# Wow!!



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I've never really understood what people were referring to when they talked about the issues in Sch. titling these days and the huge differences in actual bitework from the dogs carrying the same titles. This was posted in another forum, but man! Ok, I get it now...

First vid is kinda long, so feel free to skim through...





 


WHOA!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

so now you get it!


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> so now you get it!


Lol, you'd have to be blind not to see the difference in that!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sad, isn't it?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

2:13 and on in this clip....another WOW(well the whole thing actually)!


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Sad, isn't it?


Sad is the exact word I thought of while watching the first video. The second one is thrilling and motivating!


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

So, i am trying to understand Schutzhund better because eventually I would like to participate in it. What happened here? Seems like the dogs in the first video sort of cower a bit while walking "Fuss" and obviously the last one was intimated by the task? Love the power of the dog taking that sleeve off but I guess that is not supposed to happen, right. Sorry, I know stupid questions but I really want to learn more.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Vasco Vikar -- BEAUTY !!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

did you notice the 3rd dog's handler kept covering the dog's eyes ?
nothing to worry about boy -- don't worry


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I know absolutely nothing about Schutzhund but, WOW, the second video is amazing. 

Third video? I felt embarrassed for the poor dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

What happened there is that the dogs are completely unsuited for this type of work lacking drive and fight drive, and the owners and judge only make the dogs go through the motions as it is a part of earning their V rating in the German show system.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I just had to watch all the video's from the second dog after that. I mean, I would be nervous being on the inside of that sleeve! On the first video, it seemed like the dog's were just being told what to do and the handler was almost giving them the sleeve - like here, take it, take it, and seemed to almost trip over the dogs trying to give them the sleeve. The second video the dog comes at him like a BEAST! Loved it! Watched it probably 10 times!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yes, and these are supposed to be the best of the best representation? Vasco's other videos show his great obedience/biddability along with his powerful biting.
The SL vids have no obedience on them whatsoever! I don't understand why they trial and can't even fuss their dog. NOT knocking SL's~ just the style of trialing(and training) is lacking seriously.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> What happened there is that the dogs are completely unsuited for this type of work lacking drive and fight drive, and the owners and judge only make the dogs go through the motions as it is a part of earning their V rating in the German show system.


What is the point of that? It's like grade inflation for dogs.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> What happened there is that the dogs are completely unsuited for this type of work lacking drive and fight drive, and the owners and judge only make the dogs go through the motions as it is a part of earning their V rating in the German show system.


Yeah, it looked different from the other Schutzhund videos I had seen, especially the dog that got distracted and sort of just wandered around. It was like some of them were not motivated at all. Is prey drive determined at puppy age? 

Thanks for the explanation, Castlemaid.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Excuse my ignorance, but is Vikar the name of a kennel?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yes, Czech http://www.glisnik.com/index.php?lang=en
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeders/3655.html


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Yes, Czech Hlavní strana | Vít Glisník, sportovní kynologie


I was noticing there are quite a few videos of dogs from that kennel on YouTube and they all seem to have a lot of enthusiasm for what they're doing.

I can picture Shasta doing this sort of thing but _I'm_ lacking the enthusiasm for it.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Amazing dog. I saw another like him during a trial video, and I tried my hardest but could not find it again. Silly question, but how the HECK do you get your dog to stay so focused and glued to your side like that?? I'm going to try to find the video of the other dog I saw, but I'm assuming it's part training and mostly drive and temperament?


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I don't really get why people would even compete with dogs such as the ones in two of the videos posted.. Seriously, if my dog lacked the drive to work, I'd be utterly embarrassed to complete with him! However, if bite sleeves were made purely of tennis balls no force in **** or on earth could pry my dog's mouth from the sleeve  hehehehe.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

e.rigby said:


> However, if bite sleeves were made purely of tennis balls no force in **** or on earth could pry my dog's mouth from the sleeve  hehehehe.


:rofl:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lakl look at the video of Vasco in obedience again. Handler corrects him several times (left leg) for crowding/interference . One spot where he clips the dog under the chin several times because the dog was too pushy. Notice that the dog is performing for the ball. The split second the exercise is finished , out pops the ball (right hand) . One exercise is comes out of his pocket.

Focus delevoped through ball play reward .

Dog is intense . Good trial preparation.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I was going to ask what lines Vasco was from, but Jane already answered it. He ivery handsome. And he FLEW!

I am looking into doing into Sch for fun, but not sure if I will have time to do it. But it won't be for a long time.lol


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Focus delevoped through ball play reward .


I've been using a ball to help keep Virgil engaged while training. We have had to go back to square one because he can't think when he sees the ball; but today he was doing fairly well heeling -- I had the ball tucked under my left armpit. About halfway through the heel he leapt up to where the ball was and about took me down to get it! 

So Virgil and food = more brain less drive. Virgil with ball = more drive, less brain


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Lakl look at the video of Vasco in obedience again. Handler corrects him several times (left leg) for crowding/interference . One spot where he clips the dog under the chin several times because the dog was too pushy. Notice that the dog is performing for the ball. The split second the exercise is finished , out pops the ball (right hand) . One exercise is comes out of his pocket.
> 
> Focus delevoped through ball play reward .
> 
> ...


Ahhhh...that's amazing! I was wondering why he kept clipping him under the chin and I did notice the ball, but I thought, no way could he be that focused for the ball! Lol. I wish I had somewhere locally where I could go to watch people working with their dog's like this!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Is there a schutzhund club in your area? Would be worth checking them out.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Is there a schutzhund club in your area? Would be worth checking them out.


There are no clubs in my area! I did find a GSD club about an hour from me, but have yet to get an inquiry response from them and the contact number is no longer in service.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

"area" can mean a 3 hour drive! There are good training clubs and ones that I wouldn't go to within a few minutes drive.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

e.rigby said:


> I don't really get why people would even compete with dogs such as the ones in two of the videos posted..


Because the work is just a necessary evil in order to get to the conformation, which is what is what the goal is in most of the SL breeders and competitors. I have a SL male that is now 22 mos old. He is a love and is also a very confident dog overall, but he doesn't really "get" work(obedience or bitework but he is a great tracking dog). Anyway, I have learned a lot working him and feel I better understand the SL temperament but I will never trial him, it is just no fun and not rewarding at all. My daughter has his littermate who has more drive and is a bit more tight(the SL dogs always look so cumbersome and mushy when working) and is a good dog for a beginner. 
My 7 mos old WL female is already light years past the SL male in obedience and while we haven't done true protection work, it is obvious that she will revel in bitework when she gets her chance at the sleeve!

Annette


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Lakl said:


> There are no clubs in my area! I did find a GSD club about an hour from me, but have yet to get an inquiry response from them and the contact number is no longer in service.


Go to an AKC obedience club. More and more of them are training with toy rewards too.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

carmspack said:


> did you notice the 3rd dog's handler kept covering the dog's eyes ?
> nothing to worry about boy -- don't worry


At one point the same dog cowered.  You have to wonder, when does trying to build confidence become just plain torture for the dog?

When you belong to a club are most members usually honest about telling other members that their dog really shouldn't be doing bitework? Seems like they should.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

That first dog is ginormous! Looks like a bear.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Whiteshepherds said:


> When you belong to a club are most members usually honest about telling other members that their dog really shouldn't be doing bitework? Seems like they should.


Our TD will flat out tell you if your dog doesn't have it. Not worth wasting time or money on a dog if the dog is not the right temperament. It isn't fair to the dog,either.
He just told a visitor yesterday that he would not work his dog in protection. The dog was clearly fear aggressive and the owner summed it up as defensive/protective....after watching our group doing obedience, then protection he got a better understanding of what the dog should bring(and how the handler works with the dog to build drive and cap it)
TD did give him a couple of names of breeders with pups on the ground, wonder if we'll see him back?


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## GSDOWNED (Mar 16, 2010)

I love both WL & WGSL but here's WGSL that impresses me. He was VA2 at the 2010 USA Sieger Show.

vonschneidenfels's Channel - YouTube


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Whining at the helper isn't what I'd call power. 
I wonder how he was if the sleeve was slipped, hectic and thrashing or calm hold.

I train with a couple of SL's( from Alta-Tollhaus) and they are very impressive...and what I'd consider 'real' when threatened or have pressure placed on them. I think much of this has to do with their genetics and lots to do with the way they have been worked.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jane, when you say real, do you mean responding out of natural drives rather than just because it's been trained to respond a certain way?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs that don't just go thru the motions to go thru the motions. Dogs that have been challenged with some pressure put on them and in real life situations will discern their reactions, respond if necessary. 
That is real, IMO. Part is training, part is what is in their heart, genetics.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Dogs that don't just go thru the motions to go thru the motions. Dogs that have been challenged with some pressure put on them and in real life situations will discern their reactions, respond if necessary.
> That is real, IMO. Part is training, part is what is in their heart, genetics.


Got it, thanks.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I don't know Schutzhund, but I watched these videos and they sort of eased my mind about Havoc. He's male, WGSL and eight months old. I consider him to be the mellowest, softest dog that I've ever owned. I wanted a smart, gentle boy but sometimes I've been concerned by his laid-back ness. I'm not any more, he's more enthusiastic about his flirt pole and sprinklers than some of these dogs are about bitework.

Schutzhund and agility are not in the cards for Havoc. I think that he'll be a wonderful therapy dog. We may look into nosework for fun.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog has some attitude , lots of prey , thrashing in the bite work , which is when the video gets cut . The bark had little intensity . I noticed the whining too ! Like begging .

However that being said - we see the dog as a result of his training also . He may have only been trained in prey mode . All sleeve . 

The good thing is he looks forward to it --- you can see him walking away , tail going , swinging around rapidly to reload . He wants to do it . He goes into the decoy with speed . 
His nerves appear good . He demonstrates trainability . 

He is better than the majority of WGSL dogs we've seen recently -- you have to start somewhere . Some potential with this one.

Wonder what Robin has to say. - for me for the group he represents , based on the youtubey , thumbs up.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

I train every weekend with the dog at 5:35 in this clip, in fact he received the bitework award at NASS in 2010. He is an amazing dog, can be worked on any helper and actually LOVES the stick hits...in fact, he lives for them...the harder the better. 

Unfortunately, it looks bad (and is bad) for all show lines when you see the other dogs perform (or not perform) the way that they do...but, it is important to recognize that there are SOME show line breeders that are producing the right temperament, drives and working ability! 




onyx'girl said:


> 2:13 and on in this clip....another WOW(well the whole thing actually)!
> Part 4 2010 NASS Bite Work Males - YouTube


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RE: Carmspack
that and his obedience was decent...he had some self control(but that could be attributed to drive level) I didn't see any stick hits in the clips, just showing the motion.
One thing that I see, if this is a video to 'sell' the dog as a stud, I don't know that it shows what he is really all about?


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

This video is a bit more refreshing  The power of the dogs in it is amazing!

israeldogs- Great dog attacks - YouTube


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you get what you breed for -- the Israeli youtube dogs were bred for fight drive -- that is out of the purview of show line breeders of any breed, GSD, Rottweiler, Dobemann - it is the element most neglected in GSD working lines as well, as most breeding is done with prey drive as the focus. 
In GSD there are family lines - two of the four founding regional types that bring fight drive in. 
Show lines are not built on this at all -- their heritage is prey .
It is going to be near impossible to get this intensity and drive to dominant , control the situation from a show line . Just not in the blood.

The dogs seen in the video come from a culture where a dog is a dog , and respected for it, not a baby or couch cuddle bug . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## S19977 (Feb 19, 2011)

Lakl said:


> I've never really understood what people were referring to when they talked about the issues in Sch. titling these days and the huge differences in actual bitework from the dogs carrying the same titles. This was posted in another forum, but man! Ok, I get it now...
> 
> First vid is kinda long, so feel free to skim through...
> 
> ...


 
That 2nd video is awesome!!!! I feel like punching a brick wall after seeing that. WOO!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Well... one of the dogs in the first video happens to be a dog named Teejay Von Wilhendorf.
That dog went on to win 4 titles, and has graced the covers of many magazines.
I was with TeeJay, and saw some of his training, and I can tell you, everybody that knows that dog, thinks he's amazing.

I try not to believe everything I read and see on the internet. But many of these dogs were not gifted with the knowledge to win a Shutzhund. They were trained. Some have it in them, and some don't.

Some of those could have just gotten started in training.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Anthony8858 said:


> Some of those could have just gotten started in training.


No, those dogs didn't just get started. The videos were from NASS, those dogs are supposedly schutzhund titled!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Anthony8858 said:


> I try not to believe everything I read and see on the internet. But many of these dogs were not gifted with the knowledge to win a Shutzhund. They were trained. Some have it in them, and some don't.


That's the whole point of training and titling - to identify the dogs that do have "it" in them and find the dogs that have the correct drives and proper courage and aggression to add to a breeding program - to preserve the working traits of the GSD. 

But in show lines, people forget about this point (not always, there are some good showlines out there), and they just have the dogs go through the motions as good enough so that they can say the dog has earned titles and is now breedworthy.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> That's the whole point of training and titling - to identify the dogs that do have "it" in them and find the dogs that have the correct drives and proper courage and aggression to add to a breeding program - to preserve the working traits of the GSD.
> 
> But in show lines, people forget about this point (not always, there are some good showlines out there), and they just have the dogs go through the motions as good enough so that they can say the dog has earned titles and is now breedworthy.


:thumbup::thumbup:

Really a newbie to all this and own 2 Showlines myself, but it seems to me if the titling, judging, and process itself has become watered down, then it becomes more and more difficult to wade through the sea of titles and find dogs that are truly breed worthy and a credit to the breed. Especially for less experienced people like myself.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> That's the whole point of training and titling - to identify the dogs that do have "it" in them and find the dogs that have the correct drives and proper courage and aggression to add to a breeding program - to preserve the working traits of the GSD.
> 
> But in show lines, people forget about this point (not always, there are some good showlines out there), and they just have the dogs go through the motions as good enough so that they can say the dog has earned titles and is now breedworthy.


Unfortunately, that's in a perfect world.
Too bad many titles are motivated by money. A titled sire is worth a heck of a lot more than a "real nice GSD".
I won't get into it too much, but I know of a "titled stud" who's owners were just offered upwards of $400,000 for the purchase of the dog.
SO I can why some people want their dogs ranked and titled, regardless of what you or I think about their ability.
It seems like another twist, instead of the overbreeding of years ago.....now it's "Over-titling".


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

And these are reputable breeders????? Does anyone care about the image and reality of the breed??????


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Stumbled across this video posted on another forum today and felt like I had to come back and add it to this thread.

Another WOW for me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

That Sl dog is very impressive in intensity and approach. He also has nice structure. I think it's worth noting that I'm pretty sure that he is a Czech or Slovak dog. Breeders from these countries place a premium on working temperament. Nice dog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think the name Hartis Bohemia betrays that dog!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Lakl said:


> Stumbled across this video posted on another forum today and felt like I had to come back and add it to this thread.
> 
> Another WOW for me.



That is SO going to be Hans. 

I actually have a command when he jumps up and grabs my arm: "NO SCHUTZHUND!" :rofl:
I see these dogs and think it would be a shame not to have him do that. 
Here is his dad in action.


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