# Are all BYB's bad breeders?



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

You have two, nicely bred dogs. Both dogs have decent drive, stable nerves and everything it takes to be a great Shepherd. 
Decent confirmation, have all up to date shots and are OFA'ed. 

The only thing they don't have are titles, however the breeder knows enough about dogs to determine that both dogs have what it takes to be great breeding stock. 

The pups grow up in the family, they have a great yard, with tunnels, a pool with plastic bottles, a slide, tons of toys, they get socialized from the beginning, their shots and are sold for 600 dollars, without papers/possibly AKC papers. 

Would you call that a bad BYB?

DISCUSS!


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Well, how do you know the dogs "have what it takes" without titles? I thought that was the purpose of titles, to proof the dog. 

I have a $600 dog I bought as a puppy from a trainer. His dogs were not titled (well, the sire was, but the dam was not) although their sires/dams were. The pups had a great yard, family, toys, mini agility course set up, the works. They had lots of other dogs and people around for socialization, basically the whole 9 yards. 

I was very happy with my pup and I continued to socialize him every opportunity I got. Then he hit about 6 months, became fear aggressive and reactive, and I've been spending tons of time and $$$ to help him. It's horrible. I specifically told the trainer that I wanted a dog with "nerves of steel." I ended up with a dog with a lot of drive but no ability to balance it. 

The breeder, IMO, was not a bad guy. He thought he was breeding good dogs, and I thought he knew enough about GSDs that I could trust him. But his breeding combination, IMO,was a disaster. For as much as I love my $600 dog, I know that for the next 12 years I'm going to have to be hyper-vigilant with him. I don't know what would have happened to my dog if someone else had bought him; and if they had not wanted to spend the time and money while testing their sanity to keep him. 

So, the breeder _thought_ he had a good combo, and I believe he had good intentions, but it turned out bad. Looking back, I feel like I should have done more research, but I thought he knew what he was doing. If Tanner never had his fear/reactivity problems, I'd probably think that my previous trainer was a great breeder. 

I don't think everything can be black and white.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wouldn't consider that a BYB, just because they aren't working them to titles. I know of a couple breeders that have no venue available nearby to train, so titling is slow-going. 
But I don't know that I would support them either unless the dogs matched well pedigree-wise, and I would want the pedigree information(proven) available without excuses as far as paperwork is concerned.
IF the breeder cannot supply the info on the parents, then yes that would be a BYB and one that shouldn't be breeding.

I'd still rather support a breeder that works their dogs in the venue that I would be pursuing with a new pup. 

I would also hope this breeder screens their potential buyers and responsibly has a contract stating they must return or inform the breeder if the pup(dog) re-home is going to occur.

Minnieski, your description fits Onyx's breeder as well, and I have to manage her the same. Because of her temperament, we can't pursue things that I would have liked to with her.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

How do we know the breeder knows enough about dogs to determine this for themself? What has the breeder done to prove themself?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Number one - does the breeder have the knowledge and experience to make that call?

Number two - how do they push the dogs to tell they are the total GSD

Number three-always a risk of kennel blindness without someone outside giving an objective critique

Something I would struggle with......


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> Number one - does the breeder have the knowledge and experience to make that call?
> 
> Number two - how do they push the dogs to tell they are the total GSD
> 
> ...


All of this. 

Number four - how great are those dogs once they are off the property and are around new things?


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Minnieski, your description fits Onyx's breeder as well, and I have to manage her the same. Because of her temperament, we can't pursue things that I would have liked to with her.


That's exactly the problem.  He's a great boy, but he'll always have to be carefully managed.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I don't like labels. There are breeders I would buy from or send people to and there are those who I won't. From your description, this breeder is most likely the latter. 

What has the breeder done to test the dogs' nerves, character, drives and working ability? What is their experience? How well do they know the dogs behind their two dogs? How much research have they done other than allowing their two pets to make puppies? Why are they breeding dogs without papers? 

What type of socializing have they done with the puppies? How much experience do they have with puppies and evaluating puppies so they can get them into the right homes? How are they screening their buyers to make sure these cheap pups don't end up in rescue or back with their breeder? 

I would ask this of all breeders, btw.

Do I know the sire and dam of the puppies? Have I seen them work and not just hanging around the house in a familiar environment? How well do I know their background/pedigree and possibly their littermates and other relatives? Can I test the puppies and spend time with the litter? 

I am picky.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> You have two, nicely bred dogs. Both dogs have decent drive, stable nerves and everything it takes to be a great Shepherd.
> Decent confirmation, have all up to date shots and are OFA'ed.
> 
> The only thing they don't have are titles, however the breeder knows enough about dogs to determine that both dogs have what it takes to be great breeding stock.
> ...


If I agreed to the term BYB, then yes, they would be, however, that does not make them bad people and they might be a fine person to buy your next pet from. 

At this point in my life, if I am buying a dog, first, I am buying the dog for a purpose, and secondly, I want my money to support the people who are breeding with some type of purpose/plan for the future. I would want to support breeders who have every intention of going forward with dogs they breed.

Everyone should be breeding for health and temperament and longevity -- that is a given. But good breeders should have a picture in their minds of the ideal dog, the whole dog, the type of drive they are looking for, they type of biddiblity they are looking for, specific conformation. 

It is simply not good enough to put a well-bred dog with a well-bred bitch. You have to look at your bitch and see what she lacks and look for a stud that has that characteristic correct, and preferably is known to produce good ________. You should look into the background and see what is there healthwise, and ensure that if there is something there, the sire is clear or much better with respect to that. Understanding that perfect is in heaven. 

Titles on the dam or sire do not make the puppies smarter. If I am dealing with someone who has titled dogs, who I trust, than titles are not the end of the world for me. If I trust their assessment of their dog, I am ok with that. But if someone does not have the history, I want to see that someone else has evaluated their dog, and I would prefer that they did it themselves -- that is a personal preference. If I have training questions for this person, then I want advice from someone who has been there, done that. 

The term BYB is used for people who do little to nothing, and breed their pets, people with a number of dogs and breed them with little or no thought, all the way up to people who are pretty dog savvy, and have nice animals, titles, health screenings, but lack in some way -- maybe they only want one litter and then will be done -- they are not breeding for the future. I think the vast majority of BYBs LOVE their dogs and take good care of them in general. 

If someone needs to buy a dog for less, they can go to one of these breeders. And if they visit the breeder, and the breeding animals are good ambassadors of the breed, and the conditions the dogs are kept in are good, and they have some ducks in a row, than I would not fault them for buying from them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> Number one - does the breeder have the knowledge and experience to make that call?
> 
> Number two - how do they push the dogs to tell they are the total GSD
> 
> ...


I agree with you, but, I think that while there is always the risk of kennel blindness, there is also always the risk of people getting a title on a less than stellar dog from a less than stellar judge. 

I think that titles tell you stuff like the owner of the dog cared enough to title their dog, that the dog can function enough to manage in a show environment. But if it was important that a pup have a specific temperament for a specific purpose, I do not think I would rely on a title anyway.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If you need to see titles on a dog to know that the dog's genetics are good....you shouldn't be breeding. You take the titled dog with bad genetics and I'll take the untitled dog with strong genetics and i will have better representations of the breed every time. Lot of you don't like seeing that because titles have become more important than blood. Truthfully, I don't even look at the level of the titles anymore, because 1) the dog can't pass the title or the training, 2) the genetics are going to pass in the sperm. 
That's not to say that titles are bad, they show that the dog was trainable, but they tell nothing about what is going to pass genetically. Sorry, breeding is really not about tiltes, that's why countries like Sweden that don't require titles to breed have some of the best German Shepherds in the world. Again, not saying titles are bad!!!, but they aren't the crux to breeding, except for high end BYB.JMO


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> You have two, nicely bred dogs. Both dogs have decent drive, stable nerves and everything it takes to be a great Shepherd.
> Decent confirmation, have all up to date shots and are OFA'ed.
> 
> The only thing they don't have are titles, however the breeder knows enough about dogs to determine that both dogs have what it takes to be great breeding stock.
> ...


Nope, they're not all bad.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Absolutely 100% agree with you Cliff! Well stated.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and when the buyer has questions or runs into a problem then that byb won't be able to help them , blind leading the blind. They won't be current on issues of feeding or vaccinations , or training or development , behavioural or physical. You won't have a cheering section that appreciates your accomplishments . That service is part of what you are paying for. 
Having a decent pedigree (each partner) still does not make for a compatible match.
Carmen


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> If you need to see titles on a dog to know that the dog's genetics are good....you shouldn't be breeding. You take the titled dog with bad genetics and I'll take the untitled dog with strong genetics and i will have better representations of the breed every time. Lot of you don't like seeing that because titles have become more important than blood. Truthfully, I don't even look at the level of the titles anymore, because 1) the dog can't pass the title or the training, 2) the genetics are going to pass in the sperm.
> That's not to say that titles are bad, they show that the dog was trainable, but they tell nothing about what is going to pass genetically. Sorry, breeding is really not about tiltes, that's why countries like Sweden that don't require titles to breed have some of the best German Shepherds in the world. Again, not saying titles are bad!!!, but they aren't the crux to breeding, except for high end BYB.JMO


I agree with what you are saying, but if the breeder does not have anything else -- other accomplishments with their dogs, than, titling the dogs gives him a starting place. It does not guarantee a wonderful puppy. It does not guarantee a sufficient puppy. But if I know NOTHING about a breeder but that he breeds German Shepherd Dogs, I'm not going to buy from him. A breeder who has done something. Who has a history of titling dogs, who has a reputation for producing dogs that were later titled or used as working dogs, then you have something to go on. 

If you can look at a seven or eight week old puppy and feel confident that the pup will be all you want and need, that is kool, but I am going to try to stack the deck at least somewhat. Seeing a dam who has puppies, and a picture of a dog they say is the sire, well, you really cannot gage much of their temperament that way.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> If you need to see titles on a dog to know that the dog's genetics are good....you shouldn't be breeding. You take the titled dog with bad genetics and I'll take the untitled dog with strong genetics and i will have better representations of the breed every time. Lot of you don't like seeing that because titles have become more important than blood. Truthfully, I don't even look at the level of the titles anymore, because 1) the dog can't pass the title or the training, 2) the genetics are going to pass in the sperm.
> That's not to say that titles are bad, they show that the dog was trainable, but they tell nothing about what is going to pass genetically. Sorry, breeding is really not about tiltes, that's why countries like Sweden that don't require titles to breed have some of the best German Shepherds in the world. Again, not saying titles are bad!!!, but they aren't the crux to breeding, except for high end BYB.JMO


Cliff I think you are rare. You have worked dogs. You KNOW what you are looking for and you love the breed enough to not allow yourself to be blinded. Most people selling untitled dogs have never worked a dog. They don't know how to take great 2 dogs and match them to improve on each dogs weaknesses.

As a buyer who does not know that much I like to see titles on breeding dogs. I like proof that the dog is what the breeder says they are. Some breeders I would give a pass because I have been watching what they produce for a while, but those breeders are still working their dogs.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

No. I don't think that all BYB's are bad. But - that depends on what you mean by "bad".


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

GSD_Xander said:


> No. I don't think that all BYB's are bad. But - that depends on what you mean by "bad".


also depends on what you mean by 'BYB'.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I don't know that Cliff is rare...definitely in the minority of the population that are dog savvy. I think it boils down to knowledge and experience.

I've been in the dogworld (excluding 'pet' experience) over 30 years. In the 80's when drug dogs were just coming on to the scene to the general public I co-owned a canine drug detection business with a retired police chief. I have trained/certified drug dogs, worked with k-9 officers and the DEA, I have shown and titled 'champions' in the confirmation ring, yet I have never put a working title on a dog...not because I couldn't but because it wasn't something I was interested in.

On the rare occasion I have had litters...and I mean rare as in 8-10 years apart I have never considered myself a byb because I choose not to title my dogs. Having said that I do do everything else a reputable breeder does with health testing, temperament testing, screening buyers, contracts to ensure puppies come back should they ever need to be placed, etc. 

I know of several breeders that check off everything on the list as far as titling their dogs and ofa testing and slick advertising yet they breed dogs with known temperament issues and produce dogs with all kinds of issues. THey are in it strictly for the money....yet to the outside world would appear to be reputable breeders.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I know what I like and I have a preference for certain lines. Titles aren't the be all end all for me depending on what I'm looking for /want at the time.

To make it short and to the point,,the scenerio you posted, my answer would most likely be "No". Why? there are way to many dogs to pick from out there and the scenerio you posted would just not interest me. 

They would HAVE to be really exceptional dogs for me to consider that scenerio.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> and when the buyer has questions or runs into a problem then that byb won't be able to help them , blind leading the blind. They won't be current on issues of feeding or vaccinations , or training or development , behavioural or physical. You won't have a cheering section that appreciates your accomplishments . That service is part of what you are paying for.
> Having a decent pedigree (each partner) still does not make for a compatible match.
> Carmen


What if they were but they'd simply be like Cliffson, preferring a strong genetic untitled dog over the weak titled dog? 

I'm honestly overhauling what I think was right. The possibilities in this country are unbelievable and with the AKC you have the freedom to use the entire spectrum of genetics that is out there. In Germany you can't. You have to go through with a "gekoered" dog and those dogs are not the high end, most of the time. 
You don't have that wide spectrum. Over here, you can take a true working dog (military, police, sar) and as long as they are AKC registered, you even get papers. 
However, if you look at what the "Forum" thinks, you are a BYB as soon as you don't have titled dogs.

What if the breeder is current on everything that is going on but simply doesn't care. 
There are so many tests for working dogs out there that determine whether or not a dog is suitable of doing a job. It's really not that hard to test an untitled dog for a job and what he's got to do. A title only means that he's gone through a series of tests and you don't have to title a dog to put him through that test. 

I am just trying to keep an open mind and get a wider perspective of what is truly possible over here. If you have the knowledge, why not. I don't even want to know how much potential went down the drain just because the dog wasn't titled or from a different country or a working dog....


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Go easy there! You'll be labeled a nasty ol 'BYB' if you're not careful. Just thinkin those thoughts will get you on a 'Black List' here.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I think a working dog such as SAR, K9, military, etc.. like you mention replaces a title.

I don't care if you have titles. If your dogs aren't sound, I wouldn't consider you a good breeder.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

lhczth said:


> I don't like labels. There are breeders I would buy from or send people to and there are those who I won't. From your description, this breeder is most likely the latter.
> 
> What has the breeder done to test the dogs' nerves, character, drives and working ability? What is their experience? How well do they know the dogs behind their two dogs? How much research have they done other than allowing their two pets to make puppies? Why are they breeding dogs without papers?
> 
> ...


I like this. And would ask for help from people who know more about the bloodlines, etc, generations back, if I were going to be purchasing a puppy. The target for puppies like this is probably not someone who asks these questions or asks people who know more though. The target is probably someone who thinks they are getting more than they are from someone who is able to sell it.

Another thing that gets me - do they just have certifications that are like day classes in things like herding, therapy, SAR, detection or are the dogs actually doing those things? I've been in classes with people just getting the therapy certification because when I ask where they go with their dogs they tell me it's just for the cert. I've seen the same with detection. Take a class, get a cert, but never do the work. Well, the work is what you would want to see, I would think. 

I can get a fully vetted, known dog for $300. Or a puppy with lots of questions who needs vacs, de-wormed, etc, and all the first year costs for $600. I'll keep the sleep and get the dog!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I am just trying to keep an open mind and get a wider perspective of what is truly possible over here. If you have the knowledge, why not. I don't even want to know how much potential went down the drain just because the dog wasn't titled or from a different country or a working dog....


I don't think it's a matter of people in the US not titling and therefore not breeding dogs with potential. The reason titles and such are stressed on this forum is because they are LOTS of people breeding their dogs because they "have lots of potential" and the "breeder" doesn't need to prove it to anyone with silly paperwork.

Most likely, the people with the best representatives of the GSD are out there working their dogs and not saying they don't need titles. They do it simply because that is what they enjoy and how they knew where to find "potential". Putting two dogs together for pets is done is the US hundreds of times each day because the dogs have potential according to their owner that just knows their dogs are special. We don't need more pets. We need more stable temperaments and responsible breeders regardless of the paperwork.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> Go easy there! You'll be labeled a nasty ol 'BYB' if you're not careful. Just thinkin those thoughts will get you on a 'Black List' here.


Then go ahead and put me on there. 

Look at the RSV 2000 they are implementing a totally new system, even accept dogs without FCI/VDH papers (as long as they go through the process), and you don't necessarily have to have a titled dog to breed as long as the other requirements are met. From what I see, the DNA Profile and The Talent Test is more important than a title and they are right, you don't need a title to determine if a dog is breed worthy or not. I am actually starting to like their system, let's hope they go through with it, it has a lot of potential.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Then go ahead and put me on there.
> 
> Look at the RSV 2000 they are implementing a totally new system, even accept dogs without FCI/VDH papers (as long as they go through the process), and you don't necessarily have to have a titled dog to breed as long as the other requirements are met. From what I see, the DNA Profile and The Talent Test is more important than a title and they are right, you don't need a title to determine if a dog is breed worthy or not. I am actually starting to like their system, let's hope they go through with it, it has a lot of potential.


did you not pick up on my sarcasm? I'm not gonna put you anywhere.....I'm not one of the hypocrital ones. If it's a good dog, it's a good dog.......period.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> did you not pick up on my sarcasm? I'm not gonna put you anywhere.....I'm not one of the hypocrital ones. If it's a good dog, it's a good dog.......period.


I did. That is why I put that big grinning smiley behind it.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

I will just throw something else into the mix that I have seen within this forum as well. I have seen a few threads recently that decry "what has become of titles" such as SchH. I think that's another angle that some people with more experience would want to look at. It's great to have a title on a dog, but is a title in SchH that some people think isn't "earned" really worth it, in terms of what that dog can pass on. If it's possible to title a dog that doesn't really have "it", whatever your definition is, does that make that dog more breedworthy?
Just throwing another wrinkle out there.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> You have two, nicely bred dogs. Both dogs have decent drive, stable nerves and everything it takes to be a great Shepherd.
> Decent confirmation, have all up to date shots and are OFA'ed.
> 
> The only thing they don't have are titles, however the breeder knows enough about dogs to determine that both dogs have what it takes to be great breeding stock.
> ...


Just OFA'd? How many generations can you go back, that I can confirm, to look at other common health issues? Early bloat in the lines? Eye issues that are inherited? Heritable things that aren't minor for the dog or owner?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

With that wrinkle, many breeders don't work their dogs in venues, buy them titled for breeding stock and rest on those titles or the pedigree's titles as their brags. They may not even know if they have mixed lines, showlines or working lines. 
How do they really know what the dog is made of, if they aren't actually watching the dog work, think, problem solve, see the work ethic, etc. 
That is why I'd rather support a breeder that is doing something with their dogs and the progeny the dogs have produced is representing in venues as well.
Many breeders out there, we all have a choice on who to buy from. Unfortunately people who do no research will choose the cheaper dogs and possibly find them on a google search, keeping these type breeders in business.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

CassandGunnar said:


> I will just throw something else into the mix that I have seen within this forum as well. I have seen a few threads recently that decry "what has become of titles" such as SchH. I think that's another angle that some people with more experience would want to look at. It's great to have a title on a dog, but is a title in SchH that some people think isn't "earned" really worth it, in terms of what that dog can pass on.* If it's possible to title a dog that doesn't really have "it", whatever your definition is, does that make that dog more breedworthy?*
> *Just throwing another wrinkle out there*.


Dang fine wrinkle too brutha, somethin to think about for sure. Does the thickness of your wallet determine the breedworthiness of your dog? I wonder.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Just OFA'd? How many generations can you go back, that I can confirm, to look at other common health issues? Early bloat in the lines? Eye issues that are inherited? Heritable things that aren't minor for the dog or owner?


All of them. Let's say they have very nice looking working dog papers. One of them full with WUSV Dog Material and SchH3 the other one has a mix of HGH and SchH.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

RazinKain said:


> Dang fine wrinkle too brutha, somethin to think about for sure. Does the thickness of your wallet determine the breedworthiness of your dog? I wonder.


Yep, especially if they "see ya comin' down the road".


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> With that wrinkle, many breeders don't work their dogs in venues, buy them titled for breeding stock and rest on those titles or the pedigree's titles as their brags. They may not even know if they have mixed lines, showlines or working lines.
> How do they really know what the dog is made of, if they aren't actually watching the dog work, think, problem solve, see the work ethic, etc.
> That is why I'd rather support a breeder that is doing something with their dogs and the progeny the dogs have produced is representing in venues as well.
> Many breeders out there, we all have a choice on who to buy from. Unfortunately people who do no research will choose the cheaper dogs and possibly find them on a google search, keeping these type breeders in business.



There is actually a very expensive breeder right in my neighborhood that sells unregistered puppies for over a thousand dollars. He, personally, hasn't titled a single dog himself. He gives them away to be titled and shown and pays exceptional money for that.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ok, I will ask maybe a dumb question,, Who would be buying these puppies ? 
What will people "do" with these puppies that can't be registered? (you said no papers in your original scenerio) Just curious.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

sagelfn said:


> I think a working dog such as SAR, K9, military, etc.. like you mention replaces a title.
> 
> I don't care if you have titles. If your dogs aren't sound, I wouldn't consider you a good breeder.


I would say IF the right person still looks at the dog and the pedigree and knows it well.

I very much had that struggle with Grim until the vet came out and said "I can't find a sperm in there" ........ I had someone who wanted to breed to him and it could have been a very nice litter. She has a lot of experience with working dogs and is a breeder herself. ......But I have had a few police officers tell me that he "had it" and they could tell, but he just has not been pushed for me to see him fight.....But I could not make that call about my own dog because I do not have the experience working bite dogs to know. Now for scentwork I think I could trump a whole lot of schutzhund folks.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Ok, I will ask maybe a dumb question,, Who would be buying these puppies ?
> What will people "do" with these puppies that can't be registered? (you said no papers in your original scenerio) Just curious.


no papers/or possibly AKC papers

That was my scenario. 

Pretty much everybody who is interested in a dog and would go through the sellers "evaluation".


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

What would there be a 'purpose' of the breeding? other than genetics? good pedigree?


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> I would say IF the right person still looks at the dog and the pedigree and knows it well.
> 
> I very much had that struggle with Grim until the vet came out and said "I can't find a sperm in there" ........ I had someone who wanted to breed to him and it could have been a very nice litter. She has a lot of experience with working dogs and is a breeder herself. ......But I have had a few police officers tell me that he "had it" and they could tell, but he just has not been pushed for me to see him fight.....But I could not make that call about my own dog because I do not have the experience working bite dogs to know. Now for scentwork *I think I could trump a whole lot of schutzhund folks*.


I would absolutely love to get Kain involved in Schutzhund (no titles required, just for the training) but it's a 4 hour round trip to the nearest club. It just is not feesible for me. He's got it in him, he's a great intelligent and driven dog, but it just isn't feesible. Does this make him any less breedworthy? Any less a GSD? What say the sheeples?

*Sheeple* (a portmanteau of "sheep" and "people") is a term of disparagement, in which people are likened to sheep.
The term is often used to denote persons who voluntarily acquiesce to a perceived authority figure's suggestion without critical analysis or sufficient research to understand the ramifications of that decision. By doing so, Sheeple undermine their own individuality and may willingly give up their rights. The implication of the term is that people fallaciously appeal to authority and believe or do what they are told by perceived authority figures who they view as trustworthy. The term is generally used in a political, social, and sometimes spiritual sense.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> What would there be a 'purpose' of the breeding? other than genetics? good pedigree?


Genetics. Simply genetics and that the breeder produces good working dogs. And working dogs don't need papers to be worked with all they have to do is to pass the "workability" test.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

But here is my question - if my breeder isn't doing anything with their dogs...why should I? There's no buy in at the top, it's poo-poo'd and politic'd and reason, excuse, whatever...why would I want to do stuff that's so stupid? So then who or why would anyone want to work these dogs ever if there is no point to it? (honest question - curious)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am actually wondering. The military working dog kennel, do those dogs actually get papers that are bred within their facility? If not, wouldn't they have to be labeled as BYB's too? It's the same concept. I doubt they are out there, titling their stock so they can get papers.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> But here is my question - if my breeder isn't doing anything with their dogs...why should I? There's no buy in at the top, it's poo-poo'd and politic'd and reason, excuse, whatever...why would I want to do stuff that's so stupid? So then who or why would anyone want to work these dogs ever if there is no point to it? (honest question - curious)


Let's say they do things with their dogs. Let's say both parents have papers but the pups won't because a: they are not AKC registered and b: it doesn't matter to the breeder. 

Let's say the breeder is working his dogs in a working dog venue but doesn't have titles or papers but the dogs are working dogs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Not just on paper - where can I go watch these dogs do their jobs? Their sport? Because I'm not getting that idea...

ETA - it's like intramurals vs. varsity sports to me


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Not just on paper - where can I go watch these dogs do their jobs? Their sport?


Pretty much whenever you want, but that is going way into detail. 

All I want is some discussion material whether or not somebody, that is breeding without papers and titles would be a bad breeder because they more I think about what is going on within the SV, within the AKC, they more I'd actually think that some of the so called BYB's aren't actually BYB's at all and that you can breed good dogs outside all those messed up organizations that care more about the money than about the breed itself. 

There are so many tests out there and you can have your dogs OFA'ed on your own. 

Heck, you can even keep track of their pedigrees on your own...


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> I would absolutely love to get Kain involved in Schutzhund (no titles required, just for the training) but it's a 4 hour round trip to the nearest club. It just is not feesible for me. He's got it in him, he's a great intelligent and driven dog, but it just isn't feesible. Does this make him any less breedworthy? Any less a GSD? What say the sheeples?


What a childish offensive way to insult people who disagree with you.

As a stud he has nothing to offer other than your opinion of him being an exceptional dog. Do you have a reputation of being a good judge of dogs to back up that opinion?

Maybe he's a great GSD but it doesn't mean he's worthy of breeding.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Personally speaking, I couldn't care less about papers. Unless you are wanting to show in comformation, you can IPL/PAL the dog for all other activities, and many sports outside of AKC don't require papers of any kind at all. Unfortunately, to get a PAL you have to alter the dog, and some may balk at that entirely or others, like me, don't want to alter a puppy.

I don't consider papers vs no papers the end all be all to whether a breeder is a BYB, but IMHO if the dogs have what it takes, the breeder should be able to back that up, especially since Sch doesn't require papers.. Unless someone knows the breeder and dogs personally, they have no real way of judging whether the dogs have what it takes given that the dogs don't have any titles or the training to demonstrate what they're capable of. So all you have to go off is the breeders word, and that doesn't mean much to working buyers when the market has plently of other working breeders to go to.

Personally speaking, I think the term BYB gets thrown around a lot, so I don't generally use the label.

Is this because you can't get the papers for your dog from your parents?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

How do you know the pedigree though? How do you know the dog isn't a fluke?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would not buy a dog without papers at least AKC, and certainly an AKC registratable dog. 

Couple of reasons: Why does the dog NOT have the papers. Someone somewhere messed up on the paperwork. Maybe the breeder was suspended indefinitely from the AKC. Maybe someone sold a dog on a limited registration. it is unethical to breed a dog on a limited registration. I would get one from a rescue or pound, but I would not pay a breeder for a dog without papers. 

And anyone who sells dogs or encourages the selling of dogs on a limited registration, should be against ever purchasing a dog without registration from the person who bred the dog. Somebody, somewhere was unethical. Either they bred a dog that they got as a rescue or from a pound, possibly from unknown parentage, or they did not choose to get papers with the dog, or they were suspended or got the dog from someone who was suspended. Sorry. I won't support that.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Minnieski said:


> That's exactly the problem.  He's a great boy, but he'll always have to be carefully managed.


How can he be 'great' if he will always have to be carefully managed?

As for the OP's question: Are all BYBs bad breeders? Now that takes sweeping generalizations to a new level.

The answer is: Not likely. Surely there are BYBs who have knowledge and love of the breed and, although they 
are small scale, they could be extremely careful, studious and selective of their backyard breedings.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Is this because you can't get the papers for your dog from your parents?


nah, has nothing to do with that. Breeding for me is off the table right now. 
There is a discussion about Fero/Mink going on another forum (german) and that brought up the genetics issue and that in Germany you just don't have the wide spectrum because of all the limitations and everybody goes to the same studs over and over and over again, which doesn't help the gene-pool so I was wondering why somebody, who uses untitled dogs, just to broaden the genepool, would be considered a BYB. 

If you breed with the mother organization, you won't get pink papers if the dog isn't gekoered. If they are not AKC registered, they won't get AKC papers either. 

We are so blinded by all the titles that we completely forget about the dog itself. Just because a dog won the world-championship doesn't make him a good stud. 




> I would not buy a dog without papers at least AKC, and certainly an AKC registratable dog.
> 
> Couple of reasons: Why does the dog NOT have the papers. Someone somewhere messed up on the paperwork. Maybe the breeder was suspended indefinitely from the AKC. Maybe someone sold a dog on a limited registration. it is unethical to breed a dog on a limited registration. I would get one from a rescue or pound, but I would not pay a breeder for a dog without papers.
> 
> And anyone who sells dogs or encourages the selling of dogs on a limited registration, should be against ever purchasing a dog without registration from the person who bred the dog. Somebody, somewhere was unethical. Either they bred a dog that they got as a rescue or from a pound, possibly from unknown parentage, or they did not choose to get papers with the dog, or they were suspended or got the dog from someone who was suspended. Sorry. I won't support that.


Or maybe the dogs are not AKC registered and with a different organization. The parents are AKC registrable but if I got that right, the pups wouldn't be since the parents weren't in the AKC.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't having papers and being titled two separate things? It seems to me that you are talking about them as the same thing.

Too many Americans already think that simply having registration papers makes their dog special.

Again, I could be misunderstanding because I don't spend a lot of time in the breeding world.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't having papers and being titled two separate things? It seems to me that you are talking about them as the same thing.
> 
> Too many Americans already think that simply having registration papers makes their dog special.
> 
> Again, I could be misunderstanding because I don't spend a lot of time in the breeding world.


They are two separate things, however if you breed a not "gekoered" dog to another dog that isn't "gekoered" (even though they have papers) they won't get the pink papers in the mother organization. 

So if the parents have papers, but they don't have the "Koerung" they won't get pink papers, while with the AKC it doesn't matter. If the dog is registered, he gets papers whether or not he's got a title.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

RazinKain said:


> I would absolutely love to get Kain involved in Schutzhund (no titles required, just for the training) but it's a 4 hour round trip to the nearest club. It just is not feesible for me. He's got it in him, he's a great intelligent and driven dog, but it just isn't feesible. Does this make him any less breedworthy? Any less a GSD? What say the sheeples?


Ignoring the insult for a moment...

This sort of attitude is a big part of the problem. I sure wish I had that proverbial nickle for everyone who showed up at a SchH club thinking their dog "had it in him" and would be great at it, and breed worthy, and oh if they only had the time.. and all of that based on absolutely NO knowledge or experience or understanding at all. More often than not, their dog is no where near what they think it's cracked up to be. But if people who do know tell them that upon evaluating the dog, well they don't believe it. Those people are just snooty, elitest sheeple to not be able to see how incredible the dog is, or they're jealous because their titled dogs aren't nearly half as good.... :rolleyes2:

Does a title make the dog? No. Are their titled dogs who shouldn't be bred. Oh yeah. Are their untitled dogs that would make great breeding stock? Yep.

But the problem is how to separate the truly breed worthy from the not? Because someone *thinks* their dog is breedworthy? Well, maybe. Depends on where that person is coming from.

Is this someone with the knowledge, experience and understanding to make that decision? And I mean that which comes from serious involvement in dogs, working a variety of dogs in a variety of aspects. This is not something that can be learned from books or videos or internet forums or just through osmosis hanging out around dogs. It is learned hands on. Sorry, but the opinion of someone who's at best only watched from the sidelines and has never actually done it doesn't even come close to being good enough.

And then there is the question on whether that opinion of the dog is based on a true, honest, objective evaluation that isn't overly clouded by their love for their dog.

And even with that, if the dog can't be proven to have passed at least some sort of basic test administered by a qualified, objective individual then I'd still want to hear the opinions of some qualified, objective individuals about the dog. (Heck, I would even if the dog were titled.) People who also have the demonstrable expertise to be making an evaluation, and have spent enough time with the dog to know the dog, and who are truly objective with no reason to be for or against the dog or it's owner. 

If those kind of people can back up what the owner says about the quality of the dog, then title or not doesn't so much matter. But if person after person says the opposite of what the owner says, and as so often happens the owner is full of excuses about why their opinions differ, or acts like those qualified people aren't qualified, well, I wouldn't at that point put much stock into the owner's opinion any more.

There are people out there who I'd by a pup from on their word alone, titles or not. They have the depth of knowledge and experience, skill at evaluating dogs, and integrity that to me their word means more than any long list of titles. But those people are very, very, very few. There are few people who do title dogs who fit into that category. There are a whole lot of people who think they and their dogs fit into that category despite having never gone out and proven it. And unfortunately far more of that last group producing puppies than the first.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Chris. :thumbup:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

RazinKain said:


> I would absolutely love to get Kain involved in Schutzhund (no titles required, just for the training) but it's a 4 hour round trip to the nearest club. It just is not feesible for me. He's got it in him, he's a great intelligent and driven dog, but it just isn't feesible. Does this make him any less breedworthy? Any less a GSD? What say the sheeples?


No, but it makes _you_ less worthy to breed him. If he's your first or second (or third) GSD and you've never trained a dog in anything beyond basic household obedience, then you're not really qualified to judge what is and isn't a breedworthy German Shepherd. (I'm not either by the way.) Just because he's good with your family and tries to bite the meter reader doesn't make him worthy of being bred.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> ... and as long as they are AKC registered, you even get papers.


Only Back Yard Breeders think that MEANS anything. Responsible breeders know that AKC papers mean NOTHING. Sure, they prove the dog is the result of a mating of two purebred dogs of the same breed. But other than that they prove nothing - they don't prove health, they don't prove temperament, they don't prove working ability. NOTHING.

If you had at LEAST 10 years experience *BREEDING *(not just "in the breed"), had *DEMONSTRATED *your breeding knowledge by producing proven dogs (either by getting titles on them or having them actively working as a Police or Military dog) and had a valid reason why you were NOT going to put titles on the dog (let's say the dog lost an eye as a young pup) - only then would I even CONSIDER the breeding.

I'll give you a 'for instance'. Let's say Chris Wild, from this board, had a young male from her own breeding that she was working towards his titles. He was from a litter that was well thought out, planned from the beginning to produce specific qualities (not quantities). Let's say the unthinkable happens and that young dog is injured in such a way that in order to save his life she has to have his leg amputated.

Chris knows this young male has TONS of potential because she had been working him - with her club - at different locations and under different decoys and the dog was rock solid. She had other people, people SHE respects, evaluate the dog in person and they say he would be a great benefit to the breed. And he had all his health clearances.

Under *ALL *those circumstances, and only under ALL those circumstances, would I feel comfortable purchasing a puppy from that breeding.

And, knowing the type of breeder Chris is, I'm pretty sure she would have one litter to start and wait until those pups were older and proving themselves before she determined if it would be wise to use the stud again.

Do titles make the dog? No, certainly not. A dog can be trained to complete a title and titles can be bought.

But titles ARE one possible way to PROVE the dog has specific qualities.

If Joe Smith had been breeding Labs for 20 years and the majority of the dogs he produced were either in very active hunting homes or working as scent detection dogs - I wouldn't care if his dogs had no titles. He found other ways to PROVE the dogs were worthy of being bred.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I could see the argument about widening the gene pool but.......are you going to get that from BYB who want to put together whatever sounds cool or is common?

I think some could perhaps argue they are preserving some old lines that are not in fashion at the moment and may have some interesting and unique pedigrees .. I imagnine that is why the influx of Czech dogs was/is so interesting- they were an isolated gene pool for awhile and I think maybe some have tail lines going back a bit differently (oh how little do I know though? just learning some of all that)

Anyway - so maybe there are some gems out there in some back yards that would be great to scour for and preserve, but I would lay a dime to a dollar that most of it is folks trying to bring in the more popular dogs whose genetics are already being perpetuated in a more systematic and careful fashion by serious breeders who actually understand how pedigrees work.

--- sorry I had an epiphany last night about the y chromosome on the male dogs basically only being modified by mutation over time where the x is more mix and match because there is one x per sire and two x per dam. Oh sillly me. No wonder we should put more emphasis on the right females due to the diversity they carry! Duh. _At least I am not making breeding decisions but more who know less about this than I sure do._


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> If Joe Smith had been breeding Labs for 20 years and the majority of the dogs he produced were either in very active hunting homes or working as scent detection dogs - I wouldn't care if his dogs had no titles. He found other ways to PROVE the dogs were worthy of being bred.


And that is my point, as long as the dogs have proven themselves they shouldn't be labeled as a BYB dog just because they don't have titles...




> Only Back Yard Breeders think that MEANS anything. Responsible breeders know that AKC papers mean NOTHING. Sure, they prove the dog is the result of a mating of two purebred dogs of the same breed. But other than that they prove nothing - they don't prove health, they don't prove temperament, they don't prove working ability. NOTHING.


I know that. However, it gives you flexibility. If you see a nice SAR dog, that has everything it takes and he'd make a great match to your bitch, you could mate them and get papers. 
If you'd have that injured dog case, you could do it and get papers. 
With the mother organization you can't. But with the AKC you can. It's your choice and gives you self-responsibility. You are responsible of what you do with the breed and how you breed. 
You make it mean something or you don't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So how does that work? How do you title a dog without papers. Oh, I know how in the AKC, you get a PAL number, only the dog must be altered, so no one is trying to breed it because it has a title. 

I am sorry, maybe AKC paperwork means nothing. I think it means a number of things, more about the breeder than the dog though. would you buy a dog from a breeder who had unethical practices? If you will, then just go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. 

So you have two AKC registratable dogs, and you want to breed them. Why not register them??? 

If the dog is from an accepted foreign registry, then you pay $40 for DNA and $50 for the registration application, send the proper papers in, and they send back your AKC registration. It is not that hard. 

If they have AKC registration applications, what does it cost 20? Something like that if you are not buying special packages. 

What do you get in return? Well, as sure as you can be without breeding the dog yourself, you will know who the sire and dam are. You do not have to rely on a shady individual (shady because he did not bother to get the dog registered for some reason) to tell you who the sire and dam are. 

Lineage is important. If you think it is not, than don't breed dogs. The AKC is what we have in the US, it is an all breed registry, it is not specialized to GSDs like the SV. But that does not mean that it is not the place to start. If you cannot prove your dog's ancestry, you have no business breeding the dog. And without proper paperwork, you cannot prove it. It does not make the dog breed-worthy, but without a registered pedigree from a proper kennel club -- AKC, SV, Canadian Kennel Club, and the other kennel clubs from each country -- without registration, the dog cannot be breed-worthy. 

Breeding dogs is more than just how hard the dog bites, and how strong his nerves are. If you do not know what is behind your dog, how can you possibly breed for characteristics and health and away from faults and genetic problems. There are things I might take a breeders word for, but not the dog's pedigree.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I could see the argument about widening the gene pool but.......are you going to get that from BYB who want to put together whatever sounds cool or is common?
> 
> I think some could perhaps argue they are preserving some old lines that are not in fashion at the moment and may have some interesting and unique pedigrees .. I imagnine that is why the influx of Czech dogs was/is so interesting- they were an isolated gene pool for awhile and I think maybe some have tail lines going back a bit differently (oh how little do I know though? just learning some of all that)
> 
> ...


No, you don't want to go to a general BYB but my point is that some people jump to conclusions to quickly and that some breeders are labeled as a BYB without knowing the full story or what is behind it. 

If there isn't enough information on the internet, it has got to be a BYB. I know, I'm guilty of it but sometimes people assume too quickly without asking questions, label and burn a breeder just because of something they don't understand even though those pups are better kept than some of the reputable breeders pups.

And yes, the bitch is just as important as the stud. But haven't you heard? It's always the stud that passes on the good stuff and always the bitch that is responsible if the pups don't turn out as they should (irony)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Somebody made the comment that I am rare...I'm not rare, I've just been fortunate enough to have worked and seen dogs in enough environments to know when the closeminded people are full of stuff. A good breeder to me requires knowledge and understanding of the breed and knowledge and understanding of the bloodlines. The knowledge is gained through different communications and the understanding comes from experiences. If a breeder has those things they have the tools to be successful, if a breeder is lacking those things they are missing key components to being successful. I see so much closed mindedness in the breed these days leading to "high end BYB" in my little opinion. I see show breeders that know nothing about working traits in a working breed. I see sport breeders that think the only good genetics come from sport dogs. I see pet breeders who don't know what the structure or working abilities of this breed should be, just mixing dogs. I see title and certs experts that because their dog has these two things the dog and breeder is reputable. But the travesty of it, is all of these different subsets are so narrow minded to what their end product is, that they have lost sight of what the breed is. 
I really don't know what a BYB is in terms of definition, I do know that I think that breeders like Andaka, Wildhaus, and Carmspack, who I knew are open minded about genetics and are constantly seeking to improve their programs; whether, the dogs they need are in "their comfort zone" or requires venturing into new areas, resonates with me as the type who will keep the breed balanced and instinctive. As for the specialty breeders, you may produce well within that realm, but to me the breed is an all around dog and those type breeders are as damaging as the two papered dogs in the backyard being bred. And finally, when did the breed become so high falutin, with breeders that think this breed must be treated like a fragile vase. AGH!!! Just my opinion, and that and 75 cents won't get you a cup of coffee, so no one take it personal.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Seriously Cliff.. Everything you say :thumbup: I don't care if that makes me a sheep


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I still think objective assessment is very good idea but what makes an objective assessment?

To me, schutzhund is useless for scentwork - tracking titles at least tell me a little more but not what I need to know. 

You could argue SAR is a credible test of everything but protection (I think more nerve strength is required for search and rescue, particularly disaster, than for dogsport)

Police service work - that is where it is "real" - but there are certainly some dogs in police service work who should not be.

So how do you know? Were it not for the number of dogs winding up in rescues and another number giving the breed a bad rep I would not have so much an issue with free for all breeding schemes.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

These conversations get tiresome after awhile!

Cliff--you are rare.  Very few people out there have as much experience working dogs and as much knowledge about bloodlines as you do...especially amongst those who don't actively title their dogs. I would have no problem buying a dog from you, but because you HAVE "been there and done that." I'd be more likely to buy a dog from you than someone who has just titled and bred their first GSD, that's for sure. But REALLY...how many people out there NOT titling, yet still breeding, their dogs have your level of know-how about the breed? Not many.

So until you DO have the experience level that someone like that. Yes, it makes you a bad breeder to do so. Unless you TRULY know dogs and bloodlines from WORKING THEM_* YOURSELF*_ FOR 30 YEARS (or whatever amount of time you want to put on it)...you shouldn't do it.

And I think that actual WORKING dogs are the exception to titles. Police or SAR or military dogs who has been proven for YEARS in the field (no, not just passed a test or cert so now it's breedworthy) are also breedworthy.

Variations of this thread have been discussed a million times. If someone is going to breed even though they really probably shouldn't--they will. And come up with a ton of excuses or reasons why it's ok.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> And I think that actual WORKING dogs are the exception to titles. Police or SAR or military dogs who has been proven for YEARS in the field (no, not just passed a test or cert so now it's breedworthy) are also breedworthy.


Than what **** difference does a title make to a working dog certification. Seriously. 

Show me any breeder who titles his dog and proves to the world that that dog is breedworthy. 

The title itself is just as much prove than a working dog certification. And honestly, I value a working dog certification more than a title. Those dogs went through more and stronger tests than a sporting dog ever will and if a working dog fails at the entry test, they are washed out. 

If a sport dog doesn't seem to have what it takes, it will be trained until he's titled and gekoered. Barely any sports person washes his dog out because there are so many training methods to make a dog look real even though he's not but that very same dog would not stand a day in the real world, under real pressure and wouldn't get through an entry test of the police or military working dogs. 

Or how do you feel about the RSV 2000 tactic? Having them undergo a talent test and from there they set how many litters the dog is allowed to produce that year. Granted the progeny will be tested too but there are not necessarily titles and no prove, just the talent test, which is prove enough in itself, if it's done "for real" and not suited towards the dog so it'll pass the test just to get permission to breed litters. 

Even though a lot of people on here say you can't have experience if you haven't titled a dog yourself. I beg to differ. While this topic isn't supposed to be about myself, I have the feeling that some of the last statements were directed towards me. 

Just for the record, this topic wasn't about me, it's more about keeping the mind open and going routes that one wouldn't have gone before. While I always believed that the SV way is the only way, I am not so sure about that anymore. 

While you can corrupt the RSV system, I actually think that it has a lot of potential to be worked with. And I'd chose a real working dog over any titled dog out there.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I still think objective assessment is very good idea but what makes an objective assessment?
> 
> To me, schutzhund is useless for scentwork - tracking titles at least tell me a little more but not what I need to know.
> 
> ...


Test them to the bone, take them to places where a dog would usually show if he's got nerves or doesn't. Over here it's hard to do that because you barely can take a dog to places but it's not impossible. 

In Fulton is a busy bridge right next to the Fulton Canal. If the handler, can't walk his "out of the wazoo" titled dog over that bridge, it'll tell you more than a title ever will. 

At the Canal, is a narrow bridge, made out of cattle grid. It's so narrow that the dog either has to walk in front of you or behind you. There are some handles for people but for the dog it's open to the left and right and he can look into the water, he can look through the grid. 

Great test for a dog.

How is the dog standing up in large crowds with loud music and fireworks, canons going off?

There are so many ways to determine whether or not the dog has strong nerves and you really don't need a title to find out whether or not the dog has the nerves to do a job. 

If I walk with a dog into petco and the dog cowers because there is a voice coming out of nowhere (microphone and speakers) I doubt that dog would walk over the metal grid bridge. 

I actually believe that the Schutzhund title is outdated. Especially with all those new training methods that can make a dog look real even though it isn't and those dogs are being bred. Sometimes more than the really good ones that should be bred. 

There should be something else in place, on top of the Schutzhund title. Something like "making them go over the canal grid bridge". 
If they don't have the nerve strength, they will show it right there and then and no title can cover it up.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Justine, I'm going to tell you this...smile...I have talked and trained with NUMEROUS world class trainers/handlers...I said world class!!....I mean experience out the wahoo in working their dog and others dogs, who know squat about bloodlines, are narrowminded about any dogs but their own, and aren't interested in learning pedigrees/bloodlines, who make decisions in breeding on what they see externally or what is in demand, or who is connected to who, and because they are who they are they have reputable dogs. NOT! That's a recipe for producing dogs with Mal tendencies in German Shepherds, that often go from home to home or out back because they can't be handled. (Now there are many hobby breeders who do their home work, and there are large breeders both here and abroad that produce excellent dogs because the dogs are good and the owners have extensive knowledge of the lines.) (Oh, but they are puppy mills in some people's eyes).
The point is there is no set barometer that you can use to determine a good breeder. Labels are meaningless. You go to the encyclopedia and look up German Shepherd, read on the history and abilities of this breed, and then you go to all these breeders with their shingle out with their subset of the breed and more times than not you are disappointed. Is the encyclopedia wrong???? I didn't see workingline, showline, sportline, in the book. 
Justine, you are right, I tire too of labels, magic barometers that make good breeders, all inclusive declarative statements about what breeders should or shouldn't do. Hypocrisy!!! Breeders that set artificial standards here in the States for reputable in health,and Hips and work, then have as their stud some imported dog that was x-rayed at 13 months, has a midnight title, and never worked a dog other than what they imported, suddenly become the "Guardians " of the breed!!!Yeah Right....I tire also, but now I tire of ranting....so I'll lay back and enjoy others make me tired some more....Big smile!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Mrs. K, 
I hadn't read your last post before I finished my rant, but you are so onpoint with what you said. The type of testing you listed or the type that Carmen often talks about is far more revealing than what Sch has become. Sch now tests training ability of the club/handler as much as it tests instinctive traits of the breed. The elitest won't admit it because it undermines their sanctity, but its my honest belief. Over and Out...laughing!!(I can't help myself...I definitely have issues, when it comes to this breed...lol)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Justine, I'm going to tell you this...smile...I have talked and trained with NUMEROUS world class trainers/handlers...I said world class!!....I mean experience out the wahoo in working their dog and others dogs, who know squat about bloodlines, are narrowminded about any dogs but their own, and aren't interested in learning pedigrees/bloodlines, who make decisions in breeding on what they see externally or what is in demand, or who is connected to who, and because they are who they are they have reputable dogs. NOT! That's a recipe for producing dogs with Mal tendencies in German Shepherds, that often go from home to home or out back because they can't be handled. (Now there are many hobby breeders who do their home work, and there are large breeders both here and abroad that produce excellent dogs because the dogs are good and the owners have extensive knowledge of the lines.) (Oh, but they are puppy mills in some people's eyes).
> The point is there is no set barometer that you can use to determine a good breeder. Labels are meaningless. You go to the encyclopedia and look up German Shepherd, read on the history and abilities of this breed, and then you go to all these breeders with their shingle out with their subset of the breed and more times than not you are disappointed. Is the encyclopedia wrong???? I didn't see workingline, showline, sportline, in the book.
> Justine, you are right, I tire too of labels, magic barometers that make good breeders, all inclusive declarative statements about what breeders should or shouldn't do. Hypocrisy!!! Breeders that set artificial standards here in the States for reputable in health,and Hips and work, then have as their stud some imported dog that was x-rayed at 13 months, has a midnight title, and never worked a dog other than what they imported, suddenly become the "Guardians " of the breed!!!Yeah Right....I tire also, but now I tire of ranting....so I'll lay back and enjoy others make me tired some more....Big smile!!


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Mrs. K,
> I hadn't read your last post before I finished my rant, but you are so onpoint with what you said. The type of testing you listed or the type that Carmen often talks about is far more revealing than what Sch has become. Sch now tests training ability of the club/handler as much as it tests instinctive traits of the breed. The elitest won't admit it because it undermines their sanctity, but its my honest belief. Over and Out...laughing!!(I can't help myself...I definitely have issues, when it comes to this breed...lol)


I feel the same way Cliff. They would never agree to that kind of testing on top of the title because it would reveal what their dogs really are. 


And before anybody says that socialization is the cure.... it's not always that. Some dogs are socialized from puppyhood and they'll still jump when a truck is running by and that is something that you can't get out of a dog. Not if you've done it for five years and for five years the dog jumps every time the truck is running by, or when he hears music blaring out of a speaker... that's nerve and not lack of socialization.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Justine, I'm going to tell you this...smile...I have talked and trained with NUMEROUS world class trainers/handlers...I said world class!!....I mean experience out the wahoo in working their dog and others dogs, who know squat about bloodlines, are narrowminded about any dogs but their own, and aren't interested in learning pedigrees/bloodlines, who make decisions in breeding on what they see externally or what is in demand, or who is connected to who, and because they are who they are they have reputable dogs. NOT! That's a recipe for producing dogs with Mal tendencies in German Shepherds, that often go from home to home or out back because they can't be handled. (Now there are many hobby breeders who do their home work, and there are large breeders both here and abroad that produce excellent dogs because the dogs are good and the owners have extensive knowledge of the lines.) (Oh, but they are puppy mills in some people's eyes).
> The point is there is no set barometer that you can use to determine a good breeder. Labels are meaningless. You go to the encyclopedia and look up German Shepherd, read on the history and abilities of this breed, and then you go to all these breeders with their shingle out with their subset of the breed and more times than not you are disappointed. Is the encyclopedia wrong???? I didn't see workingline, showline, sportline, in the book.
> Justine, you are right, I tire too of labels, magic barometers that make good breeders, all inclusive declarative statements about what breeders should or shouldn't do. Hypocrisy!!! Breeders that set artificial standards here in the States for reputable in health,and Hips and work, then have as their stud some imported dog that was x-rayed at 13 months, has a midnight title, and never worked a dog other than what they imported, suddenly become the "Guardians " of the breed!!!Yeah Right....I tire also, but now I tire of ranting....so I'll lay back and enjoy others make me tired some more....Big smile!!


Oh, I completely agree with you. Experience and training in and on itself does not make a good breeder by any means. But at the same time...too many people on here with experience with one GSD say "who's to judge MY dog? I know MY dog is amazing! And breedworthy!" I think they see threads like this as some justification that their "protective" dog who "is good with the family" should be bred. I've seen some of those comments here in this thread (sheeples anyone?).

People have a hard time understanding the difference between THEMSELVES and someone who genuinely has a good eye and lots of knowledge and experience with the breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good point....and that is why I maintain knowledge and experience with an understanding of the uses and capabilities of the breed being so important.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Cliff, I hope you have an apprentice!! 

Mrs. K, I don't think all that bridge stuff testing you describe is sufficient. My dog will do that without a blink, he would actually pull me to that bridge because he likes adrenalin (and I do not), but I am not sure if it's an indication of breedworthiness.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> Cliff, I hope you have an apprentice!!


Some people read their Bible before the go to bed...I read my Cliff posts.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> Cliff, I hope you have an apprentice!!
> 
> Mrs. K, I don't think all that bridge stuff testing you describe is sufficient. My dog will do that without a blink, he would actually pull me to that bridge because he likes adrenalin (and I do not), but I am not sure if it's an indication of breedworthiness.


That is why you do several tests, not just that one. 
Testing a dog to the bone doesn't mean that you do one single test, it's a series of tests that puts the dog through situations where you know that a dog with weak nerves would show them. 

I know that one K9 Handler, from the German police took the dog with him and he put the dog through a series of tests, if that dog failed at the first test, he wouldn't even bother to take him to the next test. The dog went right back to the breeder and even if it was something as simple as "walking over a shiny floor".


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

mthurston0001 said:


> Some people read their Bible before the go to bed...I read my Cliff posts.


:thumbup:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have never really understood the purpose for these topics. In North America (and in many other countries) there are no rules for breeding. We are all free to breed the dogs we want using what ever means of testing that we chose. Not saying this is good or bad, it just is....... 

People have been doing specialized breeding of the GSD in NA for generations. What is to stop anyone from breeding their SAR dogs or their detection dogs, their PPD, their PSD, their conformation dogs, their rally dogs and their agility dogs or even just their nice family pet? One can breed their unregistered nerve bag just as easily as, well actually more easily, than the people who go the whole nine yards and follow the SV rules. We have this freedom. If one needs justification or approval to do a breeding from others or from strangers on a message board than maybe they should seriously be looking harder at themselves and their reasons for breeding. If one is worried that what they do might get them labeled a BYB, well then........., think about it........


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I have never really understood the purpose for these topics. In North America (and in many other countries) there are no rules for breeding. We are all free to breed the dogs we want using what ever means of testing that we chose. Not saying this is good or bad, it just is.......
> 
> People have been doing specialized breeding of the GSD in NA for generations. What is to stop anyone from breeding their SAR dogs or their detection dogs, their PPD, their PSD, their conformation dogs, their rally dogs and their agility dogs or even just their nice family pet? One can breed their unregistered nerve bag just as easily as, well actually more easily, than the people who go the whole nine yards and follow the SV rules. We have this freedom. If one needs justification or approval to do a breeding from others or from strangers on a message board than maybe they should seriously be looking harder at themselves and their reasons for breeding. If one is worried that what they do might get them labeled a BYB, well then........., think about it........


Just for the record, I was looking for a discussion and that is all there is to it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Oh, I completely agree with you. Experience and training in and on itself does not make a good breeder by any means. But at the same time...too many people on here with experience with one GSD say "who's to judge MY dog? I know MY dog is amazing! And breedworthy!" I think they see threads like this as some justification that their "protective" dog who "is good with the family" should be bred. I've seen some of those comments here in this thread (sheeples anyone?).
> 
> People have a hard time understanding the difference between THEMSELVES and someone who genuinely has a good eye and lots of knowledge and experience with the breed.


How could you see a topic like that as justification to breed a nervy dog? 

We all know that this topic is most definitely not about breeding one nervbag to another, it's about using potential and the entire gene-pool that is out there and even if it means to breed an untitled dog for his genes. 

What I am trying to do is to keep an open mind and get away from the narrow minded thinking... if somebody is using this topic to justify bad breeding that's on them, not on me.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sorry, but the way you set up your scenario, it sounds to me like someone is looking for justification for breeding dogs that have not been proven breed worthy. The feeling I got from it is the same feeling that GSDElsa is talking about. 

It is pet-quality breeding of pet dogs, cost and papers notwithstanding. If the breeder did have the extensive knowledge and experience of years and years and years of training, titling, breeding, analyzing pedigrees so that they could look at two dogs and say, "Yes, these dogs are breedworthy, and can produce working dogs", then that knowledge and experience comes through in how they talk about the dogs they have and why they feel the dogs will make good working prospect, over and above saying things like: the dog come from good lines (just about every one one on this forum that has a pedigreed dog will say that their dog is from good lines - maybe they do, but does that alone make the dogs breed worthy?), and that the pups will grow up with an assortment of agility equipment to play in.

I also say, that if your dog has never surprised you in how they react to a new situation, then they have NOT been tested enough. Testing, either formal or informal, is to discover information about the dog, either good or bad. If your test do not produce this, then what is it telling you? Nothing.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Sorry, but the way you set up your scenario, it sounds to me like someone is looking for justification for breeding dogs that have not been proven breed worthy. The feeling I got from it is the same feeling that GSDElsa is talking about.
> 
> It is pet-quality breeding of pet dogs, cost and papers notwithstanding. If the breeder did have the extensive knowledge and experience of years and years and years of training, titling, breeding, analyzing pedigrees so that they could look at two dogs and say, "Yes, these dogs are breedworthy, and can produce working dogs", then that knowledge and experience comes through in how they talk about the dogs they have and why they feel the dogs will make good working prospect, over and above saying things like: the dog come from good lines (just about every one one on this forum that has a pedigreed dog will say that their dog is from good lines - maybe they do, but does that alone make the dogs breed worthy?), and that the pups will grow up with an assortment of agility equipment to play in.
> 
> I also say, that if your dog has never surprised you in how they react to a new situation, then they have NOT been tested enough. Testing, either formal or informal, is to discover information about the dog, either good or bad. If your test do not produce this, then what is it telling you? Nothing.


Exactly, but do we honestly have to go into every single little detail? Most of the time we see a picture. The picture shows exactly what you got from the Scenario and I am guilty of that too, I jumped on people for breeding untitled dogs. 

I bet you if somebody got on here and said he bred two of his dogs, both absolutely breedworthy, but one of them untitled, the entire forum would be on his tail for breeding an untitled dog and with that, he'd already be labeled, no questions asked, and even if he tried to explain himself, most people would already obsess over his untitled dog they wouldn't listen and completely ignore the fact that he's just as experienced as Chris, Cliff or somebody else. 

And you and nobody else can deny that I am dead on with that. 

If I wanted to breed my dogs, I have all the back-up I need to do that litter. I don't need justification from a Forum. 

And my dogs surprise me every time I go out. As a matter of fact, she surprised me today. She performed wonderfully, with all those distractions. It turned into a great test and proved that she's got a rock solid foundation and that all the training paid off and that I am actually doing something right. 

But again, this isn't about my male or female, while I was thinking about breeding and I talked a lot on this forum about it and I do believe that I have a pretty good understanding of the breed, genetics and pedigrees, I don't think I'm cut out to be a breeder. 

I think I'd have a hard time with placing pups. I'd always second guess myself if I made the right choice in picking that family over another family and I couldn't forgive myself if one of my pups had to go through the same thing Yukon did. 

There are too many great breeders out there already.


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## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

Byb is just that byb. I believe there are certain degrees of it though. From a byb who wants to make money (throws two dogs together, no health tests, maybe papers, pet lined pedigree, does not vaccinates or deworm puppies at the vet), to an oops pet litter (does not do health tests, takes puppies to vet, parents have been vaccinated, and maybe papers), to an individual who means well and is not educated on what it takes to be an optimal breeder (ofa, does health clearances, screens puppies at the vet, has a decent pedigree -which they believe is optimal, but does not title their dogs). They all essentially breed, but miss certain traits, knowledge, and passion for the breed that is needed.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> That is why you do several tests, not just that one.
> Testing a dog to the bone doesn't mean that you do one single test, it's a series of tests that puts the dog through situations where you know that a dog with weak nerves would show them.


 So what's wrong with starting with SchH? Do SchH1, then 2, then 3, then bridge test, then Petco and so on? And if the dog fails SchH1 then no need to proceed to the bridge one. What's wrong with this scenario?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> So what's wrong with starting with SchH? Do SchH1, then 2, then 3, then bridge test, then Petco and so on? And if the dog fails SchH1 then no need to proceed to the bridge one. What's wrong with this scenario?


Honestly, I'd test the nerve strength first, before I put all that money into the training. If you can determine if the dog has what it takes and the dog fails, why not washing the dog out before you put all the time and money into it. Schutzhund Training is so expensive, unless you do it for fun and sport and not for breeding, I'd test the dog before I started training in something that is that expensive. 

That is why I tested Indra and put her through as much as situations as possible when we were still in Germany. I used everything that was available. Trains, Buses, Malls, Fairs, Fireworks... Canon Shooting, Walking her over a bridge that was going over the Autobahn, trains, my Dad tested her reaction and she passed, she did go over the narrow metal-grid canal bridge in Fulton. 
She's rock solid with pretty much any situation and if she gets startled or jumps, she bounces right back. 

If I knew she had major issues, I would have never started training her for certification. 

Actually, as a matter of a fact, training a SAR dog isn't so much different than training a Schutzhund Dog. Especially when it comes to building drive, there is just a lot of people out there who don't even realize it. 

Test them like a real working dog would be tested, if they fail in every test, wash them out! But hey, you can't make money with that and some big names would be in for an unpleasant surprise and that is why it's not wanted.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RogueRed26 said:


> *Byb is just that byb*. I believe there are certain degrees of it though. From a byb who wants to make money (throws two dogs together, no health tests, maybe papers, pet lined pedigree, does not vaccinates or deworm puppies at the vet), to an oops pet litter (does not do health tests, takes puppies to vet, parents have been vaccinated, and maybe papers), to an individual who means well and is not educated on what it takes to be an optimal breeder (ofa, does health clearances, screens puppies at the vet, has a decent pedigree -which they believe is optimal, but does not title their dogs). They all essentially breed, but miss certain traits, knowledge, and passion for the breed that is needed.


So, someone who breeds dogs in the back yard?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Or, someone who breeds in the back yard -- hope the privacy fence is sufficiently private.:wild:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> Or, someone who breeds in the back yard -- hope the privacy fence is sufficiently private.:wild:


My parents bred in our backyard. We've had some kennels in the backyard, at the house in Scharhof. One litter box was in the basement and the other one outside. The Garage had an extra room in the back and that one was build out as a litter room. With a litter box and red light, sanitized floor. The pups literally grew up in our privacy fenced in backyard. 

Guess they are BYB's too.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Test them like a real working dog would be tested, if they fail in every test, wash them out!


 And if they don't, proceed with putting titles on, i.e. continue the series of tests that prove the worthiness of the dog? Because if we stop then it will all be, as always, about the money. Why spend money on that expensive SchH, SAR (and don't tell me SAR is cheap), etc if my dog has it in him (he is great in Petco and is firing fireworks with me), titles are for suckers...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yupp, I have moved up in the world. I am no longer a BYB. The stud owner has a little office where the business of breeding is conducted.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

"So what's wrong with starting with Sch first"....This is one of those statements that is so noble sounding, but is as realistic as...well figure it out. There are maybe 200 plus Sch clubs in this country. Most of them are full with say 15 members(thats generous). There are at least 50,000 German Shepherds in America. Where are they going to train??? Now there are other venues that people work their dogs in; such as Mondio, Ring, SDA, high end obedience, SAR, PSA, etc....still with these elements it comes up short of this being a realistic avenue to assess breed suitability consistently. The majority of titled dogs in this country were never titled here anyway. Before some Sch member gets all up in arms, keep in mind ALL the showline German Shepherds that are imported to this country with titles and never ever set foot on a field again. So the few dogs that are in clubs and are titled here pale in comparison to the others....so how does this help the owner to be breeder savy from a titled dog????? Nope, it doesn't.
Let me clarify something though, I have no problem with Sch as a sport test...which it has become, I just bristle when people get judgemental of others, projecting them as inferior breeders, when they don't do or have sch dogs. The link between Sch and breed suitability has long been gone or else there would be 200 dogs in the Seiger Show in Germany instead of 2000. The OP original question was "Are all BYB's bad breeders"....simple enough if you can define BYB. You can't!! As long as 80% of the titled GS in Germany are showline, and a higher percent of these dogs than should be, do not exhibit solid breedworthiness....than you can't mandate people's breeding program should have this or it is second class.
Workingline Sch people won't touch a showline dog with a ten foot pole, why???? I'll say it....because the genetics and temperament are weak and will bring down the working aspect they strive hard to maintain. There its out there...I said it!!! But....if these dogs have the same Sch titles that you say the breeder of untitled dogs should possess....then somebody is a hypocrite. Because that Sch title they push on others isn't good enough for them when its attached to a showline dog!!! C'mom folks how about Real Talk!!
So do either camp have any credibility in preaching to others???? For the people on the sideline, maybe what I'm saying makes sense, or maybe it doesn't....like Mrs. K said this topic was opened for discussion and I just like the discussion to be based on realism....there is no right or wrong in my eyes, just people who breed good representatives of the breed and they come in all venues, and people who are holding on to their niche in the breed, and they come in all venues.
I know some tire of my diatribes, but they are usually the ones that are comfortable in their specialization and don't want the hypocrisy exposed...otoh, I get many emails from others saying what I post makes sense and is more to what they see in real life than what is often sited on the forum. In the end, in my mind it is not about Cliff, but about this breed reconciling itself to becoming a working class utility dog again...that is as rugged as its noble....peace out.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> And if they don't, proceed with putting titles on, i.e. continue the series of tests that prove the worthiness of the dog? Because if we stop then it will all be, as always, about the money. Why spend money on that expensive SchH, SAR (and don't tell me SAR is cheap), etc if my dog has it in him (he is great in Petco and is firing fireworks with me), titles are for suckers...


Let's be honest. If you train a SAR Dog, you want to keep them operational. It wouldn't make any sense to put all that time and money into it, because to SAR there is more than just the dog. It's you as the handler that needs a ton of training on top of that and no team would allow somebody on the team just to get the dog certified to be able to breed the dog. 

Unless you have your own facilities, right in front of the door, it wouldn't make any sense at all. 

Whereas in Schutzhund, that is what happens a lot. The dogs are rushed through the training, titled in the SchH1 (especially the brood bitches) and then they are bred until they can't receive any litters anymore. 

The only time you ever see them on the field again is to get them the Koerung auf Lebenszeit. Other than that, no testing, no titling, nothing... there are view brood bitches active in sport and when they hit a certain age they are sold just like a piece of garbage.

And you really don't seem to understand the concept of testing a dog before he's started in training something... otherwise you wouldn't make those comments. 

If all those tests are stupid, tell me, why is the police, military or sar handlers testing the dogs before they put them through the training? 
And why don't many breeders do the same thing?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> And you really don't seem to understand the concept of testing a dog before he's started in training something... otherwise you wouldn't make those comments.


 Mrs. K, since you are so into 'discussions' then maybe you will brush up on your discussion skills? Just a friendly suggestion.

Testing a dog the way you describe it is not something separate from raising a dog and imprinting a dog for training. It is PART of training. Yes, dogs wash out. But if they don't, does it mean a breeder has to stop putting the dog thru the extensive training that may lead to titles or certs (titles are optional, the breeder may chose to skip this part) and just start breeding because the dog has it all and it's time to make puppies?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> That is why I tested Indra and put her through as much as situations as possible when we were still in Germany. I used everything that was available. Trains, Buses, Malls, Fairs, Fireworks... Canon Shooting, Walking her over a bridge that was going over the Autobahn, trains, my Dad tested her reaction and she passed, she did go over the narrow metal-grid canal bridge in Fulton.
> She's rock solid with pretty much any situation and if she gets startled or jumps, she bounces right back.


 I guess I was responding to this. You describe these tests like something so incredible that proves something. It does not prove anything. Every single of my dogs goes thru this just as part of being raised in my household, and my weak nerved dog would pass your tests with flying colors.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Cliff, I didn't say one must start with SchH. I asked what's wrong with starting with SchH? If someone can afford it, lives in the right place, and does it right as a PART in the SERIES of tests intended to give an insight into the dog, than why not? Because folks who can't afford it or are not interested in it or whatever deem the SchH titles worthless? SchH is a tool, how to use it is up to the person.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> I guess I was responding to this. You describe these tests like something so incredible that proves something. It does not prove anything. Every single of my dogs goes thru this just as part of being raised in my household, and my weak nerved dog would pass your tests with flying colors.


honestly, I doubt that a weak nerved dog would feel comfortable in a crowd of 5000+ people, singing, dancing, yelling, loud music that you need ear plugs yourself, real canons going off, fireworks cracking and people pushing the dog from one place to another because you can barely make a step forward or to the side. It's a very extreme and intense situation that barely any dog is ever going to be put through. If your weak nerved dog passes that than I'd re-consider my opinion of him being weak nerved, if I was you. 

A weak nerved dog will show his nerves in that kind of situation. Heck, even a strong nerved dog might show nerve in a situation like that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> Cliff, I didn't say one must start with SchH. I asked what's wrong with starting with SchH? If someone can afford it, lives in the right place, and does it right as a PART in the SERIES of tests intended to give an insight into the dog, than why not? Because folks who can't afford it or are not interested in it or whatever deem the SchH titles worthless? SchH is a tool, how to use it is up to the person.


It's a sport. But to get the entire picture of a dog, SchH is not enough anymore. And before I'd start training a dog, doesn't matter what it is for, I'd test the dog to the bone if he's worth the money before i start training him. You can safe yourself a lot of headaches and heartbreak as well as money if you test your dog before you train him in something. 

Once the dog passed those tests and is ready to go, nothing wrong with titling him in SchH or to get him certified in another venue.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

So can you breeders point the rest of us in the right direction? 

It sounds like we can't trust the titles and we can't trust breeders to be honest. 
Working line doesn't guarantee a stable dog and show lines don't do enough work to get the titles we can't trust anyway. 
Pet quality should mean easy to handle and train because good grief, who wants a pet with issues, but it seems to mean the breeder wasn't doing everything right or, the dog is lacking in something. 

How exactly is the normal everyday person supposed to know what they're looking at and who to trust? 

I want to buy a GSD. I want that dog Doc talks about...Jack of All Trades. Where do I find it? Can anyone answer that question without asking me what I want to do with the dog or what lines I'm interested in? I don't want part of a dog I want a whole GSD. Who's got them???


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> So can you breeders point the rest of us in the right direction?
> 
> It sounds like we can't trust the titles and we can't trust breeders to be honest.
> Working line doesn't guarantee a stable dog and show lines don't do enough work to get the titles we can't trust anyway.
> ...


I can't vouch for it but from what I see on this forum and from the venues their dogs work in, Chris Wild has them. Carmenspack has them too, Blackthorn has them too. 

Now that being said there can always be a dog that is weaker than the others. 

As for Germany, "Vom Neuenkirchener Deich" has them. I especially love their female Graffiti. They are very small but have really good, solid working dogs. 

"von der Liebenburg" kennel has them. 

Andreas Bolz and "vom Mecklenburger Bolz" kennel has them too (he's doing the DDR Dogs). 

"vom Gimpelwald" kennels, "von den Welfen", those are all kennels that have the dogs that you are looking for. Jack of all Trades. 
They all have solid dogs. 

There are a lot of honest knowledgeable breeders out there, you just have to do your research.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm sorry Oksana, I don't remember implying or saying that Sch was worthless, I meant to say that it was good for sport, but that it doesn't measure breedworthiness anymore. I thought the topic was breeding and breedworthiness of certain types of breeders. I thought I was responding to certain folks that always trot out Sch to judge whether a breeder is reputable or whether a dog is breedworthy. That's all I was saying and if I am wrong in terms of today's Sch test....I have no problem listening to explanations on the examples I cited as being misleading. I have nothing against Sch as a tool to develop a working relationship with your dog. Nothing whatsoever....I just don't think it is the tool to use to evaluate breeders like it was thirty years ago. 
I could be off base here.....Oh Well...won't be the first time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

As always it depends on what you are looking for in a dog. If you want a dog to compete with at the world schutzhund championships, better get a dog from someone who has competed. Not everyone needs a dog that will chew your leg off or rip you out of an automobile. If you want one like that, you better be willing to do more than research. You better be committed to training, exercise, and leadership. Yes, you should be committed for any dog you take home, but some dogs might need more than others.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Schutzhund is not about chewing your leg off or ripping you out of an automobile! Really...Selzer??
It is about obedience and control more than anything and courage to work thru 
pressure(if the training is right) and having a stable temperament to do the control work.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, and every well balanced working dog should be able to live a life in a normal family.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sch is not about ripping someone's leg off or pulling someone out of a car as Jane said.....but that's the level of knowledge some people have in this breed...you can only hope they're not breeders with opinions as misguided as that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> Schutzhund is not about chewing your leg off or ripping you out of an automobile! Really...Selzer??
> It is about obedience and control more than anything and courage to work thru
> pressure(if the training is right) and having a stable temperament to do the control work.


It depends on what you mean by the total dog. There are dogs out there so over the top, they have u-tubes of them pulling people out of vehicles. I never said schutzhund was like that. _Schutzhund_ after all is not a test of breed-worthiness (to many folks, or at least if it is a title a show line dog holds). Schutzhund is so sucky that our sucky show line dogs can title in it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> It depends on what you mean by the total dog. There are dogs out there so over the top, they have u-tubes of them pulling people out of vehicles. I never said schutzhund was like that. _Schutzhund_ after all is not a test of breed-worthiness (to many folks, or at least if it is a title a show line dog holds). Schutzhund is so sucky that our sucky show line dogs can title in it.


You've got a point there, Selzer.  :gsdsit:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> Sch is not about ripping someone's leg off or pulling someone out of a car as Jane said.....but that's the level of knowledge some people have in this breed...you can only hope they're not breeders with opinions as misguided as that.


If you read MY post, you would see that I did NOT say that it was what schutzhund was all about. I actually have a Schutzhund titled dog. She is a ***** cat. She is a nice little bitch out of Vegas -- ya know the double world sieger (has to be schH3) that no one around here likes because when he bites all four of his feet are not off the ground or some such nonsense. He is a show line dog that must have one of those boughten titles I guess. 

I guess the point is, I have a schutzhund dog that is a fine family pet. That was NOT what I was saying. The question was how do I get a whole dog. Well, it depends on what a whole dog is. If I had a nickel for all the calls I get for someone looking for a puppy for protection, I could repave my kennels. These people would be perfectly happy with a dog that would chew your leg off or pull someone out of a car. What is wrong with saying that if that is what you want, you better be prepared to do more than research???


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Maybe its because the breed has a tremendous POSITIVE legacy of protection work for police, military, and family. WHY wouldn't somebody expect the dog to do this when acquiring one. That makes plenty of sense....cause you may not like this aspect of the breed does not change the legacy , or the expectation of people for the breed to have these traits. 
Hey, I didn't say the showlines need more nerve, I think it was one of your supporters....you think she got this perception from ME????lol I doubt it, but the quality breeders, imo, of these lines like Huerta Hof, does not get defensive about the showlines shortcomings, but strives real hard to correct them. That I respect....and you certainly can't correct something that you refuse to acknowledge exists.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

working line people are not going to be fixing much soon then, huh?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

mthurston0001 said:


> Some people read their Bible before the go to bed...I read my Cliff posts.


+ 1


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> Maybe its because the breed has a tremendous POSITIVE legacy of protection work for police, military, and family. WHY wouldn't somebody expect the dog to do this when acquiring one. That makes plenty of sense....cause you may not like this aspect of the breed does not change the legacy , or the expectation of people for the breed to have these traits.
> Hey, I didn't say the showlines need more nerve, I think it was one of your supporters....you think she got this perception from ME????lol I doubt it, but the quality breeders, imo, of these lines like Huerta Hof, does not get defensive about the showlines shortcomings, but strives real hard to correct them. That I respect....and you certainly can't correct something that you refuse to acknowledge exists.


Look, I am not the one claiming the GSD can't protect. And I NEVER said I did not like that aspect of the breed. 

The schutzhund people are offended because they merged my schutzhund remark with my next thought about wanting a dog with super-protection/attack skills. 

That is not what Schutzhund is about -- I never said it was. 

All I said is that if someone wants one of those dogs, super-protection/attack dogs, well they better be prepared to do more than research. 

I am really only defensive about the attack on me for something that was misinterpreted.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> working line people are not going to be fixing much soon then, huh?


Not if they are in denial. 

There are issues with the working line dogs. Sacrificed confirmation to the point where the dogs get simply too long, way to big and soft ears, nervy dogs, hyperactive dogs, HD, over the top aggression that can't be handled by "normal" people, to soft dogs that have prey and prey and prey but lack aggression. 

Pretty much everything you can think off.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

My last post on this....nobody has been more critical of the sport line German Shepherd on this forum than me....I've constantly talked about temperament traits like hyperactivity, lack of instinctive traits, more drive than brains, etc. The difference is that the owners/breeders of these dogs take it like their dogs are....they consider the merits and seek more balance or disregard the criticism and let it roll off their back like their dogs. While the showline people rant about bashing, picking on the showlines, or fold up and get angry at the messenger....similar to their dogs.
I seldom see someone come on here and show me plenty of evidence that what I am posting is wrong or minimally present. Instead, they deflect the criticism by crying about about the otherside, some extreme exaggerated post of hurt or anger, or the tiresome "stop bashing the showlines. I have made a distinction many times that there is a difference between owner and breeder....and mosts of my posts are not directed to owners but rather breeders who are SUPPOSED to be stewards of the breed. But if the stewards of the breed can't see the shortcomings of the breed, if the stewards of the breed won't pursue necssary changes in the breed because it goes contrary to what they LIKE, if the stewards of the breed don't really know what a GS should be capable of and are maintaining that, if the stewards of the breed are so caught up in specialization of the most genetically diverse working breed, if the stewards of the breed don't know the breed history, understand that true structure is working structure, and if the structure you are pursuing is not optimum in working you have gone off base somewhere, if the stewards of the breed don't realize that you breed for utility first and THEN you show or sport your results, if you happen to have an exceptional candidate, but you keep the genetics BALANCED. 
If these basic tenets are not in the forefront of the stewards of the breed's mindset....then a dog will start to emerge that has very little application to what the dog was made for. 
Has this happened over the years, the stewards of the breed have to be the Judge....but one things is sure...when you put your personal feelings/likes in the direction of your breeding program OVER what the blueprint for this breed says it ought to be....YOU are a BACKYARD BREEDER, IN MY OPINION. 
IF I offended some in this post, get over yourself...this isn't directed at people this is directed at practices of breeders that have led this breed from its rightful perch as great utility dog.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

As always, Cliff, you are right on top of things. Nice post!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Cliff, I suspect that some people are leery of the 'natural protectiveness' of a good GSD b/c so often fear aggression, hyper reactivity & inappropriate aggression are confused with the natural protectiveness that _is_ desirable. Then too, some seek an excessively suspicious dog which can be a disaster in a family pet. Additionally, it's essential that naturally protective dogs are clear headed, discerning thinkers who exercise sound judgment. Too often these qualities are utterly lacking in modern GSD. People need a good understanding of protective instincts & what a solid temperament is to appreciate appropriate protection instincts.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> My last post on this....nobody has been more critical of the sport line German Shepherd on this forum than me....I've constantly talked about temperament traits like hyperactivity, lack of instinctive traits, more drive than brains, etc. The difference is that the owners/breeders of these dogs take it like their dogs are....they consider the merits and seek more balance or disregard the criticism and let it roll off their back like their dogs. While the showline people rant about bashing, picking on the showlines, or fold up and get angry at the messenger....similar to their dogs.
> I seldom see someone come on here and show me plenty of evidence that what I am posting is wrong or minimally present. Instead, they deflect the criticism by crying about about the otherside, some extreme exaggerated post of hurt or anger, or the tiresome "stop bashing the showlines. I have made a distinction many times that there is a difference between owner and breeder....and mosts of my posts are not directed to owners but rather breeders who are SUPPOSED to be stewards of the breed. But if the stewards of the breed can't see the shortcomings of the breed, if the stewards of the breed won't pursue necssary changes in the breed because it goes contrary to what they LIKE, if the stewards of the breed don't really know what a GS should be capable of and are maintaining that, if the stewards of the breed are so caught up in specialization of the most genetically diverse working breed, if the stewards of the breed don't know the breed history, understand that true structure is working structure, and if the structure you are pursuing is not optimum in working you have gone off base somewhere, if the stewards of the breed don't realize that you breed for utility first and THEN you show or sport your results, if you happen to have an exceptional candidate, but you keep the genetics BALANCED.
> If these basic tenets are not in the forefront of the stewards of the breed's mindset....then a dog will start to emerge that has very little application to what the dog was made for.
> Has this happened over the years, the stewards of the breed have to be the Judge....but one things is sure...when you put your personal feelings/likes in the direction of your breeding program OVER what the blueprint for this breed says it ought to be....YOU are a BACKYARD BREEDER, IN MY OPINION.
> IF I offended some in this post, get over yourself...this isn't directed at people this is directed at practices of breeders that have led this breed from its rightful perch as great utility dog.


Sounds almost like you are condeming *all* breeders - are there any that you do like - in both working and showlines?

Second, I am curious as to whether you are referring to German and US breeders as well as Czech (sp) and all other countries or just certain countries (working and or showlines?)?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Has anyone ever seen a good temperamented US showline dog?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Has anyone ever seen a good temperamented US showline dog?


Back in 1984 We got a dog that was heavily linebred on Lance of Fran Jo (yes the ubiquitous Lance) and Pinebeach kennel was another name I remember a lot of.

He was actually fairly well balanced physically and was as awesome dog. He actually was one of those dogs who was a dream with the kids and would go outside with them (we had no fence) and watch them like a hawk. Kids could fall on him and he did not react. My youngest learned to walk pulling up to him and him walking slowly with her. We did everything wrong with that dog I guess. I did tracking with him (never titled but we were doing TDX tracks) and he was very protective but not in a fearful way. Every night he would patrol from bedroom door to bedroom door. Lived to be 15. He was intact until about 4 and I think neutering him under pressure was a mistake.

That was the last amline dog I had but he was a good dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Codmaster, if that's how you read my post...so be it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I haven't read this whole thread but the way I see it is that there are dogs I would buy and people I would buy from, and then there are dogs you couldn't pay me to own and people who will never see a cent of my money. Sometimes the dog I am interested it is not something I'd recommend to someone else. Sometimes I might buy a dog from a breeder I might not recommend to everyone. Sometimes I might recommend a dog to a friend that I personally have no interest in owning. It really just depends on the buyer's needs and level of experience. What bothers me more than "BYBs" or however we want to classify breeders is when people seem to put so much stake in what others will say on the Internet and don't realize how important it is to spend TIME with the dogs and breeders and figure out for themselves what is important to them.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I haven't read this whole thread but the way I see it is that there are dogs I would buy and people I would buy from, and then there are dogs you couldn't pay me to own and people who will never see a cent of my money. Sometimes the dog I am interested it is not something I'd recommend to someone else. Sometimes I might buy a dog from a breeder I might not recommend to everyone. Sometimes I might recommend a dog to a friend that I personally have no interest in owning. It really just depends on the buyer's needs and level of experience. What bothers me more than "BYBs" or *however we want to classify breeders is when people seem to put so much stake in what others will say on the Internet and don't realize how important it is to spend TIME with the dogs and breeders and figure out for themselves what is important to them. *


Lies~ I think you summed it up well!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I second that. 

You can worship somebody all you want but you've got to get your own opinion and make your own experiences as well.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Bottom line for me is that the quality dogs really speak for themselves and sell themselves. At least, I have found it rare that a truly terrible breeder (as in, someone that is a horrible person) is breeding dogs that I would be interested in. There are several breeders I'm interested in that don't check off all the boxes people normally mention on these forums. They don't have a fancy flash web site, they bred a female back-to-back, they sold a dog that could not reproduce, they bred a dog before it had a SchH3, bla bla bla. There are a lot of breeders I'd happily buy from that I might not recommend to people looking for a family pet type GSD, but then again, these are very purpose-bred dogs and IMO a GSD should live a purposeful existence. Sometimes people looking for a GSD should be looking for a different breed but that's another matter. Too often it seems we have a "do as I say, not as I do..." mentality on this forum...


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