# Thinking about making the switch to raw! A few questions...



## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Jazmyn has had the "itchies" since she was about 4 months old. We've tried different kibbles, none solving the issue entirely. She is currently 9 months old and eating Orijen 6 Fish.

I've been looking into it more, and have been considering changing her to a raw diet. My hesitation is which way to go with it. Also, Jazmyn can tend to be a gulper, so chewing bone has me a little hesitant.

*Option 1 - Raw ground meats + Urban Wolf Dietary Base Mix*
A friend of mine swears by this and has had a lot of success with her lab. The "recipe" is fairly simple to combine, and I can add any type of ground meat that I'd like (chicken, beef, turkey, lamb, rabbit, etc). The bag doesn't specify if I'm to use ground muscle meats with or without the bone (my friend uses the bone in variety).

Urban Wolf Natural Grain-Free Dog Food

Pros - No additional supplements needed, very easy to make, can easily supplement the diet with turkey necks, etc
Cons - Cost (doesn't seem like it would be any less expensive than her premium kibble - Orijen 6 Fish here is $90 after taxes for a 30lb bag)

*Option 2 - Full Raw Diet + Supplement*Quite a few suppliers in my area (including our trainer) sell ground meats with the bone, fat, and even organ, in the mix. The pricing isn't too bad in bulk. Ground meat is appealing to me for Jazmyn as I'm concerned she may swallow bone chunks without chewing.

I would base her diet around the ground meats, and then I can also supplement with supervised turkey necks, chicken quarters, etc to give her the benefit of chewing on the bones. I can also purchase frozen cubed organ meat, as well as tripe and other various items from Heronview Raw and Natural which is close to me ( Raw and Natural - Heronview Raw and Natural )

My supplement would be Feed-Sentials along with Sh-Emp oil from Carmen.

Pros - feels like a more "raw" way to do things, likely cheaper 
Cons - no way to know exact bone content in ground meats to properly balance diet (45%RMB/50%MM/5%OM), its intimidating!

I am thinking that I may start with the Raw + Urban Wolf to keep things simple, and to get a feeling for how Jazmyn takes to the raw food. Once I'm a little more comfortable and get into the swing of things, I think eventually I'd like to move to a fully raw diet.

I am going to be buying a freezer just for her food, so buying in bulk and then dividing won't be an issue.

Has anyone used Urban Wolf before? Was it successful other than the cost?

Thanks!!


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

I had issues with my dog gulping kibble but when he got on raw, he became a slow eater and an efficient chewer


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Anyone?
:bump:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just get your meat , ground with bone, from HeronView or trainer Mike -- (new product for Mike beef ground with beef bone plus organ meat plus tripe all in one - doesn't get any better)
feed basically chicken , beef once or twice a week .
don't need supervision. my gsd pups have been eating frames and necks since they were 5 , 6 weeks of age , never had an incident -
worry about bone content - not an issue 
urban wolf -- look up what the AVMA and the CVMA have to say about broccoli -- toxic , maybe not immediate reaction but over time liver compromise thanks to isothiocyanate which is a gastric irritant , in high enough doses can be fatal .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks Carmen!

My other concern about the Urban Wolf was the high vegetable content, which I didn't really think GSDs needed in their diet. And it's expensive!


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## snowman20s (Mar 2, 2012)

Don't go to them expensive commercial raw diets that have berrys and other unneeded things in them and ground meat does nothing for your dogs teeth. Instead just start your doggie on chicken for the first few weeks then add pork for a few weeks then you can start adding organs like liver. Liver is a must in the diet as there are stuff in liver that is not in the other organs feeding 80% meat 10% raw meaty bones and 10% organs, It is not hard to balance it out at all but at first it will be intimidating I am sure. If you have a Facebook join the group raw feeding they have tones of information on there


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

You can start w/ground suggestion Carmen said. Snowman's suggestion is good too, however the ratio's are off - too much MM vs. RMB.

What you can do is get knuckle bones for recreational purposes, that will train her to slow her roll - (I caution marrow bones due to fat content and if you choose, then best to test drive when you plan to be home next day - my dog gets explosive diarrhea from marrow).

You may want to consider feeding the liver organic (such a small % won't break the bank, as well switch up Offal's - liver 3x/week). It is the filtration system of all the toxins so that incl. meds and other the animal has had. With current "itchies" it may be an indication of toxic overload. Also she is young and has had a bunch of vaccines, so before giving her 1 yr. have titers done instead...she likely won't need...also, I haven't vaccinated since 2008 and not once has AC asked for proof of rabies upon re-license. They did for initial reg. Consider homeopathic's Thuja to detox vax. and lyssin (if I have that right) to detox. rabies vax. Also a suppliment - apple pectin, binds and removes heavy metals.

Coconut oil too will help dtox the body of microbes causing toxicity and nourish the brain and other neuro pathways. Raw, virgin, cold pressed, organic only 

Fruits and Veg are a consideration for when dog has other health condition you are trying to correct or re-balance or boost re: antiox.. I used as a filler in my dogs diet (cooked veg so no nutrients), and am realizing my errors...

Carm...I had no idea about the broccoli...hmmm. may be part of the problem my dog is having...

Also note: you could end up w/diarrhea...part of detox and/or fat malabsorption...so you add pancreatic d-zyme to transition

Good for you for recognizing to correct early issues starts w/ the proper diet 
NOT a round of steroids and antibiotics "just in case" of "secondary bacterial infection"...


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

snowman20s said:


> 80% meat 10% raw meaty bones and 10% organs, It is not hard to balance it out at all but at first it will be intimidating I am sure. If you have a Facebook join the group raw feeding they have tones of information on there



This is the prey model- which is 80% muscle meat, 10% organ and 10% BONE, not RMB- that would not be enough. I use this model and for me it's the easiest to follow since every RMB has a different percentage of bone.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> This is the prey model- which is 80% muscle meat, 10% organ and 10% BONE, not RMB- that would not be enough. I use this model and for me it's the easiest to follow since every RMB has a different percentage of bone.


From what I understand in order to have the proper cal/phos. you need about, 60/40 of MM to bone. If bone was more meaty, reduce the protein...mix it up over days, instead of worrying about perfect balance, and just worry about getting the right percentage of food into them based on weight and activity? 

The diet has been a bone of contention w/me for a long time as I always brought it up to my vet and she kept telling me it was fine, but it wasn't. I haven't read Tom Lonesdales book, but Billinghurst adds veg (nominal) compared to Pitcairn who replicated the kibble diet in natural form (i.e. soy, grains, fruit and mod. % of meat). Many authors and incl. forum "our dogs naturally" - who seems to imply Dodd's is founder of advocates grains - I have never used once the switch to raw. Although my dog gets 1.5lbs of his food from meat and bones (2:1) he also is (going to be "was") getting just under 1b. of cooked and highly processed veg. (expensive filler), I feel this has been a catalyist in GI troubles...however...my dog may have pancreatic issues...he really does not tolerate fat and as I try to incorporate just a little more - boom, his bowels are singing, mucous or greasy, soft and urgency and late night emergencies (always happens in wee hrs. of the night)...I tried to do just meat and bones this time last year and didn't go over well. He was sick and injured and wouldn't eat the veg. I was happy to not have to do, but ended up going back to (I really cannot remember why or what the symptoms were that I went back to veg. I was a mess at the time as I struggled w/vets to address my concerns you wouldn't believe me if I told you how my concerns were dismissed - horrible) these other issues going on too that may have been a factor 

I often think that if I had the proper advisement right from the start, My dog would have been in a much better place and wouldn't have suffered as much as he has. sigh.

So can you give an example of few days menu w/breakdown in oz's./pds. Would really appreciate


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I couldn't find the ingredients list for the Urban Wolf mix. I do see the pictures of what's in it - fruits and veggies. I haven't fed fruits or veggies to my dogs - as a integrated part of their diet - in over a decade and they are doing fine.

My philosophy is that dogs are carnivores and carnivores were not designed nor evolved to eat fruits or veggies. They do not have the teeth, jaw structure or digestive system necessary to properly process fruits and veggies in order to gain any nutritional value from them.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

The 60/40 is in reference to MM/RMB RMB is not 100% bone it's meat and bone. The 10% I am referring to is 100% bone. It's just a different way to look at it and imo easier.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"that dogs are carnivores and carnivores were not designed nor evolved to eat fruits or veggies. They do not have the teeth, jaw structure or digestive system necessary to properly process fruits"

Oh, really. Years' long study funded by University in Californina in 1930's , the Speery study , which examined gut contents of wild and feral - stray canids that had a bounty on them for being problematic. Instead of bringing in just the head for the reward , the farmers were given extra pay for their time and increased effort and inconvenience if they brought in the entire carcass.
Study clearly showed soft fruit, fermented wind fall apples, melons, grasses, seeds - both from source and as a by-product through pre-digested grasses and seeds/nuts in the stomach contents of prey , rodents, rabbits , birds.

Confirmed again some 80 years later in Parker study , who also did gut content examinations on eastern coyote (the larger variety we have -bigger , bolder) Eastern coyote: the story of its success - G. R. Parker - Google Books this book is excellent.

just for interest I picked up this one in the bargain shelves at a local Chapter's The Daily Coyote: A Story of Love, Survival, and Trust in the Wilds of Wyoming: Amazon.ca: Shreve Stockton: Books

my impression was that the coyote , being used to being near to humans and easier habituation is "easier" for the exotic pet person - easier than a wolf . I would recommend this book. (books - both)

Look at these young wolves having a berry eating party !!




 
more proof Wolves require more than just meat to stay healthy, though. They also eat fruits and vegetables to stock up on nutrients not found in meat. They enjoy berries like blueberries, ash berries and cowberries, as well as fruit like apples and pears. Wolves also eat grass when their stomach is upset, much like a dog. Sometimes, wolves visit farms and snack not on the barnyard animals, but on the vegetables

the vegetables wouldn't be broccoli or bok choy , but cucumber , peas -- even the coyote in my yard will swipe my young cucumbers - great repositories of clean water as are melons .

cooked vegetables not so good. when giving raw GREENS the cellulase and amylase enzymes are present and help with the breakdown in digestion. Cooked? you've destroyed them, destroyed the heat sensitive vitamins.

Lisa the places I pointed out have the supplements and they contain everything you need , coconut oil, fish oil, berries, appropriate grasses and herbaceous greens --

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Heck...before RAW, my dog used to munch on ragweed leaves, loved them, and he grazes on grass, select, not to be sick - never vomits (think once just recently a touch of bone and bile, but not in the past year or more).

I theorize that he is gooing for the chloraphill.
As for the ragweed - on kibble was vey sick. Ragweed is related to Goldenseal a natural herbal antibiotic and digestive aid. Since Raw, he stopped chewing Ragweed, still has munch on grass (but not roadside or residential - won't allow)


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

My dogs love to eat berries but it doesn't mean they NEED them - nutritionally - in order to thrive.

I want to see a wild canid pass up a meal of meat to eat some berries, fruits, grasses, etc.

Studying stomach contents would only be valid if the animals were well fed. Hungry canids will eat whatever they can to survive.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone for all of the information!

Carmen - I found the supplements and have a price for them now. Thanks! 

So based on what I have found, and I know that this will vary by region, these are some of the proteins (along with their pricing) for my area. 

Source 1
Ground Chicken + Bone = $45 for 55lb box (separated into 3-5lb bags - $0.81/lb)
Frozen Chicken Carcass = $15 for 25-30lb box
Shaved Beef = $75 for 50lb box (in 5lb bags - $1.50/lb)
Ground Beef Organ Meat = $45 for 25lb bag of 3'x3' cubs ($1.80/lb)
Ground Duck + Bone = $137.50 for 55lb box (in 5lb bags - $2.50/lb)
Ground Turkey+ Bone = $106.00 for 60lb box (in 5lb bags - $1.80/lb)
Turkey Necks = $2.40/lb
Also available: Ground lamb + bone patties, Ground rabbit + bone patties

Source 2
Ground turkey necks = $65 for 45lbs
Whole turkey necks = $57 for 45lbs
Ground chicken carcasses = $40 for 40 lbs
Whole chicken carcasses = $25 for 40lbs

Source 3
raw and natural product list - Heronview Raw and Natural

I will also look for sales when I do my regular grocery shopping as well. Yesterday I saw Chicken Leg Quarters on sale for $0.91/lb at Sobeys.
We will start off by feeding chicken, and see how she adjusts. We have had some concern that chicken may have been the cause of her allergies before, but I also know that raw chicken vs. processed chicken in kibble can be very different.

This weekend the first goal is to find a freezer and a digital scale.
Baby steps LOL


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it is a part of being well fed .

dogs are not obligate carnivores .

thrive and survive have different meanings.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

find the freezer , and oh if you find an extra one let me know, I need one . ditch the scale . use your eyes - the dog will show you.


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Carmen,

Apparently Paddy's Market in Oshawa/Hampton is having a large sale this Saturday! I'm going to check it out to see if they have a freezer.
http://www.paddysmarket.ca/pdfs/PaddysMarketTentSale.pdf


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

carmspack said:


> it is a part of being well fed .
> 
> dogs are not obligate carnivores .
> 
> thrive and survive have different meanings.


AND to consider...
Wild candids are also not jabbed with cultured vaccines and their adjuvants (mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde), nor are they poisoned w/spot on pesticides, or dosed w/antibiotics for prevention of secondary bacterial infection, OR given toxic NSAIDS for minor injuries...or lay on fluffy bedding nicely scented by fabric softener, or suck on exhaust fumes or subjected to radon gases (natural in the ground and trapped in houses not vented properly) and off gasing from granite counter tops, carpets, fabric stain protector sprays, household cleaners...There is a reason urban pets need antioxidents


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and -- everyone forgets about the water .

fluouride (bone softening) and chlorine (a carcinagin)


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## starburst (Jun 9, 2012)

*Lisa* said:


> Jazmyn has had the "itchies" since she was about 4 months old. We've tried different kibbles, none solving the issue entirely. She is currently 9 months old and eating Orijen 6 Fish.
> 
> I've been looking into it more, and have been considering changing her to a raw diet. My hesitation is which way to go with it. Also, Jazmyn can tend to be a gulper, so chewing bone has me a little hesitant.
> 
> ...


Great post !
There is so much to know that I personally find it a little overwhelming though.
How much would it cost (on average) to feed a full grow GSD if I make everything myself vs prepared ??
I know a lot depends on the price of meat but I assume those who feed raw buy on sale


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

starburst said:


> Great post !
> There is so much to know that I personally find it a little overwhelming though.
> How much would it cost (on average) to feed a full grow GSD if I make everything myself vs prepared ??
> I know a lot depends on the price of meat but I assume those who feed raw buy on sale


Starburst...Lisa quotes prices she sourced on link #15 and that's cdn.$
Pricing depends on wholesalers, and what you feed and any health conditions you need to address. But should be able to do for about the price of a "premium" bag of chow ...and without the side effects of kibble


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## starburst (Jun 9, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Starburst...Lisa quotes prices she sourced on link #15 and that's cdn.$
> Pricing depends on wholesalers, and what you feed and any health conditions you need to address. But should be able to do for about the price of a "premium" bag of chow ...and without the side effects of kibble



opps !
Thanks GatorBytes,much appreciated.


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## starburst (Jun 9, 2012)

carmspack said:


> and -- everyone forgets about the water .
> 
> fluouride (bone softening) and chlorine (a carcinagin)


 
So no tap water... what do you recommend ? 

Looks like I have tons to learn !!


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Okay....so Jazmyn weighed in last week at about 63 pounds. Her goal adult weight is probably between what she is now and 70 pounds or so. Her activity level moderate, but energy level can be high.

At 2-3% per day, that would mean (based on today's weight) she should be eating roughly 1.3-1.9 pounds (20.8-30.4 ounces) per day. At her goal adult weight, that would be 1.4-2.1 pounds (22.4-33.6 ounces) per day. Does that seem right for her age (9 months)? I know the poop will tell me, but just as a starting point.

This means about (at today's weight):
13.7 ounces of RMB
15.2 ounces of MM
1.5 ounces of OM

So based on what I read, please make sure I'm understanding how to start this:
I'll start out on a ground chicken diet (with bone in), I should be feeding the total daily value all in ground chicken + her supplements. Then when I know she is digesting that well, I can add in a different type of chicken (say a leg quarter, and cut back on the ground chicken that day). Then after a couple weeks, try a different protein (turkey necks, ground beef, ground turkey, etc), add in organs (all slowly), etc until we work up to a diet that has say 3-5 different proteins, based on what agrees with her.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Yup that sounds like a plan!
For amounts - you will have to see how she does, pay attention to how her ribs and spine feel to see if she needs more or less food. One of my GSD's eats 12 oz a day total - the others eat 2-2.5 lbs each. And my male JRT eats 1 lb of food a day and he's still super lean - that's like 6% of his body weight...

Some dogs you can jump right into switching protein sources up - other dogs have more sensitive stomachs. If she has runny poop, move slowly. If not, you might not have to wait a couple weeks - maybe just a week.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Isn't under a year old approx. 5% and up depending on all - mild/mod. exercise being the lower end and 8% for working dog?


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Oo if it were 5% of her body weight, that would up the amount of food she gets for sure. She was 9 months old on the 11th. 5% of her 63 pounds would be about 3.1 pounds of food per day.

On a good note, we bought a freezer! It wasn't a "steal" lol but a good price, based on what is available in our area. We ended up purchasing a 7 cu. ft freezer


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

*Lisa* said:


> Oo if it were 5% of her body weight, that would up the amount of food she gets for sure. She was 9 months old on the 11th. 5% of her 63 pounds would be about 3.1 pounds of food per day.
> 
> On a good note, we bought a freezer! It wasn't a "steal" lol but a good price, based on what is available in our area. We ended up purchasing a 7 cu. ft freezer


Just going by Billinghurst book. Growing pups need more % per pound then grown based on growing weight not target weight up to a year. But I cannot say for sure, all depends on the individual dog, maybe yo-yo...like Carm said throw away the scale you dog will tell. Now I would not be so confident on that either - but haven't raised dogs for 30 yrs (and I'm jealous)...so perhaps, up the amount a bit, see what Carm says too. Novice feeders eh!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lisa you can visit and watch pups eat , or one of the pups will be AT Mike's next week . This one has been selected as a young dog to run on for service (brother going to Baltimore). You can watch feeding time.
You saw Badger , he is perfect weight. See what he eats. I'll see you there some time?


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

I emailed Mike to see if he'd like to schedule a training session for Jazmyn this coming Saturday (we got rained out last weekend). When we are there next, we definitely are wanting to take a look at the raw products.

That would be awesome Carmen! I haven't known a dog (or owner, other than my cousin in the US) that wants to put time into feeding raw, so it would be neat to see.

We did get to meet Badger, he is one handsome dog (Paul, my husband, was smitten lol).


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Wahoo! The Freezer is being delivered tomorrow 

In order to start this whole process, should I go ahead and buy a full 55 lb box of the ground chicken (with bone in)? Or should I buy just a little bit of it at a time to see how she does (they also sell it in individual bags of 3-5lbs)?


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