# Feeding my puppy



## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

Hi there, I've been currently feeding my GSD puppy wysong growth, with a little bit of archetype. I'm really not so estatic about the low protein content. 

I've been looking at two options for change:

A: rotating the three flavors of Blue Wilderness food, which has a 35% protein

B: Moving to wysong epigen, combined with the au jus diet and Archetype. The epigen is 60% protein.

Let me know what you think, and if these diets would be ok for a puppy. She is coming around on 14 weeks.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

That food doesn't look too good to me. Doens't look like much meat at all, so it's probably a smart idea to move on to something better.

It's not protein that you should be worried about - it's the calcium that's not good for large breed puppies. You don't want to go over 1.5% (max calcium). 

I believe that Blue Buffalo's Wilderness line is around 2% max calcium and that's just too much for a growing puppy. If you like Blue Buffalo, check out their Chicken and brown rice formula. I've never fed it, but i know there are plenty of member here that do and are very happy with it. 

I've never heard of wysong, but I could recommend a few other kibbles that you may want to look in to. Orijen is one of them. It's the best if you ask me. It's 42% protein, very meat heavy, quality ingredients, grain free, and they have a formula that safe for large breed puppies with lower calcium.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

Wysong.net I thought it was some pretty popular food guess not. I will take a look into orijen large breed puppy. With the orijin do you supplement with any kind of raw or canned food?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

jmoney said:


> Wysong.net I thought it was some pretty popular food guess not. I will take a look into orijen large breed puppy. With the orijin do you supplement with any kind of raw or canned food?


Yeah, I'll add some steamed chicken, yogurt, cottage cheese, canned pumpkin, green tripe, raw eggs, among other things. You really don't have to since orijen is a very balanced food, but I like to spoil Lucy. Plus it doesn't hurt.

Just looked over the wysong products and wasn't too impressed. It's decent, but most of the formulas are not very meat heavy. Even the one that said 40% protein looks kind of mediocre. What's with all the poultry meal? Why not chicken or turkey meal?


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

I have no idea, I just heard that this starch-free epigen was supposed to be a great food with a little bit of warm water sprinkled on top.

I read through the large breed puppy formula for orijen and it seems fine to me, I'm going to wait and see if I can get a little more feedback on the wysong, and then it looks like I will start the switch over to the orijen food


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

If i do move over to origen with a GSD should i feed more than the requirements or right on them?


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

BB Wilderness calcium is 1/3% and Pho is 0.9%, I've got a bag right in front of me now.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

oops typo, that's 1.3% on calcium


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Orijen is a great food. But whatever you decide to switch to, as long as your puppy is at a good weight for her size (lean but not overly skinny, not chunky), she's probably getting an appropriate amount of calories. The recommended feeding guide is just that, a guide. So you can either start there and adjust as necessary based on her condition, or you can do a simple calculation to figure out how many cups of the new food will equal the same number of calories that she's currently getting of the old food. 

The Kcals per cup should be on the bag, and you can also look it up online. Just multiply the number of cups she eats each day by the kcals to get the total number of calories. Then divide that by the Kcals per cup of the new food. Very simple.

For example, if she's eating 3 cups a day of a food with 350 calories per cup, that's 1050 calories a day. If you want to switch her to a food with 400 calories a cup, you'd divide 1050 by 400 and get 2.625, which would be the number of cups you would need with the new food. 

If she's eating a food with 450 calories and you want to switch to a food with 400 calories it would look like this:

450 x 3 = 1350 calories per day
1350 divided by 400 = 3.375 cups


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

Thats good to hear, as I can get that at my local pet store.. what its really coming down too is which is going to be the best for my puppy, the orijen wilderness or epigen, the indredients all appear to be near the same, but epigen by far has the most protein


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> That food doesn't look too good to me. Doens't look like much meat at all, so it's probably a smart idea to move on to something better.
> 
> It's not protein that you should be worried about - it's the calcium that's not good for large breed puppies. You don't want to go over 1.5% (max calcium).
> 
> ...


This is a good example of the Orijen marketing blitz. Dr. Randy Wysong has been a pioneer in canine nutrition for decades. If you can find the foods and the price is right stick with it. The growth forumula is a time tested product. Orijen has been out for a few years with no obvious scientific pedigree whatsoever.

"That food doesn't look too good to me. Doens't look like much meat at all, so it's probably a smart idea to move on to something better."

Clearly, you can't nourish a dog with this advise.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

So would you recommend staying with the growth formula, and archetype rather than moving to the new epigen or another food?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

jmoney said:


> So would you recommend staying with the growth formula, and archetype rather than moving to the new epigen or another food?


Why are you switching? I would stay with it unless there is a specific reason. The Archetype looks very rich maybe just use it for treats and training. the 26/14 Growth is essentially an all life stages food and looks perfectly fine.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

Wysong Learn Section / Criticisms of Wysong 

interesting article i just read, starting to make me lean more back to the wysong


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

I wanted to originally switch from growth to epigen because of the benefits of a starch-less food, the only thing that concerned me is the incredibly high protein level

and the archetype only goes in at a 1/4 cup with every meal


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

jmoney said:


> I wanted to originally switch from growth to epigen because of the benefits of a starch-less food, the only thing that concerned me is the incredibly high protein level
> 
> and the archetype only goes in at a 1/4 cup with every meal


 
Wysong is top food. If you are unsure about amounts just ask them. That is a top company doing this for years and years.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks for the words of wisdom I guess I will give them a call here in a bit


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> oops typo, that's 1.3% on calcium


again, those are the listed minimums. someone posted an email from BB a while back indication maximum Ca levels around 2%

as such, i would not feed it to a large breed pup.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

well after getting off the phone with them their system makes a lot more sense, I will be re-ordering a case of growth, a few bags of archetype 100% uncooked raw, and 1 8lb bag of epigen. I will slowly move to epigen, stay for a few weeks, slowly move back to growth for a few weeks, etc etc while feeding raw at the bottom of the bowl, and topping occasionally with au jus. Makes a lot more sense when they explain how their rotation of food works. 

If anyone has any questions on this let me know they were really helpful on the phone.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sable123 said:


> This is a good example of the Orijen marketing blitz. Dr. Randy Wysong has been a pioneer in canine nutrition for decades. If you can find the foods and the price is right stick with it. The growth forumula is a time tested product. Orijen has been out for a few years with no obvious scientific pedigree whatsoever.
> 
> "That food doesn't look too good to me. Doens't look like much meat at all, so it's probably a smart idea to move on to something better."
> 
> Clearly, you can't nourish a dog with this advise.


The formula that the OP's feeding is Wysong Growth. These are the main ingredients: Organic Chicken, Chicken Giblets, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Oat Groats, Poultry Fat.

Chickens not in meal form so it's going to drop in the ingredient list once it loses all it's water during the cooking process. The same with chicken giblets (why is giblets even a main ingredient and not chicken meal??). The two main ingredients are most likely Rice and Oats making it a not very meat heavy kibble at all.

Dogs are carnivores. They don't need oats and rice. They need meat protein. This food is not meat heavy. Orijen is very meat heavy. 1 + 1 still equals 2, so which food to you think is a better food? Never heard of Dr. Randy Wysong and I don't care much for his rice and oat heavy food either. To me, it looks no better than Purina Proplan, Iams, or eukanuba in a fancy bag with a fancy name. Three foods I'd never feed my dog.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

roxy84 said:


> again, those are the listed minimums. someone posted an email from BB a while back indication maximum Ca levels around 2%
> 
> as such, i would not feed it to a large breed pup.


The 1.3% that the other posted mentioned are minimum amounts. Roxy's right, you need to look at max calcium percentage, not minimum. The true percentage for BB wilderness is around 2% and too high for a large breed puppy.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

1. What I have gathered is that there is no all in one food, that should be fed on a constant basis

2. The use of wysong foods should never be done singularly, there is a rotation for my dog we landed on Archetype in the morning, which is 100%raw meat. Growth in for lunch, which holds all the necessary nutrients that a growing puppy will need, and at dinner epigen, which is 100% starch free, which there is no other food that can claim that, where orijen uses potatoes and such. The protein content is also 60% which is very high, and the meat content is also 60%+ of the kibble. A very well-rounded diet, with the occasional use of canned foods.

3. On grains---


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A little history - When Wysong pet foods were first formulated in the early 1980s, special attention was paid to ingredients, not just - as was the common practice at that time - percentages of protein and the like. 

Then Wysong introduced the idea of archetypal feeding. That means diets for pets should be predominantly meat, meals should be varied, and raw foods should be at least rotated into the diet. These concepts remain critical for pet owners to understand if health is their objective. Some manufacturers, looking for an edge in the market, are attempting to capitalize on these concepts. (See Raw Pet Food Deceptions Exposed.) 

Doing so is one thing. Not doing so and leading the public to believe you are, is quite another.

The “no grains” claim on a pet food is made to lead people to believe there is either something wrong with grains or that the food is predominantly meat. The claim also implies that a “no-grain” food is better or safer than all the products that have grains. 

Grains are added to dry extruded pet food kibble because the starch they contain permits the kibble to form in processing - similar to popcorn popping. If grains are not used, then some other form of starch must be used, such as potato or tapioca. The starch in grain is essentially the same as starch from anything else. Starch is starch and there is no reason to believe the starch in grains is somehow uniquely inferior or dangerous compared to other starches. In fact, the nutritional value of grains is superior, particularly to tapioca. (See What Are The Healthier Grains?)

Although it is true that starch is not a natural component of a carnivore’s diet, simply substituting one starch for another does not solve the problem. Pet foods that contain starch and have the “no grain” claim is like saying you are on a “no water” diet because some sources of water are polluted, but then drinking water anyway. 

Companies who attempt to demonize grains (corn, wheat, etc.) and soy omit the fact that the meats they use come from animals fed primarily corn and soy. Even organic chickens are fed this diet. Since an animal cannot be something better than the food it eats, it is misleading to claim the demerits of soy, corn, etc. and then use meat products raised on them. 

Feeding in variety and using true all meat foods is the solution. Examples include Wysong Au Jus™ canned varieties, and the Wysong TNT™ processed raw cat and dog foods such as Archetype™, Dream Treats™, and UnCanny™. 

‘Hiding’ the starch in the formula by using potato or tapioca does not make a food more meatier than a grain based pet food. 
**There is now an exception to this rule. Wysong has developed a method at its processing facilities to extrude high meat kibbles (70+%) without the use of any added starch or carbohydrates.
*
--if you have any other questions i can try an answer them as best I can


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

That Wysong archetype is crazy what they're charging. You get 12 of the 7.5 oz bags for $175?? Do you get gold and diamonds with those bags? 

If you want to go the raw route, why don't you just go to the grocery store and pick up the ingredients? You'll pay a fraction of the price and the meats probably better and you're getting more of it. Much more. That is a complete rip off what they're charging.

Their raw is a complete rip off and their growth kibble is average at best. If you want to go raw, buy your own ingredients at the store. If you want to go the kibble route, there are plenty of better choices than their growth formula, but in the end it's completely up to you. It's your dog and your money.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

thats would be a year supply of archetype, those bags when you rehydrate make a lot of food


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So one 7.5 oz is supposed to last an entire month feeding it once a day? You sure about that? 

To be honest, this whole wysong diet sounds like a gimmick to me. One type of food in the morning, one type in the afternoon, and one type at night. Seems like something you'd see on an infomercial at 2 in the morning. 

The ingredients are decent for some of their foods, but others are not so great. And they told you a 7.5 oz bag is supposed to last an entire month? That's a one half pound bag. Doesn't make sense to me, but you've heard my opinion on the food. I don't want to keep repeating myself. Maybe some other members here will give you some feedback.

EDIT - Oh and a sidenote, I would take what sable123 says with grain of salt. If you look back at some of his/her other posts, I would never take that members advice too seriously in regards to a dogs diet.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

1 bag lasted me 1 month from personal experience at once a day...and the idea is that the gimmick is that there is one food that can actually claim to be a complete, or natural diet all in one formula.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I didn't say one food can be complete, but there is the idea that one food is more nutritious than another. There is no doubt in my mind that Orijen is more nutritious for a dog than wysong. No doubt.

Now if you want to add some variety, you can always do that. I know i do.


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## dropship (Jul 1, 2010)

I've been reading through a lot of the feeding threads, trying to make good decisions about what to feed our new pup. Obviously, opinions range far and wide. I'm no expert, and do not have the answer; still looking. There were a few interesting points in this article about grains in food, and certainly, um, food for thought. However, this part jumps the track of rational argument:



jmoney said:


> Companies who attempt to demonize grains (corn, wheat, etc.) and soy omit the fact that the meats they use come from animals fed primarily corn and soy. Even organic chickens are fed this diet.* Since an animal cannot be something better than the food it eats, it is misleading to claim the demerits of soy, corn, etc. and then use meat products raised on them. *


This is like saying if you feed your dog beef, you should be fine with feeding her grass, because that's what cows eat, and since beef is good for your dog, so is grass, because that's what beef used to be. 

Turning one thing into something else, like turning grain into meat through organic metabolism, is only 'better' in context of what you want. It is, however, different. And that different thing can be exactly what meets another creature's nutritional requirements, making it 'better'. (see The Food Chain)


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Nice post Dropship. I didn't even notice that.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I didn't say one food can be complete, but there is the idea that one food is more nutritious than another. There is no doubt in my mind that Orijen is more nutritious for a dog than wysong. No doubt.
> 
> Now if you want to add some variety, you can always do that. I know i do.



That is what good marketing does. The truth is that Orijen is just a kibble and not blessed by the Lord. I will take Dr. Wysong's, Robert Abady's & Robert Downey's (Annamaet's) science, track record and academic & practical background over the Canadian con-job. You have no basis other than a love affair to say that Orijen is better than Wysong. Remember Orijen has had three major recalls including Mad Cow.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dropship said:


> This is like saying if you feed your dog beef, you should be fine with feeding her grass, because that's what cows eat, and since beef is good for your dog, so is grass, because that's what beef used to be.
> 
> Turning one thing into something else, like turning grain into meat through organic metabolism, is only 'better' in context of what you want. It is, however, different. And that different thing can be exactly what meets another creature's nutritional requirements, making it 'better'. (see The Food Chain)


Actually, there was some truth in that. The meat from a cow that is fed corn vs. grass has a higher omega 6 content. Grass fed has a higher omega 3. By changing the food, we've changed the structure. High Omega 6 leads to all sorts of health problems.

So if we are feeding a kibble made for meat that was fed corn or soy those changes in the structure of the meat carry over.

Feeding organic does NOT mean grass fed. It only means the animal wasn't injected with hormones or fed anything with pesticides, etc. Basically, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. All we can really do is make a call based on our experience and research and balance the rest with supplements if need be.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I didn't say one food can be complete, but there is the idea that one food is more nutritious than another. There is no doubt in my mind that Orijen is more nutritious for a dog than wysong. No doubt.
> 
> Now if you want to add some variety, you can always do that. I know i do.



Here is one thing to consider. Where does Orijen get "fresh de-boned salmon" all year round? The wild salmon season is May to September.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

sable123 said:


> Here is one thing to consider. Where does Orijen get "fresh de-boned salmon" all year round? The wild salmon season is May to September.


 
i will email them for you and give you an answer.

now if we want to talk about a company with no credibility in using sound science in their claims, we could discuss a company claiming their food prevents hip dysplasia...there is a company i would not trust.

now , back to the original poster, i would consider Orijen Puppy large to be a very fine choice for your pup.....and no i didnt need orijen promotional materials to convince me. i researched the science and biology of canines and came to this conclusion on my own. is it perfect? no way. no dry dog food is. the closest thing you will get to perfect is in feeding raw, imo.

and no, Orijen will not prevent hip dysplasia, nor will any other food. overfeeding it, or any other food, will exacerbate the symptoms that will come with a dysplastic dog.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sable123 said:


> You have no basis other than a love affair to say that Orijen is better than Wysong. Remember Orijen has had three major recalls including Mad Cow.


The ingredient list is a pretty good start. 

Orijen large breed puppy ingredients until fat: 

Fresh deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh deboned salmon, herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh deboned lake whitefish, fresh deboned walleye, chicken fat.

Wysong Growth ingredients until fat:

Organic Chicken, Chicken Giblets, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Oat Groats, Poultry Fat.

I don't need "good marketing" to teach me how to read an ingredient list. Orijen has meats in meal and non-meal form. Meat meals listed before carbs. Wysong has chicken (w/ water included in weight) and chicken giblets (why giblets??), and then two grains and then "poultry" fat. 

I don't know why you stand behind these so called genius, dog diet changing doctors, but their food is not very good diet for a carnivore.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

im sure it would be a great kibble, I am simply going to continue using the wysong product line, orijen makes a lot of claims that are not making any sense to me. sable has pointed out a few of them. Also wysong doesn't really advertise, they are a word of mouth business, because the processes they use to make their food simply would not work to be mainstream, it would be far too expensive. I will continue using growth, archetype, and add aujus, and epigen into the weekly rotation. I will report back with pictures my puppy at 6 months before she goes in to be spayed. 

-but by all means lets continue this discussion it is interesting.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

jmoney said:


> im sure it would be a great kibble, I am simply going to continue using the wysong product line, orijen makes a lot of claims that are not making any sense to me. sable has pointed out a few of them. Also wysong doesn't really advertise,
> 
> -but by all means lets continue this discussion it is interesting.


a person bashing claims of orijen and supporting a company that makes far more ridiculous claims loses credibility with me....they have this mantra of "dont look at the label, try the food, youll see...." 

im weird this way, but i do look at the label and what is put into the food.....which is why, if im going to feed a dry dog food, i will stick with Orijen.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

roxy84 said:


> i will email them for you and give you an answer.
> 
> now if we want to talk about a company with no credibility in using sound science in their claims, we could discuss a company claiming their food prevents hip dysplasia...there is a company i would not trust.
> 
> ...


 
Be fair to Abady they always mention that the info comes from Fidelco and the letter from Fidelco is on the website.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

That is an interesting question about the supply of fresh salmon.

Robert, from Abady, makes some "interesting" claims too, in my opinion.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

they don't say just look at the results not the label, there is an entire section of their site dedicated to each and every single ingredient in their food

Wysong Learn Section

even a part that includes the criticisms of their food


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Can I point out that they are trying to sell you something? I never look at a manufacturer's site for facts. A marketing person wrote up the most attractive description they could think of. So take what they say and then do independent research on it. If the facts are verified and it makes you happy, then go for it.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

Samba said:


> That is an interesting question about the supply of fresh salmon.
> .


i do have an email out to them regarding that. i will post their response in its entirety as soon as i get it.


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## dropship (Jul 1, 2010)

I'd guess that the salmon if from a hatchery. 'Fresh' doesn't necessarily mean 'free range'.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

good point


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

anyone ever get an update back from orijen?


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

jmoney said:


> anyone ever get an update back from orijen?


 
still waiting


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

just got in the epigen today, it is pretty crazy they made a food without using starch whatsoever, it actually holds together pretty well. starting her rotation on archetype for AM, growth for lunch, and epigen for dinner, growth and epigen with an au jus topping from them.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

finally got a repy from orijen regarding the salmon sources. so ,as some expected they use farmed when they have to. so, the salmon meal, which is going to comprise most of the meat in their fish formula, is still made from the wild caught (obviously salmon meal has a much longer shelf life than fresh fish)



_Hi Derek,_

_Nice to hear from you again!_

_We source wild salmon when the seasons allow. For the balance of the year, we use fresh farmed salmon rather than using frozen. Again, this is in keeping with our mandate as well as our sustainability values. Our salmon oil and the salmon used to produce our salmon meal are from 100% wild caught salmon. _

_I appreciate you taking the time to contact us for the facts, if I can be of further assistance please feel free to write back._

_Best Regards,_

_*Bonnie*_
_Customer Care_
_Champion Petfoods LP_
_p 780.939.6888_
_f 780.939.6858_


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