# 15 mo GSD...Vet says ADVANCED HD, thoughts?



## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

Tooks Sadie in for her prelim hip xrays...vet said ADVANCED HD and that he would decide within 6 mos to either to full hip replacement or PTS...
I am devastated and at a loss for words
Wanted some of your thoughts and opinions
I am submitting to OFA tomorrow and wait for their evaluation as well...


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Yeah, that's not good. The positioning is good so can't say its the positioning. Those hips don't look good at all. Getting a hip replacement, the dog can live a normal active healthy life.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

HD is not a death sentence. Explore the FHO option. Those x-rays are good quality and yes, they do look quite poor. Not the worst I've seen by any stretch, though.
If your dog is active, able to walk, and is not in significant pain there is no reason to PTS.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Why did he say pts? Is your dog in major pain right now? What tipped you off to have them X-rayed?


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

robk said:


> Why did he say pts? Is your dog in major pain right now? What tipped you off to have them X-rayed?


She seems to be in ZERO pain...runs, jumps, plays, etc. with no signs of pain. I decided to get X-rays because I heard you can do preliminary ones and submit to OFA to obtain and idea of what may be going on with hips. I had talked to a breeder (jean Schrader) who said she requires X-rays at 12-15 mos and 20-24 mos if you want to breed a pup your purchase from her. Essentially I just wanted to know if there was anything out of the ordinary. I can assure you I had no idea what the vet would say today....I just burst into tears, I can't imagine...
I'm definitely looking into other opinions in the matter before I do anything rash, but I know right now that I can't afford hip replacement surgery ($10K?) I wish I could, and I'll do more research after the initial shock of today wears off
I feel like its my fault somehow and that's making it harder...I wish today didn't happen and my Sadie was ok 


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Make sure you send those X-rays to the breeder. She will want to know. She has been on here and seems very knowledgable about Hips and her lines in general.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Put to sleep over those hips?? I don't think so. I see the HD, but they're not horrible. I would not call these hips severe.

What supplements is she on if any? How's her weight? What kind of exercise do you do with her?


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

robk said:


> Make sure you send those X-rays to the breeder. She will want to know. She has been on here and seems very knowledgable about Hips and her lines in general.


I apologize, Jean was not the breeder of Sadie. Jean was someone I have spoken with about purchasing a puppy from and that is how I learned of her requirements....I have nothing negative to say about her, she seems very knowledgable and kind...
The breeder I purchased Sadie from is an irresponsible jerk. I could send these to him all day and he would never own up to any fault of his breeding program...lesson learned unfortunately...


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Put to sleep over those hips?? I don't think so. I see the HD, but they're not horrible. I would not call these hips severe.
> 
> What supplements is she on if any? How's her weight? What kind of exercise do you do with her?


She is 78 lbs and from what the vet said today great health..
She and I were working on her obedience training (beginner) so every evening I would practice heeling, "watch me", recall and sit stays. She is mostly and outside dog and plays regularly with our other dogs running and things.
We also play fetch pretty frequently or tug-of-war...it recently has been so hot we have cut back on those. Occasional tug of war in the house where it is cooler. We had been going to private training classes that were about an hour in length but Sadie recently fractured a metacarpal in her front foot and we had to let her heal before resuming any major activity.
She eats royal canin german shepherd brand, mixed with a supplement called Platinum that my regular vet gave me. We also mix coconut oil into her food on a regular basis. We alternate raw egg, raw meats, etc. into her feeding a couple times a week.
The vet told me today he didn't suspect that I had done anything to essentially increase the HD or however that should be said, but I still feel like its my fault.
I purchased her a flirt pole the other day and it arrived today...I was so excited to play with her and now I'm almost afraid to hurt her or make anything worse 


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I'd research supplements specifically for HD dogs before you go the surgery route if she's not in any pain. Glucosamine, vitamin c, fish oils, etc.

How tall is she at the withers? Is she a tall girl? 78 pounds is pretty big for a female, but not overweight. Keeping her thin is going to be very important. You don't want those hips supporting more weight than they need to.

You're going to need to be careful about the exercise she does. No jumping. Low impact type exercising - swimming, walking, no running long distances on hard surfaces. 

Speak to your breeder. I don't know her, but she seems to be very knowledgeable. I'm sure she can point you in the right direction since your vet hasn't.


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## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

K.Creek just want to say how sorry I'm for Sadie. This is not your fault, so please do not beat yourself up. Hope you can find some solution for your girl.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would talk with an ortho vet to come up with a plan of action. A kit if regular vets are more doom and gloom than the ortho folks.

Cyra was comparable (worse but she was three for first shots) and never seemed to suffer with them until she started getting stiff around 9 and we started on NSAIDS -the ortho vet was not one to rush into surgery and felt many dogs with bad hips can have a good quality of life with a little common sense management.

Always gave glucosamine and kept her lean and exercised. 

I am sorry though - You did not "do it" - so please don't beat yourself up.


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

Thank you all for the responses..I will definitely look into some HD specific supplements 
She is 24" at her withers and approx 22.5" at her hips...I can easily feel her ribs and she has a nice waistline...I would say she is pretty lean.
I will definitely be more careful with her exercise and play time with the other dogs
Once agin thank you all for your encouragement and suggestions 


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

To me her right hip (the one on the left side of the xray) looks worse than the other side. PLUS the positioning is ok, but not great and that can make a difference too. 

http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

And if she is showing NO issues and or pain I wouldn't panic at all. I've heard of some top dogs in agility having terrible x-rays. Seems like keeping our dogs fit, lean, and appropriately muscled can make a huge difference to having them with long healthy lives.

*MAKE SURE YOUR BREEDER gets the x-rays*, probably in your puppy warranty/agreement anyways but make sure you do get the information to them so they consider that info for repeat breedings (or not) as well as notifying the littermates for a heads up.

Hip Dysplasia In Dogs



> How Can I Tell If My Dog Is In Pain?
> 
> *We have long known that the degree of pathology we see in x-rays does not necessarily tell us how much pain your pet is experiencing.* Some dogs have very dramatic x-rays but appear to be pain-free while others suffer greatly when x-rays show only minor hip changes. Just as with people, the sensation of pain varies among individuals. You, rather than your veterinarian, are in the best position to decide whether your pet is in pain and if it needs pain control medications. (pet owners in Europe have another option, Traditional Radio-Therapy, that you can read about here)


More good info/options --> Hip Dysplasia in Dogs - Clivir - How to Lessons, Tips & Tutorials

There is NO WAY those x-rays, and a dog that is in NO pain should be even considered to be put to sleep.... so I'd forget about that as an option and look at all the other GOOD options you can do to manage this and help. 

Another great site with REALLY bad xrays http://veterinaryreferralsurgery.com/article_dysplasia.php










:wub:


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Your vet is a jerk to be talking to you about putting your dog to sleep. Yes, her hips are bad, but if she is not showing pain, and being a normal goofy GSD, then there is no reason to panic at all. I would not be thinking surgery at this point either. Some dogs have terrible hips and never have a lame day in their lives, some have just barely questionable hips and can't walk. Each dog is different and have different thresholds of pain.
It sounds like your vet is wanting to get two very expensive hip replacements done... I had my first GSD and had FHO procedures done on her at just barely over a year old. Her hips were sublexated and not even in the acetabulum at all. Did the fho procedures on both hips over a three month time and she did search and rescue for 9 years after the surgeries.
Keep her lean, in good shape, active and good muscle tone, that will help tons towards keeping her hips in a painfree lifestyle.. 
I would get a second opinion if you want, but only because your vet is already trying to tell you that your dog should be euthanized or else have expensive surgeries. Most vets will suggest the FHO procedure also, but seems your vet is out for the expensive surgery... which typically only last a few years or so. FHO's will work for the lifetime of the dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

X-ray Of Normal Hips Vs Those With Dog Hip Dysplasia |

More good info, shows a dog with horrific xrays that is 7 yrs old and with minimal treatment the dog is leading an active, pain free life with only occasional use of prescriptions.



> ...............the vast majority of dog hip dysplasia cases can lead active happy lives with non-surgical therapy. Key components of non-surgical therapy include:
> 
> •Treat the inflamed joint itself using nutriceuticals (glucosamine, omega-3’s etc.), a structured exercise program to build hip strength and stability, manual therapy (e.g.: mobilizations), acupuncture, anti-inflammatories etc.
> 
> ...


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am very sorry for your girl by hose hips are not good. But the Vet I work always says one very good thing " we treat the dog not the X-ray" 

If your girl is running and playing and acting normal, keep it up. I have seen dogs with radio graphically abominable hips, that were running/hunting/hiking with zero issue. 

So treat your dog. Don't focus on the radiograph. If your breeder is a jerk, he won't care. Give her supplements, keep her skinny, not thin, skinny. Keep her muscle up. Maybe find a rehab specialist in your area to show you stength and muscle building exercises. 

But many many dogs live a quality life for many many years with hips that bad and much worse. If your girl shows pain, treat it. If not, let her go at her pace. She will tell you when it hurts. Just listen to her! 


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

K.Creek said:


> I apologize, Jean was not the breeder of Sadie. Jean was someone I have spoken with about purchasing a puppy from and that is how I learned of her requirements....I have nothing negative to say about her, she seems very knowledgable and kind...
> The breeder I purchased Sadie from is an irresponsible jerk. I could send these to him all day and he would never own up to any fault of his breeding program...lesson learned unfortunately...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I miss read your comment. sorry about that.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

HD is not a death sentence, especially if she is living a normal life...


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

I cannot thank you all enough. I feel much better and my spirits are lifted... 
The links and information that has been provided is great! 


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## vwitt (May 22, 2013)

My previous GSD got x-rayed and showed bad hips very young. The vet was a jerk - called me an "emotional woman" - and also suggested surgery which was financially not an option for me at the time. I got a second opinion from another vet who said a lot of things already mentioned in this thread. I kept her lean, healthy & active all her life. Started her on glucosamine at some point which helped post exercise stiffness. She lived to be 12 years old. Cancer got her before her hips gave out  but she lived a happy, active life!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Why put her to sleep if she isnt even clinical?!?!?? Yes those will likely cause problems... in the future! Start putting money away now. Supplements - dasequin is best, glyco flex second best recommended supplement. Keep SKINNY and lean. Build muscle mass through low impact - swimming is great. When she starts acting painful which may be years down the line medicate with anti inflammatorys. Rimadyl or gabapentin are good. When that doesnt help THEN look at sx. There are steps to these things. You can do surgery now, but if osteoarthritis and pain hasn't set in yet why stress to the point of euthanasia? ?

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't let your vet drive your decisions with fear . That is so wrong.
Those hips aren't that bad . Not good. But not "that" bad. 

As everyone has already said you want the dog to be kept lean with good muscular build. That requires good nutrition, especially a good source of clean protein . 

I would not wait for inflammation to set in because that brings in many other problems . Set the course for a preventive care management which includes anti inflammatory essential fatty acids looking specifically for omega 3's . You do not want to develop arthritis !

This is where doing the x ray young , as a pre-lim is helpful because you can prevent conditions which will make the dog uncomfortable , a better future possible as far as the dog feeling okay.
If you were to consult with a specialist they may recommend a surgery which cuts a band of muscle or tissue which heals to form a better capsule , reducing some of the laxity which contributes to arthritis or degenerative bone disease. here is a link with a good discussion about the problem Hip Dysplasia in Dogs: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention
Look to food and supplements which have anti oxidants , which includes vitamin C , from WHOLE food sources . 

Feed to protect cartilage and connective tissue. You want to provide stability to the joint. 


exercise --- try to provide exercise where you maintain muscle mass -- distance at a regulated speed , direction and time . A gentle run beside a bike at a speed that you would power walk at - so around 3 to 5 miles per hour .
What is damaging is spurts of speed , stops and gos , twisting , as you would have in retrieval play where the dog flies out, slams on the brakes, changes direction.

you'll be okay -- no drastic measures needed , especially a dog coping , living a happy active live , being put to sleep -- (shake head)


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Honestly...I would wait to see what OFA says. My vet, whom I absolutely love and trust, said most GP vets can't read OFA style X rays properly. The vet who did Finn's films said his hips were bad, but OFA came back with a solid Good. We even did repeats and the same thing came back. 

I talked with OFA about it and they said if the position of the dog isn't spot on, it can look worse than it actually is...that and vets just not reading the films right. 

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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

I ordered GlycoFlex 600 and a glucosamine, chondrotin and msm combination....I will get some salmon oil from the local pet store and add the to her food. I cannot thank you all enough...
I will send her X-rays to the OFA today...any idea how long it takes to hear back from them?



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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

K.Creek said:


> I ordered GlycoFlex 600 and a glucosamine, chondrotin and msm combination....I will get some salmon oil from the local pet store and add the to her food. I cannot thank you all enough...
> I will send her X-rays to the OFA today...any idea how long it takes to hear back from them?
> 
> 
> ...


Just get fish oil pills for humans instead of that overpriced salmon oil pump stuff you get at the pet store.



Shaolin said:


> Honestly...I would wait to see what OFA says. My vet, whom I absolutely love and trust, said most GP vets can't read OFA style X rays properly. The vet who did Finn's films said his hips were bad, but OFA came back with a solid Good. We even did repeats and the same thing came back.
> 
> I talked with OFA about it and they said if the position of the dog isn't spot on, it can look worse than it actually is...that and vets just not reading the films right.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not trying to sound negative, but there isn't a chance the OFA is passing those hips. The positioning is fine. There is zero doubt that there is HD in those hips no matter who looks at it or how they're positioned.


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks LucyDog I will grab some from the local store...



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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> Just get fish oil pills for humans instead of that overpriced salmon oil pump stuff you get at the pet store.
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to sound negative, but there isn't a chance the OFA is passing those hips. The positioning is fine. There is zero doubt that there is HD in those hips no matter who looks at it or how they're positioned.




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Yes...I know there's HD...but at the same time, it might not be as critical as the vet is making it out to be; saying the dog has to be PTS. From the OP....it sounds like the vet gave the dog a death sentence for seriously bad hips whereas it could come back from the OFA as a mild to moderate form. 

That's all I was saying; wait for the experts to give the final say. Just like carmspack said, the hips aren't good, but they aren't FUBAR either.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Shaolin said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> Yes...I know there's HD...but at the same time, it might not be as critical as the vet is making it out to be; saying the dog has to be PTS. From the OP....it sounds like the vet gave the dog a death sentence for seriously bad hips whereas it could come back from the OFA as a mild to moderate form.
> 
> That's all I was saying; wait for the experts to give the final say. Just like carmspack said, the hips aren't good, but they aren't FUBAR either.


Oh, no way these hips are a death sentence. At least 3 or 4 people (myself included) already mentioned these hips aren't horrible. 

To me it sounds like the vet that said that has other motives like an expensive surgery.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Apache's hips were rated moderate hd (it was a long time ago it might have been medium I don't remember) one side was worse than the other at almost 11yrs old you would never know it.


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

kiya said:


> Apache's hips were rated moderate hd (it was a long time ago it might have been medium I don't remember) one side was worse than the other at almost 11yrs old you would never know it.


This makes me feel much better!! 
Are there things you have done/do that haven't been mentioned yet? 

The vet who did her X-rays is in no way tied to who I would find to do her surgery (if it came to that). He gave me several names and places who could evaluate her hips and perform surgery if needed. He wouldn't profit or benefit from me paying a fortune as the surgeon would be my choice.

I'm just hoping its not severe...I'm hoping for mild HD, I mean everyone can see it, I know it's there but I'm being optimistic.
Yesterday was hard and I apologize if some of my posts weren't clear or sensible 
Thank you all again, all advice is welcome!


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

Also, this may be a dumb question but how will I know when she is in pain?
This is a dog who would still run and play with a fractured metacarpal! I haven't seen anything out of the ordinary and that makes me think I am either blind or stupid... I mean will she cry? Will she just become less active? Hard time sitting/standing? 




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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

He has really bad arthritis so he's been on dasuquin & carprofen for that for about 3yrs, fish oil is about the only thing I can add to his food without him refusing to eat. 
Even when he was younger you could hear the creaking in his hind quarters, but I think that's from the artritis not hd.
You do what you think is best and that's all you can do.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cyra at 3, They never slowed her down. 
She started getting a little stiff in the mornings at 9 years
Bad x-ray, figure it was a scan of an actual film on a flatbed scanner in 2006.
Shots not well done enough for OFA but Ortho vet did not even bother to take more - said they would grade as severe


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm going to repeat myself: consider the FHO procedure instead of hip replacement. Significantly more cost-efficient and the pet still gets the health benefits.


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

marbury said:


> I'm going to repeat myself: consider the FHO procedure instead of hip replacement. Significantly more cost-efficient and the pet still gets the health benefits.


Thank you! I will do some research on this


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

marbury said:


> I'm going to repeat myself: consider the FHO procedure instead of hip replacement. Significantly more cost-efficient and the pet still gets the health benefits.


So I've been doing some reading on FHO and I have several concerns:
I've read several that state larger breed dogs are less successful with these surgeries, there are some (great dane) that have had the FHO and do great...still a scary thought...
Some people have suggested that you can do one hip and not both, does anyone think this is a good idea? 
I will say FHO seems to be much more reasonable cost wise, but so far I am finding mixed reviews...I'm sure it will newest to do a co silt with an ortho surgeon...

A major surgery like this scares the heck out of me...
I will be waiting to hear from OFA, try and make contact with and orthopedic surgeon (closest one is a 5 hr drive i believe), and start Sadie on supplements...

I still can't believe it all 


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Your concerns are certainly valid. Every surgery has its potential risks; the act of sedation alone carries the majority of the risk. I work at an animal hospital that performs this surgery regularly (once every 3-4 weeks, on average). We have had one patient die on the table in my time there, and she was fine throughout the surgery. It was not until recovery that she passed peacefully as a complication from sedation. Of the patients I have worked with, most were medium sized dogs (around 55lbs) and most of them, oddly, female.
The biggest part of the FHO procedure that affects eventual outcome is how the physical therapy is handled after the surgery. All but one of the clients that I have worked with now have dogs that walk normally, although one patient (a lab mix) is now 11 and has some trouble getting up and down stairs (understandable at her age, I think!). We performed a single FHO on a small chihuahua mix whose owner did not complete physical therapy. The pet now has stiffness in walking and prefers not to use her back legs now. Just like in human knee or hip replacements it is VITAL to follow through with the prescribed PT exercises to regain normal function of the joint. That error was on the part of the owner and unfortunately her choices caused the dog's current condition.
If you have a local specialist in Texas that has hydrotherapy or a pool to facilitate exercise that is really the absolute best choice. We do not have such facilities but have not had a problem.

Two days ago our veterinarian did a double FHO on an 18 month old female german shepherd, at the time a 62lb dog. Her surgery was successful and she is now in recovery. She is getting up on her own and can move with some success, eating and drinking normally, medicated and happy. We expect her to have no trouble with her continued recovery. We board dogs all the time at the clinic that have had double FHO procedures, and I would not have been able to tell were it not for the note on their chart. They don't experience bone-on-bone grating, arthritis, or bonespurs.

Ultimately, the strength and stability of the musculature surrounding the joint is critical for your dog. Whether she gets a new set of hips, has her hips 'removed', or has nothing done at all she'll need to have strong surrounding tissue. Good diet, proper supplementation, adequate exercise, and implimentation of palliative care when the time comes are all points you will need to address.

Whether you misunderstood your vet or he was being a dingbat, don't consider euthanization until you are absolutely out of options and your pet's suffering outweighs her quality of life.


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

marbury said:


> Your concerns are certainly valid. Every surgery has its potential risks; the act of sedation alone carries the majority of the risk. I work at an animal hospital that performs this surgery regularly (once every 3-4 weeks, on average). We have had one patient die on the table in my time there, and she was fine throughout the surgery. It was not until recovery that she passed peacefully as a complication from sedation. Of the patients I have worked with, most were medium sized dogs (around 55lbs) and most of them, oddly, female.
> The biggest part of the FHO procedure that affects eventual outcome is how the physical therapy is handled after the surgery. All but one of the clients that I have worked with now have dogs that walk normally, although one patient (a lab mix) is now 11 and has some trouble getting up and down stairs (understandable at her age, I think!). We performed a single FHO on a small chihuahua mix whose owner did not complete physical therapy. The pet now has stiffness in walking and prefers not to use her back legs now. Just like in human knee or hip replacements it is VITAL to follow through with the prescribed PT exercises to regain normal function of the joint. That error was on the part of the owner and unfortunately her choices caused the dog's current condition.
> If you have a local specialist in Texas that has hydrotherapy or a pool to facilitate exercise that is really the absolute best choice. We do not have such facilities but have not had a problem.
> 
> ...


I cannot thank you enough...it's just nice talking to others about it, hearing other people's stories is a great help. 
I do not off hand know of anyone here who does hydrotherapy and I do not have a pool but my mother in law has a pond that may be of use? I'm afraid of an infection there though...I could look around and see what I find in regards to hydrotherapy.
Heck I could probably find a stock tank large enough to let her do stationary swimming in 


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

Great news! There is a vet approximately 30 minutes from me who offers hydrotherapy! I've contacted them and we will be scheduling a consult soon!


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Not an Ortho expert but the joints look pretty chewed up.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

coolgsd, this thread is from 2013.


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