# What is and isn't protective behavior?



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

In another thread on this forum I suggested that a 5 month old puppy was being protective, and was told by several other forum members that it could not be because the puppy was too young. Now, I understand that a lot of people mistake fear behavior as being protective, and in many cases this leads to problems. However, my puppy at 4 months old was exhibiting very classic protective behavior by standing between me and strangers. She would also bark and advance on perceived threats. Now this latter, the barking, is not really considered protective depending on who you listen to, but my 90 lb bitch who is no longer with us did the same thing, and she was not fearful. So, if barking at a perceived threat is not protective, even when done by an adult dog who is unafraid, what is it? Is the definition of protective behavior so narrow that only the act of protecting qualifies, and even then only when the dog is being quiet as some of the literature on the subject suggests? And does a behavior count as protective only when the dog can fully back it up? If so, how can a dog be overprotective? And how can a puppy show any behavior other than fear? Please enlighten me!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Dogs bark because they are nervous, frustrated or bored. At least in my experience. 

It isn't that pups don't ever show early signs of protective instinct, it's that it's exceedingly rare and not generally something to be encouraged as it can be problematic.
Young pups generally bark because they are alerting you so that you can come and deal with it.
Think of protection as resource guarding, you being the resource. Your pup stepping forward shows confidence, good job. She is not necessarily protecting, but trusts that you have her back so is willing to push.
I had a pup who behaved exactly as you describe, I took her immediately to a trainer because I was concerned. She did end up being a PPD, and a detection and patrol dog, but she was an exceptional dog. I was very lucky, and a good trainer stepped in, assessed and helped me out.

But then again, I am not that bright so hopefully someone smarter will weigh in.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

I am not sure. It is often said on the forum it isn't protective behaviour and no dog will be a protector unless trained to do so.

I disagree with this as the dogs I have known growing up have always been willing to back up their barking. Our dobermans attacked a few unwanted strangers that should not have been in our yard. One of our dobermans even made a move to attack my Dad when she thought he was hurting me... I was the youngest in the family and she did see me as her person to look after. One of our dobermans was a gentle sole - he was very impressive looking but wouldn't have hurt a fly until one day when a workman decided to kick our other doberman as she got in the way... boy was he sorry... he had to spend the rest of the day (until my Dad got home) sitting on top of a pile of grass he was supposed to be laying as the male doberman wouldn't let him come back down. Our dobermans were not a liability though - they behaved perfectly around children and people we invited into our house... just trying to get in uninvited was a bad idea, lol.


But I know Kaiser might bark and look mean when a stranger approaches our yard but he loves people so as soon as they say something nice to him he is putty in their hands... not much of a protector - and I wouldn't want to have to rely on him to protect me. So he is all bark and nothing to back it up.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I've linked a couple of past threads that discusses the differences between fear behaviour and protectiveness. They are worth the read:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ive-behaviour-may-well-fearful-behaviour.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/156050-protective-fearful.html


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> In another thread on this forum I suggested that a 5 month old puppy was being protective, and was told by several other forum members that it could not be because the puppy was too young. Now, I understand that a lot of people mistake fear behavior as being protective, and in many cases this leads to problems. However, my puppy at 4 months old was exhibiting very classic protective behavior by standing between me and strangers. She would also bark and advance on perceived threats. Now this latter, the barking, is not really considered protective depending on who you listen to, but my 90 lb bitch who is no longer with us did the same thing, and she was not fearful. So, if barking at a perceived threat is not protective, even when done by an adult dog who is unafraid, what is it? Is the definition of protective behavior so narrow that only the act of protecting qualifies, and even then only when the dog is being quiet as some of the literature on the subject suggests? And does a behavior count as protective only when the dog can fully back it up? If so, how can a dog be overprotective? And how can a puppy show any behavior other than fear? Please enlighten me!


When Sabi was about 4 months old I noticed that if a person stepped in on me she would position herself between us and stand her ground. She did it with my son as well. I sought help to assess her because when an actual threat happened one day she tried to bite, there wasn't a lot of barking and posturing.
When Shadow was about 6 months old a grumpy homeless man came at us. Shadow barked like mad, stayed between us and chased him off, but was all noise and lunging. 
Sabi was protective, Shadow is afraid. 
The instinct to defend their people is often there, it is in Shadow, but they are acting out of fear which makes them unpredictable and is incredibly stressful for them.


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## clipke (Nov 14, 2017)

Both my 9 month old GSD puppy and my 2 year old Rottie mix back up their barking. If they hear any noises at all, they run to the door and bark. I'm fully confident they would maul anything that is perceived as a threat on our property. They're also trained to bark on command. It's super naive to assume barking is only related to fear. My dogs growl as well in between barks, in my experience growling is solely a protective, aggressive action. At the dog park, growling and barking are their way of warning other dogs to cut the ****. Logically looking at the barking as a warning sign, rather than fear, makes more sense.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

A fearful dog will put on a show barking and lunging at "any" perceived threat. The same dog may advance on that "threat" if the display appears to be working. If the threat puts pressure on the dog and advances toward it, the fearful dog will often look to escape. Some dogs take it up a notch and bite, but it is being done out of fear and not reliable.


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## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

I think it's one of those situations that you just don't know what a dog might do, unless they have been professionally trained for ppo, and that at best can be done successfully with dogs that have the right temperament for it. When Tasha is barking she looks extremely imtidating to others, but in reality she wants to play! She likes people and thinks every dog is her friend! I don't know what she would do if I was actually attacked by someone! The only way to find out would be to stage it, but, I would never put someone at risk just to find out! The protection part for me really is her "looks" not a whole lot of people are going to want to try something with her around. I've seen people run the other way when they see us on walks!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dogs at 5 or 6 months can show protective behavior, but the behavior is limited by their mental maturity. Now most GS today won’t have this behavior at this age, because most breeders have watered down this trait so that it isn’t exhibited until later, if at all. 
I have a 6 month old puppy right now that shows strong protective instincts at night with strange noises and strange people he doesn’t know. 
Now that doesn’t mean he can back it up now as he will at two years, but he definitely shows protective traits at this age and there is NO question in my mind that at two years of age you will have to go through him if you broke into my house. And yet he is very social puppy with others especially under non threatening circumstances.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I think the last sentence in cliffs post nails this. I remember some of the other threads that Tim is talking about and they were young dogs barking at non threatening things - the one that stands out in my memory being a stroller. To me, for it to be protective behavior, it has to be towards an actual threat. 

There's fear based behaviors, and there's protective behaviors, and the difference is in the legitimacy of the threat. Otherwise the dog isn't protecting you he's protecting himself ie acting on his defensive drive. Or as someone else mentioned potentially resource guarding.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I think a question that is not considered that much is who is the pup showing this aggressive behavior being protective of? It it himself or his handler? Most likely, it is himself. Training, experience and maturity are what usually lead to a dog being protective of his handler/family, but there are exceptions. You also have to consider the emotional motivation behind the pup's behavior. It sounds like defensive behavior, so the emotion is usually worry. That is not necessarily bad, because all defense is based on worry. It is how it matures out that matters. It could be a genetically hardwired, very confident defense or decreasingly so down the continuum. My bias is that GSD pups hat show early defense for subtle reasons are not always the strongest dogs, but again, there are exceptions and certain bloodlines show early defense that mature out to be very strong dogs, so it helps to know the bloodlines you are dealing with. As usual, there is not a simple, straightforward answer to the question. All dogs, like people are individuals and genetics and rearing practices can vary greatly.
Another thing to consider is what the dog will be used for. A property protection dog guarding a warehouse will do better with different traits than a PP dog that needs to be social, yet discerning.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There really isn't a simple answer to questions like this. Dogs are not logical creatures and because of that intentions are not always so black and white. 

A dog could be fearful and protective and frustrated and playful all at the same time while displaying a behavior like barking and lunging at the end of a line. It's hard to interpret sometimes. 

Leash reactivity for example, can happen for several reasons. Maybe it's frustration because the dog wants to go meet and play and when it doesn't happen frustration turns to anger and anger turns to biting after a lot of practicing the behavior.

Maybe it's fear to protect self.

Maybe it's resource guarding the human against other dogs.

People have a hard enough time decerning motivations in other people of their own species. Trying to decern the motivations of a dog which has alien thought and cognitive processes by using our human frame of reference is folly.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Whether I'm right or not, its easier for me to just treat anything their doing as a puppy as them being bothered by something. Even if they're completely confident dogs, or kinda nervy about it. I just lump it in like that so that I don't get carried away with anything. Once they're older and show that they're bonded with us, confident enough to be neutral and indifferent to stupid stuff, still looking to please us to a certain point, then I might say protective.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My current thought is...children aren't allowed to make grown up decisions and shouldn't have grown up responsibilities. Same should go for puppies.

I don't think puppies ought to believe that they have to or should protect themselves or us...they are just babies...

I do believe a stronger more stable dog can probably do a little more at a younger age, my female did one impressive display of barking off a creepy man in the woods when she was between 1-2 but probably closer to one...she was definitely not fully mature. But she was so social and stable and right on the money about circumstances from the start, she was also bold and very comfortable in her own skin. She surely wasn't trying to protect anything at 4 months, she was a happy baby stealing water bowls at puppy class.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Although the question was meant to be more general, it's easier to discern motivation by focusing on specific examples. So I'll give a couple. My puppy, at 4+ months old did not bark at someone knocking at the door or ringing the doorbell because she did not have any reason to believe it was anything other than someone new to play with. In fact at that age she had only barked a few times period. She is extremely social, and loves all people and dogs. But my neighbor directly behind me was uncharacteristically out in his yard after dark one night when I let her out for a potty break. When she saw this man standing in the dark in his yard, just a few feet from our fence she barked ferociously and advanced toward him. To me that was a perfect reaction, and protective in nature. I praised her and told her it was okay and she calmed right down. Another time I took her to watch my son's football practice, she was about 6 months old. There were 2 sets of practice going on, offence and defence, and about 15 adult coaches on the field, as well as many other parents watching. While we were watching several people approached and talked to me, and several petted her as well. At one point she started growling and barked a couple times. When I looked to see what she was reacting to, I saw that one coach was standing alone and away from the practices, and she had focused on him because he was "acting differently" than the rest. Another time I was picking my son up after a game, and there were several buses unloading, kids and coaches all around us, and she suddenly started growling very menacingly. Again, when I looked to where she was looking I saw that one parent was standing by himself about thirty feet away from anyone else, waiting for his kid presumably. But she didn't go berserk, just a low menacing growl, which stopped once I told her it was okay. Seems like protective behavior to me. 

To contrast this, at about 6 months old she was startled by a boy coming unexpectedly coming down a set of stairs behind her in our home. She was at the time greeting my son, so she didn't notice the other boy until he was right on top of her. When she did notice him, she ran! But only enough to put a little distance between them, then she turned and came back to investigate. No barking, no growling. We told her it was okay, and she came up and said hello nicely.

She has also "protected" me from a short post placed oddly in a grassy field, and a very large, but potentially menacing water valve (5' in length, at a nearby reservoir). Same type of behavior as mentioned above, and not a "real" threat, but in her mind a potential threat! No barking, but a low growl as she investigated. And that's where this whole idea of - it has to be a real threat - confuses things IMO. The thread where the dog barked at a stroller, in my mind, was similar. It was a bulky object that the puppy had not seen before. The puppy in that thread is a little skittish otherwise, but the poster mentioned that this barking was not his normal behavior. That is, he doesn't bark at anyone or anything he sees walking down the street, but the carriage was an anomaly, and so a potential threat. Granted in this case it's less clear, so seeing the dog's body language at the time would help immensely in determining what kind of reaction it was. But to completely rule out the potential of it being a protective response, based solely on the puppy's age (5 months) is not correct IMO either. 

In a general sense, IMHO protective behavior is not magically switched on at a given age and maturity. It's more of a continuum that puppies experiment with as they mature, just like other behaviors. And to complicate matters, as @Baillif said, it can and likely is a mixture of emotions in any given instance with a puppy especially!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

My 10 week old pup chased a man out of my office when he abruptly stepped over the gate. Protective? Fearful? Defense? Who really knows?

The key was I didn't want this behavior in that setting. My house at night with an intruder- absolutely! But how is a 10 week old supposed to know the difference? 

So, I tend to agree that whether a dog is being protective, or just chasing a pant leg in play/prey, or is protecting her own space and not mine, not so important and really hard to know in many cases. 

In this case, I simply couldn't have my pup doing this, and certainly not a full grown dog, so I took steps to make sure it didn't happen again. That solved the issue. 

Protective or not is really hard to tease out. More important is knowing the dog and how she's likely to react, and managing, training, appropriately. If you want the dog to retain high defense behaviors, make sure you train to a high level so you can manage it. In fact, any dog that shows "protective" behavior (whether fearful or not or whatever) should be trained and managed.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I consider Deja not protective but alert. The doorbell rings, she barks, looks at me and I tell her, "Good, I heard it too." and she is quiet. We are outside in the yard in the middle of the night, and there is a sound in the forest. She doesn't bark but walks over to the fence to check it out without barking. I have never seen her in a situation that required protection. She is highly alert but I have honestly never seen her afraid of anything or anyone so I trust her in case I need protection. To me that is perfection in temperament (very objective!  )


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Max when a pup I never needed to teach him to bark at the door. I never rewarded it just ignored it I felt If I showered him with praise i could of created a monster nut. He seems to enjoy the chaos. In the teen years teaching him whom ever few people that stood out was not a threat even if they looked like one or smelled like a threat and to ignore instead of acting on his own which required work. Max is intune with me even if I hold the bird and be nibbles to hard and I say ouch -max will charge over from where ever he is to save the day. i tell him to knock it off. settle. We had painters over a few weeks ago. i and taken the dogs for a walk with the kids when we were heading back to the house. one of the painters assistance all dressed in his painting garb running from his van into my house. Max was silent, alert,still stiff like a rock his body was like a torpedo ready to go. His face was not happy. Telling him to leave it is my que telling him to ignore it is not a concern.He is a dog that needs a job. I could not squelch his protective instincts. 

Luna is always watching the property she is still young yet not sure how protective or what she would do with a real threat. she is always alerting who ever walks by when our in the yard I then call her in. My little nephews she did not leave them out of her site she was like a mother hen. when friends or family come over she says hi and goes lie down on her own she enjoys the little kids. Max haunts friends or family with his love. When luna was a puppy their was a man who had hedge clippers- he did look like he was walking really fast towards us with the hedge clippers but he was heading to the tree in his front yard. He must of been spacing out because he looked like he was on a crazed mission towards us - she did jump to him and bark at him. I told her to leave it and we just continued on. I think puppies have a lot of sorting to do with their gifts they were given with their immature brains and need to learn how to properly react and follow what is wanted and needed from them. The dots connect as they mature.
Our first gsd would break bones you would not know it he was indifferent to it all. He had a very high threshold and was well trained.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My current thought is...children aren't allowed to make grown up decisions and shouldn't have grown up responsibilities. Same should go for puppies.
> 
> I don't think puppies ought to believe that they have to or should protect themselves or us...they are just babies...


But we don't get to determine how puppies react. We can respond to how they react by ignoring, reinforcing or punishing to try to shape a behavior, but we can't change their reaction that is often an extension of their genetic temperament.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

"To contrast this, at about 6 months old she was startled by a boy coming unexpectedly coming down a set of stairs behind her in our home. She was at the time greeting my son, so she didn't notice the other boy until he was right on top of her. When she did notice him, she ran! But only enough to put a little distance between them, then she turned and came back to investigate. No barking, no growling. We told her it was okay, and she came up and said hello nicely."

It can be iffy to assess a puppy's temperament because they are still in development, but I don't think it reflects confidence for a 6 month old pup to run when she suddenly notices someone. Care to say anything about the pedigree?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think owners of dogs who display protective behaviors need to understand that the dog is just a dog, and thinks like a dog. Dogs are bad at discerning threat from non-threat in real life. If they carry certain levels of suspicion, as many GSDs do, and malinois, they bark at stuff, and advance toward it, to test the waters. It doesn't even have to be suspicion it can just be their rote reaction. They do it because it's what they do naturally. If we don't want that, we need to control the dog- either by controlling the situation or controlling the animal. 

I think some people call this threshold, but in my experience, threshold can vary greatly depending on the situation, with the exact same dog. 

Usually, a dog that is in your sight, and will respond to your commands, is not going to get into trouble. So that is what I prioritize.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I am a person that repeatedly says that a young puppy cannot be protective. By that, I mean they are not mature enough to be reliable in discerning a threat from a non-threat, or mature enough to be counted on to back up anything we may perceive as them being protective with real, trained action. Sure, the instincts could be starting to kick in, but in my opinion, they are still too young at 4 months, 5 months or 6 months to handle training to further bring that out. 

As for some of the scenarios people describe when they say their puppy is protective... I mean, they feel the need to protect themselves, so I guess sure, they are being protective. But if you are relying on a 4 or 5 month old puppy to protect you from an actual threat, well, good luck.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I think owners of dogs who display protective behaviors need to understand that the dog is just a dog, and thinks like a dog. Dogs are bad at discerning threat from non-threat in real life. If they carry certain levels of suspicion, as many GSDs do, and malinois, they bark at stuff, and advance toward it, to test the waters. It doesn't even have to be suspicion it can just be their rote reaction. They do it because it's what they do naturally. If we don't want that, we need to control the dog- either by controlling the situation or controlling the animal.
> 
> I think some people call this threshold, but in my experience, threshold can vary greatly depending on the situation, with the exact same dog.
> 
> Usually, a dog that is in your sight, and will respond to your commands, is not going to get into trouble. So that is what I prioritize.


^^^this.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I think owners of dogs who display protective behaviors need to understand that the dog is just a dog, and thinks like a dog. Dogs are bad at discerning threat from non-threat in real life. If they carry certain levels of suspicion, as many GSDs do, and malinois, they bark at stuff, and advance toward it, to test the waters. It doesn't even have to be suspicion it can just be their rote reaction. They do it because it's what they do naturally. If we don't want that, we need to control the dog- either by controlling the situation or controlling the animal.
> 
> I think some people call this threshold, but in my experience, threshold can vary greatly depending on the situation, with the exact same dog.
> 
> Usually, a dog that is in your sight, and will respond to your commands, is not going to get into trouble. So that is what I prioritize.


Yes agreed quadruple this


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> I think owners of dogs who display protective behaviors need to understand that the dog is just a dog, and thinks like a dog. Dogs are bad at discerning threat from non-threat in real life. If they carry certain levels of suspicion, as many GSDs do, and malinois, they bark at stuff, and advance toward it, to test the waters. It doesn't even have to be suspicion it can just be their rote reaction. They do it because it's what they do naturally. If we don't want that, we need to control the dog- either by controlling the situation or controlling the animal.
> 
> I think some people call this threshold, but in my experience, threshold can vary greatly depending on the situation, with the exact same dog.
> 
> Usually, a dog that is in your sight, and will respond to your commands, is not going to get into trouble. So that is what I prioritize.


I look at what you are saying a little differently. I think individual dogs have different thresholds for different drives, but not different thresholds for a specific drive based on different situations. Defense drive is fairly complicated and the type of defense a dog has and his threshold is genetically determined. Training can help raise the topographical threshold for defense, but under severe stress, the dog will revert back to his genetic threshold. Also, there are genetically determined strong, confident forms of defensive aggression and again, the continuum graduates downhill from there. Training can help build confidence, but is usually covering up genetic faults.
I also see mistrust/natural suspicion as a separate trait, and I would say the trait has been increasingly bred out of GSDs and Mals, just like social aggression has been. The general public does not see the value of traits like mistrust and social aggression and want protective breeds to be like retrievers, which is not their heritage. Times have changed and we live in a very litigious society. Plus, a dog with some of these traits that are being bred away from requires an experienced handler, making them harder to place for people breeding primarily for sport or family pets. This dilution of working traits is the inevitable result of a breed such as the GSD becoming so popular. Also, I don't think breeders always can distinguish certains traits that are fairly similar in expression, but have different emotional states driving them. This is where people breeding who have developed their own bloodlines will be much more successful compared to someone breeding two dogs that appear to do well in the work.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> It can be iffy to assess a puppy's temperament because they are still in development, but I don't think it reflects confidence for a 6 month old pup to run when she suddenly notices someone. Care to say anything about the pedigree?


My pup's pedigree is a mixture of SL and WL, but truly nothing to write home about!

The incident I mentioned above IMO was a very reasonable response on my puppy's part. The boy, a large teenaged boy she had never seen before, appeared right next to her unnoticed - approaching from behind and standing right over her! She simply gave herself room...then turned to investigate, but not overly shook up or fearful. 

But what about the other 3 scenarios I mentioned, would you consider them as her being protective or fearful or something else?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> I am a person that repeatedly says that a young puppy cannot be protective. By that, I mean they are not mature enough to be reliable in discerning a threat from a non-threat, or mature enough to be counted on to back up anything we may perceive as them being protective with real, trained action. Sure, the instincts could be starting to kick in, but in my opinion, they are still too young at 4 months, 5 months or 6 months to handle training to further bring that out.
> 
> As for some of the scenarios people describe when they say their puppy is protective... I mean, they feel the need to protect themselves, so I guess sure, they are being protective. But if you are relying on a 4 or 5 month old puppy to protect you from an actual threat, well, good luck.


Here, as in much of the reading I've done on the subject, 2 very different things are being lumped together. The motivation for behavior has no action requirement! Of course a 4-5 month old puppy is unlikely to ever follow through and protect. Nor would a sane person expect or want them to. But the motivation can still be protective in nature, no? A puppy protecting themselves, or feeling like they have to, is defensive or fear based, not protective IMO.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Chip I like this to. a good thread


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> My pup's pedigree is a mixture of SL and WL, but truly nothing to write home about!
> 
> The incident I mentioned above IMO was a very reasonable response on my puppy's part. The boy, a large teenaged boy she had never seen before, appeared right next to her unnoticed - approaching from behind and standing right over her! She simply gave herself room...then turned to investigate, but not overly shook up or fearful.
> 
> But what about the other 3 scenarios I mentioned, would you consider them as her being protective or fearful or something else?


What matters most is probably your relationship with your dog. I asked about the pedigree and your comments support my suspicions. I am very particular about nerves in the breed and think it is a big issue even in some of the working lines because sport does not really test nerves except at a minimal level. I am not saying your dog is a nerve bag or anything derogatory about him. I do think people make excuses (not saying you) about their dog's nerves and turn a blind eye sometimes.
Re: the situations where your dog growled, keep in mind that is classic defensive posturing where a dog is worried and hopes the growling will chase the perceived threat away.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Here, as in much of the reading I've done on the subject, 2 very different things are being lumped together. The motivation for behavior has no action requirement! Of course a 4-5 month old puppy is unlikely to ever follow through and protect. Nor would a sane person expect or want them to. But the motivation can still be protective in nature, no? A puppy protecting themselves, or feeling like they have to, is defensive or fear based, not protective IMO.


I think it is far more likely, unless you have a puppy that comes from extremely civil parents with high defense AND strong nerves, that what most people think of as an instinct to protect THEM is either fear, or resource guarding. At least at 4-6 months old. 

With the situations you described with your puppy, for example... a 6 month old puppy growling at an adult for standing away from the crowd, but not acting in a suspicious or threatening manner, does not indicate the puppy being protective of his people, in my opinion. To me, that sounds like a puppy who is a bit unsure of his surroundings. Could be slightly weaker nerves, could turn out to be nothing as the puppy matures. But I would not consider that situation an example of your puppy showing the instinct to protect.

And we need to be careful not to lump fear and defense into the same category. Defense is so multi-faceted and complex, and should not be confused with what we typically think of as fear. The right dog with high defense and the nerve strength to back it up is anything but fearful.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What matters most is probably your relationship with your dog. I asked about the pedigree and your comments support my suspicions. I am very particular about nerves in the breed and think it is a big issue even in some of the working lines because sport does not really test nerves except at a minimal level. I am not saying your dog is a nerve bag or anything derogatory about him. I do think people make excuses (not saying you) about their dog's nerves and turn a blind eye sometimes.
> Re: the situations where your dog growled, keep in mind that is classic defensive posturing where a dog is worried and hopes the growling will chase the perceived threat away.


Yes. Thank you. Posturing does not equal protecting.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> But what about the other 3 scenarios I mentioned, would you consider them as her being protective or fearful or something else?


Sounds more like fear based reactivity to me. 

I personally wouldn't console the dog it may be seen as a reward for the behavior. I'd probably use my leave it command to tell the dog that this is something that should be ignored instead, then let her take her cues from me that this is OK to be calm and relaxed


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A few years ago new neighbors moved in behind us. He was an adult gsd and at the time there was an area in the fence that he could squeeze through. as I was shoveling my backyard patio. he came in and would growl at me and bark. I could tell the dog was scared and did not mind him. I just continued to shovel and he would just watch and he went away. In the beginning they let him loose all the time at first he barked at my dad in the driveway just a wave and a stomp forward sent him running away. The dog had bit their own kid in the face the dog had lots issues.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

My understanding of "protection" is to keep something or someone safe from harm. Assuming we are discussing protection from other people or animals, there is really only one way that a dog can achieve this, and that is through _aggression. _

Considering the well researched links between hormones and aggressive behavior across many species... I personally wouldn't consider any behavior to be stemming from true protective instincts until the pup has hit sexual maturity. 

Then I would expect to see it wax and wane. A little inkling of it here and there. Ever changing as the pup hits adolescent fear periods, as it gains mental maturity and as it gains more life experience. It won't be reliable until adulthood.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> I think owners of dogs who display protective behaviors need to understand that the dog is just a dog, and thinks like a dog. Dogs are bad at discerning threat from non-threat in real life. If they carry certain levels of suspicion, as many GSDs do, and malinois, they bark at stuff, and advance toward it, to test the waters. It doesn't even have to be suspicion it can just be their rote reaction. They do it because it's what they do naturally. If we don't want that, we need to control the dog- either by controlling the situation or controlling the animal.
> 
> I think some people call this threshold, but in my experience, threshold can vary greatly depending on the situation, with the exact same dog.
> 
> Usually, a dog that is in your sight, and will respond to your commands, is not going to get into trouble. So that is what I prioritize.


This really rings true for me. Very much how I deal with my dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GypsyGhost said:


> I am a person that repeatedly says that a young puppy cannot be protective. By that, I mean they are not mature enough to be reliable in discerning a threat from a non-threat, or mature enough to be counted on to back up anything we may perceive as them being protective with real, trained action. Sure, the instincts could be starting to kick in, but in my opinion, they are still too young at 4 months, 5 months or 6 months to handle training to further bring that out.
> 
> As for some of the scenarios people describe when they say their puppy is protective... I mean, they feel the need to protect themselves, so I guess sure, they are being protective. But if you are relying on a 4 or 5 month old puppy to protect you from an actual threat, well, good luck.


Well and also what I was trying to say earlier kind of goes along with this: I do think they kind of know what we expect from them and they definitely notice what makes us happy or proud...and if someone unwittingly makes an insecure puppy think that it should be protecting them, I feel like that is going to cause problems down the road because again, responsibility that the pup really isn't ready for and it's potentially getting ideas and practicing them with a baby brain that aren't good ideas...

What Chip said about we can only respond to what the puppy did yes I guess so, once, but that may set the tone for months to come, one way or the other...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It is so much easier to say what protective behavior isn't, than to state clearly what it is. Most of the documents I've found on the subject, and most discussions I've seen here and elsewhere online approach it this way as well. But in my mind that's because (a) there is this all-powerful tendency to link motivation with action, and (b) there are serious issues caused by dogs who've been considered by their owner to be protective when in fact they're fearful. Whether a dog is protective, defensive, or fearful (And I am in no way suggesting these are in a single category, or related), if a dog is acting aggressively they need to be carefully managed and trained (or even medicated in some cases), that's a given! 

But I still find this subject both fascinating and allusive. My understanding is that body language plays a HUGE roll in determining the motivation for any given behavior, and obviously a short description of an event online leaves that critical info out. Especially with a puppy, it's even more complicated, because IMO very few actions are singularly motivated. They're developing and testing and learning...if deciphering this were easy anybody could do it >

It would be awesome to hear descriptions from folks on what actual protective behavior in a puppy looks like!

That being said, I'm happy with my dog's temperment. But she did show very classic protective behavior at a young age, so I'm concerned as well. An overprotective dog is a HUGE liability! For now I'm comtinuing to focus on strong recall and leave it commands, and guiding her toward the behavior I want to see...


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

What do you plan on doing to encourage or nourish this behavior. Is training a part of it. I would think these instincts would need to be properly channeled and worked. Even the best dogs benefit from personalized training customized to their specific drives and purposes.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I’ve only ever seen my girl growl once, and it was at a man who was sitting on a bench with a hat on, legs spread and head down with his hands clasped in his lap. She was about 6 months at the time. She hackled, tried to run up to him while growling, and I immediately stopped the behaviour by telling her leave it and ignoring the guy. He was just waiting for someone and was startled by her. 

I attribute that behaviour to fear. She was probably worried about his intentions and wasn’t sure about what he would do. 

I guess some could look at it and consider it defensive, but I don’t. He wasn’t looking at us, he was just sitting there doing his thing. No true threat in my opinion.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I don't do protection work with my dogs, never have, so I am not coming from experience in that aspect. But I've owned, fostered, worked with and trained many, many dogs. The ones who I respected the most have been the ones who do not bark, who stand confidently, do not hackle, who make eye contact with their body poised forward. I do not view most dogs that bark and lunge as protective. Barking is often a fear tactic, the dog is scared so tries to chase the threat off. Same with putting up hackles. Not always, I'm not trying to create a debate on all things body language. But when I am presented with an untrained gsd who is hackles up barking and lunging at me, if I take a quick stomp towards it and say a firm 'HEY', so far 100% of these dogs take off, turn and face me at a safe distance and continue barking. 
What I view as sound nerves in a puppy are confident, watchful, does not spook or bark and jump away from anything that is non threatening. A pup that is happy, loves its people, is non chalant about nearby dogs and bumbles through life like a nice puppy.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

But isn't all protection based on fear... even us humans only protect out of fear, because we are scared something will be taken from us.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> It would be awesome to hear descriptions from folks on what actual protective behavior in a puppy looks like!


Define "puppy".

Puppies are not protective. An adolescent dog - maybe. 

My 10 month old bit an assaulter. It looked like a skinny black dog with a wonky ear jumping out my car window and making a bloody mess. 



> But she did show very classic protective behavior at a young age,


Very doubtful what you were seeing was "protective behavior". Still sounds like unsure puppy stuff.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

KaiserAus said:


> But isn't all protection based on fear... even us humans only protect out of fear, because we are scared something will be taken from us.


 not really. As a bizarre for instance - think of a cop that jumps in to protect an 80 year old lady from being strangled by her 80 year old husband, probably vice versa ? I doubt that cop is fearful at the time. What you're thinking of is fight or flight responses. That can be applied to fear bites or defensive bites but not a dog that's being protective. A fear based dog will run away if he sees the opportunity. The only reason he's biting in that situation is he doesn't see a way out. Either he feels he can't physically escape or could be worried about losing rank or something. So say you're walking down a dark alley and an attacker hits you head on, the dog bites shallow and unsure just until he sees the attention isn't on him and he safely escapes and leaves you on your own.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

thegooseman90 said:


> not really. As a bizarre for instance - think of a cop that jumps in to protect an 80 year old lady from being strangled by her 80 year old husband, probably vice versa ? I doubt that cop is fearful at the time. What you're thinking of is fight or flight responses. That can be applied to fear bites or defensive bites but not a dog that's being protective. A fear based dog will run away if he sees the opportunity. The only reason he's biting in that situation is he doesn't see a way out. Either he feels he can't physically escape or could be worried about losing rank or something. So say you're walking down a dark alley and an attacker hits you head on, the dog bites shallow and unsure just until he sees the attention isn't on him and he safely escapes and leaves you on your own.


Yes you're right. I hadn't thought about cops and fireman etc - but really aren't cops/fireman/service people who are willing to risk their lives for other a breed of their own?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I was thinking about this thread and it reminded me of this young kid I coached for his first year in youth football. He was a very good football player. Athletic, smart, accurate throws. A very good QB for us. We lost one game that year. His next three years in youth football he got moved to another team. He was as expected their qb. This team Always lost. Just not a good team. Lots of talent bad coaching. So I got the kid back his last year before 8th grade football. I remembered the kids natural talent so I was stoked to have him. Until our first practice. The kid was bad. No game smarts, throws were off, couldn't remember plays, fumbled handoffs, the basic fundamentals were gone. he could scramble and still had speed but bad coaching had set him back to a point where he was worse than a first year player. So I went back to my QB from the year prior. This kid didn't have half of the other kids natural talent. But, he had the proper coaching and wound up a lot better player. 
Anyway I guess all of this was just to illustrate the fact that natural talent/drive is only as good as the coaching/training to bring it to its full potential. If you want your dog to be a protector. Find a competent trainer and nourish, and develop what your dog has. Otherwise when the time comes you may see how good of a scrambler your dog is.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The more I read the more confused I get I know fear brings on an adrenaline rush which people like police fire people and military, surgeons people who work in the emergency room can take that and channel it for a brave act. I?m sure training is a big part of it to be perfected but one has to be capable to do this period . Same with dogs I would imagine and why pups are immature and adrenaline surges can not be channeled and can not call it protective.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I had a king Charles pup completely different breed but I remember her barking her little head off at a friend in the snow at a distance. A few times she sounded tough but It did not mean much to me normal puppy stuff. She grew up to be dead calm and steady Eddie . not much phased her at all. No protective or instincts or watch dog skills and not expected. She was not fearful or a spook. I would open the front door and have to shove her out of the way of the front door when entering the house because she still remain asleep. She did alert us to someone who was trying to get into our truck though.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Huh? Puppies aren't protective. They are young and bark because they are unsure. Bark to scare the thing causing fear. A little pressure on a puppy and it tucks tail. Maybe bites out of fear. 
The puppies you see in videos biting are working in prey.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

cloudpump said:


> Huh? Puppies aren't protective. They are young and bark because they are unsure. Bark to scare the thing causing fear. A little pressure on a puppy and it tucks tail. Maybe bites out of fear.
> The puppies you see in videos biting are working in prey.


Ahhh, but many dogs that have high prey will not venture forth into their prey when they encounter a threat. So what differentiates the dog in prey that will venture forward from the dogs in prey that won’t. Drives channel in and out in terms of dominance for dogs depending on the circumstances and reliant on the dogs’s nerve strength. Prey and defense drives are very seldom exclusive in this breed, and when they are the dog is extreme. But a very solid nerved puppy can summon up protection instincts, they just aren’t fully developed or mature enough to sustain them against overwhelming situation. Case in point, you have 6 month old pups ( and a lot of older dogs) that will let you beat them into total submission, even death without fighting back; but you also have six month old pups that will accept physical on unfair treatment from owner until they feel their life is threatened or that it is unfair and they will fight back at a certain threshold. The second are protecting themselves in defense instead of total submission.....whether it is out of fear is immaterial, the act of defending themself ultimately reflects a protection instinct. The former behavior of complete submission is a form of defense also, but not one desirable for our breed for development into breed standards.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One other thing for thought, if you have a six month old puppy say at night reacting to stranger or strange noises; let’s look at different pictures,
One pup is standing there with hair up from tip of tail to head, their tail is tucked under or held low, their ears are laid back, they are slightly backing up, and pup no. 2, the pup has his tail held up straight, the hair is raised on nape of the neck, the ears are forward, and the pup is slowly going forward or leaning forward......do you think those two pups both lack protective traits?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Traits, yeah. As a puppy though, I don't think they know exactly whats going on. They're still trying to figure it all out.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Self preservation and actually protecting one’s owner are two different things. Protecting one’s owner is not a survival instinct. It is something else. I don’t think protecting one’s self and protecting one’s owner come from the same place, or should be lumped together. That’s like saying all dogs that eat instead of starving to death have great food drive.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Protection, in its essence, is an altruistic behavior. It stems from cooperative pack behaviors. I don't see much of a connection between self defensive behavior and natural protection instincts. Is a puppy that is showing so called protective instincts doing it with the motivation to protect the pack or to protect itself? Big big difference IMHO. 

Also... what are we considering a "puppy" for the purpose of this discussion?

The OP mentioned 4 and 5 month old puppies. Another poster asked a hypothetical about 6 month old pups.

Just from a biological standpoint there is a huge difference between a 4 month old and a 6 month old. 6 months marks the onset of sexual maturity, surges in hormones cause bravado. In wild canids, this is the age where pups would begin to accompany the pack on hunts, when those cooperative pack behaviors really start to develop. 

I stand by what I said before, puppies (dogs that have not hit puberty yet) do not show protective instincts. Self defensive instincts - sure, but they aren't going to stick their neck out for anyone. You will start to see inklings of what the dog has protective instinct wise sometime during _adolescence_. It will develop in peaks and valleys until they reach both sexual and mental maturity then even out to what is hopefully a confident, discerning, protective dog by adulthood based on genetics and experience.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It is very difficult to separate action from motivation isn't it? Body language is the key. 

To be clear, I never said anywhere in this thread that I WANT my little puppy to protect anything, or even to grow up to protect anything. I simply said she's shown protective behaviors. And that began around 4-5 months of age. It's even more obvious now...

I know it's an ego thing with lots of people to have a dog that's the great protector...I'm not that way. Nearly 60 and I have never needed protection from anything...ever. Having a dog that is too protective is a liability...I'm still deciding what to do about it...my goal was to have a pet/companion that can go with me anywhere; we're still working toward that goal.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> One other thing for thought, if you have a six month old puppy say at night reacting to stranger or strange noises; let’s look at different pictures,
> One pup is standing there with hair up from tip of tail to head, their tail is tucked under or held low, their ears are laid back, they are slightly backing up, and pup no. 2, the pup has his tail held up straight, the hair is raised on nape of the neck, the ears are forward, and the pup is slowly going forward or leaning forward......do you think those two pups both lack protective traits?


Somehow I misread lack as show. Thats what I meant by trait. Showing traits, but maybe showing a lack of something at the same time. Time will tell.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> \ Nearly 60 and I have never needed protection from anything...*ever*.


Your poor mother! It must have been quite a feat to birth a full grown man.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Tim could you elaborate on these protective traits that your dog has been showing since 4-5 months? My pup has never shown what I'd consider protective traits, herding maybe with my 1 year old. She's still a shaky walker and he doesn't like her near the glass tables. He has however shown what id consider to be fear based aggression which I don't particularly care for. I'd rather him tuck tail and run away. He does this primarily at night when something bangs into the fence but he will do it during the day too for the same reason. Most the time the neighbors directly behind me are playing in the yard with their kids or entertaining guests and it seems there's always something being thrown against the fenced. But he has done this before even as young as 14 weeks at his first vet appointment. And that time he was lunging and snarling at some poor old man. The one thing that stands out was earlier when it was differentiated in the way they hackle. He does hackle during this but as described earlier it's only the neck and his tail is high in the air. Not head to tail with tail tucked. I always figured it was the same. Anyway just wondering if there's some similarity between our dogs that I've overlooked.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> Your poor mother! It must have been quite a feat to birth a full grown man.


Maybe Tim was just a bad swear word baby?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GypsyGhost said:


> Self preservation and actually protecting one’s owner are two different things. Protecting one’s owner is not a survival instinct. It is something else. I don’t think protecting one’s self and protecting one’s owner come from the same place, or should be lumped together. That’s like saying all dogs that eat instead of starving to death have great food drive.


I’m sorry, I thought the thread was about protective behavior, as opposed to protecting owner vs self. I was trying to illuminate protective behavior, it seems once again I’m in the wrong area.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> I’m sorry, I thought the thread was about protective behavior, as opposed to protecting owner vs self. I was trying to illuminate protective behavior, it seems once again I’m in the wrong area.


Perhaps I read the OP incorrectly, but when the behavior being described was a puppy placing itself between a perceived threat and their person, I took that to mean the OP was asking about a puppy protecting its owner, not itself.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Somehow I misread lack as show. Thats what I meant by trait. Showing traits, but maybe showing a lack of something at the same time. Time will tell.


It’s been my experience that certain traits consistently develop into certain behaviors. That’s why I always bred for certain traits,( like solid nerves), and shied away from certain traits, ( like weak nerves), now if I had known that you have to wait until traits develop to see what you have, then I would have bred to the dogs I liked with weak nerves and waited to see what they developed into.
Anyway, it’s all semantics, and everybody is right!&#55357;&#56842;


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> It’s been my experience that certain traits consistently develop into certain behaviors. That’s why I always bred for certain traits,( like solid nerves), and shied away from certain traits, ( like weak nerves), now if I had known that you have to wait until traits develop to see what you have, then I would have bred to the dogs I liked with weak nerves and waited to see what they developed into.
> Anyway, it’s all semantics, and everybody is right!��


So you'll procure and broker a dog at 6mos? Not wait till they're older?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> So you'll procure and broker a dog at 6mos? Not wait till they're older?


I’m not sure what you are asking, are you asking have I or would I procure a dog at six months for LE work or protection behavior as the OP inquired? The answer would be certainly and I have at six months. More than once. 
Now if you are asking if I would procure a six month pup to perform at six months....then the answer is no. But I have never said a six month pup could perform like an adult, in fact in my post I made sure to say they could show protective traits commensurate with their age or development. 
You see, I READ the original post as inquiring about a 5/6 month pup having protective behavior, not a six month pup performing at an adult or trained level. People have been inserting adult results as necessary to have protective traits. I have found that pups that demonstrate protective traits at this age, consistently turn into protective adults with and without training. 
But it is possible that I am mistaking protective behavior for just bluffing and bluster....anyway, if so I hope to continue to be lucky in my assessments.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'll just wish you continued luck then too and go back to what Tim posted.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just my un expert opinion here Tim, but I think you can see drives and different traits, behaviors that will match whatever pieces or types of aggression, however you want to describe that in a puppy. You can see confidence , but you can't see for sure if they have the nerve strength to go along with those drives or pieces of whatever. I generally look at protection, specific to that word, as a trained behavior.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This thread was about protective behaviors, or more accurately about understanding the motivation behind certain behaviors, not protection work or actions. I mentioned before in another thread that I was thinking of having my pup evaluated for PP training, but only because I want to make sure she can be controlled because her protective nature concerns me. I don't want a PPD, too much maintenance and I have no need.

But her nerves, Steve, are pretty solid. Fireworks, gunfire, big trucks, storms, crowds and other loud noises mean nothing to her, and I've been beating her about the head and shoulders while playing tug since she was pretty little > 

I have a friend who has been training LE dogs for over 35 yrs, and she thinks very highly of my dog and her personality/temperment.

But again, not the focus of the thread...

I take my dog frequently to strip malls and other stores, parks etc., and she's fine with people walking by, even pushing large, loud cartloads of goods. She's not reactive or fearful, and her body language says she's totally relaxed on these outings. She is exceptionally calm and clear headed for a puppy, now 11 months almost, and I'm reasonably sure she's going to be a fine dog. I'm also very sure she has strong protective traits, though she's not at all neurotic about it. There have only been a handful of times that she's growled at people, and IMO always reasonably as they were where they shouldn't have been, or lurking suspiciously (especially that coach!). Her posture during these events says it all, tail up, weight on the front feet, hackles up on the shoulder/neck. She's not afraid and she's not loud...she's menacing. Clearly not a show of bravado. 

But I could be misreading...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I was revisiting this thread today and thought maybe it was a good time for an update. My dog is almost 5 yrs old, and yes, quite protective. She also exhibits, and always has, really good discernment. By that I mean, anyone can approach me or her in a non threatening manner and she's not the least bit bothered by it at all.

She's accepting of anyone I invite into my yard or house, is not bothered by anyone doing nearly anything while out on walks.

As a puppy, she was a social butterfly. Had to say hi to everyone! When she hit 9 months her aloof gene kicked in and she just stopped saying hi to anyone while outside, but would still greet anyone invited into the yard or our home.

She's essentially not bothered by anything, she watches fireworks with me, she's more relaxed around semis and other heavy equipment than I am, and has no problems milling about in a crowd.

If I don't like you, she doesn't either. But she's never shown any inappropriate aggression toward anyone. She has been aggressive toward a few people appropriately, but no bites.

Anyway, IMHO she's grown into her early puppy protective behavior quite nicely!

ETA: PS: I miss cliff!


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## Mariam (May 1, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> In another thread on this forum I suggested that a 5 month old puppy was being protective, and was told by several other forum members that it could not be because the puppy was too young. Now, I understand that a lot of people mistake fear behavior as being protective, and in many cases this leads to problems. However, my puppy at 4 months old was exhibiting very classic protective behavior by standing between me and strangers. She would also bark and advance on perceived threats. Now this latter, the barking, is not really considered protective depending on who you listen to, but my 90 lb bitch who is no longer with us did the same thing, and she was not fearful. So, if barking at a perceived threat is not protective, even when done by an adult dog who is unafraid, what is it? Is the definition of protective behavior so narrow that only the act of protecting qualifies, and even then only when the dog is being quiet as some of the literature on the subject suggests? And does a behavior count as protective only when the dog can fully back it up? If so, how can a dog be overprotective? And how can a puppy show any behavior other than fear? Please enlighten me!


Your dog was protecting . I have never had a gsd that did not naturally stand between me and a stranger when we were walking also they all pushed me to the inside of the sidewalk away from the street , they walked on the outside closer to the street . They were never trained to do that , it’s a natural instinct I am guessing since I have had all mine do it . Also If someone gets excited and starts coming over saying omg what a beautiful dog my Elijah warns them not to come to our side of the street . Now I just bought an import from Germany last year and she is only brave when another dog comes around or my male is around in her own she does not seem very confident . The neighbor loves my dogs but has just talked to them through the fence , they start barking and fe teases them thinking they like that game but stuck his hand in my fence one day and the female bit him . He wasn’t hurt but I asked him to stop doing it that .


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So the reality of things is that no one knows how far their dog will go to protect them unless they are tested under realistic conditions.

Thankfully, the presence of a GSD is typically thought deterrent to ward off all but the most serious of threats.

Unless you have experience training or handling dogs in bite work, which includes actual pressure on the dog, you can't really understand what those things look like. I'm not trying to be condescending at all here. I'm also not trying to diminish anyone's opinion of their dog. It's just like saying that a person that talks a good game is a good fighter. One thing has little to do with the other. A dog that wants to fight you doesn't bark first without frustration. It uses every advantage to win the fight.

What it takes to evaluate a dog and its potential motivation and reaction is experience. Some really scary acting.dogs crumble under pressure. Some really calm dogs fight like crazy and love every minute of it.

You don't really know until you see the dog under real pressure. The more real the pressure,
the more you know.

Again, thankfully, real protection is rarely needed in the civilian world. A good deterrent if usually enough to ward off a potential threat, and most GSDs will provide that deterrent.

ETA: I know this is a huge can of worms and I mean no offense to anyone. I know that many people believe that their dog will protect them and I mean no disrespect.

And I miss Cliff too!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It's all I want or expect! I'm quite happy with her discernment mainly, she is just not bothered by anything normal.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's all I want or expect! I'm quite happy with her discernment mainly, she is just not bothered by anything normal.


I think that is a sign of a good dog. I also think that your realistic view of the situation is great!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Interesting discussion, thanks Tim for the update and bringing this thread back to life! I agree with the concept that we can talk about protective behaviors even if we don’t know the dogs motivation behind it. Some dogs have it, some don’t. Right now there is a belief in the pet training world that every behavior stems from fear, insecurity and reactivity and has to be counter conditioned with treats etc. It’s not always the case.

Real protection? I think everyone who could have something to say about it is gone from this board except David, and he’s obviously correct and knows what he talks about.


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