# Aggression in maturing dog (16 mos)- she bit me :(



## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

Ok, so Riley is apparently having dog aggression issues. There, I guess I finally admitted it. i don't even know what to call it, but its been getting worse. She barks and jumps when she sees another dog (usually if they are being walked) and we have a lot of aggressive dogs we have to pass in their yards as we go out for our walks, so its hard to know what is going on. I used to call it excitement because she usually tries to initiate play with other dogs but, depending on the other dog, it has been evolving to hair standing up, lunging, etc. (esp some of the dogs on our street that seem like they want to rip her to shreds through the fence). Even after the hair standing up, if i let her near a dog she usually goes into play mode (butt in the air tail wagging... like this...











Yesterday all the dogs happened to be out in their yards and they were all barking and lunging at us through their fences (2 in particular and there were 3 others adding to the barking noise). I got her to sit and tried to take a deep breath and gather myself- ideally i would have sat there and waited for her to calm down (probably would have been hours) before i moved, but my neighbors had yelled at me before for making their dogs bark. SO... i tried to pass the yards on the opposite side of the street. I was struggling with and she nipped me right in the thigh... ughh... i can't believe it!! 

So i know now that I need help in handling her and i should have probably gone for help sooner before she bit me







I tried to contact Control Unleashed (is it leslie?) but i have not had any returns on my emails, so it basically got put off. But now I need to nip it in the bud (no pun intended). 
*
So here is my quesiton- What do you think, should I go for more obedience classes or hire a private trainer for "corrective" training?*

Riley has interaction several times a week with a variety of dogs- most of the experiences are positive, otherwise they are neutral. Just this weekend she met new dogs on two separate occasions and both dogs played with her for hours with no incident. (both of the new dogs were young like her and male). She's gone through basic obedience before and we had no problems with the dogs in class (once they all got to know each other)

Perhaps she is maturing and something about being on leash incites her? We walk 2x a day and hike 3-4x a week so i really need to have control over her and it breaks my heart that she bit me.

i know she was't biting ME per say, (i was just whatever was there) but it really upset me! At this point i will do whatever, but i don't want to just do whatever. I found two very promising shutzhund trainers that seem to be appropriate near me- and I have asked them for their recommendation, but i wanted to see what everyone suggests here.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Sarah, I am so sorry this happened to you and to Riley! Take deep breaths. There will be an answer for this. You are doing all the right things with her, classes, play dates, etc... there will be a solution for this, I am sure. Good for you for addressing this right away here, too. You obviously care so much about Riley-girl!

I think I would wait on the Schutzhund trainer, wait on a pet dog trainer. For now, find one or two good _behaviorists_ who can evaluate Riley. She may not be truly dog-aggressive, but rather like the tyke in the check-out line who remembers not getting a candybar last time, pitches a royal fit when she sees the candybars this time. (other dogs) Barrier frustration like this can lead to such a displacement bite, because she was so worked up in her tantrum, and your motions kind of just got in the way.

You will find just the right professional to give you an accurate diagnosis of the problem, and help you with a gameplan that you can feel good about. Sending good vibes for you and Riley. I know this was scary! You are doing all the right things. Hang in there!


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## gsds_are_the_best (Feb 17, 2009)

This may help you 

Dog Whisperer GSD Dog Aggression


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am thinking this is more barrier frustration and redirected excitement. There is all sorts of built up bad energy happening there on their side of the fence and at the end of your leash. Understandable. I would hate to walk through your neighborhood!

But I wouldn't even call her nip on the thigh (because it's not MY thigh







) redirected aggression. Actually I wouldn't even if it was my thigh! 

I think for her, that walk is similar to what would happen if someone were to take us out on a leash so we couldn't get away, and take us to walk through-the most dangerous street in the most dangerous city in NJ, at the worst time of the night. Stressful. (or make us go to dinner with the Real Housewives of NJ-scary!)

Can you drive to a quieter spot to walk? And take a class for fun? I think she sounds good, really, and by reframing and treating the lesser problems, you may be better off than calling it something worse and overdoing?


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I would hire a private trainer, but it is important you can find a good one. Check with GSD clubs, breeders, perhap rescue groups, and the police if they have GSD's. Before hiring anyone do a bit of reseach.


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

Guys, thank you so much for the encouragement. i think "deep breaths" are a very good start, lol. I feel like i failed her somewhere (in my leadership?) to build up that much frustration, but I'm more than ready to fix that!

All night she knew something was wrong with me- she kept looking at me like "what's wrong momma?"- big sad eyes. I guess she sensed how upset I was. WOW the bite smarts!!! (its two punctures and some bruising, not too bad)

Well anyway, I think that I am definitely going to start with some "consults", have some one-on-one with a trainer (or behaviorist if I can find one) or two so they can assess her and see what they recommend. I am thinking it would be best to have them observe her here at home, so they can see what i'm dealing with!

I feel like a group class setting doesn't quite recreate the "stress" as Patti put it- Riley was fantastic in basic obedience and listens really well when she isn't in that high excited state. (and even when we were in the messy situation, we are able to get her to sit, so she listens- just no time to calm down or get her to focus)

Definitely a hard working girl I have on my hands- she's very alert and attentive! People warned me about Kirschental lines going to be a lot of work and it's been relatively smooth sailing so far... so it's about time where I had a real challenge, lol... that's the way I'm going to look at this







(she's one smart cookie, that's for sure) I'll keep you guys posted on my adventures. ::sigh::


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i just learned what a big difference there is between a trainer and a behaviorist. i'm thinking what you need is a behaviorist. doesn't sound like "aggression" per se to me. good luck!


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## wbzorker (Sep 11, 2008)

You've had some great advice here.

In the meantime, if you have to walk her past a stressful situation you could try training her to bite a big toy instead. Play with the toy at home and teach her a "grab" command. Take the toy on walks and have it ready so she can bite it instead of you to relieve the stress.

Definitely get some help. You're doing a great job!

Wendy


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

When you are on your walks and the other dogs are barking and lunging, don't stop. Keep her attention on you and keep moving. Also does she know the leave it command? I have taken my dogs to a shooting range and we have to walk past a kennel of 6 - 8 Chessie that are all upset because we are on their turf. They are charging the fence and raising you know what. I just tell my dog to leave it and we keep moving. If my dog is stressed, I don't want them under more stress as I am asking them to sit. If they want to fence fight back I am not giving them the opportunity, I am on the end of the leash and I am in charge.

I think part of your problem might be your handling skills. You are on the end of the leash be in charge. You are going for a walk, go for a walk, if you are concerned about the other dogs so will your dog.

Give it a try, it might work. If not then find someone to work with. 

Val


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree not to take her through death row. That is just over stimulating.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Hi Sarah,

Ouch! I agree that it's redirected aggression/arousal. This is actually more common in cats than dogs but it does happen with dogs too. Does Riley like balls or other toys? One fairly simple short term fix might be to train her to carry a ball or toy on the walk. I have to run the gauntlet with the bunnies around here (it's not uncommon to see upwards of 30 or 40 on my nighttime walks) and Rafi has very high prey drive. I notice that when he sees the bunnies and can't get to him he starts chomping very hard on his ball. I am glad that's not my thigh!!!!! Seriously, this is his version of redirecting that prey arousal and it also serves as a pacifier and job for him. He takes it very seriously! 

I am sorry that you have such a high stress walk. Is it possible to drive somewhere nearby and walk Riley there while you're working on counter-conditioning her? Because she's obviously already way over her threshold just walking out the door now and you've got to lower her anxiety to really be able to make progress.


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerI think part of your problem might be your handling skills. You are on the end of the leash be in charge. You are going for a walk, go for a walk, if you are concerned about the other dogs so will your dog.


Val,
Precisely! I know I have failed her in some department... that's why I'm seeking help immediately. I had tried to calm down and use the situation as an "opportunity" to train her, but obviously I did something (a lot) wrong. She gets so excited, and then I trip over her and the situation is just bad for all of us involved, lol. I feel like if I have some (proper) professional guidance I'll be more confident. At least I know what I was doing before isn't working, but I'm not sure what to change. I don't want to keep doing what I was doing and expect different results (definition of insanity, right?)


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowDoes Riley like balls or other toys? One fairly simple short term fix might be to train her to carry a ball or toy on the walk. I have to run the gauntlet with the bunnies around here (it's not uncommon to see upwards of 30 or 40 on my nighttime walks) and Rafi has very high prey drive. I notice that when he sees the bunnies and can't get to him he starts chomping very hard on his ball. I am glad that's not my thigh!!!!! Seriously, this is his version of redirecting that prey arousal and it also serves as a pacifier and job for him. He takes it very seriously!


She LOVES her frisbee(s) and any random stick, really, but she has tendency to drop them as soon as her excitement starts and i haven't found a way to redirect her back to the toy or treat with these houses in particular. I once saw a lab walking with a ball in his mouth and thought it was a pretty cool "job" to have and tried it with Riley, but she didn't take it very seriously. Even when she doesn't get to excited, is there a way to teach them to carry it the whole time? When she drops it, I usually stop and tell her to "pick up your toy/ stick" and she usually does, but drops it again. I think the concept of the "grab" command is a pretty good idea!!

I must say that her attention does get diverted with squirrels and bunnies, but she's waaaaaay improved in that department. "leave it" command helped! She doesn't try to lung after them or anything, unless there's a terribly close call (we had a ground hog pinned against a rock face when we turned a corner and all of us were mutally surprised! but we even got riley to sit in that situation) so that gives me a lot of hope with other dogs!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Sarah-honestly I think it has more to do with setting her up to succeed than anything else. That walk through the "Green Mile" is a recipe for disaster. I don't even think a deaf dog could do it with all that chaotic energy in the air. 

Again think of yourself being asked to walk through Sing Sing, attached to a guard, while all those prisoners are hanging out of their cells, trying to touch you, yelling things at you. Then the guard makes you stop, and worse, sit or lay down, and they escalate. Yikes! 

Sometimes you just have to say this is a situation I cannot and will not train around because I will not put my dog in this position. And then go to a better place and if she's still reacting, then yeah, go to a trainer. But if she's doing play bows and being good except in that one situation-don't put her in the situation. 

You are lucky to have a good solid dog who can be in many situations and do well!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Like Jean said!







I have a friend who has to put her dogs in the car and drive to another 'hood to walk, because of a similar situation like this. tttzzzzzzz6ttttttztzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

sorry, cookie crumb in keyboard...

Anyway, walking this gauntlet with dogs spitting out canine cuss words at her might be enough to send anydoggy over the top!


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

Thanks, its really encouraging and I'm really glad I asked on here. It's good to know that others feel like i am dealing with a pretty extreme case and that Rilely IS doing well, all things considered. I guess its back to driving down the hill everyday past the crazies. (i like the work out, too bad!)

I want the best for her, and we will always have work to do, but I'm proud of Riley (but some might consider me biased







)


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

I would get you & her back into another training class (anything really as long as the instructor is great) so that both of you can have the positive experience; you both need to learn focus in the presence of distraction. 

I'd also start driving her out for walks until you both have 'reset' - maybe you'll both be ready for the gauntlet again in a few weeks (or months ...). What happens when it's just you? (& no Riley)
Have you tried tossing the mad dogs bits of hotdog? (start when it's just you walking so they start to form the association lady = hot dogs, then add in Riley much later)

There is a really great discussion on here somewhere about teaching your dog to hold the ball etc - I'm just not sure where or when ... hopefully someone else will be able to find it


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

I would like to hit on the fact your neighbors seem to think they have a right to tell you that you should not make their dogs bark. Excuse you for using a public sidewalk! THEY are responsible for how THEIR dogs react to things that wander in and around their environment, YOU ARE NOT. You have every right to walk your dog on public property and to have your dog sit down on public property until she is calm if you so choose. As long as you are walking during a reasonable time of day or evening and not doing anything illegal or nasty as you walk by (such as teasing their dogs or something equally stupid) ... it's your right to be there. If they can't control their dog's barking then that's THEIR problem.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I agree with Jean and Val that this was displaced energy and not aggression. If she normally does a play bow I am thinking she is not aggressive but wants to PLAY with other dogs. When the other dogs are rude it frustrates her. She sounds like a pretty good dog to me though.


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