# For anyone still in the Landshark phase - E-COLLAR!



## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Our Ninja has been a roller-coaster ride. He is too smart by half, athletic, and has drive through the roof!

He is the third GSD I've owned. My first was from a Seiger champion, and had his Schutzhund obedience training. I never finished his training (a divorce, long story) but I thought he had a lot of drive. Yeah... he was a pussycat compared to this one.

My second was just about the most perfect dog you could imagine. He trained _so easily_, I figured I had just gotten better and now I had the magic touch. Except, now I see it was just the dog was amazing. 

This one though... oh my! We've had a love-hate-love relationship for about six months now. There were times it seemed we were making progress and then he would do something that would frustrate me so badly I seriously considered becoming a cat person.

If we kept him totally worn out, we escaped the day without wounds. Other than that, he was good for most of the day and then about once or twice a day he would turn into some MMA fighter and nothing would satisfy him until he had a few rounds. 

This slowly started to abate as he approached six months. But two things remained as huge problems: Walks and Car Rides. On walks, he would try to take control. He wouldn't just try to pull us where he wanted to go -- disobedience on our part was met with discipline! He would aggressively bite my instep, and block my movement. This would especially be true if a car passed and I wouldn't let him chase it. This always turned into a "Now I must teach you a lesson" moment.

I tried everything. Treats. Distractions. Praise. Ignoring him. Picking him up and carrying him. Anything. Everything. Nothing worked. The end result was that I stopped taking him for walks. They were too exhausting and frustrating. We started driving him to a park to let him run, but then he started being car aggressive from within our car. He would snarl and growl at every car that passed. My ears would be ringing from the barking to the point every car ride turned into a migraine headache. The end result: No more car rides.

The scary thing -- that I worried about all the time -- is what would happen if he ever got out of the fenced yard... I was really worried about what would happen should a car come by.

On the day he turned six months old, I bought an E-Collar.

OMG, what a lifesaver!

I know there are some on here who will tell you that e-collars are inhumane and the only way to train a dog is with a clicker and positive reinforcement. To those people I would say: You've never met this dog. I would have said the same thing after my first two GSDs. This guy is different.

The e-collar changed everything. First, I bought the best I could find and it has over 100 levels of stim. Second, I put it on my bare leg and tested it at varying levels. Yeah, as I approach level 100, it isn't pleasant. But it isn't like getting tazed or anything. (My son is an MP in the army. He's been tazed as part of his training. He told me that the collar is not even close.)

Secondly, I slowly worked my way up the stim levels with him. I was waiting for any indication that he felt it, slowly increasing the stim one level at a time. He feels it at level 55. I've felt level 55. It is like a nine volt battery on a tongue. Which is something I used to do as a kid on a dare. It's not something that you laugh about, but it is a LOT less pain than getting yanked by the neck with a prong collar.

The collar has a nick button and a continuous button. The nick button is what I use 99% of the time. As a car approaches, I tell him to leave it. If he starts to go after it, I tell him No! and hit the nick button. He bristles when it nicks him, but other than that, you'd barely know he got nicked. Three times now, I have used the continuous button because he was aggressively going after a car. Yeah, that makes him cry out. I hate that, but I would rather him cry out now, than end up under the wheel of the UPS truck some day.

But, remember I told you he was smart? Now that he knows the nick can lead to continuous, he never pushes it that far. And here's the best part: He doesn't even know I am the one hitting the nick button. Unlike popping him with a prong collar, the e-collar does nothing to harm our bond. As far as he knows, I am simply warning him before God-Almighty punishes him. 

We are now going for long walks, and he is just fine. We just got back from the park -- someplace we hadn't been in a couple of months. Now that he no longer is snarling and barking at cars, we'll be doing more of that. Guess what? He is a lot happier now. We are getting out to new places. He is spending more time doing things he loves to do. And I am enjoying it all for a change. Talk about a win-win! He hardly ever gets nicked any more. Now when I say: "Leave it" he listens! What a concept!

The other great thing is the effect my stern "No!" has now. Even when he is not wearing his collar, he is listening to me now.

Not that all is nirvana in my house. Every now and then, he still wants to tussle, and he can still be pushy -- but that's fine. It's easy to take now because it isn't a three times a day thing. And my wife's hands and arms finally don't look like she has been beat with a cat of nine tails.

I know some people are going to recoil in horror at this post. Let them. If you have a high drive dog who won't listen no matter what you do, mark the six month anniversary on the calender, and buy both you and your dog a present. It will change everything.

More info on the proper use of an e-collar can be found on this member's site:

E-Collar Forum


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

There are already a gazillion threads about e-collars here, many of them with recent posts on them. Lou Castle is a member of this forum and posts frequently. 

BTW, how old is your puppy?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I thought you were supposed to use continuous to make him uncomfortable and stop the stim when he did the desired behavior?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sunflowers said:


> I thought you were supposed to use continuous to make him uncomfortable and stop the stim when he did the desired behavior?


One of the reasons I don't recommend the e collars to people is generally they don't use it properly and so it doesn't work.

What does work is finding a good trainer, attending the weekly classes with your dog, and both of you learning as the weeks go on.

Knowledgeable trainer, consistent training, teaching and learning on both the dog PLUS the owner makes my dog end up brilliant.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

MarkJoel60 said:


> I tried everything. Treats. Distractions. Praise. Ignoring him. Picking him up and carrying him. Anything. Everything. Nothing worked. The end result was that I stopped taking him for walks. They were too exhausting and frustrating. We started driving him to a park to let him run, but then he started being car aggressive from within our car. He would snarl and growl at every car that passed. My ears would be ringing from the barking to the point every car ride turned into a migraine headache. The end result: No more car rides.
> 
> On the day he turned six months old, I bought an E-Collar.
> 
> ...


I am glad you posted this! I will be getting an e collar for Kaylee very soon and using Lou Castle's training methods. I thought e collars were bad due to all the negative comments made all over the net. Lou changed my mind about it. I went to the store and tested one on myself just like you did. I have been reading the, How To... and learning everything about using the e collar properly. I am glad you have been successful using the e collar and training methods provided  

Positive reinforcement is good but for Kaylee it is not enough. Lou also gave me a link about rank drive and how to use it. The info provided here is excellent and it has worked for us, Civillian Home


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> One of the reasons I don't recommend the e collars to people is generally they don't use it properly and so it doesn't work.


:thumbup:
Exactly that. 

It seems the general population is under the impression that the way to get your dog to listen is to shock 'em every time they do something you don't want them to


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> BTW, how old is your puppy?


Just Shy of 7 Months now.



Sunflowers said:


> I thought you were supposed to use continuous to make him uncomfortable and stop the stim when he did the desired behavior?


IDK. I guess that was the old school way, but not what is being taught by anyone I know. 

I use it exactly like I would do the training with a standard leash -- I just use the e-collar in place of the standard leash for corrections. The nice thing is it is easier to be precise with the correction, whereas "popping" the leash is sort of a variable. (I still have him on a leash, btw. That doesn't change. I also still reward good behavior, praise him when he does it right, and the rest. This is simply another tool in the toolbox. Different dogs require different methods.)




KayleeGSD said:


> I am glad you posted this! I will be getting an e collar for Kaylee very soon and using Lou Castle's training methods.


Sounds like you are on the right track then! It isn't magic, of course, but it is a great tool. Good luck, and keep us posted as to how it progresses!


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## Ageizm (Nov 11, 2012)

Feb. 25th 2013 *marked on the calender*

Great that gives me a little over 2 months to start doing research on E collars, and time for him to do maybe 2 classes before I start implementing it. I'll be checking those links =)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The ecollar is just another tool nothing more nothing less.

My own opinion is it is a great surgical tool for certain issues but I am not particularly fond of it because, improperly used, I have seen dogs loose some of the ooomph they need to be true independant decision-making working dogs. It is hard to describe but the ones I have seen have had some aspect of their personality flattened. It really really is hard to get across what I am saying unless you have seen it. I guess the difference between obedience and partnership.

I know the claim is it can work in this venue and am sure, in the right hands it may. I think you have to be very good with it to make it work this way else you can result in too much of a velcro dog (and Lou addresses that though I am not sure why you linked to his site the way you are using the collar at a 55; when I used his methods for some things all was below 20 (actually around 6!) and his school was escape training-training with the dog at continuous low stim but low enough the dog was clearheaded-not a correction shock like others use)

I do have a high drive and hard dog, and this coming from police master trainers who have helped steer me down a path of solid control A PROPERLY used pinch correction will not damage your relationship with the dog. 

As far as positive methods not working on some dogs. MEH. The more I learn the more I think a great trainer can train with a very limited repertoire of corrections. I am not where I want to be yet with this but it humbles me when I see a teammate do things with my very headstrong dog using only positive methods and makes me realize the possibilities. 

Though I use corrections, every day I try to be better and better as a positive trainer. I see the police using more and more positive methods in their own training these days.

EDIT- I guess the issue I have is "for anyone in the landshark phase". Not sure how but we got through it relatively unscathed with a little monster with patient redirection. This is done all the time with very bold puppies with much in the way of fight drive as adults.


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## Ageizm (Nov 11, 2012)

I honestly only see myself using this collar to layer in 3 commands that I have deemed the most important.

1. Recall ( He must come when called)
2. Leave it/Stop ( he must release what he has or disengage what he is pursuing)
3. Stay until released ( He must stay put till I say so for his safety and others)

Also this device will be layered on top of what will already be months of positive training methods, but to me these 3 commands are not something that my adult dog can decide whether or not he is going to obey, these are mandatory. As I believe these commands, if not absolutely obeyed, can put his life in danger. So I'll be sure to study through several methods and talk to trainers to be sure it's done correctly. From what I've learned so far an E collar properly implemented is the "icing on the cake". As long as you've baked a good "cake" this will only make things that much better.

I've seen 2 dogs shot by police in NYC, a few stabbed and others hit by vehicles (a lot of badly trained/abused pit bulls sadly). Big dogs induce fear and someone will hurt your animal if you can't control it, I won't let that happen.

I wouldn't use the collar for "tricks".... If he doesn't want to rollover or fetch or give paw, for the millionth time, that's all fine with me but those 3 aren't up for discussion, it's a matter of safety.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This is true. But plenty of working dogs (police, search and rescue) are trained these commands with a high degree of reliability without the ecollar. 

I work an offlead cadaver dog and it is imperative that I have a bomproof recall under distraction, as well as a drop/stay. I was taught by a bomb dog handler/ K9 officer without any tools but a ball on a string. 

Just saying those are valid uses for using it, not opposed to someone who wants to train with it, but don't think it is the only way to skin the cat.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Same here. Indra never needed an e-collar to get a reliable re-call while outside training. She never needed an e-collar for a reliable re-find either. There was something far more powerful involved and that's a ball on a string.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> The ecollar is just another tool nothing more nothing less.
> 
> As far as positive methods not working on some dogs. MEH. The more I learn the more I think a great trainer can train with a very limited repertoire of corrections. I am not where I want to be yet with this but it humbles me when I see a teammate do things with my very headstrong dog using only positive methods and makes me realize the possibilities.
> 
> ...


Positive reinforcement is what I used for Kaylee to teach basic OB. A ball was her motivator to become engaged. The methods were used as provided by our trainer and classes we went to. These methods only went so far with her. For the landshark phase I kept her on a leash in the house and did the appropriate corrections as needed. I mentioned in another post exactly what I did with her http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/195503-im-so-ticked-right-now-6.html#post2647777

What my plan is when I start training with the e collar this is to make sure recall, sit, and down is reliable. Right now Kaylee listens 90% of the time and for 8 months old that is okay. Right now we are still working on rank drive and making our foundation rock solid. This also involves positive reinforcement I still use it every day for different activities we do together.

On leash she listens 100% of the time and does excellent. I need her to do the same off leash. The e collar training was also suggested by our trainer as a possibility. I need Kaylee to be reliable off leash. I am in no rush to push the training right now I have all the time in the world. My goal is to do this the right way and make sure the day I leave this house that Kaylee is 100% trained, reliable, and happily working.

Honestly if she would have been much worse during the landshark phase I probably would have gone with the e collar earlier ( 6 months old). I think it depends on the dogs individual behavior and how bad it is.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

KayleeGSD said:


> Honestly if she would have been much worse during the landshark phase I probably would have gone with the e collar earlier ( 6 months old). I think it depends on the dogs individual behavior and how bad it is.


Could be it depends on the skills of trainer. I am pretty sure the dogs the police work with are some pretty tough customers. Some use ecollars, many don't. 

Never had a trouble with the landshark phase though.


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## MattLink (Oct 23, 2012)

I don't smack my dog for misbehaving. Not because I think it'll hurt him, I know full well that a tap on the side or nose won't hurt. I don't smack him because I don't want our relationship to be based on fear in any way. When I see a dog owner move his hand and the dog flinches, my heart breaks. 

This is the same reason I won't use an e-collar. I don't want him to avoid something because he's afraid, I prefer he knows better. So I put in lots of time and effort. Everyone has their own feelings, but this is how I feel about it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Could be it depends on the skills of trainer. I am pretty sure the dogs the police work with are some pretty tough customers. Some use ecollars, many don't.
> 
> Never had a trouble with the landshark phase though.


I agree with you on that. My question would be how the training is done what did this person do and more important how did they do it to be successful with this particular dog. I ask myself okay this is what I am doing and I will take into account maybe I am doing something wrong. I myself found out I was reading certain things wrong with Kaylee. I am always willing to listen to people who have real knowledge and experience training dogs. Even our trainer had some really good ideas using the positive reinforcement methods that were new to me and successful when practiced. 

When Lou Castle gave me suggestions about greeting behavior and rank drive I took the time to read it and learned a lot. It also made a HUGE difference with Kaylee when applied.

Yes skill levels do matter when training any type of dog. There are many methods one can learn and use. I have a problem with people rushing out to get any training tool and not take the time to learn how to use it correctly. Same with not being consistent when training. 

The e collar is a training tool some people like it and use it and others do not. If I exhausted everything that I did and I was not successful. The bad behavior jumping, lunging, biting, grabbing continued to escalate and become worse and more aggressive. Then I would have used the e collar to help train and correct the behavior. I cannot have a dog jumping, lunging, biting, or grabbing people. During that time it was hard and I had my moments of being frustrated. I was lucky that I had help and suggestions from our trainer and reading about different ideas online from other pet owners. I certainly would not have ran out bought any tool with out learning how to properly use it first. It seems like with each dog that I have had they have made me learn something new. There are so many things to learn so any chance to improve skill levels is always a good thing


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

MarkJoel60 said:


> I know there are some on here who will tell you that e-collars are inhumane and the only way to train a dog is with a clicker and positive reinforcement. To those people I would say: You've never met this dog. I would have said the same thing after my first two GSDs. This guy is different.


That is the real important thing about using an e-collar, or any kind of punishment/correction techniques, it all depends on what works for the dog. Some dogs NEED some sort of physical stimulus. I think there is a line with positives only on one side, and negatives only on the other. A good trainer, lies somewhere in between. Anyone whose relationship with their dog starts to deteriorate because of corrections, is a very BAD trainer, no matter how obedient the dog is. and on the other side, anyone who has a fantastic relationship with their dog due to using positive only training, but can not get them to obey, is also a bad trainer, and as I say a good trainer should lie somewhere in the middle, using as much positive re-enforcement as possible, along with discipline when needed.

Im glad that MarkJoel has had success with the e-collar, BUT to anyone thinking of getting one, please PLEASE for the sake of you and your dog, make sure you research them THOUGHOUGHLY!!! so that you can use it correctly, and you dog can get the idea.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's not inhumane - that alone is not the issue. 
But you're missing out on some very important bonding processes with your dog and inviting in some very unwanted behaviors. 
I'd advise anyone thinking of using one so early in a dog's life and for such mundane things...well, mundane, easily fixable things, to find a positive only/clicker trainer and go with them.
If you're trying clicker and positive on your own, you're likely not doing it quite right, because it does work. 
To write it off without giving a trainer the benefit of showing you the correct way, that's as bad as buying a collar and simply shocking the dog into "behaving".

A "for instance" for you. Bark collars. Same principle. I use them. I've used them. Batteries are all dead now so not using now but I don't mind using them, but I use them because they work - while the thing is on.
When it's off, you realize quickly you've not taught the dog anything other than "when the collar's on, it hurts to bark".


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Wow. This is the most disturbing thread I've read in awhile.  You've got ordinary 'pets' under a year old being "trained" to not do puppy things with an E-collar. What I see are high drive dogs that were placed into the wrong homes, and owners who don't have the patience to train a dog and go through puppy hood.  Guess it's easier to go buy a shock collar and read some internet directions than to GO to a TRAINER. SMH :crazy: 
Worse thought... they *aren't* high drive dogs, but just your average GSD pup in the wrong hands.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, when people see their puppy as a destructo-dog, when any misbehavior (land shark, too) is seen as "a bad dog", or "more stubborn than others", this is the result.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

In other words, typical GSD puppy behavior. One of the many reasons why people say "just because you want it, doesn't mean you should have it" and "these dogs are not for everyone". Poor pups.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, I do think there is a tendency today for people to get Ferraris when they are used to driving Volvos..everyone wants a high drive working dog then gets overwhelmed by what would be considered normal behavior.

That and some of the stuff coming out of BYBs where there may be no knowledge of what happens when you combine the lines improperly etc. Perhaps I guess could result in something not typical with normal working line dogs from police service backgrounds. I guess...what are the pedigrees on these wild crazy pups? Are they normal or some funky weird aberration? I was about to throttle my dog at 7 months but I felt he was normal for a high drive working bred dog, and patience and consistency won out.

My guess is these pups are "normal". I could not have raised my current dog without some external help as well as some history with working dogs. He is a real handful but I had the right resources to help me in getting where I need to be in a non confrontational manner and without harsh correction.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd be curious too, as well as curious to know what has been tried. 
As in another thread/s, the person had slapped muzzle, stuck fist down throat, squeeze muzzle, squirt with squirt bottle, etc.

Just as, before chalking a dog up to "food aggressive" when the only thing that has been done is stick your hand in the dog's bowl. 

I firmly believe the way you interact with your dog can make a budding problem better, or worse, depending on what you do and how you handle it.

If owners are making their dogs worse, instead of curing said problem, by their actions, how is it fair to haul out a shock collar, when it was a training issue to begin with, never properly addressed?

That is - why punish the dog for 1) being a dog and 2) doing something you caused to happen? (biting harder for instance)


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

That's what I love about the internet... everyone's an expert...

Without knowing a thing about me, my methods, my dog, or anything... some of you have made judgments about me -- even to the point that I guess some think I shouldn't even own a GSD!

Must be nice to be so opinionated, and not be troubled by those fact thingies...

That's OK though. Because I figured there would be plenty of "I'm a better trainer/owner than you" bigots come out of the woodwork. There always are. I didn't make the post for you anyway -- since clearly no one can tell you a thing about GSDs that you don't already know...

But for the rest of you, read up, study it, and don't be afraid to add it to your toolbag. It works.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

How many obedience classes have you taken with your dog?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mark, I don't know what you've tried. 
My posts are posted to help others understand to try different training methods before chalking your dog up to a hoodlum and shocking it.

What I read in other posts is there's not really many dogs out there who are so incorrigible as to need e-collars to train them, nothing else will work.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is this thread any different than the one that got locked recently? Lou hasn't chimed in yet.....
This post perfectly sum's up every e-collar thread: 


> BUT to anyone thinking of getting one, please PLEASE for the sake of you and your dog, make sure you research them THOROUGHLY!!! so that you can use it correctly, and you dog can get the idea.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

You know I find it funny how many people seem to think that because someone went out and got an e collar they must be a horrible dog owner. That the e collar is a last resort tool. It is not. Any training tool can be used in an abusive way especially with a new dog owner who has no idea on the how to when it comes to dog training. When I say tools I am talking about regular collars, leashes, halti tops, prong collars, slip collars, and any other type of training devices that can be used on any dog. I see the e collar as a tool nothing more and nothing less. What I like about the e collar is the fact that it is hands free operation during training unlike using a leash and collar. It is operated using a remote. People constantly say you need to put your pup in classes. It seems like that is a answer to all the questions and training problems people might have with their dog. They can learn to be better from the classes and experience new methods but there is no guarantee that any particular method is going to work the same on every dog.

Today you will see a HUGE number of positive reinforcement only trainers and that positive reinforcement is the only way to go along with clicker training. I believe it takes a combination of things depending on the individual dog and owner. Classes are great to take but it is not going to take care of everything either. Also, depending on the individual dog trainer methods count too...

One fact I want to bring up with many of the positive reinforcement only trainers and classes many of these trainers will not allow you to use a choke/slip collar, prong collar, or e collar on the dogs. Other trainers will. I had to go visit classes and talk to the trainers one on one with a list of questions before I signed up. I find not allowing collars and corrections to be ridiculous and not every trainer out there is a good trainer. I had to dig around to find a good one in my area. If someone wants to get an e collar, research how to use it properly, and then train their dog with it themselves good for them. Everyone has said make sure you learn how to use it properly and if you need to seek an experienced trainer then by all means do it. 

An e collar is a choice of training tools to train a dog with. If someone decides that is what they want to use regardless of classes or other methods they have that right. My only concern is to make sure they learn how to use ANY training tool correctly.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KayleeGSD said:


> One fact I want to bring up with many of the positive reinforcement only trainers and classes many of these trainers will not allow you to use a choke/slip collar, prong collar, or e collar on the dogs. Other trainers will.


I would like to point out that while this is true, the same goes for other trainers who choose to use things like a prong. I had to buy a prong for my dog to go to a class that was held at the local GSD club. I went once and that was enough, because what I saw made me sick. There was not one dog in that room that would be considered not reactive. They had muzzles on most of them. The teacher had to put me on the other side of the room. So if this is the result of training methods other then positive or even positive with some corrections then NO THANK YOU.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KayleeGSD said:


> Today you will see a HUGE number of positive reinforcement only trainers and that positive reinforcement is the only way to go along with clicker training. I believe it takes a combination of things depending on the individual dog and owner. Classes are great to take but it is not going to take care of everything either. ...


Why do you think there are such a huge number of positive trainers? Some of these trainers have been training for years and have used other methods, but switched to positive..why is that? Positive training can take care of everything if a person puts the time and effort into it. I'm not against prongs or e collars, but I prefer not to use them. I haven't ever had a need for them. And to use them on a puppy is not a good option. Training is life long, puppies need to be puppies before they can be dogs.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I guess my response was because the orignal premise was the encouragement of anyone with a high drive headstrong 6 month old puppy in the landshark phase to jump aboard and mark their calendar because the e-collar is the solution of choice.

I don't know too many folks who train with ecollars even consider using it at this point for that purpose. 

You have recently had their first "magical" experience with the e-collar and have not had time to look at other dogs (or their own dog over time) trained with one and start putting together pros and cons in their heads. 

*Never* claimed to be an expert -- always something new to learn --- yet myself and some of the respondents have raised multiple GSDs, and WL GSDs without; that is all we are saying. 

I actually have a testimonal on Lou's site about using the collar for crittering on a difficult dog but I never used it for anything else and never felt the desire or need to use it with the next two dogs who were acutally more driven AND intact males. Did not use it with her for obedience either. I respect Lou, think he has some good insights. Don't think anyone has all the answers.

So all I ask is for people to think long and hard. The typical ecollar dog I know wears it for all its waking hours with due diligence paid to rotating it to prevent sores, and the handler must have the remote handy all the time. I decided this was not a choice I personally wanted with my goal being pure obedience with a completely naked dog. 

And if you talk with folks, even Lou, you will see most *do* expect the dog to wear the collar most of the time as a way of life. Else they will become "collar smart". 

So it is a decision I would encourage people to look at and decide if this is a way of life or a surgical tool or even not needed at all.

I see very few people criticizing other PEOPLE about their choices but rather the choices they are suggesting others make. Go back and re-read the thread and you will see what I mean. All these claims about you being horrible dogs owners are being read somewhere between the lines and not on this thread. 

There are only a few "in your face" comments but not from those who have made comments suggesting another approach.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I would like to point out that while this is true, the same goes for other trainers who choose to use things like a prong. I had to buy a prong for my dog to go to a class that was held at the local GSD club. I went once and that was enough, because what I saw made me sick. There was not one dog in that room that would be considered not reactive. They had muzzles on most of them. The teacher had to put me on the other side of the room. So if this is the result of training methods other then positive or even positive with some corrections then NO THANK YOU.


These videos are interesting with some good points made. I am not sure if these were shared on here or not but I shall post it,

Positive Reinforcement Vs. Corrections Part 1 - YouTube

Positive Reinforcement Vs. Corrections Part 2 - YouTube


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KayleeGSD said:


> These videos are interesting with some good points made. I am not sure if these were shared on here or not but I shall post it,
> 
> Positive Reinforcement Vs. Corrections Part 1 - YouTube
> 
> Positive Reinforcement Vs. Corrections Part 2 - YouTube


I got as far as the Part 1 about half way through when I decided that while I might agree with some points I absolutely do not believe that a dog stops listening to commands when food is not present. My golden just turned three and he was trained with positive training and 2 years later he is even quicker with the commands without food that he was back then. I do agree that when you have one tool that you become creative. There are so many exercises that can be done positively so the dog truly learns to understand. I want a dog that knows how to make choices. To make choices because they made them and not because I corrected them a million times. I can't tell you how many times trainers I have gone to have said, let her think, she will do the right thing. And they are right, she does.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

KayleeGSD, I agree with almost everything you've said in your posts, but I wanted to chime in with two things:

First, you're wasting your time. When people use terms like "Shocking your dog into submission" it is clear to me that they either did not read my post, or can't read for comprehension, because I have never said anything close to that. Believe me, Ninja has not been shocked into submission. He is still the happy GSD he's always been who wakes me every morning by licking me in the face, and follows me around all day hoping for a chance to play. The only time he looks even a little bit like a scared submissive dog is when I call him for a bath -- but that's a different scenario (and no, I don't shock him when he doesn't come for his bath...) 

Listen, people are going to believe what they want to believe, so my advice would be raise the dog the best you can and ignore the people on here that have minds like funnels.

Secondly, this isn't quite true:



KayleeGSD said:


> What I like about the e collar is the fact that it is hands free operation during training unlike using a leash and collar. It is operated using a remote.


The way I do it, it is not hands free. I still use the leash, but I have one hand on the leash and one hand on the e-collar control dangling around my neck. So, in that respect, it isn't easier. It has other advantages, which I outlined in my first post. But it isn't a hands free solution. If you wanted to use it to teach recall, of course, that would be different. But stopping unacceptable aggressive behavior, and training him not to chase cars -- these are all things that I do while he is on a leash AND on the e-Collar. FWIW.

I'm no expert. I just read everything I could, and took the basic behavior techniques used to shape a dog's behavior, and put the e-collar into the mix. 

I thought of doing a quick YouTUBE video showing it in action, but the "problem" is that Ninja is such a perfect gentleman when we are out for rides and walks that I haven't nicked him in days.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I got as far as the Part 1 about half way through when I decided that while I might agree with some points I absolutely do not believe that a dog stops listening to commands when food is not present. My golden just turned three and he was trained with positive training and 2 years later he is even quicker with the commands without food that he was back then. I do agree that when you have one tool that you become creative. There are so many exercises that can be done positively so the dog truly learns to understand. I want a dog that knows how to make choices. To make choices because they made them and not because I corrected them a million times. I can't tell you how many times trainers I have gone to have said, let her think, she will do the right thing. And they are right, she does.


That is great that your golden has done so well. I am looking to make one simple point. It worked for your dog and it is a wonderful thing to happen using only positive reinforcement. This is not the case for many people out there. I am not looking to crush anyone's ideas, methods, or say I am right. All I am saying is look at all the tools and methods and find out what works for you and your dog. 

What I question is what happens when you have a dog who does not make the correct choices? Or a dog who does not respond to food, toys, or praise? In a real life situation out in the open some dogs will not respond and engage in dangerous behavior. There are many tools and methods to teach people the how to. If some one uses positive reinforcement only and they get the dog to do then that is great. If some one decides they want to use an e collar and train properly using this tool that is great. 

I would not stand there and correct the dogs behavior a million times and push them into anxiety mode to make sure they finally get it. I believe it is a balance of using tools/methods that work when correctly applied which depends on the individual dog, owner, and situation. 

I myself use a combo of positive reinforcement, and corrections. Positive reinforcement is not the only way to go with every dog out there. You have many methods and tools to pick from. It is about what works for the individual dog & owner. With every tool available there is a right way and a wrong way to use it. It is up to each individual pet owner to do the research, take classes, ask questions and find out for themselves what works. Select the tools find out how to use them properly and learn as much as you can. Research trainers, classes, and people who specialize in dog behavior. If you want to use positive methods only then do it. If you want to use another tool you have that right. Just make sure you are PROPERLY applying it. I see so many negative comments about e collars along with a huge debate over them. People are going to use them and many have had success with the tool.

In the end the choices are up to us. No one is ever going to agree on training methods/tools. I for one can agree to disagree with respect. All I ask is for people to look at what is available and figure out what is best for them and their dog. Positive reinforcement, e collar, corrections, no corrections what ever they decide to use. I would think many people would agree on the proper use of any method or tool so if you do not know the how to you should take the time to learn what ever method/tool you decide on!


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

MarkJoel60 said:


> KayleeGSD, I agree with almost everything you've said in your posts, but I wanted to chime in with two things:
> 
> First, you're wasting your time. When people use terms like "Shocking your dog into submission" it is clear to me that they either did not read my post, or can't read for comprehension, because I have never said anything close to that. Believe me, Ninja has not been shocked into submission. He is still the happy GSD he's always been who wakes me every morning by licking me in the face, and follows me around all day hoping for a chance to play. The only time he looks even a little bit like a scared submissive dog is when I call him for a bath -- but that's a different scenario (and no, I don't shock him when he doesn't come for his bath...)
> 
> ...


I totally get that and it seems that people constantly like to make negative comments. With Kaylee the e collar training will be used to create reliability for the recall, sit, down, stay. The tool has so many positive uses and it seems you only hear about it when it is not used correctly.

I am glad you have had success in stopping the car chases. So for me I am not making any more comments on this thread I said my peace and thank you for sharing the experience you had with your dog! I will update Kaylee's progress when we start her e collar training


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I will update Kaylee's progress when we start her e collar training


So to clarify... with all the posts you've made on this thread, you've never used an ecollar, correct? Or you have, but never on this particular dog?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Sorry, if you can't get through the landshark phase without an e-collar... well... I'm inclined to think it's you and not the dog. :crazy:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Sorry, if you can't get through the landshark phase without an e-collar... well... I'm inclined to think it's you and not the dog.


Yep...it just makes me


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Verivus said:


> Sorry, if you can't get through the landshark phase without an e-collar... well... I'm inclined to think it's you and not the dog. :crazy:


One of my points. The other being the age of the puppy it's being used on. This is NOT an adult dog we're talking about. We're talking about a puppy. Some of the 'corrections' are for normal GSD puppy behavior. 

I'm not anti-ecollar. I'm open to that as an option for IPO training when my dog is actually a dog. I would not use it for puppy behaviors or for training the 'basics' of obedience to a pup. There are other ways. If you have a dog who doesn't respond to treats, toys, attention, etc. then I wonder if the handler has a bond at all with the pup.  Some critical steps have been missed. This isn't guesswork. I have a high energy, high drive dog. He seems to find ways to grab things when he's right next to me and requires constant supervision unless he's in his kennel. However, I know I don't have a bad dog. I don't have a disobedient dog. I don't have a dog at all. I have a puppy. He's displaying normal puppy behaviors. I brought this puppy into my home, and it's my job to teach him what I want him to know. It may take more time and more energy on my part, but this is what I signed up for. Training helps to build a bond. 

There are so many threads here that detail (step by step) how to teach your puppy to do "X", it's not funny. Sometimes you have to go through many trainer to find a good one. I will be driving to another state to make sure my boy gets the best possible training. They are there to teach the handler. Has anyone heard the saying "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is?"

Of course, they're your puppies, and you can do whatever you want with them. No one is debating that. However, putting those comments out there in a community that values this breed as something pretty darn spectacular, you must understand that there are things that every GSD owner goes through. It's like a 'right of passage'. Also, no one wants to see adult 'tools' used on puppies for being puppies. I'd like to see more open mindedness for WHAT people have, what is normal and deal with it accordingly. These stories make me think of using a cannon to swat a fly.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

I can't imagine anyone on here so critical of using an e collar has actually used an e collar correctly. At our dogs working level I can barely feel the "shock". A yank of a flat collar certainly hurts more not to mention an actual prong. Our dog is not "damaged" by it. The holier than thou attitude by many on here is a little bit annoying. You are all such amazing trainers,happy?


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

JPF said:


> I can't imagine anyone on here so critical of using an e collar has actually used an e collar correctly. At our dogs working level I can barely feel the "shock". A yank of a flat collar certainly hurts more not to mention an actual prong. Our dog is not "damaged" by it. The holier than thou attitude by many on here is a little bit annoying. You are all such amazing trainers,happy?


Excellent post.

I think its very frustrating when people come on here talking about how certain punishments are HARSH, or CRUEL!

in the wild, if these dogs got out of line, they would be BITTEN by the alpha, sometimes causing injury. A little shock, a prong collar or a smack on the nose, is NOT going to mentally harm the dog in ANY way. Constant bullying WILL cause the dog mental harm, but that is another issue, and not what this thread is about.

Positive re-enforcement is scientifically proven to be the best training method, you can not deny this, however, it can NOT fix all problems. A good trainer will use positive re-enforcement most of the time, including negative corrections when necessary. 

Just like humans, some dogs just ARE that stubborn and need physical stimulus to correct their behaviour, saying you dont agree with that just "Because", is igorant and foolish.

I attend obedience class, run by a retired K9 trainer, and a local Shutzhund club and ALL of the trainers in both of those places, use primarily positive re-enforcement for training, but when the dogs step out of line, then these use either harsh leash corrections, or a prong collar. My dog is only a baby at the moment, so I am not using any of these methods, but when she is an adult, if she shows disobedience, then she will be corrected, in any of the ways I mentioned above INCLUDING an e-collar.

Again anyone who doesnt understand the methods used, and has a moral high ground on this issue is just ignorant.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> So to clarify... with all the posts you've made on this thread, you've never used an ecollar, correct? Or you have, but never on this particular dog?


Don't really see the relevance....if Kaylee is to be criticized for being "for" e-collars having never used one I wonder where that leaves the countless people on this forum that argue "against" also having never used one.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think lots of people are missing the point here. I don't think most people are against the e collar, but are more interested in why people feel its needed(what other training methods were used first and why didn't those work)? I tend to agree that once a bond is formed between owner/dog, nothing can change that. The bigger question is the age of the dog. As I have said before a puppy needs to be a puppy and enjoy some of the things a puppy enjoys...it is not fair to take that away from a puppy because the owner can't handle the "landshark" stage.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Not opposed to using an ecollar in the hands of an experienced trainer.

Personal preference - no - I think it takes something out of the dog, even with low stim. And I strongly believe you CAN get reliability with other methods.

Opposed to suggesting it as the first line training for a normal boisterous puppy.

If a puppy has, due to lack of handler skill at dog training, gotten to be large and out of control it may be a tool of last resort. But not one I would want to go out and tell everyone else (particularly when you have a short amount of time or even zero experience with it) how "wonderful" it is and how they should use it. 

I have been there and used it (many hours on the phone with Lou) for an older pup with a very serious game chasing problem. I took the next pup and socialized it heavily with farm animals and taught him obeying me was a lot more fun that being interested in them at a very young age to cut off the behavior before it ever developed. If the chase is never allowed to happen, and all that prey drive is transferred over to a toy early on.....very early on.........it changes how the dog thinks about other animals.

Used properly, though it has its uses. I sure don't see every police dog or SAR dog wearing one, though. Actually very few, but some do. Reliability is an absolute must in those disciplines.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

There is a lot I can say here.....but you are using an e-collar at a FIFTY FIVE on a SIX MONTH OLD?!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

One thing I do when I read posts like this is to go back and read through the OP's old posts to get an idea of what has been going on. 

I am not sure why the 6 month mark has been the guidepost all along, but it is something in hindsight that I wish I/we had addressed. I do not think that 6 months is a magic number for a puppy to start acting in a certain (adult) way. Or to start adding tools/changing training up. 

It is interesting in how we look at a dog and what they do and interpret it. I think that this sounds like a fun dog that I would be looking at channeling some of that sporty drive and desire to interact with their person into using a tug as reward, taking some basic agility classes, etc. 

Nancy/jocoyn - some very interesting observations on the police/K9 trainers.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I will say there are some departments where ecollar use seems to be a mindset and others where it is not and only used if other methods are not working. So my report is based on my experience with those local to me. As far as nationally, what percentage use them, I don't know. But it gives me pause to wonder when I see a career Master Trainer for a port city police depatment using a Halti on her malinois (she is a long tim maligator person) for working through a problem....same trainer used an ecollar on her cadaver dog lab who was intent on chasing ducks.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

sparra said:


> Don't really see the relevance....if Kaylee is to be criticized for being "for" e-collars having never used one I wonder where that leaves the countless people on this forum that argue "against" also having never used one.


I just asked the question, was there judgement in my statement? 
I use an ecollar, never implied that I never used one or am against them. They have their PLACE in training, and there are times when there is no reason to use one.

I just want to understand that in all of her word y responses she's posted whether or not she's experienced enough to judge how effective they are compared to other methods.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

very good article to bookmark: http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch3.pdf 

scroll down to the *Electronic Hearing Aid*(no copy/ pasting allowed)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> very good article to bookmark: http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch3.pdf
> 
> scroll down to the *Electronic Hearing Aid*(no copy/ pasting allowed)


Nice article. Think that is all most on this forum are trying to say.

I will add that I asked a police Master Trainer, when I did something stupid, "how long do you have to do this not to need somebody WATCHING you and pointing out your mistakes" and she said, "NEVER, I have been doing this for over 30 years and still need an objective set of eyes to watch me and point out my mistakes"


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I think lots of people are missing the point here. I don't think most people are against the e collar, but are more interested in why people feel its needed(what other training methods were used first and why didn't those work)? I tend to agree that once a bond is formed between owner/dog, nothing can change that. The bigger question is the age of the dog. As I have said before a puppy needs to be a puppy and enjoy some of the things a puppy enjoys...it is not fair to take that away from a puppy because the owner can't handle the "landshark" stage.


Totally agree!

I find it confusing that folks purchase a puppy already fully aware that it is not going to be a cute little ball of fur, ready to snuggle 24/7. The behaviors a GSD pup exhibits in it's youth should be no suprise. They ALL have the same behaviors. Some to a lesser extent and some to a greater extent. 

Suddenly, everyone has that one off monster pup, worse than any GSD pup ever known to man.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think many purchase without having the slightest clue.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My only issue with the thread is the title and the information given. I think its more than fair for some people to dispute that a 6 month old puppy needs an ecollar in order to get it out of the "landshark phase." I've been randomly rebuffed plenty of times when a fact that I stated wasn't "complete" and the reason given by the other posted was "just in case someone searched the forum, found your statement, and wanted to take it as 100% fact." (Most times completely out of the context of either the thread or the post).

So now, after this post, people will come on for advice on how to get over their puppy bitting, and will think that their monster is just as bad, or worse, than OP's monster. So then the only answer is clearly the ecollar. And that is just false, for the rest of us, we somehow managed to teach our dogs not to bite us without it. I know for sure all the dogs at my club get taught to not bite without it, and many of those people have had many many more GSDs than OP.

Maybe, this dog is worse than the hundreds that have come through my club, and the thousands that have been in the hands of all the members of this forum. But its pretty difficult to believe that, especially with how the OP describes the other things the dog does (sounds like a very good, sound, dog). I think the majority of us would not have had an issue if OP stated, I had my dog evaluated by a trainer and the trainer said this was the only way to teach your dog to do this. But from an arms-length point of view, to many of us, we have a hard time believing this couldn't have been taught with treats, redirection, or other methods that don't involve any kind of punishment or physical correction.

Anyways...back to the point of this thread giving out misleading information. I remember a thread not too long ago where someone posted about the magic of the ecollar and a new member responded by saying how they can't wait to get one because they can't potty train their 4 month old. They clearly thought that this magical tool would teach their dog to potty outside. So...how many of you would agree that a way to housebreak a dog is an ecollar (or any form or correction)? This is where this thread goes down a slippery slope...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> we have a hard time believing this couldn't have been taught with treats, redirection, or other methods that don't involve any kind of punishment or physical correction.


:thumbup:

If all that one can think of at this point is an e-collar, what will they do if they _really_ need one some day?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> If all that one can think of at this point is an e-collar, what will they do if they _really_ need one some day?


The next best thing will be a little chip that can be implanted. This chip will submit electrical current shock waves when ever the owner deems necessary. The handler will have a little device on their key chain, much like the device utilized to lock your car doors and set the alarm. 

The pup, pees? Shock. The pup whines in it's crate? Shock. The pup doesn't sit? Shock. Down? Shock. Stay? Shock. Paw? Shock. Crawl to it's bowl for dinner? Shock. Be totally still while the handler smothers it with affection? Shock. 

Instant Gradification.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

OP, what is your pup's breeding? He sounds like a handful!

I find it telling that most of the anti-ecollar people have never actually used an ecollar. I've never used one, but I certainly would if I needed to... I personally don't claim to be a great trainer, I use what works on each individual dog. Especially if the dog's life is at stake (stop, recall, etc) I will use whatever methods give the quickest and surest result without harming the dog. 

For some things like chasing livestock, I would use an ecollar if other methods fail--many dogs simply get the idea that they aren't supposed to chase stock when the owner is present--but if the owner is absent, it's a free-for-all! That's when you have to get the dog to internalize the no-chasing rule by setting the dog up, watching through a window or out of the dog's sight, so that the punishment comes from God Almighty. At least that's how I would do it. I'm sure someone will tell me it's wrong and that I shouldn't own a dog, etc.

The problem with ecollars, and others have already said this, is that most people don't use them correctly. It seems to me that the OP actually *is* using it correctly, after exhausting all other options. Some folks would simply kennel such a dog until he grows out of the landshark phase and becomes mature enough to train. 

The only problem I have with the OP's post is that the subject line seems to imply that everyone with a normal 6 month old landshark should slap on an ecollar and all their troubles will disappear. Some folks might read that and gloss over the parts of the post where he talks about his past experience training GSDs, the relatively extreme behavior of this particular pup (I'd call car-aggression at the age of 6 months extreme), and the fact that the pup *is* learning what is and isn't acceptable behavior, without his attitude and drive suffering.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Maybe, this dog is worse than the hundreds that have come through my club, and the thousands that have been in the hands of all the members of this forum. But its pretty difficult to believe that, especially with how the OP describes the other things the dog does (sounds like a very good, sound, dog). I think the majority of us would not have had an issue if OP stated, I had my dog evaluated by a trainer and the trainer said this was the only way to teach your dog to do this. But from an arms-length point of view, to many of us, we have a hard time believing this couldn't have been taught with treats, redirection, or other methods that don't involve any kind of punishment or physical correction.


Just curious, how can you use "positive" methods to stop car-aggression? Barking, snarling, wanting to chase cars? When a simple "NO" doesn't cut it?



> Anyways...back to the point of this thread giving out misleading information. I remember a thread not too long ago where someone posted about the magic of the ecollar and a new member responded by saying how they can't wait to get one because they can't potty train their 4 month old. They clearly thought that this magical tool would teach their dog to potty outside. So...how many of you would agree that a way to housebreak a dog is an ecollar (or any form or correction)? This is where this thread goes down a slippery slope...


It's not the OPs fault that people take things out of context, but I do agree that the title of the thread is misleading. Maybe the OP and the mods can agree to change the title to something like "my experience with an ecollar" or something less inflammatory.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Freestep said:


> The only problem I have with the OP's post is that the subject line seems to imply that everyone with a normal 6 month old landshark should slap on an ecollar and all their troubles will disappear. Some folks might read that and gloss over the parts of the post where he talks about his past experience training GSDs, the relatively extreme behavior of this particular pup (I'd call car-aggression at the age of 6 months extreme), and the fact that the pup *is* learning what is and isn't acceptable behavior, without his attitude and drive suffering.


That's exactly what I was going for. I'm not saying OP doesn't have experience, but I just know people with a lot more experience. Plus it sounds like OP went from 2 American pet line dogs, to a very well bred German WL dog that is just a bit more driven than their previous two dogs.

The car thing...definitely something that I've never had to handle, so if OP believes in using an ecollar for that, all the power to them. But the landshark thing (which the thread is focused on and named for), its very hard to believe that the ecollar was necessary. And its not information that I (personally) would want to spread to other people that might be new to dogs or the breed that run into the same issue. I've dealt with more than 3 puppies with landshark issues through my club, and haven't met a single one that needed an ecollar. Is there a chance that OP's dog is different? Sure, but to those of us who have dealt with more dogs than OP its hard to believe. And if that dog is the .01% of dogs that needs an ecollar to learn even the most basic of manners, I don't want to see someone with the other 99.99% of dogs (and much much less experienced as a handler) thinking that ecollar is the solution to all of their dogs issues.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think the title matches the content. Many folks would not have objected for this on an adult dog.

For a Dogtra a 55 is actually a pretty high stim. Not low stim like Lou Castle uses so I am a bit confused there about the actual methods and when the dog is actually getting stimmed. Any trainig I have done using his methods was under a very controlled set of cirumstances so I assume you would set the car situation up like a crittering and dog agression scenario and not be at the point where you would be having to stim a dog while walking down the street because you had already completed the training . FWIW my little female who totally ignored a clear shock from a cattle Denver (you could hear it arc and see her who body twitch) when i drive chasing a goat, has a stem setting of SIX for Lou's methods.

Once things have gotten to this point though correction probably is the only way to get to the dog, but once again it is all about timing timing timing. And you can do that with an ecollar OR with a prong when the dog is onlead. Offlead, the ecollar has some other capabilities.

Honestly, maybe we all need to put our heads together with a positive puppy checklist! I am convinced it can be done and keep going that way more and more as my own skills as a trainer progress--though maybe I will never quite get there. 

But punk puppy shenanigans? I just don't think it is usually necessary and should not be recommended to "mark your calendars" for some magical age.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cattle fence...not Denver.....Autocorrect...sigh


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

martemchik is making good "don't try this at home" type statements so that people who find this post don't think that this is the end-all be-all advice for this situation. I think that is important. 

I will do whatever, in the moment, if I think my dogs are being unsafe. But I really try to have and use a positive approach if there is time - using the 3 Ds - distance, duration, distraction http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/three-d%E2%80%99s-dog-training-and-why-you-need-know-about-them to teach and then proof before setting them up for hopeful success. So as an example if for some reason we get dropped off somewhere new and there is traffic that they have never experienced before, and they start to walk toward it, I am not going to grab my clicker and use it as a teachable moment, I am going to haul my dog back to me and that's it. But if I know this is something we need to work on, I am going to take the time to teach the dog what I want from them. 

I have some Chow mixes. My first dog of my own was a Chow mix. You learn on these dogs (much like cats) that you need to have more tools to teach them. Honestly using more positive methods is second nature to me now in how I think through an issue/problem because the other methods don't "stick" with them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> but if the owner is absent, it's a free-for-all! That's when you have to get the dog to internalize the no-chasing rule by setting the dog up, watching through a window or out of the dog's sight, so that the punishment comes from God Almighty. At least that's how I would do it. I'm sure someone will tell me it's wrong and that I shouldn't own a dog, etc.


Thing is...once the dog chases (when owner is not home) and no shock is felt, you then have a dog who knows that sometimes the shock is felt and other times, it's not, so it'll take the chance to chase.



> I'm sure someone will tell me it's wrong and that I shouldn't own a dog, etc


Not so - I'd simply ask what is wrong with a solid fence or other proper containment? 
I advocate electric fences and use one ourselves, to contain our dogs, but solid fence with solar panel for power, not one that'll fail in a black out.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Exactly, Nancy! I've actually been dealing with a wanna-be car chaser. Never crossed my mind to put an e-collar on him for this reason, either. It's not a quick fix by any means, but he's better now than what he was... and I expect he will continue to get better. If the timing is off, it really doesn't matter what method you use. Although my pup is the most determined and high energy pup *I* have ever had, it doesn't mean he's anything 'special' in the grand scheme of GSDs. I really wish that people who get a pup that challenges their knowledge base would go to a trainer. E-collars most certainly have their place. However, given the description of the 'problems' for which it's being used here, IMO it's over the top. Everyone wants the 'quick version' of problem solving. Shepherd pups have a whole host of 'issues' that are unique to them. Different lines, even, bring different levels of 'issues'. I think, though, that it's important to keep in mind that even when their bodies are large, these are puppies. Puppy brains that are full of all kinds of mischief. It passes quickly if you're looking at the big picture. What I see is someone who found themselves in over their head and wanted to quash the behaviors as quickly as possible. I fail to see how this is in the best interest of a normal GSD pup.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Not so - I'd simply ask what is wrong with a solid fence or other proper containment?
> I advocate electric fences and use one ourselves, to contain our dogs, but solid fence with solar panel for power, not one that'll fail in a black out.


Electric fencing and solid containment is a good option, but I have free-ranging poultry at my place (sometimes intentionally and sometimes not), and though my goats are contained, I don't want them terrorized. I've had good success training my own dogs to leave the livestock alone, not without casualties of course, there is a learning curve--but I don't think that I'm such a good trainer that I can teach ANY dog to ignore stock without going to an ecollar. 

First and foremost, I intend to choose my dogs carefully, so that I don't have a hyperdrive prey monster that would clash with my ideal bucolic lifestyle.  Some dogs are easier than others. For example, my Akbash Dog was genetically programmed to GUARD stock, not chase. With him it was ridiculously easy--he came to me already used to goats and poultry, and other than a couple of hiccups, it took very little training for him to be absolutely trustworthy. Livestock guardians are bred to have very little prey drive. 

GSDs, however, are bred to have a LOT of prey drive. Luka, despite her drive, was fairly easy to train; her biddability allowed her to redirect her prey drive to a ball in lieu of chicken dinners.  She made a couple of mistakes as a puppy, but since about 2 years of age she's been absolutely trustworthy with stock. She was the "pet" pup out of a working-bred litter. 

My next GSD will have to be a good match for my lifestyle; I won't take a high-drive sport prospect. I do like working lines, but in every litter there are those pups with less energy and drive, the ones that would probably find SchH a bore, and that pup has to go somewhere--hopefully to my place.  Stock-proofing will be worked on from day one.

FWIW, I've heard that tying a dead chicken to the dog's neck really does work, but I've never tried it. I'd probably go to an ecollar before I did that.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

The one comment I have about this thread ... Freestep ... a dead chicken tied to the dog's neck? LMAO ... OH wow ... Kyleigh would be in heaven trying to figure out how to eat it!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think it's a moot point to discuss the pros and cons of an e-collar in a thread where it's not being used correctly. I really don't see how anyone can say that using an e-collar on a level 55 (out of 100) on a 6 month old is OK.

6 months is still a PUPPY. And puppies can only take so much pressure before they are ruined and broken down, I'm sorry. And that level of stimulation on a dog that's not really in drive is asking for trouble. Yeah, maybe this OP just happens to have a super strong, hard, over-the-top GSD who feels nothing. But I'm betting that is not the case.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Freestep said:


> FWIW, I've heard that tying a dead chicken to the dog's neck really does work, but I've never tried it. I'd probably go to an ecollar before I did that.


No, it does not work. Speaking from experiance on this one. I was out of town at a horse show. Four of my Aussies got out, broke into the chicken coop and killed every one. Hubby found them, took hay string and strung dead chickens to each dog. 

They thought hubby was wonderful. He provided each one with thier own fast food. I got home and found dogs with hay strings tied to them. That was all that was left. Someone even ate most of the feathers.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Yeah, maybe this OP just happens to have a super strong, hard, over-the-top GSD who feels nothing. But I'm betting that is not the case.


Why? It sounds to me like it is exactly the case. The landsharking is pretty normal, but a six month old puppy being that car-aggressive is NOT.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Why? It sounds to me like it is exactly the case. The landsharking is pretty normal, but a six month old puppy being that car-aggressive is NOT.


Bologna. If you have a pup that never saw cars until a little later in life, you can most certainly have a pup that tries to chase cars. I fail to see how that behavior equals a pup who is more bull headed and doesn't feel pain.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Or my thought is that maybe the prongs aren't actually making contact with the skin.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> FWIW, I've heard that tying a dead chicken to the dog's neck really does work, but I've never tried it. I'd probably go to an ecollar before I did that.


No. It's not. 
FWIW, if you plan to have free roaming chickens you'd better have a secure yard or a breed known for protecting it's flock rather than herding them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...1177-whats-sense-walking-him.html#post2588241 was one of the first posts about it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> Or my thought is that maybe the prongs aren't actually making contact with the skin.


yes, that is totally possible as well. But I think it really needs to be emphasized that 55 is NOT a normal level to be using an e-collar, especially on a puppy. The problem with using extremely high levels is that people who have not used an e-collar might have a hard time really understanding and reading what is an appropriate level. All the OP knows is at those super high levels the dog yelps and stops the behavior...


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Agreed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ok...so after re-reading the OP and also the thread that Jean posted I just want to say that it seems OP has been taught to train in much more "old-school" methods and this is what he will resort to. I'm not judging this, but it makes sense.

This quote here "So... here's the thing... I know I can't really correct him yet. I have his six month birthday circled on my calender, believe me. Can't wait until I can start asserting my will on a walk for a change. But meantime, I think he is learning bad habits and creating bad patterns that are just going to make things harder when we get to real training." is really distubing to me. 

It's fine if you think getting shocked by a 9V battery is less painful than getting PROPERLY CORRECTED by a prong, but I would personally prefer the prong. I've never made my dog squeal, shut down, or anything else negative with a prong. We have an amazing relationship and my dog will do anything for me. I don't doubt that this dog might be doing just fine on the ecollar and its not killing his drive, but it would be nice to actually see it. I've licked a 9V battery once in my life, and just because it didn't kill me doesn't make it something I would do to my dog. If that's the feeling you're shocking your dog with, sorry, IMO its way too much.

I'm not going to question OP's abilities as a handler or trainer, but it just sounds like its a bit more oldschool and a bit outdated. I don't mind giving a hard, physical correction to my dog when he blows me off. But I would never in a million years subject my dog to that kind of discomfort (9V shock) over something he doesn't understand/know yet. This dog didn't understand he couldn't bark at/chase cars, and in training he was definitely subjected to unncessary pain because of it.

I've learned to accept that ecollars are a tool...but the way OP described using his is completely wrong and inhumane. I'd love to see this dog a few months from now if this continues. And sorry OP if you feel ripped or attacked...but posting your experience as a public service announcement so that others can benefit from your method that is still unproven and untested is just wrong. I would be shocked if some of the "ecollar experts" we have on this forum would ever approve of the way you have trained your dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My 2cents (and it probably won't make me popular

I have no problem with one using an e collar as long as they are using it properly.
I have never used one, I have never needed to use one

My opinion is, using an e collar on a dog that's less than a year old, tells me that the owner hasn't done their job in properly training the dog. It's really not that hard to train a puppy/young dog especially a gsd if you know what your doing.

I see to many people ill equipped for this breed and I see it on this very forum all the time. 

I guess I've just been lucky that all the gsd's I've had/have were pretty easy trainers, atleast in my mind they were


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm really not interested in having arguments online, so I won't be posting here much, but a few valid questions were raised, so let me try to address them:


 The Title of the Thread

People read it differently than I intended. My point wasn't that the e-collar stops all landshark behavior.


 Why six months?

It isn't that I expected my dog to be out of the landshark phase in six months. It was that many people I respect taught me that you should be careful not to administer corrections to a dog prior to six months because you don't want to inhibit drive. I can assure you that this dog has plenty of drive, and gets along fine in the house. He does not live in a "world of No." I didn't get the collar to shock him into submission. I got it to stop dangerous behavior in a way that makes sense.


 Using a prong collar is more humane than using an e-collar.

If you honestly believe this, you either havn't ever looked at both corrections, or you are out of your ever-lovin' mind. Let me put a prong collar on you and give it one hard jerk, and you'll never do it to your dog again. It is a lot more inhumane than a simple nick with an e-Collar. I've done the e-collar on myself as a test. I wouldn't do the prong collar as a test in a million years.


 Why are you using 55 as a stim level. That's too high!

Anyone who says that is ignorant, and either did not read my OP, or can't read for comprehension past a third grade level. Let me walk you through this again: I started at a stim of 1. I would hit the nick button and watch for a reaction. When I got nothing, I moved it up 1 and tried again. This took several minutes, with lots of pauses in between. I got the reaction when I hit 55. The reaction, btw, was not a yelp, or a start or any of that. He simply looked down at the ground puzzled.

Let me repeat: at 54, _there was no reaction at all_. At 55, he looked down at the ground. Telling me I should be at a stim of 20 just shows your total ignorance. Every dog is different. Some have thick fur... some have thin... some feel things easily, others don't. There is no "starting point" for an e-collar. When I read things like this, I know I am dealing with someone who really doesn't want to understand what is going on.

Finally, I am going to repeat the bottom line again for those who may have missed it: My pup's doing fine. He is the same as he has always been around me. This hasn't decreased his drive, made him skittish, or in any way changed our relationship -- except for one very important thing: he gets to do all sorts of fun things now. 

Just today we went to a friend's house that has a farm where he was running around and having a great time -- something I would have never done before. He gets more walks now, more car rides, and generally has a better life. I also haven't nicked him in days -- because he changed his bad behavior.

You all act like I have some sniveling pup who is obeying out of fear. This is so far from the truth it is laughable.

As far as all of those who say: "Well, I have had dogs with high drive before, and I never needed an e-collar." This is snobbish at best and ignorant at worst. The e-collar doesn't have to be an admission that I failed as a trainer and a line of last resort. It is simply another tool. Is using a "gentle leader" harness a failure on the part of the owner? Or a prong collar? 

And, as I said in my OP, my first GSD had high drive. He was the son of a Sch III father and a Sch II mother. Excellent lines. High Drive. He was great and easy to train. (Except for dog aggression, but that was something different.)

This guy is different. I thought Rook had a strong drive... but Ninja makes him look like a slacker. Dogs are different. If you can't believe that, than I really don't need to discuss anything with you any more because you have shown me what you truly are after here... and I'm not getting involved in it...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So what else are you doing as far as training your high drive pup? IS there an outlet that he can excel with his 'high drive'
Or are you just suppressing him? 
Anywhere else you go on a discussion forum with your opening post will get the same reaction, maybe post this on the WDF or PDB...I bet you won't find different opinions on this subject.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

With so many "ignorant" people here, I can't imagine you'd want to stay long anyway


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Just because you waited until the dog was 6 months old to use an e-collar does not mean you will not affect the dog's drive, especially if you don't know how to properly use it. Six months is not a magic number. FWIW I am not against using an e-collar for training. A tool is a tool and different tools work in different situations. I just think using an e-collar for curbing landshark behavior is strange and unnecessary and I personally would never do it.

From your post it sounds like you are using the e-collar by yourself with no supervision from a trainer. If you really feel it's necessary to be using the e-collar for this purpose you need to find a good trainer to show you how to use it properly.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, if no corrections *at all* were given for 6mos., it's no wonder the puppy was out of control.
I don't know who told you that, but it's not right.

It's rather like a toddler, if you are a parent. You don't wait until the child is 2yrs. old running around to teach him to not stick a fork in a light socket. 
You do little bits of training along the way, so by the time he's 2 he understands what "no" means and that when you say "no" you mean "no".


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

MarkJoel, you are starting to take this down a slippery slope of insulting people. It is one thing to challenge ideas and quite another to insult other people as being stupid if they don't agree with you. 

My apologies; I have known quite a few very hard intense dogs, none of whom needed more than about 20 for the low stim. It is hard to imagine a puppy needing 55. But the coat has nothing to do with it. The collar must be tight enough to make skin contact and the long points are supposed to be used if the coat is too thick or long. The fact that the dog cries out with a continuous stim at 55 tells me it is too high. You may not have been perceptive enough to see the sign he first noticed it...the skin movement, the ear twitch, whatever...but...crying out on continuous means it is too high. 

Of course dogs are different; maybe you should suspend your disbelief that others here can have dogs which are probably every bit as high drive, hard, and dominant as your own  and have gone a different route. It is most interesting that you find who anyone who disagrees with your own sage and experienced advice after a very short period of time with an ecollar as an moron, funnel-brain, idiot etc. 

Fine if this is working for you. Its your dog.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Of course dogs are different; maybe you should suspend your disbelief that others here can have dogs which are probably every bit as high drive, hard, and dominant as your own  and have gone a different route.


The difference is that I didn't jump into their threads and imply that they are ignorant, sadists and shouldn't even own a GSD. But if you read through this thread, you will see plenty of that.

For that matter, maybe I've missed it, but I've never seen anyone who uses an e-collar jump into a clicker training thread and say: "You should use an e-collar!" 

But my oh my, the "positive only" trainers have no problem at all making judgments about me -- and anyone who uses an e-collar.

That's a little one-sided, wouldn't you say...?


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> So what else are you doing as far as training your high drive pup? IS there an outlet that he can excel with his 'high drive'
> Or are you just suppressing him?


Oh my... The dog has plenty of chances to use his high drive. Flirt pole, two ball, I hide things and let him find them, I take him to the park and let him sniff around for things. I play tug with him. He gets plenty of chance to be a GSD. 

I just don't let him be aggressive towards cars.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Of course dogs are different; maybe you should suspend your disbelief that others here can have dogs which are probably every bit as high drive, hard, and dominant as your own and have gone a different route


I think our concern is your decision to use the e-collar to correct what is merely a play behavior in a puppy seems a bit harsh and may backfire in the long run, even if in the short run it eventually works.

I also think you are under-valuing the experience and background of many of us giving the advice. 

Most of us have seen or used the e-collar and would agree in its value in training. But the experience of the trainer, knowledge of the method, and age of dog can be a huge factor.

So if your only goal is to punish your puppy to stop the playful but painful biting, they e-collar will work.

Most of us no longer just look at an individual behavior we are trying to teach. Instead we have learned to be smarter and much more concerned with keeping a good relationship with our dogs so we are a trusted leader they want to interact and listen/learn from. My goal is to first build a relationship with my dogs and THEN I know I'll be able to teach them anything. Use of corrections is only my very last resort, and truthfully I agree with what someone else said for more life and death situations (and that is NOT my dog inappropriately trying to get me to play). 

I use my e-collar to assure a reliable 'come', and a 'leave it'. But STILL not as a punishment to nail them if they do not listen and then with as high setting. Instead, with the assistance of a trainer, I learned how to use the collar as a training aid to teach the dog the turn off the activation and it's at the lowest setting they feel. 

And I only use the e-collar at all AFTER going to dog classes with wonderful trainers if we then need to resort to it. 

aw:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I posted on your thread, and didn't judge you...but you still haven't answered my question. What are you doing _with_ your pup to help him excel with his personality? You obviously knew what you were getting into after having a couple GSD's previous, and knew the lines you were getting? 
Instead of squashing his natural drives, shape them to bring out his best! He is so young, you really don't even know what you have until his mind and body grow up more. Teaching him things, instead of getting out his energy may work his mind, which in fact will balance his body. 
Ecollar aside, think about the bigger picture. This puppyhood stage doesn't last very long, then what will you do with the dog?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MarkJoel60 said:


> But my oh my, the "positive only" trainers have no problem at all making judgments about me -- and anyone who uses an e-collar.
> 
> That's a little one-sided, wouldn't you say...?


Actually quite a few of the people you're referring to are NOT "positive only" trainers, and many of them have and do use e-collars. They just think there are more appropriate uses for the tool than the way you're using it.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I posted on your thread, and didn't judge you...but you still haven't answered my question. What are you doing _with_ your pup to help him excel with his personality? You obviously knew what you were getting into after having a couple GSD's previous, and knew the lines you were getting?


Actually, I did answer you... read back a few posts


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know, I was typing when you posted that...but are you doing anything to work his brain besides having him find things in a park? Teach him rear end awareness, back ups(when in a down too), side passes, 'place', directionals, track him? 
Those are brain exercises and work the body as well. It does make a difference. Doing things when the body is smaller is an asset too. I wish I'd have taught my pup more when he could maneuver his butt easier!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Actually quite a few of the people you're referring to are NOT "positive only" trainers, and many of them have and do use e-collars. They just think there are more appropriate uses for the tool than the way you're using it.


I am one who uses a prong and has used an ecollar and don't have an issue with it used properly. Even had a testimonial up on Lou's site. But I want to continue to learn new thinngs and am learning much from "positive only" trainers!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've put a prong around my arm and gave it a pull...doesn't hurt as much as you'd think. It's just like a tight squeeze...more like an "Indian Burn" than anything. You're not supposed to give hard yanks with a prong collar, they're actually not necessary as very little pressure will get through to most dogs. This is why a prong collar is preferred to a choke these days, the correction is quicker, more exact, and doesn't have to be as hard in order for the dog to "get it."

I really don't want to argue, but that statement shows even more how your methods are very heavy handed. And no, I'm not a positive only trainer, my dog usually wears a prong or a choke in training depending on what I'm getting him ready for. I really wasn't trying to say anything about your training style...there are plenty of folks out there that think like you, and many more that are probably willing to go even farther than you. My only issue was that your advice shouldn't be given to novice handlers and inexperienced people. A first time dog owner has no idea what high drive, low drive, hard dog, soft dog, means. If they go from lab to GSD of course they'll think their dog is high drive and hard, and yet it might be exactly the opposite, but when they read such advice because a week of redirection doesn't work, they might just strap one on and start shocking instead of sticking with time tested methods that have worked for 99.99% of us.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Really want to thank everyone for so many of the thoughtful and knowledgeable posts. Its amazing how much experience is reflected in these posts and I'm sure helping others if not the OP.

I used to not even know what positive training was and only knew how to train by setting up my pups to 'fail' because that way I could correct and give clear info to my dogs. I didn't know how to train by teaching them to do something right and reward, and teach that way. When someone tried to explain a clicker I thought that was the stupidist thing I ever heard, who goes thru life with a clicker? And besides'my voice is exactly the same (right?)

Well I was WRONG, and I am certainly into this dog training for long enough to know I can always learn more and am willing to do so if it benefits my dogs. I always do my best and think it's right at the time. But I now know though if what I am doing isn't clear to my pup, then I need to try something else. And teaching by correction is so low down in my methods I rarely go there. And the reason is because I know there are SMARTER ways to train and I am willing to find a good trainer to teach me.

Using corrections is easy. Teaching avoidance behaviors is easy. Ruining the lifetime relationship with training is easy too. I no longer look for the fast and easy way to train. I look for the smartest way to work WITH my dog to go thru our lives together. 

And I love and train with both the e-collars AND prong collars with help from trusted and qualified instructors, with a clicker and treat bag also in my bag of training 'tricks'. 

And it really can work, really  

Jen & GloryB JJW 10/13/12 - YouTube


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> ...are you doing anything to work his brain besides having him find things in a park? Teach him rear end awareness, back ups(when in a down too), side passes, 'place', directionals, track him?


OK, that's a new one to me: "Rear End Awareness". I haven't done any of that, I confess. (I'll have to google that...)

Mostly I have done basic obedience with him, and we play.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MarkJoel60 said:


> As far as all of those who say: "Well, I have had dogs with high drive before, and I never needed an e-collar." This is snobbish at best and ignorant at worst. The e-collar doesn't have to be an admission that I failed as a trainer and a line of last resort. It is simply another tool. Is using a "gentle leader" harness a failure on the part of the owner? Or a prong collar?


Just for the sake of any newbies reading through this thread, a high drive puppy can be trained utilizing positive training methods. An e-collar should be used when proofing your dog and not as a tool to save time and effort on the handler's part.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am not a purely positive trainer and have no problem saying so

I don't think I'm a snob nor ignorant when I say I've had/have some pretty high energy dogs that I didn't use an e collar on and they've turned out pretty well if I do say so myself

I train with what works for the specific dog. I don't recall anyone posting you (OP) were a failure at training, I think there have been alot of thought out posts here with opinions (which we are all entitled to).

Because one doesn't like one's opinion is no need to get in a snit .

Just wanted to throw that out there


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I am not a purely positive trainer and have no problem saying so


I bet my daughter wishes I was a purely positive trainer!!!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lilie, I hope you don't mind that I fixed your quote in the post above!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We bring down Chris Weeks* a few times a year for brush up stuff and when I was talking with him about Beau and "routienes" he was big on "muscle memory" - making whatever you do so ingrained they are on autopilot for the important things and it is the only response. I don't know a single detection dog trained in that discipline with anything but motivational training and you have to have proven reliability to stand up in court.

I honestly believe the important thing abuot any method is consistency and repetition. We were offlead in the woods at 10 weeks because I knew his puppy packdrive would hold him close. As I saw the boldness develop to explore I started running from him and hiding. As he continued to get bolder for awhile he was on a long line until I was confident in that recall. You know don't give them a chance to find out how fun it is to fail until there mind is at a place that the idea does not entertain them.

The car thing. I would not walk the dog around moving cars until I fixed the problem. Maybe I would go to a big field and do obedience etc at a distance where the dog (on lead) ignored them and then slowly close the gap--well that is what I would try based on my experineces with a different fear reactive dog (I realize it is prey not fear in this case but....it is desensitizing a trigger)--just an idea. It is consistent as well with how Lou worked on crittering by slowly closing a gap. 

**Chris was trained at Lackland as a bomb dog handler and then went to work for Raleigh PD when he got out of the service, then a New Hampshire PD. He works with a lot of SAR folks as well as training department dogs/handlers.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Lilie, I hope you don't mind that I fixed your quote in the post above!


Oh hec no! Multi tasking isn't my best suit!


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Just for the sake of any newbies reading through this thread, a high drive puppy can be trained utilizing positive training methods. An e-collar should be used when proofing your dog and not as a tool to save time and effort on the handler's part.


Saving time and effort? What an interesting way of characterizing what I have done. 

How about to save the dog's life? I'm thinking that an e-Collar is preferable to a dog chasing after a car. You think you can do that through purely positive training methods?

Good luck.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

leash?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Saving time and effort? What an interesting way of characterizing what I have done.
> 
> How about to save the dog's life? I'm thinking that an e-Collar is preferable to a dog chasing after a car. You think you can do that through purely positive training methods?
> 
> Good luck.


Yes, a leash. I've curbed Grim's desire to chase cars significantly (being ill, I haven't worked with him on this since we moved), and I'm confident I can extinguish the behavior entirely. I've never used an e-collar on him. It's not a danger to his life, because he's always secured by a leash. No luck needed. Just time, dedication, and patience.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

MarkJoel60 said:


> How about to save the dog's life? I'm thinking that an e-Collar is preferable to a dog chasing after a car. You think you can do that through purely positive training methods?
> 
> Good luck.


In 2003 I would have said you had to have the ecollar. In 2012 - I honestly think I could do that with positive only trainig methods but it would be a lot of work. Certainly with a young puppy. With an older dog with an established behavior it would be harder.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Without seeing the intensity at which the dog wanted to chase vehicles...I don't think any of us can say that positive only would have worked. I'll agree that the use of the ecollar more than likely saved the dogs life, but at the same time there seems to be such a need/want for people to have their dog off lead before the age of 6 months (not just referring to OP but many others that have joined the forum). Everyone watches videos of 3 year old Schutzhund dogs and thinks that their dog will be able to do that out of the womb.

I didn't let my dog off lead, other than in areas where I couldn't see a road (much less a car) for at least a mile, or in a fenced in area, for almost 2 years of his life. I live in a city, he's always on a 6 foot leash. I don't even own a retractable leash because I see no reason for my dog to be more than 6 feet away from me. Others don't look at it that way and the easiest and fastest way to teach a recall is by using an ecollar improperly (not saying that's what the OP did).

My dog has some crazy prey drive, and when he sees a bunny he looses his mind. It only took me 3 or 4 bunnies to stop this. And no, there was no ecollar involved, there was just a simple "NO!" and a redirection to a ball/toy that I had on me at the time.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just like with any other thing the first thing you have to do is get the dog paying attention to you, flawlessly, in a low stim environment before moving to higher simulations.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> leash?


This!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Saving time and effort? What an interesting way of characterizing what I have done.
> 
> How about to save the dog's life? I'm thinking that an e-Collar is preferable to a dog chasing after a car. You think you can do that through purely positive training methods?
> 
> Good luck.


Oh...I dunno. I suspect if I knew my young puppy chased cars I'd keep it on a leash and begin training using a method I'd like to call responsibility.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I imagine the dog being on the leash is not the issue. I can see why the OP wants the control-what if he dropped the leash or the dog caught him off guard?

The OP is "sold" on the ecollar for this even though I am convinced you can do this without any form of compulsion because I work oflead cadaver dogs who have to be reliable in dangerous situations and around traffic, wildlife, and loose or chained dogs. With the package for a dog suitable for detection work comes a lot of prey drive. 

I also had a behaviorist fix an over the top crate agitation issue with another dog, where none of the compuslion methods we tried worked but using simple praise and treats timed properly did. That one event is what really got me thiking about this. I spent two years of frustration with this dog. Had resorted to the bark collar when she approached me and said "can I show you something?". 

But, rather than try to kill his approach I would at the very least suggest he have a heart to heart with Lou about how to proceed. I would be willing to put money on it that he would use a variant of his crittering protocol and at a low stim. Not a correction for starting the chase/ignoring a leave it command. I have done this with critters and the dog is clear headed and stops THEMSELVES before starting the chase sequence -- they don't need to be told "leave it" because they are thinking - and you can actually see THEM make the decision not to pursue..it takes you out of the picture which is, in fact, a benefit of the ecollar for certain things..

Still not admitting that the ecollar is "THE" only approach but if you are going to use one, do it properly and with clear guidance from a master with it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> I imagine the dog being on the leash is not the issue. I can see why the OP wants the control-what if he dropped the leash or the dog caught him off guard?


Sounds like a personal problem...sorry I chuckled when I read this. How does a car surprise someone? If you're walking on a road, you should probably expect there might be a car coming every once in a while.

Anyways...I'm in agreement something had to be done about the dog chasing cars. I just dont agree with the method used. Life saving? Yes. Quickest way possible of doing it with no regard for the dog? Absolutely. It worked well, it worked fast, it was definitely due to punishment and not compulsion. The ecollar wasn't used to keep the dog's attention on the handler instead of reacting to the car (like is generally taught with reactive dogs). The ecollar was used to shut the dog down each time it reacted to a car until it finally realized that reacting to the car caused it to get zapped.

This is exactly how anyone in the "general public" that I have spoken to that has used a ecollar has trained their dog with it. It wasn't a correction, it was a punishment for an unwanted behavior (dog not coming when called). And now there is an infomercial on our forum for this type of training because someone that wasn't that experienced (and yet more experienced with dogs than I am) decided they've found the end all be all solution to all of life's training problems.

It is interesting to me that Lou hasn't chimed in on this yet...an ecollar thread that has gone 11 pages without one word from him. Either he's on vacation, busy, or for some reason not voicing his opinion (which I'd love to hear by the way). I do believe he'd go with a variation on the critter thing like jocoyn talked about.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would like to hear his opinion as well and be open minded about it. Since the OP linked to Lou's site, I am assuming he is claiming to use that approach though there are others.

Still not conceding that this is the only way to reach the goal but I don't think that Lou's methods, properly applied, damage the dog. The statement about crying out on continuous and the approach the OP is using is what confuses me.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> leash?


Of course, I have my dog on a leash when we walk him. It's the law where I live, and it would be irresponsible not to... but I don't know what perfect world everyone here lives in, but in my world, it is possible for a dog to get out. 

It doesn't happen often. But if you take ten years with a dog -- especially a high drive and athletic dog -- the probability that he will one day get out of the house is fairly high. Someone leaves a door open, the latch on the gate didn't close right... whatever. It happens. 

I guess based on the reactions of everyone here it has never happened to *them*... whatever. It has happened to me. 

And when it happens, the last thing I want is a call from the neighbor telling me my dog is lying in their yard bleeding and dying because a car hit him. That has never happened to me, btw. The main reason I originally got the e-collar was to ensure it never does.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm confused...if the dog accidentally gets out because someone left the door open, there'll be people around to catch it, right?
If not...how did the door get left open? 
And if the gate is not shut and nobody is home, is the collar on so the dog "thinks" it'll get shocked?
If nobody is home and he gets out, how long before he realizes there is no shock coming and it'll be a free-for-all on the road chasing cars?

BTW, I'm very bad at clicker training, but without the use of a clicker I showed a couple how to easily distract a dog from wanting to kill our cat, using treats and voice alone. You simply reward the dog the moment it looks away from the object of chase. You continue that until the dog no longer cares about the object of chase, because he's focused on you. And no, he doesn't get a treat _every time._ 

If I can do it, the average pet owner can.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I would like to hear his opinion as well and be open minded about it... The statement about crying out on continuous and the approach the OP is using is what confuses me.


I am not sure what approach is confusing...?

Again, I put the collar on him, and over several minutes, I slowly raise the stim -- 1 level at a time -- until I got a reaction from him. The reaction was not crying out or yelping, it was simply looking down at the ground as in: "Hey, what was that?" 

That is the level I use -- For him it is 55 (out of 127).. The dogtra collar I use has three settings: Vibrate, Nick, and Continuous. Other collars have a "boost" level, but mine doesn't. 

A Nick will send a "single rapid pulse of electrical stimulation" that lasts a fraction of a second. I've tried to time it with a stop watch to see exactly how long the pulse is, but my reflexes aren't quick enough. I would guess that it lasts about 1/10th of a second.

The nick is what I use 99.9% of the time. 

If he does not respond to the command to "leave it" as the car approaches, and starts after it, I tell him: "No!" and nick him. Even when we first started, that was usually all it took. But some cars -- I don't know why -- really get to him, and he thinks he has to chase them. When I nick him and tell him no, and repeat it, but he is still snarling, pulling on the leash, and trying to go after the car, the I say "No!" and hit continuous. I never held it for more than a second, and I doubt I even did it for a full second.

Yes, that makes him cry out -- but no more than a severe correction with a prong collar would. (Actually, this dog is a little bit drama queen -- he cries out if he walks into a cabinet door he wasn't expecting to find. And he's very chatty -- almost as much as a Siberian Husky...) I have been involved in Schutzhund clubs before. I have watched corrections administered with a prong collar on a dog who was getting out of hand. Believe me, the e-collar is better. 

Like I said in an earlier post... I would make a video of it in action, but the reality is that he hardly ever gets nicked any more. He hasn't been constant-stimmed since the first day I took him out. And I am not about to manufacture a scenario to stim the dog just to satisfy some board members whom I don't know, and frankly, I don't care about.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I'm confused...if the dog accidentally gets out because someone left the door open, there'll be people around to catch it, right?


Geeze... Maybe. Maybe not. Are we going to argue about hypotheticals now, and whether my friends are capable of running down a German shepherd who got out and is chasing a car? Really?
[/QUOTE]



msvette2u said:


> And if the gate is not shut and nobody is home, is the collar on so the dog "thinks" it'll get shocked?
> If nobody is home and he gets out, how long before he realizes there is no shock coming and it'll be a free-for-all on the road chasing cars?


Honestly, I am not sure if you are just baiting me to get into an online argument, or what... but what is confusing about this?

The point is that I am _*training *him not to chase cars_. By teaching him that he is not supposed to chase cars, he learns not to do it. So, if he does get out, he may roam the neighborhood and ruin someone's flower garden, but he won't be chasing after the first car that comes by -- which in my neighborhood is fairly frequent.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If nobody is home to administer the shock, the dog will still chase cars, I'm willing to bet on it. 
It may take a few minutes for him to realize "hey I'm free, and there's no discomfort on my neck, either!" but he will, if the drive is still there to chase them.

This is what I said way early in this thread - you can use a bark collar on the dog to make it stop barking (a shocking bark collar, well, even spray for that matter). 
But when you take off the collar it takes but moments for a dog to realize it's not there and he can bark freely.

While curbing the barking, training must be taking place to ensure a quiet dog even without the collar.
While you're shocking your dog for chasing, training must be taking place to ensure he doesn't chase without the collar on or in the absence of someone to do the shocking. 

Perhaps this is why Lou's "crittering" training would be a better method than punishing the dog for chasing.
And why another method to breaking him of chasing would be preferable.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I *think* you have taught him the meaning of no and leave it but not to choose not to chase cars...at least not by reading your post.....perhaps over time he will figure out by association that cars are things to be avoided.. You can teach this with an ecollar. And over time you will need to reinforce it, even after weaning the collar if you ever do.

But if the goal is for the dog to not chase cars if you are not there to say "no" I don't think this is where things are headed. 

No more from me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> But if the goal is for the dog to not chase cars if you are not there to say "no" I don't think this is where things are headed.


THIS!
Geepers. I can think things in my mind but when I go to type, can't figure out how to word it


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I have a high drive, athletic dog, that wants nothing more than to go outside with ME. He's never once gotten out of the apartment, if he does stick his head out, or his body comes out while the door is open and we're carrying in groceries, its really simple to call him over and get him back into the house. 

The Schutzhund clubs you went to sound like they train in very archaic methods. The ones I've been to have slowly been moving towards compulsion and treat based training. And guess what, you can really see the difference in the way the dogs work. A simple pop with a prong or even the tightening of a leash is usually all it takes for the dog to figure out it did something wrong (after it knows what is expected of it). I've never once seen anyone correct hard enough with a prong to make a dog yelp...even the most vocal of dogs at my club.

All the methods you have talked about are extremely heavy handed, and you are comparing what you did with your dog to those. You wrote in a previous thread about how you "can't wait to assert yourself" over your 6 month old puppy. It's fine that you have decided that physicality, pain, and punishment are the only way to train a GSD, but most people have gone away from that. Most people have realized that the "old" ways don't work as well as the new ways. You're stuck on the fact that you have the most driven, hard, athletic GSD that has ever been known to man, and that this is the only way of fixing its problems, but most of the people posting on this thread have had just as "bad" of WL dogs and many have trained their dogs in much more difficult venues than you plan on persuing. Not sure why you're stuck on this one way, it worked for YOUR dog, and only worked for ONE dog. The other methods talked about have been proven on many dogs, by different handlers, over and over again. You put it out there that you did something that 95% of people on this forum find a little over the top and inhumane (not something that's easy to do), and are still arguing that what you did isn't that bad.

Also wanted to add...I think most people aren't argueing with you. I've accepted that you will fight for your method and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread. I just don't want someone that has never dealt with a GSD and has purchased a puppy, to come on this forum when it bites them a few times and read this thread and strap an ecollar onto it's neck. Maybe if those people see that the rest of the world uses other methods for this kind of training they'll try those before moving onto your quick fix.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Perhaps it might be a good idea to change the tittle of this thread.

The land shark phase is generally thought to be 8 weeks to about 5 or 6 months, and I don't think anyone wants some new owner to think that a land shark aged 8-week-old puppy should be "treated" with an e-collar.

Maybe call it "Using e collar to discourage car chasing."


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Or "mark their calendars" for the day to run out and get one...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> The Schutzhund clubs you went to sound like they train in very archaic methods. The ones I've been to have slowly been moving towards compulsion and treat based training. And guess what, you can really see the difference in the way the dogs work.* A simple pop with a prong or even the tightening of a* *leash is usually all it takes for the dog to figure out it did something wrong* *(after it knows what is expected of it)*. I've never once seen anyone correct hard enough with a prong to make a dog yelp...even the most vocal of dogs at my club.


Do you feel that the dog also learns to read your body language?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I can honestly say that if I were to put an e-collar on Grim and deliver a shock every time he went after a car, it would only intensify his reaction to them. Grim is a 'vindictive' pup. If something pisses him off, he'll go after it with everything he's got. One of the many reasons I'd pass on the e-collar for him unless it's with a trainer with experience in them for a specific thing... like off lead direction for his IPO or PP training. I don't know how 'hard' your pup is. However, it seems like you're describing him as an unusually hard dog. (A lot of WL dogs are very hard, though) My guess is that without the threat of a shock, the dog would actually ramp up his attack on the cars, which would be even more dangerous. I'd rather have a pup trained to ignore it and focus on me. That way he becomes desensitized to the cars, and I don't have to worry about 'payback' later. JMO


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm going to ask this thread be locked because as Sunflowers mentioned, it went from using the e-collar for a puppy just play biting, to now using it for a reliable 'come' so a dog doesn't get killed by a car.

Completely different uses for the collar and not fitting the subject any longer.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

A lot of threads may end of differing from the title, but even so... this thread has remained civil and on topic generally. I have to strongly disagree that it deserves to be closed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Do you feel that the dog also learns to read your body language?


It does...but down the line. So in this discussion when we're talking about a 6-8 month old pup I wouldn't expect the dog to understand body language yet. At the end of the day we're discussing something that a majority of us would've dealt with over a couple of months, using compulsion and possibly very light correction. The difference is that some people want the dog to learn something today, and not take the time to do it properly over a few weeks or months.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Perhaps it might be a good idea to change the tittle of this thread.


Might not be a bad idea. It seems that most people came into the thread thinking that I was suggesting shocking the landshark phase right out of the puppies, which was not what I meant.

I have been called archaic and old school, but I generally believe in letting puppies grow and discover things throughout the first 6 months. Yes, I do some small corrections, but most of the time, I am simply trying to use distraction as a means of surviving the puppy stage. 

I don't want the puppy to live in a world of No. 

For me, the point where I first begin to _start _serious training is at 6 months. That's when he wore a pinch collar for the first time. That's when I bought the e-collar.

The other dogs I had were actually pretty well behaved during the puppy-phase (I see that now. At the time I thought they were a handful, but I had no idea...) The biggest problem I had with either of my other two GSDs was pulling in the leash when we went for a walk -- something that is not a big deal and is easily corrected once we start working on training. 

This guy is different. He didn't pull on the leash, He spun around, bit feet, tried to herd cars... all sorts of things. That is more of a challenge. And the car chasing thing was a real concern. I can accept working through things, but that was dangerous, and had to be stopped.

As far as the people who seem offended that I would want to "assert my will" on the puppy -- I guess I just don't understand why that bothers you so much...? _Ninja joined *my *pack_. He needs to fit into it -- for his sake as well as the rest of the pack. As the head of the pack, it is my responsibility to make sure he fits in. That is exactly the same as would happen in the wild. The new puppy doesn't come along and make new rules, and everyone else tries to adjust. When a new pup gets out of line, Alpha brings him back into compliance. 

I'm not running a democracy here. He needs to fit in. And he is doing very well at that. The upside is that he is much happier now. He goes for rides, and gets to explore new places. He gets several walks a day. Everyone is more willing to engage him in play because they don't have to worry about it ending with bruises and lacerations. Yeah, sometimes he still plays too rough, but he's starting to understand that when that happens, he needs to dial it back. Over all, he is a lot more calm these days, and sweeter to everyone in general. His aggressive behavior in play has been tempered mostly, and he is not nearly as pushy as he was before. He is more fun to be around.

All of that isn't because of the e-collar, of course. (He doesn't wear it inside at all). What the e-collar did was bring back two very important activities: The walk and the car-ride. Two things I had to discontinue because of his over-aggressive attitude towards cars. Getting those again -- and more of them -- makes him calmer in general. And makes me happier, because I love taking him places. 

I really don't care if this makes me out to be Attila the Hun in the eyes of some people (who have never met me -- or Ninja). I'm trying to do what is best for Ninja -- and my family. The e-collar helped that. Tremendously.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Jag said:


> I can honestly say that if I were to put an e-collar on Grim and deliver a shock every time he went after a car, it would only intensify his reaction to them. Grim is a 'vindictive' pup. If something pisses him off, he'll go after it with everything he's got.


Well, the thing is that he doesn't know the shock comes from you. Unlike a pinch collar, that is at the end of the leash that you are holding, the e-collar is invisible. I wear the controller on a lanyard around my neck, and hold it (in the hand that doesn't have the collar) as we walk. I don't hold it out like its a phaser I am about to fire, I simply say: "No!" and hit the nick -- which lasts for 1/10th of one second. If Ninja looks back at me, he sees me simply walking along behind him. There is no connection in his mind to the nick and me. He hears the "No" from me. But where does the correction come from? 

As far as he knows, the punishment is coming from God, and I am only the prophet trying to warn him to change his ways before it happens.

That might be a stretch, sure... but the point is that a correction with a prong collar is a lot more likely to cause Grimm to get angry with you, because he knows that you did it.

You know, I sort of get the people who believe in only positive training not liking e-collars. It is a form of correction, which they don't believe is ever justified. I may not agree with them, but I understand where they're coming from.

What I can't for the life of me understand is why people who use prong collars think e-collars are evil. I really think its a stigma attached to them, and that is a sad thing. Because they are a great tool.

The correction from an e-collar lasts a brief time (1/10th of a second) and is always the same level. There is not any randomness. I don't care how good you think you are with a leash, there have been times you've popped your dog harder than you meant to (or less than). That is the nature of using a flexible lead and a dog that is moving at an uneven pace.

There is none of that with the e-collar. You have complete control over the exact level of correction. It is always brief, it is very easily to make it immediate. It isn't evil. You can use it in conjunction with prong collar training (which is what I do) and it simply gives you more control over the corrections.

IDK why people are so crazed about it...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The people who get 'crazed' about it are reading posts from people who have no clue how to use one, yet put it on their dog and stim away. 
That's usually the issue when e-collar threads get out of hand.

Or when a certain someone comes on an e-collar thread and over analyzes everyones posts and usually it ends up getting snarky instead of constructive conversation.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think most people who responded do not think ecollars are evil, but were just commenting on your technique and approach in using it, and quite a few have used and have them in their toolboxes. Honestly, when I go back and re-read the first post, it is like you want a confrontation and you are reading it into every response. What you do is your business - just don't want others to think it is "good advice".


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think the main issue here, atleast for me, is using an ecollar on a 6mth old puppy..

I have used prong collars, am not against them, and I'm not against e collars. I agree both are good tools when used properly.

My issue is using one on a 6mth old puppy. I'll come right out and say it, and may not be popular, using one on a 6mth old is in my opinion, the lazy way out of training a puppy. Most 6mth old puppies still have the attention span of a gnat, will listen one day, blow you off the next. Pretty normal. It's 'easy' to put an ecollar on a 6mth old and have them instantly trained. 

I guess for me is what's the challenge?? I am not purely positive, I'm not old school, I use what works, I like a challenge, and I like seeing results that I've acheived with puppies..

Ok done rambling Off to make a living


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

martemchik said:


> The Schutzhund clubs you went to sound like they train in very archaic methods. The ones I've been to have slowly been moving towards compulsion and treat based training. I've never once seen anyone correct hard enough with a prong to make a dog yelp...even the most vocal of dogs at my club.


Did you ever watch someone teach a dog not to be dog aggressive? Especially if that dog had been bitten by another dog in its younger life?

My experience is that a dog that has been bit by another dog is changed forever. They usually because HIGHLY dog aggressive, and I have never seen that behavior curbed without some serious correction used.

In the club I belonged to, part of the trial was to not only have the dog heel off leash, you also had to walk through a group -- which would include other dogs. So, having a dog learn not to be dog aggressive was critical.

It's amazing when I come on here and read about other's experiences with GSDs. It's like we've lived in alternate universes. Because I have _never _seen a Dog Aggressive GSD unlearn that behavior without correction.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok we have all sorts of threads on managing dog aggression (without over the top corrections, BTW) so lets keep this one where it started (ecollar, 6 month old puppy chasing cars).


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Honestly, when I go back and re-read the first post, it is like you want a confrontation and you are reading it into every response.


I didn't want it -- but reading through some of the other e-collar threads, I would be lying if I said I didn't expect it.



jocoyn said:


> What you do is your business - just don't want others to think it is "good advice".


Which means that you believe it is "bad advice", right? That is always the underlying message around here, isn't it? Whether it is directly confrontational or not, there is an accepted way of doing things. And this isn't it. So that makes it wrong...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Every dog has different thresholds....so what may work for yours may not for another and someone reading this thinking the level of 55 for a dog is ok is not good advice, because they may interpret it differently than how it was posted.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Which means that you believe it is "bad advice", right? That is always the underlying message around here, isn't it? Whether it is directly confrontational or not, there is an accepted way of doing things. And this isn't it. So that makes it wrong...


Hate to use the 'word' wrong.................

What I will say is that many of us have learned the hard way what works best for our dogs. And the one who got confused and didn't learn as well as it could have was our dog.

So with the experience and training we've gone thru, we try to steer people in the right direction so they also don't have to learn the hard way but instead can learn the SMART way from our experiences.

When I know better, I do better. I never PURPOSELY messed up my dog or trained in a manner I didn't feel appropriate. But I have learned so much over the past 20 years of training and in NO WAY train my dogs now like I did my first puppy. 

I now know what the end behavior I want from my dogs look like. I have realistic expectations and I can better keep in mind that they ARE dogs so learn differently from humans. So just cause it makes sense to me (as a human) doesn't mean it's as clear to my dog. And just because a training method may seem to work well and fast (like correcting a puppy for playing with me by using an e-collar) though I KNOW absolutely the corrections will stop the biting (win, right?). I also know that it's better to NOT go for the quick fix on many issues like this and instead work on the bonding, relationship building, and smarter ways to train that may take more time and patience but are worth it in the end.

If I didn't mention it before, I LOVE the e-collar! I LOVE the prong collar! I'm not all treats and clicker..... there are absolutes and corrections in my training. But instead of that being the first option and training method to go to.... it's so far down the line it's not even funny. Because I know, really really know, that there are many other smarter methods to train a puppy that also work. 

So if, in the meantime, I need to learn more patience. I need to learn new methods. I need to realize the quick fix isn't always the best fix. Then that's all stuff on my shoulders to learn so I can be a better dog owner and guide my pup through the next 12+ years in a consistant and balanced manner.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Which means that you believe it is "bad advice", right? That is always the underlying message around here, isn't it? Whether it is directly confrontational or not, there is an accepted way of doing things. And this isn't it. So that makes it wrong...


There are about 38,000 members on the forum, including you, who are free to post as long as they follow the rules. The rules are pretty much along the lines of what most folks learn in kindergarten. So I am not sure you can say there is an "accepted way of doing things"


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Did you ever watch someone teach a dog not to be dog aggressive? Especially if that dog had been bitten by another dog in its younger life?
> 
> My experience is that a dog that has been bit by another dog is changed forever. They usually because HIGHLY dog aggressive, and I have never seen that behavior curbed without some serious correction used.


There is dog aggressive and fear aggressive, I would think that a dog that is attacked will be fear aggressive and depending on how its handled it can end there or go on to be dog aggression. I have a dog that was attacked as a pup, he is a happy go lucky dog with no aggression problems. I NEVER corrected him, we moved forward with puppy classes and positive training. He loves all dogs, cats, and people. So it isn't about the dog, its about the owner/handler and how they choose to fix things.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mark, the bottom line is, we don't NOT correct our dogs. When it's appropriate, we do. ALL of us, at some point. 
Yes we've all learned positive is a great way to get results, and without confrontations, but at times, yes, dogs need a correction. 
We use electricity. I've used bark collars, a hot wire on my fence (designed for horses, not dogs, they _do_ get "zapped"), and prongs. Prongs, used correctly, are _not_ cruel. 

However, you're not using your e-collar correctly. Because 1) it's a puppy and 2) you're just not using it as recommended. 
And we're all saying, if you're going to use it, no matter what the tool, _use it correctly._

And since you're dead-set on doing it this way, well, then, we won't change that, but we don't want "newbies" stumbling across this and saying, "OH, good idea!" because in the long run, it simply isn't going to be a solution. 
It's a band aide, at best, and at worst, could quite probably backfire and make your dog worse.

Our goal in training is to teach our dogs things, other than "ouch, that hurts, I'd better not do it again...at least while this thing's on my neck".


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