# Another skinny dog?



## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

My vet had recently told me that my boy is too skinny. I was surprised as I thought he was absolutely normal; GSDs are supposed to look trim and have well defined waist.. Well, Rex is quite tall (27 inch, 78 pounds) and perhaps indeed needs to put in some weight. Pics attached
So, he is currently on Orejin original, 270-300 g each feed, fed twice a day. I was thinking either to give him a bit more OR maybe give him some extra food in addition, say keep his two feeds a day (morning/evening) and provide with raw food in between. Eggs, meat, fish, yogurt. What do you guys think?


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

He looks great.


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## cheffjapman (Jun 8, 2017)

General is 27" tall and weighs 76 lbs. My vet said that should be our ideal weight for him, but he has some back/leg issues so that was one reason to keep him lean. Personally, I think about 80 lbs would "look" good, but I would rather him FEEL good.


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## Jane&Kody (Jun 30, 2016)

Kody looks exactly like your dog, and the vet said thats optimal weight for him. He is around 95lbs, not sure of his height, but he's a big guy. It won't let me add pictures for some reason.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

konathegsd said:


> He looks great.


Thanks, I think so too 



cheffjapman said:


> General is 27" tall and weighs 76 lbs. My vet said that should be our ideal weight for him, but he has some back/leg issues so that was one reason to keep him lean. Personally, I think about 80 lbs would "look" good, but I would rather him FEEL good.


Potential hips/legs issue was also the reason I tried to keep my dog lean, I was carefully watching his weight and fed him the best and well balanced food I could afford since he was a little puppy. I'm perplexed at what the vet had said.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

He looks good. Our vet wants to have them lean like this. Don't change anything, He looks awesome.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I think vets who know the breed and its issues (esp. SPINE, elbows & hips) tend to strongly advocate to keep them lean to protect them. My vet described the sweet spot as just inside the bottom edge of the normal range -- almost-but-not-quite skinny. That looks like right where your dog is!


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

He looks lovely and perfect! I wouldn't change anything.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Jane&Kody said:


> Kody looks exactly like your dog, and the vet said thats optimal weight for him. He is around 95lbs, not sure of his height, but he's a big guy. It won't let me add pictures for some reason.


That's amazing, shame you cant add pics. Almost 20 pounds difference and yet dogs look similar..
The vet said Rex needs to look more muscly, not sure what she meant. He hasn't started filling out yet..I exercise him a lot and he is absolutely crazy about ball games.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> He looks good. Our vet wants to have them lean like this. Don't change anything, He looks awesome.






Magwart said:


> I think vets who know the breed and its issues (esp. SPINE, elbows & hips) tend to strongly advocate to keep them lean to protect them. My vet described the sweet spot as just inside the bottom edge of the normal range -- almost-but-not-quite skinny. That looks like right where your dog is!





wolfy dog said:


> He looks good. Our vet wants to have them lean like this. Don't change anything, He looks awesome.




Thanks a lot for reassurance, I'll stick to the current dietary regime. Maybe, if he doesn't start filling out soon it will have to be reconsidered.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I have to disagree. For what it's worth, this dog looks much too thin to me. I don't want to see all the ribs on a dog. Feel them, yes, but not see every one like this dog. And this is a photograph, which smooths out the edges. I suspect this dog looks even skinnier in person. 

Sometimes I think we go overboard, thinking we are protecting our dogs from hip and joint problems. Maybe we are going to far in the direction of thinness?

Just my 2 cent's worth.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

El_rex said:


> Thanks a lot for reassurance, I'll stick to the current dietary regime. Maybe, if he doesn't start filling out soon it will have to be reconsidered.


He looks to thin to me. He seems to have a very thick coat, is that his hip bones sticking out? 

How old is this dog? How active is he?


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Ok, so how many pounds do you think he still needs to put on?


His coat is thick, but I'm afraid these are indeed hip bones sticking out..


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't see protruding hip bones in that photo. Can you get better pictures?


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## cheffjapman (Jun 8, 2017)

Here is a picture of General for comparison. 

Like I said, I think he would look good with a couple more pounds, so if he goes to 80 instead of 76, I probably won’t mind unless I see his back start bothering him more.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Magwart said:


> I don't see protruding hip bones in that photo. Can you get better pictures?


I'll try to take better ones.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> He looks to thin to me. He seems to have a very thick coat, is that his hip bones sticking out?
> 
> How old is this dog? How active is he?



he is 1 year 10 months, walked twice a day for at least one hour, lots off leash. he likes playing fetch so yes, I'd say he's quite active,


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

I;m not sure if you can see his butt better, coat is thick and hair's wavy, I can feel bones and they are visible under certain angle..


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

He almost looks obese on this pic. I don't know how to take the best shot that would show how lean he is.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

It's difficult to tell just by looking at a photo, especially if his coat is thick. My dogs look much bigger than they actually are because of their long coats, especially Halo, whose fur is very thick and dense. She looks positively scrawny when hosed down! The _only _way I can tell if my dogs are in optimum condition is a rib check, which I do routinely to see if I need to increase or decrease their food slightly.

When you run your hand down his side, do his ribs feel overly prominent? You should be able to easily feel them, but not to the extent that they protrude. He should feel lean, not skinny. If his is a bit too ribby, simply increase his meals by a small amount. I don't think you need to add more food between meals.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Your dog looks fine and is at a good weight, especially for his age and size. I wouldn't worry about his weight right now. Perhaps, a little more conditioning. GSD's should be athletic dogs and kept trim and in shape. Think of how many fat Olympic sprinters have you ever seen?


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Is this dog of relative Olympic fitness or quality? I think this is comparing apples and oranges. 

But with a quick look Googling "Olympic Sprinters Body Type" I see no athlete with obvious ribs showing They all have flesh covering them.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

It was an analogy, an example used to illustrate a point. I am viewing the photos on my phone and do not see ribs showing that I would be concerned with. 

The problem is that the vast majority of GSD owners and veterinarians have never seen a GSD that is truly in fit shape. Too many people think overweight dogs are the ideal and standard.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I agree that people don't often realize their dogs are too fat. But that has nothing to do with this dog. I still that he is too thin. You can easily see all his ribs in some of the photos. Maybe that doesn't show very well on a screen as small as a phone.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Pawsed said:


> Is this dog of relative Olympic fitness or quality? I think this is comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> But with a quick look Googling "Olympic Sprinters Body Type" I see no athlete with obvious ribs showing They all have flesh covering them.


I read an article recently about species of animals that can't swim vs those that can. The ones that can NOT swim are animals that were designed by nature to lack a layer of fat over there muscles. Those that can swim, such as dogs, were provided by nature with a thin layer of fat over their muscles making swimming possible.

I know that competition weight lifters go on extreme, often unhealthy, diets just before a show which helps them shed excess water and visible fat. Those ripped muscles people are seeing is not the competitor's natural state but an artificially induced one for show purposes only. After the show, they return to a state where some fat is natural and healthy.

I am by no means advocating for fat dogs, but IMO, the skeletal dogs are just as unhealthy, if not more so. I have had both thin and pudgy dogs and cats get very sick. The heavier animals ALWAYS fared better whether the condition was treatable or terminal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't like skinny dogs..

The goal is a lean , robust, well muscled . Lean and skinny are not one and the same.

The dog has to have some reserves . You'll thank your lucky stars should the dog ever have
some set back .

Dogs in different climates need different cover . 

Animals put so much effort into giving themselves advantages . They aren't figure-conscious .
A coyote running around skinny at this time of year is going to have challenges .

I think the dog in question is too thin. It is not a question of weight for the sake of weight but healthy 
condition .


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I agree, I think the dog is abit too thin. The great part is, it's easily remedied should the owner wish. I prefer smooth muscle and not being able to visually count the ribs. There seems to be a fine line, my trainer thinks my dog is heavy and I think he's perfect. It's in the eye of the beholder.


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## dz0qp5 (Oct 12, 2004)

Hard to tell from the pics.. might be a little thin seems like 3 to 4 on BCS.

LankaVet: Body Condition Score Charts of Dogs and Cats


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" Perhaps, a little more conditioning. GSD's should be athletic dogs and kept trim and in shape. "

yes to this . 

I have a young female who is not boney , or shelly , trim and fit and very athletic . She is hard bodied .
If you were to give her a slap to her thigh you would hurt your hand . 

looking at the chart the dog discussed would fall into the 3 category

- Saphire -- Gus is right there in 5 -- post the picture of him standing


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Ok, I got it. Tried to take better pics again, sometimes he looks normal, sometimes horrible thin. My partner took a pic of the dog from high above and 'cos he is very tall the dog looks horrible skinny. Then a pic from aside - normal again. Also some vids, have a look..

If I use the rib check then I dont feel the ribs but mainly because his coat is quite thick. If I press against the skin then the whole rib cage feels prominent..

https://vimeo.com/236197111

https://vimeo.com/236197305

https://vimeo.com/236197472

Ok, Rex is too thin, but then back to post 1 - how do I change this?
Option 1. Top up his food, maybe on 50g or a bit more a day (600 g of currently fed Orejin food)
Option 2. Introduce him to one additional feed a day (3 feeds in total): raw food supplying eggs, yogurt, chicken, salmon etc
Option 3. Change the kibble. Now, not great choice here, but top alternatives are:

- Akela 80:20 Dog Food. UK brand, very similar to Orijen. Protein:39%, Oils&Fats:18.5%, Fibre:3%, Ash:11%, Calcium:2.4%, Phosphorous:1.6%, Omega 6: 3.4%;Omega 3: 1.4%, Moisture:8.5%, NFE:20% Metabolisable Energy: 364Kcal/100g Copper Content: 14.42mg/K

- Arden Grange Adult Premium: Crude Protein 26%, Fat Content 17%, Crude Ash 7%, Crude Fibres 3%, Calcium 1.12%, Phosphorous 0.8%, Omega-3 0.76%, Omega-6 3.47%.

- James Wellbeloved. protein 23.5 %, crude fibres 3 %, fat content 14.5 %, crude ash 7.5 %, Vitamin E 150 mg/kg, omega-3 fatty acids 2.1 %, omega-6 fatty acids 1.9 %

I dont know if changing the kibble is necessary as he seems to be happy on Orejin, but maybe its not the best food for him?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Last picture, he looks a little too thin. The picture above that he looks fine to me. Was this n the same day? How old is he?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

El_rex said:


> If I use the rib check then I dont feel the ribs but mainly because his coat is quite thick. *If I press against the skin then the whole rib cage feels prominent.*


That's exactly how you'd do a rib check. You need to feel through the coat to the skin. 

In that case, I would increase his meals slightly. You don't need to overthink this - if he's doing well on Orijen I see no reason to change to a different food. I measure in cups, not by weight, so I can't give you a suggestion as to how much more in kgs, but maybe toss in a small handful extra for a couple of weeks and see how he does.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

*wolfy dog*, all pics and vids taken on the same day, this morning. Rex is 1 year 10 months old.

*Cassidy's Mom,* ok, I'll increase his meals slightly and check on ribs in about a month


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Last picture, he looks a little too thin. The picture above that he looks fine to me. Was this n the same day? How old is he?


I had exactly the same reaction -- no concern until I saw the top-down picture, and that's too skinny. Feed for his target weight. If you want to put 2-3 more kg on him, then look on the bag and see what a dog that already has that weight should be fed.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Magwart said:


> I had exactly the same reaction -- no concern until I saw the top-down picture, and that's too skinny. Feed for his target weight. If you want to put 2-3 more kg on him, then look on the bag and see what a dog that already has that weight should be fed.



According to the pack I was overfeeding him already. It says to feed 420 g of Orejin Adult to a 40 kg dog, and I was feeding him around 600 g (he is 35 kg). Well, topped it up to 700 g now, lets see if he starts putting on weight..


PS. He is being regularly dewormed.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

El_rex said:


> According to the pack I was overfeeding him already. It says to feed 420 g of Orejin Adult to a 40 kg dog, and I was feeding him around 600 g (he is 35 kg). Well, topped it up to 700 g now, lets see if he starts putting on weight..
> 
> 
> PS. He is being regularly dewormed.


For deworming are you switching the type of dewormer or going to a vet to get it done? That can make a difference. 

Also I honestly don't trust the recommended feeding proportions on some of the feed bags. We'd be feeding my dog Conan a ridiculous amount of food if we went with their recommended feeding. Both Codi and Conan need less than what's recommended and Shelby needs more than recommended. 
Perhaps Orjen is more accurate but probably they are more guidelines to give you an idea of what your dog needs.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

News. The vet insisted on checking if Rex has EPI. Turned out he doesn't, BUT they found he has B12 and folate deficiency and suggested changing the food. Blimey, I thought the food was the best one can think of (raw feeding aside). So, another brand is ordered by the vet and am collecting it Monday. Now sure what is the brand, apparently its a diet for working dogs, such as spaniels and is richer in fatty acids and more carby compared to Orejin. So we shall see. Least, no EPI. Poor Rex.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Kazel said:


> For deworming are you switching the type of dewormer or going to a vet to get it done? That can make a difference.
> 
> Also I honestly don't trust the recommended feeding proportions on some of the feed bags. We'd be feeding my dog Conan a ridiculous amount of food if we went with their recommended feeding. Both Codi and Conan need less than what's recommended and Shelby needs more than recommended.
> Perhaps Orjen is more accurate but probably they are more guidelines to give you an idea of what your dog needs.



We get the same type of dewormer but always get from the vet. Its called Drontal.
https://www.drontalandadvantage.co....MIkfmY6szt1gIV0jLTCh0IiwDZEAAYAiAAEgJfePD_BwE


I agree with you about feeding guides, but Rex was literally getting 2.5 times more that he needed if one was to trust the bag, and this is way over the top  Hopefully - hopefully(!) the food still wasn't ideal for him and we need to switch.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

El_rex said:


> News. The vet insisted on checking if Rex has EPI. Turned out he doesn't, BUT they found he has B12 and folate deficiency and suggested changing the food. Blimey, I thought the food was the best one can think of (raw feeding aside). So, another brand is ordered by the vet and am collecting it Monday. Now sure what is the brand, apparently its a diet for working dogs, such as spaniels and is richer in fatty acids and more carby compared to Orejin. So we shall see. Least, no EPI. Poor Rex.



I can already see problems.

I sure would like to know what your vet's choice of kibble will be. 

The fact that it is "more carby" is concerning . 
Carbs are fillers in the bag . Costly fillers adding little nutritional value , taxing the dog's finite digestive enzymes , causing abnormal gut fermentation allowing a further disturbance of the guts friendly bacterial environment and more than likely resulting in yeast overgrowth which can spread like some wild fire.

the two mal's -- maldigestion and malabsorption . Wait a minute . Aren't you there already and trying to fix things?

Parasitic infections , worms , tend to take hold in hosts that are weakened. 
Do the test to determine what needs to be eliminated -- take action with a wormer which is most effective against that vermifuge .
By routinely worming with something ineffective or unnecessary does nothing beneficial .

Ironically you may be disrupting the very gut flora and lower intestinal bacteria that you need for absorption and for production of some vitamins , including B 12 especially.

The issue of folates? Nothing difficult there . 
More often than not a deficiency of B 12 and folate is noted as the two work together in biosynthesis .


Liver , beef m sardine, chicken , egg , are meat sources.

Liver is a source of both B 12 and folate.

Plant sources would be your spirulina , oarsley, etc .

Chlorella and spirulina contain high levels of bioactive B 12 - and folate.

this is the Hawaiian spirulina that I use in my supplements https://www.cyanotech.com/pdfs/spirulina/spbul52.PDF

another consideration --- vitamins from REAL whole FOOD , are recognized and absorbed by the body. There are some university studies ongoing which question the value of synthetic vitamins .

The other issue -- the one of the fatty acids . HEAT and oxygen destroy delicate essential fatty acids . I think the kibble would have left over caloric fat -- not EFA's .


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

El-rex, most so-called veterinary prescription diets are garbage. Please let us know what the brand name of this food is!!

Here's an example of what the vets get a kickback to sell in their clinics:

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/hills-science-diet-dog-food-mature-adult-dry/

Okay, obviously things have changed over the years. That's a much better food than the free bag of Science Diet puppy food the vet offered me when I got Star 10 years ago. The first ingredient on the label back then was CORN MEAL. It was also the first ingredient of most of the Hills' Science Diet foods. Looks like they've upped their game since then. But you will still be paying a premium price for a medium-quality dog food, when you could buy a very similar food in your local pet store for much less money.


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

carmspack said:


> I can already see problems.
> 
> I sure would like to know what your vet's choice of kibble will be.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for you input. Soon I know what kibble's on the table I'll post it here. Thing is in the UK the choice of kibble is different compared to the US and Kanada. For example, I've never seen Blue Buffalo here same as most other brands mentioned by board members..
So, your action would be? You suggest me to deworm him again but use a different dewormer? Any particular you have in mind? We routinely use Drontal. 
Last deworming was about 2 weeks ago, it is ok to do it again that soon, even if the medicine used is different?
Also, I can surely get spurilina supplement if it might be beneficial for the dog?
Other thing the vet said that if Rex isn't putting on weight or/and his bloodwork isn't changed in one month then we need to ustrasound him to check for abnormal gut development...


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Update. Been feeding Rex this diet for a month, no change to his weight whatsoever. I have no idea what to do now, he appears to be active and healthy, his coat is nice and shiny, but he is just too skinny


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thumbs down --- and that is a complete statement and not a derivative as so many things are on this vague label.

energy ? --- you can provide that with a pat of butter .


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

carmspack said:


> thumbs down --- and that is a complete statement and not a derivative as so many things are on this vague label.
> 
> energy ? --- you can provide that with a pat of butter .


Very true. But this diet was suggested as to replace Orejin food which Rex had been fed since he was a puppy. I don't know what I should feed him now, the poops have been great (same as they have on Orejin, to be honest).


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

El_rex said:


> Update. Been feeding Rex this diet for a month, no change to his weight whatsoever. I have no idea what to do now, he appears to be active and healthy, his coat is nice and shiny, but he is just too skinny


I wouldn't trust that food. A lot of fluff in the description without mentioning of ingredients (suspicious!). Instead of de-worming for reasons of 'just to be sure', I would actually bring in a stool sample to be tested for anything possible. Worming also puts a lot of chemicals in his body. Any other chemicals he is exposed to?
If I read everything correctly he did well on Orijin so I would feed him just that three times a day instead of adding a lot of calcium-containing (bones and dairy) supplements that can make his diet unbalanced. Another way to look at it is that sometimes animals and humans are just meant to be thin and no matter what you feed them, they will always be skinny. I had Whippets who you couldn't get fat if you wanted to. They all lived until 14 and 15 years old.
Your dog is young and has a few more years to go of filling out. He looks healthy, nice coat and if he is active and healthy I would not worry too much. I have been in the UK and was shocked to see how many dogs are obese there. I bet yours will outrun them all. Have you considered feeding him raw? Even partially like kibble in the AM and raw in the PM?


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> I wouldn't trust that food. A lot of fluff in the description without mentioning of ingredients (suspicious!). Instead of de-worming for reasons of 'just to be sure', I would actually bring in a stool sample to be tested for anything possible. Worming also puts a lot of chemicals in his body. Any other chemicals he is exposed to?
> If I read everything correctly he did well on Orijin so I would feed him just that three times a day instead of adding a lot of calcium-containing (bones and dairy) supplements that can make his diet unbalanced. Another way to look at it is that sometimes animals and humans are just meant to be thin and no matter what you feed them, they will always be skinny. I had Whippets who you couldn't get fat if you wanted to. They all lived until 14 and 15 years old.
> Your dog is young and has a few more years to go of filling out. He looks healthy, nice coat and if he is active and healthy I would not worry too much. I have been in the UK and was shocked to see how many dogs are obese there. I bet yours will outrun them all. Have you considered feeding him raw? Even partially like kibble in the AM and raw in the PM?


I agree with you. Rex is going back on Orejin, he really liked the food (although he likes any food). I'm thinking of giving him 700-750 g a day, that what I was feeding him before switching to that diet. It is definitely better to know what is going into your dog.. 
His next deworming is scheduled in about 1.5 months, I will ask my vet if stool samples can be tested prior to giving him tablets. I dont think Rex is exposed to any other chemical (least not that I'm aware of) and I'm (sadly) not on a slim side myself 
It is also possible that Rex is of slim build, but I dont know how often this happens in GSDs. Some GSDs I met did look slimmer than average but they also looked a bit off, as if they were mixed with other breeds. Maybe Rex is mixed too since he isn't pedigreed...Anyway, I'm happy for him to stay this way as long as he is healthy. That vet comment made feel concerned though. I shall see how things develop.
I would consider switching him to partial raw feeding. I will read thru the relevant section and see if we can do this. 
Thank you for input!


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## griz (Jan 1, 2001)

this is the actual ingredient list for that food

Pork fat, Soya meal , Fish meal, Wheat, Egg powder, White rice, Potato protein, Maize protein, Yeast , Hydrolysed protein, Maize starch, Fish oil, Vitamins and Minerals, Psyllium husk, Salt

i truly believe that there is no perfect food out there. You can add Kefir, or enzymes to help him get the most out of his diet... but that product you were feeding him looks like crap. There are sooo many different brands out there that will work for your dog.

Personally I thought your dog looked just fine. He looks lanky and albeit maybe a little skinny but hes doing well yes? then i wouldn't worry.


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Another way to look at it is that sometimes animals and humans are just meant to be thin and no matter what you feed them, they will always be skinny. I had Whippets who you couldn't get fat if you wanted to. They all lived until 14 and 15 years old.


My pup's mom looked a bit on the skinny side for me. Despite that, you could MAYBE see her last rib. She just had a thin build. Her height and weight are both toward the top of the standard

I've heard some dogs take up to 2yrs to fill out

My suggestion would be to go back to the old food and just up the intake a little

I have little knowledge about dog diets, but it just seems logical to me


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

OK, We finished the pack of crappy food end on November and Rex was back on Orejin. At this point he managed to put on 3 more kilos! 
What I then started doing is supplementing him with some peanut butter (yes, I know!) just to pack him with more calories.. It might sound pathetic, but I cant afford feeding him with almost a kilo of Orejin food in order to provide him with all the calories he needs. 
He looks better now, will post more pics soon


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

griz said:


> this is the actual ingredient list for that food
> 
> Pork fat, Soya meal , Fish meal, Wheat, Egg powder, White rice, Potato protein, Maize protein, Yeast , Hydrolysed protein, Maize starch, Fish oil, Vitamins and Minerals, Psyllium husk, Salt
> 
> ...


He still looks skinny and lanky and most people seem to think he is still a pup.. I basically need to feed him a LOT in order to keep his body weights right, but feeding Orejin gets very expensive if we try to keep up with his energy expenditure.. as previosly mentioned, I supplement him with peanut butter at the moment.. open to any suggestions! We have a polish shop nearby and I can surely get Kefir.. anything else, guys?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi El_rex 
Coming in late on this thread, and only read this page, so I may be repeating some suggestions, 
but if the food Griz listed is what you've been feeding him, it has really robbed his body of good nutrition for however long you've been feeding it. 

Below is an example of what I mean:
Dr. Karen Becker: Soybeans and soybean-related products (including soybean meal) are considered a low-quality, incomplete protein well known to create food allergies in pets.
Soybeans contain large quantities of anti-nutrients (natural toxins), including enzyme inhibitors that interfere with the body's ability to digest protein. These substances can cause significant gastric upset, reduced protein digestion, and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. 



Rodney Hibib: 


Soy is antigenic (meaning it can stimulate the production of antibodies)
Soy is high in goitrogens, which interfere with iodine metabolism
Soy denatures during high temperature processing resulting in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines
Soy contains trypsin inhibitors (which have caused stunted growth in test animals)
Soy is high in phytic acid, which reduces the digestion of key nutrients
In humans, soy’s compounds resemble human estrogen, which blocks normal estrogen, causing infertility, and increasing the risk of breast cancer
Soy has high levels of manganese and aluminum, which can lead to brain damage
Ingestion of soybean products is linked to seizures in both dogs and cats
Soy can cause serious gastric distress (gas and discomfort) in our pets


 · _“The soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or ‘antinutrients.’ They can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake.Soybeans also contain haemagglutinin, a clot-promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together.” (Cinderella’s Dark Side, Sally Fallon & Mary G Enig, PhD)_

· _“Soy interferes with the thyroid gland’s ability to make T4 (thyroxine) and (T3) tri-iodothyronine, hormones necessary for normal thyroid function. In dogs, the result is hypothyroidism.” (Dr Jean Dodds)

_ 

_“A 2004 study analyzing 24 commercial dog foods containing soy found that these products contained concentrations of phytoestrogens in large enough quantities to have a biological effect on our pets”. (PubMed)_
 

So glad you went back to Orijen! The price is worth it for your dogs health.

Make sure the keifer is PLAIN - no sugar's. If you can get goat keifer or goat milk/yogurt....all the better!

Add some REAL meat to his diet (unless allergic to some)...chicken, beef, goat, lamb, and pork, but pork MUST be frozen for 2-3 weeks before feeding. 

Add fresh eggs several times per week too. You may feed raw or LIGHTLY cooked eggs, but keep the yolk intact and uncooked to protect the fragile fatty acids from exposure to air and heat. 

I would also suggest a high quality Digestive Enzyme (helps to assimilate food) & a ProBiotic (keeps the "good" bacteria in the gut). Since about 75% of the immune system lies in the gut it is *very* important to keep it healthy. 

This product has both Probiotic's and Digestive Enzymes and is manufactured in the UK .....available at Amazon UK: *Advanced Probiotic Plus*- Contains 5 Strains of Bacteria in a Prebiotic Inulin Base, 2 Billion CFUs Per Tablet, Plus Digestive Enzymes: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-P...qid=1513341667&sr=8-4&keywords=dog+probiotics 


Moms


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

How old is your boy? (he is beautiful). He looks to be at a great weight to me, especially if he is young.My guy is 6 moths old, 25 inches and about 65 pounds were I to guess (he was 60 pounds 4 weeks ago). My vet is passionate about the breed and she wants him lean. I think when vets do not know the breed, they go by the standard of "feel ribs but not see them". From what I can see however, on young healthy lean GSDs due to their natural build you can see a hint of their ribs as they move around, if they are at a good weight. My last GSD did not fill out until he was 4.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Sorry, I just read the whole thread. He looks different in various pics. The last pic in post #30..yes, looks too thin. Still back on Orijen? How is he doing?


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

*Momto2GSDs

*Thanks! I was thinking of giving him an additional feed for a while now. Guess it will be before bedtime; this is when he now gets his peanut butter treat (massive table spoon). It ll be either kefir plus eggs, or something raw. Luckily, he is not allergic to anything. 
About probiotics.. This is an option of course, and they are cheap.. I'm a bit concerned tho for enzyme part.. Wouldnt it make him unable (or less able) to digest foods on his own?


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

CometDog said:


> How old is your boy? (he is beautiful). He looks to be at a great weight to me, especially if he is young.My guy is 6 moths old, 25 inches and about 65 pounds were I to guess (he was 60 pounds 4 weeks ago). My vet is passionate about the breed and she wants him lean. I think when vets do not know the breed, they go by the standard of "feel ribs but not see them". From what I can see however, on young healthy lean GSDs due to their natural build you can see a hint of their ribs as they move around, if they are at a good weight. My last GSD did not fill out until he was 4.


He is two now but still looks like a lanky puppy. Rex is very tall, 27.5 inches and although he weighs 83 pounds now one could still call him skinny.. Rib -wise - yes, we got to that, I can hardly see any ribs showing even when he crouches to lick his backside..:grin2:


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

El_rex said:


> *Momto2GSDs
> 
> *Thanks! I was thinking of giving him an additional feed for a while now. Guess it will be before bedtime; this is when he now gets his peanut butter treat (massive table spoon). It ll be either kefir plus eggs, or something raw. Luckily, he is not allergic to anything.
> About probiotics.. This is an option of course, and they are cheap.. I'm a bit concerned tho for enzyme part.. Wouldnt it make him unable (or less able) to digest foods on his own?


He's eating Extruded Cooked kibble. Temps over 118* destroy any of the enzymes that the food contained before cooking. 
So the pancreas is overtaxed trying to produce enough enzymes to process the cooked, dry, kibble.

_"The body can’t produce a finite supply of enzymes – like a bank account, if you continuously make withdrawals without depositing money, you will soon be broke." DNM

"Although the pancreas produces enzymes for digestion of fats, proteins, and carbohydrates, research shows that animals produce specific types and amounts of digestive enzymes, regardless of the composition of their diet. This means that *most animals will benefit from the addition of digestive enzymes*, particularly when they are eating commercial kibble or canned food with higher amounts of carbohydrates." Dr. Elizabeth Carney

_Moms


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Momto2GSDs

Thank you! I'll get this supplement then 

This is what Rex looked like this morning


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Beautiful boy!

His coloring is like my Grand-Dogs!


Please keep us updated on his progress with the items you are considering adding to his diet!

Moms


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

Hi guys

Some update and pics from this morning. Rex put some more weight and according to the vet we now should make sure he doesnt go above his current weight (88 pounds). 
He gets his Orejin food (about 700 g a day) and supplemented with egg and kefir in the evening. He is fed at around 8 in the morning and 7 in the evening, and just before going to bed I give him one egg or some kefir (alternated every other day). Sometimes he gets chicken livers or chicken breast. Foodwise, the guy is not picky!


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