# So you want to be a breeder???



## selzer

Some of you may have read that I imported a bitch who has been bred. She is top German Showlines, and I bought her on pedigree and feeling very confident in the breeder through an acquaintence who had imported from him through the years. I expect her to improve my lines, and want to make her my foundation bitch.

She came in on the 28th of December, and she is everything I hoped for and more. If you can believe it, it has been love at first site. Her temperament and gentle nature has me wrapped around her little front dew claw. 

We have had no way to know for sure when she was bred, our best guestimates would have been January 12 to January 19, but immediately, I thought sooner.

Late New Years Day, we had an emergency. A $600 dollar bout of gas that made me seriously fearful for her life. A 2.5 hour trip each way to the ER, who charged 120$ for an emergency fee, and then 25% more on everything because it was an emergency.

On Thursday, January sixth, while taking out my other dogs, I saw her out in the puppy pen, sitting like a locust laying an egg. I thought, she is in labor. I figured I had some time, so I took care of my dogs, and then called her in. Around eleven I called my vet as I started seeing major contractions. I sat on the sidelines encouraging her to puuuush. And she was trying. 

My vet tech did not seem too concerned, she told me that after hours I could call this place or that place. I told her I wanted a VET to talk to, not an ER. I explained my ER experience of the week and felt I had done my ER duty, and could just get a VET to call. Nothing. 

Odessa was doing the puppy sit, grasshopper thing, with occasional contractions, but inbetween times she was acting like she was happy and healthy and not in any distress. I took her outside for a walk, with a towel in case we got a puppy down. No. 

I waited, at one point, contractions were every three minutes. I called the vet again. It was four oclock. The lady was as unhelpful as before, but another tech got on that knew me. She told me that I should call a vet in the next town, gave me the name and number and told me that my vet (the one that can do surgeries) was out of town! I wish they would have told me THAT at 11AM. 

But anyways, I called the vet in the next town, and her surgeon was gone for the day. Nice. And she would only call them in for her own customers. Double nice. And she said she would NOT cut without a progesterone test done, and the only place in the vacinity who could do it was the place I was on New Year's Day -- the 600 dollar bill that I got that day and called up Screaming about being double charged for the emergency. 

Odd really, you just leave your Discover card numbers and it is like writing a blank check. You do not know what the bill will be unless you call or get it in the mail. 

Anyhow, that is THE ONLY place in the area that does progesterone test. The vet told me to get moving! And I did. I picked up my friend en route. 

Did I mention 2.5 hours. Well, 2.5 hours in good weather, considerably longer in a blizzard with white out conditions. All the way. Ice, snow, white out. Bitch in the back being quiet as a church mouse. Passenger spewing comments the entire way. It's your dog food. Why are you slowing down and speeding up! 

It was great to have her there though. 

We get in the waiting room, and Odessa looks ready to run a marathon. She is bright eyed and bushy tailed, and prancing like she is a picture of health and well-being.

My friend tells me next time, I go alone.

They hand me an estimate $988 - $1088. I sign over my first born. 

We get in the room, and they do a vaginal exam. She is fully open. What does that mean? Well, if a puppy would present itself, she would have it. Ok.

They took her temp. 

She said she would cut without a progesterone because she is confident that she is in labor. She suggests an ultrasound. I ask her if that is included in the estimate, and she says no. Sigh. 

We do the ultrasound. Heartbeats are there. It looks good. 

It is up to me. I can cut her or take her home and wait. My friend thinks she is not ready yet to deliver. The vet says she is confident that she is in labor. I am thinking three hours home in a snow storm and then more straining, and no puppy. 

They say they will get her on the table and ready and then bring us back. It seemed to take forever. But finally we are staring at her through the operating room window. We watch them cut the abdomen open. My friend is saying they will be born without hair or nails. They dig for the womb and make a bigger slit. They dig for the womb and make a BIGGER slit. Finally they get the womb out. 

They pull the puppies out of their sacks and hand them off. My attention is between the girl on the table, and the four puppies being revived behind me now. The surgeon is sewing her up. It takes a long time. 

It takes a long time to get the puppies going. They put them in the incubator. Yes they do have hair and nails -- all pups are over a pound.
They said that the placentas were already starting to separate. We got them just in time. They would have been dead by morning. 

The put a blanket down and put Odessa down on the floor. She starts to come to. They come and get me for my cc. 

I have to have them cut the bill in half and run the card twice. 

I get back, and she is awake, but we cannot let her near the puppies yet. There is blood EVERYWHERE. She is weak. 

They are holding down her neck, and putting the pups on teets. Puppies will not suck. 

We stay there. With a three hour or more treck home, the puppies have to be full of milky cholosterum before we try to go home. Also we have to get the bitch to figure out they are hers. She is so wacky. 

At this point they tell me that she cannot be alone for 24 to 48 hours. I kind of knew this but I was wondering how I would sleep at all. 

We were there a LOOONG time. Odessa finally started to lick her puppies, and we pulled them away, put them in a box with hot water bottles and some towels they supplied, and rushed her out to the car.

It got it going and put the heater on full blast. My friend held the box of puppies, until we reached her house. The last hour was just me. 

Did I mention snow. Yes, we have snow, tons of it. The roads were awful, icy nasty yuck ALL THE WAY HOME. 

I got in at about 3AM, and got them in the house and turned on the heat lamp and laid the girl down and tried to connect the puppies. Thankfully, they were still warm. 

They were a slow bunch to learn to suck. Connecting them, and then Odessa was not too enamored with the arrangement either. Finally at about 5AM, I settled on the couch near the whelping box, and slept for two hours. Everyone was doing well, so I went and slept for another hour. Then I was awake. 

I got everyone connected to a nozzle, and fed Odessa again. Then I went out and took care of the others. I spent the rest of the day with Odessa and crew. Babies lost weight. I kind of expected that. Today they lost more. I am not too sure they are going to make it. 

Odessa has been good though throughout. She is keeping them clean, mostly on the first day I had to keep her out off the umbilical cords. She could easily cause a hernea, or worse if she starts pulling them. 

Anyhow, she has been a great momma. 

I just drove through feet of snow to get hamburger, cottage cheese, yogurt and rice. 

My diet of white rice, chocolate covered raisens and dr. pepper has been telling on me. 

Anyway, if you think it would be fun to have a litter of puppies, be aware that it may be a whole lot more fun than you expected.


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## Emoore

Oh come on. You know you breeders are just in it for the money!


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## Zoeys mom

Oh my what a ride you've been on with this girl. Do you have puppy formula and some helping hands by any chance. I'm sure you know you can also milk mamma with a similar device us breastfeeding moms use to ensure her milk doesn't dry up and you can add some to the puppy formula- she's probably not feeling so good after a c-section and needs a few days to recoup I'm sorry this has all happened I can't imagine puppies on their own are enough work.


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## RazinKain

> *So you want to be a breeder???*


*NOPE! Not me, absolutely not! Just one 8 week old land shark pushed me to the limit at times. Good luck with that bunch.*


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## onyx'girl

Wow~ you have four pups and vet bills that are going to be over the moon, including the one from before. 
Thankfully you were experienced enough to see the signs and not let her die during whelp. I'm sorry things didn't go more smoothly for you and Odessa.
I pray all pups pull thru. Were they full term? And was this her first litter?
I hope you can all get some rest!
If they were so close to whelp, why did the seller wait so long to ship her to you? I think the stress of flying played a huge role in the difficulties she had.


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## selzer

They were full term. She had one litter a year ago. They waited to do an ultrasound to ensure pregnancy. That was December 10. They had to arrange shipment. Europe had some major bad weather, blizzards, planes grounded and such. Not sure how bad it was, but it had to be good enough on both ends to ship her.


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## onyx'girl

Glad the pups are out, hoping for the best. Were there more than 4?


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## elisabeth_00117

Wow... and to answer your question - NO, I do not want to be a breeder. 

I give you and those who do this credit because wow.. I could not deal with that. 

I am glad to hear your girl is doing well and I will send positive thoughts to her babies.


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## Dejavu

Oh my God! I feel exhausted just reading all that you and your girl went through! Hugs for you, you did a great job taking her there before it was too late.
Not that they made it easier for you... 

I hope she gets better and the puppies make it. Sending prayers your way!

Please take care of yourself, we definitely not want you to get sick 

And NOOOO!! I do *NOT* want to be a breeder!!


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## spiritsmom

Oh my, poor you and poor Odessa. That was some experience for sure. Glad you decided to have them open her up. Here's to hoping all 4 puppies make it and quit losing weight.


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## KZoppa

NOPE! i dont want to be a breeder. hope everything continues to go better! thats rough and i was tired before but reading that.... oh boy talk about exhaustion!!!


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## trudy

may everything go well from here on, may I ask a few questions, because i don't know, can she have pups again or not because of the c-section? How old is she? Did she arrive looking in good physical condition?? Do you think it was because of shipping so close to the due date and not knowing anyone and being in a new place??

How many boys?girls? Are you keeping any? WE will wait patiently for pics and I hope we see 4 healthy big growing pups that are everything you could wish for, and that mom heals well and you get great pics of her too. And then take care of yourself, call your friend and see if she can puppy sit so you can get some uninterrupted sleep, and thank goodness for good friends


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## BowWowMeow

What about putting up a post in the Breeders section for help in getting the pups to thrive? 

I hope they pull through...


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## ChristenHolden

OHHH Sue I'm sorry I hope everything turns out fine. That's jus horrible for a dog to go thru in such a short time. Wishing her and pups well wishes :hugs
:


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## paulag1955

Keeping my fingers crossed for the babies. 

And I'd rather stick a needle in my eye than be a breeder.


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## robinhuerta

Selzer....I wish we lived within a 3 hour drive from you....I'd come and help you out.
been there....done that....horrible!


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## codmaster

Wow! What a story! Good luck to all - You, mother and pups!


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## CaliBoy

Sue, what an incredible ordeal. You are one tough and brave soul to endure all that for the babies. I moaned and complained today about my problems, and then when I read your post my problems appeared so petty and miniscule. Sending prayers your way and especially for Odessa and the babies to pull through this.


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## bianca

Sending thoughts and prayers that these little ones start to thrive, that Odessa heals quickly, and that you have no more dramas and can rest :hugs:

P.S This should be a sticky thread so potential wanna-be's can read it.


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## stacey_eight

Holy moly! That is an insane story. I'll be hoping for the best for Odessa, the pups and you! Please keep us posted when you can.

And no, while I find dog breeding fascinating, I am definitey _*not*_ capable of doing it myself.


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## Good_Karma

Thank God you followed your instincts and went for the C-section! What a complete nightmare, honestly, why can't anything ever be easy?? 

Hoping and praying that the babies begin to thrive. And hugs to you and Odessa for trying so very hard to bring those babies into this world.


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## JakodaCD OA

WOW, glad everyone is safe, I think this should be one of those "sticky's"..


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## vomlittlehaus

How are the puppies today?? Hope they are still thriving. I give my bitch a supplement called Puppy Gold, from K9 Power Products. It works like a prenatal vitamin before, during, and after whelping. It can also be used to bottle feed puppies. So I already have it, if needed, for puppies. I have a regular baby bottle too, and you can get different nipples (different flow rates) to put on it.

I cant imagine not being able to go to my vet for an emergency. She will come in for me if she is not the vet on call. No questions asked. I have actually assisted in c-sections before when working at vets. Things need to move very fast once mom is under anesthesia. 
I certainly think the stress of being moved could have played a role in her not being able to get the puppies out on her own. Look into raspberry leaves extract as a supplement to give for her next litter. I also keep vanilla ice cream on hand when close to whelping. The calcium in the ice cream is quickly absorbed and helps get stronger contractions going.


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## lizzyjo

What an awesome person you are to your dogs. It takes heart to go through all you did. I know its isnt money that would drive you to save her and her pups. My breeder had frozen sperm from her original stud. Her last sperm she implanted in an awesome female. Short story, the bitches uterus ruptured during labor..lost her and all but one puppy. Sad outcome. So glad your pups are surviving. Good luck


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## Pattycakes

Wow....thank goodness you were able to get your dog to the vet as soon as you did. I hope mom and pups continue to thrive. Keep us posted when you can.

And to answer that question...no, I would not want to be a breeder.


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## DharmasMom

Wow. I really hope Odessa and all the pups do okay. What a nightmare to go through. Sending lots of healing thoughts for your girls and her new babies!


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## Castlemaid

I hope mom and puppies are all doing well! Good call on getting the C section done Selzer, sounds like it saved Odessa and her brood. 

You have all of my respect for driving out and back in those road conditions - get some rest!


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## GSD Fan

Wow. It could have been worse, you could've lost the mother dog or she eat the puppies.

That and more are risks breeders take. That and more may be the money paid. 

I still want to be a breeder someday, knowing my female's life is at risk, the money, the time, the preparation, etc. 

Excellent thread.


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## irongrl

I sure hope that Odessa and the puppies are ok, and that you can get some good rest. You deserve it! I think your post should be a sticky.

To answer the question, I would not want to be a breeder.


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## stacey_eight

Has there been any updates? Hoping all is well...


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## Good_Karma

Yes, please let us know how it's going! We are all wishing and hoping for the very best.


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## ChristenHolden

:bump:


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## selzer

Update: not good. 

Yesterday was the worse day of my life to date.

The good news is that Odessa is doing good. She is still tearing up papers and is a little frantic, poor thing. No mastitis, no infection, plenty of milk. She is healthy and yes, she can be bred again even with a c-section, this does not mean she cannot have a natural birth the next time around. I think the last ten days have just been so much stress on her, and I suppose it is possible she picked up canine herpes somewhere, but I cannot be sure of that. It is just a possibility.

Anyhow, I woke at six am yesterday after little sleep, and the Green boy was off by himself. I warmed him slowly up. I tried to supplement him with some milk replacer for puppies. I tried to put him back on the mother. At 9AM, he was dead. 

I figured he was not meant to be. Maybe too long in utero, and it took him a long to to get going. I focussed on the ones I had left. I weighed them, they lost more weight, I tried to give them some warm formula and put them back on the momma. 

I went out and took care of my other dogs. 

I came back in an hour later, and Brown Boy was stiffening. I lost him. An hour later I lost the blue girl. 

The pink girl was still trying to suckle though. 

Every 45 minutes I came back in and made sure she was warm and put her up close to the mom, and made sure she was not cleaning her too much. 

At about 9PM she stopped trying to eat. I kept putting her close to her mom. I was losing ground with her. Tube feeding might help, but I did not have tube feeding stuff, and I really had no place to know where to get it. Further, I have never done it, so I am fearful of causing more problems. 

But the girl will die! I should have had it in house. 

At midnight I went out to bring in and feed the mangies. I found Whitney dead. 
It appeared to be a massive colitis attack. Blood everythere in pools in the snow.

I left her there and brought in my others and took care of them. I have to keep going. I was up until 3:30 going back and forth with Pink Girl, ie. Little Pup. 

This morning Little Pup was still alive. I wrapped her in a towel and took her and Odessa to the vet. They will put her in an incubator and tube feed her. With luck, I will learn a new skill this evening.

I took Odessa home and carried Whitney in a tarp to my car and loaded her in. I took her to the vet -- they will arrange for cremation. 

I went back home to clean her kennel out and feed my dogs. It does not look like colitis. It looks like an aneurism maybe. She had solid poo yesterday, and ate her food yesterday morning, even leaping up onto the shelter to talk to me. Today, there was solid poop with no blood in it. And there was pools of blood without any sign of fecal matter or vomit. It appears she bled to death. 

By the signs, it does not appear that if I would have known immediately, I would have been able to do anything. 

It was her time to go. There was no warning. Yesterday when I fed them she was the picture of health. When I went to bring them in, she was dead.

Hug your dogs. We really do not know for how long they will be with us. 

I died a little bit yesterday/today. 

I hope Little Pup makes it. 

Thanks everyone for the kind words, prayers, and thoughts.


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## Betty

God Sue, I wish I had words that would help you through this. I am so very very sorry.


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## ChristenHolden

Ohhh God that's horrible. Words can not say how sorry I am about this. :hug:


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## codmaster

That was a terrible day! My deepest sympathy!!!! - it must absolutely tear you up to see the pups so helpless!


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## stacey_eight

Oh my dear god, I am so very very sorry for your losses. I have no words... My heart and thoughts are with you.


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## irongrl

I am so sorry. 

:hugs:


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## gsdraven

:hugs: So, so sorry Selzer.


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## WarrantsWifey

Oh my gosh, I am so sorry. I was hoping for the best. I will put you into my prayers tonight. Hopefully prayers will help you get through this, and help your pink baby make it. <3


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## bianca

I am so very very sorry Sue :hugs: My thoughts and prayers are with you and your pack.


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## GSD_Xander

OMG I am so sorry Selzer  

Keeping my fingers crossed for little pup 

(((HUGS))) :hugs:


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## PupperLove

I cannot even believe I am reading this...I can't imagine the stress and heartbreak you must be going through...I am so so so sorry everything turned out this way for you, Whitney, Odessa, and her litter....my heart goes out to you.  I hope nothing like this ever has to happen for you ever, ever again...

When Jackson was born, his mother had to go through a C-section, and the breeder ended up losing 4 puppies, and a 5th continued to struggle to keep on weight. Jackson was a survivor, of course. Thank you for sharing your story, being a breeder doesn't sound easy.


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## JakodaCD OA

my gosh, I am so very very sorry, what a horrible horrible few days you've had

Please keep us updated on puppy I hope she is a fighter and hugs to you


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## robinhuerta

Sue,
I am so very sorry for all that _has_ and _is_ still happening.
Losing puppies is always hard....but losing "friends" that have been with us for some time ..is worse.
I wish that we were "closer" neighbors...I would trully offer some help....we can ALL use help from time to time.
Please feel free to let me know if there is anything that I can be of assistance with by phone or PM.
*Positive thoughts being sent your way*
Robin


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## elisabeth_00117

Oh Sue... I am so very sorry.... What a horrendous thing you are going through... Your poor Whitney... Rest in peace beautiful girl.. My heart aches for you Sue, I am so so sorry.


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## Good_Karma

My heart is breaking for you...
:hugs:


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## Pattycakes

Selzer - My heart is so saddened by what you have gone through with your dogs and puppies.    Thoughts, prayers, and hugs sent to you.


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## AgileGSD

What a horrible day. So very sorry to hear about all of your losses 

Did Odessa have a normal pregnancy/whelping with her first litter? Do you have fluids for the pup? Will send good thoughts her way!


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## beaderdog

What a terrible time you've had. I'm so sorry.


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## Emoore

Oh Seltzer. I'm so very sorry. :hugs: I will keep you and the rest of your pack in my prayers. I know how it feels to lose your dog suddenly and unexpectedly, but to lose one in the middle of all the problems with Odessa and the puppies. . . how heartbreaking. I know I'm far away but _please_ let me know if I can do anything.


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## pyratemom

After reading your about your traumatic time, no I never want to breed! I'm so sorry for the loss of your loved dog and puppies too. I hope the little one makes it for you. You are a champ to have gone through so much to help the momma dog. Sometimes it's out of our hands but I never want to admit that to my dogs.  You and your dogs will be in my conversations with the Great Spirits.


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## liv

Oh Sue...there are no words :hugs: What an incredibly devastating day for you  I am so sorry that you lost your Whitney girl - what a tragic and unexpected loss of a dog that you have loved and bonded with. I'm sorry about the puppies too, it is so hard to be helpless. Sending ALL of my thoughts and prayers to you, Odessa and baby girl!! I know you won't likely be sleeping any time soon, but take care of yourself, Sue. :hugs: Off to snuggle with my pups. :hugs:


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## selzer

AgileGSD said:


> What a horrible day. So very sorry to hear about all of your losses
> 
> Did Odessa have a normal pregnancy/whelping with her first litter? Do you have fluids for the pup? Will send good thoughts her way!


Thanks again all for the kind thoughts and prayers. She is currently holding her own. She has gone from 2ccs to 5ccs. I will get her back within the hour. 

Anyhow, to answer the questions, what I know about her first litter was that she was a good mother and took care of the puppies. And I have to agree that she IS a good mother and very concerned about the puppies. In fact she is a little frantic right now looking for her.

I had some milk replacer. I bought years ago. But it was in a can so I did not think anything of it, hoped I would never need it. Anyhow, not sure it was the best stuff to use. I will get some good stuff at the vet tonight.


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## Dainerra

OMG I was worried about the little pups, but to hear about Whitney on top of everything else. I am so sorry!


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## onyx'girl

Sue, I am so very sorry about Whitney. My condolences to you. The pups too...I'm glad Odessa is doing well, I hope the baby girl will gain strength and be able to help her mom get that milk out. 
Prayers of strength & healing for you and your pack. :hugs:


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## spiritsmom

So sorry to hear about Whitney. I hope this little pup makes it. What a rough couple of days you've had.


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## Rerun

Selzer, Leerburgs puppy formula is MUCH MUCH better than the milk replacers sold in stores! In the future perhaps have the ingredients on hand to use when one is due to whelp in case you need them...

Leerburg | Bottle Feeding Puppies

Tons of info on there including how much the pup should take in per day at what size, etc.

We used whole goats milk, karo syrup, whole plain yogurt, and one egg yolk for our orphaned foster pups.


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## CaliBoy

Sue: Terrible news. I'm so sorry for Whitney and the babies. It sounds like a day that will live in infamy. Prayers for you all.


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## Dejavu

I'm so very sorry to hear this, I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry for your losses. 
I'm glad Odessa is doing ok. She's a strong little one.

My heart goes out to you, sending hugs, prayers and good thoughts.:hugs:


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## PupperLove

Well I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Little Pup. Keep us updated, I can't stop thinking about her and Odessa now. Again, Im so sorry this had to happen, especially all at once. Not AT ALL what I was, or any of us, were expecting to hear.  ...some things just make you ask, ....WHY....?


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## DharmasMom

Oh selzer. I am so very sorry to hear about the pups and esp about your poor Whitney. Little pink pup is in my thought and fingers and paws are crossed here that she stays strong and makes it through.


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## wolfstraum

I am sorry for your loss - especially losing your Whitney on top of all the problems with the babies....

You did not have the litter outside did you???? There was one comment you made that made me wonder - I always have pups inside, with lots of insulation in the box, and heat lamps for the first 10 days at least....Hope your last little girl makes it...

Lee


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## sitstay

Wow. What a sad turn of events. I was so intrigued by the changes in your breeding program, and was looking forward to hearing how this litter matured. I was sorry to read your update.

Is there any way Whitney's death could be connected to the puppies? Maybe an illness? Will the vet do a necropsy before they cremate her?

I hope your little girl makes it.
Sheilah


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## bocron

wolfstraum said:


> I am sorry for your loss - especially losing your Whitney on top of all the problems with the babies....
> 
> You did not have the litter outside did you???? There was one comment you made that made me wonder - I always have pups inside, with lots of insulation in the box, and heat lamps for the first 10 days at least....Hope your last little girl makes it...
> 
> Lee


I thought the same thing, but no, it was just the way she wrote something. She was referring to having the tube feeding supplies and supplement in the house, not the puppies. 

Selzer, so sorry to hear about this difficult time for you. Sending good thoughts your way.
The litter that I'm getting my pup from was a similar situation in that there were 4 pups but after an emergency c-section, all that survived were mom and one girl pup. The breeder called me just heartbroken, mostly for the dam as she is a good mom and was very upset at the loss of her pups. The breeder kept apologizing to me that there was only one pup and was so sorry that there weren't more to choose from. I felt so bad for her and for the momma dog, but now after much worry, mom and pup are doing wonderfully. I still don't know if I'll get that pup, but I'm glad the 2 of them are healthy now. 
Hoping for the same for you.


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## paulag1955

I am so, so sorry for what you're going through. I'll be keeping you and Little Pup in my prayers.


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## Andaka

I am so sorry to hear about ... everything! I am sending prayers your way.


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## Zoeys mom

Wow what a terrible day Sue I am so sorry. Losing 3 puppies and another beloved dog in the same day is just too much to load on one person- things must feel so heavy now I hope the little girl makes it after all you have gone through this week and things start to turn around. Whitney's death being unexpected is hard, but hopefully Murphy has paid his last visit to you this year and something wonderfully unexpected will happen


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## sagelfn

:hugs: Sue I am so sorry. Keeping you and the little one in my thoughts


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## AvaLaRue

Sue, I'm so sorry about the puppies and then to suddenly lose Whitney on top of it. My heart goes out to you. You are in my thoughts and prayers. I hope the little pup makes it.:hugs:


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## Good_Karma

Sue just checking in and wanting to say that I hope you are doing okay and that you found a bit of time to rest.:hugs:


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## wolfstraum

this is really tough....I am so sorry and did not mean if I came off earlier in any way negative.....I cannot imagine how horrible it would be to lose one of mine in such a shocking way.....I am sorry ....

I hope your last pup makes it and is a normal pup....also, I think I would get the female to someone like Hutch to get her checked out for any STD that could have caused the problems and to confirm that it was just plain nasty bad luck...

Hugs!

Lee


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## Sunstreaked

My best wishes for you during this difficult time.


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## GSDBESTK9

Sue, I'm so very sorry for your loss, what a nightmare.  I sure hope the little puppy makes it. Being a breeder can definitely be very devastating some times.  People have no idea of the risks and the money involved, they think it is all gain. :nono:


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## ZebsMommy

Hope that Odessa and Little Pup are doing ok. They are in my thoughts. I cannot imagine what you all have gone through.


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## holland

I am so sorry for your loss Glad Odessa is ok-Hope the puppy makes it


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## AgileGSD

selzer said:


> I had some milk replacer. I bought years ago. But it was in a can so I did not think anything of it, hoped I would never need it. Anyhow, not sure it was the best stuff to use. I will get some good stuff at the vet tonight.


 Your best bet is to make your own. Commercial milk replacers are not all that good for puppies, even ones bought from the vet. They are linked to autoimmune issues and eye problems such as cataracts. Leerburg has a good recipe and great instructions: Leerburg | Bottle Feeding Puppies

Do ask your vet for fluids for the puppy though. Having fluids on hand with puppies really can be the difference between life and death (I lost a puppy because I didn't and saved one because I did).

Will continue sending good thoughts to puppy and Odessa.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Sue, I read your post and cried. I wish I had something profound and wise to say. There is nothing. I am just so very sorry. You are in my prayers.
Hugs,
Jan


----------



## Good_Karma

GSDBESTK9 said:


> Sue, I'm so very sorry for your loss, what a nightmare.  I sure hope the little puppy makes it. Being a breeder can definitely be very devastating some times.  People have no idea of the risks and the money involved, they think it is all gain. :nono:


Very well put. As sad as the situation is. I hope that Sue's creation of the thread helps people realize the downside to being a breeder.


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## Dejavu

Hoping everything is going well! Keeping you in my thoughts.


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## trudy

Sue please update when you have the time, we are all here for you, we all are upset for you, everyone who has ever bred has either been there or dreaded being there. 35 years ago I leased a GS bitch, a Lance of Fran Jo daughter from Walderuh kennel, she had had 1 litter, bred her to a multi BIS dog from Winnifred Strickland's kennel, (Jimmy Moses and her have a great book out there) Similar thing happened excet mom died too, adn 1 pup made it and the person who had a deposit for pick male took said pup and he died on the road at 4 months. My first and last GS litter.

I hope you do find out what happened to Whitney but do understand if with so much going on and such large vet bills a necropsy may not be in the budget. The reason for a necropsy would be to put your own mind to rest. I am glad Odessa is doing well and that you can breed her again and have a promising litter from a new line, adn I hope the baby makes if and becomes even more exceptional. All our thoughts are with you and yours


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## rjvamp

Just spoke with Sue - she is still feeding the little puppy to get nutrition in the poor little babe and getting some food in mom.


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## Dejavu

Thanks for the update, rjvamp! 
Sending good thoughts to Sue, the mommy and the puppy.


----------



## Runswithdogs

So sorry for what you've been through...I can't even imagine. You, Odessa, and the Little Pup that Could are in my thoughts. I hope she pulls through, we are all rooting for her.


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## AvaLaRue

Just checking in for updates...still praying for the lil one and momma!


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## Lauri & The Gang

Sue - sorry for what you and the dogs have been through.

This just shows that every breeder should have the necessary things on hand when they are expecting puppies. Tube and syringe for tube feeding (and the knowledge on how to use it), fluids and tubing for sub-q (if necessary) and milk replacement (I use unpasturized goats milk - have 2 bottles left in the freezer from Kaynya's last whelping).

I was curious. Isn't it dangerous to ship a bitch that is late into a pregnancy? Personally, I would worry that the stress of such a long flight would cause problems. My girl Tessa reabsorbed a litter because she got stressed out at a dog show. I can only imagine the stress a pregnant bitch would be put through flying over from Germany.


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## bianca

Just stopping by to see how you, Odessa and little one are doing :hugs:


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## Good_Karma

Glad to hear pup and Odessa are okay, every day that passes for that pup means she's more likely to survive, right? Hope you are doing okay too Sue.


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## JakodaCD OA

*so you want to be a breeder*

:thumbup:Lauri and I hope ANYONE who considers breeding will read this thread and are prepared for the emotional and financial aspect of what can happen.


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## cliffson1

Sue,
Hope your little one is winning the battle of life.....my sincere condolences and hope Odessa is doing better as well.
Cliff


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## Dejavu

Hoping everything is well with you, Sue, Odessa and the puppy.

Many hugs for you!


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## Wilhoit

So very sorry that you and the dogs had had to go through all this suffering. Sending my best wishes for a quick recovery for Odessa and a healthy life for the little one. Do try to get some rest!

Yes, this should be a sticky!


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## Good_Karma

Hoping for a good news update...


----------



## Dainerra

I'm hoping that Sue hasn't been back because she is so busy taking care of a growing puppy-girl. *crosses fingers*


----------



## onyx'girl

Sue, thinking of you and your pack. I hope all is well.


----------



## Betty

Sue, you, your pack and the wee little one are in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## AvaLaRue

Has anyone gotten any updates from Sue?


----------



## Dejavu

More hugs and good thoughts for you, Sue.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Yeah - What Leigh said, "Any updates?" I am old and a worrier. I just want to know that Sue is OK. Still praying.


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## RebelGSD

I just read this, what a nightmare...
I am so sorry.

Dogs can get subclinical form of mastitis and the milk can be toxic to the babies. A friend of mine lost a healthy appearing litter that way.

Sending positive thoughts your way.


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## Good_Karma

Keep hoping to see some news...


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## Dejavu

Same here. Sending more good thoughts for Sue and Odessa and puppy!


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## bianca

Ditto. Hoping you and Odessa and the little one are all doing well Sue :hugs:


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## selzer

Update:

Little Pup has GAINED about an ounce and a half since her hospital stay on Monday. Up until Wednesday, I would weigh her before feeding 10.8 ounces, and after, about 11.2 ounces. 

Around nine thirty on Wednesday evening, she was weighing 11.8 ounces before I tube fed, she was with her mother and eating, so I waited an hour and checked her wieght again, no change, I tried again at 1:30 and she was 12.2 ounces. at 4:30 12.2, at about 7 thirty she was down to 11.8, so I went and let my dogs out, and fed them, came in weighed her and tube fed. 

The rest of the day she stayed at 12.2 or so, so I left off tube feeding got the time.

This morning, I tube fed one time, and now she is up to 12.6 ounces.

I will not feel at all comfortable until this pup weighs 2 or maybe five or six pounds. But the positive gain has been heartening.

Anyhow, had to come in and get another light bulb, afraid my current bulb will die. 
And put in some supplies. 

Hope I am not on much the next few days. 

Thank you all for your concern. 

NO, I do not have puppies outside -- it is a gruesome snow storm out there. 

The neighbor's husky mix bitch chained to her dog house had a litter in January outside and all four puppies somehow made it. 

I have learned that c-sections are very different from natural births. I do not think the bitch's temperature is as warm the first few days, and also, I do not think the milk is necessarily as good, maybe they just could not stimulate it enough to produce high test. 

I watched the pups drop weight, and expected some of that. I did call and ask over at Hutch's clinic, and they said as long as the pups were not crying after they had eaten they were ok. 

I do not know why, but had I tube fed when my gut told me to, maybe I could have saved them. Too bad that all happened on a Sunday.

I know that sounds harsh, but putting those pups in a box with the bitch and driving three hours one way in a snow storm, well, by the time I would have gotten them there, the pups that died would have been dead. They went quickly, one after the other. If it happened on Monday, I could have rushed them into town as I did with Little Pup.

So, pretty good news that the little one has gained.


----------



## onyx'girl

Good to hear pup is gaining and still hanging in there!
Hope the rest of your pack is doing well, too. Shame on your neighbor...sad
Thanks for checking in with us, you've been in my thoughts.


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## sagelfn

Happy to hear the little one is still fighting. Keeping you and your pack in my thoughts.


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## Good_Karma

Come on Little Pup! Lots of people rooting for you sweetie.


----------



## Dainerra

glad to hear that she is still holding in there! How long before you can breathe easier?


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## trudy

soo happy to hear she is gaining weight, as a person who had 2 c-sctions and nursed my kids there is always the issue of drugs getting into the breast milk. With people they have you prepped and ready and are standing around before any anesthetic is given. The baby is pulled out very quickly to help prevent too much meds to baby other wise baby is too sleepy to nurse well and to stay awake, and sleeping too soundly lowers temperature, for mom and baby. 

So don't blame yourself, the vets should have told you some of this and maybe kept mom and pups in the hospital, might have cost more but maybe they would have survived. Sure hope all will work out from now on in, and the baby girl continues to gain and do well


----------



## selzer

We are still alive. I am getting way attached to this little, little girl. I am tube feeding a couple of times a day. A little infection in the eye, gave amoxicilin. Taking mom and pup to vet tomorrow. She seems to be doing pretty well now, but not gaining like I would like to see her.


----------



## Mrs.K

Selzer, I've been wondering something and I hope you do not take it the wrong way. I know you've just got that bitch from Germany and she's actually titled. But you've been breeding before, right? And according to your Signature all your dogs have the CGC only and maybe the RN or the Herding Instinct... so... how do you actually test your dogs for breeding? Who does the temperament tests and who is buying your pups?

Are they Show Dogs only? What kind of Shows do you go to? Are they being titled that way? Is it AKC shows? 

I am just curious because I would love to show Yukon and Indra, just don't know how the AKC showing & breeding works. My main problem is that I don't have Yukons Pedigree yet and my mother doesn't seem to be in a hurry to get it for me because it's lost and I can't get it without prove of ownership...to the SV my mother is still the owner, so I am not sure if I could get him registered anyways...


----------



## selzer

They are AKC shows. I have shown in puppy matches in conformation and took the class, best of breed in one, but they are only puppy matches. 

I title in obedience and rally. My dogs are all pretty young. I got titles on all of them and not I am going forward individually. I do not intend on breeding all of them, most of them. Babs nees a leg for her CD. Heidi for her RA. I just got Joy's RN in the mail yesterday. I got two babies to go through their CGCs and RNs. 

In US, there are two types of AKC shows. There are all-breed shows, and there are specialty shows. The GSDs that win in the Specialty ring do not resemble German dogs at all. They are taller, thinner, slopier, with longer, skinnier muzzles amongst other things. So if you want to show your dog, do not enter a specialty show.

But the all breed rings, shows where dogs of many breeds are entered, they seem to be a bit different and I have heard that German dogs can do well in the all breed rings. 

There is also the American Sieger show. And UKC shows. 

I bought this bitch to improve what I am doing going forward. I am considering showing her in an all breed ring. She is really a nice looking bitch, excellent conformation, and her temperament is awesome. 

I do not care if my dog will take out an intruder. I know that makes me kind of a black sheep on here, but I think obedience titles of either type, rally or obedience are sufficient so long as the breeder considers how they worked, not just whether they acheived a title. I prefer to do a CGC as well, because it tests different things than novice or rally. 

I have temperament tested a litter of puppies, and am amazed eighteen months later how accurate that tended to be, so it is something I will have someone come in and do -- cannot do it myself, would skew the test.

Anyway, I hope that answered your questions. 

Oh, who is buying my puppies? I keep trying to sell them to people who will TRAIN them to some end. Early on, my people promised to train the puppies and then did not. That was not good. My last couple of litters, I have been a lot more discriminating. One fellow is training one for schutzhund, another used to work with people and their guide dogs, they are not training the dog as a guide dog, but they are professional trainers. A few others have already shown in obedience/rally. Some days I am just happy to know they have gotten the pup in classes.


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## Good_Karma

How is Odessa doing? And the little one? And you?


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## selzer

Odessa is questionable today. She stopped bleeding again, now she is not interested in food and is lying around most of today. Had her to the vet yesterday and it took them quite a while to get the staples out, but she was acting just fine. When she got home, she took to her cot. 

I was bringing her food to her, and bringing the pup to her, etc. A while ago, I told her to go into the whelping box, and then I told her to lie down. Her puppy went to her, when I came back she was taking good care of her. I am watching her, will take her temp again. If she does not start getting more interested in food, I am going to start the amoxicilan and see if that helps her -- the vet told me to do this. 

Little Pup is gaining weight, slowly, but she is up over 13 ounces and holding.

I am fine. I feel still a little shocked about Whitney. I forgot to check my propane. I checked this morning and am out. I called -- seven to ten days!!! I asked to expeditite, they said they are not expediting now. Why have an EMERGENCY number if you will not expedite??? I worried all day and called other companies before calling back. The guy said, sure they will expedite it. The fee is astranomical, but it will come tomorrow. 

Anyhow, thems the breaks. I am hoping my girl starts feeling more herself. I am a little worried about her now.


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## sagelfn

Keeping you all in my thoughts:hugs:

What is a normal birth weight of a GSD pup?


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## selzer

about a pound. Usually mine are between 13 and 19 ounces. 

She was 16 ounces. So no she has not regained her birthweight yet. 

But we are gaining. Just very slowly. 

She seems very lively, active, she sucks like something possessed off her mother. 

I am tubing about three times a day 11 ccs each time. I am afraid to go more. I am hoping she will gain more from her mother. We are trying to bottle feed too. But that has been pretty painful.


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## Zoeys mom

I hope things turn around soon. Hopefully mamma will feel better in another week and the puppy will begin to put on some good weight. Active is a good sign though so pray for a turn for the better


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## sagelfn

Thanks for the info. I was thinking she was born much smaller size than normal.


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## Dejavu

I'm glad to hear the puppy is gaining weight, even if slowly. And that she's lively and active of course! 
Sending good thoughts and hugs for you, Odessa and the little puppy!:hugs::hugs::hugs:


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## selzer

Thanks, no, they were normal sized pups when born. The bitch is proper sized bitch which many people would consider small here. She weighs 64.9 pounds. 

They were slow to get going, from either the anesthetic or the c-section/lack of birth process, or because their placentas were separating by the time we got them out.

When you have an eight or even an eleven ounce puppy and it does not make it, you think well, it happens. But when decent sized pups go, it is really disheartening. Some people plan on having c-sections. I cannot imagine that. I wish I did not have to do it that way. 

This pup dropped down to 10.8 ounces and was more dead than alive a week ago. It is 13.3 ounces now. Two of the days I only supplemented once thinking that she was sucking good from the dam and would be ok, but she dropped some weight that had been gained. Now I am supplementing three times and getting weight gain every day. 

I just wish she would gain without the extra help. It makes me worry about both Odessa and Little Pup.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Prayers for you, Odessa and lil' pup!


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## RubyTuesday

Sue, gaining by whatever method works is reasonable. I'm a maniac for breastfeeding. My girl was (blush)almost 4 when I finally wrestled her loose. My sister formula fed all 3 of hers (& weaned 'em ~1yr old). She was quite honestly, & objectively, the much better mother. Don't feel guilty, or overly concerned, if much of the weight gain is from a balanced, high quality formula.

I'm so sorry about the other pups & especially your beautiful Whitney. Pups are cute but adults are golden.

I hope everything goes well with Odessa & Little Pup. They certainly deserve it & you, too.


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## bianca

Still sending prayers your way :hugs:


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## Good_Karma

It sounds like you are still just taking it one day at a time, which is probably the best thing to do. I hope Odessa gets to feeling better, she sure has been through a lot lately.

I was wondering about how you were dealing with Whitney. It's not like you have had the time to properly grieve.  I'm hoping for a complete change of luck for you very, very soon.


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## selzer

Well, with all that has been going on, I forgot to look at my propane tank. I ran out of propane yesterday. 

I called them on the emergency line, and they said 7-10 days!!! I asked if they would expedite and they said no. I was frantic for most of the day, and called back and they said, sure they expedite. Hmmmm. 

Anyway, propane finally arrived today. The pup was ok, because I had the heater on and her lightbulb, but the house was COLD. 

Anyhow, now it is warming up. I do not want to even go into the pilot light issue.

We are gaining like .3 ounces per day. Today I tubed her twice so far, and bottle fed twice. She is currently nursing like a demon pup on her mother. I feel like if I can just get her up to a pound, I can get her to gain 1-2 ounces per day.

She looks great though, her fur is thick and she is active, and she makes lots of noise -- little whelp! I am very attached to her. Letting this one go to her new home is going to be really tough. The only good thing is that I know the person who is taking her, and I will be able to watch her grow up.

As for Whitney, I am just beside myself. I am afraid I will wake up and find another dead. It will take some time to get over it. Today id cards for her and tori and heidi came in the mail -- they had their yearly checkups/shots end of December.


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## Larien

First of all, Sue (hope it's okay if I call you that) I am just now getting around to reading this thread, and I am so utterly sorry for everything that's happened that I'm honestly in tears for you all - all I can say is that you have a lot of people with you in their thoughts, including me, and who understand, I lost my big boy in August from bloat, and I know that horrible heart wrenching feeling. I will pray that Odessa's living puppies continue to do well for you, we are all pulling for them, and that your heart is able to heal. Ugh I just feel so bad, I also know what it's like to have one hideous thing slap you in the face after another.. Anyway, hang in there, I'll be thinking of you guys. <3


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## Good_Karma

Was your vet able to give you a definitive diagnosis of what took Whitney? It certainly sounded horrific. Maybe if you understood what happened to her, it would help you be less afraid for the rest of your dogs.


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## smdaigle

Selzer, I just read this thread and wanted to say that my heart goes out to you! I can't imagine the stress of all that you've been through with the Odessa and her pups and then to lose Whitney at the same time? Wow. Our 12 yr male died suddenly last October and that was hard enough by itself.

I hope Little Pup and Whitney continue to improve. 

And no, I don't want to be a breeder. I have lots of respect for those of you who have chosen to do it and who know what you are doing! My best to you and your pack!


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## selzer

14 ounces, she is going around the whelping box now like crazy -- not afraid for her to not be able to find her warm spot. 

I put the fake lambswool whelping box liner back in to help her traction. But her mother keeps messing it up and making me crazy. 

Odessa likes gunk, and potato soup. Gunk is meatballs (in this case made out of ground round) cooked in tomato soup -- condensed and double the water, along with potatoes. Spinach Chicken with rice is not high on her list of edible foods. Eggs and yogurt and cheese are though. 

Mom and pup seem to be doing very well today. Little Pup is still nursing like a demon puppy. But I am at this point afraid not to supplement.


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## onyx'girl

Sounds like things are on an upswing. I hope pup will be able to exclusively nurse, so much better for her and Odessa! Glad to hear she likes something nutritious too!


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## Larien

Glad they are well, please do continue to keep us updated!


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## Jessiewessie99

I have been keep tabs on this thread. I am glad everything is doing well. 

I am very sorry for what happened to Whitney.

Please keep us updated!


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## Good_Karma

I'm so glad to hear appetites are good in your house! I can see why you have become so attached to little pup. You saved her life. It will be hard to give her away.


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## bianca

This is a great update to read! Hoping they both continue to eat and thrive.


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## Wilhoit

So sorry that Whitney was taken in such a sudden and shocking manner, but so very glad that you are succeeding in keeping going through all this and that Lil Pup and Odessa seem to be starting to thrive. I understood that Odessa's sweet nature had you "wrapped around her front dewclaw," but that was illustrated when reading about your homecooked menu choices for her. Way to go! Get some rest yourself, too!


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## selzer

Little Pup is 14.5 ounces today, her one eye is opening, and I caught her motivating about the box on her tiny legs today. She is certainly not walking yet, but I am not sure what else you would call it. 

Odessa is doing good. She likes mac and cheese too. She freaks out when I put a DVD on, she seems to think there is someone in the house, and barks her head off. I wonder that she lived somewhere without a TV. 

Last night when I brought the others in, she was a lot more interested in the procedure than normal. I first put food in all the crates, then I bring them in two at a time, and crate them immediately, trying not to upset her. I have a four foot x-pen separating Odessa from the others, and some four foot shower board so it is solid, but she gets up on her cot, and puts her front feet on the top of the board and looks over it. She does not try to go over it, nor does she try to go over the 39 inch baby gate -- there is also a good sized step so the overall height is probably more like 44 inches. But if she wanted to, she could probably get over it. So if I do leave for any reason, I put Babsy in a crate. 

It was COLD last night, and will be COLD tonight too. 

Odessa is doing good, and Little Pup is too. I wish her weight would start taking off.


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## rjvamp

Yall try to stay warm. Keeping them in my thoughts and prayers and you too! I know this is exhausting for you. Hugs from COLD Minnesota too - it was in the negatives....I'm sure in some spots still.


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## Dejavu

selzer said:


> Little Pup is 14.5 ounces today, her one eye is opening, and I caught her motivating about the box on her tiny legs today. She is certainly not walking yet, but I am not sure what else you would call it.


I'm so glad to hear they're doing fine! That's so cute!

If I could I'd send you a bit of our less cold weather. Well, it's going to be "cold" tonight for our standards (around 45-48 F), but I bet that for you that's nothing. :crazy:

Sending hugs and good wishes your way!!


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## DharmasMom

I am glad they are both doing well. I am sure it will be a relief when she does weigh more though.


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## Good_Karma

Sounds very encouraging!


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## Jessiewessie99

Great news!! Still sending good vibes!


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## selzer

About 15.5 ounces today -- after bottle feeding. I just cannot seem to get her to gain weight on her mother. I was at my sisters for an extended period yesterday. Tube fed in the morning, and full she was 15 ounces. I got home in the evening, and she was 14.8, I tube fed again, got her to 15.2, before bed. This morning, she was 14.9, tube fed, 15.3, and then bottle fed, 15. 5. Tonight I will probably tube feed again, depending on whether she loses any of that or feels not so full. Otherwise it will be the bottle.

Tube is easier and quicker, really. Slowly, very slowly we are creeping up ward. 

Her eyes are open now. She is a feisty little thing. 

My sister's kids named her Cupcake. So for the next six weeks or so, Cupcake she will be.


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## Stevenzachsmom

AWWW! I think Cupcake is a GREAT name for a GSD.


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## selzer

If this one does not start GROWING soon, it is going to be a purse-sized GSD, called Cupcake. A teacup GSD, Cupcake. LOL!!!!


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## Stevenzachsmom

I want one. HA!


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## ChristenHolden

I think we need to see some pictures of little Cupcake.


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## Good_Karma

I vote for pictures of Cupcake too!


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## rjvamp

Angeles' breeder had one that was so small - she called her Mini....so cute!!! but she ended up growing to normal size...was just a runt to begin with....A friend of mine took her and named her "Sable" as she is a Sable German Shepherd.

I would like to see cupcake!


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## DharmasMom

I vote for pictures of Cupcake as well!!


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## WarrantsWifey

Oh GENIUS! I want to see cupcake too! Our little fighter!!


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## sagelfn

Happy to hear little cupcake is still gaining.

Hope I'm not being a downer by asking but is there any health risk or issue if she doesn't start gaining soon?


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## selzer

Cupcake's Tail, I mean Tale:

Hi, I'm Odessa, Cupcakes, Momma. She's sleeping right now. So we have to be quiet.










Yes, her eyes are opened, now, ears can't be far behind, and she has already had a tough little road to haul.









When she was first born, she seemed to be doing alright:









But then she got pretty sick:









I was very worried:









I sometimes let Susie sleep too:









I had to be so careful, so she would stay warm:









Susie fed her a lot, but I did most of the bathing:









I DID NOT BATHE HER TOO MUCH, SUSIE!!!









This is her today, she has grown back quite a bit:









Thank you all for your kind thoughts and prayers:


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## WarrantsWifey

Awww, I love cupcakes tale.... <3 Thanks so much for the pictures!! What a little bit you have there!!


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## DharmasMom

Awww, she is little but so adorable and tough! And Odessa is obviously a very good momma! I love all of the pics but my favorite is the one where she is smuggled up with her by her face! So sweet!


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## liv

Odessa looks like such a good mom :wub: Such a cute little Cupcake! Take care, all three of you!!


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## CassandGunnar

The next time someone complains about the price of a puppy, I'm going to make them read this and then try my hardest not to slap them.

My wife just finished reading this entire thread and was crying when she finished.
We're both glad to hear that things are getting better.


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## Dejavu

AWWWWWWW man, that's adorable beyond words! She's such a great mom! And you are too!


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## Zoeys mom

They are both looking good Sue glad to see the pup is gaining and mom is looking bright and chipper


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## Jessiewessie99

She is sooo cute!!! And Odessa is a beauty!


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## ChristenHolden

AWWW how are you ever going to part with her? it would be to hard to not keep her after all that, I hope you are doing better and the rest of your crew are doing well!


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## bianca

Oh Little Cupcake you keep feeding and getting bigger so you stop worrying your mum and Susie!


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## AvaLaRue

Awww so nice to see the pics and hear the updates. Odessa looks like such a great momma. I do not think I could part with Cupcake after everything you've been thru with her.


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## Good_Karma

What a miracle! Sue you are amazing, you really put so much into saving her. I love the pictures!


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## Dyan

Welcome to my world. Been there done that! It's all good that ends good. Glad it worked for you. What is money anyway!

If you want to be a breeder plan on having no life, no sleep, and not enough time to play with your dogs because you work 24/8!


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## selzer

Cupcake is over a pound now. 

Did anyone ever mention that nursing is a full-body workout???

First she travels back and fourth to find the best nozzle. She rears her little head and pumps back and fourth, in and out, spearing into her mother while her front legs pummel the area and her back legs paddle. Even her tail wags. 

I think the reason she gains weight when I tube feed her is that she does not have to expend all that energy removing the milk from the teet.


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## Larien

Oh my goodness Sue, Cupcake is precious! And Odessa... wow she is breathtakingly beautiful, not just in physical form but in heart, what an incredible mother! Thanks so much for sharing the photos!

I told my mom about this a few days ago, and today she asked me, "I wonder how little Cupcake is doing?" That little girl has a lot of people pulling for her! I couldn't wait to see if she'd reached a pound!

How are you doing, are you holding up alright? You must be exhausted!


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## DharmasMom

YAY!!! 1lb!!! Woo-hoo!!! There is no stopping her now!!!


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## bocron

Glad to see mom and pup doing so well. I'm going Friday to pick up my girl who was also an only surviving pup after an emergency c-section. Breeder says she is spunky and spoiled .


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## Wilhoit

One pound! Ahhh, this is good to hear. Odessa is lovely and Cupcake is sooo cute. Thank you for the pics!


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## Dejavu

selzer said:


> Cupcake is over a pound now.
> 
> Did anyone ever mention that nursing is a full-body workout???
> 
> First she travels back and fourth to find the best nozzle. She rears her little head and pumps back and fourth, in and out, spearing into her mother while her front legs pummel the area and her back legs paddle. Even her tail wags.
> 
> I think the reason she gains weight when I tube feed her is that she does not have to expend all that energy removing the milk from the teet.


Haha!! Oh so cuuuuuute!! Glad to hear she's doing so well!

One pound puppy = :happyboogie:


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## selzer

we are 19 ounces now. 

We had our first socialization experience. My nieces got to see Cupcake for a few minutes. 

Lapping formula is extremely messy. 

Bottles feeding is less messy.


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## onyx'girl

19 ounces, she is a lil thing! How old is she now?


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## selzer

three weeks.

But she gained 1.5 ounces yesterday. That was pretty cool.


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## trudy

Aren't most pups over a pound when born??? So a birth weight at 3 weeks, does that mean she is behind developmentally too?? Does she walk? run? play? Will she have health issues that go with not gaining or thriving?? Does she have any digestive issues?? What does your vet say?? REmember I am not a breeder just curious, I know the Belgian litter I am interested in is a week old and walking and trying to start wrestling litter mates, cute videos have been taken of them


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## Zoeys mom

You should read the entire thread....

Sue I'm glad cupcake is catching up fast and doing well I can't wait to see updated pics


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## Good_Karma

Agree, we need another picture update. I'll post a picture of Rosa for you if you post a new picture of Cupcake.


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## trudy

I have read the whole thread and have checked in daily to see how things are going, but I still wonder, when I read how a 3 day old GS is 1 lb 7.5 oz, (23.5 oz), I am curious, we all know preemies are often behind the number of months that they were born early and the weight does eventually catch up but they are behind that time, so I was wondering if pups were the same. I am sure others are wondering the same thing


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## Mrs.K

trudy said:


> I have read the whole thread and have checked in daily to see how things are going, but I still wonder, when I read how a 3 day old GS is 1 lb 7.5 oz, (23.5 oz), I am curious, we all know preemies are often behind the number of months that they were born early and the weight does eventually catch up but they are behind that time, so I was wondering if pups were the same. I am sure others are wondering the same thing


That and a lot of other things. For an experienced breeder it wasn't handled very well but this is not the place and time to point fingers since it's about the pups well-being. Plus things happen... whether we like it or not...


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## trudy

I really am not trying to be critical, I am simply wondering, I don't know if this would be liek a preemie with everything delayed, like can pup see?? walk?? i am truly curious


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## GSDBESTK9

What a cute little baby, she sure is a fighter! :wub:


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## gagsd

trudy said:


> Aren't most pups over a pound when born??? So a birth weight at 3 weeks, does that mean she is behind developmentally too?? Does she walk? run? play? Will she have health issues that go with not gaining or thriving?? Does she have any digestive issues?? What does your vet say?? REmember I am not a breeder just curious, I know the Belgian litter I am interested in is a week old and walking and trying to start wrestling litter mates, cute videos have been taken of them


 

My girl Elf was only 200 grams when born.... less than 1/2 a pound. She grew up just fine.


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## DharmasMom

Any new pics of Cupcake??


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## Larien

Yeah, my mom keeps asking me how Cupcake is doing, lol! Update us on that little stinker! And mama, how is that gorgeous girl?


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## selzer

A few more pictures:

Excuse all the hair, Mom is shedding right now.

On a mission:










What is that Mom has?:









I got one of my own:









It's almost as long as me:









I turned it over!:









It's a PILLOW:









I got other toys too:









A a cool sleepy thingy:









Sometimes I get too tired to climb in it:









And crash on the papers:









That was tiring:









Thanks for looking:


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## lizzyjo

That is the sweetest thing I have ever seen. AWE


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## Dejavu

AWWWW!! That last picture melted my heart, so so SO cute!!

Glad to hear they're both doing well, thank so much for sharing the pictures.


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## robinhuerta

She looks like a tiny bear cub! 
Grow strong lil baby!


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## Larien

AWWWWW She is SO CUTE! You can see her developing a little personality now! That last pic is just too precious for words - I'm so glad she's doing well, hugs and kisses to all of you! <3


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## selzer

She SOUNDS like a tiny bear cub when she is fighting with her mother. I mean playing, well, play fighting. It is funny to see a sixty some pound bitch carefully going for the throat and front leg of a 2.5 pound puppy. And the little one gives her some vocalizations that makes you wonder how that came out of that teeney tiny baby.


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## Jessiewessie99

How adorable!!


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## irongrl

She is adorable..:wub::wub::wub:


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## HankGSD

I love all the pictures! Both girls are so pretty.

This thread really brought tears to my eyes. Sending good wishes and prayers your way.


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## DharmasMom

OMG!! She is soooo cute!!! I love her and want her!! And that las pic...just...awwwww.


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## Whiteshepherds

She's beautiful and I'm so glad she made it. You did a great job, I know it was really stressful.

So...are you going to keep her??


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## selzer

No. She goes to the lady for whom the stud fee was paid. 

This lady is a friend of mine, we train together a lot, and have gone to shows together, and go to club meetings together, so I know it is a good home, and I know that I will get to see her as she grows up.


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## robinhuerta

Is she going "in lieu" of the stud fee?
If so...that's sad. All your sweat & tears...to be given away.
*As a stud dog owner...(personally)...a one puppy litter, does not constitute a breeding.
I would repeat the breeding, before I would ever take the single surviving puppy....it just doesn't seem fair to me.
Not saying anything negative about your stud dog's owner or your prior agreement...just stating what "my" personal reaction would be...considering the same consequences.
...nothing more.
Robin


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## selzer

There is more to it than just the stud fee. I am ok with it. Both of us were excited about her coming, and the breeding.


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## spiritsmom

She is adorable and I am so glad that you will still be able to see her regularly after she goes to her new home. She may be small but she sure is mighty!


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## Good_Karma

She is just precious!


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## bianca

I hope the new owner will keep the name Cupcake! 

She is so precious :wub:


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## gsdraven

selzer said:


> She SOUNDS like a tiny bear cub when she is fighting with her mother. I mean playing, well, play fighting. It is funny to see a sixty some pound bitch carefully going for the throat and front leg of a 2.5 pound puppy. And the little one gives her some vocalizations that makes you wonder how that came out of that teeney tiny baby.


They both look great! I think we really need video of this.


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## DharmasMom

Any new pics??


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## selzer

Not yet. Maybe tomorrow. She was 4.25 pounds this morning.


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## DharmasMom

She's a regular little horse now isn't she?  I can't wait to see her!!


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## selzer

We are 4 3/4 pounds at 5.5 weeks old. Got my camera working today...

Hi, I am Cupcake:









Since I have no littermates, I have to fight with my mom:


















The Stand Off:









Help!!! Susie, she is biting me!:









UNCLE!!!









Truce:









Our profiles are similar:









This is my Full Bite:









I still lose my balance--kind of embarrassing, really:









Now that I have vanquished my foe...:









I am ready for the next major contestant, you with that funny box thing...









Thanks for looking.


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## codmaster

What a cute pair!!!!!!!!!


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## Jax's Mom

I love the first pic! :wub:
She kinda reminds me of "Pedo-bear" LOL... The little cartoon bear that people Photoshop into ordinarily innocent pics of kids making them cute but creepy:


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## sagelfn

:wub: She is a little doll
Odessa looks like she's doing a great job too

Is she close to normal weight now?


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## DharmasMom

YAY!!! Cupcake!! She is so freaking cute!! I just love her!! And Odessa looks like such a great mom, I love the pics where she is just looking at her. She really is gorgeous!! Love her too!!


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## selzer

sagelfn said:


> :wub: She is a little doll
> Odessa looks like she's doing a great job too
> 
> Is she close to normal weight now?


Hard to say. Usually at least a pound for each week they are old, so she should be nearing six pounds now. Arwen was six pounds at just under six weeks old when I got her. But Arwen had about ten pounds on Odessa. Dogs grow at different rates. Slow and steady is better than rapid growth. So I am not overly concerned with her weight at this point.

She is gaining weight nicely now, and seems to be active and strong. If her bite is any indication... She is doing just fine.

I told her new owner that she will not want her because she is small, has a curly coat, is viscious, bites, is wicked toward her mother -- but it isn't working, she still wants her, LOL.


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## onyx'girl

Gosh Sue, I really don't know how on earth you can give Cupcake up after all you've done to save her. I hope her family will know how special she is and let her do everything she has the potential to do!
Oh, and put it in the contract that they cannot change her name!!


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## selzer

This one will be very hard to let go, for me and for her mother. Tube feeding is not personal like bottle feeding. Bottle feeding when you are there holding her, and her little eyes look into yours, and melt you. Yeah, it is a different. We are beyond tubes and bottles now, but I still hold her in the crook of my arm. I turn her over and tickle her belly. She bites me.


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## Larien

OMG she is ADORABLE, and turning out to be quite the little beauty! She has such a determined expression, it's no surprise she survived, she's got spirit! I can't imagine how you'll give her up (it's why I stick to the stud side in miniature horses) but hopefully you will see her often!


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## bianca

Can you tell the new owner that Cupcake has HAD to go into the witness protection program?!

She is looking so good :wub:and gosh Odessa is just beautiful :wub:


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## Good_Karma

I love that last one of her looking up at you! How much longer will you be able to keep her? Better cherish each day! She's such a doll.


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## Jessiewessie99

She is soooo cute!


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## selzer

Good_Karma said:


> I love that last one of her looking up at you! How much longer will you be able to keep her? Better cherish each day! She's such a doll.


Tomorrow she will be six weeks old. I know the new owner thinks I am rediculous, but I am not letting her go until eight weeks. Especially since she is weaned. But her mother PLAYS with her. I am sure she is teaching her some of the things a litter would teach her, like dog manners, and bite inhibition. 

If it was just me, I would have let her go already, as every day that goes by endears her to me even more. 

The house will be emptier when she goes home.


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## Good_Karma

I think it's the right thing to do, keeping her the full 8 weeks. I've heard that singleton litters can be problematic with teaching bite inhibition.

Maybe I'll have to let you borrow Rosa for a little while when Cupcake leaves.


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## selzer

Cupcake or Church?

Demon or Teething puppy?

We report, You decide...

Here she is at seven weeks, six pounds ten ounces, ears up:
Cupcake:


















Starting the transformation to Church... Na na, Na na:









How about a bit of thumb:









Finger is tasty too:









Getting ready for sleeve work:









Check out dem eyes!:


















Hope you enjoyed them.


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## CassandGunnar

MONGO like pretty puppy.

MONGO want pretty puppy!!!!!!!

:gsdbeggin:


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## DharmasMom

Yay!!! Cupcake pics!! She is so freakin cute!! I just love her!!


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## wolfstraum

There is no way I'd let one go at 6 weeks....and in PA it is the law that they cannot go home before 8 weeks....

She is very cute!!!! How big is she now???? 

Lee


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## selzer

She is seven weeks today at 6 pounds 10 ounces. No chance I would let her go at six weeks. But, our law is a little different here. For one thing, she is not being sold, she belongs to the person for whom the stud fee was paid and will be handed over. She is pretty antsy to get her too. 

She would be fine at this point as she has no siblings for the whole litter experience, but her mom still plays with her, and is giving her some good lessons. So, I will keep her until eight weeks. I would keep her for ten, but at some point, she it will be no better here with me, than there with her. 

I do trust and respect the person she is going to, I know she will take good care of her and do the training and titling and such. 

I have just one more week with my little Cupcake. Uhg! Giving her up is going to be horrible.


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## Good_Karma

CassandGunnar said:


> MONGO like pretty puppy.
> 
> MONGO want pretty puppy!!!!!!!
> 
> :gsdbeggin:


LOL, obscure Blazing Saddles reference, I love it!

Cupcake is too cute for words!


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## selzer

selzer said:


> Tomorrow she will be six weeks old. I know the new owner thinks I am rediculous, but I am not letting her go until eight weeks. Especially since she is weaned. But her mother PLAYS with her. I am sure she is teaching her some of the things a litter would teach her, like dog manners, and bite inhibition.
> 
> *If it was just me, I would have let her go already, as every day that goes by endears her to me even more.
> *
> The house will be emptier when she goes home.


Maybe this is where the confusion is, if it were for me that I was holding on to the puppy, I would let her go, because every day she worms her way into my soul farther. But for the puppy, I am keeping her the whole eight weeks because I think it is beneficial for her to have at least the contact with her dam for this long.


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## CassandGunnar

Good_Karma said:


> LOL, obscure Blazing Saddles reference, I love it!
> 
> Cupcake is too cute for words!


 
Top 3 of my all time favorite movies.............LOL.
I watch it about 4 times a year.


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## GSD_Xander

Oh, she is such a doll!


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## Larien

She's beautiful, Sue... ah she's come such a long way, it's wonderful to see her healthy and happy and almost ready to go home. I know it'll be difficult, but we're here for ya! I hope the person knows that Cupcake is very loved by lots of people and that she'd better spoil her!


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## spiritsmom

Ah she is such a cutie - Odessa you did good sweetheart! Rough start but you wouldn't know it to look at Cupcake now! She's a little shark!


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## Jessiewessie99

Cupcake is a cutie!!


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## bianca

:wub: Only one more week to see Cupcake pic's  Sniff, sniff...


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## idahospud49

Just found this thread. Cupcake is adorable!! And Odessa is GORGEOUS. The second to last batch of pictures, there is the first one with just her head... WOW. She has such a sweet beautiful face.


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## DharmasMom

selzer, I think you should insist to Cupcake's new owner that she update us regularly with new pics. Cupcake has alot of fans here and I know that, at least in my case, I will be very heartbroken not to see how she is doing in the future!


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## selzer

Well, today is Cupcakes last day with me. I do not think the new owner will update. She has said that her name will be German, as she is German, and Cupcake is not Noble enough. How do you say cupcake in German? 

But I went ahead and took some pictures, 55 to be exact, and kept 20 of them, and will post a couple. 

She is 8 pounds 5 ounces today. She licks toes and ears, bites noses until you say OUCH! and then licks, does not stop biting arms and fingers and thumbs so long as there is opportunity. 

I am going to miss the little pirannah. 










Odessa looks so proud of her:









So serious:









Mirror image of the last one:









Loves her mamma:









Hearing is ok:


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## DharmasMom

Wow. She has gotten so big and come so far. She really is quite the looker, absolutely adorable and Odessa looks so in love with her!

And I am sorry but Cupcakes new owner sounds like quite the ****. First she was pushing to have Cake leave her mother early when those extra weeks with her mother probably did her a world of good. Second, for her to say the name "Cupcake" doesn't sound noble enough...please. It was perfect her for her when she was a tiny, under weight hand fed baby who needed your help to get started in life and survive the first few weeks. And I could be wrong but was this the friend who went with you to the vet for those emergency runs and didn't I read that she also complained about having to make those runs. I also agree with the poster who stated several pages back that one survivng puppy does not constitute a litter and you should not have to give up the only surving pup and this woman should not hold you to that promise. Especially considering the bond you have developed with this baby girl. 

I truly admire you for sticking to it though, cuz I couldn't do it.


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## Good_Karma

I cannot believe how much she has grown! It certainly doesn't seem like her rough start has had any lasting impacts on her. You did a really great job of keeping her alive, and you poured your heart into her. I know it must be just awful to let her go.

Rosa sends her love  and a little present for you in the pictures section.


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## bianca

:hugs: 

You have done such a great job getting lil Cupcake to this stage.


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## WarrantsWifey

It's sad to know, these are the last pictures we'll get of little cupcake. I don't care of what she changes the name too. She will always be our little cupcake!!!


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## trudy

so will you breed Odessa next heat?? and if so have you decided to whom?? Sure hope another cupcake is born for you, well not the problems, just the cuteness/lovable part. A perfect whelping and rearing but that one special one for you to connect to


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## lizzyjo

:wub:bye, bye cupcake. We will miss you and I know your forever mommie will too....:wub:


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## selzer

Thanks all, Cupcake is home now. I told her that if she ever needs to rehome her for any reason, I want her back. 

I do intend to breed Odessa again, not sure about when though. Not until she is ready. Right now she is OVERWEIGHT, and I needed to get Cupcake home so I can put her on a diet. I kind of had to leave food available to the puppy and could not really keep Odessa from helping herself.

When I breed her, I do intend to keep a male out of Odessa. His name will be Kojak. I do have the dog picked out too, he is a very nice German showline dog. The pup will be linebred on Pakros d'Ulmental, and Karma vom Oschentor. 

But I hope I never have to do a c-section again. I am so ready for a puppy right now -- mentally anyway.


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## ChristenHolden

oooooo i hope theres a soild black male in that litter lol *wink wink*


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## CaliBoy

Selzer:

You are brave indeed. It is heart breaking enough to give up a baby under normal circumstances, but you poured your heart, soul, and entire being into little Cupcake. She was more special, I think, because of that, and now you have had to say goodbye. Just one look in her eyes, and I think the puppy's heart is just as sad tonight as yours is. She totally adores you.

:teary:

I watched a relative's dog for only some months, and I was a blubbering mess when her mommy came to get her back. The one consolation is that she is going to someone who loves her very much and she will be in good hands.


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## Stevenzachsmom

We are all gonna miss getting our "Cupcake" fix. But....Sue - You did a great job!


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## selzer

Thanks to all. Odessa and I made it through the night. I had taken her with me yesterday, when we got home, she went right to the whelping box and looked in. She looked around, and then went outside. About an hour later, I had to call her inside. I gave her a pig's ear and she liked that. When I went to bed, she was lying on her cot. 

This morning I took her out to Far Field and threw the ball for her for a while. She has awesome play drive and really enjoyed that. Made me late for opening up the shop -- well the Amerigas man came too, and well, between the two I was pretty late. 

I think this is in all a good thing. I would have kept this pup in a heartbeat, but I have to work with Babs and Heidi for the next two weeks, and then Dolly is a year old, and I haven't really started her yet, time to get off my butt with her. That is another story though and not something I could really address in this thread.


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## Jessiewessie99

Are you going to be able to see her as she grows up?


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## selzer

Maybe. We were going to go to training classes together with our pups, and show them together. But mine didn't make it. But we still do a lot of stuff together -- shows and such, if she has something to show. So I expect I will see her sometimes.


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## Jessiewessie99

Yay!!


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## LuvourGSDs

Coming in WAY late on this thread Sue, but I am SO VERY SORRY for what you have been through, oh my !    

 Odessa is one beautiful girl & her pup.................. :wub: :wub:

~Take Care~ Sue & so sorry to hear about Whitney & the pups :hugs:


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## selzer

Cupcake is doing good. Talked to her owner today. She says she doesn't bite when she has food to eat -- thinks I did not feed her. But she is not keeping her up all night, and she likes to watch TV. I told her, of course she does. The TV in my house is right in front of the whelping area, so she was able to hear it if not see it the couple of times I had it on.


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