# help with a breeder



## brianfiremedic (Mar 23, 2009)

so i live in british columbia, canada(just north of washington state)
I;m looking for a breeder of long coat old style(oversized, or king or whatver they are referred to as) gsd. I currently own a doberman that i use for sar work and am interested in doing the same.
many searches have brought up this breeder, is it reputable? http://www.longcoatgermanshepherds.com/
also i would like to find something closer to me or in canada, but am in love with the look of these dogs.
in terms of size, i know there are people against large gsds but i read a lot of conflicting things, i beleive i want around 120 lbs maximum with a straight back. any info about this or thoughts?
this dog is a pet first and just a sar dog for fun so im not looking for the best possible lines or anything like that
well i have like a million questions so feel free to give me a ton of info, links, etc. while i continue to search the forum.
also im looking to buy in september or whenever afterwards if i find a breeder i like ill wait for a litter
and me and my dobie have 1 find!!!


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

No reputable breeder specializes in 'oversized' or coated GSDs. Reputable breeders only breed dogs according to the standard, and neither of those are good examples of the standard.

Why would you want an oversized german shepherd, anyway? Oversized GSDs are more prone to health problems because they simply weren't built to be 120 lbs. They are not supposed to be that big.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

I haven't heard anything bad about them, I have heard good things, she isn't a puppy mill, as far as health tests I do not know but her dogs by what people has told me is everything her site say they are.


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## baxterbrown11 (Mar 23, 2009)

Nat is exactly right in every way.
They aren't meant to be that big and out of standard.
Then, you have the increase of health problems such a HD.
I say buy one that is within it's standard.


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## brianfiremedic (Mar 23, 2009)

see this is some of the conflicting stuff ive read. this makes sense but my understanding is that gsds were originally larger (around 100lbs) and that the angulation of the back is the biggest issue with these dogs. im not a gsd purist so i dont care about breed standards only health and what i "like". im not trying to say your wrong im just trying to explain my train of thought, anyone else think that im wrong for looking for a dog like this?
-all comments appreciated


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Regardless of breed....do you really want a 120 pound SAR dog?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

GSDs were originally much smaller, in the 60 pound range, and they had the straighter back. These huge dogs came about from the thought of bigger must be better and the health and structure of these dogs suffered in direct proportion. You might get a healthy dog of that size, but the chance of that happening is very slim. Also, these dogs are being bred pretty much exclusively for the pet trade so the chance of one of them having the drive and focus to do any sort of sport or SAR work is also slim.

If you are wanting a long coat for pet and SAR work, there are lots of good breeders, both workingline and showline, that throw the occasional long coat. These dogs have a much better chance of being healthy, yet you will get the coat you are looking for.


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## brianfiremedic (Mar 23, 2009)

well i live in the cold north, ive worked with avalance dogs such as akitas and malamutes and well bloodhounds arent amazing in terms of athletecism. i love shepherds soooo much but am unexperienced with the breed. other breeds i have owned i have become framiliar with the purists of these breed and consider many true idiots(not trying to say that about anyone here, its just hard for me to take someones word instantly) i know i seem reluctant to agrre with all of you but i guess i just want it so badly, but i am taking everything said into consideration


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicsee this is some of the conflicting stuff ive read. this makes sense but my understanding is that gsds were originally larger (around 100lbs)


This is completely false. GSDs were NEVER a huge breed. In fact, modern dogs of standard size tend to be larger than the dogs of years past. The true "old style" GSD was smaller than most modern dogs, and much smaller than those dogs currently marketed as "old style", "old fashioned", etc... The idea that GSDs used to be big (and long coated) is a myth perpetuated by those who like to breed such dogs for a pet market of people who believe such claims, or have a "bigger is better" mentality.



> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedic
> and that the angulation of the back is the biggest issue with these dogs.


This can be an issue with some modern GSDs. Show lines of both types, German and American, are often much more angulated than dogs in the past, and often exhibit what would be considered to be extreme angulation under the breed standard.

However straight backs and moderate angulation can be found in GSDs of all types (though is less common in show lines) and one does not have to go to a breeder intentionally breeding oversized dogs to find it.



> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicim not a gsd purist so i dont care about breed standards only health and what i "like".


You may not consider yourself a breed purist, and that's fine. But IMO whichever breeder you choose SHOULD be. Because that is a breeder who truly cares about the breed, understands the breed and is working to preserve and improve the breed. Not one who is breeding solely for personal gain, or to fill a market niche (and using false advertising/myth propagation to do it).

As for what you like, everyone has preferences. If your preference is for a larger dog with longer/thicker coat than a standard GSD, than you may want to consider looking at breeds that are supposed to be larger and more hairy, rather than supporting a breeder who is intentionally breeding dogs outside the standard for their breed. Because IMO, if someone doesn't respect their own breed enough to follow it's standard, and is willing to ignore the standard for monetary gain or because they don't like certain aspects of it, what else are they willing to ignore or compromise on for those same reasons? Nerve? Temperament? Working ability? Health?


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## brianfiremedic (Mar 23, 2009)

thank you all for the clarification, this was so easy compared to the endless hours ive spent trying to get this answered. i am in the intial stages here of choosing another pet and it seems as though ill have to go back the drawing board on this one, i hope i dont strike you all as an irresponsible owner, this is why i do my research. also, id like to say this forum is great abd everyone who replied is a genuine person that should be a model of dog owners everywhere


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Here are a few articles you may find helpful when it comes to sorting through breeders and making the best possible choice for your next dog.

Finding a Good Breeder 

Illustrated Standard of the GSD The section on Breed Types may be enlightening as well.

Elements of Temperament This will also help explain why many of us here on the board are of the opinion that breeding stock should be titled and proven in temperament and working ability via a standardized, objective means of testing.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I don't have a ton of time during the work day to read and post - Chris has already said much of what I was thinking...

My alternative solution would be to find a coated working dog - they are often more "substantial" in bone and head, and still should have the drives if bred from Euro/West German working lines for SAR work...the coaties will often just "look" bigger and so could satisfy you aesthetically as well...

Lee


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

If you want a big GSD there's nothing wrong with that - but don''t fall for the myth that these are _Old-Style_ or _True_ or _What GSD's Are Meant To Be_ ... Doesn't matter if you believe this when I say it, do your own research into the history of GSD's - limit your search to published referance texts rather than online if you want to be certain of verified (by experts) information rather than opinion - unless you're looking at professional, peer-reviewed sites, of course (but most of these are subscription only, though if you are near a University, they will have journal subscriptions available on the library compluters). 

I also love longcoats - there are 2 sorts, a long stock coat (still within breed standard as it's doublecoated) & a longcoat (single long coat so not within breed standard) - there are some excellent representations of these on the board (check *Pictures* for Halo, Mauser, Loki are all LC's thoough I'm not certain if there are all stock coats). 
The stock coats shed alot (standard for GSD's), the single coat not so much.

If you want SAR, you want a dog with drive so look for breeders that are trialing in <u>something</u> & certify hips & elbows on their dogs - not your pups grandfather & great-grandmother etc but the actual male & female that produced your pup should be working dogs.
You want a dog that is athletic & for that you need pain-free. Read this thread for an idea of how bad HD can be!

Males are usually bigger so get a male.
OTOH if you already have a dominant male in your pack (the dobie), a female may be a better choice in terms of them getting along for life (rather than just the first couple of years until the GSD grows up & decides, _wait a minute ..... _ )








on your Find


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicsee this is some of the conflicting stuff ive read. this makes sense but my understanding is that gsds were originally larger (around 100lbs) -all comments appreciated












This is the "origional" GSD: (And what the breed founder had to say about him.) Especially note what is said in the second paragraph about his size. 

_"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. *He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size*, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."_
~Captain von Stephanitz
Originator of the breed


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Here are some more from "back in the day".










This dog was born in 1935.










This one 10+ years before that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Like others have said, anyone feeding you "Old fashioned GSDs are large, have straight backs, and much better hips" crap is just making stuff up. You can get a dog of the correct size that also has a straighter back AND really good hips. My dog is 55lbs, working lines, has a level back, and has good hips (and her son just OFA'd "excellent") and normal elbows. While her conformation is not perfect and she doesn't come anywhere near either of the two popular show "types", she has been a great performance dog for me (agility, rally, obedience, herding, etc) and she is a healthy dog with a sound body.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Lies,

When I saw the last pic I posted above, I IMMEDIATELY thought of Kenya.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicsee this is some of the conflicting stuff ive read. this makes sense but my understanding is that gsds were originally larger (around 100lbs) -all comments appreciated
> ...












And my Anna looks (to me-or maybe I am nuts-or both) like a girl Horand! Of course I don't think she is a PB GSD.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Oh Anna! You are so pretty! 

I too like larger GSDs, although to me that means more like upper seventies for females and upper eighties for males but I'm struggling even with that in terms of SAR. My current dog Grace is a very tall 73lbs and she's really just about perfect - she reads as "large" but I can carry her if I have to. I can't imagine what you'd do if a 120lb dog or even a 95lb dog got injured on a search or at training. I once had to pack my Golden Retriever on my back up the side of a mountain and then hitchhike with her back to my car when she got hurt on a hike. That was a nightmare and she only weighed 60lbs. 

Plus for SAR purposes, the smaller dogs seem to be a lot more agile and athletic which is important. For my next SAR dog I'll be shooting for that magic middle - A "big" dog, but one that I can lift if I have to, and honestly that's going to be a compromise between what I like and a slightly smaller dog which is probably optimally functional.


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## brianfiremedic (Mar 23, 2009)

so what are the thoughts on "shiloh shepherds" i know they arent really a gsd and beleive they were crossed with akita and malamutes. would this help prevent hip displasia and health problems since its not really a large shepherd its a mix breed (sort of, i know they are recognized as a special class)


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Hip Dysplasia doesn't discriminate against mixed breeds. This doesn't help prevent it, and if anything, makes them more prone if the parents weren't screened or didn't have good hip production.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicso what are the thoughts on "shiloh shepherds" i know they arent really a gsd and beleive they were crossed with akita and malamutes. would this help prevent hip displasia and health problems since its not really a large shepherd its a mix breed (sort of, i know they are recognized as a special class)


HUH? Where pray tell did you get any of those ideas?

Shilohs are GSDs, they're from breeding stock selected for being large and no other reason.

If you want to avoid being confused, you need to stop reading breeder websites and start reading more things like the BREED STANDARD.

Yes I am a breed purist and am somewhat resentful of being called an idiot...


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## brianfiremedic (Mar 23, 2009)

"Shiloh Shepherd. A breed developed in America as a reaction to the increasingly extreme show type, in a supposed attempt to recreate the qualities of the "original" GSD. Alaskan Malamute and Sarplaninac were crossed in to increase size. This is a giant breed, at least 30" at the shoulder. It is not AKC recognized, but is registered with the ISSR, or International Shiloh Shepherd Registry. All colours and long coats are accepted. Ears are slightly smaller than the GSD. Temperament is medium to soft and drive is variable. Although its giant size and soft temperament make it unsuitable as a police service dog, it is an intelligent and sensitive breed that can make a fine companion, family and therapy dog."


http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html


this is from a site that was referenced by you guys so sorry if i read the resources i was given. I thought i clarified that i didnt think your were an idiot but if you didnt understand that then well, 'nuff said.
also i went on http://www.shilohshepherds.org/licensedBreeders.htm
well anyways, im gonna do my own research on this and see where i get from there


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

That doesn't make sense...since the "old" shepherds were smaller than even today's standards, why would this be considered an attempt to go back to the "original" by increasing the size??


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDLies,
> 
> When I saw the last pic I posted above, I IMMEDIATELY thought of Kenya.


Wow, it IS the male version of Kenya!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicother breeds i have owned i have become framiliar with the purists of these breed and consider many true idiots


This is your comment that I was taking offense to



> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicthis is from a site that was referenced by you guys so sorry if i read the resources i was given. I thought i clarified that i didnt think your were an idiot but if you didnt understand that then well, 'nuff said.


I didn't give you that reference. It's quite presumptuous to think that everyone who's reading your thread has read everything on the hyperlinks.



> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicwell anyways, im gonna do my own research on this and see where i get from there


Good luck with that.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: aubieThat doesn't make sense...since the "old" shepherds were smaller than even today's standards, why would this be considered an attempt to go back to the "original" by increasing the size??


The actual quote from the site: 
"A breed developed in America as a reaction to the increasingly extreme show type, in a <span style="color: #FF0000">supposed</span> attempt to recreate the qualities of the "original" GSD. Alaskan Malamute and Sarplaninac were crossed in to increase size. "

Note the key word there... supposed.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

I thought a GSD over 100 lbs couldn't do SAR.
Think she needs to do more research!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

There were three Shilohs on my SAR team (a bitch and her two sons, who were owned by a different group member), but the bitch wasn't any larger than a normal sized female GSD and only one of the males had much drive. And I feel fairly sure that they were a very drivey bunch as Shilohs go, most wouldn't be suitable for SAR at all. 

I don't think there's any particular size limit on SAR dogs, or if there is it's a team by team thing, but most teams do have agility requirements so a dog that can't do those things wouldn't pass muster. Giant dogs just can't move like smaller ones.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Brian it doesn't really matter what any site or person says. Just look at pedigrees, they speak for themselves. If there is any merit to the over-sized, coated GSD being the "old style" GSD then let's see some proof... 

The bottom line is people can put anything they want on their own web site.


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## lars0997 (Oct 9, 2004)

I had a comment about a coated German Shepherd being more suitable for your weather in Canada and for SAR. My regular coated working line GSDs have no issues having a lot of fun outside in even the coldest days in northern MN (gets very cold upwards of -20 F before with wind child sometimes). My German showline coated GSD (she has undercoat, but not thick like some) has a hard time with the cold weather. We also have a hard time keeping ice balls out of her toes no matter how often we trim the hair. During the summer, she frequently attract burrs in her coat and they are a pain to remove. If you are really interested in SAR, you should really understand the types of drives required by the dogs - I doubt you are going to find that in a Shiloh.

Personally, I love the looks of a coat, but I wouldn't get one for the reasons you have stated.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

That's my concern about coaties too. My GSDs are all weather wash and wear. I'm not sure how a coated one would be. Might be absolutely fine - there were Aussies on our team and I've never seen Brian who owns Little Raven mention any snow issues, but on some coated dogs, it's a big problem. My Golden LOVED the snow but she'd get these huge snow clumps on her feathering that would grow and grow as she played to the point she'd have to stop and let me break them off because they'd get so big she literally couldn't walk. 

As others have alluded - the proof is in the pudding. If a a line of dogs can do the work, you'll see lots of them working, being titled, being certified etc. I know a lot of folks on this board have had negative experiences with Shilohs being skittish etc, but the ones I've met were very sweet dogs. Very sweet, low drive, nice easy family pet dogs. Not good candidates for SAR. So, it's all what you're looking for.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I remember Gandalf a SAR dog who found a lost boy scout a couple of years ago. He is a Shiloh http://www.goupstate.com/article/20070321/NEWS/703210329/1044


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Brianfiremedic, I've talked to the breeder you linked & read posts from several people that have had her dogs. They rave about the dogs & were happy with her, too. However, IF you're looking to do SAR at any level, I suspect they won't have the work ethic you need. Look to worklines, or possibly companion lines with greater drive & somewhat harder temperaments.




> Quote:No reputable breeder specializes in 'oversized' or coated GSDs.


That's a matter of _opinion_. Large & lc breeders who produce long lived, healthy dogs with excellent temperaments exemplify reputable breeding IMO.




> Quote:i know they arent really a gsd and beleive they were crossed with akita and malamutes. would this help prevent hip displasia and health problems since its not really a large shepherd its a mix breed


IF the breed crossed in has better hips, & the animals bred are thoroughly screened & tested for HD, hips _could_ be improved. With Shilohs that doesn't seem to have happened. Given info I've rec'd from people that had Shilohs, including one that was heavily involved in the breed, I'd steer clear of them. IMO, hips & health have not been improved. Nor has the temperament.




> Quote:don''t fall for the myth that these are Old-Style or True or What GSD's Are Meant To Be ...


Yes & no...The standard hasn't changed, but until recently it wasn't enforced. Even very large GSDs were given a wink & a pass. In fact, many complained bitterly that the deck was stacked heavily in favor of the overly tall & large dogs. What a cryin shame! Already murky waters were further muddied. Written records were rendered unreliable. Ultimately, diviseness, acrimony & confusion increased b/c the standard was neither changed nor adhered to..




> Quote:*Oversized GSDs are more prone to health problems* because they simply weren't built to be 120 lbs. They are not supposed to be that big.





> Quote:*Then, you have the increase of health problems such a HD.*





> Quote:These huge dogs came about from the thought of bigger must be better and *the health and structure of these dogs suffered in direct proportion. You might get a healthy dog of that size, but the chance of that happening is very slim.*


The bolded parts are myth, not fact. Knowledgeable breeders who conscientiously select for health, longevity & temperament can produce long lived, sound & healthy dogs regardless of whether they're 22" or 29".




> Quote:Like others have said, anyone feeding you "Old fashioned GSDs are large, have straight backs, and much better hips" crap is just making stuff up. You can get a dog of the correct size that also has a straighter back AND really good hips.


I missed where anyone said that large GSDs have much better hips. In fact the _misconception_ that they're much more likely to be dysplastic is prevalent & has been posted numerous times. My apologies if I've ever given anyone the impression I consider medium or small GSDs to be inherently unhealthy, unsound or undesirable. I prefer them tall, but that's purely my preference & is not intended to impugn those that are smaller.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

I thought I ought to add something to this discussion. The first Sar dog I worked with, Brutus, weighed in at very close to 135 lbs and stood close to 29 inches tall. He was also a plush (long stock) coat. He worked areas as large as ten square miles on some searches, in rugged, heavily timbered mountains from 3,000 ft to over 7,000 feet. Ofttimes we had to zig-zag back and forth between these elevations on tracks no better than deer trails. He made many successful finds, although I have no doubt that the Shutzhund people would have excoriated him as being useless and lacking in 'drive'. Brutus was very laid back and mellow and couch potatoe when not actually on a track searching for someone. His grandson, my Thane, was much the same way. Despite three successful, life-saving 'finds' in rugged wilderness terrain, the Schutzhund people said he was worthless and had no 'drive'. Thane was also a plush coat and also over-sized. Both Brutus and Thane lived long, healthy lives, free of pannus, hip displasia, elbow displasia, pancreatic insufficiency, cardio, and bloat. 
I believe that the Schutzhund people's insistance that the german shepherd breed never was large is due to ignorance of the beginning of the breed, and grounded in Stephanitz' choice of Horand von Grafath to be the number 1 shepherd in the stud book. In the beginning, there were two types of dog involved in the formation of the german shepherd, the Thuringian dog from the eastern part of germany, just south of czechoslovakia, and the Wurtemberger dog, from the area in the south of germany just north of switzerland and france. 
Horand von Grafath stood just 24 and a half inches high and was of predominantly Thuringian blood which royally frosted the socks of the Wurtembnerger crowd, who disliked Horand for being 'useless' direct quote from one of the founding fathers of the breed on livestock and too small. (Being germans, they were a lot ruder about his size than that.) The choice of Horand was highly ucontroversial and the time, but Stephanitz had fallen in love with the dog and rammed his election through despite all protests. 
The Wurtemberger dogs were 'majestic' large dogs of plush and long coat (they worked in the Alps, remember) and had a long and enviable past as livestock herding dogs, ambulance dogs (early search and rescue finding wounded soldiers on the battlefield) and family dogs. 
Prior to 1871 Germany was not a country, but only a loosely related group of principalities of which Wurttemberg was one and Thuringia was another. The idea of creating the German Shepherd dog was born out of the new nationalism, and was intended not just to create a dog mid-way between the large Wurttembergers and the much, much smaller Thuringians which would do everything the Wurtemberger dogs did and everything the Thuringian dogs did--they were attack dogs, used to track down and attack poachers by gamekeepers and landowners and to protect game. The original breed standard, which was to include male dogs of 24 to 26 inches, with a variance of one inch both ways, both larger and smaller, and bitches of 22 to 24 inches, with an additional one inch variance to 21-25 inches, was to include dogs of the Wurttemberger as well as the Thuringian type in the standard. 
From the first there was an active group of founding breeders which disliked the small size of the Thuringian dogs and wanted to push the breed standard upwards. Nores, of the Kriminal Poleitzei was 29 inches at the shoulder, a tall, rangy, long-legged dog who wasn't really Thuringian or Wurttemberger but according to records of the time, he was so popular a sire that he produced 180 recorded litters. His son was even chosen in 1921 as the German Seiger. Clearly, the love affair with oversized german shepherds is nothing new. 
American service men and women (my great aunt Marguerite was an ambulance driver in WWI) brought german shepherd dogs home with them from germany (my great aunt brought 'Bup' home with her) and many of them brought dogs which were a lot closer to the Wurttemberger tap root than the Thuringian root. They did this for a variety of reasons. The Thuringian dogs had prettier heads and faces, but the Wurttembergers had prettier dispositions. Wurttembergers were noted for steady, calm, reliable dispositions and for their kind way with children and livestock. To this day, some people will tell you that plush coated shepherds have a kinder, steadier, more reliable disposition than the short stock coat and the stock coated dogs, which may be why some people prefer them. Many of the Americans in WWI were from farms and ranches and appreciated the working abilities of the Wurtemmberger dogs because those abilities were relevant to them. My great aunt chose the Wurttemberger type, because she worked with one as an ambulance driver. When people talk about the 'classic, old-fashioned' type of german shepherd, they are talking about shepherds which cleave more to the Wurttemberger side of the family tree. 
When Hitler took over germany in the '30s, the Thuringian dogs, with their aggressiveness and willingness to bite were particularly suitable for the intimidation of large numbers of people and very effective in getting the Jews (and Others) onto trains and controlling them in concentration camps. When the communists took over the eastern part of germany, they found the dogs just as useful for patrolling their 'iron curtain'. The dogs were particularly effective in searching out and attacking anyone to be found in the no-man's land between the razor wire that marked their borders, and the german shepherd was quickly bred back to its Thuringian roots in that part of the country. These days, the little Thuringian dogs have found favor with people who enjoy the sport of Schutzhund, and with few people still working the dogs, the wonderful qualities of the Wurttemberger dogs are becoming ever more rare.
Both Wurttemberger dogs and Thuringian dogs have a long history as search dogs, but the type of their search has always been diametrically opposed. Because of the Schutzhund involvement in modern day search and rescue, the Thuringian style search has come to be more popular, and the idea that only manic dogs can be effective is their mantra. This is not true. The steadier, more methodical ways of the Wurttemberger have historically been very effective and can be today as well, and it may be well to remember that in mountainous snow country, the Wurttemberger is in his hereditary element. (The Alps, remember?)
That said, if you do choose a larger, Wurttemberger style dog, nutrition during the growth years (yes, years, a Wurttemberger style dog matures at age 3) are crucial to the healthy growth of bones and joints. These dogs require more calcium, phosphorus, vitamin d, magnesium, trace minerals, and vitamin c than their distant Thuringian cousins. 
Given all that, I must add that the breed standard is a useful guide for a workable size dog. A dog on the high side of the standard, at 27 inches and just short of a hundred pounds is still a very large dog and can be quite imposing, large enough to maintain body heat on the mountain in the snow, with a decent coat but much easier to get into a helicopter, if necessary, and not quite as impossible to get out of the wilderness if it should become necessary for some reason. There is a lot of difference between 95 pounds and 120 pounds on a make-shift travois in the back country in the snow, if that's the route you find yourself going. 
This has been long, I know, and I have tried to include a lot, but I dislike the denial of history in the insistance that german shepherd dogs have historically always been small--Thuringians have always been small! and the complete denial of the part that Wurttemberger dogs played in the origin of the german shepherd breed. khawk


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

I thought I ought to add something to this discussion. The first Sar dog I worked with, Brutus, weighed in at very close to 135 lbs and stood close to 29 inches tall. He was also a plush (long stock) coat. He worked areas as large as ten square miles on some searches, in rugged, heavily timbered mountains from 3,000 ft to over 7,000 feet. Ofttimes we had to zig-zag back and forth between these elevations on tracks no better than deer trails. He made many successful finds, although I have no doubt that the Shutzhund people would have excoriated him as being useless and lacking in 'drive'. Brutus was very laid back and mellow and couch potatoe when not actually on a track searching for someone. His grandson, my Thane, was much the same way. Despite three successful, life-saving 'finds' in rugged wilderness terrain, the Schutzhund people said he was worthless and had no 'drive'. Thane was also a plush coat and also over-sized. Both Brutus and Thane lived long, healthy lives, free of pannus, hip displasia, elbow displasia, pancreatic insufficiency, cardio, and bloat. 
I believe that the Schutzhund people's insistance that the german shepherd breed never was large is due to ignorance of the beginning of the breed, and grounded in Stephanitz' choice of Horand von Grafath to be the number 1 shepherd in the stud book. In the beginning, there were two types of dog involved in the formation of the german shepherd, the Thuringian dog from the eastern part of germany, just south of czechoslovakia, and the Wurtemberger dog, from the area in the south of germany just north of switzerland and france. 
Horand von Grafath stood just 24 and a half inches high and was of predominantly Thuringian blood which royally frosted the socks of the Wurtembnerger crowd, who disliked Horand for being 'useless' direct quote from one of the founding fathers of the breed on livestock and too small. (Being germans, they were a lot ruder about his size than that.) The choice of Horand was highly controversial and the time, but Stephanitz had fallen in love with the dog and rammed his election through despite all protests. 
The Wurtemberger dogs were 'majestic' large dogs of plush and long coat (they worked in the Alps, remember) and had a long and enviable past as livestock herding dogs, ambulance dogs (early search and rescue finding wounded soldiers on the battlefield) and family dogs. 
Prior to 1871 Germany was not a country, but only a loosely related group of principalities of which Wurttemberg was one and Thuringia was another. The idea of creating the German Shepherd dog was born out of the new nationalism, and was intended not just to create a dog mid-way between the large Wurttembergers and the much, much smaller Thuringians which would do everything the Wurtemberger dogs did and everything the Thuringian dogs did--(they were attack dogs, used to track down and attack poachers by gamekeepers and landowners and to protect game). The original breed standard, which was to include male dogs of 24 to 26 inches, with a variance of one inch both ways, both larger and smaller, to 23-27 inches, and bitches of 22 to 24 inches, with an additional one inch variance to 21-25 inches, was to include dogs of the Wurttemberger as well as the Thuringian type in the standard. 
From the first there was an active group of founding breeders which disliked the small size of the Thuringian dogs and wanted to push the breed standard upwards. Nores, of the Kriminal Poleitzei was 29 inches at the shoulder, a tall, rangy, long-legged dog who wasn't really Thuringian or Wurttemberger but according to records of the time, he was so popular a sire that he produced 180 recorded litters. His son was even chosen in 1921 as the German Seiger. Clearly, the love affair with oversized german shepherds is nothing new. 
American service men and women (my great aunt Marguerite was an ambulance driver in WWI) brought german shepherd dogs home with them from germany (my great aunt brought 'Bup' home with her) and many of them brought dogs which were a lot closer to the Wurttemberger tap root than the Thuringian root. They did this for a variety of reasons. The Thuringian dogs had prettier heads and faces, but the Wurttembergers had prettier dispositions. Wurttembergers were noted for steady, calm, reliable dispositions and for their kind way with children and livestock. To this day, some people will tell you that plush coated shepherds have a kinder, steadier, more reliable disposition than the short stock coat and the stock coated dogs, which may be why some people prefer them. Many of the Americans in WWI were from farms and ranches and appreciated the working abilities of the Wurtemmberger dogs because those abilities were relevant to them. My great aunt chose the Wurttemberger type, because she worked with one as an ambulance driver. When people talk about the 'classic, old-fashioned' type of german shepherd, they are talking about shepherds which cleave more to the Wurttemberger side of the family tree. 
When Hitler took over germany in the '30s, the Thuringian dogs, with their aggressiveness and willingness to bite were particularly suitable for the intimidation of large numbers of people and very effective in getting the Jews (and others) onto trains and controlling them in concentration camps. When the communists took over the eastern part of germany, they found the dogs just as useful for patrolling their 'iron curtain'. The dogs were particularly effective in searching out and attacking anyone to be found in the no-man's land between the razor wire that marked their borders, and the german shepherd was quickly bred back to its Thuringian roots in that part of the country. These days, the little Thuringian dogs have found favor with people who enjoy the sport of Schutzhund, and with few people still working the dogs, the wonderful qualities of the Wurttemberger dogs are becoming ever more rare.
Both Wurttemberger dogs and Thuringian dogs have a long history as search dogs, but the type of their search has always been diametrically opposed. Because of the Schutzhund involvement in modern day search and rescue, the Thuringian style search has come to be more popular, and the idea that only manic dogs can be effective is their mantra. This is not true. The steadier, more methodical ways of the Wurttemberger have historically been very effective and can be today as well, and it may be well to remember that in mountainous snow country, the Wurttemberger is in his hereditary element. (The Alps, remember?)
That said, if you do choose a larger, Wurttemberger style dog, nutrition during the growth years (yes, years, a Wurttemberger style dog matures at age 3) are crucial to the healthy growth of bones and joints. These dogs require more calcium, phosphorus, vitamin d, magnesium, trace minerals, and vitamin c than their distant Thuringian cousins. 
Given all that, I must add that the breed standard is a useful guide for a workable size dog. A dog on the high side of the standard, at 27 inches and just short of a hundred pounds is still a very large dog and can be quite imposing, large enough to maintain body heat on the mountain in the snow, with a decent coat but much easier to get into a helicopter, if necessary, and not quite as impossible to get out of the wilderness if it should become necessary for some reason. There is a lot of difference between 95 pounds and 120 pounds on a make-shift travois in the back country in the snow, if that's the route you find yourself going. 
This has been long, I know, and I have tried to include a lot, but I dislike the denial of history in the insistance that german shepherd dogs have historically always been small--Thuringians have always been small! and the complete denial of the part that Wurttemberger dogs played in the origin of the german shepherd breed. khawk


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

My recommendation would be to go with a breeder who has produced certified SAR K9s, and who occasionally has a litter that might have a coat. My current SAR K9 is 73lbs, and I wish she were a 50lb dog. I have had to carry her at times, during trainings, and my back cannot handle lifting that. It is always something to keep in mind that in the event of an injury and you have to carry your dog out of the search grid, less is beneficial. 

I know a couple of Leons that are SAR, I would NOT want to be a handler for that large a breed. On top of it, as gorgeous as those Leons are, pulling burrs, and other natural items out of their fur is painstaking at best. 

In the next year I will be training a new SAR dog to replace my current 8 year old. I may choose one from my breeding, or I may go with another working line dog from a breeder who produces smaller dogs with working ability, who has also produced SAR dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Interesting post on the origins of the breed khawk....and one I have found substantiated elsewhere.

However, the origins of the breed are 100 years behind us, and as the breed developed, the size that WAS established is the medium sized dog. It was judicious blending of the three root types to evolve into a smaller dog, with stock coat and working ability. Genes hide and come through from 10-15 generations back, and yes, there are people who chose to breed on traits contrary to the standard.

The Standard DEFINES a breed - any and all breeds - not just ours. The Standard is the blueprint of the ideals of the breed, and responsible breeders attempt to come as close to possible in both physical and mental qualities to that standard. Breeding outside the standard intentionally is not truly breeding German Shepherd Dogs - irregardless of AKC or SV papers. Registration certificates are documents of origin and ownership, there is no quality control or approvals inherent in AKC registration paperwork. 

There will always be dogs who pop up with genetic ties from very far back in their pedigrees - dwarfs happen. The genetics for them can be 15 generations back - does this make them desireable as well??? Should we attempt to breed and market them? No - they are not within the parameters of the standards.

Your comments on crazy schutzhund dogs are also painted with too broad a brush. Yes, there are dogs who are not mentally stable and over teh top in nerves and character - dogs who cannot settle. The majority of dogs I have met who do schutzhund can and do function as house dogs as well....personally I have had 6 titled dogs, some multiple Schh3s who have ALL been very happy to crash on the couch irregardless of how much exercise they have or have not had during the day. Breedign to the standard brings with it a balanced temperament essential for the dog to function as a companion as well as a working animal. Responsible breeding is that which addresses not only working ability, but character, health and appearance - complying with the standard as it stands.

Lee Hough


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> 
> 
> > Quote:Like others have said, anyone feeding you "Old fashioned GSDs are large, have straight backs, and much better hips" crap is just making stuff up. You can get a dog of the correct size that also has a straighter back AND really good hips.
> ...


I was not referencing anything you said, but stuff I have read on the 'net, such as....



> Quote:The new style German Shepherd is dying much sooner then Shepherds from just 20 years ago.





> Quote:Bringing back what the shepherd used to be for 25 years





> Quote:large heads, heavy bones, and tall frames typical of the old fashioned shepherds.





> Quote:the new style German shepherd is dying or being put down much sooner then shepherds from just 20 years ago.





> Quote:THE OLD WORLD, OLD FASHIONED STYLE THAT IS OVERSIZED. THESE ARE THE DOGS YOU USED TO SEE BACK IN THE 40'S, 50'S AND 60'S.





> Quoteassion to [...] preserve the old, pure bloodlines


These are just a few things I found after a simple Google search. I'm not making any comments on these breeders, their dogs, or their breeding programs, only that these _statements_ are misleading, unsubstantiated, if not entirely false.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Shiloh Shepherds and King Shepherds are not German shepherds. Both have been crossed with other breeds. At one point, many years ago, Shiloh did breed 100% German shepherds and you will find many of them in AKC records and in pedigrees.

I think some folks fail to realize that these two hybrids do not claim to be German shepherds. There were also some health/hip issues in the early breeding of these lines with too much and too close line breeding being identified as the culprit.

These dogs should not be compared to genetically large 100% German shepherds - that is an inaccurate comparison and unfair to the German shepherd breed.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

May have already been said, but if you're looking for a dog to be used as a SAR dog, then I would go against a longhaired dog that is "oversized." I know our local group says 40-100 lbs. (give or take).

As far as "Shiloh Shepherds," the "creator" of the breed has trademarked the breed name "Shiloh Shepherds." In other words, while others could breed dogs with the same type of breeding as "Shiloh Shepherds," unless they bought their dog from the "creator," she says they are not "Shiloh Shepherds." Last I knew, they were going to start pursuing trademark infringement on people using the term "Shiloh Shepherd" to promote their dogs.

A "King Shepherd" is said to be a Shiloh Shepherd/German Shepherd cross.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

^^ Edit: While the creator of "Shiloh Shepherds" still shows "TM" behind her breed name and still claims that they are "Trademarked," I just found a ruling from the Patent and TM office from '98 that refused her claim for a Trademark:

"For many years the breed founder has claimed all other registries that are not associated with her as producing frauds because of her trademark rights to the name Shiloh Shepherd. 

The USTPO (United States Trademark & Patent Office) Ruling shows that a determination was made in a court of law in January 1998, that there are no trademark rights to the name Shiloh Shepherd."


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## bosco146 (Jan 30, 2004)

Brian Check your pm's


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocShiloh Shepherds and King Shepherds are not German shepherds. Both have been crossed with other breeds. At one point, many years ago, Shiloh did breed 100% German shepherds and you will find many of them in AKC records and in pedigrees.
> 
> I think some folks fail to realize that these two hybrids do not claim to be German shepherds. There were also some health/hip issues in the early breeding of these lines with too much and too close line breeding being identified as the culprit.
> 
> These dogs should not be compared to genetically large 100% German shepherds - that is an inaccurate comparison and unfair to the German shepherd breed.


Doc I'm not sure if you meant this in reference to my post or not (it says you were replying to me but maybe not specifically). If you were, I should clarify that I agree with your post here, but the quotes I posted were from the "large" "old style" "100% German Shepherd" sites, not Shilohs or Kings.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

brian,
i can't comment on shiloh shepherds b/c i honestly do not know enough to be helpful. however what i can comment on is that imo there are alot of very knowledgable people on this board with extensive knowledge in the breed itself, the breed standard, and the reasons behind the logic. they are not purists, although i am sure there are tons out there. i, too would like to caution you on choosing a breeder that breeds for one or two characteristics. the reason is this, it limits the gene pool for one. and second because when you are using a smaller genetic pool you are opening yourself up to more problems. problems can surface in temperment issues and also health issues. both of these things are not productive to SAR work, and even hinder plain ol' companionship. that being said, there are dogs bred to the standard that do turn out to be larger and/or long coats. reputable breeders though do not take two large, long haired dogs and breed them, and they most certainly do not call them "old world" or anything of the like. gsd's are awesome awesome dogs. they have a true desire to please, to work, and to be "with" their handlers/owners. they are intelligent and protective and loyal to the ends of the earth. but you have the best chance of recieving all these assests by choosing a breeder who breeds to the standard and who ensures the health and temperment of their breeding stock.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

KHawk, very informative post and historically very accurate. As Lee indicated there were primarily three "types" that created this magnificent breed. The Swabian service dog was also part of the equation. Unfortunately very few people have the perspective or historical knowledge to be able to differentiate these types anymore....therefore the bluprint of the standard is utilized by most internationally. hopeful that you continue to share some of your knowledge with the board as there are some of us that historical knowledge is necessary for the improvement of our decisions.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Lies

I wasn't directing my post to you - just in general. I hope others join this thread - it is very informative and helpful!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

OK, where is all the history written? Other than Max's book, are there other reference books describing these early lines? And are there breeders still around that breed from these lines?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocOK, where is all the history written? Other than Max's book, are there other reference books describing these early lines? And are there breeders still around that breed from these lines?


I think it very important to point out, as Lee did earlier, that the early lines khawk referred to are PRE GSD lines. The types of dogs from which the breed was formed. Not early GSDs. Yes, there is a big difference.

As for writings about this, there is much on the internet though of course one can never tell what is fact and what is fiction. There are a few true GSD bloodline historians who will share this information with others. And there is Max' book of course, and also Willis' book which cover much of this info as well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

khawk

Interesting post, but Chris and Lee's are coming up more true to me. I don't think anyone argues against the statement that large hairy dogs were in the foundation stock as were the fleet light dogs. 

I am just not finding these large hairy dogs in the GSD BREED history. Anywhere in all the old photos I have seen. I doubt these photos have been culled because I see the longcoats, the brindles, the wirecoats etc but they are all still medium sized dogs. That includes WWI search and rescue photos and paintings.

You are saying you and your dog worked 10 square miles on some searches? I find that hard to believe. That is 6400 acres. For most people a 160 acre section on an area search would be a full operational shift. Mountainous terrain would make it worse. I think that is realistic too, based on what I have seen on searches around here.

I am also struggling with the schutzhund influence in SAR. What the heck are you talking about? Most SAR groups won't go near a sport dog with a 10 foot pole due to concerns about liabilty issues and public perception. And GSDs are one of many breeds doing SAR.

All things aside - ok - why would I not want to work 120 lb dog
*It gets hurt, I get to carry it out
*agility - sorry smaller dogs ARE more agile
*lifting - having pulled my dog up into a boat and lowered him from a front loader
*heat tolerance - 

Ok drive. We do have a Shiloh on our team and the dog does well for trailing. This Shiloh has some more GSD in the mix than most. We were skeptical and thought the dog would wash early on but the owner has turned it into a nice working dog. Her husband has a golden also turning into a nice trailing dog. Neither dog is whacko over the top. Bloodhounds aren't either and they make good trailing dogs.

For air scent and cadaver work, I don't think I would want anything but a manic dog.

brianfiremedic

You want a pet dog first and a SAR dog just for "fun"? Lives are at stake when you are out searching. Why wouldn't you want the BEST tool for the job instead of the best pet? We almost lost a dog in a river at flood stage during a recent search; that is also a mindset we want everyone to have - if it is for a person possibly alive, the dog is disposable. For a dead person, we won't risk the dog's life.

I see you have a dobe now. If you can train a dobe in SAR you are probably a good trainer because the few I have seen that made it took a LOT more work than most GSDs or Labs or BCs to get there. 

How does the dog handle the cold? The dobe we had on our team REALLY hated being wet and cold and shivered a lot under those conditions while the other dogs were energized by it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

khawk, Say maybe I sounded too harsh on that 10 square mile thing. I just can't even begin to imagine working an area that size.

Come on over and post in the search and rescue section. 

Your post is intellegent - and parts ring true about the steady methodical dog for certain functions.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think Khawk was advocating changing the standard or even breeding for oversize dogs....what I think he was trying to impart is that when you have a knowledge of the creation of German shepherd and what the uses and temperaments of these dogs were, then you can account for the many variations that occur in the breed such as size, coat type, color, structure, etc. There are things that are going to always crop up in the breed depending on the use of the breed because KHawk is right in that certain types of "preGSD" that were used to formulate the breed also carried certain Characteristics (mental and physical) with them. This is one of the reasons that some lines that go through Rolf vom Onasbruckerland(sp) will never significantly improve in temperament. There is so much backmassing on the thuringina type of dog and they continue to do this to hold on to the thuringia type that also carries with it shyness, sharpness, from lack of nerves. All I am saying is knowledge is valuable for understanding why and for some people that are not so dogmatic about what they think(and often this dogmatism is based on limited knowledge), this knowledge can help them either make better decisions or to understand why certain things occur in the breed and how and deal with these things constructively.JMO


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Interesting

My male goes through Rolf v Osnabrucker Land by way of Bernd V Lierburg in the male tail line. And is one of the most stable solid dogs I have ever owned.

He is a working cadaver dog. He also lives in my house. Does have those crazy drives but can also calm and focus. No sharpness, shyness or lack of nerves. He is also great with my grandkids.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

And what line is Bernd v Lierburg closer to - Thuringian or Wurttemberger?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

It is recorded that all three lines were used to "create" the German shepherd: Wurttemberger, Thuringian, and Swabian; threrefore, genes of three would run throughout the breed. Once someone takes an extremist point of view i.e. my dog is "real" german shepherd and yours isn't because he doesn't meet the standard" nothing can be accomplished and learning goes out the window.

It is easy to see, if you revisit the historical evolution, that two German shepherd dogs can conceivably look very different i.e. big vs. smaller. We all know how and why the standard came about, although it was extremely controversial at the time. With the rise of nationalism in Germany, Max von Stephanz ensured that there would be one dog know as a German shepherd and it will conform to "my" standard. I have read and heard Max had a way of getting whatever he wanted. Keeping in line with the national push in Germany during the time to "breed" the superior race, even animals wwere manipulated by the Nazi's.

From a biological/genetic standpoint, if the gene pool contained the genes to produce large German shepherds - which it did in this case from the Wurtemberger lines - then non-standard German shepherds should be expected, and are produced. When those of opposing camps fail to recognize and criticize their fellow German shepherd fellows, an unfortunate event happens and there is a massive division in the house. Yes we have differences in the structure and temperment of dogs but it is their human owners that push aside people who are not in the same camp as them.

Recently, the gentle, calm, low drive, large German shepherd has been ostracized by the owners, breeders, and dog organizations that only focus on the smaller, higher driven, "standard" type of German shepherd. It can be seen in this very form. Many in the "standard" camp are quick to judge a German shepherd owner if their view is not in line with theirs. And the "standard" camp puts labels on those that breed dogs that are larger than the standard such as BYB, irresponsible, and unethical. The unwilingness of some to recognize the genetic diversity of this breed is appauling.

If approached with an open mind, everyone can learn something about this breed we all love. And before one responds that the German shepherd has never been a large dog and Max never intended it to be, remember Max's motives and what genes are in the mix.


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## brianfiremedic (Mar 23, 2009)

ya, thats the same motto as firefighting, risk your life for a life, calculated/minor risk to save property, no risk for almost definitive death
ya the dobe isnt fond of the winter months but booties and a coat make it manageable down to about -30 celsius

im a good trainer? hahaha, ya right. i just have lots of patience because it so fun, but my parents train agility and have really helped me out, repetition repetition repetition.

i guess its a poor choice of words to say i want to do sar, JUST for fun, i know what you mean about the best possible, it always bothered me when people were worried about JUST passing the physical, i mean its the minimum not a target goal.but well ya, my priority is still a pet/family member, just like in my earlier years my vounteer firefighting was still serious but we all took less risk 

i am a competetive powerlifter and i know carrying a large dog would be harder, but i am confident that i would stuggle the same way an average person in size would struggle with an average sized dog(no offence to anyone) although my girlfriends malamute is another story, but hey, thats why you have atvs and snowmobiles on hand.

heres something thatll stir the pot and get EVERYONE mad. if you want the best dog for the job (trailing, scent discrimination etc.) why dont you all have bloodhounds?

also, this isnt arguing just a genuine question, why do you need that agile of a dog? i can see endurance, but its not like your chasing down a criminal, and anywhere you yourself can make it you can usually lift your dog there too, yes/no?

well ive contacted a sar teacher thats paasing through town, so im meeting him and gonna pick his brain (he is a gsd breeder as well) and ill post his thoughts later.
sorry if i seem argumentative, i just like to question things


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicheres something thatll stir the pot and get EVERYONE mad. if you want the best dog for the job (trailing, scent discrimination etc.) why dont you all have bloodhounds?
> 
> also, this isnt arguing just a genuine question, why do you need that agile of a dog? i can see endurance, but its not like your chasing down a criminal, and anywhere you yourself can make it you can usually lift your dog there too, yes/no?


Because you can use GSDs for a variety of jobs...they're one of the most adaptive breeds...and bloodhounds, IMHO, are as dumb as rocks. Good for sniffing, that's bout it. I want something that can do the job and be a smart, intelligent companion.

It's not all about endurance...some dogs need to be agile to get in tight spots, building collapse, debris, etc. You can't carry your dog through that at all times and expect them to also be able to do SAR.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: brianfiremedicheres something thatll stir the pot and get EVERYONE mad. if you want the best dog for the job (trailing, scent discrimination etc.) why dont you all have bloodhounds?


No mad, but bloodhounds are a specialized dog for trailing on lead. 

Many have taken other dogs to the same level. In wilderness search you want trailing dogs [and we have one bloodhound on our team and hope to be adding another soon] but you also want airscent dogs working offlead who will cover large areas offlead, report back the handler and take them to the victim. Also you want dogs trained in cadaver work. Neither one of these last 2 things is a niche for BHs. I do believe that when you get out a few days, maybe the bloodhound would be the "trailing dog of choice" but not sure. 

Also, other breeds do just fine at scent discrimination. All of our dogs are scent discriminatory [we have GSDs, labs, mixes] and there is an interesting book, called K9 suspsect identification [I think] on the topic.

Ok - Agility - with a lot of deadfall you want dogs that can jump over squeeze through - climb rocks - fall and land on their feet - not fall down in the woods. You may not be chasing criminals but you would be surpirsed in the places where you would think no human being could fit that a 3 year old or an alzheimers victim can get. I have been on creek banks where it took both of my hands and feet as well as a prayer or two that the trees I am using for support don't give way, to maneuver up the sides - maybe a person did not go that route but the scent did and the dog did so the handler does too.

And I was sincere about the dobes - they took a LOT of patience for the folks who trained them and a LOT of repetition.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nancy, notice I said that "some" lines that go through Rolf, this usually separates when we get to Vello, who is the father of Bernd with the immortal female Betty Ensfield(sp), as Bernd's mother. Betty was out of one of the strongest working dogs genetically of that time. Whereas a lot of other lines of Rolf went through Jalk v Fohlenbrunnen, which began the start of the Wienerau lines. Both vello and jalk go back to rolf but because of the influx of Dixie Wienerau the breed took a whole new direction in producing the L vd Wienerau litter....the rest is history.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

To be honest, I know Bernd v Lierburg was at the cusp of the show working rift, but that is about all I know there. I am not understanding the comment about this dog [Rolf] and nerves. I would assume by looking at him that Bernd would be of more a Thuringian "type" But then I don't pretend to know a lot.

I have however looked at a LOT of GSD books etc and don't see the big fluffy dogs in the history other than as predecessor dogs. And a lot of those pictures were of actual working dogs, not show dogs.

Well I have heard the downfall of the lines there was the Wienerau lines and the Martin brothers and the things they were allowed to do that others were not such as excessive use of one stud, close linebreedings, etc, and that is when many genetic disorders came to the forefront.

Personally, I think not killing any more diversity in the breed itself is a healthy thing from a genetic standpoint, but the claim that large fluffy dogs are the "original" GSD is outlandish because the breed was steered into a more current type very early on. 

For me, I like my Czech/DDR dog and many others I have met. 

Say, I have asked a question elsewhere and not ever seen an answer. My dog has almost a wire coat. It is a very rough broken coat. Not a long coat through. It explodes when he gets wet [think afro] [whereas my other GSD looks like an otter] - I would think that would be inefficient the broken coat, but a lot of terriers have them and he does great in brambles and never seems to get cold. I know wire coats were in the old lines, do you ever see GSDs like this with wiry coats? Where does that come from.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Some people think the GSD founding dogs from Württemberg (as are today's Rotties), were related to today's Greater Swiss Mountain Dog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Swiss_Mountain_Dog
Probably also to the Bernese Mountain Dog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernese_Mountain_Dog (one of my favorite non-GSD breeds)
The state of Baden-Württemberg borders Switzerland.
I believe, although I can't remember the exact reference, that some of the recent dog genetic studies have also found these linkages.
To the OP, you might want to consider getting a GSMD or a BMD as your SAR dog. I don't know about GSMDs, but a good SAR dog in your province is a BMD. They also fit your preferences in terms of size and coat.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

http://www.herdingontheweb.com/english.htm
http://www.altdeutschehuetehunde.de/?id=10
http://www.altdeutschehuetehunde.de/?id=8
http://www.nmbe.ch/deutsch/531_5_3_1.html


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I think if you trace Bernd v Lierburg back to Kallengarten then you are seeing the influence of the Wurttember line. Taller and heavier boned than Horand; different coat color; bushy tail, etc. All influences from the Wurttemberger line. I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what dogs from these lines were used in Max's 10 year breeding program. I would submit that somewhere back then, a rather large Wurttember dog was used that carried the genetics for both plush and short coat. 

I have seen the wire haired trait on some German shepherds and can only surmise that it is from the genetics of some wired-haired shepherd from the long past.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I would also argue that the "big fluffy" german shepherd is indeed as important as the other two lines that contributed to the German shepherd we know today. To think otherwise is not logical.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ocean, I realize Molossers are in the foundation lines of the GSDs but I have yet to see one cut the mustard as a SAR dog. I am sure there are some out there somewhere but every last one I have seen, even Rotts don't seem to have *cough* the drive to do the work. And I am not talking just prey drive - hounds have a drive to trail that is not the same as visual prey drives people want in sport dogs.

The only GSMD I saw try would not go more than 10 feet from its handler and would not get its feet wet. It was depressing. I have seen people try - rotts, GSMD, Mastiff, G Pyrenees, they all washed out. The dog's hearts were not in it even with owners who worked very hard with them. 

Tried and true are the herding dogs, sporting dogs and some hounds. 

Doc, when I say "big fluffy" I am talking about these 120lb-140lb mammoth dogs, not heavy boned dogs or recessive longcoats.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

That's a very interesting observation about the Rotties you've seen in SAR, because they do well in schutzhund tracking. I've seen a Rottie go HIT in scH trials several times, beating many GSDs. Any ideas? Perhaps just different lines of Rotties? I think most breeds today can also be divided into show lines and lines that are closer to their working origins. Perhaps if someone tried a working line Rottie. Are there any BMD working lines? I really don't know.


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I was recently told by a head trainer of the NYSP that they will no longer use Rotti's due to the fact that the break down in hot weather too quickly....


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Very early in the history of the German shepherd dog, some breeders wanted two lines of German shepherds - one for the upper class and the other a dog used for herding. They also proposed 3 coat types - wire haired, plush, and short. As was the case with many decisions back then, Old Max squelched all that discussion and decided what the breed will look like. It is interesting to note that in 1922 more then 28% of the male dogs recorded in the German stud book were actually classified as "over sized" (larger than Max's standard). But after the decree went out from Max about dogs over the standard being unwanted, by 1932 no dogs recorded were "over sized". Fortunately, many breeders continued to breed at the top of the standard and even bigger. If not, then the bloodlines of the future US and Seiger champions would of evaporated.

From our historical roots, there has always been this division about the size of the German shepherd. And it appears what happened in Germany under Max's leadership has taken root in this country today. It is a pity not to learn from history and an even greater disgrace to let it happen again. Isn't it past time to bury the issues that divide?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The problem is that the "bury the issues that divide" you are talking about is that essentially what you are saying is that the standard means nothing. Just because people don't like a certain aspect of it, they should be allowed to ignore that aspect and breed whatever they want so long as those genetics already preexist in the breed.

Where does it end? How do you determine what aspects of the standard can just be thrown out the window, what throw back genes are "ok" to perpetuate out of personal preference? And when does the dog cease to be a GSD? There are many people who will breed 120lb, 29" tall long coats with soft temperaments and now working ability, and try to justify that as proper GSD breeding. So if it's 18" tall, 35lbs, soft eared, mole coated blue and silver, and someone likes that and wants to breed a bunch of them it's ok to still consider that a proper representative of the GSD and that breeder a good breeder of GSD? 

The standard defines the breed. Whether you like "Old Max" or not, he was the creator of this breed, and as with anything else, the creator gets to set forth the definition of his creation. In the case of the GSD, unlike many breeds, his vision had a purpose and most everything written into the standard had a utilitarian aspect. There was very little left to vanity or personal preference.

What is the purpose of having a "breed" if they are so different that they all look like mutts that aren't even related to one another, and more importantly, they ACT like mutts who aren't even related and bear no resemblance to their breed's heritage and the character that made it such a respected and sought after breed in the first place.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

"The Purpose of the Breed", therein lies the problem to many of the woes of today. We have a standard that creates a dog that should be a superb working dog. There will always be many many variations of this great dog because of the creation of the dog is of so many variables. The National Select dog each year should be the SCH/Herding National champion as this would promote mental and physical excellence as the criteria for people to breed to. This is apropo for a working/herding dog. Now the structure of the dog should emanate from this basis. Why? because you currently have a majority of the GS of today that fit the "standard in structure" but not in working. I adhere to the standard in principle, but donot want to become so dogmatic that we let dogs like Vello zd Sieben-Faulen be ignored because of size when he brought so much to the table as history has shown. The driving force behind successful breeding must be working ability, and though I donot condone breeding for size, I also donot condone breeding for angulation, color, sidegait, etc. There will always be some superior specimen that are a little small and a little large, if superior( By superior I mean in working) they should be used judiciously to compliment areas that they may bring balance while maintaining the excellence of the work.JMO


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Excellent post, Cliff. I totally agree.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Horand was a useless pet dog that could not work who was due to be PTS by the farmer/breeder because of his inabilities. But Max liked the way he looked. Read your history. 

It appears that all the various camps read part of the Standard and ignore the rest. Low riders are not the GSD in any way shape or form that resemblems the Standard - again someone wanted to recognize the low rider as the ultimate German shepherd. Like wise the Sch. crowd boasts that their dogs "walk the lead" and accept being bitten as part of the training and places a high vlaue on a dog that grips strong, hangs on and knocks down over other characteristics mentioned in the standard.

I also know that the Standard has been rewritten when certain factions gain power in the various organizations. At that point is isn't about the "Standard" or dogs; it's politics. The standard has its place but it is not followed to the T by any one GSD camp. So to use the standard as your only evidence is a very weak position to hold.

What don't you look back at breeders like Tobias Ott? Research dogs like Ewald Gigelberg. Study the politics in Germany and in the German breeding world around 1920. Don't be blind to history. And accept the fact that Max railroaded the standard. The proof is there and the "Standard" is not the holy grail.

What current GSD qualities did Max's smaller Thuriangian lines contribute? What part of the Standard are written that encompass the Thuringian contribution? I can only see "erect ears" as their contribution.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Excellent Cliff!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks as well. Like many I don't know a whole lot about historical details.

But for the OP. If I were selecting a puppy for work, I would select it from proven working stock and not on any "looks" or "style" and would keep the dog to a medium working size.

Personally I agree with those who select young adults for SAR - select the dog on its own merits if you cannot afford to take the gamble on a puppy. That is probably the route I will go when I get my next dog - it sure worked nicely for the one I have.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

OP

You may also consider what type of SAR you will do. Livestock vs. human; mountainous vs. coastal; small area vs large area, etc. 

Good luck in your search.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Livestock?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Beleive it or not, yes livestock. It's a big world out there and German shepherds are used for all kinds of SAR operations - including locating lost livestock.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

SAR is generally used for Search and Rescue of human beings (alive or dead).


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Duh ... but there are times that livestock are the target. Why does that seem so unbeleivable?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

It doesn't seem like the issue is that people don't believe there are dogs trained to find livestock, just that they're saying they're accustomed to the term SAR referring to search and rescue of humans.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Exactly. There are dogs trained to track and locate lost pets as well. However the terminology of "Search and Rescue" refers to people, not animals. It's the use of the term for finding animals that people are questioning.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

It seems that there is almost no limit to the application of dog scenting abilities
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/03/27/mf.dog.sniffing/index.html?iref=newssearch
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/living/2008/07/18/sbs.k9.detectives.cnn?iref=videosearch


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

None of it sounds unbelievable, heck when I retire I may look into training a termite dog or a bedbug detection dog - may serve well to bring in extra money ..............There are all sorts of things dogs are used for like finding endangered species, medical detecion uses, USDA, drugs, weapons, arson, etc. the list is long

But I have never heard the term "SAR" used for anything but people; does not mean dogs don't do all kinds of interesting detecion work. When I think of what "type" of SAR, I am thinking trailing, airscent, or cadaver(land and water), or disaster and avalache which are both airscent specialties ....... never seen a dog classed as a mountain SAR dog or a coastal SAR dog


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Chris -So what is the term? I wasn't aware that SAR had a standardized definition. If a dog conducts a seach and rescue what difference does it make what they are after? Are they not searching and rescuing? It just happens to be 4 legged animals. 

I asked the question about geography because there was an aqusation that a "big" dog could not handle the mountains in a past thread I think.

I am constantly amazed by the versitilities of the German shepherd what ever label you want to put on them. 

I now have a better understanding why there was such discourse in the formation of the SV - the lack of a perspective transformation was/is everywhere.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Doc, what the heck is your point?

We all know dogs can do many jobs but it is pretty frustrating being on a SAR team and having people call us to help find their lost dogs [we don't do dogs]. Yes we are polite and try to steer them to someone who does this.

SAR is common usage. And if you go google "livestock SAR" tell us you what you come up with. I got 14 hits none related to search and rescue. The overwhelming majority of Search and Rescue operations have nothing to do with dogs. 

If you look at NIMs credentialing recommendations you will see that none of the K9 Certifications are related to finding anything but people.

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/sar_jobtitle_111806.pdf


Technially most search dogs are not part of the rescue effort, just the find part so the "and rescue" is kind of meaningless other than the dogs usually work with law, fire and EMS who actually do the rescue. USAR teams are coordinated units the the dogs are a part of the rescue effort. 

On the big dog thing - don't know where all the threads are other than advantages and disadvantages of big vs medium sized dogs. That was already mentioned in this thread and the reasons why people should consider sticking with a more modearate sized dog. In the SE US we have another dimension where the dogs need heat tolerance. Big Furry dogs no good for that. Canada would be different in that regard.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

And this is the NIMS resource typing.
Most teams and national standards are aligning themselves with these standards.

If you go on the main page you will see there ARE large animal rescue teams, but then scroll down to "search and rescue" and you will see it is all for human.

http://www.nimsonline.com/resource_typing_system/

There ARE mountain rescue teams - it is not so much the dog but the high angle rescue training and of course, dogs working in very rough terrain may need specialized training in terms of with helicopters and rapelling [another reason to have a moderate sized dog-would you want to rappell with a 150lb dog hanging off your chest?]


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

**** Personal attacks are NOT allowed on this BB. Since there was too much to edit I have deleted the entire post. Admin**


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Doc, no reason to get into an argument with you; I was just frustrated that you continued questioning the common usage of the term "SAR" despite several responses; It really does not matter.

There are no specifications on the size of dogs used on search operations. Just trying to save the OP from winding up with wasted time and effort by suggesting he start with a more suitable tool for the job. 

Have seen to many people come and go with lumbering low drive giants to know that their success rate is considerably lower. There are some out there but the overwhelming majority are not. 

As far as NIMs, well this is a FEMA requirement and as time rolls on all search and rescue teams are being resource typed for call out purposes. I know our state has already done that and we HAVE to have NIMS training to respond to a call. They don't care about size or breed, just that the team can do the job at hand.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

No need to get frustrated. I, too was frustrated because I thought the German shepherd was short-changed when someone questioned the livestock rescue efforts. To a person who has lost important animals, it does make a difference.

The paragraph about MINS, PETA, etc. was my attempt to add some humor to this dialog. It was in no way meant as disrespectful. I just know how things get bogged down in red tape - especially when FEMA is involved. Time spent in NO rebuilding houses years after the disaster taints ones thoughts about the usefulness of that governmental organizations.

So what do you call a German shepherd that is involved in animal search and rescue? ROFLMAO


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Doc, emotions run high when people talk about things for which they have a passion. No offense given and hopefully none taken.

It has been a learning experience about some of the older larger dogs and some of the breed history. I did look up the 1921 SGR and it is clear he would have to be a tall dog - but a slender dog!
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1999.html

Most of what I have seen THESE DAYS in large dogs are really sluggish couch potatoes, though we take each dog and handler on their own merits.

Gandalf the Shiloh is not a flashy dog, he is also not huge - maybe 95-100lbs. He is a reliable and steady worker with a very even temperament. Not, however the dog that can probably cover the same terrain a normal airscent dog would, particularly in the summer, but he is a good methodical trailing dog. His handler is an experienced horsewoman and that combined with her long history with dogs and farm animals, probably allowed her to bring him to his full potential. I will say, though, that even she had moments of serious doubt during his early training. 

Hmmmmm, a German Shepherd involved in livestock search and rescue? Hmmm have to think on that one can't come up with any good names at the minute, but hey they could track them on the cow pies alone


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Livestock Search and Rescue Squad Name:
Where's the Beef?

Nancy-how big is Grim? (still stalking him...)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Jean you HAVE it - great since of humor.

Grim ranges from 68 to 72 lbs. About 23 inches at the shoulder so a bit small for the breed but a VERY nice workable size for me. Particularly since I have had to lower him from things he climbs without thinking. 

He seems quite stocky though with heavy bone - no fat -remarkably agile; he can and has crawled on his belly with his legs straight behind him to get to a source under a crawlspace.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

He's perfect! Does he ever have any plans for a trip north?














I know, doubtful! It never hurts to ask!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LOL no travel planned







Let me know if you ever come to SC.
You <u>have </u>seen the video of him before I got him?


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Nancy - We haven't seen Grim pictures in a VERY VERY VERY long time!!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I must try to get some video clips of him at training. If I do, I will post in the search forum. Guess I will have to strip that blowing coat out so he will look good. Looks like a wooly bear right now.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Nancy J - none taken. Besides, we are both in the Carloinas and should sit on the veranda, sip sweet ice tea under the old magnolias ans dicuss this wonderful breed. Cheers.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DocChris -So what is the term? I wasn't aware that SAR had a standardized definition.


*Search and Rescue (SAR)* is the search for and provision of aid to people who are in distress or imminent danger.

*Mountain Rescue* relates to search and rescue operations specifically in rugged terrain such as mountains, desert and forest. Also related to wilderness search and rescue which includes areas such as sea, lakes, rivers or caves. // Mtn Rescue, in this area, is used interchangibly with "High Altitude Rescue."

*Urban Search and Rescue* (Also known as Suburban Search and Rescue as USAR Teams often relates to structural collapses and other technical rescue) operations are Search and Rescue operations conducted in a city.

*Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR)* is a function of special military units during wartime. CSAR consists of operations carried out to retrieve, rescue and provide assistance to downed aircrew or allies behind enemy lines.

*Air Sea Rescue (ASR)* specifically can refer to both the use of aircraft to search for and locate or recover personnel lost at sea and the recovery of downed airmen at sea.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Technically I would change

US&R Urban Search and Resuce typically covers disaster situations of any type. Most [not all] Wilderness units are not equipped for serious disaster ops except as limited first responders and would defer to a deployed US&R team in a heartbeat. . 

It can be a fiasco when teams who think they are prepared for such things as floods, earthquakes, etc. self-deploy but are not; . 

Wilderness teams can and do often search in urban non-disaster situations - you would be surprised how much "wilderness" can be in the middle of a big city. Never heard Wilderness classified under "mountain". An urban team is not likely to be called out for a missing kid, despondent, or nursing home walk-off.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

It was not solely related to canine Search and Rescue but rather SAR as a whole (including military) and just an overview on definitions (from NASAR and various military/government sites)


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

OK, I am committing all this stuff to memory. This is more detailed and complicated then Chinese arithmetic. I will throw in my towel - you have whopped me. No mas por favor!

I will rest better tonight knowing there are folks who will come save my big old butt if I get lost! But then again, some would probably like to leave me out there - rofl.


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## robbhe7 (Apr 12, 2009)

Ayer's has beautiful shepherds, no doubt. However, I spoke with her several times about purchasing a puppy, and she admitted to having inbred her dogs to "preserve her lines".


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