# Huge smack in the face from Zelda's Fear Aggression to strangers (vent, shenanigans)



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

*I apologize in advanced this is my "in the moment" vent on my life shenanigans. (never a good idea is it) 
While my brother just arrived home form Iowa, after not seeing him for about half a year or more. And while its my mothers birthday and some realitves are over, Zelda and i are in my room playing tug, getting dinner, and doing some training (and now im on here to write this) I'm staying with Zelda because i worked all day and i feel bad and dont want to stick her back in her kennel so that i can enjoy the company. So we're also going to go for a walk soon here..
Zelda was doing pretty good tonight with just my brother, i was able to easily distract her with my voice, treats and praise and quickly in the same room. She went up and sniffed him from behind a few times and before she could have a say of what she thinks, i had her follow me with commands. My brother moved in and out of the room and the most she did was her alert face, its that face is very particular with strangers.. And anyways, my brother is here for only two weeks, so i am hoping she will warm up quick. 
I am worried, and i try not to be.. that Zelda will bite my brother just for looking at her or walking near her or reaching out to pet her. Even though he has been told many times by me no touch, no eye contact, no talking to her unless i say its okay and when. So i guess in a lot of ways Zelda is doing great in that regard, for Zelda! (she is on a leash with her martingale, i have cheese treats on me and my happy-calm voice!)
This is just all a huge smack in the face, the fear aggression that plagues zelda and i, because its hitting me where it hurts, my family.
Now i didn't dare do more than one stranger at a time in our house, as i know that would be way too much for her.. And that is why we are in my room. 
I wish there was a facebook group of people with fear aggressive dogs to strangers. Today is a day when i could really use that extra support.. Usually i accept the fact and am fine with not going out with my friends because of her SA and or fear aggression, or not going to a family reunion because i would feel way too bad leaving zelda again after a 9 hour shift at work. I love her very much, but man oh man :crazy:


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Worry too much and Zelda will pick up on it. They really do get into our heads, and you can be sure she's wondering why you are more jumpy in your own home. Treat brother like he's been there forever, be as casual as possible. She'll get the memo.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

You are doing a great job with her. The important part is that she has you and you know her and her tendencies and can prevent incidents.. most people wouldn't continue to care for a dog that couldn't be around family. You are doing an amazing job with her so keep it up.. in the end whether she improves.. you have made her a home and she feels safe with you  chin up friend 

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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Sorry you are in such a tough situation. You are doing a great job, though. Sending hugs to you and Zelda.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

It is tough having a FA dog. You don't really understand the commitment you are making to this dog when you first begin. Not until you realize the changes you have to make to keep your dog and other people safe. It is frustrating to have to continually tell certain people to just ignore the dog, or don't reach over the head, scratch the neck instead. Be limited in who or where you can board your dog, if they have safe facilities for him. The list could really keep going.

I have found with Woolf, that it is better and much less stressful for him if I crate him when to many people are over even if he has been crated earlier in the day while I am at work. He still gets real play/train time before and after but isn't exposed to the stranger triggers. He doesn't have to wonder why I am watchful/tense keeping an eye on him.

Yeah, it can really smack you in the face at times, but if like me after dealing with family for a while, you welcome that walk and the game of ball 

Keep working with your girl, you have done so much already, but remember you have to have your time as well.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can take a day off now and again. As long as you let her out to potty, you can go out with your friends, or you can visit with your family. She will be just as happy working on an antler or a peanut butter filled kong in the basement while you are up with the company. 

You can't go out every night, and crate the dog while you are at work and all evening and all night too. But a day here and there will not kill her.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think I have posted it before but there IS a group for people with fearful dogs. It's on Yahoo, I don't know if they have a facebook group but https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/shy-k9s/info join there and they will give you access to people and archives of information.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Sometimes a good flooding is good for the dog as well. 

My female Bullmastiff mix was fearful and aggressive as a pup and she got well flooded on many occasions and just had to get over her fear and be a dog. 

I used to stick a fabric muzzle on her when there was a lot of people around and take it off if I felt she blended in and people were respecting her space.

An issue with fearful dogs is they become the center of attention. You want to avoid this. So if there is a large group and the people leave the dog alone the dog learns the people are not to be feared. Once a muzzle is put on generally people are more likely leave the dog alone.

I also brought the dog to pedestrian streets and muzzled her and left her off leash to follow me. And she was brought to beaches with lots of people off leash with fabric muzzle. 

Basically this dog got forced to change and she did get better as she matured. 

I would say she was a tough fearful dog. She had an instinct to stop people from running towards me or entering my space and didn't like people carrying a bag or looking like they had something under their jacket. She has a scary disposition when activated and people retreated from her and she sensed this and went after them. 

She needed to trust and like people but also a firm hand to let her know she couldn't chase and terrorize people either. It is a hard thing to deal with but feeling sorry for a dog is not going to help at all.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

fdefinitely don't put her in situations that maybe to
much for her. if you think a situation maybe to much
for it is to much for her. some dogs can't be helped
but they can be managed. keep up with the management.
you'll find time to hang out with friends and family. if you
can't find time to hang out with family friends hang out
here with your virtual friends. give the dog a treat for me.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm a member of https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/k9aggression-support/info and they have a lot of good info for aggressive dogs (for whatever kind of aggression), and just plain ole support. They have a FB page as well at https://www.facebook.com/K9aggression. 

You're doing a great thing by being proactive in making sure she isn't put into a place where she feels she needs to bite. But keep in mind that you need time as well, and it isn't the worst thing in the world for her to have a day here and there in which she is left alone while you go do YOU things. Sure, you can't go out all the time, but who wants to do that anyway, when you have a lovely dog to play with, right?

Also, keep in mind that the bond you will have with her is probably going to be extra strong because of all this work you put into her, and you're learning a ton of stuff that will help you in the future as well. I became a much better dog owner not just because of the good dogs I've had, but especially because of the "bad" dogs I've dealt with. (I only say bad in that she has issues, not that she is bad in any way, or that you are a bad owner, etc.) And, last but certainly not least, there are people online here on a regular basis to cheer you on as well.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I agree w/ Selzer you can take a night off. You have done alot in the short time youve had Zelda and Thank You for being her Mom. I find that when dealing w/ problems that are not easily solved a break that meets my needs lets me refresh my self and come back w/ more hope and energy. Like Selzer said give an antler or Kong Zelda's happy and you get to see people and relax.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Wow thanks for the support and encouragment everyone, you guys are too kind 



brembo said:


> Worry too much and Zelda will pick up on it. They really do get into our heads, and you can be sure she's wondering why you are more jumpy in your own home. Treat brother like he's been there forever, be as casual as possible. She'll get the memo.


Good reminder, i do try!



wyoung2153 said:


> You are doing a great job with her. The important part is that she has you and you know her and her tendencies and can prevent incidents.. most people wouldn't continue to care for a dog that couldn't be around family. You are doing an amazing job with her so keep it up.. in the end whether she improves.. you have made her a home and she feels safe with you  chin up friend
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks wyoung! I appreciate that, i do always hope i am the best i can be for her, but i guess i am also a work in progress! Zelda and i are in the same boat so we are together a family. 



Stevenzachsmom said:


> Sorry you are in such a tough situation. You are doing a great job, though. Sending hugs to you and Zelda.


Thanks stevenzacksmom for the hug! I appreciate your support  And zelda does too, even if she doesn't know it directly..



Twyla said:


> It is tough having a FA dog. *You don't really understand the commitment you are making to this dog when you first begin*. Not until you realize the changes you have to make to keep your dog and other people safe. It is frustrating to have to continually tell certain people to just ignore the dog, or don't reach over the head, scratch the neck instead. Be limited in who or where you can board your dog, if they have safe facilities for him. The list could really keep going.
> 
> I have found with Woolf, that it is better and much less stressful for him if *I crate him when to many people are over even if he has been crated earlier in the day while I am at work.* He still gets real play/train time before and after but isn't exposed to the stranger triggers. He doesn't have to wonder why I am watchful/tense keeping an eye on him.
> 
> ...


This is so true.. I had no idea. I thought a little socializtion some obediance classes and we would be all set! haha...  Reality check comes quick when you start realizing the potential of what can happen.. 
I will keep working with her, and thanks i sometimes dont see how far we have come.. 



selzer said:


> You can take a day off now and again. As long as you let her out to potty, you can go out with your friends, or you can visit with your family. She will be just as happy working on an antler or a peanut butter filled kong in the basement while you are up with the company.
> 
> You can't go out every night, and crate the dog while you are at work and all evening and all night too. But a day here and there will not kill her.


Thanks selzer, i always appreciate what you have to say, because i know you will always tell me what you truly think. Which i value greatly, I have made a plan this weekend for brother and i to go on a date! 



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think I have posted it before but there IS a group for people with fearful dogs. It's on Yahoo, I don't know if they have a facebook group but https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/shy-k9s/info join there and they will give you access to people and archives of information.


Yes thanks jean! It was a while ago, i remember this group. I forget why i ended up not pursuing, maybe because i didnt feel i needed it at the time? But i will try and register again.



MadLab said:


> Sometimes a good flooding is good for the dog as well.
> 
> My female Bullmastiff mix was fearful and aggressive as a pup and she got well flooded on many occasions and just had to get over her fear and be a dog.
> 
> ...


I do have two muzzles for zelda her leather basket muzzle form dean and tyler and her fabric muzzle for quick applying and i have it so she can still take treats and what not.. And i have utlized her muzzle while my brother is here visiting only for brief periods. I did look into flooding a while ago, i think i even made a post about it, but i guess at this point i just dont feel comfortable using the flooding technique with her, i think too much can go wrong, and the counter conditiong, although a very slow and needing patience style, is working! So i will continue that one.. for now!  Thanks though madlab! 



doggiedad said:


> fdefinitely don't put her in situations that maybe to
> much for her. if you think a situation maybe to much
> for it is to much for her. some dogs can't be helped
> but they can be managed. keep up with the management.
> ...


Management is key with Zelda, i think Zelda can make some improvement with her fear aggression, but i do not think she will ever be the dog that someone can just come up for a petting. Yes i will thanks! 




OriginalWacky said:


> I'm a member of https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/k9aggression-support/info and they have a lot of good info for aggressive dogs (for whatever kind of aggression), and just plain ole support. They have a FB page as well at https://www.facebook.com/K9aggression.
> 
> *You're doing a great thing by being proactive in making sure she isn't put into a place where she feels she needs to bite*. But keep in mind that you need time as well, and it isn't the worst thing in the world for her to have a day here and there in which she is left alone while you go do YOU things. Sure, you can't go out all the time, but who wants to do that anyway, when you have a lovely dog to play with, right?
> 
> Also, *keep in mind that the bond you will have with her is probably going to be extra strong because of all this work you put into her*, and you're learning a ton of stuff that will help you in the future as well. I became a *much better dog owner not just because of the good dogs I've had, but especially because of the "bad" dogs* I've dealt with. (I only say bad in that she has issues, not that she is bad in any way, or that you are a bad owner, etc.) And, last but certainly not least, there are people online here on a regular basis to cheer you on as well.


I just liked that facebook group, thanks for the link!  I do agree with you, some people think otherwise, but i am a rather be safe than sorry- even if i look like a worrier for it. This is true, i guess that is one way of looking at it, i probably do more one on one time with her than the average dog owner that i know personally. I do care for her deeply, and other people say they see that she also is fond of me, which is nice to hear  Although if it were a kitty or me, she would pick the kitty for sure! Lol! 
I understand! She is BAD dog according to some parts of society, but i defiantly see a lot of potential and her intelligence is what gets to me the most! She is very soulful and i love her to bits and pieces. With that being said, its too bad she had to be my first dog, if she were my second dog maybe i would have had more experience and training under my belt! 
Thank you for your reply!



Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> I agree w/ Selzer you can take a night off. You have done alot in the short time youve had Zelda and Thank You for being her Mom. *I find that when dealing w/ problems that are not easily solved a break that meets my needs lets me refresh my self and come back w/ more hope and energy.* Like Selzer said give an antler or Kong Zelda's happy and you get to see people and relax.


Yes, thank you, that really resonates with me, i think even just outings is in itself like a restart button. And i get to remember what i look forward to when i come back and see Zelda again. Thanks for your support


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

its hard to give advice when you can't really see the dog in action. especially FA dogs, they are all so different. i have plenty of experience with that, i have a male that is that way. i took him to Ob classes starting at 12 weeks old., and he has been in classes and around people and dogs since he is 5 years now. sometimes classes can be to over whelming for these dogs with FA, sometimes it helps, all depends on what you have, and the type of trainer you have, etc. i think alot of times people are nervous around them and they pick up on that which makes things worse, even some trainers i had were nervous around my dog. i took him out of classes and found a private trainer that trained for military police work and was Not scared of him. she got his trust slowly through tugging with him, then was able to touch him while playing tug, and so forth. we found the key with him and strangers through his tug toy. don't get me wrong, even to this day i need to tell people how to act around him, but at least he does not back up and growl when he meets a person and they give him eye contact. he has made alot of people friends, and honestly never thought he would ever come this far. and someone said feeling sorry for them is not going to help which is absolutely true. like any dog they need to be corrected for things that are not appropriate according to what your working with. you cannot hide him from the world, i would find a private trainer who is not scared of him and you can slowly work on getting up close and personal with him and a stranger. you can learn alot from a good trainer and gain alot of confidence on how to handle situations. definitely the biggest hurdle is having your dogs trust first...........best of luck and keep up the good work!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Sometimes a good flooding is good for the dog as well.
> 
> My female Bullmastiff mix was fearful and aggressive as a pup and she got well flooded on many occasions and just had to get over her fear and be a dog.
> 
> ...


 This is what I did with my guy also. Personally I don't care for the term"flooding" it sounds like a pejorative to me.

Unless you live on the moon or in...Stagecoach NV!  Your dog is going to be around people!

I had my issues, that I had to "handle" with my Rocky. I guess it could have been "fear" aggression? I don't know but I do know he was most likely going to take a chunk out of someones butt if I gave him the chance!

I never gave him the chance! I took him on walks like I always do with my dog, I used the fabric muzzle for a while (in cool weather, they can't pant properly in the fabric muzzles.) Till I was comfortable that he was relatively safe around strangers.

No interaction with people at all for about a year? I don't know the timeline clearly but once I knew he was comfortable with me standing in front of him and him behind me on a loose leash, talking to people, I no longer used the muzzle.

He never interacted with strangers, I simple wanted him to see people as furniture. Nobody was allowed to pet him and certainly not give him treats! "No you can't touch my dog he's in training" was my mantra. I wasn't trying for close encounters, I only wanted him to see people. I would cross the street when people approached or step unto a lawn for people to go by.

After awhile when I could read him, I finally let a GSD guy pet him. I looked at Rocky first as he stood behind me. Absolutely no reaction at all. He looked exactly like he always did during these encounters. I said OK and Rocky gave a slight wag of his tail and let the guy pet him...job done.

Guest in the home one or two and he goes to his bed, more than that he goes outside, he doesn't growl at anyone I let in the home anymore but yeah he's not a Boxer.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

*Huge smack in the face from Zelda's Fear Aggression to strangers (vent, shena...*

No advice....but wanted to say that she is lucky to have you....I can't imagine how many people would have rehomed...we had that issue with a rescued jack Russell....it was a long 14 years but we stuck to the training and he after a year or so was able to sit and chill while we had guest....we NEVER did relax enough to have him around kids, but that was mainly my fear with kids being so unpredictable and him being within reach of smaller ones faces! 
Just wanted to say way to go....it is so great to know she has someone who will make sure she has all the love and care she needs...

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