# Puppy coming home Friday and I have a akc question



## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

We are having a new GSD flying in on Friday. We already have a Female Elsa we bought her from Vom Haus Miller in Spring Green Wisconsin. We just now ready to start working her. She will be getting her hips checked next week and she is 2.5 yrs old. 

We are buying a Male puppy that is a showline Dog Elsa is a Workline dog. I hope I am saying this right we are still learning. 

Here is what I know abour the puppy, 

His mother is the daughter of the World Class Seiger Roger Arminius
line, her
mother is SG Babs von ArminiusWest German Showline, his father is
West German
Showline with some East German and Czech. There is no American
lines in these
puppies at all. The mother has the tattoo in her ear, but not the
father. Any
form of training or showing would be excellent as long as the shows don't
require AKC registration. The father is the grandson of Mick vom
Wolf Cimmerian
that breeds only for Homeland Security, prior to that, the Cimmerian
line came
from the Michigan State troopers and has East German and Czech lines
which were
imported. The father comes from several world champion police
dogs....all of
them can be seen if you click on his pedigree link.

I was told the puppy can not be registered with AKC because her mom was a rescued GSD. Does this mean I am out of being able to do anything with our new little boy?

Here is a picture of our new little boy

http://http://shannonsshepherds.blogspot.com/2011/03/seven-weeks.html

Our puppy is the second from the bottom. What do you think? We think he is a keeper for sure.

Thanks everyone,
Pamela


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

If they don't have AKC papers for the mother, then no, the puppies cannot be registered. You can still do Schutzhund with the dog, he will just be listed as a mix. And you can get an ILP number with AKC and compete at AKC trials (obedience, agility, etc.) but not show him.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I did not follow all of that very well. 

If the dam is not registerable with the AKC, then the puppies would not be either. 

You can get companion event titles on your dog if you neuter him and get a PAL number from the AKC. My current AKC obedience dog is a rescue. She is spayed and registered as a PAL dog with AKC. We are working on obed, tracking and agility. If you desire to do those things, then it is possible. Conformation showing would not be an option.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think the link doesnt work


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

It's sad because the Mother was registered but the owner never gave the Rescue any info. They tried to get all the info from the akc but could not.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Both of the parents are registered with AKC but the mother was never registered to the new owners, The new owners must have been a little rough because Brandi our puppies mother was rescued by our puppies family . The original breeder contacted AKC in attempts to 
change the registration over to the family we are buying the puppy from, but AKC stated that their policy would not 
allow it even though Brandi had been in a rescue situation and her breeder was 
requesting it. I wish I could help out the Breeder of our new puppy and some how get the AKC to except our puppy and her Mother. 

If anyone can help with this I would love to know what to do.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Not sure why they bred an unregistered dog on the first place but what difference does it make if you can get an ILP?


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

It just happend she said, They have been great to work with, I am so happy to work with them. She has 5 GSD and they love GSD so I am happy we found them. I will have to look into the ILP.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

I think we have to neuter him for sure. We are afraid for Elsa she is a work line dog and he is a show line. How do we keep them away for now until we decide what to do?


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

LoveMyDogs said:


> I think we have to neuter him for sure. We are afraid for Elsa she is a work line dog and he is a show line. How do we keep them away for now until we decide what to do?


Elsa is not spayed I am assuming, so it's purely management. Crate and rotate during her heat cycle. 

As for registration, nothing you can do. PAL is the best best, as stated by a couple others.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Shannons Shepherds

Corrected the link. They say they are not breeders on their about us page - yet they breed. They have 5 GSDs, some rescued some not. Apparently not rescued from any good rescue group as they would have been altered and not allowed to be bred. Wonder why the dam, Brandi, was rescued in the first place and why they deem her breedable when she was rescued and not registerable?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

spiritsmom said:


> They say they are not breeders on their about us page - yet they breed.


Yeah, I don't get that at all, but I've seen other BYBs say the same thing. Wonder what they think a breeder IS if not someone who breeds?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Confused also......?
Are they offering puppies "at no cost or fee"??
*They state that they are not breeders.....yet they "breed" litters of puppies...?
*They have a "sales contract"....but they are not breeders...?
*They "breed" unregistered, rescue dogs....for a profit...but they do not consider themselves breeders....?
*They only "have litters" because they love their dogs and the GSD breed....?
Are they a non for profit (not breeder) of the GSD?
IMO...if you "breed" an animal and get "offspring"...you have now become a "breeder" of such animal.....

...see...I'm confused too....I just don't understand.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Confused also......?
> Are they offering puppies "at no cost or fee"??
> *They state that they are not breeders.....yet they "breed" litters of puppies...?
> *They have a "sales contract"....but they are not breeders...?
> ...


Yeah, I don't quite get it either...



LoveMyDogs said:


> It's sad because the Mother was registered but the owner never gave the Rescue any info. They tried to get all the info from the akc but could not.


If the rescue never got any info how did they get the registered name? 

I guess the AKC might be able to release that if provided enough info but how do you know that pedigree goes to that dog (the one that was bred)?

I agree with the previous posters that if the breeder doesn't have the females AKC papers - even if she is AKC - you cannot register your dog except through ILP/PAL

http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

So actual good reputable breeders don't love their dogs or the GSD breed?.......
You breed your dogs and purposefully (or not) produce a litter = you are a breeder.
Breeding rescued dogs plus dogs without health clearances is no better than buying that puppy off of craigslist.

Father will not even be two until August.......
The mother is registered with AKC (if that is really her), if the owner has contact with the breeder, the breeder should be able to reorder the papers. Something’s just not right about this part of the story......


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Ok, this "non-breeder" does not appear to do any kind of health testing of their "mommy" and "daddy" dogs yet :



> We strongly recommend that you have the dog OFA Certified at or before the age of TWO (2) years. Testing and x-rays must confirm any of these defects by a licensed veterinarian. We will replace the dog as soon as possible with a replacement of equal value at the time of purchase. We reserve the right to request that the testing and x-rays be sent to us first for review by a board certified radiologist of our choice. Should the buyer prefer to retain the said dog, the buyer thereby forfeits any replacement, unless other arrangements are mutually agree upon.


Oh, I see why they don't consider themselves breeders:



> We are not breeders and our dogs do not live in kennels.


because they said so and obviously do no own a dictionary.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

there's another thread going on this..apparently the father is 1.5 years old puppies are 500 plus 300 to ship The mother is NOT akc reg'd therefore no puppies can be akc reg'd...Also states these puppies are NOT for breeding, companions only.

With that said, you cannot breed this dog, you must neuter him in order to get an ILP via akc. He is NOT registerable, nor any offspring of his would be. The father is only 1.5, so no hip/elbow evaluation. 

I don't understand why you are "afraid" for your female elsa??? Neuter the male at 6 months, keep her separated from him if she goes into heat. 

Personally, this would not be someone I would even think of buying a puppy from doesn't matter how much they "love" their dogs which I am not disputing. 

As for the OP wanting to breed in the future, I highly recommend you start educating yourself in regards to breeding, maybe find a GOOD breeder you could mentor under. 
To even consider buying a puppy like this for breeding purposes, tells me you need to really do some research


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

At least the father is 1.5 years old.

Sin's breeder breeds 11 month olds.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

OP, I seriously suggest you go else where.

This is a really bad choice.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Is it all right to ask about this --- quote "...Mick vom Wolf Cimmerian that breeds only for Homeland Security, prior to that , the Cimmerian line came from the Michigan State Troopers and has East German and Czech ..."

what? Mick the dog is an exclusive stud for Homeland Security ? or Cimmerian the breeding-kennel only breeds for Homeland Security , and then Cimmerian provided for Michigan State or utilized dogs in service for breeding purposes?

On the other related thread - should I breed a non akc reg dog one of the sites, the Miller site I believe has a confusing statement about a male. In one place I understand the dog in question to be a working police dog at the Miller's place for schutzhund training , in another place the suggestion is the dog is there to get his Sch H 1 title at which point he will be turned over to this department.
What is the purpose of that? Why take a dog out of service for a title -- or why get the title taking away valuable "street" time from working service.

If I got everything wrong I admit today it is possible. Very busy. Only checking in on forum while taking coffee break.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

We are going to look at puppies from another breeder.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm glad your looking around, if you post your location in the "choosing a breeder" forum, you may get some references for breeders in your area.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Probably a good choice on your part. "Nice" is perhaps not the highest criteria for a person breeding. There are all sorts of people producing German Shepherds. Many are nice people, but few have the knowledge and experience I would want behind the production of the pups. There is no testing for this. Anyone can put two GSDs together. I see it a lot.


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