# ARGH!!! Mako attacked by a loose dog today. So mad.



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

How appropriate this happened soo soon after that thread by stone started. 

I am beyond angry. At the other owner. At myself for not protecting my dog. 

We were walking in a regular park. Dogs not allowed off leash. I was working on heel work under distraction. The path goes around a big pond. A woman came in with her kids and dog. They set up a picnic lunch. As we passed the other dog lunged to the end of its leash a few feet away. Mako looked at it but did not react. I told him leave it and we continued. 

I should have left the park, or gone somewhere else. I ended up making another lap. This time the aggressive dog was off leash. I told mako to stay and did my best to body block the other dog. The dog kept whipping around my legs. Mako had his hackles up and was showing a lot of teeth. He didn't break his stay though. 

The whole time this mutt was harassing my dog the owner was feeding her kid and just saying "Oh don't worry! He's friendly. He is just very vocal"

Friendly my butt. 

I ended up yelling to her she better come get her dang (not the word I actually used) dog before i kicked it's teeth in. 

The lady came over and scooped her dog up. Telling him he was being so bad. What ever. 

I give mako his focused heel command. Trying to not make a big deal of the encounter and getting his mind back to a happy/positive place. We got maybe 30 feet away when mako breaks his heel and whips around snarling. I grabbed the traffic loop on his leash. He didnt make contact with the other dog. The other effing dog - still loose - is latched on my guy's butt. The owner didn't even attempt to restrain the dog. I did kick it at this point. The owner was running over. When she finally grabbed it and pulled it off. It turned and bit her. 

The dogs seperated. I walked mine a bit away. I looked him over. He had some puncture wounds and blood. I took a pic. I tethered him to a picnic table and put him in a down stay. 

The lady and the family were packing up. I tried to talk to her. She said her dog has never done anything like that before. Then that my dog must have set something off in him. He must have been sensing aggression or something. I asked for her contact info and if I could see her dog's rabies tag. And she said no. Mako broke his down stay and was at the end of his leash screaming like a banshee. That's not like him. Maybe he was uncomfortable with me being near that aggressive dog? Or he sensed the tension between the other owner and myself? Anyways She left and I ran back and got mako. I started following her. I didn't say anything. She turned around and threatened to call the cops if I didn't. I yelled back to her "ok, that's fine".

I got a pic of her license plate as she drove off. The reason for my following in the first place.

Made report to animal control. Took mako to the vet. 

God. It was such a good day too. I was really proud and excited because he was doing SO GOOD with his heel work. Then I messed up. I let him break 2 commands and did not correct him for it. I didn't protect him from the beast. I let my boy get hurt. I did make him do a few commands and praised the heck out of him before we got into our car - trying to end the session on a positive note. 

Not good.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Will AC get her address from the police with the license? did you photograph the dog itself? 

you cannot fault your dog for making a decision based on his own safety when the dog bit him.

I hope he is alright and the irresponsible lady is cited and has to pay your vet bills.


Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly -- I would be beyond furious.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I hope that is what they will do. Find the lady via her license plate. 

It must be a busy day for AC. I only spoke with them on the phone thus far. They usually send someone out to talk to you in person.

I did not get a pic of the other dog. Tucking that thought away if God forbid something like this ever happens again


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

You were appropriate for the situation. Dont worry about commands for your dog. It was one incident.And a very stressful one for your dog at that. Hope you are both fine.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your dog did not bite or attack the other dog -- you prevented that, good. You cannot fault the dog when distractions turn into earthquakes. 

What you need to do now, is let your dog heel and treat him as though nothing changed. You have to walk out with confidence, and act like other dogs aren't a big deal. 

It takes some doing to recognize clueless owners and give them a wide berth. I generally socialize my dogs in dog classes -- this does not mean my dog runs up and sniffs the other's nose or butt. It means that the other dogs and owners my dogs are subjected to early on, are people who have their butts and dogs in dog classes -- three steps above your average pet owner already. There will be a leash on the dog at this level. And if someone does let their dog come right up to yours, you can say, firmly, to your dog, "EH, we're working!" and usually the other yayhoo will get it that your dog isn't there to get up close and personal with other dogs. A good trainer will generally lay down the law, sometimes prior in the paperwork, sometimes in the first class session. Dogs are not here to share communicable diseases, they are here to learn to work with you, around other dogs and people. 

Once you have a situation like this, you have to put your brain in front of your heart, understand that dogs live mostly in the moment, and the quickest way to make it as though it never happened, is to not allow it to affect you when you are out with your dog.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Oh, and my boy is doing well. A bit drowsy still from the sedative and pain killers the vet gave. Probably a little tender and sore on that leg.

The puncture wounds weren't deep enough to require a drain. 2 sutures on an area where there was a little tear in the skin. 

He went home with instructions to flush the wounds with saline, a topical antibiotic cream, a course of oral antibiotics, and a few days worth of pain killers. I'm not starting him on the oral antibiotics yet though. I want to wait till tomorrow, I plan to consult with my holistic vet first. The guy can have a bit of a sensitive stomach. Not sure if I want to risk killing off his gut flora.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That was incredibly irresponsible of that owner!And then she claims it was your dog's fault!?Hope Mako is alright and the wounds aren't too painful.Don't be too hard on yourself,you reacted well and I'm glad you didn't get bit too.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Is your dog protected from rabies?

I mean the chances the dog did have it are really slim to none, but if your dog has had his shots, that shouldn't even be a concern.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is where Vetericyn would be a great help.


homeopathic arnica will reduce swelling and pain.


MSM is a natural pain killer (plus keeping his gut flora)


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Does that make this the new threadnaught?

Btw if it was me there's no way I have my dog in OB in that situation. Leave em free and ready to fight. Don't make them vulnerable in OB.

Also if the dog is coming at you and doesn't scare when you threaten with a stomp step or two at them and give them your best PSA scream just assume hostility and lead with the attack not a block. Kick from the get go and don't pull the punch.

Nothing punishes stupidity like beating the **** outta the dog in front of the idiot owner and nothing punishes the dog for something like that quite like an ass kicking.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> Is your dog protected from rabies?
> 
> I mean the chances the dog did have it are really slim to none, but if your dog has had his shots, that shouldn't even be a concern.


Yes. My boy is fully vaccinated. 

I asked about seeing her dog's rabies tag to actually get the number off of it for animal control. I was sneaky in telling her i just wanted to make sure the dogs were both up to date. If I just happened to memorise the number... so be it. I'm actually pretty good with numeric memory.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I am so sorry this happened. People are idiots. I guess the standard lines must be "Don't worry my dog is friendly" followed by "Your dog must have done something to set him off" (as you extract her dog from Mako's but). and of course "He's never done that before". 

I'm not sure how much blame you can put on Mako for breaking the heel when he had a dog attached to him by the teeth. I don't doubt he felt you were in danger when you approached the woman to try to get her information. Kudo's to you for following her and getting the plate #. I think you handled the situation very well. 

I guess it's time for you to research your options. Hopefully AC will give her a citation. There may be a small claims court procedure that may sink some sense into this womans head. Another addition to my dog walking kit....camera..

I wonder what's best for Mako in the next couple of days. It seemed like from Bailiff's posts it might be good for him to have some positive dog experiences to help keep the thoughts away that all dogs are a bad news now.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Does that make this the new threadnaught?
> 
> Btw if it was me there's no way I have my dog in OB in that situation. Leave em free and ready to fight. Don't make them vulnerable in OB.
> 
> ...


Thank you. 

You are absolutely correct. I should not have given him those commands. While walking by I should have used the far more relaxed 'stay with me' and when I tethered him I shouldn't have put him in a down stay. Just let the physical restraint do its job.

If I had been more aggressive when I was body blocking. That probably would have gotten the owner to restrain precious and prevent that sneak attack. 

Lesson learned. Thank you for teaching it


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> That was incredibly irresponsible of that owner!And then she claims it was your dog's fault!?Hope Mako is alright and the wounds aren't too painful.Don't be too hard on yourself,you reacted well and I'm glad you didn't get bit too.


Right. But let's remember that we cannot do anything about other people acting irresponsibly. Oh sure, call in AC and find the person, and hopefully make her pay the vet bills. But that doesn't prevent this from happening again with another yayhoo. And I think this thread can provide some advice in that way. 

It's good to have a plan, ready and available in dealing with yayhoo owners, and loose dogs. Pick it apart in the security of your home, and hopefully when you are in the midst of it out there, some of it will come to you. 

I'm not blaming the victim, but, I go beyond what I ought to be expected to do in prevention. Because really, I may have a perfect right to walk down this side street, but if I know there is a Rottweiler that has tried to EAT my dog down there, well, I am going to avoid it. 

Hindsight is 20/20, but when you see someone with kids and a dog, and the dog already wants to eat yours, your best bet is to concede the area to them. That sucks. I understand it. I would wait until the small dog was leashed before turning my back on it, after a near miss. Dogs are slippery, and sometimes, they twist just right as you are trying to put that snap on and then the dog is loose. Already we know it is aggressive and probably not obedient. 

If you have a phone, beat her to calling in park police or the municipal police/animal control. Not a bad idea if you can line up a witness or two -- did you see that, did you see what happened? Trust me, that if this hag won't exchange her information with you, then she probably will lie about whose dog did what. It is even possible that her dog has done this before and she knows how to avoid a lawsuit. 

Lastly, you have to think long and hard on whether you are willing to make a federal case out of this. Your dog went to the vet, and that cost, what? 75$? 130$? You'll probably pay a good portion of that to see justice happen, and not get any more than that in return. Yes, she needs to have animal control come barking at her, specifically if her dog has had issues in the past that they are aware of. They may be able to fine her for having her dog off-lead, etc. Maybe not as it is your word against hers. Sometimes though, it is best to determine how far you are going to take it, and beyond that, let it go. Sometimes it is best to just let it go.


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

Sorry to hear about this and hope your guy is okay!!! The only thing that I would have maybe done differently is to call the police and not let her leave so it is truly documented. Without witness etc...who knows the argument they could make unfortunately.. Also, your dog seemed to behave wonderfully! I know that if my boy was bitten in the AZZ by anything he would not be so kind haha What kind of dog was it??


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I wonder what's best for Mako in the next couple of days. It seemed like from Bailiff's posts it might be good for him to have some positive dog experiences to help keep the thoughts away that all dogs are a bad news now.


I'm considering calling the trainer he does puppy agility with. She also does group obedience classes. Might be worth it that the next time he encounters "strange" dogs, for it to be in a controlled environment at a place he loves. We had some reactivity issues in the car after we were assaulted. We've mostly resolved that, but the precedence has been set that he gets edgy after bad stuff happens.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Hey I just want to chime in and say don't be too hard on yourself. You tried to protect your dog, nobody is perfect or superhuman, %×$ happens.

I was walking my 3 on leash back in FL, this was two gsds and a lab mix. A big male free roaming farm dog ran up to us. At first he was cool, so I tried to play it cool because I had my hands full w 3 dogs on leash. They all sniffed, we began to disengage and I saw it shift and had a split secone to think oh f*** he was going to go for one of my females. Ruger intercepted him, body checked him HARD on the shoulder and snapped his teeth in his face. They squared off for a second and then the loose male backed off. Never been so grateful to my boy. He knew exactly what to do, he told him if he messed with his bitches he wouod regret it but he didn't just latch on. Let me tell you, when Ruger meant business he was awesome to behold. In a nutshell, he bailed me out because I wasn't on my game that day and I just didn't handle it. Thank God Ruger did. 

I probably would have called the cops on the spot myself, come on, she is breaking leash rules and then won't even let you see her dog's rabies info....doesn't apologize or offer to pay your vet bills!? Unbelievable. I hope you find away to hold them accountable, that is just unacceptable behavior.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

She got bit by her own dog. She could say she was bit by your dog.
Now you got a problem.
Like Selzer said. Best to let it go


I mention this b/c this is how I acquired G so many yrs ago.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

jaudlee said:


> Sorry to hear about this and hope your guy is okay!!! The only thing that I would have maybe done differently is to call the police and not let her leave so it is truly documented. Without witness etc...who knows the argument they could make unfortunately.. Also, your dog seemed to behave wonderfully! I know that if my boy was bitten in the AZZ by anything he would not be so kind haha What kind of dog was it??


I did try to call in while she was still at the park. The non emergency police number transfered me to animal control where I got the if this is an emergency dial 911 otherwise leave a message and we'll get back to you. No one was in danger at that point. AC called me back while I was at the vet.

The dog was a fat, matted, doodle of somesort. About the size of a cocker spaniel. Maybe a schnoodle? It did the 'terrier bite' thing. Do schnauzers do that?


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

What a frustrating experience. You would think the least they could do is apologize and offer to pay the vet bill.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GatorBytes said:


> She got bit by her own dog. She could say she was bit by your dog.
> Now you got a problem.
> Like Selzer said. Best to let it go
> 
> ...


God. I didn't even think about that. 

I officially hate people.


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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

I'm so glad to hear it came out OK. The fact that Mako sustained some injuries is simply unacceptable! I've had this happen recently with walking my 6 month old and the other party also said he's not aggressive (BULL$#!^) that dog was coming at my pup teeth barred!. I was 2 seconds from grabbing my ASP baton that I carry and giving the dog a hard whack. I do not want to hurt any dog ever but if it's between them and my pup he gets defended whatever it takes. A block away we encountered another loose dog that came at my pup. I yelled at the dog, still angry from the last incident. A kid probably late teens or early 20s came out of the house and said he's good! I got a severe attitude with him as his dog approached us very aggressively. I told him that this was the third time I've had his dog stalk and charge at us. Prior to me carrying my old baton on a couple of our walks in the neighborhood a pair of dogs charged us and I simply put the boots to them both. That took all the fight out of them. 
So I'll just say this. They come at my pup again then they get what they get!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Btw if it was me there's no way I have my dog in OB in that situation. Leave em free and ready to fight. Don't make them vulnerable in OB.


I gotta agree with this mostly....if it gets past the point where I cannot control the off leash attacking dog...I drop the leash and let my dog have all the maneuvering room she needs to defend herself......it's kind of a tacit "agreement" we have. If I still have her on a command because I can diffuse the situation...that's a different story.

SuperG


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

voodoolamb said:


> I'm considering calling the trainer he does puppy agility with. She also does group obedience classes. Might be worth it that the next time he encounters "strange" dogs, for it to be in a controlled environment at a place he loves. We had some reactivity issues in the car after we were assaulted. We've mostly resolved that, but the precedence has been set that he gets edgy after bad stuff happens.


I was going to suggest a controlled setting, because why take chances with luck? When mine was attacked we were back in classes that same week. No breaks, just moving forward. The attack never affected him(thankfully)

I'm glad you or the kids didn't get bit. I'm sure it would have been much worse if your dog seen that dog go after you. Hopefully they can track her down, there is no reason they can't with the license plate number.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> I officially hate people.


Hopefully, only idiots.......


SuperG


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> She got bit by her own dog. She could say she was bit by your dog.
> Now you got a problem.
> Like Selzer said. Best to let it go
> 
> ...


I never thought of this but this is definitely something that could happen.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

So, is the the take away...? If you don't have a witness or a camera, because the owner of the dog that attacked yours can lie.... can say that your dog attacked first or that your dog bit them when their own did - it's best to do nothing? 

I imagine this advise would still go regardless of the vet bills, severity of injury to your dog - or for that matter yourself if you got bitten trying to break the loose biting dog off of yours? because they could say that your own dog bit you, not theirs.

I guess you're just SOL no matter what because what are the chances a witness could actually during a dog fight say which teeth clamped down on who in the thick of it and the odds may be a little better of a witness seeing which dog started the fight - not by much.

I'm not questioning that may be good advise - I just hadn't thought about the aftermath of a loose dog attack. It didn't occur to me that there's a very slim chance of justice and reimbursement for medical bills because they other party can just lie- and you could loose your dog over a human bite in this situation if they lie.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

SuperG said:


> I gotta agree with this mostly....if it gets past the point where I cannot control the off leash attacking dog...I drop the leash and let my dog have all the maneuvering room she needs to defend herself......it's kind of a tacit "agreement" we have. If I still have her on a command because I can diffuse the situation...that's a different story.
> 
> SuperG


See this is something I wonder about.

I prevented Mako from defending himself. As soon as he tried to whip around to lay teeth in on the dog I grabbed the short part of his leash and held him back. Then I kicked the mutt off of him. 

I have it so ingrained into my brain from years of owning pit bulls that my dog does not ever put teeth into another. Not even in self defense.

Not sure if that was the right move today.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, I think your only mistake was not calling 911 as soon as she refused to give you any personal information.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> So, is the the take away...? If you don't have a witness or a camera, because the owner of the dog that attacked yours can lie.... can say that your dog attacked first or that your dog bit them when their own did - it's best to do nothing?
> 
> I imagine this advise would still go regardless of the vet bills, severity of injury to your dog - or for that matter yourself if you got bitten trying to break the loose biting dog off of yours? because they could say that your own dog bit you, not theirs.
> 
> ...


I'm just so fed up with this stuff.

People lack common sense. And common decency. 

Dog law is ridiculous. 

I should have Maced the little cur as soon as he approached off leash while i was body blocking. I had pepper spray with me. That would have prevented injury to my dog. Even prevented the bite to the idiot owner. 

Eh. Then again I probably would have been charged with animal cruelty and sued for the little mutt's eye flushing. 

I still hate people.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Personally, I think your only mistake was not calling 911 as soon as she refused to give you any personal information.


Yeah. I probably should have called 911 instead of the non emergency police line. An officer might have gotten there before she had the chance to drive off.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wasn't being critical. In the heat of the moment, when the moment goes from sunshine to tornado, we cannot expect miracles from our dog or ourselves. I think that you did incredibly well. I am just trying to play it back and see what might have been a better idea.

I don't think you should have allowed your do to bite the other. Chances are much greater if injuries were sustained by any party, your dog might not be clean and free. Things are crazy:

.......Little Piddle-Poo runs _playfully_ and Mr. Working Dog, and bites his butt, whereas 
.......Mr. Working dog then grabs Piddle-Poo by the neck and gives a shake, and walks 
.......away having made his point. Instead of the owner of Piddle-Poo paying the vet
.......for both dogs because she did not have her dog on lead, someone might find that
.......both parties should take care of their own vet bills. 

It's kind of like boxing. If you don't knock the other guy out cleanly, the judges can do just about anything. And this is why I avoid confrontation completely. If the worst does happen, my plan is to take the bite instead of my dog if necessary. I don't want my dogs to EVER lay tooth on someone's dog. I know what they can do, as I have bitches and I have seen what they can do to each other. I don't give them a chance in Hades to get the benefit of the doubt from any gargoyle in a courtroom -- they seem to HATE GSDs.

And if someone tries to designate your dog as dangerous, then you are in a world of hurt with your insurance company and all that -- no. We are sometimes better off staying away from the law.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sorry this happened sometimes despite our best efforts ... crap happens! I find no fault with you having your dog under control obedience, myself but for me a "Down" is a step to far. I prefer for my guys to simply "Stay" and let me deal. Which your guys was doing in any case so that was not the problem.

The only "mistake" you made is not something your going to find in any "Dog Training Protocol" that I am aware of?? You simply *"underestimated how freaking stupid some people can be!"* Not a mistake I'm prone to making myself. 

Once that dog had made his presence know he should have been on your radar, you dropped your "Situational Awareness" and fell "victim" to the "mythical"* Ambush Predator* a term coined by a member a long time ago! 

My stance was ... they do exist, most likely the dog did not make a sound until he was on you guys?? A suicidal Shih Tzu, did a blitz assault "attempt" on Rocky and I a few weeks ago! 

I was screwing around with my phone on a walk, heard something at the last second had to look down and there he was??? **** bent for leather and aiming at Rocky!! I was stunned, startled and ticked off because he got that close. Rocky wares a body harness (Wobblers) and I grabbed both handles and spun him out of the way and cussed out the dog and owner! 

I knew that dog was there so I was mostly angry at myself, that was the second attempt by that dog! So yeah I to underestimated how stupid the owners were! Now we cross the street I don't want Rocky hurt or him killing some fools dog! 

But my point is "this" dog had made his "presence" known so keeping an eye out for him would have been a good idea. Eyes on a swivel front and back. When Roc and I go out on a neighborhood walk ... it's not so much a walk as it is a "Patrol."

Your dog has no fault here in breaking commands, if nothing else he showed good instincts ... "this dog is a problem??" Sometimes we need to listen to our dogs and take heed. Sorry this happened but chalk it up to lesson learned ... "Don't under estimate stupid" and move on.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> See this is something I wonder about.
> 
> I prevented Mako from defending himself. As soon as he tried to whip around to lay teeth in on the dog I grabbed the short part of his leash and held him back. Then I kicked the mutt off of him.
> 
> ...


I can't say either since I wasn't there.....but if you did your level best....which it sounds like you did.....that's all you can do. Handler and dog are a team....both look out for each other....there's lots of variables at times and each situation is unique.


SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I don't think something like is will ever be perfectly orchestrated although we do play back in our head what we could of did different and then torture ourselves. It is good to have an idea what we would do just in case. I glad your boy is healing and things could of gotten out of hand if it wasn't for you.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Sounds like you both did a good job. You can only control so much. It's unfortunate that those kids were there. They might be traumatized by the negligence.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I gotta agree with this mostly....if it gets past the point where I cannot control the off leash attacking dog...I drop the leash and let my dog have all the maneuvering room she needs to defend herself......it's kind of a tacit "agreement" we have. If I still have her on a command because I can diffuse the situation...that's a different story.
> 
> SuperG


By and large my policy also, I had Rocky in a "Stay" behind me and when I slipped and fell, I still had the leash in my hands, that was the only thing that came between that dog and serious injury as Rocky stepped over me to deter the remaining dog in our two dog encounter! 

Uh Oh ... "Daddy's Down" ... I got this!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> See this is something I wonder about.
> 
> I prevented Mako from defending himself. As soon as he tried to whip around to lay teeth in on the dog I grabbed the short part of his leash and held him back. Then I kicked the mutt off of him.
> 
> ...


No ... that was not a mistake! Your second guessing yourself, if you had done otherwise as described above (and were capable of doing so and chose not to) then you would not be the person you are today. 

I'd have done that exact same thing! Again the only "mistake" you made is you "underestimated stupid" not a mistake I'm prone to making myself ... and I bet you won't either going forward!

Put another way if people proof themselves to be inept and incompetent ... take them at there word. :grin2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I'm just so fed up with this stuff.
> 
> People lack common sense. And common decency.
> 
> ...


LOL, you had pepper spray?? Well there you go! 

It's a judgement call, you could have simply kicked the crap out of the dog also but by and large most of us ... don't really want to "escalate" for a dog simply being a fool. It's a judgement call, no right or wrong there.

And yep you may or may not have been facing charges had you done so?? To this day I still don't carry counter measures, although I do advise others to do so. 

But in defending my dogs I do whatever I need to do the right or wrong of it "is" for courts of law.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I wonder how my air horn would have worked. Not illegal - not kicking.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't want to speak for Bailiff, but I think he was more concerned because you were worried that you did not correct your dog when it didn't manage what obedience stuff you were doing with it during the incident. Yeah, I don't think I would correct a dog either if it was being attacked and broke a stay or a heel position. A well trained dog can sometimes keep you out of a situation by not escalating it, but once there is an attack, obedience, especially while training, might not hold. I wouldn't correct that. I probably would just continue to work on it, which you are doing anyway.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

After several run ins with loose dogs, I watch as far ahead as I can and if I see one or I'm in a place where I've seen loose dogs before, I don't go past them. I was at a park and a woman had a Pittbull on a leash, she was packing up her things but no matter where I walked my puppy, her dog's eyes were on us and he was staring us down. I walked in a big circle around her and left. The dog might have been fine, but I am very concerned about attacks like this.

I hope AC can give her a citation or warning.


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Like many others who have posted, I'm sorry this happened, and I know what it feels like. I bet if you did a poll, many of us would say it's happened to us more than once, and that kind of statistic sucks. The shock and anger will fade, and just speaking from experience, try not to let it consume you. Be prepared and conscious of other dogs around you and avoid if you can. I personally have a list of red flags lol, including: person is walking dog and looking like they are being dragged, person is a child, walking dog and is being pulled all over the place, dog is on a retractable leash, dog in front :surprise: ( I hate these). Dog is loose, in near proximity, owner gives command, dog ignores. Each individually, or combined with dog barking, and owner comment "my dog is friendly" and I promptly avoid, or become more aware of possible issues. Did I mention not to let it consume you!? :crazy: get back to normal as soon as you can and I hope Mako heals quickly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I wonder how my air horn would have worked. Not illegal - not kicking.


If it were deployed in an instance like this, I think it would have worked just fine. For the initial encounter but the actual bite ... sounds like it was an ambush?? 

Only defense is extreme paranoia, ie keeping an eye out for "that" dog.


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> If it were deployed in an instance like this, I think it would have worked just fine. For the initial encounter but the actual bite ... sounds like it was an ambush??
> 
> Only defense is extreme paranoia, ie keeping an eye out for "that" dog.


Yup, that's what bothers me about this encounter. From behind, and the attacking dog's owner is completely oblivious.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

This is my BIGGEST fear with Bella. She will not go in defense mode if being attacked I know it in my heart. I'm so nervous around the army base because they're dogs running freely all the time. I'm always on guard when we're walking. I keep a medal pole thing with me at all times. I refuse to let anything or anyone touch her. I will do jail time over my dog.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

LittleBear said:


> Yup, that's what bothers me about this encounter. From behind, and the attacking dog's owner is completely oblivious.


Yes. It was absolutely an ambush. I kept the dogs seperate. The owner collected hers. He was in her armd. We walked off and -boom- 

I wasn't under the impression that she attempted to restrain the dog and it got away...

No yelling at the dog to get back here or yelling no. No hollering to me to watch out. 

I honestly think she held the dog until she thought I was far enough away and just put it down and stopped paying attention to it. 

I mean from her view point she saw my much larger dog then hers showing his teeth at her little precious and I had verbally threatened to kick her dog. If she was paying attention I would have expected Atleast SOME attempt at stopping the dog from reaching us.

If she had called out something I would have heard and been able to prevent contact again.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> I don't want to speak for Bailiff, but I think he was more concerned because you were worried that you did not correct your dog when it didn't manage what obedience stuff you were doing with it during the incident. Yeah, I don't think I would correct a dog either if it was being attacked and broke a stay or a heel position. A well trained dog can sometimes keep you out of a situation by not escalating it, but once there is an attack, obedience, especially while training, might not hold. I wouldn't correct that. I probably would just continue to work on it, which you are doing anyway.


Yes. I'm not too concerned about him breaking his heel during the attack. My frustration with that stemmed from the fact it was the first session where focused heeling "clicked" for him. The first time he wasn't bumping into me and tripping all over himself. 

I am a little... eh ... about him breaking the down stay I put him in when he was tethered and far away from the other dog. That was my fault. I should have realised he was too keyed up and that I would be too distracted talking with the other owner to remind him that his booty needed to stay put. 
I asked too much from him considering his maturity and training level. That was a handling error on my part. 

Atleast i learned from it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LittleBear said:


> Yup, that's what bothers me about this encounter. From behind, and the attacking dog's owner is completely oblivious.





ILoveBella478 said:


> This is my BIGGEST fear with Bella. She will not go in defense mode if being attacked I know it in my heart. I'm so nervous around the army base because they're dogs running freely all the time. I'm always on guard when we're walking. I keep a medal pole thing with me at all times. I refuse to let anything or anyone touch her. I will do jail time over my dog.


By and large it was a worst case scenario. 

When (if) you get taken truly by surprised, it's all down to instinct and reflexes. Your feet and a walking stick which would be in your hands, you could deploy without thinking. 

Anything you would have to reach for short of a sidearm (and not going there) you'd most likely have to fumble around for??

Just things to keep in mind and yeah my dogs come first for me also.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Yes. It was absolutely an ambush. I kept the dogs seperate. The owner collected hers. He was in her armd. We walked off and -boom-
> 
> I wasn't under the impression that she attempted to restrain the dog and it got away...
> 
> ...


All I'll say is ... have Lassie on stand by if your going to start down the dark deep well of the truly lame and stupid. 

What you saw is what they are ... pretty much that simple.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

#1 if her dog is much smaller than yours (she picked it up?), then a bite mark from her dog ought to be distingishable from a bite mark from yours.

#2 carry Spray Shield. It might not stop a pit or a truly aggressive bigger dog but I have fired away at smaller dogs and it worked like a charm. It does ot harm the dog getting sprayed so you don't need to worry about liability there. 

When little yappers run at my dogs I shoot first and ask questions later (spray shield), because I would way rather have someone mad at me for blasting their dog with citronella than have my dog in troubke for biting in self defense because we all know what it looks like once a GSD has bit a fluffy, justified of not.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Just my 2pennies. I think your instinctive quick thinking prevented a much worse scenario. That owner was clearly in the wrong, but had Mako swung around and clamped down on that evil little curd, in front of everyone, many who witnessed it would have forgotten all about who attacked who.

Sometimes I feel like my boy is an evil-nasty-little-dog magnet. (Not pertinent to your situation but just had to add it because I'm fed up with loose dogs also)

I read that you are going to get Mako into a group setting for a good experience to counter this bad one. You may want to do this a few times soon. Reason being, someone wise once said to me: It takes 5 positives to offset a negative.

I'm sure with your care, Mako will come out of this ok.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would have been PISSED and I definitely would have called the police the moment the dog attacked mine! UGH!

First of all you were in an area where dogs were not allowed off leash, your dog was on leash and her's was not. Her 1st mistake. Her 2nd mistake was allowing her dog to go after your dog 3 different times! 

I would have punted that freaking rat like a football if it would have touched one of my dogs!

What an irresponsible twit that woman was to not give you her information after her mistakes caused injuries to your dog.

I hope she has to pay for all of your dog's medical bills and I hope she gets a fine for her stupidity.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Only defense is extreme paranoia, ie keeping an eye out for "that" dog.


Not to parse words...but I guess I am anyway....vigilance rather than extreme paranoia....but your "keeping an eye out....." hits on the same mentality.

No sense going forward all uptight....one's dog might pick up on that vibe and start a whole new set of problems. 

SuperG


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Heartandsoul said:


> Just my 2pennies. I think your instinctive quick thinking prevented a much worse scenario. That owner was clearly in the wrong, but had Mako swung around and clamped down on that evil little curd, in front of everyone, many who witnessed it would have forgotten all about who attacked who.
> 
> Sometimes I feel like my boy is an evil-nasty-little-dog magnet. (Not pertinent to your situation but just had to add it because I'm fed up with loose dogs also)
> 
> ...


I would like to reinforce these two points because Traveler was once blamed for chomping on a fluff mutt even though it was the ankle biter who started the attack.

The second point about getting several good dog-dog experiences is paramount. I did not do this after our incident. I did just the opposite-I kept him away from all dogs and my irrational fear of his DA attitude reflected down the leash and made it all the worse. Only after someone knocked some sense into my head did I work on counter conditioning both of us. 

How I wish I could rewrite that script.

Get your dog socialized quickly.

Lynn & Traveler


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

People are strange Voodoo. A couple of posters on that other thread about leashes actually said they hope I am out walking my dog soon and Summer is threatened by an off leash dog.... so I can see how easy it is to drive them away and therefore gain confidence that I can protect her.

You don't always have a dog attacking from the front and I cannot understand why they think that is so...just because they haven't experienced it.

The two times I did have a dog attack while on a leash both were from behind and no warning. This was some time ago with other dogs but it got pretty intense and I had to drop the leash in both cases or my dogs would not have been able to drive off the attacker. There was every chance I would become caught in the fight (leash tangle) and go down among them. I think when you have an attacking dog your dog feels you are both under attack responds with a double fury because of that - no ceremonial pinning and break off. That attacker has to go - one way or the other.....

I was taught not to get in the middle of a large dog fight. My X did one time between our Wolf/Shepherd and A Mal/Rott and got bit by our own dog when he grabbed him by the neck and pulled back.

Lol - add to dog walking list; spray, horn, pick, bite stick, cell phone/camera, (no sandals)- Kicking Shoes.... all because people can't keep their dogs on a leash or properly confined:frown2:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If you find this women's address through the license plate maybe send her the bill. Although i think it is just best to move on. You diffused the situation by not letting mako bite the small dog. Even though mako got bit you kept him safe in a different way by controlling him and preventing him from biting the small dog. This takes fast coordination and good timing. 
This passed summer I was walking max in our neighbor. I big fat jack Russell terrier came running out of the yard snarling at us. The first thing that came to mind was I am going to kick this dog like a football. Then was concerned and knew if the dog grabbed my pant leg -max would attack it. As I stood in front of max the dog still proceeded to try to get at him. I saw Max's fangs come out and lunged toward him. Now the owner is picking up her pace because she is concerned about her precious pup. Now I practically hanging my own dog and moving in a circle to stop max from protecting himself and this little dog from biting max. If I let max bite this dog he would have done serious damage as the size difference. who would get in trouble and be held accountable- it is all I thought about during this escapade keeping max safe another way. The owner slow as a turtle came to her darlings rescue screaming at her dog chasing him as we are moving in a constant circle. No one got bit I was fuming even more as max is dog reactive and thinking this would set us back. All was okay continued our training class and just moved onward.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I'm pretty sure that in areas with a leash law - if you have your dog on a leash and a loose dog attacks - the other is the guilty party as they were negligent and breaking the law. The bite would not have happened if they had legal control of their dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The person with the unleashed dog is at fault 
but people are sue crazy these days.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> People are strange Voodoo. A couple of posters on that other thread about leashes actually said they hope I am out walking my dog soon and Summer is threatened by an off leash dog.... so I can see how easy it is to drive them away and therefore gain confidence that I can protect her.


Stone,

Please be fair in your postings regarding what other "strange" people have actually "said". Here's the original post word for word..."" I *almost* wish a dog would rush them during a walk so she could successfully drive it away and conquer her fear."...."

Neither the originator of those words nor myself suggested any ill will....rather quite the opposite. It's too bad your take away from that exchange was so negative as it wasn't intended to be.

SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The post mentioned in quotes above - the remarks were made by people who care and wanted to see you face your fear so you can move on. I thought that was very clearly expressed and can't see how it can be taken otherwise.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> The post mentioned in quotes above - the remarks were made by people who care and wanted to see you face your fear so you can move on. I thought that was very clearly expressed and can't see how it can be taken otherwise.


I understand that Jenny - that's why I said they must not have experienced an attack from behind before. As I also said, the only two attacks I have experienced with a dog on leash were from behind. It's just not something I would wish on someone because the encounter is not predictable.... thank you for the critique on my opinion though.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> - that's why I said they must not have experienced an attack from behind before. .


This strange person had one of his dogs ambushed from behind.....I almost think the intense surprise/reaction on my behalf and my dog threw the other dog off balance for a second allowing me the upper hand as the other dog took a moment to "reevaluate" the situation. I'm guessing anybody who saw the event or heard me within a block or so, figured I had a screw loose.....

SuperG


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

We've had several incidents where the dog(s) come from behind. Whenever we pass a dog I usually keep an eye on them until we've put some distance between us. Hearing of the potential various outcomes should the offender lie prompts me to consider using a go-pro for outings, lol. Seems ridiculous, but you never know what type of people you're dealing dealing with


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I guess I must not be on grass much. I always hear the click of toenails if a dog is coming fast from behind.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Not to parse words...but I guess I am anyway....vigilance rather than extreme paranoia....but your "keeping an eye out....." hits on the same mentality.
> 
> No sense going forward all uptight....one's dog might pick up on that vibe and start a whole new set of problems.
> 
> SuperG


Point taken *"extreme vigilance"* I like it! :wink2:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Point taken *"extreme vigilance"* I like it! :wink2:


As professor Moody would say, "Constant Vigilance!!!!"
:grin2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I'm pretty sure that in areas with a leash law - if you have your dog on a leash and a loose dog attacks - the other is the guilty party as they were negligent and breaking the law. The bite would not have happened if they had legal control of their dog.


And I'll add ... in a court of law, the law tends to favor the dog on the leash. I favore "control" myself, so Rocky and I are still "leash optional."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I guess this is why I don't have this problem with most breeds of dogs. Just because they are off leash with their owners doesn't signal a thing to me except that they most likely are a safe dog or the owner would not have it off lead. I don't give them a second thought and neither do my dogs, maybe a friendly meet and greet, maybe not, and it is extremely rare to have a problem.

On the other hand, since most people walk their dogs off leash in my area, when I see a person with a dog on a leash, I find that the dog is usually not a problem, can't always say the same about the owner. I just don't find most breeds of dogs all that eager to go out and about looking for a fight.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> People are strange Voodoo. A couple of posters on that other thread about leashes actually said they hope I am out walking my dog soon and Summer is threatened by an off leash dog.... so I can see how easy it is to drive them away and therefore gain confidence that I can protect her.
> 
> You don't always have a dog attacking from the front and I cannot understand why they think that is so...just because they haven't experienced it.
> 
> ...


That is a long list of "stuff" but the thing is if you get taken by surprise ... it's all pretty useless! Feet or a walking stick, you can deploy almost instantly, nothing to hunt for there. 

I don't know who said what in the other thread but ... you can't control what other people do. You can control your dog and having your own dog under control is "always step one." 

You "don't" have to socialize your dog with other dogs at all, if you choose not to. It's not needed to have a dog safe dog, with my first two ... it was 8 or 9 years before they ever played with other dogs and that only happened when I had "full control of all dogs involved." 

Nonetheless my guys all knew how to behave around other dogs ... they ignored them. Having a dog that goes "Ape Crap Crazy" because he "sees" another dog ... sounds like it would get old fast??

I do believe "that" is what people were trying to explain?? Stray dog encounters are random and unpredictable but having your own dog under control is a big part of in dealing with the issue. 

And yeah on our neighborhood walks I always scan front and back and side to side. Still get "blind sided" on occasion and have to scramble fast ... crap happens.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I guess this is why I don't have this problem with most breeds of dogs. Just because they are off leash with their owners doesn't signal a thing to me except that they most likely are a safe dog or the owner would not have it off lead. I don't give them a second thought and neither do my dogs, maybe a friendly meet and greet, maybe not, and it is extremely rare to have a problem.
> 
> On the other hand, since most people walk their dogs off leash in my area, when I see a person with a dog on a leash, I find that the dog is usually not a problem, can't always say the same about the owner. I just don't find most breeds of dogs all that eager to go out and about looking for a fight.


I have to say ... I'll never be guilty of overestimating the competence of JQP and there dog training skills. 

Leash or no leash if I see them first ... across the street we go distance equals time ...just in case.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> I have to say ... I'll never be guilty of overestimating the competence of JQP and there dog training skills.
> 
> Leash or no leash if I see them first ... across the street we go distance equals time ...just in case.


I agree about JQP, but still, you need to take into account dogs themselves. Fighting with everything that crosses their paths is not conducive to the survival of the species or self preservation, which is a very strong instinct in most living creatures. 

When you get down to the bottom line, most people don't choose a breed to challenge their training skills, will bite the neighbors kids, or attack any and every dog it sees. They want mellow dogs that were bred not to exhibit these qualities in the first place such as Labs and Goldens. I am not saying problems never arise in these breeds, I am just saying these are JQP's breeds of choice due to the safety and ease of maintenance that can be expected.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

What happens in pet dogs behavior wise is often trained unintentionally. It has little to do with breed selection usually or that at least plays less of a factor than you might think. The way people use leashes especially to drag a dog away when it's barking lunging is BUILDING drive for an attack (using opposition reflex). Instead of punishing the behavior they are building the dog up and conditioning that crazy angry state of mind. Then they (the dog) see the picture its occurring in and the line fails or someone drops it by accident or the leash just isn't on and boom all that build up and unintentional training culminates into an attack. 

Most public dog on dog attacks were trained by the owner unintentionally.

Go to an IPO club or ring club that is starting a new puppy and watch how the people post with the line or drag in and drag out for a bite. Notice how similar it looks to what you see pet owners do with leash reactive dogs everyday. It's the same picture just something different doing the agitation!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That's why you rarely see stray dogs attacking each other in third world countries. Nobody's got a leash on them training them to do it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> What happens in pet dogs behavior wise is often trained unintentionally. It has little to do with breed selection usually or that at least plays less of a factor than you might think. The way people use leashes especially to drag a dog away when it's barking lunging is BUILDING drive for an attack (using opposition reflex). Instead of punishing the behavior they are building the dog up and conditioning that crazy angry state of mind. Then they (the dog) see the picture its occurring in and the line fails or someone drops it by accident or the leash just isn't on and boom all that build up and unintentional training culminates into an attack.
> 
> Most public dog on dog attacks were trained by the owner unintentionally.
> 
> Go to an IPO club or ring club that is starting a new puppy and watch how the people post with the line or drag in and drag out for a bite. Notice how similar it looks to what you see pet owners do with leash reactive dogs everyday. It's the same picture just something different doing the agitation!


I always say leashes breed aggression.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> That's why you rarely see stray dogs attacking each other in third world countries. Nobody's got a leash on them training them to do it.


This is pretty much what I posted about free roaming dogs prior to leash laws and also for the area I live now where people walk their dogs off leash. We have very few aggressive dog problems of non fighting breeds.

I will disagree about breeds though, as I have seen way too many times where Pit Bulls were brought to dog parks since little pups and never had a problem until they mature, and then boom, it is like a flip switched. In fact, that is the way it was with the one dog aggressive dog I owned. He was great until two years of age and then it was over night he became dog aggressive. 

Speaking of two years of age, I have yet to see in the dog parks around me where a Pit Bull has been able to make it past 2 years of age without becoming seriously dog aggressive and have to be kept out of the park despite being kept off leash for 2 years.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I always say leashes breed aggression.


I always say slight tug* "sideways"* or use a *"Pet Convincer"* for corrections. :laugh2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> I always say slight tug* "sideways"* or use a *"Pet Convincer"* for corrections. :laugh2:


You always save slight tug sideways. I can never really envision what you are talking about. Can you explain in detail what you are trying to say?

And regarding the Pet Convincer, how will using it on your dog impact it against a nefarious person who chooses to use it against your dog?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is pretty much what I posted about free roaming dogs prior to leash laws and also for the area I live now where people walk their dogs off leash. We have very few aggressive dog problems of non fighting breeds.
> 
> I will disagree about breeds though, as I have seen way too many times where Pit Bulls were brought to dog parks since little pups and never had a problem until they mature, and then boom, it is like a flip switched. In fact, that is the way it was with the one dog aggressive dog I owned. He was great until two years of age and then it was over night he became dog aggressive.
> 
> Speaking of two years of age, I have yet to see in the dog parks around me where a Pit Bull has been able to make it past 2 years of age without becoming seriously dog aggressive and have to be kept out of the park despite being kept off leash for 2 years.


I said breed plays less of a factor than most people think I obviously based on other comments in other threads I made wouldn't deny it plays a factor. The drives the pits have in terms of prey and defense are hightened their opposition reflex usually stronger and the leash agitation sessions work much faster to create an attack in those breeds than with many others. So yes breed is playing a factor in how fast they're unintentionally trained and also because many are insensitive makes it much harder to train out of them vs other dogs once someone finally sees they have a problem.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> I said breed plays less of a factor than most people think I obviously based on other comments in other threads I made wouldn't deny it plays a factor. The drives the pits have in terms of prey and defense are hightened their opposition reflex usually stronger and the leash agitation sessions work much faster to create an attack in those breeds than with many others. So yes breed is playing a factor in how fast they're unintentionally trained and also because many are insensitive makes it much harder to train out of them vs other dogs once someone finally sees they have a problem.


Agreed! :smile2:

What are your thoughts on impulse aggression?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Also and this is real talk. I've seen way more small dog on other dog attacks than Pitbull attacks. It's way more common. It just isn't as brutal and isn't as damaging but the behavior is way way more common in toy breeds than large dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Also and this is real talk. I've seen way more small dog on other dog attacks than Pitbull attacks. It's way more common. It just isn't as brutal and isn't as damaging but the behavior is way way more common in toy breeds than large dogs.


I wish I had your experience with Pits and small breeds, IME it is just the opposite.

Regardless, with small dogs, nature or nurture?

If nature, what drives it?

If nurture, what are the owners doing to elicit the behavior?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Also and this is real talk. I've seen way more small dog on other dog attacks than Pitbull attacks. It's way more common. It just isn't as brutal and isn't as damaging but the behavior is way way more common in toy breeds than large dogs.


One of my previous shepherds was attacked by three small dogs who got away from their owner and charged us. I could have kicked the dogs but didn't want to as we were in a public place surrounded by children. Instead, I moved in front of my dog and screamed at the owner to grab his dogs NOW! I blasted him when he got the leashes and he told me since my dog was bigger, his dogs were not at fault. They were terriers, which in my experience can be extremely aggressive. My dog became small dog aggressive after that, which didn't surprise me, given the fright. Actually, my screaming could have upset her more than the dogs, but I was really angry. Had the dogs gone after a child, it would have been serious. If I had been more aware of that possibility of later generalized dog on dog aggression, I would have made an effort to socialize to small dogs, but it was my first purebred German Shepherd and I was still learning.

Another time two Bichons got loose and started to go after my very large male. He was submissive to dogs, so I didn't worry about him, but one circled around to come at him from the side and the other ran around to get him from the back. I took that as serious potential aggression and started shouting and waving my arms at them to back off. A young man was moving a lawn and ran across the street with a push broom and hit them away. They ran off whimpering.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Baillif said:


> What happens in pet dogs behavior wise is often trained unintentionally. It has little to do with breed selection usually or that at least plays less of a factor than you might think. The way people use leashes especially to drag a dog away when it's barking lunging is BUILDING drive for an attack (using opposition reflex). Instead of punishing the behavior they are building the dog up and conditioning that crazy angry state of mind. Then they (the dog) see the picture its occurring in and the line fails or someone drops it by accident or the leash just isn't on and boom all that build up and unintentional training culminates into an attack.
> 
> Most public dog on dog attacks were trained by the owner unintentionally.
> 
> Go to an IPO club or ring club that is starting a new puppy and watch how the people post with the line or drag in and drag out for a bite. Notice how similar it looks to what you see pet owners do with leash reactive dogs everyday. It's the same picture just something different doing the agitation!


For sure agree as I had the bad habit of tightening up on my reactive boys leash and collar when other dogs got near... I didn't even realize I was doing it until my IPO trainer who I was working with at the time noticed it. Now I keep my pace, loose leash, tell him to leave it and all is good.. IF he blows off that leave it well then there are consequences and I'll leave it at that. But then how do you handle a loose dog running up while my male is lunging and loosing his mind? I am a fairly small person and have a bad shoulder to boot... I'm not sure I would be effective at fending the other dog off especially if they were a large breed and I'm sure my male is more than aware of this hence his reaction. I don't want to not take him out because of these idiots but I am pretty paranoid about it after a couple bad incidents. Even though he's never attacked or bitten a dog I feel like keeping a muzzle on him would help me relax a lot more in the event a loose dog/s does run up to us again.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

IF AC will not look up contact info from the license plate, you may be able to do it yourself or an attorney will be able to get it. Make and model of car also helpful. 

It isn't particularly relevant that the dog had never acted like that before. Point is, he did act like that.

Would have, should have, could have -- just useful for next time you come across a butt head and see a way to avoid another interaction. No need to beat yourself up for not responding that way this time.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You always save slight tug sideways. I can never really envision what you are talking about. Can you explain in detail what you are trying to say?
> 
> And regarding the Pet Convincer, how will using it on your dog impact it against a nefarious person who chooses to use it against your dog?


Hmm I always thought* slight tug sideways* was self explanatory?? But if not here we go. 

Dogs are built to pull, straight forward, there chest upper shoulders and neck is where a lot of there strength is. All designed for strength ... straight ahead, Sled Dogs anyone. 

So if an owner pulls back, with a reactive dog, the dog pulls forward ... no problem and game on as it were. If an owner is strong enough yeah you can restrain them but not a lot of fun and the dog learns nothing, save for if I want to go for it, "this" is the way to get'er done. :grin2:

But if an owner loses ... it can look like this:










And for my "extreme examples" if owners want to try the pull back thing ... I wonder how that would work with these guys??? :grin2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPustvoNavY










So no opposition reflex in walking a dog or leash reactivity, I don't play the dogs game. A "slight tug" sideways throws a dog off center. "Sideways Corrections"they don't like and aren't eager to have it happen again. You should be able to see them recenter themselves, they aren't eager to have it happen again.

A SLL ,positioned high and snug amplifies the effect and takes very little "torque" to accomplish, by and large an observe does not see anything being done?? Cesar does it all the time, most just can't see it. 

Same thing can be done with a Flat leash and regular collar, but since a regular collar sits lower on the dogs neck, it would take a bit more of a tug ... *"not a snap or a pop"*, a tug "sideways." So your taking taking up slack with a snap, shorten up the slack in advance ... if you think you need to. 

High and snug amplifies the "effect" and reduces the effort, hence Caesars silly, in my view "Illusion Collar":

https://www.cesarsway.com/shop/pack-leader-collar

Like all tools you still have to know what your doing, I see it as a crutch for the lazy myself. Or people can use a "Pet Convincer" and not worry about it. 

And my dogs aren't out there encountering "Bad Guys" and stuff, and are under my control, they won't get close enough to someone I don't know to make them feel the need to deploy counter measures. 

How was "this" by way of an explanation??


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I liked your explanation Chip. Leash pop, sideways, gets the brains attention, pulling back on leash give the dog drive forward, opposition reflex. 

Leash aggression comes from people pulling back on leash when dog wants to go forward and sniff butt. Dog gets frustrated and develops aggression. 

It starts as a pup, people think their pup is friendly wants to meet every dog and person it sees. Then it matures and it's intentions get more serious with dogs, due to the hormone change and dog starts acting more territorialy, looking for mates and weighing up the competition. Owner needs to step in and let dog know this behavior is not tolerated or else it gets ingrained.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> I liked your explanation Chip. Leash pop, sideways, gets the brains attention, pulling back on leash give the dog drive forward, opposition reflex.
> 
> Leash aggression comes from people pulling back on leash when dog wants to go forward and sniff butt. Dog gets frustrated and develops aggression.
> 
> It starts as a pup, people think their pup is friendly wants to meet every dog and person it sees. Then it matures and it's intentions get more serious with dogs, due to the hormone change and dog starts acting more territorialy, looking for mates and weighing up the competition. Owner needs to step in and let dog know this behavior is not tolerated or else it gets ingrained.


My "interpretation" above but something I read somewhere. 

As it happens since I was already good at the flat leash and collar thing. At my first "Boxer and Buddies" rescue event they gave me a SLL and said ... this dog pulls ... yeah right. :grin2:

I'd never seen one before a SLL, but how it was "supposed" to be used seemed readily apparent "to me" so I positioned it properly and that was pretty much it. 

It took even less that I was use to and the dog was a dream to walk!

I handed him over at the end of the day ... and off he goes dragging the handler behind him! 

It's not the tool it's the handler! But the tug sideways, I figured it out long ago, but I did read it somewhere a few months ago?? Lost track of where, I found it?? I figured "everyone" knows this?? Soooo I had to recreate the explanation in my own rather "over blown" fashion. :grin2:

The PC and my dogs reaction to it is a legitimate question but not my concern, someone would ... "sigh" have to get past me to annoy my dogs with one.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> A "slight tug" sideways throws a dog off center. "Sideways Corrections"they don't like and aren't eager to have it happen again. You should be able to see them recenter themselves, they aren't eager to have it happen again.


I can't remember which mod on here said it, but she stated that with all the videos she watched of dog reactive dogs, leash reactive, etc., on YouTube, she never saw a video clip of a dog that she thought was actually reactive and certainly none that compared to the way her dog once was. I have to agree with that and wonder, nothing personal, if you ever handled or actually have seen a large breed dog that is reactive in action. Trust me, a "slight tug" will go unnoticed and will not throw a dog off that is lunging, screaming, scrabbling, and doing a host of other bad behaviors. The dogs can throw themselves off center with their own antics (falling off of curbs, falling down steps, etc.) and they keep on reacting. Dogs have a remarkable capacity to recenter themselves, and I never saw a dog that let being knocked off center deter it from being reactive unless being knocked off center was from a hard correction. Maybe this might work with a smaller or softer dog, or a dog that has not yet begun to react, but I just don't see it happening once a dog has entered the red zone.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Makes sense. My rescue boy was always getting loose and wandering the streets on his own. Finally the owners let AC keep him. He is the most dog savvy dog I've ever owned.




Baillif said:


> That's why you rarely see stray dogs attacking each other in third world countries. Nobody's got a leash on them training them to do it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Makes sense. My rescue boy was always getting loose and wandering the streets on his own. Finally the owners let AC keep him. He is the most dog savvy dog I've ever owned.


Ha! That is where I learned it from the street dogs in the old neighborhood. Boy those dogs were smart too! Common sense smart. School of hard knocks.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I can't remember which mod on here said it, but she stated that with all the videos she watched of dog reactive dogs, leash reactive, etc., on YouTube, she never saw a video clip of a dog that she thought was actually reactive and certainly none that compared to the way her dog once was. I have to agree with that and wonder, nothing personal, if you ever handled or actually have seen a large breed dog that is reactive in action. Trust me, a "slight tug" will go unnoticed and will not throw a dog off that is lunging, screaming, scrabbling, and doing a host of other bad behaviors. The dogs can throw themselves off center with their own antics (falling off of curbs, falling down steps, etc.) and they keep on reacting. Dogs have a remarkable capacity to recenter themselves, and I never saw a dog that let being knocked off center deter it from being reactive unless being knocked off center was from a hard correction. Maybe this might work with a smaller or softer dog, or a dog that has not yet begun to react, but I just don't see it happening once a dog has entered the red zone.


That's fair and nope I haven't ever deal with such a "leash monster." Jeff worked with a pack of mountain dogs and they were using SLL's and he he switched to prongs, he said the dogs were going to kill themselves if they would have persisted with the SLL's! 


Personally ... I disagree but he's the expert. 

But unfortunately for me??? Whatever a dog's bad habits are?? When "I" get them ... it just doesn't happen?? Deer dog comes to mind. Numerous strays ... same old same old, no problems. 

But if I did have a real A-Hole of a dog?? I'd have no problem "ramping up" a "sideways" correction until I get the desired response, which would be ... "nothing" ... that dog is not your concern dog ... get over it! So if need be "over you go." Get up and let's try again or DDC time?? Same tool, depends on the dog, how it gets used??

Start low and ramp up as and if required, I gots no problem with that. But to your point yeah ... I gotta work with more dogs. 

And I do know the clip ... here you, this is what the comment was addressed to, they said there dog was worst!
:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo

Brick, they said there dog was worst then him! 

For the record "Brick" was adopted out and is doing just fine today, someone asked Jeff about him on his weekly show, the other day.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> That's fair and nope I haven't ever deal with such a "leash monster." Jeff worked with a pack of mountain dogs and they were using SLL's and he he switched to prongs, he said the dogs were going to kill themselves if they would have persisted with the SLL's!
> 
> 
> Personally ... I disagree but he's the expert.
> ...


I only watched the first part where they said the dog was only playing, bad in obedience and badly behaved. I agree, I would say just a bit unruly. Nothing reactive there.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*But if I did have a real A-Hole of a dog?? I'd have no problem "ramping up" a "sideways" correction until I get the desired response, which would be ... "nothing" ... that dog is not your concern dog ... get over it! So if need be "over you go." Get up and let's try again or DDC time?? Same tool, depends on the dog, how it gets used??

Start low and ramp up as and if required, I gots no problem with that. But to your point yeah ... I gotta work with more dogs.*

Be careful "ramping up" a sideways correction or any other correction with a real A hole of a dog. You might get more than you bargained for. "Over you go" will get a lot of people bit. I am not a fan of alpha rolling dogs or letting a dog up to correct again. 

The DDC is good if used properly works, but few have dogs that really needed and rarely those that do know how to effectively use it. 

Starting low and ramping up as required is another flawed approach, IMO. Start with an appropriate correction for the hardness of the dog and correct above that level. A correction should be appropriate from the beginning for the dog, to immediately extinguish the undesirable behavior. "Starting low and ramping up" will possibly intensify the behavior rather than eliminate it. This is the issue with most pet owners that do not understand how to deliver an appropriate correction. There is no need to "ramp up" a properly delivered and appropriate correction.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I wish I had your experience with Pits and small breeds, IME it is just the opposite.
> 
> Regardless, with small dogs, nature or nurture?
> 
> ...


It's both.

Nature sets them up as far as genetic propensity to be afraid of, edgy around, or bark at other dogs or even just otherwise get excited. Genetic propensity for prey drive, defensiveness, or strength of opposition reflex also comes into play.

The nurture part comes in with the leash that sets up a situation where the dog barks lunges gets agitated at another dog because the owner gets their dog too close to another dog that bothers their dog. The owners leash pressure in the other direction causes opposition reflex toward the other dog. The dragging them away from the other dog causes negative reinforcement for the behavior while simultaneously building drive for moving toward that other dog. 

Also lack of socialization in good contexts with good experiences plays a factor as well. In the right (or wrong mixtures) of these factors they come together to train an attacker.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> It's both.
> 
> Nature sets them up as far as genetic propensity to be afraid of, edgy around, or bark at other dogs or even just otherwise get excited. Genetic propensity for prey drive, defensiveness, or strength of opposition reflex also comes into play.
> 
> ...


Just to make sure we are on the same page, I was asking about your comment about small dogs being the worst. 

1) If a small dog is prone to attack a larger dog based on prey drive, are you saying that the small dog views its own kind, albeit much larger, as prey?

2) I understand the leash aggression, but most are complaining that these small dogs are always loose. Are there other things the owners may be doing to create the reactivity and aggression? Such as always carrying them?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Prey drive is more a term that encompasses the instincts of chase attack bite kill etc. Does it mean they see the other dog as prey? Not necessarily. 

In the case of 2. The aggression can be created with the help of a leash but after that the leash doesn't need to be present. When we start our bite work dogs the leash or back tie goes away eventually. They still attack and bite in the absence of the leash. There are other things that can cause that reaction too like barrier aggression. Dogs that are behind windows or fences that get all spun up wanting to chase and attack something outside. So leash aggression isn't the only behavior or situation that breeds aggressive behavior. Barrier aggression is another potent cause, so for all of you guys with chainlink fences where your dogs fence fight with other dogs or people walking by that can cause an attack just as easily. Once that aggression and state of mind is conditioned you can take the leash or fence away and the behavior can (and very often does) still occur. 

Allowing dogs in your house to fight to settle their issues is another picture that causes that kind of behavior.

It isn't all leashes.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are cases where the fence does need to be present to cause the behavior though. Like here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> *But if I did have a real A-Hole of a dog?? I'd have no problem "ramping up" a "sideways" correction until I get the desired response, which would be ... "nothing" ... that dog is not your concern dog ... get over it! So if need be "over you go." Get up and let's try again or DDC time?? Same tool, depends on the dog, how it gets used??
> 
> Start low and ramp up as and if required, I gots no problem with that. But to your point yeah ... I gotta work with more dogs.*
> 
> ...


Oh I appreciate the insight but fear not I tend to be rather "dramatic in writing about what "I"would do. In the real world to outside observers ... there is nothing to see, behaviour appropriate corrections if required, nothing to see. 

For others I tend to post clips from trainers that show there work. So "ramping up" was a "poor choice of words on part" my bad. Not suggesting Alpha Rolling?? I was suggesting, I would pull a dog over hard enough to pull him over. And nope got not clips on anyone doing that?? DDC would be much more appropriate with a hard core case. 

So basically a "UP Leash Dog Caution" I have heard of them never seen one?? As I say gotta work with more dogs. For the record the WL GSD for me just kinda happened. Rocky was just a big furry dog with a funny face. Proved to be much more that that however! But I was looking at "Dogos" and got side tracked with American Band Dawgs, APBT/Boxers and Boxers, still all in the Molosser family, that was my comfort zone. Fell in luv with goofy however (Boxers) so my OS WL GSD?? Failed foster and yeah I had a whole different set of "issues" with that guy! But it's all good, I luv WL GSD's ... but I don't recommend them to JQP, better for the breed.  

Anyway wildtangent by way of "further explanation" I blame MAWL she knows if I say enough ... I'll go there. I was setup.:












:laugh2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is pretty much what I posted about free roaming dogs prior to leash laws and also for the area I live now where people walk their dogs off leash. We have very few aggressive dog problems of non fighting breeds.
> 
> I will disagree about breeds though, as I have seen way too many times where Pit Bulls were brought to dog parks since little pups and never had a problem until they mature, and then boom, it is like a flip switched. In fact, that is the way it was with the one dog aggressive dog I owned. He was great until two years of age and then it was over night he became dog aggressive.
> 
> Speaking of two years of age, I have yet to see in the dog parks around me where a Pit Bull has been able to make it past 2 years of age without becoming seriously dog aggressive and have to be kept out of the park despite being kept off leash for 2 years.


Oh I have no idea what JQP does to create or further enhance "Pit" and there "Derivatives" issues but I can say, it does not take two years to understand you have a "Dog" problem.

Most likely when they first went into a "Dog Park" they ignored early warning signs?? Gunther was barely 8 months (American Band Dawg) and I saw something?? I was concerned enough to seek help??

The trainer said no not Dog Aggressive just an A-Hole (Dominate Male) So for me no problem, no Dog Parks and ignore other dogs worked out fine.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> It's both.
> 
> Nature sets them up as far as genetic propensity to be afraid of, edgy around, or bark at other dogs or even just otherwise get excited. Genetic propensity for prey drive, defensiveness, or strength of opposition reflex also comes into play.
> 
> ...


So would one be correct to assume that a person(s) consistently holding a small breed of dog could be considered a source of barrier frustration?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Constantly holding a small breed dog probably wouldn't contribute to that, no. I think the picture is too different. I haven't seen many small dogs get super barky while being held.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh I have no idea what JQP does to create or further enhance "Pit" and there "Derivatives" issues but I can say, it does not take two years to understand you have a "Dog" problem.
> 
> Most likely when they first went into a "Dog Park" they ignored early warning signs?? Gunther was barely 8 months (American Band Dawg) and I saw something?? I was concerned enough to seek help??
> 
> The trainer said no not Dog Aggressive just an A-Hole (Dominate Male) So for me no problem, no Dog Parks and ignore other dogs worked out fine.


I would not say that though others might disagree. Individual dogs mature at different ages and many things don't show up until maturity. I can't speak for other dog breeds but the one DA GSD I owned like all of the Pits I have seen through the years became aggressive with the flip of a switch, no prior signs or warnings that I or their owners ever saw. 

The first time I ever took my puppy to a dog park, he was three months old and played well with everybody and they with him. Somebody brought a Pit and he played nicely with everybody. The following week, rinse and repeat, except this time the same Pit that had played so nicely came through the gate and made a beeline to my puppy who was laying under a picnic table in the shade with his back to the Pit. The attack was totally unprovoked and the Pit gave no warning, just barged through the gate and went straight for the kill. Third week, rinse and repeat, same Pit Bull came to dog park but this time there was warning as he saw dogs on the walk to the park we all watched as he lunged and struggled to attack the other dogs leaving. The people never brought him back. This Pit was well known at the dog park, about six months old, and according to other regulars had been coming to the dog park with no issue for months.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Constantly holding a small breed dog probably wouldn't contribute to that, no. I think the picture is too different. I haven't seen many small dogs get super barky while being held.


Wow! I have seen some of the worst aggression in small breeds when being held and tons of reactivity. I have rarely seen one on a leash, that is why I questioned it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dog going for another dog while being held and the person is standing though? I can't say I've seen a whole lot of that. I've seen dogs go for people that reach over to pet them or try to take them from their owner while being held. I've seen people holding a dog in their lap while sitting and another dog tries to come over and get snapped at. But I can't say I've seen much of someone holding a dog and it barking at a dog on the ground while being held in the standing position. I don't see that as barrier aggression that falls more under resource guarding but yeah in those pictures it can cause aggression sure.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Dog going for another dog while being held and the person is standing though? I can't say I've seen a whole lot of that. I've seen dogs go for people that reach over to pet them or try to take them from their owner while being held.


That is when I see the most DA or HA with small dogs. I usually just see nuisance yapping when they are loose on the ground. Then again, maybe it has much to do with them often being off lead a lot in my area. I don't know, not much small breed experience here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would not say that though others might disagree. Individual dogs mature at different ages and many things don't show up until maturity. I can't speak for other dog breeds but the one DA GSD I owned like all of the Pits I have seen through the years became aggressive with the flip of a switch, no prior signs or warnings that I or their owners ever saw.
> 
> The first time I ever took my puppy to a dog park, he was three months old and played well with everybody and they with him. Somebody brought a Pit and he played nicely with everybody. The following week, rinse and repeat, except this time the same Pit that had played so nicely came through the gate and made a beeline to my puppy who was laying under a picnic table in the shade with his back to the Pit. The attack was totally unprovoked and the Pit gave no warning, just barged through the gate and went straight for the kill. Third week, rinse and repeat, same Pit Bull came to dog park but this time there was warning as he saw dogs on the walk to the park we all watched as he lunged and struggled to attack the other dogs leaving. The people never brought him back. This Pit was well known at the dog park, about six months old, and according to other regulars had been coming to the dog park with no issue for months.


I can only speak to my own experience with my guy but that "Pitty" playing well for awhile or not ... I'd bet there were signs that there might be a problem here way before he attacked another dog??

They just figured it would "all work out" and weren't concerned about the dogs/puppies of other people. I was myself and took steps early on, Reactive or Aggressive I did not care "Don't be acting like a fool dog, is my moto." ... sorry your puppy got hurt.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> I can only speak to my own experience with my guy but that "Pitty" playing well for awhile or not ... I'd bet there were signs that there might be a problem here way before he attacked another dog??
> 
> They just figured it would "all work out" and weren't concerned about the dogs/puppies of other people. I was myself and took steps early on, Reactive or Aggressive I did not care "Don't be acting like a fool dog, is my moto." ... sorry your puppy got hurt.


I had only met the Pit once before, seemed well behaved. He was only six months old. Dog park people are pretty savvy with dog body language. You could be right but I can't see all those experienced people missing it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I had only met the Pit once before, seemed well behaved. He was only six months old. Dog park people are pretty savvy with dog body language. You could be right but I can't see all those experienced people missing it.


LOL six months old!! What did I say?? Gunther was 7 or 8 months old??

Petco incident ... I was a "I thought my dog was friendly person??" It was a Boxer puppy!!! 

Both dogs straining at the leashes,him coming in me going out. He asked if my dog was friendly ... I said sure??? Gunther met the puppy (much smaller than he was) slapped him down to the ground and went to bite him in the back!!

But to my credit I was always cautious, so I was "right there" and stuck my hand in the way. I wasn't hurt and neither was the puppy, not physically anyway. But it was after that, I found a trainer and got an assessment on Gunther and as stated before ... your dog is just an "A-Hole" was the call

It would be many years before Gunther got close to another dog again "taught to ignore and no Dog Parks" and when he did ... no problems. Later on in fact it turned out he luv'd puppies, he did great job with Heidi, Stewie and Struddell. 

But I'd bet those "Pittie" folks had seen something similar in there dogs behavior and figured it would ... just work out ... don't know??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL six months old!! What did I say?? Gunther was 7 or 8 months old??
> 
> Petco incident ... I was a "I thought my dog was friendly person??" It was a Boxer puppy!!!
> 
> ...


I don't know, they seemed genuinely surprised at the onset of the dog aggression.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't know, they seemed genuinely surprised at the onset of the dog aggression.


Yes ... kinda like me! But apparently even then ... I was better equipped to deal, then most?? Gunther was my first dog as an adult.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Yes ... kinda like me! But apparently even then ... I was better equipped to deal, then most?? Gunther was my first dog as an adult.


Holy moly! You're pert near virgin! :wink2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Holy moly! You're pert near virgin! :wink2:


 2000 to 2010 Gunther, learned a lot from him but not quite enough to deal with Rocky!

Rank issues and Human Aggression, that was a loss for me with the pack thing Gunther passed but a win for the HA thing. 

School of hard knocks with my first WL GSD ... first stitches ever (breaking up dog fights the wrong way) and the whole HA thing ... WL GSD is not a people luv'ing Boxer??? But it's all good today. 

As I am want to say:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is when I see the most DA or HA with small dogs. I usually just see nuisance yapping when they are loose on the ground. Then again, maybe it has much to do with them often being off lead a lot in my area. I don't know, not much small breed experience here.


Usually what I've noticed is people as a strategy have a small leash reactive dog and they pick the dog up when it does it. Usually I've seen this stop the dog from being reactive which is why it becomes a go to strategy. I can't say I've seen any attacks from there though in those situations.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Many owners put there arms around the dog to console it after it has acted aggressively whether it was barking or lunging, or snap attack.

They simply don't know what else to do. Not accustomed to expecting better behavior or to correcting the dog or being aggressive towards the dog in any way. So they hug it like a teddy bear, saying, 'it's ok'. 

I simply think this is confusing for the dog too. It doesn't understand the humans reaction. I see it as weak behavior in animal terms. If the dog steps out of line, owner should immediately correct it, verbally or physically. 

Another problem is people don't really see this aggressive display by the dog as bad. They think being strict with the dog and expecting obedience is cruel. 

Anyways, Always gonna get polarized opinions on what is right and wrong in dog behavior.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

MAWL


> Trust me, a "slight tug" will go unnoticed and will not throw a dog off that is lung...I never saw a dog that let being knocked off center deter it from being reactive unless being knocked off center was from a hard correction.


The point would be to train the dog before it gets reactive. When it gets trained in low distraction it can work up to higher distractions.

Trying to stop a dog in that frenzied state you described is totally different than teaching a dog not to be reactive. Once a dog is kicking off, the hormones and endorphin's and whatever is going on in the mind is driving the dog. It is hard to battle that with single technique.

Also no single technique is able to cure everything. Need rewards and punishment in tandem to achieve results whether it is stopping re-activity or teaching it things.

But do check out Tyler mutos techniques. He does post impressive transformations of his clients reactive dogs using simple leash techniques and place/stay command. It is about working the energy of the dog, and developing a relationship where it wants to look to the handler for guidance rather than pull away from.



> they seemed genuinely surprised at the onset of the dog aggression.


People who's dogs suddenly 'switch' at 2 or whatever, are simply living in an illusion for the start of the dogs life. They don't know what they are doing and they create the issues. They don't see the signs that the dog is gonna get aggressive in future when it doesn't get what it wants.

There is also the whole hormones thing, bitches in heat, competition, dogs wanting to dominate etc. Every owner of a dog will need to step up and deal with issues at some stage. It's whether people are prepared and know what to do which decides if behaviors get ingrained.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

It's interesting a few of you are noting unwanted interactive behavior at a similar age bracket.
My rescued dog...we're not 100% sure on his age, but would say we're within a month of correctness.

Estimate him being 5 months when we got him. Was socialised at our massive local dog park. Went pretty much every day. As he hit a certain age...7 months was it? Smaller/young pups were somewhat an issue. He was fine with them...until they unknowingly did wrong (small pups don't have proper dog-dog etiquette and may do challenging things by mistake, such as direct eye contact, posture, and jumping up). At 7 months...he still wasn't an adult to be giving "the puppy pass" that adult dogs give to teach a young pup how to properly interact. But, he wasn't small anymore and didn't fully know how to let a puppy know it did wrong...so when a pup did wrong, he'd instantly put it on its side (just a single push with a paw), keep his foot over it, and scruf it. He never growled. Never did a puppy yap/cry. Certainly never a wound on the younger pups. But....it looked extremely bad due to the size difference. So, we just kept him away from little puppies. Occasionally checked his interaction with small pups. After EXACTLY one month after it started...completely gone. Hormone changes? That's my guess. But he didn't give a thought to puppies and how they acted with him. He pretty much just blew them off and looked for more interesting things.

Not too long ago at around 11.5 months old he met both a 4.5 month Australian Shepherd and 4 month lab at the park we tend to go to on the weekends (normal one is too crowded on weekends...people even come from neighboring states for it). He does amazing with them the couple of times we've met them. He's like a big brother with them.

We recently found a puppy inside the wall of a building. Estimate 5 weeks old when found. He was just over a year. She's about 7.5 weeks now & he's almost 13 months now. We believe she is a Chichuau/Boston Terrier mix. Very tiny dog. She's still only 33 ounces! She makes the Chichuau noises when really riled up.
His behavior with her is superb. She annoys the heck out of him, too. He'll just be trying to relax and then she'll start hopping all over him and grabbing at his face, making all kinds of noises. He just moves his head side to side. Sometimes lays his face on top of her, which results in her doing cute butt wiggled as she shimmies herself out.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Summer's first full blown DA outburst was an odd situation. I heard a noise in the alley paralleling my property and also a car idling parked very close to my fence.

I looked over the top of the fence (Summer has a peephole and was looking thru that but calm. When I looked over my fence I saw the car passenger door was open (door closest to my fence) and there was a woman across the alley getting boxes from the adjoining business.

It happened fast - her Pit in the car saw my head and leapt out of the car at me and hit my fence just below my head. Summer went ballistic and there was a fight between her and the Pit thru the fence - the woman was unable to recall her dog and I said lady you better do something because my dog is getting ready to come over the top of this fence and I don't have a collar on her and you do yours. 

She then grabbed her dog's collar and dragged him back to the car and uttered apologies as she was leaving. 

Before that time, a few barks at dogs going down the alley, nothing serious. Since that time - full blown DA display by any dog that gets up on our embankment and runs our fence line.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> MAWL
> 
> The point would be to train the dog before it gets reactive. When it gets trained in low distraction it can work up to higher distractions.
> 
> ...


Uh, wrong messenger. It was Chip promoting those techniques. I was the one in disagreement. Please stop twisting my comments to mean things I never said and please address your comments to the appropriate people, not the ones who are a convenient target to carry out your personal agenda. The mods have already pointed out just a few hours ago that your criticism of my comments are not on target. If I were looking for advice, I would ask one of my dogs' breeders, a trainer, or, at the very least, that of somebody who has personal experience owning a German Shepherd.



MadLab said:


> People who's dogs suddenly 'switch' at 2 or whatever, are simply living in an illusion for the start of the dogs life. They don't know what they are doing and they create the issues. They don't see the signs that the dog is gonna get aggressive in future when it doesn't get what it wants.
> 
> There is also the whole hormones thing, bitches in heat, competition, dogs wanting to dominate etc. Every owner of a dog will need to step up and deal with issues at some stage. It's whether people are prepared and know what to do which decides if behaviors get ingrained.


A dog that is happy, friendly, plays extremely well with all dogs, etc., is not a sign of dog aggression to come. I have raised far more dogs than you and probably own more now than you ever will in your lifetime. Nurture had nothing to do with any dog aggression or reactivity. They were all raised and trained the same. On the other hand, making a point to research and discuss dog aggression with my breeders and carefully choosing lines not known for dog aggression have paid off well. 

Alternatively, genetic dog aggression and maturity are very clear signs if you know your dog has been bred for over a hundred years for dog aggression or may have the genes in their lines. Ask any breeder with experience. So, yes, you don't need to "see" signs, but knowing that a dog has been genetically bred for over one hundred years to be dog aggressive is a clear sign of things to come. Denying nature in favor of pure nurture for JQP is usually a recipe for disaster.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Oh! Forgot to mention this, too:

Another regular at the local massive park has two Jack Russell Terriers. First time meeting? He only had his male one with him and it quickly stood its ground, hackles up and barking, as a 'big' 5 month dog (mine) was begging it to play. He was whining, crouching/bowing, hopping in circles...everything to get that JRT to play with him. Just had him move along and leave him alone. Throughout the next couple months we would see the guy with both. Our dog picked up quickly that Skip just didn't want to play. Didn't see him for a period of time...and then I saw his female. She had just given birth! Once they hit about 6 weeks, he starting bringing them. With both mom and dad. Yea, pretty scary thought/situation...but the mother never snaps at other dogs near her pups. This is now around mine being about 11 months old? I wondered how the male who used to hate my dog would be. Turns out perfectly fine. He sees that mine isn't a super young pup anymore and has proper dog-dog manners. It was really funny, because mine would walk with them all, as if he was one of their puppies.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> The mods have already pointed out just a few hours ago that your criticism of my comments are not on target.


That is a stretch. A mod, the op, didn't get my point. Not a biggie. People do have different opinions and do regularly disagree here.

Your temperament test is whether it can go to a dog park or not. I have not seen any evidence of your vast experience in dog handling or training. sorry. Only discussing behavior here. If another breed rather than a rott had been mentioned in that thread you'd have a totally different answer. 

Any ways the quote i was speaking about was 90 in this thread. It was you who


> Trust me, a "slight tug" will go unnoticed and will not throw a dog off


My point was a slight tug will actually stop the lead up to many aggressive displays if the handler knows what he is doing and sees the trouble brewing. Once the dog gets it and the owner backs it up the dog will not go a frenzied state.

The "lunging, screaming, scrabbling, and doing a host of other bad behaviors." sound like over excitement to me. You think more of it. It is the precursor to attack maybe in your mind? I'm sure you could train a dog to act like that by simply not knowing how to use a leash and standard collar.



> Trust me, a "slight tug" will go unnoticed and will not throw a dog off that is lunging, screaming, scrabbling, and doing a host of other bad behaviors. The dogs can throw themselves off center with their own antics (falling off of curbs, falling down steps, etc.) and they keep on reacting. Dogs have a remarkable capacity to recenter themselves, and I never saw a dog that let being knocked off center deter it from being reactive unless being knocked off center was from a hard correction. Maybe this might work with a smaller or softer dog, or a dog that has not yet begun to react, but I just don't see it happening once a dog has entered the red zone.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> MAWL
> 
> The point would be to train the dog before it gets reactive. When it gets trained in low distraction it can work up to higher distractions.
> 
> ...


Aww Geezz, yeah "I'm" the slight tug sideways guy. 

And to be accurate it's done, the instant the looks like maybe perhaps, possibly ... I'll act like a fool??

If the dog goes over the top, you've waited to long, time to turn around and try again. 

As Slamdunc "accurately" pointed out if you try and fight through that with the wrong dog, you could get ...hurt! Short of hanging the dog, the battle is lost and since it's "Pet People" at issue here?? Best call is to disengage (turn around) and try again. 

Slight tug sideways "before" the explosion,if you miss it, turn around try again and one would better know what to look for.  

Tylor ticked me off with the over use I felt of treats with a "Pitty" he was training in "Place." Other than that I like the guy's work. >

One of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qT5Z03VMw


Sooo how does that happen???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Saito said:


> Oh! Forgot to mention this, too:
> 
> Another regular at the local massive park has two Jack Russell Terriers. First time meeting? He only had his male one with him and it quickly stood its ground, hackles up and barking, as a 'big' 5 month dog (mine) was begging it to play. He was whining, crouching/bowing, hopping in circles...everything to get that JRT to play with him. Just had him move along and leave him alone. Throughout the next couple months we would see the guy with both. Our dog picked up quickly that Skip just didn't want to play. Didn't see him for a period of time...and then I saw his female. She had just given birth! Once they hit about 6 weeks, he starting bringing them. With both mom and dad. Yea, pretty scary thought/situation...but the mother never snaps at other dogs near her pups. This is now around mine being about 11 months old? I wondered how the male who used to hate my dog would be. Turns out perfectly fine. He sees that mine isn't a super young pup anymore and has proper dog-dog manners. It was really funny, because mine would walk with them all, as if he was one of their puppies.


It's a good story, you have a very good dog there. 

But I tend to worry more about running into the ones more like "Shelly." My guy never got that bad, but since I had one with that "potential" I figured there must be more like him out there.

And ... most likely ... they'd be at the local Dog Park??? I don't know this to be true, on account of I never went to one, with any of my "Bullies." Worked out fine.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> That is a stretch. A mod, the op, didn't get my point. Not a biggie. People do have different opinions and do regularly disagree here.
> 
> Your temperament test is whether it can go to a dog park or not. I have not seen any evidence of your vast experience in dog handling or training. sorry. Only discussing behavior here. If another breed rather than a rott had been mentioned in that thread you'd have a totally different answer.


Not all breeds, or lines of any breed, are intended to be pets. I have not seen any evidence of your vast experience in German Shepherd handling or training. Sorry. Only discussing behavior here.



MadLab said:


> Any ways the quote i was speaking about was 90 in this thread. It was you who
> 
> 
> My point was a slight tug will actually stop the lead up to many aggressive displays if the handler knows what he is doing and sees the trouble brewing. Once the dog gets it and the owner backs it up the dog will not go a frenzied state.


Ding ding ding, did you not see it was me asking Chip at what point does he apply his method of a slight tug to the dog? I am more than well aware of correcting a dog before it enters the red zone. My question was since CHIP was giving out advice, was when did he think JQP should do this, depending on CHIP'S explanation of HIS method, what JQP should expect.




MadLab said:


> The "lunging, screaming, scrabbling, and doing a host of other bad behaviors." sound like over excitement to me. You think more of it. It is the precursor to attack maybe in your mind? I'm sure you could train a dog to act like that by simply not knowing how to use a leash and standard collar.


Your point?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The "lunging, screaming, scrabbling, and doing a host of other bad behaviors." sound like over excitement to me. You think more of it. It is the precursor to attack maybe in your mind? I'm sure you could train a dog to act like that by simply not knowing how to use a leash and standard collar.


> Your point?


My point is those behaviors can be simple a miss use of the leash creating aggression eventually. Then the dog is reacting aggressively and you think it is his breeding or lack of it.

You said recently that you "can't be dealing with that crap" when i asked you why you didn't counter condition your aggressive dog.

You are simply not comfortable with aggression, and so your emotional reaction to it, but it is intrinsic to dogs of all breeds, as it is a part of there genetic makeup. We don't see canine teeth evolving into grazing teeth for example. And so there is a portion of the dogs mind with built in aggression to go with the reality of being a predator.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> The "lunging, screaming, scrabbling, and doing a host of other bad behaviors." sound like over excitement to me. You think more of it. It is the precursor to attack maybe in your mind? I'm sure you could train a dog to act like that by simply not knowing how to use a leash and standard collar.
> 
> 
> My point is those behaviors can be simple a miss use of the leash creating aggression eventually. Then the dog is reacting aggressively and you think it is his breeding or lack of it.


I know this. It was Chip that was missing that point. Why do you keep directing this to me? Really, how many times must I repeat this? Go tell Chip, he was the one misunderstanding.



MadLab said:


> You said recently that you "can't be dealing with that crap" when i asked you why you didn't counter condition your aggressive dog.
> 
> You are simply not comfortable with aggression, and so your emotional reaction to it, but it is intrinsic to dogs of all breeds, as it is a part of there genetic makeup. We don't see canine teeth evolving into grazing teeth for example. And so there is a portion of the dogs mind with built in aggression to go with the reality of being a predator.


I love appropriately aggressive dogs or I would not own workingline GSDs. What a silly comment. I despise useless animal to animal aggression. It serves no purpose. I get nothing out of owning a dog that can kill somebody else's dog. What a silly excuse for overcompensating for inadequacies.

Regarding my dog aggressive dog, I don't believe in rehab or cures. Yes, I could have put stronger training on him but what for? The places I would have taken him are full of dogs and I don't have any God given right to use other people's dogs as bait animals should mine have broken training. It is called respect for other people and their pets. Something that seems to elude your comprehension.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Regarding my dog aggressive dog, *I don't believe in rehab or cures.* Yes, I could have put stronger training on him but what for? The places I would have taken him are *full of dogs *and I don't have any God given right to use other people's dogs as *bait animals *should mine have broken training.


Would the place which is full of dogs be a dog park by any chance?

Whats wrong with just training a dog to be non aggressive on leash and not let him off it. Dog still gets to go out. Dog doesn't have to be a threat to any pet, with good handling. 

Bit of training might pay off. 



> Yes, I could have put stronger training on him but what for?


To give the dog a chance. You don't know until you try, employ a trainer, but if you think something is unfix-able then it'll probably never change.




> It is called respect for other people and their pets. Something that seems to elude your comprehension.


I'm all for respect for dogs and their true nature and making sure they are not a threat to anyone or there pet. Maybe it is my comprehension on your theories on dog behavior that is lacking.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> Would the place which is full of dogs be a dog park by any chance?


Actually, no, they did not have dog parks / doggie day care back then that I was aware of.



MadLab said:


> Whats wrong with just training a dog to be non aggressive on leash and not let him off it. Dog still gets to go out. Dog doesn't have to be a threat to any pet, with good handling.
> 
> Bit of training might pay off.


I don't believe that you can teach a dog that is genetically aggressive to be non aggressive. If you had followed the other thread, you would have read where without continued lifetime reinforcement, genetically DA dogs will regress. To me, that denotes a lifetime of management and control, not a "cure".

Why leash a dog and take him out? Why not just let him loose in a fenced backyard? I like to enjoy my walks. I want my dogs to enjoy walking too. I don't believe leash walking is exercise, nor do I believe that dogs enjoy it all that much. Beats sitting home to them, but certainly no fun. I prefer my dogs to perform agility, swimming, tracking, lure coursing and other fun venues in the playground provided by mother nature, can't do that on a leash. I would rather leave the dog at home rather than tempt it with all these fun things to do but refuse to allow him to do them. I find that rather cruel.



MadLab said:


> To give the dog a chance. You don't know until you try, employ a trainer, but if you think something is unfix-able then it'll probably never change.


That dog died in the early 80s, the point is moot.




MadLab said:


> I'm all for respect for dogs and their true nature and making sure they are not a threat to anyone or there pet. Maybe it is my comprehension on your theories on dog behavior that is lacking.


A civil post! What did you do with MadLab? :grin2:


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

I want to jump in and clear up some confusion re: the law. I am not sure where you are, and I am only licensed in CA and Idaho, so if you are somewhere else the law might be different. First, you are not liable even if she says your dog bit her. The aspects of the event speak for itself as to the logic of what happened. Let me explain.

If she lies and says that her dog was leashed and that your dog attacked hers first. The evidence shows different. Her dog had no bite marks, yours did. Your dog was bitten in the back of its rear legs, suggesting that her dog came from behind. She would have to explain why her dog on a leash was able to approach your dog three times. Trust me not all judges are big dummies. In fact, I say take her to Judge Judy (I am serious) she yells at irresponsible owners all the time and she can tell from the evidence that they are lying.

All the legal mumbo jumbo aside. Don't let her get away with this. Next time the next dog owner might not be so lucky. It is doubtful that she will learn from this incident unless there is some consequence to her, such as pay the vet bill or fine from AC.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Cheyanna said:


> I want to jump in and clear up some confusion re: the law. I am not sure where you are, and I am only licensed in CA and Idaho, so if you are somewhere else the law might be different. First, you are not liable even if she says your dog bit her. The aspects of the event speak for itself as to the logic of what happened. Let me explain.


Hi Cheyanna; I was wondering what might happen if this woman had reported that it was not her dog that bit her but Voodoo's dog when she grabbed her own.

Also, If this scenario were a little different in that a bystander intervened in separating the dogs and was bitten by either dog - do the courts take that as a bite period or do they understand that the bystander just did the equivalent of putting his hand between a chainsaw and wood chipper and took his own chances so there would be a no fault for injuries? Thanks and Hi from Coeur d' Alene!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Good news! 

My trainer let me come and sit in with a beginners obedience class this evening, That had a few small fluffy doodle type dogs. 

I am glad to say that Mako was unfazed by them. He worked like a champ. 

I wasnt even charged for the session! Mako earned his keep though. He was the demo dog for the evening as the trainer's bitch is in heat. 

I kinda think enjoyed being the center of attention like that. Such a ham lol.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thats great! All the pups were thinking "look! he's a warrior pup! He's got battle wounds"!!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Cheyanna said:


> I want to jump in and clear up some confusion re: the law. I am not sure where you are, and I am only licensed in CA and Idaho, so if you are somewhere else the law might be different. First, you are not liable even if she says your dog bit her. The aspects of the event speak for itself as to the logic of what happened. Let me explain.
> 
> If she lies and says that her dog was leashed and that your dog attacked hers first. The evidence shows different. Her dog had no bite marks, yours did. Your dog was bitten in the back of its rear legs, suggesting that her dog came from behind. She would have to explain why her dog on a leash was able to approach your dog three times. Trust me not all judges are big dummies. In fact, I say take her to Judge Judy (I am serious) she yells at irresponsible owners all the time and she can tell from the evidence that they are lying.
> 
> All the legal mumbo jumbo aside. Don't let her get away with this. Next time the next dog owner might not be so lucky. It is doubtful that she will learn from this incident unless there is some consequence to her, such as pay the vet bill or fine from AC.


Here is a recent incident in the news where a dog got attacked but the owner of the attacker lied and said her daughter, who was walking the dog, got bit.

Pit bull mix attacks elderly dog; wounded dog accused of attack | WNWO


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like the police got it right, probably because there was a child involved. It sounds like Animal Control got it wrong, and quarantined he dog on the word of the one owner. I'm sorry, but I just cannot gamble my dog's life on the premise that the law will come out right in the end. They are not necessarily going to put a lot of resources in a dog-dog-owner-owner conflict, and if they get it wrong...

Yep, I will do my utmost to avoid any conflict whatsoever. Yep, my plan is to take the bite for my dog if it is unavoidable. And yep, if the worst happens, I might let it go rather than make a federal case out of it, because, well, once the other guy is facing litigation, there is always the chance that it will get pretty ugly. And, lastly, who has time and energy for that. It take a lot out of you, and that time, energy, frustration can all be put to something better, and we can move on much quicker if we are not bogged down by an overshadowing court appearance.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Small claims court is an easy process and it's not time consuming or costly. Here it can be used for damages up to $5,000.


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