# Tips For Dumb Bell Training?



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Now that Eska has her BH, I am starting serious work on something she's not too crazy about: the dumb bell retrieve.

I was told to force my previous dog to take the dumb bell in her mouth, and that REALLY backfired.

Eska will sometimes take the dumb bell willingly from my hands, if I get her excited enough about it (tease her with it) but she much prefers a ball. 

Any one have any novel ways of getting her more excited about the dumb bell? I don't think she likes the feel of it in her mouth. What about wrapping it with VetWrap?

She will retrieve (SOMETIMES!) both the ball and the dumb bell, but spits the ball out before i can get her to sit. She does the same with the dumb bell, and most often drops it after carrying it for a few feet.

I am not anti-correction, but strive to used positive training as much as possible. I LOVE to see a schutzhund dog wagging its tail during obedience!


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

I have taught my last 3 dogs by reverse chaining. From supersoftabused inprevioustraining Xara to my super high drive .want to learn Dutch shepherd Rossi. The 2 I used more " force" with one rebelled and I smartly started all over with and got his Schh3 ( now IPO) with no DQs. I quit sport dogs after I had Jaden (semi force with high natural retrieve) got his Bh. Started w dowel behind my back and dog sitting front. Quickly presented and mark reward for nose touch. Slowly upped criteria. Funny story. Xara got to where she would holding but immediately drop it. Favorite trainer told metros how her supper, ask for her to take it. If she dropped it, no supper.3rd night she pulled my sweatshirt off chair, into her rate and peed on it...that next day she did it perfect and never looked back. Then dog sat beside and picked it up right in front of him, you set it there, return front.then you move it further..teach last of an behavior last. Also in the sitting in front of you, change to dumbbell. The reason for asking for quick response to level of behavior is to lead to quick retrieve,especially important to IPO..also worked with them justhealingaround to it, finished with a recall and taking it only occasionally before heeling around again..some dogs do well with tugging if they don't get chewy. Have a super German dumbbell that has rubber bar and two rope handles. Sorry so long.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Certainly not an expert, but I started TJ out by (me) sitting in a chair and he was sitting right in front of me. I teased him with the dumbbell and the second he put his mouth around it I marked and rewarded him (food). We then went for duration/hold once he readily grabbed it on his own. I took the chair away and worked on it. Retrieving is a whole other set of exercises that we did after once he would take, hold and walk with the dumbbell. I now use his ball as a reward.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If you do a force retrieve, you have to see it through even if its ugly. If you don't, odds aren't real good she'll ever pick up a dumbell. I like Ivan's steps from his video. You basically create a play retrieve with a toy first. Then separate of that you work on hold with a dowel that has a lanyard attached to the end. That's where you create a little pressure for the hold. At some point when both are solid, you'll build a little drive for the dumbell and toss that. The video is really straight forward and easy to follow.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

So, Steve, your post gave me an idea. 

I could try turning a dowel (just a dowel, no ends on it) into a flirt toy...

That would likely work REALLY well, as Eska's breeder started her out with a flirt pole, and she still goes CRAZY for it! I'd put an eyebolt on the end of the dowel so I could attach it to either my long line or a flirt pole.

Other than that, Eska's toy drive isn't nearly as strong as my 10 year old showline's drive.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, the dowel isn't supposed to be a drive object. It's what you use to create a firm hold, and what you'd use for corrections. I'd still use a toy to build the drive, then transition to the dumbell, even if you try different style dumbells in the beginning. I like this, but think about what Mspiker said. A lot of people do it that way too.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And the other thing too Sunsilver, they don't take the dowel, you put it in their mouth. Its the this isn't voluntary part.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Steve, I managed to transform my other female's ball drive into a really nice controlled retrieve of the ball, exactly as is required with the dumb bell retrieve. Unfortunately she wouldn't do the same thing with the dumb bell, as forcing her to take it into her mouth had killed any desire she had to play with it.

I think I could do the same thing with the dowel and dumb bell. My feeling is what I need most of all is to get her excited about retrieving it. Right now she's just 'meh'!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

How is her food drive. I started out exactly like mspiker03 said. Sitting dog touches, Mark, treat, advance to bites, then holds. Now when I get the dumbbell out she is super excited.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Steve, I managed to transform my other female's ball drive into a really nice controlled retrieve of the ball, exactly as is required with the dumb bell retrieve. Unfortunately she wouldn't do the same thing with the dumb bell, as forcing her to take it into her mouth had killed any desire she had to play with it.
> 
> I think I could do the same thing with the dowel and dumb bell. My feeling is what I need most of all is to get her excited about retrieving it. Right now she's just 'meh'!


The problem with making her want to play with the dumbbell is that she is unlikely to have a nice calm hold of it. She could end up being very chewy. I would do what mspiker recommended. You can add drive later when you work on the actual retrieve.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Some people do make the dumbell itself the drive object. But I like it more like a trade, because I worry about not only what GypsyGhost said, but if you look at how IPO retrieves are judged, you want that direct intent of getting the dumbell back to you. That can be hard to do with some dogs if they already have what they want. Have you played two ball with her? You can try different things to create that out and back pattern with her, and even if she's dropping it early, you can still fix that with the play once she's really running back.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This may help, see the pace of it and the short distance?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Steve, I would NEVER EVER play two ball with a dog I wanted to teach the dumb bell retrieve to! It ENCOURAGES them to drop the ball!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

But it also gives you an easy, no pressure fix. Here's a dog that's played 2 ball since he was 9wks old:


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

IDK - my dog is a two ball Junkie and he has never dropped the dumbbell (well until I mark it). And if he ever dropped the dumbbell he wouldn't get rewarded with the ball - which is what he really wants - so he would learn real quick.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Before Doc, I never would have wanted my dog to drop a dumbell. Now most of the time I let him drop it on release almost as soon as he's picked it up and started the return. You break things down in pieces, a lot more then we used to. But that's not whats important right now. Right now the most important part is the out and back pattern. It doesn't have to be 2 ball, Ivan doesn't do that and I'd say he's better then me at this. I'm just pointing out options.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Before Doc, I never would have wanted my dog to drop a dumbell. Now most of the time I let him drop it on release almost as soon as he's picked it up and started the return. You break things down in pieces, a lot more then we used to. But that's not whats important right now. Right now the most important part is the out and back pattern. It doesn't have to be 2 ball, Ivan doesn't do that and I'd say he's better then me at this. I'm just pointing out options.



Elise started having me do something like this recently. But he is dropping on the marker work. But then sometimes I make him come into a front. It has really helped his return speed and position (he is coming in more straight now).


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, its a lot different now. There's no way I would have let Andy drop it.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

When I was in the Sch sport the trainer said to wait on dumb bell training until the dog was well over a year old there was plenty of other training to do. The ball and tugs were rewards and so called play things. The retrieve was the job.

So by the time the dumb bell retrieve came about, heeling was well developed, send out and recalls were solid, and the dog knew the difference between play and work.

We started the dumb bell indoors in the living room. First was to have the dog grasp the smaller dumb bell. Just take it and hold it. Then " out" and take it and reward. It didn't take long for this. Then we went to the back yard doing the same. Take it, hold , then out. Then I tossed it about 5-6 feet away with the dog at heel. Using the retrieve command I rushed the dog to the dumb bell, take it then jumped back so the dog had to turn around and take a step. Again out. This was the hardest part as there were multiple events going on. But it still went pretty well. I just tossed it a little further and continued. Eventually I was able to stand and toss the dumb bell the required distance and the dog retrieved it. Getting the tail wagging happy dog came with high value rewards.

The next step was to increase the size and weights. As I recall the large dumb bell was 2 kg or a little over 4 pounds. By this time carrying 5 pounds was no problem. He could easily pick up a bowling ball by the holes.I had to take that away as I didn't want any broken teeth.

I also had been working on jumps. Mostly just going over things. SCH jump is 1 meter or 39 inches. It can be brush covered or plain with brush on the top. They must not touch it so I made my jump 48". I always set it up on grass and avoided hard ground.

Part of a good retrieve is a good toss. It's best if you do not move your feet. You do need to practice the toss as there is /was penalty for a retoss. The toss is similar to bowling so practice tossing directly in front of you. When the jump and wall events come you need to toss over the them, not on the side or you risk having the dog go around them. Yes, I know, they should know to go over but everyone knows " my dog never did that before". A new field, trials and new dumb bells are things you have to train for. In Sch there are 30 points for the three retrieves so there is no room for error here. 

I don't do a formal retrieve with my current Aussie. We have 14 objects, each has a name, a play session she runs to retrieve each of them in rapid fire with " pig, and two ground hog toys" being retrieved twice. It's about five minutes of high speed running and turning around. I add a 24" jump once a day too. It's a lot of exercise in a short period. It's also a training exercise in excitable drive then calming down without command or help. There are lots of high value rewards too. 

Byron


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It doesn't sound like the value was put on the dumbell. The only path to the ball should be thru the dumbell. Create that drive. Choose the dumbell....get the ball. It does not teach them to drop the dumbell.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Sunsilver said:


> Steve, I would NEVER EVER play two ball with a dog I wanted to teach the dumb bell retrieve to! It ENCOURAGES them to drop the ball!


Not at all, done properly it teaches the dog to "out" on command and not to drop the ball until commanded to out. Every dog I titled in IPO started out with the two ball game. Also, every patrol dog that, mine and other handlers that I have trained was started out with the two ball game. It teaches the recall and the out. The dumbbell is a separate exercise and "outing" on command is different than letting go of an object prematurely.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The retrieves in IPO are worth 40 pts. You teach the dog to not go around the jump or wall by proofing the exercises. There is no guarantee in a trial that the DB won't bounce a bit to the wrong side, but not far enough where the judge will let you repeat the throw. Show the dog that they are only rewarded for going over the jump/wall and nothing if they decide to either not retrieve or go around.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have used the out of the dumbbell for a ball thrown between my legs for over 20 years. It is a great way to increase speed and, through training and proofing, the dog learns that dropping the DB before the out command results in having to repeat the exercise. It can be a bit scary with a large dog and a bullet dog especially when the 3 DB comes flying at you when dropped. LOL


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

lhczth said:


> I have used the out of the dumbbell for a ball thrown between my legs for over 20 years. It is a great way to increase speed and, through training and proofing, the dog learns that dropping the DB before the out command results in having to repeat the exercise. It can be a bit scary with a large dog and a bullet dog especially when the 3 DB comes flying at you when dropped. LOL


Yeah...ouch! Eska definitely has a pretty fast recall. She hit me so hard in the knees one night that I limped off the field and was still limping the next day!

Haven't started serious work with the obstacles yet, as I want to give her enough time to get over being hit by that car! It will be 3 weeks on Wednesday, and I plan to start then.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Start low and spend time teaching her the correct mechanics of jumping. Then start low again and add the retrieve.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

In these retrieves the dog has to firmly hang on to the dumb bell. He can't be mouthing it or rolling it around. Taking the thing away too soon can cause a loose mouth or just dropping it. When the dog comes to you he needs to sit square and show positively that he has control of the dumb bell. It doesn't hurt to have him calmly hold it. In training have him sit quietly then grab hold of it and give your out command. He is not done yet he still must finish correctly so you need this too before the final reward. It's part od what makes this exercise more difficult as there are many phases that you need to blend before the training is complete. 

The same goes for recalls. A fast recall is good but if he smashes into you its all for naught. My Aussie has a very explosive recall. She will slide on the rubber Matt floor in classes. I hold a guiding hand in front for training. We use both a wrap around finish and a flip finish depending on command. She has to sit perfectly still before finish. The same with retrieves even our play time ones.

An important part of the whole thing is getting a good bond with your dog. If he doesn't trust you and thinks he may get a yank on the prong or juiced for a mistake, he is not going to come rushing up to you nice and happy with the dumb bell.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

It's been quite a while since I was in the SCH/IPO sports so rules have changed. 40 points for retrieves and 10 for recall makes half of your score so it pays to get these correct. It can cost you the event with messed up retrieves.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Just got back from a training session at the local military base. The advantage of training on the parade ground is there's no grass to hide the ball, and it helps keep me walking straight! I tend to wander to the left when doing the 50 paces out for obedience.

Well, there are 2 excercises she's nailed already: she does a perfect sit in motion and down in motion. She pretty much had those down pat before we did the BH, though.

Today we took a really significant step with the 'voraus'. I had been throwing the ball, then using a hand signal, and the word 'voraus' to send her out. Then, of course, telling her to 'platz' when she got to the ball. 

I could see she was already linking the word and the hand signal to going forward, so I tried it without the ball. She ran about 10 feet out, then stopped, obviously confused that there was no ball. So, I then put her in a stay, walked about 30 ft. forward, placed the ball on the asphalt, returrned to her side, and gave the 'voraus' command!

She did it PERFECTLY! She zoomed out, and dropped immediately into a platz when I told her to, then waited for me to come to her side before moving!

Now, if ONLY the work with the dumb bell would go as well...

She wouldn't retrieve it or even pick it up today, and although she did some nice retrieves with the ball, she spat it out every single time just before getting to me. THAT'S why I don't want to start playing 'two ball' with her, because it would just encourage her to spit the ball out in anticipation of getting the second ball!

I worked on getting her to hold the ball in her mouth, and holding the dumb bell, then telling her 'give' and rewarding her. I think I saw a bit of improvement by the end of our session, but not very much!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe you should go back to foundation work on position and holding the dumbell and stop doing the retrieves until she's mastered the first steps.

IMO, her spitting out the ball early is caused by not teaching her duration on the hold before moving her to the next step.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jax, up until now, I've been using the ball as a reward at the end of a training session. Yes, the few times she DOES actually bring it to me, I've praised her to the skies, and given her lots of treats, but it's been more of a fun thing, or something I do for exercise.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What does that have to do with the retrieves you originally asked about? That response is very confusing in the context of your question.

Have you put any value on the Dumbell? Have you taught her to hold the dumbell for any duration? Have you tried back chaining the dumbell so she understands the Task? It sounds like you are asking her to go get an object without any understanding of what is expected of her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunsilver said:


> Eska will sometimes take the dumb bell willingly from my hands, if I get her excited enough about it (tease her with it) but she much prefers a ball.


You need to go back to this step. Her only path to the ball is by taking and holding the dumbell. She will learn and she will start taking the dumbell over the ball because she knows it's the only way to get the ball. So tease he, get her excited. 

Then teach her position. Back chain the exercise. The very last step is actually asking her to run out and retrieve the dumbell.

Lots of videos out there and most trainers can show you how to do this. Complete Canine just put up a video on Facebook showing teaching the position and holding the dowel.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If this is hijacking this thread I will post another. I am trying to teach a retrieve to my boy too. He will hold the dumb bell in a sit but I have to close his mouth around it and kind of make him commit. Once he holds it for a few seconds I will release and reward with food. He prefers toys but if I let him tug at all then he is panting and wants to hold the dumb bell even less.

I've started trying to ask him to take a few steps and sit while holding it-- if I do that I start him holding from a stand so he doesn't have to have getting up be part of it. I'm not totally sure if I should work on getting him to commit to holding without me having to physically make him before I try for steps.

And the whole thing seems to be going at a glacial pace. I sort of thought I'd work harder at it this winter when he will hopefully want to pant less and we'll need something to do indoors on super cold or miserable day

He retrieves toys no problem but does drop them as soon as he gets to me. 

He will actively grab at the dumb bell when I present it to him but it's just a grab and release and he still won't go from grab to hold without me making him.

I don't honestly work on it that often because I'm not totally sure if I am doing it right or I should try something different. I'll try to check out the videos I've seen posted in this thread...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> You need to go back to this step. Her only path to the ball is by taking and holding the dumbell. She will learn and she will start taking the dumbell over the ball because she knows it's the only way to get the ball. So tease he, get her excited.
> 
> Then teach her position. Back chain the exercise. The very last step is actually asking her to run out and retrieve the dumbell.


I was able to teach my other dog to do a great retrieve with the ball, (making her wait for me to throw it, nice front finish, etc.) then was able to transfer it over to the dumb bell, without breaking it down into steps. But she has a much higher ball drive than Eska!

In her case, making her take the dumb bell in her mouth while sitting in front of me just about ruined any interest she had in it. I only succeeded when I made the dumb bell a prey item, by teasing her with it, as if it were a ball or a tug.

Now she will actually bark for it, begging me to throw it!

I was hoping to get Eska to do the same thing, but alas, it's not working because her ball/toy drive isn't as strong. Star has been known to fall asleep with a toy in her mouth - THAT'S how much she loves her toys!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

A send out for a toy, is just a variation of a retrieve. I think you have something to work with, if you want. If you're worried about working hold, don't do it directly in front of you and move her around after each rep to blow off some stress.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Funny how she spits the ball out, but will carry the sleeve all the way back to my car... :rolleyes2:

That's why I am wanting to create the same sort of drive for the dumb bell, as she has for the sleeve. Is that a mistake?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

She needs an incentive to bring something back to you. The idea of a play retrieve is to make it fun to return something to you. In that Ivan video, the quick pace and short throw rep after rep makes it clear you're going to throw it again. In two ball, you have the other ball so at a certain point its easy enough to not throw it unless she returns the first one. To me, ideally the dumbell itself only has the value of getting you to throw that second toy. There's a certain amount of drive for it, but ideally to me, its nothing but a trade. Bring me that, you get this.

There's no possessivness over it like the sleeve. That would cause you problems.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yeah, Star gets possessive of the ball and the dumb bell, but has learned that 'give' means 'give', and she gets to chase after it again.

She gets to play tug with the ball as a reward, and the trigger for that is not asking for a 'fuss' before I throw it, and using the word "BREAK" to let her know the training is done.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Shade Whitesel is teaching this class starting December 1st. https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/11133


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