# Compulsion



## Vandal

We had a discussion on another list about pressure from the handler in SchH. We were specifically discussing obedience and certain dogs from the past who were less willing and required that kind of training to do the work. Some of the posters felt that the less corrections the better. They immediately blamed the type of training for the way the dog we were talking about , worked. They had never seen the dog or trained anything with that dog close in the bloodline but were pretty adamant that the training was causing the dog's "stubbornness". It is interesting to me that people seem to be a tad discouraged by the dogs who require a different motivation to work. When the word "compulsion" is used, people seem to immediately recoil and quickly come up with alternatives to offer. I suppose it is because so many have seen people who have zero skill yanking a dog around by his neck or maybe someone who is also angry at the same time.
For me, compulsion is a case like what I talked about in another thread. When done correctly it is like the difference between watching an unskilled rider try to control a horse and a skilled dressage rider doing it. The dressage rider may have a much stronger animal but makes it all look effortless. Compulsion should not be so obvious, that is all people are able to focus on when they watch. I also feel that there is no reason whatsoever, that a dog trained using compulsion should not look, and be, just as happy and quick as one trained with treats and toys. Many look much better, especially in the heeling. This type of training requires more feel for the dog, more self discipline and more skill. 

So, I have three questions. 

What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion? 

Second question.

Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ? 

Third

Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?


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## Xeph

> What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion?


For me, compulsion is about frustration with the dog, and so I myself cannot use it often, as quite frankly, I could ruin my dog. I'm too emotionally invested. I do not like it when other people use compulsion on my dog either, because I'm too emotionally invested.

The first time somebody ear pinched my dog to teach the retrieve, I wanted to punch them in the face. My dog didn't understand what was being asked of him, and I thought it was (and is) a very unfair method. I ended up having to clicker him through the retrieve. I got a much better retrieve using the clicker. Before I tried that, my dog would run away when I brought out the dumbbell.



> Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ?


I believe it's a better test of showing his natural willingness to work with me.



> Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?


I think it is. How can you force a dog to do something it doesn't understand? Compulsion overall seems to radiate "do it, or else", and I don't like that. Titles aren't worth it.


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## Jason L

(1) this may sound crass (so I apologize in advance lol) - but my only fear is it will make my dog look bad ... flat and dispirited.

(2) No. Actually I believe it's the opposite. A dog that can handle pressure, fight through it and keep his head straight ... that to me is what a strong working dog should do. IMO that tells a lot about a dog.

(3) No. Again this goes back to how a dog handles pressure. Yes, initially there will be confusion and depending on how much pressure/force is used, even panic but the dog that can handle it and fight through it will learn very quickly what you are trying to "teach" him. Obviously I don't think you should do this with everything you teach but in selected instances I don't see anything wrong with it.


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## Lynn_P

What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion? 

I don't have a fear or discomfort with compulsion as long as it's fair & done properly. By properly what I am referring to is what is the reason for the compulsion, how does the dog react and recovery from the correction/compulsion, is there a balance between the compulsion and praise/support given to the dog, and to me most importantly hopefully there is no emotion, especially anger, behind that compulsion. I've seen handlers go directly to compulsion because they don't want to take the time to "train/teach" the dog new exercises. They want the quick, easy way to get their goals accomplished. I don't agree with this at all, and these are the times when I usually have to walk away before I open my mouth about the unfairness of the training.


Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ? 

No, not when evaluating a working dog's ability. Even us humans have to learn, handle and accept stress at our work place, no? Like I mentioned above, there's a balance that MUST be achieved. If there are no rewards (i.e. a pay check), would we as employees continue to work in a stressful situation? 

Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?

In my training, I personally won't go to compulsion until I know the dog understands the command and refuses to comply. Also, throughout the foundation work I am getting the young dog conditioned to handle collar pops and the prong. I just don't put a prong on a dog and start yanking the heck out of him. 

Instead of calling this "corrections", it's more like I would consider "guidance". 


Let me ask something? Is motivational pops of the collar considered "compulsion" like one might use to work on focus?


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## Cassidy's Mom

This is in the Schutzhund section - is it intended to be a discussion about training within the specific context of Schutzhund, or training in general?


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## Vandal

Yes, it is specifically for SchH people to answer.


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## lesslis

Not trying to change any questions but really trying to understand something. How is the dog supposed to react to compulsion type training? What are you looking for as far as stress, recovery, so on?


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## gagsd

_What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion? _
I started training with a Koehler style trainer, and never had emotional issues with it. Kind of a carrot and stick method. It made sense to me.
I noticed it is harder for a beginner trainer, as timing is hard to get correct, so the dog does not get things as well, and I have seen a lot of beginners give too many corrections due to this. But clarity from the handler is an issue with any style of training.
I joined a schutzhund club a few years later that used a lot of force. Stomach turning methods of training. After that, I find myself not wanting to even put a pinch on my dogs. 
So now my issue is to balance the two at a spot that I can live with. Unlike some of the people I have personally seen compete, I LIKE my dogs. 
If you have to fry your dog down a track, creating "safe zones" at the articles, what is that doing for the breed?

_Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ?_ 
It tests some drives. If motivation is warm praise from the handler, that would be super, right?

_Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?
_My gut response (today) is yes, it is wrong. The dog should be shown how to do something, and allowed to learn to learn. There will be plenty of stress through proofing and doing those behaviors later, once they are taught.


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## Vandal

Ok, so far, I am getting the impression that the word compulsion is the problem. It puts "pictures" in people's heads. So, maybe we should replace the word with corrections so people can think clearly. lol. 
BTW, you guys are not answering the third question. You are telling me what you do but not answering the WHY part of it.


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## Vandal

I'm going to ask Lynn why it is necessary to condition a dog to handle a correction. Isn't it up to the handler to understand what level of correction the dog can handle?


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## lesslis

Third question: NO How can you "correct" a dog for something it has not learned yet????


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## Vandal

BTW, when I use the term compulsion, I am not referring to the use of ear pinches, hands to hit, feet to kick etc. I am talking about a collar correction.


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## Lynn_P

Vandal said:


> BTW, you guys are not answering the third question. You are telling me what you do but not answering the WHY part of it.


I think teaching using corrections isn't something a strong fair leader should use. I would think it could jeopardize the "bond" between dog/handler. Maybe it's a personal thing, I'm not sure.


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## gagsd

Vandal said:


> BTW, when I use the term compulsion, I am not referring to the use of ear pinches, hands to hit, feet to kick etc. I am talking about a collar correction.


I do that naturally, in my "motivational" training. Teach the dog to look at me, teach him to heel. Maybe just a few steps at a time to start. But when he looks away, I automatically give leash pop and/or an "ack." Then praise when dog is back in position. It is not a big deal, but otherwise I might wait an hour for him to "decide" to look at me so that I can mark it.
My way is also marker training, right?! I am marking the incorrect behavior and the correct ones.

(and yes, I think the term compulsion does bring up really ugly visions, at least to me.)


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## Lynn_P

Vandal said:


> I'm going to ask Lynn why it is necessary to condition a dog to handle a correction. Isn't it up to the handler to understand what level of correction the dog can handle?


Ann, I was referring to working with a very young dog and maybe "conditoning" is the wrong word to use with what I'm trying to say. With a young dog, I'll start using slight collar corrections followed immediate with a reward so I can get a "read" on what that dog can handle. I've also experienced those young dogs that will "load" on collar corrections and then I need to adjust my training to fit that dog (meaning finding the correct drive level to work that dog). So by conditioning, I mean I learn what the dog's reactions are to corrections and plan the training accordingly. Does that make sense? The young male that I'm working now will load with corrections when in a high drive state. During the learning period of training, I need to keep his drive lower.


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## Vandal

> NO How can you "correct" a dog for something it has not learned yet????


That is a reasonable answer, so, don't take this the wrong way. I would prefer to get away from strict definitions of words. I know that sounds silly but I am asking people to think in dog terms. What exactly is a "pop on the collar" saying to the dog? For the sake of the conversation, lets say it is just the right level of "pop" for that dog.

If I am training a dog to heel and I am patting my leg to show the dog where I want him but he refuses, is it OK to pop the line? Should I wait until he choses to comply or do I go the unfair route? What exactly is unfair about that if I do correct him?


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## Vandal

Lynn, I have heard people talk about what you are saying where the compulsion is channeled into the toy etc. Similar to what some do in protection where defense/pressure is channeled into prey or how people are using the ball in the arm pit and the e-collar. 

Still, the dog is getting a pop for "no reason", so, do you consider yourself fair when you do that because the dog gets something afterwards?


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## Lynn_P

Vandal said:


> Still, the dog is getting a pop for "no reason", so, do you consider yourself fair when you do that because the dog gets something afterwards?


There's always a "command" given.. it might as simple as I'm walking the dog (not heeling) and call him to "come" (informal SchH "here" command) to see his reaction to the collar pop. It might be that the dog is complying to the command on his own, but the correction is still given if I'm working on what that dog can handle. Does the dog still come happily to me, or is he unsure and hesitate? My showline dog Jackson would react unsure, as he did not have the nerve strength to work through corrections. Laos on the other hand will remain in drive and just start initiating interaction with me when corrected. Like I said this is me maybe "conditioning" myself to evaluate the type of training the dog may need and the find out just what they can handle. 

p.s. I enjoy discussions like these. There are many different training methods and techniques and we all really can learn from one another.


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## SchHGSD

What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion? 
I fear I will lose a dog's quickness, and willingness. I am PETRIFIED I will reach a point where I need to use more compulsion to bring speed back. Mainly because I feel it is such a fine line to walk. I have gotten to watch what I consider a master trainer who uses compulsion, and it is a talent and skill all it's own.
 
Second question.

Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ? 

No. However, I DO use compulsion, once a dog has a general idea of what I am asking. If the dog falls apart, not so good of a dog. Or, as happened recently, if the dog comes back up the leash at me, I also need to rethink some things. Now- had I used compulsion with that dog from day 1 as a puppy, would I have had that reaction at 1 year? I don't know, he's a dog you know I'd love to have gotten a "do-over".

Third

Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?

I don't think it is wrong, but it is wrong for ME. I lack the subtle skill and lack of emotion to pull that off. I can get frustrated too easily, over correct, and ruin what I was trying to do. BUT- if we ARE talking small leash pops, etc, then YES I use them, and I use them occasionally in the learning phase. Sometimes the lesson is you MUST learn this.

One of the first schutzhund trainers I worked with told me to give the correction every time I said the command. So, regardless of what the dog did when I said SIT, he was to get corrected. He felt this would make the dog more reliable and bring an "oomph" to the dog when the command was given. I could never manage to try this, to me it was not fair to the dog, at all.


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## Vandal

I am not really trying to justify what I do, because I use whatever will work for each dog. However, I used to train using only compulsion and praise and the toy to relieve pressure. I know it can be done right, IF, you keep your head and use the level of correction to fit the dog. I have done it right and wrong. Michelle just said the same thing everyone else has touched on, the level of compulsion you use for each individual dog is what seems to determine "fairness" in people's minds. Is that correct? Do animals understand fairness? Oh my, I can just keep on asking the questions, this is the easy part. lol

Now I will add one more question. If you only train using motivation and you are convinced the dog knows what you want but one day refuses....do you introduce corrections right then and there? I mean, if he doesn't understand a correction because he has never experienced one or been taught how to work through that / learned what makes them stop, isn't there a level of "unfairness" in correcting him, even though he knows the command? You have always waited before and now suddenly there is discomfort . Does the order in which a correction is given really matter or is that just us, making dogs into people?


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## Lynn_P

> the level of compulsion you use for each individual dog is what seems to determine "fairness" in people's minds.


I think for me "fairness" for the dog means ~ does the dog know what behavior will relieve the stress of the correction? What I find unfair is that the dog receiving the correction has no idea what's being ask of him/her and the handler continues to increase the level of compulsion. Fairness is a human emotion, that's for sure. 

I've learned from my mistakes in the past with my showline dog. I went way over board with the level of compulsion that dog received. I guess that's why I take some time off the training field to see what level of correction a dog can handle before I get into formal training.


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## Jason L

Vandal said:


> Now I will add one more question. If you only train using motivation and you are convinced the dog knows what you want but one day refuses....do you introduce corrections right then and there? I mean, if he doesn't understand a correction because he has never experienced one or been taught how to work through that / learned what makes them stop, isn't there a level of "unfairness" in correcting him, even though he knows the command? You have always waited before and now suddenly there is discomfort . Does the order in which a correction is given really matter or is that just us, making dogs into people?


Michael Ellis calls it the "Commune Kid Syndrome". He compares it to a kid raised in hippie commune for the first 16 years of his life and then one day you put him in a public high school and there is a good chance that kid is going to fall apart or flip out - because he has never had to deal with any antagonistic, unpleasant, or compulsory and so he doesn't know how.


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> BTW, when I use the term compulsion, I am not referring to the use of ear pinches, hands to hit, feet to kick etc. I am talking about a collar correction.


This is a key concept in establishing the parameters of the discussion.



Vandal said:


> mWhat is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion?


My discomfort with compulsion methods are when they move to extremes. Which you've addressed in the quote above. 

My preference for motivational methods is based in my relationship with the dog. My priority is the bond I hold with the dog, which is the only dog I have to train...the dog I love. So I inherently look to employ motivational techniques that promote the bond and nurture the relationship first....under the notion of fostering trust between us.

After I have pushed as far as I can in a positive fashion, then I look to corrections to bring home the final desired result....which is where I am currently with my red & black dog. During obedience training now, she receives no food, no toys, simply a good pop with the leash/pinch, and a praise for compliance.

I suspect, when I am training my Wildhaus dog, he will be harder, of more solid nerve, and therefore hold-up better to compulsion sooner in training. I therefore anticipate my mix of techniques will be more correctional than I employed with my soft dog.



Vandal said:


> Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ?


 No, as it offers little to no pressure.



Vandal said:


> Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?


 I believe compulsion is just a method of teaching, as is motivation. I beleive an excellent trainer can assess the dog, and apply the techniques that produce the best results in that dog.


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> If I am training a dog to heel and I am patting my leg to show the dog where I want him but he refuses, is it OK to pop the line? Should I wait until he choses to comply or do I go the unfair route? What exactly is unfair about that if I do correct him?


Absolutely Yes it is OK to pop the line under that scenario, and frankly, as I said earlier, this is where I am with my high line x working line dog.

I have hesitated in the past to engage compulsion because she is soft. However, I am at a point now where significant ground is being gained with compulsion, and I will work at recovering her spirit after she has the discipline to heel as required.


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## gagsd

W.Oliver said:


> I beleive an excellent trainer can assess the dog, and apply the techniques that produce the best results in that dog.


Question: Do you (generic you) only base what is right/wrong regarding training methods on the outcome? 
For example.... any level of compulsion is OK as long as the dog can handle it?


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## W.Oliver

gagsd said:


> Question: Do you (generic you) only base what is right/wrong regarding training methods on the outcome?
> For example.... any level of compulsion is OK as long as the dog can handle it?


Degrees of reasonableness. I have trained with some KNPV dogs that would not out. The handler/trainer choked the dogs off me by lifting them off the ground by the pinch collar..with back legs kicking in the air, and they came right back at me. I would not lift my dog that way regardless if they could handle it or not.


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## Andaka

Vandal said:


> So, I have three questions.
> 
> What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion?
> 
> Second question.
> 
> Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ?
> 
> Third
> 
> Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?


#1 I don't have a problem with compulsion for enforcement of a command that the dog should already know. Compulsion can sharpen a dog's performance quicker and more precisely than motivation alone. That being said, I also "reward" after compulsion so that the dog stays motivated. I prefer to teach using motivation because I can teach a younger dog behaivors that would have to wait until they were older using compulsion.

#2 Working for motivation only MAY show that the dog has little or no interest in pleasing the handler.

#3 I prefer to teach using motivation and then sharpen using compulsion as mentioned in #1.


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## SchHGSD

Vandal said:


> the level of compulsion you use for each individual dog is what seems to determine "fairness" in people's minds. Is that correct? Do animals understand fairness?


Well, if I teach the dog that the word "sit" means put your butt on the ground, fast and straight, and I say "sit" and he does this.....what would a correction at this point establish? He did what I asked, did it well. I feel that corrections would erode the dog's happiness and willingness, and speed. (in example of the above scenario I mentioned with the TD who wanted me to correct with every command, even if it was perfectly executed)

I don't think they understand fairness per se, but I do think that compulsion given when they think they have done it right can, over time, destroy the dog's self confidence.


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## Vandal

I am not understanding your point Michelle. Why would you correct a dog who just complied with the command?


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## Vandal

Just to clarify because it seems that "picture" in people's heads is getting in the way again. Of COURSE you reward a dog with praise or whatever when you use compulsion. It would not be training if you didn't. I am frightened by what people have seen and are now picturing.

Edited to add: There should be no reason for a dog to lose "spirit" if this kind of work is done correctly. Quite the opposite actually. The dog should come up in drive .


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## JKlatsky

Really Interesting Discussion!

My 2 cents.

What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion? 

I have no problem with compulsion being used effectively. My problem with compulsion is that it requires a certain amount of emotional distance that not a lot of trainers have when working with their dogs. Too often compulsive methods become emotionally charged, which I think takes away a lot of their value in training. I always sort of think of it like the argument about spanking...You can spank you kid to illustrate a point or as a consequence...but raising your hand in anger changes it to abuse.

I also think that our "More is better" mentaility creates problems when using compulsion. I think you see this with some E-collar fans. My dog isn't doing it...Turn the dial up...Still No?...Turn the dial up. 

Also. If you're less than skilled at compulsion you can break your dog and create some serious issues. You stink with the clicker? You just don't go anywhere in your training...

Second question.

Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ? 

No. I think motivation is a test of the skill set of the trainer/handler. I think compulsion is the same. I've seen good trainers who have success with both methods- although I also do not think this is an either/or thing. Trainers who use more compulsive methods, also use release and rewards. And every clicker trainer I've known in SchH does go to corrections at some point. 

Maybe I don't understand this question. 

I don't see how motivational methods or compulsive methods can test my dog's drives. I would think their responses to the different methods can tell you more about the character of the dog. 

To my mind, it's about working the dog you have with the tools that are appropriate based on your knowledge and skill set. A compulsive trainer can work a softer dog. BUT, their timing has to be exemplary and they have to be very good and reading on the release. In other words the compulsive trainer will with a softer dog build in more motivation  A motivational trainer with a harder dog will probably go to corrections earlier than they might with a softer dog. However if you are firmly a compulsive or motivational trainer, you will probably favor dogs that are more suited to your training preference...And I'm not sure I think that there's anything wrong with that. At the risk of sounding a little Kumbaya- I think there are places and purposes for dogs that are at different places on a continuum of behavior.


Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?

Well. No. Not necessarily. Of course I think this gets into semantics about what is compulsion. 

Clearly the picture most people brought to mind was the dog that was being pronged or fried until it just happened to perform the correct behavior. I do not agree with this. 

However compulsive training I think encompasses a number of different things that people do and do not realize. I think alot of the physical manipulation that people do falls more under the category of compulsive training. Push the butt down to sit. Pull the leash to the floor to "encourage" or "guide" the puppy into a down. Sounds gentle. Certainly isn't barbaric. But is a compulsive method none the less to my mind. Opening my dog's mouth to place the dowel in, holding the mouth closed to physically reinforce a calm hold- also compulsive and the first phase in learning. I am physically making my dog do something that he doesn't not yet know how to do and I think that's OK. 

I've also seen people use collar corrections almost immediately with their formal obedience. I don't think this is necessarily wrong because when done properly it very clearly says This is NOT what I want you to do. Collar corrections also add in a degree of directionality. Consider teaching a dog to heel- you correct forward for lagging and back for forging. This physical imput gives clues to the dog to help them to learn what it is you want. However I will add a point. Most people I have seen who are successful with more compulsive methods do not start working puppies. They usually wait on obedience until the dog is older and more mentally mature and able to handle the pressue. I think part of the reason you see so many people going with motivational methods is because they want to start working their puppies right away.


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## SchHGSD

Vandal said:


> I am not understanding your point Michelle. Why would you correct a dog who just complied with the command?


I started out in the sport with a TD that wanted a correction for EVERY command, even if the dog executed it perfectly. 

So, Sit (BAM). Fuss (bam). All commands needed a correction, he felt it was vital to how the dog worked. The only time you did NOT correct when you said a command was during a trial.

I had issues with this, and did not consider it fair.


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## gagsd

SchHGSD said:


> I started out in the sport with a TD that wanted a correction for EVERY command, even if the dog executed it perfectly.
> 
> So, Sit (BAM). Fuss (bam). All commands needed a correction, he felt it was vital to how the dog worked. The only time you did NOT correct when you said a command was during a trial.
> 
> I had issues with this, and did not consider it fair.


My old club had quite a few members who advocated the same type of training. ALWAYS hit the stim button, every command, every time. The idea being that the dog would never screw up in trial. Didn't work though.


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## Vandal

See, the term compulsion is so linked to bad images, people can hardly get past it. It is like what the AR groups are doing to the word Breeder.


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## gagsd

It is hard (to not see "compulsion" as a bad word), even being aware that I am doing it.


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> Edited to add: There should be no reason for a dog to lose "spirit" if this kind of work is done correctly. Quite the opposite actually. The dog should come up in drive .


Anne, My name is Wayne or W.Oliver, and its OK to refer to me as such....no avoidance necessary here.

There is so much I have done wrong with my first dog trained in SchH, that lets not rule out the possibility of operater error. 

For sake of perspective, and with consideration to all the dogs you own/train/breed, I am curious to know if any of them are red & blacks? Even if you don't waste your time on high lines, lets say you have a litter that produces a soft working line dog, do you keep and train it or do you place it in a companion home?

Allow me to even be more direct, when working a soft dog with low drive in obedience, are you saying that compulsion will bring the drive up, rather than push the dog to avoidance? If accomplished correctly?

Wayne Oliver
......but you can call me Wayne, or you can call me W. Oliver, or you can call me Oliver, or you can call me what my mother used to call me, hole.


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## W.Oliver

JKlatsky said:


> My problem with compulsion is that it requires a certain amount of emotional distance that not a lot of trainers have when working with their dogs. Too often compulsive methods become emotionally charged, which I think takes away a lot of their value in training. I also think that our "More is better" mentaility creates problems when using compulsion. I think you see this with some E-collar fans. My dog isn't doing it...Turn the dial up...Still No?...Turn the dial up.


Excellent comment/point that I would like to take a step further, but before I do, allow me to reaffirm that verbal/physical praise, food, toys, compulsion with leash & pinch, and someday E-Stim, are all arrows I will have in my training quiver and employed as required by the dog I am training.

I totally agree with the observation made by JKlatsky, and will go further to say it has been my expereice that the heaviest compulsion hand I have witnessed can be seen from those who have a different relationship with the dog than I do.

I only have one dog to work, and that is the dog I work for good or bad. My priority is my relationship with that particular dog, and employing training methods to optimize the dogs abilities, and work through or around the dogs shortcomings.

Those that have many dogs, and usually kennel kept dogs, do not typically have the same disposition. Their motivation is not the bond with the individual dog, but more often than not, their motivation is a breeding program or the sake of competition itself, where in some cases the dog is nothing more than a piece of equipment, a means to an end.

How many of you know of the competitive trainer/handler that rehomes a dog that does not perform to expectation? I do not have an issue with this approach for them, it simply isn't a constituant of my paradigm.

Given that fundamental difference in the base relationship to the dog, the extremes in compulsion more readily come to the surface....in addition to the emotional types identified by JKlatsky, which those folks shouldn't even own a dog let alone train one.


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## lhczth

Vandal said:


> What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion?




I actually use a mix of both. There are certain exercises that I have never used compulsion because I have never had the need. There are others where I will use it in both the teaching and proofing phase. My first 2 dogs were taught with jerk and praise. My timing was awful and I always felt a level of emotions coming to the surface. I have matured. 



> Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ?




Even compulsion is a form of motivation, but if you are meaning using play/toys/food, yes. I don't think it is a better test of my dogs ability to deal with stress and pressure something needed in a working dog. 




> Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?


 
No. To clarify that a bit. I do a forced retrieve, but I would never do a FR on a dog that doesn't retrieve naturally. The dog has to have the innate drives and desire to do the work before I will use compulsion. Otherwise I do feel I am being unfair. This is probably why I don't train other people's dogs.


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## lhczth

Just like most training tools, compulsion in and of itself is not bad. It is the people using the tool or the method that determine whether something is good training Vs. unfair training.


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## Jason L

Lisa, how much of the retrieve does the dog need to know (hold? front?) before you start with the forced retrieve?


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## Vandal

> Anne, My name is Wayne or W.Oliver, and its OK to refer to me as such....no avoidance necessary here.


Boy, you are an expert at what motivates people eh? Wayne, there is no fear here to mention who you are. Seems most of the people here think I am talking specifically about them, even if I am not. In your case, yes, I was referring to what you said and since you were the only one using that term, I figured you would know that. However, I used it to make a general point, not to respond specifically to you. 
As for guessing people's motivations. I have a kennel but my motivation is not as you have stated. I know other people with kennels or more than one dog who are similar to me. 


I find a couple of things interesting in this thread. First, people seem to fear themselves and their ability to control their own emotions. Second, they use everything at their disposal to remove themselves from the equation, yet they claim they are doing that in order to not damage the "bond" they have with their dog. There is some contradiction in that thinking IMO. 
This I know. Emotions play a big role in dog training. My ability to "emote" is something I have always considered an asset, both as a handler and a helper. No, I am not talking about anger but in helper work, there is something similar used there that the dogs respond to. Introverts or people who can't show some emotion are never as successful at dog training, not the ones I have seen anyway. I have noticed and commented on the lack of praise nowadays and I am beginning to think it is all related.

You can't hide what you are really thinking from your dog, so, if you think you can and never deal with that aspect of yourself, you will have problems.


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## chruby

What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion? 

I have no fear of using compulsion but prefer to use positive methods. However, if I was teaching a puppy for instance to focus on me and using food rewards and it looked away, I would have no problem using a leash pop to let it know that it was not doing the right thing. After the leash pop and if I got focus of course there would be an immediate reward with food. Depending on the pup, some would be very compliant with a gentle pop and some may require a stronger pop.....that's where the handler's ability comes in as far as being able to determine just what is right level of correction for the dog. If you give such a hard pop that the dog cowers and then looks at you...obviously it's too much...


Second question.

Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ? 

Well, to me a dog with a strong work ethic as it relates to "working drives" as far as SchH would be a dog that has a lot of prey drive. That is number one. If a dog does not have that they are not cut out to work in the sport. 


Third

Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why? 

Bottom line is it wrong....probably not but I would not want a SchH dog that had to be taught using mostly compulsion. To me that would say the dog lacked drive and again..unless the handler does not care about the final picture with the dog I don't see any reason to use compulsion only in the teaching phase. 

I personally would much rather use motivational methods because I feel in the long run it makes a much better picture. I also would have no interest in working with a dog (especially in the SchH sport), that would not happily be taught with positive motivation such as a ball, tug or toy.


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## Fast

Vandal said:


> Isn't it up to the handler to understand what level of correction the dog can handle?


Yes but the levels don't have much to do with this issue in my training program.

I have two responses that I want, active and passive/static. I have to teach the dog what to do with each type of correction.


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## Fast

Lynn_P said:


> I think teaching using corrections isn't something a strong fair leader should use.


Life's not fair. Raising a dog or a child to believe so is just setting them up for a big fall when they get in the real world.


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## Samba

Good thread.

Fear of Correction?
I used to have a lot of fear of it. I saw fallout that I didn’t like when used by some folks. I was afraid I didn’t know how to use it properly. I worried about my timing. I was concerned about my relationship with the dog. I think my motivation for my fear was honest and came from a good place in my regard for the dog. 
After some experience, I am not afraid of it because I am pretty sure I will not cause the things I was worried about now. 
I still like motivational methods too. I use both in training. Some people build the have to first and then add want to and others do it in the other order. I have seen both work very well together. I find the dogs have a lot of fun with some of the motivational work and I enjoy that part. At times, I have had the motivation actually get in the way of learning so that takes some consideration. 

Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ?
I don’t think it is a better test necessarily. I have some highly motivated dogs in obedience. Woohoo… what they will do for food or prey. I am pretty sure that does not show me the entire picture of the dog as a working animal. 
I am working with a young dog who is not super motivated in obed for food or prey toys. I really believe he is a better overall working animal than the ones I referred to above. With compulsion this particular dog comes up in drive and overall enjoyment of the activity. I find this much more instructive as to his working temperament and ability than his response to the “little motivators” I might offer. 

Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why? 

I don’t think it is wrong to teach a dog a command or behavior using compulsion. I have seen this work quite well and for sure the dogs involved did not lack in drive or workability. 
I would add that much of what I am using as compulsion many would perhaps not recognize that I was compulsing the dog. It does not have to mean heavy handed jerks all about the place at all. I do find the dog seems to have a different understanding or manner when being trained with compulsion. I have found this message and relationship very useful.
I have seen compulsive methods used along with praise and a bit of play to create lovely working and top winning performances in obedience by happily working dogs. The relationship of the trainer and dog was paramount in this.


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## Fast

Good topic Anne!

I think that the problem many people have with compulsion is an image thing. Compulsion, well used, is invisible. People see it all the time and mistake it for a happy clicker trained dog. And what is that handler to say? He can't just tell everyone "No I kick my dogs butt quite often and liberally". He sort of has to play into the charade and people go off feeling good about that happy dog that they saw and forget about it.But when they see compulsion poorly used it's like a tattoo on their brain. They never forget it and they tell everyone in earshot about the crazy compulsion they saw.


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## Fast

Vandal said:


> Similar to what some do in protection where defense/pressure is channeled into prey or how people are using the ball in the arm pit and the e-collar.



How do you see the arm pit and e-collar the same as channeling pressure into prey?


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## Samba

Fast


> Compulsion, well used, is invisible. People see it all the time and mistake it for a happy clicker trained dog.


I find this also. It is not necessarily a flagrant act easily recognized as compulsion. This is where it is difficult to define exactly what people are talking about. I think good compulsion techniques are often not detected as such.


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## Ruthie

Interesting topic, Anne. JKlatsky, I liked your response. I have often thought of corrections as similar to spanking. Both are emotionally charged subjects, both methods are abused, both are necessary (IMO, please don't turn this into a debate about spanking, it is just an observation.)

Before answering the questions, I would like to comment on the role of compulsion in general in order to make my responses shorter. I have mentioned before that I view any training method as a form of communication to the dog. As such, I believe that human communication theory is applicable. In summary, the best communicators are those who...

Shape their message to the needs of the audience
Have respect for the audience
Read both verbal and non-verbal cues of the audience
Express ideas clearly
Are confident, relaxed, and controlled
Preserve the relationship
We can all think of people in our lives who are good and bad examples of each of these points enough to illustrate them. In the case of dog training, my goals are to display these attributes in the methods I use to communicate with my dog.

In light of this philosophy, here are my answers to the questions.




> What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion?


 

I do not have a fear of compulsion as defined in this post. I would argue that fairly executed corrections are a form of motivation. 




> Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ?


 
I don't believe that the method tests the dog's drives. His performance and even the reaction to the method may. Maybe that is just semantics. The skill of reading non-verbal cues or "reading" the dog in various situations should tell you what the dog's drives are then you use that information to shape your communication style or training methods.




> Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?


 

Again, maybe just semantics, but as written, yes. The teaching phase for me is purely non-physical correction until the dog understands the command or the task I ask him to do. Negative verbal cues are enough. When proofing the task or command I introduce compulsion as a way to set a boundary, thus making the communication clear and removing the stress for the dog. For a biddable dog, unclear boundaries are stressful.




> Do animals understand fairness? Oh my, I can just keep on asking the questions, this is the easy part. lol


 
Not to the level that people do, but they do understand the "rules" as conditioning defines. When I correct my dog for something that was previously allowed, it is read as "not fair" from the perspective that there was previously no negative response given for the same behavior. Once the result has been established it is no longer "unfair". This is why it is important for the dog to first understand what is being asked before a physical correction is introduced. The negative verbal response sets the boundary enough that when the correction is introduced it is "fair".


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## W.Oliver

I agree, this is a great thread, and perfectly timed for me personally. 

Anne, Can we broaden the compulsion discussion to include E-Stim? Samba and Chris have given me plenty to think about over the past several weeks. Along those lines, I had an opportunity to attend a helper seminar at a regional training event. I was impressed at how many folks employed E-Stim….in my sheltered training, I had not had that kind of exposure, and was struck by how prevalent it is….actually on every dog but two….which came with me. I would like to learn how to employ this tool, and I am considering employing it with my current dog. I know this may read like I am a lemming…but thoughts/comments?


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## Ruthie

You do kind of look like a lemming...

I also am interested in learning more about e-stim since I read about the study that showed that it caused the least amount of stress on the dog. Maybe you should start a new post though, so it will be easier to reference later.


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## holland

The eh thing is really annoying If it is poking fun at Canadians -we don't write ehs into things-As for introverts not being successful at dog training who cares?? Seriously for me it is the time I spend with my dog and we have a relationship Nope we're not successful -I don't hide what I feel from my dog she feels what I feel-she knows--I don't hide who I am either -and of course you weren't speaking to me


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## sagelfn

Why is it called compulsion? When I hear compulsion I think of people hanging their dogs or choking them out, not someone giving a leash correction.

Sorry for the stupid question


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## jesusica

Since the board likes to log me out after I click submit I'm going with the really condensed version of my initial reply.



Fast said:


> Good topic Anne!
> 
> I think that the problem many people have with compulsion is an image thing. Compulsion, well used, is invisible. People see it all the time and mistake it for a happy clicker trained dog. And what is that handler to say? He can't just tell everyone "No I kick my dogs butt quite often and liberally". He sort of has to play into the charade and *people go off feeling good about that happy dog that they saw and forget about it.But when they see compulsion poorly used it's like a tattoo on their brain. They never forget it * and they tell everyone in earshot about the crazy compulsion they saw.


First of all, am I the only one who finds the humor in the bolded words given the topic of discussion?

Secondly, words out of my mouth, you took.

The common thread in every dog whose work I have admired and witnessed training methods or inquired into the methods has been the four letter word of schutzhund: c-o-m-p-u-l-s-i-o-n

Signed,
Liberal user of compulsion, and her little dog too, who coincidentally is curled up on the couch next to her (oops, debunked myth 476982 about compulsion)

***retreats back to lurkdom/not visiting the board for extended periods of time***


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## Vandal

I don't think that is a dumb question but I can't really give you a history of how that term came to be used. Could be the result of a translation from German. I can't remember when it started to be called that but when I started, using a collar and leash was just "dog training".


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> ......when I started, using a collar and leash was just "dog training".


Anne, back when you started, didn't you have to first domesticate a wolf by luring in near the camp fire?:rofl:


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## lhczth

W.Oliver said:


> Anne, Can we broaden the compulsion discussion to include E-Stim? Samba and Chris have given me plenty to think about over the past several weeks. Along those lines, I had an opportunity to attend a helper seminar at a regional training event. I was impressed at how many folks employed E-Stim….in my sheltered training, I had not had that kind of exposure, and was struck by how prevalent it is….actually on every dog but two….which came with me. I would like to learn how to employ this tool, and I am considering employing it with my current dog. I know this may read like I am a lemming…but thoughts/comments?


Anne started a new thread for this discussion. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...nic-shock-collars-compulsion.html#post1886280


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## G-burg

Vandal said:


> This type of training requires more feel for the dog, more self discipline and more skill.
> 
> So, I have three questions.
> 
> What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion?
> 
> Second question.
> 
> Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ?
> 
> Third
> 
> Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?


I can't say I have a fear of it, especially if it's done correctly.. And to be honest I've only see modified versions of it.. Never seen or been taught true compulsion training. I guess given the fact that I've only been training in SchH for about 5 years.. Even the first club/trainer I started with switched from all compulsion training to more motivational techniques. Even the training facility I work at that teach's pet obedience, starts with food luring and rewarding/praising for most commands.. Except for the dogs that are either too stressed or have no food drive.. Then it's basically putting that dog in the position and praising.. When this facility started out back in the day, it was also all compulsion training.

Is motivation training a better test.. I guess that depends on the dog.. Because with any training there is always stress/pressure.. either from the handler or the environment.. and there may/will come a point in the training where the dog tests the handler? And the handler will then have to up the ante so to say if they want a reliable dog and or make it clear to the dog it must do what he/she is asking..

I don't think it's wrong.. If the handler knows what they are doing, and has had success in training a dog(s) with straight compulsion.. I will say the end results will depend on the dogs genetic makeup.. Not every dog that is taught with compulsion is gonna look happy, up beat and quick in the work.. they may be correct in their positions/commands, but dull and flat.

I also don't instantly associate compulsion with beating a dog down or overly aggressive handling.. I guess like I said earlier I've been somewhat exposed to it.. Now granted I have seen those trainers/individuals that are down right abusive, the dog never knows when they are correct or never wins, and they go overboard on the corrections/compulsion.. 

My thoughts anyway!!


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## lesslis

Again, great topic and perfect timing for me. 

Talked to a trainer recently who employs the "compulsive" methods, no food or toy motivation, only quiet praise. He believes in "CORRECT TO ELIMINATE CORRECTIONS".
After long discussion and with some (much) hesitation, and a ready to pounce stance, I handed him the leash to my dog, (I know, but knew my dog would survive) As the dog pulled ahead he corrected with a pop, my dog stopped, all four legs in a "what was that" type location. This happened about 3 times before the dog was healing like a pro with him. I really think the sound of the collar is what startled me and the dog most. The correction itself was not over the top. Seen much worse. 
Compared to most of you I have much to learn and the confusion in dog training methods is overwhelming. Why can't all methods be used depending on the situation?


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## Lynn_P

Fast said:


> Life's not fair. Raising a dog or a child to believe so is just setting them up for a big fall when they get in the real world.


 
Fast, are you saying that "raising" and "training" are the same thing? Just curious, as you are right ~ child and/or dog need to learn that there are consequences for certain unwanted behaviors.


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## Sarah'sSita

Very good discussion. My new dog is now 10 months old. He is out of Jabina lines on the sire side (actuall related to Anne's Jabina Haig) and Carlo vom Hilsblick on the dam's side. I mention this as I have heard and seen some of these dogs being trained and worked. They are not Malis! He is a training challenge for me for sure. At this point, at 10 months he is learning through motivational techniques. I introduced "leash pressure" quite young. There he learned how to turn off the pressure, but not in context of a correction, just leash pressure on alks, etc. Leash corrections do NOT phase him in term sof loss of attitude or drive at all. He gives me a look of discomfort, yet most of the time he knows how to turn it off. Leash pressure with a pinch is a form of compulsion for me. For example i am teaching him to move his rear to achieve correct heel position. I apply leash pressure very subtley until he adjusts by moving his rear legs into correct position. I mark and praise or reward. When he adjusts the pressure is relieved BY HIM. In this example I am using leash pressure to guide and teach him the desired position. There is no "no" followed by the leash pressure. My idea is to make it black white in a calm manner. 

I am really not skilled enough to teach with compulsion exclusively.
A correction, well applied should be short, quick and surprising so the dog learns. Nothing annoys me more than many meaningless pops. SOmetimes I think people are worried about letting their dog make a mistake and have consequences. If my dog repeatedly is not getting it right, I need to back-up and assess the situation. Does my dog understand the behavior.

My fear is that improper compulsion will only confuse my dog more.
I prefer motivational methods because if a dog is so uncomfortable, training is no longer joyful for me or my dog. Compulsion if done correctly should not be required very often.

For example, I had been nagging with "pops" my dog Nandi with his inattentive heeling with no impact. A schH 1 dog, he knew the position, etc. My training partner had me work on heeling while a frisbee game was going on (my dog goes crazy over balls and frisbees). We heeled towrd the game and Nandi decided to leave my side to check it out. I meediately stepped out of the line of heeling, said "NO!" and gave a series of sharp short corrections. He yipped (not pain, but total and complete surprise. It was over I calmly askeed him to heel and he beautifully and quickly gave me wonderful heeling. i REWARDED HIM PROFUSELY WITH PRAISE AND PLAY. His heeling has improved 100% and it is a rare day when I have had to correct him for inattentuive heeling. I can heel him with socer balls and tennis balls flying. I would NOT have gotten this result by motivational methods. It has brought out more joy and drive in him, such that he builds IN DRIVE AS THE ROUTINE GOES ON.


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## gagsd

I think we see more "joy and drive" (to use your term Sarah) when our dogs know what we want. If you have a dog who wants to please you, and you do not show them how to achieve that and then* tell* them they achieved it, your dog will always lack something in his affect. (IMO)

Anne, your original post talked about dogs who required compulsion to learn (at least that is my interpretation of what you wrote.) Do you think breeding on those bloodlines is a good idea? In other words, are they bringing something to the breed that is important?


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## Vandal

Now I will answer my own questions. 

_"What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion?"_ 

I have no fear of it but over the years, I have had to learn when is the right time to train using this technique. You don't train when you are tired, in a bad mood, stressed, or ever, if you are thinking your dog can make any of those things better by performing well. That's true with any type of training but maybe more so when you are applying corrections.


_Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ? _


I think it tests certain traits but not all. It certainly tests drive and the dog's ability to focus, especially in small pups. The difference in how some pups work compared to others can be like night and day based on the pup's genetics. I do not use corrections on small pups because they do not understand that IMO. As for older dogs, corrections, and how a dog deals with them, can say quite a bit about the dog. Some dogs take that correction and immediately start looking to comply , bringing more drive without any sign of hectic behaviors or stress. Others will start to shut down and need more encouragement to work their way out of that stress. Some, immediately become resistant and will start to fight with you and so on. Just about all the behaviors you see when you do this, you will also see in the other phases. So, it can tell you a great deal about a dog and actually help you understand how to work the dog elsewhere.


_Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?_

No, it is not wrong and it is not unfair. The thing that seems to be misunderstood or is that picture that people have, is that "compulsion" is simply yanking a dog until they do the desired behavior. All of this is done with little to no concern for the behavior of the handler. Yes, I realize that large numbers of people do that, but, fifty thousand wrongs just doesn't make it the right way . It seems, mostly, people are applying corrections when they are fed up or angry and that is when the people watching get that tattoo on their brains. 

In reality, at least the way I do it anyway, training this way involves a great deal of praise and encouragement, especially in the beginning stages .....along with those dreaded pops on the collar. The pops are like road blocks that tell the dog, "don't go there" while the encouragement and praise tell the dog where to get safety/enjoyment and relieve any discomfort or stress they may be feeling. You are channeling the stress into the attraction, which the way I do it anyway, is ME. Others will channel the stress into a ball etc. 

If you make stress where their should be relief, THAT is what is "unfair". The ability to remain calm and composed while using the leash, while at the same time providing the needed encouragement, and an instant later, genuine and enthusiastic praise for "getting it right", is a huge part of this kind of training. I can't think of more than a few dogs I have had to "correct" much beyond the first couple of sessions and that is the aim. If you are still correcting a dog after a few sessions, in 99 % of the cases, something is not being done right . It also seems to matter what you train first, as those exercises where the dog is moving , like heeling, makes it easier for the dog to understand and also helps to channel/relieve stress at the same time. 

In my experience, this kind of work sets the tone for the rest of the what the dog learns and because of that, corrections become a rare occurrence and are usually limited to just a little shake of the collar to remind the dog. When corrections bring out behaviors other than fast and happy compliance, something is wrong with what the handler is doing or not doing. The corrections should not go beyond what the dog is capable of dealing with. If you correct too hard , there can be residual behaviors from the dog. That means for example, if you raise your voice and say down and then correct the dog too hard, the dog will down but kind of crawl for a few seconds. That is when it is clear there is too much power in your correction or your voice. You are putting a pound into a 12 ounce container at that point and it spills out of the dog. That requires an ajustment from the handler but many times, I see people correcting behaviors that THEY created , like correcting the dog for crawling after the down which results in an overly stressed dog.

It is not the method, it is the way it is applied that causes the problems. The happiness you are looking for does not come just from the relief of stress, it comes from the handler's genuine and enthusiastic praise. Mostly, what I have seen, is that the emotions of the handler, ( worry, trepidation, anger, etc), are very disturbing to a dog during this type of training and certainly work against the desired result. The stress makes it easier for some handlers to get angry and in others, the dog can see the insecurity, which in turn, creates insecurity in the dog. None of these are things the dog should see in the people, especially after a correction. The correction, as Jklatsky mentioned, ( good post), has to be emotionally distant but on the other side of that, the praise for complying has to be enthusiastic and genuine. This is so the dog knows there is a safe/fun place to be in sharp contrast to the place where the stress/discomfort is. When you have an angry handler and corrections at the same time, the dog cannot find safety and then you are simply teaching learned helplessness where the dog just gives up, hangs his head and goes thru the motions.
What I have noticed over the years, is that people have a very hard time controlling their emotions when they are performing even the slightest of "violent" behaviors to another living thing. It is easy for people to get emotionally caught up in it. When people want something to end and get stressed or anxious, the chance that they will also get angry increases. This is especially true if the dog doesn't "help them" get out of the discomfort they are feeing by complying. When there is anger and the voice is raised and the tension increases, it has the effect of making the dog "too stressed" and therefore less willing or able to comply. There is no "light at the end of the tunnel" for the dog to look to. Because, IMO, the results are much better when you allow yourself to "emote" when the dog does it right, a level of self discipline is absolutely necessary to keep the bad emotions in check, while a second later, displaying the good ones. That is not always easy for certain people and I know from experience how much discipline it takes to be able to turn one on, while leaving the other side of it off.

All training requires a great deal of self discipline but in this case, maybe more. For many people, motivation is absolutely the best route. Not simply because the dog responds to it but because THEY do. I think this is also why some, who do not like the prong or fear it, are much more comfortable with an e-collar, even though an e-collar used wrong, creates big problems as well. There is no "violence" in the act of pushing a button and therefore, it is less likely to affect a person's mood. You can set the level of correction to a clearly marked number on a dial and that aspect is better controlled as well. It has the effect of taking these other potential problems out of the equation . The e-collar, and the clicker as well, are not as "personal".


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## lhczth

Excellent post, Anne.


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## Fast

Lynn_P said:


> Fast, are you saying that "raising" and "training" are the same thing?


Yes, I think they are the same. But we have to use different words in polite society. Like you can't put a child in a "cage", you have to put them in a "playpen". :crazy:


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## cliffson1

Very good post Anne....really hits on a lot of cogent points. That post should be read 3 times by a person new to training their dog,IMO.


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## W.Oliver

cliffson1 said:


> Very good post Anne....really hits on a lot of cogent points. That post should be read 3 times by a person new to training their dog,IMO.


****, I've read it four times and reading it again.


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## Joker

I didn't have time to go through this entire thread but last years Nationals this was prolly my favorite obedience routine the dog was clearly working under pressure and Chico did a excellent job of showing the character of the dog in the routine. www.chicostanford.com/AV-video-10.htm
I wish I were as good a obedience trainer as Chico as Ann mentioned making this kind of training takes understanding the dog timing lotso skill. I tried but had to give up I was screwing up my dog and just making a mess Ive seen it and understand it but...............


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## Lynn_P

I agree with the rest EXCELLENT post Anne. I also have read it a couple of times.


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## holland

I wish I had a video of a dog in my class heeling. When I watch him it just makes me smile. He has awesome focus wags his tail the entire time and he shows strength of character too he can handle a correction, like when his handler accidentally stepped on him which might not seem like much of a correction but he's a little guy and his tale just kept wagging-he'll never be at the GSD nationals though its not schutzhund and Michael is a beagle


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## Catu

Ouch, I arrived late to this thread... How did I missed it? Too late to answer the original questions, because I've read them and want it or not, my opinion is already influenced by them.

A few months ago in a seminar I was showing my problem with my dog doing her kangaroo act at heeling. The instructor asked me if I had used a prong on her and how she reacted to it. I said Yes, but Diabla was too sensitive to it and I had stopped using it, but it still was on my bag and I was willing to try if she showed me how to use it.
After she saw me working my dog her answer was "your dog is not sensitive, she is smart. Your dog has trained you, you put the collar on, she looks flat and sad, you remove the collar, she is happy again" Then she taught me to correct with the prong not only the jumping, but the flatness and give huge praises with the correct picture I wanted. The moment I learnt how to use the prong, that I was not damaging the bond with my dog and that my dog was a lot harder than I thought I felt comfortable using it the magic started. It is what Anne describes, not only the method affect the dog and the training, but how we feel about it does it too, and a lot.

Now another story that has to be with "Fairness"
A few years ago, when "clicker training" was just starting to be used around here a friend decided to train his dog using only positive reward. No compulsion AT ALL, not a pop on the collar, not even a NO in Schutzhund, it did it mostly as an experiment and to enforce a point with other trainers to did not believe in using rewards for training. Yes... he is quite prone to take things to the extremes. He was doing good, the dog got her BH.
Then my friend went with her dog to a Balabanov seminar and showed her training and some of the problems he had with her and how he trained without any kind of compulsion with her. After seeing them work together Balabanov told him he was not only being unfair to the dog, but it was borderline cruel. The dog was good, great, only wanted to please, was desperate to please, but she got no feedback on what her handler wanted of her, she tried and tried behaviors, hoping one would trigger the reward (and the relief) but got nothing, not a clue, not even a "no reward" marking. The level of stress of that dog, at the end of a training session were higher than if she received corrections. I think it happens a lot and too often on pets. Mot of us are not as extreme as my friend and his "experiment" but are culprit of causing unnecessary stress on our dogs at some point believing that the praise and the reward are the only (or best) way of communication.


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## W.Oliver

Very good post, and certainly provides more for me to reflect on with my dog.


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## Samba

Only positive markers withhold a great deal of useful information from the dog. I can't do it that way because it seems almost like a sick guessing game for the dog after awhile.

Dogs are so unique in their ability to understand and work with us that a lot of methods can be used to give them information and get them to the behavioral goal quickly.


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## Samba

I was thinking about compulsion tonight and had the thought that the relief of pressure can have a very positive effect on a dog. The ability to control and cause the relief from pressure can create a lot of confidence in a dog also, IMO.


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## Vandal

> The ability to control and cause the relief from pressure can create a lot of confidence in a dog also, IMO.


It is the same in protection but people make the same mistakes there as they do in obedience. They ask the dogs to endure the pressure vs teach them how to control it.


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## Samba

I am not so good at the protection training part. Have seen what seemed like pressure, pressure, pressure in protection with little or no acknowledgement of the dog's effort. On the other hand I have seen too little presented to the dog also. Perhaps that is because it was not understood how to build the dog in the pressure situation.

It takes someone like Anne or Celeste M. to remind me how well the compulsion aspect can work in obedience. Went and tried some compulsion work with my young dog and had to tone it down. Not because he was avoiding but rather because he got too high in drive and was bouncing and prancing like a maniac. I seem to get more "dedication" to the activity with this than when I do mostly mark and reward.


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## G-burg

I have a question to those who have trained with compulsion successfully..

Once the dog has been taught a command, let's say heeling or the forced retrieve.. Do you have to continue to correct the dog every session? When do you bring in the toy or the an object to relieve the stress?

For instance... What happens if the dog lags or loses his enthusiasm.. With each session.. Do you continue to correct the dog into the position? Was the compulsion or training not done correctly in the first place? Does it depend on the dogs personality?

What about the out of motions? The dog becomes slow or slower or doesn't lock up on the stand?

Or the dog stops making an effort? Almost like it's waiting for the correction to happen before it does the command?

I've been watching some compulsion training lately and thinking back to some I've seen in the past, hence the questions. It seems it's the same scenario each time these people come out on the training field..


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## Uniballer

G-burg said:


> Do you have to continue to correct the dog every session?


No. But you need to prevent backsliding.



> When do you bring in the toy or the an object to relieve the stress?


As soon as he understands how to handle the rewards without showing problem behavior. The same with other praise, and enthusiasm (e.g. body language) before the command. You want the dog to be learning, and you need to eliminate anything that interferes, and add anything that helps.



> ...
> Or the dog stops making an effort? Almost like it's waiting for the correction to happen before it does the command?
> 
> I've been watching some compulsion training lately and thinking back to some I've seen in the past, hence the questions. It seems it's the same scenario each time these people come out on the training field..


This sounds like they are correcting by rote without observing the effect on the dog and adjusting accordingly. And the timing is probably not right.


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## G-burg

Thanks Uniballer!

I'm trying to understand all this better.. As I've not seen anyone that does compulsion training correctly.. They claim they know what there doing.. but I don't see where the dogs are any better..

I know it would help if I see first hand someone who actually knows what there doing..


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## lhczth

I do a forced retrieve. Once finished it would be extremely rare that I would have to use any type of physical correction again. I then use toys, food and praise to reward and to increase speed. I actually use food during, too, to relieve stress and reward the dog. . Even my first two dogs that were trained totally through compulsion (jerk and praise) didn't get corrected all the time. If done right the dog understands what the handler wants fairly quickly. If the people you are watching are having to correct the dogs all the time then they are doing something wrong.


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## Vandal

I am currently writing a book in response to Leesa 
Before I publish it to this thread I want to ask Leesa a couple of questions.

Which exercise is being trained where you seeing the problems? Heeling? I mean where do you see it done wrong the most? Are these situations where the dog has been trained this way for weeks or months or where the dog is just learning ?


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## hudak004

> Once the dog has been taught a command, let's say heeling or the forced retrieve.. Do you have to continue to correct the dog every session?


If you are constantly correcting the dog every session than IMO you are not correctly using compulsion, and it is not clear to the dog, and you need to stop and figure out why it's not clear. However that doesn't mean that once something is initially compulsionized that you never have to reinforce the point..dogs aren't machines and are bound to slip up at some point, so you must always be prepared to correct things consistently when appropriate. 



> When do you bring in the toy or the an object to relieve the stress?


When I first introduce compulsion for any behaviour, the toy is presented immediately after the correction is given and consequently the correct behaviour is performed. (and this is only after the dog has been taught the behavior in drive in most instances) Once the dog understands the correction, and how to avoid it, and depending on the dog and their ability to withstand the pressure, the toy is not given after every correction. 



> For instance... What happens if the dog lags or loses his enthusiasm.. With each session.. Do you continue to correct the dog into the position? Was the compulsion or training not done correctly in the first place? Does it depend on the dogs personality?


If the dog is losing enthusiasum, then IMO the compulsion is not being used correctly. Ive seen dogs of all temperment, soft or strong, be trained with compulsion succesfully. What's most important is the handlers ability to read the dog. Even with the same general principle of using compulsion, there are always variables depending on the dog; Time that correction is introduced, Level of correction, level and frequency of reward, duration of session, drive level of the dog when correction is given, and tons more. Its up to the handler to adjust the variables for the dog. That said, there are just some dogs who can't withstand the pressure and go into avoidance, even if all the variables are adjusted.. but I think this is very rare, and even in that case one could argue that the variables are just not aligned right for the dog. But Ive never seen a GOOD dog not be able to be trained successfully using compulsion, in fact, from what Ive seen, compulsion makes good obedience, even better, so long as the balance of drive and compulsion is balanced...which also, depends on the dog.


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## Liesje

I am not Leesa but can I give one? I'm watching lot of forced retrieves lately (in person) and the dogs don't seem to really understand the entire behavior chain. Some of the things I'm seeing are dogs that are very slow, refused to pick up the dumbbell, drop the dumbbell, showing avoidance throughout the retrieve, and/or not holding the dumbbell well (chewing or it kind of waves side to side b/c the grip is not good). In each of these things it looks to me like the dog just plain doesn't get what the handler wants from them, and so far each dog/handler team I see trying it this way are having to go back and "fix" multiple issues. Some of these are dogs just learning but others are dogs that have been doing it for months or even titled. A common thread is that the dog is doing well (or has been doing well for some time) and then a new "issue" suddenly crops up, a lot of inconsistency and extremes like the dog being perfect and then the next week refusing. I would really love to see a really nice forced retrieve (I have nothing against the method).


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## Vandal

Lies, 
When you are watching, do you mostly concentrate on the dog or do you take into consideration what the handler is doing? Meaning, their demeanor, how calm or consistent they are etc?


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## Liesje

Both...I think in some cases, the training is rushed. In other cases, the handler is inexperienced and sending mixed signals. Maybe in some the method is just not right for the dog. I just wish I could see it done really well by someone that really knows it. I think what I'm seeing is not an issue with the method itself, but it's not really instilling a lot of confidence in me, it seems too easy to mess it up or create conflict with the dog where there it doesn't need to be. I think too many people are doing it because they are impatient and don't think their dog can learn it any other way. To me it's not even that the dog is being forced but that the dog just isn't understanding. That always bothers me no matter what the method, seeing a dog really confused.


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## hudak004

When you see it done right, the dog understands relatively quickly

ETA: but it can NOT be rushed... and you have to watch the dog to tell when to move to the next step.. when I say relatively quickly, I don't mean overnight.


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## G-burg

Vandal said:


> I am currently writing a book in response to Leesa
> Before I publish it to this thread I want to ask Leesa a couple of questions.
> 
> Which exercise is being trained where you seeing the problems? Heeling? I mean where do you see it done wrong the most? Are these situations where the dog has been trained this way for weeks or months or where the dog is just learning ?


In the heeling... Where the dog comes out it might be focused and correct for a few paces then the dog starts lagging, looking around, the dog gets corrected, you may get a couple more steps with focus, then the dog drops off again, starts looking around, dog gets corrected, dog starts lagging, will become hesitant, dog gets corrected, then you get a few more steps with focus and correct position..

Fronts, where the dog won't come in close or look up at the handler.. 

Out of motions are slow and the more times they do it and the dog gets corrected the slower they get.. Always taking steps on the stand.. Sometimes slow finishes.. Occasionally these dogs will get it right on the third or fourth try.. 

I've also seen where the dog basically doesn't even try.. It's like the dog it waiting for the handler to put them in the correct position.. Or to see if something is gonna happen to them to make them do what is being asked..

These are older dogs and it's been going on for at least 6 months or more. And it's the same scenario over and over and over and over.. Compulsion using the prong collar, e-collar, etc...

Rewards are with a ball, can't say as I really hear "much" verbal praise tho.. And that could be the reason.. The dog never knows when it's really correct!!


Thanks also Kristi! I do understand too that dogs are not robots.. They are gonna make mistakes.. but it shouldn't happen with almost every training session..


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## Vandal

Yes, because what the handler is doing REALLY matters. I think I said that in an earlier post. I also think people start down that path and then get worried and try to change back or they try to mix the two methods and that leaves the dog in the "gray" vs making things very black and white. The handler's emotions are super important but trying to get that in the heads of the people is MUCH harder than training the dogs. I said that also in that long post earlier in this thread. The handler has to always show the dog where to get out of the stress and make sure that place is always, ( consistently), stress free. The problem is when the handler is upset, then NO place feels safe to the dog, even if the corrections stop. 
This is where and maybe why you, and I think Leesa, are seeing these behaviors. Also, there is a period where the dog can look a bit unsure of things and this requires the handler to keep going and keep showing the dog where the safe place is. People start to want to quit because THEY are stressed by the dog's behavior and then you see problems also.


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## G-burg

> I would really love to see a really nice forced retrieve (I have nothing against the method).


Sounds like Lisa has one!!


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## lhczth

http://www.zutreuenhanden.com/Video/8308NikeRetrieve.wmv This is a finished, though rusty, dog who had a forced retrieve. I had a club member that wanted to see her. She hadn't done a formal retrieve in a couple of years.


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## lhczth

A place where I have never found force to work is in the front position. If anything force seems to make the dog want to stay back even farther.


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## lhczth

Vandal said:


> This is where and maybe why you, and I think Leesa, are seeing these behaviors. Also, there is a period where the dog can look a bit unsure of things and this requires the handler to keep going and keep showing the dog where the safe place is. People start to want to quit because THEY are stressed by the dog's behavior and then you see problems also.


 
I think this is why many people have someone else do the forced retrieve. They don't have the temperament to do it themselves. Compulsion must be black and white. When emotions become involved, such as frustration or anger, things start to become a bit gray to the dog and they become confused.


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## Vandal

I think most lack the skill to interact with their dog in the way this method requires. 
Let's take heeling for example, the handler MUST be an attraction. They call movies "coming attractions" , that’s because people go to look at the attraction and the attraction must hold their attention for about two hours. Well, if you want your dog to look at you in heeling and be enthusiastic about it, you have to BE one and you have to be demonstrative enough to let the dog know you LIKE IT when he does it right. So many people are just dead there next to their dog. I wouldn't look at them either, in fact, if I see someone handling their dog like that, I will stop watching because it upsets me. When you see someone handling a dog and putting that happy attitude and using enthusiastic praise, it is hard for the PEOPLE to not watch. It is fun to watch that going on. So, if we want to look because of that, the dogs do too. 
The level of correction matters when you teach the out of motion exercises. The mistake is when people try to train this before the dog knows sit or down. Because they have that leash and they can make the dog do it, they start that exercise too soon and that's where you see the real messes taking place. When I am done heeling, my dog knows sit and he knows the sit is coming when I take a slightly larger step with my left leg as I come to a stop. Once that is set in the dog in heeling, I can move on to the SOM. Do I correct the dog into the sit? Nope, he already knows it and I will cue him a little to help him see what I want. Recall is the same. I use the leash to guide him but use the other side of it, (praise, enthusiasm), for the speed. I do not think you can really make speed with compulsion .


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## Vandal

Oh, and I don't really use corrections to teach the sit in the heeling. I use my hand under the chin to guide the dog into the sit when I am first teaching the heeling. This way, I can control how the dog sits, meaning straight, and I am not creating more stress than the dog can handle. They pick up on the sit really fast when you do it that way and then once they know it, I may correct them for speed. Having said that, I just contradicted my last sentence in the previous post...lol... but I was talking about the recall. So, it matters how you use it for speed and where.


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## G-burg

> I think most lack the skill to interact with their dog in the way this method requires.


Thanks Anne! I think that really sums it up! And thinking about it more I do see that in the people I have watched.. 

One of the helpers in our group just got back from Germany and we were discussing compulsion training over lunch.. Apparently it is used over there quiet a lot.. But the one thing he did say and I think Lisa mentioned this and others.. was it is definitely black and white when they train.. The dog knows when he is right or wrong.. No kinda, maybe's!!


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## lhczth

> was it is definitely black and white when they train.. The dog knows when he is right or wrong.. No kinda, maybe's!!


I think this applies to all types of training. Not just when using compulsion.


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## Liesje

True, I guess it really has nothing to do with compulsion or forced retrieves, it's just the context I keep seeing it as of late.


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## Ruthie

lhczth said:


> I think this applies to all types of training. Not just when using compulsion.


I agree. It also isn't a really easy thing to do. That is probably why so many of us suck at it.


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## Jason L

Liesje said:


> Both...I think in some cases, the training is rushed. In other cases, the handler is inexperienced and sending mixed signals. Maybe in some the method is just not right for the dog. I just wish I could see it done really well by someone that really knows it. I think what I'm seeing is not an issue with the method itself, but it's not really instilling a lot of confidence in me, it seems too easy to mess it up or create conflict with the dog where there it doesn't need to be. I think too many people are doing it because they are impatient and don't think their dog can learn it any other way. To me it's not even that the dog is being forced but that the dog just isn't understanding. That always bothers me no matter what the method, seeing a dog really confused.


Lies, the people you are watching - how are they doing the forced retrieve?Toe pinch, electric? Do they put the dogs on a table with start with a dowel or do they go to ground and use dumbbell?


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## Jason L

hudak004 said:


> When you see it done right, the dog understands relatively quickly
> 
> ETA: but it can NOT be rushed... and you have to watch the dog to tell when to move to the next step.. when I say relatively quickly, I don't mean overnight.


I'm helping a whole bunch of experienced people who need an extra pair of hands do forced retrieve right now . That's what I have observed so far. When done correctly by both the handler and the "helper" _and if the dog is clear headed enough_, understanding happens REALLY fast. One interesting thing I've observed is sometimes not supplying enough force/pressure on the dog is actually doing the dog a disservice when doing forced retrieve. It slows down the learning process and leaves the dog too much in the grey zone.


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## Hunther's Dad

I am answering these questions with the obedience phase in mind. The obedience phase has been the hardest for me to learn how to train.

*What is your fear of / discomfort with compulsion, or what is it that makes you prefer motivation methods over compulsion? 
*
Compulsion training brings out the worst of my personality. It is too easy for me to tip over into anger, which has always had a destructive effect on my training program. That said, I have seen come trainers who use compulsion to achieve outstanding results. The clarity with which they communicate the commands to their dogs prevents any displacement behaviors due to excess stress. But I can't do it. I see a few people out on the field screaming at their dogs, and just ask myself why I would give up free time to do something that I wouldn't enjoy? 

*Second question.

Do you believe that motivation is a better test of your dog's working drives ? 
*
Yes. A dog that cringes and is obviously afraid of its handler (due to poorly performed compulsive training) is inhibited in its behavior. The dog can't show what he or she can really do, because of the fear of punishment. The aesthetic picture is more pleasing when the dog is busting his/her behind to do what the handler asks, as opposed to a dog that slinks through the performance in the hope of avoiding unpleasantness. Today I had somebody tell me that they could tell both the dog and I were having fun on the field. For me, that is the highest compliment.

*Third

Is it wrong to teach a dog what a command means using compulsion? If so, why?*

It is wrong, because it is unfair to the dog to receive a correction for something it does not know how to do. If somebody was trying to teach me something and smacked me in the face every time I got it wrong, I would either a) quit trying or b) smack them back or c) all of the above. That is exactly what happened when I took a tennis class in high school. My "partner" would throw a fit whenever I missed the ball (although he stopped short of the smacking in the face business). After one semester of this, I now have no desire to play tennis. I will not do that to my dog. If there is an exercise that the dog is having trouble with, it is up to me to figure out how to teach it.


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## Vandal

I think I am going to make a video of how I start a dog in obedience using "compulsion". Maybe it will help people to get these really ugly pictures out of their heads.
I have to admit, I have seen e-collars used so poorly, I have one of those movies playing in my head but I know people start out using that thing and they use certain levels of stim to accomplish it. Can't see it happening as easily though and that seems to make people much more comfortable. 

My point is, compulsion should not be about screaming or removing the dog's head.

Edited to add: I have to compliment you on understanding your own limitations Hunthers Dad. That is where most people fail when it comes to dog training.


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## Lynn_P

I'd like to throw out a question to those of you with a lot of experience with compulsion and training.

With a dog that "loads" higher in drive with prong corrections and one that has a high threshold for discomfort (notice I didn't use the word "pain".. LOL), how would you "correct" a dog like this?


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## Samba

Hopefully, Anne can get to some video at some point.

Doing the compulsion, to my mind, should not really be done in such a way it that would have the propensity to trip one into anger. The nature of beginning a dog in compulsion is not an angry or really "corrective" situation to me. I am saying the way it is done, it would be hard for me to get angry in it. I think I have been "madder" in a cookie training situation! lol


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## Vandal

Lynn,
When you say he loads higher with a prong correction, in what situatuion does this happen? What is he doing when he loads higher? Not trying to bite you or anything right?


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## Lynn_P

Vandal said:


> Lynn,
> When you say he loads higher with a prong correction, in what situatuion does this happen? What is he doing when he loads higher? Not trying to bite you or anything right?


No, he's not coming up the leash after me at all. It occurs in protection more than in obedience (though it can occur in that phase as well). In obedience it occurs during dumbbell work.. stationary exercises like the hold in front position he's fine. Throwing the DB is causing a lot of leaking of drive (barking), you can not collar correct him to be quiet it just makes him barks more. If I break his concentration on the DB after I throw like heel him in a circle and set him back up, I have control. This is just one example. Long down is another area, the more I try to correct him for the barking, the high in drive he gets.. I know this is a drive capping issue with this dog. I'm mainly interested in how handlers bring a dog's drive down to a workable level when they come out so high in drive. My helper went over to Germany last weekend and saw two littermates to this dog and they were totally out of control. Over there they are more or less beating the dogs down physically and it's (according to the person that went over there) making the dogs even more out of control and "pissed" (for a lack of a better word). So I would say this is a genetic trait in these dogs. Protection is worse as he's (my dog) in high drive from the moment I get him out of the van. We are starting some control work here without any agitation from the decoy at all. I just can not get a signficant correction in during this phase as he loads and (as I see it) because more "aggressive" towards the helper. I just wanted to open this up for discussion for those of you that have dealt with these types of dogs.

I've been working very hard on getting this dog cap drive in obedience and I'm just hoping it will within time bridge over to his protection. I love it when people tell you that "she'll never get that dog titled, he's too strong and out of control"... watch me. It doesn't take muscle and strength to work with these dogs.. sometimes you just have to think out of the normal "box" of training techniques. I have a great bond with this dog, and I feel we can work as a team out there.


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## Uniballer

I have seen some people successfully use a choke chain for suppression when the prong makes things worse. My current dog responds better to the e-collar for "sit and be quiet" in protection. It doesn't take much, and it leaves him clearer headed than the choke or prong.


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## Vandal

Yes, I think you are going to have to experiment a bit like Uniballer just said.
Pedro was that kind of dog and had previous training that brought out way more drive than necessary. One thing I learned with that dog was to be super calm, ( basically flat to the point of about dead inside), because he would feed off my energy if I got tense. When he got too high, I would just stop the exercise and stand there looking away. He liked to bite me in the stomach on the running during heeling, the movement excited him and he would start trying to grab me. In training, I would immediately stop the exercise. I didn't really think that was going to work, but it did.

When I picked up my old dog Herzog from the person I bought him from, he worked the dog so I could watch. Did the entire obedience routine and the whole time, the dog barked. Not two seconds went by where there was no barking. I took the same approach and he never barked in obedience when I worked him. He liked to whine on the long down, but instead of trying to correct him, I used a clicker and just started over teaching him to be quiet. Stood next to him click and treat, moved a couple of feet away, same thing. I gradually increased the time I would ask him to be quiet along with the distance. 

With both dogs, I did not try to shut them off with compulsion, since it was what you described with your dog. I had to use other methods and the clicker seemed to help the most, along with that big change in my demeanor. Not sure most people can appreciate what I am saying about that but the dogs feel what we feel, so, make sure to ask yourself how you are feeling before you go train. Probably not good to train after a cup of coffee, if you know what I mean. If you feel yourself getting frustrated, quit.


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## Lynn_P

Thank you.

I've been going back to rewarding for the correct behavior.... and asking for very short periods of "quiet"... I think maybe going back to the clicker might be very useful as I used the clicker for some of his foundation work.

One suggestion made that I don't like was for me to physically place the dog back into correct position if he gets out of heel position during the control work in protection. IMO, this will probably within time create "conflict" between dog/handler so I'm not willing to go there.

I do try to remain very "calm" during my work with this dog, and believe me if I become frustrated, I do not continue to train.

I've been re-visiting the idea of an e-collar and thought maybe it might be time to introduce this to him.


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## Vandal

I think , if it were me, I would try quieter commands in protection and try to handle him calmer as well. Same thing with your demeanor. Don't come out all pumped up, because the dog will feed off that. It can make a huge difference. Be calm in the way you handle and that will help, along with less stimulation from the helper.
Might be a good idea to have a coach out there to remind you, because it can be somewhat of a habit. Someone reminding you to control your voice etc might be helpful.


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## Vandal

One other thing. I tried the e-collar with Pedro, nope....not right for the dog, at all. I had help from people who claimed to know how to use it but it just kind of sent him into orbit. Used it in protection for a short period of time, even though I had a very strong feeling it would be just what it turned out to be. The e-collar, even on low stim seemed to add more , (pardon the pun), electricity to an already high amperage dog.


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## Uniballer

Vandal said:


> The e-collar, even on low stim seemed to add more , (pardon the pun), electricity to an already high amperage dog.


I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought the e-collar was the answer for every dog, and every problem. If you can get it done with the clicker then by all means do it.

I also suspect that introducing the e-collar to the dog at a young age can increase the chances of it being a useful tool in training the adult dog. Knowing how to successfully deal with e-collar stimulation or correction is a part of his foundation. I could be wrong about this, though. It's been quite a few years since I used an e-collar to solve a problem on an adult dog who had never had an e-collar on before.


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## Vandal

I didn't get the impression you were suggesting that.
I was just talking about what did and did not work with my dog. Just giving all the pertinent information. I was not really saying that would not work with Lynn's dog either but that last point you made is a good one.


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## hudak004

Lynn.. if your saying the corrections load him then I'm guessing they're not strong enough, a bunch of nagging corrections can load a dog, especially a dog like you describe. When you correct him in obedience how strong are the corrections that get through to him? In protection the level will be much more, and in some cases it actually is a matter of not being able to physically correct the dog strong enough. I don't like the idea of giving advice over the internet, and especially regarding the use of compulsion because you really cant see the whole picture.. or even 1/2 of it! So really it would be much safer for you to use the clicker and shaping to teach this if you can do it that way. Constantly correcting a dog when it isn't getting through to them IS unfair compulsion, and will encourage the dog to do the behavior your trying to correct him for. If I was constantly correcting a dog, then Id figure out a different way to train it. I will not give an unfair correction, and if they aren't learning from my corrections that is unfair. 

For the dumbbell... you could try instead of throwing the dumbbell, have your dog sit, and walk the dumbbell out 20 ft and place it on the ground, go back to your dog and then send him to get it. Its usually the throwing that gets the dog excited. Eventually you'll have to toss it, so start with tossing it a foot, then send him for it so long as he is quite for one second, if he is barking, just wait him out, he is bound to stop barking and look at you at some point, and the second he does, you send him. They learn quick. But also, if your giving him corrections that aren't strong enough for the barking, it will encourage this, so if you cant correct him strong enough don't correct him at all, just wait him out. 

I'm NOT going to tell you to go out and put an e collar on your dog.. but I have drive capping issues too, and it's been a very effective tool. That said, I have someone who is very experienced work the collar for me.. you really need to know how to introduce it and use it correctly, or have someone who does, and someone who knows your dog, and can read your dog, so really, if you don't, please don't use the e collar. Lots of people claim to know how to use it, so before you trust any jim bob or joe, ask them to let you watch them train their dogs, or other dogs, or dogs they've trained, make sure you like what you see.

Good Luck!


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## Lynn_P

Hi Kristi ~

Believe me the corrections are "hard" enough.. it's not just me that can't make an impression with the correction as my helper also has handled this dog with the same results. So it's not because I'm not strong enough. I literally have broken three prong collars on this dog.

With the DB I have done everything that you mentioned... but there comes a time when you have to throw the DB over the hurdle and wall. Again I want to assure you that the corrections are "strong" enough. 

I've done introduction e-collar work with Dante getting instructions from an experienced person before so I do know the process of that. I have some concerns going this route because of what Anne said.. I think with this dog it might throw him over the top. 

I truly appreciate all the suggestions and advice.. like we all know, each dog is different and I believe approaching this with a very calm demeanor on my part and reward the wanted behavior might be the key.


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## JKlatsky

Lynn...
My dog was a long down screamer and I decided I had to change my approach with the dumbbell when he got some worked up that he went to grab the dumbbell when I was throwing it, missed, and bit me in the arm. 

For the long down- What seemed to help was 2 lines. One back tied on a flat agitation collar, and the other on a slip lead (chain or nylon). When he would scream I would pull, calmly but pretty strongly to suppress the leaking. He had a pretty good tantrum the first time, but it leveled out and now he doesn't scream in the long down anymore. 

With the DB- I initially had a prey based retrieve. He was so into that DB that he would really get going and lose his head. I went back to square one with the retrieve and EVERYTHING had to be calm. Sort of like Vandal was saying, a lot of what I had to change was me. Praise was soothing and low, corrections were non rewards and even sounding. Petting or Looking at my dog could get him too amped in that particular exercise, so I didn't so that either. We started with just the hold on a PVC pipe. He so much as whined in anticipation, I stopped and walked away. When I started having him take the DB he so much as started and I would out the DB and walk away. I rewarded with food that was less exciting for him. I would have him sit holding the DB and then call him to me. Whining would get him outed and we would not work until he returned to a better state of mind. I would go out and place the DB, and then return to him and send him. It took time before I would throw it again, and then I had to be ready to immediately out him and end things. It was time consuming. Correction was ineffective, usually created more conflict between me and my dog. Once I went back, made his job VERY clear, and very seriously made my expectations about his vocalization and loading clear, he did improve significantly. I found it was less about changing the exercise, and more about changing his state of mind in the exercise.


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## Vandal

Lynn,
I forgot to mention one thing. You might want to consider using a nylon slip collar in some situations. With the type of dog you are describing, many times, the pinch works against what you are trying to achieve. Like you said about your dog, it loads them. So, if you are using it to try to get the dog to be calmer, you can actually make it worse. In cases like this, it is better to use the Nylon slip and lift the dog up and take a little air when they get too excited vs loading the dog more with collar corrections. I am referring more to protection because it may be you don't need to use it in obedience if the clicker is working well. Just has to be done in a way where there is not a big struggle with you because the struggle will also load the dog. Has to be used with that same calm and matter of fact demeanor.


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## SchHGSD

Vandal said:


> I think I am going to make a video of how I start a dog in obedience using "compulsion". Maybe it will help people to get these really ugly pictures out of their heads.



I'd like to see that. I keep thinking back to this thread, and suspecting I use more compulsion than I think with puppies.


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