# pro-bios vs. Nzymes bak-pak plus vs. yogurt



## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

I've been raw feeding for 3 or 4 months now, started with my husky mix, everything went good, so when i got my GSD pup I started her on raw at like 10-11 weeks old. everything is still going good.

what I'm trying to find out is if one is better than the other. I've only used the pro-bios that you can buy from the Leerburg site. but now that i"m raw feeding 2 dogs, I'm blowing right thru the pro-bios. the cost isn't really the issue, as is't about the same cost as the Nzymes bak pak plus, BUT the pro-bios dosage is about 5 times as much as a daily supplement as the Nzymes is. there's a guy on you tube that I watch that was using nzymes for it raw feed, and he seemed very happy with it. anywho, if I can get about 3-5 times the length of nzymes, and its just as good or better then the pro-bios then I'll consider switching, cause I'm tired of ordering a new thing every month or 2. Also, I used yogurt when I originally made the first 2 weeks of food just to trying it, and switch over to raw. and it seemed to work good, the price difference isn't much difference to the pro-bios, and its available at the store. 

Any knowledge is welcomed. FYI when I prepare food, I use ground beef at the main ingredient. and RMB comes from chicken legs or necks. and every now and then ( every other week or so) i'll buy some 1 pound cornish game hens, and split it between both dogs as a meal. I prepare the food for a whole month for both dogs, and i freeze, and thaw out enough for a weeks food at a time. other stuff is added into the mix, ofal and such, as well as kep, and alfalfa powder, and puried brocoli, and sometimes a potato, and also eggs are added. thanks for the help. 

Josh


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

also, what do you guys use for a probiotic, or do you not use any supplements at all?


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Bump


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

All of the products have different properties:


*PROBIOS* - Ingredients: Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, and Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product.

*Nyzmes Bac Pac*: Ingredients: Dried Whey, Active Dried Yeast, Ground Flaxseed, Yucca schidigera extract, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Extract Product, Silicon Dioxide

*Yogurt* is a dairy product made by culturing cream and/or milk with live and active cultures. The cultures in yogurt are living organisms. Yogurt that's produced in the U.S. is made with two specific live and active cultures: Lactobacillus bulgaricus (L. bulgaricus) and Streptococcus thermophilus (S. thermophilus). These metabolize some of the milk sugar (lactose) in the milk into lactic acid. This action helps change the consistency of liquid milk into yogurt. L. bulgaricus and S. thermophilus are required by U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) standards for a product to be called yogurt.

Here is some Pro Biotic information that may help you decide exactly what your dog needs by Dr. Karen Becker:
Probiotics are considered "beneficial" or "good" bacteria. There are many different kinds, or strains, of these bacteria. Each works to create a healthy balance in your pet's gastrointestinal system.
Individual strands are helpful for maintaining overall health as well as uniquely responding to the variety of daily stressors, both emotional and physiological, that your pet encounters.
*Research shows that 10 or more strains are recommended for promoting optimal health.*
So, if you find a pet probiotic product has 1-2 strains of bacteria – as is the case with many probiotics available today – that's fine. But, in my opinion, *selecting a probiotic that has 10 or more beneficial strains is a much preferred option*.
Why? The more beneficial strains you have in your probiotic, the better able they are to respond to the wide variety of stressors that can affect your pet's GI system. 
Many products today contain between 1 and 3 million beneficial bacteria per serving. This is okay. Any amount of probiotics can be helpful. However, in my opinion, if you really want to make sure you're promoting optimal health and wellbeing, you can do far better. Ideally, I believe *you'll want to find a probiotic formula with 20, 30, 40 million or more beneficial bacteria per serving.*
1. *Bifidobacterium lactis*: a friendly bacteria often found in yogurt that is known to help stimulate immune responses.
2. *Bifidobacterium animalis*: a unique bacteria that promotes optimal health and protection within the digestive tract.
3. *Lactobacillus acidophilus*: guards the health of your pet's entire digestive tract.
4. *Bifidobacterium longum*: keeps your pet's digestive system running smoothly, and helps enhance their immune system.
5. *Bifidobacterium bifidum*: helps promote a healthy balance of flora in your pet's intestine. What's more, this organism is especially helpful for enhancing immune response.
6. *Lactobacillus casei*: works with other helpful organisms, and helps to encourage the growth of other "good" bacteria.
7. *Lactobacillus plantarum*: helps to ensure that the nutrients in vitamins and supplements are getting to your pet's cells.
1. *Lactobacillus rhamnosus*: assists your pet's elimination and occasional intestinal discomfort by working to stabilize their intestinal microflora.
2. *Lactobacillus bulgarious*: works with other Lactobacillus strains to provide your pet with a potential source of dietary antioxidants.
3. *Bacillus coagulans*: helps enhance your pet's intestinal health and provides back-up for sporadic intestinal discomfort.


Moms


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

I'm not sure if that helped me, or if that confused me even more.


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## Flutter (Aug 2, 2013)

I don't feed pro or pre biotics but do feed ground tripe with every meal. Haven't seen any signs of our dog needing any help digesting his food.


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

I would like to find green tripe but I can't locally. And if I order it from green tripe.com how does it even come? Just thawed and vaccuum sealed? Now I'm wondering if I really even need a probiotic


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Greentripe.com only ships either Monday or Tuesday and by 2 day air. It comes frozen in tubes. I love their products (for the dogs not me!) but it is pricey to ship - although worth it! The dogs LOVE it.

I actually drove down there last time and stocked up!


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Oooops! 

*Active Dry Yeast and Flax seed can give some dogs reactions.

*IMO, Dairy products are not for dogs except for an occasional treat.

This one has most of the items in it:
Vetri Science : Vetri-Mega Probiotic: Vetri-Mega Probiotic for Dogs and Cats 

* Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product*
* Dried Lactobacillus plantarum Fermentation Product*
* Dried Bifidobacterium bifidum Fermentation Product*
* Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product*
* Dried Lactobacillus brevis Fermentation Product*
* Dried Bifidobacterium longum Fermentation Product*
* Dried Enterococcus thermophilus Fermentation Product*
**FOS (Fructooligosaccharides)*

This is Mercola's "For Pets" Probiotics, which has all of the strains mentioned but may not be as cost effective: Pet Probiotics | Optimal Digestive Health for Pets - Mercola.com 

Hope that helped a little!
Moms


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Mspiker,
Thanks, I didn't know that they could ship stuff frozen, and keep it frozen. Might have to look into adding this every once in a while to there food.

Moms,
Yes that last bit helped a bit, and opened my eyes to other products. A little pricey when your giving it to multiple dogs though.




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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

countryboy73703 said:


> Now I'm wondering if I really even need a probiotic


Wolves’ (Dogs') were designed to get live enzymes from the *fresh* prey that they killed. Their pancreas only produces a certain amount of enzymes (they didn’t need a lot b/c they ate live foods) and if they are not getting the enzymes they need from their prey’s guts and entrails, they have to get it from somewhere to be able to digest, absorb, and assimilate their food PROPERLY. Not having enough enzymes to do this can create mal-digestion and or mal-absorption in some dogs. The dog may end up only partially digesting its food in the stomach, and partially fermenting it in the gut and not absorbing all the nutrients and vitamins in the food. *A dogs’ gastrointestinal system protects them from allergens.* Since 70% of the immune system lies in the digestive tract, a dogs’ immune system HAS to be functioning properly to fight off the allergens. That is why *Digestive Enzymes and Probiotics *are so very important to your pets.


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Wolves’ (Dogs') were designed to get live enzymes .....


Well, I stand corrected. Some people, like above don't supplement enzymes, so that's why I was saying that. 




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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

When I was feeding Ralphie kibble, I supplemented with a plant enzymes & probiotics powder. Once I switched to raw and gave him a spoonful of green tripe with each meal, that's all he needs to keep his digestive tract on track. I get Ralphie's food (green tripe included) from MyPetCarnivore; not sure if you're in their delivery radius, but I highly recommend them if you are!


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Thanks for the info. That is a new site for me to order from. And it seems pretty cheap? Unless I'm just mis judging the amount per serving that I'm actually going to use between 2 dogs.

On a side note, they eat the same mix of food. My gsd pup gets gas.. And it stinks. The other grown husky mix doesn't have any problems at all... Any idea? I can handle it if there's nothing I can do, but no gas it preferred. Thanks. 


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

countryboy73703 said:


> Thanks for the info. That is a new site for me to order from. And it seems pretty cheap? Unless I'm just mis judging the amount per serving that I'm actually going to use between 2 dogs.
> 
> On a side note, they eat the same mix of food. My gsd pup gets gas.. And it stinks. The other grown husky mix doesn't have any problems at all... Any idea? I can handle it if there's nothing I can do, but no gas it preferred. Thanks.
> 
> ...


Could either be the eggs (are you doing them raw or cooked?) or the broccoli causing gas, all dogs guts are unique, just like ours. You'll need to stop both in the pups food, wait several days, then add one at a time, for a few days, to see if gas reappears and you will have your answer!


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Ok so most likely it's eggs or braccoli... It's not bad, some days are worse. I was just curious... And I mixed the eggs and shell in raw, then the entire batch is weighed out and bagged and frozen until I thaw a weeks worth for feeding 


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

broccoli - indigestible fibre and not good for dogs isothiocyanate which over long term and with volume can damage a dogs liver - toxic 

gas produced by cruciferous vegetable matter -- 

not being digested , will ferment , gas is by product

egg on the other hand is an excellent bio available protein and lipid source


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I use Digest Gold now and I have no more problems whatsoever.

Ditch the broccoli. It will give humans gas, let alone dogs who were not designed to digest it.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

countryboy73703 said:


> Ok so most likely it's eggs or braccoli... It's not bad, some days are worse. I was just curious... And I mixed the eggs and shell in raw, then the entire batch is weighed out and bagged and frozen until I thaw a weeks worth for feeding
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Next time you make a batch nix the eggs. If eggs are fed every day it could mess up their biotin uptake. Eggs can be fed safely 4 times per week. So you can just break opened an egg on each dogs food! Also, if feeding the shell, it must be ground up to a very fine texture for the dogs to be able to assimilate them properly. A Coffee grinder is great for this! If you are counting of the egg shell to provide the needed calcium, it must be balanced with phosphorus. But I think you said you were also feeding bones which is perfect and will supply the "bone meal" needed.

Sounds like you are doing a great job with raw feeding!

Moms


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

There's only about 5% broccoli in the mix, I purée it before I mix it in. 


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Yes... I researched a lot, and was able to experiment with the adult husky mix before I started raw feeding the pup. 


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

countryboy73703 said:


> There's only about 5% broccoli in the mix, I purée it before I mix it in.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App





carmspack said:


> broccoli - indigestible fibre and not good for dogs isothiocyanate which over long term and with volume can damage a dogs liver - toxic
> 
> gas produced by cruciferous vegetable matter --
> 
> not being digested , will ferment , gas is by product


Important info


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Something that is bad for your digestive system is bad for your digestive system in any quantity.
So the 5% should be 0%.
You asked what could be causing the gas and we told you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

One more thing: Huskies have iron stomachs. 
GSDs are the opposite. So just because the Husky does well on something does not mean your Shepherd will.


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Well I've never seen that broccoli was bad for dogs, I have seen that spinach and onion were though. I'll be sure to remove it from the diet and add potato, or something else instead 


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Dogs don't need veggies and fruits so there is no need to replace with potato.


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

I know that they don't ' need ' them... But what can they hurt? As long as it's the right ones?


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

They make kibble with sweet potato. Granted kibble isn't anything to talk too highly about, but I'm just saying. Regardless we are getting off topic, the thread was regarding probiotics.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Kibble has alot of things that are not good for dogs....ie. corn.

There are some that believe our dogs need veggies and fruit, I am not one of them. All I was getting at, was you don't have to stress about replacing anything with potato.

My dog has never had them and he has been raw fed right from weaning.

As for supplements, I use Feedsentials, Shemp oil and Sundae Sunday.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

countryboy73703 said:


> I know that they don't ' need ' them... But what can they hurt? As long as it's the right ones?


Potatoes have carbohydrates and starch, which can ferment in the gut, so yes, if your dog is having digestive problems potatoes can hurt.

Less is more when it comes to feeding dogs. I have found that the more bells and whistles I add, the worse off he is. Keeping it simple has made a big difference. If you want to add something that is truly good for them, research Olewo.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

both the CVMA and AMVA had broccoli on a list of toxic foods.
There is a liver enzyme which is inhibited which causes damage like cirrhosis -- 
You do know about grapes and raisins ? and xylitol ?

the dog can benefit from soft fruit , and leafy greens -- run a romaine lettuce and an English cucumber through your blender -- dandelion leaf, nettles, barley grass , wheat grass -- greens through leafy greens not cruciferous vegetables .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

recovered from a previous thread "

I have it right here -- just an excerpt from this article ---

"although some experts and book authors think broccoli is good for pets, the 
isothiocyanate it contains can kill livestock and cause gastrointestinal irritation and goitres in smaller animals, such as dogs. In small amounts broccoli's serious side effects are unpredictable and difficult to catch . But when this crucifer exceeds 25% of the diet , it is clearly fatal .
Sources for this information include US Veterinary USVMA , ASPCA, Humane Societies , and a list of 8 links .

This interferes with the thryroid


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I think if you put 10 Raw Feeder’s in a room, they’d all have a different recipe for what THEY think is the correct way of feeding! Some also believe in adding vitamins/minerals, but some not......some believe in adding digestive enzymes/probiotics.....some not.


20 years ago when their wasn’t much info about raw feeding, and our first GSD was dying, I made up my own recipe blending Pat McKay’s diet (adding vegetables and fruit) along with Kymythy Smith’s diet (adding raw meaty bones). I’ve been feeding that way ever since!

I agree that there is no need in a dogs’ diet for potatoes or grains, but a small percentage of the correct, fresh, pureed vegetables (some veg needs to be blanched or cooked) can’t hurt and can actually help as they contain important nutrients.

Below are statements for advocates of adding a small portions of vegetables to the dogs’ diet. And I think that is probably where where the OP is coming from and gathered info that made sense to HIM.

Dogs have actually eaten vegetables the whole period of their evolution, and that's a long time! As such, vegetables, particularly green leafy vegetables should form part of the domestic dog's healthy diet. Dogs need vegetables because they contain many important health promoting nutrients. The fiber your dog obtains from raw vegetables includes both soluble and insoluble fiber. Vegetables supply many other nutrients. Ian Billinghurst BARF Diet Specifics - Bones, Meat, Offal, Vegetables, Fruits & Other Nutrition Food Products for Pet

Feeding vegetables, fruits, and grains is optional, as dogs do not require carbohydrates in their diet. Even though these foods would make up a tiny percentage of the natural diet, they provide some nutritional value, especially trace minerals and phytonutrients from leafy green vegetables. Mary Straus DogAware.com Articles: Homemade Raw Diets for Dogs 

Dr. Knueven endorses a raw diet for dogs: raw meat, bones, fruits, vegetables and organ meats. Author of The Holistic Pet Guide and “Stand By Me: A Holistic Handbook For Animal, Their People, and The Lives They Share Together” 

Dr. Pitcarin: “Vegetables are valuable for adding vitamins, minerals and roughage to the diet”. Book: Dr. Pitcarin’s New Complete Guide To Natural Health For Dogs & Cats.

Dr. Karen Becker: “Extra fiber from veggies helps out the intestinal function of our sedentary pets and the high antioxidant levels found in vegetables and fruits are beneficial for detoxification processes, rebuilding and healing. Fruits and vegetables provide additional antioxidants to help the body deal with the inevitable toxins our pets encounter”. Book: Real Food For Healthy Dogs & Cats

Steve Brown: “We believe one of the reasons proper raw diets with vegetables and fruits often correct many different health problems with dog’s is that the dog evolved to use natural forms of vitamins, minerals and other micronutrients.” Books: Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet, See Spot Live Longer.

Moms


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Thanks moms,
She is correct, and there are plenty of basic guide lines to go off, that INCLUDE veggies. I know that they are not needed, but if I can get something that's good for them, then I have no prob adding it to the mix. This batch is getting close to being gone, when I make the next one I'll be sure to get rid of the broccoli. But I would still like to add something else, if leafy is good then i can use lettuce. 

Also, I knew about grapes and raisins, but thanks. 


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