# New to Schutzhund and looking for some tips please



## Trinitys Storm

Okay so here's a short background about myself and why I want to do Schutzhund/dvg. I grew up in a AKC show home where every weekend we would travel around Florida and Georgia showing my grandmothers american cocker spaniels and my mothers german shepherds. I was hooked and knew I was going to work with dogs for the rest of my life. I became a dog groomer and met my husband grooming his yorkie. We got a house and talked about getting a large breed dog when we got a bigger place. We bought our dream property of 20 acres in the Ocala national forest and true to his word my husband finally let me get my dream dog, a solid black german shepherd bitch we named Trinity. I am now very interested in taking her all the way in schutzhund and would like to ask a few questions. 
* Do you need to join a club to compete in DVG?
* What are the routines of most clubs? I went to one today and everyone seemed to be socializing more themselves then the puppies or working their dogs, but the training director couldn't be there so maybe its different then?
* Do clubs do one on one time or is it just got out and walk the routine by yourself. If so couldn't I just do that at home? I know I need the helper for protection training of course
* Are there any recommended personal trainers around the Ocala area. Can travel an hour or so.

Thank you so much for any input. I've almost finished the book "Schutzhund:Training & Theory and am going to read Advanced Schutzhund. Any pointers or tips greatly appreciated. I am very determined to go all the way!


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## Castlemaid

Hi, and welcome to the forum! 


> * Do you need to join a club to compete in DVG?


I don't know about DVG in particular (being an IPO club in Canada, the clubs/orgazinations and requirements are different than the US), so not sure about the need to belong in a club to actually compete, but you will almost certainly need to join a club to train. This is not something that you can do on your own - the club will give you guidance on developing your puppy, starting tracking, and most importantly, will have an experienced helper to do bite-work. 



> * What are the routines of most clubs? I went to one today and everyone seemed to be socializing more themselves then the puppies or working their dogs, but the training director couldn't be there so maybe its different then?


Every club is different and has a different culture. Some are laid-back and easy going, people's goals are mostly to get out and work with their dogs and have fun with the added bonus of getting titles on the dogs, and other clubs are hard-core competitive, with the members' all working towards regional, national, world championships. 

Some clubs have very strict routines and expectations, others are more go-with-the-flow type. 



> * Do clubs do one on one time or is it just got out and walk the routine by yourself. If so couldn't I just do that at home? I know I need the helper for protection training of course


 As a newbie, the club members will work with you one-on-one to bring you along. You will be expected to do you homework too and work on certain exercises at home, but do wait for direction from the club. 
At the club, you will want to use the resource of having others around to coach you along - you'd be surprised how easy it is to make little unintended mistakes if you don't have someone watching and giving you feedback. You will also want to work with others for proofing against distractions.


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## middleofnowhere

In the US to compete in DVG you need to belong to a club. The club's training director approves you to the trial. (at least at some clubs)

Sometimes people get distracted from training and do a lot of unrelated talking. Other times they are more focused and in some clubs you will learn who to listen to, who to try to avoid (because you don't want drawn into the chat but want to watch the dogs and listen to people.) And yes when the TD is away, the troups can get a bit slack.

When someone is assisting another person with their dog - go out on the field so you can hear. If you want help, ask a person who seems to know what they are doing. It may take a while after joining a club to figure out who that is. 

There are probably some personal trainers near you. Listen at the club, ask at the club.


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## Trinitys Storm

Thank you for the replies! I kind of figured that since the TD wasn't there people were just bull****ing around. The President of the club was more in the lines of showing off her "NEW" dog from Germany and didn't really explain anything that happens besides "in the mornings we track then do obedience and protection work." Well I know that already! My husband and I were kinda twiddling our thumbs walking around with our puppy. There were very experienced people there and some were working their dogs and they looked so beautiful and graceful! I did get to talk to a couple people that are going to the malinois nationals coming up and they gave me a lot of good tips and pointers. Another thing is the trainer was supposed to come out Saturday and canceled so they did the puppy socialization and obedience sunday instead. Well he can't come next Saturday and the following Saturday the president has a band recital with her daughter so theres not going to be any training for another 2 weeks. So that would be 3 weeks in a row where the training director won't be there. If I am going to be paying my hard earned money to join a club and the directors aren't holding persistent training sessions what should I do? I tried calling all the different clubs within 2 hours of me and a couple of them recommended the club I went to and the others were just paper clubs. I'm not against chatting at all I just am very serious about titling my dog and my first experience with a club wasn't that great.


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## car2ner

You have to kinda shop around to find a good fit with a club. My hubby and I found a good fit about an hour from our house. The club meets twice a week, sometimes more before a trial. Because it is such a long drive for us we only go once a week. 

We do chat, but we also work our dogs, share advice, grumble about politics, and yes, we even pay attention to who is on the field and learn from their mistakes and successes. New folks are always encouraged to bring their dogs out on the field so that the TDs can see how the dog and the handler work out. 

If the group had wanted me to put down hard cash to evaluate our puppy, or if they had been standoffish we probably would have kept looking for another club. 

Good luck on your search and post when you find a good match for yourself. I'm sure others are looking, too.


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## martemchik

Unfortunately this is part of being in a club and not just paying a business to get what you want done. The TD is a volunteer, they do this on their own time. Rarely does anyone get paid, so when they have personal plans, they won't be there. Unfortunately for a completely new person to the sport, this is highly detrimental, where as for more advanced people, they can generally get by and do some things.

You get much cheaper training at a club than you would at an actual business, but you have to live with the fact that these things happen. On top of that, this is trialing season and it's not unheard of to have TDs missing from clubs or a lot of members going other places and training on the fields they will be trialing on.


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## Castlemaid

Well, at our club, we don't have a TD, and consider the membership fees to give a person unlimited access to our training grounds. Nobody is paid to do anything, not even the helpers (we don't even have a 'real' helper, we bring in trainers from time to time). 

Granted if I were going somewhere where membership was 3 grand a year, then yes, I would be expecting some more involvement from the club directors.


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## onyx'girl

This is trial season so often club schedules will be a bit different. And the ones trialing should get priority on the field and with helperwork. 
Even if the TD or Pres isn't going to be there, why can't some of the other members still meet up to track and do obedience? 
Unless of course, it is a private field owned by one of the heads that won't be there...liability would be a concern.
Your pup can do some scentpad work anyway, which doesn't take up space. You can do much of the foundation on your own til pup is a bit older. If there is a club member willing to work with you on the early foundation stuff, that may be best for now.


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## Trinitys Storm

That makes sense trial season is here. I know a couple people at the club were going to the malinois nationals here in florida. I'm going to check it out next time the training director is there and see how it goes.


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## GSD Rex

Will a German shepherd dog that has done the IPO/Schutzhund exams be then automatically a protection dog that will defend me of being attacked in the street by someone or if someone breaks into my house or those that require a different training for the dog?


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## middleofnowhere

Trin. S. -- One thing to keep in mind, clubs have seen many people cycle in and out quickly. Once you seem to "stick" you will get more direction and help. It takes a while, it isn't going to happen on the first visit.

Rex -- Protection is a different thing to train for beyond Schutz. One thing Schutz. would do is to give you a good obedience component before you try to get your dog through protection training.


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## GSD Rex

I want him to do the Schutzhund when he is around 6 month old. So I need a special protection training for the dog after Schutzhund to have at the end a good protection dog!? My goal would be to have such a great dog as in the videos in the future taking good care of me in case of an emergence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQFMlyCKdd4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEfPv57hWv0


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## Trinitys Storm

Middleofnowhere- I kind of got that vibe from the club president as soon as she seen me. I am young, 26, and inexperienced in schutzhund but I know dogs! My mother and grandmother showed and bred akc cocker spaniels and german shepherds for a living and brought me into the dog world. I am a pet groomer and have even been asked by a few customers to help them with their unruly dogs because they did so well for me at the groomers. I do not have a $1500 imported GSD but instead a $500 akc GSD. The litter was huge, 12, and mostly all black ones which I guess everybody wanted the traditional Black and Tan. She is a very nice bitch and she is sound conformation for schutzhund. She has tons of drive and amazing attention to me. We WILL go for titles no matter what and I'm going to have to join a club either way so I'll see how it goes once we go a couple times. Hen they'll know I'm serious.  especially when my dogs beating them in trials  jk


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## martemchik

So as a beginner you already know what good conformation and drive is for schutzhund?

This world is way different from the akc conformation ring. The fact that you've done that stuff...means very little to these people. It's actually probably a negative in most people's minds because it means your family has been breeding the ASL type of dog which have a very poor reputation among such circles.

My advice...tread lightly. Talk less, listen more. Don't try to impress people with what you've done. You're the same age as I am, and although you have dog experience, you're probably dealing with people that have been working dogs for longer than we've been alive. The more you talk around these people, the more they probably laugh at some of your opinions and things you think you know.

Don't take offense to this, but even I had a giggle at the fact what you said "sound conformation for Schutzhund" and "tons of drive." As a beginner, you probably don't really have much knowledge about either of those things right? So think of how funny that would sound to someone that has been doing it for decades?

Post your pups pedigree...I'd be interested to see what it is.


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## middleofnowhere

Yeah, approach the club with some humility. Go out and let them evaluate your dog after a few visits. Some showlines don't have it for all aspects of schutzhund.

I was welcomed but not with over enthusiasim by the true schutzhund folks at my first club. I knew the pup I was getting (or more precisely the breeder from whom I was getting a pup) and that she could do the work. I was fortunate with her in that she came out of the box with extraordinary focus which impressed some of them - as in "how did you train THAT focus??" She came with it. I just need to not screw it up. When others looked at my paperwork and my pup, they became much more interested. (my pup came from a well-respected person, known in the sport I think it surprized them that I knew the breeder). Your show line pup may or maynot have what it takes to work. I didn't go into the club bragging on my dog or who I knew in the sport or how could we were going to be. (Heck, I can screw up really fine.) A little humility seems to be better received but maybe that's just because braggarts turn me off.
So check your attitude before you go out.


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## onyx'girl

I agree with above. And even IF you don't heed that advice, you'll soon feel humbled by what you don't know. Good club members support and help one another.


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> So as a beginner you already know what good conformation and drive is for schutzhund?
> 
> This world is way different from the akc conformation ring. The fact that you've done that stuff...means very little to these people. It's actually probably a negative in most people's minds because it means your family has been breeding the ASL type of dog which have a very poor reputation among such circles.
> 
> My advice...tread lightly. Talk less, listen more. Don't try to impress people with what you've done. You're the same age as I am, and although you have dog experience, you're probably dealing with people that have been working dogs for longer than we've been alive. The more you talk around these people, the more they probably laugh at some of your opinions and things you think you know.
> 
> Don't take offense to this, but even I had a giggle at the fact what you said "sound conformation for Schutzhund" and "tons of drive." As a beginner, you probably don't really have much knowledge about either of those things right? So think of how funny that would sound to someone that has been doing it for decades?


 This. I trained with a schutzhund group for the first time this weekend. I have been trialing dogs in various sports for years, and I have GSDs. I did a LOT of sitting silently watching other dogs work and noticing how/why handlers did what they did, asking questions when it wasn't obvious to me. Didn't mention my dogs or what we've done at any point unless asked. I honestly didn't know how they would do, and both are showlines. I didn't want to make myself look like an idiot. My dogs both ended up showing that they had potential, it was nice to let the dogs talk for themselves, so to speak. 

Schutzhund is a lot different as far as drives than any other sport I've played/competed in. It was DEFINITELY humbling. I learned a lot. Keeping an open mind and realizing that you likely know jack will help make friends and advance in the sport if your dogs have the potential. 



> Post your pups pedigree...I'd be interested to see what it is.


 Don't be a pedigree jockey, Max.


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## DaniFani

I agree with the last few posts, you come off with quite a nice chip on your shoulder (at least to me), and it's possible some club members felt that (if some around here already are). 

SchH/IPO is a whole different world than AKC. Your ambitions and goals are great, but I agree with the talk less, listen more. Going "all the way" in IPO, is something dependent on much more than wanting the title. It takes a good handler (timing, balance, animation, etc), good dog (ability to take pressure, balanced decent drives, strong nerve, etc), and the ability for both to work together.

"Wanting" a title is different than "getting" a title. It's a LOT of work. Clubs tend to wait for new members to show up multiple times, put in the homework, really have a ear for listening, and work (rather than talk)...essentially, prove yourself. Plenty of people come around a couple times, do a little with their dog, and then just don't show up anymore. So the TD and member put time and energy into helping and then the person is gone. This happens all the time, leading to a lot kind of waiting to see if you'll put in what it takes.

For a lot of clubs the "evaluation" on the first day/week is more for how the handler fits in with the club than the abilities/limitations of the dog. Your disdain for the "imported dog," the comments about the president/TD, and overall judgements are kind of turn offish...the club members could have felt the same way. 

They need to choose you as much as you need to choose them, remember that. Our club will help/accept anyone with any breed, but if the handler/owner comes in and doesn't jive with us (bad attitude, judgmental of others, starts drama)...well there are lots of other clubs, maybe they'll fit in better somewhere else. 

My advice, forget mostly everything about AKC (it won't apply much to the training you will be doing in SchH), accept that you are a noob, be grateful that people with experience will help, and when you ask questions to understand things (allllways encouraged at my club, at least), it's in a kind/thoughtful manner...not "well in AKC I do this. In AKC I learned this...I think it should be done this way...I can just do this on my own.." I'm NOT saying don't ask questions to learn everything you can, I'm just saying there are kind ways of going about that.

ETA: All that being said, SchH has been one of the coolest things I've ever gotten into. I've met extraordinary people, from all over the world, made some truly best friends, and unearthed a passion I didn't even know was there. I've made connections with people that have (like martem said), been in the sport longer than I've been alive, people who've been on world teams, who've trained world teams. I've even been invited to Germany with some of them, anytime it works for me. Once you prove that you are in it and committed, you'll meet some of the coolest people. And also, I have one of those snobbish...gasp...imported shepherds. I promise you, my noob handling skills will never bring out his full potential. It isn't about the dog (especially when you're new), it's about learning as much as you can, as a team, and having a blast going as far as you can. :-D


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## mycobraracr

DaniFani said:


> They need to choose you as much as you need to choose them, remember that. Our club will help/accept anyone with any breed, but if the handler/owner comes in and doesn't jive with us (bad attitude, judgmental of others, starts drama)...well there are lots of other clubs, maybe they'll fit in better somewhere else.


^^^ this. We decide on the people joining. Not the dog. Dog's change all the time, so at the end of the day you're still left with the people. You better like them because you're going to be spending a lot of time together.


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## DJEtzel

mycobraracr said:


> ^^^ this. We decide on the people joining. Not the dog. Dog's change all the time, so at the end of the day you're still left with the people. You better like them because you're going to be spending a lot of time together.


That sounds so scary. I'm glad I visited a group before reading this or I may have never done it. lol


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## Anubis_Star

Realistically, there's usually a good amount of chatting. You can only work so many dogs at a time, and trust me, spending a good 5+ hours EVERY Sunday for the rest of your sport dog's career sitting and staring intently at other routines in silence is going to get boring....

There are more serious clubs and more laid back clubs. My club is more laid back but we still have members training for regionals and hopefully nationals. I love the atmosphere. A lot of it is self motivation, I'm there every Sunday and I probably spend and total of 15-30 minutes max working berlin with my trainer and the decoy. The rest of the time, it is up to me to get him onto the second field when it opens up and work him privately.


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## Anubis_Star

I also agree with others - AKC show line experience is really more just a negative in the sport world than anything. I'm a noob, I was a young 24 yr old female covered in tattoos. I was quiet and humble in the fact that I had no experience - and they welcomed me with open arms. My dog also amazes them, not because of the training I did because God knows, forget whatever experience I had before, ipo is night and day different from any other training I've done and it's HARD. no, they're impressed by my dog because of his breeding, his drives and temperament. Stuff I never would of been able to see because he was my first working line.

A 500$ "akc" pup likely means not the best breeding, from show lines... could still be an amazing pup, of course, but one that's probably not going to impress much right off the bat. Because dogs of those types tend to not have the drives or success.


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## mycobraracr

DJEtzel said:


> That sounds so scary. I'm glad I visited a group before reading this or I may have never done it. lol



Haha not as scary as one might think. By the time voting happens, the person had been coming for a while. This was at my old schH club. I'm at a couple pay to plays now. What I like is I still I down and visit them sometimes and work some dogs and still get along with everyone there including their new members. I think it's because of how they do things. Everyone just clicks together.


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## martemchik

A $500 akc pup means "pet lines" more than anything, or even untitled working lines. It doesn't mean show lines. Akc show lines go for much more than that.

I have a $500 akc dog and he impressed many right off the bat, the price of the dog doesn't mean anything.


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## martemchik

DJEtzel said:


> That sounds so scary. I'm glad I visited a group before reading this or I may have never done it. lol


We had a vote...you didn't make the cut...


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## Anubis_Star

martemchik said:


> A $500 akc pup means "pet lines" more than anything, or even untitled working lines. It doesn't mean show lines. Akc show lines go for much more than that.
> 
> I have a $500 akc dog and he impressed many right off the bat, the price of the dog doesn't mean anything.


The American "pet line" definitely stems from the show line pedigrees, because everyone knows and wants that black and tan dog. The price alone doesn't mean anything. The price and type described by the op along with her experience means a lot.


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## onyx'girl

I personally wouldn't even offer any info on the dog. Let the dog show what it's made of so no bias is involved. 
AKC doesn't guarantee anything, neither does price or lines. It's what is in the dog that counts. 
And when the OP said the dog had the conformation for doing the sport, I assume it means there is athleticism/agility and movement to prove the dog can actually get out there and work.


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## rkwjunior

Being a noob myself, i'm soaking up this info like a sponge. 
I'm still looking for my first dog, and looking to join a local club. But what i'm most nervous about is embarrassing myself with a dog that can't work or who's not that good at it. I'm more into the German showlines since i had one for 9 yrs prior to now, So finding a good showline that can work might be a challenge, i'm also hoping i find a club that will be very helpful and not be unwelcoming to a noobie. I live south of Boston, so if anyone knows of this type of club let me know.


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## mycobraracr

rkwjunior said:


> Being a noob myself, i'm soaking up this info like a sponge.
> I'm still looking for my first dog, and looking to join a local club. But what i'm most nervous about is embarrassing myself with a dog that can't work or who's not that good at it. I'm more into the German showlines since i had one for 9 yrs prior to now, So finding a good showline that can work might be a challenge, i'm also hoping i find a club that will be very helpful and not be unwelcoming to a noobie. I live south of Boston, so if anyone knows of this type of club let me know.



You can't worry about that. You definitely want to set yourself up for as much success as you can. Just remember, your first dog in the sport is for learning the sport. You are going to mess stuff up. It's how you learn. So just get out there and do it.


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## onyx'girl

There are breeders that have SL's that can title, and look good doing it. There are two breeders(one well known, the other up and coming) in the pay to train group I'm in that have many of their progeny working in the sport. The focus is on work and conformation, not just the conformation and color.


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## Trinitys Storm

martemchik said:


> So as a beginner you already know what good conformation and drive is for schutzhund?
> 
> This world is way different from the akc conformation ring. The fact that you've done that stuff...means very little to these people. It's actually probably a negative in most people's minds because it means your family has been breeding the ASL type of dog which have a very poor reputation among such circles.
> 
> My advice...tread lightly. Talk less, listen more. Don't try to impress people with what you've done. You're the same age as I am, and although you have dog experience, you're probably dealing with people that have been working dogs for longer than we've been alive. The more you talk around these people, the more they probably laugh at some of your opinions and things you think you know.
> 
> Don't take offense to this, but even I had a giggle at the fact what you said "sound conformation for Schutzhund" and "tons of drive." As a beginner, you probably don't really have much knowledge about either of those things right? So think of how funny that would sound to someone that has been doing it for decades?
> 
> Post your pups pedigree...I'd be interested to see what it is.


Listen I went to the club with my happy go lucky self and was very disappointed with how unorganized and unprofessional the whole thing was. First it was supposed to be Saturday but the TD canceled the night before and I got a text saying it was going to be Sunday at 8am. Well nobody came out Sunday until 8:45am and she let her puppy out that had been sitting in its own piss the whole day and night because she said she was her daughters band recital. Then she said she was too tired to wash him because she got home at 3am. That right off the bat made me weary. Then she just kinda waved me to go over to a couple people saying well there's the Vice President and whatever talk to them while she got more coffee. I was not told how their club works, membership fees, or anything in that sense about the club or schutzhund. She was more concerned about showing off her new dog from Germany then her puppy that had been soaking in pee all day and night. I have no problem with talking but if I'm new and never been in a club or know how it works then please enlighten me! 

I do know american show conformation lines and german lines. Am I the most experienced in the world? No and I never claimed to be. My puppy isn't show quality, she has a straighter topline and less angulation in her hocks plus she's all black and that's not popular in akc. And last time I checked it didn't matter what kind of dog or registry you had. That's the beauty in it is you can do it with any dog sound enough. I'm not trying to sound like a know it all I just know my dog can do schutzhund. I wouldn't even join a club seeing how that one went if I didn't have to join one to compete and if I had an experienced helper. I'd rather just pay for a personal trainer to train me and my dog. But since you have to join a club to compete then I have too. 

I wasn't trying to get offend anybody. If I want something I'm going to do everything in my power to succeed. Might sound cocky but I don't care. Like I said just bc my dog doesn't have every ancestor titled doesn't mean she couldn't do it. Just because you've never flown a plane doesn't mean you can't learn. I know schutzhund has it's own level of difficultly you just have to figure out all the working components separately then piece them together. Get the finished product, I was just looking for a little guidance

And I was in no way rude or cocky or stuck up while I was there. There was enough of that going on already.


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## onyx'girl

You do not have to join a club to compete. You have to be a member of the organization you are trialing with. There is more to 'the finished product' goal in this venue...training and trialing is ongoing, most people don't stop just because they've finished titling to a 3(unless they are titling for breeding purposes)
Most of the time, when people visit a club, they are just there to visit, and the inside skinny on dues and other info isn't always freely given. 
There may be insight into training and schedule/possible helper fees, but often the head people will feel out the visitor before offering information.
The resources are slim in this sport, so clubs can be picky and choosy on who they want to train with them. Seldom do I ever see clubs soliciting members, it is usually the other way around. Good helperwork is far and few between. The pay to train groups are dominating, and actual clubs are not that common(due to helper scarcity)


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## martemchik

I think under DVG rules you have to be part of a club in order to compete. The TD actually has to "approve" you for trialing.

But...keep up with that attitude. It will get you really far in this sport. Like Jane said, the resources are extremely limited. Even private lessons, if the helper doesn't like you, he'll make you "go away." It's not very hard to. And unfortunately, you can't just go across the street to the next one.

How do you know your dog can do it? I mean...I'm not doubting it. I think most dogs can do it. But you are super confident in the fact that your young puppy can do the sport. Not sure how someone who's never trained a dog in this venue, is so confident that the few month old puppy in front of them is perfect for the sport.

Be careful with how much you "want" something. I'm telling you, there aren't too many people around that do this and the more toes you step on, the less people will be willing to help. You'd be amazed at how quickly people will turn down money just to not deal with problems. Most people in clubs and in the sport, do it because they love it. They spend Saturday or Sunday training other people's dogs and doing helper work because they love to...not because they might make a few hundred dollars. So the moment you're not making it fun for them, they get rid of you.


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> We had a vote...you didn't make the cut...


Sooo... Apparently the helper doesn't get a say??


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## Trinitys Storm

Thank you so much everyone for the replies! I'm really starting to understand a little more about the "people" of this sport now. Seems like a take no bull**** don't want to hear your story type of people. I'm aware that akc lines are laughed at bc of their exaggerated angulation and top lines. I didn't even tell them she was akc honestly bc I've read a lot over the past few years about schutzhund and ipo and akc isn't the favorite. But that's the thing there is only so much you can read on the subject, believe me, and was really looking forward to talking to some experienced people about the sport, not band recitals and bible schools. Literally that was the topic of choice it seemed. And just because I've never physically done schutzhund myself doesn't mean I don't know a good working dog when I see one. Because that's just what they are WORKING dogs. They do it ALL, that's why I love this breed. Trin may grow up and not have the nerves or drive to be good at this sport. If she's not then I'll do obedience and get her good canine companion award. 

Either way this is all for fun. I'm learning just as much a my dog is. It is a very beautiful sport the way the dogs react to their handlers. I enjoy watching the obedience aspect of the sport just as much as the protection and am looking forward to this new adventure.


Does anybody know if you HAVE to join a club to compete in DVG?? Could I just get a personal trainer and compete just the same??


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## onyx'girl

Frequently Asked Questions


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## Trinitys Storm

onyx'girl said:


> Frequently Asked Questions


Thanks onyx'girl


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## mycobraracr

The conformation aspects of the dog have less to do with bite sports than temperament, nerve and drives.


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## Trinitys Storm

There is nothing in the FAQ that says you have to join a club to compete. I submitted my question though so hopefully they will get back to me.

I'm assuming that you would have to join a club though. That way like someone mentioned the Training Director approves you for trials and what not. 

It just doesn't seem right to me that they can pick and choose who they want in the club or not. Not saying this happens but what if there was somebody who didn't like you for any reason then they can make you "go away" as someone put it? It shouldn't have anything to do with the people but rather the dogs. If the dog was unfit to trial I could understand but if the training director didn't like a person then how is that fair? Everybody should be able to compete no matter what, even if the club members didn't like the handler and if the dog was fit. I'm not going to try to suck up and be fake because I'm afraid to get "kicked out". This is supposed to be a sport about the dogs right? Then how is it that clubs can choose what people they want in and not? I'm not the best at people skills that's why I love dogs so much. So your saying that if they don't like me then that's it for me? I can't compete in schutzhund because someone didn't like me? It doesn't make any sense to me I guess.


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## Steve Strom

You arent paying a club for a service TS. Its a group of people with an interest they share and they don't have to spend their time with anyone they don't want to. Don't over think it. Its like anything else you'd do for a hobby. You can either get along with people and make some friends, or you can alienate yourself and move on.


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## martemchik

For someone that has experience in the AKC conformation ring I'm not sure why this concept confuses you. It's all about the people you work with. You're going to be spending 5+ hours a weekend with these people, why would they want to put up with a bad egg that constantly gets on their nerves?

As far as the helper? The good helpers don't need more clients, they have plenty of demand. Why deal with people you don't have to deal with? You pay the guy $5-$30 a session, that's not nearly enough to have to put up with someone they don't like. At the end of the day, the title is for the person, not the dog. The dog doesn't care about a title.

These clubs are just a bunch of dog/sport enthusiasts getting together and enjoying their dogs and their time together. Most people become very good friends and do things outside of dog training together. We support each other in our endevours and there are many more benefits to these relationships outside of dog training and expertise.

Just like any group or team, you need chemistry for things to go smooth. And the dogs don't really cause any issues, it's the people. We're the complicated ones. So it makes perfect sense that you need to fit into the group and not just show up for dog training, pay money, and leave.


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## mspiker03

I don't really have much to add but wanted to say that I am not a part of any club but am still training for IPO. The club near me isn't accepting new members (nor do they email people back at times) so I am taking private lessons with the helper from that club. While I do miss being able to learn from watching others and the consistency of going to a club each week, I do like the individual attention for all three phases since I am new and now have two dogs that I am training.


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## lhczth

We accepted people into our club several times that one member had misgivings about. Every single time they were right and that person caused problems. 

How a club decides on new members has to do with how the club is set up. In my last club the officers decided if a prospect should be presented to the membership for a vote. 4 people made this decision initially. Some clubs, though, may be run almost entirely by the president, TD or the helper and in that case, yes, it is one "man's" vote. 

You train with people for hours (5-8 hours every weekend and sometimes twice a week) and you, generalized "you", want to make sure you can stand having that person around. This is fun for people so why in the world would they want to hang out with someone that is unpleasant or just not enjoyable to have around.


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## middleofnowhere

Hanging out Saturdays for three years I learned a little. You will not have to show your dog's pedigree for club members to know that s/he is show line. Some breeders have crossed WL with SL to get stronger color but knowledgable people (that does not include me) can take a look & pretty much tell. When they begin paying more attention to you, they will ask about the breeder. That's likely going to confirm what they thought. Some SL dogs can work, some can and will. 

If you read the FAQs more closely you will find a reference to "club" as in to get a score book, etc. So yes you have to join a club - and if you never show up to train at the club, you may not get approved to enter their trial. 

Sounds like the pres. wasn't really on top of her game the day you visited. Try again. Don't expect to be approached - approach people and ask questions. Ask about their dogs, ask about what you see going on, maybe ask about their procedures. Do not start off asking what they think of your dog. Maybe even leave your dog in its crate while you talk to people.

I've had lifelong friendships with people I've offended at the get go. So figure maybe someone can offend you and you can get over it and end up even likeing the offender.... [I go back to my earlier statement - try a little humility rather than being so full of yourself.]


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## Trinitys Storm

I understand not wanting to spend so much time with a pain in the butt if you don't have too and I get that good trainers don't need any more clients so picking and choosing the less annoying people would make sense to me.

But if someone wants to compete it shouldn't matter if the club members "like" the person or not. Let the dogs athleticism decide not the members who could have biased opinions about a certain person. Like someone mentioned it is the HUMANS who make things complicated. I'm not saying that someone should be totally rude and distracting to other members and cause delays in training or worse hurt another dog or person with their negligence. Then yes I wouldn't want them around either. It would be a liability. But if the trainer had a problem with lets say with a member for reasons other than the ability and performance of the dog and says they can't compete is just not making sense to me. 

And there is no prejudice in the AKC show ring at all towards people. If you have a registered dog then you can show. Bottom line. They don't care who you are,what you do for a living, where the dog came from as long as it was registered with the AKC then show your little heart out. Of course you need to have a dog that fits the breed standards. I know the competiveness of conformation shows and there are raging feuds from time to time. There would be a lot of dogs not being able to show because of pity human discrepancies against each other. 

Like I said if somebody wants to compete with their dog and both have the ability to do it safely and correctly then who cares if they get along with a certain person or persons. I don't know, that of course is just my opinion. 

And I know the president was having a bad day. She was very sweet and really knows schutzhund. The other members were all very nice too and all complimented trinity. I sat and talked to one member for a good hour and she gave me a lot of helpful information when I asked. I will try again and ask more questions and now I know how its supposed to be. Like I said it was my first meeting and things weren't as expected but the pres was having a rough day and the TD wasn't there so next time I'll go when he's there and hopefully the president will have a better day and see how it goes. Hopefully they like me too though, so I be sure to agree a lot and laugh at all their jokes and not mention AKC at all


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## DJEtzel

Trinitys Storm said:


> Like I said if somebody wants to compete with their dog and both have the ability to do it safely and correctly then who cares if they get along with a certain person or persons. I don't know, that of course is just my opinion.


You can compete your little heart out. Why would someone want you a part of their club if they can't stand you, though? That's their decision to make - what's worth it and what's not.


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## martemchik

Ahaha...the people don't matter in AKC? Yeah...keep thinking that. You get on the wrong person's bad side, and your dog will never see a placing for the rest of its life.

This isn't a single dog show. This is weekly training. Hours together at a time. Think of it as a business that has more than enough demand for its product...why should they deal with a problem customer? They won't. I know it might come as a shock to you, but plenty of businesses drop clients when the client just isn't worth the money.

You can join the USCA, not sure why you need DVG as you have a GSD. With the USCA you can join any trial you want and not need permission from anyone. The rules for the trial are the same I believe in both venues.

Your dog is only training for maybe, 30 minutes when you go to training. So for the rest of the time, you're standing around and talking, watching other dogs, asking questions. This is why you have to fit in with the group. The dog part of it, they'll work with most dogs. 

Anyways...no prejudice in the AKC ring towards people is easily the best thing I've read on this forum this week. Just priceless.


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> Anyways...no prejudice in the AKC ring towards people is easily the best thing I've read on this forum this week. Just priceless.


I couldn't even find the words to comment..


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## Trinitys Storm

Ok if you really think that if someone doesn't want you in a show ring then you won't in the AKC than you are wrong. Like I said you can show your dog no matter what as long as s/he is registered. It doesn't matter if someone doesn't like this person and that person is this. You show your **** dogs and don't get caught up in the drama. 

Sounds more like a high school clique that sports club you HAVE to pay for and join in order to compete.

THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED DOG SPORTS! 

EVER HEARD OF UNSPORTSMAN LIKE BEHAVIOR! 

Schutzhund is a SPORT for you to do with your dog!! In all sports it is about your ability to do something. NOT the ability to make friends while doing something. And even in people sports it doesn't matter if anybody likes you! Look at Michael Vick, that assholes still playing! But he is good at what he does so he plays.


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## Castlemaid

There is another aspect about doing IPO in a club - trust. When doing protection training, we have to trust each other to be honest about their handling skills, about knowing their dog, about having control. We have to be on the same wavelenght and communicate well and effectively and respond appropriately. If anyone in the group has an attitude that they know better, their dog is better, and act superior, it doesn't work. 

Most everyone in our club first joined with non-working type dogs, worked our rear-end off, some washed their dog and moved on to a more suitable one, some of us got a BH and a few other titles and certificates - then when we felt ready moved on to a more suitable dog - but in each case, it wasn't about joining and putting everyone else in their place by proving that we were better and our dog was better despite pre-conceived ideas about blood-lines or previous experience. It was about being open to learning, and challenging ourselves to see what we could achieve. 

Doing protection work is pretty intense - if you throw in drama and attitude into the mix, it's going to explode. Yes, it IS important that people get along, and it is about people when you are working in intense atmosphere with the risk of someone getting hurt. 
IPO is not just about going out on the field and earning titles - it's about working with others as a group.


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## lhczth

You are not getting it. These are CLUBS and as all CLUBS they are both social gatherings and for training. If you just want to train and trial then look into a hired sleeve or pay-to-play. Even in those cases you may run into people who are picky about who they train with. This is a small world and for many it is far more than JUST dog sport.


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## DJEtzel

Trinitys Storm said:


> Ok if you really think that if someone doesn't want you in a show ring then you won't in the AKC than you are wrong. Like I said you can show your dog no matter what as long as s/he is registered. It doesn't matter if someone doesn't like this person and that person is this. You show your **** dogs and don't get caught up in the drama.
> 
> Sounds more like a high school clique that sports club you HAVE to pay for and join in order to compete.
> 
> THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED DOG SPORTS!
> 
> EVER HEARD OF UNSPORTSMAN LIKE BEHAVIOR!
> 
> Schutzhund is a SPORT for you to do with your dog!! In all sports it is about your ability to do something. NOT the ability to make friends while doing something. And even in people sports it doesn't matter if anybody likes you! Look at Michael Vick, that assholes still playing! But he is good at what he does so he plays.


You have the theory down. 

You obviously are lacking the working knowledge, however.

That's how it should work, but that's not how it DOES work, in the dog world, at all.


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## martemchik

You NEED certain people in this sport. So when they decide that they don't feel like offering their service to you, it doesn't matter how great your dog is. Theyd work the dog, they just don't want to deal with the person at the other end of the leash. Period. No matter how you spin it, you're not going to win. Sure, your POV makes sense, but at the end of the day, things work the way we've all explained to you. If you don't understand that your club fee or $20 payment for a pay for play type deal isn't enough for people to want to keep working with you, there's nothing more I can say.

In AKC, no one will tell you not to be in the show. But if you piss off the wrong people, you'll never win. And then what's the point of just entering shows if you'll never win? I have an AKC registered dog, I can enter him in as many dog shows as I can afford, but I'll never win a single one...so what's the point of entering?

This is a service, no one cares about your dog succeeding or not. No one else cares that your dog won't get the opportunity to do it. There are more dogs out there and more people out there that they can care and want to succeed. And it has nothing to do with the dogs, all to do with the owner.

This isn't about the dog. This is a people sport. People use this to entertain themselves. The dogs don't have a choice in it. You seem to be really focused on the dogs, but this is all about people. My dog doesnt need a hobby, I do. And in my hobby, I use my dog. 

In USCA no one will tell you no. So you can do that. But it's not about the trial, it's about the training. And people can choose to not offer you their service. And the more you think that they should just care about your dogs ability, the less people are going to offer you their service.

What do you do for a living? Maybe if I relate it to your job you'd understand this more.


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## lhczth

I have been in clubs where there are people that don't get along or people who bring strife and tension into the club. This makes for a very bad training environment which is not only unfair to the handlers, but, more importantly, totally unfair to the dogs.


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## Anubis_Star

I understand that you don't appear to AGREE with how clubs usually interact socially. However, it is what it is, and no amount of arguing with very knowledgeable members on here is going to change that. 

You also need to realize where working dog clubs originated. My trainer lived in Belgium for years and that's where he started training. Over in Europe they are often the social event of little towns. Many clubs have bars. On Sundays many stores and areas shut down, and everyone goes to the club. They're social interactive settings for like minded people. 

Please keep in mind, the majority of clubs are not in demand of dogs. If anything they have too many dogs training already. We've finally weeded out some bad eggs and the last few months I think we've had roughly 15 dogs training. That's PERFECT. Over the summer we would have 25+ dogs any given weekend, and it's too much (each club might be different on what's too much for them. Up until recently we only had 1 decoy, now we're training 2 more). If you have too many dogs, the day drags on way too long. Decoys get exhausted. Dogs get bored. You get bored. It gets too hot in the summer.

If you have 50 people wanting to work with your club but can only handle to train 10-20, then yes, you easily have the ability to make sure everyone fits in EVERY aspect. We've had the little clicks that had a different training method or attitude, and it's just not enjoyable.

There are so many different clubs, you will find one that fits. Some of the clubs by me train and act as if everyone is competing in nationals tomorrow. Too strict and rigid for me. Some train like every 8 week old puppy needs harshly corrected into a heel. Some are like mine, one person brings the Margarita mix and another brings the tequila. 

Lastly, no one judges a dog for being AKC registered. Correct me if I'm wrong but most working dogs are AKC registered in America because it's our main kennel club. Some imports might not be, but most dogs I know are. Berlin is AKC registered. His parents aren't because they're imports. And showlines, it's not necessarily the conformation that makes many sport and working people turn away, but their temperament. They've been bred so far away from any type of working mentality to focus on a desired elongated gait in the ring that most simply have undesirable temperaments and drives for the sport.


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## Trinitys Storm

martemchik said:


> You NEED certain people in this sport. So when they decide that they don't feel like offering their service to you, it doesn't matter how great your dog is. Theyd work the dog, they just don't want to deal with the person at the other end of the leash. Period. No matter how you spin it, you're not going to win. Sure, your POV makes sense, but at the end of the day, things work the way we've all explained to you. If you don't understand that your club fee or $20 payment for a pay for play type deal isn't enough for people to want to keep working with you, there's nothing more I can say.
> 
> In AKC, no one will tell you not to be in the show. But if you piss off the wrong people, you'll never win. And then what's the point of just entering shows if you'll never win? I have an AKC registered dog, I can enter him in as many dog shows as I can afford, but I'll never win a single one...so what's the point of entering?
> 
> This is a service, no one cares about your dog succeeding or not. No one else cares that your dog won't get the opportunity to do it. There are more dogs out there and more people out there that they can care and want to succeed. And it has nothing to do with the dogs, all to do with the owner.
> 
> This isn't about the dog. This is a people sport. People use this to entertain themselves. The dogs don't have a choice in it. You seem to be really focused on the dogs, but this is all about people. My dog doesnt need a hobby, I do. And in my hobby, I use my dog.
> 
> In USCA no one will tell you no. So you can do that. But it's not about the trial, it's about the training. And people can choose to not offer you their service. And the more you think that they should just care about your dogs ability, the less people are going to offer you their service.
> 
> What do you do for a living? Maybe if I relate it to your job you'd understand this more.


 
1: *Schutzhund* (German for "protection dog") is a dog sport that was developed in Germany in the early 1900s as a breed suitability test for the German Shepherd Dog. The test would determine if the dog displayed the appropriate traits and characteristics of a proper working German Shepherd Dog.

2: Should have nothing to do with a person not liking the other person when we are trying to prove that our dogs are suitable for work. 

3: Schutzhund is NOT a service for people at all. 

4: What if I did not want to join the USCA because they're way stricter with the registration process and I wanted to join DVG? Then I would have to have connections with people in the club to compete? Like I said doesn't make sense to me.


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## Anubis_Star

As well - I think it's awesome to see younger people like you and myself getting so into the breed and sports  the best thing I learned, don't take things too personally, although I know it's hard. Especially when you've come from a long line of dog handling experience. Trust me there's so much more to learn and know. Listen to the people that have been doing it for longer than we've been alive, chances are they're doing something right  I'm sorry your first experience wasn't what you expected, but keep an open mind or just look for another club. I didn't join the first club I visited.


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## Anubis_Star

You know what, you're VERY right, schutzhund is NOT a service for people. They don't have to serve you at all


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## Castlemaid

You always have the option to start your own club, and you can accept everyone without reservation. 

Honestly, just go, listen, work with the people, train your dog. Forget about all the rest of the stuff you are so focused on.


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## Steve Strom

Hey TS, when you get out there, I really hope your dog bites. I could be wrong, but I doubt you're gonna like the sport at all if she doesnt.


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## Anubis_Star

So here's the mentality I don't get - it's all about the dog? So what if someone is a noob but REALLY wants to do it. And they study and they listen and they're eager to do whatever club members recommend and they always show up early to help set up and stay late to help break down and everyone adores them. But their dog is meh. It'll get a BH but drive for the bite is lacking and they'll probably scrape by with an ipo1. But they'll learn and absorb and when they're ready for their next dog the club can help them find a good one and they could go far.

What you're saying is if there's limited space, this eager polite willing person shouldn't be allowed to join because some know it all with a bad attitude that rubs everyone the wrong way was lucky enough to get a dog with just enough drive to want the sleeve?


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## ayoitzrimz

Anubis_Star said:


> So here's the mentality I don't get - it's all about the dog? So what if someone is a noob but REALLY wants to do it. And they study and they listen and they're eager to do whatever club members recommend and they always show up early to help set up and stay late to help break down and everyone adores them. But their dog is meh. It'll get a BH but drive for the bite is lacking and they'll probably scrape by with an ipo1. But they'll learn and absorb and when they're ready for their next dog the club can help them find a good one and they could go far.
> 
> What you're saying is if there's limited space, this eager polite willing person shouldn't be allowed to join because some know it all with a bad attitude that rubs everyone the wrong way was lucky enough to get a dog with just enough drive to want the sleeve?


Didn't read the rest of the thread, but in our club we care more about what people we work in than what dog they are using.

We had dogs that couldn't do protection, but the owners were dedicated and eager to learn, showed up on time, asked good questions, helped out, etc etc. So we explained the situation nicely (that the dog is not fit for PR but can do OB + TR, or even BH, etc) and then let them make their own decision.

Some handlers left, others stayed and ended up getting their dog as far as they can, and others worked their dog for a while and then got a dog better suited for SchH and kept the two. 

So we take in the good folks that want to learn, and have a very low tolerance for folks who have attitudes, lazy, didn't show up consistently, etc regardless of how awesome their dog is.

So I guess no matter what conclusion you draw from people on the forum here, realize that this forum is a tiny blimp in the working dog world. Check out the clubs in your area because they can be totally different than what you read here or other clubs for that matter.


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## Trinitys Storm

Very good points were made. 

My dog could not want to bite the sleeve when she gets older. As can anybody elses dog in that matter.

I'm not saying there should be a rule change or that you should change your opinions about clubs and it's members. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me that's all. 

I know I wouldn't like to be around someone I didn't like but that's life. Work, family, in laws, neighbors, there's always that someone who gets on your nerves. 

Lets say there was a quiet person who never did seem to get the hang of communicating with people and they wanted to join a club but they came off as rude and standoffish towards people. Even though it's not their intentions, and the club members could huddle together and "discuss" the new member prospect and decide "Nah, I couldn't handle hanging out with this person training for so long every weekend. They can't compete with their dog now in DVG now" 

Understand?

I'm not saying cause problems at all. If there are serious problems caused then hold a group meeting and kick them out. You shouldn't choose who gets in or not based on how you get along. If training is not being compromised and people are going to get hurt or start swinging at each other then take action.


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## onyx'girl

FWIW, most members are mostly focusing on their training program and not huddling together talking about other club members.....at least where I train and have trained.
That focus on themselves may make THEM appear rude or standoffish to a newb. 
When I'm training, I don't mind chit-chat, but personally, I like to watch the other teams on the field and learn(this is in all three phases, not just protection). Sometimes that chit-chat gets annoying so I'll move further away from conversations to focus on what's going on ON the field.

We don't want to deal with immature drama.
We're there to work our dogs, support each other while doing so. And eat, calories aren't counted on training days.
Why the focus on DVG?


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## Castlemaid

A quiet person that listens and learns is good. You don't seem to understand what people are saying, or you just like to milk every word for drama. 

I'll tell you what kind of people aren't a good fit:

People who know everything because they watched all the you tube videos, and argue with every pointer and suggestion you try to make.

People who openly and under-handedly blame other club members and the helper for their dogs' issues.

People who expect a club to constantly change their training schedule, their training routine and make rules of who is allowed on the field when, just because that is how they want it.

People who show up with three dogs, and they have to go first in the protection rotation because they are expected at a wedding, supper, bar-b-que, other, and have to leave, and they do this week after week after week.

People who show interest in joining the club, come out to visit, are welcome and given attention, then warned that we are getting ready for a trial, so people will be busy and preoccupied, and to not take it personally. Then the following week they show up when we are running through a dry run, and everyone is on the field playing a role (judge, secretary, crowd for distraction, proofing dogs in long down, etc), then leave offended because they hung around for a few minutes but no-one came off the field to talk to them. 

Sorta getting the idea? 

And I'm not an outgoing chatty person at all. But that didn't mean I didn't work well with everyone. How you mesh has more to do with your attitude than your social skills.


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## gsdsar

I went to a few clubs before finding the group I train with now. Some people were not friendly or welcoming, some were fantastic, but the training style did not mesh with me. 

We do this for fun. If it's not fun, why do it. 99% of us won't ever go the Mationals, most will never compete at regionals. I train because I like to learn, I like to be with like minded people, so you know what, it's gotta be fun. 

I dined at most 30 minutes on the field working my dog, the rest if the time is watching others work their dogs, or chatting with other members. So I better like most if them. 

I do understand where you are coming from. I understand the frustration. But please understand that the club is not making money. Even though you pay. Those dues support the club, the field and pay judges for trials. This is not a business, at least in most cases. This is a hobby, a fun place, this a group of people who voluntarily get together, who have lives away from the club, kids to take to camp, nieces who get engaged, moms who need rides to the doctor. 

It sounds like you had a distinct idea about what was involved and the club you went to did not meet that expectation. So that sucks. But I encourage you to keep an open mind. Go again, even if the TD is not there. Hang out, watch, ask questions, learn, have fun.


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## middleofnowhere

OP OK I'm amazed. Someone talked to you for an hour, people were friendly, they complemented your dog - And that the heck wasn't enough for you? 

Here's a hint. I've said it before - drop the attitude! You have to put in years at a club before anyone will powder your butt.


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## Trinitys Storm

Middleofnowhere- people were very nice and most were very welcoming. That was never an issue it was said that if the club doesn't like you they don't have to put up with you. I'm trying to sound like I have an attitude and sure as heck do not mean to offend anybody. I am new to this sport so I was just asking questions. That's how I learn the most by asking experienced individuals anything and everything, like one VERY sweet old lady explained the blinds to me and in ipo1 you only run your dog 2 blinds, ipo2 is 4, and ipo3 is all 6. I didn't know that. It was just the president that seemed to be giving me the cold shoulder and if she didn't like me then I couldn't compete with my dog. I'm dying to learn this sport and would be devastated if I couldn't train and compete.

I just know that if somebody happened to not be as friendly with people and just enjoyed working with their dogs and titling them they could likely not be able too. 

Maybe I'm just being a pain in the you know what but my point is blunt.

They should Let anybody train and compete no matter their social status as long as the dog was able to. If things get dangerous for anyone or their dogs then by all means kick them out. But give us newbies a chance to play at least!


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## rkwjunior

Trinitys Storm said:


> Middleofnowhere- people were very nice and most were very welcoming. That was never an issue it was said that if the club doesn't like you they don't have to put up with you. I'm trying to sound like I have an attitude and sure as heck do not mean to offend anybody. I am new to this sport so I was just asking questions. That's how I learn the most by asking experienced individuals anything and everything, like one VERY sweet old lady explained the blinds to me and in ipo1 you only run your dog 2 blinds, ipo2 is 4, and ipo3 is all 6. I didn't know that. It was just the president that seemed to be giving me the cold shoulder and if she didn't like me then I couldn't compete with my dog. I'm dying to learn this sport and would be devastated if I couldn't train and compete.
> 
> I just know that if somebody happened to not be as friendly with people and just enjoyed working with their dogs and titling them they could likely not be able too.
> 
> Maybe I'm just being a pain in the you know what but my point is blunt.
> 
> They should Let anybody train and compete no matter their social status as long as the dog was able to. If things get dangerous for anyone or their dogs then by all means kick them out. But give us newbies a chance to play at least!


I'm a Noob too, but i think what people are saying is, why the **** would they want to train someones dog if the owner is less than tolerable. It's all volunteer work, being paid to train is one thing, but volunteering is another. 
If i was a trainer and the owner was an idiot, the last thing i would do is volunteer my time to that persons dog, if they're paying me then i have to suck it up.... the customer is always right. Your not a customer when ur a member of a club, your part of the club.


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## Anubis_Star

Trinitys Storm said:


> Middleofnowhere- people were very nice and most were very welcoming. That was never an issue it was said that if the club doesn't like you they don't have to put up with you. I'm trying to sound like I have an attitude and sure as heck do not mean to offend anybody. I am new to this sport so I was just asking questions. That's how I learn the most by asking experienced individuals anything and everything, like one VERY sweet old lady explained the blinds to me and in ipo1 you only run your dog 2 blinds, ipo2 is 4, and ipo3 is all 6. I didn't know that. It was just the president that seemed to be giving me the cold shoulder and if she didn't like me then I couldn't compete with my dog. I'm dying to learn this sport and would be devastated if I couldn't train and compete.
> 
> I just know that if somebody happened to not be as friendly with people and just enjoyed working with their dogs and titling them they could likely not be able too.
> 
> Maybe I'm just being a pain in the you know what but my point is blunt.
> 
> They should Let anybody train and compete no matter their social status as long as the dog was able to. If things get dangerous for anyone or their dogs then by all means kick them out. But give us newbies a chance to play at least!


You're not listening to what the experienced people are saying.... so really it's pointless beyond here.

Clubs have limited amount of space, so no not everyone can "play". Good thing there are numerous clubs out there. And it's not how much you say, it's WHAT you say. And you've said plenty here.


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## Trinitys Storm

I guess some people are just not getting it. Who the heck cares what others think? Let them compete. They don't have to train their dog if they don't like them, that's their choice which dogs they train. But since the only way to compete in DVG is to join a club then the clubs shouldn't get to pick who they let it. If they pay their dues then let them train. You don't have to like them or train their dogs if you don't want too. We're all here because we love dogs in the end.

Guess it's hard to understand that some people are here for the dogs and not to make friends. Making friends is something that automatically happens when you spend a lot of time together. And enemies are made the same way.


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## Anubis_Star

ayoitzrimz said:


> Didn't read the rest of the thread, but in our club we care more about what people we work in than what dog they are using.
> 
> We had dogs that couldn't do protection, but the owners were dedicated and eager to learn, showed up on time, asked good questions, helped out, etc etc. So we explained the situation nicely (that the dog is not fit for PR but can do OB + TR, or even BH, etc) and then let them make their own decision.
> 
> Some handlers left, others stayed and ended up getting their dog as far as they can, and others worked their dog for a while and then got a dog better suited for SchH and kept the two.
> 
> So we take in the good folks that want to learn, and have a very low tolerance for folks who have attitudes, lazy, didn't show up consistently, etc regardless of how awesome their dog is.
> 
> So I guess no matter what conclusion you draw from people on the forum here, realize that this forum is a tiny blimp in the working dog world. Check out the clubs in your area because they can be totally different than what you read here or other clubs for that matter.


Oh no I'm very well aware of what clubs are like, since I've been a member of one since the day I got berlin. I was simply trying to make a point to the OP who is frustrated with the social aspect that is present in most clubs.


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## Trinitys Storm

Basically what everyone is saying is if someone in the club doesn't like you, like the president or training director, then you cannot compete. That's America I guess because I'm sure in Germany, correct me if I'm wrong, in order for their dogs to complete the breed specific test they sure as **** don't care about the PEOPLE but the DOGS ability to perform. 

THIS IS WHY SCHUTZHUND WAS CREATED! TO MEASURE THE DOGS ABILITY TO PERFORM THE TESTS IT WAS DESIGNED FOR. NOT FOR PEOPLE TO DO AS A HOBBY ON THE WEEKENDS!!!!


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## Anubis_Star

Trinitys Storm said:


> I guess some people are just not getting it. Who the heck cares what others think? Let them compete. They don't have to train their dog if they don't like them, that's their choice which dogs they train. But since the only way to compete in DVG is to join a club then the clubs shouldn't get to pick who they let it. If they pay their dues then let them train. You don't have to like them or train their dogs if you don't want too. We're all here because we love dogs in the end.
> 
> Guess it's hard to understand that some people are here for the dogs and not to make friends. Making friends is something that automatically happens when you spend a lot of time together. And enemies are made the same way.


Clubs only have a limited number of spots. They physically can't let everyone in.


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## rkwjunior

Trinitys Storm said:


> I guess some people are just not getting it. Who the heck cares what others think? Let them compete. They don't have to train their dog if they don't like them, that's their choice which dogs they train. But since the only way to compete in DVG is to join a club then the clubs shouldn't get to pick who they let it. If they pay their dues then let them train. You don't have to like them or train their dogs if you don't want too. We're all here because we love dogs in the end.
> 
> Guess it's hard to understand that some people are here for the dogs and not to make friends. Making friends is something that automatically happens when you spend a lot of time together. And enemies are made the same way.


I'm pretty sure your not getting it, in fact i'm 100% sure. 
Now i'm new at this... and i would have to say the number one priority in a club is "fun", fun between people and dogs, and learning the sport, getting the titles is the final outcome. But If someone is a buzzkill and brings down the moral as soon as they pull in the lot, the word "fun" turns into "not fun", not fun to train, not fun to socialize, if it's not fun, then no one would want to be there, and no trainer will want to train the "not so fun persons dog" It's really very elementary to understand.

If you want to get ur dog titled then pay someone to do it for you, but part of doing it is learning the sport, and a club is where that is done, and there are things that go along with being in a club that is "volunterring" to "help" get your dog titled. You are not a customer at a Schutz training facility, if they even exist.


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## mycobraracr

OP- Easy solution, join USCA and train yourself. With USCA no one has to approve you. You entire a trial, show up and do it. 

Clubs can be selective. As others have said, there just isn't enough time in the day to work everyone who wanted to join. Plus most people tend to wash out themselves. Once people realize how much time it takes and the new excitement wears off, they tend to start showing up less and less then eventually not at all. I'm a helper/decoy with three different groups and three different sports. Fact is, we can only work so many dogs a day. I go weeks without working my personal dogs because either 1) I'm too tired after working everyone else's, 2) The other decoy/helper is too tired after working everyone else's, or 3) there isn't another decoy that day. It's just the facts. If you don't like a certain club, then find another until you find your match. No one is saying you have to become bff's. You just have to not be an a$$. I'm probably one you wouldn't like much at a club. I don't talk to new people a ton. I'm busy working a dog or watching a dog work. Since my groups have multiple helper/decoy's we all have to pay attention to what is going on with all the dogs. Chances are a different decoy will be working it the next time and we all have to be on the same page for the dog to succeed.


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## car2ner

by the way, if anyone in the Washington DC area wants to watch a trial. here is the facebook link to our club event in November.

https://www.facebook.com/wagclubdc/...41830.791317987563718/933074660054716/?type=1


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## Trinitys Storm

rkwjunior said:


> I'm pretty sure your not getting it, in fact i'm 100% sure.
> Now i'm new at this... and i would have to say the number one priority in a club is "fun", fun between people and dogs, and learning the sport, getting the titles is the final outcome. But If someone is a buzzkill and brings down the moral as soon as they pull in the lot, the word "fun" turns into "not fun", not fun to train, not fun to socialize, if it's not fun, then no one would want to be there, and no trainer will want to train the "not so fun persons dog" It's really very elementary to understand.
> 
> If you want to get ur dog titled then pay someone to do it for you, but part of doing it is learning the sport, and a club is where that is done, and there are things that go along with being in a club that is "volunterring" to "help" get your dog titled. You are not a customer at a Schutz training facility, if they even exist.


Yea I'm pretty sure I get what your saying now 100%. Screw holding onto breed specifics, traits and instincts, as long as your having fun. I mean seriously? That is not why this sport was created. I'm tired of repeating that.

Who says you can't have fun minding your own business training your dog? I'm there to train and compete. Making friends is an added bonus. If I wanted help I'd hire a personal trainer, like I did yesterday, and get real help. 

But...it wouldn't matter how good you and your dog got to be with that trainer if your clubs training director didn't want you to compete. What if, let's say, the clubs training director and your personal trainer were complete rivals and hated each other for taking customers. Then the TD could say the personal trainers customer couldn't compete because they were trained wrong and then there goes a perfectly sound animal that would be amazing at trials and a great model of the breed. 

Now please do not confuse me with being this person, I know my dog isn't a perfect model of the breed and I enjoyed the majority of the people who were at the clubs company. Do I think she'll go to nationals? Probably not even close. Do I think that we could get titled if trained correctly? Absolutely, yes I do. I just don't think that I should be concerned about certain people not liking me.


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## lalachka

Trinitys Storm said:


> Basically what everyone is saying is if someone in the club doesn't like you, like the president or training director, then you cannot compete. That's America I guess because I'm sure in Germany, correct me if I'm wrong, in order for their dogs to complete the breed specific test they sure as **** don't care about the PEOPLE but the DOGS ability to perform.
> 
> THIS IS WHY SCHUTZHUND WAS CREATED! TO MEASURE THE DOGS ABILITY TO PERFORM THE TESTS IT WAS DESIGNED FOR. NOT FOR PEOPLE TO DO AS A HOBBY ON THE WEEKENDS!!!!


You can compete without a club. Train by yourself. 
No one owes you anything. Clubs are not some government organizations that must take anyone that applies. They can pick and choose who they want to accept and pour much time and effort into. No matter the club fees, you're not paying them nearly enough to cover what you're getting in training so they're doing people favors by accepting them. They're essentially giving them free services. 
If you don't believe me then hire a trainer for private sessions and train for schh that way. Then you will see how much it really costs. And there no one will care if they like you or not, if you're barely tolerable and pay on time they will work with you.


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## Trinitys Storm

I did hire a personal trainer today and I am NOT going to be involved with DVG. I'm not a fan I guess of the fact that they can tell you not to trail and make you "go away" if they wanted too. I would've hired a personal trainer regardless of the fact that I was in a club because I would want more personal attention for me and my dog. I'm just more serious in that way I guess. 

Money although is not an issue for me but to some it wouldn't be fair to not get the proper training they needed because they're new, or come across as a know it all, or didn't get along with certain people in the "club", Or have an AKC registered GSD. 

THANK YOU ALL THOUGH FOR POINTING ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION TO THE USCA AND STEERING ME CLEAR OF DVG CLUBS!! PHEW!


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## onyx'girl

There is another group that is more geared toward Showlines... GSDCA you are familiar with that organization?
AKC registration has nothing to do with how well you'll do or won't do. I know people who are competing with dogs of unknown pedigree. 
Best wishes in your journey...after all it is about the journey for most of us.


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## robk

Let me help you out. To get the most out of this sport, it does take a good dog, AND it takes good people. If you have a great attitude and make some friends and people are willing to invest in you and your success you will go far. How far, does however, depend in part on your dogs genetic ability. If the dog doesn't have it, its not the end of the world and you will not be kicked out of the club. The contacts you have made will guide you in the selection of a good dog to move forward with. 

We need more people in this sport. I hope you do well and really enjoy it. Be fair to your dog (don't push it past its genetic ability) and make some friends.


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## Trinitys Storm

robk said:


> Let me help you out. To get the most out of this sport, it does take a good dog, AND it takes good people. If you have a great attitude and make some friends and people are willing to invest in to you and your success you will go far. How far does, however, depend in part on your dogs genetic ability. If the dog doesn't have it, its not the end of the world and you will not be kicked out of the club. The contacts you have made will guide you in the selection of a good dog to move forward with.
> 
> We need more people in this sport. I hope you do well and really enjoy it. Be fair to your dog (don't push it past its genetic ability) and make some friends.


This is the best advice I have gotten so far. Thank you, makes perfect sense.


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## robk

Trinitys Storm said:


> This is the best advice I have gotten so far. Thank you, makes perfect sense.


Your welcome!


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## Anubis_Star

Trinitys Storm said:


> Yea I'm pretty sure I get what your saying now 100%. Screw holding onto breed specifics, traits and instincts, as long as your having fun. I mean seriously? That is not why this sport was created. I'm tired of repeating that.
> 
> Who says you can't have fun minding your own business training your dog? I'm there to train and compete. Making friends is an added bonus. If I wanted help I'd hire a personal trainer, like I did yesterday, and get real help.
> 
> But...it wouldn't matter how good you and your dog got to be with that trainer if your clubs training director didn't want you to compete. What if, let's say, the clubs training director and your personal trainer were complete rivals and hated each other for taking customers. Then the TD could say the personal trainers customer couldn't compete because they were trained wrong and then there goes a perfectly sound animal that would be amazing at trials and a great model of the breed.
> 
> Now please do not confuse me with being this person, I know my dog isn't a perfect model of the breed and I enjoyed the majority of the people who were at the clubs company. Do I think she'll go to nationals? Probably not even close. Do I think that we could get titled if trained correctly? Absolutely, yes I do. I just don't think that I should be concerned about certain people not liking me.


My trainer and the other trainer in my club don't like the original trainer I worked with, the trainer that actually opened my eyes to working dogs. However I don't think they would ever "kick me out" for working with him. Probably just give their reasonings for not liking whatever methods they disagree with.

Stop ranting with a closed mind, ignoring everything that EVERY ONE is telling you. Seems to me like you're the odd one out here so everyone else's mind set is probably not the incorrect one. Yet odd thing, with all these lousy clubs kicking out all the great dogs and only keeping horrible dogs because their owners are nice, there are a lot of great dogs being produced by clubs out there. Hmmm.....

You're not listening. Like truly LISTENING. You're angry about, I don't even know what? Because everyone tells you if you're a pain in the @$$ that butts heads with everyone you'll likely find yourself out of a club sooner rather than later? NO ONE said you had to be BFFs with everyone to be able to train. There are people in every club that probably aren't "liked" by many in the sense that training methods probably aren't 100% agreed on and maybe they just don't vibe personality wise. But as long as you aren't actively bumping heads with everyone, honestly who cares?? I know we wouldnt at my club. So what if you're quiet and don't talk a ton? That's fine. There's people like that in my club. Do you listen and watch the other dogs? Do you ask appropriate questions? Do you listen to the trainer and decoy when it comes to your dog? Do you help with club duties, setting up and breaking down, joining in groups for distraction, etc? Do you get along with everyone else? if so, they won't care if you're miss chatty or not. But if you're sitting in the corner texting and not paying attention at all, making irrelevant, incorrect, and snide remarks about things you know nothing about, they probably won't like you.

If you came into any club with the know it all attitude you've presented here, I would not be thrilled to invite you back. You started out fine, introducing yourself, asking for club advice. Then you turned condescending, judgemental, superior, all in the span of 2 thread posts. Hopefully you didn't come across like that in person. THAT is what will get you asked not to return to a club. Not the fact that you may be quiet.

Stop twisting everyone's words and just listen to people who have been doing this longer than you've been alive, and don't dare presume to know better than them when you've only ever visited a training club once in your short life.


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## Steve Strom

Trinitys Storm said:


> I did hire a personal trainer today and I am NOT going to be involved with DVG. I'm not a fan I guess of the fact that they can tell you not to trail and make you "go away" if they wanted too. I would've hired a personal trainer regardless of the fact that I was in a club because I would want more personal attention for me and my dog. I'm just more serious in that way I guess.
> 
> Money although is not an issue for me but to some it wouldn't be fair to not get the proper training they needed because they're new, or come across as a know it all, or didn't get along with certain people in the "club", Or have an AKC registered GSD.
> 
> THANK YOU ALL THOUGH FOR POINTING ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION TO THE USCA AND STEERING ME CLEAR OF DVG CLUBS!! PHEW!


Lol, I hate to tell you this, but if a USCA club's trial is full or if one of their members decides to trial, guess who they can bump? And I'm not sure you have the facts straight about DVG. I didnt read all the faq's but the fact that they accept USCA scorebooks makes me think you don't have to belong to an affiliated DVG club. 

Just cool your jets and have some fun with your dog. You've only gone out once, you don't have any reasons to be so concerned or judge mental of anything. Relax.


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## Trinitys Storm

Oh I'm not twisting anybody's words there buddy. I'm simply REPEATING some of the things that some people said, not all some people had honest good tips about schutzhund and it's clubs, and put their words in different situations that COULD technically happen apparently. 

Sorry I have a different opinion of how the sport was supposed to be. I guess all the books and and every single article I could find on the web about what schutzhund was is wrong. Then again the books were writen 20 + years ago when people apparently were more about the dogs then getting along in "clubs". 

I'll hire a personal trainer and work from home. I have plenty of space to create my own schutzhund course, 20 acres bordering the over 430,000 acres in the ocala national forest to practice tracking. The club I went to was at the presidents house and if she wasn't home one weekend, like next weekend she's going to sea world, then people couldn't go there and train because it would be a liability. 

I do NOT care if you do not like me. That is perfectly fine with me. I do not like many people either. I like animals. That's why I became a vet tech and pet groomer. Although those both have to deal with people a lot of the time checking clients in and out they are usually very happy because you helped their pet, be it grooming or a vet check.


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## martemchik

Lol...those books were written by some very knowledgeable people that didn't need clubs at the point that they were at. So of course everything was great. And just to let you know, those same people would've gotten a quick history of your dog, asked for a pedigree, and would've dismissed you and your dog from the club before even grabbing a flirt pole. Or they would've come at your 2 month old puppy with the stick, ran it off the field, and told you to get a new dog because that one is unsuitable. If you think that you're getting any less of a "fair shake" than you would've back then...you're kidding yourself.

The books don't tell anywhere near the true history of the sport.

Can you elaborate on "schutzhund course"? I've never heard of one. Did you read about it in a book?


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## Anubis_Star

martemchik said:


> Lol...those books were written by some very knowledgeable people that didn't need clubs at the point that they were at. So of course everything was great. And just to let you know, those same people would've gotten a quick history of your dog, asked for a pedigree, and would've dismissed you and your dog from the club before even grabbing a flirt pole. Or they would've come at your 2 month old puppy with the stick, ran it off the field, and told you to get a new dog because that one is unsuitable. If you think that you're getting any less of a "fair shake" than you would've back then...you're kidding yourself.
> 
> The books don't tell anywhere near the true history of the sport.
> 
> Can you elaborate on "schutzhund course"? I've never heard of one. Did you read about it in a book?


Haha she should be thankful clubs and the sport are as nice as they are these days! Same reason stick hits are being taken away, so everyone can "play"


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## car2ner

The more I read this the more I am thankful for my club...and it is a DVG club. The TD has dobermans and we like having a mix of breeds. We have puppies and older dogs. If we pass the club trials we celebrate. If someone makes it to regionals we will celebrate. If someone makes it to nationals we will REALLY celebrate. One milestone at a time. 

here is a flickr album of the fun we have been having training our dogs this year

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjUPFuuG

The biggest problem with dog training clubs of any kind is politics. Throw any set of initials up and someone will groan about the politics they faced with that group.


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## Trinitys Storm

This is why dogs these days are such crap and good ones are hard to come by. Because they got a bunch of hurt feeling girls together and didn't want people hitting their "protection" dog with a big stick. I'm not the one who's scared for my dog to get hit. If she couldn't handle it then she couldn't handle it. Bottom line. We'd move on. That's one way to find out if your dog has it or not. 

But to take this sport and turn it into a Girl Scout club instead of the dog breed suitiblitly test it originated from is a shame. The clubs seem to be ran off politics and like what was mentioned once politics get involved things go to crap. 

And what I don't understand is why you wouldn't try to go as far as you could instead of settle for IPO1 or BH. 

And I never said I didn't know how to run a course. The books don't explain about the IPO1-3 ran today. There is no updated information on this sport really. So I asked for a few tips and got bashed because I do not believe you have to be chosen in order to train your dog and compete. 

So far it seems like the clubs are not very inviting to new comers. That is fine and all for now but new comers are going to be running everything years down the road so you should be more friendly to the future schutzhund trainers of America. Or this sport will die along with the whole **** reason it was created. To make better german shepherds.


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## DJEtzel

Well, the club I met this past weekend was very helpful and welcoming.... To me(as a COMPLETE noob to the sport). Because I wasn't a complete know-it-all jerk with nothing but my eye on the prize. 

I've certainly heard of them not allowing some people with bad attitudes to come back, too.


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## onyx'girl

Trinitys Storm said:


> This is why dogs these days are such crap and good ones are hard to come by. Because they got a bunch of hurt feeling girls together and didn't want people hitting their "protection" dog with a big stick. I'm not the one who's scared for my dog to get hit. If she couldn't handle it then she couldn't handle it. Bottom line. We'd move on. That's one way to find out if your dog has it or not.
> 
> But to take this sport and turn it into a Girl Scout club instead of the dog breed suitiblitly test it originated from is a shame. The clubs seem to be ran off politics and like what was mentioned once politics get involved things go to crap.
> 
> And what I don't understand is why you wouldn't try to go as far as you could instead of settle for IPO1 or BH.
> 
> And I never said I didn't know how to run a course. The books don't explain about the IPO1-3 ran today. *There is no updated information on this sport really.* So I asked for a few tips and got bashed because I do not believe you have to be chosen in order to train your dog and compete.
> 
> So far it seems like the clubs are not very inviting to new comers. That is fine and all for now but new comers are going to be running everything years down the road so you should be more friendly to the future schutzhund trainers of America. Or this sport will die along with the whole **** reason it was created. To make better german shepherds.


On the USCA website the rules are there, along with the pattern for heeling, the field layout, tracking patterns etc. You need to quit typing away on this forum and read. 
There is a great fb page, but I recommend that you read the past threads and not so much participate at this time. https://www.facebook.com/groups/IPOTraining/?ref=ts&fref=ts


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## martemchik

I like you trinity. Its rare to see so much passion about something a person has no clue about.

The sport has the same basic principles, the training method has just changed. People realized that running dogs off is useless. Run a dog off, owner won't come back for another decade until they get a new dog...what's the point in that?

You've been to one club and made a judgement on all of them. That's unfortunate, you're really going to isolate yourself in a sport where you need all the resources you can get. Your personal trainer? Who knows if he's good? Not you... And the only way to learn is to see other people.

For someone who is so passionate about getting the best GSD you definitely put yourself behind the 8 ball with your dog. Just off price I can tell that your dogs parents were unlikely to have been worked in IPO, probably not even health checked, and yet you supported that breeder with your money. But yet you want the dogs to be "the best" by bringing the sport back to what it was. I'm like 99% sure that a helper can run your dog off the field if they wanted to the next time you're on a training field...and your dog would never come back...would that be fun for you? 

I'm a year younger than you. The whole club thing was very foreign to me too. But when you stop worrying and pissing people off about how "things should be done" and just train your dog...it's amazing how helpful that type of environment is.

And I can tell by how you spew secondary information on this forum, how you'd be in person. Your passion comes off very know-it-all when you really don't know anything. To people that have done this sport for even a year you come off very comical with your convictions based on nothing more than words on paper.


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## LaRen616

I obviously don't do this sport, but from reading this thread, it doesn't seem like a welcoming sport. 

Reading about people being judged right away, being turned away, told to keep their mouth shut and all that just doesn't seem like a good time to me.

JMO


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## martemchik

LaRen616 said:


> I obviously don't do this sport, but from reading this thread, it doesn't seem like a welcoming sport.
> 
> Reading about people being judged right away, being turned away, told to keep their mouth shut and all that just doesn't seem like a good time to me.
> 
> JMO


No one has said anything like this...

But it's anything. If you walk into a group of people that do X, and run your mouth and try to impress them by telling them things you've done that kind of have to do with X or that you've read about X in books or on the Internet, how are they supposed to react?

On top of that, most clubs have seen countless new people attend for a month, two months, and then fall off the map when their life gets in the way as well. This isn't a sport you do once a month or once in a while. Why would people that do it week after week take their time to work with someone who would rather read things in books and online than actually show up and see it in practice?


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## Castlemaid

You know what though? The club you visited was nice and welcoming to you. There is no reason for you not to go back and work with them. 

What happened is you came on here and started bad-mouthing them. People were trying to give you pointers about attitude since that is what you asked for (pointer for Schutzhund/IPO - attitude is everything. ). People were giving you pointers to help you succeed, because yes - people want to see you and your dog succeed, even though you are complete stranger. 

I'm not sure how this is turning into a rant of "what is wrong with IPO today" (a lot, we agree, but the training is still hard, and rewarding, and fun, and it still separates dogs that can work and those that can't). 

What don't you try IPO out first and see how things go? Otherwise this is just a rant for the sake of ranting.


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## car2ner

LaRen616 said:


> I obviously don't do this sport, but from reading this thread, it doesn't seem like a welcoming sport.
> 
> Reading about people being judged right away, being turned away, told to keep their mouth shut and all that just doesn't seem like a good time to me.



Like any other groups of people. you have to find a good fit. Clubs are as different as the people that run them. The sport is still exciting and we are finding it a great way to train our dog even basic everyday obedience. Our dog actually pesters us if we are late packing the car to go to training! 

We use the stick and the gun. We don't beat our dogs with the stick but we do use the stick to make sure they are brave enough to face the distraction and stay focused. 

We use the gun and honestly, the humans jump more than the dogs sometimes. :blush:


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## lesslis

I participate in other venues to see just what I've learned about myself and dog. I belong to a great ipo club and learn how much I don't know about myself and dog. love them both. ; )


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## lhczth

SchH/IPO is a TEAM sport. It can not be just about the dog because the dog does not go on the field and do it all on his own. The dog and the handler are a team and that team needs a support team of other people to help them achieve their goals. It may just be you and your dog on trial day, but on the way to that trial a lot of other people will have been involved. 

I was the TD for my last club for 6 years. Dealing with people who don't listen and know everything, argue with you because they read something in a book or went to a seminar, gets frustrating. After awhile you stop helping those people and let them flounder along on their own. Alienating people helps no one and definitely won't be conducive to having fun with your dog and getting her titled. 

In Germany there are a lot of clubs so people have more options. Some are very good clubs. Some not so good. Some are very open and friendly to newbies and guests. Some definitely not so nice. No different than here. There are just more of them.


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## Lilie

robk said:


> Let me help you out. To get the most out of this sport, it does take a good dog, AND it takes good people. If you have a great attitude and make some friends and people are willing to invest in you and your success you will go far. How far, does however, depend in part on your dogs genetic ability. If the dog doesn't have it, its not the end of the world and you will not be kicked out of the club. The contacts you have made will guide you in the selection of a good dog to move forward with.
> 
> We need more people in this sport. I hope you do well and really enjoy it. Be fair to your dog (don't push it past its genetic ability) and make some friends.


BEST post throughout this entire thread!!!!!!


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## Trinitys Storm

martemchik said:


> No one has said anything like this...
> 
> But it's anything. If you walk into a group of people that do X, and run your mouth and try to impress them by telling them things you've done that kind of have to do with X or that you've read about X in books or on the Internet, how are they supposed to react?
> 
> On top of that, most clubs have seen countless new people attend for a month, two months, and then fall off the map when their life gets in the way as well. This isn't a sport you do once a month or once in a while. Why would people that do it week after week take their time to work with someone who would rather read things in books and online than actually show up and see it in practice?


 Okay first off i did not just off the rip start running my mouth. I simply explained what happened when I went to the club. The pres was not friendly and looked at me like I was a waste of her time. She asked where I got my dog and basically roled her eyes at me when I told she was AKC.

Got bashed for saying that

Everyone else was very nice and answered any questions I had at the club. The topic of choice though most the time was bands and schools. Literally for like 3 hours we were there. I just expected them to be more into their dogs and not just leave them in their cars in the crate and socialize.

Got bashed for saying everyone else was nice.

Got bashed for my family breeding ASL german shepherds and told good luck when my dog doesn't bite. 

Got bashed for wanting to work my dog and title her without distractions. 

Got bashed thinking my dog could potentially have what it takes to be good at schutzhund when I've never personally done it before. If people didn't try then how would this sport go on?

I've never said that it should be like the old days. I know the training methods have changed significantly since 1899 when the first german shepherd was registered as a german shepherd! I just said that the reason schutzhund was created was to prove dogs to be worthy of working and breeding and not for hanging out with friends on the weekend with dogs working every now and then.

Boom, what happened? Got bashed for saying that.

There are countless immature things mentioned about me and my dog, which none of you know. It may seem like I was trying to be a know it all but that is not me at all.

I know some, NOT it ALL! 

Clubs are not very welcoming obviously and many of you have proven that with your words and actions towards me as a newcomer who is just EXCITED TO LEARN THIS WONDERFUL DOG SPORT WITH MY PUPPY. 

No I don't have a german imported GSD with every ancestor titled. But that WAS the beautiful thing about DVG is you don't need to have a papered purebred you could have any old mix from the pound and get him titled if they had the knack for it. 

With attitudes like many have portrayed on this thread I wouldn't be suprised if you convinced ALOT of newbies to steer clear of the "clubs". And it's a shame because I'm sure the majority of the clubs and their members are very friendly and welcoming. Just obviously not some on this thread! 

I was insulted and will not sit back and let someone who has no idea what me or my dog is capable of tell me that my family are part of the problem with AKC GSDs, My dog would be ran off the field by the trainer if he wanted too, I am too young and inexperienced to know ANYTHING, and I have a bad attitude. Yes then my attitude turns to defensive mode and could sound as if it were a BAD attitude. It's not bad, just defensive. 

I WILL stick to schutzhund and WILL compete weather it's with my puppy now or another down the road. I just will NOT be involved with any DVG clubs after the unfriendly club president and the unfriendly people of this thread. Does not seem like newbies are welcomed at all.

And please don't tell me again it's because of my attitude, go back and read the whole thread and decide for yourselves why my attitude changed when I was laughed at for saying my young puppy could do schutzhund. 

Sorry I read all the books and everything I could and am still willingly asking questions to clear up everything I can about this sport so I can do it correctly and with a purpose.

There is nothing in the books or schutzhund websites that explain how a club works by the way, that's why I asked here if my experience was normal.

I'm leaving this thread now in hopes that we can let bygones be bygones and I wish all of us have a beautiful day. People have different opinions and that's it. You can't change a person direct way of thinking. Only try to help them see BOTH parties point of views. But one can only be so lucky.



.


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## Jack's Dad

Lilie said:


> BEST post throughout this entire thread!!!!!!



Agree.

I hope you do well Trinity. If there was anything to like from this thread, take that and leave the rest, The rest will be most of the thread.

PS. I was agreeing to RobK's post and seconding Lillie.


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## martemchik

I actually wasn't saying anything about how you came off at the club. No idea how that went, wasn't there. But I see how you came off on this forum, and it's pretty comical.

No one was "bashing" you. We're just trying to tell you how it is from people that actually do it and don't just read books and websites. I think most of the stuff you got about your dog was positive...try it and see. There was one person that got confused when you said AKC and assumed it meant ASL. All of our dogs are AKC...even those from german working lines. There's actually not too many people on here with imports.

The funny things you did get teased a bit over were your opinions and use of terminology where it was clear you had no idea what you were talking about...like...schutzhund course, and "conformation for schutzhund." I've literally never heard anyone use those terms. So it was funny. And you were so sure of yourself when you used those terms.

Try to laugh a little, don't be so serious. You need to be able to laugh at yourself in this sport. Life's not that serious.


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## lesslis

Trinity, dont let a few forum posts bother you. I hear your interest and passion to work with your dog. Internet forums lack the face time to really see/hear what is said. Go out, have fun with your dog!


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## Trinitys Storm

martemchik said:


> I actually wasn't saying anything about how you came off at the club. No idea how that went, wasn't there. But I see how you came off on this forum, and it's pretty comical.
> 
> No one was "bashing" you. We're just trying to tell you how it is from people that actually do it and don't just read books and websites. I think most of the stuff you got about your dog was positive...try it and see. There was one person that got confused when you said AKC and assumed it meant ASL. All of our dogs are AKC...even those from german working lines. There's actually not too many people on here with imports.
> 
> The funny things you did get teased a bit over were your opinions and use of terminology where it was clear you had no idea what you were talking about...like...schutzhund course, and "conformation for schutzhund." I've literally never heard anyone use those terms. So it was funny. And you were so sure of yourself when you used those terms.
> 
> Try to laugh a little, don't be so serious. You need to be able to laugh at yourself in this sport. Life's not that serious.


Yea, I've realized that YOU and a few others are the one who is making schutzhund clubs look bad. 

Laughing at a new person for thinking their dog had the conformation, which makes perfect sense, for work is just straight up rude and immature. 

Laughing at someone because they've read all they could and just now felt confident enough to try it for themselves and ask a few questions about the clubs is rude and immature.

Laughing at someone for not knowing the course like the back of their hand because they've never RAN it before for is rude and immature.

And laughing at someone who was new and just asking questions about this sport because they didn't like the fact that it was said I WILL do schutzhund and compete for titles is rude and immature, I'm sorry you got the wrong impression. I was just playing around when I said they would know I'm serious when my dog is beating them of the field and this whole thing BLEW UP!

You know it's funny too that you have only been doing schutzhund for a year and you ALREADY know EVERYTHING and to have the nerve to try and convince other newbies that they can't do it because they are confident and anxious to learn. 

I've absorbed everything that was said and have made the decision that yes I am still going to do schutzhund and i still am going to be confident and anxious to train my dog as best as I can and help her achieve her maximum potential in this sport

I WILL have fun doing it also or I will not continue, including if my dog isn't having fun.

I will go back to the club when the trainer is there and see how things go then. If not for me then I have already hired a personal trainer, whom I was referred to by the schutzhund club of Orlando's president Ron so he's most likely good especially at $50 a training session, and we will not join a club but compete in USCA. 

Thank you everyone else who has pointed me in the right direction and clarifying things a bit more for me. I apologize for the rude attitude and for profiling the clubs as lacking initiative. Did not mean to come off like that. I wouldn't have asked any questions at all if I thought I knew it all!


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## ayoitzrimz

Trinity just chill, you are having an internet argument with a bunch of people that could be 12 year old kids or never stepped on a SchH field as far as you know so don't take it so seriously. 

Try a few clubs, find one that you like and that likes you and be happy. You are picking a fight for no reason. You didn't like one club that's fine - that means that this one very specific club with very specific people is not for you. There are other clubs out there so find one you like and be happy.

Good luck to you guys


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## martemchik

Trinity, I'm just trying to show you what not to say in front of actual people. If you think this is harsh, from a random person on the Internet, what do you think those that you'll be talking to in person will think if you come across with such strong conviction using wrong terminology? I'm just telling you to pump your brakes, don't make statements that will get people to think negatively of you, it's not hard. It's much easier to just not say anything and get what you want than to say the wrong thing, especially with your attitude.

I've learned the hard way that it's just better to listen to those people and not say things you've just read. Trust me, most of the stuff you read, even on this forum, is extremely biased or outdated. The people that do the sport day in and day out, they're the real experts. So when I pointed out some of those statements, it's to show you that they aren't very accurate, no one uses them, and people would definitely judge you if you were to say them with that type of conviction.

What kind of car do you drive?


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## Lilie

martemchik said:


> I've learned the hard way that it's just better to listen to those people and not say things you've just read. Trust me, most of the stuff you read, even on this forum, is extremely biased or outdated.


The OP started this thread requesting tips regarding the sport. I think you've managed to beat any life left out of this ONE tip provided. I'd think there would be at least _something_ else useful to tell her.


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## Trinitys Storm

martemchik said:


> Trinity, I'm just trying to show you what not to say in front of actual people. If you think this is harsh, from a random person on the Internet, what do you think those that you'll be talking to in person will think if you come across with such strong conviction using wrong terminology? I'm just telling you to pump your brakes, don't make statements that will get people to think negatively of you, it's not hard. It's much easier to just not say anything and get what you want than to say the wrong thing, especially with your attitude.
> 
> I've learned the hard way that it's just better to listen to those people and not say things you've just read. Trust me, most of the stuff you read, even on this forum, is extremely biased or outdated. The people that do the sport day in and day out, they're the real experts. So when I pointed out some of those statements, it's to show you that they aren't very accurate, no one uses them, and people would definitely judge you if you were to say them with that type of conviction.
> 
> What kind of car do you drive?


Martemchik, why I'm glad you asked what kind of car I drive because I was just about to make some ridiculous remark about how I don't and would never drive a car but instead a black f-250 super duty diesel because that's what real dog owners drive and that the whole back bench seat was for my puppy so when she got bigger she had plenty of space to go EVERYWHERE that I go and if I had ended up wanting another GSD then he could go too. **** I could put 20 of them bad boys in there if I got really good at schutzhund and they'd all be IPO3 multiple times over and I'd never have to worry about my truck getting stolen 

Seriously...

Anywho I'm sorry I used the incorrect terminology being the noob to this sport that I am. I'll be sure to be scared to mention anything about why I wanted to join schutzhund or my dogs pedigree or lack there of and also remember to not ask any questions but instead just stand around listening to band practice and bible school gossip and wait for them to talk about the things I had questions still on because I don't want to use the wrong terminology or come off as a know it all. And if I came off as a know it all for quoting the definition of schutzhund and saying it's not a girls social meeting then I'm sorry, I see how you would get offered by that. But also Why would a know it all ask questions in the first place? Anyways...

To everyone else whom it may concern:

I'm going to take the advice of the majority of the peoples and visit the club when it's a real training day with the TD there and see how it goes. If I get the same vibes then I'll try a few more before just going solo with a personal trainer. 
And joining the USCA. Which is most likely what I'll do now thanks to this thread honestly. But like I said not before I try again. I don't really feel like tattooing my dog anyways to compete USCA but that's just another thing to argue and be picky about. Lol:wild:


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## Trinitys Storm

ayoitzrimz said:


> Trinity just chill, you are having an internet argument with a bunch of people that could be 12 year old kids or never stepped on a SchH field as far as you know so don't take it so seriously.
> 
> Try a few clubs, find one that you like and that likes you and be happy. You are picking a fight for no reason. You didn't like one club that's fine - that means that this one very specific club with very specific people is not for you. There are other clubs out there so find one you like and be happy.
> 
> Good luck to you guys


Very well put and thank you very much. You couldn't be more accurate.


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## martemchik

You don't need a tatoo...you can have a microchip.

Notice how you don't ask questions, you make statements. Statements make you sound like you don't know what you're talking about, a question sounds like you want more information.


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## Jack's Dad

I got a feeling this thread did a wonderful job of turning new people off to IPO clubs and it's not doing the forum any good either.


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## Steve Strom

You have some skills from what you've done in the past TS, that will help with what you're going to do now. The first thing I did coming from AKC obedience and conformation was get together with the TD for some private ob and get an idea of what I would need to focus on. Conversations at the club are good, but 1 on 1, hands on with your pup and the trainer of the club, I think would be the most help to you.


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## Trinitys Storm

Jack's Dad said:


> I got a feeling this thread did a wonderful job of turning new people off to IPO clubs and it's not doing the forum any good either.


I second that. I just wanted some answers about the clubs and schutzhund and I bashed as soon as a said the pres looked uninterested in any newcomer, Even though she's the pres of the club, and when I mentioned a AKC conformation show background automatically was profiled into being a know it all, and who couldn't be told anything because I read some schutzhund books and watched some youtube videos. That is NOT what I was saying AT ALL!


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## Trinitys Storm

Steve Strom said:


> You have some skills from what you've done in the past TS, that will help with what you're going to do now. The first thing I did coming from AKC obedience and conformation was get together with the TD for some private ob and get an idea of what I would need to focus on. Conversations at the club are good, but 1 on 1, hands on with your pup and the trainer of the club, I think would be the most help to you.


Thank you I think I would benefit the most from 1 on 1 because I know basically squat about this sport except what I've read and watched. And I know that the BEST and EASIEST way for me to learn is to do it hands on. But of course that is me others may enjoy the group atmosphere and crave the support of everyone. Me, I'd rather do my own thing. Always have and have gotten into a fair share of confrontations because of being more reserved towards people. Guess I look stuck up to them because I don't need social stimulation as much. But I'll let my dog do the talking from now on


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## lalachka

Trinitys Storm said:


> Thank you I think I would benefit the most from 1 on 1 because I know basically squat about this sport except what I've read and watched. And I know that the BEST and EASIEST way for me to learn is to do it hands on. But of course that is me others may enjoy the group atmosphere and crave the support of everyone. Me, I'd rather do my own thing. Always have and have gotten into a fair share of confrontations because of being more reserved towards people. Guess I look stuck up to them because I don't need social stimulation as much. But I'll let my dog do the talking from now on


Lol you don't seem like you don't need social stimulation, at least here. Deny what we can't get, huh? Not sure of the correct term for it.

ETA you can have the best dog in the world, you need people to help train you or you will mess up your dog. But good luck. I'm also stubborn, not the worst trait to have


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## GatorDog

I don't know anyone who is successful in the sport and has done everything by themselves 100%. But if thats the attitude that you want to have, then go for it. Its not about social stimulation. Its about working with those more knowledgable than you. You seem to think you've got it all under control, so have at it. 
This thread is stupid.


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## Jarkko

lhczth said:


> SchH/IPO is a TEAM sport. It can not be just about the dog because the dog does not go on the field and do it all on his own.


Yes, definitely a team sport, but I have a different angle to this. This is what I had to learn: the dog is trained by a TEAM consisting of a handler, a helper and one or more "helper handlers" (don't really know how these people are called in english, I mean people who act as a "pole" etc).


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## cliffson1

We're still running people away, whether it be outdated experienced people, or know it all inexperienced people. .....I suggest that you give that club a shot. i think that you might be pleasantly surprised at the good people you meet. Sometimes, training directors are very similar to the way you describe yourself, in that they are very good with dogs, but take longer to warm up to people in general....still they wouldn't be there if it wasn't about the dogs.


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