# Best Place For A Working Dog Pup



## Marines02 (Dec 2, 2010)

Hi,
I have a 8 week old male puppy named "Rip" and he is going to be a working dog(protection and tracking).
I wanted to knowis keeping him in a kennel better than keeping him outside or letting him rome the house?
Whats some good toys for him to play with?
Whats are some tips i could use to keep his drive up and make him good at protection training?
Any advice would help alot, Thanks!


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

If you are training for protection (real protection, not schutzhund), then a kenneled dog is useless. Not only in a physical sense, as the dog will not be able to get to you if you need him, but in the sense that a dog who is stuck out in a kennel is NOT forming the extremely close, and supremely important bond that these dogs must have with their handlers to be effective. It is the BOND that ultimately drives these dogs to be effective protectors; all other drives are secondary to this.

Tips? Socialize the snot out of him. A protection dog should be exposed to absolutely anything and everything. They must be able to handle ALL situations with confidence and stability, and learn how to handle day-to-day life situations. Spend this time exposing him to the world, as this will be far more useful than anything else you can train with him at this point. 

As for toys, I recommend a Kong, a nice tug toy/rope, and some bully sticks to keep him occupied.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

atravis said:


> If you are training for protection (real protection, not schutzhund), then a kenneled dog is useless. Not only in a physical sense, as the dog will not be able to get to you if you need him, but in the sense that a dog who is stuck out in a kennel is NOT forming the extremely close, and supremely important bond that these dogs must have with their handlers to be effective. It is the BOND that ultimately drives these dogs to be effective protectors; all other drives are secondary to this.
> 
> .


sorry but that is totally NOT true. We keep police k9s outside here so they acclimate to the heat and humidity in order to work effectively in it. TRAINING creates the dog who "protects" on command or reacts to a certain situation. THey bond just fine


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Yes but Im assuming this doing is going to be used for pp and therefore should be in the house for this purpose...I also think that the dog should spend plenty of time in the house for optimal time to bond. Im not disagreeing that they cant bond well in a kennel but dont necessarily see the point of it in this case.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

ladylaw203 said:


> sorry but that is totally NOT true. We keep police k9s outside here so they acclimate to the heat and humidity in order to work effectively in it. TRAINING creates the dog who "protects" on command or reacts to a certain situation. THey bond just fine


I think GoSearch is talking about family protection. How can the dog protect the family if the dog is kenneled and the family is in the house?


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

A K9 and a personal protection dog are different.

A PPD's primary focus at all times should be the handler, and working in defense of the handler.

I imagine if a K9 was ONLY concerned about his handler, then he would be a pretty ineffective K9.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Marines02 said:


> Hi,
> I have a 8 week old male puppy named "Rip" and he is going to be a working dog(protection and tracking).
> I wanted to knowis keeping him in a kennel better than keeping him outside or letting him rome the house?
> Whats some good toys for him to play with?
> ...


I am reading kennel as crate. In the house. 

A crate is great for a puppy - any puppy - because they are like little kids putting their mouths on everything!


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

I guess I was assuming that when the OP put outside that it meant kenneled outside?!? But yes agree that a puppy should definetly be crate trained! All of my dogs have crates! And if they dont require staying in one while I am gone the door is always open so they have the option of going in


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

atravis said:


> A K9 and a personal protection dog are different.
> 
> A PPD's primary focus at all times should be the handler, and working in defense of the handler.
> 
> I imagine if a K9 was ONLY concerned about his handler, then he would be a pretty ineffective K9.


I was addressing the bonding issue. You will find few bonds greater than we have with our police k9s who work with us. That bond is as strong as any. The bond has nothing to do with location. 
PPD is not magic. The dog is trained using the same methods as we do. 
I also do NOT reccomend a true PPD for anyone. Few folks truly have the time to maintain the training on the dog and the dog can be a liability. Some insurance companies will not write home owners too. A well bred GSD will provide adequate protection naturally.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Regardless of your intentions for the pups training in the future...you have an 8 week old puppy. DO NOT let it roam around outside- even in a fenced backyard. If you leave it loose in your house you will not have much of a house to come home to. Neither one of those options is particularly good when it comes to raising a puppy.

A crate in the house is your best bet. Please understand that your puppy will probably not start protection training in earnest until he is almost a year old. He has to be mentally mature enough to understand the training. I agree that socializing the puppy to different environments is a good way to go. You want your adult dog to make concious decisions from a place of confidence, not reactions to fear. So you encourage him to be confident and happy in situations. A puppy like that should be pretty sure he can take on the world. An undersocialized dog trained in aggression is a liability. 

I agree with Renee also. Almost no one needs a true PPD. Seriously consider what you are looking for. You will HAVE to get with a trainer. That trainer will be able to help you in building your puppy up in the right way.

All kinds of toys are good. However I prefer things that are durable. 

Leerburg is a good place to start for info on working dogs.
Questions & Answers on Raising a Working Puppy


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## Duncan (Apr 20, 2002)

I think all puppy needs to be close to the humans.
I had many good working dogs, but all lived with us in the house. If You have time to train the dog day by day, Your dog will be a good guard for You (in his adult ages), and last but not least he will be a real partner, knowing Your words, Your thoughts, feeling what You feel. You'll have a partner who is ready for giving his whole life for anytime!
And he will be happy in every moment in the life You take a look to him. And You too.

And what can a kenneled dog to do for protection?


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> Regardless of your intentions for the pups training in the future...you have an 8 week old puppy. DO NOT let it roam around outside- even in a fenced backyard. If you leave it loose in your house you will not have much of a house to come home to. Neither one of those options is particularly good when it comes to raising a puppy.
> 
> A crate in the house is your best bet. Please understand that your puppy will probably not start protection training in earnest until he is almost a year old. He has to be mentally mature enough to understand the training. I agree that socializing the puppy to different environments is a good way to go. You want your adult dog to make concious decisions from a place of confidence, not reactions to fear. So you encourage him to be confident and happy in situations. A puppy like that should be pretty sure he can take on the world. An undersocialized dog trained in aggression is a liability.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup:


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

@Renee:

The argument against PPDs is a tired one. Liability bla bla bla, if you think these dogs are so unstable as to be considered a "liability", then that's your cross to bear. Honestly, as someone who trains K9s, I am surprised by your lack of trust in such dogs. I, for one, choose to think better of them. And protection training, if I may, does NOT necessarily imply a _need_. There are those who have a love for the work, and if that is their passion, have every right to live it. 

A dog who is kenneled for the majority of his life does not form the same kind of bond as a dog who is LIVING his family every moment of the day. And that's important, as these dogs operate as a FAMILY unit. If they are not part of the family, then what good are they? They are NOT K9s- who are sent after people, forced to work independently from their handlers, forced into situations where taking down a perp becomes more important than keeping his handler safe. You, being one such person who knows these dogs, should not need to be told this. The bond you have with those dogs is _different_. I do not deny that there is a bond, a strong one and an important one, but a _different_ one just the same.

Maybe you believe differently, and that's your right, but I do not agree. PPDs rely on that bond- that closeness. They can have all the training in the world, but if they don't give two spits about you, they aren't going to give their all into defending you or your family.

And, once again, your dog can't protect you if he's locked away in a kennel.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

atravis said:


> It is the BOND that ultimately drives these dogs to be effective protectors; all other drives are secondary to this.


This is unmitigated garbage. 

A puppy should be crated or kenneled when you are not at home. This is for the pups sake (eating bleach, swallowing the table leg etc.) and for yours (ever come home to three separate piles of puppy crap on your floor?).

You will need to teach this dog house manners as at some point you will expect the dog to behave himself downstairs while you sleep or whatever it is you expect from him.

Lastly dogs very,very, very rarely protect because they are "bonded" to you. I have seen more than one dog with a tight bond and no training run off the field with pressure. Go find a trainer. Ask them these questions. And remember that most people with a real need for a PPD buy an adult. This dog will be useless to you as a protector for 12-18 months (if at all).


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Crating a puppy while you are away is not the same as him primarily living in the kennel when he is not being worked. Apparently some people are reading "kenneled" here as meaning crate training, if such in the case, then I agree. 

And good luck with a dog who isn't bonded to you. If you buy a trained dog from anyone with half a mind for their dogs, they are going to tell you that its going to take TIME for the dog to come around to you, and that you will have to continue to work with the dog to properly develop him. If you run out and purchase a trained adult today, and expect that dog to give you even 50% of what he has the next day, then you are a fool. 

The bond alone does not a protection dog make, BUT not having a bond with the dog is no better than not having a dog at all.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

atravis said:


> @Renee:
> 
> The argument against PPDs is a tired one. Liability bla bla bla, if you think these dogs are so unstable as to be considered a "liability", then that's your cross to bear. Honestly, as someone who trains K9s, I am surprised by your lack of trust in such dogs. I, for one, choose to think better of them.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

rvadog said:


> Lastly dogs very,very, very rarely protect because they are "bonded" to you. I have seen more than one dog with a tight bond and no training run off the field with pressure. Go find a trainer. Ask them these questions. And remember that most people with a real need for a PPD buy an adult. This dog will be useless to you as a protector for 12-18 months (if at all).


 
Yep. Civlians also do not understand that IF someone really cranks down on that dog, he is outa there. They are a good deterent and can buy someone some time. A patrol dog fights a human because of the training he has received. He" KNOWS" he can whip a human because we teach him that he can. Once a patrol dog is seriously hurt on duty, he has to be tested after he heals to see if he is willing to engage. Some will not because they learned that they CAN be hurt. Most PPD dogs that I see are titled sport dogs,imported and sold to someone for $$$$ that thinks he is a bad dog because he will kill a sleeve. Very few folks that I see have one that is truly civil. Just a fact. 
 I also want folks to be realistic about what the dog can do for them. I have met folks that thought under any and all circumstances that the dog can save them. Just have to be realistic


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

Agreed on the sleeve killer dogs  There are lots of dogs out there that have not recieved enough "reality based" training, that are used for "protection" or police, for that matter..but have trouble engaging when the chips are down, leaving the handler with a false sense of security. Lots of sport dogs out there that work great on a field, but outside that environment it is another story. Add some environmental distractions, slippery surfaces, gunfire, passive decoys, multiple decoys, etc., and that's when the fun begins.

Just a few weeks ago, I saw a "trained protection dog" that bounced off the decoy a number of times..with no pressure on the dog. I've seen sport dogs so conditioned to do just sport, that they cannot operate off of a training field. There are exceptions to all of these rules..and is individually based on the dog, handler and training. There are some excellent "sport dogs" I know that would very likely bite for real


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I agree with a lot of the things that have been said.

8 week old puppy, you should crate him/her. That crate is their den and should also be fed there as well.

Having a 8 week old puppy you shouldn't be thinking PP at all with them at this time. It should all be fun and letting him/her be a pup and enjoy the world. Stay away from pet stores until they reach 16 weeks and are fully vaccinated. If youy can't watcht he pup in the house either crate or keep him/her tethered to your leg. 

There is nothing wrong with wanting a PPD. There are different levels of PP and you should sit down with a PP trainer and see what level do you feel is the best for you. PPD doesn't always mean a level 4 Terminator. PPD is one that does and is trained for what you purposes you need.

I have 2 czech dogs, a sport dog and a PPD. My sport dog turns 5 months old on the 25th and will only do PSA's. It won't be till he is around 3 when I will flip him to PP. Just because your dog does sport does it mean that he can't be a good PPD. It depends on the dog, you and your trainer. **** Mike Diehl has a bad @ss dog that did sport and was a K9. So again it can be done it is up to the people and training to make it so.

Now my 2 yr old is a true PPD and will lite up on anyone I tell him too without hesitation. He stays "on" when we are out anywhere. At home he switches it to "off". My dog does muzzle work which doesn't last logn b/c he really doesn't need it as he is very civil. I work him against 2 and 3 attackers, under gun fire, different types of enviornments, etc. We train for car jackings and we do home invasions. He is a true PPD and has no out command. He doesn't stop until whatever he has a hold on stops moving. On the sleve against any attacker he spits it out immediately and go back after the man. When I walk him he constantly scans from left and right looking. Again you can have a nasty dog, it is the control that needs to be accomplished. Now again, I keep my back gate on a pad lock and keep signs up. I tell him when I have people in my house they are friends and he is cool. It is a liability and you have to be aware of that. But again, you may not need this high level. **** I work him 3x and soon 4x a week along with my sport dog.

Plus my 2 yr old is so sweet and loves to kiss and likes when i put my hand in his mouth...lol. Having a dog like this is like having a assault weapon in your house. You need to make sure you stay educated , keep up training and be smart b/c people do dumb things.


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