# BLACK German show line



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've seen people ask about German show lines in colors/patterns other than black and red. There are some successful, well-known sable German show line dogs (mostly Arlett dogs and Timo Berrekasten and his progeny like Margman Torsten) and I've found a blanket black (sable in the pedigree), but never bi-color or black. Then I saw this ad on PDB and this looks like the closest west German show line solid black I've ever seen/found. The pedigree is very heavy show lines the first several generations but I think this dog is Russian so I'm not really familiar with them. If you read the comments there is some dispute over the accuracy of the pedigree. **Please do not critique the dog as it is not mine and that's not why I'm posting this** I just found it interesting to finally find a black German show line type dog. Hopefully it's OK to share this example since this was a posted advertisement on a public site:

Stud Dog Young Showline!!! - German shepherd dog
12 V(ZIGER UA 2009) Vogerland Shaytan pedigree information


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

If you chase the sire's line back far enough, you'll run into DDR dogs.
And the dam's side is missing enough information, that such a thing seems plausible, if not very uncommon. 

Cool looking dog, either way.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Wow that dog is gorgeous!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

If I'm not mistaken, a German Show Line breeder on the west coast (Gruenenfeld?) also has a separate line of black German Show lines, or at least used to, bred under a different kennel name.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> If I'm not mistaken, a German Show Line breeder on the west coast (Gruenenfeld?) also has a separate line of black German Show lines, or at least used to, bred under a different kennel name.


I think vom Schwarze Hunde?

Sire pedigrees, can't tell offhand which are working and which are show
Black and Bi colorGerman Shepherd Sires


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

He is very beautiful and looks like a fun dog to be around (from the pics).

Off-topic. Video clip on VOGERLAND SHAYTAN - ??????????? . What is the dog doing by circling the helper? Is it supposed to be this way?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

NO! lol I could say more but...since it's not my dog I don't want to critique.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Ok  It's just the dog was doing this consistently so it seemed that it was a trained behaviour, like a new special exercise or something 

ETA I think he tried to do a finish. And he played with the helper. It was cute


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

On Schwarze Hunde-

Zarry (and his son Yerik) are very thick on DDR lines. 

The dog Ibo has Blacky von Neuen Lande in his pedigree, so he's obviously off of working lines as well.

Based on that, I wager to say none of those dogs are showline... at least not predominately.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

GSD07 said:


> Ok  It's just the dog was doing this consistently so it seemed that it was a trained behaviour, like a new special exercise or something
> 
> ETA I think he tried to do a finish. And he played with the helper. It was cute


 
No, not trying to do a finish, or a trained behavior, or cute playing with the helper. There is no *good* reason, training or temperament wise, for a dog to do that behavior. I'll just leave it at that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSD07 said:


> Ok  It's just the dog was doing this consistently so it seemed that it was a trained behaviour, like a new special exercise or something
> 
> ETA I think he tried to do a finish. And he played with the helper. It was cute


All I will say is that if my dog ever did that even in training I'd be embarrassed to ever bring him out again (and I'm "into" show line dogs so that is only based on the video, I'm not a show line hater looking for reasons).

Let's just say that the standards for Koerungs, especially in some countries, are unbelievably low.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

atravis said:


> On Schwarze Hunde-
> 
> Zarry (and his son Yerik) are very thick on DDR lines.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's kinda what I thought (working lines). There are many working lines that do show and get a V-rating and KKL1 but they are still black working line dogs. The dog in the ad is so far the closest thing I've found to a show line black dog (and looks like it too...not really my taste as far as conformation but looks quite type-y German show line even with the working line and unknown dogs back in the pedigree).


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

GSD07 said:


> He is very beautiful and looks like a fun dog to be around (from the pics).
> 
> Off-topic. Video clip on VOGERLAND SHAYTAN - ??????????? . What is the dog doing by circling the helper? Is it supposed to be this way?



Did the owner really publish _this _video on a page advertising the dog? Thats scary/sad.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yes, they did! That's why I was puzzled! I've never seen something like this before  

To me it looked as the dog was goofing around, not knowing what he had to do, and ignoring the handler completely.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I am by no means qualified to make the following statement, however I just have to. I wasn't impressed by the handler either. When she slid down to her knees, diet coke went up through my nose. It is *EXACTLY* something I would do. Especially wearing white pants. 

Note to self: If you ever make it into the dog show pen, never wear white pants.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

GSD07 said:


> To me it looked as the dog was goofing around, not knowing what he had to do, and ignoring the handler completely.


He wasn't just goofing around. All dogs goof around sometimes, and even in trials dogs will sometimes be dogs and just goof around. But, this dog was showing avoidance, though mainly of the handler. For a supposedly titled dog, in a *very* easy, relatively pressure free "performance test" that is just completely unacceptable.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

What a nice looking dog.  

I don't think I want to see the video, lol.


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

Beautiful dog wow!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Chris, thank you for the explanation! I did not recognize that the dog was showing avoidance, it's really interesting and educational to watch (for me, since I do not have SchH experience).


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I didn't think the dog was that bad. The helper came at the dog more than they do at lots of breed surveys and he actually hit the dog. The dog hits back on the stick hits and shows some willingness to fight with the helper. The dog also came into the helper with some power, unlike dogs in other videos that barely bite when the helper is basically back pedaling. 
That circling behavior, IMO, is simply what a dog not completely trained would do. I have seen LOTS of people over the years allow their dogs to do that behavior and then make things much worse with their handling...like in this video. The handler following the dog around the helper only made it worse. The dog was avoiding HER more than the helper if you ask me. It is more a training/handling issue than a temperament one in my opinion ........based on a two minute video.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

Anne that's what I got mostly too. A less than totally strong dog with poor training and a incompetent handler. To me it told more about the kennel that would put that kind of performance in an advertisement for one of their dogs than it did that dog itself. I mean if I am looking for advertising copy I will use the _best_ video of my dog working that I can find. If that is his best.................


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wildtim said:


> Anne that's what I got mostly too. A less than totally strong dog with poor training and a incompetent handler. To me it told more about the kennel that would put that kind of performance in an advertisement for one of their dogs than it did that dog itself. I mean if I am looking for advertising copy I will use the _best_ video of my dog working that I can find. If that is his best.................


Kind of off topic, but this is so typical of show kennels/owners. They argue up and down that their dogs are every bit as good as working lines, but based on the pictures and videos used to advertised the dogs you seriously wonder if they would know good work if it slapped them in the face. It is really embarrassing, I think. People post videos of the "courage tests" at the Sieger show fishing for compliments and when they get an honest critique, out come all these excuses like the helper sucked, the dog is young, bla bla bla cry me a frickin river, this only happens once a YEAR and ALL the dog has to do is bite someone out of a blind and do a long bite, both with a ridiculously low standard for obedience. I saw an ad of someone "working" his dogs, two at once, well one was grabbing the very end of the sleeve with front teeth, the second dog was just standing there, and the owner appeared to be laughing. I guess dogs nipping at a sleeve and an owner has no clue about training or helper work is supposed to instill confidence in me that these are "real working dogs". :crazy:


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Anne, I learn so much from your posts. Your observations often remind me of Rafiki from the Lion King who commanded Simba to 'Loook Deeeper...' I'm not sure you even *try* to think outside the box. It simply seems to be a defining part of you.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

That was the point Ocean was making in the Fat Lady thread. The training and of course, the understanding of the dogs is lacking in the people. Until that changes, I am not holding out hope for the show lines and I have serious concerns about the working lines as well for the same reasons. People do not seem to know what they are looking at nowadays, ( and think it is not necessary), and that is the most important part of the training, understanding the dog and how to use the genetic traits in that dog.

Some of these dogs could look much better than they do if the people who handled them really cared to learn about that side of things. The helper work is also a problem because I think there is a tendency to play with these dogs trying to mimic what looks like protection vs working them in a way that brings out some aggression or utilizes any protective instinct that exists. I have worked a few show line dogs that bark very well in the beginning, ( because they are not looking at it like a game), but are less than committed in the biting. That seems to be the issue for these dogs but playing with them only makes for performances like the one in the video. The helper work , ( with the dogs I am talking about,) needed to be more serious where when the dog bites, he understands that he had better bite hard. It is a bit more pressure type work. If you work them on the surface and do not get enough inside , you again, get the performance on the video. Of course, there are dogs who cannot handle that kind of work but isn't that the point of SchH? To see who the dog is? I am not talking about blowing dogs away either, I am simply saying, look hard enough to SEE what you have. You can adjust the training to be more fair to whoever the dog is but you should at least know who you are training. Most people do not and that, for me, is a big problem for the breed.

SchH has shifted to where there is way too much emphasis placed on the "prey object" and that method, (while the basics of it will almost always apply), needs to be adjusted to each individual dog. The working line trainers are making the same mistake in that they do training that they "think" is bringing out aggression but is simply making the dog a super charged sleeve junkie. People are starting the dogs too much with just giving bites and giving them when the dog hasn't put out enough effort. Mostly, what I see show dog people doing is re-enforcing dogs working at 30 % of their ability with a grip reward. They teach the dog to work at this level, mostly, because they don't know any better . I used to train with a big show line breeder and he simply did not believe his dogs could handle it. Some of them could have but he would not allow work that showed any type of threat to the dog. The dogs have to see it and work thru it to be able to deal with it at an optimum level but he had "other ways" to get the dog through a trial.

This is my complaint about all of it now. The titles are being used to market the dogs and that is the main purpose. There are very few people who actually understand the dogs or how to train them, yet claim that showing or working in SchH makes them a good breeder. No, it doesn't, not when you do not understand how the genetic traits in the breed are used in the training. That is the whole purpose of having those genetics in the dog.....to be utilized in the training...but if you don't know how to utilize those traits, how are you better than someone who doesn't title? Just like everything, there is a instant gratification factor in dog breeding. It is about looking at who the people are and much less about the dogs now. I find it all very sad because some of what is being lost will not be recoverable and that includes the knowledge in the people . There are not many of those people left now . People are flocking to the point pushers and are simply paying people to title their dogs vs taking the time necessary to learn about them. It really was not supposed to be this way but I do realize there is not much little ol' me can do about it. I am completely outnumbered.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Vandal said:


> I didn't think the dog was that bad. The helper came at the dog more than they do at lots of breed surveys and he actually hit the dog. The dog hits back on the stick hits and shows some willingness to fight with the helper. The dog also came into the helper with some power, unlike dogs in other videos that barely bite when the helper is basically back pedaling.
> That circling behavior, IMO, is simply what a dog not completely trained would do. I have seen LOTS of people over the years allow their dogs to do that behavior and then make things much worse with their handling...like in this video. The handler following the dog around the helper only made it worse. The dog was avoiding HER more than the helper if you ask me. It is more a training/handling issue than a temperament one in my opinion ........based on a two minute video.


I agree; poor handling/training and a lack of knowledge of the dog. 

"You breed good dogs; you don't train them". M. Heyne


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm curious Anne...Do you think it's usually the training/goals that's not well understood or the actual dog(s)?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not Anne but I see mostly show line dogs so speaking from those experiences, it's BOTH and it's not only an issue of understanding but the desire to even care. Many people do as she says, they pay someone else to "train" and title their dog. A lot of people send their dogs to someone else (like to Germany even) and that person doesn't care either, why would they? It's not their dog. They are getting paid to title the dog as fast as possible, period. Green to SchH1 in just a few months. The title is only a means to an end (getting a V rating and breeding the dog or selling it) so neither the owner nor the person being paid to train it give a rip how it's trained, how well it's trained, or whether it should even BE trained to begin with. The people doing this training are NOT the top trainers or helpers because those people have enough on their hands with their own good dogs and breeding or training programs.

Really the only thing being understood is that the dog needs to get the title to Koer and get a V rating. I can count on one hand how many show line breeders I've met that give one wit about the dog's training beyond this (or even how the dog is trained to that point as long as it gets there). I've heard some make jokes about how their dog "doesn't like to train" and some try to argue that ring training is more important than Schutzhund training. Not only do people not understand training or dogs but they simply have no reason to understand them and don't care to either. It's different from someone who really means well but is a novice and screws up a dog; it's a totally different attitude and it has become an embarrassment for the breed and anyone who fancies it, really.

It has made me super protective of ALL of my dogs, regardless of breed or line. If we are doing something new I need it broken down in detail and need to know why and how before I'm on board. No one touches them (from a training/working perspective) but me, ever, save for an instance here or there where the training director helps demonstrate some line handling for tracking or protection or something like that where I am then expected to catch on and work it out myself. Beyond that, not even my own husband does any training or handling of our dogs. I don't think I could send my dogs away for training even if both my legs got cut off and I'd never, ever in a million years ship my dog to Germany "for titles".


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Because of the poor training/handling of this dog, there is no way to judge it's genetic potential. One thing for sure, if this dog isn't wired for this type of show, no amount of poor training or handling will solve that.

I think the dog is the victim here - and that lady needs to find another hobby IMO.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow...that handler had no control at all. Makes me wonder if the dog was ever trained.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Lies wasn't making anything up about the state of the art. The problem is endemic and pervasive in the fancy. 

I would send my dog for titles to the right person though. I am not breeding so its not something I need to consider, but I have seen it work out okay. You have to KNOW who you are working with though.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Part of the reason for titles, IMO is that you have achieved something, on your own with your dog. YOU and YOUR DOG as a TEAM. To send a dog out to have titles put on just makes no sense to me. 
I'd much rather go along for the journey and hit the bumps along the way...sharing in the joy when we together achieve a goal.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you can train a dog for a good performance why couldn't you train a dog for a bad one
I don't think that the fact that they posted that video is scary or sad. I am sure that they also realized that that wasn't a perfect performance. Anyone ever had one of those? I think it is really easy for people to post performances where overalll they look good...its rare that they do the opposite and because it doesn't look good and based on this video the 1 the handler is incompetent 2 there is something wrong with the dog 3. the training was poor (Somedays I am really glad that I don't know much) And of course if Ann had been training the dog we all know that it wouldn't have happened. Maybe when these people posted the video they thought that their friends wouldn't care and the rest don't matter


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

And it is perfectly fine to wear white as long as it isn't after labour day


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> And of course if Ann had been training the dog we all know that it wouldn't have happened


 If Anne was training the dog she would not have worn white.....and.....if Anne was training the dog, yeah, that could have happened. I have fallen down in training, I have a reconstructed knee from doing just that. I have also been there when my dog did not perform the way I would have liked, just happened to me this weekend as a matter of fact . However, if I had fallen down during video taping, I might have edited that part out of the video. Unless of course, it was one of those more entertaining falls where it took a really long time to hit the dirt because I was trying too hard to stay on my feet.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I have also been there when my dog did not perform the way I would have liked, just happened to me this weekend as a matter of fact .


In what way did your dog fail to perform & why do you think it happened? I'm asking largely b/c we tend to see/hear so much about the successes of the more knowledgeable people that it's easy to forget it's not all roses & sunshine for even the best. IMO, there's a great deal to be learned even from less than ideal experiences. 

Going back to the video...I just saw it. (I can't view it at work) To me, he looked very different than the dogs in the (Siegers?) video where they're all cringing & slinking around. It hurt to watch most of those guys.

In the initial 'attack' although he appears to be fighting, even perhaps enjoying it, he never appears to be taking it terribly serious. To my eyes, it looks as though it's something of a game to him. (& perhaps there's nothing wrong with that) He doesn't look frightened or uncertain. His attitude seems to change following the interference or whatever it was from the handler. He definitely seemed to be avoiding *her* when he was circling the helper. After that & on the 2nd attack he seemed unsure of himself, hesitant & possibly as alert to her presence(opinion?) as to the helper. At the end he seems to be nibbling, nipping, chewing the sleeve as though he's unclear what he's to do with it. Perhaps he's not even sure what he wants to do with it. His focus seems to have faded badly & he seems uninterested. Although he displays considerably less confidence, he still doesn't look or act particularly fearful. He seems more uncertain how to proceed rather than unwilling.

Granted, it's a very short video, a tiny slice of time & nothing more. I'm also almost completely ignorant of SchH. I'm offering up my views only to get more experienced input as to what might be happening as opposed to what I *think* might be happening.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

What a beautiful dog!


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## GSDGenes (Mar 9, 2006)

There are some show line dogs who were saddle black and tan, not dark, who carried the gene for solid black. Vax vd Wienerau is one & another is Casar v Arminius. I did see Casar behind at least one show line in this pedigree.

Quite a few DDR dogs carry the gene for solid black. 

I didn't check the individuals who went back to unknowns, to see if the colors of the known individuals were indicated or not.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> In what way did your dog fail to perform & why do you think it happened?


Sorry, I missed this question until this thread was brought back to life. Sure I can answer this but maybe you should start another thread in the SchH section. Maybe more people will comment as well.


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