# Puppy jealousy and aggression



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm starting a new thread. A new problem has arose and it's getting worse. My older dog (4 years) is really timid, submissive and the sweetest dog. the puppy is 3mo and I think he's picking up on that she doesnt defend herself ever as time goes on and he's not only bullying her but hes starting to attack. (she doesn't. she's been attacked 3 times and never once defended herself. she just yelps) 

He is now blocking her from sitting next to me or anyone, or when she sits next to me, he will sit near her until she moves. Then he claims the spot. this isn't an issue but he is lunging at her and trying to bite her aggressively if I keep calling her. She wont come near me and she cowers away. This is not just space, but food, toys. He's getting possessive. 

I restricted all his resources and he's getting better training wise but he is not taking to her. I will rehome him if I feel like my older pup is in danger of getting hurt or if this is an issue that will require them to be separate their whole lives. 

What do you guys think?


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My younger male started doing this with my older male, when he was about 4-5 months. My older male doesn't fight back, which I'm thankful for. It steadily got worse. When he was 17 months old he was neutered, in our case it helped tremendously. He does it every now and then now and it's still a work in progress. I correct him every time. He is not allowed to sit in front of me ever and if I can't physically move him I move. 

I do believe that if he was corrected by the older male when he was younger it would never have progressed. He knows he can get away with it with him. I don't like bullying, so I stay on top of it the best I can. My female did correct the younger male one time when he was younger and he has never crossed her again. They are actually pretty close now. 

My female is recovering from surgery and a couple weeks ago the older male must have gotten to close to her and she growled. It's not normal for her, but she hasn't been herself and I know she was protecting herself. She couldn't move fast enough to get to him, but my younger male came out of nowhere and was on the older male in a blink. My main concern was the female and holding her back because I don't need her to injure herself. I was not in a good position, finally my older male used his whole body and stood on the younger male, giving me the chance to grab him. It as loud, but no dogs were injured--not a mark on them and I don't know how. I did sprain my thumb when I grabbed them. 

Once my hand is healed, I am going back to classes with both males. They don't have to like each other but I do expect them to be neutral. 

Your female does not deserve what is being done, you have to step in and it has to be now. Do not wait for it to get worse. If your female has enough, she will eventually snap back. That will either cause more issues or stop it in it's tracks, but you don't want it to go there.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

That was what Im worried about. I live in a small house so leaving them alone together was my goal for her but if they cant, it defeats the purpose. and i dont want it to get to where she bites back either. I may have to return him. He hasnt had a dog correct him because my older pup is the first dog he is socialized with. If it was a bolder dog that put him in his place, he may learn "humility" but not sure. 

What if I take him to the dog park and let the dogs correct his behavior? Would that settle his attitude at home?


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

How old is he? How long have you had him? Do you use a crate?


I wasn't trying to scare you, I have 8 dogs right now and for the most part they get along, but every now and then one of them can have a bad day, I do not hold it against them, but I learn from it and I know each individual dog. I can read them like a book.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

hes 3 mo and had him a few days. Im wondering if its a compatibilty issue from my older dog due to her being over submissive. She has been attacked 3 times randomly and never defended and I think dogs can sense when theres weakness. The pup supposedly lived with another small dog when he was young but i dont know what to do.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

I am debating if I should take him to the dog park where he might socialize and learn some manners from dogs that will show him how to behave. I know a puppy doesnt know anything. And his limited interaction may have him thinking he's king of the world because my older is just too much of a pushover. But I'll give that a shot he needs some strong dogs that will show him it's not okay to get into your face or hog water or get possessive. Or maybe he'll be like that forever with my older.. It's hard to know for sure and I dont want to risk either of them getting hurt.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

pancake said:


> I am debating if I should take him to the dog park where he might socialize and learn some manners from dogs that will show him how to behave. I know a puppy doesnt know anything. And his limited interaction may have him thinking he's king of the world because my older is just too much of a pushover. But I'll give that a shot he needs some strong dogs that will show him it's not okay to get into your face or hog water or get possessive. Or maybe he'll be like that forever with my older.. It's hard to know for sure and I don't want to risk either of them getting hurt.


Well ... I'm a bit confused because in the other thread you make sense but "this" that is just a very poor plan on so many levels. 

But if you "want" a dog with problems ... go with that.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... I'm a bit confused because in the other thread you make sense but "this" that is just a very poor plan on so many levels.
> 
> But if you "want" a dog with problems ... go with that.


Please explain? 

Im still doing all the training but Im wondering if the lack of exposure to older dogs has got the puppy over confident.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

I have to decide if I should rehome him or if I should give formal obedience training a shot to see if his overall demeanor changes once he gets trained. I'm getting an overwhelming response from another board about how he may just need another loving home that doesn't have a dog like mine. I may call a profession trainer and give it another week with careful watching and separate feeding, toys.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

pancake said:


> Please explain?
> 
> Im still doing all the training but Im wondering if the lack of exposure to older dogs has got the puppy over confident.


LOL well ... I packed a lot of info in those links. One of them being this one:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

In there you will find Leerburghs "Why Dog Parks are a bad Idea" and another article on "Three Dog Who Should Not be at a Dog Park." 

I had one of the those three dogs, number two in fact an "American Band Dawg" that was the first dog I ever had a "Pro" evaluate. He said not aggressive just a Dominate Male dog. So he would not fight to kill but he would no problem doing the bully thing and what happens, happens. 

Pretty much a dog that would think a dog fight is just another day at the "Dog Park" no behavioural issues to be fixed for him. 

I chose not to make my problem someone else's problem. People expect to see dogs like my "Boxer" a balanced dog (who did not go to Dog Parks) but it's a mixed bag. You don't who is there with what on any given day at a Dog Park??

Dogs do get killed and maimed at Dogs Parks all the time. And for some reason it's usually a white Boxer pup when I see a story. Last one I knew of needed 15000 dollars worth of reconstructive surgery to repair skull damage and he also lost an eye. 

Yep it could have happened anywhere but it did not. That particular owner most likely "unknowingly" actively made a choice to put her dog in harm's way. Face Book thing ... I did not tell her that but if she were a member on BoxerForum I might have gotten to her first?? 

And right now we have this mess going on a poster who wanted to use random unknow dogs to "school" his dog as it were. It's not working out too well??

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ther-problem;-vicious-barking-other-dogs.html

Known safe stable dogs only is the best approach ... if you must. For me I have a "Zero" other dogs policy. And my dogs even the Band Dawg, have no issue being around other dogs and why would they?? They have never been attacked. 

At anyrate and with less "heat" ... no competent trainer would tell you that what you propose is a good idea. 

It's late so some of the regulars aren't here but they may give you better options for your over confident puppy?? 

But yeah I think your plan A is not a good one.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> LOL well ... I packed a lot of info in those links. One of them being this one:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html
> 
> ...


Gotcha, that makes perfect sense now. I'm sad.. my older pup won't eat a treat I gave her. She normally does. She's my priority and I am going to rehome the pup and keep them separate until I do so. I wish I had hope but it just looks like my older dog is best being alone and is happy that way.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

No to the dog park. I haveca dog that was badly attacked at the dog park when he was about 3 months old and he didn't have any kind of attitude, a very happy golden. Puppies generally get what is called a puppy pass in the doggie world, but not all dogs give it. You do not want your pup to meet a strange dog that either attacks or bullies him. Your dogs do not need interaction with other dogs, they need training and socialization. 

You need to take both dogs to classes separately. The older one so you can bond more with her and give her some much needed confidence. The pup for socialization, bonding and mental exercise. You need to give them time together and apart. For example take her outside play some tug, let her win a few times, while the pup is a crate. Then take the pup out and do the same. Take a walk with them both daily, so it's more neutral ground. Come back and do a brief obedience lesson with both. A couple sits and they get treats. 

The puppy does not know how to act, you have to teach him. Your older dog is not used to a rambunctious pup all over the place. These things take time. With proper training it can be done. 

When I got my older male GSD at the pound he was like 8 months. I brought my female GSD to meet him. The first meeting was him jumping on her and her growling at him. I was unsure but they said it would be fine and it was. You just have to look at the dog in front of you and train accordingly. Not all dogs are the same. Some require more physical then mental exercise, some vice versa, and some need a good balance. Exercise your pup, a tired pup is a good pup. 

It is way to early in the game to say the pup doesn't belong. Do not over think everything. No one can see what is going on except you. Most people don't read these dogs right at all. 

Right now you have a pup that is resource guarding you, nip that in the bud and move forward and I repeat NO DOG PARK at this time. Maybe later, but GSDs don't make good dog park dogs. I take a couple of mine seimming at the local park, mine stay in the water and there is very little interaction with other dogs or I go early when none are there. Every GSD I have sern there, except for one white GSD has been an issue, either guarding their toys or stalking other dogs.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

A crate is your friend right now, use it as a tool to help when the pup needs to chill or when he is getting to be to much for the older dog.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

pancake said:


> I'm starting a new thread. A new problem has arose and it's getting worse. My older dog (4 years) is really timid, submissive and the sweetest dog. the puppy is 3mo and I think he's picking up on that she doesnt defend herself ever as time goes on and he's not only bullying her but hes starting to attack. (she doesn't. she's been attacked 3 times and never once defended herself. she just yelps)
> 
> He is now blocking her from sitting next to me or anyone, or when she sits next to me, he will sit near her until she moves. Then he claims the spot. this isn't an issue but he is lunging at her and trying to bite her aggressively if I keep calling her. She wont come near me and she cowers away. This is not just space, but food, toys. He's getting possessive.
> 
> ...


Do not allow it. Keep your pup on a leash, if you have to. My older dog is a 30 pound 4 year old hound mix. My shepherd is a 70 pound almost 2 year old. I have always monitored the two of them carefully, due to the size difference. I do not allow rough housing EVER. I do not allow blocking, guarding or bullying of any kind.

You are responsible for standing up for your adult dog. The space belongs to you. Everything belongs to you. Make that clear to him.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

He is 3 months old and you have only had him a few days. Give him a chance. You are assuming the puppy runs the house. You do. You need to teach him what he can and can't do. My dogs each push the other out of the way to get attention, because they want to be part of the group and I'm the leader. Socialization with other dogs doesn't teach him how to get along with her.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

What to Expect: Introducing a Puppy to Your Adult Dogs | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

Puppy behavior is a reflector of how they behave with littermates. Growling and making noises is a way of communicating. Your handling makes all the difference in future interactions. What did you do when the puppy growled?

I just saw you are rehoming the puppy. Since you have made up your mind, that is probably the best choice.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

pancake said:


> Gotcha, that makes perfect sense now. I'm sad.. my older pup won't eat a treat I gave her. She normally does. She's my priority and *I am going to rehome the pup *and keep them separate until I do so. I wish I had hope but it just looks like my older dog is best being alone and is happy that way.


I missed that too. If you feel this is what you need to do, in the best interest of your older dog, it is the right thing. Thank you for considering your older dog. She was there first. I am very sorry you had to make the difficult decision to rehome your puppy.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

You've had the baby puppy for a few days and you have already decided that the work put into having 2 dogs is too much? Seriously? 

You didn't even give this a chance. It's a baby! Your older dog should NOT have to correct the puppy, you should. You need to step it up and do right by both of them. 

But it sounds like you realize this is actually going to take work and it's just easier to give up. Easier to rehome the puppy and blame it on the other dogs stress(without giving it any time or consistency) sorry. This is so frustrating to me as a rescuer. 

But as sad as it is, it's probably for the best that you do rehome the puppy. The puppy is young and will find a home fairly easily. Hopefully a hope with the time needed to raise him.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sorry to hear the new pup is not working out. To varying degrees, no matter what dog/puppy you bring into your home with an already existing one there will be some change in dynamics. Training, management, plus time/maturity can create an amicable existence between them much of the time, of course there will be some exceptions. It comes down to how much change you can live with taking into consideration what's best for all involved.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> You've had the baby puppy for a few days and you have already decided that the work put into having 2 dogs is too much? Seriously?
> 
> You didn't even give this a chance. It's a baby! Your older dog should NOT have to correct the puppy, you should. You need to step it up and do right by both of them.
> 
> ...


We need stickies on how to prepare to bring a puppy into a home and how to manage once the dog is in. I fostered and you learn to expect behavior problems between dogs and how to handle them. She was unprepared. People with easy first dogs expect the second dog to be the same. It's like having an easy first child. Parents should always have their most difficult child first.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Oh, we do. I'm sorry we didn't show her this before. I just found it

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...py-101-preparing-my-house-life-new-puppy.html


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> You've had the baby puppy for a few days and you have already decided that the work put into having 2 dogs is too much? Seriously?
> 
> You didn't even give this a chance. It's a baby! Your older dog should NOT have to correct the puppy, you should. You need to step it up and do right by both of them.
> 
> ...


You're mistaken about one thing. Its not the time that I lack, I have plenty of time. It's that I haven't considered the social structure change and how it would affect my older dog. I love my older dog more than anything, she and I went through 4 years 24/7 while I was disabled and I put everything into training her right. If it was not for the training she would be a lot more skittish. But that's just the way she is. If a puppy snaps at her and she refuses to come to me or drink water, what's it going to be like for her in a month when he's her size? 

I wanted to know if obedience training is a permanent fix for this and it doesn't sound like it is, it sounds like it will help but new social structure and the possibility of them never being alone together means the puppy and the older dog is not compatible. This sounds like a compatibility issue more than a training issue. He's already signed up for formal class which the older dog had gone through. Money and time is not the issue, it's what's best for my older dog. 

Sorry to say it but if my older dog is half as happy because he was introduced to the home, it's not going to work. The whole purpose was to find her a friend. 

I have decided to rehome him but while I am looking for a home I am having them separated with their own resources, crated him, continually training him and if anything changes, I will be thoroughly pleased. Trust me, I dont want to get rehome him, he's absolutely a dream with people and one of the cutest long hairs I've seen.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> What to Expect: Introducing a Puppy to Your Adult Dogs | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
> 
> Puppy behavior is a reflector of how they behave with littermates. Growling and making noises is a way of communicating. Your handling makes all the difference in future interactions. What did you do when the puppy growled?
> 
> I just saw you are rehoming the puppy. Since you have made up your mind, that is probably the best choice.


The puppy didn't growl, the puppy sits next to me and when my dog comes up, he snaps hard at her face and my older dog will get scared and cower away and sit away. She won't even come to me anymore. 

I have to reiterate that my older dog is a sweet heart but is not normal, she is skittish. If it was a normal dog, they would respond with a growl, bare their teeth or snap at the puppy if they ever felt the puppy was doing too much. My dog has never been able to defend herself ever. She has been attacked by 3 stray random small dogs before 1/4 of her size and did nothing. She has the heart of a baby. 

The article talks about the puppy getting hurt due to aggressive defensive behavior by older dogs who's had enough. My situation is the opposite. An older dog who is a sweetheart and will not defend herself and is slowly being outranked and bullied by a puppy. The key question is, is this 100% fixable to the point where they can be left alone together once the puppy goes through obedience training and is older? If not, it would be best to rehome


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK ... *"lecture time"* is over. It's certainly no one's intent to browbeat anyone into keeping a dog/puppy if they don't think it's a good fit?? "Pancake" your certainly not the first, first time "GSD" owner that has been taken by "surprise" and you won't be the last! 

Right now your new puppy is just "blowing away the expectations" in your head on how this was suppose to go. Happens all the time, the difference between those who can those who can't ... *"is the ability for the dog's owner to adapt and to work with the dog in front of them"* They have to get past ...This dog/puppy is most certainly not what I was "expecting" stage. It certainly happened to me! When it first happened "Pack" fights, I took the wrong approach! I got my first stitched ever in those dust ups (breaking up a dogfight, the wrong way) I Never solved that one. Gunther passed following the last battle due to unrelated circumstances.  

And following that the freaking people issues!!! The "Secret" to Success" for me was to stop fighting and start thinking ... "out think my dog." And I did that by "working with the dog in front of me." I knew a lot about "training a dog" but not so much about behaviour ... when I switched "Breeds." I changed "my" approach from do something to less is more and "thinking works best"... "KISS."

I solved my people issues and as I've said in the past "Rocky" never got a single correction for inappropriate behaviour towards people. I did that by "working with the dog in front me" and learning what I need to know, which it turns out ... I already did. But when your in the freak out zone ... you can't think clearly. 

So ... your puppy blew away your expectations of "everybody just getting along" ... right out the gate! 

Clearly ... more work "here" than anticipated?? But ... let's roll with it! Doggy number one does not like the new puppy?? Fine he doesn't have to like him but they do have to get along.

I'd suggest the "Kitty Cat" protocol! Cats don't like to hang around with dogs or puppies that are wild and out of control! Cats clearly understand when an owner has no control of a new pack member and as long as the "new creature" is acting like that ... they will have nothing to do with him!

If you settle for "peaceful coexistence "... your first dog "may" get to actually "like him" but right now .. he does not want to deal with this crap and he shouldn't have to that would be "your" job if you chose to accept it.  

"Train" the puppy in "Place" :










Every dog/puppy should know "The Place Command" anyway ... you just have a need for it out the gate. If you get the puppy to "dial it down" you may find your first dog way more accepting of him?? I don't know that for sure ... but "Place" would be the way to go to find out. Just a thought.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> OK ... *"lecture time"* is over. It's certainly no one's intent to browbeat anyone into keeping a dog/puppy if they don't think it's a good fit?? "Pancake" your certainly not the first, first time "GSD" owner that has been taken by "surprise" and you won't be the last!
> 
> Right now your new puppy is just "blowing away the expectations" in your head on how this was suppose to go. Happens all the time, the difference between those who can those who can't ... *"is the ability for the dog's owner to adapt and to work with the dog in front of them"* They have to get past ...This dog/puppy is most certainly not what I was "expecting" stage. It certainly happened to me! When it first happened "Pack" fights, I took the wrong approach! I got my first stitched ever in those dust ups (breaking up a dogfight, the wrong way) I Never solved that one. Gunther passed following the last battle due to unrelated circumstances.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that. I just wanted to know if there's light at the end of the tunnel or if the 2 dogs are forever doomed to be separate. but today I will be working on "down" as well as "place" wit him separate from the older dog. 


I feel though I need to give a better background on the older dog. 

The older dog, when she was little she was afraid of everything. but because she was skittish, she was velcroed to me. She would come when called every single time. She's so sensitive I don't yell at her or leash correct anymore, I did when we were training but if I change my tone she already knows. She is, aside from the skittish-ness, the best dog I have ever seen. She's so well behaved. Dogs come up and attack her and her reaction is not to bite, growl or anything she hates confrontation. She just moves away scared. And it really upset me that a puppy at 3 mo can do that to her. She doesn't have the ability to stand up for herself ever, so I am taking that into consideration in the long-term as he will get very very big (dad was over 110lbs) and she is 65. She will get older, weaker and he will get bigger and stronger. 

When she's lying down, the puppy lies down next to her. If they touch, she gets uncomfortable and gets up and moves. Whereas a relatively normal dog will let the puppy cuddle. This results in her giving way to the puppy in every situation possible. She won't even approach the water bowl if the puppy is nearby as she doesn't want confrontation. So while I can be involved, I'm not sure she will be able to manage when they're alone, ever. 

She doesn't bite, has 0 fight or aggression. We have a big yard, and if I leave the door open.. she doesn't go outside by herself. I have to physically go outside with her at night so she can potty. If she goes out by herself, she will bark at the garden hose lol. Or cats. 

I'm not rehoming him this instant as we have them separated so I'm working on training him still even if I don't keep him as it will benefit everyone involved. I may call a private trainer and pay to get a formal assessment. If the ruling is, they will never be able to be alone together, it will be sad news. If it just takes obedience work and the puppy maturing and being able to "grow out of it", then sign me up. I've done a lot more work raising the older dog.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

pancake said:


> Thanks for that. I just wanted to know if there's light at the end of the tunnel or if the 2 dogs are forever doomed to be separate. but today I will be working on "down" as well as "place" with him separate from the older dog.


Aww Ok then the fact of the matter is you don't have one dog with issues you have two! Well then ... as it happens "The Place" command is the bedrock for dogs with "issues!" Fear aggression or general foolish ... the exact same thing is applicable. 

And I'll also mention "Sit on the Dog" it's in my thread I posted but ...here you go.:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Next ... the other dogs thing ... "assuming your not doing the "I thought my other dogs was friendly thing??" Your dog thinks no one has her back?? That's a part of the problem if you put her in a postion to be harmed unknowing or not ..each times that happens her "suspicions" of others dogs ill intents is confirmed! Yep I was correct ... I should be afraid of other dogs!

You gotta up yor game and "incorporate a zero" unknown dog policy!
Rocky and I ...yet again, have encountered/repelled thus far " twelve in total and nine attempts" with him alone?? He seems to be a stray dog magnetic?? Oh well it's what we do. Anyway ... strays may try ...but they have to go thru me first!! Thus far none have succeeded! My dog goes behind me or stands beside me (he did that once to my surprise ... he was right on that call) and they let daddy deal with this! And my dogs have no issue mixing it up ...but that's not there job it's mine. 

So you need to change your approach there, thus far I've never had to make contact with a single stray ... they are looking for your dog not you. I don't carry any counter "anti dog" deterrents, but yeah I do stuff ...

But for a more sensible approach ... this is what other do.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html

Oh and so you know anti "Dog Park" guy that I am. MAWL pointed out to me that most attacks occur *"near home!" 

* I thought back over the years?? And yep sure enough absolutely, every stray dog encounter I have had ... was close to home! :surprise:

And the find a "Trainer" thing ... nothing wrong with that "assuming" you find the right type. 

And doing that ... is not necessarily that simple ... especially if you have a "fearful dog involved." 

I'll not go into the battle of the trainers thing. There is already info here to start that fire. 

I'll simply say that if you tend to favour my approach which is simple basics and free of "crap" in my view. 

Then have a look here ... two sources there can help you find a "Balanced Trainer" local to you. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7589889-post13.html


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

pancake said:


> The puppy didn't growl, the puppy sits next to me and when my dog comes up, he snaps hard at her face and my older dog will get scared and cower away and sit away. She won't even come to me anymore.
> 
> I have to reiterate that my older dog is a sweet heart but is not normal, she is skittish. If it was a normal dog, they would respond with a growl, bare their teeth or snap at the puppy if they ever felt the puppy was doing too much. My dog has never been able to defend herself ever. She has been attacked by 3 stray random small dogs before 1/4 of her size and did nothing. She has the heart of a baby.
> 
> The article talks about the puppy getting hurt due to aggressive defensive behavior by older dogs who's had enough. My situation is the opposite. An older dog who is a sweetheart and will not defend herself and is slowly being outranked and bullied by a puppy. The key question is, is this 100% fixable to the point where they can be left alone together once the puppy goes through obedience training and is older? If not, it would be best to rehome


I suggest two things. You said you have trained your older dog a lot but she isn't confident. A good behavior trainer will be able to evaluate and decide if your older one can learn confidence and will be able to tolerate the puppy as he gets older.

The puppy's behavior is normal, but he isn't being squashed by the older one which usually happens. Again, a behaviorist can tell you if that is something you can work on yourself without relying on the older dog to teach it. That is the first thing.

The second is the puppy should be crated for now, and possibly up to a year or longer when you aren't home.

I would recommend getting a behavior evaluation of both dogs individually and as a team. Then you will have a better idea of whether or not it will work out. If you decide to rehome and still want a second dog, you might be better off with an older dog that is already trained and which you know in advance is confident and calm. Test the new dog with your female before even bringing the second dog home. Or get a mellower, softer breed.


----------



## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Pancake have you spoken to your breeder about this? If you purchased your pup from a reputable breeder then they will want to help you even if it means taking the puppy back. An experienced breeder will also have a lot of good advise and be able to help out a lot with integrating a new puppy. They should also know the pup and their lines very well and be able to advise you on how to proceed. In your situation I would be on the phone with them ASAP letting them know what is going on and that you are seriously considering re-homing the puppy. The puppy contract I signed states that his breeder gets first refusal should I decide to transfer ownership of him.


----------



## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I was in a similar situation as you when I first got my puppy and had an older female GSD that sounds a lot like yours, she was very skittish, shy, didn't like touching, lacked confidence, and avoided confrontation at all costs, most gentle dog in the world. From the beginning I never allowed the puppy to bother my older dog, the puppy was never allowed alone with my senior and when they were together all of my focus was on the older dog being comfortable. When I was not able to give 100% of my attention to the dogs interaction the puppy would be in her crate and the senior would get free roam of the house as usual. Also made sure to do plenty of things with the senior without the puppy so she did not feel like the puppy was replacing her. It is a good amount of work and if you have any doubts the best thing to do would be rehome the puppy while he's still young. The longer you wait the harder it will be for him to find a good home.


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Really ... your dog doesn't need a friend as long as she has you. If that was the main reason you got a puppy, then I would return it before you get too attached. If, however, you want it for yourself, then it may take a lot of work to get where you want. Your puppy is just being a puppy and he's just playing how he played with his siblings. Teach him what you want instead of reacting to what he does.


----------



## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I do think bringing a puppy into an established pack will change the dynamics and that can be shocking and a bit uncomfortable. Been there. 

It is true that your older dog doesn't need a friend. So that is not a good reason for a puppy.

That being said, I had a nightmarish crazy puppy that I brought home to two older dogs. The puppy was crate trained and we had an ex-pen in the living room when we all needed a break from him. 

BUT, while the puppy and I went through all kinds of growing pains and challenges together, I drew a very very very firm line that he was not to disturb the older dogs. By that, I was not abusive but I let him know that he could not cross that line and that could be firm physical removal from the situation or shut down of play or shut down of anything the puppy wanted. And sometimes I was roughly in his face and the puppy knew I meant business. In my mind that was a firm line and the puppy learned it very quickly. I did not have problems with that issue after a week or two.

Think about it. It does get better but a confident dog will be an opportunist. They just are.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Thanks all. I have to think long and hard about this, I go back and forth. It does get easier the more he is with us but it's not easy. I forgot how hard puppies are and I never had such a curious, hardheaded and strong male before. Quite the contrast to my older.

I decided it would be a good idea to go someplace together and so we put them in the car and took them to an empty field. Family member took the pup to the other side and played wit him. I just played fetch with the older one. Then reunited and let them off leash. 

Just simply out of curiousity, does anyone else have a gsd with a personality ike this? The puppy doesnt really have a lot of prety drive, he chases the ball somewhat but not really. he's not hyper or doesn't run in circles or anything. He doesnt chew things, he's so calm and mellow. He just likes to explore and doesn't come back (need to train recall) and just likes to be curious. The only time he wants something is when the older dog has the ball and he will try to get it from her, he's possessive and object guards in that sense. His eyes light up when he sees she has something. He's the human equiv of a macho man that doesnt want to do anything but wants to be able to own the room. He also likes wrestling. 

His energy level when calm is fine, but he gets a tad scary even as a puppy when he wants something or means business, he's freakishly strong. No joke he will be 120lbs+. Possessive is not a good trait for him and need to train, I hope its rectifiable. Some dogs can however, never be trusted alone and that may be a problem for my older pup. I just dont know yet.


----------



## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

pancake said:


> Thanks all. I have to think long and hard about this, I go back and forth. It does get easier the more he is with us but it's not easy. I forgot how hard puppies are and I never had such a curious, hardheaded and strong male before. Quite the contrast to my older.
> 
> I decided it would be a good idea to go someplace together and so we put them in the car and took them to an empty field. Family member took the pup to the other side and played wit him. I just played fetch with the older one. Then reunited and let them off leash.
> 
> ...


I have a 7 month old GSD and an 8 (almost 9) year old Sheltie. My Sheltie has never been the type of dog that likes to wrestle or rough house with other dogs, although I wouldn't say he is timid or shy. The GSD used to try to rough house with him all the time when she was younger. I very firmly put a stop to it every time she did it (I never expected him to stop it or "stand up for himself", I always intervened). They are never unsupervised together. I would also give her a toy when she was trying to play with him. He will happily play tug with her. Now, at 7 months old she very rarely tries to rough house with him and usually approaches him with a toy to play.

She is a bit of a bully but I think it has to do with being a confident female, it is in her nature. :wink2: She will try to push him out of the way when it comes to drinking water, our attention etc. I pick and choose my battles. For example, I have two water bowls for them now. I'm also careful not anthropomorphize our sheltie. I don't think he is unhappy or that he feels things are "unfair". He would have been happy as an only dog but as the result of us having her I do think his life has been enriched. She forces us to get out for walks and play time much more than did before.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

pancake said:


> Thanks all. I have to think long and hard about this, I go back and forth. It does get easier the more he is with us but it's not easy. I forgot how hard puppies are and I never had such a curious, hardheaded and strong male before. Quite the contrast to my older.
> 
> I decided it would be a good idea to go someplace together and so we put them in the car and took them to an empty field. Family member took the pup to the other side and played wit him. I just played fetch with the older one. Then reunited and let them off leash.
> 
> ...


You can work with him on Leave it or giving up a toy when you ask for it. He doesn't sound like a difficult puppy when you stop comparing him to your female. When I match what you said about him with my puppy at that age, mine was much grabber and pushier. He would get alongside my female and push her across the room. He always takes toys away from her. She takes them back, though.

I'm not sure my female liked the puppy at first. She was curious and she played with him, but I have pictures of her sitting next to him, leaning as far away from him as possible. It took months for her to tolerate him most of the time. 

Males need a firm hand. Use your training expertise from your other dog with the puppy. Be firm. If you want him to do something, be persistent and don't let up until you get the behavior you want. When you stop an exercise or working on something, end on a positive. A trainer told me a big mistake people make is to say, My dog isn't responding he must be tired. I will quit now and work on it later. Then the dog learns if they resist long enough, you will give up. Start with simple tasks, but work on focus and on tasks. Make him complete the tasks, reward and then stop. 

When my puppy was young, I separated them a lot.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> He always takes toys away from her. She takes them back, though.


:laugh2:


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> :laugh2:


It's funny, I took a picture of them fighting over a toy. The next picture, he had it. The one after that, she not only had the toy, she had chased him across the room. The final picture is the puppy settling for a different toy.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> It's funny, I took a picture of them fighting over a toy. The next picture, he had it. The one after that, she not only had the toy, she had chased him across the room. The final picture is the puppy settling for a different toy.


I had to laugh because my oldest female is all girl with these big, brown expressive eyes and I could just imagine her face if a puppy stole her stuff and her going to steal it back. I could almost hear her say: "Well, I never!" as she was retrieving the stolen goods.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I had to laugh because my oldest female is all girl with these big, brown expressive eyes and I could just imagine her face if a puppy stole her stuff and her going to steal it back. I could almost hear her say: "Well, I never!" as she was retrieving the stolen goods.


That sounds like mine. When we got her, the trainer said she is awfully timid. I told him, that is an act. At home, she is THE boss.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

How big do you think he will get? Based on the picture of his dad? I have no way to tell


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It's hard to say how big he will get. Sometimes a large puppy will reach full size sooner than a smaller one. My puppy has always been small for his age and I thought he was going to be tiny, but he's still growing. He's beautiful.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

pancake said:


> Thanks all. I have to think long and hard about this, I go back and forth. It does get easier the more he is with us but it's not easy. I forgot how hard puppies are and I never had such a curious, hardheaded and strong male before. Quite the contrast to my older.
> 
> I decided it would be a good idea to go someplace together and so we put them in the car and took them to an empty field. Family member took the pup to the other side and played wit him. I just played fetch with the older one. Then reunited and let them off leash.
> 
> ...



My younger male was somewhat like yours up until about 6-7 months. He slept a lot. The first time he seemed to guard me I did not think anything of it. That got worse before it got better, but we worked on it and we still are. That is my only issue with him and I'm determined to make it right. I used to have toys in the house, pretty much no more of that. Outside is controlled play with toys and I correct him or any of them when they try grabbing a ball from each other, but Apollo is super fast. He keeps me on my toes. His ball drive kicked in at about 7 months and so did the prey drive. My female is not like your female and she let Apollo get away with a lot. She corrected him once when he was a pup, which was a growl and dnsp but no contact. They are actually really close now and are always together. He doesn't push it with her and they play well together. She is a very vocal dog and doesn't hold anything back.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> It's funny, I took a picture of them fighting over a toy. The next picture, he had it. The one after that, she not only had the toy, she had chased him across the room. The final picture is the puppy settling for a different toy.


This is so Robyn and Apollo. Robyn is an opportunist. I've watched her wait for one of the boys to drop a ball and she swoops in and grabs it. They don't stand a chance getting it back, but boy do they look baffled and sad. It happens all the time and they always fall for it. If they are playing tug, she'd gets the tug in position where most of the tug is on her side and she has more leverage. They never win with her.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

llombardo said:


> This is so Robyn and Apollo. Robyn is an opportunist. I've watched her wait for one of the boys to drop a ball and she swoops in and grabs it. They don't stand a chance getting it back, but boy do they look baffled and sad. It happens all the time and they always fall for it. If they are playing tug, she'd gets the tug in position where most of the tug is on her side and she has more leverage. They never win with her.


I love your pictures! Especially their expressions. It reminds me of mine except they aren't so patient. The puppy is now bigger than my female and he just grabs and runs. But she quietly walks back, growls just enough to distract him, then grabs it back.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Things are better. Taking into consideration that my first assessment was he was fully untrained, new to the house and the family, he's better now. They are separated and he is crated but they see and hang out throughout the day so the presence is allowing them to get used to each other. I nip any growling even slight and in play, in the bud if any object or resource is involved. If they both want it too much I take it away, usually the ball. he does like to guard his spot under the shade but he no longer tries to block her from sitting next to me and approaching other people. He needs obedience training for leave it so I havent fed them together yet but one step at a time. My older has a bit more confidence and she is trusting me now because ive been standing up for her when he gets in her face. And they will wrestle and he will chase her and whine like a baby cause he cant catch her haha


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

pancake said:


> Things are better. Taking into consideration that my first assessment was he was fully untrained, new to the house and the family, he's better now. They are separated and he is crated but they see and hang out throughout the day so the presence is allowing them to get used to each other. I nip any growling even slight and in play, in the bud if any object or resource is involved. If they both want it too much I take it away, usually the ball. he does like to guard his spot under the shade *but he no longer tries to block her from sitting next to me and approaching other people. *He needs obedience training for leave it so I havent fed them together yet but one step at a time. My older has a bit more confidence and she is trusting me now because ive been standing up for her when he gets in her face. And they will wrestle and he will chase her and whine like a baby cause he cant catch her haha


Gonna say ... that is "huge!" It's stopping stuff like that pays off big time! OMG ... just read the rest ... like a cat! 

And "the presence is allowing them to get used to each other" bit ... that is how "Place" works right now your just using a physical barrier to enforce it! Right now your just using a physical barrier to enforce it. Train both in "Place" and yo can do the same deal with a barrier there is a clip on "Training Puppies" in my "Place Command" thread. ANd I have seen evidence that suggest to me, that if you use the names ... you can address the "recall" thing at the same time. Two for one as it were. 


Great work.


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Here's where we're at. They can coexist and play together. When they wrestle, he's fiesty but she wins because she's bigger. This is all outside. 
When we're indoors, its a smaller space and so space is at premium. She will move away and and sit in the corner or look scared when I call her and walk around the puppy. When there's a ball, he will rush over and snap at her and take it. 

One on one they are great and he is obedient and he doesn't challenge when I say no too much. but you can tell he always wants to win or wants to have things. and the older one will give it to him. i have to push him away and coax her over so she can drink some water. 

I dont like this but this is a case of an overconfident puppy who wants to own things and an over skittish older dog who doesnt want confrontation. 

What I would like is to just have two dogs that can share things. Mostly him not being so possessive (he puts his paws around the water bowl and dunks his entire face in it or isn't shy about taking up space) and her being not bold enough to stand up for herself. 

I am hoping that as they spend more time together and he matures, he will get less possessive (through repetitive corrections for such behaviors) and she will get more confident. or maybe he will share because he has bonded with her. so far they get along well and like to play but i wouldn't consider them bonded. he's too much of a punk and she's too much of a baby for them to bond. 

What do you guys think? Will it get better?


One other issue.. right now i put away all balls when they're both out. I dont want him snapping. but they both love the ball. so it's either 0 balls, or lots of balls. the reasoning is that they won't fight as much if there are say, 10 balls and plenty of them to play with versus just 1 or 2. 

When my older was younger, her first experience with a playmate was that she was very shy like that. would give way and avoid. eventually they would play tug and then she would play keep away. and he would chase her. this is similar, if she gets the ball she does this keep away thing and he will chase and they'll play. but, i'm afraid the teasing might egg him on. so i really dont know where to draw the line on that one. 

I could just put out a million balls and let them just play and tease and the minute there's a growl or a snap do a very serious NO and correction and separation but idk. dont want to shatter her confidence too much. 

might call a trainer for an in-home private on this but i'm mostly worried they'll never be able to be together without supervision.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I think you have good reasons for it but you are worrying too much about what might happen. You have much more control over their behavior than you think. I never feed mine together. I still feed my puppy every meal in a crate. I feed my other dog in a bowl on the floor in the kitchen. They would eat each other's food if I didn't separate, so why create a problem? They have to share water. They get one bowl and it's too bad if they can't figure it out. They finally did.

If mine are fighting over a toy, I give them each a toy they want in separate areas. I have a child's play yard I borrowed from a friend and I open it in the room to divide the room into two separate areas. I also borrowed an Xpen but he can tip it, so I use that as a divider too. I only take a toy away as a last resort because I don't want to create extra tension. But if that works, then do it.

It can take a year until they can be left alone together at all. Don't expect too much too soon. I may never feed mine together side by side.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

pancake said:


> Here's where we're at. They can coexist and play together. When they wrestle, he's fiesty but she wins because she's bigger. This is all outside. .


First you made an observation! Dogs/puppies can behave differently indoors than they do outdoors! In my particular case "big dogs" not puppies but all my "issues" were indoors! Most likely my problems started as soon as Rocky came in the door at seven months but they were "nothing" I "observed" that I am aware of??

And I don't want to jump on my particular high horse. 
I'm not JQP, so I don't know (exactly) what they think??? But "my" base assumption is that JQP seems to think that if they ..."go get a trainer "all there" problems will be solved!?? That's not how it works unless you do a "Board and Train" a "Trainer" simply gives you the "tools" to train your dog. You still have to do the "work" yourself. 

That said ... as I see this particular situation, your doing the "my other dog was like ..." thing. And that tends to lead to the "inability" to work with the "dog/puppy" in front of you. So let that go ... "this" is not "that" dog/puppy.

You're seeing issues and your rolling with them the toys (inside) thing good observation but your trying to force that to work and what is happening is not the way you had imagined it would go?? So maybe this fewer balls or this toy or that toy?? That could work ... but it's not the way I'd go. No toys together then. If the puppy wants to play with toys ... in the X-Pen (which you should have) you go. Problem solved.

The other problem is that ... your at the "this is simply not the way I thought things would go stage???" Well yeah sometimes that happens, the "Real World" as it were. You're not alone in it.  

And I may be off base here?? But I think you want "someone here" to give you a "guarantee" that your dogs will indeed become the bestest of buddies and preferably by uh "Monday???" I would seriously doubt that anyone here is going to tell you that??? To make this work out it's going to take work ..."no guarantees" but there are basics principles to follow. I'm good with those myself.

I think you can make this work ... but "clearly it's going to be more of a workload, commitment and challenge than you anticipated?? Again that is not a crime and yet again ... I've been there as well as have many others! Some arrived at that point in particularly spectacular fashion! Kinda like ... well then I was not expecting this!  

We all took different paths to solve our individual issues but the one thing we "all" have in common is "commitment" to our dogs/puppies. Those are just my observation of those that "get it done if you will. 


So story time from "Boxer Land" maybe it will help?? We had a member on "BoxerForum" and she had just lost her "White Boxer" she was grieving badly and to help maybe get her over it ...her boyfriend went out and got her another "White Boxer" puppy!!!

That ... did now go over well! Every time she looked at the puppy it reminded her of her loss. And made her heartache even more. So she came to us. She could not decide if she should keep the puppy or help it find a new home?? 

I've not been in those exact same circumstances ... but I did understand "commitment." My circumstances were different but I still remember ... I really "resented" what Rocky did to Gunther (the fights) and Gunther passed (due to unrelated issues following the last fight) so yeah "Rocky" was top dog by default!! I was not happy!! To have any hope of getting past that ... "I had to let my resentment go." I guess it was 7 years ago and I still remember doing that!  

So ...strip away the different "circumstances" and at it's core was "commitment!" So as I saw it same deal. She was "stuck in "grief" and couldn't think. It was a constant, keep the puppy, rehome the puppy, keep the puppy, rehome the puppy?? That can go on for months if not years???

I felt she should keep the puppy, it looked like my long past Struddell, so yeah special case for me. But you know not my call "so I suggested" she start a clock, set a deadline say two weeks?? And then make a decision to commit to "this" puppy or let it find a home with an owner that will be happy with who he is. 

And she did just that ... I would imagine (that took a lot of the day to day stuff) off the table?? And then the post changed from sad because he was just her first dog, to well he's just like my other dog in this way, but now that's not a bad thing. And we started hearing daily adventures! Well needless to say ... two weeks came and ... the puppy was staying!

Your circumstances are of course different, and "apparently" your going to need to understand more about raising "this" puppy in "your household" with "your dog," than you anticipated?? 

My point with that is ... I think that's where your at?? None of "this" (your current situation) is what you expected it to be??? 

Is it the right "puppy" for you?? Well I'll bow out on that one because, I don't recommend "GSD's" to anyone. But I do my bit when they have one.  

So you "need" to decide if "this" puppy is the one for you?? I think a big part of your "problem" is lack of "commitment" to this "particular" puppy??? If rehoming him is still on the table?? I don't think this is going to work out?? I can't say but I will say you need to "set a clock" and make a "firm commitment" to cope and keep or pass him on. I'm just not sure you've done that yet??


----------



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> First you made an observation! Dogs/puppies can behave differently indoors than they do outdoors! In my particular case "big dogs" not puppies but all my "issues" were indoors! Most likely my problems started as soon as Rocky came in the door at seven months but they were "nothing" I "observed" that I am aware of??
> 
> And I don't want to jump on my particular high horse.
> I'm not JQP, so I don't know (exactly) what they think??? But "my" base assumption is that JQP seems to think that if they ..."go get a trainer "all there" problems will be solved!?? That's not how it works unless you do a "Board and Train" a "Trainer" simply gives you the "tools" to train your dog. You still have to do the "work" yourself.
> ...


Thanks just what I needed to hear


----------

