# Can I ruin a dog?



## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi,
I know this will sound pretty odd to most of you, but I had my first _ever _training session yesterday with my dog (first with my dog and first of my life). Just a little background--the dog is 2 years old and is way better trained than I am. While I've been around dogs for years and years, I've not done obedience with them. This dog is my first dog as an adult and I wanted to do everything right and well with him.

Between figuring out which foot to step off on, how to hold the lead, where to put the reward treats, and when to encourage, how to pet, etc..., I think I was just awful. I don't just think it. The trainer indeed said as much. I feel like a real idiot, and for as much as I'm trying to get everything straight in my head about what to do and when to do it, my biggest concern is that I'm going to ruin a fantastic dog. Sadly, I didn't even master the walk today. What on earth is going to happen when I have to do something truly challenging?

Those of you with much, much experience (and frankly, if you've had more than one official training session you've got heaps more experience than I), can you tell me anything that will make me stop being such a slow learner and whether I can truly ruin my dog? If so, I don't know what I'll do!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

can you ruin a dog, yes.
will YOU ruin your dog, NO!

you're here, you're asking and you're willing. dogs that are "ruined" come from homes that don't care or aren't wise enough to ask for help.

a dutchie isnt going to be an _easy_ dog for a first time dog owner, but its definitely possible with work, dedication and patience with him and most importantly <u>yourself</u>!

thats all, just felt the need to say that before i went to bed









oh, and uh, if your nervous chew speariment gum. i dont know how or if it really works, but supposedly its some dog show trick and makes your nerves less detectable to the dog


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## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Thanks so much for the wisdom. I think I started off with a Dutchie because, temperament-wise, he's not the typical Dutchie. He's super sweet and calm. I had terrible dreams all night that involved fires, burglars, and wolves that I wasn't able to protect my dog from! 

Have any of you ever worked with brand-spanking-new dog owners in obedience? Were they complete knuckle-heads at first? I just kept thinking, "Sheesh, you have a Ph.D.; why the heck can't you walk a dog the right way? Or pet him the right way, for that matter?!"


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I've worked with those kind of handlers and in 90% of the cases is disheartening, not because the can't learn, but because the CAN and stop trying at the third class and leave the classes for the husband/wife/son etc.

Remember that training is supposed to be a dance, you can put all your brain on the task, but for doing the movements properly you need to develop "muscular memory" like any dancer and you get that not only understanding the exercise, but repeating, repeating and repeating it. It can take a good month before you see it start coming naturally.

Also divide training in small steps you can manage, it is not only valid for the dog, but also for handlers. By example, if you are working with food reward in that moment (and you are in a safe environment) drop the leash, leave both of your hands free to properly reward the dog. If you are working leash corrections use your voice to reward and only give treats after releasing the dog, when you no longer need the perfect tension (or lack of it) in the leash. To learn how to manage a leash attached to a large dog and a bag full of slimy treats that insist on keep glued to each other and to fall to the floor without loosing one or two fingers thanks to the said large dog is too much at first for somebody with only two hands. Toy reward is even more difficult, I'd leave that for later.

Malleable pups survive being trained from zero by dumb owners, your 2 years already trained good dog will be perfectly OK.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntai
> 
> Malleable pups survive being trained from zero by dumb owners, your 2 years already trained good dog will be perfectly OK.


My Lucy can testify to that!








Keep it up, you'll be fine.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Doesn't sound like there is anything wrong with you at all, just typical new person learning something new. 

The trainer, on the other hand . . . .

I'm sorry he made you feel so inadequate. There is a lot to learn and a lot to know as a handler. New handlers/trainers often don't realize how body-language oriented dogs are, and how self-aware people have to be about how they move and interact with their dogs. And hard to be natural and flowing once you DO become self-aware! So it is more tricky than people realize. But that is the trainer's job, to show you, but in a positive, encouraging, confidence building way! 

Honestly, if you are not enjoying yourself with this trainer, and come away feeling like a failure, it is the trainer that is failing you! 

There is nothing wrong is saying that you and your trainer are just not a good match, and moving on to find someone else. In the meantime, the best thing you can do with your new dog is just focus on having fun and building a relationship. 

And as Camerafodder said, you already have a good dog, no worries of ruining him! He is there for you to help you learn!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I did practice the complicated (for me) obedience moves without the dog first. When I got used to the exercise without the dog (being comfortable as to where my hands and legs were, etc) I started with the dog. Also I would practice small sections of a more complicated routine first and then put it together when the pieces were OK.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote: Between figuring out which foot to step off on, how to hold the lead, where to put the reward treats, and when to encourage, how to pet, etc...,


This was a beginner class and the instructor was pushing ALL of that??

BAD instructor!!

When I taught beginner obedience classes the first day was spent mostly allowing the dogs to settle in and talking to the owners about leashes and collars and what to use as treats and asnwering questions and just making it a very relaxed, POSITIVE experience.

I'd say the instructor was the one who was awful - not you!


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

i kind of had a harsh trainer for my storm. he was an ex canine cop and although the dogs listened, they listened through fear of him. my storm is a bit fear aggressive, so this guy i believe was going to make him worse. i stuck with the 6 week course, but although it was guaranteed for life i never went back. storm is now 16 months old and doing great with just him and i working quietly together. i took what he taught me and did a spin on it without the harshness. i do quite a bit of socialization, plenty of walks, i let my kids bring a lot of strangers over to the house for storm to build a trust that a stranger isn't always bad. he will bark and be wary of the stranger, but in a few minutes, once he knows the person is not a threat is fine. i'm still careful with whom i let into my home though. like the other night the domino's pizza guy put his hand on my screen door as if he was going to barge in the house. hey, i don't know this guy from a bag of beans. so storm goes instantly into protective mode. well, hey, that's what i expect from a gsd. but training, depending on the location, it's very hard to find a good one. one, that's in between harsh but gets the dog to listen. i find the best way is to get a referral from someone who has been through the class. i felt so inadequate at some of my classes i actually came home and cried. it was like he would embarass us if we didn't do it right!!! hang in there, finish up if you can, absorb what you have learned at class, then you can have the tools to try it between you and your dog.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I tend to agree with everyone else, the instructor is expecting *way* too much of you. Does he know you haven't ever trained a dog? 

Training should be fun for the dog, not a stress pit for your dog becuase his handler is stressed out. 

Here's what I would do: practice 15 minutes a day with the dog, focusing on doing one thing perfect. Train when you're relaxed, I like to train after my kids are in bed and all the days mess is cleaned up.

Walking in perfect ring formation takes timing and practice. Not unlike jumping rope or step areobics, it's not something you can master immediately. It's rediculous that the trainer expects you to get this the first night.

Practice your left hand grip - pinky to the dog - when you're out taking an exercise walk. The slack doesn't matter much at first, just hold it in your right hand. Maybe it might confuse a dog of lesser intelligence but I never found the left foot right foot thing matters anytime other than when a judge is watching you!


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

It does take a while for you to get it right. There are a lot of steps and the "correct" way to give a command. 

I trained my first dog via classes many years ago (old methods of choke chains) and am now going to puppy classes. I'm relearning everything and there are a few differences. I've just handed the classes off to my 17 year old son who wants to learn how to train her and he is having difficulties with the "correct" way. The trainer is gently telling him the details. If the trainer made him feel poorly about himself I wouldn't continue with her.


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## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Oh my gosh, thanks so much for the fantastic advice. I don't feel quite as much like a fool as I did yesterday. I'm not at all the sensitive type, but thinking that I was going to do something in ignorance to cause harm to my dog shook my confidence.

I don't mean to sound as though I'm blaming the trainer, although I was a little surprised by his tone with me. He's a smart, good guy, and I figured the problem lay with me instead of him. He, too, is a former k-9 trainer and I think it's been a long time (if ever) that he's trained someone with zero skills.

If I can trouble you with one more question, the handler said I needed to be more enthusiastic when I'm praising my dog. I'm really working hard on being more effusive and animated and downright silly when I praise him, and I thought I was getting it, but apparently I'm still missing the mark. Years of being influenced by Cesar's stressing CALM assertive energy, coupled with the fact that I work with some pretty explosive students who need someone who's calm and cool, have made me even less reactive than I thought I was. Does anyone happen to have any good advice for getting in touch with my inner extrovert (I draw the line at digging out my junior high cheerleader costume!)?

Again, a million thanks for your kindness.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have been doing competitive obedience for a long time nad I still step off wrong now and then.

It takes muscle memory for dogs to learn to get a straight sit and it takes muscle memory for the human to be comfortable moving with the dog. 

If you are in SC have you thought about checking out Connie Cleveland? I do not know how close she is to you but you can google her.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I dealt with several trainers that were quite abusive with people. If I stayed it was because they were nicer to the dogs.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

You won't ruin your dog by having to take time to learn all there is to this dog training. If it was easy everyone would have a perfectly trained dog and trust me, they do NOT.

You may have done better than you think you did. I know sometimes I feel like a total klutz doing some new dog thing and when I'm done someone will say I did well (and I'm all focused on what I know I did wrong). Thing is much of the time I was doing alot RIGHT too.

If you feel the trainer was putting you down for being new at this, that's something different. I'd either speak to them after class to see what's up or clarify any questions. Or just wait until the next week to see if maybe they were just having a bad day.

If you finish up the sessions and still aren't clicking, well, welcome to my dog training world! I've been to classes/instructors I loved! And been to others that just weren't a good fit for me. Whether philosophically, or just that we don't click, or I'm just at a level or have experience (or lack) that another instructor would be more beneficial right now. 

Hey, I have to drive over an hour to where I now like because it's best for me and my dog. But I went to other classes/instructors before finding it.


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## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Again, this is surprising, enlightening, and encouraging. I am really surprised by how many people have said that they know trainers who are kind of jerks when dealing with people (I wouldn't think this would be a good way to keep business). Also, you've mentioned some points that have never crossed my mind. I think I felt more confident when I didn't know how much I didn't know! And finally, I truly appreciate your encouragement. This is something I want very much to do well, and the seed was definitely planted last week that perhaps I'm not as cut out to do this as I thought. I feel a lot better going back for round 2 (and 3, 4, 5, etc...) knowing that there are some really knowledgeable people who don't mind offering their advice, too.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

lucy34, you'll do just fine. And stick out the lessons, I'm thinking you were just overwhelmed (I know I was when I first started too). The fact the trainer got on you for not praising enough is a GOOD thing in my mind cause it shows he believes in how important praise is.

Sometimes old timey trainers are much more into the 'correct when they are wrong' and NOT the effusive praise when they are right. And real praise for the dogs, specially in the beginning do need to be a bit over the top. Super high voice, happy expression, joy joy happy happy love love love. I could care less if I seem/sound like a crazy person if it helps the dogs, but I know that for other people it's a bit out of the norm for them and they have to really push to remember to do the same.


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## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Thanks so much, MaggieRoseLee for the advice on praise. And the trainer really is a good guy, I was just really overwhelmed by all that I needed to know and all that I obviously didn't know! I definitely don't mind making a fool of myself if it's going to benefit my pup. I'm just glad I do this training by myself because my family would think I'd turned into a crazy woman since my default mode is calm and introverted!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: I'm just glad I do this training by myself because my family would think I'd turned into a crazy woman since my default mode is calm and introverted!


That's too funny! And dog class should take you a bit out of your comfort zone for that!

I'll always remember doing 'attention' training downtown on busy Main Street. I was at the stage of trying to keep my pups head up and looking at me from a sit directly in front of me. There are tons of distractions with traffic and people so the location is ideal.

So I made my training plan for the day, got all the tons of teeny hotdogs cut up for the training session and drove downtown. I had just started up with Bretta sitting in front of me looking up adoringly (cause I keep spitting out hotdogs into her uplifted face) when it started to rain. So I readjusted my position on the sidewalk to go closer to the wall and under an awning, to continue spitting the hotdogs down to her as the rewards for the 'attention'.

A few minutes into it, I saw out of the corner of my eye that a woman had come striding out the store door with purpose and was headed my way (I'm still spitting out hotdogs to Bretta) and when she neared she kind of hesitated and then said 'excuse me'. I released Bretta and praised to see what was up and now the woman actually appeared to be a bit embarrassed.

Turns out the woman was the manager for the store I was training in front of. But it turned out it wasn't a store, it was a restaurant. And I wasn't really standing in front of a wall, it was wall about to my ribcage but window higher than that. The fact there were people trying to eat and sitting just on the other side of the window (inches away from me) and THEY couldn't see I had a dog. THEY just saw some 'crazy lady' looking down, talking to herself and spitting something onto the ground periodically. None of that was helping their mealtime and she walked out in a bit of a rage from all the complaining and to ask me to move.

Course when she rounded the corner after exiting and saw the dog, SHE knew what was happening and was actually pretty nice about asking if I minded moving just a bit down the sidewalk. And I didn't, but it was pretty funny that she thought I was some crazy homeless person talking to myself and dribbling food out of my mouth!!!!

So you can see how 'bad' this dog training can get!


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## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Oh my gosh, that is _hilarious_! And also a nightmare for me! I don't know how I ended up a teacher because if given a choice I'd be invisible and _not _mingling with large groups of people. I don't even know what I'd do if I realized I'd been inadvertently giving a restaurant full of people a free dinner show!









I guess I've grown used to pushing myself out of my comfort zone with humans each day, now I need to be as un-self-conscious when praising up my pup. Thanks _again _for the encouragement and the funny story.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

I suggested to Lucy about reading "The other end of the Leash" by Patricia Mcconnell. 

I believe this book really helps connect both the dog and the human, in the gaps of communication. 

It really has helped Jasper and myself.

I also think Lucy's background in the Martial Arts is a win/win situation with both positive attitude and mental toughness


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## floridahutch (Nov 1, 2008)

Lucy,

I'm also in my first obedience class with my first GSD, Duke, a two year-old male rescue. I've previously only trained cocker spaniels, "soft" dogs--much easier. I know how you feel because I've been there and, I also know it WILL get better because it has for us. I totally agree your desire and commitment to learn is the most important ingredient for success. 

Your negative experience with your trainer could possibly have been due to feeling overwhelmed, or maybe it's a large class where you don't receive much personal attention, or maybe you're not a good match for each other. Sometimes you need to re-evaluate. Years ago, I took a sweet, submissive, 20-lb, eager-to-please cocker to an advanced group class with an old-school "yank and crank" trainer. I wasn't educated in dog-training but, morally and instinctively I knew it wasn't right when this trainer, during extended stay training, started brutally jerking my cocker to the ground with a choke collar if she responded to someone sweetly calling her to come. I quit right then and there deciding I didn't care if she ever did an extended stay if this was the necessary training method. I know so much better now...

My positive-reinforcement trainer has never agreed I was awful, even if I was. She is unfailingly our most devoted cheerleader. She encourages us, celebrates our small improvements, patiently demonstrates and explains techniques, problem-solves things that aren't working for us, and is as committed to our success as I am. In both private lessons and group classes, she always emphasizes the positive and all the dogs & handlers seem to flourish, including a 9 year-old girl with a hound puppy! He may not be a bad trainer but, he may not be the right match for you. If you don't feel comfortable, you have to work to overcome that as well as try to learn the techniques--why make it harder than it already is? Sometimes you choose a professional for their qualifications, not for their "bedside manner" but, in this pursuit I think it's a critical consideration to enable you to feel supported and encouraged. It's possible a private lesson or two, or a conversation about how you're feeling, with this trainer might establish a more personal connection. If not, I'd move on.

I also heartily agree with Jake on reading Patricia McConnell. I was fortunate to discover her before bringing Duke home. I've read everything she's written and have incorporated many of her techniques in our training tool box. Her advice on recall alone was invaluable when Duke slipped out of his collar and ran away across a large open lake area on our very first walk out of the yard. I was in a sheer panic but, remembered her words, tried it and was joyfully rewarded by a big goofy shepherd racing me back to our gate. As a dog-lover, Phd ethologist, certified applied animal behaviorist and owner of a small sheep farm with working dogs, she advises from personal, practical and scientific knowledge and experience. I'd start with "For the Love of a Dog" and "The Other End of the Leash." She also has a website with a link to her blog, also fascinating and helpful. The link is: http://www.patriciamcconnell.com

I also believe it's important to regularly remember where you and your dog started from and then celebrate the improvement you've made, even it it's tiny! There have been many steps along the way when I've felt discouraged and I've learned to brush it off and look at how far we've come instead. It'll happen for you. It's happening for us. Sincere best wishes to you!


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## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Thanks so much, Floridahutch. I'm thrilled things are going so well for you, and I think that I'm slowly getting more knowledgeable about this interesting new world. I have Patricia McConnell's book as well and it's helped things fall a bit more into place in my mind. I'll appreciate hearing about your successes and challenges.


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## floridahutch (Nov 1, 2008)

Hey Lucy,

I had no idea I was replying to an older post! I read 11/18 as 1/18--oops, need that prescription updated apparently. You're obviously long-finished with your training class by now so guess I'm doing Monday morning quarterbacking...

Curious if you finished with the original trainer, or changed?


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## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Not at all, floridahutch; I am still very much in training! We're still with the original trainer. He's gotten a little more communicative with me and more patient of my million questions. I think for this entire first year with my dog (who's 2 and a half years old) I'll be relying on trainers and classes to help me get the hang of things. Then I'll rely on them periodically for "tune ups" (more for myself than for the pooch!). 

A lot of people I know say that I'm spending way to much time reading, thinking, and training because this is a pet, for heaven's sake, but if I'm going to do this I want to do it well so that it's a great experience for everyone. In order for that to happen I've got to learn bunches more (and keep learning, I'm guessing!).

I'd still love to know about things you're encountering and how you're reacting to them and addressing them.


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## floridahutch (Nov 1, 2008)

Lucy,
My Duke is about 2 and a half, too! I totally agree with your approach. The folks who are saying you're spending too much time on it just don't understand...I get it. McConnell talks about this reaction from other people. There's NO WAY I could live with my rescue GSD if I wasn't doing exactly the same thing. It's my second full-time job.

I can definitely share problems I've encountered because there have been many! Me being a newbie GSD guardian is the first problem and starting with a challenging rescue dog is the second. Duke has never had any type of training, and he's a more dominant dog, so our basic underlying issue is always who's the boss. He came to me with a pattern of "throwing his weight around" to get what he wanted. My trainer says this is likely the only way he got attention in his past life. If I had to guess, this is likely the reason behind the now-healed fracture of his nose (having been hit in the snout with a bat or a pipe, the vet says.) 

He had a HUGE problem with "play-biting" which he used to demand attention. Unfortunately, the Dad in his last foster family frequently wrestled with him and the whole family excused this biting behavior--"he doesn't mean anything by it." NOT! The worst example was one day, as I sat in a chair on my deck, he jumped up and clamped his mouth down on the whole side of my face, jawline to cheekbone. He quickly released and didn't break the skin but, it hurt. This scared the snot out of me and really upset me for awhile but, as my trainer said, at least we know he has good bite inhibition! lol I can't even imagine trying to rehabilitate and socialize this dog without an ongoing relationship with our very wonderful trainer. She has also worked in rescue for many years, and fosters rescue animals, so she is a perfect match for us--recommended by my vet.

Initially, Duke was extremely anxious, easily over-aroused and boisterous most of the time. He frequently jumped up on me, tried to block my path where ever I walked through the house, constantly demanded attention (most notably trying to climb up on me when I would sit and watch TV), and had MAJOR pulling on the lead issues. He also had a history of extreme anxiety with vet visits and our first trip to my vet was a disaster. I was skiing across the gravel parking lot as he charged ahead with me hanging onto his leash for dear life, from the ground a couple of times. He was so difficult to control on a leash that my professional dog-walker refused to attempt walks with him after he had her down on the ground the second time. Twice, he ran me over as I was going out the front door and ran away up the street. He was also running over my little 20-lb. cocker at every turn. He was a real pain!

I often felt overwhelmed, inadequate and sometimes, impatient and angry. I felt COMPLETELY INADEQUATE the day of that first vet visit. I quickly learned the hard way that my anger or anxiety only compounded Duke's anxiety/level of arousal and lead to negative experiences. I read and re-read McConnell and Suzanne Clothier and that helped me keep my focus. I also kept talking to myself that it was my responsibility to remain calm, focused and patient. (Like all Moms surely do sometimes?) Support and encouragement from my trainer, vet and dog-walker also helped keep me on the right course. 

Training is such an integral part of our life now, I have to think where to start...when I realize how far we've come it makes me so happy!
Firstly I had to become a good pack leader. I use NILIF principles routinely. Sit for food, sit for a treat, sit for the leash, sit at the door before going out, sit and stay if I'm going out the door, sit to meet people, sit if we see another dog or ATV's across the lake when we're walking, sit for no reason whenever I say, sit, sit, sit... I now get a default sit for food, any treat and going out the back door into the yard. Now I'm using a required down-stay prior to receiving a treat (I treat a lot.)

For the attempted play-biting, I kept my hands high, out of reach, and body blocked a lot with my shoulders or hips and also consistently said "no bite" at the same time I pushed a suitable toy into his mouth. This requires having a suitable bite toy in easy reach at all times. We have 7 or 8 all over the house. I've been trained that we have to tell them what we DO want them to do, not just what we DON'T want. I rarely get a play bite now and only when he's overly aroused which I try to prevent. I body block any jumping attempts and say "no jump." I also use the negative punishments of going in another room and shutting the door for a few minutes, or stopping and turning my back to him if he's particularly persistent with the jumping. Now this usually happens only when I come home from work, or when I'm unlocking our back gate to go on our walk. I want to try a new technique I just read about where you come in the door, breeze by the dog without achknowledgement, throwing a treat to the dog at the same time.

We're still working on not pulling on the lead--our greatest challenge. My trainer suggested the collar options we've tried and I follow both my trainer and McConnell's advice during the walk. I threw away the choke chain I initially bought after I learned about the damage these can cause--it wasn't helping anyway, 

[Balance of post removed by Admin. Wisc.Tiger, Board rules state post must be under 1,000 words.]


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

What great training stories.

There's nothing like a serious effort at training with a good trainer to make you feel like you don't know nuttin...I've been amazed and abashed at how poorly I conveyed what I actually meant to convey. But it's such a fun and such a challenge, GSDs are so incredibly smart and forgiving, and they just love the attention they get with any kind of training. 

One time my trainer said to me -- Look, you be the dog and I'lll be you. This is what you're doing, see if YOU can follow your directions... Well, eeek. But I loved it, nonetheless, and learned so much from it. 

So it's all good. I bet your pup is completely thrilled to finally get the guidance and attention he needs, and it sounds as if you're having fun. 

Two other books I can suggest are Temple Grandin's "Animals in Translation" (anything by her is pretty amazing) and Suzanne Clothier's "Bones would rain from the sky". Clothier also has some wonderful free essays on dog behaviour at http://flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm

Have fun, and best of luck. Sounds like you're going to end up writing one of those "best dogs I ever lived with" threads....


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## floridahutch (Nov 1, 2008)

Hi Parsifal,

Thanks for your feedback. I so appreciate it. I've read Clothier's "Bones..." and truly loved it. I've seen Temple Grandin recommended by many authors and your suggestion prompted me to sit right down and order Animals in Translation. She must be a truly remarkable person and I'm looking forward to reading her work.

I've also read Clothier's training articles which I don't always enjoy. She sometimes leaves me feeling hopelessly inadequate and I descend into a spiral of self-doubt. I think partly it's her "take no prisoners" confrontational style (which she seems to revel in) but, sometimes after I've considered what she's saying, and discussed it with my trainer, I find I don't agree with her, e.g. a prong collar's OK to use but, a gentle leader's not? She certainly makes me THINK a lot! The best teachers always do...

Interestingly, my trainer once had a discussion with Clothier at a seminar, regarding her research work in breeding perfect service dog puppies. Like most dedicated rescue volunteers who are disheartened by the trend in breeding service dogs, rather than training rescued dogs, my trainer wondered what will happen to the "rejects" from these breeding programs? I understand Clothier was pretty testy. As a former research nurse, I can see value in the research but, personally I'll be sharing my life exclusively with rescue dogs for the rest of my days. Hopefully I'll be a smarter Mom for our next pack member!

Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. I'm very thankful to have found this wonderful community.


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## maddoxsb (Apr 17, 2006)

Floridiahutch, thanks so much for your candor; I know exactly what you're talking about with some of those stories! I keep telling myself (not incorrectly, I hope) that if you're a smart, compassionate person who is looking for the best training method for your dog, you can't screw up too, too badly, right?! Still, I feel out of my league sometimes. Not quite as much as I used to, but sometimes.

I hope you'll keep sharing your stories about Duke; I've gotten great information and peace of mind from them!


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## floridahutch (Nov 1, 2008)

You're welcome, Lucy. I keep telling myself the same thing!


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

I think that whenever you truly desire to be good at something and you read the top people in your field, you're going to feel inadequate. 

I'm a massage therapist, and a good one if I do say so myself, but there are times when I've attended a class or read an article by a top-flight person that I think I should go into carpet cleaning. 

Feeling humble is good -- means you're paying attention and learning. And it's very good when you read an article by a respected authority and can think, I don't agree and this is why. Means you're thinking.

And don't forget -- you don't hear about the million stories the respected authorities have about their screw-ups along the way. Usually, it's why they become good -- they screwed up and had to find a different way. They just have more time to devote to it than the rest of us. 

Dog stuff is a skill, and, as a friend of mine said, there's a minimum of 500 hours of focused practice just to get to "intermediate" on any endeavor. I've found this to be completely true.


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## floridahutch (Nov 1, 2008)

Hi Parsifal,

Thank you for your feedback, and PERSPECTIVE on the training challenge. I hadn't thought of it in this way but certainly need to! As a nurse of 30 years, I wouldn't expect a new grad to have the same skills or critical thinking I've developed so, why in the world do I expect to be able to accomplish what the training experts do? Duh. lol 500 hours will get here one of these days... 

I'm nearly finished reading Animals in Translation and have enjoyed every word. It's fascinating on many different levels and a nice break from training methods. I've found it quite comforting somehow. I know I'll re-read it over the years. I'm really intrigued by the animal science I've been learning and plan to do more reading in this area--maybe Dr. Panskepp that Temple refers to so often.

On the practical front, I decided to lay off the training theories for awhile, work on our relationship and improve on what we already know how to do. I've also changed to a job with normal hours and I think it's helpful for both me and the dogs. Duke seems to be more secure with the predictable schedule of my comings and goings. He's no longer anxious when I leave for work in the morning (just looks up from his kong or treats as I go out the door) and he's a bit less aroused and hyper when I come home. We still need work on that.

We've been going for a "field trip" in the car on weekends and I've found this to be an essential activity for us. He absolutely LOVES to go in the car and these trips seem to really strengthen our bond. (Figure out what they love, right?) I'm learning to pay closer attention to our level of connection and I try new challenges when I sense he's responsive enough to be successful. (Just like Clothier says...maybe I'm "getting" it. lol) We recently did our first visit to a big dog park and he really did well. He's a bit dog-shy but, not anxious enough that he's aggressive. He used calming behaviors appropriately when approached by more aggressive dogs and simply avoided the overly enthusiastic ones. Duke went into typical guarding mode, and we had to walk and check the entire perimeter of the multi-acre park but, he did break long enough for a few trips into the pond of course. He also LOVES the water. When he'd had enough and was ready to go, he found his way to the exit gate, turned and looked at me with the "OK, Mom, I'm ready to go" look. He's such a great dog. 

When we go in the car we also stop at the vet's--to just walk around the grounds or go into the lobby and use their walk-on scale (up to 90 lbs!) This has reduced his former anxiety tremendously. The girls at the vet's could hardly believe how well behaved he was the other day as he calmly walked in, got up on the scale and sat quietly--huge difference from our first visit when I was skiing across the gravel behind him! It was one of those close connection/great success days...love those. We also did some city-walking along a busy street with lots of traffic that day

I still use the gentle leader collar for any "town" visits/walking but I'm starting work on weaning to the martingale collar for our lake walks at home. So far we have uneven progress with this--it's one good day, one bad day. I've decided to try only on the weekends for now, when we've had more time together and have that good connection going. He's more anxious and aroused for our after work weekday walks so these aren't good opportunities for success. I bought a Sporn harness which works pretty well but, by the time I get it on and adjust it, he's overly aroused and hyper so I'm not using it very much.

Do you also do massage on your dogs? I recently ran across an article about massage reducing arousal in dogs. What do you think about this? I'd love to know your thoughts on the subject. Thanks again for your feedback and encouragement.


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

Jan, I'm not a dog massage therapist, but I've found my girl gets annoyed by any kind of continuous massage. What she does like is Reiki and TTouch (http://www.ttouch.com/ and you can get books on it at Barnes and Noble or Amazon ) -- I've found even the cats like this, and it does make them very relaxed.


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

BTW, I think it's very smart of you to be spending time just hanging with your pup.

It's so easy to always have an agenda -- my dog must do this, that, and the other, and be a certain way. 

But the real pleasure (for me -- I don't do competitive stuff) has been in just spending time doing what I like (walking in the hills) with my girl. I've learned so much about her that way, and she about me. 

It's helped a lot when we do formal training (which I also really enjoy); we're both much better at picking up each other's cues. And I think it's reinforced and rewarded her for being what I want most -- a calm and enjoyable companion who lets me go safely where I want to go, and who gives me a window onto an entirely different world. It's so amazing to see the world through the eyes of a totally different species. What a gift.


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