# Is this a roach back?Is it a normal build for a gsd?



## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Hello guys , i am posting some pictures of my gsd bellow so you can tell me your opinion on his legs and back , they seem kind of weird to me and i would like your opinion on the matter.Is he a roach back?If not is that back normal for a gsd?Are those straight legs normal? Thanks in advance!:wink2:


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

There's no picture?


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

I get them up in a second...


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Here are the pictures...


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

And some i got today...


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

He is nearly 12 months


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

Im not sure how severe but I would say yes. Better opinions to come... you will get a definite answer though. Some one will know.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Possibly a little. Looks German show line? But the way you have him standing is exaggerating it. His head down is creating way more of an arch than he really has.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

And his feet are under him, he's not standing in a good stance to be able to truly see his topline.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog has his head down eating.

he has long fore legs and could use a better layback on his shoulders and withers are flat - restriction on shoulder opening and neck flexability (picture 5)

that harness has a really poor fit -- ever wear a ill fitting shoe and get cramps that will shoot right up your leg ?
I wouldn't use it -- (picutres 11 , 12 , 13)

I'd take it off , hit the shiatsu pressure points and uncramp his back .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It doesn't look like a roach. There could be cramping. Mostly, the dog is not stacked, and has his head down. Can't judge top line like that. 

The thing to do, is to go on line and find some pictures of a dog with a roach. Maybe we can post some. Maybe not. If you look at some of the videos of the sieger show, some of the dogs have a roach, and someone could point them out.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Possibly a little. Looks German show line? But the way you have him standing is exaggerating it. His head down is creating way more of an arch than he really has.


yes , i wanted to show him in a bad position , when he is stretching you can't see that hunchback (as i call it).


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

If he has a roached back it will show even in a good standing position. It's not something he'll have only when looking down and his feet up under him.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Looks a bit like my dog, though mine has a _very_ clear roach back. Beautiful dog you have there.  I agree with Carmen, lose the harness, that thing looks way too tight.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jaspar said:


> yes , i wanted to show him in a bad position , when he is stretching you can't see that hunchback (as i call it).


So you put him in an unnatural position to create this? When you reach down and touch your toes, does your back arch?  Show him in a natural stack and see what he looks like.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)




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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" If you look at some of the videos of the sieger show, some of the dogs have a roach, and someone could point them out."

what do you mean some of the dogs ? Almost without exception . Those that don't do not have a high VA or V rating - they are well down the line.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Julian G said:


>


Julian G- what is wrong with that poor dog?


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Apologies for maybe stupid question, but whats the problem with the roach per se? I don't mean hind legs, sometimes it is very obvious (Crufts GSD winner this year), but the roach? Does it cause any problems?
My dog's dam was a WGSL and Rex had some sort of roach until the age of 8 months when it evened out.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

I would guess dogs with a (severe) roach back are a bit more prone to spinal issues.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian G View Post

Julian G- what is wrong with that poor dog?

Apologies for maybe stupid question, but whats the problem with the roach per se? I don't mean hind legs, sometimes it is very obvious (Crufts GSD winner this year), but the roach? Does it cause any problems?
My dog's dam was a WGSL and Rex had some sort of roach until the age of 8 months when it evened out.


to answer -- a roach backed is dysfunctional to movement . It is contrary to the breed standard which was developed for a trotting dog with endurance to be in a state of efficient movement all day if necessary .

More information in the Linda Shaw book Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

maxtmill said:


> Julian G- what is wrong with that poor dog?


They took a distinguished and noble working dog and bred it to look like a sideshow freak. One of the reasons I'm so against show line breeding.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Julian G said:


> They took a distinguished and noble working dog and bred it to look like a sideshow freak. One of the reasons I'm so against show line breeding.



Ditto! But if the judges stopped putting up these types then hopefully the breeders would quit breeding them!!

The description of an ideal GSD says "Without roach or sag"! How much more can we say???

Someone told me years ago, they bred the roach back to prevent or eliminate any sag. Don't know if that's true.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think the sag backs are even worse.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

People are funny thinking they can improve performance over nature. Imop a wolf is about as good as it gets regarding conformation, any structural deviation will have a negative impact.

For the op, I wouldn't worry too much about a roach/no roach. As others have mentioned the pics and the harness make it difficult to say, your pup will fine regardless.


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## Akatruly_ (Sep 14, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the sag backs are even worse.


What exactly is a sag back?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Akatruly_ said:


> What exactly is a sag back?


The opposite of a roach back where the back arches downward between the shoulders and the hips like an ancient horse.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Should i let him mate with a dam so they can make puppies or not(i read that breeding roach is wrong)?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

jaspar said:


> Should i let him mate with a dam so they can make puppies or not(i read that breeding roach is wrong)?


Not to sound harsh but if you're not a professional breeder you shouldn't be breeding dogs at all. Even so called "professionals" have been responsible for ruining this breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Julian G said:


> They took a distinguished and noble working dog and bred it to look like a sideshow freak. One of the reasons I'm so against show line breeding.


Ever wonder what the many people who have and love show line dogs think about flippant statements like this. There are show line dogs that do not have roach backs and are excellent dogs. And, they are dogs that have tremendous personalities that we are attached to and fond of. 

Since it is Thanksgiving and I do not intend to drive until tomorrow, I happen to imbibing on some wine so it is probably a good idea to leave it at that. Happy Thanksgiving to you too. :toasting:


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Not to sound harsh but if you're not a professional breeder you shouldn't be breeding dogs at all. Even so called "professionals" have been responsible for ruining this breed.


pssst, there's a few show line breeders on here who breed beautiful dogs. Shouldn't generalize....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jaspar said:


> Should i let him mate with a dam so they can make puppies or not(i read that breeding roach is wrong)?


I have not seen the roach back in your dog. However, that doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means I haven't seen the dog in person and the pictures really do not show the structure of the dog. 

But it sounds like you do not have the experience to evaluate your dog sufficiently to make that decision on your own. Asking a bunch of strangers to look at a picture of your dog and tell you he is breed-worthy is setting yourself up for failure. 

First study the standard, then study the various lines and the current structure. Then ask your dog's breeder to critique him. If you have a bitch in mind as her breeder if possible to critique your dog. Shut your mouth and open your ears. Because you need to listen to everything and then make up your own mind. 

Structure is important. But more important is health and temperament. You cannot show a picture and get anything but negatives -- you can see some health concerns, but you cannot verify health and genetic health is good; you might see temperament issues in a picture, but you cannot guaranty good/correct temperament by pictures. 

So, before considering the question of breeding, you need to find some real people, people who have some history with the breed, to give you a leg up. Breeding can be done in a vacuum, but your chances of doing it well that way are slim. 

Good luck.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> pssst, there's a few show line breeders on here who breed_* beautiful *_dogs. Shouldn't generalize....


Exactly. Nuff said. Happy Thanksgiving.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

tell me your opinion on his legs and back , they seem kind of weird to me and i would like your opinion on the matter.Is he a roach back?If not is that back normal for a gsd?Are those straight legs normal? 

Should i let him mate with a dam so they can make puppies or not(i read that breeding roach is wrong)?

the above statements are Jaspar's quotes.

Easiest answer ever -- NO -- N O . 

You don't know what YOU have . You wouldn't be able to find a good female if she bit you in the behind. (which she might )

The person who has a female that would allow you to breed her knows even less than you.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

And then what do you guys/girls propose i do if i want to start breeding my dog?(most of you are negative on the matter thats why i ask)


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

jaspar said:


> And then what do you guys/girls propose i do if i want to start breeding my dog?(most of you are negative on the matter thats why i ask)




I guess I'd ask you why you want to breed your dog.


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

jaspar said:


> And then what do you guys/girls propose i do if i want to start breeding my dog?(most of you are negative on the matter thats why i ask)


Why do you want to breed your dog?

Is he an outstanding representative of the breed? Titled? Health tested? Free of conformation faults? Correct temperament? Good pedigree?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you didn't even know your dog's conformation.

the world does not need any more puppies .

NO


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Well speaking as an amateur , i believe that dogs with very good temperament and excellent health should be bred.My dog has both so far and i hope he will in the future too.(speaking for his health mostly)...i dont know if he is a good representative of the breed , so i asked you guys/girls if he is a roach back (i dont know if its right to breed roach backs thats why i want to learn...i read on this forum from someone that breeding roach is not good) and if his back/legs are normal.


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

jaspar said:


> Well speaking as an amateur , i believe that dogs with very good temperament and excellent health should be bred.My dog has both so far and i hope he will in the future too.(speaking for his health mostly)...i dont know if he is a good representative of the breed , so i asked you guys/girls if he is a roach back (i dont know if its right to breed roach backs thats why i want to learn...i read on this forum from someone that breeding roach is not good) and if his back/legs are normal.


Dogs that aren't titled and health tested should not be bred. 

Amateurs that don't know anything about the breed should not be breeding.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

carmspack said:


> you didn't even know your dog's conformation.
> 
> the world does not need any more puppies .
> 
> NO


so noone should be breeding by your saying "the world does not need any more puppies"?


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

BrodyRoo said:


> Dogs that aren't titled and health tested should not be bred.
> 
> Amateurs that don't know anything about the breed should not be breeding.


i disagree on the titled thing...all else i strongly agree.Before i start , if i start breeding i will make sure i know plenty if not all things about gsds.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote ".i dont know if he is a good representative of the breed"

you wouldn't know if the female was a good representative of the breed.

exactly why ---- the answer is NO

people that own GOOD females , with limited breeding options , plan long and very carefully to find the best that they can.

there is not going to be a stampede looking for your male, even though , and I am very very glad that he is, a good and loved companion dog for you.


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

jaspar said:


> i disagree on the titled thing...all else i strongly agree.Before i start , if i start breeding i will make sure i know plenty if not all things about gsds.


Disagree all you like, but breeding untitled dogs is irresponsible. 

The world doesn't need more backyard breeders producing inferior puppies.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

carmspack said:


> quote ".i dont know if he is a good representative of the breed"
> 
> you wouldn't know if the female was a good representative of the breed.
> 
> ...


I am sorry , i dont get everything you are typing , because of my bad english and my little knowledge on dogs generally...when i say breed i mean a good male dog (by good i mean healthy with good temperament and close to the standards) mating with a good female dog to make good puppies with hopefully the same good traits as their parents.Why are you talking about females like they are harder to be found? (or you are talking about how difficult is to find a good female because it is the dog that is the biggest responsibility after a mating)


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

jaspar said:


> Well speaking as an amateur , i believe that dogs with very good temperament and excellent health should be bred.My dog has both so far and i hope he will in the future too.(speaking for his health mostly)...i dont know if he is a good representative of the breed , so i asked you guys/girls if he is a roach back (i dont know if its right to breed roach backs thats why i want to learn...i read on this forum from someone that breeding roach is not good) and if his back/legs are normal.


There is so much more to breeding than a dog with a nice temperament and "excellent health." Has you dog had his hips and elbows x-rayed to start? What makes your dog breed worthy? What outstanding working qualities does your dog have? What is so spectacular about his structure, appearance and conformation that make shim breed worthy? 

What has your dog done that make others say "I want a pup from this dog?" What have you done with your dog to show or prove that he is an outstanding, exceptional representative of the breed? Have you had any knowledgeable folks look at your dog and give you a fair, honest and objective opinion of your dog? 

Can you find any better dogs that are available for stud? I can assure you there are better dogs available, both in working ability and conformation (structure). What is so great about your dog's pedigree that makes him an asset to the breed? 

There are two really bad reasons to breed dogs, 1: you need the money and are using your dog as a BYBVATM. 2: Because, _you_ (a general _you_ to those thinking of breeding their pets.) think you have a nice dog with a good temperament and your dogs would have cute puppies. The pound is full of dogs like that, no need to add more.

I don't mean to be harsh, so please do not take this personally, it is a general statement for those thinking of breeding the dog lying on their couch. A good temperament (?) and a healthy dog (?) does not equal a breed worthy dog in my book. Especially, when you really don't know how good your dog's temperament really is and how healthy it really is. When you get out and work your dog you will have a better idea. When you go and show your dog and get honest critiques and evaluations you will have a better idea of what is "breed worthy."


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

BrodyRoo said:


> Disagree all you like, but breeding untitled dogs is irresponsible.
> 
> The world doesn't need more backyard breeders producing inferior puppies.


When you say inferior what do you mean?A dog with good temperament and health , how is it inferior to another dog?(note that i dont mean working dog , there i agree with you)


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

jaspar said:


> When you say inferior what do you mean?A dog with good temperament and health , how is it inferior to another dog?(note that i dont mean working dog , there i agree with you)


GSDs ARE working dogs - that is their entire purpose for existing. Want "just a pet"? Go to your local animal shelter - perfectly good pet dogs get euthanized there by the thousands for want of homes.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> There is so much more to breeding than a dog with a nice temperament and "excellent health." Has you dog had his hips and elbows x-rayed to start? What makes your dog breed worthy? What outstanding working qualities does your dog have? What is so spectacular about his structure, appearance and conformation that make shim breed worthy?
> 
> What has your dog done that make others say "I want a pup from this dog?" What have you done with your dog to show or prove that he is an outstanding, exceptional representative of the breed? Have you had any knowledgeable folks look at your dog and give you a fair, honest and objective opinion of your dog?
> 
> ...


I don't mean to be harsh, so please do not take this personally ---> no offence taken you are really helpfull and friendly , everyone i met on this forum is so far

I get what you want to say and thanks for the trouble of typing all of the above , but as you describe it if we take the best among the best of dogs (i know mine isnt a best dog , most arent)
there want be many gsds.My opinion is find a dog with average or above on those traits and breed with another average or above (if you have the knowledge and place).

What does this mean--->BYBVATM?


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

BrodyRoo said:


> GSDs ARE working dogs - that is their entire purpose for existing. Want "just a pet"? Go to your local animal shelter - perfectly good pet dogs get euthanized there by the thousands for want of homes.


Very good answer.I understand what you mean now.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

BrodyRoo said:


> GSDs ARE working dogs - that is their entire purpose for existing. Want "just a pet"? Go to your local animal shelter - perfectly good pet dogs get euthanized there by the thousands for want of homes.


What works can be done by a dog except guarding and protecting?As i said i am and amateur.


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

jaspar said:


> What works can be done by a dog except guarding and protecting?As i said i am and amateur.


Herding, nosework, IPO, Search and Rescue, etc...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

jaspar said:


> What works can be done by a dog except guarding and protecting?As i said i am and amateur.


Tracking, Search and Rescue, detection work like narcotics, explosives, cancer, Cadaver, seizures. Therapy work, PTSD dogs, there are many jobs that a GSD or any dog for that matter with a good temperament and the proper drives can do. Sport as well, IPO, agility, obedience, nose work, etc.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

BrodyRoo said:


> Herding, nosework, IPO, Search and Rescue, etc...


Gsds are working dogs but are great house pets too and many choose them for their good breed temperament and that is a fact(at least in my country)...personally i got my dog to be a guard dog and i intend to get a trainer to help me with that.


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Lets take an example of those gsds with the bent legs(frogs i call them lol) , i read they are not good working dogs , those dogs are owned by people that want them for show or for house pets i guess


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## Suzy25 (Mar 3, 2016)

Okay i really dont want to be mean or anything, but you really don't know enough about dogs, gsd's, or breeding to be even considering breeding your dog. 
You asked a question about conformation, because you didnt know yourself, and many other things you have asked about, about what work they do and such that show you are an amateur dog owner, with amateur dog knowledge who thinks their dog is cute and healthy enough to be bred. He's a pet, many pets are cute and healthy, doesnt mean there needs to be puppies running around, getting put in shelters and such because a novice dog owner thought it was cool and fun to breed their average pet dog for cute puppies. 
he hasn't been properly tested with nerves, stability, hips and elbows, conformation, overall temperament, pedigree etc... these dogs are bred for a purpose and people think long and hard before choosing a stud for their dog, its not all about puppies. 

Titling dogs is very important, it shows the working ability, nerves, stability, intelligence, drive etc... all gsd's that have sought after puppies are all titled, both parents, grandparents etc... no questions asked. (especially working line) 

what makes people want a puppy from your dog, other than good looks and seeming healthy. solid nerves, temperament, working ability in nose work, police work, search and rescue, etc... not just having good manners around the house and on walks. 

Real gsd people, even many pet homes, dont want an average father and average mother, even slightly above average, they want exceptional above average, to be able to put them to work and do everything they want them to do. 

think long and hard about why you want to just add more puppies, who will just add even more puppies, to this world that is killing thousands upon thousands of dogs a day who could make just as great pets for the homes you give the puppies too. 
so...whats so special about yours? 

(for your original questions, not that much of a roach, if any. but no one can judge conformation with photos like that, get a stacked photo, then ask about conformation, plus conformation is more than just the back and legs) the harness is way too small also


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## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Suzy25 said:


> Okay i really dont want to be mean or anything, but you really don't know enough about dogs, gsd's, or breeding to be even considering breeding your dog.
> You asked a question about conformation, because you didnt know yourself, and many other things you have asked about, about what work they do and such that show you are an amateur dog owner, with amateur dog knowledge who thinks their dog is cute and healthy enough to be bred. He's a pet, many pets are cute and healthy, doesnt mean there needs to be puppies running around, getting put in shelters and such because a novice dog owner thought it was cool and fun to breed their average pet dog for cute puppies.
> he hasn't been properly tested with nerves, stability, hips and elbows, conformation, overall temperament, pedigree etc... these dogs are bred for a purpose and people think long and hard before choosing a stud for their dog, its not all about puppies.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your answer and you are not mean at all.In the contrary i understand that you are trying to help me understand some things i dont know.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Jaspar, put breeding on hold for a couple of years. Instead, raise your puppy, try working him in some of the above activities and see what you learn with him. Neuter him when he is older and have him be a learning dog. As you start training him you'll meet more people with GSDs and you'll meet dogs that are good at what you decide to do with your dog and some that aren't as good. You'll make friends with people who know GSDs and can help you learn. Once you have proven yourself by training and working this puppy you'll find if you still want to breed that you may be able to find a mentor, someone who will share their knowledge with you and teach you what you really need to know before you breed. They can then help you with finding a quality dog that you possibly look at breeding. Remember, even that dog will need to grow up and pass all the health tests that are needed prior to even thinking about breeding. Train and work that puppy and see where you are then. Breeding should never be done without a lot of knowledge about the breed and even about breeding itself. You need a good mentor, a trainer for yourself before you start anything, training, breeding, etc.. You're in kindergarten right now with this dog trying to jump to college without all the knowledge you need to learn first.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There's no rush, take some time and learn a bit.


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