# hello!



## mama2babyboys (Feb 13, 2015)

Hi! I have 2 gsd pups, 3 weeks apart in age. Edan is 14 weeks, Max is 11 weeks, each weigh about 25-27 lbs. 

Anyway, Im giving Eukanuba Large puppy dry kibble in the morning after our run, with Dinovite and Omega3 mixed in. In the evening they get some rice, hard boiled eggs, ground meat. 

Is this an ok diet?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Welcome !!!

I'll give you the obligatory suggestion....you have to post pictures of the two pups....simply have to...

Diet sounds good enough....I'm no expert on a kibble diet as I feed raw. 


Wow....2 pups....what a blast you must be having !!

SuperG


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## mama2babyboys (Feb 13, 2015)

We are having a blast! I want to raw feed, but it seems so expensive... whats your recipe?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Katherine, SuperG could be an expert on feeding raw, or he may not even own a dog. Are you really going to trust your pup's growth-diet to someone you have zero knowledge of? You need to go and find some accepted and well-documented guidelines of how to feed your pup a diet other than dog food. There is nothing wrong with adding a hard boiled egg occasionally or a piece of cheese, and certainly feed healthy treats when training, but unless you know what you are doing, you can throw your pup's balance off by doing RAW or Homemade without knowledge.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I used my bro in law as my resource since he had 3 dogs which he had raw fed for years.

I completely hassled him continually...unrelenting...but it brought great reassurance to my research involving numerous sources.

I would strongly suggest...perform your own due diligence...because you are the responsible one at the end of the day.....formulate a plan based on your DD.....and then start bouncing it off of others.

However, if you can find another raw feeder with thriving dogs and a history of success..who happens to be your bro in law...etc. It makes the leap easier.


Cheers,

SuperG


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## mama2babyboys (Feb 13, 2015)

No i wasnt going to take his recipe and implement it, i must wanted to know what it was so i could research it. Geez, this is a very hostile forum.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Mama2,

Forgot to ask....2 GSD pups at once....I'm curious....

Keep us updated on their progress...as I am interested to hear if it's double trouble or maybe a different experience most of us single pups owners experience with some consistency. I wonder if you might get a break in certain sectors due to the pups exercising themselves with their antics and energy. The dynamic will definitely be different....

Oh ..just read your post...no..it's not hostile.....just "spirited" like your two pups will soon become..if not already. It's a great forum...you can learn a ton in here from some of the members.


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You are a new owner of puppies. We had a guy who was trying to raise his dog on macaroni noodles once. You asked some questions about what you are feeding. Sure it sounds fine. But GSDs are notorious for digestive issues, growth issues, cancers. Since you asked, it was the right thing to tell you that it is NOT ok to pick some things dogs like to eat out of the air and use them as a major portion of their diet. There are some factors that are extremely important, such as your calcium to phosphorus ratio and if you allow your pups to grow on an inappropriate diet, it can have serious consequences down the road. 


**OT petty comments removed by ADMIN. Stay on topic or do not post. Thank you. ADMIN Lisa


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

mama2babyboys said:


> No i wasnt going to take his recipe and implement it, i must wanted to know what it was so i could research it. Geez, this is a very hostile forum.



Yeah, sorry man. You seem to have attracted the meanies. 

Eukanuba is not the best food. But there are lots worse. I always suggest that people feed the very best food they can afford. And stick with what works for your dogs. There is a good website that breakdowns dog foods and give you a good idea of quality. Dogfoodadvisor.com. 

Good luck with your puppies!!! Pictures please!!!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Hey ..I'm no meanie.....I think it's awesome she has 2 GSD pups.....a bit envious as well.


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

gsdsar said:


> Yeah, sorry man. You seem to have attracted the meanies.
> 
> Eukanuba is not the best food. But there are lots worse. I always suggest that people feed the very best food they can afford. And stick with what works for your dogs. There is a good website that breakdowns dog foods and give you a good idea of quality. Dogfoodadvisor.com.
> 
> Good luck with your puppies!!! Pictures please!!!


 Dogfoodadvisor gives my food 3 stars. It gives the Eukanuba 2 stars. The thing is, that Eukanuba is going to cost you more than what my food costs you, with worse ingredients. 

Here is Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy food: 

*Ingredients:*
Chicken, Corn Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal (Natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Brewers Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Brewers Dried Yeast, Fish Meal, Potassium Chloride, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Fructooligosaccharides, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), DL-Methionine, Vitamins (Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Inositol, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Vitamin E Supplement, Marigold, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract 
*Guaranteed Analysis:*
Crude Protein (min.) 26.00%, Crude Fat (min.) 14.00%, Crude Fiber (max.) 5.00%, Moisture (max.) 10.00%, Calcium (min.) 0.65%, Phosphorus (min.)n 0.53%, Vitamin E (min.) 140 IU/kg, Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (min.) 0.10%*, Omega-6 Fatty Acids (min.) 2.00%*, Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min.) 0.40%*, Glucosamine (min.) 375 mg/kg*, Chondroitin Sulfate (min.) 35 mg/kg* 
*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles. *Caloric Content:*
361.96 kcal/cup.

Ok, at Tractor Supply Company, it costs 46.99 for a 33# bag. 



Now, lets look at Diamond Naturals Chicken and Rice:
*Ingredients: 
*Chicken, chicken meal, whole grain brown rice, white rice, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), oatmeal, dried plain beet pulp, egg product, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid. 

*Guaranteed Analysis: *
Protein: 26%, Fat: 16% *Caloric Content: *
3,708 kcal/kg (368 kcal/cup) Calculated ME 

At Tractor Supply Company, it costs $28 for 40 pounds. 

An independent reviewer gives this food one star more than the Eukanuba. While the Eukanuba costs more, for less food. Protein is similar, fat on mine a little higher. Calories similar so you have to feed about the same amount. 

This is an adult food, but I wean puppies onto it. It has better ingredients, for far cheaper. Your getting stung for double the cost -- better than double really, at 20 dollars more per bag, and 7 pounds less food. 

I would rather be called a meanie than watch someone getting fleeced by these crooks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I could do a ingredient by ingredient critique here, but then I would probably be a meanie. What you need to realize is that your chicken is with water so when that comes out in the process, it is way down on the list. Fine, so is mine. But yours is followed by Chicken by-product meal -- that is where your dog is getting its protein. What are by-products? Everything we normally wouldn't eat, not organs that have good nutritional value for the most part, but beaks, and feet, and entrails, and God knows what. 

And corn. Corn isn't the worst thing in the world, but it is a low cost filler that has little to no value to dogs, and can cause some issues. Most of it is GMO. Generally, you are not getting human grade corn, but whatever is molding in the bottom of the silo, shoved to dog food as a last ditch effort for some gain. The thing is, your dog should be getting its protein from a good meat source, like chicken meal. Which is chicken less the water that makes up most live critters -- 70% water.

Ok, I stop now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I feed raw and have for years. I did not feel comfortable feeding growing pups a home made diet. I fed my pup Bravo Balance for the first several months. He had at least one meal a day of that. And either the other meal was homemade or commercial. 

the commercial was nice because I could make balls out of it and use it for training so he worked for his meal. The homemade consisted of 40% raw meaty bone, 50% meat and 10% organ. I use a lower percentage of bone because I use neck which is more bone than meat. I supplemented his growing bones with vitamin C.

There are several breeders on here that feed raw and several people who fed their growing pups only home made. It's not rocket science. 

You can find co-ops, wholesalers, local butchers for suppliers. I use my local butchers as much as possible and there is a wholesaler I buy from a couple times a year.

As far as dog food goes, I feed two of our dogs kibble. I really like how they are doing on the Victor dog food. I find that they have a higher percentage of protein from meat in their food than many more expensive kibbles. I dont' know what they have for large breed puppies which need a lower calcium/phos. ratio. You could contact the company and ask.
Victor Super Premium Dog Food, Pet Food, GMO, Free

I buy ours from this retailer.
Dog Food for Highly Active Dogs | Free Shipping at SportDogFood.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here is my issue with this...



mama2babyboys said:


> Hi! I have 2 gsd pups, 3 weeks apart in age. Edan is 14 weeks, Max is 11 weeks, each weigh about 25-27 lbs. .... after our run


How long of a run? Is this you going for a run and taking the puppies with you? Or just letting them run for exercise? Running (like long runs where they are actually running with you) are hard on a growing dogs joints.



mama2babyboys said:


> Anyway, Im giving Eukanuba Large puppy dry kibble in the morning


So this is a balanced diet. Not the best food in the world but it's commercial so it has to meet federal nutritional guidelines for dogs.



mama2babyboys said:


> In the evening they get some rice, hard boiled eggs, ground meat.
> 
> Is this an ok diet?


This is not balanced. First, they have no need for rice. It's just carbs and starches they don't need. Dogs get their energy from fat, not carbs like us.

Second, I see meat and meat. Where is the calcium? Other minerals? I would find some chicken necks, quarters, legs, thighs and incorporate that into this meal minus the rice. The general rule of thumb is 80meat/10 bone/10 organ OR to make it easier on us! 50 raw meaty bone/40 meat/10 organ. If it's a quarter, I up the RMB to 75% because there is a lot of meat. for legs and thighs, I would keep it around 50% of their meal.

Feed them 2% of their body weight and feel their ribs on a regular basis to make sure they are staying slim.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> I feed raw and have for years. I did not feel comfortable feeding growing pups a home made diet. I fed my pup Bravo Balance for the first several months. He had at least one meal a day of that. And either the other meal was homemade or commercial.
> 
> the commercial was nice because I could make balls out of it and use it for training so he worked for his meal. The homemade consisted of 40% raw meaty bone, 50% meat and 10% organ. I use a lower percentage of bone because I use neck which is more bone than meat. I supplemented his growing bones with vitamin C.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it is not rocket science, but my point is to not take advice from a forum on feeding a growing puppy without doing your own research. Saying, "Is this ok?" I was pointing out that anyone with any level of knowledge could answer that question and the OP walks away thinking, great, I'm doing good, and by the time the pup shows indications that his level of nutrition is not sufficient, damage is already done, which may not be reversible.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here are some good old threads for you
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...09-how-much-feed-starting-puppy-raw-diet.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2305-how-much-raw-should-i-feed-my-puppy.html

I see Jane, Laurie and Lisa replied in these threads. Any of them would be worth sending a message too for more information on raw feeding.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Well back to the OP... The first dog I had got Old Blue... a Old Roy knock off from the local feed store. She lived to be 13. The next dogs we had got Science Diet, it was supposed to be the best at the time. They did fine with the food and lived to decent old ages. My current group get Tractor Supply's grain free. They seem to be doing fine. 

I figure as long as your dog is healthy, the coat shiny and not to heavy or thin you are doing ok. I try to not get too hung up on brands.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Genetics play a large role in longevity as well as diet and exercise. Our Boxer lived to 13. the vets were amazed by her. She was fed Purina the first 10 years and raw the last 3.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Genetics play a large role in longevity as well as diet and exercise. Our Boxer lived to 13. the vets were amazed by her. She was fed Purina the first 10 years and raw the last 3.


Many things go into making a healthy log lived dog, I agree. Put your dog on the food that works for him/her and fits in your budget.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have removed some OT posts. 

OP, there are two good raw feeding forums on this board, one for puppies and one for adults, if you would like to learn more. There are also a lot of resources out there for your own research. Raw feeding is not rocket science, but it does take some thought and more time to deal with than kibble. In my 16 years of raw feeding (7 weaned raw fed litters and multiple dogs and puppies) I have only seen one dog screwed up and that was due to a lazy owner. 

My personal take is that the diet you are feeding is really not OK. If you want to feed extra then I would just add in a bit to each meal. If you want to feed partial raw and partial kibble then find good RMB to use as mentioned earlier and feed that at one meal and the kibble at the other. I have a lot of friends that feed this way. 

OR, find a very good kibble that you can afford and your dog does well on without a lot of fillers.


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## WirelessG (Jan 22, 2013)

I used this for most of my raw food program. There is also a lot of information in the BARF/Raw Feeding section (that's where I cam across the rawdogranch link). The frustrating part is that most raw food enthusiasts are not experts and most experts are not raw food enthusiasts. I've asked different vets about it and most have given me a pedestrian answer. They did recommend a multivitamin and is use this multivitamin.

I've been feeding my older dog raw for 4 years and my younger dog for about a year. I try to mix it up between chicken thighs, chicken gizzards, ground beef, ground turkey, raw eggs and canned mackerel. I've never felt comfortable feeding raw pork. Chicken has been giving my older dog horrific gas, so I've had to take that out of his diet. Every other feeding I will add a handful of green beans or carrots (typically frozen since canned has a lot of salt). A couple times a week or every other week I add a spoonful or two of yogurt (one with live and active cultures). Some say raw eggs are not good due to potential salmonella contamination, but I've never seen them get sick after having an egg.

I agree with Selzer and do your research on your own and make sure you're comfortable with what you are doing. Good Luck!

(PS Selzer was mean to Super G:laugh::laugh


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sadly, I think we lost a member over this thread.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Sadly, I think we lost a member over this thread.


Yeah....I kind of think you are correct. Hopefully, I didn't scare her away...I don't think I did. I do know sometimes it is difficult for members of the forum to temper their responses to first timers....I'm sure I am guilty of this especially with my sarcasm at times. I appreciate that some people believe it is better not to "sugarcoat" an answer but if by doing as such....it drives the OP away....the greater good has not been served.

Anyway, I'll remain optimistic the mama2babyboys is still checking in on occasion and understands that even though egos exist...the bottom line is a forum which exists for the benefit of all who care to engage.

SuperG


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Unfortunately hostile attacks on new members are the norm on this forum...

There is a way to speak to people asking innocent questions and seeking help.

As far as I am concerned most people engaged in these forums are not experts or perfect themselves.
None of us are. 

So a bit less attacking and a bit more helping.

I really get tired of reading posts from the same people and same point of views agreeably nodding with each other, and anyone who suggests something different is often cast out.

I get giving completely negligent people a reality check... Especially if they are not new to dogs..

But the op was really trying to get a bit of innocent information.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I must be missing something here as I don't see any "attacks". I see straight forward and to the point answers. 
Should people not post what they feel is important?

Would it be better to say "what your feeding is ok, Raw is ok, some foods are better than ok but whatever works for your dog's is the best way to go".

For the record, I fed Iams and Eukanuba many years ago before it was sold to P&G. Back then it was a decent food. After being sold, the quality and ingredients took a nose dive. My dogs all fell apart and looked horrid. It's not a food I would recommend. 

I feed Raw so obviously that's my first choice. If faced with having feed a kibble I would start with Orijen.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Lykoz said:


> Unfortunately hostile attacks on new members are the norm on this forum...


I disagree! That's painting all of us with one broad stroke.....hardly fair and to be honest, it's now you attacking the members of this forum

I have been here a long time and continue to read and learn daily. You don't have to be posting here to learn. We all have the ability to respond or ignore any and all posts. 

Yep we all have bad days and sometimes post or respond in a hostile way.....that's where the Mods come in ?.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Saphire said:


> I must be missing something here as I don't see any "attacks". I see straight forward and to the point answers.
> Should people not post what they feel is important? .



Mods removed a big chunk of back and forth bickering.


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