# Why is it ALWAYS the 6th blind?



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I would think that if you REALLY wanted to show how a dog can search then you would have them mix up which blind the helper will be in during the trial.

Why is it always the 6th blind? Is it just to show that you can train your dog to run around 5 objects before they do the bark and hold?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Many people do train with different blinds being "hot".... or even multiple blinds being "hot."

edited... I see you said in a trial. Hmmmm... maybe someone with more experience can say why.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is an obedience exercise that shows the dog's willingness to take direction from the handler despite knowing the bad guy is in the 6th blind. They are supposed to look in each blind as they go around so it is not just a matter of teaching the dog to run around an object.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

because they have to graduate steps and keep it a standard somehow. Why would you get a ScH III if they put the helper in the 2nd blind, but your friend's dog had to run all 6 to find the helper?

It's just about standardization, and there has to be some requirements. It shows a dog can take direction, that's about it. it looks nice when it's there and looks like crap when it's not, but what happens after that is what most people remember anyway, and where most of the points are awarded or lost.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it depends on the purpose of the exercise. Is is really about searching? Should it be treated like doing a building search with a police dog? I don't know. I see it the way Lisa described. The dog knows where the helper is and is demonstrating control. I also want to see the speed and enthusiasm from the dog running all 6 blinds. Even the dogs who slow down to check the blind can show awesome speed and enthusiasm. In training we put helpers in random spots (and often have 2-4 helpers out there) but like crackem is saying it's such a small part of the trial that most people aren't going to spend a lot of time on it as long as they have control.

Though we put people in random blinds we do all the real work at the 6 blind because it's just the best spot. That's where the gear is, where the people are standing, and in our case it's away from the busy road and exposed train track. Our 1, 3, 5 blinds are all about 50 feet from a set of train tracks and we get a dozen trains go by during training. Nobody wants to actually work a dog between those blinds and the track!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

All dogs running the same number of blinds is the only way to make the test fair. I always thought it would be fun at the beginning of a trial to have the judge pick a number out of a hat, say 3 through 6, and then whatever number was drawn, then all had to run that number. 
Sometimes it is so obvious the dog is going through the motions, you can usually tell the dogs that are trained "to the test" since they seem to be running the pattern and are trying to get to that last blind.

Annette


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

The knpv searches have more utility. Schutz is a sport afterall. If you're wanting to really work the dog then knpv is more appropriate in my opinion


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Something else the blind search does is shows the dog's ability to switch from obedience into aggression/fight when they hit blind 6.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

lhczth said:


> Something else the blind search does is shows the dog's ability to switch from obedience into aggression/fight when they hit blind 6.


 
And the phrase that is also used is Obed. under distraction.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Part is standardization. A certain number of blinds are required at each level and those are always the same. Otherwise Dog A who only had to run 3 blinds for his title and Dog B who ran 6, were not evaluated against the same standard and their titles should not be considered equivalent.

The biggest part though is that, as already mentioned, it isn't a search exercise. Scent work was already tested in one of the other phases. It is an obedience exercise under extreme distraction, to test if the dog is directable and willing to do as the handler asks even though he knows darned well where the helper is and himself would much rather just go straight there. And then after requiring the dog to suppress his drive and desire to satisfy it and instead perform the obedience of running blinds, it tests the dog's ability to then switch into drive immediately when he reaches the helper, despite having suppressed that drive up until that point.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Smithie86 said:


> And the phrase that is also used is Obed. under distraction.


And another element, at the Sch3 level, is that it tests the dog's conditioning and drive. If the dog doesn't have enough drive and conditioning to run 6 blinds and bark at the helper, it shows very quickly.

When a dog is a bit tired, obedience becomes more difficult, a dog's anxiety can go up a bit, and the dog has to work out of drive, not just excess energy.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Well, I would have to say that many of the dogs even in the more advanced levels are not "changing in drives" when they get to blind 6. Not really because they are bad dogs that dont have the potential to be balanced but they are so pattern trained by this time it is more diffiicult to work them other than in prey in this situation. Prey makes it great for points as well. 

Yep, running six blinds is good control even when the dog knows where the helper is but it is still just pattern training. People put a ball on the side of a field all the time...do the routine then release the dog for a reward. I know the helper is a higher attraction for many dogs.......no need to argue that one.

I am all for picking a blind the day of a trial. It would probably test the dogs ability to to switch drives even better when they show up at a blind and a helper is in there when they were not expecting it, right? I think many would be surprised by there dogs performance. You still have the obedience with this as well, Havnt you ever ran hot blinds and have the dog for some reason think in its head the helper is in three when he is actually in two? There would still be obedience involved...more so than you would think.

If you want to see how a dog is by all means look at its scores but go to its training sessions to see how serious it is in training in different scenerios.

Im not sure I like the way all of the protection work is done. i think I would have liked it better with the attack out of the blinds and other things that have been taken out.

All that being said, I do not compete, and do not plan to compete. For me it is not a sport it is just a training medium/method for my dogs. I will say that I have nothing but respect for the people who can put it all together and go out and pass, let alone getting high scores! The people who compete on a high level....WOW!....the time, Money and aggravation....nothing but respect for theses people.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with you Mareg. But I would have the handler pick out of a jar a slip and the number picked would be where the helper goes. This would be no more unfair than race horses having picked where they start the race. This would make for the training to be somewhat differently, but more important it would make each blind "meaningful" in the dogs eyes and require the dog to be thinking on each blind and to be prepared to act on each blind. Sometimes you get 3 and sometimes you get 5. The minimum would be three blinds. I think that would decrease the prey and increase the balance in the way the dog approaches EACH blind without compromising obedience.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Agreed!

I dont know if the blind search has changed in the past 25 years but I do know other things in the trial/test has changed such as the attack out of the blind searching the helper and the set up before the escape.

Yeah, I think the blinds show control but so didnt searching the helper with the dog in a down. You want real control? have two commands one to search and bite and one to search and guard

I was told by some old timers that the attack out of the blind ran many dogs which was part of the reason for getting rid of it. That would show if a dog could change in drives. 

Seems to me the trials of old were developed to test the* dog* for what it is supposed to be. In turn you had to train and breed in specific ways and for specific reasons to develop the dog properly.

It seems now people are training and breeding for what the *trial *is or how it will change in the next two years not vice versa. I know that one is cofusing and may not make any sense....but it makes perfect sense to me.

What does this have to do with the helper being in blind six? maybe nothing, maybe everything. but, the person who asked this question probably has a little better understanding of what things should look like or will inspire them to ask more questions and they will learn what a GSD is supposed to be.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It wouldn't change the training and, sorry, it wouldn't be a surprise to most of the dogs. Running hot blinds is pretty common, at least in my area. The dogs think their might be a helper in any of the blinds and that is why they check each blind on trial day.

Hopefully with the new rule changes and judging requirements those dogs that come in and cookie bark for the sleeve won't be getting the "V" scores anymore (even under the current rules they weren't supposed to). This WILL show the dog's ability to switch from obedience to fight/aggression because it will be what is needed to score well.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

As long as I have been doing SchH, the blinds were just there to run around, for the lack of a better way to put it. I taught my first SchH 3 dog, way back in 1980, to go around the blinds using a ball. I may have been one of the few doing that at the time , other people were putting helpers in the blinds or trying to use a long line. The difference was, like I have said way too many times by now, the dogs were different and the training was more about the man than the sleeve. So, when the dogs went into the blind, they were not expecting to meet their friend there and the sleeve did not have the same level of significance it does for the dogs now.

I think maybe some people can appreciate what kind of dogs stayed in the blind when the helper was viewed more as a foe who was dangerous, vs someone who could be more of a delivery system for their favorite prey item. Yes, even then we were all looking for ways to beat the test with clever training but not to the degree we see now.

The attack on the handler is really much more of a test than I ever gave it credit for at the time but again, the dog viewed the helper as much more of a threat, so, it was an attack in the real sense. Dogs were actually expected to be protective and for the most part were. Yes, there were dogs who were not suited for SchH then but the training made that clear much sooner than it does nowadays.

Yes, people are now breeding SchH dogs vs German Shepherd dogs and telling themselves the dogs are better. I guess better is a relative term but IMO, that is not the case. We have dogs now who will not protect their owners and still having a Protection dog title. I guess the change in name will solve that contradiction.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

I think you may have missed the point. 

I think it may surprise more dogs than you would think in an actual trial....not talking about training. Most people run hot blinds....everyone knows that.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Having a dog that checked every blind in trials, it would not have surprised her. Different dogs, different training, but then I am getting to be one of those old timers.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The conditioning part is definitely one area a lot of people forget, ignore and it shows up during trials. In all three phases.....

Dog just loping through the blinds and the handler screaming commands.Not a great overall picture. Some people on the sides think that is shows power - but if you can not handle a strong dog with a lighter touch, are you really handling the dog or covering up issues? 

I like watching the blind search when it is done with intensity, focus in the blind and speed. Not just the quick glance in the blind.....

Condition and other issues that show up with not immediate barking/strong barking/consistent barking is a common issue as well. Call out of the blind - dog is all over the place.

Then the dog settles down on the back half. But it should be the whole picture and points.....


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

What point was missed? It surprises the dogs with less than stellar temperament and you can see the results of that. I never saw a good dog surprised by it once they saw it in training. Usually, how fast the helper came out would affect how much harder they went in for the bite though.

I have seen surprised dogs and that is where I really started to appreciate how much of a test that was. I remember one show line dog who was surprised every single time we did it in training and of course, also in the Breed Survey. The dog was not a good dog but if you consider how the dog's viewed SchH protection some years back, you should be able to understand what I just said.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Are we talking the dog would be surprised by a helper in another blind other than 6 or are we talking about the attack on the handler?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Something to consider. IF we were to make the search more random to where the helper could be anywhere, do you honestly believe this would not be trained for? Random blinds would be part of the training so would no longer be a surprise to the dogs.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok, I think I have this figured out now. It's Saturday and I am a bit slow. However, along the lines of what I said about the attack on the handler...the good dogs would not have a problem once they saw it in training...as Lisa just pointed out. The less than suited dogs WOULD have a problem. Just from what I have seen...so....you can be sure that will NEVER happen in a trial. It is not about making the dogs better now, it is about adjusting the test so they can pass.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

They don't need to do that anymore. The ones that can't pass just go over seas and come back with a title in their scorebook.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It would seem to me that if it might flush out some of the weaker dogs than it may be good for the breed. But what do I know.....anything standardized can be trained for!, including alternating the blinds,,,,Yet....its amasing where changes are made to Sch they seem to always make it easier, but suggest something just a little less patterned.....Agh!!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think the pattern theory, where it makes things so much easier, is just not the case as much as people may think. The pattern was there years ago. You cannot "condition away" who the dog is genetically, which is why the dog I talked about earlier was always surprised, no matter how many times he saw the exercise. 

The weaker dogs are not passing because they are being "pattern trained". It is another "pattern" that has developed over the years that is allowing that. Meaning, a pattern where judges are not really judging.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Oh course people would train for a helper in a random blind. They have to train for eveything, escape bite, courage test, out, reattack.... Thats the whole point...trianing. But at least it would be a blind search.

In reality most people who are training for a trial use hot blinds as a way train the dogs to run the pattern building them up to the point where they will run all six before getting a reward. More of a random reward system like rewarding the ball for more randomely during obedience then putting the ball on the side lines and then do the complete routine.

I am a novice but have been around long enough to realize a dog knows when it is training and when it is a trial. Trial smart dogs will know when it is a trial and yes I do think there is a good possibility that the dog will blow right past the helper in blind two when it see the judge standing down on the other end of the field....that is if the dog has not been trained to search each blind. If it does notice the helper the guard will more than likely be less intense.

Ill buy the dog from the breeder who breeds for what the GSD is supposed to be.....Ill let eveyone else buy from the breeder that breeds for a trial.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Judges are definitely passing weaker dogs, no question, the more patterned the test the easier to condition weaker dogs. Nothing is absolute, but all contributes.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> The knpv searches have more utility. Schutz is a sport afterall. If you're wanting to really work the dog then knpv is more appropriate in my opinion


I wish you could work KNPV here.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Why is it always the 6th blind? Is it just to show that you can train your dog to run around 5 objects before they do the bark and hold?



For me it shows the dog's ability to to disengage from the helper and go on to another task. For some dogs it's nearly imposable for them to really forget about the helper in 6 and mind what the handler is directing the dog to do. They might still run the blinds but you can always tell that all they can really think about is blind 6.


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