# Help! Man wants our boy to sire his GSD... Is her coloring true to the breed?



## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

We are looking to breed our Black and Tan male... He has a beautiful pedigree. However, we were approached by a man who says his female GSD is in heat and he would like our male to sire her pups. He sent me a photograph and called her a white German shepherd, but she looks more like a solid sandy tan to me. 

Now I thought because the white gene was a masking gene if she was purebred and white, that she would be solid white. Is this correct? And if she is a purebred what would the pups from a almost solid black male (tan on his paws and lower legs) and a sandy tan female most likely be? I've requested that he send her papers to me, but haven't heard back yet. Just wanted to have my answer ready when I did.

I was wanting more of a solid black female for a better chance at a solid black puppy. (Father's mother, and father were solid black. Grandmother was a black and tan saddel). Could we get a pretty markings, pretty colored litter out of this match? TIA


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Do not breed the dogs in question.

ETA: oops, re-read that and it sounds very harsh... Sorry! Bottom line, color is a consideration in breeding, but not remotely near the top ten. At the very least, health testing must be done on both parents. Read up on the Breeding forum.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Dogs should not be bred for "pretty looks."

Please read this recent thread.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...8065-am-i-backyard-breeder-hobby-breeder.html


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Our boy is ckc and akc registered. He is in excellent health and has a good temperament. I'm just wondering if the female in question is worth our time looking into her vet records, papers, and temperament, or should I just stop at her coloring? Is her coloring enough to dismiss her as a good match/bloodline?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Zellie&Major said:


> Our boy is ckc and akc registered. ?



This only means that some paperwork was sent in to put the dog in a database.
Did you read the thread?

Is the dog titled?
Health screened?

What is your goal for breeding?

What will you do with the pups?


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you Marbury. We have done our work with our boy... I'm just wondering if I can save us the hassle of screening this female based solely on her coloring? Thanks.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you had your dog xrayed to ensure you are not passing on HD and ED to the puppies? Has the bitch been xrayed? Has she been tested to ensure she does not have brucellosis? Either tested for DM? Any EPI, Mega E, and other congenital issues in either line? Going back thru the generations, not just the dog you currently own?

http://www.cactusstatemsc.org/healthscreening.pdf

Color has NOTHING to do with a good breeding. Nothing at all. A good match looks at the temperament and health of many generations back to bring out the best qualities of both the sire and the dam.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Sunflowers, yes he has been health screened, as were his parents and grandparents. Like I said, he's fine. We've done our work with him. Thanks for your concern. Do you know anything about the coloring of the female that I was asking about?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Zellie&Major said:


> Thank you Marbury. We have done our work with our boy... I'm just wondering if I can save us the hassle of screening this female based solely on her coloring? Thanks.


Yes and she and future dogs can be excluded if 1. they don't have their hips and elbows xrayed and cleared by OFA, 2. AND titles or real life work to prove their temperament and working ability, AND 3. their combined personalities, conformation, and pedigree work well together to produce certain characteristics (besides just color). Same goes for your dog. If anyone asks you to breed your dog before they know anything about his hips, elbows (xrays not just vet says they are ok) and has seen him work, RUN!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Zellie&Major said:


> Sunflowers, yes he has been health screened, as were his parents and grandparents. Like I said, he's fine. We've done our work with him. Thanks for your concern. Do you know anything about the coloring of the female that I was asking about?


If she is solid sandy tan, that is a fault. Not the breed standard. I would not even bother. 

I would do a lot of research on finding a bitch, if I were you. 
Thing is, you may not find someone willing to use your dog as stud. 
The owner of the female has the choice.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Jax08, as I said we don't know much about the female at this point. As I said to Marbury and Sunflowers, we've had our boy's health checked and he's fine. And looks are determined by genetics and I am looking for a rich colored and good looking patterned match, as well as good health and temperament out of this. 

That is why I'm asking about the coloring. I can go through papers and vet records on my own, and can look at temperament evaluations on my own. But I do need some help with knowing if this female's coloring is true to the breed and possibly what type of coloring and pattern I can expect from this match based on genetics. Thanks for any help you may have with my question.


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

If you don't have any working/show titles and ofa , cerf , dm health clearance, don't breed


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Also, please don't breed a dog with KNOWN health problems!



> Major, when he had "uncurable" allergies as a pup to keep from giving up on him and finally found something that worked


That is something that can be passed down to the pups...


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO! I thought it wasn't right, and you just saved us a ton of work and time! I was expecting the same and was wondering when they were going to ask for Major's paperwork. We are screening everyone that's asked, but when I saw her coloring I thought it would save us a lot of time if I could just excuse her right away.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

I_LOVE_MIKKO, those allergies are now fine with a change in diet, and we've talked with several vets that have assured us that they aren't going to be passed down. Thanks for your concern though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok. You seem to have this all figured out except for the coloring. Maybe you should do some reading on what is considered a fault in the breed and what the breed standard is.

German Shepherds SV Standard
United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard
CKC Breed Standards
German Shepherd Dog Page


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Post the pedigree please


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks Sunflower, that's what I needed to know!  We have a couple of interested females that look good so far. We're going to do a lot more research, but I know our boy is a "good catch"!


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Zellie&Major said:


> Thank you I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO! I thought it wasn't right, and you just saved us a ton of work and time! I was expecting the same and was wondering when they were going to ask for Major's paperwork. We are screening everyone that's asked, but when I saw her coloring I thought it would save us a lot of time if I could just excuse her right away.


That's good, I'm glad you are screening them. Generally, when people ask questions like that they also don't know about the necessity of xray cleared hips, titles, etc. That is why we all asked, even though it wasn't your question since we all care so much about the breed.



> I_LOVE_MIKKO, those allergies are now fine with a change in diet, and we've talked with several vets that have assured us that they aren't going to be passed down. Thanks for your concern though.


Yes, I saw that you said they were fixed. I don't know anything about the ability to pass on specific allergies- so that's good that they don't think he will...certainly don't need any more GSDs with allergies!


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Jax08, Thanks so much for the links! I do need help with that, and I'm looking forward to doing the research for it!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Allergies quite often have a genetic component. Especially food allergies. Genetic in people and in dogs. Unless this was a specialist that said this, I would highly doubt it. Please do your research.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Zellie&Major said:


> Jax08, Thanks so much for the links! I do need help with that, and I'm looking forward to doing the research for it!


Instead of breeding right now, why don't you find a mentor. Find a local SchH club or a local AKC club and find someone that can teach you more about the breed. The questions you are asking imply that you have some basic knowledge but not a full understanding of how it all goes together. You might find that you were 100% correct or you might change your mind about breeding him at all.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Aside from making sure any female meets the breed standard, is health screened (including OFA hips and elbows, not just "vet says they're ok") and has some sort of title proving trainability, nerve and temperament (an official one, again not an owner/vet/trainer saying she's "great"), you want to get a copy of her pedigree and then find someone knowledgeable in the bloodlines that both the female and your male come from to ensure that they are a good match. 

Pedigrees provide insight into the potential genetics that 2 dogs carry and can pass onto their puppies, so it is absolutely imperative to look at those and know how to interpret them. There is much, much more involved in ensuring that 2 dogs are a good pedigree match than just making sure that they are registered purebreds or have some titles/health screens in there somewhere. If you are not knowledgeable about the bloodlines than find someone who is (perhaps your male's breeder can help?).


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you all so much for your help!



I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> That is why we all asked, even though it wasn't your question since we all care so much about the breed.


I_LOVE_MIKKO, That's one of the many reasons I love this site!  If/when we find a good match for Major I'll let you know!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Can you post your dog's pedigree? You say his health is "fine", and that he's been "health screened", but what does that mean? Does that mean the vet looked at him and said he was healthy? Or did you send hip and elbow x-rays to the OFA? What is his DM status? Titles?

If you have no idea what I'm talking about, don't breed your dog just yet. Educate yourself on the breeding requirements and the written standard for the GSD.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Zellie&Major said:


> Thank you Marbury. We have done our work with our boy... I'm just wondering if I can save us the hassle of screening this female based solely on her coloring? Thanks.


Hello! Welcome to the Forum!

If you search "should I breed" or anything similar on this forum you will find some pretty heated threads, with very critical responses. People around here love the breed, many work with GSD rescues, and get very critical and defensive when they hear someone talking about breeding, that seems to not have a ton of experience or research. Many around here believe that a dog shouldn't be bred based on any *one thing. Excuse us if it's been taken the wrong way, but because you came on only asking about colors, and nothing else, people are jumping to the conclusion that you aren't completely educated in GSD breeding. The reason they would assume this is because, if you were educated, in pedigrees, HD, DM, and all the other problems that come with the breed, working the dogs (LE, SAR, Guide Dogs, SchH, agility, flyball, dockdiving, etc...)....if you were familiar with all these things...one would assume you'd know all about coloring as well.

Taking a dog to a vet and having the vet do a once over (just assuming, apologies if you've had hips OFA'd, DM testing, etc...) is not really anything. A great temperament to you, may not really be the GSD standard temperament. The reason people like to see dogs working in some, if not many venues, is to have this temperament tested. Being great on walks with you, at the park, in your house or backyard, is not testing the GSD's temperament. SchH is the breed test for temperament in Germany. People here are very very passionate about seeing dogs that are being bred, *proven* in a sport/work, because *SO* many people *think* they have the best dog ever....but if you can't prove that...then you can't claim that.

I haven't read all the responses to your post yet, but I just wanted to say Welcome and explain why some might be questioning you. I wish you the best of luck, and I really hope you do the right thing by your dogs, whatever that may be.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Sorry, just looked and you've been around here since 2011...so sorry for the "welcome to the forum" lol.

One question....you say the dog has been checked several times, yet you still have not explained that....several people have asked for clarification on what that means and you are skirting the questions...which, I'm sorry...makes people question you even more. 

You said he's a "catch," people are just trying to figure out why you think that. You have had some very very knowledgable breeders chime in on this thread. If you post his pedigree and his health testing results, they could offer some great insight to you. I hope you understand why people are asking so many questions. My friend breeds amazing, champion sport dogs, and works with a genetics-specialist, veterinarian, when it comes to her breeding. Most general vets, don't have the knowledge or the experience to offer much advice on *breeding. They can help with emergencies, etc...but to don't/can't offer much insight on genetics and breeding. Just my two cents on that


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

I know that Major has had his hips x-rayed and he was fine. There have been other tests over the years that I know he was fine with but can't remember exactly what at this time. I would rather wait until I have it in front of me and know exactly what, rather than say something and have to go back on it. My mother has also talked to a former breeder friend of hers that thought Major would be excellent for breeding. As far as posting his pedigree I will as soon as I can get it faxed or emailed to me from my parents. (Don't worry that I don't have it... Just wait and see  )

Major started out as my family's dog (my parents house in Alabama)---I was married last year and moved to Colorado. Now my parents are wanting to possibly breed Major and are asking me to do the research and screening for them. They still have all of his paperwork and when I need to know something I have to call. If I can do all of the paperwork and screening for them, they're willing to go to see the females in question and send me any info from that. 

Also, by doing all of this for them, they have agreed to wave the stud fee for the female's family and instead give my husband and I first pick of the litter. So, there's no money motivation behind this for me. If anything it motivates me even more to get it just perfect, so that my husband's and my pet (not looking to continue breeding...at least at this point) will have a very happy and HEALTHY life. 

I know those aren't the exact answers that many of you are looking for, but I promise I will post them as soon as I can get copies of them. I truly do appreciate all of your hard-earned advice, knowledge, and wisdom on this. I don't want to hurt the breed either...esp Major's line. He's like a 3rd brother. We love him dearly and wouldn't do anything that would reflect badly on him or the breed. Thank you for taking the time to show you care.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is Major with you or with your parents in Alabama?


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm sorry, but just by this sentence, the man approach you is a irresponsible backyard breeder
"we were approached by a man who says his female GSD is in heat and he would like our male to sire her pups"

A responsible breeder will look into the pedigree, check all the health certs, let the dog meet and spend some time with the other dog to check the temperament if it's compatible with the female, responsible breeder would not just walk to someone on the street and ask to use their dog to breed

I'm sorry, but please do not breed your dog for now.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

He's with my parents in Alabama.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Zellie&Major said:


> I know that Major has had his hips x-rayed and he was fine. There have been other tests over the years that I know he was fine with but can't remember exactly what at this time. I would rather wait until I have it in front of me and know exactly what, rather than say something and have to go back on it. My mother has also talked to a former breeder friend of hers that thought Major would be excellent for breeding. As far as posting his pedigree I will as soon as I can get it faxed or emailed to me from my parents. (Don't worry that I don't have it... Just wait and see  )
> 
> Major started out as my family's dog (my parents house in Alabama)---I was married last year and moved to Colorado. Now my parents are wanting to possibly breed Major and are asking me to do the research and screening for them. They still have all of his paperwork and when I need to know something I have to call. If I can do all of the paperwork and screening for them, they're willing to go to see the females in question and send me any info from that.
> 
> ...


That's wonderful that those tests were done! He sounds like a great dog. Has he been worked at all to prove the temperament? Your dog is obviously only half of the puzzle for genetic makeup of his offspring. Posting his pedigree on here along with any prospective females, you could get some great feed back from the pedigree-whiz's on how they'd match up!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Zellie&Major said:


> I know that Major has had his hips x-rayed and he was fine. There have been other tests over the years that I know he was fine with but can't remember exactly what at this time. I would rather wait until I have it in front of me and know exactly what, rather than say something and have to go back on it.


Ah, okay, so someone else did the xrays and tests? Yes, I agree, get everything in front of you before you even think about breeding Major. In order to preserve everything about the breed that you love, steps have to be taken and things have to be PROVEN before breeding. Check out the system they have in Germany. Over there, they require many hoops to jump through before the dog gets his license to breed. Without having done the xrays, health tests, temperament test, conformation, and titles, the dog's offspring cannot be registered as a German Shepherd Dog. Here in the US, we have no such requirements, which is leading to the downfall of not just the GSD but many other breeds. Thankfully, there are many breeders stateside that follow the German system.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Zellie&Major said:


> I
> Also, by doing all of this for them, they have agreed to wave the stud fee for the female's family and instead give my husband and I first pick of the litter. So, there's no money motivation behind this for me.


You're potentially saving thousands on a puppy by doing this service for them. How can you say money isn't a motivator here?

My advice... don't breed this dog (that has no ofa health cerfs or titles) and go with a breeder that knows what they're doing. Bite the bullet and pay for the puppy from a responsible breeder.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you DaniFani! I know he's had training work with our police department, but I'm not sure what else. I'll be sure to post the pedigrees when I have them! I would love to hear what the "pedigree whiz's" think! 

Freestep, Yes, the German system is great! Major's grandmother, Emma, was German and a beautiful talented GSD! 

Lucy Dog, I suppose we are "saving" money by going this route, but that's not the way we think of it. We're doing this because if it at all possible I would love to be able to have a part of our beloved family pet after he's gone, and so would my brother. If I just wanted another GSD I would just buy from a breeder, but it's not just another GSD that we want. The time and work involved in doing this myself instead of letting a bredder do it for me does acquire monetary cost as well as just the cost of time and effort. I'm not cutting corners with the research and tests I have and am willing to have done (those all cost money that we wouldn't have to pay if I kept him as a pet and used a breeder). Please don't assume that just because I'm willing to do this myself for the first time that I'm going to be irresponsible with it.


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

Zellie&Major said:


> Thank you DaniFani! I know he's had training work with our police department, but I'm not sure what else. I'll be sure to post the pedigrees when I have them! I would love to hear what the "pedigree whiz's" think!
> 
> Freestep, Yes, the German system is great! Major's grandmother, Emma, was German and a beautiful talented GSD!
> 
> Lucy Dog, I suppose we are "saving" money by going this route, but that's not the way we think of it. We're doing this because if it at all possible I would love to be able to have a part of our beloved family pet after he's gone, and so would my brother. If I just wanted another GSD I would just buy from a breeder, but it's not just another GSD that we want. The time and work involved in doing this myself instead of letting a bredder do it for me does acquire monetary cost as well as just the cost of time and effort. I'm not cutting corners with the research and tests I have and am willing to have done (those all cost money that we wouldn't have to pay if I kept him as a pet and used a breeder). Please don't assume that just because I'm willing to do this myself for the first time that I'm going to be irresponsible with it.



If you want to be responsible. Talk with a reputable breeder to see if they want to use your dog(after you train and get all health cert), NOT to breed with some guy just walk up to you and say want to use your dog to breed without knowing anything about your dog. 
Everyone of us would also like to do the same thing, we didn't because we know our dog is either not qualify or we don't have all the time and money to prove our dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What are you "screening" in females? Usually it's breeders (owners of the females) that are extensively screening studs... Color aside, if the owner of the bitch has no clue that would be a huge red flag for me. No one uses my stud as a matter of convenience or because he looks pretty. Also they keep the puppies, so if you're looking for puppies for family members you may find your dog is the wrong gender. Sometimes you can ask for a puppy in lieu of stud fee but make sure the agreement is rock solid.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Zellie&Major said:


> Thank you DaniFani! I know he's had training work with our police department, but I'm not sure what else. I'll be sure to post the pedigrees when I have them! I would love to hear what the "pedigree whiz's" think!
> 
> Freestep, Yes, the German system is great! Major's grandmother, Emma, was German and a beautiful talented GSD!
> 
> Lucy Dog, I suppose we are "saving" money by going this route, but that's not the way we think of it. *We're doing this because if it at all possible I would love to be able to have a part of our beloved family pet after he's gone, and so would my brother. If I just wanted another GSD I would just buy from a breeder, but it's not just another GSD that we want. The time and work involved in doing this myself instead of letting a bredder do it for me does acquire monetary cost as well as just the cost of time and effort. I'm not cutting corners with the research and tests I have and am willing to have done (those all cost money that we wouldn't have to pay if I kept him as a pet and used a breeder). Please don't assume that just because I'm willing to do this myself for the first time that I'm going to be irresponsible with it.*


To the bolded: I guess the problem is....a lot, if not most, backyard breeders, have this same mentality. SO you have homes for two puppies...that's great...what if there are 12 puppies? And it's so much more than how good the female is....it's also how good are the female's owners. How are they screening for buyers? How do you know what is going to happen to each puppy? The fact that you would even *consider* someone off the street offering up their bitch (especially if it's also their first time, with the same sentimental reasons) concerns me. Not one of the legitimate, successful breeders on here would even consider your dog based on the lack of current testing and titling. Don't you want a stellar bitch? If so you need to have a *proven* stellar sire.

*Training* is different than *titling*....ANY temperamental nutcase can be trained.....titling, at a trial, with a judge, deducting points...is a totally different scenario. You also don't seem to have the knowledge to really look at this dog objectively, and evaluate it. I would really get him to a SchH club, and ask the TD to evaluate him....then go from there with all the other tests.

EDIT: To clarify, a TD at a SchH club, who is knowledgeable about breeding, specifically GSDs.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Dioworld, If you'd read the exchanges on the thread you would have realized that we did check with a reputable former breeder who thought Major was an excellent candidate for breeding, and we're not using the guy that approached me earlier, and I've already said I am willing to spend the time and money to prove my dog. If I've already addressed it I won't be addressing it again. Thank you.


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

Zellie&Major said:


> Dioworld, If you'd read the exchanges on the thread you would have realized that we did check with a reputable former breeder who thought Major was an excellent candidate for breeding, and we're not using the guy that approached me earlier, and I've already said I am willing to spend the time and money to prove my dog. If I've already addressed it I won't be addressing it again. Thank you.



I'm not against you, but how can that reputable breeder without knowing your dogs pedigree( you still can't provide now) say your dog is suitable for breeding?
without any proof of real health cert by ofa, getting xray vet saying it's good doesn't mean anything, i'm sorry if i offended you. But i just don't want to see any more dogs ending up in the shelter.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Zellie&Major said:


> Dioworld, If you'd read the exchanges on the thread you would have realized that we did check with a reputable former breeder who thought Major was an excellent candidate for breeding, and we're not using the guy that approached me earlier, and I've already said I am willing to spend the time and money to prove my dog. If I've already addressed it I won't be addressing it again. Thank you.


I am sorry, but a reputable breeder (imo) wouldn't just take a look at your dog and say he's a good candidate without temperament testing, titling, and all the health tests. The same way a vet cant glance over and feel a dog's hips and say that it is good to go and is HD-free....A *candidate* is different then, "yeah let's breed." 

I feel like I am nit picking over everything you are saying, I just can't stand how completely unregulated dog breeding is in this country...and that's just coming from years of exposure to rescues that came from sire's owners, just like you....wanting to "have a piece of their dog" from it's offspring. I can't stand that sentiment as the number one reason for breeding....I believe it clouds everything else...Sorry.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh for heaven's sake the answer of your question is simple. 

Your dog has good coloring, the bitch has questionable coloring. You will not get better coloring out of the litter and will probably get worse, so I would pass. 

Yes, color should be the last thing we should consider, but it's the first thing we see. If the first thing we see is out of the standard, then we do not need to look at the pedigree, the health history, the temperament testing. Just say no and save yourself some grief. 

The self-appointed guardians of the breed here are NEVER going to give you the go ahead with breeding. A better question to ask is "what requirements should a bitch meet to be considered as a mating prospect?" Because the 4-12 puppies that your dog sires out of this bitch is not going to overflow the shelters, or wreck the breed. 

But if you are serious about breeding in the future, what your dog produces now WILL impact your reputation as a stud owner. If you allow your dog to breed to a bitch with unknown health history and color fault, and without considering temperament, and the genetics of the match, then down the line that can bite you in the back side, if any of the puppies turn out with serious issues. Because owners of the bitch WILL blame the sire and so forth.

If you have an awesome stud dog and you have gotten health certifications -- OFA hips, elbow, thyroid, cardiac, dm, VonWilbrand's disease, then I would expect requiring at least some of that from the bitch as well. As for show and working and performance titles, that really is dependent on what is important to you and to the bitch owner. In a perfect world, all the K9s out there would be champions in the show ring, but in fact, there are really different venues for dogs, some like schuzhund, some work their dogs in SAR/k9/protection, some go the AKC route, and some show in conformation. Some do none of these things and that does not mean their dogs are inferior, just unproven.

More importantly from a stud-owner's point of view would be a brucellosis test -- Doggy VD, can cause your male to go sterile, and the bitch to lose the litter and become sterile. A vaginal culture is a good idea as well, though that is not a sterile environment and one will expect a variety of bacteria. What you are looking for is a lot of bacteria, and anything that might affect your boy.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> Oh for heaven's sake the answer of your question is simple.
> 
> Your dog has good coloring, the bitch has questionable coloring. You will not get better coloring out of the litter and will probably get worse, so I would pass.
> 
> ...


Too bad that's the mentality of a lot BYBs and why so many of the shelters are over-run...what a crappy attitude...imo...."it's only one litter, what's the harm?"


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Zellie&Major

It's probably going to be all downhill from here.

On this forum there are unwritten rules about breeding and if you don't fulfill all those requests you will not get a blessing to breed your dog.

It's not that I disagree with everyone but this scenario has been played out so many times on here that I've seen people get so frustrated they just leave.

I believe I'm just more realistic that not everyone who breeds is looking to "improve the breed". Even if I or others disagree with your motives it's a free country and your life.

Try not to get angry and keep an open mind.

My best to you.


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

Also, a reputable breeder know their puppies and place them to homes that fits them. 

My dog was bite by a dog that was produce by a so call reputable breeder 
Why's that? because that dog is not an aggressive but a very dominant dog . The owners are first time owner. and that breeder allows buyers to pick their own puppy.

Imagine if you produce 10 puppies, you don't know the temperament of the puppy, you sold those pup to unfit home, 6 months later, 5 of them don't know how to control their dog and return back to you. What are you going to do with them? if you don't take them back, they will end up in the shelter....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> Too bad that's the mentality of a lot BYBs and why so many of the shelters are over-run...what a crappy attitude...imo...."it's only one litter, what's the harm?"


Yes, it is almost as crappy of an attitude as instead of answering a simple question, to give someone the third degree and to ask for the pedigree so that you all can chop it to pieces and label the breeders of said dogs as BYBs or Puppy Mills. Whatever.

Personally, I think that the burden of a litter is on the bitch owner, not the stud dog owner. The stud dog owner needs to guard their dog's reputation. The bitch owner will use your dog if you let them, if you do not, they will go down the street to the next intact male, who might be a much poorer representative of the breed. 

The 4-12 puppies her dog sires WILL NOT over-flow shelters or wreck the breed because that bitch is in heat and her owner is looking to breed. He will breed that bitch, so the 4-12 puppies are coming regardless. 

We cannot change everyone else, but we can govern our own selves. If we do not want our boy to contribute to pet over-population, that's fine, but it will not change the over-population one iota. Sorry. It is the bitch-owners who can effect that. The stud owners are just witholding quality, and that is up to them. 

But yeah, probably a crappy attitude. I have been under my tractor all day, and still have an acre of haying to do. So I am not in the best mood.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dogs out of all types of breeders end up in shelters......Selzer we see this one much the same.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

It was once thought that the masking gene stopped the production of all eumelanin and phaelomelanin in the coat, but exceptions have been found to this rule (eg biscuit spots in Samoyeds) and now there is discussion that another locus (called I for intensity) might be controlling the strength of the mask.

The bitch's color is a disqualification and she should not be bred. UKC rules are different but since you're talking AKC they should definitely not be bred. I'm not a dog show person, but the standard is very clear on that point. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, that argument is getting old and rather lame. The issue for me would be, based on the interaction the OP described I would be concerned that at minimum, this bitch hasn't been tested for brucellosis and the owner probably has no clue what that is. Also I think the OP would be better off focusing on *their* dog and proving his value as a stud dog than using a public forum to help "screen" prospective females. If he's a nice dog, by all means breed him to the appropriate female. I also agree that a breeder assessing him as a "candidate" is not an endorsement for him as a stud, it just means don't neuter him just because. Do the health testing, work with experienced people and get an honest assessment of him when he's mature and then decide how to proceed.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

When you ask a question here, you will get asked for more information.....when you say things are one way....people ask for proof. The standard of acceptable proof of good hips and elbows are 1. OFA, 2. Penn Hips, 3. SV a stamps, 4. Canadian org certs....not "the vet said they are fine"...

This board is heavily populated and postings common by people who have a dog bred by a backyard breeder who are having problems and the BYB does not have the experience or knowledge or inclination to guide/assist them....and by people and orgs trying to rescue dogs dumped by overwhelmed or uncaring owners. 

The answers and posts on all breeding threads are colored by the knowledge of these problems and posts, and thus - there are no easy answers here. People care about the breed, they care that too many dogs are bred - sold - bought by knowledgeable ignorant people and that those dogs life expectancy and quality of life are compromised by the lack of knowledge and concern of John Q Pet Owner/breeder....so call them snobs - so what - their motivation is compassion not money...

IN GENERAL too - FWIW - "waiving" a stud fee for a puppy is not a bargin for the owner of a litter...it is not some big favor to the owner of a female.....stud fees generally are not going to cost the price of a puppy...

There seems to be a defensiveness and an unwillingness to be open about the male you want to breed...that makes people wonder all the more....posting his registered name, pedigree and OFA results etc will get you more positive input.

Lee


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am with Selzer on this one. 

Plus, it is very frustrating to see someone ask a simple question multiple times and not get an answer, just lots of judgmental questions. 

Yes, we all love this breed and we want this breed to be the best it can. But the hostility is pretty overwhelming at points. This board is here not only to socialize, but to educate. I don't see why it's so hard to answer the basic question and then point to threads that will help out a new person. Many people are run off this site by well meaning breed lovers. When polite education and simple answers are what us needed. 

OP, don't stud to a bitch with a known big fault. Just the same as not breeding to a bitch with a huge overbite, or floppy ears. Have standards you wish to uphold. Read up on genetics of coloring and hip dysplasia and DM. Do YOUR homework, so that you know what you you need to get the pup you want. 


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

If being upfront, blunt, and honest runs someone off....well, jeesh...it's the internet, folks. Someone once said, "if I went on a parenting forum and said, 'how do I keep my 15 month old from flooding the bathroom when I leave him alone for his bath?' you aren't going to see responses about plumbing or drains..." You are going to have people arguing, bluntly...that you shouldn't leave a 15 month old alone in the bathtub. In your line of thought (gsdsar) in my example, would you suggest to the parent ways to get the kid to stop flooding the bathroom while the parent was away (because *that's* the question being asked....they aren't looking for judgement on leaving the 15 month old alone in the bath).....

You come onto a GSD forum, filled with people from all walks of life, with all kinds of experiences with dogs, asking a question in the context of bringing potentially 12 more dogs into the world. You are going to get all kinds of responses.

Cliffson, yes of course all breeders can have puppies in shelters....can you honestly say that it is even, proportionally, that those that screen, temperament, work, and show their sires/bitches have just as many pups in shelters as BYB's?

Selzer, I agree that the bitch owners are mainly responsible, but does that mean we don't encourage and hold stud owners up to *some* standard and responsibility? Just because you *can* do something, doesn't mean you should....and when you come onto a forum, posting questions about a touchy subject, is it really shocking you don't get a bunch of, "that's great, I think you should breed, go for it!" Instead of questions about the dog/dogs being considered? And why is anyone who is questioning it considered a bully?


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> If being upfront, blunt, and honest runs someone off....well, jeesh...it's the internet, folks. Someone once said, "if I went on a parenting forum and said, 'how do I keep my 15 month old from flooding the bathroom when I leave him alone for his bath?' you aren't going to see responses about plumbing or drains..." You are going to have people arguing, bluntly...that you shouldn't leave a 15 month old alone in the bathtub. In your line of thought (gsdsar) in my example, would you suggest to the parent ways to get the kid to stop flooding the bathroom while the parent was away (because *that's* the question being asked....they aren't looking for judgement on leaving the 15 month old alone in the bath).....
> 
> You come onto a GSD forum, filled with people from all walks of life, with all kinds of experiences with dogs, asking a question in the context of bringing potentially 12 more dogs into the world. You are going to get all kinds of responses.
> 
> ...


Well said...


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> Yes, it is almost as crappy of an attitude as instead of answering a simple question, to give someone the third degree and to ask for t*he pedigree so that you all can chop it to pieces and label the breeders of said dogs as BYBs or Puppy Mills*. Whatever.
> 
> Personally, I think that the burden of a litter is on the bitch owner, not the stud dog owner. The stud dog owner needs to guard their dog's reputation. The bitch owner will use your dog if you let them, if you do not, they will go down the street to the next intact male, who might be a much poorer representative of the breed.
> 
> ...


I actually expected the opposite to happen. I think OP's dog comes from good breeding, judging by her previous posts. I bet the pedigree is a nice one (however, I don't know much at all about pedigrees...so take that with a grain of salt).

My husband used to help his stepdad with haying....pretty rough from what I hear, but a work-out like no other ...hope all goes well


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DaniFani said:


> If being upfront, blunt, and honest runs someone off....well, jeesh...it's the internet, folks. Someone once said, "if I went on a parenting forum and said, 'how do I keep my 15 month old from flooding the bathroom when I leave him alone for his bath?' you aren't going to see responses about plumbing or drains..." You are going to have people arguing, bluntly...that you shouldn't leave a 15 month old alone in the bathtub. In your line of thought (gsdsar) in my example, would you suggest to the parent ways to get the kid to stop flooding the bathroom while the parent was away (because *that's* the question being asked....they aren't looking for judgement on leaving the 15 month old alone in the bath).....
> 
> You come onto a GSD forum, filled with people from all walks of life, with all kinds of experiences with dogs, asking a question in the context of bringing potentially 12 more dogs into the world. You are going to get all kinds of responses.
> 
> ...


No one here wants dogs in shelters. It's kind of putting the cart before the horse to tell people not to breed based on the assumption that they won't screen buyers or are somehow going to be worse at screening buyers than all the people that already do. This board is also for German Shepherd Dogs which will effectively cease to exist if no one is breeding them. Leaving a baby unsupervised in the bathtub is stupid and criminally neglectful. Breeding dogs is not.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Liesje said:


> No one here wants dogs in shelters. It's kind of putting the cart before the horse to tell people not to breed based on the assumption that they won't screen buyers or are somehow going to be worse at screening buyers than all the people that already do. This board is also for German Shepherd Dogs which will effectively cease to exist if no one is breeding them. Leaving a baby unsupervised in the bathtub is stupid and criminally neglectful. Breeding dogs is not.


Oh my goodness, going to the opposite extreme, "GSDs will cease to exist if no one breeds them" is a little silly and dramatic. And I don't understand how telling someone to hold off on breeding because of A, B or C is "putting the cart before the horse." Should they just have the puppies and let everything else figure itself out?? I never said she wasn't going to screen buyers, but I think it's fair to guess that someone off the street says, "hey my dog's in heat, want to breed" isn't going to be excellent at screening buyers. And I guess I disagree, *certain* people, breeding *certain* dogs, I think can be "stupid" and in some countries is absolutely "criminal." IE...the person hasn't jumped through the necessary hoops to be able to breed (in that country).

I never said to the OP to not breed their dog. And frankly, OP has been very open and accepting of everyone's questions and concerns. It's other posters that are all up in arms and getting offended. She says she wants to do what she needs, is trying to research, etc....She sounds like she is on the right track with getting everything in order with her dog, and needs a little help with choosing a bitch.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> No one here wants dogs in shelters. It's kind of putting the cart before the horse to tell people not to breed based on the assumption that they won't screen buyers or are somehow going to be worse at screening buyers than all the people that already do. This board is also for German Shepherd Dogs which will effectively cease to exist if no one is breeding them. Leaving a baby unsupervised in the bathtub is stupid and criminally neglectful. Breeding dogs is not.


Amen. It's also a legal activity and the sale of a product, whether we wish to think of dogs as property or not. 

Who has the right to tell someone not to breed their dog.

It's fine for anyone to suggest things that might be good to do in advance of breeding but there are no commandments cast in stone.

There are several breeders that I would purchase a dog from untitled parents, with no problem at all. If titles or particular health tests are important to someone then they should buy from a breeder who does all that.

I can make up my own mind and so can people who wish to breed.

Suggestions are one thing but must do lists are just opinion.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

interesting thread. to the op...if you have to ask about whether to exclude breeding to a bitch with a color fault, you have much learning to do before you even think of breeding. the suggestion to find a mentor is good. the suggestion to guard your boy's reputation is good. the suggestion to be more forthcoming with information is surely reasonable. lots of knowledge in this thread.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Oh my goodness, going to the opposite extreme, "GSDs will cease to exist if no one breeds them" is a little silly and dramatic. *And I don't understand how telling someone to hold off on breeding because of A, B or C is "putting the cart before the horse." Should they just have the puppies and let everything else figure itself out?? **I never said she wasn't going to screen buyers, but I think it's fair to guess that someone off the street says, "hey my dog's in heat, want to breed" isn't going to be excellent at screening buyers.*


Well said DaniFani!

The fact that people are “tired” of how these threads play out is indicative of how big a problem ill-informed breeding is in this country.

I don’t understand the logic of some posters on this thread - because something has been said a million times on this forum to different OPs = we shouldn’t bother asking new posters to step back and think about what they are doing. 

Sure, it is everyone’s legal right to breed their dog if that is what they want to do, but to suggest that we should encourage that is puzzling to me  

To me, the bottom line is… if the OP needs to ask the question in the thread title, they have a lot more work to do before they should be thinking about breeding their dog.


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## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

just say no.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> Well said DaniFani!
> 
> The fact that people are “tired” of how these threads play out is indicative of how big a problem ill-informed breeding is in this country.
> 
> ...


I never suggested encouraging it. Bold

Just because someone on the internet lays out a bunch of rules to be applied before considering breeding has no meaning.

People can suggest anything they want but Dani Fanis "truth and honesty" may not be yours or mine.
So who is the ultimate breed god who gets to decide who should and should not breed?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Since when does anyone need approval from the people here to breed their dog? 

OP came on here and laid out her scenario. People gave their honest opinions and some people fluffed their answers to make the OP feel better and not storm off like so many do given this scenario. Some people gave their typical against the grain type answers too. We all had our opinions.

That's the beauty of the internet. We're here to discuss. Everyone has a right to their own opinions. It's up to the OP what they want to do now that they've been given plenty of opinions and some very good information.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/sr-spay-neuter-laws.aspx


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## VickyHilton (Apr 5, 2013)

I actually thought the thread was pretty constructive for the most part. The OP was gracious under pressure and the defenders-of-the-breed reasonable in requests for proof. When I first saw the post, I was tempted to reply "brace yourself!" but I read a lot of insightful questions and many attempts to educate tactfully. I have learned to see my own dog in a more unbiased and empirical light because of threads like these.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

For owners of quality females, picking out a suitable stud is serious business. I rode with a friend of mine to look at a stud he was considering for his Sch3 FH female. After carefully studying the dog's pedigree, considering his health screenings, we rode over 100 miles to see the dog in person and to watch him train. When my friend got there, he was even able to put on a bite sleeve and work the dog himself, applying some pressure to see how the dog reacted. He still has not made his decision on who to use because there are so many great, proven dogs out there. Point is, a male has to be more than just a good dog to be a good stud dog. He has to be amazing.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> I never suggested encouraging it. Bold
> 
> Just because someone on the internet lays out a bunch of rules to be applied before considering breeding has no meaning.
> 
> ...


Woah, if you're going to quote me in such a tone, I suggest you quote me correctly. I never said anything I was saying was "truth." I was stating my *opinion* and several times said "imo." And I said "honestly and bluntly" if you want to actually quote me.

No one is trying to be a "breed god." My goodness. Some of you sure are using some extreme tactics and wording here. "Breed God" "existence of the breed would be gone if no one bred" "truth and honesty"....I thought people were very kind to the OP. And I think OP was more gracious than most in her replies.

Just because it's someone's right to breed their dog, doesn't mean that those of us that watch dogs get put down on a weekly/daily basis, are going to sit back and say "welp, it's their right...oh well." 

Here's some extreme tactic right back at ya....have you ever held a dog that was being euthanized? Have you ever held one after another after another? When you do that, the idea of quietly sitting by while a person talks about potentially bringing 12 more dogs into the world so flippantly (not directed at OP...meaning in general), just isn't happening. My experiences don't give me the right to be rude or mean, but I can absolutely ask questions, try to educate a little, and give someone a perspective they may have not thought of before. Man oh man. :crazy:


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

carmspack said:


> https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/sr-spay-neuter-laws.aspx


This is where we are headed if the amount of over-population and un-regulated breeding continues. If people are continually breeding their dogs, unchecked, taking little to no responsibility, they will just make it so that owners need to neuter or spay. Instead of fixing the problem (owners breeding dogs with little to no experience, lack of education, lack of regulation), they will just make us all alter our dogs. I, for one, don't want to see that happen. And that is *one* reason I think it's important that when people come on here considering breeding, they get lots of views, knowledge, and suggestions.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

carmspack said:


> https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/sr-spay-neuter-laws.aspx


Sheesh.

They should at least offer the option of a vasectomy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> Woah, if you're going to quote me in such a tone, I suggest you quote me correctly. I never said anything I was saying was "truth." I was stating my *opinion* and several times said "imo." And I said "honestly and bluntly" if you want to actually quote me.
> 
> No one is trying to be a "breed god." My goodness. Some of you sure are using some extreme tactics and wording here. "Breed God" "existence of the breed would be gone if no one bred" "truth and honesty"....I thought people were very kind to the OP. And I think OP was more gracious than most in her replies.
> 
> ...


The thing is, it is not breeding dogs that causes dogs to land in shelters. Yes, yes, there are some who think it is all kool to have a litter of puppies and somewhere around week 4, they choke and drop bitch and litter off to a shelter. That happens. But the majority of dogs in shelters come from pet owners who failed to research what kind of dog they were buying, and failed to train and manage the dog properly so that they are either having behavioral issues with the dog, or they simply have no bond with the dog, so dumping the dog is as natural as drinking beer after mowing the lawn.

There will always be dogs in shelters. And there will ALWAYS be poorly bred GSDs out there. The puppy mills aren't going anywhere. The many, many people who do not ask ANY questions before putting PB dog A with PB dog B to get a PB litter -- they aren't going anywhere. The ONLY people putting the brakes on the idea of breeding are the ONLY people who MIGHT do a half way decent job of it. 

There are an overage of adult dogs in shelters, but often there is a shortage of young puppies, so much so, that shelters have gone OUTSIDE the US to import puppies in from Mexico and Puerto Rico. I would say the over-population/dogs in shelters problem is bigger than breeders. Education needs to happen but we are usually only preaching to the choir.


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

2 perfect dogs start with 90points , let's say have 6 puppies(100 point total, body/health/temperament/drive)
out of the 6 puppies, 2 of them below standard 75 points, 2 of them normal 85 points, and 2 of them are high standard 90+ points. So a normal guy comes in bought the 75 points puppy, then he decides oh i want to breed my dog, then find anther 75 points dog to breed.
so 2 x 75 points breed produced 6 puppies
2 puppies below their standard 50 points, 2 puppies their normal standard 68 points, 
and 2 puppies reach their full standard 75 points

if this continues, our breed will eventually become pitbull, inbreeding produces some unstable temperament, breed become over populated, people get rid of them for 50 bucks on craigslist(imagine if someone pays 50 bucks for a pup, would they pay 70 buck an hour for good trainer to train the dog?) , without training, dog gets uncontrollerable and so on so on......

this is my view


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I stay away from these threads cause I have never bred dogs.....don't know the first thing about breeding dogs. I could sit here and type word for word what I have read on threads like these and pretend I know everything about breeding but.....
A lot of people on threads like these who are dishing out all the "advice" (and I say that loosely) on hip scores, titling, testing etc have never done it themselves and are just going on about stuff they have read.
Everyones an EXPERT......X being the unknown quantity.....SPURT being a drip under pressure.....


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

selzer said:


> The thing is, it is not breeding dogs that causes dogs to land in shelters. Yes, yes, there are some who think it is all kool to have a litter of puppies and somewhere around week 4, they choke and drop bitch and litter off to a shelter. That happens. But the majority of dogs in shelters come from pet owners who failed to research what kind of dog they were buying, and failed to train and manage the dog properly so that they are either having behavioral issues with the dog, or they simply have no bond with the dog, so dumping the dog is as natural as drinking beer after mowing the lawn.
> 
> There will always be dogs in shelters. And there will ALWAYS be poorly bred GSDs out there. The puppy mills aren't going anywhere. The many, many people who do not ask ANY questions before putting PB dog A with PB dog B to get a PB litter -- they aren't going anywhere. The ONLY people putting the brakes on the idea of breeding are the ONLY people who MIGHT do a half way decent job of it.
> 
> There are an overage of adult dogs in shelters, but often there is a shortage of young puppies, so much so, that shelters have gone OUTSIDE the US to import puppies in from Mexico and Puerto Rico. I would say the over-population/dogs in shelters problem is bigger than breeders. Education needs to happen but we are usually only preaching to the choir.


Selzer, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. And, I know you offer great advice on a lot of topics on this forum : ) 

But, I find it very aggravating when you position yourself as an authority on the current state of the shelter/rescue system when it is clear - to anyone who is actually involved in these efforts - that you have no clue what you are talking about!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> But, I find it very aggravating when you position yourself as an authority on the current state of the shelter/rescue system when it is clear - to anyone who is actually involved in these efforts - that you have no clue what you are talking about!


Same could be said for the many posters going on about breeding dogs.....how many of them have actually done it.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

sparra said:


> Same could be said for the many posters going on about breeding dogs.....how many of them have actually done it.


I don't see your point. 

I don't have to do it to know I shouldn't breed my dog.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I don't see your point.
> 
> I don't have to do it to know I shouldn't breed my dog.


No but before giving advice to others on what they must do in order to breed theirs, a bit of experience might be helpful.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

sparra said:


> No but before giving advice to others on what they must do in order to breed theirs, a bit of experience might be helpful.



There is no way to assess everyone's level of experience on an Internet forum.

The one who solicits the advice has to decide which advice is good and which can be thrown out the window. 

Part of the fun of being on a forum... you get all kinds of interesting and kooky opinions. Everyone's mileage varies, and everything is best taken with a grain of salt.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Seltzer,

When was the last time you visited shelters or were involved in rescuing gsds? I stay out of giving advice about breeding because I know nothing about it. I suggest you do the same when speaking about shelters and rescues. 

One thing I can say for certain about breeding is that if most people who bred gsds thought it involved more than just putting 2 nice looking, intact dogs together, the rescues wouldn't be overflowing and the german shepherd dog breed wouldn't be NUMBER ONE in congenital and inheritable health problems. 

http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/GSD_hereditary_diseases.pdf

http://www.hsvma.org/assets/pdfs/guide-to-congenital-and-heritable-disorders.pdf


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DaniFani I have no problems with people giving their advice about breeding but anytime a thread about *gasp* BREEDING a dog shows up in the BREEDING section of this forum it's like we can count 4, 3, 2, 1....someone bringing up all the dogs dying in shelters. Perhaps the OP personally funds a no-kill shelter, how would we know? If you go back and read my posts you'll probably find that I was borderline harsh with the OP opposing the scenario so what is the problem? I will make breeding decisions based on the actual dogs that factor into the equation.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

@ Sparra, you live in Australia. I don’t expect you to understand the extent of the problem of indiscriminate breeding in the United States.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

selzer said:


> There are an overage of adult dogs in shelters, but often there is a shortage of young puppies, so much so, that shelters have gone OUTSIDE the US to import puppies in from Mexico and Puerto Rico.


Boy, I wish this were true where I live. Maybe it's true in some parts of the U.S., but definitely not in the Deep South. At one point this Spring, my local kill shelter in a small city had 70 puppies, ranging from newborns on up. At any given time, we have at least 5 runs of litters in quarantine, and several more runs of older puppies (12-16 weeks). It's not uncommon to have someone drive up in a pick up truck and drop off an "oops" litter any given weekend. I'm close to Alabama where OP's family is -- in the Deep South, it's puppy season year round, and the shelters are full of 'em. Shelters down here euthanize lots of puppies, even though there are enthusiastic efforts to transport them to the Northeast where demand is higher and supply lower.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> The thing is, it is not breeding dogs that causes dogs to land in shelters. Yes, yes, there are some who think it is all kool to have a litter of puppies and somewhere around week 4, they choke and drop bitch and litter off to a shelter. That happens. But the majority of *dogs in shelters come from pet owners who failed to research what kind of dog they were buying, and failed to train and manage the dog properly so that they are either having behavioral issues with the dog, or they simply have no bond with the dog, so dumping the dog is as natural as drinking beer after mowing the lawn.*
> 
> There will always be dogs in shelters. And there will ALWAYS be poorly bred GSDs out there. The puppy mills aren't going anywhere. The many, many people who do not ask ANY questions before putting PB dog A with PB dog B to get a PB litter -- they aren't going anywhere. The ONLY people putting the brakes on the idea of breeding are the ONLY people who MIGHT do a half way decent job of it.
> 
> There are an overage of adult dogs in shelters, but often there is a shortage of young puppies, so much so, that shelters have gone OUTSIDE the US to import puppies in from Mexico and Puerto Rico. I would say the over-population/dogs in shelters problem is bigger than breeders. Education needs to happen but we are usually only preaching to the choir.


I absolutely agree, and that is definitely an aspect of why our shelter situation is the way it is....an aspect that many (myself included) forget. I guess I look at that perspective the same way you look at mine....there will always be stupid, uneducated people...while neither one of us should put most of the blame on either side....I think both (owners and "breeders") contribute significantly to the problem....

On a side note, do you have any resources talking about shelters importing puppies from Mexico and Puerto Rico because they are low on puppies? I understand rescues "rescuing" puppies/dogs from these countries.....but importing puppies because they are low on them?? That's just crazy! I'm not doubting you, I just think it's nuts!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Magwart said:


> Boy, I wish this were true where I live. Maybe it's true in some parts of the U.S., but definitely not in the Deep South. At one point this Spring, my local kill shelter in a small city had 70 puppies, ranging from newborns on up. At any given time, we have at least 5 runs of litters in quarantine, and several more runs of older puppies (12-16 weeks). It's not uncommon to have someone drive up in a pick up truck and drop off an "oops" litter any given weekend. I'm close to Alabama where OP's family is -- in the Deep South, it's puppy season year round, and the shelters are full of 'em. Shelters down here euthanize lots of puppies, even though there are enthusiastic efforts to transport them to the Northeast where demand is higher and supply lower.


Or worse, someone drops off the box of puppies and tie the mom to the door....in the middle of the night....I've seen some crazy stuff.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> @ Sparra, you live in Australia. I don’t expect you to understand the extent of the problem of indiscriminate breeding in the United States.


Oh yes....that's right....forgive me.....all of our shelters are empty......


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

sparra said:


> Oh yes....that's right....forgive me.....all of our shelters are empty......


Sorry to hear that you are facing the same problem in Australia.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

One of the first threads I read when I joined this forum was someone saying that each person who bought a dog from a breeder caused a dog to die in a shelter. 
Their solution was for all breeders to quit for awhile.

I'm with Sparra here we are again.

Why do so many I want to breed my dog threads turn into dog overflowing an dying in shelters and keeping rescues busy?

The Op asked about color. Look where we are.

@ Dani Fani. Nothing personal, I used you as an example. 

There is too much personalizing and intellectual answers and not enough recognition of the society we live in. The number of decent breeders will never keep up with the demand and shelters will always be near full.

I take into account and listen to what the breeders on here have to say but most of the advice on what makes the requirements' must be to breed" comes from people who have not bred dogs.

I can suggest what I want or like in a breeder but it's not up to me to tell someone else what they ought to do.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> Sorry to hear that you are facing the same problem in Australia.


It is a world wide problem not just the USA but it has more to do with the people BUYING the dogs than the people BREEDING them IMO.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> There is too much personalizing and intellectual answers and not enough recognition of the society we live in. *The number of decent breeders will never keep up with the demand and shelters will always be near full.*
> 
> I take into account and listen to what the breeders on here have to say but most of the advice on what makes the requirements' must be to breed" comes from people who have not bred dogs.
> 
> I can suggest what I want or like in a breeder but it's not up to me to tell someone else what they ought to do.


And, you are okay with that (the bolded part)? If so, that is the difference between you and me.

I am a cultural anthropologist. You seem to suggest that the way society currently views dogs is "static," I disagree.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

So who is going to decide who can own a dog and who can't.
You can't have it both ways. Americans are very vocal about their rights......I can't imagine how laws to govern who gets to own a dog and who doesn't would go down.
I don't think it will ever change sad as that is.....us humans are just scum sometimes.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> And, you are okay with that (the bolded part)? If so, that is the difference between you and me.
> 
> I am a cultural anthropologist. You seem to suggest that the way society currently views dogs is "static," I disagree.


It doesn't matter whether I agree with the way things are or not. We are a consumer driven society and dogs are part of that. Maybe some day it will be different but not any time soon.

I once suggested local legislation, to cut down on over population and that went over like a lead brick. You should know that from your own thread on legislation. 

I don't know about other countries but in the U.S. laws of almost any kind aren't popular right now. Especially anything to do with our right to have, keep, breed and purchase as many dogs as we like.

Beat me to it Sparra.


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

sparra said:


> So who is going to decide who can own a dog and who can't.
> You can't have it both ways. Americans are very vocal about their rights......I can't imagine how laws to govern who gets to own a dog and who doesn't would go down.
> I don't think it will ever change sad as that is.....us humans are just scum sometimes.



This is not about who decides who can own, who can breed
All people saying here is If people does not have enough knowledge and they do not have a proven dog. It is better for them to learn more about breeding and get some proven dog before they breed. I'm not knowledgeable enough to determine which dog qualify to breed and which dog is compatible with each other. But I do know if the poster ask this kind of question, they are not ready for breeding.


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## AngelaA6 (Jan 20, 2013)

Asking is a good thing though, that's how people gain knowledge. Hopefully the OP will be able to take a good bit of information from this and learn more about breeding before deciding if they even want to pursue that avenue and find a mentor. I'm all for great knowledgeable breeders that want to improve our current breed and bring it back to the original GSD that Max Von Stephanitz created.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Back in the day Capt. Max would have been run off of here.

Can't you see him asking about throwing a few herding breeds together to come up with a new breed. 

I wonder what his qualifications were. Did he work and train his dogs?
How about their health and temperament? What was he trying to do mixing breeds? How did he test his dogs to know if they were breed worthy and on and on........

There was a thread about Goldendoodles the other day. A lot of people don't like them or the idea of them.

Why not mix them. Are they going to be in worse shape than either breed individually. Or are we afraid they will just wind up in rescue or shelters?


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Back in the day Capt. Max would have been run off of here.
> 
> Can't you see him asking about throwing a few herding breeds together to come up with a new breed.
> 
> ...


No one is trying to create a new breed here, this is a german shepherd forum. People here love german shepherd breed and at least majority of us would like to preserve this breed with high standard, perhaps we're different from your view.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> It doesn't matter whether I agree with the way things are or not. We are a consumer driven society and dogs are part of that. Maybe some day it will be different but not any time soon.
> 
> I once suggested local legislation, to cut down on over population and that went over like a lead brick. *You should know that from your own thread on legislation.*


Jack’s Dad - I have always liked you! In fact, even when I disagree with you, I respect that you are always very upfront with your point-of-view. 

Yes, you are right, I should know better than to expect people on this forum to share my point-of-view given my experience on the other thread(s) you referenced…. lol.

But, that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t continue to put my POV forward. It is one part of helping change "society's" thinking.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

dioworld said:


> No one is trying to create a new breed here, this is a german shepherd forum. People here love german shepherd breed and at least majority of us would like to preserve this breed with high standard, perhaps we're different from your view.


That's funny dioworld.
You need to look at some of my old threads. I'm a huge defender of the breed standard. I just don't think it's my place to tell others whether they should breed or not. 

LifeofRiley. 

I too have always appreciated your well thought out my responses and look forward to your posts even when we don't agree. Keep on keeping on and hopefully you will make a difference.

I don't dislike people for not agreeing just frustrated. Where I live there are not a lot of dog sports etc... so I see and deal with run of the mill (like myself) folks who have family companion dogs in other words pets.

These people, myself included probably own 75 or more % of the dogs in the country. They don't go to shows or do Schutzhund or any of that stuff. Most spoil their dogs and then some of them have problems.

So when I see people worked over on here I wonder what good it does. Information, is great but most of this is opinion. Attraction works a lot better IMO than agendas.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to this "Back in the day Capt. Max would have been run off of here." --- OH very much quite the opposite !
he was very clear and authoritarian. He never asked for opinion . The GSD would never have been created by a committee . Do look into his study , his book . In the tree of the breed there were many branches pruned . He even has a section on what will bring about the ruination of the breed.

"Can't you see him asking about throwing a few herding breeds together to come up with a new breed. "
Breed is a relatively new concept . Dogs were always appreciated and bred for purpose, work , function . Tools that helped , whether dogs to rid vermin, turn spits, bring cattle to market or sheep to pasture or containment . Those dogs that excelled at herding were indigenous , as he documented in his book showing dogs in various nations each with a distinct type developed by the environment and the matter in which they best served a purpose. One herder would eye his competitors dogs , reputation of best performers would travel , and those dogs were the ones chosen to improve the next generations ability. Dogs were not bred for commerce or pets . Dogs were bred to replace .

"I wonder what his qualifications were. Did he work and train his dogs?"

"he" did not have to . The dogs were tested by the herders , who were his advisors, who he turned to many a time when the quality of the temperament started to stray or unravel. Many times he made a spectacle in a public forum to reveal the dogs for the poor specimens that they were . There was little sentiment . 

"How about their health and temperament? What was he trying to do mixing breeds? How did he test his dogs to know if they were breed worthy and on and on........"

Once again there was no mixing breeds . Seriously do have a look at the history of the breed.

the way it stands now is a bit of a shambles. The GSD doesn't represent something anymore , by and large . As a working breed there should be an expectation of performance . The GSD should be synonymous with workability. If I were to evaluate 10 dogs I should have a problem deciding which of the 7 or 8 I would want most. Instead I think , I would have a hard time finding one or two that are okay. That is the dilemma of any one using GSD for work -- guide, SAR, police . So the GSDs keep on being imported --- or passed over for other breeds.

OP page one "He has a beautiful pedigree." ???? maybe maybe not . Depends on what you are looking at , titles, or the genetics .

"I was wanting more of a solid black female for a better chance at a solid black puppy. (Father's mother, and father were solid black. Grandmother was a black and tan saddel). Could we get a pretty markings, pretty colored litter out of this match?" 

this should never be a selection criteria .


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Carmen. What you were quoting was meant to be tongue in cheek and not to be taken seriously.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well , frankly I was surprised you would say something like that.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

People can change their views, I used to defend OP that asked questions from being interrogated and mugged often by people with no breeding experience and an agenda in other aspects of the breed. I thought we ran them off and were borderline ignorant towards them as opposed to educating. If people work with their dogs, expecting learning and change with the same blunt and honest approach they do in these threads, I understand why the training topic is full of issues. BUT now I let them get mugged and feathered, it is more amusing to see the carnage than to educate the OP or more importantly the pseudo police. So I have changed, so I guess there is hope for the OP's that come with questions to do things that don't meet everyone's approval; that they will change their intent based on content of many experts and not take these approaches personally ........eyes really rolled!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Zellie&Major said:


> We are looking to breed our Black and Tan male... He has a beautiful pedigree. However, we were approached by a man who says his female GSD is in heat and he would like our male to sire her pups. He sent me a photograph and called her a white German shepherd, but she looks more like a solid sandy tan to me.
> 
> Now I thought because the white gene was a masking gene if she was purebred and white, that she would be solid white. Is this correct? And if she is a purebred what would the pups from a almost solid black male (tan on his paws and lower legs) and a sandy tan female most likely be? I've requested that he send her papers to me, but haven't heard back yet. Just wanted to have my answer ready when I did.
> 
> I was wanting more of a solid black female for a better chance at a solid black puppy. (Father's mother, and father were solid black. Grandmother was a black and tan saddel). Could we get a pretty markings, pretty colored litter out of this match? TIA


Probably already said, but if the mother and father were solid black, they could only produce solid black... If your dog isn't solid black, then the parents are not


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I honestly get tired of reading posts like this, it's one thing to try and educate someone, it's another to shove one's opinion "that is always right" down their throats.

There will always be dogs/puppies in shelters (very very sad), there will always be people breeding who shouldn't be breeding, there will always be people who have dogs they can't handle , 

While one may not agree with 'one' who breeds without thought, as I've gotten older and hopefully a little more wiser, I've learned you can either offer advice and it will be taken or people are going to do whatever they want despite it. It doesn't have to shoved down their throat and make them look stupid.



I choose to spend my time taking care of whats in my own backyard. I guess if more did that, we wouldn't see so many 'issues' posted on this forum

Now I'm going to take a nice relaxing hike with my Masi girl who is a perfect dog


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Zellie&Major said:


> We are looking to breed our Black and Tan male... He has a beautiful pedigree. However, we were approached by a man who says his female GSD is in heat and he would like our male to sire her pups. He sent me a photograph and called her a white German shepherd, but she looks more like a solid sandy tan to me.
> 
> Now I thought because the white gene was a masking gene if she was purebred and white, that she would be solid white. Is this correct? And if she is a purebred what would the pups from a almost solid black male (tan on his paws and lower legs) and a sandy tan female most likely be? I've requested that he send her papers to me, but haven't heard back yet. Just wanted to have my answer ready when I did.
> 
> I was wanting more of a solid black female for a better chance at a solid black puppy. (Father's mother, and father were solid black. Grandmother was a black and tan saddel). Could we get a pretty markings, pretty colored litter out of this match? TIA


While I agree that color and markings should be the very last thing to consider when breeding dogs, and maybe I missed it, but I'm not sure anyone has answered your question???

I *AM NOT A BREEDER* so take this information for what it's worth!!!

I know you were asked to supply pedigrees which would help people answer your question ... someone might spot a familiar name in the pedigrees which we know carry the white gene ... didn't see where you posted them but may have missed them??? The tan color of the bitch could be from the "fading" gene??? or a white gene or both??? And of course your boy's pedigree is also instrumental in determining the color of any pups you might get.

Anyway, I'll try to help you ... 

A WGSD can have tanish/creamish/coat colors and points ... I had one guy who had an actual rust colored mask as a puppy, I've seen others that have rust colored pigment on the ears, tail tip, etc. When you breed a WGSD to a colored dog which doesn't carry the white masking gene of course you'll only get colored pups. If colored pups are produced, so much of the color you'd get depends on the color genes the WGSD carries (and again the pedigrees might be helpful in answering your question). 

I've had a couple ... their father was black/red saddleback with no white genes, their mother was white, the resulting pups were all black/tan saddlebacks. I've seen others with only one parent carrying the white gene, and depending on if the pups had a "fading" type gene or not, they all looked like normal colored GSDs.

Hope this might help ... I'm sure WhiteShepherd and others will jump in and correct me if I'm wrong!!!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> *There are an overage of adult dogs in shelters, but often there is a shortage of young puppies*, so much so, that shelters have gone OUTSIDE the US to import puppies in from Mexico and Puerto Rico.


I am so tired of hearing this same old, crappy statement. Where do you think the "overage" of adult dogs comes from (general you in this case, but if Selzer wants to answer, she is more than welcome to share her vast experience in this area)? Do you think they spring, fully grown and adult, from behind a rock?

The adolescent dog you see in that shelter run was once a puppy that was purchased on impulse in the Sportsman's Warehouse parking lot the year before. Or was a pup given away by a friend of a friend or a neighbor. Or was found on Craigslist.

The adult dog you see in the shelter was once a puppy that might have lived with one family for years...until they moved, or the neighbors complained about barking or a child was born. 

They were ALL puppies at one time, easily found and impulsively brought into the home. So, yes! There is a problem with an over abundance of easily available, poorly bred puppies. Just because we (the public) don't see them in shelters until they are 8+ months old and up doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. 

If puppies were harder to find, do you think people would have to put more effort and thought into bringing them into their homes? I certainly do. And if people put more effort and thought into it, do you think they would be as quick to surrender that puppy when it is no longer cute, when they need to move or their hours change at work, or any of the absolutely screwed reasons that most people surrender for? I certainly don't. Easy come, easy go. 

As for the puppies that are coming in from outside the U.S.? What a crock! That isn't because there aren't enough puppies to go around here in the U.S.! That is because some American noticed flea ridden, tick infested street dogs while on a warm weather vacation and decided to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!! Too bad rich Americans don't vacation in the inner city slums or the poor rural communities in this country, because there are more than enough flea ridden, tick infested puppies to meet the need to save the world one puppy at a time right there. That reminds me of the do-gooders who raise money to feed hungry children in some far off country while there are hundreds of thousands of children going to bed hungry right here in this country. Do those "Feed The Children Of (Fill In The Blank Country)" campaigns mean there are no hungry children in this country? Heck NO!!!!
Sheilah


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

^^^absolutely beautifully said^^^


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sit/stay I agree with the puppies being brought into the US..

To add to that, I have a friend who is constantly importing "Puerta Rican" puppies and adopting them out..It really bugs me to no end, as you said, what about the dogs/puppies in THIS country? The PR dogs I've seen have alot of behavioral issues and I know a couple of people who adopted put them down when they hit a year old because of it..

I'm sorry, but it also bugs me when they are having these big adoptathons of dogs brought up north from down south..Just because they are getting more "coverage" people flock to them, what about the ones sitting in our local shelters? 

Ok, will stop rambling, just something else that bugs me


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And why is heartworm a growing concern up here, and brucellosis is making a come-back here, because they brough a bajillion dogs up here from Katrina. But whatever. 

And, for those of you are hissing at me, and putting Ts in my name to tick me off, I didn't pull the shelters-importing-puppies from out of my backside. In fact it was ABC news. Read all three pages folks. It IS happening: 300,000 Imported Puppies Prompt Rabies Concerns - ABC News

I do not hang out in shelters, partly because our county's only shelter routinely gets parvo and executes a hundred or more dogs at a time. It is just something I do not want to bring home. Yes, my dogs ARE vaccinated, but one always hears about other strains of the disease, and the many things that dogs may have that there are no vaccinations for. 

All the times I have gone there, to drop off food or bleach though, I walk through, and I see a load of pits and pit mixes. Usually I see 3 or 4 GSDs -- all adults. Any that are not marked as aggressive are always on hold for rescue. Which means we must have some very active rescue-oriented people here which is awesome.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

That article is from 2007.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sit said:


> As for the puppies that are coming in from outside the U.S.? What a crock! That isn't because there aren't enough puppies to go around here in the U.S.! That is because some American noticed flea ridden, tick infested street dogs while on a warm weather vacation and decided to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!! Too bad rich Americans don't vacation in the inner city slums or the poor rural communities in this country, because there are more than enough flea ridden, tick infested puppies to meet the need to save the world one puppy at a time right there. That reminds me of the do-gooders who raise money to feed hungry children in some far off country while there are hundreds of thousands of children going to bed hungry right here in this country. Do those "Feed The Children Of (Fill In The Blank Country)" campaigns mean there are no hungry children in this country? Heck NO!!!!
> Sheilah


According to ABC News, shelters are importing puppies because of a shortage of puppies. Call it a crock if you want.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> That article is from 2007.


So? There was not pending mandatory Spay/Neuter legislation, neuter everything on four legs, pet-overpopulation crisis, commercials about animal suffering, six years ago? Six years ago is not ancient history. 

I could understand if the article was from 1987, but 2007 is newer than my car, which makes it current events.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> People can change their views, I used to defend OP that asked questions from being interrogated and mugged often by people with no breeding experience and an agenda in other aspects of the breed. I thought we ran them off and were borderline ignorant towards them as opposed to educating. *If people work with their dogs, expecting learning and change with the same blunt and honest approach they do in these threads, I understand why the training topic is full of issues:*). BUT now I let them get mugged and feathered, it is more amusing to see the carnage than to educate the OP or more importantly the pseudo police. *So I have changed, so I guess there is hope for the OP's that come with questions to do things that don't meet everyone's approval; that they will change their intent based on content of many experts and not take these approaches personally ........eyes really rolled!*



I have no idea if you are talking about any of my posts or not, but…

In my post to Jack’s Dad, I am talking about _cultural change_, not changing any given individual’s opinion on a specific topic over the course of one (or several) threads…. lol. I was building on some thoughts expressed in another thread that Jack’s Dad referenced. 

Culture is dynamic, not static. Shifts in norms and practices unfold over time. _(btw: per one of the bolded parts of your post, I think this is also a great way to think about training)_

As has been mentioned on another thread, progress has been made in reducing the national euthanasia rate over the past 40 years. Significant shifts in how we - as a culture - view, value and care for dogs is one factor that has contributed to these national numbers. 

But, the national numbers do not tell the full story - the picture still looks very bleak in some states, regions, towns and neighborhoods.

To those of you who say the status quo will never change, I disagree. The history of societies around the world is littered with beliefs and practices that were cast aside because they were no longer deemed relevant, useful or wise. 

To the OP, this post has nothing to do with you. Sorry about that. Sometimes threads take some interesting twists and turns. Feel free to bring everyone back on topic


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> According to ABC News, shelters are importing puppies because of a shortage of puppies. Call it a crock if you want.


I am unclear about which importing issue you are speaking to? The importing of puppies from the southern states to the northern states? Or the importing of puppies form out of the country?

If you are speaking of the importation of puppies from southern shelters, where there is clearly a huge over abundance, to adopters (and in some cases shelters and rescues) in northern states, that is due mostly to regional differences in availability. And for some people (individuals and organizations), it is a quick, easy buck to be made. It caters to the adopter who is all for "saving a life"...as long as they get exactly what they want. Picking up a phone and telling the voice on the other end that you want a fluffy rescue under the age of 5 months and then being able to pick that rescue up in the parking lot of a Dunkin' Donuts right off the freeway four days later is as close to one stop shopping as you can get. 

Are there regional differences in what is available for adoption at the local animal shelter? Absolutely! Take an internet stroll through the shelters that make up the Los Angeles county network and count how many Chihuahuas are available. Then take that same internet stroll through the animal shelter in Portland, Oregon. Tell me there isn't a difference in the number of Chihuahuas available in the two regions.

There are shelters in various parts of this country where they euthanize puppies by the barrel full. Not much of a shortage there.

As for bringing in puppies from out of the country? Yes! It is a crock and in NO WAY indicative of a puppy shortage in this country. I never said you pulled it out of your "back side". I said it was a crock, spurred on by idiot tourists.

Latest souvenir from Puerto Rico? Stray dogs - Health - Pet health | NBC News 

The idea that someone would spend thousands of dollars to "rescue" a stray from Peurto Rico while there are tens of thousands of dogs being euthanized right here is mind boggling to me. But you can't fix stupid.
Sheilah


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with rescues pulling dogs from high kill shelters in the parts of the country that have little to no adoption traffic in order to move them to areas where there is more interest in adoption. 

It is a fact that some animal control facilities do not even allow for adoption - it is an automatic euthanasia. Other animal control facilities just don't serve a populace that is looking to adopt.

In my opinion, it is great that the internet (and dedicated volunteers) have allowed for better coordination and cooperation between shelters and rescues in different parts of the country.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sit, Stay, Ok, gotcha. The ABC pages did suggest that people were bringing them in by the thousands to adopt out as rescues, but that shelters were also importing them because people want puppies. 

I wish they hadn't brought all those dogs up from down south, but it is done now. And the dogs had to go somewhere. I think it does bring regional issues to other regions. But I don't have any answers on how to counter that. 

I took a pup to the shelter once. I got a call when Arwen was lost, and the pup was definitely not mine, but the people were renting and couldn't have a dog, and begged me to take her or they would just let her loose in the streets of Ashtabula City. So I took her, got her vaccinated at the vet, and then took her to the shelter. 

They were nasty about it to me. She had a collar, and I said she might be someone's dog. They just looked at me. I called two days later to see how she was, and they said they sent her to NY. Now the law is they have to keep a stray for so many days, and they sure didn't. I asked how could I know that MY missing dog was not sent to NY? And they said that they send the dogs under 40 pounds to NY. Ok, then. 

Not sure what the point is though.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> Sit, Stay, Ok, gotcha. The ABC pages did suggest that people were bringing them in by the thousands to adopt out as rescues, but that shelters were also importing them because people want puppies.


Still stupid to do when they could spend a fraction of that cost on transporting puppies from parts of THIS country where they are dying by the thousands every year because nobody wants them. Or using that money to spay and neuter strays in PR. Of course, if you did that you wouldn't end up with a "rare Puerta Rican beach dog" to parade around your suburban neighborhood with. 

But I guess if is some dummy wants to brag about how dire their adopted dog's life was prior to being adopted by them, saying the dog was snatched from "Dead Dog Beach" in PR sounds a whole lot more special than saying their adopted dog was picked up as a stray puppy in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot in Bupkis, Alabama.
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No arguments here about using the money to save dogs here first. I mean, if you could spend 100$ to save a Puerto Rican dog, and 100$ to save a Alabama dog, then an argument could be made for either, but with the cost of transportation and importing, the chances are you could save more dog lives by concentrating the money closer to home.

And once we are not killing dogs simply because there is no room in the shelter, then we can turn our eyes outside of our own land and help where dogs are still suffering. Something about taking care of the mote in your own eye first. 

And instead of spending thousands of dollars to save a dog burnt all over his body or who needs limbs amputated and issues treated, put the poor thing down and save multiple dogs with those thousands who will die simply because there isn't space.

But then, I don't pretend to know the first thing about running shelters or rescues.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

sit said:


> Still stupid to do when they could spend a fraction of that cost on transporting puppies from parts of THIS country where they are dying by the thousands every year because nobody wants them. Or using that money to spay and neuter strays in PR. Of course, if you did that you wouldn't end up with a "rare Puerta Rican beach dog" to parade around your suburban neighborhood with.
> 
> But I guess if is some dummy wants to brag about how dire their adopted dog's life was prior to being adopted by them, saying the dog was snatched from "Dead Dog Beach" in PR sounds a whole lot more special than saying their adopted dog was picked up as a stray puppy in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot in Bupkis, Alabama.
> Sheilah


Sit, Stay (Sheilah) –I absolutely agree that there are enough puppies and dogs in need of homes in the contiguous United States to go around (see my above post to that point).

But, with that said, I don’t understand your seeming contempt for people who have helped and adopted dogs from Puerto Rico (which is, by the way, a U.S. Territory whose citizens are also U.S. citizens). 

I suspect that I would, personally, find it less annoying to encounter people who "brag" about how much they spent to rescue a dog from Puerto Rico than people who "brag" about how much they spent on a dog from "champion bloodlines." 

But, who knows, I tend to not like braggers of any type… so, if I ever met anyone who is like what you describe, I might change my mind.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

To the OP, whose head must be spinning, I'm sorry about the thread drift, and the fact that I am now adding to it.



selzer said:


> And once we are not killing dogs simply because there is no room in the shelter, then we can turn our eyes outside of our own land and help where dogs are still suffering. Something about taking care of the mote in your own eye first.


What you're saying makes sense, but a dog is a dog is a dog, and it's not the dog's fault that he was born in a place where there are no shelters and no funds and no one who cares about them. If someone takes a vacation to Puerto Rico and finds dozens of stray dogs and puppies running around mangy and hungry, and they have the wherewithal to bring these pups stateside to be adopted, I have a hard time finding fault with that. Could their money be better spent on needy dogs back home? Maybe, but we tend to focus on what we see in front of us. If, for whatever reason, a shelter in one place has space and dogs in another place need shelter, I don't see why those dogs shouldn't be helped if the funds exist to transport them and the people exist to adopt them. Our local shelter occasionally brings dogs up from overflowing high-kill central CA shelters when they have the space to accommodate them. I have mixed feelings about it, but in the end, I can't get too angry about wanting to help animals in need no matter where they happen to be.



> And instead of spending thousands of dollars to save a dog burnt all over his body or who needs limbs amputated and issues treated, put the poor thing down and save multiple dogs with those thousands who will die simply because there isn't space.


Totally agree with you on this. My personal pet peeve is when shelters and rescues attempt to "rehabilitate" aggressive, dangerous dogs. I saw a program on Animal Planet where a stray Rottweiler was brought in and he bit the ACO badly. The ACO made all kinds of excuses for the dog and insisted he be "rehabilitated". So they sent him to a Rottie rescue, where he seemed to be doing well. The ACO went to visit him and was attacked and seriously bitten AGAIN, and AGAIN he insisted that the dog be rehabbed, so they sent him to a behaviorist.  No, no, no!! Why in the world would we spend resources on a dog that aggressive, when there are perfectly nice dogs that do NOT bite languishing in shelters? Who do they think they're going to adopt that aggressive dog out to? Only the wrong people are going to want this dog for the wrong reasons.


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## Perdido (Mar 20, 2013)

Getting back to the Quality Breeding of GSD... What are the top 3-5 male studs, other than your own dogs, that you recommend for breeding? With this vast knowledge base some claim on the subject, I am interested in you answers.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I think "contempt" is too strong a word. I do believe that most of the folks who do it are acting off an emotional high ("I have made life better for this dog, and it FEELS fantastic") and/or ignorance (in that they have no idea of the suffering being endured by strays held in their own town/county/state). I spoke with a woman in an obedience class once who had brought back a puppy from the Bahamas and she kept going back to how impossible it was to ignore the plight of the dogs because no matter where you went, there they were. We have suffering in this country, too. It is just easier to ignore. If these people really wanted to bring about change they would put their money into a TNR program or a system of shelters. The amount of money that is being channeled into bringing these dogs into this country, "for a better life", could be used to eradicate the problem in their originating country. An entire cottage industry has sprung up in some places to facilitate the process for tourists to bring their favorite stray back. 

What is the name of the guy in Southern California that rescues strays off the street? He sometimes posts the video he records of the rescue process. I am sure he would love to have tourists begging him to adopt the dogs he brings in. 

Plus, it is patently incorrect to state that the fact these dogs are being brought into this country is proof that there are not enough puppies to go around. The only thing it proves is that some people are willing to do some pretty wild things with their time and money.

And don't get me started on transferring dogs from a shelter in one state to a shelter or rescue in another state. Our humane society regularly brings small breed dogs up from shelters in California. No cost. The dogs are transferred out at no cost and the transports are done by volunteers. They get up here, are adopted out at $300 a pop. A true feel good story for everyone involved. Except for the dogs that had been euthanized the week before because the shelter had no room. The shelter will explain they are just trying to keep up with local demand. People want to adopt small dogs, not big black Lab mixes or Pit Bulls. Of course, the shelter in the next county ALWAYS has small breed dogs available, but the media responds better to the idea of going all the way to California to bring back dogs. Driving 20 minutes on the freeway just doesn't have the same ring. So, all things being equal, they go with the action that brings in media attention.
Sheilah


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh yes to this "An entire cottage industry has sprung up in some places to facilitate the process for tourists to bring their favorite stray back."

Yes, and I personally know of a group that brings "desperate" homeless dogs from bankrupt Greece to Canada. 
Great media response !


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> And don't get me started on transferring dogs from a shelter in one state to a shelter or rescue in another state. Our humane society regularly brings small breed dogs up from shelters in California. No cost. The dogs are transferred out at no cost and the transports are done by volunteers. They get up here, are adopted out at $300 a pop. A true feel good story for everyone involved.


No quite sure what the problem with this is? The rescue I help sometimes brings in dogs from California. The shelters there are horrible and so many wind up dead. Here many of our shelters are no kill. So if a few more can be saved by bring them up here what is wrong with that? My Tasha was rescued from California. I paid a reasonable $125 adoption fee which I'm sure didn't even come close to covering the costs of saving her and I know didn't come close to covering all the vet bills. (her tail had to be amputated and she also had a rock in her stomach that had to be removed) but I now have a wonderful shepherd and she has a loving home. Had she not been available I would have one less dog. I wouldn't have just gone out and adopted a pit bull which is mostly what is in our shelters. Not that I have anything against them (I have a little mix that may have some pitbull in him) its just not what I was looking for.


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## runnershigh108 (Nov 23, 2012)

I dont understand why people are so tied up on the color of the GSD. It seems that they only want "true" if there are "true" colors because there litter can go for more money.  sad


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

*None of our shelters are "no kill".* And I personally find the idea of transporting dogs from other areas of the country, while *euthanizing dogs for time and room issues in the shelter you are importing dogs into*, ethically wrong. 

What is morally right about euthanizing three Lab mixes to make room for ten Chihuahuas? Is it an animal shelter or a pet store? Especially when you consider how far they have to go to get those ten Chihuahuas. It isn't like people are just dropping the little dogs off. The shelter has to go looking for them. And they are euthanizing dogs already in the shelter to make room. 
Sheilah


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> *None of our shelters are "no kill".* And I personally find the idea of transporting dogs from other areas of the country, while *euthanizing dogs for time and room issues in the shelter you are importing dogs into*, ethically wrong.
> 
> What is morally right about euthanizing three Lab mixes to make room for ten Chihuahuas? Is it an animal shelter or a pet store? Especially when you consider how far they have to go to get those ten Chihuahuas. It isn't like people are just dropping the little dogs off. The shelter has to go looking for them. And they are euthanizing dogs already in the shelter to make room.
> Sheilah


Wait I'm confused. I'm talking about a rescue. We are not euthanizing anyone. Why is it wrong to rescue specific breed dogs from another state if we can find homes for them?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

LifeofRiley said:


> I don’t understand your seeming contempt for people who have helped and adopted dogs from Puerto Rico (which is, by the way, a U.S. Territory whose citizens are also U.S. citizens).


I agree.

Some of this argument, to me, carries an echo of the people who complain about spending all that money and effort on "just dogs" when omg don't you know there are _HUMAN BEINGS_ starving and suffering right in your own backyard?!

Yeah, there are, and I'm still going to spend my money and effort on dogs, because it's my money and my effort and this is how I choose to direct it. You can do what you want with _your_ time and money (and a lot of times people who make these complaints aren't actually doing anything to help anyone, which adds to my annoyance), but as long as it's all being directed at making the world a better place in some way, exactly what purpose does it serve to denigrate someone else's efforts?

That's kind of how I feel about the sato rescues. They're doing good for those dogs. Maybe not in the way everyone would prefer, but if that's how you feel, then just don't donate to them. I don't, but I don't criticize their mission either. They're still helping to alleviate suffering in this world.

Also, while I agree that spending thousands of dollars on extreme abuse and aggression cases isn't the most efficient allocation of resources in and of itself, that equation changes if you can use it to grab public interest and draw in a flood of donations and volunteers that you can use to help the other animals in need. Best Friends, for one, has absolutely mastered this particular PR niche, and I can't begrudge them. They _do_ pick and choose extreme cases for publicity -- but then they use that publicity to attract the resources needed to help other animals. It's a viable strategy for the media age, and maybe even a necessary evil to stay afloat.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Merciel said:


> I agree.
> 
> Some of this argument, to me, carries an echo of the people who complain about spending all that money and effort on "just dogs" when omg don't you know there are _HUMAN BEINGS_ starving and suffering right in your own backyard?!
> 
> ...


@ Merciel – great post! I agree with all the points you made. I feel the last (bolded) point is particularly important for people to keep in mind. Anyone who has any deep familiarity with non-profit rescue knows the truth of that statement. But, it represents a tiny fraction of dogs helped by your average rescue/shelter – usually 2-3 dogs per year, perhaps 4-6 in larger organizations. I would add that it isn’t just a fundraising mechanism,* it is also about raising awareness of the rescue/shelter itself to get more adoption traffic which, in turn, helps the shelter/rescue help even more dogs in the future.*

@ sit/stay - Hmmm… that is not the way it works where I am.

I do not know any kill shelters that are pulling dogs from other facilities – in-state or out-of-state - unless they have excess capacity and are therefore not euthanizing dogs due to overcrowding. 

Typically, the groups pulling dogs from high-kill shelters are no-kill shelters, all-breed rescues and breed rescues. The decisions are often based on capacity and adoptability of the dogs in question (or willingness of a foster home to take in any one particular dog). In my experience, I have never heard of a shelter/rescue that makes room for dogs it pulls from other areas by euthanizing dogs currently in their care. 

The goal is to move dogs from over-flowing kill shelters to no-kill shelters or rescues that have *both* capacity and adoption traffic – this could mean pulling dogs from the next town over or pulling dogs in a different state. 

Furthermore, most people who come into any given shelter/rescue to adopt do not come in requesting a dog with a “good story.” They are looking to find a dog that would be a good fit to their home or one that they connect with at some emotional level that has nothing to do with bragging rights.

You seem a bit jaded by your experience. Maybe you should help connect your shelter to no-kill shelters and rescues in your area (or beyond) in order to move their dogs to areas that have better adoption rates. I know that labs and lab mixes (of any color) are adopted out very quickly in my area.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> No arguments here about using the money to save dogs here first. I mean, if you could spend 100$ to save a Puerto Rican dog, and 100$ to save a Alabama dog, then an argument could be made for either, but with the cost of transportation and importing, the chances are you could save more dog lives by concentrating the money closer to home.
> 
> And once we are not killing dogs simply because there is no room in the shelter, then we can turn our eyes outside of our own land and help where dogs are still suffering. Something about taking care of the mote in your own eye first.
> 
> ...


Phew, took me a little to catch up. I couldn't agree with this sentiment more, selzer. My heart truly goes out to the animals that are victims of abuse and neglect....but every time I see a "before" picture of a stray that was burned, neglected, unbelievably malnourished/starved...and the "after" pictures, I can't help but think, "my goodness, the amount of money, time, and attention, that had to have been put into saving that one dog...potentially to be adopted out to another idiot owner, while 1000's of healthy dogs are put down..." I don't know, I feel horrible thinking it...sometimes I think they save them for the pictures and stories....I guess there is some pessimism in me.....


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

@DaniFani... no one would opt keep a dog alive if the best interest of the dog is to be PTS because of pain and suffering.

There are dogs that have every chance to make great recoveries and that go on to great families as a result of the efforts of individuals and rescues. Rescues are not in the business of adopting out dogs they have helped to another "idiot." 

The dogs in great need are typically the ones that grab media attention, they are not representative of the vast majority of dogs that rescues/shelters help everyday.

Yes, rescues and shelters leverage media attention and strategize around that *in certain cases*. But, they do so with the mindset that these efforts will not only help the dog in question but also help the shelter/recue help other dogs that do not pull on the heartstrings of the media. 

No shelter or rescue that I am involved with opts to let a dog suffer extreme pain and suffering to just be a "poster dog" for their cause. Unfortunately, there are more than enough dogs that suffer from neglect that is easily treatable to serve that function.

Really, I find it very disturbing when people focus on non-issues to further their own point-of-view. Yes, we can look to one or two cases where a shelters motives are suspect, but they are in the minority, not the majority - at least, that has been my experience.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Merciel said:


> Also, while I agree that spending thousands of dollars on extreme abuse and aggression cases isn't the most efficient allocation of resources in and of itself, that equation changes if you can use it to grab public interest and draw in a flood of donations and volunteers that you can use to help the other animals in need. Best Friends, for one, has absolutely mastered this particular PR niche, and I can't begrudge them. They _do_ pick and choose extreme cases for publicity -- but then they use that publicity to attract the resources needed to help other animals. It's a viable strategy for the media age, and maybe even a necessary evil to stay afloat.


That's a valid point, but it seems so... dishonest of them to do that. I suppose every once in a while there is a case that just pulls at everyone's heartstrings and they are compelled to do everything they can to save the animal. And it is great PR. But it still rubs me the wrong way with the cases of "rehabilitating" aggressive, dangerous dogs; it seems like it would be a huge liability for the organization as well.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

LifeofRiley said:


> I do not know any kill shelters that are pulling dogs from other facilities – in-state or out-of-state - unless they have excess capacity and are therefore not euthanizing dogs due to overcrowding.


the Mason County Animal Shelter, West Virginia. They have no shortage of dogs being put down and are very much a kill shelter.  They bring up cute "little dogs" that will bring in adopters.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> That's a valid point, but it seems so... dishonest of them to do that. I suppose every once in a while there is a case that just pulls at everyone's heartstrings and they are compelled to do everything they can to save the animal. And it is great PR. But it still rubs me the wrong way with the cases of "rehabilitating" aggressive, dangerous dogs; it seems like it would be a huge liability for the organization as well.


I don't know if "dishonest" is the right word.

The fact is, there's very little glamour or drama in saving the cute, sane, healthy, easily adoptable dogs, even though these make up the bulk of almost every rescue group's actual population. This is what people think should be "normal." They aren't headline grabbers.

If you're doing it right -- screening and vetting the dogs, putting them in good foster homes who can train them and address minor behavioral issues, matching them carefully to adopters -- you lose money on those dogs. Even the cute cuddly puppies who are only in foster care for a week or two, max, are money losers for my rescue. Between vetting, boarding, transport, and the occasional litters that break with parvo or giardia or whatever else, we are _constantly_ losing money. There aren't many economies of scale in dog rescue: the bigger a rescue is, and the more animals it has, the faster it loses money.

Private rescues don't have government or city animal control contracts to defray costs, and competition for grants and corporate sponsorship is intense. To make up the shortfall, you need donations from the public. To do that, you need something for them to rally around. Otherwise, you go broke -- and a lot of private rescues who can't or don't play the media game _do_ go broke, usually just as soon as the founder's bank account runs dry.

Heart-tugging abuse cases are one way that some rescues choose to do it -- and I personally don't have a problem with it, because they _are_ saving those dogs and they are genuinely doing a good deed for those animals. The drama isn't fake or manufactured. The dog really was hurt and really is being rehabilitated and really will find a good home, because adopters come out of the woodwork for dogs like those.

And some of those adopters will take home other dogs. Some will donate money. Some will get involved as volunteers. The other dogs win, too.

With aggression cases it's a slightly different story, and I'm inclined to agree with you there: these dogs don't need to be adopted out. I'm a little reluctant to keep trotting them out as an example, but I think Best Friends has a pretty good solution for these, too. Truly dangerous, unpredictable or aggressive dogs are not adopted out to the public. They live their lives out in an enclosed sanctuary, carefully controlled and attended only by qualified volunteers. They're rehabilitated as much as anyone can manage, and they get a decent quality of life, but they're never put in a position to endanger the public.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> the Mason County Animal Shelter, West Virginia. They have no shortage of dogs being put down and are very much a kill shelter. They bring up cute "little dogs" that will bring in adopters.


If you had included more of my post in your quote, you would have noticed that I prefaced my statement with, "that is not how it works in my area." I do not live in West Virginia. So, that is not my area.

But, now that you brought this up, no wonder shelters in my area, with high adoption traffic, are constantly being bombarded with requests from West Virginia facilities to take in puppies, older puppies, young adult and adult dogs.

I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. But, interesting nonetheless. There are a lot of dogs that have been helped by those shelters reaching out to my area.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

LifeofRiley said:


> If you had included more of my post in your quote, you would have noticed that I prefaced my statement with, "that is not how it works in my area." I do not live in West Virginia. So, that is not my area.
> 
> But, now that you brought this up, no wonder shelters in my area, with high adoption traffic, are constantly being bombarded with requests from West Virginia facilities to take in puppies, older puppies, young adult and adult dogs.
> 
> I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. But, interesting none the less. There are a lot of dogs that have been helped by those shelters reaching out to my area.


honestly, it is a bad thing for the local dogs of WV. They DO kill batches to make room for the dogs that they are bringing up from other facilities. Dogs that would usually be given a stay of execution for a few days or owner turn-ins are euthanized so that they can have room. There is no shortage of dogs needing homes in WV. But they are mostly older pups and or hound dog mixes that people can get free from the local paper. So the shelter brings in dogs that people want - small breeds, lab/mixes, etc


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> honestly, it is a bad thing for the local dogs of WV. They DO kill batches to make room for the dogs that they are bringing up from other facilities. Dogs that would usually be given a stay of execution for a few days or owner turn-ins are euthanized so that they can have room. There is no shortage of dogs needing homes in WV. But they are mostly older pups and or hound dog mixes that people can get free from the local paper. So the shelter brings in dogs that people want - small breeds, lab/mixes, etc


Sorry to hear that. My experience with West Virginia facilities has been one where they are looking to move dogs to more adoptable areas. That, in my mind, is a good thing. These dogs are often the very same dogs you mention that would otherwise be euthanized. 

I have no doubt that there are plenty of facilities in West Virginia that do not make the effort to connect to the broader no-kill shelter/rescue community. And, if those facilities are euthanizing dogs to make room for pups from other areas, that is very sad and completely unnecessary.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Merciel said:


> I don't know if "dishonest" is the right word.
> 
> The fact is, there's very little glamour or drama in saving the cute, sane, healthy, easily adoptable dogs, even though these make up the bulk of almost every rescue group's actual population. This is what people think should be "normal." They aren't headline grabbers.
> 
> ...


Yes, this sums it up. Nice post!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Merciel said:


> I don't know if "dishonest" is the right word.


I don't think it's quite the right word, either, but I was trying to find the right word and couldn't.



> Between vetting, boarding, transport, and the occasional litters that break with parvo or giardia or whatever else, we are _constantly_ losing money.


Oh, I know that. It galls me when people complain about rescues "selling" dogs for $300 or so, when the truth of the matter is that $300 doesn't even cover their costs.



> Heart-tugging abuse cases are one way that some rescues choose to do it -- and I personally don't have a problem with it, because they _are_ saving those dogs and they are genuinely doing a good deed for those animals. The drama isn't fake or manufactured. The dog really was hurt and really is being rehabilitated and really will find a good home, because adopters come out of the woodwork for dogs like those.


I really can't get angry about helping a dog in desperate need, it's just that I feel there's a point where resources could be better spent to save several dogs in need instead of funneling it all into ONE case because it will be good PR for the organization. I guess I see it as sort of misleading because the public will then expect that EVERY dog is treated as such, when the reality is that extreme cases are often euthanized, because they simply cannot afford to funnel massive funds into each and every case, and then the public will get upset about THAT.

But it does bring awareness, money, and adopters when an organization pours resources into extreme cases, and publicizes them. It's their call and I can see why they do it. Really, my complaint is with the "rehab" of aggressive and dangerous dogs, not so much with the rehab of extreme abuse/neglect cases.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> Really, my complaint is with the "rehab" of aggressive and dangerous dogs, not so much with the rehab of extreme abuse/neglect cases.


Yeah, this is a sticky one, and I don't know that there's any one good universal answer.

For better or worse, aggression is flashy, and flashy gets a lot of attention. I often see people saying that they admire Cesar Millan because he takes the cases that other people won't (which, whatever you may think of the man, is factually untrue -- he certainly seems to be willing to take a shot at whatever people will give him, but there are plenty of other trainers who would be willing to handle those cases too). By the same token, there's a widespread sentiment in the public that a "real" rescue doesn't turn down any animal in need, and that the very best rescues are the ones that don't give up hope on any dog.

Whether or not you agree with that sentiment is immaterial. The point is, it exists, and putting all PR considerations aside, a lot of people in rescue devoutly believe it too. Some of them really think any dog can be "fixed," given enough love, time, and training. The more _realistic_ ones (aha, there's my bias creeping through...) think that any dog can be given a safe quality of life, and can have their behavior improved, but would never adopt the worst of these dogs out to the public. (Some do get adopted out to extremely knowledgeable, experienced, and careful homes -- a couple of Michael Vick's dogs were placed that way. And others, sensibly, weren't.)

So... I don't know. I think that one is a very difficult question. Some dogs can be rehabbed. Some can't. Sometimes people think a dog falls into one category but it turns out that the answer was really the other.

I know that I _personally_ won't take an aggression case to foster (did it once by accident, and it was a pretty mild one, and I'm STILL never doing that again), and I choose to work with a rescue that shares that same philosophy, but this is a big ol' gray area and I can't fault people who take a different opinion, provided they do it responsibly.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Merciel said:


> Yeah, this is a sticky one, and I don't know that there's any one good universal answer.
> 
> So... I don't know. I think that one is a very difficult question. Some dogs can be rehabbed. Some can't. Sometimes people think a dog falls into one category but it turns out that the answer was really the other.
> 
> I know that I _personally_ won't take an aggression case to foster (did it once by accident, and it was a pretty mild one, and I'm STILL never doing that again), and I choose to work with a rescue that shares that same philosophy, but this is a big ol' gray area and I can't fault people who take a different opinion, provided they do it responsibly.



Yeah, aggression is a tough issue. I know that the shelters/rescues I work with have put down dogs due to aggression issues. 

BTW, aggression cases are also not the dogs that most rescues/shelters typically lead with for PR purposes. 

I don't know, aggression is one of the tricky issues for me. There have been occasions where I felt the dog in question (that was PTS) could have found the perfect home. But, at what cost? 

I do know that the rescues I work with give the dog in question a proper evaluation. In other words, it wasn't based on how a dog behaves in a shelter/kennel setting.... rather, behavior over the course of several months in a foster home. 

One of the biggest disappointments of my own volunteer work happened very early on (15+ years ago). I turned in a stray I found to an organization I had been fostering for, I told them to let me know if there were any problems and I would personally foster him. I found out later the dog was PTS for aggression.

Now, I know this dog was not aggressive. He had stayed at my home with another dog and, at the time, several cats with no issue whatsoever. He actually was a total sweetheart. 

I could have taken that experience and decided that there was no point in trying to do anything. But, instead, I took the opposite approach by becoming more involved in shelters and rescues. You have to fully embody the change you want in this world.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Merciel said:


> Some of them really think any dog can be "fixed," given enough love, time, and training. The more _realistic_ ones (aha, there's my bias creeping through...) think that any dog can be given a safe quality of life, and can have their behavior improved, but would never adopt the worst of these dogs out to the public.


Well, if you're biased, then I'm biased too, because I think there are cases that can NOT be fixed. Genetic temperament issues, physical injury to the brain, tumors, etc. are not fixable. At best they can be managed, and then it takes constant vigilance on the part of the owner. It's definitely a liability.

But I see what you're saying, and it certainly is a gray area. It's really easy to sit back and say "this one should stay, that one should go..." unless you actually have to DO it.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have been on both sides. I have, fairly recently, fostered an adult male GSD, that for the first 2 weeks actually scared me. He was very dominant, challenged me to a point that for my safety, I borrowed a basket muzzle. I needed to see, safely, what the dog would do if pushed. Using the muzzle actually turned everything around. Dog is AMAZING!! And has found a perfect forever home. BUT, I did give notice to my rescue, in that first 2 weeks, that he may be unadoptable. 

I also consulted and evaluated another fosters dog and did recommend PTS. For medical issues. It was the hardest recommendation I have ever made, and I don't regret it at all. Sweetest loving caring boy, in constant pain and mental turmoil and on hundreds if dollars if medications, under neurologists care. But he was suffering. 

I am a pragmatist. You can't save them all. But it does not mean its am easy decision. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I have been on both sides. I have, fairly recently, fostered an adult male GSD, that for the first 2 weeks actually scared me. He was very dominant, challenged me to a point that for my safety, I borrowed a basket muzzle. I needed to see, safely, what the dog would do if pushed. Using the muzzle actually turned everything around. Dog is AMAZING!! And has found a perfect forever home. BUT, I did give notice to my rescue, in that first 2 weeks, that he may be unadoptable.
> 
> I also consulted and evaluated another fosters dog and did recommend PTS. For medical issues. It was the hardest recommendation I have ever made, and I don't regret it at all. Sweetest loving caring boy, in constant pain and mental turmoil and on hundreds if dollars if medications, under neurologists care. But he was suffering.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Yes, being involved in the world of rescue means that sometimes you have to make decisions that are very hard to make but are the right ones nonetheless. The key is that you give the dog a fair chance for a good evaluation.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Zellie&Major said:


> We are looking to breed our Black and Tan male... He has a beautiful pedigree. However, we were approached by a man who says his female GSD is in heat and he would like our male to sire her pups. He sent me a photograph and called her a white German shepherd, but she looks more like a solid sandy tan to me.
> 
> Now I thought because the white gene was a masking gene if she was purebred and white, that she would be solid white. Is this correct? And if she is a purebred what would the pups from a almost solid black male (tan on his paws and lower legs) and a sandy tan female most likely be? I've requested that he send her papers to me, but haven't heard back yet. Just wanted to have my answer ready when I did.
> 
> I was wanting more of a solid black female for a better chance at a solid black puppy. (Father's mother, and father were solid black. Grandmother was a black and tan saddel). Could we get a pretty markings, pretty colored litter out of this match? TIA


So. How did this color question work out for you?
Feel free to ask any other questions about breeding. How about Size?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When the economy is good, people may rally around a case where the heartstrings are pulled, and it may be a good strategy to show a dog with severe abuse, aggression, physical issues that will take months of veterinary care, pain, etc to recover from. 

When the economy is not so good, and people are finding their purse emaciated on a regular basis, they look a lot more closely at how people are spending the money they are shelling out. And they will not willingly shell out to places where money is spent irresponsibly. 

Watching episodes of Animal Cops where the Rotty bit the shelter worker twice, and other episodes where they are saving dogs in serious pain, malnutrition, etc, turns me against them. 

I see some of that as inhumane -- making a dog suffer longer, through long therapies, operations, rehabilitation so that you can pull at heart strings. I see that as abusive to the dog. I see part of my responsibility as an owner to do what is best for the dog, and not to allow considerable suffering to go on. It is a fine line, and with a pet, I think that one can allow their attachment to the pet to try harder, and wait longer to make some decisions, and I do not fault them, because the critter is one that they know and love. But a stray, or a siezure, put the poor thing down, and go after the owner. But don't save the dogs at all costs. 

"No one would do what is not in the best interests of the dog?" I really don't think this is true. I think they may believe that saving the life is more important than what the dog must go through to get there, and that is a personal opinion. But I think that in tough times, people are less likely to be appealed to by using money irresponsibly to save extreme cases, and more likely to be appealed to by being responsible and trying to use the resources to the last penny to help the most dogs.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't disagree about the aggressive dogs. I'm even iffy about a lot of the severe fear cases. I _have_ a severely, genetically fearful dog and (if I can be immodest for a second) I think I've done just about as good a job as anybody can do with a dog like that, and you know what, I am never ever again in my life going to knowingly purchase or adopt a fearful dog. It's not an experience I would ever want to pass on to an adopter.

But most of the dramatic-looking physical abuse and neglect cases have very good outcomes. Dogs with broken or amputated legs go on to be happy and healthy and thrive. Dogs with severe mange, who look truly pitiful and miserable in their shelter photos, likewise make full recoveries. We've rescued dogs who recovered from gunshot wounds, being dragged behind cars, being starved, having collars embedded in their throats, etc. They looked purely _awful_ when we pulled them, but they all healed up just fine.

What we've found is that actually, during times of economic hardship, donations go way down for the "regular" dogs but hold steady or go up for the hard-luck cases. A lot of people can't afford to donate routinely, but derive some real satisfaction from contributing $5 or $10 to an abused dog who's going to go on and have a happy ending. It's a clear way to make a dramatic difference with a relatively small commitment, and that is something that has a lot of appeal for people who want to help but are limited in what they can afford.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why do threads always come to this? I buy purebred dogs, I adopt rescue dogs, I breed purebred dogs, I foster puppies for all-breed local rescue....for MOST PEOPLE owning dogs and being committed to dogs is not mutually exclusive between responsibly bred purebreds and rescue dogs. This evening I am breeding a female to my male dog and also chatting with my rescue to see if they need a foster for the litter of puppies that just came in from the kill shelter. Almost everyone I know who is into dogs has both dogs that they've purchased and dogs they've adopted (or foster failures).


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## ODINsFREKI (Jul 30, 2013)

Give the guy a hundred bucks and tell him to spay his dog and do the world a favor.


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