# fonzie bit



## waylon (Aug 24, 2011)

i have a 4 yr old western style shepherd he is a great dog i have had him at my shop has always been great around people and my nieces and nephews cause my shop is at endlaws house recently i have brought him home i have his son there also he has been great got him groomed he did great and they loved him he has done great he is good around my kids and my 2 yr old grandson tonight grandson came over for a spell so fonzie sat and laid at my feet i had ahold of his choker chain to keep him from knocking down the little one my 9 yr old came over and laid down by him on the floor and he went to put his arm around him and out of the blue fonzie jumped up growled and bit him in the head what the heck was that could it have been cause i had ahold of the choker and he felt cornered or should i maybe not have him here around the kids kinda makes me worried hes 145 lbs big boy but he has always been a gentle giant


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Before the crucifixion begins...how often has this dog been around kids in his new home environment? Was the dog chewing a bone or a toy? Is he used to kids approaching him in that manner? Not that I'm making excuses for the dog, because some would say he would be considered dangerous and maybe he is, but is that because of a lack of socialization and/or exercise? Did your grandson scare him? Does the dog have any sore spots(any pain anywhere) that the child might have hit? Did the dog bark, growl and bite intentionally or when he growled and jumped up, did he have his mouth at an angle where as he was growling, him and the child's head met because of the way the child jumped? These are all valid questions that need to be answered to get a better idea of this dogs history and/or temperament.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is not much sympathy here for dogs that bite children. The child in question put his arms around the dog, which can be viewed by the dog as as form of aggression. And having the dog on a short tether, could have heightened the situation, and having a baby there may have made a difference, but your dog did the unthinkable and bit a kid, even worse a family member. So at this point, you probably need to first decide whether the dog was ill or in pain, then you have to decide whether you want to manage this or put the dog down. 

Sorry you are going through this. 

Personally, if my dog bit my nine year old kid, the dog would be take to the vet to be euthenized. I don't think you can trust him to never do that again, and it is impossible to have a kid and a dog and never, ever have them have no chance of contact. How awful for everyone involved.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> There is not much sympathy here for dogs that bite children. The child in question put his arms around the dog, which can be viewed by the dog as as form of aggression. And having the dog on a short tether, could have heightened the situation, and having a baby there may have made a difference, but your dog did the unthinkable and bit a kid, even worse a family member. So at this point, you probably need to first decide whether the dog was ill or in pain, then you have to decide whether you want to manage this or put the dog down.
> 
> Sorry you are going through this.
> 
> Personally, if my dog bit my nine year old kid, the dog would be take to the vet to be euthenized. I don't think you can trust him to never do that again, and it is impossible to have a kid and a dog and never, ever have them have no chance of contact. How awful for everyone involved.


This is a scary situation, but the OP did not ask if the dog should be put to sleep. The options are keeping the dog there and leaning on the fearful side or not having the dog around the kids(either contained or back at the shop) I have had dogs that have bitten once and never did it again. I have had dogs that kids could jump on and they would growl and run the other way, but I have never considered putting a dog to sleep that has bit. A 4 year old dog that has always been a gentle giant deserves more of a chance then some people are willing to give. This same situation happened to a friend of mine last week with a boxer...the dog was sleeping, the little boy went to hug and kiss him good nite like he always does and the dog bit him. They have watched the dog, who at the time seemed startled and not even realizing what he did and the dog is his happy playful self, not so much a growl. The OP is asking for opinions on two options they gave or had in mind, lets not start another debate on whether the dog should be put to sleep or not. Lets try to figure out how to help the OP so they don't run for the hills like the last poster with this situation.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

waylon said:


> i have a 4 yr old western style shepherd


OP, what is a western style shepherd?



llombardo said:


> I have had dogs that have bitten once and never did it again.


And what steps did you take for prevention? Did these dogs bite children?


----------



## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

I crate my Doberman when any kids/babies come to visit because he prefers not to be around them and I don't want to chance a bite. He has never bitten anyone but I choose to play it safe to protect him and anyone else.

People with kids generally let their guard down and put too much trust in their dog. At the end of the day, a dog is still an animal with teeth that does not have the ability to ration. Just because a dog is uncomfortable in certain situations does not mean it deserves to die. It doesn't sound like your dog is human aggressive, if that were the case then he would have outright attacked the kids by now. I don't see an "out of the blue" situation here, I see a dog that would rather have his personal space respected by the wee ones. 

This is a pretty long thread, but the situation is sort of similiar to yours., This is my personal experience with a dog I owned that bit someone in the face who crowded his space. This happened over 2 years ago. If you go to the very end you can see that it has a happy ending.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-big-problem-my-boyfriend-bit-face-chief.html



I also can't not address this...is your GSD seriously 145 pounds, or are you just guesstimating? I know Great Danes who are not even that big. It is not healthy for their structure and organs. GSDs are supposed to be a medium working breed. Does he have a thyroid problem?


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> OP, what is a western style shepherd?
> 
> 
> 
> And what steps did you take for prevention? Did these dogs bite children?


I had one that did bite a child and this was not a GSD and about 2 years old, this was after days and days of a group of kids teasing him, barking at him, just being mean. He had enough one day I was out there with him, I asked them to leave several times--obviously they were playing with the gate because when he jumped on it and it opened. They all ran except one and he knocked her down and was on top of her by the time I got there. I had 5 dogs at the time, all of them got out because of those kids. As I was helping the girl I heard the biggest dog barking and growling as he was chasing the rest of the kids...I immediately brought her to her house where I explained the situation and thankfully the parents understood and there was no further issues. I really didn't worry about him biting again(and I had my own son that was about the same age as these kids), he was wonderful with my son and all of his friends and never even attempted to bite again in the next 12 years. The other one is my older non GSD female, she bit my boyfriend as he tried to man handle her to get her off the bed because she was throwing up She is 7, that is the only time she has ever bitten anyone and hasn't attempted to do so again and its been a couple years.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

To the OP - please read through this site. 
Many dogs do not like being hugged, it's not in their "vocabulary".

Family Paws Dog and Baby Support 

You may indeed need to keep your dog separated from the kids. Please check out the link, it will be very helpful.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> This is a pretty long thread, but the situation is sort of similiar to yours., This is my personal experience with a dog I owned that bit someone in the face who crowded his space. This happened over 2 years ago. If you go to the very end you can see that it has a happy ending.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-big-problem-my-boyfriend-bit-face-chief.html


What a great story Are you guys still together and is he doing well medically?


----------



## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

llombardo said:


> What a great story Are you guys still together and is he doing well medically?


Yep! It will be 8 months tomorrow and his new kidney is working 100%.....and Chief is doing great


----------



## waylon (Aug 24, 2011)

to one of the post he is i guess what there called an old fasion shepherd hair is soft and longer than normal and they are a large breed if you google western style german shepherd you will see them as for him ever biting before he hasnt grandson was out of the room at the time and my 9 year old laid down beside him and just laid his arm on his side and the dog jumped growled and bit him happened so fast i was holding his choker chain no leash i jerked him back but he had already got him he has always been around kids at the shop they get in run and play with him i dont know if he just startled him or if it was he new i had ahold of him by choker and he felt crowded once the boy laid his arm on him not sure we hug him all the time so i dont know we gonna watch and see what happens if i see any type of aggresion again he will go back to the shop he has been at our home for like 2 weeks


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Yep! It will be 8 months tomorrow and his new kidney is working 100%.....and Chief is doing great



"Everything happens for a reason", congrats on EVERYTHING


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

waylon said:


> to one of the post he is i guess what there called an old fasion shepherd hair is soft and longer than normal and they are a large breed if you google western style german shepherd you will see them as for him ever biting before he hasnt grandson was out of the room at the time and my 9 year old laid down beside him and just laid his arm on his side and the dog jumped growled and bit him happened so fast i was holding his choker chain no leash i jerked him back but he had already got him he has always been around kids at the shop they get in run and play with him i dont know if he just startled him or if it was he new i had ahold of him by choker and he felt crowded once the boy laid his arm on him not sure we hug him all the time so i dont know we gonna watch and see what happens if i see any type of aggresion again he will go back to the shop he has been at our home for like 2 weeks


What do you think happened thinking about it now afterwards? How bad was the bite and how does the child feel about the dog?


----------



## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

waylon said:


> to one of the post he is i guess what there called an old fasion shepherd hair is soft and longer than normal and they are a large breed if you google western style german shepherd you will see them as for him ever biting before he hasnt grandson was out of the room at the time and my 9 year old laid down beside him and just laid his arm on his side and the dog jumped growled and bit him happened so fast i was holding his choker chain no leash i jerked him back but he had already got him he has always been around kids at the shop they get in run and play with him i dont know if he just startled him or if it was he new i had ahold of him by choker and he felt crowded once the boy laid his arm on him not sure we hug him all the time so* i dont know we gonna watch and see what happens *if i see any type of aggresion again he will go back to the shop he has been at our home for like 2 weeks




I strongly advise against this and I urge you to contact a professional that can assess the situation, evaluate your dog, and show your family the propery way to manage/work with your dog.

Is he a "guard dog"? It sounds like he lives at the shop?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's next to impossible for us to determine the kind of relationship you have with this dog; although you come looking for advice, we're not the ones to give it.

For instance, I could speculate -


> so fonzie sat and laid at my feet


 he was quite possibly resource guarding _you_, so didn't want the 9yr. old closer to you than he (the dog) was.
Or perhaps the boy sat or pulled on his fur as he sat down and the dog didn't like that.
Or maybe even he's got a sore neck there and the boy touched a sore spot.

You need to get an expert trainer/behaviorist on board so you can work with the dog. 
It's not going to go away and any dog who has laid his teeth on a child once will do it again unless intervention takes place.

For anyone to intervene requires someone in person watching the family dynamics that include the dog.

Or you need to put your dog back at the shop - provided there's no exposure to kids there at the shop, because you now know the dog _will _bite.


----------



## waylon (Aug 24, 2011)

i told fonzie no in a stern voice and and removed him from the room he just broke my boys skin no big gouges or big cuts he plays with this dog all the time here and when he was at shop when i brought him back into room he went right over and licked my boy and sat by him and the next morning my wife let him out of laundry room and he went right over to my son as if he new he had done wrong one thing i have noticed since he has been here its almost like he is sensitive if you scold him he will put his head down and go across room and lay down and stare at you like saying im sorry i just cant believe he done this i believe it was because i had ahold of his choker and in his mind he was protecting me . i had a doberman once that did that to my niece when she was like 8 and prior to he doing it i had told her not to touch his face and i came around the house and she had her hands on both sides of his face and almost nose to nose with him and he bit her he never bit again till the day he passed . but anyway going to keep a very close eye on him i feel like he was warning him i believe that if he really wanted to bite him he would have and it could have been alot worse


----------



## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

It's hard to say what caused it or what you should do when nobody here was there to see exactly what happened. 
I do know that my son and I have always said we share something in common we were both bit by a family dog. I leaned over our family dog we had when I was a kid, he was asleep, I went to hug him good night something I did every night, I startled him and he snaped and got me in the face, wasn't the dogs fault it was mine. 
That dog was with us another 6 years and died of old age never bit again. 
My son was rough housing with our BC the dog was riled up and snaped at him and got him on the lower lip, 5 stitches. To me that's not the dogs fault. Yes we still have the dog and he's never offered to bite again. 
Dogs bite for many different reasons you need to figure out why he bit and take precautions, whatever they need to be, to keep all humans and the dog safe.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Waylon

I do think holding his choker may have had something to do with it -Fonsie may have felt you were worried about something, such as him going by the 2yr old. It's amazing how dogs pick up on our feelings and take them on themselves. 

I'm also not sure - Is Fonsie your dog but you usually keep him only at the shop? I don't really understand why has he has only been at your house for two weeks? 

You witnessed it - would you say he warned and caught your son - or he actually bit your son? Was he trying to get out of way - but couldn't because you were holding him - or not? 
_______________
Sue


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

waylon said:


> i told fonzie no in a stern voice and and removed him from the room he just broke my boys skin no big gouges or big cuts he plays with this dog all the time here and when he was at shop when i brought him back into room he went right over and licked my boy and sat by him and the next morning my wife let him out of laundry room and he went right over to my son as if he new he had done wrong one thing i have noticed since he has been here its almost like he is sensitive if you scold him he will put his head down and go across room and lay down and stare at you like saying im sorry i just cant believe he done this i believe it was because i had ahold of his choker and in his mind he was protecting me . i had a doberman once that did that to my niece when she was like 8 and prior to he doing it i had told her not to touch his face and i came around the house and she had her hands on both sides of his face and almost nose to nose with him and he bit her he never bit again till the day he passed . but anyway going to keep a very close eye on him i feel like he was warning him i believe that if he really wanted to bite him he would have and it could have been alot worse



I would have to say that since this dog has only been in the home for two weeks, its a different environment and just like a puppy he has to get used to a different living arrangement, new surroundings, and a new way of living. I would watch him carefully and learn his body language. He has gone from being a shop dog to a family pet, after 4 years of living one way he has to learn how to change according to the living arrangements. Good Luck.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> i believe it was because i had ahold of his choker and in his mind he was protecting me


No, this is not good. Why would a grown dog feel a 9yr. old child is a threat to himself or the adult?
No dog should "protect" it's owner from a non-threat. 
That child was doing nothing to threaten you or the dog (except the hug, which dogs often don't care for, especially from kids) so there's no reason to bite the child.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Both you and Fonzie should see a good dog trainer who is well versed with aggression issues. The trainer will be able to evaluate your dog to determine if the dog has major issues that might not be fixable or can be managed. He can then work with you and Fonzie and teach you how to train and manage your dog. I don't know that I would put down a dog that lashed out for a hug unless I witnessed it, saw the damage done, understood whether there was or was no provocation, and knew the dog's temperament/upbringing. That said, I have a standing rule with my dog. If he bites and the bite is unjustified (home invasions being one exception), down he goes, but I know his history. 

If you are genuinely interested in keeping your dog, sign up for training classes or private training and be committed to those classes for a long time. Also do medical testing (general, thyroid) to rule out any medical basis for aggression. Before you make this decision, you might want to have discussions with your 9 y/o. Your son has to live with this dog and if he is in fear of the dog, that is absolutely unfair to your son and will make things worse for your son and your dog. That will be a guaranteed setup for failure. Most kids will probably be very scared of the dog that bit, even all dogs. A few kids might see it as a challenge/opportunity and decide to try and see if things can be worked out. If your son is scared, your decision might already be made.

My sympathies for being put in this situation. This is a huge fear of mine and it is not easy with the legal backlash against dogs these days.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that it is a bit different for the dog to bite a child that he has just met within two weeks and one he was raised with, but it is still hard, especially a bite to the head or face, and with little warning. I would probably go through some professional training, check out a behaviorist. It can be that the dog is seriously off balance because of the move. 

Generally, a dog will give all kinds of signals that he is uncomfortable with the situation, he will pace, he will yawn, he will pant excessively. He will bark, grumble, growl, and often snap before he resorts to biting. So the problems, what bothers me about this, is you have a dog that is around children all the time, runs and plays with them, and suddenly, lightning fast with just a growl milliseconds before the strike, he bites a nine year old in the head, enough to break the skin. 

I am guessing because I wasn't there, but I am guessing that the dog was seriously stressed and came to lay down at your feet because you are the person that is familiar. This is the equivalent to taking refuge in his crate, or hiding behind the couch. The people continued to come in and crowd him, and he struck back.

Don't rule out something physical though, a full physical with blood work might be in order. The dog is four? There are a few things that might be going on with the dog that can come out in aggression. Dogs often do not show signs of pain. Probably a throwback to being wild, and in the wild, a dog would be turned upon if it was weak or injured and over thrown in the pack order and possibly killed. So instead of outwardly showing pain, they act out aggressively if anything comes near enough to possibly hurt the injury or source of pain. Low on Vitamin B and low thyroid are also possible physical sources of unusual aggressiveness. I am sure there are other reasons for aggression that are worse like a brain tumor or rage syndrome, but the thing to do is to get a medical workup done on your dog.

I had a young bitch who failed her CGC. She did everything excellent, even supervised separation, but would not let the evaluator pet her head. The guy pet her head just two days prior and it baffled me. She was not aggressive, she just kept backing away. Overnight her top of her neck totally blew up in the worst hot spot I have ever seen. I think that this changed her behavior during that test.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Generally, a dog will give all kinds of signals that he is uncomfortable with the situation, he will pace, he will yawn, he will pant excessively. He will bark, grumble, growl, and often snap before he resorts to biting. So the problems, what bothers me about this, is you have a dog that is around children all the time, runs and plays with them, and suddenly, lightning fast with just a growl milliseconds before the strike, he bites a nine year old in the head, enough to break the skin.


The OP missed the signals, unless this is an oddball dog who gave none.
It's quite common. Many people just do not know how to read dog body language.


----------



## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

it's nice to see there's only been a couple of "kill the dog" posts so far, lol. 

this is not an aggressive dog. if Fonzie had been at the shop all this time and played and interacted w/people w/out incident then this is not aggression. he's only been in this NEW situation for 2wks. 

has there been any intro time? shut down time? quiet time? time away from the stress of constant newness, home noises, constant people sounds, tv, stereo, electronic sounds, water sounds, air conditioner, traffic, all these sounds and scents are far different than anything he'd come into contact at a shop he's used to being at constantly and would be very stressful for him if he were not crated properly in a quiet room by himself for a few hours aday to regroup or reboot. 

Fonzi did not "bite" the boy. sorry, a bite includes real damage. what Fonzi did is a hit. when someone does something unacceptable, i've seen these a couple of time done by herding breeds specifically, the dog will punch, or smack the person and yes it does include catching a tooth. this IS NOT a bite, it's a reprimand. if puppies were left w/their mothers for longer periods you might see that sort of behavior, or you might see it w/cattle herding. 

don't have Fonzi put down. you probably will never see him w/serious aggression, you will have to work on his acceptance of your children, and will have to work on your children to give Fonzi his respect and space too. at 145lbs this isn't a chihuahua you can just push out of the way. i would also find a good trainer to help you look for behavioral issues right there w/you. anyone here can only speculate. 

i also LOVE the large breed gsd's. good luck. 

dw~


----------



## waylon (Aug 24, 2011)

one thing i can say fonzie and his son waylon wrestle all the time and it may also be possible that fonzie thought that it was waylon because his head was facing me when this happened i dont know have not had any problems we are watching him and my son is not afraid he has still been playing with him i have had him since he was 8 months old and i bring him home once and a while then i decided i would like to have him here i will say this he has calmed waylon down a lot because fonzie has manners waylon dont it has made a huge differance in waylon and fonzie has been a great house dog so far


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Not sure if I'm reading it right, but when you (waylon) just mentioned that Fonzie might have thought it was his "son",,sounds like maybe he didn't realize YOUR son was the one and just whipped around and nailed the closest 'thing' to him, unfortunately your son's face/head?? Like in , ouch get off me, don't touch me, whatever.

Whatever the reason only Fonzie knows it, I'm glad your son is ok, I'm glad that Fonzie seems like he's been a great dog with all and that he and your son are back to being 'buddies'..


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> To the OP - please read through this site.
> Many dogs do not like being hugged, it's not in their "vocabulary".
> 
> Family Paws Dog and Baby Support
> ...


 
Up to the OP, but personally I could not keep a dog that i could not trust with my children. 

And any normal dog should certainly put up (at least) with any hug from any family member! (excepting only if they have some serious pain issues somewhere).


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

waylon said:


> one thing i can say fonzie and his son waylon wrestle all the time and it may also be possible that fonzie thought that it was waylon because his head was facing me when this happened i dont know have not had any problems we are watching him and my son is not afraid he has still been playing with him i have had him since he was 8 months old and i bring him home once and a while then i decided i would like to have him here i will say this he has calmed waylon down a lot because fonzie has manners waylon dont it has made a huge differance in waylon and fonzie has been a great house dog so far


 
Just a hint from me personally - some punctuation would make reading your posts so much easier.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Up to the OP, but personally I could not keep a dog that i could not trust with my children.
> 
> And any normal dog should certainly put up (at least) with any hug from any family member! (excepting only if they have some serious pain issues somewhere).


If raised with kids from a puppy, yes, I tend to agree...but we get dogs in rescue all the time that just aren't going to "like" kids hugging them. Either the kids there were too rough, or the dog never was around kids.
This dog (if I'm reading correctly) wasn't around the kids until just now at 4yrs. of age.
I'd give it time to acclimatize and all kids should be taught to not lay on, hug and/or use the dog as a trampoline.

It is not unusual to get dogs who the kids pulled ears and layed on or picked up and dropped the dog, and the dog became very leery of kids, because the parents did little to protect the _pet_ from _the kids._


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> If raised with kids from a puppy, yes, I tend to agree...but we get dogs in rescue all the time that just aren't going to "like" kids hugging them. Either the kids there were too rough, or the dog never was around kids.
> This dog (if I'm reading correctly) wasn't around the kids until just now at 4yrs. of age.
> I'd give it time to acclimatize and all kids should be taught to not lay on, hug and/or use the dog as a trampoline.
> 
> It is not unusual to get dogs who the kids pulled ears and layed on or picked up and dropped the dog, and the dog became very leery of kids, because the parents did little to protect the _pet_ from _the kids._


 
Very true about a strange (new) dog! Would really have to watch them (and the kids as well!) for a good long while.

All of our dogs were obtained as puppies or very young adults that we had seen for a while.

And they would all put up with almost anything from their kids (or our neighbors!) but the kids were also trained to treat the dogs properly.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> And they would all put up with almost anything from their kids (or our neighbors!) but the kids were also trained to treat the dogs properly.


It is so important to do that! 
The link explains why many times dogs will nip or bite, and how to avoid that occurring by teaching kids the proper way to interact with dogs. 

It's funny (sad)...when I was growing up if we got bitten by a dog or scratched by a cat, it was "What did _you_ do to the dog/cat??" 

Nowadays it's Fido to the pound, no questions asked 
I'd never expect parents to keep a dog that bit, but I do ask them to review their child's actions and if inappropriate, help change them.

Most dogs don't want to bite/nip a child but often their defensive actions (back to good ol' body language) are ignored by kids and parents and the bite/nip is a result.


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> It is so important to do that!
> The link explains why many times dogs will nip or bite, and how to avoid that occurring by teaching kids the proper way to interact with dogs.
> 
> It's funny (sad)...when I was growing up if we got bitten by a dog or scratched by a cat, it was "What did _you_ do to the dog/cat??"
> ...


I'll second that. 

I watched my four year old great nephew drag the family's King Charles Spaniel by his collar up steps to a slide and then push him down the slide. The poor dog was terrified - but because he didn't bite and tolerated it, my great nephew wasn't corrected. 

The best - or worst - of this is the boys father is a prison officer and dog handler of two drug detection dogs. 

As we watched I suggested to the little boy that if he gave his doggie a treat he might like it more. Luckily his mom said he could give him treats and by the time we left a hour later the dog was happily running up the steps and going down the slide on his own accord. My great nephew was beaming - and telling us all how he'd trained his doggie. 
_______________
Sue


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Waylon

I think we were all a little confused by your original post - at your reference to his son - I for one, wasn't sure if you meant another dog or child. 

I had a similar situation with our dogs once. We had an 11 year old GSD, and we then took on a one year old. One day we gave them both a bone, and the older one took her's in the kitchen and the younger one stayed in the dining room. 

About fifteen minutes later I went into the kitchen, to get something - my foot touched our old dog and she turned quickly, air snapped and growled. I honestly don't know who it scared the most - me or her - the look of horror on her face when she realised it was me and not the new dog - she cowered so much into the corner - I ended up feeling sorry for her. 

Good Luck - I really hope all your troubles are behind you.
______________
Sue


----------

