# Unusual Request - Assistance Appreciated :]



## Avanti (Apr 6, 2014)

Bit different from many other threads I've seen, but I thought I would inquire anyway if there's anyone who could help. :]

I'm currently located in Canada, but I am looking to relocate to Ohio by late summer/early fall of next year. I have experience with small dogs (both solo trained for light obedience work and conformation work), and am well-acquainted with larger dogs (grew up with them, but no solo work myself). Over the years my lower spinal discs have deteriorated to a point where independent movement issues (stairs are the equivalent of dipping myself in hot magma) and staying cooped up due to fears of falling have become the norm. To top it off, two years ago I was diagnosed with PTSD, which has made trying to overcome the fears of going outside alone more of a hurdle. As you can imagine, I've grown rather weary of the situation.

After extensive discussion with my doctor, we've determined that a service dog could assist with both mobility issues as well as the psychiatric assistance. After I move I will have the live-in assistance in the form of my supportive wife to assist with the physical aspects of a rather rambunctious new puppy. After some research into the three breeds that were suggested to us by a local PTSD service dog organization (Newfoundland, German Shepherd, Great Dane were given to us as strong success candidates due to both the mobility and psychiatric service needs) we've selected the German Shepherd.

I don't have much experience with this breed in particular, but a friend who has owned one in the past informed me that the breed has a history of being suitable for PTSD work, so I'm hoping we've made the right selection (please correct me if the GSD is unsuitable for this kind of work!). I would like to find the right breeder, but I've run into a few snags. I'm hoping the forum has some knowledgeable members who can lead me in the right direction!

- I've been informed that GSDs have both a very high prey drive and an extremely strong will that makes them difficult to train. Is this true?

- Is the GSD suitable for an owner who only has experience with small dogs?

- Are there any GSD breeders in the southern Ohio area who have dogs that are on the calmer, easier side of temperament? I'm hopefully looking to find a very laid back shepherd with a friendly temperament and am not sure if the GSD is the breed for this.

- I have a preference towards the longer, plush coat German Shepherds and would prefer to find a dog with this coat. The colour doesn't matter. :]

- Most importantly, is this work truly suitable to the GSD? I have seen many PTSD GSD success stories, but I would like to know from owners/breeders if they feel the breed is suitable.

- I am aware of the importance of having hip and elbow tests, but are there any other health tests I should be looking for?

I think that's all the questions for now! Your responses are deeply appreciated. :]

- Ava


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wouldn't limit your search to OH....but look for breeders that are breeding dogs that can do what you need. 
Check out Alta-Tollhaus German Shepherd Dogs in MI. There have been a few dogs from there placed as service dogs. I train locally with many dogs from the kennel, they are of good temperament and health.


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## Avanti (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes, I should have clarified, sorry! We are welcome to suggestions that are from neighbouring states. We would prefer not to ship, though, as we would like to see the puppies and meet the breeder in person. So suggestions from Michigan, Kentucky, Illinois, and such that are close to Ohio are more than welcome! :]

I will look into Alta-Tollhaus - thank you for the suggestion!

- Ava


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm neither a breeder or a trainer ( except for my own pooch ) but as far as your question...
- I've been informed that GSDs have both a very high prey drive and an extremely strong will that makes them difficult to train. Is this true?

If in fact this is true, the offsetting attribute GSDs have is their incredible ability to be trained and learn...so I would say they are not "difficult to train" whatsoever. They are an incredible quick study. This is what my experience has taught me. What I find to be truer and truer with each GSD I have had over the years is the limiting factor in my dog's abilities is not due to the dog but is due to my lack of ability in properly training the dog. The more I have learned has only brought my dog to a higher level, so....as they say, " the ball is in your court".


SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A GSD would be my last choice as it is also the last choice for a seeing eye dog these days also Labs and Goldens for the most part GSD's make up 15%.

GSD's carry some baggage that you don't need in a service dog, not saying that can't do it.

If you want a dog that "looks" like a GSD without the "baggage" that can come with the real deal consider a Shilo or King Shepherd.

Personally if you can train little dogs, I don't think you'll have any problems with a "real" dog. 
Assistance Dogs International : Dog Breeds & Behaviour


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

There are plenty of people who have GSDs as service dogs. They're very well suited to the task when the right temperament is matched for the job. 

Yes, you can find a plush coat but as far as the dog, focus more on temperament. You can let the breeder know your coat preference but a good breed, as the one Jane recommended, is going to focus on temperament above all else. Be open and honest with the breeder you choose as to your experience and needs. Chances are they'll help you either find an adult dog to work with training or they'll have an older puppy they think will work for your needs. 

Far as prey drive, each dog is different. My female has zero prey drive. None. My male is about medium. As far as training, again, each dog is different. Most are incredibly easy to train. Just have to find what drives them *food, toys, praise, etc*. 

This is a breed that is meant to work. They like to work. They need and enjoy having a job to do.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

I just want to add that yes, this breed is very easily trainable, they seem to get things right away. But they do need a good amount of exercise and discipline. They will test you as they grow older. It will be a while before the puppy matures to a stable and calmer temperament. A trainer said to me that a GSD is a very hard dog to have even when you are exerienced with dogs, because they can have issues without a thorough and appropriate socialisation process, and it is time consuming. 

All that said, they are very loyal and loving and love to please.


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## Avanti (Apr 6, 2014)

> They will test you as they grow older.


This, I think, is what I'm afraid of. My little dogs were always very pliant and carefree. They were spunky as puppies but I never received "challenges" and such that my friend told me she experienced with her GSD. I think I just get nervous that I'll "fail" the dog in some way by not being "enough" of a trainer (if that even makes sense!).

Exercise would not be too much trouble, I don't believe. Where I am moving to has access to two off-leash dog parks, a local all-breed obedience club (despite knowing what to do, I would be attending obedience classes as both a refresher and place to socialize), and it is close to several hiking trails. My wife enjoys hiking and I'm sure would have no trouble taking the pup hiking (if necessary I could even hop in my wheelchair to take the dog along the trails, albeit slowly!). 



> GSD's carry some baggage that you don't need in a service dog, not saying that can't do it.


Could you please elaborate on what you mean by "baggage"? I apologize if it's obvious and I just missed it! :]

- Ava


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

I know someone you should talk to! Her name is Michelle, and she breeds GSDs and trains dogs for service work, and has had clients with PTSD. The icing on the cake, her dogs carry the long coat gene so you have a shot at a long coated puppy! She's in WI, so big terribly far from OH. She's super nice and will be honest with you on whether she thinks you'll be a good fit for one of her dogs. 
Schroederhaus K9 - Home
Good luck in your search!


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

First thing most people will tell you is NO dog parks. 

but sounds like you are going to be good for the exercise


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## Avanti (Apr 6, 2014)

Oh, no dog parks? I thought that was a good place after pup was fully vaccinated? We took our previous dogs there without issue (not to these particular ones, though). Is it because you can't guarantee the kinds of experiences the puppy will have?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Avanti said:


> Oh, no dog parks? I thought that was a good place after pup was fully vaccinated? We took our previous dogs there without issue (not to these particular ones, though). Is it because you can't guarantee the kinds of experiences the puppy will have?


GSDs aren't really dog park dogs. Also, with your dog having the future of a service dog, it's not a good idea anyway as too much can go wrong at the dog park. Too many irresponsible owners taking their dogs there who are untrained and/or aggressive.


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## sechattin (Nov 13, 2013)

Avanti said:


> Is it because you can't guarantee the kinds of experiences the puppy will have?


Exactly. Especially with a pup you want to be a service dog, you are looking for rock solid socialization, absolutely no bad experiences for the pup to possibly have a future hang up about. It only takes one bad incident to form a bad impression with a pup and then best case scenario, you just piled a huge load of recovery work on your shoulders to reverse that bad experience or worst case scenario, that pup has that bad experience on their mind for the rest of their life and the best that can be done is management. 

I would say no dog parks. I have worked with dogs large and small for years, know dog body language very well, and I still take a huge risk taking my dog to off hours at the park. Busy times are out of the question. There is just so much that can go wrong so quickly, especially for a puppy. Plus you have major health concerns with an area that is exposed daily to so many dogs and their various sicknesses and ailments. In an ideal world, people would make sure their dogs are fit and healthy, but I can't tell you how many dogs I've seen at the park with various ailments and infections. Also, I've never seen an officer where I live checking to make sure dogs have shots. It's posted as a rule of the park, but I've never seen it enforced.


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## Avanti (Apr 6, 2014)

> GSDs aren't really dog park dogs. Also, with your dog having the future of a service dog, it's not a good idea anyway as too much can go wrong at the dog park. Too many irresponsible owners taking their dogs there who are untrained and/or aggressive.


Oh, I see. Okay then! Thank you for telling me! :]


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Avanti said:


> Could you please elaborate on what you mean by "baggage"? I apologize if it's obvious and I just missed it! :]
> 
> - Ava


"Why shouldn't an Assistance Dog be protective?" See the link I posted.

Not my call or experience, I just look for patterns in that pattern, Labs and Retrievers make up 85% of the seeing eye dogs GDS's are 15%.

Another dog (one of my favorites) that could make an excellent service dog would be a Boxer...if you have a lot of time on your hand! It would take 3 times as long to train a Boxer as a service dog as it would a GSD! Most pro's don't have that kind of time to devote to a single dog. 

Oh and forget the King Shepherd anyway...to big. 

And from my experience I had about 12 years training and handling dogs all Bully breeds my GSD handed me my butt! I had to really up my game to deal with his "protection/people issues."

I did and he's fine, my "guess" would be that 'Seeing eyes for the Blind' doesn't need that kind of crap with the dogs they place?

But to your point with a GSD, you need the right dog, with the right temperament, from a good breeder! And you need to have your game face on, anything less with a GSD and it might not work out so well. 

Another link general info:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.html

"Who pets my puppy or Dog" is how I train all my dogs.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Other people have been less abrupt with it but I'll say it straight out -- forget fussing about what coat you would prefer. You are after a service dog. You want a very knowledgable breeder who will be able to tell you if this litter on the ground has an appropriate pup for you. In a litter there can be very laid back pup or two very suitable for service work, high drive pups that would be better put to work in a sport, and pups that could go either way. 
Do not worry about WHERE this breeder is located. You are after knowledge and reputation deep enough to pick out the pup of whichever gender, coat and color it happens to be that will be the best service dog. Both the breeder(s) and pup(s) for your purpose are out there.


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## Avanti (Apr 6, 2014)

> forget fussing about what coat you would prefer.


Oh, it's not a requirement, just a preference. I find grooming dogs to be very soothing (brushing and things soothes my nerves) so I simply thought it would be preferable to get a long coated GSD in this case. If it so happens that the perfect match is a short or medium coat then by all means I'm more than content with that; I was just wondering if anyone knew of a long coated breeder who bred dogs with the coat type that was a preference!



> Do not worry about WHERE this breeder is located.


This is more of a financial as well as peace of mind consideration, though. Shipping is extremely expensive (I've been quoted anywhere from $450 to almost $1000) so it would be much easier to find a breeder close to us that we could simply drive to. I'd also really would like the opportunity to meet in person with the breeder and meet the pups in person. I was always of the mindset to have the breeder select the pup for me since they would know the puppies better than I would, but I would still like the opportunity to "meet and greet" the litter, as it were. :] I'm willing to travel to neighbouring states but I'm quite firm on not wanting to ship. I hope that makes sense! :]


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

When I was in Arkansas I flew to Oregon to pick up a pup. It wasn't that expensive. Besides, it worked for a vacation, too. She flew as carry on & I think it was 75 to 100$ fee. That was about 4 years ago. So, to me, no, it doesn't make sense not to ship or to go pick up.
You want a pup suitable for a specific task. With good health and excellent temperment & very specific drive levels. I'd watch what other constraints I put on this if I were in your position. It's a little like me and lottery tickets - they haven't had the winner for sale any time I was at the store -- so I haven't bought the ticket yet. 
But it is your pup & your situation. We've at least got you out of coat-type preferences (I love long coats having had two myself - but I didn't specifically look for long coats and I currently have one very tight coated dog and the pup is "to be determined". I get what the breeder has that he thinks is suitable for me.)


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Here is some good reading for you. There is a breeder directory also. It might make things easier for you.


German Shepherd Guide - Home


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Avanti said:


> Oh, no dog parks? I thought that was a good place after pup was fully vaccinated? We took our previous dogs there without issue (not to these particular ones, though). Is it because you can't guarantee the kinds of experiences the puppy will have?


Well that's my call to arms!

Info here in post 8
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.html

You were lucky lots of folks have no problems at dogs parks... lots of folks don't. Cesar Millan builds his career on dog park folks. Cesar 911 every week...here we go again! But hey maybe that's why he never says... don't go to dog parks?? There good for business! 

In simple terms you put your dog at risk, if he gets attacked he can easily become a fear bitter or dog reactive Second if your dog is allowed to run around out of control, he can easily learn that you don't matter. My guys never did dog parks they never had issues caused by other peoples dogs.

They were taught to ignore other dogs not to be other folks chew toy! No "dog parks" no "I thought my dog was friendly folks??"

Don't need the hassle I put too much time and effort into my dogs to risk them getting hurt or developing issues, that "I" have to fix. 

And you're not going to see Service dogs, Seeing eye dogs or K9's at a Dog Park..unless you take yours??


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Yes, I think a GSD would make a good service dog for you. They are highly intelligent. Some do have a high prey drive, they key is finding a good source (breeder) for the type of dog you need.

Many of my friends had Great Danes when I was growing up, and although I love this breed I cannot see it as a service dog. The ones I've known have been very mellow, just not intelligent. My neighbor had a Newfoundland, it had a great temperament but seemed to require a lot of exercise or else it would get hyper.

Here's a link to a nice article about a service dog (non-gsd)
Celebrating nurses: Sarge's healing powers : Nursing made Incredibly Easy

And here's a recommendation for an enjoyable fiction read about a GSD K9 who has PTSD. The book describes german shepherds extremely well, it was as if the author lived in our home they way he wrote about all the dog's details.
Suspect, by Robert Crais


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I find GSDs the easiest dogs to train but many people don't. 

*NO* to typical dog parks. Find a puppy class in your area to socialize your pup with. Find a good group of older dogs later who you can do socials with.

As to mobility -- be careful. They are not made to hold your full or even most of your weight such as you would use a walker or cane for. No weight (pressure) should be used on them before they are a full 24 months old and X-rays and evaluations through OFA or PennHip. 

Mobility with a GSD would be to help your get up from a chair, a bed, or off the floor if you fall. They help give you a pull up steps, up a curb, an incline, or step over something that you can not get around. They help with your balance if you get dizzy. They also are trained to retrieve objects thereby limiting you getting up and going for the object itself. They pick up objects off the floor if you drop something. 

As to a PTSD dog -- I am careful who I recommend the use of a GSD. A GSD will pick up on your emotions and if you become scared they will look for the danger. Not a problem if the handler is able to let the dog know to relax and that the handler will take care of the "threat". 

A carefully chosen GSD Candidate with the proper temperament and health, the correct training and with a GSD savy handler can make a wonderful SD.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ILGHAUS said:


> As to a PTSD dog -- I am careful who I recommend the use of a GSD. A GSD will pick up on your emotions and if you become scared they will look for the danger. Not a problem if the handler is able to let the dog know to relax and that the handler will take care of the "threat".
> 
> A carefully chosen GSD Candidate with the proper temperament and health, the correct training and with a GSD savy handler can make a wonderful SD.


Thanks for the clarification.


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## Avanti (Apr 6, 2014)

So much good advice! I will try to respond to everything...

It seems dog parks will definitely be out, but that's okay. I'm just used to being able to take the others so it's a surprise to me but I appreciate the advice! I'm going to try to minimize my mistakes with the pup so it's better to learn from the experienced people. :] Obedience classes are a definite must, even if only for the socialization. There is an all-breed club very close to the new location so it will be quite easy for me to get to.



> Many of my friends had Great Danes when I was growing up, and although I love this breed I cannot see it as a service dog. The ones I've known have been very mellow, just not intelligent. My neighbor had a Newfoundland, it had a great temperament but seemed to require a lot of exercise or else it would get hyper.


A good chunk of the dogs suggested to us (those happened to be the "top three" that we felt were a good mix for my personal situation) were dogs that were of the giant type because of the mobility issues. The woman we spoke to from the organization explained to us that if we chose to go the German Shepherd route we should look at "oversized" German Shepherds which I have not heard of before because sometimes German Shepherds are too small for mobility work. I've been browsing the forums on that topic and I am not sure what to do on that end. I have private messaged a few people to get personal opinions and I do have well over a year and a half to become acquainted with breeders and the breed itself (so much research to do!) so I'm not too worried. :] I can learn as much as possible in the interim with help!



> They are not made to hold your full or even most of your weight such as you would use a walker or cane for.


Oh yes, this I did know for sure! :] I have a wheelchair as well as an assistance cane to help with that type of thing. The dog is primarily for stairs and brace work to get up from a sitting position (moving out of the wheelchair, standing up from the couch, etc).



> Mobility with a GSD would be to help your get up from a chair, a bed, or off the floor if you fall. They help give you a pull up steps, up a curb, an incline, or step over something that you can not get around. They help with your balance if you get dizzy. They also are trained to retrieve objects thereby limiting you getting up and going for the object itself. They pick up objects off the floor if you drop something.


As mentioned, all of this is exactly what we are looking for. :] The main reason, actually, is the assistance should I fall (even if that assistance is to go and get help). That's one of my biggest fears with going out alone, because it's extremely hard for me to get up on my own and I've had an experience where I've been on the floor in my home for hours unable to reach a phone, just waiting until my fiancée came home.  We are hoping the dog can help allay those fears.



> Not a problem if the handler is able to let the dog know to relax and that the handler will take care of the "threat".


This may be a bit of a problem for us, then. I tend to panic just walking down the street if someone is walking towards me (it's irrational and I know this, but sadly still the case) and the woman at the organization says that it's important to get a dog/breed that is calm and friendly so I can learn to relax when things like this happen. I gathered from your post (please correct me if I'm wrong!) that GSDs tend to react protectively if they feel the handler panic/become tense. Does this mean it may not be a good fit after all? Or just very important to stress early socialization and the right kind of breeder/temperament on the dog?

Thank you all very much again for your advice! It really is a great help to an overwhelmed newbie here. :]


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Avanti said:


> This may be a bit of a problem for us, then. I tend to panic just walking down the street if someone is walking towards me (it's irrational and I know this, but sadly still the case) and the woman at the organization says that it's important to get a dog/breed that is calm and friendly so I can learn to relax when things like this happen. I gathered from your post (please correct me if I'm wrong!) that GSDs tend to react protectively if they feel the handler panic/become tense. Does this mean it may not be a good fit after all? Or just very important to stress early socialization and the right kind of breeder/temperament on the dog?
> 
> Thank you all very much again for your advice! It really is a great help to an overwhelmed newbie here. :]





Chip18 said:


> A GSD would be my last choice as it is also the last choice for a seeing eye dog these days also Labs and Goldens for the most part GSD's make up 15%.
> 
> GSD's carry some baggage that you don't need in a service dog, not saying that can't do it.
> 
> ...


Hmm well if you do want big, and "protectiveness might be an issue...

For the record my guy is a working line OS GSD 125lbs:blush: In his defense his head is as big as mine!

But he had some serious big time "people issues" that I had to overcome! I got him as a 7 month old rescue so maybe he was bringing "baggage to the party?


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear about your panic, I used to have a lot of panic and the episodes did not last for moments but hours. I also knew they were irrational too, but it seemed like my amygdala had a major override of my cerebral cortex. Before I had a dog, I had a Siamese cat that was old and hard of hearing and he loved car rides. So I'd have him sit next to me in the car when I drove and it was very relaxing. So I definitely think having a large breed dog with you will help.

Hopefully others can expand on their experiences with having a GSD as a service dog for a PTSD person. There is a vision impaired man in my neighborhood that is on his second seeing eye dog, both GSDs. He walks a lot and goes everywhere with her, frequently to crowded coffee shops and cafes, his dog obviously does fine, but he does not have fear issues. The Newfoundland that used to live near us was friendly with everyone, even children. He was a great dog, you may want to explore that breed further too.


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