# So I just went to a purely positive class....



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Finn hasn't been to any formal training classes only puppy daycare a few times when we were in lockdown and not allowed out of our houses. 

Finn has an excitment issue that's unique to my own dog (I've discussed this in a different thread). We are pretty much on track and making solid progress with that. 

Apart from that 8 month old Finn is doing excellent. He's great , on or off leash, really good recall, really calm with dogs and people on or off leash. Calm and confident in every carefully planned challenge slowly throw his way. 

He's like the perfect puppy. He's focused , listens , I really feel that he's on the right track to becoming a really good adult dog. 

In the beginning it wasn't doing much "training" just shaping habits , building a bond, relationship, building toy drive . Slowly introduced a few essential things, a nice recall, a solid sit , loose leash walking e.t.c. 

It's been really paying off. I think what I've been doing is working on relationship and opening a clear path communication. He's so easy to train now and things are just falling into place (it almost seems too easy) . 

I'm still careful not to expect much and flood him with stuff to learn. I much prefer slow and steady. 

I'm same with people and dogs. I'm very careful how he interacts with them . The vast majority of the time he's expected to ignore dogs/people . He does a great job at this and is unusually focused on me , it's as if other dogs/people are if little value to him. 

If he is to interact with people dogs the rules are No jumping, no being over excited and he must always listen to me. 

He's really good. He sometimes had us silly puppy moments . If he's offleash I will recall him on if I see excitement building or he's on leash I will pop my slip lead and give him.a quick correction and put him on a sit or dog (any craziness and games are over ). 


So this brings me to the class... I'm a few months late to the party. I wanted to build him up slowly and not throw him into a pact of crazy young dogs. So I put off going until tonight.... 

The dogs that are there have been going to doggy daycare for 5 months and 2 months of formal training. 

So I got there. I was immediately told I was not allowed to use the slip lead I had walked Finn to the class in. The do not believe in any adverse training methods of any kind. 

No big deal as I thought they might say that , I came prepared with my 6 foot normal leash. It's no big deal, what Finn walks with as he's well behaved regardless. I just personally prefer the slip lead myself as I feel I can communicate with Finn more delicately with it. 

We stood in a circle. Finn quitetly sat at heel, I looked at the groups dogs acting like nut cases . Barking , lunging, growling, yanking, over excitement, they were all yanking their helpless owners. 

So the first exercise was to all walk together. Mabye about 300 yards and walk back again . 

Apparently no corrections were allowed . 

It the dog wanted to sniff you must let it sniff until it's done and gets bored , when your dog finally pays attention to you give the dig a treat . 

If your dog pulls greet another dog, same thing allow it, wait for it to pay attention to you and treat the dog . 

Same rules for jumping on people . Allow them to jump on people , treat them when they stop and pay attention to you . 


Then a trainer who knew Finn from the very short time he was their as a small part puppy, noticed us (Probably about 5 trainer's managing about 10 people ). 

Finn was sitting well at heel. The trainer decided to do everything in her power to break Finn's sit and get him excited and jumping on her. I was impressed how long Finn held out, but it finally got too much for him. 

I found it extremely strange that trainer's were allowing dogs to jump up on them and a few were even actively encouraging it. 

I don't get the purpose of this ? 

No offense to the other dogs owners but their dogs were acting like nut cases. Pulling their owners around to greet other dogs, engaging in stupid play and tangling up leashes. All while the trainer's repeated the words, let the leash he loose, let them sniff and interact. 

I'm pretty proud how Finn behaved. He was putting these dogs to shame . The trainer's kept commenting it's amazing how well behaved he was and they can't be it's his first class . 

Out of curiosity I decided to get into the training ethos that was going on around me . So I let and even encouraged him to randomly go over interact with other dogs (this is not something I would normally ever do). 

It went alright i guess. He went over to sniff other dogs, The dog would initiate crazy play and Finn would oblige. The trainer telling me to allow it to happen. 

I felt uncomfortable as play was getting inappropriate and commented to the trainer "I'm not going to allow the anymore as the leashes are going to get tangled , mabye wrapped around one of the dogs necks , and I don't want to see a decapitated dog!" . 

I uttered the work "come " Finn's play stopped immediately and he came trotting straight back to me , to the other dog owners suprise and the trainer's delight. 

Finn was now starting to pull lunge and act like a hooligan. So I pretty much stopped following the trainer's advice at this point. No sniffing, no jumping , no playing with dogs well on leash, I even did a couple of sneaky corrections all was well again . 

I wanted to get away from the chaos so I efficiently made my way to the front of the pack and walked along side the trainer up front . The trainer up front was decent, we just walked and talked about dogs and geese . 

When we got to our destination a second phase of training started. I was actually impressed with this and got into it. 

We are all in a big circle and this phase was given by the head trainer . 

We played a game to teach your dog to focus on eye contact to get a reward (Finn was an expert instantly). 

We did some luring. I just used it to reinforce the offleash heel position I've already stated to teach Finn. 

We did sit command , the stressed the importance of hand singles. The hand signal she was teaching happened to be the exact same signal. 

She also talked about the emergency stop (something im playing on teaching, but which I'm holding off right now). 


I really enjoyed the second phase, although I wasn't really learning anything new. It was nice to watched and critiqued. They even pointed out few little things that I could improve , which I completely agree with. I also loved having the challenge of working Finn in a very distracting environment (around the overly excited dogs/owners ). The second half was great the first hand not so much. 

I also don't agree with letting your dog drag you around and do whatever it wants. Can anyone she's some light on what they were trying to achieve by this ? Is there any method to use the madness??? 


Personally I like a more balanced approach, positive training is the biggest part but adverse reinforcement is an important part as well. 


My main point and reason by making this thread is do you think it will be beneficial training with these people? 

What I'm thinking is if I can actually keep Finn's behaviour impeccable the whole session . It will be good practice at Finn working in extemly challenging environments and mabye I will learn something along the way . 

What do you guys think? 


It's the only local Training play I have local anything else is a long drive .


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

It sounds like one of the gimmicky almost scam type purely positive training classes. There’s a reason there’s a lot of dislike against purely positive and that’s because you get trainers like that, who don’t actually train and are encouraging misbehaving dogs.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Kazel said:


> It sounds like one of the gimmicky almost scam type purely positive training classes. There’s a reason there’s a lot of dislike against purely positive and that’s because you get trainers like that, who don’t actually train and are encouraging misbehaving dogs.



All the young dogs there seem to have developed problems . There were only two dogs there that were not acting like nut jobs , my dog and the head trainer's own dog. 

I certainly don't agree with their ethos. It's a shame as it's the only thing around that's in a reasonable distance. 

I'm desperate to get into some type of training that's a little more than just trying my dog myself. I think I want to push towards some sort of sport/activity.

I'm tempted to stick with it just for a challenge. I'll keep training my way and just use it as an opportunity to work Finn in that type of setting. 

I think the head trainer is okay and a lot of things made sence . It will be alright for teaching "tricks" if nothing else . 

I'm not sure if this is a stupid idea. I don't want to fall into it if it's detrimental to my dog. The behaviour of the other dogs is what worries me.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I've been to probably hundreds of group classes done by the "pure positive" crowd, and I've never seen anything like what you describe.

I too was accosted coming in the door to a positive only competition class demanding I take the prong collar off my dog. It was actually a leather collar with a chain martingale, it's what we show in. I said it isn't a prong and they obviously didn't believe me. I had to flip the collar inside out on the dog to make them believe me. It was a pretty big turnoff. Tried the class after leaving another where people where hitting g their dogs in class. 

This was when my young lab was intact and in puberty and wanted to mark doggy smelling things. I told the instructor if he tries to mark I'm gonna pop him so can you live with that or do you want me to leave. I was given permission to give him a leash pop if he tried to mark. He never did, but I'm not just gonna stand idly by while my dog pees indoors.

Long story short I really can't find a group I like around here...it's either one extreme or the other but even the extreme positive ones didn't allow dogs to drag their owners around and greet each other wildly nilly. That sounds like an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Loki.777 said:


> All the young dogs there seem to have developed problems . There were only two dogs there that were not acting like nut jobs , my dog and the head trainer's own dog.
> 
> I certainly don't agree with their ethos. It's a shame as it's the only thing around that's in a reasonable distance.
> 
> ...


Have you looked for an AKC club? Or Google Kennel Club and see if you get anything. Sometimes you have to kind of dig to find the AKC obedience people...I know in my area there are classes going on that are not advertised anywhere, it's all word of mouth.

You'd probably be fine in a novice obedience prep class and the AKC people won't condone the sort of nonsense you're talking about.


----------



## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Proverbs 13:24 _“Those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children. Those who love their children care enough to discipline them.”_ 

Equally applicable to dogs as it is to children. 

I'll leave it at that because I'm liable to get side tracked into divisive societal commentary expressing my full thoughts on purely positive. 

The distraction element of a class though is something I really need to work with my dog on & has me considering signing up for one of those classes too.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've been to probably hundreds of group classes done by the "pure positive" crowd, and I've never seen anything like what you describe.
> 
> I too was accosted coming in the door to a positive only competition class demanding I take the prong collar off my dog. It was actually a leather collar with a chain martingale, it's what we show in. I said it isn't a prong and they obviously didn't believe me. I had to flip the collar inside out on the dog to make them believe me. It was a pretty big turnoff. Tried the class after leaving another where people where hitting g their dogs in class.
> 
> ...


At the start the guy was explaining why let the dog sniff and interact with other dogs / people. 


He explained it like this... 

"if you wanted to watch your favourite TV program you wouldn't appreciate it if someone stopped you or turned it off halfway through (no corrections) " 

"Allow them to do what comes natural and pay them (treats) the second they decided to pay attention to you ". 

I think what they are trying to achieve is they are trying to convince the dog that paying attention to them is more rewarding than doing natural doggy nonsense. 

In reality all I saw was dogs doing whatever they wanted and helpless owners.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Have you looked for an AKC club? Or Google Kennel Club and see if you get anything. Sometimes you have to kind of dig to find the AKC obedience people...I know in my area there are classes going on that are not advertised anywhere, it's all word of mouth.
> 
> You'd probably be fine in a novice obedience prep class and the AKC people won't condone the sort of nonsense you're talking about.


I'll have to look up what AKC means . 

The closest club (still a fair distance ) is an IPO club . This might be a bit too serious for me . 

I would love to get into obedience. When your dog is all fancy pants .


**** Just looked it up. American Kennel club, I'm in the UK.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Tennessee said:


> Proverbs 13:24 _“Those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children. Those who love their children care enough to discipline them.”_
> 
> Equally applicable to dogs as it is to children.
> 
> ...


Haha it's a pretty challenging environment.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've been to probably hundreds of group classes done by the "pure positive" crowd, and I've never seen anything like what you describe.
> 
> I too was accosted coming in the door to a positive only competition class demanding I take the prong collar off my dog. It was actually a leather collar with a chain martingale, it's what we show in. I said it isn't a prong and they obviously didn't believe me. I had to flip the collar inside out on the dog to make them believe me. It was a pretty big turnoff. Tried the class after leaving another where people where hitting g their dogs in class.
> 
> ...


I think the theory of letting dogs greet whatever / whenever is they will become bored, it will become same same . They are also reinforcing the dog the second dog pays attention to the owner. 

So I guess they are trying to get the other dogs their system and reinforcing the dog paying attention to the owner.

I've heard them bang on about this before regarding their doggy daycare. Flooding the dog with interaction with other dogs . Make it so normal its no longer exciting for the dog . 

It's very likely it would / could work but I think a lot could do wrong and has big potential to backfire.


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Loki.777 said:


> I'll have to look up what AKC means .
> 
> The closest club (still a fair distance ) is an IPO club . This might be a bit too serious for me .
> 
> ...


AKC= American Kennel Club equivilent to the UKC
I don't think Tennessee realized you are in the UK. 

The class you described sounds a lot like our big box pet store 1st beginner puppy classes here in the US. Although those classes are usually geared for very young pups (10-16 weeks). They like to promote the pups getting their puppy goofiness out of their system before the class formally starts which would be more in line with the second have of the class you attended. Although they don't typically promote or encourage pups or dogs to jump up on people or play rough that I have ever seen.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Purely positive training is fault ridden and not at all consistent with operant learning principles.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would call it quits and continue on your own path since that seems to be working well. Any one can call themselves a trainer.


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Your dog seems to be leaps ahead of anything that class can produce. Dump the class and move on. 

Anyone who says there is only one way to train a dog is dangerous. My area is full of these "trainers" ripping people off. One such trainer told me it would take 2 years to get my dog heeling/walking nicely. BS...slap a prong on and in one session he was walking nicely. My dog is one of the best behaved dogs around. Off leash in my yard, dogs walking by barking, lunging, he just sits there looks at me, looks at them. Same with kids, runners, bikes, etc. Today I had him in a down for about 20 min while I was talking to the guy next door. He does it because he knows there is a reward (ball) at the end or he gets the "stick" if he breaks the down.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Everything you described was bizarre to me. Imagine people doing that with their kids.
Oh wait, I've seen people doing that with their kids, they turn out to be uncontrollable brats


----------



## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

You could consider an extended drive to a reputable trainer. Since your dog sounds like it's on the right path maybe you could go every few weeks if you do not have the time. Being in touch with a good training club may pay divident in the long run.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I love all positive training stories. Just let your dog jump on the little old lady until he stops and then reward him.    Great plan! The best story I heard was one my previous trainer told. About a dog jumping on the table to get food and would be rewarded when they got off the table.....think about that one.    

Find a balanced trainer that will teach you to set boundaries and to TEACH your dog what you want. Teach your dog to work thru stress. Pressure is a stress. Prong collar is a stress. They have to know how to handle stress in real life and they can't do that if you never let them. Catering to them does not do that. Stresses can be added in small amounts. Collars can be paired with food to teach them to work thru something they don't like. Training should be 95% positive. It should not be 100% positive and a trip to the kill shelter with an out of control dog at 15 months (and that IS what happens). You are already on the right track for a well trained, happy, dog. Keep following your instincts.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I love all positive training stories. Just let your dog jump on the little old lady until he stops and then reward him.    Great plan! The best story I heard was one my previous trainer told. About a dog jumping on the table to get food and would be rewarded when they got off the table.....think about that one.
> 
> Find a balanced trainer that will teach you to set boundaries and to TEACH your dog what you want. Teach your dog to work thru stress. Pressure is a stress. Prong collar is a stress. They have to know how to handle stress in real life and they can't do that if you never let them. Catering to them does not do that. Stresses can be added in small amounts. Collars can be paired with food to teach them to work thru something they don't like. Training should be 95% positive. It should not be 100% positive and a trip to the kill shelter with an out of control dog at 15 months (and that IS what happens). You are already on the right track for a well trained, happy, dog. Keep following your instincts.


I think it depends on the skill of the trainer. If you put young puppy in the hands of someone extemly skilled and knowledgeable. I think they would be able to produce a great dog by purely positive. 

Personally I think adverse reinforcement is there mainly as a tool to problem solve . So realistically purely positive could/would work, if you had the right dog and you did everything perfectly. 

The probability of a ln average dog owners achieving this with an average dog is pretty damb low. In my opinion. 


I personally believe I need a balanced approach. I always try to teach behaviour purely positive, when my dog knows what I expect and dosen't carry out the expected behaviour , this is when I add corrections/adverse stimuli. 

For example my dog has learned to not lunge at other dogs while on leash. If I see his excitement is about to get the better of him. I will give him a quick leash pop, a reminder of this is what we don't do! 

I suppose it's probably due to my failings as a trainer, I need to use these corrections . If I were skilled enough and had good enough communication, my dog should he able to effectively learn and never display behaviour that needed a correction. Mabye ....

I suppose this is my mindset regarding training. Perhaps unrealistic, but I want to become more skilled at communication and shaping behaviours hopefully to the point I have less and less of a reason to use corrections. 

I'm not saying I won't . I totally believe in adverse reinforcement when appropriate. I would just like it, if I could effectively teach my dog so well the dog always displays the appropriate behaviour. 

It's probably an unrealistic dream. I can only hope . It's not even like I see adverse reinforcement as a bad thing. I see it as nessesary and an indication I could have done a better job teaching and shaping. 

I agree with their ethos of pushing towards purely positive be as for reality and expectations . A big "No" from me. 


From what I've seen the purely positive trainer's, they do not have the skill to train average people to achieve this. It seems they are in the business of creating broken dogs. 

All it takes is to realise the trainers failings 
at teaching the dog and see which is making the dog unstable. If one approach is not working you add another level , a different approach (corrections). 

From what I saw was all those dogs needed was leash pressure, corrections, and most of all be taught to respect the leash. I think the longer a dog is able to act like a nutcase the deeper the problem will become and the harder it will be to fix.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My one and only issue with the purely positive crowd is their refusal to ever consider other methods. 
All dogs are different, they all have different motivators. And all situations are different. 
If my dog likes chasing Cars I'm not going to wait for it to decide it wants a reward for not doing it.
The best trainers are the ones who can change from dog to dog. I can pound a nail with a wrench but a hammer probably works better.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree. My dogs rarely have a correction. I teach them. It's not rocket science. But I don't believe in "purely positive". A correction can be something as simple as withholding the reward. Listen to what Dave has to say. (skip the first few minutes. It's Ravi saying "hello can you hear me now?")




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=973565343116586


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I'd move on. 

Yes, it's nice to proof in crazy environments, but if (_when_) he makes a bad choice, you need to be able to correct him. Otherwise all of your careful work can unravel. 

And that is not a criticism of Finn. All of my dogs have gone through phases of experimenting with poor choices. Some more than others (ha!). If you think the trainers have a good eye for detail and spotting, ask if they're willing to do one-on-one private lessons. Better to get a half hour of excellent training once a month than an hour every week of circus party.


----------



## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

It sounds to me that you know more about training dogs than the cookie trainers you went to. It is always easier to prevent unwanted behaviors than it is to stop them. The idea that they want your dog to do all of these undesirable things only so you can reward them when they do something else is ridiculous.
If any trainer told me that I couldn't use a slip lead, I would have put the slip lead on and walked out.
Why anyone would ever want to let the dog decide when the "sniff" is over on a walk is beyond me.

If I am unsure about something in training I as myself, "what would Bart/Ivan/Stonnie/Tyler/Larry /Michael do?"


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

You will also find positive-only trained dogs who are remarkably well-trained, doing agility and other feats the average pet owner could only dream of. There is an agility club around here where you aren't even allowed to say "No" (I'm not kidding), but their dogs can do amazing feats. 

Be careful of making such strong judgments from a first impression. We tend to really like the ones that agree with our pre-existing beliefs. Authoritarian "hardasses" love dominance theory and yank-n-crank. _Beat your kid, beat your dog, it was good enough for grandpa wasn't it?_

That being said, it would take a far better or more committed trainer than me to control Jupiter with positive-only training. The prong collar, that is illegal in much of Europe, and a treat bag allow me to take him on daily walks with very little friction. It takes a pretty ferocious yank to even get his attention.

Whereas I've seen sweet little labs who shut down for the whole session if you bark "No" at them. 

A lot depends on the dog... although probably more depends on the owner!


----------



## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

Jorski said:


> If I am unsure about something in training I as myself, "what would Bart/Ivan/Stonnie/Tyler/Larry /Michael do?"


For my own information, who are Bart and Michael?


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

chuckd said:


> For my own information, who are Bart and Michael?


Bart bellon and Michael Ellis.


----------



## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

Thanks- Bart Bellon is new to me and for some reason when I see the name "Michael Ellis", I picture Ed Frawly's mug, so the name never sticks...


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> That being said, it would take a far better or more committed trainer than me to control Jupiter with positive-only training. The prong collar, that is illegal in much of Europe, and a treat bag allow me to take him on daily walks with very little friction. It takes a pretty ferocious yank to even get his attention.
> 
> Whereas I've seen sweet little labs who shut down for the whole session if you bark "No" at them.


SO true! My second German shepherd was one of those ones who needed a smack upside the head with a 2x4 to even get her attention!!

Of course...I'm exaggerating...but OOOH, did she test the limits!! My previous GSD was a SNAP to train compared to her!

I eventually got her to the point where she would walk at heel off leash, and a gentle Tashaaa! or an 'uh- uhh' was all it took to get her back to my side if she tried to stray!.


----------



## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

@chuckd 
Yes Bart Bellon and Michael Ellis.... Bart is a machine and one of the very best out there. He was a champion in belgian ring.
Here is a video of him working his dog Thor.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> true! My second German shepherd was one of those ones who needed a smack upside the head with a 2x4 to even get her attention!!


I used to refer to Bud as my 2x4 dog! Lol. Of course it's a joke but that dog was a block head in more ways then one.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There are tons of degrees of training styles between purely positive and using the four quadrants of operant learning other than yank and crank. To me, there is something neurotic about a training approach that doesn’t allow any verbal or physical corrections or that tells a handler how he has to train his dog.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Any method can be misapplied. Evaluating where you are and what you think of the situation is, unfortunately, particularly important for your relationship with your dog. My thoughts are (and I didn't get through but half the replies) that the trainer was trying to distract Flynn, seeing what it would take - a proofing if you will -- Not so much (OK I"m being generous here) to ruin things for the OP but to see how far along Flynn was and how that was going to work in this setting. (OK OK I"m cutting a lot of slack here. I'm not noted for that so that probably took a week's worth of it)

It sounds to me from the original post that the Finn & family were doing mostly if not purely positive on their own.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You don't know what happens at home when the positive only dogs/trainer leave the class (behind-the-scenes training techniques)


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Our positive class was nothing at all like OP’s....Went in, there were five other dogs sitting on their mats spaced 10 feet apart. Dogs and owners practiced in different areas of the room. Dogs were not allowed to play or greet, but were trained to ignore each other. By the last class, all six dogs could Sit near each other and walk looseleash around cones passing each other closely. There were a lot of demos and explanation ( my dog was famous for falling asleep in dead dog position during these! )

The class did not practically solve all of our issues, but was useful for learning how to motivate and teach your dog. 

( I loved that when Rumo saw all the other furry students sitting on their mats, he went and sat on his! So cute that dogs learn that way.)


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> I used to refer to Bud as my 2x4 dog! Lol. Of course it's a joke but that dog was a block head in more ways then one.


Jupiter is like that--his head feels like a solid block of bone. Occasionally when he's excited and lets his feet do his thinking, he'll smash into something, making a huge knocking sound, and doesn't even seem to notice.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There are tons of degrees of training styles between purely positive and using the four quadrants of operant learning other than yank and crank. To me, there is something neurotic about a training approach that doesn’t allow any verbal or physical corrections or that tells a handler how he has to train his dog.


It is an overreaction, but honestly I can see the motivation. The majority of pet owners substitute force for teaching. They mistake lack of understanding for defiance. A significant chunk of them use force to essentially beat the dog into a state of learned helplessness. Or if the dog has spirit, there's a never-ending low-level war of leash-yanking and choking whenever there's a bit of friction.

I see it on a daily basis on walks. I saw it at obedience yesterday.

"Do no harm" is not an insane way to operate if someone has no clue how to train.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It is always unfair to the dog to punish him for a behavior he does not understand. I am a big advocate of a very positive reinforcement based foundation with use of self discovery where the dog simply doesn't get a reinforcer if he doesn't display the correct behavior and nothing happens if he doesn't. And I believe there needs to be a long duration building that foundation and different behaviors will require longer foundation training than others and different behaviors will be taught later than others. Usually, when a dog has this type of foundation and has good temperament and drives, there is not a great need for punishment, except to refine behaviors such as in sport training. I agree that trainers whose knowledge is limited often use punishment when it is not warranted. There is also negative reinforcement and negative punishment which generally do not involve a lot of physical aversion directed toward the dog.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

GSDchoice said:


> Our positive class was nothing at all like OP’s....Went in, there were five other dogs sitting on their mats spaced 10 feet apart. Dogs and owners practiced in different areas of the room. Dogs were not allowed to play or greet, but were trained to ignore each other. By the last class, all six dogs could Sit near each other and walk looseleash around cones passing each other closely. There were a lot of demos and explanation ( my dog was famous for falling asleep in dead dog position during these! )
> 
> The class did not practically solve all of our issues, but was useful for learning how to motivate and teach your dog.
> 
> ( I loved that when Rumo saw all the other furry students sitting on their mats, he went and sat on his! So cute that dogs learn that way.)



I would have been very happy if the class was like that. I'm all for the positive class. 

What I didn't like is I felt like I was pressured into letting Finn greet every dog they came upto him, sniff whatever he liked and let him jump of trainers.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I would have walked out. Part of training is to teach your dog to ignore other dogs and not to jump on people. Why the heck are they ENCOURAGING this??


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> It is always unfair to the dog to punish him for a behavior he does not understand. I am a big advocate of a very positive reinforcement based foundation with use of self discovery where the dog simply doesn't get a reinforcer if he doesn't display the correct behavior and nothing happens if he doesn't. And I believe there needs to be a long duration building that foundation and different behaviors will require longer foundation training than others and different behaviors will be taught later than others. Usually, when a dog has this type of foundation and has good temperament and drives, there is not a great need for punishment, except to refine behaviors such as in sport training. I agree that trainers whose knowledge is limited often use punishment when it is not warranted. There is also negative reinforcement and negative punishment which generally do not involve a lot of physical aversion directed toward the dog.



I agree with you. 

He's already learned not to jump on people and not to greet other dogs on leash unless he's calm and given permission. He's only 8 months and he can only take so much tempting/pressure until he gives in and excitement takes over. In normal day to day life he's pretty much got what's expected of him down. 


What I found that was really annoying and unfair for Finn is he was being purposely being set up for failure by the trainer's the whole time . 

It wasn't even about proofing or testing him . For example a few times Finn was in a sit or walking to heel. 

The helpers/trainer's were making kissy noises and calling him . Finn wasn't reacting and being good , I swear saw absolute disappointment in the trainer's faces when they failed to get a reaction from Finn. They then upper their game , started to touch him , done everything in their power to get him excited. 

Once they were able to put Finn over the threshold and he couldn't contain his excitement. They lavished praise and effection onto Finn whilst he was jumping up and acting obnoxious. 

The kept repeating the world's "it's okay, let him do it ". 



I didn't find the other dogs as annoying. The owners were too busy trying to control their crazy dogs and didn't pay us much attention as a result. I was able to calmly weave between the chaos. 

A few times a dog managed to pull their owner to Finn . Finn would be calm and polity until another dog would jump on his back and intiate a play wrestle. Obviously this is the point my 8 month Finn would break and decide to oblige. 

Wrestling on the lead was a breaking point for me. I was definitely not going to allow wrestling on leash , regardless if trainer's wanted to see it or not. 

I called Finn off the dog , with single "come" (I impressed myself how effortlessly I came ), walked to the very front and just walked beside, the only sane trainer that was there . 


To be honest him and the head trainer that joined us later were the only two I had faith in .


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> I would have walked out. Part of training is to teach your dog to ignore other dogs and not to jump on people. Why the heck are they ENCOURAGING this??



I have no idea. It definitely wasn't for proofing. A few times when Finn was being good he was purposely given too much to handle to make him excited. 

The question , "Why the heck are they ENCOURAGING this??" Is partly why I made this thread .

I was wondering if I am missing something?


For what purpose would you allow your 
young dog to jump on people , intact with other dogs while on leash and to stop an sniff everything they pleased ? 

I can't see them randomly allowing this, there must be a purpose.


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

That IPO club in your area should have a head trainer you can reach out to. I would see if you can go do just obedience with them.


----------



## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

People who are purely positive generally midunderstand the four quadrants of operant conditioning.
For example, they seem to confuse the term "positive". That doesn't mean only good things rewarded. Positive means an added response by the trainer. There is positive reward and positive punishment. Then there is negative; the withdrawal of something. Negative reward and negative punishment.
It's easy to get confused but the point is that purely positive has morphed into cookies for behaviours.
The reality is even withholding treats when you don't get the desired behaviour is infact punishment.
Finally, as in most things in life it is really a matter of degree.
I would consider myself a balanced trainer, but it isn't anywhere near 50/50....much more like 90% positive, maybe higher. It also doesn't mean rough treatment of the pup.
I use training collars, but do not employ "yank and crank". The collar is a communication tool. It is far more effective to give a pre-emptive leash pop to prevent leash pulling than to struggle with a hard pulling dog. It gives you a chance to teach the dog to be aware of boundaries and expectations.
Ironically, the worst dogs I see out in the real world are almost always walked on harnesses and are pulling and lunging wildly. This is another byproduct of the "purely positive" world. Along with terms like "furbaby".
A friend who has an unwalkable golden retriever recoiled when I suggested they lose the harness and try teaching the dog on a martingale or a slip lead. This is their first dog and they lectured me about hurting the dog's trachea. I guess it's possible if you were insane with it, just as you could with flat collar.
Anyhow, 50 years of dog ownership not a single trachea injury.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Jorski said:


> People who are purely positive generally midunderstand the four quadrants of operant conditioning.
> For example, they seem to confuse the term "positive". That doesn't mean only good things rewarded. Positive means an added response by the trainer. There is positive reward and positive punishment. Then there is negative; the withdrawal of something. Negative reward and negative punishment.
> It's easy to get confused but the point is that purely positive has morphed into cookies for behaviours.
> The reality is even withholding treats when you don't get the desired behaviour is infact punishment.
> ...


A collie that's around Finn's age I knew was in the class the other night. 

Back about 5 months ago I met him when I was out with Finn . The collie was slightly nervous around Dogs. Nothing major and something they could work through. 

Well... my heart went out to this poor dog the other night . The while night was terrifying for him, he got so worked up he was reacting to everything. 

I really felt bad for him , it was practically subjecting that collie puppy to an hour of ****. Way way to much for a sensitive pup to handle. 

I cringed to see it. He got more and more reactive the more overexcited dogs were allowed to get all up into his face. 

I thought is was quite abusive to put that puppy in this environment. I don't know how they even allowed him to attend. 


My point is a training method doesn't need adverse training to be harmful to a dog . You can be purely positive and still do your dog very wrong.


----------



## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> My one and only issue with the purely positive crowd is their refusal to ever consider other methods.
> All dogs are different, they all have different motivators. And all situations are different.
> If my dog likes chasing Cars I'm not going to wait for it to decide it wants a reward for not doing it.
> The best trainers are the ones who can change from dog to dog. I can pound a nail with a wrench but a hammer probably works better.


You're being very diplomatic in the way you put that SM.

They don't just refuse to ever consider other methods, they imply if not outright state that the rest of us are probable sociopaths engaged in torture with medievalesque instruments to force compliance via terror. 

The fact that the entire basis of their training theorum could be summarized as: treat them how you would want to be treated and you'll build obedience through mutual trust and respect. 

As @Loki.777 quoted in this thread from this trainer 
He explained it like this... 

"if you wanted to watch your favourite TV program you wouldn't appreciate it if someone stopped you or turned it off halfway through (no corrections) " 

I am lost for words in how to convey just how hysterically asinine it is to legitimately think an adult human with a job and a mortgage should be afforded the same courtesies and respect as a 6 month old animal with the potential in adulthood of developing the intelligence of a 5 year old. 

I do know the words delusional, anthropomorphize, immature, and irresponsible would be involved.

Not that I'm even hard on my main training dog, when he's not in drive he's my little sensitive boy and corrections hurt his feelings something fierce. But I'm just preaching to the choir here with you, I can't remember a post of yours I've disagreed with.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK bottom line to all of this --- my job is to stand up for my dog. I am still not really good at that - better but not where I'd like to be. My last screw up in this regard was just six or seven years ago. (the one I acknowledge, the one that stands out enough for me to remember, the one I kicked myself for at the time, the one that would have meant challenging someone I highly respected.) For me, it's just hard to figure out how and when to do it effectively. Old enough to be several years into retirement, you'd hope I had this one figured out.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You don't add those type of distractions to an eight month old pup, especially with the training he has had. That shows how ill informed they are.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I see a lot of people mis-using the word punishment for correction. Done correctly, it's the opposite of punishment. Punishment is poor communication done for months on end and expecting a pup to learn.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Punishment is operationally defined within the principles of operant learning. The term correction is subjective, undefined and not a construct of a scientifically valid theory of learning. Operant learning includes positive and negative punishment which are operationally defined.
Punishment in this context is very clear communication, has nothing to do with time variables, and can very effectively enhance learning.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Punishment is operationally defined within the principles of operant learning. The term correction is subjective, undefined and not a construct of a scientifically valid theory of learning. Operant learning includes positive and negative punishment which are operationally defined.
> Punishment in this context is very clear communication, has nothing to do with time variables, and can very effectively enhance learning.


As far as I'm aware learning is based on .... 

Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment , and negative punishment.

I think a correction are usually a positive punishment and I guess in some cases negative reinforcement.

And I think purely positive only use positive reinforcement and negative punishment...?

Correct me if I'm wrong, lol.


----------



## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

In theory, I can see the logic of what they are trying to teach. I can imagine it working if one could be consistent, especially starting with the youngest puppies. Putting together adolescent dogs with naive owners and mediocre trainers(I couldn't think of a nice word, I don't mean to disparage, there is always a hierarchy of talent/experience, and many pet classes will be at the lower end which is fine) doesn't sound great.
It would be too much mayhem for me. My dog does not like being jumped on or physically confronted by dogs and neither do I (except by my own dog and maybe yours when permission is granted--and dogs can be experts at granting or denying permission). 
My guess is the class is inappropriate for some; for you, just see how things go. If no harm is forseeable, there is likely something to learn. Depending on where you're at, practicing under distraction has value. 
I wouldn't stay in this class myself, due to the dogs getting in each others faces and physical contact with people--what gets said if a dog is unhappy with anothers behaviour? What about a rough people jumper? Scratch, bruise, knocking someone off balance?


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

islanddog said:


> In theory, I can see the logic of what they are trying to teach. I can imagine it working if one could be consistent, especially starting with the youngest puppies. Putting together adolescent dogs with naive owners and mediocre trainers(I couldn't think of a nice word, I don't mean to disparage, there is always a hierarchy of talent/experience, and many pet classes will be at the lower end which is fine) doesn't sound great.
> It would be too much mayhem for me. My dog does not like being jumped on or physically confronted by dogs and neither do I (except by my own dog and maybe yours when permission is granted--and dogs can be experts at granting or denying permission).
> My guess is the class is inappropriate for some; for you, just see how things go. If no harm is forseeable, there is likely something to learn. Depending on where you're at, practicing under distraction has value.
> I wouldn't stay in this class myself, due to the dogs getting in each others faces and physical contact with people--what gets said if a dog is unhappy with anothers behaviour? What about a rough people jumper? Scratch, bruise, knocking someone off balance?


I went back once more before calling it quits. The second time was a little better but I still didn't agree with the class. 

I decided to check out an IPO club which we have sinced joined . The club was an instant fit for me. I could find myself agreeing with everything they were doing and saying . The club felt so right, unlike the class.


----------



## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Loki.777 said:


> I went back once more before calling it quits. The second time was a little better but I still didn't agree with the class.
> 
> I decided to check out an IPO club which we have sinced joined . The club was an instant fit for me. I could find myself agreeing with everything they were doing and saying . The club felt so right, unlike the class.


I've alway been tempted with IPO/schutzhund but never quite jumped. Sounds absolutely awesome--conflict is bad for dogs--standing around in a class feeling grumpy about being there is not good either. I'm wishing your former classmates success. I'm pretty sure you are already there by my reckoning--mutual dog / person joy.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Loki.777 said:


> As far as I'm aware learning is based on ....
> 
> Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment , and negative punishment.
> 
> ...


What is a correction? Is it a stern "no?" Is it saying "bad dog?" Is it a weak correction on a prong collar? Is it grabbing the dog by the scruff of the neck aggressively? My point is that a stimulus that is a reinforcer or punisher is only a reinforcer or punisher if the stimulus increases/strengthens or decreases/weakens the behavior respectively. Like everything else with dogs, traits, drives, etc. are on a continuum. Some dogs are very handler hard, some are very handler soft and there is everything in between. To a very handler hard dog "no' would be meaningless and to a very handler soft dog the dog might engage in submissive peeing. In layman's terms, a correction is generally thought of a leash correction or ecollar correction, but in negative punishment the punishing stimulus could be putting the dog up in his crate or taking him off the field and putting him up if he is overly distracted or poorly engaged. I don't consider those options as corrections.
To add, an ecollar can provide positive punishment or negative reinforcement. If you dog starts running into the road and you give him a high stim he will very likely stop the behavior immediately. If you are working on focused heeling and your dog darts his eyes and you low stim him for a few seconds until he is making consistent eye contact, it is negative reinforcement. a desirable behavior is strengthened. There is some grey overlap with negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Positive punishment is generally thought of having the pitfalls of the organism experiencing undesirable emotional effects, other stumuli associated with the punishing stimulus tend to become conditioned punishers, it tends to create avoidance or escape or conflict,positive punishment does not establish any new behavior, it doesn't teach the dog what to do only what not to do, and it can become "addictive" to the user because it results in quick suppression of undesirable behavior.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I stupidly thought that all positive would be a dream for a very soft dog. I was wrong. 
Turns out hard or soft, weak or strong, most dogs thrive on balance.


----------



## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

There really is no such thing as purely positive, though it sounds good. Even the most "positive" strategy will withhold reward when the requested behaviour is not presented. Withholding reward would be negative punishment.

If you really want to dive into the quadrants, the following is copied from a letter Bart Ballon sent to clicker manufacturer, that they wanted to sell along side their Martin System e-collars....after they were refused:

_For your information: good positive reinforcement with existential food (where you add something in the mouth of the dog) takes away a hunger pang: the unpleasant feeling in the stomach. Stopping unpleasant feeling is the definition of negative reinforcement. Therefore, effective positive training is negative reinforcement training._

Sincerely,
Michael and Bart Bellon


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What is a correction? Is it a stern "no?" Is it saying "bad dog?" Is it a weak correction on a prong collar? Is it grabbing the dog by the scruff of the neck aggressively? My point is that a stimulus that is a reinforcer or punisher is only a reinforcer or punisher if the stimulus increases/strengthens or decreases/weakens the behavior respectively. Like everything else with dogs, traits, drives, etc. are on a continuum. Some dogs are very handler hard, some are very handler soft and there is everything in between. To a very handler hard dog "no' would be meaningless and to a very handler soft dog the dog might engage in submissive peeing. In layman's terms, a correction is generally thought of a leash correction or ecollar correction, but in negative punishment the punishing stimulus could be putting the dog up in his crate or taking him off the field and putting him up if he is overly distracted or poorly engaged. I don't consider those options as corrections.
> To add, an ecollar can provide positive punishment or negative reinforcement. If you dog starts running into the road and you give him a high stim he will very likely stop the behavior immediately. If you are working on focused heeling and your dog darts his eyes and you low stim him for a few seconds until he is making consistent eye contact, it is negative reinforcement. a desirable behavior is strengthened. There is some grey overlap with negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Positive punishment is generally thought of having the pitfalls of the organism experiencing undesirable emotional effects, other stumuli associated with the punishing stimulus tend to become conditioned punishers, it tends to create avoidance or escape or conflict,positive punishment does not establish any new behavior, it doesn't teach the dog what to do only what not to do, and it can become "addictive" to the user because it results in quick suppression of undesirable behavior.


I didn't want to allow my dog to jump on people or allow him lunge towards other dogs (which he usually doesn't do ).

But he's a puppy so sometimes does try this stuff now and then. I usually give a little leash pop and a "no" if he's thinking about it.

Works for us and Finn is really well behaved, calm and well mannered around other dogs.

The methods they were using made me feel like they were creating unruly and excited dogs. There may be method to there madness ?


But the way I saw it, Finn didn't need to be in a class, we were just doing it for fun. I felt that we were already on the right track and we just needed to keep doing what we were doing. So I wasn't going to join a random class I didn't believe in.


The thing that appealed to me about the IPO club is what they said regarding their training methods ,

"it's your dog! You decide how you want to train him and use what methods you feel comfortable with. We will not tell you how to train your dog , we are simply here to support your training ".

We've been going a few weeks now and funnilyy enough I've not had to give a single "no" or leash pop at the club. 

I will strive to keep it that way but it's good to know I'm in a non judgemental environment that will support me regarding the way I want to train.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

With your example of Ballon, he severely deprived dogs of food. But severely depriving dogs of food is not negative reinforcement because particular behaviors are only reinforced when the stimulus of food is presented, making it positive reinforcement. He is simply building food drive in an extreme way.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What is a correction? Is it a stern "no?" Is it saying "bad dog?" Is it a weak correction on a prong collar? Is it grabbing the dog by the scruff of the neck aggressively? My point is that a stimulus that is a reinforcer or punisher is only a reinforcer or punisher if the stimulus increases/strengthens or decreases/weakens the behavior respectively. Like everything else with dogs, traits, drives, etc. are on a continuum. Some dogs are very handler hard, some are very handler soft and there is everything in between. To a very handler hard dog "no' would be meaningless and to a very handler soft dog the dog might engage in submissive peeing. In layman's terms, a correction is generally thought of a leash correction or ecollar correction, but in negative punishment the punishing stimulus could be putting the dog up in his crate or taking him off the field and putting him up if he is overly distracted or poorly engaged. I don't consider those options as corrections.
> To add, an ecollar can provide positive punishment or negative reinforcement. If you dog starts running into the road and you give him a high stim he will very likely stop the behavior immediately. If you are working on focused heeling and your dog darts his eyes and you low stim him for a few seconds until he is making consistent eye contact, it is negative reinforcement. a desirable behavior is strengthened. There is some grey overlap with negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Positive punishment is generally thought of having the pitfalls of the organism experiencing undesirable emotional effects, other stumuli associated with the punishing stimulus tend to become conditioned punishers, it tends to create avoidance or escape or conflict,positive punishment does not establish any new behavior, it doesn't teach the dog what to do only what not to do, and it can become "addictive" to the user because it results in quick suppression of undesirable behavior.


I don’t know that I agree with your examples. Positive is something added to the environment. Negative is something removed from the environment. Positive reinforcement would be giving the dog a treat for performing correctly. Negative reinforcement would be putting the dog up if he is not focusing with the decoy on the field. Positive punishment would be popping the prong collar when a dog looks away. Negative punishment would be when you stop stimming the dog for beginning to return to you on a recall.


----------



## Loki.777 (Aug 25, 2020)

If the dog didn't show the desired behaviour so you didn't give it the reward/food it expected , wouldn't they be negative punishment?


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Putting the dog up for poor focus is removing the stimulus of the decoy which decreases the behavior of poor focus. You could argue that removing the stim when a dog comes is negative reinforcement or that it is negative punishment because it stops the behavior of not coming. That is why ZI said there is overlap and grey areas when it comes to negative punishment and negative reinforcement. It becomes a semantic issue and the results are what counts.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Again, it becomes semantics. You withhold positive reinforcement if the correct behavior is not offered. Timing and rate of reinforcement are also major factors. If you get to bogged down in the definitions and don’t know how, where and when to reinforcement, that will have a more detrimental effect than what you call it.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

One thing I’ve heard here recently was people mention struggling to fade rewards. In my opinion, that issue doesn’t come up with proper training. Clicker or not, problems with fading the reward in most cases comes down to bribery( showing the reward before the command.) There are few instances where I think fading the reward is difficult. An example would be the send out. In a training scenario, I still like to reward. Maybe not every individual command, but frequently.


----------

