# Show line/working line crosses



## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

this summer, I will be purchasing a show line/working line cross (sire is full American Show line, dam is 50/50 American Show line & West German Working line), they’ll be 3/4 show line and 1/4 working line. A local breeder suggest it would be better for me if I want to do sporting and conformation shows and the structure wouldn’t be too extreme. I would like to see if anyone have a GSD that’s a cross. I’m interested to see the outcome. The difference in drive and structure.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

I have a West German Showline (70%) x Working line (30%). Her father had the working line content and the mother is very moderate. She turned out like a moderate showline for the most part. She has a short, steep croup which is common in all lines of GSD. Her rear angulation is a bit lacking like most working line. She has lighter bone that most showline GSD. She has a slight downward bend of the lumbar spine like a showline. She is very small in comparison to her littermates at 50 lbs. 

She is both food and toy motivated. She has way more energy than I bargained for. 
I don't know how to judge her level of drive. I think she has pretty high prey drive. She chases anything that moves. She'll rip your arm off to chase a leaf.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Can i ask what sport you are interested in doing? With that much ASL, I would expect the dogs to look like a more moderately built ASL. Purposely mixing WL and ASL is not done very often as far as I know.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I have a dog that is 50/50 ASL/GSL. She has good solid structure, and good temperament. Another breeder I know had a female with the same mix, and she was a disaster conformation-wise, with the worst characteristics of both lines.

It's a gamble as to what you're going to get.

Edit: can't figure out how to post a photo on the new version of this website! Want to post one from my saved photos on my computer.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Mixing types is always a risk - you might get what you envision, but more than likely you won't.

I see no sense in mixing European working lines wiht ASL - they are at opposite ends of the spectrum for type. Personality, drive, structure, temperament all in opposition....to mix type, you need to get as much commonality as possible...a moderate ASL to a moderate WGSL to bring in X, Y, Z if you are a ASL breeder has shown up alot...when you mix extremes - you don't get moderate - you get a hodgepodge of extremes...picture the now common roach back with the extreme length of stifle to get that ASL stack, and a thin long neck with a big beefy WGSH.....I have watched people breed draft mares to Thoroughbred stallions hoping for warmblood types....saw 3 full siblings....one a gorgeous, gorgeous black stallion - warmblood type - unsound as ****....broke down at 3 because the TB bone could not support the big body....one just ugly but probably the best of the 3....and the third had a TB body with huge drafty legs and hooves and a head just a tad too big....it takes several generations to use these crosses to refine what you would get...

The cross you reference will be unlikely to excel in anything....WL are typically short of croup and upright and short of upper arm...even if mom does not show that, it will happen in the litter...bet it happened in litter she came from! That gene seems very very ingrained in WL....it is rare that a critique of a working line does not include that comment. Sport???? Sorry - the ASL dogs do not have even drive in OB to do a snappy recall that I have seen....going to an AKC ob group for over 20 years, I have seen lots of ASL dogs in class.....they usually do not have as much "umph" as teh Golden Retrievers and certainly less than the Border Collies!!! Many are AKC champions whose owners want a title on "the other end"...Someone got ahold of one of my males (long story!!! NOT with my blessing!) and bred it to a ASL, then I believe a female from that was bred back to another highly aggressive, thin nerved WL dog.....I just shuddered....the lines are still floating around out there...but nothing was accomplished with the cross types even though I know a couple were started in training.

Go one way or the other...otherwise you just are mixing water and dirt and end up with mud....


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Can i ask what sport you are interested in doing? With that much ASL, I would expect the dogs to look like a more moderately built ASL. Purposely mixing WL and ASL is not done very often as far as I know.


lure coursing, dock diving, and agility. Still debating on obedience. Yes, the breeders is expecting the dogs to be moderate as well.


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

JRadtke said:


> I have a West German Showline (70%) x Working line (30%). Her father had the working line content and the mother is very moderate. She turned out like a moderate showline for the most part. She has a short, steep croup which is common in all lines of GSD. Her rear angulation is a bit lacking like most working line. She has lighter bone that most showline GSD. She has a slight downward bend of the lumbar spine like a showline. She is very small in comparison to her littermates at 50 lbs.
> 
> She is both food and toy motivated. She has way more energy than I bargained for.
> I don't know how to judge her level of drive. I think she has pretty high prey drive. She chases anything that moves. She'll rip your arm off to chase a leaf.
> ...


I’m going to check her Instagram page out.


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> Mixing types is always a risk - you might get what you envision, but more than likely you won't.
> 
> I see no sense in mixing European working lines wiht ASL - they are at opposite ends of the spectrum for type. Personality, drive, structure, temperament all in opposition....to mix type, you need to get as much commonality as possible...a moderate ASL to a moderate WGSL to bring in X, Y, Z if you are a ASL breeder has shown up alot...when you mix extremes - you don't get moderate - you get a hodgepodge of extremes...picture the now common roach back with the extreme length of stifle to get that ASL stack, and a thin long neck with a big beefy WGSH.....I have watched people breed draft mares to Thoroughbred stallions hoping for warmblood types....saw 3 full siblings....one a gorgeous, gorgeous black stallion - warmblood type - unsound as ****....broke down at 3 because the TB bone could not support the big body....one just ugly but probably the best of the 3....and the third had a TB body with huge drafty legs and hooves and a head just a tad too big....it takes several generations to use these crosses to refine what you would get...
> 
> ...


Thank you for response. And it’s tough for me as well. Since I’m a first time shepherd owner and I have other dogs, who aren’t dog aggressive, and a toddler, who we taught to be very good with our dogs, I was told to go either ASL/ WGSL or a cross because working line wouldn’t be great for my first shepherd. I would go with DDR if I had a choice.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree that DDR would not be a great choice for a first dog. I really don't understand the desire for DDR especially if you want a dog for sport. Is it the color? What is it people think they are? The wall came down decades ago. A true DDR is rare to even find. However, the idea that you can't have a WL for your first dog is ridiculous. There is no reason why you can't have one that is not dog aggressive, not cat aggressive and not child aggressive. They are plentiful. If a WL is what you want, then find a good breeder and work with them. I know of a breeding right now in NY that has a male available. Both parents are sound, live with other dogs. I know progeny of the sire's sister who live with small children (and adore them).

If you are in the NY area and interested, I can share that info with you.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

BMurry said:


> Thank you for response. And it’s tough for me as well. Since I’m a first time shepherd owner and I have other dogs, who aren’t dog aggressive, and a toddler, who we taught to be very good with our dogs, I was told to go either ASL/ WGSL or a cross because working line wouldn’t be great for my first shepherd. I would go with DDR if I had a choice.


I also agree with Jax. Absolutely no reason a working line could not fit with what you want. I can’t comment on the other lines bc I have not owned them. 


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> I agree that DDR would not be a great choice for a first dog. I really don't understand the desire for DDR especially if you want a dog for sport. Is it the color? What is it people think they are? The wall came down decades ago. A true DDR is rare to even find. However, the idea that you can't have a WL for your first dog is ridiculous. There is no reason why you can't have one that is not dog aggressive, not cat aggressive and not child aggressive. They are plentiful. If a WL is what you want, then find a good breeder and work with them. I know of a breeding right now in NY that has a male available. Both parents are sound, live with other dogs. I know progeny of the sire's sister who live with small children (and adore them).
> 
> If you are in the NY area and interested, I can share that info with you.


It’s not the color. It’s more of size. I told the breeder that I was looking for size and she suggested that DDR would be next after ASL and WGSL for size. But the temperament was softer than the other working lines. And, I was also told that DDR is rare to find a 100% pure one. Plus, my lifestyle plays a role too. I guess with me and my wife working. But, we have an active lifestyle regardless. I’m active in confirmation shows with my other dogs. I just want to get into something more active than just a beauty pageant.


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

Nscullin said:


> I also agree with Jax. Absolutely no reason a working line could not fit with what you want. I can’t comment on the other lines bc I have not owned them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I told the breeder that I like the structure and the drive but would like that off switch. So, that’s why she suggested a cross.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

BMurry said:


> I told the breeder that I like the structure and the drive but would like that off switch. So, that’s why she suggested a cross.


Working lines can have off switches. It’s all about finding the right breeder and getting the right pup. 


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

BMurry said:


> I would go with DDR if I had a choice.


Nor sure what this means! Your puppy, your choice!

Just, as the saying goes, be careful what you wish for...do your homework, and work the dog you end up with!


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Nor sure what this means! Your puppy, your choice!
> 
> Just, as the saying goes, be careful what you wish for...do your homework, and work the dog you end up with!


i agree. I can only go by someone who’s experience in the breed and knows what’s best. The breeder is a friend as well. Her specialty is working line. So, did mention that if I truly want a working line, she will help me but recommend that it should be my 2nd shepherd, not my first.


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

Nscullin said:


> Working lines can have off switches. It’s all about finding the right breeder and getting the right pup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok, if you could help me in the right direction with breeders that have good working line shepherds, it’ll help. I live Florida.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

just the name/lable "DDR" gets people up in arms - there are breeders whose kennels still are full of dogs who are descendents of the dogs bred in and registered via DDR ....for some reason....there is a resentment of sorts because the DDR ceased to exist....to me - it is nothing but a subtype...and you can still find dogs of this type.

That being said, I would say that you might get the size and good color...the temperament may or may not be what you are looking for as a companion....it is a crap shoot as the gene pool is rather limited and the basis of this type is a rather aloof dog with suspicion and aggression. They are not easy to train - I had a dog who was 95% DDR and was teh most frustrating dog I have ever had - I did 5? 8? Sch3's on her....but she had her own agenda every single day. Good good looking dog, strong type genetically - still have the looks 5 generations down from her.

If you want to show in conformation - go ASL because nothing else will be looked at. If you want an active dog to do things with - go Euro WL....my dogs are a blend of DDR/Czech/WGR/Belgian lines/kennels - but my female family fo r5 generations now...quite a few pups that I have sold to novice working homes where they are companion dogs first, and they are very successful with them...so find a breeder who is in the breed, not just importing and pumping out litter after litter without developing their own family and bloodlines - they are the kind that know what they are producing and will be able to help you with a suitable prospect no matter if ASL, DDR, WGSL or Euro WL!

Lee


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

BMurry said:


> i agree. I can only go by someone who’s experience in the breed and knows what’s best. The breeder is a friend as well. Her specialty is working line. So, did mention that if I truly want a working line, she will help me but recommend that it should be my 2nd shepherd, not my first.


If the breeder is your friend, trust them and let them help you find a first GSD!


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> just the name/lable "DDR" gets people up in arms - there are breeders whose kennels still are full of dogs who are descendents of the dogs bred in and registered via DDR ....for some reason....there is a resentment of sorts because the DDR ceased to exist....to me - it is nothing but a subtype...and you can still find dogs of this type.
> 
> That being said, I would say that you might get the size and good color...the temperament may or may not be what you are looking for as a companion....it is a crap shoot as the gene pool is rather limited and the basis of this type is a rather aloof dog with suspicion and aggression. They are not easy to train - I had a dog who was 95% DDR and was teh most frustrating dog I have ever had - I did 5? 8? Sch3's on her....but she had her own agenda every single day. Good good looking dog, strong type genetically - still have the looks 5 generations down from her.
> 
> ...


Lee, I appreciate this comment. I’ve seen European shepherds but never really looked to deep into it. I just knew that I want size out of a working line. I will look into more of this. Thank you.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

BMurry said:


> Lee, I appreciate this comment. I’ve seen European shepherds but never really looked to deep into it. I just knew that I want size out of a working line. I will look into more of this. Thank you.



Exactly what do you mean by the "size" that you want? Dogs who pass a koer are the "correct" size....my male - who is titled and koered, is a substantial dog in structure...he was placed V 3 in a 10 or 11 dog class, with 1 & 2 being showline dogs (absolutely normal - showlines pretty much always go to the front!!) and 7 working line males behind him....he weighs about 90 pounds, is not overweight an ounce, and height is within standard - not sure if 24.5 or 25 inches, would have to look at koer and recalculate...so he is up at top of scale for correct size for the breed.

Lee


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

BMurry said:


> Ok, if you could help me in the right direction with breeders that have good working line shepherds, it’ll help. I live Florida.


I can’t help with that. I’m sorry. If we weren’t in this pandemic, I’d recommend shipping from NE breeders. They have quite a few reputable people. 


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> Exactly what do you mean by the "size" that you want? Dogs who pass a koer are the "correct" size....my male - who is titled and koered, is a substantial dog in structure...he was placed V 3 in a 10 or 11 dog class, with 1 & 2 being showline dogs (absolutely normal - showlines pretty much always go to the front!!) and 7 working line males behind him....he weighs about 90 pounds, is not overweight an ounce, and height is within standard - not sure if 24.5 or 25 inches, would have to look at koer and recalculate...so he is up at top of scale for correct size for the breed.
> 
> Lee


I’m sorry, when I mean size, Is height, which I believe the tallest is 26. Not too much worried about weight. Just height. Sorry about that.


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

Nscullin said:


> I can’t help with that. I’m sorry. If we weren’t in this pandemic, I’d recommend shipping from NE breeders. They have quite a few reputable people.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah I know. By the time I get a shepherd, it will be by September.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

BMurry said:


> Yeah I know. By the time I get a shepherd, it will be by September.


Good breeders have waiting lists...sometimes they have more puppies in a litter than on their list, but good puppies are rarely found available when you start looking! It does happen.....but especially if you want a male, research breeders and get on their waiting list.

Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

BMurry said:


> I’m sorry, when I mean size, Is height, which I believe the tallest is 26. Not too much worried about weight. Just height. Sorry about that.


My WL male is 25.5", 80# when he was competing. He's built like a long distance runner rather than a weight lifter. He is primarily WGWL with some Czech. If size is why you wanted a DDR, that really shouldn't be a consideration especially if you want to do sports. You need to look at drive and temperament. If you want conformation, then WL is probably not where you want to go. WL are not going to win in SV or AKC.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Mixing lines have to be done carefully depends upon who and the experience of the breeder and what they turning out. Many back yard breeders mix lines all the time and have the original shepherd look not all may have the best temperament. This forum is mostly working line people. If your and active fit and any line will do. People who say showlines are not active and couch potatoes most likely add to the gsd rescue it’s quite large. They also have to be bred to be stable.I had a real ddr great dog and first dog easy dog but probably why the thought of a poorly bred one is disturbing. Times have changed that was 20 years ago. My favorite dog and I deeply loved them all but i never met a dog with such intelligence as my American showline-human like. He has the right amount of pizazz to get the job done with style . Do anything kind of dog.
Just for fun. Video my son throwing the ball. I am taking the video I love how I am acknowledged in the video but he knows the want to keep the game going and brings it right back something.
There are moderate asl showlines most asl breeder have a few in there kennel. Just check them out.

__
http://instagr.am/p/B_paoebBSgy/


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> My WL male is 25.5", 80# when he was competing. He's built like a long distance runner rather than a weight lifter. He is primarily WGWL with some Czech. If size is why you wanted a DDR, that really shouldn't be a consideration especially if you want to do sports. You need to look at drive and temperament. If you want conformation, then WL is probably not where you want to go. WL are not going to win in SV or AKC.


Well, DDR was suggested to me for size as far as a bigger frame. But, yeah I wouldn’t show a working line in a confirmation show. I know they’re not popular and my breeder/friend told me as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok. I guess I've added what little I know. Good luck with your puppy. I'm sure you'll do great if you're committed.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Mine have showline sire, workingline dam. Both great with kids, physically active and have a good off switch.


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## BMurry (Apr 28, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Ok. I guess I've added what little I know. Good luck with your puppy. I'm sure you'll do great if you're committed.


Thanks! I welcome all knowledge of the breed. You have really been a bit help. This just gives me more time to research better for the working line


Jax08 said:


> Ok. I guess I've added what little I know. Good luck with your puppy. I'm sure you'll do great if you're committed.


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