# Litter A



## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Just wanted to share the adorableness


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

How can you not like that! Puppies get me everytime...


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

I’m incredibly interested to see their coloring as they grow. Dad is a black, mom is a white. I’ve done so much research, and it seems to be a crap shoot. Both parents fully health cleared with great hip ratings, and both tested negative for DM gene, so I’m happy to sit back and watch them grow.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Salty dog said:


> I’m incredibly interested to see their coloring as they grow. Dad is a black, mom is a white.


Interesting color pattern on them now. What was your goal with this pairing? Dam must have blk/tan in her background.


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

I have been interested in breeding since I got my first Shepherd at 13. I never followed through because ethical breeding took way more time and care and research then I had time for, or money for when it came to all the health and temperament testing needed to ensure the best possible results. I now have both time and money available, so this pairing was solely centered on whether this is something I want to do, while maintaining health and temperament of the breed. I’ve never stopped researching. My white Shepherd was one of two in a 12 litter pairing, and I didn’t chose her, she was chosen by the breeder, and confirmed by my breeding mentor. He also was integral in helping chose the stud, and coloring wasn’t sought out, the best stud temperament and health wise in a 1,000 miles radius happened to be black. My mentor breeds BM’s, so his stock wasn’t a fit from the word go. Long story short, health, temperament, drive, and workability is what I wanted to achieve, while not having to invest in a full breeding pair until I know for sure if this is something I want to continue. The hardest weeks are ahead of me, the easy part behind. If I choose to continue, I will invest in a breeding pair that strengthens the breed without the coloring of this breeding. This pairing has great lines, and both are titled and working, but aesthetically I wouldn’t have gone with the coloring. Just a personal preference as I prefer typical Shepherd looks, but I couldn’t want for better heath or temperament in the pair otherwise.


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

They are one week today, so I will probably spam this post with updated pictures. There are 4 females, 2 males, and their coloring changes on a daily basis. I’m seeing a lot of sable pattering coming through in two of them, and some typical black and than in others, and some have stuck to black with white markings.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Salty dog said:


> My mentor breeds BM’s, so his stock wasn’t a fit from the word go. Long story short, health, temperament, drive, and workability is what I wanted to achieve, while not having to invest in a full breeding pair until I know for sure if this is something I want to continue. The hardest weeks are ahead of me, the easy part behind. If I choose to continue, I will invest in a breeding pair that strengthens the breed without the coloring of this breeding. This pairing has great lines, and both are titled and working, but aesthetically I wouldn’t have gone with the coloring. Just a personal preference as I prefer typical Shepherd looks, but I couldn’t want for better heath or temperament in the pair otherwise.


What? Are you saying that you chose to breed a litter that did not strengthen the breed in colors that weren't to your liking? I am confused. What was your goal with this litter? Have you read, and understand, the breed's written standard? Am I correct in understanding that your mentor breeds Malinois? For what purpose?


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Sorry, I’m not sure what I’ve done wrong here. Was the coloring my personal preference? It wasn’t. Did they both pass all health testing, temperament testing, drive, and are both titled workings dogs? Yes, all the above. Are differing colors culled from breeding programs? Maybe in some breeding programs, but coloring won’t stop the prodigy from competing in anything other than showing for breed coloring. In another thread I stated that the puppies, with the exception of one going to the stud owner, are being placed locally with family members. All will be spayed/neutered at the appropriate age, and if I choose that breeding is a good fit for me personally, I will invest in a breeding pair that not only passes the testing this breeding did, but will also satisfy my aesthetics and be more in line with breed standard coloring. I may be missing the mark here, but full genetic testing and temperament testing was my main goal, coloring didn’t play a part. I’m not trying to breed two white Shepherds to continuously try to pump out white Shepherds. I’m not trying to breed black Shepherds. I bred based on what would make the best possible outcome without coloring being a reason not to. I’m not attempting to breed designer dogs, and I’m not trying to make any money. I’ve certainly done a crap job is money was my goal, the breeding alone cost more than we are giving the puppies to family for, which is them each paying the cost of vet bills for their puppy only, directly to the vet. I will be severely in the negative just with the dam alone. Everyone has to start somewhere and I think I will always have more to learn, but I could have started as a naive kid and put out litter after litter with no thought to health or temperament and riddled the area with typical coloring, but badly breed. Two in one hand, one in the other.
Yes, he breeds Malinois, and he breeds working lines dogs that work in real life. I will ask his permission to post his kennel name, or some of his dogs pedigrees, lineage, and where they are placed. I don’t feel it’s my place to give that information out without permission.
Edited to add: He has been an active member of this group on and off for a long number of years, and was the one that recommended this group. He may chime in himself. He did also warn me that not all is cupcakes and rainbows here.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

To be honest, people will _always_ find something to pick at on this forum. That’s what happens when people are extremely passionate about a subject and want what’s best for the dogs. I think you’ve done a good job for this litter. You’ve health tested the parents, you didn’t even use your own male with no thought, the dogs are titled. Sure, one is white, which in a perfect world, is frowned upon. But you’ve already worked way harder than most people that come on this forum have when they want to breed their dog. Keep moving forward, and as you said, if you decide to keep breeding, you can find a dog that fits better in the standard for color next time. I don’t think breeding a health tested/titled white dog is the end of the world.

Do you have a pedigree for the parents we can look at?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

No good dog is a bad color. Lots of really reputable breeders turn up the odd off colors. 
Sounds to me like you did a good job matching, you learned a few things.
If you want to continue breeding you may be better served to not get a breeding pair. Since you have a good female maybe look at a male that you can raise, train and potentially stud out.
Breeding pairs limit your options.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

There are plenty of White German Shepherds out there that fit the breed standard and are health tested. I just would have done a white to white breeding, thats all. UKC accepts that color for conformation, AKC only will allow in performance. I'm just not a fan of a lot of white on a German Shepherd, that isnt completely white. We once lost first place in an obedience trial to a very nice white German Shepherd. If your bitch is that nice, look for a white male to complement her for her next breeding. I only keep females for breeding, so as not to lock myself into just breeding a certain pair.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What are the pedigrees of these dogs?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I have yet to do this myself, but I recently heard tell of beginning clicker training when a dam goes to nurse. No idea as to the validity but I do intend try that here. Also, provided your dam isn't sound sensitive, you might consider conditioning litter to a little _snap crackle pop_ just before nursing as well. Looks like maybe you have them down the basement? dry fire c02 is better than nothing. 

don't let the haters scare you off. some of us love puppy spam


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Salty dog said:


> Sorry, I’m not sure what I’ve done wrong here. Was the coloring my personal preference? It wasn’t. Did they both pass all health testing, temperament testing, drive, and are both titled workings dogs? Yes, all the above. Are differing colors culled from breeding programs? Maybe in some breeding programs, but coloring won’t stop the prodigy from competing in anything other than showing for breed coloring. In another thread I stated that the puppies, with the exception of one going to the stud owner, are being placed locally with family members. All will be spayed/neutered at the appropriate age, and if I choose that breeding is a good fit for me personally, I will invest in a breeding pair that not only passes the testing this breeding did, but will also satisfy my aesthetics and be more in line with breed standard coloring. I may be missing the mark here, but full genetic testing and temperament testing was my main goal, coloring didn’t play a part. I’m not trying to breed two white Shepherds to continuously try to pump out white Shepherds. I’m not trying to breed black Shepherds. I bred based on what would make the best possible outcome without coloring being a reason not to. I’m not attempting to breed designer dogs, and I’m not trying to make any money. I’ve certainly done a crap job is money was my goal, the breeding alone cost more than we are giving the puppies to family for, which is them each paying the cost of vet bills for their puppy only, directly to the vet. I will be severely in the negative just with the dam alone. Everyone has to start somewhere and I think I will always have more to learn, but I could have started as a naive kid and put out litter after litter with no thought to health or temperament and riddled the area with typical coloring, but badly breed. Two in one hand, one in the other.
> Yes, he breeds Malinois, and he breeds working lines dogs that work in real life. I will ask his permission to post his kennel name, or some of his dogs pedigrees, lineage, and where they are placed. I don’t feel it’s my place to give that information out without permission.
> Edited to add: He has been an active member of this group on and off for a long number of years, and was the one that recommended this group. He may chime in himself. He did also warn me that not all is cupcakes and rainbows here.


You missed the whole point, nobody gives a hoot about color, especially me. So, am I to understand that you bred two titled, actively working dogs together to produce puppies that will be placed in pet homes?

You did not answer my question regarding if you ever read the written breed standard. Am I to assume that means no, you haven't?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You’re story confuses me. I don’t care if you want to be a breeder or not. It just sounds like you produced substandard dogs on purpose. You say the pair is health tested and titled, but you sound disappointed. Why the spay and neuter? I will say if you’re going to breed dogs, you just produce dogs you will be proud of, always. I will tell you to make a good breeder, you need good females. The male in that breeding pair is a waste of money. You can find the male you think complements your girl best. You don’t need to personally own it. If you’re mentor breeds as well, why not help them out with a litter to see if it’s something you want to do?


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

I will upload and post both pedigrees. I’m not disappointed with the breeding, or the dam or sire. I wasn’t 100% thrilled with the coloring, but I wasn’t 100% thrilled when I learned my first born child was a boy when I really wanted a girl. But it didn’t change the fact that I loved him, and I couldn’t be happier with the man he’s turned into, and I wouldn’t go back and change him to a girl given the chance. Same with this litter. Maybe I am too emotional from lack of sleep. I just wanted to share some cute puppiness, and answered a good question that was posed about what my aim was for this litter.
Yes, I have read an exhausting amount of research spanning a solid 20+ years on German shepherds and their standards. 20+ years ago a sable Shepherd would have been odd to see in public, and now I see more sables than any other color. Heck, within the last 5 years I’ve seen an explosion of black shepherds when they were more rare 6 years ago. So what is your question regarding my knowledge or research on the standards for this breed? I’m well aware what the standards are for coat colors, lengths, patterns. I’m also aware of standards having nothing to do with their coats. I’m also aware of the health issues the breed is at risk for. I’m also aware of poorly bred shepherds and the massive amounts dropped at shelters, or even well bred Shepherd that went to owners who couldn’t handle it in the long run and are too embarrassed to admit it to their breeders.
They are not going to pet homes. My family is all very active in the dog community, and aren’t novice owners expecting a pet to just happily be stuck inside 24/7 waiting patiently for their owner to return home and then lay around watching their owner watch TV and then go to bed. My family has owned working dogs in one capacity or another for as far back as I can remember. What they haven’t done, or haven’t wanted to do, is breed German shepherds, so why would I not have them spayed/neutered and stop any chance of a random getting ahold of a bitch in heat, or getting out and impregnating half the neighborhood. Accidents happen. I’ve lurked enough to know that much, and look at the comments on those posts. If you didn’t plan to breed them, why keep them intact? If you couldn’t keep them contained when in heat, why didn’t you spay them. If that one second your young child accidentally left the door open, why didn’t you have a better trained dog that wouldn’t wander off, or why weren’t safety measures in place to make sure your 10 year old is perfectly trained to never make the mistake in leaving the door open to begin with. If I missed any other questions, my apologies. I do have one of my own though.
When can enjoying puppy cuteness just be enjoying puppy cuteness without the 5th degree? Only when it’s a long time member that breeds? Sigh


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Actually, one more question. What is substandard about two health tested, temperament tested, and titled dogs ever considered a substandard pairing just based on coat color? With the obvious exception of show dogs?


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

They are in my bedroom, in a 4ftx4ft exercise pen. The puppy rail is a sanded 4x4, and they are on hardwood floors, with a nonslip whelping mat to protect the flooring, and 3 layers of tightly fitted sheets on top of the whelping mat. I took the pictures after birth before everything was secured down tightly because I knew they would need frequent changing. After all birthing was done, the permanent tightly fitted bedding was placed, and that is changed daily, or more often if needed. The rug is actually my huge bathroom rug that momma refuses to be away from. She constantly drug it in her whelping area every time I drug it out, and it wasn’t worth it when the nesting stage hit, and she won’t nurse now without laying on it, so the bottom lining was removed for safety, and a second one purchased so one can be washed while she nurses on the other. Just something I noticed I didn’t address. And yes, I have much larger exercise pens for different areas of the house and yard to accommodate a growing litter when we get to that point, but for now, mom and pups fit fine in the 4x4 pen comfortably.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You really have no clue that the written breed standard has a section devoted to the genetics of breed specific behavioral traits?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Salty dog I want more puppy cuteness.


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

I’m not sure what you are missing in my replies. Yes, I’m well aware of genetics, and how it can and does affect behaviors, and what is considered acceptable or sought after in order to bred a dam or sire, and what each parents genetic markings (for behavior as well as health, color, etc) predict for a breeding. I’m aware that a freak of nature can also occur that can’t be planned on no matter how much gentetics have been thoughtfully planned out and mapped, and how it can affect one puppy out of an otherwise exemplary litter. Is this the warm welcome everyone gets here, or is this just exclusive to me?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Maybe it has something to do with your presentation?


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

My apologies, I wasn’t aware my presentation was going to be questioned and judged when I shared puppy pictures. I wasn’t aware there was a standard presentation guideline followed in this forum. I’ll go back to my local group where my knowledge and presentation isn’t hammered on when I post cute puppy pictures. Thanks for the heads up on that, I almost blew it.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Salty dog said:


> Actually, one more question. What is substandard about two health tested, temperament tested, and titled dogs ever considered a substandard pairing just based on coat color? With the obvious exception of show dogs?


Who said they were substandard based on color?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nobody is complaining about the pictures, every one here loves puppies.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Salty dog said:


> My apologies, I wasn’t aware my presentation was going to be questioned and judged when I shared puppy pictures. I wasn’t aware there was a standard presentation guideline followed in this forum. I’ll go back to my local group where my knowledge and presentation isn’t hammered on when I post cute puppy pictures. Thanks for the heads up on that, I almost blew it.


I want puppy spam!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Salty dog said:


> My apologies, I wasn’t aware my presentation was going to be questioned and judged when I shared puppy pictures. I wasn’t aware there was a standard presentation guideline followed in this forum. I’ll go back to my local group where my knowledge and presentation isn’t hammered on when I post cute puppy pictures. Thanks for the heads up on that, I almost blew it.


You are just fine. Post away. Post puppy photos


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Who said they were substandard based on color?


You said it sounded like I produced a substandard litter. Or that’s how I read it. And I mentioned coloring because I’ve never seen a dog disqualified for competing based on coat color but have heard they can be disqualified for showing, and honestly, I’m not well versed with that venue anyway, so I could be wrong about that. But what I was trying to say that is apparently lacking in its delivery, is that I love the pairing as far as health, temperament, drive, and workability with both the dam which I own, and the sire which I do not own, but I’m not in love with the coloring as a personal preference. I’m not saying they are substandard, I’m saying that had my resources been endless, I would have likely enlarged my radius and bred her to a color other than black. But I’ve also said I’m also loving seeing the daily changes in their coats, and I can now sit back and just enjoy that part of it. I can’t change coat colors now, and I love everything else about the pairing. I would always put health, temperament, i now sound like a broken record, over coat color any and every day. If I had just cared about coat color, I wouldn’t be posting these pictures at all, because there would be no litter.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You keep missing the point. We are asking how can you breed for temperament when you have never read the breed standard? You can't if you don't know what you don't know.


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Dead horse, meet boot. Why are you assuming I’ve never read the breed standard? Because I chose a wealth of benefits over the color of the coat?


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

I’m setting up a mini amateur photo session up now. The photographer will be by this evening to get the real ones, so a spam is coming for sure! The professional ones will take a few days for editing and whatnot before they make their way to me, but I’ll spam my not so professional ones in the next hour or so. I’m expecting background changes as needed, the little tykes are expelling waste on their own now. Fun times!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Salty dog said:


> Dead horse, meet boot. Why are you assuming I’ve never read the breed standard? Because I chose a wealth of benefits over the color of the coat?


What does the color of the coat have to do with temperament?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Salty dog said:


> Did they both pass all health testing, temperament testing, drive, and are both titled workings dogs? Yes, all the above.


Seems like you answered all the questions. I'm unclear why anyone is having issues with this. Breeders get recommended on here that do far less. You had provided for the pups before they were even born which is awesome and since they will be family you will get good feedback on what your girl has produced.
So can we have more pics of puppy feet?


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Where in my post did I ever say that neither the dam or sire didn’t both have temperament testing done? I’ve said it repeatedly. They both also come from a line of established temperaments themselves, with no red flags in either dam/sire, or prodigy from the sire. Maybe you can spell out, very slowly, what I’m missing here, because apparently my thick head isn’t catching what you’re pitching. Or maybe it’s your delivery that’s causing confusion. Just to reiterate, I’m aware their is genetic dispositions regarding temperament, and there is secondary temperament testing that test in real life scenarios to judge the temperament of the dog. Which is it that you seem to think I lack knowledge in?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Salty dog said:


> You said it sounded like I produced a substandard litter. Or that’s how I read it. And I mentioned coloring because I’ve never seen a dog disqualified for competing based on coat color but have heard they can be disqualified for showing, and honestly, I’m not well versed with that venue anyway, so I could be wrong about that. But what I was trying to say that is apparently lacking in its delivery, is that I love the pairing as far as health, temperament, drive, and workability with both the dam which I own, and the sire which I do not own, but I’m not in love with the coloring as a personal preference. I’m not saying they are substandard, I’m saying that had my resources been endless, I would have likely enlarged my radius and bred her to a color other than black. But I’ve also said I’m also loving seeing the daily changes in their coats, and I can now sit back and just enjoy that part of it. I can’t change coat colors now, and I love everything else about the pairing. I would always put health, temperament, i now sound like a broken record, over coat color any and every day. If I had just cared about coat color, I wouldn’t be posting these pictures at all, because there would be no litter.


It sounded like you weren't satisfied in the dogs you are breeding. If the dog is breed worthy, why do you feel the need to get a replacement? I do care about color, I care about the look of the dog. Those things are just so low on my list, they have never been apart of the decision making process. i don't have anything against white dogs, or any other dogs for that matter. I'm curious about the dogs used in this breeding and why. I'm interested in the lines used, the characteristics of the dogs, what their titles are, how they are to live with, and how you expect them to turn out. As an example, the sire of my newest puppy was described as an extremely hard dog, not a points dog.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> I have been interested in breeding since I got my first Shepherd at 13. I never followed through because ethical breeding took way more time and care and research then I had time for, or money for when it came to all the health and temperament testing needed to ensure the best possible results. I now have both time and money available, so this pairing was solely centered on whether this is something I want to do, while maintaining health and temperament of the breed. I’ve never stopped researching. My white Shepherd was one of two in a 12 litter pairing, and I didn’t chose her, she was chosen by the breeder, and confirmed by my breeding mentor. He also was integral in helping chose the stud, and coloring wasn’t sought out, the best stud temperament and health wise in a 1,000 miles radius happened to be black. My mentor breeds BM’s, so his stock wasn’t a fit from the word go. Long story short, health, temperament, drive, and workability is what I wanted to achieve, while not having to invest in a full breeding pair until I know for sure if this is something I want to continue. The hardest weeks are ahead of me, the easy part behind. If I choose to continue, I will invest in a breeding pair that strengthens the breed without the coloring of this breeding. This pairing has great lines, and both are titled and working, but aesthetically I wouldn’t have gone with the coloring. Just a personal preference as I prefer typical Shepherd looks, but I couldn’t want for better heath or temperament in the pair otherwise.


What are your dogs titled in? Or do you mean other dogs in pedigree of litter are titled?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> What are your dogs titled in? Or do you mean other dogs in pedigree of litter are titled?


CGC, CGCU etc are not titles just to give an example. Also when you say working ability what are you referring too in regards to the litter?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Salty dog said:


> Where in my post did I ever say that neither the dam or sire didn’t both have temperament testing done? I’ve said it repeatedly. They both also come from a line of established temperaments themselves, with no red flags in either dam/sire, or prodigy from the sire. Maybe you can spell out, very slowly, what I’m missing here, because apparently my thick head isn’t catching what you’re pitching. Or maybe it’s your delivery that’s causing confusion. Just to reiterate, I’m aware their is genetic dispositions regarding temperament, and there is secondary temperament testing that test in real life scenarios to judge the temperament of the dog. Which is it that you seem to think I lack knowledge in?


There are genetic dispositions _*regarding breeds.*_ You can't judge the temperament of a Beagle, a Cairn Terrier or any other breed without knowing what their specific breed standards call for. Have you read the breed standard? If you never read the breed standard, then how can you breed for correct temperament? Simple questions. These are the questions your buyers should be asking you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Salty dog said:


> I have been interested in breeding since I got my first Shepherd at 13. I never followed through because ethical breeding took way more time and care and research then I had time for, or money for when it came to all the health and temperament testing needed to ensure the best possible results. I now have both time and money available, so this pairing was solely centered on whether this is something I want to do, while maintaining health and temperament of the breed. I’ve never stopped researching. My white Shepherd was one of two in a 12 litter pairing, and I didn’t chose her, she was chosen by the breeder, and confirmed by my breeding mentor. He also was integral in helping chose the stud, and coloring wasn’t sought out, the best stud temperament and health wise in a 1,000 miles radius happened to be black. My mentor breeds BM’s, so his stock wasn’t a fit from the word go. Long story short, health, temperament, drive, and workability is what I wanted to achieve, while not having to invest in a full breeding pair until I know for sure if this is something I want to continue. *The hardest weeks are ahead of me, the easy part behind. If I choose to continue, I will invest in a breeding pair that strengthens the breed without the coloring of this breeding. *This pairing has great lines, and both are titled and working, but aesthetically I wouldn’t have gone with the coloring. Just a personal preference as I prefer typical Shepherd looks, but I couldn’t want for better heath or temperament in the pair otherwise.


Why would you invest in a breeding pair? Why would you not continue to find a stud that is the best choice for what you want to produce?


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

welp, I think it’s pointless to respond at this point, just stuck on a merry go round of answering questions and still not being heard, and I feel like it’s picking just to pick at this point. I’ll bow out. Thanks for all the opinions, and those who get what I’m saying and are being supportive and are listening, not listening without hearing just so they can reply. I will puppy spam pictures, but beyond that, I’ll go back to my lurking corner with the other lurkers.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@Salty dog I’m very confused, so I won’t comment except to say this forum has all levels of experience and beliefs. The puppies are very cute. I am a little concerned that people are warning others that we are not necessarily warm and welcoming. We are. If someone comes here wanting to talk about training, behavior, health, nutrition, toys, bedding, there doesn’t seem to be much controversy. If people ask breeding questions, it seems to bring out some hypersensitivity. What I take from reading the posts in this thread is that people are curious about how this breeding pair was chosen and why. That is a common question and it’s one buyers will ask. Many of us look for breeders who have titled their breeding dogs, who breed for temperament, health and breed standards, so questions about that are pretty generic. No one is criticizing the OP, they are curious and want to know more. No one expects a first time breeder to be fully experienced yet. You will learn a lot as you continue. I hope you will stick around because this is the only full German Shepherd site and possibly the best dog information forum on the Internet.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

@Salty dog those pups are ADORABLE and you're doing a great job with the litter as far as I'm concerned you're doing everything right for the pups, the breeding, and your girl. Keep the puppy spam coming


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Sire is a working SAR dog, and assists with search and rescue of missing people. His line is titled in protection, and littermates are working in narc detection. Dam has titles in basics. Herding, and a stupid amount of obedience, and before this breeding, a brief foray into dock diving. Her lines also include herding, protection, service dogs, and two work with ICE at border checks. I’m mainly into herding as an active working dog. I use her mainly in herding cattle, and she is trained to both ride with me during a round up, and herds on command. She can mount and unmount from a moving horse, or at a stand still. When I say working dogs, I mean both in either the lineage, in the actual breeding, or both. Myself and my family use dogs mainly for actual work, not competing for titles or as use for PP, but herding is a must for all of us as we all have stock to herd. They are worked on a daily basis, and then laze around when the work is done. So yes, I was okay with them not being my “ideal coat color” because both lines have what is useful to me, to my family that will own the puppies, and do herding titles for fun when we have a chance. But working dogs mean many different things to many different people, and I don’t judge based on their opinion of what a working dog is. Some do it as sport, some as military and police dogs, some as SAR, some as herders. If the dog is happy in his/her job, who really cares what that job is? I had a collie once that was purchased for herding, and he decided he would rather wear a backpack with our supplies and race along with the horse. He worked, he was happy, I was happy.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> welp, I think it’s pointless to respond at this point, just stuck on a merry go round of answering questions and still not being heard, and I feel like it’s picking just to pick at this point. I’ll bow out. Thanks for all the opinions, and those who get what I’m saying and are being supportive and are listening, not listening without hearing just so they can reply. I will puppy spam pictures, but beyond that, I’ll go back to my lurking corner with the other lurkers.


why won’t you answer the question I asked about what titles your breeding pair have? It’s a fair question since you stated they were titled. It’s not attacking you or your breeding just a fair question. I like to see titles in regards to sire and dam but not the deciding factor if I was looking at one of your pups but I DO want to see health testing hips elbows certified and titles on at least 4 generations in the pedigree.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Ignore my first question since I saw your post after I put mine up


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think you will find a great appreciation for real herding dogs on this forum. There are members here too whose dogs are SAR.


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> why won’t you answer the question I asked about what titles your breeding pair have? It’s a fair question since you stated they were titled. It’s not attacking you or your breeding just a fair question. I like to see titles in regards to sire and dam but not the deciding factor if I was looking at one of your pups but I DO want to see health testing hips elbows certified and titles on at least 4 generations in the pedigree.


I replied above, we must have been posting at the same time. I’m not taking your questions negatively, or everyone’s really, I tend to get a little defensive when people question my knowledge of breed standards only because of the extensive amount of time I put into research before even considering breeding.

anywho, I’m editing adorable puppy pics now, and will spam when done. Probably overload with birth order, weights, and pics, because who doesn’t like showing off that cuteness and growth!


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Hi,@Salty dog! Those puppies are so cute!! I was wondering, how did you find a mentor? I want to breed dogs in the future, but I'm a bit unsure of how to find a mentor.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Herding pictures! We need herding pictures too!


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Why would you invest in a breeding pair? Why would you not continue to find a stud that is the best choice for what you want to produce?


I would look for another female, and possibly male, if I decide to continue breeding, only because she is my side kick, the best herder I’ve had to date, and I’ve had plenty throughout my lifetime, so I’d rather keep her as my working girl for the nitty gritty day to day, and get another female for the fun working titles, and less for daily farm work, if that makes any sense. She’s the one that has truly bonded to my heart, and I feel guilty every time I pull her from her pups for work, even though I know it’s an irrational guilt because she loves the work.


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

Shadow Shep said:


> Hi,@Salty dog! Those puppies are so cute!! I was wondering, how did you find a mentor? I want to breed dogs in the future, but I'm a bit unsure of how to find a mentor.


I searched for many years for a breeder that was local to me, and had dogs that had extensive experience with breeding and training for active working dogs. When I found him, I’m not going to lie, I pestered him nonstop until I think he gave up and finally realized I wasn’t going anywhere. I’m pretty positive he hated me for the first few months of meeting in person. Then we just clicked, and I worked along side him with training and whelping for a year before he would agree to be my breeding mentor, and it was then 3 years after that that I actually went through with the breeding. I wanted someone with a wealth of experience, and sound dogs. The absolute best thing I learned through the experience was I now have a lifelong buddy, and also that I will never own or breed BM 😂. Too intense for what I’m looking for, but a great experience when I get to go home alone each day!


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## Salty dog (Aug 10, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Herding pictures! We need herding pictures too!


Oh lord, I’ll have to ask my club if they have any, I’m sure they do! I have always been camera shy when it comes to me in pictures, and when I’m working her, we are both working! But her herding title was through a herding club, so I’m sure they have competition pics of her, I’ll just crop me out!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Salty dog said:


> Oh lord, I’ll have to ask my club if they have any, I’m sure they do! I have always been camera shy when it comes to me in pictures, and when I’m working her, we are both working! But her herding title was through a herding club, so I’m sure they have competition pics of her, I’ll just crop me out!


Sounds like a plan!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If you had led with your dogs’ work experience, you would not have been questioned. Many of us would love to use our dogs for herding but don’t have the opportunity. You probably already have homes lined up.

Please understand we get brand new members who have a male and a female and decide to mate them because they are cute, or good pets, or passed a beginning obedience class. We tend to discourage breeding as a whole unless someone really knows what they are doing. It sounds like you do.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It sounds like you’re going to produce some very biddable dogs. I don’t know how anyone can talk down on dogs that go out and earn their living.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Salty dog said:


> I searched for many years for a breeder that was local to me, and had dogs that had extensive experience with breeding and training for active working dogs. When I found him, I’m not going to lie, I pestered him nonstop until I think he gave up and finally realized I wasn’t going anywhere. I’m pretty positive he hated me for the first few months of meeting in person. Then we just clicked, and I worked along side him with training and whelping for a year before he would agree to be my breeding mentor, and it was then 3 years after that that I actually went through with the breeding. I wanted someone with a wealth of experience, and sound dogs. The absolute best thing I learned through the experience was I now have a lifelong buddy, and also that I will never own or breed BM 😂. Too intense for what I’m looking for, but a great experience when I get to go home alone each day!


Thank you, very much!


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

White on a German shepherd is a DQ and shouldn't be done. Older times a breeder would kill a dog with any white on it out of embarrassment. But then again......your dogs are not German. So do whatever.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> White on a German shepherd is a DQ and shouldn't be done. Older times a breeder would kill a dog with any white on it out of embarrassment. But then again......your dogs are not German. So do whatever.


I have seen many GSD w white on them, feet and especially on the chest. The pups are well bred with excellent pedigree. It’s not a DQ. SV showing allows white patch on Chevy heck even the showlines have white on chest. Now significant white on Paws is not ideal and will be frowned upon in show ring. 
I personally love a lot of pigment and the more the better and would not want a pup with a lot of white but that’s me. Color does not determine temperament or health combined great genetics do. 
The OP has pups placed already and has done a lot more then BYB do as well as some upper class breeders do. 
Also her dog IS a GSD. 
I would like to see pedigree on sire and dam though.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You may want to wait to see how the puppies turn out before you decide to get a new breeding pairs. Dogs out working earning a living can’t be more impressive but it depends what someone is looking for. In my opinion Herding abilities, protective instincts along with gsd’s that are extremely environmental sound with a great nose and hunt drive are really super fun dogs regardless of line. I’m curious to see how the pups turn out. Luna has a huge white patch on her chest her under belly very light and tips of toes white. She is German. One of the first German shepherds were white. So can’t wait to see them grow and see what you have. The first litter is always experimental to see what you get.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

@Jenny720 OP was banned apparently


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Kazel oh! I must of missed that.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> @Kazel oh! I must of missed that.


Me too


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

As far as white goes, a small white patch in the chest or a small amount of white hair is allowed. Anymore is a fault. All white is a disqualification. As for IGP and other performance competitions, it doesn’t matter. There are certain events the dog needs to be registered and pedigreed for, like the GSDCA National and the USCA National. Your dogs physical appearance plays no part.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Salty dog said:


> You said it sounded like I produced a substandard litter. Or that’s how I read it. And I mentioned coloring because I’ve never seen a dog disqualified for competing based on coat color but have heard they can be disqualified for showing, and honestly, I’m not well versed with that venue anyway, so I could be wrong about that. But what I was trying to say that is apparently lacking in its delivery, is that I love the pairing as far as health, temperament, drive, and workability with both the dam which I own, and the sire which I do not own, but I’m not in love with the coloring as a personal preference. I’m not saying they are substandard, I’m saying that had my resources been endless, I would have likely enlarged my radius and bred her to a color other than black. But I’ve also said I’m also loving seeing the daily changes in their coats, and I can now sit back and just enjoy that part of it. I can’t change coat colors now, and I love everything else about the pairing. I would always put health, temperament, i now sound like a broken record, over coat color any and every day. If I had just cared about coat color, I wouldn’t be posting these pictures at all, because there would be no litter.


*From German breed standards and I know the OP is banned, this is also for everyone else who doesn't know or is unaware.

Colors*
Colors are black with reddish-brown, brown and yellow to light grey markings; single-colored black, grey with darker shading, black saddle and mask. Unobtrusive, small white marks on chest as well as very light color on insides are permissible, but not desirable. The tip of the nose must be black in all colors. Dogs with lack of mask, light to piercing eye color, as well as with light to whitish markings on the chest and the insides, pale nails and red tip of tail are considered to be lacking in pigmentation. The undercoat shows a light greyish tone. The color white is not allowed.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

It is generally in poor taste to suggest that someone's dog should have been culled. Or to suggest that their dog is inferior because it is white. AKC registers whites, they simply cannot be shown in conformation classes. But well beyond that @K9WolfAlpha what titles does your dog have? Do you have a dog?


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

My 11 yr old has his CGC, like I said before I went to see a protection class and thought it was too dangerous, then I watched a Schutzhund class 1 hr from home but there were about 40 members, as you may know or not, you need to wait your turn for a 15 min lesson. Once the 40 people began in the morning I would be last on the list like around 6-7pm. The trainer loved him. The tracking took place somewhere even further away. So I just off-leash trained him myself. 
When he was 1 I got a King which aren't in Guiness World Book she's very easy going and mellow. She did one AKC class and that was all she needed. I was within the last 6 mos given a sable intact male whose life was in jeopardy. He's about 11 or so. He does whatever the other dogs do when I issue commands. 
You may think it's in poor taste but regrettably all I said was breeders in the past did cull pups. I did NOT suggest this breeder do that. I would never encourage anyone to kill a puppy over coat color. Color is very unimportant but because she crossed a black and white I think without knowing their pedigrees she made a mistake. Sounded young tho. All anyone can do is try to teach. I never said her dogs were inferior either. Where did you get this from? I posted the German breed coat requirements hardly- makes me the devil. You do realize since she recently joined that she easily could have been trolling and NO I DID NOT SAY SHE's A TROLL, I said could have been. That's not a declarative sentence.
I thought this was a discussion group, I'm discussing.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So just to clarify, the pedigrees of the dogs in question were know. Both dogs had actual titles and were working dogs. The OP stated clearly that the white bitch was one of two whites born in a litter of otherwise standard colors and just happened to be the one the breeder selected for them.
Protection training is only dangerous if done wrong, since obedience is always stressed first and foremost. As to biting without a command that is were the discernment comes in that the breed should have. A well bred dog should never have issues with a neutral stranger. If my dog had waited for a command I would have been laying on the ground with a busted head instead of sitting in emerg with a busted arm.
I have no issues with discussion, but I would be gravely offended if someone told me my dog should have been culled. There are plenty of good ol' black and tan breeders who are doing much less then this particular person.
As far as whites go, pick any pedigree and follow it back as far as you can. Bet you find white.
And you just joined as well so...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Since "she" was banned so quickly, "she" or "it" was probably a previously banned member and the dogs are probably nonexistent. That's just a guess based on previous, quickly, banned people who have proven themselves certifiable.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> So just to clarify, the pedigrees of the dogs in question were know. Both dogs had actual titles and were working dogs. The OP stated clearly that the white bitch was one of two whites born in a litter of otherwise standard colors and just happened to be the one the breeder selected for them.


Many times was asked for pedigree, they can normally be found online. How many times was she asked? 7.
She finally posted: "male SAR working dog" dam "Herding cattle at her home and tons of OB". TITLES ARE WHERE? Pedigrees are where? Would love to see them.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Assuming this is legit. Working, actual working dogs, are generally considered equivalent of titles. And for some education, herding and obedience are titles. 
CGC is not.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

On January 1, 2013 *Canine* Good Citizen® became an official AKC *title* that can appear on the *title* records of *dogs* registered or listed with AKC. *Dog* owners who complete the *CGC* as a *Title* process may list the suffix “*CGC*” after the *dog's* name.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> On January 1, 2013 *Canine* Good Citizen® became an official AKC *title* that can appear on the *title* records of *dogs* registered or listed with AKC. *Dog* owners who complete the *CGC* as a *Title* process may list the suffix “*CGC*” after the *dog's* name.


I can't speak for Sabi's Mom and how she meant it, but I took it as her saying a CGC _title_ is not a breeding title - a title that proves a dog is worthy of being bred. It's still a title, and it's great that someone put the work into getting a CGC for their dog (because most dog owners won't do it, even if a lot of people here consider a CGC basic stuff), but a CGC is something every single dog should be able to get and doesn't prove stellar nerves, working ability, or frankly anything that most other dogs don't have.

But yes, technically it is a title, and I applaud anyone that puts the time into getting one for their dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> I can't speak for Sabi's Mom and how she meant it, but I took it as her saying a CGC _title_ is not a breeding title - a title that proves a dog is worthy of being bred. It's still a title, and it's great that someone put the work into getting a CGC for their dog (because most dog owners won't do it, even if a lot of people here consider a CGC basic stuff), but a CGC is something every single dog should be able to get and doesn't prove stellar nerves, working ability, or frankly anything that most other dogs don't have.
> 
> But yes, technically it is a title, and I applaud anyone that puts the time into getting one for their dog.


Exactly. It's sort of comparing a high school diploma to a university degree. It's great you did it, does not qualify you for anything.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Well as I am understanding what you call titles, if a dog does some work herding that's considered a title. I had a female back in 2006 or so and needed her to herd a bull into a pen. A cop and I held out our arms to stop the bull from getting into the road yet into the corral. I put the dog behind the bull (never trained for herding but I told the cop shepHERD so she should do it.) He was doubtful but I put her in a stay behind the bull, we raised our arms and not knowing anything about a command I told her to get the bull. She barked and chased him between us and the corral right into the corral. Qualifies as herding title?
Also, neighbors heard gunshots one morning and their shepherd never came back from his morning whizz. The entire neighborhood had been searching for him in hunter orange but by 1pm called the PD for help. I took the same dog out and unleashed her saying find the dog. He was only 5 or 600 feet from his house, tail tucked and shot dead by a hunter who finding he shot a dog ran home like a baby on his ATV. My dog stopped, stood over the dog and nudged him. That's how I found him. She was never taught to alert. People had probably gone past him all morning. She also found a lost mini poodle; a dog across a pond I refused to let her go into cuz I had to follow her but later the dog after 3 days returned home. SAR? Once was asked to help find a child and her dog but her dog led her to volunteers.
I've had dogs do some amazing things without any training so I can say she had those titles cuz she performed to perfection. Right?
I never had time to formally train with a club and there were no clubs where I lived anyway. The CGC was in another state and years later. I have owned I think 10 shepherds, fostered for rescues, volunteered at shelters, raised a few litters of kittens (nightmare). So it's fine you don't acknowledge CGC as a title, I've had shepherds working in the field without any formal training.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

No. Your dog impressing you and your neighbors does not qualify.
Look, I have no clue why you chose to be inflammatory, argumentative and negative but I'm glad you are getting something out of it. SAR is a long way from your dog finding a carcass, herding is a long way from a dog chasing something. You seem very good at regurgitating popular info so perhaps you should look up working titles. I did specify ACTUAL work, so military/police/protection/stock/service/SAR. All of which require endless hours of training and work, all but stock and service have certifications involved for good reason. And no stock dogs don't just chase animals around, that's an insult. And no your friends dog that makes them happy isn't a service dog, again an insult.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Well as I am understanding what you call titles, if a dog does some work herding that's considered a title. I had a female back in 2006 or so and needed her to herd a bull into a pen. A cop and I held out our arms to stop the bull from getting into the road yet into the corral. I put the dog behind the bull (never trained for herding but I told the cop shepHERD so she should do it.) He was doubtful but I put her in a stay behind the bull, we raised our arms and not knowing anything about a command I told her to get the bull. She barked and chased him between us and the corral right into the corral. Qualifies as herding title?
> Also, neighbors heard gunshots one morning and their shepherd never came back from his morning whizz. The entire neighborhood had been searching for him in hunter orange but by 1pm called the PD for help. I took the same dog out and unleashed her saying find the dog. He was only 5 or 600 feet from his house, tail tucked and shot dead by a hunter who finding he shot a dog ran home like a baby on his ATV. My dog stopped, stood over the dog and nudged him. That's how I found him. She was never taught to alert. People had probably gone past him all morning. She also found a lost mini poodle; a dog across a pond I refused to let her go into cuz I had to follow her but later the dog after 3 days returned home. SAR? Once was asked to help find a child and her dog but her dog led her to volunteers.
> I've had dogs do some amazing things without any training so I can say she had those titles cuz she performed to perfection. Right?
> I never had time to formally train with a club and there were no clubs where I lived anyway. The CGC was in another state and years later. I have owned I think 10 shepherds, fostered for rescues, volunteered at shelters, raised a few litters of kittens (nightmare). So it's fine you don't acknowledge CGC as a title, I've had shepherds working in the field without any formal training.


Your dogs are exhibiting the genetic predispositions for which they have been genetically bred. It is up to you to either guide those predispositions to obtain a title or to train the dog how to use those predispositions to do real work using those skills on a regular basis to qualify as a working dog. Or you can choose to do nothing with the predispositions and just observe them as they naturally occur and make no claim to fame.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

I don't recognize a difference between what her dog did and what mine did. Maybe you see one I don't. There is no explanation as to HOW her dog herded. In the pure German way? Tagging along behind the cows? Follow her on the horse? What? How?
In this section of her post she refers to the lineage of the dogs but for the *male being SAR the only real title if he has one* and litter mates 'have worked as well' in what?
Her (dam) *lines* include: whatever, because the lines are not titles of her specific dog. So the 7 people asking about pedigree never really got answered.

She uses her dog for herding cattle which may or may not be occurring because there are no titles involved that one can look up and see.
So I guess I don't know the difference. My working line GSDs all had backgrounds of dogs with plenty of titles, but that's not what MY PERSONAL dog had. She performed as though she did have titles; finding missing dogs, herding a bull. Her performance for an untrained dog was exemplary. The cop was amazed, "How did she do that?" I said German ShepHERD so it's natural.



Salty dog said:


> Sire is a working SAR dog, and assists with search and rescue of missing people. His line is titled in protection, and littermates are working in narc detection. Dam has titles in basics. Herding, and a stupid amount of obedience, and before this breeding, a brief foray into dock diving. Her lines also include herding, protection, service dogs, and two work with ICE at border checks. I’m mainly into herding as an active working dog. [QUOTE


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sire is a WORKING SAR dog. 
Dam has titles in the basics. Herding, Obedience and Dock Diving. She also is a working ranch dog. 


Your dog did not herd anything it chased another animal. My dog does that daily. It's not herding, it's chasing. And finding other dogs is sort of what they do. Now personally I believe my dog is a super star and should be honored and adored by all, because she is the greatest dg ever! That is why titles are obtained by putting you and your dog under scrutiny by someone else who is qualified to make such a decision based on their experience and hard work.

Titling a dog, or certifying, means that your dogs training and ability to put that training to use have been seen and assessed by an unbiased third party. I am not personally keen on protection sports but tracking, obedience and herding titles are all very indicative of what a well bred GSD should be.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

vomlittlehaus said:


> Interesting color pattern on them now. What was your goal with this pairing? Dam must have blk/tan in her background.





Salty dog said:


> Actually, one more question. What is substandard about two health tested, temperament tested, and titled dogs ever considered a substandard pairing just based on coat color? With the obvious exception of show dogs?


In Germany (I don't know if it still holds true but........) they euthanized white GSDs as it is a serious fault. A breeder concerned about the standard would not be mixing a white into the breeding.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Sire is a WORKING SAR dog.
> Dam has titles in the basics. Herding, Obedience and Dock Diving. She also is a working ranch dog.
> 
> 
> ...


I am not by any means sticking up for K9alfa because I agree with your comment regarding his or her attitude in all the post he or she has made. I copied the OP’s comment in regards to her dogs titles.


Sire is a working SAR dog, and assists with search and rescue of missing people. His line is titled in protection, and littermates are working in narc detection. Dam has titles in basics. Herding, and a stupid amount of obedience, and before this breeding, a brief foray into dock diving. Her lines also include herding, protection, service dogs, and two work with ICE at border checks. I’m mainly into herding as an active working dog. I use her mainly in herding cattle, and she is trained to both ride with me during a round up, and herds on command.
Sire is supposedly titled in SA
No where did she say her female was titled in HRD she said above quote. She could have a HIC herding instinct certificate for all we know and it is no way close to a HRD title which is also recognized by the SV to be equivalent to a IPG1 which qualifies to breed. I would rather see a HRD titled dog then a IPG titled dog. Lots of work hard to pass and few GSD’s have earned that title. 

OB titles great what type? CD, CDX etc which are nice titles and fine to breed but trick titles CGC, CGCU, etc not sufficient to breed IMO.

Dock Diving, OP just dabbled in it. Takes a lot more then that to obtain a title but still not sufficient for breeding.

so I see where K9 Alfa is coming from in regards to his comment.

I never saw a pedigree just the OP’s word about both dogs having titles.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Salty dog said:


> I’m incredibly interested to see their coloring as they grow. Dad is a black, mom is a white. I’ve done so much research, and it seems to be a crap shoot. Both parents fully health cleared with great hip ratings, and both tested negative for DM gene, so I’m happy to sit back and watch them grow.


I am personally appalled by all of the "lets see what happens if......." breeding. Someone wants a German Shepherd Dog that looks like a bull dog and has hair like a poodle will never get it because there is a standard to judge by. That does not mean the dogs are bad or can't work but they will never anything more than a pet and companion dog.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Salty dog said:


> Actually, one more question. What is substandard about two health tested, temperament tested, and titled dogs ever considered a substandard pairing just based on coat color? With the obvious exception of show dogs?


We have had some beautiful GSD females. But they were not good enough to show. They were excellent in obedience, tracking, bitework and fantastic temperament. But they were not good enough to the standard to breed and they were all neutered. That is responsible parenting of a GSD.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I don't recognize a difference between what her dog did and what mine did. Maybe you see one I don't. There is no explanation as to HOW her dog herded. In the pure German way? Tagging along behind the cows? Follow her on the horse? What? How?
> In this section of her post she refers to the lineage of the dogs but for the *male being SAR the only real title if he has one* and litter mates 'have worked as well' in what?
> Her (dam) *lines* include: whatever, because the lines are not titles of her specific dog. So the 7 people asking about pedigree never really got answered.
> 
> ...


at this point regarding her dogs, your arguing hypotheticals. If you’re talking a dog actively herding and working livestock on a farm on a daily basis, that’s fine. If you’re talking a sar dog, that is also fine as far as a title. Now ultimately I will tell you it’s not what I am looking for because those skill sets don’t necessarily translate to the fields I want to use my dogs in. It does tell me enough to be confident that the dog is tested. The easiest explanation of titles I find acceptable is titled in a competitive, complex field that shows the dog working under some amount of stress and allows me to see a good snap shot of the dogs character. As far as actual work, any job that fits what the breed is meant to be such as military, police or herding work show me the same. If I was buying a dog based on actual work of the parents, I would require some sort of verification. Even if we’re talking titles, those can be looked up. I’m not referring to PDB either. I was interested in the pedigree and lineage of the dogs involved. I was also curious about the structure and other attributes of the dogs. Seeing as I had no interest in actually buying any of these puppies, I wasn’t going to go through the effort of verifying these things. As for your dogs, what I take is that they will chase animals and follow a random dog/ decaying body scent. If you don’t understand the difference between actual herding and tracking and what your dog did, I would advise you to do some research. The actual information about the dogs no longer matters.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I am not by any means sticking up for K9alfa because I agree with your comment regarding his or her attitude in all the post he or she has made. I copied the OP’s comment in regards to her dogs titles.
> 
> 
> Sire is a working SAR dog, and assists with search and rescue of missing people. His line is titled in protection, and littermates are working in narc detection. Dam has titles in basics. Herding, and a stupid amount of obedience, and before this breeding, a brief foray into dock diving. Her lines also include herding, protection, service dogs, and two work with ICE at border checks. I’m mainly into herding as an active working dog. I use her mainly in herding cattle, and she is trained to both ride with me during a round up, and herds on command.
> ...


You make valid points. I interpret the comment differently. There was talk of a club. 
If I said to you " Sabi was a PPD/patrol dog also certified for tracking and detection. " You would take that at face value.
If I said "Sabi was certified. Did some protection and sometimes some detection or tracking." It sounds a bit off.
A stupid amount of obedience sounds like something more the a CGC to me. Heck I'm no trainer and I could get the Punk through that with some lead time. Any working ranch dog has more then that level of training on a bad day.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

As for color and conformation vs working ability, that’s debatable. I don’t know why white dogs are not allowed, other than the rich pigmentation mentioned that is desired. It wasn’t that long ago that long coats weren’t accepted though, and I would have been perfectly fine with one if the working ability and structure checked out. I would say a lot of the questions I asked are the sane I would ask my breeder, but most of it is information I expect to be readily available and offered. To say that a new breeder isn’t welcome is disingenuous. I love to talk to breeders about their dogs, the pairing they made, why , what the expected what they got, their goals, and so on. Ultimately I was looking for a conversation along those lines.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

coolgsd said:


> In Germany (I don't know if it still holds true but........) they euthanized white GSDs as it is a serious fault. A breeder concerned about the standard would not be mixing a white into the breeding.


Well in North America they are registerable and can compete and hold titles in any working class.
Again, comments suggesting that someone's dog is worthy of being killed are in poor taste. And a good many whites appear in pedigrees that may surprise you.
I "know" you and I get that wasn't what you meant. But if it was my dog we were talking about I would be incredibly hurt by that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> As for color and conformation vs working ability, that’s debatable. I don’t know why white dogs are not allowed, other than the rich pigmentation mentioned that is desired. It wasn’t that long ago that long coats weren’t accepted though, and I would have been perfectly fine with one if the working ability and structure checked out. I would say a lot of the questions I asked are the sane I would ask my breeder, but most of it is information I expect to be readily available and offered. To say that a new breeder isn’t welcome is disingenuous. I love to talk to breeders about their dogs, the pairing they made, why , what the expected what they got, their goals, and so on. Ultimately I was looking for a conversation along those lines.


First off, I want to say that I love all colors of German Shepherds and have met some really nice white dogs.

I don't know all of the details but know that there are some kind of studies or research linking a lack of pigment in all animals across the board to some type of instability. That's one of the reasons that when white dogs weren't DQ'd, that the nose pigment had to be black. It's actually a real thing. It's also the reason that some breeders like to see black spots on the tongue but I don't know if there is any basis for that.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> You make valid points. I interpret the comment differently. There was talk of a club.
> If I said to you " Sabi was a PPD/patrol dog also certified for tracking and detection. " You would take that at face value.
> If I said "Sabi was certified. Did some protection and sometimes some detection or tracking." It sounds a bit off.
> A stupid amount of obedience sounds like something more the a CGC to me. Heck I'm no trainer and I could get the Punk through that with some lead time. Any working ranch dog has more then that level of training on a bad day.


I understand what you say but the OP did not specify what actual titles the females has, heck we may never know. While I’m not knocking down the CGC which now is an actual title (yikes) which in my opinion is just a certificate just made into a title for AKC to make more money is not qualified to breed.
I’ve done the CGC and 3 out of 8 dogs should have never passed one attacked another dog in the class prior to testing yet still passed the others poor temperaments. it’s a nice thing to have on your dog but does not pass the requirements for breeding.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I understand what you say but the OP did not specify what actual titles the females has, heck we may never know. While I’m not knocking down the CGC which now is an actual title (yikes) which in my opinion is just a certificate just made into a title for AKC to make more money is not qualified to breed.
> I’ve done the CGC and 3 out of 8 dogs should have never passed one attacked another dog in the class prior to testing yet still passed the others poor temperaments. it’s a nice thing to have on your dog but does not pass the requirements for breeding.


Totally agree. Titles were never specified. And we will never know if the dogs were even real. 
I was going to try to get Shadow her CGN this year. Canadian equivalent of CGC. Then covid happened. Lol.
For her it's a huge accomplishment, we've worked through the test. Even with stiff evaluating she could pass. For a normal dog it really shouldn't be an issue. It definitely isn't "a stupid amount of obedience"


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Totally agree. Titles were never specified. And we will never know if the dogs were even real.
> I was going to try to get Shadow her CGN this year. Canadian equivalent of CGC. Then covid happened. Lol.
> For her it's a huge accomplishment, we've worked through the test. Even with stiff evaluating she could pass. For a normal dog it really shouldn't be an issue. It definitely isn't "a stupid amount of obedience"


I always applaud any dog owner for doing these. As long as the dog passes legitimately. Good luck.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

OK... I have to admit, Hans would never pass the CGC test😂
So I am impressed with any dog that can 😁



Pytheis said:


> CGC is something every single dog should be able to get


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sabis mom said:


> Sire is a WORKING SAR dog.
> Dam has titles in the basics. Herding, Obedience and Dock Diving. She also is a working ranch dog.
> 
> 
> ...


And at least in the venues I title in, not only must a biased 3rd party pass you. But typically you have to pass 3 times under at least 2 judges for the title. AKC tracking is a one off but there is more than one judge present on a track.

So the title indicates that the dog can consistently do whatever it is, and confirmed by more than one neutral 3rd party. 

You can't enter an AKC TD without a certification which is the dog passing an individual track laid by a judge. Once you pass TD you can enter the others but no dog is going to pass a TDX or a VST by accident.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> OK... I have to admit, Hans would never pass the CGC test😂
> So I am impressed with any dog that can 😁


Hans may surprise you. Shadow could not have done it at 5, she would have lost her marbles, but she's 10 now and we've worked really hard on her fear issues.

One other thing to look for though, a lot of puppies get their CGC/CGN when they are really young. That should not count.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> I will upload and post both pedigrees. I’m not disappointed with the breeding, or the dam or sire. I wasn’t 100% thrilled with the coloring, but I wasn’t 100% thrilled when I learned my first born child was a boy when I really wanted a girl. But it didn’t change the fact that I loved him, and I couldn’t be happier with the man he’s turned into, and I wouldn’t go back and change him to a girl given the chance. Same with this litter. Maybe I am too emotional from lack of sleep. I just wanted to share some cute puppiness, and answered a good question that was posed about what my aim was for this litter.
> Yes, I have read an exhausting amount of research spanning a solid 20+ years on German shepherds and their standards. 20+ years ago a sable Shepherd would have been odd to see in public, and now I see more sables than any other color. Heck, within the last 5 years I’ve seen an explosion of black shepherds when they were more rare 6 years ago. So what is your question regarding my knowledge or research on the standards for this breed? I’m well aware what the standards are for coat colors, lengths, patterns. I’m also aware of standards having nothing to do with their coats. I’m also aware of the health issues the breed is at risk for. I’m also aware of poorly bred shepherds and the massive amounts dropped at shelters, or even well bred Shepherd that went to owners who couldn’t handle it in the long run and are too embarrassed to admit it to their breeders.
> They are not going to pet homes. My family is all very active in the dog community, and aren’t novice owners expecting a pet to just happily be stuck inside 24/7 waiting patiently for their owner to return home and then lay around watching their owner watch TV and then go to bed. My family has owned working dogs in one capacity or another for as far back as I can remember. What they haven’t done, or haven’t wanted to do, is breed German shepherds, so why would I not have them spayed/neutered and stop any chance of a random getting ahold of a bitch in heat, or getting out and impregnating half the neighborhood. Accidents happen. I’ve lurked enough to know that much, and look at the comments on those posts. If you didn’t plan to breed them, why keep them intact? If you couldn’t keep them contained when in heat, why didn’t you spay them. If that one second your young child accidentally left the door open, why didn’t you have a better trained dog that wouldn’t wander off, or why weren’t safety measures in place to make sure your 10 year old is perfectly trained to never make the mistake in leaving the door open to begin with. If I missed any other questions, my apologies. I do have one of my own though.
> When can enjoying puppy cuteness just be enjoying puppy cuteness without the 5th degree? Only when it’s a long time member that breeds? Sigh


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> I will upload and post both pedigrees. I’m not disappointed with the breeding, or the dam or sire. I wasn’t 100% thrilled with the coloring, but I wasn’t 100% thrilled when I learned my first born child was a boy when I really wanted a girl. But it didn’t change the fact that I loved him, and I couldn’t be happier with the man he’s turned into, and I wouldn’t go back and change him to a girl given the chance. Same with this litter. Maybe I am too emotional from lack of sleep. I just wanted to share some cute puppiness, and answered a good question that was posed about what my aim was for this litter.
> Yes, I have read an exhausting amount of research spanning a solid 20+ years on German shepherds and their standards. 20+ years ago a sable Shepherd would have been odd to see in public, and now I see more sables than any other color. Heck, within the last 5 years I’ve seen an explosion of black shepherds when they were more rare 6 years ago. So what is your question regarding my knowledge or research on the standards for this breed? I’m well aware what the standards are for coat colors, lengths, patterns. I’m also aware of standards having nothing to do with their coats. I’m also aware of the health issues the breed is at risk for. I’m also aware of poorly bred shepherds and the massive amounts dropped at shelters, or even well bred Shepherd that went to owners who couldn’t handle it in the long run and are too embarrassed to admit it to their breeders.
> They are not going to pet homes. My family is all very active in the dog community, and aren’t novice owners expecting a pet to just happily be stuck inside 24/7 waiting patiently for their owner to return home and then lay around watching their owner watch TV and then go to bed. My family has owned working dogs in one capacity or another for as far back as I can remember. What they haven’t done, or haven’t wanted to do, is breed German shepherds, so why would I not have them spayed/neutered and stop any chance of a random getting ahold of a bitch in heat, or getting out and impregnating half the neighborhood. Accidents happen. I’ve lurked enough to know that much, and look at the comments on those posts. If you didn’t plan to breed them, why keep them intact? If you couldn’t keep them contained when in heat, why didn’t you spay them. If that one second your young child accidentally left the door open, why didn’t you have a better trained dog that wouldn’t wander off, or why weren’t safety measures in place to make sure your 10 year old is perfectly trained to never make the mistake in leaving the door open to begin with. If I missed any other questions, my apologies. I do have one of my own though.
> When can enjoying puppy cuteness just be enjoying puppy cuteness without the 5th degree? Only when it’s a long time member that breeds? Sigh


WELL SAID!!!!


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

well said I think you are doing a great job


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> I’m not sure what you are missing in my replies. Yes, I’m well aware of genetics, and how it can and does affect behaviors, and what is considered acceptable or sought after in order to bred a dam or sire, and what each parents genetic markings (for behavior as well as health, color, etc) predict for a breeding. I’m aware that a freak of nature can also occur that can’t be planned on no matter how much gentetics have been thoughtfully planned out and mapped, and how it can affect one puppy out of an otherwise exemplary litter. Is this the warm welcome everyone gets here, or is this just exclusive to me?


NOPE NOT JUST YOU-we have more good people then know it alls but dont let that scare you away from this good site


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

dogfaeries said:


> You are just fine. Post away. Post puppy photos


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> Just wanted to share the adorableness
> View attachment 561930
> View attachment 561928
> View attachment 561929
> ...


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

dojoson41 said:


> NOPE NOT JUST YOU-we have more good people then know it alls but dont let that scare you away from this good site and welcome. as for the puppy pics=AAAWWWWW TOO CUTE!!!!!


to the know it alls-Please lay off already your giving us all a bad name-thank you


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> I want puppy spam!





MineAreWorkingline said:


> What does the color of the coat have to do with temperament?


can we lay OFF already about the color already please


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> welp, I think it’s pointless to respond at this point, just stuck on a merry go round of answering questions and still not being heard, and I feel like it’s picking just to pick at this point. I’ll bow out. Thanks for all the opinions, and those who get what I’m saying and are being supportive and are listening, not listening without hearing just so they can reply. I will puppy spam pictures, but beyond that, I’ll go back to my lurking corner with the other lurkers.


This is why I dont really post either because there are those who just want to r complain-I have the German show-line dogs as some put it-not working line dogs-nope just that normal dog who are and their lines that ARE test out of the wazzo in Germany( I wont tell the Germans how to breed Their DOG-some people dont like the show dogs but I dont care what they think-and I will never tell or speak bad about any one and their beliefs in types of lines either, the world is big enough for all and it will dictate breeding. I will be responsible for my dogs/future dogs/breeders and continue on my merry way in this short life. I will just ask questions with answers given for there are a lot of helpful people on this site. thank you


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Shadow Shep said:


> Hi,@Salty dog! Those puppies are so cute!! I was wondering, how did you find a mentor? I want to breed dogs in the future, but I'm a bit unsure of how to find a mentor.


good luck in finding any of those-mentors/herding/ tracking/showing in most parts of NJ unless you want to drive from Southern NJ to Northern NJ


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> I searched for many years for a breeder that was local to me, and had dogs that had extensive experience with breeding and training for active working dogs. When I found him, I’m not going to lie, I pestered him nonstop until I think he gave up and finally realized I wasn’t going anywhere. I’m pretty positive he hated me for the first few months of meeting in person. Then we just clicked, and I worked along side him with training and whelping for a year before he would agree to be my breeding mentor, and it was then 3 years after that that I actually went through with the breeding. I wanted someone with a wealth of experience, and sound dogs. The absolute best thing I learned through the experience was I now have a lifelong buddy, and also that I will never own or breed BM 😂. Too intense for what I’m looking for, but a great experience when I get to go home alone each day!


WOW somebody definitely did more homework then most of us-good for you


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sabis mom said:


> Well in North America they are registerable and can compete and hold titles in any working class.
> Again, comments suggesting that someone's dog is worthy of being killed are in poor taste. And a good many whites appear in pedigrees that may surprise you.
> I "know" you and I get that wasn't what you meant. But if it was my dog we were talking about I would be incredibly hurt by that.


Yes. My white is registered as a GSD and has plenty of AKC titles. He cannot however compete in AKC conformation. He could in UKC (if he had both nuts, which he unfortunately doesn't). AWSA also has conformation for whites.

I hope and think that we are way past killing white pups--- I don't think anybody breeding GSDs DOESN'T know if their dog carries white. People who have whites in litters knew they would, and wouldn't have done the breeding if they didn't know there was going to be a white. I mean, people who are breeding wl's or wgsl know their dogs' pedigree and there haven't been whites in those lines for a loooong time, so I just don't believe it is likely or even possible for a random white to pop up. 

If you don't want whites, you don't breed them. People who want them breed them. No point in rehashing how they used to be killed in the whelping box. 

As an aside-- I found it really interesting that those puppies had so much white on them? As I understand it, white dogs can't produce that-- except in that they are masking what color the dog really is so if it had larger white patches you wouldn't know. But what I am trying to say is that white + color does not produce a black and white paint puppy if you know what I mean? I didn't think GSDs could even be as black and white patched as those puppies were, but maybe the white shrinks as they grow up? Because I know I've seen ASLs with white spots on chest and feet.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dojoson41 said:


> can we lay OFF already about the color already please


Excuse me? While the OP was endlessly hammering away about color I was questioning what that had to do with temperament. Perhaps try reading the posts before you shoot the wrong messenger.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dojoson41 said:


> to the know it alls-Please lay off already your giving us all a bad name-thank you


This was not a real person. All this was fake.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Hans may surprise you. Shadow could not have done it at 5, she would have lost her marbles, but she's 10 now and we've worked really hard on her fear issues.
> 
> One other thing to look for though, a lot of puppies get their CGC/CGN when they are really young. That should not count.


I agree. I’ve seen puppies 6mo and older in the CGC class and pass. Wonder if they would pass at 2 yrs or older. AKC needs to change the age requirements but we all know they would loose a lot of money.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

While the OP may not even exist it’s a good thread in regards to titles, certifications for breeding.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Sire is a WORKING SAR dog.
> Dam has titles in the basics. Herding, Obedience and Dock Diving. She also is a working ranch dog.
> 
> 
> ...


I never in my life want to breed my dog so why pay and spend every Sat for months on end to get a title I never needed? My female deserved a title and she wasn't "chasing" an animal. What dog in its right mind would, for no reason, chase a 1 ton grazing beast? The bull was grazing and not paying attention to the dog, nor was he running anywhere, she had to get his attention FIRST by herself. _Chasing an animal_, LOL.
So you believe the person who bread a white to a black and you never saw a pedigree or title yet you'd prefer defending a banned breeder outside the standards rather than a curious question oriented person correct?

BTW my male got his CGC after a yr old. Is some one degrading a title on a dog? Cuz I had no intention of breeding him and he EARNED THE TITLE.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> As for color and conformation vs working ability, that’s debatable. I don’t know why white dogs are not allowed, other than the rich pigmentation mentioned that is desired. It wasn’t that long ago that long coats weren’t accepted though, and I would have been perfectly fine with one if the working ability and structure checked out. I would say a lot of the questions I asked are the sane I would ask my breeder, but most of it is information I expect to be readily available and offered. To say that a new breeder isn’t welcome is disingenuous. I love to talk to breeders about their dogs, the pairing they made, why , what the expected what they got, their goals, and so on. Ultimately I was looking for a conversation along those lines.







__





COLORS OF A GSD | VomGeliebtenHaus


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Pale, washed-out off-colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.

I saw someone put on this thread a white dog is perfectly acceptable. NOT.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I never in my life want to breed my dog so why pay and spend every Sat for months on end to get a title I never needed? My female deserved a title and she wasn't "chasing" an animal. What dog in its right mind would, for no reason, chase a 1 ton grazing beast? The bull was grazing and not paying attention to the dog, nor was he running anywhere, she had to get his attention FIRST by herself. _Chasing an animal_, LOL.
> So you believe the person who bread a white to a black and you never saw a pedigree or title yet you'd prefer defending a banned breeder outside the standards rather than a curious question oriented person correct?


As an owner of a blue Heeler, I can answer that. She is genetically bred to be attracted to cattle. She has no problem transferring her instincts to other large animals if those animals are unruly. She is very strict enforcing the no running in the house rule with the big males here.

It is not unusual for a dog to circle and orient toward potential prey in order to determine the risk when the prey is a large animal. If the prey startles or runs, risks are lower. If the prey returns the gaze or ignores, perhaps another time. German Shepherds are genetically bred to be especially attracted to sheep but it wouldn't surprise me if other livestock would also have some appeal. I have seen it in my own with goats.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

This is shepherd herding they never, NEVER chase the animals. They circle the herd and divert them where the owner tells them to put them. My dog did the same thing.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

HAHAHAHA.... cool. A dog moves 1 cow and should have a title.

This is the canine equivalent of the every kid gets a trophy theory.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> HAHAHAHA.... cool. A dog moves 1 cow and should have a title.
> 
> This is the canine equivalent of the every kid gets a trophy theory.


I'm sure Ulf would agree.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> HAHAHAHA.... cool. A dog moves 1 cow and should have a title.
> 
> This is the canine equivalent of the every kid gets a trophy theory.





Jax08 said:


> I'm sure Ulf would agree.


Shadow herds cats! I want my title.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Because I only mention her first time herding you're making fun of me/her? She also "tried" herding a HUGE pig that was loose in a graveyard. He lived in a cement structure and wasn't able to dig. So first thing he does in the graveyard is knock over headstones and dig as much as possible throwing dirt all over. Pigs are not intimidated by a dog. She tried, she barked and nipped his butt but he was way too happy rolling in the soil. 
She was a natural herder. So you can pick on me and put her down all you want and I do not care at all. I know how intelligent she was and what she was capable of and you will never know. She was the smartest dog I ever owned and I owned over 10 GSDs. You can believe the black/white breeder (?) with no proof; over my dog. Do. Not. Care.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I am ABSOLUTELY not making fun of your dog in any way. Natural herding instincts are awesome!

I am pointing out that a single event, or 10, does not make a working title, and insinuating that it should is denigrating to everyone that puts in the time, effort and expense to earn said titles.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Because I only mention her first time herding you're making fun of me/her? She also "tried" herding a HUGE pig that was loose in a graveyard. He lived in a cement structure and wasn't able to dig. So first thing he does in the graveyard is knock over headstones and dig as much as possible throwing dirt all over. Pigs are not intimidated by a dog. She tried, she barked and nipped his butt but he was way too happy rolling in the soil.
> She was a natural herder. So you can pick on me and put her down all you want and I do not care at all. I know how intelligent she was and what she was capable of and you will never know. She was the smartest dog I ever owned and I owned over 10 GSDs. You can believe the black/white breeder (?) with no proof; over my dog. Do. Not. Care.


There is nothing special about a Shepherd having herding instincts or to be attracted to livestock. Herding instincts are the foundation of work venues.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I never in my life want to breed my dog so why pay and spend every Sat for months on end to get a title I never needed? My female deserved a title and she wasn't "chasing" an animal. What dog in its right mind would, for no reason, chase a 1 ton grazing beast? The bull was grazing and not paying attention to the dog, nor was he running anywhere, she had to get his attention FIRST by herself. _Chasing an animal_, LOL.
> So you believe the person who bread a white to a black and you never saw a pedigree or title yet you'd prefer defending a banned breeder outside the standards rather than a curious question oriented person correct?
> 
> BTW my male got his CGC after a yr old. Is some one degrading a title on a dog? Cuz I had no intention of breeding him and he EARNED THE TITLE.


Oh please, dogs go after non running livestock all the time. It still isn't herding.

Maybe your dog did herd, I don't know. But what you describe does not prove it. I had a dog who kind of wanted to eat my horses. He had no problem going for them and they never ran from him. This dog had zero interest in herding anything, he just liked to kill stuff and wasn't the least bit intimidated by a 1000lb animal.

He also would nip at things...sometimes to test response and/or decide exactly where he wanted to latch on to bring it down


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I am ABSOLUTELY not making fun of your dog in any way. Natural herding instincts are awesome!
> 
> I am pointing out that a single event, or 10, does not make a working title, and insinuating that it should is denigrating to everyone that puts in the time, effort and expense to earn said titles.


But then why support fake breeder?? Her "fake titles" are all you need to support her fake cattle herding dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

For that matter my white dog ducked under some hotwire to go check out some dairy steers. It was stupid of me not to have better control of him. They hadn't been in that field before and I wasn't expecting them. They stood their ground and he recalled thank goodness and no harm done.

There were three of them. He was pretty excited about charging up to them. They were maybe 700 or 800lb apiece, not huge for a steer I guess.

Getting him tested on sheep was one of my bucket list things but its just so many hrs to get to anything I've never done it. I'd drive for the training if he had the instinct but I have no idea if he does or not. It's still on the bucket list though...


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Chasing a solitary animal is chasing. Working a group of livestock is herding. 

The draw of the lone animal to return to the group of animals is what allows flocking species to be herded.

Sometimes pressure from a dog is enough to make livestock move in the direction you want. Any dog will do. A person with an understanding of livestock flight zones and movement can take a golden retriever on a leash into an arena with sheep and drive those sheep through a gate with the dog at their side on a rope. The sheep reacted to to pressure of the dog - but the dog did not do any herding.

The above isn’t to take away from or discredit any dog that actually works, but there’s an awful lot of misinformation out there.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> But then why support fake breeder?? Her "fake titles" are all you need to support her fake cattle herding dog.


Just who are you talking about here? I have shown no support for fake anything. I'm the one that pointed out that the OP is fake and her whole conversation is based on lies.

Look at it this way.

Valor will occasionally bark at someone, bites a tug or rag well and will out, can sit/down/stand/down/sit/stand/down, and tracks crickets in my front yard.

Should he have an IPG3?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You bet he should! 🥰🥰🥰



David Winners said:


> Valor will occasionally bark at someone, bites a tug or rag well and will out, can sit/down/stand/down/sit/stand/down, and tracks crickets in my front yard.
> 
> Should he have an IPG3?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In regards to the SV yes it is a disqualification for confirmation. I have never in the years of sport have I seen a white GSD trial heck I don’t know if they are allowed to trial for example under USCA but in AKC the white can be registered I believe but can’t be shown in AKC confirmation. UKC a white can be shown in conformation


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your dogs are exhibiting the genetic predispositions for which they have been genetically bred. It is up to you to either guide those predispositions to obtain a title or to train the dog how to use those predispositions to do real work using those skills on a regular basis to qualify as a working dog. Or you can choose to do nothing with the predispositions and just observe them as they naturally occur and make no claim to fame.


[Sentence removed by moderator, personal criticism unrelated to the topic]

Would anyone understand the word facetious? I didn't believe the fake breeder; not one thing it said. I also don't believe anything you're bsing me about. What I don't understand is a person joined one day and gets shot like a target on a gun shop wall. I have owned shepherds about 35 years so don't bother telling me what titles are. I put a link to all titles on one topic or another.
I knew my dog, I knew what she could handle and you'll *never* own half of what she was; so believe the black/white breeder who is so obviously a liar perhaps those pics aren't even shepherds, maybe lab mixes or something but you want to glorify it go ahead make a trophy for the "cattle herding" dog. I'll discontinue reading the fake over here, _cattle herding,_ as if.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> You can believe the black/white breeder ...


This is what David is telling you....

The black/white breeder DOES NOT EXIST. That was a troll that made up a story fully designed to trigger people so she got attention. 

Since this person was banned within hours, the probability that this person is a repeat offender with mental issues and to much time on its hands. But the litter posted does not exist. The herding titles never happened. There is no mentor breeder. 

The whole story is fiction.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I don't recognize a difference between what her dog did and what mine did. Maybe you see one I don't. There is no explanation as to HOW her dog herded. In the pure German way? Tagging along behind the cows? Follow her on the horse? What? How?
> In this section of her post she refers to the lineage of the dogs but for the *male being SAR the only real title if he has one* and litter mates 'have worked as well' in what?
> Her (dam) *lines* include: whatever, because the lines are not titles of her specific dog. So the 7 people asking about pedigree never really got answered.
> 
> ...


_ 
Facetious post. U don't get_.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Because I only mention her first time herding you're making fun of me/her? She also "tried" herding a HUGE pig that was loose in a graveyard. He lived in a cement structure and wasn't able to dig. So first thing he does in the graveyard is knock over headstones and dig as much as possible throwing dirt all over. Pigs are not intimidated by a dog. She tried, she barked and nipped his butt but he was way too happy rolling in the soil.
> She was a natural herder. So you can pick on me and put her down all you want and I do not care at all. I know how intelligent she was and what she was capable of and you will never know. She was the smartest dog I ever owned and I owned over 10 GSDs. You can believe the black/white breeder (?) with no proof; over my dog. Do. Not. Care.


Proof of what???? Your no different then the OP. She said her dog does this and that as you did about your dog. No one is making fun of anything. Where’s your proof as well as the OP. Your word or the OP is not proof. You obviously have no titles in herding but say your dog can herd. If you had a title bam.... that’s the proof as well as the OP


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> _Well as I am understanding what you call titles, if a dog does some work herding that's considered a title._ <---big shot black/white breeder.
> I had a female back in 2006 or so and needed her to herd a bull into a pen. A cop and I held out our arms to stop the bull from getting into the road yet into the corral. I put the dog behind the bull (never trained for herding but I told the cop shepHERD so she should do it.) He was doubtful but I put her in a stay behind the bull, we raised our arms and not knowing anything about a command I told her to get the bull. She barked and chased him between us and the corral right into the corral. _Qualifies as herding title?_
> Also, neighbors heard gunshots one morning and their shepherd never came back from his morning whizz. The entire neighborhood had been searching for him in hunter orange but by 1pm called the PD for help. I took the same dog out and unleashed her saying find the dog. He was only 5 or 600 feet from his house, tail tucked and shot dead by a hunter who finding he shot a dog ran home like a baby on his ATV. My dog stopped, stood over the dog and nudged him. That's how I found him. She was never taught to alert. People had probably gone past him all morning. She also found a lost mini poodle; a dog across a pond I refused to let her go into cuz I had to follow her but later the dog after 3 days returned home. _SAR? Once was asked to help find a child and her dog but her dog led her to volunteers.
> I've had dogs do some amazing things without any training so I can say she had those titles cuz she performed to perfection. Right?_
> I never had time to formally train with a club and there were no clubs where I lived anyway. The CGC was in another state and years later. I have owned I think 10 shepherds, fostered for rescues, volunteered at shelters, raised a few litters of kittens (nightmare). So it's fine you don't acknowledge CGC as a title, I've had shepherds working in the field without any formal training.


_ *facetious, eventually you'll catch on.*_


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is nothing special about a Shepherd having herding instincts or to be attracted to livestock. Herding instincts are the foundation of work venues.


So you do need the instinct to go forward with the foundation. Is that what you meant because your above comment sounds contradicting


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> But then why support fake breeder?? Her "fake titles" are all you need to support her fake cattle herding dog.


Are you related to berno by any chance?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> So you do need the instinct to go forward with the foundation. Is that what you meant
> because your above comment sounds contradicting


My comment was made with the expectation that a sheep herding dog should have high prey drive as a genetic breed trait and it is that prey drive that is tapped into for other work venues.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Proof of what???? Your no different then the OP. She said her dog does this and that as you did about your dog. No one is making fun of anything. Where’s your proof as well as the OP. Your word or the OP is not proof. You obviously have no titles in herding but say your dog can herd. If you had a title bam.... that’s the proof as well as the OP


Ding! Ding! Ding! We got a winner!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I've had several dogs that worked cattle. And a couple that worked horses, which is exceptional. 
My Sabi girl would nightly bring in the chickens, and the kids if need be. Herding instinct should always be present. 
But those instincts are not enough on their own to call a dog a herder.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> I've had several dogs that worked cattle. And a couple that worked horses, which is exceptional.
> My Sabi girl would nightly bring in the chickens, and the kids if need be. Herding instinct should always be present.
> But those instincts are not enough on their own to call a dog a herder.


I took Ozzy for his HIC he did great but it’s not a title it’s just to see if he has the instinct to herd nothing more. Plus it was fun to watch him


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)




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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Just for my own curiosity, how can you figure out that someone is "fake"... ??


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Just for my own curiosity, how can you figure out that someone is "fake"... ??


I can't figure that out either. So I focus on putting best information for future readers. 
Personally, I think we have a few newer members that, if not fake, simply thrive on drama and controversy. But I'm bored, so I'll play! Lol.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

RE: Duplicate accounts - when someone is warned repeatedly and the account is banned, attempts by that same person to sneak back on with a new user name (or, in this person's case, _seven_.....) are flagged. Nothing is real-time-lightning-fast, sometimes it takes a while, but the latest software update is more sophisticated than it used to be with regard to duplicate IP tracking.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> RE: Duplicate accounts - when someone is warned repeatedly and the account is banned, attempts by that same person to sneak back on with a new user name (or, in this person's case, _seven_.....) are flagged. Nothing is real-time-lightning-fast, sometimes it takes a while, but the latest software update is more sophisticated than it used to be with regard to duplicate IP tracking.


😮 7!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> 😮 7!


People have no idea


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> People have no idea





David Winners said:


> People have no idea


Barring anger management issues and insanity, maybe time to rethink permabans.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

may we safely assume multi account IP's get banned? the idea that I might be carrying on a conversation with multiple personalities dwelling in the same head here is really freaking me out...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's right in the rules already.









Board Rules


We realized that the board rules were no longer posted at the top of each forum so am posting them again. ADMIN Board Rules Considering the real-time nature of this Web Board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> may we safely assume multi account IP's get banned? the idea that I might be carrying on a conversation with multiple personalities dwelling in the same head here is really freaking me out...


Shhh! I think those voices are only in your head! 

How many days does it take for you to charge up a camera battery? Still waiting but not holding my breath. 😷


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey! Those voices said they only talked to me!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I’m a little late to the party here, but saying a dog “deserves” a title and EARNING a title are two different things. My friends and I think Scarlet definitely deserves to be an AKC champion. She has several Best of Breeds. She’s placed in the herding group. However, until I get her back out there to some dog shows, and earn the rest of her points under at least 3 other judges, my dog can’t claim that title.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Shhh! I think those voices are only in your head!
> 
> How many days does it take for you to charge up a camera battery? Still waiting but not holding my breath. 😷


That reminds me. I need to shoot video tonight 😁


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I'm sure Ulf would agree.


Ulf bred Fiona to a dog from Vom Eichenluft Kennels Brix son of Eagle. I got my 11 yr old directly from Ulf from that litter. The black in my pic.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Doesn't look like he produced very well from the OFA database and number of litters.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

*The support for a non person who probably showed you her lab pups.* ALL positive for her most negative for me because I tried revealing how it looks to me when accepting make believe as REAL titles. I only compared the make believe to REAL LIFE and get shot down. You make fun of my dogs accomplishments while vilifying a liar.
Liar was supported below. I’m omitting names for obvious reasons.

Seems like you answered all the questions. I'm unclear why anyone is having issues with this. Breeders get recommended on here that do far less. You had provided for the pups before they were even born which is awesome and since they will be family you will get good feedback on what your girl has produced.
So can we have more pics of puppy feet?"

those pups are ADORABLE and you're doing a great job with the litter as far as I'm concerned you're doing everything right for the pups, the breeding, and your girl. Keep the puppy spam coming

Those puppies are so cute!! I was wondering, how did you find a mentor? I want to breed dogs in the future, but I'm a bit unsure of how to find a mentor.

Herding pictures! We need herding pictures too!

If you had led with your dogs’ work experience, you would not have been questioned. Many of us would love to use our dogs for herding but don’t have the opportunity. You probably already have homes lined up.

Please understand we get brand new members who have a male and a female and decide to mate them because they are cute, or good pets, or passed a beginning obedience class. We tend to discourage breeding as a whole unless someone really knows what they are doing. It sounds like you do.

t sounds like you’re going to produce some very biddable dogs. I don’t know how anyone can talk down on dogs that go out and earn their living.

The pups are well bred with excellent pedigree. It’s not a DQ.
The OP has pups placed already and has done a lot more then BYB do as well as some upper class breeders do.
Also her dog IS a GSD. I would like to see pedigree on sire and dam though.

Assuming this is legit. Working, actual working dogs, are generally considered equivalent of titles. And for some education, herding and obedience are titles.
CGC is not.

Sire is a working SAR dog, and assists with search and rescue of missing people. His line is titled in protection, and littermates are working in narc detection. Dam has titles in basics. Herding, and a stupid amount of obedience, and before this breeding, a brief foray into dock diving. Her lines also include herding, protection, service dogs, and two work with ICE at border checks. I’m mainly into herding as an active working dog.

]WOW somebody definitely did more homework then most of us-good for you

*FOR ME! *A real live person who was poking fun to responses about: no one in particular who is gone.
Your dog did not herd anything it chased another animal. My dog does that daily. It's not herding, it's chasing. And finding other dogs is sort of what they do. Now personally I believe my dog is a super star and should be honored and adored by all, because she is the greatest dg ever! That is why titles are obtained by putting you and your dog under scrutiny by someone else who is qualified to make such a decision based on their experience and hard work.

Titling a dog, or certifying, means that your dogs training and ability to put that training to use have been seen and assessed by an unbiased third party. I am not personally keen on protection sports but tracking, obedience and herding titles are all very indicative of what a well bred GSD should be.

*35+ yrs owning multiple German shepherds, taking in rescues and pups too ill to be adoptable, fostering for GSD rescues, volunteering at shelters in 2 states for many years, watching Schutzhund trials, and protection class. I never wanted to breed so I didn’t do any breed titles cuz I was too busy with my packs-OB training, rescuing and volunteering. Ever hear of BigDogPile? RIP my friend. Now I'm done.*


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Doesn't look like he produced very well from the OFA database and number of litters.


 He teaches herding and kept my pup as breeders choice. He wouldn't call himself a breeder. Like I said he trained Brix herding in exchange for a litter. PERIOD.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> *The support for a non person who probably showed you her lab pups.* ALL positive for her most negative for me because I tried revealing how it looks to me when accepting make believe as REAL titles. I only compared the make believe to REAL LIFE and get shot down. You make fun of my dogs accomplishments while vilifying a liar.
> Liar was supported below. I’m omitting names for obvious reasons.
> 
> Seems like you answered all the questions. I'm unclear why anyone is having issues with this. Breeders get recommended on here that do far less. You had provided for the pups before they were even born which is awesome and since they will be family you will get good feedback on what your girl has produced.
> ...


Have you titled any dogs in OB, Herding and Tracking???


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





K9WolfAlpha said:


> I never in my life want to breed my dog so why pay and spend every Sat for months on end to get a title I never needed? My female deserved a title and she wasn't "chasing" an animal. What dog in its right mind would, for no reason, chase a 1 ton grazing beast? The bull was grazing and not paying attention to the dog, nor was he running anywhere, she had to get his attention FIRST by herself. _Chasing an animal_, LOL.
> So you believe the person who bread a white to a black and you never saw a pedigree or title yet you'd prefer defending a banned breeder outside the standards rather than a curious question oriented person correct?
> 
> BTW my male got his CGC after a yr old. Is some one degrading a title on a dog? Cuz I had no intention of breeding him and he EARNED THE TITLE.


Let’s go over some things. I talked about long coats being perfectly acceptable to me provided they had the right temperament, structure, and drives to do the things I like to do with my dogs. The same does apply to white shepherds as well. Aside from the breed specific national events, any dog may compete in schutzhund in the United States, regardless of breed or registration status. So long as they meet the other requirements like previous scores, they can compete. That is in the USCA, FCI, GSDCA, DVG, and every other rule book on the sport I have read. White German shepherds can be registered with the AKC, so any event I want to compete in, they are eligible to. So please, I would love to hear why a white German shepherd would not be perfectly acceptable to me. You wonder why you haven’t gotten a warm welcome, you’ve come on here and insulted people. I don’t train my dog in shutzhund for breeding. I train my dog every Saturday, and Sunday through Friday for that matter, because I love working with my dogs. I love being with my dogs. I love building them up to a high level. I love pushing them to see what they are capable of. I love the grind. My dogs enjoy it as well. Clearly you don’t understand the joy in a dog when they come out the kennel and know they are about to do something they love. My dog won’t leave me alone when he knows it’s time to work. I love seeing dogs work. I love comparing training methods and results. Maybe if you actually got out and did something with your dogs you would understand. There’s more to dogs than showerings.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Point of interest - at the GSDCA National, in quite a few of the performance venues, there are special awards for High Scoring White.

The trophy goes unawarded if no dog qualifies for it, but it is a legitimate award stated on the premium and given - if a dog shows up, and does the work.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> He teaches herding and kept my pup as breeders choice. He wouldn't call himself a breeder. Like I said he trained Brix herding in exchange for a litter. PERIOD.


lol I know who Ulf is. And I know who Molly is. That doesn't change the fact that it appears Brix didn't produce very well. I'm sure I can ask Molly for details.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

WIBackpacker said:


> Point of interest - at the GSDCA National, in quite a few of the performance venues, there are special awards for High Scoring White.
> 
> The trophy goes unawarded if no dog qualifies for it, but it is a legitimate award stated on the premium and given - if a dog shows up, and does the work.


My question on this becomes why? Should there be special awards for high scoring bicolor? High scoring sable? Just doesn’t make sense in my brain...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

It goes back to some controversy when a white female (Zephyr's Adelaide Princess) won Obedience Victrix. All Victor/Victrix awards - herding, agility, obedience, etc are a really big deal, for those of us that place value on this as our parent club. The fallout was long and complicated and resulted in white dogs being ineligible for Victor/Victrix, but there are separate awards within PERFORMANCE venues that they are eligible for. Not conformation. I think we have a long thread on it somewhere here. 

It’s controversial, depending on who you talk to, but it is a fact that it is currently offered.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> lol I know who Ulf is. And I know who Molly is. That doesn't change the fact that it appears Brix didn't produce very well. I'm sure I can ask Molly for details.
> 
> View attachment 562050


I gotta steal that meme!


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

WIBackpacker said:


> It goes back to some controversy when a white female (Zephyr's Adelaide Princess) won Obedience Victrix. All Victor/Victrix awards - herding, agility, obedience, etc are a really big deal, for those of us that place value on this as our parent club. The fallout was long and complicated and resulted in white dogs being ineligible for Victor/Victrix, but there are separate awards within PERFORMANCE venues that they are eligible for. Not conformation. I think we have a long thread on it somewhere here.
> 
> It’s controversial, depending on who you talk to, but it is a fact that it is currently offered.


Ahh. Gotcha. I have no idea about that venue. Thanks for the info


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

No prob! It’s kind of an unusual matter, and it stirs up some strong opinions.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I had to stop and think for a sec, couldn't remember how old I was.

*35+ yrs owning multiple German shepherds, taking in rescues and pups too ill to be adoptable, fostering for GSD rescues, volunteering at shelters in 2 states for many years, watching Schutzhund trials, and protection class. I never wanted to breed so I didn’t do any breed titles cuz I was too busy with my packs-OB training, rescuing and volunteering. Ever hear of BigDogPile? RIP my friend. Now I'm done.* 

Titled my first obedience dog at 15. She was a GSD. Titled second one at 19, not a GSD. Title was subsequently revoked when his registration proved bogus, not my fault or the dogs. We did the work. 
Spent years as a rehab foster for unadoptable dogs, in between running all over the continent working as a ranch hand and a wrangler for various outfitters. Got a solid taste of real working dogs, and developed a bit of a thing for herders. Spent some time as a research assistant for a wildlife biologist tramping about watching wolves.
Got a job as a dog handler with a local security company, worked my tail off, hung out in some bad neighborhoods, drove around lots talking to my partner. Fostered a bunch more recycled dogs for local rescues and shelters. Got bit lots. Lived with a bunch of patrol dogs. Raised some litters.
Got Sabi, changed my life forever, certified her to do protection. Got the Big Idiot aka Bud, got bit some more, started training him, almost killed a decoy, stopped training him. Started a GSD rescue. Certified Sabs for detection, certified Sabs for search/tracking, flew around in some helicopters, hung out in some railyards, sang Christmas songs in the truck, got stabbed some. Retired Sabi, retired me, fostered a bunch of dogs. Got Shadow, got really poor, got a new career, lost Sabi, lost Bud, lost my mind. Got hurt, threw everything out, took Shadow on a road trip and became homeless.

No wonder I'm always tired.

Thirty five years of dogs. At no point in all that time until the day Bud died did I have less then two. I have handled al sorts of dogs in all sorts of things. My personal thing has always been working dogs. I like them. I've studied them. I've trained them. I have had literally hundreds of dogs in my life, some good and some not so much. I have dealt with owners, breeders, bleeding hearts and losers.

AT NO POINT have I ever, ever told anyone, or even suggested, that their dog should have been culled. Not Ever! Not for any reason, not with any provocation. 
Whether or not the OP was a fraud we now have a comment, several actually on an open and searchable forum that suggests that some dogs should be culled based on color, and are less worthy based on appearance, not ability. 
If you object to people commenting on your dog, might I suggest you don't demean others.
Further to that all any of us have commented on is that an instinct or action does not prove an ability. And in 4 days you have not once been anything but argumentative and negative. 
I work hard at being polite. Most people don't like me. I'm sort of ok with it. Why would I pull punches for someone who insists on being nasty and provoking arguments?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Oh the humanity.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Doesn't look like he produced very well from the OFA database and number of litters.


You're taking on the top herding trainer in the country. Hope that makes you feel big and tall. WHY? 
*Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training - White ...*
whitecloversheepfarm.com › sh-faq

Ulf Kintzel is a true _Shepherd_ from _Germany_. He offers sheep _herding_ lessons of a special kind called tending on his farm named White Clover Sheep Farm.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

> AT NO POINT have I ever, ever told anyone, or even suggested, that their dog should have been culled. Not Ever! Not for any reason, not with any provocation.


Go back and read it for real this time. I said OLD TIME BREEDERS USED TO KILL WHITES. OLD TIME are you that old? Did I tell anyone to kill a puppy? What is really wrong with you argumentative people on here?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> lol I know who Ulf is. And I know who Molly is. That doesn't change the fact that it appears Brix didn't produce very well. I'm sure I can ask Molly for details.
> 
> View attachment 562050


why? Who cares besides you?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What did I miss? Nowhere did I see Jax08 say anything negative about Ulf.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Have you titled any dogs in OB, Herding and Tracking???


WHY ON EARTH DO YOU CARE??? another notch in your belt?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nscullin said:


> My question on this becomes why? Should there be special awards for high scoring bicolor? High scoring sable? Just doesn’t make sense in my brain...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe because it's a minority? We compete at ASCA a bit and they always have a high scoring other breed award. Which my WHITE GSD has a whole rack full of.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nscullin said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love that! The look on his face is priceless.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Ever hear of BigDogPile?


I hear "bernodoodles" leave pretty BigDogPiles lol.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> the idea that I might be carrying on a conversation with multiple personalities dwelling in the same head here is really freaking me out...


"manofman" says you breed freaks.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm just going to leave a link here. Most actual breed enthusiasts are really familiar with where this is going. It's pretty common knowledge. Lol. 




__





LENE VOM SPARWASSER » Pedigree database German Shepherd Dog;


International pedigree database, международная база собак, Databases of all dogs breeds, kennels catalog, каталог питомников, puppies for sale, щенки на продажу.




www.dogsfiles.com





Have a real good look at the offspring listed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

__





Berno von der Seewiese


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Berno von der Seewiese




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What did I miss? Nowhere did I see Jax08 say anything negative about Ulf.


LOL I didn't. I didn't say anything about anything other than it didn't look like the male (which alphaboy brought up to begin with) produced well. It happens. Some dogs do not produce themselves. It's not really anything to get excited about. Unless you are a manic, crazy, person who is on the board for drama. 

But now I'm curious about Molly's dog so I'll shoot her message.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> You're taking on the top herding trainer in the country. Hope that makes you feel big and tall. WHY?
> *Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training - White ...*
> whitecloversheepfarm.com › sh-faq
> 
> Ulf Kintzel is a true _Shepherd_ from _Germany_. He offers sheep _herding_ lessons of a special kind called tending on his farm named White Clover Sheep Farm.


You need Yoga. All that anger is not good for your soul. Or your heart.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Stop with the personal attacks.

Last warning.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

*Ladies and Gentlemen please stop the mud slinging and stick to sharing facts, experiences, and knowlege. It's possible to vehemently disagree without personal insults. Last warning*


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Making up fake accounts to tell fake stories to stir the pot for their own entertainment is most certainly creepy.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

jakubnovotny said:


> I hear "bernodoodles" leave pretty BigDogPiles lol.


Mean comment. You know nothing about her: 








A Sad Goodbye


A SAD GOODBYE To a Rescuer With a Huge Heart I last saw her mid-May and had no idea it would be the last time. Another rescuer and I drove a dog to her house that was too difficult to place in most homes. Mary Sanderson, a long-time GSRNE member and supporter, also ran her own rescue...




www.germanshepherds.com




And oddly those comments came from THIS forum.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> Making up fake accounts to tell fake stories to stir the pot for their own entertainment is most certainly creepy.


Everybody needs a hobby. Lol.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I've just been informed nobody under age 40 uses a real ip? something about yanks watching netflicks australia?

as for white gsd, the more diverse a population is, the better. I've seen gsd x dsd throwback to a white or two.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ALL GSDs are going to go back to white. That's why the argument always amuses me.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I've just been informed nobody under age 40 uses a real ip? something about watching netflicks in australia?


Netflix Canada sucks so people use things to mask IP. 
But when I was bouncing around we ran into an issue with me using public/hotel access.
Multiple accounts coming up.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I am ABSOLUTELY not making fun of your dog in any way. Natural herding instincts are awesome!
> 
> I am pointing out that a single event, or 10, does not make a working title, and insinuating that it should is denigrating to everyone that puts in the time, effort and expense to earn said titles.


Then I'm confused about why someone said that because fake poster told you without proof, her dog herded cattle, someone said it was EQUAL to having a title. And? Why?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> ALL GSDs are going to go back to white. That's why the argument always amuses me.


 not quite sure who that old white was? pg 123, abb. 122: Der deutsche Schäferhund in Wort und Bild : Stephanitz, Max von, 1863- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

the notion that any dog might "full grip" at maturity without any puppy bite training is utterly preposterous. Hence the invention of countless "bite developement" puppy gadgets such as jute pillows, wedges, etc. This is not to suggest a naturally protective gsd "can't" bite effectively without training.

Simply stated, failure of a naturally protective dog to grip well at maturity is most often the fault of the trainer (or rather, the lack thereof) so don't blame the dog. Neither would it be realistic to expect a 7ft tall human who's _never even seen a ball_ to "just naturally" walk through the door and dominate the nba on day 1. 

practice makes perfect


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

For the last time, I hope, a dog who works every day is different from a dog showing a normal behavior or indications of one.
Most of the ranch dogs I worked with weren't even purebred but they worked.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Then I'm confused about why someone said that because fake poster told you without proof, her dog herded cattle, someone said it was EQUAL to having a title. And? Why?


I didn't say that. You see how this works? You can't attribute comments that a different person made to me.

I also can't speak for everyone in this thread. Just myself.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

once upon a time sv _auto awarded_ HGH title to any working sheepdog, because nobody engaged in commercial wool production can afford to feed a dog that doesn't earn it's keep. Always been a hardscrabble industry, perhaps moreso now than ever?

"_In Germany, the market for wool has unfortunately become marginal because sheep are mainly used for landscape maintenance rather than meat production. There are fewer and fewer breeders. Transhumance will certainly disappear under the combined effect of human activity, the expansion of urban areas and increasing infrastructure_." linky


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

maybe ot, maybe not, but I'm currently, albeit casually, exploring the idea of scoring some extra locally adapted ewe lambs on the cheap and exposing them to merino sires. Don't know how much of it is "hype" or not, but some say major exodus from urban/suburban epicenters, major uptic in homeschooling, major "back to the land" movement, etc. Meanwhile few producers are expected to endure the current economy, and 4H/FFA ranks are expected to swell. If so, I'll call it fairly typical. Not much else for city refugees to do out in the country but dabble in backyard livestock until the kids head off to university.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Then I'm confused about why someone said that because fake poster told you without proof, her dog herded cattle, someone said it was EQUAL to having a title. And? Why?


Is your issue here that the poster was taken at their word without being fact checked? I don’t know why I would do that if I wasn’t buying one of the puppies. I do believe they were also asked for pictures of them herding.


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