# Here's another good reason why I hate coyotes



## Crabtree

I'd rather face a wolf in the bush then a darn coyote the things are too used to people.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/10/27/ns-coyote-attack.html?ref=rss#socialcomments


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## VectorSketcher

Wow, I had no idea Coyotes were that aggressive, I wonder if there was a chance they were rabid or something? Probably not since it was two of them attacking. Scary, I hope the girl will be ok.


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## Raziel

I saw one the other night!
It ran right in front of my car!!!


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## Crabtree

It's gotten so bad around here I don't want to go for a walk with the dogs after dark. The cat used to go down the road to catch mice now she just hangs around close to the house. 
You can hear the darn things yipping in the field behind the house.
AUHHH!


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## JerzeyGSD

That's so scary!


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## tuco

Coyotes are brutal killers. Before the premature death of my little pard, he was the top coyote hunter on the plains of Western Kansas and SE Colorado.
The ranchers have to use coyote hunters to keep them from destroying their calves.
The Coyote Hunters use Greyhounds as chase dogs, and then use a kill dog to end it.
http://www.varmintal.com/attac.htm


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## Chicagocanine

One of my neighbors walks her dogs before dawn, and she saw a coyote wandering down the street one day while she was walking one of the dogs. It paid no attention to her or her dog thankfully.

There was also a news article about a woman whose dog (miniature Poodle, about 20 lbs IIRC) was attacked by a coyote while she was walking it ON LEASH in a mall parking lot about a mile from my house. The coyote grabbed the dog and would not let go. The woman finally beat it off with a shopping bag. The dog was injured but recovered. That happened a few years ago. 

There was a recent study about urban coyotes done here in Chicago. 200 coyotes were caught and tagged within Chicago for the multi-year study. The researchers estimated there were several hundred up to a thousand coyotes living in Chicago! They found that coyotes were everywhere in the city.

I guess it shouldn't have been as much of a surprise then when a coyote wandered into a Quiznos in the middle of the city (in the Loop, what is often referred to as downtown) a year or two ago... It was a young male. The coyote just sauntered right in and hopped into a drink cooler for a rest! Animal Control was able to safely trap it and release it elsewhere.










I guess you could say he was "chillin'"


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## Crabtree

Why didn't they just shoot it?
Instead they drop it off to be someone elses headache.


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## Crabtree

Driving down the main street in a town up north it was 12:30 on a friday afternoon and there was a coyote standing in the middle of the road. Didn't care that there were cars swerving around it.


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## sagelfn

I didn't see if it said the woman would be ok or not other than the bites were "serious"...I do hope she's ok...that being said....

I guess I'm the only person who likes/has a respect for coyotes. This wasn't even some wild attack where the coyotes were in her yard or town...she was hiking in a National Park. Predators live and hunt there its a risk you take when hiking outdoors. No telling how starved those coyotes were to attack a human...coyotes attacking humans are far more rare than dog attacks. I get why farmers hate coyotes but I don't blame coyotes for looking for a free meal either. Are you guys aware that there are coyote killing contests? that is sick....Do you guys know about Charlie the coyote? check him out here The Daily Coyote I'm not sure if the 1st posts are there or her old site HERE


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## Crabtree

All is well and good with Charlie I am sure. Someone made a pet out of a wild animal. Why else would it be wearing a collar.
The key word here is WILD. 
Charlie is a good example why things are screwed up. Coyotes have been breed with a naturall ability to avoid human contact.
But you get some wahoos that want to play Disney land and alter the fear.
What you get is a race of predetors with no fear instincts and then they are in your face. These are still wild animals and should act like them by avoiding humans.

If these animals were acting normal they would have walked off in the other direction instead of attacking the woman.

I have spent alot of time in the wilds in BC and here is Northern Ont. and I've always said that I would rather run in to a pack of wolves instead of a pack of dogs, because wolves will turn and leave where the domesticated dogs could attack because they have no fear of humans. I will now add the coyotes to this list of dangers.

As for the coyote killing contest. They used to have a bounty here on coyotes but because of bleeding hearts they took it off. Now the balance is out of control. Coyotes are everywhere, there is a greater risk of being maimed by these animals. Plus loosing pets. As I mentioned above, it's now too dangerous to walk down the road after dark.
I am not invading there territory they are invading mine. I live in rural Southwestern Ontario not in a national park.


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## Dainerra

In WV, sadly, there are tons of Coy-dogs. half dog/half coyote. so, if a pup was born to a domestic dog, it would probably have a collar. BUT, they are the worst of both worlds. not even remotely afraid of humans, wild, etc etc

they have attacked people. will even enter people's houses for food. they run in packs and will snatch food right out of your hand.

a friend had a relative lose a small dog to them. it was let out on a runner to potty. the dog ran to the door and before they could even get it open, the coys had grabbed it off the porch. they ran outside but the dog had had it's neck broken from them trying to rip it off the cable.

the wild coyotes are picking up these habits as well. a dog breeds a female coyote or even joins up with them. they quickly learn that humans = easy food. they are already used to the sight of people everyday so there isn't much to overcome as far as fear.


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## Crabtree

SHE DIED! I just heard it on the radio. I'm still looking for written details.


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## Crabtree

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/10/28/ns-coyote-attack-died.html


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## RebelMoonGSDs

Sagelfn, you're not alone. I can understand people's fear and dislike of coyotes, as well as a farmer's reason. One thing that I wonder is that they don't state the gender of the killed coyote...so is it possible it was a breeding pair and the male was trying to protect his mate?

My ex told me that yesterday he shot at a coyote. He was hunting and knew the area was home to coyotes, though he'd only seen their tracks before. Three approached him from the brush, one acting aggressively. He took a shot at the one who was "alpha" and all three took off. He is pretty sure he didn't kill the coyote, and when he went back to the area during daylight hours, there were no signs of blood. But the point is, he was in their natural environment. People take chances.

I admire and respect coyotes. They are masters of adaptation. In my area, there used to be a lot of woods. Since I've been here (12 years) I've watched at least two large areas of woods be destroyed to build elderly housing and houses. And more and more people are saying "I see coyotes so often." I want to say to them, "Guess what, they've always been there...but now you live where they used to have their homes." I don't...but I want to.

Also, there are TONS of stray cats in my neighborhood. I don't know why, but it seems like the place to ditch your un-altered kitty. I've noticed the numbers going down the past few years. I've seen more than a few coyotes, and can do the math. Am I sad that there are kitties getting eaten, and do I fear for my two outdoor rescues? Yes! But in it's own way, nature is trying to find it's own balance again in my area.

I loved that website, by the way, and sent it to a friend who loves everything and anything coyote. 

I took too long to post, apparently. So I'll add this:

Hybrids of any mix are usually a very, very bad idea, intentionally or unintentionally. Do I feel that something needs to be done to control these mixes? Oh yes, very much so. But also think of it this way: Responsible dog owners should alter their pets to help control this situation!


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## Crabtree

Coyotes have been around for ever sure, but there used to be a bounty of them untill the bleeding hearts started whining that they are 'top precious and it's there home...." now they is an unhealthy population and they are encrouching on our territory. 
May I refresh your memory and ask that you read chicogocanines post more carefully.
Does that picture really seem normal to you? Would you let your 4-5 yr old open that cooler door to get their own pop?
These coyotes in 'the wild' have no fear of humans because all of their reletives are hanging around humans because the population it too crowded. 
If these werer normal animals they would have slinked off into the bush until the human past. Then come out again. There should not have been an altercation.
As for protecting it's mate in season????? Give me a break.
Turn the TV off stop watching Disney world and start living in the real world. 
A human life was just lost and all you people can do is side with the coyotes????? What is wrong with this picture?


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## JakodaCD OA

so sad for this woman and her family.(

I have coyotes around here, alot of missing cats, people just don't "get it" that coyotes will eat your cat if given the chance. (we have fishers to , they also attack cats)

I walk alot, and the past couple of evenings (not after dark!) I've run into a big healthy coyote hunting in the fields near my house. He/She isn't close, but close enough to know that my dogs and I are near , and close enough for ME to see him pretty well too..


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## BlackPuppy

That's just awful! I am not a fan of coyotes. And since they've taken up residence in my area, there are a lot fewer rabbits for the hawks to eat.


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## RebelMoonGSDs

I'm not saying that it's not terrible that a woman lost her life, I'm also not saying that coyotes should be in a convenience store! 

The idea of a coyote possibly protecting it's mate isn't "Disney channel" but thank you for being so polite about it. I'm not trying to start a fight here, just trying to post an opinion, an alternate side, and I'm sorry if that steps on your toes. 

Also, I'm not saying that coyotes should not be hunted at all, and allowed to breed out of control. What could, and should, be done, is a controlled effort by your local government, or whoever dictates these things in your area, to have seasonal hunts on coyotes with *limits*. If they'd find out (aprox) how many coyotes live in your area, and seek to eliminate part of that number to control it without completely destroying the entire population, that would be a much healthier situation. Yes, coyotes are losing their fear of humans, but it's become part of their survival since both of our numbers are increasing. 

Crabby, I have to ask- did they stop offering money on their heads but still allow them to be hunted? Or have they stopped allowing hunting them completely? 

Again, not saying it's okay that they attacked and caused the death of a woman. Just stating an opinion and an option.


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## GSDolch

Depending on the area, they have coyote season, I have an uncle that use to go coyote hunting duing it.

I like how people like to blame nature for things. I am sorry that the women lost her life, but how many would say the same thing if it were a bear or a couger or a pack of wolves?

I think its funny, people move into wild animals terroritory and then are surprised when they are there.

Just because someone has wild animal, doesnt mean they are a pet. Ever heard of a rehaber? But I guess they would just be bleeding hearts? Please....

If humans are going to live with nature, there has to be balance of some sort formed. No a coyote shouldnt be in a store, but at the same time I fail to see how the coyote can be held at fault for adapting to its surroundings.

And people need to realize that when you go out into nature...you just might find it!

But that might be to much common sense for some people in the world.


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## aubie

I'm all for controlled hunting to help with the population...it works with deer/elk/etc I don't know why it wouldn't work with coyotes. I don't know if there's a "season" here per say, I do know some of the guys kill them during deer hunting season--I don't just cause I don't see a problem with a coyote in the woods, but a management plan is needed before people just start blasting away--that's what causes species to become endangered.


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## Crabtree

"Sigh" I lived out on Vancouver Island in some very secluded areas. I have been close neighbours to a lot of wild animals. 
Bears were very frequent visitors in the surrounding forested area,( I'm scared of bears!). Wolves lived on the mountain slopes, and every morning when I went down to the creek behind the house to get a pail of water I would see fresh cougar tracks. We both knew where the other was and we shared resources (creek) but not 150 ' away was my chicken coop, turkey pen and pig pen. Very easy pickings for a hungry animal.

I was never bothered because these were healthy wild animals which when approached would silently melt into the wilderness. 

Just last year on Manitoulin Island I was lucky enough to encounter a timber wolf. These magnificent creatures quickly, turn off and disapear into the trees. They are not the ravenous creatures that, YES I WILL SAY IT> Disney world has made them out to be. Wolves are very shy.

But a coyote. Is a whole different ballgame. They have skirted our footsteps for many years. They are a very oportunistic animal. 
Yes urban sprall might be a problem but this has been going on a long time. The woman who died was not in and urban sprall enviroment, she was in a national park.
It is not normal to be attacked by a wild animal in this way. But thats a coyote for you. 

Rebel. I appologize, I quess I was getting a bit cranky with out my morning coffee. I don't want to see them exterminated I want to see them hunted and gotten back under control.

As for the hunting. Years ago they use to have a tag system were you shoot the animal and bring in an ear or what ever and you would get paid the bounty. But they stopped it about 20 years ago.
Now only a select few are allowed to hunt them. They are people that you have to hire to come down to hunt them and he charges you so much for coming down and for every animal he kills.
So as you can imagine there are not many people willing to pay him for his services.
There is a farmer not far from here who lost 6 lambs this spring. He only has a small flock of twenty five sheep so that is a huge blow to his income.
He did have guinee hens and geese, and ducks but there are only a few ducks left that sleep out in the middle of the pond on a raft.
The cat population never seems to grow much even though the females are forever expecting a litter.......
That is just one farm. 

And to my favorite Kitchen Witch. Yes when you go out into nature you HOPEFULLY will find it. But it shouldn't be so de-sensetized that it has forgotten how to be a wild animal.


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## Crabtree

> Originally Posted By: aubieI'm all for controlled hunting to help with the population...it works with deer/elk/etc I don't know why it wouldn't work with coyotes. I don't know if there's a "season" here per say, I do know some of the guys kill them during deer hunting season--I don't just cause I don't see a problem with a coyote in the woods, but a management plan is needed before people just start blasting away--that's what causes species to become endangered.


Good point. I also don't want to see a bunch of wahoos blasting away. That is not what I'm trying to say. We need to restore the balance.

A good example. Up on Manitoulin Island they use to have a spring bear hunt. I don't remember why they decided not to have it anymore but about 8yrs ago they stoped. Now there has been a population explosion of bears and the bears that are there are being displaced by other bears so they have to move over and in turn are displacing other bears. So it's a chain reaction. 
I live in Southwestern Ontario. Two years ago they started having sightings of bears down here!!! 
Back up on the island I was reading inthe paper where a guy had his drink sitting on the picnic table on his back porch. He went in the house to get something and came back out to find a bear sitting at the table licking his drink up. This was on a hot sunny afternoon in the middle of town.

Like it or not, we as meaning the human race have put out and moved a lot of everything else to make room for ourselves. It's a sad fact, but it's the way things are now and we have to keep the balance in check or pay the concequenses like watching your two year old being dragged away with it's head inthe jaws of a coyote.


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## Crabtree

Most recent story
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091028/entertainment/ns_coyote_attack


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## TxRider

> Originally Posted By: crabbyIt's gotten so bad around here I don't want to go for a walk with the dogs after dark. The cat used to go down the road to catch mice now she just hangs around close to the house.
> You can hear the darn things yipping in the field behind the house.
> AUHHH!


Yup and a pack of them will kill large dog, and take a cat without blinking.

I live in the asphalt jungle, old suburb that is far within the city, and there is one taking cats in my neighborhood.

They used to pay a bounty for them in many areas of Texas, dunno if that's still the case much though.


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## Crabtree

I just recalled a memory of 23 years ago when we first moved here. My DH had a little scottyx and like most terriors she didn't know she was a little dog.
It was at dusk and I heard Brandy outside growling and barking. I ran outside to see what was going on and when I was running up the path around the house. Brandy came racing off in the other direction. It took me a couple of steps to slow down and just then I was at the corner of the house. There was a coyote right in front of me on the path. I gave a small. 'yike' the coyote gave a small 'yipe' and we both turned and ran in the opposite directions. 
I wonder what would have become of the little dog if I hadn't come out side when I did?


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## LARHAGE

I DESPISE Coyotes, I live in the high desert in a secluded area that is over run with rabbits and squirrels etc.. My property is completely fenced in, yet a Coyote one night jumped my fence and killed my little Chihuahua who was innocently playing on the other side of my barn, less than 50 yards from me, they later added my 3 barn cats and mangled my bunnies by tearing a hole in the bottom of their hutch and dragging them through to a horrible death, so yes I hate them and feel absolutely no sadness when I see one run over on the road, I always say thats for you Max, my beloved little Chihuahua. I could care less if they are added to the endangered species list. I now have 4 German Shepherds that keep the bastards out, and the aggressive one with no fear of humans, who murdered my Chihuahua, finally got what he deserved from my big male Shepherd, a few winters ago as I opened the door to go out and feed my horses that Coyote took off from inside my property AGAIN, he tried to make it back over the fence, this time it was his turn, he tried to cut through the horse stall and the gelding in the pen chased him right into the path of my Shepherd, Prince who is built like a brick shithouse, he caught him,and my female joined in and they quickly made amends for Max. I was as happy as [heck], and haven't had another in the yard since than, I see them everyday, twice a day, but now the $%#kers have a fear of me and mine!!!!!


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## Crabtree

Max. I'm so sorry to hear such a tragic, senseless death.
Good boy Prince! Glad he wasn't also hurt in the incident.


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## Jax08

We have coyotes coming back in our area. DH said he heard several of them in the back field a few days ago. He'd never heard them so close. Elmer Fudd, aka DS, and his posse were going to go out hunting them one nite but never did. I don't like the idea of them being that close and we live way out in Neverland, PA. I've been told for years that the game commission brought cougars back in too. Guess we'll see about that.


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## APBTLove

Wow. I'm surprised all of you 'dog lovers' could actually hate an animal for being an animal. What do you expect? We are taking up so much of their land and then we have the nut jobs feeding them, actually capturing pups and keeping them, and ect. 

I can never hate a animal, species, or anything less than human. They are at least being true to what they are, smart, strong, and hungry. Murder is for humans, the coyote didn't 'murder' your dog... He was being an animal. Your own vicious, nasty animals mauled him to death, so what is the difference? The coyote probably considered your area part of his land, and the dog on it was tresspassing or would have made a good snack. 

I'm sorry for your dog, may he RIP, but to hate any species because of a personal wrong is not using logic and sense. I've been attacked, full out, by cats twice. Don't hate them.


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## Crabtree

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> Murder is for humans, the coyote didn't 'murder' your dog... He was being an animal.


Sorry I have to disagree, coyotes are on species that is know to kill just for the pure sake of killing. In that respect they share a characteristic with humans.


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## Dainerra

I've also seen this many times in raccoons. instead of killing one or two chickens that they eat, they will slaughter 20+ and just leave them.


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## Crabtree

Yup seen that one too.


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## DorianE

Coyotes are such a pain in the rear! I too have seen calf tails ripped off from them, an entire chicken house killed by them, etc. They kill anything they want to kill and alot of the time it isnt for the sake of food. You can hear them yipping in the night around here. We are very rural, even the cities are small and rural. Springfield is about 30 miles to the south of me and I have even seen several fox around the hospitals. Those scare the bejiggers out of you at night when they run up on the porch steps and you are outside. 

I have always heard, parvo was started by the conservation departments as a means to control the coyotes population. Apparently, it didnt effect them and has ravished our pets. Not kidding, around here, ppl sell flock guardians, (donkeys, lamas, great perynese, and collies really like to kill coyotes) to help keep livestock safe.


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## Dainerra

Dorian, you're just a bit north of me!







I've seen llamas as guardians and WOW those things are mean! during the day, my grandmother used to have geese to protect the chickens. they can kill a good-sized dog so make great guardians. 

we recently lost half our flock of chickens. in the live trap since then, we've caught a baby possum, a 35 lb raccoon, and almost a fox. well, the dogs almost caught a fox. we also have coyotes and stray dogs galore. I guess that explains why we no longer have stray cats?
my mom lost 25 chickens and guineas to raccoons a few months ago. in one night!!! there was blood even on the ceiling. 2 nights later, my brother waited up and shot 8 raccoons.

to get back on topic, coyotes lose their fear of people just from close contact. so do deer. it's not that they are no longer afraid, just that their tolerance is always increasing. then, you get coyotes mating with dogs that are tied out on chains and the problem gets even worse...


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## APBTLove

> Originally Posted By: crabby
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> Murder is for humans, the coyote didn't 'murder' your dog... He was being an animal.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I have to disagree, coyotes are on species that is know to kill just for the pure sake of killing. In that respect they share a characteristic with humans.
Click to expand...

So do cats, and many other animals, though cats kill for the fun of it, it's a toy. I've seen dogs kill other dogs, cats, anything for entertainment. They aren't murderers, it's a human term. These dogs, cats, and other animals killing for reasons other than defense and food are not doing it out of malice or hatred.


> Quote: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated mal


But I asked, how was what your dogs did different? If you stick a dog who was never trained or raised with rabbits in a room full of them, chances are most would end up mutilated but not eaten.


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## jake

humans think it is acceptable to kill animals lower on food chain but maybe don't personally do the rip-shake-kill behavior.Maybe something genetic in prey mammals that comes out when you least expect-even humans accept killing if it is a WAR against someone that they percieve as enemy(is it enemy or allowed prey by circumstance?)not big difference between murder-prey instinct-war.


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## TxRider

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveWow. I'm surprised all of you 'dog lovers' could actually hate an animal for being an animal. What do you expect? We are taking up so much of their land and then we have the nut jobs feeding them, actually capturing pups and keeping them, and ect.


I don't hate coyotes, but I also do not romanticize them. They are what they are, competing predators sharing space with us.

I'll take one out if it causes trouble just like a wolf or bear would.


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## GSDolch

> Originally Posted By: crabby
> And to my favorite Kitchen Witch.


Bah, you..you....I cant argue with you know, not ever....













> Quote:Yes when you go out into nature you HOPEFULLY will find it. But it shouldn't be so de-sensetized that it has forgotten how to be a wild animal.


I think that one thing that can be agree'd on is that there needs to be balance and unless one is a rehaber, wild animals should stay wild....

Ok, so, two things.


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## LARHAGE

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveWow. I'm surprised all of you 'dog lovers' could actually hate an animal for being an animal. What do you expect? We are taking up so much of their land and then we have the nut jobs feeding them, actually capturing pups and keeping them, and ect.
> 
> I can never hate a animal, species, or anything less than human. They are at least being true to what they are, smart, strong, and hungry. Murder is for humans, the coyote didn't 'murder' your dog... He was being an animal. Your own vicious, nasty animals mauled him to death, so what is the difference? The coyote probably considered your area part of his land, and the dog on it was tresspassing or would have made a good snack.
> 
> I'm sorry for your dog, may he RIP, but to hate any species because of a personal wrong is not using logic and sense. I've been attacked, full out, by cats twice. Don't hate them.




My little parcel sits on thousands of acres of unencumbered land, they have access to that, and as long as they stay on that and hunt their NATURAL prey they will have no problem from me, they set their hideous asses on my land looking for my animals to eat than they will in fact be mauled to death again by my dogs protecting MY property , turn about is fair play and I'm not going to apologize for it, lets see you have to come home everyday and see slaughter and destruction of your loved pets for no reason other than some lazy Coyote taking the easy way out, there are thousands of rabbits to kill, it's easy to be a bleeding heart when it isn't your heart being ripped apart.


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## Cnel90

Hey guys, I've been lurking on this forum for a few months but this thread has caused me to join and post







(i havent joined before because while I do want a GSD it wont be until I finish college in a few years).

Coyotes are interesting in the fact that this canine family is interesting. First of all lets look at them genetically. Our beloved dogs technically *ARE* wolves. In fact our domesticated dogs are a subspecies of the grey wolf "canis lupus familiaris". So in that sense the grey wolf and the common domesticated dog are the same species.

Now for Coyotes it's a bit harder in general they share the same genus as wolf/dogs (canis) but are a seperate species (canis latrans). In general species that share a genus are close enough to interbreed and are almost the same animal.. Genetically speaking if they can interbreed they ARE the same species.

Anyways my point was for the people here talking so lowly on coyotes keep in mind they are almost the same animal as your beloved dog..just the wild primitive version. When you are glad to see a dead coyote on the ground its like looking at your dogs cousin dead on the street and being happy.

But the #1 issue here is the coyotes range, historically they were only western animals but since wolves have dissapeared coyotes have spread like wildfire. I am 100% for coyote control for the eastern US/Canada. They dont belong here and should be exterminated from here. As for people in the west coast...what can I say. You need to learn to live with them, they were there for thousands of years.

I am actually in favor of wolf reintroduction in some very rural parts of the eastern US (new england, smoky mountains [they attempted this but it failed]). When the wolves who remember are basically the same as our dogs, just the wild "parent" version were reintroduced to Yellowstone the coyote population plumetted. In fact the entire ecosystem became healtheir with wolves reintroduced, moose, deer etc feared eating tree saplings out in the open because of wolves and took to the very deep woods or the mountainous areas, and as a result spruce tree saplings are finally growing (yellowstone had no new growth of many trees until wolves were reintroduced). 

Wolves are problematic for cattle and even worse for domesticated dogs (even a german shepherd would be outmatched by a full grown male wolf), but in general they are much much shyer of humans and stay away from cities, coyotes on the other hand move everywhere and anywhere. You actually have a higher chance as a human being attacked by a coyote then a wolf.


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## sagelfn

> Originally Posted By: Cnel90....I am 100% for coyote control for the eastern US/Canada. They dont belong here and should be exterminated from here. As for people in the west coast...what can I say. You need to learn to live with them, they were there for thousands of years.
> 
> I am actually in favor of wolf reintroduction in some very rural parts of the eastern US (new england, smoky mountains [they attempted this but it failed]). When the wolves who remember are basically the same as our dogs, just the wild "parent" version were reintroduced to Yellowstone the coyote population plumetted. In fact the entire ecosystem became healtheir with wolves reintroduced, moose, deer etc feared eating tree saplings out in the open because of wolves and took to the very deep woods or the mountainous areas, and as a result spruce tree saplings are finally growing (yellowstone had no new growth of many trees until wolves were reintroduced).
> 
> Wolves are problematic for cattle and even worse for domesticated dogs (even a german shepherd would be outmatched by a full grown male wolf), but in general they are much much shyer of humans and stay away from cities, coyotes on the other hand move everywhere and anywhere. You actually have a higher chance as a human being attacked by a coyote then a wolf.


There's a recent study out that shows wolves and moose populations could no longer thrive in some areas they once populated due to global warming







And of course you have a higher risk to be attacked by a coyote than a wolf there are more coyotes and they are in more places...

I'm all for hunting and efforts to control the population of coyotes...but it must be regulated...no sick contests to have people go out and kill as many coyotes as they can with no regards to what they are killing (moms/pups). People will kill a coyote for no other reason than the coyote was there...they are looked at as vermin (i know most of you here agree with that) but you wouldn't shoot a mother deer with its baby but if its a coyote or **** its ok because they are vermin right... Its our fault the population of coyotes is what it is and i'm disappointed that the solution seems to be wipe them out completely where they don't belong and let them have the space thats left...how about some respect for an animal that can thrive virtually anywhere no matter what we humans do to destroy its environment.



> Originally Posted By: LARHAGE...lets see you have to come home everyday and see slaughter and destruction of your loved pets for no reason other than some lazy Coyote taking the easy way out, there are thousands of rabbits to kill, it's easy to be a bleeding heart when it isn't your heart being ripped apart.


coyotes are lazy for taking the easy way out?? thats called survival! why would it waste its energy hunting and possibly not catching a rabbit when it can get a free meal? any predator out there will take an easy meal over a hard one. I'm sorry you've had animals die but you must at some level understand that this is nature and normal behavior for predators....

I live in central Illinois...almost as many coyotes as cornfields here. I've never gone camping or hiking without running into coyotes and I've never been attacked by one. I've been bitten by a dog and a goose, almost attacked by a raccoon, and charged by a buck. I don't hate any animal species for being what they are.


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## Cnel90

But the eastern US is not the coyotes environment. I for one, not sure about other people, support strong control of coyote populations in the eastern US. They do not fill any nich the wolves left behind, they can attempt to but they dont. Their main sources of food are completely different. Coyotes do more harm here in the east then they do good especially when they go into urban areas. The plain states and the west are big enough for coyote habitat, thats bigger then the entire eastern seabord.

I also agree with you, I dont hate any canines or animal for that matter, but coyotes like kudzu should be considered as an invasive species for the eastern region in the US. To make it clear I would not support strict regulation of coyotes in their natural habitats at all. No way! People definately need to respect them over there.


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## APBTLove

> Originally Posted By: LARHAGE
> 
> 
> My little parcel sits on thousands of acres of unencumbered land, they have access to that, and as long as they stay on that and hunt their NATURAL prey they will have no problem from me, they set their hideous asses on my land looking for my animals to eat than they will in fact be mauled to death again by my dogs protecting MY property , turn about is fair play and I'm not going to apologize for it, lets see you have to come home everyday and see slaughter and destruction of your loved pets for no reason other than some lazy Coyote taking the easy way out, there are thousands of rabbits to kill, it's easy to be a bleeding heart when it isn't your heart being ripped apart.


I keep my pets safe. If I knew I lived where predators were roaming everywhere, my small animals would be indoors, in the case of chickens, their pens would be well secured. I know it is not impossible to keep a dog type animal out. Herds of goats and what have you could easily be safe by using a guardian animals.

I have lost pets in the past to animals, and I don't have any hate for the animal who did it. He was being a animal, but I learned my lesson.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWb8VD0B64&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbb_nKIy_i4&feature=related

My main peeve is that since people don't like them, they think it is okay to kill them in some of the nastiest ways.
The first vid is a protest against pen hunting, which I also agree is nasty, but I just wanted to show what hunting with dogs like that is.

Bleeding heart? I believe in killing to save yourself or loved ones, or for food. But you see a coyote on 'your land' that might have never, and might never, harm a livestock or pet animal, and justify mauling it to death.

I am not a bleeding heart, I just have a lot more respect for animals surviving on what they can and being true to what they are than I do people. There are coyotes, bears, wolves, and whaever else people have introduced as well in Virginia. Give them their space and take every measure before extinguishing their lives. If it means good electric fences, livestock dogs and llamas, so be it, if I absolutely had to, meaning I had a problem coyote who was getting past well defended pens and protecive animale, electricity and ect. then I would take one out myself, not leave it up to the animals.


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## Jax08

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> Herds of goats and what have you could easily be safe by using a guardian animals.


Guardian animals as in german shepherds? And how do you plan on keeping that guardian animal safe against a pack of coyotes? They hunt in packs and attack in packs. 3-4 coyotes will easily tear apart a german shepherd.

And as far as keeping your animals safe and indoors...well all dogs need to be outside at some point. Are you going to stand out there and protect your dog when you let it out to go the bathroom against a pack of coyotes that have lost it's fear of humans?

I think before you pass judgement on ppl living outside of town, where the coyote is not usually a problem, you need to give some thought to different areas and different problems.

I understand perfectly what your point is but there is no way I'm putting my dog outside as a guardian animal so she could be ripped apart.


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## TxRider

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> My main peeve is that since people don't like them, they think it is okay to kill them in some of the nastiest ways.
> The first vid is a protest against pen hunting, which I also agree is nasty, but I just wanted to show what hunting with dogs like that is.


Those I would bet would be the same types that scream bloody murder if their pack of hunting dogs gets wiped out by a pack of wolves when out setting them on bears or coyotes or deer.


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## APBTLove

Guardian animals like Llamas, ever seen a llama go after something? And no, dogs like this:
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/0...r-working-dogs/
http://bpg.sytes.net/nagazi/images/Image/Archive/Caucasian_Ovcharka_Attacking.jpg
If you can find a pack of coyotes able to take down 2-3 Ovtcharka's let me know.

I have family in places where they have had cats and small dogs mauled to death by coyotes, they also have a 5' chain link fence and free roaming cats. They poison and trap and kill any fox/'yote they happen to see because their feelings were hurt when their beloved friends were killed. 

EDIT
I have given thought, but I have also spoken with many, many people in other states who deal with hogs, coyotes, even wolves causing horrible damage, but they go out of their way NOT to kill off the animals before they resort to shooting them. Which, I might add, is much more humane.


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## Jax08

oh...I wish I were young and knew everything still.


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## APBTLove

*sigh* Thought we were over this? I am stating my opinions and my experiences, as well as the methods I would use and the lengths I'd go NOT to kill an animal.

Another breed I'd consider better than a GSD in protecting herds from Coyotes.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ljh5vpPwigc/hqdefault.jpg
Of course, I doubt any coyote would be dumb enough to come in the area if he saw one of them....

I guess we all have differing opinions, but I'd go pretty far not to kill something, especially if I had means to keep it away from my pets and home. 


And, not to say "Aww, look at da cute coyote", I found this vid while searching for vids of Kangals working and thought it was funny... Such a clueless dog. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFW4w-61hic
Thought you guys might like it.

And Jax, I replied to the message you sent me a while ago, a rather long winded reply, and gave my apologies to you and whomever else I might offend. You said I was snarky with you, if you don't mind me saying so, as I said at the time, I don't have any feelings against you, but you are the one who just posted this with me saying nothing wrong to you:


> Originally Posted By: Jax08oh...I wish I were young and knew everything still.


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## arycrest

In addition to dogs, I've also heard of people using llamas and donkeys as livestock guardians. GSDs are not considered to be stock guardians.

The USDA's fact sheet lists some of the common breeds used as livestock guardians: "Great Pyrenees (France), Komondor (Hungary), Akbash dog and Anatolian Shepherd (Turkey), and Maremma (Italy). Pyrenees and Akbash dogs are among the more successful breeds." 

It also includes information on selecting and raising the dogs for this function and some of the the success the dogs have had with coyotes and bobcats. 

One story relates that a sheep producer in Idaho had a flock of 200 ewes and lost about 12 lambs each year to coyotes. After adding a stock guardian his loss dropped to only 4 lambs in a 5 year period.

The fact sheet also stated, "Guarding dogs may not be suitable in very large pastures (several sections or larger) where sheep are widely scattered. At least two dogs are recommended for range operations or in large areas with more than several hundred sheep."

http://www.flockguard.org/lgdusdafact.htm


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## APBTLove

Yep Yep. I forgot those dogs... They make wonderful guardians.

And holy cow, ever seen a mad donkey? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8oO-GypOLA


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## GSDolch

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> And holy cow, ever seen a mad donkey?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8oO-GypOLA




Yes

Its not fun


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## jfisher

I know this is OT, but it was so funny I wanted to share...

I went to the hunting site tuco posted and explored a bit. I found animal calls of various kinds on this page http://www.varmintal.com/ahunt.htm and when I played the "hurt coyote pup," Anica went absolutely nuts, actually trying to climb my computer desk! I was like, "OK, OK!!! I won't play it again!"









-Jackie


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## TxRider

ROFL, Hope tried to climb in my laptop when I played it, gues it would be good for hunting GSDs too.

She howled at the crank siren sound.


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## jfisher

It is a hoot, isn't it? LOL! I hope more people try it and post their dogs' reactions! I actually felt bad after I played the hurt coyote one because Anika went so crazy!









-Jackie


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## Crabtree

OMG! I just got head tilts from all four! I've never seen that before!

LOL Now everyone is all upset and want to go out side to see where the pup went! 

Warning! Don't play that when DH is trying to sleep. LOL! Everyone was quiet until after it stoped then the barking and looking started. Too funny!

They are still walking from door to door grumbling under their breaths.


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## jfisher

Oh, beware the hurt rabbit one! It's awful and they really do sound just like that when they're severely distressed. I've only heard it once, when I was visiting my mom and her Shiba chased and killed an unlucky rabbit who decided to graze inside the chain link fence. Up until then, I didn't even think rabbits could make a sound. I can STILL remember that scream when Chesney caught it. On the upside however, she's a superb hunter so she dispatched the rabbit on her first bite, right behind the neck. So he didn't have much time to suffer.

-Jackie


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## Crabtree

OH! Try the rodent squeaker. Too funny! Head tilts galore!


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## Crabtree

I just tried the distressed jackrabbit, I didn't noticed that you had posted Jackie. That is awful! I turned it off after a few seconds. The dogs started to go crazy.
I might have to sing them a lullabye to get them calmed down now.

Um, I dont suppose you had rabbit for dinner that night did you?
Last spring the dogs caught and killed a rabbit in the yard just like that and I ran out and dressed it out for supper, It wasnt until I was putting it in a pot to soak that a realized it was Good Friday!
Palla killed the Easter Bunny! LOL


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## jfisher

OMG! Crabby that is TOO funny! 

Nope, I'm not squeamish about that type of thing but we were visiting my mother at the time and there's a snowball's chance in heck that she'd ever let me into her kitchen with something like that! LOL! Hated for it to be wasted, but I took it far away from any roads and left it in a brush area so maybe an animal could find it and get a free meal!

-Jackie


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## APBTLove

I will never forget what a rabbit in distress sounds like, it's almost human childish, very freaky. 

I feel left out, my dogs could care less about the sounds. The only sound that got J's attention was the coyote challenging bark. Though it made him walk away after a minute...


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## Jax08

the rodent got a head tilt and then ignored.
Distressed jackrabbit - nada
coyote howl - holy







!!! Jax just plowed me over to get in the chair behind me!


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## Dainerra

the hurt puppy and pup in distress calls drove both the dogs wild. poor Freya, she is still trying to find the lost puppy I think. she is whining and looking under all the furniture.

Rayden came and investigated the computer speakers and tried to get the baby out. 

the cottontail and jackrabbits got only a headtilt. now if there was a chattering squirrel call, I would have been trampled!


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## GregK

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveWow. I'm surprised all of you 'dog lovers' could actually hate an animal for being an animal. What do you expect? We are taking up so much of their land and then we have the nut jobs feeding them, actually capturing pups and keeping them, and ect.
> 
> I can never hate a animal, species, or anything less than human. They are at least being true to what they are, smart, strong, and hungry. Murder is for humans, the coyote didn't 'murder' your dog... He was being an animal. Your own vicious, nasty animals mauled him to death, so what is the difference? The coyote probably considered your area part of his land, and the dog on it was tresspassing or would have made a good snack.


Ditto this.




> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> So do cats, and many other animals, though cats kill for the fun of it, it's a toy. I've seen dogs kill other dogs, cats, anything for entertainment. They aren't murderers, it's a human term. These dogs, cats, and other animals killing for reasons other than defense and food are not doing it out of malice or hatred.


Yep, even my beloved Malinois jumped the fence and killed the neighbor's chicken just for the fun of it. It's called being an animal.


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