# Feeling torn about our trainer



## SewSleepy

We're in the second 6 week class with our trainer and I'm feeling torn about whether or not to continue with him after this class is over (2 or 3 more sessions). Our pup is now 6 months old and we've only been doing obedience. She walks well on a loose leash, sits when I stop, knows sit, down, stay (still a work in progress when it comes to length) and come (still working on it with distractions). We are now working on sit in motion, down in motion and stand. The trainer said that the next set of classes would be working on these off leash. 

The trainer trained dogs in the military and was a k9 officer. He's competed in OB, and also trains in personal protection. He's mentioned personal protection a couple of times but never said he thinks our pup would be a good candidate. My husband is interested in training her for personal protection, but after everything I've read I'm not sure about taking that plunge.

We're happy with the progress we've made, but I'm feeling apprehensive about the methods. We use a choke chain with lots of praise. I didn't see anything wrong with it until I started reading various message boards (here and others). At the same time I dont like treat based training either. I tried that before we started classes and she ended up not doing anything without a treat.

We intend for her to be just a pet. I've thought about agility, or something else just to have fun but it isn't something we're super serious about. I found a program for therapy dogs that I thought would be interesting to explore. 

I like him as a person, but with what I read on here I can't help feeling that some of his methods are out of date (choke, holding muzzle to discourage biting). I know that what he does works because I've seen his dogs, and I don't feel anything so far has been bad for ours. I do feel apprehensive going somewhere else because it I've mostly trained with the choke. I did some clicker/treat training early on so I sort of understand the concept, but haven't really put it into practice.

I've checked out (online) the local akc training club (h.o.t. Dog in Houston) but their classes are at pretty bad times for me. And since we've trained on a choke chain...I feel self conscious about it now. 

As far as temperament goes, she's been great. She loves people, but I have seen something when we're in training I haven't seen elsewhere. I don't know if it's submission or fear. She peed on our trainer once when he was trying to praise her.

I don't know...what would you guys do? 


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## mycobraracr

If you are getting desired results and the dog is not showing negetive affects then I don't see a problem with it. Every dog is different and training methods need to be adjusted as such. If your dog is responding well to this type of training then that's what you should stick with.


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## selzer

If the dog walks well on leash with a choke chain, why not try a martingale. 

If your dog is 6 months old now, and your are half-way through your second 6 week class, than your dog was 4 months or younger when you were doing the treat/praise thing. There is nothing wrong with teaching with treats and then phasing them out. You start by giving a treat every time the dog does the behavior you have told him to do, but then you start mixing it up. Give him just praise this time, start giving him treats for only the quickest response or the most precise response. In fact, using treats some of the time gets better results than treating every time. True with people too.

If the class is going quicker than you thing your pup is doing, ask to repeat the previous class. I do that all the time. If my dog isn't walking well enough with me at the end of basic, I repeat basic. I only train in classes, so at the end of six weeks of classes, they have had a whopping six hours of instruction. So, they may not be perfect at the end of it, especially if they are babies. I just go again, and try not to let the dog get bored. 

If you are getting positive results, and you do not feel that it is abusive, keep going. But you are your dog's main protector, and you have to live with the results of your training. If the trainer requires something of you that you do not like, then refuse it, just decline, and say we will sit this out.


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## Jag

Was this the only time your dog did a submissive pee? I agree with you... with that alone I'd pass on any thought of protection training. (Although I could be totally wrong about that) Actual in class time is very short. If your dog is learning and doesn't seem upset (other than that peeing thing) then I'd continue. I don't like choke chains, either... but it's a tool in the box.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm with the thought, if the dog is doing well, and isn't totally freaked out with this training, which sounds like koehler to me? I'd stick with it.

I tried the purely positive class when Masi was a very young puppy, honestly, it didn't work for a few reasons, she is not food motivated, it was just a lousy class to begin with, to much 'free for all' stuff, and frankly did nothing but some undesirable behaviors for Masi..Certainly not saying "ALL" PP classes are like this, I just got into one that wasn't for us.

Soo, I ended up having to rework,deprogram a few things, and went into a class with no treats, praise only, (occasional toy), prong collar class, and let me tell ya, Masi LOVED it, she was happy to go , she did really well, and while I may not be real thrilled with some things, SHE thrived on it..so that's the way I went.

If it works, and the dog isn't 'suffering' and doing well, stick with what works.


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## wildrivers

I am on my third trainer. Train for what you want from the dog. Not all trainers can train for everything a dog needs. Choke chains are bad for the throat on dogs. Pinch collar if you have to go that route. I use a holti or a gentle leader, great product. Any trainer these days that uses a choke collar is old school. Prong collars at least distribute the pain. Sometimes taking one private lesson is better then any 6 week group class.


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## EchoGSD

If you are having second thoughts already, after only 8-10 weeks with this trainer, and you are seeing something "off" or "different" about your dog's behavior in class, and add to that the peeing on the trainer...I'd say move on. You need to be 100% confident in your trainer and the methods you are using for them to be effective. I personally do not use a chain link training collar ("choke chain"), I used them for years and years but finally let myself learn some better methods and have seen a zillion times improvement in all three of my dogs. I use a martingale or buckle collar, learned how to teach and emphasize focus, and learned how to teach the dogs to think about how to move themselves properly instead of merely reacting to avoid a correction. Sooooo much more fun, better results at home, and BONUS! Higher scores in the AKC rings.


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## Elaine

SewSleepy said:


> We're happy with the progress we've made, but I'm feeling apprehensive about the methods. We use a choke chain with lots of praise. I didn't see anything wrong with it until I started reading various message boards (here and others). At the same time I dont like treat based training either. I tried that before we started classes and she ended up not doing anything without a treat.
> 
> I like him as a person, but with what I read on here I can't help feeling that some of his methods are out of date (choke, holding muzzle to discourage biting). I know that what he does works because I've seen his dogs, and I don't feel anything so far has been bad for ours. I do feel apprehensive going somewhere else because it I've mostly trained with the choke. I did some clicker/treat training early on so I sort of understand the concept, but haven't really put it into practice.
> 
> I've checked out (online) the local akc training club (h.o.t. Dog in Houston) but their classes are at pretty bad times for me. And since we've trained on a choke chain...I feel self conscious about it now.


Oh good grief! Training with a choke chain is just fine so long as you are using it correctly just like any other tool. There's no reason to feel self conscious about it so long as you are getting the results you want. If your dog is willing to work for praise, thank your lucky stars and be happy about it.

Keep in mind that most of what you read on here is from first time dog owners with very limited training knowledge so definitely don't base any of your decisions on what you read here.

Clicker or marker training is very helpful and can speed up training, but, again, it's only as good as the person doing it. There are many people that aren't able to make the transition from bribing the dog with food to do something, to getting the dog to work for a reward.


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## llombardo

I disagree with the choke chain, because later down the road will you ever be able to walk that dog without it? Treats and training is not bad as long as you phase the treats out. If treats are not an option, a toy works well too. My dog has loved all of her trainers..like they were family If my dog peed when a trainer approached her for anything, I would seriously take a look at why she peed. If this dog is afraid, then positive training is probably a better way to go...at least until the self confidence is built up. Good Luck


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## Elaine

llombardo said:


> I disagree with the choke chain, because later down the road will you ever be able to walk that dog without it?


Have you ever used a choke chain correctly? Have you ever been taught how to use one so you can say something like this? Or are you just repeating things you have heard?

What in the world does using a choke chain as a training tool have anything to do with not being able to walk your dog? Using it properly as a training tool, which it sounds like the OP is learning how to do, will actually teach the dog how to walk nicely.

I repeat: do not base any training decisions on what you learn on this forum.


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## llombardo

Elaine said:


> Have you ever used a choke chain correctly? Have you ever been taught how to use one so you can say something like this? Or are you just repeating things you have heard?
> 
> What in the world does using a choke chain as a training tool have anything to do with not being able to walk your dog? Using it properly as a training tool, which it sounds like the OP is learning how to do, will actually teach the dog how to walk nicely.
> 
> I repeat: do not base any training decisions on what you learn on this forum.


Not that I have to answer you, but yes I have used it, yes I have used it correctly and yes I have seen it fail. Do you think that because you say it, it is true? This is a forum and I can have an opinion. Just because you say one thing and I say another doesn't mean you are right or I'm wrong. *Make no mistake about it, I'm not a follower and I take everything I read and hear with a grain of salt.* I definitely don't agree that a dog that is 3-4 months should be on a choke collar, because lets face it the OP is learning and the trainer is not with them 24/7. So even after several weeks I question whether the OP is 100% sure of themselves, because they sure aren't sure about the trainer. And I do think that the OP can make an informed decision based on everyones' opinion, whether YOU think its right or wrong. To the OP, if you take that choke collar off the dog right now after 10 weeks of training, how does it walk? Is it a nice loose leash or still pulling? Does the dog know the difference when you use a different collar? Have you worked on a heel yet? How long does the trainer want you to use the choke collar as a "training" tool? Six months, a year, two years?


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## SewSleepy

Jag said:


> Was this the only time your dog did a submissive pee? I agree with you... with that alone I'd pass on any thought of protection training.


She's done the submissive pee a couple times in class. Always when the trainer is praising her. The first time she rolled onto her back and got his hand as he was rubbing her belly. Since then she has been in a sitting position and peed a little. She also pees a little when new people come over - she never seems scared more excited that there are new people to pay attention to her. She gets this "Oh my gosh, a person! A person! Who can pet me!! Please pet me! Please love me! Please, please please! Pay attention to ME! Love ME! Pet ME!" type of reaction to people.


llombardo said:


> To the OP, if you take that choke collar off the dog right now after 10 weeks of training, how does it walk? Is it a nice loose leash or still pulling? Does the dog know the difference when you use a different collar? Have you worked on a heel yet? How long does the trainer want you to use the choke collar as a "training" tool? Six months, a year, two years?


At this point, walking on my left and staying in line with me seems to be almost instinctual for her. There are times she's on the choke for a short training walk (practice all of our stuff while heeling) and all I have to do if she gets a little ahead is say "Hey, what do you think you're doing?" and she gets right back in line. Last night I took her out on a regular collar and leash - my intention was to let her just walk and sniff and take it all in to wear herself out. It took some coaxing to get her to wander, although she eventually did. I pulled her into a heel when we passed groups of kids and she pulled a little, but I'm sure the transition from "free" to "heel" was a little confusing because we don't do it that much. 
She does know the difference between the choke collar and regular collar. Typically, I walk her to an open space on the choke, in heel then change her collar to a regular collar and put her on a long line to run around and explore. She knows that when the regular collar goes on it's time for fun. She also seems to know that when we come home from a walk and I take the choke off of her it's time to do her own thing. At the same time, I always use our release word (free) when transitioning in order to make that connection.
We haven't talked about how long to use the choke collar as a training collar. I mentioned martingale's to him sometime around our 5th session and at the time he said not to use it as a training collar. He said it could be used for light corrections, but that our pup isn't there yet. 
He has suggested keeping her on the choke and leash in the house in order to correct some of her bad behavior. I've done it once, but really it's more of a pain. If her behaviour is atrocious I may get it out, but really just a quick tug on the regular collar usually works. She knows "off" for when she is checking out the kitchen counters or my bed, and really the worst of her behaviour is always related to how much excercise she's gotten that day. For exampe, she's stalking me right now and contemplating an attack on my feet.

I think we may just need a break from OB.


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## ken k

SewSleepy said:


> She peed on our trainer once when he was trying to praise her.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


I go to the same type of trainer, and I can tell you after 7 years, and seeing hundreds of dogs in class, the dogs know who the "top dog" is and thats the trainer, i wouldn't worry about it, nothing wrong with the "choke collar" if used correctly, heres a short story, (maybe) my GF has 3 Afghan hounds, 7 years, 2 years and 5 months, we all know how difficult it is to train an Afghan hounds, some say they are low on the intelligence list, I can say without a doubt that's not true, but that's another thread, the 5 month old Afghan puppy is in the off leash class, off leash, same style of training your doing, there are others in the class, that have been there longer, their dogs are not off leash, thats because they do not do their homework, you have to really "get into" the training, the 5 month old Afghan puppy, has rolled and peeded when she first see`s me, I`m the only one she does this too, and shes done that from the first time I meet her, your dog will grow out of it, stay with your trainer, you wont regret it


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## Kyleigh

While I disagree with the trainer saying that a martingale is only good for light corrections; I've NEVER used a choke so I have no opinion on that. 

I trained Kyleigh on a martingale and I had zero issues with it as a training tool. Now, she did get "light" corrections (according to what that trainer says), but heck, she was only a puppy ... IMO, what other type of correction is there? Especially when teaching to walk nicely on a loose leash. A quick pop of the leash, the leave it command, and we continued. (Yes, she did have meltdowns every now and then, but that's normal!) She's still on a martingale when we go for walks, and I only have to "correct" when a squirrel runs about 2 feet in front of her ... those blasted squirrels, you'd think they'd be afraid of dogs! Otherwise, our walks are nice and calm with no corrections needed. 

If you are happy with the results of your trainer, and your dog is happy and is learning and not showing fear (I don't see the peeing as fear since it's not only directed at the trainer, as you mentioned in a later post) then keep going to that trainer. 

Have you heard the expression "trust your gut?" I have a really good "gut instinct." I went to a trainer a LONG LONG time ago and I watched him pick a dog up, put it up against a wall and held it there. He told the owners that their dog needed to learn who was boss. My "gut" clenched big time. I walked out. (Today? I would have said something, back then, I didn't have the knowledge or experience to back up my "gut instinct.") 

Good luck!


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## Jo_in_TX

Contact me privately. Your "trainer" sounds very much like the trainer we used for a few weeks.

I regret it VERY MUCH. The _only time_ Teddy has ever submissive peed was in his presence. He was too harsh and did not take into account my dog's temperament. From the beginning I thought he was too harsh, but didn't follow my instincts.

Because of our experience with this trainer, I believe that Teddy is somewhat fearful/aggressive around men with a similar build and appearance.  It is my only real problem with her, but it could be a significant one. 

Please pay more attention to your instincts than any trainer's impressive credentials. 

By the way, I use a martingale collar, and don't have a problem with a choke collar used correctly. I don't believe training has to be 100% positive, but I don't believe that my dog should be fearful the entire time she is in the presence of a trainer, either.


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## Elaine

SewSleepy said:


> We haven't talked about how long to use the choke collar as a training collar. I mentioned martingale's to him sometime around our 5th session and at the time he said not to use it as a training collar. He said it could be used for light corrections, but that our pup isn't there yet.
> He has suggested keeping her on the choke and leash in the house in order to correct some of her bad behavior. I've done it once, but really it's more of a pain. If her behaviour is atrocious I may get it out, but really just a quick tug on the regular collar usually works. She knows "off" for when she is checking out the kitchen counters or my bed, and really the worst of her behaviour is always related to how much excercise she's gotten that day. For exampe, she's stalking me right now and contemplating an attack on my feet.
> 
> I think we may just need a break from OB.


Your trainer is right: a martingale is not a training collar. It's not really any different than a flat collar except that it's very hard for a dog to pull back out of it. Only people with very low expecations will use one for training, because it's not a training collar.

Leaving a collar and leash on her in the house for corrections, isn't a bad idea. If you are finding it hard to deal with this - I know I would - then use a short lead so it doesn't drag but it's easy for you to grab and correct.

Taking a break from obedience doesn't make your dog any better and early training is by far the easiest type of training to do for you and your dog. Not training just means your dog will have more bad behaviors to correct when you do get back to it, rather than having no or minimal bad behaviors to correct and being able to just progess if you keep going now.

I also have no issue with your dog being submissive to your trainer.


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## jae

If you don't like the trainer, finish out the session and find a new one. I never liked the woman at the last dog school - yap yap yap yap about everything, no actual interaction, finally told me my treats weren't good enough that's why my dog was whining and interested in other dogs. Okay lady. But no refunds, so I just bit the bullet and finished it out for the socialization if anything, but I barely listened to them. (Fun story, I saw one other trainer telling her dog she couldn't leave the crate when she was whining and pawing the door, so the dog peed in the crate. I was dying on the inside.)

You know your dog, and unless it is 1 on 1 time with a marked professional, I think it is wise to take everything with a grain of salt. Nothing is set in stone.

I recently just switched from the martingale to choke for the past couple weeks, and let me tell you, it makes a world of difference, at least when it doesn't slip down. I suggest the choke for training, martingale for walks, though I'm down to using the flat collar. I just use them for a tap to get his attention, for the most part that's all that is required for him, and I don't like to correct anymore. Use what works for your dog, and what he responds to. If he's not responding to a certain collar, don't set your dog up for failure and continue using it.


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## selzer

Elaine said:


> Your trainer is right: a martingale is not a training collar. It's not really any different than a flat collar except that it's very hard for a dog to pull back out of it. *Only people with very low expecations will use one for training, because it's not a training collar*.
> 
> Leaving a collar and leash on her in the house for corrections, isn't a bad idea. If you are finding it hard to deal with this - I know I would - then use a short lead so it doesn't drag but it's easy for you to grab and correct.
> 
> Taking a break from obedience doesn't make your dog any better and early training is by far the easiest type of training to do for you and your dog. Not training just means your dog will have more bad behaviors to correct when you do get back to it, rather than having no or minimal bad behaviors to correct and being able to just progess if you keep going now.
> 
> I also have no issue with your dog being submissive to your trainer.


I am not in agreement with this. I have trained two dogs through their CDs with martingales, and got a ton of other titles using just martingales as the collar of choice. But I will agree that they are not training collars, and are not really for giving corrections. I correct with my voice, not with the leash and collar, so it works for me during training. 

I would leave a martingale with a leash attached in the house, but NOT a choke chain. Some people call a martingale a humane choke. I think this is a ridiculous name, because a martingale will only tighten so far and will not choke the dog. This is important because a choke chain will continue to tighten and if your pup gets stuck on something and panics the choke will tighten and completely prevent the dog from getting any air, and your dog can die. Training collars are for training, when the dog is not being supervised, a flat collar or martingale or no collar at all should be on the dog. 

I did leave a choke on a dog while he was on my porch and I was inside working on homework. After some time, I heard something like a woman's screaming. I thought, OH NO, Frodo is EATING Someone!!! The porch had a babygate across the steps but he could have jumped off that deck without trying bad leg and all. He just respected gates and I didn't think much about it. 

Anyway, I rushed out on the porch to see him stuck fast to the flooring. He had fallen asleep and the ring and end of the choker went through the porch and turned so that when he woke and tried to sit up, he couldn't move his head. At that point he struggled and twisted around and around, and panicked, and finally when he couldn't breathe, he let out a strangled cry. 

I could not get him undone by myself, it took me and both my landlord and his wife to get him free. It was a scary moment. Since then, I am careful about collars.


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## Gretchen

I understand how you feel. Are there any other trainers around, even at Petsmart? Before stopping or changing, see if you can sit in on a class or two of some other trainers. This is what we did and am glad we did. We found out we don't like clicker training, one woman who was highly recommended was technically very good, but she put me to sleep, boring - if I can't get through class, then how is my dog going to do? The trainer we use now, has a fast paced high energy class using a lot of agility equipment which our dog loves. The down side is he uses the prong which was good at first, but now we don't use it, so she just wears it for class. So you have to make a mental balance sheet of the plus and minuses of the trainers.

Our first trainer also wanted our dog to do protection work. Sometimes I think because it was his only other class and a way to earn extra money. Before we even got our puppy (this trainer was our breeder, too) I had mentioned we just wanted a companion, family dog. What do you think your trainer's motivation is to have your dog protection trained?

My personal opinion is that a prong is more effective than a choke if you have to use something, and with our dog, she was not treat motivated when younger. Ask around for trainer references, your vet, the vet techs, your neighbors, hopefully with a comparison of another trainer, you'll be able to make a better decision to stay or change.


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## selzer

Kind of young for a prong, in my opinion, if the dog is walking well on a choke, I don't really see the need of going with a prong.


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## middleofnowhere

What would I do? Not what the OP would do most likely. 
1. I'd have turned my back and left when told to use a choke. This is old school compulsion training. Like a reformed smoker, I'm opposed to my old habbit.
2. I'd work hard to get a better understanding of motivational training. (I'm still working on timing rewards/praise & keeping my words straight with my actions.)
3. I'd look for a good motivational class - that involved no free play for the dogs.
4. I would not consider personal protection training for my dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom

This is not a trainer that *I* would use, way too old school for me, but that's neither here nor there.

I think if you have any concerns about this trainer's methods, regardless of how much training experience he has, then you should listen to that voice. You are the best advocate for YOUR dog, and you get to decide what's best for her. Your reservations are apparent - if it were me, I'd be acting on those reservations. :shrug:


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## tropicalsun

I'm in Houston and we have a great trainer. If you're interested send me a pm and I will
give you his contact info.


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