# Police shoot another dog- how on earth are we supposed to protect our dogs?



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

This is so sad and tragic. These stories are really starting to make me think. HOW are we supposed to protect are dogs? The cop had the wrong house. The dog was on a chain outside so the officer could have gotten out of the dogs reach yet he shot him. Horrible. 


Eldorado Man Accuses Police of Killing Dog | WSILTV | Local News


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I think maybe I will post a sign on my front/back door "Dear Officer Please do not shoot my dogs".


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I figure the officer panicked so bad that he didnt realize that the dog was chained and just shot him. Probably just that simple. Just sad, sad, sad.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm going to be sick


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Short story but its rediculous. Why is a police officer in the back of the house in the first place? What's wrong with the front door? I'd understand if you have your dog tied out in the front yard that something could happen, but isn't it reasonable to expect that a police officer won't be knocking on the back door? Then...why would you go into the back yard when you see a dog on a tie out there?

Now...if the yard isn't fenced, and say there is an alley back there and your dog comes dangerously close to the alley on the tie out, I question the owner. If say when the chain is fully extended the dog is 5 ft or less away from the alley, what would a regular person do if they were just walking by and this dog comes charging at them? You don't notice the chain and you think it's going to get you? Or what if that 1 out of 1000 times the tie out comes out of the ground?

Although I think shooting the dog is an over reaction...I'd like to know more facts of what actually happened.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I am getting tired of reading about innocent dogs getting shot. There should be some kind of training for police in how to deal with dogs on private property. And if there already is some kind of protocol, it needs to be re addressed. This case really is a tragedy. I can try to understand how during a high stress situation bad things can happen, but this was over a STOLEN LADDER!!!! Give me a break....


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

In light of all these "cops shot my dog" stories I will be going to Wally World later today to get several "beware of dogs" signs to hang on my fences.......doubt it would make a huge difference, but at least any cop who entered my yard couldnt say they didnt know dogs were here.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

kiya said:


> I think maybe I will post a sign on my front/back door "Dear Officer Please do not shoot my dogs".


This^^^


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

kiya said:


> I think maybe I will post a sign on my front/back door "Dear Officer Please do not shoot my dogs".



Not a bad idea.

This just seems to be getting out of hand. Maybe officers need better training. This story and the last one are just plain ridiculous in the way the dogs got shot, IMO. The dogs were on THEIR property and should have been safe and were shot anyway, when the police showed up unannounced. In this case the homeowner's never even knew the cop was coming. The cop had the wrong address entirely. I understand that mistakes happen but it shouldn't have cost that dog his life.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> In light of all these "cops shot my dog" stories I will be going to Wally World later today to get several "beware of dogs" signs to hang on my fences.......doubt it would make a huge difference, but at least any cop who entered my yard couldnt say they didnt know dogs were here.


Think about a 'Dog on Premises' sign instead. "Beware' sets it up for a preconceived idea that there is a dangerous dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> Maybe officers need better training.


Yes, and how about better screening? The news story says the officer had been with the force less than a year, but who cares! If you're walking around with a gun, and you can go where you want, when you want, and shoot at whatever you want, I think it's disgusting that the person can be so gutless that they "fear for their life" when they're confronted by a dog that's chained up.

I'm not bashing LE, I have relatives who chose that career path, so I'm not blaming them. But are the pickings so slim these days for recruits that they have to allow any wimp to join? I know society's going down the toilet, but this is a terrible indication of times to come.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Twyla said:


> Think about a 'Dog on Premises' sign instead. "Beware' sets it up for a preconceived idea that there is a dangerous dog.


I havent seen a "dog on premises" sign, I'll look for that wording. Thanks.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> I havent seen a "dog on premises" sign, I'll look for that wording. Thanks.


I found them at PetSmart.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Good idea, Twyla! We had custom signs made that read, 'German Shepherd on Premises' & 'German Shepherd Lives Here'.

I was "hoping" the Eldorado part meant it was right up the road - I would've been driving up the hill tonight after work. Unfortunately, WSIL TV is out of IL.

THIS cop-shoots-dog story REALLY ticks me off...


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Ooohhhh. I LIKE the "German Shepherd Lives Here" idea. I may have to get a couple of those made.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

You can custom make signs online for cheap!

Just asked the BF if they are trained on how to treat dogs in the academy. He said they just spent three days on family violence from 8am-5pm. Next three days deal with child molestors and the next week is spent on how to not get killed (safety precautions, how to enter homes, how to calm someone down). He said dogs are not a priority in the academy, they are learning how to save human lives instead and stay alive themselves. They did get to see some cool drug dogs though, and the k9 officers are revered there. He said the professor said that if they want to learn about dogs than to join animal control. And he said he is not asking any more questions for me since the prof made him look like an idiot for that one lol


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Thanks for trying a thread like this again Debbi. After that last thread....

I hope the LEO will jump in with information. What do they want to see when they arrive at a location that has a dog etc.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I would not recommend using this sign on your front door but I have it on my bedroom door as a joke:


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I would not recommend using this sign on your front door but I have it on my bedroom door as a joke:



AHAHAHA! Where did you get that sign? My husband would love that.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We have "Dogs on Premises" and our dogs are nowhere near our front door. 
They are in a fenced yard on the side of our home. 
There is zero chance our dogs will greet anyone at the front door unless they are inside our home (the dogs). We have gates up (inside) so they can't get to or out the back door. 

The front door could be accessed by my dogs, but I greet people at the door and close it behind me and go out onto the front porch to talk to them.
I don't allow people in our home, unless someone is here to put the dogs up when the person enters.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

In response to how are we supposed to protect our dogs:

When I am not home, I crate Rocky now. I know that this is hard for some people who work 10+ hours, but after talking to my cousin that is an EMS, my uncle that is a firefighter, and my BF (P.O) they all said that if they have to respond to somewhere, there is sometimes human error and if they go in the wrong house and a dog tries to attack them, if police are with them they will shoot it.

Also, if there ever were a fire, the head maintenance tech would come straight to my apartment to get Rocky and if Rocky was loose he would not let him in the house. However, if he was kenneled he would let him get him out and leash him. (our maintenance tech rescues german shepherds, he has FIVE, and he loves Rocky)

It does "suck" because you are supposed to have freedom in your home, but I would rather give up a bit of freedom and have Rocky be safe. (Also if the apartment above mine started flooding they may need to get into mine to turn off the hot water heater so I also crate him for that reason)

As for when I'm home, I have both locks locked on my front door and a sign on my front door that says "Uncrated German Shepherd. Please ring doorbell before entrance"

I think that's the most I can do.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

PatchonGSD said:


> AHAHAHA! Where did you get that sign? My husband would love that.


Tractor Supply!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sometimes I wonder what qualifies law enforcement officers to do what they do. Here in Wisconsin LEO were always allowed to carry weapons...even off duty. Kind of interesting since when off duty they are just regular citizens. We had an incident when one of them for some reason was just carrying the gun in his waist line (without any holster) and it fell down his pant leg and went off in a mall. The bullet shot off the floor and didn't injure anyone and he got off with a slap on the wrist. Wonder what would've happened to a regular citizen under the same circumstances.

I just don't get how on private property its shoot first and ask questions later. In this case...it wasn't even life or death. It's not like the stolen ladder was going to kill anyone. There wasn't any danger, it was just a stolen ladder. Sometimes you feel like they don't think the law applies to them, and when you read about these kinds of situations you definitely get the feeling the officer thought he was above the law.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Here in Wisconsin LEO were always allowed to carry weapons...even off duty. Kind of interesting *since when off duty they are just regular citizens.*


Yes and no...in smaller towns where officers are 'known' with or without their uniforms, their live are always at risk to an extent.

I was just watching Judge Judy where an officer got a false complaint filed against him for no reason.
What if that same guy who filed the false complaint (the next day) saw the cop at the mall with no uniform? It is not outside the realm of possibility that this angry citizen could take it out on the cop in some fashion. 

Concealed carry permits are issued (where they are given out) without training involved so an officer, expected to have much more training then a regular joe, ought to be able to carry his gun at all times if he chooses.

Yes, people (even cops) get lackadaisical about their weapons but that's not good gun stewardship but that doesn't mean nobody should be able to carry one.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Yes and no...in smaller towns where officers are 'known' with or without their uniforms, their live are always at risk to an extent.


I'm in Milwaukee...so I hope this isn't considered a small town. Also this happened right before our conceal carry law went into affect so it was quite perfect timing. I'm not going to get into a debate of how much more risk their life is than mine but I question people's choices if they feel like they need a gun to protect themselves because of something they do in life...be it in the line of duty or not.

Anyways...I think I'm just upset because I feel like in this case the officer definitely made a mistake and overstepped his rights. A dog lost its life...and its because its considered property that nothing is going to happen. I know these cases are few and far between, but we had a football player go to jail for 2 years for pretty much the same thing that happened to a police officer...and nothing happened to him. You kind of have to see the irony in those types of related incidents.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I'm in Milwaukee...so I hope this isn't considered a small town. Also this happened right before our conceal carry law went into affect so it was quite perfect timing. I'm not going to get into a debate of how much more risk their life is than mine but* I question people's choices if they feel like they need a gun to protect themselves because of something they do in life...be it in the line of duty or not.*


My husband and I both have conceal carry permits and we use them. Not because of what *we* choose to do in life, but because of what others aka crazy people choose to do in life. These days, you can never be too safe. Most of the time, it's just me and my toddler at home or out and about. I'm a perfect target for someone crazy so I carry and you better believe if anyone ever tried anything stupid, they would most definitely meet their maker.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Not because of what *we* choose to do in life, but because of what others aka crazy people choose to do in life. These days, you can never be too safe.


:thumbup:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Not because of what *we* choose to do in life, but because of what others aka crazy people choose to do in life. These days, you can never be too safe.


I REFUSE to give into people like that. If we give in and our dogs can't have a normal life because of that, they win.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> I REFUSE to give into people like that. If we give in and our dogs can't have a normal life because of that, they win.


lol huh?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

As many public shootings as there's been lately, I have the ability to carry a gun and I had better not be stuck under a table or bench somewhere where there is a madman shooting people and I could have stopped them.
I'd regret to my dying day that I could have had my firearm and taken the nutjob out, if that happened. 
Therefore, as often as practical, I have at least one on or near me.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

This topic has been difficult for me lately. I have thought a lot about this and it scares me. I don't crate because we have taught that being able to be out alone on the house while we are gone is a privillage. That and jasmine can open her crate. I want to start crating her again in the event someone comes into the house while we are gone but one I know she will get out and 2 I don't want her to think he is beig punished for something (she can make that correlation) 
Also, if someone needed to come in and she was crated and she was growling and trying to escape the kennel would they shoot her in the kennel? I feel they would
If the came while she was out and no one was here I know she would be shot because she would growl 
I do have signs on the front window and back sliding door that say caution area patrolled by german shepherd security but I don't think it would make a difference
How am I to protect my dog? Should I crate her and zip tie it shut?
I know this is an extreme over reaction, but I'm just not sure what to do and when thinking about all the ways this could happen, I see my dog dead


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is still rare. 

Check on your own communities. Go with a certain radius and a number of years. Research how many dogs have been killed by police in incidents like the previous three incidents. 

I am sorry, I am not going to make a dog live in a crate whenever I am not right there, because 3 dogs out of 3 million dogs got shot while at home by a cop this year. We had an almost identical situation, thought the dog was chained in the front yard. Wrong address, cop shot the dog, then tried to cover it up, by cutting the chain -- witnesses. The cop was fired. That was years ago and about 30 miles away from me. I have not heard of ANY other cop-killed-my-dog-while-he-was-innocently-protecting-his-home here in over 30 years of living out here.

Cops, for the most part LIKE dogs. 

When I was a teenager, I roamed a lot, and sometimes I had my mutt with me. She wasn't leashed, we were just bumming, she and I. She would steal cat food off of people's porches and would wait for me to get a chocolate donut from the 24 hour Lawson's to give her. (She lived to be 14+ before we put her down, inspite of Dad's and Purina dog food, chocolate donuts, and occasional stolen cat food.)

But anyway, a cop was driving through a parking lot, and I called to him, "Don't hit my dog!" And he was affronted, he said he wouldn't hit my dog. 

My brother left his chow mix in his basement while he was on vacation, and I went over to feed it. Well he had a stack of mattresses down there, and the dog climbed up them and chewed through the window and was attacking (I don't think it actually bit her though) the high school principle's wife. The cops called my mom (small town, she was the clerk of the village at the time) and she told them to shoot the dog. He said he couldn't shoot the dog. 

Cops really don't want to go around shooting dogs. Yes, there is the odd scumbag that might hate dogs, but he is in the minority. I bet this officer is getting a lot of guff from other officers for shooting that dog. And adding insult to injury that it was the wrong address. 

No one has to sneak onto a property for a stolen ladder. They do not have to kill someone's dog for a stolen ladder. This guy is probably in trouble. 

Maybe large departments have good systems for training cops, but here you can be 18 and work as an auxiliary officer with very little training, and yes, you do carry a gun. Scary. That may have changed since 20 some years ago when I was seventeen and working in my store at 2AM and the auxiliary snuck in and crept up on us. I told him he scared the bleep out of me, and he said I was lucky he didn't enter with his gun drawn. 

Later that night he saw me riding my bike and asked me about my sister who was with me at the shop. I asked him if he was married and he told me he was only 18. I was thinking, OMG, they let you carry a gun??? But, they did then. And I am sure that dealing with people's pets was probably not something they dwelled upon with these part-time, sub-rookies. Leaving them to work the night shift here on their own though, that probably could go way bad. Most of the guys I see at night are regular officers now. 

I am sorry this dog died. It was no fault of the owner. I don't know what should happen. They are investigating this, and my guess is that the officer will lose his job. My guess is that police work requires people use decent judgment. I am guessing within the first year, an officer's judgment is scrutinized and departments probably take the opportunity to prune the ranks of those who show problems in this area. Poor judgment can get him killed, and can get others killed.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

PatchonGSD said:


> lol huh?


I am talking about all the pre-cautions we have to take to keep our dogs "safe". I refuse to infringe on my dogs freedom because some mad man could enter OUR property and shoot our dogs. 

I refuse to live in a place where I have to constantly fear that somebody could enter and shoot first and ask later. 

Once you let that kind of fear impair your decision making, bad things can happen, bad decisions can be made. I let that kind of fear impair my judgement and I regret that decision for the rest of my life. 

I lived here for not even half a year and my judgement was based off of horror stories that animal control can just walk into your house, seize all your dogs, pts aggressive dogs without much further ado and I will not let that ever happen again. 

Am I scared that something like that could happen? 
Yes, I am. That is why a friend of mine jumped into the car, drove 20 minutes in the middle of the night to crate the dogs before we called 911 to transport me to the hospital. But at the same time, I will not live in fear of somebody entering the house. There is a chance, especially if EMS is involved but otherwise, don't let fear rule your life. 

Trust me, I speak from experience and my dog paid the price for that kind of fear.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> I am talking about all the pre-cautions we have to take to keep our dogs "safe". I refuse to infringe on my dogs freedom because some mad man could enter OUR property and shoot our dogs.
> 
> I refuse to live in a place where I have to constantly fear that somebody could enter and shoot first and ask later.
> 
> ...


I agree. 

I still fell horror of hearing of someone who broke into someone's house and took their puppy out of the crate and cut off all four paws. My dog is a sitting duck in a crate. There might be a couple of rouge cops out there, who will risk their jobs and kill a dog, but there are nutjobs out there, and they really aren't risking much of anything. My dogs might not be much safer in kennels, but I think they are more comfortable, and I think they are safer, at least from someone who wants to torture them, rather than just all out kill them. I would feel terrible if my dog was shot or poisoned and killed, but it is horror beyond thinking to imagine my dogs being tortured.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> As many public shootings as there's been lately, I have the ability to carry a gun and I had better not be stuck under a table or bench somewhere where there is a madman shooting people and I could have stopped them.
> I'd regret to my dying day that I could have had my firearm and taken the nutjob out, if that happened.
> Therefore, as often as practical, I have at least one on or near me.


Exactly.

This is my last off topic post on this but I know a lot of people tend to think that if you take away all the guns or limit them that there will be less crime.....well a criminal is a criminal is a criminal. There are many "lost, stolen and unregistered" guns out there for a criminal to get their hands on and still have. 

If someone is crazy enough to use a gun for something evil, they are crazy enough and will use anything else they can if a gun is not readily available, ie: homemade bombs, knives, clubs....the possibilities are endless. Taking away a persons right to bear arms will only leave this country with innocent people who will have no way to defend themselves against that nut jobs who will always exist. 

OK. I'm done.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

My husband is a medic.
I asked him what happens when he arrives and there's a dog barking and protecting it's owner, and he said he (or another medic or officer) removes the dog and then he can go about his work.
I don't think it's that common of an occurrence that there's an actually dangerous dog on a scene, and if there is one, it's not really common for a dog to be shot.

Think of it this way - every moment of every day there's officers and medics out there across the nation doing their duties, without shooting dogs. It's really not a common occurrence at all.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> My husband is a medic.
> I asked him what happens when he arrives and there's a dog barking and protecting it's owner, and he said he (or another medic or officer) removes the dog and then he can go about his work.
> I don't think it's that common of an occurrence that there's an actually dangerous dog on a scene, and if there is one, it's not really common for a dog to be shot.
> 
> Think of it this way - every moment of every day there's officers and medics out there across the nation doing their duties, without shooting dogs. It's really not a common occurrence at all.


We just went through Scene Safety in class and honestly, I am not surprised that so many dogs are shot. Fear is a huge factor in Scene Safety. There was one medic that got shot in 2009 and people are still talking about that medics should have bullet proof vests, that self-defense should be mandatory. 

Now we are talking about a very rural area where you get your occasional bad calls, accidents etc. and I'm not trying to downplay what EMS does. There is a lot of stuff going on. However, most of the time, the most exciting thing might be a transport from the hospital to Syracuse at least when I spend the night out at the Squad nothing ever happens. I had three transports, one DOA, that's it so far. 
Still, that incident is so fresh in the mind of EMS that it is talked about, a lot. Even though it was a single incident. 

So we get it bashed into our head to NEVER, NEVER, NEVER enter a Scene when it isn't safe. If there is a barking dog, you call the cops, you don't enter!
As for me, I can tell the difference between a bluffing dog. My study partner has a lab. You'd think that dog is a killer and he will run up to your car, stand right infront of your door in a barking frenzy. First time I met that dog I knew he's a big bluffer, opened the door and told him to knock it off. He followed me to the house and stopped barking. 

If that dog should ever do that with a cop, that dog would be shot, instantly.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I just did a search on Atlanta for dogs shot by police. 10 in Atlanta alone since 2010, occurring more frequently in the last year. That was just on the first page of the search. It did not include Fulton County (county ATL is located in) nor any of the metro counties or cities. I know of 3 this year in the county I am in. I doubt ATL would be the only city of comparable size that would have numbers like this. So what may have been considered rare at one time is happening more often now. 

Sure 10 in one city of thousands of dogs doesn't look like a lot. Out of those 10 how many died through lack of education on the owners and/or police? Multiply that by the full metro area - 13 counties and the multiple incorporated cities in them. Then if you really want to grow the numbers, how many large metro areas are there in the US?


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Off-Topic Warning: I'm with you guys. I have CCW. Been shooting since I was 6. Dad was a cop & taught us gun safety & usage early. 
Even as a 'girl'. Calif is high-crime. But you can bet it'd be lower if it was more 'Old West', where guns were NOT concealed. What idiot would attempt to steal a purse or rape a woman carrying a gun that he can see?

OK - I'm done with off-topic, too! 

Twyla - another good ideas you had, by looking up the stats. Think I'll do the same for our area. Altho lately, more bad guys are shooting our K9s while on duty...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Here, they'd enter w/a barking dog but there'd also be fire personnel on scene (volunteer fd) and officers, either sheriff, state or municipal police.
And he's a rescuer (hubby) so he'd feel okay to enter, I know.

WA state is an open carry state, btw, but we don't usually open carry 
I did open carry when we went hiking...as did hubby.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Here, they'd enter w/a barking dog but there'd also be fire personnel on scene (volunteer fd) and officers, either sheriff, state or municipal police.
> And he's a rescuer (hubby) so he'd feel okay to enter, I know.
> 
> WA state is an open carry state, btw, but we don't usually open carry
> I did open carry when we went hiking...as did hubby.


That means he thinks that the Scene is safe. So he can enter. I'd probably enter the scene too, others wouldn't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Twyla said:


> I just did a search on Atlanta for dogs shot by police. 10 in Atlanta alone since 2010, occurring more frequently in the last year. That was just on the first page of the search. It did not include Fulton County (county ATL is located in) nor any of the metro counties or cities. I know of 3 this year in the county I am in. I doubt ATL would be the only city of comparable size that would have numbers like this. So what may have been considered rare at one time is happening more often now.
> 
> Sure 10 in one city of thousands of dogs doesn't look like a lot. Out of those 10 how many died through lack of education on the owners and/or police? Multiply that by the full metro area - 13 counties and the multiple incorporated cities in them. Then if you really want to grow the numbers, how many large metro areas are there in the US?


Atlanta? Isn't there a lot of dog-fighting there? Is that where Michael Vick was out of? Just wondering. But ten? Is that ten dogs on their owner's property, and the cops came to the property without any crime having been committed by the property inhabitants to cause the cops to come. Or is this 10 dogs that the Atlanta police have shot in the past 2-3 years? 

Atlanta probably has a lot more people and dogs than our county has.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> My dog is a sitting duck in a crate.


I was going to start a thread about that! I worry all the time when I'm gone and my puppy is crated. That's part of the reason I like him to always be with me, so I know he's safe. 

I'm very very jealous of all you cc folks. I'm not allowed one where I live. Only criminals packin' in my 'hood!


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I am talking about all the pre-cautions we have to take to keep our dogs "safe". I refuse to infringe on my dogs freedom because some mad man could enter OUR property and shoot our dogs.



When you say "infringe on my ____'s freedom" it sounds like you are talking about a person. Dogs don't have rights. They are pets. I love my dog with all my heart but he is definitely not included in the constitution. I would choose a human life over 20 dog's lives any day. And I'm known as the "crazy dog girl" at my apartment.....

I guess it depends on people's different experiences though. I'm very social and with my job I meet 50-200 new people every night I work. I see the joy in life every day. Some people on this board interact with the same people every day, year after year or are retired and interact with their dogs more than humans. I know that dog's can feel enjoyment/happiness, but human life to me is very valuable and I would never risk a human life for a dog. I guess this is why I support cops or citizens that shoot dogs coming at them, regardless if it is the right or wrong house and regardless if the owner says "Oh he is harmless". My cousin that works with animal control gets bit by dogs a minimum of 3-4 times a year, whose owners say "He is friendly". I would not risk having my leg ripped to pieces and have to have surgery after surgery to try and run from or catch a dog rather than shooting it. (Luckily AC normally wears special pants that are harder to get bit through)

Best of luck to you. Good for standing up for what you believe in and not crating your dogs. Everyone must stand up for something or what is the point to life?

I never knew so many people hated crating their dogs before this thread  Every time I put my heels on for work, Rocky RUNS to his kennel and is laying down on all his pillows by the time I'm done getting ready  I usually pretend to lock the crate door if I'm only gone an hour or two and when I get back, I will slowly unlock the door and make a lot of noise. Rocky will be in his crate when I get in .... but when I walk in my bed room there is an impression of him on the pillow and it is warm  He sure is sneaky! lol


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

PatchonGSD said:


> In light of all these "cops shot my dog" stories I will be going to Wally World later today to get several "beware of dogs" signs to hang on my fences.......doubt it would make a huge difference, but at least any cop who entered my yard couldnt say they didnt know dogs were here.


 
I think barbed wire and a very strong lock would be better.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> You can custom make signs online for cheap!
> 
> Just asked the BF if they are trained on how to treat dogs in the academy. He said they just spent three days on family violence from 8am-5pm. Next three days deal with child molestors and the next week is spent on how to not get killed (safety precautions, how to enter homes, how to calm someone down). He said dogs are not a priority in the academy, they are learning how to save human lives instead and stay alive themselves. They did get to see some cool drug dogs though, and the k9 officers are revered there. He said the professor said that if they want to learn about dogs than to join animal control. And he said he is not asking any more questions for me since the prof made him look like an idiot for that one lol


Maybe they should implement a course on not entering private property without probable cause before shooting and killing family pets.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> I think barbed wire and a very strong lock would be better.


And put it under electricity!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> When you say "infringe on my ____'s freedom" it sounds like you are talking about a person. Dogs don't have rights. They are pets. I love my dog with all my heart but he is definitely not included in the constitution. I would choose a human life over 20 dog's lives any day. And I'm known as the "crazy dog girl" at my apartment.....
> 
> I guess it depends on people's different experiences though. I'm very social and with my job I meet 50-200 new people every night I work. I see the joy in life every day. Some people on this board interact with the same people every day, year after year or are retired and interact with their dogs more than humans. I know that dog's can feel enjoyment/happiness, but human life to me is very valuable and I would never risk a human life for a dog. I guess this is why I support cops or citizens that shoot dogs coming at them, regardless if it is the right or wrong house and regardless if the owner says "Oh he is harmless". My cousin that works with animal control gets bit by dogs a minimum of 3-4 times a year, whose owners say "He is friendly". I would not risk having my leg ripped to pieces and have to have surgery after surgery to try and run from or catch a dog rather than shooting it. (Luckily AC normally wears special pants that are harder to get bit through)
> 
> ...


My dogs, in MY house, on MY property have as much as freedom as I give them. I can give it, I take it away. If I want my dogs in MY house, outside a crate, than that is MY right without having to fear that some maniac storms through the door shooting MY dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> When you say "infringe on my ____'s freedom" it sounds like you are talking about a person. Dogs don't have rights. They are pets. I love my dog with all my heart but he is definitely not included in the constitution. I would choose a human life over 20 dog's lives any day. And I'm known as the "crazy dog girl" at my apartment.....
> 
> I guess it depends on people's different experiences though. I'm very social and with my job I meet 50-200 new people every night I work. I see the joy in life every day. Some people on this board interact with the same people every day, year after year or are retired and interact with their dogs more than humans. I know that dog's can feel enjoyment/happiness, but human life to me is very valuable and I would never risk a human life for a dog. I guess this is why I support cops or citizens that shoot dogs coming at them, regardless if it is the right or wrong house and regardless if the owner says "Oh he is harmless". My cousin that works with animal control gets bit by dogs a minimum of 3-4 times a year, whose owners say "He is friendly". I would not risk having my leg ripped to pieces and have to have surgery after surgery to try and run from or catch a dog rather than shooting it. (Luckily AC normally wears special pants that are harder to get bit through)
> 
> ...


It really depends on the individual. I don't like to crate dogs for lots of hours at a time. Sorry. I build kennels where they will be safe and can move comfortably, relieve themselves, change position, see the other critters, get fresh air, jump up onto their house or shelter, run around, get a drink of water. It is like leaving them in a large room, rather than leaving them in a cage that is slightly larger than they are. 

Some of us have to, on occasion be gone for 9, 10, 14, or even 18 hours. No dog should have to spend that kind of time in a crate day after day after day. That is just my opinion. If that is how you have to keep a puppy safe while he is not ready for the run of the house, well, at least there is a plan to give the dog more freedom. 

And, I have heard of shootings where the people were in the house asleep, and cops busted in, and shot the dog, so now to keep your dog safe, you better crate that dog all night too. 

At some point, you should probably go out and get a stuffed GSD, and put it in the crate, because if you are determined to keep your dog safe, well it will have to live 24/7 in its crate. 

I couldn't do that to a dog. I would rather take my chances with the cops shooting the dog. The odds are still way in your favor that that will never happen.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I suppose you could teach your dog to not charge or bark at people in a police uniform?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Syaoransbear said:


> I suppose you could teach your dog to not charge or bark at people in a police uniform?



Yeah, but only if the police officer shows his badge and sings "may I call you sweetheart" on key.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Looks like there are more people fed up then just us.. 
Calling the White House to save dogs from cops (Includes interview)


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> We have "Dogs on Premises" and our dogs are nowhere near our front door.
> They are in a fenced yard on the side of our home.
> There is zero chance our dogs will greet anyone at the front door unless they are inside our home (the dogs). We have gates up (inside) so they can't get to or out the back door.
> 
> ...


 
Well, can the police come in through the yard to get to a back door? It seems that lots of police these days prefer this route, without the knowledge of the home owner


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

NOW the dog can shoot back!


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Looks like there are more people fed up then just us..
> Calling the White House to save dogs from cops (Includes interview)


Yep - I can certainly where we could use another law...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> I think barbed wire and a very strong lock would be better.





Mrs.K said:


> And put it under electricity!


Solar fencers are cheap....just sayin'....


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Sometimes I wonder what qualifies law enforcement officers to do what they do. Here in Wisconsin LEO were always allowed to carry weapons...even off duty. *Kind of interesting since when off duty they are just regular citizens.* We had an incident when one of them for some reason was just carrying the gun in his waist line (without any holster) and it fell down his pant leg and went off in a mall. The bullet shot off the floor and didn't injure anyone and he got off with a slap on the wrist. Wonder what would've happened to a regular citizen under the same circumstances.
> 
> I just don't get how on private property its shoot first and ask questions later. In this case...it wasn't even life or death. It's not like the stolen ladder was going to kill anyone. There wasn't any danger, it was just a stolen ladder. Sometimes you feel like they don't think the law applies to them, and when you read about these kinds of situations you definitely get the feeling the officer thought he was above the law.


NO law enforcement officer is a "private citizen" when they are off duty. We are held to a higher standard and will ALWAYS be considered such, on or off duty. Some choose to carry while off, some dont. The job will change you. It doesn't matter if you came from a LE family or if you, like me, are the first. You spend day in and day out with the worst of the worst. The glimmers of light come from the hug and a "thank you" of a weary mother, the happy tears of a child as she is reunited with her family, and the moments when you know justice has been served. Unfortunately, the good is so very often outweighed by the bad. We are trained for the worst and to expect the worst. We are always on edge. YES, there are the bad apples who have no business being in LE. But give me a break...there are bad apples EVERYWHERE. How many dogs get shot by people OTHER than LE? I'm sorry, but even though I absolutely ADORE dogs, its a fact that will never change. For as long as dogs are used for security and other ill purposes by the bad guys, the good guys will have to stay on their toes around anything with 4 legs and a tail. Sure, training would be a great thing to offer, however many local departments are limited in their resources. A day of class isn't going to teach a new guy dog behavior. And it certainly won't do anything about teaching the proper response in a hot situation. That takes MUCH more training and experience. Even while on the job I can read a dog like a book. But very few people in society can. Heck, some of my coworkers are terrified of dogs. Dog people are a very specific sector of society...we are a little different, a little crazy, and VERY passionate about our babies...and yes we shed tears when sad news is shared, but the fact of the matter is that things aren't going to change any time soon. I'm sorry if I sound cold, but a huge pet peeve of mine is being monday morning quarterbacked by people who aren't in LE. As I said, there ARE people who shouldn't be in LE. But they are shadowed by the great many who deserve that badge every second of every day.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

For some reason I thought you were a photographer! So your a police officer on the outer banks? Sounds like an interesting job!


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

robk said:


> For some reason I thought you were a photographer! So your a police officer on the outer banks? Sounds like an interesting job!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


I am, and I am, sort of . I have a photography business to supplement income from my "career", which is law enforcement. I am not a police officer by title, but I am in law enforcement and work in a very similar capacity as police officers or sheriff's deputies. ETA: Just remembered you are from NC, lol. I work for the state


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Kaiser2012 said:


> For as long as dogs are used for security and other ill purposes by the bad guys, the good guys will have to stay on their toes around anything with 4 legs and a tail.


I can respect everything that you have said and I can respect law enforcement in general, but all the cases that have threads on THIS forum are not about dogs like you described as above. Technically most dogs are used for security and they do protect their home and yard. So in saying the above, you are in sense saying that any dog can be in danger? I can understand that anyone working in the public has to stay on their toes, but what happens when they step on someone else's toes? The last few posts about another dog shot by police have all been family pets, an error was made on the house in question, etc. These are not dogs running at large attacking officers that are in the line of duty. All of these officers have walked right into situations and made them worse by making very bad judgement calls. They either were scared, not thinking straight, or just not trained for the situation. Where I am police officers carry stun guns and if the situation arose I would much rather this option be used instead of shooting a dog, at least the dog will live. I also read about how some towns can't afford the training for situations like this...how much is the training compared to the lawsuits they face? I'm sure that the training can become affordable if these options are weighed. I know for a fact that if a police officer entered my yard, it was the wrong yard, it was about a stupid ladder and my dog got shot, I would not stop until that officer was out of job and I sued the city for as much as I could. I'm sorry if anyone disagrees with me, but my dogs are part of my family, they might not be human, but they do breath.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

I fully agree with civil repercussions in these situations, and I already noted that there are LEOs out there who aren't the cream of the crop. On that note, I also fully believe that everyone, LE and citizens alike, should be held accountable for their actions. Its hard to comment on what was going through the heads of the LEs who have shot the dogs referenced in so many posts...and I am certainly not making excuses for them...so its hard for me to put myself in their shoes in the moment. I just know that some situations seem much different in that "moment" as opposed to after. And of course, there are those situations where people are just downright stupid (there really is no other word for it and should lose their job for their behavior. Believe me, I'm on your side! My dogs are 100% my babies and I challenge ANYONE to try and hurt them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Kaiser2012 said:


> I fully agree with civil repercussions in these situations, and I already noted that there are LEOs out there who aren't the cream of the crop. On that note, I also fully believe that everyone, LE and citizens alike, should be held accountable for their actions. Its hard to comment on what was going through the heads of the LEs who have shot the dogs referenced in so many posts...and I am certainly not making excuses for them...so its hard for me to put myself in their shoes in the moment. I just know that some situations seem much different in that "moment" as opposed to after. And of course, there are those situations where people are just downright stupid (there really is no other word for it and should lose their job for their behavior. Believe me, I'm on your side! My dogs are 100% my babies and I challenge ANYONE to try and hurt them.


I am so happy you weren't offended by my post...I opened this thread up with one eye open, expecting the screen to explode I just wish that all people whether they work in the law profession or know someone that does could open their eyes and see what everyone else sees. I do not doubt that the officers in these situations were probably caught off guard and scared, but that is even scarier, because what if it was a person and they shot first, then asked questions. It could very well happen and that makes these kinds of officers very unstable. Its just scary to think that the officer in this thread was investigating a stolen ladder...it was definitely not an emergency and that makes things seem even worse


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

This has got to stop...


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I can respect everything that you have said and I can respect law enforcement in general, but all the cases that have threads on THIS forum are not about dogs like you described as above. Technically most dogs are used for security and they do protect their home and yard. So in saying the above, you are in sense saying that any dog can be in danger? I can understand that anyone working in the public has to stay on their toes, but what happens when they step on someone else's toes? The last few posts about another dog shot by police have all been family pets, an error was made on the house in question, etc. These are not dogs running at large attacking officers that are in the line of duty. All of these officers have walked right into situations and made them worse by making very bad judgement calls. They either were scared, not thinking straight, or just not trained for the situation. Where I am police officers carry stun guns and if the situation arose I would much rather this option be used instead of shooting a dog, at least the dog will live. I also read about how some towns can't afford the training for situations like this...how much is the training compared to the lawsuits they face? I'm sure that the training can become affordable if these options are weighed. I know for a fact that if a police officer entered my yard, it was the wrong yard, it was about a stupid ladder and my dog got shot, I would not stop until that officer was out of job and I sued the city for as much as I could. I'm sorry if anyone disagrees with me, but my dogs are part of my family, they might not be human, but they do breath.



I totally agree with this. I have the utmost respect for police officers. My father was one for 32 years. I have friends who are police officers. But if a cop showed up at my house by mistake and then shot my dog while she was contained in HER yard, I would be so livid, so outraged, I probably wouldn't stop until the officer was out of a job. As well as whoever was responsible for the mistake in the first place. Was the address dispatched wrong or did the cop just screw the address up and show up at the wrong house.

I completely understand how tough the job is but that doesn't mean I would allow my dog to pay with her life because someone else makes a mistake. Especially since in the last two threads, the attitude of the police departments just seems to be "Oops, our bad. Sorry, we had to kill you dog but these things happen." Well, the SHOULDN'T happen. And I am tired of the attitude "well, people come first so too bad, the dog has to die". I can understand that attitude if a dog is actually being sicced on an officer but that wasn't what happened in either of these cases. In this case the poor dog was even chained. Dogs may not be people but MY dogs are my family and a heck of a lot more important to me than most people. 

And why on earth didn't the officer pay more attention to his surrounding before just walking up into the yard. Shouldn't he have SEEN the dog first? Way to not be paying attention. 

There needs to be a better way. I know that I am going to have signs made AND I am going to secure my back gate better so that it CAN'T be opened from the outside. Period. I will then just have to remember to unlock on the days the people come to cut the grass. I guess that is a starting place.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kaiser2012 said:


> I'm sorry if I sound cold, but a huge pet peeve of mine is being monday morning quarterbacked by people who aren't in LE. As I said, there ARE people who shouldn't be in LE. But they are shadowed by the great many who deserve that badge every second of every day.


I think being monday-morning-quarterbacked by people who aren't in LE should be listed in the job description. It is part of life, really. 

Look at vets. I am not a vet and have never gone to school to be a vet, so this is not done with any breed bias. Vets listen to the information that the owner is willing to share, and checks the dog that cannot talk to him, and decides whether it makes sense to treat for what it is likely to be, or to run more tests and diagnose it. He has to come across as though he knows what he is doing or the owners will have no confidence. He generally will pose a choice to the owner as to what route they want to persue. But at the end of the day, on those occasions when the owner is not satisfied with the service, the diagnosis, they will spew forth their story on the internet, and bunch of people who have as much veterinary training as I, will break it down, and generally roundly abuse the vet, and the staff. 

The same is true about doctors, and while people may not be shooting at doctors, the ERs are kind of like war zones, and those doctors are under serious pressure. And people chronically break it down and roundly abuse them. Some do deserve it, but the fact is, you don't need any post-high-school classes to know that a sixty year old woman with fatigue and who is bleeding in her digestive tract should get a colonoscopy. Not Monday-morning-quarterbacking my mother's doctor, would mean I wouldn't have a mother right now. 

You don't have to be a doctor or nurse to question a doctor or his prognosis. 

You don't have to be a veterinarian or vet tech to question a vet's actions.

You do not have to be a teacher to question a teacher's discipline or methods.

You do not have to be a football player to question the play-calling (long time Browns' fan here so I know a lot about that). 

Why should you have to be a police officer to question a police officer's actions?

And discussing situations such as this one might make what we do with our dogs some day that much safer.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Why should you have to be a police officer to question a police officer's actions?


While you shouldn't, it helps to have perspective. Most folks have none - a doctor has to weigh benefits vs. risks all day long and it helps to know their mindsets when they prescribe something. Same with veterinarians, and same with football players. We can armchair quarterback but we have to know _something_ about how they operate or it's useless.

When people understand cops are their to protect the public and to save their own bacon, so they _can_ protect the public, it sure does help.

That is, if _they_ are unsafe they can't do their jobs. When you look at all situations that way, you get a new perspective. 
They also live their lives in the course of their jobs never knowing if that next traffic stop will be their last. They don't know if they are just sitting in a coffee shop and someone who hates cops decides they'll take them out.
They have a very dangerous job related to just humans. Add the humans pets into the equation and that danger increases exponentially. 
Life is not fair, it never is. It just _is_.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> While you shouldn't, it helps to have perspective.
> When people understand cops are their to protect the public and to save their own bacon, so they _can_ protect the public, it sure does help.
> 
> That is, if _they_ are unsafe they can't do their jobs. When you look at all situations that way, you get a new perspective.
> ...


Why shouldn't one question a police officer? Technically the public pays their salary and have the right to know what they are paying for. People question the President of the United States all day long. A police officer is human just like a doctor, a teacher,etc. As long as they are human they will be questioned. Maybe its not even them being questioned, but maybe their judgement or lack of judgement. Unsafe in one persons eyes is not necessarily the same in the next persons eyes. Sometimes they put themselves in situations that make them unsafe and that is questionable in its self. Again I respect them and what they do, but they did choose that career. It is one career where there is really no room for error. If they make a bad decision they should not be allowed to hide behind the badge and people who think that police never make bad decisions are just enabling them and giving them the power to think that they are invincible...that alone in this world is a liability.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LL I was responding to Selzers post.



> Why should you have to be a police officer to question a police officer's actions?





> While you shouldn't, it helps to have perspective.


I realize you only want to argue the same things over and over but maybe if you read her post then mine you'd see what I was saying.
Just like I'm not a brain surgeon, I'm not going to stand there and ask why the brain surgeon cut here, shouldn't he cut over there??

Question away. It amuses me you think griping on a forum is going to change things.

**I'm not a football player nor do I understand the game. I am an LEO albeit a currently unemployed one, and when you do the job you understand it better f_rom that perspective_.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> LL I was responding to Selzers post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understood perfectly what you were saying, I just added my opinion to it...it is a forum and I can do so anytime that I like. It had nothing to do with you, but its seems like you think it always does I'm not arguing with anyone, I was simply stating why a police officer can be questioned...I was going to be a police officer, but I thought about all the pros and cons and based on that my decision was made(this was when I was almost done with school). I will NOT go through life thinking all cops are good, that is a very naive way of thinking. I thank God for the good cops we have, but even a good cop will admit that there is plenty of bad cops out there.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Question away. It amuses me you think griping on a forum is going to change things.


And having an opinion and griping are two different things. I really could care less how other law enforcement works in other areas, I know it works in mine and I know that they put the money into training officers in my area. I'm happy with

So if we are done playing games...lets get back to the original question which is how we can keep our dogs safe if police think its okay to enter private property whenever they feel necessary.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> LL I was responding to Selzers post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The secretary at my church is not a podiatrist or a surgeon, and when she was doped up waiting for the surgery she half-wondered why they had done something to the off-foot. Well, after the surgery the doctor came in and told her that the surgery went well, and it was not as bad as expected. She told him that that was probably because they worked on the wrong foot! This happened to someone I know, not someone I heard about. This surgeon did surgery on me. If someone told me he was going to cut my skull here, to do surgery on some other part of my brain, yes I would ask them why. 

LEOs, I am sorry, but they are just ordinary human beings. For whatever reason, they CHOOSE to be a police officer, which is a public servant. It IS a dangerous job, but there are A LOT of dangerous jobs out there, and I don't know the LEO is even in the top ten when it comes to fatalities. Sorry about that. I think lumberjacks and farmers have you beat. Every day they could live their lives wondering if this will be their last, but most don't. And if a cop does, I am expecting that that might adjust their perspective.

Frankly, I don't think cops should feel like they are the only people on the planet that can understand what they do because that puts them, in their minds above the rest of us. When cops feel as though they are above the rest of the people, there is an extreme danger of power being abused. 

As for danger, we are all in danger, really. If some guy pulls a gun on a convenience store clerk and you are in that store, you are very close to getting killed. If something goes wrong, you can be killed really easy. You do not have to be a police officer to get killed by a thug. Police officers are a little better protected then the rest of us. If you kill a cop, your chances of getting the death penalty are a little better than if that same person kills me. That is just true. Society frowns on cop-killing and other officers work pretty hard to catch people who kill cops. 

We have had a cop killed in this county and his killer was caught. My sister in law's sister was murdered and her killer was not caught. You don't have to be a cop to get injured or killed on the job or off the job. There really aren't that many people that just hate cops and walk up to them and kill them, because those people aren't for this world for very long.

Police officers are exposed to some dangerous situations more than non-police officers. Domestic Violence, where people are heated, emotional, drunk, irrational, and cops do get hurt and killed sometimes in these situations. You would think that a cop who is used to the pressure of working in potentially dangerous situations would be less likely to kill pet dogs, really. 

I am sticking to my idea that this is actually still pretty rare. Most cops do not want to kill dogs. They are in situations where there are dogs often. And there really aren't that many cases of cops killing the dogs of innocent citizens, on their property, minding their own business. 

But if we ever get to the point where we do not question the actions of the police, well that would be a scary state of being.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The secretary at my church is not a podiatrist or a surgeon, and when she was doped up waiting for the surgery she half-wondered why they had done something to the off-foot. Well, after the surgery the doctor came in and told her that the surgery went well, and it was not as bad as expected. She told him that that was probably because they worked on the wrong foot! This happened to someone I know, not someone I heard about.


I believe it!! My brother had knee surgery and they came in and asked him which was the bad knee, and wrote their initials in ink on his leg. A few folks did that before he went to surgery. They are aware of that issue and take numerous steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I was thinking of those shows where you watch on TV what a surgeon is doing, not laying there having your head cut open :thumbup:


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

selzer said:


> The secretary at my church is not a podiatrist or a surgeon, and when she was doped up waiting for the surgery she half-wondered why they had done something to the off-foot. Well, after the surgery the doctor came in and told her that the surgery went well, and it was not as bad as expected. She told him that that was probably because they worked on the wrong foot! This happened to someone I know, not someone I heard about. This surgeon did surgery on me. If someone told me he was going to cut my skull here, to do surgery on some other part of my brain, yes I would ask them why.
> ...


When I had my surgery last month, the surgeon had to come into the room where they park patients waiting for surgery and with a felt tipped pen had to mark both the surgical site where the cancer was to be removed and the site where he was taking my skin graft ... he also had to initial both places. And I had to agree that he'd marked the correct areas. I don't know if this is just hospital policy, county law or state law, but it sure helps prevent problems like Selzer mentioned.

As far as wording on signs is concerned, here in Florida "BAD DOG" is the only wording on signs that has any legal meaning to it (the simple words are so even young children can comprehend the meaning).


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

have it made.



PatchonGSD said:


> I havent seen a "dog on premises" sign, I'll look for that wording. Thanks.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

So....are ACOs(Animal Control Officers) REALLY considered LEO's now? That IMHO is degrading to the true LEOs. I would say that ACOs fall under code enforcement officers. At least thats the way the county I live in works. 

I understand LEO stands for Law Enforcement Officer but I have a very hard time equating ACOs to be under that category. When people say LEO, it generally means Police etc. to ME. 

Anyway, just really curious.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think a lot of ACOs need an LEO with them to serve a warrant.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> I think a lot of ACOs need an LEO with them to serve a warrant.


We could if necessary...and "warranted" (no pun intended).

ACO's are LEOs since they are sworn officers of the law and work in police departments, with the ability to arrest people if necessary, read them their rights, go to court, the whole 9 yards.

Many "Code enforcement" are just that. Not sworn officers, and don't enforce criminal violations. 

I was sworn in by the Chief of Police, had arrest capabilities and if necessary, to get and serve a warrant. There's a difference between writing a code violation for weeds and writing a criminal citation.

Oh, and I attended LEO academy and trained alongside police officers :thumbup:

https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=99&Itemid=10 
For more information


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

arycrest said:


> When I had my surgery last month, the surgeon had to come into the room where they park patients waiting for surgery and with a felt tipped pen had to mark both the surgical site where the cancer was to be removed and the site where he was taking my skin graft ... he also had to initial both places. And I had to agree that he'd marked the correct areas. I don't know if this is just hospital policy, county law or state law, but it sure helps prevent problems like Selzer mentioned.
> 
> As far as wording on signs is concerned, here in Florida "BAD DOG" is the only wording on signs that has any legal meaning to it (the simple words are so even young children can comprehend the meaning).


They do this at many hospitals due to all the mix ups that have happened. The big story that led to hospitals doing this is because someone amputated the wrong leg and the patient had to then become a double amputee all because of a mix up.
When my BF went in for knee surgery they marked it "this one" and initialed it. Its a simple way to decrease errors


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Do you have the qualifications necessary to start as a police officer in a police department?

The way you said you attended the academy, made me wonder, as you did not say you graduated from the police acedemy.



msvette2u said:


> We could if necessary...and "warranted" (no pun intended).
> 
> ACO's are LEOs since they are sworn officers of the law and work in police departments, with the ability to arrest people if necessary, read them their rights, go to court, the whole 9 yards.
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DTS said:


> They do this at many hospitals due to all the mix ups that have happened. The big story that led to hospitals doing this is because someone amputated the wrong leg and the patient had to then become a double amputee all because of a mix up.
> When my BF went in for knee surgery they marked it "this one" and initialed it. Its a simple way to decrease errors


I knew about the foot business, but did not know which doctor it was. When I was in for my surgery -- the doctor does joke around a lot, so I told him I was going to draw a little knife on the left wrist and put a circle and slash through it. He was laughed a little. 

Then he asked me if I wanted to be more awake or more asleep, and of course I said more asleep. 

I don't do anesthetic well, and have been way too aware in surgeries, so he is joking around in the surgery and I answered him at one point, and he looked up at the anesthesiologist to give me more juice. Then he drew all over my hand before wrapping it up. 

I found out a few years later that it was he that operated on the wrong foot. Uhg!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> Do you have the qualifications necessary to start as a police officer in a police department?
> 
> The way you said you attended the academy, made me wonder, as you did not say you graduated from the police acedemy.


I'm sure I could but yet I'd need additional training. It's an 80 course and yes, I actually graduated LOL 
The question has never come up before, and apparently nobody researched it...why would I just randomly say I graduated from Academy?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The way you said you attended the academy,


I see what you are saying. I was clarifying, meaning, it was _police academy_ I attended, over by Seattle, got paid for going, and I did graduate the academy. 
I got hired 1st then went to academy when it started again shortly after I was hired. 
It's not really that uncommon. I'd previously only volunteered at a shelter, but that helped, especially since I'd done many things related to "animal control".
Once an officer, you don't lose the credential which is why I am _still_ an ACO and still eligible for hire; now all I have to do is find a part time position somewhere 

RedChrome - you of all people should remember that when Nick Young was killed, they gave him a _Police Officer's Funeral_ in Kennewick, because, OH that's right, ACOs _are _LEOs :thumbup:


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I called TCAC(Tri-City Animal Control) and Benton County Animal Control today. Both said that they as ACOs have no arresting capabilities nor can they serve warrants or read people their rights and it mean something. That's the way it is done here. Other places might do things differently but here the ACOs can just write violations and citations but that is all according to MY local area.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Training and Conferences - Training and Conferences - Washington Animal Control Association

It's Animal Control Officer Academy. MUCH MUCH different from the Police Academy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> *The 80-hour Animal Control Officer Academy will include:
> Traditional Law Enforcement Classes:
> Communications
> Criminal Law
> ...


_Prerequisite: Current employment with a *Law Enforcement Agency*_

Perhaps this is too difficult for you to read?

Location: *Washington State Criminal Justice Training Center*
This..._is_ "Police Academy" and yes, they train Police Officers there as well 
The same instructors that trained us train POs also.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I read that but they are Animal Control Officers, NOT Law Enforcement Officers. After taking that course, you are an ACO...NOT an LEO. No matter HOW you read it or word it.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Just because you work for a Law Enforcement Agency doesn't mean that you are an LEO. It means you work for a Law Enforcement Agency and are a desk clerk,file clerk etc. etc. Misrepresenting yourself as an LEO is NOT very cool IMHO.

Just because the class is at the same place doesn't make it the same thing! The title of the course reads Animal Control Officer Academy NOT Police Academy. It is VERY different. I just had a friend finish the Police Academy and she spent WAY more than 80 hours on it AND it wasn't called ANIMAL CONTROL OFFICER ACADEMY, it was called Police Academy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

What did you think we enforce, diaries?? We "ENFORCE" the "LAW". And we are "OFFICERS", and yes, it is fine to say "LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER" when you ENFORCE THE LAW.
What part of "LAW" "ENFORCEMENT" do you not understand?? 
:crazy:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> Just because you work for a Law Enforcement Agency doesn't mean that you are an LEO. It means you work for a Law Enforcement Agency and are a desk clerk,file clerk etc. etc. Misrepresenting yourself as an LEO is NOT very cool IMHO.
> 
> Just because the class is at the same place doesn't make it the same thing! The title of the course reads Animal Control Officer Academy NOT Police Academy. It is VERY different. I just had a friend finish the Police Academy and she spent WAY more than 80 hours on it AND it wasn't called ANIMAL CONTROL OFFICER ACADEMY, it was called Police Academy.
> 
> Misrepresenting yourself as an LEO is NOT something that one should do.


:thumbup: Isn't it against the law to impersonate a police officer Sorry I couldn't help myself...I'll go away now

***Read the section on the requirements to be an animal control officer***


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I understand it fine. I have a LOT of friends that are LEOs and they work a lot harder to get their positions than an 80 hour course. I linked this thread to a couple of them and they vehemently believe that ACOs are NOT LEOs and they don't go to the Police Academy they go to the Animal Control Officer Academy. 

I bet some of the true LEOs on here would agree with me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Wow, that was low and an insult. 

I never said "POLICE" Officer. 
I am an L(aw) E(nforcement) O(fficer) because I *enforce laws* (when I worked) and I won't sit around saying I'm a CODE enforcement because it's not CODES I enforce, it is LAWS. 

I guess if you don't crucify cops on this board you're subject to all sorts of insults? Thank you for that info, tucking it away for future reference


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

llombardo said:


> ***Read the section on the requirements to be an animal control officer***


"High School Graduate"...yep, same as a _Police Officer,_ and your point is...??


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't crucify cops. I am actually offended by some of the statements here that seem to put other careers on the same level as that of a police officer who goes to work everyday not knowing if they'll come home safe or at all. Sure it is a possibility for all of us but LEOs have a higher risk than that of other careers or professions.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> "High School Graduate"...yep, same as a _Police Officer,_ and your point is...??


Maybe this is the problem in some areas This is one career that having a high school diploma only is NOT enough. Police officers in my area are required to have 4 years of schooling...some might get away with 2 years, but that is slowly changing to more schooling.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

VonKromeHaus said:


> I don't crucify cops. I am actually offended by some of the statements here that seem to put other careers on the same level as that of a police officer who goes to work everyday not knowing if they'll come home safe or at all. Sure it is a possibility for all of us but LEOs have a higher risk than that of other careers or professions.


Honestly, after seeing what I saw today in the EVOC class, and what I learned about Scene Safety. EMS is right there on the same level, in some areast (not everywhere but violence against EMS is increasing to thre point that some EMS agencies issue stab vests to their personnel and I heard of others that wear bullet proof vests, now I wouldn't go that far in our county).


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

For sure Mrs.K but ACOs are not anywhere near it, IMHO and the opinion of friends of mine who are LEOs.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

llombardo said:


> Maybe this is the problem in some areas This is one career that having a high school diploma only is NOT enough. Police officers in area are required to have 4 years of schooling...some might get away with 2 years, but that is slowly changing to more schooling.


My friend just went through the Police Academy here in WA and they required her 2 year degree but she has her 4 year degree as well as other experience.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

VonKromeHaus said:


> For sure Mrs.K but ACOs are not anywhere near it, IMHO and the opinion of friends of mine who are LEOs.


True, unless you run into some maniac horder that runs you off the property with his shotgun.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, after seeing what I saw today in the EVOC class, and what I learned about Scene Safety. EMS is right there on the same level, in some areast (not everywhere but violence against EMS is increasing to thre point that some EMS agencies issue stab vests to their personnel and I heard of others that wear bullet proof vests, now I wouldn't go that far in our county).


:thumbup:

Not to mention, ACO is a very dangerous job, not only the dogs out there but the owners!
I know more and more ACOs are allowed to carry guns, and I was headed that direction before they dissolved my entire position with the Police department. Budget cuts and ACOs (law enforcement in general) are usually first to go 
I'd have needed some additional training but not a big deal to have that additional safety net.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> True, unless you run into some maniac horder that runs you off the property with his shotgun.


Dangerous job - happens more than folks realize


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> My friend just went through the Police Academy here in WA and they required her 2 year degree but she has her 4 year degree as well as other experience.


And this is what will make a good police officer I think they would consider the 2 year with experience. Most places will post a position and they will state min requirements and then desired requirements. Of course the desired requirements will trump the min requirements every time. So unless a town was in desperate need of police officers, a person with just a high school diploma will not stand a chance.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Dangerous job - happens more than folks realize


Honestly, I can believe it. 

We'd all turn into dangerous owners if an ACO would try to take our dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I can believe it.
> 
> We'd all turn into dangerous owners if an ACO would try to take our dogs.


Part of my interview when I got my job was..."You are there at someone's house, pick up their dog, and go to stick it in the truck, when the owner pulls a gun and says 'You're not taking my dog!' What do you do?"

I was like...Um...give them back the dog??

LOL That was the right answer. Or the "most right" one!!
No dog is worth losing your life over 

But, pets and kids are the most inflammatory situations out there.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I live in an area that can be dangerous, but this isn't inner city Philly or downtown LA.

Some people...wow. I think ACOs should have to have more training. An ACO with a big ego and attitude problem is more dangerous than the city they work in. The previous ACO in a small town close to me helped PASS BSL before the end of their term. ACOs are their own worse enemy a lot of the time IME. Treat someone with respect and they'll learn things from you instead of insulting and belittling them.

I'm done here. I stand by my feeling that an ACO is NOT the same as an LEO.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Kind of interesting since when off duty they are just regular citizens.


Wanted to clarify this quote as it got someone riled up...legally they are the same or at least they should be. If an off-duty officer does something stupid I expect him to be treated the same way as a regular citizen. I know what you meant by a higher standard...an off-duty cop getting a DWI is reported on the news, a random other person doesn't.

But that is part of the job they chose...they are LEOs, they enforce laws, so for them to be breaking said laws doesn't look good. I'm an accountant...for me to evade taxes or not follow tax law would look really bad as well.

But that works for all professions...an unhealthy doctor is going to lose patients. A dog trainer with unruly personal pets won't get much business. I mean you can kind of go on and on with this.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

VonKromeHaus said:


> I live in an area that can be dangerous, but this isn't inner city Philly or downtown LA.
> 
> Some people...wow. I think ACOs should have to have more training. An ACO with a big ego and attitude problem is more dangerous than the city they work in. The previous ACO in a small town close to me helped PASS BSL before the end of their term. ACOs are their own worse enemy a lot of the time IME. Treat someone with respect and they'll learn things from you instead of insulting and belittling them.
> 
> I'm done here. I stand by my feeling that an ACO is NOT the same as an LEO.


I get what you are saying and there is a difference. However aren't ACO's enforcing laws to a certain extend, even though it's specific laws? 
So in some sense they are law enforcement, however, not to the same extend as Cops. They are "Animal Cops". 

Not the same but they are in the same family as Cops, Firefighters, EMS... I'd count ACO in there too because we all work hand in hand.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I get what you are saying and there is a difference. However aren't ACO's enforcing laws to a certain extend, even though it's specific laws?
> So in some sense they are law enforcement, however, not to the same extend as Cops. They are "Animal Cops".
> 
> *Not the same but they are in the same family as Cops, Firefighters, EMS... I'd count ACO in there too because we all work hand in hand.*


You are right. 
And as an "OFFICER" (yes, the term is "Animal Control OFFICER") I identify strongly with cops, bcause I worked with them daily and my boss was the Police Chief!

If someone really wants to pick it apart I suppose they can, but yeah. I was sworn in as an OFFICER of the law, carried a Miranda card, and upheld and enforced _laws._ 

Why some folks want to try to discredit that I can only imagine...but have at it I guess 
Boring Saturday night??


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

In my area they have no more duties than a code enforcement officer who is also enforcing laws...so...by the same logic, they could be considered LEOs too. 

Same family sure....but not the same and you sure don't have to go to the Police Academy as was suggested earlier.

I just hate seeing a very difficult job that a few of my friends do demeaned by equating it with being an ACO. I'm not discrediting anything, just defending a position from being equated with something it is not. The police officers I know work their butts off and go through the ringer with PT tests,training,academy etc. Not at all the same as what an ACO has to have.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

VonKromeHaus said:


> In my area they have no more duties than a code enforcement officer who is also enforcing laws...so...by the same logic, they could be considered LEOs too.
> 
> Same family sure....but not the same and you sure don't have to go to the Police Academy as was suggested earlier.


okay. I'm not sure if we have code-enforcement officers in Germany or what the equivalent would be. Would you put ACO more into the same section as Park Rangers? Just as comparison?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> okay. I'm not sure if we have code-enforcement officers in Germany or what the equivalent would be. Would you put ACO more into the same section as *Park Rangers?* Just as comparison?


Park Rangers often carry guns! 
They are also at risk of being harmed, too, recently one was just killed in our state 

_This_ is "ACO Training". 

The 80-hour Animal Control Officer Academy will include:
_Traditional *Law *Enforcement Classes:_
*Communications
Criminal Law
Ethics
Radio Procedures
Search & Seizure
Court Structure & Terms*
Prerequisite: Current employment with a Law Enforcement Agency

Location: W*ashington State Criminal Justice Training Center* 
(HINT: Criminal Justice Training Center IS where OFFICERS GO TO TRAIN)

This...is "Police Academy" and yes, they train Police Officers there as well. 

The same instructors that trained us train POs also, especially report writing and criminal investigations. 

It was one week of the same education Police officers get then another week of Animal Specific training.

Criminal and misdemeanor citations aren't the same as CODES.
If you get pulled over by the cops driving too fast, there's a criminal and misdemeanor laws at play, not merely "your weeds are too tall" or "move that couch off your front porch".


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

.No, not really, park rangers typically are more trained and schooled than an ACO. 

BTW- you don't have to go through ACO academy to be an ACO here in WA according to what I've read.

Just because I take the same classes as a Police Officer doesn't mean I went to the Police Academy. I am done here, I can't watch someone compare their 80 hour training course to going through the Police Academy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> okay. I'm not sure if we have code-enforcement officers in Germany or what the equivalent would be. Would you put ACO more into the same section as Park Rangers? Just as comparison?


Code enforcement usually deals with stuff that is code specific to a town. For example...building permits, inspections, parking tickets, etc. Animal Control deals with stray dogs, animal cruelty, neglect cases, etc., which sadly most of these offenses don't require a person to be arrested, just fined. I suppose in some cases an arrest can be made, but where I'm at the police officers would have to come in and make that arrest.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

llombardo said:


> Code enforcement usually deals with stuff that is code specific to a town. For example...building permits, inspections, parking tickets, etc. _*Animal Control deals with stray dogs, animal cruelty, neglect cases, etc., which sadly most of these offenses don't require a person to be arrested, just fined. I suppose in some cases an arrest can be made, but where I'm at the police officers would have to come in and make that arrest*_.


Same as here! Ours don't even do neglect cases or vicious dogs. The report has to be filed through the Sheriff's Department and ALL AC does is pick up the dog. Everything else is done through the Sheriff's department. They only directly deal with at large or roaming dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think since an arrest warrant is technically needed for an arrest anywhere (unless there are certain dangers involved) an ACO could technically have a warrant and arrest said person. This would come with a lot of back up before hand and you would pretty much need to have enough evidence to convince the suspect of the crime he/she is being charged with.

The reason I don't see an ACO arresting someone on the spot is because they aren't usually dealing with cases that require an arrest. I mean...how many animal laws are there out there that come with jail time?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

llombardo said:


> Code enforcement usually deals with stuff that is code specific to a town. For example...building permits, inspections, parking tickets, etc. Animal Control deals with stray dogs, animal cruelty, neglect cases, etc., which sadly most of these offenses don't require a person to be arrested, just fined. I suppose in some cases an arrest can be made, but where I'm at the police officers would have to come in and make that arrest.


Well, where I worked it is on me. I had cruelty cases, etc. and if an arrest was going to be made, I would NOT do it (although I could) I would definitely call one of my brothers with arms  I have my Miranda card, but as I said earlier, I never carried a gun, just pepper spray and one of those sticks. 

That said, I did enforce criminal laws as well as misdemeanors. There's a lot to it, I suspect more than folks apparently realize. 

I don't care what anyone's opinion is of it, really. I know what I did (and would do, if they'd open my position again!) and I consider myself an officer as do my fellow officers. A few yrs. back a fellow ACO passed away and he got a full Police Funeral, all the guys in uniform who could be there, were. 
It was very touching and a testament to what we do and as MrsK said, how we work together.

Even if Chrome's "LEO friends" snub ACOs, the guys I worked with never did, and were glad as **** when I'd show up on scene!!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> The reason I don't see an ACO arresting someone on the spot is because they aren't usually dealing with cases that require an arrest. I mean...how many animal laws are there out there that come with jail time?


Its sad that some of these people can't face jail time for the things they do to animals. I could never be animal control and deal with people that hurt animals...it would be just to much


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Even if Chrome's "LEO friends" snub ACOs, the guys I worked with never did, and were glad as **** when I'd show up on scene!!


I never said they snub them. I said they don't feel they are on equal grounds as far as training and jobs go. But the LEOs I know are well versed in dogs as well..since most I know are involved in training in some capacity or another.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Come on people, let's try to stay on topic and not get personal. I'm tired of getting all the notifications of everyone on each other when there is alot of 'bad behaviour' going on from everyone.

Talk about the subjects and stop attacking and being nasty with each other.

Thread locked...

aw:


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