# My opinion on gaurd/ k-9/attack trainning



## BCOWANWHEELS (Nov 24, 2011)

FOLK,
I,VE HAD GSD dogs for 35 yrs and i have a firm belief in NOT trainning your dog for anything other than family companion dog. if you do train your dog for k-9/attack or guard dog work he will be at that point a working dog and not a pet ! in reality he is what I call MIKE TYSON DOG, cocked and primed ready to do what there trained for. for a family dog or companion dog this level of trainning is completely not needed. the big secret to a good gsd is to really love them, nuzzle there nose with your nose, kiss them on the face and head like there the part of the family which they are ! there will knowbody harm you in there presence as it is natural for them to be protective. now if you keep your dog in a kennel, chained to a dog house etc. you are depriving them and yourselfs probably the best friend this side of heaven you,ll ever have. i train dogs and i,ve attack trainned 1 dog out of the bunch and 32 yrs later i still regret it. its totally not needed. also if your dog bites somebody regardless of the circumstances short of life ot death you will loose your dog and it will be put down. GSD'S ARE meant to love and be loved.
jmo
bob in tn.

p/s
never "hire" dog trainning. there your dogs so you need to train them.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

opcorn:


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

English, please?


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

The wall of text hurt my eyes, can someone translate for me?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

ShenzisMom said:


> The wall of text hurt my eyes, can someone translate for me?


Somebody who joined less than a month ago, has five posts, and that nobody knows from Adam is letting us know he doesn't like protection dog training.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I guess I should get a Lab? 

I took the time to break up the wall of headache. I think he is confused with idiots who think their dogs are 'tuff'. Not responsible people who actually train their dogs right. I guess I should post some reading material for this poor ignorant person..but its nearing 1am and I'm lacking patience. OP, go to your nearest schutzhund club. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. 

Thanks for the summary


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Ohhh. Using my context clues from the replies, I'm going to assume that you think SchH dogs aren't also loved family companions? Well, let me assure you - they are as loved as could be. Only difference is they're very well trained and have an outlet for their drive and energy. 

Regarding that last comment on paying for training - say you get a dog and it turns out to be an aggressive monster. Most people don't know how to deal with that or how to correct the issues. Do you think they should continue on with their aggressive dog until it bites someone and must be put down, or should they call in an expert? 
Dog trainers have their place, and when they know what they're doing, they can be more than beneficial to those who hire them. 
Most people don't hire a trainer and send the dog away to be trained. A dog trainer's job isn't necessarily to train the dog, but to train the owner how to train the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

He's new to the forum and has an opinion like many folks here. It seems to differ from some, but that doesn't mean he ought to be bashed. 
Just sayin'...


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I'd rather listen to a trainer with 35 years experience than rely on my own limited experience.
When you get sick, do you go see a doctor or go with what you think? It's *your* body after all... 

Watch a Sch3 dog with its handler and tell me you still agree with your initial assessment.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

msvette2u said:


> He's new to the forum and has an opinion like many folks here. It seems to differ from some, but that doesn't mean he ought to be bashed.
> Just sayin'...


Not bashing, just saying that, until he gives us a reason to care about his opinion, nobody really does. And using your 5th post to start a thread stating your difference of opinion with 90% of a forum's membership is kind of odd.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Is K-9/guard/attack training the same as Sch3 training.....I thought it was different?


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

It is different but has a lot of similarities. Also, a good schutzhund dog is definitely a good guard dog, and some do get changed over to do K9 work.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Shaina said:


> It is different but has a lot of similarities. Also, a good schutzhund dog is definitely a good guard dog, and some do get changed over to do K9 work.


Yeah....thanks. I thought he was talking about more private kind of training to get your dog to bring down an intruder as he didn't mention Sch but maybe I am just slow on the uptake....:help:


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I've heard schutzhund referred to as "attack dog training" by people who have no idea what it entails, so I tend to just assume that it is being included.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Understanding the Drives of Protection Training

Good read. Illustrates some of the similarities between Sch and police work.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

BCOWANWHEELS:

Thanks for sharing your view on training. Seems like everyone has a little different views on these topics.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Purpose of the OP post?????


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

So basically the OP is saying my choice to become a dog trainer should be ignored because the OP supposedly has so much experience and is perfect in every way? Umm how about not. If i want to train my dogs to guard and protect MY FAMILY, you better believe its happening buster! They are perfectly capable of being companions as well as being well trained in protection. Considering this breed needs a job to do... well gosh, it just makes sense that I give them one.

Besides, dog trainers, help people who have less experience or knowledge in the world of training animals. They're useful. Just saying...


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## k_sep (Jun 21, 2011)

BCOWANWHEELS said:


> FOLK,
> 
> 
> p/s
> never "hire" dog trainning. there your dogs so you need to train them.


That is just ridiculous...seriously?! If everybody tried to train their own dogs, then most dogs would be badly misbehaved. Most people I know thought that it was okay to rub their dogs nose in their poop if it made an accident in the house, think it's okay to smack a dog or yank them around on their leash while shouting "no" repeatedly at them, and don't know anything about training. Ugh, what a silly statement!


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

*cough*TROLL*cough*

He's trying to get a rise out of everyone.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> i train dogs and i,ve attack trainned 1 dog out of the bunch and 32 yrs later i still regret it. its totally not needed. also if your dog bites somebody regardless of the circumstances short of life ot death you will loose your dog and it will be put down.


If you regret having attack trained your dog because afterwards you were worried about an inappropriate bite, then either the dog did not have the proper temperament for the training, and/or the training was all wrong and messed up a good dog and made it unreliable. 

Though I agree with your, 99.999% of the time, the deterence effect of a GSD by your side is all the protection a person needs. 

Also proper capitalization and spaces after a period will make your posts a lot more readable.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

I can't believe that I read all 3 pages of posts...


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## jennyp (Jun 18, 2011)

UUMMM.......Ok, sounds like you have it all figured out then.......


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Bob, I would be interested to know why you would come on the board and make this one of your first posts?

There are a lot of folks here who do schutzhund with their dogs which does not make an "agressive dog primed for the attack" -- but does give them a dog they control under all siutations.

The vast majority here will agree that a personal protection dog is for a very very small proportion of the population and is a working dog.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1>>> PP trained dog can be a pet.

2>>>> trained, knows when to turn it on and off
on command or not.

3>>>> some are protective some aren't.

4>>>> this could apply to all dogs.



BCOWANWHEELS said:


> 1>>>> I,VE HAD GSD dogs for 35 yrs and i have a firm belief in NOT trainning your dog for anything other than family companion dog. if you do train your dog for k-9/attack or guard dog work he will be at that point a working dog and not a pet !
> 
> 2>>>> in reality he is what I call MIKE TYSON DOG, cocked and primed ready to do what there trained for. for a family dog or companion dog this level of trainning is completely not needed. the big secret to a good gsd is to really love them, nuzzle there nose with your nose, kiss them on the face and head like there the part of the family which they are !
> 
> ...


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Wow, thanks, you have opened my eyes!! I will stop all training with my dog from today, specially "attack training" (only that phrase shows a lot of ignorance). No, wait... my dogs have already been gaurd trained... they will be unreliable for the rest of their lives, I'll lock them on a kennel forever, just to be on the safe side.

I'll also shut down and tell my clients to take their dogs and train them themselves without help because there their dogs.


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## BCOWANWHEELS (Nov 24, 2011)

jmo as i stated.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I would be interested in understanding how you reconcile the development of the German Shepherd as a breed and the utilization of Schutzhund as a breed test? The two have gone hand-n-hand since the beginning. Capt. Max employed the dog's protective instincts as a corner stone of the breed...it is what the dog is about.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Someone having an opinion and wanting to share is fine - I think this post just comes off as lecturing, when the terminology and expressions you use shows that you have little experience in the matter. 

If issues arised after you tried to attack train your own dog without having any prior experience and/or help and guidance from an experienced person, I can see how you would want to warn others away from doing the same - that is a recipe for disaster.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm just curious as to what's wrong with a dog created to be a working dog being turned into a working dog???????I'm ready to learn on this one.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

There's a difference between 35 years of experience, and one year of experience repeated 35 times.


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## BCOWANWHEELS (Nov 24, 2011)

my thread is dedicated to (BRUTIS) who was more dog than i was a man, he resisted guard trainning until the trainer touched me. his love was so strong it really taught me how to love a GSD, now my goal is to make all of them smile especially my 9 of them who have never had a collar, been in a kennel ( unless there in heat) or been misstreated in any way. and there extreamly well behaved and extreamly loveing to me.
bob


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)




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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)




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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

OK, the point is the same but the emphasis on the generational difference stings bit....I feel old now! :wild:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think I"m missing something So the 'trainer touched you'? and life as you know it changed?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

W.Oliver said:


> OK, the point is the same but the emphasis on the generational difference stings bit....I feel old now! :wild:


:spittingcoffee:

What difference between movies 36 years do...?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think I"m missing something So the 'trainer touched you'? and life as you know it changed?


If it was consensual, whats the big deal?:wub:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

He didn't say anything about Schutzhund. It was about training Guard and Protection dogs. My guess is personal protection dogs, could be wrong though. 



Konotashi said:


> Ohhh. Using my context clues from the replies, I'm going to assume that you think SchH dogs aren't also loved family companions? Well, let me assure you - they are as loved as could be. Only difference is they're very well trained and have an outlet for their drive and energy.
> 
> Regarding that last comment on paying for training - say you get a dog and it turns out to be an aggressive monster. Most people don't know how to deal with that or how to correct the issues. Do you think they should continue on with their aggressive dog until it bites someone and must be put down, or should they call in an expert?
> Dog trainers have their place, and when they know what they're doing, they can be more than beneficial to those who hire them.
> Most people don't hire a trainer and send the dog away to be trained. A dog trainer's job isn't necessarily to train the dog, but to train the owner how to train the dog.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I absolutely agree with the original poster. If you have no clue what you are doing, then you should not be training your dog in protection, neither as a personal protection or guard dog, nor in one of the protection sports. This is why people who are serious about this sort of training go to experienced trainers, join clubs, and go to seminars, rather than trying to train this sort of behavior at home.

Based on the original post, it is clear to me that the original poster obviously had no clue at all what is required in terms of control and temperament before you attempt to train a dog in protection, nor in how to train protection. If s/he had any kind of clue about that type of selection and training, s/he would know that a dog trained in protection (and even working police dogs) usually do just fine living inside the home with the rest of the family when they're "off duty" and are no more a hazard or liability than an untrained pet dog - probably even less so if they have a proper obedience foundation.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

this is beyond funny.



JakodaCD OA said:


> I think I"m missing something So the 'trainer touched you'? and life as you know it changed?





W.Oliver said:


> If it was consensual, whats the big deal?:wub:


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Now i'm curious to know what the heck a dog wearing a collar has anything to do with whether the dog is happy or not. Other than making it extremely difficult to take the dog anywhere like the vet and other places... what with all those pesky leash laws....


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## MountainGSDs (Jul 25, 2011)

BCOWANWHEELS said:


> my thread is dedicated to (BRUTIS) who was more dog than i was a man, he resisted guard trainning until the trainer touched me. his love was so strong it really taught me how to love a GSD, now my goal is to make all of them smile especially my 9 of them who have never had a collar, been in a kennel ( unless there in heat) or been misstreated in any way. and there extreamly well behaved and extreamly loveing to me.
> bob


I am truly sorry for your misconceptions and ignorance (not a derogatory term) just means lack of knowledge or information.
I was around the breed and training 32 years ago on longer. 40 years ago we looked for aggressive dogs and ended up making more aggressive dog. Now stable nerves confidence and loyalty are king. They can reside inside a house and be a family dog and when the handler puts on his uniform and straps on his gun belt his dog will switch to working mode. Similar to what we do. Methods and philosophy are 180 degrees different then the "old days". 

You need to get out and take a look at what is going on these days and not relive the old days.



*ignorance *(ˈɪɡnərəns) — *n *lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

BCOWANWHEELS said:


> ......and i have a firm belief in NOT trainning your dog for anything other than family companion dog.





AbbyK9 said:


> I absolutely agree with the original poster.


AbbyK9, I always appreciate your posts, and how insightful they are...even though you're a Mal Gal!!!! LOL and I agree with the meat of your post regarding the inexperienced....but the OP did not present that slant...Ole Bob was more black&white as referenced in the quote above.

I believe a GSD of solid nerve and good temperament can do it all...properly trained in a protection sport and be a family companion.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ W Oliver....agreed.....He may have meant personal protection dogs and unskilled person, BUT he came across as training in bitework is not needed or should be done....this is contrindicated by thousands of people doing it and the dogs being family pets also. Now if he doesn't consider sport or working trials; in his opening statement, it makes it a little clearer.JMO


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I also think that what he meant by not hiring someone else to train your dog is not allowing someone else to do the work. Like the kennels that offer "2 week bootcamps." I completely agree with that statement if that is where he was going with that. You should always have the guideance of someone who knows what they're doing, but your dog should take the command from you, not someone else.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Ole Bob was more black&white as referenced in the quote above.





> he came across as training in bitework is not needed or should be done....this is contrindicated by thousands of people doing it and the dogs being family pets also.


I read it the same way Cliffson did.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> Dueling Banjos Deliverance - YouTube


That was awesome. :wub:

As for the topic. I do believe that too many dabbel in personal protection without knowing what they do. Too many want the mean guard dog without knowing what it means to manage one and most of the time they don't really need one and just want to be out there to say "I've got a big mean guard dog."


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Lets call it like it is....I have a big bad protection GSD because it compensates for my genital deficiency.  There, I said it.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I am getting gold chains, a flat brimmed ball cap, and a BYB Pit Bull next to promote my gangsta' image...then I'll have all my bases covered! :wild:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> Lets call it like it is....I have a big bad protection GSD because it compensates for my genital deficiency.  There, I said it.


You mean because you are missing the basketball sized balls in your home? 

Or because your wife's got them instead of you?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I have a pair, but my wife keeps them in a box in her sock drawer! After five kids, she says I can't ever have them back!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

W.Oliver said:


> I am getting gold chains, a flat brimmed ball cap, and a BYB Pit Bull next to promote my gangsta' image...then I'll have all my bases covered! :wild:












You don't need a pit-bull...

(and don't forget this picture was YOUR idea)


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I remember that shot, and I still catch a smile when I see it.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Purpose of the OP post?????


**** stirrer.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Who cares? This thread was bizarre from the first time enter was pushed.


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## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not trying to be mean either, but the spelling and grammar hurt my eyes and brain as well.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Catu said:


> You don't need a pit-bull...
> 
> (and don't forget this picture was YOUR idea)


Yo. :rofl:

(A REALLY nice looking dog!)


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

W.Oliver said:


> If it was consensual, whats the big deal?:wub:


OK so just when I was beginning to think "that's 20 minutes (reading this) that I'll never get back...I saw your post and it made it all worthwhile:laugh:


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