# Too Many Treats



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Way back in the old days when I was a boy, dogs were rarely given treats for behavior.
An occasional biscuit or table scrap for no particular reason was about it.

Now I want to say that I'm all for treats to train behaviors but I believe people are getting carried away with it. The treats should be stopped sometime soon after the behavior is learned.

I also question trying to solve behavior problems with food.

There are dogs at agility that won't move their butts if mommy or daddy doesn't have the treat at the ready.

We have low value, medium value, high value treats. Then there is super high value treats. Those are for when your dog wants to use the neighbors baby for a tug toy.

I think we lose the bond that comes from dogs wanting to please just because they really care about us.

I don't want my dog to just care about me because I'm a food/treat dispenser.

What happens when the going gets tough and there you are without your treat bag. Good Luck.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

My trainer believed in training with praise. That's how Wolfie learned. For some of his tricks I did persuade him with a treat to learn it. Sometimes he gets a treat and sometimes just a "good boy".


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Praise builds a stronger bond IMO.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Ya but Wolfie tries to pick up crossbreeds. /tease


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> The treats should be stopped sometime soon after the behavior is learned.


Well, _of course!_


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## Kath & Clan (Jun 6, 2012)

*I agree with you*

I do use treats to teach (lure) what I want them to do if it's not intuitive. In most learned situations i think that praise, vocal and physical, is enough and some behaviors/responses are simply expected and IMOpinion don't deserve treat or praise. Dogs can to be told, scolded or given that disapproving look they understand so well, if they do something unacceptable and then redirected, "no don't do that" does not crush their psyche. I was raised in an era when you just knew that it was a really bad idea to peeve your parents or any other authority figure and in my experience dogs understand this too. Momma dog didn't coddle them in that arena, and like kids, dogs do live up to your expectations and they do want to please.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Nikitta said:


> Ya but Wolfie tries to pick up crossbreeds. /tease


He's just a gigolo...


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

I keep treating after the behavior is learned. Not every time, but really, not everyone is dumb enough to keep working for no reward. I know how to do my job but I sure as heck wouldn't go into the office if I'm not getting a paycheck, no matter how much my boss praises me. But then I don't believe humans are or should be gods in the eyes of animals and worshipped just because.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

angelas said:


> I keep treating after the behavior is learned. Not every time, but really, not everyone is dumb enough to keep working for no reward. I know how to do my job but I sure as heck wouldn't go into the office if I'm not getting a paycheck, no matter how much my boss praises me. But then I don't believe humans are or should be gods in the eyes of animals and worshipped just because.


I must have had many years worth of dumb dogs then. 

They did what they did because of our bond and praise.

Dogs don't rationalize the way humans do. Otherwise periodically they would ask for a raise and better working conditions.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Kath & Clan said, dogs do live up to your expectations and they do want to please.

Unless there is a genetic defect I really believe that statement to be accurate.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Dogs don't rationalize the way humans do. Otherwise periodically they would ask for a raise and better working conditions.



:rofl:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Dogs don't rationalize the way humans do. Otherwise periodically they would ask for a raise and better working conditions.


Then why is mine out front with a picket sign?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Then why is mine out front with a picket sign?


He wants a steak.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

in the begining of training i treated and gave a lot of praise
and petting. as training continued i slowly cut back on the treats.
sometimes i would treat and sometimes it would be praise and 
petting only. i don't know what a high value treat is. my dog
will eat a biscuit treat with same vigor as a peice of steak or chicken.
do people really know what their dog considers a high value treat
or do people think this is steak so it's high value?


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Teddy, my rescue prefers potato chips. 

To him, that's a high value treat! 

Of course, he only gets them by following my 14 year old around and scarfing up the ones she drops on the floor....the couch...the sofa...her bed....


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I have a double standard. My home dogs get treats only when I feel like it. Mostly they get loves and praise. I treat only when teaching a new trick the first few times once they get it down they just get loves and attention. Now comes the double standard. When I go out to Safe Haven and work with socializing the dogs there. They always get treats. Many do not know yet what praise or love means and until they can learn that, treats it is.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> in the begining of training i treated and gave a lot of praise
> and petting. as training continued i slowly cut back on the treats.
> sometimes i would treat and sometimes it would be praise and
> petting only. i don't know what a high value treat is. my dog
> ...


Oh come we all know what the highest value treat is to a shepherd, we just never give it to them on purpose. Cat Poop is the best treat on the planet.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Oh come we all know what the highest value treat is to a shepherd, we just never give it to them on purpose. Cat Poop is the best treat on the planet.


Unless there is horse poop available. Digests easier too.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I think you should use what motivates the dog to learn. Toys, balls, and praise work for some and food/treats motivate others. I've owned dogs that would do backflips for a piece of chicken when training.

It's really about finding what sparks a dogs interest and keeps them engaged.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Unless there is horse poop available. Digests easier too.


:spittingcoffee:


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Way back in the old days when I was a boy, dogs were rarely given treats for behavior.
> An occasional biscuit or table scrap for no particular reason was about it.
> 
> Now I want to say that I'm all for treats to train behaviors but I believe people are getting carried away with it. The treats should be stopped sometime soon after the behavior is learned.
> ...


It depends IMO. If you're in serious competition and training on a regular basis you need some reward to keep the dog engaged. Praise, if overused will wear out its effectiveness. For me praise is a marker and treat/ball is the reward. Some dogs are so drivey that they are happy to work just because they love it. For the not so drivey dogs you need a reward to keep them engaged/interested. It could be a treat or a tug or a ball, whatever. Without it most non super drivey dogs will lose interest pretty quickly.

Tracking OTOH is a very reward driven sport, and praise will not cut it there. Praise can help motivate a dog but it will not make the dog a good tracker.

Dogs that like toys/tugs as rewards can tend to be on the energetic side, close to real drivey dogs but not the same. Most mellow-ish dogs respond well to treat rewards. This is a major generalization. But any good trainer will tell you to find out what motivates your dog and use that, be it treats, toys, whatever. It takes a lot of energy and a fair bit of skill to motivate a dog with a toy (in a way that builds drive, focus and attention). Treats are often the easier alternative but can easily be misused.

In the end what I'm probably trying to say is that praise should be built into whatever training style you use, including treats/toys. If done right it can be used with/without treats. However to keep your dog sharp, you need to keep up the primary motivation (treat/toy) as the reward during continual training.

There are plenty of healthy treats out there. When I was training my pup for tracking, a lot of food drops at the early stage, I was substituting the food drops for one of her meals.

You want the dog to push you to reward him, that's when you will get the best performance/learning out of your dog. A dog will push you for rewards, I have yet to see a dog that will push you for praise.



Jack's Dad said:


> I don't want my dog to just care about me because I'm a food/treat dispenser.


That's a matter of respect. If your dog respects you then I don't think that is a consideration.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

At my training class we use food rewards for good behaviour. After the first couple of weeks, we start to wean them off the treats and they get them intermittently, to keep them guessing.

So I agree with you, you really shouldn't be depending on the treats, but it's a good place to start.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Trainers at the school I went to suggested just that - treats to learn the behavior, enforce it with a random treat, and drop it when it is automatic. Their dogs are over 3 years old and they will still treat them every time a command is issued. I don't get that one, but I decided not to return to them when they suggested my treats weren't good enough one day.

It becomes a distraction at a certain point.


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## kbella999 (Jan 6, 2012)

When I got Rusti she was 83lbs (overweight) and I took her to our very first agility class. I wanted to use praise to treat her and she absolutely loved it when I clapped for her. You would have thought she won the lottery . Strangely enough my teacher just couldn't stand the idea of just praising and clapping for her. She honestly couldn't understand how Rusti would have fun without treats. We argued about it and I stood my ground. Funny that she actually had the nerve to also tell me to feed Rusti less since she needed to loose weight. Jerry Lee gets treats but his treat is me throwing the ball. That is what he prefers over anything else. I rarely use food and usually only when I'm training something new. I know several people that constantly use food and can't get their dog to pay attention without it. I think it has it place but I agree that some people really go overboard with the food treats.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

kbella999 said:


> When I got Rusti she was 83lbs (overweight) and I took her to our very first agility class. I wanted to use praise to treat her and she absolutely loved it when I clapped for her. You would have thought she won the lottery . Strangely enough my teacher just couldn't stand the idea of just praising and clapping for her. She honestly couldn't understand how Rusti would have fun without treats. We argued about it and I stood my ground. Funny that she actually had the nerve to also tell me to feed Rusti less since she needed to loose weight. Jerry Lee gets treats but his treat is me throwing the ball. That is what he prefers over anything else. I rarely use food and usually only when I'm training something new. I know several people that constantly use food and can't get their dog to pay attention without it. I think it has it place but I agree that some people really go overboard with the food treats.


Nice post. You made my point better than I did.

At agility I see people constantly treating there dogs to keep them still while there is down time. These are not puppies learning a new behavior, they should be way past sit and stay.

pfitzpa1, (how do you pronounce that). I agree with some of what you said about motivation and treat, toys, etc...

I don't agree though that if you are in serious competition the dog needs a reward to keep the dog engaged. Maybe in the beginning but if the competition doesn't become enjoyable in and of itself then it may not be the right venue for the dog.

In agility people end the run with throwing out a toy of some kind theoretically to reward the dog. The best dogs IMO are those that love the run and for those you could probably skip the treat/reward and just give them tons of praise because they already appear happy with themselves.

I've seen videos of my Zena's sire doing PSA. I believe that dog would do that all day long just for the fun of it.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> In agility people end the run with throwing out a toy of some kind theoretically to reward the dog. The best dogs IMO are those that love the run and for those you could probably skip the treat/reward and just give them tons of praise because they already appear happy with themselves.


 Do you do much agility?

Clearly people who use treats and toys to train have no bond with their dog and their dog at all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPazYnVEE0&list=UUC9e_MCAXl7VvDwsHnGd6hw&index=5&feature=plcp

Raika 2010 invitational - class six - Last class of the day! - YouTube


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I try to be stingy about treats. I even cut them in half (those little tid bit ones too!). I sort of have a different reasoning for it. I don't want my doggies to get fat or full off of them


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