# Dog Park Horror Story *Update*



## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Well, I went back to the dog park yesterday, and I saw a sign on the bulletin board. 

Paraphrase:

"Help Keep Aggressive Dogs OUT of the Park!

10/14/2012 A black lab MURDERED a yorkie in this park.

Dog was a black lab wearing a grey shirt. Owner drives a white/silver car. If you see this dog, call XXX-XXX-XXXX."

....So I guess the Yorkie didn't make it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

That is not fair. It is sad and horrifying - but it is as much the yorkie owner's fault as the labs

too bad - as I say - the dog parks are full of people who do not understand dogs at all.

Lee


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Sor sorry for the Yorkie, but I think the sign shoud be "Keep small dogs in the the small dog area".


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

I agree, but it said what it said.

The worst part was that the park was full of little dogs yesterday.

I systematically went around and warned all of the owners (politely, of course). And all of them thanked me and went right back to what they were doing.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

That's too bad the little Yorkie didn't make it. RIP little guy.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's sad, for everyone. It was nice of you to try to warn the other owners with the small dogs what could happen, but I'm not surprised that they didn't listen. My park is a 'one size fits all' so I have to worry about that constantly.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

That's very sad about the little yorkie ... and completely unfair to the lab also.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Thats sad about the yorkie : (


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I would get a pen and write on the sign "Keep small dogs on the small side so you don't get your dog killed like this owner did."

The black lab should be able to go back to the park with no issue at all. Labs are hunting dogs for crying out loud. They hunt rabbits, among other things, and yorkies look like little rats/rabbits. The yorkie owner broke the rules and got her dog killed. Period.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Sounds to me like this was a sign put up by an individual, possibly even the Yorkie owner. Ridiculous. While I feel for the little dog, the owner of the Yorkie was completely irresponsible in how they allowed the dog to participate in the large dog area. And dogs don't "murder" other dogs. Good grief.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm thinking about getting a half-sized neon posterboard to add to the bulletin board about keeping dogs on the appropriate side of the park.

I mean, what if I took Gabe on the 20lbs and under side? People would freak out!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I would get a pen and write on the sign "Keep small dogs on the small side so you don't get your dog killed like this owner did."
> 
> The black lab should be able to go back to the park with no issue at all.* Labs are hunting dogs for crying out loud. They hunt rabbits, among other things, and yorkies look like little rats/rabbits.* The yorkie owner broke the rules and got her dog killed. Period.


No, they are Retrievers. They were never intended to hunt, and still shouldn't be. IMHO this labrador was not a proper example of the breed, but that doesn't mean I place blame entirely on the labrador's owner. 

I also agree that the sign should be qualified with the small dog area disclaimer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Labs are supposed to be very soft mouthed so they can retrieve the game without damaging it. They do NOT hunt. Aimee is right...this lab is a very poor example of the breed.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

So sad.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

A 'soft mouth' and the ability to retrieve are learned traits. Labs and golden's may have been selectively bred as overall breeds for these traits to be easy to learn, but they do not know them instinctively.

All dogs, be they retrievers, hounds, terriers, etc. have prey drive. Regardless of the breed, any dog has the natural instinct to hunt and kill prey. All breeds share over 99% of the same genetic makeup and also share that genetic makeup with their closest relative species - the wolf.

This is a horrible story, and I feel terrible for the owners of both dogs involved, and anyone else who was there that witnessed it. Bringing breed into the equation and saying that because of its actions either dog is a bad example of their breed is just pointless though in my opinion.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

It's so sad that once again a dog has to pay for the owner's stupidity.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't want to turn this into a thread about labradors. However labradors ARE bred to have a GENETIC soft mouth. Period. They are not supposed to have a natural instinct to hunt and kill prey. 

"Labradors instinctively enjoy holding objects and even hands or arms in their mouths, which they can do with great gentleness (a Labrador can carry an egg in its mouth without breaking it).[34] They are also known to have a very soft feel to the mouth, as a result of being bred to retrieve game such as waterfowl."


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

looks like the yorkies owner is looking for the lab's owner if it is asking for a report of her showing up....retribution, vet fees...whatever....

There should be a disclaimer on every dog park entrance

*Dogs are predatory animals - they hunt and kill prey by nature. 
Smaller dogs will be at risk if allowed with larger dogs.
Owners must assume responsibility for their decisions to let their dogs loose with other unknown dogs. Both parties are equally responsible in the case of fights and injuries.
*
Just something to think about for those who just must let theirs into dog parks.

Lee


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

wolfstraum said:


> looks like the yorkies owner is looking for the lab's owner if it is asking for a report of her showing up....retribution, vet fees...whatever....
> 
> There should be a disclaimer on every dog park entrance
> 
> ...


Perfect!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I love your disclaimer. Ours just says "Use at your own risk", which I've interpreted as "If your dog beats my dog up, I'm going to beat *you* up", and I'm only half joking.
That's why I keep a tally of how many dogs are in there while we're there, and why I'll leave if I think a specific dog might create problems. So much easier, and law abiding, lol.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> looks like the yorkies owner is looking for the lab's owner if it is asking for a report of her showing up....retribution, vet fees...whatever....
> 
> There should be a disclaimer on every dog park entrance
> 
> ...


I agree completely. I could not have said it better. People should be responsible for their own animals.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Just the phrasing of the note on the board made me shake my head; I'd definitely put of Wolfstraum's letter verbatum up right below it.

I'm sorry, dog's don't understand the concept of "MURDER"


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## starburst (Jun 9, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *I would get a pen and write on the sign "Keep small dogs on the small side so you don't get your dog killed like this owner did."
> * .


I was thinking the exact same thing.... now thanks to this person every black lab in that park is gonna get the stink eye.


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## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

Ugh, the owner of the yorkie sounds like a peach. So many things could have happened to her dog on the wrong side-heck one of ours could sit on her yorkie and kill it.

I'm sure she feels guilty and is just lashing out. I hope she gets therapy.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Wow.. that lab needs a muzzle and an e-collar! Dog aggressive dog!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SewSleepy said:


> Ugh, the owner of the yorkie sounds like a peach. So many things could have happened to her dog on the wrong side-heck one of ours could sit on her yorkie and kill it.
> 
> I'm sure she feels guilty and is just lashing out. I hope she gets therapy.
> 
> ...


Actually, I don't think she does. Feel guilty that is. I think she thinks that her dog was murdered by a budding tiny-dog-serial-killer. 

And the saddest thing is that she does not accept any part of the responsibility of what happened to her dog, which means, I feel very sad for her next small dog. 

People who MUST place the blame on others so they do not have to feel the pain, don't make the changes necessary to keep their critters safe. 

And what can you do? I mean really? She lost her dog in a terrible way, you cannot really go up to her and say, "You fiend, you let your dog get killed!" 

I wish people in general were smarter.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Here's my take on this. If the lab owner did not suspect that his dog could harm the Yorkie, then both owners were equally at fault and this was just an unfortunate accident. If the lab owner knew (and they surely know now) that their dog cannot be trusted around small dogs then the lab owner is at fault. We are all responsible for our own dogs, but when you enter a public dog park (or any public place for that matter) you have to assume that the other owners are also responsible and if they believe other dogs are at risk from their dog, either leash, muzzle, avoid and/or inform the "at risk" dog owner of the potential for harm. There are many dog parks with no separate small dog area and the same thing could easily have happened on a public sidewalk or in a pet store.
I certainly don't agree with the "Murder" comment on the sign.

Let me add, that this incident has set up a "history" on the black lab. Should any similar incident occur in the future, this prior incident could be used as evidence of negligence by the lab owner. It's not a good situation to be in for both parties.


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## kgrossman (Oct 27, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> the dog parks are full of people who do not understand dogs at all.


Because if they did they wouldn't be at a dog park in the first place?


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't know if the Lab owner even understood the concept of Predatory Drift. It's not a layman term so to speak.
This was an incident at a dog park that had two separate sides and the Yorkie's owner chose to make a terrible decision and bring her Yorkie into the big dog side.
When the Yorkie got scared, ran and was screaming it triggered the pack of dogs to go after it. The lab was just the first one there. That's actually almost normal dog behavior. Dangerous as it sounds, that's what dogs do.

To the dogs that Yorkie stopped being a dog and became a prey animal. It was something to compete over.
I doubt that the similar thing could happen on a public street unless you have a pack of ferals, and at a pet store, none that I've seen that allow pets allow unleashed dogs. At least in my urban area, although I have read about ferals killing humans in various parts of the country.


I have to say if negligence was applied, then it has to be on the small dog owner. If not negligence, then ignorance. 
I have to agree with Selzer, this person probably has never had to take personal responsibility for anything in her life. Unfortunately, she had to learn a terrible lesson on why dog parks have two sides.
If a greyhound was in there it would have been over sooner.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

CarrieJ said:


> I have to say if negligence was applied, then it has to be on the small dog owner. If not negligence, then ignorance.


I'm not trying to defend the Yorkie owner in any way but I believe the reality of the situation w.r.t lab owner is, it may not have been his fault, but it is his responsibility.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

pfitzpa1 said:


> I'm not trying to defend the Yorkie owner in any way but I believe the reality of the situation w.r.t lab owner is, it may not have been his fault, but it is his responsibility.


Well, the lab owner was one of the first people on the scene, being proactive, crying her eyes and repeating "He's never done anything like this before!"

So I kinda tend to not lay as much blame on her. If he had an aggressive history, that would be different.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Anitsisqua said:


> Well, the lab owner was one of the first people on the scene, being proactive, crying her eyes and repeating "He's never done anything like this before!"
> 
> So I kinda tend to not lay as much blame on her. If he had an aggressive history, that would be different.


I'm sure the lab owner is probably fairly distraught over the incident, especially as it is the first time. The realization of the fact that ones dog can do harm is often more traumatic for the owner than the actual harm caused (though in this case it was sadly fatal).
As I say, stuff happens in the dog park and hopefully both owners can get together when the emotions clear and work something out.

Also sadly for the lab/lab owner, it now has "history".


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

CarrieJ said:


> I don't know if the Lab owner even understood the concept of Predatory Drift. It's not a layman term so to speak.
> This was an incident at a dog park that had two separate sides and the Yorkie's owner chose to make a terrible decision and bring her Yorkie into the big dog side.
> When the Yorkie got scared, ran and was screaming it triggered the pack of dogs to go after it. The lab was just the first one there. That's actually almost normal dog behavior. Dangerous as it sounds, that's what dogs do.
> 
> ...


Yea, they are faster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> I don't want to turn this into a thread about labradors. However labradors ARE bred to have a GENETIC soft mouth. Period. They are not supposed to have a natural instinct to hunt and kill prey.
> 
> "Labradors instinctively enjoy holding objects and even hands or arms in their mouths, which they can do with great gentleness (a Labrador can carry an egg in its mouth without breaking it).[34] They are also known to have a very soft feel to the mouth, as a result of being bred to retrieve game such as waterfowl."


Labs do eat though, don't they? And I would guess that they would even chew a bone if they got one, so they do have to know how to bite hard sometimes.

Plus they are a DOG (relative of the wolf!).


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

You're missing the point-- or did you just not read the whole thread? 

Initially, someone said they were hunting dogs, bred to hunt. That's when I said they were genetically bred to retrieve, and be soft-mouthed. Someone else said that was a trait that was taught, not bred. 

If you read my first posts, I specifically said that this labrador was, in my opinion,not representative of the breed. They are not supposed to have a high prey drive in that sense, especially when it comes to small animals. I never said they didn't have any in terms of a normal dog.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

thats sad about the Yorkie, I blame it on the owner of the Yorkie, why would you put a tiny dog in with a bunch of large dogs, it would be like tossing a squirrel in there, and as far as the dog park, they should have a separate area for little dogs


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

They did. She chose not to use it.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

ken k said:


> thats sad about the Yorkie, I blame it on the owner of the Yorkie, why would you put a tiny dog in with a bunch of large dogs, it would be like tossing a squirrel in there, and as far as the dog park, they should have a separate area for little dogs


Talk about crazy... at one of our larger fenced dog parks there's a guy who sometimes brings his goat in (claims it is a service animal) and gets all pissy when the dogs try and herd/jump on it.

We also have people who insist on riding their horses inside the fenced dog park (it is along a beach, so the horses can get in easily). There have been several incidents where riders were thrown from their horses when dogs attacked the horses, but some people will never learn.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Tigers and Lions have soft mouths too when they are moving their cubs. So do GSDs for that matter. I am shocked at how soft-mouthed my girls are. Babs brought that baby mouse onto my bed, and I bet it was alive -- ick!!! She wasn't considering it food or a toy. I think she was trying to mother it. Ick, ick, ick!!!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

:eyeroll: 

The next time someone starts bringing up "traits "that GSD's are bred for, including herding, protective instinct, etc, I'm going to remind people that "traits "are learned- not bred.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Of course the Lab owner hasn't seen that behavior; bringing a squealing prey object into a pack of larger predators isn't something most dog owner's have dealt with.
Predatory Drift isn't something that you see every day. I would hesitate to even say it would be a permanent thing. It's a triggered response. Very hard to train for, as I really doubt that generic Petsmart Training would even bring it up. Most behaviorist have heard of it.
It's not like a county bite record. It's a primal response to a screaming running thing that looks like a rat and smells like a dog....something a pack of dogs would drop into like a mindset.

Even a "soft dog" like a Labradoodle; could drop into that mode in that situation. It doesn't have to be a Lab, GSD, Husky, Greyhound. 
It may make a difference how much vocal control someone has over their dog but in that situation....I doubt it.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Of course, no one really knows whether the Labrador owner had seen it before or not. No one knows anything about the lab. The lab might have been a poorly bred Labrador. And the owner may very well have known, and maybe the Labrador owner was just as stupid as the Yorkie owner and ignored the fact that it had a dog that shouldn't be in dog park. This is all purely speculation on everybody's part. 

Regardless of all of the above, the main responsibility lay with the Yorkies owner. Anybody with an ounce of common sense knows that even if the Yorkie could keep up in spirit, there's no way to keep up in size or defense.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh man my dog is great with little dogs...just this weekend we went to meet my friend's new 3 lb, 9 week old, Scottish terrier puppy. That thing not only pulled on my boy's leash when it was on the ground, and at one point had my boy's tail and was pulling on it (I have video of the leash pulling, it was hilarious). But I'll tell you what, I've been in a dog park when a small dog starts to yelp, we have a westie in the family that one time started to squeal after something scared it, and my boy definitely went prey mode. Both times I was able to call him off (or catch him) but he was definitely out for blood so I know exactly what the lab's owner was probably dealing with and exactly what carriej is talking about.

I know all our dog parks say use at your own risk and you release all liability of anyone when you go into the dog park. I do hate it when there are dogs that owners can't control, or have absolutely no recall, but I know that MOST of our dogs wouldn't have any recall when they hear that loud pitched squeal/yelp. And if you've ever seen a small dog do it, they don't stop, they run full speed and just sound like a siren which just ramps all the other dogs up.

And yes...labs are BRED for soft mouths. They do have the ability to kill small animals though...I believe their bite strength is somewhere around a human's when it comes to pounds per square inch and it might be even less. But it doesn't matter because as humans we can easily bite through a small animal's neck/back (watch Bear Grills do it to a trout).


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Well of course the Yorkie's owner doesn't want to take any responsibility for what happened. Imagine the guilt they would have to feel then. Much less painful, by far, to blame someone else.


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

Even "if" the lab owner has seen predatory behavior towards little dogs before, is he supposed to keep his dog at home because some idiot is bringing a small dog inside a large dog area? 

I'm not keeping Teddy home because idiots bring five pound dogs into the park when there is a nice small dog park across the fence. 

And Teddy plays rough, sometimes, too. I warn the small dog owners, but I'm not denying my dog the pleasure of running freely over several acres. She needs the exercise or she can become a problem in a different way.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I agree. Even if the lab has issues with small dogs, it was in the LARGE dog area. The owner should be able to let its dog play in the large dog area without worrying about small dogs. It's like me throwing my cat into the dog park and complaining when it gets ripped to shreds. It's not supposed to be there and there's a reason that the segregation exists at that dog park.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Agreed. But if I were there, and I suspected my dog may have issues, I would most likely leave, just because I'd rather come another day--an ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure. So what if I have to cut it short by 30 minutes? One day isn't going to kill me. Even if I didn't suspect my dog was anything other than trustworthy, I'd still be right on them--just because of the nature of dogs in packs, as mentioned. Again--whether I was in the "right" or not, is not worth having something like this happen, and risk having my dog labeled "dangerous" or being sued or something equally ridiculous but feasible in today's world. 

To each his own, I guess--but I'd rather live to fight another day then prove my point and lose my dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that most of us who thought our dog might EAT a small dog would leave if we saw a little dog enter. It is very likely that prey drive was triggered in the pack, and this was the first time this dog acted this way. It is sad, but y'know maybe there's a reason that most parks, this one included, are segregated.


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

Of course, I don't think my dog will eat a little dog, but I do know that my dog can play rough and hurt a small dog, and I know that there is an ever present possibility of predatory drift kicking in. I am very vigilant - hyper vigilant, in fact - but it could still happen. 

But I won't leave because I would probably have to leave every time we go. My park is great about everything, but allowing little dogs. Officers even patrol and have ticketed adults who bring in children under twelve years old, but they seem to ignore the little dogs who aren't supposed to be in there.

I refuse to stop going because of the little dogs. We have a group of regulars who are very concerned about this, but we all agree that we would testify to the temperament of one another's dogs should a little dog get hurt. Everyone who knows Teddy know that she is friendly, playful, and sometimes submissive, but not fearful or aggressive.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Is anyone else feeling the... well, the *difference* in responses here than to another thread of the same nature?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Is there a rule in this dog park that small dogs are only allowed in the small dog area? If not then the Yorkie owner did not break any rules. Maybe they made a bad decision, but in the parks I know that have a separate area for small dogs there is no rule that small dogs are not allowed in the rest of the park. Then again the parks I have seen with separate areas (most around here don't even have them) to do not have a sign saying "big dog area" they only have the main park area and then a smaller area designated as only for dogs under a certain size. Maybe that's different at this park though.
Actually in the parks I've been to they have a rule that you can't leave your dog unattended or have them in one section ehile you're in another, so if you have both large and small dogs with you, then you'd need to stay in the main area since the large dogs would not be allowed in the small dog area and you can't put your small dog in there while you are out in the main area with your larger dog(s)...
I am not saying it was a good idea to have a toy dog there in the first place but I am saying it may not be a case of rules broken (or at least it would not be at the dog parks where I have seen.)


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

It's not against any rules to swim with gators, either, but that doesn't make it a good idea.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Well yeah, that is what I just said. That I was not saying it was a good idea, but a lot of people saying she broke the rules so I was just saying that it may not be the case.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh, I don't know. My responses have been pretty consistant between the original posting of this thread and it's update (this one)
My rambling point is: Predatory Drift can happen on the small dog side. All it takes is one squealing/screaming three to five pound Yorkie and a running start.
Most people on the small dog side are very bad about treating the park like Starbucks, so I'm actually surprised more deaths don't happen on the small dog side. No one seems to care or pay attention to their dog's behavior on the small dog side.
But, you have to figure that if your dog is freaked out on the small dog side; bringing it into the big dog side is just insane.
Dogs usually figure the higher the eye level the bigger the threat....well, that Yorkie probably got freaked out.
Kinda abusive ignorance on the owner's part. 
Chigagocanine, where I live most dog parks are separated, and the ones that aren't have a higher incident with injury rate. It's not a rule, but I have told people that while Alice is good with small dogs and I have vocal control of her.....some dogs are not good with small dogs. (Huskies, Greyhounds, some GSDs etc)
Some of them have actually thanked me and have actually noticed the pack before bringing the smaller dogs in. They seriously had no clue about dog behavior.
When I saw the woman from the smaller side bring her two small white fluffies in when there were three greyhounds running around having a good time....I left as I didn't want to witness a "horror"


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Jag said:


> Is anyone else feeling the... well, the *difference* in responses here than to another thread of the same nature?


 
If it seems that I'm letting the Lab off lightly (but I also think that the little dog's owners - in both cases - share the blame) it's only because I can understand that the frenzy of a running pack of dogs would have added oomph to the Lab's actions. He may have just being trying to get it first


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## HillaryCarolCrockettCher (Sep 24, 2012)

Small dogs have no business being in a dog park with big dogs. The attitude of small dog owners are that their little dog can be where ever it wants and act however it wants because even if its the rudest, nastiest little jerk its not going to do enough damage to anyone to get them in trouble. Poor little dog is always viewed as the victim. In truth most of them instigate aggressive behavior against them and the big dog and its owner always get blamed. Little dog owners need to watch their little dogs and be responsible for them! All dog parks should have separate areas for big and small dogs. You cant expect a big dog to know that a little dog is not prey, most of them act like something to be chased and bitten like a toy.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

In the dog park closest to me that has a separate area, the rules say the small dog/puppy section is for dogs up to 35 pounds, so really a small Yorkie could be in danger even in that area. If I had a toy breed dog like that I am not sure what I would do. Eta: Although I did take a puppy class with a 9 lb foster Shih Tzu and they did some off leash play, some of the other puppies were much bigger than him even though he was actually much older than the other puppies. He and another small puppy usually stayed out of the larger ones way and played together around the chairs where the big dogs couldn't really fit.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

HillaryCarolCrockettCher said:


> Small dogs have no business being in a dog park with big dogs. The attitude of small dog owners are that their little dog can be where ever it wants and act however it wants because even if its the rudest, nastiest little jerk its not going to do enough damage to anyone to get them in trouble. Poor little dog is always viewed as the victim. In truth most of them instigate aggressive behavior against them and the big dog and its owner always get blamed. Little dog owners need to watch their little dogs and be responsible for them! All dog parks should have separate areas for big and small dogs. You cant expect a big dog to know that a little dog is not prey, most of them act like something to be chased and bitten like a toy.


I totally agree. Not long ago I took Axel to a dog park in Lincoln NE. We were on a trip, and I thought it would be nice... WRONG. Everything was fine until these idiots brought 4 tiny dogs in. They were harrassing the big dogs to no end. I was heading for the gate, because I knew this wasn't going to end well, when one of the little beasts went on a full out attack on Axel. I was about 20 feet away and had is attention to some extent, telling him no, knowing full well if the beast inflicted some pain he could snap and it would be a disaster. He danced away while the small dog was still attacking and biting him. I grabbed him and screamed at the little dog to GET! The stupid bitch owner had the nerve to yell AT ME, saying "if your dog is that aggressive you shouldn't have brought him!" REALLY?!? "Your dog was attacking him! I was trying to prevent the inevitable you stupid..." I'm not kidding. This really happened. Its baffling how stupid some people are.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Dazedtrucker:

I was walking Ky around the neighbourhood one evening and this fluffy little white dog came flying off his porch and ran right at Kyleigh. Porch to my dog? About 3 seconds ... I wasn't able to grab the dog in time, and it jumped right up and grabbed onto Ky's scruff and started shaking. (Thinking about it right this second, it is kind of funny ... really? the kill shake from a 5 pound dog on a GSD?? You are on cheap drugs eh doggie?)

I digress. I grabbed the scruff of the little dog and hauled it right off of Kyleigh and held on to it. The owner comes flying out of the house screaming OMG OMG the shepherd is going to kill my dog. WTF? REALLY?

First off, Ky's not moving, she's sitting there, leash is on the ground (I swear she's looking at "fluffy" and laughing - you so picked the wrong dog stupid fluffy, my owner WILL kick your butt!)

Before I had a chance to say anything to the screaming woman, a man from across the street walked over, stood beside me, smiled at me and said, don't worry missy, I've got your back. I chuckled ... much older guy calling me missy ... isn't that cute. 

It ended on a bad note with the woman, she was adamant that MY GSD had caused her dog to run off the porch - because Ky has telekinetic powers you know. But, at least the Humane Society wasn't called, and the neighbour assured me that he would be a witness if anything came out of it. 

I was at the off leash park with Ky a couple of months ago and this woman was walking towards us, she had a small black dog running around. As soon as she saw Kyleigh (who was walking in a heel position for god's sake) she called her dog, picked him up and just stood there. Being the bi-atch that I can be, I stopped too. (and of course, so did Ky, I told her to lay down, she did.) I asked the woman why she stopped. Her response?

Well, my dog (who is all of 6 pounds maybe) was ATTACKED by a GSD last month and I don't want the same thing to happen. 

Attacked you say? Wow, he's recovered pretty fast from a GSD attack. 

No comment. 

Are you sure it was an attack? Because I'm pretty sure if a GSD "attacked" your dog, he wouldn't be alive. Let's face it, 70 pounds vs. 6 ... not much of a challenge. 

She backpeddalled ... well, the dog bit him ... 

I'm sorry to hear that, how many stitches?

Well, the bite didn't really break the skin 

So no stitches? See lady, it's people like you that tick me off. I'm walking my very well behaved GSD through the park, in a heel position, and you automatically assume that MY dog is going to "attack" your dog ... and yet, you don't even know the meaning of the word attack. I bet you tell all kinds of people that your poor little dog got "attacked" by a GSD and how lucky he is to be alive, when the dog never even broke skin. For all I know it was telling your little yappy dog to shut up, and you took offense because your dog's not socialized enough to be at the dog park. 

Done venting I walked off, Ky at my heels. 

About an hour later, I see her in the parking lot. She comes up to me, I'm pretty much ignoring her, giving Ky her water and hoping she'll go away. Her next words blew me away: I'd like to apologize. 

I dropped Ky's bowl, whipped my head around and looked at her, waiting. 

"You're right. My dog doesn't like big dogs, and no, I haven't really trained or socialized him very much. And the GSD? It wasn't a GSD, it was just a black and brown dog that snapped at her when she jumped in his face."

"So why did you lie?"

She simply shrugged her shoulders and didn't say anything. 

I looked at her and said, "listen, I don't hate you, I don't hate your dog. I hate the lies that people like you spread b/c you give dogs like mine - well behaved dogs - a bad name."

She simply said, I'm sorry again, and walked off. 

I saw her a couple of weeks later at the dog park, I was there with just Ky and she asked me if she could walk with me. I admit I was very hesitant ... do I really need to walk with a woman whose dog looks like a black squirrel? I said sure and we walked. 

Her dog? A huge PITA ... Ky ignored it the entire time, and anytime it went to be an idiot to Ky, I blocked it's path. I did manage to convince her to see a dog trainer, and that she needs to step up ... any body can OWN a dog, but not everybody can handle a dog ... Hopefully, she'll follow through and the next time I see her, she'll have a better handle on what she's doing.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

HillaryCarolCrockettCher said:


> Small dogs have no business being in a dog park with big dogs. The attitude of small dog owners are that their little dog can be where ever it wants and act however it wants because even if its the rudest, nastiest little jerk its not going to do enough damage to anyone to get them in trouble. Poor little dog is always viewed as the victim. In truth most of them instigate aggressive behavior against them and the big dog and its owner always get blamed. Little dog owners need to watch their little dogs and be responsible for them! All dog parks should have separate areas for big and small dogs. You cant expect a big dog to know that a little dog is not prey, most of them act like something to be chased and bitten like a toy.


Totally disagree with this. One of the responsibilities owning a "big" dog is being able to control the dog and not make excuses for its behavior. Every dog can be trained to not chase and kill the house cat, and if the owner is not capable of doing that then they need to realize their limits of control over their dog and "manage" the situation. It's called training!!

It's likely that the lab owner did not ever think that her dog could kill another dog, but now she does and her only choice is to manage the situation. 
We live in a world where many situations are not under our control and it is up to the responsible dog owner to "handle" these situations as best they can.

Small dogs have as much right to a public park as big dogs do, and sure a lot of small dog owners think it's "cute/funny" when their pooch hassles a big dog. However the onus on the big dog owner to manage the situation is a lot stronger because of the damage their dog can do. Especially with breeds like GSD's that get the bad rap. This is part of the responsibility you take on when you bring your dog out in public.

Accidents happen, and this was probably just that. Hopefully the lab owner will reach out to the Yorkie owner after things cool down.

Both owners are losers here, the Yorkie owner probably lost a cherished pet, the lab owner now has a dog that has a known aggression issue, is a potential financial liability and will have to be closely managed in public situations.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

kgrossman said:


> Because if they did they wouldn't be at a dog park in the first place?


No they would not be at the dog park.


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## kgrossman (Oct 27, 2010)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> No they would not be at the dog park.


Exactly; dog parks are one of the dumbest ideas ever...for several reasons.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

This is NOT a dog park bashing thread. Please take it somewhere else.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> looks like the yorkies owner is looking for the lab's owner if it is asking for a report of her showing up....retribution, vet fees...whatever....
> 
> There should be a disclaimer on every dog park entrance
> 
> ...


This is pretty much what the waiver at our dog park looks like, maybe a little nicer minus the kill part. 



kgrossman said:


> Exactly; dog parks are one of the dumbest ideas ever...for several reasons.


I couldn't disagree more!  The dog park where I work pays me good money!  Great idea if you ask me.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

The sad thing about these small dog owners in this type of situation, well a few things:
They have no concept of dogs being predatory animals mainly because they humanize their dogs to the point of disability. 
Rather than act non-committal to fearful behavior they reward it by cooing at the dog and petting it, letting the dog believe that fear based behavior is acceptable.
Some dogs will run or cower in fear and others will posture in a brave stance showing teeth (but not canines) raised hackles, barking, charging, etc. From what I've seen, this usually backfires for them, it tends to draw the aggression out of the recipient of this behavior.
And, no it's not cute.
To quote Steve Dunno: "If you want to over coddle something you need a houseplant or a cat; as neither species will have too many adverse behavioral side effects" (paraphrased)

Between my girls, Zoey the Weasel has a higher prey drive than Alice; the first time I saw packing behavior with them was when Alice bounced after the cat. Zoey vocalized and charged around the chair to head off the cat. I was watching and thinking: *Artie Johnson voice* "interesting" (but bad, so I corrected the behavior...to a point) That cat can handle an 18 pound terrier mix.
However, if I take Zoey to the dog park, we stay on the small dog side. She's not allowed to exhibit barrier aggression, charge the gate barking in the face of incoming dogs, or bully smaller fearful dogs. She's actually not bad, she was charged aggressively by a Pom and she did show avoidance....because she knew that I would address the issue. Which was nice.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> This is pretty much what the waiver at our dog park looks like, maybe a little nicer minus the kill part.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't disagree more!  The dog park where I work pays me good money!  Great idea if you ask me.


I think whats so hard about dog parks, as well as discussing them, is that they are hugely different all over the country. The ones in Colorado are not monitored by anyone, the cops could care less if they're following the rules, and although there are "rules" posted, very rarely are they followed because there's no one enforcing them. Add on top of that that I live in college town and dog parks seem to be college kids place to hang out while their "spur of the moment decision dogs" run amuck. Incidents like the only that is being discussed in this thread are a common occurrence and fights and other issues are abundant. Not to mention, people like to show up with their intact or in-heat females to try and find a good looking stud to breed to for a quick buck. Because of this I have a very poor opinion of dog parks and strongly discourage everyone I meet from visiting them...

However, I hear tales of dog parks that are privately owned, monitored closely, and actually maintained and visited by knowledgable dog people. I think I could enjoy a dog park like that... 

As far as the poor yorkie, I'm sorry that ignorant dog owners allowed such a horrible incident to occur. Another example of dogs suffering because of human stupidity...


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## kgrossman (Oct 27, 2010)

Anitsisqua said:


> This is NOT a dog park bashing thread. Please take it somewhere else.


Where would be a more appropriate place than a thread illustrating a tragic example supporting my opinion?


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

kgrossman said:


> Where would be a more appropriate place than a thread illustrating a tragic example supporting my opinion?


Make your own. 

My dog benefits greatly from the park. We have several acquaintances through the park the I value greatly. It's the only place Gabe can interact with other dogs since my old roommate moved away with her dog. It's the only place we can go to exercise off-leash in a large, open area. And it has been wonderful for us.

As a responsible owner and parkgoer, I'm sick of hearing about how it's the park's fault bad things happen. 

I asked nicely, please don't keep on.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

sashadog said:


> I think whats so hard about dog parks, as well as discussing them, is that they are hugely different all over the country. The ones in Colorado are not monitored by anyone, the cops could care less if they're following the rules, and although there are "rules" posted, very rarely are they followed because there's no one enforcing them. Add on top of that that I live in college town and dog parks seem to be college kids place to hang out while their "spur of the moment decision dogs" run amuck. Incidents like the only that is being discussed in this thread are a common occurrence and fights and other issues are abundant. Not to mention, people like to show up with their intact or in-heat females to try and find a good looking stud to breed to for a quick buck. Because of this I have a very poor opinion of dog parks and strongly discourage everyone I meet from visiting them...
> 
> However, I hear tales of dog parks that are privately owned, monitored closely, and actually maintained and visited by knowledgable dog people. I think I could enjoy a dog park like that...
> 
> As far as the poor yorkie, I'm sorry that ignorant dog owners allowed such a horrible incident to occur. Another example of dogs suffering because of human stupidity...


Yes, I completely understand, which is why I try not to take it personally. 

If you're interested, check out the park that I work at.. I like to think it's one of the better in the country, and certainly more safe than anyone here would think of a dog park as.  

www.meadowrunpark.com



Anitsisqua said:


> Make your own.
> 
> My dog benefits greatly from the park. We have several acquaintances through the park the I value greatly. It's the only place Gabe can interact with other dogs since my old roommate moved away with her dog. It's the only place we can go to exercise off-leash in a large, open area. And it has been wonderful for us.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

It really sucks about the lab and yorkie and it's hard to say who would have been at fault. Things happen. They are dogs, which is why it's always a liability to let them interact with other living things. This very well could have happened at the park where I work, where we monitor dog activity, their lack of aggression, temperament test them, etc. and make sure they're not annoying un-trained dogs. Because, well, things happen! All of our dogs interact together, while we do have a separate area that is for anyone feeling uncomfortable with the current play groups in the park or needing space for individual training. We've never had an issue with larger dogs going after smaller dogs, maybe it's because we require obedience on the dogs and attentive owners? Could be for a lot of reasons, it's just unfortunate that it happened.


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

Last week, an idiot woman comes into the dog park with her yappy chihuahua. All bravado. "He's tough. He doesn't know he's small. He can take care of himself." Yada, yada, yada. 

To which I replied, "Really? You think he'll be ok when he's crushed by that pack of dogs running this way?" She angrily scooped him up, held him for a moment, and then put him back on the ground where he continued to bark aggressively at anything that approached.

Stupid woman. I have been knocked over twice in the last few months by dogs playing and running around, and I'm a heck of a lot larger than a five pound chihuahua.

Park regulars know to stand against a tree if not standing with a large group of folks. LOL And park regulars know that our dogs would never get to play if we had to leave every time a stupid dog owner brings in their tiny dog.

And you don't have to know about predatory drift. You just have to observe a pack of dogs running for one minute to know that every small dog is at risk.  Unfortunately, you can't fix "stupid."


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Instead of thinking of a dog park in terms of 'good' or 'bad', I believe that it should be owners questioning whether their dog would be 'good' or 'bad' inside the fence. That would save everyone alot of trouble. But no, the park is there so just walk right in. Or maintain that they're bad, because other people have problems...I like them, and even if my puppy shows that he's totally disinterested in other dogs some day in the future, I'll still take him if only for the training opportunities.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Jo_in_TX said:


> Park regulars know to stand against a tree if not standing with a large group of folks. LOL And park regulars know that our dogs would never get to play if we had to leave every time a stupid dog owner brings in their tiny dog.


Not me! Last time I stood against a tree in the park, I got marked by a Rhodesian Ridgeback.


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

Anitsisqua said:


> Not me! Last time I stood against a tree in the park, I got marked by a Rhodesian Ridgeback.


:rofl: 

I've never had that happen, but I was sitting on a bench one day with Teddy resting under the bench, when a big male lab lifted his leg to pee on the park bench leg, but got Teddy's FACE, instead. 

Oh, that was so gross! 

I do admit that the dog park does come with certain risks.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Yes, I completely understand, which is why I try not to take it personally.
> 
> If you're interested, check out the park that I work at.. I like to think it's one of the better in the country, and certainly more safe than anyone here would think of a dog park as.
> 
> www.meadowrunpark.com


I'm in awe....:wub: We're coming out to visit my boyfriends family next summer and you better believe we will stop by!! At least to gawk for a while  Now if we had dog parks like that here, I'd be a believer for sure!!


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

You know, marking gives me another clue about that particular dog's behavior once off leash inside the park.
Does it sniff first or just come in without sniffing *investigating the environment* and start lifting it's leg (females will do this too)
Univestigative marking is a higher sign of dominance; I tend to leave when I see this as usually (most of the ones that I've seen) the dog doesn't really seem interested in playing with other dogs but challenging them.

One lady brought her dog in pulling like a Iditrod Husky on it's harness while she was telling the dog to: "Get 'em! Get 'em Boy!" 
Being that the dog in question was a large "lab mix" with huge jaws and was 80 pounds if he was anything. We left.

I think the worst I saw was once were heading to the gate and Gar said, "Wait, watch the Rotties"
We stop, and watch and these two Rotties packed up on a Lab totally not respecting the Labs owner and the Rotties owner(one of them), the female runs over screaming (literally screaming high pitched panicked voice) in high heel boots.....thus creating a worse scenario.
Her husband/boyfriend refused to get his rear end off the bench.....Scary.
More because the two dogs were going into that predatory mode and the Labs owner was going to become collateral damage.
We left.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Jo_in_TX said:


> Stupid woman. I have been knocked over twice in the last few months by dogs playing and running around, and I'm a heck of a lot larger than a five pound chihuahua.
> 
> Park regulars know to stand against a tree if not standing with a large group of folks. LOL And park regulars know that our dogs would never get to play if we had to leave every time a stupid dog owner brings in their tiny dog.
> 
> And you don't have to know about predatory drift. You just have to observe a pack of dogs running for one minute to know that every small dog is at risk.  Unfortunately, you can't fix "stupid."


I guess it depends on the park and the dynamics. I've never had to stand against a tree and we don't have large groups of dogs running in a pack I the dog parks I've been to. I don't stand out in the middle of playing dogs though, and I have seen a dog run into someone accidentally.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

CarrieJ said:


> You know, marking gives me another clue about that particular dog's behavior once off leash inside the park.
> Does it sniff first or just come in without sniffing *investigating the environment* and start lifting it's leg (females will do this too)
> Univestigative marking is a higher sign of dominance; I tend to leave when I see this as usually (most of the ones that I've seen) the dog doesn't really seem interested in playing with other dogs but challenging them.


This is great, and something to watch for, definitely. You can tell alot by the body language, but the initial behavior will tell just as much. I think we're all very proactive in avoiding trouble, and that's why we have enough good experiences to keep us coming back. Imagine how horrible it would be if we ignored everything, including common sense, while we were there!  You think we have bad stories now, lol!


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

Chicagocanine said:


> I guess it depends on the park and the dynamics. I've never had to stand against a tree and we don't have large groups of dogs running in a pack I the dog parks I've been to. I don't stand out in the middle of playing dogs though, and I have seen a dog run into someone accidentally.


We don't have "large" packs running, but Teddy loves to play with two specific dogs (both her age) and they run around a lot. And there's other little groups that run, as well. If a large number of dogs "pack up" we break it up. It doesn't happen very often, though.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Anitsisqua said:


> This is NOT a dog park bashing thread. Please take it somewhere else.


Okay.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

DJEtzel said:


> Yes, I completely understand, which is why I try not to take it personally.
> 
> If you're interested, check out the park that I work at.. I like to think it's one of the better in the country, and certainly more safe than anyone here would think of a dog park as.
> 
> www.meadowrunpark.com


Just took a look at your link - very very very nice place....!!!

BUT it bears almost no relationship to the typical public "dog park"....if one was nearby, I would almost be tempted by this - except for the price for multiple dogs! 

And - again - to the OP - this is a discussion board, and discussions tend to take on their own lives and directions.....

Personally I only ever visited 2 dog parks - the first being empty - so no conflicts; the second being a new one that I just went to with a very social young dog out of curiosity.....the potential for damage and incidents between dogs became evident pretty quickly - and the owners all just sat on benches chatting cluelessly....so no, not a fan of public municipal dog parks and discourage my puppy owners strongly from them.

Lee


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> J
> And - again - to the OP - this is a discussion board, and discussions tend to take on their own lives and directions.....
> Lee


I have no problem with what you said. I just didn't want this to become a bashing thread.

Kayos and Havoc already created a new discussion thread about dog parks, which is just fine. I appreciate the courteous manner in which it was done.


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

delete - wrong thread


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

sashadog said:


> I'm in awe....:wub: We're coming out to visit my boyfriends family next summer and you better believe we will stop by!! At least to gawk for a while  Now if we had dog parks like that here, I'd be a believer for sure!!


It would certainly be lovely to see you! Not enough German Shepherds here... only 4 I think including mine. 



wolfstraum said:


> Just took a look at your link - very very very nice place....!!!
> 
> BUT it bears almost no relationship to the typical public "dog park"....if one was nearby, I would almost be tempted by this - except for the price for multiple dogs!


Thank you... I know, I wish that this trend would pick up more and expand across the US... I hate the typical idea that a small chunk of land in the city is going to be a good idea when not monitored or screened before entrance even. The prices for multiple dogs is indeed intimidating; I don't know how most people here do it. It does help when they visit three times over a few months and the visits are credited toward their membership, then they have a rescue or student discount AND pay quarterly... but I know I couldn't do it with my three.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

How sad poor yorkie, with a dumbass owner if there are no signs that say "small dogs here and large dogs here" it should be common sense not to bring your tiny dogs where are big dogs to be expected. Good job on trying to protect the little guy. I am very discouraged to go do dogparks, last time I was there there was a dog fight followed by owners fight, too much drama. There should be a dogguard on duty because apperantely owners are irresponssible!


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Wow, I haven't been posting or reading in awhile and just saw this. How terribly sad for both dogs and owners. I posted on the other dog park thread but want to say as much as we love going to dog parks, I would NEVER take a toy or small sized dog to a big dog area! I never took my poodle/pom to one, ever. Too dangerous. You do not know what a dog's instinct might drive them to do. And as much as I trust Saber with small dogs, I take her away from any we don't personally know in dog parks because those suckers can nip, and I would be horrified if she retaliated. A nip from a little dog is a nip, but a bite from a GSD can be very damaging.

Also, the last dog park we went to is 37 acres. If you want to see what kind of dog park I am talking about, there are pictures on Saber's blog. We do NOT go to little cramped crowded ones. That is just asking for trouble.


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## Misty Creek (Jul 18, 2012)

I guess maybe I am over-protective, but I will not let my big dogs run loose with any small dogs - even my own tiny chi. To me, there is just zero margin for error when you have 90 pounds loose with 10 pounds. Granted nothing may happen, but IF it did the little one dies and the big one is labelled "monster". 

My sweetest old gsd has brought me an uninjured baby bunny and handed me small birds (also uninjured) who feel out of the nest. He and my female (neither intact) lived together in harmony for years...except when they got in a fight so intense that I couldn't even break them apart and landed her at the vet...after that they lived in harmony again. But, had that been a small dog, it wouldn't have had a chance. 

I agree that people with little dogs can do stupid things, but I believe that as owners of large, powerful breeds we have the responsibility to take the extra caution.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

there will always be stupid owners, we should think of ways that if we allow our dogs to play in a group once in a while how can we prevent tragedy like this from going on? 

I think maybe just make our dog focus on us not let it play in big groups and be very selective and snobby who you let your dog play with is the best way to avoid any issues. Specially if you have a typical shepherd that likes to lead the pack when its in a group. Some small dogs trigger a strong prey drive in our dogs but most don't.

Also go in the park when its dead that way you can easily control the situation without to many dogs in case a small one goes in that you think might trigger a prey response. 

It is usually hyper speedy small dogs that do trigger something the calm ones get ignored but if they are running in a pack they lose their brains specially in colder weather.


Julie do owners really get in fist fights over their dogs fighting? wow


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Wow. This thread shocks me.

I've been to many dog parks in our province, and most of them aren't separated into large dog and small dog areas. If I brought my dog to the park, it would be my job to ensure that my dog's enjoyment of the park doesn't infringe upon another dog's enjoyment of the park.

Both dog owners are obviously at fault here, but just from the OP, I would think the lab owner was MORE at fault. 

If my dog started playing with a smaller dog, and wasn't behaving like she usually behaves with larger dogs, or started showing signs of over-arousal, I would leash her and take her away. The small dog owner might not understand my dog, but I DO. 

The small dog owner obviously should have also been looking out for her own dog and grab it in time...but I think reading a strange dog is probably harder than understanding your own dog.

When Puppy was younger and I wasn't sure how she would behave with smaller dogs, I always kept her leashed and under heavy supervision for all interactions. Now that I know she plays really well even and is very respectful, I give her the freedom to chase/play with smaller dogs. If anything were to happen, it would be my responsibility because I ASSESSED that my dog was OKAY playing with a smaller dog. The small dog owner shouldn't be expected to know my dog better. 

Either way, this is just a great tragedy.  

If I were the lab owner, I would apologize/compensate the Yorkie owner appropriately. Whatever the reason, our dogs played, my dog is fine and the yorkie is dead...


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