# German Shepherd Protects Home from Intruder



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

http://ktla.com/2017/08/14/family-c...d-on-floors-walls-after-dog-attacks-intruder/


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

There's a dark side to dogs doing this celebration of heroic dogs that people sometimes don't know about -- it happened to the daughter of an acquaintance. Her dog tried to protect the home. It got several good bites on the burglar....and then the burglar beat the living crap out of the dog with a pipe or flashlight, breaking the dog's jaw in two places, breaking many ribs, destroying an eye, and leaving it near-death in a bloody heap for a loving owner to come home to. Can you imagine? 

Her dog lived, as she was home soon and rushed it to the emergency vet, where it faced lots of surgeries and a long stay in trauma care. She would have rather had burglars take anything in her house instead of doing this to her beloved dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Magwart- you make a good point. I'm not sure I want to imagine. I remember hearing on this forum about the white german shepherd getting shot in a home burglary in the bath tub. Also the time the retired police officer gsd partner getting shot multiple time by home intruders. The Doberman that was protecting his home when he was shot and owner killed. I would think many dogs are killed or maimed that don't even pose a threat to. Any intruder who continues to break into a house with a very large barking dog such as German shepherd means to do serious harm in my mind. That is why I posted this it is so nice when the dog wins and the family that lived in this house are all safe.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I agree with Jenny720. If an intruder comes in despite the barking and noise of a large dog, ill will is intended no matter the cost... Ideally, the dogs let you know someone is there, 911 is called and comes BEFORE any form of engagement from any party is needed. That way dog and humans work in conjunction to keep everyone safe and bad guys in jail...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes always good to keep those cell phones charged.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Magwart said:


> There's a dark side to dogs doing this celebration of heroic dogs that people sometimes don't know about -- it happened to the daughter of an acquaintance. Her dog tried to protect the home. It got several good bites on the burglar....and then the burglar beat the living crap out of the dog with a pipe or flashlight, breaking the dog's jaw in two places, breaking many ribs, destroying an eye, and leaving it near-death in a bloody heap for a loving owner to come home to. Can you imagine?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So sorry to hear about your friends aquaintence dog and they had to go through such a nightmare. l.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

My uncle told me this story about a former neighbor of his. The lady had gone to the grocery and when she returned and started carrying bags into her house, a man who had broken in and was hiding, jumped out and grabbed her from behind. In the tussle, she managed to scream, and the dog, a German Shepherd, barreled through a sliding glass door and bit the assailant on his back as he turned to run. The bite did something to this guy's spine and the last my uncle heard, he was suing for damages , if you can believe it.

I, also, would rather lose any possessions I have than to lose my boy. If someone was breaking in with other things in mind, my hope is that having a German Shepherd might make him think twice, that Newlie would alert to buy me some time, and worst come to worst, that we could operate as a team to repel or neutralize the threat.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I kind of feel conflicted about it...I don't want my dogs to get hurt protecting me any more than I want my husband to get hurt protecting me and yet they would both put themselves between me and harm...I love them both for the intention. i'd do anything in my power to keep myself and all of my loved ones safe.

If the worst happened here, it would be me trying to protect them and them trying to protect me. 

I kennel them when I am not home. I absolutely don't want them getting involved in anything over "stuff", although I doubt either would do anything if they were home alone. 

If anyone cracked a door intending to enter uninvited they would see two big dogs barking aggressively. Hopefully that would buy me enough time to get the gun, and then I could protect all of us. That is my best plan. Because anyone who would try to force their way in past the dogs is almost certainly here for the most sinister reason and the gun is warranted.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Growing up my best friend growing up lived in a high ranch. During the night when the entire family was sleeping, the lower level of the house the window was broken into. My friends dad heard a man screaming and her dad ran downstairs to find a man half through his window and his dog attacking him. The guy took off. After hearing this and knowing their dog well was one reason I wanted to own a german shepherd.

Max has a strong protection instinct. I do know he would do more then bark, how much more to extent of damage I don't know. Luna I'm not sure if she would do more then just bark. Always hearing about a home invasion. I still do feel better having them around when things go bump in the night even though I would keep them safe.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm struggling with this question now as well. I have been considering having my pup evaluated and trained for PP. On one hand I'm with you all in thinking that my dog is more valuable to me as a friend and companion, than my stuff. One the other hand, I don't know if she would attack an intruder, but her demeanor suggests she very well might. And if she did, it would be better for her to have some practice beforehand. I'd also like to be able to stop and/or recall her if she were ever to try biting someone for any reason, and PP training would give us both more control. But she's so sweet now, I don't want to have her personality change due to this training, and I'm afraid it might. I know some here have had their dogs trained for PP, did it alter their personality?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm struggling with this question now as well. I have been considering having my pup evaluated and trained for PP. On one hand I'm with you all in thinking that my dog is more valuable to me as a friend and companion, than my stuff. One the other hand, I don't know if she would attack an intruder, but her demeanor suggests she very well might. And if she did, it would be better for her to have some practice beforehand. I'd also like to be able to stop and/or recall her if she were ever to try biting someone for any reason, and PP training would give us both more control. But she's so sweet now, I don't want to have her personality change due to this training, and I'm afraid it might. I know some here have had their dogs trained for PP, did it alter their personality?



If the dog was a stable dog and confident dog and trained correctly by a good trainer. The dog's personality should not change. The training be a confident builder, the dog would have better grips and give you more control through advanced training. There are many more experienced people on here that can answer that though.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I have three dogs in my home. A 67 lb 2 yr old German Shepherd / golden retriever mix, a 78 lb 15 month old German Shepherd male, and a 75 lb 16 month old German Shepherd female. I know for a fact that these dogs bark like maniacs when someone pulls up. Would they attack an intruder possibly. Would I want them too? If my son or wife were home alone or together then yes. If it was just the dogs home by themselves I still say yes. Reason being, I have stuff in my home that has been passed down that is irreplaceable. I also think that having 3 dogs stacks the odds in their favor. I agree that if someone hears a large dog barking aggressively and still enters then there is a good Chance that harm will befall that dog regardless.. May as well give it their best fight.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I'd rather have them take all my belongings than putting my dog in danger. But I guess that's just what I do when I leave her losse in the house. Never know what the right thing to do is.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Mmmmm had this happen to a neighbor....home burglarized both dogs shot and killed. 
Imho shepherd type dogs not the best for home defense.... The mastiff breeds are the serious guard dogs. Just flat out built for damage. Gsd not so much. 
But nothing stops a bullet. 
Anyone who is prepared to invade a home with any type of big dog probably needs to be shot. 
I mainly just expect my dogs now to sound the alarm since their hearing is better than mine, and if need be provide a distraction while I deal with the intruder. 
Everyone should have a plan for these things....it happens alot.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Plus I'm just not too sure most gsds could actually win a fight with a determined attacker....... They're tough but not really put together for taking hard abuse such as a pipe upside the head. Wouldnt depend on it anyway. Having owned both I would much rather take my chances tangling with a gsd than a bullmastiff. Hit a mastiff breed over the head with a 2x4 and they might not even notice it when they're really worked up. 
I think at best most gsd really are better as a distraction to buy time rather than being depended on to protect.
And like everyone has stated....you get these guarding/working breeds with protection in mind, and then you just love them too much to put them in harms way


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

A determined home invader is one thing, but I do want my dog, I want to feel confident my dog, will defend me against an assailant in the park or out on a walk or in any setting other than a home invasion. I'm totally with the "just gimme time to lock and load" group at home, that's how we roll. But if someone is messing with you in a public space, I really do want my dog to let them know there will be consequences. Lots of dogs wouldn't, no matter how bad they sound when there's a fence between them and the target. And that is the ONLY reason I would consider PP training for my dog.

It's a heart wrenching decision.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

And even more, I want to be confident in a public situation that my dog could/would threaten without follow through. And I'm leaning toward the PP training to be the only way I'll have any assurance of that. Thought from others on this would be greatly appreciated...


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I think if you want a PP dog then PP training would be a must. I was taking my dog to a PP trainer before I started SCH. But, then I decided I wanted to do sport instead of PP. But, I carry everywhere I am. Including in my home. So I didn't really need a dog to try defend me. The guy I was going to was pretty adamant about keeping up with training and he didn't want a lot of silly tricks or nonsense to get in the way of PP training. If the dog was a PP dog then it isn't everyone's friend doing parlor tricks. It's job was to observe and if needed take action. Not be a clown. My girl could have gone either way PP or sport. Sport seemed to offer a lot more fun for her and myself. I also like to be pretty hands on with my dogs training. So sport it is. 
If PP is something you're interested in Check it out. Just screen your trainer pretty serious. The wrong trainer can ruin a young dog, or just scam you into thinking you have a PP trained dog who would turn and run at go time.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I agree with what cdwoodcox said, but you also need to evaluate your dog. If your dog is not a good prospect for it, then you only end up with a dog that is basically a loaded pistol with the safety off, more a liability than protection. It's one of the reasons that going only to someone who is honest enough and experienced enough to know if your dog should be trained as a PP and can do it correctly if it is.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Deb said:


> I agree with what cdwoodcox said, but you also need to evaluate your dog. If your dog is not a good prospect for it, then you only end up with a dog that is basically a loaded pistol with the safety off, more a liability than protection. It's one of the reasons that going only to someone who is honest enough and experienced enough to know if your dog should be trained as a PP and can do it correctly if it is.


 we were talking at club a while back about weak sport dogs being trained for protection work strictly in defense. They knew of multiple dogs who had to be put down. They basically taught the dogs that anytime they perceive fear to bite and whatever they were afraid of would retreat. I would imagine this would be magnified in a dog trained to be civil, or a man biter compared to biting a sleeve.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I just spent hours last night discussing this with a K9 trainer friend. My dog is awesome, and shows many of the traits needed to be a great K9 or PPD animal. The real question is, should I. Frankly I'm torn, and so is my friend. She has the potential, my dog, but she is also one of the friendliest, and most stable dogs I have ever known. And she would likely change after receiving PPD training. How, nobody knows. But the last thing I want is for my friendly, loving dog to become all business. I love her just as she is! But I also worry that her attitude would lead her to attack if she perceived a threat...which to me means I need to be able to control her under those circumstances. It's a very tough decision to make.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

If you're not fully committed to it, I wouldn't do it. It's not something to start and then not finish if you find you don't enjoy it. JMPO


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Tim s adams- best to have some good recommendations of some trainers you can ask these questions to if moving forward and alot depends on the dog. It is a personal decision. I owned a german shepherd he was protection trained we got him when he was already trained at two years old. He was a intense serious dog but he was fun to. I really only took him out to have fun I'm sure we softened him up a bit. Deep down his puppy side still existed. He never reacted to non threat and wAs dog I can take anywhere. Incredibly obedient. He did not seem to acknowledge people at all and did not seem to be concerned about anyone unless he needed to be.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Have you thought about SCH? Get the dog a 1 then if you wanted to transgress over to PP then make the switch. Or PSA I love SCH but I do wish sometimes that it wasn't so much obedience and routine. I wish we had a PSA club somewhere close.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

I'm still of the opinion that even out on the street, trail whatever, I still wouldnt depend on my gsd to save my a%% if attacked. I'd still want the dog to distract while I either ran away or dealt with person myself. More of a team effort.... Live in an area where I've personally seen too many of these type dogs take a hard kick or whack to the head with a wooden handle turn tail and run. 
If your dog has the instinct for it itll try to protect you with or without training.... So the training gives the dog practice with specifically dealing with a human attacker. Better than nothing. And it gives you more control over the dog in that situation I'm told.?
I dont know, I never really understood why a gsd is considered a really good ppd. 
Compared to the other breeds that were designed specifically as protection and guard dogs, the gsd doesnt have the same weaponry or ability to take the abuse. 
Its great that our gsds have our backs when needed though. Its awesome to have dogs that can do basically anything we want them to and help us protect ourselves too!
What about legal consequences after a dog protects? Thats not something that really been brought up. In the self defence community legal consequences and staying within legal boundaries in a self protection situation are big things to discuss. Would any of this apply to ppd?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

ONe of my professors in university owned a Sheltie. His property backed onto a ravine. His house was the only one on that street that hadn't been broken into.

Never underestimate the value of a barking dog as a deterrent!


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

"Never underestimate the value of a barking dog as a deterrent!"

Yes, and as a police officer told me years ago after someone broke into my apartment, there is sort of a primal fear that most people have about being bitten, even by a smaller dog.

Also, most crime is opportunistic. If they have reason to believe that a house or person would not be an easy target, most of them would rather roll on down the road and find one that is.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Sunsilver said:


> ONe of my professors in university owned a Sheltie. His property backed onto a ravine. His house was the only one on that street that hadn't been broken into.
> 
> Never underestimate the value of a barking dog as a deterrent!


I'm very rural but my house has been known for years as the house with all the dogs and cars. LOL, I have three sons and they were friends with a company from a military post and often the whole company spent the weekend at my house, my 'adopted' sons, so yeah, I had a parking lot, not a driveway. Every time one of my adopted sons brought a new friend with them that they didn't know well they introduced the friend to Shiloh, my Doberman, who was known to grip and hold the arms of anyone trying to come onto my property after the sun went down. During the day she was fine, but night was guard duty time. Self taught, she did it on her own.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

Hineni7 said:


> I agree with Jenny720. If an intruder comes in despite the barking and noise of a large dog, ill will is intended no matter the cost... Ideally, the dogs let you know someone is there, 911 is called and comes BEFORE any form of engagement from any party is needed. That way dog and humans work in conjunction to keep everyone safe and bad guys in jail...


Absolutely! A dog is a minor speedbump for an armed home invasion. If your door is kicked in all bets are off. Somebody is going to be hurt or die. You, your gsd or the invaders. Hopefully your GSD has given you enough of a heads up to allow you to defend yourself. 

I have walked in on a burglary in progress before and that was a mortality reality check.

Just a few weeks ago Ranger let me know that the local meth head was snooping around my house at night. Thats what I want is just a warning.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

I just want my dogs barking to be a deterrent/ warning, beyond that there is nothing in my house that I value more highly than my family or my dog. If we are all out, I do not want my dog to risk her life for my laptop etc. I once lived in a row of seven houses and all of them were robbed apart from mine. The police said that was probably because when we were all out , my house was the only one with a very vocal shepherd.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Folks you need to watch these videos. This guy has three in the series. He talks about how even the very best genetic bred dogs without proper protection training will not do much protecting. You will see two of the best but not trained simply run around playing with each other rather than preventing an intrusion. Watch when one of the dogs is cornered. He has almost no avenue of escape. You can clearly see the dog is really worried. He is looking around, hackles up, growling and ready to split the moment there is an opening, then indeed " vamooses".

Yes there was some barking and that's ok, most bad guys will not bothehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3uhJfdFuC2Ir with messing with a big dog but someone very intent on bad things will not be prevented and the dog most likely will get hurt.

I have trained protection dogs and worked with police dogs and even some of the certified dogs were not very good when push came to shove. However even the lesser ones were not afraid to mix it up and at least get one good hit in. The washout rate was almost exactly as this gentleman says.

Just be carefull what you think your dog will do vs reality. Barking is great but battle is not in most dogs.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I do believe it to be true that only a small percentage of dogs are really able to fight a determined intruder and I certainly don't expect much from Newlie whose genetics are unknown and who has never had any training along those lines. But there is another factor that is rarely touched on in these videos and to be honest, I am really not sure that it could be acted in such a way that would be convincing to the dog, even if it was tried. What I am talking about is the terror and screaming and blood of a much-loved owner. Most of these kind of videos that I have seen either show dogs refusing to protect property or maybe having the "victim" do a token yell "Get away from me." There is no smell of real fear because the person is acting and is not afraid. It's the X factor and I don't guess it can really be known what anybody's dog will do unless, God forbid," they are in that situation. It would be dangerous to depend entirely on an unknown factor, better by far to have a backup plan.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

What newlie said is true. I was once called to come pick up a Doberman because the MP that owned it had set the dog up to see if it would protect his wife. The dog jumped around uncertain and confused. I took the dog and worked with him, basic obedience. When we PCS'd a short time later I had to place the dog because he was over protective of me and they had passed a new rule of no Dobermans on military posts. He went to a friend who trained him in security, no problem biting the bad guys at all. But the point is the wife wasn't afraid, she knew it was going to happen, it only confused the dog. 

I had another shepherd many years ago whose genetics I never would have ever expected protection from, but when I was attacked she took the guy down and I had to pull her off him.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My old male who was a white GSD crossed with who knows what (I think), put my father up against a wall one night barking very convincingly. The dog had never met my father. My young step daughter let him in without saying to the dog my code phrase which means it's cool. I was in the bathroom having an allergic reaction to hornet stings and heard this ungodly racket...ran out to find the dog with my father against the wall, eyes black (the dog). He was not playing. 

I grabbed the dog and hauled him in the kitchen and told him to sit and he did but craning around me to keep an eye on my father, still that very hard stare. I re focused him on me, calmed him down, then told him to phrase to go greet and he went up to my father tail wagging, ears back and no more issue ever. He was a great dog...from some ditch in FL.... was not about to let this strange man make himself at home while I was vulnerable and the dog knew it, kids alone in the house while I was running my head under cold water. 

But he didn't do anything rash and haul off and bite him...thankfully my father had the sense to stand still and wait for me to get the dog.

sure miss that dog.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

What Newlie noted is what we worked on very hard. For example an officer in a sweatsuit would be walking with his wife and patrol dog just casually down the street. The easy exerscise was a noisy gun toting confrontation. This is an extremely dangerous situation in real life and as a training exercise. Both the officer and dog need to act correctly and as a team or somebody will get shot or injured. 

The harder exercise is a " soft" confrontation. " give me your money or I'll kill you both" softly spoken. Again it's a very bad situation. The dog is relaxed, the wife is enjoying the walk, the officer is ever aleart as his training requires. At the slightest move of the officer the dog explodes and the officer does his best to disarm the bad guy with out the gun being fired and getting accidentally bitten or scratched by the dog.

These are not beginner exercises. It takes a very good and well trained dog as well as proper handling.

In some cases the dog will aleart by " fear scent" or what ever you want to call it. Other times it happens totally unexpected. Those were the very advanced exercises. Fun yes, very easy way to get injured as it has to be as real as possible.

In some cases we would turn the tables. My own dog handled by someone else would hit me as hard as any other " bad guy". 

Even though we often used rope tugs for rewards, a " bad guy" attempting to distract the dog with a rope tug was an easy target for the dogs.

It's all about training well bred dogs. They become so focused on their work or job that distractions are a waste of time.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

newlie said:


> I do believe it to be true that only a small percentage of dogs are really able to fight a determined intruder and I certainly don't expect much from Newlie whose genetics are unknown and who has never had any training along those lines. But there is another factor that is rarely touched on in these videos and to be honest, I am really not sure that it could be acted in such a way that would be convincing to the dog, even if it was tried. What I am talking about is the terror and screaming and blood of a much-loved owner. Most of these kind of videos that I have seen either show dogs refusing to protect property or maybe having the "victim" do a token yell "Get away from me." There is no smell of real fear because the person is acting and is not afraid. It's the X factor and I don't guess it can really be known what anybody's dog will do unless, God forbid," they are in that situation. It would be dangerous to depend entirely on an unknown factor, better by far to have a backup plan.


Good post Newlie!!


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Bentwings1 said:


> What Newlie noted is what we worked on very hard. For example an officer in a sweatsuit would be walking with his wife and patrol dog just casually down the street. The easy exerscise was a noisy gun toting confrontation. This is an extremely dangerous situation in real life and as a training exercise. Both the officer and dog need to act correctly and as a team or somebody will get shot or injured.
> 
> The harder exercise is a " soft" confrontation. " give me your money or I'll kill you both" softly spoken. Again it's a very bad situation. The dog is relaxed, the wife is enjoying the walk, the officer is ever aleart as his training requires. At the slightest move of the officer the dog explodes and the officer does his best to disarm the bad guy with out the gun being fired and getting accidentally bitten or scratched by the dog.
> 
> ...



I liked almost everything you said, except the part about your own dog being handled by someone else and hitting you as hard as any other.....it makes no sense to ever have someone else handle your dog and have it work on you.

I had to read your post twice to see if I missed something, if I misunderstood it please explain the rationale.

One of the most crucial aspects of training a Police/PP dog is having an assailant on top of you and have your dog released while wearing a muzzle., why? Because most dogs will attack the handler who is underneath the bad guy, it is the natural instinct of most dogs to do this.

I can tell you that most handlers will laugh and say "not my dog, he won't bite me", and yet they will refuse to test their own dog in a muzzle.


This is very important because if you get attacked and you are on the bottom, the last thing you need is your own dog biting you. It is a very easy problem to fix if you know how to do it.

Any trainer who knows anything about this type of work will train their dogs in this scenario so that it never happens on the street.

Professional Police dog and Personal Protection dog trainers test every possible scenario, because until you have tested it you really don't know how the dog will react. If there is a problem, the place to find out is in training, not in the street or your home when it is to late. Problems can be fixed and training should always be ongoing to keep the dog and handlers skills sharp.

We have a saying in our group "Show Me", don't me what your dog can do....just show me.

Slamdunc has several very good video examples of PSDs doing this and I have one as well of my PP dog.



Kim


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Bentwings1, I'm a novice but love reading and learning about everything. It is absolutely clear to me that genetics and training is necessary for police and pp work.

Actually on the flip side, if anyone has a dog with the genetics and suspects through clear reasoning that the dog may possess the temperament to back up the bark with a bite, then they would be wise to train extra hard for absolute verbal command obedience.

That said, could you expand on your statement ..."my own dog handled by someone else would hit me as hard as any other bad guy". 

The reason I'm asking is that I was under the impression that ones personal dog who has been trained for police or pp was instilled with absolute obedience to his/her owner no matter the scenario. 

My question stems from wanting to learn.

Edit: looks like my question has been asked while I was typing. Sorry for the duplicate but will keep it here since my question stems from inexperienced novice eyes.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

The concept of me being the " bad guy" was not my invention by any means. I asked the question in a training seminar because I needed to maintain my dog. Yes it was possible but not recommended. It evolved because I couldn't get qualified help to work as the " bad guy" . It easy to say " oh yeah, I can handle the dog with protective equipment on me" however it quickly becomes a macho thing with no concept of interpreting what the dog needs or is doing. It takes intensive training to learn to handle and give the dog the help and confidence he needs for this work. This is why the "bad guy" is called the " helper" ...he helps the dog learn.

Certainly the dog can scent me but as the dogs get more and more highly trained they become so focused that who the " bad guy" is doesn't matter. They are commanded to do something and they do it.
We used to liken it to playing football. In practice you would tackle your team mate as hard as your opponent in the game. Your team mate would try to evade as he would in the game. If you could not do this and endure it, you sat on the bench. Just as in sports there are some dogs that simply can't do this. It's not really a fault it just means you can't work your dog this way and you need qualified help. 

These dogs are the top tier like the gentleman in the video points out. Few get to experience this level of dog. They are not easy to train physically or mentally on your part. Once trained they are a true joy.

There is lots of obedience training in protection training. Much of it with heavy distraction. Much of it when the dog is in very high drive. The dog must learn to control himself at all times. Something that we could take lessons from.

Muzzle training. Frankly I'm not a fan of it. It's used in protection training to frustrate the dog into building higher drives and nerves. Again some dogs need this to awaken them others respond negatively. Out walking your dog with a muzzle doesn't send very nice signals in my mind.

There are a few dogs that are truly vicious when protection trained. The legal system has a hard time supporting these so most go to the military. There everyone has guns and is out to kill each other so these dogs are another weapon. I didn't work with these guys.

Scenario training was always fun. Safety of the dog, handler, helper and property were always considered in training. There were lots of interesting situations. Women were always good when screaming and hollering was needed.LOL It seemed to excite the dogs easily especially if they were wives or girlfriends.

I'm not involved with protection training any more. I'm too old to be getting knocked about by big dogs and I'm just plain worn out according to the doctors. I practice situational avoidance. I avoid going to suspect areas, drive defensively, don't talk on my phone while driving, stay away from crowds, negotiate rather than argue, eat healthy and play with my dog.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Bentwings1 said:


> The concept of me being the " bad guy" was not my invention by any means. I asked the question in a training seminar because I needed to maintain my dog. Yes it was possible but not recommended. It evolved because I couldn't get qualified help to work as the " bad guy" . It easy to say " oh yeah, I can handle the dog with protective equipment on me" however it quickly becomes a macho thing with no concept of interpreting what the dog needs or is doing. It takes intensive training to learn to handle and give the dog the help and confidence he needs for this work. This is why the "bad guy" is called the " helper" ...he helps the dog learn.
> 
> Certainly the dog can scent me but as the dogs get more and more highly trained they become so focused that who the " bad guy" is doesn't matter. They are commanded to do something and they do it.
> We used to liken it to playing football. In practice you would tackle your team mate as hard as your opponent in the game. Your team mate would try to evade as he would in the game. If you could not do this and endure it, you sat on the bench. Just as in sports there are some dogs that simply can't do this. It's not really a fault it just means you can't work your dog this way and you need qualified help.
> ...



With all due respect, most of what you have said makes no sense , and I have had the pleasure of working with and raising some very serious dogs. Three of which are now Award Winning Police Dogs in Iowa and Colorado. I'm proud to say I played a big role in raising and training with those dogs. And, I have the videos to demonstrate their/our work while they were being raised for a Police Dept. to finish and Certify them.

Because only the Police train Police dogs.

I am always leery of people who post other peoples videos instead of their own, So I will agree to disagree with your observations and rationale. 


And for people wishing to learn about raising a potential Police Dog Candidate or Personal Protection Dog, muzzles should be introduced to the dog as early as possible (as early as 5 weeks of age) and the dog should never associate it with bite work, a muzzle should be no different than a collar to the dog. 

The same theory applies to gunfire, it should never be associated with bite work or a trigger to fight and should be started when they are puppy's. If you have any questions feel free to send me a PM

Have a Good Night.


Mr. Kim Moore
Euphoricfx German Shepherds
Canczech Dogs


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks very much for your in depth explanation. I was able to understand a lot of what you said which is appreciated. With all the technical intricacies of the profession, I can see it as being exhausting at times. I have more questions, I always do so they can wait for another time and perhaps in another thread.

I really like the last few words of your post "negotiate rather than argue, eat healthy and play with my dog." It made me smile.


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