# Heel and down in motion



## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

So here we are at 8 months 

Down in motion (8months) - YouTube

Anna's heel at 8months - YouTube


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Looks like you're doing a lot of good work with her Liz and she's enjoying it. I'd avoid the ball in your right hand though. I know a point can be made that it shouldn't matter. You only mark or reward when she's correct, etc.. but when you go out to do the full routine and that reward isn't coming,,,,,,

She could start wrapping and crowding looking for it over there. Some dogs, maybe that wouldn't happen but it would be easier to just avoid it and keep the ball always on your left.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Nice! I actually love down in motion. It's my favorite part of class and one we excel at.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Looks like you're doing a lot of good work with her Liz and she's enjoying it. I'd avoid the ball in your right hand though. I know a point can be made that it shouldn't matter. You only mark or reward when she's correct, etc.. but when you go out to do the full routine and that reward isn't coming,,,,,,
> 
> She could start wrapping and crowding looking for it over there. Some dogs, maybe that wouldn't happen but it would be easier to just avoid it and keep the ball always on your left.


Sure! I totally see your point, I'm really only able to keep her looking the way I want for a few steps right now until she drops her head to check her footing or she forges, so I'm trying to keep the reward super handy for now, sometimes I do throw it over her shoulder though, not always forward, it just seems to build her drive and produce a bouncier/happier looking heel if she gets that long chase to the ball. I think once I can get her going a bit longer (10 steps?) I can have more time to get her ball out, haha I'm still not as fast as I should either 


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Cara Fusinato said:


> Nice! I actually love down in motion. It's my favorite part of class and one we excel at.


Thank you!! It's actually fun! For whatever reason her down in motion is easier then her sit, more on point/correct each time I ask. I've even started to practice it as i recall her over short distances. BUT her sit, sometimes she hovers or crouches... She isn't actually sitting -__- she fakes it 


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Can you hold it on your left shoulder with your right hand? Or put it under your arm? Try going back to one step, sit, and drop it to her? Everything on a line in the correct position, then throw it a couple of times. Does that make sense?


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Can you hold it on your left shoulder with your right hand? Or put it under your arm? Try going back to one step, sit, and drop it to her? Everything on a line in the correct position, then throw it a couple of times. Does that make sense?


Wellllll I could have :/ if I hadn't already trained her not to look at it, when she moved in the the fuss position she sorta pops up and mouths my hand- she has always done this, with or with out a toy or treat BUT he does not look at the toy or my hand I worked really hard on her when she was a bit younger using the Michael Ellis method and trained her to not look at my hand or the toy... Then I saw videos of people using the toy under there arm (got awesome head position it seemed) so I tried it- no luck! I did it probably 5 sessions, even dropping the ball down, she always looked very surprised as it would hit her in the head -__- hahah 

Do you think that she may not heel as well if she sees the ball isn't in my hand? 


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah. Its very tough to maintain that attention to your face, looking at you no matter where the ball is. If you do want to use the toy as a target under your arm, you have to go back and let her focus on the toy. A few misses, hold it up high above her head and then drop it to her. She has to learn that before its under your arm or on your shoulder.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I'd hold the ball cupped in your left hand then reward by holding the ball right above her head and letting her jump straight up to bite. Then tug. Then if you want you can fetch out of that. If you're going to throw I'd throw to the side. Throwing forward has no benefit especially when the main problem with attention heeling is the forging. I also sometimes hold in my right hand and reward behind me. Keeps the dog from forging if the reward is never going forward. 

Imo the more the dog looks towards your left side the better. Even if you teach to look you in the eyes, during a routine you are looking straight forward and some dogs can wrap around a little to try to look you in the eyes. Imo the left arm pit is the perfect spot for the dog to look.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

There are 2 things I would try on the heel. First when you call her to heel since she is only 8 months i would step back with my left leg and get her to follow it around and forward to the correct position sorts of open your left side of your body and draw her in to correct position. I would also reward by having the toy on the left other she will do the forging that she is doing now that you say she is doing. Also for the down I would call her to you or reward by going back and standing by her side. Not just always throw the ball and have her run for it. Throwing all the time unless you have freed her from the command can lead to problems later.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

simba405 said:


> I'd hold the ball cupped in your left hand then reward by holding the ball right above her head and letting her jump straight up to bite. Then tug. Then if you want you can fetch out of that. If you're going to throw I'd throw to the side. Throwing forward has no benefit especially when the main problem with attention heeling is the forging. I also sometimes hold in my right hand and reward behind me. Keeps the dog from forging if the reward is never going forward.
> 
> Imo the more the dog looks towards your left side the better. Even if you teach to look you in the eyes, during a routine you are looking straight forward and some dogs can wrap around a little to try to look you in the eyes. Imo the left arm pit is the perfect spot for the dog to look.











Normally looks a bit like this

















I have not ever tried rewarding from behind though that's a really good idea, ill try that, she was really terrible at forging when she was a little younger that was my biggest problem, not to much now, she will just check her footing and I lightly correct when she does so, I've been trying really hard to reward her before she looks down-every time. she also isn't a big tugger with the ball, just isn't crazy about tugging it (she's fantastic in bite work though I have a few videos posted in this same section of her work from Saturday if you want to see) 


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

szariksdad said:


> There are 2 things I would try on the heel. First when you call her to heel since she is only 8 months i would step back with my left leg and get her to follow it around and forward to the correct position sorts of open your left side of your body and draw her in to correct position. I would also reward by having the toy on the left other she will do the forging that she is doing now that you say she is doing. Also for the down I would call her to you or reward by going back and standing by her side. Not just always throw the ball and have her run for it. Throwing all the time unless you have freed her from the command can lead to problems later.


got ya, I normally say "ok" to free her, I'm not sure if you can hear me in the video same in her heel- that second where she leaps forward because she knows the ball is coming- I released her then threw the ball. now honestly if she forges or crowds me (allot of the time she will walk SO CLOSE that she is literally touching me and her front paws are getting stepped on as I walk) I sorta push her out of my way, what would you do? I've been told not to pull her over with the leash, and I've had some people say to knee her??


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Like if you look at that pic in the middle you can see how close she is, is this desirable? I'm not even totally sure if its correct, can a judge tell that she is against me? Would that make me lose points? 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Left turns. Lots of left turns. Get her engaging her back end. My boy also tends to forge a bit. I did lots of left turns, forced him back a bit, then the second he was straight, reward. 

Do you ever just work on the position. No actual forward movement? Have her heel, then you turn 90 degrees and she has to rotate her back end to stay in position. I found this really helped my boy understand that heeling is not moving forward, heeling is the position( his shoulder at my knee) no matter what I may be doing, moving forward, backward, running, walking slow....

She looks really good. You are doing nice work with her. 


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

If you guys are stepping on each others feet it's because she is always anticipating the reward coming from your right hand so of course she wants to get as close as possible. Throw the ball out to her left and that will solve the stepping on each other problem. 

I had the same problem with my boy standing on my foot. But I'd rather a dog be leaning on me rather than a dog that isn't making contact. Imo it's just easier to fix.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Left turns. Lots of left turns. Get her engaging her back end. My boy also tends to forge a bit. I did lots of left turns, forced him back a bit, then the second he was straight, reward.
> 
> Do you ever just work on the position. No actual forward movement? Have her heel, then you turn 90 degrees and she has to rotate her back end to stay in position. I found this really helped my boy understand that heeling is not moving forward, heeling is the position( his shoulder at my knee) no matter what I may be doing, moving forward, backward, running, walking slow....
> 
> ...


Yes! I'm currently doing that now, I'm finding left turns to be a very slow process, lol very slow >_< I've been working her left turns with basically no forward movement, I will start with her in fuss position and ask for a sir (which basically means stay) and I keep my left foot at her right paw and kinda step to the front of her and ask for fuss, so she is slowly learning to bring her rear in

This stuff is NOT easy!!

Thank you btw for saying she looks good 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

When starting the left turns, over exaggerate your shoulder movement. Deliberately turn the front if your body into her. This may help push her back a bit since it changes the picture. Reward for any independent movement of the hind end in the beginning. 

I know she likes to chase the ball, but maybe try using a tug for a bit. If she likes to tug in bitework, maybe that will transfer to smaller tug. And you can then keep her closer to you instead of all the down time of the long chase if the ball. Will help you have quicker more productive time while training, then use the ball as the final "release!"

I am pretty new to SchH as well, so I know how hard it is!!! Sport obedience is a whole different world!!!! Keep at it! You have a nice dog!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> When starting the left turns, over exaggerate your shoulder movement. Deliberately turn the front if your body into her. This may help push her back a bit since it changes the picture. Reward for any independent movement of the hind end in the beginning.
> 
> I know she likes to chase the ball, but maybe try using a tug for a bit. If she likes to tug in bitework, maybe that will transfer to smaller tug. And you can then keep her closer to you instead of all the down time of the long chase if the ball. Will help you have quicker more productive time while training, then use the ball as the final "release!"
> 
> ...


Thank you!! Ill let you know how it goes haha 


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I think the little bit of heeling you have looks really nice..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would not reward the down with the dog moving forward, I'd have gone back to the dog and rewarded the position(so breaking doesn't become a habit)
With the heeling, I'd also reward in the heel position, tossing the ball takes alot of time and I'd rather do a bit of tug/out and go right back into the heeling while the dog is in drive and not in fetch mode. We usually have the ball tucked in the left armpit(dog can't see it, but knows it is there) and drop it when the dog is doing right, then grab the string and tug, out the dog , back to fuss.
I want the dog to stay in the moment of what we are working on. 
Your pup has a ton of enthusiasm and you are coming along really well!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

G-burg said:


> I think the little bit of heeling you have looks really nice..


Thank you, we've come a long long way!! Anna has taught me allot


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I would not reward the down with the dog moving forward, I'd have gone back to the dog and rewarded the position(so breaking doesn't become a habit)
> With the heeling, I'd also reward in the heel position, tossing the ball takes alot of time and I'd rather do a bit of tug/out and go right back into the heeling while the dog is in drive and not in fetch mode. We usually have the ball tucked in the left armpit(dog can't see it, but knows it is there) and drop it when the dog is doing right, then grab the string and tug, out the dog , back to fuss.
> I want the dog to stay in the moment of what we are working on.
> Your pup has a ton of enthusiasm and you are coming along really well!


Yes! That seems to be the general opinion here so our next session ill do it all  thank you for your suggestions 


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Liz, I'd really consider going back to the beginning with her right now, before the crowding and forging is her default. Its tough to fix that except in training. I think its easier to fall back into what would be her foundation, crowding, when you trial and she figures out there's no ball.

You may want to think about teaching her to swing her rear separate of the heeling, and concentrate on her learning to get the reward without coming forward out of position. No steps at all for a while, and then when that's solid, one step at a time with a sit.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think she looks good! I think the forging problem comes with clarity of the correct position and anticipation of the reward going forward. If she liked to chase it, I would mark the behavior and release her throwing it behind you. I would also work correct position without moving for a bit to teach her to move her rear legs into place. Good work!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Oh I'm definitely not starting over she has every thing down pretty much, I need to build on her distance and work on left turns nbd, and I do her left turns stationary, I also place her on a target and have her move her real around it with our moving her front paws, I know at some point it will all come together 


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think there is good in the videos but no need to start over, just fine tune somethings. First for the heel the first time she is wrong and then you correct but she does not clean up correctly before you leave basic position, so maybe lure more using the way I recommend earlier of opening your left side of the body to get her in correct position. On the reward for **** I could not hear real well but it seems like you are working on throwing the reward before the release word. Also most forging become about from the dog anticipating the reward in this case from the right. So try and mix up by rewarding more from the left. 
Good luck with training.


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