# Fear Aggression & Protective Aggression



## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

I have heard that a FA dog cannot be protective, that if they seem like they are, they are actually scared and/or stressed. Could I get some closure on this? Can a FA dog be protective? Or are they just saving themselves like the typical FA dog?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It depends. Is the dog FA with other dogs or with people? Can a DA dog be protective against people? And vice versa. My trainer said ALL aggression is based in fear...which makes sense...so I would say that yes, a FA dog could be protective.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

To a point. If the bad guy is stupid enough or high enough and decides that the dog is basically a chair in his path, the dog is going to be attacked. A dog with fight will indeed fight back. Terriers will often do this and they just don't care that they are much smaller. Kill or be killed. A good GSD will take on the threat. A lesser GSD will do what it can to save its skin and then disappear. 

You can see the same traits in people. Why do some stand and fight while others flee? Good training supports only so much before genetics kicks in and decides the rest.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> It depends. Is the dog FA with other dogs or with people? Can a DA dog be protective against people? And vice versa. My trainer said ALL aggression is based in fear...which makes sense...so I would say that yes, a FA dog could be protective.


He is FA with people. That makes perfect sence! The dog is insecure and feels the need to show some sort of aggression. Like with a DA dog, wouldn't they be fearfull of another dog or person taking his/her power away? So they show aggression to "enforce" their dominant role and show everybody who's boss? (Maybe I'm way off, correct me if I am.) I would think so also, up to a point. Thanks!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

DianaM said:


> To a point. If the bad guy is stupid enough or high enough and decides that the dog is basically a chair in his path, the dog is going to be attacked. A dog with fight will indeed fight back. Terriers will often do this and they just don't care that they are much smaller. Kill or be killed. A good GSD will take on the threat. A lesser GSD will do what it can to save its skin and then disappear.
> 
> You can see the same traits in people. Why do some stand and fight while others flee? Good training supports only so much before genetics kicks in and decides the rest.


 My FA GSD will take on what seems to be a protective role, but as soon as the "threat" turns to him, he runs away. This isn't surprising, I know what to expect of a FA dog and I'm his protector, I don't expect him to protect me. I agree with you, I think a FA dog can be protective to a point. I also believe genetics play a huge part.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I can't speak for other FA dogs, just my experience with Woolf. 

Woolf is FA DA/ha sometimes, so I had thought as others do, that any protective response would be to save his own skin. In the last couple of months there have been a couple of incidents that has me rethinking that.

One morning we were at a local park (not dog park) training, no one but us there (absolutely great park to use since dogs are next door and visible) and a car full of 'grungy' guys pulled in and parked. Woolf's reaction was _nothing_ like it usually is. Woolf stood tall, but not forward as he normally does, more planted and quiet. Alert and focused on the guys, but not the typical hard reactive focus. If that makes sense... As we began working our way back to get our things, he kept himself between me and the guys. Once I had all the stuff picked up and on the way to the truck, he fell into a heel position and didn't offer to do a sniff test on the first thing. I firmly believe his presence prevented some problems for me that morning.

The other time, once again a morning, DH had left to run some errands. Meanwhile, I had jumped in the shower. While I was in the shower DH came home and not realizing the door was locked attempted to open the door. I could hear Woolf, wasn't his usual bark, instead was deep, very loud. DH said as soon as he spoke, Woolf quieted and backed off the door. Woolf has never done that before. Normally it's a couple of barks when someone is at the door and that is it.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Twyla said:


> I can't speak for other FA dogs, just my experience with Woolf.
> 
> Woolf is FA DA/ha sometimes, so I had thought as others do, that any protective response would be to save his own skin. In the last couple of months there have been a couple of incidents that has me rethinking that.
> 
> ...


 Wow, that doesn't sound like something a typical FA dog would do, but that's great!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What most people see as protection is merely territoral aggression (a dog barking at tresspassers) or fear aggression.

A dog that stops an actual threat approaching you has not actually protected you. If the threat had not stopped, what would have happened? A fearful dog turns and runs if given the option, and you are left with no protection. 

It is not protection unless there is a real threat, the dog actually acts on the threat, and does not back down. 

In my mind, protection is when the dog stays and actually engages a threat when it has the option to flee.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> What most people see as protection is merely territoral aggression (a dog barking at tresspassers) or fear aggression.
> 
> It is not protection unless there is a real threat, and the dog actually acts when the threat does not back down. A fearful dog turns and runs if given the option, and you are left with no protection.
> 
> In my mind, protection is when the dog stays and actually engages a threat when it has the option to flee.


I know my dog is FA, and I don't even know if he is being protective, but he definately gets scared for me when people are getting rough with me. Or is he scared for himself (which I know is typical for a FA dog)? But you would think that he would just run and hide wouldn't you? It would be safer for him. But no, he stays and barks and tries to act mean to scare the people away (even though there is no real threat). And I agree with you on the protection. But a FA dog can't tell a real threat from rough-housing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think a dog that has fear aggression will know the difference of a threat or not, after maturity....just like any other dog.
Rough housing is still a threat, as the dog(or people) never know when it escalates to someone being harmed.
Onyx has FA yet she really loves to fight, is aggressive/dominant and has some anxious tendencies. She is a puzzle to me. IF she was actually threatened with physical pressure, I don't think she'd back down. When she was immature, she did, but now, she knows she carries some 'power' and has confidence that she didn't when younger.
But she still isn't balanced and IMO balance in the temperament is key in a dogs ability to assess situations and act appropriately. Her threshold is on the low end too, which plays into her behavior. 
There are many variables in each dogs personality, so we can't really put them all in the same catagory.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I think a dog that has fear aggression will know the difference of a threat or not, *after maturity*....just like any other dog.


Woolf is closing in on the infamous 2 yr mark - 22 mths, that along with the over all improvement is what has me rethinking the protection. I'm not labeling it protection, he is more then willing to do his bat crazy dance if I don't stay on top of him, but it is food for thought. I know the behaviorist was very pleased when the weekly update had this news in it. sigh - gotta love these dogs if for no other reason they make you think lol


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Males at two are not yet mature. Onyx didn't mentally mature til she was 3. Karlo is 3yrs and 4 mos and still showing puppy head. But I see him change mentally often so it is happening.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

He definitely isn't mature, one reason I am not labeling it. The behavior was so out of character for him, reason it stands out.

Woolf is so goof ball I wonder if he'll ever really mature lol


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Im interested in this as well. I've had issues with my girl being FA. After a year and a half she's soooo much better just has a few kinks to work out.
One day, my mom came by my house to drop something off. She pulled up and instead of knocking, just came in.
Jasmine barked deep and charged the door. My
Mom closed the door a bit and said jasmine it's grandma. And jasmine got all excited with the wiggly butt. She loves her grandma.
I was wondering if this was a fear response or some sort of protection response. 
Idk much about dog behavior. She did have her hackles up, but normally when she is having a FA moment she has her hackles raised and backs away or hides behind me.
I wasn't sure what to make of it


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## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

^ i see that in Triad he acts mature every now and then he .is 18 months now e has FA towards old people. but i did notice this old guy at the beach dog park was rough/grow playing and Triad warmed up to him a little bit. so not sure if its FA or what.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

some FA dogs never know the difference between threat and non threat, thats why its important for them to be well trained and learn to trust their owner. maturity does help some but it depends on the dog and how severe the FA is. and also the continuation of regular socializing, training and positive exposures.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I think a dog that has fear aggression will know the difference of a threat or not, after maturity....just like any other dog.
> Rough housing is still a threat, as the dog(or people) never know when it escalates to someone being harmed.
> Onyx has FA yet she really loves to fight, is aggressive/dominant and has some anxious tendencies. She is a puzzle to me. IF she was actually threatened with physical pressure, I don't think she'd back down. When she was immature, she did, but now, she knows she carries some 'power' and has confidence that she didn't when younger.
> But she still isn't balanced and IMO balance in the temperament is key in a dogs ability to assess situations and act appropriately. Her threshold is on the low end too, which plays into her behavior.
> There are many variables in each dogs personality, so we can't really put them all in the same catagory.


I see. I have always been told that a FA dog can't know the difference, and it made sence to me. Like with Harley, he shows aggression when someone does the smallest things, such as; tickle, hug, high-five....etc. And it's even worse with people he's getting to know, like my friend Katie. She came up and gave me a hug one day and Harley lunged and bark-growled at her (also bared teeth). He showed no sign of fear, and he wasn't backing down until I told him to be quiet. Was this protective behavior? I understand. All dogs are different, therefore you can't know exactly what to expect of your FA dog.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

thats right, FA dogs are unpredictable. thats why the owner needs to be in total control.

in a situation like someone hugging you. the best thing to do is put him in a down stay as long as he is well trained in that command, and then hug the person. when they are in an obedience command that means you are controlling the situation and are in charge, letting him relax and not have to react. just because FA dogs are fearful does not mean they won't be protective, after all thats in the breed. there are different makeups and different combinations of reactions with these dogs. some fearful dogs will retreat at a sign of a threat, maybe hide behind owner, or try to get away. some will come forward and try to scare off the threat because they have learned that that reaction works well., and anything that has worked in the past will be repeated. the owner of an FA dog needs to take total control in all situations, letting the dog know your in charge not them. because more times than not they are not going to make good decisions. although its also important to teach them appropriate behavior as well, some feel sorry for their FA dogs and tend to let them get away with things, they still need corrections and guidence. if you know your dog is going to react badly to something you need to be prepared ahead of time with the right decision before he reacts. its an individual problem, and reading your dog is so important. learning comfort distances and working within boundries and never putting them in a situation you know he's going to fail in. but slowly conditioning for those situations.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

debbiebrown said:


> thats right, FA dogs are unpredictable. thats why the owner needs to be in total control.
> 
> just because FA dogs are fearful does not mean they won't be protective, after all thats in the breed. there are different makeups and different combinations of reactions with these dogs. some fearful dogs will retreat at a sign of a threat, maybe hide behind owner, or try to get away. some will come forward and try to scare off the threat because they have learned that that reaction works well., and anything that has worked in the past will be repeated. the owner of an FA dog needs to take total control in all situations, letting the dog know your in charge not them. because more times than not they are not going to make good decisions. although its also important to teach them appropriate behavior as well, some feel sorry for their FA dogs and tend to let them get away with things, they still need corrections and guidence. if you know your dog is going to react badly to something you need to be prepared ahead of time with the right decision before he reacts. its an individual problem, and reading your dog is so important. learning comfort distances and working within boundries and never putting them in a situation you know he's going to fail in. but slowly conditioning for those situations.



Wow, great advice! I completely agree that dogs have a combination of reasons for their reactions. Benny tends to be reactive aggressively, sometimes it is fear based, sometimes resource guarding, being protective, or just trying to be in charge. The maturity that came at age 3, brought the training we have done has helped him gain more impulse control and look to me for direction. During our most difficult time I worked on making his obedience so tight that his first reaction was to obey. This has really paid off more than once.

Just last week we went out and one of our neighbors dogs was loose again. Because these dogs always try to fence fight when Benny is in the back yard he gets amped up as soon as he sees them. The dog a smallish terrier /poodle ran over to Benny lunging, snarling. Benny growled , lunged, nearly knocked me off my feet, but I gave a stern "Down" and he instantly flopped down at my side and remained while the owner got the dog.

Benny also does not like strangers ( human and dogs) approaching him full on with direct eye contact. (This is considered rude to dogs) A calm "look at me" command has helped me divert Benny's focus. His "spidey sense" still tells him he is being stared at but he will no longer react.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

debbiebrown said:


> thats right, FA dogs are unpredictable. thats why the owner needs to be in total control.
> 
> in a situation like someone hugging you. the best thing to do is put him in a down stay as long as he is well trained in that command, and then hug the person. when they are in an obedience command that means you are controlling the situation and are in charge, letting him relax and not have to react. just because FA dogs are fearful does not mean they won't be protective, after all thats in the breed. there are different makeups and different combinations of reactions with these dogs. some fearful dogs will retreat at a sign of a threat, maybe hide behind owner, or try to get away. some will come forward and try to scare off the threat because they have learned that that reaction works well., and anything that has worked in the past will be repeated. the owner of an FA dog needs to take total control in all situations, letting the dog know your in charge not them. because more times than not they are not going to make good decisions. although its also important to teach them appropriate behavior as well, some feel sorry for their FA dogs and tend to let them get away with things, they still need corrections and guidence. if you know your dog is going to react badly to something you need to be prepared ahead of time with the right decision before he reacts. its an individual problem, and reading your dog is so important. learning comfort distances and working within boundries and never putting them in a situation you know he's going to fail in. but slowly conditioning for those situations.


Thanks! I'll work on that. I'll put him in the down-stay position when 
I think he might react to something like that. I used to feel sorry for him, but I realized that me feeling sorry for him wasn't going to make anything better, probably just make things worse.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

DebbieG, My Sam is like that, he is uncomfortable with strange people and dogs approaching him. all depending on the situation, if its a human, i will se them coming and again use that obedience, or if i see he might be real uncomfortable i take over and finish walking up to the person, changing the situation so i am making the decision to approach and then he relaxes. there are so many different ways all depending on the dog, issues, etc.
Brittany, make sure he has a solid down stay before doing the hug thing. or you can also set hime up, have someone holding him onleash in a down nearby and practice hugging people. sounds weird, but the more he goes through the motions of it happening and being in control the better chance of him getting over it.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

debbiebrown said:


> Brittany, make sure he has a solid down stay before doing the hug thing. or you can also set hime up, have someone holding him onleash in a down nearby and practice hugging people. sounds weird, but the more he goes through the motions of it happening and being in control the better chance of him getting over it.


 That doesn't sound wierd. If that's what I have to do to get him to stop lunging at my friends, I'll do it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can you imagine if the CGC meet and greet became a CGC meet and hug? Ick! I don't even know what my dogs would make of that. I come from a family that really doesn't hug people, and so they have NEVER seen that.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

It's important to try to make it a non-issue. If you are setting him up (on a leash, down/stay) try not to make it an entire theater production. 

Keep it short, keep it simple. Reward for good behavior.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

selzer said:


> Can you imagine if the CGC meet and greet became a CGC meet and hug? Ick! I don't even know what my dogs would make of that. I come from a family that really doesn't hug people, and so they have NEVER seen that.


 Well everybody is different. I am surrounded by family and friends that could live off of hugs!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, i agree, make it a short production not a big deal. looks like you'll be doing alot of hugging...........the things we do for our dogs!


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

*Yes it is possible to be FA and protective.*

Mozart(16 months, male) seen a board certified behaviorist(ACVB), an actual vet that not the trainers that get a certifications as a behaviorist (CAAB and ACAAB). 

He was clinically diagnosed as fear aggressive and protective. 

Mozart has a different reaction when is scared and when he is protective. 
When is acting out of fear there is heavy panting,crying, constant movement ie back forth , licks his lips. 
When he is sure, it is is just frozen state , ears are strait up and forward and he just watches, looks at me and goes back and forth, watching my reaction. 

Probably the biggest item was my autistic niece went on a walk with me Mozart and some other family members. My niece ran, scream and went to hug my wife , knocking her to ground. Mozart went off at that point, I caught him before he could hurt anyone but I don't really fault him. Mazart was only 1 year old at the time and my niece basically did screaming tackle to my wife. 

The vet said Mozart's prognosis is good because he still takes commands even when he is going off the wall. Suggestion is to train, train and when your done with that train some more. Mozart has a long way to go and I don't let anyone else touch him except my wife and I because he isn't consistent enough. Hoping he grows out of it eventually , he is still very immature.


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

*Down and stay.*

Down and stay has been a life saver for me at times. On one occasion four yapper dogs broke out of their house and charge Mozart and I. I was very lucky he completely listen to me and went into down and stay on command. I was proud of him but I wouldn't want to test him like that again. 

I started with down and stay. First while I was in sight , then a treat next to him that he had to stay, then out of sight, added distractions like running around him , jumping over him. The last one was taking him to tennis court and playing ball , but he could only chase the ball when I told him he could.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

this is why solid obedience is so important. also doing Obdeience in every situation, everywhere, not just at home.

learning your dogs body lauguage is so important. all the signals they give wether slight or intense. you can look at a dog body lauguage chart that gives examples of behvior reading, but all dogs are different. so its imparative to note your dogs reaction/body lauguage in each situation. usually a stiff stance and ears forward, hair up, and tail up or straight out means trouble. but there could be a combination of other postures as well.

after learning what to look for break it down and try to figure out the first slight signals so you can catch things before they happen. some dogs whine before reacting, sometimes you can read it in the eyes, ears, etc.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

benbennett said:


> Mozart(16 months, male) seen a board certified behaviorist(ACVB), an actual vet that not the trainers that get a certifications as a behaviorist (CAAB and ACAAB).
> 
> He was clinically diagnosed as fear aggressive and protective.
> 
> ...


Alright then, I'd say that settles that. A FA dog can be protective. I would say that Harley is protective, he has somewhat the same reaction. When he is scared, he is a distance away or behind something, and he barks a very deep bark with his hackles raised. When he is "protective" or angry, he has a growl-bark, he bares his teeth, hackles aren't raised, and he lunges or stands his ground. I have been working with him when guests are over, telling him to sit or lay down, and he listens. So that would be a good sign.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

debbiebrown said:


> this is why solid obedience is so important. also doing Obdeience in every situation, everywhere, not just at home.
> 
> learning your dogs body lauguage is so important. all the signals they give wether slight or intense. you can look at a dog body lauguage chart that gives examples of behvior reading, but all dogs are different. so its imparative to note your dogs reaction/body lauguage in each situation. usually a stiff stance and ears forward, hair up, and tail up or straight out means trouble. but there could be a combination of other postures as well.
> 
> after learning what to look for break it down and try to figure out the first slight signals so you can catch things before they happen. some dogs whine before reacting, sometimes you can read it in the eyes, ears, etc.


 I do obedience everywhere. I have trained Harley to listen to all commands in nervous situations, such as taking a walk near a store where people are going in and out. He does fantastic, and I can be confident that he will listen. I have gotten to the point to where I can do off-leash training at the park near my house (also does fantastic), people can even be near. I have been reading his body language better now that I have seen him react in different situations. Like this morning, (has nothing to do with FA) our neighbors Pitbull was on a very loose chain and he came right up to our fence (thank God for that fence!). I let Harley out, and as soon as he saw the dog, he became very tense and he raised his tail, I knew he was going to charge, but I didn't have time to react. He ran at the dog, hackles and tail raised, and tried to attack him through the fence. Harley is very obedient, so I called his name and he left the dog and came to me. He really isn't very dog reactive, just territorial.


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