# Endy von Karthago



## SPOR

He seems to be a very popular stud in Germany and Czech Republic/Slovakia. However, when I look at his accomplishments, it seems he has not participated in LGA, BSP, etc. Same is the case with some others like Bomber vom Wolfsheim, Drago vom Patriot, etc. However, their number of breedings is just insane (source: winsis-cat).

What is the reason behind this? What do they bring to the table? Is it their pedigree or their structure, temperament, etc.?

Could some one please explain? Thank you.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Can only speak about Drago as I was eyeing some of his litters.

Chatted with a person who knows the dog and is very knowledgeable about pedigrees (which I am not which is why I asked a similar question!) 

The answer was what you suspect, what he brings to the table in terms of structure and temperament. He is a 'lot of dog' I've been told. 

He recently went back to Germany for some breedings which I was told is fairly rare.

I don't think the Germans would do that unless his progeny were doing really well so he is passing along traits people desire.

I'm sure some of our pedigree knowledgeable folks will be able to give you concise answers and I'm interested too! 






SPOR said:


> He seems to be a very popular stud in Germany and Czech Republic/Slovakia. However, when I look at his accomplishments, it seems he has not participated in LGA, BSP, etc. Same is the case with some others like Bomber vom Wolfsheim, Drago vom Patriot, etc. However, their number of breedings is just insane (source: winsis-cat).
> 
> What is the reason behind this? What do they bring to the table? Is it their pedigree or their structure, temperament, etc.?
> 
> Could some one please explain? Thank you.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Sequoyah German Shepherds is using Drago as an outside stud.

They list the reasons and pics of him here at this link.....(I have to say IMHO this boy is major eye candy to boot).

Drago


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## Mrs.K

My mom is oggling over Drago. She was talking about him on our last phone calls. If we still had a female I am sure Drago would be on the list as stud. 

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## mycobraracr

I thought Sequoyah bought Drago. I could be wrong and I can't remember where I got that. 

I am just learning so don't weigh too heavily on what I say. All I have ever heard about Bomber was about his grip. He has a crushing grip but IMO that's about it. I believe his litter mate Bandit was the "better producer".


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## SPOR

Yes...that's what I gathered about Bomber from threads on this forum and on PDB - that his bite/grip is harder than others.

Thank you to all who posted for the info on Drago.

Can other experienced members also pitch in please?

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## Gwenhwyfair

Nope, Drago is at Canine Concepts.

Welcome to the Canine Concepts

Looked at one of his pups, but it was a female and I already have two girls in the house....



mycobraracr said:


> I thought Sequoyah bought Drago. I could be wrong and I can't remember where I got that.
> 
> I am just learning so don't weigh too heavily on what I say. All I have ever heard about Bomber was about his grip. He has a crushing grip but IMO that's about it. I believe his litter mate Bandit was the "better producer".


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## cliffson1

For many knowledgable breeders participation in those events do not signify a good breeding candidate necessarily. In answer to your question, probably half the people that breed base their choices on "looks" and "structure". A few more serious breeders make decisions on genetics and compatibility.....I think you can look to those reasons for these dogs popularity.


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## carmspack

looks like Drago's brother Dyko is for sale on Canine Concepts import page . does not anywhere near get the glam promotion Dyko vom Patriot ? working-dog


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## Gwenhwyfair

Actually what is interesting is, again speaking specifically about Drago, he hasn't been competed *as* extensively as other dogs that have become popular and vice-versa. 



cliffson1 said:


> For many knowledgable breeders participation in those events do not signify a good breeding candidate necessarily. In answer to your question, probably half the people that breed base their choices on "looks" and "structure". A few more serious breeders make decisions on genetics and compatibility.....I think you can look to those reasons for these dogs popularity.


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## wolfstraum

the power of the internet! If someone insists on something over and over it must be true!

I am not a big Bomber fan for several reasons.... a V rated black gets breedings...people there ARE considering the conformation aspect in breeding - Buster Adelsmannfelder Land, Paska Salztalblice, Elliot Hambachler Schlossblick...all these dogs got breedings and attention because they were good looking black dogs...and I AM a sucker for the same....but recognize it for what it is....a common trend in Germany to use such a dog for breeding because he is black and V rated....He has done OK as a sire but not produced dogs who are being competed by top competitors, and in all likelihood another young dog has replaced him as the fashionable black male for breeding and the owner - who has been a dog broker for many years - sold him to the US. I would guess his breeding demand was dropping and he was able to get a very very good price for him....quite a few big name dogs have come here under similar circumstances....Drago is still popular there and does get breedings there...he might even earn his purchase price back in breedings here...as he is getting much more attention and use than the last 'big name' dogs to be brought over.

Comparing a dog who had 3 litters, with less than a handful titled, in Germany, and was sold while a magazine article stated he was not a breeding dog and, and who here breeds as many showline females for pet pups, to his littermate, who has at least 336 progeny reported with statistics showing about 90 titled progeny (40ish are IPO3) and 2 here that were competed by a top competitor? Be logical...who is the better producer? It is not uncommon for littermates of well known dogs to be touted and bred based on the accomplishments of their famous siblings - but see it for what it is, and what was promoted prior to Bombers arrival here!

Just like Dyko and Drago v Patriot....believe that the Germans know which is the better individual from the beginning and that is the one that gets kept and used (until the money starts talking!  )

Lee


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## SPOR

Hi...Actually as I said, all I had gathered (not believed  ) about Bomber was that his bite/grip is harder than most (from a previous post on this forum and PDB) and some "fanatic" claiming him to be the best stud in the world at the moment (on some post on PDB). I was not sure what to believe of the first part and was suspicious of the second part (maybe posted by someone close to the owner and his breeding program).

Bringing the thread back to Endy: 
@wolfstraum, @cliffson1 & @mrs.k, since you are reputable and honest breeders, and may be in contact with european counterparts, have you heard about anything about Endy von Karthago? Just curious.

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## wolfstraum

LOL I was looking at another persons post....

the PDB is a cesspool, I rarely look at it and give it less credibility! 

I really haven't been following Endy or heard anyone talking about him - don't like his pedigree from a breeding standpoint as it is a bottleneck already...Tim Abfur was a good producer but with Yoshey AND Nick on the bottom as well....


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## Smithie86

We like the dog with the Amigo line on the bottom and going back on F litter karthago. A line we had bred to and like what it produces.

Like Drago for what he brings to the combos. We had him on the short list for our breedings that we have been doing for a few years in Europe and then he moved here. 
Having seen the dog multiple times, just around and working - this is not a point dog.


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## carmspack

back after doing chores - so I can explain why I posted the other youtube of Endy --

first , yes he is a beautiful conformation dog .
and Lee , ms wolfstraum was dead accurate in crediting Buster Adelsmannfelder Land, (or some such spelling) as a source of good conformation. I have mentioned him before in threads here and elsewhere as a sample of good conformation in the case where a working line needed improvement .

Looking at the Welcome to the Canine Concepts
youtube and promotion I was frankly surprised . I have not ever looked at Endy , and wanted to see what all the fuss and fanfare was about. Still don't know. Curious that a youtube was removed of Endy on the CC youtube.
The youtube of the bark and hold ???? nice obedience routine , looked like a clean up job? all prey , dog flies out for the sleeve and then parades around with it -- no pressure on the dog -- in the other tape you can see some arousal, lofting of hair -- 

I am here to learn . can you expand on this Smithie86 "Having seen the dog multiple times, just around and working - this is not a point dog. " 

to my eye I see play and prey --- wonder about thresholds for pressure (for work)


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## Smithie86

Gary brought him up here for our helper seminar. Worked him on his son (known helper) and then on James Laney (not known helper), who put pressure on the dog and dog pushed harder in the work.

One of the conversations that people brought out was that he was the type of dog that used to be worked and competed with about 10 years ago. 

This is also a dog that has a lot of attitude and physical presence.


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## carmspack

what am I missing ---


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## MilesNY

My female is a Drago daughter and a bomber grand daughter. I went and picked her up from Gary. She is just a pup but so far an extremely nice dog. Intense drive and great grips. Don't know how she will mature but she is smart, super focus, loves to work (all phases not just protection) and is very intense. Yet stable and confident. All I will say is I am having a blast training her. She is becoming a very pretty girl to look at too. Lol

From what I gather from talking to Gary and others who are breeding to Drago, he produces himself in pretty much everything he is bred to, not a lot of stud dogs can do it, which is why the Germans wanted him back for a couple months to breed. I am sure he has already made back his purchase price in breedings in the US alone it was over when I picked up my pup.


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## MilesNY

Over 40 breedings... Typo


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## carmspack




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## robk

Drago is a nice looking dog. Met him and Gary in SC earlier in the year. What I would really like to see is Pike del lupo Nero or Kinski vom Heidhof make it to this side of the pond.


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## carmspack

ms wolfstraum said "I really haven't been following Endy or heard anyone talking about him - don't like his pedigree from a breeding standpoint as it is a bottleneck already...Tim Abfur was a good producer but with Yoshey AND Nick on the bottom as well.... "

again that typical "top sport" pedigree concentrations on Fero and T bosen nachbarschaft . Not so bad in himself , but did look at the litters , at least what was available on the PDB , and see that he is being bred back to the same formula , more Fero , more T B NS .
One that was a bit different had Arek Stoffelblick and that would bring some hardness.

In the you tubes I looked at I saw hectickness in this male .

looking to learn


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## SPOR

This is interesting. 
Looking at the pedigrees and some previous discussions on this section, I guess having too many entries for Fero, Troll, Timmy, Yoschy, etc. is what you call the bottleneck. I looked at Endy's breedings and yes, they are packing in more of the same - so probably their intent is for out-and-out sporty dogs.

But when I look at most of the well-known studs in recent history, they seem to have a healthy "dosage" of Fero, Troll, etc. Even Drago for that matter has quite a few Fero in his 7-generation pedigree.

So what should we look for when trying to widen the spectrum? Add more Czech (original) bloodlines?

Always looking to learn.


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## carmspack

when I look at the video I see "unsettled" 
instead of a powerful eye drill I see the dogs head flicking around looking about 
prey drive , look at one video and the dog is working the decoy , but not the man, the sleeve , in fact the decoy grabs onto the corner of the sleeve to hold it , catches himself and moves his hand . dog looks like it is playing a tug game.

when you compress so much of a particular stud you had better know and understand the pedigree so that when you breed you don't breed titles or top dog of the day, you have to LINK the BEST parts of in this case Fero's pedigrees to best parts in the female which AVOID the WEAK parts in her pedigree.
Don't know if I am seeing it. You have to watch that you don't get kennel spinners , tail chasers , reactive behaviour , unstable , unlivable dogs. No longer the balance


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> when I look at the video I see "unsettled"
> instead of a powerful eye drill I see the dogs head flicking around looking about
> prey drive , look at one video and the dog is working the decoy , but not the man, the sleeve , in fact the decoy grabs onto the corner of the sleeve to hold it , catches himself and moves his hand . dog looks like it is playing a tug game.
> 
> when you compress so much of a particular stud you had better know and understand the pedigree so that when you breed you don't breed titles or top dog of the day, you have to LINK the BEST parts of in this case Fero's pedigrees to best parts in the female which AVOID the WEAK parts in her pedigree.
> Don't know if I am seeing it. You have to watch that you don't get kennel spinners , tail chasers , reactive behaviour , unstable , unlivable dogs. No longer the balance


Most importantly HEALTH! 

I would love to know how healthy the progeny is, I.e auto immune issues etc. 

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## carmspack

went back and reviewed first video (page 1) that I had sent . So focused on looking at the dog that this information escaped my attention -- 20 second mark
Drago scores LGA 46 90 96.

46 !?! - and that is a 96 protection --- mm


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## cliffson1

Good posts Carmen, and something I hope people understand....we are not disparaging any of these dogs....they are great for what they are. No dog is everything! Some of the best performance dogs are not the best producers, like in horses, when you talk about how good a stud dog is its in context to who you are breeding them to ( unless there is more bad than good). I am sure Endy is the right dog for certain females, or Drago, or Pascha, or whomever. But to look at a picture or video or SCH scores and make a breeding decision is just plain back yard breeding to my way of thinking.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Just for the record the reason I chimed in on this thread is I met a breeder *personally* who had used Drago and had puppies available by him (Denise Kiah). I spoke with her in person and held the puppy in my arms***.*..and that's when I first heard Drago's name as the puppies sire.

I knew nothing of him. I said no to the puppy because I really don't need another female in my house right now.

Later called my favorite mentor on the phone (who I call my GSD encylopeadia LOL! A person who is like Carmen and Cliff, knows pedigrees by heart) to ask if I had screwed up passing on this puppy. This person has seen Drago personally and gave me the goods and bads on him in the pedigree.

Anyhoo, it wasn't the right puppy for me for a couple of reasons but I must say Denise Kiah was pleased with the litter and I found her to be a nice down to earth person and would enjoy meeting her again.

****squiggling bundle of puppy cuteness in my arms, adorable little black female, breeder going on about pedigree, me way too much in puppy love to hear or understand it all LOL!!


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## carmspack

thanks Cliff there are more to come , but take time to put together , rather complex questioning.

Thanks Cliff , you are right , I am not disparaging these dogs , not even questioning what they produce or are capable of producing . 

I do question promotion , arbiters of taste which determine the trending of lines , the continued narrowing of genetic diversity , which will be as distinct as ASL and WGSL which do satisfy all the criteria that a BREED would require standing on its own, and the lack of balance and inclusion of all the foundational groups that went into the making of the breed. 
I do support Fero. He has produced some exceptional line developing offspring. His pedigree has much to offer . It also has a problematic line . I happen to like his Boris Trogenbach portion and have this line through non Fero sources which do not carry some of the weak parts of Fero's pedigree. 
To demonstrate I'll use Javir Talka Marda as a pedigree example . I have not followed his production , I do not know whether he has made as much of a positive contribution as expected. HERE it counts a great deal who is breeding with him and the balance and soundness of those females . Often "shaky" females are brought to good males to compensate. Sometimes there is too much or too persistent , generation to generation, repair that needs to be done . Can not be done in one generation. "Kaizen" continual improvement . From a pedigree standpoint he does have Troll and Timmy , one of the reasons I chose him for a pedigree sample. Javir's pedigree is just so solid going back to Claudius Hain , one of the most solid sources for confident power and herding genetics, Bernd Lierberg, the old herding genetics Blanka Mummelsee and Dori Wanderschaferei . 
The Fero is surrounded by good choices .
ALL the female lines are strong , whereas some of the problems with Fero were his female lines . (compensation?) 
Here is a source then of keeping valuable lines to Claudius Hain active and satisfying sport . Many of the pedigrees looked at and discussed lately lack these lines (not Aly Vordersteinwald - whose dam is solid) . Many of the pedigrees are too much "Nestor" .


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## Smithie86

We look at the studs that produce, not the flavor of the month.

We like Endy from a pedigree standpoint. That is what I said.  When we have bred to similar lines (the F litter that I mentioned), we like what we got from the breedings. We do not breed to a male, unless we have seen him, worked him or have someone (WUSV helper, multi-competitor and police dog trainer) test and see the dog.


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## carmspack

is there any chance that colour might have something to do with it -- black and tan more or less disappearing from working , although I would now categorize these pedigrees into more "sport" which is becoming a separate compartment .

as an antidote after seeing this I had to look at a calm dog with some power


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## wolfstraum

Talked to a German judge recently - one high up in the structure in political ways, policing the judge's system and 'midnight trials', undone ADs etc....'

*His* opinion was that Javir has been used alot, but is producing "normal dogs" nothing particularly outstanding competitively - his popularity a product of the right training and showcasing...having seen a couple of Javir progeny, and talking to others who have seen them (including someone who has a Javir progeny), have them in their clubs (including a judge), I don't see him as a dog that is going to make a mark...from the bloodline info you input, he sounds like a source that would go well with my Kyra/Csabre family - but from the dogs I have info on/seen, I would not use a son of his with this family....

Like you, I have Fero in some dogs, and am just careful where it comes from and in what combination..... 

As far as Pike del Lupo Nero - his full sibling Nick is here....nice nice dog, competed sucessfully...I used him for one litter and 2 of the three pups I am able to keep close track of....Jagr will be starting to go for his titles this fall, and Jyce is doing all sorts of sports in Canada....he has not had that many breedings, and unfortunately, I think he will be overlooked by most because of the availability of Drago who is his "nephew"

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

deleted.


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## carmspack

if I could represent these animals in total anonymity in abstract , I would -- I am happy smithie that you got the results you were looking for -- honestly .


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## Merciel

I don't think you should have deleted that post. It made a good point. 

It _is_ helpful to know the good as well as bad. I repeat this a lot but I'm trying really hard to learn more about all of this, and so I am eternally greedy for all the little breadcrumbs of info I can get.

So far this has been a very helpful thread for me on that count. I'm glad so many people are posting their perspectives on the issue!


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm glad you saw it but it's just human nature, won't change a thing.



I've just learned it's better to step back and learn what you can but keep in mind there is a competitive edge to all this too.

btw- did you see the thread about WLs biddability and pack drive? That was a good one, for me too!



Merciel said:


> I don't think you should have deleted that post. It made a good point.
> 
> It _is_ helpful to know the good as well as bad. I repeat this a lot but I'm trying really hard to learn more about all of this, and so I am eternally greedy for all the little breadcrumbs of info I can get.
> 
> So far this has been a very helpful thread for me on that count. I'm glad so many people are posting their perspectives on the issue!


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## carmspack

I know this wolfstraum --- maybe too many breedings , wrong females ?? 

Maybe the "normal" but is producing "normal dogs" nothing particularly outstanding competitively -- is different outside the real of competition?

that is why I framed my use of his example of a pedigree with "I have not followed his production , I do not know whether he has made as much of a positive contribution as expected."

and did mention your words " his popularity a product of the right training and showcasing" and my wording "I do question promotion , arbiters of taste which determine the trending of lines "

I do occasionally look in on Javir , just to see. I do wonder though because he does conserve some very important , not so sporty, valuable herding lines , whether someone with a known continual line went out to use him or improved son/daughter , expected not-on-the-money first generation and started directing it the second then third to an overall place where you want to be. First generation I wouldn't foresee things going south, maybe a static state.

ah yes breeding , the art and science of it -- complex


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## carmspack

very lumpy phrasing because I was distracted by a phone call - sort of lost my train of thought.

so would you say that your (wolfstraum) information on Javir is that his progeny doesn't cut it for "top sport" , but they are normal , dogs that you can live with ? 

my one thing I said was if you keep going to extreme , which sport seems to reward , then you will get those hair trigger reactive dogs, who self damage , chase tails or other obsessive activity, with soundness of temperament in question. 
Are the Javir progeny at least SOUND . Would the basic owner user be well served. Did the progeny have a desire to work. Would they do well in any other working capacity outside of sport . BECAUSE sport is not the be all and end all of the GSD world , nor should it be the only aspect which puts value and worth on the dog ---

that does go full circle - many of the dogs discussed are "top sport"


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## wolfstraum

I observed one for several hours in a social setting....I talked to a trainer/judge who had the littermate in her club...and heard about the temperament of that dog from the person in the social setting .....this litter I almost have to discount the issues because I do not like the description of the dam's personality or her pedigree...those were not temperaments I could live with...that is ONE litter....

Others I have discussed had some good dogs and bad dogs - bad elbows, temperament...in same litter....litter bred in Germany....and a few others were just nothing especially negative or super wonderful terrific positive reported yet....as you say, perhaps in a few generations there will be something special click and pop out....have talked to a couple of people very happy with their Javier progeny....

There were two other **** SP sons being bred here in the US....Dean C's Verdi Karthago and Basko Haus Heldman.....Basko sired a litter from a Basha daughter, Marsha Seck's Elsa...male from that litter is very powerful, and on podium at WDC (3rd) and top 10 National last fall....talked to some people who know the dog who were nearby at Nationals when he was showing - have very high praise for him....young dog in first year of trialing, so he will be competing and hopefully being used for breeding.

Lee


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## carmspack

thank you for showing me Verdi Karthago !! V Verdi von Karthago


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## björn

Popular in germany I don´t think mean always good producing dog, if we look at the workinglines it seems breeders select dogs ranging from because they are "beautifull", good points in competitions, actually strong dogs or maybe a little bit of both or some other alternative, good marketing maybe

I know endy was to much dog for his previous owner and therefore ended up with the breeder he is located by now, who titled him but it was not an easy dog to show in competition. A breeder from a policebackground here in scandinaia are planning to use endy for the third time. According to this person few dogs impress him, some dogs are described as extreme by owner or breeders, but this is seldom true, most are ordinary, some bad and a few are of the kind you more seldom see, endy is a dog with the intensity and drive it was many years since this person saw, and I think the breeder in germnay who has endy has also quite high demands what is a good dog, he also has an endy son now that seems to be much dog so to speak.

So I think endy is popular because of his workingqualities and what he produces. Drago I don´t know much about, more than he is a bit to independent for sport if that´s true. It´s an intressting topic thou how you can "read" a dog in competition and say what is good or not, not so easy if you haven´t quite much experience, but I can see why people think both endy and drago are quality dogs and not "pointdogs", rember not all good dogs produces themselves either.


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## SPOR

wolfstraum said:


> *His* opinion was that Javir has been used alot, but is producing "normal dogs" nothing particularly outstanding competitively - his popularity a product of the right training and showcasing...


Talking about competitive dogs (by this I assume he meant sporty), Javir seems to have ~10 of his progeny competing in BSP in the last three years. Wouldn't that be considered significant competitively?

Again, I would like to clarify that I am not for/against any particular dog. I am just trying to better understand the judge's comment. Maybe some perspective that I missed.


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## cliffson1

I think this point flew over many people's head, popular studs are often bred to lacking females hoping for overcompensation. That was major problem with Yoschy and Fero, IN HINDSIGHT.....many many of the females were not good genetic matches, and in some cases strengthened negative recessives though they were hoping for other results. These dogs were subsequently bred because they were Fero/Yoschy sons or daughters.....there's a lot to this breeding thing!


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## lhczth

carmspack said:


> v
> Are the Javir progeny at least SOUND .


Yes, the ones I know, have seen in person in training, hung out with and live with. 




> Would the basic owner user be well served.


Yes. A comment a friend of mine made about Elena is she is a dog that normal people could handle and live with. All of the Javir kids I know personally are house pets and not just working dogs/sport dogs that live in kennels.



> Did the progeny have a desire to work. Would they do well in any other working capacity outside of sport . BECAUSE sport is not the be all and end all of the GSD world , nor should it be the only aspect which puts value and worth on the dog ---


Yes, talk to Vinnie about Ezio (aka Sundance) her husbands accelerant detection canine (and working on his IPO titles). 

Like all dogs Javir had to be bred correctly. The best progeny I saw were from breeders that knew what they were doing and didn't just breed to him because he was V (BSZS), 4X BSP and 3X WUSV. Javir, also, was a sleeper and the kids that I know and have handled work out of aggression and are not prey monsters. Many current trainers/helpers would probably dismiss them because of this. 

Javir's value is in his practically extinct sire line that goes back through Claudius Hain (like Carmen pointed out earlier), Urs Hopfenstraße and some of the old herding lines plus his bitch line back through Ira Körbelbach and Arthus Lünsholz who dam is again an excellent source of the old working blood.


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## Vinnie

Carmen - I posted this picture of my Javir son a while back and you gave me some very favorable comments that I really appreciated. He was 17 months old when this picture was taken.

PICT0056 by BlackDogsPhoto, on Flickr

He is over 2 years old now and lives in the house with my family and other dogs (and a cat who thinks he's a dog). He is very affectionate and social. Loves when guests come over and loves to go on outings. I would say he is a sound dog.

My husband is his handler but I have watched a lot all of his training. My husband trains with this dog daily. He trains in I.P.O. and scent detection. Sundance is a working and certified Accelerant Detection Canine (see my signature for link for more info). The I.P.O. or sport is a secondary thing so I doubt you'll ever see these two at a big competition, the accelerant detection work is primary. 

And a side note, just because I know you like herding, Sundance has also obtained his H.I.C. with some very favorable comments from the judge. Of course this was AKC herding and not HGH which the judge pointed out that he would be better at the later. My husband was not interested in herding and he didn't want to pursue that training and chose I.P.O. instead. 

I agree with the comment that Javir and *all dogs* have to be bred correctly or of course all sorts of problems could crop up.

PS. Going to watch a Bomber progeny compete at a local trial this weekend at level 3. I'm looking forward to it. The other dogs being talked about here - I have never seen nor do I have any personal experience with so I won't bother to comment.


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## markdafedman

FWIW, I have a female from Endy Von Karthago and Xenia von den Wölfen. 

Maja aus dem Elbtal is intelligent, focused, and obedient. She has not competed yet, and maybe never will, but she is a great family dog.

Endy is certainly beautiful though...I know the breeder who keeps Xenia, and they are good folks, very knowledgeable about breeding.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1011316/Maja-aus-dem-Elbtal


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## Tobi

I think one of the most impressive sons of Endy is Cain von Frankonia who is titled in KNPV. Very high prey drives, nice grips and has produced a very nice young male himself already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38DLbw8ixck


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> I think this point flew over many people's head, popular studs are often bred to lacking females hoping for overcompensation. That was major problem with Yoschy and Fero, IN HINDSIGHT.....many many of the females were not good genetic matches, and in some cases strengthened negative recessives though they were hoping for other results. These dogs were subsequently bred because they were Fero/Yoschy sons or daughters.....there's a lot to this breeding thing!


*YES! YES! YES! THIS IS WHY I AM SO SO CAREFUL WHERE I GET FERO (AND MINK) THROUGH IN A PEDIGREE!!!!! Now we need to start watching where we get a few other highly popular dogs who are showing up and other highly used offshoots of Fero lines.*


FWIW - this old thread popped up and it was interesting to read it through again....I had lost track of it and had not seen some of it....

It is very interesting that someone from Europe can post info and that info is so objective....would that American's could be so objective and pass on info.....

As far as Javir - again - look at the numbers of females bred, and, like Fero/Yoshey/Timmy/Troll - there are going to be some females bred who are only bred to sell pups from a big name, from marginal females and a few are much more suitable or stronger...as litters accumulate, of course the ones from the good females may show up at a Regional or higher level....As far as being able to be lived with like a normal dog - the culture in teh sport in Germany/Europe - esp with "top competitors" is DIFFERENT there!!!! Dogs are not NOT "furbabies" living as a substitute child...they live in kennels, are worked and are often commodities....that is why it is so frustrating when puppy buyers demand dogs by "big name" dogs....they really do not take this into account and are not prepared for the reality of a dog bred for high prey/high sport markets.

A thread worth reading if you can put aside taking comments personally because many of us have these dogs in our dogs' pedigrees.

Lee


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