# 10 week old working line dog - unprovoked aggression towards 5 year old



## Mavka (5 mo ago)

Hello,

I recently purchased a GSD puppy from a friend who has two very sound working line dogs that he keeps in a family environment. The parents are of sound temperament and haven't had any issues. Both are well trained dogs, who haven't shown any inappropriate aggression. The puppy I got (Mavka) was the calmest female in the litter. She has been with us for 1 week now. This is my first GSD, but growing up I have always had dogs, and while I still have a lot to learn, I am familiar with dog body language.

I have two children, a 5 year old and a 6 month old. We talked with the 5 year old extensively before we got the puppy, and he has been very good with her, especially for a 5 year old. Other than puppy nipping (which he responds to with a "no bite" and withdrawing attention), they haven't had any problems.

Today, he walked calmly into the room while the puppy was lying down at my feet. She immediately stood up, growled, raised her hackles, bared her teeth and started barking while advancing on him. I tried yelling "NO - BAD DOG" to no result, and when I saw she was undeterred I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and carried her to her kennel. In the moment, my focus wasn't on issuing a correction, but on preventing an attack or redirecting it towards me. Fortunately, she is well bonded to me already so she did not bite at me. This was not play initiation or in any way friendly. Prior to this, two times when my wife walked up to me in the yard, she responded with somewhat aggressive barking but I did not see her advance. She also did this to the 5 year old once. On each occasion I told her "no, bad dog" and when they approached she calmed down and was friendly. The only reaction I have seen that was similar in tone and behavior was when she met our cat (who is currently safely living in his own room behind closed doors.)

I have been going through my mind trying to figure out if there was a provocation, and I cannot think of anything other than that he had just gotten out of the bath and was wearing a bathrobe, which she hasn't seen before. She did come in to him in the bathroom 10 minutes prior while he was in the bath, and sniffed and gently licked at him. Later in the day I carefully reintroduced them, and she was all love and licks and wagging tails. They have never been together unsupervised, and he has always been good with her.

After this incident, my wife is very concerned, and is afraid to have her out of the kennel if I am not home - which obviously will be a problem with getting her out to use the bathroom during the day. The breeder is willing to take her back, if we need to go that route. My five year old (bless his heart) doesn't even realize what happened and still loves the dog.

I would really appreciate any advice or feedback on a couple of issues.
1) Is this likely to have been an isolated incident, or is this a sign of a more serious aggression issue lurking below the surface?
2) Is it likely that this dog is simply not suited for an environment with small children, and should be returned to the breeder for rehoming?
3) If returning her is not the best solution, what steps do I need to take before I can find a trainer to keep my children safe?
4) Does anyone know a good trainer in the Jacksonville, FL area who may be able to help me?

Thank you for the help,
Mavka's Family


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I won't offer much here other that to say I've never seen a 10 week old puppy offer true "aggression" although I'm sure it's very unsettling in the moment. At that age, it's fear, not aggression.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

WNGD said:


> I won't offer much here other that to say I've never seen a 10 week old puppy offer true "aggression" although I'm sure it's very unsettling in the moment. At that age, it's fear, not aggression.


Thank you for the feedback.

Wouldn't a fear reaction generally involve the dog backing away from the perceived threat, or holding its ground? There was a decisive advance forwards. This was very similar to her reaction to our cat (growl with teeth -> bark -> slow advance -> chase.) The big difference in this instance is that I grabbed her before the chase portion.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Your breeder raised his dogs (dame and sire) to be sound in a family environment. Your breeder is your friend. My suggestion is to talk to your breeder as what to expect from a GSD puppy as it adjusts to your home and family while going through all various stages and phases of the first year or two. 
Puppy has only been with you for a week and what @WNGD said.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Mavka said:


> Thank you for the feedback.
> 
> Wouldn't a fear reaction generally involve the dog backing away from the perceived threat, or holding its ground? There was a decisive advance forwards. This was very similar to her reaction to our cat (growl with teeth -> bark -> slow advance -> chase.) The big difference in this instance is that I grabbed her before the chase portion.


Regarding your assumption concerning fear: I can think of dozens of creatures in both lower and higher forms that prefer to do a threat display when threatened (humans included). It's often called fight or flight.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

Springbrz said:


> Your breeder raised his dogs (dame and sire) to be sound in a family environment. Your breeder is your friend. My suggestion is to talk to your breeder as what to expect from a GSD puppy as it adjusts to your home and family while going through all various stages and phases of the first year or two.
> Puppy has only been with you for a week and what @WNGD said.


Thank you,

Of course he was the first person I contacted about this. He's a personal friend and we have been talking about me getting a puppy when he had a litter for nearly two years. His advice was to seek a professional trainer. I was hoping to find feedback here because this was very unusual behavior for any dog I have known before. The body language and lack of any known provocation were all far from anything I have encountered, read about, or been told about. In all other ways she has been a normal puppy, with the normal puppy issues, and has been making good progress on all of them.


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## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

As above, chat with your breeder. 

I am concerned that your wife is not comfortable having a 10 week puppy out of the kennel if you are not home. I would chat with her openly about what you both are expecting from this dog and how to manage the pup. 

They are little raptors at that age, and like small children get cranky when tired/overstimulated.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

Biscuit said:


> As above, chat with your breeder.
> 
> I am concerned that your wife is not comfortable having a 10 week puppy out of the kennel if you are not home. I would chat with her openly about what you both are expecting from this dog and how to manage the pup.
> 
> They are little raptors at that age, and like small children get cranky when tired/overstimulated.


She was comfortable with the pup before this, and was enthusastic about getting a GSD and ready to help put in the work. She had the 6 month old in her arms when this all happened, and so was watching helplessly as the dog advanced on our 5 year old. She is now scared that it will happen again without me home to intervene, and that the 5 year old will suffer a real bite. This was not puppy/play nipping, which the puppy is of course also doing, and we have been working on correcting by simply saying "no bite" and withdrawing the hand. I promise I would not be wasting anyone's time if it was the normal and expected play/nipping that we were warned of in advance.

I apologize if I was not clear in my original message, but the only reason I registered an account and am seeking advice from this forum is because this behavior was well outside of anything that we expected or had been warned about.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

To add, in all other ways she has been a model pup. She is already mostly housebroken if we are vigilant about watching for signs, she sleeps calmly in her crate at night and only whines when she needs to go out, she has already learned to sit and is starting to practice stay when waiting for her food and water, has already learned not to jump on furniture/beds/people for the most part, and has been making good progress on the general puppy nips (down ~50% I'd say.)

We're on two acres (fenced), so she gets to go out and run around and chase a ball several times a day for exercise. We really are trying to do this right, and did a lot of research and preparation before we decided to get a GSD. 

The only other issue we have had is her trying to get the cat, but that was something we knew might be an issue before we brought her home.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Just returning the puppy might be the best thing for the pup and your family.An infant, a five year old,and a noisy bitey pup needing multiple potty breaks sounds pretty overwhelming for your wife.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

dogma13 said:


> Just returning the puppy might be the best thing for the pup and your family.An infant, a five year old,and a noisy bitey pup needing multiple potty breaks sounds pretty overwhelming for your wife.


I'm only away from home 2-3 days a week, we had no concerns about any of that before this specific incident. She is full time stay at home. She was an active part of us deciding to get the dog, we had talked about bringing a GSD into our home for two years before we decided to bring this puppy home.

I really am not trying to be rude, but we did know we were getting a puppy and talk about the work that would go into a puppy beforehand. There was no issue before this event. I really need help in interpreting this specific incident, which was out of the blue. It was like a switch flipped in the dog, and she had decided my son was prey. Night and day difference between the bared teeth, angry bark, and raised hackles and the normal puppy play. If I could figure out what provoked it, I would be far less worried, but right now I am stumped.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I think this is a serious thing and you should probably bring a professional in to see the interactions and see your dog. A second or third eye can be so helpful. 
That said, I have one possible theory: puppies have fear periods. One day a chair is fine, then suddenly, there’s a pair of headphones on the chair and it’s a monster. Check it out together and reassure the dog that it’s fine, nothing to freak out about. Move on with life, and they don’t remember the monster. It’s of course very different if that fear period monster is your own child. Any person would have trouble responding correctly and the dog will probably feed off that response.
So what I’m saying is that it may be a big character flaw in the dog or it may not be a big deal at all, but that doesn’t mean the humans will respond appropriately, even best case scenario.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm not trying to be rude either,but you're not alone in being unpleasantly surprised by the reality of a GSD puppy vs preconceived notions. We can only make guesses since none of us were there.Talk to the breeder.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Mavka said:


> She was comfortable with the pup before this, and was enthusastic about getting a GSD and ready to help put in the work. She had the 6 month old in her arms when this all happened, and so was watching helplessly as the dog advanced on our 5 year old. She is now scared that it will happen again without me home to intervene, and that the 5 year old will suffer a real bite. This was not puppy/play nipping, which the puppy is of course also doing, and we have been working on correcting by simply saying "no bite" and withdrawing the hand. I promise I would not be wasting anyone's time if it was the normal and expected play/nipping that we were warned of in advance.
> 
> I apologize if I was not clear in my original message, but the only reason I registered an account and am seeking advice from this forum is because this behavior was well outside of anything that we expected or had been warned about.


If your wife is afraid of the dog at this point the future does not look good. I understand the desire to protect children but really, we are talking about a puppy here. Even if it got right out of line, pick it up and remove it.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

CeraDean said:


> I think this is a serious thing and you should probably bring a professional in to see the interactions and see your dog. A second or third eye can be so helpful.
> That said, I have one possible theory: puppies have fear periods. One day a chair is fine, then suddenly, there’s a pair of headphones on the chair and it’s a monster. Check it out together and reassure the dog that it’s fine, nothing to freak out about. Move on with life, and they don’t remember the monster. It’s of course very different if that fear period monster is your own child. Any person would have trouble responding correctly and the dog will probably feed off that response.
> So what I’m saying is that it may be a big character flaw in the dog or it may not be a big deal at all, but that doesn’t mean the humans will respond appropriately, even best case scenario.


Thank you! This makes perfect sense.

This makes me think that perhaps the "trigger" was the bathrobe. Before and after the incident she has been a normal puppy with my son. We're going to try an experiment where I have her on-lead when he walks into the room wearing the bathrobe, and if she reacts reassure her and let her investigate it/him at her own pace. I'll report back - if it works, you're a saint!

We still would be very interested in knowing any good trainers in the Jacksonville, FL area who have experience with GSDs, even if we resolve this. Always a valuable resource!



Sabis mom said:


> If your wife is afraid of the dog at this point the future does not look good. I understand the desire to protect children but really, we are talking about a puppy here. Even if it got right out of line, pick it up and remove it.


She is usually wearing the baby, so it's hard to just grab the dog for her. We're not planning on much interaction between the dog and the kids when I'm not home to help anyway. If we can figure out why this happened, it will be okay and she won't be afraid of the puppy. We have had her out since then and she acted like a normal puppy, friendly and playful with everyone. It helped tone things down for my wife. She loved the puppy so much before this that she was asking when we would get "her" GSD.

A 20 pound puppy can still do serious damage to a five year old if she is actually trying to hurt him - which we had never expected her to show anything like actual aggression from a puppy (unless he provoked it, which we've worked to prevent.) We expected and aren't worried about play/nipping, and he has been handling it well without us having to intervene. 

My wife grew up with dogs in a rural/village setting. She's generally comfortable with them. I'm sorry, I should have clarified that the fear was specific to this incident, not a general thing.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My *adult* GSD freaked out when she saw me wearing a broad-brimmed hat for the first time. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find it was the bathrobe which caused the pup's reaction. His reaction was probably a mix of fear and curiosity - the barking was likely meant to frighten your son, in case this was something that was a real threat to the pup. I believe if you'd let him get close enough to smell your son, and check out the robe, he would have been all relieved wagging tail and wiggles.

Edit: cross posted with you! Glad to see we are thinking along the same lines!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It sounds like the puppy is resource guarding you. I would give the dog a correction whenever they try it and then put them away. Your friend owns the parents and is the breeder. They should be able to put eyes on the situation and give you some advice. Take what I’ve said with a grain of salt since I haven’t seen what’s going on and don’t have the entire picture.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> I won't offer much here other that to say I've never seen a 10 week old puppy offer true "aggression" although I'm sure it's very unsettling in the moment. At that age, it's fear, not aggression.


I have, usually around a food bowl…


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Biscuit said:


> As above, chat with your breeder.
> 
> I am concerned that your wife is not comfortable having a 10 week puppy out of the kennel if you are not home. I would chat with her openly about what you both are expecting from this dog and how to manage the pup.
> 
> They are little raptors at that age, and like small children get cranky when tired/overstimulated.


This is what really caught my eye. I can't imagine be afraid of a 10 week old puppy, or the inability to handle her. Was she onboard with getting a puppy at this time in your family?


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

@CeraDean - you are a lifesaver!

We brought him out in the bathrobe and she immediately started growling at him. We had him stand still while we let her approach at her own pace, once she sniffed and realized it was her buddy, she immediately started wagging her tail and being loving.

We both feel much better now.

Thank you all for the help - back to enjoying our delightful puppy!


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

She says thank you too!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Mavka said:


> View attachment 590918
> 
> 
> She says thank you too!


Great update ❤


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Mavka said:


> I'm sorry, I should have clarified that the fear was specific to this incident, not a general thing


That changes everything.
A tip for the very near future - GSD puppys bite hard enough to draw blood and running 5 year old is great fun to herd and chase.Stay very aware, especially your wife as she navigating and directing all three little ones


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

duplicate post


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Mavka said:


> @CeraDean - you are a lifesaver!
> 
> We brought him out in the bathrobe and she immediately started growling at him. We had him stand still while we let her approach at her own pace, once she sniffed and realized it was her buddy, she immediately started wagging her tail and being loving.
> 
> ...


HA!! Exactly what I predicted!! 🤣 YESS!


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> That changes everything.
> A tip for the very near future - GSD puppys bite hard enough to draw blood and running 5 year old is great fun to herd and chase.Stay very aware, especially your wife as she navigating and directing all three little ones


If she’s also worried about handling all three little creatures, you can buy a x-pen to help manage. I saw videos of people putting their pups in a x-pen and put some chewable stuff like cardboard or empty milk jugs. Might give your wife a bit of relief.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

She's adorable. Going forward, you need to be aware that this puppy may have similar fear reactions to new things. There are training strategies that can help with this and build her confidence. It will be important to introduce new things to her in a controlled situation, so that she doesn't have reactions like this.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I am going to go a little against the current here and really question whether a bathrobe on a child would caused the behavior. 

Two things stood out to me. 1) The puppy was laying at your feet when the child entered the room. 2) You mentioned that the pup is totally bonded to you. 

I see this as resource guarding you. And a ten week old puppy could easily feel like they have the right to decide who approaches you. Your son coming into a room is far different from your coaxing and praising the pup for not showing an aggressive response. Entering the room could have been perceived as a breech of his territory. I just don't see that level of response from a ten week old puppy because a kid was wearing a bathrobe.

Since your wife really needs to be on board with working through this or any issue (and there will be issues, even just minor ones, that owners don't have with other breeds), I would return the puppy to your friend. This is not an easy breed to raise and your wife hasn't seen anything yet. Wait until your 18 month puppy chases and nips at your kid for running in the yard. You aren't home and wife can't recall the dog quick enough. No fun. And the dog shouldn't spend it's time in a crate waiting for you to get home.
Sheilah


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

dogma13 said:


> That changes everything.
> A tip for the very near future - GSD puppys bite hard enough to draw blood and running 5 year old is great fun to herd and chase.Stay very aware, especially your wife as she navigating and directing all three little ones


I already have a few little cuts! The puppy teeth are like razors.

My tank of a toddler used to be covered in scratches from the cat that he refused to stop snuggling. The poor critter eventually accepted its fate and decided to just enjoy the cuddles. We have the neosporin ready! And we of course won't leave them alone together.



Hopps said:


> If she’s also worried about handling all three little creatures, you can buy a x-pen to help manage. I saw videos of people putting their pups in a x-pen and put some chewable stuff like cardboard or empty milk jugs. Might give your wife a bit of relief.


Thank you! I will take a look at it.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

sitstay said:


> I am going to go a little against the current here and really question whether a bathrobe on a child would caused the behavior.
> 
> Two things stood out to me. 1) The puppy was laying at your feet when the child entered the room. 2) You mentioned that the pup is totally bonded to you.
> 
> ...


That was one of the breeder's theories - we tested it by taking turns taking away a favorite toy. No hostility to anyone in the family doing it, including my son. A baleful look, and then happiness when she got it back. Normally my son comes and jumps on me and she doesn't even look up. When he came back out in the bathrobe, the behavior restarted immediately. I will certainly keep an eye out for resource guarding, but I think that wasn't the case here, fortunately.

It's very different feeling between the dog hurting the kid when he is playing rough with her, and when the dog gives an aggressive, "attack" response to him entering the room. I'm not worried about behavior that can be corrected, we knew we were getting a GSD! We've already had multiple discussions with him about running and shouting around her. I was worried about a dog showing what appeared to be unprovoked, extreme aggression at my kid. Now that we know what was happening and how to deal with it, there's no more feeling of panic, and she's very happy with the dog again.

I understand everyone cautioning me about the dog being, well, a GSD but we really did plan on the "normal" GSD issues. We didn't buy this puppy on impulse, we have been planning for a GSD for two years now. We are prepared for normal, accidental bites and roughhousing. Those can be trained out of both the kid and the dog. We weren't prepared for what looked like unprovoked, full bore aggression in a dog that had otherwise been a model puppy. I really appreciate everyone who helped resolve this, my wife is back to loving on the pup.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

sitstay said:


> I am going to go a little against the current here and really question whether a bathrobe on a child would caused the behavior.
> 
> Two things stood out to me. 1) The puppy was laying at your feet when the child entered the room. 2) You mentioned that the pup is totally bonded to you.


I think Sitstay may have a valid point, especially since you mentioned other incidences of growling when the pup was with you and others came into the area. Since the pup has only been with you a short time, this may work itself out as the pup grows to bond both with your wife and child. However, it is something to be aware of and to make sure the pup does bond with your wife and children.


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## Cigarillo (Dec 20, 2021)

I’d like to give my impression, not from the POV of GSD - or even Dog - expert. I am hoping I bring the experience of a devoted parent/grandmother and animal lover.

I trust you don’t mind my being honest, knowing that I really don’t have the GSD expertise you ask for. Here goes:
I just hope that there doesn’t remain a seed of distrust or even resentment with you & your wife, regarding this particular dog.
You are the one bonded with the dog,yet this incident sparked a gut-level response that I believe you should respect.
You mentioned that your 5 year old is good for his age, & you are speaking as a loving & protective parent - of course.
At 10-11 weeks the dog & your family could move on; it will get more & more difficult with time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would need to see a video of what actually happened to even begin to form an opinion. Reading your whole post, it sounds like the puppy was startled by something "strange" and reacted to that. Not abnormal. But, and I say this with a little glee...that's a puppy that was startled by something and went FORWARD. And recovered quickly once you showed her that it was ok. As a sport person, and a lover of this breed, that is what I want to see. 

It sounds like you have a lot going on so I'm just going to recommend you find a good trainer. You have a working line puppy showing a behavior that you don't know what to do with and a young child. So I would definitely get a trainer. You should have very good obedience on that dog as an adult. It sounds like she has the potential to be a strong dog as she matures.

South Florida? Where? A specific location might help someone recommend a trainer or a club to you. Would your wife be willing/able to take her to training as well?


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## ctu24 (Oct 1, 2006)

There is an organization called “Family Paws”
that specializes in helping support families with regards to dog and baby/toddler dynamics: Home - Family Paws Parent Education They might have some resources to help you navigate issues that arise. They also have a support hotline.

To me it sounds like your puppy is fearful and lacking confidence (remember she’s dealing with the trauma of being separated from her mother and littermates and being thrust into a new environment). Honestly the puppy has no clue what “no bad - bad dog” means so instead of trying to “correct” the behavior I’d work hard on using food to help the puppy build positive associations with your children. Try to find a good trainer that can help give you strategies to help build the puppy’s confidence inside and outside of the home. If you feel like this puppy is not the right fit or is going to be too much work, I’d recommend giving back to the breeder sooner than later so they can find a more suitable home. Puppies in general are a lot of work but if you have one with a tendency toward being reactive, know that it’s probably going to require extra work to help it feel comfortable and confident in other situations.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Hopps said:


> you can buy a x-pen to help manage. I saw videos of people putting their pups in a x-pen and put some chewable stuff


I would've gone crazy if I didn't get an x-pen when Frankie was very young. I wouldn't have been able to get anything done in the house. And I don't have babies!

Puppies that young need to sleep a lot (16-20 hrs/day). Several 2-hour naps a day are recommended. Frankie would start out entertaining himself with a toy and then slowly fall asleep. An x-pen is the best place for those naps.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I do not understand why people expect a 10 week old puppy to not react to strange things. Every single puppy I've had does. Of course they will. It's a new and scary world. Trash bags....omg the evil trash bags. Every puppy has to work thru those. Cows? Those MONSTERS! Big equipment? Yup. Little kids with a bathrobe flying behind them? Not surprising. We have no idea what THEY are seeing.

what's important is how they react, how they recover and how the owner helps them thru it.

Puppy reacted...and moved FORWARD. I would not consider that a weak nerved puppy. That's a good sign. A puppy that ran behind the owner or was like "I am OUT of here!" would concern me. They didn't recover because the owner didn't know how to help her thru it But when they replicated the situation and helped her, she recovered. I honestly do not see a problem with the information we've been given.

Your method of correction and training need some work for sure. Telling the puppy she's bad when she's having a meltdown and correcting for that is unfair and will be ineffective going forward. 

I would talk the breeder about proper training for this puppy. Make sure to socialize her well (and that does not mean flood her with people and dogs). Socialization is allowing her to experience and watch her environment. Look on the USCA site for working dog clubs in your area. You may be able to find a good trainer thru them.

Here is my favorite blog for socializing





Socializing Your Puppy: how it should look | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee


The Biggest Mistake Of All: PUPPY SOCIALIZATION. Dogs need to be socialized. That means that dogs need to SEE the world, and handle it with social grace. We need to teach them the skills and habits necessary for participating within our society. Unfortunately socialization got misunderstood as...




naughtydogge.com





USCA website
germanshepherddog.com

Look on facebook for IPO Training. 
You may be able to hook up with a trainer that way as well.

In training - look for a trainer that is shaping and luring puppies. Teaching them the behaviors and putting a good foundation on them. Don't go with a yank and crank, slap a prong or ecollar on the puppy and using compulsion for training. there is plenty of time for proofing and corrections later.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

techinstructor said:


> She's adorable. Going forward, you need to be aware that this puppy may have similar fear reactions to new things. There are training strategies that can help with this and build her confidence. It will be important to introduce new things to her in a controlled situation, so that she doesn't have reactions like this.


Thank you, I will look into fear reaction training techniques! But, I have to say that after dealing with it triggering on the 5 year old, the "pucker factor"  will be much less if she decides the sofa is the devil.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm just sitting here drinking my coffee and thinking about all my puppies as babies.

Seger's first introduction to children was a playground full of oddly moving creatures stuffed into snow suits. He lost his mind. Puppies do this kind of thing.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

I understand everyone's concerns about my wife, but now that we know what the issue was, it's all just a funny story and the family is back to being happy. Thank you all again for the help.

Imagine if one day out of nowhere, your spouse started running around the house with a kitchen knife stabbing demons - you wouldn't trust them or feel safe around them anymore. If you find out later that it was a rare reaction to the antibiotics they just started, then it becomes a funny story that you can bond over.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I am going to disagree with you here. It's not just a "funny story" nor is it a "rare reaction". It's information and it's an opportunity to learn a skill to help the puppy thru things. It's an opportunity to self evaluate, understand that your methods to her were unfair and you need to find a trainer to teach you the skills to train your dog. 

This is not a one time thing that happened. They go thru more of these moments as they grow. So do all of what I suggested so you aren't back here at 5 months and a year saying you have an out of control dog. Because that is a very common sequence of events we see from people.


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## Mavka (5 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> I am going to disagree with you here. It's not just a "funny story" nor is it a "rare reaction". It's information and it's an opportunity to learn a skill to help the puppy thru things. It's an opportunity to self evaluate, understand that your methods to her were unfair and you need to find a trainer to teach you the skills to train your dog.
> 
> This is not a one time thing that happened. They go thru more of these moments as they grow. So do all of what I suggested so you aren't back here at 5 months and a year saying you have an out of control dog. Because that is a very common sequence of events we see from people.


I apologize if I came off that way. We have always planned to seek out professional training for her, I read your post and appreciated it and the resources in it. I was trying to respond to the people who think that my wife now fears/hates the puppy.

For what it's worth, now that I know what happened I understand how to react to it. In the moment I saw her reacting with aggression towards my kid (who had walked calmly into the room and not made a sound). I was freaked out because I could not figure out what had provoked it, and thought that she had that response to my child simply being in the room. 

If she had reacted this way to a trash bag, or a chair, or to something blowing in the yard it would have been a very different scenario and I would have responded by reassuring her. But when you have a dog advancing on your child in an aggressive, and (seemingly) unprovoked way, it fires off every last bit of adrenaline in your system.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Bearshandler said:


> I have, usually around a food bowl…


Is it possible to find any video of a truly aggressive 10 week old pet puppy on the internet, maybe a trainer's site?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> Is it possible to find any video of a truly aggressive 10 week old pet puppy on the internet, maybe a trainer's site?


No idea the age.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> I do not understand why people expect a 10 week old puppy to not react to strange things. Every single puppy I've had does. Of course they will. It's a new and scary world. Trash bags....omg the evil trash bags. Every puppy has to work thru those. Cows? Those MONSTERS! Big equipment? Yup. Little kids with a bathrobe flying behind them? Not surprising. We have no idea what THEY are seeing.
> 
> what's important is how they react, how they recover and how the owner helps them thru it.
> 
> ...


When Ellie was maybe 4-5 months old this spring cleaning out the closet from winter clothes to summer, I put my big winter coat on with a fur hood over my head.. (never saw it before) she lost it, barking, didn’t know what it was.. I just knelt down, she ran to her bed, I waited it out she eventually came back around me jumped on my back possibly nipped the arm and figured it out.. came to the front got over it.. my ignorant self thinks she’s a confident forward dog, but not obliviously naive


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mavka said:


> I apologize if I came off that way. We have always planned to seek out professional training for her, I read your post and appreciated it and the resources in it. I was trying to respond to the people who think that my wife now fears/hates the puppy.
> 
> For what it's worth, now that I know what happened I understand how to react to it. In the moment I saw her reacting with aggression towards my kid (who had walked calmly into the room and not made a sound). I was freaked out because I could not figure out what had provoked it, and thought that she had that response to my child simply being in the room.
> 
> If she had reacted this way to a trash bag, or a chair, or to something blowing in the yard it would have been a very different scenario and I would have responded by reassuring her. But when you have a dog advancing on your child in an aggressive, and (seemingly) unprovoked way, it fires off every last bit of adrenaline in your system.



Ok I get it. But you had a 10 week old puppy....not a dog...a puppy. Remember that you are dealing with a baby reacting out of fear. I've raised children and puppies together. It was all handled poorly just because you lack the experience which caused you to overreact and now you know that. 

really - the important part is you learned and you own your reaction so that you are better going forward. And you just stated that..."now....I understand how to react to it" "I freaked out". I don't think that needs to be beat to death  

just make sure the trainer is balanced. Build the relationship and engagement. Have your wife and child build relationship and engagement. That's what you need to be doing at this age. Get a good trainer once her vaccines are done. You can start looking now thru the sources I gave you. Dave Kroyer has online training for only $10 a month. Not sure what he has for puppies but for that price, you could take a look. Recall games and engagement can be done now. 

I just got done tracking. Parts went well, others didn't. I have to ask myself "what did my dogs just show me?" The one showed me he's not ready for the next step and by pushing it, I'm causing conflict and he's shutting down. The other showed me that a bout of ants biting her racked her confidence but she's working the track. So I just take that information and apply it for next time. That philosophy works for everything. Just stop the situation and evaluate what you just saw.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Mavka said:


> to something blowing in the yard it would have been a very different scenario and I would have responded by reassuring her.


 And your response would have been wrong for that different scenario as well. Definitely get a trainer but also understand that you are the one who will be training the dog and be responsible for the dog, not the trainer, so do not trust anyone blindly.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

That’s nice to see you worked through the issue. A working line GSD is bred to chase and bite things, not to be nice to kids or people they don’t really know. They are incredibly intense animals. I’d be super cautious of this dog around the kids always.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sonny1984 said:


> That’s nice to see you worked through the issue. A working line GSD is bred to chase and bite things, not to be nice to kids or people they don’t really know. They are incredibly intense animals. I’d be super cautious of this dog around the kids always.


Why would you assume this dog should not be around kids? The breed should be good with kids.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Why would you assume this dog should not be around kids? The breed should be good with kids.


There is a lot of variation in the breed. With this being the OPs first working line dog, there is enough to learn without having kids in the picture. I’d just be cautious and not necessarily assume the dog is good with kids - maybe it will be, idk


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I thought I read somewhere the creator of the breed noted the gsd should have a natural fondness of children? Not sure maybe I’m wrong


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> No idea the age.


This video is can also be misleading depending on the person watching it. Kai used to go into “frienzies” where she would latch on, growling and all, to whatever body part she could. Based on the bruises I have little doubt she would’ve drawn blood had it not been winter (thick clothing). This was when she was much younger. 

Now I would say there is a fundamental difference between the dog shown in the video, and Kai’s prior behavior. However, the general population might have a dog who displays Kai’s behavior and think “oh no my puppy is aggressive”. 

Another reason why having an experienced trainer who knows the difference, and can offer appropriate help, is needed.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Carter Smith said:


> I thought I read somewhere the creator of the breed noted the gsd should have a natural fondness of children? Not sure maybe I’m wrong


Most GSDs are probably fine with children, but a lot of that will depend on the handler. The creator of the breed stopped breeding GSDs a long time ago(and who creating and promoting a breed wouldn’t say it was fond of children?). I wouldn’t have said something if this was a person who had already raised working line GSDs around kids. Any dog with drive could be a concern around small things which squeel and make suddent movements. One perspective to consider:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sonny1984 said:


> Most GSDs are probably fine with children, but a lot of that will depend on the handler. The creator of the breed stopped breeding GSDs a long time ago(and who creating and promoting a breed wouldn’t say it was fond of children?). I wouldn’t have said something if this was a person who had already raised working line GSDs around kids. Any dog with drive could be a concern around small things which squeel and make suddent movements. One perspective to consider:


The foundation stud was "mad about children". The vision for the breed was a dog that would herd, hunt, guard the home and amuse the children. Anything less is out of standard for the breed. And I have had high drive working dogs around that may be too exuberant for small children but never one that would go after one.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> The foundation stud was "mad about children". The vision for the breed was a dog that would herd, hunt, guard the home and amuse the children. Anything less is out of standard for the breed. And I have had high drive working dogs around that may be too exuberant for small children but never one that would go after one.


Too exhuburant could still cause problems. A dog doesn’t have to be out for blood in order hurt a 5 year old running and singing in the yard, flailng around it’s favorite stuffed animal.

I tried to sign up for a herding class - the first person I contacted had banned GSDs from participating, as too many attacked sheep with an intent to harm or kill. I think many working line GSDs are often out of the breed standard, and until you know what you have on your hands, it’s good to take caution around kids.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I don’t have all the knowledge to go back and forth on wlgsd and children, but i’m raising two young children and a wlgsd pup, I can think of one incident my pup needed a correction and that was the last. Does she need coaching and training on what’s acceptable behaviour of course, but none of it has ever been malicious, it’s just misguided play. I do believe she is quite mad for them though judging by her reaction when we pick our kids up from school or camp.. same reaction she has before I feed her. Spinning in circles. As mentioned though, there is a lot of variation within the breed. This is just my small sample of my experience.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I’m convinced dogs and kids is a genetic component. Sure with training we can control situations and make things “safe”, but either a dog is good with kids or it’s not. That my opinion based off my experiences.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> I’m convinced dogs and kids is a genetic component. Sure with training we can control situations and make things “safe”, but either a dog is good with kids or it’s not. That my opinion based off my experiences.



200%!!! Same with puppies...they are either good or not. I just had this conversation with a friend about females. She won't keep a female to breed that isn't good with puppies in general. They either have it or they don't.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> I’m convinced dogs and kids is a genetic component. Sure with training we can control situations and make things “safe”, but either a dog is good with kids or it’s not. That my opinion based off my experiences.


Whats the split iyo, more good with kids or more uninterested in kids?


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Mavka said:


> I understand everyone's concerns about my wife, but now that we know what the issue was, it's all just a funny story and the family is back to being happy. Thank you all again for the help.
> 
> Imagine if one day out of nowhere, your spouse started running around the house with a kitchen knife stabbing demons - you wouldn't trust them or feel safe around them anymore. If you find out later that it was a rare reaction to the antibiotics they just started, then it becomes a funny story that you can bond over.


That’s not really the equivalent. It’s more like an infant grabbing and pulling your hair then labeling it as true aggression. Then wanting to take it to a psychiatrist to see if it is suffering from antisocial personality disorder.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Sunsilver said:


> My *adult* GSD freaked out when she saw me wearing a broad-brimmed hat for the first time.


I know this is late to the discussion but Willow has also done this twice when I walked into the house still wearing my helmet and sunglasses after a bike ride...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Regarding Sam the Rottie; good progress in a super controlled environment with people who knew what they were doing and who had protective clothing for the test. Good that the owners also got lessons to continue the program with Sam. My concern is that puppies have good memory and people easily fall into old habits. And Sam will be a dog that you don't want to make mistakes with. I hope there are no kids involved. In that case I think it's better to find him a home without kids and that can handle this dog easier.


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## marymariah1961 (5 mo ago)

Mavka said:


> Hello, I recently purchased a GSD puppy from a friend who has two very sound working line dogs that he keeps in a family environment. The parents are of sound temperament and haven't had any issues. Both are well trained dogs, who haven't shown any inappropriate aggression. The puppy I got (Mavka) was the calmest female in the litter. She has been with us for 1 week now. This is my first GSD, but growing up I have always had dogs, and while I still have a lot to learn, I am familiar with dog body language. I have two children, a 5 year old and a 6 month old. We talked with the 5 year old extensively before we got the puppy, and he has been very good with her, especially for a 5 year old. Other than puppy nipping (which he responds to with a "no bite" and withdrawing attention), they haven't had any problems. Today, he walked calmly into the room while the puppy was lying down at my feet. She immediately stood up, growled, raised her hackles, bared her teeth and started barking while advancing on him. I tried yelling "NO - BAD DOG" to no result, and when I saw she was undeterred I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and carried her to her kennel. In the moment, my focus wasn't on issuing a correction, but on preventing an attack or redirecting it towards me. Fortunately, she is well bonded to me already so she did not bite at me. This was not play initiation or in any way friendly. Prior to this, two times when my wife walked up to me in the yard, she responded with somewhat aggressive barking but I did not see her advance. She also did this to the 5 year old once. On each occasion I told her "no, bad dog" and when they approached she calmed down and was friendly. The only reaction I have seen that was similar in tone and behavior was when she met our cat (who is currently safely living in his own room behind closed doors.) I have been going through my mind trying to figure out if there was a provocation, and I cannot think of anything other than that he had just gotten out of the bath and was wearing a bathrobe, which she hasn't seen before. She did come in to him in the bathroom 10 minutes prior while he was in the bath, and sniffed and gently licked at him. Later in the day I carefully reintroduced them, and she was all love and licks and wagging tails. They have never been together unsupervised, and he has always been good with her. After this incident, my wife is very concerned, and is afraid to have her out of the kennel if I am not home - which obviously will be a problem with getting her out to use the bathroom during the day. The breeder is willing to take her back, if we need to go that route. My five year old (bless his heart) doesn't even realize what happened and still loves the dog. I would really appreciate any advice or feedback on a couple of issues. 1) Is this likely to have been an isolated incident, or is this a sign of a more serious aggression issue lurking below the surface? 2) Is it likely that this dog is simply not suited for an environment with small children, and should be returned to the breeder for rehoming? 3) If returning her is not the best solution, what steps do I need to take before I can find a trainer to keep my children safe? 4) Does anyone know a good trainer in the Jacksonville, FL area who may be able to help me? Thank you for the help, Mavka's Family


 I have had shepherds my whole life and my current girl is 18 months old. I sent her to school for two weeks to avoid just what you are describing. My six year old son is pretty hyper and I wanted no issues. She is very very bonded with me and will bark and her hackles go up if she senses anyone advancing on me that is not welcome. Even my son had to learn to have her see him and hear him if comes up to me when it's dark. Shepherds are very loyal many times to one primary person and with positive reinforcement they will accept who you accept. Saying bad dog will probably make the situation worse. Try reinforcing her in a positive way. Get help with obedience if you need it. It will be difficult to live with a shepherd who feels they are the alpha. Make sure you get references and reviews on a trainer. Shepherds are powerful and they need to respect the rules and people in the home. She is very young to be labeled aggressive. She has attached to you and needs to respect your commands and see you as the head of the pack. Then your wife them your children. Many times they respect the one person then place themselves next. Good luck and hopefully you can get help so your family can enjoy these beautiful animals.


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## Atlas Shrugged (5 mo ago)

I can understand why this was scary especially if you havent owned a gsd before, as someone else said previously gsd puppies are little raptors, my arms are covered in scars from puppy teeth as Im on my 4th one but I feel they are not a dog for the faint hearted, you will get injuries, scrapes and arguments - oh yes they argue back! But the loyalty, friendship and qualities of these guys makes it so worthwhile, they are a very unique dog.
Our last boy who passed away in May 21 was similar to this, we believe it was because the breeders husband had passed away suddenly before at the age of 32 and she was left to carry on the kennels, look after the pups and hold down a job , she has given away breeding now as too much. But becuase he didnt get the attention he should have got from the breeder he was a little on the wild side, also the biggest out of the litter so must have got his own way. If you tried to correct him and discipline him it actually got worse it was like a fight between wills by 3-4 months he was that bad that he would have temper tantrums if he didnt get his own way. Eventually we kept him on a lead inside all the time so he understood that we were in control of him and whenever he had a tantrum we would just stop giving him any attention - this seemed to work the best with him. Sometimes you have to find what makes your puppy tick ie food, attention or toys etc and use it to your advantage with training. Later on as he always had a definat personality food become the greatest tool, he used to love my home made biccies and would do anything for them so it ws a great training tool.
This little raptor who we too nearly gave away grew up to be one of the most gentle beautiful boys ever - we miss him dearly!


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Mavka said:


> Hello,
> 
> I recently purchased a GSD puppy from a friend who has two very sound working line dogs that he keeps in a family environment. The parents are of sound temperament and haven't had any issues. Both are well trained dogs, who haven't shown any inappropriate aggression. The puppy I got (Mavka) was the calmest female in the litter. She has been with us for 1 week now. This is my first GSD, but growing up I have always had dogs, and while I still have a lot to learn, I am familiar with dog body language.
> 
> ...


she a working GSD=high drive=may not be a good match with little kids. (I think) you may want to re-home or return her to breeder and get a lab=those are family dogs


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## Maxine222 (May 25, 2020)

Awwww so sorry you're experiencing this with such a YOUNG dog. I have owned 3 german Shepherds in the past, recently lost my beloved dog that was 8 yrs old. Ok, with my black working gsd , Stella, my 2nd one, I remember well that my young grandson of 6 put a blanket over his body and appeared in the hallway and my dog jumped up barking and moving closer, I immediately realized the dog NEVER seen that before. I yelled at my grandchild to take the blanket off!! the dog ran over sniffing the blanket and saw the kid was ok. All good. Shepherds need LOTS AND LOTS of exposure to different things, everyday. My Maxine the 3rd one I just lost was different and each Shepherd believe me is Different! and unique. Took each one immediately to obedience school. So Maxine was like a police type dog. Had to keep her mind busy as well. I definitely had her evaluated by a good experienced dog trainer, who analyzed her for 3 days before she could join the rest of the class. Well she told me Mac was a head strong dog but sweet temperament. All true about her loved all my 8 grandchildren. By this time at 8 she seen what kids can do and understood their antics. Also never left her alone with them to protect her. lol 
So you have some choices here. Don't be frightened the dog will sense your fear. TRAIN do obedience classes with the family.
Enjoy the classes with your dog. Have a someone experienced evaluate the dog 
If you feel scared and are not ready for this yet, return the dog and then when your kids are older try again. It doesn't have to be a German shepherd, there are so many wonderful dogs out there waiting for a home.
Don't feel guilty do what is best for your family in the present Good luck 👍


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