# Urgent life and death situation!



## KacieGSD (Sep 17, 2019)

My 6 year old female pure bred German Shepherd named Klio attacked my mom until she had to get stitches on her lips and puncture wounds on her arm. Klio, has been in our family since she was a puppy. When she was 11 months old at that time, we were in a very frustrating situation so I lost my temper and kept pushing her button and she punctured my hand so I guess I kinda deserved that bite especially in that type of situation. And another time she bit my mom was when she was relaxing in the space underneath the stairs and we usually let her up in our room when she sleeps so my mom bent down and lightly tapped to urge her to go upstairs and so... but then she growled in bit my mom's arm. The doctor says instead of bit it was more like mauled because she clamped down on her arms multiple times. And just recently, my mom wanted to kiss Klio goodnight especially since she looked so cute in that position, so tried to kiss her cheek. This isn't normal behavior for Klio, we always kiss her goodnight whether she's already in a deep sleep or not. However, this time, when my mom tried to kiss, her she just lunged at my mom and bit her lip and her arm. That was almost a week ago. I don't understand, what's wrong with Klio? She's especially nice to me. But my mom's the one that feeds and cleans her, the one that does the basic maintenance. And she never pushes my Dad even though he's the one that barely spends time with her. She's neglected of attention from us, we give her affection 24/7. But yesterday, I was petting Klio on the couch where she was exposing her belly to me so both my mom and I thought oh her guard is down and and she's calm. So, my mom tried to pet her so as she was getting closer to pet Klio, she started showing teeth and all of sudden lunged and was doing this growlish bark at my mom and chased her until my mom reached the stairs. 

My dad wants to call animal control and give her away because we can't really trust her anymore. But if we do that, the only option that the animal control or any shelter would provide is being put down since she has bite history. Any suggestions? please.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

First, keep everyone safe. Limit physical contact. Keep mom away from the dog unless absolutely necessary. Get a muzzle (I like Baskerville) and use it. Keep a drag line (long leash without a handle on it) on the dog to manage it if it goes after someone.

Absolutely no kisses while the dog is awake or sleeping. No belly rubs in confined situations. 

This is not an over the internet type situation at all. This was a real bite and you need a real trainer ASAP. If you post your location, you may get recommendations.

We can speculate until the cows come home about the motivation and temperament of this dog, but that won't help you in the way you need it.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Vet check, muzzle, and trainer ASAP. Not a petsmart or petco trainer, but a one on one trainer that knows working line breeds, and can come to your home to watch the family interactions.

If your parents or you cannot afford a one on one trainer, I would recommend rehoming the dog to an experienced handler. Someone who works the breed, and has experience with dogs who have a bite history. Make sure you check this person closely, you don’t want to rehome to someone who will use her as a bait or fight dog. Ask at local vet offices, they usually will take your information down and provide it to either experienced trainers, or dog handlers. I wouldn’t post a craigslist or Facebook ad, that’s going to attract the wrong kind of person. Also be upfront with the bite history of the dog. 

Good luck, hope all works out for you!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

How old are you, how old are your parents? Any health or mobility issues? I'm trying to construct an understanding of your household. I've no suggestions (other than to follow David's excellent recommendations). Until you decide to euthanize, call AC, rehome or attempt retraining, the primary goal should be to keep everyone safe. Do you have a crate and is she trained to use it? If not, I'd get one immediately.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> She's [not] neglected of attention from us, we give her affection 24/7.


This gives me a valuable clue to what's going on. If you give your kids unlimited affection, and don't set boundaries, are you going to wind up with well-behaved kids?

No, you will likely wind up with little monsters who think they can run roughshod over you and do whatever they want!

Same thing with dogs, especially a breed like German shepherds, who are bred to be strong courageous dogs who don't back down easily from a threat.

Another thing many people aren't aware of: DOGS DON'T LIKE HUGS!! Hugs and kisses are a human thing, and in dog language, they can be seen as threatening. When a dog wants to dominate another dog, it will put its head across the dog's neck. That's pretty much what you are doing when you hug a dog. Also, staring a dog in the eye from a close distance is seen as a challenge to another dog. It's what dogs do when they are getting ready to fight.

https://spcanevada.org/hugging-dogs-makes-them-uncomfortable/

I second the recommendation to get a professional trainer, one that is used to working with German shepherds. Meanwhile, avoid close contact with the dog, and muzzle when necessary to avoid any more bites.

How is your dog with basic obedience? Will it come when called? Does it walk well on a leash without pulling?

And has anything changed in your household recently that might have caused her to act this way? A vet check to look for a physical cause for the aggression is also a good idea.


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## Rayyan Mir (Jun 22, 2019)

I can speak out of personal experience that showering your dog with too much and unnecessary affection will result in a spoiled dog that doesn't see you as someone to respect or higher up in the pack, if you believe in the pack theory. Too much affection can develop an aversion to affection eventually. Make the dog WORK for your affection. I think the dog may see everyone as lesser, and therefore is very aggressive when he isn't in the mood (he's giving you a harsh correction telling you what he wants of you). He isn't going to think twice, because you're practically a puppy being annoying. 

It's the blunt truth. You have to be a leader. Imagine if you raised a human child with affection alone? 

Now I can't apply this to your case with complete conviction, but I say you should start giving this dog the silent treatment. Stop the kissing goodnight and the like. I believe eventually the dog will come to you and crave your attention. Perfect time to practice some obedience here and give the dog some pats after it complies. 

Why do I say this? Well, a while ago I had a puppy that also had a similar attitude problem (albeit the bites weren't as 'intent to harm' but were still out of aggression ) and basically was very bossy; until I noticed she was very compliant and submissive with especially one member of my family. He was very scarce with his affections as opposed to the rest of the family who constantly gave her affection and little to no disciplining. I decided to start acting like him and over time my pup became more respectful and mindful of my wants. All in all, you are the boss, make them follow you, don't follow them.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

You need to re-home the dog to someone experienced with GSDs and willing to accept the dog and establish leadership and the proper training or have her put down. Those are your only reasonable options IMO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

She does not try this with your father because he ignores her and treats her as a leader, and like the dog she is. 

Frankly, I do not think she is wired right. It is one thing to bite out of fear or being startled, but it is another to show teeth, bite, and maul the person who lives with you and feeds you, and cares for you. 

It does not sound like this is a new behavior, like she has suddenly developed rage syndrome or epilepsy or a reaction to medication, or even a brain tumor. It does sound like she sees your mom as more of an equal or even below her, and when she bends over her to "kiss" her, the dog is seeing that as a dominant-aggressiveness on her part. 

Kissing a sleeping dog is crazy. Have you looked at the size of those mandibles? Do you like to be awakened by someone kissing you? If you do, then it still doesn't mean that ANY animal would like this. 

Be that as it may be. I think your dad is right and this dog has done too much damage to be a family pet. I think you are right that sending it to a pound means euthanasia. Far too many friendly dogs are euthanized each year just for space, that keeping an animal that will cause medical bills to the people that will get it from the pound or shelter doesn't make sense. It gives a bad name to shelter dogs. And the right person will sue. 

You've raised the dog for six years, the problem is yours. Either you find someone very experienced with GSDs who is looking for a project, with full disclosure. Or you find an excellent trainer and all members of the family are willing and able to follow all advice from the trainer. Or, as hard as it is, you make that visit to the vet and put her down, so that she does not bite anyone else. 

I am sorry you are having this trouble. Maybe you can fix it. I would definitely try to find a good trainer. But rehoming her, I wouldn't do.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

So so so much of this ^


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

This dog actively bit someone in the family, that provides food and love. There are so many good dogs out there needing homes, there’s no need to put up with man biters.


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## saintbob (Jul 14, 2018)

I think what your Dad thinks...sorry.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I'm sorry that your Mom got hurt! 
It's a tough decision...you are right that turning your dog in will probably be her death sentence once they hear about the bite history. 

So there is that common saying in English: "Let sleeping dogs lie" and I think it must have come from somewhere! It is generally a bad idea to mess with sleeping animals from the viewpoint of basic animal behavior...

But your dog's reactions are out of normal. Normal "Go Away Don't Do That" behavior would be growling, air-snapping, or even a lunge with a single bite. To bite both arms and puncture them, and go for the face as well, is not a bite, it's an attack! 

There was a time when my dog was frightened and in pain. He had his paw trapped and twisted between two slats of a wooden stairway, and he was howling and whimpering. My husband reached down to grab the paw and pull it out, and he bit my husband on the bare arm. When my husband looked at his arm, there was a red mark but no puncture and no bruise. My dog limped for a week. Dogs _are_ capable of controlling their bite - even in times of real pain and fear. 

So all this makes me think that your dog's bites are overly vicious (I hate using that word) in reaction to your mom's actions.

I agree with all of the actions to keep everybody safe while you think what to do. 
I agree that it would be ideal if you could find a GSD-savvy experienced trainer or owner for your dog...but I know it's going to be hard.
It's possible that your dog could come around with lots of stern training and discipline? I don't know. But if you do keep her, you will need to change your entire way of relating to her (less love & more focus on discipline, training and control).

To be honest if I were your Mom, I would not want to go on living with and taking care of this dog that had attacked me multiple times.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

From what you are describing in the post, there is a lot of excuses immediately after describing very inappropriate biting. "She is very nice to me" ..no, you said she punctured your hand once because you were pushing her buttons. If "pushing her buttons" means disciplining her or asking her to do something she doesn't want to do, and that is why you lost your temper, then that is handler aggression. It sounds like she isn't always nice or safe with anyone except for your father, probably because she knows your father has her number. I don't mean to sound harsh, I am trying to help you. With every probably inappropriate bite, you are qualifying it as explainable. And it probably isn't.

*"When she was 11 months old at that time, we were in a very frustrating situation so I lost my temper and kept pushing her button and she punctured my hand so I guess I kinda deserved that bite especially in that type of situation." *

Why did you "kind of deserve" a puncture from your dog, in your opinion? Can you further explain what happened?

*And another time she bit my mom was when she was relaxing in the space underneath the stairs and we usually let her up in our room when she sleeps so my mom bent down and lightly tapped to urge her to go upstairs and so... but then she growled in bit my mom's arm. The doctor says instead of bit it was more like mauled because she clamped down on her arms multiple times.*

Your Dr is describing a level 3 or worse bite...because your mother who feeds her "tapped" her to go upstairs. She needed medical attention for persuading a dog she feeds and cares for to move out of her spot? That is so far from ok. 

*And just recently, my mom wanted to kiss Klio goodnight especially since she looked so cute in that position, so tried to kiss her cheek. This isn't normal behavior for Klio, we always kiss her goodnight whether she's already in a deep sleep or not. However, this time, when my mom tried to kiss, her she just lunged at my mom and bit her lip and her arm. *

Why would you say this is "not normal" for Klio? Because she was sleeping? She already sent your mom to the Dr once while she was relaxing under the stairs. I don't care if dogs do not liked to be hugged. A bite like that just because a dog was bothered, no bueno. Startled out of a sleep? Maybe. If this was a once off I would wonder if it was a startle. But there is history here... and she just recently chased your mom down, snarling, because your mom dared pet her while she was on the couch? 

*She's especially nice to me. *

She is not. She punctured your hand once. And you feel it is because you "pushed her buttons" I suspect you have not been a target since more because you know not to "mess with her"

I honestly don't want to go into a long opinion on whether or not I agree with your dad, or with putting a dog etc for two reason. One, I am not seeing the behavior first hand and it would be irresponsible to analyze it from a text post. Two, I dont know if you are an adult in the house, or are you a kid/teen/young adult still under your parents roof? I guess I am trying to assess how much say you actually have in this situation both as a member of the household and as a financial decision maker. My advice would depend on that. 

Really sorry you are going through this


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I own a 9 year old dog with numerous health and behavioral issues. She sleeps with me and is usually in touching range 24/7. She gets grumbles quite often if I bump her incidentally. If I hug/grab/ lift her I sometimes get a lip curl while she is giving me kisses. 
About 4 months ago I reached for her one morning and she actively and intentionally took a shot at my face. She got an immediate and real correction before my brain had even caught up followed by a thorough exam to look for injuries or soreness.
It was out of character and unexpected. Had she/if she repeats it I will likely put her down. Because a startled bite is one thing but repeated bites such as you describe I would never tolerate. As others have said good dogs die daily. No pet should repeatedly and with intent attack those who love and care for them.


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## MrDarcy (Feb 22, 2017)

I don't think we have the whole story. It certainly won't be solved by internet dog experts either. Dog's that viciously bite their caretakers are dangerous, and you know what needs to be done.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

This saddens me because what I read is highly inappropriate handling by what is likely novice handlers - and while the humans involved have been injured, the dog will pay the ultimate price.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would have the dog evaluated by a trainer and then see if another home can be found if the dog can be rehabbed. If not, the dog may lose its life. It’s terribly sad.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

A good natured dog will not bite its family members whether they are novices or not, it would take an extreme action from the person to illicit such a response. And the best of those “still” won’t react in such a manner. Even if the person deserves it from anyone else’s point of view.

[REMOVED]

I’m not saying that’s what you should do but, a realistic evaluation needs to made.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I accept many forms of aggression as OK for a GSD. A GSD can be aggressive and still stable and solid. But aggression in the form of a prolonged attack to known family is just not OK. I'm sorry.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This is the unfortunate combination of a weak-nerved GSD and a family that treats it like a baby.
A mauling bite, in my opinion, is something serious that cannot be addressed on an Internet forum.
You need someone with GSD expertise to evaluate the dog and the situation, and I am not talking a PetSmart trainer. 
I would contact your local Schutzhund club or the vet who treats police K9s in your area, and get a recommendation for an experienced and knowledgeable GSD trainer.
Good luck. This is something that needs to be done ASAP.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The OP hasn't been back...

If you are reading this, where are you located?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

middleofnowhere said:


> This saddens me because what I read is highly inappropriate handling by what is likely novice handlers - and while the humans involved have been injured, the dog will pay the ultimate price.


I agree that the humans involved might do better with a different kind of critter, maybe a different breed, and that with some training (the family needs training, and to understand dogs a little better, even lap dogs). 

But, here's the thing, just because you are inexperienced or inappropriate does not mean that your dog is automatically perfect in temperament and just responding to bad handling/bad leadership. I think in general the folks with the least experience, least understanding, often end up with dogs with less than stellar temperament. 

Even then, a bite may occur, or the mailman gets knocked down and threatens to sue, or the dog starts growling at kids, or old men with ball caps, or people of color. Usually a dog does not have multiple sustained attacks on family members. Usually. 

I think one of the relatively few GSDs with a severe temperament issue got paired with a family that with an ordinary dog might have had a few minor incidents. 

Of course, some folks experience the minor incidents and find a trainer, look to the internet, consult their vet, change their leadership style, go to training, or find the dog a new home, and those dogs may turn a corner, where if they were allowed to get away with BS for six years, may be a whole lot worse. 

What I don't get is that folks wait until we-need-the-dog-gone-today, before they start making inquiries. I wonder if some just need the "permission" to euthanize, and once folks agree with that, they don't come back. Others might want someone to fix their problem by offering to take the dog. 

It is sad. But while we might chastise this poster, it won't change the fact that so many others do the exact same thing. 

I don't think this dog is one that just got into some bad habits, and good handling will fix him. However it happened he is a dangerous dog. The right kind of person might let him live out his life with them. But he isn't going to be a great companion dog, or a good family dog. Police and Military dogs NEED to be super-stable, they are not a dumping ground for dogs who are between questionable and not-right. 

So what is the answer? Someone with a ton of dog experience, like someone who competes in shutzhund, upper level obedience, herding, or works with their dogs in some form of guard dog, protection, service. Only this dog won't go to shows, or work at guarding, or herding or whatever. It will be a drag on his other dogs, a liability, and a disruption to his current set up. While there are a few people out there that want a project-dog, really, most people with the level of experience aren't looking for a dog that is going to be a serious challenge. 

Temperament is genetic, and is what it is. With excellent handling from the onset this dog might be a little different. But even some of the best handlers end up with a dog that they cannot figure out.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

[removed]


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Let's not discuss APBTs or bully/fighting breeds.It's against forum rules because it always always starts a war of passionate responses and mudslinging.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Ya beat me to it ?


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

[removed]

To the OP, I wish you best of luck with your situation, as neither options are easy. We are here for you.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

*Next person who posts about pitbulls is getting one week time out. - ADMIN*


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thank you. I saw your post and edited mine to reflect it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A rehabilitated biter will still be dangerous in the wrong hands (the general pet owners). Dogs don't forget that biting works well for them. It is a powerful learning experience for a dog. Example; in the training facility where I was trained there was a Rottweiler who had bitten people. They "rehabbed" him through reward and desensitization to the level that he could be among people and did well until.....the vet triggered a button and he bit the vet's face. End of story for the dog. I never, ever trust a biter again.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> A rehabilitated biter will still be dangerous in the wrong hands (the general pet owners). Dogs don't forget that biting works well for them. It is a powerful learning experience for a dog. Example; in the training facility where I was trained there was a Rottweiler who had bitten people. They "rehabbed" him through reward and desensitization to the level that he could be among people and did well until.....the vet triggered a button and he bit the vet's face. End of story for the dog. I never, ever trust a biter again.


100% agree. I went through a long process of making sure the person I was rehoming previous bite dog to had the necessary experience, safely enclosed yard, no possible way to dig out, and had my attorney draw up a contract releasing me from all liability for any future bites. It contained a page I could edit to list all prior history, what was done while they were in my care, and that there was no guarantee that a future bite wouldn’t happen. 

But we all know me, I stress over everything, so Lyka was my last, and I obviously kept her. It just became too much. Too much worry, too much doubt about whether I was doing the right thing, worry that a child would end up in the home after being placed, and the possibilities of what that could do. I’m not saying every dog doesn’t deserve a second chance, I just don’t feel like I’m a good second chance person anymore. Something starts dying inside after awhile, I don’t know how rescues do it full time, the lack of humanity people handled these dogs with just broke me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> A rehabilitated biter will still be dangerous in the wrong hands (the general pet owners). Dogs don't forget that biting works well for them. It is a powerful learning experience for a dog. Example; in the training facility where I was trained there was a Rottweiler who had bitten people. They "rehabbed" him through reward and desensitization to the level that he could be among people and did well until.....the vet triggered a button and he bit the vet's face. End of story for the dog. I never, ever trust a biter again.


The way I understand it, the desensitization or training needs to be continued for the life of the dog. I have seen where they recommend testing the dog for backsliding once a week.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The way I understand it, the desensitization or training needs to be continued for the life of the dog. I have seen where they recommend testing the dog for backsliding once a week.


Makes sense. The problem is that triggers can happen anytime, esp. if the dog has been re-homed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Makes sense. The problem is that triggers can happen anytime, esp. if the dog has been re-homed.


Agree, but the desensitization or training is supposed to make the dog less likely to trigger.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

As a rescue I would not rehome or take on any dogs that showed a predisposition to biting. For me once that becomes a dogs default position it's over. 
Bud was a biter and would have been euthanized had I needed to rehome. Shadow is genetically incapable of being anything other then a fear biter. Management and ongoing training make her a decent pet. But I would not rehome. Her story ends with me unfortunately.
A dog that is poorly managed and poorly handled and has a startled bite or frustrated bite is one thing. But a dog that makes a habit of mauling people is not a pet and shouldn't be.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had a fear biter rescue GSD. He was huge, from pet lines and could not have been a better pet, but if he didn’t like someone, out came the teeth. I used a muzzle when I needed to and tranqed him at the vet. I didn’t enjoy the stress. Overall, though, he was a good family dog. When he was new, he once growled at one of my kids who he hadn’t met before, and I went over and hugged my child. He never growled at a family member again. I would never keep a dog that intentionally hurt a family member.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> A rehabilitated biter will still be dangerous in the wrong hands (the general pet owners). Dogs don't forget that biting works well for them. It is a powerful learning experience for a dog. Example; in the training facility where I was trained there was a Rottweiler who had bitten people. They "rehabbed" him through reward and desensitization to the level that he could be among people and did well until.....the vet triggered a button and he bit the vet's face. End of story for the dog. I never, ever trust a biter again.


Those darn Rottweilers! Black and red German dogs! Everyone who owns them claim they are big babies. Or even babysitter dogs -- remember Carl? Yeah, Carl babysitting the kiddies. 

But I remember the Cesar Millan-wannabe who had "rehabilitated" an aggressive Rotty, took it to a mall in Africa, and it full out attacked a small child who was just walking by. 

These are formidable dogs folks. Those with good temperament are very unlikely to kill someone. But they can send you to the ER. And one with a bad temperament CAN kill someone. And they do not snap and go from sweet, wonderful family pet to killed a 2 year old overnight. Nope. If you want proof of this, go to wikepedia and look up fatalities caused by dogs. They will give you all the fatalities, year by year, with the type of dog or dogs and their breeds or mixes if known, and they will give you, in most cases a little synopsis of the dog. Most of them say that the dogs had previous incidents, sometimes several. 

We own formidable dogs. For many of us, that was part of the package we were looking for. But it means we have to be MORE responsible. Someone with a Yorkie or a Cocker van afford to let their animal be rather snotty toward people. If it bites someone, and they do sue, the likely consequences could probably be born even by me: a fine, a visit to a doctor for a tetnus shot, maybe a little for pain and suffering or a day off of work. And a quick apology would probably avoid even that. 

But if your Maligator bites someone who steps on its foot, they are going to take you to the bank. If your shepherd or Rottweiler bites someone, pay day just happened, and not only that, but the homeowner's insurance will raise your rate and or drop you, or force you to get rid of the dog. In fact the court might force euthanasia for the dog. 

We cannot train all the children in the US not to run up and hug dogs they do not know. We cannot stop every moron who thinks he is the next Cesar from petting or doing something stupid with our dog because he thinks he is God's gift to dogs. 

Keeping an animal who might bite, or one that will bite in some circumstances is something folks need to consider hard and be very clear about. Keeping an animal who will maul a family member that it lives with is not only a personal liability, but it also will affect other owners of the breed when what that dog does gets figured in to the dog bite statistics by breed, or, the fatality by dog statistics.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> I had a fear biter rescue GSD. He was huge, from pet lines and could not have been a better pet, but if he didn’t like someone, out came the teeth. I used a muzzle when I needed to and tranqed him at the vet. I didn’t enjoy the stress. Overall, though, he was a good family dog. When he was new, he once growled at one of my kids who he hadn’t met before, and I went over and hugged my child. He never growled at a family member again. * I would never keep a dog that intentionally hurt a family member.*


Oh, I dunno about that (the bolded), but then I have brothers... :grin2:


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I wonder how many people try to apply the Cesar Millian methods and get ripped to shreds? Is there a website that shows those statistics? I’d be super interested in those! Too many people on my Facebook groups post about using these methods on their Mal’s at a young age, and they are “perfectly trained.” But none are past the puppy stage. I’m sure in a year from now those same people will be complaining that they tried to alpha roll their adult dog, and it bite and/or attacked.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nobody lives in a vaccuum. When you decide to keep a dangerous dog but shelter it from the world and all its triggers, who will watch it for you when you go away?

I've been asked to board a dog that cannot be handled in one of my in and out kennels with a guillotine door. I said no, because even though yes I could let it out without opening the door, what happens if that dog has a medical emergency or there is an emergency in the building? I can't enter the kennel and help the dog without being in serious danger and I'm not going to stand by and let a dog suffer and die with no intervention.

Part two: you have to transport this do somewhere sometimes, right? So it's in your car. What happens if you get in a wreck and first responders need to get to you in your car and your dangerous dog is in there? I know any dog could bite under those circumstances but a dog you know is dangerous to begin with is much more likely.

You are never going to ask someone else to take care of the dog for the life of the dog? You are never going to go on vacation? What if YOU have a family emergency? Another dog was brought to me for boarding by owners who knew it was dangerous but thought they knew all the dog's triggers. They thought the triggers would not present here and did not tell me the dog had any human aggression. They were wrong, and within five minutes of walking in the door, owners still present, the dog put me up against a wall with zero provocation and bit me badly a few times. I had no use of my right hand for several weeks and will have a scar for the rest of my life somewhere I wish I didn't. But thank god I have full use of my hand .

You don't live in a vaccuum with these dogs, and you've got to consider who else's life you might change by deciding to keep a dog like this.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

@selzer 
"But I remember the Cesar Millan-wannabe who had "rehabilitated" an aggressive Rotty, took it to a mall in Africa, and it full out attacked a small child who was just walking by."

Is there ANY documentation of that event? I was recently arguing with a rescue friend and I had said that CM was the worst thing to happen to problem biter dogs and the people who welcome them into their homes. Would love to cite that...


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@Thecowboysgirl I have a dog most would deem as dangerous. She has a prior bite history with humans. Including me when I first got her. She’s nipped at a few ankles to get men alway from her in my home (also when I first got her) but she did bite one man twice a little over a year ago. It’s a man that lived in apt complex I lived in and managed. This guy was very odd, was always on something (both drugs and alcoholic), and I told him multiple times not to approach me when I had my dogs out, because Lyka clearly didn’t like him. I told him she is prone to biting. I told him anything we needed to discuss could be discussed during business hours. The first time she bite him, it was with a soft mouth and didn’t leave marks or break skin. He came up quickly behind me, shouted my name, and when I turned around he tossed a box towards me while still approaching me with a manic energy. Lyka bite him. I told him I would pay for any medical costs if he wanted to be looked at, and would call AC if he wanted to report it. He declined both, apologized for approaching me in such a manner, and walked away. The second time, months later, I was walking her at night to lock up all the facilities (pool, laundry, common room). This time he didn’t say a word, walked up quietly and quickly and placed his hand on my shoulder from behind. This time Lyka didn’t use a soft mouth. She bite his hand, and did break skin. He jumped back for a second, and then tried to get close to me again. This guy has zero ideas of what personal space is. He wants to be an inch from your face to talk. So after I turned around and saw who it was, Lyka reacted while he got really close to me again, and she went into full on attack mode, bit his hand again, he still didn’t move, and she climbed him and bit his stomach and shredded his shirt. Broke skin on his stomach as well, in multiple places. Again, I offered medical assistance (call ambulance or drive him to the hospital, and would also call AC for him to report. He said no, turned around and booked it. 

Was she protecting me? Was it just a man that she really really didn’t like personally? Did she sense my discomfort with this man, or did she sense something not right in him. I don’t know. But I do know right before I moved, that same main was arrested for serial rape with minors, and the death of one minor female. I consider myself lucky. This man also had a horrible temper and would come in the office screaming in my face if he got a failure to pay notice posted on his door. Do I think he would have raped me? No, I’m not his MO. Do I think he could have killed me in a fit of rage? Absolutely. 

I still have Lyka. We have traveled long distances together, and never had an issue. She is secured in my vehicle, she doesn’t just free roam. None of my dogs do, they are all tethered in. It’s a risk I am willing to take. If I was involved in another accident, and Lyka tried to injure people trying to help me, I understand what the consequences are for her. I realize what they are for me. I still would not euthanize her, or keep her in lock down 24/7 inside my home. She goes to the vet with zero problems. She ignores anyone that comes in the house with the exception of my brother and brother in law, whom she will nip at the ankles while barking at them. They are both creeps, I don’t blame her. Lucky for me, a nip on the leg of their jeans was all it took for them to stop coming by, when they knew I didn’t want them coming by anyway. 

She’s not some crazed man eating beast, she is a dog, doing her job. I take precautions around other people’s children, and she goes in her room when children are over playing. Not because I don’t trust her, but because we are the “scary dog” house to parents, so we agree to crate/room the dogs so they will allow the kids over to play and swim. She has never so much as looked side eyes at any child, she loves them, but I still keep her interactions to my kids, and my kids cousins. 

Not saying I’m right, not saying you’re right, just explaining it from a bite dog owners eyes. 

FWIW, she has gotten out a few times at the apartment because of the girls, and she is perfectly happy and friendly to everyone she meets. She got loose once here when a worker left the back gate open and I didn’t check (like an idiot) before opening the doggie door. I booked it when I realized she had gotten out. I got a call from a guy about 5-6 blocks away saying he caught my two sweet dogs. She also has never so much as barked at cops in uniforms. We had cops coming and going from the apt complex all the time. One jokingly said he would take her as a K9 in a second. No thanks, she’s all mine!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> @Thecowboysgirl I have a dog most would deem as dangerous. She has a prior bite history with humans. Including me when I first got her. She’s nipped at a few ankles to get men alway from her in my home (also when I first got her) but she did bite one man twice a little over a year ago. It’s a man that lived in apt complex I lived in and managed. This guy was very odd, was always on something (both drugs and alcoholic), and I told him multiple times not to approach me when I had my dogs out, because Lyka clearly didn’t like him. I told him she is prone to biting. I told him anything we needed to discuss could be discussed during business hours. The first time she bite him, it was with a soft mouth and didn’t leave marks or break skin. He came up quickly behind me, shouted my name, and when I turned around he tossed a box towards me while still approaching me with a manic energy. Lyka bite him. I told him I would pay for any medical costs if he wanted to be looked at, and would call AC if he wanted to report it. He declined both, apologized for approaching me in such a manner, and walked away. The second time, months later, I was walking her at night to lock up all the facilities (pool, laundry, common room). This time he didn’t say a word, walked up quietly and quickly and placed his hand on my shoulder from behind. This time Lyka didn’t use a soft mouth. She bite his hand, and did break skin. He jumped back for a second, and then tried to get close to me again. This guy has zero ideas of what personal space is. He wants to be an inch from your face to talk. So after I turned around and saw who it was, Lyka reacted while he got really close to me again, and she went into full on attack mode, bit his hand again, he still didn’t move, and she climbed him and bit his stomach and shredded his shirt. Broke skin on his stomach as well, in multiple places. Again, I offered medical assistance (call ambulance or drive him to the hospital, and would also call AC for him to report. He said no, turned around and booked it.
> 
> Was she protecting me? Was it just a man that she really really didn’t like personally? Did she sense my discomfort with this man, or did she sense something not right in him. I don’t know. But I do know right before I moved, that same main was arrested for serial rape with minors, and the death of one minor female. I consider myself lucky. This man also had a horrible temper and would come in the office screaming in my face if he got a failure to pay notice posted on his door. Do I think he would have raped me? No, I’m not his MO. Do I think he could have killed me in a fit of rage? Absolutely.
> 
> ...


You said " It’s a risk I am willing to take. If I was involved in another accident, and Lyka tried to injure people trying to help me, I understand what the consequences are for her. I realize what they are for me."

What you didn't say was, I realize what the consequences could be for someone ELSE. That's the point I'm trying to make. Think about the people who are not criminals, who haven't done anything unreasonable, who should not be bitten.

Dogs bite. Occupational hazard for me. But finding out everything I did after the one bit me and there was a decent story behind it... it really changed the way I look at these things. I also learned that I have much less sympathy for dangerous dogs and the people who decide to keep them. 

You're excusing your dog with a bite history barking at and "nipping" the legs of family members. Your dog with a bite history has escaped and run at large. I do think that's irresponsible--for any dog but way more so with one you know has and will bite.

Other than that, my main point in telling that story is that I wish people would consider the impact their dog biting a person can have. Changing/ending a career, disfigurement, for instance.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

OK, who else keeps returning to this thread just in case the OP came back, thanked people for taking the time to advise, and posted an update?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It has happened many times to me as a pet dog trainer that people call me to help them with their biting dog, only to defend her/him and me leaving the session. It's mainly the reason other trainers don't take them on anymore, incl me.The OP doesn't seem to be any different.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sunflowers said:


> OK, who else keeps returning to this thread just in case the OP came back, thanked people for taking the time to advise, and posted an update?


I do. I keep thinking maybe they just dropped a bomb and left us to sort out the tangle, or to sit and laugh at the idiots trying to help them with a dog, or...there's many reasons. But yet, they've never replied.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@Cowboysgirl I am thinking of the medical response teams. That’s why they are always tethered in. When I said I know what that means for her is that they will kill her to save me, and I’m doing so, it also puts my life at risk because I’m not getting immediate medical attention. I don’t expect first responders to risk their lives with my dog to save me. I get that, and I’m okay with that. We do muzzle in certain situations, but it’s rarely necessary. 

Yes, she has gotten out a total of three times, In the 5yrs I’ve had her, and she is a completely different dog when she is off her property, and interacts with people in a happy go lucky way. Completely different dog when she doesn’t feel the need to protect her environment and humans. 

She’s also protected me from an insane man. I’m not going to fault her for that. And when anyone unwelcome comes into my home without knocking or ringing the bell, I don’t feel the slightest bit guilty that she barks and nips at them. They both know better. I want nothing to do with either of them, which is why they just walk in, because they know they wouldn’t never be invited in. 

I won’t change any minds here, and I’m okay with that. It took a little over a year with a trainer to get her to where she is today. She’s never attacked or nipped or bitten anyone who was welcomed into my home, or my personal space. She’s 9 now, and rarely even barks when the bell rings or someone knocks. Should I put her to sleep now?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> @Cowboysgirl I am thinking of the medical response teams. That’s why they are always tethered in. When I said I know what that means for her is that they will kill her to save me, and I’m doing so, it also puts my life at risk because I’m not getting immediate medical attention. I don’t expect first responders to risk their lives with my dog to save me. I get that, and I’m okay with that. We do muzzle in certain situations, but it’s rarely necessary.
> 
> Yes, she has gotten out a total of three times, In the 5yrs I’ve had her, and she is a completely different dog when she is off her property, and interacts with people in a happy go lucky way. Completely different dog when she doesn’t feel the need to protect her environment and humans.
> 
> ...


I never said you should put her down at all.

I know next to nothing about your dog. The only opinion I have about your dog was the instances I said I feel are irresponsible. If that were my dog, it would be riding in the car in a secure crate, not tethered.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’d love to do the crate in the car, but it’s not feasible with 4 dogs. Two are grown adults, two are puppies. I couldn’t fit one of the adult crates into my car, let alone 4 of them. I mean, I guess I could tie them to the roof rack, but that seems counterproductive to keeping both the dogs, and the general public “safe.” I’m pretty positive that any dog just involved in a major vehicle accident is not going to acting themselves regardless if they have a bite history or not. Especially when they see strangers trying to physically pull their owner out. And anytime I have driven by an accident with dogs involved, trained AC officers at at the scene also to handle the dog. Saw it plenty of times on Live PD as well. 

Like I said, I’ll change no minds here, and I’m okay with that. Like you said, no one knows my dog but those that interact with my dog. And the progress she has made in the last 5yr is phenomenal. I could easily hand over her leash to anyone, and she is fine. She keeps checking back in with me, but she doesn’t direct any unwanted behaviors on anyone else handling her. For every one person that agrees with me, there will be 10 people that don’t. I get it.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Sunflowers said:


> OK, who else keeps returning to this thread just in case the OP came back, thanked people for taking the time to advise, and posted an update?


It so often happens that someone posts and then doesnt return. However, a lot of people will lurk and try to get similar answers to similar problems because they are not the type to post. So it winds up being a bit of a valuable reference thread, if you will.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CometDog said:


> @selzer
> "But I remember the Cesar Millan-wannabe who had "rehabilitated" an aggressive Rotty, took it to a mall in Africa, and it full out attacked a small child who was just walking by."
> 
> Is there ANY documentation of that event? I was recently arguing with a rescue friend and I had said that CM was the worst thing to happen to problem biter dogs and the people who welcome them into their homes. Would love to cite that...


https://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/07/africas-dog-whisperers-dog-attacks-4-year-old-girl-at-mall/


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

selzer said:


> https://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/07/africas-dog-whisperers-dog-attacks-4-year-old-girl-at-mall/


Oh wow....so much went wrong there.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> OK, who else keeps returning to this thread just in case the OP came back, thanked people for taking the time to advise, and posted an update?



This is just another one of those threads started by a brand new member that I'm skeptical of...is it legit or not ?...I always question when the op doesn't appear to even follow their own thread ??...in any case if the "problem" is real it doesn't say much for the adults in this family that they allowed it to get..to this point....


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

CometDog said:


> selzer said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/07/africas-dog-whisperers-dog-attacks-4-year-old-girl-at-mall/
> ...


So upsetting. I've seen plenty of "trainers" bragging about rehabbing aggressive dogs to be service dogs.

It should never, never, never happen.

If you have to fix (or try to fix) aggression or temperament issues the dog is not service dog material PERIOD

That dog locked onto the kid way before he grabbed her. If his handler had been paying attention at all it could have been prevented


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So upsetting. I've seen plenty of "trainers" bragging about rehabbing aggressive dogs to be service dogs.
> 
> It should never, never, never happen.
> 
> ...


To make this statement, I believe you need to identify aggression. Is it anytime a dog puts it's mouth on someone? Every dog fails. Anytime a dog barks at someone? Again, not one dog passes. Does intent, motivation, circumstance or drive play into what you call aggression?

Unpredictable dogs, fear aggressive dogs, fearful dogs period, do not belong in the service dog field. A clear headed dog that has some defense when pressed isn't a bod service dog in my opinion. The same, CC, GSD or Mal that could make a great sport/LE dog could make a great service dog for the right handler and with the right upbringing, training and upkeep.

Again, what exactly are aggression issues? Barking defensively while behind a barrier? Unacceptable play biting? Biting a perceived threat with intent? Coming up the leash after a correction? How old is the dog? What training has it had?

It comes down to temperament. If you can't read the dog and understand it's motivation and probable reaction to a given situation or stimulus, you are not the right trainer for the dog. If the consensus of your peers, which should include another service dog trainer or 2, doesn't think the dog is right for the job, it just isn't. If you can't reliably take the dog everywhere and put it into any situation with minor supervision, it's not the right dog for the job.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

David Winners said:


> To make this statement, I believe you need to identify aggression. Is it anytime a dog puts it's mouth on someone? Every dog fails. Anytime a dog barks at someone? Again, not one dog passes. Does intent, motivation, circumstance or drive play into what you call aggression?
> 
> Unpredictable dogs, fear aggressive dogs, fearful dogs period, do not belong in the service dog field. A clear headed dog that has some defense when pressed isn't a bod service dog in my opinion. The same, CC, GSD or Mal that could make a great sport/LE dog could make a great service dog for the right handler and with the right upbringing, training and upkeep.
> 
> ...



I agree...the few dogs I dealt with years ago trying to get them adoptable.. came to me with a people aggressive--dog aggressive or "biter" label put on them by some human in most cases that turned out NOT to be true I never knew what had actually happened to get the dogs "labeled" just someones story of what they "thought" had happened...as far as i know of nine different dogs only one ended up not being adopted out and she was a mixed breed female who was afraid of dogs-strangers-noises and her own shadow---she ended up being adopted by us because I was sure in the right circumstance she would bite some one...over time she had bonded to me so she lived the rest of her life with us....so yes she had her demons just not to the point of me saying...you need to put her down...


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## KacieGSD (Sep 17, 2019)

*Thank You Everyone!*

-Update 


Hi everyone! Sorry for not responding and updating you on our situation. As soon as I posted this thread, the system said that the moderators were looking over my discussion and deciding whether or not it was appropriate to post so I realized it would take a long time. Thank you so much for taking the to time help us and reply! Unfortunately, nothing has improved. We tried setting boundaries such as not letting her in our rooms, no praise until she does something praise worthy and constant training. For example, keeping her stimulated and making her do commands and gaining her respect. We also did E-collar training in the house for a couple days as well however on a low range of course around the 10-20 powers. We also walk her every other day also. However, just recently a couple minutes ago my mom finished cooking scrambled eggs and ham for Klio (she didn't have the plate of food in her hand) however, she just approached Klio and greeted her first saying "hi Klio" to check if it was okay and safe for herself and Klio before giving her the food. She held her hand out not reaching over Klio's head and her palms were facing upward leveled low as if you were feeding a horse. However, Klio silently growled and charged at my mom again. My mom got so scared she ran on top of the kitchen table. As you can see my mom is trying really hard to improve her relationship with Klio. Klio has already intimidated and attacked my mom 5 times her lifetime. I don't understand what's wrong with her. I think she might show favoritism? Because we had a bird before named Phoebe and she was a green cheeked Conure and I spent most the time with her, however she suddenly turned so aggressive towards me and was so sweet to my sister. But, one day she got mad at my sister and started to be more affectionate towards me. Do you guys think that may be the case? If it is what'll happen if she starts to dislike me as well? 

I also forgot to mention that Klio was just getting over a phantom pregnancy. But how come she not aggressive towards me? A quick history behind Klio and my mom's relationship: My is actually the one that trained Klio and took her to puppy and intermediate obedience training classes ever since she was a puppy. Basically, my mom is the one that spent most of the time with her and devoted her energy into her.


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## KacieGSD (Sep 17, 2019)

Hi everyone I just recently replied however its getting reviewed by the moderators. But a quick update on our situation:

Some info about our household:

We are a pretty active household consisting of 4 members in total including myself. I'm 16 years old, my sister is 19 years old and currently in college so she's quite far away, my dad is 50 and my mom 46 years old. Some traits about ourselves, I'm the one that usually fools around and plays with Klio, my sister also used to do that as well, my dad gives Klio the least amount of attention. Only says hi to Klio when he comes home and that's it. And then... there's my mom. She does everything for Klio. My mom has this side to her where she loves to take care of animals. Ever since she was little she told me she rescued baby birds that fell out of their nests in her hometown where she grew up in. She's a very loving person. So you get the memo, she plays with Klio, trains her, cooks for her and maintains her. We've had Klio since she was 8 weeks old. And that's how long she's been training her for 8 weeks to 6 years old. We (well mostly my mom) took her puppy training and obedience classes and that's when we realized she's highly intelligent. 

- recent update

We started to set boundaries for Klio such as not letting her in our rooms, only giving her affection and praise when she does something that pleases us, and we also started to do treat training and also using the E-collar every now and then. We also walk her every other day. We thought she was getting better, however just a couple minutes ago my mom cooked scrambled eggs and ham for Klio. Without the plate in her hand, my mom walked towards Klio and said "Hi Klio" to assure her that "im ok" and also to check if she was safe herself. However, Klio started to silently lift her lips up and charged at my mom again and did the exact same growl/bark and went after my mom until she had to run on top of our kitchen table. I seriously don't understand Klio. She recently started to get over a phantom pregnancy but I don't think that means that dog would go to the lengths and show favoritism? If she does show favoritism what happens if she starts disliking me?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > So upsetting. I've seen plenty of "trainers" bragging about rehabbing aggressive dogs to be service dogs.
> ...


I don't know exactly how to answer that except to say that I think, especially in light of today's service dog issues, more than ever before:

Dogs in that role need to be the absolute best of the best, safest of the safest, and avoiding even the appearance of impropriety so to speak.


Sure any dog can do anything at the end of the day. But many trainers aren't as good as they think they are and on top of that sometimes dogs surprise the good ones. 

I'm all for re purposing second hand dogs as SDs if the ppl are knowledgeable and have done everythinf they can to test the dog, know the dog, and feel confident it is as safe as any dog can be in public.

I just do not support anything remotely risky or questionable when it comes to SDs. 

I washed a really good dog who passed his health clearances and is basically a safe, great dog, because he is too talkative and could rarely grumble when someone stared him in the eyes. Its too complicated a thing to really explain. Bottom line, I have faith in him but I also know with enough time and miles he would probably eventually be put in one of the millions of difficult sitations SDs deal with and he will growl. And I won't work him in public because I'm not going to be the other end of one more story about an unsuitable service dog. He is a big, pointy eared dog and he will scare someone. 

I believe he is a safe, good, stable dog and the times he has growled I think most ppl would agree were not even inappropriate for the breed or situation, but it is inappropriate for that line of work.

He competes all over the place with me and has been in crowds and all sorts of wild situations as a non service dog so I feel I know him pretty well.

These are just my opinions. Mine is that for the sake of every other disabled person who needs access with their dog we have to hold ourselves and our dogs to the very highest standard.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

"Some defense when pressed"... i am not sure what you mean exactly. Pressed how?

Early in my partnership with my first SD we went thru airport security and they handled her about as rudely and stupidly as you can a dog. I did not know how to advocate for her and I didn't. She was fine, not upset, not offended, just fine.

I had a child sneak up behind us in the grocery store and bounce a balloon off her head. She was fine. Steady as a rock. 

Stuff like that happens, sometimes despite the handler's trying to protect the dog.

I want to work with the dog who is least likely of any dog on earth, to lash out at a stupid human in either a display or an actual bite.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "Some defense when pressed"... i am not sure what you mean exactly. Pressed how?
> 
> Early in my partnership with my first SD we went thru airport security and they handled her about as rudely and stupidly as you can a dog. I did not know how to advocate for her and I didn't. She was fine, not upset, not offended, just fine.
> 
> ...


Dead on. Thanks for stating it so well.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "Some defense when pressed"... i am not sure what you mean exactly. Pressed how?
> 
> Early in my partnership with my first SD we went thru airport security and they handled her about as rudely and stupidly as you can a dog. I did not know how to advocate for her and I didn't. She was fine, not upset, not offended, just fine.
> 
> ...


I totally understand where you are coming from, and I agree. My point was that a blanket statement like "any signs of aggressive behavior" can mean one thing to you and something totally different to another.

My service dog had a huge red sign on his kennel at the shelter that said he was aggressive and such. He just had no manners. He would tackle you and mouth you. He would push you around to get what he wanted. He was a 70 pound black Cane Corso with 0 training and people were scared of him. He's not aggressive at all in any situation short of a direct and real threat. 

I'm trying to be clear here that I'm not arguing with you about what makes a good service dog. I'm just talking about the term aggressive and how it can mean different things to different people.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > "Some defense when pressed"... i am not sure what you mean exactly. Pressed how?
> ...


I understand. I think there are way more people out there wanting to make whatever they can get their hands on into a SD no matter how ill suited, people who unlike you don't know anything about dogs.

And for people like that anything that looks remotely questionable ought to wash the dog because they don't know what's manners, reactivity or aggression and neither does the general public.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I know I’m probably harping out of emotion right now, but @Cowboysgirl it’s not just service dogs you have an issue with. It’s any dog that has had aggression, in any form, except the ones you deem okay to handle on your own. Your service dogs growls, and that’s acceptable, but my non service dog that has defended me from a serial rapist, and has chased two unwelcome people out of my house is an issue for you. How could I be a responsible dog owner and take her out in public, or take her somewhere in my car? Because she has never displayed random aggression. Ever. She did snap me a few times in the first couple weeks I had her, but she came out of one crappy situation into another with a negligent teenager who used her for her pregnancy. She let her other GSD’s attack her, because she was too scared of Lyka to do anything about it, but she wanted the money off her pups. When Lyka came to me, it was the 3rd house she had been in in 2 months, both previous places in horrid conditions, not being protected or fed, and then removed from her puppies at 4 weeks of age based on a lie. I was told she was being incredibly aggressive with the pups, and wouldn’t nurse them. Within a few hours she was engorged and dripping milk. She was just fine with the pups, but the idiot that had her just wanted the pups and didn’t care about Lyka, so she lied to me. She ended up with severe mastitis from being so engorged. When I got her pups two weeks later when they started dying in the idiots care, Lyka became a whole new dog. She was a happy and loving mother to her pups, she learned to trust me knowing I provided nothing but a calm household, food and water always at ready, and I handled her pups gently. We built an unbreakable bond, and she has taught me so much about patience and kindness. 

She is not a service dog. I don’t take her into public places off leash, I don’t take her anywhere highly trafficked by people and animals, and drive well out of my way to find vacant areas to work her in. She’s got the good life now and has realized she doesn’t need to be a neurotic fear aggressive dog anymore. She has someone that protects her, and doesn’t allow harm to be the norm on a daily basis (or ever for that matter).

But good forbid that she got out of an appt twice, and did nothing to either dogs or residents, but was approaching people with tail wagging ready for pets. Same with the one time she got out here. A man in my neighborhood spotted both Lyka and Crios running around, called them to him, and they both came tumbling up licking him and wagging tails. When I went to pick them up, he was super impressed with their manners, and Lyka never once went into her previous fear aggressive state. 

So you had a problem with me taking my dog in a vehicle because I was putting others lives in danger. I just think you don’t have a clear understanding of what a true dominate/aggressive dog is. I’ve worked with countless breeds doing rehabilitation on them. Am I an expert? Of course not. I get them through their behavior issues, and pass them back to the shelter trainer for further training. Ones that didn’t come from the shelter were proofed in every possible situation imaginable, and if they failed on even one level, they were never rehomed. They stayed with me in a controlled environment. Do I think I’m some kind of expert trainer? Obviously not, I enlisted a professional trainer for Lyka’s fear issues because it was something I hadn’t experienced to that level before. And I sent all dogs onto a professional trainer once I work out “aggressive” tendencies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am with Cowboysgirl, on the service dog thing. By definition, a service dog has to go wherever a person goes 24/7. Invariably the dog is going to brush up against people, sometimes a few, sometimes many, and the dog cannot react to ordinary people, ever. 

People who have service dogs have a disability. Ok, I have disabilities. I have PTSD. But I don't need a dog. I have carpul tunnel, which does make me drop things like leashes. I have diabetes, but don't have a service dog for that. I have a heart condition, but don't have a cardiac service dog. I suppose when I am out, I could go into a diabetic coma, have a stroke or heart attack, or panic. If I had a service dog, that dog would have to allow medical personnel to attend me, maybe; or I simply might not be in a situation where I can watch for my unstable dog's triggers and keep it from munching on a toddler. 

The whole point of service dogs is that the person on the other end of the leash has a condition that might make him require service from their dog or become incapacitated. This is simply not a job for a dog that is unstable. Should the dog allow someone to come up and rob you while you are incapacitated? 

Well, if I had a dog that could warn me about my sugar, or calm me from a panic attack and get me out of situation, or let me know that a seizure or heart event was going to happen, then Yes, I would want that dog to allow someone to rob me while incapacitated. Here is my reasoning. If the dog attacks a human that is trying to lift my wallet, the person is going to need to be rescued by someone. If that someone is the police, and I am out for the count, then my dog is likely to be a dead dog before I am awake. And I lose a dog that is trained to deal with my disability for whatever crap was in my wallet. 

I thank God that I do not need a service dog, I do not need to take a dog with me, everywhere I go, 24/7. And that the possible things that could happen have not happened, yet, and are probably unlikely if I take my medicine. I will probably be upright and with it, if someone tries to take my wallet and my dog objects to that, and in that scenario, I can probably keep the dog from getting killed. 

People with disabilities NEED a stable dog as service dog. A strong dog, loyal, and intelligent, with good instincts. But aggression is something that I would probably scratch the dog for that owner for, because even appropriate aggression can be fatal for the dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> I know I’m probably harping out of emotion right now, but @Cowboysgirl it’s not just service dogs you have an issue with. It’s any dog that has had aggression, in any form, except the ones you deem okay to handle on your own. Your service dogs growls, and that’s acceptable, but my non service dog that has defended me from a serial rapist, and has chased two unwelcome people out of my house is an issue for you. How could I be a responsible dog owner and take her out in public, or take her somewhere in my car? Because she has never displayed random aggression. Ever. She did snap me a few times in the first couple weeks I had her, but she came out of one crappy situation into another with a negligent teenager who used her for her pregnancy. She let her other GSD’s attack her, because she was too scared of Lyka to do anything about it, but she wanted the money off her pups. When Lyka came to me, it was the 3rd house she had been in in 2 months, both previous places in horrid conditions, not being protected or fed, and then removed from her puppies at 4 weeks of age based on a lie. I was told she was being incredibly aggressive with the pups, and wouldn’t nurse them. Within a few hours she was engorged and dripping milk. She was just fine with the pups, but the idiot that had her just wanted the pups and didn’t care about Lyka, so she lied to me. She ended up with severe mastitis from being so engorged. When I got her pups two weeks later when they started dying in the idiots care, Lyka became a whole new dog. She was a happy and loving mother to her pups, she learned to trust me knowing I provided nothing but a calm household, food and water always at ready, and I handled her pups gently. We built an unbreakable bond, and she has taught me so much about patience and kindness.
> 
> She is not a service dog. I don’t take her into public places off leash, I don’t take her anywhere highly trafficked by people and animals, and drive well out of my way to find vacant areas to work her in. She’s got the good life now and has realized she doesn’t need to be a neurotic fear aggressive dog anymore. She has someone that protects her, and doesn’t allow harm to be the norm on a daily basis (or ever for that matter).
> 
> ...


For one thing--- this post is mixing two totally separate issues, so a little confusing to try to answer

But for another thing, you were the one who said your dog was what people would consider dangerous, not me. You're right, your dog is not a service dog so for the purposes of what I said it's totally irrelevant. My position strongly remains that a dog with aggression, fear, or other temperament problems is not suitable as a service dog. What I was trying to say about the dog I washed was that I didn't feel like some of the things he has done are really so out of the ordinary for a German Shepherd, but they are not acceptable for a German Shepherd who will work in public as a SD. In my opinion it's NOT acceptable for a service dog to growl--- where you just said "your service dog growls and that's acceptable" No, it is not. 

He has never bitten or come close to biting anyone. 

The other issue about keeping aggressive dogs @Jchrest -- none of that was directed at you in the first place. You chimed in and said your dog is dangerous and has escaped etc. All I said was that I thought it was irresponsible your dog getting out multiple times-- honestly I'd say that whether she bit anybody or not. The rest of all of this I just feel like is you being defensive. I don't know the severity or the circumstances of any of your dog's bites. 

What I have seen first hand is what I believe to be an overly excusing attitude toward biting dogs, many who do severe damaging bites-- rescues adopting these dogs out, and I think it's a problem. 

You and I have some differences of opinion but you are also kind of twisting what I said and applying-- for instance you said your dog nipped and barked at family members in the house to which I replied I thought that was a bad idea and I would not let my dog do that. Then you clarified that they entered the home without your permission.

To be honest I still would not let my dog engage what sounds like a rude family member, I'd still put the dog up and call the police if I had to if the issue is boundaries and rudeness from family. I don't think a barking, nipping dog should be handling that. My opinion.

We all hope our dogs will defend us or at least try to defend us from actual harm. I don't fault a dog for doing that. If you truly thought those family members had forced their way in and were going to harm you and your dog defended the home then I guess whatever. 

But you're getting angry about statements I made in the very beginning when all you said was that your dog was barking and nipping family members in your home.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Correction: I said aggression, fear, or other temperament problems...

as if aggression is definitely a temperament problem which for GSD I would say it is not depending on the dog.

If my lab showed any aggression I'd feel that was a temperament problem.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Last clarification...about my dog who growled. I basically felt I understood from his shepherd brain why he had that reaction. But it is also not acceptable to me for my pet dog to just growl at whoever and we've worked on it and come to s good understanding where he defers to me. I say it's fine so it's fine and his job from there is to mind his own business.

So as far as it being acceptable, I mean I can understand how a shepherd came to the conclusion he came to, but because there was no legitimate threat I let him know he needed to defer to me on it and let it go and he has gotten better and better at doing that on his own.

Service dogs get gawked at, stared at constantly, rushed up to, petted without permission, and all sorts of other nonsense. My old girl I honestly think thought she was a celebrity, she just thought she was so pretty and special they wanted to ooh and ah. My male struggled with the fact that ppl acted different when he was in harness and was uncomfortable with it. So he is not for the job.

My lab assumes people who stare at him want to be his friend. He has learned to mind his own business but he is not upset about attention from ppl, he loves it. Crowds literally make him happy, even if no one acknowledges hin because he is walking in a sea of "friends". I hate crowds, so I guess we are perfect together.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m not angry, and I did preface my comment by saying I was replying out of emotion. I do get defensive when people talk about aggressive dogs, I’ll admit that. But only because I think people’s idea of what aggression or aggressive behaviors are, are often skewed. Most, not all, are a case of nurture vs nature. They had poor handlers/owners to begin with, and the aggression that was spoke of was nothing more than the dog never being taught boundaries and proper behaviors. Or the handler/owners reverted to physical abuse to get the dog to listen rather than taking the time to properly teach them acceptable and non acceptable behavior. I often get too passionate about this, and it can come across as rude or singling someone out. My apologies. 

As for service dogs, I agree, I wouldn’t not want a rehabbed (or second hand, your phrase) dog going out to a typical disabled person. But I see nothing wrong with a dog savvy handler that happened to have a disability owning these dogs. I wouldn’t try to turn Lyka into my service dog, because she bolts after cats anytime she sees them, blowing through recall every time. Oddly enough, she just wants to play with them, but it freaks the cats out for sure. She would easily pull me or anyone else out of a chair or off their feet in a second if she encounters a cat. 

I’m still not sure what you think is appropriate for a service dog if their owner is threatened with bodily harm. Would I want a dog trained to react for me in that situation, or am I expected to defend myself and service dog while someone tries to assault someone who is disabled. I would rather have a GSD trained to handle those situations rather than a lab that just sat by my side while I was assaulted. 

And family members or no, I would want protection from anyone entering my house uninvited. Everyone who knows me, knows to text if they are coming over, and I put Lyka in her room and let her out once everyone is settled. This isn’t because I’m afraid she’ll go after anyone coming into my home, but because most people are frightened of her because she is an adult. They get scared of Crios too, who is the biggest wuss I’ve ever met. They just see big pointy eared dogs and get scared. I’m sure the same will happen with Seiran (still praying for her recovery) and Floki when they are adults as well. But when someone walks in unannounced, and my reaction is physical and verbal, it’s a pretty solid clue that they are not welcomed in my home, and Lyka senses that. She doesn’t do that to family members that live here, or their friends. She doesn’t do it with anyone who comes over regularly or even occasionally. She does it when it’s perfectly clear I’m beyond a black rage and into a red rage, when loser druggie family members waltz into my home. I can’t put her up before she realizes what’s going on, she’s too fast, and frankly, I feel she is doing a great job defending me. Some would agree, some would disagree, I get it. But we do what works for us. 

I just find it sad and maddening that people don’t recognize aggression in it’s true form, temperament wise, not handler wise. I don’t expect Joe Blow to walk in and want a dog like this, but I do believe their are plenty of passionate people that have the capacity to handle these dogs and reset their nurture back to a stable confident dog. I don’t believe they should be put down without a chance of being adopted out to the right owner. 

I could keep going. Like I said, I’m very passionate about the subject because of my personal experiences with these type of dogs, long before Lyka came into my life.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What a service dog should do if their handler is threatened is probably nothing. 

That's a tough pill for people, including me, to swallow, but that is the bottom line. They are not there for protection, period. They should be the least likely of dogs to act to defend their owners.

And before someone throws out that "minimal protection" wording that has been so hotly debated, the DOJ has clarified that it meant something like trying to prevent a person in a seizure from hitting their head, not defending against a threat. 

Being accompanied by a dog is some deterrant on its own, but that's about it.

Unless you consider a guide dog protecting its owner by refusing to lead to somewhere unsafe, into traffic, as an example. 

The unfortunate fact is that service dog teams face hostility from time to time with access issues. We get yelled at, people behave aggressively toward us when we have the right to be there, and the dog must not react to that.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> I’m not angry, and I did preface my comment by saying I was replying out of emotion. I do get defensive when people talk about aggressive dogs, I’ll admit that. But only because I think people’s idea of what aggression or aggressive behaviors are, are often skewed. Most, not all, are a case of nurture vs nature. They had poor handlers/owners to begin with, and the aggression that was spoke of was nothing more than the dog never being taught boundaries and proper behaviors. Or the handler/owners reverted to physical abuse to get the dog to listen rather than taking the time to properly teach them acceptable and non acceptable behavior. I often get too passionate about this, and it can come across as rude or singling someone out. My apologies.
> 
> As for service dogs, I agree, I wouldn’t not want a rehabbed (or second hand, your phrase) dog going out to a typical disabled person. But I see nothing wrong with a dog savvy handler that happened to have a disability owning these dogs. I wouldn’t try to turn Lyka into my service dog, because she bolts after cats anytime she sees them, blowing through recall every time. Oddly enough, she just wants to play with them, but it freaks the cats out for sure. She would easily pull me or anyone else out of a chair or off their feet in a second if she encounters a cat.
> 
> ...


Don't believe they should be put down without a chance of being adopted to right owners. I understand that mind set because it also used to be mine.

The more dogs I see, the less I feel that way anymore. Culminating in the one who bit me, that was the last in a long line of truly nasty dogs who have been pushed out into the pet population to bleeding hearts whose children are bite , themselves sent to the ER, and so on.

I think the number of homes who could truly do right with a dog like that vs the number of dogs with major problems is so skewed there just aren't safe places for them. 

I also think people deserve to have a nice dog they can have a nice life with and not be in constant anguish and walking on egg shells and being threatened and their family being threatened.

But I really do understand where you are coming from. I also kept a dog who I loved very much till he died of cancer and he absolutely met our state's requirements for a Dangerous Dog label by law, he didn't have it because I hid him from the dog cops. I also took total responsibility for him and made sure he never harmed anything or anyone until he died. 

It's not a responsibility I want again any time soon.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's how my service dog responded to a thread during the temperament test. In the last part of the test, this guy come rushing out of hiding, dressed in loose, floppy clothing, wearing a broad brimmed hat, and yelling aggressively and smacking the ground with a stick.

My dog did an initial start of surprise when she saw him. then she looked up at me. I reassured her that everything was okay, and she just stood there at full alert, watching him. The temperament tester, who also does schutzhund, said it was the perfect response for a service dog.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey, guys, OP posted an update.

I still maintain that this is for an experienced trainer to evaluate. It isn’t normal for a GSD to attack the person who feeds and cares for it.

Now that this dog knows she can terrorize the mom, it is a dangerous situation.

t


KacieGSD said:


> -Update
> 
> 
> Hi everyone! Sorry for not responding and updating you on our situation. As soon as I posted this thread, the system said that the moderators were looking over my discussion and deciding whether or not it was appropriate to post so I realized it would take a long time. Thank you so much for taking the to time help us and reply! Unfortunately, nothing has improved. We tried setting boundaries such as not letting her in our rooms, no praise until she does something praise worthy and constant training. For example, keeping her stimulated and making her do commands and gaining her respect. We also did E-collar training in the house for a couple days as well however on a low range of course around the 10-20 powers. We also walk her every other day also. However, just recently a couple minutes ago my mom finished cooking scrambled eggs and ham for Klio (she didn't have the plate of food in her hand) however, she just approached Klio and greeted her first saying "hi Klio" to check if it was okay and safe for herself and Klio before giving her the food. She held her hand out not reaching over Klio's head and her palms were facing upward leveled low as if you were feeding a horse. However, Klio silently growled and charged at my mom again. My mom got so scared she ran on top of the kitchen table. As you can see my mom is trying really hard to improve her relationship with Klio. Klio has already intimidated and attacked my mom 5 times her lifetime. I don't understand what's wrong with her. I think she might show favoritism? Because we had a bird before named Phoebe and she was a green cheeked Conure and I spent most the time with her, however she suddenly turned so aggressive towards me and was so sweet to my sister. But, one day she got mad at my sister and started to be more affectionate towards me. Do you guys think that may be the case? If it is what'll happen if she starts to dislike me as well?
> ...


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What a service dog should do if their handler is threatened is probably nothing.
> 
> That's a tough pill for people, including me, to swallow, but that is the bottom line. They are not there for protection, period. They should be the least likely of dogs to act to defend their owners.
> 
> ...


Reigning in the number of fake service dogs would go a long ways in improving access. It may not account for all access issues, but it's a significant factor imop.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

KacieGSD said:


> Hi everyone I just recently replied however its getting reviewed by the moderators. But a quick update on our situation:
> 
> Some info about our household:
> 
> ...


She isn’t showing favoritism, she’s showing that she trained your mom, not the other way around. Your mom is likely doing TOO much for her. 

I would recommend the following: get a basket muzzle to use on Klio for the time being. Have her checked by a vet to make sure she isn’t masking any pain she may be experiencing, and work from there. If she checks out at the vet, get a one on one trainer to see the behaviors she is displaying to your mother and how your mother treats her. I’d also not have your mom approach her at all. If she wants to eat, and your mom has the food, just place it on the floor in the kitchen and say whatever word she says for food, walk out, and carry on with anything not related to 
Klio. 

Can anyone take over tasks for your mother when it comes to the dog? Until you can take the above measures? Sorry for rerailing your thread, we didn’t think you would come back, but glad to have you back.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@Nigel, I agree 100%. That’s the second thing that irks me in regards to dogs. Soooooo many people have taken advantage of how easy it is to get a therapy animal recommendation from their vets. And these people claim they are service animals. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to explain the difference to the actual pet owner. And now with how easy it is to order vests online, they slap service patches on there, and think they have a service animal. Rarely are these dogs even slightly trained. I would never take a single one of my dogs in public with a service dog patch on it, it’s almost as bad as people claiming service to our country to beg one street corners. Sorry twenty year old man bun kid, but I’m not giving you money so you can go get some more molly. People usually ruin anything good that comes about in our world. Selfish, entitled people. You do not have a service dog, you have a chiweinie mutt that won’t stop yipping it’s head off, and you’re making the whole service dog industry look bad, like they are putting these dogs out there.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@KacieGSD. I'm sorry but this dog either needs an experienced trainer or she needs to be put down.
It doesn't matter why she does it. It's not normal behavior. I believe that she may be fine with an experienced handler, but why? This dog has repeatedly gone after her biggest fan. So why should she get a free pass? You need to understand that while there may be an underlying issue, everyone in your household is at risk right now. 
I know you love your dog, I get it. And I commend you for looking for help. Do you really want to build up months or years of terrible memories of her? What if next time she does serious harm to your mom? Or someone else? I don't want you to see that. Or the aftermath. Do the right thing before it isn't a choice anymore. Talk to your parents.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nigel said:


> Reigning in the number of fake service dogs would go a long ways in improving access. It may not account for all access issues, but it's a significant factor imop.


I'm not so sure. I agree the fakers are out of control. But twelve years ago when I started going in public with my first SD we had significant hostility a few times and the faker problem wasn't nearly as out of control t hen as it is now.

I have far fewer issues now than I used to...


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Nigel said:
> 
> 
> > Reigning in the number of fake service dogs would go a long ways in improving access. It may not account for all access issues, but it's a significant factor imop.
> ...


Same experience here. Lots of access/hostility problems with my service dogs long before the fakers emerged. And cracking down on the fakers means cracking down on disabled folks with real service dogs and making their lives even harder.

Most people do not seem to know that a business can legally boot out any dog presented as a service dog if the dog is out of control or creating problems (like peeing on the floor). If a faker has a totally well-mannered dog, I can live with that although I don't like the fakery. I don't want to deal with more hassles to "prove" my service dog is not a fake.


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## KacieGSD (Sep 17, 2019)

Thank you guys for all of your advice again. I'll most likely swap roles with my mom when it comes to taking care of Klio. We are going to start seeing a professional trainer starting next week. However if it does not work out, I don't think we'll be able to keep Klio. If it doesn't work out, and when the time comes, we'll most likely adopt her out to a professional trainer or someone who's experienced in handling dogs that have temperaments like Klio. However, I myself am still unsure but I know in the end I'll mostly likely have to come to a decision. Once again, thanks a ton you guys. I really appreciate all the advice you've given us.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

jonrob said:


> thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > nigel said:
> ...


yes


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog attacked your mom 5 times??? Unless your mom has been holding her paw to a hot stove burner, the dog is not right in the head. It is very sad. It is like your dog has a terminal disease. The kind thing is to take the dog to the vet and be with her when they sedate her and put her down. 

This is not normal or appropriate behavior for a GSD. I think it is possible that your mom is afraid of the dog (not without cause), and the dog is picking up on the fearfulness and that can be making her afraid. When she is afraid, she lashes out with her teeth. For instance, the benign offer of a hand toward the dog, but fearfully, and the dog is thinking, what is she trying to do to me? Or she senses the fearfulness as weakness and she is a huge bully that wants to eliminate weaker members. Or she had an enormous brain tumor and is triggered by something in your mom's manner. 

But it really doesn't matter why the dog is not right. The dog is not right, and is not appropriate to live as a family pet. She is worthless as a service dog, farm dog, or police/guard dog. Giving this dog up to anyone else means that you will not be able to control the environment for the dog, and if she injures or kills someone, you'd have a part in the responsibility for that. I think the liability is just too great. 

I get it that you love the dog. I hate to say this, but their are many, many dogs out there to love, that need love, and are worthy family pets. Euthanasia is done painlessly. Then you can grieve for the dog, and somewhere down the line, you can get a dog that is truly the stress-relieving, fun, companion dog that makes owning a dog such a great thing. 

I'm sorry you are going through this. People do come first. No one should be attacked five times by a dog.


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## louisebarron (Oct 23, 2010)

Here's 2 cents of advice. Get a respected animal behaviorist at your home ASAP. Give the dog a little more time before you put the dog down. Who know. Louise Barron


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sometimes, the best things you can do for your pets and animal partners, are the hardest. 

In my 56 years of life I've buried 3 horses, including my only "kid" last year, my 20 year old Arabian. I was there for his birth, and his death. Number 4 will be this fall. I've buried 3 best canine friends in the world, so far. 

Never had a dog with actual biting history but if I did--we'd go to the vet, end of story. 

It is not worth it to have a dog take someone's face off. This dog is dangerous. The owners made her dangerous, but there it is regardless, she's dangerous anyway. They've had this dog 6 years, since she was a puppy, I doubt a behaviourist is going to be much help. She is going to seriously injure someone, and it might not just be Mom, it might be some kid walking by, like the child in the video a few pages back.


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