# Puppy from Championship Sire



## onesweetbeth (Nov 18, 2015)

Not sure if I posted in the correct forum, admin feel free to move it. 
I've been reading all the wonderful information these forums have and finally have a question I couldn't find on here or by googling. 

If a puppy has a championship sire, is it likely to still make a good family pet? One of the breeders we've been looking at has a litter with a championship sire (in Germany) and a mother in another state. They have said they breed "family" dogs. The owner of the mother has wonderful things to say about her, all the puppies remaining are female. I am wondering how much the father's drive will play in to the characteristics of the puppies or if it means they may have a good desire to focus and learn. (wishful thinking I hope!) 

My gut is telling me to look somewhere else after learning about the father and watching his youtube videos where he won his championships, but I may just be misunderstanding how the traits are passed on and what it means to have a dog that can perform at that level. 
Thanks!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

is it working line puppy or a showline puppy??? There are dogs in every litter that can - and SHOULD!!! - be very functional as a family companion....yes, they still need to have basic obedience training and will still have some drive - who doesn't want to play fetch with their puppy after all??? But winning a championship does not preclude the ability to be a good companion for the offspring!

Lee


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## onesweetbeth (Nov 18, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> is it working line puppy or a showline puppy??? There are dogs in every litter that can - and SHOULD!!! - be very functional as a family companion....yes, they still need to have basic obedience training and will still have some drive - who doesn't want to play fetch with their puppy after all??? But winning a championship does not preclude the ability to be a good companion for the offspring!
> 
> Lee


Working. Sorry, meant to specify. Thanks, that's what I was hoping to have confirmed, that it can be trained as a family dog as well. I found a video where another of his offspring was performing in a championship and I worried I may be out of my league.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"If a puppy has a championship sire, is it likely to still make a good family pet? One of the breeders we've been looking at has a litter with a championship sire (in Germany) and a mother in another state"

If this is how the seller of the pup is describing the sire I would have some serious doubts about their knowledge .
Champion of what? American and Canadian kennel club reward points in a scale determined by how many dogs were defeated , given by different judges (not the same one who happens to like your dog) . Europe doesn't operate under "champion" titles . 
Are they brokering the pups , because you say the female is in another state .

can you give pedigrees and/or the video ?

many things come into play in the temperament of a pup.
Yes , genetics of the sire , but just as much if not more the temperament of the dam , the early life experiences good and bad , nutrition contributing to brain and neural health, orthopedics and immune and general well being and hardiness.


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## onesweetbeth (Nov 18, 2015)

carmspack said:


> "If a puppy has a championship sire, is it likely to still make a good family pet? One of the breeders we've been looking at has a litter with a championship sire (in Germany) and a mother in another state"
> 
> If this is how the seller of the pup is describing the sire I would have some serious doubts about their knowledge .
> Champion of what? American and Canadian kennel club reward points in a scale determined by how many dogs were defeated , given by different judges (not the same one who happens to like your dog) . Europe doesn't operate under "champion" titles .
> ...


So here's the info she gave me when I asked about the parents. I was thinking about visiting today to try to get more info in person. I can get more specifics from the website on the parents but here's a copy from the email: 

"Hank, the sire, lives in Germany so chances are, he will never be here. Kato, the dam, lives with Kelly (one of the women who was here with me on Sunday) in Kentucky, its likely she will never be here either.
Hank is a three time world champion, a quick google of his name will pull up videos ect that you can watch. He's about 85 pounds, solid nerves, great house temperament, great drive (of course, as the titles he has aren't easy!). Kato is around 70 pounds, solid nerves and Kelly absolutely adores her house temperament."


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## onesweetbeth (Nov 18, 2015)

It won't let me edit my last post. I wanted to add that The next litter they just confirmed the pregnancy is with 2 dogs that are both local, so I intend to ask more about this one not being local and why.


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## onesweetbeth (Nov 18, 2015)

One of sire's videos. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zmgRkgqfaWw


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

onesweetbeth said:


> My gut is telling me to look somewhere else after learning about the father and watching his youtube videos where he won his championships, but I may just be misunderstanding how the traits are passed on and what it means to have a dog that can perform at that level.
> Thanks!


Trust that gut feeling.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Trust that gut feeling.




Yeah, keep looking.


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## onesweetbeth (Nov 18, 2015)

Thank you!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

onesweetbeth said:


> Thank you!


Sure!

You can ask for recommendations on this forum, I'm sure lots of people will be willing to help .


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I think he's a nice looking dog. *grin*


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

IMO any breeder who uses catch phrases like champion lines should be avoided. Champion of what?? Showing, IPO? That term just doesn't tell me anything and I've never heard a reputable breeder use it.

The sire looks like a nice dog in the video but I'd also want to know more about the female. Is she health tested, does she have working titles, etc etc. a working line can be a fabulous pet as long as you understand their mental and exercise requirements and that they are going to need their brain and bodies worked in some way everyday.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Meh that's a pretty big blanket statement. That dog is legit. Who knows how it will end up in your house though and a lot of that will depend on you.


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

"Hank, the sire, lives in Germany so chances are, he will never be here. Kato, the dam, lives with Kelly (one of the women who was here with me on Sunday) in Kentucky, its likely she will never be here either.
Hank is a three time world champion, a quick google of his name will pull up videos ect that you can watch. He's about 85 pounds, solid nerves, great house temperament, great drive (of course, as the titles he has aren't easy!). Kato is around 70 pounds, solid nerves and Kelly absolutely adores her house temperament."[/QUOTE]

I am not seeing where the breeder says "championship lines". I am seeing "three time world champion" which is true and I believe he is the only dog to have ever done this in IPO. Not sure how the puppy would be in the house and I would love to know more about the dam. Not sure how the puppy would do in the house. It seems people are quick to disparage the breeder for use of a catch phrase (that is not there) and not looking at the dog. I can't see this dog being used by a truly "bad" or backyard breeder.


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

Few days ago, I met and photographed one of his sons (his mother is also world championship participant) on training. He seams like clear headed, confident dog, and he didn't mind my lens in his face  He is intense when he works but he have nice off switch. His sister lives in very urban area of the city and she is great family dog.

My trainer have malinois with whom he competed in world championship 2x. She is house dog and sleeps in their bed  So, those dogs can be great family dogs but you need to work with them.


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## onesweetbeth (Nov 18, 2015)

J and J M said:


> "Hank, the sire, lives in Germany so chances are, he will never be here. Kato, the dam, lives with Kelly (one of the women who was here with me on Sunday) in Kentucky, its likely she will never be here either.
> Hank is a three time world champion, a quick google of his name will pull up videos ect that you can watch. He's about 85 pounds, solid nerves, great house temperament, great drive (of course, as the titles he has aren't easy!). Kato is around 70 pounds, solid nerves and Kelly absolutely adores her house temperament."


I am not seeing where the breeder says "championship lines". I am seeing "three time world champion" which is true and I believe he is the only dog to have ever done this in IPO. Not sure how the puppy would be in the house and I would love to know more about the dam. Not sure how the puppy would do in the house. It seems people are quick to disparage the breeder for use of a catch phrase (that is not there) and not looking at the dog. I can't see this dog being used by a truly "bad" or backyard breeder.[/QUOTE]

No, they don't speak of them as having championship lines. In fact they didn't share the information about the sire being a three time world champion until I asked for more information on him. 
Thanks for your help!


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## onesweetbeth (Nov 18, 2015)

Black Kali said:


> Few days ago, I met and photographed one of his sons (his mother is also world championship participant) on training. He seams like clear headed, confident dog, and he didn't mind my lens in his face
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is Nice information to hear! Thanks!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Honestly. It looks like a nice litter. I still say look elsewhere. You are no where near ready for a pup from this litter. Sorry. To be this "clueless" as to what you are looking at and for. It's a bad idea. 

I have reservations as well with any breeder selling someone so novice they don't even comprehend the lineage or work of the dogs, one. Sorry. I don't think this would be a successful match. 

You need to get out to clubs. Decide what you want in a dog, meet lots of dogs, figure out if you are going to do anything with the dog. Just educate yourself. Please.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here's where the championship lines miscommunication came from , post number one "If a puppy has a championship sire, is it likely to still make a good family pet? One of the breeders we've been looking at has a litter with a championship sire (in Germany) and a mother in another state"


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

If the dogs are stable, they should be fine as a family pet. I truly don't think a German Shepherd should lack drive entirely, so I would assume that yes, out of this breeding, the puppies will have drive. As someone interested in owning a working line GSD, you should know that right off the bat. They need exercise and stimulation and training and structure, regardless. 

This dog in question is a word champion. I would assume drive would be inherited. I would also assume that he is stable. If you are looking for a dog with less drive, I wouldn't suggest a working line German Shepherd.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Iv seen offspring. They don't get much more famous then hank..lol.
I wouldn't see an issue with one as a pet as long as you go to a Ballanced trainer that has a clue.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> If the dogs are stable, they should be fine as a family pet. I truly don't think a German Shepherd should lack drive entirely, so I would assume that yes, out of this breeding, the puppies will have drive. As someone interested in owning a working line GSD, you should know that right off the bat. They need exercise and stimulation and training and structure, regardless.
> 
> This dog in question is a word champion. I would assume drive would be inherited. I would also assume that he is stable. If you are looking for a dog with less drive, I wouldn't suggest a working line German Shepherd.


World champion * sorry


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The biggest consideration when a novice gets a GSD pup from a working litter is the experience and knowledge of the breeder. They are the ones that have to pick the puppy for you. They are the ones that need to know the lines they are using, understand what they are seeing when they interact with the puppies, understand the sire and dam and any previous pups. Are they working dogs from their own breedings so they know what they are like? Have they placed pups from this female or from similar breedings into pet/novice homes? ETC.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onesweetbeth said:


> If a puppy has a championship sire, is it likely to still make a good family pet?
> 
> My gut is telling me to look somewhere else after learning about the father and watching his youtube videos where he won his championships, but I may just be misunderstanding how the traits are passed on and what it means to have a dog that can perform at that level.
> Thanks!





onesweetbeth said:


> Working.


First working line dog for me....

My dog's sire won the WUSV and has won the Nationals the last two years. 

He is a wonderful dog. Great off switch. Super temperament. Easy to live with.

It's all on the individual breeding, my friend!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is possible, that the breeder co-owns the bitch. This way, the breeder can have a lot of dogs without being over-whelmed with dogs. People can have a nice bitch, and once the bitch is bred, arrangements for the litter to be whelped with the breeder or with the co-owner need to be made, etc. 

It is probably a much better system than owning all your own bitches and raising them all yourself. That way you can keep tabs on what you are producing and breed your own lines, breed for the future, and still have a few dogs that you work regularly. The dogs have a much better life, more attention, etc. And, the chances of having the dogs reach the level they are capable of in titles, etc, would improve dependent on the competence of the co-owner. 

Using outside studs, of course, is probably a much better scenario than the breeder who breeds their dog and bitch together. Chances are much better that the dog was chosen for the bitch -- to complement her strengths and weaknesses. Of course, any time you have a world champion stud dog, it could be that they were breeding to that dog for that reason alone.

I really don't know the stud owners, but they could be selling semen to whoever will pay the price, in any business there will be those whose interest includes return on investment. In show circles, a stud dog might be blamed if poor quality pups are attributed to him. But not everyone worries so much about this. I guess the point is that you cannot be 100% certain that just because the sire was a famous dog, that the breeding itself was carried out by knowledgeable people and the dam was a suitable bitch for the dog. 

I do not see red flags in what was written at all. But I do wonder if it might be a lot of dog for a novice owner who wants a pet.


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