# Very disappointed..



## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

So an update on my puppy. I have decided to keep the stinker even though he will probably cost me a couple thousand more down the line because I don't think he'll be able to find a nice home if I took him back to the breeder; besides, I really like the little guy. 

However, I'm really disappointed with his breeder. This overbite is something that could not have gone unnoticed because I know the breeder kept back a male and female from this litter hence meaning this litter was most likely closely monitored for evaluation. Yet, NEVER ONCE did the breeder ever mention his overbite to me; in fact, I was the one who found it out and called him about it. Since I initially called him about the overbite I have emailed him with the pictures and called him 3 times. The first time he picked up and said he would call me back. No call. Tried again twice over the last week and it went to a full voicemail box. I do not like calling someone everyday so I give them the chance to call me back. 

Today I finally got fed up and emailed him about it, saying how I was disappointed with how this was being handled and what they were going to do about the problem. I stated I most prefer monetary compensation because I can't have more then 2 dogs right now. I also mentioned that I had already gone ahead and gotten his lower canines removed because both my regular vet and a canine dental specialist, both who have been in their respective fields over 30 years, stated the lower canines were cutting his upper gums and must come out. 

I get an email back saying he was disappointed in me in how I handled the situation and for electing to undergo expensive surgery when it was unnecessary and he wouldn't have done it. Wow, I was dumbfounded. What exactly did I do wrong in handling this situation? I tried contacting him several times; he said he tried to call me back ONCE and it went to voicemail. There is no history of it on my phone and my phone hasn't been off this week, though that isn't to say I think he's lying, things happen. The part that really gets me is where he said the surgery was unnecessary. I mean, are you serious? I was told by two very experienced vets, one a canine dental specialist no less, that his lower canines were CUTTING his upper gums and MUST come out and you're saying the surgery was unnecessary?!?  I'm sorry, but I trust my vet more in terms of canine health (though not in nutrition). 

For what it's worth, the breeder did offer me a replacement puppy if his overbite does not correct itself, but I am no longer interested in dealing with this lackluster breeder; I was only interested in this one litter anyway because of the sire. And no monetary compensation, which didn't surprise me I knew his policy on it anyway. Personally I feel like I was cheated. Surprisingly enough he comes highly recommended. I wonder why. :crazy:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am so sorry And while some think that overbite could correct itself, whether it does or doesn't, I still would have done exactly what you did, remove those canines to give him some relief..

I would be very disappointed in HIM(breeder) as well. And I think it probably changes my perception of him. 

I'm so glad your attached to him, he's such a cute boy..I will pm you something..


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm sorry your pup is having such a problem with his teeth. I'm not surprised that the breeder isn't refunding your money though; most contracts specify returning the pup for a replacement, knowing most people won't return their pups once they have them.

I don't know that I would be removing teeth at such an early age though. Their bite can change a lot while they are growing. Maybe you only pulled the baby teeth?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Elaine, he has a really severe overbite, look for his past postings, he showed pics,,it's bad


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I would have done exactly the same thing too. 

How is the little guy?


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I am sorry you have had a bad experience with your breeder. It just dumbfounds me that people are like this.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Elaine, he has a really severe overbite, look for his past postings, he showed pics,,it's bad


I'll take your word for it. Most overbites aren't that bad, but a severe one can be a big problem and they most likely won't grow into it. Then I might be pulling teeth too.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

elaine here it is http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/161010-overbite-problem-2.html#post2168860 Link #14


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> elaine here it is http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/161010-overbite-problem-2.html#post2168860 Link #14


Thanks for the link. I seriously have no idea how to look things up on here and don't use any of the other functions either. 

That is one severe overbite and after looking at the pics, I would be pulling teeth for sure.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no problem, and it's taken me quite awhile to figure computer stuff out, and I still can't figure some things out


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This sounds like a lose-lose situation. I would not expect the breeder to refund money. Standard procedure is replacing the dog. If the buyer does not like this, other agreements should be made before money/dog changes hands.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry to hear that you've had such a bad experience! I hope he's doing well after having the teeth pulled.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Liesje said:


> This sounds like a lose-lose situation. I would not expect the breeder to refund money. Standard procedure is replacing the dog. If the buyer does not like this, other agreements should be made before money/dog changes hands.


I did not expect him to reimburse me, I just thought i would try anyway. I was fine with a dog replacement when money exchanged hands, however I no longer feel the breeder is trustworthy since these recent events and have no desire to take a replacement from his kennel. I cut my losses and will no longer be going back to him in the future. My problem was not the denied request for monetary compensation; my problem was with how they handled the situation. It's a problem that they were aware of long before this puppy was sent to me and I was never notified.

On another note, Kaiser has been doing just fine since surgery. He was back to his normal self that same night, lol. If anything I think he's gotten more puppy crazies. Is that a good or bad thing? :laugh:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did the Dentist say what s/he thought the adult tooth alignment outcome would be or give you any options as far as when they emerge to start aiding a good set?
I sure wish I had this for Kacie when she was younger, now she has to live with her bad jawset or get the upper incisors pulled eventually(they barely cut into her lower jaw, but not painfully)


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Did the Dentist say what s/he thought the adult tooth alignment outcome would be or give you any options as far as when they emerge to start aiding a good set?
> I sure wish I had this for Kacie when she was younger, now she has to live with her bad jawset or get the upper incisors pulled eventually(they barely cut into her lower jaw, but not painfully)


The dentist didn't give me a very clear answer because he said at his age it's difficult to determine what will need to be done. He said there is a slight chance the jaw can grow out, but odds are he will need the same surgery Conor on this board had to undergo where they more or less remove the top portion of the teeth and cap them, which will end up costing $1500-2500+ depending on how many teeth need to get done. I will be taking him in to the specialist in 3 weeks and every 2 weeks after that to see how his teeth are coming in so he can better evaluate the situation. He's going to be my million dollar dog.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ok I have no dog (no pun intended) in this race and look at it this way and please let me know if I am incorrect.

You got a puppy shipped from overseas (_***Kennel name removed***_) with a overbite at 8 weeks old. When you found out he had a overbite he was 9 weeks old (6/16/11) as you posted the pictures on here. In that thread you mentioned how you speak to _***Name removed***_ and he was upset b/c he didn't know and offered to replace the puppy. You then mentioned that you aren't interested in any other pups that are currently available.

You then mention that you were going to keep him 6 months and then decide what to do after that but you were going _*to get his teeth removed now*_ (6/17/11) Later in the thread you mention how you will not raise 2 puppies at the same time. You then say how you will *probably *go with another puppy and return this one. 

Jakoda in the same thread implied she would have been interested in taking the pup if you found out with the breeder what he would do with him once taken back.

You now come here today (6/28) and say that you decided to keep the puppy. Now you say though that the breeder has been M.I.A. He hasn't returned your calls, emails, etc. even though earlier you said you spoke with him and he offered you a replacement.

You said in this thread that your mad that the breeder didn't mention the overbite. _(Name removed)_ didn't breed the dog as it was born overseas and was just shipped here for you to pick up at the airport. Did you pick up the pup from the airport? _(Name removed)_ did get 2 dogs from this breeding but he bought them and they weren't held back as he wasn't the breeder but rather _(Kennel Name removed)_ was. Yes he bought 2 for possible breeding or competition (most common reasons especially since he is a big fan of the sire....Ex z Jirkova Dvora)

You say that you decided to keep him b/c you don't think he'll be able to find a nice home. You call him a "lackluster breeder" but it looks like (from your own words) he offered you a solution but you didn't take him up on it. You decided to go on and keep the dog and get its teeth removed.

You then say in this thread that you told the breeder you prefer monetary compensation BUT then later you mention you know the policy states that there is no refund.

I am trying to see where you feel cheated. You seem like you have flip flopped on everything you have stated and you have only had the pup for about 2 weeks. You should have returned the pup and waited till you saw a litter that you were interested in. By you taking it upon your own to get the teeth removed you voided the contract.

I do think it was too early to get the teeth removed as the pup isn't even 12 weeks. I think we can agree we won't know what would have happened as the teeth are now removed and speculation does nothing now but waste time and energy.

By you removing the teeth (and I hate to say this but its true) you have effectively made the dog worthless. You got a awesome working line dog who most likely would have been awesome for top level sport/PP and now with those teeth gone he is just a pet. I would have given my left nut for that dog...lol..with all of his teeth intact of course.

I think you overreacted and it isn't the breeders fault. You felt concerned (as you should have been) and didn't want the pup to be in pain (and I totally understand). I think you should have though taken him back to the breeder and waited for another litter that tickled your fancy.

It wasn't _(Name removed)_ fault the pup came like this but he tried to help. I think you probably should have driven to see him in person to return the pup.


Now if I am wrong anywhere here please correct me. Again i don't have a pony in this race and every story has 2 sides. I think you had your heart in the right place but just did the wrong thing which in turn screwed you.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> Ok I have no dog (no pun intended) in this race and look at it this way and please let me know if I am incorrect.
> 
> You got a puppy shipped from overseas (_***Kennel name removed***_) with a overbite at 8 weeks old. When you found out he had a overbite he was 9 weeks old (6/16/11) as you posted the pictures on here. In that thread you mentioned how you speak to _***Name removed***_ and he was upset b/c he didn't know and offered to replace the puppy. You then mentioned that you aren't interested in any other pups that are currently available.
> 
> ...


I fail to see where I did the wrong thing. I know what the contract stipulates, I have read it several times, and nowhere in the breeder's contract does it state that I must get his permission to get surgery done. Also, this is his PUPPY teeth that were pulled; he still has adult teeth to come in so I'm not sure what you're complaining about in regards to his teeth. His puppy canines needed to be pulled right away per my regular vet and a dental specialist. 

I realize I am not clarifying between _***Names removed***_, but they both represent the other (IMO) so I don't see any reason to clarify, along with the fact I didn't want this thread closed for "breeder bashing". You're just nit-picking the details. I did state that he offered me a replacement; that is not what I have a problem with. And yes, I did say before I would probably take a replacement, but since then I have changed my mind. Is that so wrong? I also don't see why I can't try and ask for monetary compensation when this is clearly the breeder (_*** Name Removed ***_) fault. I knew it would be denied, but there's no problem with asking. 

Yes, I believe (_*** Name Removed ***_) is a lackluster breeder at this point and this is not because he only offered a replacement. Most breeders only offer replacements; that is fine with me. As I stated before, I feel cheated BECAUSE the breeder did not let me know about his dental issues. Replacement is fine. No money back is fine. But not letting me know about his obvious genetic problem and letting me make a decision before he was sent to me so I would get attached is NOT fine. And (_*** Name Removed ***_) did keep a male and female from this litter so there is no way he wouldn't know about it. I never stated anywhere in my OP whether it was (_*** Names Removed ***_), so you're making assumptions on some things.

(_*** Name Removed ***_) is also responsible for the communication aspect since all U.S. correspondence is done through him. The day I contacted him about the overbite, which was 2 days after I took Kaiser home from the airport, he did say he would offer me a replacement and talk to _(**Name Removed**)_ at which time I told him was something I preferred. Since that day I was never contacted again even though I called several times so yes I emailed him wondering what was going on and finally got a response. Mainly though, my tiff is with (_*** Name Removed ***_) and not (_*** Name Removed ***_). 

So yes, the kennel may have excellent dogs and an incredibly knowledgeable breeder, but the way he goes about things is NOT okay to me and probably to others.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What is done is done. I do not think I would have been so quick to remove teeth. Carmspac I think in the other thread, was saying this might straighten itself out. And she comes from a lot of experience. But others were saying no way would it straighten out on its own. Of course vets are going to be quick to cut on a dog. 

Where can you go for good information. 

I do agree that this would void any warranty, and completely ruins the dog for conformation shows, breeding, or probably protection sports -- though I don't know about how losing baby teeth will affect that. 

But how does one know who to ask, who to believe? If performing surgery now will help the pup down the line, I don't know. I guess you listen to everyone and then make your own mind up, and live with any repercussions. 

I do agree that there seems to be some undeserved anger towards the breeder. 

I guess I just hope the puppy is fine after all of this, and recovers fast.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

selzer said:


> What is done is done. I do not think I would have been so quick to remove teeth. Carmspac I think in the other thread, was saying this might straighten itself out. And she comes from a lot of experience. But others were saying no way would it straighten out on its own. Of course vets are going to be quick to cut on a dog.
> 
> Where can you go for good information.
> 
> ...


I am not angry with the breeder; I am disappointed with the breeder. Kaiser had his puppy canines pulled; big deal. They were cutting into his upper gums; what would you have done? Leave him in pain? There was no way it would have fixed itself because his lower canines were effectively 'locking' his jaw in place by piercing the upper gum. His adult ones will grow in just fine (hopefully). 

Whether the contract is void or not is none of my concern since I no longer wish to deal with the breeder anyway. How can a buyer not be disappointed with a breeder who did not explain your puppy's genetic problem that will cost you a lot of money to even remotely fix before sending the puppy over?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The problem is that the puppy is growing. And sometimes things do not grow at the same rate. So this issue might not have been an issue down the road at all. It might just have been a growing thing. 

I had a pup, Cujo, who was at the vet at six weeks, the ER for a cut on his head. The ER vet said, Oh he has an overbite. I said, What??? I never saw it. And he grew out of it just fine. Just the way he grew. Cujo is my parents' dog, he has never had any problem with his teeth. I think the ER vet was a bit premature in calling attention to it, I just looked, he has a perfect scissors bite.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

selzer said:


> The problem is that the puppy is growing. And sometimes things do not grow at the same rate. So this issue might not have been an issue down the road at all. It might just have been a growing thing.
> 
> I had a pup, Cujo, who was at the vet at six weeks, the ER for a cut on his head. The ER vet said, Oh he has an overbite. I said, What??? I never saw it. And he grew out of it just fine. Just the way he grew. Cujo is my parents' dog, he has never had any problem with his teeth. I think the ER vet was a bit premature in calling attention to it, I just looked, he has a perfect scissors bite.


Yes he is growing, but there are varying degrees of overbite. I don't know what Cujo's looked like, but Kaiser's is very bad. I posted pictures of it in the other thread. And like I stated, his lower canines were cutting his upper gum, acting as a 'lock' so I doubt it would've fixed itself without any intervention.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Wow, I wouldn't even know what would be worse. Finding something like this right off the bat or finding something else later.

Even if the woman I got Alice from would have taken her back at 23 months for seizures. I don't think that I could do it. I put too much time into her and was bonded with her bossy self.

I'm sorry you've had to go through that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not know either. I think you did what you thought was right, and many people here agree with that. I do not know what else you could do. It looked bad, I do not remember almost six years ago with Cujo's how bad it was. And if your pup was bleeding, yeah, I think I would probably be doing something.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Verivus said:


> I fail to see where I did the wrong thing. I know what the contract stipulates, I have read it several times, and nowhere in the breeder's contract does it state that I must get his permission to get surgery done. Also, this is his PUPPY teeth that were pulled; he still has adult teeth to come in so I'm not sure what you're complaining about in regards to his teeth. His puppy canines needed to be pulled right away per my regular vet and a dental specialist.
> 
> I realize I am not clarifying between _***Names removed***_, but they both represent the other (IMO) so I don't see any reason to clarify, along with the fact I didn't want this thread closed for "breeder bashing". You're just nit-picking the details. I did state that he offered me a replacement; that is not what I have a problem with. And yes, I did say before I would probably take a replacement, but since then I have changed my mind. Is that so wrong? I also don't see why I can't try and ask for monetary compensation when this is clearly the breeder (_*** Name Removed ***_) fault. I knew it would be denied, but there's no problem with asking.
> 
> ...


Ok I can see where you don't feel like you did the wrong thing. I will then say the _*right*_ thing that you should have done was to have taken the pup back to the breeder for a replacement.

Well with the pups name in your signature, everyone knows who the breeders of z Jirkova Dvora are and it helps clarify things.

I can see where you are upset about (_*** Name Removed ***_) not telling you about the teeth. But then again, (_*** Name Removed ***_) didn't know and your communication was with (_*** Names Removed ***_)

You say that I'm nit picking the details but the devil _*is*_ in the details. I am going with _*EXACTLY*_ you have written on this forum. How am I "nit picking" if I am just posting what you have typed previously? 

Yes you knew money back was not a option but tried anyways. You got told no so that is no surprise. Maybe (_*** Name Removed ***_)felt it was no big deal as he has dealt with more dogs than your vet. Maybe he felt the dog would grow out of it....again specualtion..who knows but I would trust (_*** Name Removed ***_). (_*** Name Removed ***_) doesn't keep dogs on looks. He picks dogs on drives and what he will want to do with the dog. Pups are matched on what the person is looking for and not 1st come 1st serve. I just feel that when you got the pup and saw it, why not return it? You said previously you was then you changed your mind then you changed your mind again.

Im not making assumptions about anything but I did make a mistake. (_*** Name Removed ***_) did keep back a male & female while (_*** Name Removed ***_) bought a male.

Ok your tiff is with (_*** Name Removed ***_), fine. You got to deal with (**Name Removed**) for the replacement and you mentioned in the overbite thread he would do a replacement. To me after that you should have told (_*** Name Removed ***_) you was coming on a weekend to return the dog and select from a different litter in the future.

You even said in your previous thread that *the dog wasn't bleeding from it.*

At the end of the day he tried to help you but you do void a warranty by getting surgery on it. No different than getting a dog spayed/neutered and then trying to return it. I think you did what you felt was best (besides returning the dog) and that is fine. I just don't see where you were wronged and screwed over. They offered a replacement and you said no.

You had the pup for 2 days. Not like you had it for weeks but if you seriously bonded in 2 days then ok.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> Ok I can see where you don't feel like you did the wrong thing. I will then say the _*right*_ thing that you should have done was to have taken the pup back to the breeder for a replacement.
> 
> Well with the pups name in your signature, everyone knows who the breeders of z Jirkova Dvora are and it helps clarify things.
> 
> ...


I was going to return him that following Saturday because I had not yet bonded with the puppy, but when I called _*** Name Removed ***_ to arrange that he never called me back. I did not want to drive up there without any arrangements since it is a 5 hour round trip. So I got stuck with the puppy for another week; that's when I ended up bonding with him. He did try to help me by offering me a replacement, but I no longer trust _*** Name Removed ***_ enough to accept that offer. Like I said many times now, my problem is not their lack of help, it's the lack of informing me beforehand when _*** Name Removed ***_ clearly knew there was a problem. So yes I feel I was wronged in that I was not informed of his dental issues beforehand. I would hope any respectable breeder would be upfront with a buyer about a pup's health issues. It doesn't matter if _*** Name Removed ***_ thought he would grow out of it, I still should've been told so that I could make a decision.

Even if the pup isn't bleeding from the lower canines cutting the gums, that doesn't mean he wasn't in pain. If seeing blood was the only reason to undergo surgery there would be a lot of pets in pain out there. If you could have seen his mouth, you would have seen that he had very deep indentations in his upper gums from his canines; very obviously not comfortable in the slightest. My vet used to do a lot of work on competition level SCHH GSDs so he is very familiar with the breed, so no I would not take_*** Name Removed ***_ opinion on health over my vet's. And once again, nowhere in the contract does it state that surgery voids warranty. Spay and neuter yes, surgery no. Not that it matters because I have no desire to keep dealing with this breeder anyway so I'm not sure why you're still stuck on that. I will go with what I believe is a better breeder the next time around.

Honestly, I think you're just biased and can't see my point of view because you got a pup from and do train with _*** Name Removed ***_ on a regular basis, but that's okay.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Since when does surgery recommended both by a vet and a specialist void a contract? We are talking pain relief here and baby teeth.

Does anyone think that the breeder was not aware of the overbite when he shipped the dog?

Regardless, kudo's to you Chrissy for taking care of this pup and making a commitment to him. It may not of been the wisest one from a financial standpoint but I think it was by far the best option for this pup.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Let me make it clear that when Selzer said I had lots of experience with overbite -- it was NOT with my own dogs . Very clear on that point . The experience was back in the day when I was doing a lot of handling -- getting young show pups out in to the matches , hired to socialize them, leash train them, get them ring ready , stack (hand and free for bait) get them used to judges inspection of mouth for dentition, ears, and testicles for the males. 
I saw lots of maloccusions -- some you could put your finger in to the first joint !! others no more than a pencil width or envelope edge (good) ---- 
In my mind I can picture one of the males, a Canadian GV , his breeder , do you think I can remember the dogs name !? He had lots of youngsters with a problem at the outset and many did rectify themselves . Some wry mouths also.
A handler embelishes the finer points , draws attention away from the flaws - 

Frankly when I read further on this thread and put two and two together -- I am really really surprised . For all the world the picture that was shown of the young dog's head , I would have speculated ASL --- not Czech line . 
Are you certain the parentage is correct? 

I have lines very similar -- a litter that had 11 pups and zero had any dentition problems , and none had that head shape, or narrow muzzle. Just asking.
Not making accusations , just not what I expected to see .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Thank you Betty.  Financially I am strapped, but I have been approved for Wells Fargo Health Advantage which is what the specialist accepts, so that will take most of the blow if his teeth require further care. Thank god I have okay credit... 

Carmen, that is what I was told. Since the breeding was in Czech I would not be able to confirm it other then the breeder's word, but I trust that he is from the Ex z JD x Dali x JD breeding. It will be several months before I get papers though.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I'm not sure why you are being criticized either for proposing the option of some kind of refund. It's not like you called him a no good son of a gun when he declined.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Verivus said:


> I was going to return him that following Saturday because I had not yet bonded with the puppy, but when I called _***Removed Name***_ to arrange that he never called me back. I did not want to drive up there without any arrangements since it is a 5 hour round trip. So I got stuck with the puppy for another week; that's when I ended up bonding with him. He did try to help me by offering me a replacement, but I no longer trust _***Removed Name***_ enough to accept that offer. Like I said many times now, my problem is not their lack of help, it's the lack of informing me beforehand when _***Removed Name***_ clearly knew there was a problem. So yes I feel I was wronged in that I was not informed of his dental issues beforehand. I would hope any respectable breeder would be upfront with a buyer about a pup's health issues. It doesn't matter if _***Removed Name***_ thought he would grow out of it, I still should've been told so that I could make a decision.
> 
> Even if the pup isn't bleeding from the lower canines cutting the gums, that doesn't mean he wasn't in pain. If seeing blood was the only reason to undergo surgery there would be a lot of pets in pain out there. If you could have seen his mouth, you would have seen that he had very deep indentations in his upper gums from his canines; very obviously not comfortable in the slightest. My vet used to do a lot of work on competition level SCHH GSDs so he is very familiar with the breed, so no I would not take _***Removed Name***_ opinion on health over my vet's. And once again, nowhere in the contract does it state that surgery voids warranty. Spay and neuter yes, surgery no. Not that it matters because I have no desire to keep dealing with this breeder anyway so I'm not sure why you're still stuck on that. I will go with what I believe is a better breeder the next time around.
> 
> Honestly, I think you're just biased and can't see my point of view because you got a pup from and do train with _***Removed Name***_ on a regular basis, but that's okay.


If he didn't call you back then he was at fault for that. 
If you don't trust _***Removed Name***_ that is ok as well as you do have that right. As you said, you won't be dealing with them anymore so I guess its all a mute point especially since you have decided to not return the puppy. There are great breeders out there and Im sure you will find the one that fits you best.

I am not being biased as everyone knows where I got my pup. If I was biased I'd tell him to come online and defend himself but I won't. I think he has enough on his plate than to argue over stuff on the net. (Im sure somone will read and tell him and he'll be pissed at me for not saying something but I'll deal with that)
Everything I have gone off of has been put out there by you on the Overbite thread and this one. I am pulling all this info from you.

I just would have handled it differently but then again we are 2 separate people. When I had questions about my pup I emailed_***Removed Name***_ who both responded to my emails. I have met and talked to _Removed Name_ in person and was a knowledgeable, honest and stand up guy but again everyone has different interactions with different people.

I am surprised you didn't post this on _***Removed Name***_ forum.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Carmspack.....Here is the pedigree of the dog

Calib z Jirkova dvora - German Shepherd Dog


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

No more using kennel or individual names of people involved in this situation - or the entire post may just get deleted. 

Thank you!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Glad that you are keeping the dog-really agree with what Betty posted-a breeder can see if a puppy has a severe over bite


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## ValleyGirl (Dec 31, 2010)

I can understand your unhappiness with what happened. Breeder obviously knew the puppy had a bad bite and even if the breeder felt the puppy would outgrow it, the breeder in my opinion should not have shipped it to you without telling you about the bite and his opinion on the future. You then could have researched it and from a picture of the puppy, decided whether to buy it or not. After all this was not some byb situation and I am sure you paid a good price for this dog. So regardless of what happened after the puppy was shipped, the wrong was done to you at that time. 

I had a similar experience. Years ago I purhased a corgi puppy from a very good breeder you had to know someone to approach. The breeder helped me pick the puppy as I wanted it to be a quasi hearing ear dog so we choose the "smartest" puppy. The puppy was very beautiful because unknown to me it was a "fluffy" which is a serious fault in the corgi. The breeder knew it was a fluffy and her policy was to charge less for fluffies. She charged me full price knowing I was ignorant about corgis.

After I had the dog a week or so, I learned about fluffy from other corgi owners who recognized it in my dog right away. I asked the breeder and she was very evasive about it. I liked this woman alot and just dropped it as I was not planned to show the dog. Shortly after I got this puppy, an older dog of mine died suddenly and the breeder agreed to place an adult corgi she had with me and not only did not charge me for this adult but had her altered at the breeder's expense even though I agree to bear that cost. So breeder made it more than good what she overcharged me on the puppy and we actually became friends of a sort over the years.

After this though and reading of others' experiences with "good" breeders, I would never buy a puppy sight unseen and without researching the breed. I do hear what you are saying. Susan


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## Silvermoon (Apr 2, 2011)

My JRT had a severe overbite (actually, that is how I ended up with him- saved him from a breeder who thought that he was disposable!!- just can't image), anyway, after I had his lower canines removed, all was well. I am sorry that you have had problems with your breeder, but just focus on your love for your pup and its love for you. Obviously, you were meant to be together!!!

Holly


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think the whole point of this is Chrissy has become attached to Kai and who wouldn't?? I honestly don't think I could 'return" a puppy no matter who the breeder was because of this. Disappointed , yes I would be, would I have asked for medical assistance? Probably, and when they declined that would have been ok with me, but it doesn't hurt to ask, as Chrissy did.

I most likely would have done exactly as Chrissy did, remove those baby canines, the pics of his overbite are severe in my opinion, maybe he'll grow out of it, maybe not, maybe it will adjust itself to be 'better', maybe not. 

I think she is more disappointed than anything.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Ace, the one difference between you and Chrissy regarding this person that you think is so 'honest' is that her dog had a problem and yours (I'm assuming), didn't.

The true side of people show during the bad times, not the good times.

There are two really big issues here:

1. The puppy NEVER should have been sent. Would Apple send someone an IPOD that they had ordered if the play button didn't work, hoping they would accept it as it is? NO. If this breeder is so experienced, they would have noticed it. Continuing to send the dog, knowing the potential owner may not notice until they are attached to the pup, is very unethical IMO. 

2. This person should have contacted back Chrissy ASAP and sorted out the entire situation. The avoidance of phone calls, etc is very suspicious.

Chrissy, you were taken advantage of as many of us have been. I am truly sorry for you and hope your pup's overbite gets better as the puppy grows.

Obviously, Chrissy is being a responsible owner and taking care of this puppy that she is not only attached to, but thinks would not find another home if she sent it back. Instead of nitpicking the details in the situation, let us console her and hope for the best in this situation.

Ace, your friend may be a very nice person most of the time, but it is obvious that he faulted Chrissy in this situation from what has been said. Please just let it drop or ask this person to post his side on here. You sound like a good friend that is trying to defend a friend, but that is not neccessary on this post as Chrissy has not attacked the breeder. All she has done is state her opinion in a rather calm manner. (Way calmer than I would have been!) You defending the person is sounding more like you attacking Chrissy.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Ace, the one difference between you and Chrissy regarding this person that you think is so 'honest' is that her dog had a problem and yours (I'm assuming), didn't.
> 
> The true side of people show during the bad times, not the good times.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Great post!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I understand the disappointment. I have a dog with an overbite as well, though it's not bad, purely cosmetic, but the dog is a show line and I can no longer show him or do the breed survey. He's right on the line of whether a judge could choose to fault/note the bite or excuse the dog altogether. I am not "in the know" of which judges are particular on teeth, so I just don't show him anymore. Ironically, my new puppy had a much much worse bite for a while when he was teething, but his has straightened out, while my show line never had a really bad bite, but it never got better.

I originally said this is a lose-lose situation because there seems to be nothing the breeder can do at this point to make amends with the OP.


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## jacoboram126 (Jun 29, 2011)

Yeah that is a bummer !


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The breeder definitely could do things to make things better. Could have started by being honest in the first place-could refund some of the purchase price-at least that would be an acknowledgement. Really glad the OP is keeping the puppy though and hope it all works out


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I never said Chrissy shouldn't be upset/disappointed. She has the right to feel the way she feels.

The comparison to a iPod is apples & oranges. Not a good analogy. 

1. Should the puppy have been sent, probably not. The breeder should have said something.

2. Chrissy said in another thread she spoke to the party which helped get her the pup and he offered a replacement.

3. You say the breeder should come on here to defend themselves. Why??? _*The breeder has his own forum*_ (Chrissy is a member & posts there) & _*they frequent PDB*_. Why not make a thread there? The breeder doesn't delete, ban or lock/delete threads. Post it there for all to see who buy from them. Why do it here where the breeder doesn't come? If she was just tired of it all and wanted to come on here to complain then so be it. I just don't understand why you don't go where they post and put it out there. 

4. Chrissy could also (and still can) email the breeder overseas and speak to them. Better yet can hop on Skype and call them for free. If you feel you are wronged why not go to the person and tell them so. Their contact info is on their site.

I am not attacking her at all but wondering why her story changed. Her story in the other thread and on this one is different and Im just pointing out the differences. Heck Chrissy said in her previous thread she would wait 6 months and then decide about a replacement and all. She said that when she was attached to the dog. That just doesn't add up to me. As with every story there are 3 sides. Each party has their side and somewhere in between those 2 stories is the truth.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Good grief Ace, I admire loyalty but I think you are really shooting yourself in the foot. 

If you want to put any one under a microscope, not one but two people that are very experienced in the breed handed her a pup with one of the worse bites I have ever seen. WITHOUT DISCLOSURE.

She didn't post any names or link to a pedigree. 

She does state she was offered a replacement pup and gave her reasons for not wanting one. Perhaps you would, but you are not her.

And you are even trying to direct her to post on certain board and contact them again when she already has?

From her posts it sounds like she had made her peace with the situation. Since she is the one facing some significant medical bills and has made a commitment to providing for the pup maybe you should follow her lead?


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Betty said:


> Good grief Ace, I admire loyalty but I think you are really shooting yourself in the foot.
> 
> If you want to put any one under a microscope, not one but two people that are very experienced in the breed handed her a pup with one of the worse bites I have ever seen. WITHOUT DISCLOSURE.
> 
> ...


Again I haven't excused them on any of this.
If i have please show me where.

No she didn't post the names of the breeder or link to the pedigree. It isn't hard to gather since she mentioned in another thread where she was getting the pup from & the dog's kennel name is in her signature.

She posted on this board and I wondered why she didn't post on the board where she is a member which is the breeders board. That was in response to someone saying that the breeder should come here to defend himself.

I should follow her lead and? I am just responding to questions here. Even though no one responds to mine.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I always find it funny when people expect stories to always stay the same. Sometimes thats just not possible. Things change, feelings change, people change their minds. What is so wrong, Ace, about her changing her mind? The "changes" in her stories seem to be things that would/could/do happen to anyone on a day to day bases. You've never changed your mind about something? You're situations "always" stay the same? I know you are trying to not be biased, but I don't think that's really possible IMO, you are going above and beyond to really nit pick at her posts and her situation, that you, have no personal experience with. (aside from being friends with the guy who went between her and the breeder I believe)

She came on her to complain and get it off their chest...not everyone needs to make a big ordeal about things, and post everywhere on the internet.

To the OP, good luck with your puppy. It might be rough but in the end you have a wonderful loving little pup to hold at night.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also I believe that a broker DOES share some responsibility for the puppies they import and the deals they setup. Both the breeder and the broker share responsibility here. I am not sure how a bite like that would go unnoticed before shipping but, it's not my dog or my breeder so I don't expect an explanation.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry Carmen, I was more suggesting that you had posted on the previous thread about these things sometimes clear up on their own. I wasn't thinking it would come across like you were breeding dogs with bad dentition -- did not mean that. I was just trying to see both sides of the situation. 

On the one side you have vet and specialist saying to do surgery NOW. 
On the other side you have pretty much one person with some experience saying it MAY clean itself up. 

I think that given that situation, once the OP decided to keep the dog, doing the surgery was easily the choice anyone would make. 

However, if the breeder does not refund money (in contract), or does not have listed dentition in their guaranty, I think that at this point, at the point when the OP decided to keep the pup, the breeder is in the clear. 

I think either your return the puppy and get a replacement OR you keep the puppy and take care of it. I do not think you keep the puppy or do surgeries on a puppy and THEN return it for a replacement or expect monetary compensation. 

If you purchase a show-quality pup, and you feel the pup that arrives is not show-quality for one reason or another, you return it. If the breeder is charging 2.5k for pet quality and 3k for show quality, and you have a good case for the dog being pet quality, then I can understand ASKING for the difference. But if the contract requires the pup be returned and replaced with another pup, refunding the difference would be not required, but a breeder might do it to keep the buyer happy, for the good will. The buyer should not be angry if that is something the breeder does not want to do, because that is not something that they agreed to in the beginning. 

It sounds like the buyer is disappointed, angry, or distrustful of the breeder because the breeder is willing to abide by his agreement, but is not willing to make the concessions that were not contracted and the buyer wants.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I do not know how things work when it comes to overseas, however, on a state level she might actually have a case. If it says in the contract that the pup has no problems, and ends up with one, then the breeder would be held responsible, and the buyer might be able to get some compensation. But, that all depends on the area and the laws regarding those situations. I don't know how that applies in this situaiton though. Its really not that far fetched to ask for compensation when someone buys a puppy from a breeder and the breeder says the pup has no problems.

She asked, got told no, and then dropped it. If she were constantly harassing them about it then I could see the point, but she is not, just stating her disappointment and how she changed her mind about the pup and keeping it. Sounds more like to me that she is upset that this information kept from her. I don't believe for a second that that overbite went unnoticed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The guarantee is on the web page, it does state that no money is given back. It does not state that puppies have no problems; it outlines what problems are covered to what extent and what should be done in order to receive a replacement dog.

Chalk it up to a lesson learned. If there are any circumstances in which a buyer would want/expect money back that should be addressed before the dog/money change hands.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I don't think I could return a puppy either after a week of bonding even with flaws. I would financially do what I could to rectify the situation and give my dog relief, talk to the breeder, and give that dog a loving home....which is what the OP has done. It's pretty hard to send a puppy out with an overbite that severe without noticing, and that is something that SHOULD have been disclosed BEFORE shipment. The OP ordered a healthy puppy...they didn't get one-pain is not healthy

I understand the terms but it seems this breeder breached their own terms and should have offered some compensation to save face....I would have. I bred reptiles for 9 years selling globally here in the US and overseas. I also had a no money back/replacement animal clause though had I sent out a deformed animal I wouldn't have a problem rethinking that based on it being the RIGHT thing to do. In the grand scheme of things situations like these cost breeders sales when they do not react appropriately business is lost, referrals decrease, and their name holds a little less weight. I hope the breeder learns a lesson and begins to value overall sales instead of nitpicking one where they were clearly negligent in the first place


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I do not know this breeder or the broker but IMO it is not about "overall sales" it is about the dogs. The warranty is easily available on the web site and all the terms are spelled out clearly, what is covered and what is not. I do not understand how this breeder "breached" their own terms by going along with what the warranty publicly states? 

I still am not clear on how the overbite went unnoticed before the puppy was shipped or why the buyer did not notice it right away and send the puppy back immediately before bonding or paying for additional surgery but I don't think either of these things matter much anymore as it will not change the outcome.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

She contacted the guy about the pup 2 days afterwards and was ready for a replacement. Its when no one ever contacted her back and she bonded with her pup she changed her mind on the replacement. If you take into consideration driving time, getting the pup settled and then finally really looking at the pup, a few days sounds about right. (also are we talking 48hrs or just going by nights/days lol)




> (_*** Name Removed ***_) is also responsible for the communication aspect since all U.S. correspondence is done through him. The day I contacted him about the overbite, which was 2 days after I took Kaiser home from the airport, he did say he would offer me a replacement and talk to _(**Name Removed**)_ at which time I told him was something I preferred. Since that day I was never contacted again even though I called several times so yes I emailed him wondering what was going on and finally got a response. Mainly though, my tiff is with (_*** Name Removed ***_) and not (_*** Name Removed ***_).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There has been a whole lot of back and forth for the claim that no one ever contacted her back. Do people expect to be contacted within 20 minutes, 2 hours, ten hours, by the next day? What constitutes not contacted back? 

If you jump in your car now, call me because you want to drive up and return a puppy, you might be pretty ticked off, because I might not get the message until I get off work, or until I get home from dog class -- and then I won't be able to call back because it will be after ten and I will feel it is too late to call someone at that hour, and will wait until the morning. 

As for email -- some people do not read them every day. And especially people from other countries. They are not all and nutso as Americans are about timing. They get to it. This guy DID get to it. He thought she was going through the broker, which she said was what she wanted to do. All of this happened within a couple of days. That is not necessarily not caring about you, not getting back to you.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I would say that I would have expected a return call within 24 hours under normal circumstances (i.e. the breeder is not traveling or something like that); and within 48 hours unless there was some type of breeder emergency.

That would be my expectation anyway. Esp. if I indicated in my call that it was at least a semi critical situation.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I can't say when she should have received return contact; I have no firsthand dealings with the breeder or broker so I don't know how they communicate. The warranty does not stipulate any time lines, so if the time frame for receiving a replacement dog was important it should have been discussed prior to exchanging dog/money.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> I always find it funny when people expect stories to always stay the same. Sometimes thats just not possible. Things change, feelings change, people change their minds. What is so wrong, Ace, about her changing her mind? The "changes" in her stories seem to be things that would/could/do happen to anyone on a day to day bases. You've never changed your mind about something? You're situations "always" stay the same? I know you are trying to not be biased, but I don't think that's really possible IMO, you are going above and beyond to really nit pick at her posts and her situation, that you, have no personal experience with. (aside from being friends with the guy who went between her and the breeder I believe)
> 
> She came on her to complain and get it off their chest...not everyone needs to make a big ordeal about things, and post everywhere on the internet.
> 
> To the OP, good luck with your puppy. It might be rough but in the end you have a wonderful loving little pup to hold at night.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind. It seems like she just went back and forth and didn't know what she wanted. She told the breeder she wanted a replacement but then went and got surgery done and decided to keep it. There is nothing wrong with that but then that means your keeping the pup.

With regards to me and how I would have handled it. I wouldn't have worried much about the overbite and would have seen how things have went. I would have talked to the breeder and drew up a contract stating that I would keep it with the overbite but if it grew to be something that required surgery, extraction, etc and would have stopped me from doing Sch, PSA, PP then I could return it for a replacement.

Heck the breeder has a forum, if I felt like I was being ignored I would have posted a thread (like the overbite thread) on *their* forum That way everyone see's what I am going through.

What you call "nit pick" is what I call paying close attention to detail. Usually when people use the term "nit pick" they know that person is correct BUT should just leave it alone. Lawyers are often regarded as nit pickers amongst other things...lol

No one made a big deal. I just asked questions based on what she said. This is a forum so if you put it out there you gotta be prepared for what comes. I have not been disrespectful or mean towards her. I have just asked for clarification and asked questions. I feel bad that her pup has a overbite and was sent that without warning first.

If she just wanted to come on the net to vent/rant that is fine, just say so. I haven't called her any names nor been disrespectful. The OP has called the breeder different things but I haven't. Just b/c the breeder is my friend doesn't mean I wont criticize them. If they do something wrong I tell them. If I don't I wouldn't be much of a friend. Im not looking at this emotionally but rather Im seeing it from both sides. 

Liesje & Selzer make some great points for both parties.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Guess for me the bottom line is that the pup should not of been shipped to her without prior full disclosure.

All else is kind of a mute point for me.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Ace, you keep stating I should post on PDB or the breeder's forum, but I'm not out to get revenge or anything of the sort. I'm just disappointed and wanted to relay it somewhere I would be understood. Yes I do have a PDB account and an account on his forum, but I don't see the point in cross-posting the same thing over and over again, and I frequent this forum the most. I do not like airing my business in public so no, I would not even have considered posting on his forum when I was trying to contact him (which I DID think of). I am not seeking retribution, or even a response from the breeder. He offered me a new puppy according to our contract and in that regard he did uphold his end of the deal. I am not out to try and destroy his business. It is what it is.

To address some other questions, I gave the breeder plenty of time to call me; over the span of little over a week I called him a total of 3 times. Averaging once every two days. I think that's more then enough time to have called me back. I waited 10 days before I finally decided to shoot an email to him. I knew once I decided to have the surgery done that he would be mine and I would not consider replacement. I have read the breeder's contract enough times to know I would not receive monetary compensation for anything. How many times do I have to say that my disappointment is not in either of those things?  I was fully aware of, and accepted, those facts. 

For the hundredth time, my disappointment is with the fact that I was never told, BEFORE my puppy came to me, about his quite significant overbite. You would think any responsible, reputable breeder would have done so; and many think that he is. I am the buyer so it should have been MY decision, not the breeder's, as to whether or not I still wanted this pup shipped over or to transfer my deposit to another litter. As I've stated the breeder kept back 2 pups from this litter so this litter was more closely observed then usual so there's no way the overbite could have gone unnoticed. I did not pay big $$ to be sent a puppy with obvious health problems. Hence I no longer trust the breeder OR the importer, which is why I have decided to NOT take their replacement offer. 

I am not angry/upset. The breeder technically stayed true to his contract, I just did not accept his offer. I am just disappointed because this situation should never have happened in the first place. I have already cut my losses and will go with a better breeder in the future.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I think the fact this puppy was 3,000.00 and sold as a show prospect makes the glaring fault of sending this puppy in the first place very irresponsible, this is a supposed top notch breeder, not a BYB , how on God's green earth do you miss an overbite as bad as that? I don't think they did, they chose to send this puppy regardless of the bite, who knows why, at the very least this breeder should have stepped up to the plate by responding in a timely matter, and if not replacing the puppy, at least compensating her a portion of the purchase price, this was in no way her fault, she bought a show prospect puppy from a reputable kennel and thought she was doing everything by the book, turns out, she would have been better off getting a puppy from a BYB or Craigslist. I know I would never consider this kennel for a puppy in the future with what has transpired here.


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

I have just found out about this thread and had some hard time to log in for a while. 
Also I did not have time to read all the posts here. Here is my take on this deal. I am the seller/ broker of the pup. 
I am not the breeder or the one selecting the pup. However I do feel responsible for the deal to be good for all parties involved. Here are my points.
1. I reject the notion that I did ignored the phone calls.
I have called back and phone went to the voice mail without ringing. I was out of the range and in Indian reservation region where I was roaming. I was going to return the call later. Then several personal bad things happened to me and it slipped my mind. However I am available on the email all the time and I do pick the calls every time I hear the phone ring. Tus the buyer could but did not try to contact me once after I said that I will call back.
2. The next contact was that the surgery had been conducted on the pup for more then $400. My vet would have done it for $89. I would and still am wiling to pay $89 even so my warranty says that I do not pay for any vet expenses. 
3. I requested pictures and send them to my partner and breeder in Czech. The pictures were not as bad as described by the buyer, but things are relative and I understand that. 
4. I, the breeder who is also breed warden in Czech and 2 vets concluded that it is not timely to evaluate under or overbite when puppy teeth are present since the pups grow in irregular rate and this problem may self correct. 
5. The breeder said that he is sorry that the teeth looked OK 2 weeks prior to the shipping and he did not checked again later. Never less we have and are offering to giv ebuyer another dog when he is 6 mo old and if the teeth do not straighten up. We would let the buyer to keep the original pup and do with it as she desire or we would take it back. That is her choice in this case. 
6. I would like to say that I am "doing dogs 44" years and have seen this situation with teeth straighten up and I have seen it not straighten up. We need to wait. I personally am sorry and wish we would not overlooked this situation. However it was a honest mistake. But I believe that this problem may get better. If the buyer wants to return this dog at any time we are willing to do so at any time before 6 mo of age and replace the dog. Also if after 6 mo the dog still have problem we will just send her another pup of the same quality. 
I resent that our integrity is in question. yes mistake was made. However even so we have made mistake we are willing to make it good within our warranty and then some. 
I understand that the buyer is disappointed and wish we couldtreturn the time.
I suggest to take a time and see what happens approach. That is what I would do if I would be the buyer in this situation. 
Also I personally would never return a dog for this reason. there are no perfect dogs and i have had some messed up dogs which are etched in my memorry as great dogs. But that is me...
Prager Hans


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks hans for coming on and giving your side of things,,I know chrissy is in love with this boy despite his teeth..heck I offered to take him, but couldn't pry him away..he's a cutie


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Sounds like a reasonable response to me.


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> thanks hans for coming on and giving your side of things,,I know chrissy is in love with this boy despite his teeth..heck I offered to take him, but couldn't pry him away..he's a cutie


I really wish Chrissy and her pup well and I do understand her disappointment. I am also sorry that the customer / buyer relationship had been broken. If anyone asks me why I sell, breed, train and import dogs instead make money like a " normal" person with my engineering degree" I always say that I love what I do and do what I love and I do want people have same great experience with their dogs as I have had through decades of being around them. Thus it pains me tremendously that Chrissy is not happy. However I still hope that this may straighten up.
Prager Hans


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Welcome to the board. 

I am glad we got your input. Thanks.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Prager said:


> Also I personally would never return a dog for this reason. there are no perfect dogs and i have had some messed up dogs which are etched in my memorry as great dogs. But that is me...
> Prager Hans



For $3000.00 it ought to be pretty close to perfect.

Sometimes the *right* thing to do is not in the contract.

At six months how many people would give a dog back?
A buyer might not be in a position to take on a replacement puppy and keep the first one.

If someone has been breeding for 40+ years then just maybe the *right* thing to do would be to let her keep the dog and refund her money.
It's called good will and keeping your good name.

Do you have to do it according to contract? No. Your choice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hunter Jack said:


> *For $3000.00 it ought to be pretty close to perfect.
> *
> Sometimes the *right* thing to do is not in the contract.
> 
> ...



I disagree with this completely.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I disagree as well. If the buyer foresees that they will not be satisfied with the terms of the contract then the time to sort that out is BEFORE buying a dog and "bonding" with it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> I disagree with this completely.


 Not a surprise.

Everyone says breeding is not about money.
I agree. I think it would be difficult to get rich breeding because of all the cost etc..

I do find it interesting though that when the product is not delivered as advertised all of a sudden it becomes about money.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hunter Jack said:


> I do find it interesting though that when the product is not delivered as advertised all of a sudden it becomes about money.


Ok let's break it down then.

What is advertised?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Show quality dog for $3,000.00

I can get a GSD with no bite problems for $200.00 bucks that might make a great pet.

It might turn out to not be a great pet sort of like that dog will not turn out to be a show prospect. Difference $2,800.00 dollars.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anyone that sells a dog and claims that it is perfect, and promises a full cash back if it is not perfect, should pay the owner all the money back if the puppy poops on the floor. 

It is ALIVE. It is therefore not perfect, will not be perfect, and you cannot guarantee perfection. We can predict behavior and development. And the more information we have and the more experience we have, the better we are at that, but it is still a living being.

Most breeders encourage taking the pup to the vet within 24-48 hours, so that the vet can check the pup out. The vet MIGHT not find every conformation fault. The vet may not find a physical problem or disease, but if they do, the answer is to send the dog back right away. 

The OP CHOSE not to do this. The OP does not deserve ANY monetary compensation. They chose to manage the problem and keep the puppy. 

My puppy has a white spot on its chest, I want to keep him, but I want my money back.

My puppy's ears are not up yet. I want to keep him, but I want my money back. 

My puppy has a white toe, I want to keep him, but I want my money back. 

My puppy has light eyes. I want to keep him, but give me my money back. 

My puppy pees on the floor. I want to keep him, but I want my money back. 

If the breeder wants a certain amount of money or will not return money, they are an ogre. 

If a buyer does not want to pay so much money, or if they want their money back, they are a hero. 

Why is it all about the money only on the breeder's side of the fence?


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hunter Jack said:


> Show quality dog for $3,000.00
> 
> I can get a GSD with no bite problems for $200.00 bucks that might make a great pet.
> 
> It might turn out to not be a great pet sort of like that dog will not turn out to be a show prospect. Difference $2,800.00 dollars.


Now I am seeing show as a dog that is purely for show and not "working" That being the case, this is a czech lines working dog and not a show dog. She imported the dog so you will want to ask how much was the dog and then you will see how much shipping is.

We are not talking about this dog being "a pet". Buyer went with this line due to the high workability of the breeding and will be doing Sch with it.

With that said she paid for a working line dog to title in Sch (just going by her previous posts). If I missed something let me know.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hunter Jack said:


> Show quality dog for $3,000.00
> 
> I can get a GSD with no bite problems for $200.00 bucks that might make a great pet.
> 
> It might turn out to not be a great pet sort of like that dog will not turn out to be a show prospect. Difference $2,800.00 dollars.


A show quality dog might grow too big, might not have the proper angulation, or the proper temperament or the proper coat to win in the ring. Show quality does not guaranty a championship. Sorry. 

If the show quality puppy is out of a champion dam, and a champion sire, both of whom have been certified free of genetic diseases, their puppies are worth more than the $200 pup from the newspaper. A lot more. The breeder has put thought into the pairing of the dogs, and while it may have an issue (that might clear itself up on its own), it will still be a well bred dog that will probably be all that its owner wants it to be. The stud fee could have been $1000 or more. Their puppies are worth more because they put more time, effort, and money into the breeding and the breeding animals. It does not guaranty perfection. 

It costs just as much to produce a dog with a fault than it does to produce a dog without the fault if you are doing things right. They have offered to replace this puppy, that is making it right.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> Quoted by Selzer: A show quality dog might grow too big, might not have the proper angulation, or the proper temperament or the proper coat to win in the ring. Show quality does not guaranty a championship. Sorry.
> 
> If the show quality puppy is out of a champion dam, and a champion sire, both of whom have been certified free of genetic diseases, their puppies are worth more than the $200 pup from the newspaper. A lot more. *The breeder has put thought into the pairing of the dogs, and while it may have an issue (that might clear itself up on its own), it will still be a well bred dog that will probably be all that its owner wants it to be. The stud fee could have been $1000 or more. Their puppies are worth more because they put more time, effort, and money into the breeding and the breeding animals. It does not guaranty perfection.
> 
> It costs just as much to produce a dog with a fault than it does to produce a dog without the fault if you are doing things right.* They have offered to replace this puppy, that is making it right.


:thumbup:

Absolutely!
Less chance of a later on genetic defect as well. Lots of respect for the breeders that do think of these things.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

selzer said:


> A show quality dog might grow too big, might not have the proper angulation, or the proper temperament or the proper coat to win in the ring. Show quality does not guaranty a championship. Sorry.


True but I think there is a difference between shipping a pup as a show prospect and then that dog later grows to be too big versus shipping a pup as a show prospect who already has a visible fault.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Side note: and I apologize about being off topic.
A few years back United Airlines admitted to having something like 20,000 animals die in transit in something like a two year period. Not good stats in my opinion.
(I'll look it up and get back to y'all)
I knew someone that worked cargo at San Jose Airport and got really pissed off at his co-workers for teasing crated dogs being shipped.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled topic. Sorry for the jack.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Teeth can change, a LOT. Both my show prospect males had overbites. One outgrew it, one didn't. Ironically the one that outgrew it had a far worse one at an earlier age (not just an overbite but teeth were not lining up right on one side, retained tooth on the other side, etc). The one that did not outgrow his did not have a visible overbite at 8 weeks. To evaluate a puppy simply based on the milk teeth doesn't make sense.

Was this puppy really guaranteed as a "show prospect"? Jiri and Hans breed working line dogs, albeit with nice conformation and capable of V-rating but I did not see the OP mention that the dog was specifically chosen as a show prospect. If that were the case she should have specifically asked about teeth. I learned my lesson with one dog and when I got the second as a possible show prospect I asked specifically about teeth.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Most puppies are shipped with visible fault:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

if you want a show-prospect, it is much better to wait until they grow out some, GMO.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Exactly. If the conformation is really important, don't take the gamble. I like to show my dogs, but I also like getting puppies and am OK with taking the gamble. Even if the breeder does offer some sort of "replacement", I don't need to make good on that (because typically I've picked the specific litter and helped pick the specific dog). No hard feelings. These are dogs, not cars or computers.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Really,

I can't cover every possibility in a short post.

First I am not suggesting people buy dogs off Craig's list.

Second. I'm not suggesting that any little old thing someone does not like about the dog they purchased is cause for a refund. I even stated that under the contract
he is not obligated to refund any cash.

Third. I did not read every word of the entire thread. So show dog, working dog, was not the main point. 

It was a fairly high priced dog from what were supposed to be good lines and it was shipped with a fault.

$3,000.00 is a lot to pay for a companion animal.

Most breeders are very well protected under their contracts.

All I was getting at is sometimes (that means on rare occasions) for the sake of your name, reputation or whatever, it pays to bite the bullet refund some money and everyone is happy.

Apparently people don't do that anymore.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How much is "a lot to pay" for what category of animal is really a personal preference. And all dogs have faults, no dog is perfect. Plus, puppy teeth aren't really faulted because they can be really crazy. Sometimes they come in perfect, other times they don't but I don't know anyone who bases decisions solely on the puppy teeth. Also pretty much every good breeder out there has a few people that are unhappy with them. That happens when you breed for decades and ship puppies all over the world. Expectations aren't always communicated. You can't just throw money around in order to establish your name and reputation. The quality of the dogs speaks for itself. Some of the most extensive warranties and refund policies I've seen are from breeders who you couldn't pay me to own a dog from. Refunding money is not what makes a breeder reputable and knowledgeable.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Yep. You are right .

People could pay $10,000 and accept whatever the breeder sends, because they have already bonded with it or they really like the color or whatever.

I would never do that but if you have it you can spend it anyway you want.


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## ValleyGirl (Dec 31, 2010)

In my opinion, this thread has lots of irrelevant arguments. For example, consider that a "contract" is not the final answer in some buyer/seller cases. Don't know what state law applies so don't know if dogs are considered goods for purpose of the following comments. But in many if not most U.S. states there is a commercial code that applies to give buyers a remedy even if the contract terms are seem not to afford a remedy. Let's say the seller advertises/offers house (exterior) paint for sale. Then the buyer enters into a contract to buy the paint and that contract clearly states that the seller does not guarantee the paint. Buyer applies the paint the the exterior of his house and it washes off at the first rain. Under the theory that a product must be fit for the purpose for which it is sold, the buyer may not be bound by the contract language and may be able to get his money back. Why? Because the seller's representation that the paint was for exterior use raised an implied warranty of fitness for a perticular purpose and the paint was not fit for that purpose. Agruably buyer would not have entered the contract if he had known the paint was unfit for exterior use.

Not saying this applies here but that's how I see it here "morally" if not legally. If as I understand it, a buyer goes to a reputable dog breeder who represents that his dogs are of superior quality because of their parents or whatever, and the buyer says he is interested in showing the dog, then it seems to me the argument is that the buyer would not have entered into the contract in the first place (regardless of its terms), if he had known that the breeder would ever ship a puppy to a show home with an obvious flaw that would keep the dog from being shown. That is, the dog is not fit for the particular purpose that the seller knew the buyer had for the dog before the contract was signed. No one can say for sure whether the teeth will correct or not. So the simple solution would have been for the breeder to tell the buyer prior to shipment that the puppy had this obvious fault which might or might not correct and let the buyer decide whether to take the chance or not. 

Puppies are not widgets and breeders know well that people bond quickly with dogs. That is why the return policy works in favor of the breeder and imposes on the breeder some type of moral obligation not to ship a dog that the buyer has not seen if that dog has an obvious fault that may not correct. Just saying.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No one can be sure whether ears will stand or not. All those pups in the whelping box have standing ears now, but at eight weeks it is an obvious flaw. If one of them did not stand, should the puppy buyer come back to me and demand money back?

What if they tried taping or gluing or cropped the ears? Should I have to pay because they butchered their dog?

Teeth may clean themselves up, a testicle may drop, the ears may stand. And they may not. 

The buyer bought a show quality puppy, but they are not guarantied, not really. Oftentimes, people will write into their contract what they will do if a, b, c, does not happen. This is for people serious about showing usually, where two testicles, proper dentition, and ear carriage truly matter.


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## rblanshan (Jun 23, 2011)

Question: From what I can tell, the broker offerered to allow her to keep the dog when the dog reached 6 months AND offered a new one as well. Wouldn't it be cheaper/or a wash if the broker/breeder refunded the amount she spent on getting the teeth pulled (@$500 I think?). She bought the dog wanting to do Sch work (if I remember correctly). The vet advised pulling the puppy teeth, so the dog would not be in pain. It is being argued that she never should have pulled the teeth because the situation could have corrected itself, but her VET said the dog was in pain. The adult teeth will grow back in, hopefully correctly, but at that moment, the dog was not comfortable...so do we let the dog be miserable just to not void a contract? She is not even upset about not getting a refund, she is upset about not being told upfront about the situation of the teeth, which is understandable. The broker has a contract he wants to stick to, which is understandable. Both have good arguments and I admit, I think higher of the broker since he has offered her a new puppy, while still keeping the one she has. However, I don't know if I would want a second dog, while the one I have is only 6 months old. Let's say the second puppy costs $3000...why not just refund her the amount spent to pull the teeth. The broker isn't out as much as giving her a puppy, but she has some cash to apply towards vet expenses. I am only suggesting this because he offered to let her keep the dog and get a new one, if he hadn't offered that, I would not suggest he give her a refund, I would just sympathize with her for what she is going through. None of us want to see a dog hurting and we trust our vet enough (hopefully) that if they tell us our dog is hurting, then the dog truly is.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

BreederAd:

Puppies from great lines. No idea what you might get on arrival. No Warranties. As is.

$3,000.00


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

rblanshan said:


> Question: From what I can tell, the broker offerered to allow her to keep the dog when the dog reached 6 months AND offered a new one as well. Wouldn't it be cheaper/or a wash if the broker/breeder refunded the amount she spent on getting the teeth pulled (@$500 I think?). She bought the dog wanting to do Sch work (if I remember correctly). The vet advised pulling the puppy teeth, so the dog would not be in pain. It is being argued that she never should have pulled the teeth because the situation could have corrected itself, but her VET said the dog was in pain. The adult teeth will grow back in, hopefully correctly, but at that moment, the dog was not comfortable...so do we let the dog be miserable just to not void a contract? She is not even upset about not getting a refund, she is upset about not being told upfront about the situation of the teeth, which is understandable. The broker has a contract he wants to stick to, which is understandable. Both have good arguments and I admit, I think higher of the broker since he has offered her a new puppy, while still keeping the one she has. However, I don't know if I would want a second dog, while the one I have is only 6 months old. Let's say the second puppy costs $3000...why not just refund her the amount spent to pull the teeth. The broker isn't out as much as giving her a puppy, but she has some cash to apply towards vet expenses. I am only suggesting this because he offered to let her keep the dog and get a new one, if he hadn't offered that, I would not suggest he give her a refund, I would just sympathize with her for what she is going through. None of us want to see a dog hurting and we trust our vet enough (hopefully) that if they tell us our dog is hurting, then the dog truly is.


He offered the pay the $89 his vet would have charged.

Why should he pay $500 that she was charged!?!?

Many breeders will often say, "let me take the pup to my vet and lets see." I see nothing wrong with that as I know a few breeders that operate that way.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

you (general you) can go back and forth till the cows come home..Chrissy loves this puppy, it is what it is, he's still a baby, and at this point no one can predict the future whether his bite will fix itself or not..

I most likely would have pulled those baby teeth if I was told he was in pain as well.

Why go back and forth on who should pay what to do what,,it's done, end of story. sorta


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## rblanshan (Jun 23, 2011)

Her vet charged more than his vet, plain and simple. I used to own English Bulldogs and let me tell you, with that breed, medical expenses were all over the board. In discussions with other bulldog owners, one owner's vet charged them $500 to remove cherry eye, my vet charged me $70. So what if her vet charged her $500...that was what she was charged. I bet if she knew at the time that his vet would only charge $89, then she would have gone to his vet. My point was, instead of giving her a new $3k puppy as the broker has offered to do as well as let her keep the puppy she has...so she would then have 2 $3k puppies for the cost of 1, why not just cover the surgery cost. I think most of us on here would find that very generous of him to do, yet he's not out another dog. $500 is significantly less than $3k, so if he is ok with being out $3k, why not just agree to pay the surgery and only be out $500. I have been reading this thread for the last several days and only offered my opinion after the broker stated he would give her a new puppy in addition to letting her keep the one she has. If he hadn't offered that, I wouldn't have offered my opinion and as stated previously, do find that very nice of him and going out of his way to rectify the situation whether he's obligated to or not.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Hunter Jack said:


> BreederAd:
> 
> Puppies from great lines. No idea what you might get on arrival. No Warranties. As is.
> 
> $3,000.00



The warranty is readily available on the breeder web site (as I said earlier). Everything the broker said falls within the terms of the warranty.

That said, many European breeding transactions are exactly as you say, in all seriousness. Not everyone is obsessed with every little detail being someone else's responsibility. We're talking about living animals with genetics we don't completely understand. If someone is not OK with with chance the puppy might not be absolutely perfect, don't make the transaction. Get a dog that is older and whose conformation can be fully evaluated.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

rblanshan said:


> why not just refund her the amount spent to pull the teeth. The broker isn't out as much as giving her a puppy, but she has some cash to apply towards vet expenses.


The broker and breeder have offered to help pay for vet costs, replace the puppy and take the current one back, or replace the current one and not take it back. I don't see how anything else could possibly be expected. The reason why I would not expect the breeder to foot the vet bill is because 1) where the heck does it cost $500 to have puppy teeth pulled? and 2) what's next, now breeders are responsible for vet costs b/c the puppy has pano, or worms, or this or that.... No, when you get a dog, things are going to happen and it will need to see a vet and that is the responsibility of the owner unless otherwise stated in the terms of the contract.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Okay this thread is getting ridiculous and it's getting tiring repeating myself like a broken record so can a mod please close this thread? 

The puppy in question did not cost me $3000, and I never intended to show him so I have no idea where that came from. And I have CONTINUOUSLY stated that over and over and over that this has NOTHING to do with resentment from being declined any money or what have you. I KNOW WHAT MY CONTRACT STATED. Let me repeat: I KNOW WHAT MY CONTRACT STATED!!! My disappointment is that the breeder was not upfront with the situation regarding his teeth. I don't know why people are just focusing on the money and what the breeder should do, etc etc. I know what my contract stipulates and it really does not concern me at all that I would not get any money back. 

I have also CONTINUOUSLY stated that the breeder did offer me another puppy, even going as far as letting me keep my current one. I have also stated that I declined. He upheld his end of the contract, I just choose not to accept it because I no longer wish to support this breeder. So once again, THE BREEDER UPHELD HIS END OF THE CONTRACT. It is just my personal opinion that he does not live up to my basic moral values so I no longer wish to do business with him.

Also, pulling teeth is done under anesthesia. How anyone can get an anesthetic procedure done for under $100, even with the best 'connections', I have no idea since anesthesia alone typically costs $100+. I should know.

I thought I would be given full disclosure on any issues regarding health since he is so highly recommended. I thought that was what responsible breeders do. Apparently I did not have all my ducks in a row, or whatever the saying is. I have accepted the situation as a lesson learned and moved on AGES ago and am happy with my little boy so please do the same.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks chrissy, hopefully your post will put it to rest..

with that said, HOW IS KAI??? I'd love to see new pics of him,,I'll bet he's getting big!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think vet costs depend on locale. MI is very cheap in general, so vet prices reflect that. My pup had a puppy tooth pulled for free and he was sedated, not put under. For a full dental I believe he would have been put under but that costs about $150 including extractions.

I think the main issue here is how people view teeth, what constitutes good/bad, whether the breeder sees a bad puppy bite as a "health issue". I'm pretty picky about teeth. Like the OP I would be very disappointed with a bite like what was shown in the photos. But a lot of people (especially those who have been breeding for a long time) are much less concerned by the bite of the puppy teeth. Since I am admittedly picky about teeth, I now know that if I get a puppy at 7-8 weeks, there's always the chance it will be going back at 6-8 months if the bite is really bad. I was really worried about Pan for a long time and always had it in my mind that I might have to trade him (because at the time his bite was bad enough to effect his ability to do SchH, not just a small cosmetic overbite like Nikon's). Luckily, it straightened itself out and is now faultless. In hindsight it may seem like such a huge deal but even being picky about teeth, when I went to get Pan I totally forgot to check the bite until after we left. I was so enamored with the puppies it blew my mind (but didn't matter, since his bite didn't go bad until he started teething). If the breeder is not picky on puppy teeth, I doubt they are regularly checking them. Like Hans said, no one intentionally shipped a puppy with a faulty bite, it was just an oversight, or the breeder is one that doesn't evaluate teeth until the dog has adult teeth coming in.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Liesje - quick question. Was Pan's bite issue noticable BEFORE you got him and did the breeder notify you PRIOR to the sale?

That is my issue with this whole thing. How could a breeder NOT notice a bite that bad prior to selling the puppy?

Yes, puppies are living creatures, yes they can change greatly as they age ... BUT

If I am paying to obtain a puppy for a specific purpose I expect the puppy to be physically suitable for that purpose when I buy them. After that it's a total gamble.

For example, if I had a puppy picked from a litter at 6 weeks of age and the breeder knew I wanted to show the dog I would sure as heck expect the breeder to tell me BEFORE I make the effort to get the puppy that it only had one testicle down.

Then it's on ME to decide if I want to take the gamble of the other one not coming down BEFORE there's any emotional investment involved.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

And just so that everyone knows what Chrissy is talking about, here's the pictures:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Liesje - quick question. Was Pan's bite issue noticable BEFORE you got him and did the breeder notify you PRIOR to the sale?
> 
> That is my issue with this whole thing. How could a breeder NOT notice a bite that bad prior to selling the puppy?
> 
> ...



Thanks. Lauri and the gang


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## rblanshan (Jun 23, 2011)

Chrissy, I apologize for assuming the dog cost $3k, I got that from another post and thought it was a fact. I know you didn't expect money back and agree that you should have been notified about the bite before hand. I think what happened afterwards, the inability to get a hold of the broker and then being chastised for the decision you made (pulling the teeth) is what you were most upset about. I want to thank you for this post because I will remember this next dog I get and I will ask the breeder to revise the contract if there is not something in it regarding how long I have to wait to hear back from the breeder before making a decision based on my vet's recommendation. If I have contacted the breeder on a daily basis, for a week, and have not heard back from them, does it still void the contract should I go ahead and allow my vet to perform a procedure to rectify a situation that is causing the dog pain, but does not constitute life threatening. However, as a small business owner, my husband and I regularly find ourselves going beyond what we are legally required to do for our clients, even though we do not make any money from it, or actually lose money because it takes a few hours of our time....because we care about our clients and know that a happy client will be back and refer us to others. We may not totally agree with the client, but if we go out of our way for the client, the client will remember that in future transactions. We try to treat them the way we would want to be treated if the situation were reversed. I am glad you are happy with your dog and wish you many, many happy years together.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Liesje - quick question. Was Pan's bite issue noticable BEFORE you got him and did the breeder notify you PRIOR to the sale?
> 
> That is my issue with this whole thing. How could a breeder NOT notice a bite that bad prior to selling the puppy?


No, his bite went south as his teeth were coming out and new ones coming in. There was nothing to notice at 7 weeks old. The new ones were coming in all wonky and some of the puppy teeth were not coming out as they should. I had several people telling me I was crazy, he was fine, don't touch him and several people insisting I take him to the vet yesterday and have them pulled. I ended up having one retained canine pulled because he was going in for x-rays anyway. Once I noticed the teeth were bad I pulled out the Koer's of the parents (had a German speaker help me with the German one) and had an acquaintance actually go to the breeder's home and check the teeth on the parents. I got some other information from the owners of the littermates and decided to wait it out, there was no indication that his teeth would end up terrible. Within two weeks Pan's bite went from causing bleeding b/c of how the canines hit the gums to being darn near perfect, and now at 11 months the bite is faultless. I don't know if removing the canine mattered or not, when I had it pulled it looked like it was finally dying (starting to change color) but the vet did it for free.

I understand what you're saying about the breeder not noticing but I think there is a huge range of what breeders consider worth noticing. We can't assume that everyone is as picky about milk teeth as some of us are. Like I said, some people thought I was crazy for not having Pan's teeth worked on sooner and others insisted I was crazy for making a big deal out of it. Many breeders just don't care how the teeth look until the dog is done teething. Pan is a good example of how quickly they can go "bad" and then become a non-issue again. So even if the dog had shipped with a perfect milk teeth bite he could have ended up like Pan and stayed that way. Hans has already clarified that to them, bad puppy teeth are not considered a deal breaker. He would have no way to know that it was such a big deal unless the buyer said beforehand that correct teeth are important. I was prepared to return Pan if the bite didn't even out and before I even made the deposit I asked questions about the warranty and what exactly it covered. As it stands I am pretty picky about teeth and conformation so I made the decision not to import a dog but go to the breeder's house so I could check the puppies and parents for myself because I know that my idea of "correct" is not the same as other people's and I won't fault them for that.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

A puppy's teeth/bite can be correct at the age of 8 wks...and change within the next 4-6 wks, and stay "off" until the second set/adult teeth have fully erupted.
Even then...the lower jaw can still be "moving"......_most of the time_...if the upper and lower canines, line themselves up correctly....the bite will be fine in the end.
Some dogs have weaker under jaws, and it has nothing to do with dentition.

Having said that.....All puppies should be readily checked by the breeders, so that they are aware of potential problems.....*correct* dentition at the time of sale or placement ..should be checked...JMO.
Excellent breeders and bloodlines (such as Hans has) can have issues that periodically happen....nothing in breeding is 100% free of potential problems.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think it is right to close a thread because the OP wants it closed now that the broker has come on and some of the individuals agree that there is more than one side to the story.

There is a problem with just paying this person $500 for vet fees because of an issue that they would have let grow out a bit. I understand that buyers will believe their vets more than breeders, but that makes all vets out to be knowledgeable AND ethical, and all breeders to be scoundrels, which, if you travel down to the nutrition sites you will see is not necessarily the case all the time. And, with that $500, the case is not necessarily closed. In two months, maybe the pup develops a fatty cyst which their vet feels needs to be removed. Are they going back to the breeder and charge another $400 for cyst removal? Maybe they find some meth-head vet that tells them that the claws on the front legs, are dew claws and need to come off, should have been removed at two to three days old, now it will cost $800. And back to the breeder we go. 

In any other business, you would get a couple of estimates, or you would allow the person who is going to pay for the job to have their vet evaluate. If the broker/breeder is going to pay for something, they should have some control over it. 

I agree that in the course of years, some people are not going to be 100% happy with you. The answer is not to pay that person off. Stand behind your dogs and your breeding practices, and follow through with terms and conditions of your contracts. I work with people who have an issue. I had someone find a heart murmur, and they took the pup to a specialist who did an EKG, and they felt the pup would out grow it. I extended my cash back warranty for that instance. Should I have known about that murmur? The pup had been to the vet two or three times, every time the pup's heart was listened to, and no mention of any problem. The pup grew out of it in three weeks. No one suggested I pay for the EKG. So I am not saying you need to stick to your contract to the extent that you do not take care of the customer, but puppies are not perfect, and paying for all the puppies' vet care, without having any control over what care is given will put all breeders out of business fast. 

It is just as possible to have good dentition at eight weeks old, and a bad bite when the pup matures. That skull has to GROW a lot. And we all know that puppies grow a little here, a lot there, and not necessarily exactly in proportion throughout the process.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Main thing is the breeder said he missed it..that's all. They breed a lot of puppies and ship them all over the world and it's like they can't make a mistake. You show me a breeder that hasn't made a mistake and I'll show you a liar.

They made a mistake, apologized and tried to correct. With this breeder you will encounter more positive reviews/opinions than negative. As with everything...we are all human and prone to a mistake.

And with the issue of vet's and their costs like Liesje said, it all depends on where you live and also your relationship with the vet. Some breeders get a huge discount or favor since they do take their dogs to the vet. Repeat business = lower costs than what the ordinary guy walking through the door would get.

I agree selzer.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I agree selzer. Nowadays, customers want you to pay them off. If not  they will go on the internet and tell everyone how horrible you are. People now instead of calling a potential breeder first, they go get opinions on the breeder. Many times it is 2nd & 3rd hand information and could have been from a disgruntled customer who was a nut job. It happens..... Im not saying this particular thread about this situation is the case but it makes you look at the whole breeder/customer relationship and really the breeder can never really win. If the go by the contract then people bring in morals. If they cave in to whatever the customer demands then they are paying them off and being held hostage. If they don't do what the customer wants then then are slandered across the internet and the breeder has to defend themselves in the court of public opinion as people generally side with the customer. Hard business.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> Main thing is the breeder said he missed it..that's all. They breed a lot of puppies and ship them all over the world and it's like they can't make a mistake. You show me a breeder that hasn't made a mistake and I'll show you a liar.


JMO

They should thoroughly check each puppy before shipping them off. If they can not take the time to look over each puppy before they send them to their new homes then maybe they should not breed "a lot" of puppies.

I have not gone through a reputable breeder yet but I know that if I am paying alot of money for a puppy (to me anything over $1000 is alot of money) then I want the breeder to check the puppy over before I get it and I would hope that they would tell me any problems it has before I brought the puppy home.

JMO


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> JMO
> 
> They should thoroughly check each puppy before shipping them off. If they can not take the time to look over each puppy before they send them to their new homes then maybe they should not breed "a lot" of puppies.
> 
> ...


I understand. After $1000 you want a perfect puppy and a breeder shouldn't make a mistake at all. If they make a mistake, they are not "reputable".


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> I understand. After $1000 you want a perfect puppy and a breeder shouldn't make a mistake at all. If they make a mistake, they are not "reputable".


No, that is not what I am saying. I am not saying I want a perfect puppy, I am saying that if there is clearly something wrong with the puppy, deformed legs, overbite, half an ear, whatever, that I want to be informed about the problem BEFORE I get the puppy.

There is no excuse why a breeder should not check over a puppy before sending it to its new home.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Breeders are supposed to spend time with their puppies to get to know their personalities so they can match the right pup with the right owner, so to me there is no excuse why a breeder would miss something wrong with a puppy and send it off to its new home.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> I understand. After $1000 you want a perfect puppy and a breeder shouldn't make a mistake at all. If they make a mistake, they are not "reputable".


That is not even close to what LaRen said.

Does anyone actually read these posts or do they just go off.

Ace952. You have been defensive about this breeder from the beginning.
We get it you love the guy and his dogs. Fine buy more of them.

Just because you love the guy doesn't invalidate others views.

To me I don't care if people agree or disagree. I just wish they would read exactly what someone said and not misinterpret it.

Everybody knows there are no *perfect* dogs, people, horses etc. 
So why do you and others keep reminding us of that.

The question for me is do buyers have any rights if they don't get what they pay for? Example, you buy a show dog that turns out you can't show.

A working dog with a bad bite.

I don't have an answer I just wonder.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> I don't think it is right to close a thread because the OP wants it closed now that the broker has come on and some of the individuals agree that there is more than one side to the story.
> ...


She doesn't want it closed because the broker came on. She wants it closed because other people who are ostensibly on 'her' side of the situation posted things that were not the case - $3000 pup, pup wanted for show, etc. - and are stirring a pot that doesn't need to be stirred.

She had stated that she felt the breeder and broker upheld their end of the contract and that the reason she is/was disappointed had nothing to do with any breach of contract. She has been consistent with this since the first post. It is others who brought the contract into it. She stated she is keeping the pup, is happy with the pup, chooses to go elsewhere for a pup in the future (which is her perogative) and as far as she is concerned, the matter is closed. The broker posted saying he understands why she is disappointed (so he doesn't consider her to be totally out in left field) and explained why things happened the way they did and provided the broker/breeder side of things, none of which the OP has tried to argue. OP and broker have remained perfectly reasonable and I don't see that it's to either's advantage to have people debating pseudo-facts in this thread.

If people want to have an ongoing discussion about theoretically what should/should not be in a puppy purchase contract, or how a breeder or purchaser should conduct themselves once a problem (or perceived problem) occurs, that can be done in another thread so it does not make people who don't read the whole thing carefully (and that seems to be a lot of people ) think it had anything to do with this particular incident.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hunter Jack said:


> That is not even close to what LaRen said.
> 
> Does anyone actually read these posts or do they just go off.
> 
> ...


Yes and no. 

If you are buying a puppy to be a show dog, you can stipulate in the contract what happens if the testicles do not descend and if the ears do not go up, and anything else that the buyer brings up as a concern. Both buyer and breeder sign the document. Both receive a copy. 

If for some reason other than those stipulated in the contract, the puppy cannot be shown, oh well. Puppies ARE a crap shoot. Let's say the puppy attempts to bite the judge and is banned. Breeders fault? Owner's fault? The thing is it could be either. 

If you buy an adult dog, lets say you buy a white adult female with titles and hip and elbow certification, and you go away with her, enter her in an AKC show and are completely horrified that she is disqualified by her color. You go back to the person who sold her, because he sold her as a show quality dog. He informs you that you can show in UKC shows. Does the buyer hold some of the responsibility here, or should the seller refund her money?

If you buy an adult dog as a show dog for the purpose of showing the dog, and after you take the dog home, you realize or you have the dog evaluated and they inform you that the tail has been broken or there are teeth missing or some other conformation fault that would make it next to impossible to show the dog, then immediately you should contact the breeder/seller and return the dog. Hopefully you bring your knowledgeable friend with you, or you find the faults prior to buying the dog. And if you buy a dog sight unseen, and shipped to you, you have a time frame where you can return the dog if it is not what you are looking for.

I guess that one should not purchase a dog for a specific purpose without having any knowledge, and then go back to the seller and demand their money back. This is NOT a reflection of the OP on this topic, but rather an answer to a hypothetical question. 

A show-quality pup at 8-10 weeks old does not necessarily equal a show dog at 12 - 18 months. 

If you buy a yearling race horse colt, and at 2-3 years old there is some reason the colt cannot be raced, do you get your money back? If he simply does not win, does not place, do you get your money back?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

It is a very tough situation in any case when a puppy bought for a specific purpose is found to be perhaps unsuited for that purpose.

I suspect in any case where there is a third party involved it can get even more convoluted.

From the little that I have heard of this particular case, that particular puppy should not have been selected and shipped to that buyer - the breeder and/or broker should have checked the puppy and certainly either would have seen the bite problem, I would certainly assume. 

OTOH, perhaps the buyer did react too quickly with the surgery - I don't know as i am not a vet and knowledgable about the medical options. I do know that only the most cold or dedicated to a purpose could ever send a puppy back after having him for 6 months - so the common remedy in a lot of contracts for show dogs is a joke in real life.

However, the offer that it seems that the broker made seems most fair to the buyer and about all they could do to remedy an admitted slipup. I would certainly consider him as a place to get a puppy.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

stealthq said:


> She doesn't want it closed because the broker came on. She wants it closed because other people who are ostensibly on 'her' side of the situation posted things that were not the case - $3000 pup, pup wanted for show, etc. - and are stirring a pot that doesn't need to be stirred.
> 
> She had stated that she felt the breeder and broker upheld their end of the contract and that the reason she is/was disappointed had nothing to do with any breach of contract. She has been consistent with this since the first post. It is others who brought the contract into it. She stated she is keeping the pup, is happy with the pup, chooses to go elsewhere for a pup in the future (which is her perogative) and as far as she is concerned, the matter is closed. The broker posted saying he understands why she is disappointed (so he doesn't consider her to be totally out in left field) and explained why things happened the way they did and provided the broker/breeder side of things, none of which the OP has tried to argue. OP and broker have remained perfectly reasonable and I don't see that it's to either's advantage to have people debating pseudo-facts in this thread.
> 
> If people want to have an ongoing discussion about theoretically what should/should not be in a puppy purchase contract, or how a breeder or purchaser should conduct themselves once a problem (or perceived problem) occurs, that can be done in another thread so it does not make people who don't read the whole thing carefully (and that seems to be a lot of people ) think it had anything to do with this particular incident.


THANK YOU. It's like you read my mind!

Diane, I will post pics when I have the time. Always busy busy busy with work and the little guy.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would also like to say THANKS Stealth, A really good post, that bears repeating. 

If you all want to hash out what he should do, she should do, what color the moon is tonite, start another thread..This one has been beaten like a dead horse. 

Chrissy, thanks, would love to see him


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Just a short add......

did not read all 12 pages.....not offering opinion on what breeder/broker did/didn't do....

Looked at the photos...I have a good friend with now maybe 6 year old male -

-- Matsch Von Der Huelhin Haus - German Shepherd Dog

Ike had a normal bite at 8 weeks - at 6 months he had a much worse bite than the photos here....really one of the worst I have seen on any dog of any breed - an inch or more behind I would say. The dog did well in bitework, got his Sch1 with a good protection score, and has had no real problems eating or living. He did not get Sch2 and 3 because of his owner's work schedule and the economy (club over 100 miles each way - gas went through the roof)....not because of any handicap due to the bite.

So take the dog, work it, you can still train, you can still get titles - even if the adult canines on the bottom are missing - so you may lose a few points on grips...but it will not stop you from achieving the titles if you want to work the dog.

BTW - breeder offered a replacement, owner attached, so she refunded a major portion of his purchase price. There was no written contract. The breeder wanted to do something for the buyer...

Lee


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Breeders are supposed to spend time with their puppies to get to know their personalities so they can match the right pup with the right owner, so to me there is no excuse why a breeder would miss something wrong with a puppy and send it off to its new home.


I don't know why it was missed. They are a large breeder and it happened. I won't crucify them for it. Every breeder makes mistakes or has a complaint. Whether it's Jinopo, Eurosport or anyone else.

Stuff happens...just hope can correct and move fwd.
If someone feels they are not "reputable" b/c they missed it then so be it. That's how they feel and they are entitled to feel that way.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hunter Jack said:


> That is not even close to what LaRen said.
> 
> Does anyone actually read these posts or do they just go off.
> 
> ...


You say, "does anyone read?" You are the one who brought up the dog being $3,000, it was a "show & companion" dog. I never saw any of that.

Everything I have stated especially in the beginning was based on previous posts. Nothing has been made up.

I am in actuality speaking more of the situation rather than the specific breeder/buyer as I stated in the 1st couple of pages.

Who said I "invalidated" someone else's views? Please point it out.

Yes buyers have rights.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The $3000.00 and Show dog came from post # 59. I don't know where they got it.
I stated earlier that I didn't have time to read the whole thread. I apologize if I got things wrong. So to all I sincerely apologize. I'm done with this thread


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