# Raw Diet Studies



## RacerX (Jan 26, 2009)

First of all I want to thank everyone on this forum for their input on everything from training to diet. It's a great resource for a first-time GSD owner like myself.

That being said, I never knew of the hotly debated topic of raw v. commercial dog food until I started doing some research for my 10-week-old puppy which is currently on a raw diet.

From what I can tell it from doing limited research, it comes down to personal preference, but I'm looking for emperical data from actual studies that can be looked at objectively.

Do such professional studies exist? 

I used the search on this site, but please forgive me if it's clearly posted already.

Thanks!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I don't think they do yet. But talk to Lauri (Lauri and the Gang). She's fed thousands of pounds of meat to her dogs over the years and one notable example is one of her dog's epilepsy is COMPLETELY controlled on the raw diet, no meds.









http://www.ilcockerrescue.org/
Cockers are well known for their skin and ear problems, amongst other issues. This rescue requires that adopters keep the dogs on a raw, natural diet because they've seen the difference it makes. 

Everyone here who successfully feeds raw can tell you up and down all the good things that have happened since switching to raw. I really wish there were a real study done on this, but since most feeding trials are paid for by pet food companies, the only studies I see happening are those skewed to make commercial diets come out on top. 

I'd love to see a real, neutrally-funded and -operated feed trial, though.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RacerXDo such professional studies exist?


No.

And why not? Studies need to be funded. Those that fund studies are usually the ones that will benefit from the findings of such studies.

The only 'ones' who would benefit from such a study are the dogs.









I'll take my first-hand experiences over studies any day of the week.


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## Jason_Sidener (Sep 22, 2005)

> Quote:I'll take my first-hand experiences over studies any day of the week.


Same here


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

The only study I know of is the Pottenger one with cats.
The reason why there are so few studies on a raw or home made diet for pets is because most pet diet/nutrition studies are funded by the large commercial pet food companies.


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## RacerX (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks for the replies.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

If everyone that fed a raw diet would contribute $1.00, I am sure a study could be funded. Some universities would like to do studies but can not find the funds; therefore the big dog food companies fork over tons of money for research.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You wanna see a study? Here's a "study" for you.









My male dog Grimm was 18 months old-- but *had stopped developing* around age 7 months. At 18 months, he looked the same, acted the same, as at 7 months. His coat was sparse, prickly, broken, eerily pale. His behavior was crazy-unsettled. Oh, yeah-- and he was eating a "premium" grain-free expensive kibble, Orijen 6 Fresh Fish.

Grimm before raw:

This shows you his pale, crispy, sparse coat and weak, thin body:











You can see the almost crazed, overexcited look in his eyes here..




















See his thin coat, pale, coloring, ribs showing?










After just THREE MONTHS of raw:

He got MUSCLES.. a dark, heavy, glossy coat..




























Four months after raw, he has muscled up, gotten darker, thick coat-- calmed down a LOT:










*And yes, it IS the same dog!!*



















*The ONLY thing I changed was to switch to a raw diet!*


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable in raw as the others, but I'm pro-raw. I used to be very anti-raw. You know why? One negative article that was based on hear-say and that the author had seen puppies do horribly on raw. Gosh, I was so naive back then.
When I actually researched later on, I came to the conclusion that if raw makes a dog sick, it is most likely the fault of the owner for doing something wrong. Or it just doesn't work for that particular dog for whatever reason (allergies to meat, etc).
I gradually got swayed from anti-rawism by testimonies from raw-feeders and doing my research. Now, I feed one of my dogs raw. I'd feed both raw, but can't afford that yet.
Have I noticed a difference in my raw-fed dog? Let me tell ya. I started raw last September. My dog's coat nowadays is shinier and softer, his breath smells better, his teeth are cleaner, and he seems to have more energy.

There's tons of anti-raw articles out there. Some are pretty darn convincing. But they often hide facts or misrepresent them.
I read those articles, but remain unconvinced that raw is bad because I follow the rules and my dog does great on it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Not a professional study. But 100% solid results.

My mixed breed had (note past tense), spay incontinence. Otherwise, she was in good health. 

Medication did not work to help her. The actual name for spay incontinence is "Hormone Responsive Incontinence", because you give you dog hormones, and the incontinence goes away.

It did not for my dog. It did nothing. I chose to not try other drugs available due to long-term health concerns, and decided to just live with it. 

I switched her to RAW, just because I felt it was the healthiest way I could feed my dog, and among all the usual improvements, her incontinence got under control! No medication! She still has the very occasional leaking incident (like, maybe, once every two or three months, or even less!), but other than that, it is GONE!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

We all know that humans would be far healthier eating an unprocessed diet. We don't question the fact that obesity and the health problems related to it are due to our horrible diet of fast and processed food in the USA. We know that we must eat fresh fruits and veggies, lean meats (or other protein sources for some) to really be healthy (along with exercise) and that we could never thrive on Purina People chow. Why do we need studies to show that canines do best on a diet they were designed to eat over millions of years?

I have fed raw for almost 10 years, raised countless puppies on raw and will have my 4th raw litter (these pups will be 3rd generation raw fed) in another 6 weeks.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

i just recently went to more of a rotation diet. i'm a bit afraid to go prey model raw, but i switched dinner from kibble mixed with canned to raw. i use the nature's variety patties and medallions. now, storm does get some kibble in the am, but that's it. dinner is raw. i do all 5 on the nature's variety. it's a bit costly, but i work at a pet nutrition center and do get a discount. plus, 2 of my dogs are pugs, so they only eat like 2 medallions at dinner. i would like to eventually take them off of the kibble in the am and incorporate some real, raw stuff like chicken quarters and legs and such. anyway, even with the dinner time kibble taken away, it's been about 3 or 4 weeks. i've noticed shinier softer coats and storm seems to be bulking up. at first he started to lose. i'm giving him a bit more nature's variety at dinner and he's bulking back up again. the hardest thing for me with the raw is determining what is "enough". it looks like such a little amount in storm's bowl compared to a bowl of kibble. also, i've gotten some samples of a freeze dried meat called afs (animal food services). it's all organ meat freeze dried. maybe i can use that instead of kibble. the wellness core isn't exactly cheap either!!!

another thing that i've noticed. in another section is a post about the major kibble companies undergoing a huge class action lawsuit. if kibble is so great, why are all the companies that make it being sued?? 

so guys, i'm slowing making the transition over to more of a fresh, raw diet. i still am not off of kibble, but am slowly turning against kibble and becoming pro raw. 

as far as raw studies, the dog food companies and vets do not want you to know this secret either. so don't think we'll see any study on the benefits except for those that are pro raw feeders and can tell their stories.

maybe since some companies like bravo and primal and nature's variety are making the raw diets, we might soon see a study if they will fund it!!!


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

ooops, forgot to add, just look at those pics of grimm!!! simply incredible that this is the same dog!!!! i see the results in all 5 of mine. i'm with everyone else on this....if you're seeing results like this, how can it be bad?


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

Patti!!! Look at those pictures of Grimm....WOW............

I changed one of mine to raw because I could just not get her to eat kibble consistently. She was just so fussy. Raw is a huge hit with her, never have issues with her eating, her coat (she is a GSD/Collie) is like silk, her teeth are fabulous and she has more energy. 

It's been a wonderful experience. My other two pups are on a kibble/raw mix, kibble in the morning and raw at night and I am finding the same with them, beautiful coats nice weight and my one girl who had reoccurring bladder infections has not had one since.


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## RacerX (Jan 26, 2009)

Wow! Grimm doesn't even look like the same dog. It's like he went into the Doggie Witness Protection Program or something.







He looks awesome and that's quite the transformation.

I agree that some of the anti-raw articles are very convincing including the bacteria stuff. Took my 10-week pup to the vet yesterday and guess what? She said not to, and could not offer any advice. 

Thanks again for the information.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Yeah, the vet thing is tough. While I do not think my vet is totally pro raw, he has never said anything negative to me about feeding it (and I have not kept that a secret). 

For us, the difference is huge although I don't have any pictures of outward appearance changes like Patti and Grimm. Before raw: my dog was on allergy shots that didn't seem to be working, we tried some sort of cortisone shots (I forget what at this point), antihistimines 24/7 and still itched (he would itch so much it would keep me up at night). 3 weeks after raw - off the meds, and soon after off the allergy shots! 

And as a bonus...my dogs were never big fans of feeding time. They ate, but it was like "whatever." Now they are just super excited for feeding time (we get reminded about 15-30 min prior to food time that it is getting close as they will start running around and go sit in the kitchen). Levi even starts "dancing" and doing puppy barks if I am taking too long preparing his food!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Most vets aren't going to give you the 'thumbs up' about raw feeding. Either they just aren't that knowledgeable or they are outright against it. The first vet I took Risa to would not see past diet when Risa was ill so we parted ways. We found a new vet who did not have tunnel vision and was open to raw feeding. They even sold Nature's Variety premade (as well as high-end kibble) in their office. I was really sad to have to leave that practice when I moved.









My new vet (who we only saw once to become established as a client) did not ask what I fed Risa so I did not tell him. He did, however, comment about how GREAT she looked.







If diet comes up, I won't lie. I just hope I won't have to go hunting for a new vet at that time.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

we do have one vet in the area that does sell the nature's variety. my vet told me he is not against raw, because he simply does not know that much about it. at least he was honest. i think they just don't want to see healthy dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Murphy-ElperroguapoMost vets aren't going to give you the 'thumbs up' about raw feeding. Either they just aren't that knowledgeable or they are outright against it. The first vet I took Risa to would not see past diet when Risa was ill so we parted ways. We found a new vet who did not have tunnel vision and was open to raw feeding.


 I was in the same situation, haven't found the vet yet that approves, but the new vet I am going to is more open minded.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Maybe I forgot to mention: With raw, Grimm suddenly (like, maybe 3 - 4 days into starting the raw) calmed down in the house. He became boneless. A blob on the livingroom floor. All the carbs from the high-end "grain-free kibble (it had potatoes in it) were gone from his bloodstream. He totally relaxes in the house now-- it is like another dog, he just completely relaxes. 

When I moved to a new apartment and had no butcher, Grimm was on kibble again for 2 months. Again when switched back to raw-- about 3- 4 days into it, he again became a boneless blob in the house. Nice! No more jitters from carbs in kibble!


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

Oh, and Grimm looks amazing now. His older pictures remind me of Cookie actually. I wonder what would happen if I switched Cookie to 100% raw...oh, how I wish I could afford to!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

How about this for a "case study". Chimo just had his second blood panel down in two years. First was just after his 10th birthday, second just after his 11th birthday: both years his blood work came back within normal ranges in EVERY category, every single one, two years in a row.







Doc says he rarely gets any dog to have bloodwork come back that well much less one his age.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

YESSS!! Now that majorly *is* a raw success story!! The fact that both his kidney and liver values were doing so well.. at age 11!! YESSS!!









Castlemaid, I LOVE the story of your girl losing her spay incontinence. I remember reading about that before! That too is incredible!!









Cookie-- I am on _disability/welfare _and feed raw. *It costs cheaper than Orijen 6 Fresh Fish kibble.* If I lived in USA, I could do it even _cheaper_-- cos you guys have CostCo, Sams Club, BJs, and Walmart. How do you make raw cheap, when food costs so much?? Easy:
1. Go on Freecycle and get a cheap-o or free little freezer, size of a college fridge.
2.Go shopping at Walmert for bulk packs o' chicken legs.
3. Go shopping at Walmert (or Sams Club) for ground turkey. Or, beef off-cuts from a butcher.
CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP-- you just got your raw diet base right there!
*It costs me LESS than feeding Orijen.. and I don't even have a Walmart here!*


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

It can be eaven cheaper if you have a meat market in your area or someplace to purchase wholesale.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

I even had a reasonable amount of success posting on freecycle. I live in Hickville USA and every year hunters are taggin their limit. Almost all of them end up throwing out some of last years catch to make room for the new stuff, and I get dibs. I also ask my friends and family to call me when they are cleaning the deer for the stuff they don't want....like the legs (with meat still on it, b/c they don't want to mess with getting it all off for stewmeat) and ribcage....my dogs love venison







Living near the coast we also have alot of fish that is easily accessible....but I prefer to freshwater fish (luckily there are alot of lakes, and even friends with stocked ponds). And chicken legs and quarters are pretty inexpensive.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I think all these testamonials are great. I only mentioned a controlled study because that is what is preached at vet schools. IF there were a "scientific" study - including bloodwork numbers, think of the impact it would have in the nutrition world for dogs. I understand and appreciate the raw concept and practice. But to "convience" others, you need hard scientific numbers - unfortunately. If you take these success stories, add in the bloodwork numbers, and growth/health numbers from a properly constructed and managed scientific research study, then no one could stand back and say - prove it.

That's all I meant. Now throw me a CHICKEN BACK, I'm hongry!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Most if not all nutritional studies for dogs are funded by the kibble companies. None of them would want to finance a study to make people stop feeding kibble.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I should also mention that getting Keeta back on kibble, even if just for one day, and even with grain-free kibbles, she will start leaking again. 

So definitly diet related!


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Make a google search for BARF or rawfood diet and Dr. Susan Wynn. She's done a small one years ago,- of course it wasn't too positive as most dogs were fed mainly chicken.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

How about a chicken producer funding the study. Or the cattlemen's association? USDA? There are other organizations/associations that have an interest in animal feds besides Purina and Nestles and Mars. Have to be creative and think outside the box. Just because all the studies up to this point have been supported by dog food companies isn't a reason to say it's not worth trying. How about an association of Raw Feeding Dog Owners? If you want to carry the banner for Raw feeding, get your bullets before you march! Think cottage industries where the local farmer has a Raw distribution center beside his barn? From the animals he raises and fish he produces in ponds. Direct sales, no middle man. We have the technology! "Times they are a-changing".


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

My SAR dog, at 10 months was diagnosed with CRF. The vets on her case told me she would not live to age 2. They wanted her on all kinds of vet prescribed diet garbage. I told them, I couldn't do that. If she was barely going to make it to 2 years, she was going to enjoy every morsel of food I could present her. They argued with me repeatedly about giving a kidney problem dog a raw diet. In their words, I was going to kill my dog sooner with that kind of a diet. I continued her raw diet, I continued to train her, certify her, work her....and in April she will be 8 years old. Every time she goes to the vet (every six months for blood work) they are amazed she is alive and doing so well. The only sign I have that she has CRF is that she doesn't concentrate her urine and needs to go out more frequently than my other dogs. She has convinced my vets that a raw diet done correctly and developed for each dogs individual needs is beneficial. For a dog that was suppose to be dead six years ago, I think she looks pretty **** good.

Farquar is the one on the left, in the lead with the ball in her mouth.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Doc, you may have an idea there. Here in Germany, my raw food comes ordered over the internet and delivered to my home.. all it is is frozen blocks of ground beef, or lamb, tripe, or turkey in individual baggies. Chicken RMBs come from the grocery... but the meat base is cheap and I buy in HUGE bulk orders!


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

Okay, how do I get started? Would love to see if raw would help my allergy dog who recently has had some mild seizures.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Can someone give me the abridged version of all the "raw" diets? Some talk about a prey model raw diet; some look like a plate off the all-you-can-buffet; some are as colorful as a Thanksgiving table at grandmas. What is the easiest, simpliest, most straight forward raw feeding program. I do not have a degree in nutrition, I just want something healthy and simple. I do feed one of my dogs Honest Kitchen but do not add raw meat to it.

I can do my own research with my 3 dogs since they all eat a different diet! LOL

Thanks Brightelf. I spend a lot of time day dreaming ....!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Another great study: Renji is a very drivey, intense dog. He operates at almost "border collie speed" when it comes to training. I feed him a raw, grainless diet and when he really wants the reward item, he'll yip excitedly but can still concentrate. The past week or so he's been on a cooked rice and meat mix due to a case of the runs. This diet usually gets him back on track very well. Today we went to the park for fetch and training and I could have tossed him over the fence due to his ADHD behavior! He was WAY too hyper, had problems focusing, totally got stressed to the point of barking bloody murder, it was nuts. Even running some of his energy down didn't make much of a difference. It's the grains. He does this if I have to put him on a cooked rice diet when Giardia shows up.

I AM SO HAPPY I FEED RAW. He is so much easier to train and so much more fun to train when he doesn't have a million screws loose. To say nothing of the great breath and lack of body odor (on the rice diet he is starting to smell a little), the small and firm poops, the excellent condition, etc etc. Raw is GREAT!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

This is NOT hard to get started with! I thought it would be too complex. It is EASY. It isn't simple--the diet needs to be as balanced as possible-- but it *is* easy. 

Others here can give you exact ratios to know how much of each component to feed, but here's an example of what Grimm's meals look like. He is 2, 90+lbs, male, medium energy level.

I toss into the kitchen scale bowl a chicken leg with back piece. It probably ends up weighing about 320 - 385 grams. (I'm in Europe) Then, I throw in a blob of ground beef (or turkey hearts) until the scale reads about 770 grams, more or less. That's the main part of the meal right there! SEE? That wasn't hard at all!

With this, goes:
1 heaping tablespoon of plain yogurt
1 tablespoon apple cider vinegar 
1 fish oil capsule
1 vitamin E capsule
1 brewer's yeast capsule

The organ meat gets added next-- a chunk the size of the end of my thumb of turkey liver. (or any kinda liver)

To round the diet out, we add:
a few chunks of frozen spinach the size of grapes
a small bit of super-finely-grated carrot.. just grate into the bowl.
a couple of frozen blueberries (cheap when buy 'em frozen!)

That's it. Nothing hard. No crazy math, no difficult formulas.

What about variety?
Some days the blueberries get exchanged with 2 black olives.
Some days instead of frozen spinach, he gets frozen squash.
Some days instead of superfine-grated carrots, he gets a lil mashed pear.

Some days the ground beef or turkey hearts gets exchanged with chicken hearts, or ground lamb. 
Some days the chicken leg with backpiece gets exchanged with a chunk of turkey neck (small piece, cos it is bone-dense)

The tiny chunk of liver doesn't get traded in with any other organ.. cos the chicken legs with backpiece has a hunk of kidney in it anyway, as a bonus.

Anything freaky? Yup... sometimes instead of anything big like chicken or turkey with a bone in it, Grimm gets a few handfuls of Baltic Herring. AND-- sometimes, a few times a month, I'll throw in an Oreo-cookie.sized blob of fresh frozen green tripe.

The meals still all look the same:
Blob o' yogurt, fish oil capsule, bewers yeast, apple cider vinegar..add the teeny liver chunk.. whatever veggies and fruits get tossed into the bowl today... with whatever bone-in piece, with whatever muscle meat he eats. 

What if today you have no veggies or fruits? Or, you ran outta liver?? No big deal. Balance over time means, a few days without fish oil, or yogurt, or whatever is okay.... BUT, I would never give a meal with JUST a bone-in piece like a chicken leg, because Grimm could get constipated.. he needs the muscle meat too.. that's the groundbeef or turkey hearts or whatever.

Again, for exact weights of how much to feed, someone with the right ratios can help. This is what has worked for Grimm-- and it is EASY.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My "study" has been going on for 1 yr and 8 mos. I have fed raw for this long. My observations are: 
Benefits
~minimal shedding and very soft silky coat compared to other kibble fed GSD's that I am around. I only brush them about 1x a week. When I run my hand down their back, there is hardly any hair.
~stools are much smaller than kibble and dissolve pretty quickly( I toss them in the woods during my poo patrol) 
~Teeth are shiney and white, little tarter, mostly on the front fangs is where I see any at all.
~NO doggy odor at all, cept the occasional letting one rip(pork?)
~Joyful eating, no pickyness
~weight control is easier, even with a dog obsessed w/ food
~muscle tone is noticeable
~less water intake, so hopefully the kidneys aren't getting overworked
Negatives
~Cost is higher and resources are a challenge
~Should be kept a secret so there is more for me when I call the processor (they are out of stock on the ground meat often)
~Should not be kept a secret due to the benefits of feeding RAW!
~Vets are anti-RAW for the majority
~have to have a large dedicated freezer and fridge if you have more than one dog to keep the cost down by buying in bulk(many times you cannot get certain items unless you order by the case)
~Co-op not availiable in my are for RAW feeders( I know, I should get one going, tried before w/ no response)

_I am fostering a GSD/Kelpie mix and in his 6 weeks of raw/kibble here his coat has come in shiney after it was a dull dry look, and while still a coarse/harsh coat due to the Kelpie in him he is softer. He blew coat for three weeks during the change from shelter kibble mix to what I give him.
I didn't want to give him raw, but it is much more convienent and he does love his turkey necks! When he is adopted, I will try to educate the new owners on diet and even try to help them if they want to do a raw/kibble combo. Delivery??_


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## TANDB (Dec 12, 2005)

My 2 raw fed dogs participated in an unofficial study on heterocyclic aromatic amines, carcinogens found in cooked meat.  <span style="color: #660000"> Description</span> The researcher who studies this, in relation to humans, decided to include hair samples from his kibble fed dogs. I was at his presentation and was intrigued with his results. His <1yr dog tested very high. After that presentation he acquired more samples from other people's kibble fed dogs and my raw fed dogs. Mine had no trace of this carcinogen. Since he's not funded specifically for this he's had to put it on the back burner for a bit but I think he's intrigued enough to continue at some point.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

VERY interesting, TANDB.

I wish they came out with those meat irradiators so I could safely eat raw meat myself! Yup, I am one of those.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

My hubby scarfs down Grimm's raw.







Yup, he'll get low blood sugar, and go crunching right through a raw chicken leg-- bones and all. Nope, he has never gotten sick. In Germany, they eat raw ground pork, raw ground beef, on a roll or cracker.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:In Germany, they eat raw ground pork, raw ground beef, on a roll or cracker.


Hungarians and Germans have good taste.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Wow, Patti, those before and after pictures of Grimm are something else. I wish I had a source for affordable raw food. Until then I only feed it on the weekends.


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