# Sticky  rethinking "popular" early socialization



## carmspack

take note of the word "popular"

How many dogs have been damaged by early socialization .
If the forum is a fair , random, sampling , I would say quite a few. 

so let that be the opening salvo to open the discussion .


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## NancyJ

The only dogs I had issues with were the ones I did "random puppy playtime" with. I don't think they learned "proper" dog behavior from that experience.

I was careful with the current dog to only let him interact with stable adult dogs after he left the litter, and now he is fine, even with other dogs acting snarky around him.


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## vomlittlehaus

I really thought I did a disservice to my second litter. I had surgery and was not able to get them out. I really dont think that weighed as much as I had originally thought. VERY sensitive is an understatement. I think that had more to do with it. My singleton I just had last summer I made sure to get out everywhere. Very easy to do with just one. But I also think his breeding had a lot to do with his even temperament. Very social, not easily phased, biddable, total clown.


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## Dudes mom

Just gonna comment on my 2 current dogs because they are the 1st puppies I have raised in years.

If we are talking in terms of early socialization as just "exposure to" (sights sounds etc...), then I consider it successful. Nothing really phases them but I am still careful with them. We have a community of minunites (sp?) who use their horse and cart to come to town when they need to shop. The first time the boys saw one, and it was physically close, I'd say about 10ft from us, they were curious but nonreactive. I think this is because I have always taken them with me places and they have seen so many things.

If we are talking about socializing with other dogs, I haven't done that. Everyone I know with dogs, doesn't have a dog I would want my dog to grow up to be like


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## Lilie

I think forced socialization becomes the problem. When the handler becomes so obsessed with their puppy being buddies with all other canines. I think that puts too much stress on the puppy as well as the handler. Stress = breakdowns in social patterns.


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## Harry and Lola

When I look at my current 2 - they were both taken along to the local dog park at around 16 weeks for socialisation. With Lola on her first outing, I misjudged a dog and he went for her, I have never forgiven myself for that and was careful with her from then on, however there were 2 other occasions where she was really frightened. Her easy going, fantastic nature has prevailed, however her attacks were from large breed dogs and to this day she is not very comfortable around larger dogs - little dogs she loves. Harry didn't have any issues with other dogs, however imo he grew a little too sure or himself and dominant, almost like a bully too young.

My next GSDs, will I take them to the dog park? NO, I don't think I will, as someone else said, I will only allow them around really stable older dogs.

I have seen many a puppy come into a dog park and attacked. When I think about these situations, both owners (puppy owner and dog attacking owner) were at fault. The puppy owners are nervous and this impacts on the puppy and the attacking dog picked up on the puppies instability through nervousness.

My previous GSDs were not taken to dog parks and I don't recall any instability with them.


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## Muskeg

Yes, indeed. I have fully hopped on board the anti-puppy playtime wagon. With my next pup, or if I have a litter, the pups will socialize with their "pack" and stable adult dogs only. I'd vastly prefer my dogs ignore other dogs than get excited about them. It is very annoying to have a dog that blows you off when another dog is around- for whatever reason- reactivity-defense or playfulness. I think the best way to raise a pup is to expose him/her to other dogs but not interact with them. That way, strange dogs just become background noise. If I was raising a pup with no other dogs in the household, I'd seek out stable adults to interact with- preferably of the shepherd variety. But I'd avoid puppy playtime unless it was one on one with a pup and owner I knew well and who had similar views on puppy raising. 

Since we do see off leash dogs every day, my gold standard is to have an adult dog that is OK with a brief "hello" from another dog (less than five seconds), then ignores the dog and moves on. I've found this to be a reasonable expectation and one that works well in the dog social world as well.


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## NancyJ

As far as experiences. We pretty much went anywhere and everywhere. Except for doggy places.


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## Vagus

When I got first got my puppy, I fully intended on socializing him as much as possible, because I thought that was the right thing to do. In puppy school, he was the quiet one. He didn't leave my side and wouldn't play with the other dogs during the designated socialisation time. The trainer told us to pick him up and put him in the middle and he'd just walk right back to me. He did watch them very curiously though and would wag his tail when he saw them playing with each other. It seemed he was just unsure of himself. 

At the beach he would walk flush up against my leg, never leaving my side (no leash) and even tucking in his tail when little dogs barked at him. These behaviours made me think I had a timid puppy who would eventually grow up to become fearful dog. Despite everything online saying socialise socialise socialise, I decided to give him a break and build his confidence at home while limiting the chance of anything traumatising happening to him in the outside world. Now at 16 months he's bursting with confidence! He loves every dog and person he meets and if the dog is snappy he just moves along like nothing happened. I saw the shift from around 6 months on, and couldn't be happier with him. He was clearly out of his comfort zone when he was in these situations as a puppy, and I'm glad I didn't push him too much. 

We did start go to a training club when he was around 5 months old, which I figured should be fine since it's a controlled situation. There are a few different trainers there who have met him on separate occasions and all of them have commented on his great disposition. 

We played a lot of tug (letting him win almost always), lots of positive reinforcement, and limited exposure to potentially nasty situations. Not as much socialisation as I intended, but I'm so happy with the outcome


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## Sookie

Sookie's first six months (after being saved from the streets where kids were stoning her - they killed a couple of her siblings) were at a rescue whe she lived in a huge pen with 4-5 other pups. She interacted/played with the other 200 or so dogs there, as well as cats, kittens, and the family who runs the rescue. Basically running wild and free on a "dalmation plantation" set-up 

She loves other dogs and playing with them, but she only really gets to play at doggie daycare; when we are walking and other dogs approach she is interested but not insane about them. She isn't scared of dogs or anything; she is very intense and energetic but nothing startles her. I don't know if that's from her early days or what but you can vacuum around her and close gunshots don't faze her. But maybe she wouldn't have had any nervousness or sensitivity regardless of her early "mega-socialisation." It's nice though - you can really park the running vacuum next to her and she doesn't care


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## Lilie

To be part of the random sample:

GSD - no forced socialization. Trained along the path of to ignore outside distractions to include dogs on or off leash. The result being a dog who is non reactive towards strange dogs, has no need to be friends with other dogs besides the ones at home. 

Lacy - forced socialization (during Lacy events). Was a happy social butterfly until attacked by another male. I knew this specific male could be aggressive towards other males so I tucked my male (who was on a leash) under my chair before either dog noticed eachother. The male walked past me and attempted to dart under my chair, their owner raised their voice and began trying to pull their dog out, I was kicking my legs and striking the dog and the owner. My dog lost his mind. Now I have a reactive dog to males.


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## llombardo

The one thing I don't agree with is the window people say there is for socialization. Robyn was 12 wks when I got her according to some the window was closed or almost closed. She turned out very well. She had play dates with a couple dogs we knew. Other then that she went everywhere with me. Midnite was much older and had no training or socialization at all, by all means his window for socialization was way over. I still took him places, but he had no play time with other dogs until I brought home the golden puppy and the foster dog , which he did fine with. Both are very well rounded.


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## Gretchen

We went against our vet's wishes and took our dog out early, to safe places. One place is a park that's two blocks away from our house, where we met a family with a Husky that wanted early socialization too, he was one month younger than Molly. They quickly became best friends and are still good friends. Molly thinks the park is her park. She wants to go there every night to sit and be a watch dog. The early exposure to the park really made an impression on her, probably because she has mostly good experiences there. I really don't think any of our early socialization did any harm. We watched her body language and clues to when she was done with a situation and wanted to go home. Molly is a very social dog, its her personality and responses to early socialization probably differ between dogs.

Personally, I think it does not matter - socialization or not as long as you have good obedience because when the adolescent stage sets in, at least for us, everything changed. So glad we had some basic obedience foundation. The early socialization at that point did not matter.

What is probably more important than socialization is being consistent and reliable for your pup. Our previous GSD mix was a rescue, we got her when she was about 3-4months old and had already been to 3 foster homes. She ended up being a great dog, never needed a leash, but there seemed to be an underlying fear or insecurity issue I really cannot put into words at this time.


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## Longfisher

*Foreced Socialization*

My belief is that we set our puppy GSD (now 14 months) back a lot by taking him around other dogs when he was a "baby". It scared the devil out of him and they keyed on that fright immediately.

We're still working on his confidence and trying to keep the fear aggression at a minimum towards dogs.

LF


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## onyx'girl

I honestly believe that genetics are what they are. Socialization is great, but a dog that can't handle it is going to be a handful down the road...and a dog with good nerves that hasn't been socialized all that much is going to be good to go in most situations. 
Isolation or pushing the dog that is fearful are the extremes. My post is about the normal day to day things, letting a pup explore and get out and about in the real world.


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## Baillif

llombardo said:


> The one thing I don't agree with is the window people say there is for socialization. Robyn was 12 wks when I got her according to some the window was closed or almost closed. She turned out very well. She had play dates with a couple dogs we knew. Other then that she went everywhere with me. Midnite was much older and had no training or socialization at all, by all means his window for socialization was way over. I still took him places, but he had no play time with other dogs until I brought home the golden puppy and the foster dog , which he did fine with. Both are very well rounded.


There is a window where socialization gets potentially harder. Never means its impossible. The window is closer to 4 months or so but dogs remain fairly pliable in that regard until they hit 2 or so and then it gets much much harder. These are generalities they are not laws of behavior though.


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## wolfy dog

carmspack said:


> take note of the word "popular"
> 
> How many dogs have been damaged by early socialization .
> If the forum is a fair , random, sampling , I would say quite a few.
> 
> so let that be the opening salvo to open the discussion .


With socialization, do you mean with dogs? If so: I only let him hang out with stable adult dogs that will teach him. He has gotten a good dose at his breeder already. When WD was about 7 months old, he was still being corrected by adults when he met them too rough, but he was very gentle with young pups. I don't think that he would have been that way if he had been allowed to hang out with pups his age when he was younger than 7 months.
I do take them into the world and expose them to everything possible two times a day for short sessions. Further, people visit the house and play and work at home. For that reason I skip puppy class and go straight to the basic class.


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## Wolfgeist

Anyone have any examples of early socialization doing any damage?


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## DJEtzel

It's interesting to note that a lot of dogs (herding breeds especially) seem to notice when we're trying too hard at socializing/trying to build a positive reinforcement. And MANY of them with anything less than stellar nerves, get weird about it. This, IME, can CAUSE fear and issues in them. 

I tried really hard to make my Border Collie puppy like gunfire because Frag is gun shy. It backfired on me. 

I have a friend who adopted a fearful BC/ACD mix.... VERY fearful of men all his life. She tried so hard for the longest time to treat him and make men happy places. He wanted nothing to do with it and remained fearful/possibly got worse. I talked to her about this issue, so she stopped acting like men were awesome/drawing attention to them. In the last week he has approached, on his own, over 4 men... of huge sizes/weird facial hair in some cases, and even crawled into a few laps. UNHEARD OF.

It's like they wouldn't notice the odd thing unless you had brought light to it, and then they get skeptical. "Why do I care about that? This is freaking me out, mom's making a big deal about this, maybe I should be concerned!" and the cycle continues. 

Something to keep in mind.


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## Baillif

Had a gsd puppy come in for two weeks board and train. She was a fearful mess when she first came in at 14 weeks old or so. Fear drooling growling at people and peeing as soon as anybody touched her. I really wish I had taken video of the before and after because she was practically paralyzed with fear of both the people that worked there and the other dogs.

We put her in the yard with 10 other dogs of various ages some puppies some adults. Then put the others in lock down. They were not allowed to investigate her or play with each other. They were to calmly "just be." It gave her the opportunity to realize everything was under control and nobody was trying to hurt her. She started investigating slowly at first. Some would consider this flooding, but she was a baby and has no excuse to not be a dog.

By day three she was playing with the other dogs and enjoying her time in the yard. Her drivey nature was revealed. She was a fiend for kibble and we used it to reward her during environmental desensitization. Spooky loud sudden noises announced food. 

We started approaching her with stupid energy toned down at first and towards the end like people who have no idea how to approach a dog. Screaming her name squared up at her and charging. Soon as we got near we marked and rewarded her holding her ground bravely. She was conditioned to like it.

By the end she was confident with other dogs and people. She could chase and be chased by adult dogs even as many as 3 at once without fear. She played rough and gave as good as she got. Came out of it a different puppy. Took 2 weeks. 

Exposure socialization isn't good enough. At the best your dog makes neutral associations at worst it becomes fearful. You have to take steps to manipulate the experience and ensure it turns out positive. Some dogs won't need it. With gsds many will.


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## onyx'girl

Damage how?


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## LifeofRiley

I believe that the vast majority of dogs that have not had proper socialization as puppies can be properly socialized at an older age in the right home. This also applies to dogs that have had very bad starts in life that go beyond just a socialization issue.

I compare it to learning a foreign language. 

While it is far easier to learn a foreign language when you are introduced to it at a very young age, it is still possible (and easy) to master a foreign language as an adolescent and as an adult with the proper immersion. So, to bring that back to dogs, I am saying that I believe that dogs can learn at all ages and the results will be almost identical to those who learned at an earlier age. 

I also do believe that aptitude for language acquisition is partially “genetic.” But, even when a person’s natural aptitude for language acquisition is very low, it is still possible for them to learn a foreign language. I have observed that it just takes those folks a lot longer - and they have to work much harder - to achieve any level of fluency. Their accent may never be “correct,” and they may always have patterned errors but they can become very effective communicators. So, again, bringing it back to the dogs, I believe that even dogs that have a really strong genetic predisposition toward reactivity can be fine in most daily life situations and properly managed in the few that they have a harder time mastering.


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## DaniFani

onyx'girl said:


> I honestly believe that genetics are what they are. Socialization is great, but a dog that can't handle it is going to be a handful down the road...and a dog with good nerves that hasn't been socialized all that much is going to be good to go in most situations.
> Isolation or pushing the dog that is fearful are the extremes. My post is about the normal day to day things, letting a pup explore and get out and about in the real world.


I agree.

Carm, I have wondered a lot about this recently. I wonder how important exposure/socialization is if the dog is solid. Sure, it may "react" to something because it wasn't ever exposed to it. However, I believe a dog with strong nerve/genetics will have a strong recovery time, and move on once it determines the unknown is not bad. I also expect a "Reaction" in a strong dog to be one of curiosity and alertness, not barking/hackling, etc. Would I not expose a dog to things because it's supposedly got strong nerves? No, because I don't want it "reacting" to everything until it believes they are "ok." Carm, great question/discussion! What is your definition of "socialization?"

However, I'm not sure how important this "socialize with anyone and everything" mentality is, if the dog is solid. Although, I guess a lot may not be able to tell if a dog is solid, so the error on the side of caution would be exposing/socializing. I do believe a lot of owners (unknowingly) go overboard with the socialization, and create problems that wouldn't necessarily have come out. Not sure which is better? Probably guidance from someone who knows what they're doing lol.

Anecdotally, my little guy has impressed me with his nerve threshold. Not a whole lot phases him, inside or outside of the house. Pans dropped on the floor, plastic bags, super loud (unexpected bangs), things falling off shelves, loud trucks, man holes, sliding doors, lumber carts, etc...he doesn't care a lick about them. I've seen him "react" to two things. 

Once walking in the dark and a small ankle biter charged the fence out of no where. Made me jump and he jumped. Other time was at the horse arena, a member knocked over a large horse barrel. Both times he stood at alert, totally focused on the object/animal, and looked "scared" to me. 

Dog: we kept walking and I ignored the behavior. Barrel: We kept working (we were training), I grabbed his leash and we walked around the barrel, me ignoring any reactions. Both times he "recovered" almost immediately. We now walk by barking dogs charging fences and he doesn't even look at them, and the barrel was a non-issue afterwords.

I'll keep exposing him to things, but because I don't see any reactions of cowering, hackles, whining, etc...and a good recovery time with the things he needed to "check out." I'm not too worried about exposing him to EVERYTHING. I still take him everywhere, and he does get to see a lot of stuff outside of club training and the house. However, I'm just not worried about "socializing" him. So, only time will tell if I messed it all up lol. We'll see! ;-)


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## DaniFani

Wild Wolf said:


> Anyone have any examples of early socialization doing any damage?


My experience has been people who "socialize" by forcing their dogs into uncomfortable situations and make them "deal with it," that end up creating problems. *Some people are not very good at reading dog body language, or they excuse a behavior as "shyness" and try and force a dog into an experience it doesn't want to be in. I believe it then will associate that negative feeling with whatever it was forced to experience, or worse, the experience turned into a bad experience (ie bullied by another dog, hurt, etc). 

I don't believe "exposure" for the most part (and if done correctly), can do a ton of damage. However, I don't think any forcing should be involved. I notice people handle a dog exhibiting fear by saying, "oh it's okay, it's okay" while stroking/petting the dog. I think that this encourages/rewards the fearful behavior, and encourages the dog to continue to offer that behavior.

I guess I believe socialization can be "harmless" when done appropriately (not coddling/reinforcing fearful reactions, timing rewards appropriately, and working through any unwanted behaviors positively) with a lower threshold/low nerve dog. It is also, imho, pretty harmless if the dog is genetically stable. It's the unstable ones that I believe lots of issues can be created by inappropriate or forced socialization. I believe appropriate socialization (no forcing, correct timing rewards, positive experience etc) IS really important for a fearful/low nerve dog. That's probably all really jumbled. 

I like this topic a lot! ;-)


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## shepherdmom

carmspack said:


> take note of the word "popular"
> 
> How many dogs have been damaged by early socialization .
> If the forum is a fair , random, sampling , I would say quite a few.
> 
> so let that be the opening salvo to open the discussion .


I had a dog I didn't socialize. I was young and dumb and thought that the dogs and kids and people constantly at my house would be enough, it wasn't. She was a hot mess who had to be managed whenever she was away from home. 

That being said I think the early socialization has to be the right kind. I would never dream of taking my dog to a dog park. My dogs get socialized at places where I know they are safe. At the vets office, where all dogs are required to wear a leash. With friends who I know will treat my dog right. At classes where the trainer has control and knows what they are doing.


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## katdog5911

I blame myself for a lot of Stella's reactivity. Thought socialization meant meet every dog possible....so she had some negative experiences when she was young. Next time around I will try to make sure any early dog experiences are with stable solid dogs....NO DOG PARK when young for me. Of course the charging loose neighborhood dogs are unexpected....And she did have some very nice experiences as well....made some life long friends. Wish I knew then what I know now.


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## Courtney

I have come to cringe at the word socialization. I get it & support it. But for a lot it means free for all. It makes my head hurt when that advise is thrown out there.


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## carmspack

early socialization is very well studied and documented in the classic Scott and Fuller Dog Behaviour the Genetic Basis. 
Unfortunately the windows are not "pliable" . This was the result of 20 years of testing , built on Konrad Lorenz , Trummler , Tinberg's observation of critical times in socializing.
What Scott and Fuller demonstrated is that there does not need to be an overbearing amount of attention or stimulation -- more is not better, correct and sensitive to the individual is better . They worked with 5 breeds and did find that different breeds to respond differently.

this ! 
quote "It's interesting to note that a lot of dogs (herding breeds especially) seem to notice when we're trying too hard at socializing/trying to build a positive reinforcement. And MANY of them with anything less than stellar nerves, get weird about it. This, IME, can CAUSE fear and issues in them"
was a remark in the study !! good observation. 
I think this is one way dogs , since we are talking GSD, can be damaged by that pressured aim to socialize. We have a lot of posters who are shocked when their very , almost too friendly puppy loved by all , becomes a problem , excused as a passing fear stage , when in reality insecure and potentially fear aggressive , or in avoidance.
The "pop" advice is grab that dog as soon as you get him and socialize , meet , (how many?) strangers in a set time. 
Is there a disconnect . You have a breed which by nature should be stranger neutral . Puppies are attention magnets . People will come and "maul" the precious wecious pup - strangers are encouraged to feed the dog . So what happens . The pup is no longer a pup but a dog -- hardly the same reaction . Dog now reacts on his impact on the stranger who is taking a wide berth , backing up , acting like prey , stimulating another internal drive within the dog . Is this being honest with the dog. 

young dogs are being flooded without any consideration to that pups mental age . 
some young pups are over handled , over stimulated in the bio-sensor , without feeling . 

Lack of early socializing can result in maladjusted dogs. On the other hand it is very important how you go about socializing and training or the same results will be the unintended consequence.


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## shepherdmom

carmspack said:


> early socialization is very well studied and documented in the classic Scott and Fuller Dog Behaviour the Genetic Basis.
> Unfortunately the windows are not "pliable" . This was the result of 20 years of testing , built on Konrad Lorenz , Trummler , Tinberg's observation of critical times in socializing.


What age is the window?


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## carmspack

I hesitated many times to start this thread because it goes against widely accepted advice. With the BEST intentions . That is the killer . The people are trying their best to have a good , secure , dog that they can enjoy for years to come.
Dog Parks ? NEVER .
I don't know if Anthony with Kira is still a member , but there was your common experience and results . The dog park , bad experience , with typical immediate overt reaction , which then extends over the long time . Instead increasing weariness in this and other situations resulted.

When someone gets a pup of mine I tell them , take the dog home , be a normal family , and let that dog be a dog for the first year .


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## ken k

Lilie said:


> To be part of the random sample:
> 
> GSD - no forced socialization. Trained along the path of to ignore outside distractions to include dogs on or off leash. The result being a dog who is non reactive towards strange dogs, has no need to be friends with other dogs besides the ones at home.
> .


this, plus no interest in squirrel's, deer, rabbits,


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## Chicagocanine

I think socialization/habituation is important/useful but the problem is people do it improperly, it has to ivlovle *good* experiences. Just bringing a puppy around things/people is not going to be good if they end up stressed out, scared, attacked, etc...
Yes, a dog with "good genes" will probably be ok without it or can be "fixed" later if they are fearful but there's no way to know what's in the dog's genes so IMO it's better to put the work in.

I like this article: “It’s all in how they’re raised.” | Paws Abilities


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## David Winners

The problem with "popular " socialization is that owners often barely understand what the outcome means, let alone how to establish the correct experiences for the dog to achieve that outcome. They often don't know what they want in the dog. How are they to help the dog understand what is expected of it when they don't know themselves.

My definition of socialization is teaching the dog what is normal in life. It is important for the dog to see what the world is about so it can successfully travel through it without stress or overt reaction to normal behavior.

This does not include being overwhelmed at a dog park, being forced into any situation where the pup is not confident that it is safe, forced interaction with inappropriate animals or humans, or any situation where people, including me, are behaving in an unnatural manner trying to alter a natural response from the dog.

This does include exposure to sights, sounds, surfaces, smells, temperatures and situations that will be a part of the life of the dog. There is no reason I want my dog to meet and greet total strangers like they are best of friends, so I don't expose the puppy to that situation. I show the dog that people are everywhere, and for the most part, they have no meaning to the dog. I show the dog that there are dogs of varying trustworthiness in the world, and that calmly dealing with the situation is my job and that they have nothing to fear, nor any responsibility to take charge of the situation. I show the dog that it can trust me and look to me for leadership.

Early socialization is a topic that has recently become very polarizing. Carmen mentioned Bio Sensor sensory stimulation. I have yet to form a concrete opinion on the subject because there are arguments and experiences on both sides of the debate. I think many things can be imprinted on the litter during the very impressionable period that they spend with their mother. Important things being cleanliness, communication skills, bite inhibition, spatial awareness and again, probably the most important is what normal looks like.


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## David Winners

Well, isn't this a popular topic. It seems many are rethinking their approach to socialization these days.

I jumped on YouTube and here this was waiting for me:


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## boomer11

socialization should really be replaced with the word exposure. 

a lot of people think socialization means taking their dog to the dog park every day and letting them play with all kinds of dogs. then they get confused why their dog doesnt listen when other dogs are around. or why their dog whines and pulls towards dogs during walks. strange dogs should also be seen as furniture.


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## llombardo

David Winners said:


> Well, isn't this a popular topic. It seems many are rethinking their approach to socialization these days.
> 
> I jumped on YouTube and here this was waiting for me:
> 
> Socializing a Pushy Puppy - YouTube


I didn't watch the whole video, but I think the question asked wasn't answered. I don't think that the person asking the question was referring to strangers, but to family and friends. Completely two different things. Of course I'm not giving a stranger in my home treats to feed my dog , but I might for family and friends. My nieces/nephew always give my dogs treats. I expect my dogs to love my family and they do. I don't expect them to be that friendly with strangers.


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## David Winners

llombardo said:


> I didn't watch the whole video, but I think the question asked wasn't answered. I don't think that the person asking the question was referring to strangers, but to family and friends. Completely two different things. Of course I'm not giving a stranger in my home treats to feed my dog , but I might for family and friends. My nieces/nephew always give my dogs treats. I expect my dogs to love my family and they do. I don't expect them to be that friendly with strangers.


How did he not answer the question?

He told him what he was doing wrong and what to do to properly socialize the dog.




David Winners


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## David Winners

I'm interested in hearing any first hand, long term experience anyone has with dogs that underwent the Bio Sensor protocol as a pup.

Carmen, if I understand correctly, you believe it places undue stress on the pups with potential negative effects.

I know the military did a series of lab experiments using the protocol and dropped the program.

I worry about cortisol levels in a still developing brain, but I don't have a true grasp on the results of the testing. I do know of a very successful working mal breeder that uses the protocol.

David Winners


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## Baillif

I was watching some special on the discovery channel where they were putting future service dogs through a program like that. Don't know if they ever used a control group. I wonder how much science is actually behind it.


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## volcano

Its a bit of a litmus test, If a dog cant handle a negative situation without it imprinting permanently- dont ever breed that dog. I bring Apache to dog parks, its no issue if another dog is a **** , she can handle it. She handles it by coming to me but thats fine by me. 
Ive been to a shutz trainer who scolded a trainee for letting his dog out of a crate and when the trainer walked by with his reactive dog the trainer scolded saying how harmful an interaction can be and it can be permanently damaging the dogs and so on so forth. In my opinion if a dog cant handle a dog walking by then it should be speutered, thats the worst representation of the breed. And what good is passing a shutz test or akc obedience if the dog is nervy? I hate the way some dogs are trained and led through so called tests that they really dont deserve passing.


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## G-burg

Interesting thread!

Socialization~ I think the general public doesn't fully understand how to do it properly.. And a good bit don't understand how to be a good leader!

I think the handlers cause more harm then they realize in how they react themselves!


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## David Winners

If you are interested in Bio Sensor:

 http://www.vspa.com/k9/biosensor.htm 

David Winners


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## Baillif

Bio-Sensor is Bad Science: Super Dog Failed | BorderWars

Found that as a counterpoint. Not sure about the reliability of the source, but interesting nonetheless. There was a rumor going around the program started up because of some propaganda the Soviets were trying to create a super dog using methods like that for their space program. At that time both governments put crap out like that to try to get the other side to waste money on dead end programs. I dunno though. No first hand experience with it.


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## G-burg

Is this what Carmen is talking about when she says "early socialization" meaning while the pups are still at the breeders, or when then get to there new homes and from there??

And maybe I missed that part where she specially said???


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## martemchik

I went to dog parks when my dog was younger...he was pinned/charged a bunch. Grew up to be extremely well adjusted and is almost too confident. When he was 3 months old, a neighbor's older dog bit him on the nose, he still wanted to play with that dog day after day.

This forum is not a random sampling. Many "novices" only come after they have issues. A lot of people don't realize that genetics play as huge of a a role in dogs as they do. The whole, "It's the owner, not the dog" is an extremely popular thought right now and people believe that any problem a dog has is caused by the owner and not just a naturally occurring genetic issue. I've noticed people LOVE to blame their dog's reactivity on one experience...especially when that experience involves someone else or someone else's dog being aggressive or hurting the dog. The mistake is never "I took the dog to the dog park," its always, "There was this one person/dog at the dog park attacking everything!"

I think getting dogs around other dogs is a very good idea. Most people do want their dogs to be comfortable around other dogs and love watching dogs play together. It might not have to be random dogs, but it could be a friend's dog or dogs and they want them to get along. Or who knows if in the future they meet someone else and they have a dog, its nice to be able to invite others over with their dog and have the animals play together or at least accept each other.

Most times, this involves good, controlled, early socialization. I'm not saying it needs to be a dog park, but my club holds a free "puppy class" until dogs are 6 months old. Young dogs get to run around and play with each other. You really get to see the natural drives and nerves of the dog in that situation. A timid 3 month old around other 3 months old is probably going to stay timid. Has nothing to do with experiences at that point, its just the genetics of the dog.


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## David Taggart

Yes, the social structure of our human society is very similar to any social creatures' group, wether it were the dogs, horses or elephants. Each of mentioned need a leader in their group, and need their own territory. Even our young are brought up similarly by their parents. But such programmes tend to install human qualities into dogs. Dogs, unlike humans, are completely deprived of this phenomena, actually typical to any human, at least at certain age, or at least once in their lives:Consequential strangers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. This phenomena partly explains why we are looking for a contact with aliens, for instance, like we are missing something inside ourselves...Our wish to find our origin doesn't explain the wish to meet new people. *This aspect is still very dark for human science*, nobody answered yet, why we humans, so territorial creatues want to meet a new person, what sort of pleasure English speaker may have by speaking to a badly talking foreighner? But he does enjoy this yack, why? Yet, many tend to "socialize" dogs by creating similar situations with other dogs and unknown children.
Unlike humans, dogs are much more self-sufficient creatures. Don't think that the group dogs in a doggy park create a pack. No. Some of them are even brought there forcefully, and wouldn't go there themselves. That are the owners mainly who enjoy themselves after work, and their young pets exercise their hunting skills. In a true pack dogs live together, they eat and sleep together, not saying anything about their relationship. "Civilized dog", "biting gently", "good manners" and all such terms swing around and pronounced by people who do not want to know the true nature of their pets, do not read much, they are the bearers of hypocriticism.
In fact, your dog doesn't need meeting unknown dogs or people at all. It is not in their nature. It would be more wise to compare dogs with wolves, as their closest relatives about socialization to bring them up in harmony with you and themselves, than with humans in order to make them human like. Honestly, by concocting such programmes the amatures create problems! Three months wolf would be killed by other wolf pack if run on their territory, many young dogs exhibit fear when meeting unknown dog absolutely naturally, but their owners drug them there anyway. Among all existing doggy parks only puppy parks are good for your puppy, because they replenish something your puppy was deprived from - that is his sisters and brothers company and play. It is unnatural for young wolf to leave his own pack untill he's 2 and half years old for any reason, he is still even cannot hunt on his own. But he needs friends, what are the other members of the pack. But, wolves are shy and self-protective creatures, and dogs are brave and friendly. Still, they need the same - that is why it is recommended to find 2-3 of such friends, thus replacing the pack members, and stay with them over years.
That, which concerns the strangers and their children normally is completely misread. The owner of a young puppy watches with a delight how "nicely" his puppy meets new people and their kids, jumps on them, rolls on the ground, runs after laughing child! Then frowns, if later his puppy rips a sleeve, very much surprised if the puppy, being so "friendly" earlier on runs towards some unknown dull person and barks agressively, then puts prong on him and starts to correct "bad behaviour"! Pardon, he taught his puppy to behave agressively himself.
People throw their dogs into shelters without a slightest thought, that it could be something wrong with them. I would give you garantee 100%, that the majority not only GSDs but many breeds carrying the potential to become agressive would bite a member of the family in which some conflict pronounced itself strongly. Those farthers and mothers slap their daughters and sons, shout at them, punish them, yet when their dog tries copying the leader does absolutely the same just in his doggy way - "Wa-a-a-a!!!" The child was nipped by our family pet! Get rid of him, enough of money spent on him. Though, some of such owners have heard about socialization programs, and than it starts. Crated for hours at home, their owner will hiss at him when guests come, and, finally decides to build and outdoor enclosure. Life on a leash only, just dragged along the streets to pee. Probably the shelter was better in the first place.
Socialization for me means - obedience. Of course, I go to the doggy parks, of course my dog is in a close contact with people every day. Any child can stroke my dog. Maybe, it is easy to train only for a few people, it wasn't difficult for me with my present Lucy, but it was hard earlier in my life. So, I don't buy cheapo ideas.


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## NancyJ

G-burg said:


> Is this what Carmen is talking about when she says "early socialization" meaning while the pups are still at the breeders, or when then get to there new homes and from there??
> 
> And maybe I missed that part where she specially said???


I think that is a valid question as both "biosensor" and early "flooding the puppy once it is home" are two different things.


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## blackshep

onyx'girl said:


> I honestly believe that genetics are what they are. Socialization is great, but a dog that can't handle it is going to be a handful down the road...and a dog with good nerves that hasn't been socialized all that much is going to be good to go in most situations.
> Isolation or pushing the dog that is fearful are the extremes. My post is about the normal day to day things, letting a pup explore and get out and about in the real world.


 
I agree. I just read this article on FB and shared it on my FB page to see what people thought and it's interesting the differing arguments that came out of it. 

I believe the dog is genetically programmed to be a certain way. It's just part of their personality. Good socializing will bring out the best in a dog, but it will never replace good genetics and strong nerves. If you have a weak nerved or fearful dog, you have a lifetime of work ahead of you, trying to manage it. If you've never owned a dog like that, it's hard to appreciate how hard this is.

“It’s all in how they’re raised.” | Paws Abilities

Some of the argument against this article were people saying that it gives people an excuse to not do the work. But I own a reactive dog (low threshold, not fearful), and I do work very hard with her, so I now fully appreciate how hard it is to try to overcome a problem that is hardwired into the dog. I don't believe that certain things can be fixed with socialization, but they can maybe be improved somewhat.


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## LaRen616

I haven't had any issues with early socialization.

My male GSD will be 5 years old in March.
My male Dalmatian will be 7 months old next week.

Both have been heavily socialized since I brought them both home at 11 weeks old. I take them every where I can, they go to my mom's hair salon a couple of times a week, they go with to pet stores and they have been around other dogs since they were puppies. Their best friends are a male and a female Doberman. They have lived with a Rottweiler, a GSD/Husky mix, another GSD, a ACD mix and 2 Min Pins. I have also had 2 Dobermans stay at my house while I dogsat them.

Both dogs are extremely friendly with people and they are cat and dog friendly as well.


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## shepherdmom

G-burg said:


> Is this what Carmen is talking about when she says "early socialization" meaning while the pups are still at the breeders, or when then get to there new homes and from there??
> 
> And maybe I missed that part where she specially said???


That is what I was wondering too. What age is that window for early socialization that she is talking about?


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## wolfy dog

Great thread!
Several trainers in our area recommend puppy owners to take their pups to the open markets for "socializing" but it is appalling what you see there; pups that are afraid of the world, pups in other dogs' faces, fights on leash ("but he wanted to say hi"), etc. 
Regarding dog parks: this is a huge umbrella concept. In our town we have several. One is a smaller fenced one and a hot spot for trouble. There is an in-crowd who thinks they own the park and it is convenient to take the untrained dogs there as they can't escape. People are not paying attention to their dogs' comfort levels either as I see dogs hiding under the pick-nick table while owners are happily chatting. 
Another )off leash) park is a huge wild area with large open spaces and no fences, never heard any trouble from there. I have taken my young adult dogs there without any trouble. Of course you have to be vigilant and look ahead for potential trouble and avoid these people/dogs. 
I think trouble in fenced ones are that people stand still and dogs form territories (along with their owners) around their owners who mostly carry resources like food and toys. Then it has a small fenced in area within the fence for toy breeds but people also take their large breed puppies in there, it is a mess!
In the large open park, people are on the move and so are the dogs. There is more distraction and less focus on resources. So IMO you cannot put all dog parks under one label. How about the forest trails? That is often more of a concern than the wide open dog park. On these narrow trails you can easily get crowding and since the areas are more remote, people with nervous/aggressive dogs go there in the hope not to encounter other dogs. I love long hikes with the dogs and I know there will be challenges sometimes but a well bred, stable dog can handle these if you protect him/her. 
I agree with Carmspack: ever since I got the stable dogs from good breeders I have lightened up on socializing. Ian Dunbar's advice of meeting 100 people before a certain age seems to be overdoing it


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## Blanketback

The AVMA has a socialization protocol:

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization1-25-13.pdf

I disagree with Mr. Frawley, but I also disagree with how he used to do it too, so...lol...maybe he'll change his mind again? I took my 9 week old puppy into hardware stores, and I had him on a flexi leash so he could waddle up to everyone. He was loving it, and people were loving him. If someone gave me a dirty look, I'd get his attention with dried liver and he never noticed the grouch. Most people were overjoyed to have the opportunity to love on my baby puppy. I started relying more on quiet pet stores for socialization as he got bigger and wasn't getting the attention he expected. That was the only time he ever got treats from strangers (from the staff) when he was over 3 months old.

He didn't go to dog parks until he was 9 months old. He'd been exposed to other dogs, an most of the encounters were pleasant for him. The few times when the other dog was a bully, my puppy learned that I will charge dogs and pin dogs and protect him, so even then there was some good learning to be done, IMO.

We went on short car rides every other day, sometimes getting out to explore and sometimes just watching people in the parking lot. Getting gas, going though the drive-thru, etc.

Maybe it depends on what you want your dog to end up like? I want a confident dog that is interested in his surroundings - to be comfortable and secure. I wanted to expose him to everyday life at an age when he was impressionable, since most experts say that window closes by 3-4 months.


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## carmspack

I disagree with the statement that this forum is not a good random sampling.
We have members from every economic, educational, experiential , age, gender , even nationality possible . 
Many breeders will get calls from a similar broad range and will know that concerns , especially what to do with the pup once it gets home , are routine. Even old-timers have a need to know what the popular theories and training methods are if they want their pups to turn out to the best of their genetic potential. How else do you provide good advice.
Bio sensor had a genesis long before "bio-sensor" . 
I believe the official study used by military was to determine how best to produce work capable dogs in a mass production , almost factory style . How much was adequate ? How much tipped the scales toward something better.
The environment would be pretty sterile - 

When you look at a dogs naturally denning , you would have the pups drift from warm to cooler zones, you would have pups on the incline and then tumble down , rolling . Nursing pups get flipped over rear up while still on a teat . So there are things that the mother and the environment would provide. A flat whelping pen , constant temperature do no.
Gentle stimulation , with feeling , observing the pups reactions , done once or twice is good. I have seen youtubes on some web sites where the stimulation is done mechanically, abrupt, aggressive , way too much , much too frequent bothering . 
Dogs do well with innoculations of stress , pre-stressing. Dogs do well when neural connections are made .
I have seen it myself with my pups "enriched" environment resulting in dogs with better co-ordination, better spatial judgement , athleticism , and physical self confidence. 
You do not overwhelm.
You do not impose , you allow an opportunity . There is no right and there is no wrong.
The idea for the thread was not so much about the role of the breeder , but for the person who takes the pup home and with best intentions either does a good job or creates problems , some which will be long lasting. 
It matters for the working dog. It matters what is done at the impressionable stages . Doing things with fervor with schedule in hand , thinking getting that dog out there , preparing for adult work - thinking schutzhund here - will speed the pups progress , may be speeding a deterioration instead as corrections will be introduced.
You start training the program, routine, and not training the dog. 

"ever since I got the stable dogs from good breeders I have lightened up on socializing. Ian Dunbar's advice of meeting 100 people before a certain age seems to be overdoing it "

exactly !!!! 

Genetics . Environment . Nutrition. the trinity.


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## carmspack

this is my point , read this "Most people were overjoyed to have the opportunity to love on my baby puppy. I started relying more on quiet pet stores for socialization as he got bigger and wasn't getting the attention he expected."

I wouldn't do something that you cannot continue with . You can't have an adult dog on a flexi-lead be let room to roam to go up to strangers. Their reaction will be totally different, often alarmed , concerned . The pup gets a social read on people one way , then it is revealed that this was not at all correct , it is expecting the attention and treats -- building confusion, tension , frustration , all stress.
How many have been on the forum and said the dog was so super friendly , (shouldn't be that's another issue) and then at an age , 6 months or so , does a 180 degree turn and is aroused , fearful , distrustful of strangers ?

the "I wouldn't do something that you cannot continue with ." applies to ALL behaviour, including jumping up, and couch and bed flopping. If you choose to allow your dog on furniture it has to be okay all times, whether the dog comes in wet or not, without conditions attached . It is sad to see pups who are encouraged to jump up and then be corrected when you get mud all over you , or the dog is large and without inhibitions and is annoying.
Dogs going for service work are not inhibited in physical contact.


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## Blanketback

That's exactly why: 1) I never let people give treats - because I didn't want him expecting them. 2) I went from hardware stores to pet stores - random strangers in a pet store are always welcoming, regardless of age. 3) I ditched the flexi after the 1st month and only used it when he was very very young - it allowed him his freedom of movement to approach on his own initiative, without me forcing encounters.


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## katdog5911

carmspack said:


> When someone gets a pup of mine I tell them , take the dog home , be a normal family , and let that dog be a dog for the first year .


Wish I had heard this when I acquired my girl. I am busy now trying to undo some of the early socializations she had.

Better to do it right the first time than trying to undo....


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## Wolfgeist

carmspack said:


> Dogs going for service work are not inhibited in physical contact.


This. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## katdog5911

boomer11 said:


> socialization should really be replaced with the word exposure. .


This is so true. Controlled exposure vs willy nilly socialization. My girl is the product of my ignorance.


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## Blanketback

I think there's a huge grey area between "expose" and "overwhelm." Socialization shouldn't be something viewed as an 'either/or' situation. Carmen, I remember the videos Saphire posted of you taking Gus up the fire escape and around the shopping carts - how old was he back then? We'd be doing just as much harm by letting people believe their puppies should be raised in a bubble, IMO.

Some things should be common sense though, that's for sure! Like letting the 15 lbs. baby getaway with things that you'd never want to see at 85 lbs. LOL! C'mon people, who does that?!


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## wolfy dog

Blanketback said:


> Some things should be common sense though, that's for sure! Like letting the 15 lbs. baby getaway with things that you'd never want to see at 85 lbs. LOL! C'mon people, who does that?!


To answer this: the people who call me to get help with their adolescent brat.


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## Courtney

Luckily for us what people told me socialization was supposed to look like right off the bat made me uneasy. It seemed so forced-fake. I'm not a outgoing person with a ton of friends always on the go. My social circle is small. My husband and I private. The idea of having to meet random strangers all the time, stopping for petting zoo type of encounters with people, puppy play dates...yuck. 

I liked the idea of the GSD personality. Aloof...somewhat of a one person dog. Perfect for my personality. We will be great partners.

I did expose and socialize but it was done my way, it was casual & part of my life already. He was my tag-a-long for any errand. We explored together. Love getting him outside to climb, jump, crawl low, balance, etc. My husband would build obstacle courses for him in the yard with whatever was laying around, so much fun. Those moments when he wasn't sure...encouraging him, building that confidence. You are a rock star puppy

I took him to the gun range several times...my husband was already there. He sat and watched, interested.

Sure he met strangers & children along the way. He learned to ignore other dogs in class - gets to romp around sometimes with my neighbors awesome dog.

We are active and love to be outdoors hiking & camping. He runs with my husband.

But sometimes I just want to stay home with my sweats on and have a down day to watch movies under the blanket all day, do nothing. It was important that I had a dog that would accept down time and not need to be entertained and on the go all the time. I have that with Rusty and I think it's because I just kept it simple with 'raising' him...if you will.


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## carmspack

no ma'm , that was NOT Gus. I would not be handling HER dog .

This was a young green dog (Geefacker thread) that I had taken in to help my friend who had serious lung problems and could not get around. 
This dog is Grey. although he is green , and he is sable. His name is Grey. He was 8 months . I had already removed him from consideration as a service dog . He had tons of prey drive , good tracking , was socially adaptable .
I received him from British Columbia , first impressions made at the airport -- the drive home, the ability to fit into my home and kennels seamlessly , to be initially assessed , and then to go into a program for further observations and decisions. 
This dog is very successful in his new home, accompanying a competitive runner on her work outs , very warmly attached - but in a healthy way --- (good bond) , willing easy response to training . 

At no time was he ever forced to endure something that he was not prepared to do . No pressure . No coaxing , no reinforcing . Just show me . Till that day I had not taken him out for a walk so I was basically a "stranger" handling him. On my property dogs run without leash , most without collar . He was quick and responsive and great recalls , not dog aggressive, nor particularly dog interested . He was a very joyful dog .

Social experience is extremely important to me .

To what purpose would I say to shelter your dog in a cottage until some dottery age. Definitely not a bubble person . 

Different definition of what socializing is though.

seriously? "Like letting the 15 lbs. baby getaway with things that you'd never want to see at 85 lbs. LOL! C'mon people, who does that?! "


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## Blanketback

Sorry - it wasn't Gus, I was mistaken. I just remember those videos because I liked them. I liked how the pup was being taken to the shopping cart area and he was curious but not flustered. Because I know how loud those things are too, lol. I thought that was a good idea, one I might use.


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## ozzymama

I like this thread, because I didn't get to do the early socialization with my two current dogs. Sandi I had from 8 weeks and she went everywhere, met everyone, but wasn't interested in other dogs very much, we went to a dog park, I sat on a bench, she got up beside me on the bench. 

Oz we bought at 6 months old and Dolly was around 18 months. So I didn't do either of their early socialization, we've put work into both of them and socialized since then, I can't say it was harder than with Sandi, because the three are such different personalities. We didn't do meet so many people in so many days and a lot of their socialization takes place on the fringes of events. Two-fold, not everyone likes or wants dogs at public events and secondly, give them space. We did take Dolly in one of the Terry Fox runs with us, we take them up to the harbour in the summer, down to the lake, around town. Now that DD can walk for more than a few hours at a time, they can start going to festivals with us more.

I think if I use my two as an example, they didn't get early socialization, Oz lived in a one bedroom apartment and had a run he went in several hours a day, Dolly - we don't know much, I wouldn't think she was a beloved pet who wandered off, I've oft thought a breeder dump, but the rescue did do a good job with her. They are both confident, happy dogs, there are no aggression issues, no really bad behaviour in public. Maybe they just can't hold it and poop in public, but other than that. I am confident and comfortable when we go out, I don't know what more I could expect from them. They really are good dogs and they have nice manners, they didn't when adopted. I don't know if we are just really lucky, or we're doing something right LOL, but they have no bad habits, they've had one real fight in 2.5 years, I don't worry about reactions I feel they are predictable. 

So I guess, my opinion is, early socialization is good, but an older dog, where that arbitrary window has closed can still be socialized and trained and bad habits gotten rid of. It can be done and the end result can still be a balanced dog, just it might be more work and you might need more support from trainers etc.


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## NancyJ

I do think it was very beneficial for Beau to learn at a young age that farm animals are best to be ignored, and horses were NOT big dogs. [horses can be bad and donkeys will kill a dog] ...........So it was more desensitization to things that were hohum. The most valuable thing I did was lots of time in the woods offlead learning that all those neat things were part of the background as well as driving the hour to a friend's farm on a regular basis.

I don't have the "perfect" dog by a longshot and had/have to do a ton of obedience but so far I have only seen hackles go up once, for a very short period, at around 6 months. Some things will elicit a startle, followed almost immediately by the "investigation" . Even though I set and was consistent with house rules he is still a bit pushy at testing the limits. Obviously the issue is on me, not the dog.

I think genetics must be an awful lot. I met a GSD who had spent so much of its development in a crate in a dark basement that its bones were messed up and they did a lot to help with that, but there were no temperament issues. I have seen others that have had every advantage and they are a bag of nerves.


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## David Taggart

> Several trainers in our area recommend puppy owners to take their pups to the open markets for "socializing" but it is appalling what you see there; pups that are afraid of the world,


All young creatures are fearful of strangers, including humans. The majority of children under 3 years clearly exhibit their fear even with a look into their eyes and hide their faces. Because all youngl creatures are vulnerable at that age, the majority would be scared being exposed to a stranger. Not every though. But we cannot judge children by some individuals, as well as we cannot judge all dogs by some friendly specimen, people who say "Oh, my dog was always friendly!" simply tell about one dog out of one hundred.
I always will vote against programs tended to make living creatures robotic. Such programs make young puppy not a being used to, but a blunt being. Then, what about your young dog's personality? If anyone is working on breeding a "friendly GSD" - that is simply appalling. In all possible respects. Dogs are not robots to make all of them friendly. People want to have a friendly GSD? Let them go to classes, don't allow them to buy one. But, who will allow them to produce yet another breed out of existing breed? Our free market will. There are quite a few breeds were produced already: *American Cocker Spaniel out of a hunting dog, non-agressive Labrador, American non-agressive Akita, I cannot name all. The trouble is that these breeds lack intelligence in comparison to original breeds*. It something really happens with dogs - with the loss of agressiveness of carnivour they partly lose intellect. I'm afraid that GSD goes into the same bin. People don't want intelligent dogs, they even don't have any idea how intelligent dogs can be. But they don't want to bother with these potentials of their dog to become agressive, self-motivated or moody. These breeding programs produce dogs for any owner, allowing people to be agressive, misbehaved themselves, never find faults in themselves or their families, be bad trainers, but blame either their dog or the breeder who didn't provide them with a pet friendly enough. Everything people want - a friendly beautiful brainless, personality-less hide on the leash, who would never cause them trouble. If there wasn't a buyer, there wouldn't be a seller. The author of the article simply responds the demands of the market. What concerns preservation of original GSD - US should be proud of their line and afraid of such "genetics". 
Going back to your dog's personality, I will try to involve your imagination. Imagine, that your wife took you for a walk, simply asked you "Do you want walky?" And you happily agreed, because sitting at computer all the day long gives you ache in your spine. During your walk she meets absolutely unknown to you man and starts to chat with him. Of course, you feel indignated and jealous and try to stand in between them. But she asks you to sit down on the close by bench. Then, to your astonishment, that stranger pinches your cheek and pats you on your neck. Your wife smiles looking in your eyes. Ridiculous, isn't it? Why have you decided that every dog should like it?


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## blackshep

Labs are in the top 10 list of most intelligent dog breeds in the world


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## Baillif

I'm more surprised anyone reads the wall of text. I admire his ability to buck current trends, like the widespread use of paragraphs.


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## blackshep

Baillif said:


> I'm more surprised anyone reads the wall of text. I admire his ability to buck current trends, like the widespread use of paragraphs.


:laugh:

You are too funny!


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## carmspack

ozzymamma sounds like a great job , you did socialize correctly .

when my son was on a rowing team I would be the driver -- so early it was ridiculous -- I always had two young dogs with me . Each would have a turn to be in the boat house when the kids were preparing for launch , the other would be with me when the kids had finished and returning , lots of parents returning as well for pick up. In the meantime I would wander around the town (Port Perry) , make use of the environment at hand - stair cases, fire escapes , the board walk , the water front -- having joggers pass and so on.
I would also take young dogs to the Stouffville Flea Market . Downtown Toronto , U of T campus , Kensington Market , public transit, youtubes in the subway system going up and down escalators.
The purpose was not to "better" the dogs but to check the genetics . 
There was no attempt to condition them , nor correct them . 
I am not particularly kid's glove -- the dogs I have must be robust , able to take the rough and tumble -- but that does not mean harsh or punitive -- making it normal .

Another thread with de Gols and operant conditioning for police service dogs -- good idea , but be prepared that the handler may be two left feet, macho , not a sophisticated handler - may well himself be of the olde yank and crank . Dogs that are too handler soft need to be found out , dogs that are handler resentful have to be found out.


Genetics are important . Very much so. A dog already wired to have difficulties in being unable to block a response , can be made more excitable . Stress junkie. A shy dog with inhibitions can be overwhelmed with little social pressure and be driven further into a shell if earnest "popular" socializing is imposed . 

Always be respectful of the dogs capabilities and considerate of that particular dogs emotional age , which is often not the chronological age , and his emotional range.


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## carmspack

this "All young creatures are fearful of strangers, including humans. "

is not true . Bad science . All young creatures have a period where they are totally naïve . Fuller and Scott pegged this at around 4 to 5 weeks . 

"working on breeding a "friendly GSD" - that is simply appalling. In all possible respects. Dogs are not robots to make all of them friendly"

no , people want confident well adjusted animals that don't cause them grief or worry. They want to enjoy their dog , and have the dog enjoy life . It is best for the dog because then the dog is "right". Healthy body , healthy mind.
To have ANTI-social dogs who are unapproachable does no service to the dog , which is distressed , and no service to the person who has to leave the dog behind because he is limited to where he can take the dog .
Society demands it .


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## blackshep

But then you get the people saying if you haven't done this and this by the time they are 16 weeks old you are DOOMED.

It's all pretty confusing for less experienced owners.

I think with my next dog (now that I found this forum) I am going to get a lot of feedback from people here on bloodlines and then I think I am not going to 'try' so hard with the socializing. I think if the dog is genetically sound, they will be able to handle it, and if not, I think the chances of messing up the socializing and making things worse is higher the more you expose them to situations that they feel overwhelmed in. 

One thing I feel went a bit badly for my pup, as well intended as it was, was I took her to the park and let her watch kids from a distance (I don't have kids, so socializing my dog with them was difficult) running and screaming and playing around a splash pad. This was all fine and she handled it really well, until some toddler saw the fuzzy puppy and ran screaming straight toward her. My pup flew backward on the leash and started barking, the dad grabbed the kid and it all ended pretty quick, but it just goes to show you how quickly a good thing can go bad. She is ok with kids now, but I wouldn't say she loves them, and I don't know if that experience did more harm than good.


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## Blanketback

carmspack said:


> To have ANTI-social dogs who are unapproachable does no service to the dog , which is distressed , and no service to the person who has to leave the dog behind because he is limited to where he can take the dog .


This was my motivation for getting my puppy out and about. My dogs are my constant companions, they go where I go - within reason. My idea of a nice vacation is camping with DH and our dogs, not a Mexican resort. I like taking them for walks in the park, but they have to accept rollerblades and skateboards to be able to do that. Life can be frantic, but that's not how my dog should be.


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## David Winners

Such an interesting and complex topic.

Carmen, you bring up some very interesting points concerning genetics and how they will effect the end state of the dog, and the socialization process as well. A low threshold dog will always be low threshold, therefore a different looking socialization will have to take place that will help the pup learn to cap itself, focus on the handler, and place things of distraction in the background of its mind. Where a lower threshold dog will naturally be more able to remain non reactive in closer proximity to stimulus.

You state that you take the pups many places but do not attempt to condition or correct them. I disagree with this, as by taking them to these places, and acting in a calm manner yourself, you are conditioning them to what is normal in the world, and you are showing them how they are to react by your example. Overreaction by the handler will create that pattern in the dog. Your calm nature and interested but aloof behavior is observed by the dog.

This brings up the point that it is more than just the act of being in a particular place that defines socialization. It is the experience taken from that place that is of importance, and that experience is greatly affected by the handler. I would say that it is also greatly affected by the level of engagement the handler has with that particular pup as well. If previous training was conducted that encouraged the dog to be continuously engaged with the handler, the pup will be more likely to decide what is right in a given situation by looking to that handler as an example.

If a puppy is of sound nerves, much of this is definitely a moot point, as they will go pretty much anywhere and experience anything with a wag of the tail. *I think there's a huge grey area between "expose" and "overwhelm."* I disagree with this, as the definitions are black and white. If the dog is in the presence of something, but does not react overtly, it has been exposed. If the dog reacts in an inappropriate manner, it is overwhelmed. 

A dog doesn't have to look at something for 10 minutes to be exposed to it. Working in concert with the handler in an area full of 20 different distractions is exposure to all those things. Your dog can still hear, see, and smell all of those things that are nearby. He doesn't have to touch his nose on the object to remember his experience with it. Doing 5 minutes of exposure in a pet store may look very different depending on what is done with the dog. If the dog is left to his own devices, he is left to make his own decisions and form his opinions independently of the handler. If he is engaged with the handler and moving through the experience with that handler as a guide, he will be more apt to take into consideration what the handler is doing and follow that lead.

*One thing I feel went a bit badly for my pup, as well intended as it was, was I took her to the park and let her watch kids from a distance (I don't have kids, so socializing my dog with them was difficult) running and screaming and playing around a splash pad. This was all fine and she handled it really well, until some toddler saw the fuzzy puppy and ran screaming straight toward her. My pup flew backward on the leash and started barking, the dad grabbed the kid and it all ended pretty quick, but it just goes to show you how quickly a good thing can go bad.*

The above situation could have gone much differently if instead of sitting on a bench, allowing the dog to become focused on the kids, the handler would have kept moving with the pups focus and interest held on the handler. Kid comes screaming and the handler keeps moving and stays interesting to the pup, so the pup stays with the handler instead of having 100% of its attention on the incoming kid. Not saying you are wrong, but pointing out how the same venue can provide 2 polar opposite experiences for the dog.

Again, a statement about puppies with very sound nerves. This doesn't apply to the same extent as with a reactive dog. A good puppy can walk in an say, "I'm here!" and experience the world as his oyster. Then it is more about showing the puppy what is acceptable behavior. If the dog is sound, you are testing the dog. If the dog is not, you are problem solving by creating positive experiences for the pup.


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## David Taggart

> Society demands it


Then - society is wrong. Humans killed the God's beauty, and replaced His image with a beutified portrait in a guilded frame only because it suits them better. I cannot watch it happening. But I am not a fighter.


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## David Winners

David Taggart said:


> Then - society is wrong. Humans killed the God's beauty, and replaced His image with a beutified portrait in a guilded frame only because it suits them better. I cannot watch it happening. But I am not a fighter.


As a dog owner, you are part of the process. You don't have a wolf there in your avitar.


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## Blanketback

David Winners said:


> *I think there's a huge grey area between "expose" and "overwhelm."* I disagree with this, as the definitions are black and white. If the dog is in the presence of something, but does not react overtly, it has been exposed. If the dog reacts in an inappropriate manner, it is overwhelmed.


Yes, if you spin it that way, I disagree too - even though I wrote it, lol. What I was getting at was that depending on the circumstances, the puppy can either accept the 'whatever' or freak out about it, and there's a wide gulf between. Say you're walking down the road on garbage day, and your puppy reacts to a bag. He could be barking at it, or digging his feet into the ground and not want to get any closer. Some people would drag their puppy past it. Some people would pet their puppy. Some people would continue to walk nonchalantly up to it. Some people would cross the road. That's how I meant it.



David Taggart said:


> Then - society is wrong. Humans killed the God's beauty, and replaced His image with a beutified portrait in a guilded frame only because it suits them better. I cannot watch it happening. But I am not a fighter.


I saw another post of yours in another thread, and I'm assuming these go together. Something about making the breed friendly? How do you make that conclusion? I'm wondering, because IMO you can't turn a GSD into a lab. I've turned a BYB GSD into a Therapy Dog - but without that bandana on to let him know he was working, and putting him in his own back yard, he was anything but "friendly" as far as anyone would guess. What is wrong with having a GSD able to function in society?


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## carmspack

David , said "You state that you take the pups many places but do not attempt to condition or correct them" . This is true . I allow the animal to reveal its inner self . If , for instance , a car goes quickly by and the animal ducks , I will make a notation -- check it out ANOTHER day , see if it is a sensitivity , a pattern. I do not attempt to make it alright . This is for my service dogs . They have to be able to deal . That is what I meant by not intentionally conditioning them . 
Yes , yes and more yes to "taking them to these places, and acting in a calm manner yourself, you are conditioning them to what is normal in the world, and you are showing them how they are to react by your example" how many times have I said to be the model , the example of what you want . Think of it in terms of a young dog , possibly still with it's mother . And that mother is a nervous , suspicious , sharp dog . This model of behaviour is imprinted in the behaviour in the pups. It is going to be very difficult to turn those pups around. I know. When I first began way back in the 70's I would go kennel hopping - see dams and pups together and then follow them up as they made their debuts . I was show handling at the time , so I handled some of these dogs. The dam , providing the internal , chemical environment , remembering the stress has a chemical wash which is shared by the fetus, and later the external environment of responses. This gives her a greater share than 50% in the genetic equation. Big studies in epigenetics .

"Overreaction by the handler will create that pattern in the dog."
yes , the handler will get the dog he deserves . 
The handler that stays stuck in a position when they really should be moving on is creating a behaviour --- recent youtubeys of a gsd pup going for a walk , bothered and upset , aroused , going forward and backward is an example. Had they known the "nasty" dog was there , or even if not, if they had confidently said - leave it , let's go , and gone the dog would pay less attention to future encounters. With this sequence though I think the dog may target , seek out , dogs to get stimulated by.
almost right , take it a few steps further ....
engagement with a handler does not mean gobs of time --
when all conditions are spot on , then you have the environment in which "genetic obedience" can be tapped . There is an awareness .
Some dogs have it in greater amounts , some not at all.
That is what the whole pack dynamic is . The partnership.

When you have everything in place , good genetics and good socialization then you have a PARTNERSHIP and can work as team members each with a responsibility to a task , that work in CO OPERATION . The dog will look to the handler . Yes a super-lassie.

Nicholas and that blog shows it .

I have a more recent set of videos which show it brilliantly in action. I did not see this video till the other night , and this was taken way back in early Sept. , so forgot about it .

agree with this "allowing the dog to become focused on the kids, the handler would have kept moving with the pups focus and interest held on the handler. Kid comes screaming and the handler keeps moving and stays interesting to the pup, so the pup stays with the handler instead of having 100% of its attention on the incoming kid. Not saying you are wrong, but pointing out how the same venue can provide 2 polar opposite experiences for the dog."

Socializing the dog is a bit like riding the horse . You are an ACTIVE participant . You decide and control . The dog is passive - follows along . Most socializing is the reverse , the person is passive , not acting on the environment , while the pup , takes the active role making decisions on what action to take .


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## David Winners

"Overreaction by the handler will create that pattern in the dog."
yes , the handler will get the dog he deserves .


That's funny


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## DonnaKay

Whew, I feel much better about missing puppy play time at the pet store tonight. With near blizzard-like weather, I didn't want to take a chance on the roads. Must have been a sign from above! 

The weather here in Michigan has been horrendous since the 3 weeks since I've had Mystique and I was feeling bad that we're not able to get out much. This thread gives me hope that I'm not messing her up for life. 

Other than 2 puppy obedience classes so far, I've taken her to my Mom's and sister's (they live together). My mom is a bit nervous around dogs and Mystique is "puppy excited" with her but I notice she is a little more subdued with Mom than with my sister, who loves her up and plays with her. At almost 11 weeks, I think it's a good sign that she picked up on that.

My sister has a 14 yo overweight lhaso named Peanut that wants nothing to do with Mystique. He will stand in one spot while she tries her darndest to get him to play. When she gets too close for comfort, he gives her a warning. Sometimes she heeds it and backs off, sometimes she gets too excited and than is reprimanded by him. Peanut is teaching her doggie manners. 

This morning I hit the McD drive-thru to grab a coffee and she just sat there watching the lady at the window. No reaction whatsoever. Gave her a treat as we pulled away for being so good.

Overall, I think she's doing really well but I was feeling guilty that maybe it wasn't enough. This thread gives me hope and I think I'll pass on future puppy play time. We'll keep doing more controlled visits.


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## David Taggart

> As a dog owner, you are part of the process. You don't have a wolf there in your avitar.


I always will vote against such programs, but nobody can fight the demands of the society. The society is agressive. You can help stopping people to buy guns, but you cannot stop them wishing to kill somebody. What are dog occasional bites in comparison to homocide? These talks about dogs biting children are sheer hypocrisy. But that is human nature, to blame Jews, to blame dogs for something nations have in themselves. I vote with both hands and feet for licencing the breed. It would help serious devoted breeders, it would help selecting new owners, it would help shelters, and would help the breed itself with the history of breeding which started long before its founder defined it. I have another reason to vote against - breeding yet another vegetable in a dog's hide is simply inhumane. Why don't people get American Cocker Spaniel of "good genetics" for their kids to play with?
Good stable temperament doesn't mean "friendly". Being potentially agressive GSD needs an owner with a good stable temperament. There should be a demand to the owner, not to the already beautiful qualities of the dog.
Going back to dog training - don't let any stranger to touch your young puppy, go to good classes when he is three months old, socialize him there first. And, if your instructor tells you to keep your dog away from strangers, simply don't push him. He will learn to tolerate human touch later as a sort of distraction. My dog like kids because she is a female, but I always had to direct and control their behaviour including unknown ones in order to prevent driving negative emotions out of her. She learned to ignore the kid she doesn't like very much, she learned to ignore a drunkard waving his hands with bravado at her nose. She showed herself unsuitable for Schutzhund protection, but it doesn;t mean that she is not agressive, she is just too low reactive for hard work and any competition, she is "not interested in decoys" (LOL). Dogs? She was a fire starter in a puppy park, but only I noticed her biting hard - I took her away from there. Later I trained her to share her toy with another dog by throwing the ball for both. She learned to run faster in order to get it and stopped paying attention to any dogs in the park present around her. She doesn't need them, but she needs me. I didn't get my dog for other people and dogs, I've got her for myself in the first place.


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## David Winners

jocoyn said:


> I do think it was very beneficial for Beau to learn at a young age that farm animals are best to be ignored, and horses were NOT big dogs. [horses can be bad and donkeys will kill a dog] ...........So it was more desensitization to things that were hohum. The most valuable thing I did was lots of time in the woods offlead learning that all those neat things were part of the background as well as driving the hour to a friend's farm on a regular basis.


Will you expound on this more? Such as at what age this was happening, what specific situations you put the dog in and how you decided on those situations?

I think it will help others understand what the goal was, and how to strive towards that goal instead of away from it.


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## NancyJ

David, not sure if this hits the mark of what you were looking for or not. Not hitting on all cylinders with a prolonged ear infection. ick.

The goal was a reliable offlead search dog. By walking offlead a lot with my older dog, Grim, and some stable adult dogs belonging to team members, he learned he could have a lot of freedom within a certain distance from me. I think that is good imprinting - as young pups they don't tend to boldly go exploring too far and by the time he got old enough to want to be crazy, he had no reason to do so because he already knew what was out there and had established a natural "range" from me. So we started at about 9 weeks. Before the "shots" all kicked in.

We continued off and on for about three months. This was mostly what we did then along with scent imprinting and blind throws of toys packed with the target training odor. I should have been more vigilant on house manners and general obedience, but in the middle of it dealt with a both my other two dogs having cancer and injuries not to mention my mother who lives with us due to a massive stroke......

My goal was for him to learn that farm critters, and woodland critters were "part of the background" so my approach was hanging out with him on a long line for a good while in the combo goat and chicken pen, to gently correct chasing, and to redirect onto a toy and with food. These same folks had horses too, which he became used to.

I have had no issues with him showing interest in all kinds of animals but he still has an interest in dogs. Recently he blew me off to visit a comely young cocker tied up to a dog house 

So not all is roses and butterflies. At least it was friendly and I am working on that issue of blowing me off; I know from past search experiences, he will encounter many chained dogs, most of which are not friendly so...a gap. He has been around team dogs a lot as well but not interacting with them and he ignores them. It is not that other dogs seem to bother him but he wants to go say "hi" so, even though he did not get much dog play he still finds them curious and seems kind of intrigued by aggressive behavior and sometimes I wonder if he knows how to "read" that. So perhaps I should have done more dog socialization - not sure. He is a dog, though, so I guess maybe he should be interested, but it is an opportunity to ramp up the obedience.

So it was not so much making him comfortable around these animals but to learn they were of no consequence. We also did the same at the park around the basketball and tennis courts and just all around town around people. Basically what I wanted there was a dog who could work without paying attention to these various distractions and to be confident that nothing represented a threat.

All along, our observations never raised any red flags. Noises, slick floors, unstable stuff, odd stuff, sliding boards, open stairs,...just observing during everyday outings. You know if a dog is slated for work that you have to take notice of these things, as Carmen said, and be prepared to wash them out if you see signs of nerve issues. 

I had a weak nerved dog and the difference was profound. You can't socialize a dog to EVERYTHING and that dog did not ever generalize that the world was safe and an interesting place. I would have to spend a lot of time "getting over" some silly thing. The day I spent 30 minutes "getting over" a big block of Styrofoam in the woods was the day I washed him from SAR training.


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## David Winners

I hope you feel better!

Yes, this is just what I was looking for, and thanks for your reply. It's about showing the dog what is normal in its life. It is also an example of how a well bred GSD should experience life and take it in stride.

The crittering is a separate issue. He's just a butthead, and it is something you will work through  




jocoyn said:


> David, not sure if this hits the mark of what you were looking for or not. Not hitting on all cylinders with a prolonged ear infection. ick.
> 
> The goal was a reliable offlead search dog. By walking offlead a lot with my older dog, Grim, and some stable adult dogs belonging to team members, he learned he could have a lot of freedom within a certain distance from me. I think that is good imprinting - as young pups they don't tend to boldly go exploring too far and by the time he got old enough to want to be crazy, he had no reason to do so because he already knew what was out there and had established a natural "range" from me. So we started at about 9 weeks. Before the "shots" all kicked in.
> 
> We continued off and on for about three months. This was mostly what we did then along with scent imprinting and blind throws of toys packed with the target training odor. I should have been more vigilant on house manners and general obedience, but in the middle of it dealt with a both my other two dogs having cancer and injuries not to mention my mother who lives with us due to a massive stroke......
> 
> My goal was for him to learn that farm critters, and woodland critters were "part of the background" so my approach was hanging out with him on a long line for a good while in the combo goat and chicken pen, to gently correct chasing, and to redirect onto a toy and with food. These same folks had horses too, which he became used to.
> 
> I have had no issues with him showing interest in all kinds of animals but he still has an interest in dogs. Recently he blew me off to visit a comely young cocker tied up to a dog house
> 
> So not all is roses and butterflies. At least it was friendly and I am working on that issue of blowing me off; I know from past search experiences, he will encounter many chained dogs, most of which are not friendly so...a gap. He has been around team dogs a lot as well but not interacting with them and he ignores them. It is not that other dogs seem to bother him but he wants to go say "hi" so, even though he did not get much dog play he still finds them curious and seems kind of intrigued by aggressive behavior and sometimes I wonder if he knows how to "read" that. So perhaps I should have done more dog socialization - not sure. He is a dog, though, so I guess maybe he should be interested, but it is an opportunity to ramp up the obedience.
> 
> So it was not so much making him comfortable around these animals but to learn they were of no consequence. We also did the same at the park around the basketball and tennis courts and just all around town around people. Basically what I wanted there was a dog who could work without paying attention to these various distractions and to be confident that nothing represented a threat.
> 
> All along, our observations never raised any red flags. Noises, slick floors, unstable stuff, odd stuff, sliding boards, open stairs,...just observing during everyday outings. You know if a dog is slated for work that you have to take notice of these things, as Carmen said, and be prepared to wash them out if you see signs of nerve issues.
> 
> I had a weak nerved dog and the difference was profound. You can't socialize a dog to EVERYTHING and that dog did not ever generalize that the world was safe and an interesting place. I would have to spend a lot of time "getting over" some silly thing. The day I spent 30 minutes "getting over" a big block of Styrofoam in the woods was the day I washed him from SAR training.


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## ozzymama

carmspack said:


> ozzymamma sounds like a great job , you did socialize correctly .


Thank you, that means a lot. 
Sandi was the only dog I had who did therapy work, I tried it with Oz, but he matured slower. Now Sandi was a collie, so different dog altogether, but I took a lot of the training, the things the dogs needed to know and how to get them there and applied it to my current dogs. I think something like that when an owner is fresh, new to dogs, is important. 
No matter what your dog, get it a job, because you will learn so much that will help you later with future dogs.


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## Freestep

DJEtzel said:


> It's like they wouldn't notice the odd thing unless you had brought light to it, and then they get skeptical. "Why do I care about that? This is freaking me out, mom's making a big deal about this, maybe I should be concerned!" and the cycle continues.


 Yep. This is how people create problems in their dogs--I see it every day. So much has to do with the attitude and emotions of the "trainer", which consciously or unconsciously informs the dog. "Oh, you're afraid of men? That worries me! You must get over this or it's a bad reflection on me, as a dog owner! Let's flood the crap out of you, because I can't possibly sit by and do nothing!" At least that was my thinking when I was younger, having read a lot of Barbara Woodhouse, the Kohler method and 1980's New Skete stuff. It might work for some dogs, it actually did work with my first dog, but I got lucky with her--she was bombproof and forgave all my mistakes.

Socialization/exposure is important, but a dog with genetically solid temperament does not need a great deal of it, and a dog with problems needs controlled exposure. Dog parks are definitely not somewhere I'd take my dog for socialization, but a trainer in town runs a puppy socialization class where the play is supervised. I think it's a good thing.

Furthermore, if you're breeding, like Carmen says you don't want to affect or influence the dog's reactions to outside stimuli, you just want to *see* them. Making breeding decisions means you want to see the pure, raw genetic temperament without human intervention.


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## carmspack

well you can't be without human intervention . I know what you are getting at . To clarify , socialization is a multi step process . The first stage is approximately 4 to 6 weeks when social awareness begins within the litter - dog to dog - littermates to each other , and they to the dam. 
Human orientation can begin here also . Just being present. Being in an environment that is not risky , yet not boring , with opportunities to explore . Here people can be over bearing , providing too much , delighted by the sudden animation of the "cute" pups , over extend them with activity or attention. 
All things have consequences.
After this age , 6 to 8 weeks , is the ideal period for a shift in attachment to humans . That is why 7 to 8 weeks is a good time to bring a pup home - if there are concerns the pup is under exposed to people . At 6 weeks, for any one raising a litter , it is a very good idea to take each pup out into the yard, or into your living area , and have one-on-one time , as a unique individual . Give the dog a name , doesn't matter if it is permanent or not . You will be surprised to see that dog respond to his name . If I have 3 pups playing with each other in this age range I can call one of them out , and he will respond by leaving the other two and come interact with me.
The more normal human oriented contact the pup has the better it will be as a household companion or even , or especially a working dog. You will build confidence . You also get the bonus of having a dog more responsive to training.
Yet when people get their puppy home at 8 , 10 , 12 , weeks their first concern is to "socialize" the pup with dogs, in a petsmarty type store , or a dog park , or a class which may be loaded with older , rowdy dogs with problems, (the reason for them being there) which all are not controlled environments , nor are they especially a positive experience . The dog has had its social period for dog to dog . The human attachment at this point is much more important.
Instead of teaching the dog to sit , or give high five , or to down - which the dog has been doing since it was 4 weeks of age , really concentrate on the move with me , follow me, come to me -- things which have very satisfying MOTION , and reward for focus on you . 
The high five pawing is a juvenile gesture which the pups use to get mom dog to stand still so that the pups can nurse , and to help stimulate that milk let down . 

Normal human contact . What YOU perceive as normal human contact for yourself pretty much applies to the pup as well.

We have a comfortable social space around us. So do dogs. We have a level of comfort on contact . Ever been greeted by someone who on a handshake holds your hand too long ? Starts getting uncomfortable . Okay this is getting creepy , right? Prolonged looking into eyes , uncomfortable . We have to have the same consideration for our pups when socializing , whether it be human or dog contact.
Contact should be brief , with manners and tension free.
You have the control on when to leave the situation or not , or whether to have contact at all. Comments can be made in passing . Nice dog !! "thanks!" and keep on going.
At one petsmarty store I saw a chubby , very cute , black and red GSD pup . I would peg that pup to have been 9 to 10 weeks.
A lady comes around the aisle , sees the dog, approaches quickly. In very over the top excitement she asks "aw ,, can I see that puppy" 
The owner pleased , says yes. The next thing you know this lady has pounced on the pup, picked it up , is hugging it . The dog is squirming to get out of the stranglehold , twisting and arching , mouthing at the lady , who has the temerity to strike the muzzle with her finger - no no don't bite , and proceeds to instruct the new owner on proper dog manners . ..... screech .... what ??
The owner of the dog was not there for their dog. Probably new to the breed and anxious to have a well socialized dog - allowed it to happen.
Personally I don't have use for dog parks . Trainers LOVE them , because they bring a lot of business ! 

.


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## NancyJ

So here is a socialization - dog social skills question

Beau will be 3 in July and has been out around and dogs and short of a rather nasty "attack" by a little Welsh, (and it was a full attack with no anticipatory play behavior he has never been really challenged by any other dog but the Welsh was on lead and the owner quickly pulled him off.) The Welsh has put holes in some other dogs and now the owner is more aware of his possibilities and manages him well though I have declined her invite to let them "meet" again enough for her not to ask. We can talk with the dogs a few feet apart but no direct contact.

He did not seem rattled by the episode with the Welsh even when it happened, and gets a rather quizzical look on his face when dogs bark at him. I am not sure he perceived a threat.

He has also had a few females snark at him the way females can and he would have continued pestering them had I not told him to "leave it". 

The only time I have seen a response on his part was when a male lab tried to cross over his shoulder and put a paw on it. He quickly put the lab in its place with no injuries, though it was rather dramatic, and we separated the two immediately and then we did obedience with both dogs close to one another (on lead) for awhile to make sure all was good and saw no stress between either of them. 

How do you prepare a dog for other dogs being nasty? Or don't you and assume that even though they have not been around nasty dogs they know the language? Or do you just trust the genetics and the experience growing up around "good" dogs? Obviously we want to protect our dogs but with an offlead working dog and loose dogs out and about, it is something that can happen. We usually try to be proactive with flankers also looking for strays and keeping them at bay so the working dogs can work but.....Did I do the right thing as a young pup by ignoring yapper dogs and teaching him they were of no consequence?


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## David Taggart

> Trainers LOVE them , because they bring a lot of business !


 Advertisements in your local paper and opening your own site brings you business. Mainly people come to the doggy park to chat with each other, and that is understanding, they have worked all the day long, or spent lonely hours just waiting for 7PM and meet this time as it was a dawn of heaven. They are so much involved in conversation, that they forget that they came there for the sake of their dogs. Excited barks around seems serve like fireworks at New year celebration. If something bad happens, say, fights, you can hear shouts, but then again - laughing, chatting, some even picnicing there. A picnic with your dogs, actually, is totally unknown matter to me. So far, I didn't observe anything than agressive barking and guarding the owner with his sandwich. But that, I suppose, could be one of mentioned environments where you can train your dog. Food issue makes some dogs really hot, I really don't understand, how can you enjoy youself if you have to train your young dog at the same time? Unless, of course, you have prepared a picnic for the purpose of doing so. Some people, who really come to the doggy park for their dogs, throw the ball for them, but they stay apart, because other dogs wouldn't let you to play. Biting for the toy is the main trouble. Ball represents prey for your dog, he is doing a job by chasing it and bringing it back to his leader to share (I suppose, if it was a real prey - it should have been eaten together). Other dogs appear as they were attacking hyenas, trying to bereave the lion from the kill. Of course, your dog would feel being indignated. I trained my dogs to stop biting other dog at the fallen ball on the ground by presenting the ball to that dog. Finally she started to drop it herself for another dog by command (poor Lucy! I'm sorry every time it has to happen, because it is a part of socialization). So, you can train your own dog something in the dog park, but please, don't think you can find clients there. All people I helped, I helped for free. First of all, because people hardly recognize who knows something about dog training, and who doesn't. If you say "I'm a dog trainer", everybody will shake your hand, say "You are welcome", and involve you in conversation about local pubs and restaurants, tell you popular jokes, and so on. If you continue to turn to your dog too often - you are no longer a part of them. Anything you say to them about their dog or their own behaviour - they will bounce back something, or pretend that the topic is interesting. Once in a million times you may meet some dull adolescent with GSD, who would be interested, but tell you that he should ask his father first. No, I don't go to the doggy park in order to find clients. I simply enjoy watching other dogs interacting for a short while, then move on with Lucy somewhere else. Actually, it is her who asks me to leave.


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## carmspack

Taggart , this "No, I don't go to the doggy park in order to find clients." is a relief.
Trainers don't go trolling dog parks for clients.
Eventually the dogs will have problems and the owners will ask the local vets or breeders who they would recommend as a competent , legitimate trainer - or search the print ads themselves.


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## David Taggart

> He did not seem rattled by the episode with the Welsh even when it happened, and gets a rather quizzical look on his face when dogs bark at him. I am not sure he perceived a threat.


This usugumo flip would work for the group of dogs, I use it for passing one dog park: Electronic Dog Repeller | eBay
It should work for that Welsh, but, I guess, you don't want experimenting. Probably, he sees your Beau as a large fox. It was a mistake to talk to his owner over distance. It meant for the Welsh that you are scared of him and his owner, and loud voices meant the conflict (even without such intonations). Avoid them if you can. Terriers are fearless, and that one is ready for another kill.


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## carmspack

Nancy that is a hard one . On one of my regular walking routes there is a mansion of a house with double and triple security. The entire 20 acres is fenced with wrought iron fencing . There are a collection of dogs and electric fencing to keep them back from the iron fence . Any time you pass those dogs are out there displaying themselves , barking , following you along the full frontage . Dog at side LEAVE IT , keep walking , don't change pace , quiet praise for dog at side , do not focus on dog.
One of the things I have been doing with dogs in preparation for service is to have them do concentrated focus work in very close proximity to dogs barking furiously behind the barrier of a good fence . If it is a track , they should continue tracking , if it is a retrieval they should go in , pick up and return . I think there might be some visuals on the Nicholas thread . The acting out dogs are as much "furniture" as other dogs in the environment . Should there be a distraction and focus (other than an awareness that they are there)
then an authoritative LEAVE IT is used.
Keno , one of my earliest dogs with Metro Toronto , did a great deal of his work in back lanes of downtown Toronto , where many a stray dog was pulling edibles out of the garbage bins , home and commercial . He never got distracted by them.
Good thing -- on my walks I have dogs rush off the property and meet me on the road , including when I was biking my dog into town. Told dog , leave it , yelled at the top of my lungs to get the owner to hear and respond , and meanwhile used my bike as a shield against this seriously aggressive dog . Had my dog been anything but neutral or under self control I would have had a big problem , compounded into something totally unmanageable.

I used to ride my horse along these same routes. I handle it well , being totally comfortable with things "dog". The horse , who is cold blooded , (Rocky Mountain) , is another matter altogether. Had one encounter which left me with heart pounding , took all the pleasure out of it -- that was the last time for that . 
Most of these dogs have long gone to their rewards . Now it is traffic to contend with.

Speaking of large livestock. I do introduce my young pups to my horses (3 Rocky Mountain) -- about 7 to 8 weeks. Cradle them on my arm , feel that they are relaxed , present to curious horse , right to both sides of the nostrils. The horse takes in the information , the dog processes the information in its own manner and that is that . I can run the dogs in the field with horses in view and never have a dog feel the need to enter the paddock or bother the horses . The horses are totally blasé about the whole thing. The senior dogs have a trip to the paddock and water trough as part of their daily excursion. They will share a drink of water out of the trough , head together with the horse . Both are relaxed with each other.
The house immediately across from us (Jackson family) has a herd of black angus . They are often right at the property line . Dogs don't bother with them. In the spring there is some pretty impressive bellowing from them.
Just behind my back property line are 300 sheep (Jackson family) - same thing , dogs don't bother . The coyotes do .


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## NancyJ

Well that is pretty much what I did......we had a close encounter at a park and I put Beau in a sit stay and put myself between him and the other dog stepping forward and hollering to "go away" "no" and the dog did leave us. A teammate heard us and ran further interference. But I took fence yappers as a training opportunity. 

Offlead I am having to go back to some more obedience as he has taken a mind to "checking out other dogs" Only the strange ones, mind you and I can't have that. Part of me thinks that little female he ran over to visit may have been in heat based on how she put her tail to the side but that is NO excuse. I was able to work Grim right next to a female in heat..though he did have a momentary eyes glazed drooling expression but he snapped out of it.


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## David Winners

Nancy, I always strive for the dog to completely ignore other dogs while working. As Carmen said, they should be furniture. The dog must have a 100% reliable recall under extreme distraction. You must be able to protect the dog.

This is not hard to achieve, even at distance from handler, with the e-collar and the right training. The problem comes when the offending dogs are not restrained, and physical confrontation is possible. In Afghanistan, there are loose dogs everywhere. Some of them are just feral dogs who have very good social skills and choose survival over real confrontation the majority of the time. They put on a show to drive off the interlopers, but will yield when they see that the show isn't working. The dangerous dogs are those whose purpose is to guard homes or flocks. They will fight.

IME, the best way to deal with these dogs is to recall your dog before they come in contact, place it behind you in a down, and then either drive the guarding dog off with the help of flankers, contact the owner of the dog and have it removed, or in extreme circumstances you have to protect your dog with whatever means you have available.

It is important that your dog will continue to work in any situation, so as Carmen suggests, training under extreme distraction will condition Beau to ignore the strange dogs in favor of doing his job. A few successful searches in close proximity to dogs who are giving aggressive displays should show him that the work doesn't stop when another dog is barking.

It's interesting and fortunate that Beau doesn't react to aggressive displays with aggressive displays of his own. This means, to me, that he it's more socially adept and understands that there is no reason for the defensive dog to be making such a display. There is a lot of communication going on during these squabbles dogs have. IMHO, if there is no blood, they are working things out with the intent to get along, especially if they separate on their own, shake it off, and return to see the other dog again.

So, to answer your questions:

Your dog is already prepared for other dogs to be nasty. You have to build the necessary obedience to keep the dog safe. Recall and crittering training.

I don't assume that the nasty dog knows the language, so I drive the dog off instead of expecting my dog to handle it. I know it will understand my language.

I think you did the right thing teaching him to ignore yappers. You just need to build the appropriate tools into Beau that will allow you to control the situation as much as possible.


With all this being said, dogs will be dogs, and you have to be ready for anything. Bringing your dog back to you enables you to have more control over the situation and takes your dog out of the potential fight. If the dogs do get together and begin fighting, go to them and handle it to the best of your ability.

David Winners


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## David Winners

Sorry I got off topic.

David Winners


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## NancyJ

To me the relevancy is ...... dogs need to learn to ignore other dogs under all kinds of situations. ........ starting from day 1. Protect them and don't let them have a reason to fear other dogs. For the other, as you know we are working on it. As we speak I am replacing batteries in my Dogtra


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## carmspack

Nancy and David W here is what I am trying to explain -- 



 Nick has only been with Mike for a total of 4 days. In one portion of the youtube there is a collision between young Nick and his relative Badger , who virtually bowls him over. The pup picks himself up , gives a shake and continues to be focused on Mike. There is nothing that compels him to do so , no physical constraints, no use of tone or commands .




 
There is so much valuable information in this blog that I have to include it . This is how I have been doing it since I began being involved with dogs --- Mike was an excellent student ! All Things "Dog": September 2012

Nancy , selection does have something to do with it. Do you want me to make a comment on what I saw on Beau's puppy selection evaluation --- ? on this thread or PM? I spotted where the dog would present a challenge.


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## carmspack

this excerpt from the blog " it is best that the handler is viewed as being trustworthy and consistent as well as confident. The handler should be the primary focus and the center of the puppy's world and a source of direction when necessary"
is what I had said before on this thread . The result of good relationship building transfer socialization , in the time frame between 5/6 to 7/8 weeks . What you are building is CO OPERATION , the team , the bond of looking out for each other and achieving a common goal. If the pup selects me , nothing will go wrong .
It does not make a dog insecure , just the opposite , emboldens them . Never alone in doing a job even though there may be great physical distance . 
key words , the source of direction when necessary --- not micro managing and giving constant chatter input , not guiding the dog , not indicating to the dog or providing his answers. 
You should spend very little time telling the dog what not to do. Going in to homes to lend a bit of help and advice getting them through the pup stages (all breeds) you sit there and you observe . There is constant instruction prefaced with "no", don't do this, "no!" don't do that , don't do that or this or that either . The dog is going through an entire menu of offered behaviours , sooner or later will hit the correct response. How easy would it have been had that person said PUP do this ! direct and efficient and very worthwhile -- the person is trustworthy and the dog is happy to comply because you have made it worthwhile , positive intentions , positive response which is rewarded with positive approval , and maybe a treat.

Nancy you said "Offlead I am having to go back to some more obedience as he has taken a mind to "checking out other dogs" Only the strange ones, mind you and I can't have that."

Can you arrange a situation where you have total control of the environment which uses spun out snappy barking dogs behind a good chain link fence . Take the Beau dog on lead , approach in small increments all the while focusing on his body posture . I think you would be fairly skilled at reading your dog . The moment he is on the verge of no longer relaxed you move in beside and stay at that point moving parallel to the disturbance , making it very rewarding that he is attentive to YOU , letting it register with the dog that you and he are a team able to overcome the excitement .
That would be step one.


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## LifeofRiley

@ Carmspack and David Winners… because I respect both of you, I am directing this question at you.

If early socialization is so important, how does one explain the fact that I have fostered 15+ adolescent and adult dogs and I can’t think of one that did not quickly overcome any issues they may have had when they first arrived in my home. 

It should be added that a lot of these dogs came from a rural setting to an urban setting for fostering (I live in Chicago)… so, a lot of new experiences! : ) 

The vast majority had issues on leash upon arrival, but that was quickly solved. 
Several of them at first seemed wary of heavy pedestrian traffic combined with heavy car/bus/truck traffic at first… but, again, they quickly acclimated and were fine. 

Perhaps, my experience is due to selection bias, i.e…. rescues are more likely to take in dogs that don’t fail temperament tests. But, I know that is not the whole answer.

I am really curious about this. I hear a lot of nature/nurture arguments… My experience would lead me to believe that as long as a dog is not a 'hot mess' temperamentally/genetically - which I think is actually far more rare than people believe - most dogs will respond to training, engagement and leadership.

Maybe my definition of a “good dog” is lower than a performance home, but most pet homes (to which the majority of dogs are adopted out to) just want a dog that behaves in the home and can go anywhere with them without issue.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Final thought... both of my dogs have had random negative interactions with other dogs. As I have said, I live in a city, my last dog and my current dog come in contact with lots of different dog personalities... If my dogs were forever "ruined" by one bad interaction, that would be tough. I believe, that it is a sad statement about the state of the breed if that is something that could truly forever scar a dog.


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## carmspack

I should have added that when you approach this fence and chaos , have the dog doing something (on long lead) such as looking for a tossed glove or ball . You don't want him focused on you and you really don't want him focused on the nasty dogs . See at what point he is no longer relaxed and thinking clearly , where there is conflict . It is at that point that you prevent him from going forward , to flame his aroused state . At that point you move in beside him and move parallel . Keep doing very rewarding searches along this distance . You should be able to see a difference in body posture and energy.
Do your send outs and recalls along this line . Reward has to be so honest and so obvious , and that will be , not when you feel it has been so , but when the dog indicates that the message was received !

Trust . Control . equals more trust with less control necessary.


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## carmspack

LifeofRiley , your dogs may have been well socialized , but they were under experienced. 
that is easier to fix than bad socializing .


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## NancyJ

Carmen - certainly - if it is instructive enough to share, it would be interesting perhaps a new thread for puppy selection? That way others could play in, other videos etc. Probably too much of a tangent for THIS thread.


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## Lucy Dog

Mods should seriously consider making this thread a sticky.


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## brembo

I never did "socialize" my dogs much with other dogs. I'm terrified of Parvo. I did however throw as many unique situations at them as possible. I'm a Flexi lead person. Once I have good/great leash manners, I strap on the flexi and use a break command that allows for some tension on the line(spooling out). I can stand still and let the dog roam a bit and investigate things at the pace that keeps them from stressing. Great for thorny bushes and stuff that's just too low for me to deal with. Another command, sounds like "hup" drops the tension and I get a heel.

I know a whole whole lot of how well dogs take to being socially "proper" is in how the handler takes things in. An example is one experience in PetSmart with my old guy Banjo. Banjo was a saint on lead, bombproof, no issues. He was so good I could hand him off to other people on lead and I had no worries, he understood the lead was there to keep him close. In other words, he HAD it. Anyway....I was in PetSmart browsing, letting Banjo nose thru things when a man appeared in the isle. The guy looked JUST like my recently deceased father. Enough so that I gasped and stepped back, totally confused as to how my dead father just showed up in the store. Banjo didn't do well with that, he could not decide if he was going to protect or hide and was a ball of nerves. I'm super easy going and never get too excited around my dogs(except play) and Banjo lost his mind. Might have also been Banjo saw the exact same thing I did and wigged over that. Although I think Banjo was keying on me more than anything.


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## Colie CVT

I messed up considerably with my golden Myles when it came to socializing, and if it wasn't for the fact that he is the forgiving dog that he is (which truthfully I am amazed that he actually focuses better under stress than without it), I would likely have FAR more issues with him than I do. I thought dog parks were a good way to socialize with other dogs. I didn't want to neuter him until he was over a year old (in part as it took until he was nearly 5 months for his second testicle to descend), for the benefits to how he would develop among other things. Once he started to hit around 6 months of age, any time we went to that park it was going to have some kind of nightmare. I was lucky that Myles was such a non-confrontational dog. He was constantly bullied/harassed by other dogs. Once a beagle dashed into the double gate system and was over him, within seconds of me opening the gate into the park. 

I am extremely lucky. Myles is 100% trustworthy with other dogs. He will ignore them if asked to, is very calm in greeting them, actually lays down when meeting smaller dogs so that they'll come closer to him. He's had a dog walked literally into him by a trainer at Petsmart with no other reaction than glancing down at the little cavalier (how that guy didn't notice us, I still don't get). 

Somewhere in everything, Myles decided that strangers were scary. That bikes, skateboards, strollers, and especially children were scary. I don't ask him to deal with everyone that we meet. I tell everyone that they can attempt to say hello, but he is shy and often doesn't like attention. It's taken a few years, many MANY treats and a lot of patience, but he is no longer reactive around bikes, strollers, skateboards, rollerblades and most people that we come across. Children are still harder, however, as long as they are calm/not looking at him, he can pass near/by them without hitting the end of the leash or running past. But again, due to some lack of exposure, he thought these things scary and its made a much harder road for us. 

I am not sure who socialized my older shepherd, but she is very good at ignoring/calming meeting other dogs. Someone had a reactive westie once at the local pet food store that I go to when I had to go to check out. I simply got their attention, asked Leia and Myles to sit so they were facing me and the threat was removed from that little dog, so it calmed down and sniffed them curiously. It was a shock to the owner of the smaller dog. We go hiking with a bunch of dogs/people every week, and she is very gracious with ignoring the other dogs (even if they get a little growly/pushy with her), and is polite in greeting the other hikers, if she feels like it. I don't force interactions, but this hiking group we have been in has been nice. The people can interact, the dogs have a HUGE range of area to roam in. Very minimal conflict.

Thankfully I have learned my lesson, as I got a new puppy recently. He seems curious/interested in new dogs and people. I don't force him to greet anybody. He does so if he wants to. He comes with me to my job with my golden, so strange sounds/scents don't seem to bother him. He's curious and bold right now. Hoping it stays that way, but his interactions I keep controlled in that it's with people/dogs I know aren't going to be pushy or inappropriate with him.  So time will tell, but I certainly did learn with thankfully a very forgiving dog.


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## LifeofRiley

carmspack said:


> LifeofRiley , your dogs may have been well socialized , but they were under experienced.
> that is easier to fix than bad socializing .


I can guarantee you that some of my foster dogs were not well socialized. I know their history and it was not pretty.

As to my personal dogs...

Riley was found as a stray... so, you are right, no way to know! 

The dog I had before Riley was abandoned as a 7 month old! My roommate, at the time, alerted me to the situation. I took him in. Wow, talk about memories. I still miss that dog. He was 14 when he passed.


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## carmspack

not sure how you can guarantee that . there are periods of development which are critical to socializing . always , it is what the genetics allow , then to training or neglect the dog has experienced. I am talking about a mature dog with unknown history.
this thread is aimed more at some of the I am on mission, list in hand , must achieve these tasks . Often all that you get is an over stimulated, over excited dog , with more than he can properly deal with , creating tension and problems down the road .


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## LifeofRiley

carmspack said:


> this thread is aimed more at some of the I am on mission, list in hand , must achieve these tasks . Often all that you get is an over stimulated, over excited dog , with more than he can properly deal with , creating tension and problems down the road .


Okay, sorry. I didn't mean to de-rail the thread : )

Also, I feel a bit badly by my post where I singled you and David Winners out to respond. I did not mean to imply that the POV/experiences of others who have contributed to this thread are somehow less important or meaningful. I have actually found all the posts on this thread to be very thoughtful and interesting.


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## NancyJ

Actually, I have seen people do the same thing with human babies...flooding... "Oh I took my newborn to a Pink Floyd concert and he just slept right through it"...uh, yes....newborns "shut down" when they are overwhelmed. You don't want to keep them under a bubble but can overdo it. EDIT, sorry I am showing my age. Taking grand kids to see Arlo Guthrie in a few weeks .


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## doggiedad

i think a dog is damaged if you don't socialize them early.
depending on the dog you may be able to socialize them later
on in life.


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## marbury

I used to do that '100+ New Experiences' list with my pups. Initially I felt like I failed a pup if I skipped a few days of making a specific effort or didn't do much for a week. Then when I saw as adults that it didn't make much of a difference I reevaluated. As long as they got out and about with me that was all it took. Genetics are so, so important. I took my nervy and insecure male out everywhere as a pup, positive experiences, no flooding... And he's still deep down nervy and insecure. 
I got my most recent bitch at a busy time and only got out into the world a few days a week; rock solid dog. Genetics matter. 

Now, absolutely NO stimulation plus bad genetics is a horrible situation. The mill rescue labradoodle (now over 5) knew one house, one female human, and nothing else for the first 14 months of his life. He's terrified of hats, beards, fast-moving people; he's racist, sexist, and fearful. I believe that had he been at lest somewhat exposed to anything resembling normal he would have turned out a much better dog. It certainly wouldn't have left him 'normal', but he wouldn't be as dysfunctional as he is.


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## carmspack

lol , seen any "baby einsteins" running around?
I think you may enjoy the book [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/The-Genius-Factory-Curious-History/dp/0812970527[/ame]
now , they can't even wait for the baby to be born ! on a recent (I believe it was) Shark Tank - one of the applicants had a set of buds which were placed on a pregnant woman's abdomen to pipe in music and I suppose read pieces of great literature? to enhance the development of the unborn babies brain.

back to the bow wows --- no one is saying do not socialize . How in the world did we have so many good stable well adapted dogs in our parents and grand parents days ? The dogs were "there" . It is not the quantity of the experience , or the quantity of people met or places been to , but the quality , and the understanding that you can create a good out come , or an unintended operant conditioned response - by your , the handlers anxiety , bad timing , pressure.
The handler may see a reaction which they do not like , and instead of moving on , till the dog is more mature , or even a better subject who does not produce this reaction , they feel they have to correct and fix a problem. So they keep replicating the experience , then soothe the dog with baby talk , or stroking , or treating , or having the stranger treat - pushing the agenda. 

Socializing will not correct the dogs innate temperament. Genetics play a large factor in what can and what can not be. Some are born shy , some high defense , sharp . This determined by pedigree and by breed . Not all breeds react the same way . That was one of the findings in the Fuller Scott study . Over a 20 year period they used 5 breeds. Herding breeds by nature were more sensitive , more perceptive of human influence , the general atmosphere , and needed more quality experience . It is easy to see how poor or stressful exposure can work against you . Quickly.


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## carmspack

,
ack , I said all that and forgot to say that a great deal of socializing is for your benefit as it allows you to see what the dog is like . You are not second guessing . That way you can choose experiences and levels of stress which are appropriate for your dog , at that time. This is how you protect your dog , by setting up situations which are win win.

It is absolutely impossible to test your dog for everything , or provide an example of everything possible under the sun. You don't know when a nearby car might back fire, and you don't set up an experience for this possibility , in an attempt to expose or condition the dog . 
Here is a personal example. Maybe some 15 years or so ago I had a couple of errands in my old downtown Toronto neighbourhood (Riverdale) . I parked the van in front of one of the houses we used to own , got the dog out of the back , and prepared to walk the rest of the way . When I dropped down to Queen and Ashdale I walked toward Broadview peering into vintage shop windows , making notes on where I would return to once the dog was back in the van . Now inspired with a memory of a vintage radio shop closer to Broadview I picked up the pace . Well several miles later , as I get closer to Queen and Degrassi , there is a lot of commotion . I keep on going . Who in the world would be prepared to encounter a very large , mature, ELEPHANT , which was being filmed for a commercial.
We stood behind the action , with the film crew, a few that I knew , (tenant) .

The dog was fine even as the lumbering animal was turned around to walk into our direction. I was perfectly calm , pretty amazed with this highly unusual encounter . The people in the vicinity were all normal and relaxed and confidently competent .

Now if that elephant had picked up pace and started running towards me I would have scrambled , leading to an entirely different imprint left in the dogs mind in how to regard "elephants"


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## Stosh

I agree with what Lillie said. We were in the ACK STAR Puppy class and then CGC and I know I pushed Stosh to allow contact from strange people and dogs when he was giving signs that he didn't want to- like peeing, backing up with ears down, stuff like that. I should have been taught to watch for signs that it was too much too soon. He's been very well socialized all along and has never met a dog he didn't want to play with but I'm wondering now if his initial contact with other dogs is "I''m in charge" is a result.


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## Jax08

funny the conversation I had wtih my trainer today. Not sure how we got on the topic. She said she has stopped letting the puppy socialization class socialize freely. She said it turned into a free for all and the pups then thought all interaction with dogs should be a free for all. 

She said it make no difference in the puppies...the bullies were still bullies, the timid still timid.


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## Blanketback

I had a chance encounter with a loose neighborhood dog yesterday. I was out sweeping the snow off the vehicles, and my pup was waiting for me to finish, and then we'd play some frisbee like usual.

This dog has some DA issues, and they've tried to play together before, but I've ended up having to swing my leash at the dog to keep it from being too aggressive. We hadn't seen this dog in almost 6 months, since the owner isn't letting it run loose as much, after other neighbors complainted to AC. Duh.

Anyhow, I was none to pleased to see him. I said, "Hi Boy" in a friendly way, and kicked the brush end off my broom to make a nice impaler out of it. $10 gone, but oh well. I was nervous because of their past interactions, and now that my pup is older and bolder, what would happen? His frisbee was out there, would that start something between them? I showed nothing but great confidence and went over to them.

Well didn't my pup decide to try to play, using the technique my cat taught him - and that other dogs don't seem to like much - the 'bat you in the chest' move. I said to leave it, and called him back before he annoyed the dog even more. I was going to grab the frisbee, but thought it best to leave it since neither dog was noticing it. Oops, my pup grabbed it as we passed it. I called him into the house, and we went through and into the back yard where we had the nice game we were intending on. Yay, nothing happened, and my pup was more interested in me than in that dog. Phew! I need a new broom, but so what.


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## alexg

jocoyn said:


> Actually, I have seen people do the same thing with human babies...flooding... "Oh I took my newborn to a Pink Floyd concert and he just slept right through it"...uh, yes....newborns "shut down" when they are overwhelmed. You don't want to keep them under a bubble but can overdo it. EDIT, sorry I am showing my age. Taking grand kids to see Arlo Guthrie in a few weeks .


Pink Floyd? A Deep Purple concert would be the real test.


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## carmspack

Cliff might remember this . 
John Sinykin , a man I greatly admired , is remembered with a two page obit (1983) on my wall in my office.
Mr Sinykin, Cliff , had his own strain of GSD under the kennel name of LaSalle . He held the distinction of having trained the first guide dog in USA - 1926, established the first guide school "Master Eye School" and until 1983 had the longest continual line . Over his 57 year career he personally trained 3000 guide dogs .
His moto was Temperament always comes first.

What a rare and amazing man.

When you want to study socialization , especially the importance to resulting with a successful working dog , what better organizations to study than those who have volume experience and who can grade results. 
..interruption.. continue later


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## David Taggart

Good temperament cannot replace intelligence. I knew it before I bought my new puppy, otherwise I'd get some dog of a "friendly" breed. The majority of you here are mentally mature people, you knew what could you face if your dog turns too agressive, too nervous, yet, you chose GSD. Why? Because they are intelligent and stand above all other breeds. There are incredibly intelligent mongrels, collies, poodles, labs and many other dogs, but they are individuals, you wouldn't say that the whole breed is intelligent. Do you really want to be this breed a part of some fashionable program? What, not enough white mice in the lab? No, vegetables or mice cannot represent *America as a country of friendly critters*. I know exactly what is going on behind it: somebody (and they are many) want to succeed, their books printed, their programs pushed forward by selling them to you. This sort of program creators feed on new GSD owners. OK, it is you, who are mentally mature and morally solid, but people on this Forum are not the only GSD owners, only those who are interested in this breed more or less seriously. Someone somewhere said that 75% of humanity are the sheep and have to be herded. Exactly them didn't want to know neither who Max Emil Friedrich von Stephanitz was, nor about the breed, when they bought their GSD puppy, they simply wanted to be "up to date people" having a friendly family pet, whom any stranger could ride with a little of help from Petsmart and elephants. Wikipedia describes GSD temperament as "self-assured", I suppose, someone has an idea to correct that page.


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## Harry and Lola

LOL Blanketback


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## carmspack

continuation inspired by http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...counter-my-20-week-gsd-just-had-bird-dog.html

Exposure is only one part of socializing the dog. First experiences especially tend to leave their mark on the dog and can form the behavior that you will get from him as an adult . 

Socializing is cumulative. Instead of a vast number of experiences have each one a positive , rewarding one . No need to be obsessive trying to meet 100 people , or go to a set number of places .

I can go into complex territory where heart rate and rectal temperature , each increased under stress, are registered even though that pup appears to be getting the treat from the stranger as in encouragement to be okay and social around people.
Young dogs that were left to make decisions on their own showed physical stress. Dogs that were corrected , signs of physical stress. The dog that did best was the dog that had a partner who was proactive and gave the dog instructions on what to DO , not the negative don't do this , but the positive DO this . A dog , distracted, told to leave it , and praised , did better , as far as stress level , than the dog that took it on his own to approach - dog , person , object.
Straight from the start . Correct from the start. Get the behavior you want as an adult from the pup .
Positive . The clearer it is , the more experiences are positive , the more you show an engagement with the dog , the connection , the bond , the trust , the more all future experiences can be taken in stride .


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## selzer

100 new experiences by 16 weeks, really doesn't sound that terrible for the owner to accomplish between 8 weeks and 16 weeks. That is 56 days, so approximately 2 new people, places, or things per day. 

I think the problem is with that, is the humanity of trying to catch up after skipping, or trying to do all the socialization on the weekend, or during a trip to the more populated area once a week. 100 divided by 16, or worse yet, 8 days means you end up flooding the puppy. 

I think that people can introduce problems by over-whelming a puppy during the critical socialization stage -- 3-16 weeks or somewhere in that time-frame. I think they tend to hold these experiences as a type of association so that positive socialization experiences during this period can contribute some lasting positive associations, that dogs can draw from down the line. But negative experiences can cause some negative associations. 

It is absolutely impossible, and perhaps unhelpful to completely eliminate any possibility of negative associations. What is more important than the situation itself, is our response to the situation in the presence of the puppy. The human can make a negative situation a neutral situation if they do not over-react. 

A human can also make a neutral situation a negative situation by over-reacting, reacting inappropriately. Dogs are pretty tough, even puppies. We can say to a two year old that falls down, "Shake it off." But to a puppy, we ooh and apologize and coddle, and may to the pup serious damage, more damage than the charging toy dog that bit the pup on the nose. We might have really not wanted that experience to happen, but once it had, we compound it by our response to it, whether we are shouting at the other dog's owners or coddling our puppy. 

I think that high strung people can take the temperament that a dog has, and cause it to fall at the lower end of its potential, while a person who tends to be more relaxed and easy going, is more likely to have a dog in the middle or at the upper end of its potential. 

I think with some people tons of socialization will not hurt a puppy. And with other people tons of socialization will make things worse. If people are trying to get their 10 introductions in today, and they are getting more and more nervous, uptight, etc, as the time goes on, as the puppy is getting more hyper or more crazy, or whatever signs the puppy tends to show to indicate it has had enough for one day -- that isn't good. 

If this same person takes the puppy out, and STOPS at one-two introductions, there is much less likelihood that the pup will become overwhelmed and the handler will have to over-react.

Sorry, rambling, after midnight.


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## Liesje

I'm big on early socialization, not so I can achieve some arbitrary number of socialization attempts, but because it's important to me that my dogs match my lifestyle and that I know sooner rather than later whether that is the case. I live in the city, I take my dogs many places, I have family and friends randomly coming into my home. I NEED dogs that are well socialized and have learned to recognize who belongs and who doesn't. Many dogs have never been exposed to half the stuff my puppies see their first week home. Now I'm the first to agree that GENETICS is first and foremost, so a solid nerved puppy doesn't have to be socialized to grow into a stable adult. But the difference for me is that if there are any issues with my dog, I'd like to know right away. I'm not training my dog to accept all the things I socialize him for; rather, I'm giving myself a chance to observe all these interactions and see if the dog I thought I was getting is the dog I have in front of me. If I see anything I don't like, then it's plenty early to work harder on that aspect and see if I can get the results I want within the spectrum of that dog's genetic temperament.

Most times when someone tells me they don't have to socialize their dogs or that it's not important....to that person, it's not. Typically these folks aren't living in a city, they aren't taking a dog on road trips multiple times a month (or if they are, the dog is in a dog trailer, not free in a hotel room with other dogs and people and expected to be calm and quiet), often the dogs are very good working/sport dogs but are usually kenneled or on crate-and-rotate schedules and don't have to prove they can live harmoniously in a very urban environment with other dogs and many people. Likewise, I rarely expose my pets to livestock because I've only been on a farm once or twice in my life and it's not something we come across. If my circumstances were different, I'd probably be bringing my puppy around chickens, cattle, horses, etc instead of crossing 6 lanes of traffic and spending weekends at busy hotels.

Early socialization has always worked for me in the way I've intended it to work so I'll keep on doing it. For one, I enjoy puppies when they are in their "sponge" phase of learning and soaking up everything they can. I don't see the fun in getting a puppy only to keep it tucked away so I won't mistakenly damage it. I try to get puppies with sound temperaments and genetics that match my desired outcome.


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## carmspack

what is the nature of that social encounter?
what is the best way to take a socially inhibited pup and come out of social experience on a positive note . There is where the problems are. The primary pup and owner relationship has to have a good foundation. FIRST the pup has to know who you are, acclimate to his new world, routine , communication . Create the right environment. From the beginning set rules on how to be social IN , within , the home . That includes instructing the dog on how to meet someone at the door , how to greet a visitor . This is often forgotten in talk about socializing . 
First the pup has to have a sense of belonging . That is his security.
Since you are home-based , what better time to work on recalls, move away from him , turn around , and call him. He will already be in motion toward you so you are capitalizing on something in progress. Big rewards. Get the collar on . Get the dog accustomed to wearing a light leash . All positive . Not only is the dog learning good conduct , he is learning how to learn. You are setting up the good behaviors consistent with future training .

Your end of the bargain is don't disappoint, don't be disappointed, don't lie to the dog, don't be pressured by friends' expectations or by expectations from strangers. 
Many times people come on the forum , brand new puppy , not even days later , out in some pup class, dog park, petsmarty. 
It is not about quantity , certainly is about quality. 
Consider things from the dogs perspective. Worst thing is to have this "list" with specific goals and a dog pushed to meet that goal .
more later..............


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## carmspack

Liesje, I know where you are coming from - agree -- but that would not be the good course , but not all dogs are blessed with good genetics. In the interest of forum members with dogs with insecurities , I would slow down , and manage the environment more to the dogs benefit, building confidence and trust , interest and focus on he handler.


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## Liesje

I think common sense goes a long way when raising and socializing a young puppy. If you get a bad vibe, don't push it. None of my puppies have been perfect even though I've been very happy with them and how they fit as far as what I wanted at the time. Right now I have a 13 week old that has started barking at some other dogs. I do not correct him for it nor do I take him around and purposely "flood" him with exposure to other dogs, I just observe when he does it, what his body language is like, etc. and make a mental note to myself. He is a very vocal dog and so is his father so I'm not really surprised. He also has a lot of contact and play time with other dogs so I am not worried that he's going to be labeled "not good with dogs". It is what it is, he's going through a very vocal barking stage, lol, even giving me his two cents at times. Some people would come on this forum and start saying "my baby puppy is so dog aggressive!" In that sense, you are absolutely right, people need to just slooooooow down and not read so much into every little reaction. However I still feel it is important and valuable to ME to expose my puppies to a wide variety of things starting at day 1. Some of the things we do are things that most dogs aren't going to be 100% comfortable with the first time. For example we go up/down an exterior elevator that has glass sides. Nikon has done this so many times he automatically sits at the door while we wait, then enters the elevator and sits inside. He probably knows what button to push to go up! The elevator is not scary at all (he probably gets a little too excited since he knows we're going to his favorite place to play fetch). A lot of dogs get inside a glass elevator and look like they are trying to grip the floor with their claws, but after one or two rides up and down are totally cool with it.


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## Oskar's Human

What about socializing your puppy with your cats? One of my cats loves Oskar, they play together and even when they get rough my cat wont fully extend his claws when he strikes him. 

I have another cat though who just the other day, after striking Oskar, who then backed away, chased him down and grabbed onto both sides of his body, claws extended. The poor puppy rushed over to me super spooked and then fell asleep after a few whines in my lap. 

Should I not have picked him up? Should I have interfered? I'd like to teach him boundaries but I am nervous that this cat isn't picking up on Oskar's cues. (for instance he typically approaches the cats and then lies down and puts his head down, in dog world he is showing submissive in cat world he is showing... erm.. not sure there)


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## carmspack

socializing means showing the dog proper conduct in an environment or situation. 
The cats deserve safety and respect in their home. They are not animated toys for the dog to go and have fun with . 
Your supervision , should have intervened and redirected the pup , instead of looking on it as play or cute. The cat and dog are more or less equal in size , at the moment, but that will quickly change. The dog can do some very serious harm to the cat , or become a chronic cat chaser .
I have two cats currently. At one point we had a total of 5 , all rescues . They had their throne in the sunroom , the dogs could come and go . The cats had the security that the dogs were not interested in them (just their food!) and so did not run . When the dogs were pups , they were exposed to the cats in the house as they crossed paths or had casual encounters. As long as the pup behaved the cat would allow it to sniff it all over . Pup get testy , the cat would put on a display, draw the line in the sand, cross that and you get a swat . Deserved. Lesson learned . No soothing or babying on my part .
Leave the cat. 
never mind " this cat isn't picking up on Oskar's cues. (for instance he typically approaches the cats and then lies down and puts his head down, in dog world he is showing submissive in cat world " 
sure it is -- the dog is stalking the cat -- YOU aren't picking up the cues and showing the dog what you expect .

An ounce of prevention - is worth a pound of cure.


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## carmspack

Liesje , your nice dog and my dog have one enormous advantage . Good genetics. And very importantly a good foundation in being well socialized prior to 8 weeks . There is a big difference between continuing socializing , and rehabilitating a pup which received inadequate social contact , or the opposite, lived in constant hotmess of chaos and over stimulation.
Those were the dogs I had in mind when I opened this thread .
Confidence has to be manufactured. Doing it as some fast pace , with earnest good intentions, to fulfill meeting so many people, be in so many places, take them on marathon walks , to classes, to dog parks , to meet so many pups -- that is overload. Some dogs can't take it into stride. You have to have a sensitivity , and when the dog is reticent , or vacillates , then you have to have the sense to stop there , let the dog handle it from that place , that space , bring back to last safe-comfort zone , and make it positive. Rushing on insisting that the dog is going to meet that person , come **** or high water , is not going to work . If the owner gets all bent out of shape , show embarrassment or anxiety , anger , it is going to take that much longer , if any remedy is possible.


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## wolfy dog

Carmen, I have already implemented some of the "new" strategies, which make so much sense, like no oohing and aahing the new puppy (DD)with visitors. One of my friends was actually offended when I asked him to ignore the pup. DD is fine with people around him but not pushy at all so I need to keep that up. But it is so hard for people to ignore something so cute. But I am sure they will appreciate it when they meet him off leash as an adolescent.


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## Liesje

The cat/dog thing isn't really a socialization issue. Some cats just freak out around dogs. I used to have a cat that NEVER got used to having dogs around. The others were fine with it but one cat hated dogs and always stayed in the "cat safe" zones when the dogs were awake. I would say that is more an issue of management and training the dog the boundaries at the right stage as well as providing cats with safe places away from puppy/dog.


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## Twyla

I have been following this thread- tons of GOOD discussion and information. 

I would love to see it as a sticky; not just under General puppy, but also puppy behavior, development and socialization, even under the Aggression forum. Huge request but this aspect of puppies early lives can have such an impact on them, it is to important to be buried in the pages.


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## marbury

Twyla said:


> I have been following this thread- tons of GOOD discussion and information.
> 
> I would love to see it as a sticky; not just under General puppy, but also puppy behavior, development and socialization, even under the Aggression forum. Huge request but this aspect of puppies early lives can have such an impact on them, it is to important to be buried in the pages.


I agree. This sort of discussion is way more valuable to me than any book on 'how to raise a puppy' because you see so many points of view.


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## Liesje

carmspack said:


> Liesje , your nice dog and my dog have one enormous advantage . Good genetics. And very importantly a good foundation in being well socialized prior to 8 weeks . There is a big difference between continuing socializing , and rehabilitating a pup which received inadequate social contact , or the opposite, lived in constant hotmess of chaos and over stimulation.
> Those were the dogs I had in mind when I opened this thread .
> Confidence has to be manufactured. Doing it as some fast pace , with earnest good intentions, to fulfill meeting so many people, be in so many places, take them on marathon walks , to classes, to dog parks , to meet so many pups -- that is overload. Some dogs can't take it into stride. You have to have a sensitivity , and when the dog is reticent , or vacillates , then you have to have the sense to stop there , let the dog handle it from that place , that space , bring back to last safe-comfort zone , and make it positive. Rushing on insisting that the dog is going to meet that person , come **** or high water , is not going to work . If the owner gets all bent out of shape , show embarrassment or anxiety , anger , it is going to take that much longer , if any remedy is possible.


I think the last sentence is important. So I may do a lot more exposure and socialization than most but I try to stay really cool about it. Like I said, I'm mostly gauging the dog's reactions for my own observation and benefit. It's not really a training session; there's no "wrong" thing where if the dog doesn't get it I'll get frustrated and we have to repeat it over and over. If the dog shows some hesitation I do not coddle, just encourage and we try again later. I don't believe in "flooding" (forcing a dog into a situation over and over) as a way to train dogs or modify behavior. I do believe in genetics, absolutely, but sometimes I think "nurture" plays a bigger role than a lot of us like to believe. If we've done nothing with a dog and it turns out nice, we like to thank genetics. If we've done everything right and a dog turns out crappy, we like to blame genetics. Genetics is very important but still, no dog is genetically perfect. There's a lot of wiggle room. I see puppies as self-fulfilling prophecies. If I worry and show concern, the dog might pick up on that. If I have to constantly pick up and carry my dog up/down the stairs or outside to potty, why would he ever do it himself? I try to give the puppy the benefit of the doubt, that even though he's not perfect and might hesitate in a few situations, he's still willing to try. I don't like to coddle them but I do try to give them little challenges that set them up for success. If I had a reason to believe a dog would be scared of doing down a set of steep, slippery, open-backed stairs I probably wouldn't ask him to do that until he went up and down some carpeted ones first. My dogs aren't getting a free pass as puppies because I believe the genetics are sound, but my expectations should match their age or any other considerations. 

Also I don't know if it matters but a lot of my "socialization" stuff is not geared towards being manhandled by other people. I'm talking about exposure to various smells, sights, and sounds indoors and out. The glass elevator, the bridge across the highway, a construction zone, walking across metal drain grates, slippery linoleum, going down steep stairs that have open backs, listening to a jack hammer or a high powered air compressor. That's the kind of stuff we're doing...not just going to the pet store and letting random people and dogs charge over and start touching my dog. At any given day at work I walk past/through half those scenarios without even trying.


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## carmspack

this is so well stated on dog parks , as I said trainers love dog parks , brings in lots of customers Dog Parks | Ahimsa Dog Blog


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## Chip18

Oskar's Human said:


> What about socializing your puppy with your cats? One of my cats loves Oskar, they play together and even when they get rough my cat wont fully extend his claws when he strikes him.
> 
> I have another cat though who just the other day, after striking Oskar, who then backed away, chased him down and grabbed onto both sides of his body, claws extended. The poor puppy rushed over to me super spooked and then fell asleep after a few whines in my lap.
> 
> Should I not have picked him up? Should I have interfered? I'd like to teach him boundaries but I am nervous that this cat isn't picking up on Oskar's cues. (for instance he typically approaches the cats and then lies down and puts his head down, in dog world he is showing submissive in cat world he is showing... erm.. not sure there)


I'm confused here? Is the dog stalking the cat or is the cat stalking the dog? I never allowed my dogs to step one paw forward towards the cats, if the cats chose to come to the dog, no problem,

Not sure on who's stalking who in your case?


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## Chip18

carmspack said:


> this is so well stated on dog parks , as I said trainers love dog parks , brings in lots of customers Dog Parks | Ahimsa Dog Blog


Now that article should be a sticky for those who insist on taking there dog to a dog park! . 

Myself and my dogs "not" being among them,


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## Chip18

Rocky my GSD taught me the value of ignore and move on. The breed of dog has a bearing on the issue also. My BullMastiff/Pit mix and my Boxer loved, people they learned to ignore other dogs,Vet visits and dog parades were not an issue for them. 

Everyone one wanted to see Struddell White Boxer and she loved the attention and Pitt people loved Gunther ,neither of them had an issue with strangers it was just there nature. So they were free to engage if people "chose" to do so

Rocky Blk GSD...not so much! I got him as a 7 month old as a rescue and I would have though he would have been used to strangers?? We had guest over for the first time and he growled at them???

Got him away from company, got a muzzle and instituted "move on and ignore" step in front and a "no you can't pet my dog policy" no forced intros whatsoever, No people meeting no doggie intro, dogs and people became furniture to him.

After a few weeks dropped the use of the muzzle, when I knew how to "read "him. We went to vaccine day (without the muzzle) all kinds of howling, barking, vet biting, little dog craziness. Kept Rocky by my side on a loose leash, He stood calmly by my side observing the goings on without interest. His turn comes and again no issues, no muzzle and no problems,:laugh:

He still doesn't welcome company with open "paws" but he's no longer a threat to guest. Had I insisted on him being the happy go lucky "never met a stranger I did not like" I love everybody kind of dog my other dogs were, I don't know what I would have today?

But today he's a confident, self assured, safe in public example of a well behaved GSD! That's all I wanted from him and it's what he delivered once, I understood what his limits were and made allowances for his needs !


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## RocketDog

Liesje said:


> I think the last sentence is important. So I may do a lot more exposure and socialization than most but I try to stay really cool about it. Like I said, I'm mostly gauging the dog's reactions for my own observation and benefit. It's not really a training session; there's no "wrong" thing where if the dog doesn't get it I'll get frustrated and we have to repeat it over and over. If the dog shows some hesitation I do not coddle, just encourage and we try again later. I don't believe in "flooding" (forcing a dog into a situation over and over) as a way to train dogs or modify behavior. I do believe in genetics, absolutely, but sometimes I think "nurture" plays a bigger role than a lot of us like to believe. If we've done nothing with a dog and it turns out nice, we like to thank genetics. If we've done everything right and a dog turns out crappy, we like to blame genetics. Genetics is very important but still, no dog is genetically perfect. There's a lot of wiggle room. I see puppies as self-fulfilling prophecies. If I worry and show concern, the dog might pick up on that. If I have to constantly pick up and carry my dog up/down the stairs or outside to potty, why would he ever do it himself? I try to give the puppy the benefit of the doubt, that even though he's not perfect and might hesitate in a few situations, he's still willing to try. I don't like to coddle them but I do try to give them little challenges that set them up for success. If I had a reason to believe a dog would be scared of doing down a set of steep, slippery, open-backed stairs I probably wouldn't ask him to do that until he went up and down some carpeted ones first. My dogs aren't getting a free pass as puppies because I believe the genetics are sound, but my expectations should match their age or any other considerations.
> 
> Also I don't know if it matters but a lot of my "socialization" stuff is not geared towards being manhandled by other people. I'm talking about exposure to various smells, sights, and sounds indoors and out. The glass elevator, the bridge across the highway, a construction zone, walking across metal drain grates, slippery linoleum, going down steep stairs that have open backs, listening to a jack hammer or a high powered air compressor. That's the kind of stuff we're doing...not just going to the pet store and letting random people and dogs charge over and start touching my dog. At any given day at work I walk past/through half those scenarios without even trying.


This is how I've always viewed socialization. I don't expose my pup to something I feel could be dangerous or detrimental, but I do try to expose them to as much environmentally as possible, always with a calm, matter-of-fact attitude of 'this is great! You're fine, capable, and this is no big deal". Consequently, it seems that all my dogs have been fine about anything. The few times they have shown any hesitation, just a small encouragement from me is enough to get them to push on and be 'fine' with it. 

I did let Rocket meet more dogs than I kind of wish I had, in retrospect. He didn't play with a lot of pups, more along the lines of one or two older, well-mannered dogs. We didn't 'seek' encounters either. But I let him meet dogs at PetSmart, etc. His genetics were already there in terms of him being a social dog, and I didn't need to encourage this. It took me a bit of time to go back and teach him every dog we see does not need to be 'greeted'. I would do that differently with him if I could go back.


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## carmspack

in order to solve a behavioural problem people often create an even worse problem , reinforcing the cause -- example having strangers feed the pup treats to make them more "social" luring them into a scary interaction . This is just wrong for GSD as it is contrary to their breed specific aloofness . 

A book I would highly recommend , great insights into behaviour, is

Fired Up, Frantic , and Freaked Out --- Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out: Training the Crazy Dog from Over the Top to Under Control: Laura VanArendonk Baugh: 9780985934927: Amazon.com: Books


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## Chip18

carmspack said:


> in order to solve a behavioural problem people often create an even worse problem , reinforcing the cause -- example having strangers feed the pup treats to make them more "social" luring them into a scary interaction . This is just wrong for GSD as it is contrary to their breed specific aloofness .
> 
> A book I would highly recommend , great insights into behaviour, is
> 
> Fired Up, Frantic , and Freaked Out --- Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out: Training the Crazy Dog from Over the Top to Under Control: Laura VanArendonk Baugh: 9780985934927: Amazon.com: Books


My guy has had no harm from late socialization. We got him at 7 months and don't know what his early life was like but he made it clear the first time we had company that he was clearly not a people loving Boxer! (low growl at company) I would have thought as a rescue he would be used to people??

Anyway I took him for walks and he "saw" people. If I stopped and talked, I stood between him and who ever I spoke with. Nobody was allowed to touch him for about a year. And nobody was certainly not allowed to give him treats! Just regular exposure to daily life. 

When I finally let someone touch him he had no reaction at all, it was just everyday business. He can go everywhere I need to go without issue. 

Had I forced him to interact with folks and had people giving him treats? I have no idea what he'd be like today? As it is he's a confident well balanced GSD that is safe in public and late socialization has done him no harm! And has the GSD aloofness well intact!


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## volcano

I brought my girl to a dog park when she was young. She did get tackled and hid under me. She is submissive around dogs, she always starts the conversation with her ears back and aggressive little dogs have her backing off. Its great to me, I dont mind her being nice one bit. I think a dog park can be a form of a breeding test, if your dog doesnt have the temperament to handle a dog park then maybe it shouldnt be bred. I went to a shutz trainer whos dog was supposedly "clear in the head" at protection. I couldnt even walk my dog past its cage without it freaking, he said that years ago a dog barked at it through a fence and it has always been reactive since. Its supposedly a dog that should be bred to. Clear in the head??? A bad dog park dog could harass mine and shell just come back to me, the pack leader. She doesnt need to scuffle, she is focused on me while the other dogs run around. They do start off with all of them sniffing her and she raises her leg like a male to let them get a good whiff.


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## SoCal Rebell

I took my 12 week old GSD to dog park for the first time today after getting his 3rd set of shots, I know I should of waited till 15 weeks when he gets his final rabies vaccine but I knew most of the dogs and people there so I took him and his big sister Golden Retriever Dory. He was off to the races, 1st time he ran up to every dog and backed down from none, even when he got nipped at by an adult GSD for getting too close to his toy.

To me as with all my previous GSDs everything is a learning experience good or bad, my last GSD who was the total alpha male shares the same grandfather as my present Rebell and everything points to Rebell is going to be the same alpha as my previous Cutter.


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## carmspack

Again , sorry for your loss of Cutter .

new dog -- do you think this is the best way to socialize?

the dog already has an adult friendly breed dog to interact with at home. At the dog park he has already been "obnoxious" . The adult dogs, thankfully have been tolerant of the youngster -- but apparently are sending signals for the young dog to temper his wild enthusiasm , even getting nipped ! too much . "he ran up to every dog and backed down from none, even when he got nipped at by an adult GSD for getting too close '
This tolerance won't last long . Dynamics will change . Good time for the young dog to learn how to behave around other dogs, especially strange dogs .
I don't believe this alpha stuff . That may have been defensive posturing , underlying insecurity nurtured by "bad experiences".

The GSD , looking at the genetic heritage , would be working with one or two other dogs - be sober and dedicated in its job without romping away with the other dogs , or going for a visit and play session with dogs they would have met along the roadside.

Breed specific characteristics do make a difference.


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## Chip18

SoCal Rebell said:


> I took my 12 week old GSD to dog park for the first time today after getting his 3rd set of shots, I know I should of waited till 15 weeks when he gets his final rabies vaccine but I knew most of the dogs and people there so I took him and his big sister Golden Retriever Dory. He was off to the races, 1st time he ran up to every dog and backed down from none, even when he got nipped at by an adult GSD for getting too close to his toy.
> 
> To me as with all my previous GSDs everything is a learning experience good or bad, my last GSD who was the total alpha male shares the same grandfather as my present Rebell and everything points to Rebell is going to be the same alpha as my previous Cutter.


Thanks for the heads up! That's why I don't go to dog parks!


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## SoCal Rebell

carmspack said:


> Again , sorry for your loss of Cutter .
> 
> new dog -- do you think this is the best way to socialize?
> 
> the dog already has an adult friendly breed dog to interact with at home. At the dog park he has already been "obnoxious" . The adult dogs, thankfully have been tolerant of the youngster -- but apparently are sending signals for the young dog to temper his wild enthusiasm , even getting nipped ! too much . "he ran up to every dog and backed down from none, even when he got nipped at by an adult GSD for getting too close '
> This tolerance won't last long . Dynamics will change . Good time for the young dog to learn how to behave around other dogs, especially strange dogs .
> I don't believe this alpha stuff . That may have been defensive posturing , underlying insecurity nurtured by "bad experiences".
> 
> The GSD , looking at the genetic heritage , would be working with one or two other dogs - be sober and dedicated in its job without romping away with the other dogs , or going for a visit and play session with dogs they would have met along the roadside.
> 
> Breed specific characteristics do make a difference.


You make some good points, Rebell shares the same character their shared grandfather as Cutter, a SchH 3 as was every one of his male pedigrees going back 5 generations. Cutter has never defensive postured or had any insecurities he just plain old would not take crap from any dog, even when a 150 # Mastiff just walked up and bit his face giving him a large gash over his eye, Cutter put him on his back and had him by the throat, not being malicious or vicious just to show him he could. I personally believe in alpha, beta and omega behaviors. Rebell was just being a puppy, not challenging anyone just playing, he's just an extreme extrovert he is not shy or cowering.


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## carmspack

the pedigree is shared by hundreds of dogs .
don't get caught with the wrong ones at the dog park ! different story , pup without defence


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## carmspack

soCal your new dog is very young . he is not backing down from the adult dogs in the dog park because he is so alpha , and so confident . 
He needs to be socialized in and around other dogs learning some dog etiquette . I think the behaviour that you see and take to be boldness is his not being able to read and understand signals that the other dogs are throwing at him. He is not getting their cut - off signalling.
They will tolerate a bratty youngster , but only so far , and not from an older dog .


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## Doc

Try taking your dog around other people that know your issues. Keep them all on a leash and let them get used to each other. This way everyone will have some control over the interaction. If your dog has aggressive behavior, put him in down position while the other dogs interact. He may learn something from observation. And leave him down until he chills.


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## onyx'girl

volcano said:


> I brought my girl to a dog park when she was young. She did get tackled and hid under me. She is submissive around dogs, she always starts the conversation with her ears back and aggressive little dogs have her backing off. Its great to me, I dont mind her being nice one bit. *I think a dog park can be a form of a breeding test, if your dog doesnt have the temperament to handle a dog park then maybe it shouldnt be bred. I went to a shutz trainer whos dog was supposedly "clear in the head" at protection. I couldnt even walk my dog past its cage without it freaking, he said that years ago a dog barked at it through a fence and it has always been reactive since. Its supposedly a dog that should be bred to. Clear in the head???*
> A bad dog park dog could harass mine and shell just come back to me, the pack leader. She doesnt need to scuffle, she is focused on me while the other dogs run around. They do start off with all of them sniffing her and she raises her leg like a male to let them get a good whiff.


I totally disagree! I sure hope people don't use that as a test for breedworthiness! 
And because a dog is reactive in a crate in a vehicle or has barrier frustration doesn't make it 'unworthy' of being bred either.


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## David Taggart

Puppies should be between puppies, and the best places to socialize them are the puppy parks and daycare centres. Dogs share similarities at early age with the wolves. She-wolf, a mother of young cubs would drive away their father from the moment of birth untill the pups reach the age of 1 and half months. After that both parents would leave them for many hours when go hunting. From that age up to 3 months the cubs would receive food through regurgitating. Only then they start receiving semi-digested food from other members of the pack, who would eagerly feed them. The wolf-mother previous litter to whom she gave birth 1 and half year ago are still unable to hunt for themselves, they may roam around the den, still, their parents wouldn't allow them close to young cubs, because they may start playing and injure them. The young cubs leave the den and join the pack at around 4-5 months, and even then, their mother would punish anyone who tries to upset them. So, the cubs do not interfere with anyone else, except their sisters/ brothers and their parents before that age. I believe, this fear in many young GSD puppies is that wolfish inheritance. It dissapears naturally at the end of innocent age if no bad experience occurs.
The owner plays a role of a foster parent for his puppy. Like his mother he should protect his puppy from elder dogs who can abuse him. In addition, your puppy can learn from that early age how mean physical power can be, and that would be his lesson for life - he might start abusing young puppies himself one day. Young dog needs to have examples of nice and friendly behaviour, but it would be extremely difficult to find a large group of such dogs. Instead, you can walk him on leash, meet some adult dogs you find safe, but not more than that. Another aspect to that - do not expect all dog owners to be decent people. Some people say that their dog would never bite a puppy, and then it happens that your puppy serves well as a toy to prey on. That's why I think that daycare centres and obedience classes are better than any parks or casual encounters.


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## carmspack

if I were to go back and review the last or two week's worth of posts addressing fear/aggression , dog aggression , out of control --- I would say that the major issue is frustration . Aggression out of frustration. Dog being denied some outlet .

this was clarified by this youtube 



 from another thread . It was offered as function prey drive.

Sure --- very high prey drive. I kept replaying this video in my mind, trying to pinpoint what was wrong ---- and then it came to me.

the very young pup in the video is an extreme depiction of low to zero frustration threshold. Obviously high drive , which can be a bonus in training and shaping drive . He sees the dowel and goes insane --- has to have it . Nothing else possible, nothing else exists. Not balanced . The prey jumps from functional to dysfunctional. 
The outlet for the frustration has to be there or else the dog becomes even more frustrated, more wound up , then you start the barking and the pulling and the lunging (we see it ) . Hold the dog back and you have aggressive directions, aggressive towards the thing which is the trigger , the thing which is stimulating the drive and frustration and redirected aggression out of frustration to the thing which is holding them back, preventing them from achieving the release of inner tension. That could be the coming up the leash, biting the leash, the quick snaps and bites on the handler . The brain is in a different zone. 

Malinois tend to be high drive , low threshold, frustrating easily, needing a quick reward .


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## carmspack

frustration quoting from the "In Car Behaviour" thread "My 10 mo used to get frustratingly excited when we got close to a place he liked, or a person he knew was outside the car, or ANY time he saw another dog. Maniac-excited. 

I made the mistake when he was younger of letting him jump out as soon as we got home (as soon as I opened his door) because he was literally tearing my car apart."

Zola another one , Titan another one -- recent threads.

Otto a thread from 2010 Leash frustration "However, when he is on leash on walks around local streets.. he exhibits strong leash frustration when he sees another dog. Because this time, he knows he will not be able to meet the other dog when he is on lead. He wants to get to the other dog SO BAD that he doesn't know what to do with himself. He will try to run towards them, growl, or bark" same Otto later in same post "We've tried redirecting his attention with treats, but when he gets into that "locked-in" mode he totally disregards it. We've tried changing directions right when we see a change in his posture, but with no success on future occurences. I've tried putting him in a sit, and a down stay until the other dog passes by, but that seems to just escalate his frustration"

another from 2008 "But, what about the dog who hasn't got fear issues, is pushy but not terribly dominant.. the dog who throws a fit because he wants to say hello to another dog, feels the lead and can't-- and reacts? Basicly, "I wanna go say Hi to that doggy.. Aaaaah! Leash won't let me?? But I wanna-- I wanna!! Aaaaaahhhh!!!" (In real-life, it sounds a lot more like "Woo-woo, woo-woo-woof!!" and is accompanied by a lunge that could forcibly unearth a small oak) Dog is leaning forward, bouncing, play-bowing, ignoring owner who's at fault here(that would be me..), and basicly trying to bounce until the other dog might come play, regardless of what the handler wants." from http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/87488-lead-frustration-reactivity.html thread.


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## carmspack

some things are as certain as death and taxes . Change is one I that I would include .

tieing unrelated topics together, unrelated at first glance, but there is a common theme .

Last week I listened to a conversation that was lead by a former CEO of a major communications firm and a Member of Provincial Parliament , John Tory , and his guest . They were talking about changes in the workplace and this current generation, generation Y ( why should we?) and how the workplace has had to adapt in many ways.

so the conversation went along these lines -- Tory (paraphrasing) so gone are the days when our generation and the one before us was in the workplace . We didn't expect quarterly performance reports to see how we were doing . We knew we were doing alright because we kept our jobs we weren't fired.

Then the guest chimed in and said the education system is rewarding for each effort and that is what the kids in business now expect.
The school system is our early socialization . You can't grade , comments instead. You can't fail. But when you get out in the big world you are graded and you can fail . 

Well isn't that the way dog training has gone? Used to be the dog did an honest days work , which had an element of self-reward . Dogs were bred and selected for work because they had , genetic obedience, directability , which is not subservience or submission as some have said before. The dogs didn't need to be lured or bribed , coaxed along by treats, or toys or food. No little rewards to guide them. 

wonder what next.


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## Bequavious

carmspack said:


> frustration quoting from the "In Car Behaviour" thread "My 10 mo used to get frustratingly excited when we got close to a place he liked, or a person he knew was outside the car, or ANY time he saw another dog. Maniac-excited.
> 
> I made the mistake when he was younger of letting him jump out as soon as we got home (as soon as I opened his door) because he was literally tearing my car apart."
> 
> Zola another one , Titan another one -- recent threads.
> 
> Otto a thread from 2010 Leash frustration "However, when he is on leash on walks around local streets.. he exhibits strong leash frustration when he sees another dog. Because this time, he knows he will not be able to meet the other dog when he is on lead. He wants to get to the other dog SO BAD that he doesn't know what to do with himself. He will try to run towards them, growl, or bark" same Otto later in same post "We've tried redirecting his attention with treats, but when he gets into that "locked-in" mode he totally disregards it. We've tried changing directions right when we see a change in his posture, but with no success on future occurences. I've tried putting him in a sit, and a down stay until the other dog passes by, but that seems to just escalate his frustration"
> 
> another from 2008 "But, what about the dog who hasn't got fear issues, is pushy but not terribly dominant.. the dog who throws a fit because he wants to say hello to another dog, feels the lead and can't-- and reacts? Basicly, "I wanna go say Hi to that doggy.. Aaaaah! Leash won't let me?? But I wanna-- I wanna!! Aaaaaahhhh!!!" (In real-life, it sounds a lot more like "Woo-woo, woo-woo-woof!!" and is accompanied by a lunge that could forcibly unearth a small oak) Dog is leaning forward, bouncing, play-bowing, ignoring owner who's at fault here(that would be me..), and basicly trying to bounce until the other dog might come play, regardless of what the handler wants." from http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/87488-lead-frustration-reactivity.html thread.


So what do you suggest for these people? Perhaps a dog is genetically predisposed to low frustration tolerance or perhaps it has been developed in him (whether purposefully or not), but do you think there are ways to increase that tolerance?


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## David Winners

Carmen, you bring up an interesting debate in training versus genetics with this conversation.

Yesterday, a dog that didn't have the genetics that directed the dog towards a partnership with the handler would not be trained for work. It would not make it through the training with the drive and confidence left to do the work, or it would be out of control. Back in the 70's, when Koehler methods were popular, a dog with over the top prey drive was considered a dog that needed to be handled very sternly. The trainer would "get right on top" of that dog from the start because if not, he was going to be a mess.

Trainers have figured out how to work with these dogs and utilize their prey drive without diminishing the confidence of the dog. The question is, is that a good thing or bad? Modern training allows an unbalanced dog to perform well on the field. I think many dogs that are successful in sport today are not suitable for street work, and would not have been successful with the training of yesterday. They would fight the handler out of frustration until the handler won, or the dog was dismissed for aggression.

This leads to the discussion of which is better? Genetics that drive the dog to be naturally obedient with balanced drives for work, or prey drive strong enough to motivate the dog to do whatever is required to reach the reward. Both dogs can learn the behaviors necessary to do the work. I see the difference in these dogs in daily living and relationship, and in real world operations that don't consist of a routine that leads the prey driven dog to it's anticipated reward. High In Trial does not translate to best working dog IMHO.

I believe as a trainer it is important to understand both dogs and how to motivate them. I also believe that modern training will not have a grossly negative effect on the genetically obedient dog, where compulsive training will have negative effects on the highly prey driven dog. In other words, taking a genetically obedient dog through training that is successful with prey driven dogs is not a bad thing. It will still learn the communication necessary to understand commands and behavior shaping, it will understand that there are consequences for failing to comply with commands, and it will still have a strong bond with the handler.

The detriment I see in modern training, and that is definitely arguable, is that it allows unbalanced dogs to perform well. If one is able to see through the training by observing the dog with it's handler away from the field, then the detriment is negated. The downside is that these prey driven dogs are being bred for competition and they are scoring well, thus driving the market for these dogs. This is making it harder to find balanced dogs.


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## RocketDog

David, your posts are so intelligently written and clearly communicated. I love reading what you have to say. This has been a very interesting thread.


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## carmspack

continuing with some hopefully thought provoking ideas , David said "Yesterday, a dog that didn't have the genetics that directed the dog towards a partnership with the handler would not be trained for work"

I believe that to be correct. It is how it stands today with those needing a dog for work . The old shepherds would test the dog for a genetic attraction to sheep (which is not chasing in prey) and a genetic attraction to the handler/man/owner/trainer, and not a bribe or toy -- This was necessary as the dog took a read on the person , the empathy , effort to work in co-ordination of completing a task .
Call it directability , the dog able to take direction with willingness . 
Do not confuse this with being a submissive or dependant dog. That's the thing which is so important . There is no lack of self confidence . Direction is taken with energy and spirit . There is no fear of wrong decisions as the dog is allowed to be flexible in how he chooses to best complete the task (this thought will come in later in the Genius of Dogs ) . The interest in the handler , and vice versa , builds a mutual trust . Nothing is done without the best interest of the partnership. Key word , willing. Not bribed, coaxed, nor forced . There is a thread "genetic obedience" which covers a great deal of this . http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/161374-genetic-obedience-30.html
There is a difference in training the dog and training the behaviour.
When the dog is trained the dog is free to make decisions , be flexible, take ownership of solving the problem . 

David again "back in the 70's when Koehler methods were popular, a dog with over the top prey drive was considered a dog that needed to be handled very sternly. The trainer would "get right on top" of that dog from the start because if not, he was going to be a mess."
AND 
"Trainers have figured out how to work with these dogs and utilize their prey drive without diminishing the confidence of the dog. "

I think Helmut Raiser gave a great deal of thought to this . He perfected using prey to shape other behaviours . Here is a discussion on that very topic 
Helmut Raiser interview; what do we want GSD versus Malinois drives/nerves - Page 1

He knew . He knew fight drive was giving way --- !

Totally agree, this is pretty much my mantra , David said "Genetics that drive the dog to be naturally obedient with balanced drives for work, or prey drive strong enough to motivate the dog to do whatever is required to reach the reward. Both dogs can learn the behaviors necessary to do the work. I see the difference in these dogs in daily living and relationship, and in real world operations that don't consist of a routine that leads the prey driven dog to it's anticipated reward. High In Trial does not translate to best working dog IMHO."

Just this morning I was on the phone with someone asking about a breeding that might take place later in the year. Before we got too far in to the discussion , pretty much opening statement I said a breeding must always be for the balanced dog . A GSD , individual and breed , should be able to do it all . Be a working service dog , and the same individual a companion dog . This is a versatile , utility breed. Versatility was always the forte . Then as we continued in the conversation it was as if a light went on --- recalling Nate Harves .

I was speaking to this person as a breeder . The responsibilities are greater and must consider this for the health and welfare of the breed.
The GSD , with correct selection can be located for any number of jobs. That dog may be especially talented in one field of work , not so much for another .
Cherry picking on comments Nate Harves made for Schutzhund USA 2009 (all credit to Harves) 
"there are many "homes" for the GSD; find the dog that best suits the need . This thinking, though is not breed preservation, it is breed placement. To confuse them for breeding working dogs is incorrect"

more later ...


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## carmspack

here is the Nate Harves article in full - enjoy Sportwaffen K9


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## carmspack

Agree "The detriment I see in modern training, and that is definitely arguable, is that it allows unbalanced dogs to perform well. If one is able to see through the training by observing the dog with it's handler away from the field, then the detriment is negated. The downside is that these prey driven dogs are being bred for competition and they are scoring well, thus driving the market for these dogs. This is making it harder to find balanced dogs. "


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## carmspack

taking it back to early socialization -- 
Bequavious asked "So what do you suggest for these people? Perhaps a dog is genetically predisposed to low frustration tolerance or perhaps it has been developed in him (whether purposefully or not), but do you think there are ways to increase that tolerance" 

The answer has to start with the breeding , the genetics, the balance of the dogs drives and temperament . Then how those assests or deficits are manipulated or promoted.
A "general" list in hand in how to socialize does not take in to regard that there are breed specific characters , which if the dog is bred correctly have to be in place. Even in the Fuller and Scott "Dog Behaviour - The Genetic Basis" there is recognition that the "herding" breeds are different , more sensitive . 

There is a misinterpretation on the social exposure to people and dogs . No contact need be made . The young dog is given exposure and the handler provides the model for behaviour. Nothing to see here , carry on , you keep on walking. 
In a breed where there is supposed to be stranger aloofness, neutrality , I think it is wrong to have a great deal , especially of over the top gooey , attention and interaction with admiring strangers.
You put them in stress , they get an adrenaline rush, they want the adrenaline rush ?? like young males that jump off cliffs or bungee jump, or day traders that thrive on risk , or dogs that are ball junkies.
Then they crave, they are denied , then you have frustration , which they fight against and so on it goes. 
Selective , managed meetings, fine , brief and then on you go .

You ask for the behaviour you want right from the beginning.

Looking at ancient cultures , even feral dogs , you don't see this need for socializing . Don't take me wrongly , socializing is very important , but not in the manner that we have been discussing. 

Plus breeding is different, dogs are compartmentalised with key features of temperament neglected , discounted or sorely out of balance. There is a big part of the problem.


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## David Winners

Doc said:


> Try taking your dog around other people that know your issues. Keep them all on a leash and let them get used to each other. This way everyone will have some control over the interaction. If your dog has aggressive behavior, put him in down position while the other dogs interact. He may learn something from observation. And leave him down until he chills.


I think this is the correct approach. Dogs learn well through observation, of humans to a certain extent, but more so of other dogs. That is one reason dogs are encouraged to watch while on the training field. It is also why in hunting dogs, pups are often paired with experienced adult dogs on the hunt.


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## carmspack

hunting dogs tend not to have protective or territorial drives . 
Hounds and beagles , specialized basset fauve de Bretagne (spent two years studying them) run in packs , it is built into the genes .
Field dogs , labs and retrievers , when correct don't go around alerting on hunters in blinds , which a GSD would , and they don't duke it out if they run across another dog doing a retrieve . Different basic natures.

As to the putting the aggressive dog into a down position , I think is going to be difficult , and build frustration . The handlers have a hard enough time dragging their dog away from the stimulus and can't even make the dog sit, never mind in the down.

I think they have to find out at what distance the stimulus does not trigger the reaction , and work on getting control and providing a substitute rewarding behaviour which hopefully , eventually will be powerful enough to override .

a shepherd will have his young dog by his side , under control , in apprenticeship , while his accomplished dogs work. Every once in a while in some near and simple task he will be let go to gain experience. This is a long process .


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## David Winners

carmspack said:


> Looking at ancient cultures , even feral dogs , you don't see this need for socializing . Don't take me wrongly , socializing is very important , but not in the manner that we have been discussing.


In my time spent in rather "ancient" cultures, the way dogs are treated is vastly different than in the pet culture of the western world. It is a myth that people of the middle east do not like dogs. Many have them as pets, and the herding and nomadic tribes utilize dogs for work and companionship. In Korea, there are many dogs that live in the city and move freely along the streets with their owners. You see litters of puppies hanging out in front of stores, or in some alley. 

These dogs are raised as part of life. They are not fawned over by every passer by. Most people notice them little more than they would a discarded food wrapper or group of children playing a game of stones. The dogs reciprocate this "normalcy" of life, in that they don't seek attention from every passer by either. Unless they are hungry and you are offering food, they don't even respond when enticed to interact.

The herding dogs will protect their flock and family with their lives. They put on a big display if you come too near, and will attempt to drive you off if necessary. If you turn to leave, they fall back into normal life, in control of themselves and the situation with no guidance from their family. Many times you will see a very young child, 8-10 years old, by themselves in the mountains with the flock, accompanied only by a pair of dogs to watch over them. Vegetation is so sparse that the flock must continually move to feed itself. The child knows the route of movement to take that will bring the flock through the most fertile areas and back to the village in a few days. The dogs maintain flock integrity and provide warning and protection to the flock and the shepherd alike.

These same dogs, who will drive you off if they encounter you in the mountains, reside calmly in the village when they are home. They are not contained and know the rules of living with people and other animals. They are calm and obedient to their owners, but in a general way. They understand normalcy and fit in to life because they are a part of real life from the time they are born, not some orchestrated and condensed socialization plan that overstimulates them.

In places where dogs are not a big deal, are not fawned over and are not put under pressure to be something unnatural to their genetic temperament, dogs successfully integrate into daily life without pause. They learn through observation and regular routine what is expected of them and how to behave. Their job is much like that of the people who choose to have them as partners. They fill the voids in their group and strive to help where they are asked. They will chase down a chicken for the evening meal, escort a toddler to the river to fetch water, fight off a pack of coyotes and bark when an unfamiliar face shows up on the horizon. No training DVDs required.

I think we trainers could benefit from being put in a down stay and being forced to observe dogs behaving well until we are calm


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## David Winners

carmspack said:


> As to the putting the aggressive dog into a down position , I think is going to be difficult , and build frustration . The handlers have a hard enough time dragging their dog away from the stimulus and can't even make the dog sit, never mind in the down.
> 
> I think they have to find out at what distance the stimulus does not trigger the reaction , and work on getting control and providing a substitute rewarding behaviour which hopefully , eventually will be powerful enough to override .


I agree that working the dog outside it's threshold is necessary. Just achieving the down won't do anything by an of itself. The dog must be calm in order to observe and practice good behavior.

My reference to hunting dogs was to illustrate how dogs learn through observation, not to compare the temperaments and behaviors of the different types of breeds.


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## carmspack

this is the crux of the matter "They understand normalcy and fit in to life because they are a part of real life from the time they are born, not some orchestrated and condensed socialization plan that overstimulates them."

there is so much urgency in out socialization -- not even in touch with the dog anymore .

I was looking at pre-Columbian North American Indian life. The role of the dog --- . And that is a totally different area of interest for those that think that "wolf" was still a recent or even relatively recent part of the dog before that time. DNA tested , and carbon dated. Dog and the skeletal remains of a man . The remains were over 10,000 years old and mitochondria showed a connection to old world European roots , not Asians as was previously thought (although this is still possible and you have regional populations and mixing) . Decorative pendants were found with the remains . Similar pendants were found in sites in Swabian Germany . Interestingly dog bones found near the site or other sites have been tested and there is DNA found in European land race breeds -- . Once my friend who is a senior research geneticist is finished his great work , we will start examining DNA from old North American Indian , Northern Canadian native dogs and an African Village dog - GSD of course as a comparison . 
However, I was interested in their interactions -- the dogs were "natural" . There is a very good discussion in this thread with some interesting posts http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/277034-what-natural-dog-3.html


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## David Winners

This exactly. Unforced symbiosis .



> that is a pretty good picture of the symbiotic relationship early man and early dog must have had.


From the what is a "natural" dog thread.


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## Bequavious

carmspack said:


> However, I was interested in their interactions -- the dogs were "natural" . There is a very good discussion in this thread with some interesting posts http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/277034-what-natural-dog-3.html


I recently checked out How the Dog became the Dog from the library and was intrigued by this same idea. History is not one of my main interests so I haven't read from the variety of authors that would give me more confidence, but Mark Derr makes a strong case for the dog precursor as a willing participant in human (well human precursors') hunts and migrations. "Dogs" who got along better with "people" and "people" who got along better with "dogs" benefited from their combined hunts and protection.

Of course that lifestyle is nigh impossible in modern American society and presumably much of the urbanized world. People today want very different things from their dogs and have numerous restrictions on what they're even allowed to do. Most people can't take their dog with them throughout their day because most places don't allow dogs. Neither can they leave them loose because there are leash laws, animal control, and traffic.

In some sense it almost feels as though society has outstripped genetics. People are still drawn to dogs, though a minority of pet owners really provides enough exercise and mental stimulation for their dogs. In the same way people are still drawn to gardening, hiking, hunting, and a slower pace, despite increasing demands for a faster workflow and more multitasking.

It would be great to socialize our pups as a natural part of the day, but how many people see much more than the inside of their office and their home on the average workday? Or when they do go out, is it to dog friendly places? Personally I feel like the pressures to intentionally socialize my pup brought about behavior changes that were as beneficial to me as they were to her. Yes, there was more gushing than was probably ideal, but we spent the afternoon in the park just hanging out. We went to new places; we tried new things, and none of it involved a computer or a tv.

I guess with all my rambling I just mean to say that while the more "primitive" methods of socialization may result in better dogs, they are impossible to replicate in modern society and the more "intentional" method urbanites have to employ may result in better people.


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## carmspack

when you said this "In some sense it almost feels as though society has outstripped genetics." I thought of the test pilot who pushed the envelope to test the limits of the design . 
Life has always been one of change and dogs have adopted right along side with us .


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## Saphire




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## carmspack

oh, surprise, thanks Saphire for sending the picture . Sooner of later I'll figure it out .

Anyway I thought I would send this along . The adult dog is Carmspack Kameshia a female retired from work , who is approaching her 12th year . She and Sabrina who is on Gus's pedigree are sisters.
The pup is a 5 week old female from a repeat of the Nicholas litter .

The adult dog is very well socialized . She regards other dogs "as furniture" , the terminology that David Winners used . Typical of the outcome for dogs that I have raised. You can see many similar examples including young Nicholas with attention on handler , because he chooses to , not by bribe or force , while big adult male Badger is playing fetch and other dogs running around . Again in the Genetic obedience thread.

This adult female Kameshia , stands still , presents her side which reduces threat to the pup, is neutral . She allows pup to investigate. Pup is called , returns to handler , and big black Kameshia trots away.

Kameshia is neutral , no arousal or posturing . Pup shows confident interest -- nothing forced .


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## carmspack

*rethinking early popular socialization*



Saphire said:


>


to keep track of information as thread continues

adult black female is Carmspack Kameshia retired working dog entering her 12 year shortly

sable pup is a 5 week old repeat on "Nicholas" pedigree 
temporary (papered name) is Amelia after Earhart


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## carmspack

he came into the world ..... and then the world came at him .

that is a little line that I used with my kids at bedtime . Around that thought they had to construct a story .

It is true though . The world pretty much does come AT you .
So , next, time that is how we start the next post.


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## carmspack

re http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/425474-socializing-checklist.html


Quote:

Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_no thank you .

not necessary .

possibly counter productive .

too mechanical , pre-meditated .

too rushed -- all this by 14 weeks???

that does not represent your normal life , or anyone's normal life.

a sound dog won't need this .

a weak dog , or a dog going through a fear period will be set back.

by this age the new owner would barely have taken the pup and have him join his household.

job one is to allow the dog to adjust to "you" , his new home, new routine, new food , and be without his littermates .

those that know me are probably laughing right now because they know lists chafe me .

you have to do things with feeling and organically

edit -- I mean NO thank you_

Haha....thank you....I was wanting feedback and opinions on this. I got my pup around 10 weeks old....I take him a lot of places....But all of this wasn't possible in my crazy busy household....I learn daily from this forum

xxxxxxxxx this is one of the crazy lists I was talking about !


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## Jmoore728

carmspack said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carmspack*
> _no thank you .
> 
> not necessary .
> 
> possibly counter productive .
> 
> too mechanical , pre-meditated .
> 
> too rushed -- all this by 14 weeks???
> 
> that does not represent your normal life , or anyone's normal life.
> 
> a sound dog won't need this .
> 
> a weak dog , or a dog going through a fear period will be set back.
> 
> by this age the new owner would barely have taken the pup and have him join his household.
> 
> job one is to allow the dog to adjust to "you" , his new home, new routine, new food , and be without his littermates .
> 
> those that know me are probably laughing right now because they know lists chafe me .
> 
> you have to do things with feeling and organically
> 
> edit -- I mean NO thank you_
> 
> Haha....thank you....I was wanting feedback and opinions on this. I got my pup around 10 weeks old....I take him a lot of places....But all of this wasn't possible in my crazy busy household....I learn daily from this forum
> 
> xxxxxxxxx this is one of the crazy lists I was talking about !


You know you love that list!!!


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## selzer

That is about as crazy as it comes. 

The last time I was at a police station was for a class field trip in the sixth grade. Why in the world would I take my dog to a police station or fire station. I've never been to a fire station, but I have a puppy, so I had better head right on over and socialize my puppy to the people and equipment that certainly have better things to worry about me and my dog. 

People need to RELAX. If you are all tensed up about socializing it will be counter productive. If you are relaxed, and employ a little common sense, you can socialize your puppy without traumatizing it. I do not see any reason to take a puppy anywhere that I do not normally take dogs. Because I might take a dog to the park with the girls, I will probably take the puppy to the park once or twice. Because I will have the dog to the vet at some point, I will take the pup to the vet. 

It doesn't have to be rocket science.


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## Shaolin

selzer said:


> That is about as crazy as it comes.
> 
> The last time I was at a police station was for a class field trip in the sixth grade. Why in the world would I take my dog to a police station or fire station. I've never been to a fire station, but I have a puppy, so I had better head right on over and socialize my puppy to the people and equipment that certainly have better things to worry about me and my dog.
> 
> People need to RELAX. If you are all tensed up about socializing it will be counter productive. If you are relaxed, and employ a little common sense, you can socialize your puppy without traumatizing it. I do not see any reason to take a puppy anywhere that I do not normally take dogs. Because I might take a dog to the park with the girls, I will probably take the puppy to the park once or twice. Because I will have the dog to the vet at some point, I will take the pup to the vet.
> 
> It doesn't have to be rocket science.


I don't want to sound critical or like a butthead, but I think more people should take their dogs around fire departments, especially with the Fire Fighters in their gear

My dog has a rock solid temperament and doesn't shy away from anything, but the first day I came home in FF gear, he was barking his head off and was staying just out of arms reach. Even his best buddy got the "silent treatment". We also see lots of dogs in fires running away from us; we're loud, clunky, and smell horrible. I'm sure I don't even smell like a person and I don't look like one. After watching several dogs run and hide while we were trying to perform a rescue drove the point home and since then, everyone gets to spend some quality time at the FD.

I feel early socialization to things that can be an extreme stressor to the dog is important, so while I forgo dog parks in lieu of controlled interactions, taking the dogs to the FD or EMS department so they can see/smell everything and get a good first contact with them is important to me.

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## kjdreyer

Shaolin said:


> My dog has a rock solid temperament and doesn't shy away from anything, but the first day I came home in FF gear, he was barking his head off and was staying just out of arms reach. Even his best buddy got the "silent treatment". We also see lots of dogs in fires running away from us; we're loud, clunky, and smell horrible. I'm sure I don't even smell like a person and I don't look like one. After watching several dogs run and hide while we were trying to perform a rescue drove the point home and since then, everyone gets to spend some quality time at the FD.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Glad I happened to read this, thank you for the advice. That would be too terrible if a dog was so frightened that it couldn't be rescued.


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## Diesel7602

carmspack said:


> take note of the word "popular"
> 
> How many dogs have been damaged by early socialization .
> If the forum is a fair , random, sampling , I would say quite a few.
> 
> so let that be the opening salvo to open the discussion .


My puppy just started puppy classes and one of his home work is to met at least 100 people. All animals big and small. Well see how things go. So far he loves people so it's not like we have to force him. When he is out in public, he wants every one to pet him. 

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## Airman1stclass

So should I not let people pet and play with my pup. In starting puppy kindergarten Wednesday and the class is for an hour and the first 20 mins we just let the puppies and people play with one another. Should I pass on this training school. Its a 7 week class


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## DutchKarin

Airman,

I am not a fan of the free puppy play. My dutch shepherd was the biggest, most powerful and maniacal puppy. Free play was a disaster, more because everyone else was very uncomfortable with how hard Tygo played. I dropped out of puppy kindergarten when everyone else started grabbing my dog to get him off of theirs and the instructor did nothing. Bad experience for me and not healthy for Tygo.


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## shepherdmom

I think it depends on the dog. If your dog is enjoying it let him play. If he is scared or unhappy get him the heck out of there. My puppy is socialized fine with other dogs, he understands doggie language. It's humans that scare him so I'm trying to socialize him with only one or two people at a time.


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## Diesel7602

Airman1stclass said:


> So should I not let people pet and play with my pup. In starting puppy kindergarten Wednesday and the class is for an hour and the first 20 mins we just let the puppies and people play with one another. Should I pass on this training school. Its a 7 week class


http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization1-25-13.pdf read this. I think it is important for the early socialization.

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## Chip18

kjdreyer said:


> Glad I happened to read this, thank you for the advice. That would be too terrible if a dog was so frightened that it couldn't be rescued.


My dog looks to me. He wasn't "socialized" to be around Backhoes but had no problem walking by one in operation on a walk in the city. Uh, oh yeah and he's never been in a city before either!


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## Chip18

Diesel7602 said:


> http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization1-25-13.pdf read this. I think it is important for the early socialization.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Read this, it's what I did with my "people aggressive" GSD and he has no issues! And it's how I train all my future dogs.
http://leerburg.com/whopetspuppy.htm


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## Diesel7602

Chip18 said:


> Read this, it's what I did with my "people aggressive" GSD and he has no issues! And it's how I train all my future dogs.
> http://leerburg.com/whopetspuppy.htm


Thanks for the post. I read it. It's good to see both points of view. Me personally, want a well manor people dog, but protect us if needed.=)

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## carmspack

Chip18 said:


> My dog looks to me. He wasn't "socialized" to be around Backhoes but had no problem walking by one in operation on a walk in the city. Uh, oh yeah and he's never been in a city before either!


 
and that is exactly what I meant when I said 
"he came into the world ..... and then the world came at him ."
you simply can not plan for everything that you may encounter . Life is full of surprises . 

I do like the format set out by Leerburg . 

The most important part of socialization is for the dog to fully understand where and what and to whom he belongs. Especially true for GSD which are "loyal" . They were not, are not , meant to be dogs that have their heart on their sleeves . They are to be indifferent to strangers. Not hostile , not seeking friendship. 

Don't expect to bring home the shy and retiring animal and take him out to see the world , meet those "100 people" , and turn into a robust outgoing dog. 

What you will be able to see is the dogs initial response and time required , if any, for recovery.
Seeing strapping first responders at the fire hall and being "okay" does not in any way indicate that the dog will be "okay" in an emergency with chaos and highly charged emotional situations. 
A GSD should be able to adapt and cope with rapidly changing situations . That has to be a genetic consideration.


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## carmspack

life coming at you --

while taking a walk through a downtown residential area , head toward the main street (Queen just east of Broadview) and "step into" a film crew taping an elephant walking along ? could never have planned for this .

another totally unexpected situation , take a bike path expecting peace and quiet and then find out that there is a civil war re-enactment on the field above you ?


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## Doc

carmspack said:


> life coming at you --
> 
> while taking a walk through a downtown residential area , head toward the main street (Queen just east of Broadview) and "step into" a film crew taping an elephant walking along ? could never have planned for this .
> 
> another totally unexpected situation , take a bike path expecting peace and quiet and then find out that there is a civil war re-enactment on the field above you ?


If come across Gen. Robert E Lee send him home! :


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## carmspack

this little female pup has arrived in Ontario.
She crossed the continent from Oregon to Toronto by air , was picked up and had a 3 hour car ride to the Kawarthas , there she had another leg to her journey , and that was to cross the frozen ice of Lake Joe , pitch dark of night tucked into a a zipped back pack worn on the front , zooming home on a skidoo .

I got the call moments ago. This pup , as expected is absolutely fearless. She entered the new home at 4:45 a.m. found some threads on the carpet and started pulling on them --- found the wrought iron fire poker , knocked it over and then proceeded to pick it up and parade around. She never skipped a beat - She "owned" the house the moment she walked in. So now that the time difference is catching up with the pup and she is resting , so is her new owner.

I'll see them tomorrow for some "tests" in the barn.

_ [URL="http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.germanshepherds.com%2Fforum%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D400690%26amp%3Bpage%3D18&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv652%2Fccgood380%2FCarmspack%2FGirly%2520006_zpsekkdlwyv.jpg"]Report this image[/URL]_

to keep track of information as thread continues

adult black female is Carmspack Kameshia retired working dog entering her 12 year shortly

sable pup is a 5 week old repeat on "Nicholas" pedigree 
temporary (papered name) is Amelia after Earhart 
__________________
Carmen

**********

_*Carmspack*_


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## carmspack

I guess I am pinning this thread "puppy got bit by a bigger GSD" to the early socialization because there are so many points useful to discussion in socializing your pup to dog . http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/440073-puppy-got-bit-bigger-gsd-2.html

In this case both young dogs were totally over excited . The other dog owner's description was "super friendly" which may be a total misread on seemingly harmless behaviour from his viewpoint , but totally , blatantly , different when perceived from the two dogs' perception . 
First impressions. Each dog took a read on the other . Neither in a calm state - two over excited pups . Neither old enough to have established trust from the respective owner, neither one old enough to have controllability so that the situation could be controlled, before it got out of hand. Both dogs were indifferent to the owners. Simple youthful rambunctiousness propelled them into a situation where the youngest was cowed , the older dog emboldened , excited by prey squeals bites the young one more . The situation was ripe for social conflict . 
Once separated both had their hair up and still in a state of confused fear (aggressive) arousal.

When you introduce a young dog to another only do so if you know the other dog , and the other dog is not indifferent to the owner , and be able to control your young one so that it is not disrespectful to the older dog - who will give a deserved correction .

Read an interview of Martina Urich , handler of Decster von Barbatus , 9th place Baunatal BSP trials, in Das Schaferhund Magazin. 
When asked how Decster was socialized the answer was that there was no particular format , but many things are learned by the young whelp just by living a normal life (Viele Dinge lernt ein Welpe bei mir schon im, normalen Leben) . A little food motivation work, a little booty drive with the tugs . Time goes quickly . 
The dog was introduced to working around other dogs around 10 to 12 months and made the first schutzhund club at 12 months.


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## carmspack

when I said first impressions, I didn't mean mine or ours, but the first impression that the dogs' had of each other.
In this case neither dog was experienced enough nor mature enough to have any SELF-control, and at the same time did not have outside control by the owners. 
They read each other by body postures, vocalization and even scent . 
The "other" dog may have been attending this park with its owners for a frequent period and in its mind this was his park . Here comes a stranger (the younger pup) , who is not calm , may be a problem , in any case coming into his territory. 
Quick . Do something . Quick , and so without the time necessary to do the ritualized meet and greet , one dog discovered the younger to be afraid and vulnerable , just as he himself was, took advantage and cowed the other into submission -- some control.


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## NancyJ

David suggested I put a link to this post here

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/440713-nice-behavior-beau-other-dog.html

Appropriate behavior from a dog with ZERO puppy playtime after leaving the pack. All interactions were either with known stable adult dogs and after he was a few months old, the goal was to ignore other dogs. 

Today we had a good offlead experience with my dog and a teammate's dog on her farm. The ability to "be a dog" was not impaired by not having puppy play time. They knew how to interact, then chill out together when they were a panting heap. Their past exposure to each other was team training - mainly doing obedience near each other.


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## David Winners

Thanks Nancy. I think your experience fits in perfectly with the content of the thread. 

It will be nice to have everything readily available when referencing the thread later.

David Winners


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## nezzz

So far, having my pup for 4 weeks now. I've noticed her become more confident with other dogs. When I took her to the dog park for the first time, she was a little timid and shy around larger dogs and tended to avoid interacting with them. But as she's grown larger she has become more confident and would play with the other adult dogs and puppies. The breeder told me they were socialised before I got her and all I needed to do was continue letting her play with other dogs and she should be fine 

Same happened with my other previous GSDs


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## carmspack

but time interacting with other dogs should be brief and ideally with meeting up with the same group.
You say you have had the dog for 4 weeks, so guessing your dog is less than 16 weeks - that is still young and impressionable . 
Dog parks are notorious for problems .

When your dog is so immersed in other dogs you tend to loose out at being interesting . The dog will loose some of the skills it needs to understand you as it will be with a group that already has a two way line of communication.


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## carmspack

for reference "

Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_this wasn't the case in this class , but found this interesting Why Does My Herding Dog Seem to Hate Labs?

maybe the owner of the retriever had some bad experience with a GSD previously so was being the "helicopter parent" ._

Thanks for posting this, I haven't read this before, explains everything perfectly and is very easy to comprehend









Should be a sticky for explaining why GSDs behave the way they do especially in dog parks. 
__________________
_
_


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## carmspack

Bailiff reinforces exactly what I have been saying !!!
just read pages 3 and 4 of this http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/564881-max-movie-mals-everywhere-3.html

I said it here http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/564353-eat-bite-whine-repeat.html -- keep on going and you'll need the book Fired Up , Frantic and Freaked Out 

more from Bailiff "

Doesn't matter what their day was like.

They are conditioned to relax in the house. I don't allow them to play in the house or do anything high intensity in the house outside of something that has a cue to start and finish.

When we go outside or in the training room they go nuts. When they are in working mode they are wired. In the house or crate it is chill time.

People always go assuming a tired dog is a good dog. No. A tired dog is a tired dog. If you went to a maximum security prison and saw a serial killer who had just gotten done lifting weights all day because that is all he had to do, and he was asleep in his cell would you go and say oh what a good man? No. He is still a psycho killer he is just asleep. Same with dogs.

People who don't understand dogs and training assume keeping them calm is about tiring them out and it isn't the case. Keeping them calm is about managing and training their mental and emotional states. "


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## maxtmill

Courtney said:


> Luckily for us what people told me socialization was supposed to look like right off the bat made me uneasy. It seemed so forced-fake. I'm not a outgoing person with a ton of friends always on the go. My social circle is small. My husband and I private. The idea of having to meet random strangers all the time, stopping for petting zoo type of encounters with people, puppy play dates...yuck.
> 
> I liked the idea of the GSD personality. Aloof...somewhat of a one person dog. Perfect for my personality. We will be great partners.
> 
> I did expose and socialize but it was done my way, it was casual & part of my life already. He was my tag-a-long for any errand. We explored together. Love getting him outside to climb, jump, crawl low, balance, etc. My husband would build obstacle courses for him in the yard with whatever was laying around, so much fun. Those moments when he wasn't sure...encouraging him, building that confidence. You are a rock star puppy
> 
> I took him to the gun range several times...my husband was already there. He sat and watched, interested.
> 
> Sure he met strangers & children along the way. He learned to ignore other dogs in class - gets to romp around sometimes with my neighbors awesome dog.
> 
> We are active and love to be outdoors hiking & camping. He runs with my husband.
> 
> But sometimes I just want to stay home with my sweats on and have a down day to watch movies under the blanket all day, do nothing. It was important that I had a dog that would accept down time and not need to be entertained and on the go all the time. I have that with Rusty and I think it's because I just kept it simple with 'raising' him...if you will.


Hello! I know this is an old thread, but SO informative. I am much like you - I am somewhat of an introvert, and enjoy my privacy.When I go out with my current dog (not a GSD), he gets a lot of attention due to the rarity of his breed where I live, plus his good looks. But I make him sit to get petted briefly. I don't allow anyone to fall all over him. My last shepherd would just sit and ignore my neighbors when I would encounter them on a walk, and they didn't try to pet her. When I get my next GSD pup, that is what I will prefer-quiet acceptance and basically ignore other people. I love a "one person dog". All that lovey-dovey socialization is not my cup of tea.


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## maxtmill

David Winners said:


> In my time spent in rather "ancient" cultures, the way dogs are treated is vastly different than in the pet culture of the western world. It is a myth that people of the middle east do not like dogs. Many have them as pets, and the herding and nomadic tribes utilize dogs for work and companionship. In Korea, there are many dogs that live in the city and move freely along the streets with their owners. You see litters of puppies hanging out in front of stores, or in some alley.
> 
> These dogs are raised as part of life. They are not fawned over by every passer by. Most people notice them little more than they would a discarded food wrapper or group of children playing a game of stones. The dogs reciprocate this "normalcy" of life, in that they don't seek attention from every passer by either. Unless they are hungry and you are offering food, they don't even respond when enticed to interact.
> 
> The herding dogs will protect their flock and family with their lives. They put on a big display if you come too near, and will attempt to drive you off if necessary. If you turn to leave, they fall back into normal life, in control of themselves and the situation with no guidance from their family. Many times you will see a very young child, 8-10 years old, by themselves in the mountains with the flock, accompanied only by a pair of dogs to watch over them. Vegetation is so sparse that the flock must continually move to feed itself. The child knows the route of movement to take that will bring the flock through the most fertile areas and back to the village in a few days. The dogs maintain flock integrity and provide warning and protection to the flock and the shepherd alike.
> 
> These same dogs, who will drive you off if they encounter you in the mountains, reside calmly in the village when they are home. They are not contained and know the rules of living with people and other animals. They are calm and obedient to their owners, but in a general way. They understand normalcy and fit in to life because they are a part of real life from the time they are born, not some orchestrated and condensed socialization plan that overstimulates them.
> 
> In places where dogs are not a big deal, are not fawned over and are not put under pressure to be something unnatural to their genetic temperament, dogs successfully integrate into daily life without pause. They learn through observation and regular routine what is expected of them and how to behave. Their job is much like that of the people who choose to have them as partners. They fill the voids in their group and strive to help where they are asked. They will chase down a chicken for the evening meal, escort a toddler to the river to fetch water, fight off a pack of coyotes and bark when an unfamiliar face shows up on the horizon. No training DVDs required.
> 
> I think we trainers could benefit from being put in a down stay and being forced to observe dogs behaving well until we are calm


I currently live in Costa Rica, where there are many many street dogs; they trot around downtown, appear to know how to cross the streets without getting run over, and never make a nuisance of themselves. Most of the dogs in the main part of downtown are fed scaps by people, and don't appear starving (unlike all the strays in the country!). Many of the locals have pet dogs who follow them around town unleashed, but they follow their folks and never run off. The locals are not known as being dog lovers, but their dogs are very well behaved! It is somewhat of a mystery to me!


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## maxtmill

Chip18 said:


> Rocky my GSD taught me the value of ignore and move on. The breed of dog has a bearing on the issue also. My BullMastiff/Pit mix and my Boxer loved, people they learned to ignore other dogs,Vet visits and dog parades were not an issue for them.
> 
> Everyone one wanted to see Struddell White Boxer and she loved the attention and Pitt people loved Gunther ,neither of them had an issue with strangers it was just there nature. So they were free to engage if people "chose" to do so
> 
> Rocky Blk GSD...not so much! I got him as a 7 month old as a rescue and I would have though he would have been used to strangers?? We had guest over for the first time and he growled at them???
> 
> Got him away from company, got a muzzle and instituted "move on and ignore" step in front and a "no you can't pet my dog policy" no forced intros whatsoever, No people meeting no doggie intro, dogs and people became furniture to him.
> 
> After a few weeks dropped the use of the muzzle, when I knew how to "read "him. We went to vaccine day (without the muzzle) all kinds of howling, barking, vet biting, little dog craziness. Kept Rocky by my side on a loose leash, He stood calmly by my side observing the goings on without interest. His turn comes and again no issues, no muzzle and no problems,:laugh:
> 
> He still doesn't welcome company with open "paws" but he's no longer a threat to guest. Had I insisted on him being the happy go lucky "never met a stranger I did not like" I love everybody kind of dog my other dogs were, I don't know what I would have today?
> 
> But today he's a confident, self assured, safe in public example of a well behaved GSD! That's all I wanted from him and it's what he delivered once, I understood what his limits were and made allowances for his needs !


Hi Chip! Yes, I agree that breed means alot. Everyone loved our Boxers, and they absolutely loved everyone! I don't expect or want that from my GSD. I want him to acknowledge then ignore people, and I don't want people falling all over him/her.


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## Way Too Quiet

I have to say that I was very concerned about our GSD's temperment after bringing him home at 8 wks. He seemed too shy and a bit nervy. Bringing him out to a park seemed too much for him and he would mostly bark and acted like a wild animal in public. And he had had come from a great breeder who exposed the litter to noises and people/kids, etc. Consistent training at home and plenty of car rides within the comfort of his crate have paid off. My husband and I took him out this weekend to a very busy downtown area and farmer's market and he was really good! He's 6 months old now and I will be bringing him out much more now that he can handle it. I think if I would have pushed him with too much when he was younger it wouldn't have turned out so well. I questioned myself a lot during the last 4 months though. Everyone says, socialize, socialize, socialize. I think you can only do what your pup is ready for.


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## Julian G

Leerburg is against anyone petting your dog or any dog parks. I can see why.


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## MineAreWorkingline

maxtmill said:


> I currently live in Costa Rica, where there are many many street dogs; they trot around downtown, appear to know how to cross the streets without getting run over, and never make a nuisance of themselves. Most of the dogs in the main part of downtown are fed scaps by people, and don't appear starving (unlike all the strays in the country!). Many of the locals have pet dogs who follow them around town unleashed, but they follow their folks and never run off. The locals are not known as being dog lovers, but their dogs are very well behaved! It is somewhat of a mystery to me!


When I grew up, there were no leash laws. The dogs were also very well behaved and responsive to their owners. To this day, I can see the same in dogs who are given plenty of freedom off leash starting at an early age vs dogs always housed inside, and/or fenced / tied outside, and always leashed off property regardless of length of leash.

I don't know, maybe it has something to do with just letting a dog be a dog unfettered. I can't fathom how a dog can be mentally and emotionally healthy when constantly restrained.


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## Jenny720

Growing we had a dog that lived down the block his name was mulligan- he was a beagle mix- medium small sized. The owners always let him roam the streets. My mother nicknamed him Mulligan Stew because many neighbors would get angry with him as he got quite a few female dogs pregnant or raided their garbage. they were not happy with him. I heard 1 man shot him in the eye with a bee bee gun because he impregnated his dog- yeah the man was not well like regardless. Mulligan was blind in one eye because of that and yet the owners still let him roam free. We would see him trot down the middle of the road always looking like he had somewhere to go and was late. Anyway this dog out lived 2 of our dogs- I swear he lived to be around 18-20 if that is possible. I was in 2 grade when he was a pup still around when I was in college. Mulligan I'm sure he can tell quite a few stories. Not that I would let my dogs free roam Just always thought mulligan was a mystery.


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## maxtmill

Yes, I do see the merit in allowing a dog to be a dog and run free, but safety is a concern. A solid recall first will be essential, I assume!


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## MineAreWorkingline

maxtmill said:


> Yes, I do see the merit in allowing a dog to be a dog and run free, but safety is a concern. A solid recall first will be essential, I assume!


Young puppies are very reluctant to leave your side when off lead, it is natural for them to want to follow and stay with you. You can build on it from there. Of course, you would do this somewhere safe, but many on this forum use this method with great success to teach solid recalls. Leashing puppies all the time can be counterproductive to this simple method.

Ask the owners of the well behaved dogs you admire in Costa Rica. Don't be surprised when they tell you they have never leashed their dogs.


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## brookwoodgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When I grew up, there were no leash laws. The dogs were also very well behaved and responsive to their owners. To this day, I can see the same in dogs who are given plenty of freedom off leash starting at an early age vs dogs always housed inside, and/or fenced / tied outside, and always leashed off property regardless of length of leash.
> 
> I don't know, maybe it has something to do with just letting a dog be a dog unfettered. I can't fathom how a dog can be mentally and emotionally healthy when constantly restrained.


When I first got Elsa, my last GSD, she had lived in an apartment, and had apparently been crated a lot, when she was in the apartment, and on a leash outside. When she first went out into my fenced yard, (I have an acre and a half, though only about an acre is fenced), she was obviously amazed and astounded that she was outside and free to run. The expression on her face told it all. She zoomed around like a crazy thing, 

That being said, there's a lot of advantage to living in a neighborhood where one can walk a dog on a leash. Beside the socialization advantages, I live in a rural area, and while there are fields near me, they are full of deer and deer ticks. Walking therefore is rife with the inevitable possibility of getting a bitten by a deer tick and getting lyme. My understanding is the lyme vaccine doesn't really work and has its own dangers. And its hard to see a deer tick on a longcoat GSD. I used to drive Elsa to neighborhoods where we could walk. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with Blitz. We'll probably do the field walking, but I know it means I'm putting him and me at risk for lyme. That's true just for being in my backyard, of course, but it's more so in the fields nearby where you can see the deer roaming.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

brookwoodgirl said:


> When I first got Elsa, my last GSD, she had lived in an apartment, and had apparently been crated a lot, when she was in the apartment, and on a leash outside. When she first went out into my fenced yard, (I have an acre and a half, though only about an acre is fenced), she was obviously amazed and astounded that she was outside and free to run. The expression on her face told it all. She zoomed around like a crazy thing,
> 
> *That being said, there's a lot of advantage to living in a neighborhood where one can walk a dog on a leash. * Beside the socialization advantages, I live in a rural area, and while there are fields near me, they are full of deer and deer ticks. Walking therefore is rife with the inevitable possibility of getting a bitten by a deer tick and getting lyme. My understanding is the lyme vaccine doesn't really work and has its own dangers. And its hard to see a deer tick on a longcoat GSD. I used to drive Elsa to neighborhoods where we could walk. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with Blitz. We'll probably do the field walking, but I know it means I'm putting him and me at risk for lyme. That's true just for being in my backyard, of course, but it's more so in the fields nearby where you can see the deer roaming.


It is not so easy to walk a dog in most communities nowadays. The risk of attack by other dogs is very high in many areas. Although dog parks get the blame, most people I know whose dogs have been attacked by other dogs had it happen in residential communities.


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## carmspack

inspired by http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-growling-barking-other-dogs.html#post8176410 

There is a published study offered in the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour - clinical applications and research 
which is titled Analysis of correlations between early social exposure and reported aggression in the dog

Briefly , data gathered from close to 800 Australian participants who had dogs within an age range of one to three years,
acquired at the ages of 10 weeks or younger , not breed or gender specific.
The questionnaire asked them about their experience -- at what age did they take the dog to public places whether parks or sidewalks .
They asked how many encounters did that young pup have with unfamiliar dogs and how much time was spent making encounters per week. 
They were asked whether they restricted their pup's exposure based on how THEIR dog reacted . (fear or aggression)
Finally they were asked whether their dog had displayed aggression.

The average age for this socialization was approximately 13 weeks of age. - 51% responded that they "socialized" before the timeline of the final booster vaccination. 
I said the timeline , the average age when the standard vaccination protocol is typically completed because not every one adheres to it . With some the vaccinations (if any) are completed in a staggered , longer time period .

Of this group 34 % reported having experienced their dog reacting aggressively toward an unfamiliar dog.


The findings were that when an owner waited longer to begin public social exposure the chances of their dog becoming an adult with aggression towards other dogs was reduced .

**** quote **** "that every week that an owner waited to begin public social exposure reduced the odds of their dog becoming aggressive to other dogs as an adult by 4.2%"

Spending more time with unfamiliar dogs , or spending time with more unfamiliar dogs in public areas made no positive change to the likelihood that the dog would not be aggressive (dog to dog) . In fact the negative experiences predisposed them to later aggression.
Early exposure to a range of public exposure 

Not doing any good in the long run.

I know that people like to get the young pups out there . They are fantastic ice breakers - bring friendly attention -- dog doesn't care . Rewarding and lovely for the person . Who doesn't love a cute pup ?

this was not covered in the study (to my knowledge) - I would add exposure to other dogs in structured puppy classes -- 

Do what is right for the dog.


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## selzer

Sometimes I take a youngster to puppy classes, but I ensure there will be no free-for-all. Other than that, I really don't go out of my way to expose puppies to other dogs early on. I think it is counter-productive.


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## Deb

selzer said:


> Sometimes I take a youngster to puppy classes, but I ensure there will be no free-for-all. Other than that, I really don't go out of my way to expose puppies to other dogs early on. I think it is counter-productive.



I do the same. I have Enya starting class next week, she'll be 4 months old. She'll see the dogs, but not play with them. While I've taken her with me to stores here and there, I've avoided other dogs other than the ones here.


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## carmspack

Way Too Quiet said:


> I have to say that I was very concerned about our GSD's temperment after bringing him home at 8 wks. He seemed too shy and a bit nervy. Bringing him out to a park seemed too much for him and he would mostly bark and acted like a wild animal in public. And he had had come from a great breeder who exposed the litter to noises and people/kids, etc. Consistent training at home and plenty of car rides within the comfort of his crate have paid off. My husband and I took him out this weekend to a very busy downtown area and farmer's market and he was really good! He's 6 months old now and I will be bringing him out much more now that he can handle it. I think if I would have pushed him with too much when he was younger it wouldn't have turned out so well. I questioned myself a lot during the last 4 months though. Everyone says, socialize, socialize, socialize. I think you can only do what your pup is ready for.


how is your pup doing?


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## lrodptl

I socialized August constantly from 10 weeks old. He'd do 4 hours 3 times a week til he was 8 months at a doggy daycare where I could watch him via video feed. I supplemented that with Petco and Petsmart puppy playtimes twice a week. August is now 3 years old and is not good with other dogs. I stopped the daycare because of the neutering requirement and my older GSD is not dog friendly so that's what I have now,2 GSDs,one temperamentally fearful and reactive to other dogs (attacking and attempting to bite other dogs aggressively since 8 weeks old) and the other lacks the benefits of continued dog socialization. They do have 1 other dog buddy they've known since they were pups who they love,so I know they are capable.


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## carmspack

lrodptl said:


> I socialized August constantly from 10 weeks old. He'd do 4 hours 3 times a week til he was 8 months at a doggy daycare where I could watch him via video feed. I supplemented that with Petco and Petsmart puppy playtimes twice a week. August is now 3 years old and is not good with other dogs. I stopped the daycare because of the neutering requirement and my older GSD is not dog friendly so that's what I have now,2 GSDs,one temperamentally fearful and reactive to other dogs (attacking and attempting to bite other dogs aggressively since 8 weeks old) and the other lacks the benefits of continued dog socialization. They do have 1 other dog buddy they've known since they were pups who they love,so I know they are capable.


and that is why I started this thread !

I am sure you were acting on your best intentions . You are not alone . 

I don't know when this concept of socializing young pups, or dog parks was "sold" to the public . 

It is so contrary to the nature and needs of the dog . Have we lost common sense , are so urban that we no longer understand an animal as an animal, have humanized them , pressured by some peta agenda that makes the person feel good ? 

PLEASE, NEW PUP OWNERS, DO NOT DO THIS

Dogs do not need to be "socialized" to the contact of other dogs.

When I was a kid there weren't any puppy or doggie daycare, or commercial playtime sessions.
Certainly no dedicated facilities with two way mirrors or video feeds.

This is the worst . You weren't even there for your pup to look toward you for support or guidance. 

I wonder if there was any successful customer.

a bit of passion here - not singling you out -- I honestly think you had the best of intentions.



.


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## telavivgsd

carmspack said:


> and that is why I started this thread !
> 
> 
> I don't know when this concept of socializing young pups, or dog parks was "sold" to the public .
> 
> It is so contrary to the nature and needs of the dog . Have we lost common sense , are so urban that we no longer understand an animal as an animal, have humanized them , pressured by some peta agenda that makes the person feel good ?
> 
> PLEASE, NEW PUP OWNERS, DO NOT DO THIS
> 
> Dogs do not need to be "socialized" to the contact of other dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


It's so so hard not to get stuck in this mindset today though. Klaus was fearful of most other dogs right off the bat, and everyone around me, in puppy training groups, etc. was pushing the whole "expose him to more dogs, make him play with them" thing. It feels so urgent, because everyone stresses that there's a limited window for this, and if you miss it, your dog will turn out to be some dog hating monster. Luckily I found this thread and people here, and instead we just gave other dogs a wide berth as much as possible and let him grow up a bit.

He now has almost no reaction to most dogs we pass, or he wants to play - the polar opposite of how he was. He's still improving, and he'll never be a "dog friendly" dog, but he doesn't need to be. When he does still have his occasional fearful reaction (interestingly usually towards really small dogs), people sometimes tell me, oh, he should have played with more dogs when he was younger.


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## MineAreWorkingline

When I was growing up, there were no leash laws, doggie daycares, dog parks, etc.

It was common for people to own two or three dogs, all kept intact, all ran loose in the streets.

The dogs, even new puppies, all hung together with the kids, played with us, walked with us, and chased us on our bikes. 

Dogs grew up being savvy in doggie social skills. Fights were rare, even when females were in heat and males followed in packs. 

All of this ended with leash laws and helped create leash reactivity and a lack of doggie social skills. Most don't qualify these behaviors as good family pet material nor does it remind us of our childhood dogs from back then.

Perhaps this is where and why doggie daycares, dog parks, etc., have risen to popularity.
@carmspak What was it like with dogs when you were growing up? What did families and children do to enjoy them?


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## lrodptl

carmspack said:


> and that is why I started this thread !
> 
> I am sure you were acting on your best intentions . You are not alone .
> 
> I don't know when this concept of socializing young pups, or dog parks was "sold" to the public .
> 
> It is so contrary to the nature and needs of the dog . Have we lost common sense , are so urban that we no longer understand an animal as an animal, have humanized them , pressured by some peta agenda that makes the person feel good ?
> 
> PLEASE, NEW PUP OWNERS, DO NOT DO THIS
> 
> Dogs do not need to be "socialized" to the contact of other dogs.
> 
> When I was a kid there weren't any puppy or doggie daycare, or commercial playtime sessions.
> Certainly no dedicated facilities with two way mirrors or video feeds.
> 
> This is the worst . You weren't even there for your pup to look toward you for support or guidance.
> 
> I wonder if there was any successful customer.
> 
> a bit of passion here - not singling you out -- I honestly think you had the best of intentions.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Everything I've read says it is pertinent to get a puppy socialized by 4 months old. I complied with August and I don't believe he had any negative experiences at this doggy daycare. All the dogs there are vetted and all are dog friendly. Despite all his socialization and again I never saw anything negative,he is mistrustful of dogs. I think it might have been different if I had continued the socializing,but early socialization was not a magic cure.


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## Deb

I took Enya to Lowes with us today. In the parking lot was a GSD barking from the open bed of a pickup truck. Since he was barking at everyone, it was nonstop barking. Enya looked once and then ignored him. Inside as we were leaving two small dogs walked past us as we stood in the check out line. They barked and lunged and were dragged away. I told her sit, she'd get up, I'd tell her sit, she would, then get back up. But not a bark or growl from her, merely curiosity and wanting to go see closer. As they passed the couple in line behind us loudly said 'It's nice this dog is so nicely trained'. Well, if you count a puppy sitting, standing, sitting, standing well behaved. *G* Had we not been standing in line, I would have moved away from them. The dogs waited until they were almost on her to act aggressively. So you don't know what another dog will do. It's not worth it to walk up to a strange dog thinking they 'look and act friendly'. Friendly can change in an instant.


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## carmspack

Hello folks. I just want to say that I love this web site. Some of my fondest memories I have is when I was a young boy spending time with my German Shepherd. But like pups turn into dogs so that young boy turned into a grown man trying to help my wife raise our kids and get them grown. I never realized that I said it all the time but my youngest son told me I would always say that I wanted a German Shepherd for ME. FF years and all my kids are gone, the the plant I had worked for 33 years is shut down. Old with an empty nest and unemployed. I got that German Shepherd and we became fast friends. Then I got a job 200 miles from home. Took my new best friend with me. We lived in a camper on the river. The bonding is impossible to explane but those days went from being the worst days of my life to almost the best and it was because of a GSD. My best friend recently died and shortly afterwards I found this site and read many posts where people really felt the same pain that I did over their GSD loss. Thanks for all the tender hearts out there. You guys helped. Im soon to be getting a full brother to my previous GSD. Thanks everybody for your posts, I love em all!

Maybe I should have put this with my introduction post.
You Tube




[/QUOTE]


There is a lot to learn from this one . I hope shooter will give a periodic update - video journal to show how it is done with good sense , feeling and patience .


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## wolfy dog

lrodptl said:


> Everything I've read says it is pertinent to get a puppy socialized by 4 months old. I complied with August and I don't believe he had any negative experiences at this doggy daycare. All the dogs there are vetted and all are dog friendly. Despite all his socialization and again I never saw anything negative,he is mistrustful of dogs. I think it might have been different if I had continued the socializing,but early socialization was not a magic cure.


From the puppy's point of view: have a pack of 'dog-friendly' Labradors run up to you and you acquire PTSD for life about dogs. What we call 'dog-friendly' can very well be bully behavior. Depends on how educated the day care employees are about behavior. The fact that they admit an 8 week old doesn't show this IMO.
Pups learn dog behavior from their mother and sibs and therefor should spend ample time with them until they are at least 9 - 10 weeks old.


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## cdwoodcox

I used to feel bad like I should be making more of an effort to get Rosko around other dogs. He was out in public with me everywhere. If he could go in he did. If not he sat in the truck. So he got plenty of people exposure. No dog exposure. We own an old toy poodle but he has been anti social Rosko's lifetime. He played with a Husky pup that a guy who works for me owns one time around 4 months of age. Then at about 6 months we went back to where I got him so my wife could meet his parents. He got to play with his brother Sam and his mother (mostly sam) for an hour or so that day. I took him to play with Sam probably 4 times total. Those two became best friends quick. Besides that until we got Athena no dogs. Then Apollo came along. At 19 months old He is totally indifferent to dogs. I remember at one time he would see a dog from my truck and whine and bark but now he could care less. Athena and Apollo have no outside of the home dog socialization they don't seem to care too much about dogs either. I try and limit their people socialization also. Occasionally someone will approach and go on how beautiful of a German Shepherd one of them are and will ask to pet. I usually let them but most people I just tell them were working on indifference to people so not the best time. So after reading some of this stuff I feel better about being stingy with my dogs.


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## kshadow

I personally don't want my dogs to play with other dogs besides same household dogs. I want my dogs to be indifferent to other dogs.

I do not go to dog parks anyways it's a ''step in poop'' place full of dogs and owners I DO NOT KNOW. My 8 month bernese mountain dog got attacks by a off leashed little dog when she was out on her very first walk. She has not been in contact with other dogs besides seeing them on a walk, she looks at them but doesn't really care. 
IMO I do not know the other dogs. How they've been raised, if they are sick if they have fleas etc....
I do not go to puppy classes for 2 reasons. #1 They are 2 hours away from where I live lol and #2 I don't want to teach my dogs that it is so exciting to see other dogs. I also don't want them to learn unwanted behaviors.

Socializing a dog for me is to let the dog see that everywhere we go no matter what we see is around us is no big deal!


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## Way Too Quiet

carmspack said:


> how is your pup doing?


Loooooong story between then and now, but I ended up returning him to his breeder just recently. He was always unpredictable. One day it seemed he was trustworthy and the next day, week, month, nope! I have a fantastic breeder and she tried helping me with him but in the end we both agreed he was better off back with her, where he can be managed and better trained, than with me. It's been incredibly heartbreaking as well as exhausting as I still love and care for him and always will. I am going to check out pups from her current litter this weekend. I may well be starting this whole journey all over again. But, I have learned so much and I know it will be of value for my next dog. Live and learn, right?


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## konathegsd

My cattle dog was taken to dog parks and is now extremely reactive. My gsd was never taken to a dog park and loves all dogs and is very reliable in a off leash setting with other dogs (like a open field, not a dog park) she was attacked multiple times by off leash dogs while she was on leash. Luckily she still loves dogs and recovers very quickly. Kona was never socialized with children. She loves kids. She was only socialized heavily to sounds,surfaces, environment, and other dogs from a distance. I rarely let her greet other dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom

We've been taking our dogs to off leash parks for 17 years - not to play with other dogs though, they play with us and with each other. We live in a densely populated major metropolitan area with a tiny yard. There's simply no way to adequately exercise them without taking them someplace else, and around here there are either parks where dogs are not allowed at all, parks where dogs are allowed on leash only, or open space areas where dogs are allowed off leash. There are no open fields. 

Dena certainly didn't suffer from it, she didn't have a reactive bone in her body, and her social skills with other dogs were masterful. Keefer is extremely social, wants to meet every dog he sees, and gets excited around them. Is that due to going to off leash parks? Maybe, maybe not. Halo first started going when she was 15 weeks old. She strutted around like she owned the joint and learned many things at the park:

We have to sit before the ball is thrown










Water is fun, and so is climbing on rocks



















Grass is interesting










She followed Keef into the water, learning to swim










This is the dog that has been racing in flyball for 5 years - off leash in a ring with 7 other high drive intense dogs, most of them barking, and dozens of people, tuning all of that out to get a tennis ball from the box and bring it to me for some tug play. This is the dog that we brought to a dock diving event, never having seen a pool or a dock before, that jumped right in with no hesitation, the very first time. Has going to off leash parks hindered her ability or enthusiasm for engaging with us? Clearly not!

For MY dogs, I think all this early exposure to being off leash around lots of other dogs and has been highly beneficial. They learn social skills, and other dogs become merely background noise, a totally routine part of their life from an early age vs a novelty. _But_, I have access to great open space parks where you can spread out and have lots of room to play with your dogs, _and_ I have sound dogs. Halo has always been extremely confident, she was fearless from 10 weeks old when we got her so I wasn't concerned about overwhelming her. Puppy Keefer took his cue from Dena, and puppy Halo did the same with him. 

I wouldn't take them to those small fenced dog parks where people sit around and watch their dogs play. At our parks we're basically walking along with our dogs, who are off leash, stopping to play from time to time around other people who are doing the same with their dogs. Because so many people don't have big yards or even yards at all, the vast majority of dogs we've encountered have been well behaved and well mannered because they've taken obedience classes and also go to off leash parks regularly. We've also had several GSD meets at various parks, which are great fun. What's interesting is that when we have met up with other GSD friends, is that while all the dogs are in the same area together, dogs from the same household tend to play with each other rather than with dogs owned by other people.

Whenever I hear people say dog parks are terrible, or dog parks are wonderful, my reaction is always: depends on the park, depends on the dog. Some parks wouldn't be appropriate for any dog, some dogs wouldn't be appropriate for any kind of park. But if you have solid dogs and great multi-acre off leash parks, it can be a lot of fun. I'm fortunate to have that opportunity here, although when I see other people post photos of their property with tons of space for them to train and play with their dogs I am totally envious! And I can see why people who have access to all that space wouldn't understand why people who live in the kind of place that I do take our dogs to off leash parks.


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## selzer

Interesting dog-park. 

What we have is a field about 1/4 acre for small dogs, and maybe 1/2 acre for the big dogs. A drinking fountain in the gated area between the two "fields." A trash can with doggy bags. And a picnic table in each "field." 

Really, my front yard is larger. 

And then you put 7 dogs running around in that little space. The rules say, no toys, no food, and of course, some don't listen.. 

I love living in the country. If I want to let my dogs run together, I can just let them out in the front yard together (Far Field is under construction, so that can only be accessed from the front yard now). 

And I have friends with dogs, one lives on the top of a hill -- many acres, wooded, fields, stream, etc. She has 4 dogs, and if I bring one, and if other people bring theirs, we have a dog park full of GSDs. I have another friend who has a fenced yard for his dogs that looks like Cedar Point for dogs. He has two, a male and a female, and if we add in one of mine, they can have a great time. And my other dog-friends, that I bring dogs to just to socialize with their dog, is up on the lake in PA. It is not fenced, but wooded around (where the lake isn't). And I have been able to let my dogs loose there, without concern that they would visit the neighbors.


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## griz

Does anyone have any literature that talks about the benefits or drawbacks to letting your dog play with other dogs? I am asking because of a friend of mine that is a trainer chastised me for NOT allowing my 16 week old puppy to play with lots of other puppies, and only 2 older mature dogs. 

I went to our local dog park for exposure( outside the fence) and right away i knew I would never enter that place unless I was alone or with some one I trusted. It looked like the worst playground dynamics ever.... bully dog running around literally plowing over dogs, and scared,shy dogs hiding behind their owners. One owner carried their dog to the middle of the park , where it immediately got trounced upon , and it retreated to a corner. 

Anyways I wanted to know if there was actual studies or research of if its just alot of anecdotal evidence that dogs that don't play with other dogs grow up to be just fine. 

Cassidy's mom, that park reminds of me of Dog Park on Fiesta Island... and I could be down with that, where there is alot of room to allow dogs to have their own comfort zone.


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## Raisedbyshepherds

I do not believe in the whole early socialization thing...interaction. In my early 20's got my first bullmastiff. Just moved to a city for first time. Bought into the socialize hype. That dog didnt care for other dogs from day 1. Didnt want to play with them, didnt want anything to do with other dogs. No problem unless a dog came up with bad manners. Then she would pin the other dog by the back of neck without hurting them. Let them know not to rudely invade her personal space. No real aggression just a correction. Of coarse other dog owners thought she was killing them.....
Anyway having bought into the hype I made a major effort to take her to the local dog parks several times a week. 
IF IT WERE POSSIBLE TO SOCIALIZE THE MISTRUST OF OTHER DOGS OUT OF HER IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. 
Finally figured out you just cant change a dogs basic nature. 
Nurture dont beat nature
So for me I just dont believe dogs need to be forced to play with other dogs. 
We have a friend with a good older dog who comes to our house and plays with our dogs. But they know him and enjoy him.


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## Kazel

My dog does well with new dogs, but I saw fear as a puppy and so I had her play with with quite a few dogs. However I did not socialize her enough with people and since she has kind of crappy genetics it has not turned out very good. 

On the other hand my full bred GSD is a doll with people. She loves new people, was abused in her previous home and was a ranch dog so not a lot of socialization. 

So it's kind of an interesting mix of genetics and environments. I think the socializing is very important to be honest. But I think it probably isn't as important in a dog with good genetics and temperament as a dog with poor genetics. I'd rather be safe than sorry. It's much harder to socialize an older dog than have them used to it from the time they are puppies. From now on I will do early socialization and continue on with it with my puppies.


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## Cassidy's Mom

We have several good off leash areas here, the pictures I posted above are all from Point Isabel, which is almost 50 acres on the San Francisco Bay. It's one of the largest in the country and gets over a million visitors a year. We live about a half hour away, and used to go every weekend. There was an article about it in The Bark: Great Dog Parks: Point Isabel, CA | The Bark

I found this video online, which just happens to feature several GSDs:


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## Cassidy's Mom

griz said:


> I went to our local dog park for exposure( outside the fence) and right away i knew I would never enter that place unless I was alone or with some one I trusted. It looked like the worst playground dynamics ever.... bully dog running around literally plowing over dogs, and scared,shy dogs hiding behind their owners. One owner carried their dog to the middle of the park , where it immediately got trounced upon , and it retreated to a corner.
> 
> Anyways I wanted to know if there was actual studies or research of if its just alot of anecdotal evidence that dogs that don't play with other dogs grow up to be just fine.


Ugh, I wouldn't ever go to a place like that either. I don't think it's necessary for dogs to play with other dogs indiscriminately, but if you have friends with nice dogs it's fun to get them together and let them romp, such as Raisedbyshepherds describes. 



Raisedbyshepherds said:


> I do not believe in the whole early socialization thing...interaction.





> So for me I just dont believe dogs need to be forced to play with other dogs.
> We have a friend with a good older dog who comes to our house and plays with our dogs. But they know him and enjoy him.


Remember that socialization is about exposure, not necessarily interaction. I think most people agree with you that it's not a good idea to force dogs to play with other dogs.


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## Steve Strom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> We have several good off leash areas here, the pictures I posted above are all from Point Isabel, which is almost 50 acres on the San Francisco Bay. It's one of the largest in the country and gets over a million visitors a year. We live about a half hour away, and used to go every weekend. There was an article about it in The Bark: Great Dog Parks: Point Isabel, CA | The Bark


Remember when that was just an open area behind the post office?


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## Cassidy's Mom

That was before our time, Steve. We started going there in the Fall of 2000, with Cassidy. The cafe wasn't there and Mudpuppy's was in a portable building, but it was already a very heavily used off leash park by then.


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## selzer

I don't know if it is good or not for puppies to play with other puppies beyond a certain age. It's fun to watch them, but I think it makes outtings to obedience classes kind of a bore. What they want to be doing is wrestling and playing and running and chasing. 

Which makes Susie even more of an ogre when she takes the pup to obedience classes and makes him sit and down and walk past all these other doggies that would just love to run and play.


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## car2ner

selzer said:


> I don't know if it is good or not for puppies to play with other puppies beyond a certain age. It's fun to watch them, but I think it makes outtings to obedience classes kind of a bore. What they want to be doing is wrestling and playing and running and chasing.
> 
> Which makes Susie even more of an ogre when she takes the pup to obedience classes and makes him sit and down and walk past all these other doggies that would just love to run and play.


In my current group class, the instructor let two of the dogs play together after the lesson. He quickly recognized his mistake the next time we met, because the dogs were not interested in working, they wanted to play. I once heard of someone described a puppy class where the pups played first and then did some structured learning. I can't imagine that working very well, unless they are working with pups with a 5 second attention span. And then really, how much is the pup learning?


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## Steve Strom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That was before our time, Steve. We started going there in the Fall of 2000, with Cassidy. The cafe wasn't there and Mudpuppy's was in a portable building, but it was already a very heavily used off leash park by then.


Yeah, Costco wasn't even there yet. Lol. When I'd take my dog in the truck with me, I'd stop off there to walk around and use the pay phones. No cell phone then either.


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## az_girl

Dudes mom said:


> If we are talking about socializing with other dogs, I haven't done that. Everyone I know with dogs, doesn't have a dog I would want my dog to grow up to be like


THIS! Now I have zero experience bc we are getting our puppy in 11 days and trying to figure out what her socialization will look like..But one of the first things I thought was, I don know anyone who has an adult dog that's a great example of a well trained dog. Kinda sad.


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## car2ner

az_girl said:


> THIS! Now I have zero experience bc we are getting our puppy in 11 days and trying to figure out what her socialization will look like..But one of the first things I thought was, I don know anyone who has an adult dog that's a great example of a well trained dog. Kinda sad.


it is sad, but not hopeless. When my boy was a pup my neighbors had aloof dogs who had no interest in messing with the energy of a large young pup. We had to deal with some leash frustration because my boy wanted to meet and greet. Successful passes of other dogs meant that we humans would stop and play, he and I or he and my hubby. It was a nice reward for good behavior. Over the years he learned that he could watch other dogs but not expect to visit them nose to nose. It took time and maturity to get to this point. 

Once our gal dog was old enough to play together with our boy that helped with that desire to play like a dog. Both still are curious to meet other dogs but they have learned that playing with a strange dog is a very rare occurrence. There just aren't that many dogs we want to set up play dates with.


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## Apex1

az_girl said:


> THIS! Now I have zero experience bc we are getting our puppy in 11 days and trying to figure out what her socialization will look like..But one of the first things I thought was, I don know anyone who has an adult dog that's a great example of a well trained dog. Kinda sad.


I don't know anyone with a dog. That said my puppy is going to make a great adult dog who is a fantastic example of a well trained dog for my next puppy someday.  

Yea I am hooked. :halogsd:


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## Steve Strom

az_girl said:


> THIS! Now I have zero experience bc we are getting our puppy in 11 days and trying to figure out what her socialization will look like..But one of the first things I thought was, I don know anyone who has an adult dog that's a great example of a well trained dog. Kinda sad.


This is how I look at it. You have to be careful about where you take them, and what dogs they have contact with, but I think its better to let puppies see their world rather then isolate them. The number 1 benefit from that, is you get to learn about your puppy. Is he confident, shy, nervous, curious? It helps you adapt what you need to do, or not do. You can't change temperament, but during those first months when you have a lot of influence over their perception of things without really trying, you can create a foundation of whats fun, or no big deal.


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## BradyC87

Our GSD puppy is just over 16 weeks now and we introduced him to other family dogs right away as we knew he would be around them quite a bit. Fortunately, my parents have a chocolate lab puppy a few months older than ours and they play every day for several hours as my dad picks up our puppy after we leave for work so he is only in the crate a few hours a day.

However, we did have one bad experience on Thanksgiving with my mother in laws dog. Our GSD Winston walked up to him and sniffed him after they had already been around each other for a couple hours and one previous time with no signs of aggression. The other dog snapped and bit Winston on the nose and it has been difficult work trying to get him to be ok with other dogs now. Luckily he still does fine with my parent's puppy and my sister's dog but he also sees them on basically a daily basis so was very familiar with them before he was bitten.

I would say early socialization is good but with the understanding that you never know how other people raise or treat their dogs so just be careful.


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## davewis

I have found the best socialization wrt other dogs is group lessons at a local dog training center.

In general, dog parks and puppy parties don't seem well structured. All the dogs behaving randomly seem to leave my pups feeling anxious.

At my local training center, they run 45-minute classes of six dogs/owners. For the most part, the dogs, and more importantly the owners, take the time to work. Not just stand around and laugh at the cute puppies.

Good people and good dogs.


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