# German Shepherd studbook shows pure wolves used as founders of the breed?



## Germanshepherdlova

I was surfing the web today and came across this.

"It is thought by many that the *original German Shepherd studbook shows several pure wolves were used as founders of the breed*. Captain Max von Stephanitz, in his quest to produce the perfect working dog, used European herding dogs, including *his favourite dog Horand von Grafrath, previously named named Hektor Linksrhein, who was allegedly one-quarter wolf. * *All GSD's can be traced back to Hektor.* In the 1900's von Stephanitz wrote a book “The German Shepherd in Word and Picture”, in it he requested that breeders no longer include pure wolves in their breeding programs. (In subsequent reprints, all references to wolves were removed)." 

The above is a copy and paste from this source-Wolfdogs - Snowdog

I was under the impression that GSD's did not have wolf blood-but then many refer to them as the wolf dog which is the reason why I looked into this. Do you agree or disagree with the GSD being part wolf?


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## Freestep

From what I have read, there were allegations of wolf crosses, but who knows? Basically, Stephanitz said he didn't want any wolf blood (or any more wolf blood) to be introduced into the gene pool.

Some breeders of wolf hybrids like to use this little snippet to justify their own shenanigans. As if to say, "See, even the German Shepherd, which everyone loves, is part wolf, so why shouldn't we breed wolfdogs too?" 

People have since crossed GSDs and wolves under different breed names... Sarloos Wolfhound, Czech wolfdog, etc. The idea was to bring in hardier health genetics, but these dogs are reportedly useless for any kind of serious work due to their nervous and unpredictable temperaments.


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## ChristenHolden

HMMMMmm Very Interesting!! I like it.


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## Germanshepherdlova

A couple weeks ago my son watched a National Geographic program about wolves and he called me and said-Brutus looks just like a wolf on this show. Then he told me-I knew that dog had wolf in him. After reading this I am inclined to believe that is true. There is a picture on that link of a dog that is half wolf and half GSD-he is beautiful, and looks exactly like many sable GSD's that I have seen-there is almost no difference from what I can see.


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## nitemares

GSDs were are called wolf dogs here in Egypt to this day. Maybe there's reason why. When I was younger, much younger, I always thought that GSDs were originally domesticated wolves.


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## Mrs.K

As far as I remember, they have tried to cross wolves in but those dogs were so unpredictable that they couldn't use them so they pretty much disregarded that part of the breeding.


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## NancyJ

I recall a huge mitochondrial DNA study a few years back showing pugs are more closely related to wolves than GSDs. Mitochondrial DNA would only catch the mother line though.

I know the only references I saw were to one of the parents of Horand v Grafrath (sp?) being part wolf but I don't know enough about that. If so it was certainly very far back.


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## hattifattener

nitemares said:


> GSDs were are called wolf dogs here in Egypt to this day.


yep,it's common name for this breed in LV either.
wolfdog.
but it just describes their appearance,i think.


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## martemchik

I'm from Latvia and have never heard wolfdog. Still have family there and I believe the popular term is "ovcharka" lol. But I might be wrong. The Nova: Dogs Decoded special compared the skulls of the wolf and the GSD and they were very similar compared to a wolf and a terrier, but that's clear to anyone that looks at them. Maybe originally there was wolf in there, but that is thousands of generations ago so I wouldn't even consider it relevant. Just looking at the size of a wolf and a GSD its pretty easy to dismiss any considerable amount of wolf in our dogs today.


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## hattifattener

martemchik said:


> I'm from Latvia and have never heard wolfdog. Still have family there and I believe the popular term is "ovcharka" lol. But I might be wrong. The Nova: Dogs Decoded special compared the skulls of the wolf and the GSD and they were very similar compared to a wolf and a terrier, but that's clear to anyone that looks at them. Maybe originally there was wolf in there, but that is thousands of generations ago so I wouldn't even consider it relevant. Just looking at the size of a wolf and a GSD its pretty easy to dismiss any considerable amount of wolf in our dogs today.


hey!!! 
but "ovcharka" or "nemetskaya ovcharka" is Russian name.
Latvian is "vilku suns".


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## martemchik

hattifattener said:


> hey!!!
> but "ovcharka" or "nemetskaya ovcharka" is Russian name.
> Latvian is "vilku suns".


Haha, I will eat my words then. My family is Russian but I do understand some Latvian especially when the words are that close to each other. And yeah I guess that is wolf dog, but I believe its because of the looks and nothing else. There are only a few dogs out there that truly look like wolves.


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## carmspack

my friend who immigrated to Canada from Czech was a k9 trainer with Pohranicni Straze . He was proud to show me his little cabin where his family was housed, his kennel set up for his personal dog , and immediately behind the house a set of kennels for the wolf-dog experiments . He said they had lots of instinct (prey) but would not confront or take on active aggression . They avoided the fight -- . Project did not work because the wolf dogs did not do well with repetition in obedience training , and were largely very shy , to spooky .

The GSD on the Canine Genome study , in spite of historically recent introduction of a wolf gene -- Phylax Society 1880's -- showed very little, minimal wolf genes , and was grouped with its genomic family which was the "mastiff type" as in the droving dogs that the Romans brought into Britain . ---- the Border Collie showed a high percentage of wolf genes.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Courtney

carmspack said:


> my friend who immigrated to Canada from Czech was a k9 trainer with Pohranicni Straze . He was proud to show me his little cabin where his family was housed, his kennel set up for his personal dog , and immediately behind the house a set of kennels for the wolf-dog experiments . He said they had lots of instinct (prey) but would not confront or take on active aggression . They avoided the fight -- . Project did not work because the wolf dogs did not do well with repetition in obedience training , and were largely very shy , to spooky .
> 
> The GSD on the Canine Genome study , in spite of historically recent introduction of a wolf gene -- Phylax Society 1880's -- showed very little, minimal wolf genes , and was grouped with its genomic family which was the "mastiff type" as in the droving dogs that the Romans brought into Britain . ---- the Border Collie showed a high percentage of wolf genes.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I found this thread interesting and was hoping you would comment!


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## Annolyn

This thread is interesting. I was always under the impression that the herding breeds were of closer relation to wolves than any other group. Here in Israel, GSDs are commonly referred to as wolf dogs... which confused me greatly at first because I thought people were actually talking about hybrids... and I couldn't figure out how Israel was ending up with wolf hybrids with such a tiny wolf population... anyway... I have often enjoyed the look of GSDs because of my affinity for wolves.


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## Germanshepherdlova

martemchik said:


> I'm from Latvia and have never heard wolfdog. Still have family there and I believe the popular term is "ovcharka" lol. But I might be wrong. The Nova: Dogs Decoded special compared the skulls of the wolf and the GSD and they were very similar compared to a wolf and a terrier, but that's clear to anyone that looks at them. Maybe originally there was wolf in there, but that is thousands of generations ago so I wouldn't even consider it relevant. *Just looking at the size of a wolf and a GSD its pretty easy to dismiss any considerable amount of wolf in our dogs today.*


I don't agree with this the average weight of a grey wolf is 70-130 lbs. Many GSD's are in this same weight range-mine weighs 119. The North American wolf weight averages about 80 lbs.


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## NancyJ

I know the studies that put the GSDs into the Mastiff family were from mitochondrial DNA studies which would only reflect the motherline. It does not seem a surprise when you look at some of the ancestral guarding breeds that were brought into make the GSD (like the Hovawart etc that are molossers) that this is what would be found.

Was a comparable study done based on only the y-chromosome? .


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## selzer

GSDs were specifically designed to herd and guard sheep. Wolves were naturally designed to herd and kill and eat sheep. A GSD would have been necessary to guard the sheep from wolves. It really does not make sense to pump new wolf blood into herding dogs because of the tendency to kill rather than to herd/protect. Yes, thousands of years ago men domesticated wolves because of their practice of herding game (in order to kill it). But, they spent over a thousand years breeding away from the killing, while trying to maintain the herding instinct. 

Now, I read the captain's book, and was pretty amazed at the depth of his knowledge about the dogs of the region. I would be very surprised if he EVER introduced wolf blood into the breed he was creating, even as an experiment. And I really have a hard time believing shepherds would want to encourage matings between wolves and dogs. Just hard to get a picture of that. 

Wolves were not as well tolerated then as now. Hans Christian Anderson, and Grimm were quite unkind to wolves. They had a bounty on their heads, they were considered baby-killers. I just find it terribly hard to believe. 

I would believe that wolf-dog fanciers would WANT to make a connection between one of the world's most popular dog breed's and recent wolf blood, whether it is true or not.


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## Germanshepherdlova

selzer said:


> GSDs were specifically designed to herd and guard sheep. Wolves were naturally designed to herd and kill and eat sheep. A GSD would have been necessary to guard the sheep from wolves. It really does not make sense to pump new wolf blood into herding dogs because of the tendency to kill rather than to herd/protect. Yes, thousands of years ago men domesticated wolves because of their practice of herding game (in order to kill it). But, they spent over a thousand years breeding away from the killing, while trying to maintain the herding instinct.
> 
> Now, I read the captain's book, and was pretty amazed at the depth of his knowledge about the dogs of the region. I would be very surprised if he EVER introduced wolf blood into the breed he was creating, even as an experiment. And I really have a hard time believing shepherds would want to encourage matings between wolves and dogs. Just hard to get a picture of that.
> 
> Wolves were not as well tolerated then as now. Hans Christian Anderson, and Grimm were quite unkind to wolves. They had a bounty on their heads, they were considered baby-killers. I just find it terribly hard to believe.
> 
> I would believe that wolf-dog fanciers would WANT to make a connection between one of the world's most popular dog breed's and recent wolf blood, whether it is true or not.


All GSD's can be traced by to Hektor and that is all I am going to say.


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## pets4life

Annolyn said:


> This thread is interesting. I was always under the impression that the herding breeds were of closer relation to wolves than any other group. Here in Israel, GSDs are commonly referred to as wolf dogs... which confused me greatly at first because I thought people were actually talking about hybrids... and I couldn't figure out how Israel was ending up with wolf hybrids with such a tiny wolf population... anyway... I have often enjoyed the look of GSDs because of my affinity for wolves.



they call them wolf dogs because they look kinda like wolves specially the sable ones

wolves would love to eat what good shepherds herd and protect they are very predatory wild animals and do not control their prey drive the way our well bred shepherds do


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## Liesje

I would not assume that a GSD *looking* the same means closely related to wolves. There are several breeds of dogs intentionally created to LOOK like a wolf but were not created using wolves. It is quite possible to do. Look up Tamaskan, Utonagan, Northern Inuit for starters....


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## ladyfreckles

Speaking of Tamaskans, I thought I read something not too long ago about them becoming a BYB trend in America. There were people who brought over Tamaskans from Finland and sell them as a "choose your puppy" kind of thing without caring where the puppies went. Does anyone know if this is true? I love Tamaskans, it's just too bad they're not more common. They do AMAZING in agility competitions. :wub:


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## Liesje

I've never seen one but unfortunately I would not doubt that.


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## TheActuary

All dogs are descended from the gray wolf.


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## lorihd

yes actuary, they just had a program on nova or something about all dogs are decendents from wolves, very interesting


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## Germanshepherdlova

All dogs descended from wolves so I hear. Check this link there have been studies done of dogs DNA and you may be surprised with the results. 2. Canid Genetics


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## pets4life

dogs came from wolves 13 thousand years ago a lot has changed since then they change the species latin name


humans use dogs to protect sheep from wolves.. they use dogs to hunt wolves not that i agree with the hunting but we have created a very diff animal 

if you go to a wolf park you will see that a wolf is nothing like our gsds the noise they make will suprise you the way act etc.. 

they are beautiful animals but NOT SOMETHING id want to keep in my house! they belong in the woods hunting moose and deer away from humans and dogs.

a husky or northern sled dogs are probably more close to wolves since they howl like one at least and act like them more a gsd acts nothing like a wolf


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## Germanshepherdlova

pets4life said:


> dogs came from wolves 13 thousand years ago a lot has changed since then they change the species latin name
> 
> 
> humans use dogs to protect sheep from wolves.. they use dogs to hunt wolves not that i agree with the hunting but we have created a very diff animal
> 
> if you go to a wolf park you will see that a wolf is nothing like our gsds the noise they make will suprise you the way act etc..
> 
> they are beautiful animals but NOT SOMETHING id want to keep in my house! they belong in the woods hunting moose and deer away from humans and dogs.
> 
> a husky or northern sled dogs are probably more close to wolves since they howl like one at least and act like them more a gsd acts nothing like a wolf


You should hear my sisters Doberman-he howls, scared the heck out of me the first time I heard it!


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## matthewm11

I too have read that early editions of Von Stephanitz book had references to wolfdogs being used in his breeding program to create GSD, if this is true it was likely a very small percentage made it into the final product. stephanitz goal was to create the ultimate herding/all purpose work dog and took this very seriously. He wouldnt try adding wolfdogs into the mix just to make some cool looking animals (which seems th be wolfdog breeders intentions these days) I suppose that maybe a very small amount of wolf blood could maybe increase herding instinct, but this seems unlikely. Also, it couldn't have been easy to procur wolves in turn of the century Germany. I guess

A lot of people hear this argument and dismiss it with the statement "well all dogs are descended from wolves" Many scientologists are starting to rethink this claim and a large percentage believe that wolves and dogs are sister species who split recently from a shares ancestor- likely a dingo like generalist who lived alone and was a scavenger. When the canines moved to colder climates with bigger prey- the canines evolved to be bigger, have thick double coats and learned to live and hunt communally and thus the wolf was born.

Even if thats not true and dogs are directly descended from grey wolves, they are not descended from the pack-hunting big wolves of the north we think of when we think wolf. Southern grey wolves, like the Indian and Arabian wolf are smaller, have less fur and are less pack oriented. They mostly scavenge. Interestingly the Egyptian Jackel- long thought to be a subspecies of the Golden Jackel, has turned out to be yet another gray wolf subspecies. Do to what I believe scientists refer to as a wolf's slippery genone" this species can mutate ver quickly and this explains not only thr vast differences seen in wolf subspecies but also the diffetences in dogs

So in my opinion there might be some breeds that wolf bred into them at some point, and this would make them "closer to the wolf" than other breeds. As for the GSD, I am undecided since there is so much conflicting data, but will concede that Von Stephanitz himself writing about uding wolfdogs in his breeding program is strong evidence of this IMzo


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## Draugr

I call shenanigans.

As far as I can tell the whole "GSDs were bred from wolves" rumor began with Tina Barber (founder of Shiloh Shepherd breed). Any info I can find on this is pretty much traced back to her. She claims there was a cover-up and only the first editions of his book say that a _she_-wolf was used in the breeding program. How convenient (for her). Regardless I don't see this as anything other than a slightly unusual spin on the GSD breed bashing that seems unfortunately all too common.

Given what Von Stephanitz has written about using wolves in dog breeding programs, I find it completely ludicrous that people even take this seriously. The wolf has _nothing_ to offer the domestic dog. Von Stephanitz knew this, wrote about it, etc. He didn't want wolf blood sullying his breed. The very idea is just...insanely stupid to me. We took the wolf, domesticated it so it could live alongside humans, and bred specific traits. Why on earth would we want to work _backwards_? Even with the make-a-quick-buck wolf-dog puppy scams (usually just mixes of GSDs and/or northern breeds), I mean, we're talking about a completely separate thing than the founding of an entire breed.

Wolves are beautiful creatures and unique in their own right, but if you've ever had the chance to stand side by side with one - they are absolutely nothing like a GSD. The difference is night and day.

~

As far as Tamaskans - gorgeous dogs, but, there's a lot of secrecy surrounding their origins and and a lot of cloak-and-dagger stuff the breed clubs are engaging in. There's a splinter registry, or something like that, claiming to have run a DNA test to validate their claims - that wolves or wolf-dogs were used to found the breed. And the original still adamantly denying such claims, and refusing to offer any proof as to what dogs were used to found the breed.

Really, though, it doesn't matter much to me. After a few generations of breeding for specific, domesticated traits, you're going to lose the wolf blood pretty rapidly. What does matter to me is all the secrecy and bickering. That's a turn-off.

~

Also, speaking of domestication:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120123152528.htm

Looks like the dog has been around a LOT longer than we thought. Pretty cool. 33,000 years, at least! Now, no ancestors of this domesticated dog have survived into the modern age, but, it's pretty mindboggling how long humans and dogs have been together.


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## matthewm11

I too have read that early editions of Von Stephanitz book had references to wolfdogs being used in his breeding program to create GSD, if this is true it was likely a very small percentage made it into the final product. stephanitz goal was to create the ultimate herding/all purpose work dog and took this very seriously. He wouldnt try adding wolfdogs into the mix just to make some cool looking animals (which seems th be wolfdog breeders intentions these days) I suppose that maybe a very small amount of wolf blood could maybe increase herding instinct, but this seems unlikely. Also, it couldn't have been easy to procur wolves in turn of the century Germany. I guess

A lot of people hear this argument and dismiss it with the statement "well all dogs are descended from wolves" Many scientologists are starting to rethink this claim and a large percentage believe that wolves and dogs are sister species who split recently from a shares ancestor- likely a dingo like generalist who lived alone and was a scavenger. When the canines moved to colder climates with bigger prey- the canines evolved to be bigger, have thick double coats and learned to live and hunt communally and thus the wolf was born.

Even if thats not true and dogs are directly descended from grey wolves, they are not descended from the pack-hunting big wolves of the north we think of when we think wolf. Southern grey wolves, like the Indian and Arabian wolf are smaller, have less fur and are less pack oriented. They mostly scavenge. Interestingly the Egyptian Jackel- long thought to be a subspecies of the Golden Jackel, has turned out to be yet another gray wolf subspecies. Do to what I believe scientists refer to as a wolf's slippery genone" this species can mutate ver quickly and this explains not only thr vast differences seen in wolf subspecies but also the diffetences in dogs

So in my opinion there might be some breeds that wolf bred into them at some point, and this would make them "closer to the wolf" than other breeds. As for the GSD, I am undecided since there is so much conflicting data, but will concede that Von Stephanitz himself writing about uding wolfdogs in his breeding program is strong evidence of this IMzo


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## matthewm11

I have read the Tina Barber article she wrote about GSDs being wolfdogs (and she implies that "the truth" has been covered up) German Shepherds were bred for a specific purpose and Stephanitz would only breed dogs with exceptional herding/working, not something wolves are known for. In the article she mentions thuringian shepherds, a herding landrace used in that region and used to create the GSD. I believe Hector was a thuringian shrpherd. These dogs do look wolfy, and she implies the locals had been breeding their dogs with wolves for years. Why would a farmer want a herding dog mixed with wolf that could kill the livestock he depends on? Unless there is some advantage of adding a small amount of wolf to dogs for herding purposes I am skeptical of the whole issue


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## cliffson1

Of the dogs the Capt. used for putting together the breed, (Swabian,Wurtemmberg, Thuringian), the Thuringian was used as much for protection as herding. They were sharp dog that were quick to bite....yet the Capt. put a healthy dose of these dogs into the mix. Primarily because the breed was created to be a utlity dog capable of police/military work in ADDITION to herding work. Many people have this twisted to fit what they want the dog to be.


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## matthewm11

*btw*

In my post re: domestication, I meant to say scientists, not scientologists (lol!) Sorry, I was half asleep when I posted that, hence the typos


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