# Von Giliannes - Belgian breeder. spit some thoughts?



## Arkangel_BE

Hello again,

So on my research i found this one that i like:
maybe more then the previous one...

Daizy Von Giliannes

6 geneneration pedigree for Daizy von Giliannes - German Shepherd Dog

X

Glenn Vom Haus Valkenplatz

Glenn vom Haus Valkenplatz - working-dog.eu


what would you think of the Zorro vom laager wall - Fado vom karthago - fero - lord vom gleisdreieck combination?

Some nice ddr blood in it i assume?


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## JakodaCD OA

All my ddr dogs have had Lord in their peds it's what I look for.

I also had a Zorro grandson, and that dog was the best ever..I tend to stick with dogs that have those two in their backgrounds because I've liked what I got from them.


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## Arkangel_BE

JakodaCD OA said:


> All my ddr dogs have had Lord in their peds it's what I look for.
> 
> I also had a Zorro grandson, and that dog was the best ever..I tend to stick with dogs that have those two in their backgrounds because I've liked what I got from them.


nice! thank you!

could you specify a little what you liked about them? maybe tell me a little about their character? 

thank for your input jakoda.


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## Mrs.K

It's a mix of west and east by the way. 

I am surprised to see orly in the 4th generation, it is hard to come by him these days. **** good dog and producer. I don't really remember Maike but I do remember Gitta. She was a good bitch.


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## wolfstraum

It is a real mish mash....lots of notable dogs in the 3rd through 6th gens.....sort of an odd combo of lines....some dogs I really like, and then some I am not sure why you would combine.....maybe the breeder is going on the dogs characters and drives and not thinking about pedigrees at all....many breeders are of that philosophy when choosing breeding pairs....

I also have Lord in my one female family....and like the looks, the tracking drives and the stability it brings....but not sure that Manto combined with the female is somewhere I would go.....

Lee


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## björn

The brother to the mother(ortha) of glenn v haus valkenplatz was imported to sweden and has plenty of offspring here, one of his many offspring I saw last weekend in the GSD championship in IPO, higest protectionscore and will represent sweden in WUSV. His pedigree and performance on that trial, handsome male with pretty much DDR-dogs on his mothers side too,
Gråmanns Rocco - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1

I love what you Swedes have done to and for the breed. I know I am generalizing, but your approach to genetic and the phenotype of the breed resonates with me. Wish your country was closer.....lol


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## cliffson1

I love that protection routine!!!! Yeah yeah I know his butt did not touch Thr ground on some sits....whatever! But his transports, clean calm, looking straight ahead ready to apprehend or ready to mrespond to a counter command from the owner. No hyperactive repeated forging. Nothing stylish but very very functional and real. I'm sure the Sch gods can nitpick the performance, but I saw a rock solid routine.


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## carmspack

short answer -- I prefer this pedigree also. Beyond prefer - really really like !!

I like the female -- very strong pedigree , love seeing a GSD in KNPV with met lof !!! A strong female is such a good foundation for the next generation. In addition this male Iwan has another dog proven through KNPV on 'his' mothers pedigree , power through the females. When you see this thema you see there is a deliberate management of having and keeping the good and not seeking to compensate or bring something in . They have it. 
Harro with his Racker , more herding , excellent source for tracking, more Bernd through Eros Busecker Schloss . Harro appears several times. You are keeping the power to work in check with biddability , ability to yield and work with and not just for , intelligence and good instincts.
Further along you have Gibsy Alten Wassermuhle , with some of my favourite animals Mira Iris, Hassan , holding resources to Bernd through haus Himpel which goes back to one of the better old herding foundation lines. Power/Control. 
Gildo, Dreschler (under appreciated) , Zorro .
At the same time within this pedigree you have kept some old herding lines through Uwe Kirschental , and character and herding through Bernd Lierberg .
Even like Ary von Kleinen Taller in there bringing in herding . I had real good experience with him and he is in the background of some of my dogs. I have always liked his streamlined body V Ary vom kleinen Taller - German Shepherd Dog . That he was bred to a Bernd daughter Winny , who repeats on the same generation through the sire's family is a bonus. Always an eye on character and stability. 

this is a really strong female, and with that more than half the battle has been won.

So is has been / will be bred to Glenn vom haus Valkenplatz who is not on the pedigree data base . To make it easier to follow , his sire , Mic v d Kine is and this is his pedigree Mic von der Kine - German Shepherd Dog. Love Manto Kahlenbach , love the potential when you combine strong tracking with old herding , which has been a theme throughout the females (Daizys) pedigree . Troll brings in the Liergergs - a click of a breeding , best of Fero . Enno Beilstein worthy of a study on his own. In this pedigree of Mic there is excellent use of Busecker Schloss . Ignaz through Mink . Seigo (Bernd source).
That was the sire of Glenn vom haus Valkenplatz.

Here is his mother's pedigree in the same format. Ortha vom Haus Valkenplatz - German Shepherd Dog - Aron known as a producer , brings Racker Itztal and Urs Hopfenstrasse, through this sire Aron Granit Rose.

Interesting again that the female side of the pedigree shows strength of character -- a female with a KNPV . Proof of the pudding - a female is as good as she produces -- and here is one of her sons , randomly chosen "Hassan" --wow--- Hassan Vom Haus Valkenplatz - German Shepherd Dog -- wow -- should be a new title . It was totally random - I saw the little image of a black dog which reminded me of my Hektor so opened up on him.
Then you go to investigate what the mothers littermates are and you have brother V Onix vom Haus Valkenplatz - German Shepherd Dog and SG Omar vom Haus Valkenplatz - German Shepherd Dog
Tess vom Haus Valkenplatz - German Shepherd Dog
This kennel that owns this female is making some really good breed combinations. Good on them.
Many resources to the herding here also , Perry Beilstein, Racker , Uran Kirschental , Bert v h Knufken , Bernd and Bodo Lierberg, Mutz and Marko, more Gildo (arek stoffelblick).

So you have the ingredients for rock solid , willfull dogs that should have mental endurance, high thresholds, not excitable nor reactive, active aggression, and if trained as a partner , not so much through bribes , but allowing natural talents to expose , then catch them and put them to use , you have a best chances for good dog here. I would not go kooky happy nuts to get out on the schutzhund field right away , young as possible . There are so many older type lines here , the older style , that do best when you live with the dog as a normal dog and show them the world - then with maturity you train . The good stuff just keeps on coming . Then if you train you have to go to a club that will bring the dog out in a non-prey-monkey way because this dog is going to be more real more working . A good decoy with a good read and prescence will bring the dog to its best .

So where are these pups -- seriously , who is the breeder.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Mrs.K

> I like the female -- very strong pedigree


She's a genetic treasure. :wub:


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## carmspack

Cliff look at the performance , the speed and clarity with which the dog leaves with for the first apprehension (marker 2:50)


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## cliffson1

Trust me Carmen, I noticed ! The clearness and calmness, and power is typical of dogs you used to see. The kind of dog that is calculating the amount of power and intensity that is needed to handle situation with an ability to ratchet it up IF NECESSARY! Balance,balance,balance in all parts of the routine. The ability to handle the task and be completely tuned in to handler at same time. A pair!
No leakage of drives, reckless energy, unneeded mintensity. Just a real nice dog and routine to me.


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## wildo

cliffson1 said:


> Trust me Carmen, I noticed ! The clearness and calmness, and power is typical of dogs you used to see. The kind of dog that is calculating the amount of power and intensity that is needed to handle situation with an ability to ratchet it up IF NECESSARY! Balance,balance,balance in all parts of the routine. The ability to handle the task and be completely tuned in to handler at same time. A pair!
> No leakage of drives, reckless energy, unneeded mintensity. Just a real nice dog and routine to me.


Seriously- you guys amaze me! I wish I could watch and see what you see! Cliff- I may save that video to my phone, and if I ever see you again- I'm going to have you watch it with me and you can point out everything! :thumbup:


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## Tejasjeff

Valkenplats is arguably one of the top 5 working kennels in Holland right now.
Glen Valkenplatz is competing in the Dutch national championship this weekend.


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## björn

Cliff, the judge also liked the dog very much, near the ideal dog in his opinion. This dog also has a sister that is competing at the championship in the swedish protectionprogram this weekend, so this litter is probably the most sucessfull as far as sportperformance goes from omar v haus valkenplatz so far.

Found another video of his obedience and protectionwork in a big IPO-competition some months ago,


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## Arkangel_BE

thank you carmspack for your well appreciated breakdown!!
I was thinking you'd like this pedigree...

finally found one you agree with me on


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## carmspack

so if I wanted more information about the litter I would contact who, what web site ?


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> so if I wanted more information about the litter I would contact who, what web site ?



I assume you are on working-dog.eu? 

Zwinger von Giliannes: Zucht von Leon von der Staatsmacht und Daizy von Giliannes bei Working-dog.eu


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## onyx'girl

björn said:


> Cliff, the judge also liked the dog very much, near the ideal dog in his opinion. This dog also has a sister that is competing at the championship in the swedish protectionprogram this weekend, so this litter is probably the most sucessfull as far as sportperformance goes from omar v haus valkenplatz so far.
> 
> Found another video of his obedience and protectionwork in a big IPO-competition some months ago,
> SCHÄFERSLAGET 2012 MED TEAM TÖLLSJÖ - YouTube


:thumbup:


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## carmspack

Arkangel can you now do a favour for me.
Years ago I was friends with a Swedish woman who went under the kennel name of Brigadens. She had a breeding to Greve Goliat "Zeb" who was police dog of the year 2000 for saving his handlers life when a stadium full of angry soccer hooligans went on rampage. His owner was unconscious and the crowd was ready to stomp on him, through chairs. This dog held every one away , fearless , until more help came. it´s a son of Jack Stiegler Hof who will be the father of the pups. Whio´s Greve Goliat ("Zeb") is his name.
You can look at Blekinge police departments homepage for some pictures of him.
clik.to
When on the homepage click on the blue button on the right : Årets polishund 2000 Ther you can find some pictures of Zeb and some text on Swedish 
Generally it says that he has incrediable drives, strong fight and that he never gives up.
He was awarded "policedog of year 2000" because he is a an absolute complete policedog with super tracking ability and work in crimescenes. 
His pedigree is.


Fels v Kemmlerblick - Lex Aspenhaus
Dux v Zinnsteig
Elfe vd Jahnstadt - Durbas Haus Himpel
Jack v Stiegler Hof
Golf v Ritterberg - Eggo Ammerberg
Danka Schieferschloss
Käty v Bärenbrusch - Ilka´s Duran
*Whios Greve Goliat* 

Odin v Andershofer Ufer - Frei Baruther Land
Silverpilens Nix
Silverpilens öja -Pilfalkens Qroy - Cito vd Sandhol - Aro Worringer Reitweg - Vello Sieben Faulen
Whio´s Chic Cherie Ina Hembachwald -Valet Busecker Schloss
Chax ******
Chax Jatruice
Cherie

Im really glad your dogs are doing great, and know how proud you must be.
Looked at Rkiv on his homepage, and he sure was a beautiful boy.
Very nice expression. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so something happened which prevented her from sending the dog? that I forget -- I am thinking maybe they were longhair and she wanted to send the "BEST" 

So the next dogs we were discussing was a military dog IDEX , which needed special permission form the government to approve a breeding .

The other consideration was One of the males I´m concidering to use is named Marhöjs Kubik, he took a 280 out of 300 score on the temperament test.
You know the average is about 170p for a male.
Or his litter brother Marhöjs Kastor, Military Police dog. Only offered to selected females.
They are 4,4-5 Odin v. Andershofer Ufer.
The combination will give 5,5,6-5,5,6 on Odin v. anderhofer Ufer.
Their mother is a litter sister to Likatorps Baxe that I was considering before.
The entire Marhöjs K - litter is A hips and clear elbows as is our W - litter.
I will let you know when we have a female in heat, and what male she will be bred to if you are interested Kastor. 


this takes us back 10 - 11 years ago when there was still the shock and aftermath of 2001 


what are your best working lines in Sweden ?

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com 

Marhojs Kubik or his military brother


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## carmspack

look Cliff Jack v Stieglerhof - German Shepherd Dog 

look at the mother line --


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## cliffson1

Yes Carmen that is definitely a line of old DDR dogs that brought good natural herding nd working traits. Whenever you have Bern thru Held I am interested. Also a lot of other good resources. Nice!


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## Arkangel_BE

Carmen,

For more info about this litter you have to contact Von Giliannes, they are the breeder of this litter.
This litter is born on 15 august in Belgium.

their website: Von giliannes - duitse herdersDemo (not working in english)


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## Arkangel_BE

carmspack said:


> Arkangel can you now do a favour for me.
> Years ago I was friends with a Swedish woman who went under the kennel name of Brigadens. She had a breeding to Greve Goliat "Zeb" who was police dog of the year 2000 for saving his handlers life when a stadium full of angry soccer hooligans went on rampage. His owner was unconscious and the crowd was ready to stomp on him, through chairs. This dog held every one away , fearless , until more help came. it´s a son of Jack Stiegler Hof who will be the father of the pups. Whio´s Greve Goliat ("Zeb") is his name.
> You can look at Blekinge police departments homepage for some pictures of him.
> clik.to
> When on the homepage click on the blue button on the right : Årets polishund 2000 Ther you can find some pictures of Zeb and some text on Swedish
> Generally it says that he has incrediable drives, strong fight and that he never gives up.
> He was awarded "policedog of year 2000" because he is a an absolute complete policedog with super tracking ability and work in crimescenes.
> His pedigree is.
> 
> 
> Fels v Kemmlerblick - Lex Aspenhaus
> Dux v Zinnsteig
> Elfe vd Jahnstadt - Durbas Haus Himpel
> Jack v Stiegler Hof
> Golf v Ritterberg - Eggo Ammerberg
> Danka Schieferschloss
> Käty v Bärenbrusch - Ilka´s Duran
> *Whios Greve Goliat*
> 
> Odin v Andershofer Ufer - Frei Baruther Land
> Silverpilens Nix
> Silverpilens öja -Pilfalkens Qroy - Cito vd Sandhol - Aro Worringer Reitweg - Vello Sieben Faulen
> Whio´s Chic Cherie Ina Hembachwald -Valet Busecker Schloss
> Chax ******
> Chax Jatruice
> Cherie
> 
> Im really glad your dogs are doing great, and know how proud you must be.
> Looked at Rkiv on his homepage, and he sure was a beautiful boy.
> Very nice expression.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> so something happened which prevented her from sending the dog? that I forget -- I am thinking maybe they were longhair and she wanted to send the "BEST"
> 
> So the next dogs we were discussing was a military dog IDEX , which needed special permission form the government to approve a breeding .
> 
> The other consideration was One of the males I´m concidering to use is named Marhöjs Kubik, he took a 280 out of 300 score on the temperament test.
> You know the average is about 170p for a male.
> Or his litter brother Marhöjs Kastor, Military Police dog. Only offered to selected females.
> They are 4,4-5 Odin v. Andershofer Ufer.
> The combination will give 5,5,6-5,5,6 on Odin v. anderhofer Ufer.
> Their mother is a litter sister to Likatorps Baxe that I was considering before.
> The entire Marhöjs K - litter is A hips and clear elbows as is our W - litter.
> I will let you know when we have a female in heat, and what male she will be bred to if you are interested Kastor.
> 
> 
> this takes us back 10 - 11 years ago when there was still the shock and aftermath of 2001
> 
> 
> what are your best working lines in Sweden ?
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com
> 
> Marhojs Kubik or his military brother


Hello,

I surely want to do a favor for you. But I'm unsure what you are requesting for... 
could you put it on email or private msg?


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## carmspack

the request was just to say something of those lines to add to the information bank on foreign dogs that are more obscure , yet very valuable , and should be used 

we only hear of the dogs coming from the sch h sport field , yet there are so many others not as advertised or promoted , whether real herding or police or any real work that have so much to offer and may be the balancing that will be needed at some point

we need to see it to get a full picture of the breed


so is teven meaning male or female?


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## björn

Carmspack, I suppose your question was directed to me because I´m from sweden. Yes, whios greve goliat was used quite a lot in his days, as was his father jack v stieglerhof, quite common in the swedish workinglines. I guess it´s hard to say what lines are best, depending on the use I suppose, many different lines also. But as a generalization dogs with much swedish blood for many generations are seldom so hyper and preydriven like some of todays SCH-lines of dogs, breed for different sports and purposes. More the stable type like the dog I posted videos of. 

I´m not 100% sure, but I think Idex you spoke of is the policedog you can see in this pedigree, a dog with both greve goliat and Idex, and besides jack stieglerhof there is another german import, arry v schloss zweibruggen, arry and jack is probably the most used importdogs from the 80s you see in the swedish lines(dogs with mostly swedish breed dogs for many generations),
Bruksmarkens Hassel - German Shepherd Dog


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## Arkangel_BE

carmspack said:


> the request was just to say something of those lines to add to the information bank on foreign dogs that are more obscure , yet very valuable , and should be used
> 
> we only hear of the dogs coming from the sch h sport field , yet there are so many others not as advertised or promoted , whether real herding or police or any real work that have so much to offer and may be the balancing that will be needed at some point
> 
> we need to see it to get a full picture of the breed
> 
> 
> so is teven meaning male or female?


teven = female
reu = male


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## cliffson1

@Bjorn.....the type dog you reference....steady, solid, working, not hyper or too prey driven, is the same type dog I have referenced on this forum for YEARS. Hard enough to work, safe enough for family, balanced and strong....you see less and less of these dogs in show ring or trial field. THAT'S why I have respect for the breeding philosophy there. Many people think that these dogs are myths, still others think they are no longer available, but they are out there, they just require a commitment to breeding for utility and not show/sport. Bravo for you guys....haven't got caught up in the hype!


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> steady, solid, working, not hyper or too prey driven, is the same type dog I have referenced on this forum for YEARS. Hard enough to work, safe enough for family, balanced and strong....you see less and less of these dogs in show ring or trial field. THAT'S why I have respect for the breeding philosophy there. Many people think that these dogs are myths, still others think they are no longer available, but they are out there, they just require a commitment to breeding for utility and not show/sport.



Cliff - they are here - rare true! But here.....the Bern/Held/Golf...coming down through House Himple dogs specifically....and they are not hyper, prey monsters..but balanced, strong and solid...hard in the work...and super for family...Interesting that Burga was a 2-2 on Bernd Lierburg! And she was reportedly one of the best producing females of her era...

6 geneneration pedigree for SG (1-US) Kyra vom Frolich Haus - German Shepherd Dog

The herding instinct is strong....Kyra, Csabre and now the opportunity to title in HGH with Kira....who is also more than capable of being dual titled in schutzhund....easy to train, ball drive, but real dogs, not prey monsters...

Lee


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## onyx'girl

cliffson1 said:


> @Bjorn.....the type dog you reference....*steady, solid, working, not hyper or too prey driven*, is the same type dog I have referenced on this forum for YEARS. Hard enough to work, safe enough for family, balanced and strong....you see less and less of these dogs in show ring or trial field. THAT'S why I have respect for the breeding philosophy there. Many people think that these dogs are myths, still others think they are no longer available, but they are out there, they just require a commitment to breeding for utility and not show/sport. Bravo for you guys....haven't got caught up in the hype!


I believe I have one of these, but I don't believe he'll score well on the IPO field. He isn't flashy enough. However, I'd take him any day over some of the sport dogs I see in training.


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> I love that protection routine!!!! Yeah yeah I know his butt did not touch Thr ground on some sits....whatever! But his transports, clean calm, looking straight ahead ready to apprehend or ready to mrespond to a counter command from the owner. No hyperactive repeated forging. Nothing stylish but very very functional and real. I'm sure the Sch gods can nitpick the performance, but I saw a rock solid routine.


Finally was able to get YouTube to download onto my phone. Very nice dog!!! This is the type of dog that smart breeders use. 

Cliff, you need to get out more.  The SchH gods I train with would see the quality of this dog and appreciate the dog for who he is. Yes, just like you, they would see the places where points might be taken, but that is only a small part of the whole.


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## Vandal

There are a couple of things that caught my eye about this dog. First, the guarding. He stands in front of the helper vs sitting. Some of the best dogs I have ever seen, work this way and each one of those dogs brought a level of seriousness to the work that was quite clear, just as it is here. I have owned dogs over the years and have some now, who do not want to sit in front of the helper. For me, that's simply ideal.

He flies after the helper on the escape and when the attacks come, he really brings it. He accelerates into the helper on the attack out of the back transport and the courage test you can see the power, even though he doesn't leave the ground 20 feet away from him, ( something so many finds desirable now). You can see the serious in this style as well but he is really very compliant. That leads me to my next SchH myth rebuke that hard, tough dogs are difficult to control. I have never known that to be the case, the serious dogs are much more willing to work with the handler IF they have the right genetics..

I actually think there are dogs like this still but not common, just like they were not that common years and years ago. We can pretend that all the dogs were just great back then but they were not. They were different, and overall better than many we see now in that protection was REALLY protection, but the great dogs were not "common". We saw less balance in the dogs then, just like now. However, it was different in that the dogs were all trained too much on the "defense" side of things and the control was not there. Now, we see the pendulum has swung all the way to the other side where there is perfect control, ( and ridiculous circus type obedience), but the power( and use of the protective instinct in the dogs), is simply not there. We watch the dogs now with suspicion because the training is hiding so much of what might be bad but in my opinion, can also be the good side of the dogs. 
I think people have become so RIDICULOUS about being flashy and throwing in that kind of silly obedience in the middle of protection, it takes away from the performance. In this video, you can watch and actually see who the dog is, without being distracted, ( or disappointed in my case...lol...), because of the "side show" quality people insert into protection now. The handler throws in some flash but again, it is nothing that takes away from the dog himself. 

One last thing about SchH...I have complained pretty loudly about what it is now. However, I think if you show up with a good dog, who is not flashy but shows correctly...just like in this video, you can get high points. This dog got a V, so, the idea that you can't score well without the flash, is simply not correct. There are judges out there who appreciate good dogs. They are not usually easy judges and are therefore not used much by SchH clubs but those are the more enjoyable judges to show under if you care about who your dog is and want that aspect emphasized.

As for Carmen's comments about Enno Beilstein...best GSD I have ever seen. It was said by many Germans it was a mistake he left Germany. If he had stayed, maybe people would be more excited about him but this was really one of the great dogs of all time, for so many reasons.


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## GSDAlphaMom

Amen Vandal!


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## cliffson1

Lisa, I go to local trials, I go to regional trials( in my region), I go to the nationals when on the east coast or as far as Indiana, Ohio, where should I be going?.....lol


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## Liesje

Start with visiting Lisa's club!


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## cliffson1

What will I see different at her club:thinking:


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## lhczth

I am saying that there are people, especially in my region, that appreciate these dogs. They are able to look past some minor point deductions and see the real dog. I didn't say they all own these types of dogs now or you will see them everywhere. 

I train with these people on a regular basis. I go out to eat with them, I sit and chat dogs with them. I see what they own, what they have owned in the past and I listen to what they say. 

Thank you, Lies, but I would not consider any member of our club a SchH god.


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## Liesje

cliffson1 said:


> What will I see different at her club:thinking:


Me of course


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## cliffson1

There are people here in the good ole East that would recognize a good dog like that.....but being as there are no Sch Gods in your club, Lisa, I'm obviously not referring to them. I am more referring to the type of training, emphasis, and scoring I often see at trials. I keep seeing another type dog and training that seem to be rewarded at trials. My bad.....times have changed and the sport is back to looking for power and steady over speed and choreography.
Thanks!


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## cliffson1

Btw, I would love to come to you and Lisa's club to train and watch you train....would love to pick Lisa's brain on some specific west working dogs over the years....my comment was more in reference to what is type of dog I see a lot of today as opposed to individual people and their knowledge.


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## Liesje

I gotcha Cliff, I'm just messing around. I'm no SchH god, just a minion! My SchH dog is not one that responds to the type of training and handling that gets those flashy points so luckily I couldn't train that way even if I wanted to. For me the value of owning dogs is in the training and working together. If I can step out on the field in a trial and get a high G or SG then I'm totally satisfied with that. I mean, if my boss comes over to me at work and says "very good!" I'm happy with myself and proud of myself. The same is true for my dog. I do not train to compete for the top spots I just train and hope that I can show off my dog for what he is and do as well in trial as we do in training. If the top scoring competitors are focused on flash and points, I guess I'm OK with that to an extent. At least, I've never felt my dog was scored unfairly because he is not that type (and he's a showline). So far I felt he got what we earned at his SDA and SchH trials.


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## lhczth

You are always welcome.


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## carmspack

I think when you take a dog like "this" to training they don't recognize the virtues and have difficulty training . My experience with a few that went the SchH route , and that included "Chunko" who went to Nationals and was "'Decoys Choice" and who was always signaled out and commented on for his real power -- yet this dog was so stable immediately after the protection routine a 10 year old could walk him back to his families table -- with the dog having full manners .

They want to make this into "that" something that they are familiar with , more prey, more craziness, taking activity to indicate being in drive. 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## björn

Cliff, just want to say that there are some lines that are more "sportier" here also depending on what type of activities and goals the breeders have. I guess this is also true for the rest of EU. The biggest difference is that basically all in EU breeds for SCH, but in sweden there are other sports that have influenced the breedings more before SCH even started to come around here. So it´s more a mix of different sports or servicedogs used. 

I may be wrong but it seems today some dogs get quite a lot of breedings just because they are flashy in SCH, they may fly into the sleeve but doesn´t really show anything more that is impressive. Then there is of course also dogs that are flashy but also seems to have much of everything. Maybe a problem is if to many breeds to the sportier dogs that lacks in other areas, or those dogs that that are labeled good or even extreme but really aren´t that different from many other dogs you see in SCH.

A rather typical GSD from primarly swedish workinglines in many generations is this one, no couch potato but not so lively that some of the more sportier dogs seems to be, doing some form of norwegian mental test here,
Huldrans Herax - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack

I do have a line with Zunderland and haus Sevens dogs - KNPV met lof (Tarik - later to become a police dog in New Jersey). In my digging around for information I found that Zunderland has a reputation for hard intense dogs , "
good nerves , is handler hard ( which is NOT handler aggressive ) has a good balance of intense prey, fight, defense, hunt and hardness in all situations. " 

I found that they are handler hard , high pain threshold and forgiving , not handler aggressive . 

The Norwegian mentality test looks like an Ingmar Bergmann movie - the spooks in the woods, the thoughts about the end of it all --


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## cliffson1

Bjorn from your mouth to my ears....lol. People get offended when I talk about "sporty" dogs, like they don't exist, or are rare. Nothing is absolute, but the breeding you are talking about in Sweden from older lines is exactly what I am talking about. I just like balanced dogs naturally, biddable naturally, and nothing over the top except nerve.


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## wildo

That temperament test is one of the most bazaar things I've ever seen!!! So creepy! So weird! Yet strangely awesome! I wonder if that dog passed the test. Sure seems like it. I know there were a few sections of that test that I don't think my dog would react well with. Thanks for sharing!


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## robk

That test was very creepy! I felt like I was watching some weird movie.


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## JakodaCD OA

OMG I would LOVE to do one of those tests!! How COOL !!! and nice dog, he can come live with me


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## wildo

Does anyone know why they let the dog off lead once the creepy people had finished approaching? How does the dog decide they are no longer a threat? Isn't it dangerous since the dog could still view them as a threat? Or maybe in some way this demonstrates the balance in the dog?


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## cliffson1

The dog doesn't read or discern a threat at that time.


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## lhczth

And, at least with the two white "ghosts", the dog didn't want to engage the threat.


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## Vandal

I would be interested in hearing the results of this test... for this dog. How he is rated. Is this dog considered the less " sporty" type and is this what people are calling balanced? I , of course, have my opinions but wonder how the behaviors here are rated by the testers.


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## carmspack

I wonder how that dog scored .

The following is putting a fine point on things , but I hope you will see how they add up.
Overall I want to see the dog more "with" the handler.
Looking for hints of genetic obedience , capacity to work with and for - off lead and at distance , willingly.

This first point is that there is a bit of a disconnect between dog and handler . I know that the handler has to be neutral so that the dog's behaviour is not influenced, that the results are what comes naturally from the dog. So if go to reference 1:37 to 2:15 excercise is find the handler who has run and hidden . The dog smartly pays attention to her leaving. When released dog departs in a straight line with good speed . Obviously he finds her . Here is where I would want to see something different . The handler in the bush has been found which initiates her exiting and returning to starting point evaluators. She breaks through the bush but the dog is no where to be seen for several seconds. He is still back in the bush snooping around with something that caught his interest. Who knows what the find was like. Did the dog find but blow right by her. On the walk back the dog is all over the place . 
Compare 
This black dog keeps looking to the handler , wants to return, even when checked on the long line , (hits end and self corrects) still wants to and then gets the physical exam from stranger and goes to joyful reunion. From beginning to point 1:20 



 to Herax 



 
The Herax dog , to my thinking does to much displacement activity , he circles , he sniffs the ground when action is taking place that requires his attention (mild avoidance) . Check frame 4:25 and short time after. He has dealt with creepy thing #1, gone up and made contact and then , what? he runs away into the woods, while handler is there with creepy guy who was not a threat , just unusual , but things change and can change quickly. He needs a bit more natural suspicion or natural sharpness. This is one thing to be careful on in breeding . The dogs can be so "dull" or secure that they are not protective till the threat is right on top of them. One reason why a good pedigree should be like a fabric which brings in suspicion and then balances it. Combinations, using familiar names, some Fero , then balance with Bernd -- example only. You can not only have it one way . Bring in, counter balance . 
Compare the black dog in the same two ghost scenario from frame 6:55 to about 10:. This dog is forward from the handler , keenly interested , fends off . Now the dog is paying more attention to ghost appearing on the left of screen. Some of this has to do with the handlers body position , she is angled towards this and looks to this side , so the dog is working "with" her in the area that she has concerns of . Had this been a neutral pole stake out I am sure the dog would have alternated more between the two oncoming weird things . Other than being abnormal the ghosts are neutral , not displaying threat. When released the dog goes in confidently to investigate more. 
Dogs pick up on the most subtle things.

I do not know either dog -- the black dog was chosen at complete random.

do you see how these tests can provide feed-back on breeding decisions.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack

ps -- I am just grateful after so many interruptions trying to get this out that I didn't press something which errased the entire thing - been there done that , done that ....


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> The Herax dog , to my thinking does to much displacement activity , he circles , he sniffs the ground when action is taking place that requires his attention (mild avoidance) .


Yeah, I wondered about that--is it that the dogs knows all this stuff isn't real, isn't serious? Is he just sort of blowing off the exercise as not worth his time, or is he truly showing avoidance of the threat? To me, it looks like the dog doesn't even percieve a threat, but I'd like to see him just a bit more watchful, and a bit more "into" his handler.

I assume this dog was titled at the time the video was shot. If so, then I think it's remarkable that the dog didn't bite the "spooky" person.

I wonder how this dog would behave in a truly dangerous situation, with a person threatening to do real harm? Nothing seems to really phase him in this video, but I get the impression he isn't taking it seriously because he knows it is all a game... silly humans. Don't they know I can tell the difference between a real threat and a friend pretending to be threatening? What exactly do they want me to do here?  There are a few points at which the dog just looks sort of confused.

Overall, the shortcomings the dog shows in the video is the kind of the temperament "problem" I would like to see more of in the breed.  Most GSDs have a problem being overly reactive, easily spooked, fear-aggressive. This dog seems to have the opposite problem (if you could call it a problem).

I would take this dog home with me in a hot second. He shows many things I'd like to see in a companion dog.


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## cliffson1

Let me qualify my Answer to Wildo about the dogs reaction when released.....at that point ( when dog got to two ghosts), the dog didn't perceive a threat to respond to at that point.. Now let me address what I saw while the ghosts were advancing.....I saw a dog that was unsure, going into subtle avoidance behaviors,( hair raised, sniffing of ground, backing up to handler for support, among some other things.) Just wanted to clarify that my response to Wildo about actions after release of leash, did not preclude me from reading the former aspects. 
I do not see this as a sporty type dog, could definitely have more natural aggression, good suspicion. I like this dog as a dog that would do well in good training academy....definitely not a point dog. Would love to see him really stressed and how he channeled it....could see two different responses that may occur. Interesting!.......much different dog from the one inSch routine....not as strong to me. That's just my observation.


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## cliffson1

Btw, I do not think that all dogs in Sweden are perfect, or ole school. Of course they have some sporty dogs in the country, and they have some older lines that are now five, six, generations of breeding internally for a less extreme dog. I can't explain a balanced dog, but I know it when I see it, and many of the people I respect in working dogs understand what I mean when I use it. Probably not a good word to use in open forum.


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## carmspack

the spooky person poses no threat , he is just weird and unusual. You wouldn't want the dog to bite a person with a crutch, wearing a turban, in a wheelchair, there has to be a threat . 

" Overall, the shortcomings the dog shows in the video is the kind of the temperament "problem" I would like to see more of in the breed.  Most GSDs have a problem being overly reactive, easily spooked, fear-aggressive. This dog seems to have the opposite problem (if you could call it a problem)."

This is true !! agree totally, this dog doesn't care , he does appear to have sound nerves , wouldn't present so many of the issues of reactivity, nervousness, fear .

But for me I've been spoiled --- I really really want to have a natural partnership and capacity for a strong bond -- it makes training a breeze (genetic obedience) . 
So I will take 



 
mentality tests , I like this one , watch the quick recovery when the dog startles with the jumpsuit popping up. The dog did have some leaking and bit at the material . The evaluator wants to confirm something so he has the dog do two passes of the object -- dog Okay. He did really well with the two ghosts . The evaluator directed their approach as if he were a traffic cop . The dog always was out in front and paid attention to the approaching ghost . Good investigation after . Pretty dog . 




this would be your counter point 



 
it has been very interesting to sit watching natural reactions of these dogs 

no spoken in my fields -- just coyotes 

Carmen


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> the spooky person poses no threat , he is just weird and unusual. You wouldn't want the dog to bite a person with a crutch, wearing a turban, in a wheelchair, there has to be a threat .


Exactly. Which is why I liked the fact that the dog didn't automatically bite--especially if he had already been trained TO bite. It shows discrimination, bite inhibition, and the ability to keep a clear head. It's almost as though the dog understands what a real bite means to a human, and is treating his own bite like a loaded gun. Responsibly. I realize I'm on the verge of anthropomorphisizing here.

Reading it from a different perspective, you could say that the dog was dull, distracted, not wanting to engage, showing displacement/avoidance behaviors, and showing little interest in his own handler, running off into the woods by himself. He did come right back when called, but what was he doing noodling around in the woods when there were potential "threats" all around?

But what I really want to know is, where can I get a dog like this?


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## wildo

Thank you Cliff, Carmen, and Freestep for coming back with clarification. I have to agree with Freestep- I thought that sable dog looked good; I'd definitely take him. The issue with handler focus could just be a training issue. (I get that Carmen wants this to come naturally. Even so, it _could_ be trained.)


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## Vandal

My question was more directed at the poster from Sweden than you Cliff but it is always interesting to actually see what other people are calling "good dogs" or describing in certain ways, using certain terms. I know what balanced means to me, just not sure what it means to everyone else. I have learned that the dog terms mean surprisingly different things to different people. Becomes really clear how different, when you see the dogs they are talking about.


Still interesting in knowing how the first dog....or any of them actually, scored. Tried to watch the ones Carmen posted in her last post but for some reason, they are shutting my computer down. The ones I did watch, while the black one was better, didn't really impress me much. I wasn't thinking every dog in Sweden was perfect but so far, the best one was the Schutzhund dog. lol. 


Now you are saying you'd like to test that dog further but you could do that with SchH dogs as well. Right? I see the dog for who he is there and what I see, ( first video, sable), I do not like and I am confident if I worked him with a sleeve on, I wouldn't like him there either. Of course, I could TRAIN him and make him look better but that would be against what people are claiming makes these Swedish dogs better, exposing the genetics. Or at least that is what I think people are saying. I can't really tell to be honest.


One thing I want to say here also. The first "scary person" wearing the skirt was absolutely no threat to the dog. You could see that VERY clearly in his behavior and his bark. Then we had the sheet people or "ghosts" and the dog was completely different. Cliff pointed that out as did Carmen. THIS, for me, is the difference in SchH. The dogs do not see a threat because of the way they are worked. The helper is more a friendly combatant and that is why we see what people are calling "too much prey" . Well, for me, this is not prey work that is the problem, the dogs are PLAYING. Prey has an element of seriousness in it and I have seen dogs with a ton of prey drive who also have very strong social aggression and nerves . You can see all of it when you work them CORRECTLY as the helper...meaning you present yourself as more of a threat or a bad guy. That is when you see some really impressive things come from the dogs.....when all that is in there genetically and someone can bring it out. The dogs on these videos, ( the ones I can see anyway), did not show enough strength of character if you ask me.

Just to be clear here, , I have worked as the helper and seen and handled dogs out of many of the great dogs mentioned over and over here. Enno Beilstein, Ulk Bungalow, Ajax Haus Dexel and Frei Gugge sons and daughters, Bernd grandsons, Valet grandsons, Marko sons, Urs and on and on . Almost all of those dogs, ( and some dogs I know that are alive now), would have shown a dramatically different behavior to those threats and they would have been capable of not biting as well. If a dog is half into it, it is easier to shut it off. That is how I viewed the dogs on the videos, along with a few other short comings and they all seemed more like puppies in their behaviors. Maybe they were all quite young but I still say the dogs I just mentioned, even the younger ones, would have handled it all with much more confidence and attitude. I am talking about the dogs from years ago since it sounded to me like people were saying the dogs from Sweden are of that type.


Frankly, I have seen the same types of dogs at SchH clubs, so, I am wondering what other people are seeing as the big difference here. Not just directing that question at you Cliff but you are welcome to answer if you so desire. Yes, these dogs are not all there is, just would like to see a dog of the SchH dog's caliber doing this test.


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## carmspack

Vandal in my posts I provided other dogs to highlight the short comings of the Herax dog, who I did not like. He would not be for me . Too much avoidance activity , his threshold is lower . You can see this on the second youtube of Herax on the physical exam where the dog jumps out of surprise and squeezes back to the handler. Seems the only time he connects with handler is when under pressure or fear. 
Even so he is a better PET option .
The second dog was better than Herax and the third dog , the black dog was a complete failure , going into total avoidance not even having trust in handler when handler stands quietly in close contact with the hanging blue jumper suit. 
The best dog is the schutzhund dog and that is the one I said I would take.

I probably mentioned this before . I had two dogs that were being evaluated. Silva - the younger and Stark older by about 6 weeks. I believe Silva was about 9 months . We got the call to go out for evaluation - trainers and handlers from both US LE and Can LE would be present. We drove out with instructions to meet at a coffee shop and from there we were to follow to a location that was undisclosed . This way there was the certainty that the dogs had no chance to visit , get worked , feel comfortable in an area made familiar to them. We met . Then followed , a drive of about another 15 minutes . Without a brake , dog is asked to come out of car and track , stranger track , 1/2 mile , laid earlier in the morning - man at end . I can tell you Mike was running behind the dog who was quick and accurate . Bing . Good impression. 
Next dog ,  other location , same thing.

Next test , general retrieval, engagement with strangers , hunting for ball tossed into brush , hidden , hunt / search , with distractions . Both dogs good.

Next dogs taken , one at a time, with stranger handler who without being social marches along a path deeper into wooded area where dog is tied out . There are observers in place but hidden. The dog is left by self. Handler comes out of clearing . Then events happen. Staged joggers - neutral , bicyclists, neutral , gun fire - distance, then hostile approach and confrontation. We hear dog barking , nice and deep , (good). 
Both dogs pass.
We are told result as evaluator reads it out to the entire group.
Break for coffee , then head off to other location .Now we are working in buildings . We are at the auto mechanics , dog taken by strange handler into work area , air pistons going , things clanging , being dropped. All the noises and activity of a busy mechanics . 
Next was to take dog into adjoining windowless building which was in total darkness and dog walked into it then up a metal stair case and cat walk along one side of wall. Then when back on ground level surprise movement .

at the end both dogs were wanted , one of those flip a coin to make a decision. After a few moments of talk the older of the two Stark was selected , on our advice , because of his advantage of being older and better by that for the certification course which was to begin shortly after. That was Stark - about 9 months https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/successes-references/carmspack-stark-success-page

The other dog Silva later became https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/successes-references/carmspack-sylva
He was selected , trained and certified by the same trainer , evaluator / certifier as Stark . 
The dogs were related as there dams were sisters to each other, and their grandmother was sister to Untitled which was a "click" with several other littermates going into law enforcement (USA). That department started off with Flint Untitled
who made an arrest inside a mall , during the Christmas season -- having to track down the person in this highly contaminated hard surface track - finding the man after hours of thorough hunting , up and down the different levels , going into washrooms , service areas, behind scenes in the food court, into the utility rooms where the mechanics of the building area -- dog never relented in his drive and then finds a store front with the steel mesh curtain down , insists this is the spot , can't be pulled off , strong indication. They see that there was enough give for a person to shimmy through bottom . Dog finds person hiding under table with season drapery from table top display to floor . The man and dog meet face to face. If this were a dog who had to discharge his pent up energy in finding the guy, the man would not have had a face. This was in all the local papers.

I want to know how do you get your whites so white? 
Is it Persil?

Carmen


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## cliffson1

The only dog I raved about in all of this was the "Sch" dog. Probably a lucky guess...lol. But I tend to look at dogs from two perspectives, one being the genetics, the second being the ability to create the dog through training to something that will serve. Often, a dog has both, sometimes a dog that can be trained to nice level is not one I like for breeding.
Today, I see too many dogs that are extreme in specific areas, and when exposed to multi faceted training you are fighting the instinctive extremes in getting the dog to function well. This is makes training last longer than should be necessary or in some cases the dog just can't achieve the goals set. Anyway, there is a difference, IMO, in Sch the trial, and Sch, the competition. At least to me; in the differences Anne, I agree with your view of Sch and it's benefit to the breed. Unfortunately, I live in a current Sch, the competition world. I think Sch the trial developed and maintained one type of dog, and Sch, the sport, has promulgated another type. Hope this makes sense to people....if not I'll continue in the dark....lol


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## JakodaCD OA

love all the comments about the Herax dogs, made me re-watch and see what you all were seeing..

I to, wonder how the dog scored, and what the testers 'are' looking for regarding behaviors in the testings.

I still think that test was cool, and would love to try it


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## Vandal

Well, since you are in Canada Carmen, your dogs don't count as an answer to my question. lol. 

I am wondering what it is about the Swedish dogs that make them so special. Now, if I saw many dogs coming from there that looked like the SchH dog, I would be really excited. However, it seems, ( just like everywhere), he is the exception and not the rule. At least he is based on the videos offered and yes, I do realize some were posted to show comparisons.


So, again, since it was mentioned on this thread. What is it about the Swedish dogs that make them so much better? It sounds like Cliff has seen more than one of them. Also, are people attributing their success to this Mentality test ?


As for SchH, I actually have been working dogs in SchH for a long time, as most people know. I am also rather familiar with Police dogs. Therefore, I feel like I have a good basis for my complaints about what has happened. I actually see what is out there and I have seen the shift in the mentality . The later, IMO, might be a bigger problem than the dogs are, however. I think there are still good dogs although there is a difference in many, that I am reminded of every so often.
I have gone to SchH clubs for the first time and been asked to work some dogs. On the way home, I am almost always thinking...Holy Snit, those dogs are TERRIBLE!. lol. However, after I go back and the dogs are awakened by helper work that brings up the drive, brings out the aggression and demands that they do more than play, I have seen dogs that I was completely writing off, change dramatically. No, I am not "helping" them do that with soft work . I am touching what is deep inside and had been basically paved over by playful training, too much work that is about chasing and also work where the helper is being simply WAY too friendly and completely devoid of the proper attitude.

The prey drive of the dogs is really important to good protection work. The idea of using the prey drive was a really good one, way back when. However, it was NEVER supposed to be only prey work, the idea was to CHANNEL the aggression INTO the prey. The dogs back then were more serious, had more social aggression and were worked differently. More along the lines of the way the police worked the dogs, in fact, identical to that but without the advancement to the suit. The dogs actually benefited greatly from the methods that showed how to use the prey drive. For the lack of a better way to put it, the prey drive was more to relieve the pressure of the rest of the work. No, it was not always about running with the sleeve, ( and not all dogs were asked to run with it), nor were they playing with the sleeve or celebrating like they just won a toy. There was a real seriousness in the dogs that you did, (and still can), see when you work them right . When you reach inside and touch what is in the dog, you will see them hold that sleeve in a way that means business, not play.
Now we have people basically working prey in a way too playful fashion and the beginning training leaves the helper almost completely out of it. That is just a huge mistake, if you ask me. The helper should be the first thing the dog confronts, not simply a rag on a whip. It is not just a helper problem though. The handlers are also showing the complete wrong attitude. They come on the field relaxed and act completely unconcerned about the "bad guy". They celebrate with the dog over the sleeve like that is all that matters. The dogs are asked to run with the sleeve, whether they "need" to do that or not. All of this has a way of leaving the dogs out of drive, meaning....they are not showing enough of it nor are they working in the proper drive. 

Anyway, I could go on and on about the problems with the training now but like I said, I am leaning a bit more to that as being the problem more than I am about the dogs. There were always dogs who were not so special and the great ones were never a dime a dozen. Having said that however, I think what Carmen touched on in the beginning of one of her posts is also the issue. The dogs who have a strong interest in their handler and show that desire to be with and work with them. That makes a difference in how they will work protection as well as the other phases. IMO, it is a part of the protective instinct. 
Once again though, there is a training aspect to that, where people spend WAY too much time creating a nutty obsession for the ball so they can use it in SchH training. They also insist on working the dogs with food or a ball and don't seem to recognize the dogs who like, and respond better, to simple praise. 

Like I said in my first post, the methods are not simply hiding the weaknesses in the dogs. They are hiding some of the good things as well. All of this "advancement" in the training methods has left a rather significant void in the ability of many to actually READ the dogs. However, that lack of ability is not exclusive to SchH trainers, that is for sure. 

The Swedish test is quite good for that purpose. You are forced to watch what the dog is doing .


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## carmspack

Vandal there are two black dogs . The first one Qaxi is the one you would be referring to as a somewhat better dog than Herax . I chose this dog to reveal the lack of handler interest that Herax shows. Herax could be a very good pet , vastly better than some . For working I feel that you would always have to dig into your bag of tricks , go through contortions to get the dog to work with you. His mind is like a little butterfly -- I would have a hard time imagining this dog completing a task without pressure and direction. Herding for example - where the dog needs to be focused and dedicated. I know this "type" . Personal experience , which has created a new requirement for me. That is -- I will never buy a dog from a person who does not personally work their dogs . Too many importers who buy titled . I had a dog very much like Herax. A DDR lines bred dog , but born domestic - USA . Eye popping gorgeous , great conformation , but to get him to "work" you would have to fight his innate character, warp him, and that is not right and not fair and has no purpose. He was sold as a pet where he is a very fine and much loved family member who will never cause any grief . That was his niche. As Vandal said so well , he was the perpetual puppy. I think that was the intent when some posters said they would gladly take this dog in a heart beat.

The other black dog is among the selections I gave later on , Grym - a nice black and tan , and Carnen , a black dog that bolted and went into avoidance showing poor nerves.

Of the choices Herax, Qaxi, Grym and Carnen -- I would put the black and tan Grym in #1 , Qaxi , probably 2, Herax 3 (because he would be more difficult to train - hard to harness interest and keep it) and without question black dog Carnen in last .

Vandal "Just to be clear here, , I have worked as the helper and seen and handled dogs out of many of the great dogs mentioned over and over here. Enno Beilstein, Ulk Bungalow, Ajax Haus Dexel and Frei Gugge sons and daughters, Bernd grandsons, Valet grandsons, Marko sons, Urs and on and on " We need to identify the dogs of today that are of that ilk. I have a few in mind.

So I have been burning the midnight oil as always looking for this generations super-dogs . 
I have found some . If there is interest I can lay it out as a study with pedigrees and videos so you can see what the performance looks like beyond the words that Anne the Vandal or myself would use . These would be my "ideal".
MANY though do show the genetics coming from Dutch and Belgian breeders , some Czech combinations .

-- I really really wish we were closer. You should travel and teach DECOYS. Oh yes. In another post I said if you have that type of dog , they (clubs/decoys) continue on the assembly line format play-prey-monkey which does not bring out the dog or show his power. So many times I hire a decoy who I know has the knowledge to start the dog . His experience would be "american street ring and police service dogs" . Or through demonstrations with some of my adult dogs , or with multiple phone conversations so that the owner can explain to the decoy what they want . When they see the difference the light goes on.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com 



.


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## carmspack

huge sigh -- hey Joe Kuhn called me Canada Carmen , boy that brought back memories !!!
deep breath , another huge sigh . Vandal said " I am touching what is deep inside and had been basically paved over by playful training, too much work that is about chasing and also work where the helper is being simply WAY too friendly and completely devoid of the proper attitude."

LS I hope you are reading this ! read the whole section -- is this not what I told you last week -- the idea was to CHANNEL the aggression INTO the prey.
LS read this, make wall paper out of it -- that way it saves me time -- this is "IT" (thank you Vandal) "The prey drive of the dogs is really important to good protection work. The idea of using the prey drive was a really good one, way back when. However, it was NEVER supposed to be only prey work, the idea was to CHANNEL the aggression INTO the prey. The dogs back then were more serious, had more social aggression and were worked differently. More along the lines of the way the police worked the dogs, in fact, identical to that but without the advancement to the suit. The dogs actually benefited greatly from the methods that showed how to use the prey drive. For the lack of a better way to put it, the prey drive was more to relieve the pressure of the rest of the work. No, it was not always about running with the sleeve, ( and not all dogs were asked to run with it), nor were they playing with the sleeve or celebrating like they just won a toy. There was a real seriousness in the dogs that you did, (and still can), see when you work them right . When you reach inside and touch what is in the dog, you will see them hold that sleeve in a way that means business, not play.
Now we have people basically working prey in a way too playful fashion and the beginning training leaves the helper almost completely out of it. That is just a huge mistake, if you ask me. The helper should be the first thing the dog confronts, not simply a rag on a whip. It is not just a helper problem though. The handlers are also showing the complete wrong attitude. They come on the field relaxed and act completely unconcerned about the "bad guy". They celebrate with the dog over the sleeve like that is all that matters. The dogs are asked to run with the sleeve, whether they "need" to do that or not. All of this has a way of leaving the dogs out of drive, meaning....they are not showing enough of it nor are they working in the proper drive."

A dog with genetic obedience will offer that interest without bribe or rewards -- it is there -- a desire to be partnered -- training is a breeze.
The other day I had two pups out when the postal delivery came up my drive with a notice that some large package had arrived and I needed to pick it up. So the postal lady spent some time at the side of the house where I was with the pups, 8 weeks . They ran to greet her , then came back. I showed some retrieval , let her do some tug , showed her the pups heeling even though the cat hiding by the peony darted out in front of them to scoot to the back door. Still the pup was "with" me . I did some hot-dog moves ,circles , left right , fast , trying to loose the pup and still he was "with" me . So my husband spotted the activity from his upstairs window - later said he was watching me and I looked like I had two fur-boots on - the hairy hippy boots of the 70's. (I did them in ones and as a couple) . He brought out a cold drink for the posty and while she was enjoying it , and the discussion continued , both pups lay at my feet facing her .
Look at the little pups focus on my new web site banner 
CARMSPACK.com I am talking to someone , the pup is on my left . He has not been rewarded with food or ball , I don't do that .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> He was sold as a pet where he is a very fine and much loved family member who will never cause any grief . That was his niche. As Vandal said so well , he was the perpetual puppy. I think that was the intent when some posters said they would gladly take this dog in a heart beat.


Yep. If all the backyard-bred dogs in America had this type of temperament, you would see far fewer problems with the breed. You wouldn't have GSDs biting the postman, or snapping at family members, freaking out about other dogs, or doing any of that reactive, fear-aggressive stuff that gives GSDs a bad name. The Herax dog did not show the degree of owner interest that I'd like to see, but he is stable as a brick house, not getting upset over dumb things, and even when he does get a little stressed, it does not consume him. As soon as he finds the "threat" to be empty, he happily goes about his business. This is a dog that could go to any family and be rock solid. And if this were the "pet" dog of the litter, the very least of what the breed could be? Ah... what a dream.



> I have found some . If there is interest I can lay it out as a study with pedigrees and videos so you can see what the performance looks like beyond the words that Anne the Vandal or myself would use .


Yes, please!! I know I am not the only one who is interested!


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## Debbieg

Freestep said:


> Quote:
> I have found some . If there is interest I can lay it out as a study with pedigrees and videos so you can see what the performance looks like beyond the words that Anne the Vandal or myself would use .
> 
> 
> Yes, please!! I know I am not the only one who is interested!



Also very interested!


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## cliffson1

My feeling toward Sweden is based in their approach to the breed for over fifty years. I feel they have not got caught up in the sport/show world as much as others. 
Let me give an analogy of how I view Sch. I view Sch in a similar context as I view college or the university, for the development of people. It is a preparatory test, that helps the dog transition into service for man. It is not the end all for a dog, nor does it define a dog, but it prepares a dog and flushes out weaknesses and strengths of a dog. I view other dog sports the same way. Many successful college grads become successful in life....many do not. The world is much more complex than college, and the many vocations that this breed can and has been used for is also. The purpose of Sch for me, beside partial assessment of breed suitability, is Giving a dog foundation to move into vocations. I understand that times has changed, and Sch has changed, and the purpose of Sch has changed in general......that being said, I will never buy into dogs being bred to DO Sch or to win shows. So shows and Sch are not my definition of a great dog, although many great dogs are in the sport. The great dogs to me are the highly skilled SAR dogs, military dogs, LE dogs, guide dogs, cattle/herding dogs, etc. 
Now college( Sch or dog sport) is not the only way to be successful in vocation, many people go the route of trade schools, apprenticeship, Etc. these are breeders like Carmen, who has a very high success in dogs coming through her program and entering into many various services for man. To me the successful end result for this breed is work or service.....so I value the breed from this perspective. I don't dislike Sch or any other dog sport, I don't dislike dog shows, but to me they are stepping stones to another use for the dog.....and if they get to the point that they are not being used in that manner or have changed so that the workforce doesn't go to them for resources....then to me( and only me), their value is not as important as others may see them.


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## carmspack

but he is stable as a brick house --- not exactly , he shows avoidance , see the video on physical examination, he scoots away -- would not count on this dog when there was real threat


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## Vandal

When I started in SchH, it was never considered " a basic test" or what Cliff is talking about. It pains me to hear what people say about it now because just like that Swedish test, when it was more about the dogs, you certainly could see who the dogs really were. It was not the bare minimum, it was THE test. Police would look to the SchH dogs for candidates. I can still see things in the dogs, even with the new methods. When you are the helper, and know how to be one, you can see things and feel things that no one else does. 


Everything I have learned about dogs, I learned doing SchH. Trained with Police and can say I saw very little there I didn't already know from SchH training. Yes, I started a long time ago when things were different. If I started SchH today, the possibility of learning those things would be nill. So today, I am grateful for being old. People want to talk about how "unsophisticated " the training was while they tout all their new training methods. Those methods are never going to show you the real dog nor would most recognize what they are looking at if they did. Yeah, I saw lots of bad trainers then, just like I do now. They are just different in their bad training. lol. 


You can't learn when you only know and insist on working one way. Dog training, for me anyway, is learning how to work ALL of them. They all show you something and it is your job as the trainer to make adjustments, vs asking the dog to conform to your method. I work and have worked Mals, Rotts, Dobies, Bouviers, Schnauzers. I am constantly helping people ( or trying to, using videos via the internet), who are stuck, because their helper only wants/knows how to work one way. It is a big a problem for people now because SchH trainers have been sold a bill of goods by the money changers. 

I have seen all the differences in the dogs and breeds and none of them, could I have worked all the SAME. It is simply not possible but there is a heavy influence that suggests that you can.


People do get excited when they see dogs who are actually doing protection. It is fun, it is exciting and it is interesting. I think the methods that are making the dogs look like less than they might really be, is what is killing SchH. Also, people don't like constantly defending what they are taking part in. They don't like to be part of something that many times is simply a fraud. However, they don't know how to change it because they don't have the training skills. They are left following the Pied Pipers who have something to sell.


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## cliffson1

I agree Anne, in the seventies we (police/military/security) did look at Sch dogs as a reliable source of potential candidates.......and many dogs got their degrees and went into depts because the transition was seamless. But times and uses have changed. Today's policework on the streets is 75% nose work. Building searches, trailing, tracking, narcotic/explosive work in buildings, cars, open fields, woods etc; as the training instructor was telling the recent new class, " actual bite work will be small part of what uses your dog will be called on to perform".....but today's Sch tracking is not as effective as the way tracking was taught many years ago for conversion to LE tracking/trailing. The correctness of technique is not as important as the end result. too slow, too much precision, only rarely are the circumstances ideal for this type of tracking....things move too fast and time is often of the essence. They are just different animals so to speak. Still, there are some great dogs in Sch and some great trainers in Sch, and many of the top breeding stock comes from Sch dogs, but frankly depts would rather take a " tested green dog" than many Sch dogs these days.


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## björn

What´s special about the swedish lines is that you can find dogs with different selectioncriteria for very long time, for better or worse

The other clip of herax is when he was 15 months old, don´t know how old he was when doing the norwegian test, which also is used in finland but with some vartiations, they are all based on the swedish army/korung test, even if the swedish one have been a bit changed in recent years. I´m not saying herax is a super dog, what I´m aware of he isn´t titled if that makes any difference. What I saw in his test is no major faults, yes he backed down a bit from the ghost, but also which is judged he quickly investigated on his own when the ghost have turned around and signaled no threath. It´s no obedience test where the dog must follow the handler around. I guess it´s a bit confusing also if you don´t know the scoring and what the different situations are supposed to test.

The black bitch quaxi was doing a test you can do from 12 months, is also a must for competition or breeding, what´s important to know is that most dogs doing these test are between 12-18 months and many no protectiontraining, so experience and how mature the dog is shouldn´t be neglected. 

This a think is a nice test of an 18 months old dog, also later on tested as suitabel for policedog,





Regarding swedish lines, what I meant to say is that dogs with much swedish blood and maybe also certain lines are not that hyper and malinois like, I guess because this is really not needed for a police/military or SAR-dogs, courage, strong nerves, hardness, concentration in different environments is more important than optimum traits for SCH-sports and flashy obedience. So these types of dogs are quite unlike the swedish bloodlines,










Then some may like a more lively and explosive dog also in service if it´s suitable as a whole, but I guess the question is if it´s really needed except for top sport? The SCH dog I posted first seems to have enoug temperament and still all four paws on the ground so to speak.
Speaking of herax one of his daughters did a good test for the police, have seen quite a few dogs with very high prey and temperament that would run or show much more concern in this situation,


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## Castlemaid

carmspack said:


> Grym.. German Shepherd. Mental test... (MH-test) - YouTube


To me, it just can't really get much better than that. This dog looks quite young, yet handles everything with such aplomb and poise. Another thing that I see in this video is the relationship Grym has with his handler. You can tell that the handler just thinks the world of this pup, and Grym lives up to those expectations. 

The other video posted as a counter point - not only is the dog showing fear and insecurity, the dog does not seem to have much of a relationship with the handler.


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## Vandal

Yes, I would like to know how it is scored. If you can explain, I would enjoy reading it.


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## Vandal

Trying to watch Grym and hoping he doesn't shut my computer down.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> but he is stable as a brick house --- not exactly , he shows avoidance , see the video on physical examination, he scoots away -- would not count on this dog when there was real threat


Hm, I only saw the video of him in the woods, didn't see the physical exam. Which video was that in?


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## Freestep

Never mind, I found the video. Yes, he sort of scoots his butt away during the exam, but comes right back and lets the guy look at his teeth. Honestly, if this is the worst thing he does, I stand by my earlier comment that he would make a safe and solid pet for any family. I have dogs do this on my grooming table all the time--try to sit or move their butt away from me when I'm trying to do something there--and I'll take that any day over a dog that's snapping at me, dodging everything I try to do, or trying to become one with the surface of the table.


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## Vandal

Cliff, 
Go watch Lisa's female Vala in the SchH section. You can get high scores with that kind of tracking and she IS tracking. Depends on the trainer. I don't think Vala would have a hard time transitioning to police type tracking or trailing. You can also see something else I mentioned in that thread. Where one method or fashion is pushed on others who do SchH. 


Also, depending on the dog's temperament, some track faster or slower. Yes, I know there are people who force track but it is no where NEAR as common as the people, (who do not train in SchH), want to claim it is. Mine tend to track more slowly but in protection, sometimes we hide the helper and they have absolutely no problem hunting him down. That is something that is in the dog that SchH tracking training doesn't affect. Hunting for the helper doesn't change the way my dogs track in SchH either. We have done that work for decades now while training in SchH. I trained a number of my SchH dogs to do detection work at the same time I was training them in SchH. Didn't hurt their tracking scores at all.

I am sure not everyone works their dogs like this but when people who train in SchH have seen some of the things we do, they immediately want to try it with their dogs. There are just limits on the kind of training SchH people see. Like I said before, most of the ones I have met, enjoy working their dogs in different ways and with more "realism" attached to it. They only need to break out of the ridiculousness that some have turned it into and I think everyone would be having more fun. It is fun to see what your dogs can do naturally and it in no way ruins their performance in SchH. The more the dogs do, the better they get.


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## Vandal

Grym......wasn't easy to watch since I had to reload the video twice. However, I agree. That would be more along the lines of what I would like to see in the dogs. That's two good Swedish dogs. Did I mention that my motherline is Swedish? ;-)


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## björn

It´s late here now but also watched grym and some of his other videos, very handsome looking boy in my opinion, mediumsized with a straight back that is also more typical for swedish workinglines.

His father.
KORAD Nemårs Pärra - German Shepherd Dog

his mothers father,
KORAD Karga Landets Yngve - German Shepherd Dog

And the mother, a little bit of older german showdogs there I see
KORAD Passat Rexa - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack

"Did I mention that my motherline is Swedish" ah ha! so that explains the name VANDAL --


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## cliffson1

Anne, Lisa's values in dogs and training is very much in line with what I seek also. I know there are people in the "sport" who have still retained the values of producing, training, and trialing dogs that could transition easily into police, military, or SAR. Julia priest, yourself, Mike Diehl, Sue and Gabor, and others. I am primarily speaking of the trend I am seeing these days. Like Bjorn said, dogs that are as much Malinois like as Mals. And it seems the trend is increasing as opposed to people like I named being the norm anymore. I love Lisa's program, though I know I annoy her with my criticism of the sport sometime


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## cliffson1

Bjorn, I am glad you made the point about the show lines. People think I am anti show lines in breeding. The truth of the matter is: another reason I like the Swedish mindset over the years is because they did integrate the SL into their dogs before the lines got so totally saturated. If you look at a lot of Swedish pedigrees, you will see many 1st, 2nd, 3rd, generation dogs from Mutz, Quanto, and even Canto, that are incorporated into their dogs along with older DDR lines. Great genetic diversity, and the proper use of dogs like Canto/Quanto, in that they balanced these dogs with dogs that would offset their weaknesses, thus retaining strong solid working dogs. Used in this way, I have no problem with SL in a pedigree.


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## Vandal

Well Cliff, It's possible I had started talking about that even before you did. However, I do think that some of the dogs could look quite different if the training was. Certainly not all of them but it is a significant factor if you ask me. Those dogs were present years ago just as they are now but not nearly as popular. In many cases, the comparison to Mals is an insult to that breed because they are better. lol. The Mals may have lots of prey drive but most have the desired level of aggression. At least the ones I have seen and worked do.


It is funny that Quanto was just mentioned, I started to say something about him earlier just to stir things up but got busy. I do not see him as a problem in a pedigree at all. He was a dog with good character and produced it and has maybe been thought of as a problem thru assoociation with Canto, and of course the kennel name. I saw and worked with sons and daughters, grandsons etc and my experience with that line, (while maybe not stupendous SchH dogs), it added very good judgement, excellent temperament and good nerves. Of course, I am talking about adding him with very good working lines but again, that is not a bad bloodline nor was he a bad dog. Mostly, as you said, he was not used properly but he was not in any way like Canto.


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## björn

Yes, there are some showlines in certain swedish lines, but mostly this is from the mid 80s and back where some showdogs actually both looked and acted not so bad. I guess selective breedings for many generations also influence todays dog more than if he had some showdogs pretty far back.

The test that grym did they rate the dogs behaviours in an intensity scale from 1-5, where they just fill in the number the dog does, there is a score sheet so you know what each number stands for in the different traits they test, like prey,aggresion,fear and curiosity. For example in the situation with the ghosts, no aggresion at all he is rated 1, much aggresion and several attacks attempt a 5. So what´s best is depending on what the dog should do, but of course generally a workingdog should score high on boldness and show less fear and a willignes to engage himself in the situations.

The swedish korung that is a test for older dogs is basically the same as the norwegian one. A few changes thou, the ghost is not a part anymore and neither the "big prey", the person running away with a cape the dog should investigate. The situation where a person is "challanging" the dog is now with less threath and a bit more playfull to avoid defencebehaviours, and instead to more see if the dog likes to engage and respond to the actions of the person, aggresion/defence is tested with the sledge that is drawn to the dog, can be drawn closer in the new korung. A rag is also disapering ina pipe where they judge endurance for engaging. The new swedish korung also has more emphais on grips and intensity when biting a tug. You can get maximum 600points, 300p to pass. The judge socialness, prey/fightingdrive,aggresion, ability to concentrate and adapt to the situations and so on, easier to understand if you have the actual template before you and can see what is judged and how many points each behaviour earns.

A stud that been used quite a bit last years, pretty much swedish lines except the danish dog degns fönix, and some geman dogs further back,
KORAD Kurants Nemo - German Shepherd Dog

A son of him doing the new swedish korung, I only show waht´s a bit different to the norwegian and older swedish korung.


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## carmspack

twice I have written something but with a thunderstorm nothing seems to be co-operating, every time I post I get a disable -- so I am just going to through this out , make it stick

LOOK at this performance 




pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=618500
read the back story 
If you have not seen Sam, he is well worth a visit. He has very intense drives, an awe inspiring pedigree and … of course all the stuff you expect out of a WUSV World Champion. What is not widely known is Sam’s history, which, when we looked for a mate, made him particularly unique. Sam is a German dog that was living in Israel working with the Israeli military. Poor Sam lost a toe and was unable to use the foot altogether. Because of this he was left as a stud dog and nothing more. Sharon Ronen, his "new to Schutzhund" handler, and Stefan Juntke, a well known trainer in Germany, found this “three legged dog” and decided to practice some Schutzhund on him, smile. 18 months later they WON the WUSV World tournament. Sharon, Stefan and Sam make an unbelievable team! If you notice in his 2009 videos he has a wrapped paw and is limping slightly, he was not putting full weight on that leg until weeks before Worlds and in my opinion that makes scoring a 291 even more amazing. Even his 2010 videos, a repeat performance at WUSV where he scored 2nd, show his wrapped paw. Truly an amazing dog with enormous presence. Sam is sable, and he is one of those dogs that does look a ton better in person than in video (his videos make him look maybe traditional black and tan, he is not; he’s actually a very pretty fluffy sable). He is good with kids, humans, dogs just about everyone though being a confident male champion he does have his preferences. Of course, great elbows and hips. And be aware he has a black dad so … paired with this female black pups are expected because she also has a black dad. 

enjoy -- the genetics thing I will have to do later , now more time with my own dogs 

Carmen


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## carmspack

one thing to remember is that all GSD , whether GSL, ASL, GWL , Czech, Belgian, Swedish all originated in the provinces of Germany representing regions and their specific needs , whether more home-based, or part of the seasonal transhumanance to better pasture, with one founding father Hektor Linksrhein renamed by von Stephanitz to Horand v Grafrath . 
What makes dogs different is the needs of the people, priorities, selection . 
Cliff , I doubt, has had actual experience with Swedish dogs. I have not. My ideas are based on information exchanged over some years , provided by a person who along with spouse was a member of military with duties to patrol the long border shared with Russia , which had tensions and disputes . So I understood the role of the mentality tests . Correct me if I am wrong , but the citizenry with dogs , tested, selected and recorded are encouraged to maintain standards in training and be available like some reserve - if the need be the dogs would be volunteered to see active duty.
I was particularly impressed with the role of the messenger dog . The dog had vast distance to cover in the shortest amount of time , often under areas with gun fire, locate his contact , deliver the message, and without much waste of time turn around and deliver the response to handler one . He may be sent out again , this time his contact will have moved so he needed to find him.
Are Swede dogs "better" -- in some ways because there is a concerted effort to maintain something. 
Vandal decoys other breeds , Rotts, Bouviers , Mals and that is excellent because it keeps her skills at the highest .
I have an interest in some other breeds, working breeds, to ferret out common themes in achieving something.
There are other reasons also . One breed was the Bassett Fauve - a smart hunting dog . I even belonged to a forum for over a year trying to learn as much as I could. I did notice that the dogs in their country of origin, France, and in countries that relied on the dogs for hunting , the dogs maintained a dependable expectation of drive and temperament. In the countries, sorry UK friends, where the dogs became primarily showcase dogs , and cute pets, because they are very cute (Benji anyone) the dogs were not as tractable (as much as a hound can be) more stubborn , started to dwindle in innate drives and started to have health issues . 
The other breed which I studied was the Bavarian Mountain hound , an ancient dog with outstanding scenting ability able to locate wounded animal 3 and 5 days after it had passed an area leaving only the smallest of blood drops spaced few and far between. In the Scandinavian countries, Czech, Poland , Hungary where the dogs were hunted the dogs were excellent . They were tough and could take down a wild boar . This one is still obscure enough to be in good repair as a breed.
That is not to say that every dog is great or good as we have seen from some of the mentality test on youtubey.
Overall there does seem to be a direction toward a certain type of dog and that is one that is balanced.

Pedigree examination using Marhojs Kubik , brother to a Kastor previously mentioned KORAD Marhöjs Kubik - German Shepherd Dog you will find these familiar names , Frei Baruther Land , prominent on many good DDR lines , Quanto Wienerau (Lasso) , Vello Niderreiche , Canto Wienerau ,a good healthy dose of Valet Busecker Schloss, Klodo Eremitenklause , Ajax Dexel, a good healthy dose of Bernd Lierberg through several sources notably haus Himpel and through the Ritterbergs Held and Golf . In another pedigree you have the above plus Uwe Kirchental and Fero coming from Arry brother to Asko, Schloss Zweibruggen , who I used and was owned by Julia Priest . There were pedigrees with Sagus and Greif .

so many DDR and West German dogs , not any Czech dogs that I could see -- German show lines included sparingly in the late 60's early 70's. 
Then things were a little more home-made in Sweden , until one dog started to appear with some frequency and that would be beautiful Troll (and brother Task) haus Milinda SG Troll vom Haus Milinda - German Shepherd Dog

---- 


to be continued .


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## cliffson1

Carmen, you understand my mindset on genetics and emphasis of Swedish dogs and Swedish breeding.....thx!


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## carmspack

earlier on in the discussion Anne said "Vandal "Just to be clear here, , I have worked as the helper and seen and handled dogs out of many of the great dogs mentioned over and over here. Enno Beilstein, Ulk Bungalow, Ajax Haus Dexel and Frei Gugge sons and daughters, Bernd grandsons, Valet grandsons, Marko sons, Urs and on and on "

and I said We need to identify the dogs of today that are of that ilk. I have a few in mind.

So I have been burning the midnight oil as always looking for this generations super-dogs . 
I have found some . If there is interest I can lay it out as a study with pedigrees and videos so you can see what the performance looks like beyond the words that Anne the Vandal or myself would use . These would be my "ideal".
MANY though do show the genetics coming from Dutch and Belgian breeders , some Czech combinations ."

so how about we do it a bit at a time -- (as time allows)

My first that comes to mind is Vito Waldwinkel V Vito vom Waldwinkel - German Shepherd Dog


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## lhczth

Carmen, you might want to start another thread for this under its own topic.  Excellent idea.


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## Freestep

Yes, start a new thread for it. Would be great information for all!


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## carmspack

I don't know , this discussion has a following , and I will need to refer to previously presented information here as a reference and or comparison. 

keep looking here


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## björn

I guess all GSDs are german from the start, in DDR they breed their GSDs for a little bit over 30 years, if we look at the Czech GSDs many sems to go back to some DDR and westgerman dogs from the 80-70s. Sweden the same, some dogs have influence of DDR or west dogs 4-5 generations back, like jack and arry, but the majority of dogs in the pedigree is german free for more generations than that. So I guess the differences between different populations is the use of the dogs and maybe taste, I mean dogs from long line of SCH-breedings could still be quite different. I don´t know what differs between the older DDR-dogs and czech dogs for example, maybe more similarities than differences? 

What is good is also what you prefer I suppose, a calmer stable dog that is not so quick to react on different things may be a better choice for tracking, extreme preydriven and less seriousness may also be something a PSD or securitydog can live without. 

Good dogs you can find in different countries/lines, one plus about the swedish mentaltests is that you without much effort see how the "unknown" stud compares to the more famous lines/competitiondogs in their offpsring. This policedog for example has very good values in his offspring on these test,
Hedeforsens Harras - German Shepherd Dog

One of his sons that is a PSD that does a very good test,


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## robk

carmspack said:


> I don't know , this discussion has a following , and I will need to refer to previously presented information here as a reference and or comparison.
> 
> keep looking here


Carmen, I really wish you would start a new thread on the subjects of modern day super dogs. I think it would be very interesting and educational. I have a couple of dogs that I would throw into the conversation but they really don't pertain to the subject of this thread. (Just my two cents!)
Rob


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## carmspack

oh all right


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## Wolfgeist

björn said:


> Good dogs you can find in different countries/lines, one plus about the swedish mentaltests is that you without much effort see how the "unknown" stud compares to the more famous lines/competitiondogs in their offpsring. This policedog for example has very good values in his offspring on these test,


My male's father and half-brother passed the MH; and after research on this test I am very supportive of it. What a great addition to testing a dog. I wish I could fly my male out there with me to do it!


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## carmspack

have your dog tested here


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## Wolfgeist

carmspack said:


> have your dog tested here


They do the MH in Canada? The owner of my male's sire flew to Norway, I believe, to have it done... I didn't think it was available in North America. Will absolutely go for it if this is true!


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## carmspack

not officially , but the one dept does tests which encompass many of the challenges - no white sheeted ghosts though 

I would love to get something like this in Canada , I'll put some time and energy into it to see what we can do --


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## björn

Maybe some caution should be take if testing just for fun without any experience of the test , don´t want the dog to be mentally hurt in the process, I guess it would not serve so much purpose either, this is how the test protocoll is graded. Note that rating 5 is not always the ideal,
www.lapphund.nu Lihku ( Swedish Lapphund ). Protocol, dog mental health description.

To the first poster, I saw that glenn v valkenplatz performance in SCH3 is available on youtube if intressted. Good dogs and lines is an intressting topic, maybe a bit tricky to measure what dog is better than others, mostly people measure this in SCH-competition I suppose. Many dogs are also popular in certain countries but almost unheard of in others. Another dog with the same "swedish lines" that the gråmanns dog had, but not the same lines except that, seems also good but misses here on the couragetest even if I think it was some faults from the decoy when seeing it in slowmotion,


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## carmspack

well I am laughing -- I got distracted by the judge , and missed seeing what the dog did .

My thought was to have a club bring in a tester from Sweden as a novelty add on to a seminar , trial, test, introduce process to a local police trainer - evaluator and then offer later to public. Clubs bring in schH trainers and decoys all the time. So the two people I mentioned it too, once they heard what was involved in the test looked at me as if I had two heads .

Boing -- here is a male that I like VA Caro van Brandevoort - German Shepherd Dog -- looks like a male version of my rhino dog Sabrian.
proven pedigree, highest levels, "A" hips throughout all first 3 generations, met lof female -- VA rating --- 
look at this power combination VandeKelten Archer - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack

In my poking around looking at pedigrees over the last 3 or 4 days there are some dogs which keep on appearing . One of them is Aron von Bracheler See http://www.von-peroh.de/Themen/Rohde_Aron_Bracheler_See_.pdf

von Peroh


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## robk

carmspack said:


> well I am laughing -- I got distracted by the judge , and missed seeing what the dog did .
> 
> My thought was to have a club bring in a tester from Sweden as a novelty add on to a seminar , trial, test, introduce process to a local police trainer - evaluator and then offer later to public. Clubs bring in schH trainers and decoys all the time. So the two people I mentioned it too, once they heard what was involved in the test looked at me as if I had two heads .
> 
> Boing -- here is a male that I like VA Caro van Brandevoort - German Shepherd Dog -- looks like a male version of my rhino dog Sabrian.
> proven pedigree, highest levels, "A" hips throughout all first 3 generations, met lof female -- VA rating ---
> look at this power combination VandeKelten Archer - German Shepherd Dog


I like that Caro a lot!


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## Wolfgeist

björn said:


> Maybe some caution should be take if testing just for fun without any experience of the test


No, I would not want to take it just for fun. I believe it holds value. As I said, my male's sire and half-brother have done the MH - I learned from it after their owner talked to me about it. I wish I could do it!


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## carmspack

robk , not a gsd but just had to share this -- you will laugh when you see the flying jump --


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## robk

That dog needs to be named Superman instead of Macho man! I thought he was going to fly right over the helpers head. You are right, that was great!


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## carmspack

back to dogs that appear with regularity on very high levels performance dogs -- this one has a good source of Tom Leefdahlhof -- reminded by the FCI results and seeing Imzedrifts Niska placing so well (Swedish kennel) 

So this is "Danger" I mean how much better and deeper can a bite get ? von Wolfstraum: Danger schutzhund Working German Shepherd

Imzedrift's is a Swedish kennel -- I love when he states this "Imzedrift´s is well known for breeding healthy and mentally very stable dogs – factors which are critical in this type of dogs." My priority - extremely important - the more power the more the necessity for mentally stable dogs - which are sociable and safe . Hanhundar/Males
Imzedrift's Niska - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack

Another kennel using these recognized lines Adler-Stein-Kennels-News, Los-Angeles-German-Shepherds


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## carmspack

seeing the proud announcement of Vandals dog gettting a TDX , made me think of a comment that Jocoyn made on the Anthony "find it" -- which was "Tracking for highest level competition under pressure probably not.
Having fun, maybe getting a TD or TDX I don't see why not" . Having a record number of dogs with TD's TDX's and Urban tracking dogs , I can tell you it is not easy, much more than having some fun and going out to "get" a TD or TDX . Good nerves required , otherwise the distraction and being out ahead and in the open will fold the dog. Even in schutzhund dogs seem to have difficulty with tracking -- melt downs . So congrats on your TDX - ms Vandal .


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> seeing the proud announcement of Vandals dog gettting a TDX , made me think of a comment that Jocoyn made on the Anthony "find it" -- which was "Tracking for highest level competition under pressure probably not.
> Having fun, maybe getting a TD or TDX I don't see why not" . Having a record number of dogs with TD's TDX's and Urban tracking dogs , I can tell you it is not easy, much more than having some fun and going out to "get" a TD or TDX . Good nerves required , otherwise the distraction and being out ahead and in the open will fold the dog.* Even in schutzhund dogs seem to have difficulty with tracking -- melt downs .* So congrats on your TDX - ms Vandal .


You know why? 

Because most of the time it's the most neglected discipline. Most of the time people focus on obedience and protection, because it's fun. Tracking is something most do not have much passion for. 
Those that really have the passion for it, like my trainer back in Germany, she was the national champion in tracking multiple times and she takes any breed, any type of dog and can use tracking to boost the confidence in a dog and put an FH1/2/3 on that dog but that is because she loves tracking. It's her thing. 
I used tracking to boost Yukons confidence and he never folded or even recognized what was going on around him and he enjoyed it very much, it was his thing. It was easier for me to make him fold in agility than in tracking. Especially with food tracks (when they are that food driven as Yukon is), they can't do anything wrong and actually go from guidance to independently work it out and that is what boosts their confidence. They do something, they figure it out for themselves, they learn that they are left alone, and concentrate on the food track. 

However, in Schutzhund itself, tracking is the one thing that a lot of people just want to avoid. Going out, laying that track, then coming back hours later, teaching the dog to indicate, it just seems to be the one thing that a lot of people don't like to do. So most dogs fold not because they don't have the nerves, it's because they are just not as well trained in tracking as they are in the other two sections. Plus, the limited tracking places and that more and more people don't want you on their land anymore. 

At least that is my experience from years of watching.


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## wolfstraum

carmspack said:


> back to dogs that appear with regularity on very high levels performance dogs -- this one has a good source of Tom Leefdahlhof -- reminded by the FCI results and seeing Imzedrifts Niska placing so well (Swedish kennel)
> 
> So this is "Danger" I mean how much better and deeper can a bite get ? von Wolfstraum: Danger schutzhund Working German Shepherd
> 
> Imzedrift's is a Swedish kennel -- I love when he states this "Imzedrift´s is well known for breeding healthy and mentally very stable dogs – factors which are critical in this type of dogs." My priority - extremely important - the more power the more the necessity for mentally stable dogs - which are sociable and safe . Hanhundar/Males
> Imzedrift's Niska - German Shepherd Dog


Thanks Carmen, Danger is an awesome awesome dog! His co-owner's first passion was SAR, so he never got past Sch1...but he has no Tom Leefdalhof...his sire was one of the last sons of Orry v Haus Antverpa....my other litters from his dam were by Tom sons, and Zender Lusondai...and interestingly, Imzedrift ended up with Q v haus Shiho, Danger's sire.

Lee


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## Arkangel_BE

I dont know where too look for but i was told that one of the males of this letter went to Canada...?

Anyone know where to ?


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## tttop

arkangel, i know where this puppy is you speak of... on vancouver island, with a relative new person to the sport. i have not seen it but a friend has and said it shows very nice potential. as i always say, tell me when its a year plus then ill take a look
i have been interested in using fado gillianes in the past, not a flashy dog but you can see the power in him


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