# Vegas Sieger again in 2009



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And his daughter made Siegerin. Jenna's pups are out of his son. I really like this dog (the son). The daughter was linebred closely on Bax, does anyone know the Bax's strong and weak points.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4755038/Main/4754986/ has pictures too..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Such great bitework this year! Great examples of the breed! *sarcasm*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10-bn34-2fE


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

LOL, I agree Liesje! The BSZS is about money and politics. That should come as no surprise to anyone. The SV talks about change, but very little happens. (Check out the hideous broken topline on the Youth Sieger.) It is controlled by a group of powerful (show) breeders, and that is likely to remain for the foreseeable future. It is absolutely no good looking to this organization and saying " the SV says so-and-so is great" so it must be so. Personally I think the breed would be much better served by having the Sieger show become more of a Universal Sieger competition.... some working lines could improve their conformation (Javir von Talka Marda is KKl1, so it can be done), and the Schutzdienst should be judged at the same level as at the BSP, not the sham they have at the BSZS. If this were the case, you might see a very different type of dog with the Sieger title, one that was closer to the dogs that were winning in the early 70's before the split into working and show occurred. I no longer pay any attention to what comes out of the BSZS, I watch the BSP and the WUSV Weltmeisterschaft where a dog actually has to achieve something to get to the top.

____________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

BTW, if anyone wants to see what a REAL courage test looks like, here is a link from the 2007 WUSV championship"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_9s8KArXM


______________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Anja1Blue LOL, I agree Liesje! The BSZS is about money and politics. That should come as no surprise to anyone. The SV talks about change, but very little happens. (Check out the hideous broken topline on the Youth Sieger.) It is controlled by a group of powerful (show) breeders, and that is likely to remain for the foreseeable future. It is absolutely no good looking to this organization and saying " the SV says so-and-so is great" so it must be so. Personally I think the breed would be much better served by having the Sieger show become more of a Universal Sieger competition.... some working lines could improve their conformation (Javir von Talka Marda is KKl1, so it can be done), and the Schutzdienst should be judged at the same level as at the BSP, not the sham they have at the BSZS. If this were the case, you might see a very different type of dog with the Sieger title, one that was closer to the dogs that were winning in the early 70's before the split into working and show occurred. I no longer pay any attention to what comes out of the BSZS, I watch the BSP and the WUSV Weltmeisterschaft where a dog actually has to achieve something to get to the top.


Maybe the only way to salvage it is make the Schutzdients a FULL TRIAL. And no second and third tries!!!

Javir is a beautiful dog in every way. Even for show I would take him over Vegas any day.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Yes, absolutely! He isn't in the video I posted above, but many good dogs are - and there is a video on YouTube somewhere of his BSP routine..... 

__________________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD -adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I did not see Vegas' bite work video in there. It was my understanding that a dog that did not pass the protection was not rated.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Vegas passed, as far as their show standards...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I saw his bitework in 2008 and it was fine. I saw Xara in 2005, she took siegerin in 2006 and that looked good too. I also see that Ghazie Von Aurelius took SG2 in young females. This is Gispo's sister. 

I like the German showlines, and am perfectly happy with the bitework from Vegas and Xara. I scanned some of those u-tubes and found some appauling working line dogs' bitework too. Out of thousands of dogs, this video shows four dogs. As they are in order, I suppose it could be typical, but the focus for these dogs has been show, not schutzhund. 

I would hope that these dogs in this clipped failed their test. It is more than the American lines do. To be Grand Victor and Grand Victrix.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:I suppose it could be typical, but the focus for these dogs has been show, not schutzhund.


Not an excuse though. These people new that their was going to be a courage test.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

Selzer, 

The focus may be show, but each of those dogs that took the field hoping to be VA1 HAS at least a SchH2 title and a breed survey. A SchH2 dog SHOULD be able to heel for a simple attack out of the blind. A courage test is standard at the end of every SchH routine no matter the level. 

I would love to see the scorebooks on the top 10 dogs !! I bet many of them have V rated bitework scores. If that is truly the case, every single one of those dogs should have had an incredible performance test. ROFLMAO


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

selzer, would you be kind enough to direct me to the videos of working line dogs doing "appauling" bitework? I would be interested to see them.....

___________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopoted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Even if they do, that's hardly an excuse. Two wrongs make it right?


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Working Dogs doing appalling bitework aren't v-rated or producing hundreds of puppies a year for 5k on up either. Nor are they considered anything else but poor representations of the breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are two, I hope that I posted these ok.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRDf4uVhKuA&feature=related

and 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEBhIRwUXdk&feature=related


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

the problem is that the dogs that show character issues were awarded schutzhund titles. These dogs most likely flunked the test at the Sieger show, but they passed at schutzhund shows. Which indicates that there are problems in the schutzhund arena that enabled these dogs to earn these titles.

So everyone should not be mad at the decline of the German Showlines so much as the schutzhund club shows awarding substandard dogs titles.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

You don't have to necessarily go to a club to get a SchH 3 (which is the coveted title.) Have some cash in hand, line up a friendly judge, another dog for the long down, and head to the nearest field. These "events" are called "midnight trials". You can buy anything for money these days. It is painfully obvious that the dogs of the Sieger Show are NOT trained on a regular basis - look at the sloppy heeling and the fact that some need multiple pops to get them to sit. 

As far as the TWO examples you show above 1) was disqualified for not outing, the bite was still better than the dogs at the SS 2) shouldn't have been there. There are always going to be dogs in any kind of competition which don't do well - no-one is disputing that. ('Course these two guys might have blown everyone else away in OB and tracking - SchH is after all a 3 phase competiton.) However, to use these examples and compare it to the SS where HUNDREDS of dogs on one given day either fail or are given a pass with substandard work (and I'm being kind) is simply not convincing.
Show me a few hundred more and I'll start to think about it...

______________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> So everyone should not be mad at the decline of the German Showlines so much as the schutzhund club shows awarding substandard dogs titles.


Who do you think populates and runs those schutzhund clubs? The show line people! These people are not going and getting titles on their dog at regular clubs under regular judges. They have their own culture within the schutzhund world... their own clubs, own helpers, own judges in their pocket, they host "midnight trials" to obtain their titles, if they even obtain them on a trial field rather than by passing a few Euros and a scorebook back and forth with the judge over a few steins of beer. How else does a dog who can't heel, can't track, doesn't have a clue what a dumbbell is, and can't pass even the most basic of protection exercises get a SchH3?

SchH as it is designed would not allow these dogs to pass. The rules would not allow these dogs to pass. A legitimate helper would run these dogs off the field. A legitimate judge would not pass them, much less after allowing a bunch of do-overs and awarding "pronounced" ratings. But it is the PEOPLE involved who have perverted SchH as any form of a breed test. And unfortunately, those people who view a title as nothing more than a few letters that they need in order to breed and show and have invented ways to achieve that that completely circumvent the whole process and what it was intended to accomplish, are the ones with the most numbers, power, money and influence, so they get to keep doing it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: selzerThere are two, I hope that I posted these ok.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRDf4uVhKuA&feature=related
> 
> ...


#1, the power, intensity, commitment and quality of the bite are night/day compared to what is seen on the SS videos. Dog didn't out. That could be a nerve problem, could be a training problem, could be a dog just getting a bit uppity and disobedient that day. 

#2, maybe the dog shouldn't have been there. Or maybe he had one of those "bad days" that seems to be the excuse for most of the dogs at the SS. At least this dog, competing in the WUSV, we KNOW has * multiple, legitimate* SchH3s in real trials, with real helpers and real judges. Otherwise he couldn't be in the WUSV in the first place. And he still showed a lot more commitment heading down field and on his initial launch for the bite that you'll see at the SS.

I'd be more inclined to think that sort of dog, an anomaly at this level of trial, is more deserving of the "bad day" excuse than dogs with questionable titles, who show weak behavior consistently, and who are the *norm* at the SS, not the oddball.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Anyone here can find a few videos to prove or support any agenda. Sue have you been to a Sieger Show in recent years? I love GSDs, I love SHOW line dogs, and the last Sieger Show I attended in April I got up and left halfway through because the quality of the bite "work" was so poor it was beyond frustrating and embarassing. I only don't regret entering my own dog because I had fun hanging out with friends, and meeting some really cool people. But as far as the dogs, it may have been a waste of my time. At a show of such caliber, it should not be the norm to have maybe five standout dogs and all the rest mediocre at best. These are supposed to be the best dogs in the world, the select few, and you can go to any halfway decent SchH club and probably find five puppies doing better work than what we've seen at the last several Sieger Shows in the US and Germany.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chris, you are so right. what burns me up is the people who are using all kind of extremes and exception to try to justify this junk. I guess because they may have dogs that are from this genetic base. These dogs at the seiger show that didnot perform are not the exception, they are not being bashed, this is a regular occurrence with these lines. That's why you don't see any showline dogs that are world performance performers anymore....they "basically" can't perform. Lies don't figure and figures don't lie. The effort taken to find justification for the repeated decline every year of these dogs can be better channeled into "changing the recipe". Otherwise, the decline continues until the German showline dog becomes a poodle in nature(by that I mean poodle here in the states). Everybody be happy then???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So if anything can be bought why don't you ante up and buy a VA rating if that is what you want?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If that question is directed to me, I would say that I wouldn't ante up for the same reason I wouldn't own a Grand Victor dog. What would I do with it? Can't work it, won't breed it, have to feed it...not my cup of tea!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerThere are two, I hope that I posted these ok.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRDf4uVhKuA&feature=related
> 
> ...


The big difference is they were DQ, and did not passed with "pronounced" as many dogs that bite but do not out do at show courage test.

I know personally to dog 2. Her owner is an Argentinian guy who comes to almost every seminar in Chile. This is the first dog he trains completely with positive methods and has been a big change for him. As for the dog, yes, she has some nerve issues that can be seen on the SchH field, but bomb proof temperament in other instances, other dogs, kids, etc. A nice dog to be around. unfortunately the owner has too much ego and Laurie was not prepared enough for an WUSV, today she didn't pass tracking at the FCI Championship either.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

The helper here RAN the dog off the field!!! As it should have been!! The dog maybe wasn't _______ or whatnot but she had a chance to re-engage... But didn't. So guess what? Fail...

Now..... Can you IMAGINE if that kind of pressure had been used at the Sieger Show? I mean this helper REALLY showed himself as a threat to the dog! it would have been a courageous dog indeed to come back at this guy! 

I would bet a lot of money, a LOT of money that had this helper been used for the SS and put that kind of pressure on the working males at the SS that all but MAYBE 5% of the SchH3 males would have tucked tail and run. Honestly I don't think that any of them would have taken it but there is hopefully a decent dog or two left...

This helperwork, this TEST, shown in this video... is exactly how it should be!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerSo if anything can be bought why don't you ante up and buy a VA rating if that is what you want?


Who here said they wanted a VA rating? 

I show my dog but because it is fun. I show him if he is a little skinny, a little fat, out of coat, ears chewed by flies, a gangly teenager...I don't care about the rating, it's just a fun thing to do, travel around with friends.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

None of us here is INTERESTED in a VA rating, selzer. Under todays judges it wouldn't mean a hill of beans (except that we could start making a lot of money selling puppies.) Would I like the virtually perfect score in all 3 phases of the National SchH championship Lord vom Gleisdreieck achieved in the 80's in East Germany? (Before the wall came down....) Heck, YES!!!

________________________________________________

Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Lies, was this question (about going to Sieger Shows) directed to me? Not sure because I normally don't go by "Sue" (not a problem though!) The answer is no - I've been so put off by what I've been told by friends who have gone over the past few years ( and what I've been able to scrounge up on YouTube and other sources) that it didn't seem worth the money. And not just bad protection work - Siegers that didn't even have a progeny group (Larus), dogs that were oversized (Larus again, and lots of others, because the judge, Erich Orschler, liked them big. He had a political interest in Larus too of course, being the breeder!) Broken toplines (this year's Youth Sieger, hideous) and roached backs. Poor progeny groups. Some gorgeous individuals in there too, and there is no denying the beauty of those dogs - but I wouldn't actually pay money to go see just that. 

My last but one SchH dog was a long coat (GASP!) showline. Not the toughest dog on the field, but he never shirked anything, never ran from the helper, never had a problem with the stick hits. Had a good solid bite in the middle of the sleeve, no chewing or coming off it. His OB was beautiful, his tracking very good. He loved it all and was just happy to do whatever he was asked to do, as long as you were along for the ride. I miss that boy, he died in 2006.....

____________________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No, that was a question to Sue/selzer. If she takes an issue with the worst dogs being compiled into a video...I am simply saying that if she were to attend a Sieger show and watch ALL the dogs, she that the majority of dogs are sub-par so these criticisms are not simply based on half a dozen of the worst dogs.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

OK good - somehow I didn't think it was for me but I wasn't sure!!

_____________________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

It sure would be nice to see a good showline get high ratings in schH.







Go for it Lies! *hint hint*


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hey, have two questions...don't know ANYTHING about these kinds of trials (if that's what they're called).

what is the purpose of the stick that the person whips back and forth over the dog?

is the injury rate for these dogs high? man when i got to the ones that were flying thru the air and then body-slamming to the gound i had to stop watching. seems kind of brutal.

thanks!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The stick hits test the courage of the dog, test to see if he will hold his grip and keep the fight while the helper drives him. The stick itself is not very hard. The ones I've played with at vendors were flexible and covered with something like soft leather or shammy material. When I hit myself it felt more like being whacked with the tube from a paper towel roll than a wooden stick. For dogs that lack confidence and fight, I think the action of the stick held high and being waved over the dog is as much of a challenge as the actual hit. You will see some dogs peel off the sleeve, but see others get run off by the helper and stick before they even bite. 

Not sure about the injury rate, but sometimes the dogs have to be "swung" around depending on how fast they come and at what angle. Sometimes that is better for the helper and dog, as long as the helper knows what they are doing and sets the dog down correctly. Some helpers do it more for show which I think is unnecessary because it can be dangerous if the dog is not set down right.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also I forgot to say that not every swipe is an actual hit, I think the dogs get 2-3 hits, so mostly you are seeing the stick waving over the dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: katieliz
> 
> is the injury rate for these dogs high? man when i got to the ones that were flying thru the air and then body-slamming to the gound i had to stop watching. seems kind of brutal.
> 
> thanks!


I don't know the real rate, to be honest, but not nearly as high as you may supposse. It was better discussed in another tread I can't find, but the swung on the air is actually to prevent injury. the body slamming of the Spanish dog is something you never really see, bad movement from the helper.

But you have to understand that those dogs ARE HAVING A BLAST!!! They are doing what they love to do the most on the world, they are passionate about biting and psychologically and physiologically they are no feeling real pain. Imagine a bunch of teenagers playing or skating, they may be rough, they may hurt themselves, but they really don't care because the excitement is so high and the fun so much that a scratch or a bump are nothing compared with how much they love it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

And if the dog really *is* injured, it should not be out there working. We have a younger dog in our club that came out and did several bites just find, but the helper stopped and wanted to see him walk, sure enough he was limping a bit, but showed no other signs of pain (still barking and lunging, wanting more work). Helper said put him up and rest him for a few days. Good helpers, owners, and competitors should not be pushing dogs that show signs of injury. If you look at trial results you will often see a dog "pulled for injury" after one or two phases, or dogs that become injured and don't show up at all. However there are cases where a dog has never shown a sign of injury and continued working (and the injury shows up later on x-rays or some other exam).


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