# Foundations and kennel blindness



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

I’ve been thinking again (oh boy) 

In the last year, a kennel I respect noticed an ongoing hip related issue in their litters. (I don’t know if they are on this forum but feel free to PM me if you are  ) They traced the issue back to a foundation female and chose to retire the line, including pups they originally held back for the program. These dogs all showed incredible promise temperament-wise, but lacked in health. Now they are in the process of finding a new foundation female. Unfortunately, the delay likely means the traits they wanted to maintain in the male they were using might also be lost (no word on whether they froze semen).

Another kennel I have been watching (again feel free to PM me if you are on here) had a strong foundation female who met all their requirements for health and temperament, but had over large ears. They chose to continue breeding but made sure to check ear conformation for all males.

This started me pondering over a few parts of breeding. It is a long term game. No matter how much care you take in your pairings and no matter how stellar those two dogs are, they may not produce well. There is no way to know until after the progeny have been born and matured. By then you may have one or two litters on the ground you are now responsible for. It also means that your entire program may need to be stopped if an issue arises that cannot be allowed or changed by using a different male.
It has to be incredibly difficult to recognize that your years of work need to be entirely scrapped, that you need to start over on your founding lines. But as difficult as it is to do so, how many people refuse to see that the issue is there to begin with? 

On that same note, at what point is an issue so large that is needs to be eliminated? I would imagine health issues qualify as an automatic stop sign. However, for small conformation flaws like wide/large ears, it seems wrong to throw out the baby with the bath water but instead to work to pair with males who might produce pups with good ears. 

Kai is from a line that has been known to produce some level of dog reactivity in every pup. I am not sure if I would consider this an acceptable trait (since so far the dogs I’ve met have been able to be managed and trained to some neutrality) to try and breed out, or if it should be a flag. (I am NOT breeding her, but using her line as a way to learn) 

I am not sure if I have a question here or not. The difficulty of the decisions a breeder needs to make on several levels has just been on my mind.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Well this is a timely post in my world. 

I was just bitten this week by a dog from a friends breeding program. Her breeding program has gotten very small, as her bitches have not been producing, have had c-sections, not getting pregnant. She is now left with 'all her eggs in one basket (bitch)'. Although she does have a male puppy with family that was used last year and produced well. So essentially backed herself into a corner, all her eggs in one basket situation, temperament issues with a couple pups that were produced (not from the exact same pairings, but common ancestry). Breeders have to be able to plan for generations down the line if they want to be in this long term. I have more dogs in my breeding program, that dont live with me, than do. They are in homes that will be theirs forever, so if for some reason they are not breeding quality, or dont produce well, they are washed. I am constantly evaluating and reevaluating the dogs. Looking for potential sires to compliment my girls. Bringing in new bloodlines so as not to get bottle necked, etc.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

topic reminds me of this reply that i had to another thread about breeders & medical clearances…


Fodder said:


> once upon a time, not very long ago, only hips were the standard… then hips/elbow, then hips/elbow/DM became the bare minimum. as medicine advances, and more test become available, the standard evolves and it can take some people longer than others to get on board….for a myriad of reasons. the people who have the power to change or expedite things are the puppy buyers. whether breeders believe in the tests or feel it’s relevant to their lines….or not.
> 
> *but one thing that crossed my mind…. even tho it’s for the greater good of the breed, there are sometimes devastating results and moral/ethical dilemmas that can come from sudden/increased changes in testing. i work for a large service dog organization that has their own breeding program… this past year a new test became available and we “accidentally” found out that some of the dogs in our lines carried a gene for some condition that has the potential to effect their eyesight. even tho we weren’t seeing any trends of dogs being retired early due to poor eyesight, the organization still made the huge decision to eliminate that gene from our breeding pool. this meant retiring some very successful breeding dogs and interrupting/ending the training for at risk dogs and puppies already on the ground.*
> 
> ...


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

@Fodder The technology we have now to screen potential illnesses is wonderful. Yet at the same time, I absolutely agree it can be detrimental to a breeder, especially the smaller scale ones. Every couple of years it seems Embark comes out with a new genetic screening. They just announced another one recently, although it isn’t for the gsd. While I still believe (now, I used to not think this way) breeders should try to use every tool available, i completely understand those who have not yet (or may not ever) incorporated them. Not do I think I can fairly comment further on their decision. 
I did want to ask, in that situation did they inform the owners of the risk? Or was it a genetic issue that appears at birth? 

@vomlittlehaus Co-ownership seems like a valuable practice to keep your bloodlines varied. Especially since it isn’t always health issues of the progeny that stop a line, but temperament problems and issues in pregnancies even taking (as you just mentioned). If you don’t mind me asking, how are you able to keep track of the temperaments of the dogs you co-own? Do the people who own them live nearby? Or are they people whose opinions you can take more for face value?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> I did want to ask, in that situation did they inform the owners of the risk? Or was it a genetic issue that appears at birth?


For transparency, everyone associated with the organization was informed of the findings, decision and actions. On a case by case basis, clients with dogs known to carry two copies of the gene were made aware, but our policies remained the same as far as monitoring all of the teams in the field annually, and since the announcement, no guides have been retired or voluntarily returned because of it to date. the impact was mainly felt within the breeding colony, offspring 0-20 months that were already born but not yet working and incoming clients since the lower dog numbers increased their wait time.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Fodder said:


> …the impact was mainly felt within the breeding colony, and offspring 0-20 months that were already born but not yet working.


 I have had the opportunity to get to know a women who has raised prospective guide dogs for many years. I can only imagine the impact their decision to retire those prospects made… and the difficulty of the decision. 

Responsible breeding is not for the faint of heart.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’m glad you mentioned genetic dog reactivity. People always blame the handlers, but some lines tend to produce more reactivity than others. I know someone with an excellent protection dog but he must be the only dog in the room. He is alright outside with enough space, but never indoors which makes it hard to visit a vet or a store.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> I’m glad you mentioned genetic dog reactivity. People always blame the handlers, but some lines tend to produce more reactivity than others. I know someone with an excellent protection dog but he must be the only dog in the room. He is alright outside with enough space, but never indoors which makes it hard to visit a vet or a store.


The majority of Kai’s littermates (those I’ve met), including her, have some level of reactivity. Her uncle’s litter were reactive to some extent. An additional litter from her uncle’s generation were reactive, etc. I am pretty confident which dogs are contributing this trait… I believe we are doing handlers a disservice by not considering a genetic factor in reactivity. Thankfully it seems in my case, the dogs are manageable and can be trained into neutrality with consistent training. Now there could be an additional discussion there on what exactly makes them reactive (low thresholds, etc) but at the end of the day, I believe we should be upfront about potential temperament issues (or quirks depending on your view) in lines.

On that note, I’ve seen various people suggest or warn away from specific litters based on this very topic. I appreciate those of you who have done so.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

@Wunderwhy6 my co-owns are close by. One is at my house now for a week. I have them at handling class, at shows, at competitions. I take the lead on what we need to be doing with them, their owners are usually being mentored in the breed and will carry on the lines some day (with proper titles and health testing).


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

vomlittlehaus said:


> @Wunderwhy6 my co-owns are close by. One is at my house now for a week. I have them at handling class, at shows, at competitions. I take the lead on what we need to be doing with them, their owners are usually being mentored in the breed and will carry on the lines some day (with proper titles and health testing).


It sounds as if you are working with several lines then instead of a couple of founding females? 

Hopefully my questions in this thread make sense. I’m trying to wrap my brain around all of the decision making. I tend to process while I “talk” (type). A sometimes unfortunate habit.


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