# Is's the dog not the line!



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Over a period of time I have noticed a lot of information relating to show line or working line dogs that I feel is inaccurate.

While there are some vague generalizations that can be made about different lines, there are few if any absolutes.

All working line dogs are not crazy monsters that need tons of exercise to keep them from destroying the house and eating all small critters in the neighborhood, like the neighbors Pomeranian.

Not all show line dogs are submissive couch potatoes that have zero drive and no ambition.

The nerve base, health and drives of the individual dog is what tells you it's needs. It also tells you more or less what the dog is capable of.

The lines themselves don't tell you about the dog in front of you.

I don't think it helps to label the dogs just based on their lines.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Good post. I agree.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

100% agree

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I see dogs at training(IPO) and the lines do make a difference. I'm sure they don't for general pet/companions, but when you get into sport, lines do matter. But I never make assumtions, individually, and the foundation training also plays into what is seen on the training field as well.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> The nerve base, health and drives of the individual dog is what tells you it's needs. It also tells you more or less what the dog is capable of.
> 
> The lines themselves don't tell you about the dog in front of you.
> 
> I don't think it helps to label the dogs just based on their lines.


Do you had both a show line and a working line? 

I have one of each and I see a big difference between the two.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Agree with the op. 

I see from another post that people are critiquing the "ornament line". Now we have working, show, pet and ornament lines to refer pet buyers to.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Agree with the op.
> 
> I see from another post that people are critiquing the "ornament line". Now we have working, show, pet and ornament lines to refer pet buyers to.


I'm guessing ornament is the different colors like white and liver? What is the pet line?


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't think he's saying there isn't a difference, I think he's saying you can't put blanket statements on a whole line. You have to look at the individual dog. 


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I'm guessing ornament is the different colors like white and liver? What is the pet line?


LOL, no. Someone actually posted a picture of the 2013 Christmas ornament put out by the GSDCA and people are critiquing the dog in it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> LOL, no. Someone actually posted a picture of the 2013 Christmas ornament put out by the GSDCA and people are critiquing the dog in it.


:rofl:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gsdlover91 said:


> I don't think he's saying there isn't a difference, I think he's saying you can't put blanket statements on a whole line. You have to look at the individual dog.


While "he's saying", *All working line dogs are not crazy monsters that need tons of exercise to keep them from destroying the house and eating all small critters in the neighborhood, like the neighbors Pomeranian.

Not all show line dogs are submissive couch potatoes that have zero drive and no ambition.*

he is going to the extreme descriptions. 
I don't think anyone is saying a working line is what he described above, nor a showline is the description. 
Of course look at the individual, but there are certain traits within lines that breeders DO look at, to make breeding decisions.....it isn't a bad thing!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Do you had both a show line and a working line?
> 
> *I have one of each and I see a big difference between the two*.


In what way? I think my experience may be different than yours in regards to this.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Nigel said:


> In what way? I think my experience may be different than yours in regards to this.


Oh lordy bee, do we really have to go down this road again?? I get having discussions about this, but we've just had like 2 or 3 threads shut down because of showline vs working line. 

OP is talking about people who hang everything on a pedigree or a line....it happens a lot around here. I think balance is everything, pedigree, dogs in front of you, appropriate temperament tests, appropriate conformation, and appropriate health testing....no one will ever agree with what is "appropriate" however. To some "appropriate" is, "my dog can walk down the street and loves kids." To others it's "my dog can handle the pressure in bitework" or "the dog's pedigree is stunning and therefore the dog is perfect" or "I love the color...therefore the dog is perfect." When shopping for my puppy and talking to an unbelievable amount of breeders I was immediately turned off by any that stuck to emphasizing any ONE thing I listed above. I wanted balance in the dog and in the breeder's program/goals....pedigree...conformation...health....temperament....etc....we'll see if I will get that at all lol! But I don't think anyone will ever agree on what is best, now that it is so unbelievably divided.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Nigel said:


> In what way? I think my experience may be different than yours in regards to this.












Other than the obvious, looks, my working line is a lot more stubborn. He will just not give up and while they are both big drama queens my working line is also very stoic. He will not show he is hurting until it is bad.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)




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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Agree with the op.
> 
> I see from another post that people are critiquing the "ornament line". Now we have working, show, pet and ornament lines to refer pet buyers to.


Ha ha that is so funny! Thanks" needed a good laff!

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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Do you had both a show line and a working line?
> 
> I have one of each and I see a big difference between the two.


I own one of each and I might have agreed with this the first couple months after I got Midnite, but he has settled down nicely. They both have the same energy level, same prey drive, and the same work ability. I see more of a difference in male versus female and age....she has matured and has become more serious and did so by the age he's at. He is a goofball. She is now more aloof and he still likes attention from people. The both love kids. They both love to play and she(show line) plays harder most of the time. Neither are couch potatoes, but both are ready to go whenever.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I worked with well over 100 dogs and have owned both lines. There most certainly is a big difference in the lines. Does that mean all fit the mold? Nope! Sure doesn't but general statements can be made.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


>


I've said it before but Sunflowers you crack me up!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

It's the same as breed stereotyping, to me.

Does it tell you everything? No. One would have to be very foolish to believe that "all dogs of line [or breed] X have package characteristics Y." They're living creatures, not widgets off an assembly line.

But does it tell you some _useful_ things? Hopefully, depending on what you want to know.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

German Shepherd: Working vs. Show Lines | Banffyhaus

The German Shepherd Dog - Wunder GSD

German Shepherds German vs American and Working Lines, Von der Otto Dallas


Experts with a lot more knowledge than I have. They see a difference.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> There most certainly is a big difference in the lines. Does that mean all fit the mold?.


You really can't say this because every line has different drive levels. A working line with low whatever drive can be the equivalent of a showline with a high whatever drive. By whatever I mean whatever drive that is bejng compared, for example prey drive. Who makes that mold? As long as whatever line of dog that is in question has work ability it shouldn't matter. A working line might do better in one venue and a showline better in another venue, in the end they all can work and that is breed standard. The GSD's are one breed, but yet some make it feel likes its completely divided.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

gsdlover91 said:


> I don't think he's saying there isn't a difference, I think he's saying you can't put blanket statements on a whole line. You have to look at the individual dog.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You got it gsdlover91.

I have been very clear on what I personally like but I would be offended if every other thread someone had to take issue with my choice of dog.

Myco and Jane, of course there are differences. There are differences between DDR and German working lines too.

I have had both lines and up until Jack the best dog I ever owned was an oops WGSD. I really would like to have been able to talk about her without hearing about her being deficient. She also only cost 50 bucks from a BYB.
Guess I should shoot myself.

The breed standard forum is the place to argue characteristics and what we all like or dislike. Not every other thread where people feel the need to point out what is wrong with this line or that line.

Bad nerves for instance are the result of poor breeding and can be found in all lines. So can health problems. If your dog is a nervous wreck or sickly does it matter which line it came from?


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

you can get great pets from both lines but if someone wanted to do any sort of competition whether its mental or physical, i dont know why anyone would choose a show line. while my experience is limited to a few dogs, i also have owned both lines and do see a HUGE difference even in something like a simple game of tug.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I have had both lines and up until Jack the best dog I ever owned was an oops WGSD. I really would like to have been able to talk about her without hearing about her being deficient. She also only cost 50 bucks from a BYB.
> Guess I should shoot myself.


snicker.... love your sarcasm... Maybe rather than talk differences we should talk about what they have in commen. Every single one I've had from American BYB to my WGSL has come up and burped in my face. They also all tilt their heads. I don't see either of those things with my other non GSD dogs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Oversize!

(Running for cover)


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I've got a show/work mix adult female and I've got a DDR 7 month old male pup. Both require the same amount of exercise. Both are equally active. Both settle nicely in the house. Both have drive, but the DDR pup definitely has more. 

The one difference I've found between the two is the DDR pup has more "oomph" with everything he does, but that's his drive. I tell the show/work to sit and she'll slowly sit, but would probably rather stand. I tell the DDR pup to sit and the ground shakes as he hits the ground while he impatiently waits for another command.

Both make great pets.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

boomer11 said:


> you can get great pets from both lines but if someone wanted to do any sort of competition whether its mental or physical, i dont know why anyone would choose a show line. while my experience is limited to a few dogs, i also have owned both lines and do see a HUGE difference even in something like a simple game of tug.


And there it is, stereotyping. Nothing personal Boomer, I think this what Andy was talking about.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i guess thats sterotyping? to me its common sense. if you are in any type of competition and need a dog that performs well, i would get a dog BRED for performance. why would you do otherwise? show line dogs are great pets but in agility, obeidence, schutzhund, etc there is a better choice out there (working line)


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There's a huge divide between people that do Schutzhund and high level obedience type sports, and then your pet people. So although there are plenty of people on this forum that don't title and still do a lot with their dogs, at the end of the day, many of those people are not experienced enough to truly see the differences between the lines when it comes to drive and all the other fun stuff this forum loves to rip on about.

You guys can deny it all you want, but if you're going to be doing higher level obedience competition...you do have a better chance with a working line. All things being equal, if you had a choice between two pups and all you knew is that one is a working line and the other is a show line...chances are that the working line will have the higher drives necessary for that type of higher level work. I'm not saying a show line can't do it, but it will more than likely take a bit more work/training on the part of the handler and at the end of the day the dog might not truly have that oomph that judges look for when it comes to scoring points and happy working dogs. Lucy Dog's post sums it up nicely...both dogs can do the work, there's just a difference in how its done.

I do laugh at the posts about "what line is best for me" though. People have read the buzz words and then try to decide between them...Czech, DDR, west german, Am SL, WGSL...and they think their dog will fit whatever the stereotypical mold is. But the truth is most pet owners will never be able to tell the difference between the maturity rate of a DDR vs. a West German vs. a SL. Most people don't even get to see their dogs truly mature because they don't give them the opportunity to work under stress and watch that dog go from prey to defense and truly see them grow into an adult.

It takes seeing a lot of dogs, working together, and near each other so that you can compare very quickly. It's the eye test...seeing it is believing it, and the truth is, most people don't get to see it. They compare the dog they had 20 years ago, to the dog they had 10 years ago, to the dog they have today. All pets...never truly tested in a competition, never really taught higher level exercises where the dogs true potential is realized.

As someone that pretty much only does AKC obedience/rally/agility. I really get to see how much drive, and sadly the overall line, makes a difference in each one of those sports. Even when watching a dog heel...you see it. And sure, a great handler can teach any dog to heel perfectly and happily, but many times, we aren't great handlers with decades of experience, and a dog that does something naturally, is much more fun to work with than one that needs to be taught or forced to do an exercise in a certain way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In what showing I have done in Obedience and Rally, I have gotten more placements than not with all my show dogs. Show lines are fine for performance events. I have several titles on Babs, and only one trip into the ring did she not place. Arwen placed every leg for both her titles, first place on each of her CD legs. And I'm a crappy trainer. I wonder what my dogs could do with someone who knew what the heck they were doing.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I just don't get the "working line vs show line" mentality, probably never will. I think it hurts the breed overall. I'm glad I have the dogs I have and support breeders who work towards producing total dogs.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> i guess thats sterotyping? to me its common sense. if you are in any type of competition and need a dog that performs well, i would get a dog BRED for performance. why would you do otherwise? show line dogs are great pets but in agility, obeidence, schutzhund, etc there is a better choice out there (working line)


Don't think that's necessarily true.... I do agility with my SL/WL cross and in our class is a full WL dog the exact same age as mine(they are also both males) and they have very similar performance, drive and enthusiasm. If anything my dog is more calm and focused whereas her dog is VERY reactive(to people and dogs, no one can approach her) and harder for her to control. Granted that may just be a handler issue. But I've seen no difference.... Same with herding, my dog performs just as well as the WL's. We are planning on competing and doing trials and I absolutely do not think my dog being half SL is going to hold him back at all, he is actually very high drive.

Sure a WL could probably go further and be easier to train in IPO but I do not think that applies to every sport.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Also my herding instructor has a GSD who is only one of four GSD's in the country with a specific national herding title(I'm tired and can't remember the exact one ATM) and guess what, that dog is a full SL.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

No one is saying SL dogs can't perform. Check out Alta-Tollhaus SL GSDs. They do all kinds of sports, service work, herding... Many of them have strings of titles. It's not that you will never find a SL doing any activity.

Odds are that if you are competing in anything, a dog specifically bred for competition or work is going to outperform a dog specifically bred with conformation that will win modern day dog shows.

In the end, if you are happy with your dog and its abilities, you have the right dog regardless of what line it is from.

David Winners


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think the owner of the dog has a lot to do with what
type of dog the dog is going to be (well trained, highly
socialized, protector, cuddle dog, sport dog, go-everywhere-
dog, etc) and that goes for pure bred dogs or mutts.

let's have a "don't pick on the SL's day".


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Whiteshepherds said:


> LOL, no. Someone actually posted a picture of the 2013 Christmas ornament put out by the GSDCA and people are critiquing the dog in it.


I found it hilarious. Many others did not, which I also found hilarious.

I recognize to some extent the SL vs WL fight comes down to what people value most in a dog and to a certain extent there's a little bit of elitism involved. There is a lot of elitism when it comes to dogs and dog training period though, its pretty damned pervasive. You see it when you see people in other forums talking about getting working line malinois. Case in point check out this little beauty. http://bayareadogtrainer.wordpress....ican-public-belgian-malinois-look-dont-touch/ 

It can get pretty obnoxious.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> i guess thats sterotyping? to me its common sense. if you are in any type of competition and need a dog that performs well, i would get a dog BRED for performance. why would you do otherwise? show line dogs are great pets but in agility, obeidence, schutzhund, etc there is a better choice out there (working line)


IMO it's people like you who believe showlines are good for nothing except being a 'pet' that further separate this breed. Yeah let's MAKE the showline into a lazy do nothing dog! So then we can further make fun of them.

God what am I THINKING trying numerous sports with my dog? Should probably just give up on all those huh?

This gets really old, really fast.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdlover91 said:


> IMO it's people like you who believe showlines are good for nothing except being a 'pet' that further separate this breed. Yeah let's MAKE the showline into a lazy do nothing dog! So then we can further make fun of them.
> 
> God what am I THINKING trying numerous sports with my dog? Should probably just give up on all those huh?
> 
> ...


Consider the source, where do they draw their experience from to make these kind of generalizations?


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Baillif said:


> Case in point check out this little beauty. Note to the American Public: Belgian Malinois, Look Don’t Touch | Bay Area Dog Trainer
> 
> It can get pretty obnoxious.


Hah! Mals ARE spunky, but not as bad as that article makes em. I knew I was getting a bag of energy when I got a Mal. I didn't do ringsports of any nature, I didn't train her beyond what she showed up with(retired K9). She picked her job(hawking me) and went to that job with Mal-ish ferocity. Easy-pesey really. I kept her mentally stimulated and physically fit. That high drive carbon-edged dog was more than happy to be a couch growth when the situation called for it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's the thing, look at it objectively and not through the eyes of someone getting told their dog isn't as good. I don't get upset when people tell me my dog won't do anything in a show ring...and show lines have a much higher chance of success in a performance sport than working lines do in a show ring!

This isn't about trying sports or just dabbling, it's about the really high levels of competition. Our whole breed will do just fine in performance sports because we'll be competing against many breeds that aren't cut out for that type of work in the first place. So someone that dabbles (like myself) will probably be very successful locally and maybe even regionally, but once you're talking national level, certain lines...just like certain breeds...are naturally going to be more successful in certain venues. Look at agility and the border collie...sure there is probably a GSD out there somewhere that can compete with most of them, but if you really want to excel, that breed gives you a better chance.

We need to not take these discussions so personally, when people generalize, they're not talking about a single dog, they're talking about a group/population that has shown over time to be X. And no one says that outliers don't exist.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've also seen working line people get way more defensive about the "prey driven monsters that need 6 hours of exercise to settle" comments than show line owners get about the "dog can't do squat" comments.

Usually those comments are coming from the new members that have joined and are asking for advice on their future pet and not someone that has been involved in the breed for any extended period of time.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Do you had both a show line and a working line?
> 
> I have one of each and I see a big difference between the two.



Isn't just two dogs a bad sample size to go off of on making a general assumption on two lines though?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

KathrynApril said:


> Isn't just two dogs a bad sample size to go off of on making a general assumption on two lines though?


Did you see the links I posted? I'm not saying anything the experts themselves don't say. I see it up close and magnified because I have them right next to each other. I just saw an article the other day about how there is an actual genetic difference between show line and working line. 
http://sakury.weebly.com/uploads/1/...herd_lines_are_genetically_differen_final.pdf


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have been handling, training and working dogs for 30 years, GSD for 29. Let's just say I have seen and handled a lot of dogs in those years (and I am still a relative newbie compared to people like Anne). While I do mostly sport, my interests are in other areas of work (mostly scent/detection work). Genetics matter. No matter what people want to think, certain lines, and not working Vs. show, but the actual genetics/lines, do matter.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm going to jump in and help beat this horse some more.

Genetics matter. The training matters. Your goals for the dog matter too. 

The only time you run into a problem is when there is incongruity between the three. Dog can't jump a palisade because he doesn't have the genetics or structure for it? That isn't a problem until you want him to do it. You might not _want_ him to have hops like that if you have a fenced in backyard and don't want him leaping over it.

You don't judge the overall value of a dog or a breed line based on only one or two qualities. 

I like to play War Thunder. By the way if you play war thunder or world of tanks any shoot me a PM we can form team GSD. It's this online game WWII fighter plane sim (I use the term sim lightly.) There are basically two types of fighter plane back then the ones that can turn fast as **** and the ones with engines that can climb and maintain speed well. Lots of people assume the fights are won by turning faster and harder and then there are people who use speed and energy fighting tactics to take the fight into the vertical neutralize the fast turning planes advantage and beat them silly. On the flip side if someone in that energy fighting plane got caught at lower altitude or at an energy advantage by the turn fighter there was a pretty good chance hes gonna die to that turn fighter. If you want to do well you have to plan and fight according to your advantage, know what the enemy's advantages were and try to get him to fly to his weaknesses. 

The point I'm trying to make (aside from trying to find war thunder buddies) is that there is a breed line and dog out there for everybody, and they all have their pluses and minuses. 

http://thedogsnobs.com/2013/11/26/p...e-correct-breed-is-important-dont-****-it-up/


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I have been handling, training and working dogs for 30 years, GSD for 29. Let's just say I have seen and handled a lot of dogs in those years (and I am still a relative newbie compared to people like Anne). While I do mostly sport, my interests are in other areas of work (mostly scent/detection work). * Genetics matter. No matter what people want to think, certain lines, and not working Vs. show, but the actual genetics/lines, do matter.*


*
*
I completely agree with the above. Genetics and bloodlines for good or for ill.

Not this line or that line. 

I realized after my last thread that there is no golden middle that all should breed towards. I like the solid nerved Jack of all Trades dog but those who want other things have that right. Jack of all trades will not be good enough for those wanting extreme high scores in IPO or a top conformation dog.

What prompted this thread was thinking about how showlines are often treated on this forum. I realized that if I had joined this board when I had my red and black WGSD who was an awesome dog, I wouldn't have lasted long,

If it were reversed and the main posters were showline folks that loved to imply regularly what monsters working line dogs are, I wonder how many WL owners would stick around.

Sometimes you just have to walk a mile in their shoes. Cause we all love our dogs no matter where they come from.

Baillif: Loved the link you posted.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

As someone who has an ASL, a WGSL, and a WGWL... I agree with Andy (to an extent). 

While some lines do hone in on some specific traits, there's more to look at with a dog than it's line. There's also the individual temperament and personality. Temperament is born into the dog, however Personality develops over the dog's early stages. Many times it can contradict the common blanket statements that are believed by many. Personality can be molded through the breeders practices during their first weeks of life, through their environment, home life/owners, abuse or neglect, etc.

Any line can produce dogs that are stubborn, aggressive, talkative, hyper, high drive, no drive, lazy... and many other traits.

On the other hand... pedigrees and genetics *do* matter, and I think that a HUGE factor to consider when getting a dog. But even then, that's not the only factor that dictates what the dog will be and how they are as an adult. Also, stereotypes are all too often very incorrect.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you want to produce the next Sieger/Siegerin, then you should probably go with a showline dogs with a pedigree of VA dogs. 

If you want to go for the next Grand Victor/Grand Victrix, then you will want the best ASL dogs in your pedigree, and not just names, you need it properly line bred to get the right combination. 

If you want to compete on the National level of Schutzhund/IPO, then, I think you already know what lines and what blood lines are likely to take you where you want to go. You are probably so busy on the field training that you aren't being coaxed into buying a show line dog. 

I think it is kind of silly to suggest that only certain lines would be suitable for upper level competition. People contemplating upper level competition already know what they are comfortable with. The vast majority of dog owners would get enough of anything they need with any of the lines. There are venues where working line dogs are rated in shows for conformation. And conformation shouldn't and probably isn't ignored by working line breeders. 

People who are unhappy with their show line or working line dog may jump into the other camp. I expect it happens where show line people go over to working lines. I know it happens the other way too. And there are still people who have both. I think it has a lot more to do with the temperaments of the humans involved than the dogs, really.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> The vast majority of dog owners would get enough of anything they need with any of the lines.


yepyep

The problem that I personally run into -- and I don't think I'm entirely alone in this -- is that when somebody comes to the board asking "where should I get my next puppy?", well, most of the breeders I'm familiar with are working line breeders, because that's what I personally prefer and spend the most time researching, so those are the ones I know well enough to feel comfortable recommending.

I have seen several quite nice German show line dogs in person, but the closest of those breeders is in upstate New York. If somebody wanted a more local recommendation, I wouldn't be able to give anything based on firsthand knowledge.

I don't know American show line dogs at all, even though those are mostly what I see in the AKC events I attend. Literally the only thing I know about them is that I'm not going to find my personally preferred type of dog in those breeders' programs.

So when people ask for recs, I recommend working line breeders. Not because the other lines wouldn't be good fits for that home, but because I just don't _know_ them.

But the dogs I like -- fast! flashy! smart! driven! -- those are not dogs that the average pet owner is likely to enjoy. I'm drawn toward "trainer's dogs," and most people are not professional dog trainers, nor do they want to be (which is inconceivable to me, but there you have it).

And while my personal bias is to nudge people toward choosing dogs with the _potential_ to excel, just in case they get bitten by the dog sport bug and decide to go into high-level competition after all (because it happened to me! and, as a result, I am reminded every single day of my life that trying to push a less-than-ideal dog to high-level competition is extremely frustrating)... realistically, most of those people aren't going to do more than a few classes for fun and _maybe_ a novice title or two. If that.

In recent weeks, a couple of people have posted asking about local breeders that I would consider "pet line" breeders, in the sense that they don't have any clearly developed program or purpose (as far as I can tell) and the dogs I've seen out of those kennels have been friendly, even-keeled, reasonably healthy (again, as far as I can tell) animals of no particular distinguishing merits. They don't wow me. They don't sparkle in the ring.

But they might well be a better fit for a less demanding home. If you truly just want a pet dog, and nothing else, those breeders might not be bad ones to consider. I'm trying to be a little more mindful of that in expressing my opinions.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> The vast majority of dog owners would get enough of anything they need with any of the lines.


You're right...but I was just trying to give a reason why the separate lines exist and why depending on someone's preferences you get the suggestions you do.

I do hate the fact that someone that says, "I think I might dabble in Schutzhund" automatically gets pointed to a working line. I think unless you've made the conscious decision to dedicate yourself to that sport, you shouldn't lock yourself into a working line.

And this isn't just towards Selzer...and it just came to mind after reading marciel's post. I really hate it when people start recommending breeders on this forum. Mostly because the people that recommend those breeders don't actually know them or have had any contact with the breeder or their dogs. They usually recommend the forum breeders...but only because they've seen their posts enough and the fact that the others have "approved" of that breeder.

I remember a few weeks ago someone asked about breeder recommendations in Illinois. The first person to answer recommended Robin. I know for a fact that first poster has had zero interaction with Robin outside this forum. I know they've never seen her dogs, worked with her dogs, or know anything more than what has been said on this forum. The funny thing was, the OP was down by St. Louis. Robin, for those of you that don't know is all the way on the north side of the state...but still, her name was the first one to come up. Anyways...getting side tracked.

It's true...any of the lines would be 100% fine with getting daily walks, weekly hikes, and possibly entering into a few AKC events here and there. But for the other things, genetics matter. And if your goal is UDX, Och, Mach, or something of that level, I believe you'd still have an easier time with a dog bred for higher level schutzhund work than one bred for the show ring. Is it possible? Absolutely...the nature of the beast makes everything possible. But you'll just probably have an easier time doing it with a dog meant for it.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I agree and disagree. Go me. 

I have always been taught " treat the dog not the xray/bloodwork" but I think it stands for this as well. Look at the dog, not the pedigree. For 90 % of people this is what I say. For those that are active doing sport/work/service with their dogs, they ain't here looking for breeders. The number of people that go online, find a breeder, get dog, and end up training dog to high levels of sport is so minuscule it's funny. 

A large majority of people THINK they want a high level dog. But just like getting a treadmill, cause it will make you take up running, this rarely happens. Those ready and able for high level dogs, don't go to an online community for advice on breeders. 

I have owned pretty much every type of GSD. My very first was an amazing WGSL. A certified SAR dog, got her BH and CGC. just amazing. Perfectly balanced drive, amazing work ethic, solid nerves. So I don't judge. I would take my Hanah back in a second. She was an amazing introduction to a working breed. Actually made me want to do more, get more involved. Had my next dog been my first, I may have found a different breed. 


Do I prefer a look? Yes I do. In fact I jumped on the dark sable big head trend with my current puppy. It's what I wanted, and I see so many snide remarks about them on this board. It annoys me. But I get it. This board is very skewed in one direction. I made an educated decision in my new dog. I know what I have. I know I won't be on national podiums with him.

Every line has their positives and negatives, but denigrating a certain line over and over is dumb. It just continues to breed discontent. My eyes have been opened recently on to ASL dogs. Never been around them, but recently have met some that I found amazing, nice drive, good work ethic, physically sound, working titles. 10 years ago, my mind would not have been open to seeing the positives in them. 

Now, to contradict myself, I do think that if your hope is to do a specific venue, then you look for a breeder that has produced dogs doing well in that venue. So yes lineage does matter. But it is not the only thing someone should look at. 



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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Carriesue said:


> Also my herding instructor has a GSD who is only one of four GSD's in the country with a specific national herding title(I'm tired and can't remember the exact one ATM) and guess what, that dog is a full SL.


 
Alta-Tollhaus Just a Singer


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I have been handling, training and working dogs for 30 years, GSD for 29. Let's just say I have seen and handled a lot of dogs in those years (and I am still a relative newbie compared to people like Anne). While I do mostly sport, my interests are in other areas of work (mostly scent/detection work). Genetics matter. No matter what people want to think, *certain lines, and not working Vs. show, but the actual genetics/lines, do matter.*


This right here.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Those ready and able for high level dogs, don't go to an online community for advice on breeders.


I _kinda_ did, although I guess "ready and able" might be open to dispute. 

But anyway I wound up on this forum because I was looking for more information about what type of GSD would best fit my competition goals. So it does happen, albeit probably not that often.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

martemchik said:


> You're right...but I was just trying to give a reason why the separate lines exist and why depending on someone's preferences you get the suggestions you do.
> 
> I do hate the fact that someone that says, "I think I might dabble in Schutzhund" automatically gets pointed to a working line. I think unless you've made the conscious decision to dedicate yourself to that sport, you shouldn't lock yourself into a working line.
> 
> ...


And when someone goes to one of the "forum" breeders, often enough you get feed back from the buyer and it's generally a positive experience. There are a number of "regulars" with forum breeder dogs posting on their pups progress, makes it a fairly safe route to go for the most part. If the breeders posting here had issues, I doubt they wouldn't be around here long. I guess, my point is, most of the breeders posting here are reputable, I doubt they'd sell someone the wrong pup for their needs, it may give the novice a good starting point for information and perhaps a recommendation to another breeder with the right pup.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LOook at pedigree instead of lines... what is it that you want for your next companion. I see many different pedigree matches that are very nice, but I don't want that type, (too sporty for me/I'm more into WLs)...so instead of working line vs showline how about research what a breeder is actually putting together to make a litter? 
And why are they putting together that match? 
I get tired of reading(mostly on fb) about the well known studs being used over and over because they are well known. But does that dog compliment every bitch he's used with? I highly doubt it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I get tired of reading(mostly on fb) about the well known studs being used over and over because they are well known. But does that dog compliment every bitch he's used with? I highly doubt it.


 
I hate this too! Especially because 9 times out of 10 it's the dog that scored 100/100/100 at the WUSV and based on nothing else. Why? Because the saying you bred to the world champion sells puppies. It has nothing to do with the dog's strengths or weaknesses.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Not even world champion, but the national levels....I know of a couple that are used that I would really want no part of, because I don't want a drive leaker, lower threshold dog to work. Some of the buyers don't look at the whole picture or the future, they look at the past....which is fine, as long as they know what they may be getting into.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> LOook at pedigree instead of lines... what is it that you want for your next companion. I see many different pedigree matches that are very nice, but I don't want that type, (too sporty for me/I'm more into WLs)...so instead of working line vs showline how about research what a breeder is actually putting together to make a litter?
> And why are they putting together that match?
> I get tired of reading(mostly on fb) about the well known studs being used over and over because they are well known. But does that dog compliment every bitch he's used with? I highly doubt it.


Yes! Very much agree.

I thought in the beginning it was all about show/working as well... as I become more involved in this breed and in working venues, you definitely have a better understanding that there is WAY more to it than just working vs. showlines.

I see so many people breeding to the same dogs and I often wonder "why"? Do these dogs have something that will suit ALL these females they are being bred too? My opinion - probably not.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A breeder with championship line dogs is going to be evaluating the puppies as they get older and it is highly doubtful they will sell the pups with the best potential to a nobody in the sport or someone who is just looking for a pet and bragging rights. To get those best pups you need to know people, prove you can title the dogs and compete, or get lucky and find that ultra rare diamond in the rough that blooms late and the breeder just thought he was so so.

You want the best pups? You better cut your teeth.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Nigel said:


> And when someone goes to one of the "forum" breeders, often enough you get feed back from the buyer and it's generally a positive experience. There are a number of "regulars" with forum breeder dogs posting on their pups progress, makes it a fairly safe route to go for the most part. If the breeders posting here had issues, I doubt they wouldn't be around here long. I guess, my point is, most of the breeders posting here are reputable, I doubt they'd sell someone the wrong pup for their needs, it may give the novice a good starting point for information and perhaps a recommendation to another breeder with the right pup.


I know several people who had large problems with some of the recommended and "god-like" breeders on here....it just isn't talked about.....that's the problem. Not saying we should be allowed to "breeder bash" but it's a fine line, and you are only going to hear the good things unless some kind soul decides to PM you their experience. I agree wholeheartedly with Martem....there are some great breeders on here...but there are also ones that I wouldn't get paid to take a pup from that are recommended left and right or putting their own personal ad into every post they make....it's one thing to hear from people who've actually dealt with the breeder, but I'd say 90% of the posters recommending breeders have no experience with them, personally, only what they hear/read on this forum....and the ones that have negative experiences are too worried about the ramifications of stating their experience, even in PM.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Baillif said:


> A breeder with championship line dogs is going to be evaluating the puppies as they get older and it is highly doubtful they will sell the pups with the best potential to a nobody in the sport or someone who is just looking for a pet and bragging rights. To get those best pups you need to know people, prove you can title the dogs and compete, or get lucky and find that ultra rare diamond in the rough that blooms late and the breeder just thought he was so so.
> 
> You want the best pups? You better cut your teeth.


 
Not really, if you have the money for the stud fee you can breed to the dog. I doubt the 1,000 progeny that some of these dogs have all went to top sport homes.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You're talking crap shoot still, and it still assumes you had a female that would compliment the genetics. You're probably right to a large degree. I always wondered how many potential world champs ended up in a kill shelter because their owner thought they were crackheads.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Baillif said:


> You're talking crap shoot still, and it still assumes you had a female that would compliment the genetics. You're probably right to a large degree. I always wondered how many potential world champs ended up in a kill shelter because their owner thought they were crackheads.


Even one is too many!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Nigel said:


> And when someone goes to one of the "forum" breeders, often enough you get feed back from the buyer and it's generally a positive experience. There are a number of "regulars" with forum breeder dogs posting on their pups progress, makes it a fairly safe route to go for the most part. If the breeders posting here had issues, I doubt they wouldn't be around here long. I guess, my point is, most of the breeders posting here are reputable, I doubt they'd sell someone the wrong pup for their needs, it may give the novice a good starting point for information and perhaps a recommendation to another breeder with the right pup.


To add on to what DaniFani said...I don't have a problem with any of the breeders on the forum. I have a problem with the fact that people that have never met them, have never seen their dogs, and have no idea what they actually do except for what they read on this forum...recommend their dogs. If you've had an experience with the breeder, have a dog from them, please scream from the mountain tops how great that dog is and why they should go to them. But if all you know of them is what they've posted, and it generally involves a lot of good knowledge and also advertisements on how great their dogs have been...you shouldn't be recommending them.

I hope none of them take offense to this because there are plenty of breeders on here that I would definitely consider if I was looking for a puppy, but its because I've made my own decision. I'm not coming on here going, I'm looking for dog X in location Y, and then getting a bunch of random people telling me to go to such and such breeder because they've read a bunch of their posts and they seem to know what they're talking about.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

martemchik said:


> To add on to what DaniFani said...I don't have a problem with any of the breeders on the forum. I have a problem with the fact that people that have never met them, have never seen their dogs, and have no idea what they actually do except for what they read on this forum...recommend their dogs. If you've had an experience with the breeder, have a dog from them, please scream from the mountain tops how great that dog is and why they should go to them. But if all you know of them is what they've posted, and it generally involves a lot of good knowledge and also advertisements on how great their dogs have been...you shouldn't be recommending them.
> 
> *I hope none of them take offense to this because there are plenty of breeders on here that I would definitely consider if I was looking for a puppy,* but its because I've made my own decision. I'm not coming on here going, I'm looking for dog X in location Y, and then getting a bunch of random people telling me to go to such and such breeder because they've read a bunch of their posts and they seem to know what they're talking about.


Agreed, didn't mean to come off like breeders shouldn't be here...just annoys me when people recommend something they have no first hand knowledge of...or they think that because there is only positive things to be found it's without a doubt a great breeder....there are some parts to the story that aren't being told...just listen to those you actually have first hand experience...good and bad.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why would anyone base their 'research' on posts by people they don't know? That, IMO is not research but taking shortcuts...and we all know how not doing your homework ends up. I'd never base my decision of buying a pup from a thread I posted on a discussion board. I'd rather go out and see dogs in training(not trialing) to decide on a bloodline/kennel. But that isn't usually easily done, or convenient. Where I train(2 different places) you can see many different dogs/breeds training and people drive several hours to train or meet up with the TD's. They do their research in real time.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Why would anyone base their 'research' on posts by people they don't know?


Probably because they can't ask anybody knowledgeable that they _do_ know.

As I said earlier in the thread, I came to this forum because I was trying to learn more about GSDs and I didn't really know anybody that I could ask in the real world. GSDs are not as common in obedience that they used to be, and I hardly ever see them at all in Rally. Before I came to this board, the two best GSDs I'd seen in person were a White German Shepherd and a Shiloh, and I didn't know anyone who was active in the "real" breed.

_Since_ then, of course, I've spent a lot more time talking to people and seeing the dogs in person and otherwise doing the homework that you're supposed to do according to all the standard advice (and I still don't have a puppy!). But in the beginning? No contacts in the breed. Nada. And I was already active in multiple sports, so I had more people I could ask than most pet owners.

Anyway, I don't disagree with anything that any of you guys has said; I do think it's a bit silly to recommend breeders based solely on forum posts. But it's not hard to understand why people would ask, or why they might have difficulty evaluating whose opinions deserve weight based on the posts in a single thread.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Why would anyone base their 'research' on posts by people they don't know? That, IMO is not research but taking shortcuts...and we all know how not doing your homework ends up. I'd never base my decision of buying a pup from a thread I posted on a discussion board. I'd rather go out and see dogs in training(not trialing) to decide on a bloodline/kennel. But that isn't usually easily done, or convenient. Where I train(2 different places) you can see many different dogs/breeds training and people drive several hours to train or meet up with the TD's. They do their research in real time.


A LOT of people do this....are you really that surprised?? Coming here in the first place is a step above and beyond what most pet people do....craigslist, newspaper, and cardboard "pupie for sal" signs....I just wish sometimes we could be a little more blunt/honest about our experience/opinions on breeders...but I realize there is the "no breeder bashing" for a reason...I just think it can actually work against a potential buyer because they are only going to hear the good stories around here....unless someone wants to go out on a limb and pm them.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> I know several people who had large problems with some of the recommended and "god-like" breeders on here....it just isn't talked about.....that's the problem. Not saying we should be allowed to "breeder bash" but it's a fine line, and you are only going to hear the good things unless some kind soul decides to PM you their experience. I agree wholeheartedly with Martem....there are some great breeders on here...but there are also ones that I wouldn't get paid to take a pup from that are recommended left and right or putting their own personal ad into every post they make....it's one thing to hear from people who've actually dealt with the breeder, but I'd say 90% of the posters recommending breeders have no experience with them, personally, only what they hear/read on this forum....and the ones that have negative experiences are too worried about the ramifications of stating their experience, even in PM.


 I was too vague. There are several breeders here I like (so far), keep tabs on, follow posts and made contact with people and their pups. I know not all breeders posting here are reputable and don't mean to suggest that, my bad. i have received PMs/calls with very helpful information regarding several breeders posting here and some who don't, some good, some bad and at least one very self aggrandizing, so I'm definitely learning little by little who's who which should help loooong down the road when I'm actually in the market myself.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I apologise to Jacks dad for the derailment.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *onyx'girl *
> Why would anyone base their 'research' on posts by people they don't know? That, IMO is not research but taking shortcuts...and we all know how not doing your homework ends up. I'd never base my decision of buying a pup from a thread I posted on a discussion board. I'd rather go out and see dogs in training(not trialing) to decide on a bloodline/kennel. But that isn't usually easily done, or convenient. Where I train(2 different places) you can see many different dogs/breeds training and people drive several hours to train or meet up with the TD's. They do their research in real time.





DaniFani said:


> A LOT of people do this....*are you really that surprised??* Coming here in the first place is a step above and beyond what most pet people do....craigslist, newspaper, and cardboard "pupie for sal" signs....I just wish sometimes we could be a little more blunt/honest about our experience/opinions on breeders...but I realize there is the "no breeder bashing" for a reason...I just think it can actually work against a potential buyer because they are only going to hear the good stories around here....unless someone wants to go out on a limb and pm them.


Not surprised at all. People need to make an effort if they want success...in all things. This society has become so instant, impulsive, incompetent....internet is our friend and our enemy!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i thought DDR is a German working line?



Jack's Dad said:


> You got it gsdlover91.
> 
> 
> I have been very clear on what I personally like but I would be offended if every other thread someone had to take issue with my choice of dog.
> ...


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i thought DDR is a German working line?


DDR is a East German working line. He was saying there is even differences within the working lines, WG, Czech, DDR and so on. 


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

after having both lines you don't know a SL can do
mental or physical competition.



boomer11 said:


> you can get great pets from both lines but
> 
> >>>>> if someone wanted to do any sort of competition whether its mental or physical, i dont know why anyone would choose a
> show line.<<<<<
> ...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

DaniFani -- sometimes the dogs/pups are the body of work , a record over time, just as you may not know a European or Czech breeder personally , or see many of their dogs personally , but there is a record of achievements . 
Do they or do they not hit the target . This includes every line , as I recently pointed out in a thread that featured an American show line . Those breeders chose to do something and were successful .
A good way to get a perspective on a breeder is to visit or ask about a litter or combination from the past and get an open book with contact information so that the perspective buyer can contact ALL , and not just those selected to be positive.
This is what I do . Here is the binder , one to each female, recording her litters. There is an individual sheet for each pup and the new owner with contact information. The person can choose to contact anyone of them .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

DDR is not necessarily working --- once again you have to know the lines .

My motto is select Lines FOR working - (no matter where they come from) and not just "working" lines, because even here there is neglect in being particular in selecting for balance and character and elements necessary for work , just throwing "lines" together -- or too sporty 

There are working lines which I would not include in a breeding program .

so yes it does come down to the dog and not the lines and that DOG should have a strong , reliable record of being what you want and need , forwards and backwards, personally and genetically.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

great point.



carmspack said:


> DDR is not necessarily working --- once again you have to know the lines .
> 
> >>>>> My motto is select Lines FOR working - (no matter where they come from) and not just "working" lines, <<<<<
> 
> ...


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## Darkthunderplotts (Oct 28, 2013)

Maybe I'm off my rocker here but there's a phrase I was told by a 70 year old houndsman that stuck in my head "Papers won't tree game but will sure point you in the direction of a pup that might get it done" Same in the GSD the individual dog will be what they are you up your odds of getting what your after when you find a line that consistently produces what you want.

Reading some of the pedigrees I'm not sure how some of the lines manage to reproduce well but I am used to a lot tighter line breeding to lock in certain traits. It is not uncommon in the hound world to see uncle/niece Grandparent/grandchild half sibling crosses.

I do think the OP had it right and look at the individual and use the lines to get into the correct arena.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you are the end user only the dog before you matters -- if you are a breeder , the genetics matter very much. You can't reproduce "good" if this is a fluke.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

There is definitely a difference. Have a fair amount of show lines doing ipo locally. Both lines can generally go through the motions of obedience, bitework, tracking etc. So if you dont know what your looking at it seems the differences are minute and they arent so different. If you do know what your seeing, you know the dogs and the handlers it quickly becomes obvious which dogs are capable of real work and which are not. There are outliers in both lines but generally the difference is significant.
Last week I saw a SL/WL line police K9 doing some bitework. He was very strong and real on the bite. However that dog is a great example of a solid enduser dog and far from the norm unfortunately.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There is definitely a difference. Have a fair amount of show lines doing ipo locally. Both lines can generally go through the motions of obedience, bitework, tracking etc. So if you dont know what your looking at it seems the differences are minute and they arent so different. If you do know what your seeing, you know the dogs and the handlers it quickly becomes obvious which dogs are capable of real work and which are not. There are outliers in both lines but generally the difference is significant.
> Last week I saw a SL/WL line police K9 doing some bitework. He was very strong and real on the bite. However that dog is a great example of a solid enduser dog and far from the norm unfortunately.


If you are basing this observation on dogs in a certain locale, it is highly probable that you are seeing a number of variations for the same basic lines, even if the people are getting their dogs from different breeders, the breeders often work together with the same studs, and buying dogs from each other, that dogs in one general area might not give you an accurate picture of the entire lines.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If I am looking at a prospect, a puppy, for SchH or real work and future breeding I am going to go to the lines I know consistently produce these types of dogs. Genetics matter. If I am looking at a young dog for something other than breeding than the individual dog is what is important. Of course I would still tend to gravitate towards the lines I know consistently produce what I what I want. 

If my goal was a nice family pet that maybe I can play in some sports with than I would find a breeder who has consistently produced what I want. Their experience in choosing and placing the right pups in the right homes would matter far more than the lines of the pup.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

selzer said:


> If you are basing this observation on dogs in a certain locale, it is highly probable that you are seeing a number of variations for the same basic lines, even if the people are getting their dogs from different breeders, the breeders often work together with the same studs, and buying dogs from each other, that dogs in one general area might not give you an accurate picture of the entire lines.


Nope they are from all over. People here seem to like importing as much as they like buying locally. For example a Czeck import male about 2 years old, brought over here not to long ago. Beautiful dog, is on the sleeve but as is typical for SLs poorer grip slower entrys, lower drive, not sharp but definitely can be hesitent at times. I have no doubt the training team here will clean a lot of that up and he will look decent when he trials and titles. He will also likely get a lot of breedings and make plenty of pups. 
He is pretty good for what you generally see from the SLs...thats the point whats good for SLs is considered mediocre to poor for an average working line. 

Id keep him as a pet or to fool around at the local level but if I wanted something for real work or sport potential it wouldnt be him. He is very handsome though, as GSDs go.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, yes the lines in which a dog comes from do matter.. You can definitely see some traits, consistency in those lines/dogs in a pedigree and what they bring to the table..

Yes you do have to look a the dog in front of you... But genetics do play a huge part..


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I should probably also mention that male will look better in his bitework then 90% of the VA dogs at Kassel this year..


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Over a period of time I have noticed a lot of information relating to show line or working line dogs that I feel is inaccurate.
> 
> While there are some vague generalizations that can be made about different lines, there are few if any absolutes.
> 
> ...


False. Its genetics first. then differences between individuals. Even in the lines there are subtleties. I have two working lines that are from different blood lines. They are both true to their own blood lines.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

what is an enduser dog


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

an end user is the person who needs to have a dog serve a particular purpose , whether it be a companion or sport dog or something specialized -- but it goes no further , not for breeding -- so only the dog passing the aptitude tests for suitability matters - not the sire , the dam , the litter mates, only the dog that will be put into use (but not expected to reproduce those qualities) (no breeding).


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The term makes it sound like you are just looking at a dog as a commodity


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## Suesse (Jul 14, 2013)

Mine seems to be very smart but can get very "jacked up". Comes from a working line but a litter mate is calm and relaxed, unlike mine.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Darkthunderplotts said:


> Maybe I'm off my rocker here but there's a phrase I was told by a 70 year old houndsman that stuck in my head "Papers won't tree game but will sure point you in the direction of a pup that might get it done" Same in the GSD the individual dog will be what they are you up your odds of getting what your after when you find a line that consistently produces what you want.



Yes and no, I say that because, a hound or a lab, they are worked in a real world scenario. Unless it is a K9, GSD's are worked on a model. Very significant difference between a sport or working dog and a GSD/herding dog in terms of their working ability. Thus a terrific variable. A hard-mouthed lab is not going to be re-bred, not by anyone who is serious about their sport - because a part of that sport is enjoying the spoils. Different with a Shepherd. A hound who will not go to ground - nobody will re-breed or continue that bloodline. Yes, the GSD competes in sport, but it has no true merit. I would wager a guess that between 7-10% of GSD's actually work in the venues they compete in, with working and sport dogs, it's more around 60-65%. Also why you see less discrepancy in the show ring. Real working dog breeders, don't care what Westminster says, they care if the dog produces real results. The dog can be as pretty as a picture, if it doesn't fetch up or does so to the detriment of the kill/game, it's useless.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Darkthunderplotts said:


> I do think the OP had it right and look at the individual and use the lines to get into the correct arena.


Yeah but that's exactly what's being discussed...the advice given just to go into whatever arena.

A show line dog would have no problem being in the pet arena. A show line would have no problem in the AKC arena. A show line would have no problem in MOST arenas. Like its been said...its probably not going to beat your highest level competitors from the working side of things, but it will surely hold its own and be able to do what 99% of people out there would ask of it.

If you're on the forum for a while, you'll notice how much working lines are pushed on people. Just the statement of "I like to hike sometimes" gets people answering with, "well then you want a working line for sure!" I mean seriously...I've never met a dog that isn't up for a hike out in the woods. I swear depending on what side of the coin you're on there are two types of GSD...one that bounces off walls if its not worked for 8 hours a day, and one that lays on the couch and doesn't want to move except to eat and relieve itself.

OP is correct...way too much weight is put on the "line" the dog comes from and not the actual pedigree. But the problem is that its too hard for the average person to really dive into and understand each individual line or what a grandsire or great grandsire brings to the table. So those people (including myself) start at the more generic line and then try to find a breeder that seems to know what they're doing. The worst thing that happens though is when someone asks about a dog that is just able to do a small amount of physical exercise and for some reason they're automatically told to discount a large part of the GSD population and a bunch of very good breeders.


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## Darkthunderplotts (Oct 28, 2013)

ozzymama said:


> Yes and no, I say that because, a hound or a lab, they are worked in a real world scenario. Unless it is a K9, GSD's are worked on a model. Very significant difference between a sport or working dog and a GSD/herding dog in terms of their working ability. Thus a terrific variable. A hard-mouthed lab is not going to be re-bred, not by anyone who is serious about their sport - because a part of that sport is enjoying the spoils. Different with a Shepherd. A hound who will not go to ground - nobody will re-breed or continue that bloodline. Yes, the GSD competes in sport, but it has no true merit. I would wager a guess that between 7-10% of GSD's actually work in the venues they compete in, with working and sport dogs, it's more around 60-65%. Also why you see less discrepancy in the show ring. Real working dog breeders, don't care what Westminster says, they care if the dog produces real results. The dog can be as pretty as a picture, if it doesn't fetch up or does so to the detriment of the kill/game, it's useless.


 I never would have thought the breeding stock of the work lines would be that low of a percentage for actual work. I am new to shepherds so I will defer to the more knowlegable members of the board, my hounds yeah if they don't work in the real world scenario as in I unsnap the leash and they don't head into the timber and go find and bay the game they will NOT get bred they have to be able to do it alone or in company with as many as 6 or 7 others when hunting big game truck to tree all facets of the pursuit. Maybe I will just sit back and watch a while for now and see what the common problems are I'm going to have to find a mentor to hang out with for a bit I know a guy who's got hounds and shep's unfortunately he's in WV. So evening chats in rockers on the front porch are not in the picture hmm so many questions, another day


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Darkthunderplotts said:


> I never would have thought the breeding stock of the work lines would be that low of a percentage for actual work. I am new to shepherds so I will defer to the more knowlegable members of the board, my hounds yeah if they don't work in the real world scenario as in I unsnap the leash and they don't head into the timber and go find and bay the game they will NOT get bred they have to be able to do it alone or in company with as many as 6 or 7 others when hunting big game truck to tree all facets of the pursuit. Maybe I will just sit back and watch a while for now and see what the common problems are I'm going to have to find a mentor to hang out with for a bit I know a guy who's got hounds and shep's unfortunately he's in WV. So evening chats in rockers on the front porch are not in the picture hmm so many questions, another day


The major difference is that hound hunting is asking the dog to do very natural behaviors. Competing in sport or doing patrol work involves many behaviors that are unnatural for the dog. This means the dog must possess the drives to do the work, like your hounds, along with the biddable nature to accept many unnatural situations and also have compliance with the handler.

David Winners


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## Akyah (Aug 12, 2011)

That's not really true. 
While ALL German Shepherds love to run, play and be with their loved ones, they are not all bred for the same purposes and therefore are not so much alike. 
Disposition is individual but can be enhanced (or watered down!) by toying with genetics. 

Working line German Shepherds (unlike show) are bred specifically for temperament and a higher (working) drive. They want to get out there and work. They want to have a purpose each day, aside from sitting around in the house and watching life go by. 

Show dogs are bred with a purpose too. Far more focus is spent on the animal's laid back (not so driven) nature and their physical characteristics. Characteristics worthy of a blue ribbon. 
While both can make for great family pets , they DO have genetic differences, some of which enhance certain qualities that may/may not be favored by potential owners. By the time their individual personalities really show, the animals are mature so if the dog is does not possess the traits that you had in mind, you needed to find a dog that was bred with characteristics that you're looking for. Nothing worse than an owner having a dog for a year or two, allowing the animal to bond with the family then deciding that the animal is either too much for them to handle...or just not enough! The animal always pays the price for those (human) mistakes. Mistakes that could easily have been avoided.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Akyah said:


> That's not really true.
> While ALL German Shepherds love to run, play and be with their loved ones, they are not all bred for the same purposes and therefore are not so much alike.
> Disposition is individual but can be enhanced (or watered down!) by toying with genetics.
> 
> ...


And of course this all comes down to the individual breeders. The ones that know how to avoid mistakes are respected and known for their responsibility in doing what is best for the breed. If only the tables were turned and the good ones outweighed the others.


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Yeah but that's exactly what's being discussed...the advice given just to go into whatever arena.
> 
> A show line dog would have no problem being in the pet arena. A show line would have no problem in the AKC arena. A show line would have no problem in MOST arenas. Like its been said...its probably not going to beat your highest level competitors from the working side of things, but it will surely hold its own and be able to do what 99% of people out there would ask of it.
> 
> ...


Could not agree more with this. I didn't need to look to a working line dog in order to get an active companion. At the end of the 12-mile AD, Discoe was ready to go another trip around the pond, even after just having finished her BH routine. And that's how she's always been. Whatever we finish, she's ready for the next. If I even look like I'm getting ready to do something, she's up and ahead of me, trying to predict my next move. She has that drive for work and purpose, just like a German Shepherd should, regardless of line. The division of the lines is unnecessary and damaging, in my opinion. Why can't every dog have it all? 
Don't answer that...I already know.


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