# Food Aggression Trainer



## Feathers

Hi,

My puppy started displaying food aggression a month+ ago and I've been trying to train her to accept that she can be touched while she ate and the food wasn't going to disappear besides into her own mouth and tummy. Things seemed to improve as she stopped growling much although she continued to vacuum her food as if she hasn't eaten in months or she's afraid the food will disappear. I allowed her to chomp away and I've probably been doing it wrong because today, she got worse.

She kept growling at me while licking her food, then suddenly bared her teeth, snarled and took a huge bite. If the bowl was plastic, I think she would've attempted to eat the bowl in that bite. I don't know what to do now and obviously, I need help. This is my first bully breed and I'm not sure I'll be safe if I allowed this to escalate as she grows older. At 4 months old, she is still young and small enough to handle, so I would really like to nip this in the bud before I get hurt.

My husband thinks a trainer is not necessary and I'm guessing that is because they're not cheap at all. Can anyone recommend trainers in the vicinity of Macomb County, Michigan whose prices are not going to burn the wallet?

(Really wishing Cesar Milan was not in LA and was nearer... lol)


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## dogma13

You are creating the problem inadvertently by making your puppy anxious about her food.Leave her alone to eat in peace.After a couple of weeks of completing ignoring her at mealtime and you are sure she's feeling more comfortable,walk by her at mealtime and drop a tasty treat into her dish and move on.She can become reconditioned to expect food is always given and never taken from her.

Training Leave It and Take it can be done with treats in a different context,never at mealtime.For the time being if she has something you need to get away from her - trade her for something more valuable.She snatches the tv remote,you counter offer with a squeaky toy or a delicious treat.


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## carmspack

people please let your dogs eat in peace .

do not create a problem . 

do not tease , harass , aggravate , bother, worry, maul, stimulate , challenge or compete with your dog -- you are setting a tone and impression in how the dog considers you ---- not a team mate , not a partner -- but a competitor, adversary , not a great pathway to being trustworthy

as a leader you are supposed protect the best interests of your dog 

-- so speaking of Cesar Milan there is some youtubey of what happens when a dog -- who is showing lots and lots of appeasement gestures -- is processed with all of the above things of what not to do ----


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## cheffjapman

What in the world? He's lucky he didn't lose his hand...or worse.

Speaking of food aggression, I don't know if this is accurate information so please tell me if it is a correct training method. I haven't asked my trainer (will ask tomorrow when I see her), but I have read that you can help over come this by hand feeding an entire meal a few pieces at a time. Luckily, none of my dogs are food aggressive. Sometimes they might get a little snippy with each other, but that is rare because we have them all separated during meal time.


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## Galathiel

I have a resource guarder - food in particular. It's great to use their food as training treats when they are young. We would have our little training session, but I then gave what remained in his bowl. 

The best thing you can do for a food guarder is let them eat in peace. After repeated feedings over time, as they mature (and aren't quite so voracious all the time), they realize that you give food, you don't take it. You're a positive in the area, not a negative. I give extra bits occasionally while he's eating, either calling his name and handing it to him, or putting it in his bowl.


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## Magwart

1. Your pup looks like a GSD in the picture, not a bully breed. Is it a mix? Or do you have two dogs? If you have a multi-dog household, that could be a big contributor --feeding in a crate is very important in that circumstance. Dogs eat in the crate, safe and sound, and no one bothers them at meal time -- not other dogs, and not people!

2. You are over-estimating your training needs, I think. Instead of focusing on how expensive private sessions are, focus on the cost of a novice group class. I think probably just need a basic, novice obedience class to get started working with your dog and teach you elementary skills and timing. Your pup is old enough for a good group obedience class--not a puppy play class, but a class that teaching basic skills. This isn't optional for novice owners--it trains the owners, not the dog. A basic course costs about $100-$150 for 5-6 weeks. Sometimes you can find classes for less money through a city park & rec service, or a local AKC obedience club chapter. If there's an AKC obedience club near you, that's a really good place to start! 

AVOID classes at "Big Box" stores though (they're sometimes taught by cashiers who went to a weekend seminar and know very little about dog training).

IMHO, completing at least one basic obedience class is ESSENTIAL dog ownership for people who aren't experts. It's every bit as essential as vet care and food. It's basic, responsible dog ownership. I've told people who balk at the cost of a training class that they can't afford a dog if they can't afford a novice class. Please share that with your hub. 

I've had many GSDs in my life, gone through many classes, and I still take my new dogs through at least class sequence whenever I adopt another one. I learn something new about myself or the dog in every class I've ever taken. There's something about having an expert watching your technique and timing that helps to really perfect that. Having to work toward a "graduation day" test when you'll have to perform a bunch of skills in front of the group also forces you to have to do "homework" with the dog every day to build the skills in time for the test. The tests tend to have a long sit, long down (often with distraction), send away, recall, and leash work. Good trainers fail you and have you retake the class if you can't demonstrate those things. Working towards all that at the beginning of your relationship with your dog ends up doing great things for how you and the dog communicate, in a short amount of time. There's something that happens during this first month and half of training -- the impact of a single class sequence on the dog-human relationship can last for the whole rest of the dog's life. And maybe you'll enjoy it so much that you'll want to work toward an advanced class.

What do those skills have to do with your pup's food behavior? Everything. The dog stops viewing the human as someone it bosses around, and NOT because you overpower the dog (what CM does -- I know people who've claim to have seen him cause dogs to pee and poop themselves off camera....not good!). Rather, this happens because you develop a productive relationship and communication style that the dog understands, through repetition, rewards, and corrections in a time-tested manner that uses the canine thought process to accomplish good things together. You develop a working partnership and communication style that flows in a lovely way that's satisfying to both ends of the leash. 

There are people who are religious about what kind of trainer is best. I'm not. I've worked with great balanced trainers who use prong collars, old-school Koehler trainers who use choke chains, positive clicker trainers who use treats and clicks, and more. They ALL can be effective with the right dog, and someone who is excellent with the method. They all can suck with the wrong dog, and someone who isn't excellent with the method. People here who claim any one of those methods is ineffective are usually people who've never actually done a real class with an expert using the method they're harshing on, or who've only trained one kind of dog (a hard one, a soft one, whatever). My dogs have loved every class, with every method because it was all about our relationship, and fun. We're there with an open mind to see what we can do together. The best trainers have a big bag of tricks and can train across multiple modalities, adjusting to the dog --- trainers I most adore aren't one-trick ponies and will use ANY method that works for the right dog, and they can adjust on the fly bringing in different methods to get the job done in a way that fun and engaging for the human and the dog. 

3. While you are looking for a class to sign up for, do a search on the forum for "NILF" (nothing in life is free). Practice it and live it with this pup. Get your hub on board too.

4. Hand feed the pup the whole meal for a while, a few kibbles at a time, if you can't force yourself to let the pup eat in peace in the crate -- wear leather garden gloves, if needed. If you feel teeth, don't give it a morsel and mark it with a firm-but-calm "no". Nudging softly I would allow. Mark good behavior with a "yes" or "good" as you give the handful of kibble. Try to make it DO something to get a handful of kibble (a sit, a down, a little trick). It is old enough it should already know sit and down, at least! Just measure out the full day's food ration, and give it out while you work with the pup. Once you start your training class, you can build your feeding sessions around long downs and long sits, adding a few seconds of time (and thus patience) each day. Food becomes about interacting with YOU, and praise for doing the right thing. That's what nearly every GSD wants more than anything.

Remind yourself that a food-motivated dog is super-easy to train because they'll work so very hard for their reward. Use that to your advantage! This is the only way I "mess with" dogs when eating. It's either part of training and working together, or the dog eats in peace. One or the other --- but not taking food away, sticking my hand in their bowl, or otherwise aggravating the dog eating from a bowl.

5. I've previously (recently!) posted about how to do Classical Counter Conditioning for food aggression, using a wire crate and really high value, meaty treats. It honestly works. I've rehabilitated adult foster dogs big enough to take a hand off with food aggression. I view it as the easiest thing to fix in them -- in a pup, it's a breeze. I've posted the step by step before. It just takes consistency, time, and commitment.

Patricia McConnell has a good explanation of the principles of CCC with resource guarding here:
Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention


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## carmspack

cheffjapman said:


> What in the world? He's lucky he didn't lose his hand...or worse.
> 
> Speaking of food aggression, I don't know if this is accurate information so please tell me if it is a correct training method. I haven't asked my trainer (will ask tomorrow when I see her), but I have read that you can help over come this by hand feeding an entire meal a few pieces at a time. Luckily, none of my dogs are food aggressive. Sometimes they might get a little snippy with each other, but that is rare because we have them all separated during meal time.


there is nothing to overcome if you don't create a problem in the first place


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## carmspack

some very good advice from Magwart .

read it once , and then again .
Galathiel said
"they realize that you give food, you don't take it. You're a positive in the area, not a negative."

absolutely --- you don't want their food, you don't care about it -- no competition - no need to guard 

dog gets to eat in peace -- which is better for digestion and health -- bonus !


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## cheffjapman

carmspack said:


> there is nothing to overcome if you don't create a problem in the first place




Oh I agree completely. And I see magwart had my question as number 4. Thanks for the advice guys, this forum has been very helpful.


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## cheffjapman

When it comes to finding a trainer, don't be afraid to talk to people either. I met our trainer by pure coincidence at the park. I saw her very well behaved GSD and started asking her questions. Turns out she has 20+ years experience training GSDs specifically. It ended with her coming to our house to train my entire family for $10/session.


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## Feathers

Thanks for the replies, guys. 

I have done one session where I fed her a whole dinner by hand while attempting to train "leave it". I don't consider it a full success yet as she can't wait very long and she still lunges for anything that drops on the ground. I also think she doesn't know the words just yet, more of the tone of voice, which is the same voice I use for "no", so... I haven't gotten round to doing more of these sessions, sadly.

And yes, I've seen that video before. That is one of the reasons why I don't dare to tackle this by myself. I'm not exactly a big strong guy who can stand pain lol. Because of Cesar, I've always viewed food aggression or any kind of possessive behaviour to be a dangerous task to get rid of. So basically, I've just been over-worrying and causing her to be anxious? I'll try leaving her alone, see how that works out.

Magwart, she is a GSD yes. I dunno, I've been told that GSDs are part of the bully breed group. And anyway, I've never had a large dog besides a golden retriever, so you can see why I'm feeling a little nervous about any signs of aggression. The only other dogs who has been in my life was a miniature pincher and a telomian (Malaysian terrier sort of) and they're not food motivated. The golden is, but he's so lazy that he would just rather sit and wait than get riled up.

I've managed to train her to do sit, down, paw, sit pretty and rollover, with leave it being the latest. When hubby wanted the paw, sit pretty and rollover tricks, I was the one who manage to train her because I've been watching so many dog training videos. Perhaps that is another reason why hubby is not interested in a professional trainer... because I've been doing a good job according to him. I've trained her not to jump on me either, but she doesn't seem to understand that others are not jumpable because she jumps on the hubby and other people all the time. I've told hubby not to rile her up, but I guess he only sees the cute puppy and not the attack dog that she can become, like most people who end up throwing their dogs away do... He's a big guy and I don't think he has the same worries I do, me being 5"1 and petite.

She is very very food motivated, to the point where she just goes crazy. She's willing to do her tricks for like, 1 second, then you have to treat her or she starts bouncing around. With the hubby, she jumps at him. I still have not been able to stop her being a land shark. She's just too excited over food. Even the process of me OPENING her bag of dry food, she starts whining and whimpering. Try touching a bag of chips, she thinks it's her treat bag and again, goes crazy. I keep trying to calm her down, hubby riles her up again. He says it's because he's working so much and almost never sees her, so that bit of excitement cheers him up.

I no longer know how to deal with this, tbh. It's like, I need a Cesar Milan to smack my hubby into seeing sense. I'll see if I can convince him to enroll us in a class, I'll even give up getting myself a bike at this point! :| It's so hard not being able to earn income myself and having to totally depend on him urgh...

Cheffjapman, we're not really keen on dog parks atm tbh. So I haven't really been meeting people around here. I'm new to the country which makes it even harder to socialize myself, let alone the pup


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## carmspack

pretty much "I've just been over-worrying and causing her to be anxious? "

THE most important obedience command is the recall -- come when called - 100% reliable

you have a food motivated dog --- USE that ---- when you give a meal - you give a meal -- put down -- go away -- leave the dog alone , don't hover , don't stare --- peace and quiet --- 

don't give the full meal 

start the meal time with some random recalls , any point from the house , the yard , random times - no patterns 
total spontaneity , which brings a fun and playful element to "learning"

now with some of the food handy you are going to call the dog , dog flies in to you -- you give a kibble , a quick scrub on the dogs sweet spot - teaser bit of food and away you go .

you have now developed a positive feed-back loop for the dog with recalls and association of food and pleasure coming from you 

then at some point chosen by you - give the meal , spread the kibble in a not-a-bowl --- 

what are you feeding --- are you giving enough -- is the dog satisfied - not just calorically but nutritionally?


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## Steve Strom

You don't need a trainer Feathers. Put her outside or in her crate, put the food in the bowl and don't give it to her till she settles down. Leave her alone to eat. Quit rewarding tricks with food. Reward calm. Have her lay still and quiet, reward that. Be prepared, have something with you so that you don't have to let her see you get the treats. You want to break that pattern.


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## Sunsilver

German shepherds are NOT part of the bully group! They are herding dogs - that's why they're called German SHEPHERDS.

Many of them still have the herding instinct.


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## Galathiel

German Shepherds are *not *a bully breed. If your dog is still that excited by food then maybe it's too hungry. It's hard for them to concentrate if they think they're starving. Maybe feed them a part of the meal first, THEN work on impulse control games. You can also do beginning impulse by making them hold position until you release them to eat. My pup would knock the bowl out of my hand if I let it go unchecked. I would start to put the bowl down, if the pup went for it, I just lifted the bowl back up and waited. Repeat as necessary. You might get some crying and wailing, but they are smart and figure it out quick.


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## carmspack

Feathers , I am curious about your location?

as to your bullybreed=GSD , to clear that up -- it isn't bully BREEDS -- but ancient common ancestors , in this case the molosser group which existed in pre-Roman Britain , and intermingled with the indigenous type of molosser that the Romans brought along with them as the Empire expanded .
The offspring from all of these dogs, from every new outpost were left behind for each region to develop for their own best uses . 

the oldest groups , Asian types will have common ancestors, the northern groups , husky dogs , African - mid Eastern basenji and sight hounds.


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## carmspack

Sunsilver said:


> German shepherds are NOT part of the bully group! They are herding dogs - that's why they're called German SHEPHERDS.
> 
> Many of them still have the herding instinct.


German shepherds are a modern , "Victorian" creation founded on indigenous herding dogs which had been herding not for decades , or centuries , but functionally for thousands of years 

" think our view of the formation of modern dog breeds has historically been one-dimensional,” says Bob Wayne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California, Los Angeles. “We didn’t consider that the process has a deep historical legacy.”

the canine genomic study , which a friend of mine , as a biologist researcher contributed to - human and canine genomic studies 

people were very surprised , including the researchers themselves, that the GSD did not get grouped into the "wolf" group , given the body structure and oral and written modern history with experimental wolf introduction

actually the border collie and the malinois had a closer wolf connection.

we aren't talking about "breeds" --

the next step is a greater look at pre-Colombian dogs in the "Americas"


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## Feathers

I am feeding Fromm Gold LBP as recommended by the people in this forum. She WAS on Purina Puppy Chow, and that was when she started displaying the food aggression and wolfing down. I think the wolfing down was what caused us to try and force her to pause so that she stopped choking on her food... which I'm thinking might have been what led to all the growling when touched while eating. Who knew one bag of food could cause so much problems. I knew the moment she started wolfing down that the purina wasn't giving her satisfaction...

I am currently living in Roseville, Michigan. Hence my request for trainers in the vicinity of Macomb County. I just thought that when people said GSDs were bully breeds, it meant they were hard to train/control/had "dangerous" stereotypes, since they WERE one of the dogs that people cried for bans like they're doing now with pit bulls. I didn't know it meant ancestry.

Steve Strom and Galathiel, yes, I have tried this approach as well. Didn't work. She just refused to calm down and was constantly tensed up. When she wasn't acting out and crying, she was crouched in a position as if she was ready to fight or flee at any movement... in this case, ready to lunge forward to grab as much food as possible... If her snout wasn't still small, I'd say the entire food bowl would've fit right in her mouth, the way she gobbles.

I had really hoped switching from Purina to Fromm would satisfy her hunger pangs and slow her down. I think I'm just too anxious myself...


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## carmspack

sounds like she was desparate for nutritional satisfaction.

moisten the food .

"I just thought that when people said GSDs were bully breeds, it meant they were hard to train/control/"

no -- just the exact opposite -- right in the standard -- intelligence , trainability, bidability 

""dangerous" stereotypes, since they WERE one of the dogs that people cried for bans like they're doing now with pit bull"

that misunderstanding comes from the data and image from so many poorly bred, not stable dogs, that are poorly trained "if" , and might belong to needy people who enjoy the intimidation factor and play up to the negative public perception -


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## mspiker03

Not sure if I read this right or not - but I would not train "leave it" during her meal time at this point. I would train it separately and let her eat in peace.

As for training leave it - I have never let the dog have the "leave it treat" and use a different treat to reward the "leave it." If they were constantly allowed to eat whatever they are supposed to "leave it", you could create some anticipation/frustration/confusion. In a real application of leave it, i probably don't ever want them to grab whatever I am asking them to leave it. If that makes sense.


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## Feathers

Carmspack, I was soaking her food for a while, yes. But it took a while for it to soften and while it did, she wouldn't stop crying and all that. Right now, I've decided to just let her wolf down and choke. Perhaps she will teach herself to slow down. She has already vomitted a couple days ago due to eating too fast. I just tried feeding her dinner and walking away, but watching from a distance; she didn't slow down, but she didn't choke this time, so she wasn't vacuuming her food like she usually does when I'm touching her. I'll continue leaving her alone and see how it goes tomorrow.

Mspiker03, I only managed to train leave it once, to see how well she did on just kibble. So only did it during dinner once and only used her kibble once. I had actually planned to use sausage, but figured she would be even crazier and uncontrollable with something sooooo much better than kibble. And yes, that makes sense. 

Which reminds me to ask: How do treat bags work? I mean, don't they get dirty from the treats? Or do you put the treats in a ziplock bag and then into the treat bag?


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## LuvShepherds

If you have a dog other than the one in your picture and it is the breed we are not allowed to talk about here, you need to go to a forum that specializes in that breed. We know a lot here about behavior, but breed differences make a difference in training. If your dog is already showing aggression and is that breed you mentioned, you need more help than we can give you. If the puppy is the one in the picture and is a German Shepherd, that is different. Don't play games it's food. It is teasing the dog and mean.


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## Dunkirk

There are food bowls designed to slow down a dog's eating,

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...fix=dog+food+bowl,aps,1260&crid=321V3IZBLPWRN


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## Feathers

LuvShepherds, erm no, I don't have any other dog in the house besides this GSD puppy.

Dunkirk, we have tried tennis balls and fists to slow her down, it only made her even more frantic to get the food. I even tried creating a food puzzle using the core of a kitchen towel... She did NOT like it at all...


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## LuvShepherds

Ok, then the rest of what I said is my advice. Don't play with food. I would feed the puppy in the crate with the door closed and latched so your dog feels safe.


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## voodoolamb

Feathers said:


> LuvShepherds, erm no, I don't have any other dog in the house besides this GSD puppy.
> 
> Dunkirk, we have tried tennis balls and fists to slow her down, it only made her even more frantic to get the food. I even tried creating a food puzzle using the core of a kitchen towel... She did NOT like it at all...


Have you tried scatter feeding? 

Just dump the whole bowl on the kitchen floor and spread it out. Slows them waaaaaay down.


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## LuvShepherds

voodoolamb said:


> Have you tried scatter feeding?
> 
> Just dump the whole bowl on the kitchen floor and spread it out. Slows them waaaaaay down.


That is a good idea. It also makes it impossible to be aggressive because they are so busy. I did something similar by putting all the food on a huge cookie sheet in the crate. Then he wasn't scarfing up loose hair from the floor.


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## Dunkirk

voodoolamb said:


> Have you tried scatter feeding?
> 
> Just dump the whole bowl on the kitchen floor and spread it out. Slows them waaaaaay down.


Couldn't the dog then start resource guarding the kitchen floor while there's food on it?


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## LuvShepherds

Dunkirk said:


> Couldn't the dog then start resource guarding the kitchen floor while there's food on it?


Less likely. Another way is to split the food up into several bowls around the house and then not touch them. She is guarding the location, which her bowl, as much as the food.

To the OP, why can't your dog take a class? They are not that expensive. Doesn't your husband understand there are expenses when you own a dog? A group class is much less expensive in the long run than fixing serious problems later. What she does now is fixable.


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## Feathers

LuvShepherds, I never play with her food. The only time I touch her food is when she drops them on the floor, so I pick them up and put them back in the bowl. My hubby doesn't want to spread her food on the floor either because he's worried about her thinking that anything dropped on the floor is hers to eat as she lives in the kitchen. As for training classes, I think it's also because he has never sent any dog he previously owned, to classes. I don't think his family has done so with their dogs either. Same goes with my parents, they've never been to classes (and neither have I due to this fact). He also says we can't afford classes atm, both monetary wise and time wise. I'm not able to drive alone and he's constantly at work. So basically, everyone is of the opinion that classes are not necessary. My sister-in-law's dog is completely wild and untrained, if he were not so old and slow right now, I'd probably have met the terror that they've been describing to me.


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## voodoolamb

Feathers said:


> LuvShepherds, I never play with her food. The only time I touch her food is when she drops them on the floor, so I pick them up and put them back in the bowl. My hubby doesn't want to spread her food on the floor either because he's worried about her thinking that anything dropped on the floor is hers to eat as she lives in the kitchen. As for training classes, I think it's also because he has never sent any dog he previously owned, to classes. I don't think his family has done so with their dogs either. Same goes with my parents, they've never been to classes (and neither have I due to this fact). He also says we can't afford classes atm, both monetary wise and time wise. I'm not able to drive alone and he's constantly at work. So basically, everyone is of the opinion that classes are not necessary. My sister-in-law's dog is completely wild and untrained, if he were not so old and slow right now, I'd probably have met the terror that they've been describing to me.


Take a look at this forum. A good hard look. There are MANY posts of from people with dogs just this side of puberty where they are seriously considering putting their dogs to sleep for aggressive behavior. Take a look at their dog's history. Your pup is starting on the same path as many of these now, unfortunately, dead dogs. 

Your pup is young. She is going to get bigger. Stronger. More powerful. She has already shown you that she will "go there" when she feels the need. GSDs are not goldens. They have natural human aggression. 

Judging from your posts, you do not have the experience to deal with this on your own. You are starting to get in over your head and are CREATING more aggression issues. Picking up the food and putting it back in the bowl just creates further anxiety in the pup. It IS playing with the food and causing more issues. You've gotten good advice in this thread but seem to be nixxing all of it...

Tell your husband that training classes are cheaper than hospital bills when your dog ends up giving you or him stitches.


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## Feathers

Oh trust me, the advices in this thread is not falling on death ears. I really do want to send her to training classes, but my hands are literally tied here. I can't work, I can't drive, I can't seem to convince my husband to do anything that is good in regards to the puppy, what else can I do? Right now, the only plus I have going for me is that I'm constantly home and can constantly watch her so that she has as little accidents in the house as possible and that she is fed on time and as recommended, 3 times a day. I can train her in simple tricks thanks to youtube videos, and I can make sure her bed is always clean and her water bowl is always full.

I have already stressed to him MANY times that I worry about when she is as big as I am and stronger than I am, if she doesn't stop the jumping and this food aggression. He completely waved my worries aside. He tells me he's already trying to correct her when she jumps on him, but I don't see any improvements as she still does it just as vigorously and often as before, when she was a tiny fluff ball. The only thing we have good going for us is that she is no longer mouthing us and when she feels our skin in her mouth, she immediately backs off. 

My sister-in-law's dog has caused her whole family to get stitches many times, they told me, yet they've never sent him to classes. Now they say he's too old to learn anymore, which I think is bull****, but again, I have no say there... Just letting you know what the mindset is here.

I really really do not know what else to do. And I did not know picking food off the floor to put it back in the bowl was "playing". My parents' dogs didn't seem to mind us doing that...


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## carmspack

voodoolamb said:


> Have you tried scatter feeding?
> 
> Just dump the whole bowl on the kitchen floor and spread it out. Slows them waaaaaay down.


yeah , that's what I said - don't use a bowl -- spread the kibble out on the floor or a yoga mat that you can roll up.

stop monitoring the dog . Don't time the dog .


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## carmspack

Feathers said:


> LuvShepherds, I never play with her food. The only time I touch her food is when she drops them on the floor, so I pick them up and put them back in the bowl. My hubby doesn't want to spread her food on the floor either because he's worried about her thinking that anything dropped on the floor is hers to eat as she lives in the kitchen. As for training classes, I think it's also because he has never sent any dog he previously owned, to classes. I don't think his family has done so with their dogs either. Same goes with my parents, they've never been to classes (and neither have I due to this fact). He also says we can't afford classes atm, both monetary wise and time wise. I'm not able to drive alone and he's constantly at work. So basically, everyone is of the opinion that classes are not necessary. My sister-in-law's dog is completely wild and untrained, if he were not so old and slow right now, I'd probably have met the terror that they've been describing to me.


please put the food down and go away --- 
you say "I never play with her food. The only time I touch her food is when she drops them on the floor, so I pick them up and put them back in the bowl'

oh my -- that means you are hovering -- close , creating tension , probably lightning fast to pick that when one drops on the floor you are right there to put it into the bowl.

that creates competition . You don't think a ravenous dog is incapable of eating off the floor.

so in your last post you say you aren't playing with the food , but in the first line of your post 
you say
"I've been trying to train her to accept that she can be touched while she ate and the food "

leave the food alone , leave the dog alone , leave the room -- let the dog eat in peace and quiet undisturbed ---- I can get a sense of how annoyed the dog is -- 

so the dog lives in the kitchen -- does the dog get pushy for food when you cook - or eat - 

kitchens are accident-central - 

someone needs to break the won't-don't-need-training barrier . 

so never mind the food , what other issues are there -- how social is the dog when out in public , being walked ? Problems walking with some manners? Problems with seeing other dogs ?
What happens when you have guests or family to your house ?
Do you plan to have the relative's dogs , with all their wildness and bad manners come visit your home ?
How do you bond with the dog.

If a class is out of the question for what ever reason , can the breeder provide some hands on help .

are you afraid of the dog?


----------



## voodoolamb

Feathers said:


> Oh trust me, the advices in this thread is not falling on death ears. I really do want to send her to training classes, but my hands are literally tied here. I can't work, I can't drive, I can't seem to convince my husband to do anything that is good in regards to the puppy, what else can I do? Right now, the only plus I have going for me is that I'm constantly home and can constantly watch her so that she has as little accidents in the house as possible and that she is fed on time and as recommended, 3 times a day. I can train her in simple tricks thanks to youtube videos, and I can make sure her bed is always clean and her water bowl is always full.
> 
> I have already stressed to him MANY times that I worry about when she is as big as I am and stronger than I am, if she doesn't stop the jumping and this food aggression. He completely waved my worries aside. He tells me he's already trying to correct her when she jumps on him, but I don't see any improvements as she still does it just as vigorously and often as before, when she was a tiny fluff ball. The only thing we have good going for us is that she is no longer mouthing us and when she feels our skin in her mouth, she immediately backs off.
> 
> My sister-in-law's dog has caused her whole family to get stitches many times, they told me, yet they've never sent him to classes. Now they say he's too old to learn anymore, which I think is bull****, but again, I have no say there... Just letting you know what the mindset is here.
> 
> I really really do not know what else to do. And I did not know picking food off the floor to put it back in the bowl was "playing". My parents' dogs didn't seem to mind us doing that...


Perhaps now is not the best time in your life to have a GSD puppy then? If your hands are that tied and your husband just doesn't "get it" - you are setting this pup up for failure. 

This is from another post of yours:



> we have tried blocking her from having easy access to the food with our fists and tennis balls... Honestly, I think that was what caused her to start showing signs of food aggression... The blockage made her even more frantic to get the food. Now, everytime we touch her while she's eating, she'll pause for a couple seconds, breathe hard, (she growled and snarled at me before) then start scooping as much food into her mouth as she possibly can *just in case* the food gets taken away. It's weird, we've never taken her food away without letting her finish eating before. I've now been letting her inhale this way while constantly rubbing her head until she finished. She is SO afraid of not getting to eat


ALL of this is what created these issues. There is NO REASON to touch a dog while it is eating. She was giving you A TON of body language signs saying she was not comfortable with you being so close while she was eating - LONG before she snapped at you. 

How would YOU feel if someone constantly rubbed your head while you were eating and kept putting there fist over your plate blocking you from getting at it? 

Simple solution. Take the dog to the bathroom or a laundry room. Scatter the food over the tile in there. Shut the door and let her eat in peace. Sweep and mop after she is done. 

Where did you get her by the way? What lines is she from?


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## LuvShepherds

Feathers said:


> LuvShepherds, I never play with her food. The only time I touch her food is when she drops them on the floor, so I pick them up and put them back in the bowl. My hubby doesn't want to spread her food on the floor either because he's worried about her thinking that anything dropped on the floor is hers to eat as she lives in the kitchen. As for training classes, I think it's also because he has never sent any dog he previously owned, to classes. I don't think his family has done so with their dogs either. Same goes with my parents, they've never been to classes (and neither have I due to this fact). He also says we can't afford classes atm, both monetary wise and time wise. I'm not able to drive alone and he's constantly at work. So basically, everyone is of the opinion that classes are not necessary. My sister-in-law's dog is completely wild and untrained, if he were not so old and slow right now, I'd probably have met the terror that they've been describing to me.





Feathers said:


> I have done one session where I fed her a whole dinner by hand while attempting to train "leave it". I don't consider it a full success yet as she can't wait very long and she still lunges for anything that drops on the ground. I also think she doesn't know the words just yet, more of the tone of voice, which is the same voice I use for "no", so... I haven't gotten round to doing more of these sessions, sadly


Feeding a whole dinner by hand to teach leave it would be playing with food. I taught Leave it with maybe five pieces of treats a day and with toys over a period of time. If this dog is supposed to be your companion since you are home alone, can't drive or work, how does your husband expect you to train and handle the dog by yourself without help when you have no experience with a dog like this and are already having problems? That is a set up to have a dog just like your family has, that is not behaving and impossible to live with. At the very least, watch all Stonnie's videos. These were recommended to me by a very experienced dog handler who owns many German Shepherds. I trust her suggestion implicitly.

His Labrador series works very well with German Shepherds. If need help with any aspect of training, please ask right away. Don't wait until it is too late.


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## LuvShepherds

He has 232 videos. But I also think you must have a trainer observe you with the dog and help you now. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UU6vdCX3-G6oDGajvQFreLLA


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## carmspack

feathers said "I have already stressed to him MANY times that I worry about when she is as big as I am and stronger than I am, if she doesn't stop the jumping and this food aggression."

that's what I thought -- you are afraid of the dog -- cute pup - but GSD grow quickly and you seem to have a lot of anxiety about being able to handle her when she is bigger and faster .
Now there is jumping too . So there are probably lots of other - normal dog - behaviours that aren't being managed well and effectively - 

Feathers said "Right now, the only plus I have going for me is that I'm constantly home and can constantly watch her so that she has as little accidents in the house as possible and that she is fed on time and as recommended, 3 times a day. I can train her in simple tricks thanks to youtube videos, and I can make sure her bed is always clean and her water bowl is always full."

Put the dog into a crate and go and have a normal social life for yourself.
Put the dog onto a leash and go out for a brisk walk . Train as you go . 

Maybe the dog would do better with one big satisfying meal -- wolf it down and then go for a snooze --- instead of these scheduled , timely , measured meals which leave the dog hungry in between , never satisfied --( fullness is satisfying -- ) . Maybe the amounts are recommendations on a bag - but your dog is an individual -- might not be adequate for your dog - or as nourishing as the food should be.

the dog is always with you , but no one knows how the two of you relate - and you constantly watch the dog - that isn't fun for you and it isn't fun for the dog .

everyone needs space and time apart . Healthy togetherness , healthy independent time.

clean beds and all are great for the house -- but dogs are dogs and are animals and love to roll in the grass and dig and kick up dirt and find puddles -- 

are you in a house , do you have a yard , are you able to put a little safe kennel outside for the dog ?

instead of watching the dog like a hawk - start house training by using a crate for constructive confinement - and immediate visit to the outdoors upon awakening . 

I don't know if a dog is right for you either -- 

whose idea was it ?


----------



## carmspack

good posts luvshepherds.


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## cloudpump

If the dog lives in the kitchen, isn't allowed to be trained, what do you do with the dog? Loving it is not enough. Mental and physical stimulation is necessary for these dogs. 
I'd re-home the dog. No disrespect to you in any way. But what is best for the dog?


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## Sunsilver

Feathers, it is normal for a healthy dog to finish its kibble in less than a minute. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a dog eating that fast. I agree that trying to slow the dog down may be what has created the food aggression.

How old is the dog? I don't recall you saying that anywhere in your posts.

I remember my female shepherd going through a phase at about 5 or 6 months where she was getting more than the recommended amount of food on the dog food bag, and STILL looking like I was starving her. I think she was getting about 5 cups a day. (Can't recall exactly - she's 10 now, so it was a long time ago.)

Eventually, her growth slowed, and I was able to cut the amount of food back.

The only thing I've ever done before feeding my dog was tell it to 'sit'. Then, I'd put the bowl down and walk away.


----------



## Bramble

Feathers have you considered finding a trainer who can come to the house and work with you? It will likely cost more than a group class, but it would be better than doing nothing or trying to "fix" things on your own and inadvertently making them worse. If you can not leave your house a private one on one trainer may be your only other option. It sounds like you are in over your head and stressed out and taking the wrong route with this pup and setting up an unhealthy and distrusting relationship. 

Have you spoken to your breeder about these issues? A reputable breeder should be willing to help. This may not be the right puppy for you and your situation. Best to figure that out now while the pup is still young and will be easier for your breeder to take back, retrain, and rehome.


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## carmspack

Bramble said --This may not be the right puppy for you and your situation. Best to figure that out now while the pup is still young and will be easier for your breeder to take back, retrain, and rehome.


Maybe NO dog at all is most suitable . It doesn't sound like either side of the family has good results with dog ownership.

You have to be realistic . The spouse is no help at all. The poster sounds like the dog can easily intimidate her and so problems are created.

I do wonder what the dogs exposure to the outside big world and what scares the owner . Dogs need a lot of guidance
at this age . That means supporting all their good behaviour so that it registers with the dog and becomes the norm, and quickly curtailing any deviations from what you want .

the handler gets the dog that he deserves --


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## Galathiel

Because of how fast Varik ate as a pup (he still is a master class eater), I put a LOT of water in his bowl with his food .. as in swimming around in a soup. I didn't wait for it to soften, I just used it to slow him down.

How old is the pup again? And how much are you feeding? Being so frantic still seems to me to be actual hunger and not necessarily just wanting to control the food.


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## carmspack

if the pup is one and the same as in the avatar then that is one good looking pup .

could you post a picture of the dog ? pedigree?


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## Steve Strom

> Steve Strom and Galathiel, yes, I have tried this approach as well. Didn't work. She just refused to calm down and was constantly tensed up.


Feathers, forget about every other dog and what they do or did. One thing that can be difficult is not really understanding what you're seeing with a different type of dog, then trying to apply all that other stuff to them.

Some dogs just eat every meal like its been weeks, and you aren't going to train them out of it. The things I mentioned are meant to change the association she has with you/food/excitement. That way there won't be the conflict or like someone mentioned, competition. It won't change with 1 or 2 times, it'll take a while. Being afraid is a problem. I think a little different management of situations can help you by creating that little bit of separation that calms her and you.I'd never mind any of the Ceasar stuff, you aren't going to dominate or submit this dog, and it doesn't make sense to try. She's going to have to respect you, but that's not going to come from teaching tricks. You have to be consistent over time. Re-read whats been posted, the walks, a crate, those things are control and structure without the fight.


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## carmspack

these are Feathers quotes from other threads --

"Thankfully, she's not fussy about food and gobbled everything up. The kibble size is sooooo cute too LOL! We shall know tonight if she has diarrhea again... Hopefully not...

I'm wondering though, am I reading the feeding recommendations right? At 3-4 months old, I feed her 6+ cups a day? And that's assuming she will be a 60lbs dog full grown? What if she'll be 70-80lbs? 10 cups? 

So feeding her just 3 cups a day is UNDER-feeding? I'm so confused"

same thread 
"She is actually very ribby right now. She puts on a pot belly after meals, but once she poops, her stomach shrinks in until she looks emancipated and just ugly. I'm hoping it's only because she's not actually absorbing much from the purina and because of her growth spurts, but looking at the feeding recommendations, maybe I was indeed under-feeding immensely! "

"Yeah, my puppy is too wiggly and bouncy to get a pic for you guys to tell me if that's good or feed more too. She came to us literally a skeleton, tbh. And she's never been chubby since we got her. I feared overfeeding due to accelerated growth and bone problems, so she constantly stayed skinny. Not forgetting how she's just been getting bigger and bigger..."

previous pup history -- diarrhea 

more - same thread
"I was feeding her a cup 3 times a day but switched to a cup and a half twice a day because of how voraciously she started attacking the food. I'm gonna go back to 3 times a day though, now that I'm giving her Fromm. I'm hoping that once she finds out she no longer constantly feels hungry that she'll slow down... My golden did lol... "

good advice from Nancy J "Actually Fromm was one of the foods I would soak for at least 30 minutes before feeding because it does swell up (at least the Fromm LBPG did) ; I forgot about that but then I realized I always soak my dog food because I would rather any swelling occur in the bowl and not their stomachs. FWIW, been doing it for years. No tartar issues.
I started soaking to keep the dogs from choking on the food because of wolfing it down"

good advice especially if you are providing diatomaceous earth as a vermifuge -- you do not want the dog
to inhale DE - food grade -- and definitely not pool grade --- be careful how you handle it yourself

Feathers again "Only thing is, like a human baby, I have to wipe up her snout because she gets so messy from it lol. "

carmspack -- no you don't , let the dog eat in peace . Managing in all the wrong places ----- get the spouse to get you into a training class --- you are the person responsible for the dog - then YOU get yourself into a class 

YOU know why you have a problem "Magwart, we have tried blocking her from having easy access to the food with our fists and tennis balls... Honestly, I think that was what caused her to start showing signs of food aggression... The blockage made her even more frantic to get the food. Now, everytime we touch her while she's eating, she'll pause for a couple seconds, breathe hard, (she growled and snarled at me before) then start scooping as much food into her mouth as she possibly can *just in case* the food gets taken away. It's weird, we've never taken her food away without letting her finish eating before. I've now been letting her inhale this way while constantly rubbing her head until she finished. She is SO afraid of not getting to eat "\\

Okay -- this is not meant in any disrespectful way whatsoever --- 
You said 
"Must be the asian in me, "

that explains a lot - cultural -- I live in a region blessed by diversity of different cultures including a large Asian population . Markham has an enclave of monied professionals which is victim to home-invasion.
So over the years I have had several clients buy a dog and training services which would include training sessions in Cantonese or Mandarin, neither one of which I speak --- but phonetics and cue cards or pen on palm help work it out.

I love the idea of multi-generation families . 
The idea behind the additional non-english training was to accommodate the grandma generation who stayed home to mind the grand childrens needs while the parents were away working at their careers . 
Even if English was not a problem , when a person is in a crisis situation they revert to the most original , most familiar language . 
Those clients were so pleased I ended up sending dogs to Hong Kong .

But I know --- that there is an underlying fear of breeds such as GSD . When I did my training I would either go into the Kensington market area of Toronto, or Broadview and Gerrard , Toronto, or the Pacific Mall , area . 
People would scatter -- . The dog would be totally neutral - not inciting this reaction . 
It is just a cultural thing .

so , understandable then why your extended family has the dogs the way they are --- but you don't have to follow --

the dog needs training . YOU need to feel comfortable when the dog is "lively" and spirited . You need to be able to
have a strong voice with authority.
You do have a property line, fence , shared at the back of your house - and those two houses apparently have 2 dogs each . 
I can imagine young GSD and the other dogs having contact there and being stimulated by barrier frustration and territory aggression. 
You need to be able to control your dog .


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Feathers said:


> My puppy started displaying food aggression a month+ ago and I've been trying to train her to accept that she can be touched while she ate and the food wasn't going to disappear besides into her own mouth and tummy. Things seemed to improve as she stopped growling much although she continued to vacuum her food as if she hasn't eaten in months or she's afraid the food will disappear. I allowed her to chomp away and I've probably been doing it wrong because today, she got worse.
> 
> She kept growling at me while licking her food, then suddenly bared her teeth, snarled and took a huge bite.


Definitely stop trying to train her to accept being touched while she eats. There is no need for that, and it's not going to help her learn that food isn't going to disappear. Clearly, it's making her nervous and if you continue down that path you could end up with a situation like the CM video that Carmspack posted, which is a sad case of well intentioned people following bad advise towards an easily predicted outcome. Dogs will not resource guard if they trust that you aren't going to start randomly yanking away valued things. Build trust. Be consistent, be fair. It truly is that simple. 

I was very proactive when Halo was a puppy, more so than with any of our previous dogs. I taught her to bring me things, rewarded her with a treat, then gave her the thing back. We named all the toys, so I could ask her to bring me the _______ (whatever), happy praise, yummy treat, "okay, take it", and she got it back again. I did that every day with a variety of things. We played tug, I asked her to drop it, rewarded with a treat and we played tug some more. I held a bone while she chewed it, offered her a treat, marked it ("yes!" or with a clicker) when she let go of the bone and ate the treat, and released her to take the bone again. With a tug or a bone, I maintained ownership of the item by continuing to hold one end. When we were done I simply didn't give it back after rewarding her for letting go. For ball play, I taught her to drop the ball for a treat and then I threw the ball again. Eventually, resumption of play became the sole reward and I could fade out food rewards. It was all struggle free, and she learned that giving up something didn't mean she'd never get it back again, which built trust. So when she had something she wasn't supposed to have, she'd still bring it to me because of the large bank of trust. I'd thank and reward her, and put it away. At some point she could have decided it wasn't worth it to bring stuff to me anymore because I might not give it back, but that never happened due to the solid foundation of training I had done. It also helped prevent keep away games, where you end up chasing our dog all over the house to get something away from them. Instead she liked bringing me things so much that she made it a game. She will bring me an Orbee ball and I take it away and give it back a couple of times before she's satisfied and then she goes off and chews it. Or she brings me a bone to hold for her while she chews it: 








Magwart said:


> Remind yourself that a food-motivated dog is super-easy to train because they'll work so very hard for their reward. Use that to your advantage! This is the only way I "mess with" dogs when eating. It's either part of training and working together, or the dog eats in peace. One or the other --- but not taking food away, sticking my hand in their bowl, or otherwise aggravating the dog eating from a bowl.


Excellent post, Magwart! When I have a young puppy I do some hand feeding out of the bowl, which I maintain possession of. But once I'm done and give the dog the food, I never take it away, or stick my hand in the bowl, or mess with the dog. I will sometimes stand nearby and drop good stuff in the bowl though. My presence during mealtimes is either neutral, or predicts something being added, like freeze dried liver raining into the bowl of ordinary kibble, never anything being taken away.



Feathers said:


> She is very very food motivated, to the point where she just goes crazy. She's willing to do her tricks for like, 1 second, then you have to treat her or she starts bouncing around.


Impulse control! I expand on that below, but she needs to learn that her behavior determines when she gets the food. I teach my dogs from the time they're young puppies to sit and wait while I put their food bowl down, and then release them to eat. If at any point they break the sit, I immediately pick the bowl up and wait for them to sit again. You may need to do this a half dozen times when you first try it, but she will figure it out. In the beginning I make it very easy, releasing to eat the second the bowl touches the floor. I gradually make it more difficult, working up to setting down the bowl and standing up all the way before releasing, then taking a step away from the bowl, etc. Eventually I can put the bowl right in front of the dog and walk 5 or 6 feet away before releasing. Our dogs are both adults now and they still get excited and spin in circles while I'm preparing their meals, but as soon as I pick up the bowls, they sit and give me eye contact. I don't need to say a word, I just wait for them to do it. I put down the bowls, close the gate between them (they eat in the garage - one in the enclosed pen, one outside it), and then say "okay". One time when Keefer was young, ONCE, he started to eat before I told him he could. I said "oops!" picked up his bowl, set it on the counter and made him wait until Dena was done eating before giving it back to him. Never tried it again!

In this photo Halo is about the same age as your puppy. My husband put down the food bowl, and she's looking at him, waiting for him to say okay: 










BTW, I'm not a fan of CM in general, but I do like your idea of him smacking some sense into your husband! :rofl:



mspiker03 said:


> As for training leave it - I have never let the dog have the "leave it treat" and use a different treat to reward the "leave it." If they were constantly allowed to eat whatever they are supposed to "leave it", you could create some anticipation/frustration/confusion. In a real application of leave it, i probably don't ever want them to grab whatever I am asking them to leave it.


:thumbup: Agreed. Leave it means you don't ever get the thing, and you reward with something else. I've done "leave it" exercises using a dog biscuit on the floor, and also a bowl filled with goodies. After we're done, I pick up the biscuit or the contents of the bowl and put them in my treat bag. The reward always comes from me. If I'm working with a toy, like training the dog not to jump up and grab a tug for example, I usually use the "wait" command. They're going to get it, just on my terms and at my discretion. Initially, I ask for a sit and eye contact ("watch") before releasing the dog to take it, but eventually that becomes a default behavior so I don't need to say anything. It's automatic, because they understand that's what's required to get what they want. 



Feathers said:


> Which reminds me to ask: How do treat bags work? I mean, don't they get dirty from the treats? Or do you put the treats in a ziplock bag and then into the treat bag?


Depends on what kind of treats you use. if I'm using something gunky or that needs refrigeration, I put them in a ziplok bag, which is easy to remove and put back in the fridge when I'm not using my treat bag. But there are plenty of treats that don't need that. If she's as food motivated as you describe, you can simply use her kibble as training treats, or at least mix it with a small amount of something more interesting. When Halo was a puppy, i'd measure out her lunch kibble, toss it into the treat bag, and whatever I didn't use for training went into her bowl for her to finish. I took her first week home off work, and after that I took long lunches for another month or so, and came home mid-day to spend time with her. Breakfast she got exclusively in her bowl because there was no time for training, but I did the same thing with her dinner kibble - measured it out and did a little training with it first. This is my favorite treat bag - it's large enough for treats and also a ball on a rope, it has lots of pockets for other stuff, including poop bags. I put $20 in the zip pocket on the back, my ID in the front pocket, and my cell phone drops easily in the smaller pocket inside the main pocket where the treats go: https://www.chewy.com/doggone-good-rapid-rewards-dog-treat/dp/143031

This package from Chewy is particularly good since it comes with the belt (sometimes sold separately), a clicker, and a wrist strap. I put my clicker on a wrist strap, and hook it to one of the D-rings. Many other treat bags have metal hinges on the sides, which inevitably break. I prefer the magnetic closure on this one. 

One of the things I really like to work on from the very beginning is impulse control exercises. That sounds like something that could really benefit you with your girl. The It's Yer Choice game by agility trainer and competitor Susan Garrett is sort of a default leave it, because the dog is not given any commands. It's basically a game of red light, green light, here the dog learns that the way to get the food in your hand is to stop trying to get the food in your hand. I like to add eye contact as an additional criteria, but you don't have to do that right away if you don't want. Polite behavior around food gets reinforced, pushy behavior doesn't get anything. I did this with Halo every day for weeks. 






The more food motivated the dog is, IME, the faster and easier they figure out how to make the food happen.


----------



## Feathers

Sorry for the delay in replying, but that was a lot of information to process. I'll first answer some of the questions about the puppy... This is gonna be a looong post...

She did not come from a reputable breeder and we never saw her parents. We bought her from a random guy who posted the advertisement on Hoobly Classifields. On April 20th, we went to a Meijer's parking lot and had a choice between 2 girls. My husband until now, still say he thought he was going to get shot. I don't remember if the guy told us her birthdate but I do remember that she was about 8-9 weeks old. He was supposed to send us pictures of the parents as well as her vet papers, but they never came. He never registered her parents and she does not have papers either. Perhaps that was why we got her cheap for a GSD at $450. So we have no idea if she is a 100% GSD or has mixed blood or anything about her past before she came to us. She should be about 18 weeks old now. 

The first night we brought her home.








Not sure if you can see her rib sticking out there, as she was very fluffy from her baby fur, but she came to us a skeleton...















She is now averaging 30lbs and I have been feeding her 3 and a half cups of Fromm Gold LBP per day. I have been separating that into 1 and 1/4 cup breakfast and dinner, and 1 cup for lunch. Her waistline was terrible during Purina, but it has been improving now and her ribs are no longer sticking out as if she was emaciated. If you guys think I should change my feeding to twice a day, then I'll try that too. And yes, I add water if I'm adding the DE. I know better than to attempt feeding her powder. I don't enjoy eating powder myself...

This was June 8th, when she got her new squeaky toy.








This is today, in her bed. Yes, she got lighter, then darker...








Am I afraid of the puppy (Aiya)? I don't think so. I think I'm afraid of what she CAN be. I see my sister-in-law's dog (Rascal), and I see my husband's parents' dog (Lucky); I most definitely fear her becoming like Rascal. What my husband sees on the other hand, is Aiya becoming like Lucky, who is very well behaved, has never bitten anyone, and is very reserved in her barking/growling which she rarely does. Lucky is by no means, a perfect dog, but everyone would say that she acts as if she has gone for obedience training which she hasn't. That is what my husband thinks Aiya will be. I HOPE she will be like that, but I am nervous about the possibility of her being more like Rascal. I have never seen a dog attack someone before and have never experienced anything that would put this fear in me, but I'm also a pessimist and have heard plenty of stories.



carmspack said:


> It is just a cultural thing .
> 
> so , understandable then why your extended family has the dogs the way they are --- but you don't have to follow --


My husband and his side of the family are Caucasians. I'm the Asian.



carmspack said:


> I don't know if a dog is right for you either --
> 
> whose idea was it ?


We both wanted a large breed puppy. We were actually looking for mixes at adoption agencies, but after having the first agency take forever to decide on an adoptee and after all that extremely long forms, hubby got annoyed and decided to just buy a puppy rather than adopt. I wanted a dog that had the sharp snout, pointy ears and manageable fur as I hated living with a golden. He decided on GSD because he had previous experiences with them when he was younger. I agreed to it because I thought we were BOTH going to handle the dog, like take evening walks together, train her together, etc etc. Turns out, I feed her, I walk her, I train her, I let her out and at first, I clean up her accidents. These days, I've been pushing him to do the clean ups. Basically, he wakes up, teases her, goes to work, comes home, plays with her, goes to sleep... and repeat... I didn't realize he wasn't going to agree to puppy classes either. I had definitely thought that was on the agenda if we got a dog. I had thought that unlike my parents, puppy classes was the norm here, just like vaccinations and vet visits was the norm...



carmspack said:


> so the dog lives in the kitchen -- does the dog get pushy for food when you cook - or eat


Not so much pushy for food, but she insists on sticking to your legs and tripping you. We tell her to go lay down in her bed. She's been doing that a lot more, but sometimes, we have to put her in the cage and close the door just to cook. We eat in the living room and she whines and whimpers because she's not able to get near us. Whether because she wants food or because she just wants to be close, I don't know. We don't feed her table scraps.



carmspack said:


> so never mind the food , what other issues are there -- how social is the dog when out in public , being walked ? Problems walking with some manners? Problems with seeing other dogs ?
> What happens when you have guests or family to your house ?
> Do you plan to have the relative's dogs , with all their wildness and bad manners come visit your home ?
> How do you bond with the dog.


Besides food, she still has separation anxiety... mostly when the husband leaves. If we leave together, she tantrums even worse. When I leave, she whines for a couple seconds, then calms down. I don't make a fuss when I leave and have done so from the beginning. She is VERY social, she loves people, always friendly approach. She enjoys jumping on people and licking them, and mostly, people allow it because they think it's cute. Again here: I see the possibility of the attack dog, others see the fluff ball that is "dawwwwwsoadorableawwyougivingmekisses"...

She walks very distractedly. She likes sticking close to people's legs and tripping them, a lot like cats. I don't let her sniff around or lead the walk and I keep her on a short leash so that I don't end up with a dog that pulls, though I'm sure if given the chance, she WILL pull

With Lucky, she quickly learned her place, but with their other dog (Cuddles), a miniature pincher, Aiya seems to like bothering her. Even after multiple corrections. Cuddles doesn't like her, especially now that she's bigger than a min pin, so their relationship ends up being one where Cuddles is constantly trying to get away, constantly growling and snarling at Aiya. We don't plan on ever introducing her to Rascal.

I don't play with her all that often, hubby does that most. I'm just the one who is there all day. I've placed my laptop on the kitchen table and that's where I usually sit. That's also how I've been watching her, corner of my eye and stuff. Lately though, I've been watching movies in the living room. I started doing that when we got a baby gate to block off the kitchen as well as a potty bell, so I'm not constantly in the kitchen anymore. When I am, I basically just ignore her, sometimes pet her when she comes up to me. But otherwise, she's left to entertain herself. I wouldn't say we have much of a bond, really.



carmspack said:


> If a class is out of the question for what ever reason , can the breeder provide some hands on help .


The breeder is no longer in contact with us. After selling us the puppy, that was the last we heard of him, no pictures of parents, no vet papers, so definitely no training help...



carmspack said:


> Maybe the dog would do better with one big satisfying meal -- wolf it down and then go for a snooze --- instead of these scheduled , timely , measured meals which leave the dog hungry in between , never satisfied --( fullness is satisfying -- ) . Maybe the amounts are recommendations on a bag - but your dog is an individual -- might not be adequate for your dog - or as nourishing as the food should be.


Every morning, her ribs stick out again... IS one big meal better? Would that leave her looking emaciated once she poops after that meal? I've fed her 2 cups at once before due to missing her lunch if I had to go out, she finishes the 2 cups, has a pot belly, and then waggles around as if she ate too much (like a drunk person, really) and starts burping... like a drunk person... I was told to avoid increasing her food for a few weeks because Fromm was a lot more nutritious than Purina. 



carmspack said:


> the dog is always with you , but no one knows how the two of you relate - and you constantly watch the dog - that isn't fun for you and it isn't fun for the dog .


I'll admit, I've been feeling miserable once I started realizing that I'm doing all the work. 



carmspack said:


> are you in a house , do you have a yard , are you able to put a little safe kennel outside for the dog


Yes, we have a house, and a fenced yard. We probably could put a kennel outside, but hubby doesn't want to spend money on that either...

The 2 arrows point to the two different yards where there are 2 dogs on each yard. So when they're out and she goes out to do her business or whatever, they rush to the fence and start barking and hollering. 








I keep her on a long chain attached to that yellow clothes line above the 2nd arrow, so she can't reach the back fence to have a barking match or anything like that. We do that because the yard behind the garage is not safe for her at this time. Previous occupants left behind a very old pond and other stuff that we haven't had the time to clear (since hubby works all the time right now - seasonal job). I myself have only been in the country since late February... She doesn't seem interested in barking back though, she just watches them, then comes back into the house.

Thanks for all the videos, I will look through them. I found a thread that said trainers sometimes accept trades, instead of the usual money for lessons... What kind of items would they usually want? I'm pretty good at crafting stuff, and perhaps this will give me access to an in-home trainer? How would I look for such a trainer anyway?


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## Magwart

Buying a cheap puppy from a sketchy character in a parking lot saves money in the short term, but it means that you have to spend more money later on trainers (and possibly veterinarians, but we won't worry about that now). Tell hub that he cheaped out on the purchase by not getting the pup with post-adoption support built into the price, so now he gets to spend the money on training. This is a consequence of his choice.

The vast majority of young GSDs that we get into breed rescue in my area come in between 6-18 months, with stories and issues like your pup's. Once they get big and stop being cute, the owners tend to give up on them. They get turned into lovely dogs in an experience foster home in about a month. It's that easy once you know the right thing to do. Until you know, though, you need to pay someone to help you. 
However, some of them _need_ an experienced owner, not a newbie with no access to training resources -- the whole point of breed rescue is working with someone who knows the difference between a "great first dog" and a "dog for an experienced handler," and has the courage to say "no" to an inappropriate match.

Had you gone through a good rescue and been patient, you'd have likely been matched with a dog appropriate to your skill set, and had all the follow-up support you could have wanted -- people who adopt my foster dogs can call me at 2AM when the dog vomits and they're not sure if they need an emergency vet, and we make post-adoption visits upon request to help with troubleshooting any issues, large or small. Yes, you have to be patient to be approved, and yes, we are careful about selecting people we want this kind of relationship with! Good rescues ask for all that info because they want a good match -- and they say N-O when we think it's a terrible match. You'd have also likely had that same kind of support from a reputable breeder had you spent what a well bred dog costs. Many of them ask as many questions as rescues do and are just as willing to decline to place a pup in an inappropriate home. Both good breeders and rescues take dogs back if it doesn't work out, so neither wants to set a pup up for a return. Having both been too impatient for a well-matched rescue, and not wanting to spend the money to go through a good breeder who could have selected an appropriate pet pup, now you have to pay the piper with an excellent trainer to undo what's already gone wrong.

Tell hub he bought himself this problem, so now he has to step up and pay what it costs to fix things and make it right. This can still work out, but you NEED access to a trainer to help you build confidence in yourself, timing, and appropriate methods for this individual dog. You are making a great effort, and accomplishing some very good things by watching videos, but you need some in-person guidance, by someone who can put eyes on the dog.

Will he let you join an obedience club? Maybe if you tell him that you'd like a hobby? It's a wonderful hobby -- and clubs nearly always have many classes, as well as experienced mentors you can befriend and ask to stop by for coffee/tea to help you with the dog. Can you sell crafts on Etsy to pay for training?


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## LuvShepherds

Magwart said:


> Buying a cheap puppy from a sketchy character in a parking lot saves money in the short term, but it means that you have to spend more money later on trainers (and possibly veterinarians, but we won't worry about that now). Tell hub that he cheaped out on the purchase by not getting the pup with post-adoption support built into the price, so now he gets to spend the money on training. This is a consequence of his choice.
> 
> The vast majority of young GSDs that we get into breed rescue in my area come in between 6-18 months, with stories and issues like your pup's. Once they get big and stop being cute, the owners tend to give up on them. They get turned into lovely dogs in an experience foster home in about a month. It's that easy once you know the right thing to do. Until you know, though, you need to pay someone to help you.
> However, some of them _need_ an experienced owner, not a newbie with no access to training resources -- the whole point of breed rescue is working with someone who knows the difference between a "great first dog" and a "dog for an experienced handler," and has the courage to say "no" to an inappropriate match.
> 
> Had you gone through a good rescue and been patient, you'd have likely been matched with a dog appropriate to your skill set, and had all the follow-up support you could have wanted -- people who adopt my foster dogs can call me at 2AM when the dog vomits and they're not sure if they need an emergency vet, and we make post-adoption visits upon request to help with troubleshooting any issues, large or small. Yes, you have to be patient to be approved, and yes, we are careful about selecting people we want this kind of relationship with! Good rescues ask for all that info because they want a good match -- and they say N-O when we think it's a terrible match. You'd have also likely had that same kind of support from a reputable breeder had you spent what a well bred dog costs. Many of them ask as many questions as rescues do and are just as willing to decline to place a pup in an inappropriate home. Both good breeders and rescues take dogs back if it doesn't work out, so neither wants to set a pup up for a return. Having both been too impatient for a well-matched rescue, and not wanting to spend the money to go through a good breeder who could have selected an appropriate pet pup, now you have to pay the piper with an excellent trainer to undo what's already gone wrong.
> 
> Tell hub he bought himself this problem, so now he has to step up and pay what it costs to fix things and make it right. This can still work out, but you NEED access to a trainer to help you build confidence in yourself, timing, and appropriate methods for this individual dog. You are making a great effort, and accomplishing some very good things by watching videos, but you need some in-person guidance, by someone who can put eyes on the dog.


You are right, but rescue applications are complex for good reasons and not everyone who applies gets approved. One GSD rescue volunteer came to my house and wanted to see my whole house, my bedrooms, my yard, my bathrooms and even my closets. That is very intrusive, but I let them because I wanted a dog. Not everyone can afford training, either. Then you ask, why get a dog, but that train has left the station. Dogs are expensive. Trainers are expensive.


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## Feathers

Thanks, Magwart. Even I didn't like that he decided to buy a cheap puppy from a website that looked sketchy like Craigslist. I told him long before we started looking for a puppy that I didn't want to support puppy mills and that was the whole reason why I started looking at adoption agencies. I even found pure bred GSD puppies from other agencies and almost the whole litter was females (he wanted female). But that meant more adoption request forms, more rules because different agency, more waiting and more "annoying visits". He was the one with the money too, so when he made up his mind, I gave up saying anything else and figured I would try to give the puppy the best life she can have because otherwise, she may have ended up in a worse situation. He even told me "they're already born" when I rejected the idea of a pet shop puppy.

What's an obedience club? As for Etsy, I have no idea if I'm permitted to sell things anywhere. Right now, I'm not a pr and don't have a work permit. Probably won't have one until next year, with how slow the government is being... I'm worried about even being a volunteer, as I had thought about volunteering at one of the adoption agencies I was looking at, just to keep busy... Instead, I found myself keeping busy by over-watching the puppy we bought...

Pretty much, I don't want to get deported...


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## Heartandsoul

Op, you said that you don't spend much time playing with her. Appropriate play time during puppyhood is one of the strongest ways a person can start that all important bond and that bond is going to be what helps get you and your pup through the difficult periods. 

dont think of training as training, think of it as playing. Have fun with it. Shepherds crave human interaction the give and take kind that playing satisfies. 

I wish you all the best outcome.


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## Feathers

I don't really play with her because I was trying to encourage appropriate self entertainment, to prepare her for times when she is left alone for a long time. I didn't want to end up being one of those owners who came home to ruined furniture or clothes or her own dog bed. I didn't want to crate her forever either, as 12+hours in a crate is ridiculous. 

I never thought to see training as playing though. I'll give that a try, thanks. I think because I've been so anxious myself, I've been letting my temper and frustration get in the way of making things fun...


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## Cassidy's Mom

Feathers said:


> I don't really play with her because I was trying to encourage appropriate self entertainment, to prepare her for times when she is left alone for a long time.


:thinking: Did someone warn you that that could happen? I've never heard of such a thing, and logically, it doesn't even make sense. Play will help with your bond, and a strong bond will help with training. My dogs enjoy playing with me and each other but can also entertain themselves and are fine left alone when we're not here. 



> I didn't want to end up being one of those owners who came home to ruined furniture or clothes or her own dog bed. I didn't want to crate her forever either, as 12+hours in a crate is ridiculous.


Some puppies are destructive and some are not. Some grow out of it and some don't. I don't think there's a lot you can do about that besides safely containing her when you're not able to directly supervise. We've had puppies where we can leave shoes on the floor as young as 3 or 4 months old and they wouldn't chew them, and I have an 8-1/2 year old that will still steal potholders off the kitchen counter and chew them because they smell like food. She has a taste for toilet paper too, although she hasn't eaten any in awhile - FINALLY! More typically, they grow out of destructive chewing by the time they're a year to a year and a half old. 



> I never thought to see training as playing though. I'll give that a try, thanks. I think because I've been so anxious myself, I've been letting my temper and frustration get in the way of making things fun...


If you're not having fun, she's not having fun. The more you can both enjoy training, the better. There are lots of ways you can build training into fun activities.


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## Muskeg

Stop listening to whoever is telling you to never have fun with your puppy. She's a beautiful girl and she sounds to me like she has a lot of potential. It's wonderful she is people friendly- work with that and build in control as she gets older, but that shows good natural temperament. 

Puppies are a hassle to older dogs, that's what they do. Find some younger dogs for her to play with who will enjoy her play style.

I feed my dogs two meals a day for life. Switch to that schedule. What I do with kibble is soak it for about five minutes before feeding. I add a bit of yogurt, give the dogs their bowls, and walk away. I've never had resource guarding problems. I make sure each dog has a safe place to eat. 

Take her out to a place she can romp off leash safely each day. Maybe the schoolyard now that school is out. Or a park, or the lakefront. Have her wear a long line if there are no fences. Work on her recall and keep it fun. Let her be a puppy, and do puppy things. 

Be very careful with expectations. Expectations= reality. For example, studies show that if teachers are told certain students will perform well, those students do. It's all about setting a student- or a dog- up to succeed, not fail. If you are constantly expecting the dog to be trouble as she grows up, you are setting her up to fail. I've started down that road myself, with one of my dogs- thinking he's just be too much for me- but was able to turn it around. Expect GOOD things and good behavior, and you'll do the things that set that dog up to succeed. This is simplified, but to a large extent is very true when working with any form of intelligent life.


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## Feathers

I read somewhere a long time ago that that could happen, yeah. She used to chew carpets and attempted power cords, but because I was watching her so closely, she learned not to do that quickly enough. She hasn't tried chewing on shoes, though apparently liked napping in them... And she has attempted chewing on her bed because the materials used were the same as the one on her previous squeaky toy. She learned pretty quickly that I didn't like that either though and I haven't seen her attempt it again. I want to one day be able to let her roam the whole house without needing supervision. Do they really grow out of it? I've read about so many adult dogs having destructive behaviors still...

Thanks for the support, Muskeg. I've been meaning to take her to a nearby park for a while now. Perhaps I will try that when I acquire a long line.

I'm going to ask my lawyer to see if volunteering is okay for me. If so, would rescues allow me to bring her along when I volunteer at them? They tend to have quite a number of young playful dogs she can romp with


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## Magwart

Obedience clubs have many different structures. Some you pay a small fee, then pay per class. Some you pay a monthly membership fee, and all classes are then free. Some waive fees for volunteers who help set up for the classes and act as support for the instructor. 

I think joining a club is especially important for you because you are a new immigrant and you will enjoy meeting people and developing friends and social support. You and your dog both will benefit from getting out into the world and living life. If your hub won't spend money on the dog, perhaps he will spend it on YOU and helping you develop new friends?

Here are some links to get you started:
Michigan Dog Clubs (scroll down for the obedience list)

http://www.smotc.org/smotc2015_009.html 
(this one looks like it's not too far from you -- and they do STAR puppy, advanced puppy, 3 levels of obedience, 2 levels of rally, and CGC -- lots of things to keep on doing!)
Classes2

In fact, I see on their website that *this weekend* (today and tomorrow), this club is participating the the Detroit KC show, with an obedience ring event. Can you convince your hub to go watch the obedience event as an outing tomorrow, perhaps? If he sees with his own eyes what this training produces in rally and obedience competitions, perhaps he would be excited to have you get involved!
Events

(Note: Please leave the pup at home if you go to watch this event. This isn't an appropriate first outing.)


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## Muskeg

Volunteering is a great idea! That would have so many benefits for you and your dog. Also, I know it would help your mental state. Being home alone is no fun for you either! 

I don't know if people have posted links to some good training videos you can check out while you seek a trainer. But my favorites are Larry Krohn, Stonnie Dennis, and "Take the Lead" training with Jamie Penrith. I like Jamie because he clearly explains a lot of the basics of dog training. Once you understand how a dog learns, you can train anything. I like all three because they are successful trainers, and because they all genuinely like dogs. You can find them all on YouTube. 

I had my pup in an x-pen unless I was engaged and playing with her or watching her closely for the first (I think) four months. Basically until she was fully housetrained. You might want to think about getting one, they are not expensive. That way the pup can know when it is play time, and when it is time to rest. My pup is 7.5 months old now, and I can leave her loose in the house when I leave for work but only recently. 

Find out about volunteering. I think that will really make a difference for you both!


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## Feathers

Oh, I never knew there was a list of dog clubs online! Sad though, a lot of the links of potentially nearby places are down. Seems like only 2 clubs have working links, with Sportsmen's being closer than SMOTC. We won't be able to make it to SMOTC's show though, he's working tonight and tomorrow night as well. He managed to get himself stuck in night shift for a couple weeks -_-

I'll email them and find out how they work! Thanks!

I found a couple of fencing used for creeper plants that we don't really want (I'm guessing they were used by previous occupants), perhaps I can use them and her cage to fashion an x-pen! I know what he will already say about buying an x-pen, he doesn't even want to get a larger cage when he was the one who made the mistake of buying a medium cage... *sigh* Husbands don't shop very well, do they?


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## Steve Strom

There's and old trick for motivating dogs Feathers. Its called deprivation. We husbands are pretty easily motivated with it too.


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## Feathers

Deprivation how? Don't do this and no kisses? XD


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## Steve Strom

Feathers said:


> Deprivation how? Don't do this and no kisses? XD


Well, I was thinking food. Eat dinner in front of him till he decides to help you with this, but I guess there could be other things too.


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## carmspack

feathers said 
" I think because I've been so anxious myself, I've been letting my temper and frustration get in the way "

so you have disappointment to add to the emotions "I thought we were BOTH going to handle the dog, like take evening walks together, train her together" just like in some cheesy movie .

that was the trailer that got you to buy the ticket . Once you were in your seat the movie started and " Turns out, I feed her, I walk her, I train her, I let her out and at first, I clean up her accidents. "
what happened did I walk into the wrong show? 

feathers "Basically, he wakes up, teases her, goes to work, comes home, plays with her, goes to sleep... and repeat."
Elsewhere you said he works too much, works all the time . For what?

not good enough . You're worried how the dog CAN be , look at the big picture and see what it CAN be based on the sketch or outline you know about now ----- 
I can see by your situation why you are anxious and don't feel you have agency , to have some fair requests met .

disappointment "I'll admit, I've been feeling miserable once I started realizing that I'm doing all the work."
if you think on having kids - the dog is a good conversation starter to iron out some issues !
you can re-home a dog - not so much kids .

you have a nice yard , nice car -- guy works all the time --- " We probably could put a kennel outside, but hubby doesn't want to spend money on that either " . Apparently he is tight with the budget when it comes to good food for the dog.
"this" dog was bought on impulse . "A" dog was available , Price reasonable . End of story. 

If you have only been here since Feb you haven't had the chance to make friends - not on-line, find your support group, your employment and all the other things for a full and healthy life .
That makes it all the more important for the "hubby" to be more supportive - give you the resources to provide for the dog , the house , and yourself 

Okay -- dog might be alright , probably alright , so far I see the problems are being created in an attempt to
pre-empt a problem in the future . \In an effort to not have resource guarding you are creating food aggression, resource guarding .
In an effort to have a dog that can behave in the house while you are away you don't connect or play with the dog .
You want the dog to self-entertain . But that is not the nature of "the dog" . They are social animals that co-operate and want interaction , bonding , and appreciation . They need connection and to be played with , worked with.

Cats do well with entertaining themselves -- dogs not so much - and if they do it is usually trouble.

This is the best time to forge that bond , work with and TRAIN the dog . By not doing so in an attempt to avoid a future problem - you are creating a problem . 
You assumed that puppy classes , some training was part of the agenda .
Insist on it . 

here is something to look at though 
"She is VERY social, she loves people, always friendly approach. She enjoys jumping on people and licking them, and mostly, people allow it because they think it's cute. Again here: I see the possibility of the attack dog, others see the fluff ball that is "dawwwwwsoadorableawwyougivingmekisse"

very social is better than not . You have to teach her to sit quietly - I know you said elsewhere that it was hard to get a picture because she is so wiggly -- but that is typical normal pup --- but don't be afraid and make her calm down and NOT have the admirer make contact with the pup. You do NOT want her jumping on people . Don't allow it because she is a puppy and cute and people don't mind . All training should be guidance into what you want her to be like as an adult . You don't want to have to correct a large strong dog of a breed that is unsettling and intimidating 
to people who will have a totally different reaction to "friendly jumping and licking" !

Your dog . If they are offended , that is too bad . You can still do it with sensitivity


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## Feathers

Thanks Carmspack for the laugh. Yes, it does feel like a movie gone wrong! My husband works in construction, creating asphalt for the roads of Detroit. Hence all the night shifts too. He wasn't very busy in Spring, when we bought the dog, but now that it's Summer, he's pretty much just working non-stop. Apparently, the past winter has been very harsh on the roads... I'm guessing we're on a budget right now because travelling to Malaysia and then paying to have ME migrate here, was a bit heavy on his savings. It wasn't just the plane tickets, there were immigration fees too... yikes!

We're also both very diy, and so the thought of buying anything that we can make ourselves for MUCH cheaper, is not appeasing. This probably goes with the training as well. I have a feeling he doesn't actually MIND my desire to go for training, but I think he would much rather wait until end of the year, when he's less busy and have built his savings back up. 

I'm starting to understand better about what motivates a dog, thanks to you guys. She is less tense about meal times now and I just managed to knock her out solid by playing fetch the ball with her! It was quite nice to see that she is willingly giving me the ball each time, instead of running away with the ball in her mouth, as she usually did! I'm quite happy with how the day is ending, as it started very frustrating again (she had a poop accident, which was super rare...). I even managed to convince hubby to let me order a Doggone Good treat bag as recommended by Cassidy's Mom! (It was free though, hehe gift cards!) It will arrive on Monday and hopefully, I can put in a lot of training bits here and there throughout the day without crinkling any plastic bags. I'm feeling hopeful again! 

She even has a lovely waistline now, though it could do with a lot more feeding! She is doing excellent on Fromm! Thanks for helping me get out of my misery! And here she is, in all her glory!


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## carmspack

excellent news !

good looking dog .

this experience will change the game for both of you -

"She is less tense about meal times now and I just managed to knock her out solid by playing fetch the ball with her! It was quite nice to see that she is willingly giving me the ball each time "


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## Feathers

Thought I'd give you guys an update...

So Aiya isn't doing very well on the food aggression front. I've been leaving her alone to eat, but she still acts as if we were gonna starve her everytime we moved while she was eating. Walking AWAY, she was fine. I walk away, sit down and then just the act of getting up to do something (like taking the tv remote from the coffee table), and she attacks her bowl. I go to another room, happen to step out of the room while she was still eating, she attacks her bowl. Hubby has been attempting to feed her more often, she still growls at him. 

Last weekend, just before 4th of July, we went to visit my in-laws. Aiya gets carsick, so I packed up her dinner to feed her there rather than have it all vomited into my lap in the car. We get there, I feed her, she finishes. I go to throw the ziplock bag, turn around and she's attacking Lucky's food (they use food dispensers). With a vengeance. And of course, all I've done to "leave her alone" was thrown out the window as I HAD to stop her. For one, that was Purina Dog Chow, the adult version of the food we stopped feeding Aiya. Two, because it was a food dispenser, if I had left her alone to eat what wasn't HER food, she would've attempted to finish EVERYTHING in there. She's back to being tense at feeding times. I've already changed her schedule to twice a day, with 1 and 3/4 cup each meal. She is ~40kg at 5 months old, so 3 and 1/2 cup a day is in fact a bit more than what was recommended by the bag.

Now I'm no longer sure if it's fear of not being able to eat or if it's pure starving hunger pangs. She's doing amazing on Fromm, her waistline is beautiful (though I wouldn't mind if she was chubbier) and the vet seems to think she is the perfect weight right now. She looks healthy and everything... And she still eats crazily... I'm not even talking about speed here, I'm talking "viciously attacking bowl". She's grabbing large handfuls of kibble, opening her jaws as wide as she can, I would say her nose might be bruised by how she's stabbing it against the bowl.

Hubby wants to increase her food to 4 cups a day, but I want to get the vet's opinion first when we take her in for her rabies shot next week. I'd also like to know what you guys think about the risks of overfeeding and hip dysplasia (or any other bone related problems)? How do I know it's overfeeding? How do I know it's UNDERfeeding?

I unfortunately didn't get results on joining an obedience club either. Of the 2 clubs whose links worked and have training centers nearby, only 1 responded back and they will only start classes in September. Becoming a member also required me to actually attend (and of course, pay for), an 8 week class, which I wouldn't mind besides the fact that it was only in September... 

I'm also not hopeful about being able to volunteer at a rescue or shelter. My lawyer gave me a list of rules for legally volunteering and the only non-profit organisation that has an actual facility nearby, are now paying some of their staff. So they're no longer a group made entirely of volunteers. I emailed them asking if the jobs they usually gave volunteers are now paid jobs or if it was more like roles that dealt with other stuff like finance department or whatever... no reply... All other nearby rescues don't have facilities and rely on fosters as volunteers, which probably would be a bad idea for me to do with a food aggressive puppy...

I really don't want to end up with a dog that can potentially harm a child if said child happens to go near the dog while she's eating... Especially after knowing how clingy hubby's niece gets with every dog, especially Aiya, since she's a puppy. I wouldn't be surprised to catch that very niece attempting to hug and snuggle Aiya while she's trying to eat. Why she would do that, I have no idea. Harassment comes to mind with that girl...

If I were to seriously consider hiring a trustworthy in-home trainer, how do I go about searching for one?


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## dogfaeries

How old is she? And how much does she eat right now? Does she eat in a crate?


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## Heartandsoul

Feathers, I had a thought that may get you connected to some top trainers. There is a program called Vest a Dog that is I believe all volunteer. It's a program that raises money and awareness of how important police k9s are and how important it is to provide bullet proof vests for these dogs and also ORT her necessary equipment and help.

Even though the link says Massachusetts, it provides a nationwide list. I clicked on one organization to see if they accept volunteers and they do so it may be worth your while to look at the link and check for the state you are in. Links & K-9 Vesting Programs across the USA - Massachusetts Vest-a-Dog, Inc.. Maybe some of the links in this link will satisfy the volunteer guidelines that you have to follow

Early you stated that you were thinking about checking with your police dept. I think it was in one of your first threads prior to this one. Sometimes when one speaks from the gut and follows that thought, opportunities open up. 

I can tell you that following my gut with issues with my boy has lead me to opportunities and help that may never have occured.

Just a thought I wanted to share with you.


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## carmspack

do you have to be there when you feed the dog?
Put the dog into a room , put the food down , close the door , go away.
You are still there monitoring things.

A problem was created .

never mind her waistline , and keeping her skinny to protect her hips , or the recommended portions on your kibble label , FEED the dog . 
you said "still acts as if we were gonna starve her everytime" 
others and I have questioned whether the dog was ever satisfied - food too precious .

you were lucky beyond belief that when your dog moved on to eating the other dogs food from the
dispenser that the other dog wasn't there or you would have had a serious problem .

does the dog get any essential fatty acids? She is craving something .


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## dogfaeries

I agree with Carmen. Feed the dog in a room by herself. Give her the food, and then get out of there. I don't know how old your puppy is now, 4-5 months?), but feed her more food. If she's eating 3 cups, then give her 4. My current puppy has been eating 4-5 cups a day for quite a while, with no loose stools. She'll eventually taper off to 3, but right now she just needs more food.


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## Feathers

Thanks HeartandSoul. Saginaw Valley is very far from where I am in MI, but I'll email and ask about volunteer opportunities. I was kinda joking about going to the nearest police department, but you think that might be a good idea? I have no idea how they would react to my asking for help with dog training though, wouldn't they just laugh at me?

This is roughly the layout of my house.








I don't monitor her anymore, and yes, I often completely leave her alone after putting the food down. The thing is, she goes crazy upon HEARING me step out of room 1 or 2 into the hallway. She can't see me from either room doorways. I can't see her either, I just hear her start stabbing her nose into the bowl. I have even tried disappearing into the hallway, but just standing there absolutely still... she eats normal... Take one step, she goes crazy. I have also often found myself watching tv when it was time to feed her, so I pause, get up, give her the food, sit back down and continue my show. 

We don't want to put her in any room because they're all carpeted. The cage is now too small for her to comfortably eat in there. I would ask if moving her bowls to behind the banister where neither of us can see the other would help, but she seem to react to sound as well? Strangely enough, if I feed her and don't actually leave the kitchen, she eats normal too. Yes, even when watching her eat. She only reacts if I stand still, then suddenly move. But if I'm constantly moving around in the kitchen (like washing dishes or cooking), she's not bothered. She doesn't seem to react very strongly when I move towards the baby gate (well, towards her), so I find all this very strange!

I should say Lucky's food is "Lucky's and Cuddles's food". They both share from the same food dispenser, so both don't seem bothered by Aiya taking their food. It's happened before too, way back when we only just bought her. So I won't get any problems from the older dogs, it's Aiya whom worries me. While the older dogs aren't worried about their food being eaten, if Aiya starts thinking that was HER bowl and HER food... Well, Aiya would most likely be seriously injured...

I don't understand how I would find out if she is ever fully satisfied, the only way I know is to just put a mountain pile of kibble in her bowl and let her eat her heart out, but obviously, that's bad? Or should I do that?

What are essential fatty acids to a dog? Besides her kibble, she gets many rawhides and the occasional Zuke's Mini Naturals as treats. Should there be more? I've never heard of dogs needing more than that food wise.

Dogfaeries, she just turned 5 months old now.


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## Feathers

Just did a further read on the only MI (Saginaw Valley) link, I don't think they accept any volunteers. Only thing on their website about helping out is to donate. Urgh, since when did wanting to become a volunteer get so hard...


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## carmspack

do yourself a favour and do not give any rawhides - not big , not mini .

this )quote below ) is a problem that you created with your efforts to have her not food aggressive and playing the sneaky games 

"The thing is, she goes crazy upon HEARING me step out of room 1 or 2 into the hallway. She can't see me from either room doorways. I can't see her either, I just hear her start stabbing her nose into the bowl. I have even tried disappearing into the hallway, but just standing there absolutely still... she eats normal.."

"I should say Lucky's food is "Lucky's and Cuddles's food". They both share from the same food dispenser, so both don't seem bothered by Aiya taking their food. It's happened before too, way back when we only just bought her. So I won't get any problems from the older dogs, it's Aiya whom worries me. While the older dogs aren't worried about their food being eaten, if Aiya starts thinking that was HER bowl and HER food... Well, Aiya would most likely be seriously injured."

you know what is coming .

you pretty much said so . 

why so many problems involving some basics around food? 

the Lucky and Cuddles food is THEIR food. They have a co-operative understanding about sharing the food between them.. 
Along comes the canine food vacuum , Alya, who helps herself . The older dogs aren't going to defend the resource as they are satisfied -- pretty much free feeding .
Alya is the one who will fight for the bowl of food . That has been the history so far. She would initiate the fight and the older dogs would be the ones getting damaged. 

This or vice versa -- should not be , no reason . Yet another set up for tension when eating .

The drawing of your home shows that the bowls are placed in the doorway (baby-gates) between the kitchen and living room .
That's not private and it's not conducive to relaxing when eating . Move the bowls to the other side - away from the thorough fare . 

Does the dog ever get outside? Can you feed outside?


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## Feathers

Are rawhides bad? 

I really don't know why so many problems! At this point, I'm just... wishing for a miracle or something... Wishing that the hubby is right and that all this is just a "puppy phase" and it'll disappear in a couple months time... Wishing he would win the lottery and I can hire a trainer to help me with this! I don't know if she stopped progressing because of that one incident with Lucky's food, or if it's because the hubby is trying to help out (he's not really leaving her alone to eat though...)

Since it worked with the older dogs, should I do free feeding too? What about raising the bowls? I mean, they're already slightly raised, but would it help to raise it further, change her body position when eating so she's not crouched over her bowl? 

Her bowls were put there because that was the best place to place her cage, so we just put them all together against the wall. I'll see if moving them to behind the banister will help. And yes, she goes outside, I have fed her outside before. She seemed to eat in an even more frantic way outside though, so I stopped.


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## Heartandsoul

carmspack said:


> do yourself a favour and do not give any rawhides - not big , not mini .
> 
> this )quote below ) is a problem that you created with your efforts to have her not food aggressive and playing the sneaky games
> 
> "The thing is, she goes crazy upon HEARING me step out of room 1 or 2 into the hallway. She can't see me from either room doorways. I can't see her either, I just hear her start stabbing her nose into the bowl. I have even tried disappearing into the hallway, but just standing there absolutely still... she eats normal.."
> 
> "I should say Lucky's food is "Lucky's and Cuddles's food". They both share from the same food dispenser, so both don't seem bothered by Aiya taking their food. It's happened before too, way back when we only just bought her. So I won't get any problems from the older dogs, it's Aiya whom worries me. While the older dogs aren't worried about their food being eaten, if Aiya starts thinking that was HER bowl and HER food... Well, Aiya would most likely be seriously injured."
> 
> you know what is coming .
> 
> you pretty much said so .
> 
> why so many problems involving some basics around food?
> 
> the Lucky and Cuddles food is THEIR food. They have a co-operative understanding about sharing the food between them..
> Along comes the canine food vacuum , Alya, who helps herself . The older dogs aren't going to defend the resource as they are satisfied -- pretty much free feeding .
> Alya is the one who will fight for the bowl of food . That has been the history so far. She would initiate the fight and the older dogs would be the ones getting damaged.
> 
> This or vice versa -- should not be , no reason . Yet another set up for tension when eating .
> 
> The drawing of your home shows that the bowls are placed in the doorway (baby-gates) between the kitchen and living room .
> That's not private and it's not conducive to relaxing when eating . Move the bowls to the other side - away from the thorough fare .
> 
> Does the dog ever get outside? Can you feed outside?


Feathers, I have quoted Carmens response because with all the extra questions you asked after she posted, about height of bowl and change of body position, free feeding, is very concerning. Why are you thinking of things that are going to change how she eats, when the very good advice is to put the food in the bowl, put it down and leave her alone to eat in peace? Also very concerning is that you indicate that dh "is not really leaving her alone still."

These instructions are not difficult to follow. 

In response to your question about whether or not your PD would laugh at you if you asked them about a trainer, I don't think so but I honestly do not know, I guess it would all depend on how you approached the subject with them. I personally have had very good conversation with officers and a K-9 unit officer. I make it a point to shake hands with foot patrol officers while walking my boy. It is the chit chat conversations that can lead to info about trainers. 

My experience is limited with main issues of her eating and at this point needs to be the main focus. Imho.


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## Magwart

If hub won't leave the dog alone in the kitchen, can you instead feed her in a back bedroom, ideally in a plastic crate (with walls, not wire)? Close the BR door, and you then can stand guard duty outside the door -- tell hub to go away until the dog is finished. This feels like a human training problem.

My old, blind dog used to worry about other dogs stealing his food. We set up a crate in our bedroom for him to dine in. The other dogs eat in the other end of the house. He's totally alone in the bedroom at mealtime -- he can take his time, and the experience is peaceful and safe for him. We sometimes find him napping in that crate with the door open, when he wants peace and quiet -- he knows it's his sanctuary.


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## Feathers

I asked about those extra questions BECAUSE the hubby has been helping out... I mean, that was what I wanted from the beginning! But he can be so stubborn, like most men I've met... I've told him many times to leave her alone once he puts her food down and he still tries to pet her! I haven't touched her or been NEAR her when she eats besides leaving/entering the kitchen or passing that baby gate from hallway to living room and vice versa. Would standing guard outside the door be considered "sneaking around" as Carmspack put it? I agree that this is more a human training problem, as I've been doing my best to leave her alone and teach her all the right behaviours... (and I know it's far from enough, I don't have this kind of training experience) then hubby comes in and throws them out the window. She thinks twice about jumping up on me since the beginning, but turns hubby into a jungle gym and so far, he's done nothing to correct her besides yelling "Get down". When I try to correct her while she jumps on him, he tells me "I got it!".

We don't have a plastic full wall crate and I doubt he will let me buy one. I'll ask his sister-in-law if her crates are those type, see if I can borrow one though. In the meantime, can I create some sort of temporary play-pen and cover it all up with a tarp or blanket? I just measured the kitchen and it's not gonna be possible to switch her bowls to behind the banister due to layout and a huge glass table being there... The whole area feels open anyway.

But if a tarp covered play-pen is possible, I can create an area in the basement specifically to feed her, he doesn't care if anything down there gets destroyed, carpet included...


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## carmspack

"Would standing guard outside the door be considered "sneaking around" as Carmspack put it? "

sure , why not . Why do you have to be there . The dog is always anticipating something when eating .

Personally I don't think the time is right for a dog . The dog is going to bear the brunt of mismanagement .

You said before that when your husband comes home , or first thing in the morning, he likes to rile the dog up , play wrestling or some such activity . 

It doesn't work with two sets of rules in the house . He can't eliminate all inhibitions from the dog making contact with him , jungle gym style - and then he yells get down -- eventually over time as he grows larger - anger and frustration will be there - but not effective .

play pen with a tarp ? not a good idea , and you should care that something gets damaged because that destructive behaviour will become a habit.

the tarp will be off in seconds -- yet if you have to get her out to take her to potty the time delay in you disassembling it will result in her having an accident - another potential habit 

don't waste your money on a trainer. They can't give any advice not already given here -- for free ! 

your husband has to provide you with the means to deal with this dog's needs - that includes good food , 
training classes and accommodation kennel and crate.

if you don't then all efforts will be like gluing feathers to a donkey and hoping it will fly . Futile.


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## Steve Strom

Its not a matter of some physical barrier. Its the dogs perception of whats going on around its meal, and some dogs look at it more like a survival instinct then just "Oh Boy, its food" My 8 year old attacks his food, the bowl goes all over the yard or kennel, wherever I feed him. Just ignore whatever she's doing, give her space until she's done and settles down. I think in your dogs mind, from the way you describe it, its a little like this:


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## Feathers

She's not as vocal or frantic as those 2 dogs, though that is kinda what I fear will happen the older she gets. So what you're saying is that to some dogs, if they don't finish their bowls in 5 seconds, they won't ever get to eat later?

Carmspack, I definitely care if something gets destroyed, it's the husband who doesn't care about the basement because most of the things down there aren't his. As for the pen with tarp, I mean only to feed her, not put her there all day or all night. So like, leave her down there in the pen for 5-10 minutes? I dunno, that's the only thing I can think of that will simulate a closed crate using items I already have at hand. She's already able to hold her bladder/bowels for 8 hours at a time, I don't think she'll have an accident within 10 minutes of putting her down there...


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## WIBackpacker

Carmspack, Magwart and others have offered some really good calm common sense. 

If if isn't easy or reasonable to create a private spot for her to eat in your home, rather than making a contrived pen with tarps and such (which I agree, could easily be torn up or confuse the dog).... 

Why don't you simply put her bowl of food in front of her, turn your back, leave the house. Go for a walk around the block, drink a cup of coffee on your deck with a book. Don't worry about timing her, just leave her alone. 

This won't cost you a dime, and you can't be stressing her out or pressuring her if you're simply not there. Let her eat in peace.


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## Feathers

That's an interesting thought... though what would that do to her separation anxiety? Her anxiety is the other thing I haven't been able to get rid of, she HATES it when we leave the house without her...


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## WIBackpacker

It's hard to say. It sounds like there's a lot on the table here. But sometimes a simple solution solves the problem.

If she loves her food, why not try setting it down and leaving the house.

This can also give you some peace and quiet time alone, to NOT worry about the dog. Relax and spend a little time walking/reading/gardening, doing something for yourself. When you get back home, don't make a big deal saying hello, just walk past her and go back to whatever you were doing.


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## carmspack

". though what would that do to her separation anxiety? Her anxiety is the other thing I haven't been able to get rid of, she HATES it when we leave the house without her..."

how do you know? you're always "there" -- 

get a safe crate . Put her in it . Leave the house . GO! 

get away from the house, the dog, the things that stress you . Come back with a plan of action.

need money to manage care for the dog then ask for it - or consequences -- dog goes . 

Say it and mean it . 

While you are out of the house find some training club that you can participate in --- even if the only
option is the PetsMart .

no big teary drama when leaving and no home-coming parade when you return -- be real chill and blase -- don't rush to the dog and baby her -- you take her out when you are ready and I would put her straight outdoors to keep her habits clean .

everything on your terms .


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## Magwart

And take the husband out of the house with you!!!


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## Feathers

Oh, I've NEVER made homecoming or leaving a big deal. The hubby does, that's the reason why I never got rid of it. I know she gets upset because the moment she watches us put on shoes or take our keys or bag or coat... Anything that indicates we're going out, she hollers down the house and continues long after we leave. Every morning when hubby goes to work, I end up tossing in bed because she whines and whimpers for a whole hour! 

Honestly, I think what I need to do before even attempting to do anything with her... Is to have a long talk with the hubby this weekend. No more running off to his computer when he doesn't like what I have to say. Thinking back to all the months we've had her, I'm not the one who NEEDS to go to a training class, he does... Having the same bloody troubles as I had with my parents dogs because the parents can't follow instructions is starting to get on my nerves.


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## WIBackpacker

Feathers said:


> Honestly, I think what I need to do before even attempting to do anything with her... Is to have a long talk with the hubby this weekend. No more running off to his computer when he doesn't like what I have to say. Thinking back to all the months we've had her, I'm not the one who NEEDS to go to a training class, he does... Having the same bloody troubles as I had with my parents dogs because the parents can't follow instructions is starting to get on my nerves.


A strong (but kind) recommendation: have this conversation somewhere else. 

It's almost impossible to be objective and discuss "something" when that "something" is running around in front of you, whining or being an obnoxious distraction.

You'll be able to focus on the conversation instead of the dog in your face (and he can't run off to his computer).


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## Feathers

Thanks for the advice! That makes a lot of sense, I will drag his ass to dinner or something


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## carmspack

Feathers said:


> Thanks for the advice! That makes a lot of sense, I will drag his ass to dinner or something


lol --- more tension at dinner .


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## Heartandsoul

" I will drag his ass to dinner or something"

Many years ago very wise woman once said to me "always sandwich a negative between two positives". It was during a conversation about her son, my dh,, and I needed her advice on how to approach him on a conflict we were having.

I did write about some of my experiences pertaining to conflicts we had concerning our boy but sometimes less is more and the quote says it best anyway.


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