# Mayor: Let's Ban All Dogs from Public Events



## AbbyK9

In response to a little boy getting mauled by a (leashed) dog at the Watertown, NY Farmer's Market, Mayor Graham would like to ban all dogs from all public events.

Mayor Graham's View: Let's Pass a Sensible Law on Dogs at Public Events



> Very simply _*any event permitted by the City for public assembly*_ (fairs, festivals, concerts, etc) on public property should ban, or at least carry a requirement dogs and other similar animals be either muzzled or caged while within the confines of the event. This would allow the holder of the event to concurrently ban or restrict dogs with the certainty there is municipal backing.
> 
> Signs could be posted and reasonable people would comply...Of course no one is going to hassle a service dog or the Yorkie tucked into someone's Louis Vuitton.


I think this is a dumb reaction to an isolated incident and have commented on the blog saying so. Not sure if they'll approve my comment since they are moderating comments, but we'll see.

I've also summed it up on my blog if anyone wants to hear my thoughts on the matter.  (Link in signature.)


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## selzer

I love the idea that they will create a law banning all dogs, or making them all wear muzzles but then say they will not bother Yorkies in purses. What a dweeb. To heck with responding here, if that is your town, shoot him an e-mail telling him exactly why you will not be voting for him in the next election. Might mention your family and dog-friends.


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## Franksmom

The comment about the Yorkie tucked in a "Louis Vuitton" purse really says alot to me and shows where her loyalties lie. (and I'm not talking about the Yorkie part) If I tuck it in my Walmart bag will they still leave me alone


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## CelticGlory

That's just crazy, aren't some "public" events dog friendly? Are even for dogs? I know we have some here, I mean the dog was on leash, some people.... The Mayor should have said all aggressive dogs or untrained dogs (leash reactive and no basic training in general) should be banned from all public events.


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## Germanshepherdlova

My college held a walk for breast cancer, and asked us to get sponsors and so on. After I gave them a donation, I asked if I could bring one of my dogs with me, and the lady sponsoring the event said, "Uh, I don't know." Then she turns to the other lady and asks her what she thinks of dogs there and the lady says, "Oh, no! No dogs allowed." So I said ok then, count me out, I am not going to walk and walk for miles without letting my dog enjoy the walk. 

Some people have no concept of canine behavior, and think that NO dogs are safe around the general public. Sad.


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## sweetGSD

That sounds like another silly law!


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## GSDElsa

I'm shocked that someone campaining for mayor of a relatively poor city would say that they would not harass purse dogs in $1200 purses. Way to alienate your base!

The whole thing is stupid, but that made is way over the top.


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## NancyJ

It is pretty sad that just about any ******* yahoo can carry a concealed weapon but you can't go places with a pet dog.


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## Andaka

jocoyn said:


> It is pretty sad that just about any ******* yahoo can carry a concealed weapon but you can't go places with a pet dog.


So I can bring my gun?!? oke:


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## NancyJ

Andaka said:


> So I can bring my gun?!? oke:


Yeah and it can even be loaded. Sherriff Andy Taylor retired and Barney Fife gets to keep the bullet in the gun now.


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## AbbyK9

> It is pretty sad that just about any ******* yahoo can carry a concealed weapon but you can't go places with a pet dog.


Not in New York they can't. New York requires that you obtain a permit to even own a pistol - prior to buying one. Once you've been issued a permit (which takes between 6 and 18 months, on average), you can buy a pistol but it has to be entered onto your permit before you can even take it home. Even if you've already paid for it. And that's not for carrying, just for owning a pistol in your home, taking it to the range, etc. 

New York's permits don't just take long, there's also an application fee, and a fingerprinting fee, and whatever the heck else fee the state comes up with. And then, a judge gets to decide whether you're allowed to have a permit or not. (New York is a "may" issue state, meaning they may or may not ... up to the judge.) Oh, and they don't issue them to non-citizens (not even to legal permanent residents who've been in the country for decades ...) and they don't issue them to people who reside in NY on, say, military orders but pay taxes in another state.

Just FYI being that we're talking about NY.


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## selzer

AbbyK9 said:


> Not in New York they can't. New York requires that you obtain a permit to even own a pistol - prior to buying one. Once you've been issued a permit (which takes between 6 and 18 months, on average), you can buy a pistol but it has to be entered onto your permit before you can even take it home. Even if you've already paid for it. And that's not for carrying, just for owning a pistol in your home, taking it to the range, etc.
> 
> New York's permits don't just take long, there's also an application fee, and a fingerprinting fee, and whatever the heck else fee the state comes up with. And then, a judge gets to decide whether you're allowed to have a permit or not. (New York is a "may" issue state, meaning they may or may not ... up to the judge.) Oh, and they don't issue them to non-citizens (not even to legal permanent residents who've been in the country for decades ...) and they don't issue them to people who reside in NY on, say, military orders but pay taxes in another state.
> 
> Just FYI being that we're talking about NY.


Are they ok with shotguns?


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## PaddyD

It is typical for law enforcement to let the tail wag the dog.
They put up stop signs at intersections AFTER a fatal accident even
though no sign would have prevented it. 
They make laws AFTER a once-in-a hundred-years incident occurs.
So all of the normal, law-abiding people have to suffer ever after
because of one careless, STOOOOPID, jackarse.


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## AbbyK9

> Are they ok with shotguns?


Most shotguns and most rifles are perfectly legal in the state of New York with certain "New York compliant" restrictions such as on magazines and cosmetic features. Folding or telescoping stocks on rifles are pretty much out, for example. You have to be 18 or older to purchase, with paperwork and background check, obviously, like in the rest of the country.

... but it's not like you're going to carry a rifle or shotgun like you would a concealed pistol.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

> Of course no one is going to hassle a service dog or the Yorkie tucked into someone's Louis Vuitton.


It would be hilarious if a bunch of medium/large breed owners showed up to an event with their dogs in really really big purses lol

Seriously though I think it's dumb to say some sizes are ok, but not all. I'm way more afraid of getting bit by a little dog than a big dog.


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## selzer

PaddyD said:


> It is typical for law enforcement to let the tail wag the dog.
> They put up stop signs at intersections AFTER a fatal accident even
> though no sign would have prevented it.
> They make laws AFTER a once-in-a hundred-years incident occurs.
> So all of the normal, law-abiding people have to suffer ever after
> because of one careless, STOOOOPID, jackarse.



Uhm, law enforcement enforces laws, they do not make them. They do not put up stop signs, the village council would vote on recommendations. Law enforcement makes no laws, though after an incident they may increase their presence and go after violators of existing laws with more zeal.


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## AbbyK9

I posted an update to this in a separate threat but it was closed - supposedly for being a "duplicate" ....

Anyway, Watertown's city council is currently reading and considering "Roxy's Law" - legislation that would ban dogs from ALL public outdoor events (parades, farmers' markets, fairs, etc.) as well as from within 20 feet of any public pools or playgrounds in the town.

This would make it impossible for responsible pet owners to socialize their dogs in public as they would no longer be allowed to attend any outdoor events in any public parks or areas, nor would they be able to be within 20 feet of any playgrounds.

Here's an article regarding the proposed law - 
Watertown Daily Times | Watertown City Council get draft legislation on banning dogs at public events

And here's a petition to stop this idiocy -
http://www.change.org/petitions/wate...-public-events


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## chelle

Can you post a link to the original article? I'm curious to know about the specifics of the child being "mauled" ? The last link you posted said the child needed 105 stitches, whew.

With that said, I HATE this legislation.

One of the comments posted to your last link says it all to me: 

"In my opinion, without being present at the incident, the child and the dog are the innocent ones here. *The owner and the parent share responsibility for what happened*..."

Amen.


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## AbbyK9

Chelle - I believe this is the initial article. (Graphic picture of the little boy.)
Watertown Daily Times | Little boy’s life difficult after dog attack at Watertown farmers market

Then here's the one where the mother files the dangerous dog complaint
Watertown Daily Times | Mother of child attacked by dog files complaint

I think this quote from the complaint is the closest we will come to finding out what actually happened - 



> In her complaint, she wrote that she asked the dog’s owner {...} if it was okay for the boy to pet “Breaker,” and she said yes. Ms. Duger pet the leashed dog first and allowed him to do so, she wrote. “*Then the dog turned around to face some other people and my son began to pet his back*,”


Emphasis mine. It was then that the dog turned around and bit the little boy.


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## Rerun

I will never understand why people allow their little kids to pet strange dogs. Yappy ankle biters aside, really, an american bulldog? That is a big dog. I can not even begin to imagine letting our son pet some strange dog, much less a big dog like a GSD or any other breed.


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## onyx'girl

I think that schools should have an education day on pet care, manners and husbandry. I know the schools are already overloaded with teaching, but it obviously doesn't come from home in many cases. If all young children were taught how to (not)approach animals and show respect to them the bite incidents would be reduced. 
I use to bring in my parrots to the 2nd grade class and give the kids hands on experience with exotic birds. 

I sure hope there are enough voices to stop this banning in Watertown...if it gets passed there, no stopping other communities from the same legislation.


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## selzer

My sister has no dog. She takes her girls to pet stores to pet dogs. She has brought them to my house to socialize puppies. She takes them to Grandma's house to pet Cujo. I have had her kids at a carnival and someone was there with a beagle pup, and I asked if the girls could pet it, and they did, and it was good, no one got bit. 

If you do not have a dog, maybe you would allow your kids to pet one that you did not know if you asked and got permission first. 

My sister drove all the way out here so that she could let her kids pet tiger cubs.


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## Rerun

I wouldn't consider playing with a litter of puppies (which yes may nip and bite but won't cause permanant harm) and petting grandmas dog the same as a 2 y/o petting a grown american bulldog at a loud busy event in town.

And no I definitely wouldn't let my son pet a strange dog in a petstore. I would, however, let him play with puppies at the age your sisters kids are and he can already pet grandmas dogs so that wouldn't be an issue either. People are not realistic about their dogs. 99.9% of society thinks their dog would NEVER bite someone. They honestly think that, because they are naive and don't know the signs of trouble.


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## AbbyK9

> I sure hope there are enough voices to stop this banning in Watertown


If you are one of those voices, PLEASE please please sign the petition linked further up.


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## chelle

AbbyK9 said:


> Chelle - I believe this is the initial article. (Graphic picture of the little boy.)
> Watertown Daily Times | Little boy’s life difficult after dog attack at Watertown farmers market
> 
> Then here's the one where the mother files the dangerous dog complaint
> Watertown Daily Times | Mother of child attacked by dog files complaint
> 
> I think this quote from the complaint is the closest we will come to finding out what actually happened -
> 
> Emphasis mine. It was then that the dog turned around and bit the little boy.


Wow. Just wow. The mother asked for permission and petted the dog herself first. The articles states other children were petting the dog, without issue. So mama did her duty that way. Where the child "went wrong" was supposedly when he petted the back of the dog. 

It is interesting that the owner had been previously cited for "a dog that caused an injury." I'd like to know *a lot more* about that case. That indicates to me the owner was quite aware the dog was capable and willing to "attack."

At first I was pretty upset with the child's mother... now I'm tilting towards being far more upset with the owner.

I did sign the petition and left a comment. Seeing that poor babies face torn up like that was horrific, but (Lord strike me down), it is still not a good enough reason to strike ALL dogs from ALL public gatherings.


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## Jessiewessie99

Ugh. Great more stupid laws because of stupid idiot owners.


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## AbbyK9

> At first I was pretty upset with the child's mother... now I'm tilting towards being far more upset with the owner.


I don't know ... I am upset equally with the dog's owner and the child's mother. But like you, I would love to hear more about the story. There is one comment underneath the first link (the one with the photo of the little boy) from someone who apparently knows both the dog and his owner and was there when this occurred, which paints a pretty different picture of what happened.

Quoting from the comment below -



> As for the farmers market incident - The dog was laying down, when the child, left his mothers side, and ran to the dog. The child approached at a 45 degree angle to the dogs front and startled the animal. The dog, from a laying position, had only moved about a foot from its resting position to bite the boy. Yes, the mother and child were petting the dog - but 5 minutes prior to the bite. The owner was ticketed- but after THIS incident.


Sounds like the owner has never been ticketed until after this happened?


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## The Packman

I say muzzle all Mayors !


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## AbbyK9

There is a journalist in Watertown who will be covering the story and hopefully it will make it into this weekend's edition of the paper. Apparently, they've gotten quite a few calls from people who are upset about the proposed ban because they would no longer be able to bring their dogs to events with them.

I know Mrs.K talked to the journalist and I tried to talk to her as well but only got her voice mail. Maybe she will call me back.

I did learn, however, that the ban would exclude any types of dogs that are "working" - Service Dogs (of course, because they are allowed no matter what) but also Therapy Dogs, Search Dogs, etc. This would be similar to NY's law that waives the dog license fee for any of those "working dogs".

The problem with that is, how do they plan on enforcing this? Service Dogs don't and aren't required to carry any kind of ID. I don't know about SAR dogs. We have ID cards from TDI for Therapy Dogs but again ... does every Therapy organization or group? And what's going to stop someone saying, "Hey, these categories are excluded and my dog is a ... (insert excluded category here)."

It also is going to stink for someone who is, for example, TRAINING a future Service Dog or Therapy Dog or SAR dog. It's in the training that this exposure to lots of places and people needs to take place. And the ban would essentially prevent people from doing that. 

Of course, if they pass the ban, I'll vote with my money and attend events outside of Watertown, not in the city. IF the city doesn't want me there with my dog, I"m going to assume they don't want me there with my money, either.


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## GSDElsa

Well, the first problem I see with SAR dogs is what do you do with them when they are in training? That's a horribly long process and these dogs go everywhere.

I am not "upset" with the mother, although she should know better. If other kids were petting it and then she pet the dog I can see where it would be very easy to convince yourself all is OK. I don't think she's irresponsible, but I wish more people would just ignore strange dogs rather than try to interact with them. 

I feel like I get the extreme--either parents and kids are terrified of Elsa or the kids want to climb all over her. I'm lucky that she has some kind of weird obsession with them and absolutely loves them. Medo scares me around kids because he's so wild. I cringe if I'm somewhere and I see one beelining it towards me.


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## Liesje

Maybe it was just an accident? I think some bites are just that, an accident. Now everyone knows better, but banning all dogs from all events? Come on...


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## chelle

AbbyK9 said:


> Sounds like the owner has never been ticketed until after this happened?


Mmm I'll have to go back and look again. To me it is one thing to have a bite history and still bring a dog into a crowded environment with children and perhaps another to have it happen due to startling the dog. Yet I can't even work that out in my mind. :help: That child didn't get just a startled bite reaction. He got mauled. Sure wish we had information about the dog's history. Guess we can't know that. Maybe it will come out as this gets more attention.



GSDElsa said:


> I am not "upset" with the mother, although she should know better. If other kids were petting it and then she pet the dog I can see where it would be very easy to convince yourself all is OK. I don't think she's irresponsible, but I wish more people would just ignore strange dogs rather than try to interact with them.


This is pretty much where I'm at. People want their children to interact with dogs (well, many do) and children love dogs. So if you, as a parent, pet the dog, feel it is safe, see the dog being petted by other children, you could very easily feel safe about it. I could have been that parent when I was young, except for the part of the child running up to the dog. I would like to say I would never have allowed that, but, then again, children that young run and dart around, even if you're the most vigilent parent.

Sigh.


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## selzer

Now I have seen threads where people complain about people saying things like, "No Johnny, that is a big dog, he might bite you."

We complain when people rush across the street to avoid our dogs. 

Nobody HAS to allow their vulnerable young child to be chow for any dog. But the parent ASKED if it was ok, and other children were petting it, she petted it. And then the dog attacked the baby. 

If the person was ticketed prior for an event with that dog, no way should the person have had the dog where there are tons of people, and no way should the person have said ok. 

If the person was ticketed for an event AFTER the unprovoked attack on the baby, that is just as bad.

The owner should probably be facing jail time for being criminally negligent for one of the attacks. 

I think it is true that people think their dog would never, and sometimes they are just plain wrong. That is tragic. If the dog mauled the 2 year old's face, it should be put down. I know that is not popular easy. A dog is a dog and all that. I would probably not put a dog down for dog-aggression, even a nasty attack. And I might work with a dog that bites an adult for some reason, but a dog that will significantly bite a small child, toddler, baby? Sorry, the dog has something wrong in the head. The only reason I would pardon the dog that I can think of is if the dog was having a seizure or just coming out of a seizure. If the baby fell on the dog and hurt the dog while the dog was asleep, I would understand a startled bite, but not a mauling. 

This kind of stuff really hurts all dog owners in one way or another. A bite is bad. A bad bite is very bad. Two or more bites/separate incidents is just inexcusable.


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## Chicagocanine

They already don't allow dogs at the farmer's markets where I live, and also some of the city events and fairs/festivals do not allow dogs.


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## SummerwoodSoaps

I am a vendor at farmers market and I often take Stella with me and I am not the only vendor who does. A lot of people bring their dogs to the market, infarct we have a few vendors who make a lot of dog products like treats, sweaters and one (not me) who makes handmade glycerine dog soap. A shame that happened to that little kid. I do not blame the parent at all. I think it is the dog owners responsibility to not let their dog get overloaded and snap in public. Know you dog and if they can't handle it, don't take them out.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Geez that poor little boy. Heart breaking.

Like Selzer mentions this looks (from the extent of damage to the boy's face) like a mauling, he had the child pinned under him. 

Seems to me the dog would have been showing signs of stress or fatigue of some sort building (some warning growls or even snaps) leading up to the attack, there were no warning signs?


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## Mrs.K

yeah, it is heartbreaking what happened to that child but the rest of us shouldn't have to suffer because of one single incident. I don't know what happened but I know of one situation where a dog owner denied a child petting the dog because it's a reactive dog and the parent still insisted that his child could pet the dog with the words "It's okay..."

It isn't okay. Not ever! Some people just don't have common sense and I wouldn't be surprised if it was true that the boy ran up to the laying dog and startled the dog out of that position. The circumstances just don't matter... the dog is always going to lose even though the parent and the child are in the wrong... but none of us knows what really happened so it's all just speculation.

For the both of us, AbbyK9 and me, it would be extremely difficult, especially if the 20ft. ban would go through. Most of the training grounds would simply be off limits because there are playgrounds involved. I'd have to slap a vest on any time I go out and since my dogs are not certified yet, technically, I'd break the law. I could probably get a letter from my team coordinator, that they are team dogs but a team dog doesn't make a working search dog.


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## AbbyK9

> also some of the city events and fairs/festivals do not allow dogs.


I can understand that some events do not allow dogs - for example, the county fair does not allow dogs because of the livestock that is being shown. Which makes perfect sense. However, this is not what we are talking about with the ban that is being proposed in Watertown.

Watertown's ban would ban all dogs from all public events, regardless of what the event is or where it is held. 

I have been to many parades with my dogs and love going to them partially because I am able to bring my dogs. Parades are fantastic for socialization and also for proofing training. Where else do you get crowds, fire truck sirens, ambulance lights, costumed people, dancers, horses, bands, you name it, all at the same time? It's wonderful for working on stuff and I think it's important for dogs to exposed to such things to ensure they are well-socialized and well-trained.

Watertown would take this opportunity away from the responsible dog owners who go out and do things with their dogs, plain and simple. But they don't actually just stop there. Dogs would also be banned from playgrounds and even from coming to within 20 feet of all public playgrounds. Now, I don't have children, but many folks have both children and dogs - they would not be able to combine walking their dog with taking their child to the playground anymore because the dog would not be allowed at the playground, not even close to the playground.

Would it affect me if Watertown bans dogs? Probably not - I do not live in the city of Watertown and if my dogs were no longer welcome at Watertown events, I just wouldn't go to them. I would go to the farmer's market in Carthage instead. I'd go to parades in Carthage or Lowville. (Lowville's annual cream cheese festival allows dogs - they even have a dog contest at the event each year.)

It certainly would affect Mrs.K, however. She lives a block from where all the holiday parades start. She wouldn't even be able to walk her dogs on the city sidewalks on her normal walking route if there is an event going on, because her dogs would be banned. This is the city where she owns a home and pays taxes, yet she wouldn't be allowed to walk her dogs in her own neighborhood.

The other thing to think about is that the ban would exclude Service Dogs, Therapy Dogs, SAR dogs, police K-9's and Military Working Dogs - the same categories that do not pay a licensing fee in the state of New York. But I wonder how they plan on enforcing these rules? Last I checked, Service Dogs are not required to carry ID - so what's to stop someone from bringing a pet dog and saying, "Oh, that's my Service Dog?" After all, people do it all the time. So, either people will get away with bringing pets, or people with legitimate Service Dogs will find themselves in one more place where they're getting hassled and questioned about their dogs.

Just a couple of things to think about.


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## AbbyK9

Another thing to think about ... the proposed legislation says that dogs are allowed at events "if they are left inside vehicles." 

I don't think I have to point out all the issues with that - dogs being left inside cars if it's hot out (or very cold out) while their owners are enjoying themselves at an event or festival for a few hours. I think it would also violate NY's existing Markets & Agriculture Law that states dogs may not be left in vehicles in "extreme temperatures".


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## DharmasMom

Way to take things to the extreme. Just like BSL. Stupid, stupid, stupid.


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## AbbyK9

Here's the proposed text of the legislation. From - http://www.watertown-ny.gov/archives/30/12.5.11%20City%20Council%20Agenda.pdf



> It shall be unlawful for the owner of any dog to permit or allow such dog to be present at any “Special Event” in the City or to be upon City owned property and within 20 feet of any City owned swimming pool or playground equipment located within any City park or playground. For purposes of this section, a “Special Event” shall mean the following activities upon City owned property: The Farm & Craft Market; The 4th of July Concert at Thompson Park; or The Jefferson County Fair. A “Special Event” shall also include any other specifically approved event conducted, at least in part, upon City owned property and which will or may involve significant public assembly.
> 
> The posting of signage by the host of a Special Event, to the effect that dogs are not permitted at the Special Event, shall be presumptive evidence that said event will or may involve significant public assembly and will be conducted, at least in part, on City property.
> 
> The prohibition herein shall not apply to an owner whose dog is confined within an automobile, crate, cage or similar structure that prevents a dog from causing personal injury or damage to personal property.
> 
> The prohibition of this Section 81-5 (C) may be waived by special approval of the City Manager or his or her designee.
> 
> There shall be excluded from this section any owner of a dog which is defined under Section 108 of the New York Agriculture and Markets Law, as the same may be amended from time to time, as a guide dog, hearing dog, service dog, working search dog, therapy dog, detection dog, war dog, or any other dog which may be utilized by law enforcement agencies within the jurisdiction of the City, or which are professionally trained service animals utilized by persons with disabilities.


Note that this is the current draft, not the final proposed legislation. This was up for discussion at the city council on 5 December. One of the council members voiced some concerns about sports games -



> Council Member Smith asked about t-ball games and if a family brings a dog but is not within 20’ of playground equipment.
> 
> Mrs. Corriveau stated that if it is an organized game and they asked to use the City field, dogs can not be brought there.


So not only would this law ban dogs from events and near playgrounds, dog owners could no longer bring their dogs to their children's organized games - T-ball, softball, soccer, etc. if they are played on city fields.


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## DharmasMom

I think they should ban all children from public events but allow the dogs.


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## LaRen616

DharmasMom said:


> I think they should ban all children from public events but allow the dogs.


:thumbup:


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## x0emiroxy0x

I read a few articles on this that mentioned there was a GROUP of young children petting the dog when the boy and his mother approached. The mother said she pet the dog first, then it says when they boy pet the dog "from behind" the dog "turned around" and attacked.

Is it weird to anyone else that the dog was surrounded by a group of kids being pet, the mother pet it, then the dog suddenly decided to attack the little boy?

If the little boy was petting from behind, obviously the mother was to the side of the dog and it could see her.

MY mother taught me *don't approach horses from behind or you will get kicked and don't pet strangers dogs unless you ask first.

*This situation is an example of an idiot parent, not a mean dog.

I NEVER got bit by a dog...because I NEVER pet a dog without asking and NEVER pet a dog that had its ears pinned back, wasn't looking at me, or was tensed up.

COMMON SENSE PEOPLE!!! 

WHy do you think restaurants are banning kids? It isn't that kids have gotten worse through the ages....it is because parenting skills are NONEXISTENT nowadays!!

*rant over*


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## LARHAGE

You don't approach horses from behind because they can't see directly behind them without turning their head. I'm sorry but this dog's reaction was way over the top, this was an extremely aggressive attack, not a startled little nip, this dog had no business being in public and I'm sure this was not the first time he bit. I would never bring a dog that I knew had an unstable temperament out where children would be likely to pet them, the parent did everything she could and was assured the dog was ok, this dog was not, simple as that.


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## DharmasMom

The fact is nobody knows what really happened. Like every story there is 3 sides- the mother's, the owner's and the truth, which is probably somewhere in the middle. 

Was the dog feeling overwhelmed and no one noticed the signs? Did the kid run at the dog from behind? Was the dog just crazy and snapped? None of us has those answers. What we do know is that a kid is permanently disfigured, a dog will die, and I am sure the owner of the dog will get sued to the ends of the earth and back and it is the fault of the 2 adults who were responsible for each of them. And now the town council wants to go crazy and ban all dogs from everywhere. 

That to me is completely nuts. If a child get seriously hurt riding a bike, do we ban all bikes? Thousands of people (including children) are killed in car crashes every year so should we ban all cars? If a kid gets hit by a car when he runs into a road chasing a ball, do we then ban cars from driving on that road forever? 

What happened to this kid is horrible and tragic and it could have been prevented. But horrible, tragic preventable accidents happen to people everyday in this country and we don't go crazy and decide to start banning things. For some reason people have decided to focus on dogs and decided that they are inherently "dangerous". So now we have BSL's that are murdering good dogs all over this country every day and now there is a town that wants to ban dogs in public. I'm sure more towns will follow. When will people start taking PERSONAL responsibility for their actions and those of their pets and children? Personal responsibility means that we don't need sweeping legislation to handle isolated cases. It means that EACH person takes responsibility for their own. It means that if you have a dog that has a history you don't take it out in public and if it doesn't have a history, don't set it up for failure by letting a half dozen kids get in it's face. And as a mother don't let your 2 year old near a large dog that you don't know. I don't care if there are 15 other kids playing with that dog. If there were 15 other kids playing in the middle of the highway would you let your toddler do it? Use some common sense. You DON'T know the dog and 2 year olds DON'T know how to approach dogs or read dogs. 

All of this could have been prevented if people would use a little bit of common sense but sadly we are in a critical short supply of that in this country but we have more than enough of a sense of entitlement and "It's not my fault" to make up for it.


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## AbbyK9

^ This.

None of us, including myself, know exactly how this bite happened because none of us were at this event when it occurred. I doubt even the dog owner or the mother really know what happened until the child was on the ground being bitten. If you asked them to recount what happened in the minutes before, they probably wouldn't know whether the dog was stressed, whether the dog was startled, whether the child stepped on a paw or pulled a tail.

But it's irrelevant. It sounds like everyone was being responsible and doing the right things up until the bite. The dog's owner was in a grassy area with her dog on a leash. Other children were petting the dog without any issues. The boy's mother asked if her child could pet and petted the dog first. Then, suddenly, the child winds up behind the dog and is bitten.

I don't think it's ever a good idea for a toddler to be allowed to pet a strange dog, regardless of whether the dog is big or small, friendly or not, leashed or not. Little kids shouldn't touch strange dogs. I think in hindsight, the mother is trying to make it out like she was already "uncomfortable" about this particular dog, that she "sensed" the dog was a danger ... which, I think, isn't in her favor because it's like saying, "Yeah, I thought the dog was dangerous, but I still let my toddler pet him." Makes no sense.

But I digress.

The whole point is, this is hurting everyone else who has dogs and is responsible with their dogs. MY dogs love events, love kids, love being petted, hugged, kissed. LOADS of dogs don't. And I don't think it's fair I should no longer be able to do things with my dogs that I enjoy doing because this accident happened.


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## Mrs.K

> The whole point is, this is hurting everyone else who has dogs and is responsible with their dogs. MY dogs love events, love kids, love being petted, hugged, kissed. LOADS of dogs don't. And I don't think it's fair I should no longer be able to do things with my dogs that I enjoy doing because this accident happened.


Mine do too.


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## Chicagocanine

Well I'd say the same thing about breed bans... Just because some (insert breed here) was involved in an attack, should all dogs of that breed have to suffer?

A city in Iowa banned pit bulls because a meter reader was bitten by one. That seems pretty weird to me for several reasons-- meter readers are probably at risk from dog bites due to their job, and I don't see how banning a breed is going to help...

Now they have also told a man he can't have his service dog because it's a pit bull mix:
Retired Chicago cop?s service dog not welcome in Iowa town - Chicago Sun-Times

Of course that part is against the ADA but the breed ban for pet dogs I'm sure is there to stay.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

As far as the incident with the boy getting attacked by the dog, I agree with selzer. This was not a "correction" or a "warning nip," it was a drawn out attack. The dog should be put down. I can't believe the amount of people blaming the "idiot mother" for not being able to read dog language. How many dog owners cannot read dog language? How many dog "TRAINERS" cannot read dog language?

If it was as reported where the mother asked and the boy pet the dog and was then attacked (even if it happened awhile after the mother originally asked) I put the blame on the dog owner... that kind of dog should never have been out in public.

NONE of my dogs would bite if a child "pet their back," pulled their fur, poked their eyes, or even fell on them. They might, if continually provoked, give a correction/bite. BUT if suddenly a child ran up and threw themselves at my dogs and I was not quick enough to prevent contact, I am confident that my dogs would not bite. If I was not confident, I would not bring them out in public. I certainly would never allow my dogs to be tormented to the point of them feeling like they need to handle a situation. If my dogs are uncomfortable in any situation, they immediately look to me. If I cannot remove what's bothering them, I remove myself and my dogs. (example: I was once in a situation where a little boy kept running up and screaming in my dogs' faces. I couldn't locate the parents or whoever was in charge of the boy, so we left).

But, everybody wants to bring their dogs everywhere without a care of whether or not the dog is comfortable in every situation. Rather than accepting they have a "dog in need of space" (a term I've seen thrown around lately), they try to FORCE their dog to accept every situation, to "socialize" them so they will accept it. Guess what? Not every dog's going to be okay with joe blow public pawing them, with or without permission.

The more idiot owners that try to force their dogs to be social butterflies when it simply isn't their personality, the more bans and restrictions are going to be placed, and the more justified the authorities are going to be in placing those bans. I'm not sure what to do about it... other than continue to try and educate so the good owners outnumber the idiot ones.


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## Steelhead

I dont think dogs should be allowed at public events unless the events are specifically for the dogs or have designated areas for dogs. I dont know how many times I go to parades or gatherings in the town square and you have people walking around with dogs "mingling" as if they dont have a dog. when you are there with a group of small kids the next thing you know the person with the dog is behind you and the kids are petting the dog. I walk to take my daughter to school and there is a mom with a german shepherd and another with a bernese mountain dog who walks as well. The kids are all playing in the school yard before school starts and the mom brings the dog right up to where the parents stand about 20 yards from the playground and the next thing you know the kid is bringing other kids over to pet her dog. I can tell the teachers get really annoyed and have told her to back away with the dog. Some people like to think their dog is a human and can interact as if it is a human. Dogs are not human and should not be treated like humans! There is another older couple with a mastiff in town and they sit at a bench by the ice cream shop and encourage the kids to interact with the dog and when i tell the kids no I am the bad guy. It is just really annoying being around these people, they ruin it for everyone.


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## Mrs.K

Honestly, that is a parenting thing. 

If I walk along with my dog and there is a bunch of kids running up to pet my dog, it's NOT the dog owners fault. 

My parents managed to teach all of us girls to stay away from strange dogs and we were like 6 years old and understood to stay away because not all dogs like kids. How comes, that nowadays, it's always the dog owners fault? 

So if happen to walk my dog behind you, while you walk down the road and your kids turn away from you to run up to my dog because they want to pet her than it's my fault? How about, you remain control over your kids? Put them on a leash if you can't keep them from running away or don't have a solid re-call yet! That might keep them from being run over by a car too because god forbid I'm on the other side of the road and they are like "DOGGIE" and start running without looking left or right... that might be my fault then too, eh? Because I'm the one with the dog... 



Steelhead said:


> I dont think dogs should be allowed at public events unless the events are specifically for the dogs or have designated areas for dogs. I dont know how many times I go to parades or gatherings in the town square and you have people walking around with dogs "mingling" as if they dont have a dog. when you are there with a group of small kids the next thing you know the person with the dog is behind you and the kids are petting the dog. I walk to take my daughter to school and there is a mom with a german shepherd and another with a bernese mountain dog who walks as well. The kids are all playing in the school yard before school starts and the mom brings the dog right up to where the parents stand about 20 yards from the playground and the next thing you know the kid is bringing other kids over to pet her dog. I can tell the teachers get really annoyed and have told her to back away with the dog. Some people like to think their dog is a human and can interact as if it is a human. Dogs are not human and should not be treated like humans! There is another older couple with a mastiff in town and they sit at a bench by the ice cream shop and encourage the kids to interact with the dog and when i tell the kids no I am the bad guy. It is just really annoying being around these people, they ruin it for everyone.


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## Steelhead

Parades and other events are for people, not dogs. It has nothing to do with control of kids. When you are at a event and someone walks up behind you with a dog, I shouldnt have to worry about the kids walking 10 feet and coming in contact with a dog. I am talking about kids that are 3, 4, 5 years old. You want to bring a dog to a public event, stay away from everyone. At a public event the kids run around and play, that is what the events are for. It is not somewhere people should bring their dog to "socialize" them. If people want to bring there dog to public places bring them to petsmart or the dog park, where they are expected.




Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, that is a parenting thing.
> 
> If I walk along with my dog and there is a bunch of kids running up to pet my dog, it's NOT the dog owners fault.
> 
> My parents managed to teach all of us girls to stay away from strange dogs and we were like 6 years old and understood to stay away because not all dogs like kids. How comes, that nowadays, it's always the dog owners fault?
> 
> So if happen to walk my dog behind you, while you walk down the road and your kids turn away from you to run up to my dog because they want to pet her than it's my fault? How about, you remain control over your kids? Put them on a leash if you can't keep them from running away or don't have a solid re-call yet! That might keep them from being run over by a car too because god forbid I'm on the other side of the road and they are like "DOGGIE" and start running without looking left or right... that might be my fault then too, eh? Because I'm the one with the dog...


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## Mrs.K

Steelhead said:


> Parades and other events are for people, not dogs. It has nothing to do with control of kids. When you are at a event and someone walks up behind you with a dog, I shouldnt have to worry about the kids walking 10 feet and coming in contact with a dog. I am talking about kids that are 3, 4, 5 years old. You want to bring a dog to a public event, stay away from everyone. At a public event the kids run around and play, that is what the events are for. It is not somewhere people should bring their dog to "socialize" them. If people want to bring there dog to public places bring them to petsmart or the dog park, where they are expected.


I could say the same thing about you and your kids. If you want to bring them to an event, remain control over your kids because I shouldn't have to worry about kids running loose everywhere. Not to mention that somebody could just snatch them up because you don't want to do your job and watch them. What about a candy booth, should they be banned to because they attrackt small kids? 

Sorry, but I will bring my dog to every festival and public event I can bring them to. I will not leave my house without at least one dog. Just because you don't want to worry about your kids... ged a babysitter or put them on a leash or actually do it the old fashioned way, have them in a stroller or on your hand. 

And some dogs, i.e. Service Dogs in Training need to be out there going through those events because they are expected to be rock solid in these kind of situation. 

Teach your kids to stay away. And a 3/4/5 year old kids should NEVER been left out of sight anyways. They shouldn't be off your hand anytime, anywhere. So your argument about small kids, running off to see the dog, is not the dog owners but the parents fault. Take responsibility for your Kids and don't pass it off to somebody else. It's not my responsibility that your kids stay with you. There is so much going on at a public event that a dog is the least thing you have to worry about. There are many things that can attrackt a young kid. It's your job to watch them. 

I remain control over my dog, you remain control over your Kids. Period!


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## Steelhead

You dont get it. The kids are not out of sight but people just walk right by and stop and talk to someone with their dog 5 feet from us. It is rediculous. I would support the ban. You have to remember, most public events are for people, not dogs. I cant complain if I go to a dog show or petsmart or a dog park. if you are one of these people that walk their dog right up to the school and let the dog interact with the kids or stand right outside the ice cream store with your dog, or bring your dog to a parade and walk right through groups of people you are contributing to the problem and cant complain when the ban is put in place. You have to remember alot of people are not dog people and would rather not have dogs around.




Mrs.K said:


> I could say the same thing about you and your kids. If you want to bring them to an event, remain control over your kids because I shouldn't have to worry about kids running loose everywhere. Not to mention that somebody could just snatch them up because you don't want to do your job and watch them. What about a candy booth, should they be banned to because they attrackt small kids?
> 
> Sorry, but I will bring my dog to every festival and public event I can bring them to. I will not leave my house without at least one dog. Just because you don't want to worry about your kids... ged a babysitter or put them on a leash or actually do it the old fashioned way, have them in a stroller or on your hand.
> 
> And some dogs, i.e. Service Dogs in Training need to be out there going through those events because they are expected to be rock solid in these kind of situation.
> 
> Teach your kids to stay away. And a 3/4/5 year old kids should NEVER been left out of sight anyways. They shouldn't be off your hand anytime, anywhere. So your argument about small kids, running off to see the dog, is not the dog owners but the parents fault. Take responsibility for your Kids and don't pass it off to somebody else. It's not my responsibility that your kids stay with you. There is so much going on at a public event that a dog is the least thing you have to worry about. There are many things that can attrackt a young kid. It's your job to watch them.
> 
> I remain control over my dog, you remain control over your Kids. Period!


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## Mrs.K

And that is a dog owners fault? 

I am contributing to a problem because I am walking my dog through a parade? Honestly, I have more control over my dog than you have, obviously, over your kids. 

People have taken their dogs to schools, bus stations since AGES. And now it's a problem? You can't even walk your dog and your kid to a school anymore because somebody, like you, could be pissed? 

Wow... just wow... so all dog owners should be allowed to do is to lock their dogs up in a backyard or go to a dog park and MAYBE to petsmart? But walking by a school, or walking the dog with your child to the school bus or the school...no you can't possibly do that. Or actually having your dog with you in the city doesn't work either because you could walk through a crowd and you could lose control over your kid? 

That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard. 
Again. If you can't have control over your kids, maybe you are the one that should be banned from events because you are the one contributing to the problem. If I have more control over my dog than you have over your child, THATS a problem. 

My dog won't attack your child but if you can't keep your child from pet-attacking my dog... maybe you are the one that ought to keep your child on a leash or stay away from a public event. My dog is under control. Obviously, your child isn't!

And I stop wherever the heck I want, with my dog, and talk to people I know as long as I want. Since when is that a problem? Just because I have a dog on the leash? 

Stuff like that makes my blood boil. 

Oh and remember...not everybody likes kids and wants them around. But obviously... society dictates that we "have to like it". 



Steelhead said:


> You dont get it. The kids are not out of sight but people just walk right by and stop and talk to someone with their dog 5 feet from us. It is rediculous. I would support the ban. You have to remember, most public events are for people, not dogs. I cant complain if I go to a dog show or petsmart or a dog park. if you are one of these people that walk their dog right up to the school and let the dog interact with the kids or stand right outside the ice cream store with your dog, or bring your dog to a parade and walk right through groups of people you are contributing to the problem and cant complain when the ban is put in place. You have to remember alot of people are not dog people and would rather not have dogs around.


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## AbbyK9

> The kids are not out of sight but people just walk right by and stop and talk to someone with their dog 5 feet from us.


Could you please explain why it is "ridiculous", in your opinion, for someone to stop five feet from you and your family to talk to someone else, just because they have a dog? What danger to you and your kids is a dog that is sitting next to its owner five feet away? Why does it bother you?

I also don't understand this -



> if you are one of these people that walk their dog right up to the school and let the dog interact with the kids or stand right outside the ice cream store with your dog,


I don't understand you. Where do you bring your dogs? What do you do with them?

We are talking about people walking their (leashed) dogs on public (city) property where they pay taxes, are we not? They have just as much right to walk their kids to the school with the dog, or stand outside the ice cream shop with the dog as other people do to do the same thing with, say, a baby carriage. A leashed dog outside a store or outside the school property isn't a danger. And if people don't want to interact with the dog, they don't have to - nobody is forcing them. 

Now, crowded places are another story - if you're snaking your way through the spectators at a parade with your dog, that's kinda rude. But if you're walking around the block to find an area where you can be at the curb and not disturb anyone else, or you're passing through a parking lot behind people lined up to see the parade, I don't see the issue.

It sounds to me that your issue is more that you either believe dogs should never be in public places except Petsmart and the dog park, or that you believe it's the dog owners' responsibility to keep your children safe (rather than teaching your children not to approach strange dogs).

I get the latter from your example of the mom who brings her dog to walk her daughter to school. You mentioned she stands "20 yards from the playground with the other parents." It sounds like she is being respectful and keeping a distance from the children. But, obviously, other kids are asking the child of the dog owner if they can come meet his/her dog. I don't think the dog owner is to blame here. 

Is she on the playground? Is she asking kids to come over and meet the dog?


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## Steelhead

It most defintely is the dog owners fault. I am on the board of trustees for my town. A proposal was just put in place to ban dogs from school property. The reason, because people with dogs walk right up to the edge of the playground and stand there. Their kids invite other kids to pet the dog, most parents are not there because they just dropped their kids off so the kids are the schools responsibility. The teachers ask the parents to back up or keep their dogs away from the playground and they dont listen, they stop for a day or two and come back. Dogs were recently banned from our town's lake michigan beach and the park during the fourth of july celebration so i am not in the minority, you are.

People with dogs have to have common courtesy and keep their dogs separate or they wont have a choice pretty soon. Do we really need to implement a law that says dogs have to be kept 20 feet from the entrance to a store? It wont be long before that is being discussed.


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## Mrs.K

And I am serious about leashing Kids. Whoever invented that little gadget was a genious. This is a fantastic read about the harness for small kids and it might actually solve all your problems. 

Child Abuse. Harness, leash ,child, dog.


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## Mrs.K

Steelhead said:


> It most defintely is the dog owners fault. I am on the board of trustees for my town. A proposal was just put in place to ban dogs from school property. The reason, because people with dogs walk right up to the edge of the playground and stand there. Their kids invite other kids to pet the dog, most parents are not there because they just dropped their kids off so the kids are the schools responsibility. The teachers ask the parents to back up or keep their dogs away from the playground and they dont listen, they stop for a day or two and come back. Dogs were recently banned from our town's lake michigan beach and the park during the fourth of july celebration so i am not in the minority, you are.
> 
> People with dogs have to have common courtesy and keep their dogs separate or they wont have a choice pretty soon. Do we really need to implement a law that says dogs have to be kept 20 feet from the entrance to a store? It wont be long before that is being discussed.



Sounds like discrimination to me. What about common courtesy from parents and their kids? Those lovely kids that run around screaming and yelling, dropping to the floor throwing a fit, knocking things over... Those little lovebugs never can do anything wrong, because they are just kids. 

But I can't walk up with a well behaved dog because your kid could come up to my dog wanting to pet it because you don't want to take responsibility over your supervision and parenting skills? 

I know why I prefer the company of my dogs over the company of people...


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## Steelhead

I am not saying dont walk your dog and kid to school, but remember you have a dog and keep the dog away from other people. Stop 50 yards away, let the kid walk to school and than go home. If you go for ice cream find a spot people dont HAVE to walk by and sit there with your dog. If people want to come over they will. At the fourth of july celebration stay on the outskirts, dont walk right through where people are sitting on blankets with their kids playing around them. Simple things will prevent the bans. I am a dog owner and I always assumed people dont want the dog around, and kept him away. If people came over I would interact.


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## Mrs.K

Steelhead said:


> I am not saying dont walk your dog and kid to school, but remember you have a dog and keep the dog away from other people. Stop 50 yards away, let the kid walk to school and than go home. If you go for ice cream find a spot people dont HAVE to walk by and sit there with your dog. If people want to come over they will. At the fourth of july celebration stay on the outskirts, dont walk right through where people are sitting on blankets with their kids playing around them. Simple things will prevent the bans. I am a dog owner and I always assumed people dont want the dog around, and kept him away. If people came over I would interact.


Sorry but some of your demands are just plain ridiculous. Just because others don't have control over their kids doesn't mean I have to watch out for them and walk away anytime I see a family standing on the sidewalk. I do not and will not accept that I have to change the side of the road or can't even stand in line for some ice cream while I have my dog with me, that certainly is not a danger to your child. 

Nor will I turn myself into a social outcast just because you feel like dog owners shouldn't have the right to be where they want even though they are tax paying citizens.


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## Steelhead

You know your dog is not a danger but others dont. It makes people uncomfortable. Why should other people have to be uncomfortable so you can have your dog around? I am just saying people that have the dog right in the mix are leading to the bans. People with small kids and the elderly are the most vocal and the groups we get the most complaints from on dogs. 

It is just like smoking, it bothers some people and CAN BE a hazzard so if you choose to do it you have to take some common coutesy steps (and cant interact like a person that doesnt smoke) or the laws will be put in place.




Mrs.K said:


> Sorry but some of your demands are just plain ridiculous. Just because others don't have control over their kids doesn't mean I have to watch out for them and walk away anytime I see a family standing on the sidewalk. I do not and will not accept that I have to change the side of the road or can't even stand in line for some ice cream while I have my dog with me, that certainly is not a danger to your child.
> 
> Nor will I turn myself into a social outcast just because you feel like dog owners shouldn't have the right to be where they want even though they are tax paying citizens.


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## Mrs.K

No, it's highly discriminating. I feel uncomfortable around unruly and unbehaved kids. There are more unbehaved kids than unbehaved dogs out there. Do I demand parents to go away just because I feel uncomfortable around them? 

People in this country are so afraid about communism and dictatorship yet they are their worst own enemy, wanting to cut everybody elses but their own freedom.


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## Wolfiesmom

In my town, dogs are not allowed on school grounds during school hours. They can be at any public event, but have to be leashed on a leash that is no longer than 6 feet. Dogs must also be leashed at all times unless they are on private property. I think the irresponsible parenting of both human and fur kids have lead to these laws.


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## Wolfiesmom

Mrs.K said:


> No, it's highly discriminating. I feel uncomfortable around unruly and unbehaved kids. There are more unbehaved kids than unbehaved dogs out there. Do I demand parents to go away just because I feel uncomfortable around them?
> 
> People in this country are so afraid about communism and dictatorship yet they are their worst own enemy, wanting to cut everybody elses but their own freedom.


Too right!


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## Steelhead

Again, you dont seem to get it, dogs do not have the same rights as people and most people do not want other people's dogs around, especially small kids and the elderly. If you bring your dog around and dont take extra courtesy to keep your dog away from other people you are contributing to the problem and the bans. People complain about laws and restrictions but they are needed because there are small groups of people that dont practice common sense/common courtesy. 



Mrs.K said:


> No, it's highly discriminating. I feel uncomfortable around unruly and unbehaved kids. There are more unbehaved kids than unbehaved dogs out there. Do I demand parents to go away just because I feel uncomfortable around them?
> 
> People in this country are so afraid about communism and dictatorship yet they are their worst own enemy, wanting to cut everybody elses but their own freedom.


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## Mrs.K

Steelhead said:


> Again, you dont seem to get it, dogs do not have the same rights as people and most people do not want other people's dogs around, especially small kids and the elderly. If you bring your dog around and dont take extra courtesy to keep your dog away from other people you are contributing to the problem and the bans. People complain about laws and restrictions but they are needed because there are small groups of people that dont practice common sense/common courtesy.



Wait a second. So if I stand there, minding my own business, with a well behaved dog that isn't sniffing, jumping or otherwise annoying anyone... it's my fault because your kids run up to me? So I am the one annoying everybody because YOUR kids ran up to my dog that wasn't even interested in anyone and sitting nicely right next to me? 

So I am the one contributing to the problem? Even though I am the one that hasn't done anything wrong and I am the cause for ban laws even though YOU let your kids run up to my dog in the first place? 
I think you are the one who isn't getting it. YOU are the one contributing to the problem by letting your kids running around. My dog is leashed and sitting nicely right there where I put him.
Wow.... and I though I heard it all... you've got a weird perception of reality...take responsibility for your own actions! PERIOD!


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## ShenzisMom

Sounds like someone lives in a bubble...


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## Steelhead

Just remember if you bring your dog to a school and walk right up to the other parents and get near the kids, I dont care if the kids even interact with the dog, the city is getting complaints (even if the parents seem ok with it). Same with parades, 4th of july celebrations etc, if you have a dog and just wander through the crowds, even if no kid touches the dog, the city is getting complaints. Especially if the dog is a pit bull, rottweiler, german shepherd etc. That is just the way it is and that is what leads to the bans.


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## AbbyK9

> If you bring your dog around and dont take extra courtesy to keep your dog away from other people you are contributing to the problem and the bans. People complain about laws and restrictions but they are needed because there are small groups of people that dont practice common sense/common courtesy.


For what it's worth ....

I agree that it is the dog owner's responsibility to ensure that their dogs do not bother other people in public, especially people that are uncomfortable around dogs or do not want to interact with them. This is why I keep my dog leashed in public and I try to find spots to stand or sit where my dog isn't in the way or blocking people from walking around her.

On the other hand, I don't think dog owners should be required to have a 50ft space around them at all times. There's nothing wrong with a dog and owner sitting on the curb to watch a parade. That's very different from someone snaking their way through a crowd that is thick with people. There's nothing wrong with me sitting in front of an ice cream shop having some ice cream with my dog - again, if I'm not blocking the door or blocking other people from sitting somewhere and enjoying their ice cream, there is no harm done. 

That all said, none of this really has anything to do with why the ban was proposed in Watertown. The proposed ban in Watertown is not a response to the city "getting complaints". The proposed ban in Watertown is a response to ONE dog bite incident. And that incident wasn't about people being irresponsible with their dogs or forcing them on other people - in that incident, the person with the dog had the dog leashed. They were standing on the grass away from the event area and other kids were petting the dog. The mom of the child that was bitten came up and asked if her child could pet, she even petted the dog before the child did.

The dog owner did everything right as far as you're talking about with giving people space, having their dog leashed, being away from the crowds. There've not been any other complaints mentioned when the city proposed the ban, just this one incident.

For what it's worth, the people I've met with "rude" dogs (the ones that let their dogs run right up to people or other dogs or make no effort to ensure their dogs weren't bothering people) have generally been people with little dogs, not big ones.


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## Mrs.K

AbbyK9 said:


> For what it's worth ....
> 
> I agree that it is the dog owner's responsibility to ensure that their dogs do not bother other people in public, especially people that are uncomfortable around dogs or do not want to interact with them. This is why I keep my dog leashed in public and I try to find spots to stand or sit where my dog isn't in the way or blocking people from walking around her.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't think dog owners should be required to have a 50ft space around them at all times. There's nothing wrong with a dog and owner sitting on the curb to watch a parade. That's very different from someone snaking their way through a crowd that is thick with people. There's nothing wrong with me sitting in front of an ice cream shop having some ice cream with my dog - again, if I'm not blocking the door or blocking other people from sitting somewhere and enjoying their ice cream, there is no harm done.
> 
> That all said, none of this really has anything to do with why the ban was proposed in Watertown. The proposed ban in Watertown is not a response to the city "getting complaints". The proposed ban in Watertown is a response to ONE dog bite incident. And that incident wasn't about people being irresponsible with their dogs or forcing them on other people - in that incident, the person with the dog had the dog leashed. They were standing on the grass away from the event area and other kids were petting the dog. The mom of the child that was bitten came up and asked if her child could pet, she even petted the dog before the child did.
> 
> The dog owner did everything right as far as you're talking about with giving people space, having their dog leashed, being away from the crowds. There've not been any other complaints mentioned when the city proposed the ban, just this one incident.
> 
> For what it's worth, the people I've met with "rude" dogs (the ones that let their dogs run right up to people or other dogs or make no effort to ensure their dogs weren't bothering people) have generally been people with little dogs, not big ones.


Exactly that.


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## Steelhead

My point is, just like I think it is a bad idea to bring toddlers to a dog park, the same applies in bringing dogs to parades, schools, ice cream shops, any place with alot of kids. If you do it you need to take extra precautions and keep kids/people away from your dog. It is the dog owners responsibility. Who has been at a parade where kids are not running around all over? The parades are for kids not dogs.

Everyone thinks their dog would never harm a kid, but it happens all to often and it results in bans. Same with dogs knocking into elderly people at parades.

Before my dog died and before dogs were banned I would take him to the beach. I would go during the week when no one else was there and if kids came over I would move. The reason dogs were banned at the beach is people brought them during saturday afternoons on hot days, when the beach was packed and people complained. Now I, who didnt bother anyone, cannot bring my dog to the beach at all. Same thing at schools, these "so called dog people" who bring their dog right up to the other parents and stand 10-20 feet from the kids and see the kids walk toward their dogs and dont leave, and are oblivious to the dirty looks of the teachers/other parents (who dont know if the dog is friendly or not) are the ones who are going to get dogs banned from the school grounds and me, who brings the dog across the soccer field, but keeps well away from the kids/other parents, kisses my kid and send them off wont be able to bring the dog onto the soccer field anymore. For the ice cream shop we had the owner inquire if there was any ordinance he could site to prevent people from bringing their dogs on his property, he didnt want to look like a bad guy, but said people with dogs lingering around hurt his business and make customers uncomfortable.

I participate in the city counsel meetings and I am sharing what is discussed.


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## Mrs.K

> My point is, just like I think it is a bad idea to bring toddlers to a dog park, the same applies in bringing dogs to parades, schools, ice cream shops, any place with alot of kids. If you do it you need to take extra precautions and keep kids/people away from your dog. It is the dog owners responsibility. Who has been at a parade where kids are not running around all over? The parades are for kids not dogs.


You can't even compare the two. 

A toddler in a park full of dogs is not the same as one single, well behaved dog at a ice cream shop.

Especially on post there were a dozen Kids in the dog park with like 20 dogs. One jumped into a stroller while the toddler was in there. 

That is nowhere in comparison to maybe one or two dogs at a shop.


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## AbbyK9

> Who has been at a parade where kids are not running around all over?


No offense, but children should not be "running all over" during a parade. It is not a playground. They should sit and watch the parade like the adults do. Otherwise, one of these days, some of them will get run over by a float or by a spooked horse that's in the parade. I have never, ever let my dogs "run around all over" at any event. (If I had children, I would not allow them to run all over, either!)

And I have to say that I agree with Mrs.K that people shouldn't allow their children to "run around all over", either. It's dangerous for children to do this, especially when there's vehicles in the parade, and especially in a crowded area where their parents can easily loose sight of them. Dogs aside, it is not my duty to parent other peoples' children. Parade organizers shouldn't have to worry about floats or vehicles in parades running over kids because their parents can't keep them on the sidelines. They should also not have to worry about getting sued if a child gets abducted because the parents let them "run all over."

On a complete side note, I don't take my dogs to the dog park. Dogs don't need to socialize with strange dogs of unknown temperament. Incidentally, the dog park is also where I've seen the most idiocy when it comes to people and their animals. (Unlike, for example, outside of the ice cream shop where I've always seen well-behaved dogs sitting with their owners waiting for a lick of ice cream.)


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## Mrs.K

Like with the Christmas Parade and the kids that went for all the candy and some of them got really close to the vehicles. I know that with our Fasching parades they threw the candy into the crowd but NEVER have I seen kids to actually go into the road because they threw it on the road instead of into the crowd. Might have been because it was that loop but I thought that was pretty dangerous. 
More dangerous than the three dogs we've had with us.


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## selzer

We have a street fair here in town each year. They block off part of the street, and kids, kids with bikes, kids in strollers, old people, a band, and a number of dogs all mill around in the street. There are lights and rides and food and dancing. People are eating, drinking, kids are running, riding bikes. dropping those little packets of gun power I think that snap really loud. And the dogs mill around too, most of them leashed to an owner. 

It is amazing that no one ever seems to get hurt. The brats on bikes do not level the toddlers barely able to walk, and the people with dogs do not let them eat the babies, children, old people or drunk people. 

I used to take Rushie. 

I took Babs and Jenna together to a parade, and took Rushie to many. 

I think that I like to take the dogs (normally one at a time) simply to get them used to being in a crowd. Our parades do not hold a candle to the crowded Christmas Classic dog show. The dog has to be able to do what I want and not freak out because there is literally a thousand people milling around. 

It is certainly my responsibility to ensure that my dog does not run afoul of any people.


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## Mrs.K

> It is certainly my responsibility to ensure that my dog does not run afoul of any people.


Yes, and it's their parents responsibility too keep their kids from running afoul as well. 

Like I stated in another post. I keep control of my dog, the parents keep their kids under control. Everybody takes responsibility for what they do and that alone would make life for everybody, involved, a lot easier.


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## damaya

Steelhead said:


> That is just the way it is _*where I live*_ and that is what leads to the bans.


FTFY
You should not generalize that is the way it is everywhere.



> I participate in the city counsel meetings and I am sharing what is discussed.


I am the Mayor of the town I live in and have served since 2001, and can say I have never had the issues you speak of, and we are a town that has parades, street festivals, park functions, and just about anything that creates an opportunity for people to gather. I really think you are out in left field here, and should try serving as the voice of reason if you have the chance to do so at the next council meeting.

The only complaint I have had regarding a dog was from a city worker that was trying to read a water meter in the yard of an aggresive dog. Recently had a utility worker bitten by our Police K9. He apologized to US for what he described as "startling the dog" when he attempted to pet it. Neither it's handler or the dog expected someone to approach in the way he did. 

Very good post AbbyK9.


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## damaya

I posted this in another thread some time back. This is straight out of our city ordinances regarding "Vicious dogs". Anyone else have one from their city to compare it with?

(17)"Vicious animal." Any animal or animals that
constitute a physical threat to human beings or other animals.

(4)Every vicious animal, as determined by the licensing
authority, shall be confined by the owner within a building or secure enclosure
and shall be securely muzzled or caged whenever off the premises of its owner.
(1989 Code, ? 3-105)

VICIOUS DOGS
SECTION
10-201. Vicious dogs.
10-202. Noisy dogs prohibited.
10-203. Confinement of dogs suspected of being rabid.
10-204. Destruction of vicious or infected dogs running at
large.
10-201. Vicious dogs. (1) Definitions. (a)
"Owner" means any person, firm, corporation, organization or
department possessing or harboring or having the care or custody of a dog.
(b)"Vicious dog" means:
(i)Any dog with a known propensity, tendency or
disposition to attack unprovoked, to cause injury to, or otherwise threaten the
safety of human beings or domestic animals; or
(ii)Any dog which because of its size, physical nature, or
vicious propensity is capable of inflicting serious physical harm or death to
humans and which would constitute a danger to human life or property if it were
not kept in the manner required by this chapter; or
(iii)Any dog which, without provocation, attacks or bites,
or has attacked or bitten, a human being or domestic animal; or
(iv)Any dog owned or harbored primarily or in part for the
purpose of dog fighting, or any dog trained for dog fighting; or
(v)Any dog that frequently or habitually snarls or growls
at or snaps or jumps upon or threatens persons lawfully upon the public
sidewalks, streets, alleys, or public places of the town.
(c)A vicious dog is "unconfined" if the dog is
not securely confined indoors or confined in a securely enclosed and locked pen
or structure upon the premises of the owner of the dog. The pen or structure
must have secure sides and a secure top attached to the sides. If the pen or
structure has no bottom secured to the sides, the sides must be embedded into
the ground no less than one foot. All such pens or structure must be adequately
lighted and kept in a clean and sanitary condition.
(2)Confinement. The owner of a vicious dog shall not
suffer or permit the dog to go unconfined.
(3)Leash and muzzle. The owner of a vicious dog shall not
suffer or permit the dog to go beyond the premises of the owner unless the dog
is securely muzzled and restrained by a chain or leash no longer than six (6)
feet in length, and under the physical restraint of a person. The muzzle shall
be made in a manner that will not cause injury to the dog or interfere with its
vision or respiration, but shall prevent it from biting any human or animal.
(4)Signs. The owner of a vicious dog shall display in a
prominent place on his or her premises a clearly visible warning sign indicating
that there is a vicious dog on the premises. A similar sign is required to be
posted on the pen or kennel of the animal.
(5)Dog fighting. No person, firm, corporation,
organization or department shall possess or harbor or maintain care or custody
of any dog for the purpose of dog fighting, or train, torment, badger, bait or
use any dog for the purpose of causing or encouraging the dog to attack human
beings or domestic animals. (1989 Code, ? 3-201)


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## Steelhead

When I say kids running all over I mean within 10 feet of their parents. 

When you own a german shepherd you have to remember they are veiwed by many as war dogs, patrol dogs, police dogs etc, if you want a dog you can bring anyware around people and not get a negative reaction get a poodle or golden retriever.


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## AbbyK9

> When you own a german shepherd you have to remember they are veiwed by many as war dogs, patrol dogs, police dogs etc, if you want a dog you can bring anyware around people and not get a negative reaction get a poodle or golden retriever.


I am having a difficult time following your logic.

Your argument is, bringing a German Shepherd into public is wrong and shouldn't be allowed because German Shepherds are "scary" and that they get negative reactions because they're often used as working dogs. But bringing a Poodle or a Golden Retriever, which are both the same general size as a German Shepherd, is okay because they're "not scary" and they're not used as working dogs. 

Is that your argument? Because that's a load of tosh, no offense. 

Never mind the fact that Labradors are also commonly used as police and military working dogs ... I've found that most people who are afraid of dogs are afraid of ALL big dogs, regardless of their breed or size. And I've also found that people who are specifically scared of "those police dogs" are usually among a statistic of people that have probably met a police dog on duty ... like having their car searched or having been taken down by one after running from the law.

I had a German Shepherd. I now have a Belgian Malinois. I can't count the number of positive interactions I've had with people who wanted to pet them specifically because they were Shepherds and Malinois and who would tell me about the Shepherd they used to own, or the K-9 their uncle/dad/grandfather/etc. used to handle in the military or the police. Far from getting "negative reactions", I've gotten extremely positive reactions BECAUSE of the breed, not despite of the breed.

And, honestly, I think the people who have an issue with dogs in public have an issue with them no matter what breed they are or what size they are.


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## Mrs.K

Steelhead said:


> When I say kids running all over I mean within 10 feet of their parents.
> 
> When you own a german shepherd you have to remember they are veiwed by many as war dogs, patrol dogs, police dogs etc, if you want a dog you can bring anyware around people and not get a negative reaction get a poodle or golden retriever.



... to be honest, I have NEVER had a bad reaction with any of my dogs, in this town. In fact, a lot of people come over, even when you try to stay away. ESPECIALLY the old people, saying how beautiful and gorgeous they are, then they politely ask to pet them and that puts a BIG smile on their face and it sometimes seems that it made their day to meet a German Shepherd. 
And then they start talking that they used to have a German Shepherd themselves and that they are simply incredible and beautiful dogs. 

And by the way. If you are so against shepherds, why are you on this forum? 

Furthermore, if I go to a public event, Indra, most of the time wears her SAR in Training vest since we also do fundraising. Also, SAR dogs are pretty much excluded from the ban. We get a letter from our Team Coordinator that we are Members of the K9 Team under the NY Federation. 
With that our dogs even get into Walmart or Home Depot because they are Dogs of Service and the Management usually allows us to go in to get them used to different flooring and situations. 

SAR dogs, are generally viewed as heroes, throughout the public and you get a lot of feedback from people. They all come an want to pet. There is just one difference. If she's wearing the vest, people ask before they pet because they see the in training patch. If she doesn't wear the vest, they generally assume that it is okay to pet her and even sneak up from behind. 

But even without the vest, they come and want to talk about the dog, no matter how far you are trying to stay away. 

So I don't know where you live but you obviously can't compare the two cities and I am pretty sure that I am not the only one in this town whose made that experience.


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## AbbyK9

> With that our dogs even get into Walmart or Home Depot because they are Dogs of Service.


On a side note, this isn't true. The only dogs that have full access to businesses and public transportation are Service Dogs. Those are defined as dogs that do specific tasks for a disabled person.

New York State Law is odd in how it defines "Dogs of Service" as it places Service Dogs, Therapy Dogs, Police K-9's, SAR dogs, etc. into one category for the purpose of licensing as they are all exempt from license fees. The way the dog ban is written, it carries over those definitions as dogs that will be excluded. You'd still be able to bring a dog from those categories to an outdoor event. However, you can't bring them into a store unless they're actively working (like, for example, a Therapy Dog visiting a hospital or a tracking dog looking for a suspect).

I know the names are confusing, but "Dogs of Service" are NOT "Service Dogs". Only dogs that help the disabled are Service Dogs and can go public places with their disabled handler all the time, including stores.


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## Mrs.K

AbbyK9 said:


> On a side note, this isn't true. The only dogs that have full access to businesses and public transportation are Service Dogs. Those are defined as dogs that do specific tasks for a disabled person.
> 
> New York State Law is odd in how it defines "Dogs of Service" as it places Service Dogs, Therapy Dogs, Police K-9's, SAR dogs, etc. into one category for the purpose of licensing as they are all exempt from license fees. The way the dog ban is written, it carries over those definitions as dogs that will be excluded. You'd still be able to bring a dog from those categories to an outdoor event. However, you can't bring them into a store unless they're actively working (like, for example, a Therapy Dog visiting a hospital or a tracking dog looking for a suspect).
> 
> I know the names are confusing, but "Dogs of Service" are NOT "Service Dogs". Only dogs that help the disabled are Service Dogs and can go public places with their disabled handler all the time, including stores.


I know that Chris. I know that some on the team, got a letter, went to the management and got permission to take the dog in. That is why I added that it's only after we talk to the Management. No one would just walk in. We ask politely and most of the time we get permission to go in. 
I've been in plenty of stores, even without the letter, simply because I've asked politely.


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## AbbyK9

Just don't want anyone to get the idea that if their dog is considered a "Dog of Service" in New York, they can just take them into any store.


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## Mrs.K

AbbyK9 said:


> Just don't want anyone to get the idea that if their dog is considered a "Dog of Service" in New York, they can just take them into any store.




Sorry for the confusion. We always ask for permission and it helps to have a letter from the team in your pocket. That is how we get access. None of us wouldn't just walk in. That is rude and can burn bridges and get you into trouble and possibly into the newspapers with bad press.

However, the point was that so far there never was a bad reaction of Shepherds being in the public or at a public event, not as long as I live here. Especially with a lot of military families, it's quite the opposite. Do you?


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## Steelhead

Is it really mind blowing that german shepherds vs a lab or poodle ellicit a different reaction from the public? Now I know why people dont go on forums. The people that argue have no touch with reality........People like you are the reason for bans on dogs and BSL.



AbbyK9 said:


> I am having a difficult time following your logic.
> 
> Your argument is, bringing a German Shepherd into public is wrong and shouldn't be allowed because German Shepherds are "scary" and that they get negative reactions because they're often used as working dogs. But bringing a Poodle or a Golden Retriever, which are both the same general size as a German Shepherd, is okay because they're "not scary" and they're not used as working dogs.
> 
> Is that your argument? Because that's a load of tosh, no offense.
> 
> Never mind the fact that Labradors are also commonly used as police and military working dogs ... I've found that most people who are afraid of dogs are afraid of ALL big dogs, regardless of their breed or size. And I've also found that people who are specifically scared of "those police dogs" are usually among a statistic of people that have probably met a police dog on duty ... like having their car searched or having been taken down by one after running from the law.
> 
> I had a German Shepherd. I now have a Belgian Malinois. I can't count the number of positive interactions I've had with people who wanted to pet them specifically because they were Shepherds and Malinois and who would tell me about the Shepherd they used to own, or the K-9 their uncle/dad/grandfather/etc. used to handle in the military or the police. Far from getting "negative reactions", I've gotten extremely positive reactions BECAUSE of the breed, not despite of the breed.
> 
> And, honestly, I think the people who have an issue with dogs in public have an issue with them no matter what breed they are or what size they are.


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## Mrs.K

Steelhead said:


> Is it really mind blowing that german shepherds vs a lab or poodle ellicit a different reaction from the public? Now I know why people dont go on forums. The people that argue have no touch with reality........People like you are the reason for bans on dogs and BSL.


Oh god... seriously...? Just like every person that is buying from a breeder is responsible for all the dogs in the shelters? 

You don't know her, nor do you know her dog. So far there has not been a single bad reaction. We've been together at the Christmas Parade. 

In fact, at Halloween, the Bouncer of the Bar asked me to bring Indra so we could play a prank on everybody in the Bar. He wanted to see people run from a "supposedly" police dog. Because he thought exactly like you, that everybody would think she's a police dog and that everybody thought she's a drug dog and you'd see some people run. I took her into the Bar, through the crowd to where Chris and her husband were sitting. Then we went outside and sat there. 
The whole thing had the opposite effect. Not a single scared person. Lots of people came up to pet her. We even got interviewed and pictures were taken of us. 

I don't remember how many people walked up to ask questions and to pet her. And everybody was in a costume and there were some weird and scary looking costumes out there. Yelling, drunk people, lots and lots of traffic. She behaved perfectly, people were happy to pet her... I really don't understand where all that negativity is coming from.


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## Steelhead

Mrs.K said:


> Oh god... seriously...? Just like every person that is buying from a breeder is responsible for all the dogs in the shelters?


who is more likely to get a speeding ticket a person in a corvette or a mini van? You buy a german shepherd or rottweiler you have to realize you cant just walk into a playground without people getting wide eyed, it is reality.


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## Mrs.K

Steelhead said:


> who is more likely to get a speeding ticket a person in a corvette or a mini van? You buy a german shepherd or rottweiler you have to realize you cant just walk into a playground without people getting wide eyed, it is reality.


Maybe you should move. Where I'm from the German Shepherd is a national treasure...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Mrs.K said:


> Maybe you should move. Where I'm from the German Shepherd is a national treasure...


So that would mean that YOU would be the person who should move, wouldn't it? 

Here, it's a Bald Eagle and I would not bring one of them into a crowd, for sure.


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## Mrs.K

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> So that would mean that YOU would be the person who should move, wouldn't it?
> 
> Here, it's a Bald Eagle and I would not bring one of them into a crowd, for sure.



Nah, in this town, GSD's are very welcome. I can't walk down the city square without being stopped and complimented on my dog. There are a lot of military folks around here and they tend to love Shepherds. I made that experience on every single post I went, so far. People even stop in their car to tell you how beautiful they are. Everybody wants to talk to you and wants to pet them. Especially the old vets. GSD's out here are more treatet like a celebrity than the other way around.


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## AbbyK9

> People like you are the reason for bans on dogs and BSL.


"People like me"? I'm sorry ... I was not aware that we had met. Certainly, you'd need to meet a person and their dog(s) in order to make a statement about who is and isn't a reason for dog bans and breed-specific legislation. Otherwise, it just makes you look like you don't have an actual argument to make.

Let me tell you about "people like me". My dogs - this one and the one prior to that - are both certified Therapy Dogs. They tested and are registered with TDI. They go to old folks' homes and schools to visit with people. They visit with soldiers on base, in the WTU and with various units.

"People like me" make an active effort to educate the public about dogs by teaching the public. How many schools have you been to in order to teach bite prevention and dog safety? How many Lions' Clubs, Kiwanis Clubs', and other civic organizations have you been to to teach about dogs? What kind of things do "people like you" do to be good dog owners and good ambassadors for the breeds you own? 

I can "argue" (make a point) based in reality and based on my experiences with my dogs. And the reality is, the majority of people I have encountered didn't just like my dogs, they actively seek us out to ask questions, tell us about dogs they've had, tell us about their father/grandfather/etc. who was a working dog handler. Because of the breed my dogs are, not in spite of it. I have been at many events where people came up to "the beautiful Shepherd" instead of the other dogs at the event because they wanted to meet Shepherds. Especially elderly people who've had these dogs in their youth, before there was a "stigma" attached to them as "bad dogs".



> who is more likely to get a speeding ticket a person in a corvette or a mini van?


The person who is SPEEDING. It matters very little to law enforcement if you drive a Fiesta or a Grand Caravan or a Mustang ... if you're speeding, you're still going to get a ticket. Some people are more likely to speed ... often related to what car they drive, but not always.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

If you would like to take this back and forth to PMs, or even let it go before it goes more into the personal realm, that would be a really good idea.


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## AbbyK9

> If you would like to take this back and forth to PMs, or even let it go before it goes more into the personal realm, that would be a really good idea.


I'm perfectly happy to take my leave from this discussion. I probably would not have posted anything else had it not been for the "people like you" personal attack from the other poster.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Great! Thank you.


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## Mrs.K

For what it's worth... AbbyK9 and I spend quite some time together and we went to some of the same public events. We made our experiences in the same city. We both have encountered the same things, such as people coming up wanting to talk to you because you have a Shepherd. Especially old people and young kids with their parents. 
I know her, I know her dog and I can assure you that her dog is one of the best and most well trained/behaved dogs I have ever met. 

This town is extremely Shepherd friendly. I do not know if this is the case everywhere or if this is mainly because there are a lot of military folks since I did make those experiences in Germany on American Bases, no matter where I went. From Heidelberg, Mannheim, Stuttgart, Rammstein to Grafenwoehr. You had the same effect everywhere. 

So no, I never had a bad experience about walking any of my Shepherds.

Before you judge and attack her personally, go to her blog, read her articles http://dfdk9.wordpress.com/articles/ and get your own picture (especially this one http://dfdk9.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/going-in-public/)whether or not she is the reason dog bans are installed.


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## Dainerra

Mrs.K said:


> Like with the Christmas Parade and the kids that went for all the candy and some of them got really close to the vehicles. I know that with our Fasching parades they threw the candy into the crowd but NEVER have I seen kids to actually go into the road because they threw it on the road instead of into the crowd. Might have been because it was that loop but I thought that was pretty dangerous.
> More dangerous than the three dogs we've had with us.


our town just banned throwing candy during the parade. At Homecoming, a kid ran out in the street and got clipped by a float. Actually, the kid ran INTO the side of the float and fell down. 

I agree, having my dog with me may get kids excited. Whether or not the parents can control their kids isn't my problem. I wonder if I can taser all the little buggers?

Now, people like I sometimes see at events SHOULD be banned. There was a woman at homecoming with her dog on a flexi - you all know where this story is going, right?? Dog was 20' away, behind her, climbing into people's laps and stealing food. She didn't like it and got all huffy when someone kicked her dog. Me, I was surprised it didn't happen sooner.

While waiting for the parade to start, a bunch of kids were playing soccer on the courthouse lawn. The ball rolled into the street and under a car stopped at the light. A little girl ran out and started to crawl UNDER a running car. Thankfully a stranger ran out and grabbed her. Don't know if they found her parents or not. She just took off into the crowd. 

Another group of boys was shoving people into traffic to get to the candy that was thrown. 

Teenagers on the floats were throwing candy at people they knew in the crowd, trying to hit them.

I think we should just ban stupidity and leave the dogs alone.


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## sparra

"I agree, having my dog with me may get kids excited. Whether or not the parents can control their kids isn't my problem. I wonder if I can taser all the little buggers?" quote Dainerra

I dunno but reading this thread it seems that again the fault is being laid at the feet of the general public.

Fact remains if your bombproof dog does someday bite some "little buggers" it will be your fault and your problem. You can stand and argue til you are blue in the face to a judge that parents are crap, kids are horrible and unpredictable, people are stupid cause they don't know how to behave around your dog but at the end of the day your dog will still pay the ultimate price.

There are "bad" parents, although it all very easy to judge if you have never raised kids yourself.....they do tend to be unpredictable and naughty at times no matter how good a parent you are.....there are silly teenagers, drunks, hoons, the mentally challenged and the list goes on out in public.....it is called "life". If you want to take your dog out into all that then fine but you can't control other peoples actions and that is the risk you take.


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## Dainerra

no, the comments now are towards steelhead who believes that taking dogs into public PERIOD is bad. Even if the dogs are well-behaved and have never caused an incident.

No one knows what happened in the original incident. I agree with those who think that maybe the dog should be put down. 

And I have kids. 2 of them. And I can guarantee that if they DID behave like the kids steelhead is describing, I would be taking the blame for their behavior and I would put a stop to it. And I can guarantee that it would only happen once.

My oldest DD used to watch kids acting crazy (DH and I worked at WDW so we went often) and say "If I acted like that would you kill me??" Even at 4 years old, she was able to recognize that some people don't know how to behave in public. 

I agree that you can't control other people's actions. But that doesn't make their actions my fault. If I'm standing on the sidewalk and some unsupervised child runs across the street to pet my dog, that isn't my fault. That is their parents fault for not teaching their kid to stay out of the street. Those are the incidents that steelhead is talking about, saying that dogs should be banned in public.


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## Dainerra

Steelhead said:


> When I say kids running all over I mean within 10 feet of their parents.
> 
> .


if the kids are old enough or trustworthy enough to not run up to a strange dog, then perhaps their parents shouldn't be letting them roam 10 feet away?? After all, if they don't know that then they probably shouldn't be trusted to not get in the van with the nice man with the candy either??

When my brother was 14, we went to the county fair. Mom said that we were all going to stay together. My brother saw a friend and ran off to say hi. My mom went after him and made him hold her hand for the rest of the afternoon. He got the point, though, and didn't wander off the next day. Is it really that hard to expect that people mind their own children instead of letting them wander around? 

It's pretty simple, if your child (or dog) can't display appropriate public behavior, then they don't belong in public. Or at least off of a leash.


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## ksotto333

One problem I noticed at a street art festival last year is that many dog owners don't have well behaved/trained dogs, and when 2 of these clueless pet owners are in the same area, it can get ugly in a hurry. Either that or the heat, hundreds of people and hot blacktop made them nervous and not too thrilled to be there. (and yes many parents are just as irresponsible) I just don't understand why that is a venue to take a dog. There isn't anything there for the dog. My dogs aren't big on paintings, pottery or woodworking. They would much rather be at a park, woods or lake. I take my dogs to a lot of places, but sometimes the best place for them is a home.


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## sparra

I am not disagreeing with you at all simply pointing out that there are all kinds of people in the general public and although we may not agree with how they behave they will be who they are going to be regardless of our expectations. Should dogs be banned from public events.....absolutely not.....but the risk is always there when we enter that environment.

ksotto333.....yes for every one of Mrs K and Abbyk9 there are probably 10 like the ones you describe which is disappointing. I take my hat off to the above for taking the time to educate people.....just isn't enough of them.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

Steelhead said:


> You buy a german shepherd or rottweiler you have to realize you cant just walk into a playground without people getting wide eyed, it is reality.


I find this statement to be true with my Rottweiler (not necessarily with the Shepherds, though). 

When we first arrive somewhere, a lot of people tend to be scared of Apollo. Once they see how calm and friendly he is, many will approach and ask questions, and sometimes ask to pet him (he is always happy to oblige, LOL).

It is a great opportunity for him to be a breed ambassador and for me to educate the (scared) public about the breed. If I didn't have that opportunity, the people would remain scared and ignorant. THAT encourages breed bans. Bob hears from his sister's neighbor's brother that Rottweilers are bad, and even though Bob's never met one before, he concludes that they are bad, so he supports the local breed ban. BUT if Bob would've met Apollo before voting on the breed ban, he would've realized that not all Rotties are bad.

IGNORANCE (and bad dog owners) leads to BSL, not responsible dog owners bringing well behaved dogs into public.


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## selzer

I thought the original comment was that if you want a dog that you could take anywhere without a negative reaction get a poodle or lab. I think I have been bitten by poodles too often to really like them all that much, and in training classes, it is always the labs that seem to act aggressively toward me, so I am a bit prejudiced. 

And yet, it is also true that a LOT of people do harbor negative feelings for our breed. I don't think the answer is to get another breed though. I think the answer is to take you dog to training, lots of it, socialize the dog extensively, take the dog everywhere and use him as an ambassador of the breed. 

If we just hide our nice shepherds in our homes and back yards, they will not do anything to improve the reputation. It is people like Mrs K and AbbyK9 who have their dogs out there, have never had a negative incident who IMPROVE the general public's opinion about the breed, and lessen the likelihood of BSL with regards to our breed. 

But we must still be vigilent against BSL, because there will always be those who harbor fear and prejudice against our dog. That Village ordinance here listed, that says any dog who might be frightening is considered viscious, well, I would run for council with the specific hope to get in and update the wording to that ordinance, because by that ordinance all of our dogs are vicious. 

Now, going back to read it again, and maybe quote it.


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## selzer

damaya said:


> I posted this in another thread some time back. This is straight out of our city ordinances regarding "Vicious dogs". Anyone else have one from their city to compare it with?
> 
> (17)"Vicious animal." *Any animal or animals that
> constitute a physical threat to human beings or other animals*.
> 
> (b)"Vicious dog" means:
> 
> (i)Any dog with a known propensity, tendency or
> disposition to attack unprovoked, to cause injury to, or otherwise threaten the
> safety of human beings or domestic animals; or
> 
> (ii)*Any dog which because of its size*, p*hysical nature*, or
> vicious propensity* is capable of inflicting serious physical harm or death to
> humans and which would constitute a danger to human life or property* if it were
> not kept in the manner required by this chapter; or
> 
> (iii)Any dog which, without provocation, attacks or bites,
> or has attacked or bitten, a human being or domestic animal; or
> 
> (iv)Any dog owned or harbored primarily or in part for the
> purpose of dog fighting, or any dog trained for dog fighting; or
> 
> (v)Any dog that frequently or habitually snarls or growls
> at or snaps or jumps upon or threatens persons lawfully upon the public
> sidewalks, streets, alleys, or public places of the town.


I think we ALL own vicious dogs according to this wording. For Pete's sake, a rat terrier constitutes a threat to rats, I suppose they are vicious too.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> I think we ALL own vicious dogs according to this wording. For Pete's sake, a rat terrier constitutes a threat to rats, I suppose they are vicious too.


Oh come on, we all know whats meant by that. 

According to the NY State Law... if the great danes owner had pressed charges against me, I would have been in a LOT of trouble because her issues are listed on this very Forum. Meaning I KNEW about her problems. If I hadn't done it... the State of New York would have taken that decision from me IF charges were pressed or it otherwise had been reported.
She would have been deemed a threat and been destroyed. After reading the law and several other incidents in this State I know I've done the right decision.


----------



## Steelhead

ksotto333 said:


> One problem I noticed at a street art festival last year is that many dog owners don't have well behaved/trained dogs, and when 2 of these clueless pet owners are in the same area, it can get ugly in a hurry. Either that or the heat, hundreds of people and hot blacktop made them nervous and not too thrilled to be there. (and yes many parents are just as irresponsible) *I just don't understand why that is a venue to take a dog. There isn't anything there for the dog. My dogs aren't big on paintings, pottery or woodworking.* *They would much rather be at a park, woods or lake.* I take my dogs to a lot of places, but sometimes the best place for them is a home.


This is what I am saying. Why do you have to bring your dog to a parade or ice cream shop? Do you need people to see how well behaved your dog is and compliment you on him? I enjoyed taking my dog to the beach or forest when no one else was there so we can run, throw the ball and play together. I dont need to bring my dog in public so people can tell me how pretty he is or how well behaved he is. Most people dont realize that other people dont want your dog around especially if he is one of the ones on the potential ban lists. If you go to the ice cream shop dont wait in line with your dog have your husband off to the side with him sitting quietly. That is being a breed ambassador. Forcing people to wait in line with your dog is just racking up points to ban dogs.


----------



## Steelhead

AbbyK9 said:


> I'm perfectly happy to take my leave from this discussion. I probably would not have posted anything else had it not been for the "people like you" personal attack from the other poster.


I apologize for this comment, you are right, I do not know you and should not have said that.


----------



## Mrs.K

Steelhead said:


> This is what I am saying. Why do you have to bring your dog to a parade or ice cream shop? Do you need people to see how well behaved your dog is and compliment you on him? I enjoyed taking my dog to the beach or forest when no one else was there so we can run, throw the ball and play together. I dont need to bring my dog in public so people can tell me how pretty he is or how well behaved he is. Most people dont realize that other people dont want your dog around especially if he is one of the ones on the potential ban lists. If you go to the ice cream shop dont wait in line with your dog have your husband off to the side with him sitting quietly. That is being a breed ambassador. Forcing people to wait in line with your dog is just racking up points to ban dogs.


Because certain type of working dogs need to be worked around these things. Why do you think, Service Dogs in training are worked around these things? Why do you think Therapy Dogs are worked around these things? 

Why do you think SAR dog handlers take their dogs to fairs for fundraising or to set up a booth? 

Why do you think Rescues walk around with adoptable dogs wearing vests "I'm up for adoption" and/or have stands presenting dogs trying to raise money?

I don't have kids. My husband is deployed. If it wasn't for my dogs, I'd be alone almost 24/7 and I do not leave my house without one of my dogs. Why? Companionship. Because I don't want to be alone. 
Another reason, because it's a good training and it raises awareness to people that there actually is a K9 Team out there. And because I just want my dog with me, period.


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## Dainerra

Steelhead said:


> This is what I am saying. Why do you have to bring your dog to a parade or ice cream shop? Do you need people to see how well behaved your dog is and compliment you on him? I enjoyed taking my dog to the beach or forest when no one else was there so we can run, throw the ball and play together. I dont need to bring my dog in public so people can tell me how pretty he is or how well behaved he is. Most people dont realize that other people dont want your dog around especially if he is one of the ones on the potential ban lists. If you go to the ice cream shop dont wait in line with your dog have your husband off to the side with him sitting quietly. That is being a breed ambassador. Forcing people to wait in line with your dog is just racking up points to ban dogs.


except that you wouldn't be able to do those things under this new law either. no parks. no walking across the parking lot by the gas station if you stop for gas on a trip. no walking the trails at the forest. no setting on the sidelines watching your kids play soccer. 

I am on a non-dog forum and there are people there who want to ban dogs from petstores.


----------



## selzer

Steelhead said:


> This is what I am saying. * Why do you have to bring your dog to a parade or ice cream shop*?
> 
> Because, it is the closest thing to the chaos of a dog show. There are a lot of dogs at a show, but even more people, young people, old people, kids, fat people, foreign people, people with hats, people of different races. The first experience our dogs get to a LOT of people should not be when we have paid an entrance fee and expect them to do the job in the ring. Some dogs would be just fine with that, but others would definitely not be focused on what we are doing in the ring.
> 
> Do you need people to see how well behaved your dog is and compliment you on him? I enjoyed* taking my dog to the beach or forest when no one else was there so we can run, throw the ball and play together*.
> 
> See, that is what YOU want to do with your dog. I might want to take mine to a hospital or nursing home or home for retarded men. My dog will NOT learn how to be comfortable in all settings if I only take him places when there are no people around.
> 
> I dont need to bring my dog in public so people can tell me how pretty he is or how well behaved he is. *Most people dont realize that other people dont want your dog around especially if he is one of the ones on the potential ban lists*.
> 
> Frankly, I don't give a **** if people don't want my dog around. It is not about them. What I do with my dogs has nothing to do with them at all.
> 
> *If you go to the ice cream shop dont wait in line with your dog have your husband off to the side with him sitting quietly*.
> 
> 
> That would be a neat trick seeing how I don't have a husband. So, now if you want to take your dog to the ice-cream stand, you need to be married, LOL! Or you cannot be an ambassador for the breed. FYI, my dog stands in line with me and is not bothering other people because she knows she is going to get ice cream, and that is all she cares about. She certainly does not want to be bothered by other people's kids.
> 
> That is being a breed ambassador. Forcing people to wait in line with your dog is just racking up points to ban dogs.


Dogs who are exposed to people are not the dogs that are likely to cause breed bans. It is the dogs that are hidden away, kept away from the public that if ever they dog get out of a door or open gate, or dig out of a yard, these are the dogs that are totally unequiped to deal with people and are the most likely to bite someone. Even a dog racing around at an ice cream stand, or at a beach full of people, at a parade, or at a street fair, these dogs are used to people and UNLIKELY to bite anyone. They may annoy someone. They may even scare someone, but the incidents that cause BSL, are generally serious biting incidents, and the majority of those are caused by too little exposure to people, places, and things rather than the opposite.


----------



## Steelhead

I dont need to bring my dog in public so people can tell me how pretty he is or how well behaved he is. *Most people dont realize that other people dont want your dog around especially if he is one of the ones on the potential ban lists*. 

*Selzer response:
**Frankly, I don't give a **** if people don't want my dog around. It is not about them. What I do with my dogs has nothing to do with them at all. 
*
This is the exact attitude that leads to breed bans. It does have something to do with them when you bring your dog to ice cream shops and parades. People dont give a **** that you need to socialize your dog for dog shows either. Do you make sure every dog is temperment tested and gaurunteed not to bite before bring them in these environments? 

Take them to a dog park, petsmart, or join a schutzhund club where there are a bunch of people that want dogs around for socializing. The other issue with you bringing your well behaved, temperment tested dog to a packed parade or ice cream store is some other joker whose dog is not temperment tested will see that and say "well that dog does well in this environment I will bring mine next time" and now you have a dog that is not well behaved and the complaints poor in and now all dogs are banned. I will repeat what I said earlier, I am not against them being there just keep them well away from people and kids. Seek out other people with dogs and talk to them.


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## Mrs.K

Good grief... :help:

Please don't get a dog!


----------



## Steelhead

Mrs.K said:


> Good grief... :help:
> 
> Please don't get a dog!


This is a hot topic for me and worth debating because I am on the city counsel and these are real issues and proposals that come up. 

It is just like the law that requires smokers to be 20 feet from the entrance to public places, if people would just practice some common sense we wouldnt need all the laws and bans.


----------



## DharmasMom

Steelhead said:


> I dont need to bring my dog in public so people can tell me how pretty he is or how well behaved he is. *Most people dont realize that other people dont want your dog around especially if he is one of the ones on the potential ban lists*.
> 
> *Selzer response:
> **Frankly, I don't give a **** if people don't want my dog around. It is not about them. What I do with my dogs has nothing to do with them at all.
> *
> This is the exact attitude that leads to breed bans. It does have something to do with them when you bring your dog to ice cream shops and parades. People dont give a **** that you need to socialize your dog for dog shows either. Do you make sure every dog is temperment tested and gaurunteed not to bite before bring them in these environments?
> 
> Take them to a dog park, petsmart, or join a schutzhund club where there are a bunch of people that want dogs around for socializing. The other issue with you bringing your well behaved, temperment tested dog to a packed parade or ice cream store is some other joker whose dog is not temperment tested will see that and say "well that dog does well in this environment I will bring mine next time" and now you have a dog that is not well behaved and the complaints poor in and now all dogs are banned. I will repeat what I said earlier, I am not against them being there just keep them well away from people and kids. Seek out other people with dogs and talk to them.



Are you serious? So people shouldn't bring their dogs to places like the ice cream stand or a park for socialization because of what OTHER people think? I agree with selzer, I don't CARE what other people think. My dog is well behaved and if I have to put up with some woman's brat running into my shins in Kroger with the kiddie basket because she isn't watching her kid or another woman's brat running into my backside in Target as he runs through the store than people can put up with my dog going places with me within reason. (And yes, both of those things happened recently.)

I don't particularly like children. I find that most of them in public annoy me to no end but I also realize it is completely unreasonable to think that I will not encounter them in public. It is unreasonable to expect dog owner's, who love their dogs and enjoy doing things with them, to follow such restrictive rules and laws and be unable to go or take their dogs anywhere just because they may encounter another human being.


----------



## DharmasMom

Steelhead said:


> This is a hot topic for me and worth debating because I am on the city counsel and these are real issues and proposals that come up.
> 
> It is just like the law that requires smokers to be 20 feet from the entrance to public places, if people would just practice some common sense we wouldnt need all the laws and bans.



Newsflash: People don't HAVE common sense. Please get that thought out of your head.


----------



## AbbyK9

> I just don't understand why that is a venue to take a dog. There isn't anything there for the dog. My dogs aren't big on paintings, pottery or woodworking. They would much rather be at a park, woods or lake.


To be honest, my dog doesn't care very much if she's walking leashed at an art festival or in the woods. She just likes to walk and she loves to be with me. (She is a Velcro dog who follows me around the house even if I just get up to go to the bathroom.)

She also enjoys the attention and petting she gets from people of all ages, shapes, and sizes. Remember, my dog is a Therapy Dog - visiting with people is what she does. She loves meeting new people. Heck, she'll be in your lap if you ask her to, and she'll give you hugs (she snuggles her head into your chest and stands still to be hugged) if you spread your arms and ask for hugs.

My dog loves being where there are people. So ... me going to an event that I would enjoy to see and buy things at and her being at the same event to enjoy a walk and meet people. It's a win/win for us.

When I get my pup sometime this summer (looks like his litter will be bred in April ... so, fingers crossed), he will be going to as many places as possible while he is growing and he will be exposed to as many things as possible. When he's little, I'll be able to carry him and once he gets bigger and learns leash manners, we'll do it leashed. They say that a properly socialized dog should meet at least 1000 different people in his first year. I'm going to make sure he has as many (positive) experiences as possible growing up so he'll be a solid, well-socialized dog.


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## ksotto333

The festival that I attended that really brought this up..was very hot..held on Main St..(blacktop..also hot)..small 12x12 canvas booths with roofs..containing the various artists and their work.. I just saw too many miserable dogs that weren't happy with other dogs..there wasn't grass around for potty breaks, crowded enough in the booths for people let alone adding dogs..I think mine were happy home in the ac with a bone..I do take mine out and many places are appropriate..but I try to think of my dog's comfort and what are they getting out of the experience..I think any legitimate type of service dog that needs exposed to whatever is out is a totally different topic. They were happy when I came home and we played in the yard..


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## Jessiewessie99

Steelhead, People like us don't lead to breed bans. Its the idiot owners and ignorant, and general public that have no common sense that lead to breed bans. People on this board do their best to educate and have the common courtesy to train their dogs to be well behaved. We are the ones wit the common sense and polite enough to make sure our dogs are NOT a nuisance in public. Because if we didn't, we would make ourselves look bad, and our breed of choice look bad.

It is NOT our responsibility if someone's child misbehaves in public. I have yet to encounter a child who has approached my dogs and I in a crazy manner and didn't ask me first. They usually ask first or don't do anything but stare. One instance is when my family and I adopted Tanner. Sometime after adopting him, I decided to walk him around the neighborhood. The school across the street had just let out, the side walk wasn't extremely crowded, but I still walked Tanner on the grass so people could walk without us in the way. One girl asked me if she should pet him, I said yes, and put him in a sit and showed her how to approach him then a few more kids came up and asked and I showed them how to approach him. Tanner is a very sweet, gentle and mellow dog and loves kids. You could tell he was enjoying himself.LOL. A few of the parents commented how well behaved he was. After the kids were done petting him I was on my way.

Of course I don't force anyone to pet my dog if they don't want to or if the parent say their child can't pet the dog. I don't force my dog on anyone.


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## RocketDog

What about people with allergies? I have a friend whose son is so severely allergic he can't even come to our house. She's tried loading him up with Benadryl and he's on daily loratadine, but still gets hives and a swelling throat. 
Shouldn't a child be able to reasonably expect an ice cream shop to be a safe place?

What about the people who are extremely frightened by dogs? That same friend, with the son, grew up in Scotland on a property next door to a working sheep farm. There was a collie that terrorized her to no end. (I suspect part of the severity of her son's allergy is because she kept him away from all animals, but dogs in particular ). She certainly would be terrified of a dog in public. My therapy lab was the only dog she would tolerate. Ive had Rocket since aug, she met him as a pup, and she still won't pet him or get near him. 

I realize these are minority situations, but they certainly aren't minor to the people in them. 

To be fair, I take Rocket many many places, where it seems reasonable, and I always ask permission if there is management. I do not force my dog upon others, and generally avoid situations I deem risky to him or others.


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## Mrs.K

Should we kill and ban all the bees out there because there are thousands of people allergic to them? 

What about all those trees? Oh, let's cut them all down and burn them because Millions of people are allergic and while we are at it. Ban all the cars because EARTH IS ALLERGIC to them.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs

RocketDog said:


> What about people with allergies? I have a friend whose son is so severely allergic he can't even come to our house. She's tried loading him up with Benadryl and he's on daily loratadine, but still gets hives and a swelling throat.
> Shouldn't a child be able to reasonably expect an ice cream shop to be a safe place?


IMO, this argument is far fetched.

People with dog allergies are generally NOT affected in the outside air, provided they stay a reasonable distance away and do not go up and touch the dog. Being OUTSIDE in a line with someone is quite different than being in someone's pet dander filled home.

Interesting that it's okay for people to trail a cancer-causing cloud of smoke behind them as they walk down the street with a ciggie, but bringing your dog somewhere is somehow a huge health risk.  You can't help but breathe the cigarette smoke... that crap travels far. The dog: just stay a little bit away and you're fine.


----------



## Steelhead

Believe it or not I am on your side (the side of the dog owner). I get angry dog owners that came up to me all the time when we banned dogs at the beach and at the city festivities. Some were not to blame but others I had warned. They were the ones bringing their dog to the beach on a crowded Saturday and walking right through the middle of the beach (almost like they had a point to prove). They always say, well my dog didnt bite anyone or bother anyone (Actualy no dog bit anyone) but people complained and didnt want them around and now they are banned for good.

People see this on the news, 
15 most dangerous dogs
they see a german shepherd or a rottweiler at the crowded parade and the next thing you know the city gets 50 calls demanding that dogs be banned. The city has their hands tied at that point. Because the complaints are logged if a dog were to bite or attack someone and the lawyers got their hands on the fact that there was previous complaints and the city "did nothing" the city will get sued and taken to the cleaners. So the laws are partially in place to protect the city as well, as selfish as that might seem. Like it or not this is the way it is. So despite the fact that you think you are being a breed ambassador by bringing your well behaved dog to crowded parade and ice cream shops you are fueling the breed ban/law fire.


----------



## RocketDog

Mrs.K said:


> Should we kill and ban all the bees out there because there are thousands of people allergic to them?
> 
> What about all those trees? Oh, let's cut them all down and burn them because Millions of people are allergic and while we are at it. Ban all the cars because EARTH IS ALLERGIC to them.



This is a ridiculous comparison, and I'm not sure why suddenly you have problems with me. I appreciated your advice PM regarding tugging with Rocket when he was a small pup and had hoped to discuss that further now that he's done teething. 

Bees and trees are a naturally occurring part of nature. Dogs are not in the same category. Things like this (someone suffering a severe attack inside of a store, etc) lead to frivolous lawsuits, which is why outrageous legislation comes into play.

Also, I was referring to _inside_ shops, not outside lines, to the poster after Mrs. K. I can't remember who that was and I can't see it right now.


----------



## Warrior09

I personally wouldn't let any1 pet my dog.... I'm picky about any1 touching my pets. I don't go to a parade to let my dog get annoyed by children or adults. If i seen a child running towards my dog I would yell stop at the child and tell them to go back to their parents and I would take my dog and leave. 
I took my Rottie to festival one year and Omg I basically had to be a bitch to every1 saying No you can't pet her. But im not saying she would bite I KNOW FOR A FACT she wouldn't bite, but i don't want children annoying her to death. When u let one pet the dog others will ask you if they can pet. SO its best to never let any1 pet your dog no matter what  you brought the dog for your enjoyment; not others.


----------



## Mrs.K

No, I have no issues with you at all. But why should I keep my dogs locked up in the house and backyard because somebody could be allergic to dogs at a fair? 

So I can't even walk my dog in my neighborhood anymore because somebody could be allergic? Is that really what it comes down to? 

And if an allergic person to dogs goes to a petstore... they KNOW that they could encounter a dog and would be stupid to walk in. 

It is well known in the public that dogs are allowed to petstores, tractor supply and ganders mountain. If somebody is allergic to dogs and goes there, knowing he could meet a dog, then they are knowingly taking that risk. I would never sue somebody over just because I had an allergic reaction to a dog while I KNEW I could encounter them. 



RocketDog said:


> This is a ridiculous comparison, and I'm not sure why suddenly you have problems with me. I appreciated your advice PM regarding tugging with Rocket when he was a small pup and had hoped to discuss that further now that he's done teething.
> 
> Bees and trees are a naturally occurring part of nature. Dogs are not in the same category. Things like this (someone suffering a severe attack inside of a store, etc) lead to frivolous lawsuits, which is why outrageous legislation comes into play.
> 
> Also, I was referring to _inside_ shops, not outside lines, to the poster after Mrs. K. I can't remember who that was and I can't see it right now.


----------



## selzer

Steelhead said:


> I dont need to bring my dog in public so people can tell me how pretty he is or how well behaved he is. *Most people dont realize that other people dont want your dog around especially if he is one of the ones on the potential ban lists*.
> 
> *Selzer response:
> **Frankly, I don't give a **** if people don't want my dog around. It is not about them. What I do with my dogs has nothing to do with them at all.
> *
> This is the exact attitude that leads to breed bans. It does have something to do with them when you bring your dog to ice cream shops and parades. * People dont give a **** that you need to socialize your dog for dog shows either.* Do you make sure every dog is temperment tested and gaurunteed not to bite before bring them in these environments?
> 
> *Take them to a dog park, petsmart, or join a schutzhund club where there are a bunch of people that want dogs around for socializing*. The other issue with you bringing your well behaved, temperment tested dog to a packed parade or ice cream store is some other joker whose dog is not temperment tested will see that and say "well that dog does well in this environment I will bring mine next time" and now you have a dog that is not well behaved and the complaints poor in and now all dogs are banned. I will repeat what I said earlier, *I am not against them being there just keep them well away from people and kids.* Seek out other people with dogs and talk to them.


Because you are not someone who goes to dog shows, you simply do not know. People who are looking to have therapy dogs, or rock solid pets are going to encourage people to pet their dogs. People who want to take a dog to a dog show could care less if people pet them. In fact, I do NOT want people petting my dogs. I allow it on occasion if I am asked politely and there is not some other reason that I feel it is not a good idea. 

It is important for my dog to be in the presence of people and still do his job. You cannot get this anywhere but where there are people. If my dog pays no attention to people, children eating ice cream cones -- yupp they have them at dog shows and it has caused more than one dog to lose his qualify ribbon. 

The good news is that the people do not even know they are being used. That my dog is at my side has nothing to do with them. I am asking them for nothing. 

I do not see that you are on our side at all because you are horribly misinformed. Dog people are not the people that are likely to cause the problems, it is the general public. They (dog people) have dogs. Why do they need to run up to your dog, stare it in the eye, and without asking pet it all over the head, or hug it? We are training ourselves, the dog, and the general public when our dogs are out and about with us. So hanging out with dog people does not do what is needed to be done. 

Also, maybe where you live there are dog parks, pet stores, and schutzhund clubs. Where I live, in the biggest county in Ohio, there is no dog parks, no pet stores, no schutzhund clubs, the beaches are off limits to dogs. What we do have is the ice cream stand, and parades, and street fairs. One must use what they have. 

Rocketdog, they can ban dogs due to allergies right after they ban perfume. Perfume causes me to have asthma attacks. Some little old grandma goes wafting by and I totally can't breathe at all. But that is MY problem. If YOU have an allergy to dogs and you see a dog, don't go over there today. Oh well. It sucks sometimes to have a problem. I haven't been in a bar or club because I can't handle cigarette smoke, so they finally banned smoking inside public places. Guess what, I STILL can't go, because of my perfume issue. So far I have not heard of a committee to ban the use of perfume in public places. So leave my dogs alone. If you have a problem with dogs, avoid them. Don't force all of them to go away.


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## RocketDog

Of course dogs should be allowed outside, do we really have to go there?

My comment was referring to places that are not as obvious as tractor supply, petstores, etc. I got the impression that people were also talking about taking their dogs to EVERY place they went. Including clothing stores, etc. 

I love taking my dog to places like that, it's excellent for him and good training. I hope ridiculous legislation doesn't start cropping up to hinder it. It's not as acceptable here as it is in parts of Europe, such as Germany.


Oh, and selzer, I TOTALLY agree with you on the perfume part. I HATE that. 

Lastly, to clarify: I am NOT is support of any BSL. At all. I just wanted to point out there are other considerations besides ones I'd seen mentioned here, that legislators might look at.


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## selzer

Warrior09 said:


> I personally wouldn't let any1 pet my dog.... I'm picky about any1 touching my pets. I don't go to a parade to let my dog get annoyed by children or adults. If i seen a child running towards my dog I would yell stop at the child and tell them to go back to their parents and I would take my dog and leave.
> I took my Rottie to festival one year and Omg I basically had to be a bitch to every1 saying No you can't pet her. But im not saying she would bite I KNOW FOR A FACT she wouldn't bite, but i don't want children annoying her to death. When u let one pet the dog others will ask you if they can pet. SO its best to never let any1 pet your dog no matter what  you brought the dog for your enjoyment; not others.


I know this is just me, and don't get terribly offended at my aspie issues, but could you please type out anyone and everyone, it is two more keystrokes I know, but it is a lot easier than finding the 1-key, and it drives me up the wall, LOL!

I do not yell stop to the child. Parents don't like people yelling at their kids, and it does not guaranty that they will listen. Instead I body block them. If a child runs unabated toward my dog, I step in front of my dog and prevent them (the children) from making contact. 

I think it is important for people to allow people to pet dogs. But they should ONLY allow it where it is evident that the potential petter has a level of self-control. Politely asking demonstrates a level of self-control. It gives you the opportunity to provide any necessary information, like, let the dog sniff you then scratch under the chin, etc. And yes, even if you let one stranger pet your dog, you can tell the next stranger no. Even if someone asks politely, you can say "no."


----------



## selzer

RocketDog said:


> Of course dogs should be allowed outside, do we really have to go there?
> 
> My comment was referring to places that are not as obvious as tractor supply, petstores, etc. I got the impression that people were also talking about taking their dogs to EVERY place they went. Including clothing stores, etc.
> 
> I love taking my dog to places like that, it's excellent for him and good training. I hope ridiculous legislation doesn't start cropping up to hinder it. It's not as acceptable here as it is in parts of Europe, such as Germany.
> 
> 
> Oh, and selzer, I TOTALLY agree with you on the perfume part. I HATE that.
> 
> Lastly, to clarify: I am NOT is support of any BSL. At all. I just wanted to point out there are other considerations besides ones I'd seen mentioned here, that legislators might look at.


I don't force my dogs on people. Totally unnecessary and annoying. I wish people were the same about there children. I mean, my nieces walk on water, but someone else's kid's peanut butter paw is something I would rather not have on my pant leg (it attracts dogs for one thing). 

I think we were discussing taking dogs to parades or festivals or other outdoor events. There was a terrible accident that involved a dog and an irresponsible owner that probably sparked these conversations. Dog haters are everywhere, and any nasty incidents will be used against us. It is important that people in elected positions look at the statistics, look at the whole picture. There have been fewer dog maulings at festivals than people being seriously injured by ride-failures, wild animal attractions, racing accidents (animal or automobile), collapsing structures, and food poisoning. 

If someone has a dog at such an event and is allowing the dog to encroach on other people, they should be approached and even fined if necessary. But banning animals at events to prevent the possibility of there ever being an issue, well, you might as well ban all events.


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## Warrior09

selzer said:


> I know this is just me, and don't get terribly offended at my aspie issues, but could you please type out anyone and everyone, it is two more keystrokes I know, but it is a lot easier than finding the 1-key, and it drives me up the wall, LOL!
> 
> I do not yell stop to the child. Parents don't like people yelling at their kids, and it does not guaranty that they will listen. Instead I body block them. If a child runs unabated toward my dog, I step in front of my dog and prevent them (the children) from making contact.
> 
> I think it is important for people to allow people to pet dogs. But they should ONLY allow it where it is evident that the potential petter has a level of self-control. Politely asking demonstrates a level of self-control. It gives you the opportunity to provide any necessary information, like, let the dog sniff you then scratch under the chin, etc. And yes, even if you let one stranger pet your dog, you can tell the next stranger no. Even if someone asks politely, you can say "no."


 
Sorry LOL I'm just so use to only typing that way..... True I probably shouldn't yell at the children but i would rather stop them in their tracks. Adults should watch their children. I can't stand annoying yelling pestering children, who are running around and being buttheads to other ppl. Thats why i quit going to festivals and other public events with Bella. I don't want to put her in a situation to were she thinks she will have to even just growl at someone to leave her alone. 
I see nothing wrong with people taking their pets to these events. I use to love them personally. I just love my dogs more  
I totally agree with everything Abbyk9 and mrs.K said in this forum. 
When you have small children teach them to respect and leave strange dogs alone. Teach them how to handle/pet a dog in a crowd of people. 
I love Rottweilers, Pits and GSD and even Dobies. They are great dogs with training and love and even respect. Ive owned all them before so I'm knowledgeable about them exspecially Rotties Ive had 4 of them. 
Bella is a laid back dog and my siblings can do what ever they want to her and she will not flinch, just wags that nob tail LOL and sticks the tongue out to the side. I know how she reacts to children and people she wouldnt hurt a soul but my whole point is "I wouldn't want to chance anything still yet" Some drunk might get all violent and then Bella would flip out trying to protect me and the people she loves. That her temperment. One day I would love to take her and Hachi, Now that hachi is inside and i Have a one on one with him and walking him everyday. Ive the hang of it all LOL 
I don't believe you should ban a certain breed because of an incident that occured. Rotties are the best dogs ever, i love them more than GSD personally but I respect them. You have to have respect for a breed. Just like a Tigers (beautiful, massive, Intelligent) but they shouldn't be owned by the public and you should respect their powerfulness. 
If that makes any sense?!?!?!? trying to give an example of what i'm trying to say lol
If you don't know anything about a breed, don't buy one. simple as that. 
Learn and educate yourself about a breed though before you put your two sense about how bad that "dog" is. 
Even those people in the counsel and governmental officials should learn and educate themselves before signing a ban that breed paper. 
Its boils my blood. I hate chihuahuas but i'm not going to go sign that paper saying ban those daredevils that will bite you LOL 

LEARN
RESPECT
LOVE
TRAIN
SOCIALIZE

Thats what you need to be good owners


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## Rott-n-GSDs

selzer said:


> I know this is just me, and don't get terribly offended at my aspie issues, but could you please type out anyone and everyone, it is two more keystrokes I know, but it is a lot easier than finding the 1-key, and it drives me up the wall, LOL!


Nope, not just you, LOL.


----------



## AbbyK9

> I got the impression that people were also talking about taking their dogs to EVERY place they went. Including clothing stores, etc.


I think you just got the wrong idea about what locations people were talking about. The ban in Watertown would affect dogs going to outdoor events - like parades or the farmer's market. And Steelhead was talking about outside settings as well, like sitting in front of the ice cream place with your dog, enjoying an ice cream. Not inside.

Of course, in most places it wouldn't be legal for a dog to be inside a clothing store anyway, only Service Dogs. But again, with Service Dogs, too, you can't keep them out because someone else is allergic. Everyone has to be accommodated reasonably. That's why Service Dog handlers spend a fair amount of time grooming their dogs, to make sure they don't shed a lot when they're in public. So that they aren't the cause for someone else's allergies. (Unfortunately, there's nothing they can do about people who are afraid except show that their dogs are well-trained and won't bother other people.)

It's the same for Therapy Dogs that go to hospitals - we're required to groom our dogs prior to visiting. I usually do a bath with dry shampoo and a thorough brushing before I visit, plus a nail trim to make sure there are no sharp edges on the nails and that they're not long. We also have the possibility to encounter people with allergies, especially in hospitals, so it's important to cut down on as much shedding and dander as possible. I can't eliminate it, but I can at least try not to be a problem.


----------



## DharmasMom

Steelhead said:


> Believe it or not I am on your side (the side of the dog owner). I get angry dog owners that came up to me all the time when we banned dogs at the beach and at the city festivities. Some were not to blame but others I had warned. They were the ones bringing their dog to the beach on a crowded Saturday and walking right through the middle of the beach (almost like they had a point to prove). They always say, well my dog didnt bite anyone or bother anyone (Actualy no dog bit anyone) but people complained and didnt want them around and now they are banned for good.
> 
> People see this on the news,
> 15 most dangerous dogs
> they see a german shepherd or a rottweiler at the crowded parade and the next thing you know the city gets 50 calls demanding that dogs be banned. The city has their hands tied at that point. Because the complaints are logged if a dog were to bite or attack someone and the lawyers got their hands on the fact that there was previous complaints and the city "did nothing" the city will get sued and taken to the cleaners. So the laws are partially in place to protect the city as well, as selfish as that might seem. Like it or not this is the way it is. So despite the fact that you think you are being a breed ambassador by bringing your well behaved dog to crowded parade and ice cream shops you are fueling the breed ban/law fire.



Seriously?? That is about the stupidest thing I have heard. You banned dogs from the beach just because some people complained?? There was no "incident" or bite?? Just a bunch of ill informed people that started squealing "OMG!! It's a GSD/Rottweiler/Doberman/insertthebreedhere and you guys rushed to punish the dogs and dog owners that enjoyed an afternoon at the beach?? 

Please don't say you are on the dog owner's side. With "friends" like you we certainly don't need any enemies.


----------



## selzer

If we hide all our dogs at home, and never take them anywhere, people get the impression they don't belong ANYWHERE. And where does it stop? Dogs do not belong in... Dogs don't belong at.... Dogs don't belong. 

Everyone was gung ho for a bike path here. And with Rails to trails, they opened up the Greenway trail for bicycles. Cyclists DRIVE to the trail and then go biking. While it is not against the LAW for cycles to be on the roads and streets, drivers think that cyclists should not be on the road. Some of us do use bikes for transportation as well as recreation. If you are going from Rock Creek to Austinburg, the trail may be the right choice. There is no trail from Jefferson to Geneva though. And the bike path is used by horses, and dogs, and skaters, and strollers, and fitness walkers. Should bikers give up their rights to the roadways because there is a trail some 10 miles away from their home? Should dog owners give up public parks because there may be a dog park somewhere within 100 miles? 

I am not a fan of dog parks because people start categorizing dogs as belonging in them and no where else.


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## Mrs.K

Watertown doesn't even have a dog park. There is a dog park on post at Ft.Drum though. But what are people supposed to do that don't have any connections on post?


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## DharmasMom

And where to the generalizations stop? Even if you have an incident then it should be taken up with THAT particular dog owner and the person the incident occurred with or their parents. The incident should be investigated as an individual incident and appropriate action taken. 

If someone goes out, gets drunk, drives and kills a family of four; we don't immediately start screaming ban alcohol and bars or cars. If a kid gets killed on a bicycle we don't start lobbying to ban all bicycles. If a child dies from an new, undiagnosed peanut allergy we don't suddenly get anti-peanut and start screaming to take Jiff and Peter Pan off of the shelves and never sell it to anyone again. AND we don't ban all guns even though plenty are used to kill people each year.


----------



## selzer

Who knows where it all ends. I have been depressed since they killed the dog some old lady tripped over. 

Stop the world, I wanna get off. 

Isn't it amazing that dogs used to run about villages and towns with their boys or on their own. No one worried that Fido would eat a neighbor child. No one worried that they would get sued... well, except for Dorothy's folks.


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## AbbyK9

> Watertown doesn't even have a dog park.


For what it is worth, the reason Watertown doesn't have a dog park is because the city council has been voting against creating a dog park for years. They were offered a private donation of $200,000 to cover the costs for building and upkeep of a dog park in the city by a private individual and they turned it down because he wanted to name it after his deceased dog!

The only "dog park" I know of in the town is the one at the SPCA. I think it's open to the public but they only have a 4ft fence.


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## RocketDog

AbbyK9 said:


> I think you just got the wrong idea about what locations people were talking about. The ban in Watertown would affect dogs going to outdoor events - like parades or the farmer's market. And Steelhead was talking about outside settings as well, like sitting in front of the ice cream place with your dog, enjoying an ice cream. Not inside.
> 
> Of course, in most places it wouldn't be legal for a dog to be inside a clothing store anyway, only Service Dogs. But again, with Service Dogs, too, you can't keep them out because someone else is allergic. Everyone has to be accommodated reasonably. That's why Service Dog handlers spend a fair amount of time grooming their dogs, to make sure they don't shed a lot when they're in public. So that they aren't the cause for someone else's allergies. (Unfortunately, there's nothing they can do about people who are afraid except show that their dogs are well-trained and won't bother other people.)
> 
> It's the same for Therapy Dogs that go to hospitals - we're required to groom our dogs prior to visiting. I usually do a bath with dry shampoo and a thorough brushing before I visit, plus a nail trim to make sure there are no sharp edges on the nails and that they're not long. We also have the possibility to encounter people with allergies, especially in hospitals, so it's important to cut down on as much shedding and dander as possible. I can't eliminate it, but I can at least try not to be a problem.


Yup. My labrador was a certified therapy dog, and we did visits initially, until my three little beasts.  Then we just did school programs, which I'm still doing now with my pup. Thanks for clarifying--I had not read all the pages prior, just the last few. (I'm sorry! It was just too huge!)


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## sparra

selzer said:


> Who knows where it all ends. I have been depressed since they killed the dog some old lady tripped over.
> 
> Isn't it amazing that dogs used to run about villages and towns with their boys or on their own. No one worried that Fido would eat a neighbor child. No one worried that they would get sued... well, except for Dorothy's folks.


Are you talking about the recent thread on here??? If you are for what it is worth that "some old lady" was in her nineties and broke her hip and is lucky to be alive while her poor ninety something year old husband was being aggressively barked at......show some compassion hey.....I was more upset that the lady broke her hip....but that is just me.... In the "good old days" you are talking about that dog wouldn't have got even a remote second chance....he would have been taken out the back and shot....


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## DharmasMom

sparra said:


> Are you talking about the recent thread on here??? If you are for what it is worth that "some old lady" was in her nineties and broke her hip and is lucky to be alive while her poor ninety something year old husband was being aggressively barked at......show some compassion hey.....I was more upset that the lady broke her hip....but that is just me.... In the "good old days" you are talking about that dog wouldn't have got even a remote second chance....he would have been taken out the back and shot....



What thread is this?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

RocketDog said:


> This is a ridiculous comparison, and I'm not sure why suddenly you have problems with me. I appreciated your advice PM regarding tugging with Rocket when he was a small pup and had hoped to discuss that further now that he's done teething.
> 
> Bees and trees are a naturally occurring part of nature. Dogs are not in the same category. Things like this (someone suffering a severe attack inside of a store, etc) lead to frivolous lawsuits, which is why outrageous legislation comes into play.
> 
> Also, I was referring to _inside_ shops, not outside lines, to the poster after Mrs. K. I can't remember who that was and I can't see it right now.


As someone who works at a clothing store, I will tell you NO, the only animals allowed in our stores are SERVICE ANIMALS, others, no. Of course their are idiots who don't think the rule applies to their little Foo-Foo. My sister works at Baskin Robbins, and no dogs are allowed inside the shop unless they are service dogs. So I really don't people who are allergic to dogs would have an issue as I hardly see any dogs who are service dogs inside the store.


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## Jessiewessie99

Steelhead said:


> Believe it or not I am on your side (the side of the dog owner). I get angry dog owners that came up to me all the time when we banned dogs at the beach and at the city festivities. Some were not to blame but others I had warned. They were the ones bringing their dog to the beach on a crowded Saturday and walking right through the middle of the beach (almost like they had a point to prove). They always say, well my dog didnt bite anyone or bother anyone (Actualy no dog bit anyone) but people complained and didnt want them around and now they are banned for good.
> 
> People see this on the news,
> 15 most dangerous dogs
> they see a german shepherd or a rottweiler at the crowded parade and the next thing you know the city gets 50 calls demanding that dogs be banned. The city has their hands tied at that point. Because the complaints are logged if a dog were to bite or attack someone and the lawyers got their hands on the fact that there was previous complaints and the city "did nothing" the city will get sued and taken to the cleaners. So the laws are partially in place to protect the city as well, as selfish as that might seem. Like it or not this is the way it is. So despite the fact that you think you are being a breed ambassador by bringing your well behaved dog to crowded parade and ice cream shops you are fueling the breed ban/law fire.


You don't ban dog because some angry misinformed citizens complained. That is NOT a reason to ban ANY breed, let alone ban dogs. If there was no incident then there is no need for a ban.

You still do NOT get the reason of BSL. The city does not have its hand tied, it can make the decision and NOT ban the dogs. Many cities have open hearings where the public can come and plea their case of why the dogs should NOT be banned. BSL DOES NOTHING FOR ANYONE. It does NOT make a city safer. It is a FAILURE. NO, we are NOT adding to BSL fire. The media, misinformation made by the media, rumors and misinformation spread by misinformed people, stupid owners, and ignorant general public that adds to the BSL fire. 

Us GOOD, INFORMED owners HELP bring a good image of our breeds and send a message to the general public that they are NOT bad dogs.


----------



## selzer

sparra said:


> Are you talking about the recent thread on here??? If you are for what it is worth that "some old lady" was in her nineties and broke her hip and is lucky to be alive while her poor ninety something year old husband was being aggressively barked at......show some compassion hey.....I was more upset that the lady broke her hip....but that is just me.... In the "good old days" you are talking about that dog wouldn't have got even a remote second chance....he would have been taken out the back and shot....


If we were the oldies for lunch bunch forum, than perhaps I would have more compassion. The dog did not bite anyone. They euthanized the dog because it might bite and because the old woman decided to climb over the dog and tripped and injured herself -- that is on the person not the dog. If we move our elderly parents in and our dog is a danger to them, we relegate the dog to the basement or the garage when we are not doing things with the dog. We find the dog a new home. If you would kill a dog that might bite, then you better go and kill yours because, guess what, they might. 

If we ban dogs because their might be an incident, then we might as well ban them all because, yes there might be.


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## damaya

Steelhead said:


> I am on the city counsel


Council - should know how to spell it if you are going to serve on it.
Hope your campaign signs didn't say "Vote Steelhead for City Counsel"

Just curious. Are you elected, and if so do you represent a specific ward or district? 
Do councilmen run at large or by the ward or district they are to represent? 
Also if elected what is the length of your term, and is this your first?
Does your local municipality operate under a city manager form of government? 

Thanks in advance.


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## sparra

selzer said:


> If we were the oldies for lunch bunch forum, than perhaps I would have more compassion. The dog did not bite anyone. They euthanized the dog because it might bite and because the old woman decided to climb over the dog and tripped and injured herself -- that is on the person not the dog. If we move our elderly parents in and our dog is a danger to them, we relegate the dog to the basement or the garage when we are not doing things with the dog. We find the dog a new home. If you would kill a dog that might bite, then you better go and kill yours because, guess what, they might.
> 
> If we ban dogs because their might be an incident, then we might as well ban them all because, yes there might be.


I don't have to be on an "oldies for lunch bunch forum" to show compassion to another human being. Just because this is a dog forum doesn't mean we can't show compassion for a lady with a broken hip.
Anyway I am not going back into the arguments made in that thread ....it was discussed there enough but just wanted to point out that to her family she was not just "some old lady".
As for shooting my dogs......ridiculous argument.....


----------



## selzer

sparra said:


> I don't have to be on an "oldies for lunch bunch forum" to show compassion to another human being. Just because this is a dog forum doesn't mean we can't show compassion for a lady with a broken hip.
> Anyway I am not going back into the arguments made in that thread ....it was discussed there enough but just wanted to point out that to her family she was not just "some old lady".
> As for shooting my dogs......ridiculous argument.....


I said kill, not shoot, but shooting is as good a way of killing as another if you know what you are doing. 

The dog owner no longer has a GSD, and is probably not spending his life on here worrying about me saying some old lady tripped over the dog, she is "some old lady" to me. That is not a bad thing. If your 4-year old tripped over your dog, it would "some little kid" to me. Should I have said, "an elderly lady"? Because the age bracket does matter. 

I asked my mother if she would prefer "old" or "elderly" and she said "haggardly." 

I think my mother would prefer me to say "some old hag" if I was referring to her.


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## chelle

selzer said:


> ......*she is "some old lady" to me. That is not a bad thing*. If your 4-year old tripped over your dog, it would "some little kid" to me. *Should I have said, "an elderly lady"?* Because the age bracket does matter.
> 
> I asked my mother if she would prefer "old" or "elderly" and she said "haggardly."
> 
> I think my mother would prefer me to say "some old hag" if I was referring to her.


Not a bad thing, no, I suppose not. Insensitive, yes. I personally find that pretty disrespectful to an elder. 

Myself, I like the word "broad." As in, "that crazy broad." But many find that offensive... Now I will say I'm not any too politically correct, but a 90 year old woman with a broken hip is not funny and to say she is just "some old lady" is just plain rude.


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## DharmasMom

I'm going to weigh in here. I read the thread. Yes, it is old but since people want to rehash it, I will throw my worthless 2 cents out there. 

First, it was the "elderly" woman's fault she fell over the dog. Sorry but as soon as she made the decision to step over a living creature, well, she took a chance. She literally took her life in her hands, heck, if I decide to step over Dharma, I am doing the same thing. I doubt seriously the dog knew "move" as a command so saying over and over and over and over to the dog doesn't mean much to him. He probably only moved because his space felt crowded when she invaded it by trying to step over him. 

She should have called the dog to her and then she would have been able to walk out the door. Hindsight is 20/20 however, I am just pointing out that is was not the dog's fault. 

As for the barking; seriously, EXACTLY how was the dog barking? Was it the "Get a way from me, I will rip your throat out", teeth bared, lunging bark? Or was it the "I'm not sure, I'm watching you" bark? When my uncle moved in with my parents, Dharma barked at my uncle like that for months. It took some time and effort at socialization to him but finally she decided she liked him. Now she LOVES him, is crazy about him. 

Also, someone mentioned about the man's health. Dogs have been known to change drastically like that if cancer is present and they can smell it. Whose to say? 

I doubt seriously that the dog had a brain tumor just based on a bit of barking at one person and since he was only diagnosed by basically a witch doctor waving a bone over his head, I am going to choose to disbelief this was the case. Also, since the poster mentioned magic ear drop cures (or something) for brain tumors that are the best kept secret on the planet and of course chem trails, I will just chalk him up to being a few sandwiches short of a picnic anyway. 

The entire situation was disgusting and sad. As for calling her "old lady", I don't have a problem with that really. 89 years is old. By anyone's standards. "Lady" is certainly polite enough. After all, I could have said "The ancient bat tripped and fell"- now THAT would have been insensitive. 

What is horrible to me, is a dog that has done absolutely nothing overtly aggressive or vicious, no biting, was rescued a few short months ago has now been once again abandoned by his people. This time for the final time and he was killed. No real crime, no trial, just right to execution and it was based on some so called "brain tumor" that was discovered through hocus pocus or telepathy or something. 

Poor, poor boy. May you run free at the bridge. If you don't have a family to meet you in the future, I would be proud to take you across.


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## Mrs.K

> I'm going to weigh in here. I read the thread. Yes, it is old but since people want to rehash it, I will throw my worthless 2 cents out there.


It's an old topic, but they still want to ban Watertowns Dogs from the public, so it's a rather current issue


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## damaya

DharmasMom said:


> I'm going to weigh in here. I read the thread. Yes, it is old but since people want to rehash it, I will throw my worthless 2 cents out there.


If that's your 2 cents somebody owes you some change. In all you posted you made no comment on the original topic. Unless the thread you are talking about reading was the elderly lady tripping thread. In which case it should have been posted in by selzer back on page 14 instead of this one. As it slowly gets hi-jacked.


----------



## DharmasMom

damaya said:


> If that's your 2 cents somebody owes you some change. In all you posted you made no comment on the original topic. Unless the thread you are talking about reading was the elderly lady tripping thread. In which case it should have been posted in by selzer back on page 14 instead of this one. As it slowly gets hi-jacked.



That is because I have made MULTIPLE posts on the original topic and made my views about it quite known. But since you obviously didn't pay attention to that part I will state them again, just for you.

I am completely, totally and overwhelmingly against banning all dogs. It's punishing everyone for the mistake of one. You might as well ban all bikes then next time a kid get seriously hurt on a bike. Or ban cars the next time someone is killed in a car accident. 

Incidents like the dog bite should be between the owner and the person bitten. The town should not be getting involved. Period. 

I have written a whole bunch more but I don't remember or feel like typing it all out right now so feel free to go back and read the thread. But I will say that since this other topic was brought up, I am allowed to reply and threads go off topic all the time but thanks for your concern about my post.


----------



## damaya

DharmasMom said:


> That is because I have made MULTIPLE posts on the original topic and made my views about it quite known. But since you obviously didn't pay attention to that part I will state them again, just for you.
> 
> You're right you did and no I did not take note of your postings throughout. And you really didn't need to state them again just for me.
> 
> I am completely, totally and overwhelmingly against banning all dogs. It's punishing everyone for the mistake of one. You might as well ban all bikes then next time a kid get seriously hurt on a bike. Or ban cars the next time someone is killed in a car accident.
> 
> Dog banning point understood. What about restrictions for dogs. Just as there has been legislation passed that makes helmets manditory for minors or seatbelts in cars. You agree with both of those?
> 
> Incidents like the dog bite should be between the owner and the person bitten. The town should not be getting involved. Period.
> 
> Not if the bite occurs on city owned property. I can tell you at that point the city becomes immediately involved from a legal stand point. Especially in todays uber litigious society. Whether or not there was an event if it happens on city property the city is involved. Period
> It is up to city officials to come to a well thought out decision and not with a knee jerk reaction.
> 
> I have written a whole bunch more but I don't remember or feel like typing it all out right now so feel free to go back and read the thread. But I will say that since this other topic was brought up, I am allowed to reply and threads go off topic all the time but thanks for your concern about my post.
> 
> You certainly have and some of it I did. And yes you certainly are allowed to respond to anything you want. I just wish people would keep in mind that thread hi-jacks are the same as interrupting someone in a real conversation. Seems to happen a lot here. Your welcome for the concern, but in all honesty my concern was less than 2 cents worth.


Happy New Year.


----------



## Dainerra

actually, I don't agree with most mandatory laws, helmets or wearing seat belts.


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## AbbyK9

> actually, I don't agree with most mandatory laws, helmets or wearing seat belts.


I also do not agree that these should be laws. As a society, we have reached a point where people are so stupid, we are forcing laws onto them just to have some common sense. 

It should be a given that people - adults and children - wear their seat belts in the car because ugly things happen to the human body in a collision when there's no seat belt worn. At the same time, it should be common sense to wear a helmet when engaging in a dangerous thing ... like riding a horse, riding a bicycle, skiing, etc. Head injuries are nothing to joke about. 

I don't think they're things that should be legislated. We don't need a seat belt law and a helmet law. People should be intelligent enough to do these things in the first place. But I guess a lot of people aren't or just don't value their lives enough, so we pass laws to "make them". XD


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## RocketDog

I think they should be mandated for children under the age of 16, because you can not rely on adults to keep them safe in that manner, unfortunately. If you haven't figured out the safety issue by 16, well.....


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## Dainerra

exactly, though. It is the responsibility of the adults in their lives


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## RocketDog

My husband has been a paramedic for over 20 years. He has been with his present dept for 15+. To allow young children and babies to die in traffic accidents because their parents were too lazy or stupid to restrain them safely is ridiculous. 

You will still have parents that break the law, but it has been proven that the power to fine people monetarily for not using car seats/seatbelts increases compliance.


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## Dainerra

Excpet there is no stop to it, is there? It started with seatbelts for childrenm. Then the driver had to be belted. Now the front seat passangers. 
Now, there are places where Happy Meals are illegal. Again, on the grounds that their parents aren't protecting them. 
THAT is why I am against any government involvement in peoples personal lives. There is no limit to what future politicians will try to save us from. It is the same thinking that brings about breed bans and other stupid laws. There is no need to save the public from themselves. It can't be done. As you said, people will still disobey the law if they wish. Any loss of innocent lives is a tragedy, but at some point people have to take responsibility for themselves and their children. It is not the government's job and I don't want them to think it should be!

ETA. My SIL thinks letting my kids watch movies that are rated PG13 should be illegal. I believe that as their mother I know best what is appropriate for them


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## RocketDog

Happy meals and movies don't kill in an instant; or cause enough trauma to debilitate someone for life. 

Civilized societies must speak for those members that cannot speak for themselves.


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## Dainerra

But isn't that what the people in Waterton think they are doing? They are moving to protect the children form what could be an instant death or a lifetime of disfigurement. We can't trust that all dog owners are responsible enough to control ttheir dogs, just as we can't awsume that all parents are responsible enough to use seatbelts or helmets for their children.
So I guess they are right! It is our responsibility to protect innocent victims and ban all dogs from public events.


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## selzer

DharmasMom said:


> Incidents like the dog bite should be between the owner and the person bitten. The town should not be getting involved. Period.


This. :thumbup:

Our town hosts the county jail. It is on the courthouse property. The sherriff's department is run out of there as well. This is literally in the middle of town. For years they had a boxer, living there. They let the dog run loose through the unfenced parking lot. Twice the dog barked and carried on at me while I was walking my dogs. What's up with that? It was county property, and the county could have been sued. The county should have been involved in dealing with that as it was their dog. 

The state has a leash law (which they do not enforce unless someone is bitten). And I can see a village, town, city, county enforcing the leash law, especially if there are complaints. Dogs running at large can be a problem, a danger. 

And, I can understand their being restrictions on non-service animals in city-structures. For one thing, when one encounters a dog in a courthouse or title agency, etc, they should feel confident that the dog is a service animal, well trained and groomed. 

And people with service dogs should not have to contend with dogs that are not well trained, healthy, etc, while they are trying to do their job or perform their business. 

But outside, street fairs, parades, festivals, the sidewalks, and other property run with city tax money, by the city, should be open to dogs who are under control of its owners. 

I do not agree with seatbelt laws or helmet laws, but I do agree with child-restraint laws.


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## damaya

The helmet laws I mentioned pertained to minors on bicycles. For adults on motorcycles I believe "let those who ride decide". However, if you take your minor age son or daughter to the ER with a head injury expect a follow up with DHS or similar organization. I have seen it happen. Is it right? My girls always wear their helmets when we ride. Not because I am aware it is required, or I might be fined but because it is the right thing to do. I certainly don't think it is "the man" trying to supress my rights with frivilous mandates. Same thing with Icon and the way I am bringing him up. Not because of any legislation, but because I want a healthy well behaved dog that I can take out in public with me without worry or fear of how he will behave or react to certain situations.

With dogs at a city sponsered event the city can take precations without banning dogs. Banning would be what I referred to as a "knee jerk" reaction. We all know there are good dog owners and bad dog owners just like there are good parents and bad parents, and like it or not a few bad apples can lead to the knee jerk reaction and spoil the whole bunch.

I really don't think I am talking to anyone here as being a bad apple. I just don't see bad dog owners hanging out and participating on this web site. Their dogs are on a chain in the back yard right now and not licking their arm between keystrokes.


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## selzer

I do not know how I feel about minors on bicycles being compelled by law to don a helmet. I never owned a helmet until I was an adult (been a cyclist for 40 years). None of the kids had helmets. Most of us survived. It is true that they can have a head injury. But there are so many injuries kids can have. You cannot dress them up like football players every day.


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## AbbyK9

For what it's worth, Watertown has passed the dog ban as written at its first council meeting of 2012. 

The dog ban will apply to special events - such as the Christmas Parade, Farmer's Market, and the 4th of July Festival in Thompson Park, as well as within 20ft of any public playground and pools. The ban will NOT apply to any sporting events, such as T-ball or soccer games. 

Dogs that are exempt from NYS licensing fees as "Dogs of Service" - Service Dogs, Therapy Dogs, SAR dogs, police K-9's and military working dogs - will be exempt from the ban. (Meaning, my TDI dog can still go to the special events because she is a Therapy Dog.)

Watertown Daily Times | Watertown city council agrees to proceed with dog ban



> City Council members informally agreed Tuesday night to proceed with a law that would ban dogs from public events held on city-owned property.
> After discussing the subject for about 15 minutes, the council agreed to move forward with the ordinance as it was written by City Attorney Robert. J. Slye. A final version of the proposed legislation will be introduced to the council, possibly as soon as later this month.


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## Mrs.K

AbbyK9 said:


> For what it's worth, Watertown has passed the dog ban as written at its first council meeting of 2012.
> 
> The dog ban will apply to special events - such as the Christmas Parade, Farmer's Market, and the 4th of July Festival in Thompson Park, as well as within 20ft of any public playground and pools. The ban will NOT apply to any sporting events, such as T-ball or soccer games.
> 
> Dogs that are exempt from NYS licensing fees as "Dogs of Service" - Service Dogs, Therapy Dogs, SAR dogs, police K-9's and military working dogs - will be exempt from the ban. (Meaning, my TDI dog can still go to the special events because she is a Therapy Dog.)
> 
> Watertown Daily Times | Watertown city council agrees to proceed with dog ban


Guess I got to get a letter from Roger then... or maybe better yet... her ID...heck even I don't have my ID yet because our county is so darn slow with stuff like that!


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