# Color and genetics-Sables



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If breeders had never given any thought to color when breeding from the start, do you think the majority of AKC GSD's would be sable today rather than blk & tan? Just curious. 
Also wondering where the saddleback came into the breed, does anyone know?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sable is dominant, so it would seem there should be more Sables than anything else. However, of all the GSDs alive today, there are probably fewer sables than there are black & tan. Whether that was always true of the breed, I'm not sure. Not sure if the saddle was selected for in the very beginning, but the Von Stephanitz book has some old photographs of of early GSDs with a saddle.

Some hounds have a saddle, too. It must have originated as a mutation, because I don't think any wild canids have a saddleback. Some wolves look sort of like saddle-patterened sables, though.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Who said breeders don't select for color? Show line breeders especially, most certainly do consider color....


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I think a very large portion would be sable because of how dominant it is. I think the working line people who don't care about color have done this. Its almost a givin that if you see a sable dog it has about an 85% chance of being a working line or from working lines. 




BR870 said:


> Who said breeders don't select for color? Show line breeders especially, most certainly do consider color....


They are asking IF people didn't consider color


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

the first sable I saw was over 36 years ago, and was AKC show lines, and there are tons of sables in show lines so to say 85% would be working lines could be mistaken...Also, genetics can be weird...black is usually considered dominant, yet in Belgians there is a recessive black, looks the same, but when 2 are bred together that is when you get red Tervs or Mals, also Terv color is thought to be always recessive yet 2 Tervs can and do throw black, I think you could well find some similar weird color things here too, just saying ....


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Black is most certainly not dominant in gsds.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In german shepherds sable is a dominant gene , meaning that one partner minimum needs to be sable . Black is recessive to sable and black and tan . To get black both sire and dam have to carry the gene for black . Black to black can only give black.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't remember the exact time frame, but there was a very influential show judge (back 40 -50 years ago?) that preferred saddles and always placed the saddle-backed dogs ahead of the other dogs. Many breeders wanting to distinguish themselves in the big shows started breeding for saddles to have a chance in placing. 

I also think that Rin Tin Tin being a classic saddle-back had a huge influence in what people wanted in a GSD, and so GSD breeders started breeding for that. 

I never saw a sable GSD until about six years ago, and did not recognize the dog as a GSD at first. They certainly aren't very common, but that is because working lines are not very common among the general population.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> I also think that Rin Tin Tin being a classic saddle-back had a huge influence in what people wanted in a GSD, and so GSD breeders started breeding for that.


I thought the original Rin Tin Tin was a sable?


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## vonderdiamondburg (Dec 30, 2011)

I think the original Tin Tin Tin was a black and tan, thus the popularity. However, I believe sable was most popular among the Germans. I think it all started with sable. I just had two litter of puppies and I would say that most of my buyers are more interested in the black and red color more so than the sable. I'm not sure if this is a fad or what. But my sire is a sable and those puppies seem to be moving a little slower than the black and reds (1st litter) and black and tans (second litter).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The original RinTinTin brought back to the US by Lee Duncan who started the whole film saga was a sable. The following plethora of dogs called RinTinTin on US TV and movies were black/tan. Most with fading pigment, small saddles and small masks and mantles. Other GSDs of film fame, like Bullet and Strongheart, were also light black/tans, or faded patterned sables (hard to tell on old film sometimes). These are the dogs that stick most in people's heads when they think of GSDs in general.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Agreed, the original RinTinTin was a sable. The RinTinTins on TV were not descendants of the original, they just carried his name.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> Agreed, the original RinTinTin was a sable. The RinTinTins on TV were not descendants of the original, they just carried his name.


Here's more information on the dogs used in the RTT series if anyone is interested. 
The History of RIN TIN TIN

It's kind of interesting to see how the conformation changed over the years but not really that much. (heads changed for sure)


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I always thought Rin Tin Tin was a black and brown. Thanks for the link Whiteshepherds. That was a good read.

I never know what to exactly call the color of my sable girl.

When she was a puppy, she was red.

A teenager...she was light color with red

Now, she is a darker almost blackish sable with red highlights. I swear, every year she looks like a different dog.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I think if color selection hadn't been involved from the beginning of the breed, most GSDs today would be sable or solid black (dominant black, probably), or brindle. 

I don't think, however, that it is possible for a breed to come into existence without some color selection.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

There is brindle in the GSD genome?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there was certainly brindle in the earliest of dogs, Beowulf and Pilot V Beowulf (Sonnenberg) - German Shepherd Dog

Pilot - German Shepherd Dog

Dutch shepherds were developed alongside the GSD and earliest animals were interchangeable - some speculation that Pilot contributed to Dutch shepherds meanwhile the Germans chose against the colour. Another colouration was merling and this also was selected against. The "junk" DNA is still there which is why odd colours - piebald - ticking , white spotting and white (also among the founding genetic stock) pops up.
http://www.vankamphuis.com/dutchiehistory.pdf


Seven Pines Kennel Dutch Shepherd History

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Interesting, I guess brindle is dominant, so it would be easy to breed away from. More's the pity--brindle is so beautiful IMO. I looked at that photo of Beowulf a long time ago and thought the legs looks kind of brindley, but figured it must be a trick of the camera.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

No - the original RTT WAS a sable!!!!!!!!!


up to the tenue of the Martin brothers (Weinerau and Arminius kennels) - all colors were shown in the Sieger show and blacks did occassionally go "VA" (US = Excellent Select)....the Martins, as President of the SV, were in a position to shape the breedings done by their awards at the Sieger show (President of SV traditionally judged [still does???] THE Sieger show in Germany)....through their influence and many mis-reported (shall we say  ) breedings (which came to light with the advent of DNA testing!!!) the present WGSL dog was shaped and became the "standard" for the show ring.

WL breedings were not as influenced by them, and in WL, you still find a vast majority of sables, with "Schwartz-Braun" dogs (any shade/pattern of black and brown) and pure black dogs. 


The advantage or positive influenence of the Martins is debatable....and the foundation of the split as we know it today.

Lee


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Interesting, I guess brindle is dominant, so it would be easy to breed away from.


You lost me here. If the gene was dominant wouldn't it be harder to breed away from? (genetics go over my head except for the basics)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> You lost me here. If the gene was dominant wouldn't it be harder to breed away from? (genetics go over my head except for the basics)


Well, assuming brindle is in fact dominant, every dog that had the gene would BE brindle. The gene can't hide or skip a generation. So if you simply don't breed brindles, you wouldn't get any more brindles.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I don't know if this will help with understanding, but I did quite a bit of color genetics research and testing on my pup. She is genetically black, but looks just like a melanistic bi color.

VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services - Coat Color

This site has excellent info on how genetics are passed for colors. When I did the testing on my girl, she was EmEm (2 copies of the masking gene. If she ever had pups, she could only produce pups with masks), KyKy (This is the gene that allows the "a" alleles to come through. From what I understand, GSD's only carry this gene now), and aa (2 copies of the recessive black gene, no other colors present in her genetic make-up). Her bleed through makes her look like a bi, but she is not.

Hope this helps.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when a gene is dominant it is easy to erradicate.
sable is a dominant gene in GSD. Don't want sable, make sure neither parent is sable . Two black and tans could or blacks could not produce sable. 


Kendra that is very interesting about a genetic black appearing as a "melanistic" bi colour . Could you provide a picture and pedigree. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Carmen, will do tonight when I dig through my pic. But yes, it is her appearance. Tan on all 4 legs and a completely tan vent. 

Here is her pedigree:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=664185


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

I am also interested in the puppy who is genetically black. How do you know she is? I've heard other people say this as well "genetic black, but looks bi color" and I am confused on how this is possible.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Ramage said:


> I am also interested in the puppy who is genetically black. How do you know she is? I've heard other people say this as well "genetic black, but looks bi color" and I am confused on how this is possible.


She has been tested for her genetics. She is aa which is all black.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Here are some quick pics of her laying in the kitchen wondering why her mom is insane.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)




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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

So what happens if she is bred? If she also has aa puppies, will they have bleed through as well? Very interesting ....


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Ramage said:


> So what happens if she is bred? If she also has aa puppies, will they have bleed through as well? Very interesting ....


 
We will never know because she has been spayed.  No babies for her.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

Would you post her pedigree? She looks a lot like my bitch in color and structure.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Ramage said:


> So what happens if she is bred? If she also has aa puppies, will they have bleed through as well? Very interesting ....


 
As far as colors, she can only have pups that are black if the sire had the "a" allele. However, any pup she had would still have 1 "a" allele and 1 of whatever the sire passes. It also depends on the bleed thru. She is 3rd generation black I think?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Ramage said:


> Would you post her pedigree? She looks a lot like my bitch in color and structure.


Post #24 has the link to her pedigree.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Can you send me or post the link on yours? Is she a bi or a black?


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

Here is her pedigree. 

Pyka - German Shepherd Dog

She is bi colored. The pic on her pedigree might not show it well, but her face is almost identical in structure to your girl.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

No relation whatsoever lol


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

No! Not a single relation in 6 generations LOL. I didn't bother to check farther back.


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