# Will my puppy be ok after being bullied today?



## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Hey everyone,

My pup (4 months) got pinned down today by a couple dogs off lead (no biting), I pulled them off him but he was crying and then quiet afterward, I'm so worried that he's been traumatised. Here's how it went down:

We don't have many dog parks in WA, but plenty of public and state parks where dog owners can exercise their dogs (off lead). In one of them near my house there's always a bunch of owners and there dogs in one area with their dogs off lead and playing with each other. I usually head to a quiet area where we can play, have a bit of fetch, training etc. and give them a wide berth, but we wandered a bit too close today on our way back to the car. A couple medium sized dogs came up to us off lead, I kept walking with my pup on lead and calling him to keep up. The dogs reached us, and at first they just sniffed so I just tried to keep walking after an adequate time for some polite hellos. They got in front of us and my pup started to back away behind me, I could see he was uncomfortable so I got in between the other dogs and my pup and looked around for their owners. In that seconds, they had got around me and had my pup on his back. He was crying (whining and yelping) but there was no biting. I pulled them off him, but the other owners (of other dogs included) just laughed and said it was normal. They said that all the dogs there do that to puppies, and that he'd be fine after he knew his place. 

I don't know if this is true, but I was upset. I kept it together for my pup's sake and calmly pushed the other dogs away and we left. He was uncharacteristically quiet afterward, and so I sat down with him so that he could calm down (he was panting). When we did get to my car, a couple had arrived with a small dog, and instead of his usual happy sniffing of the other dog and tail wagging, my pup just stayed behind me with his head low while I opened the car. 

Do you think he's been affected by the earlier incident? He's such a confident, curious guy and I'm worried that this has taken some of that away or made him fearful of other dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My older golden was pinned at about the same age. His crying and whining, which was loud caused the dog to react more turning it into a full blown vicious attack. It's not funny, it's not acceptable. Find a stable dog you know for your dog to interact with, the sooner the better, so he learns thst not all dogs will do this. In the future avoid those dogs and those people.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

How YOU react and how quickly you bounce back and behave happy and normal makes a huge impact on how quickly your pup gets over this.

Along with making sure the next dogs/pups you meet are great and as soon as you see them you do your high happy 'look who's coming we are so delighted' voice as you get together. 

When pups meet many dogs and only a few 'inappropriate' meetings take place, they can put it into perspective and know that THAT big black dog is a bully or THAT teeny terrier needs to be avoided.

PUPPY CLASSES are an ideal way to meet other good pups in a very controlled situation!

And remember, that bad meeting you described has a good chance of affecting YOU more than your puppy and your worry/tension will transmit right down that leash in a bad way. YOU need to be happy and delighted to dismiss any concerns your pup may be feeling. And you need to be RIGHT that this upcoming meeting(s) are wonderful!


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks llombardo and MRL. I don't usually let him play with random dogs I don't know, so I was annoyed that the owners let their dogs wander so far away from them. He's just finished puppy school and we'll be signing up for more classes in the new year, he loves them. 

I took him out this morning to another park where we have some safe and stable doggy friends, and I made sure I was extra excited to see them. He was back to his usual, boisterous self, even with the big (softy) rotties! 

I totally agree that I was more affected than he was about the whole thing. And thinking back, he was probably just reacting to my mood last night when we got home, he just sat on my feet and watched me. Glad to say that when I changed my attitude, so did he! 

Thanks for the great advice, and the reassurance


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Dog Parks are a bad idea.

You need controlled interactions for your puppy to make positive experiences...
You cant control how other dogs act... Or how responsible their owners are...

A bad experience at a puppy's age can possible make him dog aggressive/fearfull etc...
You need to ensure that the rest of his experiences with other dogs are positive so you don't have a dog aggressive dog..

This unfortunately cant be done at a dog park...

I understand the lovely feeling of going to the dog park and watching your dog interact with other dogs... Its a nice getaway, almost like the african bush in a metropolitan city...

However these experiences are more for us the humans than for the dog...

If you want to go to public places to socialise your dog, make sure you know the dogs he is interacting with... Dogs behave very differently with each and every new dog...

You need to identify possible aggressive threats... You could argue that each owner needs to be responsible with their own dogs. this is true... However This is hardly NEVER the case... You need to be responsible for your puppy's safety.

Dogs will often wander away from owners at dog parks... Dogs at dog parks more often than not will not recall when called...
These are average dogs... Don't expect them to be trained... They are conditioned only to interacting/playing/chasing/dominating other dogs... Some dogs are defensive over their toys or water bowls..

Many people with large dogs cant handle their dog if it gets into a fight...
They dont know how to break up a dog fight...

Fights can happen... It is fairly common at dog parks...
Puppies can also get attacked.

I have seen more aggressiveness in dogs at dog parks more than anywhere else. There will be at least one big fight every week at a dog park...


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Wow, You Set That Puppy Back a Year!*

Firstly, without his parents or pack that puppy is absolutely prey to other dogs.

Think if it this way, in nature the world is actually incredibly violent. For social animals like great cats, wild canines and even dolphins their world is actually just a big landscape over which violent ungovernable gangs fight for supremacy. And, it's a life and death fight, for sure.

Dogs may have been de-tuned a bit from their ancestors but put two or three of them together in an organized pack and you'll see that same violence return, especially against puppies, but not restricted by any means to puppies. That violence can be brought to bear on humans too.

So, you take you puppy into that environment and the puppy immediately recognizes the impending attack and reacts to retreat. What the heck else will a BABY do? He hasn't anywhere near the strength or experience to fight back.

That retreat confirms what the pack already knew, he was a prey animal. And, their prey instincts are triggered. In most instances, they'd savage your puppy. Why they didn't kill you puppy is a miracle.

YOU ARE THE PUPPY'S PARENT AND YOUR FAMILY IS THE PUPPY'S PACK AND PROTECTORS IN THE PLACE OF HIS PARENTS AND PACK WHO ARE NOW DISTANT.

Given the same situation, the puppy's pack would have defended him easily up to the point of killing or being killed. And, the puppy would have instantly learned loyalty and subservience to those in the pack that defended him.

What did you do? YOU DID THEM MINIMUM AND THAT'S ALL. I'd be amazed if the puppy looked to you for protection ever again and I'd be amazed if the puppy didn't question your worth and authority in the future. You've got a long ways to go now to regain that puppy's trust and respect.

Here's what I did to correct the same problem of believing that at a dog park or a local gathering of supposedly kind dogs which at both locations I was stupid enough to be politically correct.

I BECAME THE MOST AGGRESSIVE THING ON THE STREET WHEN MY PUPPY WAS WITH ME.

If a dog on the street or off, on leash or not even so much as looked at my puppy with attention I growled at that dog louder than a Grizzly bear. If the dog was not with anyone and unleashed I immediately opened a can of whoopass on that animal, charged it with the puppy in tow, growled like a wild man and shouted at the top of my lungs to drive it off. If I didn't yield and kept coming I sprayed it with pepper spray (6 incidents). If that didn't work I kicked or punched the crap out of the charging dog after having yanked my puppy behind me.

Then I walked my puppy along the ditch drainage near my home daily where we would walk behind the homes and outside the fences of families which owned dogs. It's natural for the dogs to alert, bark and even charge their own fences to protect their property.

EACH AND EVERY TIME THAT HAPPENED AND WITH MY PUPPY ON SHORT LEASH AND TOW I WOULD CHARGE THAT FENCE LIKE A WILD MAN IN THE SAME FASHION I'D CHARGED DOGS ON THE STREET BUT ALSO I'D PHYSICALLY THROW MY BODY AGAINST THE FENCE WHERE THE DOG WAS PROTESTING.

It took many months of that before the puppy began to get into the act with me and began charging the fence with me instead of trying to run away. Then we trained the dog to only react when I reacted and to remain at ease when I didn't.

Over time, it increased his confidence that now he's completely under control even with the most aggressive advance of another dog unless I give him the alert command. And, if I alert him he and both, shoulder to shoulder, advance on the adversary. He never fails to advance now on command and he never advances without command.

Geesh, you have a lot of work to do now.

LF


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Ugh... Well I definitely don't have the same sentiments as Longfisher (No offense meant)... Puppies are exceptionally resilient and should bounce back quickly. Certainly how you behave will make a difference on how the pup gains confidence, but the more places he goes and is safe, and the more training you do to help in obedience, the safer all around dog he will be. Aggressive behavior is a natural development as they age and express themselves... You don't need to teach a dog how to fight, charge, growl, bark or bite; it is innate. But, teaching them to resist the urge and obey even in a high emotional time is definitely a learned process. Your pup had a scare, unfortunately, probably the first of many (not all dog attacks, but noises, unsure footing, etc), but your guidance and love will help him overcome it all and be a productive dog in society  

Give him a hug and a kiss for me for being a brave pup and moving on afterwards


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog has not been set back a year. It is only 4 months old. And I agree with MRL, that the repsonse -- getting back to happy, everything is fine, is much more important. 

I have a couple of 4 month old boys that sound like freight trains going after each other. They're fine. And I have a 2 year old boy in with Moof who will be a year old in April. I was going to the mailbox when I heard a scuffle. I looked over. They were going at it. I was on the phone, and I was watching, wondering if I had to get in there and separate -- both boys had tails up and they are both big fellows. But then there were butts in the air and front ends down and a game of chase. No problems they were just playing. 

Dogs are rough and tumble. They are not made out of glass. We have to do like my sister when the baby would fall down, "Shake it off" and keep on walking. We don't want to dwell on reactions like crying and whimpering. Yes, remove the other dogs, but just shake it off and keep on trucking. The pup will be fine.

It does not help to go ape-bleep on the other dogs to prove to your dog that you have his back. Not appropriate. Not helpful. I think that the OP did fine. The OP does not need to turn into the Tasmanian Devil to make her dog feel safe. That is probably the worst thing she can do.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

+1 to some extent with Longfisher.. Damage done, without a complete understanding how the pack structure works. Your dog depending on if and how you want/wish your dog to react under pressure, may never live up to your expectations. As I have said in the past, I ran the dog and the dog owner off when Isabella was a pup. It would set the training effort back months, years and potentially I would end up with a dog I could no longer count on, based on her previous experiences. I want to protect my dog, so she will protect my family and know here job, so a fail happened and this is why the general consensus is dog parks are for Golden's, Labs, and other socialized critters, not Dobies, Rotties and GS.. I am truly sorry your dog got hammered into submission before the 1 year old birthday. Again failure is never an option, especially in CA where the riots and earthquakes come monthly !

SGCSG


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

OP, sounds like your puppy is bouncing back fine. Stuff happens with dogs and if you freak out everytime, it is that freaking out that will start affecting the dog. Sounds like you did the best you could to control the situation and I bet your guy noted that. You are clearly not set back years nor will have a ruined dog. Yes, you need to protect the little guy but like life for humans and dogs, it is never a perfect scenario.
While some dogs can be scared, sounds like your little guy might be very resilient.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses. Longfisher, wow, but included in that. 

This wasn't a dog park, but about 1/4 of the people who use it are with their dogs. I'd never take him to a dog park after learning about all the negative experiences here. I am definitely more aware of any off lead activity around us now. 

I'm what they call 'petite' but have been told I have a calm and assertive 'vibe'. He always runs to me when he's scared or looks to me when he's unsure (uncommon occurrences, but nevertheless), and I've never been crazy loud or wild, and I don't shout or charge. We've always approached 'scary' things together, and after seeing me interact with whatever it is, he's quick to come over and reconcile any fear with the scary thing. If there's a loud dog nearby, I usually just keep my ground (or back away to a safe distance), have the dog and their owner walk by/away while remaining calm or stand there if it's behind a fence, and by that time he has usually relaxed after some perkiness and ends up sitting at my feet watching me like "c'mon, why are we just sitting here??". To think that I have to become this aggressively protective 'pack leader' is a bit worrying? 

He's seems to be his normal self, but I will say that the possibility of his future reactions being compromised under pressure as advised by some of you concerns me 

I will, however, definitely stop assuming other dog owners are reasonable and responsible.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> The OP does not need to turn into the Tasmanian Devil to make her dog feel safe. That is probably the worst thing she can do.


I appreciate the Tazzy Devil reference


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

OP (forgot your username, sorry).. Your pup is so young... Let the positives erase the one negative  Thankfully, the dog is more likely to be what he is around all the time.. If obedience, calm, assertive (as in clear concise direction) leadership, with love and education is what he is around the majority of the time, then that is what he is most likely to embrace and mirror. This is one incident that had no injuries (thankfully), and isn't any worse than a reprimand he might have gotten in a pack of his own if he overstepped his boundaries... A little fear, but no damage... He has probably forgotten it (as he was fine with the Rotties the next day), as far as dwelling on it, and will use the experience for the better... Try not to worry


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Hineni7 said:


> OP (forgot your username, sorry).. Your pup is so young... Let the positives erase the one negative  Thankfully, the dog is more likely to be what he is around all the time.. If obedience, calm, assertive (as in clear concise direction) leadership, with love and education is what he is around the majority of the time, then that is what he is most likely to embrace and mirror. This is one incident that had no injuries (thankfully), and isn't any worse than a reprimand he might have gotten in a pack of his own if he overstepped his boundaries... A little fear, but no damage... He has probably forgotten it (as he was fine with the Rotties the next day), as far as dwelling on it, and will use the experience for the better... Try not to worry


I'm with posters like these.

One of the very reasons we SOCIALIZE is because situations like these WILL occur despite our best efforts. We can't control the world full of not so considerate dog owners and not so appropriate dogs.

But we CAN help our pups/dogs be prepared when the CRAZY happens!!! And that's what socialization is about. Exposing our pups to so many different situations with us a a leader that both the dog AND us (we?) are able to bounce back, take a deep breath and then just figure out how to prevent that crazy from happening again!

Our pups CAN learn to put things into perspective. But it takes us being proactive to teach/prepare and guide them thru the world. And the world DOES have other people and dogs in it. The vast majority are wonderful and that's what our dogs need to learn. So when the 'crazy' is running at them they will be mentally and emotionally set up to throw out all the 'calming signals' they can to prevent a real fight, YOU will be more able to behave appropriately to help and not make everything worse, and your pup will come away from the situation with a 'Wow, wasn't that a crazy dog mom?!'

I personally do NOT promote this behavior with a puppy:



> I BECAME THE MOST AGGRESSIVE THING ON THE STREET WHEN MY PUPPY WAS WITH ME.


To me, that would be affirming to my puppy that the world is a horrifying and scary place !!! OH MY GOSH you can't trust anyone! RUN ! BE AFRAID! Be constantly on the HIGHEST ALERT POSSIBLE 100% of the time! STRESS!!! ULCERS! HORRORS! ACK!

I've raised 6 dogs. Met thousands (not kidding) of people with them, plus probably thousands of dogs too. The REAL fights and REAL bad dogs I can probably count on 2 hands. And zero of those I am talking NONE of those 'bad' meeting meant vet visits for any dog (or me  )

A meeting with a bad outcome involves dogs from both sides and MY dogs learn to not start a fight. They learn how to meet appropriate and avoid the crazy with all the 'calming signals' they can toss out to let me deal with the situation to make it as brief as possible. So I can worry and focus 100% on the other dog/owner which makes my 'job' so much easier and more likely to have a good outcome. 

I want a dog that is bold, balanced, confident and secure in the world. Frankly, other dogs are less likely to even want to start up with a dog like that. They don't spark off that weird 'fight' thing that can happen with a dog that is overly aggressive or fearful. My dogs kind of ignore other dogs most of the time, and that is a neutral behavior that avoids the nutso dogs. And when a crazy dog is behind a fence or something I just laugh it off WITH my dog and cross the road with a 'yes' that dog is crazy ! Point of view.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Longfisher said:


> Firstly, without his parents or pack that puppy is absolutely prey to other dogs.
> 
> Think if it this way, in nature the world is actually incredibly violent. For social animals like great cats, wild canines and even dolphins their world is actually just a big landscape over which violent ungovernable gangs fight for supremacy. And, it's a life and death fight, for sure.
> 
> ...


This post is the hard long truth I believe...

Which is why dog parks aren't the best idea...
if you go around kicking and defending your pup against other dogs... Well thats not right... Especially in a public all access dog place... Where dogs will behave in unpredictable ways... Which means you cant defend your pack.. And they will lose respect for you as their leader and protector

I think his post is a bit extreme... Growling to other dog owners on a leash is a bit overboard... Or even trying to attack dogs... Posturing and protection of your own dog will suffice.. But you could avoid strange dogs you dont know altogether.

The best solution is to not put the dog in those situations.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'm with posters like these.
> 
> One of the very reasons we SOCIALIZE is because situations like these WILL occur despite our best efforts. We can't control the world full of not so considerate dog owners and not so appropriate dogs.
> 
> ...


Ive seen stereotypical mild dogs with no aggressive tendencies engage in fight with a strange new dog for no particular reason...

After that you might class those dogs as 'agressive' as they would often always have an issue with each other...

However there is often a first time...
The first time may have been the mild dog being attacked by another agressive dog....

Next time the initially unaggressive dog takes out his aggression on another innocent party...

I used to frequent the dog park every day, without fail...
I still go sometimes for my own enjoyment...

But tread with care...

Socialising is not putting the dog in uncontrollable situations...
Socialising need to be done carefully... You need to socialise with dogs you know get along... In predictable environments...

Sometimes socialising means people will have the dog in a room of people, where everybody ignores it completely... So that the puppy can bond and build engagement with the owner... A scared anti-social puppy on the other hand may need interaction and positive play with other people...

At the end of the day, in training a dog everything is done with a purpose, and to effect that dog positively...

You cant do that in an uncontrolled chaotic environment where everything goes.

Dogs are not like people... 

If you put 20 random dogs in a park for a full day... It is very likely you will see at least one serious fight... 

If you put 20 normal people on a park for a full day there is much less chance you will have a fist fight...

Dogs behave very differently with different dogs with different backgrounds/management skills/temperment/training.

Also scared dogs... or Overly confident balanced dogs that keep to themselves are the most likely to get involved and bite... 
Scared dogs will run... And be harrassed by the rest of the dogs... They will be an Omega... And will get bullied...

Confident dogs not interested in other dogs, will get more annoyed when a dog starts sniffing or mounting them... 
They dont want this behaviour, and have a good chance of asserting their place and putting the infringing dog in its place.

Basically what I am saying is you dont know how your dog will react to unpredictable behaviours of other dogs all the time...
Your dog may be the most innocent dog on the planet... If he gets bullied enough he will eventually lash out...

If a dog shows dominance just by putting his head over another dogs shoulder... This in itself could start sparking agression...
People at dog parks dont even think this is an issue... They think mounting is ok... 

Each dog can incite behaviours in each and every other dog... and this is beyond our control.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Very insightful information, thanks all! I am infinitely more aware of our surroundings now, and have actually tweaked our exercise time in public places so that it is less busy, and I've managed to make some friends with other stable older dog owners and puppy owners who are more than happy to have play dates. It's only been a couple days, but I've noticed that while the older dogs don't really like to play like he does, they have a very calming influence on him and he his able to learn his manners in this group in a much safer way (I feel).

I think I may just keep it like this until he is much older and has more solid confidence. Is this a good idea? Will the good behaviour he adopts amongst a familiar group of dogs transfer over to meeting strange dogs?


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## DixieGSD (Aug 22, 2012)

Your pup is not ruined by any means. Dixie and I have been charged at by a few dogs when she was younger (I am 5 3' 120 pounds). One dog broke his fence (wood) and charged at us (walking down the road on the other side of the street) when she was about 3 months, and I yelled at him and stomped at him and he ran back to his yard and we continued on our way. She was sort of a nervous pup anyways so we really worked on that with her to gain her confidence. And than when she was about a year there was 2 labs that thought about charging us and she did stand her ground and i did throw some rocks at them to get them to turn away (which thankfully they did and we turned onto a different path) She didn't like any dog's running up to her, but after those incident's we really tried to play with nice, calm dog's and that helped her a lot. When she was about 1 1/2 we were walking down the road and I saw these 2 HUGE pitbull mixes and I tried to turn down the next block but they saw us and came charging ( i did try to stop them but it was like they didn't even realize I was there). Dixie did try to stand her ground but these dog's wanted blood ( they didn't get any thankfully!!!!) so I HAD to let go of her leash ( we were not far from home) and an old guy stopped and grabbed her and tried beating these dogs off with his cane, which did not work and he had let go of her leash and she ran towards home ( thankfully she is a SUPER fast runner).. But all those incident's yes were bad, but now she's a little over 2 and meet's new dog's fine, she is not afraid of everything and is pretty confident. At another dog place we went to (recently), 2 huge malamutes came rushing to her and she stopped and greeted them, they turned out to be nice (and owner's were there), so i was thankful for that.

He is a puppy, and as long as you show him not all dog's are mean, and build his confidence he will turn out fine.


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