# Please critique (non-stacked)



## Rainer

What does everyone think? Rainer will 9 months old in a couple of weeks. He weighed in last week at almost 84lbs. I tried to get him stacked, but it's hard! Haha he doesn't like leaving his back legs so far out. Any opinions would be appreciated...please be kind!

















His head shot 









As a side note...the fur on the insides of his front and back legs has been growing in black and I'm noticing more stray black strands growing on his shoulders. Anyone else experience this? 









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## GsdLoverr729

I can't critique, and Koda only lightened up as she grew up. But Rainer is a very handsome guy!!!


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## carmspack

too difficult to see the dog in this picture format


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## Rainer

carmspack said:


> too difficult to see the dog in this picture format


What do you mean "in this picture format"? 


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## Rainer

Are any of these pics a little more helpful?  Just took them while we were outside playing...


























These probable aren't helpful, but just in case


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## 1sttimeforgsd

Can't help you with the critique, just wanted to say Rainer is a handsome boy.


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## msvette2u

He's very handsome but something is quite wrong on his front legs/feet and he's very easty-westy. His front feet ought to point straight ahead. 
Have you had a vet check them? I ask because elbow dysplasia can present as east/west feet.


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## Rainer

Hmm I had noticed his front feet tended to do that. Do you think it may have to do with his growth? I try to keep him lean but he's still pretty much putting on 10lbs a month....he can't seem to slow down.

Forgot to add...he's not showing any discomfort or lameness at all.


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## msvette2u

No, even growing dogs should not look like that. I think his pasterns may be down, too. Perhaps the cause. 
Where did the puppy come from? Breeder, rescue?


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## carmspack

feet will always turn out a bit , I don't see him that easty-westy to say there is something quite wrong, possibly elbow dysplasia .

This is a young dog. 
He is not in condition yet , he is not mature , yet, he has not filled out in the front , yet. He won't be a broad dog - that is not his build .
He does have long flat feet , open toes , and long pasterns which need to tighten up, which can be brought along by feeding for ligament and cartilage integrity.

At this moment he appears to be flat whithered , back higher , short in the upper arm , and have a short and steep croup. He appears to be moving heavy , and falling down on his front .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Zeeva

msvette2u said:


> something is quite wrong on his front legs/feet and he's very easty-westy. His front feet ought to point straight ahead.
> Have you had a vet check them? I ask because elbow dysplasia can present as east/west feet.


Doesn't the east westy feet sometimes present in pups whose chest hasn't dropped yet?


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## Xeph

> Doesn't the east westy feet sometimes present in pups whose chest hasn't dropped yet?


Yes.

I have an adult male who still turns out in the front. Chest didn't develop the way I had hoped, but his elbows are totally normal


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## wildo

My critique would be to post a picture of him showing confidence. In all the overall pictures you posted, he is holding his head low. Compare this completely random photo I pulled off of google images:









...to yours:









The first dog is holding his head up, neck up. Commanding attention. He portrays strength and confidence to me. And I'm not saying your dog _isn't_ strong or confident. I'm saying those pictures of his head lowered don't show him commanding attention. Just something to think about.


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## lorihd

I dont critique, but i love his coat, very handsome boy


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## Rainer

carmspack said:


> feet will always turn out a bit , I don't see him that easty-westy to say there is something quite wrong, possibly elbow dysplasia .
> 
> This is a young dog.
> He is not in condition yet , he is not mature , yet, he has not filled out in the front , yet. He won't be a broad dog - that is not his build .
> He does have long flat feet , open toes , and long pasterns which need to tighten up, which can be brought along by feeding for ligament and cartilage integrity.
> 
> At this moment he appears to be flat whithered , back higher , short in the upper arm , and have a short and steep croup. He appears to be moving heavy , and falling down on his front .
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


Carmspack, thank you for responding! I was going to try to PM you and get your thoughts about his pasterns. What can I give him to help him out with strengthening those ligaments?



wildo said:


> My critique would be to post a picture of him showing confidence. In all the overall pictures you posted, he is holding his head low. Compare this completely random photo I pulled off of google images:
> 
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> ...to yours:
> 
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> 
> The first dog is holding his head up, neck up. Commanding attention. He portrays strength and confidence to me. And I'm not saying your dog _isn't_ strong or confident. I'm saying those pictures of his head lowered don't show him commanding attention. Just something to think about.


Wildo, he's actually pissed at me in that picture cuz I was stopping him from going to his flirt pole LOL He is also a very mellow dog that will only command attention when he really wants it...most other times he just would rather be in his world hunting down tracks, he's not intense like the dog in the pic you posted. He IS very independent, strong willed, and reserved though. Very hard to keep his head up when his nose is always to the ground  I do see what you're saying though, and I think as he matures he'll be better. He's content being an ADD teenager, butt head for now


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## wildo

Haha! Well in that case, carry on...


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## msvette2u

I do really like his coloration. It's my second-favorite color pattern in the GSD


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## carmspack

Wildo his conformation won't allow him to look like the dark sable. He is flat in the whithers (lower than the back) which changes the way the neck fits into the shoulder , changes the girdle of muscles , changes the dogs ability to open up and reach , which is why he looks to be moving heavy on the front . Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

you can see it here 



wish those pictures could expand to the same size as the others .
You can see that his back is higher than the withers .

and here


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## Xeph

> The first dog is holding his head up, neck up. Commanding attention. He portrays strength and confidence to me.


That dog is undoubtedly being doubled, lol


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## carmspack

it has nothing to do with being doubled. The conformation is what allows him to present himself like this (meaning the dark sable). That's a long upper arm , longer neck, higher wither allowing for longer muscles . Conformation is the mechanics of the dog.


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## Xeph

Carmen, I know that, thanks. But the alert expression and what not that wildo mentioned also comes from doubling.


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## carmspack

wildo said:


> My critique would be to post a picture of him showing confidence. In all the overall pictures you posted, he is holding his head low. Compare this completely random photo I pulled off of google images:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...to yours:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> The first dog is holding his head up, neck up. Commanding attention. He portrays strength and confidence to me. And I'm not saying your dog _isn't_ strong or confident. I'm saying those pictures of his head lowered don't show him commanding attention. Just something to think about.


 
No , Wildo said "first dog holding his head up , neck up" -- then uses a picture of the OP's dog head up , neck up , but looking sideways. Even if the dog faced forward the head and neck could not be much higher. 

Let's make a challenge to the OP to get a similar picture then .


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## Rainer

[email protected] said:


> I dont critique, but i love his coat, very handsome boy





msvette2u said:


> I do really like his coloration. It's my second-favorite color pattern in the GSD


*Thank you  I wish his black was a little blacker sometimes, but I love running my hands through his coat and seeing all the different shades in his fur *



carmspack said:


> it has nothing to do with being doubled. The conformation is what allows him to present himself like this (meaning the dark sable). That's a long upper arm , longer neck, higher wither allowing for longer muscles . Conformation is the mechanics of the dog.


*Carmspack, do you think it's possible that he's throwing most of his weight forward because of his pasterns? If they tighten up and become straighter, wouldn't that shift some of his weight forward? I tend to think his head stays lower because he's just constantly trying to keep his balance ??*



carmspack said:


> No , Wildo said "first dog holding his head up , neck up" -- then uses a picture of the OP's dog head up , neck up , but looking sideways. Even if the dog faced forward the head and neck could not be much higher.
> 
> Let's make a challenge to the OP to get a similar picture then .


*Here's my best attempt! He's never been stacked before and I didn't have anyone helping me, so it was quite the challenge! Also posted the other pics that wouldn't expand *


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## wildo

I don't know what "being doubled" means. I'm also surprised that the conformation of the dog doesn't allow for the head to be held high. That would explain why the OP said she rarely sees the dog with his head held high like that.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/94556-how-stack.html
might help.


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## wildo

Xeph said:


> But the alert expression and what not that wildo mentioned also comes from doubling.


Hmmmm... now I am really interested in this. I can't find any reference to "doubled" or "doubling" in conformation via google. Please explain.


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## carmspack

doubled is double handling -- someone standing outside the frame of the picture tempting the dog with a piece of treats or a squeaky toy --

you know this -- the baby photographer's "watch the birdy"


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## wildo

Oh, I see. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Maybe the pic I choose randomly off of google images wasn't a good comparison since it's a working line. I simply looked for a dog that held its head high. To me, this showed confidence and alertness. I agree that the same look can be had from holding a treat or toy or whatever.

What I apparently _didn't_ know is that this head position may be only correlated to confidence and alertness. I didn't realize that it is also a direct affect of the actual conformation of the dog. I didn't realize that the dog might not actually be able to hold his head up like this. I'd love to hear from the OP about the dog's ability to lift his head. The OP mentioned that the dog does not lift his head much at all. If you wouldn't mind sharing, I know I would be very curious to hear what his actual range of motion in the neck is. Can he lift his head further passed what you have shown here? Or is that about the top of his range of motion?










BTW- is the ability to lift the neck high called "ewe necked?"


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## carmspack

the lifting the head is not for the look of eagles - it all has to do with movement .

The GSD does not run with its head high . That impedes forward motion . Once again using a favourite example of a beautiful front AND level back "von Lord Fandor"

Our dog being critiqued -- does not have a flowing topline 
from neck into the back , there is a knick and then you have a curving of the back - a little roach , which moves into a short and steep croup. Look to the vertical white line in the picture to mark the spot where this happens.

Look to this picture . This gives you the opportunity to see the parts of the topline, neck, withers , back and croup separated .








look how that long upper arm and the balance in proportions of the front leg and shoulders allow this dog to draw the leg up and back -- the shoulders open . As far as the upper arm can go back - it can go forward . 
A dog that is restricted will be shorter each way , needing more repetitions , more steps to cover the same distance as an ideal front . This is why conformation is so important for the herding dog that needs to cover great distance over a long duration of time. Even though the flock of sheep may only move a mile or two , and in its mass , when together , may be 300 feet , that GSD is moving back and forth , back and forth , hundreds of times per day which becomes great accumulated distance.
In this picture of Hetty you can separate the front , withers-shoulder, upper arm, forearm. Then you see the smooth flow of the back - level - flowing into the croup.

The fixation with the head up -- earlier I had said the GSD does NOT run with its head up -- not when correct in conformation. 
Look to this 



 Those dogs can NOT run with a level topline . They DO run with their heads up , because the neck and the roach in the back won't allow them to straighten out . Prepared for someone to say , well they do this because they are held back and are straining against the lead . Keep looking to the handlers running off lead marked by 4:16 time
or 



 or mark 37 here 



 
So, the OP's dog is true to his genetics -- but not as extreme 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack

here is the other dog I was thinking of , our forum member phgsd's Kessy , a brand new HGH !!!! balanced in conformation









Click this bar to view the full image.









in true tending style 

PAM ARCH SG1 Kessy vom Waldwinkel - German Shepherd Dog


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## wildo

Yes, I really enjoy Kessy's conformation- I've mentioned that to phgsd in PM.  And I see what you mean about running with the head down. In watching Kessy's herding videos, I can appreciate all the things you tell us about why conformation is important. What a nice dog!

But back to the OP's dog- I'm confused by the point you're making Carmen between a static position (the stack) and motion. In motion, you're saying the dog's head should be down. Ok. But for the stack, shouldn't the dog's head be up? Isn't there a difference between a static pose and an in-motion shot? I guess that's where I'm not following you.

And to be clear, you might be noticing that the OP's dog's head _is_ up. For me, I was thinking that the OP's dog's head was _not_ up.


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## carmspack

The OP's dog's head is up . He can't put it up more. 
In motion he can't run with a level topline -- that is why he is falling forward and heavy on the front , not the pasterns -- the back .


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## wildo

carmspack said:


> The OP's dog's head is up . He can't put it up more.


Gotchya. Thanks!


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## carmspack

I was answering the OP's question , why does he fall heavy on the front - their thinking was the soft pasterns and asked whether once the pastern's ligaments tightened up whether this would level him out. Answer , no , the back won't allow for this smooth topline. This is contrary to the needs of a breed that needs to cover distance over long duration of time . Deviations will cause strain and pain .


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## Rainer

Hey there. Sorry, I was at work and unable to respond. I'm on lunch now and just read through it all. 

Wildo, he can hold his head a little higher up if he is interested in something in the distance (or attempting to steal something off the counter). I think if I had someone to "double" he may have held his head higher, but probably not like the sable you posted. 

He seems to run with his head down though....maybe I'll try to have someone take a pic of him chasing his flirt pole to see. Or is it only in a trot that they (should) hold their head down? Hmmm...

Carmen, the examples of balanced conformation you've posted look to be all working line....is this something with the show lines? Or is it possibly just bad genetics? Is there anything I can do to help/when he matures will he balance out a little more or "it is what it is." He is currently eating Fromm surf n turf (low protein, ash, Ca, and P) with grizzly salmon oil, an occasional raw egg (don't give him oil those days), supplemented with some raw (chicken feet, turkey necks, chicken hearts...). I also ordered Nupro joint care with glucosamine to add to his food. Is there something I can feed to help with the pasterns, specifically, or just overall in general?


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## Xeph

> Is there anything I can do to help/when he matures will he balance out a little more or "it is what it is."


Not Carmen, but it is what it is. Branko (the dog Wildo posted) is a beautifully structured working line dog. I also like Kessy (the dog posted above), though I don't particularly care for that movement shot, as she looks to be moving from the elbow (incorrect and inefficient). That said, she's still doing the work.

There is a problem in the WGSL with withers that appear high, but are really quite flat, and so you have dogs with heads that are held *forward* not *up*


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## carmspack

Kessy's movement is balanced. She is an efficient trotting animal , in spite of being a little short on the upper arm . She was used to illustrate the level topline .


A few recent shots of Ruger at 15 months  
Attached Thumbnails   

__________________
Honor Von Kaltwasser (GSD) aka "Ruger" 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-detai...von-Kaltwasser

http://fayettevilleschutzhundclub.us/ 

Here is RobK's dog --- that is an excellent example of a smooth harmonious topline . Neck flowing into level back into croup -- one unbroken line . Rear powerful. For Wildo's benefit the place I would fault this animal is a somewhat short upper arm -- and front feet , which are flat and long toed - other than that beautiful dog . 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## robk

carmspack said:


> Kessy's movement is balanced. She is an efficient trotting animal , in spite of being a little short on the upper arm . She was used to illustrate the level topline .
> 
> 
> A few recent shots of Ruger at 15 months
> Attached Thumbnails
> 
> __________________
> Honor Von Kaltwasser (GSD) aka "Ruger"
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-detai...von-Kaltwasser
> 
> http://fayettevilleschutzhundclub.us/
> 
> Here is RobK's dog --- that is an excellent example of a smooth harmonious topline . Neck flowing into level back into croup -- one unbroken line . Rear powerful. For Wildo's benefit the place I would fault this animal is a somewhat short upper arm -- and front feet , which are flat and long toed - other than that beautiful dog .
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


Thanks Carmen, I am going to post a thread for Ruger's Critique. He is very nice but not perfect. He does have a small amount of roach, (in my opinion).


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## wildo

Oh- for my sake!  Thanks Carmen, I missed that at first. I am sure everyone is learning as well, not just me!


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## carmspack

NO ROACH in Ruger -- if you thinks so show me a better back


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## Xeph

That Ruger is one handsome dude!


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## carmspack

this dog is standing relaxed four square . His withers are not flat , they are higher than the back .
A dog with flat withers - OP's as sample , will fall forward in motion . 
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

Canto Wienerau , aside from power and politics , was as popular as he was for the time , and used to effect by lines which have long since split and become known as "working" , because he was compact and had a good strong back and topline . 

giving credit where credit is due V1 Canto von der Wienerau - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack

good topline








Lacy (aristakrat's dog)


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## Rainer

Rainer is now 15 months old and was wondering how he seems to be maturing in comparison to his 9 month old photos  He is starting to fill out a little. He is at 83lbs and 27in now...

9 months










15 months


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## x11

OP nice boy but if you don't mind i would like Carmen to expand on some of her points, breeders keep referring back to the same old line of conformation = efficiency of gait = trotting all day.....i am simplifying the words but i think you get my drift. honestly not trying to be belligerent but how do you match what you say with the facts - why not just do a series of endurance tests to REALLY see if what you say is true, have an actual endurance race that might go for several days - put yr high theory to the test, the images of gsd's running alongside a mob of sheep i would like to see them qualified a bit more, breeders have been out to my place and taken pictures of their gsd standing next to sheep to show they are legit or even running past them - the dogs are typically inept and the images i have seen on my place by breeders are designed to mislead, not saying yours are, i do not allow them on property now. how many 12, 14, 20 hour days do the conformation champs actually do herding sheep - ANY???

why is that no other herder looks that way, kelpie, BC and literally thousands of those dogs DO herd sheep all day evryday. do the commercial (non-trial) herding communitty rate the gsd as a legitimate herding dog?

my point is the on-line game of dog conformation theory is slick but does not match the actual facts on the ground, if it does show me evidence with more than photos or 2 minute vids.

apologies to OP for the hi-jack.


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## carmspack

well Kessy , is one of those dogs that do , so are Herr Baumann's dogs - look at Hetty "von Lord Fandor"

I have several AD's -- , several dogs that would run beside me to town 11 ks' one way , stop at the local family lunch spot beside the park and arena , where the dog would be tied in the shade grass while I stopped for a break . I've had a dog that belonged to a pro competitive winning sled dog racer that would run along the dogs in training exercises from Blackstock to Orono 20 miles out and 20 miles back in one day without fatiguing --- right along side them , uneven terrain, backroads, crown lands and lands owned by gravel companies . Been on one of those myself .
Dogs in police service , rural - RCMP -- , constantly on the move.

who is talking about "conformation champs " -- that is not functional conformation -- and kelpies and border collies do not have the same herding style . GSD are boundary dogs , confining the sheep as a living fence .


map shows direct road -- we went as the crow flies zig zagging through private lands (with permission) , adding some extra miles so actually more than the 28 k's 




*Search Results*



Blackstock, ON
30 mins
Orono, ON

28.7 km


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## martemchik

OP, work on stacking him. It only takes 5-10 stacks a day for a week for the dog to get used to being put in that position. It really makes critiques easier and puts your dog in a better light. I can see from the two pictures you recently posted that not much has changed, but if you stack him you can get him to stretch out a bit and it would be easier to see his proportions.


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## ladydi

I love reading through these posts it is so interesting and I am learning so much. One thing I have noticed is on a lot of these dogs the people critiquing have mention a short upper arm, short in comparison to what. I can see the high, low, flat withers and the long, short steep croup but I for some reason can not see a short upper arm, all the dogs upper arms seem to be shorter than their forearms. I am hoping we are all like minded in that there are know stupid questions. It took me a long time to learn diagnals on a horse too. Just couldn't see it at first.


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## carmspack

in most of the pictures the dog looks very tight , tense, not comfortable , in one you have that sideways eye and the nose flick. Stacking him to look like the dark sable male from the PDB is going to be very difficult . Next set of pictures take the dog out for a very vigorous run first to get him to relax - get those endorphins going.


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