# What is up with all these lines? Should they ever cross?



## FluffyDog (Sep 21, 2020)

So, I’ve been looking at breeders a little, and I thought I had a handle on the differences between the different GSD lines, but apparently not, as I still feel confused. How many different ‘types’ are there (i.e., German working lines, Czech, West German Show, American show)? What are the best qualities of each? Are there any breeder’s lines that are know to be particularly ‘hot’ and therefore difficult for a newbie to handle? Should I be concerned if I see a breeder mixing lines? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

IMO, you are asking the wrong questions. You have to narrow down what you want to do with your dog and the traits you would hope to see in your dog. Then look for breedings likely to produce what you want, which is no easy task. Mixing show and working lines is pointless to me. Some working lines are very sporty and some are extreme either in prey, aggression or both. It is akin to choosing a vehicle for a certain purpose except vehicles are identical based on make and model and dogs have genetic variability within lines or breedings.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You can do a google search on different lines. The problem with mixing show lines and working lines is you produce digs that don’t excel in either field usually. The results are also no where near as consistent. If I wanted a working line, I would find one that east fit what I was trying to do, and vice versa for showlines.


----------



## FluffyDog (Sep 21, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You have to narrow down what you want to do with your dog and the traits you would hope to see in your dog.


Okay... I know I want a dog that is a companion, first and foremost. Then next in the list of priorities is the CGC at a minimum (although I suppose that would tie in to my first statement), then Schutzhund, and then tracking (I understand this is a part of Schutzhund. I’m talking about further tracking titles). As for qualities, I want a dog that, most importantly, doesn’t have a nervous temperament (so well bred). The dog should be naturally protective, but not overly aggressive. The dog should also not be going, going, going all the time and spinning in circles if they aren’t occupied every second of their life. But they should also be able to keep up with me (I run, and am generally active and spend a lot of time outside training my current dogs. We hike about a mile together every morning). Do you think any of that conflicts with itself, or if it’s realistic to find a dog that has those qualities?



Bearshandler said:


> You can do a google search on different lines.


I did Google, but I worry about it spitting false information at me (I.e., ‘doodles’ being an actual breed of dog... Seen those articles so many times when looking up Poodle stuff...). So I figured I would ask the people who know the breed the best, just to be absolutely sure. 



Bearshandler said:


> The problem with mixing show lines and working lines is you produce digs that don’t excel in either field usually. The results are also no where near as consistent. If I wanted a working line, I would find one that east fit what I was trying to do, and vice versa for showlines.





Chip Blasiole said:


> Mixing show and working lines is pointless to me. Some working lines are very sporty and some are extreme either in prey, aggression or both. It is akin to choosing a vehicle for a certain purpose except vehicles are identical based on make and model and dogs have genetic variability within lines or breedings.


Interesting. I guess that marks the breeder I was looking at off the list, then. Oh well. I had a funny feeling about all the ‘pending’ tests on their dogs anyways.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Don’t get off track on Czech or other similar differences. There are three major lines and each has a distinctive look, and certain behavior and temperament traits. Study the differences between ASL, WGSL and WL. There are also pet lines which may have a mix of lines or even other breeds back in the pedigree. There are two ways to choose a dog. One is by outcome. If you want to do protections sports or you want a family pet, you can choose a dog by the tasks you want to do. The other is by line. People here have a preference for task oriented dogs, but for a first dog, I think it’s most important for most new GSD owners to get a dog with medium drive who is somewhat more social than standard. I’ve heard ASLs can be easier. Energy and drive are not the same thing. No matter what line you get, the dog should be well bred with a good temperment.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

FluffyDog said:


> Okay... I know I want a dog that is a companion, first and foremost. Then next in the list of priorities is the CGC at a minimum (although I suppose that would tie in to my first statement), then Schutzhund, and then tracking (I understand this is a part of Schutzhund. I’m talking about further tracking titles). As for qualities, I want a dog that, most importantly, doesn’t have a nervous temperament (so well bred). The dog should be naturally protective, but not overly aggressive. The dog should also not be going, going, going all the time and spinning in circles if they aren’t occupied every second of their life. But they should also be able to keep up with me (I run, and am generally active and spend a lot of time outside training my current dogs. We hike about a mile together every morning). Do you think any of that conflicts with itself, or if it’s realistic to find a dog that has those qualities?
> 
> 
> I did Google, but I worry about it spitting false information at me (I.e., ‘doodles’ being an actual breed of dog... Seen those articles so many times when looking up Poodle stuff...). So I figured I would ask the people who know the breed the best, just to be absolutely sure.
> ...


Maybe not American show lines, but every other line of shepherd should be able to do what you want. CGC doesn’t tell you much about a working dog at all. You need to figure out what type of shepherd you like. This link has been posted a million times, but it describes the differences very well.


(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


Ultimately the specific pairing is more important to you than the lines.


----------



## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

FluffyDog said:


> Okay... I know I want a dog that is a companion, first and foremost. Then next in the list of priorities is the CGC at a minimum (although I suppose that would tie in to my first statement), then Schutzhund, and then tracking (I understand this is a part of Schutzhund. I’m talking about further tracking titles). As for qualities, I want a dog that, most importantly, doesn’t have a nervous temperament (so well bred). The dog should be naturally protective, but not overly aggressive. The dog should also not be going, going, going all the time and spinning in circles if they aren’t occupied every second of their life.


This sounds like a reasonable list of wants for either a well bred show or working line. I’m not sure, but I think ASL is not common in bitework. So it may just come down to the look of the line and finding a breeder you trust to select a good breeding and specific puppy for you. 

If you are thinking of doing Schutzhund, you might consider visiting a club. It would be especially helpful if that club had both show and working lines (which I believe is not exactly common). I think if Schutzhund is something you might want to explore with the dog you should be aware that every GSD isn’t necessarily capable of the work just because they are a GSD.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think your search should start with meeting/watching dogs. Visit clubs and watch dogs work. Talk to experienced people at the club about your expectations and their experiences. The picture you have in your head can not be accurate without real life experience.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Working lines have significant variability. They certainly have little in common with ASL's or WGSL's, but the variability is significant. To Fluffy Dog, I still think you need to broaden your conceptualization of what you want. I wanted a companion in my dog and have one but I am confident you would not want my dog. By companion, I think you mean the type of dog you feel capable of living and working with. If you want to do schutzhund/IGP, you don't need an aggressive dog, but if you want to have fun and accomplish some goals, you need a dog with good to very good prey drive, which is a relative trait based on one's exposure to different dogs. High prey does not equate with hyperactivity. They are two different traits, but high prey dogs are a challenge as pups and then usually mature to a less constant energetic state. Trying to get a moderate drive dog for sport will not be much fun. Finding a dog with confident aggression is more and more difficult, so if you find the right breeder you can likely find a good sport prospect but don't expect the dog to be protective. It might be but sporty dogs are sporty and generally not protective or aggressive. A dog with sound nerves from working lines that is very social with good to very good prey that is sporty and not aggressive sounds like what you are looking for.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've seen a couple of showline/working line crosses that were really nice. But it doesn't seem to hold past the 1st generation. 

what David said above. Go watch the dogs. Find clubs. Go visit. We are all still meeting in small groups, outside.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I missed about wanting to do Schutzhund, in which case the OP needs a dog suited for that. I still say a first GSD should be one that is biddable and less intense. Definitely look for a dog with a good off switch. Also, be sure you are going to follow through in the activities you want to do. Titling a dog is a significant time commitment. I’ve seen people get drivey dogs with good intentions, and then turn them into house dogs due to lack of time or opportunity.


----------



## heyitsfour (Jul 20, 2020)

if you're curious about schutzhund and are interested in participating in it, i recommend you find a local club and go visit them. schutzhund is a big time commitment and requires a special dog. i'd go and watch a practice or two, just to get an idea for what the sport is like, and then i'd ask them for breeder recommendations if you like what you're seeing. they'll be your best bet when it comes to finding a breeder that locally breeds dogs that are properly balanced for the sport. good luck!


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My old girl is a cross between American and German show lines. It was an 'oops' mating, where mom pulled a 'Harry Houdini' type escape to get herself in with the male. Her father was a son of the 2000 Sieger, Ursus v. Batu , and her mother's father was Dallas (Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes) the top American herding dog for 2000. She's a very nice dog, but I quickly realized she would not win conformation points in either the American or SV style conformation shows, as she didn't conform to either type. I was also told she really didn't have the correct temperament for schutzhund - although she would willingly bit the sleeve, she would get anxious, and go into defense mode too easily. I was told she lacked the necessary confidence.

I like her conformation, there's not a lot wrong with it, but I have seen other ASL/GSL crosses that inherited the worst features of both lines, and were just a total mess. 

Until she lost her hearing to old age, she was an excellent watchdog. She likes to sleep just inside the door to the house, so she would be the first thing and intruder would see if they pushed their way in. I've never had to find out what would happen next, but she would certainly bark loudly at a stranger. She still barks when my tenants come into my part of the house, and she's known them for over a year.

Would I deliberately buy a dog that was a mix of lines again? No, I wouldn't, but that's because I wanted to show in comformation, and her structure didn't fit with either show ring, nor did she have the right temperament for IPO.


----------

