# Reputable import breeders



## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

Does anyone here know any active gsd import breeders? I am looking to import because of personal preference and less health/ behavioral issues. I live in the united states, Ohio. I have looked at multiple different breeders and still cant seem to find one. I have already done my research and know what to look for but i though i'd ask some people that have good experience with import breeders. I am looking to pay $1000-$2000 for a pup.

I have looked into us breeders and the only one that caught my attention was Mittlewest

Mittelwest German Shepherds - German Shepherd Puppies for sale - German Shepherd Breeders

Any information on reputable us gsd breeders and European gsd import breeders would be GREATLY appreciated, i am looking forward to owning a GSD and becoming a part of the community


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You are not going to get a better puppy by importing than by buying in the US. Look up Wilmoth dogs. com - near Akron...They are retired police officers and have been breeding a long time....you should get a decent puppy from them.

Lee


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> You are not going to get a better puppy by importing than by buying in the US. Look up Wilmoth dogs. com - near Akron...They are retired police officers and have been breeding a long time....you should get a decent puppy from them.
> 
> Lee


Thank you, I will consider that option! I do like having the ability to visit the kennels and looking at the pups first but I am still open to all options right now.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My point was that by importing from Europe, you are going to get the puppy that has not be chosen by local and known buyers to the breeder - ie, possibly a less desirable puppy with issues...have seen it happen so so many times....if you have good connections, you have a better chance at a pup who is more desirable or stable or better nerved. As you are in the US, and looking for a companion pup, I would think you are better off with a US breeder who is reputable.

Lee


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I politely disagree with some of the previous posters generalizations

The WGSL pup I imported from Germany is head and shoulders better than the previous 2 ASL shepherds I had. They are all great dogs...but I had my fill of health issues and decided to look elsewhere....closer to the source I guess. I will say my current GSD import is much more smart and capable than the previous two....however, in all fairness, some of this might be due to the fact I have learned more thanks to the previous two dogs. 

I think the upside of many import dogs...especially from Germany is the breeding requirements....ASLs just have to meet conformation requirements ....no performance requirements whatsoever. WGSL imports have a much more rigorous testing process....especially pink papered GSDs. Sound nerves are required in order for a GSD to be pink papered along with many other requirements.

One can most definitely get a "better" GSD by importing....just as one might be able to get a "better" GSD without importing. So, suggesting one cannot get a top quality GSD via importing is a sweeping generalization which has no merit.

SuperG


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Oh - it has lots of merit!!!!!! From right here on this board, there have been quite a few people sent dogs with temperament and or health problems...Look through some of the older posts - people getting disasters from Europe for their first dog....it is NOT uncommon...

It also has merit from personal observation! I have seen people buy from big name kennels in Europe - Germany, Belgium and Czech Republic....sent pups with weak ears, weak nerve, runts of litter....have seen it happen over and over! OTOH - people with a track record, people with contacts, or people who just get lucky have gotten nice pups! I think it is much higher risk for someone with no experience in IPO here, no contacts in Europe and no contacts here for networking to import a pup. At least by going to a breeder like the Wilmoths (whose breeding stock is imported and pink papered!) they have the added advantage of having a breeder close by who does breed nice WGSL dogs.
and frankly - comparing an imported WGSL pup to 2 problematic ASLs .......apples to oranges

There are good pink papered dogs in the US....and many who are titled and koered born here.

Lee


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> As you are in the US, and looking for a companion pup, I would think you are better off with a US breeder who is reputable.


I agree 100%.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

Or go to Europe and visit breeders there, but know what you are looking for and want and what the cost should be. 

I'm still a little peeved at one Czech breeder I emailed. As soon as I told him we go to Europe often and I'd come pick up a puppy, he didn't want to talk to me anymore! I'm guessing he realized I wouldn't pay an inflated price and I know how much they should cost.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Everything you cite regarding issues on imported GSDs happens all the same with ASL dogs.....and perhaps even more.

Bottom line to me is simply, the SV is more strict regarding breeding standards and both sire and dam are scrutinized considerably more than the overall practices in the USA...excepting the USA/SV perhaps

Oh, who ends up with the "pups with weak ears, weak nerve, runts of litter." from US breedings of pink papered imports? Or does that never happen ???

So, if we are comparing imported WGSLs pink papered and then bred in the US compared to importing a pink papered pup from Germany...we are essentially talking about the same thing...sans the breeder proximity. The same " pups with weak ears, weak nerve, runts of litter." exist in either situation......

Also....American breeders ( not all ) of German imports have already bastardized the breed pedigree and lure buyers by stating " German import bloodlines...etc" when only one dog in the breeding has any "German" bloodlines....

If I had to chose between an imported pink papered WGSL versus an American BYB GSD....I'd take the import.....plain and simple.


SuperG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

apples and oranges --- you can buy a West German Show line bred dog right here from USA or Canada . Same genetics . 
I believe this is what the OP was asking about.

Super G you then disagreed . Here was your answer "The WGSL pup I imported from Germany is head and shoulders better than the previous 2 ASL shepherds"

You are comparing two completely different sets of genetics. W German show lines and the two AMERICAN show lines . So different there would not be one animal in common ancestry probably going back to Lance of Fran Jo's sire . 

When you buy from abroad it is pretty difficult to return if necessary or to get guarantees for anything . NO guarantees .


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I forgot....

Your original assertion " You are not going to get a better puppy by importing than by buying in the US." is incorrect. Your sweeping generalization needs to be greatly modified in order to have any veracity as you make it sound it is impossible to get a better puppy via importing which is completely in error. I noticed you have tempered this original premise greatly which is appreciated.


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

carmspack said:


> apples and oranges --- you can buy a West German Show line bred dog right here from USA or Canada . Same genetics .
> I believe this is what the OP was asking about.
> 
> Super G you then disagreed . Here was your answer "The WGSL pup I imported from Germany is head and shoulders better than the previous 2 ASL shepherds"
> ...


Yes, I agree with the comparison of an ASL to a WGSL....my error....thank you for pointing that out.

If the OP strictly wants an "import" GSD, this can be accomplished in the USA to the greater degree....assuming the breeder has all the contacts, savvy..etc.

SuperG


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Comparing an Am bred ASL to a German bred WGSL is apples and oranges, completely different lines. I have a WGSL bred in Germany, whelped here. He's not different genetically than 99.9% of the WGSL dogs that were being bred here or in Europe at that time.

I don't think the OP's budget reflects what it might take to actually find a dog with comparable quality to what could be purchased here and have the dog imported. Also by posting the thread here I am assuming the OP doesn't already have very good connections in Europe and that would make me leery. Even knowing what lines I like, I would not import without very good connections.

OP if you like Mittelwest dogs, why not get one? Why import? They import some dogs and many times they send their dogs to Germany for showing and titling. Why pay more to get the same genetics shipped over from Europe? (and then have to deal with getting the right paperwork if you ever intend to show, title, and breed).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RyanNeus said:


> Does anyone here know any active gsd import breeders? I am looking to import because of personal preference and less health/ behavioral issues. I live in the united states, Ohio. I have looked at multiple different breeders and still cant seem to find one. *I have already done my research and know what to look for *but i though i'd ask some people that have good experience with import breeders. I am looking to pay $1000-$2000 for a pup.
> 
> I have looked into us breeders and the only one that caught my attention was Mittlewest
> 
> ...


If you have done your research, then make some contacts with kennels and get to know them. I agree, you can get a great dog in the US, though paying the price you quoted for a well bred SL is going to be double that. 
Are there any clubs locally(2-3 hour drive) that you can check out/make contacts? There are a couple breeders I'd steer clear of in OH, this fb page may be of help to you: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OhioWorkingDogs/?fref=ts


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Comparing an Am bred ASL to a German bred WGSL is apples and oranges, completely different lines..



I mostly agree....but wonder if you would continue your "apples to oranges" analogy regarding overall health, longevity and physical prowess between the two variations?

My mindset when I originally replied was focused on mostly health and longevity. I would like to believe that you would continue with the "apples to oranges" mentality regarding these two factors. The main reason I decided to get a WGSL imported was to prevent the heartache of saying goodbye to a 6 and 8 year old GSD again....I figured I should be able to maybe get lucky and have a buddy for maybe 12 years......yes, it's all about me.

I truly don't so much care about where my dog came from and all the pedigree history and performance qualities ( even though I know much of my quest is based on these factors )....I simply wanted a GSD that would weather the storm and be by my side and allow me to return in kind. I'm not a trophy seeking owner even though my dog is most likely plenty capable of acquiring these honors but I went abroad because I believed I stood a better chance of having a shepherd which would have a full healthy life. All the "extras" which came with her were secondary but yet a bonus. I will see if my opinion regarding getting an imported dog holds water and I hope in 10-12 years I would have the hardship of posting my final goodbye to her....to me, that would be a good run.

Anyway, I am curious if you or any others might opine regarding if there is a better sub group of GSDs which offer a better chance at quality heath coupled with longevity. 

SuperG


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Anyway, I am curious if you or any others might opine regarding if there is a better sub group of GSDs which offer a better chance at quality heath coupled with longevity.


Why wouldn't you just look for established, ethical breeders with proven health and longevity in their lines?

The logical conclusion here is not "imported dog > U.S.-bred dog." It is "purposefully bred dog out of a solid, knowledgeable program > BYB dog."

There are a number of ways you might look for a breeder who emphasizes health and longevity. Look at the lifespans and career lengths of the other dogs in the pedigree, and of siblings or half-siblings that might have been born in previous years. Look for health tests and performance titles or working certifications (which indicate a certain degree of physical soundness, particularly in more athletically demanding pursuits and when coupled with long careers). Talk to owners of other dogs produced by that program -- ideally close relatives of the puppy you're considering -- and find out how long their dogs held up.

All of these things are much easier to verify if you are dealing with a breeder in your country who has placed other dogs in your area. If you're importing, it's often a much bigger gamble, because it is generally going to be a lot harder to go out and see some of those relatives and talk to their owners.

On top of that, as several people have already said, if you don't have any connection to the breeder and you're a pet/companion home who won't be seriously campaigning one of their dogs or keeping its genes in the breeding pool, they really have no incentive to give you one of the stronger puppies out of that litter.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Super G you said "The main reason I decided to get a WGSL imported was to prevent the heartache of saying goodbye to a 6 and 8 year old GSD again" 

I really and truly hope that you are not disappointed. WGSLs generally don't enjoy longevity . 6 - 8 seems to be normal. 

The German TV video that I posted , raises this very issue.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think it matters what "line" they come from. You really need to look at the pedigree and see what kind of health and longevity is in that particular dog's pedigree. I know plenty of ASL dogs that are pushing 12+ years and I even know one that's 14. I understand that in your experience the two dogs you had didn't last very long, but your sample is way to small to claim that an imported dog is going to outlast the two you had before.

The truth is, the Germans have had a long history of not sending their best stock over to the United States until they're titled and are worth 5 figures. As puppies, there's no reason for a breeder to send a dog over to the United States, especially to a pet home, because they aren't going to make a better name for that breeder. The dog won't be shown or worked, so why send the best? You'll keep your best so that you can use that animal again in your breeding program once its titled and shown. So although your dog might be healthy, its probably not the "best" dog you can get for the money.

On top of all that, in the United States, you generally have guarantees and contracts, which at least protect you from some of the health problems you might have in the first couple years. With an imported dog, you have no recourse if the dog does develop early issues.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Merciel,

I have been down that road before....two breeders who did highlight health and longevity....I guess I ended up with the wrong pick of the litter twice hence my search for a subgroup of GSDs which statistically offered better results.

I appreciate your " The logical conclusion here is not "imported dog > U.S.-bred dog." It is "purposefully bred dog out of a solid, knowledgeable program > BYB dog." however, I was searching a subgroup first and foremost and then proceed from there inside the subgroup. 

I am under the impression that GSDs held to a certain higher standard, such as the SV would offer a better chance of overall health...I very well could be wrong but this is the decision I made. I hope it is not in error.

As far as the " they really have no incentive to give you one of the stronger puppies out of that litter."....I might disagree...reputation is important...and I did not play the role of a "pet/companion" buyer, yet I still stressed longevity....I believe my career gave me the ability to be a formidable purchaser.....even with dogs. Breeders ( many ) will say what they perceive the buyer wants to hear....I approach this unskilled "salesmanship" prepared.

I did my due diligence and acted accordingly....time will tell if I went forward appropriately...or perhaps had luck on my side.


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

martemchik

I appreciate your response...in many senses there are no guarantees.

I proceeded in a fashion which I best thought would serve my needs. Therefore, I will stick by it until I learn a different lesson.

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

carmspack said:


> The German TV video that I posted , raises this very issue.



Probably my ineptness...did not find the video post. I would be interested in viewing it.

SuperG


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## K9POPPY (Mar 6, 2014)

*Import?*

I will not attempt to jump into this hornet nest as presented other than to suggest the original OP google the "one" that caught his interest- an informed buyer is wiser-:help:


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Carmen, not to go off topic, but is it really your experience that 6-8 yrs. is typical for WGSL? Our last WGSL lived until he was 12 and, if he had not injured his spine I think he would have lived another 2 years. I'd always assumed 10-12 years was pretty average and have heard of some GSD living to 14 and even 15. Is it your experience that WL dogs tend to live longer than SL?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

SuperG said:


> I mostly agree....but wonder if you would continue your "apples to oranges" analogy regarding overall health, longevity and physical prowess between the two variations?


Between what, ASLs and WGSL? But what does that have to do with importing? My point is that if the OP simply wants WGSL type, no need to import. The pedigrees are often similar if not the same, unless the breeder is very intentionally trying to bring in some lesser used dogs and lines, but if that was the case in Europe, why would the let go of their best puppies to be imported here? They wouldn't.

I can't comment on comparing health of ASL and WGSL in general, I've never owned an ASL. My WGSL is V rated, KKL1, Schutzhund titled, OFA good hips and normal elbows, DM clear, thyroid panel normal, OFA eyes normal and I didn't have to pay a cent to have him imported even though both of his parents were bred, shown, and titled in Germany.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My WGSL male lived a little over 14.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

My German show line female lived to 13.5. My German working line male lived to almost 12. My German working line female is now 9 and in very good health with no HD. We got all dogs in Germany.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I greatly appreciate the responses.....regardless if they agree with my opinion or not.

K9Poppy.....wise words .....being informed is paramount.

John C.....appreciate the input and great question.

Liesje....My intuition suggests....the closer to the source of a WGSL...the better.

Also " why would the let go of their best puppies to be imported here? They wouldn't."......exactly...I agree. So, my "odds" are better getting an import from the source rather than a breeding of two less than "best puppies" bred in the USA.

I apologize for hijacking the OP's thread but it isn't entirely off topic.


SuperG


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

What is this magical source? Genetics are what counts. Not where the dog is born. Are you saying that your dog would not have been as good if the parents were imported and the breeding happened here.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

Thank you all for your comments and information, maybe I should clarify what I am looking for in a german shepherd first, I'll start off by saying i am looking for a GSD pup that will be well capable of working but can be just as much of a best buddy as a hard worker. I want train it for personal/ home protection and possibly to help out with my fathers security work (will be training scent work and schutzhund). I will be riding my bike with it or running with it daily for long distances as long as the weather permits and I have parks close by. Also a fenced in backyard. So there will be plenty of space and exercise.

I just don't want to lose a lose a buddy early due to health problems or have to pay for really expensive hip surgeries but I will if it is needed. I would just rather completely avoid health problems if at all possible and if anyone could link me to a decent breeder either here in America or in Europe that can meet my needs I will be more than grateful 

I know a lot of what I said has to do with training and how the dog is brought up but I am looking for traits that would be ideal for me. Not really looking for a show line or a dog to breed... Just a best bud and attentive worker 
I don't want to sound too ignorant as I have been researching GSDs for a while and have made the decision that it is the right dog for us, I just want to be sure that I am not getting screwed over so that's my reasoning behind coming to a forum to ask more experienced owners. I really do appreciate any input given!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

DobbyDad said:


> What is this magical source? Genetics are what counts. Not where the dog is born. Are you saying that your dog would not have been as good if the parents were imported and the breeding happened here.


No.....I am suggesting that the quality genetics within a pedigree are the ones I am concerned about.....not the permutations which might be imported as brood stock.


SuperG


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

To the OP, have you considered working lines or are you looking for a dog that resembles the ones in your original post.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

SuperG said:


> Liesje....My intuition suggests....the closer to the source of a WGSL...the better.
> 
> Also " why would the let go of their best puppies to be imported here? They wouldn't."......exactly...I agree. So, my "odds" are better getting an import from the source rather than a breeding of two less than "best puppies" bred in the USA.


That's not really what I meant. My WGSL is *not* an import yet was bred IN Germany and both parents were born, trained, and titled in Germany. You don't need to import a dog to get the exact same genetics they are breeding in Europe. My dog has over 20 titles including the same breed survey required by the SV and I will gladly put my "less than best" dog up against any imported WGSL any day in any venue of conformation or sport 

My assumption would be that if someone had good connections in Europe and wasn't going to get taken for a ride or just be sold the puppies that aren't good enough for a breeder in Europe to hold back or keep, that person would not need to make such a post on this forum asking for help. That is not a slam on the OP, plenty of us have fantastic dogs that we have purchased without having to import, but I would caution the OP against assuming a dog is better quality or a breeder has good intentions and is telling top quality dogs to a random person in the US who wants to import a dog but has no real connections in Europe. If I were to import a WGSL puppy, even as someone who already has WGSL dog and has been doing the SV show and breed survey thing for several years now, I would not import a puppy on my own. I know who I'd ask for help but I would assume that breeders in Europe who don't know me or my dogs would never sell me their top quality puppies without a connection that can vouch for me.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I have an imported dog. 

I am getting a puppy from here in the US this weekend.

When we were deciding where to get my next pup from, we equally considered litters overseas with litters here. It's all in what you want, who you know, and who you trust. If you don't have contacts overseas (we do), then maybe your best bet would be here in the states where you may visit.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

OP: you posted that Mittlewest had what you were interested in - that is why West German Show Lines (WGSL) were being discussed and recommended! The European lines are broken down into two types - show lines and working lines - it does not mean you are necessarily buying show prospects, but rather a particular style of conformation and size and the color red/tan with black saddle when anyone talks about show lines...

Super G - the breeder I recommended has mostly WGS: breeding stock that was titled and koered in Germany - and has the advantage of probably being within 2-3 hours of the OP...they train, trial and show and follow the SV breeding criteria. Thus, I felt this would be a good resource for the type of puppy the OP appeared to be seeking.

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

longevity - van Oirschot's lectures have long warned against the bottle neck and lack of diversity , yielding conformity of type , but sacrificing vigour , health , and longevity . 

You can check out "iceberg breeders" on this forum .
The "video" http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/440833-video-german-tv-subject-breed.html


the OP has to decide what kind of dog they want .

They do not need to import a dog -- there are good breeders in USA , and Canada.

Actually I am a little confused as to what the OP is looking for.
Taken from page one of this thread .

"Does anyone here know any active gsd import breeders? "

"I am looking to import because of personal preference and less health/ behavioral issues"

So are they looking for breeders in the USA breeding from imported stock , or are they looking to import themselves or deal with a broker who does import and resell?


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> longevity - van Oirschot's lectures have long warned against the bottle neck and lack of diversity , yielding conformity of type , but sacrificing vigour , health , and longevity .
> 
> You can check out "iceberg breeders" on this forum .
> The "video" http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/440833-video-german-tv-subject-breed.html
> ...


scroll through and read my previous comment please and you will have a better idea of what i am looking for. EDIT: I'll just quote it...



RyanNeus said:


> Thank you all for your comments and information, maybe I should clarify what I am looking for in a german shepherd first, I'll start off by saying i am looking for a GSD pup that will be well capable of working but can be just as much of a best buddy as a hard worker. I want train it for personal/ home protection and possibly to help out with my fathers security work (will be training scent work and schutzhund). I will be riding my bike with it or running with it daily for long distances as long as the weather permits and I have parks close by. Also a fenced in backyard. So there will be plenty of space and exercise.
> 
> I just don't want to lose a lose a buddy early due to health problems or have to pay for really expensive hip surgeries but I will if it is needed. I would just rather completely avoid health problems if at all possible and if anyone could link me to a decent breeder either here in America or in Europe that can meet my needs I will be more than grateful
> 
> ...


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sounds like your looking for a WL or you should be if you want to stack the odds in your favor of getting what you want.
Lots of nice WLs in the USA but just like SLs you have to be careful you dont end up with a breeder that just bought titled imports and throws them together to get pretty dogs and make money. Or even worse one that doesnt know what they are doing and uses less then stellar breeding stock.

The WL Breeders that I trust:

Sportwaffen
Bill Kulla
Staatmacht

There are many more.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sounds like your looking for a WL or you should be if you want to stack the odds in your favor of getting what you want.
> Lots of nice WLs in the USA but just like SLs you have to be careful you dont end up with a breeder that just bought titled imports and throws them together to get pretty dogs and make money. Or even worse one that doesnt know what they are doing and uses less then stellar breeding stock.
> 
> The WL Breeders that I trust:
> ...


Sent an email to staatmacht. Bill kulla seems trustable, why does sportwaffen have open scam reports?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Read the report its one crazy women that wanted a free dog..lol. I have one of his pups right here as do some other members. He knows his dogs and works them too.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Read the report its one crazy women that wanted a free dog..lol. I have one of his pups right here as do some other members. He knows his dogs and works them too.


Ok... i'm probably gonna go with Bill Kulla or Staatmacht


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## K9POPPY (Mar 6, 2014)

You have gotten some good suggestions here, the first 1 mentioned has had a lot of complaints, is questionable for what you are searching for- good luck on your pick!


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

Your price range should be generally right on (1000-2000) for a working line. Could go to 2500 depending on breeder, location and whether you ship or drive to pick up your pup. All three of the breeders that Blitzkrieg mentioned are good choices. Depending on drives, goals, lines and personal preference will determine the right breeder for you. As you said earlier that a lot of what you want is gonna be determined by the way you raise and train your dog. Be sure to read everything you can and consult Clubs in your area and get help/training sessions. Raising a working dog is I think anyway, different from raising a pet/companion. Good luck and let us know the outcome. P.S. HD in dogs has as much or more to do with the way you raise a pup from 8 weeks-12 months as it does genetics. Over feeding and over exercising can really hurt a pups development. Just my opinion .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

K9POPPY said:


> You have gotten some good suggestions here, the first 1 mentioned has had a lot of complaints, is questionable for what you are searching for- good luck on your pick!


You talking about sportwaffen?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

OP, if you're really interested in Schutzhund, go visit the clubs near you. Watch them work their dogs, see what you like, what you don't like. You don't need to know a lot about what your seeing to be able to differentiate between the good dogs and the bad dogs. I'm sure others will also be very helpful in telling you what you're seeing and answering any questions you might have.

If you go to the club, you can ask people where they got their dogs from. Some of them might even be breeding and you can get exactly what you want. Not just from a forum recommendation from someone that probably has never seen the dogs they're talking about just recommending a breeder based on previous posts/recommendations from others. I'm not saying the breeders that you were recommended aren't good (I've seen their dogs work) but you might want to do some of the research yourself to really get a hang of what kind of dog you want for Schutzhund or other work.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, get out and watch dogs train, make contacts. Deciding upon a breeder off a forum post recommendation is not really doing your research, IMO. 
I could give you many names of breeders, but who am I to recommend? Get out and see some dogs/different lines.
The Working Dog Championship is in a couple weeks, in Grove City.... I'd be heading there if I were in your area! http://www.2014wdc.com/


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## K9POPPY (Mar 6, 2014)

Blitzkreig, no, I was referring to the OP initially mentioned the 1 that starts with a "W", with which I have NO experience, but just googled them for info-


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

more apples and oranges.

OP , the first page or two of replies, including Wolfstraum's, centred around " I am looking to import" .
What you want is not out of the ordinary, pretty much standard . That's good though . What you gave importance too is good as well.
You didn't give colour priority or mention size. 
You want a dog with good nerve and temperament with physical soundness . Good . 
This requirement " I want train it for personal/ home protection and possibly to help out with my fathers security work (will be training scent work and schutzhund)" does narrow the field and I would suggest you go and visit and experience some working line kennels .
Wolfstraum, Wildhaus (Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan) , Lisa at zu Treuen Handen Zu Treuen Händen Working German Shepherd Dogs . If you need to import , how about a dog from Canada ? Carmspack . 

Even in the working lines there are "groups" . Trendy sport dogs can have a deliberate selection process for very high prey drive . There are many many threads on this . 

Perhaps someone can point out these threads?

What you need , at least think about it is B A L A N C E 

not extreme of anything , and not prey monkeys .

The kennels I recommended have members on this forum so you can get to know them , philosophies and ask questions .

hope that helps


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Bill Kulla and Jennifer Acevedo are great. I have purchased and trained a puppy from them and talked with Jen at a show on Saturday.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

buying a dog that is domestic bred, meaning on this continent , local to you is that you have wide access to personal contact with other previous buyers of whatever breeder you choose. 
You can go and compare two or three litters just by jumping in your car and taking a drive. You can see which litter has a better click with you . You can see the entire litter , depending on your timing.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

carmspack said:


> buying a dog that is domestic bred, meaning on this continent , local to you is that you have wide access to personal contact with other previous buyers of whatever breeder you choose.
> You can go and compare two or three litters just by jumping in your car and taking a drive. You can see which litter has a better click with you . You can see the entire litter , depending on your timing.


Although I think we've talked the OP out of only considering import dogs, this to me is the key advantage of going to a local breeder. It's one thing to look at a breeder's website filled with beautiful pictures and glowing descriptions of their breeding stock, its another to actually go and visit the breeder, see the dogs in person, be able to contact other people who have bought prior litters and maybe even select your puppy from a particular litter. And to have a continuing relationship with the breeder after the purchase.

When we got our last GSD (now more than 1 years ago) my wife and I were convinced we were going to go with a particular breeder, who had a fantastic website. Then we visited and met the dogs and saw the kennel. We ended up going with a breeder who was not very good at web design and who did not have a particularly impressive website. But we absolutely fell in love with his dogs.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I might investigate a breeding of Nino Von Tronje with a top quality bitch.

I am under the impression Nino Von Tronje is now in the USA....so one could go see the puppies and breeder's operation.

SuperG


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think going to the Working Dog Championship is a very good idea....you can see what types of dogs people are talking about and decide if a high power high prey drive sport dog is what you are looking for (as that is what you are being guided towards!) 

Understanding the differences between show and working lines and how each will suit your needs is your first step - even before contacting a breeder IMO

Lee


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

John C. said:


> Although I think we've talked the OP out of only considering import dogs, this to me is the key advantage of going to a local breeder. It's one thing to look at a breeder's website filled with beautiful pictures and glowing descriptions of their breeding stock, its another to actually go and visit the breeder, see the dogs in person, be able to contact other people who have bought prior litters and maybe even select your puppy from a particular litter. And to have a continuing relationship with the breeder after the purchase.
> ...


These are all PRO arguments.
What about CON - limiting yourself to the geographic region that might not offer a quality selection the buyer is looking for?
For example - there is not much to look at in Connecticut. And I am not just talking about the high level for competition and sports. Even for a family companion the puppy with solid nerves, temperament and health just as important.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think limiting by geographic location is definitely a "con", but so is insisting on importing specifically from another geographic location. Pick the dog that fits, whether it's down the road or a 5 hour flight.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

John C. said:


> Although I think we've talked the OP out of only considering import dogs, this to me is the key advantage of going to a local breeder. It's one thing to look at a breeder's website filled with beautiful pictures and glowing descriptions of their breeding stock, its another to actually go and visit the breeder, see the dogs in person, be able to contact other people who have bought prior litters and maybe even select your puppy from a particular litter. And to have a continuing relationship with the breeder after the purchase.
> 
> When we got our last GSD (now more than 1 years ago) my wife and I were convinced we were going to go with a particular breeder, who had a fantastic website. Then we visited and met the dogs and saw the kennel. We ended up going with a breeder who was not very good at web design and who did not have a particularly impressive website. But we absolutely fell in love with his dogs.


We got two dogs from a small breeder near where we used to live, and we met them before websites became so popular. Their website isn't that great, and they only have a few dogs, but they take great care of their dogs and the people are honest and direct. You can't tell all that from a website. Just me, but I'm not all that interested in the big name breeders or those with the most impressive websites.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

alexg said:


> These are all PRO arguments.
> What about CON - limiting yourself to the geographic region that might not offer a quality selection the buyer is looking for?
> For example - there is not much to look at in Connecticut. And I am not just talking about the high level for competition and sports. Even for a family companion the puppy with solid nerves, temperament and health just as important.


Not sure I agree with you. I live in Mass. and depending on what you're looking for I think there are a bunch of breeders that are within driving distance. I've had a couple of people give me very good suggestions for breeders in Mass., New Hampshire and Vermont, both working line and show line.

In fact our last GSD came from a breeder in Ct. Very small, and we chose them primarily because they had a bitch we particularly liked (who has long since passed away), so I'm not sure I'd still recommend them. 

Maybe your standards are much higher than mine, but I think if you do the research, get recommendations from people on this forum and are willing to do some traveling, for most people it isn't that hard to find a good breeder that's within a 4-5 hour drive. If you live in a very rural part of the country finding someone local may be its a problem. But you live in Connecticut and depending on where a 4-5 hr drive can put you in New York, Mass., Vermont, NH, Maine, RI. Surely, you don't believe there isn't a single breeder in any of these states that's producing quality puppies.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, get out and watch dogs train, make contacts. Deciding upon a breeder off a forum post recommendation is not really doing your research, IMO.
> I could give you many names of breeders, but who am I to recommend? Get out and see some dogs/different lines.
> The Working Dog Championship is in a couple weeks, in Grove City.... I'd be heading there if I were in your area! Home


I'll have to check that out for sure, kinda far from the NW area but i'll try to get out there!


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> more apples and oranges.
> 
> OP , the first page or two of replies, including Wolfstraum's, centred around " I am looking to import" .
> What you want is not out of the ordinary, pretty much standard . That's good though . What you gave importance too is good as well.
> ...


Exactly the kind of response i was looking for!! Thank you!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

K9POPPY said:


> Blitzkreig, no, I was referring to the OP initially mentioned the 1 that starts with a "W", with which I have NO experience, but just googled them for info-


Ahh I see, just curious.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

How about blackthorn (Blackthorn Working German Shepherds -- Available Puppies) any one hear about or have any experience with them? 

Also I sent a email to staatsmacht and Stefan said they have a few litters coming up this year and I could pre order now.

Bill Kulla has a litter due in about 3 or 4 weeks.

I emailed wildhaus (pending response)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Christine has a litter due from Django haus Jurjim....he sired my I litter and I got very very nice pups...The Ufo dogs tend to have good temperaments and can live with you.....

Lee


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Christine has a litter due from Django haus Jurjim....he sired my I litter and I got very very nice pups...The Ufo dogs tend to have good temperaments and can live with you.....
> 
> Lee


I'm assuming this is her site (Von Haus King Puppies)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

no - that is Liz King who owns Django now.....Christine is Blackthorne, who you mentioned in your post....

Lee


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> no - that is Liz King who owns Django now.....Christine is Blackthorne, who you mentioned in your post....
> 
> Lee


Oh ok, sorry my mistake.. I have sent her an email, will keep everyone updated on any decisions I make, thanks again for the reply!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So are you going to the WDC? It would be a great learning experience, may help you in your decision process.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> So are you going to the WDC? It would be a great learning experience, may help you in your decision process.


Respectfully I think I'm pretty capable of making a decision without going, but I will defiantly go to check it out no matter if I make a decision beforehand or not. 

I am a very quick learner naturally and I thought I knew what I was doing before this thread but thanks to all of the comments and information i have found, I have learned what exactly I am looking for. Now all I have to do is find the correct breeder with good morals


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Caveat emptor.....due diligence as you know is your best ally.....


SuperG


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RyanNeus said:


> Respectfully I think I'm pretty capable of making a decision without going, but I will defiantly go to check it out no matter if I make a decision beforehand or not.
> 
> I am a very quick learner naturally and I thought I knew what I was doing before this thread but thanks to all of the comments and information i have found, I have learned what exactly I am looking for. Now all I have to do is find the correct breeder with good morals


Lol...the only way to do that is to go visit a club, meet people in real life and figure out what you want. Sorry, but no amount of internet surfing and reading posts on this forum will get you the information you need to make a good decision. 

The breeders you were recommended, all but two are part of this forum. It's not very surprising that they were recommended, as they're always recommended when someone comes on here asking for recommendations. One of the posters even recommended themselves...not sure how credible of a recommendation that could be. Breeders are also salespeople, they want to sell their pups, the answers you're going to get directly from them are probably going to be very subjective and make them look very good.

If you've never seen a dog work in sport or in anything else, or trained a dog to do some of the things you have posted about, and you really do want a dog capable of those things, get out there right now and start seeing it happen with your own two eyes. Don't rely on other people's recommendations to do that for you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh for pete's sake . "The breeders you were recommended, all but two are part of this forum. It's not very surprising that they were recommended, as they're always recommended when someone comes on here asking for recommendations. One of the posters even recommended themselves...not sure how credible of a recommendation that could be..."

yeah I've recommended a list . Most of these people I have had knowledge of in some form over 20 years . I've followed their breeding career paths. They are consistently producing dogs that are on target for their goals. I personally would not hesitate in owning any one of their dogs . 
Oh and by the way , lighten up, eh , I don't have pups, won't have pups available --- .


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You don't know what you don't know....seeing dogs in training is an eye opener, and you'll learn what type really interests you and what you really may not want to own. 
There is nothing like seeing for yourself the differences. Though, if you don't know what to look for, they may all look alike. I was at a seminar this past weekend with all types of GSD's, and other breeds. It was great to see the different styles of training and temperaments and how the dogs acted.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Lol...the only way to do that is to go visit a club, meet people in real life and figure out what you want. Sorry, but no amount of internet surfing and reading posts on this forum will get you the information you need to make a good decision.
> 
> The breeders you were recommended, all but two are part of this forum. It's not very surprising that they were recommended, as they're always recommended when someone comes on here asking for recommendations. One of the posters even recommended themselves...not sure how credible of a recommendation that could be. Breeders are also salespeople, they want to sell their pups, the answers you're going to get directly from them are probably going to be very subjective and make them look very good.
> 
> If you've never seen a dog work in sport or in anything else, or trained a dog to do some of the things you have posted about, and you really do want a dog capable of those things, get out there right now and start seeing it happen with your own two eyes. Don't rely on other people's recommendations to do that for you.


I am not relying on only internet search, I have friends and family and even neighbors with experience too and I have recently talked to them, I now know what to look for in a breeder, also a good breeder will spend time matching the potential owner with a pup. Just because I have never owned a GSD doesn't mean I have no prior experience with working dogs. And I noticed the person that recommended them self and I will stay away from that, but not all recommendations are from the breeders, I am searching through numerous pages on this forum and others of multiple owners experiences and reading through thoroughly on the environments they were placed in. And I did not say I wouldn't go, I will be sure to go even if I make a decision beforehand, lighten up a bit, I am more than capable of understanding where you are coming from, I just don't feel it is an extremely necessary thing to do because we live in the information age, I can watch old feeds of past events and research the different breeds yea sure an "in person experience" is best but it still wont guarantee anything. And that's what it comes down to is there are no guarantees in life.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

carmspack said:


> oh for pete's sake . "The breeders you were recommended, all but two are part of this forum. It's not very surprising that they were recommended, as they're always recommended when someone comes on here asking for recommendations. One of the posters even recommended themselves...not sure how credible of a recommendation that could be..."
> 
> yeah I've recommended a list . Most of these people I have had knowledge of in some form over 20 years . I've followed their breeding career paths. They are consistently producing dogs that are on target for their goals. I personally would not hesitate in owning any one of their dogs .
> Oh and by the way , lighten up, eh , I don't have pups, won't have pups available --- .


Why is it for pete's sake? OP went from Mittelwest/importing, to emailing every single breeder YOU recommended. He has no idea who you are, what your experience is, or WHY you recommended any of those breeders. It's also extremely terrible to be recommending yourself in a post, sorry that no one else seems to have a problem with it, but when someone new comes on this forum asking for advice, thinking that people here are highly knowledgeable, the last thing they need is people recommending themselves.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Why is it for pete's sake? OP went from Mittelwest/importing, to emailing every single breeder YOU recommended. He has no idea who you are, what your experience is, or WHY you recommended any of those breeders. It's also extremely terrible to be recommending yourself in a post, sorry that no one else seems to have a problem with it, but when someone new comes on this forum asking for advice, thinking that people here are highly knowledgeable, the last thing they need is people recommending themselves.


Just because I emailed them does certainly NOT mean I will be buying a pup from them, I'm simply getting more info!!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RyanNeus said:


> Just because I emailed them does certainly NOT mean I will be buying a pup from them, I'm simply getting more info!!


I understand that...but the fact is that you've been pointed in a certain direction. I'm not judging what you're doing, you're doing everything you should be doing.

I do have to say that seeing the dogs in person guarantees way more than reading forum posts or websites. Yes, they're living things, but the fact is this forum tends to only have "happy" stories and people tend to only post the success stories. Mostly because "breeder bashing" isn't allowed, and so anytime there is a bad experience, it quickly gets shoved under the rug.

You posted some very lofty goals for yourself and for your future dog. The best way to understand what is asked of a protection dog or even an IPO dog is to see it, to ask questions, and to compare as many dogs as possible to understand what it is you want to see out of a dog. When you see that, you ask those people where they got their dog, ask for the pedigree, and figure out from there what you should be looking for.

Although all the breeders that were recommended have a great track record of producing solid dogs, its really up to you to understand what you want, and the only way to do that is to get experience. At this point, you can either get that experience before purchasing a puppy, or you get it after once you start training in whatever venue you choose.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> when someone new comes on this forum asking for advice, thinking that people here are highly knowledgeable


Edit: You are also assuming "new forum member" = stupid, which is WRONG. I may not have much knowledge on gsd breeds in particular but after doing much research and asking around and watching hours lengths of videos, I have gained quite a bit of knowledge, if you are underestimating the ability of someone to learn through internet that is a whole different argument I'd rather not get into due to non relevance but all I will say is you do not know who I am, you never met me personally so how are you about to step up and judge my willingness and ability to adapt and learn as a human being? Hop off your high horse bud...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RyanNeus said:


> Edit: You are also assuming "new forum member" = stupid, which is WRONG. I may not have much knowledge on gsd breeds in particular but after doing much research and asking around and watching hours lengths of videos, I have gained quite a bit of knowledge, if you are underestimating the ability of someone to learn through internet that is a whole different argument I'd rather not get into due to non relevance but all I will say is you do not know who I am, you never met me personally so how are you about to step up and judge my willingness and ability to adapt and learn as a human being? Hop off your high horse bud...


Geez...no one is on a high horse. In a matter of a day you've gained all the knowledge you need. My work is done here. No one called you stupid, but its a pretty safe assumption that if you're going onto an internet forum to ask advice on breeders and where to purchase a dog, it means you don't know enough breeders in real life or have the real life connections to ask these questions of people that you should trust much more than complete strangers on the internet. Watching videos...you have no idea what you're watching. You can't ask questions about what you're seeing, you're just seeing awesome videos of dogs biting sleeves.

I'm by no means calling myself an expert, I actually wish I had joined a forum before I got my dog and gotten the advice I'm giving you. Although I got really lucky with my dog, it was PURE luck. Happily, I learned enough in the last 3 years and my second dog came from someone who I met through training and got to know them as friends and truly know what their morals are. I was also able to watch the dam work/train for the last three years, and a few of the dogs out of the sire as well. That guaranteed me that the dog was going to be capable of the things I needed from it...not youtube.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I understand that...but the fact is that you've been pointed in a certain direction. I'm not judging what you're doing, you're doing everything you should be doing.
> 
> I do have to say that seeing the dogs in person guarantees way more than reading forum posts or websites. Yes, they're living things, but the fact is this forum tends to only have "happy" stories and people tend to only post the success stories. Mostly because "breeder bashing" isn't allowed, and so anytime there is a bad experience, it quickly gets shoved under the rug.
> 
> ...


Thank you for understanding, I have learned how to look through and read a pedigree and I have been requesting said information and more. I just don't like being immediately questioned of my learning abilities due to a "forum ranking" by people who have never met me.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thank you --- "Although all the breeders that were recommended have a great track record of producing solid dogs"
that is why I recommended them.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RyanNeus said:


> Thank you for understanding, I have learned how to look through and read a pedigree and I have been requesting said information and more. I just don't like being immediately questioned of my learning abilities due to a "forum ranking" by people who have never met me.


I'm sorry...but reading a pedigree and knowing what the dogs in that pedigree bring to a breeding are two different things.

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that there is so much more to this game than just what the papers say, or what people tell you. I'll always trust the people I know in real life, that I train with, way more than anyone on this forum. But the only way to make those connections, is to get out there and meet them. It's not that I doubt your learning abilities...but the interweb cannot teach you even 1% of what you can learn by going to watch the dogs and working with the dogs. Unless you have an expert sitting over your shoulder, explaining everything that is going on in a video...you'll never see the small intricacies and differences between two dogs doing the same thing in a novice's eyes.

I'm a novice, I'm not afraid to admit it. It's not a bad thing. It's actually a great thing. Be an open book, learn everything you can. But don't think that the knowledge you've gained over the internet is anything near what you'll get once you start working with your future pup.

As a caution...I'll warn you not to read too much. Many times people get "theory" in their head and don't quite understand that it doesn't always translate to real life. The more you read, the more you start to expect a square peg to fit into a round hole, and its not always like that. This is why the best thing to do is get real life experience.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Should be a simple decision/selection process. Look for dogs that accomplished something noteworthy in areas you are interested then track to lines/breeders. No long explanations needed, results speak for themselves.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I'm sorry...but reading a pedigree and knowing what the dogs in that pedigree bring to a breeding are two different things.
> 
> What I'm trying to get you to understand is that there is so much more to this game than just what the papers say, or what people tell you. I'll always trust the people I know in real life, that I train with, way more than anyone on this forum. But the only way to make those connections, is to get out there and meet them. It's not that I doubt your learning abilities...but the interweb cannot teach you even 1% of what you can learn by going to watch the dogs and working with the dogs. Unless you have an expert sitting over your shoulder, explaining everything that is going on in a video...you'll never see the small intricacies and differences between two dogs doing the same thing in a novice's eyes.
> 
> ...


I completely understand what you are saying but you aren't listening, I want the learning experience and I will be guided by local gsd owners (also my father has working dog experience as I mentioned a while ago) and internet contacts. I will not only base my knowledge on the internet... and I understand that buying a GSD in a way is like adopting a child and there are many variables to consider and research. I'm not ignorant, and I'm sorry if I came off that way at first. This is after all the internet and there are a lot of fools out there but I will assure you I will take every matter into consideration when purchasing a new pup. Thank you.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

Packen said:


> Should be a simple decision/selection process. Look for dogs that accomplished something noteworthy in areas you are interested then track to lines/breeders. No long explanations needed, results speak for themselves.


Yea it should be pretty simple but there are SO many options and I cant find the perfect one, I'm gonna put a lot of time into this though. 

So far my list includes blackthorn, crookedcreek, eichenluft, johnsonhaus, and staatsmacht.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

When you actually look at notable achievements the list always gets much smaller.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Geez...no one is on a high horse. In a matter of a day you've gained all the knowledge you need. My work is done here. No one called you stupid, but its a pretty safe assumption that if you're going onto an internet forum to ask advice on breeders and where to purchase a dog, it means you don't know enough breeders in real life or have the real life connections to ask these questions of people that you should trust much more than complete strangers on the internet. Watching videos...you have no idea what you're watching. You can't ask questions about what you're seeing, you're just seeing awesome videos of dogs biting sleeves.
> 
> I'm by no means calling myself an expert, I actually wish I had joined a forum before I got my dog and gotten the advice I'm giving you. Although I got really lucky with my dog, it was PURE luck. Happily, I learned enough in the last 3 years and my second dog came from someone who I met through training and got to know them as friends and truly know what their morals are. I was also able to watch the dam work/train for the last three years, and a few of the dogs out of the sire as well. That guaranteed me that the dog was going to be capable of the things I needed from it...not youtube.


Good post. Op acquired quite a bit of knowledge from watching hours of videos? Lol. Thinking importing a dog means less health/temperament issues? Sounds exactly like a newbie. Newbie doesn't equal stupid but it sure doesn't equal knowledgeable. 

I agree with actually seeing dogs. HUGE difference from watching a dog bite a sleeve on YouTube vs real life. Not to mention you can send a dog on a long bite 10 times and just take the best/more flashy one and post that one to YouTube and discard the rest. Not to also mention a dog that looks good on you tube does not mean it's a dog you want to live with. Any dog can be made to look good on video. It's called editing.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> Good post. Op acquired quite a bit of knowledge from watching hours of videos? Lol. Thinking importing a dog means less health/temperament issues? Sounds exactly like a newbie. Newbie doesn't equal stupid but it sure doesn't equal knowledgeable.
> 
> I agree with actually seeing dogs. HUGE difference from watching a dog bite a sleeve on YouTube vs real life. Not to mention you can send a dog on a long bite 10 times and just take the best/more flashy one and post that one to YouTube and discard the rest. Not to also mention a dog that looks good on you tube does not mean it's a dog you want to live with. Any dog can be made to look good on video. It's called editing.


I did not need your input ok... I never said anything about youtube, I watch Ustream videos of live recorded shows and I messaged people and owners with plenty of questions. You guys are acting like I'm looking for a dog only for schutzhund which is wrong, I am looking for a well balanced gsd, and excuse me for being a noob at first, I did not know anything about GSDs in particular until recently since I've been asking local owners and friends, my father knows a bit too. Seeing the dogs makes a difference but not for what I'm looking for. Plenty of people have ordered German shepherds without knowing anything AT ALL before hand and they grow up fine as long as you are constantly talking to a club or other owners ect, throughout the dogs life. Just because I don't go to a show doesn't mean I wont get a good match. I also have a neighbor with a few work line GSDs and he lets me walk them sometimes and play with them in his yard which is a decent size and he offered to help with anything once I get a pup including letting me use his yard. I called him and asked about some of the breeders that were mentioned here and he said that they are pretty good and he knows what I am looking for.


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## RyanNeus (Apr 21, 2014)

Its so sad how people here get so riled up over this stuff they read and immediately make assumptions. I understand many people don't trust the internet or videos but they do help. And in NO WAY am I saying to only base knowledge off of the internet cause that is for obvious reasons a bad choice... But it certainly will not hurt to watch videos and ask questions online, yea it's not as good as in person but you can still learn some valuable information. Read through my full thread instead of ignoring the newer posts. I am learning and I never said I knew everything, I said I am willing to learn but if I so happen to buy a pup before going to a show it wont be the end of the world, I'm quite capable of adapting. Remember what you are reading was typed out by a HUMAN.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

From my point of view, I remember what I thought I understood when I was just getting into working dogs, and compare it to what I know now, and I was a trainer for years before I trained my first working line GSD or Mal.

First hand experience working in the venue you are interested in, and having a mentor, was far more important to me, and a much greater resource of knowledge, than years of research.


David Winners


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

OP, you posted about how you'd like this dog to be capable of either personal protection, helping your dad with security, or IPO. Interacting with pets, although they are working lines, won't give you the understanding of what it takes to have a dog that can put up with the pressure of either of those "venues." I'm not saying you're going to get all your information from the internet, and I'm actually not telling you to go to the show (unless you go for fun) because you're unlikely to have many questions or anyone to ask them of at a show. What I'm telling you is to start researching the club you'd like to join to TEACH your eventual dog the things you want. At training is when you'll see dogs make mistakes, probably get pushed past what is expected of them at a trial, and you'll be able to ask people why certain things are being done the way they are or what it is they're trying to either teach the dog or control in the dog.

None of the people you really mentioned sound like they have current working dog experience. Your neighbor has working lines, that doesn't mean they have any idea what to look for when it comes to an IPO dog. If you do have all those local GSD owners, do they work in IPO? If they do, I'm surprised you're not asking them where they got their dogs from, as that is probably your best bet.

And I get it, it does sound like this dog is going to be a pet first, and that's fine (both of mine are). But the worst thing that can happen is that a year or two into his life you realize that he's not capable of doing IPO or some other venue you're interested in. I'm sure the dog will be loved 100% and still live a good life, but you'll be restricted as to what you can do with him...and I've seen it happen to people, its not fun when you know for the next 10 years you won't be able to do X with your dog. Or possibly your dad decides he really does need a dog to help him in his business, and your dog isn't capable...so you're going to go out, get another dog? Start training that one? What happens to the first one? IPO/PP training is quite intensive, and dogs notice when one dog is getting a lot more time/energy put into it. I'm not saying this would happen, but these are all things to consider, which is why WATCHING the dogs is way more important than sending out emails, calling people, reading pedigrees filled with IPO3s and everything else that is a dime a dozen at this point.

And although the people around you might sound like they know what they're talking about, some part of you didn't think that was enough and so you went on an internet forum asking for advice. Maybe its just me, but when I see a post about "where should I get a dog?" it signals to me that the poster doesn't have enough trustworthy or knowledgeable connections in real life, and so they're asking STRANGERS with questionable amounts of experience, for advice.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP said "So far my list includes blackthorn, crookedcreek, eichenluft, johnsonhaus, and staatsmacht"

martemchik I hope you are not referring to these people "None of the people you really mentioned sound like they have current working dog experience."

"doesn't have enough trustworthy or knowledgeable connections in real life, and so they're asking STRANGERS with questionable amounts of experience, for advice. "

always nice to broaden your base of knowledge . And yet those with limited , next to no experience provide answers.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A couple of other Ohio breeders that compete with their own dogs and are several generations into their breeding programs. 

Ohio Breeder of AKC German Sheph

Vom Haus Weinbrand

I think I read that you are in NW Ohio? You might visit clubs in both Ohio, Michigan and Indiana. Click on clubs. 

United Schutzhund Clubs of America ? Region/Events


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

I agree with the other posters on this page of the thread. Going to trainings and meeting people and learning is far more valuable than most anything you can get on the internet. I also agree that going to show isn't gonna help you learn a lot unless you know people who are willing to take the time to walk you through each phase of the trial and tell you what a certain dog did wrong in its OBED or in it's protection routine or in it's track. You see a finished product at shows and trials and especially on the National/World level. OP you sound like your a smart person and I think with the proper guidance and training you'd be able to do anything with a dog that was capable of it. I personally have gotten my dogs from someone who is head of a Club and has trailed dogs to IPO 3 on numerous occasions and is willing to help me train mine and let me join the IPO/SCHH club. Forming a relationship with someone that is active in the sport and being accepted into a club will help you get a dog that can do all the things (PP/IPO) that you will want the dog to do. There are active trialling breeders that if you form friendships with over time and get to know them you could trust them to pick a working pup for you and in fact, most breeders pick the pup that will best suit your needs and really don't let buyers have much say. All everyone is recommending is go to a club and get to know people and dogs who are active in the sport and learn. Get to know them and see what they say. The choice is yours of course .


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

We were all new once...wish I still was-lol


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wish I was 30 yrs younger and new


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

carmspack said:


> OP said "So far my list includes blackthorn, crookedcreek, eichenluft, johnsonhaus, and staatsmacht"
> 
> martemchik I hope you are not referring to these people "None of the people you really mentioned sound like they have current working dog experience."
> 
> ...


I was talking about the people OP is saying are helping him in real life.

Always nice to broaden your base of knowledge, and yet those with limited English skills provide answers.

There is nothing wrong with getting advice from those of us that are "new." I have a much better understanding of where OP is at right now because I was just there 4 years ago. I've realized how much I have learned in the last 4 years and that's why I'm telling OP to go out and get that knowledge. I'm not giving any advice on where to get dogs, or telling the OP any of the places he has contacted are bad, because I don't have experience or knowledge of many of them. I'm just giving OP my opinion on how seeing dogs is way different than looking things up on the internet.

I was going to say that those people on the forum that have a lot of experience can back me up on this because those of you that have been doing it for decades got all your experience off the internet (it wasn't available back then). But then, Carmen, you again have to get snarky about how much experience you have and how those of us with less shouldn't be allowed to share our opinion...by the way, when was the last time you actually saw/met any of the dogs from the breeders you just mentioned? Or are you also following their breeding programs online, through forums, through "title achievements" in magazines?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP here is a question for you.

Does your state require or have security services regulations in the use of a k9 and handler ?

The dog may be intended for use in your Dad's business but the attitude has to be professional . You have to protect yourself and your Dad's business from liability , especially in a litigious society. 

General security work is patrol . 

BALANCE --- sound temperament , no environmental issues not to sound or surface . You want to have these qualities present naturally , not through training , or conditioning or desensitizing. 

Some dogs that you see at club level schutzhund clubs might fit the bill. Many would not . Depends on the area , depends on the club .
Some are more competitive and polished , better decoys , attract better participants . Some are a bit on the rag-tag and are for fun (no problem with that) and the sociability of the get-togethers after and the refreshments and discussions after. 

here is another person / breeder that I recommend and admire , with decades of experience and results , Julia Priest von Sontausen German Shepherd Dogs


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lhczth said:


> A couple of other Ohio breeders that compete with their own dogs and are several generations into their breeding programs.
> 
> Ohio Breeder of AKC German Sheph
> 
> ...


There isn't much of anything in NW Ohio as far as clubs. There are a couple decent trainers doing agility and OB, but no bite sports. It's where I call home.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The OH working dog facebook page I linked early in this thread may be of help. They can steer the OP away from certain individuals and suggest some good ones to train with.
Here it is again: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OhioWorkingDogs/?fref=ts


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

David Winners said:


> There isn't much of anything in NW Ohio as far as clubs. There are a couple decent trainers doing agility and OB, but no bite sports. It's where I call home.


Sounds like a wonderful business opportunity...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I know David. That is why I told him to look in MI and IN too.  Our club is about 45 minutes to 1.5 hours depending on where in NW Ohio. There is one closer up 127 and another just east of 23. Heck the Indy clubs may be a better option.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm moving to Oklahoma LOL


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

If I were going to be around I would be up in Michigan for sure. Indy is about 2.5 hours from me. I'm in Bryan, which is about 30 minutes NW of Defiance. 

Nothing there at all.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Not much in OK either? So many area's are 'dry' when it comes to good training.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Not much in OK either? So many area's are 'dry' when it comes to good training.


Tell me about it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I will start up Nosework and OB training classes as soon as I get settled in, but I'm not equipped or experienced enough to do an IPO club. I plan on checking out Bill Jenkins in Texoma and Khoi Pham in Dallas when I can.


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