# Is it bad that our trainer did this?



## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

I'm sure many of you will say to find a new trainer but, here goes:

She has a Mal that she brought to our training as a distraction for our pup to train around. Good idea.
We were working within a certain distance of this mal and our pup was beyond interested.. it got to the point where we couldn't "out interest" him from this other dog (it was 5 paces away) and then he proceeded to get increasingly pushy, up in the Mal's face and whether the Mal was tolerant or it was the E collar talking - she put up with it.
Until it got too much and she "corrected" our pup - not super gnarly but there was definitely a yelp or two. Or pup was much more cautious after this but rebounded well..

Now, the trainer said that she watched her dog tolerate our pup until she saw it get too much and she said, "Okay, get him."

I feel like this is the wrong attitude.. I mean, it doesn't quite feel right. My pup was being rude but.. I dunno.

It has recently come to light that this trainer is known for being a bit loose - for example, the first time I met her, she brought that Mal into my living room with my fresh puppy in his crate. And had her decoy bark at me in my rocking chair with my pup in the crate behind me.. I was impressed but only because I was SO intimidated and didn't want to admit it. Things like this that you don't always realise at the time.

But I like her and we get on well. And we only use her for obedience because she is good at that but.. man, I need some more second opinions.

_It's really hard to know what your expectations are when this is your first time around._


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

None of that would be ok with me. It all seems inappropriate. I would not work with a trainer with that attitude.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes, find another trainer. Your gut feeling was right


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

where were you guys, in an observation room? i’m trying to understand how you didn’t hear her say it? it’s certainly odd... and definitely not what i’d expect from a trainer.
however...
_with my own dogs_, there have been times that i’ve encouraged my old girl to “tell em!” in a more playful or validating way when she’d half heartedly corrected a pup or looked uncertain of whether i was going to step in.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Fodder said:


> where were you guys, in an observation room? i’m trying to understand how you didn’t hear her say it? it’s certainly odd... and definitely not what i’d expect from a trainer.
> however...
> _with my own dogs_, there have been times that i’ve encouraged my old girl to “tell em!” in a more playful or validating way when she’d half heartedly corrected a pup or looked uncertain of whether i was going to step in.


No, we were looking at the dogs. We were discussing things after and that's what she said. 👍


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I was going to say try to work with her using honesty and your comfort zone parameters but reread that living room scene and allowing her mal to surprise a bark and hold on you, nope, I would find another trainer. She’s a loose cannon and shock and awe has no place in training a pup.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

It sounds to me as if the Mal's correction wasn't out of line. How are puppies going to learn social skills if they don't interact with older dogs in a controlled environment?


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Seems like a bullsh*t trainer to me.
Intentionally, exposing a puppy to that "correction" by a malinois could be a big future problem depending on your pup's age and if he is in a fear stage.
I would move on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

yeah so....No.

Your trainer should have been teaching you how to engage your puppy so the focus was on you, not the other dog. No where was it appropriate to allow HER dog to "correct" your puppy. She should have had her dog under control and been teaching YOU how to teach your puppy that you were more interesting. 

When we have puppies, we work them all in the same room and the only thing we work on is engagement. When we are training our dogs, we take the field at the same time and do heeling, out of motions and recalls parallel to each other. The key is engagement. Not some strange dog "correcting" your young dog.

And btw - How old is your "pup" now? There is a big difference between a puppy and a young dog that should have been under control already. So if your dog is more than 4 months old, I would really evaluate the training you have. By 5 months, I expect me dog to be able to focus on me and ignore another dog. And that's on me to teach that.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> yeah so....No.
> 
> Your trainer should have been teaching you how to engage your puppy so the focus was on you, not the other dog. No where was it appropriate to allow HER dog to "correct" your puppy. She should have had her dog under control and been teaching YOU how to teach your puppy that you were more interesting.
> 
> ...


I guess I assumed he'd develop bulletproof engagement as he matures - not by 5 months?

I've been working hard on not having expectations that are too high :/


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You don’t really need our opinions. You have already made a decision. That isn’t the kind of trainer I would ever have started working with, so I can’t give an opinion. Yes, older dogs can teach younger, but they can also terrorize them and create long lasting fears. However the damage, if any, has already been done.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

😞


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> I guess I assumed he'd develop bulletproof engagement as he matures - not by 5 months?
> 
> I've been working hard on not having expectations that are too high :/


It can sort of come and go to point as they mature. Real generally speaking, 5-6mos shows some changes. 9mos. 1 year. 15mos. I think its a combination of their changing awareness of whats around and their changing idea of how to interact with it. Around 2 if you've been consistent, it mostly all comes together.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> I guess I assumed he'd develop bulletproof engagement as he matures - not by 5 months?
> 
> I've been working hard on not having expectations that are too high :/


I didn't say bullet proof. And you didn't answer the question  

From your post, it sounds like you lost his attention and could not get it back then the "trainer" allowed her dog to come in and correct yours. If that is the case, nothing about this situation was under control. if you've been taught to work engagement, then at a fairly young age they learn that you are the source of all good things. I find that trainers do not focus on teaching engagement. Obedience, yes. But not general engagement and that is a pretty important piece. 

So again, how old is your dog?


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

You may like the trainer, but your dog doesn't. Who are we trying to train?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> It can sort of come and go to point as they mature. Real generally speaking, 5-6mos shows some changes. 9mos. 1 year. 15mos. I think its a combination of their changing awareness of whats around and their changing idea of how to interact with it. Around 2 if you've been consistent, it mostly all comes together.


Yes, that 2 year stage when you suddenly see that you seemed to have done a good job after all and that they haven't forgotten anything you taught them. Pretty awesome moment.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I didn't say bullet proof. And you didn't answer the question
> 
> From your post, it sounds like you lost his attention and could not get it back then the "trainer" allowed her dog to come in and correct yours. If that is the case, nothing about this situation was under control. if you've been taught to work engagement, then at a fairly young age they learn that you are the source of all good things. I find that trainers do not focus on teaching engagement. Obedience, yes. But not general engagement and that is a pretty important piece.
> 
> So again, how old is your dog?


Well, the general idea was to teach egnagement around distractions - hence the dog being there.

We have talked about engagement a lot - she's all about that. We work on it.. I'm still trying to go back to rewarding for eye contact, making it a party around other dogs at a distance and such.

Sometimes Ray offers focus I didn't think he'd have. Sometimes he gets distracted by a female dog that's all of a sudden a lot closer?

But it's difficult. I'm trying my best to raise my first dog right.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think my definition of engagement is the same as yours but since you won't answer my question of how old your dog is so that I can respond with more than a general response which seems to be how the conversations often go with you, I'm going to go back to work. Good luck.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I don't think my definition of engagement is the same as yours but since you won't answer my question of how old your dog is so that I can respond with more than a general response which seems to be how the conversations often go with you, I'm going to go back to work. Good luck.


You know that he's 5 months old.
It's been mentioned a couple of times by us both. 

Thanks for taking the time out of your day to engage with me! 🙂


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

There are two options for working distractions that I use. One option is to work under threshold and build up over time that the distraction doesn’t matter. The other option if you are over threshold is to use effective corrections for the situation and dogs mindset. The first one is usually the ideal. The second one is something I use for focus heel with a more advanced dog. I don’t understand what her plan was other than have her dog correct yours. Anyone who brought a dog into my home and told him to do a bark and hold on me would not have a fun conversation after.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

When I'm doing engagement with one of my dogs I start with other dogs behind a fence that are neutral. My dog on a leash. That way my dog can't self reward from doing what I don't want him to do. Then other dogs behind a fence that are trying to get my dog's attention. If my dog's engagement is good under those situations then I will do engagement with loose dogs who are not interested in my dog. 

End result is he will gladly abandon and ignore a whole group of loose dogs that he is in the midst of if there is a hint I might work with him. Sometimes he will come ask me to work him because he is bored with the other dogs.

Wanna know how nuts I am? I had an intact female accidentally pee indoors on a rug. I saved it so I could train on it before I washed the rug because it was a golden opportunity to work an intact dog around special "girl pee" and teach him that he could maintain his focus anyway.

To me it's all about controlling where the dog gets a reward from, and whether they feel like they WANT you really bad-- my dog wants to work with me more than he wants to sniff pee or socialize with other dogs. So I'm not correcting him for interest in the other things, I don't have to, because I built up my own value to be greater than them. There's nothing as powerful as what the dog wants, in my opinion.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

About the trainer....I do think there is a time and place for a known dog to be allowed to correct a puppy. I've let dogs correct my dogs as adolescents because I think it's valuable feedback for them if it is done by an adult who is appropriate.

But, I'm with everybody else that this training appt kinda just sounds like a cluster. If the malinois was there as a distraction for engagement work why was your puppy allowed to interact with it? Why did the trainer not instruct you to simply retrieve your puppy from the malinois? OR do it herself?


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Sounds like we should have built up to working around this dog rather than jumped straight to "five paces from her."

I get the impression she really enjoys having tough dogs and other people knowing that.

🤷‍♂️

It's hard when you trust the trainer you're working with to really know what they're doing.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@MyWifeIsBoss 
I feel your pain  two of my trainers (I've moved around a bit) have allowed their dogs to correct my GSD puppy, usually because she does not respect their space, which is different from your scenario.

Did you think she had control over her mal?

Right now, my GSD is super-hyped and anxious around my trainer, so much so, that she cannot learn. So we work around it. We let her run for the first bit and then train with the e collar. I think the bottom line is that the trainer likes my dog. I see it in how she pets her, so I trust her, though that initial anxiety on part of my GSD is a bit distressing for me.

Plus, I have seen serious progress in my ACD/beagle rescue.


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

"Ok get them" LOOOOL what... thats messed up.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

the problem i see here is that the objective of the lesson was engagement around dog distractions, so the dogs really should have been interacting to the extent that it sounds like they were. also, this wasn’t a natural correction from the mal... it was instructed and timed by the trainer.

add the bark and hold in the living room.... just doesn’t sound like the most experienced and professional imo.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Once I had two pretty large rambunctious , hard playing pups in the class. I suggested to the class that next week I bring in my teacher dog to show people how dogs respond. I explained what that would look like. No other pups were present at that time. But he was off leash, totally reliable and predictable, and when the pups "attacked" him, all he did was letting out a growl and that was enough information to the pups that they started playing quietly under some chairs. This lesson was very much enjoyed and appreciated by the class.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I would find another trainer before the she causes injury. She should have focused on your dog's behavior before your dog reacted, while keeping her dog from immediate reach of your dog. Sounds like your trainer needs training.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

There is much more to it. I've heard other things about her that are _pretty_ bad. I'm going to mention that I'm not happy about this recent event - I know she's had a hard life and I'm really empathetic towards this. But it really bothers me that she said she knew Oscar Mora very well. Dave Kroyer FFS. And that I shouldn't charge the marker via engagement a la Oscar Mora - as he's a professional trainer and really knows what he's doing. I'm getting grumpier the more I go on.

I'm going to start distancing a bit and out the next lot of money towards Leerburg and the like. And bug you fine people with more questions 💕

I have noticed increased energy towards the neighbour's gate rushing choc lab since the incident but perhaps this is simply me looking for meaning.

Thanks all and pic of the boy to say thanks 😂 (And allow me to brag again lolz)


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

He's a super handsome dog for sure! I completely understand your wanting to not disparage the trainer - kudos for you - and that's not what I meant to infer either. But, at 5 months old if your dog hasn't learned to deal with strange dogs approaching, the last thing you want is a scenario where the trainer forces the situation, and encourages a strange dog to invade his/your space to correct him. The result could be that every future dog becomes a nail, and your dog will always be the hammer. Just my opinion. Good luck to ya.


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> ...And that I *shouldn't* charge the marker via engagement a la Oscar Mora - as he's a professional trainer and really knows what he's doing....


Are you sure you got that bit right? If that is indeed what she's claiming she learned from O.M. she's either mistaken or a liar.






Pic #2 is amazing... clean composition and very striking. Well done sir.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

His dog reactivity is getting markedly worse by the day. People this morning with offleash dogs at onlead places.. I might have to create a new thread.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Oscar Mora is a phenomenal trainer. He is also the two time southwest region champion. He works with some other phenomenal trainers and handlers in LA.


MyWifeIsBoss said:


> There is much more to it. I've heard other things about her that are _pretty_ bad. I'm going to mention that I'm not happy about this recent event - I know she's had a hard life and I'm really empathetic towards this. But it really bothers me that she said she knew Oscar Mora very well. Dave Kroyer FFS. And that I shouldn't charge the marker via engagement a la Oscar Mora - as he's a professional trainer and really knows what he's doing. I'm getting grumpier the more I go on.


Business is business, and you need to do what’s best for your dog and you. I’m not saying you should be rude, but don’t let your personal feelings push you into doing business with someone you don’t want to.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Thanks chuckd - I think this is the point. 

I'm really gutted as it seems to be my dog that's going to lose out. 😭


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Well, the good news is that we now have a very good person that specialises in behavioural/dog-on-dog issues and structure/manners.
The bad news is that the breeder the pup's from is known for dog issues... but nothing else, so, that's good.

I'm just upset that I failed my pup and allowed another dog to correct him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I suppose it depends on what your expectations are for your dog. Personally, I need a dog that can go to a dog show or a vet and not react to other dogs. Seeing other dogs is not considered play time, for the most part. So if a trainer was having me working a dog around a "stable dog" so that my dog could get used to being around other dogs, I would expect the trainer to tell me to correct or control my puppy. I would never expect her to allow my dog to annoy another dog to the point of being corrected by the other dog.

However, if my goal with my dog was to go to dog parks, off-lead hikes with other dogs, camping where the dogs might play with dogs they do not know, and I had no other dogs at home to help my dog understand doggy-language, to teach them when enough is enough, I suppose letting her dog give a minor correction to the pup might make sense. I still think that in all the above scenarios, I would be present and it would be better for her to tell me when to make a correction so that another dog never need correct my puppy. Hard to say what her thinking was. 

Here's a thought. Call her on the phone, and ask her the question, why did let your dog correct my dog rather than tell me to correct my dog prior to that point? Is there some reason/Can you explain. 

It is hard to get everything a trainer is saying when there are pups and dogs and people are right there with leashes, and we are trying to make sure no one eats or is eaten by anyone. If your trainer has a good reason for how she handled that, you will then be able to weigh that, and if she is open for discussion about it, you can ask her if she would be willing to tell you when to correct your dog instead of doing that. Training methods aren't always right or wrong, they have to be molded to both the dog being trained, and the owner/handler. 

I had a trainer (would still train with her but I work second shift and she is mostly retired) that I deeply respect, both from working with her and my dogs for probably a decade, and as a person, and for her accomplishments with dogs. But I have opted out of some of the things she does. And we can have that conversation because there is some mutual respect there. If there is not mutual respect -- and LOTS of trainers are insecure bullying gits for some reason, then there is no reason to continue with them.


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> ....I'm just upset that I failed my pup and allowed another dog to correct him.


Don't beat yourself up over it. Puppies can be remarkably resilient- you have plenty of time to lay down a stream of consistency, positive interactions and corrections, when needed. Failure is an extraordinary teacher.


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## Parkers (Jan 15, 2011)

Remember, dogs are pack animals. You (or your spouse) are the head of your GSD's pack. They trust you as the leader and it's important that you maintain their respect and protect them (as someday they will protect you). NEVER let a person or "their dog" correct your dog. YOU correct your dog and maintain your alpha role. I understand that many allow trainers to do the work, but it is far better if the trainer tells you what to do, and you handle the instruction.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Well, the good news is that we now have a very good person that specialises in behavioural/dog-on-dog issues and structure/manners.
> The bad news is that the breeder the pup's from is known for dog issues... but nothing else, so, that's good.
> 
> I'm just upset that I failed my pup and allowed another dog to correct him.


Not sure I would read too much into accounts of the breeder's dog being known for issues. It could be that the breeder has highly driven dogs in general, and that others have bitten off more than they can chew, to coin a phrase : ) My premise is a good dog is a good dog. We meet them where they are and go from there. My female gave me some of the same issues. She's a beast - literally. Last night she went bonkers on a coyote that was lingering in my driveway (she's in heat)- nearly ripped my arm out of socket as we stepped out onto the property. In that case I am glad she retains the protection traits she has. In general I have gotten her quite manageable, but some dogs will protect no matter what. Maybe you haven't failed at all. Maybe your dog is being protective.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Rionel said:


> Not sure I would read too much into accounts of the breeder's dog being known for issues. It could be that the breeder has highly driven dogs in general, and that others have bitten off more than they can chew, to coin a phrase : ) My premise is a good dog is a good dog. We meet them where they are and go from there. My female gave me some of the same issues. She's a beast - literally. Last night she went bonkers on a coyote that was lingering in my driveway (she's in heat)- nearly ripped my arm out of socket as we stepped out onto the property. In that case I am glad she retains the protection traits she has. In general I have gotten her quite manageable, but some dogs will protect no matter what. Maybe you haven't failed at all. Maybe your dog is being protective.


Thanks. I feel okay about myself again - I gave him my $10 piece of ribeye last night that I was supposed to have as an entrée because he seemed hungrier than usual. 😂

We've got a much nicer and warm trainer, now.


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