# Breeding a DM Carrier



## JoshHoff (4 mo ago)

As someone who recently lost a dog partially due to DM and is also researching lines for my next, it’s infuriating to me to see anyone breeding a dog that’s anything other than DM N/N. I’ve come across a couple on working-dog that are actively breeding carriers N/DM, while they won’t have it their progeny may. What’s the group feel as the ethics behind this?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

If you are breeding to avoid producing high risk dogs it’s fine. That means carrier to clear. I wouldn’t buy from a dog that is A/A or breed to them. You could breed them to a clear dog and produce all carriers. I have a major disagreement with the ethics of the breeder that produced that dog and I wouldn’t want to promote them or their kennel. The reality is if you breed to that dog, or bug puppies from that dog, you are promoting that breeder. My dog Cion is actually from a carrier dam. If I was personally breeding, I wouldn’t keep a carrier as a breeding female. It’s hard enough finding a matching male, I wouldn’t want DM status to be a limiting factor.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

To clarify what the testing status means. Normal/Normal is low risk. Normal/altered is low risk. Altered/Altered is high risk.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Josh, the problem with the test for DM is it isn't 100%. Some dogs that test as DM clear still develop the disease, and dogs that carry 2 copies of the DM gene often go through their lives without ever developing it. Breeding a carrier to a clear dog is low risk, as long as you make the puppy buyers aware that their pup may be a carrier, and should be tested if they plan to breed. 

There are other similar genes in other breeds. The blue merle gene, for instance, can be lethal if carried by both parents, yet blue merles are very popular in breeds like collies and Cardigan Welsh corgis. As long as the breeder know what they are doing, I don't have a problem with it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JoshHoff said:


> As someone who recently lost a dog partially due to DM and is also researching lines for my next, it’s infuriating to me to see anyone breeding a dog that’s anything other than DM N/N. I’ve come across a couple on working-dog that are actively breeding carriers N/DM, while they won’t have it their progeny may. What’s the group feel as the ethics behind this?


First, my dog has a genetic disease that makes DM look like rainbows and unicorns, I have some pretty strong feelings on diseases right now. I would take DM over this any day, all day long. In fact, I'm willing to bet a good portion of our "DM" dogs that have tested negative but still have the symptoms actually have this disease and there is no test for it yet. So yeah....there are things out there that are worse than DM. Sorry. Fact. 

So you want to further restrict the gene pool instead of breeding intelligently? You can not just throw our a large portion of our breed and restrict overall genetic diversity. You WILL have other diseases coming forward by doing that. I spent some time talking to our national breed warden on the diseases in our breed. It's not cool.

If you are breeding affected to affected then there is a problem. That is 100% unethical, irresponsible and stupid. N/DM is not affected.

If you are breeding affected to clear, which will produce carriers, you should have a very good reason for doing so and then next breeding to any in that litter should be to clear only. If a carrier is bred to clear, the offspring can be carriers but not affected.

Breeders, good breeders, are testing and breeding intelligently to maintain our breed without further restricting the gene pool. They are breeding with the next generation in mind. One of the reasons I am so angry over the SV not allowing stock coat to long coat breedings. We can not reduce our gene pool. It's already bottle necked. 

There is my post coffee rant for the day.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> First, my dog has a genetic disease that makes DM look like rainbows and unicorns, I have some pretty strong feelings on diseases right now. I would take DM over this any day, all day long. In fact, I'm willing to bet a good portion of our "DM" dogs that have tested negative but still have the symptoms actually have this disease and there is no test for it yet. So yeah....there are things out there that are worse than DM. Sorry. Fact.
> 
> So you want to further restrict the gene pool instead of breeding intelligently? You can not just throw our a large portion of our breed and restrict overall genetic diversity. You WILL have other diseases coming forward by doing that. I spent some time talking to our national breed warden on the diseases in our breed. It's not cool.
> 
> ...


What’s your pre coffee rant look like


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## JoshHoff (4 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> First, my dog has a genetic disease that makes DM look like rainbows and unicorns, I have some pretty strong feelings on diseases right now. I would take DM over this any day, all day long. In fact, I'm willing to bet a good portion of our "DM" dogs that have tested negative but still have the symptoms actually have this disease and there is no test for it yet. So yeah....there are things out there that are worse than DM. Sorry. Fact.
> 
> So you want to further restrict the gene pool instead of breeding intelligently? You can not just throw our a large portion of our breed and restrict overall genetic diversity. You WILL have other diseases coming forward by doing that. I spent some time talking to our national breed warden on the diseases in our breed. It's not cool.
> 
> ...


Breathe! 34,000 posts, thanks for cracking an egg of wisdom on me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carter Smith said:


> What’s your pre coffee rant look like


Dear Carter. There is no "pre coffee" anything. Like Forrest Gump missing the bus.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Dear Carter. There is no "pre coffee" anything. Like Forrest Gump missing the bus.


I agree. My dogs learn that quickly too. There WILL be peace during first coffee come .. or high water


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carter Smith said:


> I agree. My dogs learn that quickly too. There WILL be peace during first coffee come .. or high water


My dogs have learned that is the time they can do whatever they want because I'm just blankly staring at a wall. Just like my son learned that if he asked me a question when I was sleeping the answer was always Yes. Because yeah is easier to say in your sleep than no. We have interesting times in the morning. At least the dogs can't decide to go walk across town to Grandma's alone at 7 yrs old.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Carter Smith said:


> I agree. My dogs learn that quickly too. There WILL be peace during first coffee come .. or high water


I literally stood in a flood, calmly sipping my morning coffee. Lol. Do not disturb. Or else.
I lost Sabi to DM. I have very strong feelings about it. However, there are some genes that need to be passed on. And as long as the breeder is doing it right I have no issue with it. 
As to the flawed testing. No test is 100%. Not one. And the sad fact is that it is late onset. That could mean 8 or it could mean 15. There is a very real chance that something else gets them first. In Sabis case we were fighting cancer as well or it may not have taken her so soon. 
Cancer is also genetically predisposed in dogs.
Research the breeder and the lines.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> My dogs have learned that is the time they can do whatever they want because I'm just blankly staring at a wall. Just like my son learned that if he asked me a question when I was sleeping the answer was always Yes. Because yeah is easier to say in your sleep than no. We have interesting times in the morning. At least the dogs can't decide to go walk across town to Grandma's alone at 7 yrs old.


Lol, my kids are that age.. I don’t take chances.. no one gets up at 5am. That’s my time


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> I literally stood in a flood, calmly sipping my morning coffee. Lol. Do not disturb. Or else.
> I lost Sabi to DM. I have very strong feelings about it. However, there are some genes that need to be passed on. And as long as the breeder is doing it right I have no issue with it.
> As to the flawed testing. No test is 100%. Not one. And the sad fact is that it is late onset. That could mean 8 or it could mean 15. There is a very real chance that something else gets them first. In Sabis case we were fighting cancer as well or it may not have taken her so soon.
> Cancer is also genetically predisposed in dogs.
> Research the breeder and the lines.


I’ve been through a few hurricanes, thankfully visiting places so property damage wasn’t an issue.. but it’s phenomenal to watch.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JoshHoff said:


> Breathe! 34,000 posts, thanks for cracking an egg of wisdom on me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting response. With any luck on your part, you'll never understand the irony of telling me to *breathe *in a thread on genetic diseases.


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