# GSD attack



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I just saw this in the morning paper, has anyone heard of any more details. ( I don't mean graphic) I hadn't seen anything about it until this morning...



Ohio woman dies after dog attack 











COSHOCTON, Ohio (AP) -- Authorities say an Ohio woman has died from injuries suffered last week when the family dog attacked her.
County sheriff's reports and a hospital spokeswoman said 35-year-old Rachael Honabarger of Coshocton died Saturday at a Columbus hospital.
Coshocton's dog warden said Honabarger was attacked Tuesday by the family's dog, a 100-pound, 3-year-old German shepherd. She is believed to have suffered wounds to her neck.
The Coshocton Tribune ( http://ohne.ws/11NmHGP ) reports that a neighbor was credited with seeing Honabarger in distress, pulling the dog off her and performing first aid until emergency personnel arrived.
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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

OMG how dreadful. Thank God the neighbor was able to save her life.


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## Metro_Mike (Mar 29, 2013)

arycrest said:


> OMG how dreadful. Thank God the neighbor was able to save her life.


The woman died.

Sad and tragic. It also affects all of us with BDSL and public perception of GSD.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

This story just hits me in the pit of my stomach. I have to stop reading these stories as they are freaking me out about having a gsd. I feel so bad for her family.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One of the reports said it was a 150 pound GSD.

I am not trying to create a conflict, but a dog is attacking a woman so that she died and a neighbor can walk up and pull the attacking dog off and put it in a kennel. A 100-150 pound dog, the neighbor was able to just pull off of her, without being attacked. 

I mean, I know that when dogs are in full attack mode they will often re-direct their frustration on whatever is available. It is just odd. And what a hero. It is too bad the woman didn't make it. 

I mean, she died nearly a week later. Why? This happened last Tuesday. I mean if they couldn't stop the bleeding then she would have died last week. Why did she die six days later? Could it have been shock that killed her? 

How awful all the way around. Awful for her family, and what an awful way to go for a young woman. I hope it wasn't a GSD, but if it is, well, that even more awful to those of us who own and love the breed.


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## MiaMoo (Apr 6, 2013)

selzer said:


> I mean, she died nearly a week later. Why? This happened last Tuesday. I mean if they couldn't stop the bleeding then she would have died last week. Why did she die six days later? Could it have been shock that killed her?


There's other reasons she could have died afterwards other than bleeding out. It was on her neck so it could have affected her breathing that they weren't able to fix, internal bleeding, infection, removal of life support, etc.

Awful story, though. I've never even considered the possibility of my Mia doing something like that, but these are quite large, strong animals.


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

Selzer------" I mean, she died nearly a week later. Why? This happened last Tuesday. I mean if they couldn't stop the bleeding then she would have died last week. Why did she die six days later? Could it have been shock that killed her?"-------

It could have been septic shock, caused by infection. It could also have been that she might have had other medical conditions that were exacerbated by the trauma. A complication of surgery or anesthesia. Or, it could be possible it was not related to the dog attack at all, just coincidental timing. It is impossible to say without knowing the history specific to her case.

I think I made a comment on this a few days ago. I watched the news video----and they really didn't say anything very informative.

Like you Selzer, I thought it was extremely odd that the dog would attack and kill its owner----and this neighbor whom I gathered from the context was not very close or well acquainted with the family could just walk in, pull the dog off and put it in a kennel and not get attacked or bitten.

I think there is a lot more in the background to this than what got on the news report. It doesn't add up to me.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

GSD's are NOT supposed to be inherently aggressive! They can be trained to be aggressive but you do not want a sheepdog that kills the herd its charged with protecting.

A dog that kills its owner would be unusual and there's something wrong with the dog. That is NOT normal GSD behavior.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NormanF said:


> *GSD's are NOT supposed to be inherently aggressive! *They can be trained to be aggressive but you do not want a sheepdog that kills the herd its charged with protecting.


Yes, actually they are. How do they protect the sheep from predators without having some defense and prey drives, i.e. aggression. It's why there is a protection phase in Schutzhund, to test that aggression.



NormanF said:


> A dog that kills its owner would be unusual and there's something wrong with the dog. That is NOT normal GSD behavior.


Absolutely. A GSD is not supposed to turn on their own pack.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Msmaria said:


> This story just hits me in the pit of my stomach. I have to stop reading these stories as they are freaking me out about having a gsd. I feel so bad for her family.


I love my dog - what happened is a tragedy. But for every GSD that goes bad there are tens of thousands more that are happy, loving and devoted dogs! Those are the one's we don't get much publicity about. A GSD is an adaptable dog and a good family pet. Don't let an incident like this one color your perceptions of the breed or turn you against adopting a GSD.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I have to disagree with the above. GSD's have inherent aggression. Otherwise, we wouldn't have PD's, or border patrol, or security dogs. There is a huge difference between inherent aggression with a stable dog and an aggressive dog.
As for the unfortunate circumstances, I have a feeling we're missing quite a few pieces of the puzzle. Something isn't right about it.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Yes, actually they are. How do they protect the sheep from predators without having some defense and prey drives, i.e. aggression. It's why there is a protection phase in Schutzhund, to test that aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. A GSD is not supposed to turn on their own pack.


There's a difference between a dog's natural protective instincts, which are conditioned to direct it to protect sheep and outright aggression. Aggression in any dog, especially unrestrained aggression, is undesirable and considered a fault. Any dog in the family protects its own pack, whether they are humans or small animals its socialized to consider its fellow packmates.

Now some GSDs are trained for aggressive shutzhund work but no one would consider them suitable family pets.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

ShenzisMom said:


> I have to disagree with the above. GSD's have inherent aggression. Otherwise, we wouldn't have PD's, or border patrol, or security dogs. There is a huge difference between inherent aggression with a stable dog and an aggressive dog.
> As for the unfortunate circumstances, I have a feeling we're missing quite a few pieces of the puzzle. Something isn't right about it.


People train dogs to be aggressive in police work, border patrol or as guardian dogs of property. If GSDs were inherently aggressive, they wouldn't make suitable companions and family pets. My dog is not aggressive at all and she doesn't even bark or growl. She's a calm, happy and laid back dog as a GSD could be.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NormanF said:


> People train dogs to be aggressive in police work, border patrol or as guardian dogs of property. If GSDs were inherently aggressive, they wouldn't make suitable companions and family pets. My dog is not aggressive at all and she doesn't even bark or growl. She's a calm, happy and laid back dog as a GSD could be.


They can not train a dog to be "aggressive" for these lines of work. Either the dog has what it takes or doesn't. If they do not have the defense and prey drives then no trainer, no matter how good they are, can not put it in them.

And these dogs were bred to be stable. it's their stability that gives them the ability to have inherent aggression and be able to shut it off.

A couple weeks ago I went to a SchH trial. I watched an Xbox son be worked in protection and then come off the field and lick a baby. It's all about the Off Switch.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NormanF said:


> Now some GSDs are trained for aggressive shutzhund work but no one would consider them suitable family pets.


WHATTTTTT???????

:rofl:

I'm going to assume you don't know much about Schutzhund dogs. Contact Carmspack, Wildhaus, Wolfstraum, Johnsonhaus, Cliff...just to name a very small amount of the breeders who raise working line dogs and work them in SchH AND have those same dogs go home to live peacefully with babies.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> WHATTTTTT???????
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> I'm going to assume you don't know much about Schutzhund dogs. Contact Carmspack, Wildhaus, Wolfstraum, Johnsonhaus, Cliff...just to name a very small amount of the breeders who raise working line dogs and work them in SchH AND have those same dogs go home to live peacefully with babies.


I don't have a schutzhund dog. If the dog's "off switch" works, they can live at home with a family. If it malfunctions, then its a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NormanF said:


> I don't have a schutzhund dog. If the dog's "off switch" works, they can live at home with a family. If it malfunctions, then its a disaster waiting to happen.


Absolutely. That doesn't just go for dogs worked in SchH. That goes for all poorly bred dogs and most likely for the dog in this article.

You should find a SchH club and go meet some of the dogs. I think you'll be very impressed and have a good appreciation for what a stable, balanced, dog is. And...it's fun to watch.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

:rofl: I'm sorry, the GSD's, Rotts, Dobes, Pitts, Akitas, Corso etc are really labs and retrievers in different coats. That is, until the sociopath human turns them!

:help:

With that, I'm out.:crazy:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. I'd rather hang out at a SchH event then a general pet fair type of event, it's safer. 



Jax08 said:


> Absolutely. That doesn't just go for dogs worked in SchH. That goes for all poorly bred dogs and most likely for the dog in this article.
> 
> You should find a SchH club and go meet some of the dogs. I think you'll be very impressed and have a good appreciation for what a stable, balanced, dog is. And...it's fun to watch.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Breed Standard

United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard



> *Character*
> The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve.* He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.*



Fighting drive = inherent aggression. That doesn't mean an unstable dog that jumps at everything but one that will not back down from a threat.


I wonder if maybe the definition of "inherent aggression" is not the same in everyone's mind? The dogs should not be nerve bags. Nerve bags + inherent aggression = dangerous dog. Stable + inherent aggression = breed standard.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If you came to my house or that of my selected partner who helps raise dogs for police service , you would see totally sound stable dogs . They exude confidence , even the youngest of the young. Never for a moment would you be uncomfortable or sense "aggression" . Yet that is what they have when needed, without question , with controllability , with conviction . On this page http://www.carmspack.com/our-record/ is Carmspack in Policing , top , first dog. On the bottom of the same page is Carmspack and the Pet Owner , that is the very same dog !! with the handlers cute newborn baby , first in the family . Dog is the same dog . Dog has put some combative , refuse to resist arrests into hospital . He has an interesting pedigree in that his sire had a great deal of BODO Lierberg , who also produced many dogs for Guide Dogs . 100% of that litter went into work. His half brother - same dam , different sire went into police work Kawartha Lakes Police Service . He was a classroom favourite when he was used for public relations.
The lines continue as his sister is on many of my breedings and yes they are going into service and pets .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I'm sorry, the GSD's, Rotts, Dobes, Pitts, Akitas, Corso etc are really labs and retrievers in different coats. That is, until the sociopath human turns them!"

NO NO and again NO.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I was being sarcastic...lost over the internet ><.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NormanF said:


> There's a difference between a dog's natural protective instincts, which are conditioned to direct it to protect sheep and outright aggression. Aggression in any dog, especially unrestrained aggression, is undesirable and considered a fault. Any dog in the family protects its own pack, whether they are humans or small animals its socialized to consider its fellow packmates.
> 
> *Now some GSDs are trained for aggressive shutzhund work but no one would consider them suitable family pets*.


LOL!!! My ONLY schutzhund titled dog was titled before she was shipped to me. I had never seen her before opening her crate, putting a lead on her and letting her out to potty -- no one else was present. I guess I shouldn't be alive. 

I can take the bitch anywhere, let my nieces hug her, let vets take her and do x-rays and ultra-sounds and surgeries on her, and handle her new born puppies with never a grumble. She is perfectly suited to family life.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This thing really gets in my craw. I know that I am apt not to believe anything bad about my beloved breed. I know Cujo had brain involvement in his illness, he had a tumor hitting his spine, but we figure there was another in his brain, and they killed him, and that last night he was in pain, but he never, not once, even when we had to pick him up to move him, show any aggression toward us. I don't even know that he knew us the whole time, but he was not aggressive. 

When Frodo got hit by the car and his leg was shattered. I had him walk into a crate bottom and my friend (a young guy next door) carried the crate into the back of his Chevette hatch back, to get him to the vet. Frodo's head was bobbing next to the guy and he never once showed aggression to him or to me, when he was hurting so bad. His leg was busted in more than four places, and swelled way up. 

If the dog had rage syndrome or a brain tumor that drove him to attack, why could a neighbor pull him off and kennel him? Why was the neighbor not afraid? The dog was a BIG GSD. And in the middle of an attack, a dog will redirect their aggression onto anything else if they can no longer get to what they are trying to kill. 

I really don't want to type the only possible scenario that I can come up with. 

As for my own dogs. I have zero doubts about any of them ever attacking me. This is so very strange and tragic. And that is why I would have hoped some testing was done on the dog to find out what medical condition might have caused this, and I hope the police are investigating the whole thing, because it just smells. 

Yes, GSDs have been bred to guard, and even to attack on command. I think many have to be encouraged to continue to attack until the handler tells them to out. They have aggressiveness. They are a dog that, as Hagrid would say, can take care of itself (in a fight). What is odd is for a GSD to attack a non-threatening person that he knows, a family member; to go for the throat -- even police dogs are pretty much trained to go for extremities; to not attack the neighbor after being in a full-blown attack. 

When done properly, a schutzhund dog, should start out stable, and then be trained in such a manner that dog/handler is a team, the dog is totally confident, the handler has confidence in his dog, and the dog has to be under control, even when doing bite work, enough to hear and obey the command to out. I would not worry at all about a properly trained schutzhund dog. 

Is it possible that the people that had this dog wanted a very aggressive attack dog and went to a breeder who is breeding for killer instinct, killer drives, and then kept the dog and trained the dog specifically to increase the aggressiveness? I know that would be blaming the victim, but I suppose it is possible. I think it is more possible that the neighbor was more involved with the dog's training and management. I know, I am rambling.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Any dog in the family protects its own pack, whether they are humans or small animals its socialized to consider its fellow packmates.
> .


I think there is a misconception here too. Animals have a fight or flight instinct. There are many dogs that will not naturally protect their family and will flee as a form of self preservation, others who not only could care less about the small animals that live with them but no matter how much socialization can not be trusted to be left alone with them. There was an excellent thread somewhere on whether a dog would protect without training. I think it might be under the weekly discussion area.


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## stephanie in las vegas (Apr 7, 2013)

this story scares me so much!

Can anyone explain some possible reasons why a dog would turn against/attack its adult owner?


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

stephanie in las vegas said:


> this story scares me so much!
> 
> Can anyone explain some possible reasons why a dog would turn against/attack its adult owner?


There was an earlier thread on this same story. People discussed some possible reasons why, such as a brain tumor, severe abuse, etc...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/269706-ohio-woman-killed-family-pet-dog.html

Please don't let it scare you. This is _extremely_ rare! GSDs are good dogs


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

stephanie in las vegas said:


> this story scares me so much!
> 
> Can anyone explain some possible reasons why a dog would turn against/attack its adult owner?


 
There are reasons, like an illness or injury that seriously affected the dog. Could also be the dog wasn't wired correctly. I don't know why it did not transfer to the neighbor though. 

If the owner tried to unfairly punish an extremely dominant dog, and the woman was not, had never been a leadership position over the dog, I can understand a bite or two even, but unless the dog was seriously trained to continue to bite, I really can't understand a sustained attack that led to death, though we do not know if she died as a result of the attack or from secondary infections, blood poisoning, a really weak ticker, or what.

What we really need to look at is that this is extremely rare, that a GSD attack and kill anyone, much less an owner.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

I have to add, there may also be mistaken identity. Cod this dog have been a hybrid of some kind? I know Shepherds were used to mix with wolf lines. The reason I wonder this is due to the size of the dog. 150# GSD? It doesn't seem common. I know there are huge GSD's out there but thats a big GSD. Also the wolf hybrids are known to be aggressive also.


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## stephanie in las vegas (Apr 7, 2013)

Jack and Mattie,
Thanks for sending that link to the other thread - still getting used to making my way through the forum. The other thread was pretty informative, too.

Selzer,
Thanks for pointing out that this type of attack is extremely rare. We just rescued an older GSD and she's the love of my life, completely sweet and affectionate with humans, kids, other dogs, cat. I'm a first time dog owner (my husband has had dogs before), but I just want to make sure I'm not going to miss any weird warning signs... We've been bringing her to dog training courses and giving her lots of exercise, walks, play, etc. 

Jafo220, 
Yes - that totally makes sense! 150 pounds does sound like the dog was mixed with something. Our GSD is 65 pounds.


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## Walperstyle (Nov 20, 2012)

Anyone that owns a GSD knows they are a little aggressive, and do have stages of being 'a-holes' when they don't get attention. This can be trained and controlled, or exploited depending on the human.

Also, I'm sure you owners know a difference when your GSD is roughhousing with you, and actually biting you. My guy has bit me by accident before, its at least 300% stronger than his roughhousing bites. 

Its extremely rare for a GSD to attack its owner to this magnitude. The dog must have been scared for its life. ...I really wish I knew how the owner treaded this dog.


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## Walperstyle (Nov 20, 2012)

Oh by the way, from a friend of mine who is a Police officer. You know those little friendly dogs (like Pomeranian or chows?)... In the event you die in your house with your dog and nobody find's your body. Expect after about a week the dog will start eating you. I'd imagine its the same for GSDs. Its survival.

My buddy went to a call when he was new to being a Mountie, and this nice Friendly Pomeranian dog had eaten part of its owners leg because it was starving. 

I'd expect the same from my guy lol.


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