# Hitting my breaking point... please help!



## KatTen10 (Nov 7, 2015)

Hello!

I am new here and desperate for help. My Shepherd and I have had a very complicated relationship since she was a puppy; she is now 6. She was a master at escaping from her crate and I would come home to house just completely destroyed, with clothes and shoes eaten. As a puppy, I expected those were growing pains we would have to work through. As she got older, household items became less important to her, but she would use the bathroom in the house when someone wasn't watching over her. You couldn't even go to the next room without something getting peed or pooped on! I had to give her up for a couple of years because I was young and just couldn't afford her, but she stayed with some family who took amazing care of her, but she did the same thing for them; peeing and pooping all over the house. 

When I got her back a few years ago, it all seemed to magically disappear overnight, unless she was left in the house alone for an extended period of time, but then it was just her getting into the trash. While frustrating, I could deal with that. We had a big back yard, so I ended up letting her stay out there during the day while everyone was at work, weather permitting of course. This worked fantastically! Over the last few months, however, she has been going back to her old ways. I don't think I have more than a handful pairs of underwear left because she's eating them and I can't get her to stop! (She's a sneaky little thing.) Since my boyfriend and I moved about a year ago we have been keeping her in the garage while we are away, which has been great until a few months ago. She has food, water, heat and air depending on the season, her toys and even a couch to go along with her dog bed. Recently, she has been licking the couch non stop while we are gone and I can't get her to stop. This couch is ruined now because of this. She is starting to pee on the rugs out there etc. She has some serious separation anxiety on top of all of this, which I don't know how to fix. From what I have heard from our roommate and even my boyfriend, if I am not around, she is a normal totally relaxed dog, but the second I come home she goes nuts! Spinning in circles, jumping, squealing, panting... she stays glued to my side. I can barely take a shower without her crying at the door.

If anyone can please offer me any insight in what I can do to make this behavior, on all or any ends of the problems I am experiencing, it would be greatly appreciated. I am reaching a breaking point and I don't know what to do. I want to keep her; it will break my heart if I have to get rid of her because she is destroying everything. I can't bear the thought of her going to a horrible home or worse.

Please help!
Thank you in advance!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi there - sorry to hear things have reached such a breaking point.

How much exercise is your dog getting daily/weekly?


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

KatTen10, I'll skip the hand-holding and give it to you straight: you don't know what you're doing. Absolutely all of these issues should (and could) have been resolved in early puppyhood. Not fixing these things is on you, and six years into dog ownership, from what you've written it's clear that you still have next to no understanding of training or behaviour-altering methods. The dog has been allowed to do these things for a very long time, and by now that's ingrained, allowed (if not encouraged!) behaviour. I highly, highly doubt you will be able to make much positive change yourself, regardless of anything you read online or in books. 

I think you have three options:

1. Give up the dog to a very experienced handler that can address these issues. You have complete control over where she goes, and "horrible home or worse" shouldn't even be part of the considerations.

2. Accept and live with these problems.

3. Find a very experienced dog behaviourist & a dog trainer, and work with these people to whatever degree of success you'll be happy with.

Option 3 will be costly and require a huge effort from your side (and any people that live with you). And I do mean huge. You will need to re/learn everything from the ground up - how to interact with the dog, how to train it, how to correct it, what to allow and not allow, how to not set her up for failure, etc. There is plenty of good information on all these topics on this forum and other sites, but you'll need to put in the effort to research it, ask questions, and work with local professionals that can give you hands-on advice.

I would suggest starting with option 3, getting a handle on house training, crate training, fixing separation anxiety, and then transitioning to option 2 if you find yourself overwhelmed.

On the other hand, if your answer to WIBackpacker's question is less than "an hour per day, every day," and you're not willing to immediately meet that bare minimum, Option 1 will be the best choice for both you and the dog.


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## AaronG (Jul 2, 2015)

I agree with yuriy to a point. I do think you need help from an outside source, somebody that can come in, evaluate the situation, look the dogs living situation and your dog and recommend a course of action.

She sounds extremely stressed out, and accepting/living with these problems isn't going to be good for her or yourself. You need to do a little research of your own and find a GOOD and REPUTABLE trainer that can come in and help. It's not always easy dealing with this stuff, but the rewards are certainly worth it.


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## kauffmds (Nov 6, 2015)

KatTen10 said:


> Hello!
> 
> I am new here and desperate for help. My Shepherd and I have had a very complicated relationship since she was a puppy; she is now 6. She was a master at escaping from her crate and I would come home to house just completely destroyed, with clothes and shoes eaten. As a puppy, I expected those were growing pains we would have to work through. As she got older, household items became less important to her, but she would use the bathroom in the house when someone wasn't watching over her. You couldn't even go to the next room without something getting peed or pooped on! I had to give her up for a couple of years because I was young and just couldn't afford her, but she stayed with some family who took amazing care of her, but she did the same thing for them; peeing and pooping all over the house.
> 
> ...


I've said this before and I'll say it again, German Shepherds are dogs that need a job! Otherwise you find yourself in the circumstances that you describe. They're gorgeous, majestic animals that 90% of the population want to own. But, the well behaved GSD that you see around town, or on television, is the end result of a lot of work by their dedicated owners. 

Simply said, German Shepherds aren't designer dogs which nothing is expected. They're working dogs, which is a genetic trait.

The first job that they absolutely must have is obedience training. No exceptions; this is a MUST. This training needs to be done in concert with a dog trainer. Check with your local SPCA or Humane Society; they usually have a list of contacts for this. Once found, attend a training class and talk with the trainer. Explain what's happening with your dog, to the trainer.

Please understand that obedience training is basically "Doggie Night on the Town", the real training happens on a DAILY basis, by you. The reason for the classes are to teach you how to teach your dog.

I'll repeat that statement: Dog training classes are there to teach you, not the dog. You have to do training on a daily basis, at home. This requires a large commitment on your part, rain or shine, and whether you're tired from work. 

From what you've described, your dog sounds bored and stressed. GSD's are very sensitive and in tune with their owners. Daily obedience training will help with the boredom aspect, but I think the dog is additionally stressed. Walking her on leash on a daily basis will relieve a lot of the stress that she's obviously feeling. The licking behavior that you're describing, further indicates stress. 

I'm going to zero into a statement that you made, "We had a big back yard, so I ended up letting her stay out there during the day while everyone was at work, weather permitting of course. This worked fantastically! Over the last few months, however, she has been going back to her old ways."

When she was outside all day, at least she was able to smell things and see other critters, which satisfied a small portion of her need for stimulation. She doesn't get that in a garage, so she's totally bored, leading to neurotic behavior.

German Shepherds are very attached to their humans. Separation anxiety is a given with all GSD's, especially if they've been separated for an extended period of time. It's heightened by a lack of attention by their people. You don't mention taking her for walks, playing ball in the yard, or any activity that enables your dog to interact with you and use her brain at the same time. 

She needs obedience training, plus attention from you.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

You wrote that you and your dog have had a "very complicated" relationship since she was a pup, and that was almost 6 years ago...so I think you and your dog need a new start. 

It seems as though your dog becomes anxious and unsettled when she sees you, the one thing I think you could do asap is sign up for a basic obedience class with your dog. Aside from the benefit of training it will also be a good activity for you to do with your dog. Going to structured classes will be a good start for building a relationship/bond with your dog.
You will learn how to walk your dog on leash. Do you take her for walks on a regular basis? 
Taking your dog for a simple walk or hike is an excellent way to improve your relationship. You in control, holding the leash and making all the decisions. Maybe she does all those destructive things because she has been left to make her own decisions with nobody to redirect the behavior.

Also, throw a ball to her, or play tug with her. Make time for her everyday and let her know that she matters.
You obviously care for your dog because you want to keep her.

I am not blaming you for your situation with your dog, I really hope you are able to make things better.
Good luck.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Do you know anyone who can come in during the day and exercise her? She's bored and lonely. I agree with the suggestions to start obedience and give her a lot more exercise. When I was fostering dogs with high anxiety, I walked them at least thirty minutes around 7 am, 4 pm and a leisurely walk to bond with them for about 20 before bedtime.

Also, do you like her? Do you want to come home to her? It's hard to love a difficult dog and if you aren't 100% on board, she will sense it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your dog is very attached to you. When you are away, she is getting into your things because she wants to see you and smelling/chewing on your things is a way of being close to you. 

By six, you would hope her behavior would be better, but you haven't had her for a couple of years. And now, relegating her to a back yard or garage when you aren't there is, ok, for her safety, BUT, what are you doing with her when you are there?

Also, I think you are giving her too much space to get in trouble when are not supervising. 

This is what I would do. I would set up a ten or fifteen foot by fifteen or twenty foot kennel, on concrete. Somewhere that is 100% safe. In it put a dog house, cot (wood if necessary) Some rubber chews -- that she cannot ingest, and that you watch for wear. Check her teeth regularly, you may have to adjust if she is really going to town on them. And a piece of sturdy lawn furniture -- unlikely to be chewed, a chair or something. Something she can curl up on. Clip a stainless steel bucket for water to the fencing. 

This is ONLY for when you cannot supervise her -- are at work. If she must be crated at night, this should be next to your bed. 

But for when you are home, you need to do the following:
1. Take her to dog classes. Even if she has been before. Get her out every day and do training with her. Train her to do tricks -- fun for you and her. Train her to perform commands -- make that fun too, but that is more important. Train her, plan on keeping training a part of her life forever. And spend 40-60 minutes a day training. Do 1 day at least in class with other dogs and people. 

2. Use a baby gate and keep her in the room with you, so you can supervise, even if you are watching TV, taking a shower, talking on the telephone. Do not give her the run of the house. Maybe as she gets more used to the routine of training and has her body and mind exercised, you can experiment with giving her a section of the house to roam in while you are aware and there, but not in the room with her.

3. Keep the trash where she cannot get it -- this is a self-rewarding negative behavior. Keep food off the counters. Keep your undies/personal items in the drawer or in your laundry basket and out of her reach. This is called management and not training. But you need to do this with this dog. For now anyway. 

Engage your dog. Engage her. train her, talk to her, go to walks with her, take her for an ice cream cone. It is work, but it can also be a LOT of fun. Stop making everything you do with or for the dog a chore. It is not. It is a privilege. Dog ownership is a privilege, and everything you do with her, all the money you spend with her, grooming, cleaning, cooking for her, buying her toys, taking her to the vet -- these are ALL blessings, and you need to know how special it is to be able to own a dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WOW six years of this crap??? First I'll say two things, I'm impressed with the OP's patience for putting up with this crap and second I'm surprised the dog has not eaten something that would kill them! 

The dog is still alive and still there! So that says "something." I can help with Yuriy's # 3.

If you want to find a "Balanced Trainer" and that is what you will "need" at this point.

Jeff Gellman says he can find folks a trainer local to them at his web site:
Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

Additionally look under the heading "Free Advice" everything you need to "properly" train your dog for free is there, crate training for instance. 

He also has a weekly call in radio show and has a Q&A every Wed, listening to them should be useful for you. 


Additonally he does this every week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW0iWPDAHx0&ab_channel=SolidK9Training

Also don't know where you are but Sean O'Shea is someone you should also be aware of that would be this guy again referrals and a weekly radio show:

Los Angeles Dog Training Photos - The Good Dog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVOMbbXK9jc&ab_channel=TheGoodDogTraining

Most likely you will "need" to use an E-Collar all the above guys use them and they would not trainers who do so also!

A resource you have available "here" is Lou Castle that would be this guy.:

Home

Lou say the fastest and most humane way to train your dog is with the proper use of an E-Collar! He would know and he is a "PM" away from you, since you're a member here!  

Most likely with as much going wrong here as there seems to be?? Some form of behaviour modification with an E-Collar will be needed?? And that takes an experienced trainer to do "properly."

But ... I'm not done yet. There are things you can do if your willing! I would just start over.that would be the first link in here. "I just got a rescue ..." start there.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Walks, got mentioned as well as exercise, for the "walks" see "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" and they need to be proper structured walks, that would look like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM&ab_channel=SolidK9Training

Jeff and Sean both cover the "Prong Collar," my personal choice is a SLL if you follow the first clip in the GSD post you can use one also. Details here:

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

You'll need to keep a drag leash on the dog while he's inside, a short leash with no handle (to get caught up on furniture) so that you can control him if necessary. 

Indoors the dog should be in "Place" or in his "Crate" no out of sight stuff and getting into trouble behaviour!

Putting a damper on the crazy takes "Sit on the Dog" and the "Place Command" as well as basic obedience but you will need all three.

Details on training Calmness can be found here:

Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD

So ... there you go, now you have a better understanding of what you need to do I would think??

Oh yeah and NILF:
Nothing in Life is Free

Feel free to ask questions and welcome aboard.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wouldn't use an e-collar with this dog. 

With the separation anxiety, her temperament is borderline. I think an e-collar can be an effective tool with dogs who have a strong personality, or even dogs with a solid temperament. If an inexperienced person uses an e-collar with a borderline dog, a dog that shows some anxiety, and may be rather soft, is not showing any aggression, I am afraid it will do more damage than good.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I wouldn't use an e-collar with this dog.
> 
> With the separation anxiety, her temperament is borderline. I think an e-collar can be an effective tool with dogs who have a strong personality, or even dogs with a solid temperament. If an inexperienced person uses an e-collar with a borderline dog, a dog that shows some anxiety, and may be rather soft, is not showing any aggression, I am afraid it will do more damage than good.


I did stress an experienced trainer. I would tend to agree with you but that is not what the "Pro's" that do use E-Collars on such dogs say.

People "will" go to "Petco" and try out the tool of the week, without any real understanding of what they are doing. Pretty sure the OP get's that's "Not" the way to go??

SLL is my thing not the E-Collar but I understand how they can be used.


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## KatTen10 (Nov 7, 2015)

Thank you to each and every one of you who responded! Working to correct these issues is definitely the route I want to take. I love her dearly and would be devastated if I had to give her up...again. My boyfriend and I talked about classes and I think that is the first step we are going to take. I know it's not just about teaching her alone, I for sure have a lot to learn. I got her when I was single, working 2 jobs and in my very early 20's. I had absolutely no business getting a dog at that time, let alone a dog that requires the amount of time, energy and attention as a German Shepherd. BUT..we love each other a lot and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make things right. 

She goes back and forth between good and bad behavior, which is partially my fault, I'm sure. This is why I came here today. I figured if there was anyone in the world who could steer me in the right direction, it would be someone on a site dedicated to her breed. 

Thanks again y'all! I'll look into obedience and training classes and if you're interested, I'll keep you posted. ?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I would like updates. I have had any number of fosters and rehomes through my door. My favorite method is tethering, to you, because it not only allows you to watch the dog but it gives them that connection to you that they need. It works well with shepherds since they are naturally inclined to want to be near you all the time anyway.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm seconding Selzer's recommendations. I'd only add that she is not reliably house trained (soiling in the house) so I would treat her as though she were not house trained. When she's out of the kennel space recommended, I would have her either tethered to me or crated or otherwise confined. I would go back to praising her when she toilets outside (and I'd put a name on that, too). Just in this regard, act like she's a puppy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

KatTen10 said:


> Thanks again y'all! I'll look into obedience and training classes and if you're interested, I'll keep you posted. ?


Well of course we'er interested.


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## kauffmds (Nov 6, 2015)

KatTen10 said:


> Thank you to each and every one of you who responded! Working to correct these issues is definitely the route I want to take. I love her dearly and would be devastated if I had to give her up...again. My boyfriend and I talked about classes and I think that is the first step we are going to take. I know it's not just about teaching her alone, I for sure have a lot to learn. I got her when I was single, working 2 jobs and in my very early 20's. I had absolutely no business getting a dog at that time, let alone a dog that requires the amount of time, energy and attention as a German Shepherd. BUT..we love each other a lot and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make things right.
> 
> She goes back and forth between good and bad behavior, which is partially my fault, I'm sure. This is why I came here today. I figured if there was anyone in the world who could steer me in the right direction, it would be someone on a site dedicated to her breed.
> 
> Thanks again y'all! I'll look into obedience and training classes and if you're interested, I'll keep you posted. ?


I know it's difficult. I got my first GSD when I was active duty in the Air Force, which wasn't the best choice, so I faced some of the problems that you're having. Find a trainer that makes you comfortable. You'll be surprised at how the classes alone will calm her and socialize her. Please keep us up to date because I really want to hear of your progress. Also, if you feel frustrated and overwhelmed at times (and you will), I hope you come back and tell us so that you we can give you encouragement. I know I've had difficult dogs and I know that others have as well. You can do this. Good luck!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Of course we are interested. I admire your dedication when faced with many problems and your being willing to ask for help.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think we all go through a steep learning curve with our first dog. Mine was a strong willed male Bouvier cross (40 years ago!) and looking back he got away with everything and probably is laughing his *** off at the Rainbow Bridge (if he still wants to meet me there). He taught me to look into behavior and I know he is the reason I became a dog trainer. I loved him dearly, despite all his quirks, caused by my lack of knowledge.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Sheeeeze. Punish her more severely the instant she does something wrong.

They're not stupid, you know. They understand both the disapproval and the spanking.

Let her have it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LF


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Longfisher said:


> Sheeeeze. Punish her more severely the instant she does something wrong.
> 
> They're not stupid, you know. They understand both the disapproval and the spanking.
> 
> ...


This is horrible advice. Please don't "let her have it".


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## Vega-gurl (Sep 1, 2014)

Longfisher said:


> Sheeeeze. Punish her more severely the instant she does something wrong.
> 
> They're not stupid, you know. They understand both the disapproval and the spanking.
> 
> ...


Are you for real?

Please, for the love of everything, DON'T do this, abusing a dog is NEVER the answer.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Twice*



gsdsar said:


> This is horrible advice. Please don't "let her have it".


Oh, I guess gsdsar is right. But me thinks she meant, "Don't let her have it just once." 

LET HER HAVE IT TWICE OR THREE TIMES UNTIL SHE UNDERSTANDS THAT YOU'RE THE BOSS.

All the namby pambies on this board will tell you it's your fault. It ain't. It's the dog's fault. 

Be aggressive. Demand things from that dog. Make them subordinate. Then your world will be much better.

LF


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Abuse*



Vega-gurl said:


> Are you for real?
> 
> Please, for the love of everything, DON'T do this, abusing a dog is NEVER the answer.


No one said abuse, or, can't you read.

Pull that choke chain like you mean it. Snap at her in her face. Tell her in no uncertain terms in the loudest most aggressive voice you can muster that she's a BAD DOOOOOOGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

If she growls back and doesn't immediately retreat charge her.

Then put her in her crate forcefully and immediately and let her stay there until the next feeding time.

Take control of that animal or it'll take control of you.

My dog is the sweetest most loving animal you could possibly imagine. We have a wonderful relationship and it was based on me providing everything the dog needed AS LONG AT IT DID EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED IT TO DO AND NOTHING I DIDN'T WANT IT TO DO, OR, IF IT DID SOMETHING I DIDN'T WANT IT TO DO IT DIDN'T DO IT TWICE.

Don't let these faint of heart and light of hand befuddled amateurs dissuade you. Take control of that animal.

Best,

LF


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*The Sign of Success*

Oh, once you've done what I've recommended enough you'll begin to wonder when you can lighten up. So, here's the key.

When the dog sees you come into the room and the dog NEVER TAKES ITS EYES OFF OF YOU THE WHOLE TIME YOU'RE IN THE ROOM NO MATTER WHETHER IT'S A SECOND OR AN HOUR AND NO MATTER WHETHER THE DOG'S IN ITS PEN OR ON THE FLOOR OR WHAT...like my 110 lb. Zeus does then you've succeeded in the dominance game.

Best,

LF


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I have to say that the two separate all-positive behaviorists that I went to for my GSD did not really help me with leadership. When I went to a Schutzhund club, I watched another member who had lots of French Ring experience discipline my dog very humanely, but she meant it!! I needed to see someone correct my dog (as he rebounds from correction easily) and he was blowing me off.

The two all pos trainers probably would've fainted. My dog is an even happier dog now that I know how to better handle him. Our relationship has become even closer since I am behaving better LOL.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Gimme That Dog*

OP, give me:

1) $1,000

2) That dog for 30 days.

3) One or two days of your time and undivided attention, and,

4) A Xmas card every year telling me how much you absolutely love your dog now that it obeys your ever command.

Best,

LF


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Longfisher said:


> Oh, I guess gsdsar is right. But me thinks she meant, "Don't let her have it just once."
> 
> LET HER HAVE IT TWICE OR THREE TIMES UNTIL SHE UNDERSTANDS THAT YOU'RE THE BOSS.
> 
> ...


 You almost had me. I believe that dogs benefit from fair discipline and I know that the love taps I give Shadow don't even register, it's my disapproval that she avoids.
But subordinate? Sorry, no. I have raised dozens of pups, fostered hundreds of dogs, had great luck with some real hard case issues and at no time have I approached any of them with an objective to 'make them subordinate'. Respect is earned.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> You almost had me. I believe that dogs benefit from fair discipline and I know that the love taps I give Shadow don't even register, it's my disapproval that she avoids.
> But subordinate? Sorry, no. I have raised dozens of pups, fostered hundreds of dogs, had great luck with some real hard case issues and at no time have I approached any of them with an objective to 'make them subordinate'. Respect is earned.


In most cases I'd agree with you. But this dog has ruled the roost for 6 loooooooooooooooooooooooong years.

This dog thinks that she's the master. Can't work that way with this dog.

Bad cop then later good cop with attentive care to its daily well-being all along so dependency develops (food, rest, exercise and *most of all a defined schedule*) is what's needed here.

My GSD was a hard case too from the beginning and I listened to and acted in conformance all the positive B.S. I could stand and it seemed like bribery and was easily ignored by the dog. Then I just got angry about being a second class citizen with my animal when I was the one keeping him alive and I let him know I'd had enough.

To show you what sort of relationship we have now, as I was typing this my dog came in to the room with a ball in his mouth. I told him to GIT as I was busy. He went out of the room, dropped the ball and then came back to the door of the room, laid down and never took his eyes off me. When I turned to face him he sat us in expectation. When I swiveled my chair and laid down my hands on my knees he came barreling towards me with nothing but glee and kisses.

He's subordinate. I lead. He follows. There's structure here perhaps not unlike the pack his ancestors thrived in. *And, he loves it.*

LF


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Lots of good advice here. I think Longfisher has an idea of which way to go but it comes across harsh and it sounds very aggressive. My guess is he/she is not as harsh as it sounds. I think the newest way of training is operant conditioning and yes, this is not all positive. You train positive until you know the dog knows what you want, then you add the boundaries and corrections. Some dogs need very mild correction (a simple "no" for instance) because they are soft and others more clear and stronger correction because they are harder. Working with a GOOD trainer... and these take a while to find, makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE. Personally I would skip classes and get a good trainer that uses operant conditioning and has a track record of working with protection breeds (contact a IPO club near by for recommendations) and do one-on-one classes. You will get more out of it than the generic trainer in puppy classes. Look into videos on YouTube by Michael Ellis and Ivan Balabanov and get the book TEAM DOG by Navy Seal Mike Ritland to understand that it is not really about dominance and punishing but about retraining a working bonded relationship between the two of you. More relationship focused than dominance focused although there is overlap.
Let people know where you live and they can give some suggestions about trainers in your area.
Best... sounds like you have a good attitude.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DutchKarin said:


> Lots of good advice here. I think Longfisher has an idea of which way to go but it comes across harsh and it sounds very aggressive. My guess is he/she is not as harsh as it sounds. I think the newest way of training is operant conditioning and yes, this is not all positive. You train positive until you know the dog knows what you want, then you add the boundaries and corrections. Some dogs need very mild correction (a simple "no" for instance) because they are soft and others more clear and stronger correction because they are harder. Working with a GOOD trainer... and these take a while to find, makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE. Personally I would skip classes and get a good trainer that uses operant conditioning and has a track record of working with protection breeds (contact a IPO club near by for recommendations) and do one-on-one classes. You will get more out of it than the generic trainer in puppy classes. Look into videos on YouTube by Michael Ellis and Ivan Balabanov and get the book TEAM DOG by Navy Seal Mike Ritland to understand that it is not really about dominance and punishing but about retraining a working bonded relationship between the two of you. More relationship focused than dominance focused although there is overlap.
> Let people know where you live and they can give some suggestions about trainers in your area.
> Best... sounds like you have a good attitude.


OK I'll concur, when LF decides to use his "indoor" voice ... he makes good sense


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Longfisher said:


> In most cases I'd agree with you. But this dog has ruled the roost for 6 loooooooooooooooooooooooong years.
> 
> This dog thinks that she's the master. Can't work that way with this dog.
> 
> ...


 I am about as far from a positive training style as you can get. And I hear what you are saying, especially with regards to this dog, I have a dog that we affectionately refer to as my '2x4' dog. AND I always advise structure, especially with tough dogs, my objection is to the term subordinate. I lived with dogs that were my partners, and when the bad guys are lurking I want a partner not a slave at my back.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Moriah said:


> I have to say that the two separate all-positive behaviorists that I went to for my GSD did not really help me with leadership. When I went to a Schutzhund club, I watched another member who had lots of French Ring experience discipline my dog very humanely, but she meant it!! I needed to see someone correct my dog (as he rebounds from correction easily) and he was blowing me off.
> 
> The two all pos trainers probably would've fainted. My dog is an even happier dog now that I know how to better handle him. Our relationship has become even closer since I am behaving better LOL.


I know what Moriah means. Finn's trainer doesn't poo poo fluff fluff around when it comes to corrections. 

I initially thought longfisher was saying
"Kick the Freakin Crap Out of That Out of Control Poor Excuse for a GSD,
Or Give Me 1000.00 and I'll do it for You." Yikes!!!!

But now I'm thinkin s/he is simply saying make meaningful corrections. 
Corrections that matter so the dog gets the message that the behavior won't be tolerated.

I think $1000.00 and a few Xmas cards is cheap for what's being offered.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

No Longfisher. You are wrong. You are wrong and irresponsible in every post you have made to this thread. 

To tell a complete stranger who has had issues with a dog for 6 years to "let them have it " " two or three times" " jerk their choke chain harder" " growl in the face" is so far outside of responsible advice, respoonsible advice is a state away. 

This advice has the potential to destroy any relationship they have, and get the OP bit. It's just wrong. 

I am not a " namby pamby". I use any and all tools at my disposal. I just believe that giving advice like your to an owner I have never met, a dog I have never evaluated and a situation I have never seen to be past irresponsible.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is mostly for LongFisher. 

Do you know what the problem with suggesting physical punishment for dogs is?

Well it has many components. First of all dogs are not shrinking violets. They can take pain. In fact they can take most spanks as love taps. When you step on the dog's foot and break their toe they yelp. Then they may limp or hold it up, but they are not afraid of walking under your feet. They are not afraid of you. They see it as the accident it was and move on, even if you take them to the vet and wrap it and tell them how sorry you are that happened. Doesn't matter even a broken toe is not going to stop a behavior you don't want. Dogs are tough little boogers, and they can handle collar corrections, slaps, hits, pokes, putting them on their side -- physically wrestling the dog into a submissive position. 

And right off the bat, you have a problem when you suggest humans physically master their dogs, prove they are the leader of the pack so to speak. Because most humans do not have it in them to darn near abuse a dog to prove that they are the masters. 

Furthermore, they usually build up to a strong correction. Which means the dog learns to take tougher and tougher corrections, until it needs a REAL correction for it to give you the time of day -- this kind of relationship is no fun at all. 

So if we are going to go back to our erroneous understanding of wolf-behavior, we also understand that the leader changes when the old guy or gal becomes old and loses a few steps. The leader that leads with an iron fist goes down when she is injured or ill. Still want to be a dog or a wolf in charge of the pack? 

C'mon, dogs are smarter than that. They know we aren't dogs. I wish we all could be that smart some times. 

You can, with excellent timing, perform a strong correction on a young dog/pup, and without damaging your relationship, instill in that dog that you are the supreme being in your dog's life. It is why most of us never ran afoul of the law. When we were very young, and our parents were as big as mountains to us, they instilled in us the understanding that we would be dead if we crossed a line. And one day at 24 or 30 we woke up and realized that our parents really weren't that big or that strong or that murderous, but we managed to be relatively good all the same.

Of course if you give a wimpy correction, it won't work. If you injure the dog, you will most likely cause the dog to be afraid of you, but no more respectful of you -- won't change the behavior. The wimpy corrections are just nagging. The dog just blows you off because he loses respect for you with every wimpy correction.

The good news is that you can do what real dominant critters do, and lead, without physically punishing the dog at all. You can lead a dog by having confidence, stature, gravitas if you like. You can lead by praising a dog when he does what you want, and by making him want your form of praise above food, toys, and the butterfly that is meandering along in front of him. You can lead, by being consistent, by giving a command once, when you can enforce it, and following through every time. You can lead by assessing the dog that you have, not the dog that you want, and catering your management, leadership style, training, etc, to the dog's strengths and weaknesses. It isn't rocket science, but having a tough dog will teach you leaps and bounds more than all the easy dogs, and most of it does transfer to all your dogs. Timing, consistency, patience, follow through, and the appropriately applied, seldom used negative marker -- doesn't have to be physical. In fact, much more effective if it is not physical. It works for strong-willed, dominant dogs; it works for weenie, soft dogs; it works for confident, biddible dogs; it works for crazy, hyper dogs. 

The only problem is that it lays the responsibility for the bond, for behavior, for training, for communication on the human end of the equation. And, ya know what? People are happier thinking that their dog is strong-willed, dominant, aggressive, needs a strong hand, needs a correction collar, needs a come-to-Jesus moment, than they are thinking that they aren't any good at canine leadership and management and need to learn how to do it.

If you tell people the problem is in the dog and they should beat it out of them, or euthanize the dog, or get a behaviorist, feed food that isn't loaded with chemicals and sugar, or ______ (fill in the blank), they will probably give you a hearing, and may take your advice. 

If you tell people that the problem is in them, that they need to learn how to discipline themselves so that the dog can understand and respond to them, they are much more likely to blow you off. 

I suppose it is easier to abandon a dog or euthanize a dog, than it is to admit that we need improvement in an area.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Maybe it would help if longfisher clarifies the type of correction s/he is suggesting...
like give an example.

At 1st I thought longfisher was suggesting physical punishment but as I re-read the posts it seemed that s/he meant stronger corrections like Leash Corrections and using the voice in a demanding way to let the dog know in a very assertive, no nonsense way that pooping in the house and destroying things is not okay.

I don't know anyone who would use or condone the use of physical force to correct a dog.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I don't know, I may be the stupid one here, but in the OP's description, I don't see a hard, willful dog needing stern correction. I am not of the all positive school either, I think people have to use different tools because each dog is different. I still use a prong with Newlie, I have used an e-collar in the past and would do so again if needed, and I have in the three years I have had him swatted him on the butt a handful of times. It doesn't hurt him, the big lug, but because I do it so seldom, it makes a big impression on him when I do and he knows he is in the doghouse. So, I don't necessarily object to corrections, per se, I just don't see it with this dog. This dog appears to me to be acting out to get attention, anxious and stressed out and unsure of her boundaries and probably bored at times. Certainly, the OP and the dog both need to work on some things, it is not healthy for either to let this continue, but I would fear that someone might destroy this dog if she is used too harshly.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

newlie said:


> I don't know, I may be the stupid one here, but in the OP's description, I don't see a hard, willful dog needing stern correction. I am not of the all positive school either, I think people have to use different tools because each dog is different. I still use a prong with Newlie, I have used an e-collar in the past and would do so again if needed, and I have in the three years I have had him swatted him on the butt a handful of times. It doesn't hurt him, the big lug, but because I do it so seldom, it makes a big impression on him when I do and he knows he is in the doghouse. So, I don't necessarily object to corrections, per se, I just don't see it with this dog. This dog appears to me to be acting out to get attention, anxious and stressed out and unsure of her boundaries and probably bored at times. Certainly, the OP and the dog both need to work on some things, it is not healthy for either to let this continue, but I would fear that someone might destroy this dog if she is used too harshly.


 Which is precisely why I suggested tethering. It will allow the dog the contact and attention she clearly needs, while allowing her person to move about the house getting things done at the same time giving her the opportunity to enforce/create rules and boundaries

It isn't that I am against corrections, or boundaries, it's that I object to the idea that our dogs are our 'things'. That they are somehow lesser beings to be subjugated and relegated to the outer edges of our lives. Our history with dogs is one of partnership, not tyranny.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

I think to go back to earlier suggestions---exercise and engagement are the key to getting back to the pup you had in the past (prior to her departure and foster stint/s). Another suggestion (if it hasn't been given) is to get her checked out by a vet (the peeing and crying may indicate something afoul). 

At 6, yes, she should probably be bonded with you and maybe less destructive (understatement of the century), but she appears to almost have regressed back to puppyhood antics, but like you said, its "complicated" and she is worth your time and energy. One thing I have found for my pup who, while a bit destructive when younger (and confined to an ex-pen rather than loose) is that whatever and however I chose to correct and train him, it needed to be consistent (by all in house) and evenly applied.

I agree with Newlie on the OPer's description that her pup is bored and anxious (simultaneously) and doesn't have an outlet other than to pee, cry (etc) to garner attention; a fun obedience class (refresher) may go far in helping her gain her confidence back after being out of your home for the time that she was. Our 14+ GSD had MAJOR separation anxiety when we got him (he was abused by the family that had him prior to my sister/ex-BIL giving him to us) and my BIL was very stern with his corrections, as well as leaving him at a kennel for long periods of time---when we got Shane, he'd pee and cower, cry, and jump at the door when we'd leave (plaster and wood shredded from his jumping). Our vet recommended a lavender (yes, a bit "mamby pamby, but, whatevs) based treat/solution that we still use that calmed/calms him to this day (as well as activities and exercises for him to regain his confidence and strengthen his trust in us). He still cries when we leave (and we were taught by trainer to make leaving and coming home from an errand "no big deal" to shane; no "see you baby!" or drama). (As a plus for this issue---Shane saw my ex-BIL this past spring when dropping my nephew at my house and immediately lifted his leg to ex-BIL's shoe---now who is going to correct THAT!!!!  

There are many comforting tools out there, too (shirts, lavender essence for collar, etc) that may help  

Good luck!


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Which is precisely why I suggested tethering. It will allow the dog the contact and attention she clearly needs, while allowing her person to move about the house getting things done at the same time giving her the opportunity to enforce/create rules and boundaries
> 
> It isn't that I am against corrections, or boundaries, it's that* I object to the idea that our dogs are our 'things'. That they are somehow lesser beings to be subjugated and relegated to the outer edges of our lives. Our history with dogs is one of partnership, not tyranny.*



We used tethering with Leo through his mouthiness and "destructive era". It is a great idea!!! We would also have a lead (with no loop, just a straight leather leash) when not tethered so he could be "free" to go about the house but could be stopped if necessary. 

Also, Sabis Mom, your bolded point is SPOT ON and really the way we view our pups!!! Well said :thumbup:


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Which is precisely why I suggested tethering. It will allow the dog the contact and attention she clearly needs, while allowing her person to move about the house getting things done at the same time giving her the opportunity to enforce/create rules and boundaries
> 
> It isn't that I am against corrections, or boundaries, it's that I object to the idea that our dogs are our 'things'. That they are somehow lesser beings to be subjugated and relegated to the outer edges of our lives. Our history with dogs is one of partnership, not tyranny.


 I agree with you. Crating when not supervised, tethering, plenty of play and exercise, some structure to her day, firm but fair and consistent boundaries, etc. I think these are the things that would benefit this particular dog, not harsh corrections or "letting her have it."


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## Vega-gurl (Sep 1, 2014)

This is from a LF post 
"Pull that choke chain like you mean it. Snap at her in her face. Tell her in no uncertain terms in the loudest most aggressive voice you can muster that she's a BAD DOOOOOOGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

If she growls back and doesn't immediately retreat charge her.

Then put her in her crate forcefully and immediately and let her stay there until the next feeding time."

These are not "strong corrections" its abuse. this is training and ruling through fear. OP's dog is already struggling with stress and anxiety, and this "method" will only destroy whatever confidence she has left. 
Also, LF, I'm choosing to ignore your insult. I'm glad you feel like insulting people on the internet is a great way to get your point across, but I think that behavior is for children on the playground, but not for adults on a platform that is meant to help others. 

Proper exercise, real training (positive reinforcements with PROPER corrections, boundaries, and mental stimuli) will help OP's situation. Basically, it sounds like she needs to start from the ground up. Help build both the OP and her dog's confidence, and be on better footing, to move forward. OP- if you feel comfortable with it, ask you vet about low dose anti-anxiety medication for your dog, something that would help her be calm during the times when you are gone, and so she can focus when you are training. And, as you make progress with training and establishing a better relationship, something you can wean her off of. 

and OP- YOU CAN DO THIS. Yes, it will be hard, but we are all rooting for you, and you obviously love this dog, so I completely believe that you can be successful. Don't give up! We have all been in hard spots, so just know that this community has your back. :thumbup:


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

newlie said:


> I don't know, I may be the stupid one here, but in the OP's description, I don't see a hard, willful dog needing stern correction. I am not of the all positive school either, I think people have to use different tools because each dog is different. I still use a prong with Newlie, I have used an e-collar in the past and would do so again if needed, and I have in the three years I have had him swatted him on the butt a handful of times. It doesn't hurt him, the big lug, but because I do it so seldom, it makes a big impression on him when I do and he knows he is in the doghouse. So, I don't necessarily object to corrections, per se, I just don't see it with this dog. This dog appears to me to be acting out to get attention, anxious and stressed out and unsure of her boundaries and probably bored at times. Certainly, the OP and the dog both need to work on some things, it is not healthy for either to let this continue, but I would fear that someone might destroy this dog if she is used too harshly.


newlie. I think you are 100% right. This dog needs special care and the op needs support too from someone who really knows how to rehab an adult dog with ingrained behaviors. It could take a very long time but worth it in the end.
The op loves her dog and that dog adores her owner.

I sent the op a pm apologizing for a post I wrote.
I made light of longfishers posts and I'd hoped she wasn't offended by what I wrote.

I suggested basic obedience class because the dog probably knows the basic commands and it would be more of a social and fun activity with hardly any stress for dog or owner. A baby step toward a new start.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Findlay said:


> newlie. I think you are 100% right. This dog needs special care and the op needs support too from someone who really knows how to rehab an adult dog with ingrained behaviors. It could take a very long time but worth it in the end.
> The op loves her dog and that dog adores her owner.
> 
> I sent the op a pm apologizing for a post I wrote.
> ...


Yes, and I think that's great! They need to spend more time together, working on things yes, but also enjoying each other, so that they can try to re-start their relationship on a more positive note.


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## KatTen10 (Nov 7, 2015)

Longfisher, I hear everything you have said and I admit I was a little taken back with your first replies. After your replies mellowed down a bit, I completely understand everything you are saying, but I don't think I really explained who she is as a living being. When I came here and signed up on this forum, I was literally to a point of begging for help. Naturally all I had to say about her was negative given the point I was/am at. 

She is the sweetest, most loyal animal I have ever had the honor of sharing my life with. Owning your own pet rather than the pets you grew up with are two completely different things and I never really understood the difference until she and I came into each other's lives. This is going to be a lengthy post, so I will understand if some of you lose interest as this goes on.. 

As I mentioned before, I had absolutely no business getting a dog when I did.. but I did. I was in a terrible situation and dealing with a lot of emotional things on top of learning how to be a real grown up and find my "place" in this world and really hard thing called adulthood. A neighbor knew someone who had German Shepherd puppies and my heart just melted at the idea of having a puppy. Having a companion that would never yell at me, raise a hand to me, be there for me when I was lonely and listen to me when I was sad. From day one, it was a struggle, but it was (and still is) worth it. I went to pick a puppy out and all the others just didn't appeal to me in any way. They were all cute and adorable, but something about her told me I *had* to have her. 

She wouldn't come to me.. she ran and hid and made it very difficult. I almost gave up. I literally crawled under a car these people had in their back yard to get to her. I figured out that I wasn't going to "get" her but she was going to have to come to me. I sat there next to the car for quite some time and called her gently and left my hand out for her to come check me out. She didn't come. I found a stick and tossed it about halfway between us.. she sat there and stared at it and at me. I leaned in and grabbed it and drug it back and forth. She finally seemed a little interested.. she was scared from all the commotion of people coming and looking at her brothers and sisters so I decided to be patient and try and play. It worked! She came to me! I was so excited. She was 12 weeks old, one ear still folded and the other only halfway standing up and when I finally got her into my arms my heart melted. She rode with me in my lap on the way home.

Fast forward a little while in the day and it was time for bed. I spent every second with her that night and when I had to leave her for bed (I gated off a small room in the house for her to stay in) she yelped and howled and cried. I brought her to my room... and let her in my bed. I know, I know.. bad owner! I couldn't help it. I bought a crate a few weeks later and pretty quickly she learned "Get in your crate". I would put her in there when I needed to go to work or when she was in trouble. She went in there when I needed to shower or other things that I just couldn't have her right under me for. I taught her to go to the door and hit the knob with her paws (when she was little little it was more "go to the door and sit there") to let me know she needed to go outside. I lived in a neighborhood I wasn't that comfortable in so I didn't necessarily take her for long walks at night, but I taught her how to be in the yard without a leash and taught her what her boundaries were. If she went too far, I would call her and she would come running back to me. I pet her, loved her and told her to go back and " do her business" and she would go back out in the yard and sniff and well, handle her business. 

The problem was, I worked a lot. I put her in her crate when I wasn't home and when I came back, I'd have a mess to deal with. When she got bigger, she learned how to get out of the crate. No matter what, she would get out. I even got to the point of tying the edges together and somehow, the crate in tact, she would be out when I got home. Shoes, toilet paper, clothes, books.. you name it.. It was out and destroyed. I would yell at her and pop her bottom and she would sulk, but loved me all the same. My belly hurt when I was at work because I missed her so much. All I wanted to do was get home to her and play with her, teach her and love her. She got out once.. ran away for hours and hours. Looked for her in the pouring rain and when I finally decided I just couldn't anymore. I went home, put food out on the porch and sat there. 20 minutes later she came home. I took her everywhere. I took her to the park, driving with me to the store, gas station... anywhere. I wanted her with me and she wanted to be with me. I realize this may be why separation is so hard for her, but I don't really know the answer to that. I'm not an expert. 

All of the things she does that I mentioned in my original posts are when i'm asleep or not around. When i'm awake, she's by my side at all times. Some of you have mentioned tethering, but truth be told, if she's doing something I'm not happy with all I have to do is snap or say her name and she's done. I tell her to go to bed and she'll run to her doggy bed. I tell her a direction to go and snap and point, she's there. It may take a few times, but it gets done. My frustration with that is that I need to figure out how to get her to do it on my first command, not the 3rd. 

I don't really believe in physically disciplining a dog to the point that they are submissive. It's a companionship.. not the relationship of a master and a slave. We need to respect each other and I think right now both of us are very frustrated with each other. I still work 50 hours a week or so and need to spend more time with her. She craves attention and honestly, sometimes I just don't have the energy. It's horrible, but right now it's life. I am working on making this less true but for now it is what it is. I love her when I come home and play with her as much as I can and I cuddle with her in bed before my boyfriend comes. 

My frustration at this point is how do I fix what i'm not here to catch her doing? I don't believe that disciplining a dog for something when it's hours after the fact is going to solve anything. I have to admit, Saturday I came home and got mad all over again once I started cleaning up the mess. I looked at her, called her name sternly and she knew she had done something wrong. She crouched down to the ground, laid her ears down and had that "ohh no I'm in trouble" look in her eyes. I grabbed pair of undies that she destroyed, held them to her and swatted her nose. "Bad! Bad dog! Do you see this? *whap on the nose* No! You don't do this! *whap on the nose* BAD DOG!" It hurt me more than it hurt her. Literally. I managed to get the side of my finger just right and it swelled and bruised. She's been a lot better since that day.. since I came here. I know it's not a problem to solve in a couple of days, but I took the things you all have said to heart and I have started with the attention I give her. After I scolded her and was just mad at her for even breathing for a day, I worked past that and sat with her. Talked to her.. lol I even tried to reason with her. That might sound crazy to a lot of people, but I think some of you will understand.

All in all without going in circles (trust me, I could keep going) the point is she isn't just down right a bad dog. We just have some learning to do with each other.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

OP it sounds like you got this dog when you were in a very emotionally unstable place. You were unable to be a solid and confident leader. That inability has shaped your ENTIRE relationship. 

Good thing is, dogs don't live in the past. They are only the present. So put on you big girl panties and do the hard work. You got this. It won't always be fun. She is going to give you sad looks, and she is going to not be stuck to your side. But you can do this. 

Sit down, figure out what you want in a dog. Decide what you want and don't want. And then look at where you need to go to see that picture in real life. 

Find a trainer, someone that can come in and look at your relationship and give you things to do to improve your life together. 

Look up "crate games" start that right away. Excersise her a heck of a lot more than you are. A lot more than you are!!! It's never enough. But a tired dog is a good dog. Sign up for some Nose works classes or agility or obedience. Get her mind engaged, work that brain everyday! It really tired them out. But a book on "trick" training. Teach her to turn off the light, get you a beer and retrieve your keys! 

Start engaging your dog. Seriously. They need the engagement. They need to be needed and a part of everything. They can't only feel frustration and disappointment from you. Give her something to excel in!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hmmmmm, I'm sorry, but I can see that going way wrong. Dog hits the light switch, steals your car keys, and then runs to the fridge and gets you a beer. 

I can just hear myself explaining to my boss on no uncertain terms that the dog doesn't want me to come in today.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

selzer said:


> Hmmmmm, I'm sorry, but I can see that going way wrong. Dog hits the light switch, steals your car keys, and then runs to the fridge and gets you a beer.
> 
> I can just hear myself explaining to my boss on no uncertain terms that the dog doesn't want me to come in today.


Quit foiling my ultimate plan to get out of work!!!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> Hmmmmm, I'm sorry, but I can see that going way wrong. Dog hits the light switch, steals your car keys, and then runs to the fridge and gets you a beer.
> 
> I can just hear myself explaining to my boss on no uncertain terms that the dog doesn't want me to come in today.


 Well if it's stealing the car keys, it can go get more beer. And put it in the fridge.


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

From reading only the opening post and reading between the lines, it seems to me that you're leaving the dog alone for too long.

In my humble opinion and experience, German Shepherds are dogs that crave human contact, especially contact with who they deem their pack leader.

To crate the dog (something i personally never do), leave it alone all day, leave it alone for extended periods, etc etc, is something which says to me that you simply don't have enough time to offer the dog.

People will disagree with me but i don't think anyone should own this breed unless they can be with it for the vast majority of its waking day.

My dog is only away from me when i'm in bed or if i pop to the shops.

Personally, i would give the dog to someone who has adequate time to dedicate to it.

Also, things like going absolutely mental when you return home/get a lead out for a walk and things like that says that these things are novelty. I know someone whose GSD never goes out, and who fuss it when they come home from anywhere. The result is that any guest that the dog is familiar with cannot come into the house without it spinning in circles, jumping up to the kitchen counters with front paws, barking, jumping up, whining and most of the time weeing on their shoes. Getting its lead out results in the same thing.

Make these things a non-event because they're so familiar and these issues disappear in my experience.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Young dogs have more energy, that is true, but if all the dogs in the US who are owned by couples who work or by single people who work are rehomed, there would be tens of millions of dogs murdered in shelters. 

By the time people are old enough to retire, here, they are on the hairy edge of being young enough to handle a new young dog. Some clearly won't be able to. 

If we have to work all our lives so that someday when we retire, we will have the time and resources to own one, then most of us will live without a GSD, ever. And worse yet, most GSDs will miss out on wonderful owners.

I am not a fan of crating dogs for extended periods either, but I do believe in kenneling them when I cannot supervise for their own safety. Dogs are critters of habit and they thrive with routines. They have no trouble going in their kennel before I have to get ready and go to work. 

Working people can manage GSDs, and even GSD puppies. They just have to plan it out and sacrifice in some areas.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Ummm...I have a five year old dog who gets walked every day and every day she goes bonkers when I pick up the leash, or for that matter if I pick up a bag, she simply has poor self control. To add to that, she actually hates being out of the yard at all. By the time we get home from a walk she is so stressed and upset she hides in her crate, and she has been doing this since she was a baby. I simply deal with it. If she starts actually leaving the ground I just gently restrain her. Some dogs are just high strung. 
So no, making something familiar does not always make it mundane.
Further to that, I work. Sometimes more then one job, to provide adequate care for my dogs. At no point would I consider giving them up, and I can promise you my dogs are happy here. I would love to be able to spend all day playing with my dogs, alas I am not independently wealthy. Neither are any of the dog owners I know.


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Ummm...I have a five year old dog who gets walked every day and every day she goes bonkers when I pick up the leash, or for that matter if I pick up a bag, she simply has poor self control. To add to that, she actually hates being out of the yard at all. By the time we get home from a walk she is so stressed and upset she hides in her crate, and she has been doing this since she was a baby. I simply deal with it. If she starts actually leaving the ground I just gently restrain her. Some dogs are just high strung.
> So no, making something familiar does not always make it mundane.
> Further to that, I work. Sometimes more then one job, to provide adequate care for my dogs. At no point would I consider giving them up, and I can promise you my dogs are happy here. I would love to be able to spend all day playing with my dogs, alas I am not independently wealthy. Neither are any of the dog owners I know.


Sounds like you have poor control of your dog. I've never seen a dog that was properly trained go mental at something as simple and routine as a walk.

I also stand by my opinion that leaving this particular breed alone all day is cruel, whatever the reason.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Besides doing something like agility or nosework(which is a great idea to get some energy out), you can get a flirt pole(most of these dogs love a flirt pole), maybe find a place you can take her swimming. You are going to have to start at the basics with the obedience, you have indirectly trained her that you repeat the commands and then she decides to do them or not. You should never repeat the command, you wait them out until they do it, so they understand its done when you say. Be prepared for the blood to rush to your head when your working on the down command and you have to sit there pointing at the ground while she paws you, mouths you and does everything not to go down, but I bet she eventually does it and you don't repeat the command down. Use high value treats at first, then treats go away. I believe you can do this, you just have to regroup, take a deep breath and start over. Once you start seeing results you will be so proud of what you accomplished


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

finndog said:


> I also stand by my opinion that leaving this particular breed alone all day is cruel, whatever the reason.



There is nothing wrong with these dogs being left home while someone works. Its silly to think that every person that owns this breed should not work or not own one until they are retired. There are expenses that come with this breed--good diet, training, and medical, so unless you are a self-made millionaire not working isn't an option. My dogs probably prefer me to be home, but they are completely relaxed and comfortable when I'm not. Heck I prefer to be home with them, I love doing stuff with them, but I will be the first to say that they can be pretty boring--on numerous days off I've watched them sleep the day away...those slackers!!


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

llombardo said:


> There is nothing wrong with these dogs being left home while someone works. Its silly to think that every person that owns this breed should not work or not own one until they are retired. There are expenses that come with this breed--good diet, training, and medical, so unless you are a self-made millionaire not working isn't an option. My dogs probably prefer me to be home, but they are completely relaxed and comfortable when I'm not. Heck I prefer to be home with them, I love doing stuff with them, but I will be the first to say that they can be pretty boring--on numerous days off I've watched them sleep the day away...those slackers!!


I respectfully disagree. Just because the vast majority can't give them the time they deserve, want and need with you, doesn't mean leaving them alone all day to their own devices is right.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

finndog said:


> I respectfully disagree. Just because the vast majority can't give them the time they deserve, want and need with you, doesn't mean leaving them alone all day to their own devices is right.


What do you think they do when your not home? Why does a well adjusted balanced dog need someone around 24/7? What does one do with a dog 24/7? 

This is what my dogs do when I'm home. It's a beautiful day and the door is wide open for them to come and go---I don't think they are lacking for anything. They are happy and content.


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

llombardo said:


> What do you think they do when your not home? *Why does a well adjusted balanced dog need someone around 24/7?* What does one do with a dog 24/7?


I never said they did??? 

Leaving them alone (especially a single dog) for 8 hours+ every day, especially if they are crated, means you shouldn't own one. As i said, it's my opinion. People may disagree, that's fine. If i had to get up at 6, get ready for work, leave at 8, work from 9-5, get home at 6, there's no way i would own a dog and have it locked up at home alone all day. If people that do this take this opinion as an insult because it's easier than admitting that they don't have enough time for a dog then that's fine too, but i'd advise a thicker skin.

Of course i'm lucky that i don't have to work and when i do work i can take the dog with me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

finndog said:


> I never said they did???
> 
> Leaving them alone (especially a single dog) for 8 hours+ every day, especially if they are crated, means you shouldn't own one. As i said, it's my opinion. People may disagree, that's fine. If i had to get up at 6, get ready for work, leave at 8, work from 9-5, get home at 6, there's no way i would own a dog and have it locked up at home alone all day. If people that do this take this opinion as an insult because it's easier than admitting that they don't have enough time for a dog then that's fine too, but i'd advise a thicker skin.
> 
> Of course i'm lucky that i don't have to work and when i do work i can take the dog with me.


I understand its your opinion, but why is that your opinion? Your not answering that question. I'm asking you why you feel that one should not own a dog if they work all day? What needs do you think are not being met? Its a simple question. If you are going to state an opinion and make someone(not I in this case, but possibly the OP) feel bad because they have to work and own a dog, then you should state your reasons so that it does or doesn't make sense.

And it doesn't bother me at all because I will continue to own dogs and work full time. I actually feel sorry for people that want a dog but feel that working rules it out.


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I understand its your opinion, but why is that your opinion? Your not answering that question. I'm asking you why you feel that one should not own a dog if they work all day? What needs do you think are not being met? Its a simple question. If you are going to state an opinion and make someone(not I in this case, but possibly the OP) feel bad because they have to work and own a dog, then you should state your reasons so that it does or doesn't make sense.
> 
> And it doesn't bother me at all because I will continue to own dogs and work full time. I actually feel sorry for people that want a dog but feel that working rules it out.


What needs are not being met?

If a dog is kept in a locked room/section of a house for over 10 hours a day, without its owner who it sees as its boss, its best friend and its leader, then i don't see why you're even asking this question unless you think this is how a dog should live?

It's clearly not. I thought that would go without saying without having to 'prove' something that is obvious?

Obviously it's slightly different if you've got more than 1 dog or if it has free run of a big yard or something, but the average person doesn't have that.

Most people on here from what i see advocate crating when they're not around, and that for me is downright cruelty, especially if for more than an hour or so.

As i've said previously, i know i won't get agreement from the majority, but that's fine.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

People that work can have this breed with no issues. Crating is not cruel if its a normal day. 
Finndog, are you saying if your situation changed, because nothing is certain in life, youd give your dogs up? 
OP, any updates on what's going on?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I don't think anybody on this forum hasn't sometimes wished they had more time to spend with their dogs. But that doesn't mean your premise is correct. 

A dog may be in a home where his owner works, but he is fed and exercised, has at least routine medical care, is warm in the winter and cool in the summer, has a few toys, is brushed and petted and talked to, is given no reasonable reason to be afraid, and knows they are loved everyday of their lives. Most of the people on this forum would consider these as minimum requirements, and their dogs actually have much more than this. My husband used to tell me that there are a lot of people in the world who don't live as well as our dogs and sadly, he was right.

A dog in a shelter who, depending on how good and how much funding it has, may or may not have much of any of these things.

So, which is more cruel?

And by the way, there are many dogs who are just simply not wired right. Sabismom has worked with many, many rescues in her life and chooses to deal with and manage their issues rather than turning them back to a shelter where they would inevitably be euthanized. I think you ought to be careful making such sweeping generalizations and incorrect assumptions.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

newlie said:


> I don't think anybody on this forum hasn't sometimes wished they had more time to spend with their dogs. But that doesn't mean your premise is correct.
> 
> A dog may be in a home where his owner works, but he is fed and exercised, has at least routine medical care, is warm in the winter and cool in the summer, has a few toys, is brushed and petted and talked to, is given no reasonable reason to be afraid, and knows they are loved everyday of their lives. Most of the people on this forum would consider these as minimum requirements, and their dogs actually have much more than this. My husband used to tell me that there are a lot of people in the world who don't live as well as our dogs and sadly, he was right.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

finndog said:


> Sounds like you have poor control of your dog. I've never seen a dog that was properly trained go mental at something as simple and routine as a walk.
> 
> I also stand by my opinion that leaving this particular breed alone all day is cruel, whatever the reason.


 You don't know me or my dog. 

You are aware that this breed is used for work all over the world? You are aware that a lot of those dogs are kenneled when not working? You do know that left on their own dogs, all canines, sleep a lot?
Weren't a lot of the border dogs basically staked out and left to watch their area?


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> People that work can have this breed with no issues. Crating is not cruel if its a normal day.
> Finndog, are you saying if your situation changed, because nothing is certain in life, youd give your dogs up?


My dog comes first, always. As do my other pets. My bengal cats have just been left with a relative in England because we didn't want to put them through being driven 2 hours to an airport, put in holding, flown across to mainland Europe, and be brought to a new house with a dog they'd never met and who they are nervous around.

My animals come before myself and that includes whether i'd have to give them up for their own benefit or not.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

finndog said:


> My dog comes first, always. As do my other pets. My bengal cats have just been left with a relative in England because we didn't want to put them through being driven 2 hours to an airport, put in holding, flown across to mainland Europe, and be brought to a new house with a dog they'd never met and who they are nervous around.
> 
> My animals come before myself and that includes whether i'd have to give them up for their own benefit or not.


Well everyone has an opinion (and we know the saying on that) on what's best. I honestly think rehoming an animal after an attachment is made is cruel. A dog who's made a bond and views you as part of its pack, having part of their life ripped away? 
Unfortunately real people have to work. Not everyone can be fortunate like yourself and live the elite lifestyle. I don't know your situation, such as you don't in return. Ill just say that it seems majority of the people on here care for their dogs as much as you. Crating within reason is a great tool that may or may not lead to eventually allowing the dog to have a little more freedom.
I'll just say your comments are unrealistic to the vast majority and I strongly disagree with your views. I guess the militaries around the world, anf police shouldn't have dogs either because they might be kenneled for over 8 hours too.


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> You don't know me or my dog.


You're the one who said you can't keep your dog calm with something as simple as an impending walk. There seems to be a propensity amongst dog owners that because they do something, then that something is ok. 'It's done it since being a puppy' is just an excuse being made for your lack of control.

If you can't get your dog to sit quietly while you put a lead on it (something i've achieved in 2 days with every single 8 week old puppy i've ever had - and i'm not even a training 'guru' or anything even approaching one) then i don't need to 'know you' to make a judgement.

Same as i don't need to know someone whose dog steals food off the table to know they have zero control over it.

I'm sorry if this hurts your ego or something.:shrug:


cloudpump said:


> Well everyone has an opinion (and we know the saying on that) on what's best. I honestly think rehoming an animal after an attachment is made is cruel. A dog who's made a bond and views you as part of its pack, having part of their life ripped away?
> Unfortunately real people have to work. Not everyone can be fortunate like yourself and live the elite lifestyle. I don't know your situation, such as you don't in return. Ill just say that it seems majority of the people on here care for their dogs as much as you. Crating within reason is a great tool that may or may not lead to eventually allowing the dog to have a little more freedom.
> I'll just say your comments are unrealistic to the vast majority and I strongly disagree with your views. I guess the militaries around the world, anf police shouldn't have dogs either because they might be kenneled for over 8 hours too.


I don't live an 'elite' lifestyle. Merely one where i'm home a lot.

Comparison with militaries or other things are silly. Just because people do it doesn't make it correct.

It's akin to saying 'well militaries let them sit in cages all day so it can't be bad'. Which is the same as the people who say dried biscuits must be good because millions of people feed them. Or the people who say table scraps of any sort of food going are good for your dog because 'that's all they were ever fed in the past'. 

There's optimum and there's non-optimum. Just because the vast majority of dog owners operate in a non-optimum fashion doesn't make it right.

Dogs don't belong in cages in houses or in rooms in houses on their own for the vast majority of the day. Nobody can really convince me otherwise, and anyway, my original point was that the owner in this thread seems to have no time for their dog.

Their problems would certainly point to that.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Which was admitted. She then asked for help. Not a chastising or told she shouldn't be crating. She asked for help.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

finndog said:


> I don't live an 'elite' lifestyle. Merely one where i'm home a lot.
> 
> Comparison with militaries or other things are silly. Just because people do it doesn't make it correct.
> 
> ...


so which is a better home - one where the human is home all day but does little besides walking the dog to potty? or a home where the human works 40 hours (or more) a week but does daily training, competes on the weekends and otherwise works and spends time with the dog?

There is a lot more to the scenario than someone being home. Whether I am home or not, my dog spends the majority of his time sleeping or amusing himself. When it is time for training, he is happy and ready to go.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

finndog said:


> I respectfully disagree. Just because the vast majority can't give them the time they deserve, want and need with you, doesn't mean leaving them alone all day to their own devices is right.



This rationale is what fuels PETA - no one should have animals.

I have worked from home - dogs pretty much slept most of the time, just like when I spend a weekend day at home....

People work, people have animals - is it the most perfect scenerio? No, of course not, but animals do fine left while you work....if they understood the choice, I am sure they would choose to stay in a home where they are loved rather than surrendered to be PTS in a overpopulated animal control facility.....just use some common sense here....dogs live in the moment and enjoy you when you are with them and pretty much chill when you are not...

Lee


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I still don't feel like you answered my question about which is more cruel, a dog who lives with people work or a dog in an overpopulated, under-staffed and under-funded shelter?

According to estimates by the American Humane Society, an estimated 3.7 million animals were euthanized here in 2008. Some were old, some were sick and some were aggressive, but most were put to sleep because there was no home for them, shelters became overcrowded and sooner or later, some had to die. So consider the carnage that would result if everybody who worked turned their animals in to shelters. Do you truly believe that death for young, healthy animals is better than a "non-optimum" life as you put it? If so, I doubt the animals in question would agree with you.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

finndog said:


> You're the one who said you can't keep your dog calm with something as simple as an impending walk. There seems to be a propensity amongst dog owners that because they do something, then that something is ok. 'It's done it since being a puppy' is just an excuse being made for your lack of control.
> 
> If you can't get your dog to sit quietly while you put a lead on it (something i've achieved in 2 days with every single 8 week old puppy i've ever had - and i'm not even a training 'guru' or anything even approaching one) then i don't need to 'know you' to make a judgement.
> 
> ...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'd get you and your dog into a sport dog program - maybe agility or fly ball. From what you describe, you are a prize to her (which evidently drives you nuts) so you need to find a way to ramp this down -- perhaps change the way you react to her antics. If you get upset or tense, try to change that response. 

As for your underwear - put them up. (My first dog - long ago and far away before I could think of such direct solutions - had a fetish for my underwear.)


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## kimrocks (Jul 26, 2015)

http://m.costco.com/Lucky-Dog-Uptown-Welded-Wire-Box-Kennel-6'H-x-8'L-x-4'W.product.11671771.html could come in handy - indoors - when away.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

finndog said:


> From reading only the opening post and reading between the lines, it seems to me that you're leaving the dog alone for too long.
> 
> In my humble opinion and experience, German Shepherds are dogs that crave human contact, especially contact with who they deem their pack leader.
> 
> ...


I have to disagree with the bolded, it sounds boring, the walk has no value to the dog so it's just going through the motions, or least that's how it sounds. We have 4 gsds and all will react excitedly for a walk, they will also hold a sit to be collared/leashed and while exiting the house, yard, ect. 

We don't walk them everyday, instead we choose different forms of exercise so nothing becomes routine or mundane for them, even walks are dispersed with games like tug, it should be fun for them.


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