# To Neuter or not to Neuter... That is the question...



## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

I am debating if I should neuter my pup at the vet recommended 5 months old, the breeder recommended 12-18 months old… or if I should stud him out. Both his parents/grandparents and more, especially on his sire’s line, have been health and temperament tested. He is a very good pup; very calm, lovable, and easy to train. If he can produce litters half as good as he is, it would be a benefit for the breed. I just don’t know if there is a market or need for it; seeing all the great pups and dogs on this page. German Shepherds seem to be an excellent breed all around. What do you all think? Looking forward to all expert and non-expert advice.  Before I make any definite decision, I will definitely get all testing needed beforehand (hips, elbows, cardiac, DM, etc.), and would require the same of any mate.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

I am leaning towards the later neuter option nowadays. Just seems like a good idea to let the dog develop as "naturally" as possible before going in and snipping out organs. 

Ever compare the size of a steer to a non-altered bull? Steer get HUGE, bulls get big but nowhere near the size of a steer. GSDs are already at risk for bone/joint issue and adding any size to the equation can't be beneficial. I don't know if cow vs. dog size development correlates in any way, but it's something to think about at least.

As to the vet vs. breeder thing. That is your call. Both parties have unique knowledge. One is a specialist in the the breed(breeder) and one is a generalist with much better knowledge of physiology(vet) and many years of study and practical application of that knowledge. Ask both parties why they chose XX age to get the snip-a-roo done, compare/contrast.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

IMO, wait to neuter. Not because your dog is destined to be a stud, but because of the health benefits of remaining intact through their growth periods. At the clinic I work at our vets do not recommend altering large breed dogs until they are over 14 months.

As for stud, your pup is under 5 months old. You have no idea what his adult personality is yet, and no idea of his final conformation. You have plenty of years (at least two!) to wait to see if he makes the cut to one day sire a litter. You're absolutely on the right track with all your testing, and that's fantastic! Don't forget titles and training, too. Enjoy your time, explore all the sports you can with him, and most of all POST PICS!


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks for the input, it gives me something to think about. Has anyone had any problem with a spraying male? I think that is the biggest fear I have with waiting to neuter. Especially since he will be an indoor dog. He starts his training this coming Saturday, I'm excited about that  
Here he is during leash training... he figured out if he stops, he gets a treat to start back up, gotta love those ears.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Spraying male? Hmm. I reckon that's probably the same as marking, but correct me if I'm wrong. Lifting the leg to pee, right? If you don't want him marking, train him not to. My males aren't allowed to mark on walks. Too messy and I hate stopping for it. You won't have to worry about it until five months at the EARLIEST, probably closer to 8 months on average. Some never hike a leg.


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Yes, marking... I have heard it called spraying, I don't know. My Shih Tzu has been fixed since he was 4 months old so we never went through it. Marking outside would not be a problem, I just don't want them marking in the house which is what I have heard some say they do if you don't get them fixed in time.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

shugarhey said:


> Yes, marking... I have heard it called spraying, I don't know. My Shih Tzu has been fixed since he was 4 months old so we never went through it. Marking outside would not be a problem, I just don't want them marking in the house which is what I have heard some say they do if you don't get them fixed in time.


I'm gonna have to call that more of a wives' tale than anything else! Like anything, if you let them they can... with proper housetraining it really shouldn't be any more of an issue then him pooping in your living room, haha! :wild:


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Two very good articles on the subject I like


Don't Make This Mistake When Scheduling Your Dog's Neutering Procedure


Risks and Benefits to Spaying and Neutering Your Dog - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

marbury said:


> I'm gonna have to call that more of a wives' tale than anything else! Like anything, if you let them they can... with proper housetraining it really shouldn't be any more of an issue then him pooping in your living room, haha! :wild:


 
:silly: I feel silly... lol


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

kr16 said:


> Two very good articles on the subject I like
> 
> 
> Don't Make This Mistake When Scheduling Your Dog's Neutering Procedure
> ...


 
Very informational... I will be looking into it before I make a decision. I want my boy to be has healthy as possible! Thank you for sharing. :thumbup:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Although I'm not for neutering early...I have to admit that when a person thinks they have the "perfect" GSD at 5 months old and claims it will produce the greatest puppies in the world, I tend to lean towards neutering.

Don't take offense to this...but you didn't even know that intact males DO NOT when trained properly (housebroken within a week) don't mark inside the home. But yet you're acting like an expert in GSD temperament and behavior claiming your dog will produce amazing off-spring without him even going through a single obedience class...

I'm not trying to rip you, and I'll probably get ripped myself for my comment, but slow down. Train your dog, trial your dog, get OBJECTIVE opinions about your dog from other people that have had years of experience with the breed. Then decide what you should do.


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Although I'm not for neutering early...I have to admit that when a person thinks they have the "perfect" GSD at 5 months old and claims it will produce the greatest puppies in the world, I tend to lean towards neutering.
> 
> Don't take offense to this...but you didn't even know that intact males DO NOT when trained properly (housebroken within a week) don't mark inside the home. But yet you're acting like an expert in GSD temperament and behavior claiming your dog will produce amazing off-spring without him even going through a single obedience class...
> 
> I'm not trying to rip you, and I'll probably get ripped myself for my comment, but slow down. Train your dog, trial your dog, get OBJECTIVE opinions about your dog from other people that have had years of experience with the breed. Then decide what you should do.


 
Well first of all, my pup is 9 weeks, not 5 months...and he is an amazing pup who comes from a great line. I never said I was an expert, just happy with my dog is all, what is wrong with that? This is the reason I am asking the questions, to LEARN!! It's not like I am going to breed him or neuter him tomorrow, next week, or next month... but I am researching all my options to ensure I make the best decision for HIM.... I hope you do not get ripped, for what?? Opinions **** everyone has one, as for yours... Thanks


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## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

shugarhey said:


> Marking outside would not be a problem, I just don't want them marking in the house which is what I have heard some say they do if you don't get them fixed in time.


I wouldn't let him mark, period. As soon as he lifts his leg, distract him. If he never starts, it will never be an issue.  Otherwise you'll be stopping at every light post, fire hydrant and trash can on trash day so he can mark. 

As far a neutering, we've decided to keep our male intact. For now. If any health issues come up, we will reevaluate. We have a secure yard and will be responsible to keep him away from unaltered females. If we were to have him neutered, we would wait until he was at least two. 




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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

FoxyMom said:


> I wouldn't let him mark, period. As soon as he lifts his leg, distract him. If he never starts, it will never be an issue.  Otherwise you'll be stopping at every light post, fire hydrant and trash can on trash day so he can mark.
> 
> As far a neutering, we've decided to keep our male intact. For now. If any health issues come up, we will reevaluate. We have a secure yard and will be responsible to keep him away from unaltered females. If we were to have him neutered, we would wait until he was at least two.
> 
> ...


 
Keeping them in tact seems to be the majority so far... I will definitely consider it. I plan on keeping him in obedience classes so I'm sure the advanced classes will help teach me to teach him not to mark, if I do wait or decide not to neuter him.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Actually, marking is rarely covered in most obedience classes. It's not something you need to attend classes to learn; it's as simple as saying 'no' or redirecting or popping the lead or however you choose to prevent behaviors when he attempts to do it and rewarding when he squats the way you want. No worries!


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Sounds easy enough ... actually doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Thanks for all the input everyone :beer::beer::beer: Here's another pic... they grow so fast! 

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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Curious what lines he is from, can you post a pedigree link? 

Heres my opinion since everyone gets to have one ..

You dont know anything about your pup until you work it as a young dog/adult, pups can do abrupt 180s followed by a 290 .

You dont know anything about your dog until you compare it to other GSDs that you SEE training and working. 

You dont know anything about your dog until someone with a PROVEN track record of success breeding and or working German Shepherds tells you he is breed worthy. This does not include the petsmart trainer  or the byb who breeds pets in your local area..

You dont know anything about your dog if you think this board (or any other) is full of great examples of the breed that are breed worthy.

(The above I apply to myself as well as others so dont take it personal ).

I am also in favor of leaving the dog intact until maturity, they develop and fill out better when intact. Also, less likelyhood of cancer, joint and ligament issues as per a recent study done out of So-Cal. 

Have fun with your pup, join a local schutzhund or sport club you can learn more there then at any local dog training school if the club is decent.


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Curious what lines he is from, can you post a pedigree link?
> 
> Heres my opinion since everyone gets to have one ..
> 
> ...


I will post his pedigree when I get home figure all that out.. I really was more interested in the neutering part of the question than the breeding. I sort of threw that in to get opinions...which I appreciate every one!..
I do see great dogs on here no matter where they happen to come from. And I didn't say they were breed worthy, just complimenting them. I was blessed enough not to get mine from a byb but i know that doesnt qualify him to reproduce. I understand and know pups change as they get older, I am new to GSD not dogs... by the time I would even think about breeding I would do tons of research with reliable sources... I am a research Queen! (2 classes away from my MBA!)... so believe me when I tell you, IF I ever get serious about breeding, keeping him in tact, or neutering... I will be well informed of all risks and benefits out there...Thanks All 

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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Oh yeah.. another pic  10 weeks old today! Those ears keep me smiling


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

I just saw this study on Facebook last night. 759 Golden Retrievers were used in the study,and they plan to have further studies with different breeds because they don't know if the results would transfer to other breeds. 

The first 2 paragraphs...

"Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases, according to a new study of golden retrievers by a team of researchers at the University of California, Davis

The study, which examined the health records of 759 golden retrievers, found a surprising doubling of hip dysplasia among male dogs neutered before one year of age. This and other results were published Feb. 13 in the online scientific journal PLOS ONE."

and further down...
"
The study revealed that, for all five diseases analyzed, the disease rates were significantly higher in both males and females that were neutered either early or late compared with intact (non-neutered) dogs.

Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Late neutering was associated with the subsequent occurrence of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females."

Golden retriever study suggests neutering affects dog health :: UC Davis News & Information


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

FlyAway said:


> I just saw this study on Facebook last night. 759 Golden Retrievers were used in the study,and they plan to have further studies with different breeds because they don't know if the results would transfer to other breeds.
> 
> The first 2 paragraphs...
> 
> ...


Very good information! Thanks so much


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## Richter21 (May 25, 2013)

Make sure you read the study and don't just form an opinion off of a few excerpts of a post. 

With that being said, that study does have some decent validity (retrospective meta-analysis, good P values), however there are a few things that may not correlate with GSDs. 

Because I have many of the same questions as the OP regarding neutering Richter, I will have a discussion with his PCP vet and a friend who is a DVM as well. I'll probably even print out this study and present them with it.

I am early into researching evidence (not opinion) for both pro's and con's regarding neutering and if I happen to find more I will post it.


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Richter21 said:


> Make sure you read the study and don't just form an opinion off of a few excerpts of a post.
> 
> With that being said, that study does have some decent validity (retrospective meta-analysis, good P values), however there are a few things that may not correlate with GSDs.
> 
> ...


I wanted opinions of those who have made both choices to see their experience and suggestions. Like you, my ultimate decision will be evidenced based and what I think will be best for my dog. How old is Richter and which way are you leaning toward?


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Curious what lines he is from, can you post a pedigree link?


 
I think I figured it out...

AKC: Research Pedigree - 4 Generation


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I have made both decisions. I have had many dogs in my life and neutered some and left others intact. The dogs that I neutered (and spayed) lived healthy lives and I never worried about an oops litter. However, one did pass away from osteosarcoma at 13 years old. She was spayed at 5 months. I will never really know if they are connected but have considered it. I never had any intention to breed them and just enjoyed their lives as my pets. With my current dogs I have made the decision to leave intact (for now) and it is a constant thought. I have to manage them carefully. My male is very athletic and can easily jump the fence. What if a stray dog in heat comes around? I have to make sure that he is never left in the yard unsupervised. I also have a new female that I have not made the decision to spay or not. She is only 3 months old right now. I will have to closely monitor her as well, especially around my male. Its kind of a pain in the neck to think about. She might turn out to be really nice. We plan on doing IPO and she has very nice lines. I hate to make the decision yet to spay her. I have several breeder mentor friends who I am in constant contact with. One prelims all her breeding prospects as early as 16 weeks. This allows her to make a decision right a way whether to raise one up as a breeding prospect or not. I wrote all that to say that there is no right answer. As you stated, you have to make the right decision for you and your dog.


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

robk said:


> I have made both decisions. I have had many dogs in my life and neutered some and left others intact. The dogs that I neutered (and spayed) lived healthy lives and I never worried about an oops litter. However, one did pass away from osteosarcoma at 13 years old. She was spayed at 5 months. I will never really know if they are connected but have considered it. I never had any intention to breed them and just enjoyed their lives as my pets. With my current dogs I have made the decision to leave intact (for now) and it is a constant thought. I have to manage them carefully. My male is very athletic and can easily jump the fence. What if a stray dog in heat comes around? I have to make sure that he is never left in the yard unsupervised. I also have a new female that I have not made the decision to spay or not. She is only 3 months old right now. I will have to closely monitor her as well, especially around my male. Its kind of a pain in the neck to think about. She might turn out to be really nice. We plan on doing IPO and she has very nice lines. I hate to make the decision yet to spay her. I have several breeder mentor friends who I am in constant contact with. One prelims all her breeding prospects as early as 16 weeks. This allows her to make a decision right a way whether to raise one up as a breeding prospect or not. I wrote all that to say that there is no right answer. As you stated, you have to make the right decision for you and your dog.


After what I have been researching, reading, and based off me knowing what I will tolerate... I am leaning toward breeder recommendations of 12 -18 months. I want him to be healthy as possible but I also don't want him roaming... but that's not final.. just leaning that way for now. 

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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

shugarhey said:


> .............. I want him to be healthy as possible but I also don't want him roaming... but that's not final.. just leaning that way for now.


Roaming is a management issue and has nothing to do with testicles.


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## Richter21 (May 25, 2013)

Richter is 7 months now, I'm leaning more towards keeping him intact. Like I said before I'm still doing research but for the most part I see no positive evidence in early neutering and moderate evidence in favor of later neutering (18-24 months). 


Both of Richter's parents are OFA certified, Richter is going to be somewhere in the 60-70 pound range so the likelihood of him developing HD (my primary concern) is rather low, however there is still a chance. Allowing the natural maturation and fusion of the growth plates and skeletal muscle development to me is important in reducing his chances. I also believe that allowing the dog to fully maturate causes them to just look better, truly filled out and not lanky. But that's more of an early neutered dog issue (6 months and under).


For the most part pending any major behavioral issues that I can't correct with obedience training or other major medical issues he will stay as is. I frankly don't believe that neutering is an acceptable means of "behavioral manipulation or modification", **in most all cases**. This is due to anecdotal evidence that I have seen. For example, "marking", I have found does not just go away with the removal of testicles. Training your intact or neutered dog not to is how it is accomplished. Could you make an argument saying that its probably easier to complete in a neutered dog? Sure, it may be easier. But every dog is different. Sorry for the pseudo-rant. No, that's not directed at anyone here.


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Roaming is a management issue and has nothing to do with testicles.


Looking for a female in heat... I don't know how determined he would be to get to one if he could smell her. even while being watched and properly gated. I know with work and consistency he may not do it as much or at all, but I wouldn't want it to be problematic.
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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

[QUOTE
Both of Richter's parents are OFA certified, Richter is going to be somewhere in the 60-70 pound range so the likelihood of him developing HD (my primary concern) is rather low, however there is still a chance. [/QUOTE]

Apollo will be huge.. probably around 130 pounds so I definitely have to take that onto consideration. He is already a BIG boy.. I swear he grew two inches last night alone... 
He has monster paws 
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## Richter21 (May 25, 2013)

WOW look at those! Hes a good looking boy. How big are his parents?


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Richter21 said:


> WOW look at those! Hes a good looking boy. How big are his parents?


Thanks! They are the first thing that gets attention when people see him... His mom was around 90-100 pounds, his dad was 130 or so... Big, old-style, straight back shepherds breed for great temperaments. OFA, cardiac, and DM tested going generations back.


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