# wanted this puppy so bad but cant ignore



## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

well this puppy ireally wanted he is from a really serious working bitch imported from the czech and has her zvv1 

but the downside is she is good with kids and will wag and let them pet her but she will bite an adult that trys to 

the sire is also a titled czech the goal of this breeding was to produce serious police dogs and ppd dogs 

the puppy is very biddable and smart at only 5 months i really want him 


is there a seciont on this forum i can post the pedagree and breeder and get more feedback help? I have no one in real life


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Sounds like with your experience you need to stay away from and find another that you can handle easier.

And yes, if you scroll down on the main board, you can find the section where you can post pedigrees.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

saucy said:


> well this puppy ireally wanted he is from a really serious working bitch imported from the czech and has her zvv1
> 
> but the downside is she is good with kids and will wag and let them pet *her but she will bite an adult that trys to*
> 
> ...


Five months old and already biting adults? This is from the breeder's information?

I would NOT take a puppy that did that. Now if it was play biting, that's something else.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

nono the puppy does not biter the mother will though she does not like strangers

the bitch has been worked under a lot of pressure and will keep attacking its not fear based agression


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

saucy said:


> nono the puppy does not biter the mother will though she does not like strangers
> 
> the bitch has been worked under a lot of pressure and will keep attacking its not fear based agression


it could be. if a dog is worked hard in defense all the time early on, it becomes wary and scared of the unknown. biting people for no reason reeks of fear


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

saucy said:


> nono the puppy does not biter the mother will though she does not like strangers
> 
> *the bitch has been worked under a lot of pressure* and will keep attacking its not fear based agression


I thought working a 5 month old puppy like that is pretty much guaranteed to assure fear based aggression. That's all such a young puppy can give. 

GSD Puppy Blog | 10 weeks to 6 months | Schutzhund training


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

maggie THE MOTHER is the one who worked hard under pressure the mother also has a title in zvv1 

the six month old puppy i was interested in has NEVER WORKED and has never done anything other than be a puppy.l......


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

so you don't have this puppy? Your 'thinking" about getting it??


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

yeah i was http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/688337.html thi8s is his pedagree the sire is a sweetheart the dam is overly sharp


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

saucy said:


> well this puppy ireally wanted he is from a really serious working bitch imported from the czech and has her zvv1
> 
> *but the downside is she is good with kids and will wag and let them pet her but she will bite an adult that trys to *
> 
> ...


Ok, so it's the MOTHER that bites everyone, right? Not the puppy?

If the puppy is a friendly confident bundle of joy, then you may do fine with it then. Sorry I was confused with your initial post.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

mother will ignore people but if they touch her she bites unless she knows them well at six months puppy is confidant can handle gun fire just about anything but at six months he is already showing signs of being sharp will go at the end of his leash and bark at some people and is a little bit suspecious but always confident and has very good nerves he has never showed any sign of fear (according to breeder)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

so why did you pass him up?? just curious.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

puppy is very biddable very eager to please a fast learner i did not pass him up yet i am still interested but i wanted to know what others thought of his pedagree the breeding etc...


the mother who will bite if a stranger pets her is what worries me


father is from a well known breeder who is canczech in vancouver


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

You sound like a good noivce based on the questions your asking (which is good that your asking!).

Have you thought about getting an older dog?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't know if that would bother me..probably not if the puppy was happy/biddable and a fast learner as you say especially since it's 5 months old, your getting a better picture of what he's like. One thing I'm not crazy about, is the advice given of not letting anyone touch him, no socializing IF that was the advice you were given by the breeder 

Did you have any specific plans for the puppy?


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

well the breeder said he personally does not let strangers touch his dogs unless they are really young puppys 

he did say tho he lets kids touch all his dogs 

no solid plans yet was going to be a pet/protector for an active household 

hiking jogging skiiing partner


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

another question there are a lot of police dogs out there that would bite a stranger if the stranger pets them correct? just cause a working dog will bite a stranger does not mean it has bad nerves correct?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

correct and correct. 

Could very well be trained to be highly suspicious and mistrustfull of adults and/or lack of socialization.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

saucy said:


> nono the puppy does not biter the mother will though she does not like strangers
> 
> the bitch has been worked under a lot of pressure and will keep attacking its not fear based agression


 
Sounds like a GREAT temperament - biting friendly adults who try to pet her!!!!!


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

pup is also handler soft this is the breeders first litter


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

here is the motehr in action 
YouTube - Felloffher3's Channel does not seem weak nerved does she? her name is marge


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Nice dog, I like her.

I'm not sure you know the definition of weak nerves? because I'm not sure why you would ask if dog shows weak nerves /since I don't see it from this video, but again, I am no expert.

I think maybe you need to do more research yourself on the differences in lines, the differences in nerves/drives.

I tend to like this article, it may be useful to you Elem. of Temperament


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Interesting - I went to the breeder's website. They are in my general area, about two hours away. Never heard of them. The dogs look nice. I think the U tube user name is the same as a member on PDB.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Nice dog, I like her.
> 
> I'm not sure you know the definition of weak nerves? because I'm not sure why you would ask if dog shows weak nerves /since I don't see it from this video, but again, I am no expert.
> 
> ...


I think someone else referenced weak nerves as the reason she was biting.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

yeAH jean is right someone ref weak nerves as the reason she may bite people i know what weak nerves is 


weak nerves = fear biters


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

castle are u looking for a puppy also?


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

it is the breeders first litter but the breeder is the best one i have ever delt with seems to know A LOT about dogs and never trys to push his dogs on you and doesnt mind any questions

all his dogs love kids and great w cats


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

saucy said:


> castle are u looking for a puppy also?


Oh no, I' already have the perfect pup! 

What are your goals for this pup, saucy?


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi guys,

I'm the owner of Marge and the breeder of the puppy Saucy is reffering to.

Marge in no way has weak nerves and is far from a fear bitter. She comes from strong working lines known for producing police dogs. She has strong natural defense, courage and good nerves. 

The question Saucy asked me "If a idiot child came up to Marge on a trail and touched her what would she do?" 

I replied she would greet a child in a friendly manner. If it was an adult they would get bit. She's a protection dog and is completely neutral to people, but will not allow strangers to touch her or me. I bought her at 3.5 years old and she is a product of her genetics and former handlers training goals.

I don't allow my dogs to be pet by people after 18 weeks old, until then they are socialized with as many people as possible. This doesn't make them mean or suspicious, it shows them people are ok and not a threat. I perfer a dog that's indifferent to people (my choice).

The puppy I offered to Saucy is a nice pup, he has natural sharpness and is a dog for protection or police work. He is far from handler soft, he is biddable and likes to please. This pup has rock solid nerves, is highly intelligent, very easy train and would be suitable for a novice because of his strong willingness to please. I also told Saucy that if he decides to purchase a puppy for this work he will need to find good people to train with and do as much reading as possible on owning a working dog.

I just wanted to clear up a few things.

Regards,

Adam


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Honestly, I would not buy this pup. Adam are you aware of the liability issues you may be creating? Why do you think it's ok for this female to bite someone who tries to pet her while you're out on a walk? I'm trying to get a better understanding, I'm not trying to be condescending. Shouldn't a neutral dog with rock solid nerves be ok with a stranger just petting them, especially if you're with them and give her the ok?


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

:lurking:


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

just lovely how she refers to a child as "idiot" because of natural curiosity.makes me wonder about her personality and is she really mature?warning bells.just a thought.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I too would pass on the puppy. 

This sounds like a dog that might be an awful lot for a novice, and it has been too long in an environment suspicious of strangers, with a dam who will bite strangers. 

All you are looking for is a hiking, jogging, etc partner. A serious working dog probably needs more than that. 

I am sure there are many types of protection training. I was under the impression that good protection training can mean the dog does not attack unless given the command. My friend's dog was imported fully protection trained, and the dog passed its CGC, and titles with no problems. That means being in close quarters with people, even with the owner out of the room at one test, and certainly people came up to it and pet it -- in the cgc test that is required.

So it sounds like the goals of this type of protection training, requires the bitch to decide to bite rather than be told to bite. 

She may be an awesome dog with awesome nerves, and be exactly what her owners wants. And she may not be. She may have been sold because she was a liability and would bite in non-threatening situations. We really do not know what was in the mind of the person who sold her.

The puppy has been provided with a gene set from this bitch, but she has also been imprinted by this bitch. So her temperament will most likely be similar to the bitch's overall temperament. If that is truly rock solid nerve, it will not matter what you want to train her for, she should be able to be what you want. But if she does have some fear-aggressiveness, or even suspiciousness imprinted by the dam, it would have been far better to have gotten her at eight to ten weeks and socialized her extensively.

Novice dog with an experienced bitch, novice bitch with an experienced dog --makes things easier. 

So too with novice dog owner, so much better to go with an experienced breeder, who breeds dogs that they do something with in a venue that you are interested in. 

When you are an experienced dog owner, gambling with a novice breeder, will be a lot easier for you. 

Unfortunately, the experienced dog owners, people serious about the breed, and doing stuff with their dogs, generally go to the more experienced breeders. There is a reason for that, they generally make fewer mistakes and have better dogs available to them. But this makes it very difficult for novice breeders to get started. They are usually stuck with novice owners, and novice owners with novice breeders are where you are going to run in with the most problems.

If you go with a novice, go with a novice who has a good support system, a mentor, a club affiliation, known in training/trialing or showing circles. 

Ordinary dog owners, and especialy novice GSD owners, should not be out buying dogs that are bred to be police dogs. Police dogs are great, but the vast majority of police dogs out there right now, have too much energy and drive and personality for your average person who wants a hiking/jogging companion on weekends. They are dogs that need to be challenged mentally and physically on a regular basis. And a dog that seems to be very biddable, and easy to manage/train, might be a whole different story when placed with a newbie. 

Does the breeder of this pup have suggestions of where the new owner might go for good training for the dog? 

My advice to the OP is to get a good middle of the road pup from an experienced breeder, after letting the breeder know exactly what your expectations are for the puppy, let them match you up with one (litters have a variety of temperament and drives). After four to five years, of learning with the dog and taking that dog as far as the two of you can go, then go for a dog that is specifically for one thing or another.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

As seen in others threads from the OP, I don't think they know what they want. They were slamming another breeder in a thread in another section and the breeder had to come onto this site to defend themself.

Too many times novice buyers come into these forums and pitch a story (many times a sob story) about a breeder and everyone feels for them. Time for these buyers to look in the mirror and be honest about themselves and what they want and what they strongly feel they can handle. Breeders take too much b.s from people and look like a wolf while the buyer comes away looking like a lamb. There are always 3 sides to a story and I now don't take everything I hear from a buyer as "the truth" as many paint the picture in a favorable light for themselves. Again...look at the OP other threads.

Now I am very familiar with Adam and would have NO PROBLEM purchasing a pup especially this one from him. Of course you have to know what you are looking for and what you can handle. I prefer a pup with the qualities that were mentioned (sharpness, rock solid nerves and a high willingness to please). Sounds like the making of a great pup and as he said it is for a person that wants a PP or law enforcement dog. **** czech dogs ARE NOT for everyone. Some say they are not for novices. I say a novice can have them if they are willing to take the time and effort into properly raising one. I have 2 and can never see myself owning any other line but a czech. Now again I see a trainer often and have put in time and effort it takes to properly raise it.

Every dog is a liability so I get tired of hearing, "that dog is a liability". Everything you do in life has some liability. Just because that pup isn't for you does it mean it isn't for someone else. Some can just handle more dog than others. To me he was hoenst with the OP and left it at that.

I wont say what anyone shouldn't have. I am no one's daddy and refuse to start being one (other than to my 3 yr old). Everyone learns at different speeds. Nothing wrong with ordinary joe citizen owning a dog that was bred to be used for police work. Breeders job is to tell them what they are getting and be honest. If person feels like that si what they want and say they are willing to put in time and effort and training then so be it. I'd be pissed if a breeder told me, "your a novice this is too much dog for you." Im a grown @ss man and can make my own decisions and know what challenges I want to take on.


Again, Id have no problem taking on this pup with the quickness. I think the OP just has no clue what they want and is just making threads about different breeders as if they have been telling them b.s. and now come onto forums to make it seem like they are being taken advantage of by sellers looking to make a quick buck.


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

I didn't come on here to debate the fine points of dog ownership. Owning a protection dog is a responsibility not to be taken lightly. I have given the OP as much information on the pup and what he could expect of him. I've also advised the OP to look around at other dogs and to speak with other breeders before making a choice.

This is my first litter, but please don't assume anything about my experience, goals or my dedication to the breed.

Selzer,

You have an open invatation to come see and work my dogs. Please refrain from speculating or making assumptions until you've seen them. 

Adam


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ace952 said:


> As seen in others threads from the OP, I don't think they know what they want. They were slamming another breeder in a thread in another section and the breeder had to come onto this site to defend themself.
> 
> Too many times novice buyers come into these forums and pitch a story (many times a sob story) about a breeder and everyone feels for them. Time for these buyers to look in the mirror and be honest about themselves and what they want and what they strongly feel they can handle. Breeders take too much b.s from people and look like a wolf while the buyer comes away looking like a lamb. There are always 3 sides to a story and I now don't take everything I hear from a buyer as "the truth" as many paint the picture in a favorable light for themselves. Again...look at the OP other threads.
> 
> ...


I mostly agree with you. I agree that buyers often sing and dance to a whole different tune, and when they walk away unhappy, they will make their sob story sound truly horrific.

However, the first thing out of everyone's mouth when they think about breeding their dog is "don't." When people persist, and go deeper, maybe that person will have the right temperament to breed properly. 

Why not so for getting a pup out of a litter bred to be police dogs? If all of us hiccuped our don'ts and the guy walks away from the puppy, then the chances are he does not have the temperament to manage that much dog. These dogs are not for just anyone. People need to prove that even though they ARE a novice, they DO have a clue. 

Maybe for you, you tell the person how it is and let them decide. Are you a breeder? Because, you are forgetting that you are not dealing with motorcyles or sewing machines here. You are dealing with a living, breathing, creature that you care about. A critter that has nerves and personaility and temperament. A critter, who in the wrong hands, can make you, the breeder look bad. But more importantly, a critter, who if matched improperly, may very well land in a shelter or in a rescue, or even be euthanized. 

So if someone tells you, that the dog is too much for you, you can convince them that it is not, but if a breeder just pockets your hundreds and tell you to have a nice day, and way too many breeders do, then the dollars are more important than getting the puppy into the right hands.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't know Adam from Adam (sorry about the pun but would like to say, it sounds like he is producing dogs for working situations and it's his choice on what he does for the socialization aspect of things.

Did no one read the he got Marge (dam) when she was 3.5 years old and she came to him this way???? Because she is not tolerant of adults touching her doesn't make her a 'bad' dog nor does it ruin her offspring in my opinion anyway..

I agree with Ace in that EVERY dog is a liability and czech dogs are NOT for everyone.

Personally, while I wouldn't have a problem with one of these dogs, a novice owner very well may and while I don't know the OP personally, I would suggest a different type of gsd for him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

AdamR said:


> I didn't come on here to debate the fine points of dog ownership. Owning a protection dog is a responsibility not to be taken lightly. I have given the OP as much information on the pup and what he could expect of him. I've also advised the OP to look around at other dogs and to speak with other breeders before making a choice.
> 
> This is my first litter, but please don't assume anything about my experience, goals or my dedication to the breed.
> 
> ...


Adam, I am not interested in Czech dogs, they are not my cup of tea. So I have no desire to come and see or work with your dogs. 

I do not know you from Adam. Sorry. When someone comes on here asking about a situation like the OP described, I would not suggest they purchase a high level working line dog from a novice breeder. If the person knew what they were doing, they would not be on here asking. 

I thought I was being very politically correct in any mention of you or your dogs. I will not encourage a newbie shep owner to purchase a dog from a first time breeder. 

Nobody can say, "I told him what I was looking for, and he matched me up perfectly with a puppy." Not possible. In fact, what experience do you have in knowing what that five month old bundle of teeth and poo is going to turn into down the line? You have not raised your pups from whelping to adulthood yet. 

So encouraging a new owner to get an older puppy from a first-time breeder, out of a bitch who will bite friendly strangers, just does not sit well with me.


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

The OP told me he was looking for a protection dog, that was good with small animals and that would live in the house with him. 

One thing you've failed to look at or ask about is the sire of the puppy and what he brought to this breeding. 

I agree with you regarding a high drive pup with a novice owner, this is why I have given the OP as much information possible. If a novice owner has a club or group to train with that can guide them and help them train they will be fine. I stressed the importance of this to the OP. I have never asked him or pressured him to buy my pup, infact I've told him to keep looking before making a choice.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

"As seen in others threads from the OP, I don't think they know what they want. They were slamming another breeder in a thread in another section and the breeder had to come onto this site to defend themself."

PLEASe dont make stuff up no one was slamming another breeder NO breeder was even mentioned the topic was about breeders that hate questions and i used that as an example.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Did no one read the he got Marge (dam) when she was 3.5 years old and she came to him this way???? Because she is not tolerant of adults touching her doesn't make her a 'bad' dog nor does it ruin her offspring in my opinion anyway..
> 
> I agree with Ace in that EVERY dog is a liability and czech dogs are NOT for everyone.
> 
> Personally, while I wouldn't have a problem with one of these dogs, a novice owner very well may and while I don't know the OP personally, I would suggest a different type of gsd for him.


 
Jakoda..your first paragraph is very important. He got her that way at 3.5 years old. Who knows what she went thru that is now her make up. Not indicative of what she may breed. Don't know what she will breed until she has a litter and then you still need to look at the male as well as the rest fo the dogs in the pedigree.

I swear those little rat dogs are more of a liability than the big one's. lol

Yeah the OP seems a little lost on what they really want. We have seen 2 breeders now come on here after having dealt with them who I am sure now wouldn't sell them a dog period.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

and yeah a big part of the reason was a protection dog but i wanted to keep that out of this cause things always get "heated" 


face it more then half the people who own a gsd want it partly for protection (something a breeder near me told me)


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

AdamR said:


> One thing you've failed to look at or ask about is the sire of the puppy and what he brought to this breeding.
> 
> I agree with you regarding a high drive pup with a novice owner, this is why I have given the OP as much information possible. If a novice owner has a club or group to train with that can guide them and help them train they will be fine. I stressed the importance of this to the OP. I have never asked him or pressured him to buy my pup, infact I've told him to keep looking before making a choice.


Exactly. You have to look at the sire and the rest of the dogs in the pedigree. 

I personally have A LOT of dog and im a novice to GSD's. Jinopo sent me EXACTLY what I asked for and then some. As a responsible owner, I found a trainer at 16 weeks and have stayed with one since and won't stop.

All about owners commitment.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

Ace since when is asking questions on a forum a crime? wow if we all shut up like you say we should we would really get far. I ask a few questions on a forum you act like accused a breeder of committing murder. I sure wouldnt buy a dog from an anal breeder like you either.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

For the sake of tthe functioning of the board, it is best to keep things on a level of civil discussion, rather than personal attacks.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

AdamR said:


> I replied she would greet a child in a friendly manner. If it was an adult they would get bit. She's a protection dog and is completely neutral to people, but will not allow strangers to touch her or me. I bought her at 3.5 years old and she is a product of her genetics and former handlers training goals


Adam... isn't the point of a protection dog to protect it's handler? I've never owned or trained with one, so I really don't know and that's why I'm asking.

Why is it acceptable for just anyone (threat or not) to be bit by her? You mentioned she was neutral to people, but being bit when not being threatened doesn't seem very neutral to me. 

Also, why would a random adult be bit, but not a child? Does she know the difference between the two? How do you know the child wouldn't be bit as well?

Not implying she's a bad dog, but what made you choose to breed a dog that exhibits this type of fear based behavior? Don't you worry that she passes these type of traits on to her puppies?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is it a training issue or a genetic one??


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

How can one assume it is a fear based behavior?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

AdamR said:


> The OP told me he was looking for a protection dog, that was good with small animals and that would live in the house with him.
> 
> One thing you've failed to look at or ask about is the sire of the puppy and what he brought to this breeding.
> 
> I agree with you regarding a high drive pup with a novice owner, this is why I have given the OP as much information possible. *If a novice owner has a club or group to train with that can guide them and help them train they will be fine.* I stressed the importance of this to the OP. I have never asked him or pressured him to buy my pup, infact I've told him to keep looking before making a choice.


I do not like red flags and try to steer clear of blanket statements. I will not encourage a newbie owner to go with a first time breeder. As a breeder, though, I would not fault a breeder who sells to a newbie, even a first-time breeder. I think that you have to be careful, and your statement about the owner having a club or group to train with, is great. 

I do not know the OP from Adam either though, and this is not a reflection of him, but buyers in general. You have to check crap out. Sorry, you just cannot believe anyone's word anymore.

They may say, "I go to Tripple A Schutzhund for Training." That may mean that they have trained dogs there before. It may mean they regularly train there. It may mean that their friend trains there. It may mean they intend to train there. It may mean they had an appointment with an instructor and checked out the fascilities and price and class scedules. It may mean they drove past it. It may mean they ran by it on the internet. The location in their area may have been out of business for three years. 

The statement, "I am going to train him for obedience, agility, and tracking" may translate to one eight week session of basic household manners. 

It is hard with new owners because you have nothing to measure what they have done in the past. 

The OP has had an American GSD, and a Dobe in the past if I did not mix up people, so he is not as much of a newbie as I originally thought. When you have a point of reference, then you can listen to the commitment to training with current and previous dogs, and you can make a decision that way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I am not mentioning the sire. I have not looked at the dam's pedigree, nor the dog's because I am not an expert in those lines and would not know what to even look for. Yes, temperament can be improved or worsened by the sire as well. The dam though imprints the litter as well as providing genes. So I find her temperament/behavior even more important. 

I understand that the breeder did not choose to train this dog to bite any adult that comes up and touches her. My question is, why would anyone do this? Perhaps there is a reason. But it does make her more of a liability, and if it is a trained response, then it is unlikely to affect the puppies. But how do we know that? How does this breeder KNOW that? How do we know that she does not get so nervous around strangers that she bites first and asks questions later? 

I am not suggesting that since the mother bites people that come over and invade her self space, the pup will. But if she is biting out of some nervous reaction to being that close to people she does not know and trust, the chances are that that temperament issue could also be present in the pups even if it does not manifest itself the same way.

So, I think that I would pass on this. The breeder has this one litter, and I am certainly not experienced enough with these lines to feel comfortable with what is said about the dam. If he was more experienced, I might be able to see some of his pups grown to adulthood, and or read some responses of satisfied customers.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Samba said:


> How can one assume it is a fear based behavior?


Well if not feared based behavior - why else would a dog bite someone who is not a threat to them whatsoever and not given a command to bite (assuming the dog wasn't trained this way)?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Lucy Dog said:


> Adam... isn't the point of a protection dog to protect it's handler? I've never owned or trained with one, so I really don't know and that's why I'm asking.
> 
> Why is it acceptable for just anyone (threat or not) to be bit by her? You mentioned she was neutral to people, but being bit when not being threatened doesn't seem very neutral to me.
> 
> ...


My dogs are very forgiving of children. Kids can poke them pull a tail, things like that. Dogs do know kids are, well kids.

I have a couple of dogs that would tolerate a stranger petting them but would not be thrilled. If the stranger either thru ignorance or design started challenging the dog by his or her body language, gestures, postures it could get dicey.

My dogs are trained in personal protection and one of the training exercises we do is the dog sitting next to me off leash why an idiot is standing about 1o feet away screaming threatening and kicking stuff. They are trained to maintain the sit until given the command. 

But I would describe them the same way the breeder described his girl. I think we do it just to keep idiots away from our dogs.

Oh, and my dogs do have CGC's also.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Here is an example.


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

When you guys figure out why my bitch is the way she is give me a call. LOL. Until then, enjoy working it out.

It's been fun.

Adam


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Does anyone else think that that dog in the clip is showing some seriously, "I am not comfortable with this" signs?

It is too bad that the officer and dog did not know each other better. The officer should have been able to tell the reporter not to "tower over the dog" if that would be an issue. But I think that most of the statement was made looking in hindsite.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

i saw several signs of stress. But it is a lot easier to find them when looking for them in a clip then when you are part of the scenario.

Things can escalate quickly and you only have to be distracted for a minute. 

Which is why I tell people not to pet my dog if I don't know them. Much like the breeder referenced in this thread does.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

AdamR said:


> When you guys figure out why my bitch is the way she is give me a call. LOL. Until then, enjoy working it out.
> 
> It's been fun.
> 
> Adam


That's why we're asking. No one knows your dogs better than you. We can't ask questions?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What the dog did in Selzers clip.. Would that be considered acceptable behavior for a PPD? 

What about behavior in a PPD trained dog you were looking to breed?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Betty, in that clip, WE may see all kinds of signals but the guys don't seem to be picking up on them. 

I don't believe I saw anywhere that Adam lets Marge go nilly willy on any adult that approaches or believes that it's acceptable for her to nail an adult without reason..(where do people come up with those ideas??) 

So what if it's his first litter?? I see a nice pedigree on paper, and I believe most breeders had a first litter 

I will repeat, I think people buying a dog need to be really honest in what they want to live with, and breeders need to be honest in selling their puppies/dogs to appropriate homes..


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Lucy Dog said:


> What the dog did in Selzers clip.. Would that be considered acceptable behavior for a PPD?
> 
> What about behavior in a PPD trained dog you were looking to breed?


Actually that was my clip.<grin>

Based on the age of the dog I would say he is not fully trained and in fact was most likely just purchased as a green dog. My assumption only.

My point in posting it was that people some times do stupid things around dogs and while we train and am vigilant it is just easier to tell people to not pet our dogs. I would describe my suspicious bitch pretty much like the breeder did and she has never bitten anyone except on a training field.

Leaning over a dog and grabbing it by the neck like that is a challenge to the dog. How the dog reacts is going to depend on it's temperament and it's training.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A responsible breeder will look out for their puppy's well-being first. I doubt either Adam or Carm would be dishonest in where they place their dogs just to make a buck.
I think responsible breeders that are breeding the Czech or PP dogs tend to be a bit more cautious placing than many responsible SL breeders. 
I'm sure I'll get flamed for that statement, but it is the way I feel~the reason I say this is because anyone living with the stronger lines know that JQP can't handle one of them without support trainingwise, and they don't want to see their pups ending up in shelters. Though there will always be breeders who breed to make a buck, so I'm not making a blanket statement about all breeders...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

:thumbup:Jane


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe they are more careful than we are. Maybe they need to be. And I understand that everyone has to have a first litter in order to become a breeder, and those pups have to go somewhere. But, I would hope that someone into that level of training and protection would have some people with like desires lined up for those puppies.

The reason we say they will bite any adult, is because he said that the dog is fine with children, but if an adult comes up and touches the dog she will bite them. And he is ok with that. 

In our society, people are so nutty, that I see that as a HUGE liability. 

I also cannot see any reason why anyone would train a dog to bite like that.


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> That's why we're asking. No one knows your dogs better than you. We can't ask questions?


Lucy,

I don't mind the questions if they were just that.

"Not implying she's a bad dog, but what made you choose to breed a dog that exhibits this type of fear based behavior? Don't you worry that she passes these type of traits on to her puppies?"

What are you implying with these statements in the form of a question? 

If your genuinely interested in my dogs temperament research the lines behind her, I have spent countless hours doing it myself. Her lines produce these types of dogs, strong defence, highly protective, courage and tracking ability. 

Marge was put through the ringer so to speak a couple months after she arrived. This dog will not back down when challenged, has good nerve and will takle any on obstacle thrown at her.

What else would you like to know?


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

for those saying a working dog is to much for me, i actually have a trainer that is going to be working with me personally weekly she was going to asses the pup and we were going to take training from there

this person has a czecch shepherd of her own and also a blue heeler and knows what they are doing, i have met with them and they think i would be a great owner 

my set up is also perfect i have a fenced in yard and a large house and am very active


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

there is no point in this thread we might as well just delete it


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

saucy, if you think you can handle it, and Adam thinks one of his puppies would suit you,,I say go for it..since you have a trainer lined up who is experienced


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I kinda disagree, I think this thread has been a good one, it's been kept civil, and Adam has been nice enough to answer questions


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

AdamR said:


> Lucy,
> 
> I don't mind the questions if they were just that.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good alpha bitch in my book.

I personally love those/these type of dogs.
Again you got to know what you can handle and have trainers help.

Many people want nice dogs but then can't afford, get too lazy or dont care about training. Again that is the buyer.

People makie it sound like czech dogs are just mass murderers in the waiting...lol


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

no not after all this think i will have 2 find another place but it would be nice to delete this thread


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I kinda disagree, I think this thread has been a good one, it's been kept civil, and Adam has been nice enough to answer questions


 
You have been a book of sound advice today (as every other day I might also add.) :thumbup:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ace, oh mine is,,she rips to shreds frisbee's on a daily basis,, I should buy stock in a frisbee company


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Ace, oh mine is,,she rips to shreds frisbee's on a daily basis,, I should buy stock in a frisbee company


lol! And anytime you want to send that fine looking dog my way please do!!

I am glad I got mine to stop chewing the sofa. Now my socks on the other hand.......


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well ace I think you should send ME that alpine dawg ya got )))


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ace952 said:


> Sounds like a good alpha bitch in my book.
> 
> I personally love those/these type of dogs.
> Again you got to know what you can handle and have trainers help.
> ...


I'd much rather have a dog that is biddable, willing to work and not be a couch potato, a Czech line is just that! They just need to be worked and not left up to their own devices As long as the ones who have them in their lives know this it is all good...
Saucy, you haven't bashed the breeders whatsoever, they brought their names into the threads...not sure how they knew about the threads as you didn't link their websites. It is good to have this type of feedback IMO for everyone.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> well ace I think you should send ME that alpine dawg ya got )))


lol!

You want Pano Boy...I mean Jax??
He is limping now and I know its pano. Ughhh just as I was enjoying training too. How about he stays with you while he rehabs and I'll ease the burden by taking that lovely dog you have.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

awww been that pano route with one of my males, not a fun time for sure)

Masi can come but only if she brings the 10 tons of snow we have with her)


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I'd much rather have a dog that is biddable, willing to work and not be a couch potato, a Czech line is just that! They just need to be worked and not left up to their own devices As long as the ones who have them in their lives know this it is all good...
> Saucy, you haven't bashed the breeders whatsoever, they brought their names into the threads...not sure how they knew about the threads as you didn't link their websites. It is good to have this type of feedback IMO for everyone.


lol..so true as I learned that the hard way. Chewed under my sofa, chewed a hole in the carpet and everything else.

I agree this feedback is benefecial to everyone. Always great when you get both sides.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

did you layoff training when he had pano?

Jax is 6 months and I hate to stop training but I don't want the mess him up permanently

Oh no, no snow. it if 55 here and I have a parka on.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Two of my dogs had pano. We did no protection work, but regular obedience was ok(and a 6 month old will be fine doing no bitework
The dogs should self limit. I gave vitamin C to Karlo and it shortened his bouts. Rawfed but long legged in structure for both of mine. I think genetics and structure play a huge part in Pano...diet a little bit.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Two of my dogs had pano. We did no protection work, but regular obedience was ok(and a 6 month old will be fine doing no bitework
> The dogs should self limit. I gave vitamin C to Karlo and it shortened his bouts. Rawfed but long legged in structure for both of mine. I think genetics and structure play a huge part in Pano...diet a little bit.


Do I just pick up any ol Vitamin C pills from CVS or walgreens? Yeah he is long and on a raw diet too.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh my, 55 and a parka??? 

I was out doing dogs in my PJs this morning. We had this ice storm thing last night, but it must have been mid twenties anyway. It was certainly not in single digits like a week or so ago.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Do I just pick up any ol Vitamin C pills from CVS or walgreens? Yeah he is long and on a raw diet too.


Human grade C~I get mine from a big box grocery_....not_ walmart.

Start at 500mg and up it over a weeks time to 2000mg(split between meals). If you give EsterC, it may be too much calcium for a growing pup, but for one over a year, EsterC is recommended(easier on the gut) though more expensive.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

lol if this thread is civil and good what is a bad thread here then?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saucy, 

Some people here have looked at your posts, and they feel like you really do not know enough to start with a high drive, high energy working line dog from a first time breeder.

In the course of the thread, it sounds like maybe you have a trainer lined up, and maybe you have had some other dogs, and maybe you will be just fine with this puppy. 

Frankly, I think you need to grow into such a strong dog. And you could be setting yourself up for a whole lot more posts down in the puppy and adult behavior and aggression sections. Not because the pup is no good, maybe because the pup is great, or too good, maybe because the handler is not there yet. 

But you posted this thread because you wanted opinions, but when people give you honest opinions, but they are not what you want to hear, you say that it is not civil or that it is bad? 

Sorry, I think you need to take a step back and look at your postings and try to see it from the other side.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good luck
ZVV 1 is not such a big deal -- 
there are a lot of claims made about dogs producing , whatever, police dogs , and that claim is because they come from Czech or are "working lines" . Get the proof , what did THIS dog , THIS male produce . Himself. 

find out what the guy has been doing with the PUP.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

selzer no u do not get it 

i just did not want it to become a thread that blows up and breeder gets dragged into this and forced to defend themselves

i should not have posted it


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Looks like people have let that go - of course I have only read the last few posts! Everyone else can follow their lead - a lot of people don't start out so well here and eventually things work right out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm curious..and it is just curiousity because I like riddles...many people come here asking about specific breeders and it's not a big deal. You asked about specifics things that happened as you viewed them but never said what breeder you were talking about. So how did two different breeders show up, who had never posted before, specifically for your threads?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Jax08 said:


> I'm curious..and it is just curiousity because I like riddles...many people come here asking about specific breeders and it's not a big deal. You asked about specifics things that happened as you viewed them but never said what breeder you were talking about. So how did two different breeders show up, who had never posted before, specifically for your threads?


I was wondering the same thing!


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

because i asked about certain concerns i had on my mind

it was not "is this breeder or good or bad" 

it was concerns i had about things before sealing any deal but people tookas though i was trying to ruin reputations or something

i will never ask about a concern on this forum again tho lol wow i learned my lesson

it was not just any single breeder that started the topics a few breeders told me personally in regards to the they dont let people touch their dogs,

i went to look at a breeder in person and the breeder would not let me touch the dam either just said its not a good idea so I was unsure but i was allowed to play with the sire so thats kinda the first experience i had no single breeders


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

but how did the breeders know you were asking on here? and what you were asking here? I doubt they took the time to figure out your screen name and google you...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well, apparently someone told them who saw the thread and knew things. Please take this to PMs if you want to discuss it, it's not really anything that needs to go here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

nope...don't care enough to. As I said, I was just curious. feel free to delete any posts you think doesn't need to be here.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

No need to delete.


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

Just as input for this thread (and I mean no disrespect to any breeder or purchaser). I will add my 2 cents and try to remain as neutral as possible. I personally have the product of a breeding of a bitch with just such a "sharp" temperament to a rock solid male. The bitch, an import, was purchased by a breeder (lets call her breeder "A") and, after a great deal of observation and thought, the bitch was not included in her breeding program due to nerve issues. The dog was sold to friend of mine (call him breeder "B") along with a male of her (breeder A's) breeding, with the understanding that breeding the two dogs was not an option, but for companionship only. Well, an unscrupulous trainer convinced him, breeder "B", to breed the two dogs and I, not knowing any better, purchased one. I took great care in the selection of this puppy and she was going to be the end-all, be-all in my mind (I had something to prove as a young trainer). I went as far as to take the puppy, at 6 months of age, back to the original importer (breeder "A") to show her the product of the breeding that she was dead set against. I was disappointed in her review of the dog and what she said the dog would lack what was needed to do what I wanted to do over the long haul. My intentions of breeding my puppy were somewhat shot down and I left with the mindset that the breeder was just envious of how good the dog was, that it was a case of "sour grapes" and that if there were any short comings, I was a skilled enough trainer to make up for the behavioral flaws....
Unfortunately, she (breeder "A) was dead-on with everything the dog turned out to be. Although we scored high in trial many times in obedience competition, the dog really lacked the nerve to do well overall. Sure, later her protection work was sharp, she was quick to fire up... but the stability was not there and I am always a bit on edge when new people come to the home. I began to see what the original owner (breeder "A") was saying about the bitches impact on my puppy. I was and am still not happy with this but I learned a great deal...my puppy grew up and was never bred and she is 9 now.
I later had the unpleasant experience of working with the mother of my puppy at my kennel. My first attempt at remaining neutral around her resulted in a leg bite (defensive and partially due to her hectic state). I did not provoke this at all. A normal, sound dog would not do this. The nerves of this bitch, her mannerisms and behavioral traits were right in line with the pup that I purchased and the majority of the first litter that I followed to adulthood. The second litter was even worse, one puppy being kept back by the breeder B is so spooky that even he makes comment on it. At least this dog avoids more than she engages. There were no further breedings, thank goodness. Only 2 of the pups showed any of the fathers qualities (a very, very strong, stable, confident dog with excellent nerves) but they too had a bit too much edge.

A dog that is simply standing still and is approached under normal circumstances without threat should not take it upon itself to attack/bite, not if the dog is of sound mind. None of the dogs I currently raise have done this, whether adult or child approaching, as their confidence is high and they feel in control (although they are not overly social either, the word "cold" comes to mind). If the bitch of the litter you are looking at accepts contact from a child but not an adult, they must view an adult as a potential threat which would indicate fear, and perhaps conditioning on the part of the previous handler or previous experience on the part of the dog. Somehow this response has been reinforced. I deal with this everyday when working with the pet public. Again, I mean no disrespect to the breeder of this litter, however, I would be very careful where these pups go, the early experience they receive and be prepared for some returns for aggression issues. Just a sincere heads up, not knocking anyone here, I personally would like to see you be successful in your endeavors. There is nothing I would like more than to have a resource for good dogs in future should I decide to partake in breeding German Shepherd Dogs primarily for service. Good dogs are good dogs regardless of where they come from... as are bad ones. I wish you nothing but the best of luck!

With regards to the post discussing whether a police dog should be expected to bite someone who pets them.... very, very very wrong. Of course, I would not recommend advancing on any dog and petting it, however, these (service) dogs are supposed to be stable, sound animals and their evaluations, training and (hopefully) yearly testing should test this. In fact, just yesterday I attended an evaluation along with two of my potential candidates for bomb detection where I was fortunate to have access to a training session with an experienced police dog trainer (who certifies dogs and is well respected in North America) and a 6-year old dog that had 4 years on the street (an excellent dog from a competing kennel, **** I hate when the other guys have good dogs!!!). During the training session, I was able to watch the narc search, building search and protection work up close and personal. One of the protection exercises was to engage a decoy, detain, reattack and release the decoy. From here the dog was put into a controlled down where the decoy was frisked, resisted and pushed the handler to the ground prompting the dog to reattack. Then, while still in full bitesuit, the decoy passively approached from the side, kneeled down and was to stroke the dog (who was in a controlled down) gently without incident. A dog of bad nerves would never accept this without force or having their response corrected. This dog had a clear understanding of what was required, had a clear head and was not on edge (a little concerned but still visibly relaxed in his posture). This is not an isolated incident, this is what I have witnessed with multiple dogs over the course of a 16-week police service dog training session that I was fortunate enough to be invited to (I am just a civilian, not an officer so this is rare). This is the nature of a good PSD, they should not be alligators on a leash, they are a search tool first and a use of force only when necessary. Of the dogs I have placed in service I know of one (in a small PD in Ontario) that was let off lead to find a woman (with a history of mental illness) who had disappeared into the cold March night in her pajamas. My dog located her between two buildings, a position where the officer had difficulty accessing her. Had the dog lacked the nerve, self control and the ability to deal with the situation, he could have mauled her with the officer not able to control the situation from afar. Instead, he approached her and tried to get her to move, whining and licking her. She was suffering from hypothermia by this point so I assume there was little response. 
I can (privately) provide a web link for anyone who wishes to validate this event. I can also (reluctantly, LOL) provide the name of the breeder of the competing kennel who produced the 6 year old service dog mentioned above.
This is the role of a service dog... it isn't all about physically detaining bad guys (as cool as that is to watch, even more interesting when you play the role of the bad guy), there are other more important functions (tracking, searching). Besides, how can you detain a bad guy if you cannot find him in the first place? Who would you want to find your family member if they were lost?
Stability makes sense whether the dogs are in service or, where the majority end up, in pet homes. In my opinion, this is a very important consideration when breeding.

Sorry for the long post folks


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know you feel the need to remain anonymous for privacy. But it sure would be nice to know who you are! Not the breeder A or B but your credentials should be known as you have experiences to share....I think I know who you are but shouldn't have to guess if that makes sense!


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

Sorry about being so mysterious. I am not a private person to be honest, I just did not think to indicate who I am. Everything that you may want to know about me should be here:

https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/

If you would like to know more, please feel free to PM. I will gladly answer any (well, almost any) questions that you may have. 

Nothing to hide, everything to share, much to learn.

Mike


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

PSDOntario,

Thank you for sharing your experience, however the level of sharpness a dog displays alone is not an indication of it's strength of nerve or it's ability to perform in other functions. Sharpness is a dogs ability to react or recognize a threat and has nothing to do with nerves. The level of stimulation it take a dog to react is due to the animals threshold. Dogs with low threshold whether it's prey or defence will react quickly to stimulation, high threshold dogs need more stimulation to react. A dog that bites in fear usually has other issues and there's no way around that. However, your making a bold statement based on your experience with one sharp dog.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

AdamR said:


> PSDOntario,
> 
> Thank you for sharing your experience, however the level of sharpness a dog displays alone is not an indication of it's strength of nerve or it's ability to perform in other functions. Sharpness is a dogs ability to react or recognize a threat and has nothing to do with nerves. The level of stimulation it take a dog to react is due to the animals threshold. Dogs with low threshold whether it's prey or defence will react quickly to stimulation, high threshold dogs need more stimulation to react. A dog that bites in fear usually has other issues and there's no way around that. However, your making a bold statement based on your experience with one sharp dog.


So how would describe the dog you're breeding? A random stranger, posing no threat, comes up to pet your bitch and she bites. I wouldn't consider this much stimulation for a dog with strong nerves. Why is it accepted that this dog will bite? 

Would you describe this as fear biting? If not fear, what kind of reaction would you consider this as?



psdontario said:


> A dog that is simply standing still and is approached under normal circumstances without threat should not take it upon itself to attack/bite, not if the dog is of sound mind.


I don't want to reply to your entire post, but this addressed my earlier question. Just wanted to thank you for your response and say I hope you stick around this forum. You definitely seem like you have a wealth of information to share.

Very nice post - not just this part, but the entire post. Good stuff!


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

Thank you for setting me straight, I now have a clear picture and a much better understanding of where you are coming from.
Good luck on your first litter!


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

Well it was very clear for me anyway with Carmpack's post on the this thread and your 1st post on the forum were you guys are comming from. 

Don't worry I won't cut into your business with my fear biters.LOL. Nice try though.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

AdamR said:


> Well it was very clear for me anyway with Carmpack's post on the this thread and your 1st post on the forum were you guys are comming from.
> 
> Don't worry I won't cut into your business with my fear biters.LOL. Nice try though.


You still haven't answered my question... 

No ones coming for you by the way. This is a place to discuss the breed we all love. That's why we're all here. 

As a breeder, I hope you're going to be open to plenty of questions from potential puppy owners. Not everyone has the knowledge that you say you have. You know your dogs the best... they're your dogs. We're all just trying to learn and discuss here and that's why we're asking. 

When I speak to a breeder about a potential puppy, I have a million and one questions for them and their dogs. Once those question are answered, I have even more questions to ask. I just hope, as a breeder, you're prepared for that.


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

Lucy,

Let me ask you, if a stranger on the street walked up and started touching you, would you be ok with that? Why does a dog need or have to be that social? I have never had anyone come up and try to pet her or even ask, she doesn't have that come touch me kind of look about her.

My breeding goals are on my website, if your interested check it out.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What is your website AdamR?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

AdamR said:


> Lucy,
> 
> Let me ask you, if a stranger on the street walked up and started touching you, would you be ok with that? Why does a dog need or have to be that social? I have never had anyone come up and try to pet her or even ask, she doesn't have that come touch me kind of look about her.
> 
> My breeding goals are on my website, if your interested check it out.


If a stranger came up to me on the street and tapped me on the shoulder, I wouldn't turn around and immediately punch them in the face either.

There is a HUGE difference between not being social (aloof) and biting a stranger. The dog should be aloof (it's the standard), but should not react without being provoked to do so. Just my opinion.

I didn't see your website though - did you post it? If you don't want to post it in this thread, can you PM me? I'd definitely like to check it out.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I have a sharp female and as much as I love her....she is a liability to say the least. A dog should be able to be gently touched by a stranger without a bite ensuing period. What if someone accidently bumped into you or your dog, ran by and grazed them while on a walk, or somehow the dog got loose? I like a spunky dog for sure, but their is a difference between a dog being a little sharp and a dog being overly reactive. You need the drive and confidence, but not the bite and ask questions later mentality


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

we need sound stable animals . full stop . 

here is a prime example of what might happen. I used to live in the heat of downtown Toronto. The university campus (U of T ) and surrounding area with the crazy busy Kensington Market which has seen transformations over the years from the "jewish market" to the Italian/Portuguese , and currently Asian . There are fruit and vegetable stalls well into the sidewalk , clothing racks , barrels with "stuff". There are no courteous rules of walking down the sidewalk as there would be in the more w a s p areas. Here there is excitement and chaos like excited neutrons. So I was doing some socializing with two of my dogs being prepared for police service. I observe them in these conditions -- . I had one dog , Simon , and a friend had another . There were people running every which way , running straight into , squeezing past, bumping them with loaded shopping bags . At an intersection we stopped for a red light. Soon that corner was very crowded. We had the dogs in heel position , patiently waiting in a sit . Well if a young girl 4 years, 5 tops , didn't grab Simons neck and give him a mighty hug dropping her body weight on him. All he did was look around with a huh? The mom got the girl , the dog stood up and that was that. 
So in case you think he is a softee , I don't think so . He has been evaluated for police and approved twice . The last time he almost broke the stallion bungee cord he was tied out on for the aggression work. He can stop you cold with his eagle eye. 
Never once handler aggresive . Demoed many times -- always , a good clean on and off , nothing lingering -- although watchful. His brother Chunko went far in Sch H sport , each time getting special comments from the decoys and judges , and decoys awards, for his hardness and seriousness in protection --- yet the families 10 year son can safely walk this dog back to the car after coming off the field in a sch h trial. I am providing a pedigree link of Simon and his brother Chunko Carmspack Simon - German shepherd dog 
Carmspack Chunko - German shepherd dog 

sane . level headed dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi Adam -- didn't know you were the other breeder.

Maybe to clarify things you could tell why you have this particular pup with you still at this age -- was he your pick, was he held back with some expectation which did not actualize, was he returned . Very important for a dog this age is what you have been doing with the dog to socialize it .

Hey if you want to send the dog to Saucy --- be my guest , hope it works out .
No bad feelings held against you whatsoever . Everyone has to learn somewhere . It's not just the dogs you have to learn about .


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

Carmspack,

You seem to be the only one asking about the pup, is this to satisfy your own curiosity? The pup is doing great and I'm well aware of what he requires. Thanks for the advise.


Adam


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Adam you will soon see that I have an enormous curiousity and interest in things . That is part of my make up. 
I am glad the pup is doing well. 
I initially asked saucy about what else he was looking at , thinking that it may have been a little more local , and I am always looking for those great dogs brought into North America on someone elses dime , that may be of use in my breeding in the future. 
I said to him and the forum that the questions should now be asked along the lines of what you were doing with this pup NOW seeing that he is 6 months of age. Any person , not just the dog and people in this situation, should ask . At 6 months of age you would want to see some wide world experience, introducing to a variety of people, places, noises, travel in vehicle, crate training, leash training, bonding by play , you want dogs for service , then you start tracking and searching and tugging and oh my yes you will have to do wide socialization. Lots of experience under the belt.
I am puzzled by the tone of "don't worry I won't cut into your business with my fear biters LOL, Nice try though."
Now that was just weird . I wished you well . There is a saying , dogs resemble their owners . Business . LOL right back at you. What business??? Business means income -- this is passion as listed on my tax returns -- passion. One to two litters a year -- I don't think so . Seems every penny made gets reinvested , books, education, breeding stock . (more on some outstanding dogs I imported this winter from 100% DDR breeding ---) .
So you do have fear biters? hmm 
Nice try you say. No try. Listen you can sell one or two or three hundred dogs to saucy and good luck to all and every.
I am glad things happened the way they did because I was handed a lemon and I got myself a delicious pitcher of yummy lemonade - healthy and rehydrating , just what the Dr. ordered. 
I am so glad that I discovered this forum. I LOVE it. 
brought psd Mike on to --- 
so thank you for that saucy and Adam (and seriously good luck to you )


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

just wanted to clarify no i am not getting the pup you guys are probably right it is not a good match for me but i still think it is an amazzing breeding and one day will probably be great police dog. I will continue searching for the right dog. 

good luck to everyone and goodbye


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

Carmpack,

I know how to raise a working dog. I have no clue who you are and to be honest with you I have no interest in what you do or the dogs that you breed. I didn't ask for you advise, but you feel the need to offer it anyway. I already have a knowledgeable people to work with and seek advise from when I need it. 

I will make this my last responce to you. No hard feeling, but you don't seem like the type of person I would associate with. First impressions are everything.

Adam


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

saucy I really hope you will stay There's a wealth of info on this forum, and I'm SURE you can hook up with a breeder who will have a dog to fulfill your needs

Adam I hope you stick around to, I'm sure we all can learn from you)


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## AdamR (Feb 2, 2011)

Jakoda,

Thanks for the welcome. Looks like there's lot's of great information here and some good people too.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

saucy2011 said:


> just wanted to clarify no i am not getting the pup you guys are probably right it is not a good match for me but i still think it is an amazzing breeding and one day will probably be great police dog. I will continue searching for the right dog.
> 
> good luck to everyone and goodbye


Who is saucy2011? Wasn't it just plain "saucy"?


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## westallkennel (Feb 3, 2011)

I agree that if you do not have a lot of experience handling dogs that you should not go with a working blood line of this type Most shepherds that are used for protection or police work are breed for thier prey drive. If you want just a family pet I would look else where.


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

it is me the ssame person i just messed up my account by mistake and had to make a new one other one can be deleted.

not all working dogs are like that a great breeder will have dogs that fit every type of person. Yes the puppy i wanted was probably a bad idea for me. but that does not mean working shepherds as a whole are to be avoided. There are working shepherds i have met that friends have that are much more easy to handle and biddable then many american shepherds i have seen. IT DEPENDS ON THE BREEDER and what they have. I would def look into german show lines also. I am not interested in ever getting another american shpeherd.rai

LIke i said before i have a great large yard that is fenced in 

a great trainer 

am fit and active 

have a lot of extra time and good paying job


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and I agree with this^^..not all working lines even the ones being bred for police/sport are dogs that one cannot 'live' with. 

Saucy, maybe if you go to the Looking for a Breeder section, post exactly what your looking for, and the area you are in, someone can chime in with breeder referrals for you to check out.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Read through this thread with interest. Everyone definitely has their own opinions on what is acceptable temperament and what isn't!

GSDs are not really an easy breed. They require a lot of early socialization and training. And proper temperament for them includes being territorial, suspicious of things out of the ordinary (not fearful but suspicious), protective instincts, prey drive and tendency towards dog aggression. These things can be found in differing levels in all lines of GSD and they are part of what makes a GSD a GSD. If these traits concern you or are things you can't live with, this is not the breed for you. There are plenty of active dogs out there who don't have the protective nature that GSDs are supposed to have. 

A GSD can have a proper temperament and still tend towards being intolerant of strangers handling them. That doesn't necessarily make the dog a great liability. IMO such a dog, trained and with a responsible owner is probably less of a liability than an untrained dogs with an ignorant owner who could never believe their dog would ever bite. In fact, many tragic dog attacks (on people and on other dogs) happen because owners don't believe their dogs would ever hurt any one. You don't hear too much about serious dog attacks happening with protection trained dogs - it's overwhelmingly untrained, poorly managed pet dogs.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

westallkennel said:


> Most shepherds that are used for protection or police work are breed for thier prey drive. If you want just a family pet I would look else where.


Yes, workingline dogs can be very drivey, but most litters have a variation in level of drive. They can all make great family pets if you have the time to meet their needs. For the less active homes, you would be looking for a lower drive dog. Not sure what you are talking about prey drive; it makes for easy training as most of them are ball crazy.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Elaine said:


> Not sure what you are talking about prey drive; it makes for easy training as most of them are ball crazy.


Yep... i'll definitely agree with that one. Lucy has a very high prey drive... anything that runs, she'll chase. If I can throw it, she'll chase it. If you're small, fuzzy, and eat nuts, I suggest you do not come in Lucy's yard. I think you get my point.

I use this to my advantage when training. I just bring out some kind of ball when training and she'll do pretty much anything I ask her to do. She works harder for me to throw that ball then she would for a piece of chicken.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yep... i'll definitely agree with that one. Lucy has a very high prey drive... anything that runs, she'll chase. If I can throw it, she'll chase it. If you're small, fuzzy, and eat nuts, I suggest you do not come in Lucy's yard. I think you get my point.
> 
> I use this to my advantage when training. I just bring out some kind of ball when training and she'll do pretty much anything I ask her to do. She works harder for me to throw that ball then she would for a piece of chicken.


 It can be a problem for people who don't believe their dog would ever hurt a small animal. Or a large one. On another forum I'm on someone who has tolerated her neighbor's large prey driven dog on her property because "he's never been a problem" has now decided this dog's breed is dangerous because the dog attacked her horse. The dog's owners are "shocked" and "can't believe he would do something like that". On this forum, there have been quite a few discussions when people post their GSD killed small pets.

That said, there is no line of GSD that you could suggest who won't have prey drive. My worst dogs with my small animals were the American showlines. My male took quite a bit of work to be ok with my cat and my female has always been a bit too interested in my ferrets. My female Amline is actually probably one of the most prey driven dogs I have owned. All three of the GSDs would catch rabbits, birds or squirrels in the yard.

The same can be said for any of the more difficult traits GSDs may have. My German line girl is very same sex aggressive with dogs in her house, in that even at 13 she can't be out with them. Outside of the house, she is indifferent towards most dogs and was able to go to daycare with me daily for a long time. She is extremely tolerant of well meaning but dumb strangers and of children. My American line male tended towards being intolerant of some male dogs (and his sire had the same tendency), in or out of the house. He was quite iffy with strangers as he matured and would not tolerate people leaning over him, trying to hug him or even staring at him. The American line girl is quite friendly with people but doesn't like some strange dogs. IME suggesting that "showlines are easier" is a bit misleading. It is easier if people who aren't suited for owning a large, strong dogs with guarding instincts, prey drive and a tendency towards dog aggression choose a different breed.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> *I have a couple of dogs that would tolerate a stranger petting them but would not be thrilled. If the stranger either thru ignorance or design started challenging the dog by his or her body language, gestures, postures it could get dicey.*





> *My point in posting it was that people some times do stupid things around dogs and while we train and am vigilant it is just easier to tell people to not pet our dogs.* I would describe my suspicious bitch pretty much like the breeder did and she has never bitten anyone except on a training field.
> 
> Leaning over a dog and grabbing it by the neck like that is a challenge to the dog. How the dog reacts is going to depend on it's temperament and it's training.


I think Betty has some good comments here.. That might be worthy of repeating! 

Nor did I see anything in the video posted of the bitch that screamed, weak nerves..


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I haven't read through all of this post, but this is the second time that, right after saucy has posted about her "dealings" with a breeder, that the breeder (new to the forum) has come on here to place input into the thread.

I feel like there is more to the story here that we aren't getting on both instances. This sort of thing rarely happens when the breeder isn't named, and how did it happen twice with the same poster in a matter of days??


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I see my issue has already been raised and not answered, although if anyone feels like PMing me why the above is the case I'm definintely curious.

I do not necessarily think it was to either breeder's benefit to come on these threads and "defend" themselves considering they had been unnamed to that point and saucy came off as a novice who didn't really "get" what they were talking about.

I am, however, glad that the thread has remained reatively civil...as confusing as it is that it came about.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I had asked Adam in one of these threads - he did answer that a friend who is on this board and another board that he posts on (PDB?) gave him heads up about Saucy posting here and implying things by his posts. Neither Carmspack nor Adam may have checked to see if they had been identified, and assumed that they had been, perhaps in another thread? Though from the links and pictures that Saucy posted, one can go back to the source.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I had asked Adam in one of these threads - he did answer that a friend who is on this board and another board that he posts on (PDB?) gave him heads up about Saucy posting here and implying things by his posts. Neither Carmspack nor Adam may have checked to see if they had been identified, and assumed that they had been, perhaps in another thread? Though from the links and pictures that Saucy posted, one can go back to the source.


Pissed that post I guess. I also must have missed any photos or links that Saucy was posting. I hadn't seen any in any of the threads I saw.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think the video of the female being worked (where he asked if she has weak nerves - looked fine to me), the U-tube channel has the same user name as a poster on PDB.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I think the video of the female being worked (where he asked if she has weak nerves - looked fine to me), the U-tube channel has the same user name as a poster on PDB.


Ah, yes...sometimes my "blondness" amazes me. Dumdadum! :rofl:

No offense to blonde folks.


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

Some really educational material in this thread--Psdontario's long post (#96) was such help. Thank you for taking the trouble to write it! Carmspack's post # 108 was really appreciated, too! The type of solid, sane temperament they describe is, for my taste, the ideal, and it is something about which I want to learn a lot more.


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