# Officers shoot dogs



## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/06/birmingham_police_shoot_dogs_i.html

From what I heard on the radio, the three dogs were terrier type rescues, none over 25 lbs. They also received their injuries in their back legs, which would point to them running away from the cops...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

And then they jailed the owners for cursing at them?!?!?


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Yes, apparently the wife came out, saw what the officers did, yelled at them and they arrested her for disorderly conduct and then him for the leash law violation....apparently, they also kept them for an extra few hours after they posted bail due to "paperwork"


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I don't understand why:

1) After all this crap between officers and dogs they don't have that dog repellent spray. I mean, can't they just whip out some pepper spray or something?

2) Why didn't they just shoot the gun, like, at the ground to use the noise to scare the dogs away rather than probably unloading an entire clip on them? (I can't imagine that they were such good shots that they were able to hit a running dog in the leg without unloading quite a few shots.)

Ugh. This is so ridiculous. Why were the police even responding to a call about loose dogs? And why were they using guns to round them up? Where was the Animal Control? Too many questions.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Has the city lost control of its police force? 

Is breaking the city's leash law considered such a dangerous crime that it requires a citizen to be arrested and not just handed a citation for the violation? 

Is cursing a cop illegal - a real reason to arrest someone for disorderly conduct - what happened to the woman's first admendment rights? 

I'll wait and see what the investigation finds about them shooting the dogs. 

The article sure doesn't make it sound like the cops acted in a professional manner. It will be interesting to see how the investigation progresses.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Well, between this and beating the unconscience man, given he was a criminal, the city isn't looking too swift.

I have an idea...step back into your car?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People need to be fined for letting their dogs run loose. 

We do not need police officers shooting the dogs, especially if the owners are home. 

When I ran over the dog and called the Sherriff's Department and got the Highway Patrol, the guy who came out wondered why I even stopped. I said it was alive, I couldn't just leave it there. He said he would not have been able to either. He turned the collar around to find the tag on the collar. And then while waiting for the owner, he called around to find an all night vet. I guess my point is that this is what we expect and hope our LEOs are like. 

My dad always told me never to swear at cops. So far I've never been arrested. Not sure if there is a correlation or not. But I think that the disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct thing can be applied along a continuum depending on whether the officer is PO'd. So, I do not swear at cops. But if they shot my dog, I might be claiming temporary insanity.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Yeow! What nasty officers! And what a jerky reply from the city. A few of us remember the civil rights era - Bham got attention then, too.
(MLK Letter from a Birmingham Jail)


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> ....When I ran over the dog and called the Sherriff's Department and got the Highway Patrol, the guy who came out wondered why I even stopped......


In Ontario, if you hit a dog and leave, you can be charged with hit and run. It's the same violation as hitting a human.








Even with out the law I could never leave a dog if I hit it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I suppose the country folks out here figure if you are dumb enough to let your dog run loose, and they run it over, you are just lucky we are not making you pay for the damage to our fender. 

Living in the country, I can really understand the frustration of people about loose dogs. Lots of people leave them run loose because they "live in the country now." So if you don't care enough to keep your dog contained, then it's your problem if you never know what became of your dog. 

In my opinion you cannot leave an animal lie there still alive; and even had it been dead, I would have taken the collar off and found the tag and called the owners.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

That's horrible. It's not like the police officers were in any kind of danger. There's no need to shoot a dog that can't even reach you if you stood on a chair. If the police officers really thought those dogs were a threat to them, then those police officers are huge wussies. Talk about excessive force. And then arresting the people for having a logical response to the situation? What are they supposed to say, "Thank you officers for shooting my dogs while I'm standing a few feet away from them "?

What's next? Shooting people's tires out instead of giving speeding tickets?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

It seems a lot of people are ready to criticize the police for nearly any situation. I just thought I'd make a few comments from a policeman's perspective. First, the police were there because of a complaint from a citizen. it's not like the police were driving around looking for some dogs to shoot. If someone has a problem with police responding to calls of such a nature it should be brought up with the policy makers, not the officers following orders. Secondly, the story in the link says the dogs charged at them from out of the woods. The owner of the dogs tried unsuccessfully call the dogs off. they kept coming. One poster said; just get back in the car or words to that effect. Well, I guess they could have done that, they could have just left. Of course if someone would have been hurt by the dogs after the police left they would have been wrong there as well. It's not the provence of the police to leave before a situation is settled. That's why the police were called, they don't have that option of deciding not to deal with a problem. That's part of the job. The officers' stated, according to the article, they felt threatened; stray dog call, 3 dogs that can't be controlled charging them. I wasn't there. I don't think any other of the posters were there either. The police officers did what they felt they had to do. It's often like that. Officers make on the spot decisions, usually under stress, that will be discussed in a relaxed atmosphere over a cup of coffee by people that, well, just love to find fault. That's my perspective with a personal note to the poster that compared a stray dog call to the civil rights era. I think that statement is nothing more than ignorant and inflammatory.

DFrost


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

If the dogs were charging the police officers aggressively and the owner COULD NOT call them off, then I say "shoot". I would not want them to get in their car and leave. My small child could be the next one walking when they came at her and she IS small enough they could have hurt or killed her.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I wasn't saying get in the car and leave, I was saying just get back in your car until the owners could call the dogs back.

I do find it odd the two who were shot were shot in the backlegs and the other one escaped injury because it was hiding. Sounds like a ferocious attack...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DFrost, I appreciate your perspective, but I do have one question. Do you really feel that it was appropriate to jail the owner for cursing at the police under the circumstances? I think most people would be pretty upset at having their dogs shot, and cursing is a fairly mild response.


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

By looking at the size of the paws in the arcitcles picture, I don't think we're talking about large breed dogs here. These are little dogs.

I think the cops in this situation were just plain trigger happy. The excuse that they didn't know if the dogs had a disease is just that, an excuse.

Dogs do sometimes get excited at the site of strangers and as we all know,from walking our bigger dogs, the little ones can be the PITA. And yes,one dog can get the others into the paq mode. But that dosen't mean shooting.

Come on! the dogs were shot in the back legs. What, were these special trick bullets that turn around and attack from the rear?
Sounds like the dogs were already retreating.


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## mle (May 21, 2009)

Uh!! That is cruelty!! My Aussie charges people (doesn't bite but runs into you) when he is super happy. Those officers were just plain trigger happy. "Oh! Ow! The little Terrier is biting me!"


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomDFrost, I appreciate your perspective, but I do have one question. Do you really feel that it was appropriate to jail the owner for cursing at the police under the circumstances? I think most people would be pretty upset at having their dogs shot, and cursing is a fairly mild response.


I wasn't there, I don't know if the arrest was warranted. I am fairly certain of two things; I don't have the most faith in the media, and the people that were arrested will have ample opportunity to make their case in court. 

DFrost


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: crabbyBy looking at the size of the paws in the arcitcles picture, I don't think we're talking about large breed dogs here.
> 
> I think the cops in this situation were just plain trigger happy.


Looking at pictures and not thinking they were large or posed a threat is a lot different than being there.

You can bet the "trigger happiness" of the officers will be thoroughly investigated. I'm sure Internal Affairs has already pulled thier jacket to see how many times the officers have pulled thier guns and fired. Along with that, they'll look at see how many complaints have been filed against the officers, how many people thought they were abused by the officers, etc, etc etc. 

If you read what I said, I was just trying to give a different perspective. If the officers would have been bitten, and no one here knows whether or not that was a possibility, it wouldn't have made the back page. Cops doing their job isn't newsworthy. All any of can do at this point is talk about what WE would have done, or how it SHOULD have been handled. None of us were faced with that specific incident at that moment.

DFrost


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

DFrost.
I understand your point of view and I am by no means anti-police. 
IMO 99% of all cops go to work and put there life on the line everyday.
But the one percent are still bad apples. As in every other aspect of society.
As stated in the article.

{"In light of recent behaviors by the Birmingham Police Department as reported on the national news, I find this aggressive behavior under those circumstances to be unacceptable and intolerable," Spina wrote in a letter delivered to Police Chief A.C. Roper and Mayor Larry Langford on Monday."} 

This leads me to believe that there has already been issues. 

Being as I personally have been in a situation were I was attacked and bitten by multiple dogs at one time, and have the scars to prove it. (GSDs) I know what I would have done in that situation. 

Funny how grabbing a gun and shooting because they were heading in my direction just never occured to me.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Hm - 

"While officers were talking to Crawford, said Birmingham police spokesman Sgt. Johnny Williams Jr., the dogs came from the woods and headed for the officers. 

"The officers told Mr. Crawford to take control of his dogs. He yelled for the dogs to stop, but they didn't listen to his verbal commands," Williams said. "While fearing for their safety, the officers drew their weapons and began to fire at the dogs.""

So the officers were talking to the owner.....and the dogs came charging from the woods towards the officers? How does an owner yell for the dogs to stop when the dogs are charging towards the officers....that are standing right there with the owner?

Something's odd here. Why wouldn't the owner reach down and grab the three dogs since, according to the police, the police were there talking to the owner. I highly doubt the owner was 20 yards away or so "talking" to the police. 

How long did it take the officers to fire after they warned the owner to "control his dogs"? Sure the dogs didn't listen to verbal commands, but where was the owner when the dogs were being shot? As previously stated, officers were talking to the owner so how close was the owner standing to the dogs when police started firing?

And I also find it odd that the dogs were shot in the back legs, and the other one wasn't hit because it was hiding. 


I have nothing against the police department or any other law enforcement branch, but this all seems rather odd especially when you think about where the owner was standing talking to the police and the area to which the dogs were "charging."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DFrost, I am not pro-police as most of the people on this site are. I find it odd that you chose to reply to my post as it was rather positive. But one of your statements really rubbed me the wrong way. 

When asked about whether the officer should have arrested the people for swearing at them, you said they would have their day in court. This sounds just like a some police officers who do not consider the entire circumstances. 

They took the owner and the owner's companion. Who was left to care for the injured and hiding animals? 

If these people were shooting at the officers or dealing drugs that is one thing. If this person was distraught about their dog being shot that is another. And lastly, I have never EVER heard of someone being arrested, taken away and booked, for failing to observe the leash law or allowing their dog to run loose. 

I am one of the toughest people on people who let dogs roam freely, but I feel THAT was completely out of line. No I wasn't there. But I can imagine how I would be if I knew my dogs were shot and bleeding and I am sitting there getting finger printed and waiting for "processing" to be complete.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Firstly, I didn't directly reply to anyone. I just clicked a tab that says "reply". As for my statement; when an officer takes enforcement action against a person or persons, they do have their day in court. How does that rub you the wrong way. The police knew that before they arrested the couple. The couple, if they didn't know, they were certainly told when they were arraigned. Was their a need for arresting them? I don't know, I wasn't there. I somehow doubt however, they were arrested just because the person swore at them. I know that's what the meida said, but in my experience, they don't always reflect the truth. 

DFrost


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LEO's are supposed to keep the peace, diffuse situations, and maintain their professional demeaner. 

Shooting the dogs may have been an attempt to keep the peace as a call had been made about loose dogs. 

When they shot at the dogs, they should have been prepared for a few wirty dords and some emotion. 

It does not sound like they were able to manage this part of their job. 

The fact that this artical suggests that this is not the first time the department was criticized for its use of force is telling. 

There are some people out there that will ALWAYS take the LEO's side on EVERYTHING. Me I figure they are just as human as the rest of us, make mistakes, over-react at times, do stupid things sometimes. I also think that their position leaves them wide open for making bigger mistakes in judgement as well as how they manage the power they gain by the position itself. 

If these were three GSDs, nobody would have even questioned their actions. If they were pit bulls, the media would of certainly noted that fact. They may not like the police in Birmingham, but pit bulls everywhere take center stage when they misbehave.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Here in Ohio so long as your dog is under your reasonable control, you do not have to have the dog leashed to you. When I practice off-lead, it is usually in town at night. I see police a lot -- not a whole lot to do after the sidewalks are rolled up. If one steps out of their vehicle, I better grab a hold of my dog or they may just shoot it.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Dunno, I've had a cop threaten to shoot my dog, when she was sitting with me holding her collar with her tongue lolling out.. In a park, with a frisbee in my other hand.

A 40lb lab border collie mix..

I've seen a video of cop shooting a golden retriever that was obviously approaching him for a greeting and pet, tail wagging and all.

Some folks even cops are either irrationally scared of dogs, can't read dogs intentions or something. Stuff like that can and will happen if you dog is off leash.

Who knows what really happened in this case? Surely none of us.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

It was in Ohio a man was charged with killing a police dog that was lose, in his yard. He was exonerated as I recall. Strange things happen though. If you read my posts again, I think you'll see I wasn't defending the police officers actions. I was only giving another perspective. Sometimes one-sided arguments aren't very nice. I was pretty clear about saying I didn't know if the actions were justified or not, I wasn't there. One thing I've learned while being in law enforcement for so many years. There are always three sides to a story; yours, mine and the truth.

DFrost


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: TxRiderDunno, I've had a cop threaten to shoot my dog, when she was sitting with me holding her collar with her tongue lolling out.. In a park, with a frisbee in my other hand.


That's really interesting. did the officer just pick you out of a crowd. Did he just walk up to you and say: I'm going to shoot your dog. Why was he in the park that day? Was your dog the only dog in the park? Was there another dog that had been chasing a frisbee bite someone in the park that day. Interesting is all, just wondering.

DFrost


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

I think we all need a down stay to cool off before the mods get after us! 

DFrost I hope you did not misinterprate my meaning. I was not trying to insult anyone. If you did then I apologize but stand firm on my asumption.

I think it's safe to say that we agree to disagree.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Is there more to this story other than the article in the OP? If not, the implication that all the owner did was cuss at the officers came from her attorney. Were there others around where it seem that there may a "unruly" behavior that needed to be diffused? Did the owners get in the face of the officer? There is too much unsaid and not anything said from an impartial party.

As DFrost said it will come out when/if the owner have their in court. The "if" in that last sentence is since the whole thing could be dimissed before it even gets that far. 

Yeah, there probably are systemic issues with that police department - it wouldn't be the first one. But the two specific officers in this case also deserved their "day in court" so that the complete story/their side can be heard as well. 

Was their call in the split and short time frame appropriate or not based on the information they had in hand and what they observed prior to shooting? Not enough information or impartiality in the storytellers (yet) to come to any conclusions or assumptions at this point.

Easy to jump to conclusions but we can't be/have a fair jury unless all information is on the table.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: crabbyI think we all need a down stay to cool off before the mods get after us!
> 
> I hope you did not misinterprate my meaning. I was not trying to insult anyone.
> 
> I think it's safe to say that we agree to disagree.



I see no reason for mods to get involved. No one has called names or became ugly about this discussion. There are differing opinions, as there are in many discussion. It may have even got a little heated, not that much though. It's a passionate subject and posters should be able to become passionate in their responses. It hasn't degraded to name calling.

No need to apologize. Rest assured, you've not insulted me. I'm pretty darn hard to insult or anger me in person. In a discussion forum it's near impossible. thank you for the thought though.

DFrost


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