# How important are OFA scores- really?



## wildo

One reason I've decided to run Pimg at 20" is because I still haven't gotten her hips and elbows OFA'ed. In some respects, I think that's a bit negligent on my part. I'm really asking her to do a lot without knowing *for sure* what state her joints are in. But on the other hand, I just can't see taking a risk with putting her under anesthesia _only_ to get hip xrays. She doesn't have any medical issues right now requiring anesthesia, so I have been putting them off.

But I was thinking about it- and had this question: *Does it really matter?*

She shows no signs of joint issues at all. She chases squirrels up trees constantly, jumping up and down at the base of the tree over and over and over. I'm not talking little piddly jumps either- I'm talking 6 or 7' jumping straight up, constantly:









If she had joint problems, seems like I'd know about them by now. Still- I question- if you finally OFA your dog's hips and find them to be poor- if the dog is not showing signs of discomfort- do you continue agility? I think that's probably a yes, but I'm looking to some people with more experience on this...


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## BlackthornGSD

She has functional hips--or you'd know otherwise by now, especially as active as it seems she is. At 5 years of age, if she had bad elbows, you'd know it by now.

If her hips are less than perfect, then they might give her trouble as an older dog.

The ratings matter for breeding decisions. (It's important to have an impartial and somewhat standardized reading on the xrays--not just the opinion of the person who wants to breed the dog.) 

For a dog who you don't plan to breed, the xrays and/or ratings can help you make good decisions if you have a dog who you plan to be active with -- but generally, if the hips were really bad, she'd have had problems before now.


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## Elaine

If you have a well behaved, trusting dog, you don't have to sedate your dog for hip and elbow x-rays.

If I had a dog that I wasn't going to breed and that dog was jumping and moving well, I wouldn't bother with x-rays. Unless there's a lameness issue, I don't see the need.


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## Lucy Dog

She doesn't have to be under any kind of anesthesia to have hips x-rayed.

You don't really even need to send them to the OFA if you don't want to. Major hip issues are pretty much black and white just by looking at the x-rays.


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## NancyJ

I think the sedation is to get the *perfect* image for the OFA . Agree with Paul - I would do hip AND back. My own dog who was severerly dysplastic did not show symptoms until after a cold winter swim. I did adjust her activity after that - kept her active but did not do certain types of things that would accellerate her decline and it has all been good for the past 5 years.


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## TaraM1285

I do not think OFA scores are that important. I did have x-rays of Tara's hips and elbows for my own peace of mind before beginning agility when she was 2 years old. If you would feel more comfortable knowing, I would go ahead with the x-rays. As others said, she should not need to be completely anesthetized for x-rays. Tara was done with a light sedative and her films were excellent in quality and positioning (I think they are posted on the board somewhere). Some dogs can probably be done without any chemical restraint. I'd ask your vet about it.

I plan to jump Tara at 24" when we trial. I do still supplement with glucosamine/chondroitin and fish oil and make sure she's warmed-up properly before running and that she stretches and does other strengthening exercises to keep her in good shape for it.


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## JakodaCD OA

I have xrayed all my dogs to determine status of hips/elbow/spine/knees. The majority I don't send in to OFA because there is no need. They are also good for future reference if something crops up and you want to go back and look to see if there have been any changes


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## wildo

Thanks everyone- that helps give me some peace of mind. I didn't know that I would physically be able to see issues already if she had any.



Elaine said:


> If you have a well behaved, trusting dog, you don't have to sedate your dog for hip and elbow x-rays.
> 
> If I had a dog that I wasn't going to breed and that dog was jumping and moving well, I wouldn't bother with x-rays. Unless there's a lameness issue, I don't see the need.


I feel that I have a well behaved, trusting dog- but getting up on the xray table and having unknown people contort her in every which way is about as fun for her as... well, I just woke up for the morning three minutes ago and can't think of anything funny to say yet. She hates it. She screams and whines bloody murder. There's no way she could be xrayed without _at least_ sedation.


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## Liesje

I'm a "need to know" sort of person so I x-ray all my dogs at 6 months and 24 months regardless of whether I intend to breed or even submit the films for ratings. I just need to see them. I'm glad I did because we found a fairly major problem with Nikon that explained a few odd symptoms. Without the x-rays we would NEVER have figured it out, since the issue is a skeletal abnormality and one that *usually* doesn't cause the odd symptoms I saw unless severe. Ironically though, his "hips" are fine, he's OFA Good. But I have decided to limit doing agility and flyball and I will not do weight pull.

To me the OFA rating is not as important but I do need to see the anatomy, once before I start training and at least once again when the dog is mature. I also do elbows and spine. It has always been less than $150 which is definitely worth my peace of mind!


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## Chris Wild

I'm also a need to know sort of person. Particularly if the dog is going to be leading a very active lifestyle. Absolutely if the hips or elbows were very bad, you'd know by now. But it's not safe to assume that they are great either simply because there are no symptoms. If mild or moderate, she wouldn't necessarily be showing any trouble now, but may in the future. And if that is the case any excess wear and tear now could lead to earlier onset and increased severity of symptoms. Knowing for certain allows the owner to make educated decisions about activity, lifestyle, diet and supplements, which if there is a problem there could significantly reduce any trouble she has in the future.

A dog does not need to be sedated, and certainly not fully anesthetized, for x-rays. X-rays don't need to be sent to OFA either, provided it is a competent vet taking the films and interpreting them. For breeding, official scores from OFA etc... matter. From the standpoint of just knowing where the joints stand as it relates to possible quality of life issues later, scores aren't necessary.


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## AgileGSD

It depends on how you feel about it really, there is no right or wrong answer. I don't think there is a harm jumping her 24" as long as she is fit (that picture seems to suggest she is!) and willing. I have never xrayed a dog _for_ agility, as it likely wouldn't change much one way or another. Some dogs with perfect OFAs and ideal structure are really poor jumpers and shouldn't jump the regular height. Some dysplastic dogs are so athletic that no one would ever guess they had "bad hips". Lots of dogs with less than ideal structure or joints successfully train and compete in agility for years. IMO it's better to keep dysplastic dogs active and fit, as that seems to be what keeps them sound. The worst off dogs are the dysplastic pets who are overweight and have no muscling, as they tend to show symptoms early on and continue to worsen with age.


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## FG167

I'm another need to know person. I have had all my performance dogs hips/elbows/lower spine x-rayed just to make sure all was well. Purely because I wanted to - they are/were all fixed so no breeding intentions.

After what happened with Lies and Nikon, I will be even more adamant about it - those types of freak things stick with me endlessly...

Oh and I send to OFA b/c it's like $35 and I feel might as well know what others think...


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## FG167

wildo said:


> I feel that I have a well behaved, trusting dog- but getting up on the xray table and having unknown people contort her in every which way is about as fun for her as... well, I just woke up for the morning three minutes ago and can't think of anything funny to say yet. She hates it. She screams and whines bloody murder. There's no way she could be xrayed without _at least_ sedation.


Eh, I think the vet's office is frequently an entity of its own regarding dog behavior. Some have horrible things there and still love it, some have nothing bad ever and hate it. I think it has more to do with how others' behavior (other dogs in the office, animals crying in the back - perhaps the smell of fear???) affects the individual dog than if you have a well-behaved pet or not. I DO think having a well-behaved pet is the way to go but can understand a dog not wanting to be contorted by strangers in a strange/scary place.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I agree with most everyone else. I x-ray just cause I like to look at what I've got and what the future may hold.

But if my dog appears to be healthy, fit, lean and fine.... we jump our measured height at 24" that way we are in with the 'big dogs' and at least in AKC not competiting against as many of those freakin Border Collies and we also get MORE course times which helps when we start accumulating points and qualifyers.


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## wildo

You guys all rock! Thanks so much for the opinions... I think I'll go ahead and schedule the xrays. It probably is better to know than not to know. And I didn't realize that OFA or PENN hip ratings wouldn't really matter much in this case. Pimg is spayed, and there is no way I would have ever considered breeding here anyway.

I am not sure my vet offers any kind of digital copy of the xrays. He's a pretty old school vet and hasn't flooded his office with all the fancy crap that makes every other vet in this area super expensive. So how do you guys get pictures? Can I just take the xrays home and scan them on my scanner? They are likely too big for a normal home scanner. What's the process here?


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## TaraM1285

Someone else might have a better suggestion, but I think it would probably be easiest to take a camera to the vet's office and photograph them on the light box. I doubt they would scan well.


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## wildo

I just scheduled the appointment. Feeling responsible... 

I asked about scanning the xrays, but the lady wasn't sure if they had those facilities. Apparently they just got a new xray machine and she didn't know if it had that capability. She was fully aware of what I was asking and did say, "I am not sure if we could burn them to a disk or email them to you or not..." So that's promising. If anything- I could definitely take my camera; that's a good suggestion Kristin!


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## Freestep

I'm that "need to know" person also. I don't breed but I always x-ray my pups. I don't usually bother sending them into OFA unless it looks borderline and I want other vets to look at it.

Dogs can be very stoic, and just because your dog runs, jumps, and moves totally sound and has no signs of pain, DOES NOT mean the hips are good. I had a dog who spent most of her puppyhood on her back legs like a kangaroo--she was super active and athletic, her movement was flawless, and she never showed any sign of pain or discomfort. Boy was I surprised to find she had moderate hip dysplasia.

As to limiting activity once you know dysplasia is present... IMO it depends on the dog. Some dogs love and need to be active, and to prevent them from doing so would be tantamount to a life of torture. It's all about balancing quality of life. A very active dog with high exercise needs will still enjoy agility, etc and probably be pain-free... for a while... but you're likely to have problems down the road. But, you want to keep the dog happy while still being mindful of potential problems.


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## BlackthornGSD

I always x-ray my young dogs, but if I had a spayed 5 year old who was extremely athletic and sound, I don't know that I would bother until/unless there was a problem or the dog was going to be sedated for some other reason.

Either way, I agree that it's good to have the knowledge of what's there!


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## holland

I didn't x-ray my rescue dog and did obedience with her -she just was never able to do the jumps-took her to the vet and she was diagnosed with DM -which is different than a hip problem-but for that reason if I was going to do jumping of any kind I would hip xray-I went to an ortho vet and probably always will in the future-just trust them better for hip xrays-and it was digital


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## elisabeth_00117

I am a need to know person as well.

No intentions to breed but because Stark is so active we x-rayed (prelims and will get his certs. soon). 

I am just waiting on the results from his nose and to see if he needs to be put under for a biopsy, and if/when he does we will do hips at the same time. If no biopsy, then the hips will be scheduled shortly.


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## wildo

I feel a lot better for even just scheduling the appointment. I've put it off long enough knowing that I really need to know... I'll have the xrays on Monday.


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## Castlemaid

Just wanted to say, that is an amazing pic!


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## wildo

Castlemaid said:


> Just wanted to say, that is an amazing pic!


Thanks!!


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## Liesje

wildo said:


> I am not sure my vet offers any kind of digital copy of the xrays. He's a pretty old school vet and hasn't flooded his office with all the fancy crap that makes every other vet in this area super expensive. So how do you guys get pictures? Can I just take the xrays home and scan them on my scanner? They are likely too big for a normal home scanner. What's the process here?


Neither of mine do digitals. The x-rays are my property so I keep them. They generally do not ask if I want to keep them but when we're done I just tell them I need the films to show my breeders. I have a giant cardboard envelop at home where they are all kept. I don't have a lightbox but always photograph mine the same way. I wait for a day that my boss is on vacation b/c his cubicle will be dark. Then I change the desktop of his iMac to pure white. I tape my film on his iMac and set my camera in front of it straight on. Then I use a remote shutter release to take the pic (so there's no jiggle/blur). Then I put them on the computer to check the contrast and sharpening. This is how I've done all of these: Nikon's Films - a set on Flickr

I've also taken my camera with me to the vet b/c they have lightboxes but it ended up being too chaotic or there was too much ambient light.

If you submit the films to OFA you can pay $5 and have them returned.


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## Castlemaid

My vet uses film also, but they offered to take digital pics and email them to me at no extra charge which was very much appreciated.


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## wildo

Liesje said:


> Neither of mine do digitals. The x-rays are my property so I keep them. They generally do not ask if I want to keep them but when we're done I just tell them I need the films to show my breeders. I have a giant cardboard envelop at home where they are all kept. I don't have a lightbox but always photograph mine the same way. I wait for a day that my boss is on vacation b/c his cubicle will be dark. Then I change the desktop of his iMac to pure white. I tape my film on his iMac and set my camera in front of it straight on. Then I use a remote shutter release to take the pic (so there's no jiggle/blur). Then I put them on the computer to check the contrast and sharpening. This is how I've done all of these: Nikon's Films - a set on Flickr
> 
> I've also taken my camera with me to the vet b/c they have lightboxes but it ended up being too chaotic or there was too much ambient light.
> 
> If you submit the films to OFA you can pay $5 and have them returned.


Wow- that's a great idea! I just measured my 22" monitor and it has an actual display size of 11 3/4" x 18 1/4" That won't get the whole width, but I suspect (especially after seeing yours) that the image doesn't encompass the whole width anyway. Great idea!


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## Liesje

Yep, mine is cut off a bit but especially with the hip films there's always space alone the sides. I think we have 19" iMacs. I just tilt it so it's flat, then stack the camera on books to get the angle straight on. If you don't have a remote, just use a 10 second timer and set the camera down so there's no shake when it takes the pic. I use auto setting and then make a bit more contrast on the computer.


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## wildo

Liesje said:


> If you don't have a remote, just use a 10 second timer and set the camera down so there's no shake when it takes the pic. I use auto setting and then make a bit more contrast on the computer.


Yep- I have a self timer, a tripod, and I shoot in RAW. So I can add contrast later.


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## Liesje

Then you're all set! Yours will probably look better than mine! It is nice to have a digital copy, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to see all the fine details that might not be present.


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## wildo

I created a new thread to discuss her xrays: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...5-critique-pimgs-hips-elbows-lower-spine.html


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