# Off leash dogs are making me crazy



## bkernan

Ok, that was a very dramatic subject. But honestly, It seems on a weekly basis Hudson and I have been confronted by an off leash terror of a dog - given my fervent title I'm sure you can infer that one such encounter JUST HAPPENED. Central park, admiring the leaves, structured heel, passing a woman with two fat dogs and there were some people around - BAM, she apparently didn't have the leash tight enough in her hand (???) and her dog runs at us in the middle of a crowded path, causing Hudson to go on high alert (nothing scary, but his hackles went up) and me to use suggestive footwork (the woman thought I was going to kick her dog). 

Not only is it stressful, it's not good for Hudson at this age and I'm just so frustrated. Like get your dogs under control LADY! Last week a woman had her dog off leash (similarly aged bernese mountain dog, looked a little less than a year old) and I was in work attire (not in the mood for a leash tangle in the park) and had coffee - and he came running towards us, I was angry. She had the gall to say "you could at least have a sense of humor" which literally ignited the flames of mordor in my already fuming rage. Spilled the coffee, run in my tights, insulted by someone essentially ignoring leash laws. 

UGH. I know I signed up for some of this having a dog in NYC, but I don't get it. If the dog can't listen keep it on the leash. Does anyone else deal with this semi-regularly?? Rant over-ish.

Also - here's a picture of Hudson being cute because I couldn't help myself.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

Flames of mordor eh? Hop on over to my thread I swear we are *working* on it LOL! Stuff happens (in our case the leash broke oops!), and crowded areas it happens more often no doubt. Cute pup!!!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sounds like what you are encountering is out of control dogs, leashed or not.


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## bkernan

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Flames of mordor eh? Hop on over to my thread I swear we are *working* on it LOL! Stuff happens (in our case the leash broke oops!), and crowded areas it happens more often no doubt. Cute pup!!!


definitely didn't have anything to do with yours! As you read Hudson had an off leash extravaganza with that prong (ugh!), but like these idiots are either taking their dogs off leash knowing they don't have recall or are too lazy to hold on to the leash. Broken/malfunctioning collar, I completely sympathize!


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## car2ner

bkernan said:


> She had the gall to say "you could at least have a sense of humor" which literally ignited the flames of mordor in my already fuming rage. Spilled the coffee, run in my tights, insulted by someone essentially ignoring leash laws.
> 
> UGH. I know I signed up for some of this having a dog in NYC, but I don't get it. If the dog can't listen keep it on the leash. Does anyone else deal with this semi-regularly?? Rant over-ish.
> 
> Also - here's a picture of Hudson being cute because I couldn't help myself.


Wow, I wish I could have seen that.....from a distance. Just be careful since our dogs mirror our emotions. If we get upset, so will our dog. If we can hold it together our dogs have a better chance of doing the same ...yes, easier said than done. 

The gal who wished you had a sense of humor is probably very embarrassed and she ought to be. And she should have gotten you a fresh cup of coffee.


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## Chip18

Oh my ... well first I want to say sorry that happened! And second well, welcome on board the "loose Dog Express" and we got ... lot's of members! Rocky and I excelled at this crap! And my life time told stands at 16 successful "counters." And my motto is "no dog gets to mine, with intent to do harm, without getting passing me!" My job is to protect my dog and I am good at my job. 

Only one dog got past me and I had to make a few mistakes that enabled that to happen, my bad ... apparently I can't see the dark, who knew??? At any rate, Rocky my GSD just seemed to be a loose dog magnet for some reason??? With my assorted Bully breeds I had three such encounters in ten years. But when Rocky my GSD came on board, the crap hit the fan??? Now it became 13 such encounters with him alone in very rapid fashion??? And it was not him, he did nothing but he just seemed to be a loose dog magnet for some reason??? 

At any rate although there is no doubt, that you were seriously ticked off?? I'd not worry to much about Hudson?? His take away from this episode is that you had his back! No matter how ticked off you may have been, you kept him safe and doing that is the bottom line! 

Dealing with this kinda crap, just seems to be my unexpected "specialty???" And no matter how seriously ticked off, I am and rest assured, I get seriously ticked off at this crap! Nonetheless, my dog's job is to do "nothing" and they are "very good at there jobs!" I can't defend my dog and deal with crap from them at the same time under "loose dog encounters and I don't!

Rocky set my standard for expected behavior under loose dog encounters and first time out the gate after our ... uh issues. This is what happened.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

I'm pretty sure Rocky clearly understood, that Daddy was seriously ticked off??? Nonetheless, he did as was he was to told (Stay) until he saw a "situation" that he had not seen before??? Uh "Daddy down???" Perhaps I should make my presence know n"NOW???" And then he stepped up, and I was stunned??? 

At any rate, this crap happens all the time (loose dog encounters,) and this thread is what others have recommend. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html

Ironically enough, I gave/posted advise there, that I would not heed for a few years?? As I did not need it, until I did! I had to work pretty hard to mess up but you know I managed to do just that! And Rocky got nipped in total darkness by "That Dog!" But that's another story, glad your dog was not hurt and sorry this happened.


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## bkernan

Chip18 said:


> Oh my ... well first I want to say sorry that happened! And second well, welcome on board the "loose Dog Express" and we got ... lot's of members! Rocky and I excelled at this crap! And my life time told stands at 16 successful "counters." And my motto is "no dog gets to mine, with intent to do harm, without getting passing me!" My job is to protect my dog and I am good at my job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only one dog got past me and I had to make a few mistakes that enabled that to happen, my bad ... apparently I can't see the dark, who knew??? At any rate, Rocky my GSD just seemed to be a loose dog magnet for some reason??? With my assorted Bully breeds I had three such encounters in ten years. But when Rocky my GSD came on board, the crap hit the fan??? Now it became 13 such encounters with him alone in very rapid fashion??? And it was not him, he did nothing but he just seemed to be a loose dog magnet for some reason???
> 
> At any rate although there is no doubt, that you were seriously ticked off?? I'd not worry to much about Hudson?? His take away from this episode is that you had his back! No matter how ticked off you may have been, you kept him safe and doing that is the bottom line!
> 
> Dealing with this kinda crap, just seems to be my unexpected "specialty???" And no matter how seriously ticked off, I am and rest assured, I get seriously ticked off at this crap! Nonetheless, my dog's job is to do "nothing" and they are "very good at there jobs!" I can't defend my dog and deal with crap from them at the same time under "loose dog encounters and I don't!
> 
> Rocky set my standard for expected behavior under loose dog encounters and first time out the gate after our ... uh issues. This is what happened.:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html
> 
> I'm pretty sure Rocky clearly understood, that Daddy was seriously ticked off??? Nonetheless, he did as was he was to told (Stay) until he saw a "situation" that he had not seen before??? Uh "Daddy down???" Perhaps I should make my presence know n"NOW???" And then he stepped up, and I was stunned???
> 
> At any rate, this crap happens all the time (loose dog encounters,) and this thread is what others have recommend. :
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html
> 
> Ironically enough, I gave/posted advise there, that I would not heed for a few years?? As I did not need it, until I did! I had to work pretty hard to mess up but you know I managed to do just that! And Rocky got nipped in total darkness by "That Dog!" But that's another story, glad your dog was not hurt and sorry this happened.


Thanks Chip! Yes we did our best i tried not to scream expletives as we walked away but you win some you lose some  it just irks me I guess either when dogs are off leash where they aren?t supposed to be or the owner is letting the leash drag and or not paying attention. That doesn?t need to happen - I?d say 99 percent of the time off leash dogs in nyc have the recall of roadkill. 

And of course in the midst of it all i stepped on his foot - derp. Total idiot of me and I just felt bad our walk ended like that. And when i say this happens all the time, it?s like once a week. Given the state of the world this is the dumbest thing to complain about but it?s shch an easy thing to do. Leash your dog. Pay attention. 

Anyways - yes chip you are totally right I did my job and he?s fine and happy - just sucks worrying about how far he?s come and how one bad encounter where I may not get in the middle fast enough could set him back. Also I?m a crazy dog mom. Thanks for commiserating with me!!!


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## cloudpump

Another reason I'd never live in NYC. I'll stay in 
WNY. Love me some solitude


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## MineAreWorkingline

cloudpump said:


> Another reason I'd never live in NYC. I'll stay in
> WNY. Love me some solitude


I can do with or without the solitude. Here I am at a busy city park with two of my dogs off leash in a leashed area as they encounter a GSD mix for the first time, also unleashed. All of the dogs are under control and being off leash does not seem to be a problem. I am glad I live where I do as this is considered the norm.


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## bkernan

Wouldn?t know an in control off leash dog in nyc if I drove over one. But it goes without saying those that do have dogs with great OB off leash are exempt from my rant. And the nice person who sympathized with me after the debauchery today haha no but seriously I just don?t get why people are so careless here in the city. Super annoying


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## cloudpump

Chip on a dog walk


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## KaiserAus

I have also had to put my foot out to stop a dog from continually attacking my boy... it was a mini french bulldog... the thing was tiny, I was worried that if I lost my balance and stepped on the thing I would kill it... but it had a serious attitude problem. 

It came up to us and Kaiser bent down to sniff it... it kept jumping back and forwards and Kaiser was unsure of this dog, then this little thing barked at Kaiser so he barked back, one bark, thats all it was, and the frenchie ran off yelping like Kaiser had bitten him. I was furious, but decided to ignore it and carry on walking.

Doesn't this stupid little dog, start following, barking and nipping at Kaiser. I put my foot out and gently pushed it back, like I say, it was tiny, I really didn't want to hurt it. After about 1 minute, the owner showed up and said "oh I suppose I should put him on the leash" so I said "yeah, seems he has small dog syndrome" 

We have been rudely attacked by so many small dogs it is ridiculous! The big dogs are all fine.


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## MineAreWorkingline

KaiserAus said:


> I have also had to put my foot out to stop a dog from continually attacking my boy... it was a mini french bulldog... the thing was tiny, I was worried that if I lost my balance and stepped on the thing I would kill it... but it had a serious attitude problem.
> 
> It came up to us and Kaiser bent down to sniff it... it kept jumping back and forwards and Kaiser was unsure of this dog, then this little thing barked at Kaiser so he barked back, one bark, thats all it was, and the frenchie ran off yelping like Kaiser had bitten him. I was furious, but decided to ignore it and carry on walking.
> 
> Doesn't this stupid little dog, start following, barking and nipping at Kaiser. I put my foot out and gently pushed it back, like I say, it was tiny, I really didn't want to hurt it. After about 1 minute, the owner showed up and said "oh I suppose I should put him on the leash" so I said "yeah, seems he has small dog syndrome"
> 
> We have been rudely attacked by so many small dogs it is ridiculous! The big dogs are all fine.


That's not funny but the way you tell it is. I had to laugh.


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## Jenny720

When we go for walks I think encounter more dogs that charge us in the past few months and none When at a public beach or people park. I have to just keep walking. It takes awhile to figure out what works. I have done the gandolph method. I have to remember though as what car2nwr says that they do mirror you and max could be ready for a war in a half a second so Is when my ques are the most important so I have to rember to stay calm and keep going depending on the situation. One neighbors dog charged at us a few times - it is the first time I have gotten pissed off I have not seen the dog out since. The first time the same dog charged over while a family member was walking max - I was way up ahead with Luna and max could care less. I found that interesting since max does not like other dogs they actually smelled each other. When I?m on a time crunch I walk max and Luna together in the neighborhood but one sudden slight pull with the two of them probably put my back out so trying not to do that. Yes little dog syndrome is a thing we had another dog coming running us a little guy I told the owners u should get ur dog as she just stood in her door way and watched. She said she could not because the dog bites her when she picks him up. I just kept walking the dog followed but at a distance.


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## Coleen

I've had 2 encounters with no leash small dog, both with same dog that lives down the street from me. Tasha is good in all aspects except when it comes to dogs that are barking at her or coming towards her. She wants to play. We are working on this but these off leash dogs doesn't help.

First encounter- I'm walking back home and this guy with his off leash, no recall poodle like dog is out front. I was able to see the dog before approaching and started preparing to walk Tasha past the dog. He sees me and says, don't worry my dog is friendly! :surprise: okay....I replied with what makes you think my dog is? ( she is. Mind you tho, my dog is bigger then me!) He grabs his dog and all is well. I also mentioned in passing that he should have his dog on leash and yes, Tasha is friendly. 

Second encounter - Again walking back home only this time I couldn't see the dog or owner till it was to late. His dog runs up to Tasha and they start sniffing and trying to play. I pull up on Tasha's collar and tell her no and proceed to keep walking. This dog keeps following and trying to make contact which keeps Tasha trying to turn around and play back! I yelled to the guy to get his dog! He just kept on trying to recall his dog which wasn't working. I told him again to get his dog! He was hesitant probably because he was scared of Tasha. To bad, a leash would of prevented this. I'm trying to keep Tasha from playing myself, I very well can't try to get his dog for him at the same time. He finally grabs his dog and I just mouthed the word "leash". He never had his dog out front again.


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## car2ner

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's not funny but the way you tell it is. I had to laugh.


reminds me of the time a youngster was told to walk their little Chihuahua before going to school. He opened the door and let the little guy out. Then this tiny old man of a dog ran right up to the front of my big boy, and dropped a pile of poo. :surprise: The kid just stood there half a block away, had no idea what to do. My dog just stood there confused and curious. I told the kid it would be wise to come get his dog. When the youngster picked the little critter up, it started barking "SEE, MY BOY AND I OWN THIS TOWN". Of course my dog barked back. 

I laugh now but that day all I could do is shake my head. 


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## Levi T

car2ner said:


> reminds me of the time a youngster was told to walk their little Chihuahua before going to school. He opened the door and let the little guy out. Then this tiny old man of a dog ran right up to the front of my big boy, and dropped a pile of poo. :surprise: The kid just stood there half a block away, had no idea what to do. My dog just stood there confused and curious. I told the kid it would be wise to come get his dog. When the youngster picked the little critter up, it started barking "SEE, MY BOY AND I OWN THIS TOWN". Of course my dog barked back.
> 
> I laugh now but that day all I could do is shake my head. 


Man I wish I could have seen that! hahaha


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## Jenny720

car2ner said:


> MineAreWorkingline said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not funny but the way you tell it is. I had to laugh.
> 
> 
> 
> reminds me of the time a youngster was told to walk their little Chihuahua before going to school. He opened the door and let the little guy out. Then this tiny old man of a dog ran right up to the front of my big boy, and dropped a pile of poo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The kid just stood there half a block away, had no idea what to do. My dog just stood there confused and curious. I told the kid it would be wise to come get his dog. When the youngster picked the little critter up, it started barking "SEE, MY BOY AND I OWN THIS TOWN". Of course my dog barked back.
> 
> I laugh now but that day all I could do is shake my head. 
Click to expand...

Sounds just like a chihuahua lol!


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## bkernan

Ok - these stories are making me feel better - glad I'm not the only one who is dealing with this stuff but sorry for it happening to all of you as well - it really does put a damper on a nice walk. I'm also an idiot for not thinking about how my reaction might send Hudson into a different mindset - truly having this dog has been more about training myself to control/manage my emotions and reactions, it's amazing. 

And no off leash fiascos yet today, but hey - it's only noon!


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## Chip18

Every "loose dog encounter" is going to be different?? Where I live, I see very few well trained dogs on leash?? Aside from Rocky there was a Chi and a Border Collie that walked off leash and if we did happen to cross paths?? One of us will cross the street and we greet each other with a streets worth of distance. You keep your distance and we'll keep ours "Thank You," works out fine. 

I can't say I have much experience, with loose dogs "attempting" to approach mine in a calm friendly manner??? I tend to encounter "ambush predators" ie door bolters and dogs coming out of the dark, hard and fast??? I don't have time to video such encounters??? I have tenths of seconds to persuade "Ambush Predator's "to" make better choices! 

And fortunately for my dogs and dogs under my care, I don't buy into the "you gotta be calm or the dog will feed of your energy uh crap???" If a loose dog charges mine, I'm not in a "Puppies and Kittens for everybody kinda mood???" I tell my dog "Stay" and I step in front and I deal with the interloper! I've been dealing with the loose dog "crap" since I got my first Band Dawg in 2000. And my record of success, stands at 17 and 1! And the one fail on my part was because I screwed up and came across "that dog" under circumstances that favored the dog, my bad! 

"She" (as I would learn later) got in a quick nip on Rocky and at that point decided that perhaps I could now see her??? So it's best to get out of Dodge "now!" Freaking ticked me off! But after that one fail, I followed my own advise, which is in a clip in that link I posted years ago, but I did not need it??? Aww, well live and learn, I messed up once ... but it won't happen again! 

Round one my only screw up is here.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/687457-argggg-dog-attack.html

And Round Two ... following my own advise and getting it right is here.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...513-argggg-dog-attack-yet-again-but-time.html

No dogs harmed, no contact made, so you know nothing to apologize for. But a clear message was sent, don't screw with us dog, and uh no ... I did not have "time" to do a Youtube clip, nuff said.


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## Jenny720

Ambush predators yes lol!I think you have to use your judgment at the moment. I had used both being calm and just walking or blocking(gandolf method). All have not been largely practiced but used and worked. hOwners presence non presence dogs are much more brazen when their owners are in the area. One time I dropped the leash it was just something instinctual not a busy street and at a dead end not the smartest thing I have done. Not recommending it just saying every situation is different and can be handled differently. Luna does not like charging dogs- Max does not like other dogs he is zoned in on me in a heartbeat- my emotions mAtter. so my response and actions are important. I keep them away regardless whatever way I use at the time as long as their is no altercation all is good.

There was a light I mentioned I think I will try it but this has happened during daylight hours.


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## tim_s_adams

The way I see it unleashed out-of-control dogs are inevitable (at least in most cities I've been to), so I like to think of these encounters as training opportunities. I mean, you can choose to be mad every time there's a full moon, but it won't keep it from happening...

I choose to learn from each encounter, and for my dog to learn as well...that being said, I did buy one of those strobe-light flashlights that were mentioned before >, but like you, my encounters usually happen during broad daylight.


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## Chip18

tim_s_adams said:


> The way I see it unleashed out-of-control dogs are inevitable (at least in most cities I've been to), so I like to think of these encounters as training opportunities. I mean, you can choose to be mad every time there's a full moon, but it won't keep it from happening...
> 
> I choose to learn from each encounter, and for my dog to learn as well...that being said, I did buy one of those strobe-light flashlights that were mentioned before >, but like you, my encounters usually happen during broad daylight.


Yes ... most likely in the real world such encounters are inevitable??? But I dare say ... that no one tells new puppy owners that??? 

So it's up to us and those that find us to fill that gap! My very first encounter with my first Boxer/APBT "puppy" was on a walk and we were three houses away from home. Stewie was on leash, were had almost pasted that home when I heard a door slam open and people screaming??? I turned around and saw a 80 lb (Breed that shall not be mentioned) bearing down hard on my puppy???!! I don't freaking thing so!!!! I spun Stewie around on leash and I faced down that dog!! He was not expecting a human and he paused??? That gave the owner time to scoop the dog up! And Stewie well even though he went "instantly" from left to right he sat by foot, no big deal this is what Dad does. And as it happens "Stewie" was the only Dad that actually Sat unbidden while this episode transpired, I luv APBT/Boxer mixes pretty freaking unflappable dogs but that's another story. 

In my experience, most loose dogs don't even see you??? All they see is your dog?? If you get in there face it tends to give them pause??? But you know what has to make choices?? If you do get in front of your dog then you become target! Frankly I don't give a crap "bring it on is how I roll!" But as I am want to say, "Crap happens???" And with my first "Rocky" two charging dogs episodes?? I was not expecting to go down???

But Rocky, unbid stepped up to the plate??? He'd not seen this before (Daddy Down???) Prior to me going down, he was pretty bored with the whole episode??? But when he saw "Daddy Down??" Well I have not seen this before, and perhaps I had make presence know "NOW!" I was freaking stunned??? 

I had no idea he gave a crap about me??? He had ticked me off because of how he treated my Gunther (the pack fights.) I was protecting him because that is what I do with my dogs. There is nothing to think about for me! No dog get's to mine with intent to do harm without getting past me, nothing to think about?? But slipping on ice while protecting them?? Yeah that was not part of my plan??? But Rocky, came out of nowhere and only my continued grip on the leash kept that last charging dog from harm!! That last freaking dog just flat disappeared, when Rocky stepped up??? Everyone was as stunned as I was??? 

That freaking tool of an owner got off lucky! Because, that slip on the ice freaking hurt!! But my dog was not harmed and that was all I cared about so that owner, got off with a terse "train your freaking dogs" and we were on our way! 

And aside from "Walking him" and keeping people out of his face as part of my "Bubble Dog" protocal, I did nothing special?? Dad stops I wait nothing is suppose to happen but Dad on his back and a dog charging?? Well I've not seen that before???

The odd thing is, with my American Band and my Boxer both of whom were much smaller than Rocky, I never had a problem?? But with Rocky at 116 lbs, who was actually great around other dogs and had zero reaction to them??? Every loose dog in the neighborhood wanted to take a shot at him??? I have no idea what that was about??? GSD's just seem to be loose dog magnets for reason it would seem???


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## Bentwings1

I too am tired of " my dog is friendly.." I'm not friendly at all to loose dogs. 20 foot retractable leash does not mean your dog is under control. I know of a couple ladies who got very nasty burns when their " friendly " dog wrapped the thin rope around bare legs. 
7-0 this year alone. I carry pepper spray, stun stick and offer brute force. 
The first line is to try and scare the offender away, loud shout. Then the gloves are off. What ever it takes to run the offender off.

I spend a lot of time and money training my dog. She goes with me to work, behaves on walks and in the dog friendly stores we go to.

Our appartment is a disaster area for dogs. In seven years I'm the only one who trains their dog. I even offered to help people but I got no response at all. With that I don't care, I take care of my dog and myself. I don't need " friends" here. People are the most inconsiderate I've ever seen.


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## JonRob

Oh man, I used to live in NYC many years ago and I have never forgotten what a pain in the rear the uncontrolled loose/Flexi-Leash dog problem was. FWIW here's what I did.

Best thing ever is a citronella spray called Spray Shield. It does not hurt the dog even if you spray it in his eyes. I know this because I accidentally sprayed myself in the eyes with it--didn't pay attention to the nozzle direction, duh. Aim for the dog's face right between the eyes. Something about making a big stink makes the dog go away in a hurry. I have even used it to bust up dog fights. It doesn't work on every dog but it worked on the 20 or so dogs I had to use it on.

Carry a big shepherd's crook. If anyone asks, it's just a walking stick. Something about suddenly sprouting a huge long arm will startle a lot of dogs. Also you can hook the dog's legs with the hook end which can also scare them off.

Carry a very strong thin nylon slip lead that is arranged so you can slide one end through the ring, so you don't have to slide it over the other dog's head. This is for the worst-case deal where another dog has got hold of yours and your only choice is to choke him off.

The flashlight thing is interesting. Didn't have the brains to think of it back then. A tactical (extremely bright) flashlight might work even in the day but my guess is it would work better on human predators than dogs because dogs rely so much on their sense of smell. But definitely worth carrying to deter the human thugs.


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## Chip18

Bentwings1 said:


> I too am tired of " my dog is friendly.." I'm not friendly at all to loose dogs. 20 foot retractable leash does not mean your dog is under control. I know of a couple ladies who got very nasty burns when their " friendly " dog wrapped the thin rope around bare legs.
> 7-0 this year alone. I carry pepper spray, stun stick and offer brute force.


Aww, rest assured you'll get no grief from me about "attitude!" No one here would have had a problem with my (Pack) which at its, height would have been my American Band Dawg, my GSD (Rocky) and my Boxer (Struddell) if we saw you first and most likely we would. We would cross the street and if that were not an option ... we would back well off and then I'd down my Pack ie all would go in a "Down/Stay" and I'd take point, until the coast was clear. But with only one dog I had no need for "Down." 

I have no interest in holding my ground. I will gladly give ground to a another dog and owner. But ... brute force and a willingness to take a hit only go so far???After my crap going wrong situation, I made some changes, step one was uh carry a flashlight at night (you freaking tool!!) and carry a "Walking Stick!" 

When the crap went down yet again (three weeks later) and Rocky and I had our Lab, gone wrong encounter?? That time (Rocky) was off leash and he had spotted the trouble before I did??? And he was ready to Rock and Roll! Daddy screwed up once, and this time "I'm ready!!" It was bad, I was slightly to far in front of him to shield him and time and distance to react were pretty much gone!! But the Walking Stick ... which was already at hand, was deployed at the last second to block that dog!!! And the look on that dog's face was "Priceless!!" And I slammed that stick down so hard and fast I feared it would shatter?? But despite the loud "Thwack" it help up fine. 


And that dog hit the freaking brakes hard!! Problem solved, no dogs were injured, no humans involved, ie tempers flaring or LE involvement to put me off some clueless tool! There was "nothing" to apologize for! The most words exchanged were "Sorry" from the dogs owner and "No Problem" from me. And we were on our way ... no big deal. 

Pepper spray, air horn or a stun gun, yeah those could, all work?? But if it's an owner present situation, it's gonna be some words exchanges, perhaps maybe ... I'm sorry I had to neutralize your untrained tool of a dog, my bad??? That's more crap than I care to say??? A Walking Stick, is always at hand nothing to fumble around for??? You can't do better than that, in my opinion. 

I don't freaking play when it comes to protecting my dogs! The force of will, thing takes a bit of moxie and the willingness to take a hit if crap goes wrong??? But a "Walking Stick" properly utilized to block a dog "anyone can do that." 





Bentwings1 said:


> The first line is to try and scare the offender away, loud shout. Then the gloves are off. Whatever it takes to run the offender off.


Yep pretty much from day one, puppy number two (first encounter) that's how I rolled! And it worked out fine for years ... until it didn't. Apparently, not being able to see at night puts one at a disadvantage, who knew??  

Rocky could see her but I could not??? And evidently the she understood that I could not see her??? She brushed past my left thigh to get to him??? When Rocky yelped, she figured "good enough, my cover is blown and I'm outta here!"

Rocky maintained disciple cus you know "Daddy's got this???" That time he was on leash, in theory, I could have released him, but then I'd have no idea where he was either??? You have no chance of seeing a Black dog in ink black darkness??? 

Oh well live and learn, Marilyn's constant harping about carrying a flashlight on midnight walks, now made sense??? All our other encounters just happened to occur during daylight hours or under one of our widely spaced streetlights?? 




Bentwings1 said:


> I spend a lot of time and money training my dog. She goes with me to work, behaves on walks and in the dog friendly stores we go to.
> 
> Our apartment is a disaster area for dogs. In seven years I'm the only one who trains their dog. I even offered to help people but I got no response at all. With that I don't care, I take care of my dog and myself. I don't need " friends" here. People are the most inconsiderate I've ever seen.


Aww I'm sorry that sounds like a pretty crappy situation?? We did not get our first dog until we bought our first home. 

And yeah I've offered to help others also??? A couple of very sad cases, come to mind, but the the owners have already tried "Trainers" and well that did not work out?? So you know what's so "special" about your offer of help.


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## Chip18

Jenny720 said:


> Ambush predators yes lol!I think you have to use your judgment at the moment. I had used both being calm and just walking or blocking(gandolf method). All have not been largely practiced but used and worked. hOwners presence non presence dogs are much more brazen when their owners are in the area. One time I dropped the leash it was just something instinctual not a busy street and at a dead end not the smartest thing I have done. Not recommending it just saying every situation is different and can be handled differently. Luna does not like charging dogs- Max does not like other dogs he is zoned in on me in a heartbeat- my emotions mAtter. so my response and actions are important. I keep them away regardless whatever way I use at the time as long as their is no altercation all is good.
> 
> There was a light I mentioned I think I will try it but this has happened during daylight hours.


Aww well if people want to stick to the your "emotions matter" thing ... go for it. That is simply not my experience?? 

Most likely it would not explain LE and there "Hands UP" or I will release the dog bit either?? I'm pretty sure those dogs are "straining at the end of the leash" but they still don't move until told to do so?? But I don't know as that's not my thing??? 

But what I do know, is that "Dog's" do as they've been trained. And "Stay" means freaking "Stay!" And you pretty much can't get more "distracting" than having an out of control dog charging at your dog while you deal with it??? But hey my dogs that I raised and trained so of course ... they would do as they were told and trained??? But ... that does not explain the exact same behaviour under pressure, I got from a dog, I did not train but that I "suspected" he would do???"

And that dog would be Val my clients former E-Collar trained dog a Westie. On an off leash walk with him, we got charged by a loose dog??? I instantly told Val to "Stay" and I stepped in front of him! I actually had no idea if Val would actually comply but I "felt" he would and I was right! I wrangled up the yard escapee and got him secured! And the whole time, Val remained right where he was! Me being ticked off at the situation, made "Zero" difference to Val!

No leash, and not my dog but he still did as he had been trained to do, and Stay means Stay! Pretty much that simple, so if you dropped the leash and it made no difference in what your dog did during that encounter, then you've done well!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Odd that some people complaining about off leash dogs are just as guilty walking their own dogs off leash. I don't get it.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Odd that some people complaining about off leash dogs are just as guilty walking their own dogs off leash. I don't get it.


Don't get or willful ignorance??? Speaking for the truly ticked off (if I may be so bold) we don't really give a crap how other owners chose to walk there dogs?? Flexi, leash, Halti or no leash as long as the owners have "Control of their dogs" those dogs are "not" our problem??

Dogs that are under control are "NOT" our issue. And I don't play favorites ... rest assure that if one of my off leash dogs "lost it???" LOL as if that's gonna happen! Then my dog would have to get "past me first" to harm another dog!! And yessss, "Fighting Breeds" as you like to say are my thing. But I don't play favorites! My dogs don't cause harm to others and I "expect" the same from the owners of other people dog's! "Control your freaking dog" and you will get a friendly nod of "Respect" from me ... from across the street! 

"I don't know you, I don't know your dog?? You keep your distance, I'll keep mine," is how "we roll." Others are of course free to do as they see fit. I don't need no stinking leash myself, for my dogs?? If/when, I chose to use one?? It is to make other people "comfortable" but whatever. 

,


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## car2ner

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Odd that some people complaining about off leash dogs are just as guilty walking their own dogs off leash. I don't get it.


it is the same as the "Not My Kid" syndrome. The be honest, there was a beach that we let our dogs loose on, or let drag a long line. But each time we saw another dog coming our way, we put our dog on leash. Most people did, but alas, not all. We even passed a vacationer who didn't even bother to bring a leash.... sigh.


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## tim_s_adams

Not to go too far off topic, but you know what bothers me even more?

I met one of the most beautiful ddr coaties today that I have ever seen. Typically masculine and serious...but just incredibly beautiful! Then I watched the owner give the dog conflicting commands, and when it didn't respond "correctly" she walked over and kicked it in the head!

To me, that's much much worse than negligence, I literally wanted to step in, but....


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Don't get or willful ignorance??? Speaking for the truly ticked off (if I may be so bold) we don't really give a crap how other owners chose to walk there dogs?? Flexi, leash, Halti or no leash as long as the owners have "Control of their dogs" those dogs are "not" our problem??
> 
> Dogs that are under control are "NOT" our issue. And I don't play favorites ... rest assure that if one of my off leash dogs "lost it???" LOL as if that's gonna happen! Then my dog would have to get "past me first" to harm another dog!! And yessss, "Fighting Breeds" as you like to say are my thing. But I don't play favorites! My dogs don't cause harm to others and I "expect" the same from the owners of other people dog's! "Control your freaking dog" and you will get a friendly nod of "Respect" from me ... from across the street!
> 
> "I don't know you, I don't know your dog?? You keep your distance, I'll keep mine," is how "we roll." Others are of course free to do as they see fit. I don't need no stinking leash myself, for my dogs?? If/when, I chose to use one?? It is to make other people "comfortable" but whatever.
> 
> ,


It is just too confusing and hard to follow the thread when some people are talking about out of control dogs and others are talking about off leash dogs as if they were the same. A dog can be leashed and yet be out of control. Just because a dog is not leashed does not mean it is out of control. Frankly, I find it insulting to insinuate or declare that an off leash dog is an out of control dog.


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## Apex1

Goal~walk my dog off leash under control 
I got high hopes


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## car2ner

tim_s_adams said:


> Not to go too far off topic, but you know what bothers me even more?
> 
> I met one of the most beautiful ddr coaties today that I have ever seen. Typically masculine and serious...but just incredibly beautiful! Then I watched the owner give the dog conflicting commands, and when it didn't respond "correctly" she walked over and kicked it in the head!
> 
> To me, that's much much worse than negligence, I literally wanted to step in, but....



I might have stepped in if I didn't have my own dog with me. It is tough to watch a being suffer due to another person's ignorance. But that could be the topic for another thread.


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## Kyrielle

Well, I walk my dog off leash on hiking trails, so if I see someone else with their dog off leash, I just shrug and let the two meet. If it goes awry, it goes awry and I'll deal with it then. Haven't had any problems yet, so I guess that approach works.

I mean, I can't sit here and complain about people with dogs off leash if I do so too. I tend to have much bigger problems with dogs on the leash. They always seem more grumpy and wound up.


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## islanddog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is just too confusing and hard to follow the thread when some people are talking about out of control dogs and others are talking about off leash dogs as if they were the same. A dog can be leashed and yet be out of control. Just because a dog is not leashed does not mean it is out of control. Frankly, I find it insulting to insinuate or declare that an off leash dog is an out of control dog.



I just assume that when people complain about "off-leash" dogs they mean "out of control dog". I use the same short cut. If I curse "off-lead" dogs, I'm referring to those running at large on the street or those that are launching themselves at a 100 mph towards my leashed dog. I also assume they are not referring to my dog when he's off-lead but minding his own business, or chasing a frisbee in an empty park or politely greeting another off-lead dog with four-way approval (both owners, both dogs).

Just read down, so yep. I'm one of those who complains about off-lead dogs and I do let my dog off lead under control (or leash him up if necessary to maintain control--it depends). I do think a leashed dog should be an automatic keep away signal for owners letting their dogs run. I learned this as a child, I have more grey hairs than brown now.

Local trails rules are. Under control or on lead. Unfortunately, most interpret it to mean, off leash zero control too bad so sad take your dog & go home and don't come back if you don't like it.


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## Jenny720

Yes this thread is clearly about off leash untrained dogs with their owners who don?t have any control and sometimes just like to watch and see what happens.


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## Jenny720

Aww well chip emotions matter to me chip in some situations. Law enforcement dogs sure know when they are ready to work even though they don?t act on it until told but I would think some are prepAred by subtle cues by their handler -depending on the dog. I would think. 

Yeah I have had my two dogs at a stay and even stopped that same dog that charges us from their yard in that dogs tracks. the owner still seemed to have great difficulty getting his dog. Not to braggg but why not- I am not a boaster. We are not perfect though. I did get a big thumbs up from a passer by witnesss while this the whole thing was going on. Asked me if I was okay and needed any assistance as the guy still ran around chasing his dog. 

The time I dropped the leash in my previous post above I did not want max to stay and did not tell him to do so. sometimes it just is not fair- and this is my opinion. I let the leash go and max chased the dog back in his yard and I called max and he came right back when I called him. That was it. Did it work yes would I want to do that again no. Did know max would come to me when I called him over in mid run -yes. Did I know max would not eat the dog -yes. Did know the dog would most likely about face and run -yes. Was in max in danger of getting hit by a car- no. Did the man still scrabble for amount 5 minutes or more to chase his dog around- yes. Did we calmly continue are walk- yes, as the owner still tried to get his dog and chase it around the yard to prevent it from going near us. First time I saw him put some real muscle into it. I had Luna she just started going into season. It was raining out so we went for a quick walk so she can get out a bit. I did not want the dog near us. 

At one point I would imagine my dogs would sure have wanted to charge anyone walking their dog that walked by our property if given a chance. This why it was so important my dogs came to me when called. If there was ever an accidental opportunity.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is just too confusing and hard to follow the thread when some people are talking about out of control dogs and others are talking about off leash dogs as if they were the same. A dog can be leashed and yet be out of control. Just because a dog is not leashed does not mean it is out of control. Frankly, I find it insulting to insinuate or declare that an off leash dog is an out of control dog.


Tomayto, Tomahto??? No leash on a dog does tend to "automatically equate" to another owner "hmm I may have an issue here???"

And in most "loose dog encounters" it does. There is no "confusion" among those of us who on a fairly routine basis have to deal with other people's problem dogs?? People just want to know what other members do to effectively "neutralize" a potential threat to their dog. Speaking for myself, if I am not in a Vet Office, I don't expect any dog I do know to get within 5 feet of my dog! I give the same consideration to other owners dog's leashed or not. And if I can't maintain that distance, then my dogs will be behind me and we wait till that other dog has gone past us. 

In any case a "leash" is a visible means of some semblance of control?? A leash is not always about us?? It also makes other owners feel more "comfortable." I saw that on a "off leash/loose" dog walk with Rocky on one occasion. It was a well trained Chi, walking off leash, Rocky and I were on the same sidewalk. I saw them approaching us in the opposite direction and off course we crossed the street and continued onward, no big deal nothing to think about?? 

But as we met in the middle on opposite sides of the street, I observed the Chi owner stop reach down and scoop her dog??? Rocky had not given any indication that he had even seen the dog?? Other dogs regardless of size are not his concern but "something just happened here??" My first thought was "whatever" and we start to move on and then I realized ... what had just happened! We stopped and I addressed the other owner from across the street and "Apologized" for having caused her "apprehension???" 

Her dog weighed 8 lbs and Rocky weighted 116 and all she saw was a large* loose dog* approaching with no visible means of control??? 
I could have stopped and put Rocky in a down or attached the leash until we passed but I had no "need" to do so with him?? But the owner did not know that?? So I said "sorry" I did not mean to upset you but you'd get no problem from my guy. 

Sometimes the leash is not all about our "God Given Right" to do whatever we want with our dogs?? Sometimes the leash is about making other dog owners feel more "comfortable."

Loose, out of control dogs, charging our dogs with intent to do harm, is what ticks us off, so you know don't get it twisted.


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## Steve Strom

Apex1 said:


> Goal~walk my dog off leash under control
> I got high hopes


What you'll probably find Apex, if you've been consistent with all your obedience and have a good relationship with him, enough so that he wants to do things with you, he won't wander off much more then 6' longer then the line you've walked him on without you encouraging him to go. The routine you've created with the line almost always carries over if you've taught him, not just restrained him.


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## MineAreWorkingline

islanddog said:


> I just assume that when people complain about "off-leash" dogs they mean "out of control dog". I use the same short cut. If I curse "off-lead" dogs, I'm referring to those running at large on the street or those that are launching themselves at a 100 mph towards my leashed dog. I also assume they are not referring to my dog when he's off-lead but minding his own business, or chasing a frisbee in an empty park or politely greeting another off-lead dog with four-way approval (both owners, both dogs).
> 
> Just read down, so yep. I'm one of those who complains about off-lead dogs and I do let my dog off lead under control (or leash him up if necessary to maintain control--it depends). I do think a leashed dog should be an automatic keep away signal for owners letting their dogs run. I learned this as a child, I have more grey hairs than brown now.
> 
> Local trails rules are. Under control or on lead. Unfortunately, most interpret it to mean, off leash zero control too bad so sad take your dog & go home and don't come back if you don't like it.


I don't assume it because I have had too many altercations with either non dog people, people with dog reactive dogs or people who choose not to let their dogs interact with other dogs when walking my well behaved dogs off leash, calmly at heel or with them running loose and minding their own business like in the video I posted earlier.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Tomayto, Tomahto??? No leash on a dog does tend to "automatically equate" to another owner "hmm I may have an issue here???"
> 
> And in most "loose dog encounters" it does. There is no "confusion" among those of us who on a fairly routine basis have to deal with other people's problem dogs?? People just want to know what other members do to effectively "neutralize" a potential threat to their dog. Speaking for myself, if I am not in a Vet Office, I don't expect any dog I do know to get within 5 feet of my dog! I give the same consideration to other owners dog's leashed or not. And if I can't maintain that distance, then my dogs will be behind me and we wait till that other dog has gone past us.
> 
> In any case a "leash" is a visible means of some semblance of control?? A leash is not always about us?? It also makes other owners feel more "comfortable." I saw that on a "off leash/loose" dog walk with Rocky on one occasion. It was a well trained Chi, walking off leash, Rocky and I were on the same sidewalk. I saw them approaching us in the opposite direction and off course we crossed the street and continued onward, no big deal nothing to think about??
> 
> But as we met in the middle on opposite sides of the street, I observed the Chi owner stop reach down and scoop her dog??? Rocky had not given any indication that he had even seen the dog?? Other dogs regardless of size are not his concern but "something just happened here??" My first thought was "whatever" and we start to move on and then I realized ... what had just happened! We stopped and I addressed the other owner from across the street and "Apologized" for having caused her "apprehension???"
> 
> Her dog weighed 8 lbs and Rocky weighted 116 and all she saw was a large* loose dog* approaching with no visible means of control???
> I could have stopped and put Rocky in a down or attached the leash until we passed but I had no "need" to do so with him?? But the owner did not know that?? So I said "sorry" I did not mean to upset you but you'd get no problem from my guy.
> 
> Sometimes the leash is not all about our "God Given Right" to do whatever we want with our dogs?? Sometimes the leash is about making other dog owners feel more "comfortable."
> 
> Loose, out of control dogs, charging our dogs with intent to do harm, is what ticks us off, so you know don't get it twisted.


Where I live, the experience is different. Most people have well behaved dogs that are given plenty of off leash time. It is usually the leashed dog or the owner of the leashed dog that is the problem, more often the latter.

There absolutely is confusion on the part of some who frequently encounter loose dogs. Somebody's experience could rely on where they live, their dog or the dog owner their self. Assuming an off leash dog is a problem dog does not make it so and if you think about it, the opposite is more likely the scenario or the owner of the dog would most likely have it leashed.

You don't want a dog within five feet of your dog? Your prerogative but a leash will not guarantee anything, especially with so many people using flexis, refusing to train, or having more dog than they can physically handle.

I guess a leash can be a "sign" of control, but where I live, it is automatically considered a sign of a lack of control.


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## tim_s_adams

Do people generally complain about well-mannered dogs whether on or off leash?


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## Steve Strom

tim_s_adams said:


> Do people generally complain about well-mannered dogs whether on or off leash?


I might. It depends. My general line is contact. If they don't make contact, I can control my dog. But if I'm doing something and someone just lets their dog wander up and do whatever, then maybe it comes down to the lack of manners on the owner, not the dog. A little bit of give me some space. I don't really have one set answer or any rigid plan. I've done everything from ignoring them completely to grabbing their dog and making them leash up.


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## Cassidy's Mom

tim_s_adams said:


> Do people generally complain about well-mannered dogs whether on or off leash?


I agree with Steve - it depends. I walk at a nearby regional park that has dirt trails that are off leash under voice control (a lot of those dogs really aren't under control, of any kind), and paved paths that are on leash only. Occasionally there on off leash dogs on the paved path, but as long as they stay on their side and ignore my dogs I'm not going to make a big deal about it. 

One evening there was a guy riding his bike with two off leash Aussies. The dogs stayed right with his bike and couldn't have cared less about my dog, so I didn't say anything. But there have been clueless idiots who get all pissy when I say something about their cute little fluffy dog that's off leash and wandering all over, including up to other people's dogs, when they're supposed to be on leash. 

And I've bitched out people with off leash dogs that get in Halo's face while we were walking on leash. I don't care if it's in an area where dogs are allowed off leash, if you can't call it off it's not under voice control, and I don't care if it's friendly. If it crawls up her butt she's going to snark at it and I'd rather she not practice bad behavior. 

But a lot of people use flexis on the paved path, so while technically the dog is "on leash", it's still being an annoyance to other people and dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> Do people generally complain about well-mannered dogs whether on or off leash?


Absolutely! The dog doesn't have to be near them or even look at them or their dog if they have one with them.


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## bkernan

JonRob said:


> Oh man, I used to live in NYC many years ago and I have never forgotten what a pain in the rear the uncontrolled loose/Flexi-Leash dog problem was. FWIW here's what I did.
> 
> Best thing ever is a citronella spray called Spray Shield. It does not hurt the dog even if you spray it in his eyes. I know this because I accidentally sprayed myself in the eyes with it--didn't pay attention to the nozzle direction, duh. Aim for the dog's face right between the eyes. Something about making a big stink makes the dog go away in a hurry. I have even used it to bust up dog fights. It doesn't work on every dog but it worked on the 20 or so dogs I had to use it on.
> 
> Carry a big shepherd's crook. If anyone asks, it's just a walking stick. Something about suddenly sprouting a huge long arm will startle a lot of dogs. Also you can hook the dog's legs with the hook end which can also scare them off.
> 
> Carry a very strong thin nylon slip lead that is arranged so you can slide one end through the ring, so you don't have to slide it over the other dog's head. This is for the worst-case deal where another dog has got hold of yours and your only choice is to choke him off.
> 
> The flashlight thing is interesting. Didn't have the brains to think of it back then. A tactical (extremely bright) flashlight might work even in the day but my guess is it would work better on human predators than dogs because dogs rely so much on their sense of smell. But definitely worth carrying to deter the human thugs.


thanks for the suggestions!! Yes NYC is so annoying with these owners and their dogs. I'll look into the spray!

Also - apologies to everyone if the original post was confusing. I think I was going for the off leash dogs with no recall and dogs on a leash that are out of control when i lumped them all into "off leash"! Anyways, had an encounter today in DC in the suburbs - woman walking towards me with a golden retriever who appeared to never have learned what the world "heel" means. She dropped his leash because he was pulling so hard, he ran up to us, I remained more calm than usual and it was fine. It just shocks me someone would see an approaching shepherd and think "hmm, my dog is pulling this looks like an okay time to drop my dogs leash and let that person and her shepherd handle it" WHOA haha


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## bkernan

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is just too confusing and hard to follow the thread when some people are talking about out of control dogs and others are talking about off leash dogs as if they were the same. A dog can be leashed and yet be out of control. Just because a dog is not leashed does not mean it is out of control. Frankly, I find it insulting to insinuate or declare that an off leash dog is an out of control dog.


Apologies, I know all off leash dogs are not out of control. But in NYC I have yet to encounter an off leash dog in control. I'm hopeful someday I'll meet one!


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## Steve Strom

bkernan said:


> thanks for the suggestions!! Yes NYC is so annoying with these owners and their dogs. I'll look into the spray!
> 
> Also - apologies to everyone if the original post was confusing. I think I was going for the off leash dogs with no recall and dogs on a leash that are out of control when i lumped them all into "off leash"! Anyways, had an encounter today in DC in the suburbs - woman walking towards me with a golden retriever who appeared to never have learned what the world "heel" means. She dropped his leash because he was pulling so hard, he ran up to us, I remained more calm than usual and it was fine. It just shocks me someone would see an approaching shepherd and think "hmm, my dog is pulling this looks like an okay time to drop my dogs leash and let that person and her shepherd handle it" WHOA haha


To be honest, with any of my dogs its never been any real problem with dogs charging up like that. The problems have been with the ones coming up unsure, with that stiff, stalking like walk on or off leash. Whether we like it or not, the majority of people have an expectation that all dogs in public should be fine with this kind of stuff. Right or wrong, I just accept that.


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## tim_s_adams

I agree, space is a requirement, and at least in my view there's no such thing as a well-mannered dog that runs up to yours. Well-mannered dogs stay near their owner and ignore other people and dogs - much like @MineAreWorkingline showed in the video clip. And yes, there's a very strong correlation between ill-mannered people and ill-mannered dogs > which is why dog parks can be challenging at times...


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## MineAreWorkingline

bkernan said:


> Apologies, I know all off leash dogs are not out of control. But in NYC I have yet to encounter an off leash dog in control. I'm hopeful someday I'll meet one!


No problem!

Throughout this the one thing that keeps running through my mind, on a personal level, is when I have multiple off leash dogs out. If I see something that I suspect may be a problem, the first thing I do is leash up the dog with me that would be most willing to resolve that problem before paying attention to the others although I call them all to me. Beware of the leashed dog! :grin2:


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## Kyrielle

tim_s_adams said:


> Do people generally complain about well-mannered dogs whether on or off leash?


98% of them do not in my experience. There's always that 2% that gets mad no matter how well-behaved your dog is when off leash. We had one lady rant and rave for like 5 minutes and apparently continued well after we had walked by her. Her poor friend looked really embarrassed. 

But 98% of people compliment us and many say they wish their dog was well-behaved like ours. Sometimes that makes me wonder if a lot of people would really rather walk their dogs off leash in a peaceful and well-mannered fashion. Maybe that's the secret wish of most dog owners. They just don't know how to get there.


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## Kyrielle

bkernan said:


> Apologies, I know all off leash dogs are not out of control. But in NYC I have yet to encounter an off leash dog in control. I'm hopeful someday I'll meet one!


Sadly, I don't think you ever will--well never say never but you know what I mean. There's just not enough green space in NYC for people to train their dogs off leash with minimal distractions. Plus it doesn't make sense to bother to do so in an urban environment with traffic everywhere. It's not like being in a quiet neighborhood or the woods where there's plenty of room for everyone.


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## tim_s_adams

Now that my pup is large I've noticed that people react differently. We were enjoying a peaceful walk the other day at a local school. There's a small reservoir that has a gravel path around it, and I usually park on the side if the reservoir furthest from the school. As my dog and I got near the end if the reservoir I noticed some folks with a dog on the opposite side. When we got near they shouted to me that I needed to leash my dog. I shouted back that we were not coming near them, and continued on. My puppy noticed their dog, but followed my directions to veer left and keep going...never came anywhere near them. But they immediately leashed their dog and left.

I suppose I could be considered ill-mannered for not following their instructions to leash my dog. But I honestly saw no need...we were never closer than 150 ft from them!


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## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> Now that my pup is large I've noticed that people react differently. We were enjoying a peaceful walk the other day at a local school. There's a small reservoir that has a gravel path around it, and I usually park on the side if the reservoir furthest from the school. As my dog and I got near the end if the reservoir I noticed some folks with a dog on the opposite side. When we got near they shouted to me that I needed to leash my dog. I shouted back that we were not coming near them, and continued on. My puppy noticed their dog, but followed my directions to veer left and keep going...never came anywhere near them. But they immediately leashed their dog and left.
> 
> I suppose I could be considered ill-mannered for not following their instructions to leash my dog. But I honestly saw no need...we were never closer than 150 ft from them!


This exactly! If their dog is a problem, then they need to manage and control their dog, not harass you.


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## islanddog

*How does a leashed dog create problems for off-lead but under control dogs?*

I'm having trouble understanding this. If my dog is off lead and I see a dog on leash, I call my dog & either leash him or otherwise give them space. If the leashed dog is reactive, barking, lunging, it's a training opportunity, or if my dog can't handle that behaviour, it's my job to help him out--u turn, treats, corrections, step off the trail. Leashed dogs are easy to avoid where I live, I can cross the street, heel my dog, step off the trail, so I just don't know how its a problem. Flexi's and long lines are a grey zone. 

Do you mean people with leashed dogs that get dragged over into your dog? or break their leads & run over to start trouble* 

It just seems that a leashed dog should be pretty easy to avoid but maybe it's a scenario I haven't thought of.

I just got back from the trails, my dog interacted with some off lead dogs & was leashed & walked on by others, I called him in to heel to let a horse rider past and someone leashed their dog for me when I had him leashed--they got a big thank you. A perfect day on the trail.


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## MineAreWorkingline

islanddog said:


> *How does a leashed dog create problems for off-lead but under control dogs?*
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding this. If my dog is off lead and I see a dog on leash, I call my dog & either leash him or otherwise give them space. If the leashed dog is reactive, barking, lunging, it's a training opportunity, or if my dog can't handle that behaviour, it's my job to help him out--u turn, treats, corrections, step off the trail. Leashed dogs are easy to avoid where I live, I can cross the street, heel my dog, step off the trail, so I just don't know how its a problem. Flexi's and long lines are a grey zone.
> 
> Do you mean people with leashed dogs that get dragged over into your dog? or break their leads & run over to start trouble*
> 
> It just seems that a leashed dog should be pretty easy to avoid but maybe it's a scenario I haven't thought of.
> 
> I just got back from the trails, my dog interacted with some off lead dogs & was leashed & walked on by others, I called him in to heel to let a horse rider past and someone leashed their dog for me when I had him leashed--they got a big thank you. A perfect day on the trail.


IME, the leashed dogs can and do drag owners around, they do break leashes, but even then I usually don't find those dogs a problem. The biggest problem I have had with out of control leashed dogs is the unwarranted and unprovoked harassment from the owners such as the experience another member posted earlier.


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## tim_s_adams

I had a similar experience recently at a rest stop on my first cross-country trip with my pup. I learned right off that my puppy won't go while on leash - a skill I intend to work on! Anyway, stopped at a rest stop and walked my puppy to a grassy area where I was hoping I could let her go off leash so she could do her business. When I got there I noticed anothwr couple with a GSD off leash playing ball. When they saw us coming they leashes their dog and walked away, so I let me dog run for a bit to relieve herself. After a few minutes the couple came back, so I leashed my dog and they resumed their ball play...

That's how it aught to be everywhere! Courteous humans, and well-mannered dogs...


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## voodoolamb

Kyrielle said:


> 98% of them do not in my experience. There's always that 2% that gets mad no matter how well-behaved your dog is when off leash. We had one lady rant and rave for like 5 minutes and apparently continued well after we had walked by her. Her poor friend looked really embarrassed.
> 
> But 98% of people compliment us and many say they wish their dog was well-behaved like ours. Sometimes that makes me wonder if a lot of people would really rather walk their dogs off leash in a peaceful and well-mannered fashion. Maybe that's the secret wish of most dog owners. They just don't know how to get there.


Don't you just looooove doing off leash obedience routines in front of the 2% though? >

God the look on their faces when you put your dog in a down stay and WALK AWAY from it. Tehehehe

Even better is seeing the cops roll their eyes when they see your out of control at large dog sitting calmly at your side and then you get to watch them tell the crazy lady off for calling 911 for a non emergency. 0


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## Sabis mom

Sabi was the only one of my dogs that was commonly off leash and she had a number of conversational commands that served us well. 
We walked in the industrial area and around the church lot most often. If I saw a person or people first command was 'mind your business', if they moved closer she got 'to me' or a single whistle. If they were really close I picked up her leash which was usually across her back. Other dogs were a non issue as she was not really social and given a choice would maintain distance on her own. She didn't like most male dogs so if they got too close I had to tell her 'not today'. In areas I was unsure of she got 'stick around' and if there were kids in sight we had to tell her 'not your kids'. Lol. 
I had a lady take a video of me and Sabs one day. I thought there was a problem but she just thought it was pretty cool watching us. 
Of all my dogs she had the least problem with off leash dogs as she seemed able to stop them with a look. Very few dogs ever pushed her, the Rott that attacked Shadow would not step off the curb any of the hundreds of times I walked Sabi near there. All Sabs had to do was give it the look and it shut its mouth and retreated.
I think some dogs just attract problems, could be demeanor or it could be something else.


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## Chip18

islanddog said:


> I just assume that when people complain about "off-leash" dogs they mean "out of control dog". I use the same short cut. If I curse "off-lead" dogs, I'm referring to those running at large on the street or those that are launching themselves at a 100 mph towards my leashed dog. I also assume they are not referring to my dog when he's off-lead but minding his own business, or chasing a frisbee in an empty park or politely greeting another off-lead dog with four-way approval (both owners, both dogs).
> 
> Just read down, so yep. I'm one of those who complains about off-lead dogs and I do let my dog off lead under control (or leash him up if necessary to maintain control--it depends). I do think a leashed dog should be an automatic keep away signal for owners letting their dogs run. I learned this as a child, I have more grey hairs than brown now.
> 
> Local trails rules are. Under control or on lead. Unfortunately, most interpret it to mean, off leash zero control too bad so sad take your dog & go home and don't come back if you don't like it.


Thank You I got nothing to add here.


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## Chip18

Kyrielle said:


> Well, I walk my dog off leash on hiking trails, so if I see someone else with their dog off leash, I just shrug and let the two meet. If it goes awry, it goes awry and I'll deal with it then. Haven't had any problems yet, so I guess that approach works.
> 
> I mean, I can't sit here and complain about people with dogs off leash if I do so too. I tend to have much bigger problems with dogs on the leash. They always seem more grumpy and wound up.


Aw well that is your right ... and it's my right to keep your loose dog, out of my dog's face! I don't know you, I don't know your dog??? You keep your distance, I'll keep mine, is how "we" roll. 

I certainly hope your dog never rolls up on the "Wrong Dog??" Such an encounter, just might give you a different outlook on your choices, "IF" you "CHOSE" to get involved??? 

Because at that point "prevention" is out the window and the question becomes "what's the best way to break up a dog fight???" And the standard answer is here??:
Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt

Of course that option only works if the other owner does not a) Pull out a gun to solve the "situation" or b) run off screaming??? 

Often times the other dog may not one's biggest problem's??? One never knows how tightly the unknown dog's owner my be??? Just a friendly head up as it were.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

We went to a big community festival today, thousands of people crammed into a tiny area and tons of people walking dogs too. Funny even though all these dogs were on leashes the amount of lunging and pulling towards my dog was ridiculous, the leashes did nothing to keep them away from us because their owners couldn't hold back. Gandalf just walked calmly past and ignored them. Most these dogs have probably never been given the freedom to run off leash in the woods, I do think it makes for a calmer more balanced dog if you can afford it. It is certainly a privilege to be earned though. I feel as if off leash teaches them independent thinking, it allows a dog to make decisions. Tools like long leads and E collars can be there to correct if the decision was a bad one, and then to let the dog go back to exploring and learning. I would like to hope over time a young pup might eventually gain maturity and learn to make more right than wrong choices through exposure.


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## konathegsd

Chip18 said:


> Kyrielle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I walk my dog off leash on hiking trails, so if I see someone else with their dog off leash, I just shrug and let the two meet. If it goes awry, it goes awry and I'll deal with it then. Haven't had any problems yet, so I guess that approach works.
> 
> I mean, I can't sit here and complain about people with dogs off leash if I do so too. I tend to have much bigger problems with dogs on the leash. They always seem more grumpy and wound up.
> 
> 
> 
> Aw well that is your right ... and it's my right to keep your loose dog, out of my dog's face! I don't know you, I don't know your dog??? You keep your distance, I'll keep mine, is how "we" roll.
> 
> I certainly hope your dog never rolls up on the "Wrong Dog??" Such an encounter, just might give you a different outlook on your choices, "IF" you "CHOSE" to get involved???
> 
> Because at that point "prevention" is out the window and the question becomes "what's the best way to break up a dog fight???" And the standard answer is here??:
> Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt
> 
> Of course that option only works if the other owner does not a) Pull out a gun to solve the "situation" or b) run off screaming???
> 
> Often times the other dog may not one's biggest problem's??? One never knows how tightly the unknown dog's owner my be??? Just a friendly head up as it were.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I can?t stand people who do this. NOT EVERY DOG WANTS TO MEET. My non gsd would be pissed of a dog off leash ran up to her (on leash) . Irresponsible.


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## Kyrielle

Chip18 said:


> Aw well that is your right ... and it's my right to keep your loose dog, out of my dog's face! I don't know you, I don't know your dog??? You keep your distance, I'll keep mine, is how "we" roll.
> 
> I certainly hope your dog never rolls up on the "Wrong Dog??" Such an encounter, just might give you a different outlook on your choices, "IF" you "CHOSE" to get involved???
> 
> Because at that point "prevention" is out the window and the question becomes "what's the best way to break up a dog fight???" And the standard answer is here??:
> Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt
> 
> Of course that option only works if the other owner does not a) Pull out a gun to solve the "situation" or b) run off screaming???
> 
> Often times the other dog may not one's biggest problem's??? One never knows how tightly the unknown dog's owner my be??? Just a friendly head up as it were.





konathegsd said:


> Exactly. I can?t stand people who do this. NOT EVERY DOG WANTS TO MEET. My non gsd would be pissed of a dog off leash ran up to her (on leash) . Irresponsible.


Well, I don't do it without asking the other off leash owners first. Goodness I'm not THAT rude. I'm just saying I don't get my undies in a twist over little things.

And frankly, if someone pulled out a gun to solve a "situation" with a dog going up to their dog calmly (even if my dog or I wasn't in any way involved), I'm calling the police because that person is seriously unstable and probably needs a lesson in when to use deadly force. I'd even go so far as to question whether they should even be carrying. As for the person running away, my dog isn't going anywhere. He's learned never to chase people, and if he broke protocol, well he always has a e-collar on when there's no leash and he would be corrected very strongly if he even TRIED to make a move.

If a dog is on the leash, I don't even bother. Those people usually want to be left alone unless they say something.


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## Chip18

Kyrielle said:


> Well, I don't do it without asking the other off leash owners first. Goodness I'm not THAT rude. I'm just saying I don't get my undies in a twist over little things.


Wellll, if that's what you do??? I stand corrected, because that is not what I read in your original post??? But whatever, if I misunderstood, I apologize; sometimes I miss stuff. 

And undies in a twist over little things?? OK then I most certainly hope, that you never had any need to actually understand the type of situations with loose dogs gone wild) that some of us are "actually" trying to talk about. And that some of us want to better understand how to effectively "neutralize." 

Maybe a lot of us ... *"need to move to better neighbors???"
*That's been said before, but you know we live where we live and some of us aren't going to "move??" And we and our dogs "will not be screwed with" or you know, there will be "consequences" because we don't freaking play! Or as I am want to say, to freaking tools, "Train Your Freaking Dog!" 





Kyrielle said:


> And frankly, if someone pulled out a gun to solve a "situation" with a dog going up to their dog calmly (even if my dog or I wasn't in any way involved), I'm calling the police because that person is seriously unstable and probably needs a lesson in when to use deadly force. I'd even go so far as to question whether they should even be carrying. As for the person running away, my dog isn't going anywhere. He's learned never to chase people, and if he broke protocol, well he always has a e-collar on when there's no leash and he would be corrected very strongly if he even TRIED to make a move.
> 
> If a dog is on the leash, I don't even bother. Those people usually want to be left alone unless they say something.


Hm, clearly you misunderstood, pretty much everything in that post??? 

Not every owner is going to "pitch" in if a crap goes "sideways" in a is your dog friendly encounter???" Some will just stand there like a useless lump and others will run screaming away, maybe while dialing 911??? Or the truly heartless, will just abandon their dog?? Cause you know my dog's behaviour is not my problem, its your problem! And those "owner's" well, they'll just get a better dog next time around??? 

And not every dog owner who is determined to "protect their dog" will use non lethal means to do so??? They aren't going to screw around with, "Bear or Wasp Spray, Air Horns, Stun Guns (legal or not) or Walking Sticks (not to mention knives, ice picks or machetes??) No some people have little patience for their dog being attacked and in "Open Carry" or "Concealed Carry" state. They have no need to bother, they already have a means to "protect their dog" readily at hand. And some of them won't hesitate to put a loose dog, attacking there dog down, in a freaking heartbeat! 

And on a less dramatic front if someone else's, loose dogs behaviours, causes a leashed dog to lose it and drag the owner down and they get hurt trying to restrain there now out of control dog??? Then you know for the loose dog owner, it maybe time to hire a lawyer???

Speaking for myself, in me and Rocky's, very first loose dog encounter! Those dogs made me slip on the freaking ice while protecting, Rocky and that freaking hurt! And Rocky was still behind and he never moved, until he saw I was down and the last dog was still charging??? And then he stepped over me to intercept! The last dog rethought his life's choices and flat disappeared?? I was ticked off and my back hurt! And I had pretty much the best witnesses to the event that one could have, three members of LE! 

But that tool of an owner, got off lucky! My dog was fine and I have been hit harder! I just wanted to go home! So that owner got off with a terse "Train Your Freaking Dogs!" And we were out of there! 

My goal is to protect my dog's and if I can achieve, through non lethal means and without injury to someone else's pet's, so much the better! No lawsuits, no Vet Trips for Dog's, no trip to the ER for owners and no involvement by LE for explanations as to why a dog got gunned down??? 

I don't have time or patience for fools! Me and my dogs just want to be left alone, and my one rule is simple and absolute! Truly "Dog Friendly" og's or not ... I don't freaking care! If someone else's "Dog Friendly" dog get's in my "Dog's face" without my pression??? Well then first, you've already ticked me off! And I will calmly step between that dog I don't know and my dog and I will ask politely "Once" for that owner to "Please Remove, their dog from my dog's space!" Yes ... I've done that at the visit office. And it was a beautiful massive apparently dog friendly Dobbie on a freaking flexi leash??? 

Nice dog but it did not matter to me. He allowed his dog to get in my dog's face without "Asking me first!" And that ticked me off, my dog my rules! So yesss ... I suppose I'm a two percenter???

So I can speak for us?? And yes, "we" do have a problem with "balanced dogs" getting in our dogs face without our permission???* I don't know you, I don't know your dog?? You keep your distance, I'll keep mine ... "Thank You!"* Is how we roll! 

I'm happy you seem to have no idea why some of us would do that??? I hope that never changes for you.


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## MineAreWorkingline

A person who can't physically control their own poorly behaved or poorly trained dog perhaps should not have it out in public until they do get control. Blaming the next guy is not a viable option, life happens.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A person who can't physically control their own poorly behaved or poorly trained dog perhaps should not have it out in public until they do get control. Blaming the next guy is not a viable option, life happens.


This a hundred times over. I wish everyone was this responsible. We take to the trails and even with the new long lead sometimes we hit a tight corner and I just pray there isn't an aggressive dog on the blind side.. Really a bad apple does ruin the bunch. It isn't fair that we can't enjoy the good things in life because others just don't care. I am 100% confident if my guy got off the leash he would be friendly with all people and critters he met along the trail, and this is why I continue to take him on the trail. If this ever changed I wouldn't take the risk.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A person who can't physically control their own poorly behaved or poorly trained dog perhaps should not have it out in public until they do get control. Blaming the next guy is not a viable option, life happens.


"Door Bolters!" Once in Ca and six times with Rocky here in NV. And yesss, after I stopped those dogs from getting to him! I did "blame those owners, for not training their dog! I can't really speak as to how "well bred they were??" 

Because well first "I don't care" and second, I was to busy at the time "defending my dog" to consult a handbook on "Breed Standards??" It's my job to protect my dogs or dogs under my care. From "poor choices" by other dog owners and I am good at my job! If people keep their dog's out of "our space," then they won't even know we are around unless they see us. 

We (me and my dog's) don't look for trouble?? But if trouble is out there on the Paw as it were, it best chose a "Softer Target" cause we don't play! We will not be screwed with and trouble best believe that! Others of course free to do as they see fit, cause you know, "Life Happens."


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## Slamdunc

Perhaps, people could train their dogs to be non reactive and under control when walking down the street. A simple "heel" and "watch me command" will cause most loose dogs to stop. If the loose dog persists, a stern warning will work with 98% of dogs out there. As long as your dog is under control the vast majority, and I mean vast majority of dogs will stop and not pursue your dog. It is really not as a big of a deal as some make it out to be. Don't look for trouble and keep moving with a well behaved dog and you will rarely if ever have an issue. 

Folks that have an issue with dozens of dogs, are probably doing something that incites the issue or are reading the dogs the wrong way.


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## Sabis mom

I have a dog who is never off leash, muzzled off my property, walked on a prong, and a 5 foot leash. We have worked brutally hard to over come multiple dog attacks, that really fed what was a crappy temperament to start with. Shadow hates other dogs, and I mean hates. 
Loose dogs are annoying. Dog owners with on leash dogs who refuse to accept the need for personal space are annoying. It has taken forever to get Shadow to the point where I can walk down the street without her loosing it. She needs space, so some random dog rushing at her for ANY reason to her looks like an attack. 
It is incredibly difficult for me to teach her to ignore other dogs, when she is continually threatened by them. 
I think to say that the fault lies with those of us who do control our dogs is incredibly flawed. Shadow was 6 weeks old the first time she was attacked. The dog jumped my fence, into my yard. She was 4 months old the second time, on leash and happily exploring on one of her first outtings with out Sabs or Bud. The dog crossed the street and grabbed her. She was less then 6 months old the third time. The dog went over me and into my car as I was putting her in it. I got bitten as well. 
I cannot say that any of those situations were avoidable and trust me, none of those dogs were backing down.


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## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> Perhaps, people could train their dogs to be non reactive and under control when walking down the street.


Yesss, and would that not be called "VictimcBlaming???" The base assumption being that our dogs are doing something??? 

My first dog bolting, two dog charge was fully observed by two or three LE enforcement officers as it occurred at the local substation. And had I field an incident report they would have said my dog on leash did *"Nothing" *until the owner was flat on his back and the last dog kept coming and then the dog owners stepped over him to intercept the last dog! 

Turning around and trying to walk away from two charging dogs, did not strike me as a viable option??? Nor was continuing to walk away a viable option with our "Lab gone wild, walking stick encounter."17 rogue dog encounters, with my own dog and another one with a dog I did not train. And all dogs, all did the same thing "Stay and then Nothing!" Let me deal with this. My dogs have never been in a factor in my nemours "rouge dog" encounters. But if others feel more comfortable with the turn the other cheek approach, they are free to do so. 

Maybe that works where they are?? I'd say "Good Luck with that out here." 

Oh and for clarification just to be clear.:

Nothing. :not anything; no single thing.
synonyms: not a thing, not anything, nil, zero, naught/nought; 

Stay works just fine for "me" because I'm not turning my back or walking away from an incoming threat. But if the look at me, heel and walk away approach works for others, go for it. But for me and my dogs in a "dogs gone wild" situation??? One of us will be backing down or someone or dog is gonna get hurt. I don't play but if some are uncomfortable with that approach, then they are free to do as they see fit! 

There is more than one way to defuse a rogue dog, situation?? And I'm quite comfortable with my chosen approach. And yeah ... I'll grant it did not work out to well when I could not see at night, my bad. But I don't "know" if that dog would have still came through, the gate and got Rocky from the rear??? And she never made a sound until she struck him. Ambush Predator, defined for the record. A WL GSD, as it turned out, life is full of irony, I suppose???


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## Chip18

Sabis mom said:


> I have a dog who is never off leash, muzzled off my property, walked on a prong, and a 5 foot leash. We have worked brutally hard to over come multiple dog attacks, that really fed what was a crappy temperament to start with. Shadow hates other dogs, and I mean hates.
> Loose dogs are annoying. Dog owners with on leash dogs who refuse to accept the need for personal space are annoying. It has taken forever to get Shadow to the point where I can walk down the street without her loosing it. She needs space, so some random dog rushing at her for ANY reason to her looks like an attack.
> It is incredibly difficult for me to teach her to ignore other dogs, when she is continually threatened by them.
> I think to say that the fault lies with those of us who do control our dogs is incredibly flawed. Shadow was 6 weeks old the first time she was attacked. The dog jumped my fence, into my yard. She was 4 months old the second time, on leash and happily exploring on one of her first outtings with out Sabs or Bud. The dog crossed the street and grabbed her. She was less then 6 months old the third time. The dog went over me and into my car as I was putting her in it. I got bitten as well.
> I cannot say that any of those situations were avoidable and trust me, none of those dogs were backing down.


Oh wow!! That is an incredible among of hard luck for one puppy/dog!! Those are circumstances not even I envisaged??? Stay safe out there you two. :hug:


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## Slamdunc

I've walked dog aggressive dogs and non dog aggressive dogs past many loose dogs and never had a problem. I've had a few dogs charge mine when tracking a suspect at night, I simply told them to "knock it off" and kept moving. I can't recall one encounter with DA dogs worthy of posting on a forum. I simply deal with it and move on and not make a big deal out of it. My dogs will not react and if they did I would deal with my dogs. I suppose I just don't male a big deal out of loose dogs. 

Occasionally, I encounter loose dogs and the vast majority are not dog fighters or looking for a fight. Since I can read a dog pretty well and my dogs are under control I rarely worry about it. I've owned dogs for a long time and walked them everyday, I've worked dogs on the street for years and I can not remember an encounter with one dog that really wanted to fight my dogs. Even the dogs that will run up to your dog barking and charging they are rarely truly dog aggressive. Especially, GSD's they are usually the easiest to fend off.


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## bkernan

Slamdunc said:


> I've walked dog aggressive dogs and non dog aggressive dogs past many loose dogs and never had a problem. I've had a few dogs charge mine when tracking a suspect at night, I simply told them to "knock it off" and kept moving. I can't recall one encounter with DA dogs worthy of posting on a forum. I simply deal with it and move on and not make a big deal out of it. My dogs will not react and if they did I would deal with my dogs. I suppose I just don't male a big deal out of loose dogs.
> 
> Occasionally, I encounter loose dogs and the vast majority are not dog fighters or looking for a fight. Since I can read a dog pretty well and my dogs are under control I rarely worry about it. I've owned dogs for a long time and walked them everyday, I've worked dogs on the street for years and I can not remember an encounter with one dog that really wanted to fight my dogs. Even the dogs that will run up to your dog barking and charging they are rarely truly dog aggressive. Especially, GSD's they are usually the easiest to fend off.


After reading all the replies I feel like maybe it's all in my head and I have been making too big of a deal out of it. I guess I'm just worried about worst case scenarios and am flying my helicopter dog parent flag a little too high LOL I definitely will be more nonchalant about it moving forward. You're right, most dogs aren't looking for trouble


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## Apex1

bkernan said:


> After reading all the replies I feel like maybe it's all in my head and I have been making too big of a deal out of it. I guess I'm just worried about worst case scenarios and am flying my helicopter dog parent flag a little too high LOL I definitely will be more nonchalant about it moving forward. You're right, most dogs aren't looking for trouble


My experience is limited, but i think it's not all in your head. It only takes 1 time, 1 bad experience, caution is a good. I have had 1 off leash charging dog come at my puppy, it was enough to make my heart go fast. I was scared, my pup jumped behind me as a barking charging Great Dane ran right at us. What the dogs intentions were i dont know, but he did stop cold in his tracks when I yelled GO HOME DOG! That Dane stopped and stared at me dead in his tracks, as I think how the heck do I proceed, stand off. My pup peaked out behind my leg caught the Danes eyes he started to move and bark another GO HOME DOG stopped him. We stood at a stand off. His owners came from their home, Dane went right to them it was over. 

Had the owners not come, what was i to do? How do you back out of a situation like that, a dog loves a moving target. 

I live in an odd kind of country off leash dogs no fences and they all seem to stay on their lots as long as your not walking by with your dog. Although I know a neighbor kid who says he cant walk away from his house because of an aggressive loose dog. So no walks in my hood. 

My neighbor directly across the street his dog chased my pup right back into our yard, owner called HEY GET BACK HERE, dog came running home. Needless to say maybe, but we learned a lesson that day too. That dog meant way more business then the Dane.....I could just tell, luckily that dog is only outside with the owner and obviously under voice control. He is old and grumpy that dog. 

I consider myself lucky. 

I had another neighbor who stopped by with his older GSD, my husband was in the yard, my son ran into the house to get me, because my husband wasn't sure what to do, the neighbor wanted them to play. As I come out the dogs are meeting on leash the old GSD starts to get agressive i yell DROP THE LEASHES NOW, they listened and the dogs had a good time. BTW I had met the old GSD before he is good dog. 

Maybe experience which I have none of makes a difference but thus far my heart races each time. Maybe I have heard one to many bad stories from sources i know to be true. 

I also have a neighbor with a few dogs they watch us play through the chain link and our dogs bark back and forth sometimes makes me sad cause I never see the owner out with the dogs. 

So long story short as I have found the topic interesting. When in a stare down your dog, loose dog with no owner present, how do you get out of the situation?


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## Kyrielle

Chip18 said:


> Wellll, if that's what you do??? I stand corrected, because that is not what I read in your original post??? But whatever, if I misunderstood, I apologize; sometimes I miss stuff.
> <snip>


I failed to communicate clearly in the first place, so my bad. And it's likely I misunderstood your post. I admittedly have a hard time reading what you write. Not sure why, but I do.


I guess I've just lived a sheltered life? I've never seen or heard of anyone where I live actually carrying bear spray, mace, stun guns, walking sticks, etc...for use against dogs. Against people? Absolutely. But dogs? No. It's not like the dogs here are all well-trained/behaved either. Just never heard of anyone (outside of the internets) mentioning those or seeing anything like them on the news or from talking to people.

Most of us just ignore the loose dog and keep going, and if it keeps following, a good "Go home!" works most of the time. Loose dogs here don't want to kill anyone. The worst thing they do is go poop in your yard or come bother you out of curiosity.

So, yes, consider me completely ignorant of "loose dog attacked my dog/me, so now I bring along mace" situations. Never happened in my life or the lives of people around me. I guess I can't really relate.


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## Jenny720

I would love to have that focus heel in that situation I just can?t attain that. Maybe I will bring ball with me now it?s winter I can stuff it In my pocket. Leaving it works but that focus heel would be more useful. I never really ran across a dog that was a real threat maybe once as a kid a dog attacked my pup that was enough. Another time a dog attacked my friends pup. Or another time I had a pit bull scale the fence on a walk with my dog and my dog seemed to diffuse the situation. All the other times it is just hot air. I think walking them one at time is best and is what I try to do. I never had the need to carry something to protect me and my dogs but those that do I?m sure they have a reason for that as long as it?s not dangerous to anyone.

My issue is when I taking a walk with my dogs and people just stand and watch while their obnoxious dog charges into us or tries to on repeated occasions. I know stuff happens I?m not immune to it. I have to of course control the situation which whatever may work and then their actions are like whoa what?s the big deal let me just stand and watch. It is not routine or a normal part of walk but it is not fun. I guess it?s part of owning a dog and going for a walk in the Neighborhood. The same as if someone texts on their phone while driving those people you have to look out for on a walk as well to if they loose control of their car and head in right into your direction it?s all part of it?. 

When I go to the beach at different parks and trails. Walking by lots of people and their dogs. I have to say everyone is polite and have well mannered dogs. Dogs off lead are engaged with their owners. Those are the places I encounter with well behaved dogs. People who respect others space. Can seem to read others people body language. One person i remember once had their dog off lead jogged by us - a big Swiss mountain dog I asked ahead if he was okay he said he?s is indifferent. the dog did not even look our way as we passed each other that dog was well trained. If I?m walking down a narrow path and I don?t know what is a head I always shorten the leash and be respectful to what?s around the corner. Actually I was on a trail walk yesterday. Trails were so narrow max wanting to smell every passer byer and then likes to look at them right in the eye as if to do a soul search. I make sure he keeps to his own business. People with dogs we all made room for each other. I made sure my dogs behaved. Once we did hit the bay where we had it all to ourselves they were allowed to wild and free.


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## Steve Strom

bkernan said:


> After reading all the replies I feel like maybe it's all in my head and I have been making too big of a deal out of it. I guess I'm just worried about worst case scenarios and am flying my helicopter dog parent flag a little too high LOL I definitely will be more nonchalant about it moving forward. You're right, most dogs aren't looking for trouble


I'd say relax a little, but don't be nonchalant and quit paying attention. You just being involved in the interaction between dogs can stop a lot of things before they get started.


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## dogma13

@Apex1 in the situation you described with the Great Dane and if no owner was present I would do the same but with a twist:Eye contact,Go Home Dog!When the dog stops, break eye contact and gaze to the side while keeping him in your peripheral vision.Stand up tall and confidently and wait him out.99 times out of 100 that dog will relax ,sniff around for a minute,then be on his way.This is mimicking dog body language to communicate that you and your dog are peaceful,not interested in a challenge,and will go your separate ways.I've had occasion to do this myself and it really does work.With a persistent greeter you may have to go through the ritual a couple of times if you begin to move off and he follows.


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## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> Especially, GSD's they are usually the easiest to fend off.


Oh well our experiences differ on that point. The one I could not see in the dark, was apparently pretty fearless?? She brushed past my left thigh to get to Rocky (who did as he was told, nothing.) Darkness was her friend and she knew it, walking away was not a viable option against that dog under those conditions.

But hey, if I come across a loose charging GSD under daylight conditions (and I never have) I'll report back.


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## Chip18

Apex1 said:


> I had another neighbor who stopped by with his older GSD, my husband was in the yard, my son ran into the house to get me, because my husband wasn't sure what to do, the neighbor wanted them to play. As I come out the dogs are meeting on leash the old GSD starts to get aggressive i yell DROP THE LEASHES NOW, they listened and the dogs had a good time. BTW I had met the old GSD before he is good dog.


That was gutsy but a good call!  



Apex1 said:


> Maybe experience which I have none of makes a difference but thus far my heart races each time.


Aww yeah, but the best preparation for the unexpected is a well trained dog. I can't protect my dog and deal with his crap while trying to do so and I don't! If we get charged, I tell my dog Stay and I step in front of front of him/them. 

A charging dog is focused on your dog (typically) not you. If your dog disappears as it were, it becomes a hey where did that guy/girl come from situation?? Time to do a rethink for the dog?? 



Apex1 said:


> So long story short as I have found the topic interesting. When in a stare down your dog, loose dog with no owner present, how do you get out of the situation?


Typically if you thwart the initial charge successfully, they will get bored and move on. With the Dane that's what you did, stopped the initial charge and gave the owners time to retrieve there dog, job well done.


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## cloudpump

Chip18 said:


> That was gutsy but a good call!
> 
> Aww yeah, but the best preparation for the unexpected is a well trained dog. I can't protect my dog and deal with his crap while trying to do so and I don't! If we get charged, I tell my dog Stay and I step in front of front of him/them.
> 
> A charging dog is focused on your dog (typically) not you. If your dog disappears as it were, it becomes a hey where did that guy/girl come from situation?? Time to do a rethink for the dog??
> 
> Typically if you thwart the initial charge successfully, they will get bored and move on. With the Dane that's what you did, stopped the initial charge and gave the owners time to retrieve there dog, job well done.


I was in nc once. I had to do all in my power to keep those dogs away. Kicking and swinging. Didn't stop them game dogs. Luckily, no contact was made.


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## MineAreWorkingline

@Apex1, if I had a puppy and was approached by a Dane, truthfully, I would know that my pup would be a non issue in a dog fight based on it being a puppy, and when faced with an off leash Great Dane, I would assume that because such a large dog was off leash, and because of its breed, that it was most likely a safe dog. What would I have done? I would have called the Dane over and made friends with it.


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## Apex1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Apex1, if I had a puppy and was approached by a Dane, truthfully, I would know that my pup would be a non issue in a dog fight based on it being a puppy, and when faced with an off leash Great Dane, I would assume that because such a large dog was off leash, and because of its breed, that it was most likely a safe dog. What would I have done? I would have called the Dane over and made friends with it.


You have experience and confidence that I do not LOL. It is good for me to read from you, Dogma13 and Chip18, I can slow my heart a little, and approach future encounters with more confidence. I do have a very dog friendly pup, my thoughts were at the time keeping him safe and friendly. I do try very hard to not do leashed meet and greets, he is still an excitable big puppy. I did the only thing I knew to do in the moment. I suppose a dog who really meant harm would look more ferocious and not let me stop it. 

If you were to call the dog over would you do the lowering of your body, with a twist to the side, holding a hand out, avoiding eye contact? 

I appreciate the advice, alternative perspective, and will continue to work towards having a well trained dog. 

Thanks~


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## MineAreWorkingline

Apex1 said:


> You have experience and confidence that I do not LOL. It is good for me to read from you, Dogma13 and Chip18, I can slow my heart a little, and approach future encounters with more confidence. I do have a very dog friendly pup, my thoughts were at the time keeping him safe and friendly. I do try very hard to not do leashed meet and greets, he is still an excitable big puppy. I did the only thing I knew to do in the moment. I suppose a dog who really meant harm would look more ferocious and not let me stop it.
> 
> If you were to call the dog over would you do the lowering of your body, with a twist to the side, holding a hand out, avoiding eye contact?
> 
> I appreciate the advice, alternative perspective, and will continue to work towards having a well trained dog.
> 
> Thanks~


I would use the approach suggested by Dogma only if I felt the dog was a serious threat. 

From what you posted, this Dane was not and I would just have called him over in a friendly, relaxed manner.


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## Chip18

cloudpump said:


> I was in nc once. I had to do all in my power to keep those dogs away. Kicking and swinging. Didn't stop them game dogs. Luckily, no contact was made.


Kudos to you my friend it sounds like a performance worthy of a Houndy!:










Despite my numerous loose encounters, I've never had to laid hands or foot on a loose dog??? Charging dogs in Ca seem to calculate odds of success much quicker than dogs in NV??? I know Ca Cat's seem to be smarter, as I now have four NV cats ... dumb as fricking bricks but that's another story. But glad it worked out for you ... that sounds "exciting" in a bad way! :surprise:


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## melissa282

I live in an area surrounded by native reservation. The dogs are either stray and off leash, or the owner just lets them out the door and hopes they come back, or they are attached to a tree or post with a 1-2ft leash. It sucks.


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## Chip18

Kyrielle said:


> I failed to communicate clearly in the first place, so my bad. And it's likely I misunderstood your post. I admittedly have a hard time reading what you write. Not sure why, but I do.


LOL welcome to the club and it's not you it's me. 



Kyrielle said:


> I guess I've just lived a sheltered life? I've never seen or heard of anyone where I live actually carrying bear spray, mace, stun guns, walking sticks, etc...for use against dogs. Against people? Absolutely. But dogs? No. It's not like the dogs here are all well-trained/behaved either. Just never heard of anyone (outside of the internets) mentioning those or seeing anything like them on the news or from talking to people.
> 
> Most of us just ignore the loose dog and keep going, and if it keeps following, a good "Go home!" works most of the time. Loose dogs here don't want to kill anyone. The worst thing they do is go poop in your yard or come bother you out of curiosity.
> 
> So, yes, consider me completely ignorant of "loose dog attacked my dog/me, so now I bring along mace" situations. Never happened in my life or the lives of people around me. I guess I can't really relate.


I'm thrilled that you can't relate. 

But I do a few breeds and one of them is "Boxer's" and on FB people have had (frequently) there "Boxer" puppies horribly mangled in Dog Park and in, is your dog friendly encounters! 

Boxer owners just seem to be particularly clueless that an unknown dog could harm there puppy??? Hence that is where I come from. I advocate and practice a "Zero Tolerance Policy" for unknown dogs! If a dog approaches us in a calm friendly manner (LOL as if I've ever seen that happen??) Then he will "still" be stopped in a calm and friendly manner. I will still tell my dogs to stay and I will still step in front of them and say "Go Home!" I have zero interest, in "reading unknown" dogs. I don't care, and as I am want to say, others can do as they see fit. No one here would have any issues with my dogs, your dogs won't meet them.  

I like to KISS as it were and my Boxer in ten years was never attacked!! Because I understand who I am! And rest assured if some owner present tool's dog attacked my Boxer??? My first job would be to get that dog of my Boxer! And when that was accomplished, I'd go after that owner! And most likely there would be Lawsuits and LE involvement! 

So for me ... it's best for all involved that I do what I do. I'm just not a "Dog Park" kinda guy.


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## Chip18

melissa282 said:


> I live in an area surrounded by native reservation. The dogs are either stray and off leash, or the owner just lets them out the door and hopes they come back, or they are attached to a tree or post with a 1-2ft leash. It sucks.


That sucks but I get it. My client is a vet and he lives in the middle of nowhere, Silver Springs NV.

And he allowed his Breed that shall not be mentioned, to roam free in the NV desert. He's let the dog out in the morning and hopefully the dog would come home in the evening??? There was no training no recall and no boundaries, (the dog had ten freaking acres.) and no recall?? Well finally someone shot his dog and the dog managed to get home to die. 

I told him I would my Dogs out to open Desert and my Boxer would chase Bunnies for hours and when it was time to go "I'd recall them." He had no idea that was even possible??? 

Sadly people often make poor choices for there dogs and the dogs often pay with there lives for having ... uninformed owners.


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## melissa282

They treat them like cattle but actually the cattle has a better life... It makes no sense to me. Today, I found out a cop owned that dog on a 2 ft leash, if it was even that long. Poor thing was whining and yelping, he could not even lie down. It's sick. The day I saw it, I reported it. Apparently, the dog is back with a little longer leash... 



Chip18 said:


> melissa282 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in an area surrounded by native reservation. The dogs are either stray and off leash, or the owner just lets them out the door and hopes they come back, or they are attached to a tree or post with a 1-2ft leash. It sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> That sucks but I get it. My client is a vet and he lives in the middle of nowhere, Silver Springs NV.
> 
> And he allowed his Breed that shall not be mentioned, to roam free in the NV desert. He's let the dog out in the morning and hopefully the dog would come home in the evening??? There was no training no recall and no boundaries, (the dog had ten freaking acres.) and no recall?? Well finally someone shot his dog and the dog managed to get home to die.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told him I would my Dogs out to open Desert and my Boxer would chase Bunnies for hours and when it was time to go "I'd recall them." He had no idea that was even possible???
> 
> Sadly people often make poor choices for there dogs and the dogs often pay with there lives for having ... uninformed owners.
Click to expand...


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## Nigel

People's experience with loose dogs will vary depending on a number of factors. Income levels, access to resources i.e. spay/neuter, (non) existence of animal control, ect.. 
Most of the aggressive encounters I've had came during a period when our area had no animal control contract. Most of my dog encounters were still friendly, neutral, or easily deterred, however the likelyhood of encountering aggressive dogs were notably higher than the percentages others have mentioned. Risk was high enough combined with the boring nature of neighborhood walks its just not worth it for us. 

While our county's budget may cut services at some point again, We do have access to areas free from loose dogs and even better yet no people, there's no need to keep your guard up.


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## Chip18

Jenny720 said:


> Ambush predators yes lol!I think you have to use your judgment at the moment. I had used both being calm and just walking or blocking(gandolf method). All have not been largely practiced but used and worked. hOwners presence non presence dogs are much more brazen when their owners are in the area. One time I dropped the leash it was just something instinctual not a busy street and at a dead end not the smartest thing I have done. Not recommending it just saying every situation is different and can be handled differently. Luna does not like charging dogs- Max does not like other dogs he is zoned in on me in a heartbeat- my emotions mAtter. so my response and actions are important. I keep them away regardless whatever way I use at the time as long as their is no altercation all is good.
> 
> There was a light I mentioned I think I will try it but this has happened during daylight hours.


If you dropped the leash??? And your do was still not a problem?? Then you've done well, he is looking to you to deal with this crap??? With a well trained dog under "stress" situations, leash or no leash it makes no difference. 

And the flashlight thing during daylight hours??? I have no idea, if that works??? The Flashlight, was "suggested" to me by Slam " ie, perhaps carrying a flashlight at night might be a good idea???" And then he explained how it could be best be used. Neither of us made any mention of using a flashlight during daylight hours??? 

So "flashlight" during "daytime???" Would be a "Slamdunc" question. When I can see, I'm good with my Walking Stick ... lesson learned.


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## Chip18

melissa282 said:


> They treat them like cattle but actually the cattle has a better life... It makes no sense to me. Today, I found out a cop owned that dog on a 2 ft leash, if it was even that long. Poor thing was whining and yelping, he could not even lie down. It's sick. The day I saw it, I reported it. Apparently, the dog is back with a little longer leash...


Oh I'm sorry, it sucks to see something like that but at least you were able to make some improvement in that poor dogs life.


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## bkernan

islanddog said:


> *How does a leashed dog create problems for off-lead but under control dogs?*
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding this. If my dog is off lead and I see a dog on leash, I call my dog & either leash him or otherwise give them space. If the leashed dog is reactive, barking, lunging, it's a training opportunity, or if my dog can't handle that behaviour, it's my job to help him out--u turn, treats, corrections, step off the trail. Leashed dogs are easy to avoid where I live, I can cross the street, heel my dog, step off the trail, so I just don't know how its a problem. Flexi's and long lines are a grey zone.
> 
> Do you mean people with leashed dogs that get dragged over into your dog? or break their leads & run over to start trouble*
> 
> It just seems that a leashed dog should be pretty easy to avoid but maybe it's a scenario I haven't thought of.
> 
> I just got back from the trails, my dog interacted with some off lead dogs & was leashed & walked on by others, I called him in to heel to let a horse rider past and someone leashed their dog for me when I had him leashed--they got a big thank you. A perfect day on the trail.


You would definitely assume for untrained dogs the leash would work fine. In the 6 months we've had Hudson I have had several encounters with "leashed" dogs where their owners weren't holding the leash tight enough and it flew through their hands, one dog's leash snapped and the owner of the dog was freaking out saying his dog attacks (that was an exceptionally dramatic encounter), and just last week a woman with a golden retriever who was *dragging* her towards my dog just let go of the leash and threw her hands up in defeat. LOL. I mean you can't make this stuff up, it's crazy. I used to freak out and yell at every owner during one of these situations but now I only get upset if we're walking in a high traffic area or if a scene is caused by their dog being aggressive/reactive. Hudson is pretty good in these situations and really wants nothing to do with the other dog.


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## bkernan

Jenny720 said:


> I would love to have that focus heel in that situation I just can?t attain that. Maybe I will bring ball with me now it?s winter I can stuff it In my pocket. Leaving it works but that focus heel would be more useful. I never really ran across a dog that was a real threat maybe once as a kid a dog attacked my pup that was enough. Another time a dog attacked my friends pup. Or another time I had a pit bull scale the fence on a walk with my dog and my dog seemed to diffuse the situation. All the other times it is just hot air. I think walking them one at time is best and is what I try to do. I never had the need to carry something to protect me and my dogs but those that do I?m sure they have a reason for that as long as it?s not dangerous to anyone.
> 
> My issue is when I taking a walk with my dogs and people just stand and watch while their obnoxious dog charges into us or tries to on repeated occasions. I know stuff happens I?m not immune to it. I have to of course control the situation which whatever may work and then their actions are like whoa what?s the big deal let me just stand and watch. It is not routine or a normal part of walk but it is not fun. I guess it?s part of owning a dog and going for a walk in the Neighborhood. The same as if someone texts on their phone while driving those people you have to look out for on a walk as well to if they loose control of their car and head in right into your direction it?s all part of it?.
> 
> When I go to the beach at different parks and trails. Walking by lots of people and their dogs. I have to say everyone is polite and have well mannered dogs. Dogs off lead are engaged with their owners. Those are the places I encounter with well behaved dogs. People who respect others space. Can seem to read others people body language. One person i remember once had their dog off lead jogged by us - a big Swiss mountain dog I asked ahead if he was okay he said he?s is indifferent. the dog did not even look our way as we passed each other that dog was well trained. If I?m walking down a narrow path and I don?t know what is a head I always shorten the leash and be respectful to what?s around the corner. Actually I was on a trail walk yesterday. Trails were so narrow max wanting to smell every passer byer and then likes to look at them right in the eye as if to do a soul search. I make sure he keeps to his own business. People with dogs we all made room for each other. I made sure my dogs behaved. Once we did hit the bay where we had it all to ourselves they were allowed to wild and free.


these are gorgeous pictures!!


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## Jenny720

Thanks bkernan!!! I think I must have hundreds of photos of them.


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## Trix

Geeze this same thing just happened to me. Great way to make my 6 month old skittish around other dogs. Some ladies big 70-80lb dog, a breed of which is hewhomustnotbenamed, just came flying at my wife, dog and I. My dog was trying to avoid it while this dog is barking its head off and kept biting mine in the back/hind quarters. 

I could tell it was more of a dominance bite than an aggressive bite but still. I kept kicking the dog away with my foot. Just a pushing kick, while the owner was helplessly trying to get ahold of her dog. It took everything in me to not just go to town beating the **** out of her dog. I just know that out of the 60+ times I’ve had my puppy off leash playing fetch in crowded parks with kids and dogs, trails, etc. he has taken off one time, which was my own fault, so I wanted to give the owner the benefit of the doubt. 

Either way, just really frustrating because I know it knocks his confidence down a bit, and I’ve worked very hard to make him as good as he is when approaching other dogs, he’s usually the much better behaved dog. 


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## Steve Strom

So much for that idea that sniffing butts will make them friends, huh? Contact is where I draw the line. I don't care about noise, posturing, running in circles. No contact, period.


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## Trix

Steve Strom said:


> So much for that idea that sniffing butts will make them friends, huh? Contact is where I draw the line. I don't care about noise, posturing, running in circles. No contact, period.




Yep - I’ve been around enough dogs to know what is a “let’s play” bark/behavior, and this was not it. Fortunately it also wasn’t a “I want to kill you” action, but who knows when it can turn into that at any point or if my dog would do something to make that dog pick it up a notch. 

We could still hear the owner screaming at her dog when we were a block away lol. 

I do wonder what that owners recourse would have been had I of used much more force than I did. It’s one thing for a dog to run up and start barking or whatever, but looking back I think I would’ve been justified to be more aggressive than I was to the point where I was actually needing to protect us vs just separating them. 




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## bkernan

It is so frustrating. I guess I don’t understand having a dog off leash you can’t recall. Nor can I understand having a dog that acts like a wild animal on a leash. Seems needlessly stressful and easily fixable!! Like keep your dog leashes and train it! 

My favorite is when people with small dogs off leash get a sore bum when their dog aggressively runs at mine and Hudson reacts with aggressive barking hackles up (obviously it’s not my favorite and kills me as I worry all the work we have done to get him to where he is with other dogs will be undone). Alas, like clockwork the owner of the small dog will yell at me for having a ferocious dog out in public. Like. Really???? I have taken the advice of everyone here and now downplay it and/or take the high road but it’s so frustrating! My dog is leashed and being assaulted by yours - please tell me how him reacting like this is not warranted. Also please go far far away. And train your dog. LOL just another day in the life of a gsd owner!


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## MineAreWorkingline

bkernan said:


> It is so frustrating. I guess I don’t understand having a dog off leash you can’t recall. Nor can I understand having a dog that acts like a wild animal on a leash. Seems needlessly stressful and easily fixable!! Like keep your dog leashes and train it!
> 
> My favorite is when people with small dogs off leash get a sore bum when their dog aggressively runs at mine and Hudson reacts with aggressive barking hackles up (obviously it’s not my favorite and kills me as I worry all the work we have done to get him to where he is with other dogs will be undone). Alas, like clockwork the owner of the small dog will yell at me for having a ferocious dog out in public. Like. Really???? I have taken the advice of everyone here and now downplay it and/or take the high road but it’s so frustrating! My dog is leashed and being assaulted by yours - please tell me how him reacting like this is not warranted. Also please go far far away. And train your dog. LOL just another day in the life of a gsd owner!


LOL! Don't feel bad. My dogs have been the target of venom and hate for sitting quietly at my side, off leash, because somebody else's dog, leashed, is out of control, as if my dogs are doing anything to instigate the other dog's bad behavior besides breathing.


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## Chip18

Trix said:


> Geeze this same thing just happened to me. Great way to make my 6 month old skittish around other dogs. Some ladies big 70-80lb dog, a breed of which is hewhomustnotbenamed, just came flying at my wife, dog and I. My dog was trying to avoid it while this dog is barking its head off and kept biting mine in the back/hind quarters.


First, I want to say "sorry that happened!" In seventeen attempts" Rocky got "nipped" only once and that was dues to a failing on my part and encounter with just that dog under circumstances that favored the dog, and it freaking seriously "ticked me off!" It only happened once but that was one time too many! 

And after that "I took my own advice" and now I won't walk a dog without my "Walking Stick!" Battle Tested and "Chip Approved!" Bear Spray, Mace, Baton Knives, Pick Ices, all have been carried by other members, that don't play, with this crap! 

But I'll say the only thing that can stop a charging dog cold, faster than a "Walking Stick" would be a quick draw and a "GUN" and that's not my style. When the crap goes down one has tenths of seconds to "Stop a Charging Dog Cold!" And as of uh two days ago ... my "new" Walking Stick, "Cold Stop encounters stands at two.

I got a new charge, 8 lbs of cute and we walk her hood and she has no fear of being screwed with!! Now one of her neighborhood dogs "Clearly Understands that!" I gotta update my thread, in post 20 here, but I got the exact same reaction from "crazy" Dachshund/Fox Terrier" mix that I got from my "Lab gone wild encounter" with "Rocky!" A cold hard application of the brakes (by the dog) and utter confusion on the part of the chargee! And in the last encounter ... I never said a word! As I was to freaking ticked off to speak!!!


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## KaiserAus

We were charged again last night by two off leash dogs who appeared to have zero recall... I clapped my hands, stamped my feet and shouted "hey" in their faces - they stopped dead in their tracks and watched us walk past - their owner calling their names uselessly. But at least it didn't turn into a negative experience for my boy.


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## Chip18

KaiserAus said:


> We were charged again last night by two off leash dogs who appeared to have zero recall... I clapped my hands, stamped my feet and shouted "hey" in their faces - they stopped dead in their tracks and watched us walk past - their owner calling their names uselessly. But at least it didn't turn into a negative experience for my boy.


Hmm it seems to be a near year's end sudden bust of dogs gone wild???? 

Glad it worked out well! And yeah charged by two is "especially ... exciting!" Been there done that worked out fine, with an assistant from Rocky that time ... Daddy down situation??? 

And yep the approach you used is what I did for many, many years and with great success! And if I had "time," I'd tell my dogs "Stay" and I'd step in front of them and take point! 

But I don't know, I'm constantly scanning and taking precautions?? And still get taken by surprise?? I had "Queenie" to the left (street side) to screen here from all the short front fences with dogs behind them. And this time the Fox Terrier, Dachshund, came from "across the street??" Ticked me off and overlooked him at first because I was not looking that low??? But pound for pound "Queenie" would have been out of her league as she is not a fighter! But next best thing "automatic stop!I stop she stops! Let "Daddy deal with this crap!"

It was a big hit of adrenaline, and no time to think?? But stick in hand, it came down in an instant in front of that tool of a dog (nothing to think about!! And I observed the same look of utter "bewilderment" that I observed in the "lab gone wild" situation with Rocky, ie where the heck that come from??? :surprise:

The dog was so confused, that I actually just held station and waited for the owner to retrieve him! He was just stalled in the middle of the street! I can't go forward and I don't remember where I came from (the dog)??? Total confusion on the dogs part?? I'd have thought, he'd have just instantly headed back towards home, but he appeared to be lost in the middle of the street?? So I waited for the owner to retrieve him. Freaking tools (owner and dog) and that time I never said a word to the owner! 

They best secure their fence better because now they "KNOW" that dog can get out!! At any rate *,were you taken by surprise or did you see them coming???* And as for no recall on the owner's part??? I'm gonna guess, that if a dog is charging other people's dogs?? "No recall" is a given, well trained dogs don't do that crap! That's just an assumption on my part as I've had at least 20 opportunities, to ask "have you actually tried to train your dog" ... but you know, I'm not in the mood to ask questions after having to deal with some tools dog! 

And again, glad it worked out fine for you guys and as the saying goes "Stay Safe Out There."


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## bkernan

Do people here typically say something to the owners of *particularly* bad off leash or out of control dogs? Like the one who just let go of her golden retriever 15 ft from Hudson and I - I didn’t end up saying anything but “umm”. Would love to hear if there’s any productive dialogue that’s ever happened. The few times I’ve said something it’s always been a fight and I just feel like these people and their untrained dogs are clones of one another. 

Anyways, just wondering!


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## Bentwings1

Ive already posted my "two cents worth" so no need to go beyond that. Just be prepared for the worst case all the time.

Here is some statistics I dug up off the internet:

Dog training

The statistic depicts the number of dogs in the United States from 2000 to 2017. In 2017, a total of about 89.7 million dogs lived in households in the United States as pets. In comparison, some 68 million dogs were owned in the United States in 2000.

According to a recent American Pet Product Association National Pet Owners Survey, four percent of the dogs in the U.S. take a training class.Feb 5, 2015

A point here is the number who have at least taken some training classes. That doesn't mean they have followed through with further training of their dog. I commend everyone who has at least taken the initiative to learn about their dog. An 8 week course isn't going to produce much beyond a sit, down, stand and some form of heel and a weak recall. Nevertheless it's a start. 

Notice the growth in 17 years. Very fast.


So now when we look at statistics, your chances of running into basic trained dogs anywhere is pretty slim. A well trained dog is akin to a major lottery win. Roughly pure luck. So this further reinforces my opinion of be prepared for a worst case when it comes to dog encounters.


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## Trix

bkernan said:


> Do people here typically say something to the owners of *particularly* bad off leash or out of control dogs? Like the one who just let go of her golden retriever 15 ft from Hudson and I - I didn’t end up saying anything but “umm”. Would love to hear if there’s any productive dialogue that’s ever happened. The few times I’ve said something it’s always been a fight and I just feel like these people and their untrained dogs are clones of one another.
> 
> Anyways, just wondering!




When it happened to me yesterday, the lady was apologizing profusely and very embarrassed and apologetic. I was initially concerned of protecting my wife and dog, and then concerned with leaving the area. Her apologizing was appreciated - looking at some of the comments in this thread, if they would’ve somehow yelled at me, that wouldn’t have gone over well lol. 

Personally, in that moment, if I decided to have any dialogue it would be very one sided. If anyone tried to justify their actions past apologizing, that would not be good. I’m young, I wrestled for 12 years, and I’ve put on 40 lbs of muscle since high school and I’m in the best shape ever. I will more than hold my own physically whenever needed and I’m probably a bit intimidating in that aspect. What scares me is if my 120 lb wife was in that situation. 

To be honest - in a sense I’m glad I was able to control myself as well as I did. Had that dog of bit my wife, my dog (more aggressively than it did), or myself, I don’t know that I’d be able to think clear headed enough to stay in a defensive mode vs seriously injuring/killing that dog. It’s sad because I’m sure that dogs behavior is due to its owners shortcomings, but I refuse to let a person or animal hurt myself or my family. 

As I was kicking that dog away, it reminded me of times at dog parks in the past where that aggressive barking dog runs up to yours and just barks it’s head off non stop and their owner does nothing, and you want more than anything to correct their dog but barely restrain yourself lol. 

It’s sad as I was kick/pushing her dog away, I was concerned about not making her mad for “hurting” her dog. I think she may not of cared though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chip18

bkernan said:


> Do people here typically say something to the owners of *particularly* bad off leash or out of control dogs? Like the one who just let go of her golden retriever 15 ft from Hudson and I - I didn’t end up saying anything but “umm”. Would love to hear if there’s any productive dialogue that’s ever happened. The few times I’ve said something it’s always been a fight and I just feel like these people and their untrained dogs are clones of one another.
> 
> Anyways, just wondering!


Well the lady with the Golden, that just let him go??? I have to say ... I have not seen that before?? And being on the other end, the phrase that comes to mind for me would be uh "speechless???" 

A leash only gives the "appearance of control??" One still has to "read the dog and observe the dog's behaviour." If the dog is straining, or staring hard at one's dog??? It's best to just stay clear. Of course Golden lady ... took that choice away from you. But it sounds like it still worked out well??

As for me, if a dog charges mine??? Then we are already off to a bad start! I will stop that dog first. And as long as no contact is made, it's best for all that I simply say, "Train Your dog!" Most people say at least "Sorry." 

Dachshund/Fox Terrier lady did not say anything?? And neither did I, but her dog was "stalled and confused" in the middle of the street?? So I just waited until he was safe and then we were on our way. Mad lab lady got a "No Problem" as a reply from me. As in that encounter I felt it was not her fault ... they had company and someone "Let the Dog out???"

But she chased her dog and got, three feet into a snarling, barking, ticked off, Rocky's face as I repeated "STAY!" To retrieve her dog after I "stick stopped," him! I was impressed she got off with a "No Problem" and we were on our way. 

I'm not real big on teachable moments under "charging dog encounters." I just want to get myself and my dogs outta there as soon as the situation is defused, as it were. No dogs harmed, so nothing to apologize for. 

Hopefully, they will take an encounter with me and my dogs as a "teachable moment??" And take active steps to actually train their dogs??? But if no changes are made, (in their dog's behaviour) the next time, that crap happens ... they and their dog just might screw with the wrong dog and owner???


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## Kyrielle

bkernan said:


> Do people here typically say something to the owners of *particularly* bad off leash or out of control dogs? Like the one who just let go of her golden retriever 15 ft from Hudson and I - I didn’t end up saying anything but “umm”. Would love to hear if there’s any productive dialogue that’s ever happened. The few times I’ve said something it’s always been a fight and I just feel like these people and their untrained dogs are clones of one another.
> 
> Anyways, just wondering!


Well, you know what I've said already. I just accept people's apology and move on. I might not say anything, but I know the look on my face is one of mild annoyance. As long as I let it go quickly, my dog does, too. I was taught as a child to forgive people for their transgressions. That doesn't mean I'll let them walk all over me, but I'm not going to get snippy and just cause more consternation. People are good at reading body language, and looking annoyed is enough to make people feel embarrassed enough about their dog that they'll apologize.

It's a case of picking your battles. There's no point in getting in a fight with some stranger about their dog over garden-variety rudeness.

Beyond garden-variety rudeness, as in outright aggression and actual physical damage, I'd say anything goes. That's not a good time to be chill and live and let live. That's a good battle to fight.


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## Sabis mom

I have been know to offer people leashes, or offer to show them how they work.
If the dog makes contact with mine, polite goes out the window. I will tell them exactly what I think. 
I remember one obnoxious Lab that Sabi held on the ground, with her foot, while it's useless owner came running across the park. As he leashed the clearly untrained aggressor I advised him that if I saw it loose again I would report him. And that in the future I would use any means necessary to defend my dogs. He lived facing the area and was fond of just letting his dog out to run, that particular day it saw Shadow playing on her long line but failed to see Momma Bear walking beside me. It had long since determined it needed to give Sabs a wide berth. It was only days later that it attacked the lovely old Boxer and was picked up by AC.
Fortunately the Boxer recovered and continued her daily meanderings with her owners for another year or two unmolested.


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## bkernan

Sabis mom said:


> I have been know to offer people leashes, or offer to show them how they work.
> If the dog makes contact with mine, polite goes out the window. I will tell them exactly what I think.
> I remember one obnoxious Lab that Sabi held on the ground, with her foot, while it's useless owner came running across the park. As he leashed the clearly untrained aggressor I advised him that if I saw it loose again I would report him. And that in the future I would use any means necessary to defend my dogs. He lived facing the area and was fond of just letting his dog out to run, that particular day it saw Shadow playing on her long line but failed to see Momma Bear walking beside me. It had long since determined it needed to give Sabs a wide berth. It was only days later that it attacked the lovely old Boxer and was picked up by AC.
> Fortunately the Boxer recovered and continued her daily meanderings with her owners for another year or two unmolested.


I'm just imagining you with your GSD next to you offering to show one of these idiotic dog owners in NYC how to use a leash and it's making me laugh out loud! :grin2:

Thank you for that - honestly think it's a great way tog et the point across!! "It appears you don't know how to use that leash draped over your shoulder.. well please let me know show you!" LOL i love it!


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## Sabis mom

bkernan said:


> I'm just imagining you with your GSD next to you offering to show one of these idiotic dog owners in NYC how to use a leash and it's making me laugh out loud! :grin2:
> 
> Thank you for that - honestly think it's a great way tog et the point across!! "It appears you don't know how to use that leash draped over your shoulder.. well please let me know show you!" LOL i love it!


Well if that makes you laugh, you would pee your pants when I show other drivers how signal lights work.

Usually the leash thing goes something like, " Hi so I noticed you seem confused by that strap looking thing in your hand. It's called a leash. So see this little clip thing? If you take a look at your dogs collar you will notice this little ring on it. You just depress this thing with your thumb and look! It slips right on this ring. If you do that you can actually keep your dog with you. Neat huh?"


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## Chip18

KaiserAus said:


> We were charged again last night by two off leash dogs who appeared to have zero recall... I clapped my hands, stamped my feet and shouted "hey" in their faces - they stopped dead in their tracks and watched us walk past - their owner calling their names uselessly. But at least it didn't turn into a negative experience for my boy.


Hmm ... I'd not heard of the hand clap thing before?? But I'm gonna say that a part of the reason the "Walking Stick" seems to be so effective is the loud, "Thwack" sound it makes when I slam it, in front of charging dogs??? The one I use is pretty light ... I'm impressed that I have not broken it in half, thus far.


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## KaiserAus

Chip18 said:


> Hmm ... I'd not heard of the hand clap thing before?? But I'm gonna say that a part of the reason the "Walking Stick" seems to be so effective is the loud, "Thwack" sound it makes when I slam it, in front of charging dogs??? The one I use is pretty light ... I'm impressed that I have not broken it in half, thus far.


I just wanted to be loud and intimidating and seeing as I didn't take my stick with me, I used what I had at hand :grin2::grin2::grin2:


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## Chip18

KaiserAus said:


> I just wanted to be loud and intimidating and seeing as I didn't take my stick with me, I used what* I had at hand* :grin2::grin2::grin2:


At hand, LOL you forgot to say "no pun intended." >

So you have a Stick always??? Has it come into play for you ... yet??? I have found it a very effective tool thus far and it seems to be most effective at the very last second when dogs are "Danger Close" as it were. IE, still "charging and inside" of three feet of my dog! It can be deployed, with astonishing speed?? Even I am impressed, I can stop a chargee with my stick ... faster than I can say "Go Home!" Danger close as it were.


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## car2ner

Sabis mom said:


> Well if that makes you laugh, you would pee your pants when I show other drivers how signal lights work.
> 
> Usually the leash thing goes something like, " Hi so I noticed you seem confused by that strap looking thing in your hand. It's called a leash. So see this little clip thing? If you take a look at your dogs collar you will notice this little ring on it. You just depress this thing with your thumb and look! It slips right on this ring. If you do that you can actually keep your dog with you. Neat huh?"


It was a busy day at the park, many many dogs in the dog park and we were walking in the actual sport park, 4 people, 4 dogs all on leash. Not too far outside of the dog park were two beautiful GSDs laying down side by side with the owner proudly nearby and leashes draped over his shoulder...not attached to the dogs. Since the dogs didn't get up I ignored him but my husband went over to give him a talking to. His dogs were on e-collars and under control so he was still within his legal rights. I didn't hear the entire conversation but I did see the man send one of his dogs for a go-out. It went a few yards away with a "OK boss, not sure why but I'll do it" kinda posture. Then the man gave the recall command, I assume, because his dog returned to him really really slowly, head down. It was a sad thing to see. 

I bring my dogs to the same park when it is not busy, use a long line and when I do recall they come bouncing back. I'm not anti e-collar but it seems to me he might not be doing it right. But that is me judging a stranger from a distance. I have no idea why this man was hanging out outside of a busy dog park with his dogs off leash.


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## Bentwings1

You think your "thunder whackee" stops wild dogs, you should see the brakes applied when I break out the stun flashlight. It's got about an inch and a half round contact area that lights up so crackly and noisy that even dr. Frankenstein himself would flee. The last thing you want to do is test it on yourself. LOL


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## CometDog

I didn't read all the posts so forgive me if this aspect was covered, but I put people with out of control dogs on flexileads at an even higher level of dog owner ineptness than the "shouldn't be off lead" crowd. 

I was once walking my dog Alvin, with my disabled toddler in a stroller, with Alvin on lead in a PERFECT heal. Well, enter the 90 pounds mouth breathing Labradoodle on a 25ft Flexilead. Alvin just went into a sit, as the Labradoodle did maniacal laps around us with an apparently invisible playmate because none of us was so much as cracking a smile. The owner was ineffective and actually thought it was cute/funny. The flexi was tight around my legs and was starting to tip my sons stroller, at which point the Labraowner realized not so funny. One more turn and now the flexi was across my sons chin. The Ownerdoodle was merely trying to tell his dog to sit (was ignored) and was trying to free the line from the stroller. Much to his horror I simply grabbed his dogs collar and took it off, with the owner saying "don't do that he will run away". Well, then he shouldn't be on a 25ft lead then, should he? I just yelled "he is garroting my baby" Once the dog was off the lead and dashing across the park (sorry, not sorry), I was able to untangle the mess and go. My dog stayed in a confused and whining sit the whole time. 

I just don't understand how people rationalize these things in their head? It seems some people think that as long as their dog is friendly, it is ok to be off lead even if they are not perfect on recall. So many times I have had off lead dogs approach us with the owner yelling "it's ok he is friendly". If I am with a dog I usually yell back " unfortunately he is not" about my dog.


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## Nurse Bishop

I have backup mace canister on my key ring.


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## Chip18

Bentwings1 said:


> You think your "thunder whackee" stops wild dogs, you should see the brakes applied when I break out the stun flashlight. It's got about an inch and a half round contact area that lights up so crackly and noisy that even dr. Frankenstein himself would flee. The last thing you want to do is test it on yourself. LOL


Well I'm keeping my stick. >

But what is this crackly flashlight of which you speak??? Do you have a link and is it effective during daylight????


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## bkernan

CometDog said:


> I didn't read all the posts so forgive me if this aspect was covered, but I put people with out of control dogs on flexileads at an even higher level of dog owner ineptness than the "shouldn't be off lead" crowd.
> 
> I was once walking my dog Alvin, with my disabled toddler in a stroller, with Alvin on lead in a PERFECT heal. Well, enter the 90 pounds mouth breathing Labradoodle on a 25ft Flexilead. Alvin just went into a sit, as the Labradoodle did maniacal laps around us with an apparently invisible playmate because none of us was so much as cracking a smile. The owner was ineffective and actually thought it was cute/funny. The flexi was tight around my legs and was starting to tip my sons stroller, at which point the Labraowner realized not so funny. One more turn and now the flexi was across my sons chin. The Ownerdoodle was merely trying to tell his dog to sit (was ignored) and was trying to free the line from the stroller. Much to his horror I simply grabbed his dogs collar and took it off, with the owner saying "don't do that he will run away". Well, then he shouldn't be on a 25ft lead then, should he? I just yelled "he is garroting my baby" Once the dog was off the lead and dashing across the park (sorry, not sorry), I was able to untangle the mess and go. My dog stayed in a confused and whining sit the whole time.
> 
> I just don't understand how people rationalize these things in their head? It seems some people think that as long as their dog is friendly, it is ok to be off lead even if they are not perfect on recall. So many times I have had off lead dogs approach us with the owner yelling "it's ok he is friendly". If I am with a dog I usually yell back " unfortunately he is not" about my dog.


I am crying laughing at "Ownerdoodle" HAHAHAHA omg that is the best. :grin2:

In all seriousness I am sorry that happened (I'm sure it wasn't the only time) and have to agree that entire scenario happens to Hudson and I quite frequently. Hudson is only 10 months and we've worked through some standard issues encountering dogs on leash (I don't blame him, as you mentioned - most are untrained, illmannered and out of controodle!!!!) and I have had to keep myself from absolutely losing my mind at these people when their dog aggressively lunges at us... or runs up to Hudson who is not interested... or attacks us because they're off leash and are just genuinely terribly trained/obnoxious dogs.

If I do inquire as to what the person is thinking by allowing that behavior the reaction from the dog owners themselves run an emotional spectrum so vast it's almost incomprehensible. A few of my favorites.. 
"You could at least have a sense of humor, you clearly care only about yourself and your dog!" as a woman's adolescent Bernese mountain beast wrapped me and Hudson in our leash as Hudson was simply doing evasive maneuvers, and spilled my starbucks down the front of my suit,
"My dog has never done this before lady (yes that "lady" was riddled with attitude), so your dog must have started the altercation!" As a woman was pulling her seemingly rabid jack russell to the dog park gate after entering and coming upon Hudson and I - the only two people there - and having her dog flat out attack Hudson. 
"HOW DARE YOU BRING YOUR VICIOUS DOG OUT ON A PUBLIC STREET, THERE ARE CHILDREN HERE" - when Hudson barked at a cow of a ridgeback barreling towards us on a crowded street.

Basically.. I feel your pain. ugh!


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## CometDog

Out of controodle lololol! This could go on and on lol


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## Bentwings1

Somebody asked about my “thunder stick”. The sound and flash from this will stop most dogs in their tracks. I surely will not try it on my dog or me! I tried to post a video but it didn’t work so here is a screen shot. That’s not the flashlight either!

It doesn’t have penetrating points like some but the spark will easily jump through the fur on contact. This one has mass too so it’s a good striker in your fist too.

Let me just say a couple things about self defense and dog attacks.
First at least have a plan of action. A,B, and C
These will all fail in the first couple seconds of an event.
Plan D then takes over. This is a fight to the finish. You will probably get hurt...maybe seriously, but you must battle until you have absolute control.

Dog events like this happen very quickly and often unexpected. Dogs can easily run 30 feet per second. A dog rushing you from 100 feet will be there in three seconds. You think you will have plenty of time to react? Haha it will take you that long just to come to the conclusion that the problem has gone ballistic. Gonna dig you pepperspray out of your pocket...never happen. Stun light like mine...nope. Plan D is now in effect. 

Exactly this happen to us last week at night. 6” of fresh snow on the ground made it very slippery. A reactive dog on a stupid flex leash got away from the owner and came after my dog. The other dog was dragging the flex leash fully extended. I didn’t see it in the soft snow. I had my dog on a 6’ leash. I stepped into the other dog’s path and deflected him. He ran around us and tangled my legs up in the cord. It was very slippery and I went down. I grabbed the other dog by a foot and tried to slug him but you just can’t do much on the ground with your legs tied up. I hit hard but not enough. I did get my other arm under his neck and rolled over him. I had a good strangle hold but he had Sam’s harness caught in his mouth. I squeezed as hard as I could, he came loose and I finally managed to stand with this struggling 60 pound dog. Needless to say, the Adrenalin was flowing by this time. The dog finally weakened so I threw him out in the street. Meantime the owner was frozen in place like an ice sculpture. She had not said a single word. In these situations, it is common for person to simply give up and not react at all. It’s a mental and physical reaction. She finally unlocked and gathered he dog and leash up. “Im sorry, the dog pulled the handle out of my hand”. Sorry doesn’t get it. I’m 75 years old and don’t need to be knocked down and wrestling with unruly dogs. 

I don’t like to hurt dogs and I probably could have seriously hurt this one. There was no need to be vicious even though I was furious. Fortunately my dog was uninjured and remained in my control. 

I think it is good that people come to these forums for help. At least they recognize that there is a problem with their dog or themselves...or both. The vast majority of dog owners have no idea of the problems they can cause or how to deal with dog situations.


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