# Color genetics questions



## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

I'm wondering what the color outcome possibilities of a black & tan female with a sable male would be? 

Female parents are black & tan with 3 black & tan grandparents and 1 solid black. 

Male parents are father solid black, mother sable. 2 sable grandparents 2 black & tan. 

Would at least 1 black puppy be likely?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Possible.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

MrsFergione said:


> I'm wondering what the color outcome possibilities of a black & tan female with a sable male would be?
> 
> Female parents are black & tan with 3 black & tan grandparents and 1 solid black.
> 
> ...


http://www.ehretgsd.com/GSDcolorGenes.pdf


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

One of my males, the mother was b/t the father a very dark sable who carried the black factor.

I got a very very dark melanistic bi color. The litter was a split/ 2 b/t's/2 sables/2 bi's


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

Thank you!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

JakodaCD OA said:


> One of my males, the mother was b/t the father a very dark sable who carried the black factor.
> 
> I got a very very dark melanistic bi color. The litter was a split/ 2 b/t's/2 sables/2 bi's


One of the parents has to carry the bicolor....it doesn't appear with breeding black to b&t or sable.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

The father of my pup's litter was sable. The mother was a blanket b&t. The litter consisted of 4 blacks (2 male, 2 female), 3 sable (2 male, 1 female) and 1 male black and tan. One of the grandparents was black.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How does sable work? A sable female (both her parents are also sable) was bred to my black and red male (both his parents are black and red). There were 8 dark sable puppies (4 males, 4 females) and 2 black and tan/red (both female) puppies. Does the male have to carry sable or does that make sense? I've never really thought much about color genetics since it didn't matter to us. We wanted rich color/pigment but did not care whether it was sable or black and tan/red.


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## Darkthunderplotts (Oct 28, 2013)

I'm curious about how the sable color or more coloring patterns work in the GSD as a whole I read the genetic chart but it didn't make much sense to me. I know how to breed the hounds towards a specific color scheme and not lose the brindle in their coats but if you don't breed the lighter colored dogs in every so often they will begin to come up a solid color which is a fault conformation wise. Looking at my girls parents and the gene code chart she should not have turned out the coloring she is unless I missed something


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Sable is dominant -- at least one parent has to be sable for there to be sable puppies. Black and tan is recessive to sable. Recessive genes such as black or black and tan can be hidden by the dominant gene for generations.

With Liesje's litter, although the dam is sable with two sable parents, you would need to look further back to find the black and tan recessive.


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

I'm looking more at this page: GSD Color Determination & Genetics

So the only way possible to get a black out of a black & tan, would be if the black & tan has black recessive? Looks like b&t/b&t and b&t/bi-color will never produce a black even when paired with a solid black.


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## Darkthunderplotts (Oct 28, 2013)

ok I'm the new kid and this helped me understand the colors some so for the other newbies 4GSD - Coat Colours


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

From most dominant to most recessive:
Sable
Black/Tan
Bi-color
Black

All dogs have 2 genes for color, one from each parent. The dog will express his most dominant color gene, but can carry another color gene as his recessive. So a dog with a sable gene will BE sable, because it is most dominant. For his second color gene it could be a second gene for sable, in which case he can only produce sable offspring as the only color genes he can contribute to the offspring are sable. Or it could be a gene for another color, in which despite being sable himself he can produce the other color.

In Nikon's litter, given his lines he is most likely homozygous black/tan. The sable female is obviously not homozygous sable or all the pups would be sable. She could carry any of the other 3 colors as her recessive in order to produce black/tan pups. If her recessive is black/tan, then the pups are homozygous black/tan. If her recessive is bi or black, the pups would still be black/tan because that is the color gene they got from their sire and since it is more dominant it will trump her color genes and they will express black/tan.

Black is most recessive, so the only way for a black puppy to be born is if both parents carry the gene for black. They do not need to BE black themselves. If they carry black and any other color they will be the other color, but can still produce black puppies. So 2 black/tans can produce bi-color or black, if they carry those as their recessives. Same for a black/tan bred to a bi-color, black could be produced if both carry it as their recessives.


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

Okay thank you. So I'm almost positive looking at her lines that my girl is b&t/b&t so will not produce any black no matter the partner. That's sad  haha


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Chris Wild said:


> From most dominant to most recessive:
> Sable
> Black/Tan
> Bi-color
> ...


Excellent info! Thanks!

So where does white come into this? I know it is a 'masking' gene, but whites popping up after 3-4 generations of straight black-and-tan pairings means... what?

Thanks for the education here, I'm learning a lot!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks Daphne and Chris! Looking at the bitch's pedigree I see a black and tan dog as her grandmother (and great-grand father) so that must be where the black and tan females came from? All the other dogs in the 3-gen are sable but if you go farther back you start getting more black and tans.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Very interesting. My pup is black, but his parents are b&t (her parents were black and b&t) and sable (his parents sable and black). Since Varik's parents are b&t and sable, does that mean he would only have b&t or sable pups? (Not that I'm going to breed him..this is theoretical as I try to understand).


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

Is Falk a bi-color? Or does he have an extended saddle?

Rina vom Germelhaus


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Falk von den Wolfen? He's a blanket B&T.


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

That means the parents were black&tan+black recessive, and sable+black recessive. Because of the two black recessives that is how you got a black puppy. If bred with a sable+sable recessive you would get sable puppies, sable+b&t recessive, you would get sable or black&tan puppies, sable+bi-color recessive you would get sable or bi-color puppies. With sable+black recessive, you could get sable or black puppies. 

Same for if bred with a black and tan, replace everything sable in the previous statement with black&tan.


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

Yes, he's a few lines back on my girl. Thanks


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

Got Rina's genetics test back, she is black & tan (obviously) with black & tan recessive. So no black puppies in her future! lol


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## Kong (Jan 17, 2014)

*Color Question*

I have a 3yr old GSD. He is mostly black but has tan on his front paws going half way up his legs and he has white on his hind legs, stomach, butt and small patch on the underside of his tail. Would he be considered a tricolor?


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

marbury said:


> Excellent info! Thanks!
> 
> So where does white come into this? I know it is a 'masking' gene, but whites popping up after 3-4 generations of straight black-and-tan pairings means... what?
> 
> Thanks for the education here, I'm learning a lot!


I'm certainly not a genetics master, but the White would only pop up if both Color parents have the masking gene. You could have a solid list of B&Ts, but if the 4th gen sire has the gene, he can pass it down the line even after breeding with a non gene carrying dog. Now, match one of the "gened" B&Ts with another B&T that carries it, boom, white dog.

In Finn's pedigree (if Pedigree Database and the breeder can be taken for 100% truth) he goes back to CH Delta's Elegant Lady of Kway, a pure white. Her Great Grandfather is CH Pine Cone's I'm Easy, who was a B&T. The B&T and Sable continue back from this point.

Per breeder records, Kway's parents and grand parents were solid white on both sides. It's when you hit her great grand father on her mother's side when you see the B&T. Obviously, both dogs had the gene and since I'm Easy was a CH B&T, it can be surmised that his mate was a B&T who carried the gene and dropped a white.

Any color dog can be a carrier...you just have to put the right dogs together to make a white. Obviously, you will never get a "colored" dog out of two whites, but in theory, you could match a white with a color and find out what the gene is masking...i.e...a B&T who has never had a sire or dam in another color other than B&T in their history and a White might make all B&T puppies (obviously there would probably be a diluted color factor, but for S&Gs, let's say they all come out with no dilution) or could make a mix of colors other than a solid white depending on what color the white is masking.

Finn would be a crap shoot; Father's side has the earliest color at 1979(?) and they were mostly B&T while his Mother goes pure white all the way back to the early 40s where it's a mix of B&Ts and Sables. 

I hope this helps. If I am wrong, hopefully one of the Pedigree/Gene people will correct me, but this is what I've learned so far.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Kong, can you get a photo of your dog?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Sable is dominant -- at least one parent has to be sable for there to be sable puppies.


Not necessarily. A white bitch/dog can produce other colors including sable. To produce sable pups, the white parent must carry the gene for sable, however b/c the color is masked the bitch/dog will appear white rather than sable. Because sable is dominant the white dog/bitch might produce sable offspring even when bred to a black or BT GSD.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Chris Wild said:


> From most dominant to most recessive:
> Sable
> Black/Tan
> Bi-color
> ...



I have so much more to learn.....You guys and ladies are truly genius with GSD


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

This was brought to my attention by a member that found her color interesting... the pigment of Kessy...
KESSY vom Trompetersprung

I've never seen one like this, but I'm also a newbie and mainly see the Black/red or tan....Pardon any wrong terminology....


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

This is both my pups father and mother...Mother being behind the father....If you had to guess, what do you think Banes pigment will turn out, or is that even possible to answer? 
Omaco Vom Fleischerheim


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My guess is he will look similar to the dog "Ken" on the top half of his pedigree. He will be black and red, in his puppy photos I see some lightening on his face already and some of the dogs in the pedigree have some fading on their saddle so I don't think he will have a larger black blanket type saddle but I think he will be a nice black and red with the traditional black saddle and black nose.


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## Kong (Jan 17, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Kong, can you get a photo of your dog?


I am not sure how to embed a picture in the thread, I will post a picture of him on his back, you can see the tan in the front paws and the white in the rear. Thanks.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If instead of doing a quick reply you click on Advanced you will find more options. Then scroll down to where you can upload a photo file.


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## Kong (Jan 17, 2014)

Here is a picture


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Looks like a very nicely colored bicolor to me.


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## Kong (Jan 17, 2014)

Thank you very much! The the reason I think he might be a tricolor is that his front paws are tan and black and his rear legs, his webbing, butt, and underside of his tail are all white.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

GSD don't come in tri-color.  They can just have varying shades of the tan/brown on their bodies.


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