# What type of Aggression is this?



## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

What type of aggression is this? I am thinking fear. The only reason I ask is her tail is up.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I hope someone with a lot of experience answers this. 
I don't see any aggression, just a dog alerting to something on the other side of the door. (what WAS on the other side of the door???)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I couldn't tell you either, unless you opened that door so we could see how she reacted to whatever was on the other side.

If someone was on the other side of the door banging on it, I'd say she was alert barking,,


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Territorial. You see plenty of dogs that bark ferociously behind a dor or fence. VERY different than face to face.

BTW- are you military?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

gagsd said:


> Territorial. You see plenty of dogs that bark ferociously behind a dor or fence. VERY different than face to face.
> 
> BTW- are you military?


 

LMAO i was going to ask the same thing! its the way he talks to rabbit. I would also agree thats its territorial but without know her reaction to what was on the other side of the door thats about all i can say.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

*BTW- are you military?*

LOL, glad I wasn't the only one who wanted to ask that!


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

She was going beserk at the landscapers who had a leaf blower. If I had opened that door she would have charged and bitten. She charges the pool man and he has to block her bites with his equipment. Her name is Rabbit. We got her 3-4 months ago from a crowded GSD rescue.

Nah Im not military, too scared.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

My husband is military. I dont respond well to people yelling at me or telling me what to do. She responds well to commands. Very pretty dog. Good luck with her. Least you know you're house is safe with her there!!!


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

I know all the yelling is obnoxious. Im new at this and I don't like to yell but my dogs seem to respond better under distraction to military style commands and that is also how my trainer gives commands (I suspect he is ex military). 

Also there is a loud leaf blower you can hear in the background, requiring me to project loudly.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I had the volume off but dogs respond much better to training them what you want them to do then yelling at them for what you don't want them to do. Without the sound, I noticed Rabbit showing signs of stress and I would guess it was a response to the yelling. 

She seems to be territorial and have barrier frustration, both traitsGSDs are known for. I wouldn't suggest letting her charge out the door and hoping people can fend off her biting them. She needs better management but not in the form of yelling or physical punishment. For example, instead of retraining and punishing the territorial behavior teach Rabbit to run to a specific area and wait (such as a mat away from the door) when she hears someone out front. I have a very territorial Belgian and was able to teach her to come to the back room at work when customers came in the front. So instead of barking and wanting to grab at people over the gate, she would bark once and run into the back room. 

One other reason to teach a specific behavior instead of just relying on physically restraining and intimidating the dogs is that the Lab's behavior made me think there may be a tendency towards redirected aggression with her. If she ends up grabbing the GSD (redirecting) while the GSD is "after" whatever is on the other side of the door you could have a fight on your hands. It would be best all around to get them to tone down the front door behavior.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> I had the volume off but dogs respond much better to training them what you want them to do then yelling at them for what you don't want them to do. Without the sound, I noticed Rabbit showing signs of stress and I would guess it was a response to the yelling.
> 
> She seems to be territorial and have barrier frustration, both traitsGSDs are known for. I wouldn't suggest letting her charge out the door and hoping people can fend off her biting them. She needs better management but not in the form of yelling or physical punishment. For example, instead of retraining and punishing the territorial behavior teach Rabbit to run to a specific area and wait (such as a mat away from the door) when she hears someone out front. I have a very territorial Belgian and was able to teach her to come to the back room at work when customers came in the front. So instead of barking and wanting to grab at people over the gate, she would bark once and run into the back room.
> 
> One other reason to teach a specific behavior instead of just relying on physically restraining and intimidating the dogs is that the Lab's behavior made me think there may be a tendency towards redirected aggression with her. If she ends up grabbing the GSD (redirecting) while the GSD is "after" whatever is on the other side of the door you could have a fight on your hands. It would be best all around to get them to tone down the front door behavior.


I think that if you were to watch the video again with sound you would clearly see that Rabbit's barking is in response to the leaf blower and land scapers. It is not a response to my commands. 


Haha we don't let her charge the front door. That is the guest house door and there are land scapers in the backyard working. We always take precautions. 

We are not worried about our yellow lab butters, attacking Rabbit. He submits to her everytime. 

I don't rely on physical intimidation and restraining, usually. I try to use corrections (collar tugs and verbal "Eeh!"), obedience (getting her to sit and down while in drive), and redirection (tennis ball). If you notice during 90% of the video she is free to go where she pleases. 

I appreciate the responses and comments.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

pac liter said:


> I think that if you were to watch the video again with sound you would clearly see that Rabbit's barking is in response to the leaf blower and land scapers. It is not a response to my commands.


 Obviously the barking is not a response to your commands. As I said it appears to be territorial behavior combined with barrier frustration. 




pac liter said:


> Haha we don't let her charge the front door. That is the guest house door and there are land scapers in the backyard working. We always take precautions.


 I was responding to your comment that your landscapers have had to fend your dog off with their tools. That is not taking precautions.



pac liter said:


> We are not worried about our yellow lab butters, attacking Rabbit. He submits to her everytime.


 Redirected aggression has nothing to do with dominance or submission. It is a pretty common behavior in high arousal settings. It is hard to see what the Lab is doing but it looks as though he grabbed at her at around 30 seconds. Maybe he didn't. There is always a risk of redirected aggression when there is barrier frustration and/or guarding behavior involving something the dogs can never get to. I actually know of a smaller mixed breed dog (35 lbs) who killed an older, much larger Greyhound because of redirected aggression. 

This video shows a bit of redirected aggression:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Redirected Aggression - We have a boxer that does this. We believe it's because she feels a situation is out of control. If anyone goofs around in the least little way, Sierra will turn on Jax. Normally, Sierra is submissive to Jax except in these situations. Ex: I walked by the couch and grabbed DH's sock and gave it a tug. He laughed and moved quickly to grab my hand. I gave a low shriek. Sierra turned on Jax. It has nothing to do with submission or even another dog. It's a reaction to a situation.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for responding however I disagree with your points. 



AgileGSD said:


> Without the sound, I noticed Rabbit showing signs of stress and I would guess it was a response to the yelling.





AgileGSD said:


> Obviously the barking is not a response to your commands. As I said it appears to be territorial behavior combined with barrier frustration.


Not sure what you mean here. 







AgileGSD said:


> I was responding to your comment that your landscapers have had to fend your dog off with their tools. That is not taking precautions.


That was the pool guy and it was in the backyard. Incident was in the past so that doesn't happen anymore, hence the "we take precautions". 






AgileGSD said:


> Redirected aggression has nothing to do with dominance or submission. It is a pretty common behavior in high arousal settings. It is hard to see what the Lab is doing but it looks as though he grabbed at her at around 30 seconds. Maybe he didn't. There is always a risk of redirected aggression when there is barrier frustration and/or guarding behavior involving something the dogs can never get to. I actually know of a smaller mixed breed dog (35 lbs) who killed an older, much larger Greyhound because of redirected aggression.


I think it has something to do with dominance. If a lower pack animal tries to redirect aggression on a higher pack animal, the higher pack member will usually not just stand there and accept the aggression but instead respond back. 

The lower member learns that it not OK redirect anger at higher members and the problem is solved. Sometimes the lower pack member needs to be reminded of the pack order, but these are minor corrections adminstered through a short growl, bark, or some play. 

There are plenty of cases where a small breed like a chihuahua dominates a bigger dog such as a GSD. A dominant dog will usually not accept aggression from a lower member. A dominant dog will not rationalize the type of aggression and think "Oh that was redirected aggression so I will let it slide". He/she will likely correct the aggression, regardless of the type of aggression.

At least this is how it plays out with my dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

pac liter said:


> I think it has something to do with dominance. If a lower pack animal tries to redirect aggression on a higher pack animal, the higher pack member will usually not just stand there and accept the aggression but instead respond back.
> 
> *The lower member learns that it not OK redirect anger at higher members and the problem is solved.* Sometimes the lower pack member needs to be reminded of the pack order, but these are minor corrections adminstered through a short growl, bark, or some play.
> .


No, they don't so No, it's not. I'm glad it works out that way in your house but there is more to redirected aggression than what you are perceiving.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

pac liter said:


> I think it has something to do with dominance. If a lower pack animal tries to redirect aggression on a higher pack animal, the higher pack member will usually not just stand there and accept the aggression but instead respond back.
> 
> The lower member learns that it not OK redirect anger at higher members and the problem is solved. Sometimes the lower pack member needs to be reminded of the pack order, but these are minor corrections adminstered through a short growl, bark, or some play.
> 
> ...


This is NOT how it works in my house. When my middle child got a little worked up and redirected onto my older male who is currently higher in the pack, what I got was a dog fight. Middle child redirected because he was so worked up that he was no longer thinking and chose to lash out at what was closest- Older male. Older male came back big- but middle child had lost his brain somewhere and had no concept for what was happening anymore and fought back even though he wouldn't normally challenge him. 

I would stop her and redirect her into something else.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions. I will keep a close eye on things. Honestly I don't think I will ever be able stop her defensive barking. It is just something that will have to be managed. If my dogs started fighting, well that would really suck. 

BTW upon rereading Fogle's "The Dog's Mind" I was reminded that territorial aggression can be a mixture of fear aggression and dominance aggression. Hence the tail up and charging (dominant aggression) and ears back (fear aggression) while barking. I think her bark sounds rather frantic and fear based too.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Does she respond the same to people out off of your property? 

She's a pretty girl.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

pac liter said:


> Not sure what you mean here.


 You asked "what kind of aggression is this". My reply was territorial aggression/barrier frustration.





pac liter said:


> That was the pool guy and it was in the backyard. Incident was in the past so that doesn't happen anymore, hence the "we take precautions".


 That's good to hear :thumbup:






pac liter said:


> I think it has something to do with dominance. If a lower pack animal tries to redirect aggression on a higher pack animal, the higher pack member will usually not just stand there and accept the aggression but instead respond back.


 The idea that "dominance" is the cause of most dog behavior is pretty outdated. Redirected aggression can happened between any two dogs and is usually an issue when there is barrier frustration going on. 



pac liter said:


> The lower member learns that it not OK redirect anger at higher members and the problem is solved. Sometimes the lower pack member needs to be reminded of the pack order, but these are minor corrections adminstered through a short growl, bark, or some play.


 Or sometimes there are injuries or a great big dog fight.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> Does she respond the same to people out off of your property?
> 
> She's a pretty girl.


Her aggression is definately stronger on the property. But still she used to freak out on kids, bicycles, and blue collar workers while on walk but she has improved considerably. Once I started using a pinch she was more reluctant to show aggression. 

Thanks for the compliment.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> Or sometimes there are injuries or a great big dog fight.


Well maybe that is how your pack behaves but fortunately not my dogs. Maybe the day will come when my dogs do get into a bloody serious fight. Im sure that you will be around to point out that you were right and I was wrong. 

As for the other points. I have to walk away from those. You win. Hooray for you!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

pac liter said:


> Well maybe that is how your pack behaves but fortunately not my dogs. Maybe the day will come when my dogs do get into a bloody serious fight. Im sure that you will be around to point out that you were right and I was wrong.


 It's how dogs act. It is not something I have personally had a problem with but dogs who gets as aroused as Rabbit with barrier frustration are at a high risk for it or triggering it in other dogs. It has nothing to do with "dominance". 



pac liter said:


> As for the other points. I have to walk away from those. You win. Hooray for you!


 Funny that you posted asking for opinions on dog behavior only to get bent out of shape over the answers and start lecturing about dominance theory.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

Well if you read my posts I appreciate all the responses besides yours. 

Good luck with your dogs and their redirected aggression. Must be stressful.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't think you understand the concept of redirected aggression. 

Though you have not yet had a dog fight due to it, you may some day. 

Rabbit gets riled up because she's trying to protect her territory, but she CAN'T protect it because she's being blocked from what she's trying to protect it from. She gets frustrated and takes it out on Butters. Not necessarily intentionally, but just out of pure frustration.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

pac liter said:


> Well if you read my posts I appreciate all the responses besides yours.
> 
> Good luck with your dogs and their redirected aggression. Must be stressful.


I'm positive you don't understand the concept of redirected aggression. You apparently don't understand the concept of being civil either. AgileGSD is someone whom always gives good, level-headed, advice. 

Not completely sure why you feel the need to be so disrespectful to her but when you ask for opinions on a public message board you are bound to get information you don't agree with. If you don't like it then ignore it. She was just giving her opinion of what she saw in your video and what you said in your post.


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## pac liter (Jul 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I'm positive you don't understand the concept of redirected aggression. You apparently don't understand the concept of being civil either. AgileGSD is someone whom always gives good, level-headed, advice.


 
Redirected aggression is when a dog gets over stimualted by something that it can not reach, usually because of a fence, wall, etc. The frustration leads the dog to focus their aggression on something else, usually a dog. 



Jax08 said:


> Not completely sure why you feel the need to be so disrespectful to her but when you ask for opinions on a public message board you are bound to get information you don't agree with. If you don't like it then ignore it. She was just giving her opinion of what she saw in your video and what you said in your post.


Actually it is my right to disagree with inaccurate information and explain why. So is it ok to state there was no neck grabbing on the video? Because there wasn't, I was there. 

Sorry Agile for saying "Good luck with your dogs and their redirected aggression. Must be stressful". That was out of line. 

cheers


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