# Frustrated over submissive urination



## tony123 (Mar 1, 2009)

Dharma is now 8 months, and for the last month or two she has been submissively urinating. In the last few weeks, it is really happening to the point that I can't be around her. 

I have read all the info I could here on the forum and am trying really hard, but it is a tough thing for an owner to handle. We suddenly have pee all over the floors, porch, bed, couch, ....... Remaining calm is getting harder and harder. I am guilty now of raising my voice to her a few times. But this went on for well over a month that I stayed absolutely by the book calm. I only have so much control.

It's encouraging to hear that she will likely outgrow it. Until then, we are strongly considering her being an outside kennel dog. The reason we have her is for her to be a participating family member, and being out in the kennel seems defeating.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Is she spayed? Have you had her checked to make sure it isn't a medical issue?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Definitely check for a UTI. Try to get the first pee of the morning-or call your vet to see if they have a preference on collection method. 

I do not recommend the way we did it for Bella-I took her in at 7-just got up and went-the tech and I collected a full bowl of urine-I told Bella (who is nervous about getting a bowl under her while she potties) good girl-she jumped up all happy, hit the bowl and threw pee all over the tech, me, and her!














LUCKILY (?) there was enough in the bowl for the collection. She had a UTI. Her main symptom-POOPING in the house. Who'd have thought of that! (I did







behold the power of google)

Sometimes too, check out the senior section for perspective. I find that when puppies or younger dogs are doing jaw clenchingly irritating things, if you go there, you will say, oh wow...maybe someday...I will look back and think of that puppy in a much different way...
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1124080#Post1124080


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I would do a medical check too. A pup that urinate submissively since he arrives home, but still does at 8 months is normal, even at a year old is normal for some. But a dog that starts urinating at 7 months and gets worst and worst is not normal.

If the case were a bladder infection, just by example, she urinates, she perceives your disappointment and submits, and it spiral up until she can't see you without being scared and pee, now she have no control at all over pee and she knows you'll be mad at her.

Or maybe it is not exactly submissive urinating, but a real problem of anxiety, in which case there are treatments that can help, both of behavioural modification and meds. But if you kennel her now hopping the problem will go on its own, you will only get worst results and aggravate the problem.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntai But a dog that starts urinating at 7 months and gets worst and worst is not normal.



It can be quite normal for it to appear in the 6-8 month range when the dog enters adolescence, and then go away again. Especially in females and when approaching their first heat cycle and getting a little more emotional/hormonal.

To the OP:

Checking for a UTI is always a good idea. Beyond that, all you can do is manage it as best as possible and make sure to control your actions and reactions in order to prevent making it worse.

What sort of classes, if any, are you doing with your pup? Spending time together training really can help with this as working with you, learning to communicate better with you, and learning what sort of behaviors really make you happy and bring reward can go along way in making a pup more confident and relaxed in the relationship with the owner, and thus not feel the need to go overboard with the submissive urination.


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## Lestra08 (Jun 22, 2009)

I am having the same problem with my new pup. We got her on Father's Day, she was 10 weeks old. She started doing it when I scolded her for going potty in the house. I didn't yell at her or anything like that, just used a scolding tone of voice. I have house broken other dogs before, 2 were GSD, and never had a problem with them doing the submissive urinating. I sure hope our pup will stop doing it. She does it if she the least bit scared like when I put her in the car. She won't get in the car on her own, I have to pick her up and put her in it. 

Tracy K


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## tony123 (Mar 1, 2009)

Thanks to everyone for the information and encouragement.

I have not checked for UTI. I doubt that's it though, as it happens 100% of the time as a reaction to our tone of voice or our actions. It's not like it's an uncontrollable thing that happens randomly. But we will try to get that checked anyway.

She was spayed just two weeks ago at the age of 7.5 months. Maybe it's harmonal? Maybe her body was getting in gear for her first cycle? Maybe the spaying has her all confused (although, it was happening well before the surgery)?

She is an otherwise well adjusted and socialized dog. Anxiety doesn't seem to play into her character at all.

I have maybe picked up on a pattern. We have the outdoor kennel that I like to give her a few hours a day outside during nice weather. Typically she goes out there twice or three times a day for an hour or two each time. When I come to let her out of the kennel it almost ALWAYS happens. Is she maybe percieving the kennel as punishment? We've never treated it that way. Or maybe her feelings are hurt? From the moment we got her (4mo) we could tell that she was highly, shall we say, emotional. Constantly studying us for our attitude.

I'm trying very hard to help her through this, but it is a real tough one. One of the issues this creates is that we can not discipline her (not even change your tone of voice) unless you want pee everywhere. Its like she can get away with murder (and she tries) and we can't stop her. For instance, she jumps up on a bed and you can't get her down unless you want your bed peed on. I try calling her in a happy voice, but even that will trigger it. It's like she knows the things that might get us upset and at that point no matter our tone it will happen.

We pray that this is an adolescense issue that she will grow out of.

Again, thanks.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Spaying can cause incontinence - sometimes temporary, sometimes not. Isounds like the submissive urination started after the spay, but would you say it's gotten any worse since then?
I would get her checked by the vet, and if you need to, pick up some dog doggy diapers! 
Hopefully this is only a phase so you NEED to not react negatively or it may become a long term problem!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Unless she's peeing in her sleep etc. it doesn't sound like spay incontinence to me - more behavioral. Although I'm always in favor of ruling out a UTI because that could be exacerbating the problem, even if it's primarily behavioral. 

Submissive urination really is a pain because it's not really a housebreaking problem and requires a lot of different strategies - and, like you say, makes it hard to control the dog when you're constantly trying to prevent a flood. Somewhere I saw a good protocol for working on it... I'll see if I can track that down and if so will post the link. 

I like Chris's idea of doing more obedience and other activities. To some extent stuff like this can become a conditioned behavioral response to certain stimuli (think Pavlov's drooling dogs) so sometimes what you need to do is change the context and develop alternative responses. So if she does it when it's time to go to the pen can you break that whole behavior sequence down in pieces and then change it up? Like if she always pees when you grab her collar to walk her out there, then can you practice (in the backyard!) grabbing her collar, giving her a treat, and then letting her go. Or having her sit, treat, collar grab, treat, let go. Backyard trip, fun with tug toy, trip to the pen, fun with owner and tug toy in the pen, back out of the pen again etc.


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## tony123 (Mar 1, 2009)

It was happening at a "problem" level prior to the spaying. I'm thinking that it has increased since, but not so sure. Not drastically anyhow.

She's not peeing in her sleep or when doing certain other activities she's fine. I should rule out UTI, and will try to fit it in a busy schedule.

I'm fairly confident it is behavioral. I have been paying attention to the individual steps that lead to the problem. Probably 60% of the time it happens in association with me coming to get her out of the pen and come back indoors. I am now going out, opening the pen while not even looking at her and then I go about my business with her just following me inside. Once inside I don't acknowledge her for the first few minutes until the moment has passed. This process has seemed to improve things.

I'm also noticing the subtle changes in her ear movement that are a cue. If I see these, I immediately don't even look at her and change what I'm doing. This, also, seems to help.

Several times a week we do a short training session in the yard with each other, and she likes it. We were going to the dog park somewhat regularly, and she comes on outings to my office, to the park, to the lake with the family, etc. She's very well behaved and I can do all of the above with no leash if I wanted to. She listens to my voice commands in a way that I'm very proud of.

Her downfall (besides submissive peeing) is that she is dog aggressive. Can't seem to break her of it. Maybe that's my opportunity to go to a trainer? 

Do a search for "Dharma" in the photos section and you'll find several posts that show what a sweet girl she is.


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## tony123 (Mar 1, 2009)

Well, its been about two weeks, and things (at least temporarily) have improved. I'm being very deliberate about the way she's handled, and it seems to be working. It's a learning curve for dog and owner.


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