# confused about prong collars



## tyler (Dec 2, 2008)

i do not own a dog, but plan on getting one. i do have a question involving a prong collar. i have heard that they hurt the dog and that they are very useful and dont harm the dog. which one is true?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

As with any training tool, they can hurt if used incorrectly. There is a time and place for everything. If you find you need a prong collar, they are very useful and actually are less harmful than a regular choke collar. With a prong they can still breathe, choke collars are just that and can damage the throat.


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## Fransheska (Sep 11, 2008)

i think they should only be used at last resort and if you REALLY know how to use it (a professional taught you) 
they are a great tool for those who know how to use them but are NOT supposed to be a permanent way to fix things. and dont think you can just use it and then take it off when ur dog stops pulling, the dogs KNOW when its not on and they will revert back to old habbits

just My opinion of course


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

I will not leave the house without one on Brady
he is 110lbs and it doesn't hurt him!!
I know how to use it and don't usually have to. 
But when you have idiot people who let their dogs off leash and they come charging I know I can control my dog!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Because I'm a crazy dog person who won't put my dogs through anything I won't go through, I put one on my neck and jerked it around a bit. 

It's rediculously uncomfortable when I jerk on it (on my own neck), but it's not torture. I walk my 2 GSDs at the same time so they wear prongs just in case they get the idea to go after a squirrel and drag mom down the street. I don't ever jerk on it when walking the dogs, but if they get too enthusiastic it reminds them to slow down and pay attention.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I am confused too.

My dog pulls and forges at times, and at other times walks perfectly. A few times she has darted out after a leave blowing on the snow and nearly knocked me off my feet as I slipped on a patch of ice. She is still a puppy, 5 months old, but weighs 45-50 lbs. and packs a bit of force in that little body.

Three dogs have prong collars in puppy class and judging by the way one of them was pulling against her leash I would say that she doesn't feel a thing. This was the first time this owner tried one and was very pleased with the results he received on training sessions.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

If the dog is still pulling on a prong collar, it's not really getting the right correction from it. Imagine the collar/leash on a fence post, you wouldn't just pull on it expecting it to do anything. It is a quick pop/jerk on the leash to get a correction. Someone needs to show the owner how to use it, but I don't think I'd use it on a young puppy.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It really depends on the dog. I actually use a prong on my most pain sensitive dog. Sounds like it should be the other way around, but it works awesome for him. I NEVER pop him with it, it's just a self-correcting device. He is happy to see his leash and prong come out of the drawer (we also tried the Easy Walk harness and the Gentle Leader and he hangs his head when he sees those). I realize that currently I am using it as a crutch. I really need to spend more time training him rather than managing him. But I also have to balance getting him out and exercised. A walk tends to be sufficient exercise for him, and if I'm walking him I like to walk Kenya too, or walk them to a park and let them off to play. In this situation I use a prong because I need to have full control of him when I'm walking two big dogs by myself.

My uncle had a prong on his lab and she would pull and lunge against it like it was just another nylon collar.

Lik Emoore I put one on myself, on my thigh. I gave it a jerk. I felt it but I wouldn't say it was painful.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I've re-read my post and it looks like I have used a prong collar on my puppy. I have not, yet, as I have mixed feelings. The trainer fitted Dakota with one and I tried it during one class and she did not pull one little bit.

My puppy is 5 months old, is she too young?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

No, actually I was posting about the comment you made about it being a puppy class and the puppy pulling.

I've only used a prong on a puppy that young once, but typically I don't find a need for them until they're older but it all depends on what your arms/back can handle. I would prefer that you try a gentle leader, flat collar (no choke collars) first before resorting to a prong.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

as long as the trainer shows you how to use it properly
5 months is a little too soon I think Brady was 8 months when we started using it


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Just to be exact: the prong collar DOES work on the premise of providing pain/discomfort. That's exactly why it works. The dog chooses not to do something (pulling, for example) in order to avoid the pain.

However, a collar in and of itself does not cause pain. Just putting one on a dog (especially a light collar) is not painful. The discomfort felt is when the dog chooses to lunge against it or when the owner chooses to pop the leash to cause a correction. Some dogs are tougher than others and in certain situations (for example, if the dog's adrenalin is high because they're excited about something) they may act as if they don't even feel the prong collar. People are the same way - under high-adrenalin conditions, we tend not to feel pain near as much.

As far as a training tool goes ... the prong collar is effective if you have a dog that pulls. But it's a band-aid, and if not used properly you just end up with a dog that always needs to wear a prong collar. The collar should not take the place of good training (and unfortunately does with a large number of people - they slap a prong collar on and then never teach their dog true manners). 

I wouldn't say a prong collar harms a dog, necessarily - I do think it can harm a relationship if used wrong on a sensitive dog. Tools like this should always be used with thought and consideration because they do rely on pain in order to offer control.

BTW, I would use (and do) a prong collar over a choke chain ANY day. Choke chains are on my "never use" list.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I don't like using small "puppy" prongs on puppies. I use a Good Dog collar or a prong with medium links.

Small prong links "bite" sharper than medium prong links. *Many * puppy instructors don't realize this. They just figure that small collars go with smaller dogs. Be sure that anyone who is "fitting" puppy collars knows what they're suggesting and why. 

I think that 6 months is the youngest I would suggest a prong collar, unless you have other concerns.


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## mersgolf (Dec 9, 2008)

ok, so here's my situation

Blitz is a 1 year old rescue that i've had for a week now. in foster he was with a well respected trainer here locally. she worked with me for a couple of days before i took him home. around her house he always had his prong collar on. she gave me one and showed me several times how to use it. 

When it is off of him, hes like a wild animal, when its off, he loves on you but very gentle and is much much calmer. He starts his further training with him the first weekend in january so about 2 more weeks but i don't really like the idea of over-using this collar; however i'm no where near an expert at training

any suggestions?


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

I see a lot of folks talk about prong collars on this board. We used one on our past mix but did not always like the results. her neck was so strong, nothing seemed to work.

With Clover we NEVER use one and I am a total non-believer in them. We use the Gentle Leader body harness with fantastic results for walks. The rest of the time, we only have the flat collar to hold tags and don't use them for anyother purpose.

I have some friends who use a shock collar for training. I can't say I'm an advocate, but they use it for initial training and then for reminders. One of the guys used to have a Rott who he used the collar on once, and then after that, if he had any behavior issues, he would just show the collar to the dog and he got in line. (I don't know if this meant he was abusive the first time, or more likelt, as he presented the story, the dog was just that smart)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestJust to be exact: the prong collar DOES work on the premise of providing pain/discomfort. That's exactly why it works. The dog chooses not to do something (pulling, for example) in order to avoid the pain.
> However, a collar in and of itself does not cause pain. Just putting one on a dog (especially a light collar) is not painful. The discomfort felt is when the dog chooses to lunge against it or when the owner chooses to pop the leash to cause a correction. Some dogs are tougher than others and in certain situations (for example, if the dog's adrenalin is high because they're excited about something) they may act as if they don't even feel the prong collar.
> BTW, I would use (and do) a prong collar over a choke chain ANY day. Choke chains are on my "never use" list.
> 
> Melanie and the gang in Alaska


 Agree. Onyx gets ramped up on a prong, so I use a no-slip adjustable w/her. It works fine, but I have strong hands, arms. If I didn't, I would use a GL, she was very aggitated on one though. 
At the SPCA we use chokes on most dogs, and I absolutely hate it, they pull and choke and cough-most of course are not trained yet. They are only on these for very short periods of time. When the dogs get adopted, I suggest a prong or harness,depending on the breed. The cost of using a prong or harness on all size shelter dogs prohibit them from using them, but I think it would be a great investment.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

I agree on the choke. Sofie (our last mix) had such a strong neck she broke three chokes. Max had one on when we got him from the shelter, we threw it away.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'll weigh in here. I trained my first dog with a choke collar (20 years ago). Then I got a prong for Chama and threw out the chokes. When Basu came along the prong had no effect on him and he actually pulled so hard that he poked a few holes in his neck! That is pretty extreme! What did work for him is a front clip harness called a Sense-ation harness. 
http://www.softouchconcepts.com/products/sense_sation_harness.html

It is like the Gentle Leader Easy Walk but better made. That's what I trained Rafi with too. He actually graduated to his flat collar last summer but the snow has turned him into a maniac again so we've gone back to the Sense-ation. What a HUGE difference. It is self-correcting and causes no pain, although it can cause chafing if not fitted correctly. 

The important principle for all of these dogs is that the collars are training tools. If you are dependent on a collar to get your dog to behave then you need to find a different method of training. You want them responding to you primarily and not the collar! The idea is to use the collar to help you train then and then work to the point where they don't need it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a soft touch harness(your recommendation, Ruth) and Onyx will twist and chafe her armpits with it. What tricks do you know to avoid this? I tried adjusting and she still has it looking so uncomfortable.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI have a soft touch harness(your recommendation, Ruth) and Onyx will twist and chafe her armpits with it. What tricks do you know to avoid this? I tried adjusting and she still has it looking so uncomfortable.


Do you think it is fitted correctly? Rafi's is really too big for him and i am considering sending it back and having it custom altered. It gaps on him no matter how tight I pull it. Basu's fit him perfectly but he had a very deep chest. 

I've also been thinking about how to pad the straps since that would take care of the problem. You could also try putting some anti-chafing stuff on her armpits.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yes, I think it may be too large, though now at two she is filling out more. I haven't tried it since Summer, so maybe now it will fit better. I would like to have lining for the pit area, too!


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## FlyByNight (Feb 16, 2004)

I knew someone whose dog would get nose rubs from even a properly fitted GL, and in order to correct the problem she sewed a strip of thicker felt across the band, making it both wider and softer. 

I would think you could do something similar with the Sensation harness, although I suppose a sewing machine would probably be required. 

You might also be able to make something like a halter pad or cheek savers for horse halters work.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I have a question abou this and thought I would just bump it up instead of starting a new thread









I see pictures of GSD's on here a lot with the prong collar on. I'm a little confused (and I'll admit that I have yet to train many large, powerful dogs), but if you have to use a collar like that, does it mean that they just aren't yet trained off of that collar, or do some of you just keep them on continously as backup? 
I believe in training a dog to the point where they are just on a flat collar using positive training. I am a pretty small girl, and I would personally only use it as a last resort. I guess what I'm asking is WHY do you use it, and do you personally only use it for initial training?


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

I put them on mine for the same reason and I don't use them for corrections, just a safety factor. My male WILL react if a loose dog gets in his face and he does consider little dogs as prey. I don't want him eating anyone's little dog and they seem to be one of the most likely to charge us. Just had a beagle who'd broken his tie-out do it the other day. 

The leather collars we have that are just basically to hold their tags/license will do more damage than the prong more than likely - choking effect especially in high stress situations. 

I was once advised by the owner of our local pet shop who also breeds gsds that 'if you have a shepherd you must have a prong collar' but you must also know how to use it safely.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: tylerg95i do not own a dog, but plan on getting one. i do have a question involving a prong collar. i have heard that they hurt the dog and that they are very useful and dont harm the dog. which one is true?


I love them and use them but am AMAZED how I see them being used by others when I'm out and about. Almost all the time they aren't fitted or used properly.

Best way to use them is in conjuntion with a great trainer and set of dog classes. And some people, when they start training early and with a good trainer, never have to use the prong at all.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

My 9 month old puppy - he NEEDS a prong collar and a good firm correction - he pulls and he's 70lbs of booyah with big strong tree stump legs.

If I"m walking with just my 7 year old female, she's on her regular collar. However, if the puppy is walking with her, I only have half a hand I can use to control her. She's a very good heeler and I don't think I"ve given her a correction in years.

She still wears it becuase _once in a while she sees a cat in a hedge or that lab she can't stand the sight of..._ if she pulls (which she won't with the prong on) and get the puppy going, I'm going to get hurt.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Bella wears a prong. We did obediance classes at Petsmart because I had met one of the trainers while getting petfood and found out she had 3 GSDs currently, and had owned and trained them for years. After a few weeks the trainer suggested we fit her for a prong and see how she reacts, she told me that some dogs react very poorly to them but she thought it would be helpful for Bella.

Putting the prong on her was like a miracle cure. She was about 6 months old and she went from dragging me up and down the rows and refusing to listen to ANY commands, to sitting nicely beside me and listening to any command we had been trying to teach her. I bought it that night, obviously, and we now call it her "Good Girl Collar". I don't use it every time I take her out. If we are going for a walk in the neighborhood, especially when children are out (she's quite excitable) she wears the prong. If we are going to the dog park she does not, because I have learned that she doesn't register the correction and pulls anyway.

But I would like to say agian, I don't think that every dog will react the way Bella did. I was told that it doesn't work for all dogs. If you're having a problem and you have a petsmart nearby, they're pretty cool about helping you find things that work for your dog and I've never had a problem taking stuff back (I even brought back opened packages of dry dogfood bella would not eat)


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## darga19 (Mar 4, 2009)

I disagree...once your dog is properly trained with a prong collar, you should be able to walk him without it. All it is used for is to teach him how to behave on the leash. I also would strongly recommend this over a choke chain, as a chain can damage the trachea. Some people don't believe in prong collars because they hurt the dog, but once you correct him once or twice with that collar, he'll know better and you won't need to correct him very often...at least in my experience.

Just make sure that when you use the collar that your dog associates it with positive experience. My dog gets very happy and excited when I grab that noisy collar b/c he knows it's time for a walk or jog!

Good luck.

Christian


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## adas (Nov 22, 2008)

Aloha, I have not gone to prong or ecollar as I have heard both good and bad about them. ie some dogs get corrected some are made worse so I do not think that prongs are good or bad. I would try all other positive forms of correction and there are Many Many here under searches or indeed it may be that prongs may be the solution in your case. The method I am getting the natural prey instinct under control with Rasa is teaching her to obey and respect my commands of Stop or Stay when she sees a cat. Stay or stop does not mean "no you cannot ever chase a cat, but this time you cannot chase the cat". Once in a while I tell her to chase the cat and she is happy with this compromise, knowing that chasing the cat is not off the table for good. Other more experienced handlers here may agree or disagree as I am still a newbie.


frank


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Choker, prong, electronics, head halters, martingale; they are all tools, used properly, they can be useful. Used improperly they aren't any more useful than a sieve bailing out a boat. Just a lot of work and you'll sink anyway.

DFrost


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Frank,

the kicker is some dogs never need it for training and others do. With most, you never jerk, just hold the leash lightly and if the dog decides to do something wrong, like chase a jogger, let the dog inflict the pain. 

If you have time take a few moments to find research on pronged and choke collars. If you believe the studies done are reasonably accurate you will find that because the choke collar does not inflict any immediate discomfort it does a great deal of damage to the dog's trachea, as someone else alluded to.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'll admit, I havent taken my dogs for walks for sometime, salt on the roads being my excuse. They do get exercise and we train so just not neighborhood walk. Well, today I had a couple hours off and decided I'd take them for a long walk. When we go away or training, they are on an adjustable slip martingale. But they have been on the prong collars often. I got the prong collars out today(because its been awhile walking) and they got sooo excited to see them, started doing happy circles and going to the door immediately. It was quiet in the hood, no problems other than the normal outdoor dogs that react at all thing in their view, but the power steering of the prong was what was needed today! It is a great tool and I am glad to have it in my toolbox!


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## Jay (Mar 5, 2009)

Many people are confused about the prong collar. Public perception and opinion only adds to the confusion. Now Herm Sprenger has a cover for the prong which attempts to make it appear more like a flat collar. The cover is a manufactures response to public perception of this tool. The prong collar falls somewhere between torture device and magical training tool when researched or discussed on the internet. No wonder people are confused!

I personally have used the prong with many dogs in many different applications and I also use choke chains, flat collars, harnesses and e-collars. Such tools help me communicate with the dog aiding in the teaching/learning process of molding behavior or conditioning a response. Once the desired behavior or response is achieved and proofed the tool is no longer required.

Popular as a tool for the novice handler to achieve effective corrections many trainers are quick to recommend and sell you a prong collar. Frustrated and struggling owners read stories on the internet and rush out to buy one as the cure all solution to their training or behavior problem. When the prong is placed on the dog and results are achieved the novice will often attribute this success to the “Prong Collar” when in fact the results were achieved through effective communication and training with the dog. Communication is key not the tool, this is why a professional with the same dog, same issue can produce better results in less time without using a prong. 

No offense intended in the writing of this post.

Have a great day
Jay


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Today I broke down and borrowed a friend's prong collar for Ty, 12 months old. Most days we walk about 5 km on the water front and he is very obedient and heels nicely ignoring dogs and children and bikers and joggers,, BUT the ducks, geese, gulls and squirrels are back!!! Lunch on the hoof and I was getting a sore arm and shoulder from the side ways leaps to get them. The last straw was almost being pulled into the road yesterday, today she brought her collar, he didn't go after anything.

The only problem is I don't know how to size it correctly, hers is too small and although she added a link my boy is larger than her girl. I am going to buy one and want to make sure it is the right size. I went to 3 pet stores and all suggested the same size but different amount of links. I will go buy one tomorrow. By the way I walked to all 3 pet stores with 2 different GS so they were using my 8 yr old to try on to tell me sizing, I had used the friends on her and they all suggested different fittings. Thanks


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## mhawker (May 21, 2005)

Re: fitment- http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

For those that use them, if you're worried about the public's perception, put a bandana around your dog's neck over the prong collar.

Also, as your dog starts to learn how to act correctly with the collar on- getting collar wise- you can try to put the collar on upside down (prongs facing out). They will see you put the collar on and get in the correct mindset but can slowly be taught to behave without the prongs.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Christian2009I disagree...once your dog is properly trained with a prong collar, you should be able to walk him without it. All it is used for is to teach him how to behave on the leash. I also would strongly recommend this over a choke chain, as a chain can damage the trachea. Some people don't believe in prong collars because they hurt the dog, but once you correct him once or twice with that collar, he'll know better and you won't need to correct him very often...at least in my experience.
> 
> Just make sure that when you use the collar that your dog associates it with positive experience. My dog gets very happy and excited when I grab that noisy collar b/c he knows it's time for a walk or jog!
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this. We went to a positive OB class with no prong and we wanted to get his CGC, we worked him completely on the buckle with no problem. I always have a lot of treats with me especially on walks for training. I can say this because I do put the prong on (after I had an incident where he saw a squirreal - he didn't get away from me but did pull me a bit) so I put it on him when we go on our walks, pet store and such to use it as a tool incase I need it and I very rarely use, most of the time not at all but I have it just incase a bunny decides to run by .

When I shake his prong he gets so excited so he sees nothing negative about it .


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Regarding the prong, the E-Collar and the choke collar might I add the following.

The E-Collar has its place, but I never liked being shocked and tried it on myself. I tend to think there are better alternatives. However, using an E-Collar is not something I totally dismiss.

Putting a choke collar on a dog is perhaps the most horrendous thing a person can do. When the dog pulls the damage is done to the throat, not just the skin. A European study of 100 dogs, 50 with a choke collar and 50 with a pronged collar concluded that a chock should never be used. The study done over a ten year period concluded that over 90 percent of the dogs that had choke collars on then suffered permanent or deadly injuries to their throat. As for the prong, only a few percent.

I rarely post studies, but for those that still rely on choke collars and need more then a bit of education, upon request I will post he results.

The prong is by far the most effective tool. Most say high and tight on the neck, but it depends on the dog. Some will react if they pull on a loose prong. Others of course need it positioned like the experts say.

I simply cannot imagine why anyone would recommend a choke collar. Just talk to an experienced vet about the damage these things cause. When the vet has to deal with severe injuries to the throat.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> A European study of 100 dogs, 50 with a choke collar and 50 with a pronged collar concluded that a chock should never be used. The study done over a ten year period concluded that over 90 percent of the dogs that had choke collars on then suffered permanent or deadly injuries to their throat. As for the prong, only a few percent.
> 
> I rarely post studies, but for those that still rely on choke collars and need more then a bit of education, upon request I will post he results.


I'd love to see this study. Posting the results won't tell us much without knowing how they were arrived at. Is this, by any chance, the Hallgren Study? 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1I simply cannot imagine why anyone would recommend a choke collar. Just talk to an experienced vet about the damage these things cause. When the vet has to deal with severe injuries to the throat.


I don't know that a vet is in any better place to form such an opinion than anyone else. Usually by the time neck injuries are discovered the dog has worn all sorts of collars. Trying to place a cause-effect relationship between any of them and the injury is just guessing. 

I think that the plain flat buckle collar has far more potential for causing injury than does a choke chain or a pinch collar. With the former, all of the force of a dog hitting the end of the leash is applied to the front of his throat as the leash pulls tight. 

With both the choke and the pinch, the force of such pulling is spread out around the dog's neck.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleWith both the choke and the pinch, the force of such pulling is spread out around the dog's neck.


In regards to the pinch, I assume you are talking about the live ring? A leash clipped to both rings, or the "dead ring" will give a directional correction - normally on the front of the neck when a dog pulls.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Lou,

darn you. I have no idea which study I am referring to. It was done in Europe and tracked 100 dogs over a ten year period. Fifty people used the prong, the other fifty the choke collar. The results using the choke collar were horrific and I agree. My guys will pull much harder on a choke then a pronged collar. And I believe choke collar does much more internal damage. 

As promised I will try and find the study and post.

I will also add that as a foster for rescued GSD's I deal with people that have placed the dogs in our care, and we have a wonderful trainer. So at times I use him to help me deal with the tougher cases. If I ever went to his place with a choke collar the first words would be how stupid are you, and then a few four letters would fly.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I have no problem using a slip collar and they definitely have their place in training for different purposes. I have been using them forever and have been around dogs trained with them since the 70's and have never, ever, seen a dog with any neck damage from them. The demonizing of these collars is strictly a current fad and has no basis in reality. The only time they could cause damage to a dog is by MISUSE just like anything else.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Lou,

I am suprised regarding your comments. Of course you will defend them. A pinch/pronged collar, slight tension and the dog backs off. A choke chain, the dog pulls and pulls and the injuries go from beyond a prick.

The study is attached, and I suspect some will disregard it. Hopefully, others will wonder and avoid the choke collar.

Canine Prong Collars
A GENERAL INTRODUCTION TO THE PRONG COLLAR

The best Labrador Retriever is a well trained dog. Unfortunately, Labs usually don't enter a family already fully trained. One of the most frequent training complaints is the ability for a Lab to drag its owner down the block in less than 20 seconds. It is for that reason that Lab owners seek out methods of controlling their dogs while on walks or during training session. One such method is the use of the Prong collar.


What is a Prong Collar?
A Prong collar (also called pinch collar) is a series of chain links with open ends turned towards the dog's neck so that, when the collar is tightened, it pinches the naturally loose skin around the dog's neck. When properly adjusted and used, it startles the dog and gives a sharp correction, but it is very difficult if not impossible to actually puncture the skin. And while it looks painful, it's actually less harmful to the dog than a slip or choke collar. Opponents argue that pain is never a good default way in which to train animals. Some dogs are nearly oblivious to leash corrections of any kind, but the prong collar might make such dogs pay more attention than milder collar types. The advantage of the prong collar over the choke collar is that the circumference is limited so that it is impossible to compress the animal's throat. Another advantage is that any pressure on the dog's neck is spread out over a larger area than with most buckle collars, and with all choke chains.


Study of Prong Collars in Germany
(Information about study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar)

100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong. 
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed. 
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma. 
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma. 

Type of Prong Collars

Swivel - prevents chain from getting twisted and owner must release dog by manually separating the links of the collar.

Quick Release - has a swivel to prevent chain from getting twisted and comes with a snap or special link to quickly release dog.

When should a Prong Collar be used?

A Prong collar should be used when milder training collars have not worked and your Lab is still not listening to commands. These other training collars include the flat collar, martingale collar, halter collar, or harness. Each of these training collars is less forceful and may be suitable for most owners and their Labs. For the most stubborn puller or for those Labs that have "selective hearing" when giving commands, the Prong collar can be very useful. Please use the mildest collar that gives you the results you want before trying a Prong collar.


Who should use a Prong Collar?

Any dog owner that has a stubborn Lab that need a more forceful training method. Only adults should use this type of training collar as there are some rules that a child may have difficultly following. Training must remain consistent and the alpha individual in the family should be the one to use this training method.

Please note: The pup should be at least 6 months in age before using a Prong collar for training due to development growth and age. This should not be used on young puppies.


Correct Use of a Prong Collar

Most people are misguided in the use of the Prong collar and how it should be worn. A majority of owners will secure the Prong collar loosely under the flat collar of the dog and believe this is the best fitting. Unfortunately, they are very wrong and can cause serious tracheal and neck problems for their Labs. Here are the facts:

Prong collars are ordered by weight - Extra Heavy; Heavy; Light; etc. They all come in a standard length which is adjusted to fit the neck of the dog by removing or adding links to the collar. 
Prong collars are meant to be put on and taken off before and after daily training sessions. They should never be left on the Lab all the time. That is what the flat collar is meant for. 
A snug fit is mandatory! Enough links need to be removed so that the collar fits snug. 
Positioning of the Prong collar is crucial. The collar should sit right behind the ears and up under the jaw. Not down at the shoulders. 
Rings on the Prong collar should be positioned ideally for training. For most, the rings (that you attach your leash to) should be towards the top right of the Lab's neck as to allow the trainer to be standing to the Lab's right for training. 
Links should always remain under the dog's chin for more effective training. 
Attach the leash to the dead-ring for normal dog training. The dead-ring is when the trainer attaches the leash to both the swivel ring and the stationary ring. This will allow the Prong collar to remain the same size when training and provide less force. 
Attach leash to the live-ring for more stubborn dogs. The live ring is the swivel ring alone and allows the Prong collar to tighten further on the Lab when training. Do not use the live-ring method of training unless you have first tried the dead-ring method.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: With both the choke and the pinch, the force of such pulling is spread out around the dog's neck.





> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDIn regards to the pinch, I assume you are talking about the live ring? A leash clipped to both rings, or the "dead ring" will give a directional correction - normally on the front of the neck when a dog pulls.


Yes, I'm talking about the live ring. The only time the choke collars is _"really" _a choke is when it can pull tight around the dog's neck and that is only when the leash is connected to the live ring. When the leash is connected to the _"dead ring" _ it does not pull tight and then it's worse than the flat buckle collar because the pressure is on a smaller area of the dog's neck.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I am suprised regarding your comments. Of course you will defend them. A pinch/pronged collar, slight tension and the dog backs off. A choke chain, the dog pulls and pulls and the injuries go from beyond a prick.


I don't think any tool under discussion needs defending. I'm just giving my opinion. In any case what you say about a dog's reaction to either collar depends on the dog. I've seen dogs that pull on both kinds of collar. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 The study is attached, and I suspect some will disregard it. Hopefully, others will wonder and avoid the choke collar.
> 
> Study of Prong Collars in Germany
> *(Information about study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar) * [Emphasis added]


As I thought … There is no evidence of this study outside of this discussion at this seminar that *anyone * has *ever *presented. This seminar seems to be the source for these comments, NOT A STUDY. If you can provide a link or some other valid reference to the original study (not comments made about it somewhere else) I'll be happy to change my comments and my mind. But *NO ONE * ever has. I don't think it exists, putting it firmly in the category of urban legends. Perhaps if you asked Ms. Silverton she'd have more information!? 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
> The dogs were studied for their entire lives.


This would be a voluminous study, some dogs live for nearly 20 years. One would think that there would be _*"some" reference *_ to it somewhere other than some comments allegedly made at a seminar, but there isn't. Again, I don't think this study exists. I've been hearing about it for quite some time and NEVER has anyone been able to produce it.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

As I said, denial was forthcoming and I am a bit surprised.

The prong inflicts immediate pain, the choke not until the inside of the throat is harmed. Do you disagree?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1As I said, denial was forthcoming and I am a bit surprised.


Not sure why you're surprised. If someone cites a study as "proving something" I'd expect people to ask for more information about that study. Since no one has ever been able to point me to this study with a link or some other sort of reference (other than that it was "mentioned at a seminar") I doubt that it exists. So should anyone else. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1The prong inflicts immediate pain, the choke not until the inside of the throat is harmed. Do you disagree?


I certainly do. SOMETIMES the pinch "inflicts immediate pain." Sometimes it's discomfort and sometimes it's nothing. The choke (and buckle collar, the martingale, and virtually every other tool of this nature) work similarly. Sometimes there's pain, sometimes only discomfort and sometimes nothing. For a training effect to occur with any of these tools I believe that _some discomfort _is necessary.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

My lord, your comment is like trying to say a nail and a dull bolt are the same.

Disappointed in your reply, you bet.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1My lord, your comment is like trying to say a nail and a dull bolt are the same.


Not at all. The reality is that dogs are different and at various time, under various distractions, individuals are different. A correction from a pinch collar may be completely ignored while a slight tug with a choke may give the desired results. 

Using your analogy, if you drop the "nail" onto the hand of someone with heavy calluses, they may not even feel it. If you drop the "dull bolt" onto the hand of someone who, earlier that day hit their hand with a hammer, it may bring unbearable pain. It depends on the circumstances and the distractions that are present. 

Your earlier statement, "The prong inflicts immediate pain" is simply not true. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not. The next part of your statement, ", the choke not until the inside of the throat is harmed," is just as erroneous. 

I notice that STILL you have not supplied a source for the study you claim supports your position. I still maintain that such a study DOES NOT exist.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:As I said, denial was forthcoming and I am a bit surprised.


I'm not sure what you are surprised about. The study has been often cited, but never presented anywhere - except on the Internet, where it's quoted as having come from a seminar. 

If this were a real study that had actually been done by the scientific community, it would be available in print or online, with sources cited, reference materials, pictures of the autopsies or x-rays of these dogs. Real scientific studies are costly, and usually published in scientific journals, such as the International Journal of Veterinary Medicine and the like.

Barring the complete absence of any actual references or proof of the study, I don't believe that it exists, either.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I will err on the side of common sense. My lord, you could hang my European Shepherd with a choke collar and he would barely feel it.

Would you rather get pricked with a pin, or choked with rope.


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## lupina (Mar 4, 2009)

I use the pinch collars and gentle leaders with my dogs. When I'm walking 200lbs of GSD in a neighborhood with many-many distractions (i.e. rabbits, chipmunks and squirrels are everywhere) it's my safety I'm concerned with! My current dogs are rescues. They were not trained well as puppies and get extremely excited when wildlife walks in front of them. These collars stop them from jerking me. If one of them lunges forward and I don't let go of the leash then they self-correct and get the 'pop' already mentioned. 

The gentle leader breaks the eye contact with whatever the stimuli is and works well also. 

I know there are 2 schools of thought on the pinch. Australia has 'outlawed' the prong collars...they consider them inhumane. I really have to question their reasoning (as a country) since when used properly they offer much better control than a choke chain. My dogs aren't suffering because I use the pinch...they actually get more exercise because these collars exist.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I will err on the side of common sense.


Common sense should tell you that various dogs will have various responses to various equipment. Common sense should tell you that some dogs will respond quite well to the discomfort from a choke chain and that others will respond better to the discomfort from a pinch collar. Depending on the level and balance of drives and the presence of distractions dogs may change in their responses to various collars. 

Common sense should tell you that in the COMPLETE absence of any supporting evidence for the study you referred to, that it does not exist. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 My lord, you could hang my European Shepherd with a choke collar and he would barely feel it.


For some dogs, "barely feeling" the pressure of the leash on a buckle collar is enough. Others need more. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 Would you rather get pricked with a pin, or choked with rope.


"Neither" would be my choice, but I fail to see the logical relation this question has to this discussion. 

The bottom line is that different dogs will respond to different levels of discomfort differently at different times.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

No comment. Your responses speak for themselves.


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## babyjake (Jul 14, 2008)

Okay, I have a quick question. 

I just had JD fitted for a prong collar. And he seems to like it. He knows we're going for a walk when that comes on. However, after about 20 minutes of walking. He starts to itch around his collar line. I checked, and there is no visible irritation or broken skin. Do i need to readjust?


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Just make sure the collar is high enough (not around the throat) and tight enough not to move around. I personally like pinch collars much better than the choke type (which I never use) and still use one from time to time if I think my dogs need a "reminder". Otherwise I use a brass fursaver........

If your dog isn't fully grown yet, you will need to adjust as he gets bigger. (Add links.)

__________________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - at the Bridge


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Your responses speak for themselves.


Just as they were intended to do. 

The readers (and you as well) should notice that NO ONE has supplied any information about the study that you claim exists about autopsies done on dogs that alleged that choke chains caused physical damage and that pinch collars did not. 

Therefore, its reasonable to believe that it does not exist as was claimed.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Of course you know the study exists. As an old friend and dog trainer told me. At some point, no matter how great a person's rep, you just need to say whatever and move on.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Of course you know the study exists.


If the study existed there'd be evidence of it. So far, you've shown us none and neither has anyone else reading this. Since you seem to persist in the belief that the study exists, if you want to be believed, the burden is yours to show it. Since you have not … 

You believe it exists because it agrees with your belief that choke chains cause injury. I have an open mind and await proof. If they did it would be easy to show. Yet we have nothing but opinions on the matter. 

Historian said it quite accurately,


> Quote:If this were a real study that had actually been done by the scientific community, it would be available in print or online, with sources cited, reference materials, pictures of the autopsies or x-rays of these dogs. Real scientific studies are costly, and usually published in scientific journals, such as the International Journal of Veterinary Medicine and the like.
> 
> * [In] the complete absence of any actual references or proof of the study, I don't believe that it exists, either. * [Emphasis added]


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

The prong has a 2nd use in addition to being a correction tool, it is also a stimulation tool. Quite ingenious device but one has to know the dog and the tool to get the desired result.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your comments about the prong are appreciated. I get many rescues, and some are aggressive. At my age I simply cannot control some of the dogs without a prong. More then once, with a flat collar on, if a rescue decides to go after a human or other dog they will literally drag me along. 

The prong stops that, and the last thing I need is one of my rescues attacking a person or other dog.

I also wonder if Mr. Caslte has ever admitted he is wrong; just a thought.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> I also wonder if Mr. Caslte has ever admitted he is wrong; just a thought.


The name is "C A S T L E." 

I always admit when I'm wrong. I've been training dogs for about 30 years now. When I started out I probably made more mistakes than anyone. Nowadays I rarely make them. I paid attention. 

But what we have here, except for the non-existence of a study that you claim exists that does not, is a difference of opinion, not a matter of one of us being right, and the other being wrong. 

Still awaiting ANY proof that the study that you claim exists, does. Absent that, anyone would be foolish to believe that it does.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Speaking of studies:

*Training Dogs with Help of the Shock Collar: Short and Long Term Behavioural Effects
By: Matthijs B.H Schilder ; Joanne A.M van der Borg ; Joanne A.M van der Borg
Format: Article Peer Reviewed
Year: 2004
Published in: Applied Animal Behaviour Science Mar2004, Vol. 85 Issue 3/4, p319 16p 01681591*

Summary
Behavioural effects of the use of a shock collar during guard dog training of German shepherd dogs were studied. Direct reactions of 32 dogs to 107 shocks showed reactions (lowering of body posture, high pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirection aggression, tongue flicking) that suggest stress or fear and pain. Most of these immediate reactions lasted only a fraction of a second. The behaviour of 16 dogs that had received shocks in the recent past (S-dogs) was compared with the behaviour of 15 control dogs that had received similar training but never had received shocks (C-dogs) in order to investigate possible effects of a longer duration. Only training sessions were used in which no shocks were delivered and the behaviour of the dogs (position of body, tail and ears, and stress-, pain- and aggression-related behaviours) was recorded in a way that enabled comparison between the groups. During free walking on the training grounds S-dogs showed a lower ear posture and^ more stress-related behaviours than C-dogs. During obedience training and during manwork (i.e. excercises with a would-be criminal) the same differences were found. Even a comparison between the behaviour of C-dogs with that of S-dogs during free walking and obedience exercises in a park showed similar differences. Differences between the two groups of dogs existed in spite of the fact that C-dogs also were trained in a fairly harsh way. A comparison between the behaviour during free walking with that during obedience exercises and manwork, showed that during training more stress signals were shown and ear positions were lower. The conclusions, therefore are, that being trained is stressful, that receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the S-dogs evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context. This suggests that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at stake, at ... [ Copyright 2004 Elsevier]


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTSpeaking of studies:
> 
> *Training Dogs with Help of the Shock Collar: Short and Long Term Behavioural Effects
> By: Matthijs B.H Schilder *


* 

What's this? A moderator hijacking a thread? Three pages of discussion and not ONE WORD about Ecollars and you bring this up. How absurd! 

I thought this thread was about choke chains and pinch collars?! The discussion has NEVER been about Ecollars. But since you've brought it up. … 

The Schilder study is widely regarded as the WORST piece of junk science ever to grace the pages of a scientific journal. There was NOTHING scientific about it except the way that the information was collated. The collection and observations made while it was underway was done by completely subjective methods by people who were already against the use of Ecollars. 

So as to not waste any more time on this bit of rubbish. I'll simply refer the readers to the critique I've written on it, HERE 

One thing we know, as much of a joke as this study is, at least we know it exists! Unlike the urban legend regarding a study of autopsies of dogs wearing choke chains. 

And now back to the REAL discussion. Unless this moderator wants to hijack some more. ROFLMAO.*


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTSpeaking of studies:
> 
> *Training Dogs with Help of the Shock Collar: Short and Long Term Behavioural Effects
> By: Matthijs B.H Schilder ; Joanne A.M van der Borg ; Joanne A.M van der Borg
> ...


LOL. All this proves is that when a tool is used INCORRECTLY that it will have adverse affects. What a shocker!!! (no pun intended). I could produce the same results when misusing a prong, fur saver, choke, halti or flat collar for that matter.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I can't believe that study was actually published by anyone. It's junk. Not because of what it is implying, but because of how it was done and the conclusions that are jumped too.

I can post about 10 other ones that really get into the stress response in dogs, and you might be suprised that just YOUR presence to a dog can be more stressful than the e collar. and ecollars usually only show heightened stress responses when used in unpredictable and moderate to high levels. When used like most trainers with a brain, stress chemicals and physiological responses are not much different than with any other dog.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Thanks, I have avoided the use of E-Collars. However, I suspect Mr. Castle, lord did I spell you wrong Castle, will also justify the use of an E-Collar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Thanks, I have avoided the use of E-Collars.


You favor a tool that is far more likely to cause physical injury, the pinch collar. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 However, I suspect Mr. Castle, lord did I spell you wrong Castle, will also justify the use of an E-Collar.


If this discussion was about training in general or anything to do with Ecollars, I probably would.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Youwill never convince me the tradional choke collar is a good idea. But I am a bit more open ended about the E-Collar. As you know, better then I there are so many opinions about the use of an E-Collar, it would drive a normal person, that just wants a good GSD as a companion nuts. 

If anyone wants to expand this a bit, to the use of E-Collars great.

My biggest concern with the E-Collar is their proper use. Someone is working with a dog, gets a bit frustrated and turns the thing up to high. Plus, I hate being shocked, even lightly. So I guess I assume a dog feels the same way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

After reading 7 pages of this I will weigh in:

I got a prong for Dubya because I was having surgery on my wrist and couldn't have him pulling me at all. I used it on him maybe six times. The problem was that I wasn't able to close the **** thing around his neck with my wrist all messed up.

I have been using choke chains for over thirty years (yep started when I was a little brat) and I have only nearly injured a dog once. This happened when Frodo was wearing his choke chain on the deck and fell asleep. The ring fell through the slats and turned. When he woke up stuck to the porch, he panicked. He then turned around half a hundred times trying to free himself before letting out a strangled cry. I needed the help of two of my neighbors to get him loose. He did NOT need medical treatment, and had NO further affects. I think all the hype about choke chains being bad, used as a training tool while you are training, is huey. 

I tried to use an e-collar for a bitch that would not, could not stop barking. I put it on the dog. It did not work wonders. In fact, after one day I took it off her because I felt it inhumane. 

What bothers me most about the prong collars, is that I see really cute puppies start out in puppy classes and they are all fun and piss and vinegar. Somewhere between the fourth and sixth week of classes, people start showing up with prong collars on their puppies. I follow these puppies through basic obedience, and then advanced obedience classes. The prongs are still there. I see them struggle in CGC because they cannot leave the **** prong behind. And I KNOW that they will arrive for the CGC test with a prong on, and they will leave the CGC test, paperwork for passing in hand, but with a prong on the dog. Sunday I was at a specialty show, and people had prongs on their dogs. I wanted to tell them to leave the grounds. 

It was suggested that I put a prong collar on Ninja, both the girls were having a good time pulling. They are as strong as freight trains. I refused. In two weeks, neither girl was pulling. It is so unnecessary in my opinion. I started to use a choke chain on the girls, not so much to check them, but rather to keep them from slipping their collars. Normally, I use martingales for this, but I could not find them and the chokes were handy. 

I have used a halti-collar on Dubya. If I did not want my hand jerked around, the halti collar was not the thing to try. He jerked and he pulled and he yanked and he rubbed the **** thing against everything he could find. He HATED the halti. One would think that I dipped it in battery acid. The "positive" trainer that had me remove the prong and put THAT on him, said: "the ones that really need it tend to object most strenuously." Bull pucky!!! Talk about hurting the neck. The weight and jerks to that dog's spine with that collar on him did him no favors. 

My collar of choice is the martingale. It really cannot be abused. Well, I suppose if you shove it down your dog's throat or into its ear, you can. But it is not really a training collar. It is NOT used to give corrections. I use it only to ensure that the dog does not slip its collar and get loose in a parking lot (having had that happen once with a flat collar). And, so that the flat collar and tags will still be affixed to the dog if we have an equipment failure. 

If we have an equipment failure though, my dogs will come to me and wait for me to reconnect. I know this because of my carpul tunnel, I drop things. I drop the dogs' leashes. They feel that the leash has been dropped and they turn and come back to me so I can find the clip and pull the leash up from there so it is not tangled in their legs. 

My dogs do not seem to have the same fixation with squirrels and rabbits. Arwen went after a rabbit once, I called her to heel and she came back. She was off-lead at the time. Right now I would not trust Ninja not to go after a dog though. The rest I am not worried about at all. 

So I will used slip collars, choke chains, or martingales with my dog so that I do not have to connect to the flat collar that holds their tags. I think using a prong or an e-collar or a head collar is pretty much a cop out. However, if you have a dog that is very dominant, the prong collar may mean less fighting with the dog, control without yanking and pulling and bitching at the dog. I think dogs lose respect for owners that fight with them and lose. A leader does not fight. So if the prong collar reduces the irritable fighting that happens and allows the dog to be excersized and trained, then so be it. 

So far none of my dogs really need that level of control. And, I want my dogs to listen to my commands, not my arms. I do not wish to control my dog through his neck, but through his mind and heart. At home my dogs do not wear collars, they come in, they go out at my command, they kennel, they play in the yard, they go into their crates when I open the gates and doors and motion with my hand. They drop toys and they let me take something out of their mouth without having to catch them or get bit (if they were choking, I could understand them biting, different story). Somehow, I simply think that putting a biting collar on a dog for power steering will make me lose respect for myself which will make my dogs lose respect for me.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your comments are appreciated. As I stated before, I think the dofference between a pronged collar and a choke chain is large, and I willni=ut use a choke collar. I guess I could find more studies, which Mr. Castle disregards, that express concerns about the choke collar.

No one should be allowed to bring a puppy to training class with a prong collar or choke collar on. As for the class or classes you were at, I wonder why. 

As for the prong, and I have have mentioned this in a prior post. Our rescue had a dog named Zoie. Zoie was fine in my home, but would attack about any human or animal she saw. I had asked for advice on this board, but never got any responses. The trainer for our rescue group did response, and frankly using the prong he was tough with Zoie. After the session or trianer reminded me that this dog was scheduled to be killed, so you break the dog down and start over, or kill the animal.

Zoie has since been adopted, and is comfortable with a family that has kids and other pets. 

I tend to agree the E-Collar is inhumane, perhaps because most folks do not use it correctly, or perhaps it is just unhumane.

I am curious, because you make it sound like your dogs are the best on the planet. How many have you had as a foster or adopted, that have histories of biting and/or attacking, be it humans or other dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jazzie I fostered for two years. She bit me, but that was while she was fighting with Arwen. Not her fault. 

Frodo, I put down, he snapped and then he bit me. He was my dog. He had a major accident as a youngster and was in increasing pain. His fuse got shorter and shorter. I could not walk him or excersize him because of the injury. Putting him down was the right thing to do, though it was completely my fault. He was my first shepherd. 

Arwen got me once while fighting with Rushie. Arwen corrected the eleven month old pup, and he pounded her roundly. My hand got in the way. 

Dubya was actually the only one that was dog aggressive with outside dogs. He never bit anyone or any dog. 

I have separated Arwen and Jenna, Jenna and Heidi, Dubya and Rushie, Rushie and Tori, Heidi and Whitney, all of these were without any blood between them. Babs cut Tori's ear, but that was Tori's fault completely. When you live with a bunch of intact bitches and a couple of dogs, they may squabble. 

Besides myself, I have never had a dog of mine bite a person or an outside dog. This is not because they are wonderful or wonderfully trained, it is because I can manage them, and perhaps have been lucky. I do take all of my dogs to training classes and work with all of them. They listen to me. They are not perfect. I know them, and respect them. I do not underestimate them. And I am not lax in security. If I have ANY reservation, than I err on the side of caution, even if that means pissing people off.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would not knowingly take on a dog with a bite history. I cannot afford the liability. 

There are plenty of dogs out there put down all the time that have good temperaments, when they run out, I suppose If I was looking to add a dog, I might consider one with a bite history. 

My current opinion is that I could not possibly rehome a dog with a bite history. Even if I felt 100% safe with the dog and felt the dog was rehabilitated, I cannot guarantee that the situation where the dog is going will remain stable and good for the dog. If a dog can be driven to bite once, then it can be driven to bite again. 

About Zoie, no, I would not break a dog down to keep it alive. That she has been successfully rehomed to a family with children, does not make me jump up and down shouting hooray. I worry about the children and the children's friends. A GSD that gets a bite history and contributes to the breed's negative reputation, should be kept by its owners, rehabilitated, and not trusted; or put down. 

I know that is not a popular belief. But a family that has had their six year old go through plastic surgery and councelling because of their mistakes with their dog, if they keep the dog, will NEVER let anything of that magnitude happen again. If they give that dog to a friend, rescue, trainer, etc., the original offense will be forgotten or played down, and and people will become lax with their security and the dog might make another serious blunder. When it does, the damage is done. The original owners should consider whether they are up to managing and training their dangerous dog, if not, they should humanely euthanize the dog and be there when it happens. 

People shouldn't just think that they can get rid of the dog if it behaves badly. Reality bites, but the fact is if you do not train and manage your dog, than euthanasia is a likely outcome. The idea of putting a dog in shelter and letting it hang out there for a week or so, and then it being gassed or euthanized is horrendous. People should put the dog down, should take it to the vet and be there with it. THAT will make them realize that they need to do it differently if they choose to get a puppy again.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> I guess I could find more studies, which Mr. Castle disregards, that express concerns about the choke collar.


I welcome any studies that you'd like to provide. BTW so far you've provided NONE. So your statement that you "could find *more *studies …" is a non sequitor. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 No one should be allowed to bring a puppy to training class with a prong collar or choke collar on.


Pretty much depends on what definition of "puppy" one is using. I know some who call dogs of all ages "puppies." 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 I tend to agree the E-Collar is inhumane, perhaps because most folks do not use it correctly, or perhaps it is just unhumane.


Any tool can be used so that it become "inhumane." To make this statement about JUST the Ecollar is to defy common sense and reason.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Puppy classes usually start here at ten to 14 weeks old and go for six weeks. Usually around the fourth week the prongs come out. I will not use a correction collar of any type on a puppy less than six months old. And even then, I might use a slip collar or choke chain, but not to apply corrections so much as to keep them from turning and slipping a flat collar. 

Under six months puppies should not be expected to do anything but positive, rewards based training. After six months, a well-timed correction may be useful so long as it is not so dramatic that it scares the dog. Usually a voice correction, an "Eh!" and then a command does wonders. 

If you saw away at the bit in a horse's mouth, they will develop a hard mouth. Then you HAVE to use your muscles to direct him. I am not so sure that dogs are all that different. That includes bitching and yelling at a dog, they grow deaf to nagging too.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: selzerIf you saw away at the bit in a horse's mouth, they will develop a hard mouth. Then you HAVE to use your muscles to direct him. I am not so sure that dogs are all that different. That includes bitching and yelling at a dog, they grow deaf to nagging too.


Above is the most important information in this entire thread. The next pup I get (which hopefully will not be for another 5+ years at least) will go through foundation work completely differently.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1No one should be allowed to bring a puppy to training class with a prong collar or choke collar on. As for the class or classes you were at, I wonder why.


Depending on your definition of "puppy" I disagree. You should be more specific with your remarks. When you say "puppy" do you meen 4 months old? 6 months old? 2 years old? When I say "puppy" I'm referring to a dog who is growing and is still rowdy like a puppy. Bella was almost 3 when I stopped referring to her as a puppy. Would you suggest I didn't put a prong or choke on her until she was 3?



> Originally Posted By: Timber1I guess I could find more studies, which Mr. Castle disregards, that express concerns about the choke collar.


Personally, I'd like to see any emperical studies regarding the use of a choke collar. Since you made the offer, it would be great if you could follow through. It'd be really interesting to start new threads for them (please post links to those threads here, of course) so that they could be discussed in a scientific light.

Oh and by the way, if it doesn't discuss the animals used, the methods used, and controls you shouldn't bother posting them. If we don't know how the findings were found, we cannot determine if the findings are real or junk.


The problem is, people reference things they do not fully understand. I do not claim to be an expert on dog training and have never read a study done on one because GOOD resources are not readily available to me. For members of this forum who have GOOD resources readily available, I think it would be great to make them available to other members so we can make conclusive decisions based on science.



I strongly agree that a prong collar is a great tool when used correctly on the right dog, and I use one with Bella. However, my first childhood GSD and my sister's childhood Dobie were both effectively controled using a choke. Neither seemed to sustain damage from the use of a choke collar. Had they been autopsied, maybe there would have been some damage found, but it didn't effect their functioning. Please note that just because there is a statistically significant effect of something in a scientific study doesn't mean that there is a practical significance to the finding.

A great teacher once told me: I could measure every woman's hight in the US, and maybe the average would be 5'6". Then I could measure every woman's height in Canada, and maybe the average would be 5'5.75". Then I would come up with statistically significant data saying that women in the US are taller than women in Canada, and I could tell everyone I know that Canadian women are shorter than American women! But what difference does 1/4" actually make in the real world?


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Some replies just make me laugh. A puppy ten months or less, and never a prong. Does that satisfy you. Two or three years, no, the dog is not a pup. Of course I still refer to all my guys as pups, including Paris Hilton (honest) who is a bit over six years old.

As for studies, perhaps it is time to do your own research.

Regarding your comment about the height of woman, just another chuckle.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Some replies just make me laugh.


Me too, especially this next one of yours. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 As for studies, perhaps it is time to do your own research.


Timber1 somehow forgets that SHE is the one who claimed that a study exists. Now that she's been called on to prove it by providing information for it and has been found wanting, she thinks it's fitting to tell others to go find it. ROFLMAO. 

When you claim that something exists, the burden is ON YOU to prove that it does if you want to be believed. It's not up to someone else to find it and post if for you. 

Let me remind you that earlier you wrote this, _ (especially pay attention to the last sentence which I've emboldened) _


> Quote: A European study of 100 dogs, 50 with a choke collar and 50 with a pronged collar concluded that a chock should never be used. The study done over a ten year period concluded that over 90 percent of the dogs that had choke collars on then suffered permanent or deadly injuries to their throat. As for the prong, only a few percent.
> 
> I rarely post studies, but for those that still rely on choke collars and need more then a bit of education, *upon request I will post he results. *


You've been requested several times. We're still waiting for those results! So far all you've done is to repeat an urban legend. NOT ONE BIT of evidence that such a study exists.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: selzerPuppy classes usually start here at ten to 14 weeks old and go for six weeks. Usually around the fourth week the prongs come out.


Wow, really? That means they're using prong collars on puppies from 14-18 weeks old - yikes! If you need a prong for a puppy that young you haven't done a very good job of training up to that point. Not you personally Sue, since you obviously don't subscribe to this policy, but I don't think much of a trainer that's teaching people to show their puppies what NOT to do without giving them much of a chance to learn what TO do first. That's just lazy.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1A puppy ten months or less, and never a prong. Does that satisfy you.


Yes, as a matter of fact it does. I've heard people cut off the "puppy" age at 6-7 monts and at a year, but never at 10 months. I expect explicit details WHENEVER someone is making a claim.




> Originally Posted By: Timber1As for studies, perhaps it is time to do your own research.


I, too, find it laughable that you have made at least TWO requests to provide studies backing up your claims, and yet when we ask you to provide the information you retract and tell us to do our own research. Is it because you don't like my terms of research? It is important to have access to the methods section of any research to determine it's scientific validity. IF (and that's a big if) the research you mention actually exists, we need to know on what terms the research was done. Did the "researcher" control for how often and how long walks were, making sure that dogs who were walked with prongs and dogs who were walked with chokes were walked equally? Did the researcher make sure that choke collars were used properly?



> Originally Posted By: Timber1Regarding your comment about the height of woman, just another chuckle.


If you'd take the time to THINK about the posts others are making and your comments to them, you might react differently. The point is the same, just because there is a significant finding doesn't mean it has any implications in the real world. Knowing the methods and exact results will help us figure out whether this is true of any research you post.

And maybe, just maybe, if you can post some real research you will allow other board members to educate you on the actual findings so you don't continue to spread bad information to many dog owners who need help and get enough bad information.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Silly as always Lou; when did I have my sex change operation. 

You just can't let go; which says a lot more about you then me.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> I don't think much of a trainer that's teaching people to show their puppies what NOT to do without giving them much of a chance to learn what TO do first. That's just lazy.


Not lazy at all. Both sides, "what to do" and "what not to do," can be trained at the same time. No need to split the training into just one or just the other.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Silly as always Lou; when did I have my sex change operation.


In the absence of you using your name or providing any other information as to your gender, I assumed (yes I know) by the tone of your posts that you had gotten some sand into your private parts. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 You just can't let go;


I can, but I choose not to. I think that it's YOU who "just can't let go." You started the exchange about a study with a claim that it exists when it does not. My posts are RESPONDING to yours. If you hadn't made the comment that I'm now responding to, I'd not have written this post. Interesting that you think it's on me to stop responding to you. ESPECIALLY when you posted first on this and my posts are in response to yours. ROFLMAO! 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 which says a lot more about you then me.


Does it? You keep referring to the existence of a study that you have never provided the slightest bit of evidence for the existence of, despite being asked for it several times by several list members. Perhaps when you admit that you were wrong and that this study does not exist I'll let it go. 

I just don't want you to continue to spread BS information to those who ask for help and may be fooled into thinking that such a study proves something when it does not even exist.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> ...


With a prong? On a 14 week old puppy? That's the exact circumstance my post was referring to - you left out the context by copying just the last two sentences and responding to them as if they stood alone, which they did not. 

If you disagree with me and think it's perfectly okay to use a prong on a 14 week old puppy, feel free to say so. If not, please don't pick apart my post in order to make it sound like I'm saying something I'm not. Thanks.


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