# Extra Shedding?



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

I'm seeing extra shedding with Apollo since Raw. It's so much that his hair looks thinner. I thought maybe a better coat might be coming in, but I can't see one. 

We're doing 1/2 raw and 1/2 kibble. I weigh everything. I was going to wait before doing raw, but a friend encouraged me to take the plunge and I did. He loves the raw and his stools are fine. He's only been on for a little over a week. We used chicken the first week and added turkey this week. His teeth look so much cleaner! And the black of his saddle, across his back, is shinier and the texture has changed (softer?). But, starting at his hips and down onto his hind legs and a little of his stomach, he is doing some serious shedding. The fur is dead looking fur - grey (instead of tan/cream) and brownish (instead of black). I'm talking chunks. Ok.







I think you get the picture. 

Suggestions on what this might be? on food changes or additions?

I'm feeling discouraged and wondering if I should switch back to straight kibble...

Thanks;
Ang


----------



## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

You've only been feeding raw for one week? 

I don't doubt the hair loss you're seeing, I'm just wondering if it could be something else unrelated to the diet? 

From what you're describing, the hair looks better on his back, but worse on his legs? It doesn't seem like both effects could be diet-related.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Tracy, one week won't make that drastic of a change. Maybe vet check is in order. How old is Apollo?


----------



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

Apollo is 3 years old. Yep, might have to take him in. I'm going to hold off on making the app. until next week. It's very likely I'm just being an paranoid, over-protective mum.







DH and I brushed him last night and it wasn't looking as bad as I had thought, once we removed the loose shedding.







He's doing great otherwise - running around and playing just as always.


----------



## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

could it just be he's blowing coat? Big hunks of hair can come out--especially off the haunches and butt...


----------



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

LOL I know that.







And that's probably all it is...and truthfully...I'm this bad with my skin kid too. LOL Worry, worry, worry. 

Thank you, all, for putting up with me.









TTYL;
Ang


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well the raw switch is something you will notice now with a new coat coming in! Not sure if you give salmon oil, and Vit E, but I would add this daily to ensure a great coat Maybe the change in diet made him go into the coat blow, body knew it could support the protein to make new fur? I think I am contradicting my last post!


----------



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

LOL That's ok. I started this post all worried and less than a full day later, I'm convinced it was just me being the paranoid mum I am! LOL 

I actually stopped all kibble today and went ahead and made a full raw switch. He loves the raw more, anyways! LOL I haven't been giving vit E (but I do have some, I remember reading somewhere to hold supplements until his diet is more established) but not salmon oil. I do plan on feeding salmon 1-2x a week, if that makes a difference. And Sardines. (Another question - I bought the sardines in soybean oil - is that ok?). We also give an egg 2x a week. 

TTYL;
Ang


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You can get human grade salmon oil gelcaps (I just got a bottle at Wal-mart for $8) and I would give it daily to be effective. The sodium in the sardines is what to watch out for. I give Jack Mackarel instead of sardines, but lately it is out of stock.
Yogurt is a nice supplement once you get past the transition to raw period. I bet Apollo is having fun with the new additions to his diet!


----------



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

Ok. I mentioned to a raw feeding friend about the extra shedding and how I had been concerned. I told her that I know I'm probably just being over-protective - since raw feeding is something new and "scary". I don't like change. 

Anyhow, she offerred to talk to a friend with Newfies who has been feeding raw for "a long time". So, the friend writes back and says that what I'm feeding Apollo is unbalanced and that it could be the shedding is from that. She also said that she needs to talk to me because it could be "nematodes" (what is that?). Anyhow, the email sounded all urgent and like my dog is being fed very incorrectly. 

So, here is what I'm feeding. Can I get opinions as to whether this is unbalanced or not? I don't want to call and have her have me even more paranoid and worried!! 

I weigh everything and I feed 2% of his body weight. I do roughly 50-50 with RMB and MM and a small bit of OM (like my thumb size - usually an ounce or less). This he gets at each meal. 

RMBs have been chicken quarters/thighs, turkey necks, and chicken wings. When feeding the quarters/thighs I give very little MM because they seem to be very meaty alone. MM has been chicken breast (when not feeding thighs/quarters), ground turkey, and beef heart. OM is chicken liver. For the first few days of eating the chicken liver, he didn't like the taste, so I hid it in a small container of mixed vegetable baby food (organic). Ok. Other than his RMB,MM, and OM dishes (divided into two meals during the day). He does receive an egg 2x a week with his breakfast meal. He also has had fish days 1-2x a week. Canned fish - sardines one day and salmon on another. He receives a tbsp of yogurt at breakfast every morning. 

I haven't started supplements yet, because we are so new at Raw, I wanted to give him time to adjust.

Thanks for your help, once again.


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I would add in fish oil now. When doing a raw diet properly theres no need for supplements. Its better to get whats needed through food than supplements anyway, they aren't digested and used as well. However even if you feed a lot of fish they have much less omegas than they used to. I use nature made double strength fish oil, and the dogs love them as treats. Start off with 4 a day as a "loading dose" for a couple weeks and then feed 2 a day as maintenance.


----------



## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Maybe add more beef to Apollo's diet? I know someone online whose dog was really itchy and thought maybe she had a flea allergy. But after adding more beef to the diet, the pup got better. I think it was a potential zinc deficiency.

Seems like there's a lot of white meat in his diet and not a lot of red. An increase in red meat (rabbit, beef, venision, lamb, pork, elk, buffalo) would probably benefit him.


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

there is a lot of white meat, but she's only just starting to feed raw. In detoxing the dog onto raw diet you will introduce protein sources one at a time and feed for approx a week. So once she is further along beef, pork, etc will be introduced I'm sure.


----------



## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

I don't think your menu looks out of whack, especially for a dog new to raw. 

As others have mentioned, as you go along, try to have as much variety as possible--including red meat like beef, pork, venison. 

But because of cost, I imagine most raw feeders end up feeding a diet that is at least half poultry. I do.


----------



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

Thank you all!










I will add the fish oil tomorrow. 

I haven't found a good source yet for beef RMB - just ground beef and the beef heart (and tongue - which we haven't tried yet). This is his first week receiving beef. I have found some pork sources for RMBs and plan on adding pork to the menu starting next week.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Get ahold of a meat processor and see if they may have a dog food grind? Beef heart/tongue is a good one if they will do it for u cheap. Most people wont eat these and it is good for dogfood. Also, many counties are having fairs and the 4-h'rs are butchering their stock, so it would be a great time to get the organ meat that noone wants...


----------



## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

I don't feed any beef RMBs, just muscle meat (heart and hamburger, mostly, plus beef liver.) There just aren't many (any?) bones on a cow that a dog can eat. Ribs make good recreational bones. 

Pork neckbones are decent "red meat" RMBs, and they are cheap. 

I think Most RMBs for raw feeding pretty much come from poultry of one kind or another--chicken, turkey, duck. And those lucky enough to get rabbit or other small game. "Red meat" is generally served as MM because the bones of cow, pig, deer, bison, etc. are just more than a dog can consume easily.


----------



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

Thanks Tracy!! You are so helpful..such an angel!!


----------



## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Whoops. Didn't realize you were still early in the process. I apologize.

I too do not feed any beef RMBs. Ris is only 45lbs and she cannot consume beef bones (not even ribs). So her beef comes in the form of MM. Most of her RMBs are poultry (mainly chicken and some turkey) and occasionally pork ribs. I try and add in red muscle meat as often as possible.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

When you look for fish oil, you may want to look for contaminant-free oil. 

Zinc deficiency sounds like a good place to start. You can add a bit more yogurt to his MM for some instant zinc as well as adding more red meat. (A small dash of ground cloves on the MM will provide minerals like manganese, magnesium, potassium and vitamin K.) I personally would also add vitamin C to his diet. You can either add as a supplement, or if you want to stay away from pills, just give him some commerically prepared applesauce (which is high in ascorbic acid) in his MM. During the transition, if his system is stressed, the extra vitamin C will be helpful. What he doesn't need is excreted in his urine. 

Once you get everything balanced out, you can add and subtract supplements and additional foods as you wish. But if his system is telling you that something is out of whack, I don't see a reason to hold off on supplements because that's what's usually done. Each dog needs his own plan, and it appears that Apollo wants a fully customized nutritional strategy.









Which is what he deserves!


----------



## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

No problem Jamie.







Thanks for your help.

Thanks 3K9 Mom!


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: AngelaMOCan I get opinions as to whether this is unbalanced or not?


In my experience you cannot determine whether a diet is balanced or not by simply looking at an ingredient list. If you truly want to know, you can follow the steps that I take when making a diet which I outlined here, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=727638#Post727638



> Originally Posted By: AngelaMOI haven't started supplements yet, because we are so new at Raw, I wanted to give him time to adjust.


From my understanding, kibble contains a plethora of nutrients, more so than is needed, and that dogs are able to build storage reserves of the vitamins and minerals that it consumes in excess. This storage reserve may be drawn upon if the dog finds that it doesn't have enough of this or that nutrient. 

So while your diet may very well be low in zinc, as most poultry diets are, a zinc deficiency wouldn't show itself so soon after a diet switch. 

Your dog should have more than enough zinc in reserve to meet its needs, especially since you fed kibble for so long before you switched and then when you did switch you began with 1/2 raw and 1/2 kibble. 

So while zinc may be an issue with time, I don't buy it as being the cause of your current problem.

When I made the switch for Penny to raw foods it coincided with the exact same time her allergy issues began. It took many months for me to rule out all other possibilities, because the fact that all her symptoms started when we switched diets was all I could think about- but it was merely coincidental.

So I would still be considering all other reasons for hair loss including mites, allergies, thyroid, behavioral. . .or maybe it is just the blowing of the coat. . .


----------

