# Yikes! Grabbing and Biting in Agility!!



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Okay you guys help me out here......

Havoc's drive is really getting over the top. Had agility class on Saturday and he was so pushy and drivy he was grabbing at my arms. 

We were working on serpentiine handling and he is big, with a large stride and extremely fast. I was having a hard time being quick enough on my feet to get into position to pick him up and send him on to the jump sequence. I know we were both getting frustrated. He came down the dogwalk on the send to the tunnel on our 3 or 4th attempt on this. As he came down the down side of the dog walk and I motioned to the tunnel he grabbed my left arm, broke the skin and drew blood though a sweatshirt. It REALLY hurt and I lost it. I turned on him and scruffed him hard and then put him in his crate. I was angry and reacted to him and disciplined him out of anger which was wrong.

The instructor was pretty floored when I showed her the punctures in my arm that were bleeding. Today I am very badly bruised. She agreed he needed the discipline but also said it might have been a calming tactic on his part as he sensed my fruatration at my lack of speed to get ahead of him. 

On Sunday we were at another class with the same instructor and we were preparing to give a demo at the Western Regional Sheep Dog Trials. We were practicing our routine and Havoc again got very mouthy and grabby. This time I just turned my back on him and walked off the course, got my leash and put him in his crate without saying a word. He did not grab me again for the rest of the day. 

In addition just before he got grabby he barked at dog in a crate. Joann, the instructor had her car parked just on the edge of the course and had gotten her papillon out of of the car to move equipment and she forget to set his crate back in the car. So there was poor Levy in his crate 10 feet from the start line with the first obstacle being the teeter and one of Havoc's favorites. I put him a sit and Levy barked at Havoc and Havoc spun on him and barked back. I gave a pretty good verbal correction and called him back and he responded immediatlely but I was surprised, he has NEVER shown any aggression to any dog and never one barking from a crate. Kind of surprised me but I know it was arousal and excitement.

We went on to the demo at the Sheep Dog Trials and I was a little worried about what he would do there with all the sheep and 50 plus hard driving and staring border collies. He wanted to sniff all over so I let him get it out of his system and when it came time for his run he did fine, all business, no sniffing the sheep dung which was all over and no grabbing my arms either. He did well with all the dogs too. 

He is maturing and I think I need to harness his drive and work to keep his arousal level down when we are under stress.

But what about the grabbing? How would you guys handle this?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Kathy, OUCH,, I see this ALOT tho,,dog is ready and raring, handler may not be fast enough as the dog would like, dog gets frustrated,,usually by barking or grabbing..They are TUNED up and we just aren't keeping up with them LOL..

As for the barking at the other dog,,again, tho new,,it's not surprising,,heck it happens,,

Agility can really tune our dogs up and the chaotic atomsphere as well..

It's always been a peeve of mine when I would see, mostly aussies, grabbing /holding barking at their handler on course..I always said when I got my aussie, there was NO way I wanted to go thru that,,it's SO LOUD, and distracting,,luckily I have silent running aussies,,UNTIL , I may be, don't give a good signal, am not keeping up or whatever..My GSD was always a quiet serious runner as well. 

I wouldn't beat myself up about the hard correction,,I probably would have done the same thing,,IT HURT!! He didn't know it, but it's a normal reaction I think anyone would have done..

I think if I were you,,since you said when you turned your back and walked off, he didn't do it again the rest of the day,,that might be the trick for stopping the behavior..END THE GAME and IGNORE HIM for a bit..My sister has a papillon who would get the zoomies ALOT,,she would ignore him, walk off, put him in his crate, and leave him for awhile..His zoomies stopped..Dogs that LOVE agility don't like the game to end )

If I remember correctly he's still pretty young and new to the 'game'? I wouldn't want to harness his drive, I think continuing exposure and keep doing what you did on Sunday and he'll get the message quick enough..

Ok done rambling
Diane


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yes Havoc turned 16 months on Saturday! He is just a kid and coming into himself. This was not aggression it was over arousal and I think as he matures adn if I handle it correctly he will learn better control. 

I also cannot stand the dogs that bark non stop. There is an Aussie in our club that does that too an it is sooo annoying.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kathy, is that Aussie Chloe? She's a barking turn on button for Anton and I simply avoid her. 

I think you are on top of everything with Havoc and do it right. I'm also impressed that your instructor also realized what was going on (and not labeled him handler aggressive right of the bet).

I keep thinking how to train Anton (and Havoc!) by using and redirecting their drives and not just trying to calm them down because I'm afraid it may not work until they are fully matured.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yep it is Chloe!!!!!!

I think we just need calm and patience with our guys! I'll show you my arm tomorrow!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Kathy, you instructor was pretty cool. I am sure if I did anything like that where I was training Raya, I would have been booted. The trainer even told people not to rib thump their dogs like I did with Raya, who loves good solid rib thumps.

I know your reaction was not planned in any way. With that and putting Havoc up for getting a little too ramped up will leave an impression. Some dogs every now and then need that "Come to Jesus meeting" others would fold up like a rag doll. 

I don't think you hurt your relationship one bit, he needs to learn who is leading. 

When I was working with DeeDee in Agility, my trainer was one of those I pitched voice, jumping up and down when a dog did something right and told me I had to do that. I told her DeeDee doesn't need that because she looses focus and started jumping around and spinning. I wonder if you might need to bring down your commands and markers to a nice calm, yes or good. Just a thought.

Val


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I did some weaves in the yard tonight and he started getting ramped up and I just lowered my voice, slowed my movements and quietly praised him. It did work.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I don't think you will have any problems speeding him up, right now he needs to learn some control. 

Some dogs just get too excited at times and we need to keep them more level. Excited is good when he can control it a bit more. Biting MOM is not good.

Val


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

No speed will not be a problem for the dog who works for cheerios!


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## LuvsDieter (Feb 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWNo speed will not be a problem for the dog who works for cheerios!


haha, regular or Honey Nut? He might like the new Cheerios Crunch that is out too


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

He does!!!!!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Kathy, I hope your arm is healing okay! Keep an eye on those punctures - even our "nice" dogs can have pretty dirty mouths. Hot compresses should help if you see any redness around the wounds. 

I, too, would react with a quick correction if one of my dogs grabbed me like that. There are many things I tolerate but biting is not one of them! *L* And it sounds like Havoc has enough enthusiasm that a correction is not going to dampen him much. I think that sometimes agility instructors are so worried about dogs "turning off" on the equipment that they don't want anyone using any sort of negative at any time, but there ARE dogs that need discipline in agility just like any sport. 

I remember dragging Dora (my smallest chow) out onto the agility course during practice and the instructor was biting her lip because it really bothered her. But I knew my dog - she had left the course mid-run because she just didn't feel like doing it, and I knew that if I let her go at that point that would be it - no more agility. Chows tend toward very independent thought and once they have your bluff they will do as they want. So I simply went to her, took her collar, and she locked up all four legs so I had to pull her along .. *L* .. I set her up in front of the next obstacle, told her to stay and walked out to the obstacle, turned and gave her the command and she ZOOMED through the course in the most beautiful manner. I didn't have any problems after that and she was happy and bouncy and full of herself after the run. She just had to know that I insisted. Many dogs would have shut down with that handling but knowing your own dog is what's important - and you know your dog! Havoc stepped over a line and you said "NOPE, AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!" and I'm sure he respects you for it. You just can't have them biting like that (not if you want to keep your arms!).

Take care of your arm!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW just lowered my voice


We do not do agility training, but after reading this suggestion in a book, I've used it during obedience training with Boss and he does seem to respond better than with my normal higher pitched voice.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Melanie, EXCELLENT advice. That's how it is in our class. Our instructor emphasizes positives and starts with very low corrections but for some dogs, she's not afraid to pull all the stops. Mine is like that. If he insists on snorkeling the ground for bitches that peed or dropped treats, I sometimes have to give him a heck of a correction but then he finally gives in, looks up at me, then gives me that wonderful smile and eye contact and tail wag I've been looking for and things are hunky-dory. With a lot of dogs, what I have to do to get his mind back on task in some situations would make them shut down for days. When I do "get his brain back," the food and praise rain down from the sky.

Good on you for knowing your dog so well! I bet a lot of handlers would completely shut down if their dogs reacted like that. She finally realized that if she has to do agility, she might as well enjoy it.











> Quote:I just lowered my voice, slowed my movements and quietly praised him. It did work.


I have to be VERY conscious of this with Renji. If I get excited and uppity, he's all over the place and hectic. If I am calm and controlled, he's more collected as well. My energy and stability (or lack thereof) really makes or breaks a session.


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