# At the end of my rope....



## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

We got him over a year ago from a nice little lady here in SA.(MISTAKE_RUDE FREAKING LADY) We met his dad, and his dad was really nice, well trained, however his mom was another story. It made me hesitant to buy him knowing his mom wasn't nice. I got him anyways. He is an amazing dog. Potty trained in less than a week at 2 1/2 months old. Was great in stores, was nice to people. Then at around 4 months he started changing almost. He would growl in petsmart at people and dogs. Then people would come over and we would have to put him up because of the way he was acting(growling but hiding). He didn't try to bite anyone, he just acts nervous and will not go near them. My husbands work friend however went over to him kind of quick and aggressive like and he lunged at his throat. Thats when I was like, he can go outside when people are over.(we tried the whole slowly meeting people, didn't work) I have 2 kids and another GSD(whom i adopted from New York) and 2 cats. He is great around them all. Well what made me rethink the way he was acting is fine is when my niece was over and she came in our room late at night with no lights and he nipped at her face. That was the last straw. It scared me to death. He only left a small scratch, but I can't have a dog that will do that when I have children at my house on a day by day basis. I think he was just guarding his territory, but at this point. I just don't know anymore, I know he is a result of backyard breeding. She's only 6. I tend to think of the what ifs.I know with rehabilitation and counseling he would be an amazing dog. He sits, lays down, stays. He was spoiled rotten as a puppy just because he was so amazing. He plays fetch with anything and everything. People have told me to put him into training but at this point we cannot afford it. Im still hesitant on even rehoming him Because we do love him, I just can't take the risk. The other thing that scared me is when my kids dressed up in their ninja suits he went psycho on them, barking and growling. They had to run in their room real quick!! Please help and no bashing please.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

There is no reason to bash you, you know that there is a problem and you are doing the best that you can to try to fix it. The money situation is something that a lot of us have, never anything extra. I will let someone who has had experience with the problem that you are describing give you some suggestions. I hope that you can find a solution that will work for you, and he is a very handsome boy. Good luck.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

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Wow, absolutley stunning dog! I do feel for ya. It sounds like not if just when. You got to find some help. He sounds like a great dog with one major issue to address. I hope it worka out for you and him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the change in temperament sounds to be in line with vaccinations? any thoughts or information on this


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

When we choose to add a pet to our family then we should also choose to prioritize and spend what needs to be spent to the best of our abilities.

I would start calling around and getting any help you can from professionals. They are NOT all over the top expensive but you will have to pay for their help. The longer you wait, the bigger the problem.

For the time being I'd just use the crate, doors, gates to manage him.

At the same time you need to WAY up his exercise if you are having to pen him away.

Though he is no longer a puppy, you may want to back up and work on all these behaviors ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html tons of info online that is FREE but it will require your time to both learn and work with your dog.

Good luck.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Both of these instances to me seem as though he is acting out his innate protect and defend characteristics. 

1- middle of the night, someone comes in the room and he nips. Your niece probably woke him from a dead sleep and he went to reaction mode. Maybe have him sleep in a crate if relatives are in town. I doubt this would've happened if it was one of your own children coming into your room at night. 

2- Ninja suits. Odds are, and I am speculating, the kids were hyped up and the dogs couldn't make out facial features and the sudden movements, combined with startling, aggressive child-imagination-ninja-glory-sounds was read by your dog as acts of aggression toward him. Again, reactive. I think 90% of ANY breed at that age would be reactive to kids in costumes being boisterous, it is just "scary and alarming" because it is a shepherd. 

These are really simple peripheral and atmospheric changes that you can adjust. 

Training is a must. If you can't afford to go to classes, do it at home. Focus on basic obedience work, take walks, play fetch, work on recall. Tire that pup out! 


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

carmspack said:


> the change in temperament sounds to be in line with vaccinations? any thoughts or information on this


That's an interesting idea. I heard that vaccination reactions don't happen immediately, too. My fear-aggressive reactive dog was that way from day 1 at 8 weeks old. I always blamed it on the breeder, though, and me for not checking out the mother. Loved her father! 

For Vangie, with kids in the house, I wouldn't take a chance either.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I don't know what to say, except I'm sorry for your situation. 
To become aggressive at 4 months seems very young, if you said 10-11 months typical adolescent stage I'd say maybe there is hope he would overcome this.
Could he be re-homed to a family without children? He's OK around cats and your other dog so that is a plus. Sounds very protective.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

Thank you all for the responses.- My other GSD, I adopted from New York. Owner surrender.When I got there I knew why. She was covered in her own pee and feces. Cramped up in kennel all day long. 6 months old and not potty trained. Very skittish. Would cower down at the site of hand( still does it from time to time)She was very hesitant to go with us. But by the time we got her home, she was in love.(3 hour drive). She is not aggressive, she is gonna have health problems my vet has already said(shes 3 and 65 lbs with bad hips already and she won't put on weight no matter how hard we try). SHe is amazing though. She herds my kids... and strangers too, Will nip there ankles to get them where she wants them. She doesn't do it quite as much anymore as Ive had to get onto her about it. What Im getting at is I was SO surprised when I got Ruger that he started acting like that. She came from filth and we got him when he was just a pup and he was fine, great weight and a super happy puppy. I would think it would have been the opposite ya know. So I started doing research and asked my vet and she told me that he is the result of bad breeding. She was the first one to tell me that I need to think about rehoming him.(She use to show GSD's) Especially since I don't have the time or funds to correct this right now. I work with him, as much as I can. Being a mother and a school teacher and my husband works out of town, I can't say its every day and I know thats what he needs. Im scared the next "accident" will be really bad and I don't want to be responsible for it. I have called around and the cheapest training I can get for aggression is a lady that charges $300 a visit. I am trying to find him a home where someone can work with him but I don't think its gonna happen. I try to take him into public settings .. He has to wear a halter and a muzzle type leader around his mouth. I tell people he's not friendly. 
. My brother just put his PIT down for almost the same reasons. I just don't think I can do that.
I think he is capable of being a great dog. I have emailed different GSD rescues to see what they may say... with no replies. Still waiting though.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Austin GSD Rescue is pretty busy right now. May take them a few days to get in touch with you. 

I think it can still be manageable. There are options other than an aggressive-specific trainer. If you can make it up to Austin on the weekends, look up the Schrodi Fund Scholarship. They help specifically with these kinda of behavioral issues. We were a recipient of the scholarship in 2011, and a close friend of mine (non GSDs) was awarded an even bigger scholarship earlier this year. It's a revolving time line, always open for applications. 


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

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I like the kennel or gating him off away idea to start. It keeps non household members safe. It also has to be a family thing too so that he doesn't inadvertantly get let loose. I've seen situations where dogs had to be put up for such reasons. This way, when time and funds allow, you can get the training needed. But judging from your posts, it seems your almost to the point of re-homing already, which is sad but you have to do what you have to in order to keep people safe. 

I wish I had a silverbullet to offer,but I personally have no experience with such dogs. I can only offer what I would do if I were in your shoes. I would try myself to get help from a trainer. I know some main stream pet stores offer training classes for $100 for a 6 week course. Maybe you could contact one of them or even the AKC to guide you to the right people. It's worth a try before taking that next step.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

So sorry you have 2 problematic dogs.....the female sounds like she has great temperament though, and bottom line, that is genetic...

The male.....

*His mother was "not nice"* - Right off the bat - the biggest warning sign for temperament that there could be. Growling at people and hiding behind you....*His mother was "not nice"

*Unfortunately - your male has poor genetic temperament!!!You can spend time and money to counter condition this dog....you may be able to manage him, control him and advance his acceptance of people somewhat. But the bottom line is that you saw a female with bad temperament and purchased a puppy from that female and he has bad genetic temperament. You have children, you have a lifestyle that will continually stress this dog no matter how much you train, condition and manage him. He may well be retrainable and manageable in a less busy and stressful environment. But he is high risk in your and will continue to be high risk no matter how much time and effort you invest. 

You see the difference in genetics - your poor little female was treated deplorably - but adores people...your male was raised with love and attention and is fearful and aggressive.

This is a really really horrible position to be in....and I am sorry but I really do not believe that your male should stay in your home...

Lee


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Time and money are two big factors here. If you keep this male you are going to need the help of a well regarded trainer that knows what they are doing and even then you may end up with gate, crate, and rotate the rest of his life. With children around a "sometimes" aggressive dog is very dangerous. Children will be children - they will make noise, run around, and dress crazily. All these things to a fearful aggressive dog are problems. The sometimes thing is the worst - you never know when they are going to strike out. I believe the poor genetics bred into this pup foreshadow his future. You may be better off rehoming him with someone that has the time to put into the training required and has no other dogs or young children. Only you can make this decision. The biggest part is what are you willing to do to keep this dog and will keeping him be the best for him. Quality of life for your family and this dog are both equally important in the decision and I wish you luck. It's not an easy choice to make.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the change in temperament sounds to be in line with vaccinations? any thoughts or information on this



Really strange carmen I noticed a change for a few days after I gave my dog annual shots and lymes shot? she was aggressive abnormally for 2 or 3 days after? It was so strange. Then it just went away.


I wonder if this has been reported before?


Also to the op any chance on re homing the dog to a good owner maybe out in the country with no kids? that is experienced?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What Wolfstraum said!!!!! The first thing that came to my mind was his Mom was not nice, and I also think his issues are rooted in genetics/rearing of the mother.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

I don't really know about the vaccine thing. 
I know when we got him, he had giardia. A really bad case of it. Thats the first words I had with the lady I got him from. I was livid. Almost gave him back. But I was already attached after 2 days!
So I was talking with my husband today about all of this and he reminded me of a few incidents with him. Like one time I was sitting on the porch and he came up and Ruger seen him, but he still lunged for him and barked and growled like crazy. Another time, in the house he walked down the hall and was almost to the bedroom and he again lunged and started barking and growling. He seen him. Had to of known who he was by smell at least! At least thats what I think but maybe I'm wrong. When my cousins where over(little girls 9 & 10) they were getting up to get breakfast as he was going out and he had seen them before but he chased the older one back to the couch barking at her. 
There is just so much that SHOWS he is aggressive and not good with kids but then there are times like tonight(which are all the time) when he is laying next to my kids just licking their faces and loving them. Like the person said though. I brought a pet into my house I need to prioritize ... AND my kids are my top priority and it scares me to think one of these times it won't just be a warning bark and growl from his fear, because my kids are being rowdy and playing in costumes. That he will actually bite them or worse. I have 2 boys ages 5 and 8 who are into ninjas and star wars. Light sabers and nun-chucks galore in this house.These are NOT really simple peripheral and atmospheric changes that you can adjust. My kids are crazy 21/7... So should I just keep him in a box or outside that much too! 
Money we don't have. We are moving out of a rental because the owner is selling. And well just other expenses that need to be taken care of before I can pay for a trainer or training classes. I do as much as I can with him. Like I said we play all the time and he knows basic commands. My female will chase after the deer outside, even when I tell her no. Ruger, will come and sit right by me and watch her with I swear a smirk on his face cause he knows shes gonna be in trouble when she gets back. 
They stay in their kennels when I leave the house and when people come over. I usually let klina stay out though because she's not "rude". 
Its like my husband says, I keep making excuses to keep him and not find him someone that can possibly help him. Because he is my baby, but I also have my babies and the fear they are gonna be his chew toy when he has a reaction.
Husband agrees with Wolfstraum. Now I just need to find someone to take him. If anyone knows anyone. Im listening. I think.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Sounds like you have a crazy life right now. Not a good place for an aggressive dog
I know it sounds easier to say" they were little nips", he was being protective, etc but you have to really face reality and realize that this dog is a time bomb waiting to explode. I am sorry but any dog that chases the kids back into their rooms, when its THEIR home, or chases the girls back to the couch for safety is not a dog to be in ahome with children around. No kid should have to live their life worried that the dog living in their home might and will bite them. Little nips right now can and will turn into bad bad bites, and unfortunately most kids are face level with dogs. (My husbands nephew was bitten in the face by his friends family dog and lost his nose and lips, lots of surgeries and pain later, he is mostly normal looking but lives in fear of all dogs)
This dog is probably redeemable with the proper training and a child free home, but not in your situation. You love your dog, he is your baby, but in reality, your children are your "babies" and when your dog attacks them and does damage, which is probably just around the corner, will you be able to deal with the responsibility of knowing you kept the dog knowing what was coming? 
Find a situation for the dog BEFORE his "nips" become outright attacks and then the only choice will be euthanasia.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Vangie said:


> The other thing that scared me is when my kids dressed up in their ninja suits he went psycho on them, barking and growling. They had to run in their room real quick!! Please help and no bashing please.


I don't know what to say except this one thing.. Kids in costume will set even the most stable dog off. I had a daughter come out into the kitchen one time with a green face peel and hot rollers in her hair and scared my dog half to death. He jumped up low scary growling at her.. I told her to speak in her normal voice and call him to her. He approached slowly and as soon as he got a sniff and realized it was her, he was all wagging and happy self.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry you are having this problem. 

I know you do not like the breeder, but maybe you should give him back to her. The thing is, there really isn't a lot of people in the market for adolescent dogs that are very unstable around children in particular. 

I agree that it is probably genetic, and probably can be managed, by owners who can put the dog up whenever they have anyone over. But with children it is hard because that means never allowing your children to have friends over, unless you put the dog up. 

And then, as you say, the dog barks at anything out of the ordinary with the kids, and kids are often out of the ordinary. A dog with an ok temperament should be able to manage at least the children he lives with. 

A couple of things give me a little hope for the dog, and that is that it nipped the girl that came into your room in the middle of the night? That the dog did not go full attack mode on the girl is good. And it may have been a startle. Still nipping a small child is never a good thing.

The other thing is that he chased the kids to the couch barking. That may not be aggression. If the dog wanted to hurt any of these children he could have done serious damage. Which means the dog is exhibiting some restraint. I mean he isn't going for the throat like he did with the friend that acted agressively toward him. 

Maybe what you need is to have the dog totally evaluated and then go from there. I agree that he probably would be better off with some childless couple somewhere out in farm-country, but there are only so many childless couples that don't like anyone coming over, but are very well-versed in managing GSDs out there.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> there are only so many childless couples that don't like anyone coming over, but are very well-versed in managing GSDs out there.


And we already _have_ a genetically fearful/fear-aggressive dog. :crazy:

OP: I'm very sorry you're dealing with this. A lot of your dog's behaviors sound very similar to my Pongu's (even down to smirking when other dogs get in trouble!). Pongu is also genetically bonked-up in the head, and has been since he was four months old, which is the age he was when I got him. While my dog has gotten much _much_ better, he is still unstable and always will be. You can't train out what's in the blood.

At this point, after several years of intensive daily rehab, Pongu is an "almost normal" dog. He lives a full life, he has a reasonably successful sport career, he doesn't pose a danger to anyone he encounters on a normal day. But getting there took a lot of money and a lot of time, and we are that very rare household that has no kids and not many guests and a crazy person (me!) willing to become a total dog obsessive.

I won't pretend to tell you what to do. I do think selzer's suggestions are pretty solid, though. If giving this dog back to the breeder is even remotely a possibility, that might be a good place to start.

My experience has been that such dogs _can_ be rehabbed, up to a certain point... but it's not quick, it's not easy, they never really get to the point where they're completely safe around kids (at least Pongu never did and I don't expect he ever will), and there are very few people who have both the skills and the willingness to take them on.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

I think what Im having a hard time facing is, is that I KNOW no one is going to take him. 

and Im not gonna just walk into any old shelter and say here, take this dog, knowing what they are gonna do.

I've already asked a few people, but they all have friends/family with kids ect. 

I JUST DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> A couple of things give me a little hope for the dog, and that is that it nipped the girl that came into your room in the middle of the night? That the dog did not go full attack mode on the girl is good. And it may have been a startle. Still nipping a small child is never a good thing.


Are you freaking kidding me? I missed this in the original post. A unfamiliar kid came in the room in the middle of the night and the dog gets blamed for doing what comes naturally? It sounds like this family need to be a lot more dog aware. First off if sleep overs are happening. Dog is crated or the bedroom door is shut and everyone is told they must knock!!! 



> I agree that he probably would be better off with some childless couple somewhere out in farm-country, but there are only so many childless couples that don't like anyone coming over, but are very well-versed in managing GSDs out there.


 or we already have 4 dogs... (not completely childless but they are grown and out of the house).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> Are you freaking kidding me? I missed this in the original post. A unfamiliar kid came in the room in the middle of the night and the dog gets blamed for doing what comes naturally? It sounds like this family need to be a lot more dog aware. First off if sleep overs are happening. Dog is crated or the bedroom door is shut and everyone is told they must knock!!!
> 
> or we already have 4 dogs... (not completely childless but they are grown and out of the house).


No, I am not _freaking kidding you. _Having a dog and kids means you are going to have outsiders in your home. This was a six-year-old niece. I doubt they brought the child in at midnight and sent it into a dark room where the dog was sleeping. 

My guess is that the dog and child were around together and then the kid went to sleep, dog goes to sleep, kid gets up in the night and comes into the room, and the dog reacted. Badly. The only consolation is that it wasn't terribly. 

If you know you have a dog that isn't ok with kids, you do have to prevent that from ever happening, by putting the dog where the kids cannot have access, and that really isn't what having a family dog is supposed to be like. 

I know it is hard to think about it, but sometimes euthanasia isn't the worst thing you can do to a dog. Maybe you can spend the next several years, managing this dog and maturity and VERY careful exposure will improve the situation somewhat, but if it doesn't it will not be any easier to put down a dog who is five or six than it is to put down a 1 year old dog. The longer you have them the stronger the attachment and memories and so forth. No matter when you do it, there will be pain and guilt and all the terrible emotions. 

It is better than taking him to a shelter, or giving him to someone who is not fully aware of the situation and competent to manage it. This is why giving him back to even a less then stellar breeder is ok -- that individual will have to evaluate the dog and determine if management/training makes sense, or if she must euthanize the dog. The breeder may feel some responsibility toward the dog and try to give him a chance, and will likely be equipped to keep the dog in such a manner that it will be unlikely the dog ever bite anyone. Chances are she will try to use the dog for breeding. 

*For that matter, is this dog neutered?*


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Totally beside the point, but he looks like more of a malinois mix than a GSD...

... And if he IS a mal, then that could explain a lot of the behavior at this age given what his surroundings are. Way too much overstimulation 


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

yes he is neutered, Has been for awhile. 

And yes Selzer you are right. He played with them all day long and everything was fine. Played fetch with him and chase. Not one bad thing happened! 

Then that night, she came into the room, where my boys where asleep on my floor on a pallet, she wanted to sleep with them and she said she went over to him to pet him and he was awake and she said she went to pet him and he nipped at her. Then we put him in his crate. She didn't just barge into the room all crazy like. 

Its been a few weeks since all of this and nothing else has happened. So i keep telling myself it will all be okay. but this is what I do when he does these things. I hold off and then the anger and fear goes away and I just see him as a big baby.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Vangie said:


> I think what Im having a hard time facing is, is that I KNOW no one is going to take him.


You don't know that, you're just very upset and depressed about the whole situation. There's plenty of people who would want a dog like this. He will need work, and he can't go to a home with children, but that's not impossible criteria to meet. It takes a while to find the right home, and probably you'll have to look outside your own circle of friends, but it can be done.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

His mom was a long hair(only seen pics), Dad was a short hair sable.


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## Las Presitas (May 10, 2013)

Vangie if you need help rehoming try contacting San Antonio Pet's Alive. They have a PASS program where they try to help owners rehome pets before they are surrendered. U are right about his odds here in SA. Owner surrenders only get 24hr hold. Strays get 3 days. I am not trying to make you feel bad, just telling you the facts. My last foster was from the euthanasia list. I got her through SAPA. Contact them @ PASS and see if they can help u rehome.
If not better bet would be Austin and a no kill shelter. Sorry for your situation. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How old is the dog? 

I really do not see what happened with the niece as that terrible on the dog's part. He was sleeping with his boys, and someone came into them, and he nipped -- I take that to mean there was no bruise, no blood? 

I think on the leerburg site there is a bite indicator that describes different levels of biting and whether or not such a dog can be/should be worked with. It might be worth looking into. 

I would not put the dog down on the advice of anyone on this site. I would find the money to get a behaviorist and have them evaluate the dog and see if they think some behavior modification with regards to the dog can help this dog be more confident and better managed.

It may be that this dog really needs guidance and leadership and maturity. I don't know. It sounds like you let the dog sleep with the kids. Maybe the dog does not see the kids as being above him, and he is using nips and barking to tell them where they should go and what they should or shouldn't do. I would not ignore this, I think you need to work with a real live person who can see the dog.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> You don't know that, you're just very upset and depressed about the whole situation. There's plenty of people who would want a dog like this. He will need work, and he can't go to a home with children, but that's not impossible criteria to meet. It takes a while to find the right home, and probably you'll have to look outside your own circle of friends, but it can be done.


I agree with Blanketback. Based on what I have read on this thread, I believe this dog would do just fine in a different home.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

selzer said:


> How old is the dog?
> 
> I really do not see what happened with the niece as that terrible on the dog's part. He was sleeping with his boys, and someone came into them, and he nipped -- I take that to mean there was no bruise, no blood?
> 
> ...



Hes 1 1/2. There was no blood, he just scrapped the skin on her nose.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> No, I am not _freaking kidding you. _Having a dog and kids means you are going to have outsiders in your home. This was a six-year-old niece. I doubt they brought the child in at midnight and sent it into a dark room where the dog was sleeping.
> 
> My guess is that the dog and child were around together and then the kid went to sleep, dog goes to sleep, kid gets up in the night and comes into the room, and the dog reacted. Badly. The only consolation is that it wasn't terribly.


I don't know any German Shepherd that is going to let someone come into their room in the middle of the night an approach the family. Even if they have been playing there all day. Now if the kid was sleeping in that room with the dog that is one thing but we are talking about a strange kid creeping in to a place where the dog didn't expect. Not one of my German Shepherds would have let that happen without at least growling. I was girl scout leader and swim team mom and soccer mom etc... Every single kid that spent the night in my house was taught dog etiquette when they came in. Yes I had dogs that slept with the kids but those dogs were super kid friendly and rock solid. Not all dogs are going to automagically be good with strange kids. Some are just too protective of their family for that.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I don't know any German Shepherd that is going to let someone come into their room in the middle of the night an approach the family. Even if they have been playing there all day. Now if the kid was sleeping in that room with the dog that is one thing but we are talking about a strange kid creeping in to a place where the dog didn't expect. Not one of my German Shepherds would have let that happen without at least growling. I was girl scout leader and swim team mom and soccer mom etc... Every single kid that spent the night in my house was taught dog etiquette when they came in. Yes I had dogs that slept with the kids but those dogs were super kid friendly and rock solid. Not all dogs are going to automagically be good with strange kids. Some are just too protective of their family for that.



My female didn't react to this like he did and she was at the door. He was across the room.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The female is a different dog. 

The female chases deer, this dog doesn't. They both have plusses and minuses. You will need to be more careful with him at least while he is as young as he is. If the house is crazy -- kids sleeping in your room, put the dog in a crate, and avoid situations. 

It still may be the right thing to rehome or euth. I don't know. But while you are working on your options, use a crate whenever things are not as they should be.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Vangie said:


> My female didn't react to this like he did and she was at the door. He was across the room.


You said: 



> he said she went over to him to pet him and he was awake and she said she went to pet him and he nipped at her.


So she attempted to pet him. Did she pet your female? Was the female even awake? 

Would you approach a GSD that wasn't yours in the dark and attempt to pet him? I sure as **** wouldn't! 

Think about it for a second. German Shepherd. They protect. That is what they were bred for. If your female didn't alert she was asleep. She knew the kid better than your male or she flat doesn't have the protective instincts that most GSD's have. 

I suggest you go to your local library and get some book on dog behavior. Read, research and decide if a German Shepherd is really what you want. If not rehome him and get a kid friendly type of dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If he really wanted to bite or maul that kid, he could have easily done it. The kid is not in his family pack, she enters room at night and goes to pet him....he does have a clue to what she is up to because he is not FAMILAR with her behaviors like he is family members.....just not a good situation. Look, there are many GS who would not have reacted in this situation, there are many who would.....I think you have to manage the household better when new people are there with your DOGS in mind. Cause one dog does or does not do something has nothing to do with another....one of my kids liked vanilla the other chocolate .....you have to think/plan ahead with dogs of this breed and new people.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with cliff.

IF you want to keep this dog, it's an easy fix, MANAGEMENT..You seem to know some of his triggers/incidents where he may react. Prevent them by removing him from the situations.

Your kids have friends over, put him in a crate/kennel. You have guests over, same thing.

It doesn't take a trainer to teach you about managing the dog (not being sarcastic here).

Keep him out of situations that may set him off. He is young, you 'may' be able to place him in a home that could work with issues, I don't think any rescue would take him. He's a liability waiting to happen and if he really 'bites' someone you could lose the shirt off your back.

If someone entered my bedroom in the middle of the nite, unless she knew that person really well, mine would be on them in a second, maybe not 'bite'/nip them, couldn't say , never been in the situation, I can guarantee tho she'd let it be known there was something out of place.

So easy fix, manage him or find someone who can handle his behaviors.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

OP I am not trying to bash just trying in my own bad way to explain why the dog is not completely at fault here. When I was little I went to a friends house who's mom raised Samoyed's. I bent over to pet one of the dogs and the dog growled. I got my butt chewed out. It wasn't the dogs fault it was mine. I didn't approach the dog in the right way. 

GSD's are not a easy dog to have. If you are going to have them around kids there are things you need to be aware of and things you have to teach your kids about being dog aware.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


she was 6. She didn't know what he would do, just like most 6 years olds. 
female was not asleep. AND WHAT GSD WOULD STAY ASLEEP WHEN A DOOR IS OPENED RIGHT NEXT TO THEM AND SOMEONE WALKED RIGHT BY THEM....
She knew the little girl just like he did. She has been to the house before. She has stayed the night before. 
My female just knows a kid from an adult. 
When an adult comes by she doesn't know, her hair raises and she sniffs and growls, when its a child she just stands there. You're making it seem these dogs are stupid or something. 
You wanna be an a$$ to me I can be one right back. Im not stupid. I know what dogs can do. 
I was always taught that a dog should know the difference between a child and an adult and if a child is ever harmed by a dog then you should put the dog down. A CHILD COMES BEFORE A DOG!! 
Im not like you, if I know a dog would harm a child I don't want to put my child or anyone elses in the line of fire, I don't want to be responsible. I put a childs needs in front of a dogs. THATS MY PRIORITY.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> OP I am not trying to bash just trying in my own bad way to explain why the dog is not completely at fault here. When I was little I went to a friends house who's mom raised Samoyed's. I bent over to pet one of the dogs and the dog growled. I got my butt chewed out. It wasn't the dogs fault it was mine. I didn't approach the dog in the right way.
> 
> GSD's are not a easy dog to have. If you are going to have them around kids there are things you need to be aware of and things you have to teach your kids about being dog aware.


No it was the owners fault. You can't blame a kid for what kids do best.. be nice. She like me, should have put the dog up.. even though he was in my room and the door was shut. I should have just put him in the kennel in the first place, just like that lady should have done with her dogs. 
I wish you would quit saying crap like Im stupid, I had a GSD growing up. She was the same as my female now. SHe knew the difference between a threat and non-threat. 
It is my responsibility what this dog does. Just like I told my brother, if it would have been his boxer and she would have bit my kids face(not just nipped) there would have been a bullet through its brain. Just like if Ruger would have done major damage, he would die and I would expect to be sued or/and go to jail. 
That is why Im here, because I don't know where to take him. Ive tried calling places and get no response. No one wants a dog that is like him. My only other option is putting him down. Which is hard to do.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

If you don't have anything better to do than be rude to me, then why post on here. I was asking for help, then I get attacked. Find someone else to be an ******* too, Im having a hard enough time as it is. Thank you to everyone who wasn't rude and actually is trying to help not just bash!!!!!!!!!!! This is why I was hesitant to post in the first place... People like you...


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Vangie said:


> No one wants a dog that is like him. My only other option is putting him down. Which is hard to do.


This isn't true, please don't give up on your dog. People have offered a lot of constructive suggestions for how to manage him in the future. If those don't work, responsible rehoming is always an option, and might be a better one for your own peace of mind.

Were you able to contact his breeder? Have you tried reaching out to local rescues? Perhaps your friends and family may not want the dog, but there _are_ people out there who will. You just might have to broaden your search and reach out to other networks to find them. In that case, it helps a bunch to get in touch with people who place dogs routinely and have well-developed systems for finding the right matches.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

It seems like mentally you are stuck in one place. You need to think ahead, and anticipate. Part of having a shepherd, regardless of if it is a "chocolate or vanilla" is being at least one step ahead of them. They EXPECT for us to protect them first and foremost. This includes keeping them from situations that only set them up for failure- which from what you've described could mostly be avoided. 

If you cannot change what's going on around you, or teach your family to be more astute and cognizant of their surroundings and the dog's surroundings, he would be much better suited with a handler capable of doing those things. 


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

Buggibub said:


> It seems like mentally you are stuck in one place. You need to think ahead, and anticipate. Part of having a shepherd, regardless of if it is a "chocolate or vanilla" is being at least one step ahead of them. They EXPECT for us to protect them first and foremost. This includes keeping them from situations that only set them up for failure- which from what you've described could mostly be avoided.
> 
> If you cannot change what's going on around you, or teach your family to be more astute and cognizant of their surroundings and the dog's surroundings, he would be much better suited with a handler capable of doing those things.
> 
> ...


I can change it, but I think about the "what if" situation. He's been fine since all of this happened. My niece wasn't scarred. Her parents told her what she did wasn't right. I don't blame her though. Not one bit. She is a 6 year old LITTLE GIRL who loves animals and was around him all day. 
Im well aware it is my fault and they were there for 4 more days after all of this and nothing happened again. Which would have been hard for it too because he was either outside or in his box.

I think about my kids too though. I don.t know when they are gonna run out of there rooms in ninja costumes. I talked with them about it also, that they cant do that with Ruger it frightens him. AGAIN. They are kids, once in a blue moon Im sure they are gonna forget and then what happens! If he doesn't go crazy woo hoo. If he does and this time attacks then what! That is my fault. 
My kid would get hurt for being a kid. 
I am not stuck in one place. Im all over the place actually. Thats why I got on here in the first place, was to maybe get some help on who may take him with this background. THen again, I don't want to give him up, but then I know I don't have the money at this time to help him the way he needs it. If i did then I would do it!


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

*SERIOUSLY* check out the Shrodi Fund scholarship. The classes are in South Austin on weekends, which is really only an hour drive up fron San Antonio. Most of us on the forum drive further than that each way for training, and like I said, we got the scholarship two years ago for a fear-based reaction.

The Scholarship is *REAL* and you seem to be a *perfect* candidate. They usually reply back within a couple days or a week, with a consultation followed by training within a week of hearing back how much scholarship money you get.

This is a chance to earn a scholarship for *FREE* fear-based aggression training. You owe it to yourself and your dog to at least look into it and apply.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Vangie said:


> I think what Im having a hard time facing is, is that I KNOW no one is going to take him.
> 
> and Im not gonna just walk into any old shelter and say here, take this dog, knowing what they are gonna do.
> 
> ...


Vangie - I'd take your boy in a heart beat. There are many experianced dog owners out there that would be a perfect fit for your dog. 

If you truly think it best to find him a place with out kids, talk to the nearest GSD rescue. You can even keep and manage him while they find him a suitable place. You'll know going through a rescue that you have done the very best for your boy. 

I can give you additional information regarding Texas GSD rescues if you are interested.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

Buggibub said:


> *SERIOUSLY* check out the Shrodi Fund scholarship. The classes are in South Austin on weekends, which is really only an hour drive up fron San Antonio. Most of us on the forum drive further than that each way for training, and like I said, we got the scholarship two years ago for a fear-based reaction.
> 
> The Scholarship is *REAL* and you seem to be a *perfect* candidate. They usually reply back within a couple days or a week, with a consultation followed by training within a week of hearing back how much scholarship money you get.
> 
> This is a chance to earn a scholarship for *FREE* fear-based aggression training. You owe it to yourself and your dog to at least look into it and apply.


I will email them. Thank you


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Vangie said:


> I will email them. Thank you


You will need to fill out the application. I may still have ours somewhere from 2011 if you'd like to look at it for reference.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

Buggibub said:


> You will need to fill out the application. I may still have ours somewhere from 2011 if you'd like to look at it for reference.


Sounds good


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

If push comes to shove, I'd be willing to meet up with you somewhere around San Marcos or Buda at a park and help show you some of the confidence building techniques and focus redirects that the trainers worked with us on.

PM me your email. I'm going to look right now and see if I still have our application.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Found our application. It is a pdf copy, but you should be able to view it. Email?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the perfect storm "Then at around 4 months he started changing almost. He would growl in petsmart at people and dogs. Then people would come over and we would have to put him up because of the way he was acting(growling but hiding). He didn't try to bite anyone, he just acts nervous and will not go near them. My husbands work friend however went over to him kind of quick and aggressive like and he lunged at his throat. Thats when I was like, he can go outside when people are over.(we tried the whole slowly meeting people, didn't work) I have 2 kids and another GSD(whom i adopted from New York) and 2 cats. He is great around them all. Well what made me rethink the way he was acting is fine is when my niece was over and she came in our room late at night with no lights and he nipped at her face. That was the last straw. It scared me to death. He only left a small scratch, but I can't have a dog that will do that when I have children at my house on a day by day basis. I think he was just guarding his territory, but at this point. I just don't know anymore, I know he is a result of backyard breeding. She's only 6. I tend to think of the what ifs.I know with rehabilitation and counseling he would be an amazing dog. He sits, lays down, stays. He was spoiled rotten as a puppy just because he was so amazing. He plays fetch with anything and everything. People have told me to put him into training but at this point we cannot afford it. Im still hesitant on even rehoming him Because we do love him, I just can't take the risk. The other thing that scared me is when my kids dressed up in their ninja suits he went psycho on them, barking and growling. They had to run in their room real quick!! Please help and no bashing please"

BAD genetics and management.

the dog nipped the child's face --thankfully it was just a scrape on the nose. How is the child? 

since everyone is focusing on the child entering the bedroom incident , here is a reminder 

dog is inconsistent -- loose cannon -- he "So I was talking with my husband today about all of this and he reminded me of a few incidents with him. Like one time I was sitting on the porch and he came up and Ruger seen him, but he still lunged for him and barked and growled like crazy. Another time, in the house he walked down the hall and was almost to the bedroom and he again lunged and started barking and growling. He seen him. Had to of known who he was by smell at least! At least thats what I think but maybe I'm wrong. When my cousins where over(little girls 9 & 10) they were getting up to get breakfast as he was going out and he had seen them before but he chased the older one back to the couch barking at her. "

Buggibub "Both of these instances to me seem as though he is acting out his innate protect and defend characteristics. " this was the husband, in full light , no surprise element --
this is the husband - part of the "wallpaper" day to day .
no reason for the dog to be reactive . 



"There is just so much that SHOWS he is aggressive and not good with kids but then there are times like tonight(which are all the time) when he is laying next to my kids just licking their faces and loving them."

there is NO WAY that would be happening -- the dog is not stable 

"My kids are crazy 21/7... So should I just keep him in a box or outside that much too! 
Money we don't have. We are moving out of a rental because the owner is selling. And well just other expenses that need to be taken care of before I can pay for a trainer or training classes. I do as much as I can with him. Like I said we play all the time and he knows basic commands. My female will chase after the deer outside, even when I tell her no. Ruger, will come and sit right by me and watch her with I swear a smirk on his face cause he knows shes gonna be in trouble when she gets back. "

crazy kids 21/7 -- 

BOTH dogs need better management and training.
The female is blowing you off and chasing the deer -- THEN gets "it" when she comes back. Sure fire way to not have a good recall. The male needs major training and discipline and management -- if you are going to keep him.
I am sure the commotion in the house doesn't help any.
Maybe too much on the plate already to handle the dog .


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Then rehome the dog if you won't take the steps necessary to protect your dog. I have raised dogs and kids for over 30 years you don't put a perfectly good dog down for your mistakes! 


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

OHO GOLLY.. Now Im a bad person because a dog likes to chase deer. You people really are crazy.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

Just crazy how you get on a dog forum to ask for help/advice and all people can do is scold you and tell you that you cant manage anything. That is all your fault and make me seem like a horrible person. Seriously. Check your hearts people. I need help and the only one here trying to help is buggibub and a few others that didn't lash out at me.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

my gosh there are TONS of dogs that chase deer, rabbits etc, its rather a natural thing, certainly doesn't make a person a bad owner..

vangie, take up buggibub on her/his offer, this may be a real help with your situation


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Vangie said:


> OHO GOLLY.. Now Im a bad person because a dog likes to chase deer. You people really are crazy.


The older dog doesn't have much discipline which is potentially fueling Ruger's insubordination. There's no consistency so the dogs have no idea who is truly in charge. Just because Ruger doesn't go after deer doesn't mean he is good at listening; it could mean he channels his confusion in other ways i.e. random signs of aggression. Yes, he may not be bred of good nerves, but the poor dog may just be confused. Purely speculating. 


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

Buggibub said:


> The older dog doesn't have much discipline which is potentially fueling Ruger's insubordination. There's no consistency so the dogs have no idea who is truly in charge. Just because Ruger doesn't go after deer doesn't mean he is good at listening; it could mean he channels his confusion in other ways i.e. random signs of aggression. Yes, he may not be bred of good nerves, but the poor dog may just be confused. Purely speculating.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


So because she has chased the deer a couple of times(not all the time), they don't have discipline. 
Im surrounded by deer, 24/7 and this has only happened a few times. She for the most part listen. They both do. They are dogs, they are not gonna listen every single time and if they do then that is a well trained dog. I have a family other than dogs to take care of. I don't have 4 hours a day to put into a dog like that.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

You don't have to put 4 hours a day into it. If you have a super lightweight leash, try clipping Ruger to you for a couple hours each day for a week or two. Do your normal stuff, but keep him clipped. He will follow, he will feel like he is "helping." This, in theory, will teach him that you are the alpha. It will also help your female because, again- in theory, separation work will show her that you're the boss and she gets your attention if she behaves the way you want her to, and that directly reaffirms your role as alpha. 


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Another thing that I didn't see mentioned is that you said he was really spoiled as a puppy. At his age, he's still considered a puppy - even though he's a large one, lol! But he's still a work in progress. He does need structure and training or he'll try to run the household  Buggibub, that's a very generous offer, what a kind soul you are. Hugs to both of you!

I'd take him too, I don't read anything that puts me off about him. He sounds like a normal puppy that's undisciplined and needs some work - just like many of them.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

When Ruger is being sweet, you have described the situations that indicate it is in a relaxed environment. Any sort of guests disrupt that atmosphere. Perhaps getting Ruger into a relaxed state quickly will help. Yawn a lot. Over exaggerate the yawns. Also look up T Touch methods. Rub his nose around te gums. Firm pats going from head to tail also help. A relaxed dog will tend to think things through more and reduce their reactive tendencies. 


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sure dogs chase deer -- that's not the point -- there seems to be a lot of chaos . The point is using the deer chasing as an illustration for not understanding training . The dog "gets it" when she comes back -- this -- "Ruger, will come and sit right by me and watch her with I swear a smirk on his face cause he knows shes gonna be in trouble when she gets back. "

is not effective training -- it is counter productive, the dog is going to come back less willingly each time .

Instead of hiring a person to come in and take $300 per visit to train an aggressive dog, spend the $100 or whatever and enroll in a good obedience class . At the moment there does not appear to be much structure . Everyone and everything sort of does what they want to do when they want to do.

I think you can see changes when you have some rules and order . 
You are lucky to have Buggibub close by to help you.

no - me people are not crazy -


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

carmspack said:


> sure dogs chase deer -- that's not the point -- there seems to be a lot of chaos . The point is using the deer chasing as an illustration for not understanding training . The dog "gets it" when she comes back -- this -- "Ruger, will come and sit right by me and watch her with I swear a smirk on his face cause he knows shes gonna be in trouble when she gets back. "
> 
> is not effective training -- it is counter productive, the dog is going to come back less willingly each time .
> 
> ...


Again, she doesn't do it a lot. 
I have 2 kids, 2 cats and 2 GSDs' and a husband that is hardly home. I have no family/friends here. I have to drive to dallas every two weeks(until I move up there soon) to take care of my mother with emphysema.
The them come to me thing is a lot easier than for me to go to them. I am going to try buggibubs offer but with my schedule I won't be able to go all the time. 
I know he needs training. The more and more people keep telling me this it makes me realize maybe I just can't do it. I really don't know if i can. I am lucky to have his/her help and Im going to try. 
I love that so many of you are willing to help me out. I realize 2 GSD's were more than I bargained for, especially one that needs a lot of attention and help.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

There are some nice parks off 35 in Austin. Next time you drive up to the Big D, I'll bring the Buggimonster with me and can demonstrate some of the methods, techniques. It can be fun. It may seem overwhelming, but it doesn't have to be that way. 

The dog is 1.5 years old? So that's putting him right at the terrible adolescent phase. Structure is so critical and it has to start with you and percolate down to the rest of your family. 

Heck, maybe adding structure will make your life easier because everybody and the dogs (cats don't care about humans I swear) will be living harmoniously. 


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Vangie/everybody I'm a dude. Had to come clean lol. 

My girlfriend will want to tag along. She's helped Buggi every step of the way, looking for a Masters in Psych, and thrives on working on canine behavior. She's a sponge when it comes to learning about this stuff. 




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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I understand the situation - you did say you were at the end of your rope --- 
take advantage of Buggibub's generous offer -- I think he is right on the money. If not and the dog can't fit into your household then at least he will be properly assessed, improved, making it so much easier to rehome him.
win win


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm glad you started this thread, Vangie. At least now you know that your puppy isn't a lost cause, and you can think about rehoming him instead of PTS. It might be too much for you to handle, but you wouldn't be the first one to realize this. Usually these puppies are rehomed around 8 months, and then again at 1.5 years. They can be a real handful. If you don't know what you're getting into, it can come as a real shock, lol.


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> I'm glad you started this thread, Vangie. At least now you know that your puppy isn't a lost cause, and you can think about rehoming him instead of PTS. It might be too much for you to handle, but you wouldn't be the first one to realize this. Usually these puppies are rehomed around 8 months, and then again at 1.5 years. They can be a real handful. If you don't know what you're getting into, it can come as a real shock, lol.


 My female was pretty rough at the start. 6 months and not potty trained. I was nervous with her around my kids for a long time. 
She would cower down if you went near her(still does from time to time, especially if I have to get onto her). 

She had marks and cuts and walked around with her head down and her back curved all the time. Would hardly look you in the eyes. 
She wasn't awesome around people at first either, but the more we visited my moms and took her places the better she has gotten. 

Still can't take her into petsmart. To much confusion and commotion. She will now however go up to people and other dogs and sniff and walk away instead of growling(once lunged, almost got the man in the crotch, I forewarned him about her before, it was his stupid fault--" I have a GSD and all dogs love me"... yea well she didn't). This was within the first few months of having her and we took her for a walk. 
I know she could use more training but I know I don't have time or money to do both!! I would loose my mind! 

Thats why rehoming keeps coming to my mind, then I get sad and when the kids overheard me and the husband talking... well it wasnt a pretty situation. Even after I tried to explain to them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Vangie sounds like you need a holiday.
one day at a time -- the answer will come


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

The whole family will have to be active in the training. If you don't have time, have the kids help. This will help them establish leadership roles with the dogs as well. Not to mention keep them out of your hair!

Anything is possible. Prioritize, develop a plan, execute accordingly. 

"Never mistake motion for action"- Hemingway


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## Vangie (Aug 25, 2012)

Buggibub said:


> The whole family will have to be active in the training. If you don't have time, have the kids help. This will help them establish leadership roles with the dogs as well. Not to mention keep them out of your hair!
> 
> Anything is possible. Prioritize, develop a plan, execute accordingly.
> 
> ...


How long does it take for him to accepted, if they do?

Long story(maybe short)
The house were renting(that took us forever to find because of my "aggressive breed dog" and $500 dog deposit for each dog) the owner is selling. We don't have the credit to buy so don't ask. 

Well after a long long long depressing few weeks(Ive had people laugh and hang up on me), I have yet to find a place that will let us bring both dogs or even just one! ( There were a few, but its because basically, you need the dog or some sort of protection. I don't know a lot about SA, so neighborhoods are foreign to me.) 

Someone did tell me about ESA(Emotional support animal)(I dont know if it actually works though). Yes my Dr will help because I do suffer from anxiety. 

So I am having to move us up to our 1 bedroom place in Dallas till I can find a place here. And so we can save money to find a place here because our landlords are being assholes and more than likely we wont get but half our deposit and dog deposit back. That will also take 30 days. 

My husband just started working a new job. Was laid off for two months. We basically sold everything just to stay afloat in this house so we could get our $3000 back when our lease was up! And the house we have up there now had to have lots of work done. 

I will hopefully be back in a month! Until then I am loosing my mind with all the stress as you can tell, what he did a couple weeks ago was icing on the cake.

So I am going to send in application. Hopefully they will accept and hold the spot till I get back. But then that is just more time for him not to be in training. 

   BLAHHHH


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Been there with the "aggressive" breed bullseye. 

Training isn't just going to classes. It's constant. People learn things all the time, and not just in a classroom. It can be as simple as obedience work on a leash during a walk, to performing Down/Stays during commercials on the television. 

Make everything a learning experience. You'll end up doing more training without even thinking about it. 

Run to Home Depot, get 6' of super thin (1/8") coated steel cable and connect it to a plastic English-style clip (also at the Depot). The whole shibang will run you about $3.00.

Use that to hook him up to you and make sure he's with you 100% of the time while you're inside. It'll keep him occupied, make him feel like he has a task, and establish you as alpha. That's training!

When you walk him, make him do stairs, or circles randomly, or find something to weave in between. Walk him on different surfaces, too. Praise him EXCESSIVELY when he gets something right. That's training!




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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Remember, too, that you need to pay attention to his attention breaking point. Dogs comprehend training sequences in series of 5 and 9 before requiring a break. Less than 5, may take them a bit, more than 9, you're not going to make much progress. 


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