# Bite inhibition w/ other dogs



## smme10 (Sep 29, 2020)

So my 9.5-week pup is at the biting stage, and I read it is important for them to learn bite inhibition. The only problem is that she is constantly biting my older dog who has a thick coat and never responds to the biting other than with more playing.

Curious if this can actually be doing more harm? As in.. she thinks she can bite this hard playing with all dogs when she's bigger.

We are trying to get her socialized with my brother's dogs, but we don't live in the same city so it's not everyday :/

She doesn't really bite us, because she's too busy playing with the other dog. When she does bite us it's because we have to break the dogs up because they're getting too rowdy and she's too hyped. So we just put her in her playpen to settle down.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i edited your subject line to be more specific so isn’t seen as one of the many other puppy biting threads.


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## smme10 (Sep 29, 2020)

Fodder said:


> i edited your subject line to be more specific so isn’t seen as one of the many other puppy biting threads.


Did not know you could do that... thanks!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

At 9.5 wks it's probable that the puppy is not biting hard enough to deserve a correction from your other dog. Your other dog will correct the puppy when needed. As will other dogs. Not to worry.


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## smme10 (Sep 29, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> At 9.5 wks it's probable that the puppy is not biting hard enough to deserve a correction from your other dog. Your other dog will correct the puppy when needed. As will other dogs. Not to worry.


Ahh, maybe you're right! She is still a small little thing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It is your job to stop your puppy from using your older dog as a chew toy. You brought the puppy home, not your older dog.

If you allow this to continue, some of the things that may happen are that your puppy will become more persistent and intense with bullying your other dog, your other dog may administer a correction that you and your puppy will regret (have seen other people's dogs get damaged eyes, damaged ears, and even death when allowed to work it out on their own), your puppy may never learn appropriate doggie social skills, and a host of other bad behaviors that will take a whole lot of work to fix if you don't address it now.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is your job to stop your puppy from using your older dog as a chew toy. You brought the puppy home, not your older dog.
> 
> If you allow this to continue, some of the things that may happen are that your puppy will become more persistent and intense with bullying your other dog, your other dog may administer a correction that you and your puppy will regret (have seen other people's dogs get damaged eyes, damaged ears, and even death when allowed to work it out on their own), your puppy may never learn appropriate doggie social skills, and a host of other bad behaviors that will take a whole lot of work to fix if you don't address it now.


With this, I have to abjectly disagree. The puppy is 9.5 wks, the older dog's reaction is to play some more. The puppy isn't bullying an older dog here!

If/when it gets to that point yes, step in. But what the OP described is harmless and most likely fun for both animals! IMHO...you can't jump to a worst case scenario always. What the OP described is harmless.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> With this, I have to abjectly disagree. The puppy is 9.5 wks, the older dog's reaction is to play some more. The puppy isn't bullying an older dog here!
> 
> If/when it gets to that point yes, step in. But what the OP described is harmless and most likely fun for both animals! IMHO...you can't jump to a worst case scenario always. What the OP described is harmless.


My neighbor's soft and submissive GSD killed their new puppy, punctured the skull, for these very same reasons. OP stated that the older dog does not respond, not sure where you are getting that it is playing with the puppy. Every day many times over we hear about people complaining about their young puppies biting and hurting them. I don't see where anyone would think that a dog would not feel pain when a puppy bites it. The very fact that the older dog chooses not to play with the puppy speaks volumes to me about the situation. I stand by my comment.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

My pup is now almost 15 weeks. Starting at 8 weeks lots of play with the older dog and the occasional Yelp. Now the corrections and tone from the older dog are getting more serious when the pup gets out of control. I have started stopping any preemptive bitting by the pup, really any bitting. I allow mouthing if both are doing it. I also step in as soon as older tries to separate. Biggest issues is when puppy becomes over tired. I also now let older dog start play session and not the puppy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

drparker151 said:


> My pup is now almost 15 weeks. Starting at 8 weeks lots of play with the older dog and the occasional Yelp. Now the corrections and tone from the older dog are getting more serious when the pup gets out of control. I have started stopping any preemptive bitting by the pup, really any bitting. I allow mouthing if both are doing it. I also step in as soon as older tries to separate. Biggest issues is when puppy becomes over tired. I also now let older dog start play session and not the puppy.


Good advice.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

When my GSD pup came home, we also had a 13 year old Golden Retriever. They initially played quite a bit. In fact, it was often the Golden that instigated the play.
After a few weeks, I realized a couple of things. First, that if they played in the house, it was endless. They would rarely settle down. Second, as the GSD grew and became stronger, over time, the 13 year old was only going to grow weaker.
My solution was, no more playing when inside. Only outside; that way when the older dog had enough, she could just come to the door.
It didn't take long for the new rules to be learned, and it was a much more peaceful environment.


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## smme10 (Sep 29, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My neighbor's soft and submissive GSD killed their new puppy, punctured the skull, for these very same reasons. OP stated that the older dog does not respond, not sure where you are getting that it is playing with the puppy. Every day many times over we hear about people complaining about their young puppies biting and hurting them. I don't see where anyone would think that a dog would not feel pain when a puppy bites it. The very fact that the older dog chooses not to play with the puppy speaks volumes to me about the situation. I stand by my comment.


Thanks for yalls responses! My older dog is definitely playing with the pup. I was just saying she isn’t correcting the pup when she nips at her. My older dog is a dominant female so she’s not letting the pup bite her. She’s allowing it.
We definitely split them apart once the little one gets too rowdy so she knows it’s not allowed. I know when my older dog is over playtime so I never let it get to the point where the older one has no other options. 
They both mouth at each other - a give and take kind of thing.


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## smme10 (Sep 29, 2020)

Jorski said:


> When my GSD pup came home, we also had a 13 year old Golden Retriever. They initially played quite a bit. In fact, it was often the Golden that instigated the play.
> After a few weeks, I realized a couple of things. First, that if they played in the house, it was endless. They would rarely settle down. Second, as the GSD grew and became stronger, over time, the 13 year old was only going to grow weaker.
> My solution was, no more playing when inside. Only outside; that way when the older dog had enough, she could just come to the door.
> It didn't take long for the new rules to be learned, and it was a much more peaceful environment.


This is great advice. I WFH, but I feel bad having the pup in her playpen all day so I let them play for a few minutes inside and then she goes back. I think I need to start setting inside rules though.


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## smme10 (Sep 29, 2020)

drparker151 said:


> My pup is now almost 15 weeks. Starting at 8 weeks lots of play with the older dog and the occasional Yelp. Now the corrections and tone from the older dog are getting more serious when the pup gets out of control. I have started stopping any preemptive bitting by the pup, really any bitting. I allow mouthing if both are doing it. I also step in as soon as older tries to separate. Biggest issues is when puppy becomes over tired. I also now let older dog start play session and not the puppy.


This is good! I have actually already started doing that. I immediately separate them when I notice the pup is getting obnoxious to the older one.

i think at this point the pup isn’t biting just yet - just nipping.

I also brought this up to our vet, and she said she did not notice any behavioral red flags from the pup.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm confused by many of these responses. If you always jump in and separate the puppy and your other dog, when does the puppy actually learn bite inhibition? 

From my perspective, and particularly if you do this when your puppy is really young, you have just increased your puppy's chances of being injured by another dog later on - precisely because you didn't allow them to be taught bite inhibition when they still had a puppy pass.

And before people freak out, it's true you can find horror stories with any topic. But the vast majority of dogs are pretty tolerant with young puppies, and very good at looking and sounding vicious enough to scare them when they're acting up, without doing any real damage.

I think if you have an older dog that IS truly being bullied requires intervention for sure. But your dog, OP, sounds like she's well equipped to tell that puppy when enough is enough.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm confused by many of these responses. If you always jump in and separate the puppy and your other dog, when does the puppy actually learn bite inhibition?
> 
> From my perspective, and particularly if you do this when your puppy is really young, you have just increased your puppy's chances of being injured by another dog later on - precisely because you didn't allow them to be taught bite inhibition when they still had a puppy pass.
> 
> ...


Tim, bite inhibition should be taught primarily by littermates. If for some reason it was not, it should be taught by other puppies of similar type, playstyles, energy levels, age and size, not by random adult dogs. Not all dogs possess proper interdog communication and social skills.

Your experience has been very different than mine at dog parks. Too many times I have watched people seek my dogs out to play with their dogs because my dogs are big. 

Why? Because their dogs have lousy social skills and they think that a) I would allow their dog to pummel my dogs, and b) they assume that my dogs lack social skills and will either pummel in return or take it. Neither is accurate. And I do NOT want my dogs interacting with a dog that has poor social skills, plays too rough, and is prone to over arousal. That is not what I teach my dogs, nor is it something that my dogs would tolerate. 

The problem with those dogs is that they were not socialized with an equal or with an adult dog that would appropriately correct them. 

Initially OP said that the older dog did not respond to the pup. A pup can't learn bite inhibition if it is interacting at will with a passive dog. OP later came on and stated differently but if one only has the OP's original post to go on, seriously, how do you expect a pup to learn bite inhibition from a dog that is not responsive?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Actually, bite inhibition in very young puppies is taught by littermates, early on, but by other adult dogs as well. The thing is, separating the puppy before the other dog puts them in their place teaches them nothing. 

Allowing the older dog to teach the puppy ensures that that same puppy, when it's older and has lost that puppy license, will be more respectful and cautious. And thus is much less likely to be hurt later on, say when they're 6 to 9 months old.

And here's what the OP stated initially, just because this keeps coming up:



smme10 said:


> The only problem is that she is constantly biting my older dog who has a thick coat and never responds to the biting other than with more playing.


No offense MAWL, but when I see advice offered that goes against everything I know about a subject, I have to say something! I do allow animals to work things out for themselves, perhaps more than some do, but in all fairness situations like you mentioned are exceedingly rare!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Actually, bite inhibition in very young puppies is taught by littermates, early on, but by other adult dogs as well. The thing is, separating the puppy before the other dog puts them in their place teaches them nothing.
> 
> Allowing the older dog to teach the puppy ensures that that same puppy, when it's older and has lost that puppy license, will be more respectful and cautious. And thus is much less likely to be hurt later on, say when they're 6 to 9 months old.
> 
> ...


No, offense taken but bite inhibition is taught by SOME adults too. Some adults overact, some not at all, and there is a whole spectrum in the middle. You make too many assumptions about the capabilities of the adults being well versed in communication skills themselves. Who knows? Maybe they were left to fend for themselves too and have learned that other dogs ignore calming signals so they won't have the ability to communicate this themselves and may go straight for a hard correction.

Don't ever think that a puppy losing its puppy pass is all about inappropriate biting. There is much more involved and I have seen more puppies nailed for over affectionate appeasement behaviors than for a hard nip.

Situations as I post is the norm. Culmination in a fatality may not be but letting puppies be pummeled is by no means normal.

If I recall correctly, you posted that your dog doesn't care to play with other dogs so much anymore. You attributed it to her maturing. My money is on she is tired of being hurt, tired of being confined in a dog park with no way out with dogs who ignore her calming signals, that's if she even uses them anymore after having her signals ignored by playing with bullies and having to fend for herself, and no back up. No offense intended, just my interpretation.

I never owned a *good* dog park dog that didn't mature into a dog that enjoyed dog parks for life. But I always was quick to step in and moderate bad behaviors be it my dog or someone else's.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Don't ever think that a puppy losing its puppy pass is all about inappropriate biting. There is much more involved and I have seen more puppies nailed for over affectionate appeasement behaviors than for a hard nip.


Where did I say anything like that? Please reread my post.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Situations as I post is the norm. Culmination in a fatality may not be but letting puppies be pummeled is by no means normal.


Who said anything about puppies getting pummeled??? And what is "your" definition of the term anyway?



MineAreWorkingline said:


> If I recall correctly, you posted that your dog doesn't care to play with other dogs so much anymore. You attributed it to her maturing. My money is on she is tired of being hurt, tired of being confined in a dog park with no way out with dogs who ignore her calming signals, that's if she even uses them anymore after having her signals ignored by playing with bullies and having to fend for herself, and no back up. No offense intended, just my interpretation.


Man you do spin things in a gloomy fashion! My dog gets along splendidly with most dogs, and has learned to ignore and/or avoid those she doesn't like. 

She LOVES going to the dog park still, and we've visited many in 6 different states. Never had a bad experience yet, but she's only 4 yrs old, so who knows, it could happen any day. I'll keep an eye on that!



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I never owned a *good* dog park dog that didn't mature into a dog that enjoyed dog parks for life. But I always was quick to step in and moderate bad behaviors be it my dog or someone else's.


I think here's maybe where we differ most, you and I. What you consider "bad" is not the same as what I consider bad! 

When my puppy was young, people warned that rough play can lead to "problems". Of course it never happened, and some of my dogs favorite playmates LOVED to wrestle and brawl! 

The funny thing is, in virtually every case, the dogs ended up being lifelong friends. I saw that profoundly when my dog was 9-11 months old.

She was a ball fanatic and "protected" her ball from any dog - in the dog park - that had the audacity to come within 10 feet! She did that with mock charges, but still. 

At that same time, her wrestling buddies could come right up. You could tell they just trusted each other!

There was a Mal female that my dog played with as a puppy though, who used to bite her too hard. At about 1 yr of age, my dog put a stop to that! No injuries, just a serious charge.

Flash forward, hadn't seen that dog for 4 months, she came to greet us as we entered the park.

My dog snarled and flashed some teeth to keep the dog away. I never said anything and did not intervene at all!

For 10 or 15 minutes my dog wouldn't let that Mal get within 6 ft. But the Mal kept play bowing and apologizing, and my dog finally relented and played with her a bit. And they never had a problem again.

So yeah, speculate all you like. But honestly, allowing dogs and puppies to just be dogs and puppies works well. From what I can see, intervening all the time creates issues that makea me and many others money, so by all means, intervene away!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Where did I say anything like that? Please reread my post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tim, just because you think your dog has no issues because you let other dogs pummel her in a dog park, doesn't mean that she doesn't, but maybe she is one of those dogs that didn’t. That makes her an exception, not the rule.

You say you have been to many dog parks with your dog on many occasions? Then you don't need me to define pummeling. Anyone who lets their dogs play with dogs that are too rough, or that have seen it, knows exactly what it is.

I could go tit for tat on bad experiences with other dogs and then some. I have been going to dog parks since their inception nearly 20 years ago plus I have always owned multiple dogs who freely interact together and with other dogs but under my supervision to stop rough play.

I can counter your Mal tale with the Lab that grew up with one of my dogs that was ball crazy. My dog carried those scars on his face to the day he died just for trying to play with his best friend who had a ball.

And you don't put a toddler in with a bunch of first graders and let them have at it and tell the toddler work things out.

Suggesting putting a potpourri of puppies and dogs together and letting them work things out is one of the worst things I ever saw advised here.

So yea, no speculation here, just the facts.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

I wouldn't rely 100% on older dogs to know what to do. IMO the "dog-culture," in which many dogs are never around other dogs ("I got my dog for me.") is such that some large % of adult dogs have bad social skills, both with other dogs and pups. This is why, again IMO, about 50% of dogs bark, snarl, or lunge at Jupiter on walks, and also why we had to leave the dog park. In that case, it was because Jupiter at 8 months was being inappropriately mean to puppies. We got Jupiter at 11 weeks and whatever teaching had occurred, it wasn't enough to teach him how to handle pups. He would become agitated whenever puppies were around and nipped several quite hard.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

If you notice my response stated that as a young pup of 8 weeks old the older dog and pup did not have me stopping it. But now at 15 weeks old. The older dog has become more serious with the “back off”, leave me alone message. Yet at times the puppy can be so wound up that it ignores these messages. So yeah I will step in before the older dog has to go too far and would thus harm their long term relationship.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

9.5 weeks? 
It's something to keep an eye on but not to over react to as it's perfectly normal. Eventually the pup will nip an ear, nose or paw and will be put in his place.

My pup was mercilessly persistent with my ever patient 5 year old. If it gets out of hand, you can step in but rest assured the dog will. And the pup will not start with the accepted ferocity of your other dog. jmo


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My older dog was patient and didn’t mind correcting the younger one. It worked, but I never left them alone. When she had enough, she gave a warning growl. When he got too intense, I crated him or separated them with a baby gate. When he got big enough to hurt her, since she is on the small side, he no longer did that. Even now, though, if he gets excited he can knock into her when they are playing and send her flying, as she is getting older. If he gets too excited, I separate them and let him run it off alone. I let them play but I never allowed him to continually bite at her.


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