# German Shepherd or Malinois?



## timmster

I was going to put this on the working dog thread, but I figured there would be more traffic here, and i wasn't sure which working dog thread it should go in. So mods, if you guys want to move this, go right ahead.

Anyways, my question is, why do nowadays Belgian Malinois' seem more popular for working/police/military dogs? A while back, I remember that the only police/military dogs I saw were strictly German Shepherds (or maybe I wasn't knowlegable enough back then to know the difference). But recently, I've been seeing an influx of Malinois' as detection, police dogs, etc...

Is it simply because Malinois' have more drive, and in my opinon, a little more crazy, that makes them all the more desirable to the military and police? It seems the German Shepherd has pretty much taken a back seat to the Belgian Malinois!


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## AbbyK9

Don't get me wrong, there are still lots of lines of German Shepherds that produce great dogs for police/military use and that have those drives and that correct temperament and not a lot of health issues, but they seem to be harder and harder to find. There are still more GSDs working police/military than there are Mals. 

But, there definitely is a move toward more Mals. If I had to guess, I'd say these are some factors - smaller, faster, more agile. Less health issues. More drive. Less shedding.


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## missmychance

Last summer here on Fort Bragg, I was driving early one morning and saw some handlers out walking about a dozen dogs and they all looked like Malinios from what I could see driving by.


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## rvadog

You should pose this question to Show Line breeders.


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## BlackPuppy

Malinois obey first, think later. German Shepherds tend to overthink.


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## Denali Girl

Ivan Babanov - Ivan Balabanov’s Ot Vitosha Kennels, Carrie Silva Of Ot Vitosha Kennels, Ot Vitosha Kennels Championship Titles, Ot Vitosha Malinois

Here is a good link and you can write Ivan and he will tell you the answer you are looking for.


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## FG167

BlackPuppy said:


> Malinois obey first, think later. German Shepherds tend to overthink.


Interesting differentiation - I have been wondering the differences for a working line GSD and a Dutchie - which I think has a different temperament than a Mal.


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## crackem

I think people "think" too much and talk too much. I have never seen a good mal do something a good Shepherd couldn't do or vice versa. There are plenty of good and plenty of crapper dogs. Find a dog you like and get it. There isn't a whole lot more to it.


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## Mrs.K

crackem said:


> I think people "think" too much and talk too much. I have never seen a good mal do something a good Shepherd couldn't do or vice versa. There are plenty of good and plenty of crapper dogs. Find a dog you like and get it. There isn't a whole lot more to it.


I absolutely agree!


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## JakodaCD OA

a friend of mine who has 3 mals and has had gsd's made a good observation about them (hers anyhow)

A mal would go jump off a cliff while a german shepherd will think about it first

I like mals, and if I didn't have 3 dogs, I may have one.

I think alot of law enforcement whatever, that do go for the mals are going for a smaller compact , not as many health issues, dog that will think later vs a gsd who will think first.

Personally, I like the 'think first" type, but I do like mallys


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## CassandGunnar

When I saw this post last evening, I emailed a friend of mine who is the lead trainer for a police K9 center (he's fairly well known in training circles but I told him I would not use his name) He is also responsible for selecting the dogs for about 100 different handlers.
It's mostly preference of the agency and handler. He also mentioned the "act first vs the think and act" dynamic. He also said he'd rather have the GSD and that's what he primarily uses, but if an agency wants a mal, he has no problem gettting them or training them. 
Because of their higher drive, they can be easier to train in some instances.
I've also been told that in some cases, it has to do with availibility. Some times, in the event a replacement dog is needed in a hurry, the agency goes with whoever has a dog available right now. (I don't know about that, but that's what I was told)

Take this with a grain of salt, but some agencies in MN want shepherds because of size, intimidation factor and longer coat to stay warm in the winter. I have a suspicion that the last bit was from administrators who don't really know much about dogs, but that's my opinion.


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## CassandGunnar

This video makes a good case for either breed. I'm surprised I haven't seen it posted here before. I love it.


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## hunterisgreat

I know a mal is better suited for searching a car on the side of the road simply b/c of size.. also do a lot better than a gsd in say.. south florida heat


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## GSDElsa

Would anyone consider there is anything other that a working Mal breeder? I don't know much about them, but I can't say I've ever come across a Mal breeder who is anything but. Of course not to say there isn't...or that there aren't bad Mal breeders. 

I don't htink that all PD's are as knowledgable as they whould be in selecting dogs...enough bad experiences getting a low drive, poor nerve GSD might make them gravitate more towards Mals because there are probably less "non working" breeders out there (they are not, after all, the second most popular breed).

Just some possible ideas...


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## DFrost

In the end, it's generally what the vendor has available anyway. Mal's just happen to be more available than GSD's. That isn't to say there aren't GSD's available, just not in big numbers. I would disagree with whoever said the mal was better suited for searching on the side of the road. Trained properly there really isn't a difference.

DFrost


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## CassandGunnar

DFrost said:


> In the end, it's generally what the vendor has available anyway. Mal's just happen to be more available than GSD's. That isn't to say there aren't GSD's available, just not in big numbers. I would disagree with whoever said the mal was better suited for searching on the side of the road. Trained properly there really isn't a difference.
> 
> DFrost


 
Agreed. But I'm perfectly willing to admit that I am HUGELY biased toward GSD's. If I had my choice, I'd take the shepherd every time.
I'm retired now, but our latest rescue is a GSD/Mal cross. I have never had a dog that loves to work more. She's a little bit soft, but we're working on that. If I ever decide to get back into it, she would be my first choice for tracking/detection. She lives through her nose and loves to play "find it."


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## AbbyK9

> Would anyone consider there is anything other that a working Mal breeder? I don't know much about them, but I can't say I've ever come across a Mal breeder who is anything but.


There is starting to be a rift between show and working Malinois, although most people who like the breed seem to be leaning more toward working Malinois and there are a lot more working Malinois produced than show Malinois.

I've seen a couple of the "show" type and can honestly say that I was not terribly impressed. Out of the ones I have met, two could not be approached because they were timid/fearful with strangers. One lady at the AKC show in Hampton was going on about how her dog is the "second best bitch in the country" and when my hubby stomped his foot, her champion bitch went and hid behind the handler, tail tucked. So not what a Mal should be. At all.


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## clearcreekranch

crackem said:


> I think people "think" too much and talk too much. I have never seen a good mal do something a good Shepherd couldn't do or vice versa. There are plenty of good and plenty of crapper dogs. Find a dog you like and get it. There isn't a whole lot more to it.


Yea!


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## clearcreekranch

CassandGunnar said:


> This video makes a good case for either breed. I'm surprised I haven't seen it posted here before. I love it.
> 
> YouTube - BAD COMPANY: Police K-9 Edition


Love this video!


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## hunterisgreat

DFrost said:


> In the end, it's generally what the vendor has available anyway. Mal's just happen to be more available than GSD's. That isn't to say there aren't GSD's available, just not in big numbers. I would disagree with whoever said the mal was better suited for searching on the side of the road. Trained properly there really isn't a difference.
> 
> DFrost


I was referring purely to size. A 60lb dog is more able to maneuver a civic than a 80 lb dog regardless of breed


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## DFrost

heigth is more important, when searching vehicles, than weight. I still don't see the advantage of a 60 pound dog over an 80 pound dog on the side of the road, sniffing vehicles. I certainly can see the advantage of the lighter dog when picking them up or putting them over fences etc, but only in what has to be lifted, not performance of any kind.

DFrost


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## psdontario

My biased opinion may not count in this discussion, but again, I will add 2¢ to keep it rolling.
While having dinner with a retired RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) trainer, an organization that was world-renowned for their dogs tracking abilities, I was told the following:
"I brought the Malinois into our program, and I was the one to take them out a short while later. We had dogs that were literally dying on the track".
The Malinois he was referring to would whip themselves into such a frenzy tracking that they could not sustain this pace for the length of track that the GSD's were doing. This might be also related to the other downfall for the breed and that is exertional myositis (best to Google that term plus Malinois for more information) and/or exercise induced collapse. 
I know of multiple agencies that employ these dogs with the understanding that they are a higher bite ratio dog, meaning, more of a liability and they utilize them carefully (they are usually find and bite dogs that are deployed at the officers discretion). Another agency that I am aware of in this province has lost the ability to do public displays because insurance will not cover them due to unwarranted bites (mostly due to their one Malinois on the force).

The other issue I have see is with redirected aggression. Imagine a dog apprehending someone, you go to "out" them and, being overstimulated, they turn to bite you. Good example is here at the 45 second mark:




Not only is that a potential injury but a cross contamination if the dog has just had his teeth sunk into some crackhead and then nails you.

It is, in general, a more intense breed, great for apprehension work, are generally very operant and are responsive but I feel that there is an intensity there that cannot be sustained over the long haul. Oh, very athletic and agile as well.


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## hunterisgreat

I've seen that video and remember very clearly the part where he body slams the dog to get him to unclamp from his hand. lol nuts


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## psdontario

I saw a man have the calf torn off his leg, right beside me by his own Mal during an agitation session. A good reason not to wear shorts I suppose. There is something very unnerving about the amount of white, fleshy fat in the back of a leg. He had to have major surgery/grafting to have it repaired. I have never seen a shepherd do that much damage... at least not a sound dog.


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## DFrost

psdontario said:


> The Malinois he was referring to would whip themselves into such a frenzy tracking that they could not sustain this pace for the length of track that the GSD's were doing.
> 
> 
> This might be also related to the other downfall for the breed and that is exertional myositis (best to Google that term plus Malinois for more information) and/or exercise induced collapse.
> I know of multiple agencies that employ these dogs with the understanding that they are a higher bite ratio dog, meaning, more of a liability and they utilize them carefully (they are usually find and bite dogs that are deployed at the officers discretion).
> 
> Another agency that I am aware of in this province has lost the ability to do public displays because insurance will not cover them due to unwarranted bites (mostly due to their one Malinois on the force).
> 
> The other issue I have see is with redirected aggression. Imagine a dog apprehending someone, you go to "out" them and, being overstimulated, they turn to bite you. Good example is here at the 45 second mark:
> YouTube - Malinois
> Not only is that a potential injury but a cross contamination if the dog has just had his teeth sunk into some crackhead and then nails you.
> 
> It is, in general, a more intense breed, great for apprehension work, are generally very operant and are responsive but I feel that there is an intensity there that cannot be sustained over the long haul. Oh, very athletic and agile as well.


 

That may be your "biased" opinion, it certainly is not consistent with my experiences with the Mal. Keep in mind, I'm not a fan of the Mal. Personally, the GSD is the best all-around police service dog. As a trainer and program manager however, I do respect their abilities. Only from your description and not from the experiences I've had with Canadian police and their dog trainers, one would gather Canada has some serious problems with their dog trainers. Problems that the majority of police departments in the U.S Europe are NOT having. 


1. The Mals ability to track is certainly no less than the GSD. Their strength and stamina is no less than the GSD on a track. A dog that is allowed to "whip themselves into such a frenzy" is poorly trained and/or was a poor selection to be in a program that requires tracking. 

2. The Mal is not the only breed that is capable of exercise induced collapse. Again, it's the training or the initial selection of a dog that permits them to reach that level of excitement. 

3. The major users I have contact with have not experienced an increase in the bite ratio for those handlers that have Mals. The bite ration in my department between the mals GSD's and Dutchies are near identical. All of our dogs are find and bite. Because of officer safety I refuse to train bark and hold. One might expect the bite ratio to increase depending on shift or location, but certainly not because of breed. 

4. The "cross contamination" is nothing more than an old wives tale. There has never been a case of transfer of an infection from a subject that was bitten to another subject. Certainly dog bites get infected, but then a dog's mouth isn't the cleanest place on earth. There would be more concern from blood being on the dog's hair after a scuffle than his teeth. 

5. The training film you linked has been around for a long time. Russian, I think. I have seen that happen with about any breed you can imagine. Some dogs, not necessarily breed specific do get excited during certain exercises. In critiquing that film there are some training issues that would need worked on that would have prevented that incident in the first place. 

6. I'm not sure what you mean by; " I feel that there is an intensity there that cannot be sustained over the long haul." If you mean you don't think the mal will last as long as the GSD, that also is not consistent with my experience. In fact, it seems like the mal has perhaps a slightly longer working life. It's too early to really compare seeing how GSD's have been used for considerably longer time in history for police work, compared to the mal. 

I don't know if your "police friend" was pulling your leg or been flooded with some really bad examples of the Mal breed. He sure seems to have a lot of problems a lot of other trainers are not having. I only have 8 Mals in our "dog fleet". None of them exhibit the behaviors that seem so common place to your dog trainer friend.

DFrost


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## psdontario

DFrost said:


> That may be your "biased" opinion, it certainly is not consistent with my experiences with the Mal. Keep in mind, I'm not a fan of the Mal. Personally, the GSD is the best all-around police service dog. As a trainer and program manager however, I do respect their abilities. Only from your description and not from the experiences I've had with Canadian police and their dog trainers, one would gather Canada has some serious problems with their dog trainers. Problems that the majority of police departments in the U.S Europe are NOT having.
> 
> 
> 1. The Mals ability to track is certainly no less than the GSD. Their strength and stamina is no less than the GSD on a track. A dog that is allowed to "whip themselves into such a frenzy" is poorly trained and/or was a poor selection to be in a program that requires tracking.
> 
> 2. The Mal is not the only breed that is capable of exercise induced collapse. Again, it's the training or the initial selection of a dog that permits them to reach that level of excitement.
> 
> 3. The major users I have contact with have not experienced an increase in the bite ratio for those handlers that have Mals. The bite ration in my department between the mals GSD's and Dutchies are near identical. All of our dogs are find and bite. Because of officer safety I refuse to train bark and hold. One might expect the bite ratio to increase depending on shift or location, but certainly not because of breed.
> 
> 4. The "cross contamination" is nothing more than an old wives tale. There has never been a case of transfer of an infection from a subject that was bitten to another subject. Certainly dog bites get infected, but then a dog's mouth isn't the cleanest place on earth. There would be more concern from blood being on the dog's hair after a scuffle than his teeth.
> 
> 5. The training film you linked has been around for a long time. Russian, I think. I have seen that happen with about any breed you can imagine. Some dogs, not necessarily breed specific do get excited during certain exercises. In critiquing that film there are some training issues that would need worked on that would have prevented that incident in the first place.
> 
> 6. I'm not sure what you mean by; " I feel that there is an intensity there that cannot be sustained over the long haul." If you mean you don't think the mal will last as long as the GSD, that also is not consistent with my experience. In fact, it seems like the mal has perhaps a slightly longer working life. It's too early to really compare seeing how GSD's have been used for considerably longer time in history for police work, compared to the mal.
> 
> I don't know if your "police friend" was pulling your leg or been flooded with some really bad examples of the Mal breed. He sure seems to have a lot of problems a lot of other trainers are not having. I only have 8 Mals in our "dog fleet". None of them exhibit the behaviors that seem so common place to your dog trainer friend.
> 
> DFrost


Actually, the "friend" you speak of was not a friend, but was head of the RCMP K9 program for some time, still does consults in retirement. Met for dinner only, that is where that statement was made. This was a long time ago when they introduced them so... you never know?!? I have seen some very bad examples handled by officers here (one very good one, but I am almost certain it was mixed with Shep... my wife grooms it actually), but I have seen a larger percentage of basket case dogs since the recent influx of the breed in the competition agility crowd up here. People bought them as a "border collie in a shepherd body"... bad idea.

Good to hear there has never been a transfer of disease such as aids or hep-C from a bite to bite scenario, always played heavy on my mind actually, are you saying it is medically impossible with the blood to blood transfer? Just curious. I would not want the risk personally.

What's interesting about your comment regarding Canadian PSD trainers, the individuals that I deal with most up here have spent a decent amount time putting on seminars in the U.S. ... and are invited down regularly. I will not post their names here but would gladly provide them to you in PM if you would like. Not sure about that, however, there is a lack of standardization up here, at least in this province, so protocol differ from municipality to municipality. 
Exercise induced collapse being controlled by training? I would be very interested in seeing a dog that suffers from it improve with training. Yes, Labs also suffer from it, had a client that had a dog that would crash during an obedience class, it was almost like a fainting goat... I have seen dietary changes improve it, that and overall focus, but not training. Then again, I have seen dietary changes cure aggression issues as well without training for a number of pet dog clients of mine. Thought it (exertional myositis/ex. induced collapse) was more chemistry and perception related, but have been wrong before.

The intensity of the Malinois does not seem paced or controlled. It SEEMS full on, most of the time. I cannot see that being able to be sustained over a few hours on a track, but I have never tracked one over that distance, with the exception of one certified SAR dog but, then again, that was only over 2 kilometers. I do know that in a breed survey done by Kenth Svartberg (a Swedish behaviorist?) who did a "Dog Mental Test" I believe similar to the Korning test, the Malinois scored very high in most of the categories (higher scores do not mean better necessarily) including, playfullness, aggressiveness, sociability, etc. which, in some peoples eyes would be good, however, when you have a dog that is outgoing, quick to aggress, but playful, mixed signals could be misleading. I will try to find that research paper if you are interested, I think I have it in one of my PABA seminar notes. It is very interesting.

The bite ratio discussion came from a PSD trainer I placed a dog with in the U.S. actually, but he also breeds Mals, so he obviously feels they do a good job. His reference can be found on my website, he is a master trainer with ASCT I believe. As I said, he breeds them as well as sheps, likes them for the work so they must do the job well.

As I mentioned, this is not information coming from one source. More of a combination of my experience, and a number of others (which I can provide references for), in law enforcement, civilian competition and with the pet public (the pet public is a messy one for sure). This post is not to be taken as the gospel, just sharing experience and discussions with others only and definitely not to offend anyone. 
I would actually like to see more of the breed working well. I prep dogs for a purpose, not to support a "pure breed" of any type. Work is first... I am sure we can agree on that.

Cheers,

Mike


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## robinhuerta

I really enjoyed *most* of this thread/posts....good discussion & informative writing, makes interesting & educational reading.


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## FG167

psdontario said:


> I do know that in a breed survey done by Kenth Svartberg (a Swedish behaviorist?) who did a "Dog Mental Test" I believe similar to the Korning test, the Malinois scored very high in most of the categories (higher scores do not mean better necessarily) including, playfullness, aggressiveness, sociability, etc. which, in some peoples eyes would be good, however, when you have a dog that is outgoing, quick to aggress, but playful, mixed signals could be misleading. I will try to find that research paper if you are interested, I think I have it in one of my PABA seminar notes. It is very interesting.


I would be very interested to read this study! I find tests like this absolutely fascinating!!

I have a Dutch Shepherd, which supposedly is supposed to be a "Mal with an off switch" - and he definitely does have an off switch. As for his stamina - he could go all day and all night. My TD has commented several times that I could keep bringing him in to work and he would keep bringing it on. It would obviously take some "building" to teach him to pace himself to be able to use his mind for a very extended period in a very intense fashion but from what I've seen so far (he's only 20 months), he could definitely do it. He's a very focused, intense dog - very bright and will go until he cannot go any longer - we've never reached that point. He does tend to throw himself in there with 100% of everything he's got if it's something he sees as "short" - aka, if he knows we're only going to do something for 20 minutes - he leaves it all out there on the field. However, as he learns that things last longer and longer, he definitely shows that he can pace himself until he's working to the best of his ability for extended time.


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## AbbyK9

> The other issue I have see is with redirected aggression. Imagine a dog apprehending someone, you go to "out" them and, being overstimulated, they turn to bite you.


It has been my (limited) experience that many departments no longer train a reliable out on command and instead rely on the officer coming up and literally pulling or choking the dog off the bite. If that is your primary method of removing a dog from a bite, it does not surprise me that officers are getting bitten in the process due to the lack of a proper, reliable out, since the dog is wound up and has to be wrestled off the subject.

On a side note, Mals are not the only ones to turn on their handlers. A couple of months ago, I competed at an "Iron Dog" event where a group of local K-9 officers gave a public bite work demo after the main event. Four of the dogs were in down/stays while a fifth (a Mal) was doing bitework. Mal called off with no issues, returned to the handler. One of the GSDs in a down/stay got so wound up, he went up the leash and attacked his handler.


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## Mrs.K

AbbyK9 said:


> It has been my (limited) experience that many departments no longer train a reliable out on command and instead rely on the officer coming up and literally pulling or choking the dog off the bite. If that is your primary method of removing a dog from a bite, it does not surprise me that officers are getting bitten in the process due to the lack of a proper, reliable out, since the dog is wound up and has to be wrestled off the subject.
> 
> On a side note, Mals are not the only ones to turn on their handlers. A couple of months ago, I competed at an "Iron Dog" event where a group of local K-9 officers gave a public bite work demo after the main event. Four of the dogs were in down/stays while a fifth (a Mal) was doing bitework. Mal called off with no issues, returned to the handler. One of the GSDs in a down/stay got so wound up, he went up the leash and attacked his handler.


Actually, that is what is considered a "hard" dog with many old-school handler. A dog that doesn't turn on his handler isn't a hard enough dog. I've had quite a few handlers show me proudly their bite-marks on their hands and arms. 

It's stupid but it's still going on over there. I don't get it. It's stupid but that is how a lot of people still train their dogs and they are literally proud to say "My dog is so **** hard that he turns on me. Look at the bite-marks."


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## DFrost

AbbyK9 said:


> It has been my (limited) experience that many departments no longer train a reliable out on command and instead rely on the officer coming up and literally pulling or choking the dog off the bite. .


All of the recognized certification agencies in the U.S. require a reliable out command. It's comments such as this from people with limited experience that cause misinformation to be propagated. If you care to research my comments reference the call out, just google some of the more recognized certification agencies. USPCA, IPWDA, NAPWDA, and there are others. YOu can read it for yourself.

DFrost


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## DFrost

Mrs.K said:


> .
> 
> I don't get it. It's stupid but that is how a lot of people still train their dogs and they are literally proud to say "My dog is so **** hard that he turns on me. Look at the bite-marks."


Maybe it's that way in Europe (which isn't my experience at all) certainly isn't that way in teh U.S. Don't you think the insurance companies and workers comp would get tired of paying out all the expenses. Do dog bites happen, yes. Certainly is not something we take pride in or encourage. In training, accidents happen. In the video you saw a dog that did not have the proper control and was highly stimulated. It was also an old video and not from the U. S. 

DFrost


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## timmster

DFrost, if you said that for a police dog to be certified in the United States, the dog must have a reliable out command? Than how I have seen many dogs biting down on an apprehended suspect and the handler has to run up to and wrestle the dog away?

I would suspect that the most important command for any police dog would be the "out" command, yet I've seen dogs continue to hold until the handler rips the dog away. Is it simply because the dog has become too excited and just unintentionally zones out the handler? Or is it because all the videos I have seen were featuring poorly trained dogs?


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## psdontario

FG167 said:


> I would be very interested to read this study! I find tests like this absolutely fascinating!!
> 
> I have a Dutch Shepherd, which supposedly is supposed to be a "Mal with an off switch" - and he definitely does have an off switch. As for his stamina - he could go all day and all night. My TD has commented several times that I could keep bringing him in to work and he would keep bringing it on. It would obviously take some "building" to teach him to pace himself to be able to use his mind for a very extended period in a very intense fashion but from what I've seen so far (he's only 20 months), he could definitely do it. He's a very focused, intense dog - very bright and will go until he cannot go any longer - we've never reached that point. He does tend to throw himself in there with 100% of everything he's got if it's something he sees as "short" - aka, if he knows we're only going to do something for 20 minutes - he leaves it all out there on the field. However, as he learns that things last longer and longer, he definitely shows that he can pace himself until he's working to the best of his ability for extended time.


Decided to post this link rather than PM. Here is part of the study that I found online. Will look for test results as well online, but, if I cannot find them, I will scan and post (please remind me if I forget):

Powered by Google Docs

SIDE NOTE: I did a track today with a Malinois bitch. The dog is an OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) certified SAR dog with a civilian handler, the only certified dog in my area. The handler has just had knee surgery and could not track the dog (for the past 3 months) and asked us to work the dog for her. My 8 yr old daughter and I laid a track, through the snow (sometimes up to my waist) for approximately 500 yards, criss crossing my property, through contaminated areas (dog urine, people tracks, past our boarding kennel). Track went very well once dog adjusted to the new handler. Of course, intense engagement at the end with tug, but overall, excellent track. This dog is now 4-1/2.

There is one thing I did not mention in my previous post regarding my opinion of Malinois and that was that the majority of my hands-on experiences were with dogs that were under two years of age (I just realized this as I thought about it more). This could have well been the case with the RCMP and I may inquire about that. With regard to bite ratios, I would like to explore the ages of the dogs and handler experience as well but this might be more difficult to determine. I, like everyone else, have opinions, but my opinions are not set in stone, especially when others, who have more experience than I, can honestly say that their experiences are quite different. Great thing about these lists, aside from politics there is a great deal of knowledge to be shared.



AbbyK9 said:


> It has been my (limited) experience that many departments no longer train a reliable out on command and instead rely on the officer coming up and literally pulling or choking the dog off the bite. If that is your primary method of removing a dog from a bite, it does not surprise me that officers are getting bitten in the process due to the lack of a proper, reliable out, since the dog is wound up and has to be wrestled off the subject.
> 
> On a side note, Mals are not the only ones to turn on their handlers. A couple of months ago, I competed at an "Iron Dog" event where a group of local K-9 officers gave a public bite work demo after the main event. Four of the dogs were in down/stays while a fifth (a Mal) was doing bitework. Mal called off with no issues, returned to the handler. One of the GSDs in a down/stay got so wound up, he went up the leash and attacked his handler.


Have experienced this too with the out, but the slowly choked dogs seems to redirect less because they calm/come down enough to think straight... and man, do those ones hit and bite hard (opposition reflex?). I had an officer send a dog at me during a school demonstration. Once the dog had engaged me, he approached me with back to the crowd and told me "stay still, he won't out" and proceeded to slowly choke him off the bite. I could tell by the way he was handling the dog that he had experienced the results that a sudden correction would create (redirect) and that a slow loss of air was best to avoid conflict. Believe this was a Dutch Shep, but the vendor at the time was selling a variety of Shep/Mal/Dutchie mixes. Have seen this many times with over-the-top Shepherds as well. I am NOT proud to say I have a scar on my stomach where just such a dog taught me to remember to wear scratch pants during bark and hold exercises. Outing this particular dog off of the sleeve without stimulation from the decoy lead to the handler being bit. Same dog bit a helper in the groin and buttocks during a trial as well. I never said that Shepherds (especially these sport-bred dynamos I see more of) were without their issues, I just see and hear of less issues in comparison per dog than with Mals. Perhaps I should not comment without more thorough statistical data...

Great posts, good experiences shared. Look forward to more.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## ladylaw203

[QUOTEQ, at least in this province, so protocol differ from municipality to municipality. 
Exercise induced collapse being controlled by training? I would be very interested in seeing a dog that suffers from it improve with training. Yes, Labs also suffer from it, had a client that had a dog that would crash during an obedience class, it was almost like a fainting goat... I have seen dietary changes improve it, that and overall focus, but not training. Then again, I have seen dietary changes cure aggression issues as well without training for a number of pet dog clients of mine. Thought it (exertional myositis/ex. induced collapse) was more chemistry and perception related, but have been wrong before.
UOTE]


Exercise induced collapse is something that popped up in labs several years ago. We test our breeding stock now for the Gene 


Unfortunatly, there are nervy Mals out there. Mals who are handler aggressive, have out problems, cannot cap their own drive etc are nerve bags. Pure and simple. I have two Mals that are solid one is one of my bomb dogs. One has to evaluate the dog's temperament. The problem we run into with GSDs is finding the high degree of retrieve/hunt drive that we need for scent detection work. Most agencies prefer a dual purpose patrol/narc dog. A solid GSD is hard to beat for patrol work,but the retrieve drive is hard to find. I have Dutchies as well. Easier to find one with a solid temperament than a Mal


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## ladylaw203

timmster said:


> DFrost, if you said that for a police dog to be certified in the United States, the dog must have a reliable out command? Than how I have seen many dogs biting down on an apprehended suspect and the handler has to run up to and wrestle the dog away?
> 
> I would suspect that the most important command for any police dog would be the "out" command, yet I've seen dogs continue to hold until the handler rips the dog away. Is it simply because the dog has become too excited and just unintentionally zones out the handler? Or is it because all the videos I have seen were featuring poorly trained dogs?


 
depends on the organization. I am a certifying official for NNDDA,the largest in the US. Dog outs and has a recall or he fails. 
Many dogs with an out problem are actually weak dogs. Depends

Any agency that does not require a realiable out and recall had better have very deep pockets


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## Mrs.K

DFrost said:


> Maybe it's that way in Europe (which isn't my experience at all) certainly isn't that way in teh U.S. Don't you think the insurance companies and workers comp would get tired of paying out all the expenses. Do dog bites happen, yes. Certainly is not something we take pride in or encourage. In training, accidents happen. In the video you saw a dog that did not have the proper control and was highly stimulated. It was also an old video and not from the U. S.
> 
> DFrost


Urm... you don't understand... in Germany all the dog handlers are rough and tough, they have their anual Tetanus shot and once you get punctured you just shake it off like a bug and Soldier on! 

Plus, you don't go to the insurance to ask if something is covered. Especially when it's something minor like that. You go to the doctor, get an appointment, hand over your insurance card and possibly pay the quarterly office fee. You don't need to explain what happened either. Especially if it's your regular doctor. Nothing will be reported at all. 

Insurance matter work a little different over there than over here. 

Plus, if you have liability insurance in Germany is much nicer. i paid like 10 bucks in Germany and was covered for 10 MILLION Euros. I could actually BREAK things (accidently). Not like over here where you pay a lot and barely have any coverage at all. Also, dogs are usually included because you don't get sued over for thousands of thousands of dollars. It doesn't work that way over there. Common sense still applies in court.


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## GregK

ladylaw203 said:


> depends on the organization. I am a certifying official for NNDDA,the largest in the US. Dog outs and has a recall or he fails.


 
This is the way it should be. It just doesn't make sense to me to have a dog trained to bite, not trained to let go.


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## FG167

psdontario said:


> There is one thing I did not mention in my previous post regarding my opinion of Malinois and that was that the majority of my hands-on experiences were with dogs that were under two years of age (I just realized this as I thought about it more).


I am experiencing some issues with my Dutch as far as reactivity goes and he is 20 months old - everyone keeps telling me to give him a year and a half and see where we are then. He's SO much better than he was at 10 weeks old so I'm hoping we make the same strides in the same direction in more time. 



> Have experienced this too with the out, but the slowly choked dogs seems to redirect less because they calm/come down enough to think straight...


I am experiencing this with my dog right now too actually, today was the first time really. He outs just fine, very quickly, extremely responsive to me and I don't have ANY issues with him redirecting on me. However, when he does get reactive, it was a lot better today to choke him "down" than if I "corrected". Although in this case, and I hear that many Mals and Dutchies are bred this way, he has a desperate drive to please me and the correction seems to confuse him and cause him to "react" without thinking...



ladylaw203 said:


> I have Dutchies as well. Easier to find one with a solid temperament than a Mal


Where do you get your Dutchies from? This is ultimately why I chose a DS over a Mal and while Madix isn't crazy with no off switch (as I've heard Mals called numerous times), we are dealing with reactivity and being a little more nervy than I really prefer.


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## DFrost

timmster said:


> DFrost, if you said that for a police dog to be certified in the United States, the dog must have a reliable out command? Than how I have seen many dogs biting down on an apprehended suspect and the handler has to run up to and wrestle the dog away?
> 
> I would suspect that the most important command for any police dog would be the "out" command, yet I've seen dogs continue to hold until the handler rips the dog away. Is it simply because the dog has become too excited and just unintentionally zones out the handler? Or is it because all the videos I have seen were featuring poorly trained dogs?


Actually what I said was; All the certifying agencies I'm familiar with require an out. 

Videos of the dog not releasing are more exciting to watch is one reason. Another reason may well be the dog was removed that way for tactical reasons. Just because a dog was physically removed doesn't mean it won't release on command. 

Of course there is a possibility of poorly trained dogs as well. I've never said there weren't poorly trained dogs. 

DFrost


----------



## DFrost

Mrs.K said:


> Urm... you don't understand... in Germany all the dog handlers are rough and tough, they have their anual Tetanus shot and once you get punctured you just shake it off like a bug and Soldier on!
> 
> .


I'm just glad that wasn't a requirement when I went to dog school in Germany. It's funny though, the German K9 officers I talk with don't agree with your assessment, but I guess we all have our own experiences. 

DFrost


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## DFrost

"Exercise induced collapse being controlled by training? I would be very interested in seeing a dog that suffers from it improve with training."

Actually, what I said was;"... it's the training or the initial selection of a dog that permits them to reach that level of excitement." 


DFrost


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## psdontario

Would you be able to provide me with a link or material with regard to the exercise induced collapse gene you spoke of?
PM if you wish.

Cheers
Mike



Let me look. I had a great research paper in one of my Retriever News. EIC scared us all to death several years ago. Dogs dropping like flies at field trials. Blamed it on Ebonstar Lean Mac. We did not buy it. At one time 75% of the competing field trial dogs had Mac in them. I have a couple. EIC clear. 
I believe they determined that the afflicted dogs lacked an enzyme they needed. Dogs just keeled over. Add one more test to perform on all of our pups. 
Let me look it up for you


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## Chris Wild

I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe this has been covered already. 

But one major factor is just simple economics.

There are more suitable Mals out there than GSDs. The working ability of the Mal has not been diluted with generations of pet and show breeding as has happened with GSDs. Though it is starting to go that way with Mals bred for AKC showing, they are still a small percentage of the Mals out there and even those not nearly as genetically removed as their working cousins so even poorly or randomly bred Mals will often have better working qualities than similarly bred GSDs. Take a random population sampling of 100 Mals and 100 GSDs, and you're going to get more suitable Mals than GSDs. Restrict that GSD population to certain lines, rather than the general GSD population as a whole, and it will be more even. 

Mals are also cheaper than GSDs. Figure in they have a smaller market, with very little interest from show or pet people, and price goes down. Conversely, the price for a GSD of equal quality is typically much higher than the price of a Mal, due to simple supply and demand.

And as a whole, the Belgian Shepherd breeds have less health problems than GSDs so there is a better chance of the initial investment paying off with a longer working life.


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## psdontario

ladylaw203 said:


> depends on the organization. I am a certifying official for NNDDA,the largest in the US. Dog outs and has a recall or he fails.
> Many dogs with an out problem are actually weak dogs. Depends
> 
> Any agency that does not require a realiable out and recall had better have very deep pockets


LadyLaw, I like that criteria, however, I do not "do the job" as I am only a civilian raising dogs for service work. I know of a number of officers who would prefer the dog need to be choked off than having them potentially anticipate an out and let go of a suspect before they should. The majority of these officers also employ a find and bite policy as opposed to bark and hold. Additional thoughts on this (aside from the reliability and need for deep pocket ? 

Could you expand on your comment regarding the "out" problem and relation to weak dogs please. Not looking to create conflict, but better understanding of your experience. It appears that with each agency I work with there are a great number of differing processes, opinions and preferences. I raise my dogs based on enhancing inherent abilities, traits and instincts but without refining it so much that the dog becomes too specific (eg. enhancing natural search/scenting skills through random exercises but not shaping a final indication, passive or aggressive, so that the dog can be trained by its final handler in the manner they see fit). For this reason, I also do very little in the way of aggression work aside from a few agitation sessions and a few bites to get them started and evaluate that aspect. I do teach a solid out, however, through intense tug work, but nothing can compare to the intensity of the bitework... at least not in what I would consider a sound/level-headed dog.


Any information is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## psdontario

DFrost said:


> Actually what I said was; All the certifying agencies I'm familiar with require an out.
> 
> Videos of the dog not releasing are more exciting to watch is one reason. Another reason may well be the dog was removed that way for tactical reasons. Just because a dog was physically removed doesn't mean it won't release on command.
> 
> Of course there is a possibility of poorly trained dogs as well. I've never said there weren't poorly trained dogs.
> 
> DFrost


Those videos are more interesting, LOL. 
Could be tactical move (good point), could be a poorly trained dog, could be a scenario that was not thought of or cannot be reproduced in training. Real life events are so much different than training scenarios, maybe not in the actions, but the intensity. Dogs with real bites do not get the timed reinforcement provided by many decoys. People who ARE NOT padded up flail and respond differently, scream more realistically, do not present the bite zones dogs are used to and the dog will naturally get ramped up in these situations. This is not the venue of sport where things are controlled with routine and repetition... see how long it takes to perfect something in that (sport) venue, then try to apply it to an infinite number of situations.


----------



## AbbyK9

> All of the recognized certification agencies in the U.S. require a reliable out command.


Yet many agencies appear not to have or not to keep up on the reliable out. Apparently, it's enough of an issue that you pretty frequently see dogs wrestled off a subject, both in actual work and off in public demonstrations by K-9 units. Several of the police K-9's we competed again at the Vermont Iron Dog did not out on command during the building search. And it's enough of an issue that K-9 Cop Magazine did a whole article on training a reliable out, too.

So you tell me, are all agencies training a reliable out? Obviously not. Should they be? Of course.


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## Wildtim

Actually there are some police agencies that do not teach an out at all as an official part of their training curriculum. Their reasoning is legal. 

1) If the officer gives any command and the dog does not obey it calls the dogs training into question and therefore some parts of a legal case.

2)If the dog doesn't let go of the suspect until the handler removes him, he can't bite a bystander or another assisting officer accidentally, avoiding that liability.

3) once the dog lets go that encounter is over and should the dog rebite or even nip it could be interpreted as an improper use of force later in court.

These agencies will train the dog to hang on, even to a subject that has gone neutral until the handler physically removes them. Personally it's poor dog training, but given today's sue happy society it might be smart public policy. Along with this goes the reason that they do not tech an out, rather than just not use it, because should the dog "officially" know how to out you could later as why the commend wasn't given.


----------



## Mrs.K

DFrost said:


> I'm just glad that wasn't a requirement when I went to dog school in Germany. It's funny though, the German K9 officers I talk with don't agree with your assessment, but I guess we all have our own experiences.
> 
> DFrost


Yes, plus I wasn't talking about Cops. I was being ironic and talking about all those old-school semi-hard-rough&tough Schutzhund people.  And yes, I am trying to be sarcastic because I really don't like these kind of people because those are the guys that give Schutzhund a really bad name.


----------



## ladylaw203

Wildtim said:


> Actually there are some police agencies that do not teach an out at all as an official part of their training curriculum. Their reasoning is legal.
> 
> 1) If the officer gives any command and the dog does not obey it calls the dogs training into question and therefore some parts of a legal case.
> 
> 2)If the dog doesn't let go of the suspect until the handler removes him, he can't bite a bystander or another assisting officer accidentally, avoiding that liability.
> 
> 3) once the dog lets go that encounter is over and should the dog rebite or even nip it could be interpreted as an improper use of force later in court.
> 
> These agencies will train the dog to hang on, even to a subject that has gone neutral until the handler physically removes them. Personally it's poor dog training, but given today's sue happy society it might be smart public policy. Along with this goes the reason that they do not tech an out, rather than just not use it, because should the dog "officially" know how to out you could later as why the commend wasn't given.


THat is old old school. twently some odd years ago we did that. Those departments had better call Terry Fleck and get some education unless they have a fat bank account. This is just an example

In addition, the courts have been emphasizing the “immediate” release of a suspect once the handler commands it. The courts have also been emphasizing handler control. In six cases, *Fikes v Cleghorn, Quintanilla v City of Downey, Martineau v City of Cypress, Parra v City of Chino, Miller v Clark County* and *Vera Cruz v City of Escondido,* the courts emphasized control by stating that the police dog was trained to immediately release arrestees on command, as it did so in these cases.
In *Johnson v Scott*, the Court stated:
Under the Fourth Amendment, *a police officer may not continue to use force against a suspect who is subdued and complying with the officer’s orders.*
Due to the fact the courts are mandating “complete control” of the dog and the “immediate release” of a suspect, once the handler commands it, it is time to consider new tactics and training philosophies:


----------



## ladylaw203

psdontario said:


> LadyLaw, I like that criteria, however, I do not "do the job" as I am only a civilian raising dogs for service work. I know of a number of officers who would prefer the dog need to be choked off than having them potentially anticipate an out and let go of a suspect before they should. The majority of these officers also employ a find and bite policy as opposed to bark and hold. Additional thoughts on this (aside from the reliability and need for deep pocket ?
> 
> Could you expand on your comment regarding the "out" problem and relation to weak dogs please. Not looking to create conflict, but better understanding of your experience. It appears that with each agency I work with there are a great number of differing processes, opinions and preferences. I raise my dogs based on enhancing inherent abilities, traits and instincts but without refining it so much that the dog becomes too specific (eg. enhancing natural search/scenting skills through random exercises but not shaping a final indication, passive or aggressive, so that the dog can be trained by its final handler in the manner they see fit). For this reason, I also do very little in the way of aggression work aside from a few agitation sessions and a few bites to get them started and evaluate that aspect. I do teach a solid out, however, through intense tug work, but nothing can compare to the intensity of the bitework... at least not in what I would consider a sound/level-headed dog.
> 
> 
> Any information is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike


 
Most of us train bite and hold. A traditional Bark and Hold "sport" dog must be tweaked for the street. I have been a cop 32 years and cannot recall anyone that I am dealing with standing perfectly still. They throw theirs arms around and talk about my mother. The dog must be proofed to movement unlike he was trained as a sport dog. If I am justified in sending the dog, send him. If the guy surrenders, my dog has a solid recall. simple. 


I have seen plenty weak nerved dogs hang onto a sleeve for dear life with their eyes slammed shut refusing to out. Think about it. It takes control and a solid temperament to take down a guy and release on command. And,proper training. Not ALL dogs with an out problem are weak dogs. I am just saying that I have been called in to fix them and have found this to be true at times.


----------



## ladylaw203

psdontario said:


> Would you be able to provide me with a link or material with regard to the exercise induced collapse gene you spoke of?
> PM if you wish.
> 
> Cheers
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Let me look. I had a great research paper in one of my Retriever News. EIC scared us all to death several years ago. Dogs dropping like flies at field trials. Blamed it on Ebonstar Lean Mac. We did not buy it. At one time 75% of the competing field trial dogs had Mac in them. I have a couple. EIC clear.
> I believe they determined that the afflicted dogs lacked an enzyme they needed. Dogs just keeled over. Add one more test to perform on all of our pups.
> Let me look it up for you


 
OOPS, I just screwed up your post. sorry. I should not be eating dinner and typing. apparently,I am unable to do both..........


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## DFrost

You know how it is, ya watch a youtube, talk to a canine cop and your an expert. I've only been doing this for 40 years, what do I know.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203

Groundbreaking discovery leads to genetic test for EIC in Labrador retrievers | AKC Canine Health Foundation


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## Mrs.K

DFrost said:


> You know how it is, ya watch a youtube, talk to a canine cop and your an expert. I've only been doing this for 40 years, what do I know.
> 
> DFrost


Two weeks ago I've had an interesting conversation with one of my SAR Teammates. 

It went like that. 

Him: Are you going to continue with Schutzhund?
Me: Why?
Him: Because I don't want to see your dog going after a three year old girl attacking it
Me: Oh that is ridiculous, she will not go after a little girl
Him: I've been watching videos on youtube and when I see that police work
Me: Police work is not Schutzhund, Schutzhund is a sport and I have never seen a Schutzhund go after a little girl. 
Him: Well, I trust you, not the dog. I will be watching her and if I see something I don't like...

But surprisingly I have a lot of backup within the team regarding the Schutzhund Training and I am "allowed" to continue. I guess quite a few teams don't like SAR dogs to be Schutzhund dogs also...at least that was what I was told. They think they are out of control...


----------



## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Two weeks ago I've had an interesting conversation with one of my SAR Teammates.
> 
> It went like that.
> 
> Him: Are you going to continue with Schutzhund?
> Me: Why?
> Him: Because I don't want to see your dog going after a three year old girl attacking it
> Me: Oh that is ridiculous, she will not go after a little girl
> Him: I've been watching videos on youtube and when I see that police work
> Me: Police work is not Schutzhund, Schutzhund is a sport and I have never seen a Schutzhund go after a little girl.
> Him: Well, I trust you, not the dog. I will be watching her and if I see something I don't like...
> 
> But surprisingly I have a lot of backup within the team regarding the Schutzhund Training and I am "allowed" to continue. I guess quite a few teams don't like SAR dogs to be Schutzhund dogs also...at least that was what I was told. They think they are out of control...


I was originally flip flopping between SAR and Schutzhund for Katya and the SAR folks basically told me to pick.. can't do both. Not sure I agree and your post makes me agree less.


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## FG167

I know of several SAR groups here that do not allow dogs that are training or have been trained in Schutzhund


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## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> I was originally flip flopping between SAR and Schutzhund for Katya and the SAR folks basically told me to pick.. can't do both. Not sure I agree and your post makes me agree less.


It's only one guy that is against Schutzhund. Everybody else is very supportive. Our team has problems like every other team but I actually believe that I joined the one team that is pro-Schutzhund. 


Also, if you ever need a good argument. 

Juergen Ritzi held a Koerung in Tengen last year. An old man went missing and they had like a dozen Schutzhund Dogs that were also titled as SAR dogs. They interrupted the breed evaluation and went on a search. Guess who found the missing man. It was the current Bundessieger. 

A lot of Schutzhund handlers decide to get their dogs titled in SAR also to proof their diversity and it's getting more and more popular especially since the SV itself is a member of the IRO (yeah they should change their name from internationa rescuedog organization to internationa search&rescue organization though LOL_) IRO - Internationale Rettungshunde Organisation: Home


----------



## Fast

Chris Wild said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe this has been covered already.
> 
> But one major factor is just simple economics.
> 
> There are more suitable Mals out there than GSDs. The working ability of the Mal has not been diluted with generations of pet and show breeding as has happened with GSDs. Though it is starting to go that way with Mals bred for AKC showing, they are still a small percentage of the Mals out there and even those not nearly as genetically removed as their working cousins so even poorly or randomly bred Mals will often have better working qualities than similarly bred GSDs. Take a random population sampling of 100 Mals and 100 GSDs, and you're going to get more suitable Mals than GSDs. Restrict that GSD population to certain lines, rather than the general GSD population as a whole, and it will be more even.
> 
> Mals are also cheaper than GSDs. Figure in they have a smaller market, with very little interest from show or pet people, and price goes down. Conversely, the price for a GSD of equal quality is typically much higher than the price of a Mal, due to simple supply and demand.
> 
> And as a whole, the Belgian Shepherd breeds have less health problems than GSDs so there is a better chance of the initial investment paying off with a longer working life.


That's a good post! 

I would also like to add that the Malinois is not saddled with the health and breed testing like the GSD. The only place that requires testing is Germany. This allows breeders to evaluate the dog as a whole; not the individual parts. It also helps to keep the cost of the dogs down because breeders don't have to spend thousands of dollars training, showing, testing, etc.


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## ladylaw203

..::Eurosport K-9 Training and Import Services

I recently purchased this dog. As you can see he is titled in SAR as well as sport. 
I do realize the hesitation here to allow a dog with "bitework" to do SAR because not all dogs trained in bitework are solid and should never never do both. It should be on a case by case basis however. My dog is not civil and I have no problem deploying him in a SAR situation


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## AbbyK9

> I recently purchased this dog. As you can see he is titled in SAR as well as sport.


That is one gorgeous dog!


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## pache11

Go to your local puppy mill and get either GSD or Mal. Neither would make a good police or protection partner. Either breeed will be great at the work depending on blood lines and temperment. Puppy selection and parental temperment are both much more important then wich breed you choose.


----------



## pache11

Then comes training.... Take a promising puppy and bring out the best with great training, or destroy puppy creating a useless, bundle of nerves with poor/inhumane training. Every dog is an individual, and a great trainer can read the subtle differences in temperment and drive, and work to bring out the best or determine if this dog would be better placed somewhere else. 

A great police dog requires so much responsibility, breeding, training, and handling. The whole is more then just a sum of the parts. If one part fails, then the whole fails. Who gets the blame? Sadly, most times, the dog.

German Shepherd or Malinois? Nope - Great breeder - trainer - handler!


----------



## DFrost

pache11 said:


> A great police dog requires so much responsibility, breeding, training, and handling. The whole is more then just a sum of the parts. If one part fails, then the whole fails. Who gets the blame? Sadly, most times, the dog.
> 
> German Shepherd or Malinois? Nope - Great breeder - trainer - handler!


While that is absolutely true, most police trainers don't buy puppies. they buy adult dogs. Puppies are a crapshoot, regardless of the breeding. While it's true better breeding creates better puppies, it's still no assurance that a puppy will make a good police dog. The larger departments select adults. That way the testing gives better results. In additon, the physical and xrays will be more revealing than in a puppy. Some vendors do have a breeding program and raise puppies, but even they will admit, it's not 100% with their puppies. I also agree, it's in the selection, not the breed. 


DFrost


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## K9Rambo

We work both @ my department. I prefer GSD's because they seem to think a little more in my opinion but we have some awesome mals as well. Its whatever the handler prefers. I will say that mals are tough on first time handlers. Both breeds are amazing and as long the job gets done that's all that matters at the end of the day!!!

p.s. Here's my boy!!!


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## carmspack

coming in late to this discussion. What psdontario "mike" says about the rcmp removing mals from service is true. I knew this some years before the information was shared with Mike as I put a lot of dogs into that service - graduate and certified in addition to civilian owned , but rcmp certified SAR dogs. I had a very good working relation with one of the Dog Masters. I always took it as an "oh yeah" challenge to make GSD so good that no one need look at Mals. There was a tsunami of Mals flooding into the sport and work fields --. There was real competition to get dogs considered. A French ring trainer tried to infiltrate the working k9 corps . Metro Toronto HAD malinois , I don't believe they have any now. The story that Mike relayed was part of a conversation I had with the Dog Master - he said Mal's were dying on the track, I laughed , I thought they were flagging, loosing steam , and he corrected me and made it clear that they were former, deceased, no longer , dead - Monty Python dead parrot. Oh.  
Excercise induced collapse is a metabolic problem where the dog can not thermo regulate and has a heat stroke. It has nothing to do with training.

Mrs K a dog that bites his handler is not a hard dog .

Canadian Police trainers deserve respect. Many of them train for US depts. and many such as Rob Wright train , certify, and give seminars in the US . 
There is a governing association USPCA which Canadian forces are members of.
The difference in some jurisdictions has to do with the unique law enforcement situation that the country presents.
The USA has the entire population of Canada in one State, California.
We have huge and vast areas that are sparsely populated, most rural - that is where Provincial police have jurisdiction and select for dogs that are expert tracking dogs . A huge chunk of the work is just in finding the guy. There are dogs searching out grow ops , armed camps . 
British Columbia is served by RCMP and municipal police . BC could well stand for Biker Country - lots of biker drug activity.

Then we have our city, municipal police which uses more of the apprehend , control situation style.

In the video clip each apprehension was made with the bad guy running (in sight) or by a vehicle (in sight) . Not much search. Release and apprehend. Urban use .

I loved the video, made me very proud to be a part of it .

Did you see the bad guy by the vehicle grab the dog , pull it off his leg and swing it around a bit and the scramble into the car with the dog getting him in the buttocks.
hahaha . Try that on a schutzhund only dog or the show lines that are sporting schutzhund titles.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wilbanks17

Modesty is definitely not a quality of some on this forum.


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## carmspack

comments made with experience to validate the comments. not creative writing excercise. 
you also said elsewhere in the cheap dog thread , why go to a breeder that knows everything . I ask why play the lottery and go to a breeder that knows nothing, nuthing I say.
Carmen
http://www.carmspack


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## carmspack

question. The video was very impressive but is the representation realistic . I think it would make more sense to have the dog stay on the ground and run around the vehicle to grab the guy, who would be distracted by l/e activity playing out in front of him. He wouldn't know the direction or timing of the dog so would be caught off guard. Plus the dog wouldn't be a target .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Hunther's Dad

CassandGunnar said:


> This video makes a good case for either breed. I'm surprised I haven't seen it posted here before. I love it.
> 
> YouTube - BAD COMPANY: Police K-9 Edition


OUT------STANDING! What a video to watch after just getting back from Schutzhund training!

This video has my all-time favorite police dog hit at 3:29.


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## JakodaCD OA

I LOVE that video


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## NancyJ

I am on a team that does not allow bite trained dogs to participate in SAR. It is not ignorance and, as a matter of fact, some of the leaderhsip of our team and a nearby team does Schutzhund and ASR - just not with their SAR dogs.

The reasons are (1) If an incident happens - and it can with even the best dog out there under the right circumstances - the team could go 'under' if it ever came out due to public perception and the field day the news agencies could have with it (2) it is not needed for the work and the training time is better spent doing scent training. - We definitely prefer team dogs to be dedicated to their job and not everything under the sun. Don't want to go down the argument route but just saying that is why WE do it that way.

The only comment I have on police dogs is that I believe it is an incorrect assumption to think they are *all* certified to some standard. As I understand, membership and participation in certifying agencies may or may not be required by a state or municipality department etc......

I have no experience with bite dogs so it would be wrong to speculate on the relative strenghts of the various breeds, but have observed though some folks I have met who went the Mal route going back to GSDs and now Dutchies....and some are getting out of dogs altogether.


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## GSDBESTK9

crackem said:


> I think people "think" too much and talk too much. I have never seen a good mal do something a good Shepherd couldn't do or vice versa. There are plenty of good and plenty of crapper dogs. Find a dog you like and get it. There isn't a whole lot more to it.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:



hunterisgreat said:


> I know a mal is better suited for searching a car on the side of the road simply b/c of size.. also do a lot better than a gsd in say.. south florida heat


I'm sorry but I think that is untrue. I have seen plenty of Malis that are HUGE, even bigger than most of the GSDs in our club and definitely bigger than our own GSDs.

I've also seen Mals with crappy nerves and Mals with healths issues.

You just have to find the RIGHT dog, whether it is a GSD or a Mal.


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## holland

There was a news story years ago while I was in Canada about them switching to mals and the reason that they were doing it at that time was health


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## ladylaw203

jocoyn said:


> I am on a team that does not allow bite trained dogs to participate in SAR. It is not ignorance and, as a matter of fact, some of the leaderhsip of our team and a nearby team does Schutzhund and ASR - just not with their SAR dogs.
> 
> .


 That is just CYA. A total sport dog also doing SAR is just not a problem. I do it. Many sport dogs are not civil. Police service dogs had better be civil. 
THe fact that they want to have those rules are fine. Just not necessary although it depends on the dog,the handler and the trainer of the dog which presents a lot of variables.. Easier to just make those rules


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## carmspack

Nancy in Canada all dogs must be trained and certified by a qualified , appointed , trainer and certifier , and must go for an annual recertification - with brush up training if needed. That is what I know and understand. When I offer a dog for service I guarantee certification. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jessiewessie99

I got a question for Mal owners: Are Mals as hard to handle or too much dog as some people make them to be?


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## DFrost

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I got a question for Mal owners: Are Mals as hard to handle or too much dog as some people make them to be?


Any dog can be too much for some people to handle. I've not found Mals any more or less so. 

DFrost


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## ladylaw203

carmspack said:


> Nancy in Canada all dogs must be trained and certified by a qualified , appointed , trainer and certifier , and must go for an annual recertification - with brush up training if needed. That is what I know and understand. When I offer a dog for service I guarantee certification.


 
That is Canada I guess. Not true in all states here. Most large departments require annual certification with one of the major police service dogs orgs in all fields of endeavor. Most vendors here guarantee that the dog will pass one of the major orgs certs. Problem is that a certification is a MINIMUM set of standards and is not necessarily indicative the dog's total operational status. I am a certifying official for the largest org. I fail dogs all of the time. They have 30 days to fix their dog and come back. There is no state law requiring it however.


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## Dr. Teeth

This is an opinion.

Coming from the biting end of Mals, dutch, and shepherds. The Mals and Dutch seemed a little small to do a serious takedown on me. Most of the the shepherds had more power and bite. That being said, the biggest isn't always the best, and if a Mal or Dutch can provide just enough to be effective I could see people being attracated to those qualities. I think the popularity has to do with people rethinking what they need and seeing the qualities of the Mal and Dutch. 

Just read a post about the dogs dealing with heat. Most service dogs that die in the line of duty expire from heat exhaustion. That could be big deal if the Mal and dutch are better with this.


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## Lexi

Argh! I just found this thread and don't have the time to read it right now. Gonna bookmark it for later. I don't know that I'll have much to add right now, but may in the coming months. DH is going to the Tom Rose School for professional dog trainers and has both a GSD pup and Belgian Malinois pup for his training dogs. Hopes are to make one if not both working police K9s, but we'll see. One may be kept as his demo dog/competition/sport dog for any future business he will start and to get his name out there in the dog training world.

So far, the GSD is more advanced (as in he is the older of the two pups and has been training longer) and is excelling at obedience and tracking (probably the best pup in the whole class at tracking; Havok - the GSD - also got his CGC when he was only 7 weeks old and after being in class for a week using only clicker training/positive methods). But our 9 week old Belgian Malinois has some amazing drives...out of this world. Both pups are extremely social and loving, but the Mali is super lovey dovey and a cuddle bug. With all the horror stories of the "dreaded Mals" I wasn't expecting that. Maybe I didn't give the breed a fair shake since I'm predisposed to automatically like GSDs better, lol! 

I have noticed that there is a trend (by what my DH has said in reference to casual conversation around the school) to seem to want the smaller Mals as narcotics dogs. One girl in the advanced dog training class has a VERY small for the standard female Belgian Malinois and there are people constantly harrassing her to sell the dog because she has some really great drives and is the (according to them) "perfect size for a drug dog." Anyway, gonna shut up now until I have time to actually read the whole thread and see if I have anything of value to contribute to it (I may have some questions myself). 

And for the record, the GSD is my number 1 favorite breed still (generally speaking).


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## NancyJ

Dr. Teeth said:


> This is an opinion.
> 
> Just read a post about the dogs dealing with heat. Most service dogs that die in the line of duty expire from heat exhaustion. That could be big deal if the Mal and dutch are better with this.


You know, all things being equal I would think a smaller leaner dog *should* be more heat tolerant but so much of it is also acclimitazation. I have an LEO friend who runs a 130lb bloodhound that is all muscle and has had 4 arrests this past year. This dog works at a RUN - but it also lives outside in the heat.

I also knew a Malinois that died from heat but it was allowed to gain weight and drop its conditioning. There are certainly GSDs working in Iraq and Afghanistan but I bet Renee would have some real insight on the question being in South Texas and fielding the cadaver dogs for the Middle East.

I know SAR stuff won't relate because we work the dogs in the heat but we will break and cool a dog before it overheats and I don't guess you can't do that with a criminal pursuit.

I wonder because so many police dogs are kept in cars with the AC running all the time........


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## DFrost

Dr. Teeth said:


> This is an opinion.
> 
> Coming from the biting end of Mals, dutch, and shepherds. The Mals and Dutch seemed a little small to do a serious takedown on me. Most of the the shepherds had more power and bite. That being said, the biggest isn't always the best, and if a Mal or Dutch can provide just enough to be effective I could see people being attracated to those qualities. I think the popularity has to do with people rethinking what they need and seeing the qualities of the Mal and Dutch.
> 
> Just read a post about the dogs dealing with heat. Most service dogs that die in the line of duty expire from heat exhaustion. That could be big deal if the Mal and dutch are better with this.


No offense, but your comment suggests you have relatively few experiences catching a good Mal. Kind of like comparing being hit by a .45 or a .223, you want the damage slow or fast. Comparing the bite of different dogs, beyond sinking the teeth to the gums and not releasing under pressure, is nothing more than my than the old school argument of my dad can beat up your dad. I just finished a class, March 18, 2011. That class had 2 GSD's, 2 Mals and Dutchies. It would be hard to keep on your feet at a 40 yard running away bite, for anyone but the most experienced decoy. If I can figure out how, I'll post a picture of that class. Dogs I know, when it comes to computers, I'm nearly illiterate. 

DFrost


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## BlackPuppy

Lexi said:


> Havok - the GSD - also got his CGC when he was only 7 weeks old and after being in class for a week using only clicker training/positive methods).


I hope this is a typo.


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## ladylaw203

Oh trust me Mals and Dutchies can take ya down. Pocket rockets. Go to a police service dog certification or watch KNPV or French Ring Sport


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## ladylaw203

Over the years,we have found that the small Mals,Dutchies,Labs,smaller GSDs are better for scent detection work. More agile working highway drug interdiction working in ,over,under vehicles etc. High drive. Have to get one with solid nerves. I have two that are bomb dogs. I love the GSDs but the larger ones do lose some agility. I have a GSD that is a narc dog that is just too big for some searches. I have a smaller GSD that is as agile as my Mals. Works rubble and collapsed structure with no problem. Just depends on the dog 
Pretty much use what works overseas. Military has everything. The smaller dogs are easier however in the blackhawks,MRAPS etc because they just take up less room. 

Heat is a problem over there and the heat AND humidity is horrible here. I always take weight off of my working dogs going into summer.

Overseas, depending on the mission, the vets inject saline solution under the skin and raise fluid bubbles over their hips and shoulders. It is working. Dehydration is something to watch over there.


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## sirius

I personally prefer GSD's 

This Dutch Shepherd and Malinios look like they have some pretty good bitework, though the video's not new.


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## JanaeUlva

Bad Company K9 version video
All I can say is SWEET! 
Thanks for posting. I love watching working dogs WORK! 
I hope there is such thing as reincarnation so I can get a second chance at a career as a canine handler instead of a web designer


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