# Black Listed To Buy?



## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

So about a month ago i decided I wanted a Working line Puppy, I did the logical thing and read a bit on the forums and mass emailed different recommended breeders. All was going well everyone was super friendly and very willing to help out. I started my search with DDR dogs only untill i realized thats not what i was looking for in terms of aesthetics and drive. After further inquires i narrowed it down to the mix of DDr/Czech as it provided what I think I'm looking for and the general consensus on here was that its the best of both worlds. 

Fast forward a little bit and i shrug a breeder the wrong way and goes absolutely 360 emails all her breeder colleagues asks them if i inquired to them about pups. These breeders acknowledged that i have and somehow informs them that we had a falling out and that i should not be trusted or what have you long story short all breeders stop responding. 

i do admit i was looking for long coat and pretty adamant on looking for one with a certain set of aesthetics. I figure if the dog comes from good lineages, temp and drive are all going to be of high prestige therefore i am allowed to have a certain set of aesthtic choices? I mean its 15 year investment of time an money might as well get what you want correct? But guess she took it the wrong way.

Anyone want to chime on how i could avoided this fiasco? and if i was in the wrong for being like most a uninformed consumer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't know why a breeder would be mad just because you were talking to other breeders unless you weren't honest about it.

As far as the physical characteristics, I dont' think that should have caused an issue either if the breeder had those in their lines and you were willing to wait.

So, is there more to this story?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I agree with you you should get what you want in a dog, physically and mentally. Coateds are harder to come by in the WL world. Really your best bet is to get first pick of a repeat breeding that has thrown Coateds before for the highest chance of getting one.

But what if the single coated in the breeding is low drive? I think it is your every right to want to look elsewhere. But I've yet to know a breeder that will refund a deposit if you move from the litter. Perhaps they'll move your deposit to another litter.

No I don't think you wanting a coated dog is wrong. Plenty of WL dogs produce them. Berlin has several coated full siblings. But maybe it's the way you asked (demanded?) For it? You can't guarantee a black sable coated female with high drive, for example. That's just going to be hard to find. Berlin's litter had a black sable coated female. The next breeding had a red sable coated male. 

I did not want a black or bicolor dog, I've had my heart set on a sable for YEARS and I was paying good money. I would of been willing to walk away from the litter I was on hold for if that was all that was available. And I probably would of lost my deposit. Actually, I'm 99% certain berlins breeder would of moved my deposit. But I can't guarantee that. And you can't count on that.

Maybe there's another reason the breeder didn't think you were a good fit? I know several breeders that have numerous ddr/Czech breedings and I can't imagine they would do something like that just because you stated you wanted a coated dog.

All you can do is be honest to the breeder, 

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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Do you know exactly what you did to rub her the wrong way? Do you have any clues from her emails about why she might have been upset? Also, how did you know she emailed all her colleagues? Did they say she told them not to work with you, or did she tell you, or...?

Not questioning the veracity of your story at all, I'm just trying to figure out what happened. 

I think it is possible that you got pegged as a "certain sort" of person by seeming to prioritize aesthetics over drives and temperament. I could see how maybe a working line breeder might infer from that that you don't really know what you want in terms of the latter and may not know what you're getting into. But that's just pure speculation. 

I guess my final thought is if you really want a long coat, why would you look at breeders who may not have any?


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

In the middle of my search like i said I did switch from full ddr to a czech mix.
So when she went to ask what i asked them what i was looking for the initial breeders had mentioned DDr only.This I'm sure made it appear of myself being dishonest on what i was looking for( I'm subject to change my preference as i gather info correct?)THe breeder i had initially contacted helped me figure out i wasn't a fan of the blocky heads and probably wouldn't be a good fit for me. I decided i wanted a czech mix and stated it in an email however the same breeder thought i still wanted DDR, therefore it seems liked she just wanted to get the sale or what have you, least on my end through email.
I mentioned this to the breeder who got mad at me and i think thats what added to the disagreement, apparently she did not like that I described that I was being "pushed" to get a certain dog and being that they are great friends caused. Long story short she felt i had described her colleagues in a negative light.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

PM me the breeder? Wouldn't be surprised if its someone I'm thinking of considering you're in Chicago and they do DDR dogs.

Some people are just like that...I don't think anyone has a broad enough reach to "black list" you so I wouldn't worry about that. I'm sure you can find a dog. I don't know of any DDR/Czech dogs that I would recommend, but I can give you a few good breeders to check out. I'm always confused as to why people focus on those large categories...someone that doesn't have experience with dogs, won't even notice the difference, and unfortunately, there is no guarantee your dog will meet those broad descriptors that have been marketed over the internet. Most people will tell you that there isn't a DDR dog anymore. The people that use DDR to market are pretty much saying...dark sable, big head. Doesn't say anything about working ability or temperament.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

If you have your communications in emails, and you're truly being mishandled by the angry breeder, then just try the other breeders and offer to share your emails if they are hesitant because of the grumpy breeder?


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

One of her other colleagues absolutely refused to breed for coat because it was a fault. It was through email mind you, so i kind of got the vibe that i offended by asking for coat. This was also mentioned to lets call her Breeder "A"(original dispute) 

She told me in an email she reached out to all her colleagues and asked them about me and received different feedback. And i would say she would have every time since they where all contacted in succession of my search as my preferences changed what i was looking for did as well. This lead her to say i cannot be trusted and could not sell me a dog. SHe said she doesn't tell her colleagues not to sell dogs to anyone, but that she would refuse to sell me one. Shortly there after all other emails from the breeders stopped from them to me. Well she might not have told them not to sell, but something happened because no one responds to my emails or inquires at this point in time.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Fuzon said:


> I mentioned this to the breeder who got mad at me and i think thats what added to the disagreement, apparently she did not like that I described that I was being "pushed" to get a certain dog and being that they are great friends caused. Long story short she felt i had described her colleagues in a negative light.


Are you doing most of your research online? Using the "general description" that is usually spread on the internet about this line or that line? That could be a huge problem...

Don't take offense to this...but you have no idea what you're talking about. You're reading things, not seeing them. You think you know, but you probably don't. If I showed you two dogs, just their temperaments, would you be able to tell me what "line" they are? Unlikely. I can't even do that. I can tell somewhat based on looks, but even that can get sketchy.

So when you start spewing "internet research" to people that actually work their dogs and have been doing this for years...its almost comical. And some people will get angry. If this breeder has spent time emailing you back and forth, thinking you're a customer, now you tell them you read some article and changed your mind...I can see how they could get mad.


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Are you doing most of your research online? Using the "general description" that is usually spread on the internet about this line or that line? That could be a huge problem...
> 
> Don't take offense to this...but you have no idea what you're talking about. You're reading things, not seeing them. You think you know, but you probably don't. If I showed you two dogs, just their temperaments, would you be able to tell me what "line" they are? Unlikely. I can't even do that. I can tell somewhat based on looks, but even that can get sketchy.
> 
> So when you start spewing "internet research" to people that actually work their dogs and have been doing this for years...its almost comical. And some people will get angry. If this breeder has spent time emailing you back and forth, thinking you're a customer, now you tell them you read some article and changed your mind...I can see how they could get mad.


That is probably a major factor, i really was clueless when it came to the generalization of the lines. A lot of that is still seen on the forums some people will make a generalization about DDr or Czech OR west german and you will have people contradict that based of their own experience. I'm a first time GSD buyer so I can admit i have had no experience with any of the lines prior to my search and what i have read.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Where have you been looking? I'm in Milwaukee, and most of the decent breeders are right on the WI/IL border if you're talking in our area.

I know a breeder with a great long-hair WGWL bitch. But she actively tries to avoid breeding to males that might carry the long hair gene. It's really less about the current puppies, and more about the future of the breeding program. Long hair is a fault and many people (especially those planning on breeding) don't want them, so you're really eliminating a lot of buyers. Breeders want their dogs going to homes where they will be worked, trialed, shown...those types of homes are the ones that give the breeder a bigger name and good marketing.

PM me if you have any questions, I can recommend some people in the area.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ok...let's move past the why. Doesn't matter now.

What exactly are your plans for this puppy? Since you don't know anything about the lines, much like me, I would suggest you find clubs and go watch the dogs. My puppy is WG/Czech/Dutch/EG. I think many dogs are now a mix of the lines so to ask for one specific line is probably not realistic.


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

Im looking to be able to at the most get to IPO 1. i got a chance to see bite work up close and its intense! Looking for a dog that can be around lots of people and be willing to learn and play and one that i shouldn't have a problem training towards ipo1. Im definitely a novice as i have stated and from what i read too high a drive might be a problem? I've read a lot about "off switches" so if he can differentiate home and training that would be ideal.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fuzon said:


> Im looking to be able to at the most get to IPO 1. i got a chance to see bite work up close and its intense! Looking for a dog that can be around lots of people and be willing to learn and play and one that i shouldn't have a problem training towards ipo1. Im definitely a novice as i have stated and from what i read too high a drive might be a problem? I've read a lot about "off switches" so if he can differentiate home and training that would be ideal.


Then do what I did. Don't worry about lines and coat. Go to the clubs and trials. Watch the dogs, ask questions. If you listen to people, you can't help but learn  Then find the dogs you like and contact those breeders.

I wanted a black. I'm very partial to black animals. but the best choice for me was a sable and I just love everything about him.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Instead of focusing so much on lines why don't you simply talk to the breeders, tell them what you would like and your lack of experience. That's what I did. Granted I did end up with a ddr/Czech mix. I as a breeder would be hesitant too if someone with no experience kept changing their mind on what they wanted because of what they read online instead of talking to me and other experienced breeders. Good breeders know their dogs, what they produce, what owners can handle

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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> the best choice for me was a sable and I just love everything about him.


That's most certainly because sables(especially black sables) are the bestest.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If you think you want to do IPO, go to some clubs, most of the ones I know of in your area have breeders in teh club...get a puppy off someone with a vested interest in you being successful with your puppy.

Coat and color are going to be at the bottom of the priority list if you want to get a working prospect and need guidance....

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Anubis_Star said:


> ....I as a breeder would be hesitant too if someone with no experience kept changing their mind on what they wanted because of what they read online instead of talking to me and other experienced breeders. Good breeders know their dogs, what they produce, what owners can handle
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why? As a breeder we should be wanting to do more than just sell puppies. We should be educating the buyers. Yes, having someone who keeps changing their mind can be frustrating, but many of those people can be helped and guided. I have helped steer a number of people to the right litters for them. It took a lot of my time, but if the buyer is happy that is what should matter. It is good not only for that buyer and puppy, but also for the breed.


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> If you think you want to do IPO, go to some clubs, most of the ones I know of in your area have breeders in teh club...get a puppy off someone with a vested interest in you being successful with your puppy.
> 
> Coat and color are going to be at the bottom of the priority list if you want to get a working prospect and need guidance....
> 
> Lee


Agree with Lee...in the beginning you think coat/color are important, once you have the dog, it wouldn't matter and it's better to have everything else correct. The dog will be beautiful regardless.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Agree on the education. That is paramount and what people should be doing.

We do the same for schutzhund. And in regards to puppies, as well as timing of puppies: how close in age, no two puppies at same time (schutzhund or other), etc.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Here's my hit on what happened with the OP -- the breeders clued in that you had been talking to a bunch of them - not in person but on the internet - repeatedly -- as you worked through what you were looking for. Collectively, you became a "lookie lou" and they said "enough of this guy using my time."

I'd go with find a breeder whose dogs seem right to you, put your money down for a dog and take what is sold to you. If you've chosen the right breeder, that person will choose the right pup for you. It may not be a long hair, it may not be black and tan/red, it might even been a bit loopy to start with.

I like the idea of sending you to clubs to learn about different dogs and different kennels.


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

middleofnowhere said:


> Here's my hit on what happened with the OP -- the breeders clued in that you had been talking to a bunch of them - not in person but on the internet - repeatedly -- as you worked through what you were looking for. Collectively, you became a "lookie lou" and they said "enough of this guy using my time."


It sounds like that's exactly what happened. Many breeders will happily educate buyers and help them find the right dog, but in the end it's still a business transaction, and some customers are not worth their time. Most companies aren't going to want to deal with a customer who has bizarrely specific and constantly changing demands and starts talking dissing their industry friends behind their back.


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm assuming that's what happened on the other end, I guess being honest and stating I've been looking around was not a good idea. I got carried away of them being very friendly and helpful and just wanting to help I forgot to treat them As a business and a purchasing decision. 

I'm on the right page now thanks to some people who have chimed in and will be heading out to a sch club this weekend where I hope to get more guidance and real world experience. 

Just stinks this disagreement had to happen, but I guess you love and you learn


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

just move on, lesson learned.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

In the world of dogs it seems like no matter what you do you are going to offend someone.........

Do what is right for you, be honest, and just go with it. I've found that normally works best!!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Fuzon...

Just make the assumption most breeders are a bit "passionate" about their product and methodologies...because believe me..they ALL are absolutely correct...in their own minds.....I hate to make sweeping generalizations but my last quest to find a GSD pup was the most agonizing experience as a consumer...my guess the reason so many breeders are "odd" about the quirks they have is...they really don't grasp the concept of sales in general...they should hire a salesperson and stick to the breeding.

The most ridiculous encounter I had while looking for my current gal was this one breeder's survey questions..when she asked who I had previously purchased from...I told her the kennel's name...she proceeded to go off on what a horrible lady the breeder was...like a fricking soap opera..I was polite and listened to her rant and when she was done...I simply asked her "so she has bad dogs?"....silence....and then a "well that's not the issue". I about laughed in her face..what a loon. Needless, to say I didn't bother pursuing her product...I figured the baggage would be too much ever getting a pup from her.

I have generally let breeders lead me in a direction and simply patronize them when they get to the ridiculous crap..."oh, you have to give the dog this exact brand of food and vitamins....etc"..I just agree and say "consider it done"...

If you want a coat and a particular variety of a GSD, let it be known to the breeder and if that should become a conflict of sorts with the breeder than just BS them, if you believe they have the product you want. There is nothing wrong with wanting a pup which will hopefully have the aesthetics you desire....seems odd any breeder would get bent out of shape over that...

Anyway, to all the breeders who do not remotely fit my aforementioned generalizations....good for you and I apologize for citing the looney tune breeders as the norm.

SuperG


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

So, is it a bad thing to be talking to many different breeders? I thought the whole point was to be thorough in researching them, and how can you do that without talking to them? What is an appropriate level of contact and timeline that shows you are serious without "wasting their time?"

I feel like I couldn't approach a breeder about a deposit without seeing their breeding dogs in person, and I don't see how you can do that without a lot of contact beforehand. Is there a certain standard of etiquette for talking to breeders that prospective puppy buyers should know about?


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Kaimeju said:


> So, is it a bad thing to be talking to many different breeders? I thought the whole point was to be thorough in researching them, and how can you do that without talking to them? What is an appropriate level of contact and timeline that shows you are serious without "wasting their time?"
> 
> I feel like I couldn't approach a breeder about a deposit without seeing their breeding dogs in person, and I don't see how you can do that without a lot of contact beforehand. Is there a certain standard of etiquette for talking to breeders that prospective puppy buyers should know about?Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am wondering that too.  I always thought it was best to contact as many as you can to suss out which breeders and their dogs/lines would best suite your requirements. I am also wondering if it is common place for breeders to be secretive? I have asked two breeders on "who are the parents they were planning to use" and they only told me who one parent was. I asked politely again who are the parents, thinking that they must have forgot to include the other, but one replied "sorry, I don't let my plans out until the actual breeding". They also seem to evade answering other questions like price, what kind of registration and what is involved in these puppy temperament tests . . . I don't understand why they are not straight forward with these things. When we sell our chooks or geese we say what the price is, who are the parents, and where we have got or bred the parents from. I just don't quite understand it.  It's like a whole new set of rules and behaviour that needs to be learnt! :crazy:


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Gosh! I am glad I have never met a breeder like those you all speak of. I am very honest with prospective puppy buyers. Maybe too honest. Giving the good and the bad. Probably while I have my puppies for too long. Have not made any money on breeding. I must be doing it all wrong. I cant sleep at night thinking I am not socializing them enough, training them enough, not feeding them right. Why do I put myself through this torture? 

May I recommend getting a trained adult. If you have never done schutzhund before, it can be a great way to learn from a trained dog. After you have been in the know for a bit, you will have a better idea of the traits you are looking for in your next prospect. And then you can find a breeder that has the same goals. Producing what you are looking for. 

In defense of the breeder, not saying this is the case. Well not this particular breeder then. Some breeders get several inquiries a day and it probably gets frustrating to have someone keep changing directions after having spent some time communicating back and fourth. This forum has it happen quite frequently too. Same questions every other day, that has been answered in previous threads, but every one seems to think their situation is different. Members on here get frustrated as well.


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## Glacier (Feb 25, 2009)

My pup is a coat and happends to be a mix of DDR/Czech lines. It's funny because I chose my breeder based on her general helpfulness, willingness to share information, and her integrity. I trusted her and she matched me with the perfect pup. Baccus is from a repeat litter that has produced a coat previously, so I knew it was a possibility that we could end up with a coated pup even though it wasn't something we particularly sought. If you're really set on physical aesthetics accept that you will be waiting for a while and be patient , the right pup will eventually pop up.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

dawnandjr said:


> Gosh! I am glad I have never met a breeder like those you all speak of. I am very honest with prospective puppy buyers. Maybe too honest. Giving the good and the bad. Probably while I have my puppies for too long. Have not made any money on breeding. I must be doing it all wrong. I cant sleep at night thinking I am not socializing them enough, training them enough, not feeding them right. Why do I put myself through this torture?


I really like honesty. :thumbup: I also like it when they answer my questions without having to repeat myself numerous times. I try to be as honest as I can to breeders so they can get an idea on what I want. When breeders don't mention to me what are the bad points of their dogs then perhaps they are not being entirely honest. Especially when they yada on about how wonderful their dogs are and everyone else's are not. No dog or animal is perfect. It would be awesome if they were, however.


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## jrennie15 (May 14, 2014)

Kaimeju said:


> So, is it a bad thing to be talking to many different breeders? I thought the whole point was to be thorough in researching them, and how can you do that without talking to them? What is an appropriate level of contact and timeline that shows you are serious without "wasting their time?"
> 
> I feel like I couldn't approach a breeder about a deposit without seeing their breeding dogs in person, and I don't see how you can do that without a lot of contact beforehand. Is there a certain standard of etiquette for talking to breeders that prospective puppy buyers should know about?
> 
> ...


I am also in the process of looking for a pup, and I have spoken to several breeders as well. I don't think there is anything wrong with talking to multiple breeders. You have to find the one that you are comfortable with. I thought I was looking for a specific type of GSD, turns out I didn't really know what I was looking for until speaking with multiple breeders.

Good luck in your search!


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## SentinelHarts (May 7, 2011)

I will chime in here- I am the supposed blacklister. There is ALWAYS more to the story than what the original poster writes. I did get a call from this young man- I listened to his desires and I called the people he said he had contacted. Things did not match up. We had some discussions about what didn't seem right and then I made the decision to decline to sell to this person. He was very persistent and I stuck to my guns... then he accused me of telling other breeders not to sell to him... HA! like I have control of all the East German Breeders in this country- ANYONE who wants copies of the emails between me and this guy is free to email me- I will gladly share.


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## SentinelHarts (May 7, 2011)

For what it is worth, maybe the OP should post who he has contacted and let them chime in and defend themselves... Long time breeders who have the ability and right to decline to sell to anyone... Just as a buyer should do their homework, sellers should also. They have to back their dogs- if they do not feel comfortable with the buyer (insert reason here____________ ie honesty, indecisiveness, ability, capability etc) Then they SHOULD decline the sale. That is what a responsible breeder does (not just sell to any person with the cash).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That is not the purpose of this board. A generalized discussion is allowed, but no disputes between buyers and breeders. 

Sorry,

ADMIN


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