# What is dignity?



## Bridget

I wanted to post this question in the weekly discussion area, but only a moderator can do that. I have a quality of life scale thingy that I look at often these days, and one of the statements is that a dog would not want to live without dignity. But what, in your opinion, is dignity? Clearly, it is difficult to describe, yet we know it when we see it. I would love to hear people's thoughts and give examples too. 

The definition that I am beginning to formulate is being a real dog and doing the things that dogs do. And I think a dog can have help/accommodations to do these things, such as help getting outside, without a loss of dignity. But if the help has run its course, then maybe it could be a loss of dignity issue. Please share with me your thoughts about dignity.


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## my boy diesel

for instance a dog that is unable to contain its bowel and bladder 
and that dog is ashamed of itself as it perceives itself to be making messes in the house
that is a loss of dignity imo


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## lalachka

I don't think dogs can be ashamed. 

I also think, dignity or not, if yu asked a dog if he wants to live, most of the time he'd say yes. Just as people. They want to live in any condition. 

I'm not saying I won't put my dog down when I feel it's time, I might and I might not. Just sharing my thoughts 


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## kiya

This is a subject close to my heart right now.
Apache is 11-1/2 dispite him getting all jammed up by his hind quarters he still acts like he's rearing to go. He was diagnosed with Bells Palsey a few months ago which left him wich partial paralisis on his left side. He can't get up the small step on the deck unless he's facing it from his right side. When he gets jammed up he will keep trying, I see his frustration building, he might give out a whine but he doesn't give up. If I take the sling and try to help him he gets growly but eventually stops his protest. So for him I do think because he's such a proud out going dog he has the need to do for himself. Sometimes he gets jammed up on the ramp too but again he knows he has to start at the bottom and not the middle of the ramp. He will keep positioning himself till he has it right.
Kiya, 10yrs old, she has a hard time getting up and of course rather than lay on the rug she lays on the bare floor. I think she's become more dependent (not sure if that's really the word) if I see her having a hard time I'll tell her "wait I'll help you" and I push up on her butt. The new problem is sometimes when I get her up theres poop. of course I don't scold her but she looks at me with those eyes and I can't help but wonder.
I pray for peacefully in their sleep but we know how that goes.
I do believe dogs do have a sense of dignity and as long as they show some effort I'm ok with that.


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## Anubis_Star

People get too focused on not giving their animals feelings and emotions. But really, a 13 year old house trained dog knows not to potty inside. When they do because now they're old and have lost sphincter control, they are going to be upset. I know I've seen this in zeke when he's had giardia, couldn't hold it, and had diarrhea in the basement. He was hiding in my room when I came home.

If dogs could comprehend life and death and make that choice, it would be different. But they can't. A sick animal can't comprehend why they're sick or if they're dying or nor. They only live in the moment, and if that moment is not comfortable they should not be forced to endure it, IMHO 

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## wyoung2153

Not that I am close to the time to think like that (I hope) but I do believe dignity in that sense means not able to function the way they want to. Not like slowing down, but things as diesel said.. not being able to hold going potty, not being able to eat properly, not being able to be with you.. those kinds of things. Things they know they used to know how to do and just can't anymore. 

I have 2 examples, one is actually with Titan, even though he is only 4. A few months ago I had to keep the dog door shut for some work that was being done in my back yard. I had taken him out to potty prior and then shut the door. He apparently ate something at some point, and had diarrhea.. he ended up goingon the floor in the dining room by the window leading to the yard. He completely destroyed the blinds on the back door tryingto get out, then went for the blinds to the only other window leading to the yard and went there when he couldn't get outside. He was so ashamed.. he didn't greet me. He sat next to the back door with his head and ears down. Even after I said "it's ok" and pet him he moped around for the longest time. 

The second example would be my neighbors chi's. She had 2. They were both 20 years old. The were both blind and deaf and had no teeth. They had to be kept in the laundry room with news paper. No water could be left out because if they went to drink it, they couldn't always pull their head out. When I watched them for a week I had to hold them above their food so they didn't fall into it, I had to hold them above their water. The male would usually jsut lay down somewhere, but the female would walk in circles on the paper for ever until she hit a wall and then she would start all over again. They peed and pooped all over themselves and I had to clean them up every time I went over. This to me was living without dignity. I was young at the time, so I told my parents to talk with them, but the neighbors didn't want to let them go yet. Selfish and sad, but they did pass within a year from that.


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## lalachka

Anubis_Star said:


> People get too focused on not giving their animals feelings and emotions. But really, a 13 year old house trained dog knows not to potty inside. When they do because now they're old and have lost sphincter control, they are going to be upset. I know I've seen this in zeke when he's had giardia, couldn't hold it, and had diarrhea in the basement. He was hiding in my room when I came home.
> 
> If dogs could comprehend life and death and make that choice, it would be different. But they can't. A sick animal can't comprehend why they're sick or if they're dying or nor. They only live in the moment, and if that moment is not comfortable they should not be forced to endure it, IMHO
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



My dog had diarrhea in the house many times. He never hides from me. Every time he went in the house I came up to him and told him that it was OK. I never want him to try to suffer through it and hold it. 

So when he does have diarrhea in the house he acts normal. 

I don't pretend to know what's in an animal's head. Just sharing my observations. I do think that a sense of dignity is something that dogs can't have. 

ETA I probably humanize my dog more than most. So I don't go out of my way to not grant him the ability to have emotions. 


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## lalachka

Also, about dogs being able to make the choice of life and death. That's why I gave that example. People can. How many choose to not live?


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## ZoeD1217

lalachka said:


> Also, about dogs being able to make the choice of life and death. That's why I gave that example. People can. How many choose to not live?
> 
> 
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Almost everyone I know intimately enough to have these conversations with would not want to live in constant pain and with no ability to care for themself. 

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## lalachka

ZoeD1217 said:


> Almost everyone I know intimately enough to have these conversations with would not want to live in constant pain and with no ability to care for themself.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Yeah, I know. I've said it myself when I was younger and stupider. 

While I wouldn't want to live in a wheelchair or in pain, chances are that if/when it happens I won't kill myself. 

People are very adaptable. They can and do adapt to A LOT. 

I'd be interested to know how many sick people committed suicide once they became sick just because they didn't want to live sick or disabled. I'd think it's a tiny %. 


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## wyoung2153

I think committing suicide is a whole other issue on that topic but I have, and most recently with a family member who had stage 4 cancer tell us he was done and couldn't do it anymore..


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## ZoeD1217

lalachka said:


> Yeah, I know. I've said it myself when I was younger and stupider.
> 
> While I wouldn't want to live in a wheelchair or in pain, chances are that if/when it happens I won't kill myself.
> 
> People are very adaptable. They can and do adapt to A LOT.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how many sick people committed suicide once they became sick just because they didn't want to live sick or disabled. I'd think it's a tiny %.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ouch...younger AND stupider...

I'm not talking about offing myself as soon as I lose the ability to walk or the first time I shat my britches. I'm just saying there comes a point when the quality of life is not there. I've never had to make that decision so I'm certainly not claiming to know all the answers. 

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## lalachka

wyoung2153 said:


> I think committing suicide is a whole other issue on that topic but I have, and most recently with a family member who had stage 4 cancer tell us he was done and couldn't do it anymore..



It's not. It's related. People don't say that I'm choosing to put my dog down because he's a burden at this point, they say that they're doing it because a dog wouldn't want to live in this condition. Since dogs can't tell us I think it's OK to use people as an example. Same survival instinct we are going against. 


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## kiya

When I was a child about 11, both of my grandmothers dogs should have been pts a long time before they were. I promised myself I would never let my dogs suffer. Over the years I've had to make that decision more times than I'd care too. Apache and Kiya aren't there yet but I pay attention to the little things we often take for granted. I don't mind helping them get up, cleaning up an accident or whatever else. They still go for walks short ones and they still get all excited.
Stinks getting old.


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## lalachka

ZoeD1217 said:


> Ouch...younger AND stupider...
> 
> I'm not talking about offing myself as soon as I lose the ability to walk or the first time I shat my britches. I'm just saying there comes a point when the quality of life is not there. I've never had to make that decision so I'm certainly not claiming to know all the answers.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Lol yep. Pretty stupid still and will remain that way))))) it's actually fun. The more you know the more you actually do want to off yourself. 
But back to the subject. I agree with the quality of life, it's just very hard for us to actually decide to kill ourselves. Or let someone euthanize us. I'm assuming it's the same for dogs. 


I'm not knocking anyone for euthanizing, please don't take it that way. I put my cat down myself. 

I can stop writing here all together. It's a sensitive topic and I don't want to offend anyone


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## kiya

wyoung2153 said:


> I think committing suicide is a whole other issue on that topic but I have, and most recently with a family member who had stage 4 cancer tell us he was done and couldn't do it anymore..


That's really so sad, my husband is stage 4 he has been on chemo for about a year and a half and I see it taking it's toll on him.


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## lalachka

kiya said:


> When I was a child about 11, both of my grandmothers dogs should have been pts a long time before they were. I promised myself I would never let my dogs suffer. Over the years I've had to make that decision more times than I'd care too. Apache and Kiya aren't there yet but I pay attention to the little things we often take for granted. I don't mind helping them get up, cleaning up an accident or whatever else. They still go for walks short ones and they still get all excited.
> Stinks getting old.



Yep, lots that happens in childhood makes us who we are. Maybe if I had your experiences I wouldn't be saying what I'm saying. 

It's a sensitive subject. But I like talking about diff things and getting diff opinions. I'm not trying to offend or judge anyone. 


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## selzer

I guess I don't consider a dog having dignity. Yes, they may feel worried when they potty in the house, and we have to just clean it up, not saying it is ok, not punishing the dog, just taking it as a matter of course. But I do not know that, that would be the deciding factor in when to euthanize.

For me it is a quality of life thing. If the dog is in pain, and is depressed -- does not want to get up, does not want to eat, etc. It is probably time. We can help dogs go to the bridge, so they do not need to suffer through the process of dying. 

On that note, Babs had a major loose stool episode waiting for me when I woke up this morning. I put her outside and started cleaning. And cleaning. She had walked in it, so I had to scrub the floor in my bedroom, the hall, and the bathroom where she planted it. She did not seem embarrassed at all. It was storming and wet out there last night that I let her out in the front and she peed, but I didn't maybe give her the opportunity to poop. So it was probably my fault. I also gave her raw eggs that I had dipped the floured chicken into, maybe that did not go over well. Can't tell. Only she did not feel it any loss of dignity. 

When I let her in, I crated her for a while. So I could feed the puppies and let the big guy out in the house for a while, and when I finally did let her back in, she immediately took up her post on my newly made bed of fresh bedding, not in the least bit disturbed about the horror story I had to clean up. And I did not give her any trouble about it, because, it was loose, when that stuff wants out, it comes out, like it or not.


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## ZoeD1217

lalachka said:


> Lol yep. Pretty stupid still and will remain that way))))) it's actually fun. The more you know the more you actually do want to off yourself.
> But back to the subject. I agree with the quality of life, it's just very hard for us to actually decide to kill ourselves. Or let someone euthanize us. I'm assuming it's the same for dogs.
> 
> 
> I'm not knocking anyone for euthanizing, please don't take it that way. I put my cat down myself.
> 
> I can stop writing here all together. It's a sensitive topic and I don't want to offend anyone
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Just read my response and it sounds like I'm calling you stupid! I'm not! 

I understand what you're getting at. It's a very personal decision and one that I don't look forward to ever having to make. 

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## lalachka

ZoeD1217 said:


> Just read my response and it sounds like I'm calling you stupid! I'm not!
> 
> I understand what you're getting at. It's a very personal decision and one that I don't look forward to ever having to make.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Lol I called myself stupid. Younger and stupider. Trying to say that I still have lots to learn

Yep))))) I've said many things that I was forced to eat at some point. You don't know what you will do until it happens to you. 


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## Bridget

I wonder also if dignity means different things to different dogs? For instance, I know many older dogs are completely mortified by having an accident. I posted a while back about Heidi "losing" poop in the house occasionally. When this happened, she would just look at me like "so what, deal with it." I'm not saying it wouldn't be a dignity issue if she gets to where she is lying in it, etc., but a small, firm accident really didn't seem to bother her much. Also, I know some dogs get along amazingly well using a cart, but I think for others it would signify a loss of dignity?


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## my boy diesel

as the owner of a dog that was euthanized due to sudden and irreversible paralysis yes i will say he was ashamed of himself
we assured him it was not his fault but had you been here you could have seen he was very pained and troubled by having what he perceived as accidents in the house
in fact the loss of dignity in that situation was what drove us to euthanize him because it was not a kindness to him to keep him alive


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## lalachka

I'm on my first dog, I haven't had to make decisions and you're right, I wasn't there to see your dog. It's possible that they're ashamed of something. 

It sounds unbelievable to me for now but so did many things before. 


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## my boy diesel

*I wonder also if dignity means different things to different dogs? *
i think so


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## kiya

Since all dogs have different personalities I'm sure dignity has different levels. I've come across dogs that appear truly clueless and I know many dogs that have an excelled intelligence and understanding of their surroundings.
When you look into those eyes sometimes it seems that they are looking into you.


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## My2shepherds

I have had to make the decision to have two dogs (at different times in my life) put to sleep. They were both getting old and seemed to go from there to not there rather quickly. The trigger for me outside of the physical difficulties was the lack of life in there eyes. You can see when the light has left and they are miserable with their own existence. I believe they will let you know when the time is right for them to be allowed to go.


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## wyoung2153

I do believe the dignity comes at different levels for every dog and other animals for that matter. I do also think that some dogs to make the decision that this is the end. When I as young I remember my Sheltie who was very old and having issues, who never went outside on his own anymore, and never was without a human, suddenly asked to go outside by himself and lay under his favorite tree... he passed away within an hour of that moment. We thought it so odd that he was staying out by himself, but IMO he knew that he was going and wanted to find his own place.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

I agree w/ My boy Diesel and Kiya dignity and when its time to go is as individual as every dog is.I think its about dignity,the pain they are in and whether they are still finding joy in their life. Daisy was in distress but when they brought her in to say goodbye she drug the tech into the room.Daisy hated the vets office. She always wanted to be w/ us but in those last 24 hours couldnt. 

Lucky, being almost 12 years old means I watch him alot. I see him lose his back legs when he's trying to get up or when he's running sometimes and I know I have to make sure he still has fun and feels safe.He also wants to be w/ me no matter what. So I may end up sleeping on our couch for a period of time if his legs continue to fail. The girls I dont know as well as I did Daisy and Lucky but they are people dogs and love walks and car rides.How I will know ? Im not sure but I'll go back to the scale Jean B posted and hope and pray for wisdom.


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## Mister C

selzer said:


> I guess I don't consider a dog having dignity. Yes, they may feel worried when they potty in the house, and we have to just clean it up, not saying it is ok, not punishing the dog, just taking it as a matter of course. But I do not know that, that would be the deciding factor in when to euthanize.
> 
> For me it is a quality of life thing. If the dog is in pain, and is depressed -- does not want to get up, does not want to eat, etc. It is probably time. We can help dogs go to the bridge, so they do not need to suffer through the process of dying.





Bridget said:


> I wonder also if dignity means different things to different dogs? For instance, I know many older dogs are completely mortified by having an accident. I posted a while back about Heidi "losing" poop in the house occasionally. When this happened, she would just look at me like "so what, deal with it." I'm not saying it wouldn't be a dignity issue if she gets to where she is lying in it, etc., but a small, firm accident really didn't seem to bother her much. Also, I know some dogs get along amazingly well using a cart, but I think for others it would signify a loss of dignity?


I am not convinced that dogs understand the concept of dignity. Going potty in the house due to old age/health issues can certainly upset the humans in the house. Dogs read those upset emotions and react to it. Owners that are sensitive to such events react more strongly and so does the dog (e.g. hiding, hanging head, etc which I think is appeasement behavior and not shame or loss of "dignity").

When my old dog Maddie started having incontinence issues we simply dealt with the cleanup, didn't scold or otherwise react to it. It happened. We cleaned and moved on with our lives. And so did Maddie. 

Maddie also used a cart and it bought her another year of quality life. Was she ashamed and feeling less dignified by using a doggie wheelchair? No, I don't think so. She took to it immediately and was really happy having increased mobility. She did feel a little vulnerable being locked into an apparatus but I don't think she was ashamed of it. I know plenty of humans, my mother included, that could not accept a wheelchair due to a loss of dignity. If my mother could have only seen Maddie enjoying her wheelchair perhaps it would have convinced her to accept one herself. But I digress...

Getting old sucks. Someday someone may have to clean up after me and I sure hope that isn't enough to have me put down. As Selzer said, it's a quality of life thing. When Maddie didn't want to do her daily walk anymore and seemed depressed we knew it was time to PTS. When I no longer take joy from life, well then my time will have come.


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## lalachka

Yep, I just didn't wNt to say it. But, yeAh, if a dog is hiding because he pottied in the house it's not because he's ashamed, it's because he read your reaction to it. I'm not saying you're beating him for it but you're upset or yu don't like it and he can tell. 


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## wyoung2153

I will have to disagree with not feeling shamed. I get that dogs aren't humans and don't feel emotion quite like we do but I do believe they have some level of understanding. Yes they feed off our reactions to situations. But what about if there were no reactions? Just liek in Mister C's example, if Titan went in the house it was clear he couldn't get outside for some reason. I don't react. I have never reacted. So why the low drooping head or shameful slink? Or how about the upset gestures when they can't go outside and play? or any of those things? There has to be some level of emotion in there. 

I mean.. does the dog sit there and go "I've lost my dignity guys, this is it." No but do they resppond when they can't do something they have done for so long and suddenly can't. I am not saying that they should be put down for this, at all, just that for some this is more shameful than other things. Mister C, your dog responded great to a wheel chair, others may not at all. I truly believe it's about each individual dog. jsut as with any other temperament, you can't lump them all together. 

and lalachka, you keep saying you humanize your dog in this post and as displayed in others, like the one about spending time with your dogs because you feel bad for them. How do you not think they feel anything when they get older in regards to feeling shameful for not being able to do something (genuine question, not meant with attitude  ).


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## lalachka

I just don't believe they feel shame. I believe they can feel things, I believe that he likes to play, he likes to run, to go out, do certain things. I also believe he dislikes some things. 

So yeah, I can feel bad when I think I haven't taken him out long enough because I feel like he needs to spend time with me and outside for his mental health. 

I just don't believe he can feel dignified, shameful, guilty and stuff like that. 


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## wyoung2153

hmm. that's very interesting.


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## kiya

lalachka said:


> I'm on my first dog, I haven't had to make decisions and you're right, I wasn't there to see your dog. It's possible that they're ashamed of something.
> 
> It sounds unbelievable to me for now but so did many things before.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No offense but if your on your first dog I think you will come to learn what some of us have learned over the years.


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## Mister C

wyoung2153 said:


> I will have to disagree with not feeling shamed. I get that dogs aren't humans and don't feel emotion quite like we do but I do believe they have some level of understanding. Yes they feed off our reactions to situations. But what about if there were no reactions? Just liek in Mister C's example, if Titan went in the house it was clear he couldn't get outside for some reason. I don't react. I have never reacted. So why the low drooping head or shameful slink? Or how about the upset gestures when they can't go outside and play? or any of those things? There has to be some level of emotion in there.
> 
> I mean.. does the dog sit there and go "I've lost my dignity guys, this is it." No but do they resppond when they can't do something they have done for so long and suddenly can't. I am not saying that they should be put down for this, at all, just that for some this is more shameful than other things. Mister C, your dog responded great to a wheel chair, others may not at all. I truly believe it's about each individual dog. jsut as with any other temperament, you can't lump them all together.
> 
> and lalachka, you keep saying you humanize your dog in this post and as displayed in others, like the one about spending time with your dogs because you feel bad for them. How do you not think they feel anything when they get older in regards to feeling shameful for not being able to do something (genuine question, not meant with attitude  ).



Here is an interesting article on dog shame/guilt.
Do Dogs Feel Guilty? | The Thoughtful Animal, Scientific American Blog Network

I am not saying dog's don't feel emotion. I think that they do. I am just not so sure that they feel shame/guilt--at least in the same way humans do.

I also agree with you and other posters that dog's are individuals and it can be hard to draw general conclusions.

I was lucky with the wheelchair and Maddie's ready acceptance of it. But she also had a real need and was ready to accept it. She also trusted me absolutely and would do anything I asked of her (e.g. when she was young she had a deep bite wound in her belly that required me to flip her on her back twice a day to clean out the wound). 

How do I think they feel when they cannot do something anymore? Sad, depressed, and disappointed come to mind but not a loss of dignity. When Maddie couldn't go down steps anymore to go outside, I helped her down. She would wait for me to lift up her back end and nuzzle me before we went down the 2 steps. I solved that problem for her and she perked up. She came to expect that assistance and showed me some affection for the help. Same with the wheelchair and countless other things that I can think of. 

Similar story with my first dog Schmoe who went suddenly blind. She was lost, a bit scared and depressed at first. But she came to accept her blindness very quickly. We couldn't move the furniture and her walk was the exact same path everyday but she handled it with aplomb--and much better than I would do if I went blind.

Interesting subject and I do appreciate the varying viewpoints being expressed here.

All the best,

Michael


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## lauren43

This topic hits close to home as I had to let my beloved dog go at only 4 years of age. I made the decision when he stopped doing the things he loved. The whole illness progressed so quickly, I think to be honest I'm still in shock. It was only a cough. A cough that wouldn't go away. I only got 1 week with him after his diagnosis. The night before I made the decision he went outside and did not want to come in. Just picked a spot in the grass and laid there and would not move. When I brought him into the vet, I had to carry him into the exam room. He didn't want to look at me or be near me and this is a dog that would glue himself to my hip if he could. He just stopped acting like the dog he had been for the almost 4 years I had him...

It's all hard, but at least when they are older you get some time to prepare, when something sudden and horrible happens, it turns the world upside down. If you had told me in January I would not still have my Avery, I would have never believed you...


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## My2shepherds

In my opinion, dogs feel every emotion we feel just on a purer (if that is a word? lol) level. I have seen grief, loneliness, fear, anger and yes even shame in my dogs' eyes and displayed in their posture. I believe their reasons for respect vary from ours as well as the motivation for their emotions but I 100% believe they have them and display them.


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## lalachka

kiya said:


> No offense but if your on your first dog I think you will come to learn what some of us have learned over the years.



That's exactly what I said in the post you quoted. 

However, it's also very possible that I'm seeing what you're seeing in your dogs and not interpreting it the way you would. 

I've seen him hang his head, I've seen him prance around looking like he's proud of himself. I just realize that I'm assigning words to his behaviors based on what humans feel when they do similar things. 


So if I see him hang his head I don't assume he's shameful. If I see him hold his head high I don't assume he's proud. 


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## lalachka

Why is hanging their head a sign of shame? Who said that just because we hang our heads when we are sad, embarrassed, whatever - then that's why dogs do it too. 

Their body language is different than ours. We show out teeth when we are happy, no one thinks a dog showing their teeth is happy. 


I don't know if dogs can feel emotions in the way we do. They might look like they do but you really don't know what goes on inside them. Neither do I. 

This conversation can go on for days and no one will know the truth. 


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## lalachka

My2shepherds said:


> In my opinion, dogs feel every emotion we feel just on a purer (if that is a word? lol) level. I have seen grief, loneliness, fear, anger and yes even shame in my dogs' eyes and displayed in their posture. I believe their reasons for respect vary from ours as well as the motivation for their emotions but I 100% believe they have them and display them.



What's a shameful posture for a dog?


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## Bridget

I think dogs experience the same emotions we do, including the loss of dignity. But since they live in the present only, I think they don't obsess about it like we do, lucky them.


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## OklahomaGSDonTheRez

Anubis_Star said:


> People get too focused on not giving their animals feelings and emotions. But really, a 13 year old house trained dog knows not to potty inside. When they do because now they're old and have lost sphincter control, they are going to be upset. I know I've seen this in zeke when he's had giardia, couldn't hold it, and had diarrhea in the basement. He was hiding in my room when I came home.
> 
> If dogs could comprehend life and death and make that choice, it would be different. But they can't. A sick animal can't comprehend why they're sick or if they're dying or nor. They only live in the moment, and if that moment is not comfortable they should not be forced to endure it, IMHO
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I completely agree with your first paragraph and disagree with your second. If they only live in the moment then why did your dog hide from you from something it did in the past. Dogs DO make the choice of life or death! Have you never seen a dog that will "go off and die"? I live in the country and have witnessed my dogs that were older or sick and when they know that it is thier time, they will go to a place that they somehow deem suitable. It is usually a place that is hidden and a distance away from where it normally stays. Saying a sick animal cant comprehend that it is sick is also rubbish! You think your dog doesnt know that it feels terrible? They are just as concious and cognitive as humans! Cognitively they are different than us because thats how they have evolved as a species over the thousands of years. Dogs, cats, whales and all other animals feel emotion, remember the past and connect with loved ones much like humans do. If you dont believe me then you have never trully looked into the eyes of a german shepherd.


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## lalachka

Omg. 100 diff people will 'look into the eye of a German shepherd' and will see 100 diff things and then interpret what they saw based on their beliefs, upbringing and a bunch of other variables. 




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## readaboutdogs

Perhaps dignity is also a beings spirit. With Clipper I felt a "handing over of the reins" so to speak, in his last days. Perhaps dignity is a learned response over time. Animals and humans learn rules, actions to be used appropriately in different situations, sometimes being told to, sometimes on their own. If you were walking down the street, and someone started making fun of you, you could pass on with no response, you head held high with the dignity not to " lower" yourself to that standard, as example. Is that learned, or is it spirit? Clipper's handing over the reins as I say was a trust built over our years together. He knew he was unable to do some things and trusted and expected that I would be there for him. He had his dignity and spirit.


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## Anubis_Star

OklahomaGSDonTheRez said:


> I completely agree with your first paragraph and disagree with your second. If they only live in the moment then why did your dog hide from you from something it did in the past. Dogs DO make the choice of life or death! Have you never seen a dog that will "go off and die"? I live in the country and have witnessed my dogs that were older or sick and when they know that it is thier time, they will go to a place that they somehow deem suitable. It is usually a place that is hidden and a distance away from where it normally stays. Saying a sick animal cant comprehend that it is sick is also rubbish! You think your dog doesnt know that it feels terrible? They are just as concious and cognitive as humans! Cognitively they are different than us because thats how they have evolved as a species over the thousands of years. Dogs, cats, whales and all other animals feel emotion, remember the past and connect with loved ones much like humans do. If you dont believe me then you have never trully looked into the eyes of a german shepherd.


I never meant they can't comprehend they are sick. What I meant is - if I was extremely sick and would probably die, I would still want every treatment possible because I knew if there was even a chance I could pull through, I would want it. Or at least I would want to live as long as possible because the thought of death is terrifying. So the suffering is better. 

BUT, a dog doesnt comprehend that. "it's ok, I'm miserable, at least I'm still alive." They simply understand feeling miserable. Illness vs. Death has no meaning to a dog as they don't comprehend death as we do. Yes fight or flight applies to animals out of survival instinct. But not true comprehension of "one is better than the other." 

If a dog is going to die regardless (they can't walk anymore due to HD), then IMHO it is better to euthanize sooner rather than later. Because again, the dog doesnt understand "hey I'm absolutely miserable but I get to live an extra month.... suffering... without being able to understand why...."

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## Anubis_Star

lalachka said:


> Why is hanging their head a sign of shame? Who said that just because we hang our heads when we are sad, embarrassed, whatever - then that's why dogs do it too.
> 
> Their body language is different than ours. We show out teeth when we are happy, no one thinks a dog showing their teeth is happy.
> 
> 
> I don't know if dogs can feel emotions in the way we do. They might look like they do but you really don't know what goes on inside them. Neither do I.
> 
> This conversation can go on for days and no one will know the truth.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually there was a scientific article put out with the theory that dogs do "smile", imitating a human"s smile by showing their teeth. Completely unnatural behavior done out of imitation.

That being said, I don't understand why a dog can't be proud. When a large group of people are around, zeke most certainly prances around with a toy in his mouth, head held high, for the attention. He is very happy, it's obviously. He is very pleased with the attention. Why is this not pride? No, he can not comprehend pride as you or I can. But the same happy emotion I get when I do well and someone pats me on the head, why can't they feel that same emotion? He is performing a task that is getting a positive response and he is feeling joy and pleasure from that.

Human psychotic drugs (prozac being a huge one) are COMMONLY used on dogs and cats and other animals for behavioral problems, showing there has to be some kind of link between how humans feel emotions and how animals feel them if the same drugs cause response in both species. Lack of intelligence to comprehend the emotions on the same level don't mean there is a lack of emotion. Simply comprehension and response. 

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## gsdsar

I don't believe dogs share the same emotions as people. Things like shame, dignity, pride, they all require that the animal have self awareness. Dogs are not self aware. 

As for drugs like Prozac, it changes brain chemistry. It does not affect emotions. And I have never seen it used for depression in dogs like it is with people. It's used for anxiety. 


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I am so glad that the potty issue has been discussed. I had a very neat, very clean Chow mix. He would hop over places that dogs had pottied, walked around areas that had been cleaned, was meticulous and really grossed out by functions. 

But in his last year, his spine was so fused that he started to have some accidents. At first he seemed a little freaked out, and I didn't want him to be unhappy because he was healthy otherwise. So I just used training to reinforce that it was okay to do it. He would have never done it on purpose, and always tried to get outside, but if he had an accident (couldn't feel it - poop just plopped out as he walked) I would laugh, clap, treat (not every time, and eventually stopped), pick up. So we re-framed the issue, he was mostly continent, and when not, he'd eventually look back at it like "pick it up" and then keep on going. The only time it was bad is if he did it while sleeping and then he'd wake up and try to hide it in his blanket.  He had nice, not even that smelly poop which helped! My GSD now...oof. But same thing if she has an accident due to her GI issues or if she leaks. 

Like Mister C I eventually had to help with stairs and I'd use a Ruffwear harness. Kramer would stop at the top of the stairs, and I'd pick him up and swing him down so he was flying and would say wheeeeeee! set him down and he'd take off running - so it was fun. He would not have stopped and waited if it had been otherwise - the opposition reflex was strong in him. 

So I guess some of what we do - if you think of how good nurses/people who do patient care respond - it's really teaching. If I want to teach my dog to get on the counter to eat their supper, they will do it even if it's "wrong," so we can work with our old dogs to teach new behaviors that help them respond well to aging. That will help us see them as dignified, which is really what we are responding to - our perception of their dignity.


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## Mister C

readaboutdogs said:


> Perhaps dignity is also a beings spirit. With Clipper I felt a "handing over of the reins" so to speak, in his last days. ... Clipper's handing over the reins as I say was a trust built over our years together. He knew he was unable to do some things and trusted and expected that I would be there for him. He had his dignity and spirit.


Fascinating response readaboutdogs. I know exactly what you mean by "handing over the reins". Now that you put that so elegantly into words I can reflect back and see the same thing from my old Maddie. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.




JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Like Mister C I eventually had to help with stairs and I'd use a Ruffwear harness. Kramer would stop at the top of the stairs, and I'd pick him up and swing him down so he was flying and would say wheeeeeee! set him down and he'd take off running - so it was fun. He would not have stopped and waited if it had been otherwise - the opposition reflex was strong in him.
> 
> So I guess some of what we do - if you think of how good nurses/people who do patient care respond - it's really teaching. If I want to teach my dog to get on the counter to eat their supper, they will do it even if it's "wrong," so we can work with our old dogs to teach new behaviors that help them respond well to aging. That will help us see them as dignified, which is really what we are responding to - our perception of their dignity.


Yes, it's teaching JeanKBBMMMAAN. I totally agree. Maddie was also fastidious and never pooped or peed in the house until her health issues made that not a option. My mother was an ICU nurse and then home health care nurse for the elderly. I thought of her often as I helped my old dog adapt to her aging process.


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## My2shepherds

lalachka said:


> What's a shameful posture for a dog?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


LOL I used to have a black lab/pointer mix that would occaisionally eat the food out of the cat bowl. I knew she did it everytime because as soon as I came home instead of her typical "I'm so happy to see you" greeting she would slowly walk up to me head down, tail tucked and lay down at my feet. The cat bowl was in the barn and this "greeting" occured as soon as I would get out of the car in the driveway so it was in no way associated with me being in the area and her picking up on my reaction. She knew she had done wrong and was displaying that to me immediately.


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## lalachka

My2shepherds said:


> LOL I used to have a black lab/pointer mix that would occaisionally eat the food out of the cat bowl. I knew she did it everytime because as soon as I came home instead of her typical "I'm so happy to see you" greeting she would slowly walk up to me head down, tail tucked and lay down at my feet. The cat bowl was in the barn and this "greeting" occured as soon as I would get out of the car in the driveway so it was in no way associated with me being in the area and her picking up on my reaction. She knew she had done wrong and was displaying that to me immediately.



Sorry but I can't believe this one. We have this argument with my friend all the time. She comes home and her dog acts guilty because he knows he destroyed the house. 

First of all, they have to remember that they did something 'wrong' and I don't believe that they do. Second of all, you might be giving off clues without noticing. It's also very possible that he did something else 'wrong' right before you came in and your act of coming home caught him in the process of doing it. 

There's so many variables. Unless I'm there watching I can't tell you why I think he did it. 

Acting guilty is just calming signals, submissive signals. 

This is all my opinion of course)))) as I said, no one knows for sure what's in their heads


Here are my experiences. I came home to many messes, my dog acts like nothing happened.

However, when he chases the cats and I say no he starts looking 'guilty', he's just giving off calming signals because he knows he's about to be killed. 


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## My2shepherds

I do not want to disrespect your views, differences of opinion are what make this forum interesting, but I do believe dogs can remember... people, places, things and actions... I believe their emotional drive is different from ours but i do believe they experience emotion..


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## lalachka

My2shepherds said:


> I do not want to disrespect your views, differences of opinion are what make this forum interesting, but I do believe dogs can remember... people, places, things and actions... I believe their emotional drive is different from ours but i do believe they experience emotion..



Lol you're being very respectful. You're not disrespecting anything by disagreeing. I also like reading about different people's views


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## wyoung2153

Well to add to the feeling guilty stories.. Titan does that when he gets into the trash and I never see that part until I get past him and through the kitchen since the trash he gets into is in the bathroom on the other side of the house.. no way for me to know about it ahead of time. (P.S. Always my fault with the trash anyways and I have envers colded him for it, I know he does it if I leave the door open, so when I see it, it's a "dang it Whitney!!" thought and I calmly pick it up.)

Normal routine is.. come home, waggy jumping puppy.. bolts out the dog door to wait by his toys (Fetch time is right after I change out of uniform). I always know if he has gone through the trash because I will come home and my waggy jumpy puppy is not.. he's sitting in his bed in the living room, I have to find him, and he has this guilty look on his face and barely wags his tail.. I always callhim over anyways and pet him and he comes with me to the bathroom while I clean the mess (on his own) then we go out and play. 

So I'm glad lalachka that you have a dog that doesn't seem to care, but that's just not the case for some of us. I know for a fact that Titan knows he does something wrong and responds to that... not only that but I can't believe that he doesn't remember things. If they didn't remember things, we would have to train them things over and over. Titan wouldn't go check all his normal hiding spots when we play his find it games or even remember me when I come home from work. Just doesn't make sense to me at all. Or maybe I misunderstood your point.


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## lalachka

My2shepherds said:


> I do not want to disrespect your views, differences of opinion are what make this forum interesting, but I do believe dogs can remember... people, places, things and actions... I believe their emotional drive is different from ours but i do believe they experience emotion..



Interesting point about people, places and actions. 

I'd like to see how people that don't believe that dogs can remember explain this one. 

I'm not sure)))) thinking about it


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## wyoung2153

lalachka said:


> Interesting point about people, places and actions.
> 
> I'd like to see how people that don't believe that dogs can remember explain this one.
> 
> I'm not sure)))) thinking about it
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Aha.. I may have misunderstood you on the remembering thing.


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## lalachka

wyoung2153 said:


> Aha.. I may have misunderstood you on the remembering thing.



No, you didn't)))
I never thought about this aspect of it. 
But I'm sure there's an explanation. I will think about it


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## LaRen616

My2shepherds said:


> LOL I used to have a black lab/pointer mix that would occaisionally eat the food out of the cat bowl. I knew she did it everytime because as soon as I came home instead of her typical "I'm so happy to see you" greeting she would slowly walk up to me head down, tail tucked and lay down at my feet. The cat bowl was in the barn and this "greeting" occured as soon as I would get out of the car in the driveway so it was in no way associated with me being in the area and her picking up on my reaction. She knew she had done wrong and was displaying that to me immediately.


My GSD does something similar to this.

He ALWAYS greets me at the door, tail wagging, whining and he does a happy dance.

But on the days that he does not greet me, I know he did something. Sometimes he will pull trash out of the bathroom trash can and he will bring it to his bed, he doesn't eat it, he just puts it on his bed. He lays there and won't make eye contact with me, in fact he will turn his head side to side and act like I do not exist. I don't say a word to him and I don't approach him. I believe he does feel guilty and he does know that he did something wrong.


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## LaRen616

lalachka said:


> First of all, they have to remember that they did something 'wrong' and I don't believe that they do.


I 100% believe that dogs DO remember. 

Dogs remember scents, they remember people, they remember other animals, they remember places, they remember their names, they remember games, they remember commands, etc. 

My GSD knows the name of each of my cats, if I yell out a specific cat's name he will go over to that exact cat and inforce my rules, lol. 

Dogs have a great memory and I do think they remember if they did something wrong, some dogs may act like they didn't do anything and like they didn't remember anything but that's just like humans, sometimes we act like we didn't do anything or we don't remember anything so that we don't get in trouble.


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## Bridget

My dog remembers and she feels all sorts of emotions. Some of this I can't prove, but that doesn't mean I don't know it to be true. 

Jean, I am really interested in your comment about dignity being what we perceive it to be (did I paraphrase correctly?). I am thinking about that concept. That may be what I was looking for with this thread.


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## my boy diesel

* I would laugh, clap, treat (not every time, and eventually stopped), pick up. So we re-framed the issue, he was mostly continent, and when not, he'd eventually look back at it like "pick it up" and then keep on going. *
this makes a huge difference
many dogs especially rescued ones have been trained with not so kind methods including nose rubbing and spankings
those are the ones who react worst it seems and understandably so

if we respond with love and understanding it makes a huge difference to them
i do not think incontinence is the be all and end all of quality of life but its how the dog responds to that incontinence

my inlaws gsd that got dm and had to be put down when they let him go it was largely due to his feelings of shame about being incontinent or whatever you want to call it

basically it was felt his dignity was gone


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## lalachka

And the dog will respond to it mimicking his owners response. 

My dog has gone on the house 20-40 times already, lots of diarrhea. I always go out of my way to pet him and say it's OK and so he doesn't think it's a big deal 


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## wyoung2153

But that may just be your dog.. if you have how many other people telling you the same exact thing who have had more than one dog.. there might be something to it.


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## lalachka

Bridget said:


> My dog remembers and she feels all sorts of emotions. Some of this I can't prove, but that doesn't mean I don't know it to be true.
> 
> Jean, I am really interested in your comment about dignity being what we perceive it to be (did I paraphrase correctly?). I am thinking about that concept. That may be what I was looking for with this thread.



IMO it goes back to us seeing what we want to see. You look at your of and you see things based on your beliefs and upbringing, I will see things based on mine. But we are looking at the same dog. 

It's all interpretation. 


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## lalachka

wyoung2153 said:


> But that may just be your dog.. if you have how many other people telling you the same exact thing who have had more than one dog.. there might be something to it.



Most people can't handle diarrhea on their floors and react accordingly


ETA good point lol. My daughter was about to punish him a few times for doing it, he was cowering and hiding. Until I told her that she can NEVER do that 

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## Lilie

lalachka said:


> First of all, they have to remember that they did something 'wrong' and I don't believe that they do.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If a dog remembers specific behaviors that we have trained for, what makes you think they couldn't remember behaviors we have corrected for?


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## lalachka

Lilie said:


> If a dog remembers specific behaviors that we have trained for, what makes you think they couldn't remember behaviors we have corrected for?



Yeah, I posted earlier, someone brought that up and I haven't thought about that. I posted that I was interested in opinions and that I'm thinking about it. 

ETA no, that's not what I'm saying. I believe they remember behaviors trained for and corrected for, they're reflexes. I just believe that if I corrected for jumping on the counter and then he jumps on the counter while I'm not home he's not going to remember that he did that 2 hours later when I come home




ETA someone did mention that they remember people, places and that's true, they do in some way. So that I'm still thinking about. 

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## My2shepherds

Bridget said:


> My dog remembers and she feels all sorts of emotions. Some of this I can't prove, but that doesn't mean I don't know it to be true.
> 
> Jean, I am really interested in your comment about dignity being what we perceive it to be (did I paraphrase correctly?). I am thinking about that concept. That may be what I was looking for with this thread.


 
I agree that the "perception of dignity or loss of is based on individual views" and I also believe it is based how we identify ourselves with our dogs. If we see one of our dogs' health fading away we do everything we can to comfort them and see to their needs... vet, medication, proper limited exercise, etc... why, because we love them, have empathy for them and do not want them to suffer.. we put ourselves in their position how would we feel? when would enough just be enough? at what point would we lose our will to live if it were us going through that situation? 

I am sure there are those that have a greater threshold than others for pain and suffering and this would vary the levels at which they would "lose diginity" over their situation. 

All in all I really do not think that certain things can be definitively explained such as dignity, love, respect and honor


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## Anubis_Star

gsdsar said:


> I don't believe dogs share the same emotions as people. Things like shame, dignity, pride, they all require that the animal have self awareness. Dogs are not self aware.
> 
> As for drugs like Prozac, it changes brain chemistry. It does not affect emotions. And I have never seen it used for depression in dogs like it is with people. It's used for anxiety.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Chemical release in the brain is what causes all forms of feelings, emotion. Which is why when those are altered the way a person feels is altered. Prozac is not just used for anxiety issues in the field it is used for a number of behavioral problems, not all related to anxiety. If prozac works on the same aspects in dogs as in humans, then it is reasonable to assume the chemical component is similar. Therefor, feelings that are then created should be similar as well.

The difference being, we have the intelligence to comprehend those feelings on a different level. Doesn't mean they aren't still felt with lower intelligence.

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## Anubis_Star

Of COURSE dogs can remember. It's how any aspect of training is done. I don't understand how that's even an argument. Same as dogs that great owners when they go away for a day, a month, get deployed for 2 years. They are still very much remembered. So does a dog remember he ate the trash 2 hours ago if he remembers his owner from 2 years ago? I'm sure he does







lalachka said:


> Interesting point about people, places and actions.
> 
> I'd like to see how people that don't believe that dogs can remember explain this one.
> 
> I'm not sure)))) thinking about it
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App




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## selzer

The dog very likely remembers that when the house smells like this, my greatest, wonderful, being gets all kinds of bad feelings going on. 

Are they thinking, gee she's going to be mad because I pooped all over the place? Maybe. Maybe it is more she is going to be mad because there is poop all over the place. Who knows. Yes, some dogs will be very worried and upset from there being poop in the house. 

My cat was a super clean cat. Constantly cleaning himself. Hairballs, ugh! Nothing like jumping up and running for the phone at night and having hairball all over your bare foot in between your toes, ick!

But when he got really bad, some form of spinal disease, he stopped cleaning himself, that was when I knew. He couldn't walk at all. I had to put him in the litter box and lift him up, and pull him out. But his lack of desire to clean his fur, that was kind of the tip off, that it was definitely time. The vet had told me to bring him back when I was ready, so I took him in the next morning. I really don't think he wanted to live like that. And it was progressively worse and worse. So it was only going down hill.


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## lalachka

Anubis_Star said:


> Of COURSE dogs can remember. It's how any aspect of training is done. I don't understand how that's even an argument. Same as dogs that great owners when they go away for a day, a month, get deployed for 2 years. They are still very much remembered. So does a dog remember he ate the trash 2 hours ago if he remembers his owner from 2 years ago? I'm sure he does
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I don't believe they do. I believe that once I'm gone he forget that I exists however he knows my smell and my looks. But he doesn't think about me while I'm gone. Once he sees me he recognizes me. 

As far as training, I believe the point of training is to develop a reflex. So I make him sit 500 times and he now has a reflex, I say sit and he sits


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## Anubis_Star

lalachka said:


> I don't believe they do. I believe that once I'm gone he forget that I exists however he knows my smell and my looks. But he doesn't think about me while I'm gone. Once he sees me he recognizes me.
> 
> As far as training, I believe the point of training is to develop a reflex. So I make him sit 500 times and he now has a reflex, I say sit and he sits
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


See I disagree about this. For example, just the fact that he recognizes you shows he remembers you. Remembering something and dwelling on something are 2 completely different things.

How then do you account for the third training session or forth or fith? Dog can't possibly have a reflex built up yet, they're not as good at the behavior, but they still do it. Or when I bring out a tug and berlin wants it, I don't give a command so he just starts doing obedience routines to try to earn in. Down, park, etc.... how is that a reflux if I haven't given a command? Yet he remembers that behavior gets rewarded.

Dogs with shock collars that become addicted meaning they only behave when the collar is on? They remember reward or lack of

Another example, I just went on vacation. My room mate told me by day 3 berlin was acting very different. Just kind of lethargic, uninterested in doing anything
Was he missing me? Who knows. But he lives with her, knows her, nothing else in his routine changed.

As well, often time in clinics, when we hospitalized a patient we bring them back and put them in a kennel. They do just fine. They lay there. They're quiet. But as soon as the owners come back, say goodbye, and leave, half the time the dogs then get super anxious, are crying, pacing, scratchinf. And this could go on for hours. It's obviously not being kenneled that's upsetting them as they'll do fine before owners come back. It's seeing the owners, then seeing the owners physically leave them, and if they then whine for hours are they not still responding to that?

As others have mentioned I simply think it's your lack of experience with dogs giving you this mindset. Your dog sounds like berlin. He just doesn't care. Heck half the time he doesn't know he's being bad, he comes and shoves the chewed up shoe in my face. There is never any "guilt" or "remorse" from him. If he was the only other dog I ever dealt with I would think the same.

But zeke, EXACT opposite. I know he's done something wrong because I walk in the door and he's hiding in my room. How is he going off my reaction if he's not even physically present when I walk in the door and I can't see the trash in the bathroom he got in to? 

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## sparra

lalachka said:


> I don't believe they do. I believe that once I'm gone he forget that I exists however he knows my smell and my looks. But he doesn't think about me while I'm gone.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well my dogs used to wait for me at the bus stop everyday when I was going to school......pretty sure they were thinking about me while I was gone


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## lalachka

I don't know exactly what goes on in their brains but I can't believe that they have memories. Yeah, they know certain people, places, know how to do certain things but I will never believe that a dog remembered that he peed in the house a few hours ago. 

Second and third training session. I guess it depends on how you train. I lure, so the 2nd and third time I'm still luring. By then he knows that when he sees my hand move a certain way - he should sit. 

When they offer behaviors that's because they have a reflex that this behavior got them a treat in the past. 


My dog does care when he does bad things, he only doesn't care about pooping in the house because I went out of my way to show him that this is OK to do. 

But if he chases the cat or gets up after I told him to sit - he def knows he did something that he wasn't supposed to. But 2 mins later it's forgotten. Once he sees that I let it go - he stops trying to kiss up. 

I believe that dogs know when they do something they shouldn't've done. I just don't believe that they remember they did something wrong after a minute or two passed. 

Once they moved on to something else - the previous incident is forgotten. 





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## lalachka

sparra said:


> Well my dogs used to wait for me at the bus stop everyday when I was going to school......pretty sure they were thinking about me while I was gone



I don't know why but I'm sure someone who knows dogs well can explain)))))


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## sparra

Ever seen a dog bury a bone and then dig it up months later???
Our dogs do it all the time.......we live on a farm and they bury them in all different places......they remember exactly where they buried them.


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## lalachka

sparra said:


> Ever seen a dog bury a bone and then dig it up months later???
> Our dogs do it all the time.......we live on a farm and they bury them in all different places......they remember exactly where they buried them.



lol smell?

But what are you saying, dogs have memories just like we do?


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## sparra

lalachka said:


> I don't know why but I'm sure someone who knows dogs well can explain)))))
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't need someone to explain......it makes perfect sense to me......you just need to believe


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## sparra

No.....not smell. Our dogs bury bones out in our paddocks. They are not out there sniffing around. They go STRAIGHT to where they buried it EVERY time.....they can't smell it from 200m away.
Yes of cause dogs have memories......I'm surprised you would question this.


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## lalachka

sparra said:


> I don't need someone to explain......it makes perfect sense to me......you just need to believe



Exactly)))) it's all about believing. If I want to believe that my dog thinks like I do I will find many examples. The way he looked at me, the way he licked me when I was in a bad mood, the way he approached me after he chased the cat a half hour ago and so on. 

But it's more believable to me that they don't have memories in the way we do (remembering what happened now, an hour ago, a year ago) and don't have emotions in the way we do. 



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## Romany

I personally feel that each dog has it's own Idea of Dignity and it would vary from one dog to the next.


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## Anubis_Star

lalachka said:


> lol smell?
> 
> But what are you saying, dogs have memories just like we do?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


see that's just now a mindset, if they don't do it like US they can't possibly do it. It's getting caught up on definitions and technicalities...

No, they don't have the intelligence to comprehend like us. Of course they do not function like us. But, if a dog recognizes you 2 years later, it has remembered you. In fact, recognize is a synonym for remember...

As well, sitting on the second training session for the treat is not a reflex, as a reflex is automatic without a conscious thought. Now if you're still luring, your dog doesn't yet get it. But if you're past the luring stage, you say "sit", your dog takes a few seconds but then gets it. That's not a reflex. Not automatic. Not muscle memory.


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## Bridget

The author, Jon Katz, whom I love and hate in turn, believes that dogs have no sense of time. He tells about beagles who were only let out of their pen once a year to go hunting, but are well taken care of. He suggests that they really don't know the difference. To me, this is a ridiculous idea. Dogs don't look at clocks, nor do they know whether you are 5 minutes late feeding them or 10 minutes late. But they certainly know if it's been a long time. 

As far as consciousness is concerned, I think our dogs are conscious of everything, just at a different level than we are, mostly because of their lack of verbal language. I don't think they have the ability (or the curse perhaps) to "compare." Like for instance, I used to feel guilty if I took one dog out for a romp two days in a row and didn't take another as often. Then I realized that Heidi isn't sitting there saying to herself "WTF, she took Cori yesterday too and I haven't been out since Sunday!" But she knows "never;" if I took Cori all the time and never took her, she would know. It's a lower consciousness to be sure, but they are still conscious.''

I also think, just as some folks project their desire that their dog be a child, that others project a desire that their dog not know much, maybe because it makes life easier in some ways, especially when we lose them. After all, if they don't remember us anyway, then it isn't so sad.

Lalachka, that thing you said about telling your dog it's ok to poop in the house cracked me up! I understand your meaning, but it still struck me kind of funny.


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## SunCzarina

Morgan was a proud lady. When she was 11her DM made it so she'd get up to tell me she had to go out to poop but opps, she already was pooping. DM messes up the signals to the brain. She always looked so ashamed she'd pooped in the house.

I didn't let her progress with the DM to the point she couldn't walk. She didn't want to leave me, her mind was still as it has always been, loyal and determined. Her last month was hard for me to see the frustration when her body just wouldn't do what she wanted it to. We made that last month grand doing the things she could still do. She was exhausted all the time but happy (and high, very high)


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## Sabis mom

Bridget said:


> I wanted to post this question in the weekly discussion area, but only a moderator can do that. I have a quality of life scale thingy that I look at often these days, and one of the statements is that a dog would not want to live without dignity. But what, in your opinion, is dignity? Clearly, it is difficult to describe, yet we know it when we see it. I would love to hear people's thoughts and give examples too.
> 
> The definition that I am beginning to formulate is being a real dog and doing the things that dogs do. And I think a dog can have help/accommodations to do these things, such as help getting outside, without a loss of dignity. But if the help has run its course, then maybe it could be a loss of dignity issue. Please share with me your thoughts about dignity.


Sabi was my world so this is something I thought long and hard about. As her DM got to the point where she needed help getting around, I listened to stories about carts and slings and diapers. I needed to take a serious look at my dog. She was annoyed at being helped into the car, she was irritated when I offered help if she stumbled. Using the bathroom in my presence was not ok with her, accidents in the house upset her, a diaper would have mortified her. I guess some dogs would be ok with being cared for in that way, she would have been mortally offended. To me, and for my dog, not being independent and strong was a loss of dignity. It was killing me to watch, and she was miserable. I made the decision to stop before it progressed. For her it was the right decision, another dog may require a different one. Know thy dog.


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## lalachka

Bridget, lol, yeah I know))))) it's funny to me too. Lol potty training undone. Poor thing probably thinks I'm confused. 


I just so don't want him to feel bad about it that I almost go overboard with it))))

The thought that he's trying to hold diarrhea bothers me. 

Also, what's interesting, somehow he still knows not to go in the house.


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## lalachka

Anubis_Star said:


> see that's just now a mindset, if they don't do it like US they can't possibly do it. It's getting caught up on definitions and technicalities...
> 
> No, they don't have the intelligence to comprehend like us. Of course they do not function like us. But, if a dog recognizes you 2 years later, it has remembered you. In fact, recognize is a synonym for remember...
> 
> As well, sitting on the second training session for the treat is not a reflex, as a reflex is automatic without a conscious thought. Now if you're still luring, your dog doesn't yet get it. But if you're past the luring stage, you say "sit", your dog takes a few seconds but then gets it. That's not a reflex. Not automatic. Not muscle memory.



They have some learning abilities for sure. I mean they remember scents, sounds, dogs, people. They recognize places. 

I don't believe they remember things they did 10 mins ago in the way that we do. Like he's not sitting there remembering how he played with his friend a few hours ago. 

And he doesn't remember that he raided the garbage can a few hours ago. So I don't believe that when I come home he automatically remembers everything he's done wrong when I was gone and then acts guilty about it. 


About training. If we are not trying to get a reflex then why all the repetitions and generalizing commands? I thought it was so that they develop a reflex. They hear come and the reflex is to come. 

But I don't know. I'm not a dog mind expert by far)))))) these are just my guesses 


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## Anubis_Star

lalachka said:


> They have some learning abilities for sure. I mean they remember scents, sounds, dogs, people. They recognize places.
> 
> I don't believe they remember things they did 10 mins ago in the way that we do. Like he's not sitting there remembering how he played with his friend a few hours ago.
> 
> And he doesn't remember that he raided the garbage can a few hours ago. So I don't believe that when I come home he automatically remembers everything he's done wrong when I was gone and then acts guilty about it.
> 
> 
> About training. If we are not trying to get a reflex then why all the repetitions and generalizing commands? I thought it was so that they develop a reflex. They hear come and the reflex is to come.
> 
> But I don't know. I'm not a dog mind expert by far)))))) these are just my guesses
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well no you DO want to build a reflex. But building a reflux comes out of remembering the command

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## lalachka

Anubis_Star said:


> Well no you DO want to build a reflex. But building a reflux comes out of remembering the command
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



OK, maybe they do))))) I can agree with that

But I can't agree with them remembering what they did an hour ago. 

Also, about him forgetting that I exist in response to Bridgit. 

I'm not trying to take away qualities from my dog so it's easier to lose him. Nothing will make it easier, even if he's blind, deaf and dumb. I just like to be honest with myself when I can and I think that means realizing that he forgets I exist when I'm not there. 

Also, he has SA. If he does forget I exists then that means he's not suffering and I know he's not because I have a camera for him. 

If I feed him right before I leave - the time that takes him to eat the food is always enough to forget that I left or that I existed. Once he's done he is calm and sleeps all day. 

If I don't feed him he will bark for a while and I have 2 possible explanations. 1. He's in a frenzy and just barking though not sure why
2. It's still the same episode, I believe they remember what happens until they move on. Like if he was home with a pull tab and no leash, he did something wrong, I said no and followed him so I can pop the prong. It can take me 2 mins to catch up to him but it's still the same episode so I believe he will associate the pop with the no


Again, I might be wrong about everything, Just my observations and stuff I read


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## Bridget

This conversation has been really good for me and clearly I had personal reasons for starting it. I don't agree with everything about dog's awareness, but the idea that we may project our idea of dignity on our dog does resonate with me. I am thinking that a) because we are human we can't help it, and b) it doesn't really matter anyhow; dignity is what it is no matter where it's coming from. The conclusion I have come to, for myself and my dog only, is that when her hips completely give out and she is dragging her back end, that will be when dignity is an issue for us and when "it's time." In other circumstances, I would be open to trying a cart, but for an old dog, no.


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