even harsher. But, with careful editing you wind up with a choked out, "calm submissive" dog. A dog that has literally passed out from asphyxiation. I am very careful in the training techniques that I recommend on internet forums. I can certainly say that for the vast majority of dog owners a prong is a far better choice. For those few hat have the rare dog that may redirect on them after a correction a slip collar can work, if prepared to use it properly. Even then, most dogs are not the savage beast that many novice owners make them out to be.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> My question to you, Chip is do you fully understand how Cesar Milan uses a slip collar? A lot, actually a tremendous amount of what Cesar does with aggressive dogs and the slip collar is carefully edited. I have watched his show and his use of the slip collar and the way he presents it on TV is something that I have a big issue with. They carefully edit out the dog being asphyxiated and "choked out" to the point of passing out. If most pet owners understood that the "calm submissive" dog laying on the ground was choked to the point of passing out they would not watch Cesar or use that technique.
> 
> Have you ever truly needed to choke Rocky until he passed out to change his behavior? I understand that your dog bit you in a dog fight, it happens. I've been bitten in dog fights as well. I've owned some rather serious dogs that were handler aggressive and dog aggressive. I've learned to work what works with the individual dog. The slip collar does work, but you have to really know how to use it and what to do. There is far more to using a slip collar than hanging the dog like Cesar does.
> 
> ...


I am pretty close-minded about prong collars. I have taken them off of dogs that were given to me and have never needed to put them back on the dogs. I am completely convinced they are unnecessary and have little respect for trainers who immediately resort to the prong in every instance. However, too many people these days have zero instinct when it comes to how to manage, train, and govern a dog. If the prong collar keeps the owner from battling with a dog, which increases frustration, decreases the amount of training/exercise the dog gets, and lowers the respect the dog has for the owner, it is better for the owner to go ahead and use the correction collar.

Suggesting it is right for 95% of owners, well, I think wherever you pulled that statistic out of is wrong as well as ridiculous. And, that it is good for 98% of dogs, I flat out disagree. I think that you are suggesting all dogs save the 1-2% of dogs that are strongly dominant/independent and possibly handler aggressive are the only dogs that would not benefit from having the prong collar used on them. I think a majority of soft and biddable dogs that have no need of strong corrections, can actually be negatively impacted by prong collars. 

In fact, when you use a prong on a dog that does not require that level of correction, you are actually dulling their natural ability to work with the owner without serious corrections. It is like whispering and shouting. If you tell your kids to clean up their room, and they ignore you so you shout at them to clean their room. Pretty soon, they need to be shouted at. They will ignore your normal tones and listen only to shouts and whispers. You can do that to dogs too. 98% of dogs do not NEED prong collars. Nor should they be used on 98% of dogs. 

Because humans are such inadequate trainers, one could say 98% of the dogs prong collars are used on, could have easily been managed without them. But that statistic is just as baseless as the ones you put out there. And probably just as incorrect.

The whole argument that some people have for the use of these collars are for the true hard case dogs. And it sounds like those dogs probably shouldn't even have these collars used on them. LOL. It is so freaking funny. 

Ok, I am just ticked off at the 95% and the 98% that you are citing. I find the collars nauseating. Not because the prongs dig into the dogs. No. But because of the parroting of the belief that the dog's can't be managed without the collar, that their dog really needs it because their dog is hard or dominant or stubborn or tough. And because they are generally poorly fitted and used ignorantly. They are nauseating to me because the owners do not grow in their ability to train and manage their dogs while they keep relying on their training wheels. 

For the other part of the 2% that use the prong collar for other purposes, like agitation in protection work or whatever, I apologize. That isn't anything I am familiar with and hold no opinion whatsoever on that.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

I think for a lot of people prong collars are just a stepping stone, the goal is to be able to use a regular flat collar. Some dogs don't know how to walk without pulling their owners along behind them, a prong allows them to be conditioned to the pace the owner prefers and after awhile you can switch it out for a flat collar.

I don't personally use them for just pulling, but correcting reactivity. I don't currently have dogs that require a prong, at least not in my opinion.

I'm not for or against Cesar Millan, but I think that many 'haters' compare him and his methods to people who are not 'rehabbing' dogs. A dog without major aggression and reactivity issues is going to need different training methods than a regular dog being taught basic behavior.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@ Selzer, we can most certainly disagree and I'm not sure you got the gist of my post. The 95% was just an example and it is not based off any published scientific study. 

I realize now that you do not use or like prong collars and that is fine. I do agree that most soft, sensitive dogs do not need one. A flat collar will work for the soft dogs that you mention and have experience with. Most folks lack experience and the ability to deal with a dog with even a modicum of drive. If a dog barks at another dog or pulls on the leash a little they think they have Cujo for a pet. A prong will certainly help those owners.

It can also be used properly as a finese tool and works well.

I'm glad you were able to get that off your chest and I was able to help.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> @ Selzer, we can most certainly disagree and I'm not sure you got the gist of my post. The 95% was just an example and it is not based off any published scientific study.
> 
> I realize now that you do not use or like prong collars and that is fine. I do agree that most soft, sensitive dogs do not need one. A flat collar will work for the soft dogs that you mention and have experience with. Most folks lack experience and the ability to deal with a dog with even a modicum of drive. If a dog barks at another dog or pulls on the leash a little they think they have Cujo for a pet. A prong will certainly help those owners.
> 
> ...


Not all of my dogs are soft. But most are handler sensitive. Probably because I do not work-harden them with a prong collar, LOL! When you immediately go for the big guns, you tend to need big guns. Also, they are not necessarily raised the same way most new puppies that go to a new home are raised. They are not brought into a new situation and then expected to be the center of attention, bullied or spoiled, by people with limited experience or instinctive dog handling skill. 

If you skip most of the common pitfalls, you rarely have to deal with the problems that most people resort to prong collars for. 

I suggest martingales, especially for softer dogs. A dog might slip a flat collar if it is panicked. It can't slip a martingale. 

Again, I wish more trainers would not resort to the prong collar immediately because people who use one for the minor issues and to overcome the problems caused by inept handling, they simply do not grow as trainers. And while one can have a great relationship with a dog even with using prong collars, we can do so much better. It's like using a mule-bit, when with a little patience you can have a well-trained critter with a simple snaffle. If 95% of the horses out there were being ridden with mule bits, it would certainly be shameful.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

SadTales said:


> So my question for all of you is,
> what is it like to own a CONFIDENT Shepherd? Can they be walked in public without showing aggression.. Can they be near strangers without the need for aggression? Do they make good dogs for someone who wants to bring their dog everywhere? Do they ever show aggression towards their handler, or other dogs?
> 
> I have many questions.. Another one being, were you a first time dog owner when you got your Shepherd? Or experienced, and what do you believe this breed is mostly directed for? And what is it like to owna confident Shep.
> ...


First of all, Minka is still very young. But we were having a pretty hard time with her up until a week and a half/two weeks ago or so. Things just weren't clicking with her. She was aggressive with our other dog, was extremely disobedient and couldn't be motivated by food, toys, or praise. She ran the spectrum from calm in public to jumping on passerbys with excitement or cowering/reacting with fear in certain situations.

She's not our first dog, or our first large breed. But she is our first GSD. For a long time I bought into all the "positive only" nonsense people spout off and for her it just didn't work. The very first time her eyes lit up and she really got things, found motivation and started being happier and actually working happily with us was when things went too far one day and she had to be harshly corrected while attempting to kill our smaller dog. I figured there was something about that because she actually started paying attention. Ended up finding a trainer via YouTube that posts a lot of videos, all starting with prong collar work. Figured we'd look into that more, what the **** right? It would either work or she'd have to go after that incident. She's been a dream ever since. She gets along great with our other dog, participates happily in training (still not motivated by toys or treats but LOVES praise and petting) and she's come leaps and bounds with obedience. She's actually very near off leash trained perfectly (with high levels of distraction) which a couple of weeks ago seemed like an impossible dream. She'd choke herself to the point she got wobbly and would pass out with a flat buckle and her martingale, we were getting nowhere even with the great tips we found on here. With the prong she pulled exactly two times, realized she was causing the pressure herself and has never pulled since. We've never had to jerk it, tug it, pop it. She sits the moment we stop, walks in a perfect heel and still does both if the leash is disconnected no matter what's going on around us. We had a dog that didn't care to eat, therefore could not be motivated by ANY food item. The only thing she did not want to play with were toys, so no luck there. Praise didn't work either, because she just flat didn't respect us at all apparently so what did praise matter? 

Point is, far from an expert on the breed but we love having her now. It's been confusing. Following the advice on here we couldn't make anything work. We were really starting to think something was very wrong with her. It was just something that was wrong with us. We didn't realize how wrong all the "positive only" stuff was for her. We didn't realize people were lying when they'd say things like correction is abuse and prong collars/remote collars/etc. are evil medieval torture devices. Or when they say you either go positive only or you hate your dog. Positive only or you ruin the relationship. Positive only or you cause psychological damage for a lifetime. We now have a confident pup that learns, loves to train, loves to work and wants to work because we ask her to. Not because we are waving bait in her face and begging her to do it. She does what we say, when we say, and because we said so. If you ask me, that's how it should always be anyway. Just like a kid. My kid doesn't get a new toy or ice cream every time I tell them to clean their room. They do it because I said so and if they cooperate, lots of happier things happen all through the day. She's happy to do it because she gets all the love in the world and life is easier for everyone now, most of all her. There's plenty of hope for your current GSD. You just have to find what works for it's needs. One thing she has taught us is that whatever that is, it's different for every dog/handler relationship. I don't expect what has worked for her to work with our next one either. It'll be a new learning experience.


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## giebel (Jul 28, 2016)

Hey SadTales,

Thanks for your reply,

Sounds like you are doing all the right things. Your dog is only 1 so I feel with all the work and commitment you are making it will work itself out. I will be looking forward to your future posts when you will be celebrating your successes. My dog barked at folks and dogs in the car, on walks and social situations. It was all bluster like Sunsilver previously said but I aslo had to walk, train and introduce cautiouslly. Most german shepherds I have met are not a Lassie love every body breed but when I got my dog to be neutral towards others it was like Christmas in July!! I am confident this will happen with your dog as well. My dog wasn't easy in some respects(especially the first 4 years after that he was like butter)Celebrate your journey, walk with confidence and I know your dogs loyalty to your commitment will win out in the end.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> To clarify, my boy doesn't meet strangers because he is extremely fearful and I don't feel it's fair to him to force him to accept something he is clearly not comfortable with. He ignores strangers and that is all I ask of him.


I did not know you had a ... "Bubble Dog??" And I was not pointing fingers?? Sorry if I gave that impression my ... bad.  

I did say I could take Rocky anywhere out in public ... I didn't say I let people pet him. Yes he has met many, many strangers over the years ... but everytime ... it is a negotiation and usually I'm more prone to saying ... sorry I rather you didn't pet him. 

He was taught to "ignore people" and that's what he does. And I did it by assertively keeping people out of his face, Rocky went behind me or I stepped in front of him if someone looked like they were interested in petting him. I made it ... pretty clear that he was not going to be touched ... without saying a word. I pretty much use a 5 foot distance (that works for me, as it gives me time and distance to react to him if I need to ... I never had to) and I stopped and stepped in front of him ... and Rocky's job was to do "nothing." I had a "Zero Bite" policy and did use a muzzle for a time and went out on walks to find people to ignore. I dropped use of the muzzle, once I better understood what he looked like when he was fine ie ... do nothing dog. We walked many, many miles together with only a "good boy" or a "stay" said between us ... worked out fine. And I switched to the SLL, because that is the only tool rescues will, hand you. It doesn't do crap for them but for me ... it works out fine. 

At any rate a "Bubble Dog" need not be a burden but they do have a higher level of responsibility for there owners. I'm not as anal about "Rocky" as I was in the early days but he is not like my people luv'ing "Bully's were. With them ... they pretty much never met a stranger they did not like. I trained my "On the Lawn" command because I was concerned that my "Boxer, Struddell" would happily walk or drive off with well anyone if on the front lawn for a minute or two unobserved! And most likely she would have but ... "Daddy says "On The Lawn! 

Guest were welcome back in those days with Struddell and Gunther but with "Rocky" not so much. These days he is no longer hostile with guest in the home now ... he's more like .."nice to see you ... when you leavening" good enough. Only two people have had free access to him at home ... all other visitors, it's hands off ... and that rule will be strictly enforced or you know ... there's the door. 


Oh and ... fear of people Boxer (a claimed "puller"):
Same approach but not a bite risk so I let Tic Tac Toe, stand by my side when we stopped and people asked questions. He appeared to be good with five away from people. So I allowed him to stand next to me instead of me shielding him. All day event and we just walked and stopped on occasion and I'd answer questions about him. And I would have sworn that dog had no people issues??? And then when we stopped yet another time ... a women asked if she could pet him?? Of course I was pondering an answer and as I was considering an answer??? The women stepped forward before I could answer. 

The second she closed my self imposed gap from strangers ... Tic Tac Toe pressed against my thigh?? I looked down, he looked up and his eyes were big as saucers?? Oh there it is ... my hand went out and I said fear of people issues we are in training and we were out of there!

My bubble dog stories.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Chip said:


*Ahhh the SLL thing?? Yes ... no doubt my particular tool of choice. And dare I say with all modesty in the use of that particular tool, I rival Cesar Millan.*  


_But you know by and large most trainers use and recommend a "Prong Collar" and if you dig deeper ... which I do. Some trainers do not recommend the use of a "Prong Collar" for dogs with "aggression issues." I understand the why's of that ... a Prong collar can "put drive drive into a dog or take drive out of a dog" but by and large ... "JQP" has no idea what that means??? I pretty much just bypass that crap with the use of SLL. And if you work rescue, a "SLL" is the only tool they will let you use on there dogs ... that works out just fine for me. _
[/QUOTE]



Slamdunc said:


> My question to you, Chip is do you fully understand how Cesar Milan uses a slip collar? A lot, actually a tremendous amount of what Cesar does with aggressive dogs and the slip collar is carefully edited. I have watched his show and his use of the slip collar and the way he presents it on TV is something that I have a big issue with. They carefully edit out the dog being asphyxiated and "choked out" to the point of passing out. If most pet owners understood that the "calm submissive" dog laying on the ground was choked to the point of passing out they would not watch Cesar or use that technique.


 I'll be happy to answer ... but first I'll state yet again. ... that if you work with rescues ... the only "tool" they will "give you" is a SLL. The vast majority of Rescues, will not let you put a "Prong Collar" on one of there dogs ... much less an E-Collar. They will put a dog down first before allowing that. So if your gonna work with rescues ... you gotta play by there rules. That said as I am want to say ... there is always that guy. 

I no longer fight with dogs ... I tried that with Rocky and ultimately ... that's how I got hurt. So now I "train" them and a "SLL" can be used as a Rapier or a Broad Axe ... it depends on how it's used. I'll not quibble over your assessment of what Cesar does. But I can state as fact that for me the "SLL" works as "Seen on TV." I've worked with maybe a dozen rescues and most were claimed pullers. And all I do is put a "SLL" on them snug it up high and wait. It usually takes less then 4 minutes. Most of them will struggle a bit, then they stop and stand and wait ... then they "Sit" and look at me. At that point I say OK and off we go and we have zero issues on our walks. They walk for "me" on leash as well as my own well trained "Struddell." Of course ... when I've handed them over at the end of the day ... off they go dragging there handlers behind them.:crazy:

So I'd been doing that over and over and an onlooker would see nothing untoward happening ... so ... no hanging required. I pretty much took doing that for grant. Until this happened it was the first time I'd actually taken a pulling dog from an owner, my friends Boxer and I don't like to get over involved with friends ... but they were making my head hurt, the dogs pulling. 
Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Training Management and Leadership!

I've only had one dog that took me 10 minutes just to get 10 yards! A big headed ... "Breed that shall not be mentioned." Only dog that ever did the sit and won't move ... so leash pressure and wait ... then he did the rear up and fight thing for real ..no biting but he was not happy. Then he gave that up and we started to walk and then he did the dart hard in front of me bit??? I'd not seen that before??? But ten minutes was to much for the dog's owner it was just an impromptu opportunity and he said he had two more dogs just like this one at home! I suppose some people consider being dragged around by there dog's part of dog ownership???

Had I had the opportunity to work more with that dog, I'd have gone more KMODT, long line first thing ... I was not real eager to be tugging on that dog. And the only dog I've actually had to hang was my "Breed that shall not be mentioned" off the street rescue. 75 lbs of solid muscle in a short compact body fast and powerful. Luv'd people got along fine with Rocky ... but cat's uh oh "we" have a problem here. So with lives at stake yes "Sally" I had to use a "SLL" as the said Broad Axe ... but no she did not pass out. But I had no choice but to keep it real. Andstright in a 24 hour effort ... she bowed down to the cats ... she volunteered that behaviour and the apt named "Spooky" proofed her with head butts. 

So aside from keeping it real with Sally over the cats, I've had no need to hang a dog. But the fact of the matter is I was already good at walking dogs using only a Flat leash and Collar and I learned that pretty much like this.:





And you don't hang a dog with a regular collar so why would I hang one with a SLL??? The rescue gave me a "SLL" and a becareful warning, this dogs pulls, fear of people Boxer. 

In less than 4 minutes, we had a very pleasant afternoon of walking and only one observable fear of people observation, (and that person tried to penetrate my bubble to get to my charge) in a very crowded, dog filled environment. So whatever "Cesar" may or may not do. I don't know ... I just take what I need and go with that. So I'll say... that what I do looks like the edited version of what Cesar does if you prefer. 




Slamdunc said:


> Have you ever truly needed to choke Rocky until he passed out to change his behavior? I understand that your dog bit you in a dog fight, it happens. I've been bitten in dog fights as well. I've owned some rather serious dogs that were handler aggressive and dog aggressive. I've learned to work what works with the individual dog.


Aww man ... the details on how that happened and why no hanging for Rocky ... "specifically" are here ... 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7486538-post53.html

I only had minor issues with him and other dogs ... he would "hobby horse" in front of dogs barking behind fences, if I stopped and talked to dog owners. Ticked me off but as leash corrections were not an option with him ... I was stuck?? David Trainer told me about the leash pop on the top of the head thing. I had my opportunity and did it once, he looked up at me like What The Heck??? And he stopped "hobby horsing" ... priceless!





Slamdunc said:


> The slip collar does work, but you have to really know how to use it and what to do. There is far more to using a slip collar than hanging the dog like Cesar does.


Yes I have stated in the past, a SLL is more of an art than a science. And I don't use it as a hammer just as a matter of course.





Slamdunc said:


> The reason that prong collars are recommended so highly is that they work for 98% of dogs and 95% of dog owners. As a dog training tool it is far superior for the average person and dog to gain control and manage their dogs. Few people have dogs or GSD's with serious enough issues that a prong collar will not fix. Most dogs will not walk well or behave properly on a slip collar or choke chain. This is where most of the problems begin. In fact a prong is a far safer tool to use than a choke chain. With two of my dogs a prong works extremely well. With Boru, I use a prong for obedience and a slip collar for training control in high drive, high stress scenarios. For Boru the slip is better when I bring conflict in and our work and training can be highly charged and stressful. It is designed to be that way for the dog. Collar choice is dependent on the dog and what we are doing. A slip collar will not work with Boomer for obedience or just walking.


Well in as much as I have walked dogs that have been proven to be pullers just fine and handed them over at the end of the day. Back to there regular fosters and then watched them being dragged off in the distance ... that kinda says it's not just the SLL??? 

I tried to explain in my thread how to use one properly and for the numbers of views it has ... that was a fail. I'd say I have helped on line and in PM's maybe three people to work with one??? So I gave up and just changed, that thread to more of a use a proper tool to train your dog thing. So nowadays I mention, I use a SLL successfully and people have cow???? 




Slamdunc said:


> The point is, it's great that the slip collar has worked for you and one reactive dog.


Yes my one dog.[/QUOTE] No way you would know but the fact of the matter is, Rocky was a Flat Leash and Collar and then a no leash dog ... my first no leash dog. He leads, I follow or I lead, he follows. I had never used or trained a dog on a SLL, until I started working rescue. And they handed me one and said here use this. Worked out fine for me right out the gate ... just like on TV. And I started up in rescue again to find ... dogs with problems so more than just my one dog.




Slamdunc said:


> What Cesar Milan does with slip collars could easily be relied with a prong for 75% of his troubled cases. What he does is not magic and I'm guessing that a prong to the novice pet owner looks barbaric and is not PC enough for TV. However, what he does with the slip collar is often necessary and even harsher. But, with careful editing you wind up with a choked out, "calm submissive" dog. A dog that has literally passed out from asphyxiation. I am very careful in the training techniques that I recommend on internet forums. I can certainly say that for the vast majority of dog owners a prong is a far better choice. For those few hat have the rare dog that may redirect on them after a correction a slip collar can work, if prepared to use it properly. Even then, most dogs are not the savage beast that many novice owners make them out to be.


I don't really have an issue with Prong Collars?? Fact of the matter is most "Balanced Trainers" teach there clients how to use a Prong Collar properly. I don't have the need of one myself. So I don't really have a dog in (LOL) that fight. And nowadays all the trainers I follow seem to be switching over to E-Collars??? Which is great as long as you don't plan on working in shelters with there rescues. Hmmm as a matter of fact that was one on those pm's ... Shelter work and a SLL.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NerdicEclipse said:


> First of all, Minka is still very young. But we were having a pretty hard time with her up until a week and a half/two weeks ago or so. Things just weren't clicking with her. She was aggressive with our other dog, was extremely disobedient and couldn't be motivated by food, toys, or praise. She ran the spectrum from calm in public to jumping on passerbys with excitement or cowering/reacting with fear in certain situations.
> 
> She's not our first dog, or our first large breed. But she is our first GSD. For a long time I bought into all the "positive only" nonsense people spout off and for her it just didn't work. The very first time her eyes lit up and she really got things, found motivation and started being happier and actually working happily with us was when things went too far one day and she had to be harshly corrected while attempting to kill our smaller dog. I figured there was something about that because she actually started paying attention. Ended up finding a trainer via YouTube that posts a lot of videos, all starting with prong collar work. Figured we'd look into that more, what the **** right? It would either work or she'd have to go after that incident. She's been a dream ever since. She gets along great with our other dog, participates happily in training (still not motivated by toys or treats but LOVES praise and petting) and she's come leaps and bounds with obedience. She's actually very near off leash trained perfectly (with high levels of distraction) which a couple of weeks ago seemed like an impossible dream. She'd choke herself to the point she got wobbly and would pass out with a flat buckle and her martingale, we were getting nowhere even with the great tips we found on here. With the prong she pulled exactly two times, realized she was causing the pressure herself and has never pulled since. We've never had to jerk it, tug it, pop it. She sits the moment we stop, walks in a perfect heel and still does both if the leash is disconnected no matter what's going on around us. We had a dog that didn't care to eat, therefore could not be motivated by ANY food item. The only thing she did not want to play with were toys, so no luck there. Praise didn't work either, because she just flat didn't respect us at all apparently so what did praise matter?
> 
> Point is, far from an expert on the breed but we love having her now. It's been confusing. Following the advice on here we couldn't make anything work. We were really starting to think something was very wrong with her. It was just something that was wrong with us. We didn't realize how wrong all the "positive only" stuff was for her. We didn't realize people were lying when they'd say things like correction is abuse and prong collars/remote collars/etc. are evil medieval torture devices. Or when they say you either go positive only or you hate your dog. Positive only or you ruin the relationship. Positive only or you cause psychological damage for a lifetime. We now have a confident pup that learns, loves to train, loves to work and wants to work because we ask her to. Not because we are waving bait in her face and begging her to do it. She does what we say, when we say, and because we said so. If you ask me, that's how it should always be anyway. Just like a kid. My kid doesn't get a new toy or ice cream every time I tell them to clean their room. They do it because I said so and if they cooperate, lots of happier things happen all through the day. She's happy to do it because she gets all the love in the world and life is easier for everyone now, most of all her. There's plenty of hope for your current GSD. You just have to find what works for it's needs. One thing she has taught us is that whatever that is, it's different for every dog/handler relationship. I don't expect what has worked for her to work with our next one either. It'll be a new learning experience.


Well, this site tends to be anti-positive only.

Frankly, I don't believe positive only truly exists. Most positive trainers use some form of negative maker, voice correction, or repetition to let a dog know it did not accomplish something correctly. Even eliminating praise/treats for poor performance can be a form a training that would not follow PO. 

Be that as it may be. Bad training is bad training. One can train any dog using positive techniques. Just like they train wild animals, orcas, and such using positive techniques. They actually do work. Of course if you are inconsistent or permissive, fail to follow through or give confusing signals to the dog you will have trouble training the dog with positive techniques. I think it is more accurate to say that not every trainer can have success with positive techniques, than not every dog will. It is the human end of the leash that is complex. A dog is a dog. And yes, they have different personalities, pain tolerance, pack-order, motivators, etc. But evenso, they are still a lot less complex than the humans.

GSDs commonly display SSA and inter-pack aggression. With a strong enough physical correction, you might be able to eliminate the behavior, but not the reasons behind the behavior. If your other dog is a female, would strongly suggest not leaving them together without supervision, you might come home to a blood bath. I am not saying it will happen, but it is certainly possible. Much less likely if the other dog is a male.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NerdicEclipse said:


> First of all, Minka is still very young. But we were having a pretty hard time with her up until a week and a half/two weeks ago or so. Things just weren't clicking with her. She was aggressive with our other dog, was extremely disobedient and couldn't be motivated by food, toys, or praise. She ran the spectrum from calm in public to jumping on passerbys with excitement or cowering/reacting with fear in certain situations.
> 
> She's not our first dog, or our first large breed. But she is our first GSD. For a long time I bought into all the "positive only" nonsense people spout off and for her it just didn't work. The very first time her eyes lit up and she really got things, found motivation and started being happier and actually working happily with us was when things went too far one day and she had to be harshly corrected while attempting to kill our smaller dog. I figured there was something about that because she actually started paying attention. Ended up finding a trainer via YouTube that posts a lot of videos, all starting with prong collar work. Figured we'd look into that more, what the **** right? It would either work or she'd have to go after that incident. She's been a dream ever since. She gets along great with our other dog, participates happily in training (still not motivated by toys or treats but LOVES praise and petting) and she's come leaps and bounds with obedience. She's actually very near off leash trained perfectly (with high levels of distraction) which a couple of weeks ago seemed like an impossible dream. She'd choke herself to the point she got wobbly and would pass out with a flat buckle and her martingale, we were getting nowhere even with the great tips we found on here. With the prong she pulled exactly two times, realized she was causing the pressure herself and has never pulled since. We've never had to jerk it, tug it, pop it. She sits the moment we stop, walks in a perfect heel and still does both if the leash is disconnected no matter what's going on around us. We had a dog that didn't care to eat, therefore could not be motivated by ANY food item. The only thing she did not want to play with were toys, so no luck there. Praise didn't work either, because she just flat didn't respect us at all apparently so what did praise matter?
> 
> Point is, far from an expert on the breed but we love having her now. It's been confusing. Following the advice on here we couldn't make anything work. We were really starting to think something was very wrong with her. It was just something that was wrong with us. We didn't realize how wrong all the "positive only" stuff was for her. We didn't realize people were lying when they'd say things like correction is abuse and prong collars/remote collars/etc. are evil medieval torture devices. Or when they say you either go positive only or you hate your dog. Positive only or you ruin the relationship. Positive only or you cause psychological damage for a lifetime. We now have a confident pup that learns, loves to train, loves to work and wants to work because we ask her to. Not because we are waving bait in her face and begging her to do it. She does what we say, when we say, and because we said so. If you ask me, that's how it should always be anyway. Just like a kid. My kid doesn't get a new toy or ice cream every time I tell them to clean their room. They do it because I said so and if they cooperate, lots of happier things happen all through the day. She's happy to do it because she gets all the love in the world and life is easier for everyone now, most of all her. There's plenty of hope for your current GSD. You just have to find what works for it's needs. One thing she has taught us is that whatever that is, it's different for every dog/handler relationship. I don't expect what has worked for her to work with our next one either. It'll be a new learning experience.


I was introduced to a prong collar with my first GSD as an adult and it was like being handed a magic key. That dog had high prey drive, I was not equipped for it and I could not manage without it. Was I a bad trainer? I had previously trained other dogs very well in obedience using old style methods that worked. The prong worked with the GSD in ways other methods didn't. I look at it like any tool, it's there for a purpose and if we need it we use it. 

I was never taught how to get a dog off the prong, which is a failure of training, not my failure. I never even thought about getting off of it as a goal until my dog suddenly didn't need it. Food based rewards work for some things but I found them useless for complex behaviors or for undoing bad behaviors, like I had wth rescues. Just like with a prong, trainers tell you to bribe your dogs with food but not how to stop using them. And personally, I think withholding food is more cruel than any collar except a heads collar. Those are real torture devices for an active dog,


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> I was introduced to a prong collar with my first GSD as an adult and it was like being handed a magic key. That dog had high prey drive, I was not equipped for it and I could not manage without it. Was I a bad trainer? I had previously trained other dogs very well in obedience using old style methods that worked. The prong worked with the GSD in ways other methods didn't. I look at it like any tool, it's there for a purpose and if we need it we use it.
> 
> I was never taught how to get a dog off the prong, which is a failure of training, not my failure. I never even thought about getting off of it as a goal until my dog suddenly didn't need it. Food based rewards work for some things but I found them useless for complex behaviors or for undoing bad behaviors, like I had wth rescues. Just like with a prong, trainers tell you to bribe your dogs with food but not how to stop using them. And personally, I think withholding food is more cruel than any collar except a heads collar. Those are real torture devices for an active dog,


This is what I don't understand. Everything is so black and white with people. You are either yanking and cranking with a prong collar, or you are dancing treats in front of your dogs nose and never even saying "No" to him. Neither is actually correct. 

I very rarely use treats at all. Treats are a pain in my butt. Who wants slimy crap in their pockets all the time. I will use them for puppies in that first class, but really just to teach them what "Good boy, what a good boy you are!" means. Kind of like loading a clicker (which I don't use either). 

But you can certainly screw up with treats. I sold a puppy to a lady who has an adult daughter living with her. And the puppy was a nice dog. It was a little bitey, and they were taking it to doggy daycare and had a purely positive trainer on board. Get this, the dog would leap up to counter surf, and they would lure the dog away with a treat. ls that freaking nuts or what??? The dog started jumping up on the counters or table to be given a treat! 

So the pup is getting way out of control, and they go to the other extreme. The pup was about 1 year old and it was porting a prong collar and an e-collar. The adult daughter had the remote. We had about 9 GSDs all running around with each other in the basement, 3 4-month old puppies, and the other dogs mostly pretty young -- 8 months to 3 years. I did not hear the woman's first command. I heard the second, and saw the dog visibly flinch. 

I asked, did you just zap her with the collar, and she told me "yes, I told her twice to come, and she didn't." I dunno, I think giving a puppy a command that she has little chance of obeying and then zapping them for not, isn't good training. And, when the distraction is a group of dogs all playing, zapping the dog in that situation might create dog-dog issues. 

And punishing a recall is just a bad idea anyway, especially with a youngster in a situation that is uncommon and highly distracting. 

Bad training is bad training. 

In time, with maturation, and with the intelligence of the lines, this pup will be quite manageable and pleasant to own by these folks. I know they do love her. But, they are going to believe that it is the e-collar or the prong collar that has gotten their dog under control. When it is just as possible that the e-collar is aggravating issues that could have been long over with. 

Ah well. Now that is a case of being more on the extreme end, and I do know that when used correctly, it is just a communication tool, like a clicker, is. At the end of the day, there are a lot of people using correction collars that are not being cruel, and a lot of people not using correction collars that are not snowflakes spewing treats all over the place. 

I don't use prongs or e-collars, because I don't want to have to rely on something that I can't use in the ring. And I don't use treats for the same reason. I am one of those terrible owners that buys cheese for my dogs and will go to the fridge and get them a piece and just give it to them. For nothing. Do you want a piece of cheese? Darn, I think I am totally out of cheese. LOL! But I expect my dogs to do what I say, and the reward, is my letting them know that they did a good job. Whatever, it works for me. I let them know if they do not do what I wanted right also -- a quick Eh-eh and repeating and helping. They learn so quick. I love my dogs.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

selzer said:


> GSDs commonly display SSA and inter-pack aggression. With a strong enough physical correction, you might be able to eliminate the behavior, but not the reasons behind the behavior. If your other dog is a female, would strongly suggest not leaving them together without supervision, you might come home to a blood bath. I am not saying it will happen, but it is certainly possible. Much less likely if the other dog is a male.


Definitely possible, possible with any breed as well. As a matter of practice though they're never alone unsupervised together, and never will be. Dogs should never (in my opinion, in our home at least) be left to free roam. There's just no reason for that to ever happen. They're either active and with us (or in place with us in the room) or they're in their crate. 

Neither ever plays with the children unsupervised either. In my mind while they are beloved parts of our family and I'd do anything I could for them, they're still dogs. They have no business doing anything without our supervision and if they're ever in a situation where they can destroy our property, hurt each other, someone else, another animal or themselves - it's our fault and we have no business having them in the first place. I have had a lot of dogs over the years and have had full faith in most all of them once they were adults... It's just not worth the risk. To me if they're living a good life, they're working with us. They're training with us, or playing outside with us. Whenever they're in the house they should be tired enough all they want to do is rest anyway. That being the case, might as well do it in place if we're present or in the crate if we're not.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> I was introduced to a prong collar with my first GSD as an adult and it was like being handed a magic key. That dog had high prey drive, I was not equipped for it and I could not manage without it. Was I a bad trainer? I had previously trained other dogs very well in obedience using old style methods that worked. The prong worked with the GSD in ways other methods didn't. I look at it like any tool, it's there for a purpose and if we need it we use it.


Exactly. It's a tool. Just like treats are a tool, praise, martingales or anything else. And just like anything else (even treats) if used incorrectly it is abusive and cruel. Some dogs, just like people, respond to some things better than others. 

For me the biggest thing about the prong collar was seeing a few skilled prong trainers introduce the dogs to it. It's all about letting the dog do the work and making sure the dog realizes before it's used in the real world that it controls whether or not it feels the pressure. Not me. If it feels pressure and gets uncomfortable, that was it's own doing and once it understands how to turn that off, it does it. If my hand moves, it's a slight flinch of two fingers just to remind her she's an inch or two too far back or too far ahead. She pulled a couple of times and has never done it again. Lesson learned forever in less than 5 minutes. To me that's far less cruel than what we had been doing. She wasn't getting it, it wasn't working and she was coughing, gagging and nearly choking herself out every single walk. No matter how much we worked on other methods that seemed they should have worked.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't like leaving a dog in a crate. I have crates. In the winter, when I bring them in in the very cold weather, they will sleep in crates, side by side. Riding in the SUV, they would be crated, but that is gone now, so now they get the back seat, and the crate is just too big, so... I use a crate when cleaning kennels, Milla is crated. So I can walk through her area, and then put Bear in her area while I take care of Odie and Bear's area. 

I was working an hour away. So if I kept a dog crated while at work, it would be 10 hours, minimum. The idea of leaving a dog in a crate for 10 hours, regularly, 5 or 6 days every week in my opinion, is abusive. Whereas a dog that is properly kenneled, is not alone, it can drink, eat, and relieve itself. It can move around and find a comfortable position. It can watch the world go by, bark, rest and sleep. If you need to work another 4 hours, or get in an accident on the way home, or try to drive through an ice-storm, taking 4 hours to get home (been there, done that), the dog is not crossing its legs waiting for you to come and let him out to potty. If you must spend the night away from home, for a family emergency or whatever, your dogs will be fine, kenneled. 

And sometimes, it is simply not appropriate to bring your dog with you.

Currently, I have Karma (4 years) and Ramona (1 year) together, but they are mother and daughter. I have CujoII (4 years) and Hepzibah (6 years) together. He is fixed, she is not. It's only dicey when she is in heat, because he acts like he is not fixed. But that, too, is actually natural. They do fine together, as most male/female pairs do. Jenna (11 years) and Kojak (5 months) are kenneled together. Neither is fixed, but Jenna came out about a month ago, and I will separate them while she is in heat next. And Babs (11 years) and Quinn ( 18 months) are kenneled together. They are are not mother and daughter, and both are intact. But, they have the right personalities to be fine together. I am not worried. 

The rest of my girls are kenneled separately for their safety and my piece of mind. The kennels holding 2 dogs are twice as big as the ones that hold 1, and I can easily separate (close an gate between) if necessary. Some of the bitches might be fine together, Milla (8) and Joy(7) but it is a maybe. 

I know that when I homed Nikki and Nina when they were 3 years old, and they were taken out of the kennel they shared with Jenna, that was very hard on their dam, because she was accustomed to not being alone in a kennel. I gave her the puppy, and she has become like a youngster again. I had Odessa kenneled with Oscar, and when I sold him, well, I think Odie would prefer a kennel-mate, but I can't keep the weight off of her, so, she really needs to be on her own. And Bear, bear loved having the pups in with her. 

She is not all alone, She can see Odie out front, and she can be up close and personal with Milla in the back. But I think she would be happier sharing her kennel with another dog. 

The beauty of kennels is that there really isn't anything in them that can hurt them or be destroyed by them, save maybe a toy. When I get home, the dogs are all happy to see me, but they aren't bursting with energy, as so many crated dogs seem to be. Yes, they are dogs, and too much freedom can be bad for them, get them in trouble. I think too much restriction can be too. 




NerdicEclipse said:


> Definitely possible, possible with any breed as well. As a matter of practice though they're never alone unsupervised together, and never will be. Dogs should never (in my opinion, in our home at least) be left to free roam. There's just no reason for that to ever happen. They're either active and with us (or in place with us in the room) or they're in their crate.
> 
> Neither ever plays with the children unsupervised either. In my mind while they are beloved parts of our family and I'd do anything I could for them, they're still dogs. They have no business doing anything without our supervision and if they're ever in a situation where they can destroy our property, hurt each other, someone else, another animal or themselves - it's our fault and we have no business having them in the first place. I have had a lot of dogs over the years and have had full faith in most all of them once they were adults... It's just not worth the risk. To me if they're living a good life, they're working with us. They're training with us, or playing outside with us. Whenever they're in the house they should be tired enough all they want to do is rest anyway. That being the case, might as well do it in place if we're present or in the crate if we're not.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

selzer said:


> I don't like leaving a dog in a crate. I have crates. In the winter, when I bring them in in the very cold weather, they will sleep in crates, side by side. Riding in the SUV, they would be crated, but that is gone now, so now they get the back seat, and the crate is just too big, so... I use a crate when cleaning kennels, Milla is crated. So I can walk through her area, and then put Bear in her area while I take care of Odie and Bear's area.
> 
> I was working an hour away. So if I kept a dog crated while at work, it would be 10 hours, minimum. The idea of leaving a dog in a crate for 10 hours, regularly, 5 or 6 days every week in my opinion, is abusive. Whereas a dog that is properly kenneled, is not alone, it can drink, eat, and relieve itself. It can move around and find a comfortable position. It can watch the world go by, bark, rest and sleep. If you need to work another 4 hours, or get in an accident on the way home, or try to drive through an ice-storm, taking 4 hours to get home (been there, done that), the dog is not crossing its legs waiting for you to come and let him out to potty. If you must spend the night away from home, for a family emergency or whatever, your dogs will be fine, kenneled.
> 
> ...


Oh, I understand. However the bulk of their inside time is spent in "place" if we're not actively doing something in the house with them. And when they're there, they are sleepy anyway so it's seldom an issue. The crate is plenty of room for her when we're gone though. I work from home. There's rarely a time they're completely alone crated for more than an hour or two. Never 3-4+ in a crate. She gets a ton of exercise and neither wants for anything as far as playtime, love and working goes. But I agree largely with you if our situation was different. As huge as her crate is we'd still have a different setup for the dogs if they were alone more than an hour or two at a time.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> This is what I don't understand. Everything is so black and white with people. You are either yanking and cranking with a prong collar, or you are dancing treats in front of your dogs nose and never even saying "No" to him. Neither is actually correct.
> 
> I very rarely use treats at all. Treats are a pain in my butt. Who wants slimy crap in their pockets all the time. I will use them for puppies in that first class, but really just to teach them what "Good boy, what a good boy you are!" means. Kind of like loading a clicker (which I don't use either).
> 
> ...


You are assuming people, go from one extreme to the other. That was not the case with my dog. I was taking a class the first time with a group. We started out alright, but as it got more complicated, the methods the trainer suggested were not working in a group setting. This was years ago and we were not using treats. The trainer suggested a prong and I said no. But I still wasn't getting where I needed to go. Finally, the trainer said we could not come back without the prong. There were reasons for it. My dog had an exceptionally high prey drive. She was focusing on all the smaller dogs and not on me. We were doing alright at home and in the neighborhood but when we got to class, she was horrible. 

Now, our local classes either require a prong or they are all PO. We have nothing in between. I actually had to beg a trainer to let me use a toy in an advanced sport class rather than treats. I haven't signed up yet because I won't use treats for the same reasons you don't and I'm not ready for the restrictions they impose on dogs in that class.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> You are assuming people, go from one extreme to the other. That was not the case with my dog. I was taking a class the first time with a group. We started out alright, but as it got more complicated, the methods the trainer suggested were not working in a group setting. This was years ago and we were not using treats. The trainer suggested a prong and I said no. But I still wasn't getting where I needed to go. Finally, the trainer said we could not come back without the prong. There were reasons for it. My dog had an exceptionally high prey drive. She was focusing on all the smaller dogs and not on me. We were doing alright at home and in the neighborhood but when we got to class, she was horrible.
> 
> Now, our local classes either require a prong or they are all PO. We have nothing in between. I actually had to beg a trainer to let me use a toy in an advanced sport class rather than treats. I haven't signed up yet because I won't use treats for the same reasons you don't and I'm not ready for the restrictions they impose on dogs in that class.


No, the people that I sold that pup did, but mostly I was talking about the people here who are posting about positive only, etc. They seem to think that you are either using a prong collar or e-collar on a dog, or you are giving cookies for everything and not even saying "No." 

When in fact, people who use prong collars generally use a lot more treats than I do. 

If a trainer believes that your dog is likely to injure another person's dog in your class, I can understand them requiring more control -- correction collar, or that you no return. 

But in general, I will go to a class where trainers encourage the use of prongs, but do not require it. My favorite trainers often encourage others to use a prong on their dog. They don't bother with me on that. I really am a crappy student. They say, bring a mat and bring treats. Ok, I am not into the mat thing. Not at all. And I don't bring one. If they put a piece of foam on the floor for my home-space, ok, but I have enough to manage with the barfy puppy. I am bringing a puppy not a toddler. I don't have a diaper bag for my dog. Sorry. 

Geeze, they use clickers, and jars of pennies, and prong collars, and treats, and mats, and muzzles, and a toy to redirect to, and higher value treats, and remotes, and so on and so forth. What in the world did they do 100 years ago???

No I am NOT going to wear a carpenter's apron so I can stuff the right treat into my dog's mouth at the right time. I want carry halt on my belt or an air horn. I wont carry a jar of pennies. I know I am lazy, but sometimes less is more. Yes, it is easy to train SIT by drawing the treat up and over the head so the butt goes down. But there are other ways to teach it as well. You don't have to yank and crank, you can help a dog reach a position and praise the position. You don't have to stuff sugary treats into the puppy. No wonder they are bouncing off the walls. Half the puppies out there are on a sugar-high.

Some are on a sugar high because of their dog food.

What is seriously lacking in dogs today is common sense. We are not going to instill common sense in people by employing a mat or a carpenter's apron full of gadgets. We won't instill common sense with e-collars or prong collars or treats. Ensuring a dog that is going for other dogs in the class is kept under stronger management IS common sense. And sticking with the class sessions, when clearly that is what you needed was also common sense. Why we are creating dogs with such high prey drive is a question for another day and another thread probably.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Selzer, I'm with you! I hated puppy class when they started stuffing treats in my dog because I didn't bring any. I had some kibble and my dog wasn't interested. I don't bribe my dogs. I told the assistant I could not do what they said. I didn't have enough hands. You can't hold a leash, click at just the right time and push treats with only two hands. Their solution was to treat for me. I appreciate that other people can make it work but I couldn't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> Selzer, I'm with you! I hated puppy class when they started stuffing treats in my dog because I didn't bring any. I had some kibble and my dog wasn't interested. I don't bribe my dogs. I told the assistant I could not do what they said. I didn't have enough hands. You can't hold a leash, click at just the right time and push treats with only two hands. Their solution was to treat for me. I appreciate that other people can make it work but I couldn't.


Exactly!!! 

Some of us just have enough to manage without treats or clickers or jars of pennies. I need my dog to be manageable with a leash and my voice. 

Sometimes I think people are spending more time trying to figure out all the crap they need to train, that they aren't spending the time learning the dog. We are paying attention to the extras, instead of the pup.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I think a large part of the tools used and what works, whether it be treats, slip collar, martingale, prong collar, etc depend on the dog and handler. What ever gets the best results and maintains a happy temperament in the dog works for me. Some folks have less expectation or need and have more sensitive dogs, others want or need to achieve something more or different in their training. The dogs may also be higher drive and harder. 

Not all dogs need a prong just as not all dogs can be worked on a martingale or slip collar. There are a lot of ways to drive from NY to California. The important thing is to choose a route where you are comfortable and arrive safely. Dog training is a journey and not a race. The fastest way doesn't always win in the long term.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Pinch collars were not made to yank and crank a dog. When I see people yanking and cranking with pinch collars....most times it is not only not needed but not effective. People who get emotional about training or tools are also limited in the dogs they can train because stuff travels down the leash. 
One last thing, there is a big difference in training a dog in drive and out of drive. That is the big difference in sport/LE training and AKC/pet training....training a dog in drive. Things change when a dog goes into drive whether it is purposely like sport or initiated by dog like excessive aggression. I have had multiple students that had trained multiple dogs to UD titles, that when they started training in sport work took a long time to handle dog in drive though they had reached highest levels in AKC training out of drive. So we must be careful with our advice in that it lines up with the circumstances....all dog training is not the same nor do the same things work across the board.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Pinch collars were not made to yank and crank a dog. When I see people yanking and cranking with pinch collars....most times it is not only not needed but not effective. People who get emotional about training or tools are also limited in the dogs they can train because stuff travels down the leash.
> One last thing, there is a big difference in training a dog in drive and out of drive. That is the big difference in sport/LE training and AKC/pet training....training a dog in drive. Things change when a dog goes into drive whether it is purposely like sport or initiated by dog like excessive aggression. I have had multiple students that had trained multiple dogs to UD titles, that when they started training in sport work took a long time to handle dog in drive though they had reached highest levels in AKC training out of drive. So we must be careful with our advice in that it lines up with the circumstances....all dog training is not the same nor do the same things work across the board.


This is an excellent point! 

I have a friend that I train with that has a high drive, super nice malinois. The guy spent a lot of time working with his dog from a pup doing focused heeling, tricks and various behaviors. The dog is extremely well trained in obedience. It is super flashy, fast, happy and very precise. It is embarrassing for people to do obedience after this guy and his dog. To give an example, he has taught the dog to sit on it's hind legs and hold it's front paws up, then he says a different command and the dog stands on it's hind legs like a kangaroo and walks in circles. He has taught the dog to down and roll right or left based on command and the dog will do this across a field. We started doing bite work with his dog and putting his dog in drive. The dog would eb an excellent patrol dog and takes bite work very seriously, I offered to buy him for our PD but the handler will not sell him. This is a tough dog that the handler has done an excellent job with. We have done some bite work and I wanted to add in some control. I tell the handler to heel his dog around me and sit next to me. Guess what? All that fancy obedience and control went right out the window when the dog was in drive the first time he tried to heel around me. The dog wouldn't listen, wouldn't heel and was dragging the handler to me. 

The point is, even the best trained dogs when put into drive may not respond. That is the point to teaching, training and proofing. Ineffective corrections, the wrong tools will not help if the dog is in "drive." It was eye opening for the handler in this case. I was not surprised as I'm sure other's wouldn't be either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> Pinch collars were not made to yank and crank a dog. When I see people yanking and cranking with pinch collars....most times it is not only not needed but not effective. People who get emotional about training or tools are also limited in the dogs they can train because stuff travels down the leash.
> One last thing, there is a big difference in training a dog in drive and out of drive. That is the big difference in sport/LE training and AKC/pet training....training a dog in drive. Things change when a dog goes into drive whether it is purposely like sport or initiated by dog like excessive aggression. I have had multiple students that had trained multiple dogs to UD titles, that when they started training in sport work took a long time to handle dog in drive though they had reached highest levels in AKC training out of drive. So we must be careful with our advice in that it lines up with the circumstances....all dog training is not the same nor do the same things work across the board.



While this may be true, the vast majority of people cannot even manage to get a Rally title on their dog, which is ridiculous and disgusting. They aren't trying to work a dog in drive. They are trying not to be pulled down the street -- that is why they use prong collars. I did mention in one of my posts that those who are using the collars for advanced training -- not going to comment yay or nay. 

And, I am not emotional over training tools. I am sick of hearing people say their dogs need them. The fact of the matter is that they need them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> I think a large part of the tools used and what works, whether it be treats, slip collar, martingale, prong collar, etc depend on the dog and handler. What ever gets the best results and maintains a happy temperament in the dog works for me. Some folks have less expectation or need and have more sensitive dogs, others want or need to achieve something more or different in their training. The dogs may also be higher drive and harder.
> 
> *Not all dogs need a prong just as not all dogs can be worked on a martingale or slip collar. *There are a lot of ways to drive from NY to California. The important thing is to choose a route where you are comfortable and arrive safely. Dog training is a journey and not a race. The fastest way doesn't always win in the long term.


Any dog can be worked on a martingale. The problem is that not every dog/handler team is capable of making that happen. Most likely, though, is that most people do not give it the ole college try. They believe out of the gate that their dog will need a prong collar, will need NILIF, is hard, is high energy/high drive, is dominant and aggressive, and so on and so forth. 

I've told the story of Greta here. The owner had a trainer that told them the youngster was hard and stubborn. She was neither. I think it is what people want to hear. I think too many trainers have no clue that there are GSDs that are hard and GSDs that are soft, and what each looks like, as well as the realm of real estate in-between. 

Again, I've taken prong collars off of dogs from people who swear the dog needs the collars and have had no trouble with them on a simple martingale. It is really all I use. The thing is, I handle dogs without collars period. I only put a collar on a dog if we are leaving the property. So, the dog listens to me without any handle of any sort. And when I put the collar on, it truly doesn't matter what type of collar is used, because the do already has a relationship, an understanding with me. Not trained. But certainly manageable. And, let's face it, the majority of people sporting prongs on their dogs are doing it to manage the dogs.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

selzer said:


> Any dog can be worked on a martingale. The problem is that not every dog/handler team is capable of making that happen. Most likely, though, is that most people do not give it the ole college try. They believe out of the gate that their dog will need a prong collar, will need NILIF, is hard, is high energy/high drive, is dominant and aggressive, and so on and so forth.
> 
> I've told the story of Greta here. The owner had a trainer that told them the youngster was hard and stubborn. She was neither. I think it is what people want to hear. I think too many trainers have no clue that there are GSDs that are hard and GSDs that are soft, and what each looks like, as well as the realm of real estate in-between.
> 
> Again, I've taken prong collars off of dogs from people who swear the dog needs the collars and have had no trouble with them on a simple martingale. It is really all I use. The thing is, I handle dogs without collars period. I only put a collar on a dog if we are leaving the property. So, the dog listens to me without any handle of any sort. And when I put the collar on, it truly doesn't matter what type of collar is used, because the do already has a relationship, an understanding with me. Not trained. But certainly manageable. And, let's face it, the majority of people sporting prongs on their dogs are doing it to manage the dogs.


Well, I'm not one of the people that swears the dog needs a prong collar, nor am I one of the people who's dog you have taken a prong collar off. We work and own different GSD's. In our breed the GSD comes in many flavors, sizes and temperaments. You would not work my male dogs on a martingale, my female maybe. You also would not do well with my dogs with out a reward based system they find meaningful, they enjoy praise but want more. I'm can certainly appreciate the relationship that you have with your dogs. I have a similar relationship with mine. Around the yard there are no corrections, no leash, no collar and the dog responds. Once we leave the yard and go out into the real world collars are a necessity. For some of my dogs, collars and a leash are needed to protect silly people from my dogs and irresponsible dog owners that can not control their dogs from my dogs. 

I will simply state that when you have higher drive dogs, dogs who's engines rev at higher RPM's, the collar matters. A relationship with your dogs is great and I have an awesome relationship with all of my dogs. I am not leaving the house with a martingale on any of my dogs. Sure, some people, probably the majority are trying to manage their dogs and for them a martingale or slip collar will not work. For others with the mores serious, more intense and more driven dogs the martingale and slip collar are not even a consideration. 

I understand where you are coming from and I respect your experience in breeding. We are just talking about different dogs, virtually different breeds, and different management styles. If you are having success with the martingale and that is your collar of choice, I'm all for it for you and your dogs. We have different experiences and I appreciate that your success with the martingale. It simply would not work for me and my dogs and I'm quite good with that. :wink2: That doesn't make me right and you wrong, or you right and me wrong. Just different experiences with different dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> Well, I'm not one of the people that swears the dog needs a prong collar, nor am I one of the people who's dog you have taken a prong collar off. We work and own different GSD's. In our breed the GSD comes in many flavors, sizes and temperaments. You would not work my male dogs on a martingale, my female maybe. You also would not do well with my dogs with out a reward based system they find meaningful, they enjoy praise but want more. I'm can certainly appreciate the relationship that you have with your dogs. I have a similar relationship with mine. Around the yard there are no corrections, no leash, no collar and the dog responds. Once we leave the yard and go out into the real world collars are a necessity. For some of my dogs, collars and a leash are needed to protect silly people from my dogs and irresponsible dog owners that can not control their dogs from my dogs.
> 
> I will simply state that when you have higher drive dogs, dogs who's engines rev at higher RPM's, the collar matters. A relationship with your dogs is great and I have an awesome relationship with all of my dogs. I am not leaving the house with a martingale on any of my dogs. Sure, some people, probably the majority are trying to manage their dogs and for them a martingale or slip collar will not work. For others with the mores serious, more intense and more driven dogs the martingale and slip collar are not even a consideration.
> 
> I understand where you are coming from and I respect your experience in breeding. We are just talking about different dogs, virtually different breeds, and different management styles. If you are having success with the martingale and that is your collar of choice, I'm all for it for you and your dogs. We have different experiences and I appreciate that your success with the martingale. It simply would not work for me and my dogs and I'm quite good with that. :wink2: That doesn't make me right and you wrong, or you right and me wrong. Just different experiences with different dogs.


Once my dogs are trained, the collar is not needed off the property. It isn't the collar that keeps others safe from my dogs, and it isn't the collar that keeps them safe from the dangers out there. I have a problem where I drop things. When I am working with a lead, the dogs will stop and come back to me if I drop the lead. But I have to have them under voice control. Because if I dropped the lead of a dog that is not under voice control, then that dog might be very dead, very quick. I don't want that to happen. 

Frankly, I cannot imagine owning a dog that I needed a prong collar in order to control, in order to feel safe with off my property, in public.

This breed is intelligent enough to guide blind people; to herd hundreds of sheep, cattle, ducks, whatever; to work as police and military dogs; to be gentle with babies and children and neighbor children. If we are making dogs that cannot walk outside without a prong collar on them, than we are doing something terribly wrong.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

selzer said:


> Once my dogs are trained, the collar is not needed off the property. It isn't the collar that keeps others safe from my dogs, and it isn't the collar that keeps them safe from the dangers out there. I have a problem where I drop things. When I am working with a lead, the dogs will stop and come back to me if I drop the lead. But I have to have them under voice control. Because if I dropped the lead of a dog that is not under voice control, then that dog might be very dead, very quick. I don't want that to happen.
> 
> Frankly, I cannot imagine owning a dog that I needed a prong collar in order to control, in order to feel safe with off my property, in public.
> 
> This breed is intelligent enough to guide blind people; to herd hundreds of sheep, cattle, ducks, whatever; to work as police and military dogs; to be gentle with babies and children and neighbor children. If we are making dogs that cannot walk outside without a prong collar on them, than we are doing something terribly wrong.


I never said that prong collars are mandatory. The dogs you describe are lovely and awesome. I have one GSD like that right now and have owned several over the years like you describe, American lines, WGSL, ASL and WGWL dogs. Unfortunately, the temperaments you are describing are not the dogs serving in LE and MWD's as patrol dogs. At least, IMO they shouldn't. 

I concur, things have been done terribly wrong with the breed, the main thing that has been done wrong is removing the working ability of the GSD. Each year fewer and fewer are used as seeing eye dogs and patrol dogs. That is what is terribly wrong. Back in the 90's you could get a GSD to do both, now it's harder and harder to find a dog capable of guide dog work or LE work. 

Again, we see different things in the breed and we can agree to disagree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Slamdunc, 

The dogs I am talking about are my own dogs, most of them bred by me. And yes, I currently have a dog out there that is being called out for police work, that is, he does searches and engages with escaped prisoners. I have dogs out there doing schutzhund and protection sports. I have dogs out there that are service dogs -- not seeing eye, but service dogs nonetheless. I have a pup out there doing her UD. These dogs have working ability. 

It is really irritating to hear you constantly suggest that because my dogs are trainable and manageable, they are worthless, or do not contain what you think GSDs' temperaments ought to be. They are WGSL dogs, and they actually can work.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh by and large JQP has zero interest in working a dog in high drive??? I agree, people just want to be able to walk there dogs without being dragged down the street. And to a lot of "family pets" ... anything that moves could be considered a "Helper???" And some of the worst behaved, and most unpredictable dogs are not "MWD/LE or PPD's" they are "Family Pets" and are in people's homes. Those are the dogs that keep trainers that specialize in "Aggressive Dog Rehab" busy ... I am "assuming???" 

Aww well I guess "my standards" are pretty freaking high??? Rocky and I just came across one of "Dayton's" K9's ... safely contained in a Extended cab pickup truck. On our walk tonight ... I took not of the vehical because well that is what I do. Ir noticed the bar grid on the windows and a fan installed on the window and it was marked K9 ... pretty cool. It was parked next to sidewalk and I hear nothing and saw nothing from a distance?? 

As it is not my intent to agitate dogs ... I assumed the vehical was empty??? So we proceed on the sidewalk. When Rocky stops and alerts??? WTH dog ... move there is nothing here to cause an issue??? So we proceed and ... I was wrong! As we approached on the sidewalk clearly behind the vehical from the inside I hear a dog barking it's head off??? 

Apparently ... Rocky knew there was a dog in that vehical and I did not??? Difference is as I understand it, my dog did what the dogs of war did in Nam. He alerted me to a "situation" but he did not make a sound! The K9 however went off just like JQP's tool of a dog in a car at the "Grocery Store Parking Lot" does barking it's b... utt off! Rocky made no reply to the dog, as we proceeded on course. I would "assume" that a professionally trained K9 ... would be trained to "ignore other dogs???" But apparently ... such is not the case??? But you know that was a "WL GSD" I assume and my non tool
like dog is just a simple "OS GSD." 

But back on pointe, dogs in drive or for "Pet People" excited or agitated dogs?? I don't fight that crap ... I use a SLL and I use a knee if required becasue I don't say a single "word to them" while working with them and from there ... I wait them out! SLL just makes that easier but most likely "I" could do the same thing with a Flat Leash and Collar??? I don't do LE or MWD ... or PPD so I can't speak to those dogs. But I do think that for one to "assume" that all "family pets" are "Soft Dogs" is a rather broad statement??? And as of now ... I expect to have "full control" of any breed of dog I own off leash or not. If I see that such is not the case??? Then I have a problem and we don't go forward until that crap is solved ... whatever it takes! 

Just cause a dog is a working K9 ... does not automatically make them superior, some of them apparently aren't that good at doing what I take for grant ... just saying.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

How many times have I seen a person come on this board and complain about their dog trying to attack another dog thus excessively pulling while taking said dog for a walk. THAT is a dog in DRIVE! .....THEY are JQP.....sigh!!!
Yes, the breed has broken into different types of dogs, I have and still train ALL the types, and as Jim says you use the tool that is most effective for the dog and the circumstances. 
When I am called to fix/solve problems they do not call me for working line only, or Showlines only, AND most times the issues are for problems of aggression or excessive pulling or controls in which the dog has spiked into drive.....again for JQP.
Knowing the little bit I know about dogs, I know I could NOT be successful if I went to these homes with a set way (or tools) of solving issues; before seeing dogs, circumstances, AND ability of one holding the leash. Likewise, when I give advise on forums, I try to suggest the most practical way to help OP based on those same variables.....and one size does NOT fit all in my limited experience.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> While this may be true, the vast majority of people cannot even manage to get a Rally title on their dog, which is ridiculous and disgusting. They aren't trying to work a dog in drive. They are trying not to be pulled down the street -- that is why they use prong collars. I did mention in one of my posts that those who are using the collars for advanced training -- not going to comment yay or nay.
> 
> And, I am not emotional over training tools. I am sick of hearing people say their dogs need them. The fact of the matter is that they need them.


I assume you mean " don't need them"?.
I think Jim and I have both said that in some cases pinch collars are NOT needed. But correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression from your posts that you don't think there is place for them in use for everyday ( JQP) folks. 
Also, many people who use pinch collars have been advised to do so because it is best option for them to be able to walk their dogs considering all the circumstances involved. I have advised folks to use pinch collar on many occasions, though I don't personally use one for obedience with pretty strong dogs ( so I guess that kills the theory that I have to or only believe in these collars for training), but many times when all options are considered this is best option for that dog or that individual......in that situation.
I am a very patient man when it comes to dogs, but what irritates me are dogmatic people in training. The most effective dog people I have been around in my life were open minded to training approaches and training tools. Why? Because dogs like people are very complex and one size/way will not work for all.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

sigh, I have much more limited experience than some of y'all. I do walk my big boy off in public with his prong collar. At three years old he is fine almost the entire walk. Toss a critter into the mix and he can go from loose leash calm to serious prey drive in the blink of an eye. The collar simply reminds him that he has limits. In a perfect world all dogs would walk near us and behave like human friends do. But they are often more like toddlers who might just dart out into the street to chase a ball. 
My female, I put the prong on her but clip the leash to the martingale. Just the presence of the prong reminds her to be calmer on leash. I agree to use the tools that each dog needs. No tool is perfect. I get annoyed when people say that they don't use anything aversive, just flat collars and walking harnesses. Any collar or harness can be aversive. It works by making it uncomfortable to go beyond the length of the leash.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> Not all of my dogs are soft. But most are handler sensitive. Probably because I do not work-harden them with a prong collar, LOL! When you immediately go for the big guns, you tend to need big guns. Also, they are not necessarily raised the same way most new puppies that go to a new home are raised. They are not brought into a new situation and then expected to be the center of attention, bullied or spoiled, by people with limited experience or instinctive dog handling skill.
> 
> If you skip most of the common pitfalls, you rarely have to deal with the problems that most people resort to prong collars for.
> 
> ...


I'll just throw this out there. My dog is soft, and handler sensitive. He is so biddable. He uses a martingale as his regular daily collar because he has a very rare habit of backing out of the collar to get out of something he doesn't want to do. Since he knows just the technique to pop out he never goes anywhere or does anything in a flat collar. (Don't ask me why he has persisted so long with this, he has been in a martingale since he was a baby because of this and I NEVER let him get away with it and yet he tries every once in a blue moon)

I use a prong collar on him in certain situations. He is a big dog, very muscular, VERY strong, and on the rare occasions that he gets fired up over something and forgets his obedience, I need a little extra. 99% of the time I never give him an actually correction on it. Selzer mentions "work harden" the dog with the prong, I find my dog to be kind of the opposite. He gets stronger and less sensitive on the martingale, loses focus easier and then it takes bigger of everything to get back on track. When he is on a prong, he is much more sensitive and I can communicate with him on a much more subtle level. I feel like the prong has the opposite effect of what selzer was implying that the prong makes the dog "hardened" to corrections or handling?? If I am understanding correctly. 

I went to a lot of trouble to teach my dog about the prong without letting him ever run head long into it and give himself a big correction without any groundwork first. Because he is soft, and he is sensitive, and I did not want him to have any negative effects from wearing the prong. I don't think he has had any. He simply realized leaning on the collar is less comfortable and he has to put in a little more effort to avoid that.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I just read back a little farther and found this quote from Selzer:

Suggesting it is right for 95% of owners, well, I think wherever you pulled that statistic out of is wrong as well as ridiculous. And, that it is good for 98% of dogs, I flat out disagree. I think that you are suggesting all dogs save the 1-2% of dogs that are strongly dominant/independent and possibly handler aggressive are the only dogs that would not benefit from having the prong collar used on them. I think a majority of soft and biddable dogs that have no need of strong corrections, can actually be negatively impacted by prong collars. 

In fact, when you use a prong on a dog that does not require that level of correction, you are actually dulling their natural ability to work with the owner without serious corrections. It is like whispering and shouting. If you tell your kids to clean up their room, and they ignore you so you shout at them to clean their room. Pretty soon, they need to be shouted at. They will ignore your normal tones and listen only to shouts and whispers. You can do that to dogs too. 98% of dogs do not NEED prong collars. Nor should they be used on 98% of dogs."

With my dog, the prong feels a lot more like talking than shouting. He handles the same way on a martingale (talking) at a lower level of arousal.

I see the terms "strong corrections" and "serious corrections" associated with the prong. That's not what I use it for. By and large, my dog does not require strong or serious corrections. I VERY rarely give him leash corrections at all, let alone a hard correction.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

To go back to Selzer's mule bit analogy, classic dressage is ridden in a double bridle, with both a snaffle (bridoon) and a curb bit. Why should horses that are so highly trained be ridden that way? Because the double bridle allows very fine-tuned communication with the horse, and enables the rider to increase the amount of collection, in a way that can't be done with just a snaffle.

I've heard people say the same thing about the use of e-collars in high level schutzhund training. Unfortunately, the level of finesse required to do this with both the double bridle and the collar, without causing abuse and pain to the animal, is beyond most peoples' ability and understanding. Even in Olympic level dressage it is quite common to see horses with gaping mouths and blue tongues.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Open mindedness is what is found in the truly gifted teachers, trainers, parents, dog owners, doctors, veterinarians etc. One size does not fit all. 
"Don't criticize what you don't understand" -Bob Dylan.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

:thumbup: SO true, Jenny!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> To go back to Selzer's mule bit analogy, classic dressage is ridden in a double bridle, with both a snaffle (bridoon) and a curb bit. Why should horses that are so highly trained be ridden that way? Because the double bridle allows very fine-tuned communication with the horse, and enables the rider to increase the amount of collection, in a way that can't be done with just a snaffle.
> 
> I've heard people say the same thing about the use of e-collars in high level schutzhund training. Unfortunately, the level of finesse required to do this with both the double bridle and the collar, without causing abuse and pain to the animal, is beyond most peoples' ability and understanding. Even in Olympic level dressage it is quite common to see horses with gaping mouths and blue tongues.


Interesting comparison. Another piece of that would be, put a beginner rider on a horse with a curb bit or a double bridle, and when they use their hands for balance it's going to be pretty rough on the horse. 

Many pet dog owners pull on their dogs as much as the dogs pull on them. 

Actually why I won't let my husband use the prong collar on my dog


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

selzer said:


> While this may be true, *the vast majority of people cannot even manage to get a Rally title on their dog, which is ridiculous and disgusting.* They aren't trying to work a dog in drive. They are trying not to be pulled down the street -- that is why they use prong collars. I did mention in one of my posts that those who are using the collars for advanced training -- not going to comment yay or nay.
> 
> And, I am not emotional over training tools. I am sick of hearing people say their dogs need them. The fact of the matter is that they need them.


Most people aren't even aware rally exists and of those that do and don't compete its usually the handlers fears of stage fright or something along those lines that keeps them away not their dogs ob, at least in my experience. 

We have 4 gsds from different lines and a one size fits will not work. Some require higher levels of corrections than others. Two of them can be generalized as soft or sensitive, applying unecessary levels of correction would most likely shut them down. The other two do best with the clarity a firm fair correction provides. These two will not melt with corrections whether using a prong or ecollar, they quickly move on without missing a beat. Dragging things out with a softer approach will only build frustration, best to correct and move forward with them. Knowing what works best for each dog is paramount.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes- you need to adjust training based on the dog in front of you. My young malinois girl is the kind that bounces back stronger after a correction- she's a fairly "hard" dog. Correct her and she accepts it and moves on instantly. The kind of dog who will take a flying leap after a tug, land in a puddle head first, and bounce up stronger than ever to continue on.

My adult female malinois is a bit more handler sensitive and more likely to object to what she considers an unfair correction. She needs different handling. She really loves the fight, that is what gets her going. But she also loves her person, and that is what really motivates her, working for me. 

Both are good working dogs, they are just different. 

I think what ultimately matters is that you are effectively communicating with the dog. They understand what you want, they understand yes and no. I don't care if a person uses an e-collar, a prong collar, a slip lead, a flat collar, or nothing. I like to see a person first train the dog to understand "how" to train. Then you can mold the dog into doing anything, and they'll understand both praise and correction with whatever tool you have.

I don't just jump to e-collar, or prong. It just depends. Currently, my pup has not experienced any collar corrections, I use verbal and body language. She's been trained mostly with praise and pressure, and I'll certainly use treats and tugs for sport work. 

Point is, as long as your dog understands the training language, and you know how to use the tools, they are not abusive. And often the tool you use depends more on your goals for the dog, than the dog herself and her ingrained drives and genetics.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> While this may be true, the vast majority of people cannot even manage to get a Rally title on their dog, which is ridiculous and disgusting. They aren't trying to work a dog in drive. They are trying not to be pulled down the street -- that is why they use prong collars. I did mention in one of my posts that those who are using the collars for advanced training -- not going to comment yay or nay.
> 
> And, I am not emotional over training tools. I am sick of hearing people say their dogs need them. The fact of the matter is that they need them.


So what if they do? :smile2: I have read as many of your posts as I can since I've been here and feel like I know you fairly well. You are too modest. Most people are not as skilled as you are. I don't think it's an accident you became a breeder and you handle dogs as well as you do. To be an excellent dog handler, it takes the ability to read every dog you handle, to know how to communicate, to read cues, to give cues and to be consistent and patient. You have that ability. Slam does. Cliffson does, although I don't know him that well. Most people don't. They either don't understand how dogs perceive us, or their timing is off, or they don't know how to get from one place to another. Moving a dog is one of the hardest things most of us ever have to do. Getting a dog on the ground from where they are to where we want them to be isn't that easy. Most people use the leash rather than using the dog's natural ability and desire to follow. I learned that from someone who unfortunately has been banned here and can no longer share. When the leash doesn't work, they have to move to a collar that does their work for them


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Apparently ... Rocky knew there was a dog in that vehical and I did not??? Difference is as I understand it, *my dog did what the dogs of war did in Nam.* He alerted me to a "situation" but he did not make a sound! The K9 however went off just like JQP's tool of a dog in a car at the "Grocery Store Parking Lot" does barking it's b... utt off! Rocky made no reply to the dog, as we proceeded on course. I would "assume" that a professionally trained K9 ... would be trained to "ignore other dogs???" But apparently ... such is not the case??? But you know that was a "WL GSD" I assume and my non tool
> like dog is just a simple "OS GSD."
> 
> But back on pointe, dogs in drive or for "Pet People" excited or agitated dogs?? I don't fight that crap ... I use a SLL and I use a knee if required becasue I don't say a single "word to them" while working with them and from there ... I wait them out! SLL just makes that easier but most likely "I" could do the same thing with a Flat Leash and Collar??? I don't do LE or MWD ... or PPD so I can't speak to those dogs. But I do think that for one to "assume" that all "family pets" are "Soft Dogs" is a rather broad statement??? And as of now ... I expect to have "full control" of any breed of dog I own off leash or not. If I see that such is not the case??? Then I have a problem and we don't go forward until that crap is solved ... whatever it takes!
> ...


Your dog is naturally better than dogs of war and K9s? You should talk to Slam at how you can get into the military or police dog selection and training business since you are that talented at it. It sounds from your post like there are a lot of poorly trained dogs in K-9 units and you can fix that.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

To answer the original question, any dog I've had/have, can go out in public. Masi, is probably the toughest dog I've ever had, can go anywhere, do anything, but she is much of a "loner" in that, she has no desire to interact or be 'friends' with anyone or anything out in public..She prefers to mind her own business and expects others to do the same, with that, I actually don't allow people to fawn all over her, because frankly she doesn't appreciate it, but it doesn't mean i have to keep her in a bubble. 

My 6mth old, Ozzie, is a doofy boy, who is certainly interested in anyone who's interested in him, he'll fawn all over you, IF you let him, but he isn't one who "has" to be all over everybody..typical aloof, like most of my other gsd's have been in the past. Interesting thing with him, has been my rather unplanned experiment,,,I haven't really had time to take him out in public places much since I got him..work, life prevented alot of this, but when we do go to a store, park, hiking, wherever I can take him, he is just a go with the flow kinda guy, and adapts to any situation ..

As for prong collars and training, I am all for whatever works for that particular dog..Masi is NOT food motivated AT ALL, she goes bonkers for praise, and that's what I've used for her..Ozzie, is a NOT toy motivated at all, but food will get you everywhere...I have used prong collars on the majority of my gsd's at one time or another as a tool to move forward, havent' on Ozzie, haven't needed to..

So I guess my way of training is certainly not purely positive, certainly not purely corrective..a combo of whatever works for that dog..

And getting dogs with good solid sound genetic backgrounds


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Your dog is naturally better than dogs of war and K9s? You should talk to Slam at how you can get into the military or police dog selection and training business since you are that talented at it. It sounds from your post like there are a lot of poorly trained dogs in K-9 units and you can fix that.


My dog ... naturally alerts I did not "train that behaviour" and he may not do a very low growl also?? I'm not by his head on the ground so I don't know??

I have no idea how well our local K9 units are trained becasue I treat them just like JQP's, dogs and stay well the heck away from them! That's why I was so ... annoyed! Had "I" known that dog was in that vehical ... we'd have taken another path. Police sub station and I'd not seen an extended cab pickup there before??? Usually the K9 vehicles are SUVs the Ford Edge, Sheriff and NHP. 

But Rocky knew something was up and he tried to tell me ... I just misread him??? And that particular K9 went off, while we tried to pass behind the vehical. And he sounded just like any other poorly trained, dog reactive dog in a vehicle, I've heard in the grocery store parking lot. So yes ... color me not impressed. 

Dog's that freaking bark at anything that moves! The SUV K9 units are usually parked up front and I keep well clear of them. If they do have dogs in them ... I don't know?? Because if they do, those dogs don't make a sound! That is what I expect from a well trained "Dog."

Pretty sure I clearly stated I don't do "LE/MWD or PPD??" So you know sorry if my foster fail, OS GSD's behaviour offends folks??? I'll have to tell "Rocky he's suppose to act like some sort unstable, byb, nerve bag ... I guess he did not get the message, stupid dog. But I would expect "Professionally Trained" dogs to be able to at least meet, the same base level of acceptable behaviour as my "Family Pet???" 

I have an extremely low tolerance level for crap behaviour from other people's dogs! That's why I stay well the heck clear of other people's dogs! So yesss ... being barked at ... "ticked me off!" I should have listened to "Rocky." But you know I suppose the answer as to why that particular K9, did that would be "leaking drives??" :grin2:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> I assume you mean " don't need them"?.
> I think Jim and I have both said that in some cases pinch collars are NOT needed. But correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression from your posts that you don't think there is place for them in use for everyday ( JQP) folks.
> Also, many people who use pinch collars have been advised to do so because it is best option for them to be able to walk their dogs considering all the circumstances involved. I have advised folks to use pinch collar on many occasions, though I don't personally use one for obedience with pretty strong dogs ( so I guess that kills the theory that I have to or only believe in these collars for training), but many times when all options are considered this is best option for that dog or that individual......in that situation.
> I am a very patient man when it comes to dogs, but what irritates me are dogmatic people in training. The most effective dog people I have been around in my life were open minded to training approaches and training tools. Why? Because dogs like people are very complex and one size/way will not work for all.



No, I meant they (the owner/handler) needs them. 

I am closed minded on them for every day use, JQP. That does not mean, that I want them banned. I guess my feeling is that if you cannot get a dog to walk without pulling, maybe you can't accurately diagnose whether your dog is soft and shutting down, or hard, dominant, and stubborn. I think most people don't have a clue but they put the magic collar on the dog and suddenly they aren't being dragged, problem solved. And that is the end of it, other than angrily defending the tool at every chance they get, to the point that if your dog doesn't need one, then it isn't a "real" GSD. It can't possibly be because, as a handler, you have learned how to manage dogs without using gadgets. 

For JQP, if you can't take your dog somewhere safely without a prong collar, I don't think you should own the dog. It's funny because I get smacked back and forth for holding that opinion, which I hold because I know it is only a matter of time before, for whatever reason, the leash or collar separates between human and dog, and then what? Be that as it may be, it is not allowed to hold that opinion. But you will be honored for holding the opinion that if you don't want a dog with high energy and high drive, you shouldn't get a GSD.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I just read back a little farther and found this quote from Selzer:
> 
> Suggesting it is right for 95% of owners, well, I think wherever you pulled that statistic out of is wrong as well as ridiculous. And, that it is good for 98% of dogs, I flat out disagree. I think that you are suggesting all dogs save the 1-2% of dogs that are strongly dominant/independent and possibly handler aggressive are the only dogs that would not benefit from having the prong collar used on them. I think a majority of soft and biddable dogs that have no need of strong corrections, can actually be negatively impacted by prong collars.
> 
> ...


You are talking with an amplifier. That is like shouting. And if the dog seems less responsive to the martingale, because you are using a prong collar some of the time, that is exactly what I am talking about. Of course you don't need to do much more than put the collar on the dog, the dog knows that it is there, they get collar-smart. So when you don't have that collar on him, he doesn't have to be as sharp, because you are teaching him that you don't mean business unless he has his big-boy collar on. 

Since I show in AKC, I can't possibly have a dog who is only going to respond well to a prong collar. I won't use them at all, because I don't want my dogs to ignore the martingale.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> My dog ... naturally alerts I did not "train that behaviour" and he may not do a very low growl also?? I'm not by his head on the ground so I don't know??
> 
> I have no idea how well our local K9 units are trained becasue I treat them just like JQP's, dogs and stay well the heck away from them! That's why I was so ... annoyed! Had "I" known that dog was in that vehical ... we'd have taken another path. Police sub station and I'd not seen an extended cab pickup there before??? Usually the K9 vehicles are SUVs the Ford Edge, Sheriff and NHP.
> 
> ...


Are you sure the dog wasn't alerting on you as opposed to Rocky? A human walking towards the dogs vehicle is normally viewed as a threat. Especially a dog trained in le, ppd, or other venues. That's not crap behavior. Those dogs are trained to know that they own humans. They arent oppressed like rocky for being human aggressive, or barking. They have an edge to them. Drive is encouraged. That's the beauty of owning dogs. 
The things that we can shape them naturally doing. A dog like that is impressive to watch. And I'm sure a police officer appreciates a dog like that over one that stands behind him.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Are you sure the dog wasn't alerting on you as opposed to Rocky? A human walking towards the dogs vehicle is normally viewed as a threat. Especially a dog trained in le, ppd, or other venues. That's not crap behavior. Those dogs are trained to know that they own humans. They arent oppressed like rocky for being human aggressive, or barking. They have an edge to them. Drive is encouraged. That's the beauty of owning dogs.
> The things that we can shape them naturally doing. A dog like that is impressive to watch. And I'm sure a police officer appreciates a dog like that over one that stands behind him.


That was my thought too...That the dog was likely more concerned about @Chip18 than Rocky. 

I definitely don't think it's "crap behavior" either. My dog's territoriality about the car, his edginess, and HA saved my booty one night at a gas station.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> No, I meant they (the owner/handler) needs them.
> 
> I am closed minded on them for every day use, JQP. That does not mean, that I want them banned. I guess my feeling is that if you cannot get a dog to walk without pulling, maybe you can't accurately diagnose whether your dog is soft and shutting down, or hard, dominant, and stubborn. I think most people don't have a clue but they put the magic collar on the dog and suddenly they aren't being dragged, problem solved. And that is the end of it, other than angrily defending the tool at every chance they get, to the point that if your dog doesn't need one, then it isn't a "real" GSD. It can't possibly be because, as a handler, you have learned how to manage dogs without using gadgets.
> 
> For JQP, if you can't take your dog somewhere safely without a prong collar, I don't think you should own the dog. It's funny because I get smacked back and forth for holding that opinion, which I hold because I know it is only a matter of time before, for whatever reason, the leash or collar separates between human and dog, and then what? Be that as it may be, it is not allowed to hold that opinion. But you will be honored for holding the opinion that if you don't want a dog with high energy and high drive, you shouldn't get a GSD.


I think everyone is entitled to their opinions, though I think some opinions are more informed then others.
You constantly bring up this rant of high energy or high drive gsd....i don't know about others but this is how I view things. The German Shepherd is a working dog that most of the work it was created for requires it to sometimes be in drive and sometimes not. To have an on and off switch so as to do the work. Any GS that can't turn off the high drive is just as faulty as one that can't turn on high drive. Balance is the key, the same goes for breeders, any breeder that breeds GS that are only high drive are as faulty as a breeder that breeds GS that doesn't have high drive when appropriate. Now my opinion is based on the standard of the breed and what the dog should be capabilitywise, as opposed to any personal likes or bias of mine. 
Look, I don't see anyone taking shots at your dogs or what you breed, but to disparage drive in a working breed is beyond me. Most Czech dogs are very handler sensitive and heavy correction sensitive,( like you describe your dogs), yet are able to turn on drive for working purposes( as the standard says)....yet uninformed or biased people often refer to them as high drive. Most are medium drive. 
I think the breed tent is large enough for all the correct types that meet the standard, but I think opinions formed by biases on either side of spectrum are detrimental to the breed.
Likewise, I think training and training tools, should reflect purpose of use. Thousands of pet people and training people use pinch collars everyday effectively....I find it hard to dismiss this as bad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> I think everyone is entitled to their opinions, though I think some opinions are more informed then others.
> You constantly bring up this rant of high energy or high drive gsd....i don't know about others but this is how I view things. The German Shepherd is a working dog that most of the work it was created for requires it to sometimes be in drive and sometimes not. To have an on and off switch so as to do the work. Any GS that can't turn off the high drive is just as faulty as one that can't turn on high drive. Balance is the key, the same goes for breeders, any breeder that breeds GS that are only high drive are as faulty as a breeder that breeds GS that doesn't have high drive when appropriate. Now my opinion is based on the standard of the breed and what the dog should be capabilitywise, as opposed to any personal likes or bias of mine.
> Look, I don't see anyone taking shots at your dogs or what you breed, but to disparage drive in a working breed is beyond me. Most Czech dogs are very handler sensitive and heavy correction sensitive,( like you describe your dogs), yet are able to turn on drive for working purposes( as the standard says)....yet uninformed or biased people often refer to them as high drive. Most are medium drive.
> I think the breed tent is large enough for all the correct types that meet the standard, but I think opinions formed by biases on either side of spectrum are detrimental to the breed.
> Likewise, I think training and training tools, should reflect purpose of use. Thousands of pet people and training people use pinch collars everyday effectively....I find it hard to dismiss this as bad.


I think it is bad. Listen to what people say who use them. The dog doesn't listen on the martingale, but listens on the prong -- that isn't training, that is management. The dog isn't learning, the dog is avoiding. The training wheels never come off. The dog doesn't improve. But more importantly, the human does not improve. 

What's telling is how strongly people defend the use.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I just read back a little farther and found this quote from Selzer:
> 
> Suggesting it is right for 95% of owners, well, I think wherever you pulled that statistic out of is wrong as well as ridiculous. And, that it is good for 98% of dogs, I flat out disagree. I think that you are suggesting all dogs save the 1-2% of dogs that are strongly dominant/independent and possibly handler aggressive are the only dogs that would not benefit from having the prong collar used on them. I think a majority of soft and biddable dogs that have no need of strong corrections, can actually be negatively impacted by prong collars.
> 
> ...


Basically ... what you out lined is how a "Prong Collar" should be used ... but people do stuff and therein lies the potential problem, it's often not the tool it's the user.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> That was my thought too...That the dog was likely more concerned about @Chip18 than Rocky.
> 
> I definitely don't think it's "crap behavior" either. My dog's territoriality about the car, his edginess, and HA saved my booty one night at a gas station.


Aww well ... and here we go again. Maybe I should just stay home or drive "Rocky" out to the desert and life with him would be much less ... interesting??? 

I merely detailed my observation of what happened. If people are content with there dog going off at random strangers walking by there cars ... fine go for it. But my standards are apparently much higher and I would not stand for that crap. My dog only goes into "high drive" as it were when there is a clear and present danger! And this time I can say accurately ... been there done that. 

And as for it must have been Chip and his dog?? OK go with that ... but that does not explain the SUV units marked as K9 units that "Rocky" and I also frequently walk pass and we never hear a sound??? Is there a K9 inside those vehicles ... I don't know??? But in all the years we have done that ... "Rocky has never alerted???" Perhaps the Ford Edges marked as "K9" units are fake?? Dayton is a small town and K9 Unit stickers are cheap I would imagine??? 

But the other day when we went to go by that particular "Extended cab Ford Pickup" Rocky did alert and I ignored him and he was right! There was a K9 unit in there and as far as I'm concerned ... that dog was unstable! But you know ... the fact of the matter is that "Rocky" just proved right then why so many pro's that rehab "Aggressive Dog's"use Mal's and GSD's in there work ... apparently these guys are pretty good at reading "unstable dog's" ... who knew??? :smile2:


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

selzer said:


> I think it is bad. Listen to what people say who use them. The dog doesn't listen on the martingale, but listens on the prong -- that isn't training, that is management. The dog isn't learning, the dog is avoiding. The training wheels never come off. The dog doesn't improve. But more importantly, the human does not improve.
> 
> What's telling is how strongly people defend the use.


Yes, my big boy is collar smart. Yes, it is management. I know my limits. I know I have no treat that will trump chasing critters. I know I have no positive punishment that will convince my dog to never chase critters. I know that if I get an unexpected surprise, like the time my dog decided that cars on wet pavement were chase worthy, I am not strong enough to keep my dog from ripping the leash right out of my hand without a little discomfort. I know that sometimes that spot on the ground must not only be sniffed but studied and licked and drooled over...and I usually push his head aside with my leg to get him to move on. If he is stubborn, a bit of discomfort helps convince him to leave the spot. I don't like it but occasionally he gets engrossed. So it is my choice since I have no toy or treat more interesting than that smell. I chose not to do a harsh correction for it since a moment later the scent is forgotten and we are on with our walk. 

In a perfect world my dogs would walk by my side and always come when called. It is not a perfect world.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My rescue, Ranger, had been tied to an 8 foot chain for the first 3 years of his life. He got very used to pulling against a flat collar. I soon convinced him this was a Bad Idea by using a prong. After a month or so, we were able to go back to a flat collar.

Sometimes, however, he'd start to forget his manners, and begin to pull again. I'd put the prong back on, and I instantly had the best behaved dog you could ever want! He walked on a totally slack leash, and corrections were not needed at all. After a day or two of using the prong, we'd go back to the flat collar again, and everything was fine.

So, Selzer, this disproves your theory about the prong desensitizing the dog to other methods of correction. And that's not to say some dogs, like Car2ner's, might always need to be walked with a prong. 

Every dog is different. I can only offer my experience with this one dog. My other dogs haven't needed a prong, as I've had them from a young age.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Prong collars done right can be great.
Slip leads done right can be great.
Flat collars done right can be great.
Martingales done right can be great. 

All done wrong can be bad. 
Whatever works for the handler and dog. 

But I will say this, I'd rather be pinched than choked as a correction.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

selzer said:


> I think it is bad. Listen to what people say who use them. The dog doesn't listen on the martingale, but listens on the prong -- that isn't training, that is management. The dog isn't learning, the dog is avoiding. The training wheels never come off. The dog doesn't improve. But more importantly, the human does not improve.
> 
> What's telling is how strongly people defend the use.


You're focusing on those that use it as a crutch and not those who use it as tool to work past a problem. I know some who use them as a permanent solution to pulling, one has medical issues so I won't say, but the others should be moving away from them at some point. 

Anyone working toward a competitive venue will have to at some point lose the prong and any leash/collar for that matter. Out in public the vast majority of dogs I see are in harnesses of some type pulling away like a sled dog with the owner leaning back at a 45degree angle to counter this and barely able to manage. It's the same lack of training of those who use prongs as a crutch. I know which of the two I'd be least concerned about encountering while out with my dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

One trainer's take on the Prong Collar: Why I Use Prong Collars on Every Dog


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aww well ... and here we go again. Maybe I should just stay home or drive "Rocky" out to the desert and life with him would be much less ... interesting???
> 
> I merely detailed my observation of what happened. If people are content with there dog going off at random strangers walking by there cars ... fine go for it. But my standards are apparently much higher and I would not stand for that crap. My dog only goes into "high drive" as it were when there is a clear and present danger! And this time I can say accurately ... been there done that.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you don't like gsds


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aww well ... and here we go again. Maybe I should just stay home or drive "Rocky" out to the desert and life with him would be much less ... interesting???
> 
> I merely detailed my observation of what happened. If people are content with there dog going off at random strangers walking by there cars ... fine go for it. But my standards are apparently much higher and I would not stand for that crap. My dog only goes into "high drive" as it were when there is a clear and present danger! And this time I can say accurately ... been there done that.
> 
> ...


Here we go again? I wasn't aware we went around a first time? I don't think you and Rocky should go hide in the desert. My comment was about your assumption that the dog in the cab was dog reactive



Chip18 said:


> But Rocky knew something was up and he tried to tell me ... I just misread him??? And that particular K9 went off, while we tried to pass behind the vehical. And *he sounded just like any other poorly trained, dog reactive dog in a vehicle*, I've heard in the grocery store parking lot. So yes ... color me not impressed.


How do you know that the dog was reacting to Rocky and not you? How were you able to make that assessment? 



> I merely detailed my observation of what happened. If people are content with there dog going off at random strangers walking by there cars ... fine go for it. But my standards are apparently much higher and I would not stand for that crap.


Just remember - one person's "crap" behavior is another person's desired behavior. I expect my dog to alert to anyone coming near my car or home. It was a big part of WHY I got a GSD in the first place. They are protection/guardian breeds. 

It's kinda rude to call it crap behavior and assume that the reason is because the owner isn't capable of training it out of the dog.



> There was a K9 unit in there and as far as I'm concerned ... that dog was unstable! But you know ... the fact of the matter is that "Rocky" just proved right then why so many pro's that rehab "Aggressive Dog's"use Mal's and GSD's in there work ... apparently these guys are pretty good at reading "unstable dog's" ... who knew???


What makes you believe this dog was "unstable"? Because it barked at you? There is nothing about a german shepherd guarding a car that leads me to question the dog's mental stability. Seems fairly par for the course. Just means the owner probable either wanted the behavior or didn't care enough about it to train it out. So I don't understand where you are coming from with saying the dog is unstable. What hands on experience do you have with working line dogs that makes you an expert at assessing them in a 30 second encounter? 

Just remember - not everyone wants a dog that behaves like your Rocky. He's a fit for you and that is AWESOME. But some of us prefer or even need a more dynamic dog. A dog that will act and not stop to look to "daddy" for guidance. 

And no need for conspiracy theories.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Most of us here love German Shepherds and understand their behaviors and can live with the faults. We do our best to enhance the good qualities in our dogs and to extinguish or squelch those we don't like. When someone repeatedly criticizes and appears to hate GSDs, I wonder why they are here. I have a lot of respect for K9s and their trainers and handlers. Derogatory comments about them only make the poster look foolish and ignorant.

I use a training collar a lot of the time because I messed up by allowing my older rescue to teach my young dog some bad habits. I'm not going to blame family members, but in my family, people do what they want and my dog learned tight leash walking from them. It's not blame, it's what it is. I couldn't be the only handler all the time, so I take the good with the bad. What I blame are the class trainers I have taken from who never had off leash or loose leash as an end goal. It was never mentioned! I only learned the benefits when I started exploring dog sports and advanced training, and getting to know some of you better. My current trainer has a goal of off leash for every dog. Until then, I will use training collars when I need them.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Careful, though.

Do most of us really want a dog that will bite someone without being commanded to do so? 

A police K9 is legally protected, and is trained to bite someone who is fleeing a scene, for example. A K9 is vastly different than our pets. Police K9s often are trained without a lot of control layered in. Many do not have an out. 

A pet dog, and all of our dogs are considered pets under the law, whether they are FMBB IPO champions or not, are not protected if they bite someone who was not actively provoking the dog, attacking the owner, or trespassing (and even then, you may not be in the clear, dog law is pretty much not on the side of the dog). Dogs may be considered use of lethal force, you certainly don't want the dog making independent decisions on who is a threat or not. They are dogs, and think like dogs. It is up to us to protect them. 

A good default behavior is for the dog to heel or get between your legs and bark when they sense a threat. If someone still comes after you, after both you and the dog have warned them off clearly, then the burden is on the attacker, because they are taking a "known risk".

I don't think we should be encouraging our pet dogs to bark in cars in parking lots at everyone walking by, or to bark at any movement at IPO training. That annoys me and I do wish people wouldn't allow it. It wears the dog out and is just plain loud. If I need my dogs to bark, they will happily do so, but otherwise, I prefer quiet watching.

Police K9s are in a very different category than our companion dogs.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Careful, though.
> 
> Do most of us really want a dog that will bite someone without being commanded to do so?
> 
> ...


The issue is, to classify a dog as unstable for barking at someone as being unstable, is a pompous statement.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> You are talking with an amplifier. That is like shouting. And if the dog seems less responsive to the martingale, because you are using a prong collar some of the time, that is exactly what I am talking about. Of course you don't need to do much more than put the collar on the dog, the dog knows that it is there, they get collar-smart. So when you don't have that collar on him, he doesn't have to be as sharp, because you are teaching him that you don't mean business unless he has his big-boy collar on.
> 
> Since I show in AKC, I can't possibly have a dog who is only going to respond well to a prong collar. I won't use them at all, because I don't want my dogs to ignore the martingale.


I show in a venue that doesn't allow prong collars anywhere on the grounds (I am not sure what AKC's policy is on a prong on a dog who isn't competing) We are currently preparing for the offleash level and doing run throughs. He can and does do great run through's offleash even with nasty dogs snarking at him through ring gates. You said people shouldn't depend on prongs because one day it will break and your dog will be loose. My dog is training on and off the leash all the time. I drop his leash a lot too. 

He just got his second title with an award of excellence for high scores and he got that on a martingale collar, so what I am doing is not teaching him to ignore the martingale or not work on it.

Your statement that I don't mean business unless he has his big boy collar on is incorrect. That's now how I use training tools. He is conditioned to all of them to avoid being collar wise. He is no less sharp when I am working him with only a martingale. I know which one I need under what circumstances, I condition to avoid problems with him getting gear smart, and I use what works to get a consistent dog in all environment. I rarely need or use the prong, but when I do it's a great tool for us. 

I don't mean any of this is an argumentative way, I just think you've gotten the wrong idea about how I train my dog or how I use a prong collar, and I'm not totally sure how to explain it better. 

If you can do everything I do with my dog with no prong I'd say more power to ya. I'd like to learn from you even. But I have no reason to do things differently because it's working well for us, the dog has no fallout from it, and I watch carefully. I care very much about his wellbeing, his attitude, his enthusiasm for training and work.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Oh ok...I did say something about the dog being a bit of a bonehead in a martingale, I think that's maybe where Selzer got the idea that I have to use the prong to control him and he's a bonehead anytime the martingale is on.

That's not how it happened. What happened is this: he was always very light on the collar, did very well, until maybe two incidents between 9mo and 1 yr old when we encountered some exciting things, like squirrels darting in front of us and the neighbor's dog who he loves and wants her to have his puppies and everything else, where he suddenly realized it was tolerable to lean hard on the collar and act like a tool. This was before he'd ever had a prong on in his life, and basically why I decided it was time. 

Our road being what it is, the circumstances just aren't great for ideal training methods by other means. So we did parts of the road with a prong for awhile. 

The last time I passed my neighbor and her dog I happened to have my dog on a harness, (because honestly I didn't feel well that day and wanted to use him for balance getting up the hill) not even a collar at all, and had no toys or nothing to reward or distract him with, her dog ran up to us offleash inviting him to play, then darted away, and on a voice command only he acted like a gentleman, did not take me skiing to chase his friend, and then the other person caught her dog, we passed on leashes, all dogs behaved, everything fine. 

So hopefully that clears that up. It isn't that currently he only is light and well behaved on a prong or a bonehead on the martingale. He is conditioned to all tools, I use what I need for whatever circumstance so basically it isn't a thought in his head that he can act like a testosterone filled goon...ever...and that was my goal.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes, of course a dog barking in the car can't be deemed unstable on virtue of that one behavior alone. But situations happen all the time where a dog gets all amped up barking behind a door or in the car, and then somehow the dog gets out, charges up to someone, and there is unwanted contact.

A friend was just bitten pretty badly by a dog in this situation. She was just waiting for her sister in her driveway... and the dog got out. 

There are many reasons for not allowing a dog to amp himself up barking in a vehicle. The situation I just described above is part of the reason Police K9s are allowed to bark, they are building up drive for doing their job. You don't want a pet dog to build up that kind of drive and then release it on the nearest passerby.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> Yes, of course a dog barking in the car can't be deemed unstable on virtue of that one behavior alone. But situations happen all the time where a dog gets all amped up barking behind a door or in the car, and then somehow the dog gets out, charges up to someone, and there is unwanted contact.
> 
> A friend was just bitten pretty badly by a dog in this situation. She was just waiting for her sister in her driveway... and the dog got out.
> 
> There are many reasons for not allowing a dog to amp himself up barking in a vehicle. The situation I just described above is part of the reason Police K9s are allowed to bark, they are building up drive for doing their job. You don't want a pet dog to build up that kind of drive and then release it on the nearest passerby.


I have taught my dogs to be quiet in the car when I am present. I can't do much when I'm not there. If I ever needed them to bark. I have taught a command word for barking when I want them to. I haven't had to use it yet, but we practice at home so they don't forget it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> Sounds like you don't like gsds


Oh that old bit again??? I merely outline my story with my dog and based on my experiance with my one dog ... no "I" don't recommend them to anyone I know??? 

Still despite me GSD's are number two on the most popular dogs in America list??? So I just try and help those who find themselves in over there head.

And yep way way way back in the day ... I resented "Rocky!" Getting out of Bully world I felt was the worst mistake I'd made in my life?? Letting go of that "anger" was a physical effort ... no dog attacks my dog without getting past me! But what if the attacking dog is one of your own??? 

So yesss ... I resented him but "Marilyn" said "let it go or pass him on!" I'm not one to quit either and no dog gets the best of me. So contemplating for hours ... with a deep sigh ... I let it go. And we proceed to work on his newly discovered ... H/A issues?? That problem was the next luckiest day in my life ... becasue for me ... this crap will not stand! So we worked on it by finding people to ignore. We walked many many miles together in silence and he changed but I did not notice or care. He was different now but I did not see it?? Until ... we got attacked and I slipped on the ice while defending him against two dogs. I deterred the one but not the other. And Rocky had remained behind me the whole time in "Stay" pretty much bored with the whole ordeal. Dad and his games ... whatever??

But when I went down on the ice, he must have thought "Oh ... I've not seen this before??" And he stepped over me unbid to deter the remaining dog! I was stunned and that last dog flat disappeared! Once he heard that roar and nothing but flashing fangs ... I was stunned??? I'd not seen or had any reason to expect a performance like that??? From that point on we were good.

But rest assured "Wobblers" combined with his attitude had he been in another multi dog pet home with the wrong dog?? Most owners would have put him down many, many years ago. 

So you know sorry I did not start with a 8 week puppy. I started with a 7 month old who showed no issues for 7 months (that I saw??) and then one day out of the blue ... it was "Game On!"

But "we" got it done so I don't need to be schooled on how great GSD's can be as I already know. "I" however still won't recommend them to anyone I know. Others are of course free to do as they see fit ... they won't get flack from me ... just saying. :smile2:


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

oh by the way, we don't always use a prong either. Sometimes if things are quiet we clip the leashes to the back of the harnesses they use if they ride in the back seat. That way the can bee-bop around and even tug a little bit and be more comfortable. A call of "come" usually gets their attention if they stop for a prolonged sniff. I use whichever tool works best for the circumstance. In our yard, it is all voice command and lures and praise. They go naked in the yard.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Here we go again? I wasn't aware we went around a first time? I don't think you and Rocky should go hide in the desert. My comment was about your assumption that the dog in the cab was dog reactive
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aww well ... clearly people want and expect different things in dogs. I want my dogs to be "transparent" you don't know they are there unless you get in there face! And yes ... I make snap judgements and that is how I keep my dogs safe from other people's untrained beast! 

Rocky got nipped once under a "Perfect Storm" situation becasue I messed up. But aside from that "No dog" has ever touched one of my dogs with intent to do harm.

My dogs don't act like "tools" in cars. If that is good for you ... no problem, but I won't have it. So by my standards that K9 was a tool.

When I walk my dog ... I want to be left alone! And yes "Rocky" does what "Daddy has taught him to do" and he's good with that! As long as people or there dog's don't get in our faces ... they don't need to be concerned about his other side!

I saw that clearly in our last loose dog encounter ... that was the first time I felt the need to repeat "STAY" but you know ... he did what "Daddy" said ... and it worked out fine. And rest assured that owners dog won't screw with us again. 

When I walk my dogs I "expect" to be left alone. We are like smoke if you don't see us ... you don't know we are there. So yes "I" resent being barked at by a dog I did not know was there ... when my dog did! I was surprised "Rocky" was not ... Rocky made no reply in response. The dog was not in face so he did not care but he most likely knew that "Daddy" would be perturbed?? And yes he was right and I was wrong. I should have acknowledged him and turned around. Going forward ... I'll pay more attention to his alrets, live and learn.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Yes, of course a dog barking in the car can't be deemed unstable on virtue of that one behavior alone.


Oh by and large ... I've never laid claim to the title of being "reasonable." 

I can say that I have passed other K9 units, Suv's ... marked as such. And if they have a dog in them ... I cannot say?? That is what I've come to "expect." This particular extended cab marked as "K9" the dog was different ... so I took note. 

Taking note of exceptions in my environment is what I do. Yesterday as it happened at the same sub station. That unit was pulling in. He saw me walking Rocky and waved, I waved back. He kept his distance and I kept mine. No barking was heard ... was his dog in there ... I don't know???

His dog if it was in there was transparent ... that's what I've come to expect. Pretty much that simple.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

No way -- "Police K9s often are trained without a lot of control layered in. Many do not have an out. "

the dog would never qualify . 

that dog would be a huge liability to the city or municipality that owned the dog - coffers emptied by lawsuits for wrongful bites or excessive use of force.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> Careful, though.
> 
> Do most of us really want a dog that will bite someone without being commanded to do so?
> 
> ...


Smh, please refrain from giving opinions on K9 deployment or training because you have been given misinformed information. 
All LE dogs that are trained to bite are also trained to out! Period. Many police officers prefer to take their dogs off of a bite because of safety reasons, or sometimes the fight has amped up the dog to point it is necessary to take the dog off....but all of them were trained to out or they wouldn't pass their certification to be used in the first place. 
As for barking in the car, I view my car just like I do my house, if I am in my house or car with my dog I can not only control them but also let you in either with me. When I am not home in either, then I expect them to be deterrent if necessary. I live in the northeast, there is a greater chance of car theft, then dogs getting out of cars and charging people. Everyday many cars are stolen in NE America,( and I suspect any normal size city, small or large), how often do dogs get out of cars charging? ....twice a year....maybe?
No, I have no problem with my dog barking at someone close to my car when I'm not around.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Oh that old bit again??? I merely outline my story with my dog and based on my experiance with my one dog ... no "I" don't recommend them to anyone I know???
> 
> Still despite me GSD's are number two on the most popular dogs in America list??? So I just try and help those who find themselves in over there head.
> 
> ...



Chip, I don't understand. You base your opinion on your one GSD who has a health issue and you trained him to be the perfect dog. You got him at seven months and when he hit the teen years he matured and you found yourself with a GSD. The fact that he was trainable with a very simple method says a lot about your dog. Why would that make you think others couldn't have trained your dog or another GSD? Why would people put down a dog that can be easily trained to behave? Why would you not recommend a GSD when your only experience is with an easy one?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'll leave it at this. I'm not going to discuss something in which I haven't trained a dog, that is police K9 work. It clearly raises hackles, and that is not my intention. For pet owners, which includes sport trainers- control is absolutely crucial. 

Contractor attacked by Alaska State Troopers dog files lawsuit


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> I'll leave it at this. I'm not going to discuss something in which I haven't trained a dog, that is police K9 work. It clearly raises hackles, and that is not my intention. For pet owners, which includes sport trainers- control is absolutely crucial.
> 
> Contractor attacked by Alaska State Troopers dog files lawsuit


I agree, Muskeg...that any type of training that encourages aggression/bitework requires control.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> I agree, Muskeg...that any type of training that encourages aggression/bitework requires control.


I do agree. 

I read that article about the Alaskan State Trooper's K-9. I didn't see any reference to the dog not being trained to out. I will add to what Cliff has said, there are guidelines for training and certifying Police K-9s. There are National organizations that have detailed certification requirements. Organizations like the North American Police Work Dog Association - NAPWDA or the United States Police Canine Association - USPCA. Both organizations have national guidelines for certifying patrol and detection dogs. IME, all Patrol dogs must demonstrate 2 "outs" to pass a certification. The handler is not allowed to touch the dog while giving the out command and this misdone off lead. 

In the real world and on a "real bite" I have verbally outed Boomer a number of times and I have also lifted him off bites. What I do on a live bite is dependent on several things like the situation, the environment and tactics. For a patrol dog there is nothing wrong with lifting a dog off a real bite, calling the dog off or any other technique that gets the dog off in a reasonable amount of time. The issue becomes the time it takes to remove the dog once the suspect is compliant and it is tactically safe to do so. Leaving the dog on for any longer than reasonable or necessary may be viewed as excessive force. On the street the dog doesn't have to verbally out, but the handler must be able to remove his dog quickly and efficiently when needed to do so. 

I will touch on one other thing that came up in this thread; dogs barking in cars. People need to realize a few things about a dog's temperament, especially when they are judging other dogs or giving advice on dog forums that novices may read. Very simply, many dogs bark in cars at people and other dogs. It is what dogs do. It is territorial aggression and guarding behavior and the car is their territory and they will guard it. To say a dog is a "tool" for barking in a car really shows little understanding of canine behavior. A dog is not a "tool" for barking in a car, it is simply doing it's job. Some Police K-9's will bark at people that approach the car and that is a very good thing. A "transparent' dog, not that I even know what that really means is not a dog that I want to have. I do not want "transparent" pets or working dogs. I encourage my patrol dogs to bark at anyone approaching my car. If I am outside the car and nearby my dogs are generally quiet. If they are in the car alone, they will bark in the car. They will also bite anyone that tries to open my car door. I have citizen ride alongs with me quite frequently and when I open the car door and let some one in, my dogs are fine and quiet. 

I would be more concerned about a dog that never barked in a car, that is not GSD behavior and temperament, IMHO. 

It is really unusual to compare one's pet dog's behavior to that of a Patrol trained K-9. It is also rather odd to call a patrol dog that barks while in the car a "tool"? The other comparison that shows some naivete is the dog "alerting" to the patrol car like the dogs "alerting in Vietnam did." To be clear, dogs have hearing that is many times greater than ours. Their sense of smell is thousands of times better than ours. Don't you think your dog could smell an empty K-9 car from across the parking lot? Don't you think a K-9 car smells different than a regular car? Is it really that astonishing that your dog perked up or "alerted" near a car that houses a dog all day? Is that so unique or so incredible? Again, very simply it is what all dogs do. Nothing remarkable or legendary about it, dogs have super senses and you happened to catch your dog using his "spidey senses." That "tool" of a working K-9 does that 8 hours a day and finds people and drugs. His handler just realizes it is normal behavior and knows how to read it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> As for barking in the car, I view my car just like I do my house, if I am in my house or car with my dog I can not only control them but also let you in either with me. When I am not home in either, then I expect them to be deterrent if necessary. I live in the northeast, there is a greater chance of car theft, then dogs getting out of cars and charging people. Everyday many cars are stolen in NE America,( and I suspect any normal size city, small or large), how often do dogs get out of cars charging? ....twice a year....maybe?
> No, I have no problem with my dog barking at someone close to my car when I'm not around.





Slamdunc said:


> I will touch on one other thing that came up in this thread; dogs barking in cars. People need to realize a few things about a dog's temperament, especially when they are judging other dogs or giving advice on dog forums that novices may read. Very simply, many dogs bark in cars at people and other dogs. It is what dogs do. It is territorial aggression and guarding behavior and the car is their territory and they will guard it. To say a dog is a "tool" for barking in a car really shows little understanding of canine behavior. A dog is not a "tool" for barking in a car, it is simply doing it's job. Some Police K-9's will bark at people that approach the car and that is a very good thing. A "transparent' dog, not that I even know what that really means is not a dog that I want to have. I do not want "transparent" pets or working dogs. I encourage my patrol dogs to bark at anyone approaching my car. If I am outside the car and nearby my dogs are generally quiet. If they are in the car alone, they will bark in the car. They will also bite anyone that tries to open my car door. I have citizen ride alongs with me quite frequently and when I open the car door and let some one in, my dogs are fine and quiet.


I agree with Cliff and Slam 100% on this. 

I'm a single lady living in a major metro area with a fairly high violent and property crime rate. I also happen to be in one of the not so nice areas of said city. I have been the victim of crimes. 

This is a big part of why I chose a GSD in the first place. Protectiveness and territoriality. I wanted and needed a guard dog, otherwise I would have gotten a friendly goofy breed like another bully type or something. I fully expect my GSD to bark and react to people approaching the house and car. Where I am from the chances are no one is coming near either for any good reasons. If they are just a passer-by. Then they get barked at. Oh well. I do my best to make sure I am parked in an out of the way area when I have the dog, and I make sure he is secured... but overall I want people to know I have a large, loud dog, with big white teeth. 

I have encouraged my dog's natural guarding behavior - praising for his alert barks, etc. He is also obedient enough to stop when I tell him too. He's not a tool. He is not unstable. I am not an incompetent dog owner/trainer. He is doing exactly what I expected of a GSD. 

Quite frankly... I would have been very very disappointed if he did NOT bark at people who approach the car and house.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDs are excellent deterrents, but yes, that usually includes barking when the house or car is approached. And I don't know any adult GSDs that do not. Of course, one should not have trouble going through the drive through with your dogs. And the best thing you can do to have the best GSD deterrent is to train the dog (obedience). A well-trained dog is so much more intimidating than a nutcase-barking, lunging dog. 

Truthfully, most of us do not need a protection dog. Most of us just need a deterrent and most GSDs can fit that job discription with some basic obedience training.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think anybody who gets a dog wants the dog to bark if someone comes near their property or car. When they dog decide to get a German shepherd -it sure is an upgrade wanting a dog to do as such.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Just for the record, I think I was the only one who called a dog a "tool", and that was MY dog, not anyone else's, and referring to him having some unfortunate teenage incidents where he had grown an adult body but his brain hadn't caught up yet. That was the prong collar conversation, having nothing to do with police k9s.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Just for the record, I think I was the only one who called a dog a "tool", and that was MY dog, not anyone else's, and referring to him having some unfortunate teenage incidents where he had grown an adult body but his brain hadn't caught up yet. That was the prong collar conversation, having nothing to do with police k9s.


You were not the one that referred to the K-9 as a "tool" or acted like a "tool."


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Just for the record, I think I was the only one who called a dog a "tool", and that was MY dog, not anyone else's, and referring to him having some unfortunate teenage incidents where he had grown an adult body but his brain hadn't caught up yet. That was the prong collar conversation, having nothing to do with police k9s.


Chip was talking about the police K9. Basically because it barked and he personally prefers his dogs not to bark, it isn't trained correctly and is a tool. The fact that owners may prefer different things from a dog, such as wanting it to bark at strangers approaching the vehicle is irrelevant to him.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Just remember that it is very easy to misunderstand each other using only text. Even if we carefully word our posts, someone is bound to come up with ideas we didn't intend. It happens. And we all get passionate about how we treat and respect our dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What's a "tool"?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> What's a "tool"?


a tool
an offensive comment, mainly aimed towards the male of the species, when one is being particularly nasty, stupid, or facetious.

Urban Dictionary: a tool


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc said:


> You were not the one that referred to the K-9 as a "tool" or acted like a "tool."


Maybe I missed something. I saw the other post about k9s...but I thought I was the only one who used that word.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> a tool
> an offensive comment, mainly aimed towards the male of the species, when one is being particularly nasty, stupid, or facetious.
> 
> Urban Dictionary: a tool


For the record, I officially retract calling my dog a tool. I love him to death and I would never call him nasty or stupid, he is definitely neither.

He has had some dopey adolescent moments.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

```

```



Thecowboysgirl said:


> For the record, I officially retract calling my dog a tool. I love him to death and I would never call him nasty or stupid, he is definitely neither.
> 
> He has had some dopey adolescent moments.


They all do! But that's why we love them


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

car2ner said:


> Just remember that it is very easy to misunderstand each other using only text. Even if we carefully word our posts, someone is bound to come up with ideas we didn't intend. It happens. And we all get passionate about how we treat and respect our dogs.


We would like to see all members respecting GSDs on a dedicated German Shepherd site. I have a lot of tolerance here but not for anyone who doesn't like the breed or respect K9s. That is offensive to everyone. When something is repeated many times to be read by dozens of people, it's not just misinterpretation but intentionally badgering people. I spent over a year giving the benefit of the doubt to people.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Maybe I missed something. I saw the other post about k9s...but I thought I was the only one who used that word.


OK I finally understand what all was said, never mind me and trying to figure out who called who a tool. 

Sorry I ever said that word!!

My dogs both bark if someone approaches my truck when I'm in it. Neither does if they are alone in the truck. I don't know why...seems like no shepherd of mine has ever been territorial or protective of a vehicle or dwelling that is unoccupied. That's fine with me. 

I want to be alerted if someone approaches my truck. Neither will bark if someone walks by, it has to be a person showing interest in the truck or me, and that's perfect for me. What Voodoolamb said about why she got a GSD is pretty right on for me.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

It's funny. I trained my dog very hard to be totally quiet in the car. I HATE dogs going off in cars when I am at training. HATE it!!!! It seems like a useless waste of energy to go off on me when I am simply walking past a car. If I go in to someone's car, then maybe ok. 

But as a SAR person. I actually have had to have people go into my car for things. I have needed people to get m dog for me. We train for a dog to be quiet in the car to non "threatening" people. Dogs should be able to tell the difference. So yeah. I get super annoyed at the dog that loses its mind because I dare walk behind their car. It's indiscriminatory. I don't like that. 

That said, I expect it when walking near a LE K9 car. Those dogs have a different purpose in the training. I have done ride alongs with LE K9 before. And as Slam said, the dog had zero issue with me getting in the car with his handler. And I will say, I was freaked when she told me how to let him out if she got in trouble during a stop. 10 years later I still remember her instruction and what to say over the radio to let other LE know she was in trouble. 

I have the utmost respect for our men and women in uniform.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> It's funny. I trained my dog very hard to be totally quiet in the car. I HATE dogs going off in cars when I am at training. HATE it!!!! It seems like a useless waste of energy to go off on me when I am simply walking past a car. If I go in to someone's car, then maybe ok.
> 
> But as a SAR person. I actually have had to have people go into my car for things. I have needed people to get m dog for me. We train for a dog to be quiet in the car to non "threatening" people. Dogs should be able to tell the difference. So yeah. I get super annoyed at the dog that loses its mind because I dare walk behind their car. It's indiscriminatory. I don't like that.
> 
> ...


I think there is much to be said for different individual needs and expectations. I could see how having a dog barking at passer bys when you work SAR would be a bad thing.

For me though, give me the dogs that lose their minds :grin2:

Part of the problem is that criminals are kinda good at what they do. A guy who is bent on car jacking you isn't going to sneak around looking all sketchy and stuff. They will walk up to you cool, calm and confident. Like any normal person, make you feel at ease and then attack. I mean look at Ted Bundy's arm in a sling tactic. Lots of burglars knock on doors first. How do we expect a dog to be discerning and figure out who is up to no good when these scum are so good at blending in that WE can't even tell who the bad guys are?

Yesterday evening I stopped to top off my gas tank. I had the dog in the car. While I was swiping my card the dog started barking his fool head off. I looked up, some guy who was approaching me had stopped dead in his tracks. The dog made it clear that this guy needed to BACK OFF. I watched while this random guy approached another lady at the gas station and started talking to her. She looked a little uncomfortable so I called out to ask if she was OK or if she needed me to call someone. The rando looked at me and then promptly left the gas station. Probably some druggie looking for easy $$$ for his next fix, or maybe he was a serial killer rapist. Either way I would rather my dog bark at an innocent walker by than to get cornered at the pump by a creeper - because that happens waaaay too often. But a few good scary barks from the pointy eared devil definitely makes them think twice. I don't think a quite stare would have nearly the same effect.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

One of my dogs would go off if someone got within touching distance of the car. Outside the car, she was fine - strangers could pet her and give her treats, under my supervision. Once she was back in the car, though, if they leaned in to give her a pat, she'd bare her teeth and growl. Never had any worries about my car being stolen with her in the back seat!

I often took her with me when i was doing my visiting nursing rounds for that reason. One day, I had to call an ambulance for a patient. When I told the patient's son I needed to move my car so the ambulance could get in the driveway, he said, "I'll do it for you. Just give me the keys."

I handed them over, totally forgetting my watch dog was on duty. When I remembered, I went sprinting down the hall yelling "WAIT!!"

Somehow Tasha knew. He was already in the car by the time I got there, and she never even barked at him.
One of the best **** dogs I've ever had. That sort of discrimination is priceless!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> I think there is much to be said for different individual needs and expectations. I could see how having a dog barking at passer bys when you work SAR would be a bad thing.
> 
> For me though, give me the dogs that lose their minds :grin2:
> 
> ...


#1, Voodoo, you're awesome for watching out for this other lady too.

#2, sometimes a stare will do it. My girl stopped a probable mugging with death daggers and nothing else. It was one of those movie moments lol. I was at a drive up ATM but my window was broken so I opened the door and was standing at the ATM. My girl in the vehicle. Guy pulls up behind me, starts talking to me and walking up to me. Halfway in, he stops in his tracks and gets uncomfortable and starts backing up. I look over my shoulder and she has stuck her head out the door and was staring at him with a quite unmistakable look on her face. One more step, buddy. He knew what it meant, and made himself scarce. I'm not always that bright and I should have reacted and done or said something when he started to walk up to me, I don't think ANY man approaches a woman while she is actively using an ATM with anything but bad intentions. I failed at helping myself but the dog totally did her job.

I'm not sure all dogs have the mojo to shut a guy down just by looking at him, but she sure does.

To this day I still try to leave the door of my cab open when I am pumping gas or doing anything around my vehicle. My dogs won't get out without permission but I want to be able to call them out if needed. I hate those new TVs on the gas pumps, I want to pay attention to my surroundings and it's hard with a TV blasting in your face.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My big boy sometimes barks in a car, not a huge bark but a "there is something to be aware of bark". My inexperienced she-pup is still learning. My biggest concern with the barking in the car is if for some reason I have to get pulled over by the police. It doesn't even have to be for poor driving. It could be a tail light out (it has happened). I want my dogs to be calm on command as the office approaches the car. It would be annoying for everyone if the dogs were "going off" in my ear making it difficult for any conversation to go on.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is a difference between a dog in a car inside a crate and a dog inside a car uncrated ( as most pet dogs are). 
I crate my dogs when going on trips or to training. I teach them to be quiet in crate when I am driving and while they are waiting to train. Why? Partially for me and partially because they have nothing to deter in the crate.
Now when reading in town or short distances, I let my dog ride as a pet,so that the discernment part of the breed can be developed. In these instances, the dog learns if I am not in the car/truck they are not to trust anybody they don't know,( and contrary to what some experts will espouse this breed has ability to discern who is friend or relative of owner and who is stranger...at least to the dog) and so to show deterrence to someone who approaches vehicle that is unknown. I can let you into my vehicle without my dogs lunging or barking at you, but if not present they aren't interested in your explanation that they are supposed to be friendly pet so let them in. 
I don't see the problem, actually I think this is the brilliance of the breed....and ALL my dogs over 40 plus years would do this.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I've enjoyed reading reading everyone's thoughts. I'm sure I will echo alot of posts. I agrees with gsdsar as I am a SAR K9 handler as well. My dogs are good about people milling around the car during training (although my boy will vocalize his discontent when it's my girls turn to run trail or do cadaver work). I've found the discernment that cliffson1 is taking about to be very true. I've had GSD's since the early 90's and they all have it.. It is encouraged to develop and my girls has just really kicked in just shy of 3. At 6mos she loved everyone, at about 13mos she was aware of her heritage and began to become wary of strangers. Not scared, but not fully aware of who she should bark at at appropriate times. She began 5o bark in the car at mission callouts if people got to close - and she has a deep deep bark. It was frustrating because I knew she would grow out of it and the discernment would kick in sooner or later. If I was nearby she was corrected... Anyhow, fast forward to a large search last month and she barked in the morning, but by afternoon, the wisdom seemed to kick in. She also did not like people petting her until she had thoroughly vetted them. This search has required our assistance over this month and she has been the regal, well discerned dog I knew she would be. No barking, let LE (most of whom were very cautious and nervous around her at first despite her ignoring them completely) pet her and even enjoy it. Exposure is key in helping to develop the dogs discernment skills, but I can tell you story after story of Shepherds I've had that made accurate judgment calls while I played ice hockey late at night, rode trail deep in the river beds (lots of vagrants and gang members hung out there), etc...


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> It's funny. I trained my dog very hard to be totally quiet in the car. I HATE dogs going off in cars when I am at training. HATE it!!!! It seems like a useless waste of energy to go off on me when I am simply walking past a car. If I go in to someone's car, then maybe ok.
> 
> But as a SAR person. I actually have had to have people go into my car for things. I have needed people to get m dog for me. We train for a dog to be quiet in the car to non "threatening" people. Dogs should be able to tell the difference. So yeah. I get super annoyed at the dog that loses its mind because I dare walk behind their car. It's indiscriminatory. I don't like that.
> 
> ...


I'm no fan of dogs blowing up at the casual passer by either, it does seem like a waste of energy. I have one who does this. The other 3 don't get worked up unless something is off about a person and they're close to the vehicle. Someone minding their business getting into the next vehicle won't even know they're there, anyone looking at our vehicle or trying to see what kind of dog is sitting inside will get a response. All are perfectly happy with drive thru people, there might be something in it for them.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This is almost a different thread, but my dogs act different at "dog" locations and "dog" events than they do in the "real" world.

Some examples:

-They know dogs are allowed in Petco. They expect to see dogs in Petco, and they hardly acknowledge them. But both of my dogs, a SD and a SDiT are inclined to get kind of haughty toward another dog who appears in a place where dogs aren't allowed. Like the mall. They know there aren't other dogs there. 

Now one variable I realize is that people at dog events probably act different than people in regular life, they are more dog savvy, less likely to do dumb stuff to GSDs...?

I'd love to know why people think this is. I suppose it's more a dog thing than a people thing. My female was always such a tattle tale, had to let out one little wuff when she saw a dog where a dog didn't belong. I swear in her head she's like "Go away, stupid, don't know know DOGS aren't allowed in here, only me because I'm special". Not a reactive or shepherdly bark, just her little "I see you, stupid" bark. Took some work to get her to stop doing that.

Maybe more of the shepherd brain thing of "this doesn't belong here"??


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> This is almost a different thread, but my dogs act different at "dog" locations and "dog" events than they do in the "real" world.


This season's DVG magazine had a good article about Commands, Cues and Context. It mentioned sniffer dogs, who worked great indoors but loose their work ethic outdoors. When you consider that they work mostly indoors, especially up north during winter when weather is too harsh to work outdoors, it makes sense. Outdoors is for casual walks and going pee. Indoors is for work. 

He then mentioned that dual purpose dogs, sniffing and apprehension, work well both indoors and out since they have learned that outside still means working.


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