# Male or Female, Working or Show Lines ?



## COSprings_John (Oct 18, 2013)

apologies in advance for the long post...

A little history behind my previous companion, Ripley, whom passed away 2 months ago now.

Ripley was my first ever dog, I had not had any previous experience with dogs growing up. She was a rescue puppy from my mother-in-law, a boxer/german shepherd little "darling", well, if 75 lbs is little once she was fully grown! 

She certainly had both the family and companion dog merits I was looking for in my first dog. She loved to be around people and was especially gentle around young children and our household cats. She showed no food aggression. 

She had ball/play/prey drive off the charts – rarely could a “small” critter make it across our back yard intact, Ripley had a special fondness for squirrels, birds and especially rabbits! We had to remove our squirrel and bird feeders as she would lie in wait for her victims to arrive. The mere sight of a ball would drive her crazy and if that ball was “hidden” or “out of sight” she would then search for it constantly. 

“Give” was not a word in her vocabulary – “MY” ball. Tug-of-war was another game she loved though I now realize that perhaps that wasn’t the best of pastimes for me to have indulged her with, especially when she was young. 

Ripley was “alpha” dog with all dogs in her domain and she could be very aggressive when meeting new dogs. She did have a few regular household doggie visitors she was good with, especially a female lab that stayed over with us often when her owners would go on vacation. She was also hyper territorial of our house and yard. If anyone even came close to our property she would bark though she would stop once we had arrived at the location to “look” at what the cause of the commotion was. 

Ripley was food motivated beyond belief and almost the model of doggie obedience so long as there was a “treat” involved. Off leash, she was often uncontrollable and she was also prone to “bolt” – so we always had to be extra vigilant around doorways, exiting the car, etc. 

Ironically I used to think she would be a great guard dog for the house (don't many owners?), defending the property against actual intruders. The one time we did have someone enter the house, when we were away, she barked a lot and then went and hid under the maser bed (dog commando crawl extraordinaire) and wouldn't come out. Poor Ripley - all bark and no bite, which as it turned out, was a good thing – our unexpected visitor was a friend who had keys to the house and was stopping by to drop something off unannounced. 

I realize, that many of Ripley’s behavioral issues were MY own fault, from a lack of training as a puppy and a lack of socialization. As my wife reminds me, a lack of consistency as well on my behalf. Yes, we went to puppy training classes – I also admit, yes, we got kicked out about 6 lessons in as Ripley was a bit too “boisterous” for them with the other puppies. I should have found another trainer, or even gotten private lessons if need be! 

Don’t get me wrong, Ripley was my beloved companion and friend for 12 years. For her last 3+ years we battled with myesthia gravis / megasophagus and spent most of our savings on her treatments and medications.


So, with all that said, what am I looking for now in a prospective new GSD puppy ? 

A family dog, companion, friend, protector first. Medium levels of rank, defense, prey drive with a slightly higher, but not extreme, pack drive. Must be clear in the head (certainly come from parents that are), good nerves. As he/she will be spending quite a bit of time outdoors with me, fishing, camping, being safe around nature is a must (somewhat a coin flip with prey drive!) – I realize some of this will come from temperament and lots of obedience training. 

I may want to participate in agility trials, maybe fly-ball work (which looks like a lot of fun btw) with my companion once obedience training is up to par. Obedience training will be #1 on my priority list for both new puppy and myself. 

It is possible I may consider some protection work down the road if both a prospective trainer, myself, and puppy are suitable for those activities. (for reference, I have been the victim of burglary in the past, sadly, not something you ever seem to get over!). Perhaps a companion dog with reasonable drive, courage, and natural protective instincts would suffice?

I truly believe in research, research and research and as a result have scoured these forums and the web for information in helping with my quest. I am prone to over research things, go figure ! 

In closing, I am having a hard time trying to determine whether a German working line or show Line, male or female would be the best fit for myself and my family. I have now opened my heart to the possibility or either sex, with the temperament of the puppy being of more importance. I also know that our new GSD puppy must come from a reputable breeder, with parentage that displays the traits and qualities we are looking for, OFA/Hip certified etc.

Once I can nail down the type line and the sex preference, that will greatly assist in my future research and breeder choices. 

I appreciate that perhaps the "right" dog from either line could work - but what would "stack" the puppy odds in my favor....?

John


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Based upon what you have written I would say you are looking for a working line dog with solid nerve.

I like the females, but I've owned males too. I think the female attention span is better, but that will vary with the individual dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

MichaelE said:


> Based upon what you have written I would say you are looking for a working line dog with solid nerve.
> 
> I like the females, but I've owned males too. I think the female attention span is better, but that will vary with the individual dog.


I agree with that. And I prefer the females (size wise, theoretically the females are smaller which would help in agility  ) but that is a big debate with everyone knowing what they know !! 

No matter WHAT lines you go with, really make sure you are familiar with all the information in ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html Because the best breeders will be much more likely to take you seriously and consider you for one of their precious pups if they know YOU are serious about the breed and have done your homework. We don't have to be vast experts in everything, but when we get inviewed for a pup it's amazing how fast the responsible breeders can feel out the people that are taking this serious and doing the work to really know if a GSD is the right dog for us (or not  ).

Good luck!


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

As far as working or show lines, the two show line dogs I've met in our meetup group are fantastic dogs in every way except for protection. They may be from the same breeder. They are athletic, stable temperaments, dogs you can take anywhere. After meeting them I wanted one. So the show line dogs I've met would be great for dog sports or agility.

Working line would be for protection. These dogs are naturally protective, and IMO, females a little more protective than males, but from my experience and from what others have written, not as cuddly as males. We love our females though, and so far have not been interested in males. This is coming from two girly girl owners (my adult daughter and myself).

Another reason we've opted for females is that we've met many large breed dog owners our walks and the ones with male dogs said their dogs often get challenged by other male dogs of any size. So they are often relieved to know our dog is female so the dogs can have a safe meet and greet.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think as long as find a good breeder who knows their lines well and you are completely honest with the breeder about what you're looking for and what your goals are (and I think you have a very good idea of what you want, and have articulated it quite well), you can find a suitable puppy from any lines. That being said, I'd probably go with a working line pup based on the criteria you've listed. I don't think you necessarily need to decide up front between a male or a female unless you've got your heart set on a particular gender, and it sounds like you don't. 

I have a female working line girl who is in the 56/58 pound range (perfect for agility, which we don't do, and flyball, which we do!), and she is much more intense and "scary" than my 80 pound German showline male. She may be smaller, but she has a serious bark. My dogs are a great deterrent, which is all I would expect of them. Keeping an open mind about gender will open up your possibilities since the best dog for you in a particular litter could be either male or female. Good luck! (And yes, do check out flyball!!!!)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Regarding just the protection aspect - My female WGSL is very protective. Would she have made a top level IPO dog? Most likely not. Yet when my trainer tested her in the house she sure as heck did not crawl under the bed and she's got nice deep confident bark too! She loves her pack, is intensely loyal and a cuddle bug too.

Other then that, what Cassidy's Mom said ...although... I am admittedly not knowledgeable about agility but I have friend the competes with a big male Black Russian Terrier in agility and has many wins! That dog is a moose!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

if you want a protection dog/deterrent to criminals i'd make sure the dog is high in defense and civil aggression. you want the dog to be aloof and suspicious of strangers. they dont run up to strangers tail wagging asking to play. imo not only will these dogs bark and alert but they are much more likely to bite in the presence of a real threat. 

we rarely lock our front door during the day and one day my sisters friend came over and just decided to walk in. my dog charged the door barking his deep bark. i was napping and by the time i got to the door he was still barking and wouldnt move an inch from the front door. he didnt just automatically bite but he wouldnt let her set foot inside the house until i called him back to me.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Truth is...the type of protection you want, you'd get out of any GSD. A big dog that likes to bark and will deter people from coming into your home or coming near you when you're walking your dog. I'm assuming the reason your friend entered the house was because he knew your dog...if it was a true criminal, he probably would've entered the house next door after hearing your dog bark or seeing what you had inside.

If you're not 100% going to work Schutzhund or some other protection sport. You don't NEED a working line dog. Sure, working lines are a lot of fun. Generally more energy, more drive, and more willingness to do things. But at the same time I will admit that if my boy doesn't get enough exercise for like 3 or 4 days straight, he starts bouncing off walls. So...weather gets bad for a few days, he's not a very happy camper.

I'd have to say that with any working line you really want to make an effort to work them on a weekly basis. Work them somewhere outside the home, in higher level work than just regular pet obedience. I think if you want to really compete in agility or flyball you'd need a working line, but a show line would probably do just as well...maybe not as fast or flashy, but they'll do it. On top of that a show line will probably settle a little better in the house during stretches of time when you don't work it.

Either dog would be wonderful for your family and will do what you ask of it. A lot of it will come down to the training you are willing to put into either dog. I'd probably suggest a female as they grow up/mature a bit quicker and are a little more family oriented. A male will stay young for a while and they like to connect with one person a bit more than females do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I disagree. I love both show and working lines but in my experience the show lines are no more "settled" in the house. Often they have a nervy edge and that's how it manifests itself, the dog acts more mentally "hyper". Less drive does not mean the dog is mentally stable and more settled. I've met plenty of dogs - SL and WL - that to me are downright neurotic. Not enough of a pattern to say one line is "better" than the other. It all depends on the breeding.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I disagree. I love both show and working lines but in my experience the show lines are no more "settled" in the house. Often they have a nervy edge and that's how it manifests itself, the dog acts more mentally "hyper". Less drive does not mean the dog is mentally stable and more settled. I've met plenty of dogs - SL and WL - that to me are downright neurotic. Not enough of a pattern to say one line is "better" than the other. It all depends on the breeding.


 
For the most part I agree with this. Most people see the neurotic behavior and think it's drive when it's not. In my experience, I have seen more Neurotic behaviors out of SL making them harder to settle in the house than WL's. Like Lies said, it all depends on the breeding. Both lines can be like this. 

Male or female depends on you. Males are more forgiving if you make a mistake. Female remember everything and hold grudges. So IMO females take more patience. Both can be protective, and both can be cuddly. With Females, I also don't like dealing with Heat cycles.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> (size wise, theoretically the females are smaller which would help in agility  )


Yeah, that's really the only thing that sticks out to me.

Everything else the OP describes could, I think, be found pretty easily in either line or either gender. For flyball and agility -- both of which heavily favor smaller dogs, especially over the course of a long career and _especially_ if you're planning to compete at any level and not just play for fun -- I'd lean toward working lines and particularly females.

But if you just want to dabble in the sports then, again, either gender and either line can do what you want. Just look for a breeder whose dogs are titled in some working venue (ideally, multiple venues).


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Really, as long as you choose a reputable breeder of either line you should get what you seek. Any German Shepherd, bred well, should have the capability to do as you want. A good breeder will select a puppy for you that best fits your needs, so go with someone experienced.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also for flyball, and maybe agility as well, it's not only the smaller size that might help but avoiding heavy boned lines and looking for conformation that is more short coupled.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

IMHO and basing my admittedly limited knowledge of dog conformation on horse conformation when it comes to speed (and if I'm wrong in this theory let me know) the working lines do tend to have conformation that lends itself to more speed, especially sprinting.

I compare them roughly to a Quarter Horse (WL) vs Thoroughbred (SL) in general movement styles. One built more for sprinting another more for a long ground covering gait and distance.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Speed is relative though. Do you mean just running straight out on a flat course, like a lure course? That's a lot different than the speed needed for flyball (where the dog really needs to have their feet touch the ground as many times as possible and NOT over jump the jumps since hang time in the air = slow) or agility, where the previous is also true plus the dog needs to be able to extend and collect depending on the course and the obstacle. Dogs that could win a recall or long bite contest aren't necessarily going to be the "fastest" dog in flyball or agility. We've got this new Border Collie on my flyball team and BCs are of course known for their speed in agility. In flyball they are fairly common though many people are surprised that they typically are not the fastest dogs (those would be whippets, border staffies, and border whippets). However this BC is super fast not because she can run really fast in a straight line but because she comes off the box SUPER low and has almost no arc over the jumps. She gets her feet on the ground right off the box so she can use the maximum amount of strides and then she has zero extra hang time over each jump. That's what makes her fast, not just the power and acceleration sprinting. What aspects of speed matter to the OP depend on the sport/venue and the desired level of competition.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I'd say go with a female from either lines and go through a reputable breeder. 

From what I have seen and heard from others (friends/family/co workers) men tend to do better with female dogs and women tend to do better with male dogs.

I know several couples that have both male and female dogs and it's men/female and women/male in their house.

JMO


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Very interesting. 

Similar with Quarterhorse, they are fast out of the gate but have a shorter stride. This gives them a greater burst of speed over the short haul.

The TB is more of a distance runner and they are known as 'daisy clippers' because their long low stride conserves energy where a QH would fade.

Also QH are more agile, which is why they are the breed of choice for cutting cattle, they are quick on their feet. Yet when it comes to true marathons in the horse world usually Arabians are the best. It all ties back to the conformational differences.

It would be interesting to test this with groups of dogs (SL & WL) where dogs in both groups are healthy and well conditioned on designated courses to see where each group generally falls out in speed, agility and longer distance too.





Liesje said:


> Speed is relative though. Do you mean just running straight out on a flat course, like a lure course? That's a lot different than the speed needed for flyball (where the dog really needs to have their feet touch the ground as many times as possible and NOT over jump the jumps since hang time in the air = slow) or agility, where the previous is also true plus the dog needs to be able to extend and collect depending on the course and the obstacle. Dogs that could win a recall or long bite contest aren't necessarily going to be the "fastest" dog in flyball or agility. We've got this new Border Collie on my flyball team and BCs are of course known for their speed in agility. In flyball they are fairly common though many people are surprised that they typically are not the fastest dogs (those would be whippets, border staffies, and border whippets). However this BC is super fast not because she can run really fast in a straight line but because she comes off the box SUPER low and has almost no arc over the jumps. She gets her feet on the ground right off the box so she can use the maximum amount of strides and then she has zero extra hang time over each jump. That's what makes her fast, not just the power and acceleration sprinting. What aspects of speed matter to the OP depend on the sport/venue and the desired level of competition.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

LaRen616 said:


> From what I have seen and heard from others (friends/family/co workers) men tend to do better with female dogs and women tend to do better with male dogs.
> 
> I know several couples that have both male and female dogs and it's men/female and women/male in their house.
> 
> JMO


This really depends on the man, the dog and what their goals are with the dog. Over the years I have found that most men do best with male dogs with fewer having the personalities to deal with females. This can also be true for the opposite sexes. I work best with females. I have handled two males and while both were very good dogs I did not enjoy working either.

I have found both sexes very affectionate and cuddly. Both make excellent companions though males maybe go with the flow better and fit better into multi dog households. Females tend to think more and, as a friend and I often joke, there is a reason they are called "bitches".  

I have working lines and have owned them for almost 30 years. Their temperaments and drive level can vary widely and many make excellent family companions even in homes that aren't hiking 5 miles a day. You just have to find the right breeder who knows their lines well and is able to pick out the correct puppy.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I prefer males but that's basically because I don't want to deal with heat cycles. A lot of the sports I do won't allow a female in heat to participate, plus already having an intact male, just...no! lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Also QH are more agile, which is why they are the breed of choice for cutting cattle, they are quick on their feet. Yet when it comes to true marathons in the horse world usually Arabians are the best. It all ties back to the conformational differences.


QH also tend to be bred for specialty areas with the racing bred horses, most often having a heaving influence of TB breeding; the show/conformation lines and then the working ranch/cutting/reining lines. The older style horses bred for cutting and reining would be the better animals to use as comparison. Able to go for long periods of time at a slow steady gait, able to turn on a dime, give quick bursts of speed, stop, spin and take off again, the true versatile working animal (and, no, this was not my breed, but I can still appreciate their versatility).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Liesje said:


> I prefer males but that's basically because I don't want to deal with heat cycles. A lot of the sports I do won't allow a female in heat to participate, plus already having an intact male, just...no! lol


Very true, but I would also say that the majority of the dogs participating in many of the sports you participate are spayed/neutered.

Female dogs in heat being treated as though they have the plague has irritated me for years. They are permitted in the conformation ring, but not in the performance events where the dogs should be even better trained. Sorry, off topic.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Speed is relative though. Do you mean just running straight out on a flat course, like a lure course? That's a lot different than the speed needed for flyball (*where the dog really needs to have their feet touch the ground as many times as possible and NOT over jump the jumps since hang time in the air = slow)* or agility


I wonder how true this is? I used to think that too, but as long as they can gather themselves and turn quickly I'd think more time in the air would equal faster times.

Being on the ground creates resistance that resistance must be overcome with power. Recently saw a very interesting show on humans and speed. With high speed cameras and high tech treadmills that can measure force etc, they showed that the speed at which humans repositioned their legs to "run" was the same.

That's right, the same. I move my legs as fast as Usain Bolt, at least according to this show I watched. They had a world class sprinter from one of the colleges and the host of the show and an older lady all running on this treadmill and what they showed kind of went against everything I ever thought about running. 

It has very little to do with how fast your legs move because they move as fast when you're suspended in the air as everyone else, but the force directed into the ground was much much higher in faster sprinters because they generated more force, they overcame more friction and spent more time in the air and less on the ground, thus they move much faster.

So I wonder if it's the same with a quadruped?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Very true, but I would also say that the majority of the dogs participating in many of the sports you participate are spayed/neutered.
> 
> Female dogs in heat being treated as though they have the plague has irritated me for years. They are permitted in the conformation ring, but not in the performance events where the dogs should be even better trained. Sorry, off topic.


Most are but mine won't be, I don't like to early s/n unless I'm adopting a rescue (in which case it's already done so I can't argue for an extension). If I wait then that's 2+ years of dealing with heat cycles having intact males around (and I do not have kennels or dog rooms or crating areas) and times when we cannot train or compete.

I also don't get the hostility towards it, but at the same time if I had an intact bitch in heat I'd probably be too paranoid to let her off leash around the other dogs (such is the nature of some of the sports I do). I'm too much of a worry-wart! I can control my dogs but I can't speak for anyone else's.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

crackem said:


> I wonder how true this is? I used to think that too, but as long as they can gather themselves and turn quickly I'd think more time in the air would equal faster times.


In flyball it's definitely true. I have a small dog I am training right now. I got her as a rescue (pound reject, was going to be euth'd) but conformationally she looks just like any flyball-bred Border Staffy. In short, she's built for it. Our biggest problem right now is that she's getting too much air time off the box and too much height over the jumps. She would run a 3.7 no problem but if I train her the way she naturally strides and jumps she'll probably run more like a 4.0-4.2 (tenths of a second are like minutes in flyball). That is with the *same* amount of strides each way. If I can get her lower off the box and less air time over the jumps she will run faster times. Dogs are faster on the ground than in the air. 

ETA: this is also why the world record times in U-FLI are faster than NAFA. NAFA measures jump height differently so the exact same team often runs higher jumps in NAFA. Their times are slower. Our standard team jumps 8" in U-FLI but 11" in NAFA and it absolutely slows down the smaller dogs. My dog not so much since either jump is more like a skip to him.

As far as agility goes, your last statement doesn't really work. Dogs that have a lot of extension (stretch over jumps and hang in the air) often make huge wide turns and lose a lot of time and space on a tighter course. They need to arc over a jump only as much as necessary and be able to collect themselves if you want a fast dog on tighter, difficult courses.

This is just talking about competing at a higher level though. If the OP's intent is to just participate, really any healthy GSD from any line can do agility or flyball.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Wouldn't it be relatively the same as motocross? Being able to come into a jump as fast as you can and keeping your trajectory as low as possible?


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

so dogs are different than humans in that more time on the ground, requiring more force generated and must encounter more resistance equals more speed?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lhczth said:


> This really depends on the man, the dog and what their goals are with the dog. Over the years I have found that most men do best with male dogs with fewer having the personalities to deal with females. This can also be true for the opposite sexes. I work best with females. I have handled two males and while both were very good dogs I did not enjoy working either.
> 
> I have found both sexes very affectionate and cuddly. Both make excellent companions though males maybe go with the flow better and fit better into multi dog households. Females tend to think more and, as a friend and I often joke, there is a reason they are called "bitches".
> 
> I have working lines and have owned them for almost 30 years. Their temperaments and drive level can vary widely and many make excellent family companions even in homes that aren't hiking 5 miles a day. You just have to find the right breeder who knows their lines well and is able to pick out the correct puppy.


My friends/family/co workers don't own GSDs. They own Dobermans, Beagles, Shiba Inus, Akitas, GSD/Husky mix, etc. They all seem to be the same way, men/female dogs and women/male dogs. 

*I* have personally seen it so much that *I* believe it. I don't know if there is any truth to it, I just know it's what I see around me. :shrug:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You can't accelerate in the air, but you can on the ground. I don't know the physics behind it but I see it several times a week in training. If dogs were faster in the air, why are the smaller breeds like whippets, border staffies, and border jacks the fastest dogs in flyball when dogs like GSDs or bigger can take much longer strides?


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't know, how come I can move my legs as fast as Usain bolt, yet I look like I'm standing still running with him?

Acceleration happens rather quickly, it seems to be momentum that carries us thru, I imagine it's similar in animals, i don't know for sure, but it makes a lot of sense. After acceleration, it's momentum that is maintained by putting force into the ground that causes the person or animal to stay suspended in air longer, thus moving faster over all, or slowing down less, while they are on the ground. 

I didn't make up the physics, I'm trying to understand how dogs are different, if indeed they are


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know either, because I'm not talking about sprinting on the flat. That was my initial point. People who don't actually do agility or flyball think it's just about a dog running fast in a straight line and that's really not it at all. That's why I said a dog could win a rapid recall or fast long bite contest but not be the fastest GSD in agility or flyball. What do you think you could do faster, run 110 meters or hurdle 110 meters? If you say dogs are faster in the air to me that's like saying you can actually run a hurdle race faster than a sprint of the same distance. I don't really think so. If we are comparing you to Usain Bolt, the better analogy with dogs would be comparing a GSD to a Whippet, not comparing running flyball or agility courses to just running flat out. The difference between us and Usain is a combination of conformation, training, and drive. The same would be true for dogs. Also Usain is running, not jumping. I bet if he actually jumped with every stride he would be slower.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

and like I said in specifics to flyball, gathering and being able to make the turn is a big deal and changing your line of acceleration obviously needs feet on the ground. A hurdle race has hurdles above my hips, flyball has hurdles about 6 inches off the ground for a big dog  They are hardly jumping.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

a well bred german show line from a good breeder should have good protection, it just depends where he is getting his dog from, there are plenty of working lines out there with no real protection, actually i dont know how many you will find working dog wise local that carry real protection drives. The best breeders I see mostly online. 

For family pet id say german show lines or ddr working lines (just personally) from a good breeder that breeds for good protection. I would not look too much into sch lines. Look at the parents the whole package.

The ddr dogs i met in person seem to be calmer dogs and seem to make great pets JMHO


the american showlines seem a bit nervy and skitish and more barky


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

True, a lot of appendix QHs racing now, but they still have the fast burst of speed out of the gate and shorter stride compared to most TBs. They still can't hold the distance of many TBs. 

I owned an old foundation QH born in Mexico ended up neglected in a field in central FL where someone rescued him but could not keep him. My great luck! He was referred to as the 'bulldog' type and I did turn back work and sorting cattle out for the next practice sessions with a cutting horse. He was an awesome all round ranch type horse LOVED that cow pony......so much. What a horse but I digress. 



lhczth said:


> QH also tend to be bred for specialty areas with the racing bred horses, most often having a heaving influence of TB breeding; the show/conformation lines and then the working ranch/cutting/reining lines. The older style horses bred for cutting and reining would be the better animals to use as comparison. Able to go for long periods of time at a slow steady gait, able to turn on a dime, give quick bursts of speed, stop, spin and take off again, the true versatile working animal (and, no, this was not my breed, but I can still appreciate their versatility).


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Interesting question!

I'll toss this tidbit in quadraped-wise, look at cheetahs, they can accelerate AND turn very quickly. They have a very long stride where the hind paws over reach the front paw print (space) a great deal. Yet a longer backed dog may not be so agile because the Cheetah has an exceptionally flexible spine that bows upwards when the hind legs reach under for thrust.

So I *think* that perhaps some of the difference isn't height but the thrust either into a stride or a jump. Too much air time does slow forward momentum.....it would seem because there is no thrust when airborne.




crackem said:


> and like I said in specifics to flyball, gathering and being able to make the turn is a big deal and *changing your line of acceleration obviously needs feet on the ground*. A hurdle race has hurdles above my hips, flyball has hurdles about 6 inches off the ground for a big dog  They are hardly jumping.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

pets4life said:


> a well bred german show line from a good breeder should have good protection, it just depends where he is getting his dog from, there are plenty of working lines out there with no real protection, actually i dont know how many you will find working dog wise local that carry real protection drives. The best breeders I see mostly online.
> 
> For family pet id say german show lines or ddr working lines (just personally) from a good breeder that breeds for good protection. I would not look too much into sch lines. Look at the parents the whole package.
> 
> ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Too much air time does slow forward momentum.....it would seem because there is no thrust when airborne.


Yep, makes perfect sense to me!! 

Of course, different dogs/species/people/breeds will have varying effectiveness in their "thrust" each time their feet DO hit the ground, hence why some dogs are faster than others. But generally speaking, hang time in the air is lag time. Sometimes you can train a dog not to do that and sometimes you can't, either because their conformation does not allow it or it's not natural for them and no amount of training will "fix" it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

crackem said:


> and like I said in specifics to flyball, gathering and being able to make the turn is a big deal and changing your line of acceleration obviously needs feet on the ground. A hurdle race has hurdles above my hips, flyball has hurdles about 6 inches off the ground for a big dog  They are hardly jumping.


See my previous posts. Some of the fastest dogs in flyball are small, short dogs! The lower your height the faster all the dogs can run, which again says air time = slow time. What is comparable to a hurdle being hip height? When we run 11" that is basically the wither/shoulder height of some of the dogs. We don't have any height dogs at 6" so we don't get to run that low unless we're training puppies. This is why "height dogs" are so desirable in flyball. The lower the jump, the faster everyone runs. True it makes less difference to a dog like a GSD but it does make a difference and in flyball, hundredths of a second matter.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Interesting question!
> 
> 
> 
> So I *think* that perhaps some of the difference isn't height but the thrust either into a stride or a jump. Too much air time does slow forward momentum.....it would seem because there is no thrust when airborne.


and that makes complete sense, you can't accelerate positively if you can't put force to the ground. But once you're at top speed, which for animals and humans, happens in a relatively short period of time. I think I read greyhounds reach top speed in about 5 strides? I could be wrong on that number.

but anyway, agility, I can totally see how feet on the ground would result in faster times. for Flyball? I have a lot more questions about it. a lot of the bigger dogs aren't breaking stride or anything going over jumps, so they're accelerating or maintaining. are they able to get top speed in that short time? do small dogs get to top speed faster? I'm sure there's a point that it's diminishing, but where is it?

There's way more to being fast than size. I have to relate it to people, it's the biomechanics I know, I just assume it's similar in dogs.

But once top forward speed is achieved, it's not about creating forward force, it's about creating downward force that keeps you in the air longer, thus slowing you down less. 

The guys winning the 100 M sprints often aren't any faster than many others, they just slow down the least by the end of the race  Some of that is due to stride length, because they spend more time on the ground after top speed is reached, thus create more friction and slow down more. Some run out of oxygen in their muscles faster and slow down quicker, there are a lot of reasons to win or lose a race. 

I just don't buy the the argument that some dogs are faster because they can put their feet on the ground more which only is essential in accelerating and changing direction.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Liesje said:


> See my previous posts. Some of the fastest dogs in flyball are small, short dogs! The lower your height the faster all the dogs can run, which again says air time = slow time. What is comparable to a hurdle being hip height? When we run 11" that is basically the wither/shoulder height of some of the dogs. We don't have any height dogs at 6" so we don't get to run that low unless we're training puppies. This is why "height dogs" are so desirable in flyball. The lower the jump, the faster everyone runs. True it makes less difference to a dog like a GSD but it does make a difference and in flyball, hundredths of a second matter.


They might be small short dogs, air time doesn't = slow time, because there is a definite point where ground time slows you down, using your logic, we should all just drag our feet? more time on the ground equals faster right? 

I think there are other factors at work than small equals fast in flyball.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would bet money that my GSDs speed would actually increase if the runback lane was longer and there were 5 more feet between the jump and the box. Then he could triple stride between the jump and the box and not have to launch on/off the box in order to not stutter step or break the stride coming in. I do not think a breed like a GSD is reaching top speed on a flyball lane.

Why do you think smaller dogs are faster in flyball? I'm not being argumentative, I'm curious. The fastest dogs in flyball are Border Staffies, Border Whippets, and Whippets. These dogs all weigh like 35lbs or less.

When I say hang time in the air slows the dogs down I'm not really talking stride. Some dogs tend to jump way higher than they need to and other dogs don't jump at all, like the jumps are in the middle of their stride and it barely changes. The length of the stride is the same because the dog can take off and land at the same point but either jump high/arc high in the air or jump really flat. The latter will be faster.

Also a lot of dogs come off the box too high and/or push too far into the lane. We use props to get the dog's head low and force their feet back on the ground. You don't want huge launches off the box, wastes time. My team mate worked this stride off the box and her dog started running almost a half second faster.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

crackem said:


> using your logic, we should all just drag our feet? more time on the ground equals faster right?


Right because dragging our feet is the same as pushing ourselves forward :crazy:

Is there a point at which a GSDs ground speed will surpass a Whippet if they are both running flat out? I don't think so. The Whippet is pretty much the standard as far as speed when it comes to the conformation of a dog. I trained and ran the fastest GSD in flyball and I don't think he could outrun a good Whippet even if we quadrupled the distance and removed the jumps, assuming that the flyball lane is not enough space for a GSD to reach their max. speed.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't think of of the space is important except for the turns. I don't think being able to take more steps between hurdles makes any difference, especially for a dog that doesn't have to change stride at all to clear them. I think the more a dog has to alter mechanics to "jump" will slow down more over a dog that doesn't have to regardless of one 2 or 3 strides between hurdles. 

a dog weighing 35 lbs is going to probably get to speed faster and be easier to slow down, it's a momentum thing, it has nothing to do with how long their feet are on the ground. I don't buy feet on the ground being faster, because science is telling me it's not.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Right because dragging our feet is the same as pushing ourselves forward :crazy:
> 
> Is there a point at which a GSDs ground speed will surpass a Whippet if they are both running flat out? I don't think so. The Whippet is pretty much the standard as far as speed when it comes to the conformation of a dog. I trained and ran the fastest GSD in flyball and I don't think he could outrun a good Whippet even if we quadrupled the distance and removed the jumps, assuming that the flyball lane is not enough space for a GSD to reach their max. speed.


and pushing ourselves forward is NOT what we do when we run. It's important for the first few steps to create momentum, after that it is the downward pressure into the ground that propels us UPWARD giving us more time in the air between strides, as all of us (barring disability) move our legs at the same speed to re-position our legs, allowing our momentum to carry us forward without slowing down as much as others not able to generate that downward force. 
It's kind of been my point


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

crackem said:


> I don't think of of the space is important except for the turns. I don't think being able to take more steps between hurdles makes any difference, especially for a dog that doesn't have to change stride at all to clear them. I think the more a dog has to alter mechanics to "jump" will slow down more over a dog that doesn't have to regardless of one 2 or 3 strides between hurdles.
> 
> a dog weighing 35 lbs is going to probably get to speed faster and be easier to slow down, it's a momentum thing, it has nothing to do with how long their feet are on the ground. I don't buy feet on the ground being faster, because science is telling me it's not.


OK, well, when you train a GSD that can compete with the fastest dogs in flyball, come back to me and explain the science, or try to convince your local flyball club to swap their height dogs for GSDs.

Many a race is lost and won in the 15 feet between the jump and the box. A lot of the fastest dogs I know have turns that could be improved. The turn is very important, especially for a larger breed in terms of safety, but if you got into flyball you'd be surprised at some of the turns (bad) people compete with and the times they can put up.

You're basically saying the same thing. A GSD *does* have to alter the mechanics of their jump on/off the box because they have trouble with the strides between the jump and the box. For a normal sized GSD, 2 is slightly too few but 3 is virtually impossible. A lot of GSDs will slide a little bit or the second stride is a stutter. 15 feet is an awkward amount of space if you want them on and off low.

A normal sized GSD has a cramped stride over flyball jumps. Smaller dogs have it easier. They get more strides in that 15 to build the momentum and get 4 flat jumps. Too small and then they have to start double striding/stutter stepping between jumps which is slow and quite awkward unless the dog is very small like a tiny JRT or smaller and can actually do 2 real strides between jumps.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

ok, well when your dad can beat up my dad, come back and explain the science 

If I ever care to spend weekends and days on end teaching my dog to turn faster, maybe I will, until then I'm content having fun with my dogs in other ways. I was not arguing that a gsd is as fast as a whippet, I was arguing that feet on the ground more oftendoes not equal more speed, in fact in every other instance other than the initial positive acceleration it decreases it. 

You said this



> where the dog really needs to have *their feet touch the ground as many times as possible* and NOT over jump the jumps since hang time in the air = slow)


I disagreed and stated why, you seem to want to use every other argument, which is why I said they might be faster and equate it back to having their feet touch as many times as possible, which after the first few steps is doing exactly the opposite of making them "faster"

If a GSD is able to generate as much top speed as a whippet and the whippet has to take 4 steps to a GSD's 2 steps, then yes, the GSD will beat the whippet at some point. Like I said, there are lots of variables for "speed", putting your feet on the ground as many times as possible isn't a very big player.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well I stand by my statement. Running is faster than jumping. 3 strides on/off the box are better than 2. That's not to say there aren't some pretty fast dogs that can't/don't triple stride (I had a sub-4 second GSD, another member here has a 4.0 GSD, some other larger dogs can't do it), but if you look at the overall numbers and look at dogs running 3.4-3.8 seconds you're going to see the vast majority triple striding and you're not going to find a GSD or larger in that group of dogs. When passing in, it's better to give the dog some build up and have him running across the line and not jumping the line or jumping the returning dog (sounds silly but it happens). When the dog jumps the start line or the height dog they are losing space where they could have been running and accelerating into the jumps.

But anyway...again if the OP really wants to be competitive with agility or flyball, the issue isn't really going to be the lines or sex of the dogs but the breed. You can do flyball with any line GSD. At U-FLI Nationals two of the GSDs were WGSL and one looked like a mix of WGSL and WL.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

your statement wasn't running is faster than jumping, it was having your feet touch as many times as possible equals fast. Running isn't necessarily faster than jumping, but if I could reach top speed in 2 steps and jump, i would be running faster than you taking running the entire distance. That's the point.

It's not about how many steps you take, in fact, steps slow you down, time on the ground, slows you down, the more you feet have touch beyond the first couple, slow you down. That's not my opinion btw


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK, whatever, that is what I MEANT but you are pulling it to pieces, lol. I don't think it matters to the OP. We can agree to disagree. You can replace the top teams and give flyball seminars. *Top* speed isn't really relevant to my training because we don't achieve it in flyball or agility, and sometimes in flyball I actually hold my larger dogs back (figuratively speaking) because I don't really need them transferring all that force at top speed through a box turn. Another thing the OP might want to think about. The dog I trained who set the breed record three times is washed out, too big, not worth the risk (he will hopefully be qualifying for IPO nationals at his next trial next month). The longevity is also important to me. I got a different dog for flyball whose conformation is much more conducive to the sport in many, many ways. The longevity of a really fast GSD in flyball has not really been proven or tested. Looking at the database, the older GSDs or the ones that have competed for a long time never put up fast, competitive numbers and the GSDs I know competing now that are fast are all relatively young.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

now why on earth would I want to replace the top flyball teams and give seminars, because I saw some interesting stuff on going fast that flies in the face of what most people think is important in going fast and you don't like it?? 

'scuse me queen bee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't really understand what you're trying to say....if GSDs can run as fast as fast dogs, then....why don't they? The stats just don't support it and it's not because they aren't popular. I own GSDs and I train and compete in these sports so obviously I don't have a problem with it, but I'm also honest about my dogs' potential when we're talking about the top levels of competition.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

my God, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with GSD's. Sure size and weight are important, the turns, the everything else. I've said that, you said that. I was disagreeing with the point that I seem to hear over and over and over again that smaller dogs are better because they have their feet on the ground more often. in agility yes, because momentum and acceleration is always changing up and down. In flyball? I think weight probably has more to do with it than anything, then size to a degree and it has very little to do with how many times a dog can put it's feet on the ground.

again, you said this 



> That's a lot different than the speed needed for flyball (where the dog really needs to have their feet touch the ground as many times as possible and NOT over jump the jumps since hang time in the air = slow)


and this



> She gets her feet on the ground right off the box so she can use the maximum amount of strides and then she has zero extra hang time over each jump. That's what makes her fast, not just the power and acceleration sprinting.


and someone else said this



> *Too much air time does slow forward momentum*.....it would seem because there is no thrust when airborne.


to which you replied



> Yep, makes perfect sense to me!!


I had assumed you agreed with her.

and I disagree.

Once your forward momentum is generated, the amount of time you spend on the ground after that is detrimental to you maintaining that speed. that's not my opinion again.

If a dog can generate the same momentum as another breed of dog, and do it in fewer steps, it will move in that straight line faster. If it can gather and turn as fast as the other dog and head back the other way it will win.

if your BC example you say it's her being able to take more strides is what makes her fast, not just her power and acceleration, when in fact it is just the opposite. It is her power and acceleration that makes her fast, and if she could keep her feet off the ground more after that point, she would be faster. Again, not my opinion


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

crackem said:


> if your BC example you say it's her being able to take more strides is what makes her fast, not just her power and acceleration, when in fact it is just the opposite. It is her power and acceleration that makes her fast, and if she could keep her feet off the ground more after that point, she would be faster. Again, not my opinion


No, it's her keeping her jumps flat and her head low off the box that makes her flat. She can't fit any more or less strides than any other BC, 1 between each jump and 3 between the jump and the box. Since any dog her relative size and shape will have the same amount of strides, the fact that she's not in the air any longer than she has to is what makes her a cut above the rest. She's not "sticky" on the box and she doesn't arc high over the jumps. We changed up some of our box work and props after a seminar on using the turn to get more speed (not the turn itself but going in and coming off) and every single dog that did the work gained speed by bringing their head down and getting off the box quicker.


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## COSprings_John (Oct 18, 2013)

My thanks to everyone for their detailed replies!

Wow - holy canine flyball discussion batman! I had not anticipated perhaps the enthusiastic level of responses I would get to my post. This has been very helpful and informative.

So far, the “general” consensus appears to be a female working line dog could potentially be a good fit, depending upon temperament. I do personally tend to gravitate towards the girls, I had a great relationship with my former companion, Ripley, and with our female cat, Andromeda. My wife seems to get on better with our male cats – not sure if this is typical or not – could just be us. A show line dog could also meet our needs, male or female – depending upon temperament. 

I am quickly getting the impression that the key points are to find a reputable breeder. Form a relationship with. Ensure we are clear with our desires in a future dog – what could be a good fit for both our lifestyles and family. The breeder can then help us in picking out the best puppy that would best meet our goals.

I guess the next steps, aside from continuing to save up the funds for our new puppy, is to begin the research on breeders in the Colorado area. I know from the “looking for a breeder” sub-forum this also could be a very enthusiastic topic!

John


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL, sorry! Been on the brain lately as we are preparing a new team of "green" (young dogs) at our flyball club and trying to perfect all this stuff.

Another suggestion would be to visit clubs of the sports you might be interested in and see if there are GSDs. If you like what you see you can ask where the dogs are from and maybe there are some local breeders that are producing what you like. If you want to do sports and/or have an active companion, make sure to ask about health in the lines. Not just OFAs for the breeding sire and dam but find a breeder that really knows the lines and can speak to their health and longevity.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Liesje said:


> No, it's her keeping her jumps flat and her head low off the box that makes her flat. She can't fit any more or less strides than any other BC, 1 between each jump and 3 between the jump and the box. Since any dog her relative size and shape will have the same amount of strides, the fact that she's not in the air any longer than she has to is what makes her a cut above the rest. She's not "sticky" on the box and she doesn't arc high over the jumps. We changed up some of our box work and props after a seminar on using the turn to get more speed (not the turn itself but going in and coming off) and every single dog that did the work gained speed by bringing their head down and getting off the box quicker.


how do you bring something to light to someone that just doesn't want to see?

I guess dogs really do break the rules of physics. 

It has very little to do with taking the "maximum number of strides possible"

If dog A is generating X amount of force and B is generating X(2) but they are both BC's of the same size and weight, dog B will in fact spend more time in the air and have a longer stride length, take less steps and be faster. which is the opposite of what you're saying.

Or, if it takes dog C 5 steps to generate full momentum and dog D only takes 3 steps (both create the same top speed), what is going to determine who wins is how long is the race, who has more muscle capacity to do the work and slow down the least, and once that momentum is reached, who is spending the most time taking steps, because that dog will LOSE.

you keep wanting to compare a large dog to a small one and say, see, it's true. If you take a BC and a BC or a GSD and a GSD, the one that spends the less time with his feet on the ground and subsequently the most time with his feet in the air is the one that is going to win, all else being equal. 



That is of course if the laws of physics and human biomechanics are similar to those of dogs. I don't think having 4 legs makes it any different though.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am thinking that this is a miscommunication of the idea of air time. Air time not in stride, but over jumps. Air time over jumps - if a dog boings over a jump, they are kind of suspended in air, which means they lose a part of a second, do that x 8 jumps, and that is where you lose time. Air time over the ground, in terms of stride length, I have not watched that as closely and am trying to follow the science! 

Anyway, at about 13 seconds, you can see a very consistent dog: Videos - 2 Fast Fur U Flyball Team who does the boing - he is a good height dog, always does his job, but they had to work on that - he used to jump higher. At about 1:17 you can see him again and at least once more. He's a great dog! And they use him all the time because he will never mess up. But that hang time is what slows his times down. 

Boing!









I think that's what is happening here in terms of this discussion. I am enjoying this conversation even if you all are not so much - my former foster is running now averaging 4.6's and she is beautiful to watch - very graceful, and has the twisty Border Collie body (she's a mix of maybe Lab/BC maybe a teeny bit of GSD), and just glides over the top of jumps.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

COSprings_John said:


> I am quickly getting the impression that the key points are to find a reputable breeder. Form a relationship with. Ensure we are clear with our desires in a future dog – what could be a good fit for both our lifestyles and family. The breeder can then help us in picking out the best puppy that would best meet our goals.


Yep, that is pretty much it. 

Of course the trick is defining, and finding, a "reputable breeder." Much virtual ink has been spilled on that topic, as I imagine you've seen if you've ventured into the "Choosing a Breeder" subforum.

I'll give a hearty +1 to Liesje's suggestion about going to clubs and/or trials. It is always good to go and see things in person, although (as with everything else) the more you know, the more you'll see.

One thing that can be helpful when you go to an all-breed event is to talk to someone whose dog turns in a really impressive performance _and is not the breed you're considering_. In that situation you may have the opportunity to talk to someone who knows their stuff, has been around the dog world a while, and has nothing to sell you, so no motive to be anything but totally candid.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yup Jean, the higher the dog jumps up and over, the longer the dog is in the air. It takes more *time* to go farther up, and then come back down. The flatter the dog jumps, the better. That is why really springy dogs like my Indy (who is also training for high jumping) need more training to keep their heads low off the box and stride flat over jumps whereas the BC I mentioned who sometimes knocks bars in agility is awesome for flyball. Nikon has always been a good jumper in agility with good collection but he too tends to overjump in flyball, even though he's a GSD on an 8" team. If you watch the video of TNG setting the new world record over the weekend, you can see clearly how all of their dogs are almost (maybe even) scraping the jumps which look like 10", even though all the dogs are perfectly capable of clearing 50" jump heights. Physics or not there were no GSDs or large dogs (or even BCs!) on that team


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I thought I made that clear a while ago that I wasn't talking about jumping. Dogs that have to gather or "jump" are probably not competing by your standards any more than any other dog out there for fun. You kept saying it was the amount of steps they take, the more steps you take the faster and it's not. 

It's the point I made long ago that a dog that didn't have to jump but could just stride over this little hurdles would be faster, and the less steps they could do it in the better, and again you came back with, it was the number of steps. This had nothing to do with jumping. But if I could have the same forward momentum before I took a large leap, I still would move further and faster than a dog of the same forward momentum that needed to take 2 steps and stayed close to the ground.

Keep your variables the same, and you'll still see, a dog in the air longer will go faster.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Is this it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T3Nq3_utDg#t=50 I always laugh when I can't eye track a dog - it's unreal. 

Sorry to the OP - we can move this to flyball or leave it here.


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## COSprings_John (Oct 18, 2013)

JeanK, it's ok, can keep it here, not am I only getting assistance with my breed decision making I am getting an in depth education in flyball. The sport seems not only fun buy super competitive with genetics, physics, stride pattern theory and more !

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I personally would not get a GSD pup to train in flyball. They structurally are not cut out for the repetition and their body length alone is not designed for it. JMO...can they do it? Yes, but is it good for the structure?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

crackem said:


> a...flyball has hurdles about 6 inches off the ground for a big dog


Um, no.  Jump heights are based on the size of the dog, and in U-FLI are 6" minimum to 12" maximum. Jump heights in NAFA are 7" minimum to 14" maximum. Even as a "small" GSD (56/57 pounds), Halo's jump heights would be 12" and 14", depending on which organization sanctioned the tournament. 

Since the jump height for each team of 4 dogs is determined by the shortest on the team, many larger dogs do actually run over lower jumps since most clubs have several "height" dogs, but that's definitely not always the case. In the Touch N Go record setting heat from 10/26/13 that Jean posted a link to, they're racing over 10" jumps in U-FLI, with dogs that are all similar in size. 

Our club does NAFA tournaments more often than U-FLI, and we have three 7" height dogs and one 10" height dog, but not all clubs do, and I've seen teams racing over 14" jumps before.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

is gsd right dog for agility tho? just curious mine is too bulky legs are too short body is too big, she smashes into things so much. I know a lot of gsd excell in agility tho. Oh nm gsd is one of the top.


I always thought the dobies would be one of the best agility breeds. Or even mals?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

pets4life said:


> is gsd right dog for agility tho? just curious mine is too bulky legs are too short body is too big, she smashes into things so much. I know a lot of gsd excell in agility tho. Oh nm gsd is one of the top.
> 
> I always thought the dobies would be one of the best agility breeds. Or even mals?


If you really want to be ultra competitive at a high level in agility, a GSD won't get you there. Neither will a Dobie. They're just too big and built wrong for that sport. Also, a lot of the dogs in both breeds (particularly Dobies, at least the ones I tend to see) are pet lines these days, and the drive's been bred out of them. I know that high-drive Dobies _exist,_ but I've never seen one in person. They seem to be about as rare as red diamonds.

A small, fast Mal (or Terv) can be a top-level dog in agility... but if your absolute #1 priority is ruling the course, a BC is still the "safest" choice.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Ironically, after doing PSA for a couple of years with my dog, we are attending our first class on agility this weekend. Just for fun, no competitions or anything.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Merciel said:


> If you really want to be ultra competitive at a high level in agility, a GSD won't get you there. Neither will a Dobie. They're just too big and built wrong for that sport. Also, a lot of the dogs in both breeds (particularly Dobies, at least the ones I tend to see) are pet lines these days, and the drive's been bred out of them. I know that high-drive Dobies _exist,_ but I've never seen one in person. They seem to be about as rare as red diamonds.
> 
> A small, fast Mal (or Terv) can be a top-level dog in agility... but if your absolute #1 priority is ruling the course, a BC is still the "safest" choice.


It depends on venue. There are different agility organizations. Some have more open courses and others have tighter courses. Some courses are smaller, some are bigger. Also depends on what height you want your dog to jump. If I wanted to compete top notch I'd probably get a sporty smooth coat Border Collie, mostly because the size of a GSD is not doing it any favors so why deal with a larger, hairier dog if the *sport* is the priority, not the breed?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

It's true that different organizations have different course styles and spacing, and yep, height divisions do matter, but there's no agility organization I'm aware of where a GSD or a Dobie is going to be a top-level competitive dog, all else being equal (health, training level, handler's skill, etc.). No matter how structurally sound that dog is, or how much heart it's got, it just can't outrun the breeds whose builds favor that sport.

Plus everybody I know who's a hardcore agility nut competes in multiple organizations anyway.

I mean, ultimately I think you should pick the dog you love and can stand to live with, and who can do reasonably well in your sport(s) of choice... but it is a fact that if your absolute number-one priority is winning, then in some sports that is going to limit your breed choice.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree completely. The GSD is a jack of all trades but is probably never going to be top dog (consistently) at sports like agility or flyball. Doesn't mean you can't DO those sports or even get higher titles but if you want to be winning nationals in the fastest divisions or whatever, get a breed that can live up to those expectations, from a breeder that breeds for that. I LOVE doing agility and flyball with my GSDs but I'm not naive to think that they are going to compete with the best even if I did have the time and skills as a handler. As much as I love GSDs *and* dog sports, my heart dog is a fuzzy mutt who does nothing, lol.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Merciel said:


> I mean, ultimately I think you should pick the dog you love and can stand to live with, and who can do reasonably well in your sport(s) of choice... but it is a fact that if your absolute number-one priority is winning, then in some sports that is going to limit your breed choice.


:thumbup: I had never competed in any dog sport before I started racing Halo in flyball, and as it turns out I'm more competitive than I ever realized! BUT....that doesn't mean I expect her to keep up with the BCs, the Mals, the Tervs, and even some of the ACDs, I just want her to be the best that SHE can be. If that means she'll never break into the low 4s, so be it, but we're having a lot of fun together and she has a nice 4 footed box turn, which is more than many larger dogs can do, including the only other GSD that I know of in our region. And that also doesn't necessarily mean I'll ever get one of those other breeds in order to have a faster dog.


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## KelsCooke (Sep 13, 2013)

I'm getting my first GSD next year, but I do compete in agility with my little itty bitty tri-dog. 
There's a few GSDs that compete in my area (PA), in CPE. They are all beating BCs normally, as well as the field/performance Goldens. 
If I were to get a GSD for agility purposes (don't compete in flyball - not yet anyway), I would look for smaller, lighter boned dogs. Look at performance bred Border Collies, how they have a "whippet" like bone. It's safer on their joints.  

If you do go the Border Collie route for agility, feel free to PM me. I know breeders all over the country producing top dogs that aren't overbreeding like most of the big name breeders.

However, if you think that just because you get a BC you're going to get a winning dog, it's not going to happen. They need as much training as any other breed would!
And if you think the GSD is the breed for you, get one.  I'd rather be happy with the dog I purchased than regret it in a few years..


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