# How can I register my dog without papers?



## EdyMol (Aug 22, 2020)

I got this GSD female 4 months ago when she was 4, the person who sold me had said the father is registered. Unfortunately, I live in a country where nothing gets done correctly. I was supposed to get the registration but then the pandemic started. 4 months later I still cant get any documentation for my dog and I the breeder has moved out as he said he will do. 

I am planning to get a registered male dog and have puppies, but as I mentioned before, just a few people breeders are registering their litters and the prices as through the roof. 

Do I need both dogs to be registered in order for me to register a litter?

My female puppy has great temperament, gets along with other animals and is super smart. 

Any recommendations about this?

I am new to this site, I apologize if this isnt the place for my post. 

Thank you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Both parents must be registered, and the litter must be registered by the breeder. Only then can individual puppies in the litter be registered.


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## EdyMol (Aug 22, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Both parents must be registered, and the litter must be registered by the breeder. Only then can individual puppies in the litter be registered.


Thank you. It is really painful to see how irresponsible people cut the lineage of such beautiful dogs. I wasnt looking to buy a female GSD but she was so badly treated that I couldnt leave her there. I guess I wont ever be able to register my dog then.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Why do you want to register her?


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## EdyMol (Aug 22, 2020)

Sunflowers said:


> Why do you want to register her?


I want to breed her. I am now looking for a registered male GSD. Want to keep the lineage if possible


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can’t keep the lineage intact if you don’t know what it Is. Do you have the parents names? Is it common in your country to breed without papers? Is health testing required or done? Is there a shortage of good German Shepherds? Is there any way you can get the information from the breeder and register the parents yourself as well as the puppies? If not, I would never suggest this to most people as it goes against everything I believe about responsible breeding, but if you follow custom and you breed to sell dogs as pets, you might not need papers.


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## EdyMol (Aug 22, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> You can’t keep the lineage intact if you don’t know what it Is. Do you have the parents names? Is it common in your country to breed without papers? Is health testing required or done? Is there a shortage of good German Shepherds? Is there any way you can get the information from the breeder and register the parents yourself as well as the puppies? If not, I would never suggest this to most people as it goes against everything I believe about responsible breeding, but if you follow custom and you breed to sell dogs as pets, you might not need papers.


Nothing here is done as it should but I can be the change. There are a few breeders here that do it the right way. I would like to do DDR work lines and here they have more of Show Lines. When I got this puppy I was told parents were registered.

To answer your questions...

1. Is described in the post.
2. Described in the post.
3. Health testing should be done but if they arent keeping registration, they wont do this either.
4. There is actually a more GSD than you can buy but just a few have registrations.
5. Described in post.
6. I am looking to do work dogs. I train dogs.

Thanks for you response.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I missed that you can’t even get the parents names to check. How can you be sure the dog you have is 4 years old? Since you want to breed responsibly and you want to breed WL dogs, you would need a different dog to breed. She is a beautiful dog and looks well trained.

I‘m sure you know this now but the only way to know the parents are registered is to get a copy of the parents’ registrations before you buy the dog and be sure the parents named in the registration are the same parents of the puppy you are buying. Then register the puppy yourself.


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## EdyMol (Aug 22, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> I missed that you can’t even get the parents names to check. How can you be sure the dog you have is 4 years old? Since you want to breed responsibly and you want to breed WL dogs, you would need a different dog to breed. She is a beautiful dog and looks well trained.
> 
> I‘m sure you know this now but the only way to know the parents are registered is to get a copy of the parents’ registrations before you buy the dog and be sure the parents named in the registration are the same parents of the puppy you are buying. Then register the puppy yourself.


She is 8 months old now. Yes I am looking for the breeder but I hope something else could be done. I also heard I can register for different events then have a registration that way. Not sure how true that is. Never had the problem of unregistered dog.
As for the breeding, I think she is in the WL spectrum. Short hair, double coated, less curved back, but I am looking for a sable GSD. I am still in research for this. My other dogs were small breeds. Yorkshire and shih tzu. Now I have the time and the space to have and train bigger dogs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

no, your dog appears to be west german showline. registration to participate in events is completely separate from breed registry and will not help you in registering future litters and may even require that your dog be altered if i remember correctly.

bottom line... no registry on parents = no registry on puppies, ever.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Well....if you just want "papers," the so-called Continental Kennel Club in the U.S.A. sells "registration papers" for purebred-looking dogs based on their photos, through their "PAW (Picture and Witness) Registration." If it "looks like" a purebred, they'll apparently register it as such, for a fee, if it's at least 1 year old. In the U.S.A., it's not a registry that is used by any reputable breeders that I'm aware of--I see them listed on local backyard-breeder ads sometimes. You'll have to decide for yourself how valuable such "papers" would be in your country--I don't think they'd signal anything great for your reputation as a breeder in the USA though in high-end breed circles, but YMMV.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Oh, you said you got her 4 months ago when she was 4. I thought you meant she was 4 years, but you meant months. I agree with the other post, she is a West German Showline. So if you were able to get some kind of valid registration and breed her, she should be bred to another WGSL.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You should contact your countries kennel club. In the U.S., it's the American Kennel Club. Look for what is equivalent in your country. You need to find the breeder of your puppy and get her registration papers.

Before breeding, you need to prove she's breed worthy. Health testing for hips and elbows. DM testing. And you need to work and title her in some venue. Are there conformation shows in your country? IGP? Obedience?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

AERCAN Ecuador


Asociación Ecuatoriana de Registros Caninos




aercan.com


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Magwart said:


> Well....if you just want "papers," the so-called Continental Kennel Club in the U.S.A. sells "registration papers" for purebred-looking dogs based on their photos, through their "PAW (Picture and Witness) Registration." If it "looks like" a purebred, they'll apparently register it as such, for a fee, if it's at least 1 year old. In the U.S.A., it's not a registry that is used by any reputable breeders that I'm aware of--I see them listed on local backyard-breeder ads sometimes. You'll have to decide for yourself how valuable such "papers" would be in your country--I don't think they'd signal anything great for your reputation as a breeder in the USA though in high-end breed circles, but YMMV.


wow, i stand corrected.
so disappointing... i knew they were a subpar, alternative registry - but figured they’d be slight more discerning in who they accepted.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Fodder said:


> wow, i stand corrected.
> so disappointing... i knew they were a subpar, alternative registry - but figured they’d be slight more discerning in who they accepted.


I have heard really horrible things with regards to what they will register as purebred. Makes me really angry that they use the CKC initials.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I like ckc because it's small. IMO registries are just puppymills, so the bigger the registry...
but I digress...

ukc recognizes ckc, and akc recognizes ukc, so ckc>ukc>akc. Nothing to it.

sire: thuringer von schaffhausen

dam: wölfin vom hohenzollern

you're all set, bro: PAW Registration


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I like ckc because it's small. IMO registries are just puppymills, so the bigger the registry...
> but I digress...
> 
> ukc recognizes ckc, and akc recognizes ukc, so ckc>ukc>akc. Nothing to it.
> ...


are you referring to continental kennel club? as referenced previously in this thread... or canadian kennel club?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Registries aren’t puppy mills. They’re registries. And yes, the Continental Kennel Club is a joke. Puppy miller’s use it, along with APRI.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Fodder said:


> are you referring to continental kennel club? as referenced previously in this thread... or canadian kennel club?


both, actually; but the link I posted is for ckcusa

puppymill = USDA, and USDA = akc, therefore akc is THE biggest puppymill on the planet

case closed


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> ukc recognizes ckc, and akc recognizes ukc, so ckc>ukc>akc. Nothing to it.


This is not true. It's why some breeders will register with AKC and UKC. The Continental Kennel Club is a joke and everyone knows it.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

sv is a joke, and akc is an even bigger joke

ckcusa may be a joke as well, but it's definitely the smallest joke of the 3

in terms of _the amount of damage done to the breed_, ckcusa will never even begin to approach the big registries


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

The AKC is not a puppymill. They do not breed dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> sv is a joke, and akc is an even bigger joke
> 
> ckcusa may be a joke as well, but it's definitely the smallest joke of the 3
> 
> in terms of _the amount of damage done to the breed_, ckcusa will never even begin to approach the big registries


Berno are you in a mood again tonight?


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Can anyone guess why he promotes ckcusa lol.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

jakubnovotny said:


> Can anyone guess why he promotes ckcusa lol.


Did you get spanked?


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Did you get spanked?


No. But I hear my son did


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

jakubnovotny said:


> Can anyone guess why he promotes ckcusa lol.


At least he isn't calling it CKC. I find that really frustrating.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> At least he isn't calling it CKC. I find that really frustrating.


me too!

I like nkc as well and it's a little more performance focused than ckcusa. But the ckcusa gsd breed standard beats the nkc gsd breed standard, and ckcusa knows how to spell shepherd correctly, so ckcusa wins! Ukc recognizes both, so whichevers cheaper I guess?

ckcusa gsd standard:
*BREED GROUP 10: PASTORAL AND STOCK DOG BREEDS*
Proportions: Somewhat rectangular body proportions, with length of the body, measured from the point of the forechest to the point of the rump, being just slightly greater than the height at the withers. The ideal body-height-to-length ratio is approximately 4:5, or with the body exceeding the height by 10-17 percent. The body is deep, of good substance, and solid in bone. The German Shepherd is always presented in a hard, working condition. Males should appear masculine, being more substantial in size and mass, while females should appear more feminine and slightly less substantial. Neither should lack overall type.
*HEAD*
General Appearance: Somewhat mesaticephalic to slightly dolichocephalic skull-type, moderate in size, somewhat long, yet wedge-shaped when viewed from above or in profile. It is in proportion to the rest of the body. The length of the head, from tip of the nose to the occiput, is approximately equal to the length from the occiput to the withers. The topskull is broad, measured in front of the ears; it is as wide as it is long (from occiput to stop). In profile, the forehead is just slightly arched (never domed) from front or in profile. In profile, it may also appear as a straight sloped plane. A furrow extending from the stop and up the center of the topskull may be absent or barely perceptible. The head is clean-cut without excess skin or wrinkle.
Expression: Confident, keen, noble, watchful, and anticipating.
Stop: The stop is sloping, yet definite, and never overly pronounced or sharp.
Skull: The ideal muzzle-to-skull ratio is 1:1, with the topskull being equal in length to the muzzle.
The ideal muzzle-to-skull axis is parallel, or may be just slightly convergent.
Muzzle: The muzzle is long, full, broad, and deep, never snipy and weak or boxy from pendulous flews. Upper and lower jaws are equal in length, have good bone substance, appearing strong and well-developed, never appearing snipy or weak. The nasal bridge is fairly straight. The muzzle is equal in length to the topskull. The jaws are powerfully developed and strong.
Lips or Flews: Lips are clean and fit tightly over the teeth and jaws, revealing the wedged shape of the strongly defined muzzle. The lips are never loose or pendulous. The lips and flews are well-pigmented.
Nose: The nose is well-pigmented and black, or self-colored according to the coat in non-standard color varieties. The nostrils are well-opened and broad.
Cheeks: Powerfully muscled, giving substance to the face, but never excessively protrusive. The cheeks should not appear chiseled or coarse.
Dentition and Bite: Forty-two strong, clean, white teeth. Bite may be level, or scissor, or reverse-scissor. Contact must be made between the top and bottom incisors. Missing or broken teeth as a result of routine work is not to be penalized.
Eyes: Moderate in size, oval to open almond in shape, and may be set slightly oblique. They are medium to dark brown in color. The eye rims are well-fitted and well-pigmented. The eyes should never be large and round, or with exposed whites. The eyes are never bulging. There should be sufficient bone in the surrounding orbital sockets to protect the eyes.
Ears: Medium in size, firmly erect, thick-leathered, and set high on the skull. When alert, they face forward, in repose or in motion, they may be held back, neutral, or in a relaxed position. The ears are never long, overly large, tipped, drooped, rounded, or broken.
*BODY AND TAIL*
General Description: Strong, deep, of good substance, and powerfully muscled. The body should allow for strength, agility, stamina, and endurance. The body is never light, weedy, racy, rangy, heavy, or refined. Width at forequarters is approximately equal to the width at the hindquarters.
Neck: Moderate length allows for proud head carriage, strongly muscled with a slight arch. The neck tapers smoothly from the deeper and broader body toward the head. The neck is clean-cut and without excess skin, throatiness, or dewlap.
Chest: Deep, broad, but never wider than deep. The brisket is long, pronounced, and extends to the point of the elbows, accounting for 45-50% of the dog’s height at the withers. The forechest is well-developed, yet not overly protrusive.
Topline: Straight and level from slightly prominent withers to loin. The back is broad, strongly muscled, and straight, yet supple. The loin is taut, and may be flat and level (preferred), or just slightly sloped, yet supportive. The back is never swayed, roached, hunched, steeply inclined, “banana back,” or any variation other than straight. The “ski-slope” and German “high-rise” toplines are a type-extreme fad, are incorrect, and are not conducive in a functional working dog, therefore, this topline should be discouraged in dog breeding and in the show ring.
Croup: Broad and long. May be somewhat flat and level with the back, or just slightly and gently sloped, no more than 23 degrees to the horizontal.
Underline: May be slightly tucked-up present, or level to the horizon. The underline is taut and firm, without any indication of sagging or excess weight.
Ribs: Long, well-sprung, well-laid-back, oval-shaped, never barrel-chested or slab-sided.
Tail: Set neither high nor low on the croup. It is thick at the base and tapering toward the tip. It is carried in accordance with the dog’s mood and energy level, often in a downward-neutral position to level with the topline, but never tucked. It is of a medium length, with the tip of the last vertebrae extending to the hock joints, or lower, when held down. The tail may be straight, gently curved, or with a curve toward the tip.
*FOREQUARTERS AND HINDQUARTERS*
Forequarters: Forequarters are always in balance with the hindquarters. Forequarters are well angulated with well-laid-back shoulder blades. Shoulder blades are approximately equal in length to the upper arm and forearm.
Elbows: Elbows are close to the body. The distance from the withers to the brisket may be equal to, or just greater than, the distance from the elbows to the ground.
Forelegs: Frontal View: Straight, of good muscle, of solid bone, and parallel to one another.
Side View: The forelimbs appear straight with strong pasterns.
Pasterns: Never weak or broken.
Hindquarters: Upper thigh and lower thigh are equal in length, strong, sturdy, of solid bone, and well-muscled.
Rear View: When viewed from the rear, the rear pasterns are parallel to one another.
Side View: Good angulation will allow the rear toes to align with the point of the rump or within one to two paw-lengths behind the point of the rump, with the rear pasterns remaining perpendicular to the ground and parallel to one another.
NOTE: Extreme types that include the over-angulated pelvis and hindquarters that contribute to the “ski-slope” or German “high-rise” topline are incorrect. A true-to-standard dog is well-angulated without being over-angulated or “extreme” in any part. An unexaggerated German Shepherd dog should be capable of standing in a traditional stack used for any other working breed, with both rear pasterns set naturally under the dog, parallel to one another. (As opposed to the “German Shepherd Dog” or GSD stack, in which one hind leg is pulled forward and level with the front edge of the croup (or sheath in males). Preference is given to dogs capable of stacking naturally in a traditional stack (as opposed to the GSD stack). Good angulation will allow the rear toes to align with the point of the rump, or within one paw-length behind the point of the rump, with both rear pasterns remaining perpendicular to the ground and parallel to one another.
Stifle Joint: Well-angulated with a good bend to well-let-down rear pasterns.
Angulations: Angulation of hindquarters is always in balance with angulation of forequarters.
Feet: Oval to round, compact, with well-arched toes and tough pads.
*COAT*
Skin: Well-fitted, yet supple. The skin should never obstruct the outline of the dog.
Coat Type: The German Shepherd comes in two coat varieties: the standard smooth coat and the long coat.
Smooth-coat variety: Very dense, harsh, close fitting outer coat. Soft, dense undercoat. Short on the head, face, ears, and front of the legs, paws, and toes. Hair is slightly longer backside of legs, forming moderate "trousers," and, on neck, forming a slight ruff.
Long-coat variety: Dense, soft, long guard hairs, forming fringe on ears, tail, and legs forming bushy trousers on backside of haunches. Short on head, face, front side of legs, paws, and toes. Longer on coat, nearly forming a mane.
Coat Color or Pattern: CKC recognizes three color varieties of the German Shepherd breed: the standard color, the nonstandard color, and white.
Standard coat color variety: Solid black, black saddle with tan, black with tan points, black with running or creeping tan, all shades of agouti, wolf-sable, all shades of sable, fawn, all with or without (reserved) black mask.
Non-standard coat color variety: Liver, blue, brindle, brindled tan, brindled tan points, fawn with liver or blue mask.
Any of the standard or non-standard varieties with or without white markings (Panda).
White: Solid white with black points.
*MOVEMENT*
The original function of the German Shepherd required that the dog be capable of trotting tirelessly and effortlessly for long distances, as well as allowing for power and agility. Therefore, the German Shepherd must exhibit healthy trotting action. The “flying trot” is an acceptable gait for the German Shepherd breed, however, the over-extended action required by this gait is more fatiguing, and therefore, a standard trot will be favored over the over-extended flying trot. The characteristics of healthy structure are evident: when moving away, the forelegs and rear pasterns should remain parallel to one another. When viewing movement from the front, the forelegs should remain parallel, with elbows and paws moving neither in nor out. From the rear, the back pads should be visible when the rear legs are extended. As speed increases, the forelimbs and hindlimbs will converge to the center line of gravity. From the side, the topline should remain firm and level. Good reach of movement in the front allows the forepaw to extend out in a line with the nose. The width between the forefeet when extended should be approximately equal to the width between the hindfeet when extended, indicating balance, good reach, and good drive. Dogs that exhibit any sign of breathing or locomotive difficulty shall be disqualified from the show ring.
*TEMPERAMENT*
The German Shepherd breed is strong-nerved, fearless, self-assured, self-composed, confident, watchful, poised, and alert when necessary. He should never be timid, shy, nervous, anxious, or overly fearful (including fear-aggressive). He is expected to permit neutral and friendly interactions between his family/owner/handler and others, however, he himself is not overly-friendly, and may even be a bit aloof to strangers. The breed is physically capable of speed, power, agility, and endurance, and he is self-aware enough to know his capabilities and limits. This offers him a great deal of confidence. The German Shepherd is an extremely intelligent breed, capable of learning and discerning many tasks and activities. Any unprovoked aggressive or fearful behavior toward people is incorrect for this breed.
*FAULTS*
All dogs should be in proper healthy condition, free from disease or defect. Any departure from this description is considered a fault. Unless altered, all male dogs should have two fully descended testicles.

nkc gsd standard:
General Appearance - Medium in size. Strong, regal, alert, and intelligent stance

Head- The skull is broad with strong clean-out facial features giving it a look of nobility. The ears are set high and held erect when alert. The ears are medium in size, slightly pointed and open toward the front. The ears are never docked. The almond shaped dark brown/ black eyes are set rather diagonally. The top line of the long, strong muzzle is parallel with the skull’s top line. The jaws are very powerful with well developed teeth in a scissors bite.

Body- This dog is longer than tall. The back is straight; the chest is set deep with well sprung ribs. The hindquarters slope with strong powerful thighs. The forelegs are straight with oval as opposed to round bones. The feet are rounded and compact, dewclaws should be removed. The bushy low set tail is of medium length. The saber-like curl at the tip of the tail is accentuated and the tail is raised when the dog is in motion or excited….

Color- The coarse and dense outer coat of medium length, with a thick undercoat, varies in color. The rich, vibrant colors are the most desirable. White is an unacceptable color and will disqualify the dog in the show. The nose and short nails are black.

Size- Females: 22-24 inches // 65-70 pounds Males: 24-26 inches // 80-85 pounds

Temperament- This animal has an amazing ability to comprehend, retain and perform a variety of specialized functions, thus making it an excellent service oriented companion breed. Not only is this dog used as an aid to the blind, it serves in both the private sector and the military as guard / pursuit dogs; as they have a great sense of smell. While this dog makes for a wonderful affectionate, loyal, and obedient family pet; it is very active both mentally and physically, so benefits greatly from training and lots of attention from its owner / handler.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

If your dog has a tattoo or microchip, you may be able to find the registration that way. Otherwise without the parents and the breeders help, its not going to happen with an fci recognized registry. AKC does not recognize UKC registration, neither do foreign FCI kennel clubs. The UKC that is recognized by AKC is the British registry. I doubt that they recognize continental.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> me too!
> 
> I like nkc as well and it's a little more performance focused than ckcusa. But the ckcusa gsd breed standard beats the nkc breed standard, and ckcusa knows how to spell shepherd correctly, so ckcusa wins! Ukc recognizes both, so whichevers cheaper I guess?
> 
> ...


Looks like you're cooking "spam" again, son.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I was recently told, by a reliable akc source, that akc is like the parent org for ukc now. they handle akc's FSS, non reg pink paper imports, and all of it

this dog looks better than a lot of what I see sv and akc cranking out nowdays, so why not get her some papers?



berno von der seeweise said:


> sire: thuringer von schaffhausen
> 
> dam: wölfin vom hohenzollern
> 
> you're all set, bro: PAW Registration







I just don't get it? What's "so wonderful" about akc that everyone here feels the need to extoll it? You can't have it both ways. Either westminster embodies your ideal, or it doesn't.

if not, why do you espouse it?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I was recently told, by a reliable akc source, that akc is like the parent org for ukc now. they handle akc's FSS, non reg pink paper imports, and all of it
> 
> this dog looks better than a lot of what I see sv and akc cranking out nowdays, so why not get her some papers?
> 
> ...


Who are you talking about? Are you talking about kennel clubs or dog lines? You seem to putting a lot of words in people's mouths.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

as far as I know only 4 extant “lines” continue to persist

1. sv (_parent club in the breed’s home country_) fci “highline”

2. gsdca (_lance of fran jo_) akc “showline”

3. east/west/euro gumbo working type “line”

4. berger blanc suisse white “line”

nobody wants berno to be all wrong about this more than berno himself

if there’s another "line" out there somewhere, by all means, somebody,* PLEASE *enlighten me

international law already requires fci to regulate inbreeding, so fci began registering undocumented dogs based on “appearance” and/or “performance” designations. For the time being, in order to more or less start down a path toward “international compliance,” the afore mentioned akc>ukc>lesser us kc scheme was hatched. That situation will continue to “develop” over the coming decades, and I’m quite confident it’ll only grow more ridiculous as time marches on, because the inmates are obviously running that asylum. By now it should be readily apparent that I don’t discriminate against undocumented dogs or their offspring, at all; but you’ll never catch me importing one.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> as far as I know only 4 extant “lines” continue to persist
> 
> 1. sv (_parent club in the breed’s home country_) fci “highline”
> 
> ...


CKC American is an absolute joke. And people are too obsessed with the show ring. AKC is merely a registry at the end of the day and a far better registry than AmCKC. People go to it when they buy a dog with limited registration from AKC so they can still claim to sell registered puppies. It's a place for dishonest scammers plain and simple.

AKC has its flaws but as a registry it's the best we have in the US (varying by breed). A lot of dogs shown in UKC are dual registered with AKC the show ring is just better for them in UKC. But really I hate how conformation is set up so I don't care what style of dog wins in the ring in the differing kennel clubs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

disagree based on the sheer numbers, Kaz

there are far,_ FAR _many more dishonest scammers registering akc than all the other little usa kennel clubs _combined . _Not to mention all the "reputable" akc/fci breeders who breed known health issue$ 

 gsd health issues forum


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> disagree based on the sheer numbers, Kaz
> 
> there are far,_ FAR _many more dishonest scammers registering akc than all the other little usa kennel clubs _combined . _Not to mention all the "reputable" akc breeders who breed known health issues for profit.


I think you need a nap. Lol.
Your continental KC registers anything. And very deliberately feeds the CKC confusion.
Scammers exist everywhere! No one organization has a monopoly on them. But the continental registration came into existence for them. A move to allow people to charge premium price for knock offs. It also allows people to obtain registration for offspring of dogs whose breeders expressly forbid them to be bred. In signed contracts. So who is the scammer?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> disagree based on the sheer numbers, Kaz
> 
> there are far,_ FAR _many more dishonest scammers registering akc than all the other little usa kennel clubs _combined . _Not to mention all the "reputable" akc/fci breeders who breed known health issues for profit.


Well of course there are more scammers overall because it's a more popular and chosen registry. Just like how there are more unstable byb breeder dogs of common breeds. But lets say this. If you're going to a hospital are you going to go to a legitimate hospital that has had bad employees, or will you go to the hospital that hires all of the bad employees? (And to avoid arguing on this I will clarify bad employees as those who made unethical decisions that had no positive consequences.Giving patients meds they were allergic to because they didn't read the file and things of that nature. )

AMCKC is composed of people who are banned from AKC or find it easier to scam via CKC than AKC. So you're saying because something is less popular because people know its trash it's somehow better than an organization that will have bad apples because of how widespread it is? And again look at it as a registry. It's meant to keep track of pedigrees and bloodlines. CKC does not do that accurately and as such it is useless as a registry. Also I have NEVER seen an AKC registered puppy in a puppy store in my area, but I have seen CKC and UKC puppies. One litter was of schnauzer puppies CKC registered and somebody had their intact male stolen shortly (fit time frame breeding wise) before those puppies started appearing in stores. CKC encourages unethical behavior including animal theft. 

Could AKC be better? Yes of course but part of that is that the members and united kennel clubs would have to step up and dog people are too busy fighting with one another.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Kazel said:


> Well of course there are more [_akc_] scammers overall because it's a more popular and chosen registry.


agreed

I stand by my assertion that it all comes down to sheer numbers. Again, akc horror stories outnumber all the other little usa kennel club horror stories combined.

what do you think about united kennel club? Home | United Kennel Club (UKC)

German Shepherd Dog

Herding Dog Group

The goals and purposes of this breed standard include: to furnish guidelines for breeders who wish to maintain the quality of their breed and to improve it; to advance this breed to a state of similarity throughout the world; and to act as a guide for judges. Breeders and judges have the responsibility to avoid any conditions or exaggerations that are detrimental to the health, welfare, essence and soundness of this breed, and must take the responsibility to see that these are not perpetuated.

Any departure from the following should be considered a fault, and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dogs ability to perform its traditional work.

The tendencies toward exaggeration and steep angles are unacceptable. German Shepherd Dogs with unstable temperaments, sharply angulated croups, overly long front and rear pasterns, and hocks that are weak and wobbly are poor representations of this working breed. UKC is unwilling to condone the validity of using exaggerated specimens of this breed in a breeding program and, to preserve its health and vibrancy, cautions judges about awarding wins to these representatives.

HISTORY
The German Shepherd Dog is a relatively young breed, developed almost single-handedly in the first half of the twentieth century by a German cavalry officer, Max von Stephanitz, president of the Verein far Deutsche Schaferhunde S.V. Using a variety of German sheepdogs as his foundation stock, von Stephanitz developed a distinctive breed in a very short period of time, due in large part to the authoritarian practices of the German dog fancy at that time. Von Stephanitz emphasized utility and intelligence in his breeding program, enabling the German Shepherd Dog to switch easily from herding duties to other fields of work, particularly military and police work. The breed was just gaining notice in the United States when World War I broke out. All things German were shunned and popularity slumped. After the war, however, movie star Rin-Tin-Tin stimulated interest in the breed again. The striking good looks of this breed, combined with its remarkable intelligence and loyalty, have made it a favorite working and companion dog.

The German Shepherd Dog was recognized by the United Kennel Club in 1924.

GENERAL APPEARANCE
The German Shepherd Dog is a medium-sized, well-balanced, muscular dog, slightly longer than tall, with a medium length coat, erect ears, and a low-set natural tail that normally reaches to the hock and is carried in a slight curve like a saber. The outline of the German Shepherd Dog is made up of smooth curves rather than angles.

The head is in proportion to the size of the body, strong without appearing coarse or fine. Gender differences are readily apparent. The German Shepherd Dog should be evaluated as an all-around working dog, and exaggerations or faults should be penalized in proportion to how much they interfere with the dogs ability to work.

Disqualifications: Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid.

CHARACTERISTICS
The German Shepherd Dog is confident and fearless, willing to be approached, yet a certain level of aloofness towards strangers is acceptable. When working, the German Shepherd is alert and eager, adapting well to new tasks. Lack of confidence is a serious defect in the character of a German Shepherd. The structure of this breed was designed for efficient locomotion, particularly at the trot, so poor movement is another serious fault.

Disqualifications: Viciousness or extreme shyness.

HEAD
The head is proportional to the size of the dog, and cleanly chiseled. Males should appear masculine without coarseness; and females feminine without being overly fine. The skull and muzzle are of equal length, parallel to one another, and joined at a very slight stop. There is little or no median furrow.

SKULL
The skull is broad and only very slightly domed. In males, the skull is slightly wider than it is long; in females, the skull is slightly narrower. Viewed from the front, the skull tapers evenly from the ears toward the muzzle. The cheeks are just slightly rounded but do not protrude.

MUZZLE
The muzzle is long and wedge-shaped, with strong, well-developed jaws. In profile, the bridge of the muzzle is straight and parallel to the topline of the skull. Lips are tight and darkly pigmented.

Faults: Muzzle too short, blunt, weak, pointed, or overlong.

TEETH
The German Shepherd Dog has a complete set of evenly spaced, white teeth meeting in a scissors bite.

Faults: Overshot or level mouth; missing first premolars.
Serious Fault: Missing teeth other than first premolars.
Disqualifications: Undershot; wry mouth.

NOSE
The nose must be black, or self-colored in a liver or blue dog. A snow nose is acceptable but not preferred.
Disqualification: Total lack of nose pigment.

EYES
The eyes are as dark as possible, of medium size, almond-shaped, and set slightly obliquely. Expression is alert, calm, and intelligent. Eye rims are dark.

Fault: Protruding eyes.

EARS
Ears are erect, moderately pointed, of medium size, broad at the base, and set high. Ear leather is firm. When the dog is alert, the centerlines of the ears, viewed from the front, are perpendicular to the ground and parallel to each other.

Disqualifications: Cropped ears; drop or tipped ears.

NECK
The neck is relatively long but strong and muscular. The skin is tight. The German Shepherd Dog normally carries the head just a little higher than the shoulders, particularly when moving.

FOREQUARTERS
The shoulder blades are long, well muscled, well laid back, and laid flat to the body. The upper arms, also long and well muscled, join the shoulder blade at nearly a right angle. A straight line drawn from the withers to the ground should pass just behind the back of the foreleg.

FORELEGS
From the pasterns to the elbows, the forelegs are straight and strong with oval-shaped bones. The pasterns are strong and supple, sloping no more than 25 degrees. The elbows are neither close to the body nor out, but are set on a plane parallel to the body. The length of the forelegs should be just slightly more than half the height of the dog, measured at the withers.

Serious Faults: Pasterns slanted more than 25 degrees. Pasterns so long and weak that proper movement is compromised.

BODY
A properly proportioned German Shepherd Dog is longer (measured from prosternum to point of buttocks) than tall (measured from the withers to the ground) in a ratio of 10 to 9. The length is derived from proper construction of forequarters and hindquarters and not from length of back.

The line of the back slopes downward from the withers into a straight, strongly developed, and relatively short back. Ribs are long and extend well back, resulting in a short, broad loin. The croup is long and slightly sloping.

Viewed from the front, the chest is deep and well filled. From the side, the forechest extends in front of the forelegs and the brisket down to the elbows. Tuck-up is moderate.
Faults: Barrel ribs; ribs too flat; long loin.

Serious Faults: Any measure of a roached back. Shelly appearance.

HINDQUARTERS
Viewed from the side, the hindquarters are broad and muscular. The angulation of the hindquarters is in balance with the angulation of the forequarters. The rear pastern is short and strong, and should remain upright and functional. Powerful hindquarters are necessary to enable the effortless movement that is an essential feature of this breed. Rear pasterns should remain upright and functional.

Serious Faults: Over-angulated rear, with anything exaggerated beyond a mild slope. Rear pasterns so long and weak that proper movement is compromised.

FEET
Feet are round and tight, with toes well arched. Pads are thick and hard. Nails are strong and dark. Front dewclaws may be removed but are normally left intact. Removal of rear dewclaws is preferred but not mandatory. The feet should recoil cleanly from each stride.

Serious Fault: Feet that drag along the ground on recoil.

TAIL
The tail is set on low in a natural extension of the unexaggerated, slightly sloping croup. The tail extends at least to the hock joint. When the dog is relaxed, the tail hangs in a slight curve, like a saber. When the dog is excited or moving, the tail may be raised and the curve accentuated but the tail is never carried above a vertical line extending from its base. The coat on the tail stands outward, giving the tail a bushy appearance.

Dogs with docked or altered tails resulting from working injuries are not to be penalized.

Faults: A slight hook in the tail to the extent it mars the dogs general appearance.
Serious Faults: Tail too short; ankylosis.

COAT
The German Shepherd Dog is double coated. The outer coat lies close to the body and is dense and straight with harsh texture. A slight wave is acceptable in a particularly harsh coat. The undercoat is short, dense, and fine-textured. The coat on the body is of medium length but not so long as to detract from the dogs ability to withstand bad weather conditions. The coat is shorter on the head (including the inside of the ear), the legs, and the feet. The coat on the neck is longer and thicker, forming a slight ruff, particularly on some males. The hair on the back of the legs is longer and thicker, forming trousers on the hindquarters, and extending to the pasterns in front and the hock joint behind.

Serious Faults: Short, mole type coat; long coat that stands away from the body; soft coat; absence of undercoat.

COLOR
The German Shepherd Dog comes in many colors and white. In evaluating colored dogs, strong, deep colors are preferred. Nose, lips, and eye rims must have dark pigment, regardless of coat color. Color faults are minor in comparison to defects of type and structure.

Serious Faults: Pale, washed-out colors; blue; liver.
Disqualification: Albinism.

HEIGHT
Desirable height at maturity for males is 24 to 26 inches; for females, 22 to 24 inches.

GAIT
Absolute soundness of movement is paramount. Correct gait is an essential feature of the German Shepherd Dog. When trotting, it moves with a long, effortless, efficient stride that is driven by a powerful forward thrust from the hindquarters.

The rear leg, moving forward, swings under the foreleg and touches down in front of the point where the forefoot left an imprint. The result is that one rear leg passes outside its corresponding front leg and the other passes inside its corresponding front leg. This is a breed characteristic and should not be penalized as long as the body is straight in relationship to the direction of movement.

As the rear leg moves backward, the body is propelled forward. The front and rear feet remain close to the ground throughout. When trotting, the back remains firm and level with no superfluous vertical movement. Hocks should be strong and straight, turning neither in nor out as the dog moves. There should be no visible wobble to the hock. Neither front nor rear pasterns should strike the ground; this is an unacceptable exaggeration and an indication of incorrect movement. As the speed of the trot increases, there is a tendency to single track. Correct movement and soundness must be evaluated from front and rear as well as the side.

Serious Faults: Any fault that affects correct movement.

DISQUALIFICATIONS
(A dog with a Disqualification must not be considered for placement in a conformation event, and must be reported to UKC.)
Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid.
Viciousness or extreme shyness.
Albinism.
Undershot.
Wry mouth.
Total lack of nose pigment.
Cropped ears.
Drop or tipped ears.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

We’ve been over this before - GSDCA is the
parent club in the United States, it is NOT a “line”, nor is it a club exclusive to American Showlines. 

Two of my GSDs are about as straight-up working line as it gets, and both of them are registered with AKC and have/do/will continue to compete in GSDCA events.

ETA: In addition, I have used the AKC registration of one of my working line dogs to acquire a separate UKC registration in order to compete in UKC performance sports because I think they’re fun. She also has an ASCA registration number so she can compete on Aussie herding courses. None of those additional registrations change the sort of dog she is, they are only tracking numbers. 

Pedigree determines the lineage of a dog, NOT registration numbers.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

gsdca peds constitute a bloodline founded by "lance of franjo"

German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) - Grand Victors

German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) - Grand Victrixes

I've run them through the database. It's a bloodline. 

I don't get the "ckc scam" everybody keeps talking about? are you saying breeders misrepresent ckcusa puppies as "canadian imports?"


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> gsdca peds constitute a bloodline founded by "lance of franjo"
> 
> German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) - Grand Victors
> 
> ...


GSDCA is not a line. I don't know how many times you need to hear this. It is the breed club. Your looking at american show lines. As for the CKC scam, I don't understand how you don't see it. No reputable business makes a name resembling their competition. You want it to be unique. A kennel club pedigree is to guarantee the bloodlines of your dog are pure. That is what the AKC does for better or worse. Are there scammers using AKC registration? Yes. There are scammers everywhere. The amount of scammers using legit AKC registration is smaller than you make it out to be. Every breeder and dog registered with the Continental kennel club is a scam. I don't believe your statements about the FCI wanting to use unregistered dogs. That is a big reason for the differences between FCI dutch shepherds and KNPV dutch shepherds. As for AKC and UKC, the AKC does not care about the UKC. The UKC as set themselves up as an alternative to AKC with different priorities. The people I know that use UKC don't do it for the pedigrees. They do it because they like UKC events. As for AKC and FCI, their relationship really comes down to recognizing each others pedigrees. The AKC really does not care about what the FCI is doing or their rules. What proof do you have for your statements about the FCI?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't get the "ckc scam" everybody keeps talking about? are you saying breeders misrepresent ckcusa puppies as "canadian imports?"


For decades people have been told that purebred dogs in North America are registered AKC/CKC. Outside of Canada or a dog show few people realize that the C stands for Canadian. Then along comes Continental. They don't have to DO anything. Buyers see CKC registration in ads and assume it's all good. We have had whole threads about it.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> gsdca peds constitute a bloodline founded by "lance of franjo"
> 
> German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) - Grand Victors
> 
> ...


Berno, this is not a hard concept to grasp. American Showlines are bred in the United States the GSDCA is located in the United States. You should expect to see American line dogs on the American GSD Breed club website.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Are we helping the OP? This is all very interesting, but he needs a simple solution.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Are we helping the OP? This is all very interesting, but he needs a simple solution.


Good point but I think it was answered as simply as it could be in the first few comments. No registry from parents and no way to get papers from the breeder means no real registration for his female. I will say though there is such a thing as mail, emails, and online registration in some cases. If the breeder can actually register this female there's no reason he wouldn't be able to mail the papers to the OP unless they can't mail for some reason. 

If that is out of the question then it's OPs choice on breeding without registration or waiting until he gets a registered female to begin breeding. Whatever happens I just hope health testing is done and any dogs being bred pass the testing. Along with of course having truly stable temperaments.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Yes to all you said. It sounds like the breeder told him they were moving and were not going to do any more to register the dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I don’t claim to be an authority on ckc, but I’ve never heard of anybody “thought they were getting a canadian kennel club pup, turned out to be a continental kennel club pup.” If ckc were on trial and I were their attorney, I believe I might convince a jury “ckc” is no more of a “scam” than “nkc” or “ukc” or any other 3 letter registry.

As for any “breeding rights” issue, it’s up to a breeder to follow through on their spey neuter contracts. That’s what it means to be an “ethical breeder.” You can’t just check the limited registration box and call yourself “an ethical breeder.” There's a lot of leg work involved.

furthermore, when you say “gsdca lance of franjo bloodline is not a bloodline,” you say “I don’t know how to read a pedigree, and I don’t know what a bloodline is.” So please stop. It’s just pure foolishness.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don’t claim to be an authority on ckc, but I’ve never heard of anybody “thought they were getting a canadian kennel club pup, turned out to be a continental kennel club pup.”


but have you ever heard of anybody with a purebred _wire haired toy terrier_..with papers!? because i have.... and if you’d asked the girl what kennel club issued those papers, she’d have no idea what you were talking about.

there are ppl where the “c” matters and those where it doesn’t..... of course the latter aren’t going to make a fuss over what papers they thought they were getting - they don’t know the difference in the first place. anyone who knows better, avoids.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don’t claim to be an authority on ckc, but I’ve never heard of anybody “thought they were getting a canadian kennel club pup, turned out to be a continental kennel club pup.” If ckc were on trial and I were their attorney, I believe I might convince a jury “ckc” is no more of a “scam” than “nkc” or “ukc” or any other 3 letter registry.
> 
> As for any “breeding rights” issue, it’s up to a breeder to follow through on their spey neuter contracts. That’s what it means to be an “ethical breeder.” You can’t just check the limited registration box and call yourself “an ethical breeder.” There's a lot of leg work involved.
> 
> furthermore, when you say “gsdca lance of franjo bloodline is not a bloodline,” you say “I don’t know how to read a pedigree, and I don’t know what a bloodline is.” So please stop. It’s just pure foolishness.


But that is the point. They never knew the C stood for Canadian. Lol. I am Canadian, and in conversation no one ever says "My dog is registered with the Canadian Kennel Club". It's always just CKC.
And the breeding rights issue? Why should I have to spay or neuter? I signed a contract. Intact or not I gave my word to someone. To circumvent that by using an alternate registry so I can sell pups as registered is wrong on all counts.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don’t claim to be an authority on ckc, but I’ve never heard of anybody “thought they were getting a canadian kennel club pup, turned out to be a continental kennel club pup.” If ckc were on trial and I were their attorney, I believe I might convince a jury “ckc” is no more of a “scam” than “nkc” or “ukc” or any other 3 letter registry.
> 
> As for any “breeding rights” issue, it’s up to a breeder to follow through on their spey neuter contracts. That’s what it means to be an “ethical breeder.” You can’t just check the limited registration box and call yourself “an ethical breeder.” There's a lot of leg work involved.
> 
> furthermore, when you say “gsdca lance of franjo bloodline is not a bloodline,” you say “I don’t know how to read a pedigree, and I don’t know what a bloodline is.” So please stop. It’s just pure foolishness.


There's a huge difference between Lance of Franjo being a bloodline and GSDCA being a bloodline. But based on some things you've said do you really believe that or just want to stir the pot? Also he's also a Canadian dog or won in Canada anyway. So I could say that he's a Candian bloodline since it's at least his background which makes far more sense than being a GSDCA Bloodline. You don't call dogs who win Seiger SV bloodlines, you call the bloodline by the dog's name. Adding the GSDCA makes it inaccurate.

And again the point of registries is to track bloodlines and pedigrees, the amCKC allows dogs with no papers to be registered as long as they meet breed type. 3 Generations after a mix is all it takes if that in some cases to get a dog of decent enough breed type. At least with AKC they do or at least used to try harder to prevent mixes

Also again an issue with stolen dogs and amCKC due to them accepting dogs with no papers and in a lot of cases breeders have no recourse when buyers break their contracts. The limited registration was supposed to help as a deterrent. But now papers mean little to nothing to the average buyer when there's a $700 price difference between papers and no papers.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

wow! so there really is like "a canadian thing" about it? I had no idea?

where I come from "canadian kennel club" means fci and akc. Like it's just "a given." No confusion. No explanation required. No questions asked. Any attempt to "misrepresent" would be laughable. I've never even heard of such?



Kazel said:


> There's a huge difference between Lance of Franjo being a bloodline and GSDCA being a bloodline.


gsdca is the org that created the lance of franjo bloodline, by award



Kazel said:


> in a lot of cases breeders have no recourse when buyers break their contracts.


 a contract is a contract. It's called "co-ownership" until spey/neuter and it's pretty standard.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> wow! so there really is like "a canadian thing" about it? I had no idea?
> 
> where I come from "canadian kennel club" means fci and akc. Like it's just "a given." No confusion. No explanation required. No questions asked. Any attempt to "misrepresent" would be laughable. I've never even heard of such?
> 
> ...


The line is known as amercian showline, not gsdca line.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> wow! so there really is like "a canadian thing" about it? I had no idea?
> 
> where I come from "canadian kennel club" means fci and akc. Like it's just "a given." No confusion. No explanation required. No questions asked. Any attempt to "misrepresent" would be laughable. I've never even heard of such?
> 
> ...


How did they create the bloodline? Did they form a breeding kennel and start breeding Fran-Jo dogs? Or did the Fran-jo dog win shows and so people like in all cases of popular sire issues, get hooked on the idea of winning and starting breeding to those dogs in an effort to get the next show winner.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> where I come from "canadian kennel club" means fci and akc.


Absolutely is NOT The AKC or FCI! We are actually our own country with our own kennel club. Founded in the late 1800's.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

@berno von der seeweise 






About The Canadian Kennel Club | CKC







www.ckc.ca


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Fine. Oh, Canada! I certainly didn't mean to cause an _international incident_...



Kazel said:


> How did they create the bloodline? Did they form a breeding kennel and start breeding Fran-Jo dogs? Or did the Fran-jo dog win shows and so people like in all cases of popular sire issues, get hooked on the idea of winning and starting breeding to those dogs in an effort to get the next show winner.


who is responsible for awarding all those lance of franjo descendants? I'm not denigrating gsdca. Without their lance of franjo line, the breed will be reduced to 3 lines instead of 4.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

@berno von der seeweise

Also purebred dogs sold in Canada must be registered. amCKC I wonder it it was maybe trying to capitalize on that.






Breeding Dogs | CKC







www.ckc.ca


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