# For a matter of preservation for future generations, the SV should keep a seed bank



## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

I know the SV only acknowledges natural breedings but in the interest of preservation they should open up a cryogenics lab/sperm bank to ensure that the genetics of today's dogs are secure and available to future generations should the need arise


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You don't need a special cryogenics lab to store sperm, you can do it at many local vet offices. My local repro vet charges $400 for the initial collection, analysis, freeze/thaw test, one collection (however many draws that gets) with one year of storage. Then I think it's $95/year after that for the frozen storage.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I wonder if the gene pool would actually shrink more if this was done. 



> in the interest of preservation they should open up a cryogenics lab/sperm bank to ensure that the genetics of today's dogs are secure and available to future generations should the need arise


See it costs money so would people do it to save the genetics for a rainy day or would they start to use it straight away to save on costs and so the stud dogs wouldn't need to exist anymore or be trained to a competent level.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

MadLab said:


> I wonder if the gene pool would actually shrink more if this was done.
> 
> 
> 
> See it costs money so would people do it to save the genetics for a rainy day or would they start to use it straight away to save on costs and so the stud dogs wouldn't need to exist anymore or be trained to a competent level.



Sorry, I don't understand this. Just because it's frozen does not mean that people won't care about the dog behind it. The dogs will still need to be titled. 

I have seen frozen sperm used for many cases, once to get to a dog that had been passed for a long time. It was cool. But it's often used because flying a dog to breed is expensive. Shipping Sperm is cheaper. But most people just go with fresh chilled.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Sorry, I don't understand this. Just because it's frozen does not mean that people won't care about the dog behind it. The dogs will still need to be titled.


My point is, you title the dog and save a load of his semen, and then rely on that to inseminate the bitches, and no need to title future stud dogs as the sperm is in the fridge.

Do you understand my point now.

Do you think it is a good thing or would actually shrink pool in the long run.

I wonder why the SV doesn't do it.

Seems like a hard market to regulate. But it is done for cattle and race horses but they are worth a lot more than dogs and so the cost would be justified.

The KC would love it though. Look at Bulldog. They need to be artificially inseminated in many cases.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know that it really matters how tightly it's regulated. It is expensive, not so much for the collection and freezing, but if you have a really nice bitch then you're buying and shipping frozen semen and paying for the implantation, and then you have a significantly lower chance of it even "taking" and getting far less puppies to choose from and if you are not breeding every heat cycle, you're making some important choices about which studs or semen to use. Many people won't do it even here where it is allowed.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Ah, so why title new dogs when you have a dog frozen? That's titled, gotcha. 

But no. I don't see that as a concern. You still need genetic diversity. And using frozen semen is very expensive as well. Often requires a surgical implantation of the bitch. 

This has been done for years and years. It's not a new or scary concept. 

Thoroughbreds are not allowed to use frozen semen. Must be live cover. 

SV probably has a similar mindset to the Jockey Club.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The logic that people won't use live cover doesn't makes sense to me. Each new breeding brings a new set of genetics.

Falk to Mika to Iron to my dog. Falk breeding alone would never have created my dog. Nor would it have created Iron.

I think, except in special circumstances, people want to breed to the dog in front of them. Bringing in old blood isn't a bad thing but like gsdsar said, It's expensive and you may get a full litter, you may get 2. I believe the integrity of the sperm degrades with time? My breeder bred a female to Dante Traho with 12 year old sperm. The first breeding to the first female didn't take. The second breeding to a different female produced 3. But it brought some superior bloodlines back into the current gene pool


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Liesje said:


> You don't need a special cryogenics lab to store sperm, you can do it at many local vet offices. My local repro vet charges $400 for the initial collection, analysis, freeze/thaw test, one collection (however many draws that gets) with one year of storage. Then I think it's $95/year after that for the frozen storage.


I know that but what I mean is there should be an official sperm bank for the dogs of today . . for today's examples of the breed to be available for future reference 

For example . . imagine if Secreteriat's sperm was still available


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DNA is what makes it official. I believe in the US, to register litters bred with AI, you have to have DNA on file. A central "bank" wouldn't work because the frozen semen is the property of whoever is paying for it to be collected and stored, usually the stud owner but sometimes not. I've personally sold one collection of frozen semen to another breeder because I do not breed myself, and I had to have my AKC DNA paperwork (among other stuff) when the repro vet did the collection and let me sign it over to the breeder.


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Liesje said:


> DNA is what makes it official. I believe in the US, to register litters bred with AI, you have to have DNA on file. A central "bank" wouldn't work because the frozen semen is the property of whoever is paying for it to be collected and stored, usually the stud owner but sometimes not. I've personally sold one collection of frozen semen to another breeder because I do not breed myself, and I had to have my AKC DNA paperwork (among other stuff) when the repro vet did the collection and let me sign it over to the breeder.


I'd imagine such a centralized bank would be tasked with keeping up with that paperwork upon collection. This is entirely conceptual so any existing standards wouldn't apply . . unless there already is a bank specifically dedicated to German Shepherds

This would mostly be for the long-term though, so generations from we can refresh whatever the gene pool is in 2040 with some of the DNA we have from today's breeding stock


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the best way to protect the breed so that it has a future in 2040 is to do the best balanced breeding today with today's genetics . Shift happens . Good and bad . 
If you had collected a male in 2000 and used the sperm 35 years later , so many generations would have accumulated , many with drifts towards one trend or another , many with already heavily line bred pedigrees , then those saved year 2000 genes would be a spit in a big pool . How much if any influence would there be ? Would the genetics in the saved sperm , which were compatible and useful in females of the same era be compatible with how the breed continued in its evolution or devolution.

In any case I sure would not trust the SV to choose the dogs which are to be preserved for posterity .


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Blondi's Revenge said:


> I'd imagine such a centralized bank would be tasked with keeping up with that paperwork upon collection. This is entirely conceptual so any existing standards wouldn't apply . . unless there already is a bank specifically dedicated to German Shepherds
> 
> This would mostly be for the long-term though, so generations from we can refresh whatever the gene pool is in 2040 with some of the DNA we have from today's breeding stock


I guess I'm trying to understand how this would be any different or more useful than what we already do? Aside from however we feel about actually using frozen semen, there are already frozen banks and you are required to have the correct paperwork to have semen stored, used, or shipped (at least the one I use does). My repro vet requires that my dog have DNA on file and all the appropriate paperwork. I have a huge binder for my dog, anytime we do anything there is lots of paper work (for SV style shows I must present registration papers, certified pedigree, scorebook, tattoo verification form; for a breed survey I need all of that an then additional papers for hip and elbow certifications, show card, and club registration). It's no more or less work for me, I already have a mountain of paperwork for a single breeding dog. I would be reluctant to pay a central "bank" for this service when my local repro vet already does the collection and storage and is 20 minutes away.

Whether or not frozen semen is valuable is debatable, and I agree with the points brought up by all the previous posters in this thread. I've sold one collection (4 vials) of frozen semen to a breeder that has attempted to use my dog in the past. I believe she bought frozen simply so that she has it on hand to do the breedings that were previously desired/attempted but distance, work, and other circumstance get in the way. It's more of a convenience thing than someone wanting to hold on to my dog's semen for 30+ years and then use it. It may get used while he is still alive and his quality is still good, but now she has it on hand and we don't have to arrange for a live breeding or shipping chilled semen. The last few breedings I've followed where frozen semen was used and the stud dog already passed did not take. The expense for the breeder and then the lower likelihood of pregnancy is enough to turn off a lot of breeders regardless of whether it proves to be valuable to bring older genes forward.


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Liesje said:


> I guess I'm trying to understand *how this would be any different or more useful than what we already do*? Aside from however we feel about actually using frozen semen, there are already frozen banks and you are required to have the correct paperwork to have semen stored, used, or shipped (at least the one I use does). My repro vet requires that my dog have DNA on file and all the appropriate paperwork. I have a huge binder for my dog, anytime we do anything there is lots of paper work (for SV style shows I must present registration papers, certified pedigree, scorebook, tattoo verification form; for a breed survey I need all of that an then additional papers for hip and elbow certifications, show card, and club registration). It's no more or less work for me, I already have a mountain of paperwork for a single breeding dog. I would be reluctant to pay a central "bank" for this service when my local repro vet already does the collection and storage and is 20 minutes away.
> 
> Whether or not frozen semen is valuable is debatable, and I agree with the points brought up by all the previous posters in this thread. I've sold one collection (4 vials) of frozen semen to a breeder that has attempted to use my dog in the past. I believe she bought frozen simply so that she has it on hand to do the breedings that were previously desired/attempted but distance, work, and other circumstance get in the way. It's more of a convenience thing than someone wanting to hold on to my dog's semen for 30+ years and then use it. It may get used while he is still alive and his quality is still good, but now she has it on hand and we don't have to arrange for a live breeding or shipping chilled semen. The last few breedings I've followed where frozen semen was used and the stud dog already passed did not take. The expense for the breeder and then the lower likelihood of pregnancy is enough to turn off a lot of breeders regardless of whether it proves to be valuable to bring older genes forward.


It would be a centralized, one-stop source overseen by the SV

Your local vet isn't going to be able to keep such an extensive catalog and their priorities aren't going to be the same as an SV seed bank would . . which would be a matter of preservation rather than holding sperm for an immediate need


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Why would I want the SV to have control over who gets my dogs sperm? It's not their job. It mine.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would not want any governing body having possession and ownership of my dog's sperm, BUT we have bloodlines that are disappearing or becoming difficult to find. We are losing balance in the breed. Would have been nice to have the sperm of those dogs. Totally moot, though..........


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

losing balance in the breed because the way the breeders are managing their programs to cater to the sport or show clientele, or because of bottlenecking, or because of the lack of old lines available that are still sought after?


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

lhczth said:


> I would not want any governing body having possession and ownership of my dog's sperm, BUT we have bloodlines that are disappearing or becoming difficult to find. We are losing balance in the breed. Would have been nice to have the sperm of those dogs. Totally moot, though..........


Imagine the possibility presented to today's gene pool if breeding stock from 1920 was preserved


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Why would I want the SV to have control over who gets my dogs sperm? It's not their job. It mine.


I guess you wouldn't be forced to submit your dog's sperm but if you were interested in preserving the genetics it would be a good idea. Perhaps there could be a program for those who would like to maintain control of their dog's sperm and another program for those who are just submitting it to a seed bank for a matter of preservation


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

onyx'girl said:


> losing balance in the breed because the way the breeders are managing their programs to cater to the sport or show clientele, or because of bottlenecking, or because of the lack of old lines available that are still sought after?


Because breeders have specialized their programs (not just sport or show, but the 100% Czech, 100% DDR, police dogs, etc breeders) instead of breeding for balance, for a utilitarian working dogs. We have also almost entirely lost certain bloodlines especially sire lines that don't go through the old show dogs. There is more, but too late to go into it.


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

lhczth said:


> Because breeders have specialized their programs (not just sport or show, but the 100% Czech, 100% DDR, police dogs, etc breeders) instead of breeding for balance, for a utilitarian working dogs. *We have also almost entirely lost certain bloodlines* especially sire lines that don't go through the old show dogs. There is more, but too late to go into it.


Could you elaborate on this?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

This would present an interesting ethical dilemma and some difficult incentives. Given the cost, banking would naturally be done to preserve _valuable _dogs, right? (I mean popular, sought-after sires who would presumably become more valuable after they are dead and their sperm suddenly existed in very limited supply.)

We know some dogs get bred before issues like hemangio or spondylosis or even DM appear, much later in life. Would owners be obligated to report on these later-in-life health problems, if they banked sperm? Would SV be tasked with removing dogs from the "bank" based on health issues that manifested after the dog retired from breeding? Would you trust people to report accurately, and SV to act appropriately on that information, if the dogs were famous, fashionable, and valuable? Any thoughts?

(I have no idea what the answers are. I just pay attention to institutions and policy incentives, so problems like this are interesting to me.)


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Magwart said:


> This would present an interesting ethical dilemma and some difficult incentives. Given the cost, banking would naturally be done to preserve _valuable _dogs, right? (I mean popular, sought-after sires who would presumably become more valuable after they are dead and their sperm suddenly existed in very limited supply.)
> 
> We know some dogs get bred before issues like hemangio or spondylosis or even DM appear, much later in life. *Would owners be obligated to report on these later-in-life health problems, if they banked sperm?* Would SV be tasked with removing dogs from the "bank" based on health issues that manifested after the dog retired from breeding? Would you trust people to report accurately, and SV to act appropriately on that information, if the dogs were famous, fashionable, and valuable? Any thoughts?
> 
> (I have no idea what the answers are. I just pay attention to institutions and policy incentives, so problems like this are interesting to me.)


I would say that's a reasonable requirement


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I still do not understand the benefit to giving the SV control over something that people already do?.... Plus the SV currently does not allow AI.


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