# So much for reactivity not being the same as aggression?



## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

...and it is all my fault.

I am so upset with myself, even though neither dog was bleeding, no punctures found. I totally screwed up. She pulled the leash right out of my hand, it should have been around my wrist. 

She had looked at this dog, but it was ~50 feet away and she wasn't doing anything else (her usual is a screaming mess seeing another dog). She even looked back at me and wanted to do obedience, which we did...until we were continuing our walk. I should have kept her attention better as well. I am just picking myself apart. By them time I saw her posture change, she was on the move as I helplessly tried to stop her. I couldn't grab her leash, and she wouldn't listen either. So much for that obedience.

I was reading so much about how reactive dogs are just frustrated, scared or blah blah blah, but I just can't buy it anymore. WHY would she go after this dog from over 50 feet away? What on earth was going on in her head to think that this would fix her problem? Why can't she realize it is just easier to walk away? How am I going to convince her that other dogs are allowed to exist? The other dog was staring at her, but FFS...they do that. She doesn't need to be "that guy at the bar" who wants to brawl with anyone who "looks at him funny".

So frustrated. I thought we were making progress, and I am really hurt...does she just have bad nerves? Was she traumatized as a younger dog (she went through 3 shelters/rescues before ending up with me)? 

Now I'm really paranoid taking her out at all. I am trying to learn from this, but I'm still upset and beating myself up. I simultaneously think "no harm, no foul" and "Could have been worse! MUCH WORSE"


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Your all over the place here. Explain in detail what happened. Did she run up on the dog and attack? Did she run up to the dog in excitement and the other dog snapped, causing them to fight? Did the leash get away from you or were you doing off leash obedience? Have you had her evaluated? Does she wear a prong? Do you have a trainer?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Putting the leash around your wrist is a very good way to have it broken.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You made a mistake and learned from it.Sometimes things happen so fast that a moment's hesitation means it all goes south.Next time will be different.The other dog staring at yours is rude and confrontational in "dog speak".
Do you still have the e collar on her?Next time she does more than a quick and casual glance,correct and redirect.Every single time.You will probably have to manage this her whole life.It gets so much easier when she understands she will never ever get away with it and a verbal reminder is all she'll need.
You'll be alright.Stay alert and keep on like you were doing with the trainer.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I always used the terms interchangeably. That's probably wrong. Not sure it matters.

My GSD, Annie was dog aggressive. I adopted her from the shelter, when she was 2 years old. No idea what her history was. That doesn't really matter either. She clearly did not like other dogs. I took an approach, which I am sure others would disagree with. At the end of the day, it is what worked for Annie and me.

When I took Annie for a walk, she wore a prong collar and a soft mesh muzzle. I could release the muzzle quickly, if need be. We kept our distance from other dogs. Seeing a GSD with a muzzle kept most people and their dogs out of our space. We avoided other dogs, as much as possible - crossed the street, went the other way, just kept going. "Let's go!" Fast pace. We never stopped. As years - yes 'years' went by, Annie learned to ignore other dogs. In her later years, she even had a few doggie friends.

Annie was wonderful with people and adored all children. When my kids had friends over, she thought they had come just to see her. We have a large backyard. Annie got lots of exercise and was able to play in the yard. When the kids were outside, Annie was outside. She had no access to other dogs. Her reactivity/aggression was never an issue. I didn't allow anything to happen. It was managed.

I accepted that Annie was not a 'go everywhere' kind of dog. She lived a long contented life at home. She was loved. Everyone was safe. I had no stress about her hurting another dog, because, she didn't meet any. My solution was to accept Annie for who she was and appreciate all her other wonderful qualities.

You need to do what is right for you. Continue to work with your trainer and try to change your girl, if you think that is possible. If she can't change - that isn't your fault and it isn't her fault either. 

Best of luck to you!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Excellent post ^^^^


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

llombardo said:


> Your all over the place here. Explain in detail what happened. Did she run up on the dog and attack? Did she run up to the dog in excitement and the other dog snapped, causing them to fight? Did the leash get away from you or were you doing off leash obedience? Have you had her evaluated? Does she wear a prong? Do you have a trainer?


She ran up to the other dog from ~50 feet away and attacked it.

She was trotting up until about 25 feet (tail down, ears forward, very slinky and a bit low down in the body), then she sprinted up to the other dog and jumped on it, posturing over it and being the bossy one - the other dog turned and snapped at her, they were then snapping at each other. The other dog drove her away, she turned and went back into it to bite the other dog on the flank - she was still trying to pin the other dog down and snap at it when I caught up to her lead and pulled her away. She wanted to continue the fight.

I do not think her intentions were good from the start. She was very determined going up to this dog. When she has gone up to other dogs, she will move very stiffly and overreact if the other dog moves. Tail high up, hackles up, standing on her toes. Eyes bulging out of her head. When a small dog ran up to her 5-6 mos ago al she wanted to do was pin it down and make it stop moving while she investigated it. The other dogs walked away and she flipped out at them leaving.

Sometimes I really think her social skills are just really messed up/never allowed to develop properly. She was in a few different shelters as a young dog, and must have had DOZENS of other dogs rushing gates at her walking by. 

The leash got away from me when I gave her a release command to go greet a person who wanted to pet her. I don't think they want a GSD now, lol.

We have a trainer. She wears a prong on walks (she is STRONG) and an ecollar for obedience. She usually does very well with the ecollar - I do not have her off lead, but will use a long line. With the ecollar she has recently gotten to the point where she can walk by another dog that is ignoring her and ignore it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

WHY does the trainer say she does this? Nerves, environment, lack of training or leadership, combination of preceding causes,......what? I get called in for dogs like this all the time, I let the owners know I feel it's important to identify causation. Then we can fashion answer to problem....whether it be training, management, combination of both, education of owner, handling skills, or just plain eliminating some less than smart things people do.
Also, your dog does not think like a human as you seemed to indicate in OP, most of their actions are based on drives and nurturing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Putting the leash around your wrist is a very good way to keep control of your dog's leash. I am rather petite but I have never lost control of a leash using that method despite having big, strong dogs. It is better that YOUR dog harms YOU, than YOUR dog harm somebody else or their pet.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I have some experience living with dog aggressive dogs. Game bred pits bulls. I didn't have to bother figuring out WHY my dog wanted to kill other dogs. It was just in his genes. So I dealt with dog aggression. 

Buy yourself a basket muzzle and condition her to wear it. It will give you so much peace of mind. Trust me. You'll want that peace of mind. Otherwise YOU will be on edge everytime you see another dog and she will end up being 100 worse. 

I never allowed mine to so much as think about looking at other dogs. It didnt matter if it was 5 feet away. 50 feet away or 500. They looked at another dog they got corrected before they even had the time to make up their mind about if they wanted to turn it into a chew toy or not. Rewarded when the focus was on me instead. Got to the point that another dog showed up and the immediately went to eye contact with me. Not letting them focus on another dog at all worked for me. It's counter intuitive to the common advise of desensitizing but it let me live with the DA. 

Be wary of relying on prongs and ecollars. There will be a day you don't have them and may need to get control of your dog quick.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes I do t think starting with prong collars and e collars is not the way to go as some may use this as a crutch and try to bypass many steps. This is not to say you should never use a prong or E collar but a foundation needs to be put and place before even using these. Redirecting, focusing on you before it comes to the point of where he is mentally gone. I taught my dog the words "no pull"-I started that as a pup so he would not pull me down a big dirt hill as we had to climb to get through a dirt path in the woods. He always enjoyed going slowly down the hill for me I believed this helped. "No pulling" helped with stopping pulling chasing cats or any small critters on a leash. If you feel more secure using a prong collar then all means please do so. I now use a herm sprenger neck tech collar and continue doing so and really like it. I for myself think there is your dog needs to learn how to listen to you and you need to learn how to observe your dog and learn his body language and read his mind. You do need control of your dog in order to do this. In time those subtle signs before he is about to lunge takes time. Having these occurrences do help read all of the body language. . My dog is dog reactive and we do enjoy life I take him to the beach /hiking at parks in the scenarios he is pretty much fully engaged chasing balls swimming and such that dogs passing by on leashes even barking ones are barely noticed or if so a simple leave it will end and fun games continue on. Those scenarios is much easier waiting 2 1/2 hours in a nose works class waiting our turn l. There are lapses of engagement. We have been through much improvements set backs would be mostly in class. But my dog is able to readjust and stop his crap quick. A few weeks we were at herding class he was at a down stay against a fence when a male shelty ran up to him on the other side of the fence he to working sheep and they made eye contact. Max just looked away and I may have been happier then winning the lotto at that moment- well maybe. It is much work but definitely worth it as you will be able to take your dog out and enjoy him.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I also at times using the e collar and fairly new at it but doing very well with it.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> I also at times using the e collar and fairly new at it but doing very well with it.


. It is the timing and the strength of the correction to the dogs behavior and energy and the rewarding of good behavior help the dog think first before he acts.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> She had looked at this dog, but it was ~50 feet away and she wasn't doing anything else


That is where your problem starts! Your dog detected smell of other dog long before he vusualized his image, but you should have seen that dog before your dog spotted him, because you have better point of view as a human, you are higher to the ground level than your dog. In majority of cases the handler can see the reaction trigger object before his dog. And, what should you have done? You should have turned your back to that dog - thus saying with your body language "Ignore!" and involve your dog in tug game leading him away.
Dog reaction has its stages of development. You should not wait until your dog reacts, instead, divert his attention to yourself before he receives any visual image if you can. But, even if your dog had spotted other dog before you, he must have signaled about his intentions before lunging forward ( tiptoeing, pricked ears, etc). When you walk with a young untrained dog - you should keep your eyes on him all the time, including times, for instance, when you speak to your friend. It is very important to watch your dog and be aware of the environment. Blind corners are unavoidable, but, again, you should react to the situation and act before your dog reacts. Dog live by expectations - the sight of another dog should be a promise of a game with you. Many people start feeding their dogs tasty treats only other dog appeared at the horizon, and it works! But not all dogs are that much food driven, though, nothing stops you to try.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> WHY does the trainer say she does this? Nerves, environment, lack of training or leadership, combination of preceding causes,......what? I get called in for dogs like this all the time, I let the owners know I feel it's important to identify causation. Then we can fashion answer to problem....whether it be training, management, combination of both, education of owner, handling skills, or just plain eliminating some less than smart things people do.
> Also, your dog does not think like a human as you seemed to indicate in OP, most of their actions are based on drives and nurturing.


Her trainer thinks it is a combo of genetics (He said it is not uncommon for dog reactivity/aggression in GSDs), negative experience(s) when she was a young dog, and that she is acting out of insecurity.

She has lived with two other dogs - both of which (including a puppy) she needed very slow introduction to. She was in a basket muzzle for 3-4 days around each dog, but then went on to bond very strongly to each. She fusses over the puppy almost as if it were her own, and is constantly "showing him the ropes". 


One thing that makes me think though - She was around 20 other GSDs when I met her. She was 7mos old. She showed dog reactivity the first time we went on a walk when I brought her home - I quietly led her away, went home, and researched it. I started with one trainer, who told me to go to a behaviorist, who was $200 an hour and said my dog would never get better and that I should also never correct her, then my current trainer who uses ecollars. 

With this current trainer, we work on keeping her focus (making her turn her back to the other dog and look at me - or walk by a dog and look at me) and to ignore the other dogs. He wants to start her in his group classes with a basket muzzle. I don't have a problem with this, but it is impossible to reward her with it on (the only reward she takes around other dogs is a squeaky toy or a tug), and will take very high value food but spit it out (so I know she is very stressed/over threshold).
Do we just back up to the point where she will take food?


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> That is where your problem starts! Your dog detected smell of other dog long before he vusualized his image, but you should have seen that dog before your dog spotted him, because you have better point of view as a human, you are higher to the ground level than your dog. In majority of cases the handler can see the reaction trigger object before his dog. And, what should you have done? You should have turned your back to that dog - thus saying with your body language "Ignore!" and involve your dog in tug game leading him away.
> Dog reaction has its stages of development. You should not wait until your dog reacts, instead, divert his attention to yourself before he receives any visual image if you can. But, even if your dog had spotted other dog before you, he must have signaled about his intentions before lunging forward ( tiptoeing, pricked ears, etc). When you walk with a young untrained dog - you should keep your eyes on him all the time, including times, for instance, when you speak to your friend. It is very important to watch your dog and be aware of the environment. Blind corners are unavoidable, but, again, you should react to the situation and act before your dog reacts. Dog live by expectations - the sight of another dog should be a promise of a game with you. Many people start feeding their dogs tasty treats only other dog appeared at the horizon, and it works! But not all dogs are that much food driven, though, nothing stops you to try.


I knew the other dog was there - she had initially looked at it, I asked her to turn away and focus on me and she did = reward. She was then ignoring the other dog while we continued some obedience. 

I am usually watching her like a hawk - like you said, she will hear and smell other dogs long before I see them. She used to react to the mere sound or smell of other dogs, but has vastly improved with that. 

But..someone walked up and wanted to pet her. I released her to go say hi, which I thought she wanted to do (she had her attention on the person) to use it as a nice reward/break but then she looked at the dog again, took off, there went the leash and then the fight. From looking at the other dog to taking off was maybe a second. I new it was happening and she beat my reaction time.

Again, it was all my fault...I'm just glad no one was hurt. I'm not sure why though - she either has no idea what she is doing fighting, used bite inhibition, or who knows. Maybe she was trying to scare the other dog but not hurt it? Whatever the reason, it is unacceptable behavior that I must be more vigilant to manage. Sometimes I wish I could read her mind.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

How was the other owner? Were they okay, or were they upset?

I'm glad the other dog wasn't hurt.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> I released her


Then, my dear, your problem is not a dog reactivity as such, your problem is what others call "A reliable recall". In order to explain required to your dog you need a ball and a long leash. The command "Stop, stay!" is trained with a ball, basically - you apply long leash to stop your dog running after the ball, occasionally tiring its end to the tree. Actually, "Stop!" should work both ways - when your dog runs after the ball, and when she runs back to you with it in her mouth. In this case "Stop" means "Pause", and the word "stop" should not be used in any other cases. Invent your own signal, you can use a whistle.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> How was the other owner? Were they okay, or were they upset?
> 
> I'm glad the other dog wasn't hurt.


They didn't mind, their dog was OK. I was able to exchange info and admit responsibility/offer to pay vet bills as I was pulling my "angry drunk friend who still wants to fight" away lol


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> Then, my dear, your problem is not a dog reactivity as such, your problem is what others call "A reliable recall". In order to explain required to your dog you need a ball and a long leash. The command "Stop, stay!" is trained with a ball, basically - you apply long leash to stop your dog running after the ball, occasionally tiring its end to the tree. Actually, "Stop!" should work both ways - when your dog runs after the ball, and when she runs back to you with it in her mouth. In this case "Stop" means "Pause", and the word "stop" should not be used in any other cases. Invent your own signal, you can use a whistle.


We will work on this, thank you. When she stops while running after the ball...should I reward her with a different ball/tug/etc.? Or the one that I threw?


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

Irie said:


> They didn't mind, their dog was OK. I was able to exchange info and admit responsibility/offer to pay vet bills as I was pulling my "angry drunk friend who still wants to fight" away lol


is that something you have to do? exchange info when both parties are unharmed and separated on good terms?

first time dog owner so trying to learn what's expected as a dog owner


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

Pan_GSD said:


> is that something you have to do? exchange info when both parties are unharmed and separated on good terms?
> 
> first time dog owner so trying to learn what's expected as a dog owner


It is the nice thing to do - but you will quickly learn that almost no one does this. 

The dogs attacked by others that come to our hospital? I would say at least 90% of owners of the attacked dog have to pay out of pocket. I have seen many dogs, usually small, be put down because a large dog ran up and attacked them, the owner of that dog ran off or whatever as the owner rushed their injured dog to us. With the popularity of pit bull type dogs in my area, this is disturbingly common and the injuries are usually SEVERE - so if one party cannot pay thousands to fix the dog...


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I always used the terms interchangeably. That's probably wrong. Not sure it matters.
> 
> My GSD, Annie was dog aggressive. I adopted her from the shelter, when she was 2 years old. No idea what her history was. That doesn't really matter either. She clearly did not like other dogs. I took an approach, which I am sure others would disagree with. At the end of the day, it is what worked for Annie and me.
> 
> ...


This is actually similar to my dog. Ever since he was little he was insecure around other dogs. Then after some incidents with a few aggressive unleashed dogs he developed reactivity based on fear. As OP's dog he would also go towards other dogs if he could, which might sound illogical but I guess that it's his way of trying to make the object of his fear go away.

Later we tried a trainer and learned to use a prong collar, however we found that trainer too aversive so we have quit. After some time trying with no avail, we accepted this reactivity and simply managed it.

Whenever dogs passes by we'd also walk fast paced while encourage him to keep going. Small corrections to make him continue walking might be used. It actually works much better, and forcing him to stay still and endure is actually bad as he'd pent it up and feels lost, while encouraging him to continue walking redirect his energy and it contradicts his natural reaction of wanting to react or reach the other dog.

Also, another helpful thing is to drain his energy before walks. Threadmills or longer walks helps, whenhe's tired or at the end of his walk he is indeed less reactive.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Irie said:


> It is the nice thing to do - but you will quickly learn that almost no one does this.
> 
> The dogs attacked by others that come to our hospital? I would say at least 90% of owners of the attacked dog have to pay out of pocket. I have seen many dogs, usually small, be put down because a large dog ran up and attacked them, the owner of that dog ran off or whatever as the owner rushed their injured dog to us. With the popularity of pit bull type dogs in my area, this is disturbingly common and the injuries are usually SEVERE - so if one party cannot pay thousands to fix the dog...


I have a question, do you usually see the smaller or larger dog start the aggression. I see a lot of people blaming dogs especially pitbull type dogs when dogs get into a fight. However in my personal experience it tends to be the smaller dogs that instigate and either end up in nothing happening, the larger dog getting minor injuries, or the smaller dog getting severe injuries/dying. In my area people seem to think smaller dog aggression is cute because they are so small and 'tough' but then will complain about larger dogs trying to attack their dogs after their smaller dog ran up and was literally attacking the larger dog. (Literally had a 12 year child get bitten and had full out out puncture marks, child was 100% not antagonizing the dog(small breed). She went and alerted the owners who told her "Don't worry, you aren't the first person she's bit." The owners then proceeded to breed and sell puppies from that female. While a pitbull was put down for nipping(no blood). As another example for people's attitudes.)


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

sheep said:


> This is actually similar to my dog. Ever since he was little he was insecure around other dogs. Then after some incidents with a few aggressive unleashed dogs he developed reactivity based on fear. As OP's dog he would also go towards other dogs if he could, which might sound illogical but I guess that it's his way of trying to make the object of his fear go away.
> 
> Whenever dogs passes by we'd also walk fast paced while encourage him to keep going. Small corrections to make him continue walking might be used. It actually works much better, and forcing him to stay still and endure is actually bad as he'd pent it up and feels lost, while encouraging him to continue walking redirect his energy and it contradicts his natural reaction of wanting to react or reach the other dog.
> 
> .


it's not just our big beloved GSDs either. My beagle/whippet mix who was under 30 lbs at best, would be the first to start something with some dogs. It seemed like whoever got the first shot in won. When I adopted her she was running loose in a house full of other dogs so it certainly wasn't an issue with all dogs. 
When on walks with my little mix, people would expect their dog to meet and greet my dog. I allowed the 3 second sniff. I let my little mix-gal get close enough to smell the air near the other dog, count to three, and then moved on. I told people that she was "iffy" with some dogs and they all seemed to accept that. Oddly enough, if I tell people that my big German Shepherd might not get along with their dog, they look at me with a more dubious face...a "how dare you have a dog like that" look. And we usually put it that way since people get defensive if we say, "hey, get your dog under control". :|


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

Kazel said:


> I have a question, do you usually see the smaller or larger dog start the aggression. I see a lot of people blaming dogs especially pitbull type dogs when dogs get into a fight. However in my personal experience it tends to be the smaller dogs that instigate and either end up in nothing happening, the larger dog getting minor injuries, or the smaller dog getting severe injuries/dying. In my area people seem to think smaller dog aggression is cute because they are so small and 'tough' but then will complain about larger dogs trying to attack their dogs after their smaller dog ran up and was literally attacking the larger dog. (Literally had a 12 year child get bitten and had full out out puncture marks, child was 100% not antagonizing the dog(small breed). She went and alerted the owners who told her "Don't worry, you aren't the first person she's bit." The owners then proceeded to breed and sell puppies from that female. While a pitbull was put down for nipping(no blood). As another example for people's attitudes.)


Almost always it is a small dog that is attacked by an off leash/out of control larger dog. For whatever reasons, it is almost always a pit bull. They do exponentially more damage, period. Again and again, same story...(usually small) dog is chillin', big bully type dog runs up and goes ham, and then of course refuses to pay any vet bills. The owner of the attacking dog taking any responsibility is about 5%. The type of damage seen is horrifying, happening within seconds. This "all how you raise them" "no bad dogs, just bad owners" thinking needs to stop. Respect what you own and what it is capable of. This goes to all dogs.

I don't care if a small dog is barking or whatever at another dog. It is still no excuse for another dog, especially a larger one, to be so out of control it is allowed to damage that other dog. If one dog runs up to another and starts attacking it, then gets attacked back...not much you can do there except try to break up the fight. The situation I think of is one dog being off lead/not under owner control running up to an on lead dog. 

But I really hate this idea of "the little dog deserved it" for barking at a larger, scary dog. FFS. They react out of fear, they don't deserve to be killed or maimed over it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Irie said:


> Almost always it is a small dog that is attacked by an off leash/out of control larger dog. For whatever reasons, it is almost always a pit bull. They do exponentially more damage, period. Again and again, same story...(usually small) dog is chillin', big bully type dog runs up and goes ham, and then of course refuses to pay any vet bills. The owner of the attacking dog taking any responsibility is about 5%. The type of damage seen is horrifying, happening within seconds. This "all how you raise them" "no bad dogs, just bad owners" thinking needs to stop. Respect what you own and what it is capable of. This goes to all dogs.
> 
> I don't care if a small dog is barking or whatever at another dog. It is still no excuse for another dog, especially a larger one, to be so out of control it is allowed to damage that other dog. If one dog runs up to another and starts attacking it, then gets attacked back...not much you can do there except try to break up the fight. The situation I think of is one dog being off lead/not under owner control running up to an on lead dog.
> 
> But I really hate this idea of "the little dog deserved it" for barking at a larger, scary dog. FFS. They react out of fear, they don't deserve to be killed or maimed over it.


It isn't just small dogs. My eldest bitch was attacked three times by Pit Bulls and my youngest bitch once. All other breeds combined, zero attacks. What makes those numbers even worse is that I am well aware of the dangers of Pit Bulls and do my best to maintain a Pit Bull free zone around me and my dogs and no amount of not going here, not going there, stop going just about everywhere is ever good enough to protect my dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmmm ... interesting thread with an actual interactive member ... I might add. 

So ... "Leash Reactive" or "Dog Aggressive??" By and large I tend to agree with " Stevenzachsmom" either may ... it does not matter, but for me, either is an "issue" that "I won't have." Why is not important. As long as a given dog has not been given the "opportunity" to do harm to another dog, then most likely ... they can be said to fall into the "Leash Reactivity" camp???

Unfortunately here ... the dog was given the opportunity (not by intent of course) to do harm to another dog and he did! So going forward ... it would be safe to assume that "this" dog is indeed "Dog Aggressive." 

Sooo ... now you know! Still ... it is not the end of the world here, yes it's gonna take more effort ... because now your dog understands that " if I act like a fool" ... I can make this dog from ... X distance ... "go away!!"

But really the OP made only two basic "mistakes." No Recall and No Plan B for her off leash dog. I do luv to throw hard numbers out there. But from first hand experiance ... I can't say how long it takes to train a reliable recall?? To my of thinking "Recall" takes to much "thinking" on the dogs part??? For the dog it means ... I have stop doing what I am doing ... turn around and go back to my owner??? 

Most likely for a "properly trained" GSD ... no big deal ... but you know ... I'm a "Boxer and Pit Derivative" Guy" so I worked with short attention span doggies. Stay and Down ... does not take a lot of "processing." And those commands can be "practiced" anywhere and anytime. Dogs default to known trained behaviours quite easily. 

But there was ... no plan B here, the dog did not recall. And was thus free to make his own (poor) choices ... "Crap Happens" but now you known. And the Food vs Toys thing?? Well I don't use either myself but from what I understand, from those who do ... it's not about "deciding what "you" prefer to use???" It's about figuring out what "motivates" your dog. If your dog prefers "toys" over "treats" then go with toys.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Kazel said:


> I have a question, do you usually see the smaller or larger dog start the aggression. I see a lot of people blaming dogs especially pitbull type dogs when dogs get into a fight. However in my personal experience it tends to be the smaller dogs that instigate and either end up in nothing happening, the larger dog getting minor injuries, or the smaller dog getting severe injuries/dying. In my area people seem to think smaller dog aggression is cute because they are so small and 'tough' but then will complain about larger dogs trying to attack their dogs after their smaller dog ran up and was literally attacking the larger dog. (Literally had a 12 year child get bitten and had full out out puncture marks, child was 100% not antagonizing the dog(small breed). She went and alerted the owners who told her "Don't worry, you aren't the first person she's bit." The owners then proceeded to breed and sell puppies from that female. While a pitbull was put down for nipping(no blood). As another example for people's attitudes.)


The roblem with bully breed attacks is they can lead to maiming and/or death. Small breeds- not so much.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> While a pitbull was put down for nipping(no blood).


I have not seen this at all. Pits have killed multiple pets on multiple occasions and some have long histories of human bites and the worst that happens to the Pit owners are possibly a small fine for no license and/ or no rabies shot, if applicable and they get to keep their Pit Bulls.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Irie said:


> Almost always it is a small dog that is attacked by an off leash/out of control larger dog. For whatever reasons, it is almost always a pit bull. They do exponentially more damage, period. Again and again, same story...(usually small) dog is chillin', big bully type dog runs up and goes ham, and then of course refuses to pay any vet bills. The owner of the attacking dog taking any responsibility is about 5%. The type of damage seen is horrifying, happening within seconds. This "all how you raise them" "no bad dogs, just bad owners" thinking needs to stop. Respect what you own and what it is capable of. This goes to all dogs.
> 
> I don't care if a small dog is barking or whatever at another dog. It is still no excuse for another dog, especially a larger one, to be so out of control it is allowed to damage that other dog. If one dog runs up to another and starts attacking it, then gets attacked back...not much you can do there except try to break up the fight. The situation I think of is one dog being off lead/not under owner control running up to an on lead dog.
> 
> But I really hate this idea of "the little dog deserved it" for barking at a larger, scary dog. FFS. They react out of fear, they don't deserve to be killed or maimed over it.


I am by no means saying the saying the little dog deserved it at all but not all react out of fear. I was just asking because in my area the smaller dogs tend to have little to no training and are very aggressive towards other dogs. Not to say there aren't a lot of larger breed dogs without any training that are also dog aggressive but it is running rampant with increase in cute little designer dogs. 

In *my area* it is usually larger dog chilling and smaller dog comes and attacks it. Then larger dog is blamed for the fight. I was merely asking what other peoples experiences were. Of course it would be better if the larger dog was not reactive and ignored the smaller dog but I think it should be the dog instigating(I don't count barking as instigating) that is at fault regardless of size. My friend has a dog that looks a lot like a 'pit' but is mainly basset/boxer and is very submissive. She was approached by two beagles that started attacking her, she rolled over tail tucked between her legs and got a fair amount of puncture while the beagles had 0 injuries as she didn't react. However my friends dog was blamed for the fight because she looked like a pit. Even though her dog did not react in any sort of aggressive way at all. I have many example of 'pits' being blamed for attacks simply because of how they look.

I have been around a lot of dogs and we have a lot of crappy owners that just let their dogs roam around wherever they want. We have had no issues with any of the bully breeds it is generally huskies and smaller dogs that we have troubles with. 

I just have trouble with the outlook on large breeds vs. small breeds in that things that people let their small dogs get away with is a death sentence for larger dogs. Or just do nothing in terms of training and treat them like their children. That happens in larger dogs too but I don't see people carrying their pit with them into stores and such with that person not even owning a leash. I've just had more trouble with smaller breeds than larger breeds personally. It's merely that larger breeds are generally capable of doing more damage. (I also don't trust the news on dog attack reports. ie: Jack Russel killed a baby and it was reported at as a fatal pit attack) Plus most dog bites are never reported. 


On topic of the post though I do think that there is a difference in reactivity and aggression depending on how your are defining the word. I used to define reactive as responding to a dog that attacked, while an aggressive dog would provoke a fight. However now I see that a lot of people define it much differently with a reactive dog lunging/barking ect. when it sees other dogs. Both are reasonable interpretations of reactivity but in my mind I was labeling it differently. For example with reactivity the dog would lunge/bark but would not actually fight with the other dog and would play/ignore once actually introduced while a reactive aggressive dog would react and fight when introduced and a just plain aggressive dog would ignore until closer/introduced and then attack. I'm not sure if I'm actually managing to get anything across that I'm saying. Keep in mind I haven't been around any 'professional' trainers or dogs trained by anything other than 'ordinary' people.




MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have not seen this at all. Pits have killed multiple pets on multiple occasions and some have long histories of human bites and the worst that happens to the Pit owners are possibly a small fine for no license and/ or no rabies shot, if applicable and they get to keep their Pit Bulls.


Yeah it really depends on the area you are in and the people you actually are around. Basically though little dog has little to no chance of being reported even for injuries that should probably get hospital care while big dogs get to go into quarantine and then euthanized for smaller indiscretions. Of course there are lots of big dog bites that nothing ever happens with and it depends on if it was friends/family and ect. on who got bit if it gets reported at all.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm ... interesting thread with an actual interactive member ... I might add.
> 
> So ... "Leash Reactive" or "Dog Aggressive??" By and large I tend to agree with " Stevenzachsmom" either may ... it does not matter, but for me, either is an "issue" that "I won't have." Why is not important. As long as a given dog has not been given the "opportunity" to do harm to another dog, then most likely ... they can be said to fall into the "Leash Reactivity" camp???
> 
> ...


Yup.

I totally messed up there. I'm am very thankful that neither dog or any interfering person had to pay for it. I will never let my guard down with her again. If she will be near other dogs, she wears her basket muzzle. I went back to foundations with her at home - she is learning the art of "patience" (not her thing), and "other dogs are allowed to exist" (a concept she is grasping lol)

I do admit, I have been very positive and "soft" with this dog. I have, and will continue to, learn a lot from her. It is up to me to manage her appropriately.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have not seen this at all. Pits have killed multiple pets on multiple occasions and some have long histories of human bites and the worst that happens to the Pit owners are possibly a small fine for no license and/ or no rabies shot, if applicable and they get to keep their Pit Bulls.


Exactly. My ex-roomates dog has killed two other dogs, and he de-gloved a third (don't google that). The dog is now an "emotional support animal" so everyone is afraid to acknowledge him. Trust me, we had long discussions about how he managed the dog before any of this happened, but you can lead a horse to water...

AC came by. The dog was off lead, too. They gave him a verbal warning, and a citation to license. Nothing else.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

Kazel said:


> I am by no means saying the saying the little dog deserved it at all but not all react out of fear. I was just asking because in my area the smaller dogs tend to have little to no training and are very aggressive towards other dogs. Not to say there aren't a lot of larger breed dogs without any training that are also dog aggressive but it is running rampant with increase in cute little designer dogs.
> 
> In *my area* it is usually larger dog chilling and smaller dog comes and attacks it. Then larger dog is blamed for the fight. I was merely asking what other peoples experiences were. Of course it would be better if the larger dog was not reactive and ignored the smaller dog but I think it should be the dog instigating(I don't count barking as instigating) that is at fault regardless of size. My friend has a dog that looks a lot like a 'pit' but is mainly basset/boxer and is very submissive. She was approached by two beagles that started attacking her, she rolled over tail tucked between her legs and got a fair amount of puncture while the beagles had 0 injuries as she didn't react. However my friends dog was blamed for the fight because she looked like a pit. Even though her dog did not react in any sort of aggressive way at all. I have many example of 'pits' being blamed for attacks simply because of how they look.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input, and story. I will keep them in mind. As an FYI, I do not inherently dislike pit bull type dogs. I have handled some dead game dogs; I'm talking gun shot wounds, and still wanting to fight.

I live in an area where pit bull type dogs are just about "untouchable". You cannot say anything negative about them, or a total war starts. Working with dogs every day? This times 1000. If they are aggressive, it is always the owners fault. If any other dog breed is aggressive? !^[email protected]&$^&** GSD (OMG most vet med people hate GSDs), %[email protected]#%#$&*#$ chow, %@[email protected]#$ chihuahua, etc. I get really sick of that...many people in my field make snap judgements of a dog, and then handle it roughly out of their own fear....it drives me crazy. They excuse their own half-hearted skills and blame it on the dog. My work is quick to troubleshoot in best interest of the patient (sedation, counter conditioning for the future, etc) but you can only do so much sometimes. It is complicated. We deal with terrified dogs with whom we must do unpleasant procedures. Of course they don't like us! We try to make it as positive as possible, but for me...nothing you say or do can make my blood draw or invasive medical procedure better. I am all aboard for sedation or counter-conditioning lol

Anyway...I have done a lot of research about my dogs behavior. I am not getting a lot of clear cut answers, honestly. Some of the better ones are on this forum though! We have made progress, but still have plenty of work to do.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Irie said:


> Exactly. My ex-roomates dog has killed two other dogs, and he de-gloved a third (don't google that). The dog is now an "emotional support animal" so everyone is afraid to acknowledge him. Trust me, we had long discussions about how he managed the dog before any of this happened, but you can lead a horse to water...
> 
> AC came by. The dog was off lead, too. They gave him a verbal warning, and a citation to license. Nothing else.


I know about degloving. I have first hand out of my wallet experience with that when a Pit trapped two kittens and the feral momma came to their defense. They all lived, the momma lost body parts, and things like degloving just can't be fixed.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I know about degloving. I have first hand out of my wallet experience with that when a Pit trapped two kittens and the feral momma came to their defense. They all lived, the momma lost body parts, and things like degloving just can't be fixed.


Degloving injuries take a very long time to heal, and are painful. The costs add up as well to properly care for the wound site. We have had cases (veterinary) where amputation of the limb was cheaper and less traumatic. No need to guess about end result function when the limb is just gone and done with. Sounds terrible, but we will usually visit amputation as an option in degloving cases for those reasons.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Irie said:


> Degloving injuries take a very long time to heal, and are painful. The costs add up as well to properly care for the wound site. We have had cases (veterinary) where amputation of the limb was cheaper and less traumatic. No need to guess about end result function when the limb is just gone and done with. Sounds terrible, but we will usually visit amputation as an option in degloving cases for those reasons.


Well, sadly, part of the limb was ultimately lost but not the entire degloved area.


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