# Advice on vaccines and titers anybody?



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So my girl is 11, my boy 2 and a half now. He has had every vaccine there is basically. Actually both of them have. He had one vaccine reaction to lepto when he was young. Got a different brand lepto later in life and was fine. I just had his bordetella redone because he was due.

He is also due for Distemper and Lyme now I think. She is due for a bunch of stuff but I forget what. 

I am researching where I can send for titers...I have heard there are better titers that give actual amounts vs yes or no? My vet says there is no way to know from the titer if they really have immunity or not. A friend of mine recommended Hemopet for titers. 

She has just recently had a 3 year rabies and if she lives long enough I don't plan to ever do that again no matter what. 

I board dogs on my property and my dogs compete in a few dog sports so we go to trials and so they are exposed to who knows what. I would appreciate any advice or info about titering vs vaccinating...how long you have found vaccines to really last...ect ect. I do not want to vaccinate my boy to death, he has had everything so likely a lot of it will last a long time, right?

Do you agree/disagree that hemopet is the best place to titer?

Thanks


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My vet sends mine to Auburn University for distemper and parvo.

Why does your vet say that? the titers measure the antibodies in their system. My vet has never said that and he would if he thought tht! He's a pretty straight shooter.

Mine basically stops vaccinating senior dogs after 7-8 years. Per AAHA, the distemper and parvo are good for several years (you should look up the actual years for each)


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

He said something like...we just don't know enough about the titers to know for sure that a "positive" titer means they are covered. I don't remember exactly. I mean, he isn't super pushy so if I tell him I am titering he will just say ok.

I'm guessing she probably never needs any more vaccines for the rest of her life. I did just get her a 3 year rabies...if she lives long enough for this one to run out I won't do it again no matter what.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I never do rabies on my seniors unless I start seeing critters like bats.

Auburn has a decent price for titers. I can look later to see what I was charged last time. For some reason, I'm thinking Colorado State might do them as well?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I titer for distemper and parvo, and just get a positive or negative. I cannot for the life of me remember where they send it off to, though. I titer every year because that is what my vet feels comfortable with. I would probably feel ok titering every three years, but I’m fine checking every year, too. When my cancer dog was still with me, I stopped titering her because I wasn’t going to vaccinate her no matter what the titer read. I did give her one rabies shot after she was diagnosed, but that’s because we couldn’t get an exemption in my state at the time. At 11, I personally wouldn’t be giving vaccines, but you and I are also in very different situations. I don’t give lepto, Lyme or bordetella to my dogs, but as far as I know, those are not long lasting vaccines and need to be given once a year, if not more frequently.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Auburn's titers have numbers so you can see how high, or low, the immunity is. Seger's 1 yr titer showed ZERO immunity to one of them. I think distemper. Like he had never been vaccinated at all. It was shocking!


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Auburn's titers have numbers so you can see how high, or low, the immunity is. Seger's 1 yr titer showed ZERO immunity to one of them. I think distemper. Like he had never been vaccinated at all. It was shocking!


Have you titered him since this? If so, did he come back as having immunity?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GypsyGhost said:


> Have you titered him since this? If so, did he come back as having immunity?


Yes. Vaccinated with a combo and rechecked. I can't remember how long I waited. May have been at the next yearly check up. His titers were very high. We think something happened to the vaccines, that were given to me by my breeder to administer. Most likely when I was transporting or storing them Another lesson other than titer....only use vaccines from your vet where you know they have been kept at the proper temperature.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I also titer for parvo and distemper and per law he gets the 3yr Rabies vaccine. My boy was infected with lymes disease early on so when the vaccine came out even though my vet recommended it to me, I declined since he already had the antibodies. Vaccinating him for something he already had didn't make sense to me. My breeder had warned me not to give the lepto until he was older as some of her pups that were given it at an early age had adverse reactions. I did some research and consideration of his normal environment exposures chose not to vaccinate.

Thecowboysgirl, my old girl (rip) had her last rabies at 11 or 12 yrs old and like you, I was not going to give it again. She passed before she was due at just under 15yrs old. In all honesty, when we got her I really was a jqp who didn't know anything about vaccines beyond pups need some shots that the vet gives plus a 1 yr booster. After that, she was never vaccinated for anything including rabies. Due to ignorance we fed her the worst kibble plus table scraps. She was a hienz 57 mix, had an iron gut and was the healthiest out of the 4 dogs we have owned including my boy. So it's just my theory, but seems like her core puppy vaccines (back then I think it was only parvo, distemper, rabies) basically gave her enough protection that she ever needed or she was incredibly lucky. The only reason she got the rabies vax late in life was because I got my boy and felt the need to license her since I had to license him. Couldn't license her without rabies vaccine proof. 

Actually our first dog was the exact same story but without the late in life second rabies vax and he was free roaming as were all the dogs in the neighborhood at the time. Very healthy until cancer got him (at 9 yrs old) and knowing what I know now I highly suspect it was due to the same crap food. Something to think about concerning the lymes vaccine, I live in high risk lymes area. A high percentage of dogs test positive for lymes but are symptom free suggesting that their immune system takes care of it. Tons of studies being done on lymes disease.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Max is due for titers. Lymes is a also a very big problem here it is one vaccine I may due. I understand if caught early and treated there are no issues with Lymes disease down the road. Spring is so bad here with ticks it really is an issue. The vaccine can cause joint issues as much or if not more then lymes disease so it is a always puzzling decsion. Luna is one so I get her next round of vaccines and then titer. Separating them. Our chihuahua is 9 years old I hold off on all vaccines. When our dogs turned a certain age always layed off the vaccines because I had no issues it was what I usually did. 

I had chicken pox as a kid. I remember when I was pregnant the doctor took blood work to check my immunity which came back I was not immune to the chicken pox. Was the test faulty I’m not really sure. The immune system sure can be complex. My immune system is off so I do not know if that was a sign then or not.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jenny720 said:


> Lymes disease down the road. Spring is so bad here with ticks it really is an issue. The vaccine can cause joint issues as much or if not more then lymes disease so it is a always puzzling decsion.


Ask for the Nobivac Lyme's vaccine. It doesn't seem to have the side affects the old Fort Dodge seems to. And it treats for hte initial infection plus the mutation once it enters the body.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Lymes disease down the road. Spring is so bad here with ticks it really is an issue. The vaccine can cause joint issues as much or if not more then lymes disease so it is a always puzzling decsion.
> ...


Oh this is good thank you!!! Very helpful!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I think the issue your vet is referring to is that the science on titering is still imperfect--the definitive conclusion that the dog is "protected" because of high titer numbers would require "challenge" testing of titered dogs. That would mean exposing a dog (or lots of dogs...) with a high titer to rabies, or distemper, or whatever, to see if it contracts the disease. There are obvious ethical reasons why that's a problematic sort of thing to try to confirm! Without that, there are lots of "generally" and "usually" statements attached to conclusions about titers--"strong evidence" but not absolute certainty.

The studies that have been done are super-interesting (with some surprising findings at both ends of high/low titer numbers because of false positives/negatives produced by the tests' error rate -- all tests have an error rate, so this should be part of your thinking on this sort of testing). This article is extremely helpful in working through the science -- scroll down to the comments as there's great info there too:
Antibody Titer Testing as a Guide for Vaccination in Dogs and Cats | The SkeptVet


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> Max is due for titers. Lymes is a also a very big problem here it is one vaccine I may due. I understand if caught early and treated there are no issues with Lymes disease down the road. Spring is so bad here with ticks it really is an issue. The vaccine can cause joint issues as much or if not more then lymes disease so it is a always puzzling decsion. Luna is one so I get her next round of vaccines and then titer. Separating them. Our chihuahua is 9 years old I hold off on all vaccines. When our dogs turned a certain age always layed off the vaccines because I had no issues it was what I usually did.
> 
> I had chicken pox as a kid. I remember when I was pregnant the doctor took blood work to check my immunity which came back I was not immune to the chicken pox. Was the test faulty I’m not really sure. The immune system sure can be complex. My immune system is off so I do not know if that was a sign then or not.


My girl had Lyme when she was young. Maybe a year and a half. She was treated successfully and has never had any issues related to it. She is 11 now. All of my dogs always seem to rest positive for anaplasmosis no matter what I do with tick prevention. I asked for my boy to be treated for it again this summer even though we can't really know if it was a new infection or his same on from last year. She has tested positive for anaplasmosis for like 10 years consecutively but she does not actually have it. Last year she finally tested negative for the first time since she was young. They tell me the snap test picks it up whether they have had it before or have it now...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Magwart said:


> I think the issue your vet is referring to is that the science on titering is still imperfect--the definitive conclusion that the dog is "protected" because of high titer numbers would require "challenge" testing of titered dogs. That would mean exposing a dog (or lots of dogs...) with a high titer to rabies, or distemper, or whatever, to see if it contracts the disease. There are obvious ethical reasons why that's a problematic sort of thing to try to confirm! Without that, there are lots of "generally" and "usually" statements attached to conclusions about titers--"strong evidence" but not absolute certainty.
> 
> The studies that have been done are super-interesting (with some surprising findings at both ends of high/low titer numbers because of false positives/negatives produced by the tests' error rate -- all tests have an error rate, so this should be part of your thinking on this sort of testing). This article is extremely helpful in working through the science -- scroll down to the comments as there's great info there too:
> Antibody Titer Testing as a Guide for Vaccination in Dogs and Cats | The SkeptVet


yes I believe this is what he was saying. I am trying to find some middle ground between vaccinate for everything every year and vaccines are evil.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes the same reason why we are late I don’t even like to give even 1 vaccine. It’s hard when they are young as they do need some kind of protection but knowing the harm vaccines can do it makes it very difficult.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> yes I believe this is what he was saying. I am trying to find some middle ground between vaccinate for everything every year and vaccines are evil.


Your middle ground is the AAHA guidelines. Look them up. You do not need to vaccinate yearly for parvo/distemper. They have done the science and have proven this.


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