# Brand new GSD pup with health issues...help!



## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

Three days ago, I picked up my 9 week old $1500 GSD puppy from the breeder. While we were there, she told me that he had been losing fur on his tummy and she knew this was because he had an allergy to grain. She sent me home with grain-free food, instructions to supplement his diet with condensed milk, cottage cheese, and yogurt, and the puppy. He seemed okay for a few hours. That night, he began to have terrible diarrea that included mucus and blood. We took him to the vet Monday evening. The vet told us there was no way to know he had a grain allergy yet, and that all the dairy could be too much for him to handle. She diagnosed him with a yeast ear infection and coccidia, and sent me home with special shampoo for his itchiness, Hill's bland wet food, and a number of meds including Albon for the coccidia. Frustrated, I called the breeder, who told me that she "knew" the grain was the issue because of his bloodline, and that we should not have changed his diet again. So, the breeder is telling me the vet is wrong, the vet is telling me the breeder is wrong, the puppy now will not eat, drink or take his meds, and I don't know what to do. The breeder told me I could return him, but I really don't want to as I have bonded with him. I'm a first time dog owner and really don't know how to handle any of this. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

listen to your Vet and to some of the advice you'll get here.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with the vet.

Why in the H is this breeder reproducing a dog with known allergies???? 
It ticks me off that they are doing this, and you bet if I bought a pup without that fact being revealed, I'd be returning the pup asap. Let them deal with the problem they bred. Sorry for this insensitive rant, but I deal with an allergy dog daily and it is a PIA....
I'd be asking for a refund and go elsewhere for a puppy. Do it now, because three days is nothing compared to many years of $ going into vetting and watching your dog be miserable....just because someone decided to overlook the fact that allergies are ok to carry on. 
Not many young puppies will even show allergies, so I think there are other things going on. Auto immune or other problems? Ask the breeder what else may be going on with her lines.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree a little more with your vet then your breeder at this point. Albon would take care of coccidia -- your vet checked for that? 

First off, the breeder probably shouldn't be breeding a dog whose lines have serious grain allergies. Serious being that puppies will be losing hair at 9 weeks old. 

Secondly, if she was aware of a grain-allergy than why was she feeding the bitch and pups that grain? 

Third, cow's milk and bitch's milk is very different, so young puppies given cow's milk will often get bad diarrhea. Not fun. But the overage of dairy could be causing problems. I do give yogurt, condensed milk, cottage cheese to the bitch when she is whelping or lactating. That is different. If you were feeding a grain-free food, your calcium would probably already be high for GSD puppies, adding the yogurt, cottage cheese and milk, would put your calcium phosphorous ration out of wack. 

Breeders will tell you that after a run of antibiotics you should give the dog some Dannon's Yogurt to replace the good bacteria in the digestive tract. I have no problem with that. 

Your puppy has a problem, probably a couple of problems while you were following the breeder's advice. I would go with the vet now.

Actually, coccidia levels are something pups generally have, but stress will make it flare up and give the diarrhea. It can be the stress of a new family, different water source, loss of the protection of the litter. And Albon is what is used to treat it. I don't like the blood and mucus, but if your vet is not concerned about that, then it is probably not a worse problem. 

The vet wanted you to go to a bland diet which can make digestive upsets less problematic. Hills is Science Diet, and they say the prescription diets are better than the food itself, but I probably would have passed on the Hills and fed the dog boiled chicken and brown rice for a few days and then slowly move the puppy onto a decent food. 

Your choices are to return the puppy, and there may be good reason to do so. I do not like that allergy crap where a nine week old pup is losing hair. But if you don't want to do that, I would go with your vet. I don't like the breeder's advice on what to feed a young growing puppy.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I would go with the vets advice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with the vet.
> 
> Why in the H is this breeder reproducing a dog with known allergies????
> It ticks me off that they are doing this, and you bet if I bought a pup without that fact being revealed, I'd be returning the pup asap. Let them deal with the problem they bred. Sorry for this insensitive rant, but I deal with an allergy dog daily and it is a PIA....
> ...


Nine week old puppies immune systems are usually not mature, this is why demodex hits puppies. This could be demodex, but for it to be causing hair loss already, I don't know. And, usually demodex hits the limbs and the face, not usually the belly.


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

The breeder is not making a whole lot of sense. She said the dog has allergy to grain, and that was what was causing him to lose fur. Was she feeding him food with grain knowing he was allergic?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And by 8 weeks puppies really do not need milk-products. A little yogurt after a run of antibiotics for a few days. But regular milk should not be necessary. Cheese as a treat is ok. 

Hard boiled eggs -- very good. 

Raw bones to chew on -- good

Meat raw or cooked -- good, but if the pup is having an issue right now, boil the meat and remove the bones and broth. So that you are not giving a lot of fat. 

Cheese -- ok in moderation

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm not talking about the puppy's immune system but the dogs the breeder is reproducing. Hair loss on the abdomen isn't usually mange, but something else going on.
I agree with the milk products....not something I'd be giving a young pup.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

Zookeep said:


> The breeder is not making a whole lot of sense. She said the dog has allergy to grain, and that was what was causing him to lose fur. Was she feeding him food with grain knowing he was allergic?


 
She told me that when he started losing fur, they realized he had the grain intolerance or allergy or whatever, so they switched him to grain free food then.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How many pups were in the litter, and were others having similar symptoms? Were the pups raised outside, in the home, what was the environment?


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

Unfortunately for me, I am coming to terms with the fact that I did not pick a good breeder. I'm struggling with the fact that I just feel awful at the thought of bringing this poor dog back. It's not his fault, he is just a sweet little puppy. And I wouldn't mind if I had to feed him grain free and that was really it, I'm just concerned that it could be so much worse.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am thinking that the hair loss could be from unsanitary conditions, it could be from having them on the floor after using cleaning chemicals, it could be from rubbing against a wire grate, it could be from bathing the pup in a harsh/medicated shampoo. Lots of things I guess. 

I brought up mange only because of the immune system stuff. I did not think it should be on the belly. I don't know this is a complaint I haven't run across -- losing hair on the belly. What did the vet say about the hair loss?


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> How many pups were in the litter, and were others having similar symptoms? Were the pups raised outside, in the home, what was the environment?


I'm not sure exactly how many were in the litter, but at least 5 or 6 I think. The breeder did not mention whether others were having the same issue. The pups were raised in sort of a barn/nursery. I never actually saw the inside of it, just a customer visiting area. My fault for not being more thorough!


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

selzer said:


> I am thinking that the hair loss could be from unsanitary conditions, it could be from having them on the floor after using cleaning chemicals, it could be from rubbing against a wire grate, it could be from bathing the pup in a harsh/medicated shampoo. Lots of things I guess.
> 
> I brought up mange only because of the immune system stuff. I did not think it should be on the belly. I don't know this is a complaint I haven't run across -- losing hair on the belly. What did the vet say about the hair loss?


The vet said the fur issue could be due to an imbalanced diet. She said he was too young to do any testing for allergies anyway, and the Hill's food has grain in it. So, if the breeder is right, I'm probably making it worse by giving the HIll's. Sigh.


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## lilLostduckie (Jan 22, 2013)

This all sounds very questionable to me. First off, why is she breeding a dog with serious allergies? Second of all, why is she sending you home with a possibly ill puppy for that high of a price? Third of all, why is this allergy causing hair loss so quickly? It sounds more like a thyroid or genetic disease to me, and she is trying to play it off. 

I know it sounds awful, but I think you are better off returning the puppy. When we first got our baby, we had serious health problems with her. We were over $2000 in before the end of the first month. For something this serious to occur so early, you are looking at a very expensive pup. There is nothing wrong with that, but you have to ask yourself if you are prepared to deal with a chronically ill pet. That may be restrictions on what they are capable of doing throughout their life, and even a short lifespan. It is a very serious commitment, especially for a first-time dog. 

I would even consider getting a refund and going to someone else, she doesn't sound as if she is a good breeder to me. You never want to breed something unhealthy into the next generation, that is how breeds deteriorate. 

It is so hard when you fall in love with them, but just think how much more fun to be able to have a healthy puppy keep up with you and have a full life. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ya know what? I bought my first GSD from a guy who raised the litter under a parked car in the drive and in his garage -- not the best guy. 

No one is faulting you for the breeder. And it isn't the pup's fault that he has issues. 

Now, the hair loss was there when you purchased him? Did she point it out? If she did, then maybe she is not an ogre. 

The longer you keep the pup, the harder it will be to give him back. If you do want to give this an opportunity to resolve -- I would not return a dog for coccidia. But the allergy thing can be very painful, or it can be no big thing -- if you can figure it out.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

selzer said:


> Ya know what? I bought my first GSD from a guy who raised the litter under a parked car in the drive and in his garage -- not the best guy.
> 
> No one is faulting you for the breeder. And it isn't the pup's fault that he has issues.
> 
> ...


Yes, she mentioned the hair loss when we picked him up. She said it was due to the grain allergy, and that is why they had started him on grain free. She also said something about how it was puppy fur so it might not come back until the adult fur comes in.


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## lilLostduckie (Jan 22, 2013)

P.S. Willas's "breeder" wasn't what we thought, in retrospect should NEVER have kept her, or gotten her. But she is our 3rd dog, and my brother is a vet. Daily medication, special diet, etc., but I work from home so I can do that. You have todo what is right for YOU. If you are worried to give the pup back, maybe report them to a local SPCA and have them investigated, might be the best case for not only your pup but every dog there. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

SXR said:


> Yes, she mentioned the hair loss when we picked him up.* She said it was due to the grain allergy, and that is why they had started him on grain free.* She also said something about how it was puppy fur so it might not come back until the adult fur comes in.


This is what got me hot! Coccidia is a given with pups, and I don't fault a breeder for that or giardia, worms or other parasites...you treat for that and it clears. But to knowingly breed dogs with food sensitivities is just not right. You paid a fair amount for this pup, if you do decide to keep him, just know the initial cost will be nothing compared to what may lie ahead.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lilLostduckie said:


> P.S. Willas's "breeder" wasn't what we thought, in retrospect should NEVER have kept her, or gotten her. But she is our 3rd dog, and my brother is a vet. Daily medication, special diet, etc., but I work from home so I can do that. You have todo what is right for YOU. If you are worried to give the pup back, maybe report them to a local SPCA and have them investigated, might be the best case for not only your pup but every dog there.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is something I would not do without any evidence. ANY dog from ANY breeder can have health or temperament issues. If you SAW something ILLEGAL, than sick AC on them. But if you are unhappy because after you agreed to take a dog with an issue, and now that issue is not exactly what you thought, but the breeder has offered to have you return the dog, calling AC on her is I think way over the top.

Maybe every breeder should just keep every pup the breed because if they sell any dog with a fault or a problem, even if they point it out, someone is going to get upset and call in the calvary. If the breeder was totally unresponsive, then it might be a different story, but I think that coccidia is not a reason to return a dog, and you took the dog with the health concern disclosed. Now you have to decide whether she tried to deceive you, or if she really thinks this is a grain-free issue. She may have had a pup that had the exact symptoms and was able to clean it up by doing what she told you to do. 

No the vet cannot test for allergies, but it is possible that allergy problems are in the line and she does know it. That would NOT be a job for AC though. There is no law against breeding a dog with an issue. We may not like it, but that is not illegal. 

I really think calling the cops is way over-board here.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

selzer said:


> This is something I would not do without any evidence. ANY dog from ANY breeder can have health or temperament issues. If you SAW something ILLEGAL, than sick AC on them. But if you are unhappy because after you agreed to take a dog with an issue, and now that issue is not exactly what you thought, but the breeder has offered to have you return the dog, calling AC on her is I think way over the top.
> 
> Maybe every breeder should just keep every pup the breed because if they sell any dog with a fault or a problem, even if they point it out, someone is going to get upset and call in the calvary. If the breeder was totally unresponsive, then it might be a different story, but I think that coccidia is not a reason to return a dog, and you took the dog with the health concern disclosed. Now you have to decide whether she tried to deceive you, or if she really thinks this is a grain-free issue. She may have had a pup that had the exact symptoms and was able to clean it up by doing what she told you to do.
> 
> ...


To be quite honest, I am more concerned about this puppy's health and trying to make the super difficult decision about what to do with him than trying to report or punish the breeder, who has apparently been in business for 40 years. I don't think they did anything illegal, although I do think they should have made sure he was healthy before they sold him to me. I agree that the parasite is not a good reason to return him. I'm just scared he could have chronic health problems, as he has not had a great record so far.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

SXR said:


> To be quite honest, I am more concerned about this puppy's health and trying to make the super difficult decision about what to do with him than trying to report or punish the breeder, who has apparently been in business for 40 years. I don't think they did anything illegal, although I do think they should have made sure he was healthy before they sold him to me. I agree that the parasite is not a good reason to return him. I'm just scared he could have chronic health problems, as he has not had a great record so far.


To clarify, I mean that I just want to get him healthy at this point. He won't eat or drink or take his meds, and is pretty lethargic.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did the vet vaccinate puppy? 
Could be the reason for the lethargy....cooked scrambled egg is good, bland and nutritious, try that? Sneak in the meds with the eggs.
Talk to the breeder and ask for complete transparency with the dogs they are breeding. IF you decide to keep the pup, it's best to know exactly what health issues the parents have passed along. Support the immune system and do a minimal vaccine protocol(make sure you separate out the rabies from other vax's) Get pup on a good diet(raw?) and maybe you'll end up with a healthy pup. Temperament is the other issue, so hopefully puppy is outgoing, confident and of steller nerves.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SXR said:


> To be quite honest, I am more concerned about this puppy's health and trying to make the super difficult decision about what to do with him than trying to report or punish the breeder, who has apparently been in business for 40 years. I don't think they did anything illegal, although I do think they should have made sure he was healthy before they sold him to me. I agree that the parasite is not a good reason to return him. I'm just scared he could have chronic health problems, as he has not had a great record so far.


It is a hard decision. 

Here's the thing. She may have had a pup with allergies before. This can be a new thing in her lines. She may not know if it was the sire or the dam that contributed that. She may not have bred the same mix again. But you wouldn't necessarily not breed either again if you have a problem. You might want to figure out which dog or what mix of dogs might be causing the issue.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Did the vet vaccinate puppy?
> Could be the reason for the lethargy....cooked scrambled egg is good, bland and nutritious, try that? Sneak in the meds with the eggs.
> Talk to the breeder and ask for complete transparency with the dogs they are breeding. IF you decide to keep the pup, it's best to know exactly what health issues the parents have passed along. Support the immune system and do a minimal vaccine protocol(make sure you separate out the rabies from other vax's) Get pup on a good diet(raw?) and maybe you'll end up with a healthy pup. Temperament is the other issue, so hopefully puppy is outgoing, confident and of steller nerves.


No vaccines at the vet on Monday (and that was Monday). He was in good spirits Monday evening, yesterday and this morning. This afternoon he just slept, didn't cry when we put him in his gated area, and won't touch food (or peanut butter, or cheese, or cat food!). He just had a little water, so that is good at least.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Call the vet tomorrow and tell him that the pup is not eating the food and is lethargic. He may want to see the puppy again. 

Check the puppy for dehydration. Puppies can dehydrate quickly. if you pull the skin at the back of the neck it should spring back into place. Check the gums for refill. Press on the gum and it will become whitish and see if it comes back to pink. If the dog is starting to get dehydrated you might want to go with pedialyte, and you may want to take the pup's temperature and make a choice on whether to take the pup to an ER. 

Pup's temperature should be 101.5 - 102.5 if it is around 104 or higher, I think you should call your vet's emergency number and go to an ER if necessary. 

Eggs are some of the easiest to digest and best protein. I usually break the eggs and put them in a small bowl and nuke them, so that I am not adding butter or grease, which can be hard on the digestive tract. I like the idea of offering eggs. If the albon is liquid, that stuff puppies seem to like ok.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

selzer said:


> It is a hard decision.
> 
> Here's the thing. *She may have had a pup with allergies before. This can be a new thing in her lines. She may not know if it was the sire or the dam that contributed that.* She may not have bred the same mix again. But you wouldn't necessarily not breed either again if you have a problem. You might want to figure out which dog or what mix of dogs might be causing the issue.


She knew it was from the grandfather somehow. (The Dam's father.) She claimed she had seen the grain issue before in other pups from his line. She also claimed that she had no dogs with other allergy issues. If she's right and this is a simple fix (no grain), I wouldn't bat an eyelash. It just sucks that there is no real way for me to know at this point.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Can you post a picture of the pups belly so we can see?


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## lilLostduckie (Jan 22, 2013)

Sorry, didn't mean to immediately alert the authorities, I meant if you are really thinking something is iffy, worrying, etc., then it isn't out out of the question. 

Willa wasn't interested in eggs, but we had some luck with boiled chicken when her appetite went down. I would worry most about dehydration, appetites can be varying based on how he is feeling, as can energy levels. Check hydration levels by examining the gums, they should be red/pink and wet. If he is dehydrated you should consult the vet, IMO. That is what we were told to monitor in her earlier weeks and first health scares. 


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Just curious why she didnt' tell you before you came to pick the pup up?
My puppy was limping on her leg a week before she was coming home and I got a phone call alerting me that if it didn't get better she would find me a new pup (leg was totally fine btw).

How long was the hair loss going on?


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Return it to the breeder.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Before we jump on the breeder bashing bandwagon, I know more than one "reputable" (lol that word) breeder that has bred dogs with food sensitivities because there were other desired traits that justified the breeding - you folks probably know of these people too! (probably recommended them as well!  ) I have heard "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" phrase more than a few times on here in regards to excusing various shortcomings so lets reserve judgement for now as none of us truly know both sides of the story. I am not advocating for either side - just cautioning before this thread takes off on the runaway train to self-righteousness....

OP: I am very sorry that your puppy is having problems. As hard as it can be, it might be better to return this pup - yes, it can be difficult, but you will bond just as well to a healthy pup without the health issues that you seem to be struggling with...

Also - the breeder is being open about why the puppy is having issues. AND they have offered to take the pup back - hardly what I call out and out "shady".


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I think this pup is very fortunate to have you. I don't envy you having some decisions to make about what this pup might cost, considering the poor breeding. I think, at the least, you should be refunded your purchase price. 

You say you have bonded with this pup. And I think the pup is going to need a dedicated owner. That's a good match 

I agree with others that you should follow your vet's advice. With one exception. I wasted a great deal of money and my dogs' health benefits on Hill's. We solved several issues when we switched to a raw diet. 

That's something to consider, but in the meantime, I completely agree with the suggestion that you put your pup on chicken and rice. Simple, natural food works wonders. 


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if he's not eating, lethargic this morning, I would take him BACK to the vet.

Have you tried giving him the grain free food from the breeder since he won't eat at this point? I would, minus the milk products. If he 'goes' for the grain fed food, personally, I would get rid of the HIlls, feed him the food the breeder gave you, (again minus the milk products),,The coccidia could have riled up his gut, , that could have been the cause of the diarhea etc. Keep up with the meds for the coccidia that the vet gave you.

I don't think at this young age anyone could say the dog has allergies, it could be puppy pyoderma, it could be mites, could be anything.

I also like the suggestion of going with chicken & rice , let his gut settle. BUT if he's not acting right, I would have him back at the vets pronto!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I strongly disagree with breeding dogs known to produce pups with allergies. I know it's not uncommon, & that even breeders considered 'good' by many do it, but I remain adamantly opposed to it. Too many dogs & their people suffer for years struggling to get the issues under control. Often dogs inclined to be hyper allergic become sensitized to more & more throughout their lives. Frustrating. Expensive. Agonizing. And can be indirectly life threatening b/c overwhelmed, financially drained owners have all too often finally given the dog up or had him euthanized.

SXR, I truly feel for you in this. I think all of us here do. I think you should seriously consider returning this pup & letting it be the breeders problem. IF it's a problem in the lines she might well know the best way to deal with it. IF dealing with it is a struggle she might reconsider some of her breeding choices. You have bonded but that bond can be unbelievably strained when your pup is increasingly miserable, chewing herself apart, unable to enjoy or participate in the activities we love sharing with our dogs, trains & concentrates poorly b/c she's so wretched & of course racking up thousands in vet bills that all too often produce little to no results.

It's also very concering that this pup sounds as though she might have other health issues which could be serious. Healthy pups simply aren't lethargic & uninterested in food.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

9 weeks old wow, so sorry. I can only give you advise from my experience dealing with allergies. I also bonded very quickly to my dog. If your decision is to keep your pup and allergies are the culprit, test and treat as early as possible. I wouldn't start throwing different foods at the dog, in fact, the opposite should be looked at. It is a huge commitment and expense at first but finally seeing treatments work and your dog comfortable is priceless. My dog showed signs around 6 months old but many said that's too young for accurate allergy diagnosis. Hogwash, i wish i would have started shots then. We went thru 2 yrs of steroids, benadryl and tears. Finally started allergy shots and got my beautiful, comfortable dog back.


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Dealing with a dog who has severe allergies is very time consuming as well as financially draining. I vicariously deal with it as my parents' dog (non-GSD) has very severe food and some enviromental allergies. His allergies manifest as ear problems, hair falling out in spots, dull coat, and gastric problems. They would switch foods to something "allergy friendly" and within a month or two, they had to find something else. They are now fresh cooking all of his meals, supplementing with raw meaty bones, some raw foods, and supplements and he's a completely different dog...much happier now. The vet bills were insane; they use a very old school vet who's prices are extremely fair, but they easily spend several thousand dollars a year on this med or that, emergency vet visits when the good food decides it's not going to be good anymore, allergy shots, 50$ bags of food they didn't get even a quarter of the way through before they have to buy a different one...ect.

It's also very emotionally draining. There's nothing that'll pull on your heartstrings more to see the pup you love dearly suffering with an allergy flare up (nothing like having to tie socks with cut in half tennis balls in the bottoms to your dogs' paws because the dog is scratching so hard he's drawing blood and you're praying for the Benadryl to kick in) or doing all the things the vet told you to do and the situation got worse. Allergy problems are a constant trial and error until you get it right. You could get extremely lucky and figure it out in the first few months, or you could be working on it for years.

Now, for all we know, the allergies were enviromental and now removed from them, the puppy will perk up and be fine, but seeing your last post about the lethargy, that's unlikely at the moment. I wish I could give you advice on if to keep or give back the pup, but I'm completely torn on that one.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I would just want to make sure this is really a allergy issue. What if the breeder is assuming this is the case? Isn't it kind of odd for a puppy to have a food allergy at 8-9 weeks? I don't know...

It would stink if the OP returned this pup when maybe all it has is a rash.

However, the lathergy and not eating is very concerning. Hopefully the pup is being seen by the vet.


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## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

Return the pup and get your money ASAP!


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Emerygsd, 
at 9 weeks, i absolutely agree. But, 
If op decides to keep please understand it is what it is and move on with a plan of action. Holding on to the blame game won't help your dog or yourself. Stuff happens to the best of dogs, breeder's,and buyers. All you can do is notify and keep your breeder updated on diagnosis.


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## yote54 (Nov 22, 2011)

I agree with the others especially regarding the Hill's food. It's simply poison to German Shepherds. Go grain-free like Acana or Orijen or Fromm if you prefer to feed kibble. A lethargic pup? I brought my Jethro home at four months and he has kept me on my toes since and never missed a meal until I fed Bravo!. I followed the directions but he just never cared for it. Now I just bring home meat from the store and feed a raw meal separate from kibble every once in awhile and my two dogs love it! I have been blessed with no allergies in my dogs over the years and hope to keep it that way. There are so many good people with a wealth of experience on this site. Take what you need and leave the rest.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

*Personally*...I have never seen a puppy at such a young age have a food allergy....The fur/hair missing from the under belly can be caused by misc reasons, ie... environment, fungus, bacteria infection,,, etc..etc..

Coccidia (unfortunately) has become a pretty common parasite in young puppies.....and will exhibit symptoms under times of stress. *vaccinations, dewormings, new homes, new diet*....
Keep your vet informed on the puppy's behaviour.....not eating and being lethargic, are the "during & after" signs of Coccidia and/or Giardia....amongst other things...
ALSO....keep contact with your breeder. They NEED to be informed about what is going on & the proper diagnosis.
I am sorry this has happened to you....


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> *Personally*...I have never seen a puppy at such a young age have a food allergy....The fur/hair missing from the under belly can be caused by misc reasons, ie... environment, fungus, bacteria infection,,, etc..etc..
> 
> Coccidia (unfortunately) has become a pretty common parasite in young puppies.....and will exhibit symptoms under times of stress. *vaccinations, dewormings, new homes, new diet*....
> Keep your vet informed on the puppy's behaviour.....not eating and being lethargic, are the "during & after" signs of Coccidia and/or Giardia....amongst other things...
> ...


Robin, thank you for posting!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally, the lethargy would concern me the most. An 8 week old pup does sleep a lot but when they're awake they should be darting around, vocal, getting into all kinds of trouble  Even if somehow a dog this young did have a food allergy, I don't think that would make the dog lethargic and refusing food. I don't have any food allergy dogs but I've got one with a more sensitive gut (not a GSD, a mix) but he will still eat *anything* even the foods that would make him feel sick. I guess my course of action would be to forget the breeder said anything about an allergy. Go to the vet and look at the symptoms you have (the hair loss, lethargy, food refusal) and go from there. Maybe it is something else altogether.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

First, thank you all so much for your thoughts and advice. I am pretty overwhelmed and think that vets should hand out xanax with the dog meds. The puppy was NOT doing well last night, as I mentioned. He was slurping a bit of water thank goodness, but no food. My husband was able to force down the 2nd dose of coccidia meds, again, thank goodness. I stopped trying the Hill's food this morning too. Gave him the grain free from the breeder mixed with a little cat food (her suggestion), and the puppy ate a little breakfast. Also gave him some pedialyte. We called the vet and will bring him back later if they ask us to. For now, he seems improved. 

As for the issue of returning him, I am SOOO conflicted. I don't mind spending money on special food, but I do mind if the dog becomes chronically ill and can't be the GSD he is supposed to be. No way to tell at this point, I think. To further complicate things, the breeder was admitted to the hospital this morning. She has not yet charged me for this dog. I am considering keeping him and requesting that they just give him to me in light of the all the potential expenses down the road.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Robin, the underlying issues can be a result of the coccidia as with anything else.

Glad he's doing a little better.. Since you haven't paid for him yet, I would ask the breeder if you can hold off on payment for 30 days to see how things develop..IF I kept the puppy, well I would pay them 'something', depending on the outcome of that 30 day period..

Please keep us updated on how he progresses!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

SXR said:


> To further complicate things, the breeder was admitted to the hospital this morning. She has not yet charged me for this dog. I am considering keeping him and requesting that they just give him to me in light of the all the potential expenses down the road.


If your pup has a simple food allergy, then there shouldn't be 'potential expenses' down the road. You would just purchase grain free kibble (unless you decide to feed raw). No more expensive than buying a good kibble. 

I might have missed it, but what does your pup's poop look like now?


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

Lilie said:


> If your pup has a simple food allergy, then there shouldn't be 'potential expenses' down the road. You would just purchase grain free kibble (unless you decide to feed raw). No more expensive than buying a good kibble.
> 
> I might have missed it, but what does your pup's poop look like now?


He still has diarrea. It has gone from very watery with mucus and a little blood (Sunday night), to very dark brown and solid (yesterday morning), and lately less watery but more like melted ice cream consistency (yesterday night and this morning). I hope you're right that there would be no other expenses...that is basically what the breeder is saying. I just wish I knew for sure.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lilie, if the pup has a 'simple food allergy' that could well be true but it's difficult to know if that's the case. There are waaay too many dogs that are hyper allergenic & just accumulate sensitivities, intolerances & allergies. Grain today...chicken tomorrow...grass & fleas & dust mites next week, then beef & soy & on & on & on. If this pup has grain allergies, it's especially disturbing to see him affected so young & so strongly. IF SXR decides to keep the pup there s/b a very clear agreement of responsibilities & expectations b/w her the breeder.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

SXR said:


> He still has diarrea. It has gone from very watery with mucus and a little blood (Sunday night), to very dark brown and solid (yesterday morning), and lately less watery but more like melted ice cream consistency (yesterday night and this morning). *I hope you're right that there would be no other expenses...that is basically what the breeder is saying.* I just wish I knew for sure.


Be sure you understand that if your pup has a simple food allergy, then your 'food' expenses would be normal as to any person who buys good kibble for their dogs. 

Personally, I don't think your pup's problems now are due to food allergy. But if treated correctly and you follow your vet's advice, it shouldn't be life threatening. 

BTW, cat food isn't easily digested for the canine. Certainly wouldn't hurt a healthy puppy/dog, but I wouldn't feed a pup with issues like your's is having cat food.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

the diarhea could very well be from the coccidia, that in itself wouldn't bother me IF it was from the diarhea, I think the lethargy/lack of eating would bother me more, but again also could be he's just run down from the coccidia, not feeling well with the meds..


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

I have only been adding a little cat food (maybe a tablespoon) to see if he would eat SOMETHING. (I was also trying to get him to take his antibiotic.) I will be careful not to give him much more, if any. I was just worried that he hadn't really eaten at all yesterday, so I was a bit desperate. He also refused real chicken. Poor guy really really didn't feel well.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

Trying to post a pic just in case anyone wants to see the lil' guy we are talking about...this is Jameson.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Aww, thanks for posting a picture of him. I hope this little guy is on the mend. He sure looks comfy sleeping


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

He is adorable. Thanks for the pic. Keep us posted.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

OMG is he cute :wub: 

I don't think you should keep him, hurry and send him to me 

Michaela


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The upset gut may be from the dairy products he was given(along with the meds). Hope he's feeling better, I love his name! And I hope your breeder's hospitalization isn't serious/she gets out asap!


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

If you are worried about the Science Diet kibble, a lot of people give their dogs Chicken and Rice (cooked) when they have had tummy problems. A variation that you can use is Sweet Potato and Chicken. I also through in some brocolli and carrots when the potatoes are cooking. Dogs love sweet potatoes, so if your puppy is hungry at all, he will eat it. 

One day I bought 10 pounds of chicken quarters from Walmart for $6 and cooked up a whole batch of chicken, sweet potato carrots and brocolli to feed the dogs for the next week. Just to give then a change from kibble. The worst part is sitting down at the table and pulling all the meat off the bones. But then I just mash it all up and keep it in the fridge. 

Hopefully chicken is not a problem.

I think the stool problem is from all the dairy, also. Even small amounts of cheese during training will give my pups diarrhea if they aren't used to it.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

He's precious. 

I've never had any problems with cheese or yogurt. I've never given a dog milk. 

Chicken & soft cooked white rice is what my vet advises for upset stomachs. He also likes high quality wet cat food for debilitated pups & kits. Roughage & insoluble fiber on a tender stomach sounds dicey.

Has your vet said anything more?


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

RubyTuesday said:


> He's precious.
> 
> I've never had any problems with cheese or yogurt. I've never given a dog milk.
> 
> ...


After the rough night we had, we called the vet today to see if they wanted him in again. They said that the lethargy/loss of appetite was normal for coccidia and the meds. So far, he is having a better day and is playful, naughty, and has eaten a little. They didn't ask us to bring him back in, but they did tell us to keep him on the Hill's. Of course, the breeder is now insisting that the Hill's is crap and to keep him grain free. I'm trying to find a bland and grain free food to get the best of both worlds.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he is soooooooo CUTE! I love his name Hope he continues to do well


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

How about transition him to raw food? If you keep him you should get the medical expenses back from the breeder. 
How did the breeder diagnose the "grain allergy" if a vet is not able to do this?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Which Hill's food is he on? I assume one of the prescription diets, maybe the i/d?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> How about transition him to raw food? If you keep him you should get the medical expenses back from the breeder.
> How did the breeder diagnose the "grain allergy" if a vet is not able to do this?


Uhm, no. That would depend on the contract. Once people purchase the puppy, the medical expenses are their responsibility. Any dog can have a bout of coccidia. Why should the breeder have to compensate someone if by going against their advice the dog had more issue? They shouldn't. Dogs are living, breathing creatures, and breeders are not responsible for the veterinary expenses they incur. If the OP returns the dog, within are reasonable timeframe, the purchase price should be refunded. 

But no way should the breeder be responsible for the vet care that you chose. For THIS dog is seems the dog had a serious issue and the vet gave them sound treatment, though I agree that Hills is junk and if you can find a low ingredient grain free, or chicken and rice, chicken and sweet potato, whatever, I think that would be more beneficial. 

But the OP knew about the hair loss prior to taking the puppy home and agreed to the purchase price. Now is not the time to stop payment. 

Coccidia is not abnormal and getting treatment for that comes under the buyer not the seller. The dog did not seem sick when it was sold, but probably the stress of changing environments, possibly a change in water triggered the coccidia. That is the buyer's responsibility.

I wish people on this site would not be so quick to tell people not to pay for their dog. Or to try to get compensated for a problem with their dog. If you want to buy something that will be guaranteed, don't buy a living creature. 

Sometimes vets run a new owner over a barrel, and no the breeder should not be responsible for that. Sometimes thing new owners do, like taking the puppy to a pet store and putting it on the scale there, can cause a dog to be sick, and that should not be the breeder's responsibility either. 

If you want to drive the price of puppies up to 10k or higher, that's one way to do it. And rather than explain a possible issue and a remedy to a prospective buyer, breeders will just cull a puppy with a bit of hair loss.


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

Regarding the food: He's on the Hill's RX food (I think I/D). The vet today insisted we keep him on it (but he won't eat it). Then, the breeder is still insisting that he needs to be off of HIll's and on grain free. I was trying to find a bland diet food that is also grain free but nothing so far. Maybe boiled chicken and sweet potato would work since I think that is grain free. 

As an aside, the breeder actually agreed not to even charge my credit card until we see if we can get him healthy. At that point, we can discuss payment.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Keefer had some digestive issues as a puppy, his stools ranged from soft but formed to cow pie. He had numerous fecal tests that all came up negative, including giardia, but someone on the board had recommended trying the giardia antigen test, which is apparently more sensitive than the regular test. I'd also heard about EPI (exocrine pancreatic insufficiency) and SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth), that often goes hand in hand with EPI, so I had him tested for both of those too, as they are fairly common in the breed, and cause digestive problems. He was older than your puppy by then, around 4 or 5 months old, but the giardia antigen test came back positive, and so did the SIBO test. 

Because his stools weren't solid and we weren't sure if this was solely medical or there was also a food allergy or intolerance as well, the vet put him on i/d while he was being treated with flagyl for the giardia and tetracycline for the SIBO, but that didn't make a difference either. Then he suggested z/d Ultra, the Hill's allergy food, which has hydrolyzed proteins. z/d® Canine ULTRA Allergen-Free - Dry

It was like a miracle. I switched him to it over a period of a few days, and the first day he was totally on the z/d, he had perfectly formed stools. Yes, it's Hills crap, yes it's expensive and inconvenient because I could only buy it from my vet, but it worked. I kept him on it through treatment and a month or two beyond, (SIBO was 4 weeks of antibiotics), along with a supplement to help heal his digestive tract, and then I slowly transitioned him back to his regular food. 

Even though the grain free food from the breeder is probably WAY better quality than the Hills, getting his stressed digestive system back on track is a higher priority right now, IMO than feeding the "best" food. And after all, the best food for any particular dog at any particular time isn't always the actual best quality food on the market.

It might be something to discuss with your vet - if he doesn't like the i/d anyway, and it's not really helping it might be worth trying the z/d. Apparently it's very palatable, and I didn't have any trouble getting Keefer to eat it. It was easy on his tummy and it got the job done, and then I put him on something better. 

Good luck with your puppy, whatever you do.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

It sounds like your breeder is being as fair as she can be. I hope you do keep this little pup and that all of his health issues resolve. I happen to be an optimist and I just wish you the best with the adorable little Jameson. Please keep us updated on his progress.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Debbie, trying the other Hills Rx food sounds like an eminently sensible idea. Tough to be b/w a breeder & a vet, both of which s/b experienced, knowledgeable & concerned with the pup's best interests.

If the other Hills doesn't work out or isn't available, cooked chicken and rice or sweet potatoes would be best, IMO. Nutritious, palatable & digestible. If you go that route add substantial amounts of water until he's drinking normally. Dehydration is a big risk with young pups who aren't eating or drinking, especially if the pup has diarrhea or is vomiting.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Think carefully before deciding whether to keep the pup, but the breeder sounds like she's exceptionally reasonable & supportive.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You have had the pup for about 4 days and I understand that you have a hard time to decide what to do. A question that may help you decide is: are you willing and able to deal with potentially continual health problems for the next 14 years? If that makes you even doubt, I would bring him back to his breeder. By the way your breeder seems very supportive.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> You have had the pup for about 4 days and I understand that you have a hard time to decide what to do. A question that may help you decide is: are you willing and able to deal with potentially continual health problems for the next 14 years? If that makes you even doubt, I would bring him back to his breeder. By the way your breeder seems very supportive.


But you should ask yourself that question before you buy ANY living creature. 

And if you get 14 years, that is a bonus, when the breed seems to average 10-12 these days.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Because his stools weren't solid and we weren't sure if this was solely medical or there was also a food allergy or intolerance as well, the vet put him on i/d while he was being treated with flagyl for the giardia and tetracycline for the SIBO, but that didn't make a difference either. Then he suggested z/d Ultra, the Hill's allergy food, which has hydrolyzed proteins. z/d® Canine ULTRA Allergen-Free - Dry
> 
> It was like a miracle. I switched him to it over a period of a few days, and the first day he was totally on the z/d, he had perfectly formed stools. Yes, it's Hills crap, yes it's expensive and inconvenient because I could only buy it from my vet, but it worked. I kept him on it through treatment and a month or two beyond, (SIBO was 4 weeks of antibiotics), along with a supplement to help heal his digestive tract, and then I slowly transitioned him back to his regular food.


You do what you have too. Does seem early for allergies but my Toby dog had looser stools even as a puppy. We did the Z/D too for awhile and it bought me time to do elimination testing to come up with things he COULD eat, one at a time...so that I could move him to a workable permanent diet.

These foods have a real purpose and are a godsend when you need them and buy time to come up with a more permanent solution.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think that was really fair of the breeder to hold off on payment for you. VERY nice of them. 

I'm assuming the vet gave you the canned? or even if it's the dry, how about adding some water make it a mash? maybe add some chicken broth to the food itself?? maybe add some chicken pieces to the food?? Just some ideas.

I know when I had to feed it to Dodge at one point (for diarhea) my gosh I had to chisel the stuff out of the can, I did moisten it up with chicken broth (unsalted)..

Just throwing out some ideas for you


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

@ the OP,
Glad to hear that the vet also thinks the puppy's behaviour is Coccidia related...(I know that sounds bad...but better than many other things it could have been.)
If I can offer an opinion.....just keep your puppy on the RX Hills Diet that the vet prescribed (for right now). Although most of us do not "like" the ingredients in MANY dog foods....it is a RX diet for a reason. The ingredients are based on a "bland intestinal diet"....feed the can, if it will be easier for the puppy to accept right now.
STOP making so many changes in the puppy's diet at this time.....his intestines are already working over time with the parasite of Coccidia....he/she does not need the constant change and upset of other foods and diets.
Give the puppy the time it needs to gain strength and get better....THEN start slowly to change his/her diet....
*This is just my opinion....I am not telling you what you should do with your puppy.*
Best of luck to the both of you!


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

robinhuerta said:


> @ the OP,
> Glad to hear that the vet also thinks the puppy's behaviour is Coccidia related...(I know that sounds bad...but better than many other things it could have been.)
> If I can offer an opinion.....just keep your puppy on the RX Hills Diet that the vet prescribed (for right now). Although most of us do not "like" the ingredients in MANY dog foods....it is a RX diet for a reason. The ingredients are based on a "bland intestinal diet"....feed the can, if it will be easier for the puppy to accept right now.
> STOP making so many changes in the puppy's diet at this time.....his intestines are already working over time with the parasite of Coccidia....he/she does not need the constant change and upset of other foods and diets.
> ...


Good advise :thumbup:


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

Just an update: got him some sweet potato and grain free Natures Variety Instinct Lamb. I'm told its very bland and grain free, and he gobbled it up and begged for more!  and to be clear, I only tried a different food because he wouldn't touch the hills. Maybe it's a coincidence, but at least he has some food in his tummy now.


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## lilLostduckie (Jan 22, 2013)

Df think that, whatever you decide with diet, you should stick with it. Changing my pups, even my old man, always causes an upset belly. The RX Hills stinks (literally),but I usd it for 2.5 weeks with my older boy before the vet gave us some cultured good bacteria to add to his food that we wanted him on. Sometimes just letting the system "shut down" and reset can help.

I would see if the breeder, when out of the hospital, can explain why she thought a grain allergy, where it is in the line, etc., a d then you can pass all that info along to the vet and see their conclusion? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## SXR (Apr 4, 2013)

This is an old post now, but I thought I would send an update in case any of you were curious. After 7+ days of antibiotic, the puppy's health had not really improved, but for the fact that he was at least eating and drinking. The vet told us to bring him back in for more tests because something besides the coccidia could be wrong. At that point, and after many tears, we decided we had to return the pup to the breeder so they could take responsibility for getting him well. To be blunt, it sucked. To make it worse, even though they claimed not to have charged me, they actually DID charge me, and I have still not seen a refund from them, even though I have already returned the dog (weeks ago). They have also refused to pay the vet bill. SO! I have no doggie, and I am out $2000 for the moment, but will hopefully get $1500 back from the breeder one of these days. Sigh.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

How awful and disappointing. I'm so sorry!


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

You paid with a credit card? call them no service rendered!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would try contacting your credit card company as well, they may be able to do something about it..or atleast give you a suggestion on how to proceed.

Guess they weren't very nice after all


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Oh no...I'm sorry


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wow, I hope you get a resolution. And I hope the pup will overcome whatever health issues he has. Sorry for the outcome...I'm sure your heart(and wallet) is breaking.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Yes contact your credit card company and notify of returned purchase. They most likely will have you fill out a form and sign it. I would also notify the breeders that you have not shown a credit to your card. Dont wait on their reply though, because with most credit cards you have a certain time frame to notify them of return or incorrect billing. So sorry to hear about your pup.


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