# Any advice appreciated



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I spoke to a local vet yesterday but I need to do my own research and I would like to get some input from forum members. I have a few questions.

I must get Shadow vaccinated for rabies, and I need to know the safest way to proceed. Titers are not acceptable apparently. Without the vaccine apparently the law states that at AC's discretion she could be euthanized rather then quarantined so I have no wiggle room here at all. I was banking on tittering.
Lepto vaccine was strongly recommended for the very simple reason that it is prevalent in the area and by the time it is diagnosed kidney damage is almost certain.
He recommended Advantix for fleas and ticks as it also helps with flies and mosquitoes apparently. Someone else recommended Bravecto. I know nothing about either so any input would be appreciated.


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## GSDHAUS (Feb 24, 2013)

Is this for a puppy, or an adult? And what is the age? What are your concerns with regards to the vaccinations?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDHAUS said:


> Is this for a puppy, or an adult? And what is the age? What are your concerns with regards to the vaccinations?



Shadow is 8 years old and has a laundry list of health issues. She has not been vaccinated since she was 6 months old due to a nasty reaction, likely to the rabies and certainly caused by giving all at once.


She has never been on flea or tick prevention as it was not needed.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Advantix doesn't work anymore in some areas. I got a flea infestation in FL while using Advantix. When we moved here, I was finding engorged ticks regularly while applying Advantix every 3 weeks. Vectra 3d works a little better.

I hear Bravecto works well and I have a boarder who uses it and I have never found a living tick on her. I have found tiny dead ones, it appears to effectively kill them as soon as they bite. However, I also know that dog like mine had to be treated for Anaplasmosis so nothing is perfect. 

I am using seresto collars...they aren't 100% either.

Do the vaccines separately...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I would do the rabies and lepto separate. Advantix works very well in my area. Used advantage now advantix for over 20 years and my mom had to no issues with it at all. It is also great keeping mosquitoes to help prevent heartworm. We have feral cats that I’m sure are flea infested and roam in the property and to s of wildlife - deer, fox wild turkeys that visit. Frontline stopped working for us so glad they came out with advantix - ask people who live your area it seems to be dependAnt upon certain regions which work.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Separate the vaccinations. I do
Core vaccines : Distemper/parvo
Lepto - separately if needed in your area. This is the one most dogs will react to.
Rabies - separated by 2 weeks.

If Shadow had a lepto vaccine, that is probably the one that caused the reaction. It causes reactions in small dogs and in puppies.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I like Bravecto where I live. Advantix II did nothing, and Seresto collars didn't work for me either. I actually returned them for a refund. Vet recommended Simpartica, as it is supposed to kill the ticks faster? I haven't tried it yet. With this snow I hope the ticks are off to wherever they spend the winter.

If you need to give rabies, make sure the vet knows about the reaction, maybe pre-dose with Benedryl? (ask the vet). 

Lepto, you can by at Tractor Supply and give yourself on your own schedule. That's what I do.

I give all vaccines except rabies myself. The rabies must be given "under supervision" of a vet. I go to a walk in clinice because it saves me at least $50, but if you are concerned about a reaction, then get it done at a vet, and stick around for a few hours, if you can, to make sure the adverse reaction can be dealt with if needed.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Advantix doesn't work anymore in some areas. I got a flea infestation in FL while using Advantix. When we moved here, I was finding engorged ticks regularly while applying Advantix every 3 weeks. Vectra 3d works a little better.
> 
> I hear Bravecto works well and I have a boarder who uses it and I have never found a living tick on her. I have found tiny dead ones, it appears to effectively kill them as soon as they bite. However, I also know that dog like mine had to be treated for Anaplasmosis so nothing is perfect.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of a collar for the very simple reason that if she has a reaction to it I can simply remove the collar, but I keep getting told they don't work! 



Jenny720 said:


> I would do the rabies and lepto separate. Advantix works very well in my area. Used advantage now advantix for over 20 years and my mom had to no issues with it at all. It is also great keeping mosquitoes to help prevent heartworm.


We have no issues with heartworm here, and seemingly not really in most parts of Canada. However I have been warned that mosquitoes and black flies are brutal in this area so anything that deters them would be a bonus.

Any vaccines will definitely be given separately. I will never make that mistake again.


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## GSDHAUS (Feb 24, 2013)

Specifically regarding the Rabies.... Are you using the same veterinarian that gave her the initial vaccination with the issue? If yes, I am sure this is documented - what is your vets take on the risk factors for her being vaccinated again? Were other vaccinations given at that time? 



If it is not the same vet, do they have all of her records, so that they can properly evaluate her individual situation? 



If there was a serious problem at the initial vaccination, I would hesitate to vaccinate again (depending on the severity of what happened), if it would cause risk to her life. That being said, Rabies is no joke... and accidents happen in places we never expect.


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## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

I would ask more people about titers. It depends on who you talk to it appears. I have a guy that I run into all the time on our walks. He has a lab with a ton of medical issues. I told him to titer and stop vaxing. He said he called and the city won't accept titers. I thought they changed the laws recently, so I called in and talked to someone else. They said, no problem!

Mine had an allergic reaction like yours from her booster shot. I really wanted to titer first, but the vet kept pushing until I gave in. I titered her a few weeks later and she was fully covered, so I didn't have to do her next booster. I never went back to that vet.

From the reading I have done, and the experience I have had over the years just doing titers, antibodies don't just go away. I have never had a titer come back low. They have always been well above what was needed to protect the animal.

If yours is already having problems, I would fight it until I found a solution.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Separate the vaccinations. I do
> Core vaccines : Distemper/parvo
> Lepto - separately if needed in your area. This is the one most dogs will react to.
> Rabies - separated by 2 weeks.
> ...


Interesting. 

I was told that her reaction was almost certainly caused by the rabies. We went through several weeks/months of her growling and snapping at shadows, lunging at things that weren't there, inability to visually identify objects, fear of lights/reflections. At one point we thought she was going blind. The reaction seems to have started on a small scale with the second puppy vacs but blew up following her rabies/6 month puppy shot. No one ever mentioned the lepto vaccine as suspect.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Who told you that it was the rabies? Or that it was vaccine related vs genetic nerviness?

Lepto has a high rate of reactions. My vet will not give it to small dogs or puppies. The reaction is typically anaphylactic shock.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Custom Billet said:


> I would ask more people about titers. It depends on who you talk to it appears. I have a guy that I run into all the time on our walks. He has a lab with a ton of medical issues. I told him to titer and stop vaxing. He said he called and the city won't accept titers. I thought they changed the laws recently, so I called in and talked to someone else. They said, no problem!
> 
> Mine had an allergic reaction like yours from her booster shot. I really wanted to titer first, but the vet kept pushing until I gave in. I titered her a few weeks later and she was fully covered, so I didn't have to do her next booster. I never went back to that vet.
> 
> ...



Titers DO come back low or no coverage. My older dog came back with zero for distemper/parvo, and this is after being vaccinated regularly most of her life. I did titer and not vax for a few years when she was young. So I know she's not one who just doesn't get coverage from vaccines. Then she was vaccinated regularly for like 8 or 9 years and I titered her last year thinking no way she would need anything but she had nothing for distemper/parvo.

My 3 1/2 year old dog I titered last year and his coverage was good for distemper parvo. This year Parvo good but distemper low, right on the line of re-vaccinate.

And these titers have been sent out to more than one place so I know it's not just one lab. Hers went to hemopet and his went to Cornell I think, but i'm not positive.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Titers DO come back low or no coverage. My older dog came back with zero for distemper/parvo, and this is after being vaccinated regularly most of her life. I did titer and not vax for a few years when she was young. So I know she's not one who just doesn't get coverage from vaccines. Then she was vaccinated regularly for like 8 or 9 years and I titered her last year thinking no way she would need anything but she had nothing for distemper/parvo.
> 
> My 3 1/2 year old dog I titered last year and his coverage was good for distemper parvo. This year Parvo good but distemper low, right on the line of re-vaccinate.
> 
> And these titers have been sent out to more than one place so I know it's not just one lab. Hers went to hemopet and his went to Cornell I think, but i'm not positive.



I have read of dogs that can not produce immunity to rabies. It's a genetic thing. I wish I could remember where I read that. Seger had nothing for Parvo when I titered at 1 year. I kept thinking it was distemper that happened with but I checked the paperwork last week. Parvo....and I hauled him all over the country side training with zero immunity for Parvo.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Who told you that it was the rabies? Or that it was vaccine related vs genetic nerviness?
> 
> Lepto has a high rate of reactions. My vet will not give it to small dogs or puppies. The reaction is typically anaphylactic shock.


She was treated by a holistic vet following the onset of symptoms. At 6 weeks old Shadow was a totally normal puppy, conquer the world take no prisoners attitude. Following her last vacs we saw a change with about a day. We know she had some fear issues, but the change was sudden and dramatic. Within days she was nearly unmanageable and air snapping at a shadow on the wall goes beyond genetic nerviness. 


An extremely small percentage of dogs have been known to display symptoms like this following rabies vacs. The suspicion I believe was bad vaccines, and it is not something anyone is ever warned about. I had to really dig to find any info that was credible.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> I have read of dogs that can not produce immunity to rabies. It's a genetic thing. I wish I could remember where I read that. Seger had nothing for Parvo when I titered at 1 year. I kept thinking it was distemper that happened with but I checked the paperwork last week. Parvo....and I hauled him all over the country side training with zero immunity for Parvo.


I've never titered for rabies. I just don't mess around with that one. I do whatever the law says I should do, because I need it for dog licenses and running a dog business I am no risking my dogs not following the rules.

But if dogs couldn't produce immunity to rabies then the vaccine would not work, and obviously it does?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> But if dogs couldn't produce immunity to rabies then the vaccine would not work, and obviously it does?


No. It doesn't work. The dog can not produce an immunity to rabies no matter how many times it's vaccinated. 

Imagine that, dogs that are not immune to rabies but can't produce an immunity thru vaccination. That's like the canine version of the Walking Dead.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Since Baron had a mild reaction (just fatigue and muscle soreness) when he was a puppy and he got his rabies vaccine, this year before it was time for his vaccines, I did research any preventive measures. I did give him the homeopathic remedy Lyssinum 30C as discussed here: https://www.elixirs.com/products.cfm?productcode=S94W. I also give him one for the DAPP/parvo https://www.elixirs.com/products.cfm?productcode=P2. He had no reactions this time. So that maybe something you may want to consider. Homeopathic remedies have no side affects, so it can't hurt to try it.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I had just come across this article on fb
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/fd...neurologic-risks-associated-with-isoxazolines


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The risk with titers for rabies is that this is a human health disease, and is always deadly, and unlike distemper or parvo is regulated very strongly by some powerful agencies. I don't know the rules in Canada, but unless I had some sort of signed document stating titers are acceptable, from an official individual, I would not take any chances. Catastrophe is very possible, through no fault of the dog or human.


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## Quinnsmom (Dec 27, 2008)

Ask your vet if the 1-year vaccine for rabies is still available. My daughter used it on her dog and cats for several years because it did not contain thimerosol as a preservative. That may not be the case now but it is worth an ask. There may also be protocols to follow before vaccination, as Mary Beth said, to minimize reactions.
As far as tick and mosquito protection, I would take Advantix over Bravecto. It has a longer track record, lasts only one month and is topical so can be washed off if there is a reaction. Once Bravecto is ingested it is on board for 3 months. As Jenny 720 said, there is an additional FDA warning out about Bravecto and other drugs in that class. You will need some kind of fly repellant come spring and summer as the black flies and deer flies in your new location are vicious and can take chunks right out of unprotected skin. Maybe some of the local dog owners can give you tips on what helps.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thank you all for the info. The rabies vaccine is not negotiable nor will I play with it since the go to in this area is to euthanize any dog immediately that is questionable. I am highly protective of my dogs and the chances of Shadow getting away from me are really slim but crap happens and I can't take that chance. 
So next week will be rabies and then sometime before spring Lepto. 
I had debated a flea/tick collar, thinking that if there was a reaction it is quick and easy to take a collar off. The reviews are pretty poor though. I guess we will go with the Advantix, but not worried about that just yet.
I used to use a product on the horses called FlyX that was awesome for fly and mosquito control but I can't find any info on if it's safe for dogs or even still available.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

One last thing. Ontario Regulation 567/90 also allows a legal waiver for the rabies vaccination. It states “The owner or person having the care and custody of an animal that is in or has a physical condition that precludes the safe immunization or re-immunization of the animal against rabies is exempt from the requirement of this Regulation where (a) a statement of exemption is issued by a veterinarian with respect to the animal that sets out the reason why the animal cannot be immunized or re-immunized; and (b) the animal is controlled in such a manner as to preclude its being exposed to rabies.”


^^^
Rabies Law in Ontario | SIRIUS DOG


http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/...s_Prevention_and_Control_Protocol_2018_en.pdf
*Risk assessment 




*5) The board of health shall conduct a risk assessment on all individuals with potential rabies exposures to determine the required actions. A recommendation regarding the need for PEP, based on the outcome of the risk assessment, shall be communicated to the attending healthcare provider. The attending healthcare provider ultimately decides whether PEP will be administered. The risk assessment shall include consideration of: a) Type of exposure (i.e., bite, non-bite, bat); 


b) The anatomical location of the exposure; 


c) The risk of rabies in the animal species involved; 


　


*

Rabies Prevention and Control Protocol, 2018 


*



7 




d) The presence of rabies in the area where the incident occurred; 


e) Risk of rabies exposure in the implicated animal (travel history, exposure to wildlife/other domestic animals of unknown rabies status, etc.) 


f) The behaviour and health status of the implicated animal; 


g) Exposure circumstances (i.e., provoked or unprovoked exposure); and 


h) Rabies immunization status of the animalor the animal’s mother, if the animal is a puppy or kitten younger than three months of age. 


6) In situations where the risk assessment leads to a recommendation for the administration of PEP, and the healthcare provider has decided to administer PEP, the following additional information shall also be collected from the exposed individual in order to inform appropriate PEP dose and schedule recommendations: a) Residency status in Ontario; 


b) Weight; 


c) Rabies immunization status, including date of last immunization, type of vaccine used (human diploid vaccine, purified chick embryo cell vaccine, or other), information on compliance with vaccine administration schedules, *and/or any rabies antibody titre levels available; and *




d) Immunocompetency - Refer to Part 3 of the _Canadian Immunization Guide _for an overview of which individuals are considered immunocompromised.6




https://www.ovma.org/assets/1/6/OVMA_Rabies_Public_QA1.pdf





*Q2: Does my pet have to be vaccinated against rabies? *


*A: *[FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]Yes. Dogs and cats over 3 months of age must have either a current Certificate of Vaccination or a current Statement of Exemption issued by a veterinarian for that animal. Unvaccinated animals are a risk to human health, and owners of unvaccinated animals can be subject to fines of over $90 per animal [/FONT]
[/FONT]


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bats and racoons are the big offenders in this area, even leashed/fenced she could be exposed. The exemption protects me from a fine, but does not protect her if she is ever picked up or involved in a reported altercation.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

For repelling mosquitoes and flies, it might be worth trying the Wondercide cedar-oil based dog spray to see how it works. I really like the smell of it -- esp. the lemongrass one. Before you invest in a big bottle, you might order one of their $10 sampler packs of different scents. The downside of it is it doesn't last, so you have to reapply every time the dog goes out. It's effective, but probably not 100% -- it likely will keep you and her both more comfortable though. 



My dad has had great luck with Bayer's Seresto collar. He's in his 90s and too old to fool with topicals, so the collar is very convenient because it's so long lasting.


For RX meds, I like NexGard very much for flea and tick control. Whenever the rescue pulls a tick-covered dog out of a shelter, our vet doses the dog with a NexGard because it's so effective on ticks. It's chew that they eat for monthly protection -- pricey, but it works. Bravecto is a better deal because you get three months of protection out of each one. 



Rabies boosters for seniors is SUCH a hard call. My vet and I went back and forth on this with my last oldster in his later years, and he was supportive of either decision -- warning me of the local consequences for not doing it, but sympathetic to feeling like enough is enough at that age. It probably depends on the dog -- does it interact with people regularly? It's not really the bites that scare me, as my dogs don't bite people, but the turning the head quickly with an open mouth and accidentally dragging a tooth over an arm they didn't know was there, or accidentally scratching someone when batting them with a paw asking for a head rub or ball throw. The stupid accidental stuff counts too, unfortunately.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Magwart said:


> For repelling mosquitoes and flies, it might be worth trying the *Wondercide cedar-oil *based dog spray to see how it works. I really like the smell of it -- esp. the lemongrass one. Before you invest in a big bottle, you might order one of their $10 sampler packs of different scents. The downside of it is it doesn't last, so you have to reapply every time the dog goes out. It's effective, but probably not 100% -- it likely will keep you and her both more comfortable though.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not really the bites that scare me, as my dogs don't bite people, but the turning the head quickly with an open mouth and accidentally dragging a tooth over an arm they didn't know was there, or accidentally scratching someone when batting them with a paw asking for a head rub or ball throw. * The stupid accidental stuff counts too, unfortunately*.



Wondercide and other similar companies are not allowed in Canada (dumb), In 2013 I was able to order, by 2016. Nope. Just checked this week and is still on their no shipment list


While the states have some very stringent laws and fears...here, not so much....remember when G and I were attacked pit bull thread (masquerading as Dogo...)...Public health examined dog from comfort of his vehicle, they couldn't produce vaccine records so went and got dog rabies shot....Good Enough!


Even says in the links I provided, if dog meets criteria of what is considered allowed (by a vet) then, the worst that can happen really is at home quarantine for 10-14 days...unless never vx then up to 6 months...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GatorBytes said:


> Even says in the links I provided, if dog meets criteria of what is considered allowed (by a vet) then, the worst that can happen really is at home quarantine for 10-14 days...unless never vx then up to 6 months...


Right. Dependant on recommendations. Around here I was forewarned, they will shot first ask questions later. So vax it is. 
I would have preferred not but I won't play with it.
Not to mention that bats and raccoons get into everywhere, so the risk is high. And on a property? Out in the woods her risk goes up significantly. In Alberta with no documented cases in over 30 years it was a no brainer. No vax. Here with 149 cases in 2017, knowing she will be on a property with exposure to uncontrolled wildlife, she gets vaccinated. (Incidentally almost all near your area.) 
It is in part to protect my dog and in part to aid in the control of a deadly virus that is capable of cross-species transmission.


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## Quinnsmom (Dec 27, 2008)

Not sure that the Seresto collar is available in Canada either. I can't find a Canadian retailer after a bit of googling. A friend says her relatives in Florida swear by it for fleas and ticks there but she has never been able to source it in Canada. Contacting Bayer would be the way to go.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I’ve found the pills to be the only thing that really works for fleas, such as Comfortis or Trifexis. However the way it works is it essentially poisons the dogs blood, so that whenever a flea or tick bites it instantly kills them. It’s good for a month so it will wipe out the entire cycle. That being said I only give it when they actually have fleas. 

I’ve tried everything else from collars, sprays, dips, powders, topicals, you name it.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Wondercide and other similar companies are not allowed in Canada (dumb), In 2013 I was able to order, by 2016. Nope. Just checked this week and is still on their no shipment list.



Hm. Does Canada allow distribution of pure cedar EO? If so, I guess you could just mix up a spray bottle diluting that plus whatever other EOs you want.



One tip: I would avoid The Honest Company's EO-based repellent though, if that happens to be available--it doesn't work worth a hoot. I tried a can of it thinking it would likely be similar to Wondercide. It smells lovely, but the mosquitoes weren't bothered by it all.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Since you will be giving the Rabies vax, request one that doesn't contain mercury or aluminum as/or in the adjuvant. I was on the fence about posting this link but it does have a lot of info and the references at the end can also be checked for more info. Page three talks about adjuvants mercury and aluminum. It s just one case study but the source is good and it is a recent documented one. I was on the fence because the dogs reaction was severe but the info is good. Your vet should be able to provide the specific Rabies vax prior to the appt so you can verify with your own research.

https://scientificliterature.org/Vaccines/Vaccines-17-111.pdf

Also, If you can get documentation concerning Shadow's adverse event along with the vets note, I would get it and have it on hand even though you are going to vaccinate. It may prove to be of value at some point, also, I would opt for the three yr vax. From what I have read, there is no efficacy difference between the 1yr and 3yr. It is just the manufacturers choice of instruction and labeling.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Some vet clinics may also want a dog with history of vax reaction to be dropped off for vax and stay for while after the injection, in case there's any adverse response. They sometimes even administer Benadryl _before _the vax to tamp down the allergic response.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Hm. Does Canada allow distribution of pure cedar EO? If so, I guess you could just mix up a spray bottle diluting that plus whatever other EOs you want.
> 
> 
> 
> One tip: I would avoid The Honest Company's EO-based repellent though, if that happens to be available--it doesn't work worth a hoot. I tried a can of it thinking it would likely be similar to Wondercide. It smells lovely, but the mosquitoes weren't bothered by it all.


I know I can buy essential oils here, I was debating the whole cedar oil thing already. Any clue what the dilution needs to be? I also will be growing lavender so I may experiment with that down the road.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Dilution on cedar oil? 100%. As in just don't. 



Living among juniper myself, I would not use cedar oil on a dog. I wish I could remember the citation where I came across that cedar chips put in dog beds were a really rotten idea because dogs are pretty sensitive to cedar (juniper is a cedar. it is very "odorific" it is very resin loaded it is highly flamable.) I just pulled out my clove of garlic - not as a flea/tick repellent but to ward off the idea of cedar. 



In Arkansas I did mix up some essential oils to use on a pound dog before I took him home. He had been covered with fleas. The oils took care of it. Pretty sure I got the recipe from WDJ.


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## Dionne2u (Nov 5, 2018)

Shots and insect repellent separate, followed by good liver and kidney cleanse. Do the rabies because you kinda got to if taking her places and the obvious reason. Lepto, read up on that first. I'll never give it again, my poor old boys nose as dripped since i gave it and honestly unless you know what strain she might come into contact with it's useless. 

I myself am looking for a new udea for biting insect control on my dogs. Right now i use advantix but it seems to make my older dog kinda sick. I've tried the collars but they left a huge welp on my little poodle so i won't do that anymore. 

Hope you get the answers you are looking for!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

*My $0.02*



Sabis mom said:


> (The vet) recommended Advantix for fleas and ticks as it also helps with flies and mosquitoes apparently. Someone else recommended Bravecto. I know nothing about either so any input would be appreciated.


I had Boon on Nexguard for fleas and ticks pretty early. Seemed to be working since we had no problems with either in the house.

Well.

That was in late WINTER. Come spring, OMG THE TICKS! I had them on me all the time. Still got spots from tick bites. Husband got Lyme (was treated quickly though.) Dog walker we knew recommended a Seresto collar, and that was what kept the ticks off. Given the latest info about ingestable flea/tick meds and neurological problems I feel better going with the collar.

Having said that, I don't quibble over rabies vaccines (mercury issues, I know) because of all the possums and raccoons and foxes around here. Worse (as you brought up) AC could choose to euthanize my dog if there was doubt about his vaccinations.


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