# Feed Sentials- Calcium levels? Glucosamine/MSM levels?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm looking for some specific info about Feed-Sentials. Since plenty on here feed it (at least that's my perception) I'm posting publically rather than PM'ing Carmen.

I was doing some research on when to switch from puppy food to adult food, and came across the concern that supplementation may increase the total calcium intake for the puppy. Opps! I didn't even consider that. Here I'm feeding a nice low calcium puppy food and may be inadvertently bumping it up with the 2 teaspoons of Feed-Sentials that Jinks gets daily.



*I'd like to know how much calcium is in this product.*

Secondly, Pimg gets 3 teaspoons of Feed-Sentials daily, and with her aging I want to ensure she's getting sufficient levels of glucosamine/MSM/chondroitin supplementation. That's hard to do since there doesn't seem to be any public documentation of content quantities.



*I'd like to know how much glucosamine/MSM/chondroitin is in this product.*

Both of my dogs get two "splashes" of Sh-Emp oil daily. I found measuring a pain since that dirties another spoon! LOL! (I _hate_ doing dishes.) So I just put a splash in their bowls at breakfast and dinner. I assume this product has neither calcium or glucosamine support, though I suppose it would be nice to get that confirmation.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Only Carmen would have that information . I asked her for the EPA/DHA in the Sh-Emp oil and never got an answer. It's possible that there has never been an analysis done on it as is required in the U.S.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Agreed. I was hoping that she has done this analysis and may be able to post the data here for the benefit of all of us who use the product(s).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as to the fish oil -- this is sourced from deep cold water wild caught herring which is inspected along several points from catch to mash to separate to decant to my final order , accompanied by a lab analysis declaring it free of any contaminants, metals , pesticides etc. I and others get the oil portion . Raw . Not refined . Farmers who practice organic farming and are Certified Organic get the fish flesh to amend their soil . Included in the later group are large dairys which offer organic milk. The fish pulp enriches the soil , enriches the pasture and the milk is enhanced this way naturally as a byproduct of good farming practices. Healthier more productive animals. This milk is available under the Dairy O (Neilson's) in Ontario.

Typically herring EPA and DHA is 1:40 to 1:50 grams per tablespoon.
Fish oil provides omega 3 , anti inflammatory.

The other question is much more complex to answer and will take a stab at it later tonight.

I take every effort to only use the best , cleanest , natural ingredients. My dogs have excelled on this formulation for over 25 years . I have seen dramatic positive results from dogs with chronic problems.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> I take every effort to only use the best , cleanest , natural ingredients. My dogs have excelled on this formulation for over 25 years . I have seen dramatic positive results from dogs with chronic problems.


Thanks for the response Carmen. The quoted section here is the reason I continue to use it. I have no doubt the formula is fantastic. I would just like to ensure I'm not giving my puppy (approaching 8 months old) too much calcium, and ensure that my adult (7.5 years old) is getting enough joint support. Some numbers would be fantastic if they're available. When my vet asks me how much glucosamine Pimg gets, I have no answer for her right now. Looking forward to your response later tonight!
:toasting:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

But that doesn't answer my question. Sh-Emp oil has herring, hemp and coconut oil, correct? So how much EPA/DHA per tablespoon serving?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes it does -- The hemp oil supports / elevates the levels of omega 3 , which are outbalanced by omega 6 through the diet . Your level of DHA and EPa per tablespoon will be determined by the distribution of the other two ingredients in that tablespoon. All oils have different densities . This is not a therapeutic "drug" .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes. I understand that. But it does not answer my question. I am asking for an O3:O6 mg/tablespoon given the ingredients of your oil. Thank you anyways.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

> accompanied by a lab analysis declaring it free of any contaminants, metals , pesticides etc.


I couldn't find the lab analysis, could you post a link to it please.

Also, is there anyplace someone can look up how much of each ingredient is in your supplements. For example how much garlic powder, etc.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Tho I can't speak for Carmen, I find with some things, you aren't going to get specific answers as to ingredients/proportion of ingredients because it's like giving away a trade secret..

If I make dog treats, and tell you exactly the amounts of ingredient, what's to stop you (general you) from just recreating it yourself?? Ya know, like giving out the kentucky fried chicken recipe? LOL


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Asking for a calcium and glucosamine content analysis is hardly asking for trade secrets.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

willy your right, but ya never know if you'll get an answer or not


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree, Diane. I wouldn't ask for the amounts of each ingredient because that is a trade secret such as the herbal ingredients of Feed Sentials or the probiotic/enzyme mix and unless you know about herbs and what they do, the average person has no business trying to mix it. I would assume Carmen has some sort of patent, or legal claim, on the particular mixture of her products.

But any fish oil I buy has a listed amount of EPA/DHA per serving and any joint supplement you buy will have the amount of gluc/chond./msm that it has in it. I wouldn't think that was a trade secret. It's really not hard to figure out how much EPA/DHA is in a product. A typical fish oil has 180EPA/120 DHA mg per 1000 mg of oil. Hemp oil is typicall 4:1 or 3:1. Coconut oil has no O3. A minimum EPA/DHA can be derived by the manufacturer of said product doing a simple calc without exposing her trade secret based on the oils and how concentrated they are.

And I want to know so I know if Jax is getting so I can balance her diet. It's really very simple...either the information is provided, same as any other manufacturer of an item, or someone else can have my money for a product of equivalent quality. I don't think it's out of line to ask for that information so a person can properly care for their animal.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I am just wondering if anybody uses all these checks and balances in their own diet?

First off - just b/c a product lists mg.'s for example doesn't mean that it is in bioavailable form, natural and/or even used by the body as well as other health factors...Sooo

I found this thread in a google search, as Carmen explains calcium in link#7

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...166491-german-shepard-not-enough-calcuim.html


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, I do. I take O3's based on the EPA for inflammation. I know under a certain amount, I get no benefit and I know this because of how the herniated disc in my neck feels.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax I do hope things are okay for your dog.

You know that I put in some major time back in 2011 when your dog was having problems . Many long emails, lots of links , lots of thought and time . Even to the point of spending my late afternoon on 31/12/2011 providing more answers and offering you my holistic vet's personal information so that your Dr Wilcox and she could come up with the best solution . 

The thing with food is that what matters is how something is absorbed. The metabolism of omega 3 is influenced by the amount of omega 6 in the diet which competes for the same enzymes and by co-factors such as Vit B C E zinc and magnesium . Because one of the problems in most diets, canine and human is the large over balance of omega 6 I have used a larger portion of fish oil AND I have used hemp oil as a source of omega 3 to compensate and as a source for phospholipids which enable better absorption of those beneficial omega 3s. DHA can convert to EPA and vice versa -- .
All oils are natural , unrefined . Exactly how much DHA EPA you are going to have in one tablespoon I cannot say because it depends on the distribution of the three ingredients . The major ingredient is raw natural clean herring oil . If you require brain healthy phosphatides then you can add lecithin from soy or egg yolk , or rice bran oil . 
All ingredients have been declared. 
Here is a label --- all ingredients are declared --


Omega-3 Phospholipid 
Peptide Complex
292 mg**Containing Phospholipids, Omega-3 [DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) and EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid)] and bioactive peptides extracted from Atlantic Salmon (_Salmo salar_), in a balanced ratio as found naturally in salmon; not chemically altered or artificially spiked with DHA/EPA

**Daily Value Not Established

*Other Ingredients: *maltodextrin, tricalcium phosphate, gum arabic, modified cellulose, silica, citrus essential oil, titanium dioxide, microcrystalline cellulose, stearic acid, iron oxide.
*Contains no: *sugar, salt, soy, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn, artificial coloring, artificial flavoring or preservatives. Could be suitable for some vegetarians. No animal by-products.
Heavy metal analysis conducted on every batch using ICP-MS method and found to be pure and safe.
*If pregnant or nursing, consult a health care practitioner before using. *


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

first and foremost Feed-Sentials is FOOD , not a drug , a food which confers many benefits and is a convenient , whole body's supply of all the other requirements over and above the macro nutrients one would get when feeding a raw diet , those being protein , fat and mineral (calcium).

My pups are weaned on to the powder . A bit mixed in with raw goat milk and the first bits of ground chicken with finely ground bone. Then they grow big and strong with energy and shiny coats and no problems with diarrhea or downed pasterns . Wildo in the last month I have taken 3 adults aged 3 to 5 years for OFA --- and as is my experience they are all OFA (should come in good , possibly one excellent) . That is my experience over the last 10 years plus ! good orthopedics . I do put some credit to how they are being fed. 

Calcium is present in all vegetable matter . Not talking about vegetables , but greens . 

The amount of calcium (and other minerals) varies from batch to batch affected by terroir . Depending on where a "green" is grown , the conditions drought / rainy , how and when harvested . I use raw ingredients from the human food stream , nutriceutical , same as the health food greens formulas . The ingredients I use are organic and / or wild crafted. 

Calcium is concomitant . There is no calcium added that is not part of the whole food ingredient. 

The calcium in dandelion greens , for example is 52mg per 28 grams (one ounce) . I can tell you by the pound how many pounds of dried organic dandelions went in to a batch that yields 23 units of 2 (plus) pound units . But I can't tell you how much dandelion greens ended in the unit that you have . 

Everything is added , thoroughly mixed , packaged tight to bulging lid . Made in batches the same week as they are shipped . Hands on . 

When I order my ingredients I buy enough to create 3 batches at most , which allows me a cushion of time to re-order and have the new stuff arrive just as the last of the other is sent away.

Sometimes I get an ingredient from Chile , or America , depending on availability. That would alter the composition. Sometimes I get organic carob from Virginia , other times it comes from Spain. That would alter the composition. 

MSM and Glucosamine are in the batch in a ratio of 2 MSM per 1 Glucosamine. Based on the batch size I provided that would be 2 pounds of MSM and 1 pound of Glucosamine. 
How much is in any particular unit is not known and how much is in the spoon or two that you provide is variable.

These ingredients are in there because I felt they were beneficial to overall health as a part , a supporting ingredient . If one feels more MSM is needed for a specific problem such as demodex where MSM , an organic sulfur is beneficial then MSM as an isolated , independent ingredient should be given. If a dog has advanced orthopedic problems then glucosamine in conjunction with green lipid mussel is a direct therapy.

Food cannot be patented or protected . 

There have been several forum members who have had severe chronic health problems , which were attended to by vets for a long time with resolution , one case coming to mind was an anti biotic resistant staph infection which finally was eliminated allowing the female dog to be spayed . I get feedback all the time with positive results. 
I have contributed to shelter-dogs, have assisted forum members quietly and privately who have rescued dogs , have offered to help a very needy dog that I still wonder what happened to him (Wolfstraum also had some offers to help him) . I have taken on dogs that had actual dates set for euthanasia --- severe malassezia -- and the dog had a good 6 years plus with good health.

If you want I will go through each and every ingredient and tell you how much calcium in barley grass and alfalfa and mint , etc etc.

worst of worst if your dog should eat one or two or three containers of Feed-Sentials is that the dog would be bunged up -- carob is a terrific anti diarrheal -- solid stool for sure .

In fact there honestly was a case where an owner with dog in back seat with an order of the Feed-Sentials discovered too late that the dog was so beautifully quiet because he was guiltily eating the powder after chewing through the container.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

commercial kibble "Here I'm feeding a nice low calcium puppy food " 

my way of feeding dogs has been raw -- interviewed for article in Hoflin Publications fall issue 1983 featuring raw fed dogs . At that time I had been feeding raw for about 5 years but there were lots of interruptions --- resources disappearing. Used to go by public transit (street car) to a kosher chicken slaughter house that used to be on Spadina south of College . Even in the heat of summer. When the Asian community expanded to Broadview and Gerrard I would jump on my bike with dog running beside get exotic cuts and lots of stewing chicken which were in bags slung over the handle bars as dog and I rushed back for kids coming home from school for lunch or final dismissal. Ontario people remember Knob Hill Farms -- well I used to get their 40 pound boxes of chicken legs -- until that business closed and then it was on to the slaughter house direct . 
Feed-Sentials was created for my own use as part of the raw fed diet . A convenient thorough head to tails food -- the whole body . I would never give it a second thought to toss the dog an extra chicken neck or two trying to analyse the calcium. In raw feeding it is the balance over all , over time , variety and volume varying.
From Dogs Naturally Magazine "
*RAW FEEDING GUIDELINES*

The key points to remember with a raw diet are:

Balance over time
The calcium and phosphorus ratio should be 1:1. Meats are high in phosphorus, bones are high in calcium and whole prey, fish, eggs and tripe have a balanced ratio.
Organ meat should not exceed 15% of the diet. Feed liver once a week (or several small servings per week) and try to find an organic source if possible because the liver is responsible for filtering toxins out of the body.
Feel free to feed ‘weird and icky things’ such as chicken feet, beef trachea, tails, lung, kidney, testicles and pizzles. Beef trachea, trim, chicken and turkey feet are loaded in natural chondroitin and glucosamine which help to build healthy joints.
If feeding pork or salmon, be certain to freeze the meat for two weeks before feeding to reduce the small risk of parasites.
NEVER feed cooked bones of any type. Raw bones are soft enough to bend and digest easily. For optimal safety, meal times should always be supervised.
Try to find grass fed animals that are not given hormones or medications if possible. Younger animals in general will have accumulated fewer toxins to pass on to your dog.
*WHAT TO FEED*

One common concern with raw feeding is that it is not ‘complete and balanced’. This is untrue for two reasons. First, nobody knows what complete and balanced is, so it is difficult to make this claim. Second, balance can occur over time: every meal does not need to be completely balanced as long as the nutritional needs of the dog are met over the long run. You don’t calculate the exact percentages of protein and carbohydrates, and the exact amount of vitamins and minerals in each of your meals, and you don’t have to do it with your dog’s meals. If you are prudent, then it will balance out over time.
The majority of my dogs’ diet (about 50%) is raw, meaty bones (RMB). This can include chicken backs, wings and necks (or even whole carcasses), lamb necks, pork necks, turkey necks, ox tails, beef ribs, turkey tails; any meaty bone that can be completely consumed by your dog. If you are feeding meatier meals (turkey or lamb necks), feed about 60% RMB, if your choices are bonier (chicken backs, pork necks, wings or ribs), feed about 40% RMB.
Large, weight bearing bones such as marrow and knuckle bones are not considered RMB’s if the dog is not able to consume the bone. These can be given as a recreational bone although I do not use them because they can break teeth and the softer joints can cause impactions or blockages. I do find beef neck bones to be a wonderful recreational bone for my dogs."


Kibble though is a different thing . Vitamin Pre-mixes. Many from suppliers , manufacturers in China . Not all calcium is bio available !!

also from Dogs Naturally Magazine Think You Can Avoid Pet Foods Made In China? Think Again! | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you for the answer, Carmen. I'm not sure why my private email asking this question was ignored, and all emails since then, but I appreciate the time you spent to post this answer. As far as helping me previously, I thanked you many times for your interest and help with Banshee during that conversation. I'm not sure how it's relevant to this conversation.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax --- I do not see any recent emails. ??


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My emails/PM's were not recent.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

The "asking for trade secrets" comment I would think was directed at me. I have no interest in getting anyone's secrets...LOL...but before I will feed anything to my dog I want a lot more information about *ANY* product and I would think that most people want to know what they are feeding their animals. 

Reason I specifically asked about "garlic powder" is that "garlic or onions" are not recommended for dogs (scroll down to #5) PetDiets - Ask the Veterinary Nutritionist (DVM + PhD)

I also find it "odd" that two brand name products are included in one of the supplements (Prozyme & Primal Defense), I have never seen that before.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

May want to look into the garlic thing more.

I quit giving garlic and brewers yeast to dogs years ago before I had topical flea meds (the spot ons were pretty new to the market and I was concerned about transfer to my kids). Those dogs lived to be 14 and 15! My more recent dogs all died from various cancers between 9 and 11 so....Beau is back to garlic (I am giving springtime) and his food has brewers yeast in it. FWIW-muggy SC, tons of rain and ticks this spring and no fleas or ticks yet!

Bug Off Garlic for Dogs | Natural Flea and Tick Repellent | Springtime, Inc.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

> May want to look into the garlic thing more.


Thanks Nancy but I have looked into it. I get this newsletter from Tufts University (Your Dog) and it was also mentioned in the most recent issue that it's not a good idea to feed onions, garlic and chives to dogs in *ANY* amount.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh I was not clear the dogs who GOT garlic and brewers yeast most of their life lived to be 14 and 15...yes, we each have to make decisions based on what we feel is safe for our pet...one of the things I did with Beau was a very close check of RBC and hemoglobin and hematocrit values which were well in the normal range.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Hi Carmen, I also sent you a PM a few months ago but never received a response. I'm interested in your products but had some questions before I purchased them...


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I can only speak for myself but have gotten a fast turn around on my emails to Carmen through her breeder website email, not PM's from the board.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Going through her website is probably the best thing. We have some rules on advertising products on this board [because people have to pay money to be considered a "vendor" so Carmen may hesitate to answer things from here.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

send me your email questions at [email protected] 

the other address tends to get deleted as spam. I did have major problems about a month ago -- had some virus where if I deleted something it kept multiplying -- then the whole system froze. Apparently there was some problem which affected many -- no computer for about a week or more. 

"...but before I will feed anything to my dog I want a lot more information about *ANY* product and I would think that most people want to know what they are feeding their animals" absolutely every ingredient is listed. Nothing less , nothing more. You can always take each ingredient and check the benefits for k9. 

garlic -- used as a appetite initiator, anti biotic, anti fungal among other things. This is not a major ingredient . Just last week some super garlic product was recommended as a natural flea repellant . The dog would need to consume massive doses of garlic to have a problem . Right now dogs in the fields are biting at the ramps (wild garlic greens) . Garlic for Dogs - Natural Flea Repellent and Health Supplement Dr Mercola's site "Fresh garlic can be given to dogs and cats to prevent internal as well as external parasites. Work with your vet to determine a safe amount for your pet’s body weight"


had meeting today at local health store . While waiting checked the back labels of almost every fish oil product . Seems it is consistent that there is approximately twice as much EPA then there is DHA in fish oil. This is the balance. There was one product which very different Norwegian Gold Super Critical which has 4 times as much EPA as DHA 790 to 140 ---- but it is no longer a natural product -- many of these oils are distilled or this Norwegian Gold is an altered form "The newest Essential Fatty Acid supplement on the market comes from Renew Life and is part of greater series of fish oils in their Norwegian Gold line: Super Critical Omega. One capsule of this product contains 790mg of EPA and 140mg of DHA, as well as 1000IU of the ever-important Vitamin D3 and 5mg of lipase. Lipase is a digestive enzyme that helps break down fats properly in the body and reduces the instances of burping or "repeat". Perhaps the most alluring prospect of this product is the fact that it uses the same delivery mechanism that the Renew Life probiotics do - an aqueous enteric coating that insures the fish oil bypasses the stomach acid and opens in the small intestine where bile and the lipase contained within will emulsify and break down the fat properly for better (they claim up to 3x) absorption. The main reason that products such as this are able to contain such large quantities of EPA and DHA is due to the production of these oils in an ethyl-ester form. This means they have been slightly altered, hence the presence of lipase to aid in the digestion. For people with finicky stomachs or those who prefer the natural triglyceride form for their oils, the NutraSea or Nordic Naturals are great alternatives."

Tried to have a conversation about what it all meant , bad timing , we have a long holiday , day off ! yeah ! tomorrow and there was a rush of people . 

Do you need that much EPA ????? remember that the body will convert them as needed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to the question re lab analysis for purity of the fish oil --- that report is given to me as part of my quality control.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for the response Carmen. Some follow up questions below.



carmspack said:


> The amount of calcium (and other minerals) varies from batch to batch affected by terroir . Depending on where a "green" is grown , the conditions drought / rainy , how and when harvested . I use raw ingredients from the human food stream , nutriceutical , same as the health food greens formulas . The ingredients I use are organic and / or wild crafted.
> 
> Calcium is concomitant . There is no calcium added that is not part of the whole food ingredient.
> 
> The calcium in dandelion greens , for example is 52mg per 28 grams (one ounce) . I can tell you by the pound how many pounds of dried organic dandelions went in to a batch that yields 23 units of 2 (plus) pound units . But I can't tell you how much dandelion greens ended in the unit that you have .


I don't really know what to say about this. I know you have a lot more experience with canine nutrition than me! I feed my puppy Fromm LBP Gold which has 1.01% calcium and 0.95% phosphorous (typical values). I chose this brand both for their outstanding reputation and for the low calcium value. I like the Feed-Sential product as I assume there's lots of good stuff in there for both my dogs. But I don't want to be increasing his calcium intake in any measurable way, or at least- I'd try to avoid it. I'm not sure if the information you've provided here gives me the knowledge I need to decided on whether to continue feeding this to him or not. So far I haven't seen any issues- but how would I really?

Do you ever feed puppies kibble? If so- what is the calcium percentage in the kibble you feed, and do you add your supplement to it?



carmspack said:


> MSM and Glucosamine are in the batch in a ratio of 2 MSM per 1 Glucosamine. Based on the batch size I provided that would be 2 pounds of MSM and 1 pound of Glucosamine.
> How much is in any particular unit is not known and how much is in the spoon or two that you provide is variable.


This is pretty close to what I need. Does not the label on your glucosomine supply state how much is in a certain weight of product? For example, if you had 1500mg of Glucosomine HCl in 3grams of product, and since there is 453.6 grams in a pound, you'd have 226.8grams/pound. And if that 1 pound is split between, say, 23 batches, then you'd have 9.86grams/batch. If a batch weighs 2 pounds total, then you'd have 4.93grams/pound, or 10.9mg of glucosomine/gram of product. I understand that the quantity is variable since this product is a mixture, a suspension if you will. But this math would at least give me an idea of what's in the product and allow me to make a decision on if I need more joint support supplementation for my dog.

This math is not hard at all and I'd be happy to do it on my own if you could provide me (PM would be just fine) with this basic info:
- How much Glucosomine HCl per pound of glucosomine supply?
- How many batches does that 1 pound supply get split into?
- How much does one batch of Feed-Sential product in one container weigh?

We could do the same calculation for MSM as well.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

If the Glucosomine HCl supply is pure glucosomine, then the best case math would be:
- 1 pound/batch or 453.6 grams/batch
- 23 units/batch = 19.72 grams/unit
- 2 pound units = 9.86 grams/pound, or 9860mg/pound, or 173.90mg of glucosomine per 8 grams of Feed-Sentials product.

(And since you said a 2-1 ratio of MSM to Glucosomine, that's be 347.8mg MSM per 8 grams of Feed-Sentials product)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Willy - how are you factoring in the total weight of all the other ingredients in the batch as that is all unknown?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm not sure I follow, Michelle. There's a total of one pound of glucosomine in twenty three 2 pound units. That one pound would reasonably be divided equally 23 times. That gives you the total amount per unit. And if it's mixed perfectly (which of course it couldn't be- but hypothetically) the total amount per 2 pound unit would be directly proportional to the amount in a smaller unit (8g).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I missed the total batch weight of 46 lbs (23 (2) lb units) in Carmen's post.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wildo calcium is not just a measurement because a lot of calcium , in kibble, is not bioavailable. Raw feeding is much better because the bone is still , looking for the right words , live (?) . In kibble the bone meal has probably been processed two to three times if it comes from bone meal . When bone is baked and dried the collagen is destroyed and the bone becomes very dry and brittle -- glass like. Kibble also uses "chalk" as a source of calcium in kibble . 
Do I feed my dogs kibble -- NO -- Feed-Sentials was something that I made for use for my own dogs dietary needs , supplying the everything else beyond the macro nutrients of good known source of protein - unadulterated fat , and macro minerals supplied naturally by the boney content of the meat or whole eggs that were provided. 

Understanding Calcium: The Best Forms of Calcium Supplements | Natural Health & Organic Living Blog

when you provide calcium from whole food leafy greens you also provide vitamin k -- so you won't have calcification . Since it is not an isolated mineral or vitamins things are held in a balance. 

---- I'm going to shut down the computer as a band of severe thunder is heading our way - got dark very quickly
so anything else I'll look at later.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

MSM is human pharmaceutical grade .
Glucosamine is also human pharmaceutical grade.

two MSM per one glucosamine .

If you need either in a measured drug like dosage then you should get capsules . 

I include it because it is a good thing.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks Carmen for answering my questions! I'm good to go with the MSM/Glucosomine stuff. I'll have to research more to understand the calcium stuff. Your explanation is good, but I'll have to dig in to see what that all means in relation to my puppy's food. As much as people stir over calcium percentage levels in kibble, I find it impossible to believe that it wouldn't matter due to bioavailability. _SOME_ of it must be absorbed. And if so, how could I know how much? And how would I know if there's too much in a more bioavailable product such as Feed-Sentials? 

I think what you're saying is that the calcium in Feed-Sentials will be absorbed and utilized by the body since it's in a bioavailable form, while the calcium in kibble will not. So I am in fact giving my dog more calcium by using the product. How will I know if I'm giving too much calcium?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wildo , you would not be supplementing with calcium . Each green material would have calcium as part of its natural chemistry AND would ALSO have phosphorus as part of its natural chemistry so a balance or correct ratio would be maintained between calcium and phosphorus.

When I attend health expos or "the market" I get experience with one on one discussions about feeding , raw feeding I particular which is still new to many. People ask about some problem the dog is having . First question is what are you feeding your dog. Many thought feeding raw meant muscle meat , ground hamburg, chicken breasts, and the boney portion was the big knuckle bone for the recreational chew. The approximate ratio would be 1 calcium to 18 phosphorus . The ratio should be 1 to 2 to 1 .
Again balance over the long term , not each and every meal , so the occasional "steak" is okay , but over the long term with this over abundance of phosphorus the calcium would migrate out of the bones and be deposited elsewhere , the liver as example. Bone then becomes brittle with osteoporosis.
Here are some ratios -- lettuce leaf 28 mg calcium to 14 mg phosphorus , or 1:05 , dandelion greens 1:03 . 

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/dogfood01cap.pdf


When my pups leave to go to their new homes they leave with a complementary Feed-Sentials and Sh-Emp. I want those new owners to give these pups the best nutritional experience during critical growth times. It is MY experience that we have excellent orthopedic results . Can not recall the last dog that I have placed that had a hip problem and I do guarantee to OFA certify at 2 years . Of course many dogs aren't around that long as they go in to service , selected between one year and 18 months . Good hip results are a must . X rays and "clear" hips and elbows are a pre-sale requirement . The plates are then sent on to the depts. vet of choice -- and often they will re x-ray anyway. My own dogs , in the last month I have taken 3 dogs of my breeding aged 3 to 5 years for OFA certification -- 2 a clear high "good" 1 should be "excellent" . This has been my trend (oh knock on wood) for the last 10 or more years , one after the other , (knock on wood)

Wildo --- my vet is not crazy about raw feeding . Nevertheless he can not deny the health and consistent good hip x ray results . 
Also no pano and no down pasterns or soft ligaments.

The mixture was made for raw feeding as the 'everything else' to include greens sourced from herbaceous and grassy greens . You can use it for top dressing a kibble to enhance or raise the overall plane of nutrition.

I don't know what else I can contribute to the discussion.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Willy, you can look up almost every ingredient in these products for the calcium amount. Here is a good place to start
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Seaweed, spirulina, dried


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In that analysis the calcium to phosphorus ratio is 134 mg calcium to 132 mg phosphorus -- perfect ratio . 13% to 13% , 1 to 1 .
Rosehips as example 47.3 mg calcium to 17.1 mg phosphorus which is 5% to 2% which is 2 to 1 ratio . 
Balanced.

You are going to find that with great frequency in whole food . When things are isolated, removed, synthetic then we don't know how or if anything has an affect. Or if it has the co-factors that make it available .


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

The thing I don't understand is the continual focus on the ratio of Ca to P. I get that the ratio is important, but certainly so is the actual amount. This is why when we have discussions about puppy kibble, we mention a desired calcium level of 1.00 to 1.05%. This number isn't a comment on ratio, it's a comment on content quantity. We do _also_ look at the Ca ratio, but quantity level seems equally important.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

because calcium is never presented outside of a correct balance . It is not isolated . "we mention a desired calcium level of 1.00 to 1.05%." in relation to phosphorus . The body needs to maintain a balance. If there is a difficiency in calcium the body will remove it from its own calcium stores in the skeleton. There needs to be calcium in the blood to regulate hormones and heart beat , nerve transmission, blood clotting , muscle contraction. 

In order for calcium to be properly absorbed and used it has to be partnered with phosphorus, magnesium , vitamin K and D . 
Your and your dog's first food , milk , is calcium phosphorus .
Calcium from exo skeleton and clam shells is not well absorbed. Bedpan bullets ! 
These are inorganic forms of calcium.

One of the benefits from getting calcium from a plant source is that plants have already done all the work in transforming minerals and calcium into ORGANIC form which can be metabolized and absorbed.

These are things that you look into seriously when your personal diet is predominantly vegetarian and when you have a strapping young son who is athletically active announce one day that he is chosing to be a Vegan.

That brings up another thing. The need for calcium changes with activity and stress . 

Too much calcium , which does not need to mean overall percentage , but a ratio of Calcium to Magnesium , and you have calcium deposited into soft tissue , kidney stones, hardening arteries , arthritis .

I told you there were no simple one or two sentence answers . 

It is all about the relationship of one mineral to all others.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I have been following this thread and was somewhat hesitant to reply as my experience with raw feeding, Feed Sentials K9, Shemp Oil etc. is limited. When I lost Floyd at 7 years old to Hemangiosarcoma, my family and I were beyond devastated. His death for some reason was more difficult to accept than any of our beloved past dogs. I had decided at that ime that the GSD was not for us. How could I risk putting my family through that again. The GSD has so many issues, health and behavioral...both of which Floyd had.
After abit of time I could not shake my need for another GSD. I was referred to Carmen. She was patient and spent much time discussing with me what I hoped to find and was it possible. My biggest fear was that of health issues. After much time via email and phone calls, my kids and I went to visit her. What I saw was so very different from what Floyd was. Carmen's dogs had an energy and brightness that is hard to describe. I saw power that was indescribable. from puppies to mature dogs, not one of her dogs look old and tired. I soon realized that even if I did not purchase one of Carmen's puppies she would still share her knowledge with me. After many conversations I believe the health and overall well-being of her dogs was not just from a finely tuned breeding program, but also because of her knowledge of raw feeding. Carmen developed her supplements to balance yhe raw fed diet for her own use and the well being of her own dogs. She sends the supplements home with her puppies knowing that what she is giving them is a pure and healthy supplements that will insure they grow to their full potential. She knows from experience what her supements have done to help so many dogs who suffer from endless debilitating allergies and compimised immune systems. I have seen her offer yhese supements free of charge to help rescue dogs in horrible condition.
In the end, I cannot vouch for the inner workings and how the percentages of each ingredient effect calcium absorbtion etc. I can however state that Carmen has proven time and again that she knows what she is talking about and what is best for the dogs is always a priority for her.
If you are not comfortable with her supplements, advice etc., its ok as she has big shoulders and a line up of followers eager to learn everything they can from her. I feed Gus a raw diet and yes I add Feed Sentials, and Shemp Oil daily. I also give Gus the Phyt'n chance once a week. My family now adds Phyt'n chance to our daily smoothies and plan to also add the Sundae Sunday to our daily regimen shortly.
Gus could not look better. Steady growth, strong and that same sharp sparkle I saw in Carmen's dogs. His coat is remarkable and to my surprise he sheds very little.

To each their own but I love what I have and cannot say enough when it comes to Carmen and her dedication to the GSD.

Cathy


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Please excuse the typos......made this posting from my phone.

Cathy


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I have no doubt of Carmen's credentials and experience. I've also seen her supplements work miracles. (She was quite gracious in providing Sh-Emp oil to a foster of mine some time ago, which I used with great results.) But that doesn't mean I need to blindly accept anything. This thread has exposed to me that I am not sufficiently providing my soon-to-be senior with appropriate levels of joint support. I'm glad I asked... I see no problem in asking.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Your right...there is nothing wrong with asking.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

joint support does not begin and end with MSM or Glucosamine . Anti inflammatories , anti oxidants, essential fatty acids, phytonutrients , detoxification and the availability of micro and trace minerals. Those are important . The body is a whole , not bits and pieces.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> joint support does not begin and end with MSM or Glucosamine . Anti inflammatories , anti oxidants, essential fatty acids, phytonutrients , detoxification and the availability of micro and trace minerals. Those are important . The body is a whole , not bits and pieces.


This is a really good point!


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