# No Recall?!!!



## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I need some serious help and suggestions on recall with Jake.
His trainer has told me is a bit stubborn already....he is 6.5 months. He has been through puppy class and is currently in beginners class. He is very smart and picks up EVERYTHING really quick.

When I do recall I do it in either two ways. If I am alone I have him on a lead and toss a treat away from me, after he gets to the treat I say "Jake Come" and he returns to me to get a treat. If I have help I have him again on a lead while someone holds his collar I walk to the end of the lead and then I again say " Jake Come" and he comes running to me, when he gets to me I give him a treat and again lots of praise. The problem is he KNOWS exactly what to do when we play this "game" and he complies. 

My problem is when we are "trying" to play fetch or something when he isn't on a lead I CAN NOT get him to even look up at me when I say his name. He ignores me if I am in a certain proximity of him...I have to leave his sight (hide behind something ) and then call him and he will come looking for me. If he can see me he just doesn't bother to come to me.....is this because he is with me so much? 

How do I work on this? Any suggestions please.....


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Has he always done this or is it an age thing? Wolfie used to always come when called, but now he ignores me or runs. I am thinking his is a stage of defiance that they tend to go through.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

It happens to everyone lol. Long line and long flexi are your friends. Don't put yourself and him in the situation where he can ignore you. Dottie's agility instructor likens practicing recalls to putting pennies in the piggy bank. You just have to keep doing it over and over and over again and one day it will pay off


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Sounds like the 7 mo old 'butthead' stage. I had them on a prong collar and started using a clicker at that age and they both responded well.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Does he do well with "Stay"? Can you have him sit/stay, walk away and then ask him to come? 

Our instructor made us develope a very solid stay before we even began to tackle come. What that did was make come the release of stay, which was more fun (treat) then stay therefore the pup always chose to come quickly and solidly. 

For Hondo, 'Come' is a demand that requires him to come in front (or at the heel position) and sit. As I live in a rural area I use a lot of 'here' which just requires him to come back to me but he doesn't have to sit or stay within reach. When I tell him "here" he always races over and either wraps himself around me or tags me and runs around some more. My point is, I really try hard to make me a fun location to be in. 

I have only one hard response for my dog that means he is in big trouble. It trumps all other commands and means I'm about to get off my big butt and get him. If he is refusing to come or ignoring a command (which will place him or others in danger i.e. chasing a squirrel/cat/horse) I use "Nien Dog!". At 1 year old, he still freezes when he hears it. But I make sure I don't use it often. And it doesn't work for hubby. 

Remember there is no training meathod that is a one size fits all. The hard part is finding what makes your pup respond.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Ditto what Jason says  

When teaching a dog to respond to name and to recall, I never practice without a line on the dog (flexi, long line, leash.. something to enforce my command to come!). 

It may be a bit of a hassle now, but it'll pay off in the long run


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

2 quick thoughts...

when he's on lead, and not looking at you. say his name, and then reward him with a treat just for looking at you. 

use a extra tasty treat to train come. i used chopped up chicken. then every time i say "cody come" he thinks he's gonna get chicken. I should add I made sure i had chicken in my hand for the 1st 3 months or so every time i said "cody come"...so now he's brain washed *evil laughs*

did you try TOTW yet?


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

He has a good STAY, but I have never used Come after a Stay command....I have always released him with 'OK'.

That's just it, recall on lead is the only way I do it to decrease/eliminate failure and he comes every time.....he knows when the long lead comes out what game we are playing,,
How often should I do recall and how long each time?


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

Let me know what works for you. Brody knows when I dont have a treat and only sometimes will he come. We practice the recall game every day. My husband and I stand opposite sides of the house and just call him back and forth. But when he gets done with one of us he automatically runs to the other because he has figured out the game lol. So now I go and hide and he comes and finds me. I've been doing every other call without a treat just so he doesn't expect it all the time. I think it just takes a while. I was trying to remember when Zella, my pitbull, started to really listen, and it took a good while. She was a handful so I know Brody will catch on soon enough! But I'm scared to let him off the leash completely at the beach...I do think I'm going to try a longer lead like suggested above! Good luck!!


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I think the key now would be to try to make it not so much a game.... but random. Do something else when he is out on the long line. Then randomly ask him to come. Then praise and treat. Perhaps play a game of tug, or fetch (depending on how long the leash is). Also try it in different places. Think Green Eggs and Ham. "I will not eat them in a box, with a fox, in a house, with a mouse....." Not exactly, but he should also learn recall in different places and situations. So on the long line do it in the house, in the back yard, in the front, down the sidewalk, in a park, at a friends house. Then when you think of situation... don't make it too hard.... but maybe when he sees a dog in the distance, when a friend is over, if a car is driving down the road, neighbors are outside. Playing with another dog, and seeing a cat would be harder ones. Once he master all of that on lead.... Go back to square one off leash. 

In your house, back yard.... etc.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Also.... Since he is young, you want a GREAT recall and I wouldn't remove food unless he has it down perfect, and even then you would want to give treat every so often. A random interval reward system is the best for maintaining a behavior.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I will take less then GREAT at this point....LOL
He is soooo good on lead when we practice....but if we are in a fenced area and I'd like him to come to me....NO WAY, he just continues sniffing etc....BUT if I am out of his sight he freaks and will coming running to find me. 
I know he is young BUT he should be more tuned in to me then he is...
How long should the lead be at this point? Seems the further I am from him the more likely he is to come running to me.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

My breeder/trainer's rule for the recall, was that what you had to offer always had to be better than what he was doing before. We used lots of treats and tug games as rewards. If I was going to be working on the recall while playing in the yard I would leave her dragging a long line - she would forget about it, but I could stand at the end and grab it if she didn't come. If it was going to be something less fun than what she was doing, like leaving the other dog she was playing with I always just went and got her where she was at. I would also do recalls when she was playing (often had to grab her long line because she wouldn't come and make her come to where I called) and then give her a treat and let her go again, so that she knew just because I called the fun wasn't over. But around Jake's age she definitely went through a stage where keep away was always more fun than coming and it was pretty discouraging. Now she has a 90% recall when she's chasing squirrels even, but it continues to be a work in progress! 
The hardest part is setting them up for success all the time - I found it so easy to get frustrated and call her - then when she came I had to praise her, even though I wanted to wring her neck =)


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## df1960 (Nov 6, 2009)

For us what has worked is I have treats on me at all times and if I'm out in the yard with the dogs and they come and see me on their own they get a treat, when I give them the treat I'll say come and maybe back up a step and give them a treat, I give lots of treats, so a lot of times treats are regular kibble. I also take them (two boxers and 1 GSD) on off leash walks, once I tell them to go play they always come back because they know there'll be a treat sometimes they come back too often and I'll tell them to go play and every so often when I know that one of them is coming in my direction and there's no way they'll turn I say "come boy" so most of the times there's no command but sometimes there is and I do the same thing when we're in the yard or in the house. I know Hawkeye is only 6 months old but so far this has been working, it works for my 5 year old and my 2 year old boxer also. I'm sure Hawkeye is learning from them also.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

How long does this stage last???? Where anything is more exciting?


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

NO COMMENTS.. JUST SHARING YOUR PAIN.. Sorry for the caps, but as you said, if he has a leash, or 30' lead, he turns and runs for me, as soon as he is off the leash or lead.. his nick name is "D*** dog".. said with a smile of course..I SO feel your pain..


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Thanks for letting me know I am not alone.

He ALWAYS COMES WHEN HE IS ON THE LEAD.....he fully understands the game, sometimes when working w/another person they can barely hold him back before I call him. I am so frustrated, if he is off lead to play and I want to bring him in, I have to hide and call him.....and then CATCH him....


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

I can't remember exactly when it all changed - it came and went for a while, but when Kokoda hit a year it was like I had a different dog! Everything just started clicking, and her drives went WAY up - which helped because her ball became a lot more interesting than it had been. She went through a phase at about 16 months for a few weeks again where she was terrible! If I told her to sit, she just stared at me with a "No, what are you going to do about it" look. But a month later I have my dog back. 

I hear you though - last month I was ready to rip my hair out. Whenever K has "gone bad" I never let her out without dragging the long line - at that point it wasn't about training, it was the only way I could ever catch her!


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> Thanks for letting me know I am not alone.
> 
> He ALWAYS COMES WHEN HE IS ON THE LEAD.....he fully understands the game, sometimes when working w/another person they can barely hold him back before I call him. I am so frustrated, if he is off lead to play and I want to bring him in, I have to hide and call him.....and then CATCH him....


 
Hopefully in a couple of months, it will be you and I telling others not to worry..

hopefully :crazy:


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I hope so........I thought the "butthead" stage wasn't till about 11 months...


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

I almost always take Minna out front off-leash until this week it was like her recall suddenly disappeared. Two weeks ago she would do it everytime, and this week it was all of a sudden a "I don't have to listen to you" response. needless to say that kicked recall training into high-gear.
Part of her recall training includes her in sit-stay; and I walk to the end of the lead (about 30 feet) and say 'come' and she comes. I've started doing this blind, she has to sit-stay facing the other direction....she doesn't like this one as much but she's doing well with it. Granted she's 4 months old, so I'm not really sure how long her 'stay' command should be good for. But she will hold it with me out of site for at least 20 seconds...it's impressive.




Lilie said:


> Does he do well with "Stay"? Can you have him sit/stay, walk away and then ask him to come?
> 
> Our instructor made us develope a very solid stay before we even began to tackle come. What that did was make come the release of stay, which was more fun (treat) then stay therefore the pup always chose to come quickly and solidly.
> 
> ...


How'd you train the "nien dog" command to where the dog understood that that means you better stop right this second and listen????


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I always thought that teaching recall from a Stay wasn't a good practice because you already have the dogs attention. Comments?????


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

That's probably true. I do training both ways-- from a stay position, and when she's distracted.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I found that Jake's recall (the little he had) has gotten worse. When he was a bit younger he was more anxious to come me....now it's a whole different story. I need some ideas on how to work on recall by myself....with no one holding him.


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> I found that Jake's recall (the little he had) has gotten worse. When he was a bit younger he was more anxious to come me....now it's a whole different story. I need some ideas on how to work on recall by myself....with no one holding him.


You know what's kind of random. Minna had fantastic recall outside two weeks ago....and then this week decided she will look but makes the decision not to come. However, two weeks ago inside the house she wouldn't come when called so I started working on it in the house and that got better and now when we're in the house she'll come, but outside she won't. I would rather her come to me when we're outside the house....i think it's getting better though.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is his hearing ok? he doesn't come or look
at you when he's off leash. does he hear you?
when i was teaching my dog to come he was always
leashed or on a long line. i didn't give him
a chance not to obey. i would call my dog and pull
him towards me at the same time.

sometimes my GF would hold the pup with
him facing me. she was 2' away or so. i would call him
and treat and praise. then i would hold the pup and turn him towards
my GF and she would call him, treat and praise. a lot
of times when we did this exercise i would say "go to Rosie"
and my GF would call him at the same time. not only did
we teach him come but we taught him to go to us by name.



jakeandrenee said:


> My problem is when we are "trying" to play fetch or something when he isn't on a lead I CAN NOT get him to even look up at me when I say his name. He ignores me if I am in a certain proximity of him...I have to leave his sight (hide behind something ) and then call him and he will come looking for me. If he can see me he just doesn't bother to come to me.....is this because he is with me so much?
> 
> How do I work on this? Any suggestions please.....


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

LOL! He hears me! I guess he can not be off lead even in a fenced in area for a long time....


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when you're working on come i think
the dog should always be leashed or on a long line
whether you're fenced in, indoors, etc.

how often are you working with your dog on "come" ?



jakeandrenee said:


> LOL! He hears me! I guess he can not be off lead even in a fenced in area for a long time....


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

about every two days.....and every chance that lends itself. The problem is when we are playing fetch and he is running around and I need him to come to me.....that's when he acts like he's deaf! On a lead he always comes!


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

doggiedad said:


> when you're working on come i think
> the dog should always be leashed or on a long line
> whether you're fenced in, indoors, etc.


By about 10 or 11 months I generally treat failure to recall as an "electron deficiency". The e-collar can add electrons as needed, once properly introduced. It is usually enough to "tickle" him into compliance.

Recalling from a sit/down/stand-stay all the time is not only too patterned, it is too formal, and does not model the conditions under which you will actually need a recall. I like to recall a young dog off a friendly bitch, or during a game of 2-ball. After he complies, I let him go back to playing.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Uniballer,
How do you achieve that with 2 ball? I can't keep him a lead playing.....he gets completely tangled chasing the ball. Seriously this is my problem. On lead he is fine, but when playing fetch or something is when he isn't responding.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jakeandrenee said:


> When I do recall I do it in either two ways. If I am alone I have him on a lead and toss a treat away from me, after he gets to the treat I say "Jake Come" and he returns to me to get a treat. If I have help I have him again on a lead while someone holds his collar I walk to the end of the lead and then I again say " Jake Come" and he comes running to me, when he gets to me I give him a treat and again lots of praise.


That's a fine start, but I like to take it a step further. In addition to tossing a treat and then calling the dog back, I'll toss a treat and RUN. Way more fun when he's got to chase you than simply returning to you while you stand there. I do this off leash, in the house. Whoop it up when he gets to you with big praise, give him a yummy treat (have you tried really awesome things like spray cheese in a can, or meat baby food that he can lick out of the jar?), then toss another on the ground and run away again. Adding movement should hold his interest much better and make it more fun, and the more he learns how fun it is to chase you rather than to have YOU chase HIM, the better.

When you're on a walk occasionally give the command and start running backwards. Again, big praise and a treat when he gets to you, and then start walking forward again. If your recall means a sit in front, lure him into the front position with a treat if necessary. Because you don't need someone to hold his collar you can do this on your own, plus by adding it randomly into a (boring) leash walk you become unpredictable and a lot more fun. 

Around the house when he's off leash you can capture any approximation of a recall that he offers up randomly. If he starts walking towards you, call him and run backwards a few steps, mark and treat. The more ways you can think of to reinforce coming to you as a good, rewarding thing, the more ingrained the behavior is, and any time you can incorporate it into play and/or to add movement of some sort, the better. Use your imagination!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jakeandrenee said:


> Uniballer,
> How do you achieve that with 2 ball? I can't keep him a lead playing.....he gets completely tangled chasing the ball. Seriously this is my problem. On lead he is fine, but when playing fetch or something is when he isn't responding.


Does he bring the ball back?


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Yes, but not all the way to me...he stays several feet away and drops it and sits for me to throw the other one. He will not come that close.
If I run from him he always comes to me but always stops a few feet away. If I run away out of his "sight" he ALWAYS chases me. It's like he is way too comfortable just being near me, does that make sense?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

What would he do if instead of throwing the ball for him when he doesn't bring it all the way back, you turned around and walked away? Ooops - game over.

Would he bring the ball all the way to you if you traded it for a treat?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> about every two days.....and every chance that lends itself. The problem is when we are playing fetch and he is running around and *I need him to come to me*.....that's when he acts like he's deaf! On a lead he always comes!


There has to be a reason why this happens... If he comes on the lead but not off he's learning "something" wrong. 

When you're playing fetch you said you need him to come to you. Why? Is it so you can throw the ball again or are you trying to catch him to bring him in the house?


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

No, I have tried. He just plops down and plays with the ball....or goes off sniffing. I think it's crazy to try to play fetch on a lead.....I can't imagine how tangled his legs would get. Inside I can't go 5 feet with out him following me....makes it hard to even do recall inside.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Sometimes I want him to return the ball and sometimes it's time to go in....so both happen.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Walking or running away from your dog is genius and totally works. My lab with through some weird change of life butthead stage when I Zoe. He would just wonder away and act like he couldn't hear me when I called his name- he was 7 at the time and definitely knew what come meant. So at first I would walk up to him and releash him for not listening- but then of course he learned when I was coming it was to leash him and started walking away from me. So I would say bye Henry and run home with Zoe- oh was that the kicker,lol He'd come flying past us making it into the gate before me and stand there with this you were going to leave me face. The little butthead got right back to his obedient self


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

It's like as long as he has sight of me he's "fine". And I don't know how to encourage him to "come". He isn't a big food motivated dog, however EVERYTIME he does come on lead I treat him and praise him! Where am I failing?


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I agree if I begin to run away he chases me, HOWEVER soon as I stop running he stops coming....it's very frustrating....I want him to be able to run around with out a lead and play.....but when it's time for him to "come" he should obey me....I know he's a pup yet....but I also know he understands....is it because off lead there are just too many distractions???


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> Sometimes I want him to return the ball and sometimes it's time to go in....so both happen.


You may have inadvertently taught him that sometimes when you throw the ball he gets to bring it back and play the game, and other times, he brings it back and has to go inside. 
Bring me the ball...OPPS!...gotcha!...time to go inside. 

If you need to go inside, stop the game a few minutes before you have to go in. 
Throw the ball for the last time, tell him "all done" and then just walk around the yard for bit. If he brings you the ball say "all done" again. Don't pick up the ball. (game over) Give him a few minutes to wander around, THEN try to call him or calming walk to where he is and get him.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think it is a combo of too many distractions and he knows how free he really is. In the house he can't really get away just like when he is on the lead so listening is not something worth challenging. However, off the lead he can smell that patch of pee just off the path you normally walk or chase that bee which is more interesting than listening to you and something he can do by simply trotting on over there.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

jakeandrenee said:


> Uniballer,
> How do you achieve that with 2 ball? I can't keep him a lead playing.....he gets completely tangled chasing the ball. Seriously this is my problem. On lead he is fine, but when playing fetch or something is when he isn't responding.


With a dog too young or inexperienced for an e-collar recall I may very well play with him dragging a long lead (15' to 30') in an open space. Tangling in my experience is minimal that way. I don't think you could run him with another dog that way very safely. Jute rolls or hoses might bounce less than balls and help to reduce tangling further.

Generally, though, I have found a line to be unnecessary even with a puppy because my toy is always better than his, even if I have to put the toy on a rope to make it alive. Most dogs would rather chase the one I am making alive rather than play "keep away" with the one he has.

I have used a clicker to get a dog that didn't want to bring the ball close to touch me with his nose before I told him to out and threw the next ball. I remember being astounded at how quickly he learned that.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I will try ending the game a few minutes before hand, that makes sense.
We are just learning fetch playing two ball, so when he gets tired and plops down I normally call him to put his leash on, so what you are saying is let him "hang out" for a bit and then attempt to get his attention.

Yes, I know it's the pee over there or the bug over there....BUT.......


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I think the touch command would be awesome....so do I start that inside tossing a toy so there is less distraction and after the touch and then out do you treat or is the toss of the toy again the reward???


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

jakeandrenee said:


> when it's time for him to "come" he should obey me....


It sounds like you have called him when you can't reinforce it, and he knows it. This is not a good thing to do. If you call "hier" (or whatever you say), there should be a way for you to make it happen (except in a true emergency). There is a big difference in his mind between a "hier" you can't reinforce, and a "c'mon buddy, let's go in and get a drink".


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If he doesn't already have a solid "touch" command I'd teach that separately first. Have you worked on it with him before? 

I love the touch command because it can be used to teach heel, in agility, and even for a recall of sorts. If my dogs are across the room I can say "touch" and hold out my hand and they come running to nose bump my palm.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Yes, I know....so in those situations where he is off lead playing I am guessing I should not use "hier" so I don't poison it? I am just totally frustrated....


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Yes, we have done touch using the palm of my hand....it's been a few weeks so I refresher is in order....


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

jakeandrenee said:


> I think the touch command would be awesome....so do I start that inside tossing a toy so there is less distraction and after the touch and then out do you treat or is the toss of the toy again the reward???


I was trying to reward his prey/play drive, so it was click and throw. I never played this game in the house.

BTW - I do work on the recall while playing the two toy fetch game. But in the game it goes, "out", "hier", show him the other toy between and behind my open legs so he goes between my legs to get the toy. Sometimes I throw the toy between my legs, but usually I just hang it from its rope dangling between my knees. If you need to get the dog at this time grab his collar while you are still holding the toy's rope. Mix it up: don't take him in often when you do this.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> I will try ending the game a few minutes before hand, that makes sense.
> We are just learning fetch playing two ball, so when he gets tired and plops down I normally call him to put his leash on, so what you are saying is let him "hang out" for a bit and then attempt to get his attention.


Exactly!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jakeandrenee said:


> Yes, I know....so in those situations where he is off lead playing I am guessing I should not use "hier" so I don't poison it? I am just totally frustrated....


I do like to have informal and formal commands, with different criteria for each. Which is why it makes me crazy when my hubby insists on using "come" and "heel" at the park! :headbang: I've tried to explain to him that those commands mean very specific things, and I don't want to degrade them by using them to mean something else or to use them in a highly arousing environment when it's not likely they'll comply anyway. Ugh!

For me, "Come!" means run to me and sit in front. Heel means to walk right at my side, although not necessarily with constant eye contact, occasional focus is sufficient. "C'mere", "C''mon", and "Let's go!", along with "Bring it" (for playing fetch) are the commands I use at the park. We're there for fun and the criteria are much more relaxed.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

jakeandrenee said:


> We are just learning fetch playing two ball, so when he gets tired and plops down I normally call him to put his leash on, so what you are saying is let him "hang out" for a bit and then attempt to get his attention.


I think if you are playing until he decides you are done then you have played for too long. You must end the game while he still wants to play.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Uniballer said:


> I think if you are playing until he decides you are done then you have played for too long. You must end the game while he still wants to play.


:thumbup:


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

AHHHHH.....good point....ok, so I am to end the game of fetch and let him roam about for a few minutes??? The next few days should prove interesting....I will update with progress( I hope)....


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I should add he loves his balls and he LOVES his flirt pole....any ideas on using a flirt pole with recall?????


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

jakeandrenee said:


> ..any ideas on using a flirt pole with recall?????


Same as with two toys, except how do you get him far enough away to call him back? You could have somebody hold him, but this isn't as good a scenario as calling him in the middle of a game.


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