# OFA: Fair Prelim



## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

A puppy I'm considering has a sire with an OFA: Fair Prelim result. Would this exclude a puppy from this sire for you? Is that test result something to be concerned with?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Why is it only a prelim? Is the dog under 2?


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

the only report I see is from his 6 month test.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd ask if they did the actual rating at 2 then, and if they say they didn't, right or wrong my guess would be he failed and they didn't submit them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

When I say failed Jharp, what I mean is the vet taking them said they won't pass so they never were submitted to the ofa. Now if that's the case and their honest about that, maybe they can convince you as a buyer there's something so wonderful about this dog that makes it worth the risk to breed him? If they're presenting prelims on a 4 year old dog as something meaningful and have some big excuse for why they never even did the xrays at 2? Or worse, telling you why it wasn't necessary? I'd look at it as someones trying to con you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is sooooo much more than the immediate parent hip results to factor in to hip results of the progeny.

you need to look at the entire background --- sire and dam side --- deep into the background .

then you are responsible in part for the success of your own animal's results.

fair no problems -- if it had gone on to borderline at 2 plus years ? maybe , maybe not -- first of all do you know how many SV european dogs are bred with a rating of NZ or FN, which may very well BE borderline in our different OFA evaluation (which has a more narrow range of "normal") 

more important is the entirety of the pedigree

the wisdom and care in selecting animals for TEMPERAMENT and proper physical construction

you can't focus on one thing

if the male is very sound and correct and is and has a background with animals bred with respect of the standard then 
he may have something to contribute .


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

from the breeder

"Imports are often done off SV standards "peeked" at in US this why he was bred off prelims. If it's an issue I will refund your money now. Dysplasia is majority environmental and not genetic. If it were, having bred from 8 generations genetically would've bred it of dogs by now - activity levels and nutrition have been found to be the most related to dysplasia."

Does any of this quote raise a red flag. The breeder has very good recommendations and reviews and by their offer to refund my money makes me feel a little more confident.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

That's not what I would think of as a direct answer. Where was he imported from? As far as what Carmen is saying, if someone's bs'ing me on this, I'm going to have a hard time believing what they have to say about temperament, pedigree, etc...


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

apparently the breeder that the Sire came from did not do a 2 year OFA


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> That's not what I would think of as a direct answer. Where was he imported from? As far as what Carmen is saying, if someone's bs'ing me on this, I'm going to have a hard time believing what they have to say about temperament, pedigree, etc...


you need to look at the BIG picture 

I am directing this to the OP ---- 

PM sent -- without going into any details -- this is not one that I would support and that had nothing to do with the hips


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

So if the sire came from, I don't know, Arizona or something and you just got a convoluted response about imports when asking about ofa's on 4 year old dog? Another reason to ignore facebook pages? I know there's always a chance of getting the best dog in the world from almost anywhere. Pure bred dogs are the result of a lot of effort, someone not willing to follow that effort and telling you to take their word for it, is not the direction I'd go. You may get the perfect dog for you. It happens.


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

thanks for the feedback Steve. I appreciate your candor and effort. Feeling a little shaky on this breeder now.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

For me, if it doesn't exactly work out, the dog isn't exactly what I may have hoped for? The fact that it wasn't from a lack of trying on the breeders part, keeps me from being disappointed and still able to enjoy and live with a dog. If I felt like I got taken ? Its kind of a funny combination of purchasing a product, but with a different level of emotion then a washing machine.


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

I guess I'm going to go ahead with a pup (at my own peril). Maybe I'm too naive, but when I see all the glowing reviews from owners and fine looking adult dogs I'm willing to chance it. Perhaps there is some impurity in there but they aren't $5000 dogs so maybe you get what you pay for. I'm hopeful this works out. Wish me luck....feeling conflicted.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

You Can DEFINITELY get a puppy from parents with both OF A goods for under 2k. Both my last 2 dogs were priced under 2k, but had OF A good parents.

The two parents of my current dog had produced between them something like y puppies so far which had good ratings and I think 2 excellent if memory serves. My boy got an OF A prelim of "Good" at 18 no and my get who took the x rays said it would be good news before we sent them out.

My girl prelimed good and her final was Excellent.

Great dogs, great joints, nowhere near 5000k price tag. just saying


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I wish you luck. I hope you get a great puppy and completely enjoy the next 13 years or so.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sorry for all the type os... Both my younger dog's parents were OF A final Goods and had produced I think 5 or 6 puppies with final adult ratings of good as well as some excellents 

I *probably* won't x ray my dog again because he won't be bred and for my purposes I am satisfied with the prelim. Two vets, one OF A and one regular, said his x rays were good and from 18 mo. I doubt anything would change so i will save the money.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I never x ray'd one of mine because he was never going to be bred and his breeder wasn't breeding anymore, so it wasn't going to be any info she needed. Same as you, I saved my money.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yeah Steve I have only OFAed my dogs because they were service dog prospects so I need to know how physically sound they are. But for him, I did his prelim so late and it wasn't a close call....see no need to repeat


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Jharpphoto said:


> from the breeder
> 
> "Imports are often done off SV standards "peeked" at in US this why he was bred off prelims. *If it's an issue I will refund your money now. *Dysplasia is majority environmental and not genetic. If it were, having bred from 8 generations genetically would've bred it of dogs by now - activity levels and nutrition have been found to be the most related to dysplasia."
> 
> Does any of this quote raise a red flag. The breeder has very good recommendations and reviews and by their offer to refund my money makes me feel a little more confident.


I'd take the refund on this one. 

I'm not impressed with the reputation this kennel has and for someone to come out and say HD is NOT genetic... they probably shouldn't be breeding. (Yes nutrition and environmental factors will influence hip development but many dogs still develop HD with perfect nutrition and environmental controls. It is a disease with both genetic and environmental components)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jharpphoto said:


> from the breeder
> 
> *"Imports are often done off SV standards "peeked" at in US this why he was bred off prelims.* If it's an issue I will refund your money now. Dysplasia is majority environmental and not genetic. If it were, *having bred from 8 generations genetically would've bred it of dogs by now* - activity levels and nutrition have been found to be the most related to dysplasia."


What does that even mean? So the hips and elbows were sent to the SV? Or done overseas? And what is the rating?

In Germany, last I knew anyways, SV standards are the hips and elbows are required to be done. The dog has to have a minimum of an IPO1. I believe a confirmation rating as well? All that before they can even have the papers to breed the dog.

Dysplasia is a multi-faceted disease. However, to say it's not genetic is false. What does "having bred from 8 generations genetically would've bred it of dogs by now" mean? Does that mean they are seeing it in the dogs they have bred and are blaming environment?

Exactly how much are you paying for this puppy?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> What does that even mean? So the hips and elbows were sent to the SV? Or done overseas? And what is the rating?
> 
> In Germany, last I knew anyways, SV standards are the hips and elbows are required to be done. The dog has to have a minimum of an IPO1. I believe a confirmation rating as well? All that before they can even have the papers to breed the dog.
> 
> ...


It means "Ya got me, so now I'm mad and I don't want to play anymore"


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> It means "Ya got me, so now I'm mad and I don't want to play anymore"


I think the breeder might mean that the pedigree of the sire and dam has 8 generations back without dysplasia.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> What does that even mean? So the hips and elbows were sent to the SV? Or done overseas? And what is the rating?
> 
> In Germany, last I knew anyways, SV standards are the hips and elbows are required to be done. The dog has to have a minimum of an IPO1. I believe a confirmation rating as well? All that before they can even have the papers to breed the dog.
> 
> ...


Jax, I think it means that SV certifies dogs at 12 months and OFA looks at prelims at 12 months and the breeder doesn’t see the difference. Frankly, I agree in that I have imported a lot of adult dogs from Europe that were titled, and hip and elbows certified. When I look at the date of hip certification it’s 12,13,14 months and folks own these dogs, breed these dogs, and don’t say bleep about unethical breeding....but the same 12,13,14 prelim evaluated by OFA as good is often castigated on this forum by the experts. I for the love of me cannot figure out how Europe can perform adequate radiographs at this age, but the US can’t ?*♀. If folks feel 24 months is necessary to fairly assess hips, then they shouldn’t import, or get pups from dogs from Europe that are not meeting their 24 month old requirement to assess to good hips,IMO.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The only x rays done on this dog were at 6mos, any point about Europe is irrelevant. For a guy that posts on every forum the internet ever had, you sure seem to hate forums.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> The only x rays done on this dog were at 6mos, any point about Europe is irrelevant. For a guy that posts on every forum the internet ever had, you sure seem to hate forums.


Steve, I was responding to what the breeder meant when they commented about SV and Prelimms in America. Some people expressed confusion as to what the breeder meant....I gave my opinion. I’m sorry that irritated you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> Steve, I was responding to what the breeder meant when they commented about SV and Prelimms in America. Some people expressed confusion as to what the breeder meant....I gave my opinion. I’m sorry that irritated you.


It was a deflection from the breeder, whether it was valid or not, it wasn't relevant to this particular dog. She could have just as well responded with the playoff record of the Washington Generals. I'm not irritated.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Okay, Thanks


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jharpphoto said:


> I think the breeder might mean that the pedigree of the sire and dam has 8 generations back without dysplasia.


so ?

that is only the immediate dogs on the pedigree --- there would be thousands of others that are related -- offspring from other partners, offspring from the next generations

to give more meaning to the x ray results , examining what , not what the dog is (male and female) but what they are able to PRODUCE .

there were examples of NZ dogs which improved hips 
there were examples of dogs that were ofa excellent and could not produce a passable
hip to save their life
there were dogs were okay (SV) but had a deep and predictable track record for producing
schwere or severe hip dysplasia -- and yet there were hundreds of breedings and inbreeding 
on that dog
It was no secret . This is public record in the results pages of the SV's magazine 
I know the dog , I have the pages . 

hips are a complicated topic 

look at the BIG picture -- I would not be interested .


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## Solamar (Jan 25, 2017)

If the dog in question is SV registered, would the HD Breed Value be of any use in guessing offspring chances of hip dysplasia?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Jax, I think it means that SV certifies dogs at 12 months and OFA looks at prelims at 12 months and the breeder doesn’t see the difference. Frankly, I agree in that I have imported a lot of adult dogs from Europe that were titled, and hip and elbows certified. When I look at the date of hip certification it’s 12,13,14 months and folks own these dogs, breed these dogs, and don’t say bleep about unethical breeding....but the same 12,13,14 prelim evaluated by OFA as good is often castigated on this forum by the experts. I for the love of me cannot figure out how Europe can perform adequate radiographs at this age, but the US can’t ?*♀. If folks feel 24 months is necessary to fairly assess hips, then they shouldn’t import, or get pups from dogs from Europe that are not meeting their 24 month old requirement to assess to good hips,IMO.


dead right 

crazy making !


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@cliffson1 - Thanks! That makes more sense to me!


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