# Aggression and Protection



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

For purposes of this discussion I'd like _protection_ to mean something above and beyond alarm barking and looking scary. _For this discussion_ I'd like to limit "protection" to the willingness to actively engage a bad guy. Let's leave out the training aspect since we know that some dogs, as a function of genetics, are more likely to engage an intruder while other dogs are more likely to show him the silver. If Joan Q Petowner wants a dog who is genetically likely to stand his ground and defend her, are their other, peripheral aspects of aggression and thresholds that she needs to consider as well? 

I think that in the popular mindset, protection=good and aggression=bad, but our breed of choice has a breed standard that calls for both. Are they two sides of the same coin? Can a completely non-aggressive dog be truly protective? When someone says they want a dog that will protect the family, are there side issues of aggression that need to be considered? 

Basically I'm looking to discuss aggression thresholds and aggression levels as they relate to the level of protection a pet owner wants (or thinks he wants). 



Does any of this have to do with aloofness? Or friendliness/aggression towards other dogs?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I have a question for you before I give you my completely non-expert answer

Willing to engage or protect....do you require a bite, or contact, or just a dog making it very clear they don't have a problem going that route?

ETA, what's show him the silver?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Excellent topic. For me it is all about temperament and how the different elements of temperament stack up in that particular dog. When you have the desired mixture of prey, defense, nerve and social attributes then chances are high that the agressive response will also be the desired one.

If the temperament mixture is off then chances are high that the aggressive response, if any, will be the undesired one. The kind that could harm a friend/family member and not an intruder


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

mysweetkaos said:


> ETA, what's show him the silver?


Show the bad guy where the silver/money/valuables are hidden.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Are they two sides of the same coin? Can a completely non-aggressive dog be truly protective? When someone says they want a dog that will protect the family, are there side issues of aggression that need to be considered?
> 
> Does any of this have to do with aloofness? Or friendliness/aggression towards other dogs?


Yes, I think they are two sides of the same coin. No, I do not think a dog that is 100% non-aggressive will be truly protective - although if backed into a corner, they may bite out of fear. Yes, I believe that if someone says they want a dog to protect the family, they need to be aware of what other things might come with that (aka stupid related teenager thought it was funny to break in and "scare" you - dog bites him).

Hm, I'm not sure what I think about that. I say no, nothing to do with other dogs - unless you're looking for family protection against other dogs - which is weird. I don't know what I think about aloof vs not aloof. Ike is one of the friendliest dogs I've ever met (annoyingly so at times) and he has no problems engaging in sport work (I realize that's not the same). Kastle is aloof, I believe he will be good in sport work as well so *shrug* 

I agree with Packen, the balance is the key.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Show the bad guy where the silver/money/valuables are hidden.


OK now I feel dumb. I was thinking in terms of "silver hair" , ie Kaos' bitch stripe has a silver hue, so I thought you were implying they would run away. Hence showing their back fur.

As to the OP. I can answer based on what I got from your question, which as you saw above...well let's just hope this answer is more relevant.:crazy:

Kaos has on two occasions I can think of engaged. Never bit, which is why I asked earlier what you meant by engage. The main time I'm thinking of happened shortly after we transferred to StL. A friend of my husbands had never met Kaos. He was supposed to meet my husband at our house after work to help him move some items. We had known this friend for a long time, but never lived close so that is why he hadn't met K. Anyway he got here before my husband did and opened the front door to let himself in (I was in the kitchen on other side of house). Kaos heard the door, jumped up and left kitchen, ran to the front door. Seeing someone he had never seen, he started barking and moving toward him. He continued to move in, jumping up, body bumping him if you will, barking and pushing the man backwards until he went out the door. Now our friend is not a small man 6'2 about 240. Our friend said that Kaos kept opening his mouth and making contact with his arm, but not biting down, he did state that he felt had he not complied and moved backwards and out the door, he could say without a doubt he would've been bit.

Long story short, that's my definition of willing to engage.....now that I've rambled on with my thought, back to your question.
Kaos is very aloof. He is not a fan of people he doesn't know or barely knows touching him. He will tolerate it if we are out somewhere and I ask him to sit for pet. However he could live without it. When we have company, unless it is regulars, he is at my feet (no growling, snarling or inappropriateness, just there) until I tell him to go lay down. As to it relating to other animals...I think there is a relation there also. Kaos has a hard time relaxing when the kids or I are around other animals. He is always "watching" to make sure no one oversteps their bounds so to speak. When Sherman was younger, K would have a fit anytime S jumped on me or even bumped into me.

So in my humble, unprofessional opinion you will not willingness to engage out of a dog who doesn't have a bit of an edge, but I'm probably wrong

So I hope that was the info you were looking for.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I love this question...I believe that a well bred, well socialized well trained dog will protect its owner...does that include a bite??? If need be, I believe that the dgo will step forward, show a threat, maybe a growl, maybe an all out attack BUT It will not back up, it will not need to be cornered to react..the dog should step forward, not leap in and out and around but go forward meaningfully.. 

Well socialized means the dog is able to recognize the difference of someone jumping out and going boo and a real threat. The teenage family member sneaking in or out, the kid wearing a costume... They rad an actual threat and the actual reaction of the owner. The obedience helps build the bond and put control in the owner's hands, if the owner is attacked and the lead dropped the dog will not go tearing off, he will remain and guard. WEll bred means not fearful of sound, movement, people. But a stable dog with good health and parents with similar good stable temperment. 

This is my idea, protection is NOT just aggresion nor reaction, but a thinking response to certain set of stimuli.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know how to answer because I believe protection=good and aggression=good. How can you have protection, the willingness to engage and STAY in the fight, without aggression? Or are we just avoiding the word aggression because all the happy all-breed pet behaviorists say it is "bad"? I want aggression in my dogs but only at appropriate thresholds. For me that means the dog responds to a direct threat against him or me with or without my cue. I consider that to be a medium to high threshold for a GSD because I do not like my dogs reacting to things that I do not find threatening, like my husband's man-friends walking in my front door, my dad coming in unexpectedly, my friends coming up our driveway. Just because people are a stranger to my dog does not mean it's a free-for-all as far as protecting the territory and those in it. If there's a direct threat like a man comes charging up the driveway yelling or someone hits me and I scream, by all means the dog may react without deferring to me first. In training I never send my dogs to bite a passive person. Sometimes I will ask them to alert to a passive person but they only bite when threatened first and that's how I personally like it. Some people don't want that at all, some are happy with dogs that have a lower threshold. I personally don't care I'm just describing what I'm willing to live with, not just my "ideal GSD".


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Liesje, I agree, that is much what I was saying, buy well bred, socialize and train...tehn you can't go wrong...aggression is often fear response, and that is often uncontrolled and in inappropriate situations.. That is why everyone fears the word aggressive. A true dog should show none of it because he is under control, nOT because he doesn't have it..I know all dogs have some aggressive and I socialize so they know what is a threat and what isn't, then I train a behavior and response, and then I am happy. BUT gotta buy from good lines and they are in all lines, just need to trust the breeder and their goals and strengths.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Hmmmm. . . I don't think I'm asking this question very well. 

. . . John Q. Dogbuyer is looking for a protective/aggressive dog, going to a breeder that breeds protective/aggressive dogs. Are there things he/she needs to be aware of in other aspects of life? Are the thresholds, nerve, etc right all the time if the dog is from a good responsible breeder? If the nerves and thresholds don't align right, how might that manifest? What things could go wrong that Mr./Mrs. Dogbuyer needs to consider? What needs to be taken into account that might not need to be taken into account if someone is buying from someone who breeds more pet-type "family friendly, non-aggressive" GSDs? 

Or is there no difference?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't know how to answer because I believe protection=good and aggression=good. How can you have protection, the willingness to engage and STAY in the fight, without aggression? Or are we just avoiding the word aggression because all the happy all-breed pet behaviorists say it is "bad"? I want aggression in my dogs but only at appropriate thresholds. For me that means the dog responds to a direct threat against him or me with or without my cue. I consider that to be a medium to high threshold for a GSD because I do not like my dogs reacting to things that I do not find threatening, like my husband's man-friends walking in my front door, my dad coming in unexpectedly, my friends coming up our driveway. Just because people are a stranger to my dog does not mean it's a free-for-all as far as protecting the territory and those in it. If there's a direct threat like a man comes charging up the driveway yelling or someone hits me and I scream, by all means the dog may react without deferring to me first. In training I never send my dogs to bite a passive person. Sometimes I will ask them to alert to a passive person but they only bite when threatened first and that's how I personally like it. Some people don't want that at all, some are happy with dogs that have a lower threshold. I personally don't care I'm just describing what I'm willing to live with, not just my "ideal GSD".



That would have pretty much been my exact reply too. I would never send my dog out to bite a non-threatening person and would never expect him to do so on his own, but alerting to someone knocking at the door unexpectedly is obviously what I am looking for as far as being protective goes. I would want aggression from him in the case of my/his safety being threatened.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Hmmmm. . . I don't think I'm asking this question very well.
> 
> . . . John Q. Dogbuyer is looking for a protective/aggressive dog, going to a breeder that breeds protective/aggressive dogs. Are there things he/she needs to be aware of in other aspects of life? Are the thresholds, nerve, etc right all the time if the dog is from a good responsible breeder? If the nerves and thresholds don't align right, how might that manifest? What things could go wrong that Mr./Mrs. Dogbuyer needs to consider? What needs to be taken into account that might not need to be taken into account if someone is buying from someone who breeds more pet-type "family friendly, non-aggressive" GSDs?
> 
> Or is there no difference?


I think there's genetics, then there's environment. 
How I've perceived it in the past is, we want to go overboard socializing these dogs as they are growing, so they don't become overly protective or protective against the wrong things/people. 

A good genetic background, that is, the right nerves, have to be bred in. The rest is up to us to teach the pup who is a bad guy and who isn't.
For Joan Q Petowner, all she really wants is a dog to stand there and bark and act mean. I don't know as people who get GSDs to "protect them", actually realize what that would entail.
So the nerves would have to be there or (lacking training) that dog is going to be a bite risk, either way, because nobody taught him to properly distinguish who is "good" and who is "bad.

A few other examples, if I may - a Border Collie, who gets bored without the proper training and outlets, will herd the other dogs, cats, kids, you name it.
A Great Pyrenees, without "over socializing" and a "job" of it's own to do, and proper training and supervision, could well take the face off of one if it's kids' playmates.

A GSD, not trained and "over socialized" if you will, will figure everyone who comes to the door is a "bad guy" and take it upon himself to protect the home from the Girl Scouts, the Pastor who stopped by to visit, etc. 
What's worse is some people think that's the correct thing for their dog to be doing. 

Is that what you mean?

PS. how would you know, until the "moment of truth" (someone trying to break in) that the dog "bred for pet only" wasn't going to show his heritage of protection more, even if it wasn't in the distant past?
I think PROTECTION is properly guided AGGRESSION


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

*sigh*

I suck at this. 


We see buzzwords like "natural suspicion," "highly civil," "defense drive," and "natural protection" being thrown around. 

If someone is looking for a dog that will engage, those sound like good things, right?

But is there a downside to those things?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Hmmmm. . . I don't think I'm asking this question very well.
> 
> . . . John Q. Dogbuyer is looking for a protective/aggressive dog, going to a breeder that breeds protective/aggressive dogs. Are there things he/she needs to be aware of in other aspects of life? Are the thresholds, nerve, etc right all the time if the dog is from a good responsible breeder? If the nerves and thresholds don't align right, how might that manifest? What things could go wrong that Mr./Mrs. Dogbuyer needs to consider? What needs to be taken into account that might not need to be taken into account if someone is buying from someone who breeds more pet-type "family friendly, non-aggressive" GSDs?
> 
> Or is there no difference?


I guess what you'll get based on everyone's response is a dog like Kaos:blush:
He is a big love, but I don't think anything we could do would make him accept a person unknown to him just walking in the house w/out knocking. Now if he's met you even once in his 10 yrs he's fine, or if you are unknown and knock. 

I can definetely see where if he were not with us, and not trained and dare I say sometimes "managed" he could be a problem.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Emoore said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I suck at this.
> 
> ...


Probably wrong, but I think the downside is you have a dog who will not allow strangers to let themselves into your house,, without you being there.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I suck at this.
> 
> ...


Yes...if the behaviors and drives aren't channeled properly...?

Are you saying you don't think these dogs with sound nerves would ever be wrongly aggressive...?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

msvette2u said:


> Yes...if the behaviors and drives aren't channeled properly...?
> 
> Are you saying you don't think these dogs with sound nerves would ever be wrongly aggressive...?


I'm saying I don't know. :shrug: I'm wondering if someone decides they want a dog to defend their home and family, so they buy, for example, an old-line DDR/Czech dog billed as being highly civil and protective with a lot of defense drive. . . . are there things that can go wrong? Are there things they need to look out for and watch against? Or does the fact that the dog has stable nerves and good breeding mean they'll automatically be fine? What happens if this dog was bred by someone who breed a nice dog to a nice dog without really understanding the genetics? What can go wrong then?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think training, at that point, and channeling the drive have more to do with it than just genetics. 
That's my very uneducated opinion 
For instance...we have had rescue dogs, always. Who knows who bred them or what the breeder's "goal" was, if any?

But we socialized and trained them, and became their leaders, and other than one very appropriate nip, (guy stuck his arm through our fence) none of our dogs have bitten anyone.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't know if this is what you're getting at but no dog without proper training and socialization should be trusted to "defend the homestead." Especially in today's age of suing over any mistake, your dog is pretty much helpless if it makes the decision to bite the wrong person.

I don't think you can buy a dog from an amazing breeder, put it out in your back yard, and expect it to know what an intruder is and what a helpless kid is. If your goal is to keep everyone out, it will do that, but if you just want it to get the bad guys, then you're out of luck. My dog is very good at reacting to our energy, when someone comes in, he waits and as soon as he realizes we aren't worried, he goes to greet the person. We've never had someone we didn't know come in, but if they did, there is no doubt in my mind (due to our reaction) our dog would not react in a friendly way. At the same time, if someone came through the door that he didn't know, and we weren't home, he would react in a bad way no matter what their purpose is, but if he knows the person, I'm sure he would be wagging his tail and saying hello.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Genetics are very important, but training is crucial for properly directing those drives. Just because a dog has good balanced drives doesn't mean he can be trusted to properly understand situations where he is required to defend and distingush between friend/foe. Good drives don't mean anything without training. I think it's an unrealistic expectation to assume that a dog can be trusted to protect without training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Emoore said:


> I'm wondering if someone decides they want a dog to defend their home and family, so they buy, for example, an old-line DDR/Czech dog billed as being highly civil and protective with a lot of defense drive. . . . are there things that can go wrong? Are there things they need to look out for and watch against? Or does the fact that the dog has stable nerves and good breeding mean they'll automatically be fine? What happens if this dog was bred by someone who breed a nice dog to a nice dog without really understanding the genetics? What can go wrong then?


Good questions.....as someone who tends to analyze every detail of every decision and then stick with my decision once I make it, I just can't fathom getting a breed like a GSD and not being informed about these traits or understand how to deal with them and appreciate them. I guess in my mind it's the buyer's responsibility to understand the breed and understand what it is they really want if they are going to be picky. 

I don't think any dog is automatically fine but for me it's more about the relationship, trust, respect...being a true leader (not a dictator) of my dogs. That's above and beyond arguing the importance of training vs. socialization vs. nature/genetics. If you want to own a GSD that acts like a GSD you have to be prepared to handle one and know how to get the best out of your relationship with your dog.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

trudy said:


> Well socialized means the dog is able to recognize the difference of someone jumping out and going boo and a real threat.


I don't get how a dog would be able to tell the difference between someone pretending to be threatening and someone who is a "real" threat.

Say you have a person pretending to fight versus real fighting the pretending can look very real I would think and I don't think a dog could tell the difference. Also say on Halloween someone jumps out and says boo vs. someone jumping out from an ally and telling you to hand over your wallet. You could say that the real situations would have some sort of tension or something that the dog picks up on but every situation is different and I don't think a dog is necessarily able to differentiate. I would think that a dog who would react to the above real situations would also react to similar situations that are not necessarily a threat.

This is why I think the training is so important if you have a dog that will react appropriately to a threat through training you can make it more likely that they would act appropriately to certain cues. Say you have an alert word and a threat often follows that word because you have practised this in training. If in real life you felt uncomfortable by someone and you cued your dog your dog would then be more likely to respond because it is now expecting to be threatened.

My dog has a high threshold he does not fell threatened by much. I have had people jump at him and say "boo" or kids jump out and scream not even realizing that we were walking by. Also weird homeless people who walk/act weird and are muttering. All things that I do not consider threatening but I know a lot of dogs who would respond differently in these situations and I know lots of people who like it when there dogs react to weird people even though to me this is harmless. My dog in training does respond to the threat quite seriously. So he has that side to him but because of his threshold I doubt if he would act accordingly unless he was trained. I personally am happy that he is a sport dog I have no desire for him to be a protection dog.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Clyde said:


> I don't get how a dog would be able to tell the difference between someone pretending to be threatening and someone who is a "real" threat.


Isn't the entire sport of Schutzhund built on attacking someone who is only pretending to be a threat? It's not like the decoy is going to rape and murder you if your dog isn't up to snuff.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

And the dog doesn't understand suing and different cultures either. Here, I expect my dog to NOT let them in anyone, even if he has met that person once or twice (the neighbors who have taken care of him since he was a pup and friends who come often and sometimes stay are an exception, of course). And if the stupid related teenager who thought it was funny to break in and "scare" me get bitten, it will result in nothing but a big, big life lesson for him. I have a fence and the gate is closed so if a Jehovah Witness wants to test his fate, it is his problem. And 30% of burglaries are made by kids under 16, so trespassing is trespassing and not allowed, point. 

Up there you have a gun to protect your dog because if he bites, even in his home, he will be put to sleep. Down here I will be in jail if I shoot someone even in my property unless I prove my life was in immediate danger and no other mean of defense was possible, while the dog will be in the newspapers as the town hero.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Clyde said:


> My dog has a high threshold he does not fell threatened by much. I have had people jump at him and say "boo" or kids jump out and scream not even realizing that we were walking by. Also weird homeless people who walk/act weird and are muttering. All things that I do not consider threatening but I know a lot of dogs who would respond differently in these situations and I know lots of people who like it when there dogs react to weird people even though to me this is harmless.


I think that the threshold of the human has a lot to do too. I consider myself a "high threshold" person and few things scares me (beside the dentist). I think because of that all the dogs I've owned have an higher threshold too, even the Border Collie. It is amazing how much this animals fed on our energy!

If someone is mocking a threat and jumps in front of you and you are genuinely scared, why would it be fair to ask the dog to recognize the joke from a real threat?


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Hmmmm. . . I don't think I'm asking this question very well.
> 
> . . . John Q. Dogbuyer is looking for a protective/aggressive dog, going to a breeder that breeds protective/aggressive dogs. Are there things he/she needs to be aware of in other aspects of life? Are the thresholds, nerve, etc right all the time if the dog is from a good responsible breeder? If the nerves and thresholds don't align right, how might that manifest? What things could go wrong that Mr./Mrs. Dogbuyer needs to consider? What needs to be taken into account that might not need to be taken into account if someone is buying from someone who breeds more pet-type "family friendly, non-aggressive" GSDs?
> 
> Or is there no difference?


No getting a dog from a responsible breeder does not mean that the puppies would have the proper temperament. You cannot guarantee a uniform litter. Of course proven parents will make it more likely you will get what you are expecting but still you could breed 2 nice dogs together and not get the same traits in the offspring.



Emoore said:


> I'm saying I don't know. :shrug: I'm wondering if someone decides they want a dog to defend their home and family, so they buy, for example, an old-line DDR/Czech dog billed as being highly civil and protective with a lot of defense drive. . . . are there things that can go wrong? Are there things they need to look out for and watch against? Or does the fact that the dog has stable nerves and good breeding mean they'll automatically be fine? What happens if this dog was bred by someone who breed a nice dog to a nice dog without really understanding the genetics? What can go wrong then?


If someone wanted a dog just to protect the home those traits seem like a bad choice to me. Sounds like a dog that would need a lot of control. I would think a dog described like that would be highly suspicious. I don't like dogs who are suspicious of everything to me that would be bad nerves even if it is not fear based. Might not be the appropriate use of the word nerves but hope you know what I mean.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Catu said:


> I think that the threshold of the human has a lot to do too. I consider myself a "high threshold" person and few things scares me (beside the dentist). I think because of that all the dogs I've owned have an higher threshold too, even the Border Collie. It is amazing how much this animals fed on our energy!
> 
> If someone is mocking a threat and jumps in front of you and you are genuinely scared, why would it be fair to ask the dog to recognize the joke from a real threat?


Yeah I agree with that. I would say I am a high threshold person also.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's not just about the movements either but the overall presence of the person. That is why there are good helpers/decoys and bad ones. That is why sometimes my dog will stiffen toward a person 50 feet away and pay no attention to a friend of mine (who's a stranger to the dog) coming through my front door.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Liesje said:


> I don't think any dog is automatically fine but for me it's more about the relationship, trust, respect...being a true leader (not a dictator) of my dogs. That's above and beyond arguing the importance of training vs. socialization vs. nature/genetics. If you want to own a GSD that acts like a GSD you have to be prepared to handle one and know how to get the best out of your relationship with your dog.


Excellent point and really something that I do not see brought up often enough. Many times when I mention anything along those lines I get people assuming I alpha roll my dog and subscribe to some sort of pack dominance theory. Maybe the overall concept is similar (I've never actually had the theory explained, so who knows) but the methodology and mindset is different and I believe that makes all the difference.

At one point I struggled a great deal with controlling my own dog between his reactivity, high prey drive, low thresholds, handler hardness, and strong will. He had his own ideas and come **** or high water he wanted to act on them. He had a prong collar on before he was old enough (in my opinion) for it to be effective and the way I implemented the tool in training made it even more useless. Eventually, the only reason I had it was for physical control. I was not having a good time trying to deal with each individual behavior he exhibited.

I'm not sure when, why, or how exactly but somewhere down the line I eventually started actually trying to _know _my dog. "Know thyself... and know your dog", that's how the saying goes, right? 

I'm not saying building a good relationship and creating a mutual trust and respect is the magical cure all for behavioral problems, but for us, once we were able to establish that mindset, the more specific behaviors followed. It is not about physical control but rather communication and understanding. Even with the prong collar, if he really wanted to go after a cat, I'd be fighting a losing battle. Now he is regularly walked off leash, and only uses a cloth collar and a firm but simple "leave it" will do for the high prey drive, low threshold dog. My dog certainly does not walk well off leash for me, allow manhandling from me, and listen to commands given by me because he "likes me better" (as many insist is the sole reason)...



Catu said:


> I think that the threshold of the human has a lot to do too. I consider myself a "high threshold" person and few things scares me (beside the dentist). I think because of that all the dogs I've owned have an higher threshold too, even the Border Collie. It is amazing how much this animals fed on our energy!


I agree with this but my dog is one of the exceptions... maybe because my own threshold is so ridiculously low, even _he _thinks I am ridiculous :blush:

No, in all seriousness, he is a more handler hard dog that often thinks and acts independently of me. There is that mutual respect and understanding in our relationship, but for a German Shepherd, even a younger one, he is more self possessed. If I spook a little, if I accidentally hurt myself, or if I am upset usually I just get a flick of an ear and a look from him. He is insensitive to a lot of personal emotions past anger, happiness, and pent up fear/anxiety. 

It is difficult to explain. He is a very good dog, all of his reactions (or lack thereof) to my own negative emotions are very appropriate and from a realistic point of view, possibly desired. He is just not typically emotionally "invested" unless the emotions are positive. 

For example, every 4th of July there is a wildly popular fireworks display and event in the neighborhood park right across the street. And every year, there are families camped out on their front yards, setting fireworks and all sorts of explosives in the middle of the street and on the sidewalk. Now me, I'm a very "low threshold" person, I scare easily and when I get scared I am not subtle about it. Every one of the three 4th of July's we have had, I would be literally jumping up every two minutes or so because of the fireworks and firecrackers overhead and around me. And to be honest, I get scared when I see fireworks directly overhead, too, so I am ducking my head like an idiot. My dog, though, is heeling next to me completely unfazed. Maybe he'll crane his neck over to see the bright light next to him, or maybe he'll wag his tail and lean a bit towards a child he wants to greet, but he is completely unperturbed. 

Oddly enough, however...



Catu said:


> If someone is mocking a threat and jumps in front of you and you are genuinely scared, why would it be fair to ask the dog to recognize the joke from a real threat?


when I am genuinely scared (as opposed to extremely startled/surprised/unnerved) by a mocking threat, he will react very defensively, and I find that acceptable _because _1) I do not deem such a reaction inappropriate and 2) he quiets down and backs off when I tell him "enough" or "settle". As long as I have control over the situation and the reaction was not unwarranted, I will not fault my dog. 

As I just said, I am easily scared. We live in a good suburban neighborhood where we often leave the doors unlocked, but next to the area, right across from the open fields, are apartment complexes where all the teenage boys and younger adults like to hang around to smoke. At night some of them think it a good game to hide behind bushes and jump out at people... they are harmless (and I am acquainted with a few of them) but the first times scared me to death and back, and my dog jumped into a highly defensive reactive mode. When I recovered and asked him to back down he did, even quietly watched me have a few words with the idiots who tried to stunt, and it never happened again. 

Perhaps he is always more likely to react when there is a visible, perceivable threat.

Those previous incidents were when he was a few months past 2 years old. Even in the last year, however, his thresholds for defense have gone higher and improved. A week and a half ago we were out at night and crouched on one side of the bushes distracted - might have been fixing his collar? I've forgotten already - and a large man with a cap walked literally right into us. My dog simply let out two loud, steady barks at the man, no hackles or tail raised, however, and immediately quieted down and ignored him when I said it was okay, and we continued walking without another glance. That, in my opinion, was more an alert from my dog rather than an actual defensive reaction, and I was happy to see that.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Clyde said:


> I don't get how a dog would be able to tell the difference between someone pretending to be threatening and someone who is a "real" threat.



My dog can absolutely tell the difference between someone I am comfortable with (helper) and someone I am genuinely afraid of. Schutzhund is mostly just a game for him. _The difference is that I am not afraid during training._ It's fun! I'd rather not have to feel like I'm going to be murdered every time we go to training anyways..When I am actually terrified if someone, he knows. He knows the cue word for guard and for bite, and I'm sure if he needed me to cue him off in an uncomfortable situation, he'd know exactly what to do and how to react.

My dog can tell the difference between people knocking at the front door downstairs just by the way that they knock. I'm more than willing to bet that he can sense a real threat when he sees one.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Catu said:


> I think that the threshold of the human has a lot to do too. I consider myself a "high threshold" person and few things scares me (beside the dentist). I think because of that all the dogs I've owned have an higher threshold too, even the Border Collie. It is amazing how much this animals fed on our energy!
> 
> If someone is mocking a threat and jumps in front of you and you are genuinely scared, why would it be fair to ask the dog to recognize the joke from a real threat?


 
I agree completely with that. It is amazing the difference in Kaos' reactions based on whether my husband is home or not. I have had life experiences that make me "edgy" for example when the door opens when I am home alone and not expecting anyone. I am sure in the example I put earlier, Kaos sensed my uneasiness. We have had the same thing happen for example when my husband is home and Kaos will just walk calmy to the door with my husband and not mind if it is someone unknown to him....hence feeding off my husbands overly calm behavior.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A lot of you are discussing how your dog is when you are around...I think the OP might've been questioning how your dog would react by itself. I think, no matter the dog, without training, everyone that comes in its home is a threat. Now, a good tempered dog will tell that person to leave, while a poor tempered one might flee the situation (if not trained). I don't think there is a dog in this world that can descipher *BY ITSELF* what is a friend and what is an enemy if it has never met the person.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Emoore said:


> Isn't the entire sport of Schutzhund built on attacking someone who is only pretending to be a threat? It's not like the decoy is going to rape and murder you if your dog isn't up to snuff.


 
Somehow, people seem to have forgotten, ( or maybe never knew it), that SchH protection is about more than whether a dog has "aggression" or not. The GSD was intended to be a dog with fight drive and a protective instinct. However, along with that, ( and the point of SchH ), was to determine if all the other characteristics that a GSD was intended to possess, were present in the dogs. That being nerves, willingness to work with and obey the handler etc. Also, SchH has nothing to do with "attacking" someone. It is about protection, which mostly requires an attack on the handler or on the dog by the bad guy. There is only one exercise, the escape, where this is not the case but where it is clear that the handler was detaining the bad guy and the dog was placed in a position to guard him.

Nerves are what keeps a dog from being so rattled by something, they react too quickly. The nerves also give the dog the ability to be able to hear their handler and comply in situations of high stress. Therefore, if someone came out of a bush, pretending to attack, the dogs with the better nerves would be able to either restrain themselves, meaning they would use their bark to control the situation first, or they could be easily called back to their handler. I have had similar things happen where, while walking along a river with my old dog Vandal, a man came out of he brush right at us. Vandal did not bite him but he did perform one very impressive hold and bark . I suppose if that man had kept coming, he would have bitten him and he would have been justified. The man held still and Vandal held him there until I walked about 300 feet to my car. I then called him and he came to me. He was quite a good GSD however and many of the dogs now are not like he was. 
One of my neighbors lost his mind and decided to just walk in my front door one night without knocking. Vandal's great grandson pinned him up against the living room wall but did not bite him. He came back to me when I called him. It was not the training as much as who those dogs were genetically. This is something that people have lost sight of. That being that the genetics of the dog is where the control lies, not in simply the dog's training. 

I seriously doubt dogs with lesser temperament and nerves would engage someone anyway. So, if you have a weak dog, you have no fear of a bite when someone comes at you. That dog will run and leave you to deal with it. The good dogs will escalate as needed and can "think" in these situations.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Vandal said:


> Somehow, people seem to have forgotten, ( or maybe never knew it), that SchH protection is about more than whether a dog has "aggression" or not. The GSD was intended to be a dog with fight drive and a protective instinct.


OK, moving past my ill-considered joke about Schutzhund, what you wrote is really the meat of what I'm trying to discuss. The GSD was intended to be a dog with fight drive and protective instinct. In the dogs that have that, perhaps at a bit higher level than other dogs, how does that relate to aggression, and how does that fit into today's world for today's dog owner?

I had posted something earlier about a bloodline cross that I thought looked good, but Cliff pointed out that the dogs could be very civil and that nerves could be an issue-- not an issue in avoidance and fearfulness, but a nerve issue with being _too quick_ to engage.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> My dog can absolutely tell the difference between someone I am comfortable with (helper) and someone I am genuinely afraid of. Schutzhund is mostly just a game for him. _The difference is that I am not afraid during training._ It's fun! I'd rather not have to feel like I'm going to be murdered every time we go to training anyways..When I am actually terrified if someone, he knows. He knows the cue word for guard and for bite, and I'm sure if he needed me to cue him off in an uncomfortable situation, he'd know exactly what to do and how to react.
> 
> My dog can tell the difference between people knocking at the front door downstairs just by the way that they knock. I'm more than willing to bet that he can sense a real threat when he sees one.


I think also in some instances we are talking of a person being threatened vs. the dog itself being threatened. In schutzhund the training is directing the "threat" at the dog. Not at a person that the dog is supposed to protect. To me it is more about whether the dog feels threatened or not and not about what I feel. Of course some dogs are more handler sensitive then others.

In real life situations it makes more sense that the human is going to be threatened the dog could be ignored. So I don't think we can assume that just because a dog feels threatened and will act appropriately that it will act appropriately if the human it is with is threatened. Unless the dog is trained you can't guarantee anything and Schutzhund is not personal protection training.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Unless the dog is trained you can't guarantee anything and Schutzhund is not personal protection training.


Once again, you can't train this ability into the dogs, they are born with it. Most have not owned a really good GSD, so, they think the training is most of it. It isn't.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

As for today's dog owners. 80% of people who own GSDs, shouldn't. If you do not have the ability to control your own emotions, you should get a house plant.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

" I have had similar things happen where, while walking along a river with my old dog Vandal, a man came out of he brush right at us. Vandal did not bite him but he did perform one very impressive hold and bark . I suppose if that man had kept coming, he would have bitten him and he would have been justified. The man held still and Vandal held him there until I walked about 300 feet to my car. I then called him and he came to me. He was quite a good GSD however and many of the dogs now are not like he was. 
 "

I just don't get what was threatening about this situation. Someone was walking toward you near a river why would someone who was probably trying to walk past you be considered a threat.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Vandal said:


> As for today's dog owners. 80% of people who own GSDs, shouldn't. If you do not have the ability to control your own emotions, you should get a house plant.


OK, so when someone comes in looking to buy their first GSD, and the husband travels a lot and he wants a dog he can trust to protect the wife and kids, and he hangs around and hears words like "protective instinct" and "fight drive" and "defense drive" . . . . he thinks those are all good things. I'll get me one of those Czech boarder (sic) patrol dogs because they're protective and will protect my wife and kids from a bad guy. . . .

what do we tell him? 

Or when somebody wants a big, block-headed, heavy-boned dark colored dog and DDR/Czech is the new buzzword and I heard those dogs were very protective so I think I want one of them . . . . 

what do we tell them?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I just don't get what was threatening about this situation. Someone was walking toward you near a river why would someone who was probably trying to walk past you be considered a threat.





> a man came out of he brush right at us


This was not a normal person and it was not simply a case of "walking past us". 

BTW, the neighbor was not a threat, just stupid. My point was, the dog reacted appropriately.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Vandal said:


> Once again, you can't train this ability into the dogs, they are born with it. Most have not owned a really good GSD, so, they think the training is most of it. It isn't.


I think every dog is a combination of it genetics, training, socialization, environment etc. so how can you really say that what training was done has nothing to do with it and it is all genetics. Two animals with the same genetics with different upbringing would absolutely have different behaviour.

Also if these situations don't come up how do you really know how your dog will react. I have personally never been in anything like these described threatening situations.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Clyde said:


> I think also in some instances we are talking of a person being threatened vs. the dog itself being threatened. In schutzhund the training is directing the "threat" at the dog. Not at a person that the dog is supposed to protect. To me it is more about whether the dog feels threatened or not and not about what I feel. Of course some dogs are more handler sensitive then others.
> 
> In real life situations it makes more sense that the human is going to be threatened the dog could be ignored. *So I don't think we can assume that just because a dog feels threatened and will act appropriately that it will act appropriately if the human it is with is threatened. Unless the dog is trained you can't guarantee anything and Schutzhund is not personal protection training.*


I don't really understand what that means at all. I just said that my dog can sense when I am uncomfortable with someone. No, I have never been seriously attacked, so I am unable to say that my dog protected me from an attack, but the way that he reacts when he knows that I am uncomfortable with someone clearly goes to say that he can tell the difference between when I am o.k. with someone and when I'm not.

When I came home one day and saw someone walking into my bedroom at the end of the hall, I told my dog to "revier". He backed the man into the corner, and ended up doing a bark and hold on my ex-boyfriend as he was trying to steal things from my room when he broke into my apartment. He was raised with my ex, but could sense that I was scared and uncomfortable and reacted accordingly. 

That's the closest I've ever gotten to "threatened" and my dog did exactly what I asked him to do. But sheesh, he's only Schutzhund trained...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Also if these situations don't come up how do you really know how your dog will react. I have personally never been in anything like these described threatening situations.


I added something to my last post about my neighbor. He was not a threat. The dog was not trained to do what he did. He reacted appropriately, which was because of his genetics. He did not bite my neighbor, scared the bejesus out of him but he was certainly justified in doing that. 

I can't tell the normal, everyday, dog owner how to determine that. I know because I have trained dogs in protection for 35 years. You learn to recognize the dogs who will protect, it is quite clear to me, even when I work them in SchH. The judges in SchH USED TO look for this protective instinct in the dogs. There was, ( and still is in the breed survey), an attack on the handler and to say that all the attacks are on the dog, is not quite correct. SchH certainly is not all about defense reactions, the dog would never pass.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I added something to my last post about my neighbor. He was not a threat. The dog was not trained to do what he did. He reacted appropriately, which was because of his genetics. He did not bite my neighbor, scared the bejesus out of him but he was certainly justified in doing that.
> 
> I can't tell the normal, everyday, dog owner how to determine that. I know because I have trained dogs in protection for 35 years. You learn to recognize the dogs who will protect, it is quite clear to me, even when I work them in SchH. The judges in SchH USED TO look for this protective instinct in the dogs. There was, ( and still is in the breed survey), an attack on the handler and to say that all the attacks are on the dog, is not quite correct. SchH certainly is not all about defense reactions, the dog would never pass.


I just meant that the training is about the helper and the dog then the routine gets put together. The attack on the handler exercise I assume is not trained by first trying to actually attack the handler. I think just because a dog can do a schutzhund routine does not mean it has these natural instincts and proper reactions that we are discussing.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Emoore said:


> Isn't the entire sport of Schutzhund built on attacking someone who is only pretending to be a threat? It's not like the decoy is going to rape and murder you if your dog isn't up to snuff.


This is the main reason Koda and I train in PSA, we have different scenarios and different decoys working the dog. I want to see how far Koda will go to protect and engage.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Having owned several GSD's in my life I agree that it is genetics and that training just brings out or ruins what is already there.

I think a balance of drives is what makes a good dog. In my very limited knowledge GSD's are supposed to have aggression, be confident and courageous, but this does not mean they have a high defense drive . A dog high in defense may fight or flight out of fear and not make a thought out choice.

My Benny is fairly low threshold, moderately high in defense and prey. He is not extreme by any means, but I am glad I got him when I was done raising kids so I could spend the time needed to learn how to bring the best out of him and minimize his weakness. 

Would he protect me? Probably by default if I were near him when he a threat occurred, but mostly he would be acting in defense protecting himself. Then again he might run off, but I doubt any bad guy would take a chance.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I think every dog is a combination of it genetics, training, socialization, environment etc. so how can you really say that what training was done has nothing to do with it and it is all genetics.


I didn't say that, that's how. I said mostly genetics. Like I also said, most people have never owned dogs like what I am talking about. They are born with the insincts and it is up to the handler to be smart enough to direct them and enhance those genetics vs always trying to train everything into the dog. 

You don't train the ability to herd sheep into a dog. They either have that ability or they don't. You don't train a Pointer to point, he does it naturally and you build on that natural ability. Yes, that is training but mostly, people are over training....more often because they have a dog who is missing something but even the people with good dogs, don't seem to be able to stop themselves from interfering all the time.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I think just because a dog can do a schutzhund routine does not mean it has these natural instincts and proper reactions that we are discussing.


And I didn't say that either. I said I have years of experience training dogs but years ago, the way SchH WAS conducted, you could get a darn good idea of what kind of dog it was. Not so much now, so you are correct. I am talking about when I 'train' a dog in SchH protection . I don't do it like most people do.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Emoore said:


> OK, so when someone comes in looking to buy their first GSD, and the husband travels a lot and he wants a dog he can trust to protect the wife and kids, and he hangs around and hears words like "protective instinct" and "fight drive" and "defense drive" . . . . he thinks those are all good things. I'll get me one of those Czech boarder (sic) patrol dogs because they're protective and will protect my wife and kids from a bad guy. . . .
> 
> what do we tell him?


 We tell him to go ahead and get the dog of his life if he's willing to invest into establishing a relationship of mutual trust and respect with his dog. 

I've recently read a book about past border patrol dogs and their handlers (not about Czech), and I was struck by how strong the relationship between the k9 and the handler was. It was not just about training that's for sure. For example, carrying the dog for kilometers during the chase so the dog can rest, or saving the dog from bullets by handler's own body, and the dog did the same for the handler. Do not expect devotion if you have nothing to offer in return.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSD07 said:


> We tell him to go ahead and get the dog of his life if he's willing to invest into establishing a relationship of mutual trust and respect with his dog.
> 
> I've recently read a book about past border patrol dogs and their handlers (not about Czech), and I was struck by how strong the relationship between the k9 and the handler was. It was not just about training that's for sure. For example, carrying the dog for kilometers during the chase so the dog can rest, or saving the dog from bullets by handler's own body, and the dog did the same for the handler. Do not expect devotion if you have nothing to offer in return.



:thumbup::thumbup:


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> We tell him to go ahead and get the dog of his life if he's willing to invest into establishing a relationship of mutual trust and respect with his dog.
> 
> I've recently read a book about past border patrol dogs and their handlers (not about Czech), and I was struck by how strong the relationship between the k9 and the handler was. It was not just about training that's for sure. For example, carrying the dog for kilometers during the chase so the dog can rest, or saving the dog from bullets by handler's own body, and the dog did the same for the handler. Do not expect devotion if you have nothing to offer in return.


Oksana- Your posts are always very insightful! Can you tell me what book that is? I would like to read it!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I've recently read a book about past border patrol dogs and their handlers (not about Czech), and I was struck by how strong the relationship between the k9 and the handler was.


This is also genetic. Mostly a component of social aggression where the bond with the handler and family is so strong, the dog lives to protect them. Unless you are some kind of rat fink, who has no heart, there is no way you cannot return that level of loyalty. This I know from experience.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I get calls fairly recently from people looking for protection dogs. A number of them have experienced recent home invasion robberies. They are frightened and looking for for a way to feel safe. I will always refuse to sell dogs to these people. First, the dog will need a reason to protect them, meaning they will need to establish a bond with the dog. This doesn't happen in one week. The dog must understand the new person and house is theirs to protect before they will. As I said, all of these people are not looking for a dog, they are looking to feel safe. After about a month, the fear fades and they no longer want the dog. 
It is the same with people looking for dogs to protect the wife and kids. The man is not getting a dog, he is getting something else in his mind and these things do not work out for the reasons GSD07 listed above. It has to go both ways.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

GatorDog said:


> My dog can absolutely tell the difference between someone I am comfortable with (helper) and someone I am genuinely afraid of. Schutzhund is mostly just a game for him. _The difference is that I am not afraid during training._ It's fun! I'd rather not have to feel like I'm going to be murdered every time we go to training anyways..When I am actually terrified if someone, he knows. He knows the cue word for guard and for bite, and I'm sure if he needed me to cue him off in an uncomfortable situation, he'd know exactly what to do and how to react.


In a protection training session I'm not standing there at the end of the line saying..._ "Yeah, go play with the bouncing guy in front of you, or with the giant tug toy on its arm.. or whatever..." _I'm having fun along with the dog, but I'm not_ "That's my pretty puppy! Good pup! Yupiiii!!_" jumping in a happy, silly voice to make the dog feel comfortable. I think I did that until about 14 weeks old.

I'm having fun, a lot of fun! but my energy comes from the excitement of the fight I share with the dog. I'll be there supporting, but I'll be more like _"That's my big wolf! My marine, my Rambo! RIP THAT F***** ARM OUT OF ITS SOCKET!!!!"_ I want my pup feeling like Chuck Norris and the only reason why we let the helper to live if because it's the only one we have. I'm not going to be hurt, but it is more than a tug game and I want my dog feeling it from me, feeling the tension in my muscles, in my eyes, in my voice.

In this thread I get the sense that all aggression and all protection come from a threat and in the Schutzhund field and the real world that is not true, without meaning it has to be only a game for the dog. Maybe I am too fight driven myself, but... have you never been in a situation where you are pissed off and you think "please, give me a reason to get your butt out of here or to call the police"? when you are full of adrenalin but when everything ends it... it feels nice! In my own example from above, my dog doesn't need to feel threatened by the Jehovah Witness, he only needs to feel empowered by the feeling he is protecting his territory and his pack and all the aggression can come from there.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSD07 said:


> Do not expect devotion if you have nothing to offer in return.


So, so SO true!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

VonKromeHaus said:


> Can you tell me what book that is? I would like to read it!


 Hi Courtney, thank you. Unfortunately, the book is in Russian. I think you would enjoy it. A famous border patrol guard put together his memories about the period of his life spent protecting the far eastern border of Russia in the 30s.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

That stinks! I would like it but I can't read russian or german or etc. lol


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I didn't say that, that's how. I said mostly genetics. Like I also said, most people have never owned dogs like what I am talking about. They are born with the insincts and it is up to the handler to be smart enough to direct them and enhance those genetics vs always trying to train everything into the dog.
> 
> You don't train the ability to herd sheep into a dog. They either have that ability or they don't. You don't train a Pointer to point, he does it naturally and you build on that natural ability. Yes, that is training but mostly, people are over training....more often because they have a dog who is missing something but even the people with good dogs, don't seem to be able to stop themselves from interfering all the time.


I don't think training should create something that isn't there it more just bringing out the reaction in the dog using the helper. A lot of people are doing this for sport so if the dog is missing something then yes they will use the training to find another way to create the "picture" that they were looking for. Which I am fine with for a competition dog but a breeder needs to know the difference and be honest about what was training and what was in the dog naturally. 



Vandal said:


> And I didn't say that either. I said I have years of experience training dogs but years ago, the way SchH WAS conducted, you could get a darn good idea of what kind of dog it was. Not so much now, so you are correct. I am talking about when I 'train' a dog in SchH protection . I don't do it like most people do.


I didn't think that you thought about schutzhund like that but I think many people do it just happened to fall into our conversation. I would be interested to hear more about how you train schutzhund. Many people are training for the competition and have some very extreme dogs. I like a more balanced dog I think some dogs are so over the top they don't even think just react and not in a good way. 



Vandal said:


> This is also genetic. Mostly a component of social aggression where the bond with the handler and family is so strong, the dog lives to protect them. Unless you are some kind of rat fink, who has no heart, there is no way you cannot return that level of loyalty. This I know from experience.


I am glad you mentioned social aggression it had kind of slipped my mind. I think it is often forgotten about but of course vital to this conversation. Social aggression is something that I think most people forget to consider when looking for a dog. When I got my dog it was a bit spur of the moment so all the things that I am thinking about now for my next dog did not come up. But I will say social aggression did not cross my mind at all and also I do not notice it being mentioned much on webpages or articles discussing working dogs. I do not know how common it is to be taken into consideration for a breeding program or if it has been forgotten about by most. 

I just want to clarify why I do not believe it possible for a dog to be able to discern a real threat vs. a threatening action that is not actually a threat and act appropriately. This is because I am an extremely literal thinker and for a dog to always act appropriately it would have to be perfect, never making a mistake and I do not believe a living creature human or dog can be perfect. So it makes no sense that a dog can tell the difference between a real vs. fake threat ( because to me if you can't do it 100% of the time then you can't do it). Hope that made sense and though I would never be able to change my mind about that I do agree with most of the things that you say.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

social aggression and protection are part of each other 


natural civil aggression is what the op wants and its not uncommon as pple think, a well bred dog with solid nerves that has this type of aggression should be safe as long as no one pisses it off JMHO


Honestly it isnt hard to get a good civil dog to bite a man the dog has it in him u can easily get them to bite a person with no equipment much easier than you think. The hard part is controlling that aggession. Outing it.


A lot of these dogs can be scary though if they cant get at the person they might tanke a chunk out of you be careful lol Again JMHO


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

other downsides i have seen can be the dog is more reactive can be over protective of you or other family members, if you have kids specially it can be scary the dog might not let them play with strangers not a good mix.

Friends comming in and out family members visisting, people approaching your dogs crate your dog will scare the crap out of them when they get nosey or if you get careless, accidents can happen (someone can get bitten) 


everyone needs to be trained how to approach such a dog u dont just walk up and pet it


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I don't know if this is what you're getting at but no dog without proper training and socialization should be trusted to "defend the homestead." Especially in today's age of suing over any mistake, your dog is pretty much helpless if it makes the decision to bite the wrong person.
> 
> I don't think you can buy a dog from an amazing breeder, put it out in your back yard, and expect it to know what an intruder is and what a helpless kid is. If your goal is to keep everyone out, it will do that, but if you just want it to get the bad guys, then you're out of luck. My dog is very good at reacting to our energy, when someone comes in, he waits and as soon as he realizes we aren't worried, he goes to greet the person. We've never had someone we didn't know come in, but if they did, there is no doubt in my mind (due to our reaction) our dog would not react in a friendly way. At the same time, if someone came through the door that he didn't know, and we weren't home, he would react in a bad way no matter what their purpose is, but if he knows the person, I'm sure he would be wagging his tail and saying hello.


YEP this the dog will keep them out with its teeth but not just the bad guys it will keep the kids out also the hard way i can promise you that. Unless they are your kids of course. That is something big to think about also. A lot of kids throw rocks at dogs and have no fear of them.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

pets4life said:


> other downsides i have seen can be the dog is more reactive can be over protective of you or other family members, if you have kids specially it can be scary the dog might not let them play with strangers not a good mix.
> 
> Friends comming in and out family members visisting, people approaching your dogs crate your dog will scare the crap out of them when they get nosey or if you get careless, accidents can happen (someone can get bitten)
> 
> ...


What impact does socialization have on a dog like this?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

For socialization vandal will know more but it seems to be pretty important as usual it will keep them calm in public and i mean ignore people can handle bikers and runners etc.. Good ones should have rock solid nerve but that civil natural aggression will always be there and it is gentic they will protect your house like robocop. 

I was suprised about clydes comment about kids and muttering old people a dog like this with strong nerves shouldnt be a nut case reacting to everything it sees unless the old homless people yell at yOU the dog would ignore them.

NO one wants a pp or naturally civil dog that gets aggressive on the street to random people who talk to themselves or kids running around do you know how embarrassing that would be? that sounds like weak nerves or a crazy junk yard dog to me.

Dog will be ready to protect in a second when someone yells at you or acts threating as clear as a threat can be but not like a normal person talking and walking or jogging or biking by.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> ... I've recently read a book about past border patrol dogs and their handlers (not about Czech), and I was struck by how *strong the relationship between the k9 and the handler was*. It was not just about training that's for sure. For example, carrying the dog for kilometers during the chase so the dog can rest, or saving the dog from bullets by handler's own body, and the dog did the same for the handler. *Do not expect devotion if you have nothing to offer in return*.


Great point. 

My dog is a mix and I once believed (and still question,) what he would truly do if *I* was in danger -- if he perceived *I* was being threatened. I once said he'd do nothing. I don't believe that so much anymore. The bond I have with this dog is the most incredible bond I've known and I *know* he would not run away, tail tucked. Would he truly engage and attack? No. Would he get between, nip, bark, appear fierce? Yes, I believe he would do that. I also believe he'd be totally feeding off of whatever energy / fear that *I* was giving off.

Theory never tested. I hope it never is. You can't discount the dog and owner bond.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Was at seminar with Sheriff's k9 dept. (3 mali's and 1 GS) with county HS student gov representatives. After apphrehension demonstration,(I was decoy...lol), one of the students asked where these dogs lived. Every handler told them their dogs lived at home with them with their families IN THR HOUSE. You could see jaws drop....I chuckled to myself as I often hear comments on this forum from people who have not a clue about how discerning a good dog and in particular a good GS can be.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

i dont understand why people would get a dog for protection...


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

rshkr said:


> i dont understand why people would get a dog for protection...


i don't think most people get a dog for protection. They get them for companionship. At least I did and actually see myself as his protector. 

Genetics and strong nerves are key to a dog that knows a threat from a non threat but socialization is important so the dog gets a handle on life.

My dog has is a bit reactive, and does not have strong nerve ( but they are real weak) The fact that I took him everywhere and got him as used to as many things as possible has now at age 3 given him a handle on life that he does not react to sudden things as before. Last week at a street faire in town a kids came up from behind him on a scooter began petting him and then asked "Does your dog bite?" :crazy: Benny took all this in stride, because he has been around kids since he was 8 weeks and I conditioned him to skate boards , scooters , bikes , running kids...

A dog with great nerve might not need as much conditioning.

As far as protection. I think and have seen Benny "protect" everyone he considers part of our pack, by barking and holding off anyone he considers a threat. He has never needed to more than bark and I hope never has to. This "protection" seems to be a bit resource guarding. and herding. In a park situation ( not dog park) where there are lots of people and dogs we know, Benny wants to keep Jake , our Borzoi and all human family members close and will bark intently if they are allowed to wander off and look at me as if to alert me to a problem. 

Our big 20 pound cat gets out occasionally which we don't like because and last weekend was sunning himself on the driveway. Benny thought this was very wrong, and when the cat ignored his barks and nudges, he tried roll the cat back in.:rofl:


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

biggest thing that scaress me is a lot of these dogs working dogs excel in peronal protection natural high aggression seem to have a lot of drive and energy. 


Main thing is does the person have experience with a high drive gsd? I have had husky labs etc.. I find gsd more easy to train and fun to work with in some way because they are smart but they require much much more work and like you cant exactly miss a day not working them. IDK it could turn into a huge sscary nightmare very fast for a family dad or a busy mom. People on here tend to be really really into their dogs and like super devoted In the real world very few people have that devotion and hours of reading and obsession with their dogs and money and time willing to spend. It is hard work and cost a lot of money. Tying a dog like this in your yard all day will probably create a bad tempered monter and is cruel to the animal which should be worked a few hours every day. So much to learn they are wayyy to smart.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Or, the GSD can just be a nice house pet. I work full time and do a lot of trialing and titles with my dogs but *gasp* don't train them every day. I don't even exercise them everyday. Quality over quantity. My high drive working dogs are also my house pets and are content to nap at my feet all day long.


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

For the OP, if I correctly understand your questions, I have the type of dog you are asking about.
He is confident, highly suspicious & can be very civil, but is sensitive to my handling. He has always been this way. I did A LOT of (positive) socializing with him as a puppy & still work on it regularly. He is fine to go for a walk or biking, will "eyeball" people passing us, but otherwise ignores them. If some random stranger approached us, he will get between us & "guard" me for lack of a better description. If left to his own I have no doubt he would bite if they got too close or tried to touch me. So he gets put in a platz & I tell people he's not friendly. Keeps them from getting too close. He does not EVER bark/warn people first. He just gives this INTENSE stare & then (if ever given the opportunity) he would bite.
On the flip side, he is as trustworthy as a dog can be with our daughter & close family/friends. He also is the best puppy sitter around.
Would I suggest a dog like this to General Joe Public looking for a PP dog for his family? HECK NO!! I am an experienced dog person & I am always vigilant of the situations I put him in. He gets crated when lots of people come over or if our daughter has any of her friends over. 
If he ever bit someone outside of protecting me or my family, it would be my fault! It is a lot of work & a huge responsibility having a dog like this. Do I wish he was a bit more social...yep! sometimes I do, but he is what he is & I love him regardless. He is 100% devoted to me & everyone else can go fly a kite as far as he's concerned.
So anyways, not sure if that's really what you were after? LOL


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

northwoodsGSD said:


> For the OP, if I correctly understand your questions, I have the type of dog you are asking about.
> He is confident, highly suspicious & can be very civil, but is sensitive to my handling. He has always been this way. I did A LOT of (positive) socializing with him as a puppy & still work on it regularly. He is fine to go for a walk or biking, will "eyeball" people passing us, but otherwise ignores them. If some random stranger approached us, he will get between us & "guard" me for lack of a better description. If left to his own I have no doubt he would bite if they got too close or tried to touch me. So he gets put in a platz & I tell people he's not friendly. Keeps them from getting too close. He does not EVER bark/warn people first. He just gives this INTENSE stare & then (if ever given the opportunity) he would bite.
> On the flip side, he is as trustworthy as a dog can be with our daughter & close family/friends. He also is the best puppy sitter around.
> Would I suggest a dog like this to General Joe Public looking for a PP dog for his family? HECK NO!! I am an experienced dog person & I am always vigilant of the situations I put him in. He gets crated when lots of people come over or if our daughter has any of her friends over.
> ...


This is what we were getting at I believe, without YOU there, your dog would bite. It wouldn't bite your daughter or her friends that HE knows, but a new one, that might come into the back yard without anyone there, is in danger. You have a great dog, but without your guidance it can't differentiate a friend or foe that it doesn't know. At the end of the day, its a dog, and to yours, all strangers are dangerous, but he waits for your command to do anything about it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Here is a case of, to my mind, the right kind of protectivness without undue aggression.

We are at my aunt's house at Christmas time with a house full of friends and relatives. Our then 3.5yo female GSD is playing with two of my young nieces (10-12yo) in the other room. I am sitting on a chair with my back to the kitchen door and my dog just walked into the kitchen when the door is suddenly flung open, followed by my huge uncle(6.5 about 250 lbs) and he lets out a huge loud ("Merry Christmas") shout and stands right behind my chair and flings his arms out right over my head in a loud boisterous greeting.

Before anyone could react, no warning bark or growl or even hackles up, Princess leaps around the chair and grabs my uncle's arm with a full mouth bite and holds on - not crushing bite just a "Bite and Hold" Until I can get up and tell her "Out" - which fortunately she obeyed instantly and just stood there and watched him till things calmed down.

20 minutes later she was sharing a piece of his sandwhich with my uncle, sitting quietly at his side as he sat at the table! (Fortunately he knew animals very well and was not very excited by her grabbing his arm as he understood why she reacted so quickly to what she took as a threat to me).

That is a grat example of a dog more than willing to engage physically with a threat, BUT also with the sense and temperament to do it reasonably.

BTW, you should have seen the reaction of the two nieces after they witnessed this dog in action! Took a while before they were willing to play rough with her again (but they did before the day was over!!).


BTW2, this dog was a pure BYB product and our first of many GSD's!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

martemchik said:


> This is what we were getting at I believe, without YOU there, your dog would bite. It wouldn't bite your daughter or her friends that HE knows, but a new one, that might come into the back yard without anyone there, is in danger. You have a great dog, but without your guidance it can't differentiate a friend or foe that it doesn't know. At the end of the day, its a dog, and to yours, all strangers are dangerous, but he waits for your command to do anything about it.


I *expect* anyone that might come into my back yard without me there to be in danger!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Northwood, Your dog sounds like a very good example of what the breed should be. This breed was created for certain functions, its temperament reflects the ability to carry out these functions. These dogs require training and guidance to reach their potential. If given so, they are fantastic. We cannot afford to breed down to the level of the dog not being able or ready to perform in responsible situations. Children, just like dogs should be under supervision of adults. They should not be wandering into people's back yards. The answer is responsible supervision by adults on their dogs and their children....it is not to breed GS that have lost their guard dog traits. Owners have the responibility to socialize and teach their dogs acceptable boundaries, breeders have the responsibilty to breed dogs with good courage and nerve so that they are not reactive or skittish thus lending to indiscriminate bites. Parents have responsibilty for their children's behavoir and respect of people, dogs, and property. And Society has the reponsibility for recognizing who is faulty in any of the above AND HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE. Not change the dog's characteristics so lazy owners, irresponsible adults, or poor breeders allow mishaps to occur.JMO


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

northwoodsGSD said:


> For the OP, if I correctly understand your questions, I have the type of dog you are asking about.
> He is confident, highly suspicious & can be very civil, but is sensitive to my handling. He has always been this way. I did A LOT of (positive) socializing with him as a puppy & still work on it regularly. He is fine to go for a walk or biking, will "eyeball" people passing us, but otherwise ignores them. If some random stranger approached us, he will get between us & "guard" me for lack of a better description. *If left to his own I have no doubt he would bite if they got too close *or tried to touch me. So he gets put in a platz & I tell people he's not friendly. Keeps them from getting too close. He does not EVER bark/warn people first. He just gives this INTENSE stare & then (if ever given the opportunity) he would bite.
> On the flip side, he is as trustworthy as a dog can be with our daughter & close family/friends. He also is the best puppy sitter around.
> Would I suggest a dog like this to General Joe Public looking for a PP dog for his family? HECK NO!! I am an experienced dog person & I am always vigilant of the situations I put him in. He gets crated when lots of people come over or if our daughter has any of her friends over.
> ...


 
*A question - are you serious?* Your dog *"would bite if a person gets too close"!* Who decides how close is "too close"? Sounds like your dog makes that decision. What would be your own decision on "too close"? 3', 4', 5', 1', maybe 6' or so? What would you say the distance should be before your dog can bite a stranger just walking by you walking down the street?

You sound pleased that your dog will react this way - could you be?

My wife once walked a male GSD around a VERY crowded GSD speciality show for over 45 minutes. Turns out this particular GSD won hi protection score in the ScH3 trial at the German Seiger show. 

Think your dog is more "protective" than this dog? No one would ever had known of the capabilities of this dog if you were not told (unless someone really offered a threat to my wife, of course). THAT is how a proper GSD should behave!

We also have a dog who can be suspicious of strangers and we were told that he has a "low threshhold" and very quick to react, BUT we have been working VERY hard to train him NOT to react so fast but to observe and determine the difference between a real threat and just strangers. (With good results so far)


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Northwood, Your dog sounds like a very good example of what the breed should be. This breed was created for certain functions, its temperament reflects the ability to carry out these functions. These dogs require training and guidance to reach their potential. If given so, they are fantastic. We cannot afford to breed down to the level of the dog not being able or ready to perform in responsible situations. Children, just like dogs should be under supervision of adults. They should not be wandering into people's back yards. The answer is responsible supervision by adults on their dogs and their children....it is not to breed GS that have lost their guard dog traits. Owners have the responibility to socialize and teach their dogs acceptable boundaries, breeders have the responsibilty to breed dogs with good courage and nerve so that they are not reactive or skittish thus lending to indiscriminate bites. Parents have responsibilty for their children's behavoir and respect of people, dogs, and property. And Society has the reponsibility for recognizing who is faulty in any of the above AND HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE. Not change the dog's characteristics so lazy owners, irresponsible adults, or poor breeders allow mishaps to occur.JMO


What a great post.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Codmaster....Who was the dog that was hi protection at the Sch 3 trial at the German Seiger show.....just curious?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Codmaster....Who was the dog that was hi protection at the Sch 3 trial at the German Seiger show.....just curious?


 
A male that Julius Due had at the show when we were visiting with him and his wife in the middle of getting a puppy through him. I don't remember the name as it was a LONG time ago.

He was the one who "forgot" to mention the training and performance of the dog before my wife (complete novice with dogs at the time) took him for a walk. Great faith he and his wife had in the dog!

Very friendly dog as soon as he got to know you, otherwise a very aloof dog as per the standard. Once he warmed up to you - a super dog! And one of the main reasons that we ended up with a puppy from him.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Julius Due was one of the better Judges back in the day that valued Temperament and structure in the ring....Thank You
ps Also during that time period there was not as much a separation of the breed as it is today (in Germany)....albeit like the dogs I have maintained can be all things....alas things were much simpler then.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Julius Due was one of the better Judges back in the day that valued Temperament and structure in the ring....Thank You
> ps Also during that time period there was not as much a separation of the breed as it is today (in Germany)....albeit like the dogs I have maintained can be all things....alas things were much simpler then.


 
He certainly was that! And a VERY nice gentleman besides!

Do you remember the GSDCA National when he caused such a reaction when he excused a number of BOB Specials> WOW! Some well known breeders are probably still mad at him!

There was still a great difference between German and US lines, although you are right, not the working/show separation split like we have now.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Catu said:


> I *expect* anyone that might come into my back yard without me there to be in danger!


Absolutely...but the OP's question was in regards to a dog being able to discern a friend from a foe when they have never met someone based on their temperament and breeding, I don't think any dog would be able to do that no matter the amount of training they get without the handler being there to let it know what to do.

But if a small child goes into your back yard and your dog attacks him/her, I'm sure you wouldn't be very happy.


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

codmaster said:


> *A question - are you serious?* Your dog *"would bite if a person gets too close"!* Who decides how close is "too close"? Sounds like your dog makes that decision. What would be your own decision on "too close"? 3', 4', 5', 1', maybe 6' or so? What would you say the distance should be before your dog can bite a stranger just walking by you walking down the street?
> 
> You sound pleased that your dog will react this way - could you be?
> 
> ...


Did you even bother to read & comprehend my whole post? Based on what you wrote, you didn't.
Where did I ever state I would be pleased if my dog bit someone? Oh that's right I DIDN'T! I stated that if he ever bit someone(unless truly protecting me or my family) it would be MY FAULT! for putting him in a situation where that could happen. I am very aware of whats going on around us all the time when out in public areas & keep him under control. He's not out running free & making his own choices.
"Close" is all relative to whomever may be approaching. If it's a strange person acting aggressive & freaking me out, too close would be whenever my dog could reach him. If it's a small child wondering over to pet the doggy, he will glare but not react. He is very responsive to my handling & the vibe I may be sending.
He does not react to people he knows. My daughter romps around w/ him for hours at a time, he loves rough housing w/ my Dad, ect.
When did this become a contest of whose dog is more protective? I simply posted a response based on what I thought the OP was asking.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

martemchik said:


> But if a small child goes into your back yard and your dog attacks him/her, I'm sure you wouldn't be very happy.


If a child is big enough to trespass my 6 foot fence (plus barb wire), it is big enough to deserve whatever my dogs do to him and I'd still be very happy. Most burglars are kids of 14-16 years old. Even if younger, the blame is on the parents, not in my dogs defending MY property (I love not to live in USA).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Catu said:


> If a child is big enough to trespass my 6 foot fence (plus barb wire), it is big enough to deserve whatever my dogs do to him and I'd still be very happy. Most burglars are kids of 14-16 years old. Even if younger, the blame is on the parents, not in my dogs defending MY property (I love not to live in USA).


I love not needing a 6 foot fence and barbed wire around my property lol. In your situation of course no one is going to be in your yard by accident, but in many of our situations there might be a chance a child gets into a yard without bad intentions. Like a ball flying in or any other toy going over a fence. So in those situations I still don't believe a dog would discern what is a friendly child and what is a dangerous adult. They would just do whatever their genetics tell them to do.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

martemchik said:


> I love not needing a 6 foot fence and barbed wire around my property lol. In your situation of course no one is going to be in your yard by accident, but in many of our situations there might be a chance a child gets into a yard without bad intentions. Like a ball flying in or any other toy going over a fence. So in those situations I still don't believe a dog would discern what is a friendly child and what is a dangerous adult. They would just do whatever their genetics tell them to do.


If you had a monkey like Diabla... you wold need a 6 foot fence and barbed wire... There is this specific corner where I had to raise it to 8 foot so she couldn't climb it. Actually mine is one of the few fenced in yards in the neighborhood, and its because I'm not afraid to leave the dogs free in the yard while I'm not at home. On the bad side... most people just leave their dogs to roam.

But I agree with you, I don't expect the dogs to take those decisions for me. While I'm all about the importance of genetics there is a limit of what you can ask from a dog. While a good dog should disern with a small child, with teens and even preteens that lines is blurry and it becomes unfair on the dog to put such responsability on them. Its like the circles and ovals Pavlov's experiment of induced neurosis.



> Pavlov believed that being pressured to make excessively fine discriminations could trigger neurosis or mental disturbance. In one experiment, Pavlov taught a dog to discriminate between a circle and an oval. The location of the circle and the oval was changed randomly, so the dog had to discriminate between them on the basis of shape, not location. When the dog pointed its nose at a circle, it received food. When it pointed at the oval shape, it received an electric shock. Gradually Pavlov made the oval rounder and rounder. Soon it was hard to tell the oval from the circle. The dog began showing signs of distress, whining and defecating. Pavlov said this showed an experimental neurosis.


http://www.intropsych.com/ch05_conditioning/release_from_habituation.html


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Certainly many dogs will discern that a child entering property would not be a threat to be bitten. And same dog would discern that an adult entering property should be challenged. Just like many strong dogs will not challenge or fight a puppy, even a strange one, whereas the same dog would not give another grown dog the same courtesy. I have seen this too many times, have owned dogs with this type of discernment. A lot of what people don't believe is based on limited involvement with these type of dogs or else they would know better. And if you haven't owned and worked these kinda of dogs consistently, how can you make this statement?????There are some of us that have worked with these type of strong dogs for years and years and know that many of the breed possess this type of discernment. Of course you have the examples of a dog mauling a kid that wanders into a yard and then people run with this instance like it always the case. Phooey Stat!!! Just like most of the people who are first to give advice on aggression and aggressive dogs have limited involvement with these types of dogs. You can always tell by some of the ludicrous statements made.JMO


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Catu said:


> If a child is big enough to trespass my 6 foot fence (plus barb wire), it is big enough to *deserve whatever my dogs do to him* and I'd still be very happy. Most burglars are kids of 14-16 years old. Even if younger, the blame is on the parents, not in my dogs defending MY property (*I love not to live in USA*).


 
*And we are all equally glad of that as well!*

An 8 yo kid could probably get over your fence - and your dog should attack that one too?

Even *kill a kid* (for trespass into your yard?). How about *a girl* - any difference in what you seem to feel what your dog can do to a kid?

What kind of fence is it? I have had a stockade fence board actually come down in a strong wind - guess that would be open season for your dog, eh?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

martemchik said:


> They would just do whatever their genetics tell them to do.


 Exactly. And a dog with good genetics will discern. I can't believe how many people on this board think so little of their dogs and truly believe that the dog cannot have his own independent good judgement.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

First, it was a generalization, not about what my particular dogs would do. Diabla would invite any person, young or old, male or female, to have tea and take the DVD player as long as that person is willing to throw some sticks for her, she will receive a serial killer with a wagging tail because in her mind human beings were put on Earth only to play with her. (Not proper GSD temperament and spayed, but great for SAR)

Akela is still a teenager and some days more protective than others. He puts a show every time someone approaches to the house, but welcome people as soon as I talk to them. I've never need him to ask to quiet in order to talk to people at the gate, he calms down as soon as I go out and assumes I'm in charge of the situation and if I'm calm, he is OK too. Knowing him around kids, I highly, highly doubt he would act aggressively against one. Now, I have a chain link fence, extra protected with thorned hedgerow in most of it surface. Still you can see all the property from outside, and you can see there are (at least) two large dogs inside from 200 meters away. If a kid still wants to jump in and Akela doesn't want* it* (since I can't use gender and I don't know any other generic one in English) inside, he will show his disapproval way before the kid can even touch the fence, and only a mentally challenged child would insist.

Honestly I doubt Akela would react to a 3 years old, a 6 years old, a 10 years old, even a 12 years old kid (And I only name him because Diabla would not react up to 116 years old) but I can't say for sure because I've never been in a situation where one tries to trespass my house. Actually, this weekend a person Akela knows and his 9 years old step son, who Akela didn't met before, came to visit and they had to call me to my cell phone to say they had arrived, because none of the dogs even barked. Both the dogs played with him later for hours.

Where I say it is unfair to put responsibility in the dogs is in the case of older kids. If our different cultures can't agree when a person stops being a child and start being an adult, why dogs should? I confess that if I'm walking alone, in a dark part of a crappy neighborhood and I see a group of teenagers smoking "something" in a corner... I would at least keep my distance.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I have seen some of the type of discernment Cliff speaks of in most GSD's I have had. Benny is a bit reactive and will bark and try not to let adults he does not know in our home or my office. He has absolutely know problem with children . He is relaxed, allows himself to be petted and gives kisses.

He is wonderful with puppies and allows them to crawl on him , take toys even go in his crate; all the things he would never allow an older dog 
Last year my sons friend began bringing his 7 week old pup pit bull over on weekends and Benny let the pup get have free reign until the pup was 14 weeks and got in Benny's space to steal a toy. Benny growled, lunged, nipped and the pup squealed and backed off. It was mostly vocal, with a little blood on the pups ear.
Benny had discerned that the pup was old enough to be disciplined. The two get along fine now, but have a mutual respect. Benny is the alpha but is not a bully, to the now 15 month


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> Exactly. And a dog with good genetics will discern. I can't believe how many people on this board think so little of their dogs and truly believe that the dog cannot have his own independent good judgement.


I agree with this. I've had 3 GSD and my first one, Bear, was probably the closest to the "standard" of temperment stabiilty that the German Shepherd was bred to be (the second is a happy-go-lucky type that wouldn't bite a flea). Bear could definitely discern a child from an adult. In fact, I'd have trusted a child's life with that dog. When "aggressive" it was a protective, stoic and very focused stance. He was in control of himself. I remember once saying, "I swear that dog has abstract thinking ability." Very unlike this third one I have, whose fear aggression is all over the place when stimulated by something. It's completely different.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me the solution is easy - I just put up a 6' 9 gauge dig-proof fence with a locked gate. No dog or person enters in or out unless I say so.  Even being in a nice, friendly neighborhood I've had too many experiences with people thinking they can do whatever they want on my property and to my dogs, big kids (high schoolers) picking on my dogs through the fence, other peoples' dogs running wild and trying to pick fights with me or my dogs on our property, etc. A few GSDs with appropriate thresholds (not fence-fighting ever person, dog, child, or wheeled-object that passes by) and a tall, strong fence is an easy solution for me. I don't worry about anything or anyone coming in or what my dogs might or might not to do protect me or themselves and I don't lose sleep trying to analyze every reaction my dogs may or may not have. If people ask to come see my dogs, sure I let them come up and come through the gate. If people really want to stand in my driveway and be obnoxious to my dogs on purpose, well then they have my fence to keep them safe and keep my home owner's insurance intact.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Liesje said:


> For me the solution is easy - I just put up a 6' 9 gauge dig-proof fence with a locked gate. No dog or person enters in or out unless I say so.  Even being in a nice, friendly neighborhood I've had too many experiences with people thinking they can do whatever they want on my property and to my dogs, big kids (high schoolers) picking on my dogs through the fence, other peoples' dogs running wild and trying to pick fights with me or my dogs on our property, etc. A few GSDs with appropriate thresholds (not fence-fighting ever person, dog, child, or wheeled-object that passes by) and a tall, strong fence is an easy solution for me. I don't worry about anything or anyone coming in or what my dogs might or might not to do protect me or themselves and I don't lose sleep trying to analyze every reaction my dogs may or may not have. If people ask to come see my dogs, sure I let them come up and come through the gate. If people really want to stand in my driveway and be obnoxious to my dogs on purpose, well then they have my fence to keep them safe and keep my home owner's insurance intact.


:thumbup:


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