# Recall/Distraction Help Needed



## JeffR (Jul 27, 2017)

Hi, our pup just turned six months and I’m really struggling with recall and obedience under distraction overall. In a non distraction environment he solidly can sit, lay down, stay, come (here), speak (all the normal stuff), but as soon as he sees something or gets in a mood, I’m totally ignored. I had him in the unfenced backyard today playing off lead as I was confident that he would stay with me since we’ve been playing fetch off lead quite a bit. Today he took off and wouldn’t come back even with my precious “Here” command that I’ve working on for several weeks with great success after spoiling “Come” with negativity early on in training (my mistake out of frustration). I remained calm throughout and eventually walked up to him and brought him home. Anyways, pretty discouraged that it seems back to square one with this incident. Am I expecting too much at this age. This is my second shepherd and off lead was joy with the first though I can’t recall (pun intended) how long it took to get there. Advice for how to improve recall and obedience overall in distracted situations would be greatly appreciated. I spends LOTS of time working with him so I don’t mind putting in the time just not sure I’m missing something or expectations too high at this age.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

JeffR said:


> Hi, our pup just turned six months and I’m really struggling with recall and obedience under distraction overall. In a non distraction environment he solidly can sit, lay down, stay, come (here), speak (all the normal stuff), but as soon as he sees something or gets in a mood, I’m totally ignored. I had him in the unfenced backyard today playing off lead as I was confident that he would stay with me since we’ve been playing fetch off lead quite a bit. Today he took off and wouldn’t come back even with my precious “Here” command that I’ve working on for several weeks with great success after spoiling “Come” with negativity early on in training (my mistake out of frustration). I remained calm throughout and eventually walked up to him and brought him home. Anyways, pretty discouraged that it seems back to square one with this incident. Am I expecting too much at this age. This is my second shepherd and off lead was joy with the first though I can’t recall (pun intended) how long it took to get there. Advice for how to improve recall and obedience overall in distracted situations would be greatly appreciated. I spends LOTS of time working with him so I don’t mind putting in the time just not sure I’m missing something or expectations too high at this age.


Dude relax. Don't get discourage just yet. He's 6 months old. There's going to be highs and lows in training. Distractions should be layered in slowly and once you find a point where he fails go back a notch and work some more. I got discouraged around the 6 month mark and came down with an iron first. The dog obeyed but he was stressed and not having fun. So I went a different route.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What gooseman said^^^^^.He's very young still and there's so many wonderful smells and things to investigate!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sure you will hear "be more exciting than everything else". That is loosely translated into "if you don't look like a certifiable maniac while keeping your dog's attention, you are doing something wrong"

First, don't worry about the perception of people around you. If you have to jump up and down, play chase, make weird noises to keep the attention and engage your puppy then just do it.

Second, dogs do not generalize. Sit at home does not mean Sit in the park. You have you take a step back in training when in new places with higher distractions. Start at step 1 in the Sit training process. It will come faster as they learn that Sit means Sit means Sit in all different places. It will come faster as you behave like a clown and your puppy learns engagement.

Third, enjoy your puppy. If you are not having fun, the dog is not having fun. Energy in is what energy you will get out.


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## JeffR (Jul 27, 2017)

Thanks for the help folks. Much appreciated


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

First, everything that @Jax08 said! Good solid advice. My pup did exactly the same thing at that age, she'd look right at me and decide no, not now! It's frustrating when they're so darn good at home. I solved that by working at home and showing her that come, or here, is not optional. My puppy is now almost a year old, and her recall remains impeccable...unless there are rabbits, rabbits change everything LOL! For that issue, I'm leaning toward an e-collar.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

My pup was the same way actually only until about a month or two ago (he is 10 months now). I feel like it is a maturity thing for one and practice. Just today he saw a rabbit in the yard and was off and chasing but I was able to call him right off it! Keep working hard with the pup, practice with a long line around distractions that way if he decides he doesn't want to come you can reel him in and show him it wasn't an option. We did a lot of work around the things that distracted him most, birds and dog parks. Happy to say now my neighbors toy poodle is finally safe!


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

My pup is 10 months and I don't have a solid recall under distraction. I do have a pretty good recall. It really depends on the distraction. Some smells slow him down, other dogs, and running cats. He will blow me off for dogs bigtime. My pup is excitable and very friendly and he thinks the rest of the world should be too. I never give the command if i can not enforce it we use a long line a lot. One thing I learned in this site is the 2 ball recall. I play fetch with 2 toys and say Come as the pup is running to me. If i step back he speeds up. This has conditioned an amazing response took a a couple months. Without thinking he comes lightening fast to me. The only down side is he has not associated that response with stay with me LOL. So he runs to me looks me in the eyes then boom if he is into something else he runs right back to it. Now I am trying to figure out how to teach him to stay with me after the recall. One step at a time. Give it more time. They are so big and smart it's easy to set your expectations to high. Thats just my experience with 1 pup.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> My pup is 10 months and I don't have a solid recall under distraction. I do have a pretty good recall. It really depends on the distraction. Some smells slow him down, other dogs, and running cats. He will blow me off for dogs bigtime. My pup is excitable and very friendly and he thinks the rest of the world should be too. I never give the command if i can not enforce it we use a long line a lot. One thing I learned in this site is the 2 ball recall. I play fetch with 2 toys and say Come as the pup is running to me. If i step back he speeds up. This has conditioned an amazing response took a a couple months. Without thinking he comes lightening fast to me. The only down side is he has not associated that response with stay with me LOL. So he runs to me looks me in the eyes then boom if he is into something else he runs right back to it. Now I am trying to figure out how to teach him to stay with me after the recall. One step at a time. Give it more time. They are so big and smart it's easy to set your expectations to high. Thats just my experience with 1 pup.


This about sums up what we do with ours too! I never say come unless we have a huge reward and throw a party! I never use the word unless I absolutely have to. We use leave it or let's go for minor distractions. The idea is that if he's in danger (running into traffic, etc.) he won't think twice about coming because the reward is so grand. What helped keep our guy close to us after the recall was introducing a tug (we use his ball on a rope). He sticks around to play now!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

At six months I had a pretty reliable recall until he saw a squirrel then he was like screw that I'll be there in a few minutes. I decided I didn't want to chance my dog recalling or not recalling depending on the distraction. So I done some work with an e-collar and now recall is recall regardless of distraction. I would get with a trainer that is experienced in electric and work that.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Head Underwater: Simple Tips to Achieving a Really Reliable Recall | The Collared Scholar


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> At six months I had a pretty reliable recall until he saw a squirrel then he was like screw that I'll be there in a few minutes. I decided I didn't want to chance my dog recalling or not recalling depending on the distraction. So I done some work with an e-collar and now recall is recall regardless of distraction. I would get with a trainer that is experienced in electric and work that.


Do you recall how long you spent on e collar work/training and does your dog still where it off leash and how old?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > At six months I had a pretty reliable recall until he saw a squirrel then he was like screw that I'll be there in a few minutes. I decided I didn't want to chance my dog recalling or not recalling depending on the distraction. So I done some work with an e-collar and now recall is recall regardless of distraction. I would get with a trainer that is experienced in electric and work that.
> ...


My thoughts went this way too a few months ago. I considered the e collar but I'm glad now I was convinced not to. You can have a solid recall without an e collar, what did they do ages before the e collar wasn't invented? I've seen first hand dogs blow through the most intense stimuli and ignore recalls still (high drive and focus they seemed to not even feel the stimuli at that point). My point is that nothing will work 100% however many have great results with the e collar on here. And many can also have great results without, perhaps it takes a little more work. Just my two cents...keeping a long line on the pup until it is reliable is a great idea. Someone recommended a biothane long lead on here to me, it is incredible. It never tangles and doesn't get dirty or collect water and he has the freedom of being off leash while I can step in and control if need be. After a couple weeks of working on this lead he is a new dog. We can walk past birds, dogs, kids, you name it and he's good.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Apex1 said:


> Do you recall how long you spent on e collar work/training and does your dog still where it off leash and how old?


 I spent a month or so working on the e-collar recall. Maybe a little longer than it should have taken but I was new to e-collar's. As far as the dog still wearing it. not really. I'll put it on them occasionally just so they get to wear it with no stim. Sometimes we'll work recall just to keep it fresh and reliable. I don't use the e-collar recall command daily. Kind of an ace in the hole command. The dog can be wearing no collar and I can recall. He is 2 1/2 now.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> My thoughts went this way too a few months ago. I considered the e collar but I'm glad now I was convinced not to. You can have a solid recall without an e collar, what did they do ages before the e collar wasn't invented? I've seen first hand dogs blow through the most intense stimuli and ignore recalls still (high drive and focus they seemed to not even feel the stimuli at that point). My point is that nothing will work 100% however many have great results with the e collar on here. And many can also have great results without, perhaps it takes a little more work. Just my two cents...keeping a long line on the pup until it is reliable is a great idea. Someone recommended a biothane long lead on here to me, it is incredible. It never tangles and doesn't get dirty or collect water and he has the freedom of being off leash while I can step in and control if need be. After a couple weeks of working on this lead he is a new dog. We can walk past birds, dogs, kids, you name it and he's good.


 What did they do before e-collar's? I can't say for sure since I wasn't around. But, dogs weren't always treated as the fragile animals we treat them as today. I imagine it was quite a bit harsher than e-collar training. Maybe someone with info on this can chime in.
I wanted to be able to let my dogs walk off leash in the mountains. I tried the long lead thing not very practical while in a forest. 
Those dogs you watched blow through electric were probably poorly trained with electric. It isn't about really intense stimuli. Same as any tool. It is only as good as the human using it. However, I believe that the most reliable recall will be achieved with electric.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> What did they do before e-collar's? I can't say for sure since I wasn't around. But, dogs weren't always treated as the fragile animals we treat them as today. I imagine it was quite a bit harsher than e-collar training. Maybe someone with info on this can chime in.
> I wanted to be able to let my dogs walk off leash in the mountains. I tried the long lead thing not very practical while in a forest.
> Those dogs you watched blow through electric were probably poorly trained with electric. It isn't about really intense stimuli. Same as any tool. It is only as good as the human using it. However, I believe that the most reliable recall will be achieved with electric.


More solid training and long line work I'd imagine (although yes probably harsher methods too!) I prefer positive reinforcement with training the recall, I only want it to be a pleasant experience for him. He is very ball driven so we have used this to our advantage. Every dog is different and responds better to a particular method, my last two dogs required very little off leash training and they never blew a recall and stuck by us. Trust me a biothane long lead is VERY practical in the forest, we hike in the dense florida underbrush here with saw palms galore, much thicker than any mountain/northern woods. We are also hiking the mountains this week so I will let you know how that goes. One of the main reasons we bought this dog was to have an off leash hiking partner. Shepherds have that natural instinct to stay close by, which is why we chose this breed. This long line doesn't snag on anything and it doesn't soak up moisture. My current dog took quite a bit more work than the last two, he had a solid recall up until 8 or 9 months when he blew it on a neighbors toy poodle harassing him. After working with the long lead around more toy dog distractions he is now perfect. We have no more problems going out in the yard he completely ignores the poodle. He has always had a perfect recall off of chasing deer, rabbit, and birds and he has a very high prey drive. At 10 months old I would say his recall is now 99%, he no longer blows me off but still I choose to keep the long line on him since it isn't any trouble (not to mention leash laws around here). Here is a video of him going after a bird and then the recall. And another of hiking with the biothane lead (sometimes we cut into those dense areas on your left and right and the lead does well.) Yes I could very well believe those dogs with the e collar were poorly trained, I've seen how effective a good trainer is with an E collar but there are other options for the OP. I didn't go with the E collar because I couldn't afford one and I couldn't afford the trainer. It is too easy to ruin a dog if you do it the wrong way! I also personally don't believe there is any harm waiting until the dog is older, this is adolescence after all they have much growing up to do. We train our recall every single day and we train hard, this pup has been off leash/ or on a long lead in the woods since he was 8 weeks old.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> Head Underwater: Simple Tips to Achieving a Really Reliable Recall | The Collared Scholar


That was a really good article. Something that I have done that I just have always done and it does expand on the "tell" indicators that owners don't realize they are giving off: often time when I take my boy for a ride to a favorite spot, many times when we leave it is to go to another favorite spot. So inadvertantly, I taught him that leaving an area doesn't always mean we are going home. 

With all the stuff that I had to learn how to do. It's kind of neat reading something that a good trainer explains and find I was doing something right just by happenstance. Lol.

Op, especially since your pup is young, keep structured training short then just incorporate during play time. At 6yrs old, I still find my boy learns best with short training excersizes that are interspersed with fun time.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

6 months is young he is still very much a puppy and will attempt to blow you off it is when I started working with a biothane lead for awhile. You will eventually know what direction you need to go. Dogs are all different. I used a biothane lead with Luna worked great I can actually call her off a deer if she started to run after it. Max lol! Not so much then now yes. - completly different dog. I went the route of the biothane lead for a long time. Around 16 month mark he became most challenging is when I went the route with the e collar and can call max off anything. Often I don’t use it but I make sure I put it one occasionally don’t want to get to comfortable. This dog loves to train with me it’s all he wants to do. Photos of him with no e collar. He just starts smelling the air sticking his big tongue tasting the air - in hunt mode now- it’s when I would not even have a window to redirect him he would just be off on his adventure. Lima is already looking at me. The second photo he looks to me. I can call him away even if a bunch of deer blow by us. I do feel the ecollar really makes the recall solid in many dogs with a high prey drive and many are water proof. When we were at the ocean one late night there was something in the water max started to go after in the water I’m glad I had the ecollar on. I’m glad we stayed out of the water to that night.

I used a trainer to show me how to use the e collar. It had a light at night and waterproof. One day I want the one with the tracker on it. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/140332
https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Sport-Bundle-Training-Device/dp/B01276FRQG


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't really agree with the article posted. For many dogs, chasing a deer or rabbit will always be better than a treat, a game, a toy. The idea that the owner needs to be more fun than the environment, pretty crazy if you think about dogs who not only get self-rewarded by chasing, literally addicted to the adrenaline rush, but whose very instincts drive them to run and chase. Lots of dogs out there are like that, some more than others. 

I teach my dogs two types of recall- one is always immediately enforced, used for situations the dogs need to turn and sprint to me immediately. The other is more casual. I keep the dogs in practice with the urgent recall using e-collar if needed. I also taught them to come with the tone on the collar. That is a nice feature when the environment is loud and I need to call them (rushing creek, wind, etc.). Most of the time, I never use the e-collars to correct, but have them if I need them. 

What did people do before e-collars? Well, a lot of dogs died in the road, some were shot, some were lost. I read an old bird dog training book, they advised to ride down the errant "trash-chasing" dog (eg. a bird dog chasing deer when it should be hunting pheasant), on horseback. When they finally caught the dog, the book advised to give that dog a beating he wouldn't forget. Repeat as needed. Or cull the dog. So, that's one example of what they did before e-collars. 

Or you can read Khoeler's training guide and see how he handled it. Remember, before the modern dog-parent era, dogs that didn't naturally work out to the life they were in, were often just gotten rid of, or died due to accident.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I use the collar to proof exercises. However, I am a big believer in teaching the behavior before I add in any kind of pressure or pain. It is unfair to the dog to add that in when they don't understand what is expected of them.

Having said that, a solid recall and a solid down are my go to for safety. The down is the one I use most and continue to proof with electric. If I tell platz and he doesn't drop, there will be tell to pay. It's a non negotiable command that his life could depend on.

There are many roads to Rome. Find the one right for you while being fair to your dog.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> More solid training and long line work I'd imagine (although yes probably harsher methods too!) I prefer positive reinforcement with training the recall, I only want it to be a pleasant experience for him. He is very ball driven so we have used this to our advantage. Every dog is different and responds better to a particular method, my last two dogs required very little off leash training and they never blew a recall and stuck by us. Trust me a biothane long lead is VERY practical in the forest, we hike in the dense florida underbrush here with saw palms galore, much thicker than any mountain/northern woods. We are also hiking the mountains this week so I will let you know how that goes. One of the main reasons we bought this dog was to have an off leash hiking partner. Shepherds have that natural instinct to stay close by, which is why we chose this breed. This long line doesn't snag on anything and it doesn't soak up moisture. My current dog took quite a bit more work than the last two, he had a solid recall up until 8 or 9 months when he blew it on a neighbors toy poodle harassing him. After working with the long lead around more toy dog distractions he is now perfect. We have no more problems going out in the yard he completely ignores the poodle. He has always had a perfect recall off of chasing deer, rabbit, and birds and he has a very high prey drive. At 10 months old I would say his recall is now 99%, he no longer blows me off but still I choose to keep the long line on him since it isn't any trouble (not to mention leash laws around here). Here is a video of him going after a bird and then the recall. And another of hiking with the biothane lead (sometimes we cut into those dense areas on your left and right and the lead does well.) Yes I could very well believe those dogs with the e collar were poorly trained, I've seen how effective a good trainer is with an E collar but there are other options for the OP. I didn't go with the E collar because I couldn't afford one and I couldn't afford the trainer. It is too easy to ruin a dog if you do it the wrong way! I also personally don't believe there is any harm waiting until the dog is older, this is adolescence after all they have much growing up to do. We train our recall every single day and we train hard, this pup has been off leash/ or on a long lead in the woods since he was 8 weeks old.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RPIwfPzv-M
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN3KUbv5v_U



Just because one uses an ecollar to proof does not mean they do not use positive reinforcement to train a recall. And even after introducing and using an ecollar - it doesn't mean that the positive reinforcement stops.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

mspiker03 said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > More solid training and long line work I'd imagine (although yes probably harsher methods too!) I prefer positive reinforcement with training the recall, I only want it to be a pleasant experience for him. He is very ball driven so we have used this to our advantage. Every dog is different and responds better to a particular method, my last two dogs required very little off leash training and they never blew a recall and stuck by us. Trust me a biothane long lead is VERY practical in the forest, we hike in the dense florida underbrush here with saw palms galore, much thicker than any mountain/northern woods. We are also hiking the mountains this week so I will let you know how that goes. One of the main reasons we bought this dog was to have an off leash hiking partner. Shepherds have that natural instinct to stay close by, which is why we chose this breed. This long line doesn't snag on anything and it doesn't soak up moisture. My current dog took quite a bit more work than the last two, he had a solid recall up until 8 or 9 months when he blew it on a neighbors toy poodle harassing him. After working with the long lead around more toy dog distractions he is now perfect. We have no more problems going out in the yard he completely ignores the poodle. He has always had a perfect recall off of chasing deer, rabbit, and birds and he has a very high prey drive. At 10 months old I would say his recall is now 99%, he no longer blows me off but still I choose to keep the long line on him since it isn't any trouble (not to mention leash laws around here). Here is a video of him going after a bird and then the recall. And another of hiking with the biothane lead (sometimes we cut into those dense areas on your left and right and the lead does well.) Yes I could very well believe those dogs with the e collar were poorly trained, I've seen how effective a good trainer is with an E collar but there are other options for the OP. I didn't go with the E collar because I couldn't afford one and I couldn't afford the trainer. It is too easy to ruin a dog if you do it the wrong way! I also personally don't believe there is any harm waiting until the dog is older, this is adolescence after all they have much growing up to do. We train our recall every single day and we train hard, this pup has been off leash/ or on a long lead in the woods since he was 8 weeks old.
> ...


No where did I say that. You are mis quoting me. I am a strong believer in well rounded training, I use both positive and negative reinforcement. For example I use a prong collar and some situations I use treats or praise. I'm just saying there are other alternatives. You don't NEED an e collar for a successful recall. It all depends on how the specific dog learns. I didn't train with an e collar for several reasons:
1.) a quality one can be expensive and we are poor
2.) you need to know what you are doing with one or get a good trainer to help teach you. I don't know how to use one and I can't afford a trainer at the moment.
3.) my dog is soft. He yelps self correcting on a large size prong collar. He learns best through encouragement and positive training. 

this is what worked for my dog, he doesn't chase deer, turkey, rabbits, people, or other dogs and we trained him with just a long lead, praise, his ball, and food.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Exactly what mspiker said. Just because one uses a ecollar one can’t assume that the yellow brook road was skipped. Like the advise cloudpump posted above -I was a big head dunker -I can understand- I enjoy having fun. I did all the practicing off lead without distractions they always got many treats checking in voluntarily and when called over from light fun. Leashes went on and off when I call them over I still do this. Long lead on line around distractions. When max comes over with the ecollar it doesn’t mean the fun stops there -otherwise you will be be dependent upon the ecollar and the dog will not be happy to work with you. If they are barking at a someone walking by The property I have to call them over usually one a time with a serious loud command for max - which Luna blows off - for her it is a sweet fun voice that gets her every time. It means more fun in the house. My teenage kids think I’m fun and like to hang out with me and they are incredible kids -so I have no issues with my dogs think I’m fun. I worked on that aspect.

Chasing wild animals I had to be honest with my self- nothing beats that kind of wild rush and getting max to think through that rush of full out adrenaline excitement was the challenge it was no insult to me and he was not being a bratt. He was not incapable of listening either. At that time his brain can handle so much in that 1 second instant on his own. The e collar helped. He is mature now and with a mature brain and the training it’s is really nice to see the dots can be easier connected.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I don't really agree with the article posted. For many dogs, chasing a deer or rabbit will always be better than a treat, a game, a toy. The idea that the owner needs to be more fun than the environment, pretty crazy if you think about dogs who not only get self-rewarded by chasing, literally addicted to the adrenaline rush, but whose very instincts drive them to run and chase. Lots of dogs out there are like that, some more than others.
> 
> I teach my dogs two types of recall- one is always immediately enforced, used for situations the dogs need to turn and sprint to me immediately. The other is more casual. I keep the dogs in practice with the urgent recall using e-collar if needed. I also taught them to come with the tone on the collar. That is a nice feature when the environment is loud and I need to call them (rushing creek, wind, etc.). Most of the time, I never use the e-collars to correct, but have them if I need them.
> 
> ...


Yes I wondered the same - what did they do back then? Now I have the answer.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Jenny720 said:


> Muskeg said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really agree with the article posted. For many dogs, chasing a deer or rabbit will always be better than a treat, a game, a toy. The idea that the owner needs to be more fun than the environment, pretty crazy if you think about dogs who not only get self-rewarded by chasing, literally addicted to the adrenaline rush, but whose very instincts drive them to run and chase. Lots of dogs out there are like that, some more than others.
> ...


I don't think it's correct to base all of your information off someone's one opinion. I'm sure there were lots of different methods to training dogs back then just as there are today! Yes it's probably true more cruel punishment occurred because laws and organizations protecting animals didn't exist but I'm willing to bet people had many creative ways of training dogs. People worked with their dogs more back then, dogs had a job they weren't just kept to look cute and be pets like they are today. Also do you really believe a 6 month old puppy needs an e collar?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Muskeg said:
> ...


Well it sure made sense to me. I know what they did with people in the past! I think many people were definitely narrow minded back then also their time and patience limited as dogs were mainly used for work. Narrow mindness is still a disease today but is not as rampant in some places. I do not think an ecollar is needed yet at 6 months old there is still much work to do but it sure needs not to be discarded as proofing down the road. Not sure where they live - busy road near a highway etc. or what dangers this dog is getting into or how often running off is practiced. The owner will need to weigh that In and figure that out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I don't think it's correct to base all of your information off someone's one opinion. I'm sure there were lots of different methods to training dogs back then just as there are today! Yes it's probably true more cruel punishment occurred because laws and organizations protecting animals didn't exist but I'm willing to bet people had many creative ways of training dogs. People worked with their dogs more back then, dogs had a job they weren't just kept to look cute and be pets like they are today. Also do you really believe a 6 month old puppy needs an e collar?


Harsher training and animals dying in accidents was the norm. It's also fact. Nobody can change history just because they havent researched it. Do some research. Harsher methods did not stop because of laws. They still happen every day. The methods are changing because of science and proving that balanced fair training will win the championships.

And I'm fairly certain that if I take the time to research, I will find a post from you on your dog not recalling, which is why you were advised to keep your dog on a leash while visiting Pennsylvania. So maybe be a little less adamant against methods other than your own stated by much more experienced people.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it's correct to base all of your information off someone's one opinion. I'm sure there were lots of different methods to training dogs back then just as there are today! Yes it's probably true more cruel punishment occurred because laws and organizations protecting animals didn't exist but I'm willing to bet people had many creative ways of training dogs. People worked with their dogs more back then, dogs had a job they weren't just kept to look cute and be pets like they are today. Also do you really believe a 6 month old puppy needs an e collar?
> ...


We have more cars today so wouldn't you expect more to be hit by cars? Read my posts above I discussed my dogs recall with the poodle in detail and what worked for us to retrain this. I was given wonderful advice on here to work with a long biothane lead around distractions and it worked great! He is now solid on his recalls. This is a 6 month old puppy, I think too young for an e collar so I am passing this information on to help the OP. Sure people were cruel back then, people are cruel today, does that make it any more right? I'm not saying e collars are cruel. Just something to think about. Do your research and maybe you'll realize we just said the same exact thing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> We have more cars today so wouldn't you expect more to be hit by cars? Read my posts above I discussed my dogs recall with the poodle in detail and what worked for us to retrain this. I was given wonderful advice on here to work with a long biothane lead around distractions and it worked great! He is now solid on his recalls. This is a 6 month old puppy, I think too young for an e collar so I am passing this information on to help the OP. Sure people were cruel back then, people are cruel today, does that make it any more right? I'm not saying e collars are cruel. Just something to think about. Do your research and maybe you'll realize we just said the same exact thing.


No. We did not say the same thing at all.

But hey....you do you.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I don't think it's correct to base all of your information off someone's one opinion. I'm sure there were lots of different methods to training dogs back then just as there are today! Yes it's probably true more cruel punishment occurred because laws and organizations protecting animals didn't exist but I'm willing to bet people had many creative ways of training dogs. People worked with their dogs more back then, dogs had a job they weren't just kept to look cute and be pets like they are today. Also do you really believe a 6 month old puppy needs an e collar?


Pick up and read some vintage dog training books. I've had quite the collection from the 1920s up through the current year. You won't find "lots of different methods" until the 90s. 

There has been an explosion in the dog training industry over the last 30 years. It's reflected in the practical training books for sale.

Even more importantly IMHO are the modern views of dogs in the scientific community -
Very little research was actually done on dog behavior and intellectual capacity until fairly recently. We are learning more and more about what dogs are capable of, and how they actually think and that IS changing the way trainers work with their dogs.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I used an e collar for a short time when my pup was about 6-7 months old. I stopped after a few weeks and have spent the last 3-4 months teaching commands thru play. If you can manage the environment, play with your dog, build the relationship and teach I would highly recommend it first. Long line work away from home working towards more stimulating environments. I saw a really big change for the better using play to teach and the growth in maturity from 6 months to 10 months is astonishing. Now at 10 months I am considering starting the e collar process again for a few reasons. I am just on the fence still, wondering if I should give him more time to mature, he is still an exuberant pup. I want off leash freedom for myself and my dog, I try to not let that fog my judgement and expect more than I can teach well and the dog can give. What is a fair age to expect a solid recall? I hear a lot of let the pup be a pup for the first year. I hope that by July of 2018 I can have it he will be a year and a half old.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> No where did I say that. You are mis quoting me. I am a strong believer in well rounded training, I use both positive and negative reinforcement. For example I use a prong collar and some situations I use treats or praise. I'm just saying there are other alternatives. You don't NEED an e collar for a successful recall. It all depends on how the specific dog learns. I didn't train with an e collar for several reasons:
> 1.) a quality one can be expensive and we are poor
> 2.) you need to know what you are doing with one or get a good trainer to help teach you. I don't know how to use one and I can't afford a trainer at the moment.
> 3.) my dog is soft. He yelps self correcting on a large size prong collar. He learns best through encouragement and positive training.
> ...


You mean both positive reinforcement and positive punishment? Negative reinforcement is creating a higher likelihood of the behavior in the future by removing an annoying/painful/unwanted stimulus. It drives me bonkers when people use the term "negative reinforcement" to refer to positive punishment.

I mean this kindly, but I've seen posts from you about other toys and treats and stuff you've bought Gandalf recently. I totally get wanting to spoil your dog, I love doing it for mine too. And the pictures are REALLY cute. But if you can afford all of those things, you could have chosen to budget instead for a trainer and some high quality equipment.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> You mean both positive reinforcement and positive punishment? Negative reinforcement is creating a higher likelihood of the behavior in the future by removing an annoying/painful/unwanted stimulus. It drives me bonkers when people use the term "negative reinforcement" to refer to positive punishment.
> 
> I mean this kindly, but I've seen posts from you about other toys and treats and stuff you've bought Gandalf recently. I totally get wanting to spoil your dog, I love doing it for mine too. And the pictures are REALLY cute. But if you can afford all of those things, you could have chosen to budget instead for a trainer and some high quality equipment.


I mean I use a prong collar for some things and treats, praise for other things depending on the situation and what he needs at the time. I'm not sure what you mean by treats and toys, you might be getting me confused with someone else :wink2:. His family loves him very much if anything, my parents buy him toys and so do my grandparents. And we paid for him a 8 week long CGC class with the CGC test at the end so budgeted out this month for classes! Not to mention he doesn't need an E collar, he is solid now on his recall. I really think it was a maturity thing for him and we just needed more practice. The long lead suggestion was the perfect solution for us and helped us train him! Anyways again, I didn't come here to get trashed on about my dog or advice on how to budget my money lol. I was just passing on the wonderful advice that was given to me when I was in this same situation not long ago, long line for a young puppy does wonders. Again i'm not bashing E collars, there are just other options you can use along side an E collar.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I mean I use a prong collar for some things and treats, praise for other things depending on the situation and what he needs at the time. I'm not sure what you mean by treats and toys, you might be getting me confused with someone else :wink2:. His family loves him very much if anything, my parents buy him toys and so do my grandparents. And we paid for him a 8 week long CGC class with the CGC test at the end so budgeted out this month for classes! Not to mention he doesn't need an E collar, he is solid now on his recall. I really think it was a maturity thing for him and we just needed more practice. The long lead suggestion was the perfect solution for us and helped us train him! Anyways again, I didn't come here to get trashed on about my dog. I was just passing on the wonderful advice that was given to me when I was in this same situation not long ago, long line for a young puppy does wonders.


Yes. A collar pop with a prong is positive punishment: Adding an unpleasant stimulus to decrease the future likelihood of the behavior. He pulls, you pop, he doesn't like the pop and learns not to pull. Positive (adding to environment) punishment (decreasing the chances he'll do it again).

I'm pretty sure you've posted some really cute pictures of him with new stuff you said you bought him, but I don't have time to go look at your post history to verify whether I'm mistaken.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Yes. A collar pop with a prong is positive punishment: Adding an unpleasant stimulus to decrease the future likelihood of the behavior. He pulls, you pop, he doesn't like the pop and learns not to pull. Positive (adding to environment) punishment (decreasing the chances he'll do it again).
> 
> I'm pretty sure you've posted some really cute pictures of him with new stuff you said you bought him, but I don't have time to go look at your post history to verify whether I'm mistaken.


Yep that is what we use then, positive punishment along with treats, reward, praise, ball, etc. It works well for him and doesn't take much of a correction for him to get the point! Smart fellow :grin2:. Thanks i'm guessing you mean the photo we had taken by the vet for the local animal shelter? My moms antlers, she just let us barrow them! I worked extra hours this month to afford him nice christmas toys though, I am guilty of spoiling my dogs.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I mean I use a prong collar for some things and treats, praise for other things depending on the situation and what he needs at the time. I'm not sure what you mean by treats and toys, you might be getting me confused with someone else :wink2:. His family loves him very much if anything, my parents buy him toys and so do my grandparents. And we paid for him a 8 week long CGC class with the CGC test at the end so budgeted out this month for classes! Not to mention he doesn't need an E collar, he is solid now on his recall. I really think it was a maturity thing for him and we just needed more practice. The long lead suggestion was the perfect solution for us and helped us train him! Anyways again, I didn't come here to get trashed on about my dog *or advice on how to budget my money lol*. I was just passing on the wonderful advice that was given to me when I was in this same situation not long ago, long line for a young puppy does wonders. *Again i'm not bashing E collars, there are just other options you can use along side an E collar.*


Pardon me, I missed the edits. That's true, my advice was unsolicited. It's okay if you personally don't want to use an ecollar, just own it. I'm not terribly comfortable with ecollars either. I don't think people who do use them are wrong. I also own that I just personally don't prefer to use one, full stop. That kind of preference is completely acceptable in my opinion, and my experience with the forum is that most people are really respectful of that.


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## JeffR (Jul 27, 2017)

Lots of really good thoughts here. Thanks for taking the time. Obviously I’m not alone in working on this challenge. I’m going to try more consistent long lead time in different environments and let the kid grow up some more in the meantime. As if he knew how disappointed I was for running off, he was a perfect angel (as close as he could get) around the house the next day


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## bkernan (May 17, 2009)

JeffR said:


> Lots of really good thoughts here. Thanks for taking the time. Obviously I’m not alone in working on this challenge. I’m going to try more consistent long lead time in different environments and let the kid grow up some more in the meantime. As if he knew how disappointed I was for running off, he was a perfect angel (as close as he could get) around the house the next day


Late to the party on this post, but after an experience with Hudson that had me literally running through New York City at 5:30 am as he chased a rat/baby muskrat/god knows what across Central Park - I realized his recall was not as sounds as I'd thought, LOL. That LOL, only comes now because at the time I was full on crazy dog lady scared out of my mind he'd get hit by a car that day.

Anyways, we worked hard on recall after that and some might poo poo this but Hebrew National Hot Dogs made it happen - and I'm not even mad all my coat pockets smell like processed meat. In all seriousness though, I totally feel your pain and with Hud his prey drive is out of this world so we turned to something even better in his mind, hot dogs. It worked. Hope your pup is doing well!


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Woah please back up. How did u make hot dogs worth it?


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## bkernan (May 17, 2009)

Apex1 said:


> Woah please back up. How did u make hot dogs worth it?


he just loves hot dogs i guess, not sure why those are his thing but we trained with them on a long line after our chase incident and now he is pretty bullet proof with recall. strange i know

edit: i wasn't shelling out hotdogs like nathan's on coney island but we would cut them up and use as high value treat - just to clarify


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