# Is this correct?



## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Please show me some comments about this chart:










Thanks!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

The only high lines would be the black and red. The others would all be working lines which can be broken down into subsets like East German/DDR/Czech (former Eastern Bloc nations) and West German Working.


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

I see. Thank you Amaruq!



> Originally Posted By: AmaruqThe only high lines would be the black and red. The others would all be working lines which can be broken down into subsets like East German/DDR/Czech (former Eastern Bloc nations) and West German Working.


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## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

This is what is confusing to me. I am trying to locate the difference between german lines and american lines.


Ur, I admire and respect all the research you have been doing. Just thought I would touch on it as I see you looking at alot of stuff I am still so confused with and while you are seeking help, you need to know you are also helping others. Thanks so much!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

None of the dogs pictured above are American line, they are all European.


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Thank you for the compliment, Dorian.








I'm still learning and sometimes feel confused too. 
Here shows the major difference between American lines and German lines:










I cannot remember where the original comparison image came from, so I drew this my own. Externally german lines can be distinguished by their banana like back. Americans have a straight slope back. But, exceptions do exist, I saw many German working line shepherds (ok, their photos) don't have banana back. 

I hope I can have a list of different shepherds, but this one is definitely a good reference:









http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html




> Originally Posted By: DorianThis is what is confusing to me. I am trying to locate the difference between german lines and american lines.
> 
> 
> Ur, I admire and respect all the research you have been doing. Just thought I would touch on it as I see you looking at alot of stuff I am still so confused with and while you are seeking help, you need to know you are also helping others. Thanks so much!


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

I cannot edit my original post. I just drew a list. Thank you, Amaruq, for all your input on this list.




















> Originally Posted By: AmaruqNone of the dogs pictured above are American line, they are all European.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Essentially, yes to the chart. Not all German Show lines have the banana back.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

And not all American show lines have as much slope in the topline as the dog used to illistrate it.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I'm not a show person but isn't the American Line stacked to really exagerate the slope? Even I can see where the back leg is much further out.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Betty101I'm not a show person but isn't the American Line stacked to really exagerate the slope? Even I can see where the back leg is much further out.


While showdog can be extended to exaggerate the slope in the back, there really is a structural difference. I believe if you measured the bone in the dogs thigh, from the hip to the knee, you can see in those two photos the American dogs bone is much longer allowing the greater extension.

So what you are looking at isn't just that the back looks more sloped, it's that structurally their legs are built differently allowing for the greater slope in extension....


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The American show lines appear to me to be longer bodied, higher neck - head set and longer more angulated croup - more angulation to pasterns...thus less compact and substantial in appearance...they come in all colors - all shades of black and tan, bi colors, blankets - sables and some blacks as well.

the European show lines are 99% black and red (tan) - a few dogs are sables....the European working lines - which criss cross alot between Dutch, Czech, Belgian, Germany, Denmark etc....come in all colors - black, bi, blanket, saddle black and tans, sables (regular gray, light, dark, and black sables)

Lee


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Betty101I'm not a show person but isn't the American Line stacked to really exagerate the slope? Even I can see where the back leg is much further out.


Actually no. If you look at the pics, the dog is actually stacked almost the same as the WG line dog. (The left hind on the AM dog could be brough a tiny bit forward to make a straight "up and down" line on the hock.) But even that wouldn't make and real difference.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I love your last char Ur, but for Northamericans... shouldn't the<u> King Shepherd</u> and the <u>Shiloh Shepherd</u> be listed as new wanna be breeds instead of lines of the Northamerican dogs?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

There is a large debate over Kings and Shiloh's as to if they are pure bred or not. There is also the category that spans all types which are the ones bred by the uninformed that breed whatever two dogs are available as long as they have papers also known as the BYB.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I wasn't aware there was debate over Kings and Shiloh's being purebred? All the info I've read about them and the few fanciers of each I've met are pretty open about the fact that breeds other than the GSD were crossed in to increase size.


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes, you're right! I'll change my chart later.








Er...I have one more question, does Northamericans have their own working line shepherds? Or ALL working lines are belonging to European?



> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiI love your last char Ur, but for Northamericans... shouldn't the<u> King Shepherd</u> and the <u>Shiloh Shepherd</u> be listed as new wanna be breeds instead of lines of the Northamerican dogs?


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi Lee, I thought American show lines are 99% black and red/tan as well.... Thanks for your correction!



> Originally Posted By: WolfstraumThe American show lines appear to me to be longer bodied, higher neck - head set and longer more angulated croup - more angulation to pasterns...thus less compact and substantial in appearance...they come in all colors - all shades of black and tan, bi colors, blankets - sables and some blacks as well.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

American Show lines really stress the rear angulation over all other parts of the dog. They look @ side gait much more than whether a dog is clean coming and going in the rear. The most common way to get that was to lengthen the bone from the knee to the hock in the rear leg. The stack used in the US is intended to highlight that. The "correct" American show dog will have a short hock that sets at a 90 degree angle to the ground, and the stifle joint also gives a 90 degree angle. HOWEVER what most folks didn't plan for was that extending at that point would create a structural weakness that needed VERY strong ligaments and well conditioned muscle to work without what's been called the "windmill" effect with hocks flipping back and forth when viewed from the rear rather than providing the best drive. Picture a bridge... the longer the bridge the more support is needed to keep it from moving with the wind.








An attempt to lengthen the body again met with errors as the easiest place to extend it was to lengthen the loin... which tends to lead to weakness in the back.. If the length is gained in the rib cage instead you won't get the weakness. 

Sel. Ch. Ravenhaus Noah Seems to do this quite nicely:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/405318.html

as does his son Ch. Holiday's Kheigh Deigh

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/438271.html

Ch. Rohan's Reaction was my personal favorite of this type.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/508197.html

Color wise a Majority of American show lines are black/tan or black/red. There remains a minority of Sable and Blacks, with an occasional Bi showing up. But by in large If it's not Black and red/tan the judges don't seem to see it unless it's spectacular. Maybe not 99% worth, but more like 90%. The failure to see the ENTIRE dog and focus on the REAR angles only creates a myriad of problems though with front shoulders being too straight, lack of male heads, bad feet, temperament, and working ability.


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi Windwalker18, thank you for the detailed explanations. Also you cleared my confusion about American show line colors.


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Here is the update.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Here you have more information for your chart
http://dogbreeds.bulldoginformation.com/shepherd-dogs-wolfdogs-wolf-dog-hybrids.html


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: UrHi Lee, I thought American show lines are 99% black and red/tan as well.... Thanks for your correction!


so by now you know that a black and red dog is genetically the same as a black and tan. same gene, but different shades of tan.

german showlines are 99% black and red. where american showlines are 90% black and tan.

maybe thats where your confusion was happening.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI wasn't aware there was debate over Kings and Shiloh's being purebred? All the info I've read about them and the few fanciers of each I've met are pretty open about the fact that breeds other than the GSD were crossed in to increase size.


I might be mistaken but I thought I had read in a couple of places where the "breeders" (or some) claimed that they were just "larger coated Shepherds". Come to think of it where I *think* I saw that might not have been as reliable as I had thought when I originally posted that.


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Thanks! Very helpful! 
Here is my update...Hoo~ it is time consuming~ 














> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiHere you have more information for your chart
> http://dogbreeds.bulldoginformation.com/shepherd-dogs-wolfdogs-wolf-dog-hybrids.html


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

the only thing i'd change about the updated chart is naming all of the sables, that can get confusing for you. there are basically light sables, dark sables and black sables (which i believe are exclusive to DDR lines). what one person calls a red sable, another could say its a tan sable or gold sable, etc etc... i'm pretty sure a sable is a sable when it comes to registry.

there are also black & cream and/or black & silver shepherds too (again, genetically a black and tan)

the "golden" under rare colors has been called a faded red sable by some... and "cream" is a variation of white german shepherds. it can vary from a a completely cream dog, to a white dog with cream or gold tips (around the ears, etc)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

a side note - to explain the term you are using "rare" - 

in English - "rare" is usually a positive word and is also considered "desireable" or "highly sought" - some people marketing these colors you note will call them "rare" to convince people buying the dogs that they are highly desireable.....while in fact, these are colors which are considered faults. So you should list them as "undesireable" colors, which is the true consideration. People who are native English speakers are calling them rare in a deceptive marketing effort.

Lee


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

That's a lot information! Thank you! 
I'll try to figure out how to add these to my chart.











> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderthe only thing i'd change about the updated chart is naming all of the sables, that can get confusing for you. there are basically light sables, dark sables and black sables (which i believe are exclusive to DDR lines). what one person calls a red sable, another could say its a tan sable or gold sable, etc etc... i'm pretty sure a sable is a sable when it comes to registry.
> 
> there are also black & cream and/or black & silver shepherds too (again, genetically a black and tan)
> 
> the "golden" under rare colors has been called a faded red sable by some... and "cream" is a variation of white german shepherds. it can vary from a a completely cream dog, to a white dog with cream or gold tips (around the ears, etc)


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes, I think breeding these kinds of shepherd was inspired by the idea of "Altdeutsche Schäferhund"~ 



> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> I might be mistaken but I thought I had read in a couple of places where the "breeders" (or some) claimed that they were just "larger coated Shepherds". Come to think of it where I *think* I saw that might not have been as reliable as I had thought when I originally posted that.


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi Wolfstraum, your comments are informative! I'll work to improve my chart.











> Originally Posted By: Wolfstrauma side note - to explain the term you are using "rare" -
> 
> in English - "rare" is usually a positive word and is also considered "desireable" or "highly sought" - some people marketing these colors you note will call them "rare" to convince people buying the dogs that they are highly desireable.....while in fact, these are colors which are considered faults. So you should list them as "undesireable" colors, which is the true consideration. People who are native English speakers are calling them rare in a deceptive marketing effort.
> 
> Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I don't really understand the purpose of the chart, but it does seem overly complicated.

There are only 4 allowed colors under the GSD standard: sable, black/tan, bi-color and solid black.

Everything else in the allowed colors... "tan sable", "black sable", "blanket pattern", "saddle pattern" are merely caused by differences in amount and extension of black pigment. Same sort of situation goes for black/red, black/cream, black/silver... they are all genetically black/tan, they just have different hues of tan pigment, some richer and some more washed out.

White is a masking gene that causes the entire dog to be white, though some whites are really white, and others have more of a yellow hue to them often with golden highlights on the ears, back, etc.. 

Blue and liver are dilution genes that can affect a dog of any color, and turn black pigment into gray or brown. 

ANY bloodline of GSD can come in any of those colors, though due to preferences (or lackthereof) amongst fanciers, certain colors tend to be more common in certain bloodlines.. like black/tan being predominant in show lines.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: UrYes, I think breeding these kinds of shepherd was inspired by the idea of "Altdeutsche Schäferhund"~


The oversized long coat "Old Style" breeders have been around for a long time. Well before the Altdeutsche Schaferhund variety sprung up in Europe.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: UrThat's a lot information! Thank you!
> I'll try to figure out how to add these to my chart.
> 
> 
> ...


i'm sorry - i meant "change" as in NOT naming all of the sable colors and unofficial colors as you've done. i agree, the chart is becoming quite complicated to follow.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree, you started your chart with a handful of lines and a handful of colors, now you see there is more in between and you need to decide if you are going to do a chart of colors OR a chart of lines, otherwise it's mixing oranges and apples.


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## UrSun (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi Guys~ Thank you for all the comments~
I agree the chart has become too complicated. @[email protected]
I'm trying to simplify it and also try to keep important information there. But I don't know how to add "colors" to this chart yet (I think a seperated chart about GSD colors and patterns might be better. What do you think?)
This is just not a serious project. But since I've began doing this, I just want to try my hard.








Anyway, here is my update:


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: UrBut I don't know how to add "colors" to this chart yet (I think a seperated chart about GSD colors and patterns might be better. What do you think?)


honestly i don't think you should go through the trouble when there are excellent examples like this: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i58/abbydogblog/other/colors.jpg

and like chris said - every color and pattern can show up in any line... but each line (mainly show) has their preference. once you become more familiar with the breed, you'll no longer need a chart or checklist to recognize what line a dog is from. there is usually just an overall look that screams one line or another. you must also be aware that mixing lines is not uncommon either.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know this is a lot of work, but Shawlein has done an excellent job of covering the aspects you are describing different breed types.

One thing I have never seen [other than complex tail line charts] is a basic historical chart showing breed splits. E.g., the german working/show split, the German am split, the DDR/West German/Slovalk splits - etc with the formation of the eastern bloc, reintroduction of german show into alsation, etc. 

And then are the Belgian, etc dogs really separate types or just west german working lines? 

I have been very very disappointed that books on breed history are so focused on showlines of either ilk that understanding the history of the WL gets short shrift.


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