# Rant about conversation I just had



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

I am getting a puppy in March (DDR/Czech) lines.

I am researching my options in regards to what I will specify my training in (Schutzhund, Personal Protection, SAR, Tracking or OB)-the first 3 on the list, are my first options.

Anyways, I just got off the phone with the club director, or whatever he was. 

He was a complete
















I explained that I was going to be getting my puppy, and he asked the lines (and dog I was getting). 

He went on to rip me a new







in regards to the Czech/DDR line for Schutzhund, and also said that they were crap dogs, period. 

I am so














right now. I was told there was politics in Schutzhund, now I am completely turned off.

At this time I am not going to share my breeder, however she is very well recommended. 

Is this common in Schutzhund, in regards to the dog I am going to get (the lines)?

He said West German working lines were the best. I told him I am new, and don't know much, and I don't know what lines are good for the work. However I told him that my sole interest was to work my dog, I am not concerned with breaking records, or anything other then working my dog. 

I don't get it.

The trainer I am speaking with in regards to Personal protection told me about these issues, and I can see why. I may just head that route.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Are there any other clubs around you could talk to? I also want the same line for the same reason, and love the look of black sable. My Sch club is somewhat new, so not sure what the opinion is. Interested to hear what others have to add. I have a breeder in mind for the pup I want, could you pm me yours?


----------



## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Welcome to the wonderful world of Schutzhund Jack! 

Please don't tell the Czech dogs at my club or at my feet that they aren't cut out for the sport. It would hurt their feelings....LOL

By any possibility is the TD a breeder, or is there a "favorite" breeder at the club?

Either way he sounds like a bit of a turd. And he won't be the last one you will meet in the sport.....

BUT there are a lot of good people out there, so don't let one guy sour you!


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Sorry about that!!! Holy Crap! Find another club, most that I have been to are terrific. Even if I had the type of dog they will take I would never train with people with that attitude. 
"YOU TRAIN THE DOG, NOT THE ******** PEDIGREE!"
Good grief. This person's attitude was not so much about the politics of Schutzhund, but him being a jerk.

We have dogs that are german, east, west, highlines, czech, even a mix or two I have seen at our club. Unfortunately this also may speak to his club's training ability. Some people can only train one type of dog. What I call, "If you are trained to be a hammer, everything is a nail" trainer. Do yourself a favor and check out other clubs


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Jack, opinions are like whatholes and everyone has got one.

My 2 cents. I've had 2 west german working line dogs. The male was a total wackodoo that was not an easy dog to live with. Drive drive drive, more drive, throw the ball, do something, do it now. He died when he was 6 so I do not know if he ever would have mellowed.

Morgan is a rescue so I'm not entirely certain she's west german working but that's the general consensus on her look and her act. She was NUTS when she was young, not hard to control becuase she's smallish but she did not settle down until she was 5. Love the girl, she's been a fabulous dog but she had some serious aggression issues, most of them unfounded suspicions that turned into all out pleased to eat you attitude. She's not impossible to live with but I have to be very careful with her around adult humans, especially men, she hates men. She was protection trained by a one on one trainer to make her aggression controllable. 

My 2 east german boys, so sweet, loving but no question they'd step up and protect me if need be. Otto's just a baby and will be protection trained with a PD trainer group, great group of guys who all have east or czech dogs. Luther, he was one on one retrained by the same guy who helped me with Morgan. There were a few situations I didn't even have to say go to him, he just knew when to let someone know they were not to mess with his Momma. One was a neighbor the dog knew quite well who was harassing me over DDH's motorcycle noise. The neighbor had been yelling and grabbed my wrist when I tried to walk away. The dog grabbed his wrist, didn't break skin and let go when the guy let go of me. That was when I knew the $75 an hour I was paying the PP trainer was worth it!


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

My dog is predominantly West German lines. She has some DDR and the trainer was glad about it- Said that the further east the dog comes from _in general_ the more drive and the better for SchH. 
She has trained internationally and titled lots of dogs so I trust her opinion.
There is good in every line, and not good in every line. Silly people.


----------



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

Who needs a shrink when I have you guys/ladies









I just got off the phone with another guy a few hundred miles away, and he is going to try and place me with some other people he knows (closer to my location).

When I spoke with the guy who didn't like my dog, I spoke to him like I was on a job interview (I was very respectful, I am very new at this sport). I even asked him why would he not give a dog a chance because of their lines, he said they were "crap"









I am going on monday to the trainer I have spoken with in regards to Personal protection, basically so I can interview him, and see my comfort level with him.

I feel its right for both parties to meet and find out about each other (in something such as Schutzhund or PP), and that's what I wanted to do with the person who gave me ****. I was trying to find out about the club, and go and check it out.

I live about 20 miles north of Charlotte, I am willing to drive about 1 hour for training (give or take a few).

You all gave me great info, stories, and I appreciate it, and it helps.


----------



## Dano (Sep 20, 2004)

I had a few experiences like that when I investigated the sport a few years ago and decided that it may be just the thing for my dog but I don't think I could deal with the people that treat you like you know nothing about dogs and they believe their opinions are facts. Parents, grandparents, great grandparents of my dog that excelled in the sport meant nothing to some even though they had never met the dog. To me, it seemed that while there are many great clubs out there, the amount of jerks outnumbers the possible good times.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I have extremely limited experience with Schutzhund but I find it interesting and have attended a few trainings. Here is what I noticed: there are some people in it who are the kind of people so common on this board - really into their dogs and really enjoy working with them. They may get a dog specifically with the intention of doing Schutzhund, but their bottom line priorities are that their dog is worthwhile in its own right as well as on the field. 

However there are also quite a few of this other kind of person, who I had not really encountered before in other dog venues - people who seem to look at their dog as a piece of sporting equipment. It blew me away. I've sat there and listened to guys having quite open conversations about how such and such dog they had was "worthless" and they were dumping him to replace him with a better one. Or there's this total obsession with points and it was like it was entirely up to the dog to be good enough, nothing that maybe _they_ could do better. They also seemed to be the ones who kept their dogs kenneled/crated all the time unless they were working. 

In a way, they didn't actually seem to be "dog" people at all. They were into the sport - the dog was just part of the equipment. And part of that personality profile seemed to come with the opinionatedness and borderline belligerance that you experienced.

I was really taken aback. I'm very glad I'm a member of this forum so I know that all Schutzhund people _aren't_ like that and that plenty of them love their dogs and love working with dogs.







Hopefully you can find a team with a training director like that!


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what are Highlines????


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadwhat are Highlines????


I think just another name for German Showlines


----------



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

Pupresq, I totally agree, 

All I want to do is find a good club, and create/build a bond with my dog.

I will be happy just doing OB if that is were my search leads me. 

Since I have a few months, I have some time (however I would like to have a plan in place).

I already have a trainer for OB, Tracking and PP if this is the way I go (he is who I go to see on monday).

I wish I could convince Chris Wild to let me be her kennel hand for the next 2 years














(she is the one person I would love to work with)


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

All SchH people and clubs are not closed minded idiots anymore than all Czech/DDR dogs are worthless POS.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i say get your DDR/Czech pup and do Schutzhund. there's other DDR/Czech dogs that do Schutzhund, don't they? well why shouldn't yours!!!! i say it's a Shepherd and it's going to do all of things you want it to. i know some can do this and some can that. i think all of them can do alot of different things.

i have a West German import. he's from generations of Schutzhund dogs. i wanted a dog with sound temperment and drive and type. type, what's type? my dog is a pet/companion. he's calm in the house and active outside. i wasn't worried about him being to active. i figured through training and interaction we could control all of that drive. i can get him to turn it on when neccessary and be calm when neccessary.

you should find another Schutzhund club. you might have to drive some distance but it's worth it. don't let the pros or the suppose to be pros upset you. enjoy your dog and good luck on that first title.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"By any possibility is the TD a breeder, or is there a "favorite" breeder at the club?"

Betty,

That was my 1st thought. And I like the turd comment - I spit out my wine......

That is why we are now very hesitant to sell to someone who is in a club with a TD that is an active breeder, most of the dogs in the club are from that person. There will be an automatic issue with the dog and there will be conflict bewteen the owner and trainer. Not a good or fair situation for the dog or the owner.

Have seen that happen. The "POS" dog went to an experienced trainer/handler/helper who is also the head of the k9 unit









Now, we ask if the training director is on board and have spoken to a few. That I like.


----------



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

It's funny, after dealing with him, reading, research, etc, I am really wondering if it's even the sport for me (going into it, knowing what I know).

If not being concerned about titles, and all the other stuff that goes along with it, maybe Personal protection, tracking, OB or SAR would be the better route to take







(all I want/care to do is work the dog, and create that bond, like I mentioned).

Honestly, I get turned off maybe abit too easy, but I also follow my instinct.

Note: I am not at all knocking other schutzhund people out there.

I don't think he is a breeder either, at least from my research.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think first, the most important thing that people who are considering doing SchH need to understand is how much perseverance it requires. This is not only so you can endure what you don't like about the people. This is an activity that takes years of commitment to be successful at, even if you don't want to go to the top, you still have so much to teach your dog, and yourself. So, you cannot be someone who refuses to deal with a little adversity. Even finding a really good club won't be the end of frustration and the more you learn, the more frustrating it can get, believe it or not. So, while there is lots to like about it, it still requires a level of toughness both in the people and in the dogs.
As for the people aspect, you have to just let some of it roll off. That is a skill that you have to work at developing just like learning to train dogs. Not always easy but worth it when you achieve the contentment of not allowing what people say to disturb you. Can't avoid the people no matter what venue you choose, they will always be there and in activities that involve animals, you will notice a higher percentage of "control freaks" who just must give their opinion whether you asked for it or not.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I did OB and Agility a long time ago. I enjoyed both, but I was never interested in the competition side of it, I just liked working with my dog. At a certain level I started to find it kind of tedious because the skills I was carefully honing had no real relevance without the competition aspect. 

I _LOVED_ SAR. That was like suddenly all my different interests came together. I love being outside, hiking etc, I loved working with my dog, I loved that it wasn't about an inch or two forging or lagging, it was about finding someone. Suddenly all the extra hours spent practicing meant so much more. I loved that Grace and I were partners. I learned SO much about reading dogs. SAR was definitely the best training/dog activity match for me that I've ever encountered. But here's the thing about SAR - in that venue, to some extent, your dog really _is _a tool. It's ultimately about something much larger than working with your dog and you could well end up putting your dog (and yourself) in danger in the pursuit of those aims. You try to be as safe as you can, but you _will _end up taking some risks, for example working a section near a road, that you would not normally take just doing something recreational with your dog. I struggle with that.

And when you're just there (not saying you would be, just speaking generally) to work with your dog, then you are kind of diverting team resources from the greater mission. 

I wish there were something _like_ SAR but that was more of a dog recreation thing. I bet a lot of people would really enjoy that. 

Have you looked at Dog Scouts? Aspects of it seem a little goofy to me, but it kind of looks like fun.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Jack, if you are interested in SAR, take a look at this thread

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=891217&Main=70150#Post891217


----------



## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

SchH takes a HUGE time commitment and also financial commitment. You also have to have skin as thick as an alligator. 

I don't know about in the Charlotte area, but around here clubs form, theres a huge blow up and then break up and rerform. HUGE EGOS go along with SchH and around here at least, I have seen some things that curl my toes as far as abuse of dogs goes. However, there is also at least one club that I know of that seems to be pretty good, you would just have to go out searching for it! 

If you have the true desire, the finances, the time and can tolerate the bad behavior of some folks, it is a great way to bond with your dog. If you find a club that the membership get along, there is no abuse, they train all breeds then you have found a diamond in the schH world and it is worth driving to that club to get the best training. 

If you decide that schH is not for you, try AKC. I have enjoyed competing in AKC, it can be very challenging if you are competitive to compete against the BC's and goldens. You can do Rally, traditional Obedience, possibly agility if you have a smaller agile GSD and tracking. Lots to keep you busy. Even in AKC, you will find some of the same issues as in SchH though so once again, you have to be a little picky where you choose to train.

If you want to pm me, I can recommend a good SchH trainer that "Used" to be in the Charlotte area, not sure if he is there anymore or not. He is a pay for play but sometimes that may be your best option.


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I agree with Anne/Vandal--venues like schutzhund are demanding!!!SAR also takes a lot of time and commitment. When you get the call to do the search-with lives on the line perhaps- you want to be a team that gets the job done.
I am grateful that I have a great club to train with. If we aren't having a good time in the Big Picture of schutzhund, then something is wrong. New folks, who have a dog that can do the sport, get a year to really try it and decide if its the right thing for them and their dog. It has taught me so much about myself and lifted my dog training to a different level. Somedays I have left the training wondering "what the heck am I doing?" and remind myself, my dog loves this, loves to work and I am doing it for him and my our bond together.
As a new person it has been challenging to my comfort level and hard to say "no I don't want to try that with my dog". My club has given me the space I need make my way. I must say there is no comparing the feeling of watching a strong, tough, courageous dog doing his thing in protection work. It is amazing.


----------



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

I appreciate all the advice given









I think I am going to go a different route other then Schutzhund. 

Maybe it was a good thing that I had this experience before I invested any further time into it.

Don't want to have the appearance of a quitting attitude, however I would rather be apart of something were there isn't all this drama and politics. I also don't need to have people telling me my dog is a piece of "crap".

Once I have my pup, I will have my friend evaluate what is the best line of work for my pup.

My breeder will also do a temp test for my wants/needs and home enviroment, so in whatever way this goes, I will be happy.

For me, it's all about providing my dog with the proper outlet, and the strongest bond that my pup will have with me









Thanks for all the help, much appreciated.


----------



## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

I would dismiss the whole sport thanks to one blowhard. There are plenty of clubs.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Get your puppy, raise it up normally and at a year or so if you still have the desire than have it evaluated for the sport. I have had DDR/Czech lines for past 12 years and very few of them would not do sch work if the dog has owner that gets involved. Will all DDR/Czech dogs go to the nationals......nooooo, but then you are probably not a nationals handler so what's the difference. These dogs tend to have the temperament of dogs of the past, in that they are good solid dogs with drives that are adequate for whatever they are introduced into. Don't be discouraged....get your dog raise and enjoy it, and the rest will take care of itself.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with all the posters, and clifton as well )

I have a slovakian/ddr/czech puppy, and honestly, I don't have the physical time to devote to shutzhund, tho it may be something I'd be interested in.

My plans for her are obedience first (can't live without an obedient dog! LOL) agility , and I'd love to get into tracking with her,,I may also dabble in herding which is more available to me than tracking ..I know at this point, that whatever I throw at masi, she will be more than willing to do it,,however Whatever it is we do,,I want to do something that she "enjoys" doing , if it isn't,,well it isn't any fun..

You'll find your "nitch" there are so many options ))


----------



## 3dogcrew (Apr 23, 2006)

I understand a little bit of schutzhund training.I also understand it is a sport and can see it that way.I've been to a few seminars(without my dog), so I do know its not for me.Ours is agility.
I'm not understanding personal protection training.The differences between this and schutzhund?
I'm not knocking down protection training, as I know nothing about this, and maybe I have a totally wrong idea as to what it is all about, so please don't take my question wrong....
Why does the average person need a dog trained in personal protection ? Just curious.


----------



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

I spoke with this gentleman tonight, and I will probably go check out the club

http://www.southlanddogsports.com/index.html

I figured that I have some time, and I can do some research. The trainer I meet with on monday is my first choice for most of what I want to do. 

I am also searching right now for herding trainers, that is something I have a interest in as well (need to check out that area).

I will find the right sport and people to work with (if it's a club atmosphere).

If you notice on the link I provided, the director is not some snobby A$$, lots of different types of dogs are welcomed









He also said that alot of people at the club are like me, not worried about just kenneling their dogs, breaking all the records..


----------



## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Too Funny Jack.... I was going to refer you to Richard had you PM'd me! 

Good Luck! If you are really interested in SchH, definitely go and check out several clubs, get a feel for what you like. and most importantly, HAVE FUN!!


----------



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

Thanks Tammy









He was a really nice guy.

I think what I will do is once I get the puppy, I will have him evaluated by my trainer first, and then see what job he would be best at. Richard seems like someone I would feel real good with.

I am also taking Jasper to have him evaluated for herding







(making appointment for this now).

I will see what they think, and if he is ok with it, I will give it a try (will have to see how hard it is on his elbows), have to take it slow. 

Thanks Tammy


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Richard's a good guy.


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

You may want to think hard about doing herding and schutzhund once the puppy grows up a bit. Some experienced handlers can do both, but you have to really understand the drives of the dog while they are developing with regards to protection work. It can be done but from what I have heard it can be a challenge.
As for my dog as a puppy (8-9 months and at eight weeks) he was at least exposed to sheep and loved it. At 9 months he was worked with three and did well. It something I may pursue with him.

Good luck and by all means have fun!!!!!


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Richard has a dog from my breeding and has done a pretty good job with her so far. So, I will give the third thumbs up on that option.


----------



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

Thanks everyone,

I am going to check out Richard, and some other options.

I will then decide after I have the pup evaluated by my breeder and my trainer.

Thanks again, no reason why I should stress at this point, LOL, I don't even know what he/she will be good at.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: Thanks again, no reason why I should stress at this point, LOL, I don't even know what he/she will be good at.


Exactly!

But it sounds like the guy you posted is an excellent (southlanddogsport) choice! And one worth checking into!

But like you said, "you have plenty of time to research and choose.."


----------



## laukaouda (Jun 26, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqpeople who seem to look at their dog as a piece of sporting equipment. It blew me away. I've sat there and listened to guys having quite open conversations about how such and such dog they had was "worthless" and they were dumping him to replace him with a better one. Or there's this total obsession with points and it was like it was entirely up to the dog to be good enough, nothing that maybe they could do better. They also seemed to be the ones who kept their dogs kenneled/crated all the time unless they were working.


Ok I have to admit I've referred to Phantom as my most expensive piece of sporting equipment and my favorite. Schutzhund is my favorite sport. I've given up rock climbing, cycling, going to the gym and even hiking to go tracking or to club.

I've been around this board and the sport for a small bit of time and have come across some who would buy and sell dogs as they could not train TO the dog. The handler could not modify his/her triaining style to the dog. I don't consider this a fault but rather a lack of ability to adjust and grow.

On Czech/DDR dogs....I love the look but I'm not impressed with the few I have seen recently. Nor do I think at my skill level that I have enough tools in my box to effectively train one. Is it my imagination or do the young/green males go straight into aggression and have little to no prey drive? I still love the look!

Anyway I've found in life some folks have an ugly competitve side. They are trying to resolve some other issue or defect in life and misdirect that energy into a sport or dog. Back away slowly, don't turn your back and stay away from these folks.

Don't give up on Schutzhund. I have found no better way to understand my dog, help her mentally and physically mature through working together as a team in new stressful situations. It really is a blast.

Good luck!


----------



## lisadpeterson (Dec 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: laukaouda
> 
> Anyway I've found in life some folks have an ugly competitve side. They are trying to resolve some other issue or defect in life and misdirect that energy into a sport or dog. Back away slowly, don't turn your back and stay away from these folks.


Best way I've seen it put yet!









I will be in the same boat Jasper with a Highline. *sigh* What I have noticed though is if you stick with all breed clubs/sports than you encounter it less. 

Herding is fun! We don't do GSD herding but rather an all breed club, hence it is mostly border collies. So while our dogs may not excel like the BC's do, we also don't run into this problem you describe. Our GSD is just a GSD, and we don't get caught up in the politics of lines and pedigrees.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I must have been totally lucky in the first Schutzhund club I talked with (years ago).

I had an American show line dog that had confidence issues and I wanted to see if the sport would help her.

The training director and the helpers were great!! They understood that I wasn't looking for titles - heck, I probably would never show her. But I wanted to try to improve her AND to spend quality bonding time with her.

Neke went on to get her BH and gain a ton of confidence. She MAY have gotten to the point where should could pass a 1 but she was injured and we stopped.

People tend to forget it's a SPORT ... a GAME. If a club doesn't understand that then I don't want to be part of that club.


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: laukaouda
> 
> On Czech/DDR dogs....I love the look but I'm not impressed with the few I have seen recently. Nor do I think at my skill level that I have enough tools in my box to effectively train one. Is it my imagination or do the young/green males go straight into aggression and have little to no prey drive?


As with any lines of dogs, not all of them are going to be superstars. I've found with the Czech/DDR dogs that they REALLY have to be trained correctly and they do mature very slowly. You can only work with what they give you. You don't see most at their full potential until they are 3-4 years old. 

Some of them CAN work primarily out of defense, but I've seen MANY that are absolute prey monsters! I have one here.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:These dogs tend to have the temperament of dogs of the past,


Clifton, could you expand on this a bit? What do you see as the difference b/w these 'dogs of the past' vs the current dogs? In your opinion, is this better, worse or just different?


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hey Jack, get your czech pup and do Schutzhund. Also let me know what club that was that was so ignorant about working line dogs. I'll bring my czech GSD, who is my current police K9 to show the club how czech GSD's work. He is a National SchH level ability dog, that I have switched over to be my Police K9. The guys a jerk, you'd be better off at a different club. He did you a favor.


----------

