# Agility - Rear Cross - What's wrong with this training video?



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Just was looking for a good video to show a rear cross and found this on youtube. At least from the way I was taught, there is something very 'wrong' with this instructional video, but I see it at trials along with confused dogs and alot of back spinning.

Ok people, watch the video and figure out what I'm seeing 'wrong': :wub:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I would think you'd want to signal with the right hand to go over the jump, indicating to the dog to cross in front of the body. 

The handler then needs to turn left and stay with the dog on the right side, picking up "control" with the right hand. The handler shouldn't have to take any steps backward and should not be turning to face the dog after the jump.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Where is the turn on the course? Where do we put in a cross? Do fronts/rears go in the same position?

What's the difference between cross on the takeoff and cross on the landing side of a jump?

When and how do you cue a rear cross?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Where is the turn on the course? Where do we put in a cross? Do fronts/rears go in the same position?
> 
> What's the difference between cross on the takeoff and cross on the landing side of a jump?
> 
> When and how do you cue a rear cross?



Cross before the jump with the dog going over the jump in front of the handler = rear cross

In a front cross, the way I was taught, you almost stand in front of the dog on landing (after the jump) and switch the side toward the dog, so the handler does take a couple of backwards steps to get into position and flip sides.

I cue a rear cross with a verbal command and a hand motion--if I signal a jump with the hand near the jump but away from the dog, I am indicating to cross in front of me and go over the jump. I use "Away" and "Bye" as my verbals to indicate which way to turn over the jump--picking up from my herding experience. So Away means a signal with my right hand and the dog should go over the jump and turn counterclockwise; Bye is a signal with my left hand and means to jump and turn clockwise.

Are you asking Socratic questions?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The set up to the jumps is terrible. I would have been on the left side of the tire to start.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> The set up to the jumps is terrible. I would have been on the left side of the tire to start.


I both agree and disagree. Clearly a post turn is the most useful thing here, but apparently the point of their exercise is to practice rear crosses.

I think the "problem" with the video is that the instructor should get rid of the broad jump and tire, and force the students to practice one jump drills. Clearly ALL of those students are having serious issues with the cross.



First lady: sloppy rear cross on the flat followed by a sloppy front cross during the reward- _what!?_
Second lady: ok for a very green dog. Clearly the dog was not committed to the jump prior to signaling the cross- but we all start somewhere. The real problem with this lady is that she seems to have forgotten that she has a right hand and that it plays an important role on a cross- _what!?_
Third lady: Also rear crossed on the flat (probably not the best way to train a rear cross to very green dogs). Her dog clearly doesn't understand a cross since when the lady cut in on its line, it turned the wrong direction to look at her. Green dog- forgivable. But running with that ridiculous bag of treats is less forgivable. Buy a pouch lady! Of course she also front crossed and rewarded the front cross.
Overall- the instructor is a big problem with this video since she is not setting up a clear, one jump, rear cross exercise for the students to learn on.

But the "hidden" problem with this clip- the broad jump is backwards. :laugh: [edit]- well, maybe those broad jump boards are flat. From this camera angle, they look like they might be angled towards the tire jump, when they should be angled the opposite direction- towards the entry side. But it might be camera angle- they could just be flat.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

(BTW, you guys are THINKING and I love that!)

Is it best to give information about a turn as early as possible to the dog?

Could the rear have been at a different location to give the information on same turn but earlier and clearer?

How about the difference between a cross on the 'landing' side of a jump vs 'takeoff'?

Why do you use a cross anyways?

Why not all fronts? Why not all rears?

Does it matter what lead your dog is on and what the heck is a lead anyways!!!!?????


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I am not sure what your going for here, but I'll play. Comments inline:



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Is it best to give information about a turn as early as possible to the dog?


Perhaps not in all situations. This video is of GREEN dogs. Had they indicated a cross as the green dog is jumping the tire, then they are likely to have tire issues. In my opinion, this entire setup is way too advanced for the level of dogs represented. A one-jump exercise is needed here to reinforce what a rear cross is. Sure- the more advanced you get, the more clear (and earlier) you will indicate the cross. But indicating early on a green dog is a good way to get a refusal on the _current_ obstacle.



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Could the rear have been at a different location to give the information on same turn but earlier and clearer?


Sure. But you initially posted about THIS video, and we have to assume the instructor in THIS video asked the students to cross after the tire. They certainly could have crossed before the tire and post-turned the bar jump. But for that matter, they could have run on the inside and not crossed at all. So I am not sure what you are asking for this situation...



MaggieRoseLee said:


> How about the difference between a cross on the 'landing' side of a jump vs 'takeoff'?


What about it? The first and third lady rear crossed on the flat. The second lady rear crossed at the take off (because she had a green, uncommitted dog). You can cross wherever you see fit... Not sure what you are going for here.




MaggieRoseLee said:


> Why do you use a cross anyways?


For one and only one reason- to turn. (Unless you wanna start talking about those UGLY blind crosses that some people do simply so they can get to the opposite side of the dog. Ewww... no thanks.)



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Why not all fronts? Why not all rears?


Because the instructor told them to? Again- not sure where you are going with this in regards to the video you posted.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ok- the more I think about this... I think I see where you are going. *A cross means turn.* If you execute the cross on the flat after the tire, then your kinda late in the turn. You really should already be turning at that point. If this sequence was a subsection of a longer sequence, I'd rear cross the front of the tire in order to indicate that I am turning after the tire.

So I think what you are going for here is that you cross to indicate a turn. You don't cross _while_ you are turning- that's a bit too late.

The problem with the video (if I've figured out what you are asking) is that the instructor is having them cross at an unrealistic (probably improper) place for this sequence.

Rear cross before an obstacle that precedes a turn- front cross after the obstacle that precedes the turn. But your cross always happens before the turn (since the cross itself is indicating the turn).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

In my opinion, if the back cross is what she was trying to teach, then the person should have started on the left side of the tire and crossed after the dog took the jump. There is no purpose to the set up they have. If the next obstacle was straight off the jump or turning to the left of the jump they should have been on the left side. If the next obstacle was to the right of the jump then the back cross should happen after the dog took the jump with the handler starting on the left side of the tire. I always look for the straightest, shortest handling path so to start on the right of the tire, back cross for the jump just seems silly to me.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

*Is it best to give information about a turn as early as possible to the dog?*
Yes and no. Cue a dog too early, you've got a refusal, cue too late, you've got a knocked bar. With these people, not a single one really gave a good cue to the dog to go over the jump after the tire. Maybe with their voice they did, but not with their bodies. They stepped too far in and then they stopped themselves...and so the dog refused the jump, or took the jump too slowly.

*Could the rear have been at a different location to give the information on same turn but earlier and clearer?*
In this exercise there is no real need for a rear cross at all (which annoys me because I think it makes it harder for the students to understand). That said, I would have started my students on the other side of the broad jump and tire to basically FORCE a real rear cross. Keep them to the left, have them signal with the left hand "Jump, tire, come hup". The handler can then basically keep themselves going in a straight line as the dog goes over.

*How about the difference between a cross on the 'landing' side of a jump vs 'takeoff'?*
I hate crosses on the landing side, and I don't think I've ever found myself in that position....I'll have to go back at my videos and look.

*Why do you use a cross anyways?*
Change the path and lead of the dog, or to add "push" (if we're strictly talking about rear crosses)

*Why not all fronts? Why not all rears?*
If I did all front crosses, I wouldn't be running in agility anymore. I cannot get where I need to be in time to do a front cross. My dog also finds them to be frustrating and as a "challenge". I use rear crosses most often, because I can "push" my dog on by being behind him, however, all rears is silly because I can lose a lot of time that way, or turn my dog in a direction I really didn't want him to go.

I use both front and rear crosses, but if I have a choice between the two, I'll generally take the rear cross.

*Does it matter what lead your dog is on and what the heck is a lead anyways!!!!?????
*I understand what a lead is, but not how to explain it. I will say that the lead the dog is on is very important for turns. If my dog is on his left lead and I want him to turn right, what I end up with is a dog that has crashed.

I've noticed that my dog is more comfortable leading left when approaching contacts, and will switch leads if he's on a right lead when he's about to hit one.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Me too Jackie! I'm not fast enough to do front crosses with Jax unless I have a really good lead out, which we're working to increase so we can comfortably do a jumpers course without her leaving me way behind.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I finally stood up for myself and told an instructor NO on front crosses because the last time I did as I was told, I nearly ended up with a shattered knee cap.

Sent Strauss into a tunnel, and was supposed to do a front cross there.....I told the instructor beforehand that I was NOT going to get there in time...she didn't believe me. So, I tried it, and Strauss came hurtling out at Mach 7 and hit me right in the knee with his head.

I dropped like a sack of hammers.

I now only do front crosses at contacts or weaves....any other front crosses you see me do are not intentional, that's just how it worked out on the course and I got lucky. For me, it's not just a matter of how to best handle my dog on a course, but how to handle safely for myself.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

So MRL... did any of us get it?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> Ok- the more I think about this... I think I see where you are going. *A cross means turn.* If you execute the cross on the flat after the tire, then your kinda late in the turn. You really should already be turning at that point. If this sequence was a subsection of a longer sequence, I'd rear cross the front of the tire in order to indicate that I am turning after the tire.
> 
> So I think what you are going for here is that you cross to indicate a turn. You don't cross _while_ you are turning- that's a bit too late.
> 
> ...


WINNER!!! :thumbup: :wild:


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Xeph said:


> *Does it matter what lead your dog is on and what the heck is a lead anyways!!!!?????*
> 
> I understand what a lead is, but not how to explain it. I will say that the lead the dog is on is very important for turns. If my dog is on his left lead and I want him to turn right, what I end up with is a dog that has crashed.


That's perfectly said and EXACTLY why our dogs leads DO matter. Crash and burn, knocked bars, and dogs spinning are many times caused by our dogs being on the wrong lead. :wub:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

She's not sending the dog. She's too close. She's giving NO signal with her right hand that the dog should be following her there. 

Just starting agility so that's all I really know. 

Haha, dangit, should have read the whole thread!


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