# Choosing a GSD as a Service Dog?



## Thecowboysgirl

In light of recent posts on here, and everything going on currently with SDs, I wanted to try and compile an information thread to help anyone considering buying a puppy to owner-train as a medical service dog. I was not sure what to call this thread so /i welcome mods to change the title if you can think of something more appropriate.

Here are some topics I wanted to discuss and try and compile in one place for future reference:

-How to choose a breeder to obtain a SD prospect puppy?

#1 Find a breeder who has produced dogs before that are currently working as the type of dog you need
#2 Breeder must at minimum be testing hips and elbows through OFA, Pennhip, or dogs that were rated in Germany (help me out I don't know what you call the German hip/elbow ratings)
#3 Breeder actively working their dogs in some venue and meets all other qualifications of a "reputable breeder"
#4 Anyone who is aware of breeders who meet these criteria, maybe you could list them in this thread for future people? 

-What do you need a Service Dog for? If you are choosing a GSD for PTSD or anxiety, have you considered that they are not always the best breed for this type of work? What will you do with your dog if it does not succeed as a SD?

-What experience do you have with dog training? If you are not very experienced with this breed and with dog training, you will almost certainly need professional help and guidance to achieve what you want/need with your dog. If you don't have or can't afford professional help then I recommend choosing an easier breed---like a Golden, meeting the same criteria as above for breeder. Or applying to a reputable org for a trained dog.

-What are the qualifications of a decent service dog trainer? What comes to mind for me are:
#1 someone who is associated with, or has been associated with in the past, or has worked for or learned from a reputable service dog organization
#2 Someone who has produced multiple trained, working, service dogs who are successful in their career.
#3 ??? help me out here guys

-Have you read the "landshark" threads on this forum---and are you able to raise a GSD puppy despite your disability?

What else, guys? If someone is disabled and wants to buy a puppy to owner train---what should they know or consider ahead of time?


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## WIBackpacker

This isn't specific to service dog work, but a general comment that might apply.

I don't think enough people have conversations about _longevity_ in their dogs. Are the granddams/grandsires living to a nice old age? Healthy and active beyond age 8?


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## konathegsd

Thank you for posing this. People need to be aware of choosing a gsd when they have bad anxiety and ptsd. We chose a gsd for mobility and medical alert, but if it was for psych a golden or lab would be a better fit.


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## Jenny720

A great thread. Interesting I know nothing about services dogs but I would want a gsd if ever needed. I can see how it would be more of a challenging to find the right gsd. I do not know much about service dogs except how helpful they are. To get back to health though I know health insurance is very important to have for service dogs or any dog or cat. Medical expenses can be very expensive if something came up. It saved me much worry down the line. Do working dogs service dogs, sars, police dogs have a special dog insurance for or is it an expense that can be deducted it would be helpful. What kind of test do they do for a puppy for service dog prospect - what would stand out to say yes this is a good prospect to use as a service dog.


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## Pytheis

I would also add that, for people in the United States (I don't know about other countries), there is no official registry for service dogs. If you order a "certificate" and vest online, it is a scam. There is NO official registration. You need a letter from your doctor dated within a year (and updated every year since) to use as your "proof", such as getting housing that does not allow dogs or your specific breed. If someone demands that you have them registered to allow them to stay, something is off. I ran into this issue when I was renting, and with enough fighting back, management backed off.

German shepherds are very often not allowed in apartments, so this information will be relevant to anyone renting with a GSD service animal. Read the ADA and know it well. If you have any questions, find a lawyer or organization that can help you understand it better. This is critical to having a service dog of any breed.

Edited to add:
I spoke with someone who had a service dog and had had one for years, and she said that she sometimes will order the fake registry online to appease people who don't know better. She had issues with renting as well, and she provided the online certificate as well as a doctor's letter, and they accepted it. You just never know.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Some further reading....

Topic: German Shepherds for Service Dogs? (Read 26970 times)

German Shepherds for Service Dogs?


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## Thecowboysgirl

Pytheis said:


> I would also add that, for people in the United States (I don't know about other countries), there is no official registry for service dogs. If you order a "certificate" and vest online, it is a scam. There is NO official registration. You need a letter from your doctor dated within a year (and updated every year since) to use as your "proof", such as getting housing that does not allow dogs or your specific breed. If someone demands that you have them registered to allow them to stay, something is off. I ran into this issue when I was renting, and with enough fighting back, management backed off.
> 
> German shepherds are very often not allowed in apartments, so this information will be relevant to anyone renting with a GSD service animal. Read the ADA and know it well. If you have any questions, find a lawyer or organization that can help you understand it better. This is critical to having a service dog of any breed.
> 
> Edited to add:
> I spoke with someone who had a service dog and had had one for years, and she said that she sometimes will order the fake registry online to appease people who don't know better. She had issues with renting as well, and she provided the online certificate as well as a doctor's letter, and they accepted it. You just never know.


I almost feel like this is a big enough issue to deserve its own thread. I *believe* ADA trumps BSL or breed restrictions in housing but I am not 100% sure.

My two main reasons for wanting to start this thread were:

#1 Is a GSD really the right fit for you (whoever you are out there) to be your SD
#2 If the answer to #1 is yes, then where do you find a suitable dog, because a lot of people seem to be coming on here with unsuitable dogs, many from questionable breeders. 

But I'd agree that part of question #1 is, living with a SD is hard, access with a SD is hard. And anything other than a fluffy bunny type dog does make it harder. I think it is easy to say that there are plenty of instances where a lab, golden, or poodle would pass without further questioning or issue when a GSD will not. This was true for me, in one apartment building that I moved into. At first they said I could not live there with her because she was a GSD and it was on their insurance policy's list of dangerous breeds. Had I been less vocal I might have not gotten that apartment. It wouldn't have happened with one of those other 3 breeds I listed. But I disputed that they could turn me away over that, and I had all her credentials ready to roll and we got in. 

As this person stated, there is no registry, only the legal definition according to the ADA. The fact that I was able to show proof of long term professional training, support of a known program, team certification through that program, Canine Good Citizen, and the dog herself is very convincing in person and she did go and meet the building manager, all contributed to us getting that apartment. 

I passionately love this breed and want them to be successful as SDs and not go the way of the buffalo but I also think that being really educated and realistic about it is part of the deal.


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## Pytheis

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I *believe* ADA trumps BSL or breed restrictions in housing but I am not 100% sure.


Yes, any breed of dog can live in any housing, no matter what the rules of the apartment complex, insurance statement, city laws, etc., if it is a service animal. No housing can turn you away because of your dog. A service dog is considered medical equipment. You would not turn someone away for having a wheelchair, and you cannot turn someone away for having a service dog, no matter the breed. This can get very complicated though, as someone can just say they are turning you away for something else (even if it isn't true) and you can't do much about it.

Having more paperwork like you described, the dog's proof of training, CGC, team certification, all help solidify in someone's brain that your dog is the real deal, and not someone wanting to slip an untrained, fake SD through the system. I would recommend taking as much information as you can to the landlord when asking them to allow your service dog.

You are right; this probably does need its own thread. It is something we should think about though.


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## konathegsd

There is NO breed restriction for sd?s. My landlord didn?t say a word and they know it?s a GSD


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## Thecowboysgirl

There is definitely no breed restriction for legal SD'S but other breed restrictions and prejudices exist and will sometimes come up as access issues...


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## CasanovaBlues

Having a service dog in training that is a German Shepherd, I have definitely run into numerous problems in the past. Firstly, he is being trained by myself, with professional help, which is completely legal, and you do not need to show paperwork to establishments like stores or restaurants. Period. There are two questions businesses are allowed to ask you: is your dog a service dog, and what tasks do they perform for you? They cannot ask for paperwork, demonstrations of your dog's abilities, or for you to leave solely because of the dog. Know your rights, and be vocal; I've had to stand up for myself more than once. In some states, service dogs in training do not have the same rights as fully trained service dogs. Fortunately I live in Virginia, where training status does not matter. Also, be aware that there are lots of people who are genuinely afraid of dogs that will make your life difficult. My boy is only six months and about sixty pounds, but I've literally had people scream and run away from him in stores. I've had people refuse to serve me because they're scared of him. I have never forced someone who is scared of dogs to help me, but it is incredibly obnoxious and tiresome having to wait for someone else to come, or hearing them insult my dog because he "looks scary". For the most part, you have to be able to let that kind of thing go, because it happens all the time. 
I would also agree that shepherds are not usually the best choice for anxiety/ptsd work (though obviously there are exceptions). My boy does mobility/vertigo work, which he does well, and is a good fit for the breed. I will say that you have to be careful making sure to select a line that has good temperament AND healthy conformation. Overangulation and hip, back, or shoulder problems pretty much destroy a dog's ability to be a mobility dog. Also, consider drive when thinking about a GSD SD. You want one able to keep up with you all day, but not one with such high drive that they can't be patient and ignore outside stimulus. Just something to think about.


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## CometDog

I'll add that protective breeds are not always the best choice for types of disabilities where you will need assistance from strangers. Such as seizures or passing out. Not always an issue of course, but something that should be considered as a possibility with this breed. Police don't always do well if they have to clear the way for first responders to work, and are blocked by a barking posturing dog. So yeah, go with a breeder that has produced other SDs for YOUR particular needs. Not entirely sure a GSD with high drive and a pedigree of coming from a long lines of police dogs would be such a great starting point puppy


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## Thecowboysgirl

While I understand why most of the big orgs don't really use GSDs, it does make me sad as traditionally this was supposed to be one of their traditional jobs, was it not?

I wonder if Fidelco still uses GSDs?


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## Shepdad

Thecowboysgirl said:


> While I understand why most of the big orgs don't really use GSDs, it does make me sad as traditionally this was supposed to be one of their traditional jobs, was it not?
> 
> I wonder if Fidelco still uses GSDs?


Their web site suggests that they still use GSDs. I have not been in direct contact with them though so I am not 100% sure.


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## CometDog

There is a school for guide dogs in Morristown NJ. I ONLY see the trainers working with GSDs, walking around town and training them. Traditional saddle, black and tan types too. So there is that place that still uses them..I think they are a national company, or at least provide nationally. The last of the traditional GSD Seeing Eye Dogs?


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## Thecowboysgirl

CometDog said:


> There is a school for guide dogs in Morristown NJ. I ONLY see the trainers working with GSDs, walking around town and training them. Traditional saddle, black and tan types too. So there is that place that still uses them..I think they are a national company, or at least provide nationally. The last of the traditional GSD Seeing Eye Dogs?


I'm glad to hear this. Hate to see the GSDs go the way of the buffalo as SDs...


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## CometDog

Here is the school. I exclusively see them walking the GSDs. On their FB page they have labs and GSDs.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/SeeingEye/photos/?ref=page_internal


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## ILGHAUS

This seems like a good place to insert this info.

The ADA is not the only law concerning Service Dogs. 
The ADA sections that are relevant for SDs are Title II and Title III which to sum it up deals with* Public Access*. 
U.S. Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division, Disability Rights Section is over Title II and Title III.


The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) deals with some *Housing Issues*. These issues are referred to as *Reasonable Accommodations*.
The definition formed by HUD is not the same as the DOJ.

Quote: What is an Assistance Animal under HUD?

An assistance animal is not a pet. It is an animal that works, provides assistance, or performs tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability, or provides emotional support that alleviates one or more identified symptoms or effects of a person's disability. Assistance animals perform many disability-related functions, including but not limited to, guiding individuals who are blind or have low vision, alerting individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing to sounds, providing protection or rescue assistance, pulling a wheelchair, fetching items, alerting persons to impending seizures, or providing emotional support to persons with disabilities who have a disability-related need for such support. For purposes of reasonable accommodation requests, neither the Fair Housing Act nor Section 504 requires an assistance animal to be individually trained or certified. While dogs are the most common type of assistance animal, other animals can also be assistance animals.

https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/ReasonableAccommodations15

Subject: Service Animals and Assistance Animals for People with Disabilities in Housing and HUD-Funded Programs 

1. Purpose: This notice explains certain obligations of housing providers under the Fair Housing Act (FHAct), Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (Section 504), and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) with respect to animals that provide assistance to individuals with disabilities. The Department of Justice's (DOT) amendments to its regulations' for Titles II and III of the ADA limit the definition of "service animal" under the ADA to include only dogs, and further define "service animal" to exclude emotional support animals. This definition, however, does not limit housing providers' obligations to make reasonable accommodations for assistance animals under the FHAct or Section 504. Persons with disabilities may request a reasonable accommodation for any assistance animal, including an emotional support animal, under both the FHAct and Section 504. In situations where the ADA and the FHAct/Section 504 apply simultaneously (e.g., a public housing agency, sales or leasing offices, or housing associated with a university or other place of education), housing providers must meet their obligations under both the reasonable accommodation standard of the FHAct/Section 504 and the service animal provisions of the ADA. 2. Applicability: This notice applies to all housing providers covered by the FHAct, Section 504, and/or the ADA


The Department of Transportation (DOT) deals with *Access* on commercial airlines. 

ACAA -- Air Carrier Access Act (in regards to service animals)
Transportation: Service Animals

Some common questions ...
Section 382.117 – Service Animals

*33. What type of documentation are carriers permitted to require as a condition of permitting a service animal to travel on a flight segment scheduled to take 8 hours or more?*

Answer: The carrier may require documentation that the animal will not need to relieve itself during the expected duration of the flight or that the animal can relieve itself in a way that does not create a health or sanitation issue on the flight. Examples of documentation a passenger could provide include either a written statement from a veterinarian, a signed statement from the passenger containing the procedures that he/she employs to prevent the animal from having to relieve itself (e.g., limitation on the provision of food and water) and an assurance that the use of these procedures has prevented the animal from relieving itself for a period similar to that of the planned duration of the flight, or a signed statement with photographs or other illustrations of the animal’s ability to relieve itself without posing a health or sanitation problem (e.g., the use of a passenger-provided absorbent plastic-backed pad).

*34. May carriers require documentation that an animal accompanying a passenger with
a disability is a service animal? *

Answer: Generally no, except in limited circumstances as discussed below. Unless a foreign carrier has received a conflict of laws waiver permitting the carrier to impose such a requirement, or the carrier finds that the verbal assurances of the passenger are not credible and there are no other indications of the animal’s status such as a harness, tag or vest, the airline may not require such documentation. Carriers are permitted to require documentation for emotional support animals and psychiatric service animals.

*35. What conditions may carriers impose on the transport of service dogs?*

Answer: Carriers must transport all service dogs (e.g., guide dogs, seizure alert dogs, etc.) as long as safety and animal health requirements are met.

*36. Must carriers accept emotional support and psychiatric support animals in the aircraft cabin?*

Answer: U.S. carriers must accept any emotional support or psychiatric service animal in the aircraft cabin consistent with applicable safety and animal health requirements and ensure that its foreign code share partners do the same on covered flights with respect to passengers traveling under the U.S. carrier’s code. Foreign carriers must accept any emotional support or psychiatric service dog in the aircraft cabin consistent with
applicable safety and animal health requirements on covered flights.

*37. What should airline personnel do if a passenger with a disability is accompanied in the airplane cabin by a service animal that does not fit in the space immediately in front of the passenger and there is no other seat in the cabin with sufficient space to safely accommodate the animal? *

Answer: If a service animal does not fit in the space immediately in front of the accompanying passenger with a disability and there is no other seat with sufficient space to safely accommodate the animal and its partner (i.e., user), there are several options to consider for accommodating the service animal in the cabin in the same class of service. The carrier should speak with other passengers to find a passenger in an adjacent seat who is willing to share foot space with the animal, or a passenger in a seat adjacent to a location where the service animal can be accommodated (e.g., in the space behind the last row of seats) or adjacent to an empty seat, who is willing to exchange seats with the service animal’s partner. As noted in the preamble to our rule, there are probably no circumstances in which the purchase of a second seat would be necessary to accommodate the service animal. If a class of service on a flight is totally filled, there would not be any seat available for purchase. If the class of service had even one middle seat unoccupied, the passenger with a service animal could be seated next to the vacant seat. It is likely that even a large animal (e.g., Great Dane) could use some of the floor space of the vacant seat, making any further purchase by the passenger unnecessary. Only if there is no alternative available to enable the passenger to travel with the service animal in the cabin on that flight should the carrier offer options such as transporting the service animal in the cargo hold or transportation on a later flight with more room. When transportation on a later flight is offered, carriers are strongly encouraged, but not required by Part 382, to allow any passenger who wishes to rebook on a different flight to the same destination and on the same airline to do so at the same fare.

*38. If a carrier determines that a service animal cannot accompany a passenger with a disability in the cabin due to a behavior problem on the part of the animal that may result in a direct threat to the health or safety of others or a fundamental alteration in service, what should the carrier do?*

Answer: The carrier should first permit the passenger to try available means of mitigating the problem (e.g., muzzling a barking service dog) before deciding to exclude the service animal from the cabin. If those means are not successful, the carrier may follow its company policy on pets because the animal has shown that it has not been successfully trained to function as a service animal in public settings. Whenever the airline decides not to accept an animal for travel as a service animal, the airline must provide the passenger a written explanation of its decision within 10 calendar days of the incident.

*39. If a carrier determines that a service animal cannot accompany a disabled passenger in the cabin and the passenger refuses to allow the animal to be transported in the cargo hold and requests instead to be rebooked on a later flight, must the carrier do so without additional charge?*

Answer: If an airline cannot safely transport a service animal (e.g., because it is too large to fit anywhere in the cabin), a carrier must follow its nondiscriminatory contract of carriage provisions applicable to the passenger’s fare in determining how to best reaccommodate such passengers. Although not required by Part 382, carriers are strongly encouraged to allow any such passengers who wish to rebook on a different flight to the same destination and on the same airline to do so at the same fare. 

*40. How can a passenger accompanied by a service animal find out whether the country he or she is traveling to has animal health regulations that carriers as well as the passenger with a service animal must comply with in order to ensure the legal entry of the service animal into that country?*

Answer: Passengers should always confirm well in advance with the embassy or consulate of the country they plan to visit and with the airline on which they will be traveling, which animal health regulations apply. Most countries have animal health regulations that require certain health conditions to be met before an animal can be legally admitted to the country. At a minimum, most countries require a valid rabies vaccination certificate issued by a licensed veterinarian. Additional health measures may be required within specified time frames before you travel and species restrictions may also apply. Passengers should be aware that many islands have similar restrictions, even for animals traveling from the mainland of the same country (e.g., Hawaii), and check with the island’s designated animal health authority before traveling to determine what conditions apply. 

*41. For purposes of providing documentation stating a passenger’s disability-related need for an emotional support or psychiatric service animal1 , what kind of practitioners qualify as “licensed mental health professionals”?* 

Answer: Any licensed mental health professional (e.g., psychiatrist, psychologist, licensed clinical social worker) including a medical doctor who is specifically treating a passenger’s mental or emotional disability is a practitioner qualified to provide documentation stating the passenger’s need for an emotional support or psychiatric service animal. A qualified practitioner would include a general practitioner who is treating the passenger’s mental or emotional disability.

*42. May a carrier require that the documentation a passenger provides in order to travel with an animal that is used as an emotional support or psychiatric service animal state the passenger’s specific mental or emotional condition?*

Answer: No. A carrier may only require that a passenger’s documentation confirm that apassenger has a mental or emotional disability recognized in the Diagnostic and StatisticalManual of Mental Disorders- Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), in addition to three other items(i.e., the passenger needs the animal for air travel and/or activity at the passenger’sdestination, the individual providing the assessment is a licensed mental healthprofessional and that passenger is under his/her care, the date and type of mental healthprofessional’s license and the state or other jurisdiction in which it was issued).

*43. May a carrier accept documentation from a licensed mental health professional concerning a passenger’s need for a psychiatric or emotional support animal if the documentation is more than one year old?*

Answer: Carriers may, at their discretion, accept from the passenger with a disability documentation from his or her licensed mental health professional that is more than one year old. We encourage carriers to consider accepting “outdated” documentation in situations where such passenger provides a letter or notice of cancellation or other written communication indicating the cessation of health insurance coverage, and his/her inability to afford treatment for his or her mental or emotional disability.

http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/FAQ_5_13_09.pdf


There are more documents on the above, but these are some of the basics to understand Federal SD Laws.


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## ILGHAUS

*Concern on areas with Breed Bans / Dangerous Breeds
Insurance coverage, Animal Control* 

Department of Justice (DOJ)

Conversely, if an individual uses a breed of dog that is perceived to be aggressive because of breed reputation, stereotype, or the history or experience the observer may have with other dogs, but the dog is under the control of the individual with a disability and does not exhibit aggressive behavior, the public accommodation cannot exclude the individual or the animal from the place of public accommodation. The animal can only be removed if it engages in the behaviors mentioned in § 36.302(c) (as revised in the final rule) or if the presence of the animal constitutes a fundamental alteration to the nature of the goods, services, facilities, and activities of the place of public accommodation. 

Above from the Office of the Federal Register 09-15-2010 
Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability by Public Accommodations and in Commercial Facilities


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## ILGHAUS

Q. Which law "trumps" another? Federal or State laws?

A. In general, neither can be said to be held another. To be correct it is whichever law(s) give the individual handler the most privileges.

Federal laws give the basic minimum rights to the owner/handler. If a state gives additional rights or privileges than that law is followed. If an individual makes use of a state law then the individual must also adhere to any additional requirements given by that law. 

Often we here that "Federal law trumps state law." A better statement would be "Whichever law is the least restrictive to an owner or handler is the law that should be used."


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## ILGHAUS

"In some states, service dogs in training do not have the same rights as fully trained service dogs."

When speaking to someone or writing any type of document to address legalities concerning your dog it is important to remember a specific point. A Service Dog or even a SDIT does not have any rights. It is the handler that has rights. Civil Rights are rights of people. Many people say that this is not important, but when dealing with lawyers or others in the know on these laws, such mistakes on use of a term can delay or have overthrown disputes on points of law.

A seemingly minor point that can be of importance. :wink2:


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## ILGHAUS

Thecowboysgirl said:


> While I understand why most of the big orgs don't really use GSDs, it does make me sad as traditionally this was supposed to be one of their traditional jobs, was it not?
> 
> I wonder if Fidelco still uses GSDs?


When SDs were first used in the U.S. the handlers were military vets who suffered vision loss and many were use to using and handling German Shepherds. Next in popularity and used were Boxers.


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## Joys

I have PTSD, dissociative disorder, and anxiety. My psychiatrist is onboard with the SD idea; medication isn’t getting it. 
But I’m not sure we can get through training. 

Zelda does help with my hypervigilence just by being near me. Before Zelda, I wouldn’t walk into an empty house without taking a gun and going through the entire house, looking behind doors and shower curtains. Every. Freaking. Time. I would do this while my hands would shake and I would sweat with fear. 

If I was home, I kept a loaded gun within reach. Any noise and I would grab a gun and start searching. I made family members.... nervous. 

Zelda is only 5 months old, but I’ve already put down the gun. I rely on her to let me know if the noises I hear are real. If someone approaches the house, she’ll go sit in front of the door. I don’t have to be on high alert anymore. 

I think she’s too young to protect me. She may never protect me, who knows. But I’m able to check reality by relying on her eyes and ears, instead of mine...because mine play tricks on me.


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## konathegsd

Joys said:


> I have PTSD, dissociative disorder, and anxiety. My psychiatrist is onboard with the SD idea; medication isn’t getting it.
> But I’m not sure we can get through training.
> 
> Zelda does help with my hypervigilence just by being near me. Before Zelda, I wouldn’t walk into an empty house without taking a gun and going through the entire house, looking behind doors and shower curtains. Every. Freaking. Time. I would do this while my hands would shake and I would sweat with fear.
> 
> If I was home, I kept a loaded gun within reach. Any noise and I would grab a gun and start searching. I made family members.... nervous.
> 
> Zelda is only 5 months old, but I’ve already put down the gun. I rely on her to let me know if the noises I hear are real. If someone approaches the house, she’ll go sit in front of the door. I don’t have to be on high alert anymore.
> 
> I think she’s too young to protect me. She may never protect me, who knows. But I’m able to check reality by relying on her eyes and ears, instead of mine...because mine play tricks on me.


Hopefully she doesn’t become protective if you’re planning on doing public access with her.


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## Joys

I’m not really planning to go the SD route. She would have to mature a lot to take on that kind of training. 
She’s so food motivated, I can’t imagine her in a restaurant.
She’s just a pet. But she’s helped a lot just by being here.


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