# Frustration Biting



## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

Hello, 


We have a 3 year old "working line" GSD who was not properly socialized human or dog when he was young. 

He has had a 4 or 5 biting incidents with family members (2 needing stitches) but has not had any problems with other dogs. 

Every bite he seems to get anxious/frustrated and is trying to correct what we are doing or doesn't like what we are doing. 

I will try and add some more history but he doesn't like people leaving rooms or outside going inside and he also gets worked up when he sees light reflections (like plastic reflecting and creating a light on the wall). When he was young he was exposed to a laser light but since he would get too worked up we banned them from the house. 

Also when it is sunny out he will sit and then chase bird shadows for hours all day. 

I took this video last year of how he gets worked up with reflections (need 3 posts for links will add after)

This is a more recent video of him with a neighbor's dog )need 3 posts for links will add after)

When he bites he gets frustrated, Does that frustrated growl and jumps up, If your calm and tell him to off & sit he does but if you fight him or throw him off he gets worked up and escalates to biting. 

I know he needs professional training or a new owner but how should he punished for jumping up? if you escalate he escalates but if you calm him down then the moment is lost. 

Any advice would be appreciated


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This sounds to me like a dog that (a) needs much more exercise and (b) obedience training and (c) more positive interaction with his people.

No amount of anything will make a good working line dog happy being left to his own devices for long periods of time. These dogs NEED to be with you, and they need a strong leader. Have you had the dog since he was a little puppy, or did you get him afterward? What makes you think he wasn't socialized correctly?

If you don't have time or the energy to devote to the dog, for exercise and play and training, rehoming him might be your best bet.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

Definitely get a trainer in to you help you!

I wouldn't punish for jumping up... ignoring him until he sits is the best.
Do you have a "no reward" marker to let him know he is doing something wrong and that he needs to try something else to get the correct response from you?
Do you do any obedience training with him?


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

Little more history, (Can't believe it has gotten this out of control)

He originally was my brothers dog (we are both in our 40's) spending most of the day with him but the problem is because we have a rural property he did not get much exposure to other dogs or people. 

He wasn't very well trained so he was sort of confined to one area of the house. When he was just over one and after his 2nd bite we took him to have him neutered but the female vet did not feel comfortable with his obedience and was uncomfortable when he growled at her so she declined to do the procedure. 

We then took him to a consultation with a trainer who recommended using marker/e collar training, he said since he was not very well trained he would only offer private lessons (think it was $100 per hour) and said he would need 2 years of training. On the trip to the trainer he barked the whole way (inside of truck cab) and bit into two seats causing around $900 in damage. 

We started exercising him more (two walks a day, more yard play) and doing more obedience work and he was showing improvement. Since it was such a hassle to get him to the trainer and the expense we didn't set up any further professional training. 

Then one morning he jumped up on my brother sitting on the couch who tried to pushing him away and that escalated into a full blown attack causing stitches. The next morning my brother and I were walking out (I was 5 steps in front) to take him outside and he sort of half jumped up on my brother (more a play jump) but my brother overreacted (fear from the day before) and started yelling "get him off me" and that escalated another attack. It was more opening the previous days stitches but since then I took over his care. 

I started training him, He does the basics, sit, stay, down, shake a paw, bark on command and will stay at open doors until I say break. The problem is when he is excited everything goes out the window. 

I have been using a ET-300 mini educator, His working level is a 7-8 but when distracted he won't come until a 20-30 level 

We have been keeping him separated from everyone unless he is muzzled, My brother has come on walks with him when muzzled but a couple time he has become aggressive towards him and jumped up on him. The only reason I can figure is my brother was staring at him one time and then was walking in front of us the other. I don't know if it is a pack order thing or ? 

My brother has taken him out of his cage once by himself without a muzzle and took him out for the bathroom and then back in the house without any problems. It is odd like a switch flips and he gets crazy. 

He has bitten me twice, the first time during my brothers attack I grabbed him by the collar and threw him out of the house (he caught my hand on the way out) 

Then 3 weeks ago the power was out and it was getting dark and when I checked my cell phone I think the light in a dark room set him off. He jumped up biting my arm (lucky I had a jacket on) and I over overreacted swearing at him and throwing him out (he caught my finger but no stitches) 

I left him out in the cold for about 3 hours and then put him in his cage. 

Now most of the time he is alright he just has these episodes. 

Here is his typical day, 

Sleeps in a cage in a bedroom from 10pm-9:30 sometimes 10am 
I take him out, normally 20 mins around the yard then a 30 min walk. Every 2-3 days the neighbors dog has come over and they run around an open field and play. This has just started to happen the last month. overall about 1 hour outside 

Noon he eats and then we go out for a bathroom break about 1:30-2:00pm

around 4 we go on another 30 min walk with some time in the field, he sniffs around and I go to the other side and call him to get him some runs in. 

Around 6 I give him a little more food 

6:30 out for a pee

8:00 out for pee 

10pm out for a pee then bed


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

One more thing, 

He used to chase balls or a small hoop but now he gets bored easily and won't do it for long. 

His favorite game is when he grabs something and won't let you catch him but the trainer said that reinforces bad behavior. 

He has also always barked or will attack anything moving like cars, ride on lawn mower or bicycles. Since we are rural it has not been a problem but obviously something that should be corrected


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This is a very sad story. Dogs like this need to have daily training and play with their people, letting them out to pee and sniff isn't enough, walking them a bit isn't enough. You need to engage with the dog daily!

At this point, I think you need to find a trainer that has extensive GSD experience to help you learn how to work with this dog. Using an e-collar incorrectly just confuses and frustrates the dog. Most trainers I know use e-collars for proofing only...that is, behaviors are taught without the collar first, with treats and praise. Then once the dog fully understands what you want, the e-collar is used to remind him when distractions are present. I personally know a couple people with GSDs that did board and trains with trainers who teach using an e-collar, and neither of them were happy with the results! 

That being said, you don't have to commit to 2 yrs of training; I'd be really skeptical of any trainer who thought it would take that long. But you definitely need to work with a professional trainer so you can learn to work with your dog correctly. And then you need to carve out time to train and play with your dog every day.

And tell your brother to stop staring at the dog! Staring at a dog is a direct challenge. What surprises me here is not that the dog eventually bit your brother, but that he didn't do it sooner! 

It sounds like you have a really good dog there, train him, engage with him in play daily, and stop challenging him, and he'll show you how great he can be!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Where is he and what is he doing during all the time during the day in between the "out for a pee"?

Is he loose in house, crated, what?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

This is a very dangerous situation and it does not sound like you have the experience to manage it. There is no responsible advice to be given except PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get with the trainer.

Don't rehome a dog with a bite history, unless an established trainer or handler wants him.

And what do you mean the vet wouldn't take on a dog that growled? I could see asking you to muzzle him before she interacts, but WTHeck kind of vet refuses treatment flat out over a growl? Also, from what I have been told neutering is not an automatic cure for these things in any event.

Please get a trainer.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

And you can forget about neutering. Why do people think that they can replace that with training?!!! Take charge of this dog. He spends 12 hours in a crate, just for the night alone? No wonder he has problems. The exercise you give him, doesn't help one bit. He needs work, work and work, non-nonsense leadership and mental exercise like solving problems. Get a trainer or re-home him to someone who knows these dogs. Get in touch with a club. Forget about a rescue as most of them just 'love' dogs but don't solve their issues before rehoming them to the appropriate home. Where are you located?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't think any reputable rescue would touch this dog with a ten foot pole.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't think any reputable rescue would touch this dog with a ten foot pole.


I don't think many people would, period. That is a major bite history. It would have to be a very serious dog person/trainer, I would think.

What about getting him evaluated for police work? An evaluation with a serious group, trainer, vet, ect. is a good plan anyway.


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

Hello, 

I should say this is winter schedule, In the nicer no rainy weather he would spend 2-3 hours outside in fenced acreage chasing birds ect.. 

"Is he loose in house, crated, what?"

He is inside the house but confined to a kitchen/family area away from other people in the house 

"And what do you mean the vet wouldn't take on a dog that growled? I could see asking you to muzzle him before she interacts, but WTHeck kind of vet refuses treatment flat out over a growl?"

He was muzzled going in, She didn't feel comfortable having him not muzzled when he would be in recovery. The trainer agreed with you and also advised the neutering wouldn't always help. 

I agree he was a bad choice for us, bought from a bad breeder ect but I am trying to make it work. I also agree that a rescue will not take him and rehoming him will be a challenge until he is trained. So I either solve the problem or he gets euthanized. 

What is the max time he should spend in the cage? Any links to some games/problem solving activities? I just started using a kong a couple weeks ago and he seems to like the challenge of getting the treats out. 

He also hates riding in the truck (inside back seat area in a crew cab), he barks at the other cars going by. I think I need to solve that and start getting him to a trainer (most trainers are 30 mins away)

I am from Abbotsford BC Canada 

Here is a video from a month ago when he was first meeting/playing with the neighbor's dog. He is a bit better with her now and even lets her chase him around


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Well, there is still really only one answer here. The trainer. I give you credit for seeing it through one way or another.I had to put a down for unraveling nerves and he became unstable and dangerous.He had a switch.Trainers all advised the same thing. Could not responsibly rehome him, K9 handlers did not feel he would be able to do anything as he was not stable and had an unprovoked bite history. If you read under this section "what happened" thread, that is my whole story with him.

When you say other people in the house, are there more others than your brother? Kids? Elderly parents?

He is beautiful, and I hope this is something the trainer can teach you to manage. Even then, it could be 2 years down the road and you can let your guard down for just a split second. So you would be signing up for 110% commitment for the rest of the dog's life.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

His play looks appropriate. He allowed the other dog to meet him. Nothing wrong as far as I can see in this clip. It sounds harsh but I think everyone has failed this dog due to lack of training, exercise, mental stimulation and leadership and now he has a bite history. I doubt that the police department takes him. They need stable dogs. Maybe he has it in him, depending on his linage. It is a sad story.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I agree with finding a working dog club. Either get involved and train the dog in a way that will satisfy his drives or re-home to someone that will. I have no doubt that if my german shepherds had the routine listed above they would be out of control also. I went onto your you tube channel and watched the other 2 max videos. he looks like a very nice dog. the question you have to honestly answer is how much time are you willing to spend training him. not just sit, stay type training. Bitework in a constructive disciplined way.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

In all honesty, I get the idea the frustration is in you, he's more along the lines of confused and defending himself. I'm not knocking you, I just think its become a pattern in the way you react to his behavior and there's going to be a lot of work breaking that pattern. Maybe he's not the most stable dog, and bored too. I think you need some one in person there to show you not only what to do, but what not to do.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

What was interesting and possibly not widely known when it comes to rehoming dogs that bite (which I am against anyway, unless it is with an established trainer or handler), is that in some states/counties etc you are not allowed to or are deemed responsible beyond transferring ownership. I had asked a personal injury lawyer client of mine about it..I had said that if a K9 handler WOULD take my dog I would have him sign an acknowledgement that the dog has a history of unprovoked serious bites. I was told even in doing that, you can not make binding contracts that circumvent the law. I know you are in Canada but if you do decide to rehome to a trainer or breed savvy qualified person, look up your local statutes on dog bite liability.


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

I agree with everyone it is our vault this dog is in this situation, It has been the last 8 months I have gotten more involved. 

My parents (60's) do live here also but in a seperate part of the house. I am spending most of my day with Max now but 2 hours of working/exercise time is about my time commitment. If he was a little safer my brother would get more involved, He will walk him on a muzzle currently. 

How much exercise/training per day do you think he needs? If you don't mind can you post some of your routines

How long would you cage him for overnight? Is moving his cage to a more common area better for him so he can see people?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

jcb said:


> How much exercise/training per day do you think he needs? If you don't mind can you post some of your routines
> 
> How long would you cage him for overnight? Is moving his cage to a more common area better for him so he can see people?


 The crate thing I don't know. I don't crate my dogs at night. They get crated through out the day. Except one. He kept escaping from his crate so I just leave him out. It's nice to have a dog to bark at the door or window if someone is messing around outside.
As far as training, I have three dogs that I have to train. So, I wake up let dogs out, they come back in we do some generic obedience stuff probably 10-15 minutes a piece. They chill while I get ready for work back outside for a while then in crates. I get home take the dogs back outside. They potty then we'll all play and fool around outside for an hour or so. Back inside I'll get cleaned up from work take the dogs outside to train individually. 20 minutes a piece usually. This is training with a ball or tug. So obedience then chase a ball or bite a tug. When we go inside it's in the crate for 1/2 hour or so to process what we just went over. If the weather is nice enough I try and take Athena tracking at this point. In the summer time when it's daylight until 9:30-10:00 I'll do two afternoon sessions. This is on non club days. I go to club every Sunday. Since I started doing helper work there, I try and go to the guy who is teaching me helper work 2-3 times a week to try and get me on some dogs and have him work my female in bite work. This is where I feel the biggest difference comes into play with her. She is more of an aggressive natured dog than a lot of dogs I see and I have no doubt from the way she was before we started doing IPO that if we didn't do this she would be similar to your dog. Basically she was going to chase and bite things. People included. So either I train her in something that was going to satisfy her natural desires and instincts. Or, I fight her with it the rest of her life. Anyway, I am sure others train more than me but this is my routine. Running a Drywall and paint business pays my bills but it does cut into my training time.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

It's been my experience that dogs who have been deprived long term of exercise, mental stimulation, and companionship don't get right right away if you fix it. The habitual way of being can be hard to overcome.

The opposite is also true, dogs who are completely satisfied most of the time can be deprived for short periods and cope without acting out.

Not to discourage you from doing more with your dog at all...just more to say it might take time for the dog to reach a new normal.

My dogs have a walk per day, mostly off leash, 1-2 miles depending. They typically also do a training session most days which involves a lot of play and a lot of mental challenge, sometimes I take them to town or to dog training places for trials or run thurs and so on.
he trains for tracking, rally and service work
she trains for rally and nosework. So they don't get drilled on the same old boring thing every day

I usually sit out with them in the yard and they play for some amount of time...depending on the weather.

They spend a few hours per day in their kennels sleeping. The rest of the time they are with me, following me around doing whatever I am doing. We live on acreage so often this means outside running around or playing while I work.

They sleep in the bedroom with us, one in the bed, one not, depending on their preference.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

CometDog said:


> What was interesting and possibly not widely known when it comes to rehoming dogs that bite (which I am against anyway, unless it is with an established trainer or handler), is that in some states/counties etc you are not allowed to or are deemed responsible beyond transferring ownership. I had asked a personal injury lawyer client of mine about it..I had said that if a K9 handler WOULD take my dog I would have him sign an acknowledgement that the dog has a history of unprovoked serious bites. I was told even in doing that, you can not make binding contracts that circumvent the law. I know you are in Canada but if you do decide to rehome to a trainer or breed savvy qualified person, look up your local statutes on dog bite liability.


I doubt that a GSD bites 'unprovoked'. They usually display a scala of warning signs that the average owner misses. Yet, the dog gets the blame. I think this dog can be rehabbed to a certain degree. Personally I never consider a dog with a bite history 'cured'; he will always need to be carefully managed so you also have to look at your personal future plans. Will he fit it then? Your liability is high due to his history.
OP, please give it your all, read up on this forum and you may very well end up with the best dog ever. His life is hanging by a thread.
Read this and put it in the search engine: NILIF
Not just mind-numbing exercise but make it fun and you will start to enjoy it as well. Start at home, in the back yard until he is under control. 
Invest in a trainer who knows working dogs, not the average pooch trainer who just works with treats. 
Do NOT use an Ecollar unless you are working with a good trainer.
Check out this website: Leerburg.com for training tips and purchase of material.
Given that his needs are met: he can be crated during the night, but only when you sleep. I assume you don't sleep 12 hours? That is way too long for a dog like him. I wouldn't let him be loose in the house at night to show him who is in charge here. During the day he can be crated for an hour a few times but there has to be a balance. 
In the meantime don't put him in situations you know will or can cause trouble to keep everyone safe.
PM me if needed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You are blaming this on a lack of socialization? I"m sorry, but I just don't buy into that theory. You have an unstable dog. 

Get a trainer. You need professional help. I doubt a working dog club wants this liability. Dogs get banned from the USCA for biting inappropriately and stitches would meet that criteria.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I doubt that a GSD bites 'unprovoked'. They usually display a scala of warning signs that the average owner misses. Yet, the dog gets the blame. I think this dog can be rehabbed to a certain degree. Personally I never consider a dog with a bite history 'cured'; he will always need to be carefully managed so you also have to look at your personal future plans. Will he fit it then? Your liability is high due to his history.
> OP, please give it your all, read up on this forum and you may very well end up with the best dog ever. His life is hanging by a thread.
> Read this and put it in the search engine: NILIF
> Not just mind-numbing exercise but make it fun and you will start to enjoy it as well. Start at home, in the back yard until he is under control.
> ...


What I meant by unprovoked is he wasn't threatened, annoyed (like kid pulling tail), being confronted. The handlers I had Called his bite an unprovoked bite on a known child. I see what you mean though. He was provoked, but by God knows what. Unwarranted maybe might be better terminology.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> You have an unstable dog.
> 
> Get a trainer. You need professional help. I doubt a working dog club wants this liability. Dogs get banned from the USCA for biting inappropriately and stitches would meet that criteria.


 Even if the club decided that they didn't want the dog in their club. Having people that know dogs getting eyes on the dog could prove invaluable.


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

I should mention the breeder (not a good one) had a two puppies in his litter rushed to the vet because I think they ate rocks or something. I am not sure the exact story but they were revived, He said Max was not one of those pups but I have always wondered if maybe he just has a loose screw. 

The one thing with all of his bites he became quickly anxious before every bite, one was leaving the room closing the door. The others could have been caused by light reflections but I am not sure on that. I know when he bit me my phone in a dark room (power out) is what seems to trigger him (he was sitting in a chair next to me) 

The only reason it is 11 hours in the cage is so I can do some things around the house without him like vacuum and have a couple hours "off"

Right now I am trying to get him used to the muzzle but I also need to get him to calm down while driving. I could probably get a travel crate for the back (inside truck) but not sure he will go in easy


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CometDog said:


> What was interesting and possibly not widely known when it comes to rehoming dogs that bite (which I am against anyway, unless it is with an established trainer or handler), is that in some states/counties etc you are not allowed to or are deemed responsible beyond transferring ownership. I had asked a personal injury lawyer client of mine about it..I had said that if a K9 handler WOULD take my dog I would have him sign an acknowledgement that the dog has a history of unprovoked serious bites. I was told even in doing that, you can not make binding contracts that circumvent the law. I know you are in Canada but if you do decide to rehome to a trainer or breed savvy qualified person, look up your local statutes on dog bite liability.


A little off topic, but not so long ago a dog mauled both of its owners to death across the state line. According to that state's law, the dog had to be euthanized but a judge permitted a dog trainer from MY state to take this dog for rehabbing. Being that this trainer was only a half hour away from me and was well known for training at a park that I frequent, a few of us locals contacted our state's dog warden. We were informed that since the fatalities took place out of state, the dog had a clean slate in our state and there was nothing that could be legally done.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

jcb said:


> I should mention the breeder (not a good one) had a two puppies in his litter rushed to the vet because I think they ate rocks or something. I am not sure the exact story but they were revived, He said Max was not one of those pups but I have always wondered if maybe he just has a loose screw.
> 
> The one thing with all of his bites he became quickly anxious before every bite, one was leaving the room closing the door. The others could have been caused by light reflections but I am not sure on that. I know when he bit me my phone in a dark room (power out) is what seems to trigger him (he was sitting in a chair next to me)
> 
> ...


Is there any way that you can put this dog outside for your couple of hours off? Also, what kind of a muzzle are you using on this dog?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A little off topic, but not so long ago a dog mauled both of its owners to death across the state line. According to that state's law, the dog had to be euthanized but a judge permitted a dog trainer from MY state to take this dog for rehabbing. Being that this trainer was only a half hour away from me and was well known for training at a park that I frequent, a few of us locals contacted our state's dog warden. We were informed that since the fatalities took place out of state, the dog had a clean slate in our state and there was nothing that could be legally done.


Oh wow, that is not good :/ Do you ever encounter them? It is surprising any trainer would take a dog that did that, right?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CometDog said:


> Oh wow, that is not good :/ Do you ever encounter them? It is surprising any trainer would take a dog that did that, right?


I have never encountered them but what worries me is he encourages children to interact with it. I have literally seen the pictures posted on line.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have never encountered them but what worries me is he encourages children to interact with it. I have literally seen the pictures posted on line.


Wow, it just keeps getting worse


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

He has 3 muzzles,

Nylon, plastic basket type and a almost enclosed leather one. He tolerates them but tries to remove them if he gets a chance.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have never encountered them but what worries me is he encourages children to interact with it. I have literally seen the pictures posted on line.


Somebody should take action in your community. There is a sex offender registry in every state so it would be good to have a dangerous dog registry as well. I guess that's why we end up with all these aggressive dogs from out of state.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Somebody should take action in your community. There is a sex offender registry in every state so it would be good to have a dangerous dog registry as well. I guess that's why we end up with all these aggressive dogs from out of state.


This state does have a dangerous dog registry. The problem is that if the attack took place out of state, the dog is given a clean slate when it is transferred across state lines. It makes my state a prime dumping ground for dangerous dogs by unscrupulous rescues.

Several of us did contact the dog warden and were advised there is nothing that can be done short of changing the law and that is a whole other ball game.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This state does have a dangerous dog registry. The problem is that if the attack took place out of state, the dog is given a clean slate when it is transferred across state lines. It makes my state a prime dumping ground for dangerous dogs by unscrupulous rescues.
> 
> Several of us did contact the dog warden and were advised there is nothing that can be done short of changing the law and that is a whole other ball game.


Do you happen to live in OR?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Do you happen to live in OR?


No, I am on the other side of the country.


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

when I say "out for a pee" it is 5-20 mins outside walking around the yard depending on weather (sometimes he wants to come in) 

I think I will post a feeler ad to re-home him and see if anyone who is qualified wants him or can recommend a trainer


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

jcb said:


> when I say "out for a pee" it is 5-20 mins outside walking around the yard depending on weather (sometimes he wants to come in)
> 
> I think I will post a feeler ad to re-home him and see if anyone who is qualified wants him or can recommend a trainer


Any luck locating a trainer?


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

OP, I commend you for wanting to do what seems best for the dog, but I fully agree with @Jax08. This dog sounds to have bad wiring. It may be genetic in origin, it may be congenital, or it may be the result of some kind of trauma. I, for one, doubt that lack of training and exposure, or even poor/bad training would result in the totality of things you've described. What I'm getting at is this sounds to be more than a "training" issue; appropriate management will be equally, if not more important. Experienced eyes on the dog (e.g., a GSD trainer referred by a local IPO club) will be critical in determining what you're dealing with and what will be required to manage and train the dog. That's one option, but take the steps to make sure that you're fully informed about what the option might entail and whether you and your family are fully prepared to take that on. 

I don't think that rehoming or placement (with a rescue) are viable options. Even if you could locate a suitably experienced home, it's doubtful that they'd want to take him on. And, as noted above, rescues generally don't take dogs with this kind of history, including serious bites. If you choose to pursue rehoming/placement, I believe that you're morally obligated to fully disclose the history of this dog --- as you've done here. To do otherwise just doesn't bear thinking about....

The fourth option (which many folks hesitate to mention) is euthanasia. I don't reflexively suggest that people consider that option, even with so-called difficult animals. But, sometimes, the animal's mind is simply not wired right and the behavior is/becomes unpredictably unstable. When the owner/handler also is over her/his head, with too few resources to manage the behavior, the situation becomes dangerous to all concerned. Reading between the lines, I think that may be where you are now. 

I commend you for your attempts to help this dog; particularly your openness about the challenges that you've faced. That said, I know what I would consider in the situation you've described and encourage you to at least consider that option as well. 

Good luck,

Aly


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

Hey Guys, 

The last couple of days have been pretty good with Max getting 2+ hours of exercise even though it is has been raining I would take him out for a walk with lots of open field comes across the field. 

Then today it was sunny out and he had about 45 minutes of walking/open field but a truck came by triggering his chasing of vehicles. He ran after the truck along the fence and after the truck left he ran across a long field redirected on me jumping up & nipping at my arm/jacket. It lasted about 30 seconds and he listened to the sit/stop command but had a crazy look in his eyes. 

He didn't have a e collar on but even a correction with that or leash or fighting him off causes him to escalate more. My father said get a cattle prong but I know that is not the answer. 

Max can be great 90% of the time but it that unknown switch that goes off. 

I would never give him to anyone or a shelter without disclosing his history but I am not sure if he can be saved


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

jcb said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> The last couple of days have been pretty good with Max getting 2+ hours of exercise even though it is has been raining I would take him out for a walk with lots of open field comes across the field.
> 
> ...


Some dogs do have a loose wire that occasionally trips causing them to lose control and become unstable. Some dogs who have never been taught to cap their drive can temporarily seem to lose control or redirect on something or someone else. the last episode you described with chasing the truck sounds more like he was just redirecting or unsure how to release the pressure from a high prey drive situation. 
Without seeing the other episodes how vicious would you say the dog was. was it outright aggression or play "at least in the dogs mind" that escalated into a bite through frustration?
Its the other episodes that without seeing exactly what happened is hard for me to say. What do you suppose would happen if the next time he tried his biting crap you and he had a come to Jesus moment. I have always said that my dogs would only bite me "intentionally with bad intention" once. Then it would be correction of a lifetime. If they couldn't be taught through extreme immediate force that biting me or another human was not an option they would be put down. I don't really mean an e-collar correction or a leash pop. I mean something that if someone saw would probably get the authorities called. If you don't think that is an option than I recommend either re-homing to someone that can or will. Other option is euthanasia.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> Some dogs do have a loose wire that occasionally trips causing them to lose control and become unstable. Some dogs who have never been taught to cap their drive can temporarily seem to lose control or redirect on something or someone else. the last episode you described with chasing the truck sounds more like he was just redirecting or unsure how to release the pressure from a high prey drive situation.
> Without seeing the other episodes how vicious would you say the dog was. was it outright aggression or play "at least in the dogs mind" that escalated into a bite through frustration?
> Its the other episodes that without seeing exactly what happened is hard for me to say. What do you suppose would happen if the next time he tried his biting crap you and he had a come to Jesus moment. I have always said that my dogs would only bite me "intentionally with bad intention" once. Then it would be correction of a lifetime. If they couldn't be taught through extreme immediate force that biting me or another human was not an option they would be put down. I don't really mean an e-collar correction or a leash pop. I mean something that if someone saw would probably get the authorities called. If you don't think that is an option than I recommend either re-homing to someone that can or will. Other option is euthanasia.


I'd do the same thing with my dog, but I'd be very cautious of attempting to have a "come to jesus" type moment with this dog until he's had more obedience training! I don't see that ending well for you... The thing that strikes me in your posts though, OP (which means original poster), is that every time you've mentioned more exercise you've also mentioned the dog has done better. 

This dog has likely been over crated and under exersized most of its life. He needs a positive outlet for his energy, and mental stimulation which comes from training, games, and work of some kind! I hope you can find a trainer to help you with him, he really is a beautiful dog!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

jcb said:


> It lasted about 30 seconds and he listened to the sit/stop command but had a crazy look in his eyes.
> 
> He didn't have a e collar on* but even a correction with that or leash or fighting him off causes him to escalate more*.


This happened on a good day? Bolding is mine because I think attention should be paid.

Aly


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

In the video he appears to be a long coat. I did not know long coats were in the working lines. Is this true?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nurse Bishop said:


> In the video he appears to be a long coat. I did not know long coats were in the working lines. Is this true?


Yes, they are.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Nurse Bishop said:


> In the video he appears to be a long coat. I did not know long coats were in the working lines. Is this true?


From what I understand, the long coat gene is recessive (?) and a puppy can be born with it if the parents carry that gene, no matter the line. WGSL, ASL, WL, even BYB dogs can have long coat. Someone else will chime in with the exact science behind it because genetics is not my strong suit.


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

It was a long day today, Max spent most of the day outside and had allot of exercise 

I have contacted this trainer who has rehabilitated some GSD before, 

Rescues ? Top Dog Training

Hopefully he will want to take him on

I don't think the "come to jesus" will work with this dog, Today was say a 7 out 10 on the aggression scale. 

I am not sure if he had a muzzle & e collar on if he would even stop with e-collar at 100, it just aggravates him further.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This trainer looks like a good choice. Please keep us updated!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

jcb said:


> It was a long day today, Max spent most of the day outside and had allot of exercise
> 
> I have contacted this trainer who has rehabilitated some GSD before,
> 
> ...


Ask the trainer what he thinks about ditching the e and the prong, at least for a while, and focusing on a less confrontational, managed plan, teaching him what you want him to do instead of always trying to stop things.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Ask the trainer what he thinks about ditching the e and the prong, at least for a while, and focusing on a less confrontational, managed plan, teaching him what you want him to do instead of always trying to stop things.


Yes! Calm things down. I wonder if clicker training could have an unexpected successful effect.


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

wolfy dog said:


> Yes! Calm things down. I wonder if clicker training could have an unexpected successful effect.


I did try a clicker but he didn't seem to care but I will pull it out. 

I have never used a prong collar on him.. 

When not excited he will sit, stay, wait at open doors, stay food, shake a paw, down & bark on command. 

It is a boundaries issue that he thinks it is ok to jump up and bite/nip when he is frustrated. The problem is the correction escalates him further


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

jcb said:


> Then today it was sunny out and he had about 45 minutes of walking/open field but a truck came by triggering his chasing of vehicles. He ran after the truck along the fence and after the truck left he ran across a long field redirected on me jumping up & nipping at my arm/jacket. It lasted about 30 seconds and he listened to the sit/stop command but had a crazy look in his eyes.
> 
> He didn't have a e collar on but even a correction with that or leash or fighting him off causes him to escalate
> 
> Max can be great 90% of the time but it that unknown switch that goes off.


This is just something I picked up on but, have you tried offering him something to hold in his mouth when he is in the drivey state of mind as it might satisfy his need and may give him an alternative behavior other than jumping up and nipping.

It is not a reinforcement for bad behavior but teaching him an alternative. Don't play with him with the toy, ball what ever, just encourage him to take the object in his mouth.

The reason I'm offering this is because with my own when he was learning that jumping and mouthing or licking or anything that looked like he might use his mouth on others, while I did correct him, he taught himself to look for anything that he could put in his mouth to calm his excitement. I think it is a go to default behavior that satisfies his needs.

There have been other members with drivey dogs who's dogs have defaulted to this behavior. It might help.

To this day, my boy defaults to looking for something to put in his mouth as soon as company comes over. His excitement lasts only a few seconds, just prances with it then he is completely calm. 

I know you have a lot of issues to work through but I don't see the harm that the suggestion could do and may help a little.

Wish you good success with the trainer.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Op I just wanted to add,that my boy is hard and in some instances, a correction just causes conflict. He has forced me to use my noggin and look at his issues from his side of the looking glass. It has help me a lot.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Marking with a click or a properly conditioned word can sometimes change a dog's whole mindset, if they are on the verge of being nasty but make one good choice, however tiny.

OP it might be worth your while to Google clicker training, how to load the clicker, and really give it a good go.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Heartandsoul said:


> This is just something I picked up on but, have you tried offering him something to hold in his mouth when he is in the drivey state of mind as it might satisfy his need and may give him an alternative behavior other than jumping up and nipping.
> 
> It is not a reinforcement for bad behavior but teaching him an alternative. Don't play with him with the toy, ball what ever, just encourage him to take the object in his mouth.
> 
> ...


This is actually how I got my pup to stop mouthing me and giving me love pinches (ouch) when let out of his crate. We renamed his Kong the "Proper Human Greeting Directional Tool Thingy". We watch a lot of Dr. Who.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, how many pups were there in his litter, how long did his (real) mother spend with the litter and how old was he when he left the litter for his first new home?


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

I think it was 7-9 pups & he was 8 weeks old. 

The first day as a puppy here he ran into a thick thorn Bush and would not come out (problem dog from day one)


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Did the trainer agree to work with you dog?


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## jcb (Jan 4, 2018)

Not yet, I emailed the two places that Specialized in GSD but I have not heard back. 

I will give them a call 

He has been a bit better, the key is redirecting his frustration, I don't think it is aggression.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Good for you! Stay on the trainers, and yes call!

The "key" is not redirecting frustration, it's eliminating it! More work with you, more exercise, less crate time...all will help I think. He's such a beautiful dog, and from the videos and your description of him, I feel he could be a really great dog...given the right environment. As Steve suggested before, lead, don't correct. It's an important distinction! Be demanding, but gear things in a positive way...much less compulsion, 
and no confrontations! I applaud you for sticking with him, I think he'll amaze you in the end!

Thank you for the update...I have been thinking about you guys...


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