# Severe Itchiness that BAFFLES vet



## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

My GSD Panzer has been battling some form of allergies or skin disorder since a young pup. I've spent thousands of dollars on tests and medication and nothing seems to be working. 

His skin is almost always red and irritated, and often takes on a black scaly texture in certain areas. He rubs his face constantly on the furniture to the point where the poor thing bleeds! He's itched off his belly and underarm and neck hair.

This usually goes away for a little while with a string of prednisone and antibiotics but fairly shortly after he's taken off it he gets another flare up. 

I submitted his blood for allergy testing from Spectra Labs and they determined he's allergic to almost everything. Potatoes, Peas, Pork, fleas, house flies, nuts, certain trees, grass, and much more. His ears are constantly bothering him and get some sort of yeasty build up. I try to control it with the use of KetFlush which was provided by the vet.

To attempt to alleviate his symptoms he has been taking regular homeopathic allergen injection shots but they don't seem very effective, even now as he approaches the highest dosage concentration.

We also changed his dog food to one that doesn't contain any known allergens, and give him ONLY fresh spring water to drink. I'm at a complete loss here. He's been previously treated for allergy flare ups with prednisone and also the yeast with special shampoos and pills. 

They checked him for mites with a sample under a microscope, and was told they didn't find anything. They also examined him for fleas and said he was clear.

I just want him to be healthy and happy. He's almost 2 years old and I've had to stop his training due to his health issues and I also have to walk him on pavement and avoid dog parks for fear the allergens will cause a flare up.

Please help. I've run out of idea's to try, and I'm still no closer to understanding what's wrong with my dog. Any insights or ideas?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Does he smell odd -- like sweaty socks? I'm wondering if it's as a systemic yeast infection. Is that something the vet already tested and ruled out?

The reason I wonder is this: with several fosters, a vet told me itchy, black patches of skin and stinky smell was a yeast infection on the skin. On the vet's recommendation, a bottle of medicated shampoo like KetaChlor (chlorhexadene/ketoconazole) has worked wonders for several dogs (we often have to shampoo every few days for a while). It's a cheap solution too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sounds like malassezia , systemic yeast infection - treat inside and outside - must do both.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=mala...SEIbcyQGK34DIDA&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1097&bih=483

shampoo with a sulfur enhanced degreasing product - Mane N Tail PROTECT , Selsun Blue fortified -- 
treat skin with USNEA safe internally and externally - a strong anti fungal , immune support

add MSM - organic sulfur to diet

look to over all quality of diet --- Not so much about allergens than it is about grains , sugars (humectants) - poor quality protein , not enough overall quality to support a struggling immune system.

coconut oil massage on skin , coconut oil in diet -- the higher the lauric acid content the better. Not all coconut oil is equal.

have helped many dogs like this over the years . I wonder why your vet is baffled ?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

These people got it right. But it takes perseverance 

Nzymes Healthy-Skin Program for Yeast Overgrowth | Nzymes.com


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I also agree with everyone.
Here are 2 other things you can try.

*A 50/50 mix of Apple Cider Vinegar and Purified Water rinse after a bath. Pour on and work into coat/skin in small patches, eventually covering the whole dog. Do not rinse, let drip dry. (It will burn if used on broken skin)
**Listerine Recipe For Dry/Itchy Skin*
I know it sounds greasy, but it’s really not! Works well on dogs with skin issues, hot spots, dandruff, and dry skin. 
In a clean spray bottle add 1/3 cup of baby oil, 1/3 cup of original Listerine (the gold colored one) and 1/3 cup of water. Shake the bottle to mix, spray lightly on dog and work into coat. Repeat during the week when you see that it has absorbed. Always shake mixture before spraying pet.


I'm sure your vet told you that in Homeopathy, it gets worse before it gets better (most of the time) but also in a small percentage of dogs, it just doesn't work.


I'm curious if your vet has considered SLIT (Sublingual Immunotherapy) In some dogs, this will work better than the injections.

Heska - New ALLERCEPT® Allergy Therapy Drops for dogs, cats, and horses. 
http://www.heska.com/Documents/Allergy/White-Paper,-Sublingual-Immunotherapy-for-Dogs.pdf
A New Approach to Immunotherapy | Dermatology for Animals - Part 1
Sublingual Immunotherapy | Pet Allergy Treatment Advances



"Allergy drops work on the underlying cause of allergies, the immune system, to desensitize the patient."
The antigen's are combined on an individual basis, and administered buy a pump spray bottle, in the mouth, allowing the soft tissue to absorb it. Then the dosages are increased gradually until the patient develops a tolerance to the allergy causing substance.


Have you tried a raw diet?


I hope you find the answer. This sounds like it's been very trying for both of you!
Moms


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## PhoenixGuardian (Jul 10, 2013)

I am facing the exact same thing. Phoenix has HORRIBLE flea allergies, and the fleas are VEEEERRRRRY hard to control at my house, we have carpet and clutter... But I have waged war on the fleas. I am posting mostly to see what others have said, as I have no ideas other than getting to the bottom of whatever the issue is.
(By the wa, I am using KetaChlor, and it works very well. It has steroids in it to help the skin, and it works very well, but only as long as the bottle lasts...)


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Forgot to mention that you can use the ACV in your dogs food and drizzle over the kibble! If your dog doesn't like it, add a little non fat Chicken Broth to it, if he is not sensitive to chicken. Or you can add it to the water bowl.


35 lbs to 84 lbs - 1 tbs; 
85 lbs to 134 lbs - 1.5 tbsp;
135 lbs to 200 lbs – 2 tbsp.
Or, 1 Tablespoon per 16 ounces of water.

I know you did "allergy tests" but you may want to consider testing by Dr. Jean Dodds, called NutriScan. NutriScan Food Sensitivity and Intolerance Test for Cats and Dogs. 


This test measures antibodies to certain foods in dog saliva. High antibody levels indicate that the dog has a food sensitivity and intolerance to that food or foods. Food *intolerance or sensitivity* is actually quite common whereas *food allergy is rare*. In fact, food intolerance is the third most common sensitivity condition in dogs and often can be *e*asily remedied with a change in diet. Dr. Jean Dodds, NutriScan tests for the twenty most commonly ingested foods by dogs to provide you with specific results as to your dog's food intolerances or sensitivities. Since it is a salivary test, you have the convenience to complete the test at home or at your veterinarian’s office. Best of all, you can have the results in approximately two weeks to help you put your dog on the right diet.
NutriScan is novel and patented and *is not testing for food allergies*, but rather *tests for food sensitivities and intolerance*. These are different body immune responses. Food allergy is a more immediate reaction mediated by production of IgE and IgG antibodies. *Food sensitivity and intolerance, by contrast, measures a more delayed body response to offending foods by measuring production of IgA and IgM antibodies primarily in mucosal secretions from the bowel.”*

I'd get both panels done if you decide to do this.

Moms


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

another option for treatment is collodial silver....silver shield gel or silver in liquid form. Silver Shield Gel l Natural Antibiotic | Natures Sunshine Products
you can google for more information, I am just posting the top link on a google search.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Levi had allergies when he was younger and we switched him to a raw diet which helped immensely (he had environmental allergies as well). The allergy shots weren't 
working for him, which is why I switched (and then we were able to take him off the shots).


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

When my shepherd itches to the point where hair falls off and skin turns black due to either some environmental allergy or insect bites (she likes to run into bushes on hikes with my blessing) I've applied the ACV and rubbed coconut oil as mentioned by other posters. It has worked great to decrease the itch and they all heal nicely. I learned to do that from this forum.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I use coconut oil as well. Topical and internally. I agree with trying to do a raw diet with very limited ingredients to start. Three months is about the time frame for seeing any change.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Is your dog on any topical (spot-on) HW/flea prevention?

DO NOT vaccinate at this time. the yeast issue is likely due to a hormonal imbalance, an immune system go awry.

Kelp
Ashwagandha (herb - works on the adrenal glands and thyroid)
Zinc
Good B-complex (B3 is natural antibacterial), B-family helps with metabolizing fats and proteins (B12 should be in Methyl form, not Cyano)...I like New Roots Ultra B50

RAW!!! Cannot emphasize enough - grass fed if you can afford. Absolutely NO sugars - this means no peas, potatos, rice, yogurt, wheat, corn, carrots, barely, honey, molasses - ANYTHING that is starch/carbohydrate(incl. fruit or vegetable) that converts to sugar

And I second the:
Coconut oil
ACV
MSM


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I had a 2 year experience with this sort of symptom. They didn't find mange in the skin scraping; allergy test showed sensitivity to a gazzillion things. Allergy shots did nothing for them. Finally treated for mange and that took care of it. After my experience (the dogs were close to dying from it), I'd treat for mange to see if that took care of the problem. Only after that would I look at allergies. (BTW Prednizone is contraindicated with mange.)


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Panzer is on KetaChlor for a shampoo, and still receiving his shots. His skin is still pretty bad. I only do the shampoo once a week.....should I do more? And apply coconut oil after? I just want him to feel better.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Oh and what is that stuff you guys are talking about to add to the food? ACV? And how do I find my threads Ive opened without searching for my user name in the search bar?


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Sorry guys for all the questions, but I also would like to know how to switch to a homemade raw dog food diet? What does it need it in? Any recipes? Is raw the way to go or should I cook it? Oh and I just applied coconut oil over his entire body (parts where hair is missing and is clearly itchy)

Thanks again guys for all your help


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> Oh and what is that stuff you guys are talking about to add to the food? ACV? And how do I find my threads Ive opened without searching for my user name in the search bar?





gibby913 said:


> Sorry guys for all the questions, but I also would like to know how to switch to a homemade raw dog food diet? What does it need it in? Any recipes? Is raw the way to go or should I cook it? Oh and I just applied coconut oil over his entire body (parts where hair is missing and is clearly itchy)
> 
> Thanks again guys for all your help


 
Apple cider Vinegar (ACV), get Bragg's - Raw organic - from health food store. Add tblsp. to water. Make a 50/50 solution with water and use that on itchy hairless areas allow to dry and then put coconut oil on.

You can also use veterecyn - but ACV is a lot cheaper, however, ACV may sting a bit, but then it is soothing. will kill bacteria and heal the sores.

To find your threads go to search (next to new posts), click there and click find my threads.

RAW...all you need is muscle meat, bone and organ meat. Search RAW dog ranch on here - Laurie, a moderators site for ratios for your dogs weight. Rule of thumb is 2-3% of target body weight...to keep simple, say dog is 100lbs, then feed 2-3lbs of food based on activity level, age.

I feed ground turkey and chicken frames and beef or chicken offal (organ) meat.

You may want to go really lean to start as fat can be hard to digest and you don't want to be discouraged with diarrhea as a set back and abandon RAW.

Have you started a thread under RAW forums? Get lots of good advice, make sure you mention yeasty issues as people will tell you to add yogurt or cottage cheese - DON'T do that - no sugars!
Cheers


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks! Just made a post under RAW threads......


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

How often should I bathe him with KetaChlor and should I apply the ACV after the bathe and THEN apply coconut oil? And should I put some in his food as well? I'v dished out thousands of dollars at this point and I just want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Apple cider Vinegar (ACV), get Bragg's - Raw organic - from health food store. *Add tblsp. to water*. *Make a 50/50 solution with water and use that on itchy hairless areas allow to dry and then put coconut oil on.
> *
> You can also use veterecyn - but ACV is a lot cheaper, however, ACV may sting a bit, but then it is soothing. will kill bacteria and heal the sores.





gibby913 said:


> How often should I bathe him with KetaChlor and *should I apply the ACV after the bathe and THEN apply coconut oil? And should I put some in his food as well*? I'v dished out thousands of dollars at this point and I just want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly.


 I would dump the KetaChlor and search NEEM OIL shampoo for dogs (sorry, don't know of a brand off hand)

ACV - add to drinking water, sorry wasn't clear. 
Put the ACV/water solution in a spray bottle on mist and use that way or in a bowl and soak clean white cotton clothes with and make compresses. Let dry and rub in the Coconut oil...not sure if mentioned below, but ACV and CO should be organic...like Nutiva or if have Costco membership Carringtons (1/2 the price)

Add 1 tsp/10 lbs. of body weight of CO to diet too...but work up slow, start at 1 tsp/day and work up to 3 tblsps. over 3-4 weeks.

Yeast die-off produces some 39 (if I have the # correct) toxins and can mimic or seemingly make worse the symptoms...this is a healing process referred to as "herxing"

Don't give up hope...lots of success stories on here once people have turned away from conventional/toxic treatments...i.e. abx., kibble, harsh chemicals (ketachlor)


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

So you say you feed your dogs chicken frames. What is that exactly? (All new terminology for me) and what do I have to do to prepare/prep it for him?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

those are the remains of the carcass after the breast meat is removed , wings and legs - used to make soups -- excellent for dogs


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Okay guys so I should bathe him, then apply ACV and coconut oil after the ACV dries......How ofter should I do this? Should ACV and CO only be applied after baths? Or more often?

What specifically should I get for probiotics??? I plan on starting him on both the RAW diet and on the "detox" ASAP. I just need a clear plan of attack......

What to give him, how often, and when......etc etc....Thanks all.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> How often should I bathe him with KetaChlor


Ketachlor is a RX product -- please ask your vet about recommended useage based on your dog's prescription (I also recommend thinking carefully about advice to dump products prescribed by your vet without talking it through with your vet--your vet needs to be part of this conversation!)

For *my* foster dog whose situation may be different than *your* dog, the vet advised to wash with this RX shampoo at least 1x week, but up to 2x a week if needed -- and follow bottle directions exactly (leaving it on the recommended time).


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

I am using KetaChlor, and intend on continuing using it. I just need to know what else I need to do and the frequencies in doing them. How often do I apply ACV and CO?

What probiotics should I give him and how much and frequently? Is there anything else I should be giving him? How frequently and how much of those? 

Thanks again all


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

all those answers can be found on your other , related, link - the yeast - itchy diet .


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> I am using KetaChlor, and intend on continuing using it. I just need to know what else I need to do and the frequencies in doing them. How often do I apply ACV and CO?
> 
> What probiotics should I give him and how much and frequently? Is there anything else I should be giving him? How frequently and how much of those?
> 
> Thanks again all


 Use the ACV spritz 2-3x per day. CO at least 2x per day...Don't see any sense in using after bath w/KetaChlor as there is some ingredient in it that seals the skin, I guess to hold the "medicinal" part of the shampoo in to kill yeast (which in my opinion, you are holding the toxic elements of the shampoo in, as well as the toxins trying to leave the body, which they will need to do, via the skin, hence NEEM shampoo).

I am not sure if Momto2GSD's is on this thread or other...she has lots of suggestions on probiotics.

Carmen who is easy to find a post or two back also has a probiotic/digestive enzyme product. Click on her link in her signature.

Depending on the probiotic, label directions.

Start there (recap):
RAW
Probiotic/enzyme
AVC (external spritz - internal - tblsp. in drinking water)
CO (external/internal)
Shampoo - NEEM (or use the rx. stuff)

Will get into supplementation/liver detox once you get this in motion

Please take before pictures as WHEN this works, you will want to share to help others.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks a bunch! I'll take some pictures tomorrow. Quick question, is there any prep other than thawing chicken backs? I can just give then everything bone and all right? Or do I need to separate it?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> Thanks a bunch! I'll take some pictures tomorrow. Quick question, is there any prep other than thawing chicken backs? I can just give then everything bone and all right? Or do I need to separate it?


 Not sure I understand the question Is it just the back or attached to leg quarter? I would pull fat off just to get started, as I mentioned, you don't want a set back with diarrhea. You can graduate it in as dogs need fat. 

Good for you for taking the plunge!


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

*Try... no beef and no wheat for awhile ...*

Make sure no beef or wheat is in the diet for awhile just to eliminate them as suspects. 
Several dog foods contain neither beef or wheat, Taste of the Wild (not the buffalo) and Innova are two we have used.
Kazar went to a veterinary dermatologist and he told us to remove wheat and beef from the diet first thing (before the vet performed any costly allergy tests). 
He was right, it cured him.
Miss Molly showed early signs of the same problem and we removed beef and wheat from her diet and it worked for her too.

Poor Panzar, he must be miserable.
Good luck.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Sorry for not being clear. Me and my wife are nervous about giving Panzer chicken bones in general. Or any bones for that matter. We've only given him beef marrow bones in the past which he can only gnaw on and not actually eat it in pieces. 

Is there anything special I need to do to give him the bones? I just bought some chicken quarters to start with. Do I give it to him whole? Bones and all? 

Can the bones hurt him? I mean can it cut him internally and cause internal bleeding? Thanks all


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

We all, prior kibble feeders who made the switch, had the same concerns. A dog can choke on a piece of kibble like we can on a potato chip. So that answers that question.

Will it cut him up inside. Not sure really, I know my dog when his GI tract was out of whack, may not have digested the bones fully...however, the stomach acids soften the bone make it more rubbery (for lack of better description).

Chicken bones are the easiest to chew up and digest.

Trust in nature. Your dog will love you for it

For first time feeding, if you have a cleaver or chicken shears, break the thigh away from the drum, or twist and pull apart and cut it.

You can buy pre-made RAW with bone ground in, but that defeats the purpose of raw on teeth, muscles, and the act of chewing/grinding stimulates digestion. But to start, I mean the focus is on getting your dog well...so in the interim until you research more and build some confidence you can go that route...throw in a couple wings here and there.

Did you look at the pics on your other thread?


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

I didn't see any pictures on my other thread....let me check. And thanks for your help and advice.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

You have to click on the links that are underlined - they are threads on this forum...there was 4 links, 2 were about food and the other 2 were Nyx threads for you to read...

You are welcome


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Here is another story you should read, because your dog is only 2 and has 40% hair loss, it made me think of this...

This is a sad story about a dog named Thunder (from Dogs Naturally Magazine).

A Case Study In the Over Servicing Of Dogs By Veterinarians | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

That's the most terrible and messed up thing I've every read. Now I'm afraid to bring him to the Vet lol


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Alright guys I took the plunge today with Panzer! We're using animal essentials for the probiotic, I've been adding 2 tsp of CO to his meal (feeding him 2-3 pds once a day), And spritzing with ACV and rubbing on CO to his skin. 

I'm feeding him Chicken Quarters and Chicken Livers to start.....I can't seem to buy anything else unless its in bulk (40pd minimum). What else should I include?


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

On another note I've noticed for the last few days panzer has been acting very tired and looks ill. He doesn't move much from his bed.

Should I be concerned or is this part of the detox phase?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Hi, was hoping someone would chime in...I tried, but having problems with my computer and my reply crapped out!

How is your dog doing today. It's hard to say if going into a detox mode at this early of a stage with just the addition of CO, especially at such a conservative dose and without knowing when you started. Your thread was started before x-mas, but when you started CO and ACV, is not known. 

Is he on any other meds (vet scripted?). Had he been bathed again recently with the ketachlor?

Just wanted to touch base with you. I would hate to be entering an unknown realm only to feel abandoned when you need advice the most. 

One thing I would suggest is to split the food into two meals if you can. May be a heavy load for one meal a day feed at this time and with the RAW switch and existing health problems.

Good for you though for taking the next step! Hang in. He will get better.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Sorry all for the delay in the update. He's doing a bit better but seems still kinda bed bound, and not completely himself yet but better than he was doing. I think he's tired of being spritzed with ACV and getting CO rubber over him but he's still letting me do it (however he does try and hide everytime he sees the spray bottle). His skin is starting to appear a little better and more pink. He is NOT on any prescription medications other than his monthly allergy injections. Since he has been feeling poorly I have NOT bathed him in Ketachlor again. We started spraying him with the ACV and rubbing CO on him around 1/8/14 I believe. We took the plunge on the food and started giving probiotics and CO in food as of 1/13/14, However, we switched him from his food on 1/10/14. (We gave him Chicken Breasts for a few days before we gave him raw bones)

My biggest concern is that I'm feeding him the correct foods. I'm giving him Chicken Quarters and Chicken Livers as well as some Chicken Gizzards.

Are Chicken Quarters considered both RMB and MM?

Are Gizzzards just OM? (One of my dogs dislikes Liver but will eat Gizzards)

Panzer, the dog with the skin issue I expect should be at around 100 pounds when healthy. I'm feeding him 2 pounds per day. Tonight his meal was as follows:

1 lb 15 oz Chicken Quarters

1.8 oz Chicken Liver & Chicken Gizzards

(2) 1/4 tspn of probiotics

(2) tspns CO


Is this enough food for him? And did I cover all the meat types correctly?
(RMB, MM, OM)?

Thanks all


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

You need to get the dog checked by a vet derm. There are so many regular vets that will try multiple paths, with no resolution.

We saw this with a local dog. Dog was on multiple meds, etc. plus issues with never a solid poop. Dog came to husband for training. Before started training, he recommended that owner take dog to a certified Vet Derm, put dog on single source protein, no wheat, corn, etc..

Lo and behold, Derm vet was able to identify what was wrong, dog got the correct meds, issue cleared up. With the food allergies, the food change also made a huge difference.

Once dog was stable and not miserable due to the skin and food issues, husband did the training.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions. Does anyone have an answer to my diet question though? Am I feeding him correctly? Gator? Carmen? Any input?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sorry. I hadn't seen your post, I have a (or a couple) redirect virus on my computer, logging on has been difficult, and even if I can, I post or click on link or new page of forum just cycles until I give up or get oops page (cannot find link).

To answer your question. Amounts seem fine for now. Although not sure if gizzards are an OM. Gizzards are part of the stomach, and with beef tripe is considered a MM. 

I'd like to suggest you get some calves (specifically, not cow) liver. Calves liver is highest in zinc of all the livers (cow, chicken, turkey, pork). Zinc is important for skin repair and immune function.

Also during this time of healing, it is best to feed smaller portions more times per day - if you can split the food to a.m/p.m. meals and split the CO ratio along with it. 

You said he's doing a bit better, but still a bit bed bound...If you feel your dog isn't bouncing back after splitting daily ration, then lay off the CO for couple days and add in again for 4-5 days, day of rest, on again for few days and so forth. Gauge it by how he's doing. 

Great news that his skin is already showing improvement though, isn't it?!!!

On side note: you may consider adding a touch of fresh crushed garlic (small clove) every few days to start. Garlic is excellent for treating yeast. Can be used in carrier oil to treat ear infections.

You can also use the CO to swab/clean the ears. Only thing that killed yeast problem in my guys ears.

Keep up the good work. Keep asking we're here for you and post some pics!


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hey guys,

So as an update Panzer seems to have taken a turn for the worst again. We've continued his raw Diet, and I've noticed he started losing a little weight so I upped his feeding to 3% of his goal weight. 

As of the last few days he's gotten VERY VERY itchy once more and began chewing more areas of his furr! I cant get into a holistic vet for at least 6 months and Im begin to worry for his health (more so than I have been).

On a side note, does CO need to be unrefined to work as I want it too? I ran out of unrefined and they were out of stock at the supermarket so I purchased refined to supplement until they restock. Is this okay?

Is this new flare up a good sign or bad? I've been told when he gets close to getting over it he may get much itchier before it goes completely away. Is this true?

Any insight would be helpful!


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Anyone? Help? He looks so **** miserable I cant hardly stand it!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So as an update Panzer seems to have taken a turn for the worst again. We've continued his raw Diet, and I've noticed he started losing a little weight so I upped his feeding to 3% of his goal weight.
> 
> ...


 Hi gibby! you're not alone. don't panic.

When you say "turn for the worst" do you mean just the itching? b/c that comment sounded scary.

Did this start with change to "refined CO". I ask b/c refined usually means chemically treated, and/or heat treated, which hydrogenates the oil. Think hydrogenated margarine. Hexane is a chemical used to refine oils and could be a culprit. 

Do you have a Costco membership? You can get Carrington's (brand), big one for around $17 US there. It is unrefined, hexane free.

Did you switch to calves liver for zinc? 
Maybe backtrack to any changes that may have made just prior. If you feel he is detoxing too fast, cut out the CO for few days. Did you increase it btw? Should be able to get up to 2-3 tblsps. Asking b/c 2 tsps. isn't a lot.

What about bathing. Have you used the ketachlor again? Have you sourced a neem oil shampoo? 

What is the weather been where you are? My dog was scratching so bad, the temps came up a bit and he more at ease?

I know you added a probiotic - what about digestive enzyme?

Still here for you.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

4 things you may want to consider:
*
The Honest Kitchen Dehydrated Grain Free Embark:*Embark - Grain Free, High Protein Dog Food | The Honest Kitchen 

*Krill Oil *- some people find krill more helpful than salmon oil for a particular dog:_“Krill oil has a unique biomolecular profile that distinguishes it from other fish oils. While EPA and DHA in fish oils comes in the form of triglycerides, the EPA and DHA is already incorporated into phospholipids, which facilitates the passage of the fatty acids through the intestinal wall. This increases the bioavailability of the EPA and DHA and improves absorption and assimilation.”_ "Krill Oil contains Astaxanthin which is a powerful antioxidant and is also an anti-inflammatory. _“Astaxanthin is a carotenoid-type of antioxidant that is even more powerfu than beta-carotene, alpha-tocopherol, lycopene and lutien.”_ Krill Oil capsules (180 per bottle): 1 bottle - Mercola.com 

*Digestive Enzymes/ProBiotics *combination (to support and heal the gut): The Wholistic Pet 

*SeaVive: *Myself and a few friends have seen amazing results using this product for fungus and allergies for our dogs! My husband and I also take it everyday to keep our immune system up during the winter months!







*SeaVive Information: *
*IMMUNE SYSTEM MISSION: Prevent disease and infection*
Mucous membranes that line body cavities open to the environment, such as those found in the nose and gut, house antibodies called immunoglobulins that ensnare pathogens and potential antigens encountered in daily life. Thus, mucous membranes function as the first step in the mission of the immune system to prevent disease and infection.
Toxic invaders that sneak by the mucosal barrier are met by white blood cells called macrophages, which by a process called phagocytosis literally digest and destroy invaders in the blood. Thus, macrophages become the body's inside line of defense responsible for seeking and indiscriminately destroying viruses, parasites, fungi, and bacteria.
Two new supplements aid and assist these defenses against disease and infection. They are Colostrum, which supplies critical immunoglobulins to block invaders at the level of the mucosal barrier, and Beta glucan, which stimulates the action of the macrophages to phagocytize invaders in the blood stream. A third supplement *Seacure*® aids the immune system indirectly by correcting pathogenic bowel permeability to prevent hazards from passing through the gut membrane to infect internal organs. Finally, Vitamin C is well recognized for its immune-supportive properties. All four of these components are combined to produce the one-of-a-kind immune-booster ... *SeaVive*®. About SeaVive

Quote: SeaVire® is a 100% natural, pre-digested fish protein concentrate combined with Colostrum 80/40 which is critical for good immune function. This combination is the only product on the market like it in the world. It is now available in the nutraceutical industry today. SeaVive® naturally contains a total of 18 amino acids including the 11 essential amino acids. Essential amino acids are amino acids that cannot be synthesized by the dog/cat's body and must be supplied to the body in their daily diet. But when a system is compromised due to disease or a debilitating condition SeaVive is the ideal supplement because of the benefits of a quickly absorbed and fully assimilated protein source- one of which is fast repair and recovery from illness, surgery, and wound healing.

Because SeaVive® is already pre-digested it is 100% usable by the body, and it does not require effort on the part of the dog's digestive system to process the protein. This makes it readily available for nourishment, boosting immune function and accelerated healing. This product is perfect for fading puppy syndrome, the systemic yeast removal detoxification process, dog's whose systems are depleted from IBD, IBS, Coccidia and Giardia. It is a terrific supplement *for dog's with allergies* due to its immune boosting properties and an answer to nourishment for the stages of early renal failure because it's a protein the body does not have to process, so it is usable and not hard on the compromised kidneys.

During the manufacturing process of SeaVive they employ a proprietary technology that permits them to, naturally, breakdown the fresh raw material, Pacific Whiting (a member of the Cod family) making SeaVive
almost 100% absorbable and assimilated by the body. 

Due to this technological process, the body does not have to further digest SeaVive® which makes it very easy on the body, permitting the naturally occurring minerals, nutrients, amino acids and peptides of the fish to be utilized immediately assisting the body with the natural healing process. 
*Some Examples of Use: *
*Detoxification During Yeast Removal*
*Boosting Immune Function*
*Allergies*
*IBD and IBS*
*Digestive Issues*
*Malabsorption Issues*
*Giardia*
*Coccidia*
*Parasites*
*Malnutrition*
*Rescue & Repair*
*Lactating Bitches*
*Fading Puppy Syndrome*
*Wound Healing - Topically*
*Repair After Surgery*
*Wound Healing - Internally*
*HOD (when off feed)*
*Nourishment Post Surgery*
*Renal Failure*

About SeaVive
Or here: SeaVive 90 Capsules by Proper Nutrition

Always add new foods or supplements slowly.

Hope your baby finds some relief soon!

Moms


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Sorry, I didn't mean to list the Embark on there! forgot to delete it in time and couldn't go back and correct it.
*
The raw diet is the best!*

Sorry, Moms


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

This may seem counter-intuitive, but I might consider not worrying TOO much about getting all the nutrition at this point, and just worry about getting him eating and comfortable with ONE source of protein (as in chicken if he isn't reacting with that), including chicken livers. Yes, you will definitely need to balance his diet and add organ meat and so on, but at this point, a few weeks with just raw meat (bone-in) isn't likely to hurt him in the long run. After a month if you are seeing improvement in his skin, then add another protein source. Then, another month and you can add a supplement, and so on, always one at a time a few weeks apart so you can determine if anything is affecting him. Keeping a careful food log as well as any other details of things that change in his environment can help too, though it takes a lot of time. 

I'm NOT a pro, just somebody who went through a lot of allergy issues with one of my dogs, and finally did it this way, and got it under control for the most part. I didn't have any forums like this, or a holistic vet, and both are great resources for you. Most of the folks here who have offered you advice would probably also be open to PMs if you're feeling like you really need a answer, I know I might miss a post, but I will usually see the PM right away.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Seek Alternatives for Dogs With Tough Skin Problems


----------



## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

GatorBytes said:


> Hi gibby! you're not alone. don't panic.
> 
> When you say "turn for the worst" do you mean just the itching? b/c that comment sounded scary.
> 
> ...


Okay to answer some questions, as far as his "turn for the worst", Panzer chewed several spots overnight in his skin to the point of bleeding, and rubbed his face on the furniture to the point he bled as well. We were following the same treatment methods.

I spritz him with ACV twice a day, let it dry on him, and then rub coconut oil over his body to help alleviate the itch. I feed him roughly 3 pounds of chicken quarters, gizzards, and liver. 

I'm giving him now about 2 tbspoons of CO in his food and (2) 1/4 tspoons of his Animal Essentials: Plant Enzymes & Pobiotics.

The weather has been rather cold (low thirties to the low teens)

I've steered away from using any chemicals due to the open sores from his chewing. I've just been doing an ACV rinse.

He was already very itchy before I switched to the refined CO. The unrefined is costing me 8 $ for a small jar (14 oz). The brand is Spectrum Virgin Coconut Oil. I bought the refined for 5.99$ and it comes with 30 fl oz. The brand for the refined CO is LouAna Coconut Oil.

Today he's doing a bit better. I've increased the amount I rub on his skin (I'm really globbing it on now and rubbing it in really well). I also have him wearing a long sleeve shirt to help the open wounds heal without his bothering them too much. 

I was going through a 14 oz jar twice a week. As long as his skin doesn't react poorly to the refined CO, will it do the same job as the unrefined will? The refined CO is non-hydrogenated. Is this okay? And on anpther note should I be giving him anything else to aid in his recovery? Maybe a multi-vitamin or something of the sorts?

Thanks again!


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Oh and I can't locate any calves liver. I only have three grocery stores and Walmart in my area. We have a markey basket which have chicken backs, Shaws occasionally has chicken livers, and Hannaford doesn't carry anything but Chicken Quarters. I typically purchase my Chicken Quarters, Gizzards, and Liver from Walmart.

I did purchase Beef Liver however (figured it was close to Calve liver) and I did mix that in on several meals rather than chicken Liver. Is that okay? Or do you know of a place to get actual Calve Liver?

Thanks!


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

I located some boxed frozen Calves liver! I'll start introducing it into his diet tomorrow! Hopefully this will turn things around for him.....


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

gibby913 said:


> Oh and I can't locate any calves liver. I only have three grocery stores and Walmart in my area. We have a markey basket which have chicken backs, Shaws occasionally has chicken livers, and Hannaford doesn't carry anything but Chicken Quarters. I typically purchase my Chicken Quarters, Gizzards, and Liver from Walmart.
> 
> I did purchase Beef Liver however (figured it was close to Calve liver) and I did mix that in on several meals rather than chicken Liver. Is that okay? Or do you know of a place to get actual Calve Liver?
> 
> Thanks!


Does anyone have any suggestions regarding my above questions? 

Oh and I finally got around to submitting the photos of Panzer's condition. I don't know how to link to it but its in my profiles albums......


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe look into this????

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...lly-itchy-pets-immunoglobulin-deficiency.html


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Don't take this the wrong way but it's time for your dog to see a specialist. Do you have any dermatologists or teaching hospitals where you live?

He looks like he's suffering, I can't even imagine  You have gotten a lot of bad advise so far IMHO and I will leave it at that.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

You can get
Ground Beef Organs
Ground Turkey Organs
and
Ground Chicken Hearts and Gizzards
From an Omas Pride Dealer: Distributors 

Moms


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Gibby, it's only been 3 weeks since you started RAW. I believe Nyx mentioned in his threads 3 months from time he sought advice here to his Vet supporting his decisions once the skin ailment was reversed - Something even she doubted could be done.

He didn't have pics., but yours is what I imagine his dog looked like to by the description 

Yes the pics. look very discouraging and heartbreaking. But it was conventional medicine that drove illness that deep into the body that this happened. It takes time to heal. Healing has to happen from the inside, cells need to die off and replaced by new.

You've done the allergy tests, know the allergic triggers, some you can avoid. I don't know of any specialist that can cure your dog - maybe manage - with of course the use of steroids, abx. and maybe the big guns - ATOPICA (cyclosporine), a chemo type drug that is used as last resort in place of or along side pred, just like that dog Thunder in the dogs naturally link).

Even if you cannot get an appointment with a local holistic vet, maybe travel outside area an hr. or two.

Don't get discouraged.


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Gibby I PM-ed you.

I will re check your thread for the images, but, on my once over I missed them. I am so sorry I did not want to take images of my Dante. I desperately wished I did for every puppy and their owners suffering from this condition.

I linked you in the Pm to my Original help thread but I will add it here as well http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/191277-help-us-please-skin-yeast.html

And our Testimonial thread 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/221754-raw-barf-update-testimonial.html


Let me re-hash my original posts for you so you can get the gist of the situation and see how it compare with yours now.

Dante, PB GSD intact male would get "hot spots" at three months. Red spots like the size of a quarter on his tummy and between his legs. Then they would turn black ( like elephant skin). He would lick between his toes and pads of his feet, making them red and raw, until they bled.

We went to the vet and were told it was just "hormones" as he was maturing and I needed to get him cut to alleviate the issues.

Then He started the ear infections. And I mean TERRIBLE yeasty gross and stinky ear infections. Which returned us to the vet for antibiotics and ear washes. 

Meanwhile his "hormonal hot-spots" turned into red, raw, flakey skin growing from his testies to his front arm-pits. In which a return to the vet told us he had "environmental allergies" and gave us more anti-biotic, cortizone creams and special bath soaps.

These 'treatments' usually last three weeks and he would get 'cured' and revert back to his symptoms within four weeks. WORSE.

We changed foods, we got steroid shots, we used EVERY anti-biotic given to us, we were on 3 pills of benedryl every 4 hours they scratch tested his black, red and flaky skin and found NOTHING. We had blood tests and NOTHING WORKED. NOTHING.

I spent easily 3 thousand dollars on the prescriptions and vet visits.
I tried home-remedies, like blue violet, Apple vinegar cider, Boric acid and tea tree oils.

We went to a secondary vet because I just could not believe that the first one could not "pin down" an issue.

Dante ended up losing ALL of his fur on his stomach; from testies to pits, and up around his 'mane' on his shoulders. His skin was black like elephant skin and seeping yellow sap like liquid that turned to crust. I put cotton shirts on him to keep him from ithcing and to try to keep his skin dry. 

I had enough with the vet's and looked on-line for help.

I ended up here. I asked for help. And I got it.

We started the RAW/ B.A.R.F diet with JUST CHICKEN in late December 2012 after I researched and asked tons of questions on-line here to get the gist and to stock up on the supplies that were needed.

By the end of January Dante was healing. His skin was not inflamed any longer and the redness was going away( the red was hot to the touch as well) and the heat was gone!
It took a bit longer for the thick elephant skin to turn pink again (which the Vet's told me would NEVER go away ) and of course his hair to re-grow. 

But Dante is in utter remission, has NO Skin trouble or ear infections at all now. NONE. My vet is in utter astonishment and so happy Dante is feeling better. 

At first they advised me to be very careful about feeding raw. They sorta scared me. But once she saw Dante's turn around she is absolutely positive about everything. She says she would not have believed me if she had not seen it from day one and now to full remission.

We only feed Kibble when some one else is taking care of them, or we have run out of stock. And I feed EVO. Other wise they get absolutely NO kibble. No biscuit treats. No raw hides. ( and if he is one the EVO too long, he gets hot-spots)

I buy elk horns for chewies and make gelatine treats from coconut milk or chicken broth for training and just because.

I really do kick myself in the butt every day that I did not take images of him, but he was so dejected and miserable and looked so bad that I just could not do it to him.

If there is any thing else I can do to help you and your baby. ANYTHING please don't hesitate to ask.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I've heard allergies can take up to 3 months to disappear after exposure has stopped.

I would stick with a raw diet for the 3 months.

Re: coconut oil, don't feed the refined stuff, feed cold pressed, organic. The refined has lost much of its benefits.

For environmental allergies, for pollenating plants, you can feed LOCAL bee pollen with food as a natural form of exposure therapy. It can take a long, long time to work though.

Also, check your floor cleaners etc. I got a steam mop for cleaning. Sanitizes with steam, not chemicals. Could you have a mold/mildew problem?

Good luck, this sounds awful for you both!


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

*I may have the answer your looking for based on experince*

I feel for the dog and the OP here and I hope you look at the fact this is my first post in a contribution manner..? I dealt with my wife's dog having open sore's when we first met in 1992 and found the cause pretty quickly when "Spankie" would have puss, bleed, lick and itch all day and night. I am reluctant to post a vet's name here as I do not know the rules regarding this. But he is an allergy specialist and he has/had a list of celebrity clientele everybody know's as; "Captain Kirk." Inside of 5 weeks "Spankie" started growing eyelashes and the sores healed over. It may have to do with a hormone called Cortisol levels..? I am not the doctor. I am simply saying if you wish to PM me.. I will direct you to the Vet of my choice in this dilemma.. Although, I read your on the East Coast and he is on the West Coast. He can be contacted on his website or at the Clinic. He's the best that ever walked and talked on allergy..

Interested in knowing the changes good and bad that have taken place with the GSDs since the late 1980s.


Hope this works out so the fun can continue...


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Panzer looks exactly like my Dante.

But Dante lost all of his 'mane' around his shoulders as well and ALL of his skin from his testies to his pits had turned black, thick and rough. 

Stop the allergy shots. Do not use any more "medicine" on him. Stop the baths. Let his skin heal.

Do not even give him his yearly shots right now.

Get a pet balm, like Bag Balm, or pet vet balm. It is thick, will give his skin a barrier between everything and will stay on through the licking. It wont hurt them either if they digest it. 

Yes I went through a TON of Bag Balm. I put it on so thick it looked like he was ready for cooking. On his feet I globed it on, covered it with children's socks and then topped it off with Vet Wrap.

For his ears, get an ear rinse that promotes drying out the ear. Use it as recommended and ABSOLUTELY ANY TIME he is outside in wet conditions(rain, snow, sprinklers), after bathing, or water sports. Not an antibiotic rinse. Just a normal Over the counter rinse.

You want to get all foreign invaders OUT of his body and let it 're-boot' it's healing. 

Now the ugly part. The diet. I do not like touching most of the meat they have to eat, but, they sure do love eating it.

It is gross, both inside and out. Panzer will likely have disgusting bowel movements and they will scare the bee geesus out of you. Right now IMO only worry if you see blood, because everything coming out needs to come out. It is all the bad stuff his body has been dealing with.

Now you know your dog best, and if he seems to be getting worse of course you should consult a vet. But for starting this new diet, give it time and have some faith. 

Dante was 60 lbs at the worst of his symptoms. He had lost 15 lbs and he was supposed to be gaining at the time. And he was so absolutely not feeling well that he seemed like a beaten dog. Just wanted no one to touch him and no attention because he looked as well as felt terrible. 
Dante still watches me if I have cloths and spray bottles.

It took us three months to see MASS improvements. 
Things slowly got better at the start. 
First the heat and red skin receded. 
Then he slowed at licking himself raw. 
Dante lost ALL of his hair(about February), the first wave was his long coat and he looked bald. He was bald on his chest, tummy and shoulders. His short coat was rough.
Then he stopped weeping. His skin just had a crustiness that turned to a flaking.
Then his skin got softer where it was black and started to gray out. 
He would still lick his paws, scratch his ears and go over his bald spots.
But we kept up the bag balm.
His ears were still infected and stinky and we had to work super hard on them. 
By the end of that summer Dante had regrown all his hair, his skin was light gray soft and supple and he had no red, raw, hot, black or tough skin. 
His ears were still infected and we had to clean them so much.

During the worst of his episodes we did not train, or play much. And during the raw diet start up we did not train or work out. My main focus was on keeping his skin clean, supple with the balm and free of sores. Plus Dante did not feel liek doing anything but gnawing or licking himself. So keeping his maw off his sore skin was a task.

Just make sure that YOU are aware of everything going in and at what is coming out of him. Make sure no one else is sneaking him left overs, or treats that are not RAW. Make sure he is staying out of the garbage and/or not sneaking any other pet's or children's foods. 

Don't forget to get natural chews and treats. It is easy to over look a small biscuit or raw hide and not think they can do just as much damage as the kibble.

And please, please have some faith in the process. Your vet may or most likely will not support your decision to go RAW. And mine had scared me about trying to go raw. But the one I stuck with has seen the proof and she does not say anything bad about it now. She is utterly amazed and happy that Dante is feeling better.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

Heidigsd said:


> Don't take this the wrong way but it's time for your dog to see a specialist. Do you have any dermatologists or teaching hospitals where you live?
> 
> He looks like he's suffering, I can't even imagine  *You have gotten a lot of bad advise so far IMHO and I will leave it at that.*


completely this
raw isn't the answer to all problems
if dog's allergic to chicken, then what??
a specialist, esp. a holistic one
that dog has no quality of life at this point
if you talk to 100 people they'll give u 
100 diff advice
please get to a holistic vet
i hurt looking at that dog


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Wow.

I can not believe some of the posts.

Have you NOT been reading that Panzer is seeing a Vet and an Allergy vet?

Isn't an Allergy vet a specialist? Really?

Make the owner feel worse because they ask for HELP?

What is the matter with some of you?

My Dante WAS WORSE than the images posted of Panzer. We saw a vet and a secondary vet every month and they had no idea what to do. We did blood tests, skin tests and we were going to see a specialist at WSU in Wa.

RAW/B.A.R.F. may not be the answer, but, deciding against trying it and giving it a chance (with time) is no worse then treating the symptoms improperly with medicines and treatments that have already been exhausted.

Gibby knows that he/r Panzer feels like poop and appears miserable. They don't need others rubbing it in their face when they are seeking any way to possibly improve their pet's life.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

What is the matter with some of us????? Shouldn't we be asking that question? 

For certain people to diagnose and recommend treatment on here without any medical training is at the very least "irresponsible" 

Nothing wrong with people sharing their stories about what worked for them but to tell people what they need to do and to stay away from conventional medicine at all cost is ridiculous.

*gibby:* I don't know who did the allergy testing on your boy but if it wasn't done by a dermatologist it could be wrong, therefore treatment isn't working. What do you mean by "holistic allergy injections"? 

If you are only wanting to go the holistic route please find a veterinarian to help you with your dog. First you need a correct diagnosis so they can figure out a treatment plan. And as far as feeding raw I would go over to K9 Kitchen to get some help. Many of these diets (raw or cooked) that float around on the internet are horribly unbalanced. 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/K9Kitchen/info

And below you can read about the other side of feeding raw that they won't tell you about here. I just like for people to have the pros and cons so they can make an informed decision.

http://www.foodworldnews.com/articles/4822/20131220/drug-resistant-bacteria-found-in-97-percent-of-raw-chicken-sold-in-u-s-supermarket.htm

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/management_and_nutrition/nutrition_small_animals/dog_and_cat_foods.html

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/nutrition/resources/raw_meat_diets.pdf

http://www.csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/Articlespdf/Problems%20with%20Raw%20Meat.pdf

http://www.cvm.missouri.edu/News/backus07.htm


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am waiting to get an answer from a local vet that has seen a dramatic rise in a particular, "new" skin problem , that has resisted every treatment . Apparently over 50 per cent , 60 or more clinic time , lately, is dealing with this. 

The symptoms are a small spot which is itchy , and spreads and is flame red and oozing , skin like a bubble pack . When it heals the skin is rubbery and textured and the hair never grows back properly - length and texture different .
so far this is the only thing that works " The last shot Fraoch got was 1.5 ml of Depomedrol with the 1Duolocillin LA CANINE. The cost of both is fairly expensive . It does help though do us worth the effort" and a shampoo with " the shampoo is either one of UBA vet or Virbac epi soothe shampoo and cream rinse is Virbac‎ epi soothe cream rinse. " 
Vitamin E and D seem to help .
this particular dog is a friends dog , a cobby wire haired fox terrier. 
Wondering if it is some environmental or deficiency based problem.
These are experienced dog owners, 2 GSD of mine. Both husband and wife are in the medical field . Waiting for some knowledge from the vet , apparently conferencing with others in the area.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Well I hope Gibby gets back on board soon to read Nyx posts - very encouraging!

Heidi, Gibby is doing a LID diet it it's most primal, natural form (except the meat is from Wal-Mart, so not grass fed)...how is that any different from anybody else flip flopping around diff. LID kibble foods - other then the obvious - kibble is dead and you don't know what goes into it AND there are testimonials after testimonials of people who's dogs were restored to good health from a RAW food diet.

HE doesn't need to spend $400 on an e-mail consult from some woman who makes her living designing kibble ingredient diets in a natural form. i.e carrots, rice, berries etc. etc. 

What gibby needs is a holistic vet who can detox the carcinogens put into this dog who is immune compromised due to conventional methods of treatment.

Heidi: Furthermore, just because YOU don't believe in a RAW diet, doesn't mean no one else should. The sensationalism in your links is just that. Same old, same old, conventional argument - which goes back to profits, not concern for animal health (or human for that matter)

60 +% of disease can be cured with diet alone.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

carmspack said:


> " The last shot Fraoch got was 1.5 ml of Depomedrol with the 1Duolocillin LA CANINE. The cost of both is fairly expensive . It does help though do us worth the effort" and a shampoo with " the shampoo is either one of UBA vet or Virbac epi soothe shampoo and cream rinse is Virbac‎ epi soothe cream rinse. "



I can't tell on my phone, so I think I am quoting something you were quoting, my phone messes up things a lot, but.... Just to clarify and hipefully help, DepoMedrol is CHEAP, and is the Duolcillan LA. It's just penicillin. Like should be 2 pennies a CC. 
Just don't want your friend to get ripped off. I am glad it's working. I must say though. That I find it hilarious that with all the new fangled high end medicine, referrals, allergy tests, yadda yadda, the thing that helping is good old steroids and penicillin. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I can't tell on my phone, so I think I am quoting something you were quoting, my phone messes up things a lot, but.... Just to clarify and hipefully help, DepoMedrol is CHEAP, and is the Duolcillan LA. It's just penicillin. Like should be 2 pennies a CC.
> Just don't want your friend to get ripped off. I am glad it's working. I must say though. That I find it hilarious that with all the new fangled high end medicine, referrals, allergy tests, yadda yadda, *the thing that helping is good old steroids and penicillin.
> *
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
But that is the problem...that's not what is helping - it's what's hurting. Carmen also notes deficiency possibility. That would mean trace minerals, vitamins in bio-available form


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> For certain people to diagnose and recommend treatment on here without any medical training is at the very least "irresponsible"


Wow. Really. Are you a VET? 
Or are you a Vet Tech? 
If it is the former; congrats on passing vet school. Are you specialized in Canine medicine?
If so then please PM Myself and Gibby to find out the more specific symptoms and all the TREATMENTS we have tried. And you can even contact my Vet and see what she has to say. 
If you are a Vet Tech; then you only know what you have seen in the office and then what worked for that patient.
Basically if is walks like a duck, and quack likes a duck, then it must be a duck. 



Heidigsd said:


> Nothing wrong with people sharing their stories about what worked for them but to tell people what they need to do and to stay away from conventional medicine at all cost is ridiculous.


Did anyone say, 'STAY AWAY from the VET'? NO.
Did anyone say, 'Stay away from a specialist or derma, or (________)'?

NO.




Heidigsd said:


> *gibby:* I don't know who did the allergy testing on your boy but if it wasn't done by a dermatologist it could be wrong, therefore treatment isn't working. What do you mean by "holistic allergy injections"?
> 
> If you are only wanting to go the holistic route please find a veterinarian to help you with your dog. First you need a correct diagnosis so they can figure out a treatment plan. And as far as feeding raw I would go over to K9 Kitchen to get some help. Many of these diets (raw or cooked) that float around on the internet are horribly unbalanced.


I think you MISSED the parts where Panzers mom/dad Gibby said that they WERE seeing a Vet and a Allergy Vet.

And if telling my "story" as you say helps this dog to better health and well being then I will scream it. I will post it over, and over and over and clarify what I did for my Dante and how AWESOME he is now physically.

I have a vet that has SEEN the change and she has NOTHING bad to say about the Diet and lack of medicines and steroids my dog now has to take.

and let me repeat:
*Gibby and Panzer,

I have posted to you previously in your other thread. 

I understand that you want to do the VERY best for your Panzer and that you have exhausted every treatment option the Vet has given you. 

And I know that the Veterinarian and Vet Techs are trained professionals.

But they have no idea what the process for making commercial kibble is. (Does any one truly?)

And I can't say that the commercial kibble is sub standard or processed too much for real dietary needs of canines.

But I can attest to the change in my dog. So can my Vet.

I can tell you what I fed my dog and I can tell you exactly what my dog suffered.

And I can tell you what I tried. And I can tell you what I changed.

And I can tell you how Dante is now.

Even show you a picture, but, not having the past images does not help you.

I can tell you I am not promoting any products, brand name, vet or any supplement.

I just wanted my dog to be healthy and happy.

And Now I want to help any one who has a dog suffering similar symptoms.

GatorBytes, Carmen and Mom helped me so much. I have to give them much gratitude for my Dante, because he has never met them but his health has greatly improved by my knowing them(through this site). *


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Can someone explain to me why you rub coconut oil on the skin?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

> Wow. Really. Are you a VET?
> Or are you a Vet Tech?
> If it is the former; congrats on passing vet school. Are you specialized in Canine medicine?
> If so then please PM Myself and Gibby to find out the more specific symptoms and all the TREATMENTS we have tried. And you can even contact my Vet and see what she has to say.
> ...


I think you should calm down just a little bit  
You don't have to bet a vet to use common sense. 
Seems that certain people get very upset almost when you disagree with them. I have news for you...*WE* are also allowed to post on this board and you don't have to like it.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Well I hope Gibby gets back on board soon to read Nyx posts - very encouraging!

Heidi, Gibby is doing a LID diet it it's most primal, natural form (except the meat is from Wal-Mart, so not grass fed)...how is that any different from anybody else flip flopping around diff. LID kibble foods - other then the obvious - kibble is dead and you don't know what goes into it AND there are testimonials after testimonials of people who's dogs were restored to good health from a RAW food diet. I honestly don't care what people feed their dogs. It's the one-sided representation of a raw diet that gets to me. Just give *ALL* the facts and not just the ones *YOU* want people to see.

HE doesn't need to spend $400 on an e-mail consult from some woman who makes her living designing kibble ingredient diets in a natural form. i.e carrots, rice, berries etc. etc. What are you talking about??? You really are clueless!

What gibby needs is a holistic vet who can detox the carcinogens put into this dog who is immune compromised due to conventional methods of treatment. 

Heidi: Furthermore, just because YOU don't believe in a RAW diet, doesn't mean no one else should. The sensationalism in your links is just that. Same old, same old, conventional argument - which goes back to profits, not concern for animal health (or human for that matter) It doesn't matter whether or not I believe in it. But you honestly want people to believe that you "GatorBytes", a stranger on the internet knows better than these veterinary teaching hospitals :laugh: 

60 +% of disease can be cured with diet alone. Let's see some evidence, I am sure you have tons!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if had to choose
between a kibble my dog 
was not allergic to
or raw he or she was allergic to
i'd take the kibble every time


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hew boya...lots of suggestions here. I think the best thing to do, is take these suggestions and write them all down in an organized manner. Do further research on your own on each suggestion. And take the list to your vet.

The last thing you should be doing is throwing all sorts of new things at your dog at once. There is validity in holistic methods but there needs to be a balance in what you are doing. I can't think of a single time that I just jumped on a suggestion and went with it. I always, always, always, do more research and discuss with my vets.

Holistic may mean natural but supplements are still "medicine". Many supplements can counteract a "modern" med.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Holy **** guys! There is no need for people to start tearing each other apart on this thread. I've decided to go the holistic method with the RAW diet because conventional methods have outright FAILED. My conventional vet recognizes this and refuses to provide anymore medication whether it be steroid or anti-biotic. They informed me it will only mask the issues and will not correct it which is clear since he's been dosed with both almost ten times at this point. 

The Allergy shots are custom tailored shots that contain small dosages of his allergens which he receives on a monthly basis to help his immune system build a tolerance to his environmental allergies. I have decided to continue with these shots because they are for environmental allergies only, not for food allergies (because the vet says they do not help with food allergies since they are consumed....).

I have contacted a local holistic vet as I posted previously, and they verbally confirmed that which Gator and Carmen and Nyx has been advising me to do. Literally to the T. I can appreciate where everyone is coming from and everyone is entitled to their own beliefs but arguing back and forth on my thread isn't help anyone. Rather it's just pissing me off. We're all adults here so let's act like it.

So again, I've already exhausted all conventional medications to the point my vet simply will not give anymore. From this point I WILL be going forth with a natural holistic approach which includes the RAW diet. So unless it's a natural remedy or holistic vet please refrain from posting your responses on here because I've already done all I can with my traditional vet. I still regularly attend my vet once a month with Panzer and continue to take any and all suggestions they provide me.

Nyx thank you for your inspiring information on your own dogs recovery! I'm thrilled to hear that your dog was worse off and fully recovered. (not thrilled your dog was that sick, just thrilled he bounced back as he did) And Gator I know it's only been three weeks I was just hoping he would have stopped gnawing new spots on his body.

Now I remember reading that Nyx applied Bag Balm on his dog to help the skin. Is this something I should also apply? Or should I stick only to CO? I'll continue getting the unrefined stuff, I think it works better any how. I also cover his body after every application with a long sleeved shirt to help keep him from licking it off before it does any good........

Thanks again everyone for all your advice! Let's keep it civil though folks!


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

_Bag Balm on his dog to help the skin. Is this something I should also apply?_

Not sure what Bag Balm is but I have recently started giving coconut oil to my 2 internally.

I see here people suggest rubbing coconut oil onto the actual skin?

Do you know why you would do this? Is it to relieve the itchiness or does putting it on the skin have other therapeutic benefits?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hey , a pat on the head , wag wag that'll keep me going for a while !
"I have contacted a local holistic vet as I posted previously, and they verbally confirmed that which Gator and Carmen and Nyx has been advising me to do. Literally to the T . "


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Bag Balm- You can get it OTC at any pharmacy or animal store. Animal stores also offer a Vet Pet Balm. nearly the same thing just different packaging.

It is just thicker then CO and creates a protective barrier between the skin and your dogs tongue and other elements.

CO- It has anti micorbic/bacterial properties and will help in killing any yeast and other bugs that might be on your dogs skin. And it also helps to condition/protect the skin. And the un-refined cold pressed CO seems to work the best for us.

With my Dante the CO was helpful on his skin. But he liked to lick it more. So I got the Bag Balm and it stayed put through is gnawing and licking. It also water proofed his feet when they were raw.

I know I kept a food/med diary for Dante. And noted any concerns or improvements in his symptoms and for how long they seemed to last. And yes conventional meds did help him briefly, but quickly wore off and his symptoms would return much worse in a quicker fashion than the first time he had been treated with that medicine.

Gibby I think you are doing very well, especially with all your worry and the current failure of the traditional route with veterinary medicine and counsel. 
I can tell you want to do the best you can for Panzer. 

I know you don't know me from _adam_ nor can I offer you images of Dante to compare when he was so sick. And that was my fault for not having the guts to do so when he was utterly miserable. But I can offer you my experiences and the out come and hope that they truly help you and your Panzer.


Side note:
I will apologize for my combative reading/sounding statements. 
I do get passionate about what I know to be true. 

And I do know and have no problem with anyone posting their own advice, thoughts, concerns and truths. 

What I wont apologize for is sticking up for those who seek help and advice and getting scary and down right demeaning statements in return. 

/end note.


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

add:

Dante did not immediately stop trying to gnaw and lick at himself. 

I had to keep cotton shirts on him with the bag balm and chastise him when I caught him licking/gnawing.

He did not stop until the skin was just black/gray(like elephant skin), not hot to the touch or weeping/crusty.

The heat in the red area's started to recede by three/four weeks(not completely disappearing but not radiating out from the source as far).

Then the red started to go away/ seem smaller and then it turned gray. 

The crusties/weeping took the longest on the black skin, but it was turning to flakes by two/three months. 

Then he lost all his hair, like a heavy shed. It looked like a ragged summer coat but real thin.

The black/gray skin took the longest to turn pink and normal texture again. And both vet's I had been consulting told me it would likely never be pink again.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Nyx your fine. If anything I appreciate you chiming in to back me up. I'm stressed out enough about the whole process.....I mean I've tried EVERYTHING else........I figure I might as well give the same devotion to seeing the treatment through as I did everything else. I don't need people giving me gripe about going down an unconventional path.....Im skeptical as is but many people say its done wonders for their animals and I'll be damned if my skepticism gets in the way of Panzer's health. I suppose you were all probably skeptics at first too......


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Absolutely Gibby. I was really nervous and did not know where to start, how or where to get supplies.

But I sought help because Dante was just getting worse and worse and I was afraid he would be miserable the rest of his life.

The two vets I had; one is his vet since I got him. The second was a second consult vet that was supposed to be very competent. And thankfully my father worked for VCA in Buena Park CA. Through his work and personal contacts we met and spoke through email with Dr. Moore from WSU. 

So we had all the conventional medicine treatments available to us. I spent gobs of money and time doing them to be absolutely heart broken when I saw the red hot spots showing back up. Cause I knew shortly he'd have the black skin and weeping.

I know you are scared, both of Panzers current state and failing him through all the treatments. I know you are scared he wont feel better with this regiment in foods and allergy treatments. And I know the pain his eyes give you when he watches you skulkily because he thinks you are only going to apply, wash, or wrap him up in more medicine or clothing. Dante still gives me the 'look' when he thinks I have something he needs to hide from.

And I don't absolutely know that this diet will cure your puppy. But I know the images you posted, I know the information you have shared, and I honestly BELIEVE that he is suffering the same condition my Dante had.

My vet does not know what to call it. So they labeled it as either environmental or food born allergies. But she knows what I have done with his diet. We have a complete record of all the medicines he was on and the commercial and special order kibble and canned food we tried.

And when I stated we were trying this RAW diet, she was afraid. She warned me of the risks and diseases that Dante could contract from eating RAW. And she stated that diet alone could not solve all the problems we were trying to cure.

And every month after we started she was amazed. She asks me what we are doing every time she see's him. We go for weight checks and just to say Hi. She says she would not believe it if she had not been treating him. And she has nothing negative to say anymore.

I talked with butchers and the local food stores. And I had already known about a health food store in town. I check on-line here for advice and support when things get out of my comfort level or I am not sure. My vet is very supportive now and she will look into things as well to help us.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Gator or Carmen........Should I apply CO to the skin once a day and then later apply Bag Balm to his skin after the CO is absorbed/rubbed off? The Bag Balm stayed on his skin through out the night and it seems to have actually deterred him from licking/gnawing his old sores and helped keep him from creating new ones! I just feel as if I stop using the CO I might hinder his bodies battle against the yeast. 

What should I do?? Oh and to clarify I am a male (I noticed some awkwardness when addressing my gender  )


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> Gator or Carmen........Should I apply CO to the skin once a day and then later apply Bag Balm to his skin after the CO is absorbed/rubbed off? The Bag Balm stayed on his skin through out the night and it seems to have actually deterred him from licking/gnawing his old sores and helped keep him from creating new ones! I just feel as if I stop using the CO I might hinder his bodies battle against the yeast.
> 
> What should I do?? Oh and to clarify I am a male (I noticed some awkwardness when addressing my gender  )




Why not apply the CO, and put the bag balm over it. Then the bb would add a layer of protection from being licked off and seal the CO in to do it's job. Allow the CO to absorb though...that's what I love about CO as it absorbs readily unlike other carrier oils suggested for applying essential oils.

Have you looked into neem at all. I have a couple links will add later on - have to take care of my doggies needs right now.

just while on subject of CO and carrier oils...


Thanks for the clarification guy...lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

admittedly Bag Balm is not a favourite of mine .
I don't like the petrolatum (Vaseline) . Lanolin I can buy straight. I like Vetericyn , Usnea , -- high lauric acid (high phenolic acid) virgin coconut oil . What’s in Bag Balm, Anyway? | askdrlouise.com

if you decide to use Bag Balm I would put Coconut oil on first to allow it to soak in .


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

gibby, I think it's good to explore all options, which you are obviously doing.

I like taking a holistic approach to preventing problems, but conventional medicine is sometimes necessary for acute trauma or health crisis.

As for RAW vs kibble, here is a hugely long list of recalled kibble from 2013/2012 published by the AVMA, mostly for salmonella contamination:

https://www.avma.org/news/issues/recalls-alerts/pages/pet-food-safety-recalls-alerts.aspx

There have been no recalls of commercially prepared raw diets FWIW, and I'm pretty sure meat sold for human consumption (if that is what you're feeding) has some pretty strict regulations, so I think the RAW food scare tactic is pretty lame. There are risks with it, sure, but there are with kibble as well.

What I think RAW does give you is a chance to completely eliminate any unnecessary fillers from the dogs diet, which is really helpful when trying to figure out what is triggering these reactions.

OP, you are doing a good job. You've tried conventional medicine and got nowhere, so now holistic might give you some ideas on things to try. It's great that you're keeping an open mind.

It might help to keep a detailed journal of what your dog ate that day, what the weather was like (time of year, what is pollenating/growing in the surrounding area) etc etc. Maybe you can figure out some of the pieces of the puzzle that way, if you can find some sort of a pattern developing.

I really feel for you. Last year my dog had allergies which led to a pyoderma infection, her hair was falling out, she was a mess. It's frustrating and heartbreaking to see them go through that, I hope you can figure something out that will help.

ETA: while you don't want to overdo it with baths, it can sometimes help to rinse off contact allergens off the skin, you might do a bath every now and then (if you aren't already) or a rinse/dip. Stay away from Oatmeal based shampoo's, they are soothing to the skin, but can also feed yeast on the skin.

Nyx, that is an amazing story, thanks for sharing your experience.


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

I agree with Gator and Carmen on the putting the CO on and letting absorb in, then adding the Bag Balm.

And I recall you stating that you were not letting Panzer out to exercise much. But when he is outside for longer periods I would do a rinse. It's like a wipe down with wet wipes or you can use a spray. The vet gave me a spray to use. 

And make sure to wipe his feet when he comes in, if you don't have them wrapped.

For wrapping the feet I used toddler knee high socks. I got a few packs of six for a few bucks at wal-mart. I washed them between uses with bleach. I layered his paws in Bag Balm, ran the sock over his foot and then wrapped it with the Vet Wrap. And the Vet Wrap can be re used if it is clean and not all crinkled.

And I don't know any other substitutes for Bag Balm. I do know that the pet stores sell a Balm that is "pet safe" and I have used it. It is called 'Vet Pet Balm' or something similar in name. But it did not seem to work as well for me. It was not as thick and did not last as long.

BTW, how is Panzer feeling now?
Any improvements?
Has the 'heat' and/or redness started to dissipate at all?


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> _Bag Balm on his dog to help the skin. Is this something I should also apply?_
> 
> Not sure what Bag Balm is but I have recently started giving coconut oil to my 2 internally.
> 
> ...


Rubbing the CO on the skin has antibacterial properties which helps get rid of yeast and other pest issues. And yes it also does help condition the skin, helps with the itch, and aids in the healing of any raw areas. Hope this helps  Oh and Bag Balm is an old topical ointment that was originally used to help cow utters heal from being chapped due to milking. It's really thick like Vaseline but has other skin healing aids in it as well. I grew up on the stuff for burns, skin irritations and even shallow cuts/scrapes. Does wonders for sting and itch due to healing. (Personal experience)


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

oh and I have a question for anyone who can answer it. In a lot of posts I find people writing OP. What in the world does OP stand for?


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Nyx as an update Panzer is in better spirits today but his skin's redness seems to come and go. I'm unsure whats triggering these "flare ups". I can only assume it's from dust since we have forced hot air heating here (mobile home) and its nearly impossible to keep up on. He's lost quite a bit more hair from his chewing, to the point his hair line is approaching his spine. You said Dante lost all his hair before he got better, was that due to it just falling out or from him chewing it? It seems like his hair is whats bothering him since he leaves the bald areas alone and only chews on the hair bordering the bald areas.

Is this normal?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> oh and I have a question for anyone who can answer it. In a lot of posts I find people writing OP. What in the world does OP stand for?


 Original Poster (The person who started the thread. usually used if cannot remember who they are addressing, or the avatar name is too long or complicated...LOL)


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks Gator! That was bothering me.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Here is an article about SeaCure by The Whole Dog Journal 

http://www.becauseofbuddy.com/image...UP_-_Whole_Dog_Journal_Article_April_2003.pdf


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Well I'm sold. I'm buying it right away!


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I am SO glad Gator recommended this and that you are going to try the SeaCure!

I used SeaCure's sister product......SeaVive which is a combo of SeaCure + Colostrum + Beta Gluten.

Our female (raw fed since 3 weeks old/VERY minimal vaccinations) developed a bare spot on her foot after we hiked some backwoods trails on vacation. I had a scraping done by our vet and nothing came up. I treated it for about 2 months with several natural types of things to no avail. Then I worked her up to 5 capsules daily, divided, and within 3 weeks, it was gone! We hiked the same area again 2 months later and the spot came back, started her on the SeaVive when we got home, and again within 2-3 weeks it was gone, and hasn't returned! 

My husband and I take it every day to boost our immune system during the winter, or any time we feel "something" coming on!

I have a lot of info on both products is you would like it!

Good luck!
Moms


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> Nyx as an update Panzer is in better spirits today but his skin's redness seems to come and go. I'm unsure whats triggering these "flare ups". I can only assume it's from dust since we have forced hot air heating here (mobile home) and its nearly impossible to keep up on. He's lost quite a bit more hair from his chewing, to the point his hair line is approaching his spine. You said Dante lost all his hair before he got better, was that due to it just falling out or from him chewing it? It seems like his hair is whats bothering him since he leaves the bald areas alone and only chews on the hair bordering the bald areas.
> 
> Is this normal?


Is the hairless skin all gray/black?
and in the area's he is gnawing at, the 'hair-line' where he has some and is loosing it, is the skin red and hot to the touch under the hair?
if it is red and hot, that is likely the newest area to be affected by the "what ever" allergen and is really bugging him. 
I really had to keep these area's covered. With the CO and Bag Balm and wrapped under a cotton shirt until the heat and redness went away.
Dante Lost all his hair as the black/gray skin started to turn pink. 
It was like all the bad stuff had to be shed as he was getting healthier. I think even the hair was infused with the "bad stuff" and it had to be shed away.

On Dante the red skin was hot feeling. It was the newest area's that were being affected. The black/gray skin was the area after the red had irritated it. It then seeped this gross yellow stuff that crusted and flaked on his skin and in his hair.

And if the redness is receding then returning, it may be that his system is now flushing out the bad stuff. It might help if you took images daily or drew a line between the red area and pink skin. To give you a visual if it is actually receding or spreading out more.

And the more he has his paws and teeth on it, the more the color may change as he aggravates the area. I know how difficult it is to keep them from irritating it more - but the less he gnaws or itches the better for him.

I did have to get a Victorian color for Dante at the worst of it. It was $80 and it is like a huge belt that goes around his neck and has a strap that went about his chest. He broke his donuts every time he went out doors and on the tables inside and they gave us this 'flower' like thing that was supposed to keep him from reaching himself, but he learned how to bend it against the wall.

I think that might be the best thing right now. Save you some head-ache and spare him from hurting himself more by chewing and licking.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I didn't read this whole thread, but, Nyx, did you ever run a full thyroid panel on Dante? It might be something to consider. You can find out more: Hemopet Canine Blood Bank, Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory & Greyhound Rescue


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

has this dog had a skin biopsy 
to figure out exactly the causitive factor
if allergies or in fact a horrible resistant bacterial infection?


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

They did do several tests. 
They had said they ruled out thyroid, mange, mites and we did a broad spectrum allergy test. The generic in house blood allergen test dealie with the normal blood testing (I'm assuming it is a CBC for canines). 
The allergy test told us we were allergic to everything, basically.

We were leaning to an allergy specialist and talking with VCA staff about other options, because the steroids were no longer working and the benedryl was just making him tired.

I would have to stop by and get copies of the results if you want more detailed info. At the time I was more worried about what they found, rather than what they did not find. 

Once we started the diet and he improved I did not have any more tests done. 

The vet has ok'd his health as we went and he has no issues now. 

The only thing that happened since was if he eats too much EVO he starts to get ear infections. Which were one of the first hints of his system going down. We then wash his ears and return to his normal diet and he heals. 

I went on a two week vaca and came back to washing ears. So two weeks of kibble and he starts to get 'sick'.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Nyx said:


> *The allergy test told us we were allergic to everything, basically.
> *
> 
> The vet has ok'd his health as we went and *he has no issues now.*
> ...


 Interesting re: "allergy" tests


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Interesting re: "allergy" tests


I find it absolutely amazing that *diet* alone has been the cure.

Yes, we did use veterinary medical treatments. Yes, these treatments did seem to help immediately. Only to have Dante revert back in worse condition than before the treatments.

If I had not seen this in person I would never have believed it. Our vet says the same things. 

I still can not believe that two vets(physically in person), and numerous consults with University vets that none of them could pin-point a cause.
Just a general yeast affliction with a low immune system( likely cause he was sick) and caused by "allergies".

Yeah _allergens_ in his commercial made kibble.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i meant gibby's dog


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> i meant gibby's dog



I was answering another question. Sorry my boy Diesel.

The OP did have a generic allergy test as well. And they are working with a holistic allergy specialist presently.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

an allergy test is not a biopsy
where they determine exactly why
the dog is itching
if an allergy or a severe bacterial infection


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> an allergy test is not a biopsy
> where they determine exactly why
> the dog is itching
> if an allergy or a severe bacterial infection


 
So called allergies were determined, YEAST was determined, bacteria has been determined as a result of scratching.

What has also been determined is that with the exception of using a toxic drug like cyclosporine Big pharma has run out of options.

Why are you having trouble with nutritional therapy as medicine? Did you know certain elements, vitamins and minerals are ANTI-bacterial and these are abundant in RAW. 

Raw diet ~ is being done

Sugars feed yeast - no starches (carbs) ~ has been removed

repopulating the digestive tract with probiotic to repopulate the gut from the damage done by abx. ~ being done

digestive enzymes to break food down to assist nutrient absorption to fuel the body while it works on detoxing and regeneration of new cells ~ being done


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

because the dog is still miserable
and looks like someone 
took a blowtorch to it


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm going to chime in and offer my 2 cents. I have an old female shepherd mix and she had severe yeast problems (oozing wet under the neck, smelly wet gunky ears, greasy skin, bald spots from itching). She was an outside dog living in moist environment. She was fed mid-grade kibble. Anyways this is what I did and she's pretty yeast free for the most part as in no more stink/greasy coat, yeasty ears, or any bald itchy spots. I went to the vet and all they did was put her on steroids, gave me an ear flush, gave me a skin protectorant thing and the vet was no help at all with her problems.

1. I switched her to raw. If you're starting out with raw, go easy on organs - maybe even omit it for 2-3 weeks. 
2. I put her on probiotics for a month (purina fortiflora). This helped, but is not needed anymore and you could probably go without it.
3. I bathed her in malaseb (the frequency depends on how fast yeast comes back, 1x a week is good). There are other medicated shampoos you can get on amazon such as virbac or zymox.
4. Eliminate all treats except for real meat treats only. No biscuits and no store bought superficial treats. Treats should only be freeze dried, dehydrated, REAL meat with no other additives at all.
5. Clean the ears once a day. I used a medicated ear flush (first one I got from vet). At first you will have to use a flush if there are stuff in the ear canals. Squirt a lot into the ear and let it fill up and massage the canal. Let the dog shake it out and repeat again. the dog will shake it out and it will air dry on its own. After the ears are clear of gunk, you can use dilute soln of 50/50 water and apple cider vinegar for a cleaning soln. Either use the flush or use acv, just stick with one. I would dip a cotton ball with acv soln and stick in dog's ear and squeeze liquid out into ear canal. Massage and let dog shake it out. You can then take another clean cotton ball and clean/dry the ears.

It didn't take long for her to clear up especially once I eliminated all bad treats.

Next, I have a belgian shepherd mix with hot spots. At first I tried the coconut oil on his coat after a bath. IT WAS THE WORSE THING TO DO FOR HIM. He completely broke out in hives and he ripped his fur out. So, no coconut oil for him. Coconut oil is also too rich for him to ingest. Just one tsp 1x a day gave him runs. 

This is what I do for him

1. Switched his food to grain free kibble.
2. Bathe him in cooler water with a neem type soap free shampoo.
3. Eliminate all junk food - store bought treats or anything food that can trigger yeast.
4. For his hotspots, I shaved the area then wiped it down with a soaked cloth in dilute povidone-iodine solution 10%. I bought this in a local hardware/pet supply store. This soln is safe if it is ingested by the dog. Wash the area once a day with the solution and pat dry. Sometimes I spray the infected area with acv, but it stings so I prefer the povidone-iodine soln. The iodine soln is a "non-irritating, non-stinging topical antiseptic for degerming skin". I also notice for my belgian mix, he is more itchy during the warmer months and with warmer indoor temps. 

My opinion is to start with a natural diet and don't over complicate it. Eliminating "treats" would help tremendously. Purchase a medicated shampoo specifically for yeast such as malaseb. Purchase or make an ear flush. If I were you, I'd stop putting coconut oil on the dog's coat. Anyways, I just wanted to share the things that worked for my problem dogs.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

good info thank you for providing
clear case of
one sizes does not fit all


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

even Selsun blue fortified is good for yeast infections (fungal)

Olive leaf powder is anti fungal . Add to diet . 

You could have used zymox for the ears - probably the best product .


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

zymox is excellent proven product for ears
and now makes all sorts of
skin products as well
i'm a believer after our dog
had a yeast inf. in ear and
within days
zymox healed it
used it for the full 2 weeks
and it's completely cleared

PRODUCTS

your dog has what is called _malassezia pachydermatis_
this zymox would fix that
plus if it is a horrid skin infection like mrsa
it would take care of that as well


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Nyx, his skin was red and irritated around the hairline as you said and felt hot. I continued rubbing CO and Bag Balm over his skin and as an update he stopped chewing for two days now! His skin wasn't bright red today and his energy and mood was awesome today. Hopefully it stays this way. Sorry for the lengthy delay in between posts......I'm a bit of an internet flake.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

met again with my friends yesterday , both in the medical fields - and another with a chemistry background -- . 

"








Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_" The last shot Fraoch got was 1.5 ml of Depomedrol with the 1Duolocillin LA CANINE. The cost of both is fairly expensive . It does help though do us worth the effort" and a shampoo with " the shampoo is either one of UBA vet or Virbac epi soothe shampoo and cream rinse is Virbac‎ epi soothe cream rinse. " _


I can't tell on my phone, so I think I am quoting something you were quoting, my phone messes up things a lot, but.... Just to clarify and hipefully help, DepoMedrol is CHEAP, and is the Duolcillan LA. It's just penicillin. Like should be 2 pennies a CC. 
Just don't want your friend to get ripped off. I am glad it's working. I must say though. That I find it hilarious that with all the new fangled high end medicine, referrals, allergy tests, yadda yadda, the thing that helping is good old steroids and penicillin. 

gsdsar , I questioned them about the depromedrol which is not an antibiotic penicillin but a corticosteroid. Duplocillin is a long lasting penicillin.
Expensive . yes , here it is , where these drugs are controlled .

which leads me to a new thread ..... new skin problems .. where I will reference this post and this thread to continue a discussion .


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> Nyx, his skin was red and irritated around the hairline as you said and felt hot. I continued rubbing CO and Bag Balm over his skin and as an update he stopped chewing for two days now! His skin wasn't bright red today and his energy and mood was awesome today. Hopefully it stays this way. Sorry for the lengthy delay in between posts......I'm a bit of an internet flake.



Oh my Goodness. Promising post!

*That is a HUGE improvement so far.*:happyboogie:

I will keep my fingers and toes crossed for Panzer. 

Just be vigilant in the steps you are taking. 

Just remember it is a process. Think how long he has been suffering and now it all has to reverse out. And healing often takes longer than getting sick.

And I would definitely try to keep a log of what is going in him, how much and when. So if there are any set backs you can try to detect what it was that was recently introduced to his system.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

It's been a couple of weeks. How about an update  

How is our Panzer doing?


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Gator as an update Panzer is still having spells of red/itchy patches. It seems to be getting better but very slowly now. He did start oozing some yellowy discharge but not much. Using Nyx's experience as a guideline I'm assuming this is a sign of progress.


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## snow_leopard (Oct 3, 2013)

My GSD is also 2 years and has bad skin reaction for over a year now. It started when we went away for 3 weeks and put him in a dog hotel. He developed dermodectic mange for which he was treated. Since then it has been a constant battle. We determined he was allergic to chicken, and switched to a turkey and duck kibble. The kibble we used was fairly high end - Acana/Orijen and the holistic Now! for large breeds. But he was still scratching and very itchy.

Towards the middle/end of November we switched to RAW [BCR which is a very good brand] and started with beef. He seemed to improve then went downhill from there - he lost about 3-4 kg and we were feeding 3%+ of his weight. He also developed diarhea and started vomitting. He was insanely itchy.

The vet told us we need to give him something he has never been exposed to and in North America that is kangaroo. Finding affordable pure raw kangaroo in Ontario Canada is impossible...So then we moved back to kibble - a veterinary diet  - IAMS Kangaroo. He is still itchy, but the fur is starting to grow back on his ears and the change is OMG remarkable. He has got his drive back. And this is after less than 3 weeks! I do sport scenting with him and the folks I do it with say he is a different dog - even I can't believe how well he is working!

There is another brand in the US that makes a kangaroo based food - but that company has been subject to numerous recalls - so did not want to risk that.

Much as I hate science diets and think they are really poor quality, I will give my dog anything at this stage that will make him feel/get better. 

One thing we did notice though, is that when the temperature drops to -5C and below he gets more itchy. 

If your dog does not improve, RAW may not be working for him. I would honestly recommend you trying the IAMS Kangaroo - it requires a vet script to get - it's freaking expensive [about CAD 112 for a 13 kg bag], but worth it if it works for your dog.

Just as an FYI - my vet was (1) kangaroo (2) cook his meals [but the recommended recipes used beef and chicken] and (3) vegetarian.

RAW doesn't work for all dogs - during my research I found that the most common food sensitivities in dogs are:
beef, dairy products, chicken, lamb, fish, chicken eggs, corn, wheat, and soy....

Some-one earlier in the post recommended you do a food sensitivity check, I would highly recommend that if you want to stick with RAW. And I would not do the common ones first - I would do something like rabbit or bison. What my vet told me is true though, the dog food industry are now also creating a wide variety of dog treats - I know I gave Thor rabbit ears, bison and wild boar treats in the past. That counts as being exposed to that food...

Just my 2 cents.

PS: the correct name for the kangaroo food is Iams® Veterinary Formula™ Skin & Coat Plus Response™ KO


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## SchatziGSD11 (Mar 9, 2014)

I would like to tell you ALL how helpful you have been! It is nice to have somewhere to turn in times like these! I am sorry that all of you had to go through this but am happy that everyone is so kind to offer the solutions from their experience and more suggestions to Gibby and anyone else who is experiencing these types of issues!! 

Gibby- I hope that Panzer continues to improve! 

Just wanted you all to know how kind you are for sharing!! 

::with love::



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

experience working with a person who had gone that route of changing proteins beginning with the "usual suspects" then lamb , duck, turkey, rabbit , bush baby , ostrich, kangaroo and finally llama and alpaca . 
Each and every protein he moved to was "good!" for a short time .

The symptom was treated but not the cause 

He had no fix . The problem or cause was that the dog needed to break down the protein that he was getting . Break down the food he was getting . The reason why he had a temporary relief was because the dogs body was not responding to large undigested protein molecules and other indigested substances which can cross the intestinal lining and enter the bloodstream. There they will be treated like any other foreign invader , bacteria , virus, rogue cells , by an activated immune response , mild at first then being hypersensitized .

The formula from the vet , using Iams Vet 
*Ingredients*



Oat Flour, Kangaroo, Canola Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E, and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Fish Oil (preserved with Ethoxyquin), Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Dicalcium Phosphate, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganous Oxide, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Thiamine Mononitrate (souce of Vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Folic Acid, Cobalt Carbonate

may have a greater volume of indigestible fibre than kangaroo meat .

Beet pulp has no nutritional value . It does firm stools, and it feeds a healthy beneficial gut flora -- if that is in order - acting as a pre biotic for the probiotic bacteria.

Few years back it would have been peanut shells. 

Oat flour like beet pulp helps create nice stools.

But so does optimized digestion , using digestive enzymes to help the process , without filler which takes place of more expensive and necessary proteins. 

If you want or need to feed kangaroo maybe a better route would be to source the raw meat from an exotic or specialty butcher ?

My concern would be the canola meal . I am guessing they are using it because it, like kangaroo, is a novelty item which would not initially elicit a strong allergic response ? Little to no nutritive value.
Used as a farm feed for cattle, swine, farmed fish , chickens.

This is controversial as an ingredient . I don't even use canola oil as a cooking oil. The big problems is GMO. 
I live in a community that pre-subdivisions was blazing yellow in the fall with fields of canola - rapeseed . Big signs telling you which patches were fertilized , or treated with what . Pioneer test plots gathering data on crop yields . GMO has to be identified. 

The canola meal is a by product of the oil extraction - done by use of solvents.

Can you think of a better way to feed your dog?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*oozing some yellowy discharge*

that is infection if it is coming from the red open areas
see when dogs scratch themselves they open their skin for bacteria to gain entrance
if your dog is oozing this could very well be e coli or even staph or strep infection of the skin
since the skin is the largest organ on the body this can be devastating
not to mention the dog is continually fighting a huge infection and can take a toll on its immune system more than it already has

as others said raw is not for everyone
if you are using a diet that the dog is allergic to it doesnt matter if you cook it or use it in kibble or feed it raw the dog is gonna be sick


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

carmspack said:


> The formula from the vet , using Iams Vet
> *Ingredients*
> 
> 
> ...



Ethoxyquin as a preservative was banned in human products. It is also used as a rubber stabilizer in tires.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> *oozing some yellowy discharge*
> 
> that is infection if it is coming from the red open areas
> see when dogs scratch themselves they open their skin for bacteria to gain entrance
> ...


 
The dog was allergy tested - pork was on the list.

Oozing yellowy discharge is infection "leaving the body"


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Gibby:

Are you still taking Panzer to the holistic vet for his allergy shots?

And if so, are his 'flair ups' in any routine timing after these shots?

If they happen to co-incide with the shots, let your vet know. The strength of the allergy shots may be too much yet. 

An allergy shot is a serum made of the triggers that Panzer was sensitive to. They increase the amount of allergens in each new shot, in a hope to build up his sensitivity/immunity to the allergens. 

If he is having break outs after new shots they may need to ease the level of allergens in the shots.

I would definitely let them know that his healing has slowed now.

And make sure you are staying on top of the itching/gnawing. If he is able to get to an area he will cause new oozing. 

Also if you introduced anew type of food product or treats they may be causing a reaction as well. 

I will keep everything crossed for your Panzer that he returns to a quicker state of healing. But remember it did take us at least three months to get rid of all the red, oozing, and then the flakes had to be brushed all off.


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## Minoli (Jul 19, 2011)

I had a very similar case to yours Gibby, it is still present but has gotten much better. My girlfriend and I got our dog, Leo (8 weeks old) in August of 2011, and began feeding raw in February of 2012. He was fed raw until March/April of 2013, when we switched back to kibble. He developed hot spots all over his stomach, raw/flaky skin on the tips of his ears (still present), a dry nose (still present), ear infections and chewed at his paws and legs excessively. He also had black flaky patches on his cheeks. I switched to raw because I wanted to provide him with the most beneficial diet possible. 

We went to our vet, who concluded that it wasn't mange. He gave us alcohol wipes and topical cream to put on his cheeks which cleared it up. Although I can't exactly recall what we were prescribed by our vet, I felt like we were getting the run around. Most vets seem to give you a solution to mask the problem, instead of actually figuring out what causes it and removing the cause from the environment/diet for a permanent solution. 

We then went to a holistic vet that conducted tests by having a variety of raw meat in a small test tube, in which the vets assistant held the test tubes of raw meat to Leo's side, and the vet would see how easily the assistants arm would go down. We did 3 sessions of this (once every 3-4 weeks), and it didn't seem like we were getting anywhere. Especially when he said Leo's allergic to every meat except for fish and lamb. The holistic vet told us this is a very rare circumstance where Leo has so many allergens, that it would be best to switch back to kibble since he is so limited on his protein sources. 

My girlfriend wanted to keep Leo on kibble the whole time, so I figured we could try this (also recommended by the holistic vet now) since we had nothing to lose. We have been feeding him Nature's Recipe Grain Free Salmon, Sweet Potato and Pumpkin. He has been doing well on it overall, no more hot spots on stomach, he has put on a little more weight and overall looks healthier than he did on the raw diet. Our dog trainer and friends have noticed how much better his coat looks. We just recently started adding tripe to his meals to help him gain weight. He's 71 lbs right now, and could easily put on another 8-10 lbs to be at a healthy weight. 

However he is still not 100%, since he still has a very dry nose (it feels like sand paper) the tips of his ears are still raw, he had a bad ear infection a couple months ago and he rubs his nose/head on the bed after every meal. I believe part of his nose issues may be from trying to break out of his crate every day when my girlfriend and I are at work. We had to put carabiners on all 4 corners of his crate, as well as both doors to prevent him from breaking out. He chewed through the dry wall and molding when we left him out around 8 months ago, so he won't have free roam again for a little while longer. 

We ordered Inflight Coat Formula per our breeders recommendation, since his coat is also very thin (it should be quite a bit thicker, especially with the cold winter we've been experiencing). Inflight Coat Formula, Finally a Coat Supplement that Works! 
We've been adding this for the past 2-3 weeks now, so are waiting to see if this helps. We have also been putting coconut oil on his nose and tips of his ears 1-2 times per day, for as long as I can remember. 

I hope everything clears up with your boy. I read through your whole thread, and believe I recall reading that you got some of your chicken from either Meijer or Walmart? If that's the case, then I would avoid that at all costs. I'd recommend looking into into a raw co-op, where the meat is purchased at bulk, is all natural and even cheaper than Meijer/Walmart. Meijer/Walmart injects their chicken breasts and other pieces with 'natural juices'. My dog would turn his nose to the Meijer chicken, but would eat the same cut of chicken from the co-op. The lady in my co-op delivers around 10,000 lbs. of meat a month throughout Michigan. There are many other raw co-ops out there, so one in your state should be very likely. 

I wish the raw diet would've worked for Leo, as I truly believe it is the best thing to feed a dog. I look forward to hearing your progress, and hope your dog gets better. It's unfortunate that most vets aren't more familiar with this, since it's obvious in your thread that more people than you and I are having a very similar problem.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Minoli made a couple references I was going to touch on.

1) Loose the Wal-Mart chicken/find a co-op ~ Thumbs - up!

2) Kinesiology or also known as muscle testing for sensitivities. Based on energy. My Holistic vet used this to test supplements she wanted G on, but before just giving them she did the test Minoli describes.

I had read about prior, but didn't really see or feel what she regarded as needed as my arm was out to my side, holding the bottle on my dogs shoulder, she would press down on my wrist with two fingers....I was to hold but not resist...my arm moved slightly...

Well, I questioned what if it was something he didn't need...she grabbed a bottle of heart meds., I extended my arm, she pressed down and my arm was a rubber band! I couldn't resist against the slight pressure. It's quite amazing. 

Can't wait till you get an appointment w/holistic vet. DO you call often to see if any cancellations that day? That's an option to get in sooner


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hey all,

Just updating on Panzer. I've since put him in a cone to prevent him from gnawing his skin. Since then he has been giving off an awful smell and his skin is protruding massive amounts of yellowish discharche/scabbing but the odd thing is it's where the skin is now healthy. I've continued giving him the ketachlor baths, Im doing them everyother day now, and will continue to do so as it seems to be helping. 

Why is this starting now? His skin is pretty much healed, and some hair regeneration has occurred but the yellow discharge is getting quite frequent (it's coming back almost every other day in between bathing!)

Is this good? I know you guys said its infection leaving the body but what does that mean? Does that mean he's had this infection on going and his body is finally expelling it from his system? Or does it mean this is a new infection???

I'm still waiting to get into the holistic vet, I'm on their cancellation call list.

Thanks all for the support and info!


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

sounds really miserable for your poor boy, have you tested his thyroid levels? can be done through your vet.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

No I haven't. Forgive my ignorance but is that a possible cause for this skin issue?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gibby913 said:


> No I haven't. Forgive my ignorance but is that a possible cause for this skin issue?


 Yes it could be. Think this is mentioned in the earlier posts. However at 2yrs. old I would hazard a guess that it would be autoimmune thyroiditis. Weak Thyroid issues are usually an aging issue - over 6yrs old I believe.

Kelp (iodine in), helps nourish the thyroid.
Ashwagandha is an herb that works on the adrenals, thyroid as well as immune system.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Its just that my Lola has thyroid issues and before treating her, she constantly had skin problems - itching, sores, weeping and her ears were always getting infected. It might be something to consider and if not thyroid, then this will be just one thing you can cross off your list of possible issues. If it is thyroid, then he will require Thyorixine (or something similar) for the rest of his life, but will fix the problem.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

If you are going to do a thyroid test then VERY specifically have the test done by Dr. Jean Dodd's. You may have to insist to your vet that THIS is what you want and who you want to do this test. You may have to submit yourself, your vet would draw blood.

Hemopet Hemolife Thyroid Testing

Idexx labs and most vets only test the T4 levels and if fall within range, then it is scratched off the list...but there is a gray area that basically indicates borderline and that is when you want to prevent...(hence kelp, Ashwagandha)...Idexx also has a base line normal ~ a one size fits all, Hemopet takes into consideration, breed, age, sex, altered.


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Gibby:

If I understand your post Panzer has healed(better skin) and now the fresh skin is crusting with the yellow sap stuff- Questions:

When you say "healed" do you mean the redness and inflammation is no longer present?

Or do you mean it is back to a healthy pink with new hair?

In my experience with Dante: 

If you mean that the skin is no longer red and inflamed then the next step is the gray/black will crust with the yellow sap stuff.

If you mean that his skin has returned to a healthy pink with new hair, and he is now crusting with yellow sap stuff I would re evaluate what you have fed him and see if something new has been added recently.
Allergy shot?
Vaccines?
Laying out side in the grass?

I am vey sorry to hear you are having more set backs. 

I know with Dante the bathing so frequently sorta promoted the sap. I would keep him in cotton and brush(carefully) the flakes away.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

He did recently have his allergy shot.......But I also increased the amount of Ketachlor bathing......His skin btw has returned to a normal pink color for the most part, and hair is beginning to grow back in many areas. There are still some black areas around the crease of his hind legs. 

The yellow sapping has slowed now, but is still present. I've had to stop the bathing for a week now due to the cold weather here ( afraid he'll become ill - its only 55 degrees in my home and im not getting any more oil since its so late in season)

I feel like I'm failing him here. I'm going to get his thyroid tested as soon as budget permits. My wife is beyond discouraged. She feels him going on like this is torture. She thinks its time to put him down but I'm simply not ready to give up on him yet.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

what is his deameanor? is he still itching like mad?


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

It took my non-GSD male dog one year of terrible skin, stuff oozing out, hot spots, plugged anal glands, some restless nights, chewing himself raw, low energy (just sleeps and drags his feet on walks), picky eating habits before he was more normal. Few years later he is all good and now he eats like a pig if allowed. I made drastic changes and persisted with it and I believe that gave his body time to heal the way it should, inside out. 

I don't know what your dog's problem is but what I did was stop all the vet visits for his allergy (no more medication, shots, it was a firm decision even though sometimes i did have doubts and wondered if I was doing it right) and used everything that is natural (not processed stuff labeled natural but stuff that is in its own natural state) I can get my hands on to treat the symptoms and fed home cooked meal (no additives, 100% quality natural stuff) according to what he's willing to take in (he refused meat for a long time and would starve himself if I will only feed him meat). It took a lot of time - did lots of research and trying to keep his skin as cleaned up as possible and taking extreme precaution to avoid anything that will cause a flare up - and telling him to stop chewing himself (surprisingly he will listen) and drying all moist spots ASAP. It was a hard year and I was so glad when he finally visibly improved a year later. It took few more years of on and off set backs but never as bad as it originally was and I was much more relaxed about it then. Now he is pretty normal, I don't pay much attention to his long coats anymore and let him get as dirty as he wants, let him itch himself when he wants, and he thrives. Once he's healthy I discovered a fiesty annoying side to him that I never seen before. 

I was looking for a solution where he does not need to depend on temporary unnatural medication for the rest of his life that can only make him even more dependent with each use. I have very limited knowledge and resources (I bought a lot of stuff but all together cannnot be more expensive than a couple vet visits) but believed I was going in the right direction that put my dog on the right track. Many ways to get there via the natural route, mine took a year plus some for a first timer learning it. 

I encourage you to do your own research and do lots of it. It will take a lot of time, no short cuts unfortunately. Question every thing you're told. Then you just might be rewarded with a permanent solution!


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Gibby:

I think you are expecting too much a bit too quickly.

I know that Panzers skin has "pinked" and is growing new hair by what you are saying. And this alone should make you be jumping for joy. Because by all rites the vet's I spoke with said that once the "black" skin has appeared that it normally do not get "pink" again.

But if he still has black in his "pits" then he is still 'cleaning out' his system. 

IMO I think the bathing is not helping at this point. This is just my experience, so please make up your own mind with your current experience and research. 
But for us the moisture was promoting the sap condition. Like getting a scab wet, would just injure the new skin growing and promote scars.

We used wipes (from the vet) to 'rinse' his coat and paws off when he was out doors. 
I kept Dante in cotton (shirts and socks): either covered in bag balm to soothe the red inflamed skin(and to keep from licking it before the posture collar); or dry to keep the sap from crusting in his fur. 

And we lived in a Victorian/Elizabethan collar so he could not reach himself to irritate the skin.

Please do not give up: Look at the progress you have gotten to already.
I know it seems like it may not be as dramatic as you want it to be, but the skin color alone is a HUGE improvement. 

It is showing you he is really healing.

And in my opinion stop the allergy shots. This is the second post you have mentioned that Panzer got a shot and now is having a "Set back."


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hey all, 

As an update, his hair growth has stopped and he just began thinning his hair all over. He has a cone on now so he's stopped chewing. I'm still giving him baths since if i don't he will literally smell up the entire house, however he does seem to temporarily feel better after he receives a bath. 

I think I am going to stop giving him those shots, and I'm going to order some Seavive ASAP. I can't find the powder version whiich is why I havn't ordered it yet. In stead I'm going to simply order the capsules and break them open to put in his food. 

I'm not expecting too much too soon it's just the improvements seem to be intermitting. I expect this to be a long road to recovery but it's seems every step forward we make he seems to fall two more steps behind. I'm hoping that Seavive will give his immune system the needed extra kick to get him to at least feel a bit better.

I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for the support all! It means alot to us.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Traveler had thinning all over and was itchy with big dandruff flakes. And he smelled. The doggie dermatologist said he had a staph infection and we received an antibiotic and a new med called Apoquel. Just came out this year. There are shortages but if you can get it, it stopped the itching within hours. I understand you what to go holistic and so did I but eventually I realized the bag balm and CO and ACV and all that was not working for us. I am supplementing him with pre and probiotics and some immune support tinctures. The Apoquel at least made him stop itching and gave us and him some breathing space.


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## Shadow pup (May 15, 2014)

I have a six year old his name is Shadow. He has a low thyroid so he is on medication. He always liking himself on his back paws until they are raw. He also pulled his hair out around his private area. He also always scratching and at times his ears are bothering him.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Shadow pup said:


> I have a six year old his name is Shadow. He has a low thyroid so he is on medication. He always liking himself on his back paws until they are raw. He also pulled his hair out around his private area. He also always scratching and at times his ears are bothering him.


 Shadow pup, welcome to the forum. You may want to start your own thread on the subject, however if you read through this one, you may find a lot of suggestions.
1 - diet change - no carbs, RAW is the only way to do this
2 - look into "Armour" it is a scripted thyroid med but is made from "dissicated thyroid" and works on the T3 and T4, synthetics are only T4


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

Gibby:

I am so thankful that you are working so hard to help improve your baby's life. I know how frustrating it is to see improvements then have a "Set back" or three.

If he stinks it is yeast coming out of his system. 
Which the yeast feeds the other bacteria's and is a vicious circle.
Coconut oil and apple cider vinegar are your best friends right now.

Just remember that the yeast starts on the inside and has accumulated over time, so it will take a longer time to get it out. Be vigilant and positive and it will all work itself out of his system. 

And if the red irritated skin is all gone, he is definitely healing. Albeit slow.

And recall Dante lost almost ALL of his coat as he was healing. Mass shed with straggly short coat and no hair on his 'mane/shoulders', tummy and pits. I was terrified his mane would never return.


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## gibby913 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hey all! 

We have yet again reached a setback but this time it was due to my sheer stupidity. In an attempt to get rid of Ketachlor as I've been told it's fairly toxic, I tried to switch to a Neem Oil shampoo and Purchased "Tropiclean" 

In my oversight, I missed a vital ingredient listing which would have steered me clear away from it......Oatmeal. As sure as the sun does shine, after two applicatons, the yeast returned with a vengeance. The unmistakable scent returned strongly as well and he's began itching again as well. I investigated the cause, in which only two changes were made. The introduction of Seavive into his diet, and the change of shampoo's. As stated above when I read the back of the shampoo bottle I realized my horrible mistake. For the meantime I will be switching back to Ketachlor until I find a suitable replacement. I'll keep you all posted.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Traveler's doggie dermo has me bathing Traveler with Douxo chlorhexidine PS shampoo and follow up with Ketachlor. What is it in Ketachlor that is "fairly toxic"? ???

As mentioned in a post early on, Selsum Blue worked well for us. I can't really say either one works better than the other so I'll probably go back to the Selsum or Zymox since I have both on hand.
Lynn & Traveler


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Nyx said:


> Gibby:
> 
> I am so thankful that you are working so hard to help improve your baby's life. I know how frustrating it is to see improvements then have a "Set back" or three.
> 
> ...


 I agree. Stinky skin is usually yeasty. Get some organic AVC with MOTHER, you can add about a teaspoon to meals (you can add it to water as well, if they won't eat it, but my dog gobbles up her food with it on). You can also do ACV rinses, I think one cup per gallon of water.

Good luck, my dog is horribly ithy from summer allergies, and I have to keep her on Reactine in warmer months


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

if all else has failed, seek out gator bytes, she has some all natural ideas that will help.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Hi gibby913,

I've read the whole thread and am very sorry to hear about your Panzer's ongoing ordeal. A couple points: A single cortizone shot would shut down ALL itching IF it was due to an allergic reaction of any kind, for a couple days. If ALL itching had ceased, you'd know you're dealing w an allergy (food or environmental).

I think you mentioned earlier that Panzer had been given some cortizone shots back in the beginning of all this and your vet called a halt (which was wise). If all itching doesn't cease completely, its not an allergy. From your descriptions I think Panzer may have sarcoptic mites. They are notoriously hard to capture in skin scrapings for positive diagnosis. In fact, protocol is to treat for mites where symptoms are present even if not found in a scraping. Panzer's immune system is definitely under siege from what you've described, thus compromised and the mites flourish.

A course of Ivermectin will clear the mites. There are 2 protocols. One is a weekly injection for 6 weeks. The other is oral dosage daily for 6 weeks. Oral dosage is a bit more expensive but also more effective, especially for stubborn, deep infections which it sounds like Panzer is suffering. Be advised, the itching will worsen after the first couple days on the Ivermectin as the mites start scurrying around deep in his tissue trying to escape the Ivermectin but thereafter, relief from the itching grows steadily and then it is OVER.

From your description he also has a nasty bacterial infection, secondary to the mites due to scratching/chewing (yellow pus/odor). Hopefully he can still respond to a course of antibiotic for skin infection.

Also sounds like his skin is pretty ravaged. I'd knock off all the vinegar and coconut oil, etc., etc. home remedy stuff. Its not working and may be worsening his ravaged skin. 

I went through this with Hansi for months, vets hopelessly perplexed, food/environmental allergies suspected, allergy tests, prescription shampoos, a dozen scrapings for mites (never showed up under scope), hypoallergenic prescription dog food which he hated and barely ate, etc., etc., etc. Poor dog miserable and suffering, me becoming ever more frantic over how to cure.

Six weeks after Ivermectin protocol, problem completely eliminated. We've never looked back. Don't forget, protocol is to treat for mites even where symptoms present despite lack of positive proof under scope. If it isn't mites, the Ivermectin protocol won't hurt him. (Some breeds, mostly Collies have a genetic problem w Ivermectin which makes it poisonous for them but if you have been giving Heartguard, Panzer doesn't have a genetic problem w/it.)

I feel for you. It was an agonizing ordeal for Hansi before treatment and a terrible one for me too. Also, remember Occam's razor: the simplest explanation, all things being equal, tends to be the correct one. Don't get too far down the rabbit hole of exotic diseases until the mundane has been eliminated. Best wishes!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

good advice viking
the ivermectin cannot hurt altho i am sure some may think otherwise
and just may cure things


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

my boy diesel,

Why, thank you! 

As for big, successful companies, one small voiced reminder . . . they don't profit by killing their customers! 

And no, I don't work for any or have any monetary interest either.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Viking, I don't think you "read" through the whole thread. 




gibby913 said:


> I've decided to go the holistic method with the RAW diet because *conventional methods have outright FAILED*. My *conventional vet recognizes this and refuses to provide anymore medication whether it be steroid or anti-biotic*. They informed me it will only mask the issues and will not correct it which is clear since he's *been dosed with both almost ten times at this point.*
> 
> The Allergy shots are custom tailored shots that contain small dosages of his allergens which he receives on a monthly basis to help his immune system build a tolerance to his environmental allergies. I have decided to continue with these shots because they are for environmental allergies only, not for food allergies (because the vet says they do not help with food allergies since they are consumed....).
> 
> ...





viking said:


> Hi gibby913,
> 
> I've read the whole thread and am very sorry to hear about your Panzer's ongoing ordeal. A couple points: A single cortizone shot would shut down ALL itching IF it was due to an allergic reaction of any kind, for a couple days. If ALL itching had ceased, you'd know you're dealing w an allergy (food or environmental).
> 
> ...





my boy diesel said:


> good advice viking
> the *ivermectin cannot hurt* altho i am sure some may think otherwise
> and just may cure things


 my boy diesel ~ Ivermectin is a pesticide. SO yes it can hurt. and if it can cause death in MDR1 dogs it certainly can cause toxicity in the tissues, organs and blood that circulates throughout the whole body. That's all.


Viking - IF Panzer has been taking ivermectin, then he wouldn't have sarcoptic mange.

Futher, the dog has had 10 courses of steroids and/or antibiotics, has been allergy tested....Yeast infection confirmed and is getting allergy shots.

Now if you factor the abx., steroids suppressing the immune system, you add vaccines on top of this - the dog is 2 and has been going on since a puppy, who at a formidable time of growth and development of immune system has been besieged by toxins, you can bet this was a detriment to his health.

This takes time to heal. Not just the skin here that is an issue. The endocrine system, thyroid - hormones, liver (detox die-off and chemicals). The Thymus gland is responsible for regulating IgG, IgA, IgE in allergic responses.

The RAW diet is the only way to provide essential nutrients in most bio-available form...B vitamins (B3 is indicated for bacterial infections and is being studied for MRSA - a deadly bacteria that abx. is failing and was the cause of) - abundant in eggs, B12 in beef heart. Zinc - organ meats especially baby calves liver, essential for skin and coat health and immune system, "Copper" (in balance with zinc) - Copper surfaces have been tested in hospitals - bacteria cannot live on these surfaces.

Now if irreversible damage has been done to the immune system (auto-immune), then possible that Panzer is suffering from DEMODEX mites (which live harmoniously on a balanced dog) and having an allergic reaction to his own mites - it is at this time that demodex can cause itching, unlike the "puppy" mange dogs go through after vaccination (poor diet and flea/tick crap).

Garlic is an excellent detoxifier and kills mange
Kelp for the thyroid
CO for the yeast
RAW for ALL it's benefits (especially glutathione, amino acid - the most important detoxifier in the body)
Probiotic to restore the bacteria that was killed of by all the various rounds of abx. allowing yeast to proliferate, thus leading to a systemic yeast condition and an immune compromised host that was not able to restore balance due to steroid use.

Milk Thistle is very important to regenerate the cells in the liver - stronger liver helps prevent toxins from seeping back into the body. Supports stronger immune system


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Now if you factor the abx., steroids suppressing the immune system, you add vaccines on top of this - the dog is 2 and has been going on since a puppy, who at a *formidable* time of growth and development of immune system has been besieged by toxins, you can bet this was a detriment to his health.


 Oops. Meant to say "formative"...lol


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## Nyx (Sep 25, 2012)

viking said:


> my boy diesel,
> 
> Why, thank you!
> 
> ...


 AND they also do not profit by *CURING* their customers either.

I value the education that Vets are required to learn to practice. 
I value the opinion of *MY CUURENT Vet*, but it took me* YEARS* to find her and *I STILL HAD TO PROVE that RAW* worked.*If she had not physically seen it with her own eyes she would not believe it. And that is a quote from her own mouth.*

I physically had to show her, by appointments that Dante no longer needed to ensure he was being treated safely. And we did monthly weight checks, and we still do the weight checks just to socialize and make sure his needs haven't changed.

But to have a Vet tell me she absolutely can not believe that just a change in diet can be so successful is astounding and she is re thinking her stance on dietary needs and maintaining health.

The only health issues my Dante has now are ear infections from prolonged water exposure if he does not get a good ear rinse afterwards. 

He was on steroids, Anbx(several different kind), Prescription foods, Presc, shampoos, wipes and sprays. If the vet could write the script we were on it. My vet even stopped the Steroids because she recognized they were not working and that they could in deed harm his organs. 

I absolutely understand that there are different causes for some of these symptoms in other animals. And I always want the owner to consult a trusted vet, and to get several second opinions if they are not comfortable with or agree with the primary findings and /or treatments.

To imply that pharmaceutical companies are solely about the cure, is unrealistic. They profit solely by their customers suffering. If a true cure were to be found they would make no money. So the more you are "incurable" and use their supplies to treat your secondary symptoms, instead of the root cause, the more money they make.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Nyx said:


> AND they also do not profit by *CURING* their customers either.
> 
> 
> To imply that pharmaceutical companies are solely about the cure, is unrealistic. They profit solely by their customers suffering. If a true cure were to be found they would make no money. So the more you are "incurable" and use their supplies to treat your secondary symptoms, instead of the root cause, the more money they make.


Indeed! Well said. 

Also note that it is Big Pharma that funds vet schools, and finesse's vets with discounts, trips, bonuses - payola.

6 Billion dollars raised for (human) breast cancer awareness in 2013 - Pink ribbon help find a cure campaign...Bull


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Actually, I did read the whole thread. 

Not sure why some here seem so defensive. I sure wasn't trying to pick a fight with anyone, though in restrospect I should've kept the quip about successful companies to myself. In any event, I hope Panzer gets better.


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## Dave (Nov 28, 2010)

gibby913 said:


> Hey all!
> 
> We have yet again reached a setback but this time it was due to my sheer stupidity. In an attempt to get rid of Ketachlor as I've been told it's fairly toxic, I tried to switch to a Neem Oil shampoo and Purchased "Tropiclean"
> 
> In my oversight, I missed a vital ingredient listing which would have steered me clear away from it......Oatmeal. As sure as the sun does shine, after two applicatons, the yeast returned with a vengeance. The unmistakable scent returned strongly as well and he's began itching again as well. I investigated the cause, in which only two changes were made. The introduction of Seavive into his diet, and the change of shampoo's. As stated above when I read the back of the shampoo bottle I realized my horrible mistake. For the meantime I will be switching back to Ketachlor until I find a suitable replacement. I'll keep you all posted.


Hey Gibby,
It's been a while. Was just wondering how Panzer is feeling?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Been wondering too


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

It's been awhile since we have had any updates.

:hug:


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