# 97 lb male 58 lb bitch-can they be bred natural?



## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

I'm looking at a breeding where the female is small framed 58 lbs and the male is large framed 97 lbs. 
She has bred 1 time & delivered 9 pups (10th died in birth canal) all good size and she need no help delivering. She is a very easy breeder with my stud who is medium size about 82 lbs.

Male has never bred before and I would be bringing the bitch to him.
Should I A.I. due to size difference? He'll probably be 5 lbs - 10lb heavier by the time breeding might take place as he turns 2 (OFA done as well then) at end of December. He looks huge next to her and I have concern for her safety especially with his inexperience.

Next question then if A.I. is the best route. Who in the St. Louis area would you recommend/or NOT recommend. What about prices on A.I. and if I get a draw from him how many breedings does that come out to? 
Thanks


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:I'm looking at a breeding where the female is small framed 58 lbs and the male is large framed 97 lbs.


Why?? The female is on the lower end of correct size, and the male is way too big. The resulting puppies, if very large, could be very hard on her, especially if she has 10. 



> Quote: Who in the St. Louis area would you recommend/or NOT recommend.


In answer to that question, Dr. Thornberry and his associates are the best at any reproduction questions or difficulties. They are in Chesterfield, MO, a suburb of St. Louis.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your stud is the correct size/large. The stud you are considering for this breeding is too large. 

Mutts have been known to make some pretty freaky connections. My concern is not so much your bitch, but the pups themselves. I think that the bitch will either have fewer puppies and may need a c-section, and or the whole litter will just be smaller when she delivers. They generally catch up. 

I think though that this may be a poor choice structurally for the puppies. I guess what we strive for in a litter is balance and uniformity. If you breed to a dog that is not quite perfect in one area, you try to breed to a specimen that is dead on in that area, not over-compensate. But if I chose to breed to an oversized dog for whatever reason -- he's perfect in every other way, etc. I would use a bitch who is on the larger/heavier side of the standard rather than the small side. 

When people come for the pups. What are you going to say, Mom is generally 58 pounds, pop is 97? The pups will be anywhere in between. Now if your bitch was 72 to 75 pounds and the dog was 97, your buyers will know that they will most likely end up with a large dog or bitch. Lots of people like them that way. 

I think that your chances of pups that are out of proportion will be less likely as well if the sire and dam are well matched. 

I have yet to actually mate a dog and bitch that were that different, so I do not know what you can expect. I would not do it. I would try to find a different stud, one who is properly sized for this bitch. I think you will get better results. 

Good luck.


----------



## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Thanks for the spot on responses. I did not want to do this breeding because the male is just too large, you're all right. I actually bought him from a friend going through a divorce so that he would be saved from the boarding kennel where he had been housed for the last 4 months! I couldn't take having a dog like this be in that situation any longer.
This dog is drop dead gorgeous (albeit a bit too large) from West German showlines and a pedigree that I saw and went WOW! Triumph's Gucci grandson on one side and Neptune Bad Boll grandson on the other, titled parents. So I bought him , the most fantastic temperament , rock solid nerves, a little too laid back for my taste, but just a wonderful dog that got along famously with my pack and super super with little children. I had him 2 days and knew I would not keep him, saw he was just too big. So I sold him to someone close enough to me in St. Louis who takes him to work everyday and has 5 grandkids that love him dearly and play with him daily. I left the option open to breed with him as an agreement of the sale. Wanted to think about it but you all have confirmed what I already knew but Dang the guy is gorgeous with unbelievable temperament.


----------



## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

He is on the right and bitch in center is one I had considered breeding


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

You might run the risk of a C-section but then again you may not. Even these dogs that are big aren't HUGE when they are born. 

I don't go by weight alone, what is his height. Some of the W.German Showlines are very heavy in the body, but height they are within standard. 

What were the weights on the litter you female whelped. What is her pedigree body type? What is his Pedigree body type, are they all huge dogs. I would want to see both Pedigree's before throwing out a dog because he weighs 97 lbs.

Can you PM the Pedigree's to me and maybe pictures....

Val


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with Val. Weight isn't an appropriate measure of a dog's size in relation to the standard. An 85lb dog can easily become a 100lb dog if let get overweight. And just like people, different dogs have different ideal weights.

Our old boy, Kaiser, had a working weight (when active in SchH and in prime physical condition) of 92lbs. Now, a retired 10yo, he's about 97. He is 25.25" tall, so within standard. But he is long, and broad, and has a set of shoulders like a linebacker. He isn't oversized, regardless of what his weight is. I could have trimmed him down to within the weight standard, but he'd have been ribby and unhealthy to do it. He's within standard in terms of height and structure, but his healthy weight was a bit over what the standard calls for. No big deal. You've got to look at the total dog. When bred, he produced dogs who varied from middle size to large size, but nothing over standard.

Many of the German show lines ARE oversized, but many really are not. They've been bred for larger and larger, heavier boned body type, those big buffalo heads, etc.. and whether you like that structure or not, it doesn't mean 97lbs automatically makes a dog oversized.


----------



## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

The male is definitely not overweight as a matter of fact he needs to put on 5-10 lbs as hip bones were palatable and spine all the way down. Staying in a boarding kennel with crappy food did this to him.
Here is his pedigree 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=494359&modir=494358
Sire Baron Vom Silbergbergwerk
Dam Micky vim Durnachtal
My female's pedigree:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/521678.html
She also is very very lean could easily add 5-8 pounds but she just burns everything off with a very high metabolism.


----------



## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

I did not measure his height although I should have, but he was the largest gsd I have ever been around and was taller than anything I have here.


----------



## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

I was told to try to stay within 15% of the 2 dogs body weight would be ideal but I'm sure there are others here would think differently


----------



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

I'll pm you. I just had this guys brother here for a month of training.


----------

