# No VA placements, only ratings



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How do we feel about this? The upcoming Sieger show will place the dogs in catalog order without ranking/number placements.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

Stuck behind a train, so I'll bite. I think this is a positive move in terms of increasing diversity in the breed. It seems people want to breed to the "best" and they think that's the VA1 dog. (While of course that may not be the "best" match for their female.)

Now if only we could get people to recognize that it might be the V or SG dog that represents the standard best in terms of structure AND temperament.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Small step in right direction.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know....I guess I wonder why they won't just judge differently if they want to start a change? What does taking the ratings away really do? I am not condoning the previous placements or endorsing those dogs, but let's just assume for a minute that the dogs earning VA are true representatives of the breed. This is THE premier show. The breeders, owners, trainers, and handlers have spent years and small fortunes preparing the dogs and getting them to the point where a VA is within grasp. To me it seems silly to have what is supposed to be the premier event in the world withholding placements. I just competed in a national event with my dog and while we did not win, it was a NATIONAL event and I paid and traveled there to compete!

I really don't see that everyone is only breeding the VA1 dog....I thought that breeding was limited in Germany? I think VA12 dogs get insane amounts of breedings just like VA1 dogs! I agree that sometimes it's the mid-V or even SG dogs that I personally prefer, for many reasons. So why award a VA at all if we don't think the dog is VA-worthy? If we want to make some changes in what specimens are being put up as the best of our breed, how does awarding the same title to the same number of dogs help? Why not change how they are being judged?

Last fall I was talking to a judge at an SV type show and he was talking about how at one point everyone was obsessed with the croup and people were doing less than ideal breedings trying to get perfect croup/rear so the judges decided that for at least a year, they were not going to look at the croup and not mention it in their critique. According to this judge, after that the croups did improve as well as other aspects of health (because supposedly some folks were sacrificing things like health to get a perfect croup). Why not start initiatives like that?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Do you know that VA 1 and VA 12 dogs get comparable breedings, or do you think this is the case. If it is the case then it won't have an impact, if VA1 dogs do get significantly more breedings then it will have some impact.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Should all those V dogs be bred? Just because there is a show rating, doesn't mean the dog should reproduce....
Agree: 


> Now if only we could get people to recognize that it might be the V or SG dog that represents the standard best in terms of structure AND temperament.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Do you know that VA 1 and VA 12 dogs get comparable breedings, or do you think this is the case. If it is the case then it won't have an impact, if VA1 dogs do get significantly more breedings then it will have some impact.


Doesn't Germany limit how many they can register in a month? I know of dogs who have "maxed out" who were not VA1 dogs (some not even VA dogs) so that's what I mean....if many of them are getting max breedings and only one is the VA1 dog I don't think it's the VA1 award that is contributing to over breeding the same dogs/lines. 

I believe they do tend to limit how many VAs are awarded to dogs of the same or similar lines, so that is a good thing.

I wish they would go back to focusing on temperament like they said they were, that would really shake up the placements.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Germany determines how many breedings a dog can have in a year.....most dogs come no where near the amount....I'm just curious if the Va-1 dogs which I know reach max(60) or close, are basically the same as the VA -12 dogs.....because I think part of the problem is the top say 4/5 VA dogs get a disproportionate of amount of breedings from other VA dogs thus further narrowing the genetics. Now if that is the case and they eliminate 1 to 12, then people can't make status decisions on studs as much, or at least it would be spread among 12 dogs.....of course if they all get about the same breedings whether it is max or two then this rule won't have much effect.
Also, if I'm not mistaken this is geared only at VA dogs at Seiger show, so it doesn't affect say a Bomber that may have max breedings but doesn't have the genetic saturation that has occurred in VA dogs....maybe I'm missing something here.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Ok, so feel stupid asking this question. But I don't understand. So, dogs will be shown and rated, but no "winner"? So if 60 dogs show: 20 get SG, 10 get G , 15 get V, then 15 get VA. Then what? Normally they would be rated, which one is best of the VA, then second and third and so on. Like a AKC show, best if breed, best if opposite, yadda yadda. 

If they don't actually " rank " the dogs, who get Seiger or Siegeren? Isn't that the point? The be Seiger or Siegeren of the national show?

Help. I feel stupid? Seems like child team sports, no winner if the game. " everyone who played is a winner" mentality. No score kept. Everyone gets a chance at bat and a pat on the back for being " the best"


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It means 15 dogs are better than the rest in no particular order. So a breeder has to maybe do a little more homework to determine who to breed to instead of breeding to the Seiger and advertising that they got pups out of the Seiger regardless of whether the breeding is a good match or not.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gsdsar, yes I believe that is what they are doing, just giving them their ratings (VA, V, SG.....) and then exhibiting in catalog order.

I agree it seems dumb that at the premier national, nay world event there is no longer any competition or winner. Also sad that they have to resort to this to try to help/force? people to make better breeding decisions...


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I like it. When you compete against the standard you might get less extremes than when you compete against each other. But I have no personal stake in this competition so I might just be uninformed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The thing that bugs me more than VA ratings and placements is that when you get returning dogs, the judges feel obligated to give them VA ratings. Then you have shows like our US Sieger Show where there will be TEN or more VA dogs but probably less than 40 dogs actually in the ring....


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I personally think that dog breeds in general would be far better off if every "breed test" was pass/fail. Yep it's looks like a GSD or nope it doesn't. Same for IPO, same for AKC/CKC. I think it would keep a lot of the specailiztion down in every breed. JMO.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In a way, they are. You either get your 70-70-80 which is required to move on (or breed/breed survey) or you don't. Even the pass/fail stuff I've done is still scored (ATTS temperament tests, BH....). The BH is pass/fail but you still have to get 48(?) points to pass, and some clubs give out High BH awards. For me the issue is not the competition aspect but being able to separate that from what is really important when making *breeding* decisions. Why do we have to have a judge or someone else make a *breeding* decision for us? The way I evaluate my dog as far as competition and trialing is a lot different than how I evaluate him when an owner of a female inquires about breeding.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It has been done before. It will change nothing and eventually they will go back to the placings.


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