# Buyer beware -



## MyDogGinger (Aug 18, 2014)

I am a second time owner of a GSD. My first dog Boris was trained along side Peter Burmeister and dogs from LAPD and LASD. It took years to get over his death. Finally six months ago I did my research and thought I found a good breeder and purchased a female to take home and train and eventually breed with the help of my 10 year old daughter who is a patient and consistent trainer.

Now for the sad news. It's now 6 months later and Ginger is 9 months old and has develeloped a tail that rides high and curled to the left, both ears have splits at the tips, and there is a missing tooth. I have had my club and a vet look at her and they believe these are genetic issues and she should not be breed. 

The breeder says I have no right to complain and if I want I can bring her back for a refund but now the dog is part of the family. It would crush my daughter if I did that. 

This has caused much heart ach for me knowing we can't breed her now. 

I asked the breeder to simply send me 50% of the cost of the dog and she refused. She also threatened me legally for talking about it publicly. None of my claims are false and can be substantiated with photos and testimonies.

Remember that a full refund sounds ok when you get the dog but once it's a part of the family it's a different story. I'll post pictures when I'm home.

I have to take some blame since I did choose the breeder but I hope this gives you something to think about while choosing yours.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What did the initial contract say? It sounds like the breeder is offering what most offer, actually more if she's offering a full refund for the return (many offer nothing, or a replacement puppy for the return). 

If you are looking to buy a foundation female for breeding, you will save yourself a lot of time and money spent on dogs that probably won't work out if you buy a dog that is old enough to more accurately evaluate the conformation, verify the dentition, and certify the hips and elbows. Many people spend decades owning and training dogs until they have a female they feel is breed quality.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

So were you looking for a show dog?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> If you are looking to buy a foundation female for breeding, you will save yourself a lot of time and money spent on dogs that probably won't work out if you buy a dog that is old enough to more accurately evaluate the conformation, verify the dentition, and certify the hips and elbows.


best advice ever


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I think this is a ridiculous "buyer beware." Buying a puppy is a crap shoot when it comes to "breedability." If you want to be a breeder, I would strongly suggest finding an adult female to start your program on. This way, you know what you have, health wise, temperament wise, workability, conformation, etc...There are absolutely no guarantees that a puppy will be a good FOUNDATION dog. If anything, I think it's pretty much a guarantee that most* puppies will not be breedable. I think it's pretty naive of you to think so, and makes me wonder whether you and your ten year old child really know what you're doing....doesn't make me question the breeder you got the puppy from, though.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

also their site states their pups run 1500-5k depending on how well together the puppy is put 
aka potential show and breeder

did you pay 5k or 1500?

if you paid 5k for a potential show and breeder then yes you have a case
if you got a 1500 pet quality dog then not so much


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> If you want to be a breeder, I would strongly suggest finding an adult female to start your program on.


so in other words, what liesje just said??



> both ears have splits at the tips


i would like to see a pic of this as i have never seen it
but at 9mos of age this is quite likely an environmental thing



> tail that rides high and curled to the left,


lol this is a 'sad news/ ironic you should say that as it is called a gay tail (gay meaning happy)



> a missing tooth


again this is not sad news??
elbow dysplasia is sad news 
a missing tooth is like, oh well


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I currently have a 10 month old dog with a kinked tail and a missing tooth...and I love him. Funny thing is, I never intended to keep him, but I got so attached. He's staying and he's already training in several sports and loving it. No breeding or showing for him, but that saves me a lot of time, money, and possible heartache.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also - mod hat - this site is not for breeder bashing (justified or not, not our call or our business) or airing grievances. If you see someone asking about this kennel, please PM that person if you want to share your experience.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Wow... I was planning to get my next puppy from ****.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

As mentioned the board has a "No Breeder Bashing" rule, so I removed all name and geographical references to the breeder. People may PM the OP if they want more info. 

(Admin hat off - board member hat on

I agree with the other though - blaming the breeder for such minor issues is misguided. There are no guarantees with a puppy, they are living things, genetics can be surprising. When you bought the pup, you agreed to the contract, can't blame the breeder for that now.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

When my dog was DX with left HD and bilateral elbow ED I re-read my contract. It is very clear what the guarantees would be. I did not expect anything outside of the contract. I also discussed it with my breeder. Not about getting a refund (which I never expected), but how to manage it to the best of my ability. My breeder was wonderful. However, I did not call acting angry and demanding things. I understand they breed doing what they can to prevent these things, but they can still pop up. I don't blame the breeder for that. Other puppies from the same litter are fine and one of the puppies from the first breeding is titled and showing. The genetics come together in every puppy differently.


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## MyDogGinger (Aug 18, 2014)

I am not here to bash a breeder even though she preached that she has never had any dogs with genetic problems. The ears have been looked at by other breeders and a vet. It has been determined to be genetic and not environment. We don't have any other dogs to split the tips of her ears. Returning her is not an option at this point and the breeder knows it. I simply believe I should get a 50% refund. I will have to buy another dog to breed when I can afford it. Having multiple issues like this should not be simply accepted as "oh well, it's a dog and I'm fine paying full price for a champion line GSD with multiple genetic defects." If I have to buy an older dog so I don't have this happen again I will. I can say that the people that have asked me about where I got my dog were not surprised to find I had problems.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

MyDogGinger said:


> I am not here to bash a breeder even though she preached that she has never had any dogs with genetic problems. The ears have been looked at by other breeders and a vet. It has been determined to be genetic and not environment. We don't have any other dogs to split the tips of her ears. Returning her is not an option at this point and the breeder knows it. I simply believe I should get a 50% refund. I will have to buy another dog to breed when I can afford it. Having multiple issues like this should not be simply accepted as "oh well, it's a dog and I'm fine paying full price for a champion line GSD with multiple genetic defects." If I have to buy an older dog so I don't have this happen again I will. I can say that the people that have asked me about where I got my dog were not surprised to find I had problems.


Did your contract say they give refunds? My contract clearly said no refunds. They would replace the dog if he had crippling HD/ED, but thankfully he does not. The contract is a legal document that needs to be honored by both sides. If it doesn't state anything about refunds you should no feel entitled to one.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you bought her to breed and she's not breed quality but the breeder will offer a refund, then I don't get the big deal. Return her for the refund or the replacement and hope to get a breedable dog. This happens all the time, most dogs are not breed quality. Getting a puppy lessens your chances even more. I do not know any breeders, good or bad, that allow a buyer to ask for a 50% refund AND keep their dog. It would be one thing if the dog had a health problem that was costly, but bad ear tips, missing teeth, and a gay or curled tail are aesthetic.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

The thing is that it doesnt matter what you believe or what the breeder believe. I guess what matters is the contract


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## marlowe (Aug 17, 2014)

If you are interested in becoming a breeder, I would find a breeder to mentor under. GSDs are incredibly complicated dogs, and the lines and genetics are intricate. 

My GSD breeder friend (now retired) spent decades learning about lines, percentages, rearing, anatomy, genetics, temperament and its fluidity, learning stages, on and on and ON. She bred for thirty years, and she could list offhand what lines matched hers, what genetic faults were present in her lines (ALL lines have SOME faults that pop up, ALL lines, period), what lines would correct what problems but at what cost. 

Some breeders will offer co-ownership, and if I was seriously interested in 'trying out' breeding, that is the direction I would look. That said, most breeders are very VERY picky about who they will co-own with--as they should be. Most won't do it at all.

But, if I decided I wanted to, that is how I would approach it. Mentor under someone with forty years experience, get their advice, follow their advice, etc. (I hasten to add that the co-ownership contracts that I know of involve the co-owner keeping an adult bitch and one pup from the litter. Not, you know, making any kind of profit. Certainly not deciding on the stud or bitch--maybe helping to decide, but not deciding entirely.)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP said "I will have to buy another dog to breed when I can afford it."

You will? 
In all my years I have never heard of a genetic split ear tip.
Your complaints are focusing on the cosmetics of the dog.

Temperament and other qualities not even considered?
If the dog had the tooth , and the tail carriage, and the ears were different , how would that dog rate as a GOOD breeding candidate.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Breeding a German Shepherd should only be done when a dog is outstanding, has proven itself with training and titles. The OP wants to breed a dog to have an activity with her child. Faults aside, I don't see anything posted that would indicate this is a good idea. Breeders spend years perfecting their lines. When you talk to successful GSD breeders most started out with a dog that was so outstanding for the breed they wanted to duplicate that. They don't go out and buy a puppy, then assume because it was expensive it will be a good prospect for breeding. Breeding just because one wants to is irresponsible. This isn't a criticism of the OP but I hope is a learning tool. Please learn more about the breed and pros and cons of breeding any two dogs before making a mistake.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

marlowe said:


> If you are interested in becoming a breeder, I would find a breeder to mentor under. GSDs are incredibly complicated dogs, and the lines and genetics are intricate.
> 
> My GSD breeder friend (now retired) spent decades learning about lines, percentages, rearing, anatomy, genetics, temperament and its fluidity, learning stages, on and on and ON. She bred for thirty years, and she could list offhand what lines matched hers, what genetic faults were present in her lines (ALL lines have SOME faults that pop up, ALL lines, period), what lines would correct what problems but at what cost.
> 
> ...


This is the best advice--find a good mentor.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

So....I actually know this breeder, this litter, and the co-breeder. I will not go into detail the sort of bullying and harassment that has already occurred, I will stick to the plain facts. 

I've seen the photos of these "split ears" and also of the "crooked" tail. I encourage the OP to post these photos. They are spectacularly horrible photos of cosmetic nonsense. 

The tail in the OP's photo was like this dog's tail:
Pan Myrtle Beach 2013-08-18-3 by Falon167, on Flickr

That dog is SG rated (hasn't been shown since old enough/titled enough for a V), and is a National level competition dog. The tail did not hold him back from showing or competing...or dock diving, lure coursing, or being a pet.

The contract is for a PET puppy. This PET puppy is actually being trained and working well in IPO (per the OP), so IMO that is above and beyond what the OP can ask for. IPO puppies just don't fall off the wagon into waiting arms. This is EXACTLY what the contract states, _"The above described dog is sold with the understanding that even though it may have show, or training potential, it is purchased mainly as a pet...Buyer agrees to have the dog examined by a licensed veterinarian within 72 hours of receipt of the dog. If as a result of the examination, a licensed veterinarian determines that a pre-existing illness is present at that time, then the Buyer may return the dog to seller...This dog is eligible for AKC LIMITED REGISTRATION."_ Seems to me that the dog was sold as a pet, NOT for breeding or showing, and also that no "genetic" illness such as splitting ears (which is not genetic, but a cosmetic flaw due to environment - such as a dog fight), was present when the puppy was bought. Is the OP stating that the ears grew and split as they grew? Like...into four ears?

I have a littermate living in my household that I've seen training at LEAST weekly since he was 8 weeks old. He is a phenomenal puppy. In fact, the litter's so phenomenal, that when the breeder (mentioned by the OP) decided to place her 5 month old littermate, Debbie Zappia bought her. Oh yeah, the litter is sired by her fantastic male, and out of the strongest females I've seen personally. Debbie is said to be very happy with her thus far. That means that of the litter, there are TWO PUPPIES in World competition homes. Two. That's awesome. On top of that, there are puppies from that litter (on top of these two) training with top trainers, that compete at a high level themselves. They are also thrilled with the puppies.

Here is the pedigree to this genetically inferior litter:

Bones Vom TeufelsGarten

The breeder in fact, offered a 100% refund with return of the dog, and the OP refused. Although he has stated that the temperament is great, and the dog is working, and the family loves her....the cosmetic "flaws" (that can't be proven) have driven him to demand a 50% refund AND to keep the dog. 

I saw this entire litter, handled, took photos of, and played with them (assisting in testing them for IPO prospects), there were no genetic defects. Now, a tail that wags to the left, perhaps. Split ears? No. A missing tooth? No idea, puppy teeth. But again, cosmetic.

In regards to this "She also threatened me legally for talking about it publicly. None of my claims are false and can be substantiated with photos and testimonies." No, she said she would get legal help if you continued to threaten and harass her. It is highly inappropriate. Also, please do post photos.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This is a litter mate to Deb's new female? 

Sorry, I call BS on the original poster. I have an Iron puppy. 

The missing tooth is a possibility but some have teeth coming in later. However, a missing tooth is not going to stop you from getting a Breed Survey.

Split ear tips? How is that even close to being genetically possible?

And my puppy has a gay tail when he jacked. But it lays perfect when he's calm. 



> None of my claims are false and can be substantiated with photos and testimonies.


So PLEASE post pictures of these genetic faults.


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