# Thinking About Switching to Raw Diet



## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hey guys hows it going? Its been a little over 3 months since we've rescued Bruno, he was an 18 month old 59 lbs GSD, now he's 21 months and about 70 lbs. Ever since we got him he's scratched like crazy, we've switched foods a few times, the vet has told us to feed him Royal Canine Skin Support. He's been on that for a month and a half, and nothing has changed.

Ive heard stories about people with the same problems, even people with dogs who have rashes on their mouths, switch to raw diets with great results. I'm not sure if this is the way to go, but it seems like everyone in my family likes the idea of feeding raw food. Anyone else agree? I really dont have a clue on where to start, but I'll search around.
Thanks


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## WinitheGSD (Sep 21, 2008)

Royal Canine is a terrible brand. Your dog is scratching because he has allergies to the food. You should switch. (Haha I sound like the Alltell phone guy on tv!) We have a GSD that scratch her hair out until she was bleeding. She had tummy aches to and bad poops. But when we switched she stopped itching, she had lots of energy, solid poop and a really glossy soft coat. Go to Barfworld.com thats like the best website for raw food. Bones and raw feeding , thats what BARF stands for.


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

Thanks for the advice, and the website. Yep, Bruno does start to bleed sometimes, usually his poop is solid, but his coat is not as thick as a normal GSD. His coat has been the same since we got him, its not thick, and has a rough feel to it. I think that has to do with the fact that he was a stray.

Is the website more about the barf diet, or prey model? I think we will be going the prey model route.


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## ellen366 (Nov 2, 2007)

i have a dog w/serious allergy problems ( he was found w/no hair and secondary bacterial infections; he smelled so bad he was called stinky, lol); anyway, he's on raw and doing incredibly well; no more itchies

make the switch; you won't regret it; and raw really is an easy diet to do; i should have gone raw 20 years ago!!!!!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm sure if you google prey model you'll find a lot of great stuff. I'd say that large difference between BARF and prey model is that prey model doesn't really feed veggies or fruits or anything like that... it is literally that: prey. 

Do you have any idea what your dogs allergies could be? I know some dogs are allergic to chicken. If you do not think (or simply have no idea) you could try starting your dog with whole, raw chicken. It is the easiest way to get the bone to meat ratio right. This is what I did (plus, it's fairly cheap!) 

You will want to avoid any kind of OM (organ meat) for the time being and will want to pull a majority of the skin off of the carcass as the skin can be too rich for some dogs and cause diarrhea (this is more easily done with the carcass is still slightly frozen, trust me!) Get a good pair of kitchen scissors and cut the chicken into parts. You'll probably get between 3 and 4 meals per chicken. You'll want to weigh it out (you should feed between 2 and 3% of your dogs ideal weight, which may or may not be their current weight) so definitely invest in a kitchen scale. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. I have one like this: 


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I know that there are a few members on the board that have dogs with allergies that are on raw so hopefully one will stop by and offer more advice. 

By the way RMB = raw meaty bones and MM = muscle meat. (I didn't know these at first so I figured I'd just throw them out there in case you got confused later while reading.)

Read around the BARF/Raw Feeding section to pick up pointers. Every little bit of knowledge will be priceless. Raw feeding can be great, but it needs to be done correctly... so read, read, read!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Also, check out this website. It's managed by one of the members on the forum:

http://www.rawdogranch.com/


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

I think raw is great, but, I think it is quite misleading to say/think feed raw and all the itches will go away. There are many different reasons for our dogs to itch. One reason among many is food allergy. Find out what food the dog is allergic to and avoid it. The dog would still be allergic to it if it ate it raw. 

I think raw is great for many reasons and yes feeding it can help identify and avoid possible allergens, plus you have much fewer ingredients than in kibble, so that's good, but your dog might not even have food allergies.

Penny has environmental allergies and itches like mad no matter what I feed her. A raw diet was no magic bullet although I wish it had been and for some dogs it could be, but not for all dogs.

Did they scrape for mites or treat for mange?


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## Tiesto (Feb 26, 2009)

hops523.. After spending few days of almost every week at the vet with poop problems, no appetite etc, etc. for the entire 3 months of his life and switching from one brand of food to the other, eventually we decided to try raw diet as a last resort.

And now after almost 2 months I can tell you that switching has been the best decision I could've made. It's like I having a entirely different dog, shiny coat, solid consistent poop. I must admit I was a bit sceptical at first, maybe because of the stigma attatched to raw food, but my dog is extremely healthy and happy.... and we haven't seen the vet for the entire period since switching to raw.

It's very much worth a try.


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

Thanks for the comments, I think we are definatly going to try raw food, but one question I do have is, should we just switch him to raw food cold turkey, and just stop with the kibble? Or should we gradually switch him? Also Im still a little confused on what is exactly on the "menu" for him. Can we feed raw chicken legs, chicken wings, etc?

Haha its funny we were just at the vet today, and they "discourage" raw feeding. Their reason is, it can be harmful to humans if we dont wash our hands after we pick up his poop, and a couple other reasons. I think they just want us to keep buying the royal canine, and the various prescription medications from them.
Thanks


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

You can switch him cold turkey or try doing it gradually. Some people fast their dogs for a day to get all of the kibble out of their system and then just start the dog on raw. I've never really heard of a dog having problems with a cold turkey-style switch. It's up to you. 

As far as what's on the menu, check out this thread. It lists what people feed their dogs every day and will help you get an idea of what is acceptable to feed. (Chicken legs and wings are included.)

I would suggest reading around the B.A.R.F/Raw Feeding section and acquiring as much knowledge as possible before making the switch. Raw can be beneficial but, especially with a dog with potential allergies, you have to be s-l-o-w about adding new proteins to the diet to see if you can figure out what it is your guy is allergic to, if anything. 

Of course, keep asking questions if you're confused! There are many knowledge people here that can offer you advice or, at least, point you in the right directions.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

Hops523~

I would definately check out the link to Rawdogranch that was posted above. Laurie really breaks it down and explains it very well. And she helps you with ratios as well as what to feed and how to prepare it.


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

I really like the RawDogRanch website. It gave me a lot of good info. So Chicken backs, necks, and leg quarters are RMB, Boneless chicken breasts are MM, and Chicken liver is OM. Like the site said, I think this is a good start for us. But would this be a good consistant raw diet for us to feed all the time, or do we have to mix in other things like turkey necks?

I think this weekend I will go out and get a scale, and RMBs. But should I also get the chicken breasts for muscle meat and start feeding that as well? I also wont switch him to raw cold turkey, I will gradually get him on it.

Oh and there was a previous question about if the vet has scraped Brunos skin for mites. Yes, they have, and he doesnt have mites, or any other type of bugs.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Raw is a high commitment but if you want try if for a month or so.

Royal Canine does not have a good rep, lord help the vets. As I promised many times i will not support a specific food on this board. However, send me a personal E Mail and I can provide a suggestion. A dog food still manufactured in the US, for over 100 years, and a phone number in which they will actually discuss the dog's problems with you. Forget E Mail, they are horrible at that.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Yes, start with the RMB and MM. Ditch the OM for now, you'll add that later.

There are a two main ways you can go about this:

1.) Start with some kind of chicken RMB (legs, quarters, etc.) and then MM (breast or ground chicken) and measure each out. What you need to do, then, is figure out the appropriate proportions of RMB to feed versus MM. There are varying recommendations on this so you'll just have to start with one and work with your dog. Too much bone can cause constipation, too little can cause loose stools.

2.) Your second option would be to buy whole chickens and just feed that over a few meals. Depending on your dogs weight, a whole chicken could last between 3 and 5 meals. Sometimes this is easier as it basically guarantees that you'll feed the right bone-to-meat ratio. I started this way.

You'll want to use the chicken RMB and MM diet only for a few weeks, probably. Once your dog has had a week or two of consistently good poops you can add chicken OM. Once again, wait for a week or two of consistently good poops before you add something new. Maybe eliminated the chicken breast as the MM and add in ground beef while maintain your chicken RMBs and OM. Add new proteins slowly. Watch out for any indications for allergies (itchiness) and take not if he seems to be especially itchy when you add a certain new item and remember to avoid that! 

Variety is _extremely_ important to a raw diet. Your dog will not be able to live heathily on a raw diet of just chicken alone. Chicken is the main staple of Jerzey's diet and is often her RMB since it is the cheapest but buy anything you possibly can... beef, turkey, venison, lamb, bison, pork, etc. These don't have to necessarily be part of the diet every day or every week but you need to add more than just chicken. Each type of meat has different vitamins, nutrients, etc that it adds to the dogs diet so it's important to get as much in there as possible.

You can even try to raid the freezers of your neighbors, friends, and family and try to grab any unwanted, old, or freezer burned meat. To use picky humans it may taste weird, but to the dog it's dinner! 

I would suggest investing in an additional freezer (craigslist, freecycle) because buying in bulk when things are on sale will make your life SO MUCH EASIER. I'm currently trying (desperately, might I add) to find an additional freezer that I can afford on a college student's budget because I just don't have room for food for my, my two roommates and the dog... not without going to the grocery store every two weeks or so... and Jerzey only eats raw once a day! 

I hope that this will help some.







If you have any more questions I'll do my best to answer... I'm fairly new to raw too so a lot of my knowledge is pretty basic but I help when I can. 

Good luck!


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

Wow thanks for all that. Im getting a lot of great info. Ive also been looking around the raw feeding section to learn more.

This morning I fed Bruno his usual kibble, but I just picked up some chicken legs, boneless chicken breast, and a scale. Im not sure if I should just give him only raw tonight, and then kibble again tomorrow morning. So he would get raw at night, and kibble in the morning, until I completely switch him to raw. And if I do that should I mix the chicken breast, and the chicken legs and serve them both at the same time?


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I serve kibble in the morning and a full raw meal at night. If you're already feeding your dog just two meals a day I would probably continue to do so and feed kibble as one meal and raw as another. If your pup gets 3 meals you can put the chicken breast as one meal and the chicken legs as another. But, like I said, if your pup is already eating two meals just stick with that since it's what he's used to.

What you need to decide now is what percentage of RMB vs MM you want to feed. There are many varying opinions, as I'm sure you've noticed so just pick one and go for it! Generally, if your pup is having trouble pooping or is constipated that equals too much bone so you should add MM. If your pup has loose/runny poops that generally means too much MM so you'll want to up the bone amount. It may take a while to figure out the perfect ratio for your dog, or it might not really matter! Each dog is so different you'll really just have to wait and see how your dog does.

If you're not good at math and can't figure out what amount (in oz) you should be feeding your dog I have this easy excel program that I found on the forum. It allow you to enter your dogs ideal weight, what percent of it's body weight you want to feed (I would suggest 1.5%) and then what percent of MM vs. RMB vs. OM you want to feed and it'll calculate how much to feed in oz of each! I'm awful at math so it made it SO much easier for me to just get that initial step out of the way. If you'd like it just PM me your email address and I'll send it to you. 

Also, at first your puppy may have no freakin' _clue_ what to do with the food you put in front of him. I actually held the chicken breast I fed Jerzey and praised her when she went for it and started eating it. Obviously, she learned pretty quickly that it was food and, once she realized that, she's never had a problem. Just realize that it's okay if your puppy doesn't take to it right away... a lot of dog foods have a stronger (and much different) smell than raw meat... Bruno just needs to learn that it's food.


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

Based on your reply, the other replies Ive got, and some more reading, I think Ive figured out my plan.

So for awhile I'll feed him his kibble in the morning, and the raw in the evening. Bruno is about 75 lbs right now, and 2% of his body weight is 1.5 lbs which is 24 oz. So if I were to feed him raw at both feedings thats how much I would feed him the whole day. But since Im feeding him raw only in the evening, then I figure Ill give him half of that, so 12 oz. Im suppose to feed him more RMB than MM, so I guess 8 oz of chicken leg, and 4 oz of chicken breast. Haha if anyone followed that, does it sound about right?

I actually messed up the math earlier. I fed him about an hour ago and only gave him 8 oz total. I gave him 5 oz of chicken leg, and 3 oz of chicken breast. Should I give him an extra 4 oz now, or is it too late?

Haha while I was cutting the skin off the leg I was thinking he wouldnt eat the food offered. When I was ready to give it to him, I took the chicken breast and he actually jumped for it. I put the rest of the food down, and he went to town on it no problems.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sorry, didn't reread all the posts, but why are you removing the skin from the chix? It does have benefits, too!


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

I thought that it was pretty much just fat, and I read from a few sources that its a good idea to remove the skin. Does anyone think I should feed him the extra 4 oz?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Go ahead, 4 oz won't hurt!


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

Haha ok thank you, I wasnt too sure.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlSorry, didn't reread all the posts, but why are you removing the skin from the chix? It does have benefits, too!


When I first started Jerzey on raw someone suggested that I remove the chicken skin at the beginning because it can be too rich for some dogs and cause diarrhea so I believe that I suggested to remove it at first.


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

I cant wait till Bruno's next feeding, I wanted to feed him raw this morning, but I had to hold back. I got really lucky today, I found an ad for a grocery store that has chicken leg quarters for 66 cents an lb! I definatly have to stock up. The leg quarters are pretty big, can I cut them in half?

This is a random question but awhile ago I was looking through this forum and someone posted before and after pictures of feeding their dog a raw diet, and the change was pretty amazing. I was wondering if anyone has seen that post, I havent been able to find it.
Thanks


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: hops523I cant wait till Bruno's next feeding, I wanted to feed him raw this morning, but I had to hold back.


Soo exciting! I can't wait to hear how it goes!!











> Originally Posted By: hops523I got really lucky today, I found an ad for a grocery store that has chicken leg quarters for 66 cents an lb! I definatly have to stock up. The leg quarters are pretty big, can I cut them in half?


You should be able to cut them at the joint, like where what we could consider to be a "chicken leg" would begin... I guess at the knee part? Get a good pair of scissors and you should be able to cut them down... you might have to thaw them out first. I'm not really sure. 

In my opinion, quarters seem to have enough meat on them that I will actually feed them as a meal in and of themselves if they weight enough. But Jerzey's system also doesn't require a strict bone to meat ratio as her poops seem to turn out fine either way! I just throw a quarter on the scale, add her .9 oz of OM and add MM to get the weight up to the 19 oz she eats each meal. Like I said, sometimes she just gets a quarter and liver for dinner... other times she gets nearly as much RMB as MM. I buy quarters as her RMB since they're usually the cheapest so how her meals turn out all depends on the weight of each individual quarter. Some dogs require stricter measuring... it shouldn't be too long before you figure out _your_ dog perfect ratio. What's important is balance over time, not necessarily the perfect balance each meal. 

Since you already have legs I would start with those since it's a smaller bone and I think would be easier for your dog to get through the first time around. But stock up on those quarters while you can!! That's a great price! (This is where an extra freezer is great! Ah, I want one!!)



> Originally Posted By: hops523This is a random question but awhile ago I was looking through this forum and someone posted before and after pictures of feeding their dog a raw diet, and the change was pretty amazing. I was wondering if anyone has seen that post, I havent been able to find it.
> Thanks


I think you're talking about Patti's dog, Grimm. You know what's funny... it was those _same exact pictures_ that basically made up my mind about switching to raw. The change was unbelievable! I, also, tried to find them a while ago to show John in order to convince him that a raw diet was worth looking in to but I couldn't find them either!


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

Haha yeah now I understand why everyone says they need an extra freezer.

Alright, thats what I was thinking of doing, cutting them at the leg and weighing them. I just wasnt 100% sure if that was ok though.

Thank you so much for that name, Im going to try and search and see if I find it. Awhile ago I showed my buddy(who has an American Bulldog) that thread, and ever since then we've both discussed feeding raw. I decided I'll be the first one to try it, and see how it goes.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: hops523Thank you so much for that name, Im going to try and search and see if I find it.


I can't remember Patti's forum name... I'll have to see if I can find it because that would make your search much easier.



> Originally Posted By: hops523Awhile ago I showed my buddy(who has an American Bulldog) that thread, and ever since then we've both discussed feeding raw. I decided I'll be the first one to try it, and see how it goes.


That sounds like my mom and me!







I'm trying to convince her to at least feed it once in a while when she gets her mini Australian puppy. My dad and her are convinced that the older dogs (they're around 9 and 10 years old) are too old to handle a change in diet... esp. because any time they eat someone other than their dog food they get the runs.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: hops523Thank you so much for that name, Im going to try and search and see if I find it.
> ...


Oh, found it! It's Brightelf


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## hops523 (Nov 23, 2008)

Alright cool thanks. I will try and find it.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=739603&page=38#Post739603


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

There was one that was even more convincing than that a while ago? I'm sure it was on this board.think the dog was a rescue and you could hardly tell it was a GSD.they put the dog on raw diet and in a few months it look great.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: harlanr3There was one that was even more convincing than that a while ago? I'm sure it was on this board.think the dog was a rescue and you could hardly tell it was a GSD.they put the dog on raw diet and in a few months it look great.


I know! Ah, but I can't find it.







I think it had just been posted on someone else's topic so it would be next to impossible to find... unless you just happened to get lucky.


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