# Quality/Price Question



## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

Im gonna use this as an example that I found at a breeders website. How do you know your getting say a excellent level dog vs. a quality companion dog when they are just puppies? Sorry just always wanted to know this

Quality companion/ German Shepherd Puppies with super temperament for companion/pet/protection: $2000 - $2800 

Select show quality/ German Shepherd Puppies for pet/companion/breeding potential show/schutzhund potential: $2800 - $3800. 

Excellent Select Show Quality/German Shepherd Puppies/Breed potential/Show potential/schutzhund potential : $3800 - $5800.

Special Order super show quality /Breed potential/schutzhund potential/ : $4500 - $7500.


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

Is it basically how good the parents are that they are going by?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

K9Companion said:


> Im gonna use this as an example that I found at a breeders website. How do you know your getting say a excellent level dog vs. a quality companion dog when they are just puppies? Sorry just always wanted to know this
> 
> Quality companion/ German Shepherd Puppies with super temperament for companion/pet/protection: $2000 - $2800
> 
> ...


ACK! At those prices, for an untrained puppy, I think they are ALL crazy! There's no real guarantee with a puppy, you just need to find a breeder you trust with lines/dogs that you like, and then pay a price you can afford if either the puppy does or does NOT turn out! 

I always say the money I pay for a puppy isn't for the PUPPY at all. It's to support the breeder and their program. Cause there is no real guarantee for a perfect puppy 100%, we can just make our odds way better when we find the right breeder. 

I know that you can probably find a great dog from any lines for about $1500 or less. Those prices are nuts unless money is no object and you are rich rich rich. Hey, you could have bought a yacht!


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

I got that from a kennel that I had saw someone mention on here. SO I was curious non the less


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

For $7500 you can buy a pretty darn nice titled dog. I think that's insane. 

I also don't believe in price tiering puppies unless there is a visible fault like major white spots, missing testicles, long coat etc. Most good breeders I think ask what you want and then let you know if they have it...To me, saying you want a "pet puppy" on one of these pricing schemes is asking for the puppy that someone else wouldn't pay more for...Maybe that's not really the case, but that's how it seems to me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-puppy/125165-inexpensive-options.html 
There was a thread thread had the same discussion...same price bracket pasted, from the same kennel, I'm sure. Can't remember what the title of the thread was.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeders-chat-place/127434-puppy-pricing.html


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

thanks everyone


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> This thread:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeders-chat-place/127434-puppy-pricing.html


WOW that was impressive! :thumbup:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah, those prices, as well as the entire concept, are insane and laughable to those who breed, train, trial, and show dogs from the same lines but aren't using them as status symbols or cash cows. I recognize that pricing scheme and I've yet to see these dogs represented at shows, trials, and events.

K9Companion, where are you located and what type of GSD are you looking for?


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

Hey there, Im sorta just reading on showing right now. I think thats what Id like to do. For my job we train police/military dogs so I think in my off time I would enjoy doing something else other than my normal job. Ive been reading up in the showing/conformation topic.


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

Oh yeah this was/is my current project. She is an awesome dog but she isnt really a good candidate for Sch or any other sport. She is very good at tracking however but lacks in other areas. Either way Im still getting her PENNhips in a couple months. She is 8 months, weighs 56lbs(not really sure where its all at. She is an awesome family dog and just overall really good. I bought her from a kennel down in NC. I however did not know about this forum before I bought.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I especially like the concept of:


K9Companion said:


> Special Order super show quality /Breed potential/schutzhund potential/ : $4500 - $7500.


as if they're going to build you a "special order" pup at the factory.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Emoore said:


> I especially like the concept of:
> 
> as if they're going to build you a "special order" pup at the factory.


if I visit and decide I like that dog's head, that one's ears, and that one's butt, can they assemble it for me on the spot? needle and thread and superglue?

ETA: now I have this Frankenstein image in my head. is it extra for them to put the bolts on the neck?


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Yeah, those prices, as well as the entire concept, are insane and laughable to those who breed, train, trial, and show dogs from the same lines but aren't using them as status symbols or cash cows. I recognize that pricing scheme and I've yet to see these dogs represented at shows, trials, and events.
> 
> K9Companion, where are you located and what type of GSD are you looking for?


I am not an expert, but when searching their dogs, I find a lot of their names and the Kennel owner names winning. Maybe they don't show in your area of the woods? Also, when I would visit that Kennel often before I got my amazing cash cow dog, they were always away at shows with their dogs, their personal bred dogs and purchased, high quality dogs. They DO show.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I especially like the concept of:
> 
> as if they're going to build you a "special order" pup at the factory.


I really don't think "special order" is supposed to be taken completely literally. Special Order to me, sounds like, say the person wanted a dog for certain activities, so they would pick the best of the litter, "special order", for those qualities. The breeder knows her dogs really well to be able to tell the potential at such a young age.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Or the breeder will do the interview and adjust the price according to what your "order" consists of. 
I still think it is a sad way for a breeder to rate their program...they should be breeding for the top price bracket everytime they have a litter, and not charge an exhuberant price because they are bettering the breed, breeding to standard and producing great ambassadors to the breed. And to have 6 litters constantly on the ground at once, says to me they are in it for $omething else. Just looked at the site and there are 15 litters showing from Jan thru May...


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

Ok so my question to you does this site offer a list of reputable breeders on here or do we just surf through to see who recommends who. Yeah I would have to agree breeding that many litters would tell you something.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What you should do is start another thread, and put in your order! The members here can then recommend reputable breeders that come very close to filling it...and we won't have the price bracket thingy!
There are some great showline(working, too) breeders that can be recommended, taking time to do research and looking at what they have produced should help you find your next companion.
There isn't a breeder list here, and if someone has something negative to say about a breeder, they cannot do it here by name. They can however, send you a pm and let you know their experiences. 
Advertising on this site is prohibited. Litter announcements and pics are ok, as long as you aren't trying to sell your pups.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

K9Companion said:


> Ok so my question to you does this site offer a list of reputable breeders on here or do we just surf through to see who recommends who. Yeah I would have to agree breeding that many litters would tell you something.


I don't think this site is allowed to endorse certain breeders. The best way to find out is to get out there and talk to people, visit clubs, attend shows and trials....anyone can say or post anything online (or withhold what they don't want you to see). Pictures can be doctored, pedigrees can be faked, people can make up embellished stories about themselves and their dogs. The proof is in the pudding....if you are interested in a breeder, see how active they are in the breed community and what other breeders and competitors have to say.


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

got ya thanks!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The best thing to do is to ask for reccommendations that would meet your wants, needs and expectations. Wich lines you want/prefer, what your lifestyle is, what your plans for the pup are. Whether you are open to shipping, or if you want to find a dog within driving distance, etc. Then people will recommend breeders that might work for you.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Alot of times you can look at posts here with brags and photos of litters or new puppies. Then contact them for breeder information.....

We are allowed to discuss and compare breeders as long as it's all positive. But anyone can pass on any information in PM's. 

Narrowing down the 'flavor' of GSD helps alot. You interested in showing (conformation?) or agility or search and rescue or herding or just a great family pet! Different breeders are aiming for different goals in their breeding program, so once you find one that's got what you want, it helps narrow the search down.

The best breeders will also recommend other breeders they like. When you aren't in it for the cash, but for the betterment of the breed, then you don't mind recommending another like minded breeder if you don't have any appropriate puppies available.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Or the breeder will do the interview and adjust the price according to what your "order" consists of.
> I still think it is a sad way for a breeder to rate their program...they should be breeding for the top price bracket everytime they have a litter, and not charge an exhuberant price because they are bettering the breed, breeding to standard and producing great ambassadors to the breed. And to have 6 litters constantly on the ground at once, says to me they are in it for $omething else. Just looked at the site and there are 15 litters showing from Jan thru May...


When I called initially, they asked me what my goals for the dog would be. I told them strictly companion, no showing, work, etc. Based on THAT, they decided what amount to charge me, what level of pup would suit me and my family. I see no issue with being charged more for a top quality pup. I like their pricing system. When I went to the facility many times, I could observe the pup's different behaviours, and you CAN tell potential behaviours.

And I'm GLAD they have that many dogs on the ground at one time - their dogs are fantastic, gorgeous and have fantastic linage. They are perfecting the breed with each breeding. Their dogs are a lot nice than a lot of other "pure bred" dogs I see. I have recommended them 100 percent, and will continue. All the people who have came to me about their dogs, people I have met - 110 percent love their dogs from them. I feel that this forum is too full of bias and self-absorption. 

I've read around the grape vine that some breeders start their program with a BYB dog or such. Whereas their dogs are great imported, titled dogs.

They have two different grounds, so not all 6 litters are at the same site. They have really awesome workers helping them out, really passionate, experienced people. Yeah, maybe it's a "business", but it's done in a great way. All their animals are treated well, they are very helpful and extremely knowledgeable people.


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

Well let me tell you I wasnt so lucky. I was told I had to make a decision based on pictures and that I would not get my money back if I didnt. Anyways I still love my dog and it aint her fault, I just wish I got to see the other puppies interact with each other.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

K9Companion said:


> Well let me tell you I wasnt so lucky. I was told I had to make a decision based on pictures and that I would not get my money back if I didnt. Anyways I still love my dog and it aint her fault, I just wish I got to see the other puppies interact with each other.



Where is your dog from?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

K9Companion said:


> Well let me tell you I wasnt so lucky. I was told I had to make a decision based on pictures and that I would not get my money back if I didnt. Anyways I still love my dog and it aint her fault, I just wish I got to see the other puppies interact with each other.


Many people buy dogs from/through friends and reputable acquaintances based on pictures or sight unseen, but no breeder should flat out refuse to allow you to see the dogs, puppies, and facilities if you are willing to make the trip. My puppy was basically picked for me. We visited once at four weeks, but to be honest I'm not really that ga-ga over puppies and already knew the breeder, the dam of the litter, and all the other dogs. When I went to pick him up, we spent some time playing around and just making sure that the one she had in mind wanted to be my puppy. I was not particularly involved in "picking", other than the breeder knowing me very well and understanding what I was looking for. Other buyers visit the puppies weekly and are more involved in their "pick". Over the holidays I "borrowed" another puppy from the same breeder, again just let her make the pick based on knowing me, my lifestyle, and how I work with my dogs. The puppy I had for several weeks is still my favorite of that litter. Is it because the breeder picked the perfect match, or I grew to like that puppy and molded her to my liking? Who knows, lol!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> When I called initially, they asked me what my goals for the dog would be. I told them strictly companion, no showing, work, etc. Based on THAT, they decided what amount to charge me, what level of pup would suit me and my family. I see no issue with being charged more for a top quality pup. I like their pricing system. When I went to the facility many times, I could observe the pup's different behaviours, and you CAN tell potential behaviours.
> 
> .... their dogs are great imported, titled dogs.
> 
> .... All their animals are treated well, they are very helpful and extremely knowledgeable people.


Thing is, you can get exactly the same thing from a smaller responsible breeder, and pay alot less. 

Your goals were good. Sounds like you got a great dog. But did you have to pay so much? Maybe not..... I personally would rather take the difference in cost and spend it on great training with my dog, vacations with my dog, fun and wonderful things with my dog.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Thing is, you can get exactly the same thing from a smaller responsible breeder, and pay alot less.
> 
> Your goals were good. Sounds like you got a great dog. But did you have to pay so much? Maybe not..... I personally would rather take the difference in cost and spend it on great training with my dog, vacations with my dog, fun and wonderful things with my dog.


It's true, you can get close to or the same thing from another breeder. I just don't think this certain breeder is as bad as everyone says, since I have first hand experience and know a lot of people with positive experiences. 

I honestly don't mind the price, I guess we knew we were able to spend the money, justify it, and still do a lot of things with my dog. We've gone on a lot of vacations together, some training courses, dog parks, great Vet care, etc etc. I know a lot of people aren't in our situation, and maybe that's why the price is so intimidating. But I guess, I don't think I'd spend $7500 on a pup myself (I would on a fully trained adult though), but for what kind of pup I was looking for, I knew it wasn't going to be more than $2500.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, I guess if imported parents and a fantastic pedigree and a breeder that has enough prestige that he can sell his pups at those high-end prices is important to you, then you found exactly what you were looking for, so good for you! 
The main thing is that you are happy with you dog.

But 7500 for a pup with "Breeding and Schutzhung potential"? At that price you can buy a titled adult that has already had all health clearances and proven his or her potential.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Well, I guess if imported parents and a fantastic pedigree and a breeder that has enough prestige that he can sell his pups at those high-end prices is important to you, then you found exactly what you were looking for, so good for you!
> The main thing is that you are happy with you dog.


I think you're getting a bit sarcastic. It's kind of rude. I don't appreciate it much.

Isn't that what everyone is looking for?
1. Great parents with good lineage.
2. Good pedigree.
3. A knowledgeable, good breeder.

Price has nothing to do with it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Castlemaid said:


> Well, I guess if imported parents and a fantastic pedigree and a breeder that has enough prestige that he can sell his pups at those high-end prices is important to you, then you found exactly what you were looking for, so good for you!
> The main thing is that you are happy with you dog.
> 
> But 7500 for a pup with "Breeding and Schutzhung potential"? At that price you can buy a titled adult that has already had all health clearances and proven his or her potential.


Prestige is important to some people, so there is definitely a niche/market for it. I do find that price quote ironic though, as I've never seen a dog from this kennel (and all the others in cahoots, with similar importing practices and pricing schemes...no point in singling anyone out) entered in a Schutzhund event (or ANY performance/sport event that I have attended or competed in in the past several years), and I am a nerd that reads ALL of the trial results in both the WDA and USA magazines. IMO, *any* German Shepherd dog should have "Schutzhund potential". How much you pay up front is not going to compensate for actual training and trialing.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Prestige is important to some people, so there is definitely a niche/market for it. I do find that price quote ironic though, as I've never seen a dog from this kennel (and all the others in cahoots, with similar importing practices and pricing schemes...no point in singling anyone out) entered in a Schutzhund event (or ANY performance/sport event that I have attended or competed in in the past several years), and I am a nerd that reads ALL of the trial results in both the WDA and USA magazines. IMO, *any* German Shepherd dog should have "Schutzhund potential". How much you pay up front is not going to compensate for actual training and trialing.


I'm sick of the grouping and bias all over this forum. So, to join the general taste, I give sarcasm.

I guess they were lying to me when they were bathing/grooming their dogs, showing me their set-up, oh yeah and then the next day when I visited, they both weren't there because they were traveling to show some of their dogs. They must have been hiding somewhere, **** those nasty breeders with those high prices - **** them! You've never seen them? This must be hard, cold, truth. Thank you Lies, for showing me the light that they are scam artists. I'm so glad you travel all over the country scoping out shows. Oh and the Internet!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lying about what? Why scope out shows when you can just read published results?


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Lying about what? Why scope out shows when you can just read published results?



I'm just lost. I've seen her name, and several Kolenda dogs + other dogs they own on the Internet. I'm not a dog show expert, but whatever. You know best.

I have this, whatever it is, in my bookmarks. Find Kolenda. http://nassresults.com/2008%20Results/3-6%20Male.htm

Just do a quick Google search, so far I found 5, with multiple dogs.


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

I sent a PM to the person who was asking that I got my GSD from. I kinda got the impression that the breeder had many inquiries from locals in North Carolina that wanted a certain puppy for their families so thats why I was told that I need to make a decision. Geeze let me tell you.(If I can) The parents I saw on the video performed awesome and looked like they were titled and had the paperwork with it.. When I got there and took a few bites from the dogs I realized they werent as strong as I thought. Then they brought my puppy out and they had crap all over her(like real poop) I felt so **** bad for the puppy. The kennel runs were some thrown up chainlink in dirt which looked like they had alot more dogs than previously stated. Overall just not a good experience. It almost makes me not want to try all over again and I really want too. I dont just have a thousand bucks laying around to throw away. Once again Im a dog lover so I would not return her if I could do it over again.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> I think you're getting a bit sarcastic. It's kind of rude. I don't appreciate it much.
> 
> Isn't that what everyone is looking for?
> 1. Great parents with good lineage.
> ...


No, I'm serious, I'm not being sarcastic.  I still think the marketing and the pricing is ridiculous, and the marketing is actually pretty genius - but really, you are happy with your choice, than that is what counts - and money has nothing to do with it.

People can very easily feel that way about my choice of where I got my dog from. I'm sure that in some circles I frequent, people may not understand why I would choose to pay what I paid for my puppy, and go outside the country and have a dog shipped to me sight unseen, and why I would be interested in those particular lines and types of dogs. But it is really none of their business why I went the route I chose, and bought from the breeder that I bought from. I'm happy with my choice, and feel I did choose well. 

However, if anyone asks me for advice, I will always direct them towards small hobby breeders who only breed one or two litters a year, train and trial their own dogs in a working venue to show that they breed true to the GSD standard, not just by producing nice looking dogs, but by producing what the GSD was meant to be: a working dog, and have a reasonable pricing scheme.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> I'm just lost. I've seen her name, and several Kolenda dogs + other dogs they own on the Internet. I'm not a dog show expert, but whatever. You know best.
> 
> I have this, whatever it is, in my bookmarks. Find Kolenda. http://nassresults.com/2008 Results/3-6 Male.htm
> 
> Just do a quick Google search, so far I found 5, with multiple dogs.


Yes, I saw the team and the dogs at NASS 2008 (and USA SS 2009). However that was conformation, not Schutzhund (I was responding to the segment Lucia had posted, which refers to Schutzhund). Also NASS 2008 was over a year ago, the most recent NASS was in California this past fall: results


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Yes, I saw the team and the dogs at NASS 2008 (and USA SS 2009). However that was conformation, not Schutzhund (I was responding to the segment Lucia had posted, which refers to Schutzhund). Also NASS 2008 was over a year ago, the most recent NASS was in California this past fall: results


I guess I was talking about showing in general. So far I've found 11, with many more to be found. They are out there, maybe not at all shows, and Schutzhund.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sigurd's Mom, it really sounds like the dogs from the kennel are very well taken care of, I don't believe anyone is saying that the dogs are bad, or the breeder is bad, but the kennel is really going for the prestige market with their pricing system and the way they describe the pups and their potential. People are just paying extra for words. 

If the dogs were as promised, and the pricing reflected that, why are there not more show champions produced by this kennel, and where are all those puppies with so much schutzhund potential that they are selling them at the price of proven adult SchH titled dogs? 

People who are serious about competition choose different lines to take them to their goals, because price alone does not determine the potential of a puppy.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

I'm not sure what a NASS show is, but I looked through the results and see none of the more popular kennels on here, so I guess it's not so bad that Kolenda didn't get on the lists either. Either that or I'm blind, haha.

I'm glad that we all can agree that it's just personal preference, and that the dogs aren't so bad. I feel like they are family, as Sigurd's my CHILD basically, so it hits home when I see false things/bad mouthing. It's not even this thread, there have been so many. When I signed up for this, you would not believe the amount of private PM's I got about the breeder, telling me this and that.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I just wanted to add too, that there are members on this board that feel that buying titled dogs is elitist nonsense when you can get a nice dog out of the newpaper or off the internet for a couple of hundred, or even for free. (and I used to feel that way too before I learned more about all the issues involved in ethical GSD breeding). 

Others may feel that my choice of a breeder was also an attempt from my part to buy into prestige, but I really don't care what others may think. I know what I wanted, I knew what was important to me, I did my research, and I went with a breeder that closely reflected my beliefs of what responsible breeding is all about and with a proven track record in all the areas that I cared about. so I bought the dog for me, not because I wanted or needed approval from others.

I may not always agree with how other breeders go about breeding, but I can tell you that every single dog owned by every single member on this board, in my eyes, is a fantastic dog, because I know that each dog is priceless in their owner's eyes, regardless of where it came from, and worthy of all our love and admiration.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> Isn't that what everyone is looking for?
> 
> 1. Great parents with good lineage.
> 2. Good pedigree.
> ...


You are right, that IS what we should all be looking for. And I personally don't know the expensive breeder but I'm sure their dogs are wonderful and are taken care of. THAT isn't what most of us are concerned with.

It's the fact that to some extent, your 'price has nothing to do with it' IS our point. You can get a similar wonderful puppy from similar wonderful TITLED parent dogs for much less money. 

So same quality adults that are well cared for. Same wonderful puppy with great potential.

But if I can have the same parent dogs, and the same puppy, I choose to NOT spend any more than I have to. And in my experience I've obtained 2 puppies like that and never paid over $1500 (less actually). 

My point would be though you CAN spend $7500 on a puppy, why not look around and find that same puppy with same qualifiers for a more reasonable price? Like going to a car dealership and immediately paying the sticker price instead of buying the exact same car down the street from someone who knows the sticker price is ridiculous and is willing to get down to more what the value of the car really is. The exact same car.

That said, if anyone out there can pay full price without blinking an eye, then good for them. The fact they at least knew to go to a breeder that's breeding the dogs they like, is more than most people bother to do.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I just wanted to add too, that there are members on this board that feel that buying titled dogs is elitist nonsense when you can get a nice dog out of the newpaper or off the internet for a couple of hundred, or even for free. (and I used to feel that way too before I learned more about all the issues involved in ethical GSD breeding).
> 
> Others may feel that my choice of a breeder was also an attempt from my part to buy into prestige, but I really don't care what others may think. I know what I wanted, I knew what was important to me, I did my research, and I went with a breeder that closely reflected my beliefs of what responsible breeding is all about and with a proven track record in all the areas that I cared about. so I bought the dog for me, not because I wanted or needed approval from others.
> 
> I may not always agree with how other breeders go about breeding, but I can tell you that every single dog owned by every single member on this board, in my eyes, is a fantastic dog, because I know that each dog is priceless in their owner's eyes, regardless of where it came from, and worthy of all our love and admiration.


Thank you for this comment, I really like your attitude towards the whole issue. I agree 100% with your last paragraph.

Sorry if I came off as a bit rude myself, or thought that your earlier comment was sarcasm. :gsdbeggin:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't think that the issue so much is that you can have the same thing for a lower price - I'd be willing to pay more to support a breeder with whose practices and philosophies I believe in, but rather that that particular kennel is making claims that are unsubstantiated - but their wording is smart: only potential is promised, so nothing guaranteed. However, the vast difference in the pricing scheme does create an impression that one is buying a vastly superior product - and I hate to say that the pups are a "product", but that is how they are being promoted and marketed. 

Again, if you agree with this, and don't have a problem with it, fine! But trying to point out to others who inquire some of the psychology behind this kind of selling technique. 

And personally, I feel that good breeders don't need to resort to this kind of marketing, word of mouth is all the marketing and advetising they need.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> I'm not sure what a NASS show is, but I looked through the results and see none of the more popular kennels on here, so I guess it's not so bad that Kolenda didn't get on the lists either. Either that or I'm blind, haha.


NASS is the North American Sieger Show, the Sieger Show for the GSDCA-WDA (biggest show all year). The 2009 entries were lower and did not represent as many kennels, probably because it was on the extreme west coast so you see west coast kennels (Wuestenburger Land, Bullinger, TeMar, etc). If NASS were on the east coast, I could guarantee the majority of entries would be Wilhendorf, Globalhaus...the east coast kennels. There's better overall representation when it's hosted in the middle of the country, but one would think that such a large, commercial "show" kennel would make a point of traveling.

This was the last conformation show in the area before winter hit (all shows are exclusively outdoors, I think the first show in the area will be April 3 in Illinois): Chicago Schutzhund Verein

Mid-West regional was May 2009: http://www.toplinegsdc.com/09showresults2.doc

2008 regional: Chicago Schutzhund Verein

(note: MI is technically in a different region but my club is the only active WDA club in the state and we just became a WDA club last month, so Michigan breeders/dogs basically show in the mid-west region because of how many shows there are in/around Chicago all year. There has never been a WDA show in Michigan.)


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## K9Companion (Feb 18, 2010)

Its nice that I have only 15 posts on this board and have created a great discussion lol jk. Really wish I would have googled this board a long time ago but owell. You guys/gals seem to be very helpful.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

K9Companion said:


> Its nice that I have only 15 posts on this board and have created a great discussion lol jk. Really wish I would have googled this board a long time ago but owell. You guys/gals seem to be very helpful.


Welcome to the board and it has been a great discussion...:wub:

I always love when members in a thread clearly don't agree but are still able to post their opinions and be nice about it! (just keep in mind I'm always right, almost always, pretty much most of the time, ok in the agility threads anyways...)


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I'd like to make a simple comment....
There is no reason that any buyer cannot find the "perfect" puppy for them.....just take your time.
As for the prices of many "large scale" breeders......$$$$ does NOT mean better or quality. It simply means that you are paying for a "Kennel Name"....not the puppy itself.
If a breeder has 8 to 20 litters a year......chances are..."odds are in favor"...that they may produce a nice dog here and there....._they have to_....statistics *suggest* that they should. If a breeder produces 2-5 litters a year, AND can produce as many or MORE exceptional puppies/dogs competing, AND doing well?......then _they_ breed better dogs.......statistics *prove* they do.
I do not bash other breeders......but I can attest that I know many of them.....we all travel the same circuits.
If *any* puppy purchaser "chooses" to spend (multi $$) on *any* puppy from *any* breeder.....*and* the buyer feels satisfied?!.....no wrong doing was done.
You cannot "steal" from a person who is willing to give.......
Personally (as a breeder).....puppy prices should not exceed $2500 for almost ANY reason......there are those "special exceptions"!!.
JMO...not intended to offend anyone.
Robin


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Quoting Lies


> I do find that price quote ironic though, as I've never seen a dog from this kennel (and all the others in cahoots, with similar importing practices and pricing schemes...no point in singling anyone out) entered in a Schutzhund event *(or ANY performance/sport event that I have attended or competed in in the past several years), and I am a nerd that reads ALL of the trial results in both the WDA and USA magazines.*





> *Yes, I saw the team and the dogs at NASS 2008 (and USA SS 2009)*


One of their own bred dogs, being used as a stud at their kennel:

V Ilac vom Kolenda SchH1 Kkl 1a

3X SG1, 2X SG2, 1XSG3 In Germany & 2X VP1 In USA

2007 SG1 Regional Show Germany

2007 VP1 USA Sieger Show

2006 VP1 North American Sieger Show 

Does this mean his titles are bogus as they've never been in any Schutzhund events?

I see a lot of their dogs with SchH titles, though, when searching about. Not just this one that they chose to use for breeding.

Look at the show record
a lot of their dogs have won things and have SchH titles.
V Amara vom Kolenda SchH1 Kkl Top V rated German Shepherd Conformation Show.

V Mai vom Kolenda SchH1 Kkl Top V rated.

V Ilac vom Kolenda SchH1 Kkl 1a Top V rated Germany.

SG6 Kookie vom Kolenda 2004 German Shepherd North American Seiger Show

SG8 Cora vom Kolenda II 2004 German Shepherd North American Seiger Show

VP6 Donar vom Kolenda 2004 German Shepherd North American Seiger Show

VP8 Arkon vom Kolenda 2005 German Shepherd North American Seiger Show

VP8 Blitz vom Kolenda 2006 German Shepherd North American Seiger Show

2X-VP1 Ilac vom Kolenda 1st place German Shepherd North American Sieger Show 2006,

1st Place German Shepherd USA Sieger Show 2007, 2X-SG2 Germany.

SG Fussen vom Kolenda VP3 2005 German Shepherd North American Sieger Show, VP3 2006 German Shepherd USA Sieger Show,

SG5 2007 German Shepherd German Shepherd USA Sieger Show.

VP5 Falstaff vom Kolenda VP5 2005 German Shepherd North American Sieger Show.

VP5 Jeck vom Kolenda 2006 German Shepherd USA Sieger Show.

VP3 Tessa vom Kolenda 2007 WDA Northeastern German Shepherd Regional Sieger Show.

VP4 Anna vom Kolenda 2007 WDA Northeastern German Shepherd Regional Sieger Show

VP6 Blitz vom Kolenda II 2007 German Shepherd North American Sieger Show.

VP9 Arko ( Karly) vom Kolenda 2007 German Shepherd North American Sieger Show.

SG1 Ilac vom Kolenda 2007 German Regional Show.

3X's SG1 Ilac vom Kolenda 2008 Germany..

VP8 Blitz vom Kolenda ll 2008 South East Regional Sieger Show

SG Arkon vom Kolenda NASS 2008

P Hoku Ala vom Kolenda NASS 2008

VP12 Berrin Johnson vom Kolenda NASS 2008

VP7 Otto vom Kolenda NASS 2008.

VP Nettie vom Kolenda USA Sieger Show 2009

VP Ricco vom Kolenda USA Sieger Show 2009

P Olympia vom Kolenda USA Sieger Show 2009 


I guess I don't really care about titles, who did this and who was in this and that show. I just want to point out that THEY are out there. I'm not an expert, or even close to even knowing a smudge about showing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> *I don't think that the issue so much is that you can have the same thing for a lower price - I'd be willing to pay more to support a breeder with whose practices and philosophies I believe in*, but rather that that particular kennel is making claims that are unsubstantiated - but their wording is smart: only potential is promised, so nothing guaranteed. However, the vast difference in the pricing scheme does create an impression that one is buying a vastly superior product - and I hate to say that the pups are a "product", but that is how they are being promoted and marketed.


I agree with you about paying more to support breeders whose practices and philosophies I believe in, but I think it's also a valid point that you CAN get very comparable dogs (in terms of pedigree) for a LOT less. Dena was a Kevin vom Murrtal daughter and I paid $1500 for her. You really don't need to spend anywhere near $7500 or even $5000 for a puppy out of the big showline names, if that's what you're looking for.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> I guess I don't really care about titles, who did this and who was in this and that show. I just want to point out that THEY are out there. I'm not an expert, or even close to even knowing a smudge about showing.


Not saying they don't show (though I do find it odd that a show line kennel with such a high volume has not shown since the 2009 USA SS which was almost a year ago). Again my comment referred to what Lucia said about Schutzhund. Buying dogs that have been titled in Germany is vastly different from training and trialing dogs. I train and title dogs myself but still would not presume to think I could accurately evaluate a dog's Schutzhund potential and make prices based on evaluations of an 8 week old dog, not without years, perhaps decades of training and trailing at that level. Many great hobby breeders who do have years of experience competing in Schutzhund do not offer elaborate pricing schemes based on supposed potential. I think ALL reputably bred GSDs should have the potential to earn SchH titles and get conformation ratings. That should just be a given, IMO. Sorting them out farther than that I'm not sure can be accurately done at such a young age and/or by someone who has not done the foundation work on the dog.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Showing doesn't mean a thing to me regarding the purchase of a pup. Volume can increase one's chances of producing showable stock and I see dogs suffer because of this endeavor all the time.

It is important to remember to keep things in their separate boxes. I have friends who love their dogs like children. This does nothing to affect where the dogs came from or the situation they were bred in. Two very separate things.


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## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

I have to say, and Im not going to say the amount, but my husband and I paid a pretty penny for our Phantom...

Firstly, I fell in love with him through pictures no matter what he was going to cost, second, now that he's been here for almost a week, Im seeing through his disposition that they really did a fantastic job with him. From his crate, car, food, commands, leash training. Im just amazed at how good a dog can be. He is 8 months old.

My husband and I don't really have the time or patience to potty train a little puppy or we would have spent a lot less, this was definitely worth it for US. I cry just thinking about losing him (i know we wouldnt), I absolutely adore him.

He is first generation born here, both his parents are from Germany, which doesnt really matter that much to me because his purpose is to be a family dog. He's just too pretty not to love.

Now, my husband and I inquired about another adult male from a different breeder... I wont name them. But they wanted $35,000....

Im sorry, but you are FRIGGIN insane breeder!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

you spent a pretty penny on Phantom and he came to you with domedic mange...I hope the breeder will try to irradicate that from their kennel.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Young dogs around the age of puberty sometimes come down with a mild case of mange. All dogs carry the mites - but most have a strong enough immune system to keep them at bay.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wouldn't you think though, the breeder would have given Rachel a heads up on it, and have been treating it before sending Phantom to his new home?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Most mild cases of mange are not treated and clear up all on their own.


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## lcordova (Jun 4, 2006)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> ..... I'm glad that we all can agree that it's just personal preference, and that the dogs aren't so bad. I feel like they are family, as Sigurd's my CHILD basically, so it hits home when I see false things/bad mouthing......


Sigurds Mom,

In this post nobody has bad mouth the breeder you defend or said the dogs are bad. The only thing that has been implied is that it is not one of the BEST breeders or the Breeder many people here will choose.

if you bought from them and you are happy, then GREAT !!!, you dont need to defend them...or to do it as a way to defend your choice. 
You are happy with Sigurd, thats the only thing that should be important for you. It would be sad if you were not happy with your dog (a problem thousand of people has).

What this forum has taught many people (including me), is that the BEST breeders share traits that the breeder you bought from doesnt has (like training all or most of their dogs and avoiding ridiculous pricing brackets like this one...among many desirable criteria to look after in the best breeders).

So dont try to defend the indefensible...), you are lucky in having a great dog whom you really love. 
I would finish by saying that I think it seems that you got a GREAT dog from a reeasonable breeder. Thats the same than getting a GREAT dog from the BEST breeder or a GREAT dog from a so-so breeder... what matters where you bought it??? It only matters your result.

Luis
(as always sorry for my spelling or similar errors)


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

I couldn't justify spending $7500 on a puppy even as a Schutzhund prospect. My 10 month old pup comes from working lines (paternal grand sire is Justin vom Pendel Bach) and our trainer has indicated that she has nice drives, sound temperament, and a nice full grip. My goal was to bring home an active companion that could help me get started in Schutzhund.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i have never had good luck buying from big name breeders........either had lack of support or temperment issues............

the best gsd's i ever had were the ones i bought in my own back yard and pick them out myself................

money really doesn't have anything to do with it,.........if you want a flashy kennel name thats what your paying for..........doesn't necessarily mean your going to end up with a solid pup......why pay the steep prices when its a gamble........when you can find a small responsible kennel in your own back yard...........just my humble opinion since i have done both and had better luck close to home where i can visit and interact.......


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

tintallie said:


> I couldn't justify spending $7500 on a puppy even as a Schutzhund prospect. My 10 month old pup comes from working lines (paternal grand sire is Justin vom Pendel Bach) and our trainer has indicated that she has nice drives, sound temperament, and a nice full grip. My goal was to bring home an active companion that could help me get started in Schutzhund.


Agreed!
IMO the dog would only be worth $7500 after I had spent that much on training, titling and everything that goes with SchH training. 
Not spending the $7500 on a pup to get into the sport.
And then I would go with a working line from a breeder that titles their own, not a showline from a commercial kennel that buys already titled or sends their dogs out for titles.


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## DonP (Apr 13, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> ... unless there is a visible fault like major white spots, missing testicles, long coat etc.


 
Long coat is no longer a fault, just a variation. The SV has accepted long coats for breeding.


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> Agreed!
> IMO the dog would only be worth $7500 after I had spent that much on training, titling and everything that goes with SchH training.
> Not spending the $7500 on a pup to get into the sport.
> And then I would go with a working line from a breeder that titles their own, not a showline from a commercial kennel that buys already titled or sends their dogs out for titles.


Even, if someone paid $7500 for a puppy, there's no guarantee that it's health with be perfect, that it has perfect conformation (sometimes those testicles don't drop or worse they drop and disappear again!), or that it could get pushed too quickly into training and be ruined.

I could buy 5 working line puppies easily with that amount of money and increase my chances of getting the "right" dog that way! LOL (I don't have the resources for 5 pups raised separately! One is plenty for me right now)


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

My advice?

Showing is VERY POLITICAL. If you are serious about it, I would suggest going with an ACTIVELY showing kennel, and letting them know that you have the finances and ability to travel and promote the puppy. They will support you if you are serious and give you a promising puppy. If you are not serious about showing or just want to do it for fun, go with a smaller less well-known kennel.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

tintallie said:


> Even, if someone paid $7500 for a puppy, there's no guarantee that it's health with be perfect, that it has perfect conformation (sometimes those testicles don't drop or worse they drop and disappear again!), or that it could get pushed too quickly into training and be ruined.
> 
> I could buy 5 working line puppies easily with that amount of money and increase my chances of getting the "right" dog that way! LOL (I don't have the resources for 5 pups raised separately! One is plenty for me right now)


If we tallied everything we spent to train, title, vetting, etc our dog, then it would be worth the $7500...not an 8 week old pup with a clean slate(and no guarentee that it would be perfect) for that amount. 
That is what I was trying to say.:crazy:
And Branca's mom, I agree~ the more a kennel is represented in any venue speaks for the breeders program and what they are producing.


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