# Feeling Overwhelmed



## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

I have been in contact with a local club in my area, and they have scheduled for my pup, (Ronin, 5.5 months) to go out to their tracking field this weekend to see if he has any potential. Now, they want me to do 5 full sessions with them before they make any decisions. Which is perfectly fine with me, not that's not my issue. I spoke with the director of the club for an hour and a half last night, and he basically told me that my dog was over-trained and that he was going to be weak if I didn't stop. Now, I'm perfectly fine taking criticism and told him that I am a first time owner and this is just a trial not only for Ronin but for myself to see if this is something we will enjoy doing together. I am more than willing to take his advice on what he needed to do, and understood that he might not be a good fit for this particular sport. However, I feel like he threw so much information at me that I can't process it all and I'm having a hard time to know where to start. If anyone has any advice or tips for me to help me maybe understand things a bit better that would be greatly appreciated.

I did research the sport, but he told me to forget everything I read and that most of it was incorrect. So now I don't even know if the sport I read about on the official Canadian Website is the right one or if I want to do this sport at all.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You shouldn't feel overwhelmed maybe the wrong trainer. What 5 month old is over trained?I plan to start max in tracking soon. I'm not familiar with the process as there is much information about on this forum. I started off with nose works which was told it is a good precursor to tracking. It is different in a sense where it allows air scenting. It may be something that interests you also. I knew my dog would always love a sport as tracking and nose works as seems to be his strong point -they are all different though. 
I really do it for if god for bid anyone if our family members went missing - as crazy as that might sound. 
Nose works may be a good way to start it really is so much fun!!!! This site I copied has some videos on nose works and info if you are interested. Tracking and nose works are great confident builders if it's their thing. 
http://www.nacsw.net


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

What is over trained?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

First off, it is COMPLETELY NORMAL to feel overwhelmed when one starts down the road of IPO/SchH, LOL! It takes YEARS to understand it all. It is not something you wll 'get' by reading stuff.

There are a lot of different ways of looking at the training, and a lot of different ways to train, so the best way to not feel too overwhelmed, is to follow your club. 

I can't tell you how frustrating it is when someone comes to our club, and we give them advice, and they shut us down because "that's not what the video they watched/or the website they read" said to do. 

A lot of us, overall, have started our journey with dogs that were not all that well suited for the training, but we stuck with it, learned as much as we could, became better trainers, better handlers, our dogs became happier and more responsive, and we had fun along the way. In IPO, we build up energy, enthousiasm, drive, and channel it into specific behaviours and exercises. The first few months of training is just that, building the dog up - OB is brought in gradually along the way, the pups not even realizing that this is "training", they think it is all a great big fun game. 

Sometimes when people put a lot of obedience on a young dog, it is hard to re-train them to be energetic and enthusiastic in all they do. Not saying that is Ronin - have no clue what he is like. 

You'll find IPO is a journey - not sure what you thought it was from reading the GSSCC website, and what impression you got from talking to your trainer - but no, you won't get an idea about what the training involves from reading. Wanting to join a club, working your dog hands-on, will give you an idea. It will overwhelm you even more, but eventually, by the time Ronin is ready for his IPO I, you'll start to see it all. But the learning never ends - it's like trying to learn a new language - immerse yourself into it, reading a dictionary will only teach you so much.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> What is over trained?


Too much obedience on a young pup - to the point that they are afraid to do anything on their own, and have become robotic. It can squash down drive.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

over trained at 5 1/2 months ?
what motivates the dog?


I don't know your dog. Maybe what they
saw was a dog who was not bold and daring by nature 
and inhibited by "training" , all those things that anxious
first time GSD owners may do to prevent future "problems".
In a way it is saying you need to take a step back and not
micro manage the dog . Control isn't a straight jacket.


Did you choose tracking because there was no potential for aggression?
Before you go out to the club have some fun at home or along some
scrubby area with ungroomed grass . 
Toss a ball close by -- reward for getting it and bringing it back.
Each time toss the ball a little further .
One time, after the dog gets the game and is pumped up , throw ball into an area where it is hidden from view while restraining him by holding on to collar.
Let him go.
Does he launch himself into the find , dawdle, sit on your foot, go out and give a half hearted 
oh well look -- that will let you know his inherent hunt / search drive. 
If it is low -- then start your experience at the club with something more dynamic - something
with action , motion , running after a a bumper on a string , having a piece of chamois passed in front of him letting him get frustrated and then released.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> What is over trained?


Like Eddie, the Jack Russell on the tv show Frasier, spent most of his time waiting to be told what to do next.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> Too much obedience on a young pup - to the point that they are afraid to do anything on their own, and have become robotic. It can squash down drive.


Isn't that hard to do with a young puppy? I have a WL who is on the soft side, medium drive, and have been training since I got him. He is still bouncy and enthusiastic no matter what I teach him. I wouldn't mind a little less energy and a little more attention when we are working.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Like Eddie, the Jack Russell on the tv show Frasier, spent most of his time waiting to be told what to do next.


Oh, OK! Hmm, if I had a Jack Russell, I would like some quiet attention. My friend has one and he is an energizer bunny. They run him an hour every morning and then he's ready for his regular walk.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why don't you just relax, go to the sessions and see if your dog has the drive to do IPO and if you fit in with the club? I think you are stressing yourself out over a sentence which basically means you might be putting to much control on your dog at this time. If that is so, they'll help you with that as well. They will teach you where to start. That's what the club and the TD are for.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Isn't that hard to do with a young puppy? I have a WL who is on the soft side, medium drive, and have been training since I got him. He is still bouncy and enthusiastic no matter what I teach him. I wouldn't mind a little less energy and a little more attention when we are working.


It depends on the dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Oh, OK! Hmm, if I had a Jack Russell, I would like some quiet attention. My friend has one and he is an energizer bunny. They run him an hour every morning and then he's ready for his regular walk.


They said nobody on the set liked him. He did not interact with anybody, just sat there staring at his trainer.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

as Jax said, depends on the dog... but also depends on the method of training as well as the work/sport/area of interest.

I train guide dogs and the moment a puppy raiser shows up beaming ear to ear because their dog received all excellents on their final eval my first thought is "great! now I'm gonna have lead issues". you'd think it would make most dogs day once they find out that pulling is actually the desired behavior, but nope, it's gotta be taught.

the naughty dogs at least have the confidence to do _something_ - I've just gotta shape it into the right thing and convince them that the better choice is just as cool too.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It does make sense. I remember in nose works the instructor saying a few of the dogs that were overly well disciplined would be a negative factor as would affect their searches and not be as forward as not searching on the counters or in a pocket book,table etc. and we can see this - these were older dogs though and not 5 1/2 month pups.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I know for SAR work, especially trailing where the dog has to take the lead, it is almost encouraged not to over obedience your dog. Obviously you want obedience, just not click- the heels- salute the suit - and stand tall and at attention until told otherwise obedience where the dog is not allowed to make decisions... Once drive is channeled appropriately to the goal and the game is cemented in and the dog knows the game and loves it, then a little more stringent obedience can be locked in... 

Excited to hear how the training goes... As to what to expect? I don't know about tracking for sport... That will be nose to the ground and footstep tracking.. Some dogs can thrive under the strict discipline of it, some prefer trail where they are allowed to take the strongest source of scent follow that.. Nose work is great fun too and since scent is the dogs primary source of learning, most dogs enjoy using their noses for reward.. 

Bottom line, you have a young dog and you want to have fun with it and learn.. So do it! Have fun  No lives hang in the balance, go with an open mind and watch your doggie unfurl his genius in whatever venue takes his fancy... Great bonding time


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm with Carm tho! obviously I don't know Ronin but I'd 5.5 months I'd be looking for the director to say "it's gonna take some work but let's find something to loosen this boy up and get him motivated!" you know, be up for the challenge and encourage you both!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes although tracking seems intense I would think still enjoyable if not then something else as the dogs should enjoy what he is doing.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I just wanted to echo that doing new structured things with our dogs can be overwhelming for sure. When I started SAR I was always overwhelmed and if you know how it works people are always giving advice and a lot of it conflicts. Sometimes my mind was spinning and I made mistake after mistake. BUT, I loved it and wanted to learn. I think for the most part in the dog sport and dog work world you will meet lots of opinionated people. Smile, don't take it personally, be interested, learn and then YOU HAVE TO GO BACK AND SEE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU. You have to not take it personally and go back and write things down and try things out and find the sweet spot that is particular to you and your pup. In time your knowledge base grows and you learn whom to trust. 

Yes, too much obedience can happen. In SAR we try to be careful of that. Maybe it is this trainers thing. Consider it and decide how to proceed. Maybe it is time to play more with your dog and work on his confidence?

Above all, try not to hold too high of expectations for yourself. Go out and have fun and take joy in learning and learning you dog.

Best.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Thank you everyone for all your comments. I guess I had so much thrown at me at once that I just kind of freaked out. I plan on enjoying this, but it will definitely be a learning curve for me. I'm not expecting him to all of a sudden take to it and do it flawlessly. I just want to not get there and feel like I'm not doing anything right I guess.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Fodder said:


> as Jax said, depends on the dog... but also depends on the method of training as well as the work/sport/area of interest.
> 
> I train guide dogs and the moment a puppy raiser shows up beaming ear to ear because their dog received all excellents on their final eval my first thought is "great! now I'm gonna have lead issues". you'd think it would make most dogs day once they find out that pulling is actually the desired behavior, but nope, it's gotta be taught.
> 
> the naughty dogs at least have the confidence to do _something_ - I've just gotta shape it into the right thing and convince them that the better choice is just as cool too.


yeah I like this and DutchKarins comments.


remember to loosen up yourself !! 
If someone trys to haze you , then all you have to do is look at the dog, look back at the person .
Each and everyone of those 4 foot pooches can make a monkey , and probably has, out of the handler.


Experience comes with time , not always a direct line to success. 


Go and have fun. Learn. Bond. Find buddy's . 


Have the dog evaluated fairly , not based on his lines -- ASL, WGSL, WL . Your dog . Capitalize
on his potential and work it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" I just want to not get there and feel like I'm not doing anything right I guess"


relax , lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Don't worry. We all felt like incompetent klutzes the first time we went to a club and learned to handle our dogs.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

carmspack said:


> " I just want to not get there and feel like I'm not doing anything right I guess"
> 
> 
> relax , lol


Sorry, haha worrywort over here. I'll get over it, just have to remind myself to not panic. My problem too is that I'm only 23 and the youngest memeber in the club so far is 35. I'm just worried that people will look at me and think that I'm too young and can't hack it or that I'm like most people my age around here and don't have the drive to do it. i know I know I worry to much, but it's just how I'm feeling right now.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> I just want to not get there and feel like I'm not doing anything right I guess


LOL, you won't be doing anything right. Everything you thought you knew about dog training is going to be thrown out the window, and a brand new set of mind-blowing ideas and expectations is going to replace them. 

The one single thing that will impress the club members the most is your willingness to be open minded and to learn. Won't have anything to do with how well your puppy heels or fetches or sits. 

If you go there worried that you need to impress people with your handling skills, you won't be able to enjoy yourself. If you are willing to put those worries aside, think about starting a brand new adventure with your pup, willing to go there and start everything over again from point zero, you'll be fine.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

we have a new to the sport handler with a pup in our club. She has put quite a bit of the "look at me" focus training on her puppy that the pup had a hard time doing anything else(prey/tug work had the pup returning to his handlers feet for focus/direction). 

Our TD told her to do some flirtpole work instead of obedience for several sessions. It has helped to bring out the prey drive and the pups inhibition to get a bit wild is now less.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Ronin2016 said:


> Sorry, haha worrywort over here. I'll get over it, just have to remind myself to not panic. My problem too is that I'm only 23 and the youngest memeber in the club so far is 35. I'm just worried that people will look at me and think that I'm too young and can't hack it or that I'm like most people my age around here and don't have the drive to do it. i know I know I worry to much, but it's just how I'm feeling right now.


I trained an almost perfect dog when I was younger than you are. I was even better then than I am now because I didn't overthink things, I worked on instinct. Be confident. By the time you are the ages of the rest of us, you will be an awesome trainer. A young woman I know trained her first German Shepherd/first dog to Sch 3 when she was 23-25.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

You know the funny thing too... everyone there will likely be envious that you are starting young. Most of us come to this late. In SAR, I love seeing younger people coming in. How cool to have that much time to work on your skills. I don't have much time before I'm old... erhhh really old and my joints seize up. Feel proud. 

I recently read a study that said seeking help and asking questions actually leads to positive feelings for the person being asked. Basically you are stroking their egos. They will love helping you... unless they are jealous of your youth and then it isn't about you anyway. hahaha. You aren't supposed to know anything. You are new!! Milk that. I just certified in SAR and now I'm supposed to know my stuff... that makes me nervous at times. I love being a newbie.

A bit of mindfulness practice before you go to the club. Get out of your head, be enthusiastic, and the worthwhile people will love helping you.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> You know the funny thing too... everyone there will likely be envious that you are starting young. Most of us come to this late. In SAR, I love seeing younger people coming in. How cool to have that much time to work on your skills. I don't have much time before I'm old... erhhh really old and my joints seize up. Feel proud.
> 
> I recently read a study that said seeking help and asking questions actually leads to positive feelings for the person being asked. Basically you are stroking their egos. They will love helping you... unless they are jealous of your youth and then it isn't about you anyway. hahaha. You aren't supposed to know anything. You are new!! Milk that. I just certified in SAR and now I'm supposed to know my stuff... that makes me nervous at times. I love being a newbie.
> 
> A bit of mindfulness practice before you go to the club. Get out of your head, be enthusiastic, and the worthwhile people will love helping you.


I appreciate that  I actually am starting to feel a bit better about it every time someone gives me some advice and tells me to stop worrying. You can be blunt lol I can take it! Speaking to the director, he told me upfront that I better have some thick skin because there are a few people in the club, him included, that are a**holes (his words not mine) and that they will tell you like it is even if it hurts your feelings. I'm not worried about that, I'll just listen and try to fix whatever I did wrong. I am going to do some pre-scent pad training here at home before I go and hopefully that will give us a bit of a head start. I hope everyone knows I really appreciate all your help. Even on my other posts. I take it and work with it as much as I possibly can. Ronin may not be a good candidate for some of the aspects of Schutzhund but we're going to give it our best. That and the fact that he's only 5.5 months helps because he can still be really well trained.

I will have to do some work on my own because the two days a week they meet are Wednesday and Sundays, and Wednesdays I work a 12 hour shift so I will have to do a lot of homework on my own if it comes to that. However, the director said that we can work something out if I need extra help on something and my schedule won't work. But they go all day Sunday, and you can bet that if I'm accepted in, I'll be there with bells on! I'm one of those people that when I commit to something, you can bet I'm going to be doing it wholeheartedly.  I'm hoping that it will help me down the road when I get frustrated or just plain mad, because you know it's going to happen.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wouldn't do anything before you go....other than what you've already done. Let them instruct you. And give you homework. Ask questions, write it down(start a journal on the training) 

Remember that the only dumb question, is the one that is never asked and if the coach isn't yelling at you, s/he isn't doing his/her job!


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## Maximus0424 (May 2, 2016)

I am sorry to hi-jack this thread in am brand new here and never been on a forum before (it's sad but true). Can somebody please tell me how I can start a new post of my own? I need some help with my fury buddy. Thank you in advance


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> I wouldn't do anything before you go....other than what you've already done. Let them instruct you. And give you homework. Ask questions, write it down(start a journal on the training)
> 
> Remember that the only dumb question, is the one that is never asked and if the coach isn't yelling at you, s/he isn't doing his/her job!


They had asked that I try the scent pad so that when we got there I wouldn't feel so lost, but I'm not going to do too much of it just in case I do it wrong. But keeping a journal is a great idea! I never would have thought about that. It'll be good too for when my husband comes home so he can see the progress. He travels for months at a time for work, so this will be a Ronin and I thing only really, but maybe we can impress him when he comes home.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

before yet more formal training I would do the play that I described earlier --- toss something into an area where he can't see it and has to find it with his scenting ability.


the dog needs to put two and two together -- connect the dots.


excite him, make him want more -- allow him to drop some of his 
inhibitions


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Maximus0424 said:


> I am sorry to hi-jack this thread in am brand new here and never been on a forum before (it's sad but true). Can somebody please tell me how I can start a new post of my own? I need some help with my fury buddy. Thank you in advance


Go to forum index - click on the forum you want to post in. In the upper-ish left hand corner there is a "Post New Thread" button (or maybe it just says "New Thread" if you are in the classic view). 

Click the magic button, and there you are!!


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

carmspack said:


> over trained at 5 1/2 months ?
> what motivates the dog?
> 
> 
> ...


He actually hasn't been seen by anyone just yet. He's just going to be evaluated on Sunday. Sunday is their tracking day. so that's where they want him to start to see how he does. They will see how he does with other things over the 5 sessions. He told me I was overtraining in the fact that Ronin and I work on training every day for 5-10 minutes. Just stay, sit, down, come and leave it mostly. He told me to stop otherwise I would make him weak and a "Slave". Not sure how that works, but ok, so we haven't done any of that training, but I still make him mind or else he goes a bit crazy. He has a high play drive, especially when it comes to me throwing a ball, which the director said was a good start.

I'm going to try the game you suggested in the backyard and see if he goes for it. He's been playing in the front yard, so we'll see how he does in the back now that the work on it is all done.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We also do the same in SAR (obedience but keep it motivational and not so fine-tuned) , not wanting "velcro dogs" who will not range out independently from the handler - most of our obedience is solid as a rock reliable in all conditions, but a bit sloppy.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If he likes the water - I'm not sure if your young pup has been near any water yet if so -we would take max to the beach and many times the ball would go missing in the foaming after when the waves hit the shore. He would be relentless smelling that ball in the water I loved to watch him use his nose. Just another idea.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what ? 
" He told me I was overtraining in the fact that Ronin and I work on training every day for 5-10 minutes. Just stay, sit, down, come and leave it mostly. He told me to stop otherwise I would make him weak and a "Slave". "


You have to LIVE with the dog . To do less would be negligent.
If their sport dogs can't cope with some basic manners then they aren't good dogs.


good grief.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

carmspack said:


> what ?
> " He told me I was overtraining in the fact that Ronin and I work on training every day for 5-10 minutes. Just stay, sit, down, come and leave it mostly. He told me to stop otherwise I would make him weak and a "Slave". "
> 
> 
> ...


That's how I felt too! I don't think that it's too much for him to know those commands. I don't demand that he does it, or force him. He will do it if I ask, other times, forget it. He's a puppy and he still has a way to go. He feels that the dogs need to learn to do it motivated by food. Example, have a piece of food in your hand, the dog comes over to sniff it, then lift it up a bit and when they naturally sit, then give it to them. But only do it when the dog approaches. That's a bit too much freedom for me. I live in a 1200 square foot house, and that means, there isn't a lot of extra room, so when I'm in the kitchen, I want him to sit or lay down because then he's not in my way. If he wants to be in there with me that is. Sometimes I give him a toy and he goes and chews on it in the hall or living room until I'm done.

I'm going to be asking questions when I get there anyway. The sport is fun, but the dog is still my dog and needs to live with me. I also have been asked if he can get out of daycare. I have to take him out by 10 months anyway, but I'm not keen just yet on taking him out because as I mentioned, I work a 12 hour shift on Wednesdays and that's such a long time for him to be at home without a pee break. I don't think 1 day a week at daycare will hurt him, but opinions on that would be appreciated!


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Thank you everyone for all your advice. We have decided not to pursue Schutzhund with Ronin at this point in time. We had him assessed by another member of the club and I'm not comfortable with a few things this particular club does. We may pursue it later on, but for now, I am going to hold off. Thank you again for you help and advice.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You can find that perhaps another club as you mention the atmosphere in the club you experienced may be tainted or there are so many other sports you can venture in that you may find a better fit. Noseworks is much fun I think you and your young pup may like it.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Jenny720 said:


> You can find that perhaps another club as you mention the atmosphere in the club you experienced may be tainted or there are so many other sports you can venture in that you may find a better fit. Noseworks is much fun I think you and your young pup may like it.


I was given a name of someone else to look at that does scent training and protection work that's not so intense. We may start looking into them.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Ronin2016 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > You can find that perhaps another club as you mention the atmosphere in the club you experienced may be tainted or there are so many other sports you can venture in that you may find a better fit. Noseworks is much fun I think you and your young pup may like it.
> ...


Yes German shepherds are so smart and your pup is so young -I'm sure whatever you do with him and the right trainer and group of people you will succeed and have fun.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> we have a new to the sport handler with a pup in our club. She has put quite a bit of the "look at me" focus training on her puppy that the pup had a hard time doing anything else(prey/tug work had the pup returning to his handlers feet for focus/direction).
> 
> Our TD told her to do some flirtpole work instead of obedience for several sessions. It has helped to bring out the prey drive and the pups inhibition to get a bit wild is now less.


Very interesting observation! I believe this really can happen with some pups! BUT I'd bet money they would lose some focus as they grow towards adolescence.


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## KillRbee18 (Apr 11, 2016)

Ronin2016 said:


> I have been in contact with a local club in my area, and they have scheduled for my pup, (Ronin, 5.5 months) to go out to their tracking field this weekend to see if he has any potential. Now, they want me to do 5 full sessions with them before they make any decisions. Which is perfectly fine with me, not that's not my issue. I spoke with the director of the club for an hour and a half last night, and he basically told me that my dog was over-trained and that he was going to be weak if I didn't stop. Now, I'm perfectly fine taking criticism and told him that I am a first time owner and this is just a trial not only for Ronin but for myself to see if this is something we will enjoy doing together. I am more than willing to take his advice on what he needed to do, and understood that he might not be a good fit for this particular sport. However, I feel like he threw so much information at me that I can't process it all and I'm having a hard time to know where to start. If anyone has any advice or tips for me to help me maybe understand things a bit better that would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> I did research the sport, but he told me to forget everything I read and that most of it was incorrect. So now I don't even know if the sport I read about on the official Canadian Website is the right one or if I want to do this sport at all.


May I ask what sport you are talking about? I do apologize if it has been mentioned in all of these post; don't have the time to read all of them. I was thinking of enrolling my GS in search and rescue group.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

Jenny720 said:


> Yes German shepherds are so smart and your pup is so young -I'm sure whatever you do with him and the right trainer and group of people you will succeed and have fun.


Thanks.  Our regular trainer actually does some scent work, agility and scent hurdle racing. We may try those out too, and the other trainer's name I got does civil protection and tracking. We have lots of options and we're going to look into it. I want to have some fun with my boy.


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