# Sticky  Prey monkeys?



## Blitzkrieg1

So there has been a lot of discussion on here about dogs with an abundance of prey drive or "prey monkeys". 
This brings to mind a question? If the prey drive is coupled with a strong nerve base is this really such a bad thing? 

What brings this to mind is discussion elsewhere in which Mike Suttle showed some video of dogs he was testing. In most cases the dogs showed no defence/civil aggression despite taking enormous amounts of pressure while on the bite. Infact they clearly remain in an elevated state of drive.

He also mentioned that he noticed the dogs that tended to be higher on the defensive/civil end of the spectrum tended to ultimately fall apart when truly pressured. 
He characterized these dogs as social, possessive, high object drive and strong nerves.

If you watch the vids the dogs are what many would call prey monkeys, high pitched barking/screaming, lightning fast entries followed by intense biting behaviors. No growling, shifting on the bite, just a dog biting in prey and fighting well on the bite.

I have 3 such dogs at my local club all males. 2 are littermates very strong nerves great biting behavior the 3rd is a 4 yr old male sch3 also strong nerves and biting behavior. 

I have seen all these dogs take pressure that most would cringe at and nothing fazes them or removes their desire to bite. The challenge faced by their IPO handlers is that nothing fazes the dogs at all, thus creating the strong deep barking and the "serious" appearance in protection is difficult. 
Yet the dogs will bite you no doubt about that. 

The 4 yr old male loses points for his high pitched barking keeping him in the 280s. There have been offers made for the younger males by local PDs so they may be headed towards a real work situation if the handlers decide to sell. 

So perhaps the perception on here that "preymonkeys" or whatever you want to call them are useless for work needs to be revisited.


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## Baillif

Prey drive dogs are really where it's at IMO. I prefer them to bite with a "no way I'm coming off this edge." I don't think dogs should be worked in defense unless they're lacking that edge and need it to send them over the top towards becoming truly great. Otherwise you're somewhat running a risk of creating a potential time bomb dog that decides to snap to relieve perceived pressure. Being able to easily push a dog into defense is IMO a fault on the part of the dog. Should qualify I'm talking about sport dogs btw.


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## GatorDog

For sport dogs, a prey monster will exhibit the awesome behaviors for sport. You can train them to show more aggression through prey behavior even. But in terms of what I personally want, I would rather have the dog bark at the man than at the sleeve. When the helper throws the sleeve to the ground and steps away from it, I want my dog to follow the man and not just stare at the dead sleeve on the ground and bark. Especially in IPO, I would much rather have my dog show active aggression in the blind while barking than a squeaky high pitched prey bark. It's just my own personal preference. Maybe because my female is small and a prey monster herself, but is pretty balanced with some good aggression too. And I'd rather see her be able to work confidently in her aggression where she should than revert to prey.

I think a lot of people would be surprised at what their dog would do when the helper teases them in prey, then tosses the sleeve across the field. Watch how many of those dogs will turn their back to the helper and continue to bark at that sleeve. Yes, there are some dogs that will stay barking at the helper and bite whatever is presented, but I think more often than not, the handler will be surprised by the dogs reaction.


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## Baillif

Sleeve chasing has more to do with training than what drive the dog bites in. You can have dogs give live bites out of prey easily. You can have them manhunt out of prey easily. Some wont necessarily have the drive edge or experience to stick it out in a real brawl but the good ones do.


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## mycobraracr

GatorDog said:


> For sport dogs, a prey monster will exhibit the awesome behaviors for sport. You can train them to show more aggression through prey behavior even. But in terms of what I personally want, I would rather have the dog bark at the man than at the sleeve. When the helper throws the sleeve to the ground and steps away from it, I want my dog to follow the man and not just stare at the dead sleeve on the ground and bark. Especially in IPO, I would much rather have my dog show active aggression in the blind while barking than a squeaky high pitched prey bark. It's just my own personal preference. Maybe because my female is small and a prey monster herself, but is pretty balanced with some good aggression too. And I'd rather see her be able to work confidently in her aggression where she should than revert to prey.
> 
> I think a lot of people would be surprised at what their dog would do when the helper teases them in prey, then tosses the sleeve across the field. Watch how many of those dogs will turn their back to the helper and continue to bark at that sleeve. Yes, there are some dogs that will stay barking at the helper and bite whatever is presented, but I think more often than not, the handler will be surprised by the dogs reaction.



Nailed it! I'm seeing very little active aggression in the IPO dogs. You're example with throwing the sleeve is a good one. We did this recently to a dog. The dog kept barking at the sleeve while the helper walked clear around and started tapping the handler on the shoulder. Where was the dog? Fixated on the sleeve. 

The high pitched prey bark, can also be a training issue. Puppies get started at 8 weeks with rag work/ flirt pole then worked all the way through. They never get a chance to mature and develop any other drives. People tend to not wait until dogs are older anymore before bringing puppies out. So all they learn is this prey bark. The trend also seems to be only working puppies/young dogs in prey. I prefer a balanced approach. A good dog can be brought up developing more than just prey drive.


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## G-burg

mycobraracr~ you seem to have a good head on your shoulder when it comes to working dogs.. 

Just wanted to say this.. The fixated on the sleeve can also be a training issue.. especially when the dogs are taught that at a young age!


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## crackem

It's very often a training issue and it's not that I care a whole lot. The standard has ranges, physical and mental. A strong prey dog with good thresholds and nerves can be every bit as important to the breed as one that isn't. But as they say, "prey bites don't hurt"  you hear the bad guys say that all the time. LOL

People can talk about "the old days" when dogs weren't worked young and there was more pressure and the picture on trial day was a lot different in terms of how the dog looked, as it should have been.

Today?? there is a lot more precision, and people can say what they want about the dogs back then, i they looked so strong and "hard" and on "edge" because that's the way people trained and you could get away with it. I don't however think the best back then were much different than the best today other than the way they were trained.

My dog needs to be active in the blind. I'd prefer good aggressive barking. Now give me a helper within 5 hours drive I can work with to maintain that over 4-6 years of trialing  I find out about dogs in training. When it's learned to have control and aggression in a blind and I can walk it around and into a corner and then come down on it hard, how does it respond? Now I know about my dog.

How does my dog look after its 5th SchH III trial and years of training and a few thousand hold and barks in a blind?? well if he's any good, he probably knows what's going on by now and his bark wont' be as serious at 7 as it was at 3. Is he less of a dog? or did I just run out of ways to keep his "edge" after 4 years of trialing?

and you can get focus on a man and good barking thru prey with really good dogs. To keep and maintain aggression is a fine line and takes a good dog along with a good helper. For some if they know what their dog is already and they don't have the helper to maintain it, they just use what works. IS the dog less because of it and how it looks on trial day?

Trials are what they are, you can prove your training thru them. I believe I've said it before, you learn about the dogs in training.


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## carmspack

ask "If the prey drive is coupled with a strong nerve base is this really such a bad thing?"

answer -- no problem , a dog with a strong nerve base can switch into the other drives without loosing his confidence and may increase in power .
the dog without the strong nerve base who is able to over ride , temporarily , through prey excitement will loose that confidence , back down , run off , or go into that zone out of panic where he appears strong (but isn't) and can not be directed or controlled. In essence the prey monkey goes ape .

further --- the difficulty is to discover whether the high prey is due to high drives , found naturally , and balanced by equally high drive resources in active aggression / fight , and controllability, OR whether the prey drive that you see is a learned behaviour.

question/point " high pitched barking/screaming, lightning fast entries followed by intense biting behaviors"

answer --- that describes the Thuringian , although in extreme --- bet you anything that if you took the pedigree and looked at it this portion of the ancestry of the breed would be abundant -- too much 
That screaming can be before there is "action" and noise along the entire exercise -- this is stress , the dog can't cap , is over the top , on the edge of control 

question/point "great biting behavior" and "The 4 yr old male loses points for his high pitched barking keeping him in the 280s"

answer ---- there is so much more to a dog than the biting behaviour . I would like judges to access social behaviour more --
and the 4 year old did not just loose 20 points more or less for high pitch barking , the judge (s) saw other behaviour that was concomitant , nerve , loss of focus , something not desirable.

don't know any PDs looking for dogs at the local sports field --- they don't want sleeve training, most prefer no bite work which they will have to undo. Interesting .


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## hunterisgreat

I want nothing to do with an all prey dog. That being said, I want very high prey drive, balanced with very high aggression. The nerve strength is needed to keep the aggression under self-control and only used appropriately. 

The problem with a dog that works in all prey in real life, is that prey is a blinding, lustful, indulgent state of mind for the dog. They can appear courageous or hard simply because the state of prey blinds them to what is going on. When something negative happens in the real world that is able to pierce that wall of prey drive, the dog suddenly comes out of prey and is forced to work in defensive drives. If the prey monster is never trained in anything but prey, you cannot say much about what its defensive side will look like.

For example, I can train a prey monster to bite someone for real, and get them to do it when its "for real", but if the aggressor were to say... stab the dog in the side with a knife, the immense pain stimuli will knock that prey drive down... if the dog had little defensive/aggression that will likely be a disengagement. The dog with strong aggression will work through the pain stimuli. A dog with ideal aggression will fight *even harder*. You can see the same sort of thing in training when a dog gets jammed, a paw stepped on, a really hard tongue/lip bite and they disengage and are hesitant to re-engage. An ideal PP dog in that scenario will keep engaging

Just my two cents


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## Chip Blasiole

Blitzkrieg,
Since I was part of that discussion on the WDF, I'll add my two cents worth. Regarding the dogs seeing the sleeve instead of the man as prey, part of the original discussion was that this type of dogs was described as having non-classical prey drive, in which, genetically, they tend to see the man as prey and not the equipment. This trait is not related to training or civil aggression. Also, the concept of gameness was discussed, with these dogs showing behavior toward man, similar to what a game bred dog might show toward a dog or another animal. The quality of anger or defensive aggression is not there and the man is the object of the prey drive. Also, the dogs discussed are KNPV Mals and DS's, which could have some bull and terrier blood in them somewhere along the line. The discussion mentioned this type of dog is rare, and IMO, rarer in the GSD. Re: the Thuringian lines, that is an interesting question, as the breeds of Mal, DS, and GSD might have had closer roots 100 years ago.


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## DaniFani

Chip, you have a link to that discussion? I'm a member of that forum, can't find the thread.

Blitz, so glad you've started this thread. I've really wanted to talk about these "high prey" dogs. Anyone around here that mentions they have a dog with high prey, seems to be met with talk equating it to a dog with no civil drive. 

I've seen one dog with extreme high prey, and high defense, and high nerve threshold. Most helpers could not push him into defense. His bark was "deep," even in prey. His grip was killer, control was awesome, just an awesome dog (he's a top stud dog right now for his breed). 

So what about dogs with high prey, but high nerve and pain thresholds, that just don't seem to take most decoys seriously? Sounds like a fine dog to work to me. 

I also wonder about what baillif said about working a dog in defense all the time. Defense is stressful, right? Wouldn't it be better if the preferred drive is prey (by the dog), but it can switch nicely to defense? I also don't think all prey barks are "screaming" but I see lots of rotties worked, they don't really have a "screaming" bark.

I saw a dutchie worked on a table that switched beautifully between the two drives. That seems ideal to me, balanced and able to switch. So many seem to really love that their dogs are so defensive/civil. I'm not picking on that, I'm just curious as to why? Why would we want civil/defense to be the dog's default? Honestly just curious and trying to learn. I would think that a dog that HAS defense is good, but his nerves are high so that he doesn't have to switch into defense very often.

Another question, what about dogs that people say "love the fight." I do believe this exists, I just would like to hear more about this. Is it really the "fight" or is it the "*game* of the fight?" That they love? Does the dog truly LIKE being in defense, or does it like this game of "fight" with the decoy. How can a dog *like* being defensive (and in turn stressed or feeling it needs to defend itself?

I know I asked a lot of questions, but I really hope someone will take the time to talk it out with me. I've been thinking about this for awhile.

PS: I also agree that a lot of sleeve guarding can be due to training. If the helper/decoy makes a point to NOT let that happen, I think it can be curtailed. I've seen it both created and made extinct, although I think it is created a LOT...going back to Onyxgirl pointing out people trying to train helpers better in that other thread. Helpers need to not create that to begin with, or when they see it starting, start training against it (obviously some dogs will just default to it).


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## hunterisgreat

DaniFani,

A dog that has very strong nerves does not mean it does not "need" defense or would chose to work in prey. A dog with extremely strong nerves can (and in my opinion it is desirable) choose to work in aggression (as in, not a fear induced defensive drive, but an active forward defensive desire to fight/beat the helper). I don't lump all forms of defense into "defense". There are atleast two clear types... actual defensive drive and the percieved need to defend itself, and forward/active defense, or what I call aggression, which is the *desire* to be offensive... its not "in self defense", its what an MMA fighter experiences when he fights. A desire and love to be dominate and overpower/control ones opponent. This is something deeply rooted in the male of pretty much all species.


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## DaniFani

hunterisgreat said:


> DaniFani,
> 
> A dog that has very strong nerves does not mean it does not "need" defense or would chose to work in prey. A dog with extremely strong nerves can (and in my opinion it is desirable) choose to work in aggression (as in, not a fear induced defensive drive, but an active forward defensive desire to fight/beat the helper). I don't lump all forms of defense into "defense". There are atleast two clear types... actual defensive drive and the percieved need to defend itself, and forward/active defense, or what I call aggression, which is the *desire* to be offensive... its not "in self defense", its what an MMA fighter experiences when he fights. A desire and love to be dominate and overpower/control ones opponent. This is something deeply rooted in the male of pretty much all species.


Huh. Interesting, thanks. I didn't mean that a dog with strong nerves wouldn't "need" defense. Defense is one of the core necessities to all life in all species (reproduction, food, defense/survival). I was asking more about a dog that goes into defense *faster* than a dog that will prefer prey for a while.

So, how do you tell the difference between a dog in "self defense" and a dog fighting out of a "desire" to be offensive? Couldn't choosing to be offensive be considered a "game" to the dog? If he was truly "serious" it would be out of self defense/fear of harm, right? Not that the bite will feel much different, just curious how you tell.


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## Chip Blasiole

It is under the police/military forum on WDF and the thread is "buying/selling." One point the breeder was making was that the lines he now breeds for police dogs, including dual purpose dogs, have individuals that are extreme in prey, very strong nerves, social, and really lack civil aggression and have an extremely high threshold for defensive aggression. He mentioned these dogs are not good for perimeter/property protection because they are so social. Based on the video I saw, it didn't look these dogs could be pushed into defensive aggression. Some would call it fight drive. Others referred to non-classical prey drive and gameness in an effort to capture the trait or traits motivating these dogs to stay in the fight, despite taking what most dogs would consider serious pressure. I think these dogs would also tolerate pain without going into defense as well. That is why the breeder compared them to game bred pit bulls in terms of their tenacity. But they didn't appear to be angry or stressed at all.


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## hunterisgreat

DaniFani said:


> Huh. Interesting, thanks. I didn't mean that a dog with strong nerves wouldn't "need" defense. Defense is one of the core necessities to all life in all species (reproduction, food, defense/survival). I was asking more about a dog that goes into defense *faster* than a dog that will prefer prey for a while.
> 
> So, how do you tell the difference between a dog in "self defense" and a dog fighting out of a "desire" to be offensive? Couldn't choosing to be offensive be considered a "game" to the dog? If he was truly "serious" it would be out of self defense/fear of harm, right? Not that the bite will feel much different, just curious how you tell.


No its not a game, but I guess I need your definition of "game". If thats anything the dog willingly chooses to do then perhaps yes. When two male dogs play rough as puppies its a game. When the same two males fight for control of the pack and sexual rights to females, its not a game and very real harm is being dealt out. Its still a very real thing. My female will work in prey exclusively if I allowed it. I intentionally work her in aggression to the point that it is conditioned and her guarding is out of very high aggression by default now. My male has always defaulted to aggression. I prefer the later, though I think that is rarer in females TBH.

It would be clearer if people used the phrases "prey drive", "defense drive", and "offensive drive". In that terminology, I work suitable dogs almost exclusively in prey and offensive drives. 

There isn't a hard set of behaviors that are are always indicative of defense or aggression. Each dog is different. For example, if my male is hackled, he is in defense - always... I've never seen him hackle in training. Only a few occasions such as a stranger surprising us in our territory, a 200+ lb wild boar on my back porch, and a few other times. My female, hackles in defense and in aggression. She is hackled when doing a bark and hold. 

Most people can't see the difference between prey and defensive/aggression drives in a dog, much less the more subtle differences of defense and aggression


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## Vandal

Just a couple of points while I sit under winter storm "Titan".....
First, prey drive is very important to protection training. No "real" dog lacks prey drive. What I have mostly objected to over the years is the way the dogs are played with in protection and I think people have wrongly demonized prey drive by interchanging the two terms. I very well could have done that as well while objecting to how people train. I think the one aspect that has suffered the most over the years is the nerve strength and we see more dogs with lower thresholds. Many are easier to reach or disturb now, versus the dogs who were harder to ignite. I think if I had to sit and think about it, I would say the dogs years ago were tougher and harder dogs and they would really bring the fight when threatened. However, that fighting behavior we all like to see is in part, prey drive.

Some of those dogs years ago had more social aggression and were protective in a more maternal way...whether male or female, they were looking out for their handler and home. I think some people have made the mistake of labeling dogs like that as defensive...meaning they are protecting themselves, but there was a very distinct difference that is not really easy to put in writing. I guess maternal is the best I can do. I have seen a shift toward more balanced dogs the last few years and have worked some very good ones. I also see more protective dogs and that is not a bad trend if it is what I just talked about. 

When the idea of using the prey instinct was first introduced, there was quite an uproar about it in Germany. There were calls for protecting the "protective instinct" in the breed and not turning the dogs into something they should not be. In reality, even those protective dogs back then had strong prey instincts but as I already said, it wasn't play. Bernhard Mannel was the first to talk about the prey instinct and then Helmut took the ball and ran with it. Helmut was not talking about all prey work however. He was talking about channeling the aggression into the prey....the prey could be the sleeve or it could be the man. What many people started doing is just prey work and "rewarding" the dog by slipping the sleeve and allowing the dog to carry it all over the place. In so doing, I think the dogs who would engage for a reward, or to take possession of the sleeve, were rewarded with points, while the dogs with the courage to take on the man, were somewhat pushed aside. It was easy for people to grasp the idea of the method without truly understanding what they were doing, or why. That lack of understanding persists. We have more dogs now who will go for the sleeve but if it came down to a fight with the man....then, not so much.

Many helpers didn't seem to have the ability to get the dog in drive and I still see this as the biggest weakness in helpers now. They don't read the dogs well and they reinforce dogs who are working at less than optimal drive levels. That leads to all kinds of problems down the road. When a good dog is working at the right level of drive,( all of the protection drives), everything works. The grip is hard and full, they bark and guard well, are confident and they are more compliant. I think many helpers now are a bit on the lazy side. While just running around with no purpose is a mistake, running/movement and making prey attractions, is absolutely necessary. You can also trigger aggression that way as well. There is more than one road to aggression and prey work, done correctly, can take you there with some dogs because there is aggression in the prey instinct. 

Most still do not seem to understand the purpose of the carry, ( some dogs should not carry), or just how bored dogs can get when they are "rewarded" by a helper who simply hands them that sleeve. Words are powerful and when the term "reward" was used, it had a way of changing the behavior in the helpers. Same for the term " helper". They started doing a bit too much helping. 

I do think if you want your SchH dog to do really well in protection, you should spend much less time having them bite prey objects as puppies and youngsters, and more time allowing them to bark at the helper without a bite. Age matters and we were right years ago. Waiting to start your young dog is the best way to go. They will have all the drives for the helper to work with when they are older and that includes prey drive. I have seen plenty of very "serious" dogs who also have a ton of prey drive. Like I said, that is a very important part of any kind of protection training but the helper needs to tap into the rest of the dog as well and then channel it.

Mostly, it's a matter of the helper being able to raise and bring out all the drives we use in protection. How accessible it is for the helper is always the problem and always has been. The helper must have the skill and this seems to be why people are selecting the more easily stimulated dogs. 
People who have trained with me talk about my so called "presence". The dogs are really effected by me but what most miss entirely, is the amount of prey work I am doing. You can't put pressure without releasing it somehow. They are "just dogs" after all. Like us, there is only so much crap they can take and while nature can be brutal, many helpers do not seem to grasp working the dog in a more natural way that the dog can understand.

As I have said before, years ago the pendulum was all the way to the defense work side of the coin, then it swung all the way over to prey work and now, I am hoping it will swing more toward the middle. The GSD was intended to be a medium threshold dog and I hope we start seeing more of those again.


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## meldy

Pretty sure my brain just exploded...

Can someone dumb down the differences between these drives for me please?
Prey is different than defense which is different than aggression...

Prey I think of running something down to eat it. 
Defense...defending?
Aggression...attacking?

Isnt the goal of a defensive dog to attack? It might be the terminology that is tripping me up. Sorry! :help:


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## carmspack

OH YES how many times have I said this "I do think if you want your SchH dog to do really well in protection, you should spend much less time having them bite prey objects as puppies and youngsters, and more time allowing them to bark at the helper without a bite. Age matters and we were right years ago. Waiting to start your young dog is the best way to go"
and this "Age matters and we were right years ago. Waiting to start your young dog is the best way to go. They will have all the drives for the helper to work with when they are older and that includes prey drive."
exactly what I told Journeys people to do -- go live a normal life first .

There is too much training the behaviour and not training the dog.

A pet peeve is young dogs worked in prey, not that part, this part , then the decoy throws the tug at the dog , when the dog should pull forward into the prey object , and have some resistance . 

Yes "The GSD was intended to be a medium threshold dog and I hope we start seeing more of those again. " said it the other day -- the intermediate irritability dog . You can't be so dull and you can't be to sitmulated.
Used to be a word "sharpness" which people misinterpret as an aggressive response to stress. It means an awareness , doesn't miss a trick , and then act accordingly.

nice to see you again Vandal --


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## hunterisgreat

meldy said:


> Pretty sure my brain just exploded...
> 
> Can someone dumb down the differences between these drives for me please?
> Prey is different than defense which is different than aggression...
> 
> Prey I think of running something down to eat it.
> Defense...defending?
> Aggression...attacking?
> 
> Isnt the goal of a defensive dog to attack? It might be the terminology that is tripping me up. Sorry! :help:


The most important is food drive. It directly serves the role to encourage behaviors that sustain life
Prey drive is a drive who's ultimate drive goal is to catch the prey... which in turn satisfies the drive goal of food drive.
Defensive drive directly serves the role of encouraging behaviors that preserve life.

The goal of a defensive dog is to make the threat go into avoidance. This is why a defensive bite is generally quick, with the front teeth, and let go of immediately... its a "see what I'll do to you if you don't get away from me". They *want* to create space between the threat and themselves. Aggression does *not* want to create space, it wants to control and force the other party into submission. Never is a dog 100% purely in one drive or another... when someone says "that dog is working in prey", they mean, that is the drive most prominent. These are terms we use to pigeon whole the state of mind of the dog into one box or another but real life isn't that simple.


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## Chip Blasiole

Anne, 
That was an informative post, as I know you have seen the changes over the years. It reminded me of a night, probably about 15 years ago, when I had the chance to listen to Dean Caulderon while he was training with another top level schH trainer/handler. There were just a few of us there and he emphasized the importance or getting your pup out early and starting all phases as young as possible. At the time, I didn't know any better. And I think his frame of reference was strictly from a competition point of view. I came to realize, there is also incentive for many of the top sport people in terms of financial gain in the way of seminars, etc, to get people out early with their pups. Of course, the top competitors rarely even mess with pups. 
Also, the discussion on the other forum involved KNPV lines of Mals and DS's and they definitely take a different approach than the Germans in laying the foundation for a dog's bitework. 
Meldy,
It can be confusing. I suggest going to Schutzhund Village and looking under Armin's articles to get at least one set of terms that I think make sense.


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## meldy

So the goal of an IPO dog is to get the threat into avoidance and that's usually where their training stops whereas a PPD dog will pursue it after that? And that part is a defense/aggression drive.
Does prey come in with the actual running down of the 'bad guy' or is the whole process something of a prey in that the dog is performing a routine for a reward?


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## Chip Blasiole

Meldy,
Just to confuse you further, Hunter says a defensive bite is usually quick and with the front of the dog's mouth. I understand his point, but in the stronger dogs, there is strong active defensive aggression and strong prey drive with the dog biting in defense and still having a very confident, full mouthed grip, and not letting go. A dog is not just in one drive or another. They can and do overlap.


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## hunterisgreat

meldy said:


> So the goal of an IPO dog is to get the threat into avoidance and that's usually where their training stops whereas a PPD dog will pursue it after that? And that part is a defense/aggression drive.
> Does prey come in with the actual running down of the 'bad guy' or is the whole process something of a prey in that the dog is performing a routine for a reward?


IPO is a sport where the goal is to achieve maximum points.

A dog exhibiting defensive behavior is trying to make the aggressor go into avoidance


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## hunterisgreat

Chip Blasiole said:


> Meldy,
> Just to confuse you further, Hunter says a defensive bite is usually quick and with the front of the dog's mouth. I understand his point, but in the stronger dogs, there is strong active defensive aggression and strong prey drive with the dog biting in defense and still having a very confident, full mouthed grip, and not letting go. A dog is not just in one drive or another. They can and do overlap.


Correct, but as you said, that is active defensive aggression (which I call "aggression") and the influence of prey that are making the bite full and calm. It is the defensive-influence that brings the power into the grip.

lol I also just said, a dog is never 100% anything.


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## meldy

Chip Blasiole said:


> Meldy,
> It can be confusing. I suggest going to Schutzhund Village and looking under Armin's articles to get at least one set of terms that I think make sense.


 
Thank you! another source of information  Looks like a great site!


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## hunterisgreat

As an example Meldy, if I take an otherwise strong IPO dog with a full calm grip and *really* put some pressure on him bringing him closer to his threshold for handling stress, you will see the dog's grip begin to deteriorate and be more like the shallow primarily defensive grip. At this point, the dog no longer thinks he can win against this opponent and is reverting to more of a defensive mode. This is not a state of mind we wish to train in


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## meldy

hunterisgreat said:


> As an example Meldy, if I take an otherwise strong IPO dog with a full calm grip and *really* put some pressure on him bringing him closer to his threshold for handling stress, you will see the dog's grip begin to deteriorate and be more like the shallow primarily defensive grip. At this point, the dog no longer thinks he can win against this opponent and is reverting to more of a defensive mode. This is not a state of mind we wish to train in


 
Is this a confidence (training/upbringing) issue? Or a temperament (genetic) one?
Probably not the right terminology sorry!


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## carmspack

meldy , prey drive is triggered by motion . Active aggression can be directed to a passive standing still person . Active aggression , fight drive has the want to defeat the source of threat . Defense is the fight to get out of there , put distance between the threat and self .


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## Chip Blasiole

Going back to the OP, the dogs being discussed could not be pressured enough to push them into defense, but that type of dog is not common. This type of dog's traits are largely genetic and not the influence of training. Other types of dogs will be more the product of training and genetics.


----------



## crackem

I wouldn't worry so much about the terminology and worry more about seeing behaviors in dogs that YOU want to live with. Just the term "defense" means so many things to ever have a meaningful converstation about it. Myself, I don't want a defensive anything to show in my dog ever. To me, it shows great worry and a fight for it's life. If I get that reaction from doing schutzhund, it's time to get a different dog.

I'd I can live with terms like "real" or "false" aggression. One I like, one I don't. I like confidence, a dog that is in prey and gets his ass kicked and stays in the fight to me is confident and has the nerve to stay in the fight. Defense? I think defense is fight or flight. Could it come into play in some situations? Sure. Should it be something you're working in or near in IPO or anything really on a regular basis? If you are, why is your dog so worried about a situation its been in more than a few times????

I think prey drive is pretty well defined, but then you still have people that want to break it down into ball drive and tug drive and play drive and any other names they can think of. I prefer to think of drive and thresholds. Does a tug excite the prey drive? still prey drive. Does a dog hate balls and tugs, but likes to chase rabbits? it's not play and prey to me, it's all prey, it's just the rabbit hits a threshold a ball doesn't. 

Fight drive? active aggression, false aggression, active defense aggression, active aggression, You'll go crazy trying to figure out what they all mean  I'd spend more time looking at dogs and their behaviors than what some words mean to some people because these debates about definitions have been going on since the dawn of dog training and still haven't been agreed upon


----------



## hunterisgreat

meldy said:


> Is this a confidence (training/upbringing) issue? Or a temperament (genetic) one?
> Probably not the right terminology sorry!


Is what an issue?


----------



## meldy

hunterisgreat said:


> Is what an issue?


 
A dog that backs off when pressured.


----------



## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> meldy , prey drive is triggered by motion . Active aggression can be directed to a passive standing still person . Active aggression , fight drive has the want to defeat the source of threat . Defense is the fight to get out of there , put distance between the threat and self .


Man I hate nit-picking... but prey isn't *always* triggered by motion (just very easily triggered by motion). Strictly speaking, its triggered by acting like prey, and often prey freezes and hopes it is not seen. When prey does move, its generally rapid stop and go motion... like how squirrels, rabbits, deer, etc move. When my dog sees a perfectly still deer that thinks its not spotted, it is infact deeply prey drive that my dog is skyrocketing into... the deer, is completely unmoving, not even blinking. A helper can do the same thing with a dogs.


----------



## hunterisgreat

meldy said:


> A dog that backs off when pressured.


All dogs, given enough application of pressure in the correct way for that dog, can be made to back off. Everything and everyone has a breaking point. For some it might be physical pain. For some it is not physical pain, its something else. Its not an issue, its just a reality.


----------



## meldy

hunterisgreat said:


> All dogs, given enough application of pressure in the correct way for that dog, can be made to back off. Everything and everyone has a breaking point. For some it might be physical pain. For some it is not physical pain, its something else. Its not an issue, its just a reality.


 
Ok..I don't think Im explaining my question very well! sorry!

I meant the threshold at which dogs back off...is that a genetic trait or something that is trained for? IE can a dog be trained to be confident enough that it does not back off or will a dog that is going to back off do it regardless of any outside factors.
Does that make more sense? Sorry! Im tripping over the terminology like crazy >.< but trying to see if there's a mostly genetic component or if a good portion of that is trained into or out of dogs through good and bad training.


----------



## hunterisgreat

meldy said:


> Ok..I don't think Im explaining my question very well! sorry!
> 
> I meant the threshold at which dogs back off...is that a genetic trait or something that is trained for? IE can a dog be trained to be confident enough that it does not back off or will a dog that is going to back off do it regardless of any outside factors.
> Does that make more sense? Sorry! Im tripping over the terminology like crazy >.< but trying to see if there's a mostly genetic component or if a good portion of that is trained into or out of dogs through good and bad training.


Its both. I can take a dog and through training increase his thresholds for stress. I'd prefer to have a genetically "unbreakable" dog though.


----------



## Baillif

The arguement always seems to bring in whether or not a dog will fight through a stabbing or not and its silly. Only way to know for sure is stab the dog. 

I do know for the purposes of higher ringsport competition it takes a special bitey SOB to make it to the higher levels. The kind that can take a max blast from a e collar to whistle recall off a decoy and still have the dog left in him to keep going for the decoy despite past possible consequences. To push through barrages and obsticles and heavy acessories to get the bites and stay on despite pressure. Takes a dog that has an edge and a strong spirit and it isnt common. That dog isnt going to care if hes pressured or if you break a stick over his head.


----------



## crackem

hunterisgreat said:


> Man I hate nit-picking... but prey isn't *always* triggered by motion (just very easily triggered by motion). Strictly speaking, its triggered by acting like prey, and often prey freezes and hopes it is not seen. When prey does move, its generally rapid stop and go motion... like how squirrels, rabbits, deer, etc move. When my dog sees a perfectly still deer that thinks its not spotted, it is infact deeply prey drive that my dog is skyrocketing into... the deer, is completely unmoving, not even blinking. A helper can do the same thing with a dogs.


we could nitpick even more and go back the other way. dogs get stuck in the eye or stalk if prey isn't moving, prey yes, active?? not really. That usually makes a dog unsure so they bark or do a quick half charge or something to get the object to move, and when it moves the prey sequence can continue thru activity. Then they learn they can make things move and have great fun 

So what is prey drive? Is it the parts of prey drive? The eye, stalk, chase, grab, bite, kill dissect? or is it the sum of the parts? is it the active parts? if a dog is stuck at stalk, but never goes any further in the sequence is it still prey drive that is usable for us? once could say any dog that eats has prey drive, because that is a part of it, but is it prey drive in the sense we use it to train herding dogs to do protection work?

Less time with definitions and more time watching behaviors and deciding what you like  it's more productive


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## Baillif

Yup you know it when you see it even if you really dont know what it is


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## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> The arguement always seems to bring in whether or not a dog will fight through a stabbing or not and its silly. Only way to know for sure is stab the dog.
> 
> I do know for the purposes of higher ringsport competition it takes a special bitey SOB to make it to the higher levels. The kind that can take a max blast from a e collar to whistle recall off a decoy and still have the dog left in him to keep going for the decoy despite past possible consequences. To push through barrages and obsticles and heavy acessories to get the bites and stay on despite pressure. Takes a dog that has an edge and a strong spirit and it isnt common. That dog isnt going to care if hes pressured or if you break a stick over his head.


YOu don't have to stab a dog, but if you see a dog become unsettled or disengage because of a stomped on paw, a jam from the helper, a broken tooth or hole through their tongue or cheek, thats a dog that can't take the stress.

As far as the ecollar on full for a call-off, I'd call that a training issue.


----------



## Baillif

If the dog cant take that it shouldnt be doing sport work.

As for the collar thing take it up with ivan.


----------



## carmspack

well had this happen " arguement always seems to bring in whether or not a dog will fight through a stabbing or not and its silly. Only way to know for sure is stab the dog. "

the dogs I have do go out for PD service . 

mentioned before in the schutzhund vs protection training thread.
One dog with the RCMP stabbed during an aggressive take down of a guy - and in spite of his injuries the dog continued the fight , later to die on the operating table . This after years of service .
Ironically his sisters son , Keno , awarded Purina Hall of Fame , for meritorious service , hit by a car while in pursuit , bleeding and head injuries he completed the apprehension and held the man .

Those dogs basically uncle/nephew ---- had the old fight drive --- lines to Bernd Lierberg and Marko Cellerland big time . 

prey is excited by movement , chase and catch . When the prey stands still the prey drive begins to disarm and the dog releases.

In PD service the dog holds whether the man stands still or not . A lot can happen in those moments --- hold till released with an out .

the stick hits were meant to reveal the dogs who couldn't make the fight


----------



## hunterisgreat

crackem said:


> we could nitpick even more and go back the other way. dogs get stuck in the eye or stalk if prey isn't moving, prey yes, active?? not really. That usually makes a dog unsure so they bark or do a quick half charge or something to get the object to move, and when it moves the prey sequence can continue thru activity. Then they learn they can make things move and have great fun
> 
> So what is prey drive? Is it the parts of prey drive? The eye, stalk, chase, grab, bite, kill dissect? or is it the sum of the parts? is it the active parts? if a dog is stuck at stalk, but never goes any further in the sequence is it still prey drive that is usable for us? once could say any dog that eats has prey drive, because that is a part of it, but is it prey drive in the sense we use it to train herding dogs to do protection work?
> 
> Less time with definitions and more time watching behaviors and deciding what you like  it's more productive


stalking, shaking, gutting, etc... are all behaviors, ie vehicles for the prey drive to be satisfied. Some dogs prey drive is satisfied more easily than others regardless of their overall level. Some seem to never satisfy the drive. Prey drive is not a behavior itself. Its an urge, a compulsion. Its no different than hunger. Some people are so starving they'll eat a gas station hot dog and be satisified, and turn down a steak an hour afterwards. Some will eat until their is not food to be eaten and are still hungry.

She asked questions, so I answered


----------



## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> If the dog cant take that it shouldnt be doing sport work.
> 
> As for the collar thing take it up with ivan.


All dogs have a limit to what they can take. Given enough stimulation over and extended time, all dogs, and all people, will break.

If you mean Ivan B., I used to regularly train with a very nice mali from him. Same thing. That dog had a bald neck from the prong, and was a stubborn SOB... still, I believe it was an issue that could be fixed through training as correction was not sufficient.


----------



## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> well had this happen " arguement always seems to bring in whether or not a dog will fight through a stabbing or not and its silly. Only way to know for sure is stab the dog. "
> 
> the dogs I have do go out for PD service .
> 
> mentioned before in the schutzhund vs protection training thread.
> One dog with the RCMP stabbed during an aggressive take down of a guy - and in spite of his injuries the dog continued the fight , later to die on the operating table . This after years of service .
> Ironically his sisters son , Keno , awarded Purina Hall of Fame , for meritorious service , hit by a car while in pursuit , bleeding and head injuries he completed the apprehension and held the man .
> 
> Those dogs basically uncle/nephew ---- had the old fight drive --- lines to Bernd Lierberg and Marko Cellerland big time .
> 
> prey is excited by movement , chase and catch . When the prey stands still the prey drive begins to disarm and the dog releases.
> 
> In PD service the dog holds whether the man stands still or not . A lot can happen in those moments --- hold till released with an out .
> 
> the stick hits were meant to reveal the dogs who couldn't make the fight


I'll try to find a video of a dog being further prey stimulated on a stationary helper lol


----------



## Baillif

There is a video on ytube of a dog from ellises kennel named fauxtois that would continue to just push and bite and push and bite on a stationary decoy who was just sitting down in a chair. Some dogs get something out of that kind of crap chemically. They dont care if you move or not.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> There is a video on ytube of a dog from ellises kennel named fauxtois that would continue to just push and bite and push and bite on a stationary decoy who was just sitting down in a chair. Some dogs get something out of that kind of crap chemically. They dont care if you move or not.


I sent my male on a long bite to a helper seated in a crowd once. He didn't care that the helper was seated, not moving.


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## Baillif

His pupils blow out and fill out his eyes when he bites too dont they?


----------



## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> His pupils blow out and fill out his eyes when he bites too dont they?


Huh?


----------



## Baillif

Pupil dialation to as far out as they can go when hes on the bite


----------



## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> Pupil dialation to as far out as they can go when es on the bite


I'm usually not on that end of the equation so its hard to say. 

They are open, but I can't make out pupil size in these photos

_ *** Oversized pics removed by ADMIN ( 1259 X 926) *** _


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Baillif said:


> His pupils blow out and fill out his eyes when he bites too dont they?


Curious to know where you are going with this? Not in a way that implies I plan on arguing with you, but actually general curiosity as that statement went right over my head


----------



## Baillif

Ive noticed that the dogs that will go alligator on a suit and just crank on you all have some sort of chemical reward for the act of biting and cranking hard on something. It doesnt have to be a decoy or sleeve it could just be a jolly ball or something. Its a drug for them. I dont know if its a heavy endorphin release or what it is, there have never been any studies on it but you can tell when a dog goes "there" by looking at the eyes. Its like theyre there but not. Theyll continue to clamp and fight you even if you just stood there.

Not all of em do it but the ones that do are usually pretty beasty and will stay on there even when so tired they go bloodshot in the eyes on you.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Baillif said:


> Ive noticed that the dogs that will go alligator on a suit and just crank on you all have some sort of chemical reward for the act of biting and cranking hard on something. It doesnt have to be a decoy or sleeve it could just be a jolly ball or something. Its a drug for them. I dont know if its a heavy endorphin release or what it is, there have never been any studies on it but you can tell when a dog goes "there" by looking at the eyes. Its like theyre there but not. Theyll continue to clamp and fight you even if you just stood there.
> 
> Not all of em do it but the ones that do are usually pretty beasty and will stay on there even when so tired they go bloodshot in the eyes on you.


OK I was curious because my dog while not very civil gets what we always call "ecstasy eyes" when playing tug or while on the sleeve lol so I was curious. He'll also keep pulling and digging his heels (not sideways, on front) on a stationary helper until outed.

With that said, he's certainly not the type of dog you are all referring too here, just a BYB dog that we worked a lot with. 

Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> Ive noticed that the dogs that will go alligator on a suit and just crank on you all have some sort of chemical reward for the act of biting and cranking hard on something. It doesnt have to be a decoy or sleeve it could just be a jolly ball or something. Its a drug for them. I dont know if its a heavy endorphin release or what it is, there have never been any studies on it but you can tell when a dog goes "there" by looking at the eyes. Its like theyre there but not. Theyll continue to clamp and fight you even if you just stood there.


It's an intense pleasure to know they are hurting the helper. If the helper goes limp and I out the dog and pull him away, he walks away proud and full of himself unless the helper gets up prematurely. When he gets a good grip on a suit and a really hurts the helper and sees or hears them wince, it gets the same effect.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I love video heres Mike testing a female 13 month old Mal with no prior bitework experience. All prey here, yet we know the majority of dogs would bail on this test. These are x mals but he has a few of GSDs too if anyone cares too look.





 
And another





 


For those asking questions about defense heres what a quick video search yeilded. There are better examples so if anyone has better please post.

Defense, shallower bites and you can see that if enough pressure is applied the dogs will likely fall apart.





 




 
Less obvious but a little more pressure and this dog will likely run. Some prey here too.


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## Baillif

hunterisgreat said:


> It's an intense pleasure to know they are hurting the helper. If the helper goes limp and I out the dog and pull him away, he walks away proud and full of himself unless the helper gets up prematurely. When he gets a good grip on a suit and a really hurts the helper and sees or hears them wince, it gets the same effect.


Im talking about a dog that will go there even with zero reaction on the part of the decoy or helper.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> Im talking about a dog that will go there even with zero reaction on the part of the decoy or helper.


So am i


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Baillif said:


> Im talking about a dog that will go there even with zero reaction on the part of the decoy or helper.


I think I'm understanding what you mean - a dog that gets flooded with pleasure hormones not so much from "beating the guy up/dominating the helper/asserting himself" but just from the act of biting down on something?


----------



## Baillif

Yup


----------



## hunterisgreat

ayoitzrimz said:


> I think I'm understanding what you mean - a dog that gets flooded with pleasure hormones not so much from "beating the guy up/dominating the helper/asserting himself" but just from the act of biting down on something?


It's not unrelated. Same reason it's fun to push a dead tree down in the forest, or break a flourescent light tube. It's just fun the break stuff


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## ayoitzrimz

hunterisgreat said:


> It's not unrelated. Same reason it's fun to push a dead tree down in the forest, or break a flourescent light tube. It's just fun the break stuff


Of course, other than the rules we should give them nothing about dog training is black and white


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

In regards to the dogs at the local club.

The 4 year old does not scream because he is stressed, I have seen those and he isnt one. His obedience is excellent. As too his temperment outside of the bitework very social/confident. His high pitched bark is what costs him in the judging. The same goes for the three male littermates in terms of temperment. All confident social dogs that would make decent pets if you knew how to handle them.

As for the PD indeed they do not come to the club the owners/breeder do work with several PDs in the area. I have little doubt that one will likely be sold if one of the owners decides to sell.

As to sleeve focus, I view that as a training issue. You can stimulate a strong prey driven dog to view the man as the prey object as you can see in Mikes vids.

Thanks for the in depth explanations Chip you clarified what I was saying better then I could.

In short I hear a lot of stuff about prey in a negative context, but I have seen enough that I believe that dogs that are 90% plus prey when coupled with a strong nerve base can be very effective in multiple venues.

Do I personally want to own such a dog? Maybe not..


----------



## Baillif

Yup same dogs if you send em on retrieves for awkward items without handles they tend to make their own by force.


----------



## mycobraracr

G-burg said:


> mycobraracr~ you seem to have a good head on your shoulder when it comes to working dogs.


Thanks! 




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I love video heres Mike testing a female 13 month old Mal with no prior bitework experience. All prey here, yet we know the majority of dogs would bail on this test. These are x mals but he has a few of GSDs too if anyone cares too look.
> 
> miki logan haus kennels - YouTube
> 
> And another
> 
> Ivo bitework inside.MOV - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> For those asking questions about defense heres what a quick video search yeilded. There are better examples so if anyone has better please post.
> 
> Defense, shallower bites and you can see that if enough pressure is applied the dogs will likely fall apart.
> 
> Caucasian Ovcharka - Black and white Li?ti?ka - YouTube
> 
> Central Asian Ovtcharka SHANGOO - YouTube
> 
> Less obvious but a little more pressure and this dog will likely run. Some prey here too.
> 
> GHANDI von Arlett o filme de 2004 - YouTube



I'm not sure what the last videos where showing. You can't really say that all "defensive" bites are frontal/shallow bites. Nerve would have a lot to do with it IMO. That being said, we talk about prey and defense but what about active aggression? Is it prey or defense? Is it a grey area? The terminology isn't really important. I would rather see a dog not overly prey driven but not overly defensive either. I know this is confusing but like many of you have said, when you see it, you know. 

Your first couple videos are nice. I have seen these before. One thing I noticed though is that all the pressure is coming once the dog is already on the bite. The bite is a "safe place" for a lot of dogs. Also picking the dog up and throwing it around is how I bring up my personal puppies in my play. Falling on them picking them up by their skin, swinging them around and into objects. My last two puppies didn't come off either. Now I wasn't as aggressive as this decoy but mine were also only 8-16 weeks old when I started it. For me it was conditioning while here it was a test.


----------



## Baillif

Little surprised Winners hasn't weighed in yet his dog ripped a guys bicep off.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> Little surprised Winners hasn't weighed in yet his dog ripped a guys bicep off.


How did that happen?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Hunter,
You have mentioned several times that all dogs have their breaking point. What caught my attention with the initial discussion on the WDF was the mention of the extreme prey of the KNPV Mals/DS's and Mike's comparison of them to game bred pit bulls. I really had not thought of police and military dogs in terms of gameness. I then learned of the term "dead game" which describes a dog that will fight to the death or that will not stop to overcome an obstacle. The problem is that the only way to test a dog for the trait of "dead gameness" is to see if the dog will actually die fighting or overcoming the obstacle. I think gameness adds another dimension in terms of thinking about and recognizing what some dogs can bring when engaging in manwork, but it is not traditionally thought of in military or police dogs. Also, many police and military handlers want dogs that will not easily back down, but don't want dogs that are typically considered aggressive, as in defensive aggression. Also, many don't want dominant dogs which can be seen in some KNPV lines, due to handlers not being that experienced and not being able to handle the dogs. In the GSD, the right measure of prey, strong active defense and dominance probably make for the best dogs in terms of manwork. I tend to lean toward believing that the outcrossing to other breeds in the KNPV Mals/DS's has brought gameness and an extreme type of prey into some lines, not seen in the GSD.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Chip Blasiole said:


> Hunter,
> You have mentioned several times that all dogs have their breaking point. What caught my attention with the initial discussion on the WDF was the mention of the extreme prey of the KNPV Mals/DS's and Mike's comparison of them to game bred pit bulls. I really had not thought of police and military dogs in terms of gameness. I then learned of the term "dead game" which describes a dog that will fight to the death or that will not stop to overcome an obstacle. The problem is that the only way to test a dog for the trait of "dead gameness" is to see if the dog will actually die fighting or overcoming the obstacle. I think gameness adds another dimension in terms of thinking about and recognizing what some dogs can bring when engaging in manwork, but it is not traditionally thought of in military or police dogs. Also, many police and military handlers want dogs that will not easily back down, but don't want dogs that are typically considered aggressive, as in defensive aggression. Also, many don't want dominant dogs which can be seen in some KNPV lines, due to handlers not being that experienced and not being able to handle the dogs. In the GSD, the right measure of prey, strong active defense and dominance probably make for the best dogs in terms of manwork. I tend to lean toward believing that the outcrossing to other breeds in the KNPV Mals/DS's has brought gameness and an extreme type of prey into some lines, not seen in the GSD.


 
Would you define "gameness" as an extreme form of prey drive? 

I think those that bred game dogs had the benifit of actually seeing the results of their work (as deplorable as that is) and knowing what to breed moving forward. Those same folks tend to be rather brutal when it comes to culling and like to inbreed. I think those factors lead to a fair amount of consistency in their dogs and the resulting blood baths in the fight box. 
It seems those traits have really benifited the KNPV dogs if infact the cross did occur.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

mycobraracr said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what the last videos where showing. You can't really say that all "defensive" bites are frontal/shallow bites. Nerve would have a lot to do with it IMO. That being said, we talk about prey and defense but what about active aggression? Is it prey or defense? Is it a grey area? The terminology isn't really important. I would rather see a dog not overly prey driven but not overly defensive either. I know this is confusing but like many of you have said, when you see it, you know.
> 
> Your first couple videos are nice. I have seen these before. One thing I noticed though is that all the pressure is coming once the dog is already on the bite. The bite is a "safe place" for a lot of dogs. Also picking the dog up and throwing it around is how I bring up my personal puppies in my play. Falling on them picking them up by their skin, swinging them around and into objects. My last two puppies didn't come off either. Now I wasn't as aggressive as this decoy but mine were also only 8-16 weeks old when I started it. For me it was conditioning while here it was a test.


Myco I think Mike's success speaks for itself when it comes to whether the dogs have it or not. I sincerely doubt 90% of dogs could handle that kind of pressure. These were green dogs he was testing no real work prior to the tests. 

The last vids where examples I found of dogs biting out of defence. My point was to show the lack of strength in the work and how much closer those dogs where to flight. 

Not saying all dogs that bite in defense are like this but I think the majority of dogs that work out of defense would fall apart if truly pressured.


----------



## mycobraracr

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Myco I think Mike's success speaks for itself when it comes to whether the dogs have it or not. I sincerely doubt 90% of dogs could handle that kind of pressure. These were green dogs he was testing no real work prior to the tests.


Yes, I was not really speaking of Mikes success, program or knowledge. Just stating what I saw. I agree, a lot of dogs wouldn't be able to handle that.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Chip Blasiole said:


> Hunter,
> You have mentioned several times that all dogs have their breaking point. What caught my attention with the initial discussion on the WDF was the mention of the extreme prey of the KNPV Mals/DS's and Mike's comparison of them to game bred pit bulls. I really had not thought of police and military dogs in terms of gameness. I then learned of the term "dead game" which describes a dog that will fight to the death or that will not stop to overcome an obstacle. The problem is that the only way to test a dog for the trait of "dead gameness" is to see if the dog will actually die fighting or overcoming the obstacle. I think gameness adds another dimension in terms of thinking about and recognizing what some dogs can bring when engaging in manwork, but it is not traditionally thought of in military or police dogs. Also, many police and military handlers want dogs that will not easily back down, but don't want dogs that are typically considered aggressive, as in defensive aggression. Also, many don't want dominant dogs which can be seen in some KNPV lines, due to handlers not being that experienced and not being able to handle the dogs. In the GSD, the right measure of prey, strong active defense and dominance probably make for the best dogs in terms of manwork. I tend to lean toward believing that the outcrossing to other breeds in the KNPV Mals/DS's has brought gameness and an extreme type of prey into some lines, not seen in the GSD.


It's late, so I'll be short... Such a dog is broke not by trying to "overpower" their prey drive, but by undermining and depriving them of prey stimuli, and in that way you are circumventing their insane prey drive and getting right to the core of the dog.


----------



## David Winners

Baillif said:


> Little surprised Winners hasn't weighed in yet his dog ripped a guys bicep off.


I'll be in here eventually. I'm playing catch up and my response is going to be fairly long I think.



David Winners


----------



## David Winners

hunterisgreat said:


> How did that happen?


Inertia 

David Winners


----------



## hunterisgreat

David Winners said:


> Inertia
> 
> David Winners


No protection?


----------



## DaniFani

So after chatting with my "mentors" about this. We talked about "fight drive", which I think would be Hunter's "offense." Basically the dog that gets more amped from most corrections, jumps in with glee after getting pushed away, etc.... Which makes sense. Guess everyone has their own vocabulary.  I'm loving this thread though. Can't wait to hear David's thoughts.


----------



## carmspack

"The bite is a "safe place" for a lot of dogs" -- yes , a lot of dogs will bite out of anxiety , bite to relieve stress in an over stimulating situation.
It is harder to inhibit the bite .

" Also, many police and military handlers want dogs that will not easily back down, but don't want dogs that are typically considered aggressive, as in defensive aggression" adding which lack control and are reactive to a situation , loose control while in a situation.

The GSD is not a specialty biting dog .


----------



## David Winners

carmspack said:


> "The bite is a "safe place" for a lot of dogs" -- yes , a lot of dogs will bite out of anxiety , bite to relieve stress in an over stimulating situation.
> It is harder to inhibit the bite .
> 
> " Also, many police and military handlers want dogs that will not easily back down, but don't want dogs that are typically considered aggressive, as in defensive aggression" adding which lack control and are reactive to a situation , loose control while in a situation.
> 
> The GSD is not a specialty biting dog .


A quick reply from my phone. I'll post in a bit when I get back to the laptop. This is a great thread


The GSD it's a specialty dog in partnership and teamwork. It is not an autonomous weapon. 

David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1

mycobraracr said:


> Yes, I was not really speaking of Mikes success, program or knowledge. Just stating what I saw. I agree, a lot of dogs wouldn't be able to handle that.


 
Lol..just looked at what I typed and realized how it came off. What I should have said was "I would assume based on the vids and Mikes reputation that the same dogs backtied and pressured would not alter their demeanor."


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## David Winners

The difference I see in the two types of dogs is how they are utilized, and what motivates them. I'm coming from a working aspect and not a sport aspect because that is what I have the most experience in.

The SF dog is utilized far more like a hand grenade with fur. Without going into details, because I really shouldn't on a public forum, an SF dog is going to be working away from it's handler, wreaking havoc and causing a major distraction. It will be taking at least one bad guy out of the fight while doing this. The dogs Mike trains are perfect for this. They are afraid of nothing and have nothing but the joy of battle on their mind. They can do it again and again. The SF dogs I know are very social, very friendly and spend a lot of time hanging out with the team. They aren't afraid of anything, therefore they are never defensive. They are always offensive in mindset. You pull the pin and throw them in the window.

A GSD is far more about defense of the handler. They can be very effective in the fight, but are usually utilized with the handler. We go in the door together and take on whatever lies behind it as a team. Fama has run through a room of bad guys to check on me during a search that turned into a firefight. She was thinking of me, not the bad guys, until she saw me. Then she bit the nearest guy. For a GSD to be in the middle of the fight, the handler has to be there too. They can be sent to search and bite. I'm not saying you have to hold their paw or anything, but there is a difference in motivation between the two types of dogs.

Fama ripped that guys bicep off on a long send after a squirter. He turned to swing at her. She got a high bicep bite and carried past him, taking a piece with her. 

I know when I got Fama that she would fail Mike's testing. 100% sure of it. Through our training together, we became a team, and started relying on each other more and more. A huge change came in Fama when I shot a dog that was coming after her. It really changed the way she went through life. She was no longer defensive about her space. She no longer stared down everyone that walked by. She relaxed. Another interesting byproduct of her shift in attitude was that ber bitework went through the roof. She was much more powerful and less stressed under pressure. I believe it was because she knew I had her back. Who's to say. It's my theory though  Could we pass that test now? I still doubt it. She's a great dog, but the dogs in Mike's program are on another level for most of us. We will probably never know. I don't get her back until they retire her.


I do see the same type of behavior in high prey drive protection dogs and good catch dogs. I have hunted pigs with dogs several times in Hawaii. I belong to a APBT board and am a member of the working dog section. They have links to various articles written back in the day when dog fighting was legal. The articles are interesting because they describe some dogs that could care less about their handler, and focused solely on the other dog, while other dogs were just as game, but needed to have the support of their handler in the pit. The great dogs were more like a Mal in that they were never fighting from fear, but strictly for the fight. Another interesting thing is that many of these dogs were not animal aggressive out of the pit.

*I in no way condone dog fighting. I lurk on that board to gather information about aggression and bulldogs because I train a lot of them.*

I see a lot of the same type behavior from the great Mals and Dutchies in bitework. They just love it, like a hungry MMA fighter throws all caution to the wind and just goes in there and bangs. No fear, all go, no quit, losing is not a thought in their mind. Their eyes glaze over and they just go all in. It's really pretty cool.

In the end, I think it is personal preference what type of dog you want to work. IMHO, a balanced GSD is going to have a hard time keeping up with a Mal in sports. Mals are so quick and flashy and that scores points. That doesn't mean I think Mals are the superior breed. They are just different and they suit the sports well. I like the GSD because I want a partner in life, and they suit that role better, for me, than a Mal. I love to train them both, and they both are capable of amazing things in their own right.


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## David Winners

Something I forgot, and the reason I didn't really get involved in the thread on the other forum.

I think what Mike is doing is taking the KNPV type dog and training it in a more positive manner, avoiding the conflict that is built into those dogs through training. His dogs very well may give a crap about their handler. I have yet to meet one.


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## carmspack

adding to the teamwork comments made by David W --- 

GSD tend not to be hand-off dogs -- because they do care about the handler and the relationship -- that is a function of the old herding ancestry . Knowing this , as some local depts. have learned through experience --- some dogs test out better , initially . Others , may have a higher pack need , requiring time , and then they often are the tougher dogs , because of the bond and the walk through fire for the handler.

one "old" style German trainer who adored his man-stopper dogs would have disdain for GSD that worked instantly for someone new, someone else. pardon the expression but he would say they were like prostitutes . Can I say this here? He wanted loyalty .


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## Blitzkrieg1

Very interesting post David. 
I would say my takeaway from this thread is obviously GSD that are exclusively prey driven are not in keeping with the breed standard. However, if like Mike's dogs and there are a few GSDs that he has vids of, the dogs have high prey coupled with fearlessness and tenacity. You could very well have a dog capable of great things.

I just feel that the term "preymonkey" is thrown around all the time as if a dog with an abundance of prey drive is a bad thing. It may not be the dog for everyone but sch a dog can definitely have utility in multiple venues.


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## David Winners

I would agree with that, with the exception that non-preymonkey GSDs are capable of great things too, just different great things LOL


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## Baillif

The mal we have here from knpv lines was trained Michael Ellis style. Still doesn't care about the handler. When he does show any kind of affection it is usually in a way that hurts.


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## David Winners

Baillif said:


> The mal we have here from knpv lines was trained Michael Ellis style. Still doesn't care about the handler. When he does show any kind of affection it is usually in a way that hurts.


LOL... How old?

Someone on the forum has a Loganhaus dog, likes them a lot. I'll see if I can find the post.


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## Baillif

Hes 3 or 4 somewhere in there. Only dog that has leveled me on a face attack with a leg hit. He drove it out from under me and kept going with it.

His idea of affection is paw punching the crap out of you or trying to climb up onto your shoulders give you maybe one lick in the face sometimes involving teeth. He has to be in a pretty good mood for that to happen. Otherwise any interactions are only going to happen under framework of obedience or play. Needless to say we do not allow that dog to interact with clients.


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## hunterisgreat

It's not an abundance of prey that's bad. That's actually good. It's prey way out of balance with defensive drives. Same is true for an abundance of defensive drives with no prey relative to the defense


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## David Winners

My buddy has a retired KNPV Dutchie like that. His son in law threw a bowling ball into the back yard while Gary was away for the weekend. When he got home, Falco was so furious that he couldn't pick it up that he was guarding it. Gary put the suit top on to go get the bowling ball. He was lucky he did 

Same dog got retired because he made it to the rooftop of a building in Baghdad, and Gary didn't know he was on the roof. He recalled Falco out of the house and instead of coming back down the stairs he jumped off the roof and broke his leg.

They are unique units.


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## David Winners

I agree Hunter. Lots of drive in balance is best for me.


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## björn

To make it simple we can say defencedrive can either be a strong offensive/active aggresive response to a treath verus a more weak passive fearbased response with less confidence behind it. Also preydrive we can divide into the running after and gripping something but also the actual joy of struggling and biting with the prey/man because the dog like doing this(many call this fightingdrive) this often goes hand in hand, I mean how often do you see a malinois who only are intressted in moving objects and have no desire to lustfully bite a passive suited man, training the dog to not bite the passive person is probably more troublesome if you have a dog with strong prey/fightingdrive and doing some kind of sport.

Obviously a good strong prey and fightingdrive is needed for a good policedog, we want a dog that likes to bite with confidence and are not easy to scare away with some pressure, also a dog who isn´t lazy in the work. But is more always better? I recently read an article from a k9 instructor/handler who also used to select dogs for the police for many years, the point of the article was where are we going in workingdog breedings and could it be some things in the past was actually quite good to hold onto. Mostly he discussed some changes in the way dogs were tested before in charactertests/selectiontest(in sweden) compared to more recent times, changes that also could be seen in workingdog in general, prey/fightingdrive and intensity is priority where balance and nerves get´s less focus. In former time there was often a consensus between what was considered a good dog regardless if it was dogs for service or dogs for civilians/sport, nowadays it seems there is more differences between what is valued and it´s also reflects in new way of testing where you can get the impression maximum prey/fightdrive is rewarded instead of looking at the whole dog.

For example you seldom see breeders say a certain breedingdog has rock solid nerves, it´s often intensity and drive that is promoted, the more the better. Already long ago experienced evaluators of police/militarydogs warned that you can´t have more prey/fightingdrive or aggresion that the nerves are able to handle, extreme level of "fightingdrive" meaning a dog that is hard to controll or stop his lust for fighting was actually looked upon as something negative that gave the dog minuspoints when scoring the dogs different drives/trait in selectiontests. Also a dog that could be able to switch from being active to relaxing was a sign of good nerves, likewise a dog that could respond in a balanced and correct adapted aggresion to a treath was a sign of nervestrenght while a uncontrolled more hectic form of aggresion could be a sign of nerveissues and hence not ideal.

So in short prey/fightingdrive is good but it´s not so good if the nerves doesn´t are in relation to the drives of the dog, because then we get more dog that have harder time to be controlled, adpat their stresslevel when needed, such dogs are useless for service and also for the experienced sporthandler can create problems. Regarding the KNPV dogs who was shown I doubt these dogs have never been on a suit before and hence are not totally green, but also there, is a high preydog that locks on his suit no matter what is going on around him really a sign of a perfect policedog, it doesn´t say much about trackingability, does it even necessarily say it´s a good strong dog if the suit and pattern isn´t there in reral life, what does it says about the dogs nerves really?


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## Baillif

Hes like that. We gave him a jolly egg as a joke because the big ones are pretty much impossible to pick up. He ended up slamming it through a crate door and almost getting into a fight with the dog in said crate trying. Great dog but has weird quirks. Super hard to teach hurdles he just wants to plow through it. Try to correct him sometimes and he goes into an alligator death roll. Some days are hit or miss with him.


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## ugavet2012

David Winners said:


> I see a lot of the same type behavior from the great Mals and Dutchies in bitework. They just love it, like a hungry MMA fighter throws all caution to the wind and just goes in there and bangs. No fear, all go, no quit, losing is not a thought in their mind. Their eyes glaze over and they just go all in. It's really pretty cool.


I think this is why it is SO dangerous when my mals fight each other, I have never ever seen a dog fight like what they get into. I really think they would fight to the death, and that they enjoy it. The one fight they were locked together, my fiancé managed to unlock one (and he is a large guy) and I had the other one by the collar but literally could not get him to let go no matter what I did, and I did some really not nice things to him that I will not say in a public forum, and he didn't flinch. I ended up having to gag him and hold his nose shut so he couldn't breathe and even then I swear I thought he was going to pass out before he let go. 

But I will say I disagree that they don't are about me, one not as much as the other, but one is OBSESSED with me, the other is way more social and loves everyone.

I agree with the dog looking at the sleeve vs helper being a training issue because my GSD With low thresholds and not good nerves was a challenge to get to carry the sleeve in IPO and she was always focused on the helper, but I really think is way more prey drive than anything else and NOT good nerves, she is not a good example of a GSD and not what anyone here is thinking they would want. She is an example of a dog with prey drive out the butt that overcomes nerves to a certain degree.


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## Baillif

** Comment removed by ADMIN. I think this is one of those things that should not be discussed on the board.**


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## Blitzkrieg1

Iv seen some female mals that seemed to care alot about their owners..also female.


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## Baillif

We weren't talking about mals in general, just the tendencies of one particular line of them.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Your probably right, dont have many knpv dogs around here.


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## carmspack

björn said:


> To make it simple we can say defencedrive can either be a strong offensive/active aggresive response to a treath verus a more weak passive fearbased response with less confidence behind it. Also preydrive we can divide into the running after and gripping something but also the actual joy of struggling and biting with the prey/man because the dog like doing this(many call this fightingdrive) this often goes hand in hand, I mean how often do you see a malinois who only are intressted in moving objects and have no desire to lustfully bite a passive suited man, training the dog to not bite the passive person is probably more troublesome if you have a dog with strong prey/fightingdrive and doing some kind of sport.
> 
> Obviously a good strong prey and fightingdrive is needed for a good policedog, we want a dog that likes to bite with confidence and are not easy to scare away with some pressure, also a dog who isn´t lazy in the work. But is more always better? I recently read an article from a k9 instructor/handler who also used to select dogs for the police for many years, the point of the article was where are we going in workingdog breedings and could it be some things in the past was actually quite good to hold onto. Mostly he discussed some changes in the way dogs were tested before in charactertests/selectiontest(in sweden) compared to more recent times, changes that also could be seen in workingdog in general, prey/fightingdrive and intensity is priority where balance and nerves get´s less focus. In former time there was often a consensus between what was considered a good dog regardless if it was dogs for service or dogs for civilians/sport, nowadays it seems there is more differences between what is valued and it´s also reflects in new way of testing where you can get the impression maximum prey/fightdrive is rewarded instead of looking at the whole dog.
> 
> For example you seldom see breeders say a certain breedingdog has rock solid nerves, it´s often intensity and drive that is promoted, the more the better. Already long ago experienced evaluators of police/militarydogs warned that you can´t have more prey/fightingdrive or aggresion that the nerves are able to handle, extreme level of "fightingdrive" meaning a dog that is hard to controll or stop his lust for fighting was actually looked upon as something negative that gave the dog minuspoints when scoring the dogs different drives/trait in selectiontests. Also a dog that could be able to switch from being active to relaxing was a sign of good nerves, likewise a dog that could respond in a balanced and correct adapted aggresion to a treath was a sign of nervestrenght while a uncontrolled more hectic form of aggresion could be a sign of nerveissues and hence not ideal.
> 
> So in short prey/fightingdrive is good but it´s not so good if the nerves doesn´t are in relation to the drives of the dog, because then we get more dog that have harder time to be controlled, adpat their stresslevel when needed, such dogs are useless for service and also for the experienced sporthandler can create problems. Regarding the KNPV dogs who was shown I doubt these dogs have never been on a suit before and hence are not totally green, but also there, is a high preydog that locks on his suit no matter what is going on around him really a sign of a perfect policedog, it doesn´t say much about trackingability, does it even necessarily say it´s a good strong dog if the suit and pattern isn´t there in reral life, what does it says about the dogs nerves really?


 
Hi Bjorn -- long time no hear , hope your puppy is turning out good .
What you said -- YES -- echoes very much discussions I had with police/military k9 handler/breeder friend Wiehen .

Prey is not only bite . Yet the emphasis is put on this.

Tracking is prey -- hunt / search is prey . Those also have to be selected for . Some prey is explosive -- some prey is not durable . 
Balance for the full package . High drives can be balanced .


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## cliffson1

Bjorn, good to see you and I agree with your post also. 
All I'm going to say as much has already been said, is that the Mal is a dog that can easily assimilate extreme high prey and fight components. The Mal is a much more uniform breed than the GS....in type and temperament. The GS is less uniform with more versatility in temperament, type, color, size, structure than the Mal. When you breed GS to have Mal type prey and fight, (though it is possible and occurs occaisionally), you start creating an imbalance just as when you breed for exclusive color, exclusive sidegait, etc.


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## carmspack

nice to see you again too Cliff-

back to the comments on the noisy , screaming dogs, Cliff since you know and appreciate the old dogs, I think you may agree with me when I say that the old dogs were pretty stern serious dogs who kept a hard eye on you , very watchful. Not this prey/play . Part of the scary part was the dog in command of himself.

The old lines were quiet . It seemed the more confident they were the less likely they were going to bark on the hold , but they held.
Not this screaming mess . 
Here is a dog that epitomizes that , a dog that I think is pretty darn good -- serious fight , you know him Tom Pohranicni Straze 



 
adding another favourite Gero Blatensheko Zamku 



 
not prey monkeys at all -- look how neutral the dog is to the group of men --


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## Susan_GSD_mom

carmspack said:


> Here is a dog that epitomizes that , a dog that I think is pretty darn good -- serious fight , you know him Tom Pohranicni Straze --


My boy Orick's granddam is Ginta z Pohranicni Straze CS--can anyone tell me how she might relate to the dog Carmen mentions here (in the first video)? The only picture I have ever seen of her, she certainly favors him...

BTW... This thread has been layers and layers above me, but I must say this has been educational, and I have certainly enjoyed it!


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## Blitzkrieg1

For the sake of argument I could post a vid of a "prey monkey" ignoring a group of people.


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## David Winners

I know that Mike refers to his dogs as very social. There are dogs I know that are very over the top in work that settle well with confidence around strangers. 

David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1

Whichever way you stand on this topic this has been an interesting thread . Iv run into a lot of people that percieve high prey dogs as maniacs that are always out of control, and cant be trusted to fight a man. I know for a fact thats not always true. 

My dog is a healthy mix of both prey and defense I like her so far. Not sure I would want a dog like Mike's but Im sure they would be a blast to train.


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## David Winners

IMO, there is a need for SF caliber dogs in particular operational environments. I think the place to look for these dogs is in the mal and Dutch dogs currently bed for this type of work. In my limited understanding of the GSD as a whole, I think it is a mistake to try and breed a GSD to fit the mold already filled by other breeds. 

I think that the value and strength of a balanced utility dog is overshadowed in some people's mind by the impressive way that a dog with an overabundance of prey drive works in certain situations. Sometimes a specialist is called for, and this role is filled. Many times a general practitioner that is good at all things will be better suited to life as a working partner.

Fama is nothing like an SF dog, but we were very successful in our mission, and were often requested by units across our area of operations for special missions. When we showed up to work, everyone knew what they were getting, and were were always good enough for what we were asked to accomplish.

I appreciate the GSD for what it is, and constantly consider both of our strengths and weaknesses when planning training or operations. I value the opportunity to work with dogs that suit me well, as I am a Jack of all trades and master of none. I commend those that continue this breed as a useful dog. Without it, I would most certainly not be here today.

David Winners


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## David Winners

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Whichever way you stand on this topic this has been an interesting thread . Iv run into a lot of people that percieve high prey dogs as maniacs that are always out of control, and cant be trusted to fight a man. I know for a fact thats not always true.
> 
> My dog is a healthy mix of both prey and defense I like her so far. Not sure I would want a dog like Mike's but Im sure they would be a blast to train.


I wish all threads were this productive and civil 

David Winners


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## Chip Blasiole

This has been an interesting thread and what I take from it is that the GSD that is well bred for work, is likely to have a unique relationship with his handler. I have only owned GSDs over the years, and even with dogs that had holes in their temperament, there was something about the relationship with them that has kept my atttention. There is not much discussion about the GSD and his intelligence so much any more, as the breed has been bred for a variety of other reasons since the origin of the breed. Some have said that dogs had a role in making our remote ancestors human. I also know that for some who are serious about the type of dog they want to breed or work, the dog is still, mostly a commodity that can be readily replaced or discarded. 
The problem with the GSD, IMO, is that it has become too difficult to find a really good one for work, that has the right blend of traits and doesn't have health problems. I believe that is the result of the breed being selected for conformation over working ability, even from the beginning. Von Stephanitz even comments about the loss of nerve at a seiger show, when he came into the ring and fired a gun and most of the dogs bolted. There has been a price to pay for beauty over function, and to some degree, I think von Stephanitz was a hypocrite. Then the popularity of the breed futher contributes to its downfall. I also think that schutzhund and the changes involved over the years, has contributed to selection of dogs for breeding that were not top calibre working dogs. The situation has been different in Holland, where there is no concern for the dogs' looks. But there may also have been a lack of concern for how these dogs relate to people and their "family", outside of working ability. There are lines of KNPV Mals/DS's known for being very dominent and not at all approachable by strangers. The Dutch have a history of being very hard on their dogs during training or otherwise.


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## Baillif

There are a lot of people of the opinion the malinois is headed in the same direction. That many dogs out there are already having issues making the jumps among other issues. 

To a certain extent it's an issue with our society. I was with a buddy in downtown Raleigh a few weeks ago and we had a malinois off leash with no collar or control devices of any type. The dog was holding a down stay as we ate in front of it and then contact heeled whenever he moved anywhere despite tons of distraction. A woman, seeing all of this comes up to comment and what does she say? Oh what an obedient well behaved dog? Nope. Oh what a beautiful dog! Form over function. It's a problem.


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## meldy

Baillif said:


> There are a lot of people of the opinion the malinois is headed in the same direction. That many dogs out there are already having issues making the jumps among other issues.
> 
> To a certain extent it's an issue with our society. I was with a buddy in downtown Raleigh a few weeks ago and we had a malinois off leash with no collar or control devices of any type. The dog was holding a down stay as we ate in front of it and then contact heeled whenever he moved anywhere despite tons of distraction. A woman, seeing all of this comes up to comment and what does she say? Oh what an obedient well behaved dog? Nope. Oh what a beautiful dog! Form over function. It's a problem.


That's not necessarily what she meant...I've said similar things to dogs that are just impressive. I've said that to friends watching trial dogs on YouTube, granted I couldn't break down what I'm watching worth beans it's sort of a total package statement for me. It doesn't always just apply to looks for us newbie/normal folk (although I get the gist of what you're saying) 

Btw this thread is amazing and incredibly informative!! Thank you everyone!


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## carmspack

this page 11 has been a terrific "closing statement" a good summation , however this is a good thread and I would like to see it continued .

Relationship is very important with the GSD . Blame it on the rapport and sympatico needed by the shepherd, without which it would be exceedingly difficult to entrust duties , at a distance beyond physical control , outside of the zone of impressionable power or influence (the point where the dog can look over his shoulder and figuratively give you the finger) , and in conflict of internal drives , the dogs own prey drive. Not only is the dog told what to do he is asked for a way to do it , go easy, make a corner . It looks like this , a Lenz , a dog that I had looked at 



 
GSD are not malinois . von Stephanitz in his book made comment that they were biting and jumping dogs . Also that there was little to be gained by bringing the two types together. 

Prey drive . Greyhounds have all prey drive . Here is a excerpt 

 
"Prey drive is​​​​put simply the catching and killing of another animal for consumption. In this way it differs to aggression, which is utilised for intimidation or as a threat. Prey drive is fun for dogs, whereas​
aggression is not. Prey drive is adrenalin fuelled and therefore offers a chemical reward for the dog. For many greyhounds, the opportunity to express this behaviour in an otherwise socially devoid racing kennel environment becomes almost addictive."​ 
That was from a greyhound rehoming site . It helps to make this point .

Prey drive is an instinct , necessary for survival . Levels or thresholds for excitement vary.
I bring greyhounds into the discussion as one of my high school friends takes in greyhounds to rehabilitate them. It is a huge challenge to guess when their predation is going to be under control . 

Here is the thing -- a drive can be selected for a level over and above a natural need, for our exploitation. 
That is why we have breeds . They have specialized forms and functions. 
When you select for higher prey drive that is hard wired into the dog and needs an outlet . 

Scenario which could fit just as well into the early socialization thread.
A person has dog . 
Majority interaction and satisfaction comes from prey stimulation , ball play, flirt poles , rag work , this dog depends on , needs this outlet more and more and so it becomes a tool in shaping behaviour.

The dog who is "addicted" to the outlet for drive tension can perform well even if other aspects of social relationship are missing , a substitute for a relationship with the dog . No nuances , or complexities .

Pretty perfect for scale production . Short and sweet . Many dogs can be done per day . Not too difficult to hand over because the dog will work for the reward or release to satisfy the addictive need, nothing to do with the person or handler .
You can see this on some of those wild-eyed fly ball dogs . Some sport dogs , which had a natural propensity , enhanced through early development . Handlers spinning and spinning exciting the dog with the ball , later spinning when the dog has the sleeve . 
Something is missing . 
You can take an ordinary dog . Crate or kennel , bring the dog out for periods of prey drive engagement , put the dog away. Continue . Now you are developing the prey monkey . The problem is that the need to satisfy the prey drive , which can be addictive , is that the weaker dog can over ride anxiety or weakness , to satisfy that physical need to make prey . Dogs which are not strong , may appear to look strong .


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## cliffson1

Breeders should read Carmen's last post....some really good stuff in there....Chip's last post also. For users, it really doesn't matter if the dog has excessive prey and strong nerves thus making it an excellent working dog....but for breeders, they need to be mindful that breeding for that level of prey will not produce consistent levels of nerve to allow the dog to settle, not become addictive, or reactive, or spinner, or tail chaser, or many other things. You lose discernment, because the prey doesn't allow the dog to operate that way. The beauty of the video with Gero was the way he examined his environment from all sides and perspectives UNTIL the threat appeared....with over the top prey dog it is too easy for dog to get fixated on single object. Oblivious to that point to anything else......sometimes there are multiple threats......well not in IPO, but in life and other sports.


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## hunterisgreat

Baillif said:


> There are a lot of people of the opinion the malinois is headed in the same direction. That many dogs out there are already having issues making the jumps among other issues.
> 
> To a certain extent it's an issue with our society. I was with a buddy in downtown Raleigh a few weeks ago and we had a malinois off leash with no collar or control devices of any type. The dog was holding a down stay as we ate in front of it and then contact heeled whenever he moved anywhere despite tons of distraction. A woman, seeing all of this comes up to comment and what does she say? Oh what an obedient well behaved dog? Nope. Oh what a beautiful dog! Form over function. It's a problem.


I do that all the time but I always get the "much better behaved than my dog" line


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## hunterisgreat

My, shall we say, mentor, once told me "prey drive is lust in the dogs mind" I think when training one can see this analogy fits well. Infact it's not surprising to me that my dog has recently been humping his giant stuffed (used to be anyway) panda while playing... Different feeling but both dumps of pleasurable chemicals in the brain.


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## David Winners

Cliff, your last post made me think of this video and what a balanced dog looks like, IMO.


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## lhczth

David Winners said:


> IMO, there is a need for SF caliber dogs in particular operational environments. I think the place to look for these dogs is in the mal and Dutch dogs currently bed for this type of work. In my limited understanding of the GSD as a whole, *I think it is a mistake to try and breed a GSD to fit the mold already filled by other breeds. *
> 
> *I think that the value and strength of a balanced utility dog is overshadowed in some people's mind by the impressive way that a dog with an overabundance of prey drive works in certain situations. Sometimes a specialist is called for, and this role is filled. Many times a general practitioner that is good at all things will be better suited to life as a working partner.*


:thumbup: Thank you!!


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## pam

My hope for this breed is that through the shared experiences of respected end-users such as David Winners and of breeders such as Lee, Carmen and Cliff, both buyers and breeders will start to examine what is needed vs what they want. A solid, balanced dog with appropriate natural aggression and high levels of biddability is so difficult to find. Add to that the really good breeder's challenge of finding bloodlines to avoid the genetic bottleneck created by all those who choose the easy path or who just do not understand the importance of pedigrees and what they provide in terms of genetic information and it is a wonder that these very important breeders carry on. Schutzhund is teaching me many things about my dogs, but I also see the same misguided thought processes I did when competing in the horse world--if one animal with certain characteristics wins, then more and more of the same characteristic based on the same bloodlines must be better. Because of the sheer volume of animals available from this pool, one sees more winners. But few are looking at the total picture--the masses of animals that are unsuitable for much of anything because of the extremes of one characteristic that are not balanced by those that make it possible for anyone to live with that dog as a partner every day. While I understand the frustration the truly focused and uncompromising breeders face, my purpose is to let them know that there are individuals who actively seek them out, constantly try to learn from them and support their programs. Thank you for staying the course and preserving this incredible breed!


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## carmspack

thanks - recognize that there are other breeders not mentioned in the list , Lisa included .


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## carmspack

limited on time , more later , in the meantime thank you Cliff for these words "The beauty of the video with Gero was the way he examined his environment from all sides and perspectives UNTIL the threat appeared....with over the top prey dog it is too easy for dog to get fixated on single object. Oblivious to that point to anything else......sometimes there are multiple threats







......well not in IPO, but in life and other sports. "


That is precisely why I offered that video of Gero . That dog is so confident , he can turn his back to the people and just exist in the environment that is happening . He is neutral to the people as it should be . 
A "prey monkey" would be focused to an extreme , "crazy eyes" waiting to push so that there is an opening to respond in prey . Like the border collie who breathes on my heels and nips when I walk -- the dog who barks so the decoy will move . To stimulate so there can be a reaction.
Locked in prey. Can't see the bigger picture , can't release to attend other threats . 
That is why I mention Le Roy . Young dog , told to guard the object , a truck which was not even "his" . Spontaneous join in 3 decoys working the dog , with a barrage of garden chairs thrown at him, and threat . The dog has to decide who to attend to first and stay with the object , within a range.

so later


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## björn

Porter seems nice, more like a nice balanced GSDI guess the question is how much priority is placed nowadays on composure, clear head and general a balanced mind/traits in a workingdog, are we forgetting the good thing from the past in the rapid develoment in training and more and more extreme performances in sport and maybe also trying to reinvent the wheel with different tests and new modern terminology that doesn´t mean much if a person don´t understand how all things like nerves, prey, aggresion etc are connected and affect the dogs suitability for a certain job. 

Prey/fightingdrive is crucial for the policedog besides the bitework for not quit on a long track or search but we also know much of these traits also can make the dog overboil in excitement and stressful behaviours we don´t want due to the high expectations the dog get on preyrewards or bitework, I mean for a dog with strong prey/fightingdrive this is really fun and in his mind he probably thinks YES, I want more of that fun ball/toy or the fun struggle/fight with the bad guy or decoy I had the last time I was doing this. 

The whining less quiet GSD that was mentioned may also be a consequence of this, dogs who are more easily excited and have lots of intensity and drive get more easily frustrated and stressed if their nerves can´t deal with the balance between "playtime" and the demand from the handler on concentration and focus, thus there is a conflict between this outside pressure from the handler and the inner stress this creates in the dog and we see more of these whining and easly excited dogs that seems pretty common nowadays in GSDs. The same for the policedog, the strongnerved dog is better suited to deal with the stressfull events it faces in the work and how this pressure from the outside is affecting the inside/mind of the dog.

Speaking of GSDs vs mals, one thing I don´t like in some IPO GSDs is it seems their fightingdrive and aggresion seems replaced by only holding onto the sleeve and then not much else is happening, sure the dog can have real nice entry and speed but it seems the fightingpart of the preydrive is reduced to mainly catching and holding the sleeve, the lack of a confident and dominant aggresion in the bark and hold seems also been compensated by a more frenzied behaviour created by training, more frustration and stress than a powerfull and dominant looking dog if you ask me. Even if some malinois uses mainly their large preydrive and not so much aggresion they still seems to have a more "complete" preydrive, intense both in running after and catching the prey but also intense in fighting with the prey/man when they are onto the bite.

I think strong prey/fightingdrve is an asset, but as the author of the article I spoke of wanted to say, is is wise to replace strong nerves, courage and a sound aggresion with prey/fightingdrive and speed/intensity above all? He also pointed out nerves are the hardest to breed for but also the most important because it is the base/core of all the other traits, many problems people in the society have with dogs is also due to aggresion, hence it´s important to know if a certain dog has a confident and sound balanced aggresion, or is it more a fearbased form combined with not the best nerves, such dogs is often difficult for people to handle.

So to sum up,yes strong prey and fightingdrive is good, but don´t forget there is more to a dog than that, even if you need fightingdrive like a "pitbull" for a SF dog, how many people needs a dog who only should take out a bad guy on long distance and then get pryed of the bite? This seems like a small market, or? For the GSD I think strong hunt/trackingability combined with a nice balance between prey/fightingdrive and some confident powerfull aggression may be less usefull than focusing on extreme level of prey/fight and intensity. I like this PSD, he has a nice blend of good tracking/searchabilities, good prey and fightingdrive and you can rely on him not backing down(according to the handler) when needed but not the kind of dog that jumps 4 meters before the decoy in a couragtest without any stop. Also can handle a normal familiylife when not working, this is for me a nice type compared with the fast but to sporty GSDs or the ones who have preydrive in extreme level and hence maybe more of a specialist for a certain job, the black and tan dog with the female handler doing some training in a serie about policedogs, also been used some in breedings here,

Lagens långa nos - Del 1 av 5 | SVT Play


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## Vandal

Prey drive is not simply "lust". It is in all dogs in varying degrees. I really do not think prey drive is the problem. It is what else is not in the dogs. Things like courage, nerves etc. I can agree that training and how IPO is trained now, adds a great deal to what people "think" they are seeing. I can just say that I have worked dogs who looked simply AWFUL due to what the helper was not bringing out of that dog. Once I was able to "activate it", the dog changed dramatically. Mostly now, the dogs are started too young. The prey drive is activated because that is all most young dogs and puppies have to work with. Many helpers are simply not capable of bringing up all the drives in the work or they resort to pain because they just don't have what is necessary inside.
The helpers now are "specialists" in that they can repeat the ideas behind protection work but are really only capable of going through the motions. They bore the dogs, can't trigger the components of fight drive and can really make very good dogs look like crap. The best GSDs will escalate but they look at some of these helpers and wonder if those people are enough of a problem to bite or even bark at. I sure hope that makes sense. I have tried to train LOTS of helpers and only a few have struck me as having what it takes to really work a dog . IPO is NOT SchH, and SchH has not been SchH for quite a few years now. Police dogs and training has changed drastically over the years as well. I see lots of Police dogs who work on the largest depts in the world. They are not much more special than the sport dogs we see now. Just sayin.......

Many people training in IPO do not understand dogs who show suspicion or aggressive behaviors at a young age, (or ever), and will dismiss them as "nervy" because their primary drive is not prey drive. That doesn't mean that they don't have prey drive however. We started using the prey instinct to help those very serious dogs years ago. It was never intended to be a case where the majority of the work was prey based. It was to relieve a bit of the pressure that came from work that was all about taking on a man. It has changed to being mostly about taking on the sleeve. 

My first dog was an experiment in prey work. Of course, we did it wrong. In SchH, the dog was pretty much about the sleeve and would channel the pressure from the helper into that sleeve. I had some very skilled helpers work him later on and it always came down to the dog taking the pressure out by thrashing the sleeve. This was in 1980. He had all those great dogs people talk about within his five generation pedigree. In real life, that dog was dead serious. Quite socially aggressive and very protective. He stopped a car jacking. I had zero doubt that dog would really do something if necessary. My point is, I know you can take a very good dog like he was and make him look like a so called "prey monkey". 
We need helpers who understand how to get to the traits we want to see and then balance the training. Those people were never present in great numbers and what has evolved over the years with IPO is making them even more scarce. None of this is as simple as people make it seem. That is the limitation of a forum. Much of this you simply have to see to really understand and people need to realize that having a feel for animals, the ability to read them, will always be necessary vs these formulas people promote both in training and in breeding.


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## carmspack

better put Vandal on that list too "My hope for this breed is that through the shared experiences of respected end-users such as David Winners and of breeders such as Lee, Carmen and Cliff, both buyers and breeders will start to examine what is needed vs what they want. A solid, balanced dog with appropriate natural aggression and high levels of biddability is so difficult to find." (and Lisa)


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## Vandal

I apprecaite your comment Carmen but I just would like to clarify what my purpose has been when I do post. I not saying any of what I say here to be put on a list of special breeders. I am scaling down dramatically as far as breeding goes. 

My goal has always been to help people understand the dogs. The internet has given more than a few people a bigger platform than they have earned. I breed dogs for me, not to impress the people in SchH. For years, I refused to place dogs in SchH homes because of the vast amount of ignorance. It is ten times worse today and the dogs are moved around like baseball cards because few seem willing to give their dog the time, (and the training/ understanding), they need. 
We have much more fear in today's dog world and the people all seem to over-react at just about everything their dog does. It is very sad for the breed and for the dogs. Pretty much giving up on trying to help people understand. I am completely outnumbered and the brainwashing of today's younger people has been quite effective. Only a very few seem to get it and it will get worse due to the activities of Animal Rights fanatics and those people only looking to make money or boost their ego.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

pam said:


> Schutzhund is teaching me many things about my dogs, but I also see the same misguided thought processes I did when competing in the horse world--if one animal with certain characteristics wins, then more and more of the same characteristic based on the same bloodlines must be better..... Thank you for staying the course and preserving this incredible breed!


I wish to echo what Pam has posted. I have NO experience in Schutzhund, did show in obedience briefly years ago (I was too busy training and showing horses), although I have obedience-trained ALL my canines. This thread has been so great, even though my appreciation undoubtedly is not on the level of those here who train and compete. However, I can wholeheartedly relate to what Pam describes as the misguided thought process in the horse world. I trained predominately Arabians, but have experience with most light-horse breeds in this country. I have seen those who breed Arabs with size and gaits similar to the Saddlebred, ditto with Morgans (and never mind the great temperaments both breeds originally had), color breeds that have no brain, Quarter horses heading down the same direction, Thoroughbreds with no thought but to run, even with the pain of a catastrophic injury...

To see the same things happening with GSDs is disheartening. I, too, want to commend those of you who are standing firm against such idiocy.


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## Blanketback

Vandal said:


> We have much more fear in today's dog world and the people all seem to over-react at just about everything their dog does. It is very sad for the breed and for the dogs. Pretty much giving up on trying to help people understand. I am completely outnumbered and the brainwashing of today's younger people has been quite effective. Only a very few seem to get it and it will get worse due to the activities of Animal Rights fanatics and those people only looking to make money or boost their ego.


Please don't give up, or give in. The world needs to hear from people who actually _know_ about things. It's quality vs quantity and even though those others might have the 'quantity' advantage, they'll only win if the 'quality' isn't there to compare them to.


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## David Winners

After having long conversations with an accomplished herding trainer that also trains in IPO, I believe that the qualities I seek out in a GSD are found in herding lines. As Carmen stated, the willingness to work with the handler outside the "give you the finger" range, the drive to accomplish the task no matter how long that may take, the attentiveness to the handler while remaining independent and making choices, the ability to handle pressure while remaining calm and focused, and the satisfaction the dog gets out of working for the sake of work.

I believe these are necessary and prevalent traits in the herding dog.

These same qualities translate to a good pet, detection dog, protection dog and companion. I'm am uneducated in what lines being these attributes to the breeding table, but it is logical to me that sustaining these qualities in our dogs should include breeding tests that challenge these attributes specifically. But it's not flashy...

It has always bothered me that service dogs (LE, SAR, MIL) spend far more time using their noses than their teeth, but there is no test for this trait in SchH. The tracking phase is obedience, not hunt. Police K9 departments are often funded by seizures that are directly related to detection, but where is this vital skill tested today? Detection dogs are the primary defence against IEDs, the number one taker of lives in war over the last 10 years. Detection dogs clear miles of road in a day. What test is currently addressing this necessity in working dogs? If they don't have it, we wash them out.

Nosework is primarily pet handlers and trainers. Are there working dog breeders that take Nosework seriously?

I believe hunt to be linked to prey drive, as was stated earlier, but one can exist without the other. Most detection dogs are selected for toy obsession. That is all fine and well if you are searching a few cars and then getting back in the squad car. Toy drive doesn't cut it when it's 110 degrees and you are 2 miles into a 4 mile route clearance and there is no shade.

This is where I believe the dog that will herd, fight, hunt, think and live to do it excels. Going out and working with it's handler because the dog wants to, not for a Kong.

Show me how to sustain this and I will do it. How do you explain this to people that watch the first half of a 20 second video and judge the dog? What venue displays this character that defines the GSD to the public?

People used to see good dogs in passing, or at work, and inquire about the dog. Now people are glued to the monitor watching highlights. That is not the dog any more than watching me shoot a rifle is me. It is an important skill, but far from encompassing my capabilities.

What do we do?



David Winners


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## David Winners

I apologize for the lack of quotes or credit given to previous posters in the above post. I'm on my phone and it is difficult to review previous posts while composing.

David Winners


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## Merciel

David Winners said:


> Nosework is primarily pet handlers and trainers. Are there working dog breeders that take Nosework seriously?


I haven't really seen any, which seems a pity to me, since it seems like it could potentially be useful for increasing people's awareness of what this type of work looks like and their appreciation for dogs who can do it well.

From what I've seen (which is of course only one small corner of the dog world, and not especially GSD-centric), Nosework isn't even something that sport/performance breeders are taking seriously yet. It's usually pitched as something fun and relatively easy that you can do with your pet dog (or, to the sport people, as a recreational activity for your retired performance dogs) and don't need a "special" dog to participate in.

However, it's also gaining popularity pretty quickly in my corner of the world, and whenever something starts to get popular it also starts to get more competitive, so I would not be surprised to see Nosework start to move in that direction over the next five to ten years.


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## gsdsar

David Winners said:


> After having long conversations with an accomplished herding trainer that also trains in IPO, I believe that the qualities I seek out in a GSD are found in herding lines. As Carmen stated, the willingness to work with the handler outside the "give you the finger" range, the drive to accomplish the task no matter how long that may take, the attentiveness to the handler while remaining independent and making choices, the ability to handle pressure while remaining calm and focused, and the satisfaction the dog gets out of working for the sake of work.
> 
> I believe these are necessary and prevalent traits in the herding dog.
> 
> These same qualities translate to a good pet, detection dog, protection dog and companion. I'm am uneducated in what lines being these attributes to the breeding table, but it is logical to me that sustaining these qualities in our dogs should include breeding tests that challenge these attributes specifically. But it's not flashy...
> 
> It has always bothered me that service dogs (LE, SAR, MIL) spend far more time using their noses than their teeth, but there is no test for this trait in SchH. The tracking phase is obedience, not hunt. Police K9 departments are often funded by seizures that are directly related to detection, but where is this vital skill tested today? Detection dogs are the primary defence against IEDs, the number one taker of lives in war over the last 10 years. Detection dogs clear miles of road in a day. What test is currently addressing this necessity in working dogs? If they don't have it, we wash them out.
> 
> Nosework is primarily pet handlers and trainers. Are there working dog breeders that take Nosework seriously?
> 
> I believe hunt to be linked to prey drive, as was stated earlier, but one can exist without the other. Most detection dogs are selected for toy obsession. That is all fine and well if you are searching a few cars and then getting back in the squad car. Toy drive doesn't cut it when it's 110 degrees and you are 2 miles into a 4 mile route clearance and there is no shade.
> 
> This is where I believe the dog that will herd, fight, hunt, think and live to do it excels. Going out and working with it's handler because the dog wants to, not for a Kong.
> 
> Show me how to sustain this and I will do it. How do you explain this to people that watch the first half of a 20 second video and judge the dog? What venue displays this character that defines the GSD to the public?
> 
> People used to see good dogs in passing, or at work, and inquire about the dog. Now people are glued to the monitor watching highlights. That is not the dog any more than watching me shoot a rifle is me. It is an important skill, but far from encompassing my capabilities.
> 
> What do we do?
> 
> 
> 
> David Winners



Love this post!!!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## David Winners

There is so much to consider in this thread.

The difference between over pronounced prey drive and lack of nerve; is the cup overflowing or does it have a hole? The decline or cessation of fight against the handler through frequent early tug training that encourages calmness. The selection of breeding dogs for specific qualities while ignoring others for marketability. Early unbalanced imprinting on toy rewards potentially creating hectic behavior in a genetically stable dog.

I hope this thread is just beginning, or at least is A beginning.

David Winners


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## Baillif

There are the sulimov dogs being bred to be super detection dogs in Russia. Id suspect others are probably doing this as well but not necessarily with shepherds. 

As for the other stuff there are great breeders out there acting as vanguards for the breed and certain lines within the breeds and while that wont ever be enough for the breeds in question as a whole it provides a place for those of us with the interest the money and the time to find the dogs we need for whatever we need them for.


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## carmspack

"I apprecaite your comment Carmen but I just would like to clarify what my purpose has been when I do post. I not saying any of what I say here to be put on a list of special breeders." 

I could not let that list stand without your name on it. Out of respect for your knowledge , and your dogs .

"" I am scaling down dramatically as far as breeding goes. "
And Vandal , so am I !! 
Not over and out though, and hope you are not either .

Just a different venue, arm's length, consulting , managing working breeding programs and the occasional lease of one of my own , either incorporating or adding new blood. Maybe once every 18 months to 2 years - have my cake and eat it too . Too much in my blood . Too much love for the breed .

That gives me the time like yourself "My goal has always been to help people understand the dogs." Hope it makes a little splash in the bucket . 
The people who knew the dogs back then or had direct contact to the generation before that created and worked those dogs are disappearing .

There is not one thing in your post that I would not print in bold and wear on a T shirt --

When a judge tells you people don't know dogs anymore , and that sadly the sport is about ego (or other compensation) that some don't even like dogs - why would you want to participate?

Horses. Yes have experience there too . Had a Morgan , such a pretty mare -- but spooky --- would back up , spin , rear , refuse to go forward if the leaves in the silver aspen fluttered . 
Shortly after I had some pretty bad back injuries so the horse was rehomed.
Years after , as part of the therapy I choose natural gaited horses . I got very brave Rocky Mountain horses , pasture fed and pasture bred . A mare , Shadow , who is on news footage swimming through a raging flooding stream to bring back part of her herd that were stranded on the island. She came with a filly at her side . That filly Dewbie (Duggans Mountain Dew) was / is the epitome of the breed character "born broke" . When Dewbie was just over a year I could put my grand daughter , age 3 , at the time on her back and have them hang out , myself at side. If I walked the horse very slowly walked beside me . Both mare and filly were red roan . 
Since they were "new" to the area ,I had a lot of very curious visitors come check them out. 
A year later the mare , who I had bred in Kentucky before trailering her up here, delivered a chocolate filly with the signature flaxen mane and tail. Same mare , related stallion -- yet offers of $8,000 more just because of the colour. I was told by experts that I had assembled the finest band of brood mares --- had two more foals that went to a horse whisperer who worked with a native American who had the real old stock gaited shufflers appaloosa 



 . He was a whisperer (before Monty Roberts and Nicholas Sparks book and the Reford movie) . My dear friend has passed away . His wife runs a much scaled down version of the trail riding facility . There are still some of my horses there and there are still some of the disappearing genetics of the Indian shuffler on her property. She does hold seminars with native American horse whisperers -- magicians to my eye . 
What went south and why I stopped out of protest is that people caught on , just like the GSD became popular and brought to ruin , (more than once) , and the greed factor for this stunning COLOR of the contrasting chocolate and the platinum mane and tail made for very bad breeding decisions based on the likelihood of that color being born .
soon you had horses that had moon blindness , and horses that needed weights or boots because they no longer had the natural gait, you had up headed flighty horses , you had horses with feet that were not healthy. The temperament was not the same . The were not Sam Tuttles horse any more --- and I was not going to contribute . 
Commerce and greed ruins things. 
poop


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## onyx'girl

vote for this thread to be a sticky...so much information imbedded!


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## carmspack

David Winners said:


> After having long conversations with an accomplished herding trainer that also trains in IPO, I believe that the qualities I seek out in a GSD are found in herding lines. As Carmen stated, the willingness to work with the handler outside the "give you the finger" range, the drive to accomplish the task no matter how long that may take, the attentiveness to the handler while remaining independent and making choices, the ability to handle pressure while remaining calm and focused, and the satisfaction the dog gets out of working for the sake of work.
> 
> I believe these are necessary and prevalent traits in the herding dog.
> 
> These same qualities translate to a good pet, detection dog, protection dog and companion. I'm am uneducated in what lines being these attributes to the breeding table, but it is logical to me that sustaining these qualities in our dogs should include breeding tests that challenge these attributes specifically. But it's not flashy...
> 
> It has always bothered me that service dogs (LE, SAR, MIL) spend far more time using their noses than their teeth, but there is no test for this trait in SchH. The tracking phase is obedience, not hunt. Police K9 departments are often funded by seizures that are directly related to detection, but where is this vital skill tested today? Detection dogs are the primary defence against IEDs, the number one taker of lives in war over the last 10 years. Detection dogs clear miles of road in a day. What test is currently addressing this necessity in working dogs? If they don't have it, we wash them out.
> 
> Nosework is primarily pet handlers and trainers. Are there working dog breeders that take Nosework seriously?
> 
> I believe hunt to be linked to prey drive, as was stated earlier, but one can exist without the other. Most detection dogs are selected for toy obsession. That is all fine and well if you are searching a few cars and then getting back in the squad car. Toy drive doesn't cut it when it's 110 degrees and you are 2 miles into a 4 mile route clearance and there is no shade.
> 
> This is where I believe the dog that will herd, fight, hunt, think and live to do it excels. Going out and working with it's handler because the dog wants to, not for a Kong.
> 
> Show me how to sustain this and I will do it. How do you explain this to people that watch the first half of a 20 second video and judge the dog? What venue displays this character that defines the GSD to the public?
> 
> People used to see good dogs in passing, or at work, and inquire about the dog. Now people are glued to the monitor watching highlights. That is not the dog any more than watching me shoot a rifle is me. It is an important skill, but far from encompassing my capabilities.
> 
> What do we do?
> 
> 
> 
> David Winners




what is going on today ! I would print Vandal's post on my Tee shirt and Davids (too large) would go on a wall banner or table cloth. All he said -- go see genetic obedience.

Did you see Lenz Dolderbrunnen , was that not a very happy dog , taking delight in acting in partnership , co ordinating an effort . His obedience was not hard robotic , decisions had to be made by the dog in how to accomplish something . Ulf, the shepherd would ask him to make a corner . The dog had to decide where he should place himself to best achieve this. He responded to a normal conversational tone , not commands , requests, do this for me dog , no better, please wider, come closer . When the dog was a bit enthusiastic a sharp pfui and the dog repels away from his infraction as it a trap had snapped in front of him. He doesn't back away from proceeding as he should . 
That is how sensitive the dog is to the handler . Which is not submissive . The praise is flowing , the "smile" in the voice , the jah wohl 's , the that's good , or my fine , so fine, good choice -- but an oral signal to the dog he is doing okay . 
I would faint if someone were to comment , but the man had to give more than one command -- . 

the Schutzhund tracking is an obedience exercise , that has nothing to do with hunt/search which is part of the prey package .

here is young Kaden , about 10 weeks of age in the heat of the summer 



 part two 
the co-ordinated look for it --- stuck in a deep tangle -- 
working quietly -- teamwork




 
this dog now well under way in training program for scent detection along with is older brother Nicholas , littermates Arthur and Mercer.


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## meldy

The wording on this question hopefully comes across as clear English...I'm struggling a little to figure out how to verbalized what I want to ask.

There's been talk on here of essentially polar opposite gsd's. Dogs that work with a specific handler and work more due to sort of the bond they have with their person and dogs that work with everyone and just want to go to work (I want to say in an obsessive way but I think that's too basic for what I am trying to convey) 
What I'm wondering is where the old herding types fit? There's a video on here of a dog (I'm on my phone so can't scroll back) that is standing in a group of men and is used as a example of dogs that turn off well. To me that looks like a dog that doesn't care. He could care less about the guy he's with or anyone else in that group. If that's the case why are dogs in obedience obsessively focused on their person. They give the impression that they can't take their eyes off the handler. 
To me those seem to be the two extremes but the obsessive dogs are the ones at trial. Is that part of the on/off switch? On they're handler obsessed and off they're happy to just stand around? 

I seriously hope that half makes sense...my phone and this forum only half agree with each other lol so I'm a little limited as far as trying to edit what I've written


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## DaniFani

meldy said:


> The wording on this question hopefully comes across as clear English...I'm struggling a little to figure out how to verbalized what I want to ask.
> 
> Dogs that work with a specific handler and work more due to sort of the bond they have with their person and dogs that work with everyone and just want to go to work (I want to say in an obsessive way but I think that's too basic for what I am trying to convey)
> What I'm wondering is where the old herding types fit? There's a video on here of a dog (I'm on my phone so can't scroll back) that is standing in a group of men and is used as a example of dogs that turn off well. To me that looks like a dog that doesn't care. He could care less about the guy he's with or anyone else in that group. If that's the case why are dogs in obedience obsessively focused on their person. They give the impression that they can't take their eyes off the handler.
> To me those seem to be the two extremes but the obsessive dogs are the ones at trial. Is that part of the on/off switch? On they're handler obsessed and off they're happy to just stand around?
> 
> I seriously hope that half makes sense...my phone and this forum only half agree with each other lol so I'm a little limited as far as trying to edit what I've written


Honestly, the best way to learn about dogs is to watch a lot of them work. Join or attend clubs/groups, in any/all venues. You can start to see the different situations, characteristics, and personalities in the different breeds and the lines within those breeds. You can read until your eyes glaze over, the real learning and retention happens when you can put dogs you've seen into the different vocabulary and categories you are trying to. You will soon learn, that a lot of dogs fit into multiple categories, based on different training, handlers, etc....


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## lhczth

Hunt drive is something that we do have to test for on our own. The FH1 and 2 do test much more for these than the IPO1-3 tracks. The latter can be helpful when something other than perfect terrain is used. Then there are some of us that still believe in developing tracking dogs and not just doing nose obedience. The former has a purpose. The latter can be unreliable. 

I have training discussions fairly often with another breeder who doesn't have a ton of years in GSD. I have given up trying to explain that her dogs that never eat except on a track are not exhibiting high hunt. I guess in a way they are exhibiting a desire to hunt for their food, but I want to see a dog that works his rear off on a track whether he is well fed, it is 100 degrees out or the track is through terrible terrain and the dog is tired.


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## gsdsar

lhczth said:


> Hunt drive is something that we do have to test for on our own. The FH1 and 2 do test much more for these than the IPO1-3 tracks. The latter can be helpful when something other than perfect terrain is used. Then there are some of us that still believe in developing tracking dogs and not just doing nose obedience. The former has a purpose. The latter can be unreliable.
> 
> I have training discussions fairly often with another breeder who doesn't have a ton of years in GSD. I have given up trying to explain that her dogs that never eat except on a track are not exhibiting high hunt. I guess in a way they are exhibiting a desire to hunt for their food, but I want to see a dog that works his rear off on a track whether he is well fed, it is 100 degrees out or the track is through terrible terrain and the dog is tired.



Could that not also be a lack of work ethic? How is that tested, cause I know plenty of high drive dogs that have zero work within. Unusable in real world work. But may get through the very short sport routines it takes more than strong drive to work in some circumstances. 


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## Baillif

You can tell which ones have the ethic and which ones dont. They push anything work related you have them do to the point you find yourself having to stop the dog out of fear for its health and safety (on the extreme side of the spectrum). Ive noticed this is often correletive with high drives and/or energy level but not always.

Dogs that push even when eyes are bloodshot from oxygen debt. Theres a certain mental toughness in there genetically.


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## Blitzkrieg1

meldy said:


> The wording on this question hopefully comes across as clear English...I'm struggling a little to figure out how to verbalized what I want to ask.
> 
> There's been talk on here of essentially polar opposite gsd's. Dogs that work with a specific handler and work more due to sort of the bond they have with their person and dogs that work with everyone and just want to go to work (I want to say in an obsessive way but I think that's too basic for what I am trying to convey)
> What I'm wondering is where the old herding types fit? There's a video on here of a dog (I'm on my phone so can't scroll back) that is standing in a group of men and is used as a example of dogs that turn off well. To me that looks like a dog that doesn't care. He could care less about the guy he's with or anyone else in that group. If that's the case why are dogs in obedience obsessively focused on their person. They give the impression that they can't take their eyes off the handler.
> To me those seem to be the two extremes but the obsessive dogs are the ones at trial. Is that part of the on/off switch? On they're handler obsessed and off they're happy to just stand around?
> 
> I seriously hope that half makes sense...my phone and this forum only half agree with each other lol so I'm a little limited as far as trying to edit what I've written


Dogs in trial are trained in drive and thus have that "obsessive" focus in their on field obedience. They are trained that way.
The same dog can look completely different in day to day obedience. My personal dog is learning two sets of commands. One is for IPO all in drive and with flash the other is for day to day life, much less flash more normal expression.


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## carmspack

since I'm the person that contributed that video , I'll answer the question .
meldy quote "There's a video on here of a dog (I'm on my phone so can't scroll back) that is standing in a group of men and is used as a example of dogs that turn off well."

xxxx that dog is a Czech dog by the name of Gero. The post was to show calm , relaxed, normal , dogs with no concerns minding their own business "The old lines were quiet . It seemed the more confident they were the less likely they were going to bark on the hold , but they held.
Not this screaming mess . 
Here is a dog that epitomizes that , "

He doesn't care ! those men don't concern him. He is not friendly to them or seeking , needing their attention. He is not worried by them, so he can turn his back and just "be" in the environment , which is neutral , as is he . He should be no other way . 

this "He could care less about the guy he's with" however is wrong . Had one of those men moved closer the dog would have watched him.
Caring and being available is not a fixation . There is a difference between being connected and being dependant . 


meldy being quoted "
. If that's the case why are dogs in obedience obsessively focused on their person. "

xxxx often they are not , as seen after the performance . There are all sorts of focus tricks . At one point it was cheek full of hot dogs that were spit out to the dog when the dog focused on the face. Then it was a ball tucked under the chin , then a ball that is released from a secret pocket. That is the disappointing thing it is a performance for the prancing , focus . I raised that point elsewhere commenting on an Elmar Mannes interview where he questioned the rationale of some of the extremes that scoring (deductions) has taken the sport for the sake of points and how the selection and breeding of dogs was changing because of it . Here you go http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...5602-schutzhund-vs-protection-training-9.html

meldy continues "They give the impression that they can't take their eyes off the handler. 
To me those seem to be the two extremes but the obsessive dogs are the ones at trial. Is that part of the on/off switch? On they're handler obsessed and off they're happy to just stand around? "

Impossible to sustain in the long run . No practical use . Rather a relatively new "thing" .


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## carmspack

bailiff I call that the "fire in the belly"


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## gsdsar

Baillif said:


> You can tell which ones have the ethic and which ones dont. They push anything work related you have them do to the point you find yourself having to stop the dog out of fear for its health and safety (on the extreme side of the spectrum). Ive noticed this is often correletive with high drives and/or energy level but not always.
> 
> Dogs that push even when eyes are bloodshot from oxygen debt. Theres a certain mental toughness in there genetically.



I disagree. That is not work ethic. That is a dog who is unable to regulate. Plenty of ball crazy dogs will fetch themselves into heat stroke. 

When I think if work ethic, I can only put it into a frame if reference I know, SAR. I can work my dogs on problems that range from 15 minutes to 8 hours, these dogs have to have the ability to switch themselves in and out of drive, but continue to work. If I am working a large wilderness sector, I don't want my dog to be "high" hunt drive for 4-6 hours, but I do want them to keep working. They switch out of drive, while moving as I ask, until they pick up scent, then hunt kicks back in. Dogs cannot sustain that high level of intense drive for a full days work. But that does not mean they stop working . That's work ethic. 

Then again, I also don't want a dog so toy crazy they jump off a cliff for the ball. That's not workable, that's unclear drive and dangerous. But that is what I see in what I do. 


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## Baillif

Wasnt talking about fetch. I know what youre talking about though. Ive seen that too.


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## lhczth

Sam, I agree. I think a lot of these things are intertwined and if we lose one thing we lose the others too. 

I wish I could get to my emails on my old computer. Years ago there was a great discussion with a working BC person. He pointed out one specific trait that when lost in the BC it causes a break down of the entire "system". The dog might still herd, but it will not work the way it should.


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## mycobraracr

This thread has been amazing! Thanks to all that participate.


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## mycobraracr

meldy said:


> If that's the case why are dogs in obedience obsessively focused on their person. They give the impression that they can't take their eyes off the handler.
> To me those seem to be the two extremes but the obsessive dogs are the ones at trial. Is that part of the on/off switch? On they're handler obsessed and off they're happy to just stand around?
> 
> I seriously hope that half makes sense...my phone and this forum only half agree with each other lol so I'm a little limited as far as trying to edit what I've written




Here is a video of my fiance and our dog Heidi. In this video you can see her intense focus and it appears nothing else in the world matters. In all reality, it's a trained behavior. Take this dog for a casual walk around the block or on a trip to the store and she will barely glance at Kiersten. She is still "in-tune" to Kiersten, following her every move. Just not locked eye to eye. Heidi (the dog) is more looking areound and trying to process things. It's very important when watching a dog on the trial field to be able to discern between trained behavior and what's at the core of the dog. 
Kiersten and Heidi 2 2 14 - YouTube


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## RocketDog

I think this is a great thread. It has so much value-- especially so I think for people who are not years into the breed. I only wish I had known a few years ago the huge differences in lines. I still think the GSD as it used to be is out there and good dogs can be had in all lines, but it's still very different than it used to be. 

For me, the biggest thing is I grew up living next to a German woman who always had two GSD's. They were very impressive to a young girl who had an affinity for dogs. She used to tell me all about them, about all the things they were capable of doing, this and that. She always had me be very careful around them, because I was a child not of their home, but they seemed to always be friendly to us neighborhood kids. They were neutral to my parents though. There were a couple of other GSD's I grew up around (down the street) that also seemed exactly the same. I mean, a GSD was just a certain way. There wasn't this worry about 'are you getting what you think you're getting'. (I'm sure there were still nervy dogs).

I don't think I'm explaining this well but my point is, when I started searching for my GSD in 2011, I didn't realize they weren't all still like those dogs of my childhood. This is always what I will think of and want in a GSD. The quiet, serious, intelligent, bonded to handler, capable of anything, protective dog.


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## marbury

mycobraracr said:


> This thread has been amazing! Thanks to all that participate.


This! It's been fascinating, a really engaging read. Thank you!


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> Prey drive is not simply "lust". It is in all dogs in varying degrees. I really do not think prey drive is the problem. It is what else is not in the dogs. Things like courage, nerves etc. I can agree that training and how IPO is trained now, adds a great deal to what people "think" they are seeing. I can just say that I have worked dogs who looked simply AWFUL due to what the helper was not bringing out of that dog. Once I was able to "activate it", the dog changed dramatically. Mostly now, the dogs are started too young. The prey drive is activated because that is all most young dogs and puppies have to work with. Many helpers are simply not capable of bringing up all the drives in the work or they resort to pain because they just don't have what is necessary inside.
> 
> Many people training in IPO do not understand dogs who show suspicion or aggressive behaviors at a young age, (or ever), and will dismiss them as "nervy" because their primary drive is not prey drive. That doesn't mean that they don't have prey drive however. We started using the prey instinct to help those very serious dogs years ago. It was never intended to be a case where the majority of the work was prey based. It was to relieve a bit of the pressure that came from work that was all about taking on a man. It has changed to being mostly about taking on the sleeve.


Not lust, but just lustful, or comparably to actual lust in the human mind.

I agree. Most in IPO don't like my male because he leans to aggression over prey. I think you've seen videos of him. With someone he knows it's all prey, with a stranger or decoy he works in aggression. In any video he's in he's never in defense.


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## meldy

RocketDog said:


> This is always what I will think of and want in a GSD. The quiet, serious, intelligent, bonded to handler, capable of anything, protective dog.


 
Exactly


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## meldy

mycobraracr said:


> Here is a video of my fiance and our dog Heidi. In this video you can see her intense focus and it appears nothing else in the world matters. In all reality, it's a trained behavior. Take this dog for a casual walk around the block or on a trip to the store and she will barely glance at Kiersten. She is still "in-tune" to Kiersten, following her every move. Just not locked eye to eye. Heidi (the dog) is more looking areound and trying to process things. It's very important when watching a dog on the trial field to be able to discern between trained behavior and what's at the core of the dog.
> Kiersten and Heidi 2 2 14 - YouTube


 
That's exactly what I was talking about! Thank you!


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## crackem

hunterisgreat said:


> I agree. Most in IPO don't like my male because he leans to aggression over prey. I think you've seen videos of him. With someone he knows it's all prey, with a stranger or decoy he works in aggression. In any video he's in he's never in defense.


"Most"?? who do you hang out with? I gotta say, I haven't met very many that don't like a dog that shows good aggression in it's work.


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## carmspack

question for you all then.
when did the air borne flying launch start (historically) and how does that translate to prey and fight .


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## hunterisgreat

crackem said:


> "Most"?? who do you hang out with? I gotta say, I haven't met very many that don't like a dog that shows good aggression in it's work.


Many are just scared of him. He has repeatedly been labeled "unpredictable", sometimes directly to me, almost always behind my back or outside of the field... despite never lunging, biting, or doing anything else to warrant such a label. He's actually my most predictable dog, and the one all my non-"dog people" friends trust. Also, police/military decoys, PSA folks think he's the cats' meow... just a pattern I noticed.


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> question for you all then.
> when did the air borne flying launch start (historically) and how does that translate to prey and fight .


My guess/opinion? It started with Mali's. Everyone loves a good bruce lee jump kick, and everyone loves an aerial courage test lol. 

I would guess it is only present in a heavily prey-induced state of mind, as it is putting oneself in a great deal of vulnerability to take all four legs off the ground. To me, its no different than what dock dogs do going after their tug, which we can safely assume is all prey lol


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## gsdsar

hunterisgreat said:


> My guess/opinion? It started with Mali's. Everyone loves a good bruce lee jump kick, and everyone loves an aerial courage test lol.
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess it is only present in a heavily prey-induced state of mind, as it is putting oneself in a great deal of vulnerability to take all four legs off the ground. To me, its no different than what dock dogs do going after their tug, which we can safely assume is all prey lol



Will a dog get fewer points if they don't do this? Or us it just a wow factor? For the crowd. 


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## hunterisgreat

gsdsar said:


> Will a dog get fewer points if they don't do this? Or us it just a wow factor? For the crowd.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Should be just a wow factor... however at the higher levels "style points" come in to play because hey, someone has to win.


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## crackem

hunterisgreat said:


> Many are just scared of him. He has repeatedly been labeled "unpredictable", sometimes directly to me, almost always behind my back or outside of the field... despite never lunging, biting, or doing anything else to warrant such a label. He's actually my most predictable dog, and the one all my non-"dog people" friends trust. Also, police/military decoys, PSA folks think he's the cats' meow... just a pattern I noticed.


May I suggest you find different IPO folks to train with. I've been around a while and have trained with a lot of people. I've certified dogs for more than a handful of PD's, worked with trainers in charge of testing and getting dogs for the DOD. One thing I've noticed is that most people that have been in IPO for a while have a better understanding of dogs than "non" dog people, and definitely more than police/military decoys. 

Those dogs are trained by someone that knows, and then once they're trained, the "military/police" decoys take over. They get in a suit, stand there and get bit, run and get bit, hide in things and get bit and spin and thrash and yell a lot  we train a new lot every time we train another dog for a PD and i wouldn't trust 95% of them to tell me anything about a dog.

I've trained with a lot of police folks, the handlers that really know their dogs? also took the time to really get into sport. I guess I'd have to say our experiences have been completely opposite. Most I know, can recognize and appreciate a good dog for what it has, aggression most definitely included.


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## crackem

carmspack said:


> question for you all then.
> when did the air borne flying launch start (historically) and how does that translate to prey and fight .


I don't know, is this an "on this date in history" moment 

beyond that, again, WHO CARES? it's one singular aspect. ONE. It can show commitment to a bite and prey drive. by itself it means not a lot. In a sport setting it can easily be trained in dogs with decent nerves and good drive, though I'd say if you take the ones that make people go ohh and ahh, you're going to find plenty of really good dogs with good drive and good balance.

How does it translate to "fight" or prey? I don't know, show me the dog. Show me the fight and drive before the long bite. Show me the transitions on the out. Show me a helper that takes the dog to the woodshed so to speak and then goes down the field for a long bite. Let me see the commitment, let me see the entry, let me see the drive and re-attack and the transitions and outs again. Then I'll have a better idea. Whether or not the dog launches or not? big deal, although i'd venture a guess that if you took 100 dogs that have great commitment and really launch, the majority are going to have a lot of the other traits that make a gsd a fine working animal.

it's no different than someone that tries to make the entire routine about freakin barking. It tells you something about a dog, it doesn't tell you everything.

WHo cares if they launch? it takes about 10 minutes to get them not too launch as well. Are they better dogs now? or just trained differently?


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## Merciel

crackem said:


> WHo cares if they launch?


Well, me for one.

I'm not yet active in IPO, but I currently have a really strong intention to _not_ get the aerial bite, because I've heard too many terrifying stories about dogs hurting themselves doing that.

If keeping the dog's feet on the ground offers any significant advantage in safety, then that's how I intend to train it. If that ends up costing a point or two, fine, I'll take the point hit.


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## meldy

Is the launch physically much different than when the guy in the suit or sleeve swings the dog around? 
(Isnt the launch also how Winners dog ripped off the bicep of that guy?)


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## crackem

Merciel said:


> Well, me for one.
> 
> I'm not yet active in IPO, but I currently have a really strong intention to _not_ get the aerial bite, because I've heard too many terrifying stories about dogs hurting themselves doing that.
> 
> If keeping the dog's feet on the ground offers any significant advantage in safety, then that's how I intend to train it. If that ends up costing a point or two, fine, I'll take the point hit.


Then i take it you haven't witness the dog that comes in blazing fast and low, doesn't commit to the sleeve till they are right underneath the helper and blows the whole thing up?

As a helper in a trial, give me the dog that launches 100 times out of 100. Safer for everybody involved. Trust me the dog that comes up underneath at 35+mph with no launch can be a real mother to catch safely. 

It's not the "launch" it's the speed. Dogs that don't have the commitment or speed don't launch, they can't LOL Not something i'd strive for myself


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## hunterisgreat

crackem said:


> May I suggest you find different IPO folks to train with. I've been around a while and have trained with a lot of people. I've certified dogs for more than a handful of PD's, worked with trainers in charge of testing and getting dogs for the DOD. One thing I've noticed is that most people that have been in IPO for a while have a better understanding of dogs than "non" dog people, and definitely more than police/military decoys.
> 
> Those dogs are trained by someone that knows, and then once they're trained, the "military/police" decoys take over. They get in a suit, stand there and get bit, run and get bit, hide in things and get bit and spin and thrash and yell a lot  we train a new lot every time we train another dog for a PD and i wouldn't trust 95% of them to tell me anything about a dog.
> 
> I've trained with a lot of police folks, the handlers that really know their dogs? also took the time to really get into sport. I guess I'd have to say our experiences have been completely opposite. Most I know, can recognize and appreciate a good dog for what it has, aggression most definitely included.


Its not an issue with *my* club. Everyone at my club is fine with him, they've grown to trust him after years with no incidents... I agree police handlers & trainers run the full spectrum of quality. One very well known trainer once said "You have a military or police style dog, not a sport dog". I totally agree that people in IPO have a better understanding than non dog people, however they also tend to get skewed towards prey monsters... when they do see a dog not in prey, its usually in defensive and actually a bit dangerous to be around. I've worked, and been bitten, by those types. They tend to lump all "non prey" into the negative kind of defense.

There are folks who very much see and appreciate what he is... but none of the ones that come to mind are "IPO folks"... most have huge experience in IPO, but then also have matching experience in other venues.


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## Merciel

crackem said:


> Then i take it you haven't witness the dog that comes in blazing fast and low, doesn't commit to the sleeve till they are right underneath the helper and blows the whole thing up?
> 
> As a helper in a trial, give me the dog that launches 100 times out of 100. Safer for everybody involved. Trust me the dog that comes up underneath at 35+mph with no launch can be a real mother to catch safely.
> 
> It's not the "launch" it's the speed. Dogs that don't have the commitment or speed don't launch, they can't LOL Not something i'd strive for myself


You are absolutely correct, I've never seen that (or if I have, I didn't recognize it for what it was). I know very little about the sport -- there are lots of things I haven't seen and have yet to learn. 

Ultimately I just want to make whatever choice is safest for the dog in that situation. But I don't even know what that's going to be, yet.


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## hunterisgreat

Theres dogs who brake, and never have any feet off the ground, and thats bad... but a dog that hauls at you dead center and wants to hit you like a rugby tackle... I like that if I'm the handler, just not if I'm the helper.


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## Liesje

Merciel said:


> Well, me for one.
> 
> I'm not yet active in IPO, but I currently have a really strong intention to _not_ get the aerial bite, because I've heard too many terrifying stories about dogs hurting themselves doing that.
> 
> If keeping the dog's feet on the ground offers any significant advantage in safety, then that's how I intend to train it. If that ends up costing a point or two, fine, I'll take the point hit.


Well, there's launching, and then there are some helpers who seem to think it's cool to swing the dog around in the air as long as possible, or even slip the sleeve while the dog is mid-air and goes flying. I like a dog that has good speed, fully committed, doesn't necessarily have to launch a mile but I don't like slamming on the brakes OR coming in super fast and low. I've seen a really nice dog miss in a big trial because the helper couldn't gauge what the heck the dog was doing, and it just makes me cringe seeing dogs get inadvertently jammed. I like the dog to be promptly set down safely after being caught but that doesn't mean no launch.


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> Well, there's launching, and then there are some helpers who seem to think it's cool to swing the dog around in the air as long as possible, or even slip the sleeve while the dog is mid-air and goes flying. I like a dog that has good speed, fully committed, doesn't necessarily have to launch a mile but I don't like slamming on the brakes OR coming in super fast and low. I've seen a really nice dog miss in a big trial because the helper couldn't gauge what the heck the dog was doing, and it just makes me cringe seeing dogs get inadvertently jammed. I like the dog to be promptly set down safely after being caught but that doesn't mean no launch.


There are cases in training where a *training* helper may keep swinging a dog on purpose...

And what a-hole lets go of the sleeve mid-catch?

Slamming on the brakes is a lack of commitment or avoidance.

You don't get your dog hurt by always starting closer with an unknown helper, and knowing when to elect not to send your dog on that particular helper. I'm very selective who I do longbites with.


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## Liesje

LOL I've seen too many videos supposedly proving that showlines can bite that just have a helper swinging a young dog around on a bite pillow or letting go so the dog goes flying, as if that shows "commitment".


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## GatorDog

Merciel said:


> You are absolutely correct, I've never seen that (or if I have, I didn't recognize it for what it was). I know very little about the sport -- there are lots of things I haven't seen and have yet to learn.
> 
> Ultimately I just want to make whatever choice is safest for the dog in that situation. But I don't even know what that's going to be, yet.


The safest decision is to work on long catches like that with a very experienced helper. I still have rarely practiced long bites with my female at all because she is so fast and does launch from quite a distance away. An inexperienced helper could injure her very easily, but a great one can catch her beautifully.

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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> LOL I've seen too many videos supposedly proving that showlines can bite that just have a helper swinging a young dog around on a bite pillow or letting go so the dog goes flying, as if that shows "commitment".


I will keep a dog swinging to do the opposite if there is no longline on them... make them hold on b/c letting go while swinging sucks lol.


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## björn

What I´ve heard from people involved long in the breed the change to a more fast, explosive and flashy dog came when breeds like border collie started to be more common in workingtrials in late 90s, the strongnerved and a bit calmer dog then had problem to match the speed and flash from the quicker faster but also softer type of dog in obediencepart for example. Similar development I think we can see also in IPO and protectionsports in many parts of europe, while there is few BC in protectionsports the malinois like the BC impressed people with the speed and intensity and was hard to match for many GSDs in competitions.

It´s not prey that´s the problem, it´s just that prey in combination with a fast reacting very lively dog is hard to beat in sport, these very explosive and quick dog may also due to this have a lower treshold for stress and excitment that is more noticable if the nerves are not good compared to a dog with same nerves but who is in his nature more calmer and thinks things thru a little more before acting.

I don´t know if we can say it´s training that make some dogs today appear different that what they could be, there is still noticeable differences regardless if the handler is very experienced or not when looking at their dogs in competitions, and this is an opinion shared also by other breeders and judges who are concerned about the development of dogsports and how it influences the breedings done. This is of course not all dogs and breeders but a perfectly fine and good policedog will in some cases get less points in competitions than a less soldid and rather weak dog just because it can´t match the speed, precision and flash needed for very high points.


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## carmspack

I was asking for the "historical" aspect because I think that the launch makes its appearance at the intersection of better training and more showmanship in sport . 
The long bite launches are spectacular . Audience gasps , image caught , used for promotion to demonstrate intensity.

But does it?

Had this rambling discussion with Owen Tober many years ago when he was visiting to pick up some dogs for PDs .
He had just come back from a buying expedition Czech , DDR. He was my first hand account of what was "there". Very interesting .
I can't imagine any of those dogs doing this naturally.

Maybe Cliff can share his knowledge here . 
The older dogs were not primarily Prey Drive bred -- trying to imagine a Roby Glockeneck 



 sailing through the air .

For a canine this is not a natural prey move.

Big cats , yes . The true hunters .

Dogs no. Primarily because they are not efficient hunters for prey , working in packs , scavenging , picking out the ones that need to be culled , or being dependant on us for food. Studies with feral dogs show that they will check the garbage to see what waste we have left rather than have roaming hunting session. That is the nature of the dog and why we have this symbiotic co dependence.

so never mind that .

I can't see where that launch has any practical use .

One old man with a discerning eye for the power dogs would scoff at the phoney baloney . In one of our conversations we concluded that if you had an escape it was because the dog failed to block the escape. Not enough power and impression there in the fight which would have subdued , conquered the "guy" . Cliff will know who I am referring to . 

If you are in the sport which is entertainment (good) and not a breeding tool , then you should make every effort to do the best that you can . Be in it to Win it . 

This launch is a learned behaviour. Targeting prey . 
If I took a picture and digitally altered it I could have a dog launching for a disk (Frisbee type) , take out the disc , replace with running man and have the same image.

It is one way to teach it . Pups conditioned from early on . 
this so Meldy can see what the heck we are talking about Nation-X: Home of the Bully enthusiast... / Late Summer Schutzhund Training in Michigan

open for discussion


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## crackem

It's not the "natural" move, but I don't believe the "old" dogs couldn't do it. It's training. Just because a dog launches doesn't mean he's a prey monkey and just because a dog doesn't, doesn't mean he's somehow a throwback to the good ol days.


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> I was asking for the "historical" aspect because I think that the launch makes its appearance at the intersection of better training and more showmanship in sport .
> The long bite launches are spectacular . Audience gasps , image caught , used for promotion to demonstrate intensity.
> 
> But does it?
> 
> Had this rambling discussion with Owen Tober many years ago when he was visiting to pick up some dogs for PDs .
> He had just come back from a buying expedition Czech , DDR. He was my first hand account of what was "there". Very interesting .
> I can't imagine any of those dogs doing this naturally.
> 
> Maybe Cliff can share his knowledge here .
> The older dogs were not primarily Prey Drive bred -- trying to imagine a Roby Glockeneck Robby Glockeneck - Back Transport and Hold & Bark. - Von Forell Kennels.wmv - YouTube
> sailing through the air .
> 
> For a canine this is not a natural prey move.
> 
> Big cats , yes . The true hunters .
> 
> Dogs no. Primarily because they are not efficient hunters for prey , working in packs , scavenging , picking out the ones that need to be culled , or being dependant on us for food. Studies with feral dogs show that they will check the garbage to see what waste we have left rather than have roaming hunting session. That is the nature of the dog and why we have this symbiotic co dependence.
> 
> so never mind that .
> 
> I can't see where that launch has any practical use .
> 
> One old man with a discerning eye for the power dogs would scoff at the phoney baloney . In one of our conversations we concluded that if you had an escape it was because the dog failed to block the escape. Not enough power and impression there in the fight which would have subdued , conquered the "guy" . Cliff will know who I am referring to .
> 
> If you are in the sport which is entertainment (good) and not a breeding tool , then you should make every effort to do the best that you can . Be in it to Win it .
> 
> This launch is a learned behaviour. Targeting prey .
> If I took a picture and digitally altered it I could have a dog launching for a disk (Frisbee type) , take out the disc , replace with running man and have the same image.
> 
> It is one way to teach it . Pups conditioned from early on .
> this so Meldy can see what the heck we are talking about Nation-X: Home of the Bully enthusiast... / Late Summer Schutzhund Training in Michigan
> 
> open for discussion


All hunters will scavenge the free meal over the hard hunt. I have pictures of bald eagles attacking a dumpster in mass in Alaska. Sharks will follow a whale carcass for weeks. Bears are notorious for breaking into cars to steal an easy meal. There's something on cnn right now about a tiger that's become a man eater because as prey goes, humans are about as easy as picking through a dumpster...most of the places tigers are, food doesn't make it into a dumpster anyway.


----------



## carmspack

björn said:


> What I´ve heard from people involved long in the breed the change to a more fast, explosive and flashy dog came when breeds like border collie started to be more common in workingtrials in late 90s, the strongnerved and a bit calmer dog then had problem to match the speed and flash from the quicker faster but also softer type of dog in obediencepart for example. Similar development I think we can see also in IPO and protectionsports in many parts of europe, while there is few BC in protectionsports the malinois like the BC impressed people with the speed and intensity and was hard to match for many GSDs in competitions.
> 
> It´s not prey that´s the problem, it´s just that prey in combination with a fast reacting very lively dog is hard to beat in sport, these very explosive and quick dog may also due to this have a lower treshold for stress and excitment that is more noticable if the nerves are not good compared to a dog with same nerves but who is in his nature more calmer and thinks things thru a little more before acting.
> 
> I don´t know if we can say it´s training that make some dogs today appear different that what they could be, there is still noticeable differences regardless if the handler is very experienced or not when looking at their dogs in competitions, and this is an opinion shared also by other breeders and judges who are concerned about the development of dogsports and how it influences the breedings done. This is of course not all dogs and breeders but a perfectly fine and good policedog will in some cases get less points in competitions than a less soldid and rather weak dog just because it can´t match the speed, precision and flash needed for very high points.


 
YES . We must have been writing our thoughts at the same time. That is exactly why I asked the question . To get an overall view. 
It does affect breeding choices because studs are chosen by points and placements . 
Traeger of von den Wannaer Hoehen quote " the most important thing in protection for me is self-confidence!!! You see more and more dogs that show activity through nerve, which is spectacular on the field but is questionable for the breed. The other thing that is important to me is the gripping behaviour, which I think is connected to nerve strength: although I have to admit with today's advanced training , where it is not unusual that that correct grips are particularly taught and reinforced, the grip can only be secondary indicator for a dog's quality."

Later Traeger says when asked by Claudia Romard (from the standpoint of a breeder , what worries you the most when you look at the GSD today? What do you need to watch out for?) answer 

"The good and professional way of training !! That might sound a bit wierd, but like I already described we often have trouble to see the real quality of the dog due to the professional training of today. Overall I am happy to see that the training today is humane and so advanced compared to when I started in Schutzhund, but for a breeder it gets more and more difficult to find out what is genetics and what is high standard or training ; but to get back to your question, I think it is important to keep an eye on the nerves of our dogs . A lot of trainers and handlers like the dogs with a high amount of nerve activity and those are, through good training, the ones we find winning competitions. But if we keep breeding in this direction we will have big problems with the breed in the generations to come -- problems in the sport as much as in normal environmental areas."

(Claudia Romard interviewing Hans Dieter Traeger)


----------



## carmspack

crackem said:


> It's not the "natural" move, but I don't believe the "old" dogs couldn't do it. It's training. Just because a dog launches doesn't mean he's a prey monkey and just because a dog doesn't, doesn't mean he's somehow a throwback to the good ol days.


Fully appreciate this and for any of my dogs going in to competition I would say "go for it" , give yourself every legitimate advantage to help yourself --- as long as it does not cover or mask an inadequacy . Prey drive can do that .
It may drive the dog to over come a challenge . 

At Ring though we had SchH guests . It was interesting to see dogs that were impressive on the long bite launch , did not have the confidence to extend and launch over the open pit broad jump.


----------



## meldy

carmspack said:


> this so meldy can see what the heck we are talking about nation-x: Home of the bully enthusiast... / late summer schutzhund training in michigan
> 
> open for discussion


thank you!


----------



## David Winners

There is a point where every knowledgeable trainer knows that they are covering up the weaknesses in a dog to accomplish their training goals. The trouble is, there are no perfect dogs and we are always going to do our best to bring out the best in any dog we train. Because the understanding of learning theory and it's application has allowed us to create unnatural behaviors in the weaker dog, we can now train less suitable animals to a higher level of performance.

Not many trainers are going to refuse to train a dog that can be trained to do the exercises. They are going to use the methods that will work on that particular dog and help it though the learning process of all phases. The limitations of compulsion training have the side effect of segregating dogs of weak nerve. I believe trainin today is much more fair to the dogs we love, but it allows weaker animals to succeed where yesterday they would have failed.

Everyone wants their dog to succeed, even those who shouldn't be on the field. It is human nature to find a way to fit square pegs in round holes. It is a testament to the nature of dogs that they can be so forgiving in our pursuit of perfection. They will adapt to whatever we ask of them, and at an alarming rate. This attribute has allowed their domestication to surpass every other species on the planet. If our training changes, so will the dogs.

Not to say that we should back tie all puppies at 16 weeks, put them in defense and cull all those that don't meet the grade. I think the caretakers of the breed need to take into consideration the way in which we are successful with the breed, and make wise, thoughtful and well intentioned choices in their programs.

It is left to those that understand the whole dog to maintain the working dog. We can not expect the consumer to understand the totality of what creates the GSD.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I like a dog that launches into the long bite, no hesitation, full commitment and confidence. 
Watch the less confident dogs they rarely seem to be able to pull off the long bite with the same speed and strength. 
Even at the world level the dogs dont all come in the same way. At the club level around here the majority dont do the kind of flashy longbite that the audience likes.


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## meldy

David Winners said:


> There is a point where every knowledgeable trainer knows that they are covering up the weaknesses in a dog to accomplish their training goals. The trouble is, there are no perfect dogs and we are always going to do our best to bring out the best in any dog we train. Because the understanding of learning theory and it's application has allowed us to create unnatural behaviors in the weaker dog, we can now train less suitable animals to a higher level of performance.
> 
> Not many trainers are going to refuse to train a dog that can be trained to do the exercises. They are going to use the methods that will work on that particular dog and help it though the learning process of all phases. The limitations of compulsion training have the side effect of segregating dogs of weak nerve. I believe trainin today is much more fair to the dogs we love, but it allows weaker animals to succeed where yesterday they would have failed.
> 
> Everyone wants their dog to succeed, even those who shouldn't be on the field. It is human nature to find a way to fit square pegs in round holes. It is a testament to the nature of dogs that they can be so forgiving in our pursuit of perfection. They will adapt to whatever we ask of them, and at an alarming rate. This attribute has allowed their domestication to surpass every other species on the planet. If our training changes, so will the dogs.
> 
> Not to say that we should back tie all puppies at 16 weeks, put them in defense and cull all those that don't meet the grade. I think the caretakers of the breed need to take into consideration the way in which we are successful with the breed, and make wise, thoughtful and well intentioned choices in their programs.
> 
> It is left to those that understand the whole dog to maintain the working dog. We can not expect the consumer to understand the totality of what creates the GSD.


 
Schutzhund - Back Tie - Great Lakes Working Dog Association - YouTube This is a back tie? (just tying a dog to a post..I googled >.< ) How does that develop defensive drives?


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## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I like a dog that launches into the long bite, no hesitation, full commitment and confidence.
> Watch the less confident dogs they rarely seem to be able to pull off the long bite with the same speed and strength.
> Even at the world level the dogs dont all come in the same way. At the club level around here the majority dont do the kind of flashy longbite that the audience likes.


You can have that without aerobatics. And as the helper catching that it is violent and scary.


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## David Winners

meldy said:


> Schutzhund - Back Tie - Great Lakes Working Dog Association - YouTube This is a back tie? (just tying a dog to a post..I googled >.< ) How does that develop defensive drives?


I am not referring to training or developing anything. I am talking about tying the puppies out and threatening them by posture, yelling, whip or stick hits, putting them into defense, and seeing how they react, eg. fight or flight.


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## meldy

David Winners said:


> I am not referring to training or developing anything. I am talking about tying the puppies out and threatening them by posture, yelling, whip or stick hits, putting them into defense, and seeing how they react, eg. fight or flight.


 
Ahhh ok....my bad


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## Blitzkrieg1

Here is the long bite of Stuka the sire of both our dogs, gotta love it.





 
Here is a world level dog Hank. (just got a son at the club, only a pup though)





 
Irmus Galan Nalag another world level dog/stud





 
Drago Vom Patriot my favorite





 
All strong dogs, all have flashy long bites..


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## Merciel

David Winners said:


> I believe trainin today is much more fair to the dogs we love, but it allows weaker animals to succeed where yesterday they would have failed.
> 
> Everyone wants their dog to succeed, even those who shouldn't be on the field.


I wrote a really long response to this, then thought better of it because I felt like I was quibbling about minutiae when actually I agree with your larger point.

But: I do want to note in passing that while yes, it is possible to "succeed" (to some limited definition of "success") with a weaker dog than would have been possible with the heavy-handed methods of yesteryear, _nobody_ who has tried to seriously compete with a weak dog ever wants to do that again.

I have a number of friends on the sport circuit who, like me, are relative newbies, and who are competing with poorly bred dogs that have a host of issues. Some are fearful, some are reactive, some are easily discouraged and shut down when stressed. Almost all of them have issues with physical structure or soundness.

Every one of those friends is absolutely bent on getting the best possible performance dog from the best possible source the next time around. It is inconceivably, inexpressibly _frustrating_ to try to compete at any serious level with a dog who is fundamentally flawed. Just as people who got burned once by a BYB/mill dog often become the most vocal advocates of good breeders, people who have tried to compete with genuinely weak dogs will go to great lengths to never, ever do that again.

Dog sports, like every other realm of competitive human endeavor, have gotten more and more challenging over time. What it takes to win today would have been unimaginable a few generations ago. Not _only_ must you be a better trainer to win, but you need a smarter, stronger, faster, sounder dog. A great trainer with a weak dog will always lose out to a great trainer with a strong dog.

So... yes, it's possible to "succeed" to some limited level with a weaker dog using modern training techniques, and that probably wouldn't have been possible before. But IME, all that does is increase your awareness of how constraining a weak dog's limitations are, and consequently increase your determination to get a better dog next time. In a roundabout way, therefore, I'm inclined to think it actually works to support good breeders' programs.


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## Vandal

Here are two of my personal favorites. The first ....Tyson, (and the response from the person video taping), just cracks me up every time I watch it. I've watched a couple of sons on video who seem to hit with that same NFL soundtrack playing.

Same for Gator but what I will say about him is the hold and bark this dog does is what it should look like. Barking most certainly tells you something about the dogs. I have never heard anyone making it all about barking but what a dog does when he isn't biting, matters...to me anyway. I don't think I have ever been disappointed when I have seen a dog start out the way Gator does. That behavior tells you something more is coming and it's gonna hurt. Enno vom Beilstein was very similar in how he worked in protection.
Even on video, ( and it is very hard to capture what you see in person with these low end cameras that lack the right sound equipment), you can hear and see just how "serious" he is . There are some dogs you work as the helper that really make an impression where you can feel somewhat intimidated . Gator would be one of those dogs, I am certain of that. That hit on the back transport is caught by the camera. Pretty sure the courage test is the same kind of power but it is further away, so the sound is not as clear. These dogs are driving into the helper, not flying.

On the video, Irmus does not launch, he waits and comes more straight into the helper. These two do not either. The really good dogs I have worked, mostly run directly at you and then speed up the last few feet and kind of drive into you. There is a difference and mostly the dogs with high fight drive are not flying into the sleeve. 

The helper working Drago pops the sleeve up at the last second and the dog follows it. That is how you can train it, I suppose, but I have worked some dogs that come down that field and made me want to just hold that sleeve where right where it was. Not doing many courage tests nowadays but I have worked some very strong dogs years ago. They might fly after you on the escape but the courage test and all the attack bites were done differently.

**I think I fixed the links above. ADMIN **


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni4D6O1Szx4
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2TdQ6wmbHE
> 
> Here are two of my personal favorites. The first ....Tyson, (and the response from the person video taping), just cracks me up every time I watch it. I've watched a couple of sons on video who seem to hit with that same NFL soundtrack playing.
> 
> Same for Gator but what I will say about him is the hold and bark this dog does is what it should look like. Barking most certainly tells you something about the dogs. I have never heard anyone making it all about barking but what a dog does when he isn't biting, matters...to me anyway. I don't think I have ever been disappointed when I have seen a dog start out the way Gator does. That behavior tells you something more is coming and it's gonna hurt. Enno vom Beilstein was very similar in how he worked in protection.
> Even on video, ( and it is very hard to capture what you see in person with these low end cameras that lack the right sound equipment), you can hear and see just how "serious" he is . There are some dogs you work as the helper that really make an impression where you can feel somewhat intimidated . Gator would be one of those dogs, I am certain of that. That hit on the back transport is caught by the camera. Pretty sure the courage test is the same kind of power but it is further away, so the sound is not as clear. These dogs are driving into the helper, not flying.
> 
> On the video, Irmus does not launch, he waits and comes more straight into the helper. These two do not either. The really good dogs I have worked, mostly run directly at you and then speed up the last few feet and kind of drive into you. There is a difference and mostly the dogs with high fight drive are not flying into the sleeve.
> 
> The helper working Drago pops the sleeve up at the last second and the dog follows it. That is how you can train it, I suppose, but I have worked some dogs that come down that field and made me want to just hold that sleeve where right where it was. Not doing many courage tests nowadays but I have worked some very strong dogs years ago. They might fly after you on the escape but the courage test and all the attack bites were done differently.


Exactly. The violence a good dog can do without superman-ning is impressive and far more intimidating to me than xgames meets IPO


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## crackem

Claudia is correct, modern training can take you a lot of places and if there's incentive you can make less look a little more. That will help some good dogs look pretty good, and some average dogs look good and allow mediocre dogs to pass too. I've seen pretty good dogs score really very well, but working them you can tell they aren't "it" but they score nicely.

But that will always be a problem. Not everybody has good intentions, build a system and people find a way to cheat it. Most of us use good training to have fun and train our dogs the best we can and compete. Others use it as a way to habituate and create an appearance and earn a title so they can sell puppies.

The testing is always in the training. At least it's been that way since i've been involved. and trialing is for fun and to show you've done the work and it's still necessary. It's easy to bring a dog out and make it look good in tracking. It's easy to just do OB and it's really easy to just do protection. Now train all that and keep the balance to score really well in a trial. It's not easy and sometimes your great protection dog won't out, or you put so much control it creates a lot of conflict on the field and poor scores result. 

It isn't the most important part to me, but it is still important. Provided you have people with good intentions doing it. 

someone brought up training a less than average dog and never wanting to do it again, and that is true for people that really want to train their dogs  not everyone does sadly. There are loads and loads and loads of breeders that don't hold leashes, they don't do helper work. They have never seen the dogs they're breeding do anything other than produce puppies. They pay a lot of money to have other people put a "breeding title" on their dog. 

If you have a dog, have fun with it, period. I don't give two craps what it is you do, just do something fun. If you're breeding, work your dogs and work them hard. Know what you're putting together.


----------



## crackem

of course barking can tell you something about a dog. It might mean it's a pansy dog, it might mean it's a world beater, it might mean it has just had ****ty training. It's one part and by itself doesn't mean a lot. that was my point. of course what dogs do while not biting is just as important as the grip itself and it all should be judged together.

and certainly you've been around enough to hear the peanut gallery critique every bark and hold and every long bite. Dogs get judged harshly on their barking, just listen to everyone talk. I'm sorry, but if you have a halfway decent dog and a not so great helper, your dog in the blind is going to look pretty mediocre. Strong dogs don't feel the need to do much if they haven't been conditioned with great helper work in the blind. Why should they?


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## carmspack

fascinating . Vandal I would love to see the youtube but each one has an invalid address (at least for me).


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## carmspack

Claudia is correct I am sure she is . I gave her credit as the interviewer . The ideas presented were those of Hans Dieter Traeger


----------



## lhczth

hunterisgreat said:


> Theres dogs who brake, and never have any feet off the ground, and thats bad... but a dog that hauls at you dead center and wants to hit you like a rugby tackle... I like that if I'm the handler, just not if I'm the helper.


Having a dog like that is NOT fun as a handler either. Great way for the dog and helper to get hurt. I hate sending Deja on the long bite. Some helpers catch her really well, but she has been caught badly a few times too. 

Ever see Tyson Schiffslache (Irmus grandsire)? Look for his videos. He liked to take helpers legs out from under them. 

A dog that tended to come very fast and low was Belschik Eicken-Bruche. He was a little dog (60 cm and 68#), but he took a few helpers down. 

There are videos of both on Herzlich Willkommen... 
I have another one of Tyson, but not sure where I got it. 
http://www.mohnwiese.de


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## carmspack

the pedigree tells you -- the dog showed you SG Pirol van't Enclavehof


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## lhczth

Carmen, I fixed the links in Anne's post. 

I didn't see her post before I also mentioned Tyson.


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## Vandal

I asked Lisa to fix the video links...I don't have time right now to figure out what I did wrong.


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## Vandal

> and certainly you've been around enough to hear the peanut gallery critique every bark and hold and every long bite. Dogs get judged harshly on their barking, just listen to everyone talk.


I've been around long enough to have stopped listening years ago. 



> I'm sorry, but if you have a halfway decent dog and a not so great helper, your dog in the blind is going to look pretty mediocre


I'm sorry too...believe me.


----------



## pam

Carmen, could you elaborate more on the Enclavehof dogs? Lee is in Egypt now and spent some time watching IPO and with one breeder who had two Enclavehof males that she really liked. She will bring photos/more info, but would love some history if you have the time.


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## lhczth

Mohnwiese doesn't seem to have as many old videos anymore either. That is too bad since there were videos of Troll bN, Fero, Yoschy and many others on there at one time.


----------



## David Winners

Merciel said:


> I wrote a really long response to this, then thought better of it because I felt like I was quibbling about minutiae when actually I agree with your larger point.
> 
> But: I do want to note in passing that while yes, it is possible to "succeed" (to some limited definition of "success") with a weaker dog than would have been possible with the heavy-handed methods of yesteryear, _nobody_ who has tried to seriously compete with a weak dog ever wants to do that again.
> 
> I have a number of friends on the sport circuit who, like me, are relative newbies, and who are competing with poorly bred dogs that have a host of issues. Some are fearful, some are reactive, some are easily discouraged and shut down when stressed. Almost all of them have issues with physical structure or soundness.
> 
> Every one of those friends is absolutely bent on getting the best possible performance dog from the best possible source the next time around. It is inconceivably, inexpressibly _frustrating_ to try to compete at any serious level with a dog who is fundamentally flawed. Just as people who got burned once by a BYB/mill dog often become the most vocal advocates of good breeders, people who have tried to compete with genuinely weak dogs will go to great lengths to never, ever do that again.
> 
> Dog sports, like every other realm of competitive human endeavor, have gotten more and more challenging over time. What it takes to win today would have been unimaginable a few generations ago. Not _only_ must you be a better trainer to win, but you need a smarter, stronger, faster, sounder dog. A great trainer with a weak dog will always lose out to a great trainer with a strong dog.
> 
> So... yes, it's possible to "succeed" to some limited level with a weaker dog using modern training techniques, and that probably wouldn't have been possible before. But IME, all that does is increase your awareness of how constraining a weak dog's limitations are, and consequently increase your determination to get a better dog next time. In a roundabout way, therefore, I'm inclined to think it actually works to support good breeders' programs.


I'm sorry if you, or anyone thought that I was implying that any dog shouldn't be trained. I have nothing but respect for what you have accomplished with your dog. 

My point was that modern training doesn't have the effect of only allowing strong dogs to compete, and this earn titles. Nervy dogs can look good due to training. The time when the training itself would wash out dogs is gone, therefore we must use additional / different criteria to judge which dogs to breed than titles or scores.

I think all dogs should be trained to the level at which thru can be successful and enjoy themselves.

David Winners


----------



## crackem

Vandal said:


> I've been around long enough to have stopped listening years ago.
> 
> .


You're a wise woman


----------



## Merciel

David Winners said:


> I'm sorry if you, or anyone thought that I was implying that any dog shouldn't be trained. I have nothing but respect for what you have accomplished with your dog.
> 
> My point was that modern training doesn't have the effect of only allowing strong dogs to compete, and this earn titles. Nervy dogs can look good due to training. The time when the training itself would wash out dogs is gone, therefore we must use additional / different criteria to judge which dogs to breed than titles or scores.


No, no, I really didn't take your post to mean that. Like I said, I waffled about whether I even wanted to post anything because I don't think we disagree about anything substantive.

I just think that there are some upsides to the fact that crappy dogs _can_ succeed, kinda-sorta, so people get hooked on competition and want better dogs next time, instead of just going "pfft well this sucks and is scary and hurtful to my dog, I'm never doing any of THAT again."

And yeah, you do have to watch with a close eye to see which dogs are actually unstable (or so nervy and high-strung that I wouldn't want to live with them). But I don't think it's particularly hard to spot, especially in training vs. competition. If you know the sport well enough, you can usually tell when a dog is shaky, even when the trainer is great. I can't do it in IPO because I don't know IPO that well, but I can tell in the venues that I _do_ know.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Great thread. It does make clear to me that most if not all versions of protection are in fact sports. 

I do wish there were better test for breeding purposes. The vast majority of GSDs will become pets. What they need are for real dogs with sound nerves, good temperament, and physical health. 

I'm not suggesting lowering the standards, just make them the way they should be. 

How about something that actually tests nerve.


----------



## mycobraracr

meldy said:


> Schutzhund - Back Tie - Great Lakes Working Dog Association - YouTube This is a back tie? (just tying a dog to a post..I googled >.< ) How does that develop defensive drives?



I also want to clarify that a back tie can be used for many different things. Not just bringing out defense. It can be used for prey work, grip work, targeting, all sorts of things. It eliminates the confusion a handler can bring. Allowing the dog to work more freely as well as allowing the decoy to control more. It is a very useful tool.


----------



## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm not suggesting lowering the standards, just make them the way they should be.


Well, first you'd have to get everyone to agree on "the way they should be" and what constitutes adequate "nerve," which right there would probably torpedo the whole thing.

Then you'd have to get all the breeders to be honest about what they were producing and all the buyers to be honest about what they wanted. Financial motivations and ego often push the other way.

Then you'd have to get all the breeders to be _knowledgeable_ about what they were producing (keeping in mind the difficulty of predicting the fate and final nature of an 8-week-old puppy) and all the buyers to be knowledgeable about what they actually wanted and were capable of handling. Because it's not enough to be honest if you're ill-informed.

Then you'd have to have breeders patient and capable enough to develop clear, purposeful, farsighted programs, and buyers willing to support those programs instead of bargain-hunting on Craigslist, buying impulsively at the pet store, or paying exorbitant sums of money instead of doing meaningful research because hey, if it costs more it has to be better, right?

_Then_ you'd have to get everyone communicating clearly, using the same terms to mean the same things, about what they had and what they wanted.

When you can get all those factors to line up then I think people on both sides tend to get what they want and be pretty happy about the whole thing.

But human nature and human frailty are what they are. And nothing that involves pushing against those foibles, and managing competing considerations independent of those basic weaknesses, will ever be as simple as just "making things the way they should be."


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## Jack's Dad

I don't think it's all that complicated to come up with a better test of nerve.

People will always have different views on the issues you mentioned.

However, I think most of the people who posted on this thread could tell if a dog has good nerves or not.

If breeders continue to breed primarily for sport, confirmation, or a watered down pet then the breed is doomed. 

Maybe a Shepadoodle would improve things.


----------



## crackem

make it an exercise and people can train for it. Less can look more with training. I don't care if your exercise is a chainsaw in a portapotty, you can train most dogs to go in there and bite. Then what? they have to take 10 zaps with a cattle prod? you'd be surprised what weak nerve bags will endure that with training. It isn't pretty, but it's possible. Then what? where does it go? The only thing that is a test of nerve is the first time a dog sees it, and even then, it's not always the initial reaction, but the recovery and the speed at which it happens. That occurs in training, you can't devise a trial or test and have any sort of standard that could be applied to even a small percentage of working dogs before it was being trained for.

Schutzhund is simple. If you use it correctly, it's just fine. It doesn't really need anything other than for judges to judge, breeders to be honest and owners to work with what they have and accept it. The only thing I think could add to it, is a real attack out of the blind, but as it is, it's still just fine.


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## Blitzkrieg1

One of the things I like about the dutch training method. Frequent stress is placed on the dog throughout the process. The dog must overcome and push through the pressure no excuses. How can you produce strong dogs and know what you have if you do not challenge them?

If the dog cannot handle a correction, pressure from the handler, environmental pressure and does not have the heart to keep on going what good is it?

By the time the dog is 2-3 yrs if you have a clue and you work and test your dogs you should know what you have.


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## carmspack

For the person asking about Pirol -- very cool, total unconcern , intense dog in protection , very physical , full throttle freight train.


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## robk

Here is a dog that I am following with interest right now. Currently he is in the US training IPO. I hope to be able to go watch him trial.


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## cliffson1

@ Carmen....we had 200 dogs at Benning in early seventies. Probably 150 dogs were GS. You did not have the screaming type dog that you often see today....the sentry/patrol type dogs were much more man focused and intense in dealing with man as opposed to sleeve. Some of that is training,( then and now), and some of that was type of dogs. Btw, there were no Mals back then either.


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## carmspack

hey that water exercise was part of the Campagne I did ! On the water retrieve . Here are the dogs and people I worked with Leerburg Webboard | french ring dogs

Jean Dominique owned Espoir and Snoopy. Amaaaazing dogs. 
Jean liked one of my females and we tried a breeding where he would have taken a pup for training. Espoir had no luck -- he was having problems with sperm -- we took chance anyway , and the dogs didn't mind one bit !

V Rated Espoir Du Val Huerles Le Vent Ring III, Campagne 500, Pistage A&B, Sch III,KKL 1a. 

a very sane, stable, high social dog -- you would not ever guess the dog had any bite work -- as it should be 

In the Campagne the dog is sent into water , and has to take directional , which the judge decides on the spur of the moment.
We learned about this water exercise the night before the trial , which was the first in North America so no prep . Between exhaustion , extreme heat , trial nerves (myself) with maybe two hours tops of sleep we went to trial. Dog was brilliant . Lost points when doing retrieve in water because his total life experience with water retrieve was in my own ponds , in play mode , where he would swim around like some alligator . The water part was 100% . The coming to shore with his "booty" the plastic milk jug , got a shake and a one time prance around - show offy proud , so points lost for not having a clean delivery to hand.
The long track . I drew the last track position. They had run out of sod farm space so my track wandered through the edge with some trees, then across the street , into a patch of common land at the back of a new and muddy subdivision . No fences for the houses yet . Dogs on the decks barking , people having a bbq , all fine , until around the 85% complete point a boy looses control and his soccer ball intersects the path of my dog , who scoops it up and continues to track , boy running from his house crying about his ball , father running after him , grabbing his arm and dragging the upset boy back. Track completed -- points lost for picking up the ball.
The wooded area we went through was the neighbourhood dog potty , lots of trees marked by males -- dog did not critter .

That was years ago and I am still buzzed. 

Here is what it looks like when the decoy does NOT catch the dog . The decoy must cause the dog to miss, to frustrate , to see if the dog has the power to recover and dominate on his mission.


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## björn

carmspack said:


> Traeger of von den Wannaer Hoehen quote " the most important thing in protection for me is self-confidence!!! You see more and more dogs that show activity through nerve, which is spectacular on the field but is questionable for the breed. The other thing that is important to me is the gripping behaviour, which I think is connected to nerve strength: although I have to admit with today's advanced training , where it is not unusual that that correct grips are particularly taught and reinforced, the grip can only be secondary indicator for a dog's quality."


This mirrors the thoughts I also heard from other competitors and breeders, that we see more dogs today that reacts with increased activity and stress that people then label "drive", I guess a dog with a BC-type of mentality is easier to "speed" up than a confident strongnerved type. It seems a dog with less natural qualities but who are easier to train to perfection is wanted, if the dog lacks a strong bark with confidence different tricks are used to get the dog to show some "charisma", but often all we get is a dog who are more frantic and not showing the strong balanced bark and behaviour like for example gator that was posted, who is a real nice dog I think.

But forgett speed, two dogs can have the same speed on a courgetest but still behave differently if we look at the rest of the program and the type of dog in general. Likewise, a dog can have a little bit less speed than other but much better in the bark and are not only hanging on like a dead fish with no prescense. If looking at the older dogs it seems the bark and not only hanging like a dead fish was more common, super speed and full deep calm bite seemed to be of less priority.


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## carmspack

hi Bjorn , "we see more dogs today that reacts with increased activity and stress that people then label "drive", " which is why I brought up a dog that I trained side by side with for a few years -- IMPECCABLE stable behaviour. As I said you would never guess the dog had any bite work --- Espoir . 

Nothing needs to be sacrificed to have a good working dog .

All the things you bring to the dog should be a bonus.


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## carmspack

Cliff can you imagine "Joe" playing ball with his dogs to have them work. Okay now , you stop that laughing.

Those were some tough , directable , stable dogs .


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## lhczth

Carmen, "joe" as in Kuhn?  :rofl:


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## carmspack

yes as in Joe Kuhn . 
never -- no bite development either, the dogs lived natural normal lives without all this meet 100 people , visit this visit that . 

to this day I am friends with Karen who has two dogs of mine , both with significant age on them. 

she was with him for a good number of years and was close to all the dogs, handling all of them.
she sent me a stack of Joe's old photos of his dogs including Addi Tonteichen who for all the world looks like a bear .

Karen has Josie Carmspack Pandora - with many Kuhnhof dogs 

and Jackie , who she says is sooooooo intelligent , like dealing with a 6 or 7 year old child Carmspack Blackjack Johnson -- both , she says would make Joe proud and that means the world to me.

After years I got him to remove Brix Laimbachtal from the advert pages of Dog World Magazine and have Ulf put up instead. 

Joe said Brix was a better dog from Boris Trogenbach than Fero was .
Plus his Brix had Bert Knufken . We talked several times on the comparison . Did not matter Brix's day was finished .


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## carmspack

targeting and creating the leap Schutzhund Village 

" I feel that this method brings great success with dogs who do not naturally strike hard. The dog strikes the helper frontally right from the start without realizing it because he should be completely mesmerized by the last second movement of the sleeve"

the written version in Das Schaferhund Magazin April 2007 has many more pictures


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## lhczth

I have seen that photo of Addi you mentioned Carmen. I thought I had a copy of it.  Use to train with 2 sons and a daughter.


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## mycobraracr

carmspack said:


> hey that water exercise was part of the Campagne I did ! On the water retrieve . Here are the dogs and people I worked with Leerburg Webboard | french ring dogs
> 
> Jean Dominique owned Espoir and Snoopy. Amaaaazing dogs.
> Jean liked one of my females and we tried a breeding where he would have taken a pup for training. Espoir had no luck -- he was having problems with sperm -- we took chance anyway , and the dogs didn't mind one bit !
> 
> V Rated Espoir Du Val Huerles Le Vent Ring III, Campagne 500, Pistage A&B, Sch III,KKL 1a.
> 
> a very sane, stable, high social dog -- you would not ever guess the dog had any bite work -- as it should be
> 
> In the Campagne the dog is sent into water , and has to take directional , which the judge decides on the spur of the moment.
> We learned about this water exercise the night before the trial , which was the first in North America so no prep . Between exhaustion , extreme heat , trial nerves (myself) with maybe two hours tops of sleep we went to trial. Dog was brilliant . Lost points when doing retrieve in water because his total life experience with water retrieve was in my own ponds , in play mode , where he would swim around like some alligator . The water part was 100% . The coming to shore with his "booty" the plastic milk jug , got a shake and a one time prance around - show offy proud , so points lost for not having a clean delivery to hand.
> The long track . I drew the last track position. They had run out of sod farm space so my track wandered through the edge with some trees, then across the street , into a patch of common land at the back of a new and muddy subdivision . No fences for the houses yet . Dogs on the decks barking , people having a bbq , all fine , until around the 85% complete point a boy looses control and his soccer ball intersects the path of my dog , who scoops it up and continues to track , boy running from his house crying about his ball , father running after him , grabbing his arm and dragging the upset boy back. Track completed -- points lost for picking up the ball.
> The wooded area we went through was the neighbourhood dog potty , lots of trees marked by males -- dog did not critter .
> 
> That was years ago and I am still buzzed.
> 
> Here is what it looks like when the decoy does NOT catch the dog . The decoy must cause the dog to miss, to frustrate , to see if the dog has the power to recover and dominate on his mission.
> 
> Champion de France ring 2012 - YouTube



One of my mentors for decoying is/was (he's old now haha) a campagne decoy. Actually he's certified in multiple sports and said that campagne was by far the hardest.


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## carmspack

and it was the most fun --

the degree in difficulty is that the dog must work in conflict . Often.

First , the whole group fellow competitors and spectators follow you around (behind the judge) like some golf tournament . 
Secondly, the environment is not managed . What happens , happens , deal with it . 
Third , you do not know what your judge is going to ask you . Positions order , the asking the dog to stand ,sit , down , in place , are determined by straws that you draw at the beginning of your test.
You can't condition a routine . 
It looks "loose" but there is precision.
You have to know your dog's physicality in general and guage his response on the day . There are chalk markers . Positions , you have to drop your dog in the zone , not over the line , the dog may not move forward when changing position, even inches will be noted.
The dog has to be fully down , no air under him . Same with the sit , butt on the ground. Stand , no legs forward.
One exercise was sending the dog down a path to an approaching decoy . You don't know if the judge is going to have the dog continue , make contact and deal with decoy , or whether the judge will call off . Since you don't know you can't manipulate the outcome with your voice as the dog is sent. The dog has to go out with serious energy . By the time the judge instructs you the dog will be in the zone geared physically and mentally to hit the decoy -- and if it is call off the dog must repel from the target without touching , no cheap bite . Some video I have seen are so close that the dog's ear touches the decoys leg as he swings , back on recall . Energy has to be the same coming back . 

Multiple decoys on field to distract you and the dog . Dog may only address the one that is a threat to handler. 

Dog must think .

I have reconnected with some old friends who I met at the old ring club . They compete in France and have won first place . 
MAY (operative word) start a youngster next year in ring again --- 
May have one going into ring from a litter born back in Jan. Person is excited, dog is a great candidate , hold back may be the persons own physical ability after knee surgeries. 

mycobra --- why don't you give it a try ?


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## carmspack

one thing I would like to see changed in SchH sport is the very liberal use of the word Pronounced --- give it to those that truly deserve it .
Working line, show line . Does not matter .


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## mycobraracr

I would love to give it a shot at some point. I like to play in multiple sports. I feel it makes me a well rounded decoy. I wouldn't even know where to start for campagne though. The majority of ring clubs near me seem to be transitioning over to PSA.


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## mycobraracr

carmspack said:


> targeting and creating the leap Schutzhund Village
> 
> " I feel that this method brings great success with dogs who do not naturally strike hard. The dog strikes the helper frontally right from the start without realizing it because he should be completely mesmerized by the last second movement of the sleeve"
> 
> the written version in Das Schaferhund Magazin April 2007 has many more pictures



I see what some of the others are saying. That the stronger dogs seem to come in faster and harder as a general observation. This is an 18 month old male I work often. For a long time he would do this bunny hop type launch. It was more up than out and just very awkward. Believe me, I wanted to work on this because it used to drive me crazy. Then one day without training it, he just started launching nicely. From a helper standpoint, I prefer the way he launches. It's very predictable and consistent. Hagan Long bite - YouTube


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## carmspack

hi Lisa (Carmen, "joe" as in Kuhn?  :rofl: )

Joe Kuhn , my much missed friend --- remembering him , as all times , March being the month that he passed away -- March 1998.

Had been on the phone with him that day just hours before getting notice that he passed away. 
He was very very happy -- we were doing a little challenge and having fun with it .


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## lhczth

Hard to believe it has been that long.


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## mycobraracr

As another part of this conversation. Have you guys noticed a relationship between prey drive and thresh hold? For example the high prey dogs also being lower thresh hold?


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## carmspack

mycobra that is a difficult question to answer in the manner that you asked it , because that answer would be conditional. Thresholds to what ?
Prey drive is a basic necessary component . It can't be absent.
When provided in balance it sets dynamics into play . When absent you are or too low it is like sitting off the side of the road with a wheel that has fallen off. Too much and you have lost your brakes and you are going forward fast , careening without control till you run out of gas or hit something .

Once again pulling from experience with the racing greyhounds and whippets that my friend tried to rehabilitate for rehoming . Those dogs' zone of irritability , where they would notice movement and prepare to go chase was huge . Always on always ready.

For our GSD a dog with too much prey could never be a suitable herding dog . Remember this is at the core of the behavioural package. HIC and border collie type herding (non tending) are not indicators for herding qualities in THIS breed . The duration is much too brief . Too much prey . 
One critic , would say the modern HGH trials is "trained" , brief (snapshot of a moment) , too small a herd , and involves ACTION, movement . The herding tending dog had long periods , maybe a day , longer , when there was no activity . The sheep , a herd which could number in the thousands had to be able to graze peacefully . As long as they didn't cross the borderline the could move freely, even run to the next sweet spot , without interference from the dog. His purpose was to act as that living fence . The dog still needed to be in drive , creating that fence line , do so without instruction and micro managing and do so reliably even in the absence of the shepherd.

An over the top prey drive dog would have been too easily stimulated into reaction . High reaction is paired with lower thresholds.

The best drives are active . Under control , with middle thresholds .


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## cliffson1

Excellent analogy and post, Carmen! This is what many breeders don't understand....I expect it out of sport participants because too much prey serves their interest, but breeders need to understand the importance of balance, nerve, and versatility.....the cornerstones of the breed, IMO.


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## carmspack

thank you Cliff . 

Can you rely too much on prey drive ---- YES . I think van Oirschot pretty much says this in an interview 

quote 

"If we want to improve the temperaments and use the instrument of the Breed Survey (Korung) should this be done by a more severe courage test (combative spirit) or must we have improved behavioural testing? Is demanding a harder courage test by working judges the solution? 
At least we should debate it and not leave it to a delegate meeting of the SV where delegates are deciding in a polluted atmosphere of polarisation.

*************** For instance at a Breed Survey in Holland in December 2002 conducted by myself, I breed surveyed over 40 GSD. The majority came in Class 2. I saw some extraordinarily good GSD in the courage test.*****************

 On the same day DNA testing was carried out in a small room by a Vet. The dogs had to enter an overcrowded canteen. Afterwards I was told that some of the dogs which did extremely well in the courage test and had high standards in the trials, behaved very nervously when testing for DNA. Some dogs could not be tested without being muzzled. The basic temperament (Weser) is not tested in a courage test. I would prefer to leave the ring with normal in a courage test and excellent behaviour in the above mentioned situation in DNA testing

article in full 
STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES

relying on prey conditioning, prey reward, prey training --- the dog can see its way through a stressful situation --- but that does not make it sound or stable elsewhere


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## Matt Vandart

I joined this forum purely because of this thread, it was a great read with loads of good info and I don't think I remember seeing one bit of bitchiness, awesome


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## David Winners

Matt Vandart said:


> I joined this forum purely because of this thread, it was a great read with loads of good info and I don't think I remember seeing one bit of bitchiness, awesome


Welcome!

Good to see you here Matt.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Good to see you here Matt.


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> thank you Cliff .
> 
> Can you rely too much on prey drive ---- YES . I think van Oirschot pretty much says this in an interview
> 
> quote
> 
> "If we want to improve the temperaments and use the instrument of the Breed Survey (Korung) should this be done by a more severe courage test (combative spirit) or must we have improved behavioural testing? Is demanding a harder courage test by working judges the solution?
> At least we should debate it and not leave it to a delegate meeting of the SV where delegates are deciding in a polluted atmosphere of polarisation.
> 
> *************** For instance at a Breed Survey in Holland in December 2002 conducted by myself, I breed surveyed over 40 GSD. The majority came in Class 2. I saw some extraordinarily good GSD in the courage test.*****************
> 
> On the same day DNA testing was carried out in a small room by a Vet. The dogs had to enter an overcrowded canteen. Afterwards I was told that some of the dogs which did extremely well in the courage test and had high standards in the trials, behaved very nervously when testing for DNA. Some dogs could not be tested without being muzzled. The basic temperament (Weser) is not tested in a courage test. I would prefer to leave the ring with normal in a courage test and excellent behaviour in the above mentioned situation in DNA testing
> 
> article in full
> STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES
> 
> relying on prey conditioning, prey reward, prey training --- the dog can see its way through a stressful situation --- but that does not make it sound or stable elsewhere


Interesting there are notable KNPV dogs I have heard about whose handlers had some concerns with the microchip check Arko Kikkert and Wibo. Not fear issues but Im sure some would have said it was nerves when in reality it was social aggression. Not dogs that were known for allowing strangers to hover and prod.


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> one thing I would like to see changed in SchH sport is the very liberal use of the word Pronounced --- give it to those that truly deserve it .
> Working line, show line . Does not matter .


I've railed about this before.


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## hunterisgreat

Matt Vandart said:


> I joined this forum purely because of this thread, it was a great read with loads of good info and I don't think I remember seeing one bit of bitchiness, awesome


Hey Matt


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## Matt Vandart

Hi duderinos!


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## Blitzkrieg1

Matt you got the wrong kind of shepherds. Going to send you some black and tan spray paint so your dogs fit in.


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## Matt Vandart

Lol, indeed.

I am finding myself more and more interested in GSD's to be honest though. I have never had one but I have to say, with more relevance to the thread, I have yet to see a dog from any other breed (even the best) show the same intensity in protection as the best GSD's, the closest maybe I have seen is a really good Doberman. Mals are intense but it seems in a different way if you get me.
What really strikes me about the really good GSD's is their controlled, methodical take on working, they just look like they 'think' more than many Mals. Maybe I just havn't seen a good Mal work like this.
Maybe this is another manifestation of the 'prey drive' than the headlong let's get in there kind of 'prey monkey' behaviour? More stalk than chase?


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## gsdsar

Matt, you are right. A good stable GSD thinks through his drives. It's a whole different world. They bring something that I have not seen in other breeds. Granted I have not worked Dobes. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack

hi Matt , friend of mine imported a working farm raised Doberman from Sweden -- ears down and tail natural. The dog screams confident strength. So different than the local bred and even German type, in a good way.
Person goes to local schutzhund club and they try to fit the square peg into the round hole -- make him a prey dog --- which just creates confusion. Put the dog with a good decoy and clarity and the dog is a super star. He impressed me . I would have and handle him any day.
He even tracks !


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## hemicop

BALANCE ! Without it you just have a "toy dog"! It's not what a GSD is, was bred for, intended to be or should EVER be!


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## cliffson1

? Balance!!!!!


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