# ASL Vs WGSL question



## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I am still in my beginning process of deciding where to go to get what I want in a GSD. Please forgive me if this is a question that has been asked so many times before that you knowledgeable people are ready to bang your heads on your desks by my post/query, but I take adding a canine companion to my home very seriously and want to be very sure and discriminating in my choices.

Two things are key for me. Temperament and health. I would probably place temperament above health if I had to "rack and stack" but both are highly important (only reason I would place temperament above health is that after my experiences with rescue I can confidently say I would rather deal with health problems, as tragic as they may be, than temperament problems. Putting a dog down to end phsyical suffering is easier, imo, than having to end a life because of temperament problems, especially if they have caused the additional tragedy of harm to a human. Long digression, sorry)

In terms of temperament I am hoping to find a stable dog with low to medium drive. One that isn't "soft" yet won't be challenging me every step of the way either. Eager to learn, biddable, curious, and playful. I prefer to train with clicker and whatever reward is most motivating to the dog (We have a lab for whom that is food and a Golden for whom that is praise and play) and prefer to keep things positive, inspiring, and confidence building, but I believe a dog should be able to handle a correction without falling apart as well. 

I am looking for a dog to be primarily my companion. Addicted to me, if you will, but also calm and accepting of other people. I have teenagers and a grandchild so while being somewhat aloof is fine, I would like the dog to be willing to play/hang out/respond to and with others and mature to a dog that is gentle with and accepting of small children (which I fully realize requires proper training and socialization but I believe genetics plays a huge role/foundation in basic temperament upon which to build) 

We are pretty active with our dogs but other than my son messing around with agility, frisbee, and dock diving we don't really do performance activities. I would like a dog that can be low key ( iow has an off switch) and have solid house and public manners with general obedience training. Being able to join my son and his dog in their activities and play is also important to me.

I believe very strongly that temperament needs to be selected for/bred for although how a breeder socializes their pups is also something I consider.

Health wise I will only consider a breeder that is diligent about health certifications and selectively breeding toward the elimination of genetic diseases pertinent to the breed, but would like to further reduce my risk by choosing from a gene pool which is less likely to produce these defects if possible. (my rescue Golden is a mess of health issues which have become problematic for the breed-allergies/skin issues/mast cell tumors and I am eager to avoid these kinds of problems in the future)

For these reasons I believe looking at show lines is my best option. (although I am willing to be disabused of this notion if someone thinks otherwise) So am I more likely to find these traits in ASL or WGSL? All opinions solicited and most welcome.

I am just "shallow" enough to want a good looking dog as well  I've been farting around on the internet for a while and have found certain aspects of appearance I appreciate. I'll just post a couple of links to demonstrate what I like:

ASL that I like the look of
SEL.EX.CH. (US/CAN) HiCliff Bronson Kaleef - German Shepherd Dog


WGSL that I like the look of
VA (US) Zeke vom Kirchenwald - German Shepherd Dog

I do not like the, what I consider to be extreme, rears I see in ASL but I also dislike the, what I consider to be "roach back", top lines I see in the WGSL. Neither is a "deal breaker" for me. I just find them unattractive. 

And I think this is gorgeous even though I know it is incorrect 
Long Coat German Shepherds for Sale - Long coat German shephards for sale | Mittelwest German Shepherds

TIA!


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Wanted to bump your post so some of the more knowledgeable people might see and comment.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

find a reputable breeder. decide if you want a WL or a
SL. train and socialize and your problems are solved
before they start. you say you don't like roached backs
but you like Zeke Vom Kirchenwald. Zeke is roached.
what's incorrect about a coatie?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

There is an incorrect bit of info given on the "long coat" page.
The SV *does* allow the Long Stock Coats to be bred and shown as of 2011....they have already had classes at the Sieger Shows.
_(I think that it is posted on the particular site that they cannot....)_

@the OP....you can find a perfect puppy with all the characteristics that you require in ALL bloodlines in the breed.
ALL bloodlines can make wonderful companions......


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> find a reputable breeder. decide if you want a WL or a
> SL. train and socialize and your problems are solved
> before they start. you say you don't like roached backs
> but you like Zeke Vom Kirchenwald. Zeke is roached.
> what's incorrect about a coatie?


ASL and WGSL have differences beyond physical structure so I am looking for input on the temperament and health aspects of each. 

I can train until the cows come home but if genetics haven't given me a solid foundation to work from I am going to have problems. So I am looking for input on where I am most likely to find the kind of temperament I seek.

I don't like roached backs but they are not a deal breaker for me, just a dislike. I like "Zeke" for his overall appearance. Just as I like the ASL dog I linked to despite what I consider an "extreme" rear. 

I should have specified that my understanding is LC's are faulted and so many breeders still discount them to buyers etc. Which I don't care about, frankly. 

HTH


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

What you ask for--a good companion and stable dog--can and should be found in any line. 

Focus on finding a good breeder, give them your list, and they will make sure to pair you with an appropriate dog.

With that said, I'm not sure there is any way to GUARANTEE that an 8 week old puppy will be "addicted to you" or how accepting of kids they will be. A suggestion is to also perhaps look into adults in rescue.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Long Coats are *not faulted* as of 2011.....


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Longcoats aren't a fault (or disqualification?) anymore. They can be shown for SV now. (I don't know about AKC shows, though). 

You said you don't like extreme rear in ASL, but that dog appears quite extreme to me. I can't stand when the dog's hock is lying flat on the ground and the other leg is almost horizontal. 
DoggieDad, I thought a roach was when the spine curved above the withers? Zeke looks like he just has a sloped back. (To my unprofessional eye). 

If I was going to go with an ASL type dog, I would go to a breeder that does UKC conformation, personally. UKC dogs are much less extreme in the rear than the AKC show dogs. 
Here's a dog who is a showline that has nice rear angulation without being ridiculous. 
http://www.redrockgsd.com/IMG_5715.JPG

You sound like you really know what you want, so I would suggest going out and visiting breeders, talking to breeders, and get a feel for their dogs. Meet some, go to events and ask about the dogs you like, ask about their temperament. Seems like you just need to find a breeder you want a puppy from, because a lot of dogs both in the ASL/WGSL world will have the qualities you're looking for.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1 >>>> you'll find sound temperaments and strong
nerves in all of the lines. you'll fine dogs with solid health
in all of the lines.

2 >>>> with a reputable breeder you'll find the health
and temperament you want.

3 >>>> i find it funny you don't like roached backs
but you like Zeke.

don't worry that special pup is out there and it's
probably not that far away.



GrammaD said:


> 1 >>>> ASL and WGSL have differences beyond physical structure so I am looking for input on the temperament and health aspects of each.
> 
> 2 >>>> I can train until the cows come home but if genetics haven't given me a solid foundation to work from I am going to have problems. So I am looking for input on where I am most likely to find the kind of temperament I seek.
> 
> 3>>>> I don't like roached backs but they are not a deal breaker for me, just a dislike. I like "Zeke" for his overall appearance. Just as I like the ASL dog I linked to despite what I consider an "extreme" rear.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

well my unprofessional eyes think Zeke is roached and my
unprofessional eyes are professional unprofessional. :crazy:



Konotashi said:


> DoggieDad, I thought a roach was when the spine curved above the withers? Zeke looks like he just has a sloped back. (To my unprofessional eye).
> 
> http://


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

GSDElsa said:


> What you ask for--a good companion and stable dog--can and should be found in any line.
> 
> Focus on finding a good breeder, give them your list, and they will make sure to pair you with an appropriate dog.
> 
> With that said, I'm not sure there is any way to GUARANTEE that an 8 week old puppy will be "addicted to you" or how accepting of kids they will be. A suggestion is to also perhaps look into adults in rescue.


I guess I was laboring under a false impression that there were differences in temperament and health between show lines 

I have found several WGSL breeders that I think look great. Having a bit more trouble with ASL so any pointing in a good direction would be appreciated.

Interesting that the long coats aren't faulted anymore. I wonder why breeders (at least in the WGSL) are still discounting them? I'd take one in a heartbeat if it met my other critera!

I don't express myself well I guess because what I mean by "addicted to me" is I really want a "one woman dog." Does that make more sense? And while I think most of liking kids is how well and carefully a dog is socialized to kids I think you can help things along by getting a dog with good temperaments behind it.




> You said you don't like extreme rear in ASL, but that dog appears quite extreme to me. I can't stand when the dog's hock is lying flat on the ground and the other leg is almost horizontal.


From what I have seen at AKC shows the dog I posted is less extreme than most. I agree, I do not like seeing the hock lying flat on the ground and even worse is seeing the dog coming off that while gaiting, imo. Viewed from the rear they almost look deformed to me. So many appear to have sickle hocks as well. 

I see many complaints about flaky temperaments in ASL and wanted to get a feel for whether this is actually a problem because it is really difficult to get a feel for temperament ring side. And there are literally no GSD's in my son's agility or obedience classes, which is pretty sad. (all Aussies, BCs, Labs and Goldens and couple of standard poodles) 

On the other side people have told me that the WGSL tend to be a "lot of dog" for the average trainer so I also wanted to get a feel for the "truthiness" of that opinion.

Thanks for the info/comments thus far


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

GrammaD said:


> I guess I was laboring under a false impression that there were differences in temperament and health between show lines


There are, but what you are looking for is pretty generic IMO. Any given litter will have a lower drive that would make a great active companion. Every breeder should be breeding for good health and stable temperment and shouldn't be placing super hard or sharp dogs into a pet home


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

GrammaD said:


> I see many complaints about flaky temperaments in ASL and wanted to get a feel for whether this is actually a problem because it is really difficult to get a feel for temperament ring side.
> 
> On the other side people have told me that the WGSL tend to be a "lot of dog" for the average trainer so I also wanted to get a feel for the "truthiness" of that opinion.


I think there are a lot of bad breeders, period, that you wouldn't be able to get a solid active companion from. Good ASL breeders will have what you are looking for. And good WGSL breeders will have what you are looking for.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My Nikon's breeder bred a young female to Zeke, if you like Zeke. Before she bred WGSL she bred and exhibited ASL for many many years, so she may be able to give you a good comparison and explain why she changed lines.

Alta-Tollhaus German Shepherd Dogs


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Liesje said:


> My Nikon's breeder bred a young female to Zeke, if you like Zeke. Before she bred WGSL she bred and exhibited ASL for many many years, so she may be able to give you a good comparison and explain why she changed lines.
> 
> Alta-Tollhaus German Shepherd Dogs


This is the breeder I placed at the top of my WGSL list. I planned to contact her to start the conversation and see if I pass muster with her once I know that WGSL is the direction I wish to go (which my DH and I are leaning toward) but perhaps I will jump the gun a little if you think she'd be willing to help a novice make a decision?

We have also already made arrangements to attend the USA Sieger Show in Indy in May to really look around. 

For ASL there are 3 specialties in May in my state and if we can manage them all we will. Cobo in March, because it is benched, is also on my priority list even though it isn't a specialty. 

I plan to take my time but don't want to waste the time of busy breeders either. Hopefully going to the shows will help me gain enough understanding to make a good decision and get onto an appropriate wait list.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think going to shows is a great idea. I always see dogs at shows I really like that I never would have "found" otherwise.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I have only gone to one AKC show (actually, that's pretty much the only dog show I've ever been to), but here's what a lot of the back ends of the GSDs there looked like. There was a six month old female there that looked crippled, literally. Her back legs swung out when she was walking and her butt was almost dragging the ground. It was sad.


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