# GSD Attacks Agility Judge!



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

with kisses!!!!!!!!!!!! it's a great video of one of our 'scary' GSD's at a trial!










http://www.dropshots.com/Kiana96#albums/Other%20GSD's/2009-02-07/13:29:58

There's some other good ones to watch of GSD's on the same site (along the right side?). Neat seeing so many GSD's run in a row. Different jumping styles and forms. Along with handler styles and forms.

Watch this dog.... (helps if I put in the link, so CLICK HERE!!!) it SOUNDS like my Bretta! (and for those of you still reading







1. Why do you think the dog spun AWAY from the handler after the tire? and 2. Would you have front crossed after the weaves? Why or why not????)


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

well it certainly looks like the pupper was having a good time


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## Aster (May 17, 2008)

Haha, your subject line got me a little worried!

I like in the "attack" video how she moved on and gave her dog a chance to be successful elsewhere on the course when s/he got stuck. I hate watching handlers with Novice dogs either keep attempting the same obstacle over and over and over (ie the Novice JWW dog that is asked to "weave!" 18 times and obviously isn't going to get it on the 19th try) or, on the other extreme, picks their dog up (not literally for our guys







) and leaves the ring. The dog in this video got a great learning experience in a trial situation and was given the opportunity to succeed. Nice job focusing back in on the handler to get the 2o2o for the dogwalk, and beautiful weaves!

For the "barking like bretta video"







I think the spin out was due to the handler hanging back too far behind that tunnel. She then had to take a couple steps out to get around the tunnel herself. The beginning of those steps happened to be when the dog was taking the tire so the dog read that as drive left after the tire. Even though the handler is saying "right, right, right", the body language is way strong than the verbal (as it always is!). Personally, I think I would have led out between jump 2 and the tire (on the tunnel side) and then done a front cross on the landing side of the tire before the tunnel. Could have also led out past the tire, faced the dog, put the right hand out, call them to you and then flip them right into the tunnel.

Definitely would not have done a front cross after the weave poles as that sets the dog up perfectly for an off course table after that jump (which the dog totally thought about!). I would have reared the teeter or front crossed the teeter as we were getting our 2o2o. Probably the rear though.

Also, I believe the bar on the triple came down because the handler was completely stopped moving, then started driving towards the table as the dog was in the air. The dog changed its body position slightly in the air which was likely enough for the bar. With Aster, that's asking for a knocked bar and I think that's what happened here.

All in all, though, that's a really nice, fast dog! and the handling system seems to work well enough for them. I think they could be a lot faster and smoother though


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: I think the spin out was due to the handler hanging back too far behind that tunnel. She then had to take a couple steps out to get around the tunnel herself. The beginning of those steps happened to be when the dog was taking the tire so the dog read that as drive left after the tire. Even though the handler is saying "right, right, right", the body language is way strong than the verbal (as it always is!).


The dog definitely was on the wrong lead to take a right after the tire (and to the tunnel), thus had to back spin to get on the correct lead. You did an interesting read cause I was trying to pick up the body cues from the handler and didn't even hear the 'right right right' part! Goes to show what I'm told all the time (usually after I mess something up with a verbal) that our dogs are MUCH more likely to react on a body cue than any of the darn words coming our of our mouths!

Do you think the dog thought she was going to rear cross? Or was just not sure so thought the course went to the left. That darn tunnel was at a REALLY sharp angle from the tire for a big jumping dog like a GSD.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeewith kisses!!!!!!!!!!!! it's a great video of one of our 'scary' GSD's at a trial!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, mean GSD at judge...........LOL

You don't have a bark, bark agility dog, do you ? Oh boy, the ones that do this & also the Shelties that bark & spin, oh boy ! I don't know how some people get through the courses.........









Ok, not sure on the tire ? I would have stayed on the inside which I think she did ? Dog started to go towards table, but she got him back to put him in the tunnel. The pivot after the weaves looked good, but seemed to throw her off...............

Please give me your opinion, learning & need all the info I can.


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## Aster (May 17, 2008)

Had to go back and watch it again (I totally missed the lead first time through). I think the lead came from the dog expecting the rear. Even if the dog wasn't reading the lateral movement, the hanging way back/stopping seems to be this handler's very strong cue that a rear cross is coming up and I think this dog knows that. I think the lead came from the expectation and that was pushed into the spin by her subsequent lateral movement. The dog should be able to do a flying change of leads (the horsey term for swapping leads) pretty quickly (if they have balance) without being forced out into a spin.

Im guessing she doesn't have a lead out, which is a shame, because the start could be majorly simplified and the tire to tunnel angle could be shaped to make it easier by getting up there ahead of the dog to do the front.


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## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

Geesh - my heart dropped when I saw the title too! Bad MRL!!!
















I was at a large dog show here in Denver last weekend and saw a Malinois (young male) attack a judge. Needless to say, he was immediately dismissed. Startled the cr*p out of me because I was sitting just outside the fence a few feet from him. I just wasn't expecting it. 

I spent a lot of time watching the agility. No GSD's, but there was a Belgian Terv. The rest were smaller dogs - lots and lots of border collies and aussies. I noticed a lot of barking and spinning in the shelties. I know nothing about the correct way to do agility, but I sure can appreciate all the hard work it must take to get to that point. It was a lot of fun to watch!


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: AsterHad to go back and watch it again (I totally missed the lead first time through). I think the lead came from the dog expecting the rear. Even if the dog wasn't reading the lateral movement, the hanging way back/stopping seems to be this handler's very strong cue that a rear cross is coming up and I think this dog knows that. I think the lead came from the expectation and that was pushed into the spin by her subsequent lateral movement. The dog should be able to do a flying change of leads (the horsey term for swapping leads) pretty quickly (if they have balance) without being forced out into a spin.
> 
> Im guessing she doesn't have a lead out, which is a shame, because the start could be majorly simplified and the tire to tunnel angle could be shaped to make it easier by getting up there ahead of the dog to do the front.


Ok, sorry but this info just makes my head spin.............










I'm nowhere near this level yet & have no clue what your talking about.


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## Aster (May 17, 2008)

Sorry... Ill try to translate









Dogs canter or gallop like horses when they run and one of the front legs always "leads" each stride. So if a dog or horse is on the right lead, the right front leg goes first, then the left front and right hind together (or pretty close to together), then the left hind comes last. Horses and dogs turn best in the direction of the lead that they are on. So to make a sharp right turn to the tunnel like we want this dog to do, we're hoping that the dog lands on the right lead and we are trying to influence the dog to land with the right front first through our body language and verbal cues. By being on the right lead for a right turn, the dog is more balanced and better able to make a tight, smooth turn. 

A rear cross (aka a "rear" or "RX" or "RC") is when you cross behind the dog in order to change from handling the dog on one side to the other.

A front cross (aka a "front" or a "FX" or "FC") is what you called a pivot above, like she did after the weave poles. You're still changing from one side of the dog to the other, but you're changing sides in front of the dogs path.

Generally speaking, either a front or rear cross signals to the dog that a turn is coming up in the course, otherwise you, as the handler, wouldn't have any reason to switch sides and interfere with the straight path that the dog is (hopefully) taking.

This handler does a lot of rear crosses and when she does, she slows down a lot and even stops sometimes to allow her dog to get ahead of her so she can cross behind him. She slows down alot and stops briefly before the tire so, in my opinion, the dog thinks she is going to rear cross at the tire jump. Since this would be a rear cross from the right to left side of the dog, the dog thinks, "ok we're turning left after this" so he lands on his left lead after jumping the tire to make it easier for himself to do a left turn.

At the same time, our handler finds herself stuck behind the tunnel and she needs to move laterally towards the dog, instead of driving forward, in order to get around the tunnel. So now the dog thinks she's told him left (because dog's thinking rear cross) and now she IS moving left so the dog turns left (the beginning of the spin). Now the handler can get past the tunnel and starts moving towards the tunnel entrance and the dog goes "oh ****! we're going that way?!" and makes a Uturn (still to the left because we're on the left lead and the 2nd half of our spin).

The flying change is changing leads without slowing down to a jog or trot and it looks like they've skipped. So our dog could have landed on the left lead and before starting that left turn realized that "no, we're actually going right" and changed leads (changed leads/swapped leads/flying change) to the right which would have allowed him to quickly adjust and make the right turn into the tunnel. Our handler was unintentionally giving such strong cues to turn left though, that our dog didn't get the message about the tunnel until it was too late.

For the second part, a lead out is a start line stay. For example I can have Aster sit and tell her to stay in front of the first jump and get a few jumps ahead of her so I have time to set up the run the way I want it to go. The way the course is laid out and how well your dog stays dictates how much you can lead out. Shaping is just using your body and your cues to help spell out very clearly where you want the dog to go and hopefully make it easier for them.

Hope that is understandable and helpful


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:You don't have a bark, bark agility dog, do you ?


I'm lucky with Bretta's barking, cause it would drive me crazy if she barked thru the entire run. Instead, she is like the dog in the video, barks to go at the start, may bark a time or 2 on the table, and if I mess up and get her confused she's bark to say 'what's next already !!!!!???'. 



> Quote: Ok, not sure on the tire ? I would have stayed on the inside which I think she did ?


Yes the handler did, which NORMALLY should have cued the dog to stay on the lead (right lead I think) to naturally and smoothly make the turn to the tunnel after the tire. But that is NOT what happened. 

So the handler did SOMETHING to get the dog on the wrong (left) lead. The lead that would naturally allow the dog to turn away from the handler after the tire. And if the dog is on the wrong lead, when landing, they literally HAVE to back spin to get back on track or they would stumble and fall. Pay attention at a trial.... any time you see a back spin away from the handler after a jump it's cause the dog wasn't given the info it needed to select the proper lead on TAKE OFF, so it would land 'right' and smoothly make the correct turn. 

I'm thinking that maybe a slowup is the way the handler cues her rear crosses (did Aster figure that out already?). So the dog, on it's takeoff changed it's lead thinking the course would go to the left upon landing. But when it developed the course went the other way, the only fix was the back spin to the tunnel.

And while theoretically I think our dogs should be able to change leads in mid-air, and I have seen those darn Border Collies do it. I KNOW that's a reason Bretta knocks bars. Me giving late info so instead of her taking off and landing on the proper lead smoothly. She has to flail around in mid-air over the bar!!!

While on the topics of 'leads', that's also responsible for the bobble after the weave poles..... putting the front cross after the weaves put the dog on the lead that pulls the dog toward the handler....And while the jump right after the weaves was then easy, the subsequent PUSH away from the handler to the next obstacle was again on the wrong lead for the dog. It was naturally curving towards the handler still. 

So think about if instead the handler had NOT done the front cross but pulled the dog to the jump after the weaves (so dog on handlers right....). The natural lead of the dog pulling towards us makes the line easy from the jump to the teeter. You then have to deal with the rear cross on the teeter (or front cross on the down side) cause that was another change of direction.

I always try to remember that when we do either a front or rear cross it SHOULD mean a change of direction (hm... change of lead?) for the dog. Their 4 legs take much more organization than our 2! So if we do our crosses consistantly, our dogs should be getting info on the upcoming course and it's direction.


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## Aster (May 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> I always try to remember that when we do either a front or rear cross it SHOULD mean a change of direction (hm... change of lead?) for the dog.


I just had that revelation too







And I never really thought about the lead coming out of the weave poles...

Guess I'll be watching and concentrating on leads during all of Aster's class tomorrow night


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

Dude.. I think my brain just exploded.... Seriously.. Lol. I'm still very new at Agility so haven't learned all that yet.. Neat videos thou.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: I think my brain just exploded....


I've been doing agility for years and STILL attend some classes/clinics/seminars and leave thinking my head did explode!!!


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

Glad to know I'm not alone in losing my head! Lol. Maze starts her beginner's class on the 11th. I can't wait!


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Thanks for the heart drop, MRL.









Tanner sure is enjoying himself. There was one video of him where he totally broke away from his handler and happily trotted off to greet a person inside the ring. She was probably fiddling with something, but Tanner thought she was way cooler than the course. The handler was like, "Tanner .. Tanner ... Taaaahhhhneeerr!" And he was just all tails.

LOL. Cute dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: The StigThanks for the heart drop, MRL.


I just don't know what you could be talking about???


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