# Do chasing and fetching games encourage prey drive?



## beib (Aug 7, 2017)

We are training our 3.5-month old puppy to NOT chase our cat. Our vet suggested avoiding games such as chasing (she loves chasing a broom when we sweep the floor) and fetching. She is also teething, so tuck games are out too. This means that the only safe thing we could do with her is walking, which we do. 

But is it true that chasing and fetching games would encourage prey drive and should be avoided when training not chasing the cat? There is plenty violence on TV and there is little evidence that consuming these lead to actual violence...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

There are different trains of thought... one of my boys has high prey drive, I don't see a problem with channeling it, he's still been trained not to chase our cat.

apples and oranges to me.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

My dog would very much like to chase chickens, and my cats for fun. Taught her that's not allowed but tennis balls and such are. Haven't had issues with it. Just make sure you're consistent in your training and teach that cats are off limits. Dogs are smart. Some won't touch one of your own cats but new cats are open game so I would watch out for that. Get a good solid recall going on and that'll help more than not allowing fetch. If anything fetch has provided a good outlet for my dogs.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

actually, giving another outlet for that energy and prey drive is what you WANT, not something to avoid. Tire him out with a game of fetch, working with a flirt pole, or other exercise before socializing him around the cat. It will make a big difference in his actions and that will allow the cat to relax as well.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

And tug can be a nice reward for good behavior out on a walk. If your pup does a good job ignoring the dog across the street or does a wonderful recall or a beautiful heel, a short game of tug can be really nice.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes, it's a good thing to channel prey drive into desirable outlets like ball and tug. My dogs aren't allowed to chase deer, but free to tug and fetch balls and toys, and there is zero conflict.

My family dog growing up was wonderful with our own cats, but would chase the neighbor's cat if it came into our yard. So they can even be that specific.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I've not had a problem. 

Agree with Fodder, it's very much 'apples and oranges'. 

If you do things consistently from the very beginning, you can channel their drive into chasing/retrieving desirable objects (balls, frisbees) and then use that to help desensitize and proof against chasing other pets, as well as building impulse control. My younger dog goes crazy when she sees the Chuck-It launcher come out, the same dog has clear understanding that rabbits and chickens are not for chasing. Apples and Oranges.

On the other hand, I would absolutely discourage chasing things that you don't want chased or chewed on - the broom, the vacuum, snow shovels, etc. It makes me want to bang my head against the wall when people think puppies chasing the vacuum is funny, so they giggle and make it a game.... I vacuum constantly and I don't need the dogs attacking the Dyson.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wish vets would focus on the physical aspect of dogs, not confuse owners about training. What would we do with our dogs' energy if we couldn't play fetch? Same as avoiding tug with a Pit. They need an outlet for their drives. If played by the rules (ours!), it will be fine.


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

2 trainers explain to me this: Dogs can have typical prey drive (chasing a toy) or predatory drive which is totally different. A dog can has both of them maybe just 1.... (saying this cause I own the dog who has the "bad" predatory drive)...I would just discourage the dog to chase the cat but i would TOTALLY play fetch with the dog, great way to exercise. They are smart


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## beib (Aug 7, 2017)

Thank you everyone. This is our first puppy/dog, and it has been like first time parents, being given all sorts of information and advice, can be very confusing sometimes!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

beib said:


> Thank you everyone. This is our first puppy/dog, and it has been like first time parents, being given all sorts of information and advice, can be very confusing sometimes!


I understand that. Different thoughts on training. Different thoughts on feeding. Different thoughts on what is good behavior and what is not. It can drive you nuts. Just keep in mind most everyone giving advice wants the best for our dogs. Find what works best for your family. For ours, a good game of tug or fetch works wonders for everyone. Get good advice on HOW to play tug. There actually are steps to a good game of tug that will make is better for you and your pup. 

Articles | The Collared Scholar
This gal just finished up a 7 day play challenge to teach folks the best way to play tug with their dogs. 
The Power of Playing Tug w/ Your Dog
I have only watched a snippet of this but over all I like Mr Ellise's advice


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I transferred all of Beau's prey drive to balls from the day I got him. He is a cadaver dog and is frequently working in the vicinity of other chained dogs, dogs behind fences and recently 3 hissing cats on a porch under which he was searching. I has also had 5 deer run about 100 feet from us and several fawns jump from a few feet away. All the thinks about is his toy.

Tilly had a former owner and she did not want her to play with toys. Tilly has to work on lead as a trailing dog in part due to her prey drive. I can call her off but not if she is out of sight and I don't know.


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

NancyJ said:


> I transferred all of Beau's prey drive to balls from the day I got him. He is a cadaver dog and is frequently working in the vicinity of other chained dogs, dogs behind fences and recently 3 hissing cats on a porch under which he was searching. I has also had 5 deer run about 100 feet from us and several fawns jump from a few feet away. All the thinks about is his toy.
> 
> Tilly had a former owner and she did not want her to play with toys. Tilly has to work on lead as a trailing dog in part due to her prey drive. I can call her off but not if she is out of sight and I don't know.


That's awesome! How you did it?! I have been trying for a year with my dog and no success at all...Can't get him out of the flirt pole and even the flirt pole is not that bog of a deal for him


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

karladupler said:


> That's awesome! How you did it?! I have been trying for a year with my dog and no success at all...Can't get him out of the flirt pole and even the flirt pole is not that bog of a deal for him


Well I started from day 1 with being very engaging with him with toys but he was a little crazy biting thing and I was constantly having to redirect. We related to each other through the toys a lot


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

I meant to respond to this yesterday and I never did, IMVHO your vet is confusing three concepts: 

1. drive development 
2. prey drive 
2 A) A subset of above what I'll call for lack of a better term "killer instinct".

1: Drive development - you can through games like fetch increase the drives of your dog. Typically this is accomplished (intentionally or unintentionally) by rewarding the animal for the behavior on top of the intrinsic reward it gets from the behavior in the first place. Praise, treats, outlet for energy (i.e. stick him in a kennel all day then make him mind his manner in the home THEN he gets released to chase the ball, the ball = fun and release!), and cutting short the game before the dog is done playing (never quite satisfying that itch, like a drug if you will never quite achieving that perfect high, he always wants MORE). This is useful if you have a specific goal to accomplish, as you're encouraging the animal to release his innate desires / compulsions under your control, YOU control when where and how much he gets what he wants. You're the sole source of his drug, his happiness, he now NEEDS to please you to get what he wants and depends on you to give him release. Because you've increased the pleasure he gets from these activities. 

You may find all this drug talk distastefulness (I don't want my dog to be an out of control addict!!!) but I don't use this analogy haphazardly. Drugs are the source of all "fun" or "pleasure" in animals. Serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, are what makes you feel happy, they're released when you do something you enjoy or get satisfaction from. People will do *anything* to get these drugs, whether that be positive like working out or negative like taking drugs to release them without work. Dogs are no different, although no where near as complex of course. And all the "positive reinforcement" that's talked about in training, treats, praise, play, bonding, all of that is at it's core a manipulation of brain chemicals to shape behavior. When I do X behavior (or don't do X behavior), Y happens. Y makes me happy, it feels good, I'll do X so I get Y. It's really that simple. 


2. Any working dog like a GSD *SHOULD* have prey drive Wikipedia provides an excellent short breakdown of what prey drive means: "the instinctive inclination of a carnivore to find, pursue and capture prey. In all predators the prey drive follows an inevitable sequence: Search (orient, eye); Stalk, chase; Bite (grab-bite, kill-bite); dissect, consume. In wolves, the prey drive is complete and balanced since it utilises the whole range from search to kill and finally consumes the prey in order to survive. In different breeds of dog certain of these five steps have been amplified or reduced by human-controlled selective breeding for various purposes." 

GSDs are not typically used for hunting, they're originally designed for herding and later tracking/police work etc. None of which requires the dog to *complete* the sequence, so it's been bred down. A herder would be pretty useless if it killed the sheep every time it caught up to one wouldn't it!

2 A) "killer instinct", bite-dissect-consume portion. This can be developed in certain dogs and if released into the wild most dogs will do what they must to survive but *in general*, you either have it or you don't. It's either instinctive or it isn't, and playing ball isn't going to change that 

As a counterpoint:
My family had multiple Miniature Schnauzers growing up, although they were bred to be small companion animals they're still terriers. Their base purpose is to hunt down varmints and kill them. When they see something they want to kill, their prey drive goes through the roof. They go temporarily deaf, their pain tolerance sky rockets, they become ultra focused, and they would tear it to pieces without hesitation. (A blind adrenaline fueled rage in humans would be a close approximation.) They can learn to respect certain animals like cats in the home if raised with them, but not in a million years would I ever trust a couple of the dogs we had growing up with a hamster. _They're not bred to be controlled in that situation,_ they're fighting another animal to the death, they have milliseconds to avoid a bite or scratch to the eye or other injury. They don't have time for you to assess the situation, relay your desired course of action, and then carry it out without getting injured. Anymore than a boxer has time to wait for his trainer to see a jab coming and tell him to slip before getting hit. *Independence of thought & action* is a requirement.

Which btw is what makes shepherds & retrievers so special as companions (GSDs, Mals, Dutchies, Border Collies, Labradors, etc), they require some independent thought based on their training but their jobs have an element of _time_ involved that allows coaching / direction without effect on success. Like football vs the boxing example above, football players often have to improvise to achieve success but the general course of actions are controlled from the sidelines. 

Basically what I'm getting at above is that dogs aren't *that* complicated they're purpose designed creatures, selectively bred for specific reasons. Look at their breeds job, look in depth at what that involves, what instincts would be necessary for success, look to the breed standard what traits positive and negative have been intentionally developed. That along with your individual dogs personality, adherence (or lack thereof) to the breed standard, and traits of his parents is an incredibly effective way to predict behavior. 

Sorry for the gigantic rabbit hole I went down there, but I hoped to give you a more complete picture of why I think what your vet said was silly.

ETA emphasis & wording


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## beib (Aug 7, 2017)

Thanks for all the really helpful responses!

Well, Mya is now good at not chasing the cat (needs daily reinforcement), but she still plays fetch happily, so that's evidence against the advice I was given


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