# Are Shepherds suppose to walk on their hocks?



## emjworks05

I was wondering this because i went to a dog show this weekend and the shepherds there were walking on their hocks, it made their hips sway too. I was just wondering if all German Shepherds were suppose to do this or if it is only certain lines maybe showlines?


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## DianaM

No, they are not supposed to. No dog expected to work and perform strenuous activity every day for most of the day can do so with that structure without harm. That's an unfortunate effect of the show ring and the focus for the flying trot and how it looks from the side. You'll notice that GSDs working in schutzhund, military, and police do not have such a gait. 

Some breeders breed for more moderate angulation and others for extreme. You'll find nice showline dogs that do not walk on their hocks and are pretty darn agile just like you'll find those that look drunk while walking.


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## emjworks05

Oh ok, so the dogs that do show do walk on their hocks? i would think this is very uncomfy. At first i thought there was something very wrong with his hips because of the way he was walking. I was told by someone at the show that this is how it is suppose to be and thats why i asked, it didnt seem right.


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## DianaM

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/12_Type_Comparison/Comparison_Types.html

It is normal in the AKC showing and the GSD specialty show ring but normal does not necessarily equate desirable. IMO, the most moderate dogs with the best structure closest to the standard are found in the V-rated German showlines and working lines but there are some very nice American lines with structure as originally intended by the standard. It's the *interpretation* of the standard that creates problems in the showline dogs, American *or* European.

...or any breed, for that matter.


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## Jazy's mom

I will probably get flamed for this by some of the show people, but I think this is the most disgusting and cruel thing. I can not believe that anyone in their right mind would purposely breed a dog to have the severe angulations that force dogs to walk on their hocks. There is not a single other breed of dog that I know of that looks like this. You would think that mother nature knows what she is doing.

I have heard show people say "wow, look at him run isn't it just beautiful" when watching a showline dog run. All I can think of is how pain that must be for the dog and how many problems is he/she going to have down the road. It literally makes me sick. 

There is someone in my local GSD club that has a dog whose back legs practically cross each other when he walks. It looks like he is going to trip over his own legs. No one else in the club seems to think there is anything wrong with this. I think it is just sad.


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## emjworks05

So a dog that does not walk on the hocks can still be able to be shown?


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## BJDimock

And beautifully so! None of my Fidelco girls walk on their hocks, but boy, can my current foster stack for the breed!

Poor Frodo!! Such a handsome boy! But will always walk on his hock because its fused! He gives perfect stacks because he's physically unable not too.


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## DianaM

Any purebred, intact, pedigreed German shepherd dog that does not have a disqualifying fault may be shown in the AKC show ring. You can show a VA red and black German highline, a black sable DDR/Czech GSD, an almost malinois-like black and tan Belgian line GSD, a solid black West German working line, and a typical American show line GSD. The only difference is that all but the typical American line will likely be laughed out of the ring at worst and at best placed as low as possible unless the dog can stack and appear/move like the American lines.

Of course, many American line dogs would be laughed out of Schutzhund clubs as would many working lines be laughed out of the Siegers. Each has its preferential type. This is a very disjointed breed and each segment has fierce supporters.


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## onyx'girl

I've called my Pastors american line GSD a hockwalker since I met her.







She runs beautifully though!


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## Catu

At least around here, in the German Showline ring, they do want angulation and long croups, but swaying hocks is severely penalized and no dog walking on his hocks can aspire to touch a podium.


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## Xeph

Indeed, Catu. And by the way, good explanations Diana  I have a very nice Amline male I'm campaigning right now...good angles, but doesn't walk on his hocks, nor does he gait on them (I'm hoping to get some new video soon)


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## trudy

check this video

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0


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## mjbgsd

I think it's absolutely disgusting to see those dogs walk on their hocks!! When they are just standing, their rear ends keep dipping downwards and then have to keep resituating themselves or else they fall over. It's ugly and has no use in the field. I like to stand by the ring with Isa, (who's a german showline) and listen to so many people in the public comment on how well my dog stands and then look over at the american lines and ask what's wrong with them. I'm not bashing all american lines but the majority of them just looks ugly...


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## shepherdbydesign

Amy- I totally agree with you. Its totally disgusting to see the GSD's walk this way, If they were ment to walk like this every GSD would and thank God that the working lines don't.


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## Liesje

Now I don't have a problem with the more moderate American show line dogs (not my cup of tea but my dogs are probably not their cup of tea so to each her own), so I'm not totally against this split in the breed per se, but I was at a show last weekend and this GSD puppy walked by, even knowing that there would be American dogs present I thought this dog had a neurological disorder before I figured out he was just an extreme Am line dog. He was walking on his hocks, dragging his feet, and when he stopped, his rear sort of quivered. He was cow hocked but probably not any more so than my German puppy of the same age (I'm told that the Germans don't care either way about cow hocks and that in many working versions of other breeds it is desired for the dog's ability to make quick turns).


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## DianaM

Lies, that is so sad. If the American showline people don't care for working lines or German showlines, fine, but it is absolutely distressing to know that breeders are purposely breeding dogs that can barely walk and stand. Today I saw a photo of a GSD stacked that resembled a right triangle. Its tail seemed to start BELOW the elbow line. It's painfully unnatural. 



> Quote:I'm told that the Germans don't care either way about cow hocks and that in many working versions of other breeds it is desired for the dog's ability to make quick turns


Interesting! I didn't know that cow-hocks could be a good thing.


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## FlyByNight

> Quote:Interesting! I didn't know that cow-hocks could be a good thing.


I know that shepherds/ranchers value a bit of a cow-hock in their Border Collies, for the very reason Lies said. Then again, it's not something they breed _for_ .... considering they breed for nothing in particular, conformationally, other than a dog who can work all day for years and years and not break down.

They think it's pretty funny that the AKC Barbie Collies consider cow-hocks a fault.


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## DianaM

Sarah, the AKC border collie IS a fault.... oops, did I say that? Bad me.














But to hear that some show border collies don't know what to do with sheep is just plain wrong.

Good information. I suppose they can't really breed *for* it because it won't be long until the dog's feet are perpendicular to the body. I like their breeding model- if it works, breed it because it's obviously good. If it doesn't work either because it mentally cannot or physically cannot (or both), don't breed it.


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## Andaka

> Quote: I like their breeding model- if it works, breed it because it's obviously good. If it doesn't work either because it mentally cannot or physically cannot (or both), don't breed it.


And yet the working line Border Collies often have spooky temperaments,. Which is OK for most of the dogs as they are workers only, not pets. Most of the AKC show line Border Collies have New Zealand BC's up close in their pedigrees. That is where the large bone and heavy coats originated.


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## DianaM

Nothing wrong with large bone and heavy coat- but everything wrong with that if it's all that they breed for (and they're all starting to look the same). I like how the working BC has such a wide range of type so long as they can do what they were bred to do. As for spooky temperament, that's too bad. I haven't met many working borders but those I have met aren't spooky at all, but they are very on edge. Not in a bad way, but in a "I have so much energy that I just don't know what to do with myself and I'm a little twitchy" kind of way. Completely approachable, so not at all fearful. I don't think they know what an off button is, though!

I do feel this is a breed of dog that shouldn't be owned by most people (and I know I couldn't give a good BC what it needs with my current schedule though I *love* them). However the AKC seems determined to make it otherwise. Like with GSDs, there should not be people breeding lower drive dogs to fit a pet market. The GSD is the GSD and if you cannot handle one as they're supposed to be, then find a different breed. Same with border collies, poodles, setters, mastiffs, JRTs, etc. I do think they should work out any flaws in temperament, of course. Kind of hard to keep a border collie on its sheep farm when the world is short on sheep farms and dogs have to be out in public!


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## DianaM

Also want to add that I'm sure you know I'm no fan at all of the show ring, so I'm quite biased.







Whether it's the SV, AKC, KC, or whatnot, what the entire showring experience has done to our beloved breeds is a shame. I don't think I'll ever forget the expressions of anger on the ladies' faces on the documentary of the UK's Kennel Club's practices- deliberately breeding dogs with brain/skull disorders just because they look good in the ring, and it seems that all levels involved knew about it and ignored it. Daphne, I know that not everyone involved in showing is like this, your program is absolutely a testament to that, but when breed clubs fight *against* AKC recognition and even force withdrawal from the AKC, I think there is good reason to be concerned. I will give them credit for all the good they've done, and I know it's not really the AKC forcing all the bizarre changes in breeds, it's the judges and the breeders and the handlers.


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## FlyByNight

Regarding temperament in working sheepdogs.... it's been a topic of much discussion with USBCHA/ISDS-type trialers and shepherds recently. 

They keep wondering where people got the idea that BC's should be hectic, spazzy dogs who can never settle. While they certainly acknowledge that their dogs are high-demand, and high-energy for the avg. pet owner, when they're not working, the dogs are expected to be able to control themselves on the farm or in the house w/o going completely nuts. A farmer doesn't have time to deal with a neurotic, crazy dog. He's got a farm to run.

The sheepdog folks have actually noticed an increase in neurotic, busy dogs in recent years, particularly in agility lines, which they term "sport collies." They seem to be seeing a lot of dogs without impulse control coming from agility breeders. They also are of the feeling that the "crazy dog!" reputation the BC has received in recent years may have done more harm than good ... they see pet people who, instead of curbing bad habits and neuroses in their dogs, allow them to persist because "that's what Border Collies do." 

As far as spookiness, that seems to be a mixed batch. Some seem shy, some seem simply reserved and aloof, and some are very social. The last time I was at a USBCHA trial, there was one little female who made her way to every person in the crowd and sat down, very politely, next to their leg looking for pats. And some shepherds are more tolerant of a softer, more nervous dog than others. 

They are definitely a special breed, who need special handlers ... but they're not a working Malinois (ask the sheepdog people what they think of them! now -those- are high-demand dogs).


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## DianaM

Sarah, what an informative post. 



> Quote:The sheepdog folks have actually noticed an increase in neurotic, busy dogs in recent years, particularly in agility lines, which they term "sport collies." They seem to be seeing a lot of dogs without impulse control coming from agility breeders. They also are of the feeling that the "crazy dog!" reputation the BC has received in recent years may have done more harm than good ... they see pet people who, instead of curbing bad habits and neuroses in their dogs, allow them to persist because "that's what Border Collies do."


Very interesting. I know of someone with aussies for agility- they allow very bad behavior to persist in the name of not killing drive for agility.







Do you have any links to pertinent articles or discussion? I'm interested in learning more.


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## FlyByNight

Hey there Diana, I sent you a PM.


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## DianaM

I didn't get it.







I wonder if I'm missing some PMs. Let me clear out my box a little.


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## DianaM

I cleared out a ton of PMs. Try again?


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## FlyByNight

Tried again! Hopefully it will go through this time ......


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## DianaM

Got it! Wonder what happened. I was under 50 PMs. I cleared enough to get to only a page's worth of PMs, under 20. Good info, thanks.


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## DianaM

From what I read, the same problem the BCs are having are the same problem in the GSD breed: people who breed for show or sport only with little regard for the true dog. GSD sport dogs are kept kenneled all the time except for training, well known breeders implore puppy owners to not let anyone else play with the dog or even touch the dog, and the dogs are bred to be "points dogs." BYB dogs are still BYB dogs, hit or miss but mostly miss. I guess with BCs it's the same, just instead of schutzhund, paste in agility or flyball. Heck, an entire breed was born dedicated just to flyball (borderjack). What use is flyball? Why create a breed designed to run over a few jumps, grab a tennis ball, then run back as fast as possible? 

Show or sport, once anyone starts breeding with such narrow-minded goals, problems happen. This is why I love and applaud breeders like Chris Wild, Daphne, Umzilla (Fritz's owner), Dee, and so on. They all have their ideas of what a GSD should be but those are the details- the meat and potatoes of their programs are dogs that look good, function well, able to perform, and be great family pets. I read a breeder's website today that touted they focus on things that many breeders apparently don't, and each of the four or five characteristics listed had to do with movement (flying trot). What about health? Temperament? Intelligence?


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:I'm told that the Germans don't care either way about cow hocks and that in many working versions of other breeds it is desired for the dog's ability to make quick turns
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting! I didn't know that cow-hocks could be a good thing.
Click to expand...

Diana, I've always been REALLY turned off by cow hocks in ANY type of GSD. I asked my breeder, b/c I wanted to look for a dog that would not be cow hocked (like my Kenya, none whatsoever), but she said the Germans don't care either way so getting a dog not cow hocked might just be luck. She said it makes them more agile. At that point I wondered if that's just what people were making up to justify it, but then I had a long convo with a friend who is into Great Pyrs. She bought a nice show Pyr and eventually had him neutered b/c among other things, he is cow hocked. She said working Pyr people don't care, maybe even LIKE this, she said they can turn easier/more quickly. Of course in the show ring they think it's icky.

So I dunno. I still do not like cow hocks, but I guess there are other more important aspects to the dog's conformation.


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## DianaM

Lies, I agree, I don't like the look of cow hocks either. Then again, most GSDs with noticeable cow hocking have it REALLY bad. I guess I am used to seeing that along with "floppy rear syndrome" in either of the showlines. Maybe it's that combination that makes it look extra ugly.


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## Grims

Seeing a dog like that reminds me of guys who take a a truck built for utility and drop it down 2 inches from the ground with 30" wheels, completely destroying the purpose it was designed for.


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## DianaM

Or those pickup trucks that are 1/2" above the ground. I laugh my butt off when they hit a tiny bump and scrape the trucks' undersides!







Morons!


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## DancingCavy

I always thought cow hocks were undesireable too until I spoke with my former dog trainer. Working BC people prefer the cowhocks because it does help the dog turn faster. Cowhocks have never really bothered me aesthetically. And now I think they're just fine.


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## FlyByNight

Nature itself favors a cow hock ... wolves are cow hocked, and regularly travel many miles a day at a ground-eating, energy efficient trot in search of prey. 

African Wild Dogs, who utilize a hunting technique of running down prey until the prey is exhausted, are quite cow-hocked and also slightly easty-westy in front (which would concur with one of the researchers at Wolf Park's observation that successful lure coursers often have dogs with slightly E-W fronts). 

Coyotes, foxes, and other wild canids also exhibit cow hocks. 

I don't mind a moderate cow-hock in any dog. My family's GSD from Seeing Eye lines is slightly cow-hocked, and he's always been very agile. 

I often wonder how much of these standards are purely arbitrary, and how much genuinely came from a place of functionality. I have serious doubts about how much angulation is really that beneficial in the rear, for example. 










ETA: Sled dogs are often quite cow hocked (think Alaskan Husky).


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## Liesje

Thanks for more info on cow hocks. Makes sense to me and I'm glad is corroborated in nature. Cow hocks like in the photo of the wolf I probably would not notice immediately. I still don't like the look when it's so bad the hocks make a 90 degree corner like an inverted V.


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## DianaM

What Lies said. A little cow-hocking and a little east-west isn't bad, but it's when the paws are turned out like an overbred pit bull and the hocks look like they're barely supporting the dog's rump that I find issue. 

http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/american%20vrs%20german.htm
Though I hardly agree with the article, there is a photo of a very cow-hocked GSD. This looks too extreme to me, IMO.


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## Liesje

Yeah that's a little much! Not sure about that site though. They mention the dog is "extremely dysplastic". Now in the Sieger rings the dogs need certain hip ratings to be elligible for V-ratings. I wonder what kind of show that dog was in? No offence to Mexico City but I'm not sure it's a mecca of world class German shepherd dogs.


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## FlyByNight

Agreed - too much of either E-W or cow hocking is detrimental to the animal and hinders movement. When it becomes something the dog has to compensate for in order to keep up, it's become too extreme. Of course in nature, this takes care of itself ..... which is why moderate structures prevail.


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## DianaM

Lies, exactly. Good photo, poor site, IMO. I like how one part of the article implores readers to defend the GSD as "our breed" aganist German breeding. I think they forgot that they're breeding GERMAN shepherd dogs.









Sarah, I agree. Wolves and African wild dogs have some of the best endurance of the canines and probably are around the top for the animal world. No good endurance trotter has structure considered ideal by those who put everything they have into the exaggerated "flying trot."


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## Liesje

I made a thread once asking about the proportions of the GSD and got some good info but a lot of it was GSD people/sites explaining the GSD, I was more interested in knowing WHY exactly the rectangular proportion would be better than a more square dog like a Malinois? It seems to me most wild dogs are more square. I've always wondered why the GSD is not (I'm not saying I believe square is better, I truly wonder and haven't really found a decent comparison).


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## DianaM

I think the rectangular proportion came into play with the trotting structure. A square dog with a trotter's angulation would not function well, either because of wasting energy or not having an effective gait or a nice gait. I like GSDs that are a bit rectangular but I do not like dogs that make dachshunds look short.


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## Grims

From a purely observational point of view i would think wild dogs would be more square for hunting, so they can make more agile turns. Where as the GSD wasn't bred to hunt.


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## DianaM

Actually, a GSD is sort of bred to hunt. Thinking outside the box of trotting for miles in the search for prey, running long distances to bring down prey, and fighting down the prey, we see that GSDs are bred to trot up and down huge flocks to act as a "living fence," they also must run quickly after a perpetrator, then they must fight the perpetrator. They may have to climb up and over objects, jump over and through objects, all things which aren't so different from the act of hunting.

There is no reason for a GSD to not be able to "turn on a dime and toss back nine cents change" except for the extreme breeding for structure that makes for a beautiful sidegait but a wobbly "everything else."


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: FlyByNight
> While they certainly acknowledge that their dogs are high-demand, and high-energy for the avg. pet owner, when they're not working, the dogs are expected to be able to control themselves on the farm or in the house w/o going completely nuts. A farmer doesn't have time to deal with a neurotic, crazy dog. He's got a farm to run.












Here was my BC as a pup. His parents were working (cattle) dogs. As you can tell by lookng at him, they were NOT bred to look like "cookie cutter" dogs and he would have been laughed out of the show ring. (If he had even been registered, which he wasn't.)

Daytime:










Nighttime:


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## DianaM

Awwwww so CUTE! What a strange looking satellite dish, though.


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## IliamnasQuest

Interesting topic!

My young GSD is cowhocked - not badly (she's grown out of some of it) but it has always bothered me as I've never had a cowhocked dog before. But I will say that she is fast, quick on a turn, quick to stop (she can stop faster than any other dog I have), and has never missed a step. She wasn't even very clumsy as a puppy. I've read that many of the German lines tend toward cowhocks although it's not something I'd ever run into before. Since she moves fine I haven't worried much about it (what would be the use of worrying, right?).

On the subject of square bodies: in Chows, the breed standard calls for a square body (as measured from tip of chest bone to tip of hip bone, and floor to top of withers). The truly square chows do NOT move well. They can do the short, stilted trot but to run and spin and leap - they just don't do nearly as well as ones that have a tiny bit more length to them. Khana is slightly longer than is desired but it adds athleticism to her that is sadly missing in most of the show chows. And in talking to some long-time chow breeders, I'm hearing that they're starting to put more emphasis on how the dog is able to function (thank doG!) and thinking that a bit more length is better for the dog.

I don't really consider a malinois a square dog - at least not compared to a show chow. I do think that some GSDs tend to be too long, but a square dog can't move like a dog with a bit longer body. I also think that the angulation of the hind legs has a lot to do with the ability to turn and stop - too much angulation, and the leg doesn't have the physical strength to do anything that requires intense stress. This is why we see so many of those over-angulated dogs that trip and stumble. They don't have the musculature and ligament structure to handle the amount of angulation.

It's interesting having the two breeds that I currently have. Shepherds are longer dogs with considerable angulation. Chows are square dogs with straight back legs. To look at a chow's hind assembly compared to a shepherd's is like looking at day and night. But it's appropriate for each breed, too. Khana, my chow, is extremely athletic and leaps, spins, and chases Tazer (the young GSD) all over. But Tazer can lower herself to the ground and zoom past Khana because she's got the build to do that (unless her tail sticks out too far, then Khana grabs on .. *L*). You see a lot of difference in their movement when you get to watch them side by side.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## mjbgsd

I love reading the comments here. 
I also didn't know that about how the Germans don't care to much about somewhat cow-hocked dogs. Both my dogs are somewhat cow-hocked but you wouldn't notice unless that's what you were looking for.


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## wolfstraum

Cow hocked is different than "walking on their hocks"

think of "knock knee-ed" - then put that on back legs....that is "cow hocked" - makes the paws and lower leg "easty westy" - not break down the joints into parallel to the ground!

"Walking on hocks" is when there is no delineiation (sp?) between the pastern and the cannon bone....the foot, pastern and cannon all lie nearly vertical to the ground, and the hock joint then breaks the angle to the stifle....not sure if that makes sense to non horse people! LOL!!

The pastern is like a shock absorber - and that is the section of the leg that should bend and give when the animal moves....

And no - NO dog is supposed to walk on it's hocks - the whole joint assembly is designed to work a certain way, and it is unnatural and manmade - sort of like what showhorse people do to Tennessee Walkers for the ring!

Lee


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## euphoricgear

hi new here, dont really understand if the video is suppose to be ok to have a dog run like that or not

trudy - it seems like its not really running on it's hind feet. so the pressure on his legs would be bad right?


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## trudy

hi and welcome here. This is an awesome site with lots of info and great help. I am relatively new here too and that video is how a shepherd IS supposed to move. He was a great dog and that is used to show how they are to move. I am sure you will notice a split in what everyone likes but I think all groups and sub groups will agree he is a great mover. Again Welcome


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote:I am sure you will notice a split in what everyone likes


And ain't that the truth!!!


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## BlackGSD

Actually the dog in the video dog IS using his hind FEET. It is just hard to see because of the grass. With the dogs being talked about ("hock walkers") the dogs whole leg from the hock (the pointy joint above the "ankle") to the foot touches the ground. THAT is not "typical" in the general dog population.


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## chruby

> Originally Posted By: trudycheck this video
> 
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0


That dog is a freak.......


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## Vandal

> Quote:That dog is a freak.......


What makes you say that? Just curious why you have this opinion.


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## trudy

Sorry I think he moves real well. I think he is Seiger VA Dingo Haus Gero Sch3 from I think 1983? Someone can correct me here. This video is often used to show correct movement for German Shepherds.


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## emjworks05

I was also wondering why he is a freak?


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## chruby

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:That dog is a freak.......
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you say that? Just curious why you have this opinion.
Click to expand...

because it appears to be walking on it's hocks. Every dog I have seen that looks like that has trouble with any type of activity that involves being agile. Just my observation......

I viewed the video a second time and yes at times it seems the hock is not 100% down but there seems to be times where the whole thing touches the ground. Maybe it would have been better to have the video shot on shorter grass or dirt..







I have seen worse in Am showlines though.....


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## BlackGSD

I think you might want to look a 3rd time.









It doesn't look to me like the hock EVER touches the GROUND. It might tough the GRASS but the grass looks pretty long to me.


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## chruby

I did look a 3rd time just for you







and it still appeart TO ME that the dogs right hock touches the ground at times. That's just what I see. This is not the type of dog I would want but to each his own. Not trying to ruffle any feathers here.


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## BlackGSD

No prob.








(Not my "cup of tea" either.) I am of the DDR/Czech "camp".


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## Superpup

Does anyone have a video of a working line gaiting like this? I would like to compare the movement!!


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## DianaM

This dog actually does move quite well. You want to see extreme? 

http://www.melanashepherds.com/smallmv.jpg
http://www.shotaan.co.uk/ImagesMales/fabgait.jpg - Your back is falling down... it's about to roll away..
http://www.regencygermanshepherds.net/don_stacking_Tess.jpg (my everything hurts just looking at that.. I hope it's mostly a bad stack)
http://www.marhaven.com/BO%20gaiting%20S.M..jpg - He's completely on his hock there; no weight on the toes.

On a positive note, look at this guy! http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_6ab897f4/wp_6ab897f4.html American lines, and he kicks tail in agility! Good for him and his breeder, owner, and handler (even if they're all different or the same).









Now, onto the dog in the link, the "freak," if you will. If you pause the video at his full stride, you'll see that his rear PAW touches the ground, not at all his hock. His back is level, his reach is nice without overdoing it, and his extension of his rear leg is just right, not overdoing it or "floppy." I really do not like how, in the overdone flying trots, the dogs' rear paws flop outward and curl. It seems like there is a lot of wasted motion and energy there and it makes me think of very loose ligaments. Back to the dog in the video, it LOOKS like he sinks on his hock but if you look at his forepaws, they also disappear. What's really going on is that he's sinking into the grass. If you look closely, we always see the point of his hock just above the grass line and it is clear that his paws are on the ground and nothing more. 

Dingo, the dog in the video, is clearly a very well put-together dog with excellent movement. The ground is deceiving. I bet if he was on a harder, shorter surface, the impression would be much better.


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## Vandal

> Quote: Not trying to ruffle any feathers here.


Too late! We are already ruffled. Just kidding, I just wondered because to me, that dog moves pretty good but I see why you think he is pushing off on his hock, I had to look again to see if he was.

Here is an interesting video. Not so much about walking on hocks as it is about another part of the dog. Maybe you guys will notice what I am talking about. I guess this is considered to be one of those "improvements" the show people have come up with in their quest for......... uh......well......I am not sure what they are doing but take a look:

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=9tkOmiNGP64&feature=related

There is a certain Sea Serpent quality to the way this dog moves.


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## Chris Wild

The dog in the first video moves beautifully and shows great balance and reach, maintains a level topline and motion looks almost effortless. I'm in the camp where it seemed pretty obvious he wasn't trotting on his hocks, but on his paws.









The dog in Anne's video... now that's rather freakish and painful to watch. I knew spines were flexible, but wow, that looks so jointed the dog could be folded in half. Sea Serpent indeed......


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## Vandal

VA in Holland and Austria...V 21 in Germany...2008.


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## Chris Wild




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## chruby

The dog in the 2nd video looks really loose and it's back is roachy....not my kinda dog.....


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## Xeph

That German dog has absolutely NO front. His rear isn't bad, but that god awful ROACH (weak back in general) UGH!

I shall always <3 Dingo Haus Gero


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## DianaM

Good grief, the dog in the second video is a mess! I imagine that is what a goose-stepping camel looks like.


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## Xeph

By the way, the MarHaven bitch that was posted was the 2008 GVX


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## DianaM

> Quote:the MarHaven bitch that was posted was the 2008 GVX


Ooops, pardon me, wasn't paying attention that the black dog was a bitch. Don't get me wrong, the dog does look really nice and I like her head but I do NOT like how she's gaiting on her hock. But apparently the judges really do like that.







Shame.


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## cliffson1

the Marhaven bitch appears to be a pretty dog, but the gait is EXTREME, and doesn't look natural. I will say that her eyes and tailset don't give the impression of fear....and that's a good thing!


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: XephBy the way, the MarHaven bitch that was posted was the 2008 GVX


You mean 2007.









The 2008 GVX "HIENA GOMEZ", surprisingly is a sable.

















Stacked Pic can be seen here if anyone is interested.


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## mjbgsd

That second video.... 0___0 Poor dog, looks like it hurts.


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## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: mjbgsd looks like it hurts.


speaking of things that look like they hurt... this isnt a hock or gait issue, but OUCH!!!










is this dog considered roach-backed? or something else?


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## DancingCavy

Part of that is the dog's not standing on level ground. Her hind end is lower than her front which accentuates the oddness of it. She's probably not really that extreme.


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## Deejays_Owner

Here is the stacked picture of VA1 Dingo vom Haus Gero, the dog in the 1st Video.










And the most perfect Sieger ever bred by the Germans VA1 Fanto vom Hirschel!!


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## cliffson1

I don't know if he was the most perfect but Fanto was a very very nice dog. I have an hour video of him that includes bitework, swimming, family life, and oh could this dog sidegait. But his sidegait didn't look like the American ones, rather his back was straight while he moved and it was effortless. Also, showed him gaiting in both Seiger shows and in one (90 or 91) he actually passes the dog that was in the lead position like he was standing still and he never broke stride...the crowd went bonkers..(I had goosebumps myself...I know I've surprised some of you)...anyway I had a grandaughter out of Fanto who had very nice temperament and Frigga v Silbersee was a Fanto daughter in Jim Hill's club who had very nice working traits. Fanto was a very nice dog!!


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## Amaruq

I would take either of the two dogs Brain posted over what is showing in EITHER ring now. I still prefer my sables but....


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## Xeph

Yes Diana, I meant 2007, my bad ^_^

By the way, for those who don't know, the 2006 GVx was also a sable ^_^

And Bo (the MarHaven bitch) is certainly fearless as far as I know. I've met some MarHaven dogs, and while I've not cared for the conformation of them all, their temperaments have been impeccable. I thought Boss was a rather nice dog, and they have owned/produced two Grand Victor's and a Grand Victrix


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeNow I don't have a problem with the more moderate American show line dogs (not my cup of tea but my dogs are probably not their cup of tea so to each her own), so I'm not totally against this split in the breed per se, but I was at a show last weekend and this GSD puppy walked by, even knowing that there would be American dogs present I thought this dog had a neurological disorder before I figured out he was just an extreme Am line dog. He was walking on his hocks, dragging his feet, and when he stopped, his rear sort of quivered.


That reminds me of the first agility class I took. It was with my Golden Retriever but it was held by a GSD club so there were a lot of Shepherds there. Most of the Shepherds in the class had NO idea where their rear ends were and had a lot of problems with falling off the dogwalk (rear end first). I don't know if that is normal for GSDs? They did an exercise where they have the dogs walk across a ladder laid down on the ground, my Golden had no trouble with it but a lot of the Shepherds were tripping across the ladder (poor awareness of their back feet.)




> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/american%20vrs%20german.htm
> Though I hardly agree with the article, there is a photo of a very cow-hocked GSD. This looks too extreme to me, IMO.


My foster dog kinda looks like that, especially when he's walking... His front end is pretty straight though.











I don't mind that so much, what bothers me is when Shepherds have really weak, down pasterns.


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## DianaM

A lot of dogs simply don't have "rear end awareness" so the ladder exercise is beneficial for all dogs.







It's not just a shepherd thing but I suspect having a really loose, overangulated rear attached to a long body makes it a bit more difficult.


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## Tisro

Jazy's mom said:


> I will probably get flamed for this by some of the show people, but I think this is the most disgusting and cruel thing. I can not believe that anyone in their right mind would purposely breed a dog to have the severe angulations that force dogs to walk on their hocks. There is not a single other breed of dog that I know of that looks like this. You would think that mother nature knows what she is doing.
> 
> I have heard show people say "wow, look at him run isn't it just beautiful" when watching a showline dog run. All I can think of is how pain that must be for the dog and how many problems is he/she going to have down the road. It literally makes me sick.
> 
> There is someone in my local GSD club that has a dog whose back legs practically cross each other when he walks. It looks like he is going to trip over his own legs. No one else in the club seems to think there is anything wrong with this. I think it is just sad.


I could not agree with you more. I think jail time should be handed to breeders who intentionally breed to basically handicap a dog. Yes... handicap. Nature did not intend for those dogs to hock walk. Pathetic humans did. Period.


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## ksotto333

Just so you know this is a very old thread.


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## WIBackpacker

I'm closing this thread, it's 12 years old.


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