# Please help....euth appointment at 4:45pm today



## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Hi. Please no judging. I am devastated but need to know I am doing the right thing or if there are other options. Brief synopsis:

I have a 3 1/2 year old GSD. Very well bred (3/4WGW, 1/4 Czech). I got her at 19 months old and she had been in a kennel with very little socialization prior to me getting her, though she had had training with a private trainer who came to her kennel to train her. I get her at 19 months and she has never seen stairs, she's freaked out by them, but other than that she's environmentally sound-- vacuums, loud noises, things like that don't startle or bother her. Only I and my immediate family can pet her, though. I *can* hand her off to a groomer or the vet and they can walk away with her with no issues. 

She's always been super reactive to men (except my husband for some reason). I mean she charges them very, very aggressively, hackles up, ears pinned, tail tucked-- to me that says fear and insecurity. I was hoping I could socialize and train this out of her. Fast forward almost 2 years. I have put a BH on her (barely), but outside of her comfort zone (which is me home alone with her), she is very, very anxious. She's wound tight as a drum. I can take her anywhere and she will behave and listen to me but if someone approaches her and wants to pet, she will either lunge at them or growl and bark. I correct her, but .... the issue hasn't resolved. I have rehabilitated dogs before. It does take a long time with a very damaged dog....but I have an appointment today to have my girl euthanized. Here's why--

last night she attacked my 3 1/2 month old puppy because the puppy was too close to me. My young son and chihuahua were right there and could have been injured as well, but weren't thank goodness. Jetta struck like a rattlesnake. No warning growl, nothing. Prior to that yesterday, my stepdaughter was here (she's a college student and doesn't live here anymore, but she just moved out a few months ago and Jetta knows her well). Anyway, we had all been watching TV (me, stepdaughter, young son and 3 of the dogs-- Jetta amd my 2 chihuahuas). After about 45 mins, my stepdaughter walked up the stairs (short flight of 6 stairs) to grab her sweatshirt and as she was walking back down the stairs, Jetta charged her. It's like she forget who she was in that 30 seconds. The night prior, I went to pick up my husband (he's a truck driver) and I usually bring Jetta to the truck lot with me. She's very familiar with it and she has never barked at my husband. Well, when she saw him, she tried going through the truck window at him. He said -- hey, it's me and petted her, then went back to his semi to check the door and walked back (gone maybe 30 seconds) and she tried going through the window again. Last week she charged me for the first time-- but as soon as she realized it was me, she stopped and loved on me and was very submissive. 

Also, every single time my ex husband comes over to pick up our son (which is about 3 times a week, and we are really good friends, no animosity between us at all), Jetta frantically charges him, and instead of slowly getting used to him and getting better with him, she is getting worse. 

Same thing with my 25 year old stepson. Every single time he visits. And every time my 17 year old son comes home from school or work, she is instantly reactive and charges him. She has never made contact, and she crouches and submits when he says "hey, it's me", but this dog is just a mess, I guess,

What is so heartbreaking is that at night she sleeps in my room. In her own bed, but in my room. It's just me and her. And she finally relaxes, It's the only time she is ever relaxed, for the most part. And I can't live my life alone in my room with her. 

She's almost always been good with the other dogs. I've never considered her dog aggressive at all. She's been great with my corso and 2 chihuahuas and my neighbor's Ibizan Hound. However, in the past 6 months, she's become much more dog aggressive, growling at the other dogs, resource guarding (me being a main resource) and she doesn't respond to correction at all. 

Additionally, she started staring obsessively at the ceiling, walls, reflecting lights. I mean OBSESSIVELY. She also clacks her teeth. I'm not sure how else to describe it. Any time she's stressed (which is almost all the time), she clacks her teeth, snaps her mouth together. Not in a way where she's trying to bite anything, just like a nervous twitch or something. The ceiling staring and teeth clacking have progressed with the aggression.

At this point, I truly believe it is not a lack of socialization issue as I had previously excused everything as-- because I have trained and socialized the **** out of her. I really think there is something neurological going on-- brain tumor, or something.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? Do you agree that putting her down is the safest thing to do. At this point, she's no longer a dog I can train to behave, she's a dog that has to be managed like a wild lion. And I just can't have that in my home. And she doesn't seem very happy 

Please help with words of advice or just to acknowledge that I'm doing the right thing. She's a young, vibrant, gorgeous, well bred dog and I am just heartbroken that I am going to have her killed today :help::help:

Carey


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

Carey, my heart is breaking for you. I can't tell you one way or the other that your decision is right or wrong, you know in your heart what is right for you and your dog. I can imagine how much you are hurting right now, and it sounds like your dog is hurting too. Has your club trainer given any advice on this?

I have never been in this situation so I have no advice to offer you, but I know your heart must be breaking....I want you to know I will have you in my thoughts and prayers today.


Tina


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Have you ruled out anything medical? I personally would go that route first, because it can be as simple as medication. I think lots of people go that route before making a final decision.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I went through the same thing with my first Shepherd. He would have these mini seizures and it was followed by panic. He was dangerous and not a dog that was enjoying life at all. You aren't killing her Carey. Your ending her suffering if she's like mine was.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

As tough as it is, it sounds like you are making the right decision for you and your family. The dog is not happy and your life is constant stress managing her to make sure she doesn't hurt anyone 

You did more for her than many other people would do and reading your story is heartbreaking. 

So sorry you are having to deal with this :hug:


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Thank you very much.


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Rosy831 said:


> Carey, my heart is breaking for you. I can't tell you one way or the other that your decision is right or wrong, you know in your heart what is right for you and your dog. I can imagine how much you are hurting right now, and it sounds like your dog is hurting too. Has your club trainer given any advice on this?
> 
> I have never been in this situation so I have no advice to offer you, but I know your heart must be breaking....I want you to know I will have you in my thoughts and prayers today.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. I really appreciate it.


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Have you ruled out anything medical? I personally would go that route first, because it can be as simple as medication. I think lots of people go that route before making a final decision.


Yes, she's had the usual bloodwork and physical workup, but I cannot afford an MRI or CT scan. Everything has been normal.


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## Solo93 (Feb 16, 2016)

Sent you a PM. That's really a tough call. :-(


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm really sorry, such an unfair situation for all involved. If it helps any, I don't think that more socialization will make a difference to this dog. As Steve and others have said, there seems to be some wires crossed in her brain, and is dangerous. My concern here is that it wasn't one or two isolated incidents, but it is becoming an increasing behavioural pattern. With all the work you put into her, she should be getting better, not worse. 

So sorry.


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm really sorry, such an unfair situation for all involved. If it helps any, I don't think that more socialization will make a difference to this dog. As Steve and others have said, there seems to be some wires crossed in her brain, and is dangerous. My concern here is that it wasn't one or two isolated incidents, but it is becoming an increasing behavioural pattern. With all the work you put into her, she should be getting better, not worse.
> 
> So sorry.


This helps to hear-- I have the same conclusion. She can't be trained, she'd have to be managed and I just don't have a set up for that (my dogs all live in my home with me, I don't have a kennel set up, nor would she be happy in one, she'd be miserable). 

Carey


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Have you tried medication- just as a last chance. Is she aggressive with people? Is it possible for her to be rehomed in a pet free home. What does your trainer think. Im sorry about these circumstances this must be very difficult decsion to make. Sometimes dogs are just not wired right


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

She charges people but has not actually bitten-- yet. She is a huge liability


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I have been there with a very similar situation. We made the same position you did, to euthanize her. She was a smart intelligent girl but anything out of her ordinary routine would send her into a tail spin. 
I mean, if she came in and one of the kitchen chairs was pulled out from the table, she would have a panic attack so bad that she would release her anal glands. Push the chair back in and she would take 30 minutes to work up the courage to enter the room and investigate. 
We couldn't walk her through the neighborhood on garbage days - all those cans out by the road sent her into an almost catatonic state. 
She was the same way with strangers and socializing her only gave her the courage to "defend" herself vs just shutting down completely. She would charge anyone or anything as soon as their back was turned. 
In the end, it was best for her. Rehoming would be a huge liability. She'd need a home with a single woman who never had friends or family visit, never had to take her out of the house for exercise and basically lived like a hermit.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Strength to you during this difficult time. You know in your heart whatever you need to do..


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Sorry to hear about your situation.

Like others have said, dog might not be wired right. I think of it this way, the brain is an organ and it isn't functioning properly. The end result is the dog isn't comfortable and has a reduced quality of life. If medication can't help then euthanasia is the kindest thing you can do. It's no different than a failing heart or liver.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sorry to hear about your dog and I do understand how this dog may not be a good fit for your home.

Have you tried medication or another trainer? 

Have you even tried to find an appropriate home for her? I am not saying you are not a good home by any means, but not every lid fits every pot.

I will be the bad guy here. This is the only place you are going to come to that you will find such a large gathering of people that collectively believe that sooooooo many German Shepherds could be "not wired right". If you hear it as told on here, there are more German Shepherds suffering from "not being wired right" than they are from hip dysplasia. Nowhere have I ever seen where "not being wired right" was a genetic problem prevalent in this breed and nowhere have I seen any other breed afflicted with so many suffering from the same condition. Yeah, sure it happens, but it is not the common every day occurrence that some would have you believe.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

workingk9_Ohio said:


> She charges people but has not actually bitten-- yet. She is a huge liability


The fact the dog has not bitten anyone is a leaves me to think there may be hope- im no means a trainer or have personal experience in this matter. Could be a possible chemical imbalance- wired wrong- where medication may be helpful. I think there is prozac for dogs but better discussed with a trainer,behaviorist and vet.There must be lots of stress and tension i could imagine in the home from preventing your dog from attacking your other dogs. I would think this would possibly exasperate your dogs behavior/issues. Rehoming in a home without pets in ideal situation may give your dog a chance. It is a thought possibly discussed with a professional.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

workingk9_Ohio said:


> Hi. Please no judging. I am devastated but need to know I am doing the right thing or if there are other options. Brief synopsis:
> 
> I have a 3 1/2 year old GSD. Very well bred (3/4WGW, 1/4 Czech). I got her at 19 months old and she had been in a kennel with very little socialization prior to me getting her, though she had had training with a private trainer who came to her kennel to train her. I get her at 19 months and she has never seen stairs, she's freaked out by them, but other than that she's environmentally sound-- vacuums, loud noises, things like that don't startle or bother her. Only I and my immediate family can pet her, though. I *can* hand her off to a groomer or the vet and they can walk away with her with no issues.
> 
> ...


Have you ever tried any anti anxiety medications? This worked wonders for a friend of mines dog completely relaxed and changed her. You could even possibly wean her off eventually...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear of your problems with Jetta ......I immediately recognized/remembered your initial postings of when you got her.''

I do not think medication would help her. I think that you are being absolutely totally realistic and responsible given the issues and the behavior she is exhibiting. Given the escalation of aggression, as well as the teeth clacking and watching reflections, I also am suspicious that there IS something neurological playing into her issues.....and that on top of my read of her pedigree makes me support your decision....strongly.

People get angry at me at times for insisting that genetics is the root of many problems. Breeding, training and upbringing are too often done without a deep basis of knowledge......big names in a pedigree are all that people see and think that this is wonderful without knowing anything about those big names. I remember this dog and thought she might have some very hard core aggression and not be the best candidate for a family dog. Now, at 3.5 years old the path she is on is not a good one and to rehome her would be irresponsible....yes, someone else MIGHT be able to work with her, or someone else would throw her in a kennel run and breed the heck out of her.....It is my firm belief that this dog is not suitable for your needs, and is indeed dangerous in your situation. I think it would be a huge liability to "rehome" her at this point, and that as much as it hurts and as good as she has been with you personally, euthanizing her is the most responsible thing you can do. Passing her on would be a huge huge risk.....

I am so sorry - for Jetta and for you.


Lee


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

I also think at least attempting to work with another trainer, medication and finding a home better suited to Jetta's challenges would be preferable than to euthanize her. 

As long as you thoroughly disclose, as you have here, the behaviors she's exhibiting there is no liability. The key of course is thoroughly disclosing the behaviors so that her new owner is taking her fully understanding the challenges and risks involved.

It could be that a home with less traffic and no other dogs might do wonders. I wonder too, that a neurological defect is being assumed, even though there is no evidentiary basis for it, as of now. 

It seems a shame for her to be put down while these other options remain unexplored.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The staring at lights and teeth clacking IS a (subtle) neurological behavior.....I watched one dog progress through this to full blown seizures....his owner thought it cute to exercise him with a laser pointer.....he put him down before he turned 3 as the seizures progressed.


Lee


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sorry to hear about your dog and I do understand how this dog may not be a good fit for your home.
> 
> Have you tried medication or another trainer?
> 
> ...



there is a big problem with trying to rehome a dog with issues like these. You (the original owner) can be found liable for things that the dog does in the new home. So you are putting yourself in the position of paying for another person's carelessness because you KNOW that the dog has issues. 
That is why it's next to impossible to find a rescue who will take a dog with a bite history.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> *The staring at lights and teeth clacking IS a (subtle) neurological behavior*.....I watched one dog progress through this to full blown seizures....his owner thought it cute to exercise him with a laser pointer.....he put him down before he turned 3 as the seizures progressed.
> 
> 
> Lee


Could be but not necessarily so. I absolutely believe that the dog you were familiar with had these behaviors and suffered seizures. But it is not the case that every dog that exhibits these behaviors suffers from a neurological disorder or tumor affecting neurological function.

I knew one dog that did the teeth clacking thing for attention; demanding to go out, demanding a treat, etc. in other words, demanding attention. That was a spoiled family pet who lived a long healthy life. No neurological disorder/tumor.

My boy will 'hunt' lights if allowed to, too. He doesn't have a neurological disorder/tumor.

I'm not disagreeing that these behaviors could be signs of a neurological problem, I'm only saying they're not dispositive of one.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dainerra said:


> there is a big problem with trying to rehome a dog with issues like these. You (the original owner) can be found liable for things that the dog does in the new home. So you are putting yourself in the position of paying for another person's carelessness because you KNOW that the dog has issues.
> That is why it's next to impossible to find a rescue who will take a dog with a bite history.


I was not suggesting a rescue. I was suggesting a compatible private home. If I didn't have two bitches already in the house, my own living circumstances would mesh very well with this dog. There are capable homes out there that don't have a need for their dogs to come in contact with lots of people and not all people feel a need to have their dogs interact with guests who are few and far in between.

Now if this dog is having seizures that are progressing, then maybe the kindest thing to do would be to euthanize AND to contact the breeder to inform them of the issues. Then again, without backtracking, has the breeder to this dog been contacted already?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

viking said:


> Could be but not necessarily so. I absolutely believe that the dog you were familiar with had these behaviors and suffered seizures. But it is not the case that every dog that exhibits these behaviors suffers from a neurological disorder or tumor affecting neurological function.
> 
> I knew one dog that did the teeth clacking thing for attention; demanding to go out, demanding a treat, etc. in other words, demanding attention. That was a spoiled family pet who lived a long healthy life. No neurological disorder/tumor.
> 
> ...


My eldest dog would dig a hole to China for the red dot if I let him. I did not know back them about the dangers of playing with laser beams with dogs. Regardless, he is one of the most stable, mentally and emotionally sound dogs I have ever owned.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Since this is a well-bred dog, what does your breeder have to say about these issues? 

Is there any chance the breeder would take back the dog and might have sufficient experience to get to the bottom of the cause (medical/neurological/etc.)? Perhaps its something that's popped up in other dogs the breeder knows and/or bred, and you can at least get guidance on prognosis.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

workingk9 ohio-

We may have a solution for your circumstances. An experienced GSD , law enforcement home may be able to take Jetta. Transportation is available. Please hold off on the euthanizing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - You know this dog best. I'm very sorry you are in this situation. Sorry for you and for Jetta. Sometimes they are just broken and the kindest thing to do is let them go. My thoughts are with you.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I was not suggesting a rescue. I was suggesting a compatible private home. If I didn't have two bitches already in the house, my own living circumstances would mesh very well with this dog. There are capable homes out there that don't have a need for their dogs to come in contact with lots of people and not all people feel a need to have their dogs interact with guests who are few and far in between.
> ?


my point is that if you, as a private owner, rehome a dog with issues such as these to another private home and the dog bites someone YOU could be sued. 

it's not a risk that everyone can take. Also, with a dog that isn't good with strangers, rehoming them can be incredibly stressful.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dainerra said:


> my point is that if you, as a private owner, rehome a dog with issues such as these to another private home and the dog bites someone YOU could be sued.
> 
> it's not a risk that everyone can take. Also, with a dog that isn't good with strangers, rehoming them can be incredibly stressful.


From a personal stance, I have owned aggressive GSDs, and other breeds, almost all of my life, never had an inappropriate bite. Depending on your life style, an aggressive dog can be quite easy to manage and control. Liability is always an issue, whether you are the original owner or not, but you don't see that stop shelters from churning dogs with bite histories back into the hands of JQP without a second thought, and not being held liable when the dog bites again despite withholding the bite history.

Rehoming dogs that are not good with strangers is done all the times, many times over. Breeders buy and sell adult dogs for their programs, private owners buy titled dogs, many of which are not good with strangers. It can be, and is, done routinely. I know many, many people who have bought dogs that can only be handled by their owners.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well if the dog is to be "PTS" there is not really much to say ... although I will. I'd be hard pressed to put a dog down if there is not something "neurologically "wrong with them myself, I'd think well it must be me??

And I can say first hand bringing a GSD into a "Pack" can be fraught with "issues." Crate, Place and no Free Roaming in the house can help prevent a lot of those "out of the blue lighting Strikes!" That would have worked much better for me than my "I dare you to try it approach!!" 

Near as I can tell?? The dog has not bitten anyone?? Usually that is why people put dogs down I thought?? Exposure vs Socialization, is how I roll, to this day no one gets near my dog, without going through me! My by word is "control" and yep I'm "apparently" over the top in being anal retentive?? 

If the dog "is" medically sound ... the possibility does exist that there is "someone" out there with the right home stitution willing to take on a basket case, full disclosure?? If not yeah there is always Plan B:

Plan B - Kill the Dog!


Sorry it did not work out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog is likely put down already. If so, I think the owner made the correct choice. It is always hard to do, especially with a young dog, but it doesn't mean it is wrong.

The owner cannot with conscience rehome a dog like this. The problems are too many, and to serious. Also, the dog will have too much trouble adjusting to the new situation. It sounds like the problems are progressive, and changing homes with a dog like this is likely to be bad if you found anyone willing to take on a dog like this. 

It is like me finding someone: Has to LOVE dogs, and have NO dogs." The person that would take on a dog like this would have to have tons of experience, and bottomless love for dogs, but not have a dog. And, I am sorry, but a lot of experienced dog people aren't looking for another project. Maybe they want a dog they can relax and let their guard down with. But you don't just have to have someone who says they are experienced with this sort of thing, and has no other dogs, you have to believe what they are saying is so. Trust me, sometimes you love that dog so much that you are going to believe more than what is apparent too. So now you have to also trust that you aren't being blinkered.

No. There are a million dogs being put down just because there is no space for them. Time to let a dog that is not comfortable and not safe down so that it doesn't end up biting people and doing serious damage. 

It's still hard. But it is the right thing to do. In fact, I am not sure putting yourself in the red, chasing down every medical possibility is necessary either. The dog is not in a comfortable place, the family is at risk. The answer is not simple, but clear.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> From a personal stance, I have owned aggressive GSDs, and other breeds, almost all of my life, never had an inappropriate bite. Depending on your life style, an aggressive dog can be quite easy to manage and control. Liability is always an issue, whether you are the original owner or not, but you don't see that stop shelters from churning dogs with bite histories back into the hands of JQP without a second thought, and not being held liable when the dog bites again despite withholding the bite history.
> 
> Rehoming dogs that are not good with strangers is done all the times, many times over. Breeders buy and sell adult dogs for their programs, private owners buy titled dogs, many of which are not good with strangers. It can be, and is, done routinely. I know many, many people who have bought dogs that can only be handled by their owners.


Actually, most shelters will not even take a dog with a bite history. Sorry to burst your bubble on that, but they will turn you down cold if you tell them the dog has bitten someone. So people lie. And that is worse than putting the dog down.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Actually, most shelters will not even take a dog with a bite history. Sorry to burst your bubble on that, but they will turn you down cold if you tell them the dog has bitten someone. So people lie. And that is worse than putting the dog down.


Depends on the shelter. A lot of shelters also pimp out dogs that have failed the shelter's own behavioral tests rather than PTS. It is a much bigger problem than many would suspect.

A local kill shelter near me just came under fire because the new director was enforcing that dogs that failed temperament tests be PTS. Shelter workers and volunteers complained and did their best to put a stop to this and were successful as the director resigned.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

everything selzer said!

moving forward, please, before commenting, be sensitive to the fact that it's after 4:45pm...

my thoughts are with this owner!


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## misfits (Jan 13, 2011)

Just wanted to offer sympathies to the OP. I was in the same situation, until you've been there you can't know how hard it is! It's way too easy to be an armchair quarterback on the internet....


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

misfits said:


> Just wanted to offer sympathies to the OP. I was in the same situation, until you've been there you can't know how hard it is! It's way too easy to be an armchair quarterback on the internet....


Yes,I agree. I am sorry the OP had to make such a difficult decision. We had to have one of our dogs PTS last week, after much tormenting back and forth discussions. It is so extremely hard!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Just wanted to comment we tried the medication route and it made our dog worse. I am sorry for your situation, but there are some dogs that just can't be fixed, management is the only option. I'm sure you made the best decision possible for your family.


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

*Sincere thanks*

First, I would like to say that I greatly appreciate all the feedback I was given. I did have a behaviorist come out and evaluate her yesterday and canceled the euth appointment. The behaviorist has given me much insight and some tools to use to work with Jetta and see if we are able to keep her in our family. If not, then I will know I did my very utmost. She is medically sound, short of what an MRI could reveal, I suppose. 

The behaviorist was actually quite impressed with how environmentally sound she is. She explained that she is simply a genetically shy dog and she has a very large personal comfort zone that, when penetrated, creates fear aggression in her. 

There are many amazing things about Jetta. She is 100% in tune with me and wants to do everything in her power to please me. I can take her *anywhere* and she never needs a collar or leash-- I take her mountain biking, hiking, running, etc and she stays RIGHT beside me, calming trotting along. She is not bothered by other people, cats, loose dogs, loud noises, buses, cars, car horns, anything. Nothing. She truly is 100% environmentally sound. Her issue is quite specific to being fear aggressive when she feels trapped (i.e. in my small home when a stranger enters and she feels she has no where to go to get away, hence she charges, then runs back to me; or when she is in the truck).

She is *not* people aggressive. She is fear-reactive and she will resource guard (truck, her bed, toys, me). She does not *want* to hurt people. She has never bitten or snapped at a human. She HAS charged quite aggressively, and I've no doubt that in the right (wrong) circumstance, a bite is very possible. She is most definitely a dog that will have to be managed. Henceforth, she will be crated any time we have company. I am also not currently allowing her and the puppy to be out at the same times. Perhaps when the puppy is older, we will see, but for now they will be kept separate.

The bite on the puppy was my fault, in hind sight. Jetta was on her bed in my office, puppy was approaching her, Jetta gave a warning lip curl/silent snarl (witnessed by my son), pup forged ahead and Jetta corrected her hard. One bite. She did not continue to attack the puppy. I'm not even sure what my OP said at this moment, as I wrote it in a state of panic and dismay and may have described things as "attacks" when, in reality, they were warnings that her personal space was being invaded. 

I have had some health issues over the past year and moreso in the past 6 months that have prevented me from giving her the exercise she is used to-- I have seen her behavior issues increase with the decrease in exercise so I am going to start exercising her more, as well, as my health and the weather allows.

Jetta is very comfortable when we are out hiking, biking, etc. Basically in wide open spaces where she doesn't feel she is trapped. She does NOT do well in stores, etc where I have taken her while trying to socialize the fear out of her (didn't work, obviously). 

The behaviorist who came and evaluated her is on this board and she is welcome to chime in with any further insights or comments (good or bad) if she so wishes. 

Again, I really appreciate everyone's comments, feedback, advice, and support. I especially appreciate Sue coming over right away and spending so much time with Jetta and our family. 

I will do everything in my power to reduce her stress/anxiety, increase her exercise, extend her life. 

If euthanasia ends up being the kindest choice, then that is what I will do. But I will give her a chance, do more things right, less things wrong, and in the end, no matter what happens, I will know that I have given it my all.

Carey


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Carey, 

Good for you. Seriously. It's tough to own up to our mistakes sometimes. 

I am glad Sue was able to give you better insight and you can see a light at the end of the tunnel. 

I hope that things get better, but if they don't, then you truly did what needed to be done and have it a good go. 

Good luck.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I give you lots of credit for going this extra mile. I hope it works out for everyone involved.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Jetta is lucky to have you.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

workingk9_Ohio said:


> First, I would like to say that I greatly appreciate all the feedback I was given. I did have a behaviorist come out and evaluate her yesterday and canceled the euth appointment. The behaviorist has given me much insight and some tools to use to work with Jetta and see if we are able to keep her in our family. If not, then I will know I did my very utmost. She is medically sound, short of what an MRI could reveal, I suppose.
> 
> The behaviorist was actually quite impressed with how environmentally sound she is. She explained that she is simply a genetically shy dog and she has a very large personal comfort zone that, when penetrated, creates fear aggression in her.
> 
> ...


Thank you for caring so much about her to try and find the best future for her regardless of how hard it will be. All options will always be stressful on you and you are a wonderful person for keeping all options in minds. Sometimes euthanasia is the kindest choice, but you are a great person to go the extra mile and try everything you can. Wishing you the best of futures with your whole (both fur and regular) family!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If exercise helps her so much, can you treadmill train her to cover gaps when westher is poor or your health not the best?

Are you/can you feed her out of kongs or puzzle toys to drain energy? (Have to guard against conflict with other dogs over food)
I
Is she crate trained so you could crate her when situations arise that she might be unpredictable?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I am so glad you are forging ahead together. I am routing for you guys.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Well I for one, am really relieved that the dog is still alive. Workingk9_Ohio, because you're not ruling euthanasia out altogether going forward, I hope you will reach out and let us know if you begin considering it again. With enough advanced warning, a suitable home for her could be made a certainty. I mean, we cobbled together a pretty good plan in less than 6 hours but more time would ensure long term, successful placement. I've watched the videos you posted of her - Jetta is a beautiful girl!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thank you Carey for be willing to work with Jetta. She is a good girl that reminds me of a couple of German Shepherds I have had in the past. They were the best. Workingline German Shepherds can need a tremendous amount of exercise, especially off leash, and a lack of exercise can cause a lot of problems to emerge. Many German Shepherds are dedicated to one person only, like your girl, and don't tolerate attention from others. Good luck with your girl!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Good for you! My gsd, Basu, was like this. I adopted him at age 4.5 and successfully rehabbed him but it took many years and lots and lots of structured and consistent training. He also did much better with several hours of daily exercise and he thrived on a consistent routine. 

Best of luck -- it absolutely can be done!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... this is certainly a change of events?? For the better I might add.  

Sooo trying again then, OK round two as it were! As it happens I to discovered with my first WL GSD he was uh ... not to fond of people??? American Band Dawgs, Boxer/APBT and Boxers were my thing and all mine Luv'd People! But 
Rocky, OS WL GSD ... "apparently" not so much??? No matter ,I made adjustments, I showed him what I wanted. I kept people out of his face, occasionally a hand out stretched but mostly I body blocked anyone that "looked" like they were going to approach??

So with "me" it was pretty clear that my dog was off limits. Rocky got that, and with him the only thing I demanded was that "he ought not to be acting like a fool!" I did not ask for Sits or Downs, nothing I stopped he stopped, he waited behind me for awhile and next to me after a bit of time, and after a bit he understood "I had his back!" Lots of one on one time spent "walking" and after awhile he understood I had his back! 

It turned out that what I was doing and still do is the Second link here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

I would also "suggest" that with this dog currently, she needs to get out of your bed for awhile. Any dog with behavioural "issues" should not be in the owner's bed. I would suggest "starting over" and for me that would be the first link in that same post.

And finally sigh ... "The Place Command and Sit on the Dog" things I do and the "Trainers" I link to do these things to "Rehab" dogs with as I like to say "Serious I will hurt you bad" issues.

"Place and Sit on the Dog" are all pretty much explained in this thread:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Start to do "Sit on the Dog" in public at some distance with distractions at some point, the only thing required of your dog ... is she do nothing! 

Train "Place" and in the home no more "crowding" have her in "Place" at some distance from you. In the home no more "Free Roaming" inside she should be in her Crate or in Place! The dog needs to learn to cope with doing ... nothing.

And since I have seen that sometimes people need numbers the goal for a solid "Place Command" would be two hours in "Place."

I used "Place" with Company myself "apparently" that's not the norm?? But I'm pretty hard core and anal so it worked fine for me. I had no problem having "Rocky" in "Place" and keeping family and friends out of his face! Had a lot of hurt butts on that one. 

But for most people, I guess just putting the dog in her Crate would be simpler. Still after showing her what you want and keeping people out of her face for a bit she should be less likely to go off on someone without warning.

Start "the above" as a rehab process and the next and first time she goes to lunge at someone it should be a slight but firm tug "sideways"and a firm "NO!" I expect my dogs or dogs I work with "Not" to be giving me grief and by and large they don't. Oh keep a drag leash on her in the house for a bit while training "Place" so you can guide her back if she moves. (A short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture) As I tend to say ... "out think your dog!"

And again I must say I'm surprised and delighted with the turn of events!


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Carey,
> 
> Good for you. Seriously. It's tough to own up to our mistakes sometimes.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I'm definitely not perfect and I will continue to learn as long as I live 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I give you lots of credit for going this extra mile. I hope it works out for everyone involved.


Thank you. I do, too 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Dotbat215 said:


> Jetta is lucky to have you.


I appreciate that. I'll definitely do my best. 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

wick said:


> Thank you for caring so much about her to try and find the best future for her regardless of how hard it will be. All options will always be stressful on you and you are a wonderful person for keeping all options in minds. Sometimes euthanasia is the kindest choice, but you are a great person to go the extra mile and try everything you can. Wishing you the best of futures with your whole (both fur and regular) family!


Thank you. She is just a wonderful dog...with me. I'm glad I didn't make a decision I couldn't reverse. I am quite hopeful that we will get things at least where she is happier and not as stressed. 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If exercise helps her so much, can you treadmill train her to cover gaps when westher is poor or your health not the best?
> 
> Are you/can you feed her out of kongs or puzzle toys to drain energy? (Have to guard against conflict with other dogs over food)
> I
> Is she crate trained so you could crate her when situations arise that she might be unpredictable?


I unfortunately don't have a treadmill anymore and she *only* wants to be with me so I'd have to be on the treadmill with her lol. She does have many different chew toys and kongs, etc, that I rotate for variety and to prevent boredom. All of my dogs are fed in their crates, separately  Definitely don't want any issues with food guarding, etc. She is crate trained and crating her (or putting her outside) when we have company is what we will be doing from now on.

Thanks for the suggestions 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> I am so glad you are forging ahead together. I am routing for you guys.


Thank you so much!

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

viking said:


> Well I for one, am really relieved that the dog is still alive. Workingk9_Ohio, because you're not ruling euthanasia out altogether going forward, I hope you will reach out and let us know if you begin considering it again. With enough advanced warning, a suitable home for her could be made a certainty. I mean, we cobbled together a pretty good plan in less than 6 hours but more time would ensure long term, successful placement. I've watched the videos you posted of her - Jetta is a beautiful girl!


Thank you. I'm not sure what you are referencing with getting a plan together in 6 hours or finding a successful placement. Did I miss something with that? (It's possible, I haven't been on here much!). 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Thank you Carey for be willing to work with Jetta. She is a good girl that reminds me of a couple of German Shepherds I have had in the past. They were the best. Workingline German Shepherds can need a tremendous amount of exercise, especially off leash, and a lack of exercise can cause a lot of problems to emerge. Many German Shepherds are dedicated to one person only, like your girl, and don't tolerate attention from others. Good luck with your girl!


Thanks  Admittedly, she is my first GSD, though not my first working dog, but I'm learning that these guys are a whole other beast. In good and bad ways ;-) I've never had a more devoted and willing dog ever. She definitely loves our mountain bike rides, runs, and hikes. I'm planning on doing a half marathon with her next month. She's definitely dedicated to me (and she's pretty fond my my youngest son, too 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

BowWowMeow said:


> Good for you! My gsd, Basu, was like this. I adopted him at age 4.5 and successfully rehabbed him but it took many years and lots and lots of structured and consistent training. He also did much better with several hours of daily exercise and he thrived on a consistent routine.
> 
> Best of luck -- it absolutely can be done!


Thank you. It helps to hear this. I'm learning that I was expecting too much from her and trying to train something out of her that I really just need to be managing. And we both definitely need more exercise ;-)

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... this is certainly a change of events?? For the better I might add.
> It turned out that what I was doing and still do is the Second link here:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the links and info. ***To clarify** she does not sleep in my bed, nor has she ever. I do not allow her on furniture of any type. She has a dog bed in my room that she sleeps in  I also have various beds and cots throughout the house. She does know the Place command and she will honor it, even when strangers come in-- her issue, though, is that my house is sufficiently small that there really is no "out of the way" place to put her on a "place" and her feel safe. She continues to hackle, growl, and bark at people from "place" which is why I will be crating her or putting her outside from here on out. 

We do practice "place" and she has held hers for up to 2-2 1/2 hours. I haven't practiced it recently, though, and need to do that more, so I really appreciate you reminding me of that! It did help when we did it more frequently. 

I've never heard of "sit on the dog" so I will go read about that now. 

Thanks again!!! I appreciate all the help!

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Chip18;7736274
And finally sigh ... "The Place Command and Sit on the Dog" things I do and the "Trainers" I link to do these things to "Rehab" dogs with as I like to say "Serious I will hurt you bad" issues.
"Place and Sit on the Dog" are all pretty much explained in this thread:
[url=http://www.boxerforums.com/training/183298-fearful-anxious-flat-crazy-place-command.html said:


> Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums[/url]


OK, just went and read about Sit on the Dog and had to chuckle.....she needs none of that. By that, I mean, she already naturally does it. She will sit at my feet for *hours* (I work from home). We sit out front (unleashed) and read-- again, for hours. People, dogs, cats, birds, squirrels all do not phase her. She wants nothing more than TO BE at my feet. NOTHING is more interesting to her. I can take her *anywhere* and she will wait patiently at my feet. She has always been that way. So, I guess she's got that going for her ;-) 

The thing we need to work on is her "place" with me out of sight. I had her doing really well-- as I said up to 2+ hours with me doing various things around the house (again, my house is small so I wasn't out of her sight the whole time, but off and on the whole time). I've tried putting her on Place in another room when strangers come over, but she will break Place to come to me to "protect" her. I will definitely start working those long Places again.

Carey


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

workingk9_Ohio said:


> OK, just went and read about Sit on the Dog and had to chuckle.....she needs none of that. By that, I mean, she already naturally does it. She will sit at my feet for *hours* (I work from home). We sit out front (unleashed) and read-- again, for hours. People, dogs, cats, birds, squirrels all do not phase her. She wants nothing more than TO BE at my feet. NOTHING is more interesting to her. I can take her *anywhere* and she will wait patiently at my feet. She has always been that way. So, I guess she's got that going for her ;-)
> 
> The thing we need to work on is her "place" with me out of sight. I had her doing really well-- as I said up to 2+ hours with me doing various things around the house (again, my house is small so I wasn't out of her sight the whole time, but off and on the whole time). I've tried putting her on Place in another room when strangers come over, but she will break Place to come to me to "protect" her. I will definitely start working those long Places again.
> 
> Carey


My mistake with the dog sleeping in the bed thing ... my bad, half read ...yet again. 

Hmm, interesting ... "often the with the "Sit on the Dog" thing there is some level of "protest" ... that's what I've heard and then the "Dog "settles down." Initially" I did not think ,breaking an out of sight "Place" was that big a deal??? But ... clearly the dog has bonded with you, may be *"over bonded"* if that is a thing??? 

When did the lunging and "stuff" start?? Top of my head ... I think yo missed the opportunity to should her .. this is not acceptable?? I don't think you needed to hammer down on her "hard" but a "message" should have been delivered .."now" your playing catch up.

You need to do a "reset" to let her know things have changed. I would look at the "I just got a rescue" link. Nothing is cast in stone, "Place" with company a "muzzle" and a few select friends that can actually help ... "friends" that won't try to engage the dog would be helpful.

The muzzle I used was one of these:
Best Fit Muzzle, Adjustable Dog Muzzle | Lambert Vet Supply


It's not a "real muzzle" and a dog can get it off if "allowed" the opportunity! And a dog can't pant properly with one in hot weather. Pretty much none of the "Pro's" would use one but I did with my "Bubble Dog" for awhile. 

But regardless of the type of muzzle a muzzle helps the dog to relax and the owner to feel more secure. Use a drag leash with the dog in the home to "guide her back into "Place" if she strays.


It sounds like the "out of site" Place may be the key to changes??


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> My mistake with the dog sleeping in the bed thing ... my bad, half read ...yet again.
> 
> Hmm, interesting ... "often the with the "Sit on the Dog" thing there is some level of "protest" ... that's what I've heard and then the "Dog "settles down." Initially" I did not think ,breaking an out of sight "Place" was that big a deal??? But ... clearly the dog has bonded with you, may be *"over bonded"* if that is a thing???
> 
> ...


We've been working the place again and doing them out of sight now. She is actually doing great! No more teeth clacking, much more relaxed in the home and around the new pup. 

I'd definitely say she's over bonded to me  My stepson is now home (one of the men she really dislikes) and she's not been *as bad* when he visits, but we are by no means "fixed". I would say she's about 20-30% better as far as the lunging at people in the house goes. We are making slow, steady progress with the reintroduction of Place, and doing more exercise. I still only allow supervised interaction between Jetta and Jynx (the pup), but things are going much better there. Jetta will be put on a Place and all the other dogs are allowed to play and roam around her and I think that has helped tremendously. Here's a pic from today! 

Thanks again for all your help!

Carey


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm glad things are getting better


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm late to this. I am still hoping I can get my dog Ninja tested.

But this book is worth a read:

http://www.amazon.com/Canine-Thyroi...d=1461978144&sr=8-1&keywords=dr+dodds+thyroid

I don't know if Ninja has a Thyroid issue, but he might. Yours is showing some of the indicators as well. If you can get the blood drawn and sent to Hemopet, the Thyroid panel isn't really too expensive.

Almost every vet I talk to tells me the same thing: "No, your dog doesn't have a thyroid problem. If he did, he would be lathargic and fat. That's what a thyroid problem does..."

But its not true. Many dogs with aggression issues were actually dogs that had thyroid issues. I've spoken with several owners who almost put their dog down, only to find that thyroid was the problem. I wouldn't trust anyone else to do the test, though. 

Don't know if this helps, but it is something else to try.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

workingk9_Ohio said:


> We've been working the place again and doing them out of sight now. She is actually doing great! No more teeth clacking, much more relaxed in the home and around the new pup.
> 
> I'd definitely say she's over bonded to me  My stepson is now home (one of the men she really dislikes) and she's not been *as bad* when he visits, but we are by no means "fixed". I would say she's about 20-30% better as far as the lunging at people in the house goes. We are making slow, steady progress with the reintroduction of Place, and doing more exercise. I still only allow supervised interaction between Jetta and Jynx (the pup), but things are going much better there. Jetta will be put on a Place and all the other dogs are allowed to play and roam around her and I think that has helped tremendously. Here's a pic from today!
> 
> ...


Hey thanks for the update ... I was wondering how it was going.

Have to say that the extra bone and the toy she has makes me a bit nervous. You want to be careful not to give her something "else" to "focus" on. 

Those are some nice looking Bully's are they APBT's are Pit Derivatives?? I went from Bully's and Boxers and added my first OS WL GSD ...yeah not the same! It was a bumpy ride but we got through it, worked out fine.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Hey thanks for the update ... I was wondering how it was going.
> 
> Have to say that the extra bone and the toy she has makes me a bit nervous. You want to be careful not to give her something "else" to "focus" on.
> 
> Those are some nice looking Bully's are they APBT's are Pit Derivatives?? I went from Bully's and Boxers and added my first OS WL GSD ...yeah not the same! It was a bumpy ride but we got through it, worked out fine.


I thought you were a bully man? Those were Cane Corsos.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I thought you were a bully man? Those were Cane Corsos.


LOL hence my confusion so CC or "Pit Derivatives" aka American Band Dawgs. CC and APBT happens a lot. 

Still ... dogs of Moslosser World,:
Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)

those guys just look short laying down. I could see they were massive!


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## workingk9_Ohio (Jun 18, 2014)

MarkJoel60 said:


> I'm late to this. I am still hoping I can get my dog Ninja tested.
> 
> But this book is worth a read:
> 
> ...


For some reason, I never got a notice of these replies. I did have a regular panel done at my vet and all was normal but I will definitely look into the Hemopet profile. I'm a huge fan of Dr Dodds. I'll look into that book also. Thank you!!

Jetta is doing GREAT, by the way. My sister and nephews (ages 12 and 7) were over the other day and she was interacting with them, doing tricks for my nephew, shaking hands, taking treats, etc. 

She's just overall become much calmer and more secure. I'm so happy we've worked through everything!! 


Carey


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

nice to see things are going well, thanks for the update.


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