# Annoyingly staring at people after starting IPO training



## BoostedEK (Apr 3, 2020)

Hello, our dog is almost 3 years old and we've started IPO protection stage training with him a half year ago, we train two times per week. Everything is going fine there, dog likes it very much, he's progressing quite good and etc. 

However, there is one side-effect which is growing more and more. My dog became much more suspicious and interested in people. Before he would only stare at strange looking people, like bums, drunkards, or some workers doing something loudly. But now he started starring at normal people, who aren't even looking into him and just going on with their business.. And to such extent that it annoys us, and pretty sure it makes people uncomfortable then they see big shephard starring at them from distance. He doesn't really do anything apart from staring, so no raised fur on the back, no growling or barking. But it's not a happy stare with an open mouth. 

Have anyone else noticed such behaviour change after starting IPO? Is this normal and how do you address it? Since I for sure do not want him to stare down every one who is just going to a bus stop or walking home..


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Why do you care if your dog stares at someone. Why do you consider it a stare vs. just looking? Some people's children.

(edited by car2ner. Keep it civil Chip, thanks)


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

When my big-boy was a young dog, he mistook someone in overalls as a "helper". If your dog is new at IPO/ IGP he may be trying to figure out how what he does on the field relates to the world off the field. Talk to your training director about it. They can give you tips on teaching your dog the difference. 

As far as other people being uncomfortable, that will happen just because he is a GSD. I've had people move way out of the way or leave the room when they see us coming, even with our dogs totally relaxed and ignoring them. I've also had people actually stop their cars and want to chat through their windows because they love GSDs. You'll get both reactions within minutes of each other. As far as people asking to pet our dogs, typically I say NO if it is my gal dog and Yes if my big-boy seems interested in them. That is amusing to me since most people don't ask to pet my big-boy (he looks huge) and ask to pet my smaller gal-dog. She's not interested in strangers approaching her so a healthy respect that results in some "social distance" is fine with me.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Why do you care if your dog stares at someone. Why do you consider it a stare vs. just looking? Some people's children.
> 
> (edited by car2ner. Keep it civil Chip, thanks)


If you have nothing helpful to say then don’t say anything at all.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

You started training during an age where dogs are reaching full maturity. there is a chance that this level of suspicion is how your boy would have developed anyhow. as someone else said once... the training just reveals what’s already genetically there.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Is your concern that your dog will attack one of these random people? What kind of training do they do with your dog? Most sport dogs who aren’t trained for real life scenarios have an equipment focus, and pretty much all of them know how to recognize a decoy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, your dog is 3. He's hitting maturity and will be coming into his personality. Second, you've been working on protection but what about obedience? 

Like @Bearshandler said, IGP dogs are very much equipment focused and are situational. IMO, this is just your dog and you need to increase your obedience to not allow him to stare people down.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

You have a big and dominant breed with natural guarding instincts that you're training in IPO protection ..... and you're annoyed that you're dog is alert and staring at strangers. Is that right?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

We don’t do IPO and my dogs both stare at people. They don’t act on it. I’m not sure I understand what you are worried about. Do you think he will start attacking people on the street because he’s staring? I had my younger dog in a small group class in the park. We were on a break and suddenly my dog froze and alerted me to something on the ground in the distance. It looked maybe like a discarded blanket. Then it moved slightly and I saw it was a homeless person sleeping. I looked around and the five other dogs there were oblivious. Mine kept silently alerting and was fixated on the person, so I distracted him, but he kept wanting to watch. I finally got him turned around in a Down so he could cool off, because it was a hot day and he needed a rest. I asked the trainer why none of the other dogs noticed the person, and he said you have a working line, he’s bred to notice anything different on the horizon. The other dogs don’t? Not at all. To me, a dog not noticing every little movement, smell or unexpected object is unusual. They were all oblivious, and their owners were, too. I like a dog that alerts me to possible dangers.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Could it be that you are seeing him with different eyes now he is in IPO? I would get his focus back on you when he does it. Does his body get tense as well?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

curious thread for me? I start a pup young on the reizangel and the game begins with either a sit or a down every time. It's at least as much about building obedience as it is about building bite from day 1. As pup grows, toys get progressively bigger until the bite is big enough for a puppy sleeve, and still the game begins with a down or a sit everytime. So obedience first, all the way, all along. And by the time a dog is mature enough to even begin to perceive or react to threat/bite situations, it's already ingrained in dogs brain #1) you couldn't ever possibly loose the bitegame and #2) if you want to bite, you have to calm down, shut up, and wait for my command to do so.

I'm not saying right or wrong, I'm just saying that's what works for me here...


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## BoostedEK (Apr 3, 2020)

Thanks everyone for replies
I guess I need to clarify a bit.

I don't think our dog would attack someone randomly. I just want to be more relaxed in our casual walks, because now instead of doing toilet things he chooses to stare at random people 30 meters away going on with their business. Or whenever we meet someone in staircase and etc.

Regarding training, we do obedience as well, and we're doing it from the moment we got him. He has BH exam passed already. We also live in apartament so he's been around random people his whole life, and most of the time he didn't care about normal looking people until recently.

I've asked my trainer already, he said he's happy on that because it means the dog would probably have courage to stand up and defend us if someone actually attacked us on the street. And that we should ask for obedience then we need. But I guess I just want him to be more relaxed overall and not get fixated to look into random passers by without asking him for obedience in our casual walks around the neighborhood


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

As long as he doesn't react, I think he's in a good place. If it's more than observance, give him a command, get his attention, do a couple quick turns and continue.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

When I’m walking my dog and just strolling about without a formal heel (especially at night), my dog will stop what he’s doing and stare at strangers until they pass us. He doesn’t lunge, bark, or approach the strangers. He just watches until they pass. Then he will continue about his business of smelling grass or whatever. I don’t mind as long as he doesn’t react.

German Shepherds have more situational awareness than other breeds. My dog won’t go to the bathroom unless he sweeps the neighborhood for things that are out of place...LOL. He’s never going to be relaxed dog that goes about his business without first checking everything out.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> #2) if you want to bite, you have to calm down, shut up, and wait for my command to do so.
> 
> I'm not saying right or wrong, I'm just saying that's what works for me here...


This is counterproductive for a SCH dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It doesn't sound like a problem at this moment.

The way I got around Fama wanting to fight every stranger on the planet was by switching equipment. Leash on the harness and you are in charge, for the most part. Leash on the flat collar, doing detection. Leash on the prong and you are in OB mode.

Forrest Micke has a video on charging the fur saver. It lets your dog know when it's time to turn it on.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> This is counterproductive for a SCH dog.


That is a good point. All of the bites in schutzhund are the dog reacting without a command. You are kinda allowed to use one for the long bite. You definitely don’t want the dog to shut up in the bark and hold. There is also a preference among a lot of people for an active guard after out vs a silent one.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> This is counterproductive for a SCH dog.


 a confident pup with a well trained bite is never counterproductive


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> This is counterproductive for a SCH dog.


What should he be doing?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> It doesn't sound like a problem at this moment.
> 
> The way I got around Fama wanting to fight every stranger on the planet was by switching equipment. Leash on the harness and you are in charge, for the most part. Leash on the flat collar, doing detection. Leash on the prong and you are in OB mode.
> 
> Forrest Micke has a video on charging the fur saver. It lets your dog know when it's time to turn it on.


Typical for service dog work right?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> It doesn't sound like a problem at this moment.
> 
> The way I got around Fama wanting to fight every stranger on the planet was by switching equipment. Leash on the harness and you are in charge, for the most part. Leash on the flat collar, doing detection. Leash on the prong and you are in OB mode.
> 
> Forrest Micke has a video on charging the fur saver. It lets your dog know when it's time to turn it on.


You know I thought of you and fans when I was having a conversation the other day. It was about done dogs who can their some pretty extreme aggression. We also takes about one of their litters being ready to fight before they were even ready to leave. I told her sone people love those types of dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> It doesn't sound like a problem at this moment.
> 
> The way I got around Fama wanting to fight every stranger on the planet was by switching equipment. Leash on the harness and you are in charge, for the most part. Leash on the flat collar, doing detection. Leash on the prong and you are in OB mode.
> 
> Forrest Micke has a video on charging the fur saver. It lets your dog know when it's time to turn it on.


hmmm....maybe I should look at this for Faren. Except with triggers.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> All of the bites in schutzhund are the dog reacting without a command. You are kinda allowed to use one for the long bite. You definitely don’t want the dog to shut up in the bark and hold. There is also a preference among a lot of people for an active guard after out vs a silent one.


 the one that wants to play the game will have developed enough equipment association to bark right when it get's to the club


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> you the one that wants to play the game will have developed enough equipment association to bark right when it get's to the club


Maybe your dog. I have reason to disagree.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm sure it has more to do with an individual pup's temperament than anything else. I'm not trying to pretend to be a gsd/bsd expert here. Where I come from any dog that will engage the helper and endure the nerfbat gauntlet is_ WILDLY _above average for it's breed.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm sure it has more to do with an individual pup's temperament than anything else. I'm not trying to pretend to be a gsd/bsd expert here. Where I come from any dog that will engage the helper and endure the nerfbat gauntlet is_ WILDLY _above average for it's breed.


That is true. If a dig is taught to be quiet for a bite, you’re going to have a different kind of battle getting him going for IGP. There are dogs that I see on the street, there are dogs I train with at club, and there are are dogs that work with one of the same trainers as me. All three present very different levels of drive and expectations. Average depends on which group or groups I’m comparing. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert either. I just see a lot of different dogs regularly.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

your level of schH/ipo expertise is infinitely above mine, BH, as is your level of gsd expertise  I am only able to work from my experience with other breeds, and my ddr "working line" gsd pup is quite unlike anything I'm familiar with


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

There is time to bark and a time to be quiet


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

WNGD said:


> You have a big and dominant breed with natural guarding instincts that you're training in IPO protection ..... and you're annoyed that you're dog is alert and staring at strangers. Is that right?


Bingo.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

kinda strays away from the op, but maybe it's a good time to ask? I look at this foto and see a real dog with a real job doing some real work. I see a dog in prey. I see a dog not engaging even though it could. I see a dog not trying to kill anybody. I see a dog that knows full well should anybody resist him, his handler will immediately deploy lethal force. I see a dog playing a game, and winning everytime, because the thought he might ever even possibly loose the game has never even occurred to him. 

what does anyone else see?

AND, having recently scaled that image I observe considerably light coat color across the topline. I know this was at least somewhat common in the old am show/lance of fran jo type. Is it common in other "lines" as well? highline? west german working?


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 565552
> 
> 
> kinda strays away from the op, but maybe it's a good time to ask? I look at this foto and see a real dog with a real job doing some real work. I see a dog in prey. I see a dog not engaging even though it could. I see a dog not trying to kill anybody. I see a dog that knows full well should anybody resist him, his handler will immediately deploy lethal force. I see a dog playing a game, and winning everytime, because the thought he might ever even possibly loose the game has never even occurred to him.
> ...


Would prefer a 15 second video, but I’m guessing the guy in the orange shirt got nailed or if he was six inches closer to the dog, he would have.

I don’t know how you draw engagement versus non engagement from a still pic .... but ok.

The handler has a gun drawn, how would the dog, then, already not expected to be engaged?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

once upon a time I read the statement of work lackland used to eval potential candidates. At that time they used 2 commands

1) get him (bark/snap/lunge)
2) hold him (bite)

that looks like a #1 to me? I suppose #1 is a form of engagement?

I assume dog was ready willing and able to bite but didn't because he wasn't ordered to?

I assume handler's gun resolves the situation when anyone resists the dog?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I see a dog on a tight line. The handler didn't want him to engage. The guy is running and the handler is yelling. The dog is jumping (one back foot off the ground) instead of driving towards the target. If he wanted to bite the guy, his leg is in range.

I'll pass.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I see a dog on a tight line. The handler didn't want him to engage. The guy is running and the handler is yelling. The dog is jumping (one back foot off the ground) instead of driving towards the target. If he wanted to bite the guy, his leg is in range.
> 
> I'll pass.


..... and in the next frame, he got him!

😉


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Damicodric said:


> ..... and in the next frame, he got him!
> 
> 😉


And then what? All the important stuff is missing.

Oh, and the US military doesn't employ a single dog that looks like that.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

NO question in my mind that dog would bite on command. I guess ultimately what I really see is a dog for whom "it's just business, not personal." That's the temperament I'm used to. Prey, I guess?

whereas my "working line" ddr gsd pup seems to take it all VERY personally, and that attitude is all new for me. I don't question the effectiveness, I'm just trying to learn as I go here.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> And then what? All the important stuff is missing.
> 
> Oh, and the US military doesn't employ a single dog that looks like that.


Agreed. Noticed that.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> NO question in my mind that dog would bite on command. I guess ultimately what I really see is a dog for whom "it's just business, not personal." That's the temperament I'm used to. Prey, I guess?
> 
> whereas my "working line" ddr gsd pup seems to take it all VERY personally, and that attitude is all new for me. I don't question the effectiveness, I'm just trying to learn as I go here.


You're the expert here. Please explain how a still picture of a restrained dog lunging at someone can reveal his temperament? I can find you 3 poodles on my block that will react the same in the same situation.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

To me, this issue is another fault of IGP. The barking in IGP and during IGP training is learned/conditioned display of aggression but not necessarily an indication of drive or aggression. I know a guy who trained his dog to the North American schH III Championship doing all the helper work himself. What percentage of IGP clubs don’t use a whip which typically stimulates prey not aggression? The drives and aggression often seen in IGP are often masking underlying deficits.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I don't disagree, but I see advantages and disadvantages to either or in different deployment situations

maybe it's just what I'm used to? but I'm afraid to agitate little igor because he takes it way too seriously

for me, I mean. I'm not trying to tell anyone else how or what to train.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't disagree, but I see advantages and disadvantages to either or in different deployment situations
> 
> maybe it's just what I'm used to? but I'm afraid to agitate little igor because he takes it way too seriously
> 
> for me, I mean. I'm not trying to tell anyone else how or what to train.


What is "too seriously?"


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If he takes it seriously there is no need to agitate. We never agitate dogs at our club. Often we have to do just the opposite. Teaching very correction bite mechanics paired with progressively increased environmental stressors during bite work teach a dog how to fight.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> To me, this issue is another fault of IGP. The barking in IGP and during IGP training is learned/conditioned display of aggression but not necessarily an indication of drive or aggression. I know a guy who trained his dog to the North American schH III Championship doing all the helper work himself. What percentage of IGP clubs don’t use a whip which typically stimulates prey not aggression? The drives and aggression often seen in IGP are often masking underlying deficits.


No it is not learned by every dog in IGP there are dogs that actually bark naturally and yes, have natural aggression. I know I own one. Don’t assume every dog doing IGP are trained in the way you described even though you love to believe it.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Seriously can mean different things to different observers, often with assessment of intent being inaccurate.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Barking is a display and does not necessarily reflect intention, especially when a dog is on leash. What is natural aggression. If you took your dog to downtown Detroit and a bad guy kicked him in the head, what do you think he would do?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Seriously can mean different things to different observers, often with assessment of intent being inaccurate.


with the other breeds, agitation was just part of "the game." I assume prey/play because it really didn't make them "aggressive" beyond training time


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

BO,
What would describe as the most pressure your dog has been exposed to?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Barking is a display and does not necessarily reflect intention, especially when a dog is on leash. What is natural aggression. If you took your dog to downtown Detroit and a bad guy kicked him in the head, what do you think he would do?


Plus the leash doesn't need to be there. OB can do the same thing, causing frustration.

Too serious isn't really in my vocabulary. I love fight in a dog and I encourage it. I think a balanced dog is fun to work and live with. Chase it, bite it, fight it, own it. This is the kind of dog I like.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 565552
> 
> 
> kinda strays away from the op, but maybe it's a good time to ask? I look at this foto and see a real dog with a real job doing some real work. I see a dog in prey. I see a dog not engaging even though it could. I see a dog not trying to kill anybody. I see a dog that knows full well should anybody resist him, his handler will immediately deploy lethal force. I see a dog playing a game, and winning everytime, because the thought he might ever even possibly loose the game has never even occurred to him.
> ...


If that dog was going after that guy with any real intent, they guy would have been bit. It has nothing to do with prey, defense, or any other aggression. That dog straight up isn’t trying to bite for real. If I tried to hold my dogs back like that, I would get dragged. The fading color happens in all lines. There’s a German show line in my club that has it. I’ve never seen a real dig with a command to hold that wouldn’t bite if the guy was running like that.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Barking is a display and does not necessarily reflect intention, especially when a dog is on leash. What is natural aggression. If you took your dog to downtown Detroit and a bad guy kicked him in the head, what do you think he would do?


Same as yours.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> To me, this issue is another fault of IGP. The barking in IGP and during IGP training is learned/conditioned display of aggression but not necessarily an indication of drive or aggression. I know a guy who trained his dog to the North American schH III Championship doing all the helper work himself. What percentage of IGP clubs don’t use a whip which typically stimulates prey not aggression? The drives and aggression often seen in IGP are often masking underlying deficits.


You could say the same thing for any sport. My club doesn’t use a whip at all. The trainer I work with does. Popping a whip may stimulate prey. That is not the only use for a whip. It is a whip after all. You can definitely use it to bring our real aggression.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> If he takes it seriously there is no need to agitate. We never agitate dogs at our club. Often we have to do just the opposite. Teaching very correction bite mechanics paired with progressively increased environmental stressors during bite work teach a dog how to fight.


How do you get a defensive dig going without agitation?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

How does a whip bring out anything but predatory aggression unless the helper hits the dog with it?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> How does a whip bring out anything but predatory aggression unless the helper hits the dog with it?


Looks like we have a winner. You make this assumption that digs aren’t being hit with them.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You don’t necessarily want defensive aggression as much as you want fight. Fight is developed by teaching a dog that real pressure usually involves physical contact and pressure goes away when the dog stays in the fight. That is very different that cracking a whip at a dog.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

BO, There is no way to know how a dog will respond to a situation until it happens.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

BH,
How often is your dog hit with the whip and where is he hit?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Chase it, bite it, fight it, own it. This is the kind of dog I like.


 me too, or at least so I thought. But for me, here, too much aggression comes at the expense of utility. I don't need a dog that genuinely wants to kill a stranger just for walking down the road. Sleeve junkies seem to understand that, but I'm not too sure about this low prey ddr gsd stuff? So far, so good, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. He's quite unlike the type I'm used to.
On the upside he is great with my animals. Hard to believe, but I've actually seen him count my stock. He'll keep looking until he checks/finds every last one. On his own, I mean. I didn't train that, he just does.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

That is a good sign. Generally animal aggression and aggression toward children reflects a temperament fault. There are always exceptions like chasing a squirrel, chipmunk or rabbit and killing it. Discernment is a valuable trait.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> me too, or at least so I thought. But for me, here, too much aggression comes at the expense of utility. I don't need a dog that genuinely wants to kill a stranger just for walking down the road. Sleeve junkies seem to understand that, but I'm not too sure about this low prey ddr gsd stuff? So far, so good, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. He's quite unlike the type I'm used to.
> On the upside he is great with my animals. Hard to believe, but I've actually seen him count my stock. He'll keep looking until he checks/finds every last one. On his own, I mean. I didn't train that, he just does.


Aggression and control are 2 sides of a coin. Maybe try bonding with him instead of testing his mettle by subjecting him to an austere lifestyle. His response may be different when he's looking to you for understanding, like a puppy.

This is a breed that thrives with a partner, not some LGD that could care less.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> BH,
> How often is your dog hit with the whip and where is he hit?


Depends on what is happening in the session. The dogs are typically hit in the front area/legs. It’s not something that constantly needs to be done to get the desired effects. It’s not an all the time thing.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

That is not much pressure because the dog easily learns to move his feet and it is a sting in a part of the body that is not that sensitive. Plus is it a single type of pressure. I know it is a common practice but that doesn’t speak to its value.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> That is not much pressure because the dog easily learns to move his feet and it is a sting in a part of the body that is not that sensitive. Plus is it a single type of pressure. I know it is a common practice but that doesn’t speak to its value.


I didn’t say anything about his much pressure the dog gets from it. What I’m saying is the whip isn’t only used to stimulate prey. Moving his feet doesn’t help the dog avoid the hit.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> The fading color happens in all lines. There’s a German show line in my club that has it.


 thank you



Bearshandler said:


> I’ve never seen a real dog with a command to hold that wouldn’t bite if the guy was running like that.


 granted it's only a snapshot, not a complete story, but I've always assumed the handler didn't want the dog to hold, and ordered the bad guy/s to run? either to to lockup, or just out of shanty town?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> thank you
> 
> 
> 
> granted it's only a snapshot, not a complete story, but I've always assumed the handler didn't want the dog to hold, and ordered the bad guy/s to run? either to to lockup, or just out of shanty town?


Why would be order the bad guys to run? That's not a thing you do.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> thank you
> 
> 
> 
> granted it's only a snapshot, not a complete story, but I've always assumed the handler didn't want the dog to hold, and ordered the bad guy/s to run? either to to lockup, or just out of shanty town?


Where is that picture from? You sure do have a fascination with it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> Where is that picture from? You sure do have a fascination with it.


LMAO!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

he's got 3 guys lined up, single file, running them somewhere?

sure looks like a proverbial "run out of town" to me?










I don't remember where it's from, but if anyone has a better foto, I'd love to steal it


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> ... I’ve never seen a real dog with a command to hold that wouldn’t bite if the guy was running like that.


What about the call off exercise? You don't have it in IGP because the sport is so watered down. You see it in ring sports, KNPV and PSA and there are real dogs involved. It is called controlled aggression. Same goes for a dog pulling the handler to bite someone. It is not about the dog being "real." It is about failure to teach control.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

• Stopped Attack: This is done exactly like the face attack, with the decoy acting menacing and the dog being told to attack. When the dog is 1 to 4m away, the handler calls the dog who returns to the handler without biting the decoy. Points are based on the distance from the decoy when the dog is recalled, with 0 points if the dog bites. the handler must behave in every way exactly the same up until the recall command for the call off and face attack (EX sneeze during one, you better for the other)


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What about the call off exercise? You don't have it in IGP because the sport is so watered down. You see it in ring sports, KNPV and PSA and there are real dogs involved. It is called controlled aggression. Same goes for a dog pulling the handler to bite someone. It is not about the dog being "real." It is about failure to teach control.


You are pretty good at misinformation. The call off from long attack and a dog being in a hold or guard command are very different. A dog under a hold command is taught to bite if the decoy makes an aggressive move. Slowly backing away might not get you but. Running away definitely will. In the call off, the dog is sent on a long bite and recalled before he gets to the man. It’s not an apples to apples comparison. I didn’t say anything about the dog being real. I referred to his intent to bite, equipment or not. As for dogs dragging for a bite, again you offer more misinformation. If I give my dog a command to bite, he is absolutely going to pull to get to the bite. That has nothing to do with control. You are saying here you could tell your dog to bite stand upright and hold him back with one hand. Show me that video. It’s hard to have legit conversations with you when you try to twist scenarios.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> That is a good sign. Generally animal aggression and aggression toward children reflects a temperament fault. There are always exceptions like chasing a squirrel, chipmunk or rabbit and killing it. Discernment is a valuable trait.


Never trust a dog that doesn't chase squirrels, chipmunks or rabbits .... bonus for deer .... winner for coyotes. -1 for skunks. 

My dogs will worry snakes (harmless ones up here) for hours if I let them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Every IPO thread is high jacked for one person's platform.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> You are pretty good at misinformation. The call off from long attack and a dog being in a hold or guard command are very different. A dog under a hold command is taught to bite if the decoy makes an aggressive move. Slowly backing away might not get you but. Running away definitely will. In the call off, the dog is sent on a long bite and recalled before he gets to the man. It’s not an apples to apples comparison. I didn’t say anything about the dog being real. I referred to his intent to bite, equipment or not. As for dogs dragging for a bite, again you offer more misinformation. If I give my dog a command to bite, he is absolutely going to pull to get to the bite. That has nothing to do with control. You are saying here you could tell your dog to bite stand upright and hold him back with one hand. Show me that video. It’s hard to have legit conversations with you when you try to twist scenarios.


Running away is not an aggressive move. It is flight. You said you have never seen a real dog with a command hold that would not bite if the guy is running like that. I don't use the term real dog or real dog sport. I simply think IGP is mainly an obedience, play aggression sport. I don't hold my dog back in most exercises at this point in his training. I mostly do obedience and protection off leash and the dog is at heel in a sit or down and then I give the command to bite.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Running away is not an aggressive move. It is flight. You said you have never seen a real dog with a command hold that would not bite if the guy is running like that. I don't use the term real dog or real dog sport. I simply think IGP is mainly an obedience, play aggression sport. I don't hold my dog back in most exercises at this point in his training. I mostly do obedience and protection off leash and the dog is at heel in a sit or down and then I give the command to bite.


I never said anything about the dog being real. I said the dog was not trying to bite. Running away isn’t aggressive, but it would still trigger a bite. All dog sports are play chip. Neither the dogs or the handlers are in any real danger. PSA is also about obedience and control. Every sport can be trained to where the dog sees the sleeve or suit as a toy. It is common in every sport. The difference you imply about feeling the man under the suit can also be done with a sleeve. It doesn’t matter that at this point you don’t hold your dog back. I said if I tried to hold my dog back from a bite like that he would drag me, and you said it had to do with control and obedience. I disagree. If you can hold your dog back from a bite the way that dog is being held in the picture, prove it.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A genetically correct dog with proper training in PSA sees the suit as an extension of the decoy not a prey object such as a sleeve. IGP sleeves do not allow a dog to feel a helper's muscles and ligaments moving in the sleeve. The frequent slipping of the sleeve reinforces to the dog it is an object to win. All sport are not real life, but IGP is largely play. It is the dressage of dog sports. Why has it been made easier and easier and less challenging to the dogs over the years? Some countries have banned stick hits altogether, which is not much pressure to begin with. The dog in the picture is operational and not engaged in a sport with rules so it has nothing to do with holding that dog back. Suit sports do put decoys in more danger than IGP because the dogs are taught to target multiple areas and some of those areas are near vulnerable places. A poorly targeted tricep bite can end up on a decoy's neck. I have seen video of a KNPV dog that almost knocked out a decoy. In IGP on the long bite, the helper turns either sleeve side or stick side to absorb the dog and then drive him. You don't see much of that in suit sports. Ring sport uses a barrage of hits with a clatter stick.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

"Although my history has been in Schutzhund for more than thirty years, and I still believe in the old style program, it must be reported that it has become incessantly less rigorous and demanding. The rules have been continually relaxed in a number of ways: the substitution of the A frame for the scaling wall, the introduction of the padded stick, the elimination of the attack on the handler and the severe shortening of the long pursuit, formerly the test of courage. Over these years, no feature to prove the mettle of better dogs and training, such as a call off in the long pursuit or variations in the order and details of the obedience routines on a trial by trial basis, have been introduced or seriously considered. Popularity and accommodations for increasingly marginal dogs always win out over innovations for more stringent breeding and service selection. Most importantly the incessantly weakening rules and especially the lenient trials for show line German Shepherds have greatly reduced the credibility of the Schutzhund title, which after all can be no greater than the weakest performance by the most docile IPO titled show dog, a very low standard indeed. The Schutzhund program, and the vitality of many police breeds, has been in serious decline over the past twenty years, as evidenced by European and American yearly puppy registrations, which have declined by half or more. The essence of the problem is that most of these dogs are destined for civilian homes, and most of the money has come from these sales and services rather than police or military applications. The Belgian Malinois is the noteworthy exception " Jim Engel


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> A genetically correct dog with proper training in PSA sees the suit as an extension of the decoy not a prey object such as a sleeve. IGP sleeves do not allow a dog to feel a helper's muscles and ligaments moving in the sleeve. The frequent slipping of the sleeve reinforces to the dog it is an object to win. All sport are not real life, but IGP is largely play. It is the dressage of dog sports. Why has it been made easier and easier and less challenging to the dogs over the years? Some countries have banned stick hits altogether, which is not much pressure to begin with. The dog in the picture is operational and not engaged in a sport with rules so it has nothing to do with holding that dog back. Suit sports do put decoys in more danger than IGP because the dogs are taught to target multiple areas and some of those areas are near vulnerable places. A poorly targeted tricep bite can end up on a decoy's neck. I have seen video of a KNPV dog that almost knocked out a decoy. In IGP on the long bite, the helper turns either sleeve side or stick side to absorb the dog and then drive him. You don't see much of that in suit sports. Ring sport uses a barrage of hits with a clatter stick.


I don’t know that decoys in suits are in more danger. Their whole body is protected, not just an arm. The same way an errant bite can injure a decoy in suit sports, it can injure a decoy in sleeve sports. It’s not like suits leave you with more vulnerable spots. I have seen decoys get hurt in IGP. All igp training isn’t done on the full sleeve. If you have a strong dog, it isn’t going to matter how many stick hits you give the dog. You yourself have talked about psa being made easier too. The issues you see come from foundation training and genetics. If a dog has, they have it. You said it yourself, the best fog you’ve seen come to your club was a schutzhund dog. You said it took a day to transition from the sleeve to the suit. If it took a day, that tells me the difference isn’t that much.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> The fading color happens in all lines. There’s a German show line in my club that has it.


so how about that german showline on the field? does it perform? any good?

I'm not looking to disparage any dog or type, just curious...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Nowhere in IGP does a dog come remotely close to biting the neck area. The vast majority and for some IGP dogs, all targeting is to the center of the bite bar. Why do IGP helpers only wear scratch pants and some even wear only aprons.I think Engel's writings sums it up. PSA has been made easier in much more subtle ways. Padded stick hits are the only physical attack on the dog in IGP. The show dogs aren't even hit with the stick. The dog I mentioned went from being weird with biting the suit to biting it on the forearm. The bite mechanics were absent for suit work after only one day. And the dog was a Malinois.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> so how about that german showline on the field? does it perform? any good?
> 
> I'm not looking to disparage any dog or type, just curious...


He’s working his way back from an injury. When he’s healthy, he can go.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Nowhere in IGP does a dog come remotely close to biting the neck area. The vast majority and for some IGP dogs, all targeting is to the center of the bite bar. Why do IGP helpers only wear scratch pants and some even wear only aprons.I think Engel's writings sums it up. PSA has been made easier in much more subtle ways. Padded stick hits are the only physical attack on the dog in IGP. The show dogs aren't even hit with the stick. The dog I mentioned went from being weird with biting the suit to biting it on the forearm. The bite mechanics were absent for suit work after only one day. And the dog was a Malinois.


What trial have you been to where the dogs weren’t hit?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Video of the BSZS.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

These are the best of the German show lines. Do you see any stick hits? The helper hops
back in prey before every dog bites and avoids eye contact. Look at the heeling.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I realize the big money isn't committed to "preserving" any working heritage, but I wonder, down in the trenches, is a typical investor able to train a typical highline import to "protect" a typical home/family? I would bet yes, but I wouldn't bet the farm


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> These are the best of the German show lines. Do you see any stick hits? The helper hops
> back in prey before every dog bites and avoids eye contact. Look at the heeling.


That is not a schutzhund trial. Those are also the best show dogs, not the the best workers of the high lines.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'll try it like this, occasionally we see other breeds ipo, schnauzer, dobe, et al. How does the typical/avg highline temperament compare to those individuals?





submitted for your for entertainment only


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'll try it like this, occasionally we see other breeds ipo, schnauzer, dobe, et al. How does the typical/avg highline temperament compare to those individuals?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can’t tell you what the typical high line is like. I encounter 4 adult high lines in total on a regular basis. They have vastly different temperaments between them. They have less drive than the working lines. None of them have any flawed temperament issues that come up. They aren’t as intense in work as the working lines.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

do those look like reasonable stick hits? to me they do? at least a couple? eh, maybe not...

not naming any names, but I've seen worse ipg3's...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You can not compare a GSD to a Schnauzer to a Dobe. They have different genetic drives and temperaments per breed.









Kazmir Alta-Tollhaus | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog


You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Kazmir Alta-Tollhaus at working-dog.



us.working-dog.com





This dog was the only high line at the 2019 USCA Nationals under a judge that was not giving any points away.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I've seen worse ipg3's...


 I shouldn't have said that. For the record here, IMHO, any training is better than no training, and any title is better than no title. Far be it from me to ever criticize anyone or any dog for participating.

As for breed vs breed comparison, trust me, gsd can handle the competition. Bsd not withstanding


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I clearly said the show lines don’t get stick hits and this is breed’s homeland national show line show.
Berno, It is the very rare show line GSD that will fight. All the working breeds have declined due to lowered standards and an unwillingness to make changes in protection sports. IGP has become a soccer mom sport. KNPV is the best sport for creating a viable gene pool for police dogs, but they still need to pass extensive training after obtaining the minimum title of PH1 which is the norm. Other breeds that used to excel in KNPV have fallen by the wayside due to breed organizations. The GSDCA is a joke. USCA is somewhat better. I don’t have much faith in American schH but they are trying. What is still viable are ring sports, KNPV, possibly the American version of KNPV-APA, and PSA . As I said, no sports are real life but some promote dogs that are stronger than others. If people want to compete in IGP I think that is fine and people should enjoy themselves and their dogs. My point is that they should be more realistic about how the decline of the sport has contributed to the decline of the GSD.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Protection Sports Association Home - PSAK9-AS


WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? Join or Renew PSA Today Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA) The Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA)



psak9-as.org





I found it heartening to see psak9-org became the parent organization for american schutzhund. 

strength in numbers


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

PSA is not without its flaws. As I have said, a super confidence, I own this space type of dog will have a hard time and they are the best dogs. That is why access to really good training makes such a difference in the sport. There are a lot of hacks out there.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

I don't know how to answer that but if you start that type of training there is a chance that a youngster is thinking "hmmmmm - some of these people are not as nice as they seem and I am going to keep an eye on them". I don't think we will ever know how they put the pieces of the puzzle together. Some get it perfect and some still have some trouble getting the right fit. I was always impressed with the discretion our SchH III had. Loved babies, todlers, kittens, puppies but was tough as nails if need be. He just seemed to know how to easily turn it off when it was time. We did a last blind search one day and started walking back with the helper. I had my mind on the long drive home but Pascha was still calmly working. The helper decided to get a little smart and turned toward me aggressively. Pascha nailed him before I realized what was happening. I think the longer they work with the right training and circumstances the more confident they become and feel at ease in nearly any situation. And, it always has to be "fun" for them.. Don't know if that makes sense or not but you almost have to read their minds and know what they are thinking and a feel for how they will react. I realized nothing I have said is a revelation but just thinking out loud. Best of luck


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## BoostedEK (Apr 3, 2020)

I see this topic got bit out of hand  
Thank you everyone for your answers.

Coolgsd, I hope mine becomes like this eventually and he'll be more at ease in normal life soon. I'm training him for Schutzhund only for half a year. The training is definetly the most exiting thing for him, he's super eager to get into the fight, but on another side, I perfectly see and sense, that for him schutzhund is a game which he wants to play very much.


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