# Gentle Leader for a reactive dog?



## Runswithdogs

Regen walks well on the leash (loose leash) most of the time, the exception being when we see another dog. Her dog reactivity (on and off leash) is another issue altogether, but I am wondering if the Gentle Leader is a good choice for a dog-reactive dog. 
We use the Sense-ation harness right now and while it keeps her from pulling me over, it doesn't do anything to mitigate her crazy barking and lunging for the other dog.

We've completely stopped walking her on-leash during the day when there is a possibility of running into other dogs because it is so frustrating and embarrassing to deal with the reactions of other dog owners (not to mention, the whole experience only ramps up anxiety/stress, does nothing to calm her). We do on-leash runs a couple times a week in the dark, and we can usually get by with only 1-2 dog encounters. The rest of the time, we drive 20 minutes to do off-leash hikes in the dark after work.

We would REALLY like to be able to walk/run with her in the neighborhood when necessary without having to wait until dark or pre-dawn. 

I'm wondering if other people with reactive dogs have used the GL with any success. I know that the other part is counterconditioning, and we are working through Control Unleashed and have been working on the strategies, but the limited daylight and work stress set us back. 

Ideas?


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## DCluver33

we used the GL on my friends DA lab and it didn't work very well she still pulled and was still reactive, we had more success with the prong collar. I'd try it and see if it makes a difference. with the GL we had problems with it coming off which is why we walk her with two leashes, one on the GL and another attached to her prong and choke chain only to be used if the GL came off.


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## Rerun

I would strongly recommend that if you use a GL, you use a secondary backup incase the GL comes off. I've seen what appeared to otherwise be properly fitted GL's come off (never had it happen personally, when I worked with a service dog agency that used GL's) if the dog pulled just right. Many dogs will pull right through a GL. They just turn their head and neck and throw their body into it. The whole theory of them being like a horse halter is crap in that they say a horses head goes where it's body goes. No, it doesn't not (coming from a longtime horse owner). A horse goes where it's handler goes when trained properly. A horse can and will yank a lead right out of ones hand if they want to and take off whereever they please. Turning their head won't do squat for them nor for a dog.

I wouldn't use one for a reactive dog personally. I'd use a prong.


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## doggiedad

go out and train,train, train and socialize,
socialize, socialize. don't depend on a devise.


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## onyx'girl

The GL puts pressure on the ears which is supposed to calm the dog. I used one on Onyx when she was going thru her reactive stage, and it was not strong enough for her 90# of muscle. I think that plastic clasp should be much larger and stronger if they are marketing it for reactive dogs.
I agree with Rerun, back it up with another collar.
I only used mine a handful of times...we ended up going to a class based on the book Control Unleashed and that helped along with her maturing.

Prong collars can ramp up a reactive dog, so I wouldn't use one for Onyx. It made her all the more aggressive and excited.


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## Rerun

Sorry yes, should have been clear, don't just depend on the device for training purposes. Strictly for control purposes, if that is an issue right now.


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## doggiedad

with training you'll gain control.



Rerun said:


> Sorry yes, should have been clear, don't just depend on the device for training purposes. Strictly for control purposes, if that is an issue right now.


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## FG167

I use a Halti actually. Recommended by my behaviorist for Madix's reactivity. I live in an apartment and there are some people he reacts to, this gives me control over his head and mouth. He's VERY responsive to it. He doesn't pull on it (he doesn't pull on anything and he heels off-lead very well, with or without people/dogs but he can't be off-lead at my apartment) and I've had a lot of positive experiences using it. Also, the book Click to Calm is AMAZING - I am using that and Control Unleashed to start working on his reactivity (again, we've already gone through this once around 4 months) on my own combined with working with my behaviorist.

To the person with the friend with the DA Lab - I have a leash-reactive Lab and he does not respond to the Halti AT ALL. He pulls worse on it. I use a prong on him, he doesn't have any kind of work drive so it definitely does not amp him up. The prong on Madix though was starting to get him more worked up, which is why I switched back to the Halti. Overall Madix is MUCH more sensitive to corrections than my Lab - perhaps that is common...


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## paulag1955

The prong collar settles Shasta down. I guess you need to try and and see if it works. We use a backup collar with the prong, too.


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## FG167

oh! Wanted to add that the Halti has a strap that goes from the head halter to the collar, so it has slipped off his noggin' twice and both times it was hooked to his flat collar so he didn't go anywhere


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## Whiteshepherds

doggiedad said:


> go out and train,train, train and socialize,
> socialize, socialize. don't depend on a devise.


Reactive dogs don't always respond well to socialize, socialize, socialize, in fact sometimes, it can make the dogs worse. That doesn't mean you don't try to socialize them, but you do have to approach it differently.


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## Lora

Brewski pulls and goes rangy when he sees another dog/cat or squirrel when out for our walks. The Vet suggested the Gentle Leader, what a mess that was. Brewski would lower his head and scrape his nose on the cement trying or with his paws to get it off, causing his nose to bleed quite a bit. After talking on here the Prong/Pinch Collar was suggested, it was like walking a different GSD within the first 10 minutes of our walk. Pulling came to a halt and so did the rangy behavior when other animals were in sight. Get yourself a proper fitted Prong/Pinch Collar, you will be amazed at the difference.....


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## Runswithdogs

Whiteshepherds said:


> Reactive dogs don't always respond well to socialize, socialize, socialize, in fact sometimes, it can make the dogs worse. That doesn't mean you don't try to socialize them, but you do have to approach it differently.


Thank you for saying that...socializing a dog that is reactive in the typical way (exposing them to lots of new situations, dogs, people constantly) just ramps up their level of stress and will aggravate the issue.

Our behaviorist strongly suggested avoiding anything other than highly controlled situations where we could control the distance between us and the other dog and the time exposed...we do training around the perimeter of the dog park (outside the fence), but going in would be a disaster.

Again, we aren't hoping to use the collar as a substitute for training, just something that can help us manage situations where we do need to be out in daylight etc.

Regen does okay in class situations for some reason, and unless another dog is aggressing, she'll focus on me and be really obedient. 

I might just buy the GL and the Halti and see which one she responds to better. It's really helpful to hear about Madix & Onyx's reaction to these type of collars.

I really wish there was a CU type class available here.


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## onyx'girl

Lora said:


> Brewski pulls and goes rangy when he sees another dog/cat or squirrel when out for our walks. The Vet suggested the Gentle Leader, what a mess that was. Brewski would lower his head and scrape his nose on the cement trying or with his paws to get it off, causing his nose to bleed quite a bit. After talking on here the Prong/Pinch Collar was suggested, it was like walking a different GSD within the first 10 minutes of our walk. Pulling came to a halt and so did the rangy behavior when other animals were in sight. Get yourself a proper fitted Prong/Pinch Collar, you will be amazed at the difference.....



When you start using the GL you have to do it slowly and desensitize the dog to it. Leaving it on until blood appears is not recommended! About 3 minutes with it on, no leash, then a few minutes attached to the leash for the next session and build from there. My GL came with a DVD, not sure if it still does.


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## elisabeth_00117

FG167 said:


> I use a Halti actually. Recommended by my behaviorist for Madix's reactivity. I live in an apartment and there are some people he reacts to, this gives me control over his head and mouth. He's VERY responsive to it. He doesn't pull on it (he doesn't pull on anything and he heels off-lead very well, with or without people/dogs but he can't be off-lead at my apartment) and I've had a lot of positive experiences using it. Also, the book Click to Calm is AMAZING - I am using that and Control Unleashed to start working on his reactivity (again, we've already gone through this once around 4 months) on my own combined with working with my behaviorist.
> 
> To the person with the friend with the DA Lab - I have a leash-reactive Lab and he does not respond to the Halti AT ALL. He pulls worse on it. I use a prong on him, he doesn't have any kind of work drive so it definitely does not amp him up. The prong on Madix though was starting to get him more worked up, which is why I switched back to the Halti. Overall Madix is MUCH more sensitive to corrections than my Lab - perhaps that is common...


I used the halti for quite some time with Stark - and it did work (I believe it was Samba who recommeneded me try it). I liked having that control over his head and made me feel a little more confident.

Now that I know how he will react (just bark) I switched to the gentle leader harness and find that by not using the prong (which I did for a while too after the halti) he is much more happier and calmer when around people.

Actually just today he was doing obedience in the mall parking lot when a child and mother stopped like 2 feet from us and watched us go through our routine and although he was tense in the beginning I noticed his shoulders slump and he did not react at all - he usually ALWAYS reacts to children too! I was amazed and proud of him more than anyone could imagine. Two people staring at him, a child no less - that was big.

I think trying the head halti is a good idea, but like Jane said - you must work on it slowly. Use it in the house with TONES of treats and praise. Then outside NOT hooked up, then hook it up and use it in SHORT stints.

He has to feel like it is his "safety", not something that is restricting him. Stark knows when that is on, that it means - I am in control and NOTHING will harm him. When the halti is on, I DO NOT allow anyone to approach him dogs or people - I DO ALLOW HIM to approach people though and always ensure that they have something to give him, either a treat or a ball. Usually I will tell them to ignore him and not to look at him either. The halti needs to be something that ensures he feels safe and confident about, not something to fear.


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## FG167

elisabeth_00117 said:


> He has to feel like it is his "safety", not something that is restricting him. Stark knows when that is on, that it means - I am in control and NOTHING will harm him. When the halti is on, I DO NOT allow anyone to approach him dogs or people - I DO ALLOW HIM to approach people though and always ensure that they have something to give him, either a treat or a ball. Usually I will tell them to ignore him and not to look at him either. The halti needs to be something that ensures he feels safe and confident about, not something to fear.


THIS is SO SO SO important. I made the Halti "fun" by always doing fun things with it on. I pick it up now and he comes racing over, sits nicely and if he's super excited, he'll jam his own face in there lol. I started by clicker training the wearing of it. Then I just always go somewhere he wants to go - a car ride, outside for fun, to the park, to the river etc etc. Halti = fun places. PLUS, my stress is less when I KNOW I can control his mouth (he DOES nip so I feel better when I know I can close his mouth or pull it to me if need be) and therefore his stress level is less. I also do all of the things mentioned above.


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## goatdude

Runswithdogs said:


> Thank you for saying that...socializing a dog that is reactive in the typical way (exposing them to lots of new situations, dogs, people constantly) just ramps up their level of stress and will aggravate the issue.
> 
> Our behaviorist strongly suggested avoiding anything other than highly controlled situations where we could control the distance between us and the other dog and the time exposed...we do training around the perimeter of the dog park (outside the fence), but going in would be a disaster.
> 
> Again, we aren't hoping to use the collar as a substitute for training, just something that can help us manage situations where we do need to be out in daylight etc.
> 
> Regen does okay in class situations for some reason, and unless another dog is aggressing, she'll focus on me and be really obedient.
> 
> I might just buy the GL and the Halti and see which one she responds to better. It's really helpful to hear about Madix & Onyx's reaction to these type of collars.
> 
> I really wish there was a CU type class available here.


That's it in a nutshell. Regen sounds exactly like my dog in that she does fine in a structured environment but regresses in her normal everyday life. It's like she finds comfort and feels safe while training but outside of class where things are random and uncontrolled, fear sets in. As to devices there is no "one best" collar, leash, harness or training method - you are going to have to find what works with your dog and then train, train, train. Getting your dog to overcome fear is tough.


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## valreegrl

I would recommend the Halti. It seems to fit better than the GL and as already stated, it has a pseudo safety leash from the Halti to the regular collar in case it does slip off. Never had a properly fitted Halti slip though, just needs to be checked often as they do loosen over time.

As for starting out, we use a progression: 

Start by putting a yummy treat outside the nose fitting so the dog has to slip his nose through the hold to get the treat. Once comfortable, clip the Halti and only put on when feeding. Next progress to dragging a leash, then pick up the leash and walk around the house/yard. Then in relaxing outside situations the onto everyday life.

The Halti allows for much better head control, especially in reactive dogs. 

Although lots of people recommend and swear by prongs, I would not recommend one for a reactive dog. I actually watched many people who use prongs on reactive dogs TRAIN OUT the warning. They correct when the dog growls/barks or begins to pull towards other dogs. What the dog essentially learned is that the growl/bark/pulling is bad, so instead the dog will give no warning when passing by another dog it will just attack. In essence the dog never learned to accept other dogs in it's presence, just that the noise was bad. 
(In our reactive dog classes there are lots of "cross-over" dogs going from prongs to Halti's for this reason. And most actually start off by hooking the Halti to the prong with the safety latch so the dog begins to learn that a correction will not follow a behavior.)

Along with the Halti we like to use the "look" command. Start off at a distance, where a dog is in sight but your dog is not reacting (the threshold). Whenever your dog looks at the other dog click and treat. Then move forward. In the end you should be able to walk by and simply say "look" and your dog will immediately redirect back to you looking for the treat. It will take time and patience but in the end you will be successful.


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## DCluver33

onyx'girl said:


> When you start using the GL you have to do it slowly and desensitize the dog to it. Leaving it on until blood appears is not recommended! About 3 minutes with it on, no leash, then a few minutes attached to the leash for the next session and build from there. My GL came with a DVD, not sure if it still does.


i'm pretty sure it still does I haven't gotten one recently though so don't quote me on that one


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## Runswithdogs

Just picked up a Halti to try first (the safety strap is appealing)...tonight all we did with it was play games getting treats by putting the nose into the muzzle part. Tomorrow we'll try snapping it on and giving treats or feeding, depending on how she does. 
I'll update this thread when we start using it outside the house...it is SO helpful to hear about other people who have used them!


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## Lora

onyx'girl said:


> When you start using the GL you have to do it slowly and desensitize the dog to it. Leaving it on until blood appears is not recommended! About 3 minutes with it on, no leash, then a few minutes attached to the leash for the next session and build from there. My GL came with a DVD, not sure if it still does.


Yes mine came with a DVD also, the Vet also walked with him using the Gentle Leader how ever Brewski constantly would pull is head to the ground and scarpe his nose. The harder we pulled to keep his head up the harder he pulled to get it to the cement. My Vet told us not all harness,halti's and collars work for all dogs and that we needed to try a different one. I spoke to some on here and read a lot of info on the prong/pinch collar and went with it, wow is all I can say. Walks are enjoyable.


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## Caledon

According to the trainer I go to you should remove the safety strap on the Halti, or use a longer one.

The advantage of the halti over the gental leader is that the halti can be used as a muzzle. Pull up on the leash and the dogs mouth closes. If you have the saftey strap attached then you may not be able to pull up on the leash to the exent you need depending on how the collar twisted.


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## valreegrl

Caledon said:


> According to the trainer I go to you should remove the safety strap on the Halti, or use a longer one.
> 
> The advantage of the halti over the gental leader is that the halti can be used as a muzzle. Pull up on the leash and the dogs mouth closes. If you have the saftey strap attached then you may not be able to pull up on the leash to the exent you need depending on how the collar twisted.


Did the trainer give a reason as to why? Just interested as I have never heard that before. 
I like the Halti because it DOES have the strap. Unfortunately, not all people check their Halti every day for proper fit and without a safety strap their isn't a backup if it slips off. 

And no way does a Halti double as a muzzle.


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## onyx'girl

I wouldn't want the muzzle to be closed, the dog will have a hard time breathing and cannot pant. If you keep the muzzled physically closed for an extended period, the dog will overheat, especially if the dog is acting anxious or ramped up mentally.
If a dog needs to be muzzled then a wire basket would be best, even the nylon ones are made to be used only for short periods of time.


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## FG167

The way I took that post was if you were going by something the dog might want to snap at, you could close the muzzle and then release once past. Not that you would use it to hold the mouth closed the whole time. I do this as well - for nipping and for shrieking. I just gently and slowly lift up the leash until his mouth closes, he shuts up and calms down and we continue on - I drop my hand immediately after he gives the proper response.


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## Caledon

FG167 said:


> The way I took that post was if you were going by something the dog might want to snap at, you could close the muzzle and then release once past. Not that you would use it to hold the mouth closed the whole time. I do this as well - for nipping and for shrieking. I just gently and slowly lift up the leash until his mouth closes, he shuts up and calms down and we continue on - I drop my hand immediately after he gives the proper response.


Yes that is a better description. If a dog approaches you you can pull up on the leash and your dogs mouth will close. That way you know you dog is not going to nip a smaller dog, because their mouth is closed. 

She said to remove the saftety strap because you could not pull up on the leash enough to use it as a muzzle. I guess the strap attached to the collar of the dog could result in not being able to do the upward motion. I never tested it and prefered the added safety of the strap. I think it would work if you had a longer strap. This advice was for certain reactive dogs.

She also showed me how to work with a double leash. Attach one end to the gentle leader and the other clipped to the dogs collar. You can then "steer" the dog and have greater control. I was a total spaz at this and had to be showed a few times. Once I got it was was very easy to do. Don't think I could repeat it without a refresher


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## onyx'girl

my post was for the ones who may be reading this and think they can use the strap for a muzzle...you never know who reads what, and what they take from the internet advice....thanks for clearing it up Falon! 
I like the two line/collar method, I do it when I have a prong and a flat collar. When needed, the prong on a tab is used.


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## valreegrl

Hey OP, how is the Halti working?


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## Runswithdogs

She hasn't worn it on a walk yet, but she is happily wearing it to eat meals and play in the back yard. Going to try it on a walk this week. She still wants to paw it off if she isn't eating, though.
I do like the safety strap feature.


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## FG167

onyx'girl said:


> my post was for the ones who may be reading this and think they can use the strap for a muzzle...you never know who reads what, and what they take from the internet advice....thanks for clearing it up Falon!
> I like the two line/collar method, I do it when I have a prong and a flat collar. When needed, the prong on a tab is used.


Oh I understand, I just didn't want the person who originally put that to think we were saying they were "wrong'.

Sidenote - I now have Brenda Aloff's Aggression book and she is also a fan of head halters (as is my Click to Calm book), and says instead of pulling up with the leash to tighten the muzzle strap - to move your fist up the pull part so that your fist is hanging onto the strap to close their mouths. This should do more to prevent their ability to yank the whole thing off.


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## RockinIt

Lora said:


> Yes mine came with a DVD also, the Vet also walked with him using the Gentle Leader how ever Brewski constantly would pull is head to the ground and scarpe his nose. *The harder we pulled to keep his head up the harder he pulled to get it to the cement.* My Vet told us not all harness,halti's and collars work for all dogs and that we needed to try a different one. I spoke to some on here and read a lot of info on the prong/pinch collar and went with it, wow is all I can say. Walks are enjoyable.


I just bought the GL the other day (on here looking at what other people have thought about it). I've talked to a LOT of people who use it when I saw it on their dogs and haven't got a single complaint about it. 

However... I watched the DVD that came with it and it explicitly stated that part of the point of it was to teach the dog to learn to walk on a loose leash. It said that when you pull on the dog it can cause the dog to fight the pressure and pull more. 

The only thing I don't like so far (and it has to do with the dvd not the actual contraption) is that on one part they are explaining how dogs can pull with a flat collor or choke chain or prong collar and how they don't work because the dog can push their body weight into them. After watching 10 minutes of being sure you understand how to correctly put on the GL not one of the examples for choke chains or prongs was fitted correctly. We do use a prong for Millie (our trainer spent an entire lesson on teaching us how to fit it properly and how to use it properly...and this was when we were in South Carolina doing private lessons that were upwards of an hour and a half long!!!) and we do love our prong. I just love new toys and wanted to test out the GL to see how it works. It kind of bothered me that they were so forceful on correct fit for their product, but really almost bashed other training aids by showing them fitted incorrectly and saying they don't work.


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## breadstand

doggiedad said:


> go out and train,train, train and socialize,
> socialize, socialize. don't depend on a devise.


I like your idea in theory, but how do you socialize a dog with reactivity? Other dogs owners are not keen on a big barking GSD socializing. I have had success at the dog park, but on a leash it can be a problem. Anyway, I would appreciate your suggestions.


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## dogma13

10year old thread


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## breadstand

Runswithdogs said:


> Regen walks well on the leash (loose leash) most of the time, the exception being when we see another dog. Her dog reactivity (on and off leash) is another issue altogether, but I am wondering if the Gentle Leader is a good choice for a dog-reactive dog.
> We use the Sense-ation harness right now and while it keeps her from pulling me over, it doesn't do anything to mitigate her crazy barking and lunging for the other dog.
> 
> We've completely stopped walking her on-leash during the day when there is a possibility of running into other dogs because it is so frustrating and embarrassing to deal with the reactions of other dog owners (not to mention, the whole experience only ramps up anxiety/stress, does nothing to calm her). We do on-leash runs a couple times a week in the dark, and we can usually get by with only 1-2 dog encounters. The rest of the time, we drive 20 minutes to do off-leash hikes in the dark after work.
> 
> We would REALLY like to be able to walk/run with her in the neighborhood when necessary without having to wait until dark or pre-dawn.
> 
> I'm wondering if other people with reactive dogs have used the GL with any success. I know that the other part is counterconditioning, and we are working through Control Unleashed and have been working on the strategies, but the limited daylight and work stress set us back.
> 
> Ideas?


I'm in the same shoes. I'm curious as time has gone on if you've had resolution. I am currently using the GL and having success with it. Ideally I would socialize the dog more, but I'm not really sure how. Our dog is good at the dog parks, which seems odd. We did you use a prong collar for awhile with a lot of amazing initial success, but in time for some reason it's not so effective. Personally I feel like this is because the dog hasn't fundamentally addressed his issues with other dogs, and secondly there are a lot of people with negative opinions of prong collars so it create a general atmosphere of tension that contributes to reactivity. I also think a lot depends upon the handler. Some people can pull off a prong collar, and some people (like me), look like a mean jerk.


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## Fodder

breadstand said:


> I'm in the same shoes. I'm curious as time has gone on if you've had resolution. I am currently using the GL and having success with it. Ideally I would socialize the dog more, but I'm not really sure how. Our dog is good at the dog parks, which seems odd. We did you use a prong collar for awhile with a lot of amazing initial success, but in time for some reason it's not so effective. Personally I feel like this is because the dog hasn't fundamentally addressed his issues with other dogs, and secondly there are a lot of people with negative opinions of prong collars so it create a general atmosphere of tension that contributes to reactivity. I also think a lot depends upon the handler. Some people can pull off a prong collar, and some people (like me), look like a mean jerk.


hi… fyi, this thread is over 10yrs old. if you don’t receive the responses you’re looking for, you may want to consider starting your own thread.
welcome to the forum!


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## drparker151

breadstand said:


> I like your idea in theory, but how do you socialize a dog with reactivity? Other dogs owners are not keen on a big barking GSD socializing. I have had success at the dog park, but on a leash it can be a problem. Anyway, I would appreciate your suggestions.


Socializing a dog or puppy is not just Up close meeting of dogs and people, it all about exposure to lots of sights, sounds from a distance that allows you to keep training and working with the dog. This allows you condition the dog to ignore and treat as background. If you dog cannot focus move farther away, then keep moving closer as the dog get used to it. 

Dog parks, kids in a play ground, busy noisy street, garbage trucks and anything else that bothers your dog. 

When going by other dogs our girl will now heel. If we see an aggressive, reactive, or dog pulling owners along we move little farther away and I put her in a down stay.


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## Sunsilver

If your dog is being reactive, it means it is paying more attention to other dogs/people than it is to you. The way I cure that - and I've been VERY successful with this - is doing focus work at home.

You start with a handful of treats, and say 'look at me' or call the dog's name. When the dog looks at you - NOT the hand holding the treats - say "YES!", or click the clicker, or whatever signal you choose for a correct response, and immediately treat.

Once the dog learns how to do this sitting in front of you, have it sit in a heel position, and repeat. Once it has that down pat, start doing it while it's walking beside you. Don't rush it- make sure the behaviour is fully ingrained before moving outside, and adding distractions.

If the dog ignores you, do a leash correction, and repeat the command. Okay, I don't know if you can do a correction with a harness, but I'm sure you have some way of letting the dog know you didn't get the response you expected. 

One thing that is VERY important is being aware of when your dog is being distracted, BEFORE it gets to the barking and lunging stage. It will fixate on the distraction with its eyes, and THAT is the moment to tell it to avoid the distraction, and look at you. TIMING IS THE KEY!

I've used this method to correct a number of reactive dogs, one of which had a muzzle order. It took me only 20 minutes to get him walking calmly by my side and ignoring distractions (his owners) in favour of a treat.

This will also help you build a bond with your dog, and teach him that YOU are the most important thing in the world out there, not other dogs. If your dog is blowing you off in order to bark at other dogs and people, you do not have that bond.


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## Rabidwolfie

I used to use a Gentle Leader. If you ARE going to use a head collar, look into Halti. It stays on the head much better.

As others have said, a prong collar and quick corrections might work better, but no matter what you use, it will also require a lot of training to control the reactivity. A head collar will make it harder for the dog to pull you around, like the harness you already have, but it won't correct the issue.


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## herojig

The thread that won't die. But I'm sold on the technique of making friends with other dogs when outside. The trick is to go where the dog heart is, their stomach. Feeding training treats to all dogs (including mine) encountered on walks has created a safe zone for us to walk for miles overtime here in Kathmandu. I just use a strong lead and thick collar on Bernie (over 70kg). Those are the only tools readily available here. When we see a dog, we immediately stop and Bernie sits until the street dog passes. If the other is an aggressor (very rare because of Bernie's size), I continue to toss treats at the yapping jaws, all the time reassuring Bernie all is well, and he gets rewarded for sitting properly and scolded for yanking the chain and trying to attack. It's like chess, eventually there is a move and a counter move, I just have to think a few steps ahead, always. 

Now this may not cure aggression at all, but it does create a calmer environment from which to walk my dogs. If Bernie sees a dog we feed over time, he's less concerned and tends to then just ignore the recognized non-threat. Is this socialization? Seems to be the best we get from most humans, so maybe that's ok?


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## breadstand

I'm curious how long it takes. Sometimes, I'm not sure if I'm spinning my wheels or making progress and just expecting too much too soon. Our boy has come a very long way, and he walks excellently on leash except when confronted with another dog. I've been able to walk by others dogs moderately successful with the GL. I enjoy the advice everyone has presented. I have read and watched so much and there are so many opinions it gets overwhelming. I am currently in Switzerland, and correction is viewed much more negatively there, and yet I see their dogs are very well behaved in general, so their methods are working. Their methods seem to be consistent with what I'm seeing in this forum/chat/discussion: keeping the distance, treating, distraction training, focus, and patience.


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## herojig

breadstand said:


> I've been able to walk by others dogs moderately successful with the GL.


I don't even know what a Gentle Leader is in this context, but it's apt in the broader sense. _Gentle leaders _always get better results (the humankind). As for anything mechanical, I know nothing of that outside of leads and fiber collars, and I gotta believe that since we humans have been able to train dogs for thousands of years without these devices, we don't really need them now. I can see harnesses, as they are as old as farming itself, but zappers and prongs and god knows what else... i don't want to think about it.


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## David Winners

herojig said:


> I don't even know what a Gentle Leader is in this context, but it's apt in the broader sense. _Gentle leaders _always get better results (the humankind). As for anything mechanical, I know nothing of that outside of leads and fiber collars, and I gotta believe that since we humans have been able to train dogs for thousands of years without these devices, we don't really need them now. I can see harnesses, as they are as old as farming itself, but zappers and prongs and god knows what else... i don't want to think about it.


Do you have a cell phone? Do you walk everywhere our do you use modern conveyance methods such as riding a horse? Do you have indoor plumbing? That new fangled operant conditioning (developed a few decades ago) shouldn't be part of your training either. 

And to elude to modern training methods as barbaric is laughable. Read some old dog training books if you want to understand just how brutal training can be with a flat collar and leash. Dogs were choked out, whipped, deprived of food and water, hung by throwing a leash over a tree branch...

Also, a dog that didn't perform, had bad habits or bad genetics was just culled. Very often on the spot.

We are in an era that allows a prolific trainer like Tom Davis to wear "No Bad Dogs" apparel because we have figured out how to deal with a multitude of behavioral and genetic issues through training instead of just killing the dog.

Returning to the days of old would mean a lot of dogs would never see their first birthday.


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## herojig

David Winners said:


> Do you have a cell phone? Do you walk everywhere our do you use modern conveyance methods such as riding a horse? Do you have indoor plumbing? That new fangled operant conditioning (developed a few decades ago) shouldn't be part of your training either.
> 
> And to elude to modern training methods as barbaric is laughable. Read some old dog training books if you want to understand just how brutal training can be with a flat collar and leash. Dogs were choked out, whipped, deprived of food and water, hung by throwing a leash over a tree branch...
> 
> Also, a dog that didn't perform, had bad habits or bad genetics was just culled. Very often on the spot.
> 
> We are in an era that allows a prolific trainer like Tom Davis to wear "No Bad Dogs" apparel because we have figured out how to deal with a multitude of behavioral and genetic issues through training instead of just killing the dog.
> 
> Returning to the days of old would mean a lot of dogs would never see their first birthday.


I'm not saying that, I'm just saying I won't inflict pain or overstress a dog with any new-fangled tech, and I would hope that would be the consensus. Admittedly, I'm not familiar with the new training gadgets for dogs here, as they are not seen as useful in a country of 21 million. But if it emits sparks or any other form of electron flow that inflicts pain, I say no. I've worked with elephants where electrification of things was tried. To sum up, that always ends badly.

Ps. I do have a phone and an airtag on my dog's collars, as well as the car keys


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## David Winners

herojig said:


> I'm not saying that, I'm just saying I won't inflict pain or overstress a dog with any new-fangled tech, and I would hope that would be the consensus. Admittedly, I'm not familiar with the new training gadgets for dogs here, as they are not seen as useful in a country of 21 million. But if it emits sparks or any other form of electron flow that inflicts pain, I say no. I've worked with elephants where electrification of things was tried. To sum up, that always ends badly.
> 
> Ps. I do have a phone and an airtag on my dog's collars, as well as the car keys


Not to drag this on but...

You have a perception of using training tools that is not based in reality. If you were to watch Valor and me out on a hike, you could not tell when the e-collar button was pushed. It is barely perceptible by the dog. New clients laugh out loud when I put the e-collar on them the first time. 

Not all trainers use the same methods. Tools are not inherently good or bad. The use of the tool and the perception the dog has of the stimulus is what determines the effectiveness and humaneness of that tool.


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## Sunsilver

AMEN! Are you aware that modern e-collars have a 'pager' function where they use a beep or vibration rather than a shock to get a dog's attention? And, as Dave has said, even the shocks are so mild that the dog barely feels them. Okay, we don't know what the dog feels, but if you place the collar on your arm, and someone shocks you, YOU will barely feel it.


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## herojig

David Winners said:


> Not to drag this on but...
> You have a perception of using training tools that is not based in reality.


Ha, yes, that's probably true, after all, I am based in Nepal.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Rabidwolfie said:


> I used to use a Gentle Leader. If you ARE going to use a head collar, look into Halti. It stays on the head much better.
> 
> As others have said, a prong collar and quick corrections might work better, but no matter what you use, it will also require a lot of training to control the reactivity. A head collar will make it harder for the dog to pull you around, like the harness you already have, but it won't correct the issue.


I used to use GL but like Halti much better. The Halti is a stronger piece of equipment to begin with and has the backup strap.

malaise the Halti nose band is wider and more padded, and most importantly it doesn’t go into the eyes like the Gl seems to always want to do.

Some dogs will do better with a prong collar. Some dogs do better on a Halti


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