# BiColor or Blk & tan?



## Julisa30 (Dec 4, 2019)

Would these two parents be able to throw a bicolor pup? Is my puppy a bicolor? He has no tan behind ears & has penciling on his feet. I’ve read that bicolors can have cheek patches & eyebrow patches as long as no tan is behind ears or under belly etc


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Black and Tan pup


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

The bi-color pattern is held on the RALY gene. The black and tan/recessive black/sable gene is on the A Locus. So technically either of the parents could be carriers for the pattern.

From the looks of it though your pup will turn out to be a black and tan. There is too much color on the face already and there is a tan spot on the chest that will likely expand out is they grow up. 

While on the topic, I've been looking for an example of a bi-color dog that does NOT carry recessive black. From the examples I've found they all seem to be at/a with the RALY gene duplicate for the pattern to show. I hope someone that sees this will find me an example to prove or disprove this.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Defintely Black and tan puppy. He has too much tan right now for me to think Bi-color. He will change as he grows.


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## Julisa30 (Dec 4, 2019)

Katsugsd said:


> Defintely Black and tan puppy. He has too much tan right now for me to think Bi-color. He will change as he grows.


So then will he come out looking like mom cuz he’s way darker then all his litter mates could he be blanket back? Like I said he has that penciling on toes. But I was caught on the tan on his face as well so I wasn’t sure.


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## Julisa30 (Dec 4, 2019)

I’ve had two breeders tell me it’s a bicolor but I wanted other opinions!


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Julisa30 said:


> I’ve had two breeders tell me it’s a bicolor but I wanted other opinions!


You can always do a genetic test that will tell you way before you see the final colors of your pup. My pup(in my profile pic) looked almost identical to yours at that age. My pup's father is also a blanket back and her mom is also a saddle back black and tan. I did a DNA test on my pup to see if she carried for any diseases or drug resistances the bonus was that I also got to know what her coat color was going to be. I went for the Optimal Selection product from Wisdom Health. It's an option for you! 

I'm also much to impatient for the wait and see kind of thing. I would predict that your pup might be darker like their sire and less like the mother, but I would still count on black and tan or blanket back. 

Are there any bi-color's in your pups pedigree?


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## Julisa30 (Dec 4, 2019)

JRadtke said:


> You can always do a genetic test that will tell you way before you see the final colors of your pup. My pup(in my profile pic) looked almost identical to yours at that age. My pup's father is also a blanket back and her mom is also a saddle back black and tan. I did a DNA test on my pup to see if she carried for any diseases or drug resistances the bonus was that I also got to know what her coat color was going to be. I went for the Optimal Selection product from Wisdom Health. It's an option for you!
> 
> I'm also much to impatient for the wait and see kind of thing. I would predict that your pup might be darker like their sire and less like the mother, but I would still count on black and tan or blanket back.
> 
> Are there any bi-color's in your pups pedigree?


They’ve had one pup from a previous litter be bicolor. How do I find this test?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JRadtke said:


> The bi-color pattern is held on the RALY gene. The black and tan/recessive black/sable gene is on the A Locus. So technically either of the parents could be carriers for the pattern.
> 
> From the looks of it though your pup will turn out to be a black and tan. There is too much color on the face already and there is a tan spot on the chest that will likely expand out is they grow up.
> 
> While on the topic, I've been looking for an example of a bi-color dog that does NOT carry recessive black. From the examples I've found they all seem to be at/a with the RALY gene duplicate for the pattern to show. I hope someone that sees this will find me an example to prove or disprove this.


How interesting! I just looked at Seger pedigree and the bicolors in there are recessive black.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Julisa30 said:


> They’ve had one pup from a previous litter be bicolor. How do I find this test?


You can use Embark, Wisdom-Health, etc. I used the below product since I didn't need the breed identifier part. It has a full health and trait panel as well. It will tell you if your pup carries long coat, dew claws, and other genetic traits. It is quite competitively priced at $130 to do all of the tests. Make note though that you will need to pick a product that is 'full panel' since if you just do a test for the A locus black and tan and bi-color both report as at/at unlike what was previously believed. There are some old charts out there that show that bi-color is on the A locus when it is not. Bi-color is a different gene entirely. I only know that Paw-Print genetics and Wisdom-Health products test for the RALY gene duplication that you need. It took me hours to figure out this part! 

When I did the DNA test it read at/at which according to the below chart would be bi-color. My pup came back at/at but was clearly black and tan by the time the test results came back. There was no chance she is bi-color. So I took to internet forums to learn that I was reading the report wrong. I was listening to the incorrect chart below and had no idea that the RALY gene was what I needed. If you look down the page on the website where the chart is posted you will see that the author demonstrated an 'anomaly' were the dog tested at/a and was bi-color. Turns out that this is the normal test result to make bi-color. 
Out dated chart to old ideas of color genetics

I would recommend doing the testing mostly for the health panel results, but the other stuff is fun too! 
https://www.optimal-selection.com/


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> How interesting! I just looked at Seger pedigree and the bicolors in there are recessive black.


Have you ever seen pedigree charts like this one? genetic pedigree
I'm trying to make some for bi-color phenotype. I have been cross referencing what I can with the optimal-selection public database of German shepherds. I have found ZERO dogs that are bi-color that do NOT carry recessive black. There are only about 3-4 dogs in the public database that are bi-color sadly. 

*Current theory: *the recessive black trait is expressed as co-dominate in the presence of the duplicated RALY gene. All bi-color dogs are at/a on the A locus and carry the duplicate RALY gene. 

*Implication: *A dog can have black, bi-color, and black/tan puppies. Current proof: my pups half sister Nova has had bi-color, black, and black and tan puppies with a black sire. 

Explanation of RALY gene


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JRadtke said:


> Have you ever seen pedigree charts like this one? genetic pedigree
> I'm trying to make some for bi-color phenotype. I have been cross referencing what I can with the optimal-selection public database of German shepherds. I have found ZERO dogs that are bi-color that do NOT carry recessive black. There are only about 3-4 dogs in the public database that are bi-color sadly.
> 
> *Current theory: *the recessive black trait is expressed as co-dominate in the presence of the duplicated RALY gene. All bi-color dogs are at/a on the A locus and carry the duplicate RALY gene.
> ...


A friend, showline breeder, once called Seger a bi-color sable. Not all sables have penciled toes and tar heels.. She made the same theory that a sable that carries black will have this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@JRadtke 

Have you asked on this page?








German Shepherd Dog Resource Center | Facebook







www.facebook.com





Or this one?








Canine Genetics | Facebook


This group is to help dog breeders and owners understand genetics and the importance of genetic diversity in the health of our dogs. We will discuss articles, and ask and answer questions specific...




www.facebook.com


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> A friend, showline breeder, once called Seger a bi-color sable. Not all sables have penciled toes and tar heels.. She made the same theory that a sable that carries black will have this.


I would expect that the combination for dark sables is aw/a. The patterning would work according to saddle/blanket/bi-color etc. Plus the shading created by the sabling itself. 

I would expect that this guy is aw/a with the RALY duplication gene. He is very clearly a bi-color patterned sable.
Example

I would expect that his guy is is aw/at with unknown/unlikely presence of Raly duplication gene. He is very clearly a saddle back patterned sable. 
Example

Your dog Seger vom Sitz von der Hose I would guess is a blanket back patterned sable without the duplication of the RALY gene. I would adore you if you did a DNA test on him and shared the results with me though! 

Still working on evolving/proving the theory. The problem is that I don't have enough with confirmed DNA results to fact check with.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> @JRadtke
> 
> Have you asked on this page?
> 
> ...


I just submitted to join both groups! Hopefully, they may have already done some of the work for me! 

But that might take the fun out of figuring it out for myself though.....


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Julisa30 said:


> So then will he come out looking like mom cuz he’s way darker then all his litter mates could he be blanket back? Like I said he has that penciling on toes. But I was caught on the tan on his face as well so I wasn’t sure.


I'd imagine he'd turn out more like his mom. I had a friend who got a puppy that looked similar to yours and he turned out a blanket black and tan. He had the penciling on his toes too. 

Does your pup have "tarheels" (black on the back hocks)? Here's my girl, for example - she's a melanistic bi-color - I believe she's black recessive, though I have not tested her to find out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JRadtke said:


> Your dog Seger vom Sitz von der Hose I would guess is a blanket back patterned sable without the duplication of the RALY gene. I would adore you if you did a DNA test on him and shared the results with me though!


ha! maybe some day but I'm not breeding him so not really any need to spend that money. I would be curious to know if my blanket back female who carries black has the RALY gene and how that applies to blankets vs saddles so her test may be a possibility.


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## Julisa30 (Dec 4, 2019)

Katsugsd said:


> I'd imagine he'd turn out more like his mom. I had a friend who got a puppy that looked similar to yours and he turned out a blanket black and tan. He had the penciling on his toes too.
> 
> Does your pup have "tarheels" (black on the back hocks)? Here's my girl, for example - she's a melanistic bi-color - I believe she's black recessive, though I have not tested her to find out.
> 
> ...


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> ha! maybe some day but I'm not breeding him so not really any need to spend that money. I would be curious to know if my blanket back female who carries black has the RALY gene and how that applies to blankets vs saddles so her test may be a possibility.


I took to one of the facebook groups that you posted to look into the question more. 

One of the posters had written a blog post on the topic. 
Blog Post - Bi-Color genes

She was able to help me find a bi-color male that does not carry recessive black. The male Bolle Ja Na Ka is one such example. Her blog post seemed to be in line with my theory of recessive black and the RALY gene or 'creeping tan' gene as described in the post both expressing levels of co-dominace. 

There are some aspects that I still haven't rapped my head around yet though. I'll have to keep thinking through it and finding more examples that I can cross reference with verified dna tests.


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