# I think many of you may be right about Kira's aggression tendency.



## Anthony8858

I've been keeping a close eye on my Kira. She's been with all of us for almost a year, and I've come here for every little thing, and have gotten great answers.


I think I may not be reading this correctly, and may warrant a discussion.
Her actions are escalating.

A few days ago, I shrugged off Kira going bonkers at a Chihuahua that showed up at my house unattended. That may have been more a red flag than I realized.
I may have a developing issue that needs attention.

Today, I observed a few new bouts of "what may appear as aggression". I'm not sure what's she's doing. She's charging forward, with a loud bark, and stopping at the "victim", and doing nothing at that point, but a sniff and walk away.

1) My daughter's 18 yr old male friend comes up from the basement. Kira didn't know he was the house. As soon as she saw him, she barked, tail up and curled, and barked as she moved towards him. He's a dog owner, so he stood still. She stopped barking, sniffed and walked away.

2) Kira was sitting inside my home, laying on an ottoman that overlooks the front of my house. All was quiet. My 13 yr old daughter had a male friend with her in front of my house. I was also outside with my daughter and her friend. My daughter asked for a ride to the mall.
As soon as the male friend approached my truck, and opened the door to enter, Kira started going bonkers at the window.

3) 9pm tonight. I take my 8 yr old and 13 yr for ice cream. Kira comes with us.Upon returning, I pull into my driveway, and see my 18 yr old daughter at the top of my steps with a male friend. Kira literally chased him in the house. Barking and approaching. Knowing that Kira is not known to be aggressive, and witnessing today's behavior, I commanded a stop, and down. She obeyed, and just dropped. The boy walked past her, and nothing happened.

What's going on?


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## carmspack

Anthony , how do you want your dog? You know that she has fear aggression and have been working on it for more than half the time that you have had her .
When I saw this http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/188527-kira-attacks.html I shook my head .

You can not fool around with this kind of stuff , making bite or harrassing someone rewarding for the dog one moment , and then be worried when she does the same thing later on , especially for a dog who has issues - black and white .


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## Mrs.K

What I'd like to see are some videos about how she truly reacts and not just what you see and think she does. I really want to see what she is doing. Chi on your property is an intruder. Intruders are not welcome. Not really surprising... 

Stranger in the house without the dog knowing, that is an intruder.

Barking because you guys hop into the car to drive away could be out of frustration and she's not the only dog that does it. 

There are other explanations but we have got to see it for ourselves to truly judge and help you. 

Explanations are nice and well but you are so worried about aggression that you might read more into it than there is. Maybe you read her correctly, maybe you don't. The only way to really know is to see an actual video or the dog for ourselves.


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## msvette2u

Carms is right. 
I didn't comment in that thread, because it's not cute, funny or...anything except vastly confusing to the dog.
You ought to know better 

We had a GSD that did the bark - would go right up to visitors and put his nose by their arm. He'd just sit there a moment, then walk off. 
He never bit anyone (except one person who provoked him, then it was just a nip as a warning-the guy had teased our dog for months and then that day decided to stick his arm in the fence!) but it was like he was daring them to "mess up". 
When he saw they meant no harm he'd relax and be their bud.

But it took a lot of working with him to respect us - and when I invite someone in my home, my dog better not decide they are not welcome! 
And that's how we maintained that dog until he passed away. I trusted him implicitly with everyone.


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## Lucy Dog

She's barking at easy targets. Small dogs and innocent little kids. Like everyone's saying, and I'm in total agreement, this is not acceptable behavior. 

You've known your dogs has nerve issues for some time now. Socialization isn't the issue... we know you put the effort in and did everything you could. Kira is who she is. Beautiful dog, but she is obviously not a confident one. And now she's maturing into her adult mindset and out of being a puppy.

You're really going to have to monitor her at all times for now on. Fearful dogs are often nippers. They are a risk to bite and Kira's showing the warning signs. You have to always know where she is at all times. No open doors and no access to innocent kids, people, or dogs. It's probably going to be a life long thing. It's a good thing you're a responsible and diligent owner.


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## TaZoR

Sounds like she is overly protective to me. I had 2 sheps, not at the same time, but both were not trusted by me to let them near anyone. It happens a lot. Working in a lg vet hosp for 25+ yrs. I was always careful reaching towards the owners to take a leash. I'm no trainer, I worked with thousands of dogs following orders, treating them but I was so busy..I would go home and relax, not train..lol. I know how to read a dog very well. I think I know when a dog will bite before the dog does. I know when they are sick, not themselves, slightly lame, fearful, aggressive..etc

My dogs, although they were excellent with the family and kids, were timebombs of liability. I shied from walking them because although I can control my dog, I can't control someones kid bolting over to him. I could let him out of a room only after someone sat down.

I think your dog is overprotective and maybe somewhat cage aggressive..aggressive if she feels trapped against going after something.

Anyway..my 2¢


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## Lucy Dog

Jen... what you're describing is not being overprotective. When there's no real threat, what's the dog protecting? 

What you described is poor nerve and possibly resource guarding depending on the situation.

A protective dog with good nerve should act accordingly. Think before they react. Assess the situation. Act only on real threats.


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## carmspack

the word overly is key -- "protective" before there is need to be , without actual threat , pre-emptive , I'll get them before they get me cuz the world is a dangerous place.
Not confident.
Test of situation would be if the subject of the "aggression" turned and responded in a forward aggressive manner - just like the old fashioned courage test (which was not prey) -- lots of dogs changed their mind and revealed their internal state of fear .

Kira would run , or run circles just outside of range , dart in nip, come from behind .

Socialization will not change things, only improve things to a point where you have that moment where you can control . You read the animal , and the animal , through the socialization has some trust of you , otherwise it would be panic and out of control .
Thresholds for excitement are low .


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## Anthony8858

carmspack said:


> Anthony , how do you want your dog? You know that she has fear aggression and have been working on it for more than half the time that you have had her .
> *When I saw this http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/188527-kira-attacks.html I shook my head .
> *
> You can not fool around with this kind of stuff , making bite or harrassing someone rewarding for the dog one moment , and then be worried when she does the same thing later on , especially for a dog who has issues - black and white .


Carmen, the video was tongue in cheek humor,and Kira was not ordered to attack. SHe was bothering my wife. Every time my wife started doing her step dance, Kira would try to stop her.
They where playing.
She was only about 8 months, and coming out of her land shark phase.


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## Anthony8858

msvette2u said:


> Carms is right.
> *I didn't comment in that thread, because it's not cute, funny or...anything except vastly confusing to the dog.
> *You ought to know better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We had a GSD that did the bark - would go right up to visitors and put his nose by their arm. He'd just sit there a moment, then walk off.
> He never bit anyone (except one person who provoked him, then it was just a nip as a warning-the guy had teased our dog for months and then that day decided to stick his arm in the fence!) but it was like he was daring them to "mess up".
> When he saw they meant no harm he'd relax and be their bud.
> 
> But it took a lot of working with him to respect us - and when I invite someone in my home, my dog better not decide they are not welcome!
> And that's how we maintained that dog until he passed away. I trusted him implicitly with everyone.


Kinda surprised you feel this way. I thought it was clear that we were just having some family fun, and Kira wasn't actually attacking anyone.


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## Anthony8858

I'm going to stage a few scenarios and video them. It might give a clearer description of her actions.
I don't get the impression that she's being "mean" or wanting to bite. However, I am raising the subject to see where it could potentially go.

Carmen, and some others already knew that she had some "weak nerve" issues. She was always timid, and the type of pup that stayed near me, but never had a problem with people.
If i'm outside with her, she's completely different. She's calm, great on her leash, people could walk up and greet.
All of her actions are revolving around her home.

She barks at random people that walk into my home. Albeit a dog or human.
She barked at the young man that entered my vehicle.
She barked at the young man standing in my doorway.


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## Anthony8858

carmspack said:


> *the word overly is key -- "protective" before there is need to be , without actual threat , pre-emptive , I'll get them before they get me cuz the world is a dangerous place.
> Not confident.
> *Test of situation would be if the subject of the "aggression" turned and responded in a forward aggressive manner - just like the old fashioned courage test (which was not prey) -- lots of dogs changed their mind and revealed their internal state of fear .
> 
> Kira would run , or run circles just outside of range , dart in nip, come from behind .
> 
> Socialization will not change things, only improve things to a point where you have that moment where you can control . You read the animal , and the animal , through the socialization has some trust of you , otherwise it would be panic and out of control .
> Thresholds for excitement are low .


Carmen, a lot of what you're seeing and saying seems to be a continuance of what we've discussed in the past. Just in a different form. Interesting.
She's also getting older and reacting differently to her internal state of fear.

I need to correct this. I have an idea where this could go.
I honestly don't know what to do at this point. 

Kira is a cute, calm and very playful. She's the shy little girl that everyone can walk up to.
But deep down inside, there's a different Kira evolving. I see it. I don't see any more hesitance around other dogs. I see confidence in places where she would normally be hesitant to approach. 
I don't see a scared dog. I see a confident dog. Maybe I' wrong. I'll take this further.
However, that doesn't mean that she's not "putting on a good show"


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## ksotto333

"Quotes from the Kira attacks"
My wife was doing her daily routine, and I instructed Kira to harass her 
What I found SO funny, was how Kira just casually walked up to my wife, did what she was told to do,"

In your response to Carms she said she wasn't told to attack...but in your other posts you say she was instructed by you.. it wasn't a true attack but for fun...but the idea is planted..


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## Anthony8858

ksotto333 said:


> "Quotes from the Kira attacks"
> My wife was doing her daily routine, and I instructed Kira to harass her
> What I found SO funny, was how Kira just casually walked up to my wife, did what she was told to do,"
> 
> In your response to Carms she said she wasn't told to attack...but in your other posts you say she was instructed by you.. it wasn't a true attack but for fun...but the idea is planted..


LOL... Are you putting me on trial here? Or are you here to address the thread?

It was a humorous post, intended to get a chuckle out of fellow members. 
Yes, I was laughing, and said the Kira "go nip at mommy's shoe", and she coincidentally did it. That was the funny part. 
Is she attack trained in the combat shoe biting? NO
Do I take her to local aerobic classes, and have her attack exercising moms on steps? NO

IT WAS A DARN JOKE!!!!
Some of you people act as if you never played with your dogs.

Rather than read into what I said (in humor). Why don't you take a good look at the dog's actions. Does she look like she attacked?


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## JakodaCD OA

well Anthony I'll tell you, the video with your wife, didn't bother me one bit I saw it as Kira fooling around with your wife, how many dogs here have done just that? Quite a few I imagine.

My 2cents for what it's worth, she is what she is. I also would like to see a video of exactly what she's doing but again, what can ya do? Set up some stranger to get a reaction out of her? Not

My girl can be somewhat reactive off property, however, if a stranger was getting into my car in my driveway with me, the only way she's going bonkers is if she is PO'd at me for not taking her,,maybe so with Kira? Don't know.

Mine would probably also have a barking hissy if they turned a corner in myhouse and a strange dog was standing there, but a "knock it off" would have diffused it. I don't think it's unnormal for a dog to react to a strange dog walking in their front door if they are surprised by it.

Can't help you with charging strange people in the house/property, I have never had a gsd that 'did' that. Curious yes, like "who the heck are you?" confrontational no. 

I can't recall, has she been spayed? If not, could she possibly be going into heat? Sometimes this can trigger weird behaviors, tho I know you've seen other instances as well.

It seems like the 'people' thing, is only happening on your property? 

I don't have an answer for you and won't fathom a guess, but I do agree it's not protection, there is no 'threat' of a person just standing there.

Maybe if your really wanting answers is to find a gsd savvy trainer and have them come to your house and observe..


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## Sunflowers

Wouldn't any GSD, or other breed, for that matter, bark if he suddenly found a Chi in his house? 
In every incident you described, she barked but then was fine. Didn't attack. Wouldn't a truly aggressive dog just run on over and lunge and bite?


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## NancyJ

I think she is saying

THESE BOY THINGS ARE NOTHING BUT TROUBLE

Good judgement.

Just joking

I raised two daughters myself. If I had a lot more to ad I would but I am no expert in dealing with this but it sounds like she is a little weak nerved from all that you have said and, because of her temperament, I would be most inclined to work scenarios in the house so she thinks any and all intruders are her friends and bring her good things.

No, that is not what you typically want to see is a confident GSD acting like a happy squirmy golden retriever but it may take some of the internal conflict away from her and boost her confidence.


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## JakodaCD OA

Nancy good post, and now that you mention the boy thing, I was chuckling reading where his 18 yr old's male friend flew in the house ,,ok maybe not funny for him, but I could just picture that


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## Lilie

Anthony - do you think Kira might be picking up on some hidden emotions from you? I am number 3 daughter out of 4 girls. We drove my father bonkers with our male friends. 

Add in a pinch of new confidence and you might find your girl finally finding herself.


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## bocron

Anthony8858 said:


> I don't see a scared dog. I see a confident dog. Maybe I' wrong. I'll take this further.
> However, that doesn't mean that she's not "putting on a good show"


Absolutely everything you've described about Kira is the exact opposite of confident. The flight forward at the boy in the house is a prime example. Run up menacingly and try to run him off, classic fear response. Especially if the boy was not being visibly threatening. 
We currently have 8 GSDs and dozens of client GSDs that we work with every week. Generally the owners tell us stories similar to yours and mistakenly believe they have a confident dog. We have 2 males that we like to get out to show them a truly confident dog. One is 10 years old and the other is 3 years old. Both are oblivious to the other people or dogs in the vicinity unless their activity warrants attention. The dead giveaway is how the other dogs treat these 2 guys. The other dogs bow and scrape to these guys and they accept the attention without getting nasty or bossy. They will turn their back on another dog or person with confidence that no one will mess with them much less challenge them. Neither of them ever has to display how big and bad they can be. Kind of like Mr. Miyagi in The Karate Kid, he gave off the aura of a centered and content person who just enjoyed working on his Bonsai, but you knew you didn't want to cross him if it came down to it.


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## ksotto333

Anthony8858 said:


> LOL... Are you putting me on trial here? Or are you here to address the thread?
> 
> It was a humorous post, intended to get a chuckle out of fellow members.
> Yes, I was laughing, and said the Kira "go nip at mommy's shoe", and she coincidentally did it. That was the funny part.
> Is she attack trained in the combat shoe biting? NO
> Do I take her to local aerobic classes, and have her attack exercising moms on steps? NO
> 
> IT WAS A DARN JOKE!!!!
> Some of you people act as if you never played with your dogs.
> 
> Rather than read into what I said (in humor). Why don't you take a good look at the dog's actions. Does she look like she attacked?


I knew she didn't attack, and that it was in fun..my only point was to Carmspack's post you said she did it on her own..other posts then say differently..we play a lot, chase, tag, fetch, hide and seek, Tessa can head a soccer ball back to us....we've just never even in joking had her go after anyone.


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## onyx'girl

Lucy Dog said:


> Jen... what you're describing is not being overprotective. When there's no real threat, what's the dog protecting?
> 
> What you described is poor nerve and possibly resource guarding depending on the situation.
> 
> A protective dog with good nerve should act accordingly. *Think before they react. Assess the situation. Act only on real threats.*


Exactly. I have two dogs that don't have stable nerves and one who does, big difference in the way they react.


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## Anthony8858

JakodaCD OA said:


> well Anthony I'll tell you, the video with your wife, didn't bother me one bit I saw it as Kira fooling around with your wife, how many dogs here have done just that? Quite a few I imagine.
> 
> Nothing more than a funny moment, enjoying our puppy at the time.
> 
> My 2cents for what it's worth, she is what she is. I also would like to see a video of exactly what she's doing but again, what can ya do? Set up some stranger to get a reaction out of her? Not
> 
> When I know that someone's coming over, I'll set up a camera to attemt to catch her in action
> 
> My girl can be somewhat reactive off property, however, if a stranger was getting into my car in my driveway with me, the only way she's going bonkers is if she is PO'd at me for not taking her,,maybe so with Kira? Don't know.
> 
> Mine would probably also have a barking hissy if they turned a corner in myhouse and a strange dog was standing there, but a "knock it off" would have diffused it. I don't think it's unnormal for a dog to react to a strange dog walking in their front door if they are surprised by it.
> 
> Can't help you with charging strange people in the house/property, I have never had a gsd that 'did' that. Curious yes, like "who the heck are you?" confrontational no.
> 
> I can't recall, has she been spayed? If not, could she possibly be going into heat? Sometimes this can trigger weird behaviors, tho I know you've seen other instances as well.
> 
> Yes, had her spayed 2 months ago.
> 
> It seems like the 'people' thing, is only happening on your property?
> 
> Yes, only on our property. She mingles with anyone, anywhere, otherwise.
> 
> I don't have an answer for you and won't fathom a guess, but I do agree it's not protection, there is no 'threat' of a person just standing there.
> 
> I think she got this from Coconut (our Maltese). She barks at anything that moves, and I noticed that sometime she'll look at Coconut, and wait for her to bark, and visa versa.
> 
> Maybe if your really wanting answers is to find a gsd savvy trainer and have them come to your house and observe..





jocoyn said:


> I think she is saying
> 
> THESE BOY THINGS ARE NOTHING BUT TROUBLE
> 
> Good judgement.
> 
> Just joking
> 
> I raised two daughters myself. If I had a lot more to ad I would but I am no expert in dealing with this but it sounds like she is a little weak nerved from all that you have said and, because of her temperament, I would be most inclined to work scenarios in the house so she thinks any and all intruders are her friends and bring her good things.
> 
> No, that is not what you typically want to see is a confident GSD acting like a happy squirmy golden retriever but it may take some of the internal conflict away from her and boost her confidence.


*


Lilie said:



Anthony - do you think Kira might be picking up on some hidden emotions from you? I am number 3 daughter out of 4 girls. We drove my father bonkers with our male friends.

Click to expand...

*


Lilie said:


> Add in a pinch of new confidence and you might find your girl finally finding herself.


No, the boys are school acquaintances, and very good boys. They bring fun and laughter to my home, and the kids all have a nice time. They play video games, or basketball. They eat dinner with us, and get rides to and from the local mall. They're good kids, and have my approval. They're into school work, and half of them will grow up to be doctors.

As far as Kira's confidence goes... I think there may be some truth to that. She's going to be 14 months soon, and I guess it's expected that she stop acting like a shy puppy sooner or later.
I'm seeing her act the way I describe ONLY in my home.

My Mother in law walked in last night. We were expecting her, so the front door was unlocked. She walked right in. Kira heard the door, JUMPED up from her mat, gave a quick bark, saw it was her, and went back to her mat.
When my MIL made it to the kitchen, Kira walked over to her, wagging tail, got herself petted, and went back to her mat.


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## ponyfarm

Just my two bits..but I think it would be odd if a stranger was in our house, suprised the puppy and the he did NOT bark. My pup will bark once if surprised by someone and then waggy tail right up to say hello. I feel like german shepherds are territorial and do tend to alert. 

Maybe , just keep inviting people over and let her get used to people coming and going.


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## Anthony8858

onyx'girl said:


> Exactly. I have two dogs that don't have stable nerves and one who does, big difference in the way they react.


Can you describe HOW they're different?

I do believe that kira does NOT have stable nerves. Even if, in the eyes of an average owner, she would come off as a well trained, confident GSD.

She gets spooked in my home. I don't doubt that. But why bark when someone went near my truck?
Was she jealous? She ALWAYS goes for rides in my truck.


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## Anthony8858

*


ponyfarm said:



Just my two bits..but I think it would be odd if a stranger was in our house, suprised the puppy and the he did NOT bark. My pup will bark once if surprised by someone and then waggy tail right up to say hello. I feel like german shepherds are territorial and do tend to alert.

Click to expand...

*


ponyfarm said:


> Maybe , just keep inviting people over and let her get used to people coming and going.


This is exactly what's happening.


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## fuzzybunny

Anthony are there are good trainers/behaviourists in your area that could help you? What worries me is that she's maturing from puppy to adult and you're seeing perhaps her adult personality forming and coming out now. 

My girl Bunny was the sweetest puppy with both dogs and humans but once she hit the 1.5 year mark she started becoming extremely dog aggressive. It was a horrible time because she couldn't be off leash and we had to muzzle her for other dogs' protection. This went on for a year until I found a wonderful trainer who worked with us. She's a different dog now. I always felt like my life could have been so much easier if I had gotten the trainer before her behaviour escalated to the degree it did. Since you're starting to see new behaviours from Kira that you don't like, perhaps now would be a good time to seek some expert advice.

Perhaps you don't need a trainer but you seem concerned so it might help ease your mind. I personally didn't think her barking at the dog appearing in the house was a big deal but the charging and barking at your daughters' friends is a little concerning.


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## martemchik

Mrs.K said:


> Chi on your property is an intruder. Intruders are not welcome. Not really surprising...
> 
> Stranger in the house without the dog knowing, that is an intruder.


These are not intruders, the dog shouldn't be barking and running at people/dogs that are coming in with family. The dog should be able to read what the other people around it are feeling and not overreact to something as normal as someone coming into the house.

I know the over whelming feeling about the dog was that Kira reacted fine and that the neighbor was in the wrong for walking into a house where he thought there was a completely safe dog. What if Kira would've bit and killed the chihuahua? Is that worth ruining a relationship with a neighbor? You really think once the other neighbors would've heard the story they would just go "well he shouldn't have walked into the house like that" or would they go "wow there is a dangerous GSD down the street from us."

Now...reacting like that to people, that are with family is horrible. Great...she calms down once she's in their face and they don't react. What if the person does react? What if that 18 year old wasn't a dog person and did react to a full grown GSD running and barking at him? Would the feeling be, "well the guy needed to walk in and make it a point to introduce himself to Kira before going anywhere with Anthony's daughter." Great...now we have a dog that needs to approve everything that comes in and out of the house.

The thing with the wife...not an issue in my mind. My dog will jump on me and bite my arms when I'm hugging my GF. He thinks he's protecting her (and although she's his mom he might be trying to battle me for her) but I can make him down and stop at any moment.

What you need to do is figure out how to change her behavior when she's meeting people. I don't care what people say about GSDs, it is not acceptable in modern society for your GSD to bark and face up anyone that enters your home. It is seriously one step away from your dog making a bad decision which although might not cost your dog its life depending on the person on the other side of the bite (family, friends), it will still give your dog a reputation around the neighborhood that no one wants.

There is a difference between a dog barking once, and a dog running and barking straight at the new person. That is not an acceptable way of greeting anyone, no matter if its at home or out and about.


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## onyx'girl

> Can you describe HOW they're different?
> 
> I do believe that kira does NOT have stable nerves. Even if, in the eyes of an average owner, she would come off as a well trained, confident GSD.
> 
> She gets spooked in my home. I don't doubt that. But why bark when someone went near my truck?
> Was she jealous? She ALWAYS goes for rides in my truck.


Onyx and Kacie would appear to be confident if you didn't know better. They bark and react without looking to me or other family for direction....try to take the situations in their own hands. 
Karlo on the other hand will observe and seldom barks, and defers to us first. 
We had a friend come over and he was in the back yard w/ us. Kacie randomly ran up and bit him in the butt(luckily got his wallet instead of skin) We did have a severe thunderstorm with heavy damage to our yard that day, and I think Kacie was pretty traumatized by it all. Still no excuse to bite our friend. It surprised us all that she did that.
I have to be very diligent with the females when ever people come over, or put them up. Karlo can be around anyone who comes over~ no problem.
And really, there is no desensitizing by having people come and go w/ my adult dogs, that can be overwhelming to have their home constantly 'invaded'....better to just contain them if necessary to keep everyone safe.


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## cliffson1

Sunflowers, I really like your post....I see it the same way. Her behavior seems no different to me than many many toy breed dogs I have seen over the years. When they first come into contact with someone new they rush forward barking, and then usually walk away if you stand there or go back to starting point. Maybe giving another bark, maybe not. If your dog was aggressive you have she has had plenty of opportunities to be truly aggressive. She is a GS,(which is aloof by standard), she has less than optimum nerves,(which makes her reactive), but overall a nice dog. I think the main problem is your expectations, she is not going to be the type of dog in certain situations that a dog with better nerve would be. Dogs like Kira have to be managed in certain situations, otherwise they are fine. They can't be compared to other GS, some things can't be fixed when distractions or new elements are introduced. Accept her for what she is and don't over analyze her behaviors, unless she does something irrational. Right now what you are describing makes plenty sense considering the circumstances.jmo


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## Anthony8858

fuzzybunny said:


> Anthony are there are good trainers/behaviourists in your area that could help you? *What worries me is that she's maturing from puppy to adult and you're seeing perhaps her adult personality forming and coming out now. *
> 
> *And THIS is why I started the thread. I suspect something is NOT right. I'm NOT condoning her behavior, and I do feel that something is developing in her behavior, that WILL NOT have a happy ending.
> *
> 
> My girl Bunny was the sweetest puppy with both dogs and humans but once she hit the 1.5 year mark she started becoming extremely dog aggressive. It was a horrible time because she couldn't be off leash and we had to muzzle her for other dogs' protection. This went on for a year until I found a wonderful trainer who worked with us. She's a different dog now. I always felt like my life could have been so much easier if I had gotten the trainer before her behaviour escalated to the degree it did. Since you're starting to see new behaviours from Kira that you don't like, perhaps now would be a good time to seek some expert advice.
> 
> Perhaps you don't need a trainer but you seem concerned so it might help ease your mind. I personally didn't think her barking at the dog appearing in the house was a big deal but the charging and barking at your daughters' friends is a little concerning.


The barking at the dog, may not have been a dig deal. OTOH, it was indicative of what might be going through my dog's mind.
The only reason why I shrugged at it, is because she is still young, and she's never seen a dog walk in my home, unattended.
What made me start the thread, is when I realized that I may be witnessing a pattern of this behavior, spilling over to humans too.


----------



## Anthony8858

martemchik said:


> These are not intruders, the dog shouldn't be barking and running at people/dogs that are coming in with family. The dog should be able to read what the other people around it are feeling and not overreact to something as normal as someone coming into the house.
> 
> I know the over whelming feeling about the dog was that Kira reacted fine and that the neighbor was in the wrong for walking into a house where he thought there was a completely safe dog. What if Kira would've bit and killed the chihuahua? Is that worth ruining a relationship with a neighbor? You really think once the other neighbors would've heard the story they would just go "well he shouldn't have walked into the house like that" or would they go "wow there is a dangerous GSD down the street from us."
> 
> Now...reacting like that to people, that are with family is horrible. Great...she calms down once she's in their face and they don't react. What if the person does react? What if that 18 year old wasn't a dog person and did react to a full grown GSD running and barking at him? Would the feeling be, "well the guy needed to walk in and make it a point to introduce himself to Kira before going anywhere with Anthony's daughter." Great...now we have a dog that needs to approve everything that comes in and out of the house.
> 
> The thing with the wife...not an issue in my mind. My dog will jump on me and bite my arms when I'm hugging my GF. He thinks he's protecting her (and although she's his mom he might be trying to battle me for her) but I can make him down and stop at any moment.
> 
> What you need to do is figure out how to change her behavior when she's meeting people. I don't care what people say about GSDs, it is not acceptable in modern society for your GSD to bark and face up anyone that enters your home.* It is seriously one step away from your dog making a bad decision which although might not cost your dog its life depending on the person on the other side of the bite (family, friends), it will still give your dog a reputation around the neighborhood that no one wants.*
> 
> *There is a difference between a dog barking once, and a dog running and barking straight at the new person. That is not an acceptable way of greeting anyone, no matter if its at home or out and about.*




I agree with you 100%


----------



## pets4life

his dog is young we arent there we can't label his dog in black and white, ive seen dogs act like his and even if they are kicked or hit they will come back and nail you good. You cant label a dog until you know for sure. Some lines of gsd seem to act defensive like that early and still grow into nice dogs. Defensive drive stems from fear does it not? Some dogs choose to fight always and not flight when they feel fear.

He says his dog is not scared of people in public. 


do you have a pedigree for your dog you can show us? I am curious? 

you have a family and your dog sounds like the type that can grow up to be very very dangerous when it is an adult to strangers who enter the house unless you start getting real careful.

Dogs arent HUMAN they dont know what an intruder is and what isn't experience teaches them that over time.


----------



## Mrs.K

martemchik said:


> These are not intruders, the dog shouldn't be barking and running at people/dogs that are coming in with family. The dog should be able to read what the other people around it are feeling and not overreact to something as normal as someone coming into the house.
> 
> I know the over whelming feeling about the dog was that Kira reacted fine and that the neighbor was in the wrong for walking into a house where he thought there was a completely safe dog. What if Kira would've bit and killed the chihuahua? Is that worth ruining a relationship with a neighbor? You really think once the other neighbors would've heard the story they would just go "well he shouldn't have walked into the house like that" or would they go "wow there is a dangerous GSD down the street from us."
> 
> Now...reacting like that to people, that are with family is horrible. Great...she calms down once she's in their face and they don't react. What if the person does react? What if that 18 year old wasn't a dog person and did react to a full grown GSD running and barking at him? Would the feeling be, "well the guy needed to walk in and make it a point to introduce himself to Kira before going anywhere with Anthony's daughter." Great...now we have a dog that needs to approve everything that comes in and out of the house.
> 
> The thing with the wife...not an issue in my mind. My dog will jump on me and bite my arms when I'm hugging my GF. He thinks he's protecting her (and although she's his mom he might be trying to battle me for her) but I can make him down and stop at any moment.
> 
> What you need to do is figure out how to change her behavior when she's meeting people. I don't care what people say about GSDs, it is not acceptable in modern society for your GSD to bark and face up anyone that enters your home. It is seriously one step away from your dog making a bad decision which although might not cost your dog its life depending on the person on the other side of the bite (family, friends), it will still give your dog a reputation around the neighborhood that no one wants.
> 
> There is a difference between a dog barking once, and a dog running and barking straight at the new person. That is not an acceptable way of greeting anyone, no matter if its at home or out and about.


I understood that the Chi was intruding. He was off leash, on his own, coming onto the property. Any dog would have reacted the way she did if another dog is coming onto your property. I know that my dogs, all three of them get pissed when the neighbordog is coming over, right in front of the window. But I can also call them off. 

If that dog was lose/stray and Kira barked because of that, there is nothing abnormal about it. 

As for a stranger in the house. I would like to know what exactly happened. Was she surprised by him? Did he stop, stare, tense up? Did he talk to her or just stood, giving her a blank stare, tensing up not saying a word? 

Descriptions are that, descriptions but you have to see where the problem lies with your own eyes. It's like coming onto a forum with doctors saying "Doctor, my belly hurts." 
There is a thousand things that could be wrong. We are giving him an internet diagnosis. 

Yes, everything points to a weak nerved dog but still, to be really sure, you have got to see it with your own eyes because there is a chance that things actually are a bit different than they seem to be.


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## NancyJ

Well but what are you calling a "stranger"? I gathered these boys, the MIL, are all routine visitors to the house and known to the dog.

Because my mother has in home care we have all kinds of people coming and going. Grim always barks when a new person comes to our door but does not charge or hackle or anything just barks then looks at me and shuts up. He ignores anyone who has been over to the house a few times and seems to have a decent memory on that (for example we have one helper who only comes on Sat and Sun) Actually, if anything is 'out of the ordinary' like a stove buzzer or something, he just comes to me and whines and will take me to it. 

I have been told that than an adult, who is not me or my husband, into *our* part of the house (where they are not supposed to be) and we are not there he does bark at them but then calmly approaches them and follows them around until they leave. I have been told there has never been any threatening behavior other than the intial bark.

Of course whether or not he would do anything in the face of a real threat, I can honestly say I do not have a clue......so what IS breed appropriate behavior in that case? What would you look to see Kira doing? I would think if it is a person accepted by the family all is good.


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## Courtney

Anthony, I sometimes stink at trying to explain in word what I want to say

Basically I think you take too much time over analyzing everything Kira does...in return driving yourself bonkers, giving off mixed signals to Kira. IMO you also put her in awkward scenarios. 

Is Kira a hard charger that is going to excel in protection work, no. Is she suitable for breeding, no. BUT BUT she is a lovely girl and seems like a nice dog all around. Enjoy her...stop over analyzing.

That's my two cents!


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## Anthony8858

pets4life said:


> his dog is young we arent there we can't label his dog in black and white, ive seen dogs act like his and even if they are kicked or hit they will come back and nail you good. You cant label a dog until you know for sure. Some lines of gsd seem to act defensive like that early and still grow into nice dogs. Defensive drive stems from fear does it not? Some dogs choose to fight always and not flight when they feel fear.
> 
> He says his dog is not scared of people in public.
> 
> 
> do you have a pedigree for your dog you can show us? I am curious?
> 
> *Here's her pedigree:*
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=737543
> 
> *Enjoy.*
> 
> 
> you have a family and your dog sounds like the type that can grow up to be very very dangerous when it is an adult to strangers who enter the house unless you start getting real careful.
> 
> Valid concern. I agree
> 
> Dogs arent HUMAN they dont know what an intruder is and what isn't experience teaches them that over time.


Agree



Mrs.K said:


> I understood that the Chi was intruding. He was off leash, on his own, coming onto the property. Any dog would have reacted the way she did if another dog is coming onto your property. I know that my dogs, all three of them get pissed when the neighbordog is coming over, right in front of the window. But I can also call them off.
> 
> If that dog was lose/stray and Kira barked because of that, there is nothing abnormal about it.
> 
> As for a stranger in the house. I would like to know what exactly happened. Was she surprised by him? Did he stop, stare, tense up? Did he talk to her or just stood, giving her a blank stare, tensing up not saying a word?
> 
> In EVERY case, I feel that Kira was surprised by the presence of the human. She hears the sounds, investigates, then sees a human standing there.
> The reaction of the human, IMO has been a natural tendency to freeze up.
> I've encouraged the "humans" to put their hand out to allow Kira to smell. When they do that, Kira would sniff, lick their hand, and go back to her mat. Nothing more. No excited greetings, no jumping, nothing.
> 
> 
> Descriptions are that, descriptions but you have to see where the problem lies with your own eyes. It's like coming onto a forum with doctors saying "Doctor, my belly hurts."
> There is a thousand things that could be wrong. We are giving him an internet diagnosis.
> 
> I agree. I will video document her behavior for further evaluation.
> 
> Yes, everything points to a weak nerved dog but still, to be really sure, you have got to see it with your own eyes because there is a *chance that things actually are a bit different than they seem to be.[/QUOTE*]
> 
> Yes, I am a total amateur. I've raised my Kira with the assistance of this website. I have no formal training.
> We both attended obedience school 6 months. She has decent basic obedience skills. I can recall her with confidence. She's great on the leash, and her sit, stay, leave it, etc... are fairly solid.
> I never took it to a higher level, as much as I would have liked to.


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## ponyfarm

Courtney said:


> Anthony, I sometimes stink at trying to explain in word what I want to say
> 
> Basically I think you take too much time over analyzing everything Kira does...in return driving yourself bonkers, giving off mixed signals to Kira. IMO you also put her in awkward scenarios.
> 
> Is Kira a hard charger that is going to excel in protection work, no. Is she suitable for breeding, no. BUT BUT she is a lovely girl and seems like a nice dog all around. Enjoy her...stop over analyzing.
> 
> That's my two cents!


This!


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## Anthony8858

Courtney said:


> Anthony, I sometimes stink at trying to explain in word what I want to say
> 
> Basically I think you take too much time over analyzing everything Kira does...in return driving yourself bonkers, giving off mixed signals to Kira. IMO you also put her in awkward scenarios.
> 
> Is Kira a hard charger that is going to excel in protection work, no. Is she suitable for breeding, no. BUT BUT she is a lovely girl and seems like a nice dog all around. Enjoy her...stop over analyzing.
> 
> That's my two cents!


 
I can easily agree with you. I might be over analyzing a bit.
OTOH, I enjoy having these discussion here on GS.com, and have learned quite a bit about my dog and what life is like for others and their dogs around the world.
I have a genuine interest in dog behavior. Not only my dog, but others as well. I find it fascinating

I can just as well sit back and let Kira be Kira. That's fine.
But it would be so much more rewarding, if I knew that I was able to thwart a potential problem.

My wife had a similar response to me not too long ago. She was miffed at me for not allowing my dog in the dog park. I tried to explain that the actions and body language of the dogs in there, could only lead to a problem. I've studied those dogs there day in and day out. And I've come to the conclusion that no dog is safe in there. It's not a matter of "If", it's a matter of when something will happen.
I bring Kira there to meet a select group of friends. They play, then I leave. Other dogs would enter.
On more than one ocassion, I'd sit outside with my wife, and witness bloodshed shortly after we leave.
It took a long time to convince my wife, that studying dog behavior is huge plus.


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## msvette2u

I didn't see people saying she's aggressive, but rather has fear or nerve issues.



> Some of you people act as if you never played with your dogs.


I play but not send them in to "attack" (even in play) family members.

There's a thing called muscle memory and dogs utilize it too. 
Play biting ought to be discouraged - puppies play bite in groups to learn muscle memory to eventually use, if necessary, on other dogs. 
Dogs in Sch training are doing exactly that - muscle memory exercises.



> Basically I think you take too much time over analyzing everything Kira does...in return driving yourself bonkers, giving off mixed signals to Kira. IMO you also put her in awkward scenarios.


This exactly. She's just a dog, at the end of the day, and you may never figure out why she does this or that. 
Just relax and have her be a family pet, which is what she excels at


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## NancyJ

Anthony8858 said:


> In EVERY case, I feel that Kira was surprised by the presence of the human. She hears the sounds, investigates, then sees a human standing there.


I really do not think so. She knows exactly who is there and if they are friend or stranger before she ever sees them. The sense of smell and discrimination is *that* good.


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## Mrs.K

> In EVERY case, I feel that Kira was surprised by the presence of the human. She hears the sounds, investigates, then sees a human standing there.
> The reaction of the human, IMO has been a natural tendency to freeze up.
> I've encouraged the "humans" to put their hand out to allow Kira to smell. When they do that, Kira would sniff, lick their hand, and go back to her mat. Nothing more. No excited greetings, no jumping, nothing.


If she did exactly what you just said than she knew that somebody was in the house and that is why I'd like to see a video. You say you think she was surprised but your wording says "No she wasn't."


How are you dealing with this? Are you always trying to be on top of things, tensing up yourself waiting for a disaster to happen? Because THAT is what could actually trigger her behavior in certain situations, like the situation with the boy. Because she could just see it as you projecting "Danger in the house" and that she has to do something about it because she feels that you are not being a good leader and she has to take care of these things. Putting a dog that is thinner nerved into that situation is a bad mix and it will only make things worse. 

The problem might actually be YOU and not so much Kira. Your feelings, emotions, worries and fear might actually be the reason why she is starting to react the way she does and it is mainly happening subconscious since a lot of people are not even aware of when exactly they are doing it.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Anthony I have always respected you for being very proactive w/ Kira.this situation is you being pro active I think that in addition to GSD hving breed traits they are also individuals.Kira may need her enviroment managed more closely then other dogs.I lived w/ Daisy who until she was three I thought was very confident but learned she wasnt. I eliminated alot of stimuli and since children were not a good mix with her hire a sitter to watch her if my husband or I might be distracted. I dont think that kira has near the issues Daisy had but if I could go back at three I would hire a trainer to come to our house who loves GSDs and knows them.
Once again not an expert just raised a dog who has reactivity . The Kira attacks thing I dont know Kira from vids you shown loves your wife ,kids and your little dog too. I think she differs family from others. As for her being surprised by people in her house,last night Lucky Mr redirectable woke up from his nap in the basement came out saw our male neighbor with me as we were pulling mt lawn tractor out of a ridge i got stuck in. Luck was ballistic ,would not stop barking and as I was otherwise engaged couldnt let go and put him on leash. Lucky reacts to tyhe fence and people being on the other side but still in his yard. I wanted to throttle him as our neighbor was helping m,e and Lucky was very ungracious to say the least. The neighbor is afraid of dogs in general and I rescued a retriever from him. He actually kind of hates dogs. desensitizing Lucky is another issue we still work on. My point is dogs who are startled often react ones who are confident like Grim bark once and then just check things out or lay down. Not confident dogs dont deescalate on their own.
Just my non expert observations. 
Maggi


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## Lilie

Anthony - I consider Hondo a fairly solid dog. He doesn't have fear issues. He isn't bothered by anything notable. He'll even sit quietly while we practice with our fire arms. 

Hondo doesn't, and never has played with dogs (ourside our own). 

He doesn't and never has been a wiggly, butt, hello, type dog. 

If someone drives down my drive, he'll bark. If someone walks down my drive, he'll bark. If I tell him 'enough' he'll be quiet. 

If we have a visitor, I'll introduce Hondo to them, and all is fine. If we get too many people around, I'll put him up. He doesn't get nervous, he doesn't get aggressive, he just doesn't appreciate people trying to pet him and call him to them and fawn all over him. 

I've never had a stranger/neighbor/family member just appear in my home. I would suspect Hondo would react if he walked around the corner and there was a person standing there. 

Honestly, most folks are more worried about how I'd react if they just walked into my home.


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## billsharp

Anthony, I applaud your introspection and willingness to explore the possibility that maybe Kira's behavior needs some attention. After the "Chihuahua" post I was concerned that you took too much pride in her aggressive reaction.

In reading your posts I haven't seen information about what you have done (if anything) to try and train Kira that she should not react to people entering the house. In one of your posts you even say that you will set up a video camera so we can see what she does the next time someone comes over. Really? Will that friend know that they are going to be the guinea pig?

I suggest that you go back to basics with Kira on training her about how to react to people and dogs coming inside the house. Just like the great job you obviously did with her on her reaction to people and dogs outside, you need to put her on a leash with a choke chain, get a pocketful of treats, and drill her on how to behave. Since you evidently have a stable of young teens who like to visit and with whom she is somewhat familiar this shouldn't be a problem. Have them enter the house with treats, and you have Kira 10 feet from the door on her leash. Correct bad behavior and reward good behavior, until she gets it. Let these visitors give her treats. 

Extend those lessons after a few weeks to LEASHED and steady-nerved dogs. Once she has that expand it to off leash dogs entering your home, then strangers (to her, but enlist the cooperation of people you know, co-workers, etc.) Keep her on a leash this entire time until she shows no sign of aggression. 

IMHO your goal should be to get her to see someone coming into the house in a relaxed, friendly manner as a non-event, and to take her cue from how YOU react to that person. The problem now is that she is being allowed to make the decision about whether people and dogs who aren't a part of her immediate pack should be allowed inside based on pure instinct, and that is dangerous for you and your guests.


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## Blanketback

Anthony, I'm not a master trainer by any means - so if anything I write is completely off the wall I hope that someone with more knowledge will correct me. But, having said that, I'm now raising my 4th GSD, and have spent my whole decades-long life living with dogs. 

If Kira has a perfect "Down" and you can command that while she's rushing up to her perceived threat, then that says ALOT. This is excellent!This is what I always train - it comes in handy in so many situations. And I don't expect my dogs to not rush and bark, not when they're young. Not that it's a pleasure to put up with, but I see it as a sign of a healthy GSD. It's been my experience that the dogs that DON'T bark are the ones to inflict a bite, so I don't want to extinguish that very important form of communication (barking) from them. 

Whenever DH or I enter our backyard through the front door, my puppy will rush the back gate barking. DH thinks he's a nutcase for barking at us. I think he's listening to the sound of feet crushing on the gravel, but can't see who it is, and just starts barking at the noise first. If I agreed with DH, I'd worry about his eyesight, his nerves, all sorts of things. But at 9 months, I just see it as him growing into himself. 

I guess my question is, when Kira rushes and barks at guests (not the Chi, that was silly) how do you respond?


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## Anthony8858

billsharp said:


> Anthony, I applaud your introspection and willingness to explore the possibility that maybe Kira's behavior needs some attention. After the "Chihuahua" post I was concerned that you took too much pride in her aggressive reaction.
> 
> Nah, not at all. It's not always easy to express one's self on the internet. I didn't know what to think about her reaction. I wouldn't have followed up with this thread, if I accepted her behavior.
> Truth is... I didn't recognize it.
> 
> In reading your posts I haven't seen information about what you have done (if anything) to try and train Kira that she should not react to people entering the house. In one of your posts you even say that you will set up a video camera so we can see what she does the next time someone comes over. Really? Will that friend know that they are going to be the guinea pig?
> 
> I have a gate that separates the kitchen area and the front entrance. I can stage it with a willing participant, without safety concerns.
> Isn't that how I would determine the course to cure?
> 
> I suggest that you go back to basics with Kira on training her about how to react to people and dogs coming inside the house. Just like the great job you obviously did with her on her reaction to people and dogs outside, you need to put her on a leash with a choke chain, get a pocketful of treats, and drill her on how to behave. Since you evidently have a stable of young teens who like to visit and with whom she is somewhat familiar this shouldn't be a problem. Have them enter the house with treats, and you have Kira 10 feet from the door on her leash. Correct bad behavior and reward good behavior, until she gets it. Let these visitors give her treats.
> 
> Extend those lessons after a few weeks to LEASHED and steady-nerved dogs. Once she has that expand it to off leash dogs entering your home, then strangers (to her, but enlist the cooperation of people you know, co-workers, etc.) Keep her on a leash this entire time until she shows no sign of aggression.
> 
> IMHO your goal should be to get her to see someone coming into the house in a relaxed, friendly manner as a non-event, and to take her cue from how YOU react to that person. The problem now is that she is being allowed to make the decision about whether people and dogs who aren't a part of her immediate pack should be allowed inside based on pure instinct, and that is dangerous for you and your guests.


I like this advice.
Thank you


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## qbchottu

Sunflowers said:


> Wouldn't any GSD, or other breed, for that matter, bark if he suddenly found a Chi in his house?
> In every incident you described, she barked but then was fine. Didn't attack. Wouldn't a truly aggressive dog just run on over and lunge and bite?





cliffson1 said:


> Sunflowers, I really like your post....I see it the same way. Her behavior seems no different to me than many many toy breed dogs I have seen over the years. When they first come into contact with someone new they rush forward barking, and then usually walk away if you stand there or go back to starting point. Maybe giving another bark, maybe not. If your dog was aggressive you have she has had plenty of opportunities to be truly aggressive. She is a GS,(which is aloof by standard), she has less than optimum nerves,(which makes her reactive), but overall a nice dog. I think the main problem is your expectations, she is not going to be the type of dog in certain situations that a dog with better nerve would be. Dogs like Kira have to be managed in certain situations, otherwise they are fine. They can't be compared to other GS, some things can't be fixed when distractions or new elements are introduced. Accept her for what she is and don't over analyze her behaviors, unless she does something irrational. *Right now what you are describing makes plenty sense considering the circumstances.*jmo


:thumbup:


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## carmspack

so Anthony , lol , YOU wanted to harrass your wife and the dog was your agent , lol. 

the dog is not clear in her thinking , as someone mentioned there are internal conflicts. Well this doesn't help her . You send the dog to harrass your wife , you enjoy it , but your wife gets annoyed and sends that signal to the dog . So if there is an issue with the dog and you are not home , will your wife have any problems or confidence with the dog in handling her , and will the dog respect her .


I have two kids that are now adults . A girl and her brother 7 years her juniour . We had so many sleep overs , so many kid-community dinners - always room for one more. The dog would bark at the arriving car the young teens , one woof to acknowledge a change , then the kids would give a knock , open door slightly and I would holler - come on in , they're upstairs . By that time all the boys , or girls , depending on whose gathering it was , would be at the top of the stairs , giddy with laughter inviting the new friend to join in. 
Sundays - a house tradition -- Sunday think-tank sessions . Brunch - and friends dropping in to hang out - for the day . When we are fine and relaxed the dog (s) are fine and relaxed.

Want to see good temperament - go to the Lynx retires thread --


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## msvette2u

> IMHO your goal should be to get her to see someone coming into the house in a relaxed, friendly manner as a non-event, and to take her cue from how YOU react to that person.


This is what we worked on with our GSD. I didn't analyze to see if he was afraid, nervous, shy, etc.
I simply trained him to ignore (for instance) cars going by, which triggered barking, and he was taught to rely on us and our body language for when visitors came over. 
Even if Kira rushes someone, she should be able to be called off, and/or drop on command. 

Can you train her for "a polite sniff"? You've been successful in training her to do many other things. 

I said it already but you may have missed it - I do not think Kira's aggressive. I'm not even for sure if she's not "stable". If she isn't, she's a lot more stable than many Shepherds out there. 
I'd still not train her (or encourage her) to "attack", even in play :thumbup:


----------



## Anthony8858

carmspack said:


> so Anthony , lol , YOU wanted to harrass your wife and the dog was your agent , lol.
> 
> OK, YES!! I confess! I wanted Kira to nibble on her ankles. You're breaking me under pressure.
> Myself and the kids were hiding behind a wall, and we were atching my wife do her workout. She had no idea we were there. I whispered in Kira's ear "go bite mommys' ankle"... What made it funny, is that she actually did it.
> 
> If there was a video camera on the other side, you'd see me, my three girls, and Kira hiding.
> I guess you had to be there. It was one of tose funny family moments.
> 
> 
> the dog is not clear in her thinking , as someone mentioned there are internal conflicts. Well this doesn't help her . You send the dog to harrass your wife , you enjoy it , but your wife gets annoyed and sends that signal to the dog . So if there is an issue with the dog and you are not home , will your wife have any problems or confidence with the dog in handling her , and will the dog respect her .
> 
> My wife attends obedience school with her. This video was 5 months ago, and a joke. Since then, my wife has full control and respect from Kira.
> 
> I have two kids that are now adults . A girl and her brother 7 years her juniour . We had so many sleep overs , so many kid-community dinners - always room for one more. The dog would bark at the arriving car the young teens , one woof to acknowledge a change , then the kids would give a knock , open door slightly and I would holler - come on in , they're upstairs . By that time all the boys , or girls , depending on whose gathering it was , would be at the top of the stairs , giddy with laughter inviting the new friend to join in.
> Sundays - a house tradition -- Sunday think-tank sessions . Brunch - and friends dropping in to hang out - for the day . When we are fine and relaxed the dog (s) are fine and relaxed.
> 
> I'm sure this didn't happen over night. Kira is young. I'm still raising her as a pup. I see a potential issue, I come here for answers.
> Is that not why we have this forum?
> Or should we all just sit around and brag about our accomplishments, and pound our chest?
> My dog is better than your dog nonsense.
> 
> Want to see good temperament - go to the Lynx retires thread --


I'm sure Lynx has a wonderful dog. But it took training to do that.


----------



## carmspack

NO IT DID NOT TAKE TRAINING - that is the whole point , the dog is or is not . He is one sound dog. My dogs are like that and it is not training . 

so do you want help or not ? then don't throw out offensive stuff like this -- when I am trying to illustrate how it can be and should be . 

"Or should we all just sit around and brag about our accomplishments, and pound our chest?
My dog is better than your dog nonsense."


----------



## Anthony8858

msvette2u said:


> This is what we worked on with our GSD. I didn't analyze to see if he was afraid, nervous, shy, etc.
> I simply trained him to ignore (for instance) cars going by, which triggered barking, and he was taught to rely on us and our body language for when visitors came over.
> Even if Kira rushes someone, she should be able to be called off, and/or drop on command.
> 
> She will stop dead in her tracks, if need be.
> 
> Can you train her for "a polite sniff"? You've been successful in training her to do many other things.
> 
> Yes. I mentioned earlier, that I encouraged the guest to put his hand out and offer a sniff. Kira sniffed his hand, licked it and walked away.
> 
> 
> *I said it already but you may have missed it - I do not think Kira's aggressive*. I'm not even for sure if she's not "stable". If she isn't, she's a lot more stable than many Shepherds out there.
> I'd still not train her (or encourage her) to "attack", even in play :thumbup:


I don't think she's aggressive either. But if you didn't know better, she'd scare the bloomers off you.
I want to work on that. Aggressive, excitement, alarmist, weak nerve, whatever you want to call it. I see a form of behavior that's not acceptable.


----------



## Mrs.K

_



Sunflowers, I really like your post....I see it the same way. Her behavior seems no different to me than many many toy breed dogs I have seen over the years. When they first come into contact with someone new they rush forward barking, and then usually walk away if you stand there or go back to starting point. Maybe giving another bark, maybe not. If your dog was aggressive you have she has had plenty of opportunities to be truly aggressive. She is a GS,(which is aloof by standard), she has less than optimum nerves,(which makes her reactive), but overall a nice dog. I think the main problem is your expectations, she is not going to be the type of dog in certain situations that a dog with better nerve would be. Dogs like Kira have to be managed in certain situations, otherwise they are fine. They can't be compared to other GS, some things can't be fixed when distractions or new elements are introduced. Accept her for what she is and don't over analyze her behaviors, unless she does something irrational. *Right now what you are describing makes plenty sense considering the circumstances.*jmo

Click to expand...

EXACTLY! :thumbup:
_


----------



## msvette2u

This isn't about whose dog is better. Not at all.
Some dogs are more stable, others aren't. 
We can't control those things, even as purchasers, although stacking the odds with genetically sound parents helps. 

Rescuers and adopters, even less so. Our current dog is extremely stable, nerves-wise. I'm very pleased. But his elbows are crap. He'll have a shortened life due to that. 
But his nerves? 100% 
Not sure I'd take good elbows over good nerves.


----------



## Mrs.K

What bugs me a bit is that the sole attention is kept on Kira. 

Kira does this, Kira does that, she has this issue she has that issue, it's Kira that is the problem. 

We all know that 95% of the time the issue lies on the other end of the leash. 

Her behavior is not really surprising to me. Right now the problem is that he's over-analyzing everything she does and expects a problem to arise because he's made BONKERS about her "fear aggression". 

You can't do this, you shouldn't do that, you need to be on top of that. 

We put FEAR into this man and if he fears her acting out every time, he tenses up, his body language changes and he's no longer free. He may not even realize he's doing it. It's mainly happening subconscious. 

However, what I'm trying to say is by trying to help him "manage" his "oh so fear aggressive" dog we might have changed the relationship of him to the dog and that is something he has to get under control. 

If he starts and continues and microanalyses everything she does and literally looks for aggression in anything and everything it's just as dangerous as not taking it seriously at all. Because she will no longer able to rely on him and will take charge over the situation which makes things worse than they actually are.


----------



## Freestep

> I'm sure this didn't happen over night. Kira is young. I'm still raising her as a pup. I see a potential issue, I come here for answers.
> Is that not why we have this forum?
> Or should we all just sit around and brag about our accomplishments, and pound our chest?
> My dog is better than your dog nonsense.




I can't believe I just read that. You are looking for help, yes? Best not to snark at those who are trying to help you.

The dog is not a toy. I know the "attack" video was a joke, and it happened a while ago, but this bears repeating: if you don't want her to be aggressive, don't encourage aggression. I know it is just play, pretty harmless in this case, but this kind of *thinking* will confuse the dog. Do you want her to be aggressive or not? 

You have done a really good job socializing Kira and getting her past her fears. She has come a long way, and she is still young, and has a way to go yet. You have come a long way also, in your thinking and training. But the whole way I sense a common thread--from the time where you were proud of her because she "grew a pair" and barked at a bigger dog that had rolled her as pup--to asking her to "harass" your wife. I sense that, somewhere deep down, you want a tough, bad-arse GSD, and Kira isn't one. There's nothing wrong with that.

I know you realize that cognitively, but it will help if you truly "get it" at all levels. I think she is picking up on your unconscious thoughts and desires, and trying very hard to please you, but she gets confused when under stress, as she isn't quite sure what you want her to do.

I think both of you will eventually figure it all out and get past these issues, but in the meantime, you need to be open to what others are telling you, especially if you ASK for help and advice.


----------



## msvette2u

> If he starts and continues to microanalyses everything she does and literally looks for aggression in anything and everything it's just as dangerous as not taking it seriously at all.


I think many owners are this way anyway.

I'm the opposite. I live with my dogs and know them so well, I know they are never a danger so forget to watch. We take it for granted they won't bite anyone.



> But if you didn't know better, she'd scare the bloomers off you.


A lot of people like that about their Shepherds. 
Isn't that why we got them? Besides beauty and intelligence, anyway, a lot of us, well, _we_ anyway, wanted a dog to "scare the bloomers off" people so they don't try any funny business around our home. 
A dog to just look intimidating is enough. If they bark, all the better!
If we didn't care about the intimidation factor we'd have gotten another Dachshund!


----------



## Blanketback

Anthony8858 said:


> I don't think she's aggressive either. But if you didn't know better, she'd scare the bloomers off you.
> I want to work on that. Aggressive, excitement, alarmist, weak nerve, whatever you want to call it. I see a form of behavior that's not acceptable.


If Kira is displaying normal GSD behavior, what do you want to change?
What ARE you doing? I'm not being snarky, but you don't like her behavior, so how are you correcting it? I think this is what's going to determine how she reacts in the long run, and if you want to discuss it and get feedback on what would work best for you, you'll have to describe your actions too.


----------



## Mrs.K

Another thing, how old is Kira now?


----------



## NancyJ

All the canine psychoanalysis aside..............I think Bill Sharp gives very simple, easy to follow, and sound advice. 

In my mind, her doggy mind should not ever be asked or allowed to discriminate friend or foe


----------



## Anthony8858

carmspack said:


> NO IT DID NOT TAKE TRAINING - that is the whole point , the dog is or is not . He is one sound dog. My dogs are like that and it is not training .
> 
> So you're saying that your dogs don't bark at strangers, and it's because they are simply "like that"? And you had nothing to do with that?
> All of your post show nothing but a vast knowledge of dogs. Whether it's behavior, nutritional, etc...
> And yet, you were gifted with perfect dogs.
> Sorry, maybe you don't realize how much your knowledge comes into play here.
> 
> so do you want help or not ? then don't throw out offensive stuff like this -- when I am trying to illustrate how it can be and should be .
> 
> "Or should we all just sit around and brag about our accomplishments, and pound our chest?
> My dog is better than your dog nonsense."


I see nothing wrong with this.

Carmen, you ask if I want help or not... But if you go back and read your responses, you seem more fixated on my wife's practical joke from 5 months ago, than the subject I've raised here today.

I have respect for you and your contributions here, but lately, I've picked up quite a bit of apprehension in some of your replies to me.
If you simply don't like me, or feel that I'm not a good dog owner, then I'm sorry. I can't help you.

I come here to learn to be a better owner.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Anthony this is not directly related to your dog.
When reading the responses here and on other threads I realize that I raised a bunch of dogs both GSD and other over the years and never concerned myself with whether they were afraid or not.

I had nice family dogs who were happy and never bit anyone or even came close. Except for one rescue dog I have mentioned before.

Now all of my dogs, GSD or not barked at strange people and strange dogs that entered the property or house unannounced. Personally I think it is normal and I would wonder about any dog who pretended everything was just fine with some stranger wandering around the house. 

The only one of those scenarios your girl did that would concern me is where she chased the guy on the porch.

I am starting to wonder why so many people think that if a dog barks at strangers or strange dogs that somehow translates into fear. If that is the criteria for fearful dogs then we have millions of them floating around.

Your dog may not have the greatest nerve base but if she obeys your commands then you are ahead of the game. 

Anyone ever walk up to or near a K9 dog in the car barking it's fool head off. Is he/she afraid?


----------



## Mrs.K

jocoyn said:


> All the canine psychoanalysis aside..............I think Bill Sharp gives very simple, easy to follow, and sound advice.
> 
> In my mind, her doggy mind should not ever be asked or allowed to discriminate friend or foe


Agreed. Which basically is the same thing I'm saying. She feels that she is in charge and needs to make that decision to discriminate between friend and foe *if *that is what is really happening. 

Just take her out of the picture, don't let her make the decision, YOU make it for her.


----------



## NancyJ

Jack's Dad said:


> I am starting to wonder why so many people think that if a dog barks at strangers or strange dogs that somehow translates into fear. If that is the criteria for fearful dogs then we have millions of them floating around.


I keep hearing the term "strangers" but then the "strangers" are kids who are regulars at the house as well as the mother in law who we would presume is also known to the dog. Dogs remember folks for a looooong time. My dogs even would know my parents after months of not seeing them..................


----------



## Anthony8858

Mrs.K said:


> What bugs me a bit is that the sole attention is kept on Kira.
> 
> Kira does this, Kira does that, she has this issue she has that issue, it's Kira that is the problem.
> 
> We all know that 95% of the time the issue lies on the other end of the leash.
> 
> Her behavior is not really surprising to me. Right now the problem is that he's over-analyzing everything she does and expects a problem to arise because he's made BONKERS about her "fear aggression".
> 
> You can't do this, you shouldn't do that, you need to be on top of that.
> 
> We put FEAR into this man and if he fears her acting out every time, he tenses up, his body language changes and he's no longer free. He may not even realize he's doing it. It's mainly happening subconscious.
> 
> However, what I'm trying to say is by trying to help him "manage" his "oh so fear aggressive" dog we might have changed the relationship of him to the dog and that is something he has to get under control.
> 
> If he starts and continues and microanalyses everything she does and literally looks for aggression in anything and everything it's just as dangerous as not taking it seriously at all. Because she will no longer able to rely on him and will take charge over the situation which makes things worse than they actually are.





Blanketback said:


> If Kira is displaying normal GSD behavior, what do you want to change?
> What ARE you doing? I'm not being snarky, but you don't like her behavior, so how are you correcting it?
> 
> I don't think barking at teenage kids should be tolerated. That's my opinion. Whether or not we want to determine WHY she's doing it, I guess that's up to us.
> As far as correcting it, I can easily call her back.
> Here's the problem... I'm not always there to do this. I could be sitting in my back yard, or relaxing in my easy chair, and she would bolt up at the first sight of a stranger.
> I'm not quick enough, and not always on guard for this. It happens in a flash.
> When she does do this, I get up, tell her to "knock it off", and put myself between her and what she's barking at.
> 
> In some cases, the gate might be open, and she would bolt towards the stranger, barking. She would scare the bejeezus out of someone, before I can get there to correct it.
> 
> Last night (when she scared the teen into the house), I was positioned to stop and drop her.
> I think this is what's going to determine how she reacts in the long run, and if you want to discuss it and get feedback on what would work best for you, you'll have to describe your actions too.





Mrs.K said:


> Another thing, how old is Kira now?


Kira is now 13 months



Mrs.K said:


> Agreed. Which basically is the same thing I'm saying. She feels that she is in charge and needs to make that decision to discriminate between friend and foe *if *that is what is really happening.
> 
> Just take her out of the picture, don't let her make the decision, YOU make it for her.


Understood. Not always possible. I need to catch her before she bolts.


----------



## carmspack

So you're saying that your dogs don't bark at strangers, and it's because they are simply "like that"? And you had nothing to do with that?

how to get rid of this red --- pretend it is in black --- 

yes . when I am here and with the people the dogs read my acceptance and relaxed state --- if I were in the house and people got out of their car I would know long before you hit the front door . If the dog was in the house and one of the kids opened the door to let a friend in the dog would look to see , be a nosy parker , but would be neutral -- I used to be a block parent and we would have a 6 foot sofa lined with kids "boat people" arriving in our neighbourhood and the dogs would love them up , especially fond of children -- not just one dog , years and decades of them. Something to do with it. Yeah . Selection process in breeding . Not training them to be like that . 

So I share what knowledge I have gained and continue to gain . Don't have to . Love to , though.


----------



## Jack's Dad

jocoyn said:


> I keep hearing the term "strangers" but then the "strangers" are kids who are regulars at the house as well as the mother in law who we would presume is also known to the dog. Dogs remember folks for a looooong time. My dogs even would know my parents after months of not seeing them..................


That's why I started with, that it wasn't directly related to Kira.

I've seen it on many threads. Dog barks it must be afraid.
I think dog barks it must be a dog.


----------



## Anthony8858

Jack's Dad said:


> Anthony this is not directly related to your dog.
> When reading the responses here and on other threads I realize that I raised a bunch of dogs both GSD and other over the years and never concerned myself with whether they were afraid or not.
> 
> I had nice family dogs who were happy and never bit anyone or even came close. Except for one rescue dog I have mentioned before.
> 
> Now all of my dogs, GSD or not barked at strange people and strange dogs that entered the property or house unannounced. Personally I think it is normal and I would wonder about any dog who pretended everything was just fine with some stranger wandering around the house.
> 
> The only one of those scenarios your girl did that would concern me is where she chased the guy on the porch.
> 
> I am starting to wonder why so many people think that if a dog barks at strangers or strange dogs that somehow translates into fear. If that is the criteria for fearful dogs then we have millions of them floating around.
> 
> Your dog may not have the greatest nerve base but if she obeys your commands then you are ahead of the game.
> 
> Anyone ever walk up to or near a K9 dog in the car barking it's fool head off. Is he/she afraid?





Mrs.K said:


> Agreed. Which basically is the same thing I'm saying. She feels that she is in charge and needs to make that decision to discriminate between friend and foe *if *that is what is really happening.
> 
> Just take her out of the picture, don't let her make the decision, YOU make it for her.


There was a recent incident, where Kira again barked at one of my daughter's friends. I was out with Kira (working her), and while we were gone, this young man came home with my daughter, and they were playing video games in my basement theater room.
The room is sound proofed, and the door was closed. I had no idea she was even home, and I'd bet neither did Kira.

Fast forward half hour...

Kira sleeping on the floor beneath my feet in the family room on the first level. This young man comes upstairs, and enters the main floor. Kira spots him standing there, and she jumps up and starts barking in her loud, deep tone. she approaches the closed gate that separates the kitchen and landing. She jumps up, and puts both paws on the gate.
Kira knows the command "spot", which means "go to her spot". I say "Kira Spot!" She stops, turns, and goes to lay down on her mat. Kid walks in the room, uneventful. gets a drink, and leaves. Nothing more happened.


----------



## carmspack

Like a bad bank balance I had to get out of the RED.

Anthony your words 
"All of a sudden, Kira goes bonkers!!
Her hackles are up from head to tail, her teeth are chomping at the gate that separates the kitchen and where the dog entered.
She was livid, and very imposing."

The dog was SCARED , not livid . 
The person that "walked in" was an invited guest . Your daughter opened the door and invited her in "My 8 year old daughter was over her house for a playdate.
About 6 pm, my daughter simply opens the front door to my house, and the neighbor walks in my house with her dog OFF LEASH, and FREE on my floor."
Maybe you were livid that the chi dog was free on your floor. Not the brightest idea -- but when the daughter was at the door , you could have been welcoming yourself - give the dog an indication of your being okay, and asked the visitor to carry the chi dog . 
That is why I used the example of my home being the hub of young teen life , coming and going , in drifts and waves , always made welcome . 


"Kira is the most mild mannered, quite dog I've seen. Never barks at anyone, and I've trained her to respect people coming into my home"

totally opposite of the scenario you are presenting in this thread -- quotes pulled from recent "neighbour took some risky chances"

that is the point of the harrassing wife -- the dog is confused -- this will not help her sort things out .


----------



## Mrs.K

> I don't think barking at teenage kids should be tolerated. That's my opinion. Whether or not we want to determine WHY she's doing it, I guess that's up to us.
> As far as correcting it, I can easily call her back.
> Here's the problem... I'm not always there to do this. I could be sitting in my back yard, or relaxing in my easy chair, and she would bolt up at the first sight of a stranger.
> I'm not quick enough, and not always on guard for this. It happens in a flash.
> When she does do this, I get up, tell her to "knock it off", and put myself between her and what she's barking at.
> 
> In some cases, the gate might be open, and she would bolt towards the stranger, barking. She would scare the bejeezus out of someone, before I can get there to correct it.
> 
> *DO NOT LEAVE THE GATE OPEN! You KNOW the problem. Your kids are old enough to understand, why the heck would the gate be open if you know what the issue is? *
> 
> Last night (when she scared the teen into the house), I was positioned to stop and drop her.


First of all, barking at the door when a stranger is knocking or ringing, is not a big issue. It's absolutely normal for a dog to alert "Hey, there is a stranger at the door." 

If you know that there is a guest coming, you can control the situation. Why wouldn't you control the situation? When I know I have guests coming that bring another dog, I formally introduce the dog to the pack. That doesn't mean that I throw the dog into the house. No, I control the situation and how they are introduced to another dog. 

When the dog warden came to see how our dogs live (remember the accident between my friend and Nala, he picked up a stick and she went for it and got his pinky in the process and he ended up going to the ER and lied about what happened?). I controlled the situation. The third one was out with my husband, the two girls at home. When the car rolled into the drive way, I went to the door, the girls had to make room and respect my space. I let the dog warden in, I BROUGHT her into the house and the dogs were calm, did not jump up or suck up to her, no butt wiggling or concerned/worried at all. 
No stranger should be allowed to simply walk in and out of the house. I hate when people do that anyways. It's disrespectful. Even if I am your best friend, I'd still walk up to the door, knock and step back down until YOU open the door and invite me in. It's MANNERS!

You know how much traffic is going in and out of YOUR house. You know how it is, your kids have to be in this as well. 
It's not that hard, your kids can take responsibility. We did it back then. Five males in the house, kids coming in and out on a daily basis. It was normal procedure. If we were alone, the dogs went into the trailer, period, or they were in the backyard, in the house whatever... 

If you can't control the situation, it's YOU that is the problem, NOT the dog!


----------



## NancyJ

Andy, re general statement

This is true...I was actually trying to figure out what IS appropriate. Beau (12 months) just wants anybody that comes near his crate in the truck to pet him and really does not alarm bark at all. . Actually quite aloof to strangers all the way around and does not really seem to bark much at all. Works for me.

Grim is 9 and does alarm bark and you would think he would remove your arm if you touch his truck. Before I got him he was trained in bitework and had a bark and hold etc., the irony is I think a total stranger who ignores his barking could take him right out of the truck and he would be fine (which also is not appropriate) not sure why the barking.......other than to "notify".....

I am certain an appropriate GSD should not let folks come in and rob you blind and would be safe for all, but I would not lay that claim on my guys..........


----------



## Anthony8858

carmspack said:


> So you're saying that your dogs don't bark at strangers, and it's because they are simply "like that"? And you had nothing to do with that?
> 
> how to get rid of this red --- pretend it is in black ---
> 
> *yes . when I am here and with the people the dogs read my acceptance and relaxed state --- *if I were in the house and people got out of their car I would know long before you hit the front door . If the dog was in the house and one of the kids opened the door to let a friend in the dog would look to see , be a nosy parker , but would be neutral -- I used to be a block parent and we would have a 6 foot sofa lined with kids "boat people" arriving in our neighbourhood and the dogs would love them up , especially fond of children -- not just one dog , years and decades of them. Something to do with it. Yeah . Selection process in breeding . Not training them to be like that .
> 
> So I share what knowledge I have gained and continue to gain . Don't have to . Love to , though.


 I think you give your dogs too much credit. You're a very intuitive owner, and your dogs are *trained* to understand you.
You may not realize it, but you did train them.


----------



## carmspack

nonsense -- because they are the SAME animal if they leave my house at 8 weeks and live with another family, or trainer , or leave my house, or Mike Clays place when they are 12 - 18 months to join a police dept with another handler , never ever ever seeing me, or us again for their entire lives. I have had so many police dogs do public relations, metro Toronto got community support because of the public relations that Tell and Keno did with their respective handlers, same for Kawartha Lakes, Baltimore Maryland, Kingston , Rochester ............

Look to Jynx. Till you understand this you won't understand the dynamics going on between you and your dog.


----------



## carmspack

ahhhh , on a note before I get to work ..... what then is the point in examining pedigrees and trying to understand what the potentials and limitations may be ?

If all, including , temperament, is trained into the dog?


----------



## Blanketback

So if I'm interpreting this correctly, you have 3 different ways of dealing with the rushing/barking:
1) "Down" and Kira drops in place
2) "Knock it off" and you move to block
3) "Spot" and she goes to her bed

As Msvette2u mentioned, muscle memory. If you picked one way to deal with this, and you were consistant with it, it would be easier for you both.
For instance, my last GSD was trained to "Down" whenever one of the many free-roaming dogs in our neighborhood walked past our property. After a while, he just automatically lay down whenever he saw another dog walk down the road, leashed or not, without me saying a word. 

There seems to be alot of activity going on at you house, and to have any success with this, you may have to keep Kira on a long line with you for a while to get anywhere. Decide on the 1 behavior you'd like from her, instead of 3. She's still very very young and needs your direction.


----------



## cliffson1

I think this belongs in a " chat " room. There have been several good explanations, good advice, from creditable people. Methinks, sir, you just enjoy the back and forth.


----------



## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> nonsense -- because they are the SAME animal if they leave my house at 8 weeks and live with another family, or trainer , or leave my house, or Mike Clays place when they are 12 - 18 months to join a police dept with another handler , never ever ever seeing me, or us again for their entire lives. I have had so many police dogs do public relations, metro Toronto got community support because of the public relations that Tell and Keno did with their respective handlers, same for Kawartha Lakes, Baltimore Maryland, Kingston , Rochester ............
> 
> Look to Jynx. Till you understand this you won't understand the dynamics going on between you and your dog.


Carmen, with all due respect, a good puppy can seriously get ****ed up by the wrong person and turned into an anti-social maniac. 

The owners make or break the dog. If it was that easy, saying that the owner doesn't play a role in how a dog turns out... come on Carmen...


----------



## Anthony8858

carmspack said:


> ahhhh , on a note before I get to work ..... what then is the point in examining pedigrees and trying to understand what the potentials and limitations may be ?
> 
> If all, including , temperament, is trained into the dog?


 
If that were 100% true, then my Kira's strong pedigree should've solved all her problems.

Her father is Remo, who happens to be World Seiger 2011, and her mom is a 2009 National Seiger winner. I'd say they have decent credentials.

Feel free:

IKira Von Wilhendorf - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> I think this belongs in a " chat " room. There have been several good explanations, good advice, from creditable people. Methinks, sir, you just enjoy the back and forth.


Yah, those "issues" can easily be fixed. 

Of course a dog is running to the gate when a stranger approaches. Nothing new. It's the dogs territory, so don't leave the gate open. If it is the kids that leave it open, have a talk with them and put a sign on the gate to ALWAYS close the gate. There, problem fixed!

If you know that you get a guest, control the situation. Either take the dog out of the picture or when you hear the car pull up in the drive way, be at the door already. 

Another thing you can do is to get a mannersminder and condition the dog that anytime the bell rings, she has to go to her place. The mannersminder is actually a perfect tool to do that with.


----------



## selzer

Anthony,

I did not watch the vid. I saw the thread and looked and when I read that you wanted the dog to harass your wife, I just skipped it, figuring it was either a joke, or something that would tick me off, and figured I'd pass.

If constant kid traffic is the norm in the house from puppy on up, then a dog with decent nerves is not going to react to kid traffic. However, if an owner has the dog on lead and is grabbing a tight hold of the lead when kids come over, ready to react to any reaction by the dog, then I think even a dog with good nerve might respond in some way if he suddenly is face to face with someone that does not live there. 

I agree with Mrs.K that a lot of time the problem is on the other end of the leash. Someone who has had dogs most of their lives is going to be more relaxed and have expectations for the dog that are specific to what they understand about that dog. Someone who has not had dogs, working dogs, GSD dogs cannot possibly be as relaxed and understand enough about that dog to have expectations for that dog specific to who that dog is.

Your dog is who she is. I do not know if what I have read in this thread indicates weak nerves, or if it indicates a young, maturing dog with a not so experienced set of owners. Be that as it may. For all of us, the dogs are who they are, and we their owners, to be truly responsible for them, have to learn them. People preach socialization, but when people socialize a puppy giving the puppy mixed signals, and responding inappropriately to a pup's reactions, even that can backfire. It sounds like you have socialized her, and she has experiences to draw upon. 

At this point, I think it cannot hurt to build her confidence. Whatever her temperament truly is, this cannot hurt, and for a less confident dog, it can really help the owners and the dog gain confidence in each other. A lot of people suggest agility training. Agility training has obstacles and a full body workout for the dog, but it is also VERY treat/praise oriented. No corrections. Lots of treat, lots of praise, fast moving, excitement in the air. Dogs love it, generally. I think you can get similar results with training tricks, or training fly ball, or training many other things, if you keep it fun and light, lots of praise/treats, good things for doing what is wanted. When the dog figures out how to get the goodies from you, it boosts their confidence. 

The dog is who she is, yes. This is true. But it is not true too. The dog is born with a certain amount of potential. There are things we can do to help them reach their potential. There are things that we owners can do that will reduce our dogs' ability to function properly in a variety of situations.

I think a lot of times we have expectations for our new dog, we want a dog that will be and obedience champion, or a dog that will be a good protection dog, we want a dog that will run six miles every day with us, or a dog that will decorate our living room, and be a couch potato. I think that sometimes we try to shove a square peg into a round hole. That is just not comfortable for us and certainly not comfortable for the dog. The point is to find where your pup's strengths lie, and to run with it. Set her up to succeed and then praise her for it. Keep it light, fast paced, fun, and quit with her wanting more.

I am hearing people say over and over she is what she is, but that is not a pass to give up on her or to excuse her behavior. It just means that for this dog, you need to be that much more conscious of her confidence levels in all situations, try to build her confidence, and at the same time reduce the opportunity for her to get to the place where she might react. Learn her. 

Good luck.


----------



## Anthony8858

Mrs.K said:


> *Carmen, with all due respect, a good puppy can seriously get ****ed up by the wrong person and turned into an anti-social maniac. *
> 
> The owners make or break the dog. If it was that easy, saying that the owner doesn't play a role in how a dog turns out... come on Carmen...


 
Starting to think that I'm that owner. ^^^


----------



## Mrs.K

Anthony8858 said:


> If that were 100% true, then my Kira's strong pedigree should've solved all her problems.
> 
> Her father is Remo, who happens to be World Seiger 2011, and her mom is a 2009 National Seiger winner. I'd say they have decent credentials.
> 
> Feel free:
> 
> IKira Von Wilhendorf - German Shepherd Dog



I don't want to be the one bursting your bubble. 

There is so much corruption in the Showline world it's not funny. I wouldn't be surprised if the Worldsieger was already selected before the show. 
There are MILLIONS of dollars at stake and it's a well known secret whats going on in the German Showline world. 

Just because she's got champion parents doesn't mean she's got stable nerves, confidence or courage because that is NOT what these dogs are selected for. 

I don't even have to look at the pedigree and I can tell you right off the bat that there are probably several red flags in it and that your dog has probably dogs in her pedigree that are weak nerved and selected for their looks and how they pass on that looks but not well known for their stability and strong nerves...


----------



## Lilie

Anthony8858 said:


> Starting to think that I'm that owner. ^^^


Anthony - from your posts, you are far from that type of owner. Your biggest enemy is you. 

You want what is best for your dog and you're willing to do what it takes. That is a HUGE step in the right direction.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Anthony.
there is a you tube video of the 2009 sieger trial that has been on the forum a few times. It would help answer your question about her pedigree.

Never mind Mrs.K nailed it.


----------



## carmspack

what strong pedigree? 
If that were 100% true, then my Kira's strong pedigree should've solved all her problems.

Her father is Remo, who happens to be World Seiger 2011, and her mom is a 2009 National Seiger winner. I'd say they have decent credentials


----------



## Mrs.K

Anthony8858 said:


> Starting to think that I'm that owner. ^^^


No. You are not that kind of owner. I wasn't talking about you. 

My own boy is the prime example of what can happen if a well-bred puppy lands in the wrong hands and a good pedigree won't protect them from what these owners do to them. 

In my opinion, some people spend way too much time to analyze genetics without looking at the actual dog. Genetics is not everything. Yes, it is super important but not everything.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Anthony, you might need to be a little more proactive. 

One example. Last night Kira chased someone from your yard into the house. First you let her do what she wanted to do, and then you reacted. Even if it all transpired in a few seconds, Kira was calling the shots to begin with. Do you see that? 
You need to reverse that process and take control from the get go in any situation that Kira might overreact to. If you aren't sure, error on the side of safety. If Kira had been on a leash in the truck she couldn't have chased your daughter's friend. The down from a dead run is good to have but you can't continue to use it for control, you're playing with fire. 

Have you had Kira evaluated in person by someone who knows GSD's or works with reactive dogs?


----------



## Anthony8858

Mrs.K said:


> I don't want to be the one bursting your bubble.
> 
> There is so much corruption in the Showline world it's not funny. I wouldn't be surprised if the Worldsieger was already selected before the show.
> There are MILLIONS of dollars at stake and it's a well known secret whats going on in the German Showline world.
> 
> *Just because she's got champion parents doesn't mean she's got stable nerves, confidence or courage because that is NOT what these dogs are selected for. *
> 
> I don't even have to look at the pedigree and I can tell you right off the bat that there are probably several red flags in it and that your dog has probably dogs in her pedigree that are weak nerved and* selected for their looks and how they pass on that looks but not well known for their stability and strong nerves..*.


 
Understood. Bubble not burst.. Probably part of the problem.


----------



## Anthony8858

Whiteshepherds said:


> Anthony, you might need to be a little more proactive.
> 
> One example.* Last night Kira chased someone from your yard into the house. First you let her do what she wanted to do, and then you reacted. Even if it all transpired in a few seconds, Kira was calling the shots to begin with. Do you see that? *
> You need to reverse that process and take control from the get go in any situation that Kira might overreact to. If you aren't sure, error on the side of safety. If Kira had been on a leash in the truck she couldn't have chased your daughter's friend. The down from a dead run is good to have but you can't continue to use it for control, you're playing with fire.
> 
> *Have you had Kira evaluated in person by someone who knows GSD's or works with reactive dogs?*




*Her obedience trainer loves her, and is amazed at her temperament, and ability to follow instruction. She routinely works her around other dogs, and never an issue. Loads of people there too. No issues.*
*Only gets a little nutty at home.*

I've been letting Kira out of our truck (off leash) for months. She would routinely get out, and wait for me at the bottom of my front steps. In this case, there was someone on my top steps (first time that's happened, and I didn't see them either. I'm old, and it was dark). I honestly didn't see this coming.
As soon as I saw what happened I reacted.


----------



## martemchik

I find that there is a fine line between "protective GSD" and "reactive GSD." I feel like some people don't want to teach their dog to stay calm in situations in case that one time there is danger and the dog doesn't react. Sadly, this is exactly what Carmen is talking about. This has to do with nerve and temperament. You shouldn't have to teach your dog to stay down when people come in because the dog is running at them and barking. It should just be a natural reaction depending on how everyone else is reacting at the time.

Here is an example...I live in a second floor apartment that has a private entrance. You walk in, and go straight up stairs to our living room. My dog usually greets people at the top of the stairs. We've never had anyone over that was a danger, or freaked us out, but his reaction is easily seen by his tail. If its someone he knows/seen a lot, the tail starts wagging as soon as they walk in, if its someone new (usually we let those people in) he doesn't wag as much, but he comes down to investigate and greet.

So...although I would definitely recommend teaching Kira a better way to greet people (work with her with treats and corrections when she does things like that). I don't think you're too worried about security (I'm not) and you just want her to be a sociable dog that you don't have to worry about. She seems to be an adolescent girl with some problems, problems that most dogs have in some way or another. If you have time, go back to obedience class, start agility, do something that will give her more confidence and give her an outlet for her energy.

Mrs. K...don't know if you read the chihuahua story but the chihuahua walked in with the owner and Anthony's younger daughter. So it wasn't sneaking onto the territory (that was a different thread). My assumption would be that if a family member walks in with new people, the new people are clearly okay and allowed to be there. Now...if the chihuahua roams and goes onto their lawn and Kira is in the yard off-leash for some reason, she can do whatever is necessary to get that dog off (that's just instinct). Sadly even that kind of situation will cause problems in the neighborhood. Kira has a great pedigree, she should be an excellent example of our breed, the father was world sieger, and I'm sure the mother is no slouch as well. She has issues that have to do with the expectations of a dog in normal day to day society.

I think my goal for a GSD is the same as Anthony's. I wanted a dog that was fun, playful, energetic, and could just do whatever the family wanted. No issues with new people, old people, children, babies, and other dogs. Just a dog that loves life. I don't need him to protect me, I don't need him to defend his territory, I just need his to not have a worry in his mind and listen well. Now, I got lucky and got exactly that (from a breeder that is so far below where Kira came from). Trust me...no sieger champions or even challengers in my boy's lines. Anthony is just trying to get through these issues to get to the dog he wanted, and I don't think they are such huge issues, they just need to be worked on. We're not talking about the next world schutzhund champion, or westminster champion, just a normal family pet.


----------



## Freestep

Anthony8858 said:


> If that were 100% true, then my Kira's strong pedigree should've solved all her problems.
> 
> Her father is Remo, who happens to be World Seiger 2011, and her mom is a 2009 National Seiger winner. I'd say they have decent credentials.
> 
> Feel free:
> 
> IKira Von Wilhendorf - German Shepherd Dog


What makes you think this pedigree is "strong"?


----------



## Mrs.K

Anthony8858 said:


> Understood. Bubble not burst.. Probably part of the problem.


Anthony, here is my advise. 

The kind of control that you seem to want can be achieved. If you have the resources and means to do so. Find the next Schutzhund Club. 
Do what so many people with these kind of dogs do in Germany. Get the Schutzhund type of obedience on the dog.

If she is food driven it makes your life a heck of a lot easier. Just because she's Showline, and has nerve issues, doesn't mean she doesn't have a ball or food drive. There are still a lot of decent dogs out there. 

Get enrolled with the Club, train Obedience. A lot of these dogs also enjoy tracking. I guarantee you that you will learn to read your dog. With a decent trainer (and most of these trainers have a good amount of experience) can help you get these issues under control. 

A well trained Showline with thin nerves, may never appear to have an issue because of the training that was put on them. It gives you the peace of mind and Kira the type of training you want on her and it gives her a good amount of confidence too. 

There is a distinct difference between the AKC training and the Competition Obedience type training. If you are determined and willed to put that time into her, you WILL have the amount of control on your dog, if she is conditioned a certain way she will also respond to your kids and wife.

She is 13 months old. It's the perfect age because now you can actually work her without having the attention span of a Squirrel because she's no longer a puppy. 

CONDITIONING, CONDITIONING, CONDITIONING!




> Mrs. K...don't know if you read the chihuahua story but the chihuahua walked in with the owner and Anthony's younger daughter. So it wasn't sneaking onto the territory (that was a different thread). My assumption would be that if a family member walks in with new people, the new people are clearly okay and allowed to be there. Now...if the chihuahua roams and goes onto their lawn and Kira is in the yard off-leash for some reason, she can do whatever is necessary to get that dog off (that's just instinct). Sadly even that kind of situation will cause problems in the neighborhood. Kira has a great pedigree, she should be an excellent example of our breed, the father was world sieger, and I'm sure the mother is no slouch as well. She has issues that have to do with the expectations of a dog in normal day to day society.


Didn't read it. Thanks for letting me know.


----------



## selzer

The process of training, really training, not just going to obedience classes, but learning the dog, training, the dog, that is where bonding and trust/confidence comes. It does not happen overnight, and while you can definitely pass in six-eight weeks, it doesn't mean she is done. If you are going to obedience classes, then work on a title. If you are good at the novice level, start working on open. While it is not the title, it is the journey, sometimes, if you just go to classes, you limit yourself to her going only so far, because that is all you want or need. 

Increase your stays, in distance and in time. Train a down on recall. Train an emergency down. 

When you have been working with the dog, and you realize your dog is getting near her threshold, you can give her a command, and then suddenly, you have a dog that goes from "uh-oh, do I need to get him out of here, this is scary, what should I do, should I bark, should I chase him, should I ..." to a dog that is "SIT, yes, I know SIT, that's my person, he says SIT, he's got it covered. I don't have to worry, because I know SIT." I know dogs don't think exactly like that. But too often, we wait until a dog fails and then correct them for doing the wrong thing, which in some cases is not exactly fair, and in most cases isn't helpful at all. If we tell the dog what we want them to do, and they do it, we can praise them, and that builds their confidence. That will have them looking to you when they are uncertain about something.


----------



## Anthony8858

Freestep said:


> What makes you think this pedigree is "strong"?


Depends on what type of dog you want, and what you consider strong.

Have you ever seen her mother in action? I have. I've heard nothing but wonderful stories about her bite work

I was floored by the display from her grandfather and 4x Seiger, TeeJay. Amazing dog.

Seemed strong to me.

What is strong? 
Different strokes for different folks.

Maybe I wouldn't want a high strung, high energy working line dog. From what I read, they can be more reactive than showlines.


----------



## selzer

Anthony8858 said:


> Depends on what type of dog you want, and what you consider strong.
> 
> Have you ever seen her mother in action? I have. I've heard nothing but wonderful stories about her bite work
> 
> I was floored by the display from her grandfather and 4x Seiger, TeeJay. Amazing dog.
> 
> Seemed strong to me.
> 
> What is strong?
> Different strokes for sifferent folks.
> 
> Maybe I wouldn't want a high strung, high energy working line dog. From what I read, they can be more reactive than showlines.


Let's not make this a thread about which lines are better, they ALL have issues, and I know that they started it.


----------



## Mrs.K

Anthony, this is a dog that is related to yours through Yasko vom Farbenspiel. He's scored a V in the IPO3, he's scored a V1 at the BSZS 2011, he also is a SAR dog. 

Not all Showlines are bad dogs. Schutzhund - Xander von Fidelius Drago

Take this as an example and make something of it. Give your dog work. Work with your dog, include the family and make it a family project. If you believe you have a good dog on your hands, put that dog to work and train her. Get into some serious obedience training and serious obedience training IS INTENSE! It will tire her out and you get to know yourself and your dog as a handler team.


----------



## Anthony8858

selzer said:


> Let's not make this a thread about which lines are better, they ALL have issues, and *I know that they started it*.


I only addressed the comment.


----------



## Anthony8858

martemchik said:


> I find that there is a fine line between "protective GSD" and "reactive GSD." I feel like some people don't want to teach their dog to stay calm in situations in case that one time there is danger and the dog doesn't react. Sadly, this is exactly what Carmen is talking about. This has to do with nerve and temperament. You shouldn't have to teach your dog to stay down when people come in because the dog is running at them and barking. It should just be a natural reaction depending on how everyone else is reacting at the time.
> 
> Here is an example...I live in a second floor apartment that has a private entrance. You walk in, and go straight up stairs to our living room. My dog usually greets people at the top of the stairs. We've never had anyone over that was a danger, or freaked us out, but his reaction is easily seen by his tail. If its someone he knows/seen a lot, the tail starts wagging as soon as they walk in, if its someone new (usually we let those people in) he doesn't wag as much, but he comes down to investigate and greet.
> 
> So...although I would definitely recommend teaching Kira a better way to greet people (work with her with treats and corrections when she does things like that). I don't think you're too worried about security (I'm not) and you just want her to be a sociable dog that you don't have to worry about. She seems to be an adolescent girl with some problems, problems that most dogs have in some way or another. If you have time, go back to obedience class, start agility, do something that will give her more confidence and give her an outlet for her energy.
> 
> *Mrs. K...don't know if you read the chihuahua story but the chihuahua walked in with the owner and Anthony's younger daughter. So it wasn't sneaking onto the territory (that was a different thread).* My assumption would be that if a family member walks in with new people, the new people are clearly okay and allowed to be there. Now...if the chihuahua roams and goes onto their lawn and Kira is in the yard off-leash for some reason, she can do whatever is necessary to get that dog off (that's just instinct). Sadly even that kind of situation will cause problems in the neighborhood. Kira has a great pedigree, she should be an excellent example of our breed, the father was world sieger, and I'm sure the mother is no slouch as well. She has issues that have to do with the expectations of a dog in normal day to day society.
> 
> I think my goal for a GSD is the same as Anthony's. I wanted a dog that was fun, playful, energetic, and could just do whatever the family wanted. No issues with new people, old people, children, babies, and other dogs. Just a dog that loves life. I don't need him to protect me, I don't need him to defend his territory, I just need his to not have a worry in his mind and listen well. Now, I got lucky and got exactly that (from a breeder that is so far below where Kira came from). Trust me...no sieger champions or even challengers in my boy's lines. Anthony is just trying to get through these issues to get to the dog he wanted, and I don't think they are such huge issues, they just need to be worked on. We're not talking about the next world schutzhund champion, or westminster champion, just a normal family pet.


That's not the way it happened. My 8 year old daughter came in. Front door was still open. A few moments later, the Chi walked in with the owner lagging behind. 
The Chi was litteraly walking into my home unattended.


----------



## Freestep

Anthony8858 said:


> Seemed strong to me.


I know it does. When you are new to GSDs, all the titles and everything are super impressive. When you first see bitework, it is super impressive no matter what line of dog is doing it.

As another poster mentioned, there is a ton of politics in conformation, even in Germany, and the show world is rife with corruption. Just because a dog has a title, it does not necessarily follow that the temperament is exemplary. Training can cover up a lot of things too.

Ask the experts whether Kira's pedigree would be an example of a "strong" pedigree. And by "strong", I mean temperament. Confident, solid, stable temperament. Not high-strung or reactive.



Mrs. K said:


> There is so much corruption in the Showline world it's not funny. I wouldn't be surprised if the Worldsieger was already selected before the show.
> There are MILLIONS of dollars at stake and it's a well known secret whats going on in the German Showline world.
> 
> Just because she's got champion parents doesn't mean she's got stable nerves, confidence or courage because that is NOT what these dogs are selected for.
> 
> I don't even have to look at the pedigree and I can tell you right off the bat that there are probably several red flags in it and that your dog has probably dogs in her pedigree that are weak nerved and selected for their looks and how they pass on that looks but not well known for their stability and strong nerves...


----------



## Anthony8858

Mrs.K said:


> Anthony, this is a dog that is related to yours through Yasko vom Farbenspiel. He's scored a V in the IPO3, he's scored a V1 at the BSZS 2011, he also is a SAR dog.
> 
> Not all Showlines are bad dogs. Schutzhund - Xander von Fidelius Drago
> 
> Take this as an example and make something of it. Give your dog work. Work with your dog, include the family and make it a family project. If you believe you have a good dog on your hands, put that dog to work and train her. Get into some serious obedience training and serious obedience training IS INTENSE! It will tire her out and you get to know yourself and your dog as a handler team.


The saddest part of all this?.....
I keep in touch with some of Kira's siblings. A few of them are doing a fine job in their Shutzhund training. I see them in action, and I feel as if I've deprived Kira of that privilege.

That's an entirely different thread.


----------



## Mrs.K

Anthony8858 said:


> The saddest part of all this?.....
> I keep in touch with some of Kira's siblings. A few of them are doing a fine job in their Shutzhund training. I see them in action, and I feel as if I've deprived Kira of that privilege.
> 
> That's an entirely different thread.


I don't think it is. 

Seriously, most of your issues can and will be solved with some proper training. It is you taking control over the situation. I do not think that Kira is a bad dog. I watched all your videos with Kira. 

Do it! She is not to old. 13 months is a good age to start working her intensively. Also, these trainers are right there and give you a proper analysis and diagnosis of the dog. All we do is giving you an internet diagnosis without seeing the dog and the situation for ourselves. So go, get in touch with those folks and get that training on her


----------



## Anthony8858

Mrs.K said:


> I don't think it is.
> 
> Seriously, most of your issues can and will be solved with some proper training. It is you taking control over the situation. I do not think that Kira is a bad dog. I watched all your videos with Kira.
> 
> Do it! She is not to old. 13 months is a good age to start working her intensively.


No places remotely close to here, with an intense program.
Not sure what it is I'm looking for.

Shutzhund clubs?
Agility clubs?

Open to suggestions.
I'm in Staten Island, NY


----------



## Mrs.K

Anthony8858 said:


> No places remotely close to here, with an intense program.
> Not sure what it is I'm looking for.
> 
> Shutzhund clubs?
> Agility clubs?
> 
> Open to suggestions.
> I'm in Staten Island, NY


Here is a list of NY. USA Clubs - New England
Also check the New Jersey list, they might actually be closer to you. 

I'm driving two hours to get training, for SAR even three to four. 

This is the whole New England Region
USA Clubs - New England


----------



## Anthony8858

Mrs.K said:


> Here is a list of NY. USA Clubs - New England
> Also check the New Jersey list, they might actually be closer to you.
> 
> I'm driving two hours to get training, for SAR even three to four.
> 
> This is the whole New England Region
> USA Clubs - New England


 
How often do you attend class?


----------



## Lucy Dog

Anthony8858 said:


> No places remotely close to here, with an intense program.
> Not sure what it is I'm looking for.
> 
> Shutzhund clubs?
> Agility clubs?
> 
> Open to suggestions.
> I'm in Staten Island, NY


Anthony... there's one right over the throggs neck bridge by Hofstra. I believe a few members here are members of that club. I know it's not in your backyard, but still close enough if you really wanted to give it a shot.

NY Schutzhund Club

If you don't want to do schutzhund, I'm sure there are plenty of training centers near you that do agility, obedience, etc. I'm right on the westchester/fairfield border and I can think of 3 or 4 big ones near me right of the top my head. Both Stamford and White plains have very nice facilities. They're all over.


----------



## Anthony8858

Lucy Dog said:


> Anthony... there's one right over the throggs neck bridge by Hofstra. I believe a few members here are members of that club. I know it's not in your backyard, but still close enough if you really wanted to give it a shot.
> 
> NY Schutzhund Club
> 
> If you don't want to do schutzhund, I'm sure there are plenty of training centers near you that do agility, obedience, etc. I'm right on the westchester/fairfield border and I can think of 3 or 4 big ones near me right of the top my head. Both Stamford and White plains have very nice facilities. They're all over.


The key for me is how often I'd have to attend classes, to get what's best for Kira. It's not feasible for me to expect to do this a couple or few days a weeks.

*After this thread today, I'm afraid I'd walk into a lynch mob waiting for me at the front entrance.*


----------



## Mrs.K

Anthony8858 said:


> The key for me is how often I'd have to attend classes, to get what's best for Kira. It's not feasible for me to expect to do this a couple or few days a weeks.
> 
> *After this thread today, I'm afraid I'd walk into a lynch mob waiting for me at the front entrance.*


Anthony, look. You do not need more than a couple of days per week. Once or twice a week of training is okay. They WILL give you the tools to work at home, the key is CONSISTENCY on a long term basis and that is what these clubs can give you.


----------



## onyx'girl

Classes are just part of it, you have to daily train if you want to progress. I train once a week with my club and go to private lessons where we work on certain things. Then I train almost daily to reenforce what we're working on.


----------



## selzer

You go once a week, and then you take it home with you and every day you give her a short training session, or two short training sessions. 

I think the key is not to think you are done when you complete a six week course. We can continue to train our dogs until they are geriatric. No it is not necessary for basic manners and obedience, but people who are really into their dogs, often find that their class time with the dog is something that both dog and owner get a whole lot out of. You can always find more and better stuff to teach a willing dog.


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## bocron

My daughter and I spent a few hours last Saturday at Petsmart with a few dogs, including the 10yo bomb proof dog. We never completely quit training.


----------



## Good_Karma

I'm way late to this party, and it sounds like you've gotten a ton of advice from some of the best minds on this forum, so it seem silly for me to add my 2 cents but here goes.

My dogs, both of them, would react the same way to the appearance of a stranger on the property. They would run up to and bark at someone coming into my house too. And not only that, my dogs will bark when people they know come onto the property, or into the house. Last week when I came home from a bike ride, guess who ran up barking at me? 

My problem with the dogs barking stems from me being a pretty clueless dog owner (at least at first, I'd like to think I have learned) and the fact that we rarely get visitors. You, on the other hand, have lots of visitors by the sounds of it and therefore you have a ton of training opportunities. What I would do if I wanted to work through this issue of barking at strangers (or non-pack members since you say some of these people are known to Kira) is to try to make each and every experience a positive one.

Can you get your visitors to pre-load their pockets with treats before they come over? Immediately upon seeing Kira, have them toss some treats down for her, even if they have already been at your house for a while but in a different room or something. And have them give her the treats even if she is barking at them. It might sound like they are rewarding the fear, but you are just trying to change the tone of the interaction from one of fear (and has she ever gotten scolded for this barking? because that probably enhances the negative connotations she has of visitors coming) to one of positivity. You can also reward the behavior of Kira stopping barking, if and when she does.

I'm a big fan of treats (it helps that I have a couple of chow hounds) and their effect on stressful situations. It turns "people who scare me" into "people who might have food!" and with a LOT of work (and dreadfully slow progress I must admit) you can slowly change Kira's reaction from fear to at least a couple short barks and then acceptance.

Oh, and I want one of Carmen's dogs!


----------



## phgsd

I think you need to come herding  Our club is about an hour and a half away in NJ - HGH Club Northeast - Knowlton, NJ
There are also lots of Schh clubs in the area.


----------



## Mrs.K

phgsd said:


> I think you need to come herding  Our club is about an hour and a half away in NJ - HGH Club Northeast - Knowlton, NJ
> There are also lots of Schh clubs in the area.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## mebully21

to the OP- you are continously setting up your dog to fail ... every "scenerio" every "fake attack" video , every time you do something that you think isnt harmful IS HARMFUL to your dog... you are continously ignoring the excellent advise being given and you are continously setting up your dog to fail...you continously put her in bad situations to try to analyze her behavior- just STOP.. either get a behaviorist in or find her a home where she wont be subjected to be put in bad situations and be confused...

I feel sorry for Kira, she doesnt deserve this and should something happen it will be blamed on her when its really YOUR fault...


----------



## llombardo

mebully21 said:


> either get a behaviorist in or find her a home where she wont be subjected to be put in bad situations and be confused...
> 
> I feel sorry for Kira, she doesnt deserve this and should something happen it will be blamed on her when its really YOUR fault...


I have to disagree and point out that this is a little harsh and uncalled for IMO


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## mebully21

i fully stand behind my post.. he is setting the dog up to fail over and over.. he allows her to charge people, then corrects.. he tells the dog to go after his wife (he was joking i know but its still bad to do), the dog has weak nerves, and he is not helping the situatiob.. even to suggesting he was going to set her up to video tape her behavior- again, setting the dog up to fail
.. he is giving mixed messages to her .. 

just because the other littermates are fine doesnt mean every dog in that litter has strong nerves, kira obviously doesnt have solid nerves.

now, its VERY possible its all the owner... some dogs with a different owner will act different.. its very possible .

i dont sugarcoat. the OP needs to step back and STOP and THINK with this dog before he acts... before he commands her to go after the wifes ankes (that he thought was a joke and funny . which to some it is, but with a dog with weak nerves its a bad idea to allow the dog to nip)


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## llombardo

mebully21 said:


> i fully stand behind my post.. he is setting the dog up to fail over and over.. he allows her to charge people, then corrects.. he tells the dog to go after his wife (he was joking i know but its still bad to do), the dog has weak nerves, and he is not helping the situatiob.. even to suggesting he was going to set her up to video tape her behavior- again, setting the dog up to fail
> .. he is giving mixed messages to her ..
> 
> just because the other littermates are fine doesnt mean every dog in that litter has strong nerves, kira obviously doesnt have solid nerves.
> 
> now, its VERY possible its all the owner... some dogs with a different owner will act different.. its very possible .
> 
> i dont sugarcoat. the OP needs to step back and STOP and THINK with this dog before he acts... before he commands her to go after the wifes ankes (that he thought was a joke and funny . which to some it is, but with a dog with weak nerves its a bad idea to allow the dog to nip)


Besides this video, what else has the OP done in your opinion? He listed different scenarios in his home that Kira reacted to. This is a female that is headed for maturity. The only thing that is different with her then any dog that has strong nerves is that she barks as she is going forward, then sniffs, and is fine. If she didn't bark but approached people in a confident silent manner, would that make for a strong nerved dog? She listens to commands instantly and like the OP states all of this happens in the home, HER home. I would never walk into someone house or suddenly appear without making it known if they had a GSD. I have seen the OP ask tons of questions, ask for advice, and follow that advice. Pictures and videos are posted of this dog with other dogs in different settings with no problems. The dog looks happy from what I can see. The OP just needs to fine tune how she reacts in the house and teach her that its okay for these people to be there, at the same time the kids need to help the OP out, so that no one gets hurt during the training process. Since I have joined I have seen nothing but the OP working with this dog and trying their best to be a good owner.


----------



## NancyJ

This has really taken on a life of its own.

I think the idea of getting out once a week with some other knowledgeable dog folks who can actually see Kira in person and help is wonderful. It sounds Kira is doing well outside the home but look at all the socialization she has had in that context to build her confidence.

Also the suggestions for extra socializing in the home as it was proposed and with every possible permutation. kids popping out of rooms. wrestling. laughing giggling, over time. all is good and wonderful.

With three daughters and a wife it is hard to imagine there is not going to be some push back if Anthony tries to get out and do too many more "dog things" ...may be maybe not a consideration........


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## Mrs.K

From what it sounds she may not even need more socialization. I think what that dog needs is a break and a place to retreat to from the crazyness. It sounds like there is a lot of traffic going in and out of the house. Give her a break and let her rest in a crate for an hour or two. That can do wonders, especially if a dog is a little on the insecure side. Just take her out of the picture if she gets a little too excited and concerned.


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## chelle

Mrs.K said:


> What bugs me a bit is that the sole attention is kept on Kira.
> 
> Kira does this, Kira does that, she has this issue she has that issue, it's Kira that is the problem.
> 
> We all know that 95% of the time the issue lies on the other end of the leash.
> 
> Her behavior is not really surprising to me. Right now the problem is that he's over-analyzing everything she does and expects a problem to arise because he's made BONKERS about her "fear aggression".
> 
> You can't do this, you shouldn't do that, you need to be on top of that.
> 
> We put FEAR into this man and if he fears her acting out every time, he tenses up, his body language changes and he's no longer free. He may not even realize he's doing it. It's mainly happening subconscious.
> 
> However, what I'm trying to say is by trying to help him "manage" his "oh so fear aggressive" dog we might have changed the relationship of him to the dog and that is something he has to get under control.
> 
> If he starts and continues and microanalyses everything she does and literally looks for aggression in anything and everything it's just as dangerous as not taking it seriously at all. Because she will no longer able to rely on him and will take charge over the situation which makes things worse than they actually are.


Best post on the thread.



Jack's Dad said:


> That's why I started with, that it wasn't directly related to Kira.
> 
> I've seen it on many threads. Dog barks it must be afraid.
> I think dog barks it must be a dog.






Anthony8858 said:


> *After this thread today, I'm afraid I'd walk into a lynch mob waiting for me at the front entrance.*


I don't blame ya. Anthony, you've taken a lot of guff in the time I've seen you post here. You are always super gracious and don't react even when spoke to in a very harsh way. I think you are doing a tremendous job with Kira. :wub:

You've gotten a ton of advice and I just want to chime in with support for training for the visitors. I've had to work that here and it is hard, since I don't get a lot of visitors. One of my dogs has had a lot of obedience work and it has *really* helped. I can't recommend it enough. It isn't only about controlling the dog (putting them in a down or something,) but that the dog is looking to you for the command, for the guidance and is less inclined to feel she/he has to be "in control" of whatever new situation. It takes the edge off for the dog. He doesn't have to be all frantic -- he just needs to know I'm controlling the situation and him. Hope that makes sense? 

The nerve issue -- yeah. Well the guy I'm talking about is not strong nerved and obedience work has given him (and ME) confidence to deal with whatever oddity that pops up. The UPS guy, mailman, odd person where they're not supposed to be.. or lately... young boys smoking pot in my back field. 

Probably being pretty elementary, but the LAT thing is great for this, too.

At the end of the day, I've found the two WGSD mixes I have are very territorial of home, no matter what I do. They just are. In our case, as I said before, I don't have many visitors, but the ones I do have know there is a certain "procedure" we go thru to allow people in. The humans approach and give me a moment to get the dogs to sit. They come in the gate, there is another pause if the boys do not behave properly. 

Anyway, I think some more training work would be super beneficial. Just starting with someone to knock at the door and immediately going into LAT or place or something.

As far as the Chi thing? What dog wouldn't have been caught off guard with that??


----------



## doggiedad

a few months ago didn't Kira lunge at a little girl
in your home, what happened with your grandson
when he was in your yard? now you have the current 
incidents. maybe you should fine a behaviorist/trainer.
good luck.


----------



## angryrainbow

The last time I looked at this thread, it was 4 pages long. I'm really curious as to the almost 10 new pages.

OP. The advice people say about the dog feeding off you-- always remember that. I was just doing an off-leash walk down a very deserted dirt road. It's my friend's property that I have permission to be on, but a strange car came rolling up behind us and I got anxious.. As soon as I got anxious my dog came right to my side, with hackles up and on alert. Which in turn made me more anxious, but it was just a couple of boys who got lost, supposedly. Or the big GSD at my side getting gruffy made them think to take a detour.. Who knows.

I think your willingness to come here and learn is a great thing and I hope you and Kira figure this out and make lots of progress in the near future.


----------



## carmspack

Remember the title of this active thread? "I think many of you may be right about Kira's aggression tendency"

and you said with concern that "her actions are escalating".

Then for the rest of the thread you are battling with people who point out that this dog is insecure , that her aggression is fear based , contradicting your own thread title .
When we were introduced to Kira the issues had to do with the dog park , her reluctance to go play , she, playing the shrinking violet , hiding under the table . Later when she had been with you for a while she would fly past you and head for the exits . 

She wants to have a buffer around her to allow her to avoid . I don't believe she is a confrontational animal seaking fights . I think she wants relief from conflict and pressure and her threshold in that perception of pressure or stress is low . 

In your HOUSEHOLD there is limited space to retreat , feeling cornered - so she goes forward to drive away the 'threat' . Pressure doesn't have to be an order to perform , it can be pressure to be friendly .

Also , dogs , like this, tend to be super sensitive to environment and to "handler" and if that handler is frustrated , or displeased , that can't be hidden from the dog , who takes it to heart, because things are wrong - everything is falling apart .

At peak hours of household traffic I would put her in a "safe harbour" , whether a comfy crate in a private corner or room , or outside in a spacious kennel for her to enjoy without harrassment .

Then when the house is sane again bring her out and do something rewarding to her -- 

She needs to be confident in you . Stabilizing force. 

any thoughts on this


----------



## Mrs.K

> any thoughts on this


Agreed. Just like I said in my last post. In her case, I wouldn't do more socializing in a high traffic home, instead, I'd take her out of the picture and give her a place to retreat until the craziness is over. 
That is what I used to do with my boy when it got too much for him. Putting them away when they get too anxious is the best thing you can do. All you have to do is spot that moment where they are about to go over threshold and take them out.


----------



## sparra

Anthony8858 said:


> *After this thread today, I'm afraid I'd walk into a lynch mob waiting for me at the front entrance.*


Oh come on!!!!

I have just read through this whole thread (there's 30 minutes of my life I won't get back again) and STILL have no idea what the OP wants to get out of it....there have been great explanations and excellent advice given


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## carmspack

*After this thread today, I'm afraid I'd walk into a lynch mob waiting for me at the front entrance *

lol , Anthony !!! be confident . How does that set an example for your dog?


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## Anthony8858

I have to be honest...

This was an ugly thread., and I'm not sure what I'm feeling today.

I read the entire thread again, and looking back, I feel as if maybe I should not have gotten Kira in the first place. 
She deserves more than what she has here, and I also feel as if I've contributed to her behavioral patterns. My so-called training is inadequate to say the least, and I obviously lack the knowledge and skills to raise a dog of this caliber.

I apologize if my thread offended anyone. 

I've learned a great deal from this site, and would like to thank you all for taking the time walk me through Kira's first year. It's been a great experience for both of us.


----------



## Blanketback

There isn't a single one of us who hasn't felt over our heads at times. The more experienced you are, the more you know it's a passing frustration and things WILL get better. Chin up, Anthony


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Anthony - this thread is certainly different. I had a hard time following it as it was like being in the mind of Sybil. So many voices! 

I'd say go out and train for some fun. 
*How to Choose a Dog Trainer*

*Dog Trainer Search*

*Finding Help - Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers*

*Find a Great Dog Trainer | Karen Pryor Academy*

Peaceable Paws 



Think of a dog like a liquid - they can expand to the size of their containers. If you have a strong nerved dog, you can let them have a bigger container because they still need one, but are able to discern and make better choices on their own. A weaker dog needs a smaller container - stronger walls (you) - less choices and more controls to be set up for success because they typically do not choose good things on their own. So for my dogs, I leash and watch, shape and reinforce and as they show that they can handle each new thing - able to reproduce the behavior consistently - they get a new thing to try, but again, leash, watch, shape, reinforce. 



Find something enjoyable to do with her that you feel confident doing. I was not comfortable doing rally and my weak (very) nerved girl turned inside out because I was unable to help her because I couldn't help myself (left, right, blah blah blah - I can't do that!). Might take a few private lessons to get to the point of being able to lead. That's okay!


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## NancyJ

I think you feel too low about your own caliber and too high about your dog's

She has some genetic nerve issues [based on all you have said, but none of us has actually seen her]. Many of us have been there with one dog or another-no shame in that. A dog with good nerve and confidence "bred in" hardly needs any socialization--one with a weaker temperament needs all the permutations covered and a lower stress life.

Just buck up, realize it, don't push her past her limits, and enjoy her.

She has a much better life than many of our own dogs and you have worked through some issues with her than others in your shoes have not mastered.


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## Shade

Anthony, you've been working hard with Kira and you shouldn't feel like you let her down. There's no such thing as a perfect dog anymore then there is a perfect owner, dogs and humans don't speak the same language. We all muddle through our dogs problems the best we can 

Honestly I would find a behaviorist to come to your house and assess her. That can be a major help and will hopefully give you some tools which you can use


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## Blanketback

Sort of off topic, but still has bearing - how much exercise does she get?


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## Freestep

Anthony8858 said:


> I read the entire thread again, and looking back, I feel as if maybe I should not have gotten Kira in the first place.
> She deserves more than what she has here, and I also feel as if I've contributed to her behavioral patterns. My so-called training is inadequate to say the least, and I obviously lack the knowledge and skills to raise a dog of this caliber.


EVERYONE has issues with their dogs. You are overanalyzing Kira's issues and blowing them out of proportion. No dog is perfect, or no one would need to socialize, train, and manage their dogs. You are no different than anyone else here. This is your first GSD, if not your first dog, yes? It's a learning curve.

Of course you have contributed to behavioral patterns. Get off your cross and join the club. 

You have a nice dog, and you have done a great job socializing her and dealing with issues as they come up. Still, your dog is not perfect and neither are you. I'd say you are better than the average owner, you have a pretty typical GSD with typical GSD issues, there is no need to feel inadequate, just take the good advice you've gotten here and stop getting defensive!

I know you like to think that, because of her pedigree and price, she must be a "perfect" dog, and that you messed her up somehow. That is not true. Temperament is temperament, and you cannot change it, you have to work with it.

Find a trainer or behaviorist to help you get through the issues. In the meantime, I agree with the others who said to give Kira a bit of a break. Give her a safe spot away from the traffic in the household, so she can relax and not feel like she has to take everything into her own paws. She's had plenty of socializing, now allow her to take a back seat while you keep control of the household.


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## Mrs.K

> Originally Posted by *Anthony8858*
> _
> I read the entire thread again, and looking back, I feel as if maybe I should not have gotten Kira in the first place.
> She deserves more than what she has here, and I also feel as if I've contributed to her behavioral patterns. My so-called training is inadequate to say the least, and I obviously lack the knowledge and skills to raise a dog of this caliber._


Anthony, 

we are all having the same issues one or the other way.

We all contribute to our dogs behavioral patterns. None of us is immune to that and you know what, she is not a bad dog. Just stop pitying yourself and get to work 

You don't lack the knowledge and skills. Even experienced people like Cliff and Carmen or others, never stop learning. Every day is a learning experience and everything you learn is another tool in your box. 

Neither of us was born experienced. We all have our issues. 

Just recently one of my girls broke out of her crate because she saw and heard the other girl do bitework. All the crate games went out the window. So the positive only training is just not enough in her case and I have to start proofing her off in these situations and if I have to, use pressure on the dog. 

See, neither of us is perfect. Every single one of us had stuff happen with their dogs. Every single one of us has a living creatures and sometimes we just can't predict what they are going to do next. 

I guarantee you, there is no such thing as the perfect dog. 

We all had our dogs bark at other dogs, at people, had the leash slipped through our fingers, a dog that broke out of a crate or kennel, a dog fight, sick dogs, injured dogs, worried dogs, dogs that get anxious, excited etc.

It comes with dogs. They are not machines. So we are all in the same boat. 

And even though some people put a lot of emphasize on genes and rock solid nerves, believe me, you will have issues with these dogs as well, not the same issues that you have with a thin nerved dog but other issues. 

There is no such thing as raising a dog and not having any kind or form of issues at all because it's a living, breathing, bleeding being.


----------



## katdog5911

Blanketback said:


> It's been my experience that the dogs that DON'T bark are the ones to inflict a bite, so I don't want to extinguish that very important form of communication (barking) from them.


Don't know if this is always the case but my son's dog would not bother barking much if someone just came into his house. He would just bite. And my newfie mix who is DA, does not bark if a dog comes close to sniff....he just lets off a rumbly sound and bites. There is something to be said about the quote "his bark is worse than his bite." Definitely prefer the bark....


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## selzer

Anthony, it is like marriage, the first ten years are the hardest. 

But really the toughest year, is year 1, at least for dogs. Year two will be a bit easier, she will grow more confident, and you will learn her, that is, you will learn to be aware of the environment and make slight adjustments that will be so subtle, and it will become second nature, that by year three, it will be darn right easy. Partly due to training, partly due to the work she has had with you, partly because she has matured, and partly because of how she has trained you. 

I have a nine month old girl right now that I was ready to GIVE to our trainer last night. I offered (only half-joking) and she refused, lol! I am confident that by this time next year, I will wonder what the heck I was thinking. 

I will tell you this too. Cujo, my parents dog, came to live with my Mom and Dad when he was 14 weeks old. No training classes. No socialization, though their house does have more people in and out than mine for sure. He STILL barks at the guys and whines for girls. People do come right in to my parents. Cujo does recognize them, and he still barks, but we don't have to drag him away or anything. He did not meet babies until my sister brought hers home for the first time nearly five years ago. 

He was downright scary. But Mom put up a pet yard (for the babies) in the living room, and we kept subjecting the poor things to this large, energetic 2 year old dog with no manners, and no socialization. 

At Christmas time, and one other time he snapped at one of the kids for falling/jumping on him. The children were rebuked/explained to them that they hurt the dog. He has barked at children, he has knocked them down and pinned them with his giant paw. 

My sister kept bringing the kids over, and they trained Cujo how to act around little ones. Now when my little sister brings her 1 and 2 year old, he is careful, and he is very good. Actually, after that first year, he has been awesome with kids. He lets them follow him, hand on his butt, he will wait for them, turning his head back, he gets all excited when they come. He has even let them cover him up with a blanket-tent they were playing with -- the older girls. And the girls are all excited about seeing Cujo. It will be hard when he goes. 

It did not happen over night. It was not written in his genes. I would be over there hanging on to the dog while the kids were running around. But I had to go home at some point, and the next day (they would stay over-night a couple of times a year), I would come over and the dog seemed just fine without my death grip. 

It is scary, because if he bites one of those kids, my mother will not hesitate to have him put down. They, and particularly she, loves him dearly, but she is convinced that he will not bite them. And he hasn't. But 98% of the time Cujo is around only people that he knows, all of them older adults. So he is generally unexposed to running, screaming kids. 

When he was 10 months old, he was already over-sized, big, energetic, barky. Dad was working, and Mom was recovering from a bowel surgery, and the home health nurse had to come in and change the dressings. Cujo let her come right on in, and work on Mom. Mom could not have stopped him if he decided to be more assertive or aggressive. 

I got a lot of guff for giving him to my parents. But that noise has silenced now. Even my Dad takes him out and walks him, and he has had a few falls (not with the dog), and a few surgeries (bone put in his neck, two shoulder surgeries, and his gall bladder) since we have gotten Cujo. The dog does not get walked regularly, but it is pretty amazing that he gets walked at all, considering the type of surgeries my dad has been through. 

The dog is seven now. He is easy to manage, still barks at guys he knows coming in, still whines for girls, still has had no training or socialization. But even my Brother in Law that threatened to kill every dog in my kennel if he bit him, lets his one year old and two year old have access to the boy. 

My point is that there is a lot of hope. Your dog is YOUNG. It sounds like she is actually pretty normal. Build her confidence and build your trust in her through training. 

I should not say my parents' dog has no training. He is trained to sit on the rags when he comes in from outside when it is muddy. He is trained to sit and down and take the treat gently after his meals. He is trained to let Mom or Dad work the chain when he goes out. He is trained to pull my mother out of bed if necessary if he needs to go out. And he can talk quite plainly with his eyes.


----------



## Lucy Dog

jocoyn said:


> Just buck up, realize it, don't push her past her limits, and enjoy her.
> 
> She has a much better life than many of our own dogs and you have worked through some issues with her than others in your shoes have not mastered.


Completely agreed here. I think you do a great job with her. You take her out, you exercise and socialize her, and you make her part of the family and your daily life. 

None of us are perfect and most of us don't have perfectly behaved dogs. Kira has her thresholds and you need to learn to recognize them and not push her past them. 

She has her issues, but so does most of our dogs and so do most of us. Blame her genetics, blame certain things you've done, blame past experiences. It's all in the past. Figure out a plan now and do your best to execute it. Either way, I think Kira's lucky to be part of your family and I wouldn't think for a second that she should be with some other family.


----------



## bocron

Anthony, I tell my training clients that a smart breed is like having a child with ADHD. It takes much more input and work when you are raising them, but the rewards when you get to adulthood are worth it. Have you seen any of the interviews with Michael Phelps' mom or coaches? He was a total handful as a kid, but look where he ended up. 
A lab or golden puppy may be much easier to raise, but you don't get the outcome of a GSD or a Mal.


----------



## NancyJ

We all face different demons
My critter is a couple of weeks behind Kira in age

As confident as they come. No issues with other dogs, people, anything. Nothing has rattled him.

However, left to his own devices.....even after being run to the point of dropping and training multiple times a day..... 5 minutes later he WILL amuse himself. I have started giving him 2x4s to drag around in the yard.In the house we are still under constant supervision. 









GRRRR I had a great image of a destroyed aluminum broom and ripped up aluminum downspouts and photobucket is NOT cooperating.


----------



## Mrs.K

Honestly, I think all those experienced people need to buck up and talk about their mishaps. All we hear are the golden and glorious stories that nothing ever happens. Seriously? I know you don't share the bad stuff, it's bad for business but it comes with the breed and business. 

That's what I hate about that industry, they keep their mouth shut and make it seem as if they are all knowing, perfect and smell like roses. That isn't the case. Even though they may never talk about it and only talk about their successes and never mention anything bad that happens... let me use a german phrase: EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US COOKS WITH WATER! 
Meaning, they go through the same things we do. Their experience makes it easier to manage a dog but when you deal with living creatures there is no such thing as routine. **** happens to all of us. 

Bocron, I'm sure you've had your days where you thought "Please, let this week be over." 
And I'm sure so has Carmspack... and every other experienced person on this forum. 

Nobody is perfect!


----------



## Jack's Dad

jocoyn said:


> We all face different demons
> My critter is a couple of weeks behind Kira in age
> 
> As confident as they come. No issues with other dogs, people, anything. Nothing has rattled him.
> 
> However, left to his own devices.....even after being run to the point of dropping and training multiple times a day..... 5 minutes later he WILL amuse himself. I have started giving him 2x4s to drag around in the yard.In the house we are still under constant supervision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GRRRR I had a great image of a destroyed aluminum broom and ripped up aluminum downspouts and photobucket is NOT cooperating.


Wow the damage your dog and my almost a year old Zena could do together is frightening. 

Nancy, I'm glad you didn't use the word permutation again, I don't want to have to think that hard. 
Hmmm permutation, what is she talking about?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I think all those experienced people need to buck up and talk about their mishaps. All we hear are the golden and glorious stories that nothing ever happens. Seriously? I know you don't share the bad stuff, it's bad for business but it comes with the breed and business.
> 
> That's what I hate about that industry, they keep their mouth shut and make it seem as if they are all knowing, perfect and smell like roses. That isn't the case. Even though they may never talk about it and only talk about their successes and never mention anything bad that happens... let me use a german phrase: EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US COOKS WITH WATER!
> Meaning, they go through the same things we do. Their experience makes it easier to manage a dog but when you deal with living creatures there is no such thing as routine. **** happens to all of us.
> 
> Bocron, I'm sure you've had your days where you thought "Please, let this week be over."
> And I'm sure so has Carmspack... and every other experienced person on this forum.
> 
> Nobody is perfect!


Start it! Name it! Put it in training theories? I'll post...eeeyikes.


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## Blanketback

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I think all those experienced people need to buck up and talk about their mishaps.QUOTE]
> 
> Ok, here's mine for the week, and it's only Wed.
> 
> I took my 9 month old to the pet store that he's been going to for months. DH decided to bring "his" dog too, so my little guy was filled with excitement. The store has a double-door entranceway, a big echo-chamber of glass and steel. DH isn't right up there on doggie etiquette, so he barged ahead. Well, little guy has been going here for months, by himself, so he starts shrieking - and I mean really wailing - at the top of his lungs. And it's echoing into the store as DH is opening the door...and I can't believe how embarrassed I was! I cannot believe what a terrible brat my puppy was! And then I got over it, lol.


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## TrickyShepherd

Mrs.K said:


> Even though they may never talk about it and only talk about their successes and never mention anything bad that happens... let me use a german phrase: EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US COOKS WITH WATER!
> Meaning, they go through the same things we do. Their experience makes it easier to manage a dog but when you deal with living creatures there is no such thing as routine. **** happens to all of us.



Isn't that the truth!! 

I love my dogs, and they are great dogs... but there are days I want to run out of this house screaming, or times out of the house where I want to throw in the towel and give them to the next person that walks by.

Every dog I've ever owned has had an issue or some sort of challenge for me to learn from and act on. Zira is a mess of a dog: Allergies, SIBO, bad hips, random extreme fears, and what I think is some brain damage. Her socialization, training, and controlling her issues will never be done or finished. Duke is still slightly dog aggressive (was much worse when I got him in February), he is also a softer dog who is handler sensitive... training is difficult and we have to take 2x as many steps as other dogs and handlers do. He's still a little submissive, and still needs more socialization. His confidence has finally gotten better, but not 100%. Storm, is a challenge for me every single day. She's strong, confident, stubborn, and an all around bitch! Awesome puppy, and will be amazing some day.... but, at the time, she's giving me grey hairs. That's a well bred GSD, with a stable mind and nerves.... and she is STILL a handful that needs a lot of work and we still run into issues.

If we were to all think "this breed/dog is too much for me, I should never own him/her" once we hit a speed bump... then none of us would probably have our dogs... or really any dog for that matter. Can't think that way. Learn to understand your dog, and then work with her.... eventually you'll be able to get everything under control and have a wonderful, happy dog... with happy owners!

No one's perfect, no one's dog is perfect and we've all ran into some sort of issues over the years. She's a living creature, she's going to have a flaw(s). I think you have a beautiful, smart, and loving dog.... she just may need some help growing into an adult.

My only advice would be to find a trainer, get her a job, and get some suggestions from those trainers on how to deal with her in the home. I have classes 1-2 a week with Duke and Storm.... the rest is done at home. You don't need to go 4+ times a week. This is how I got Duke under control.

Also, I think without videos this all may be blown a bit out of proportion. I am sure once you post videos, there will be some more accurate information for you. Some things sounded like a normal young dog, others maybe a bit weak nerved.... but, that's hard to see with just words (as you already know). So I wouldn't take too much personally. Find a good trainer and get their opinion. Kira will be just fine once she's worked with and levels herself out.

(Remember... you are NOT a bad owner and you DO deserve your dog... She looks happy, loved, and well cared for. You are here, and trying to learn, which you have her entire life...... props to you for that. That takes a good owner that wants to learn and be the best they can for their dogs.)


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## doggerel

> (Remember... you are NOT a bad owner and you DO deserve your dog... She looks happy, loved, and well cared for. You are here, and trying to learn, which you have her entire life...... props to you for that. That takes a good owner that wants to learn and be the best they can for their dogs.)


Amen to that!


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## fuzzybunny

Love these last few posts! It's only Wednesday but Jazz has succeeded in making me look like an idiot with his behaviour twice


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## carmspack

Anthony you keep going back to Kira's world famous sire, her great pedigree, and "I obviously lack the knowledge and skills to raise a dog of this caliber."

Did you expect a dog that has a corona around her , a gift to dogdom barely touching the ground , people gasping and parting the way for you to pass.

She's a dog . Trying her best . 

She's staying with you emotionally more than you are with her . 

So she didn't meet your expectations . Does she deserve less? Absolutely not . Dogs are not accessories for our egos.

Make up your mind . Either committ to the dog or let her have a home where someone will. 

She is a good dog at heart . She is fearful. Organize her world , which should not take much , so that she blossoms . This will take time , consistency, honest appreciation of her self.

I have to constantly test and cast a critical eye on my dogs, either the ones held back for service or the ones intended as breeding partners . 
The worst person to fool is yourself .

I have resolved to not, never ever again , buy a dog from a person who does not themselves work dog. By that I mean a person has to have hands on experience not repeat what some broker in the chain of sales has told them . You don't do that , you can not evaluate pups .

We all learn . 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## katdog5911

*a picture is worth a thousand words*

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...t=a.10150331721611894.394798.743501893&type=3


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## selzer

carmspack said:


> Anthony you keep going back to Kira's world famous sire, her great pedigree, and "I obviously lack the knowledge and skills to raise a dog of this caliber."
> 
> Did you expect a dog that has a corona around her , a gift to dogdom barely touching the ground , people gasping and parting the way for you to pass.
> 
> She's a dog . Trying her best .
> 
> She's staying with you emotionally more than you are with her .
> 
> So she didn't meet your expectations . Does she deserve less? Absolutely not . Dogs are not accessories for our egos.
> 
> Make up your mind . Either committ to the dog or let her have a home where someone will.
> 
> She is a good dog at heart . She is fearful. Organize her world , which should not take much , so that she blossoms . This will take time , consistency, honest appreciation of her self.
> 
> I have to constantly test and cast a critical eye on my dogs, either the ones held back for service or the ones intended as breeding partners .
> The worst person to fool is yourself .
> 
> I have resolved to not, never ever again , buy a dog from a person who does not themselves work dog. By that I mean a person has to have hands on experience not repeat what some broker in the chain of sales has told them . You don't do that , you can not evaluate pups .
> 
> We all learn .
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com



This post is really irritating. Anthony mentioned his dog's pedigree because people were getting off on genetics and the dog is what it is. I don't think he keeps coming back to it. I don't think he expects all the dogs in the dog park to make way for her royal highness. And I don't think there is anything wrong with being proud of the puppy you bought, of its pedigree. No, we should not put down other people's dogs and compare our dogs to their dog, but we should not feel embarrassed or ashamed for having a dog with an excellent pedigree.

Having a dog with an excellent pedigree does not guaranty that the pup will be problem free. But I think we have gotten that message.

I know you have a lot to contribute, lots of knowledge, but I just have to scratch my head sometimes, when you put people down like this.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I know you have a lot to contribute, lots of knowledge, but I just have to scratch my head sometimes, when you put people down like this.


I didn't read that as a put-down. 

People who are new to the world of pedigreed dogs are often under the impression that a world-class showline pedigree somehow means you have a different "caliber" (his word) of dog. And yes, he has mentioned it several times. He's expecting something different than he would have if he'd gone to the pound and gotten a mixed-breed puppy. 

The point that I took from Carmen's post is that a pedigree doesn't change what a dog IS. And I agree. A pedigree can tell us what to reasonably expect from a dog, but is no guarantee of anything. As everyone who is "in" dogs knows, you can put the highest ranking show dogs (or highest scoring podium dogs) together and there will still be pups that aren't as good as their parents. 

A dog is still a dog no matter what her pedigree, and must be taken as she is, not as how she "should" be according to her parentage.


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## selzer

Freestep, I think this is what really made it more than just letting someone know that a dog might not live up to its parents:



carmspack said:


> Did you expect a dog that has a corona around her , a gift to dogdom barely touching the ground , people gasping and parting the way for you to pass.
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


----------



## Good_Karma

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Think of a dog like a liquid - they can expand to the size of their containers. If you have a strong nerved dog, you can let them have a bigger container because they still need one, but are able to discern and make better choices on their own. A weaker dog needs a smaller container - stronger walls (you) - less choices and more controls to be set up for success because they typically do not choose good things on their own.



Mind...BLOWN! Great analogy Jean. I love this.


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## Anthony8858

carmspack said:


> Anthony you keep going back to Kira's world famous sire, her great pedigree, and "I obviously lack the knowledge and skills to raise a dog of this caliber."
> 
> *Did you expect a dog that has a corona around her , a gift to dogdom barely touching the ground , people gasping and parting the way for you to pass.
> *
> *This comments' disgusting. You ought to be ashamed to even say something like this. I NEVER go to her pedigree, and expect anything from her. READ my OP. I gave credit to those who suspected that Kira might be developing an aggression issue out of fear. I ADMITTED not be able or QUALIFIED to recognize it initially.
> *
> She's a dog . Trying her best .
> 
> She's staying with you emotionally more than you are with her .
> *Another disgusting comment. How dare you insult me like that
> *
> So she didn't meet your expectations . Does she deserve less? Absolutely not . Dogs are not accessories for our egos.
> 
> *Never said this. I said that I was not able to meet HER needs in a quality of life.*
> Make up your mind . Either committ to the dog or let her have a home where someone will.
> 
> 
> She is a good dog at heart . She is fearful. Organize her world , which should not take much , so that she blossoms . This will take time , consistency, honest appreciation of her self.
> 
> I have to constantly test and cast a critical eye on my dogs, either the ones held back for service or the ones intended as breeding partners .
> The worst person to fool is yourself .
> 
> I have resolved to not, never ever again , buy a dog from a person who does not themselves work dog. By that I mean a person has to have hands on experience not repeat what some broker in the chain of sales has told them . You don't do that , you can not evaluate pups .
> 
> We all learn .
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


*Carmen,
The difference between YOU and the others on this board? When the thread came to an end, they all realized that NOBODY'S perfect. They were willing to post their mistakes, and share some of the bad experiences. It was a nice gesture to smooth things over. I had gotten the message. I know i made mistakes, and the people acknowledged that I knew, and were looking to "cool things off".
That wasn't good enough for you. You had to chime right in, and look for the opening for another attack. Maybe YOU need to take a step back and realize that NOT everyone is here looking for a K9 police dog mentality either. I don't care about my dog's pedigree. I already know how biased you are towards showlines. That's OK. I LOVE THE BREED OF GSD, WHETHER SL OR WL, AND SO SHOULD YOU!!!*



Freestep said:


> I didn't read that as a put-down.
> 
> People who are new to the world of pedigreed dogs are often under the impression that a world-class showline pedigree somehow means you have a different "caliber" (his word) of dog. *And yes, he has mentioned it several times. He's expecting something different than he would have if he'd gone to the pound and gotten a mixed-breed puppy*
> 
> *No I have NOT mentioned it. Feel free to do a search. I have never had higher than normal expectations because of her pedigree. The topic was raised by YOU, and I addressed it.
> Selzer suggested I drop it, and I did.
> And just to clarify the word "Caliber". I used it in a sense of GSD caliber, instead of a smaller, more manageable breed.
> Once again, making false accusations.
> Who's the REAL hypocrite around here? Ask yourself, you'd be amazed atthe response.*
> 
> The point that I took from Carmen's post is that a pedigree doesn't change what a dog IS. And I agree. A pedigree can tell us what to reasonably expect from a dog, but is no guarantee of anything. As everyone who is "in" dogs knows, you can put the highest ranking show dogs (or highest scoring podium dogs) together and there will still be pups that aren't as good as their parents.
> 
> A dog is still a dog no matter what her pedigree, and must be taken as she is, not as how she "should" be according to her parentage.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Most family companion dogs are lucky if they get an obedience session or two in their lives. 
My take after all this is to go have fun with your dog. That's what most families do.
Paralysis by analysis can drive us all insane.
It used to be easy to book a hotel or buy a TV. No more. Now we have to have endless reviews by who knows who and in the end it is just as hard or worse to make a decision.
I'd take a break and just have fun with her and at some point if you want look into agility, nose work or some other venue but she doesn't need to do anything to be good enough.
She's fine. All our dogs have something we would like to see different.
My wife actually thinks I could do some things differently.


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## Anthony8858

Jack's Dad said:


> Most family companion dogs are lucky if they get an obedience session or two in their lives.
> My take after all this is to go have fun with your dog. That's what most families do.
> Paralysis by analysis can drive us all insane.
> It used to be easy to book a hotel or buy a TV. No more. Now we have to have endless reviews by who knows who and in the end it is just as hard or worse to make a decision.
> I'd take a break and just have fun with her and at some point if you want look into agility, nose work or some other venue but she doesn't need to do anything to be good enough.
> She's fine. All our dogs have something we would like to see different.
> My wife actually thinks I could do some things differently.


I went to work today. Came home 3 hours ago.
Walked in my front door, and got a face bath from my dog, and loved every minute of it.
I took her to an open field, and played frisbee (her favorite) for over an hour. We then went to Petco, and had 10 people pet her silly.
Then I took her to the dog run, where she met her friend "Buddy". She and Buddy knocked each other around, until they drooled.
Now she's sleeping in her crate, while a bunch of wild kids run around my house.
WE had a nice day.


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## carmspack

Freestep nailed it on the head.

There isn't anything more to contribute to this thread. In one breath there is a request for help to resolve a situation which is "escalating" , in the next there is a defensive protection of the dog "Kira's strong pedigree should've solved all her problems.

Her father is Remo, who happens to be World Seiger 2011, and her mom is a 2009 National Seiger winner. I'd say they have decent credentials." In training you work with the dog , not the piece of paper -- and , once again, question about the strength of the pedigree - strong for what ? Even this issue was discussed at length in a thread where there was some thought to Kira being bred . Same discussion on the pedigree.

so over and out -- on this one (agree with Cliff)


----------



## carmspack

I have been actively helping Anthony with Kira , from the first visits to the dog park to this thread. 
She is a good dog, a beautiful dog . She needs to be understood for what she is , and accommodations made for her . Like any family member .


----------



## Anthony8858

carmspack said:


> Freestep nailed it on the head.
> 
> There isn't anything more to contribute to this thread. In one breath there is a request for help to resolve a situation which is "escalating" , in the next there is a defensive protection of the dog "Kira's strong pedigree should've solved all her problems.
> 
> *Her father is Remo, who happens to be World Seiger 2011, and her mom is a 2009 National Seiger winner. I'd say they have decent credential*s." In training you work with the dog , not the piece of paper -- and , once again, question about the strength of the pedigree - strong for what ? Even this issue was discussed at length in a thread where there was some thought to Kira being bred . Same discussion on the pedigree.
> 
> so over and out -- on this one (agree with Cliff)





carmspack said:


> I have been actively helping Anthony with Kira , from the first visits to the dog park to this thread.
> She is a good dog, a beautiful dog . She needs to be understood for what she is , and accommodations made for her . Like any family member .


Why don't you address the question prior?

Carmen, I don't like arrogance. And your arrogance is spilling over a bit too much for me.
Feel free to stay out of my threads. You can shake your head, bite your lip, whatever makes you happy.
I prefer constructive advice, not cr*p thrown in my face.
I'm sure you have wonderful dogs. You do brag about them, don't you? I guess you have an entitlement that other s don't have.

Have a nice day.
I don't like the way you speak to me. You are really p*ssing me off.


----------



## Freestep

Wow, Anthony. Take a breather. You're taking this all WAY too personally.

Don't ask for help and advice if you don't want to hear it.

We have told you time and again... you're doing a good job. You have a nice dog. Even Carmen has told you this, but you choose to focus on the negative or perceived insults.

No one is perfect.

I guess I'll stop trying to help you, because instead of accepting the helpful things in this thread and moving forward, you're choosing to be all butt-hurt about some of the comments made. Good luck with Kira.


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## Nikitta

Wow I'm glad i didn't post in this thread. /phew


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Freestep, I think this is what really made it more than just letting someone know that a dog might not live up to its parents:


I read that as hyperbole. It was kind of funny, I thought. Not meant as an attack. Oh well.


----------



## Anthony8858

Freestep said:


> Wow, Anthony. Take a breather. You're taking this all WAY too personally.
> 
> Don't ask for help and advice if you don't want to hear it.
> 
> We have told you time and again... you're doing a good job. You have a nice dog. Even Carmen has told you this, but you choose to focus on the negative or perceived insults.
> 
> No one is perfect.
> 
> I guess I'll stop trying to help you, because instead of accepting the helpful things in this thread and moving forward, you're choosing to be all butt-hurt about some of the comments made. Good luck with Kira.


Stop patting yourself on the back. You weren't so nice either.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Anthony I think you have handled everything much better than most would. Since you got Kira you have been open to all input (and not all of it was great). This thread reached an abusive point and you handled it with grace. Everyone has a line and mean sarcastic words will cross it every time. I think you were more than patient with a number of folks and you are justified in taking it personal when certain lines are crossed. 

I think you are an awesome owner and have gone above and beyond what the average population does for their dogs (granted this forum is not the average dog owner ). Enjoy Kira, she's a good dog and she is lucky to have you as an owner.


----------



## Freestep

Anthony8858 said:


> Stop patting yourself on the back. You weren't so nice either.


I read the whole thread again and I couldn't find where I was being mean. A couple times I told you to stop being defensive and be open to what others are telling you. Is that what you mean?

I realize we struck a nerve here, but try to understand that no one is attacking you. We are all trying to HELP. Otherwise we wouldn't waste our time posting in this thread. You've gotten some great advice and encouragement from people. Re-read it when you are in a less emotional state, and if you can take something two different ways, and one way makes you feel mad or bad, take it the other way. Take home the good stuff... for Kira's sake.


----------



## selzer

Freestep said:


> Wow, Anthony. Take a breather. You're taking this all WAY too personally.
> 
> Don't ask for help and advice if you don't want to hear it.
> 
> We have told you time and again... you're doing a good job. You have a nice dog. Even Carmen has told you this, but you choose to focus on the negative or perceived insults.
> 
> No one is perfect.
> 
> I guess I'll stop trying to help you, because instead of accepting the helpful things in this thread and moving forward, you're choosing to be all butt-hurt about some of the comments made. Good luck with Kira.


Of course he is taking it personally. It is hard to hear things that are negative about you. But it is worse to hear things that are negative about your kids or spouse or parents or dog. 

The thing is, that nobody here can tell him for certain whether his dog is pretty normal and he just needs to do x, y, z or stop doing a, b, c; or if the dog has some issues, and they are genetic or due to some lack of or incorrect training, exercise, socialization. 

I spent the last so many minutes looking for the thread where he wanted to breed her, and cannot find it. But all of this stuff is not abnormal to someone new to the breed. 

We should probably have a stickie: My First GSD and How That Went. 

I think sometimes we forget what it is like to have our first GSD, and certainly people like me forget what it is like to have just one. But when we are new, we post everything, we want to learn everything, we are so excited about everything. 

My guess is that Anthony might have wanted some encouragement, that his dog is still very young, and probably going through an adolescent phase, and just keep it up, step back a little and work through it. I don't think it really warrants a verdict of chronic nerve problems. Is the dog likely to be schutzhund champion? No. Can the dog be a great companion dog, great pet, earn titles, do fun stuff? No doubt about it. Can the dog become a biter? Well, they ALL can, can't they?


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## ponyfarm

Hi! I was just thinking about all your worries! Who doesnt have them with kids and dogs! Both are equally hard to train..actually kids are worse! Just wondering if Kira is your first dog...because I feel like you second guess everything..which is normal. Probably most people on this board have had many dogs...I myself have lost count thru the years. None were perfect! Well, my collie almost is...wub!

I would relax..get involved in a good dog club or two. Take her to class at least twice a week. Make a goal to show her in a rally show or such. Just for starters..something easy and fun. Work on her obedience every day..walk with her..take her to different parks..Start her in dock diving...(I realize you do much of this)

Lastly,(if you can stand my suggestions!)and most important...

I would keep a prong and drag line on her at all times, as long as she is being supervised. Then, when she does stuff you dont like, you can quickly correct her. Thats all..thats how she will learn how to fit in your family. Remember, its a process..she will backtrack and then get better and on and on..till finally she is the dog you want.!!!


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## Anthony8858

selzer said:


> Of course he is taking it personally. It is hard to hear things that are negative about you. But it is worse to hear things that are negative about your kids or spouse or parents or dog.
> 
> The thing is, that nobody here can tell him for certain whether his dog is pretty normal and he just needs to do x, y, z or stop doing a, b, c; or if the dog has some issues, and they are genetic or due to some lack of or incorrect training, exercise, socialization.
> 
> I spent the last so many minutes looking for the thread where he wanted to breed her, and cannot find it. But all of this stuff is not abnormal to someone new to the breed.
> 
> We should probably have a stickie: My First GSD and How That Went.
> 
> I think sometimes we forget what it is like to have our first GSD, and certainly people like me forget what it is like to have just one. But when we are new, we post everything, we want to learn everything, we are so excited about everything.
> 
> Yes, this is very true
> 
> My guess is that Anthony might have wanted some encouragement, that his dog is still very young, and probably going through an adolescent phase, and just keep it up, step back a little and work through it. I don't think it really warrants a verdict of chronic nerve problems. Is the dog likely to be schutzhund champion? No. Can the dog be a great companion dog, great pet, earn titles, do fun stuff? No doubt about it. Can the dog become a biter? Well, they ALL can, can't they?


It wasn't about that. When I started the thread, it was more like "hey, I guess you may have been right" "I misunderstood my dogs' actions". "How should i handle this".
I never expected to read what I read.

I've been a member here for almost a year. I feel as if I've made so many friends. Many keep in touch via Facebook, and I get many PM's where people don't want to "ruffle feathers" with their opinions.
I understand that we all share something in common, and there's plenty of experience on this board to help us all.

There was no need to back me into a corner like that. I can take 20 posts out of this thread, where everyone attempted to offer the same advice as the other. I read, and understood exactly what was being said.
Don't you think I read those posts and wondered just how right everyone was? Of course I did. It was almost an epiphany for me. It made me reflect on what I could have done differently. Isn't that what I asked for?

When the thread was unofficially over, I was happy to see everyone start to come together and admit that they too, went through their share of mistakes. That was enlightening to hear. It was getting a chuckle out of the participants, and it loosened up the thread.
Then the negatives were reintroduced, and I felt that wasn't necessary.

Sorry about the rant, and I thank you for understanding.
And YES, I do appreciate all the advice.

Oh, and BTW... Selzer.
Just to clarify about the breeding thread.
A few months back, the owner of Kira's mom asked if I'd be interested in entertaining Kira for her breeding program. Of course she didn't know much about her, but she's seen numerous pictures of her, and always complimented her beauty. I keep in touch with her breeder on a regular basis.
I asked the question about the possibility of breeding her, and was slaughtered about her "weak nerve", and how she wouldn't / shouldn't even be considered.

That's what happened. I've since had her spayed, so end of discussion.


----------



## sitstay

Anthony, I understand where you are coming from with your remark about maybe she would do better in a home where she is appreciated and worked with by someone who is up to the task. I have certainly felt like that with my own dog, tanner.

Like Kira, Tanner comes from well known and competitively successful WGSL breeding. And like Kira, he has issues. I was even told by someone on this very forum a long, long time ago that if I had a better understanding of the special needs of a highly bred dog that I wouldn't have had the problems I had with him. If I remember correctly, I was told that I was expecting my high performance sport car to perform like a family station wagon. 

I even considered it. Maybe it was true. In the end I decided that the dog didn't need anything from me that any other dog wouldn't have needed. He didn't know he was a high performance sport car, and as long as I treated him fairly, trained him and worked with him and fed him well he was as okay with me as he would be with one of those high performance owners. 

So don't feel like Kira is missing out on some special life that she is barred from because you own her. She loves you. She couldn't give a good whoopty-do if you were the man on the moon. The only thing she cares about is how you treat her, not whether you are fancy enough for her bloodlines, or if you are knowledgeable enough right out of the box to respond perfectly the first time to every big and little issue that might arise with her. 

I had to completely divorce myself from any expectation related to Tanner's breeding in order to really look at his behavior and deal with it effectively. A trainer I worked with told me I had to start looking at the dog that was standing in front of me, and only at the dog that was standing in front of me. I had to forget about his breeding and I had to stop thinking about what _should be_ happening and start considering only what _was _happening.

I think that is what Carmspack was getting out. Not that I want to speak for her! But that is how I took her comment. Maybe because I have been right where you are and have had basically the same comment directed at me! It isn't easy to do. It sounds easy, but it really isn't. However the reward is a much clearer path forward with your dog. That is how I found it to be. 

The advice to give Kira a safe place in a crate to chill during those high traffic times in your home is sound. I wouldn't put her in a different room entirely, but I would crate her in a quiet corner of the room where you are hanging out. And if you aren't already working with someone, find a trainer to guide you. I thought I was experienced in dog training until I started working with someone that was REALLY good and then I started to see how much I had been missing with my dog. I felt about two inches tall, but the good news was that I was improving!

Finding a hobby job that Tanner loved was key to working with him. For him it was herding. And then later, tracking. Find that job that Kira really, really loves and go for it. Doing something happily really does increase confidence!

Good luck. I have been where you're at. It can get better.
Sheilah


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Anthony I think any dog would be lucky to live with you and your family I think you've done a great job with Kira.

When mine do something that I'm mortified over, or surprise me in a negative way, I just deal with it and move on, I except them for what they are, work with what I've got, and always remember that someone else out there has a worse problem than whatever mine may be at the moment. 

You aren't a bad owner at all, just think of all you would have missed had Kira not come into your life, and all you would miss if she wasn't there..


----------



## Freestep

selzer said:


> My guess is that Anthony might have wanted some encouragement, that his dog is still very young, and probably going through an adolescent phase, and just keep it up, step back a little and work through it. I don't think it really warrants a verdict of chronic nerve problems. Is the dog likely to be schutzhund champion? No. Can the dog be a great companion dog, great pet, earn titles, do fun stuff? No doubt about it. Can the dog become a biter? Well, they ALL can, can't they?


Absolutely--I agree with your whole post. Did someone say the dog had "chronic nerve problems" or was going to be a biter? If so I missed it, but I have to say I'd disagree with that.

I and others have said over and over--Kira's a nice dog--a bit thin on nerves maybe, lacking in confidence--but pretty typical of a young GSD, and probably something she will get over.

I don't think anyone intended to insult Anthony or his dog.


----------



## LoveEcho

Anthony, I've been following your story with Kira for a while. While some people feel the need to misconstrue what you say, I can only imagine how awful it must feel for you for someone to tell you you're not committed to your dog. You are more committed than the vast, vast majority of dog owners out there. You have dedicated a great amount of time to learning, asking questions, and gracefully taking advice. This has all been an immense learning experience for you, I'm sure, and at the end of Kira's long, happy, much-loved life you will look back and smile, even if right now it's not the rose garden you hoped for (I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean none of us ever really know what to expect). It's plain to see how much you really, truly love your dog, and your initiative to do right by her is inspiring.


----------



## Beau

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Anthony I think you have handled everything much better than most would. Since you got Kira you have been open to all input (and not all of it was great). This thread reached an abusive point and you handled it with grace. Everyone has a line and mean sarcastic words will cross it every time. I think you were more than patient with a number of folks and you are justified in taking it personal when certain lines are crossed.
> 
> I think you are an awesome owner and have gone above and beyond what the average population does for their dogs (granted this forum is not the average dog owner ). Enjoy Kira, she's a good dog and she is lucky to have you as an owner.





> Originally Posted by *LoveEcho*
> Anthony, I've been following your story with Kira for a while. While some people feel the need to misconstrue what you say, I can only imagine how awful it must feel for you for someone to tell you you're not committed to your dog. You are more committed than the vast, vast majority of dog owners out there. You have dedicated a great amount of time to learning, asking questions, and gracefully taking advice. This has all been an immense learning experience for you, I'm sure, and at the end of Kira's long, happy, much-loved life you will look back and smile, even if right now it's not the rose garden you hoped for (I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean none of us ever really know what to expect). It's plain to see how much you really, truly love your dog, and your initiative to do right by her is inspiring.


Bravo!


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## onyx'girl

jocoyn said:


> I think you feel too low about your own caliber and too high about your dog's
> 
> She has some genetic nerve issues [based on all you have said, but none of us has actually seen her]. Many of us have been there with one dog or another-no shame in that. A dog with good nerve and confidence "bred in" hardly needs any socialization--one with a weaker temperament needs all the permutations covered and a lower stress life.
> 
> Just buck up, realize it, don't push her past her limits, and enjoy her.
> 
> She has a much better life than many of our own dogs and you have worked through some issues with her than others in your shoes have not mastered.


And look what all you've learned from Kira! I know first-hand that having a dog with 'issues' makes us step up and learn how to handle them. If I didn't have Onyx in my life, I probably would have just gone on as before with my dogs that were easy-peasy. She has made me step up and learn to deal/train and manage at a whole new level, thankfully!


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