# Can grain free food cause diarrhea?



## katdog5911

I switched Stella to grain free food about 2 weeks ago. She got major diarrhea. I thought I may have switched her too fast. She was on rice/chicken/pumpkin for a bit and finally got back to normal. So I started adding the kibble and transitioning her back to the grain free. Well....back to diarrhea. So its the chicken/rice/pumpkin diet again. I think I may have read somewhere that grain free food has more protein due to higher meat content. Could Stella just not be able to handle that much protein? 
The reason for the grain free is because she was constantly scratching herself and the vet is thinking she might have food allergies. 
So now I don't know quite what to do....live with scratching or diarrhea????
Any suggestions?


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## msvette2u

What brand?
Grain free is kind of deceptive. It doesn't mean "higher meat content", it merely means there's other starches than grains in it. For instance, they switch out rice for potatoes, or sweet potatoes. If not that, then peas. Sometimes they add peas to make a higher protein content without adding more meat.

You can have a ton of protein that comes from plant sources without having meat at all, btw.

Grain free isn't the be-all and end-all of "good" dog foods 

PS. Food allergies are usually allergies to proteins. Get Natural Balance in a unique type such as bison or fish, or venison, and keep the dog on that for 6-8 weeks to see if the scratching gets better.


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## Momto2GSDs

katdog5911 said:


> I switched Stella to grain free food about 2 weeks ago. She got major diarrhea. I thought I may have switched her too fast. She was on rice/chicken/pumpkin for a bit and finally got back to normal. So I started adding the kibble and transitioning her back to the grain free. Well....back to diarrhea. So its the chicken/rice/pumpkin diet again. I think I may have read somewhere that grain free food has more protein due to higher meat content. Could Stella just not be able to handle that much protein?
> The reason for the grain free is because she was constantly scratching herself and the vet is thinking she might have food allergies.
> So now I don't know quite what to do....live with scratching or diarrhea????
> Any suggestions?


Yes, what brand of kibble is it and what did you feed before this one?
Any chance you could do a raw food like Bravo??? Less ingredients in it to rule things out.


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## ChancetheGSD

I'd use California Natural before I used Natural Balance. Natural Balance is ridiculously expensive and has next to no meat in it. California Natural is at least a little more affordable.

What were you feeding before and what are you attempting to feed now?


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## msvette2u

NB is the only true allergy diet...with unique proteins and only one protein source.


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## CarrieJ

The types of protein can make a difference as well. Switching from a "white meat protein" to a "red meat protein" can affect dogs.
Alice doesn't do as well on chicken as she does on lamb/beef. Zoey, is a garbage gut, will eat anything with little or no effect.
Switching too fast is never a good thing, I've taken two weeks or more to switch a food. (hence I don't do it very often and really think about it before I do)
Sometimes the fish based protein foods help with the skin problems and sometimes yogurt does too. (yogurt is a maintainence issue though, once you start you keep doing it as it takes awhile to start noticing effects, like good ears, skin etc.)

*there was one time where Zoey stole the loaf of bread from Alice that Alice stole off the counter......they are both on grain free and .....well, bread is one big grain. 
WEASEL!
Zoey ended up on boiled chicken and rice with a little pumpkin for a few days  Let me tell you how fun it was to wake up to a dog that "exploded" in the bathroom.....well at least it wasn't on the carpet.


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## MustLoveGSDs

ChancetheGSD said:


> I'd use California Natural before I used Natural Balance. Natural Balance is ridiculously expensive and has next to no meat in it. California Natural is at least a little more affordable.
> 
> What were you feeding before and what are you attempting to feed now?



Couldn't pay me to feed California Naturals now that Proctor & Gamble owns Natura.

Natural Balance isn't that expensive for the benefits of their LID diets. NB is what I feed all my foster dogs and I have seen awesome results with it. 

Nature's Variety Instinct is grain-free and their formulas have good meat content. 
Instinct | Nature's Variety

I pay $55+ tax for a 29 lb bag of Acana Wild Prarie(grain-free). My GSD only eats 2 cups a day and my Dobe is on 3, husky is on 1 and a half cups a day. The benefits for quality food outweighs the cost to me.


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## Sir Bear

When we got Bear the breeder was feeding him Innova Evo...he's 14 weeks now and FINALLY recovering from constant diarrhea after we switched to Royal Canin. The ingredients aren't as good...but the poor boy had diarrhea his entire life up until the switch. So glad we found out what was wrong!


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## MustLoveGSDs

Sir Bear said:


> When we got Bear the breeder was feeding him Innova Evo...he's 14 weeks now and FINALLY recovering from constant diarrhea after we switched to Royal Canin. The ingredients aren't as good...but the poor boy had diarrhea his entire life up until the switch. So glad we found out what was wrong!



Which Royal Canin formula, and how many cups a day of EVO were you feeding him?


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## Sir Bear

The Evo was the chicken and turkey small bites 1.75 cups twice per day, I give him the same amount in Royal Canin GSD puppy now with extra kibble as treats across the day. His vet recommended the change to help. He definitely liked the evo more, he would always finish it and doesn't really wolf down the RC, especially in the morning he tends to leave a bit in the bowl. I would like to switch him back eventually (I've been told the calcium levels are a bit too much for a pup anyway) but it did help the diarrhea.


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## katdog5911

I have Stella on Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken Meal. I believe there is tapioca, pumpkin and cinnamon in it. I have been trying to keep any treats she gets to chopped up boiled chicken and for a high value treat-chicken liver. Stella's sister's vet recommended a fish based dog food..... Today her poop was normal but I fasted her for 12 hours and added rice and pumpkin to her kibble. Should I just keep her on this kibble and add rice? Or switch her to something else?????


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## msvette2u

Chicken is one of the worst allergens because they've used it so extensively over the years, in dog food.
I'd try a non-chicken diet. Our vet warned us all fowl could be an issue, we have our allergic Boston Terrier on Kirkland's "Nature's Domain", but I would not recommend that for puppies. A dog over a year or so of age (or even 18mos.) would do okay on it though, our Costco now has Turkey/sweet potato in a red bag, the Fish one is in a blue bag.

As I mentioned before, Natural Balance has a very nice selection of non-chicken/unique protein (and only one source which makes ruling in or out an allergy easy) such as venison, bison, and fish. Remember if you do make a switch to not give chicken anything, including treats. NB has a treat line that has the same ingredients as their foods, so venison treats, bison, etc.


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## msvette2u

Sir Bear said:


> When we got Bear the breeder was feeding him Innova Evo...he's 14 weeks now and FINALLY recovering from constant diarrhea after we switched to Royal Canin. The ingredients aren't as good...but the poor boy had diarrhea his entire life up until the switch. So glad we found out what was wrong!


RC ingredients, if I'm not mistaken, include corn? 
I have a thing about paying insane amounts of money for food with corn in it. 
Of all the foods out there, there's quite a few that don't use corn, without the problems I've heard of with Evo, either.


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## RocketDog

You might try Great Life too--they have single protein sources and I got some samples from my local store and Rocket FREAKED OUT over them!

The buffalo especially looks good.

Great Life Dog Food


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## Momto2GSDs

katdog5911 said:


> I have Stella on Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken Meal. I believe there is tapioca, pumpkin and cinnamon in it. I have been trying to keep any treats she gets to chopped up boiled chicken and for a high value treat-chicken liver. Stella's sister's vet recommended a fish based dog food..... Today her poop was normal but I fasted her for 12 hours and added rice and pumpkin to her kibble. Should I just keep her on this kibble and add rice? Or switch her to something else?????


Hi Katdog!
White rice has no nutritional value to a dog, but if you have to feed it for a little while, you have to. If you are replacing some of her kibble with rice, then she really isn't getting her daily requirements nutritionally. I'm surprised she has loose stools b/c there is so much clay in the NV, so maybe, it's just the food. The pumpkin is really good to. Can you afford to feed Bravo Raw (mid priced of the good raw's) for a few weeks? Or The Honest Kitchen Embark (a dehydrated food).
Also, is this fresh chicken liver you purchased and cooked or is it a commercial treat?
You may want to pick up some "NOW" "Slippery Elm" powder from your local health food store to sooth her stomach. Do you add enzymes? That's another thing you might think about as she might be having a little trouble digesting. If you think that could also be a problem, you could also pick up some "Solaray Pancreatin 1300" when you are at the health food store and start with 1/2 capsule.
Did you do the switch slowly?
Sorry, lots of questions! :crazy:


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## VonKromeHaus

Acana has new single protein sourced foods. I love Acana and Orijen and the quality that they are!!!


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## Momto2GSDs

VonKromeHaus said:


> Acana has new single protein sourced foods. I love Acana and Orijen and the quality that they are!!!


I agree! They are one of only a very few that are HUMAN GRADE!
But, they need to be introduced very slowly since the ingredients are high quality. If a dog has been on another food all of its life, its system doesn't know how to deal with it! That's when you get diarrhea and people stop using it without giving the dogs system a chance to detox and adjust!


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## CarrieJ

Evo is very high protein, 44% I think. Which would be ok if my dog had a "job" but she doesn't. I did have Alice on Evo when she was around a year old and stool wise she did ok on it, but she had such a high metabolism she never put on weight on it. She was skinny.

Nutura, now owned by P&G is: Evo, Innova, Cal. Nat. and a few others. I used to like Innova, a very good food and Alice did very well on Innova Red Meat.
P&G has said that they will continue to sell the Evo to small mom and pop places but Innova and Cal. Nat. will be mass distributed to large box stores. (like Petco & Petsmart). They have stated that "nothing will change" I am skeptical. It's impossible to mass produce like that without cutting some corners. I seriously doubt a large company like P&G will forgo profits for quality.
I've noticed that the kibble of Innova has changed slightly. It used to be flat, now is slightly puffed more like a Purina One kibble. 
I've noticed that my dog's coats weren't quite as nice. The ingredients list hasn't changed; but, I think that where they are getting their ingredients has. Meaning, that they don't have to change the ingredients list if they get cheaper stuff within the company.
Evo has still maintained their own rendering and manufacturing plants so nothing is sourced out for Evo. I can't say that for Cal. Nat or Innova.
It's still within the USA but possibly at other places. Something has changed with Innova, I just can't say what it is.


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## Momto2GSDs

CarrieJ said:


> Nutura, now owned by P&G is: Evo, Innova, Cal. Nat. and a few others. I used to like Innova, a very good food and Alice did very well on Innova Red Meat. P&G has said that they will continue to sell the Evo to small mom and pop places but Innova and Cal. Nat. will be mass distributed to large box stores. (like Petco & Petsmart). They have stated that "nothing will change" I am skeptical. It's impossible to mass produce like that without cutting some corners. I seriously doubt a large company like P&G will forgo profits for quality.


I would be cautious too. Their Pre-mix used to be sourced from Europe but who knows now! A lot of the companies get these things from CHINA!:shocked:


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## MustLoveGSDs

Sir Bear said:


> The Evo was the chicken and turkey small bites 1.75 cups twice per day, I give him the same amount in Royal Canin GSD puppy now with extra kibble as treats across the day. His vet recommended the change to help. He definitely liked the evo more, he would always finish it and doesn't really wolf down the RC, especially in the morning he tends to leave a bit in the bowl. I would like to switch him back eventually (I've been told the calcium levels are a bit too much for a pup anyway) but it did help the diarrhea.



RC breed specific formulas are a huge marketing gimmick. They also have TWO senior formulas. Really??

There really is no good reason for a GSD to be on large breed food, they are not a large breed dog. I also don't believe in puppy food. At the time they are weaned a good grain-free ALS food is what I would prefer, it is more like real life. In the wild there are no specific formulas for dogs. 


Have you checked out Acana's grain free ALS formulas? Great company with quality products.
http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/products.php


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## Sir Bear

The real kick in the gut was I found out (after I had bought the RC at petco and almost finished transitioning him) that the vet SELLS RC in her office. It make me feel like she prescribed a needless change in my dogs diet so she could make more money. Needless to say I felt like a gullible a**hole. It DID fix the diarrhea though so I don't know what to think. I plan on switching him again to a better food I just wanted to wait a bit so it wasn't constant switching. Now to figure out which one...the options are mind numbing. Thank you for the recommendation I'll check it out!


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## msvette2u

There's no reason to feel you have to go "top of the line" dog food$ 

We use Diamond Naturals or Kirkland Signature foods, our own personal dogs and all the foster dogs (unless allergic as I mentioned) and they are all going strong, nobody's overweight (intake vs. calories expended is the key there), shiny coats, etc.


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## katdog5911

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hi Katdog!
> White rice has no nutritional value to a dog, but if you have to feed it for a little while, you have to. If you are replacing some of her kibble with rice, then she really isn't getting her daily requirements nutritionally. I'm surprised she has loose stools b/c there is so much clay in the NV, so maybe, it's just the food. The pumpkin is really good to. Can you afford to feed Bravo Raw (mid priced of the good raw's) for a few weeks? Or The Honest Kitchen Embark (a dehydrated food).
> Also, is this fresh chicken liver you purchased and cooked or is it a commercial treat?
> You may want to pick up some "NOW" "Slippery Elm" powder from your local health food store to sooth her stomach. Do you add enzymes? That's another thing you might think about as she might be having a little trouble digesting. If you think that could also be a problem, you could also pick up some "Solaray Pancreatin 1300" when you are at the health food store and start with 1/2 capsule.
> Did you do the switch slowly?
> Sorry, lots of questions! :crazy:


Have not seen Bravo Raw or The Honest Kitchen Embark. 
Fresh chicken liver I purchased and cooked. (Boy did her recall improve!)
A neighbor gave me a couple of packets of "FortiFlora" that she says helps clear up diarrhea. Haven't tried it yet. 
I may have switched too quickly originally. I don't know. 
From my understanding Nature's Variety is supposedly formulated so you can switch from one "flavor" to another. Maybe I will try that??? Or I guess I can try Natural Balance. I have seen that in the store. 
This morning Stella had a normal poop. Now she has eaten twice...rice/kibble/pumpkin. We'll see what happens.


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## VonKromeHaus

I always switch a dog food cold turkey, no one here has ever had tummy troubles! 

As far as "top of the line" foods go, IMHO, you get what you pay for. Acana and Orijen are great quality and with them both, you get what you pay for. My dogs coats were nice on lesser quality foods BUT never this nice! They have never looked better and IMHO you just can't beat the quality that they offer! 

That said, I pay 70$ a bag for 30 lbs. of dog food. However, that lasts me 6 weeks there abouts. I feed a working line GSD and an APBT out of that. It costs me around $10 a week to feed 2 dogs Acana. The old dog gets a different kind of Acana and it costs me $70 a bag for 30 lbs. It lasts me close to 12 weeks feeding it to just him. About $5 a week. 

So total per week, I pay around $15 to feed my dogs high quality good food. You can't beat that when you really break it down. 

I went from feeding lesser foods like Kirkland and their Grain free brand but in the end, I was feeding more to maintain their weights, picking up more poop etc. I was feeding Judge anywhere between 6-8 cups a day on lesser foods just to maintain weight. On the Acana, he eats 3 cups of food/day and maintains beautifully. 

I will cut out other non-essential things if necessary to be able to feed my dog the best food that I can.


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## msvette2u

> Or I guess I can try Natural Balance. I have seen that in the store.
> This morning Stella had a normal poop. Now she has eaten twice...rice/kibble/pumpkin. We'll see what happens.


I think this is a good way to switch - mixing the kibble slowly into the rice/pumpkin blend :thumbup:

We've had great luck with NB, and so has our foster home, she raves about how glossy her dog's coats are, even her husband noticed and that's saying a lot


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## msvette2u

Sir Bear said:


> The real kick in the gut was I found out (after I had bought the RC at petco and almost finished transitioning him) that the vet SELLS RC in her office. It make me feel like she prescribed a needless change in my dogs diet so she could make more money. Needless to say I felt like a gullible a**hole. It DID fix the diarrhea though so I don't know what to think. I plan on switching him again to a better food I just wanted to wait a bit so it wasn't constant switching. Now to figure out which one...the options are mind numbing. Thank you for the recommendation I'll check it out!


Our vets have never prescribed SD or RC for our dogs. In the back, they use Kirkland Signature dry _and_ canned, but up front sell SD, I got a kick out of that 

It's ironic that RC claims soy is "ultra digestible", where do they dream up such hooey!? 

German Shepherd Food | Royal Canin

I used to feed soy-based foods to shelter dogs when I worked down there, (you take what's donated, basically!) and saw the worst poops_ ever_ as a result of those diets! Soy in any food causes dogs to get gas badly, it seems (or that's been my experience) so I can't imagine how "digestible" it is


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## cta

msvette2u said:


> I think this is a good way to switch - mixing the kibble slowly into the rice/pumpkin blend :thumbup:
> 
> We've had great luck with NB, and so has our foster home, she raves about how glossy her dog's coats are, even her husband noticed and that's saying a lot


i finally settled on Natural Balance for Chobahn as well. When he was first put on a LID, the vet prescribed the Adult PV from Royal Canin. Well, at $70 for a 16.8 lb bag...that was breaking the budget a little bit, so after somebody on the forum suggested Natural Balance I tried it out. He has been on it for about 4 months I would guess and he does very well! He does poop more on it than he did on the RC, but his coat is so soft and shiny. They make several different varieties, but I get the venison and sweet potato for him.


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## Momto2GSDs

VonKromeHaus said:


> I will cut out other non-essential things if necessary to be able to feed my dog the best food that I can.


Good for YOU! I agree!
Here is some info readers may not be aware of:
*Be aware that Diamond sources some of their vitamin & minerals from *China*. Companies that source from China/Asia may say they check and screen all the imported ingredients *for known toxins,* the problem would be the *unknown toxins.*
*Kirkland products are manufactured by Diamond so one would have to believe that some of their vitamin and minerals come from China.
*Diamond’s Original, Premium, Maintenance, Performance, Hi Energy, and Puppy all have BY-PRODUCTS in them. 

*Kirkland: as of 3/5/12 There has been some suspicion of animals becoming VERY sick (one claimed death) from their canned food. The suspect food is Kirkland canned Lamb & Rice Dog Food - expiration 2013. Just “suspect” for now. Costco Canned Dog Food Warning! | LinkedIn 
Hope this helps! There REALLY is a difference in foods! "Natural", "Holistic", "Premium", are all just buzz words that pet food companies are allowed to use as there is no regulation for wording on packages.


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## VonKromeHaus

I recently bathed a dog that was adopted from a local rescue who severely mislead the people about the dog, how long they had it, health issues etc.. Anyway, they old them to feed Kirkland, as that is what the dog has been eating at her previous home. The dog has horrible food allergies. Thank goodness that the people noticed and took her to their vet. She is now on a high quality kibble and is doing extremely well. A sad situation. 

I understand feeding what you can afford as something is better than nothing. However, feeding high quality foods is much better than feeding foods that have had recalls. 

I try and not feed any food that has recalls either in canned or dry formulas.


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## msvette2u

Back when the recalls went out, over the melamine, I watched very closely. 
The only Kirkland product to have one was 1 batch of canned. None of the dry. None of the dry Diamond Natural products were involved. 

Plain Diamond is _not_ good, I'd never recommend anyone feed that. Go with Diamond NATURALS or whatever, but the most important thing is read labels! 
We give our adopters a list of "acceptable" foods and tell them to choose products with no corn, soy, wheat, or by-products. 

Many breeders and dog owners on this message board feed Kirkland or Diamond Naturals or 4Health, which are all very similar in ingredients. 
You might want to check with them as well about their experiences 
:thumbup:




Momto2GSDs said:


> Good for YOU! I agree!
> Here is some info readers may not be aware of:
> *Be aware that Diamond sources some of their vitamin & minerals from *China*. Companies that source from China/Asia may say they check and screen all the imported ingredients *for known toxins,* the problem would be the *unknown toxins.*
> *Kirkland products are manufactured by Diamond so one would have to believe that some of their vitamin and minerals come from China.
> *Diamond’s Original, Premium, Maintenance, Performance, Hi Energy, and Puppy all have BY-PRODUCTS in them.
> 
> *Kirkland: as of 3/5/12 There has been some suspicion of animals becoming VERY sick (one claimed death) from their canned food. The suspect food is Kirkland canned Lamb & Rice Dog Food - expiration 2013. Just “suspect” for now. Costco Canned Dog Food Warning! | LinkedIn
> Hope this helps! There REALLY is a difference in foods! "Natural", "Holistic", "Premium", are all just buzz words that pet food companies are allowed to use as there is no regulation for wording on packages.


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## VonKromeHaus

There are better foods out there that have no recalls. It isn't that expensive when you break it down to feed Acana or Orijen or some other high quality food but you have to want to better your dogs health!


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## ChancetheGSD

SMH. It amazes me that people wont feed Natura products because they are now owned by Proctor & Gamble (Though still watched over by the previous owner) but they'll feed Diamond products like it's nothing...Why? Which FTR, Diamond produces not only the Diamond and Diamond Naturals lines but also Taste of the Wild, Natural Balance, Canidae, Nutura, 4Health, Chicken Soup, Kirkland Signature, ect just to name a few.  Neither exactly have a clean record. Diamond also uses fish in their products that are preserved with ethoxyquin but because they themselves didn't preserve it, it doesn't have to go on the label.

I'd also continue to feed the Royal Canin if it's working, at least until the pups tummy is well settled before trying something else. Dehydration from diarrhea will kill the dog a lot faster than a bag or two of RC will.


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## RocketDog

Plus, there's the added wrinkle of some dogs just don't dig Orijen. My pup eats it, but not very willingly. And I'm not really digging the way his poop looks, frankly. I'm going to try a couple different foods.


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## VonKromeHaus

RocketDog said:


> Plus, there's the added wrinkle of some dogs just don't dig Orijen. My pup eats it, but not very willingly. And I'm not really digging the way his poop looks, frankly. I'm going to try a couple different foods.


There are other foods that are just as good as Acana and Orijen. I would stay away from Natura products and anything manufactured by Diamond. Just my experience and opinion.


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## msvette2u

RocketDog said:


> Plus, there's the added wrinkle of some dogs just don't dig Orijen. My pup eats it, but not very willingly. And I'm not really digging the way his poop looks, frankly. I'm going to try a couple different foods.



Not every food works for every dog.

Innova EVO (supposedly one of the "top of the line" foods) is famous making dogs sick.
Chance, if you're so concerned about kibble and recalls, go to raw or homecooked, simple enough 

None of the dogs here (our own, or fosters) got sick during the melamine tragedies, nor do they become ill on what we feed them now.

BTW, a few of our foster dogs are eating Merrick and we've had great success with that too.


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## ChancetheGSD

msvette2u said:


> Chance, if you're so concerned about kibble and recalls, go to raw or homecooked, simple enough


Besides the fact I do feed raw/home cooked, that was never my question or point. Someone posted about how they wouldn't feed California Natural or anything made by Natura even if someone paid them because it's owned by Proctor & Gamble but went on to say they feed Natural Balance which is a Diamond food. Nobody has ever answered what makes Diamond better than Proctor & Gamble, both have a bad reputation for poor quality ingredients and quality control.


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## katdog5911

The more I read the more confused I get. Soooooo....Natural Balance is NOT good? I just went out and bought the salmon and sweet potato kibble. I have been feeding Stella the Nature's Variety Chicken Meal and trying to limit her treats to chicken....home cooked boiled breasts and liver. She had a lot of itching going on and I am trying a limited grain free diet. I decided to switch to a fish grain free kibble as I read that chicken is a big allergy trigger to a lot of dogs. My plan was to slowly incorporate the salmon....I think I am just going to feed her what the dogs I had growing up used to eat and buy ALPO


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## CarrieJ

I would stick with the fish as Stella gets itchy. Many dogs do well on the fish diets.
I'll try and find the link later, but there is the Dogfood Rating website. It will line up the different brands and list their ingredients.
Just a hint, I look at the first four or five ingredients that gives me a clue. 
(Want to get scared? Read Purina Beneful's ingredients )

I don't want to see corn, by product, or byproduct meal in the first four or five ingredients.
Innova is still a good food. My boss feeds six of his dogs on it, three get a mix of Primal Raw. The three that are on only Innova still have good coats and stools. That's primarily what you are looking for.
Evo (same company) is very high protein. Common for dogs to not do so well on it. 
I'd still try yogurt, I swear by it. Plain live cultured yogurt, just a tablespoon per feeding.

You have to find out what's best for your dog and what gets the best results. In the long run, everyone is going to have an opinion or hopefully relate their experiences with you.


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## msvette2u

> You have to find out what's best for your dog and what gets the best results.


Exactly. We've been using NB for years without issues. Our foster home changed over to it (from Iams) and her dogs love it and look great.
Not every food is good for every dog, as others have pointed out.

I mean - say you feel all pressured so go buy the most expensive food you can buy - and your dog gets dandruff and diarrhea. 
Are you going to sit there and keep your dog on it because others made you feel bad that you weren't buying $$$ food for your dog?
No, that makes no sense!
_Use what works. _ Not every dog is the same, so it's senseless to use a product that's not working for _your_ dog. 
The main rule of thumb, try to avoid corn, soy, wheat and by-products. When you shop for a food, use that rule of thumb and you ought to do okay.


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## Momto2GSDs

msvette2u said:


> Many breeders and dog owners on this message board feed Kirkland or Diamond Naturals or 4Health, which are all very similar in ingredients.
> You might want to check with them as well about their experiences
> :thumbup:


:crazy: Pleezzze....don't kill the messenger! I'm just providing information.


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## katdog5911

Ugh...we are back to diarrhea. Every 2 hours all night, all day. She is acting fine and HUNGRY! I called the vet and they got a stool sample. Will get results on Monday. Back to boiled chicken/rice/pumpkin. Vet suggested Royal Canin but I have been reading some not so great things about it on older threads. Soooo.....what the heck do I feed Stella when her tummy settles down? Go back to the Nature's Variety but transition s-l-o-w-l-y, try the fish/sweet potato by Natural Balance, or the Royal Canin???? I hate the feeling that Stella is an experiment. 
Good thing is I weighed her at the vet and she has gained weight this month in spite of the tummy issues.


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## Momto2GSDs

katdog5911 said:


> Ugh...we are back to diarrhea. Every 2 hours all night, all day. She is acting fine and HUNGRY! I called the vet and they got a stool sample. Will get results on Monday. Back to boiled chicken/rice/pumpkin. Vet suggested Royal Canin but I have been reading some not so great things about it on older threads. Soooo.....what the heck do I feed Stella when her tummy settles down? Go back to the Nature's Variety but transition s-l-o-w-l-y, try the fish/sweet potato by Natural Balance, or the Royal Canin???? I hate the feeling that Stella is an experiment.
> Good thing is I weighed her at the vet and she has gained weight this month in spite of the tummy issues.


HUMAN GRADE, HUMAN PROCESSED The Honest Kitchen (dehydrated food) - any variety. A 10# box makes 40#'s. Purchased at doggie boutiques. You won't even have to introduce it slowly!


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## katdog5911

Never heard of Honest Kitchen.... guessing Petco is not considered a doggie boutique:crazy:
I will look it up on line and see if I can find it. 
Another factor will be cost. But I will check it out. Thanks.


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## msvette2u

Stay away from Royal Canin. 
The others you mentioned are good.

BTW has she been tested for EPI and SIBO??

http://www.epi4dogs.com/


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## katdog5911

What are EPI and SIBO? This just started 2 weeks ago and I brought a stool sample into vet today. It coincided with me changing her food so that was my first thought as to what happened. I switched to grain free food because she has such a problem with scratching and itching. But somewhere on this forum I also read not to give puppies grain free....??? She is 9 1/2 months now so I guess she is still a puppy. Part of me wants to just keep her on rice/pumpkin/chicken but I know she needs more.....


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## msvette2u

Well, there's information at the link (sorry to state the obvious). GSDs are very prone to a few diseases and that's two of them.


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## ChancetheGSD

I don't have the time to go back and check but didn't you say the Royal Canin was working? STICK WITH THAT UNTIL THE DOG HAS A SETTLED STOMACH. Switching around 100 times is going to be what throws it off. Once the dog is settled and you give it a week or two of good stool, THEN consider changing but you're only doing damage by switching around and having your dog have constant diarrhea because you are reading way too much into a label on the bag. If it's working, USE IT FOR NOW. It wont kill your dog to eat while things get settled. On the other hand, *DIARRHEA* can *KILL YOUR DOG* pretty freaking fast!

I would recommend checking for SIBO/EPI though, even a trial on the medication to see if it helps. But if your dog DOES have those conditions, you're going to have to stop thinking so hard on ingredients and go with what works. Purina Pro Plan is very well known for helping SIBO/EPI dogs maintain and stay healthy, it's really just going to depend on the dog.


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## msvette2u

Maybe we need to define diarrhea here...is the dog literally having watery, frequent stools? 
Is the dog pooping uncontrollably? Like, crate, in the house, and cannot hold it?
Or are the poops coming when normal poops should, but are just soft or runny??

Chance, the dog was eating Nature's Variety I think. If I remember, it was itchy and having soft stools on that food.


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## katdog5911

To clarify- Stella was on Nutra Lamb and Rice. She has been itchy and scratchy since we have had her at 8 weeks. We have had her skin tested and biopsied. She also had an allergy test-no environmental, and food came back inconclusive. The vet said to try a limited ingredient food....which is why I tried to switch her to Nature's Variety. She developed diarrhea....watery every hour during the night....started to feed rice/chicken/pumpkin. Diarrhea cleared up and I started adding in kibble. Also made chicken liver to use as high value treat. This past week she started with diarrhea again...Last night it was every 2 hours... Called vet who took stool sample and put her on flagyl . also back on bland diet. it was the vet who suggested rc.


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## msvette2u

Well if you like grain free, I do not thing RC is going to cover that. I'd avoid ALL chicken from here on out, go to the unique source of protein and a SINGLE source, not multiple sources like some foods out there. That is why Natural Balance is known (so far as I know) as the only true allergy diet. They use ONE source of meat - I'd try the Bison or Venison for now (for your situation).

But - has coccidia, giardia and other parasites been ruled out?
If so, ask about testing for SIBO and/or EPI. Read the link above for what to ask for and look for.
Flagyl is okay but Tylan/tylosin would be superior to that.


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## katdog5911

I don't personally have to have her on a grain free...I just thought that I could at least see if not having grain would show an improvement in her itchiness. As to the chicken....I know this is something a lot of dogs are allergic to, but wouldn't her itchiness get worse while she was on the bland rice and chicken diet? Her mom was allergic to beef I believe so would that rule out bison?


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## msvette2u

Not necessarily (either one). 
You'll just have to experiment and see what works.


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## katdog5911

Still have to figure out what Stella is so itchy about but the diarrhea turns out to be giardia.....so she is on flagyl as is my other dog who started getting diarrhea a day ago....


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## casualnova

I have an 11 month female GS who for several months had on and off diarrhea even with the most recommended (and expensive) feeds. Boiled rice helped somewhat and mashed potatoes somewhat more but it's a pain, if you know what I mean. The solution came out almost by serendipity when one day, being out of prepared meal because of a change in residence, I had to give her instead a large slice of bakery bread, the one we mostly use in Europe, mixed with adult can pate. She did not only have no diarrhea or soft stools (always on and off as I said before) but her stools became immediately normal and have remained so for the last 4 months. Whenever I remove bread from her diet, she goes back to lose stools or diarrhea regardless of what I feed her. Reintroducing bread as a component of her meals solves the problem immediately, even if I feed her the same stuff that was giving her diarrhea or soft stools without bread. I have used several kinds of bread (chapata, rustic, round, baguette, etc) with the same positive results although I have never used sliced (sandwich) bread or buns, so I cannot tell whether they would be as effective.


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## NancyJ

Ok, so the dog is doing well on homemade chicken, rice and pumpkin? So she would not be allergic to either chicken or rice (a grain) if that was the case.


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## argo daisynina dvora

Honest kitchen is the best for my dogs. I sub in blue wilderness due to cost. . Twix is on 100% zeal but he only is five ibs. The 10 lb box will last about five months. Ando and akeemi at half blue and half keen, keen is cheaper than zeal, with raw 3 times a week. If you can afford it honest kitchen is a wonderful food.


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## HGSTRAINER

*GREETING and a comment*

I want to say hello to all and just comment on this thread as I've been reading posts and feel I must contribute to this one.
I'm a long time GS trainer, mostly, I deal with problem dogs. Car attacks, messy dogs, training - behavior, walking, hyperness, agressivness, pillow killers etc. ; after a car accident I also get msgs from animals so I've turned to a holistic approach to illness before I try any pills or surgery which is the modern way of dealing with problems (not a fave of your animal) 
to the lady with the itchy dog, I'd like to recommend a holistic vet, not sure where you live, but I promise you this problem can be trated much easier and more comfortable for your dog by a holistic vet. As for dog food, personally I strongly believe that grain free food will keep your dog living a long healthy strong vet free life, so if that is what you want stick it out. Sometime the transition isn't easy. Either the dog will have diarrhea or it will simply not want to eat it. But to explain it better is for example with you - if I give you pizza which has a fab taste but is not good for you at all or I juice a bunch of veggies for you which go straight into your blood stream and tell your brain you've eaten so you need not go and eat the whole fridge being a nutrient hungry zombie - then you too will want more pizza, not veggie juice. BUT if you stick to the veggie juice 3 weeks and your body during that time detoxifies of all the crap you've put in there from pizza, meat and processed food that does nothing more than pollute your system and keep you hungry, you will then open your eyes and see better, feel stronger, have more energy and you will realize what you've been doing to yourself all those years and how much better you feel on a pure diet. Of course, I'm not saying you should only eat vegetables for the rest of your life, but a fantastic slew of healthy energizing vegan diets that are available in books like Skinny Bitch in the Kitchen can convince you that you don't have to pollute your body with meat, which is acidic and makes you prone to illness and that you don't need processed foods, which kill your taste buds and make it difficult for you to taste anything natural and good. SAME WITH ANIMALS
Processed, chemical filled, grain full dog food containing no more than 20% meat is NOT good for them. Yes, food that is not grain free contains only 20% meat, the rest are chemicals guaranteed a decent paycheck for your vet by the time your dog hits 7
If you stick to grain free and you make the effort to walk with your dog daily instead of just opening the door to your yard your animal can live a loooooog very healthy life. 
I would mainly recommend Wilderness, but I find that most grain free foods are good. I would not chose something with pumpkin in it to make the innitial transition. You should have gone with something less veggie to begin with. Abbady is also good food, altough I would be careful with raw food if you're not 100% sure how to administer and store it. 
I hope this helps at all... if anyone ever needs some advice re: food or behavior feel free to pm me. 
By the way you all have such beautiful pictures of your babies. My baby passed away and it's still been very difficult for me to get another....she meant too much to me. ( a black g.s. malinois )
Kay


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## HGSTRAINER

jocoyn said:


> Ok, so the dog is doing well on homemade chicken, rice and pumpkin? So she would not be allergic to either chicken or rice (a grain) if that was the case.


 
Be very careful with chicken these days (read up on GMO ) and rice especially ( they recently found traces of arsenic in many brands )
Get Wilderness wet or dry food. I recommend wet food only for all animals, but I understand many feel dry is more lucrative so at least go with grain free dry if you must feed the dog dry food. But definitely be careful with chicken and rice.

PS: if by any chance your pooch sheds - sushi meat once or twice a week can get rid of all shedding, plus the omega 3 is fabulous for their bones and skin.


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## trudy

katdog, I have fed Acana mostly for years, I just change flavors. we have been feeding Acana Ranchland and are switching to Acana Pacifica, which is fish based. , so we know we never feed grains and don'tdo chicken...This brand of food is made well and with fresh ingredients that are people grade, that means stuff you could eat. My guys eat from 3-4.5 cups a day depending on dog/age/activity with the biggest eater my active growing 10 month old. This is for all ages so no puppy food. All look great, shiny coats, good muscling, energetic, lean dogs. I highly reccommend this, and if while transitioning to any food, throw in a spoonful of pure pumpkin, they won't get loose stools...


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## Anthony8858

Even though the thread is 6 months old, I'll make my contribution....

I took the advice of another member, and switched to Fromm Gold Adult. I couldn't be happier.
From the first bag, I saw an immediate change to her stool (a good indicator).

The food actually smells decent too. She has NO GAS, firm stools, she's loaded with energy, and her coat looks great.
It's reasonably priced. A 33 lb bag is around 40.00 shipped

Fromm also makes completely grain free, but IMO I don't see a problem with quality grains in her diet.


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