# Toe in the water - help us jump in! :)



## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

For the past several weeks, I've been feeding Luther (GSD ~85 lbs) and Otto (Mix-Breed ~70 lbs) raw with their kibble (Orijen - LBP for Luther who is 1 year old & Adult for Otto who is 2). Both are in good weight and health. The current menu is:

Otto: 1 cup Orijen and ~4 oz raw hamburg in am
1/2 cup Orijen and ~12 oz chicken leg quarter in pm

Luther: 1 1/2 cups Orijen and ~4 oz raw hamburg in am
1 1/2 cups Orijen and ~12 oz chicken leg quarter in pm

Luther doesn't always finish all his kibble (especially in the pm when he gets a pretty big bunch of chicken quarter) and I just let him eat what he wants and then take it up after about 20 minutes or so. (He eats in his crate)

The dogs are thrilled and so am I. They LOVE raw. Luther tends to be a picky eater, but always finishes whatever raw is in front of him. Poops are terrific. 

We only have our refrigerator freezer, but are lucky that our local grocery store regularly carries chicken leg quarters in a 10-lb bag for $4.90 and we can buy 6-7 lbs. of hamburger for 1.99/lb, so I can shop for them weekly.

Today I bought chicken livers and will begin to add a small amount of this as OM. I feel pretty confident about it as the chicken leg quarters we get often include tails and organs. Once that is going well, the plan is to add green tripe.

The thing that is holding me back from abandoning the kibble altogether and going all-raw is the fear that I will miss some nutrients that they really need.

I am not convinced that veggies are necessary - but am wondering about vitamins?, salmon oil?, yogurt? Should I look to add other meats? If they're eating chicken quarters, do they really need necks or backs?

In other words - I am somewhat tentative about this - where would you experienced raw feeders go from here?


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

I am in no way what you would call experienced, however I can tell you that as a new raw feeder that I learned so so so much from this http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306333&page=1#Post306333
it is listed as "OUR Dogs menus" under the BARF/raw feeding category. It is very informative and will keep you busy reading for a while. Also, you learn so much from everyone else's questions in this BARF/raw section. . I have been feeding my 3 GSDs raw for about 3 weeks now, after about 6 weeks of 50/50 kibble to raw. I love feeding RAW and wish I would have known about it 10 years ago when I got my first dogs.
Good luck and yay for raw!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

You definitely want to include different kinds of meat. This ensures that your dog is getting the benefits from each different type... supplements, from what I can understand, are a more debated topic and really depends on what you decide after doing ample research. Like little red said... go to the thread above, it's AMAZING!

It's encouraged to add as much variety as possible... chicken, beef, venison, rabbit, fish (check out this thread to double check what kind of fish you can feed)... I can't even think of anything else. Just check out the above thread, it'll help a ton!

I still feed Jerzey kibble in the morning because I don't really have the resources (I, too, only have the freezer that is attached to my fridge) to go 100% raw. Also, if she ever needs to be watched for me it would be easier for her to still be on kibble as an alternative to those people that don't feel comfortable throwing a slab of chicken in her bowl. Haha. 

I hope you can find all the info you need! Good luck!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Thank you for the links. I'll get to researching some more! Good thought, JerseyGSD, to keep the kibble for one meal. We don't leave them often, but you're right - a caretaker may not want to mess with it.

For now, I'll work on introducing new meats and get back to the research!


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MartieThe thing that is holding me back from abandoning the kibble altogether and going all-raw is the fear that I will miss some nutrients that they really need.


When I started I felt the same as you above and thought to myself that if dog food could be formulated to meet nutritional needs then surely I could design a diet to meet those same needs. So then I learned what those needs were and what was in the foods I was choosing to feed and compared the two.

I detailed this here, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428679&page=2#Post428679


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

Natalie, I re-read your thread (listed above) and must thank you for it. I read it about a month ago, but now read with new eyes since we have gone raw. Excellent info and such a help to us new raw feeders!!!!! You are awesome.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Natalie,

Your spreadsheet idea is a great one... I just wish I could get all that math settled correctly in my head. I learned excel in high school but, man, I totally cannot remember how to do it! Can't someone just make a program for us non-math minded raw feeders that we can download or something?! Haha.


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## gretta8994 (Mar 26, 2009)

hello,
my name is heather and i am new to this site. i have been feeding my 2 gsds a raw diet for about 2 years now. i got a lot of my info on yahoo groups raw feeding sites . ( hope its ok to rec other sites) . i feed about 2lbs of meat/bones a day. i try to follow a whole prey model as best i can. my dogs eat chicken, turkey, pork ,lamb , venison ,tripe etc. i don't think its a good idea to feed kibble and raw mixed together. it is my understanding that kibble takes more time to process thru the gi tract and by feeding raw with the kibble you are slowing the process time down and increasing the risk of sickness from the bacteria that is on the raw meat. just a thought. i do feed kibble about once a month but i never mix in raw. i do not feed veggies as i believe that dogs don't need them. they prefer meat!!! hope this was helpful.
heather


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Thank you all! I have joined the Yahoo Group (waiting for moderator approval) and Natalie, I LOVE your approach. I've been searching around the net some more and found that the 2006 recommendations are now online in a pdf format at http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf. The whole book sells for over $200 so hopefully I can glean what I need from this brochure.

Will keep you posted!


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Your link isn't working but I believe I know what you are referring too and I think that it had some confusion and perhaps some inaccurate info in it. Let me try and find some more info on that for you.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: natalie559Your link isn't working but I believe I know what you are referring too and I think that it had some confusion and perhaps some inaccurate info in it. Let me try and find some more info on that for you.


Thanks, Natalie. I don't know why it isn't working, but if you go to http://dels.nas.edu then select "Briefs and Booklets", then select "Life Sciences and Ecology", then select "Your Dog's Nutritional Needs" - it's there. It does have pages out of order, but I just printed it and rearranged them.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Okay so I remembered reading about the problem with this booklet on another group, yahoo k9kitchen. I found the list owners response and received permission to cross post it to here:

"Regarding the link you saw http://dels.nas.edu/banr/petdoor.html :

This is an old brochure that's been on the Net for about 2 years. It's incorrect in many ways, and doesn't reflect the NRC book. I've posted to the list about this a number of times, but for those who missed it or want it explained again, here goes.

I called NRC to find out why there were so many discrepancies. However, please appreciate that NRC isn't only scientists. This is an organization that has office staff, etc. The website people aren't working with scientists, and the goof-up is on their end, not the science part







I called so many times and go such a run-a-round from the office staff, that I gave up trying to get this corrected on behalf of those of us who would like some consistency. Instead, I called Dr. Kallfelz ( he worked on the mineral portion of the numbers) and was reassured that the published numbers in the book haven't changed.

As to the 2003 numbers, please know that these were never meant to be published and that there wasn't an outcry from the scientific community opposing them. Rather, the numbers were presented as a start to round table discussions before arriving at the final numbers of 2006. A global community of scientists came together, so obviously, the first presentation wasn't likely to also be the last one. Frustrating as this was for all of us at the time, the end result was worth the wait.

Monica Segal - AHCW"


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