# New to the site



## EdwardMH (Aug 30, 2011)

Hello all,

I am new here. I am a disabled veteran and was recently suggested that I might benefit from a PTSD / Psychological Service Dog. I have decided on a Shepherd but was wondering what if any difference there is on a Service Dog use between a German Shepherd, King German Shepherd, and a Shiloh Shepherd.

Also is there a website or something to learn how to do Public Access Training if I decide to train the Dog myself.

Thanks

EdwardMH


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

What I would think between those, would be the size difference. The Shiloh and Kings are significantly larger, I feel if you want a SD, you'll want a starard GSD, easier to maneuver in public, fit under tables at a restaurant, and get on a plane if need be. That is just my opinion though! WELCOME, hope you find a whole plethora of knowledge here!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

The size is the major difference between those breeds. Have you checked into Patriot Paws? A friend of mine trains dogs for them and they place dogs with vets free of charge. They're usually labs but have had other breeds such as gsd, Burmese Mtn Dog. If you don't have physical restrictions I would think that any of the breeds you mentioned would be great. Good luck and thank you for serving our country.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Some things to consider on owner training:

Know the Federal and your state's laws -- if you go through a reputable program they will take the time to go over these with you. Owner Trainers have this responsiblity to do themself.
~ Federal Law does not cover SDITs
~ Some states cover owner training and give limited rights, other states do not acknowledge owner training.
~ Some states do not acknowledge PSDs but do other SDs.

If you do not have experience in selecting working candidates/service dog candidates then you really need the help of someone that does. One of the main reasons an owner trained SD does not make it and needs to be washed from training is because it was not a suitable choice. So it is always advisable to let an expert pick the candidate for you.

On the training end:
Training a SD is not the same as training a pet dog.
If someone wants to train their own dog it is best to do so under the guidance of a reputable and experienced SD trainer. Just as with owners, not all trainers can train a SD as their training is more advanced then that of a pet dog.

There are three parts to training a SD:
1) Obedience
2) Public Access
3) Tasks

Owner Trainers should keep very detailed *Training Logs*. 

The average time to train a SD is between 18 and 24 months.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

You may find these helpful for informational use. 

Minimum Standards for Service Dogs. (You can download & print)
http://www.deltasociety.org/Document.Doc?id=373

Public Access Test (PAT) by Assistance Dogs International, Inc.
This test must be given by an approved evaluator.
Public Access Test - Assistance Dogs International


In training, a PSD must meet the same standards as any other type of SD.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

I am not one of the experts in this field but I noticed in your post that you were talking about a PTSD/Psychological dog. There is a large amount if misleading information about the definition of a service dog among health care professionals that do not regularly work with service dogs. An psychological/emotional support dog is not the same as a service dog so be sure to check to see which type of dog you need.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I heard that the Shiloh Shepherd and the King Shepherd are more laid back like couch potatoes. I dont know how true that is so hopefully someone with more experience will be able to give you an idea of their temperment and energy.

Good luck to you and thank you for your service!


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

ILGHAUS said:


> Some things to consider on owner training:
> 
> Know the Federal and your state's laws -- if you go through a reputable program they will take the time to go over these with you. Owner Trainers have this responsiblity to do themself.
> ~ Federal Law does not cover SDITs
> ...


One thing I would like to add on training any service dog especially a GSD is that they need to be highly socialized and that doesn't mean just to people but environmental situations. . There are many pieces of the puzzle to a service dog/PSTD. It is not black and white there is a lot of gray matter in between. I have learned that over the last year an a half of puppy raising for a service dog agency. Whatever you chose to do research all your options, find out what different organizations can do for you. The first year of a service dogs life is mainly high socialization which means the dogs is exposed to many different people, situations, environmental and more along with installing basic obedience skills. All dogs mature at a different rate so what 1 dog may be able to do in 12 months it may take another dog 15 months. 

A good point was made on emotional support dogs vs PSD dogs. 

Everyone is different some people chose to raise and train their own SD while others find it way too stressful to do this on top of everything and that is OK. You have to chose what works best for you.


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## EdwardMH (Aug 30, 2011)

kiwilrdg said:


> An psychological/emotional support dog is not the same as a service dog so be sure to check to see which type of dog you need.


I suffer from PTSD, MDD, Anxiety Nightmares, Some sleep walking. Have trouble leaving the house with out taking medications but the medications tend to make me lose balance. Would a emotional support dog be better than a Service Dog? if so I will tell my Therapist to change her decision. this is all new to me.

EdwardMH


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Would a emotional support dog be better than a Service Dog?


No. In many states, emotional support dogs do not have access rights. A service dog handler has access rights with a service dog that is task trained to mitigate the specific disability of its handler.

Emotional support dogs are not trained to aid their handler in any way.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

An Emotional Support Animal (Dog) is a pet and as such gives the benefit of being a loving companion. An ESA/D is for an individual with a disabling mental illness and their doctor agrees that such an animal would be of great benefit to their patient. 

The only reason to having an Emotional Support Dog over a *pet* is the ability to have an animal in no-pets housing or to travel with the animal in the cabin of an aircraft.

If you own your home and never fly then you would have no reason to have your dog's status changed from companion/pet to an ESD. The change in title does not affect the benefits of having a pet. It only allows someone to have an animal companion for its theraputic powers who otherwise would not be allowed to have a pet in their home or close at hand while traveling.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

What do you need your dog to do for you?

As was previously pointed out, an Emotional Support Dog (ESD) and a Service Dog (SD) are two different things:

An ESD is a pet who provides comfort and companionship. A lot of the time, these are recommended by doctors who feel that their patients would benefit from having the pet in their lives because it helps the patient - for example, someone who may otherwise stay shut up in his home would get out to walk the dog.

An SD is a dog who is trained to do specific tasks (on command) for the disabled handler, such as stand to act as a brace, help a person balance, fetch medication, turn on lights, etc. SDs are trained to do things specific to their handler's needs.

Handlers with SDs have the right to bring them into public places, such as restaurants and stores, because SDs are considered medical equipment just like a cane or a wheelchair would be. Handlers with ESAs are not allowed to bring them into public places - their only exception is in housing and travel, and for housing, you'd need your doctor's written recommendation and apply for an exemption to the pet policy with your landlord, you can't just bring the dog home and say, "But it's an ESA!"

AS far as the original question goes ... it depends on what you are looking for in a dog. The average German Shepherd is between 24 and 26 inches - some taller and some smaller - at the withers. King Shepherds and Shiloh Shepherd are quite a bit larger. My friend's Shiloh is 30" at the withers and 102 lbs ...

Size is not always a good thing. However, if you're a tall / large individual and your dog will be doing any brace work for you, it may be needed.

As far as temperament and health goes in the three breeds ... that depends on the quality of the breeder. There is good and bad in all three.


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## EdwardMH (Aug 30, 2011)

Psychiatric Service Dog Society

Go Down to PSD assistance for Veterans with PTSD is a list of tasks a Service dog is trained to assist with. I have need of several of these


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Edward - yes, I am aware that there are many tasks that a PSD (Psychiatric Service Dog) _can_ be trained to do for a person. 

However, what PSDs are actually trained to assist with are the tasks that the handler specifically needs. PSDs are not generally trained a "laundry list" of commands, they're trained for the specific needs of the specific individuals. If you needed, for example, the dog to wake you up and turn on the light, but also to act as a brace to help you balance, then the dog would be trained ONLY to do those three things you need him to do. He wouldn't be trained to open doors because you probably won't need that task to be done by the dog. On the other hand, a person in a wheelchair would probably need the dog to open a door and pick up objects from the floor, but would not need some of the tasks you need.

The size of the breed would not make a difference if you just needed the dog to wake you up or alert you that you need to take your medication, but it would make a difference if the dog needed to help you balance, go up stairs, etc. So the question what you need your dog to do is pretty relevant in choosing the breed of dog when you're thinking about three breeds of varying sizes.

Also, please note that some of the tasks listed on that website are not actually tasks. A task is defined as something that the dog is trained to do on command or something the dog is trained to respond to in a specific way. For example, turning on the light is a task (done on cue). Waking you if you have a nightmare is a task (response to a specific situation). "Accompanying you outside the home" is not a task. "Canine-facilitated interpersonal interaction" is also not a task... it's basically people talking to you because you have a dog (or you talking to people because they ask you about the dog).

Sometimes, there's a fine line between tasks and not-tasks and between Service Dogs and ESD's, which is why it's very important that people understand the difference and evaluate what they need the dog to do, before ever thinking about what breed would be best suited for the purpose or where to start training.

Also note that not all of the articles at the bottom of that page are about Service Dogs, at least one is about Therapy Dogs, which are an entirely different category altogether and really don't have anything to do with the subject of Service Dogs OR ESDs. (They're pets that visit with people OTHER than their handler ... like a hospitals.)


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Also, please note that some of the tasks listed on that website are not actually tasks.


:thumbup:


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## EdwardMH (Aug 30, 2011)

I understand this. All I know is my VA Therapist after 4 years said she thought I could be helped by a Service Dog not a Emotional Support Dog or Therapy Dog to mitigate my PTSD issues. (She is on a VA study board at the Columbia VA researching how Service Dogs can help veterans with the psychological handicaps.) I do not know how to explain it with out telling strangers here what my Medical issues are and to me it is private and uncomfortable. that's the only reason I was seeking information on SD's I did not realize that to get information I would need to divulge my medical issues. So since I am not comfortable doing that I will also assume I am not ready for a SD and stop posting. I do thank you all for what help you tried to give me though.

EdwardMH


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

No you do not need to tell anyone what your medical condition is but you are the one who brought it up. Kiwilrdg did not ask you to tell us about your disability but only suggested you make sure that you knew what the difference in the types of dogs and verify which would be best for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *kiwilrdg*  
_An psychological/emotional support dog is not the same as a service dog so be sure to check to see which type of dog you need._

I suffer from PTSD, MDD, Anxiety Nightmares, Some sleep walking. Have trouble leaving the house with out taking medications but the medications tend to make me lose balance. Would a emotional support dog be better than a Service Dog? if so I will tell my Therapist to change her decision. this is all new to me.


When you asked "Would a emotional support dog be better than a Service Dog? ... this is all new to me." we then tried to explain what the difference was. Not for you to tell us but so you would be aware in order to make the best decision for yourself.

Along with that same train of thought, AbbyK9 asked you a question (to ask yourself - not to answer her) and then she gave you more info to help you come up with your own answer.



> "What do you need your dog to do for you?
> 
> As was previously pointed out, an Emotional Support Dog (ESD) and a Service Dog (SD) are two different things:


I think you just misunderstood the style of writing. Questions for you to think about, not come back to report to us. AbbyK9 also brought it back to your original post that you need to know what you want a dog to do for you before deciding on a particular breed. She gave examples to help you understand.

I also tried to give you some basic info on owner training since you said you were thinking about training a dog for yourself. Everyone was just trying to get you going in the right direction. So anyway, please don't stop posting your questions.

If you say for instance that you need a larger laid back dog vrs. a more agile active dog then someone may be able to give you their knowledge on how these various breeds would generally compare.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

I saw a statement that might be the key to the ESD/SD question, as well as an important factor in choosing a breed.



> but the medications tend to make me lose balance.


If the dog is needed to provide stable support to keep you from falling you have found one of the tasks that the dog will need to be trained for. You also found an important thing to look for in the dog. You will need to take care that the dog will be able to hold weight and not have bad joints.

As everyone said, it is none of our business why you need the dog. I just wanted to be sure you looked into the real laws rather than just the urban legends about the ADA. There will be people who do not understand the laws (both limitations and rights) so you will need to know the law for them (even though it is not fair, it is reality).


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## EdwardMH (Aug 30, 2011)

Please forgive my misunderstanding. Had not slept and misunderstood what I was reading. You all have been most helpful. Actualy part of the reason I was asking about the 3 types of Shepherds was to see if any would be better for balance support. I should have asked that specifically but at the time of original post was looking for just general information. Then after I narrowed down type of Shepherd I planned to ask specific questions.

EdwardMH


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

Everyone was just warning you of pitfalls everywhere else and you were also guarding against pitfalls on this board. Believe me, this has not been a misunderstanding. It is a good thing that you are doing more in-depth research to learn the truth about SDs. 

This can be a hot-button topic so if folks sound a bit stern it is just to discourage the internet scam service dog paperwork. We have all seen lots of people who just want to take their pets everywhere and call their dog a SD.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

EdwardMH said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am new here. I am a disabled veteran and was recently suggested that I might benefit from a PTSD / Psychological Service Dog. I have decided on a Shepherd but was wondering what if any difference there is on a Service Dog use between a German Shepherd, King German Shepherd, and a Shiloh Shepherd.
> 
> EdwardMH


I would NOT get a dog any bigger than a GSD is supposed to be  It really is more difficult to get them in the car (fit them in the car  ) take them around, carry them if they are injured (ACK!!!) , comb them, wash them..................... 

Trust me, a 'regular' GSD is big enough!

I've heard that there are a bunch of prison programs that are doing wonders with dogs for veterans. Nice because some of these dogs were removed from shelters to have a new and better life, and that's exactly what happens to the people who end up with them!


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## EdwardMH (Aug 30, 2011)

*Reputable Breeders/Trainers*

How do you know which Breeders/Trainers are good? What do you look for or ask them?

I am supposed to met a local breeder/Service Dog trainer here near Springfield, Mo. Called Harken Kennels through Our House Foundation


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Hi Edward, I have 2 Shilohs & 1 White Shepherd, they are the picture for my avitar. My 2 Shilohs are about 115lbs each. It is not true that all are laid back. My 9 yr old male is very active, all he wants to do is play. Size does matter, specially when it comes to meds everything is super sized. The older I get the more I love my little 70lb short haired munchin. Not that I don't love my other dogs.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

For mobility you need a very sturdy well-put together dog. The earliest that you could hope to use a GSD would be after they were x-rayed at 24 months. 

You will need a dog with a strong work ethic and safe to be used in the public. 

I would not even consider using a dog for mobility/balance unless it was certified for both Elbow Dysplasia and Hip Dysplasia. (Hips & Elbows should be either OFA or PennHIP Certified.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
What is PennHIP?

Also have the dog's back X-rayed and approved for this type of work.
Cardiac, Thyroid, Eyes

These health checks are all more in-depth than just those done during a routine health check at the vet's. 

*A word of caution here* - PSDs for vets are the new gravy train for trainers and organizations. They are springing up all over. Trainers who have only worked with pets are now claiming to train SDs. Posting a statement that "I have trained dogs for 30 years" can sound impressive until you verify and find out that they have only trained dogs to sit, down, walk nicely on a leash, and come when called. There is a lot more to training a SD. If you go with a trainer look for someone with experience in that field. A good trainer has gone through training under other good trainers. 

Do not base your choice of dog on a flashy website. Do your research. 

A SD will be your partner for years. Do your homework and verify what you are told.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

If you go with a Program vrs. Owner Trained:

- Are they a member of Assistance Dog International (ADI)? Some other organization?
http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/
- If they are a 501(c)(3) do they have copies of their corporate paperwork for you to see. _(By law they must make available on request a copy of their application to the IRS and their documentation that was submitted along with their application. You must be able to view their past 3 years of tax forms.)_ You can go on-line and verify they are currently in good standing with the IRS. Also verify they are in compliance with the State where they are registered as a non-profit. 
- Check their rating with the BBB.
- You can check with the State Attorney's Office (the state in which they are located) to see if there have been any complaints or legal proceedings brought against them.
- How long have they been training the type of SD that you need?
- Who does the actual training of the dog? Are they fully trained when turned over to the new handler or only on basics and handler then needs to complete the training?
- How many dogs have they trained and what percentage remain active 1 yr after placement? 3 yrs / 5 yrs after placement?
- How much is charged for the dog? If new handler pays does the organization help with fundraising?
- Who has ownership of the dog after placement? Some organizations retain ownership and may take the dog back under certain circumstances while others give full ownership over to the new handler.
- Are you able to see a copy of the contract before signing and have time to have it reviewed by your legal counsel if you so wish? Are all of the tasks that you need listed on the contract? What is the health guarantee? Does this guarantee cover any health related costs? If so for how long?
- Are you able to visit the facility and speak with staff? Are you able to speak with client's using their dogs? 
- Does the organization do any type of follow-up? Will they help you if the dog needs any type of retraining? Do they have someone to contact for basic questions? 

Remember, everything must be written down. Verbal assurances do not legally count. 

Why do I stress research and verify? Because I hear very often from people paying huge sums of money, investing their emotions and time, and relying on what they are told from individual trainers and organizations.


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## EdwardMH (Aug 30, 2011)

Ilghaus your a wealth of help and information. Thank you. I just got a call my interview is tomorrow than if that goes well then Saturday I will go out to meet the trainer / breeder. Your answers on what to check for from trainer viewpoint was great. Now She breeds her own Shepherds for training. How do I tell if the breed is good, stable healthy ect. And not a puppy mill or something?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Now She breeds her own Shepherds for training. How do I tell if the breed is good, stable healthy ect.


Ask to see the parent's pedigrees - maybe you can get copies if not online / at the minimum ask for registered name of both parents.
You can look the parents up on the OFA website - I gave you the link in a previous post - and see if the parents are certified with their hips and elbows. 

You can also post the parents info on the breeder section of this forum and ask if anyone knows anything about them or their lines. 

Talk to the breeder and get as much info as you can about her dogs. Ask why she bred this particular male and female. Was it a repeat breeding? If so ask about previous pups. 

Does the breeder have a website? (Not always the mark of a good breeder but a place to look for info.)
Does the breeder show or title her dogs? 
How long has she bred dogs? 
What type of health checks were done on the parents? 
Ask if the mom and pups are kept in the house or are kennel dogs? 
Ask to be taken around the facility and look at all of the dogs for cleanliness. 
How many dogs does the breeder own?
How many litters does she have in a year?
What type of health guarantee does she offer?
What type of handling does she do with the pups?
For an example of some of the above*:
(Wildhaus Kennels Raising Working German Shepherd Puppies)

* There are other good breeders who are members here but the above has a lot of good info on their website to use as an example of the info on my list.


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