# So frustrated with training facilities



## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I finally found an agility center just a few BLOCKs away from my house. It is literally a 5 minute drive. I was super excited! The place has equipment outside and inside and is fully loaded. They offer tons of classes from beginner OB to advanced agility.
Then... I got in contact with the owner(?) and she was totally rude and snobby.
I simply told her that I wanted the distractions that the training session offered as well as a new area in which to train, but that I wanted to work on engagement with my puppy. In other words, I didn't want to do the sit/down/stand drills with her because I know the puppy would be totally bored with that and I want to get past pet training into more advanced training; engagement is important to me. I politely asked her if there was any flexibility during the training if I wanted to practice other things with her besides the drills. 
She completely turned into a snob and asked "What method are you using?" I said "Well, it's a method I've research a lot based off Michael Ellis' techniques and it is working well for me. I want to train engagement/focus before I teach her anything else." She said "I don't see why you would have to do that to work on focus; after a few weeks in the class the puppies start learning how to focus on the handler anyway. The puppy isn't going to do well if you use two methods." I was never planning on using both methods, just mine. 
This annoyed me because the puppy is already at a point where she will focus on me for a decent amount of time with some distractions. I just wanted to work in an area where there are even more distractions so that we can have the socialization aspect + more engagement training with distractions. The fact that this lady was totally rude is making me not want to shell out $150 for BEGINNER OB (does this sound super high to anyone else??). 

I'm having a hard time finding another dog sports club other than Sarasota Obedience Training Club - Welcome! which sounds totally awesome except it's super far from me.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Maybe see if she'll meet with you for a private "lesson" and show her what you are working on. If she's just unsure because she's seen too many people who don't know what they're doing, she might be "converted" after getting to see you work with your pup.

And if not, you know right then that you don't want to do her obed class.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

What methods does she use? While I wouldn't use two conflicting training methods at the same time, (that would just confuse the dog), as long as she's using motivational reward based methods vs choke chains and corrections and so are you I don't think it would be a big deal to take the class. Mix up the boring drills with engagement - usually there's some down time between exercises, while the instructor is explaining the next exercise and maybe demonstrating it - I quietly mark and treat for focus while keeping an ear on what the trainer is saying, and have never had anyone give me a bad time about it because they can see that I know what I'm doing, and my puppy is under my control. 

If my dog is ahead of where everyone else in class is with their puppies (which was often the case!), I move onto more advanced stuff while the trainer and assistants are helping other people. One time in one of Halo's puppy classes the trainer was going around the room doing a brief test with everyone one at a time, and I was getting close to running out of treats, so instead of clicking and treating for focus or working on stays or something, I started tugging with her, having her out the tug, and then releasing her to play again. We weren't in anyone's way, we weren't disrupting the class, and there wasn't anything in particular that I was supposed to be doing at that moment, so I did my own thing. I actually did my own thing a LOT in Halo's classes because most of the time she was either the best dog in the class or at the very least, one of the best 2 or 3. Rather than let everyone else hold me back, I just kept going, challenging her as much as I could. In a couple of her classes, the trainers were coming up with new challenges for her when they saw she could already do what they were starting to teach everyone else - they would suggest the next step to work on.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

She probably runs her class a certain way, and you going off and doing whatever you want to with your dog might be distracting to everyone else in the class, (unless this is private lessons?) especially if this is beginner obedience. If you don't want to follow her training methods I can see where that might not sit well with her.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> She probably runs her class a certain way, and you going off and doing whatever you want to with your dog might be distracting to everyone else in the class, (unless this is private lessons?) especially if this is beginner obedience. If you don't want to follow her training methods I can see where that might not sit well with her.


Kinda what I was thinkin too. Her facility, Her methods.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Maybe see if she'll meet with you for a private "lesson" and show her what you are working on. If she's just unsure because she's seen too many people who don't know what they're doing, she might be "converted" after getting to see you work with your pup.
> 
> And if not, you know right then that you don't want to do her obed class.


Yes, I think that was the issue here. It sounded like she thought I was dumb for wanting to do my own thing. I'm sure she is used to having a lot of dog owners who just want to know the basics. 
I'm going to give them one last shot and meet with the trainer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Usually when you go to a new place, you have to take a beginner OB class so the trainer(s) know your dog is of good temperament, etc....then you can do the drop in or other classes.
If you don't want to use a trainers instruction, maybe she'll let you "rent" the facility/equipment for a fee...though I bet she'd quote high. Though that won't help with the distractions of other dogs/people while you train.
Is she familiar with Michael Ellis? My AKC obedience trainer wasn't til I sent her links, along with a couple clips of Bart Bellon's obedience.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> What methods does she use?


She does use +R, but it sounds like they do drills in beginner OB. Sit, shove treat in mouth, down shove treat in mouth. 
I like to move more than that and other than 'sit' there is nothing on queue.
I did drills with Denali and it totally sucked the fun out of it for both of us; now she hates OB.
Kinley is responding very well to the new training and it is fun for both of us.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Usually when you go to a new place, you have to take a beginner OB class so the trainer(s) know your dog is of good temperament, etc....then you can do the drop in or other classes.
> If you don't want to use a trainers instruction, maybe she'll let you "rent" the facility/equipment for a fee...though I bet she'd quote high. Though that won't help with the distractions of other dogs/people while you train.
> Is she familiar with Michael Ellis? My AKC obedience trainer wasn't til I sent her links, along with a couple clips of Bart Bellon's obedience.


No, when I told her about him she didn't know what I was talking about. She just reiterated her opinion that she didn't think it was a good idea and that I should go watch a class to see how it works.
I think I may have offended her by asking her to let me do my own thing and I see that now.
I did ask her if I could use the equipment etc. but she still did not like the idea of me doing my own thing :shrug:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with it sounding like 'her place her methods'.

I would go watch the class your interested in and see what goes on. 

When I did a +R puppy class, the trainer was totally 'do it my way or the highway', I DID do my own thing during the down time within the class, but ended up yanking Masi out, because it was a totally non productive class for us.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I think you are expecting too much from a conversation over the phone. I like Michael Ellis's training methods and use them as well, but I also intermix techniques from my own trainer. When I first started in puppy OB, I tried to follow along with the class for the most part and did really well. Moving into novice, as I knew the trainer better, I talked to him more about other techniques and now that we're in his weekly OB club (it's annual, not a class that you take for 8 wks or something of the sort) I use many more techniques such as tug for my malinois vs always rewarding with treats and verbal, etc.

He doesn't mind at all and in fact, encourages it. I wish I had asked sooner about using tug in class. I was worried he would find it disruptive.

I'd go watch a class first, then go from there, before you rule it out. Most places aren't going to be receptive to letting you pay a fee and use their facility for proofing in whatever method you want to use.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Tbarrios333 said:


> I finally found an agility center just a few BLOCKs away from my house. It is literally a 5 minute drive. I was super excited! The place has equipment outside and inside and is fully loaded. They offer tons of classes from beginner OB to advanced agility.
> Then... I got in contact with the owner(?) and she was totally rude and snobby.


I have the same problem! There is a place by me that has everything and would take me 5 minutes to get there. Lots of people recommend the place and I know several people that train there but I've contacted her 3 separate times (months apart) and always get a rude response (when I got one) even after I name drop. So we drive 30-45 minutes for our training with a facility that actually wants us there.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Rerun said:


> I think you are expecting too much from a conversation over the phone. I like Michael Ellis's training methods and use them as well, but I also intermix techniques from my own trainer. When I first started in puppy OB, I tried to follow along with the class for the most part and did really well. Moving into novice, as I knew the trainer better, I talked to him more about other techniques and now that we're in his weekly OB club (it's annual, not a class that you take for 8 wks or something of the sort) I use many more techniques such as tug for my malinois vs always rewarding with treats and verbal, etc.


M.E. does use the tug eventually as well.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> I have the same problem! There is a place by me that has everything and would take me 5 minutes to get there. Lots of people recommend the place and I know several people that train there but I've contacted her 3 separate times (months apart) and always get a rude response (when I got one) even after I name drop. So we drive 30-45 minutes for our training with a facility that actually wants us there.


I don't know whats up with that. With what they charge for a puppy class you would think that they would want the class full. I found another trainer and I know she's a clicker trainer, but yea, she's pretty far.

I think I am going to try again with them. I'll go watch a class and see how they do things. However, it definitely sounded like there was a "in" crowd and other people are not welcome. 
The one in Sarasota sounds fantastic, but it's 80 miles from me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Whiteshepherds said:


> She probably runs her class a certain way, and you going off and doing whatever you want to with your dog might be distracting to everyone else in the class, (unless this is private lessons?) especially if this is beginner obedience. If you don't want to follow her training methods I can see where that might not sit well with her.


That's what I'm guessing too.....

I've signed up and attended tons of different classes with different trainers and always start off with an open mind. Because even though what I'm doing is usually working, I certainly have now learned that I can always broaden out my learning experience and add new 'tools' to my training 'toolbox'.

I try to attend classes that are recommended and with great trainers who have a method that CLEARLY is working so they know what they are talking about. So when I start a new class I listen, learn and try what's suggested.

So it's not about completely stopping what I already know. It's about ADDING to it and broadening my training skills. Agility is different from herding from formal obedience from tracking from........ ALL of the different venues have different skills needed and tips how to train them the best. So when I start off with any of these NEW venues I just go in with an open mind and willingness to LEARN from the instructors and their background and experience.

I know that for many newbies when they start agility they have no idea why they should learn the clicker, or learn ground work (handling away from equipment) or learn some of the seemingly random skills the best trainers ask of us the don't seem to make sense at all. Until 4 or 6 or 8 months later as the dog/handler skills are progressing SUDDENLY the lightbulb goes off because you will easily be able to start sequencing the equipment cause your pup UNDERSTANDS due to all the good foundation work that's been done!

Absolutely a case of 'you don't know what you don't know'. So even though I've been training dogs for almost 20 years.... and know alot. When I start up something new I just act like a sponge and absorb and learn. 

Go and have fun, don't 'fight' the method but try it and go with it. I've seen alot of Ellis's stuff and LOVE it. So I think you'll be amazed how you can take the classes, do what the instructor recommends, and also blend in what you know already.

As an aside.............. I'm always amazed at how much I learn from WATCHING and LISTENING to my instructors work with the other dogs/handlers. So when it's not my turn, or I'm not working with my dog, I continue to learn and get information to help by seeing what's going on with the other handlers/dogs.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

There are hundreds of different ways to train a dog, but most of them have things in common. Sometimes it's just a matter of doing what the instructor wants to see in class, and then modifying it when you're home. Take the parts you like, phase out the ones you don't when the class is over.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Whiteshepherds said:


> There are hundreds of different ways to train a dog, but most of them have things in common. Sometimes it's just a matter of doing what the instructor wants to see in class, and then modifying it when you're home. Take the parts you like, phase out the ones you don't when the class is over.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :wub:


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Hmm maybe you are right. 
I think I am so afraid that I will ruin OB for the puppy (like I did with Denali) that I am being overly controlling. 
I like ME's style and that the focus is on engagement rather than drills while the puppy is young.
I'll give them a shot and watch the class.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Tbarrios333 said:


> M.E. does use the tug eventually as well.


haha, yes, I know  What I meant was, the facility I train at doesn't introduce tugging as a reward in it's usual OB classes, but since I use many of Michael Ellis's techniques, and was already using tug at home, I talked to my instructor who has schutzhund dogs (so I knew he had experience in this area) and he had no problem and was even encouraging for me to use tug in class with my Mal who is a tugging nut. He uses mostly tug and ball rewards with his own dogs, but in the OB classes we are the only ones I've seen using tug....

So even if on the exterior you don't think the methods will be encouraged or even allowed, that might not be the case if you give the instructor a chance.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I've signed up and attended tons of different classes with different trainers and always start off with an open mind. Because even though what I'm doing is usually working, I certainly have now learned that I can always broaden out my learning experience and add new 'tools' to my training 'toolbox'.
> 
> I try to attend classes that are recommended and with great trainers who have a method that CLEARLY is working so they know what they are talking about. So when I start a new class I listen, learn and try what's suggested.
> 
> So it's not about completely stopping what I already know. It's about ADDING to it and broadening my training skills. Agility is different from herding from formal obedience from tracking from........ ALL of the different venues have different skills needed and tips how to train them the best. So when I start off with any of these NEW venues I just go in with an open mind and willingness to LEARN from the instructors and their background and experience.





Rerun said:


> So even if on the exterior you don't think the methods will be encouraged or even allowed, that might not be the case if you give the instructor a chance.


I agree, it's certainly worth going and observing a class. I would personally not sign up for a class that I felt would be a waste of time, but even when my dog already knows most or all of the skills that are to be taught in a particular class, I've not found that to be an issue. I usually learn new stuff when I'm taking a class from a new trainer or at a new place, and at the very least, my dog has the opportunity to work in a new environment, which is always beneficial. Class is only one hour a week, most of the work will be done on your own, between classes, so if I don't need additional practice on the homework items that have been assigned to the class for that week, I just work on the things that we do need to practice instead. And if I want to train in a slightly different way than is being taught in class, I can still do that in all our sessions at home or elsewhere. 

I would also not sign up for a class that used methods that were completely inconsistent with my training philosophy with the intention of just blowing off the trainer and doing things my way. For me, dealbreakers would be a trainer that thinks using food is bribery and only allow praise as the "reward", or that requires that dogs wear training collars in class. That would be a pass. If the trainer was motivational but used only food in training and I thought my dog worked better for toys I wouldn't leave my tug at home, but I would bring food to class, and use it. And I'd also use the tug too. A good trainer is going to be about training the dogs, not about their ego, and as long as you seem to know what you're doing, and your dog is clearly being trained with methods that are working and humane, I don't think it would matter if you're not doing things exactly the same as everyone else every second of class. Like I said, it's never been an issue for me.

Sometimes I use different commands than the class is teaching (in puppy class they were using "off" for "leave it", and I use off for something else, so I continued using leave it), and I had one trainer that tried to get me to change my release word from "okay" to something else, anything else, but I politely declined - I'm fully aware of all the reasons why it's not the best word to use, but we've been using it for 25 years and even if I tried to change it I know Tom would still be saying okay! :hammer: Sometimes the trainer recommends against using no reward markers, but I've been using them for years and will continue doing so, because it's how I like to train. All the of the classes I've taken do not allow corrective collars, which is fine, I can work with that for an hour a week - if I want to use a prong collar I can still do so, I just use something else in class.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Well, I sent her a few links of M.E. videos and she said that their training method is completely different. I am curious to see how they train, so I will watch a class after my finals are over.
She did say that having me do that kind of training would be really distracting, but as you all said, it's only one hour once a week.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I would also not sign up for a class that used methods that were completely inconsistent with my training philosophy with the intention of just blowing off the trainer and doing things my way. For me, dealbreakers would be a trainer that thinks using food is bribery and only allow praise as the "reward", or that requires that dogs wear training collars in class. That would be a pass. If the trainer was motivational but used only food in training and I thought my dog worked better for toys I wouldn't leave my tug at home, but I would bring food to class, and use it. And I'd also use the tug too. A good trainer is going to be about training the dogs, not about their ego, and as long as you seem to know what you're doing, and your dog is clearly being trained with methods that are working and humane, I don't think it would matter if you're not doing things exactly the same as everyone else every second of class. Like I said, it's never been an issue for me.


Thanks CM I will look out for these things and make sure there isn't anything conflicting. I think they do use food as motivation, but they said their style is completely different than M.E.; I am curious!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm curious too - let us know what you find out!


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