# Caring for an abused dog



## gretasgifttome

I have a foster dog that we absolutely know was beaten regularly by her owner. She is under two years old and pregnant. Her former owner got mad that she wasn't caring for her last litter of pups so he threatened to shoot her. She ran away, leaving her one day old pups behind and hid out in the woods for 7 or 8 months which is where she got pregnant again. She had to be trapped in a humane trap to get her into rescue. 

Since I have had her (one week) she escaped, thanks to some carelessness on my husbands part. Miraculously, she came back and I captured her when she entered into my basement to eat. She's very smart and knew where to get the food. I feel very fortunate to get her back. 

I have not cared for a dog this abused before. We connect with one another, but she gets nervous with ANY movement I make, even if its to get up from a sitting position. She will eat food from my hand. But she doesn't really want me touching her. She'll touch me and sniff me. The one time I did get my hands on her to scratch behind her ears, the tail was wagging. I see evidence that she has played with toys in my absence. 

I bought a DAP plug in, hoping that may help. Is there anything else I can do to help Mandy? I would like to be able to handle her before she delivers the pups so I can assist her as needed. I may have another week before she delivers. Suggestions please.


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## pinkanml

I would basically "ignore" her as much as possible, and let her settle in some more and just get used to you and your movements. Perhaps you can tie her to you with a long line? This will help her to bond with you, and as she gets more familiar, she'll get more comfortable with you being close, approaching her, etc. 

Obviously, lots of positive encouragement, TONS of food/praise when she takes the initiative to come to you, even if it's just to sniff you and dart away. She'll quickly realize you are there to help her. Thank you for taking her on!

ETA: Also, does she have a "safe" place to retreat to if she's stressed? I doubt she is crate trained, but perhaps you can set aside a room or corner of the room she can hide out in when she's not attached to you.


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## BowWowMeow

First of all, thanks for taking her in. I would concentrate first on just getting used to you being there without trying to do anything with/to her. 

If she has her own room, I would just sit down there on the floor and hang out (read, whatever). Don't make eye contact and allow her to come to you. I would put treats on your body. I'm not kidding--on your shoulder, legs, etc. and let her take them if she's comfortable. If not, then gently toss or roll them to her. I would get the yummiest thing possible--bits of cheese, sandwich meat, cooked chicken, jerky, etc.--because you want her to think of you as things good. 

When you get up or move around be sure not to look at her. 

You can also try using calming signals. Check out Turid Rugaas if you're not familiar with her work:

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

And here is an excellent website by a woman who has an extremely fearful border collie: http://www.fearfuldogs.com/


Keep us posted.


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## Hatterasser

Christi....

I've been working with an abused, troubled dog too...for a month now. I can empathize with you, gal. Just as with your baby, Seamus didn't want me touching him at all, hated being leashed (the bruise on my thigh is still evident from where he tangled the leash around my legs and we both tumbled down a flight of stairs).

Pinkanml has offered some very useful suggestions and I agree with all but the tying her to you with a leash until you know how she behaves on one. But I'd like to add some of the things I've been doing that are very successful so far.

I didn't try to pet him in the beginning. He's in a long wide hallway and I would simply go and sit on the floor and talk quietly to him while he ran around like a lunatic. Occasionally he would come close enough to touch me but he'd romp off quickly. After a month of letting him come to me when he was ready, he now sits next to me and even lets me hug him along with running my hands all over him. He's even making a lot of eye contact now, something he never did in the beginning. He'd look anywhere but AT me. And when I say talk to him, I mean I talked to him, about the weather, the other dogs (calling them by their names) and the cats, how he was feeling....totally inane stuff but just quietly letting him hear my voice and always using his name over and over again so he now knows who he is when I say "Seamus".

I used the same NILIF techniques I use with my other two dogs, especially at food time. He had to sit and stay until the bowl was on the floor and I released him. It took a lot of pulling the bowl back and waiting for him to get the idea but he knows now...and sits and stays until I say 'alright'. Same with his leash if he wants to go out...he has to sit quietly and stay while I hook it on. And I've found that if you do things at roughly the same time each day (walk, feed, water, play, etc.) it sets parameters for her which gives her a sense of security in that she knows what to expect; i.e. she realizes that every meal is not her last one, for example. 

Pinkanml mentions a safe retreat...what I call Seamus's 'hidey-hole'. He's had a small niche in the hall that he would hide in head first (his butt stuck out but I never mentioned it to him...*grins*) when he was scared or nervous. I'd try not to push her too much, let her come to you and let her decide when she feels comfortable with your touching her. Begin with quick scratches, when you get the opportunity, under her neck. That seems to be non-threatening to frightened dogs unlike head pats which scare them.

Mostly I'm just trying to make him feel secure and safe and after a month, he's coming along quite nicely. He's actually becoming a sweetheart. Now if only I could resolve his issues with my dog Thor. 

P.S. I was about to post and saw that BowWowMeow beat me to it....so we're saying much the same things. *laughing*


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## JanH

I've had a little work with this - unfortunately it didn't work with the one GSD I had that escaped/disappeared but it has worked on others. 

Sitting down on the floor and hand feeding her - I worked with one dog for a few weeks outside trying to get her, just sitting on the ground. Initially I set a small bowl of food down then as she realized I = food I started holding it out to her. I didn't try to grab her - just let her see that being with/near me and touching didn't mean hurt but rather something good. Letting her approach you leaves it in her court and lets her come at her comfort. 

The one I had, once she accepted being touched I'd massage her head and neck - giving her the option to retreat. The crate safe spot is a great thing also...*her* spot. 

Some dogs it seems voice really calms them - even nonsensical stuff just to hear a calm voice. With puppies on the way it's a fine line of caring for them without pushing her,especially if a bad situation before. But then too as their eyes open and they get friendly it may instill more confidence in her. 

Abused dogs take time and patience but are so worth it. Sometimes just when you think you're not getting anywhere she'll make that leap forward and initiate contact.


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## chjhu

I would suggest hand-feeding her and basically letting her take initiative.
I rescued a dog that was on her own in the woods for 4 years and was trapped finally. She came around very nicely in a few months. You cannot really rush things with these dogs. 
Having the pups can make it both better or worse. My previously angel Alma would not let me touch her puppies for a week.
Good luck to you.


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## blackbirdzach

Lots of good advice above. Body language is important when you're working with an abused dog. When you're walking around the house stand tall and confident, and keep a happy demeanor about yourself. Smile if it helps. You're whole posture will change when you smile. You want to look like your in charge. But when you approach the dog, do NOT stand over her or pet her from above. When the dog is ready for this she will initiate it. 

It's important that you don't "mope" around looking depressed and feeling sorry for her. This is weakness and will be picked up by the dog. My methods for working with a skiddish or hand shy dog is this. 

- You MUST walk the dog. Just one on one, at least 45 minutes a day. Walking time is bonding time. 

- Make most of your touches "accidental" until the dog becomes more comfortable with you. While she is walking beside you, graze her ears lightly with your hand, but don't look at her. Just pretend it was an accident. Do this often. 

- Hand feed the dog one on one. You'll want everyone in the house to take part in this. The person feeding her needs to be alone with her without distractions. 

- When her confidence gets built up a little you can try petting her. Sit down on the floor and call her to you. You can also leash her and slowly pull her to you while calling her name. Pet her on the chest ONLY. 

It will take a while to gain her trust but be patient. Thanks so much for taking her in. Abused dogs are the toughest type of dog to work with...even an aggressive dog is easier to train because aggression has it's uses and outlets. 

Example of an abused dog; 

petting from above. You can see she is cowering under my hand. 










Now I'm sitting on the ground petting her chest. Her mouth is open, her ears are up, and her tail is straight down (not tucked).


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## bluetick

I've had much less experience than the others who have responded, and their ideas all seem very sound. My first abused GSD was 18 months old when I got him, and it took 6 months for him to wag his tail. Key things for him included a calm, quiet atmosphere. If I rattled a newspaper or picked up a flyswatter or broom, he flinched and took off to another room in the house. Moving slowly and talking quietly both helped him become more confident in himself, and realize I wasn't going to hurt him. He became my shadow, and sadly, he died last fall at age 11. 

My second abused GSD is now 2 and is sleeping behind the couch in the livingroom. He has been here a year, and is a harder nut to crack in some ways. Raised in filth in a crate, it took about 10 months to housebreak him! He is friendly with me, and enjoys being petted, but prefers the company of other dogs. We are both grieving over having to put down my 10 year old GSD last week. He is now the only dog , and needs a companion to play with. Since it is just the two of us right now, I am trying to get him a little more people oriented.


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## gretasgifttome

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. Seems the major factor here is patience on my part.


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## selzer

And she delivers in a week? 

Have you had puppies before?

I like the idea of sitting down with her there but ignoring her and letting her make the move toward you. 

However, when she has her puppies in a week, you will need to handle them right away and often. So hopefully you can dedicate this week to making this bitch comfortable with you. Where does she sleep? Have you set up a whelping box of some sort yet? If it were me, and I did not have to work, I would be spending 24/7 in her presence, getting her used to me, but not pushing her to accept me. Treats are nice, but I would probably set them in her dish and not try to get her to take them off of me and not throw them toward her. I would set them in her dish and ignore her. I think the quickest way to get her to trust you is to let her come to you on her own. 

If hand feeding will stress her out, she does not need that right now. In fact, try not to stress her at all. She needs food and plenty of it. Also, it may be a nice idea that after you finish your meal, you set your dish on the floor for her to finish, again with no strings attached. When preparing her meal, use your hands, put your smell all over that kibble. She needs to know it comes from you. And she needs to associate your smell with good things. 

Do your absolute best to walk slow, move slowly, talk in a subdued voice all the time. High pitched, excited talk, yelling, loud boisterous talk, all of that can do harm right now, even if you are not in the same room. Give her plenty of warning when you are moving to get up or down. Quick abrupt movements will not help her trust you. 

Good luck with her and the litter.


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## gretasgifttome

> Originally Posted By: selzerAnd she delivers in a week?
> 
> Have you had puppies before?
> 
> I like the idea of sitting down with her there but ignoring her and letting her make the move toward you.
> 
> However, when she has her puppies in a week, you will need to handle them right away and often. So hopefully you can dedicate this week to making this bitch comfortable with you. Where does she sleep? Have you set up a whelping box of some sort yet?


Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, I have whelped probably about ten litters over the years, mostly foster German Shepherds. I am pretty much the maternity foster and puppy person for German Shepherd Rescue of Central Alabama. I have a commercial whelping box that was donated to me that a breeder no longer needed. 

I have it set up so she will get used to the sight of it. Her food bowl and water bucket is in the same vicinity as the whelping box and several times a day I plant some tasty treats inside the box so she'll venture on in. I hope she gets comfortable with it. 

I will handle her kibble. I had not thought of that. She takes boiled chicken, cheese cubes from my hands now. She will take them from off the sofa next to me. The biggest thing that seems to scare her is my movements, so I have slowed them down a little. And I tell her that 'I am getting up now' so she'll be prepared for my movements. I act nonchalant when she reacts to my movements also. The key does seem to be letting her come to me as she is comfortable. She is no where near me reaching out for her.


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## gretasgifttome

Ya'll don't forget about me and Mandy here in Alabama. She's getting bigger by the minute!! I saw the babies moving in her belly this AM. Twice in the past two days, the bedding has been messed with in her whelping box. I believe she's starting to nest. 

I think I need some Rescue Remedy myself. I am starting to feel nervous that we have not made more progress than we have. I know we are making progress because she follows me everywhere I go and is very curious about what I do. I have been a human treat dispensor for the past week now and she wags her tail, noses me - actually touching me on her own, takes food out of my hand, lets me bring my hand closer to her with food in it and she comes toward me slowly to get the food, rather than going in reverse. 

Mandy has become more relaxed. She will lay down soon after I come into the room. She keeps her eyes on me, though. THREE times now she has not gotten up from a laying postion when I have risen from the couch to leave the room. Before she was darting away when even I breathed differently, much less moved. She still doesn't want me to reach out and touch her just to pet her. 

I know there is progress made, especially after I see what I wrote, but I feel the birth will take place very soon and I don't want to upset her in any way.


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## 4dognight

Just sending good thoughts your way. I will watch this post to see how you and mandy are doing


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## melonyjhsn

Good thoughts to you and Mandy. I love that name!







Sounds like she's making great progress in such a short time. It's heartbreaking when they come to you so fearful. Just hang in there!


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## WiscTiger

Do you think the Bitch has every had a littler before? If yes then odds are she will know what to do. There was a gal that got a rescue last year and the female had pups I believe on St.Patricks day. The bitch was very uncomfortable having her to close while she was whelping. We had tons of posts back and forth during whelping. Just relax, be there or as close as she is comfortable with you being. If she isn't comfortable with you messing with the pups to much, then unless one of the pups is in problems let them be.


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## melonyjhsn

> Originally Posted By: ChristiI have a foster dog that we absolutely know was beaten regularly by her owner. She is under two years old and pregnant. Her former owner got mad that she wasn't caring for her last litter of pups so he threatened to shoot her. She ran away, leaving her one day old pups behind and hid out in the woods for 7 or 8 months which is where she got pregnant again. She had to be trapped in a humane trap to get her into rescue.


Mandy has a history. I totally understand why you're nervous Chris. Staying clam is good advice though


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## gretasgifttome

Right now, as I type, Mandy is having her pups. I am so nervous. All I know is I have seen one puppy and it appeared to be healthy and clean. And Mandy didn't hop up and leave her nest when I entered the room. Once slight change of plans.... she opted against using the whelping box that was set up so comfy cozy. She knocked the cushions off the sofa and is having them right there on the couch. 

I had been gone since about noon today. Just got in at 6:30 PM and was feeding everyone. Then I went downstairs to feed her and walked into a big surprise. My gut is telling me to give her space to do this on her own, but I don't know if that is the right thing to do. If they'll nurse and nuzzle tonight, I can disturb her tomorrow. 

They can't stay on the sofa. Once they start moving, they'll fall down and that won't be good. Since she chose her area. I think I'll bring the whelping box to her and put it across from the sofa where she was so comfortable laying before. Do you think I should go sit down there with her? Maybe try to read a book and not interfere? 

I usually don't get nervous during whelping, but this time I feel sort of helpless. I think I know her enough to know what she wants me to do. But I am also wondering if she needs me and chose to have them on the sofa where I used to sit. 

I need to go check the whelping box to see if she had anything there and just accidentally had this one on the sofa.


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## WiscTiger

As long as she has them cleaned up and they are nursing I wouldn't stress her for at least a few hours.


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## WiscTiger

Chris how are you and Mandy doing??

Just a thought, do you have any Vanilla Ice cream in the house? If yes try coaxing her to eat a good heaping table spoon after she has a puppy cleaned up. The calcium in the Ice cream will help keep the contactions coming, the fluid will help her her hydrated and the sugar will help keep her energy up.


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## gretasgifttome

I can go get some ice cream. Since she decided to have them on my sofa, I quietly sat on the dog bed across from her. I just saw pup #2 be born. She did a fine job. She isn't acting nervous, actually calmer than I have ever seen her. I have seen the older pup nurse, the newer one is moving about too. I have just left her and feel alot better about seeing how she handled a birth.


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## WiscTiger

Oh that sounds good. The Contractions also stimulate milk flow. 

I hope the DH isn't going to get upset about the couch, some guys really don't have a humor about these things.


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## gretasgifttome

The couch was a freebie! (Got to love FreeCycle). I have another freebie lined up when this one is gone. My last foster pup already had her way with the arm rest so it was pretty much a dog couch anyway. And it's in my downstairs, not the main living area. 

This second pup seemed HUGE and she had to get in several different positions to birth him (or her). I was beginning to get a bit concerned. I'll keep a close eye on her tonight. We are also expecting tornado weather from about midnight on. 

I am hoping she doesn't have the normal large gsd litter since these are apparantly mixed. Most all the gsds I have had here had at least 10 pups. It would be nice if she would stop with 4.


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## WiscTiger

Chris I posted a note to the other Mods who are more Night Owls than me to check in and see how things are going for you and Mandy.

I am glad things are going well so far. I will for sure check back in the morning and maybe tonight one more time tonight.

Val


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I am following this! I changed the header so you'll get a bigger audience. 

Sounds like she is doing great! I can't wait to see pics of the pups! Gsd mixes are my favorite. 

Glad she is handling everything so well. Continue to keep us posted.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

She just snarled and snapped in the air at me when I put a bowl of ice cream beside her. Now what?


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## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I would just leave it where she can get it and give her space for right now.


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## ILGHAUS

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I know you have your hands full right now and I did try to send you a PM but your box must be full.

I had an email of yours forwarded to me from Putnam Co. Animal Control (the County Shelter) asking if I could do a HV. When you have time send me a PM and I'll try to work something out if you haven't gotten someone else in the meantime. Ms. Sheri is the person that contacted me and you may already have received an email back from her.


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## melonyjhsn

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

How are things going? Great night to have puppies, huh? Here comes the storms....


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Yea, I have my four storm phobic gsds surrounding me right now. Their safe place is between my legs. 

Well, I am just glad that Mandy is not out in this having her pups somewhere. Her snarl took me off guard a little so I am checking on her a little less often. Last check was about 2 hours ago and I believe I saw four. I really need to get some sleep so I can appear confident to Mandy and not nervous like I feel now. But trying to sleep will be futile with the storms. Thanks for checking on us.


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## melonyjhsn

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I feel for you on the storm phobia. Poor Toby has to be at my feet when one rolls in or else! He'll tear up a room or find a way out of a crate during a storm. He'll even stop mid-pee if he hears thunder off in the distance and make for the door. Top speed!









Remember that she just needs the space and it’s not personal. I'm sure she's glad to be in a loving home. It's hard not to let those things rattle you though. *hugs* to you guys.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris I hope the Storms wern't to bad for you and that you and Mandy are both OK.

I am sure with her past and the storm, plus the fact that she isn't really sure in her head and heart that she can trust you is why she snarled and snapped at you. The Ice cream was just a thought that it might help her.

So how are things?


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

After several hours of sleep, I feel better. The ice cream was a good idea. It's gone! Mandy had the little bowlful I put next to her and I had the rest. I believe, more so than anything, I got too close to her and the pups with the ice cream. I put it right there on the sofa where she could get to it easily. 

From the looks of things, it doesn't appear that her feet have touched the ground since she gave birth. No food/water missing, no teetee either. So the idiot owner that had her before was wrong when he accused her of not taking care of her puppies. She was probably just terrified of him. 

So, all in all, I am still encouraged that the pups are happy, clean and warm and have their mother. While not in the cleanest nest, they do have her. 

I have decided that commencing to a simpler level is what I need to do. A lot like when Mandy first got here. Slow down my movements, don't wear out my welcome with her, gain her trust again under these new circumstances. I have spoken to her this AM. I have moved her water and food closer to her so she doesn't have to get far from the babies and have put down a bowl of buttermilk also. 

I broke down the whelping box and throughout the day, carefully, I will move it across from the sofa where she had been laying on a blanket. I'll put her blanket with her sent in the box when it's put together and start off by wishing really hard, she'd just move the pups over there herself. If not, then I'll find a plan B. They need to be where they are dry and I am sure that sofa is damp. 

I still can't tell the number, but I don't think it's more than four. It may just be three. And I assume she is finished since it has been at least 14 hours since I predict she started. A small litter will be better on both of us. I see a black one with a white chest and feet. Another one that is black/tan and another one that is solid tan. Two of them are really huge puppies. 

Still open to any good suggestions from the board.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Just sit at a distance from her, just talk in a nice calm voice and maybe toss her some yummy bits of cooked chicken or some cooked beef. Hopefully she will see that you mean no harm to her and her little ones. She is only what about 2 weeks from running free? She has MAJOR trust issues which you can blame on her. I can't imagine how afraid she right now, only she and the creep X owner know what she went through. Just try to keep yourself as less treatening as possible.

I know you would like her to go out and go potty, but she may be so scared to leave her pups. Just a thought do you have an area where you could put down a bunch of news paper, cover with a heavy plastic and put some wood shavings on the plastic. The newspaper will soak up and liquid incase there is a whole in the plastic and the wood chips smell a whole lot better than wet newspaper. You can get a bale of wood chips at places that handle feed for horses.

Have you read the Calming Signals book, that might be helpful.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Val, She had a spot picked out in the floor that she was using for a bathroom. It is covered with towels, newspaper and a wee wee pad. I was just downstairs changing that. I started a load of laundry. She is familiar with the sound of the washing machine. So doing those two things wouldn't be too much of a stressor for her. 

While I was down there, a heard a pup crying in distress and was tangled under a blanket on the sofa. I pulled the blanket off of it so it could get back to its momma. Mandy moved, snarled at me again. Now one of the pups is in the floor. This is what I expected would soon start happening. They would fall off the couch. Now how I am supposed to get that puppy back to it's momma when she's giving me the evil eye?

All the dogs that I have helped whelp have been comfortable with me helping and holding their babies. This is a first for me and I am not sure what to do. Will Mandy pick the pup up herself? I know momma dogs move them from time to time and it would be possible for her to do that. 

I need to go get some chicken to boil. It is her favorite. Should I just stay clear of the area all day today?


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

This is such a tough case with Mandy. She is almost like a wild dog, her being on her own for the length of time and not having good human association before she ran is all running through her head right now.

I have some fear if you try to get too involved with the pups right now that it will stress her too much. As hard as it is, just let her and mother nature take care of them and what happens happens. I know that sounds mean, but pushing your loving intentions on her and the pups if she isn't ready could be a disaster.

She has so much baggage for a young dog, it is just a shame that she couldn't have been caught sooner, but that wasn't to be. 

Try setting up the box or some place where you would like her to pup the pups. After you have given her some chicken, always leave a few pieces there. If she eats them while you are gone, then slowly move her food and water closer to the box. Make sure the box is in a nice warm spot.

I would just sit some distance away from her that she is comfortable with and talk, hum or sing softly. toss little bits of food to her. Don't ignore her. I think in her mind she is either expecting someone to be mean to her or ignore her, so I don't think totally ignoring her is the thing to do. Just try to find a distance where she doesn't feel threatened.

This is just such a tough situation. I am glad that you were able to take her in and try to handle this big challenge.

Val


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, just had another thought. You might want to look at getting some Comfort Zone, it is a DAP (Dog Appeasing Phermones) it comes as a plug in and a spray. If you can get both then when you get the box set back up and I would only put newspaper in there, put a few spritzes of the spray in the box. 

Val


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I have the DAP plug in. It's been going about 2 weeks. I just stuck my head through the door and she did get the puppy off the floor and back onto the sofa... or so it seems. I just can't tell what all is going on but there is a tan puppy next to her. 

She glared at me. I tried to walk around to the washer without getting near her and she growled and acted as if she might just lunge. So, I eased on out. 

I think she is very stressed right now and I'll just leave well enough alone for a few hours, maybe all day. She has what she needs, food and water. Maybe she'll settle down. I'll go on out and do my shopping, so the house will be quiet. I am feeling very helpless and now a little scared of her too. I can't disquise my fear so I hope to have a new perspective when I get back home.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, I can understand since you don't know her and she doesn't know you how you could feel afraid of her. I am sure she is just being protective and defensive of her pups and she is probably afraid of you too. She is more like a feral dog than an abandoned dog.

Giver her time and space when she is seeming really stressed, but don't just totally ignore her. Try to find some place in the room where she is some what comfortable with you being there. Stay for 10 mins or so, just talking softly and making yourself very nonthreathening. Even if you have to keep your back to her, just talk real soft and then slowly get up and leave.

Have faith that you and Mandy will get through this. I know that it is going to be difficult, but reight now I don't think trying to do to much with her is an option.

Val


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## StGeorgeK9

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

This is a great thread! I wish you the best!!!


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Evening update:

I feel tensions easing up a bit. As I posted earlier, I had clothes in the washer. After I got home from shopping, I went into the downstairs through the outside entrance. I walked right up to the washer and unloaded it and put my clothes in the dryer. I didn't glance at Mandy at all, kept my back to her. Minded my own business. Did it again to take the clothes out of the dryer. 

I boiled her some chicken. I broke about half a boneless breast up into four pieces. This time I used the indoor entrance. I walked downstairs, opened the door, spoke to her, glanced at her and gently tossed the three pieces of chicken toward her. I went around the back way and tossed the last piece (small pieces of it) into the 'whelping box' where I hope she may eventually decide to go. 

Dang if two pups were not squealing in the floor. I ignored them. Boy is that hard to do.!! It goes against everything in me to not try to help them. Mandy got them back on the sofa (I think) and when I went to check on things the chicken had been eaten. Finally, her first bite of food since yesterday AM. Nothing else, but at least she got off the sofa once. 

I admit, I am surprised at myself for being this tense about the situation. I hope to be able to fake it until I am no longer nervous and hopefully Mandy will feel me relax too. She wasn't so wolf-like when I tossed the chicken her way this afternoon, hopefully the scent of it reminded her of me feeding it to her out of my hands. 

I believe I got afraid earlier today when I looked into her eyes. I felt like I was looking into the eyes of a wild animal. I'll be only very casual with my glances from now on. 

I got this picture of her yesterday AM. You can just see the questions in her eyes. I just wanted you to see my pretty girl.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Mandy's a looker!







Have you ever read 'For the love of a dog' or 'The Other End of the Leash'? Both books talk about 'hard eyes' and how chilling the look can be. I don't blame you for being shaken up. Give her a few days and let her system return to normal and see if she doesn't calm down even more. Keep doing what you're doing though. Sounds like progress!

BTW- I have a pump spray bottle of Comfort Zone. I meant to buy the plugin for Toby but ordered the wrong thing… Opps! You're welcome to it. I can bring it in your direction and meet you somewhere one of these mornings. You can give Val's suggestion a try, if you like.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Just checking in. She's beautiful and you're doing a great job. 

Try not to look at her at all. That can be very threatening. She does not yet trust you so I think tossing the chicken while looking sideways in a good plan. Turid Rugaas has a website with an article on calming signals: http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1
There is also a gallery so you can see them. 

Can you put something soft under the sofa so the puppies don't hurt from falling? Can you put the whelping box directly underneath it?

Also, I'm worried she's not getting enough food/water since she's feeding the pups. Can you give her some raw chicken? Like a leg and thigh? Or more cooked chicken if you're not comfortable feeding raw?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
> Can you put something soft under the sofa so the puppies don't hurt from falling? Can you put the whelping box directly underneath it?


Hi, I can't get that close to the puppies without feeling threatened. I wish I could. I am just glad to see her finally eating. I think that her appetite will pick up quickly. I hope our interactions together can soon get on the right track again. This is turning out to be quite the challenge.


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

wow Mandy is beautiful.

You sure have your hands full. Keep us posted. So glad the board is here to support you. What about the other dogs, they must be curious.


----------



## DianaM

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I don't know if this would be a good idea, I'd like the experienced people and breeders to weigh in on it before you try this, but what about sitting in the room at her threshold (when she notices you and gets wary but before she starts threatening), your side to her side so you're not facing her, and reading children's books to her out loud? Children's books have such a nice tone that when you read them out loud, you can't help but be perky and happy and pleasant and not one bit threatening. With something happy to concentrate on, your nervousness may subside (I bet she reacts even more when you get nervous or worried) and the sound of your voice when you're not facing her or looking at her may be reassuring. Maybe you can even work up to sitting closer to her, little by little. Just don't face her or look at her, move gently yet matter-of-factly, and sit down with some good kids' books. 

Just a thought, hopefully not a birdbrained one.


----------



## selzer

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Have you considered putting a board over top of the whelping box so that it looks kind of like a dog house/den. She can move her puppies in there herself where she feels they will be safe. Then when you come into the room, you cannot see the pups and she can come out eat and go back to them. 

Not sure if it is a good idea or not, but if she thinks they are squirreled away and safe, she may allow you to take her outside too.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Originally Posted By: selzerHave you considered putting a board over top of the whelping box so that it looks kind of like a dog house/den. She can move her puppies in there herself where she feels they will be safe. Then when you come into the room, you cannot see the pups and she can come out eat and go back to them.
> 
> Not sure if it is a good idea or not, but if she thinks they are squirreled away and safe, she may allow you to take her outside too.


I like this idea. It's worth a try and fairly easily done by flattening out a large cardboard box. 

In response to the reading books, another friend and it's mentioned here too suggested humming or singing when in her presence. 

I sure am glad some experienced gsd people are hear to help us too. My good friend Brenda is a collie breeder. She's been my sounding board too and has her collie webboard offering suggestions.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Oh, Melanie, thank you for the offer of the DAP spray. I'll buy it from you so you are not out any money.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, Mandy is a pretty pretty gal.

Hang in there, things will get better. She is just so confused.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Originally Posted By: ChristiOh, Melanie, thank you for the offer of the DAP spray. I'll buy it from you so you are not out any money.


It's a gift!







I've no need for it and you do, so it's yours. Email me and lets see if we can't set up a time and place to meet up.


----------



## kshort

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris,
I remember when MomtoBeauandRiley went through this with a new rescue dog. She had her less than a week when she had 9 puppies! She had the same problems - momma wasn't too happy with her being in the room. The good news is that it did get much better and momma finally accepted her being in there. Here's the link to the thread. The puppy birth starts on about page 6 of that thread. There's some great information:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=98549&page=0&fpart=5

Mandy is gorgeous! In that picture, she looks confused. I'm sure she can't believe she's not being beat. That may be part of the problem. If the owner didn't think she was taking care of her other litters, it's hard telling what he did to her and what's going through her mind right now. Can you get her to go outside to potty? That's when MomtoBeauand Riley would go in and weigh the puppies and check to make sure everything was okay with them.

Good luck and thank you so much for giving this beautiful mom a chance. These puppies have a bright future thanks to you!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Kris, Thanks for the link. My brain was trying to rack who it was that had the Rescue litter...


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Calm and mellow talking or singing is a good idea and can help because - in addition to getting her used to you generally - it's a non predatory behavior. People who are sneaking up on you don't make noise. Therefore keeping up a non threatening dialogue can help her know where you are and that you're not sneaking up on her or up to anything. 

That said, even moms without her history can be very weird the first 2 weeks after whelping so I'd go very slow and do a bare minimum of what's needed to keep the puppies as safe as possible. 

She's really beautiful and reminds me in both appearance and temperament of my abuse victim/fear boy Griffin - he was a wreck when I brought him home but on the plus side, he didn't immediately have puppies! My heart goes out to you both.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Thanks for that link to Almas puppy affair. I enjoyed reading it and seeing the darling pictures. 

Mandy had not gotten comfortable with my touching her in the 2 weeks I had her. I could see progress every day and was so encouraged by her progress. I'll see how tomorrow goes. I'll probably stick my head in the door just once and tell her good night.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Do you know anything about her history beyond that she was abused? I've worked with fear aggressive dogs who were once normal puppies but sustained heavy abuse and became terrified of people, and I've worked with fear aggressive dogs who were fearful because they were basically like wild animals and had never bonded with people at all. The latter takes A LOT longer to come around in my experience.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

No, all I know is she was a breeder dog. (She can't be more than 2). It was just told to me by the dogs original rescuers that she was beaten on a regular basis. Don't know what that consisted of. 

In just watching her mannerisms before the puppies came, she seemed to have a puppyish playful nature. Tail wags, following me around, even getting into some things she wasn't supposed to. Tasty treats really brought her forward. She had started nudging me a little to get the treat. I was letting her touch me since she didn't want me reaching out for her. 

I wish I knew more about her past, but I just don't. 

I was not fearful of her before the pups came, but she did startle me a time or two darting away from me so quickly. She seems to be very sensitive to motion. I didn't get the feeling she would bite except when I (unsuccessfully) tried to change her collar.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I wondered about that - a lot of what you've described sounds like the semi-feral mill dogs we see. 

But the fact that she was interested in treats, wagging her tail, and following you is incredibly promising! Hopefully it's just the new litter that's making her nutty. 

I have been working with a very similar dog - almost totally feral mill dog - for the past 9 months. I've now got her to where I can take her for walks (harnessed always), she will give me kisses especially on my face and legs, she follows me around and makes happy noises and "smiles" but she STILL doesn't want me reaching out for her. I think that's the last barrier to go. My next step is to do some intensive clicker training working towards being able to touch her with my hands. She's at a point where I can handle her if I corner her and she's not aggressive, but she won't let me touch her voluntarily. 

I've spent a lot of time just hanging out near her working and chatting with her. Once she learned that I wasn't going to grab her she became much more comfortable and trusting. 

Of course, I have a MAJOR advantage over your situation because Pixie only weighs 4.5 pounds! 

ETA - Pixie REALLY likes other dogs and that's been very useful. She takes cues from them that I'm okay. Hopefully your pup will be the same once she stops being so freaked out by having new puppies.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

4.5 pounds!! Ok, so yours is not a gsd. The situation you describe in yours sounds alot like Mandy. I was told she was good with other dogs but due to her pregnancy, I never introduced her to my dogs. She has seen them, but didn't want to stay in their vicinity. 9 months, huh. I appreciate your feedback.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, How are thing going? Is Mandy eating and drinking?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Not that I can tell. She only eats the boiled chicken I toss her way. I have some of the liquid off the boiled chicken. I think I'll put that is a bowl and maybe it will get her going. Looks like mom and pups are cozy on the couch. They seem content. I have not gotten into her personal space this AM. I have gone down and spoken to her and I did go start a load of clothes, without looking at her, keeping my back to her. I am not sure if I see any peepee anywhere either. And I know the stools will be yucky due to the placentas. I'll write when I got back down with the chicken brothe. Hope to check things out further.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Quote: 9 months, huh.


BUT keep in mind that when I brought her home she had NO interest in humans whatsoever. It was weeks before she'd even come out of the crate if anyone was around. We put her in our bedroom and let her use pee pads (more advantages to her being tiny) and it was like living with a squirrel or something. You'd walk into the room, there would be a flash of black, and she was _gone_! So, although your problems with aggression are much more serious than mine (being bitten by a 5 lb dog, not such a big deal) at least if your girl was trying to interact with you after only a week or so, hopefully she'll improve more quickly once this baby business is better.









Glad to hear everyone's cozy this morning.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, make up some white rice and over cook it, then mix your cut up chicken and broth so you have a thick soup. This will giver her food and liquids in one shot. I am worried that she isn't eating or drinking, if you don't get fluids in her the milk will dry up.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Ok. I bought rice yesterday. Thank you!!!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Mandy did not clean the bowl of chicken and rice, but she drank alot of the juice off the top and picked through it for the chicken. I am cooking more chicken now and will add some more stock to the mixture. At least keep the fluid in her. No potties anywhere. Not since Monday. I am worried too now. I will fill her bowl back up with chicken and juice before I leave the house. I'll be gone a couple hours and hopefully she'll do something then. Bless her heart. I hope she knows how much I love her. I saw two pups not nuzzled with her. They were quietly squirming with each other. I know if pups are hungry, they'll yell, so hopefully they are getting enough. I have some nutristat and some honey. Would it help if I put it in her bowl of food? What about rescue remedy?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Finally have peepee! I take that as another sign in the right direction. Leaving home for a couple hours. Will update tonight.


----------



## DianaM

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

How about blending the chicken and rice, some raw egg and shells (for calcium), and water to make a slurry that tastes like chicken? Very hydrating and it may convince her to eat the whole thing. You can doctor it up with whatever you want to add. If she likes it, try to blend some good kibble in it as well for added nutrition. Dogs like stinky, soupy glop.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Diana, my suggetion was to keep it simple since she hasn't eaten in a few days, figured bland and simple would be easier on her system. The main point is to get some food and liquid in.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I just got home. Got my laundry out of the dryer. Glanced her way. She did 2 potty!! on the newspaper and tinkled some more. I was able to change the soiled paper also, getting closer to her than I have been since the growl and (almost) lunge yesterday about this time. 24 hours.... no growling. 

I have not checked the food bowl yet, but will make her a fresh mixture to carry downstairs. 

I still don't know much about the pups, though.


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Keep the updates coming. I am praying for you and her.


----------



## kshort

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

What about baby food to stimulate her appetite? It settles well in the tummy and I've never known a cat or dog that wouldn't eat it. I've always stuck to chicken and gravy or turkey and gravy. A little pricey for a big dog, but sometimes just a couple of tablespoons on top will get them started.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, I am liking the sounds of a #2 and a little pee. That is a good sign. Now let's hope she ate her food. If she starts eating that good then you can start adding some puppy food, you might have to let it soak, but lets take thing one step at a time.

No growling or snapping is another good sign.

Give her a little more time, then maybe you can get her to go for a little walk outside and someone can check on the pups. 

Com'on Mandy, Chris is just trying to help you.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Ok... Mandy had finished the bowl of food from this AM...







empty. Of course she moved it closer to her and I can't retrieve the empty bowl without upsetting her. And when I brought her the evening meal, she hunkered down on top of the puppies and refused to make eye contact with me. I think we are moving in a better direction. 

I definitely saw four squirming, content puppies.


----------



## Castlemaid

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, I'm sorry that I have not experience with this type of situation and cannot offer help, but just wanted to say how much I respect and admire your for taking on this girl. 

Thank you.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Things sound good. Maybe getting some food and liquid in her belly will make her feel better. I know when I have a dog that isn't eating because they don't feel good, they get a little touchy, so imagine how this poor little gal feels. 

Can you tie something to the bowl so you could pull it back from her without envading her space.


----------



## DianaM

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Val, I agree with keeping it simple. Maybe it didn't come out in my post but even blending just chicken and rice and water together would help her get lots more nutrition AND fluid in. The whole idea was to blend it into a soup, not really what to put in it.



> Quote:And when I brought her the evening meal, she hunkered down on top of the puppies and refused to make eye contact with me.


This is better than being super protective!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Well, to my surprise today, I saw 5 puppies. They are all happy, content and nursing. She seems to be doing a wonderful job as a mother. 

In keeping with our routine, I invited her to come outside to do her business. The garage door opens into a fenced area. She came to the door, looked outside briefly, twice. She didn't come outside, but I think she will soon. Wow, is she skinny now! 

She is eating well and I think we are on the right track as long as I don't get careless. I must always remember how sensitive she is right now and be mindful of that. So, it's not your typical joyful birth. But for Mandy, it's going extra well, I would say.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris that sounds great. In a day or so you might want to add some quality puppy food to the soup mix. 

I think you are doing a great job with Mandy. You know she is such a nice looking dog, your heart just goes out to her because of the poor treatment she got in the past. 

Bless you gal for taking on this challenge. Forgive her for growling and snapping at you, she was just living on her instincts.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger Forgive her for growling and snapping at you, she was just living on her instincts.


She actually looked a little apologetic a few times today. Her eyes are softer, but I am going to continue ignoring the pups and just feeding and talking to her.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

So glad to hear things are moving in a better direction. 

Is she eating enough? How many times a day are you feeding her? That's my biggest concern.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
> Is she eating enough? How many times a day are you feeding her? That's my biggest concern.


I am feeding her two full meals, morning and night. About 1.5 cups of kibble, drenched in chicken stock, some rice and some chunks of boiled chicken breast. In between visits, I am tossing her about 1 whole boneless chicken breast in bite sized amounts. At some point, I may phase out the chicken. I feed Canidae All Life Stages. 

She's not gobbling her food, but seems to be leisurely eating it and given several hours will clean the bowl. Water intake is not so great. Maybe the broth is helping that?


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Might be time to cut back on the chicken and use it more as a treat so she keeps eating her dog food. I wouldn’t worry too much about the water intake as long as she's drinking the stock and still going potty. 

More progress!







Keep the chicken handy for when the pups get old enough and they start interacting with you. She may need some more reassurance then.

Maybe you could sneak a few puppy pictures soon? Maybe turn off the flash on the camera so you don't startle her?


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

That sounds good. Did she gobble food before she had the pups. Some dogs are inhalers of food others not, plus I am sure she stops eating and checks on the pups. The reason I mentioned puppy food is it has a bit more protein and fat content both of which she could use.


----------



## angelaw

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I would if possible right now, just free feed her. Keep the bowl full and let her eat when she wants. She needs every bit to help with the pups.


----------



## Betty

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I've added a little goats milk to water and to food to get them to eat/drink. I've also given them goats milk by itself.

If you don't have any on hand most Wal Marts carry it.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I just got the 'back off' look with a nose twitch. Oh, well. My husband is in from out of town. I have instructed him NOT to go downstairs. I will do his laundry for him. Whether he listens to me or not is left to be seen. Keep fingers crossed.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Fingers crossed. 

Chris I think it is normal that you are seeing the mood swings from Mandy. She has such a sad history. As the hormones levels change in her body I have a feeling you will see the mood swings. Also since she was feral for those months she learned to rely on her instincts. She is probably well aware that your hubby is home, she hears him and smells him. Trust is not something she is capable of giving right now. The best I think we can hope for is that she continues to eat, drink, pee, poo and feed andy take care of the babies. Wow that is a full time job for her.

I really wish there was a switch we could just flip in her head.

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger She is probably well aware that your hubby is home, she hears him and smells him. Trust is not something she is capable of giving right now.
> I really wish there was a switch we could just flip in her head.
> 
> Val


Well, I got growled and lunged at again. I was changing her pee pad. It's a bit unnerving to not know when it's going to come. She is acting different. I hope she is not ill. I hope it is just hormonal. Stool was a little softer today, but not bad. 

I honestly do think it could be Mike being home. 

It's hard not to feel scared when a gsd you don't know growls like that at you.... and you are unprotected... and have your back turned. It makes me ask myself if I am taking chances I shouldn't be taking.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Snarling and lunging when your back is turned is classic fear behavior - they don't want to tackle you head on but they're terrified. I would try approaching her at oblique angles - just sidle up, do what you can do safely, and sidle out of range again. 

All the growling and lunging and posturing she's doing is a good thing in the sense that she's communicating her intentions and letting you know she's afraid. If she wanted to attack you she could and she's not, she's just trying to protect herself and her babies. I realize that's small comfort when a large and unfamiliar GSD is acting in a threatening manner but really it is more positive than if she were being quiet and then going for you or behaving in an otherwise more unpredictable manner. 

Definitely having a man home is probably ratcheting up her anxiety again. Hopefully she'll calm down and improve with him home the same way she did with you. BUT I think you're absolutely right - he shouldn't be down there and around her, for his safety and her's.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Our longterm foster Griffin was severely abused by a man and it took a long time for us to be able to trust him around my husband and a lot time for my husband to feel comfortable with him. They love each other now though. Maybe our husbands together for a support group.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Well, Mike is leaving Sunday to go back out of town to work. So, it will just be us girls now. 

I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts about Mandy actually doing me a favor by warning me of her fear. That relieves me somewhat that I won't just be blindly attacked without warning.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, I am glad that pupresq explained the fear thing. I have a tencency to forget to explain behaviors. She is warning you to stay out of her comfort zone. She is more afraid of you than you are of her. 

I think she was starting to loosed up and then she sensed another person in the house and she got concrened and retreated back into herself. Hopefully she will start learning to accept you. 

Her stool could be soft because she isn't use to really good food and that she is cleaning up after the pups. Just try to keep an eye on how things are going.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Well, I have fed her this am. Got a nose twitch and head lowering ("Don't come any closer"). I waited about 2 hours and then braved the laundry... she was only in my far peripheral vision and I never looked at her. I got out of there without incident. 

You know, now that I think about things I don't put it past Mike to have to had taken a little peak down there while I was gone yesterday. You know, when you tell someone not to do something... Plus he seems to embrace challenges. 

Melony donated some DAP spray to Mandy this week. I will read the directions, however, I am wondering if I sprayed some on my pants legs before going down there if that would calm her? I also put some rescue remedy in her food this AM. Fortunately I have an extra bottle of that. I use it on my dogs when we have mild t-storms.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, do you have an old worn T-shirt, wear it for a day then spray some of the comfortZone on it and leave it near her food. The DAP should start combining your smell with the DAP. One thing about the spray DAP is it needs about 10 mins to dry, other wise the dog's don't like it.

Men, it could be possible, they never listen...


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

How about Melatonin? It is a notural sleep aid. Not at all strong but calming. Rescue remidy does nothing for my boxer's irrational fear of storms. 5 mg of Melatonin helps her with the stress. She isn't dopped up but more able to control her emotions. Like a very mild xanax. 
I wonder if you could add one to her food? It is at all health food stores. Again does not dope them up but does seem to calm the nerves. I was told about it from a friend with a GSD. Her dog also has storm phbias. It works perfect for her dog but just helps mine cope.


----------



## selzer

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I am a little concerned about Calcium. If she is eating mostly chicken, broth, and rice, and not mostly the Canidae, she may be a little low, that is dangerous for her and the puppies. 

Have you given her any yougert or something that has calcium in it. If she does get ill, it will be a trip to get her to the vet, with or without the puppies. 

Good luck.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Yes, she is eating the dog food now. More of that than the rice and chicken. Using the broth to make the canidae more appealing. Tossing chicken to her as a peace offering. I have added cottage cheese to her meals once or twice two.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I wouldn't try Melatonin. Let's see if she settles back down next week when hubby is gone out of town again.


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I asked the vet and he said the melatonin would not effect the puppies. He has used it on rescue dogs with good results.


----------



## Betty

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I'll be darn. I took Melatonin for a while a few years back for insomia. It did give me very vivid dreams though.

sorry about going OT.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Melatonin can affect hormone levels. That is why I said I wouldn't try it. I tried it on my dog DeeDee for her thunderstorm problems, it didn't help. It might help for some dogs, but it just isn't any thing I would try right now, Chris can try what she wants, I was just stating my opinion.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I personally feel less is more when it comes to medication. I believe that for people and for dogs. There are too many side effects to manmade chemicals. The goal is to let Mandy go through this process as naturally as any dog would. Especially seeing as her evil former owner ran her off from her previous litter in June cause he didn't think she was taking care of them. I think they were less than a week old. Her fears are founded. 

She's hovering over them like a mother hen. I think she's being a **** good mom to these little ones. Not what I am used to in a whelping experience, but hey, I guess I am the one that has to alter myself to fit this situation. It's truly a learning experience for me. 

I am also not used to a dog growling at me in my own home. That is unnerving but I have to keep cool. I just hope and pray as the pups get older and she starts to naturally wean them, she'll allow me to handle them. I miss that part of having a litter, but more than that, the pups need to have positive experiences from people very early on. 

I was gone most of the day today. I had a busy day yesterday with many loads of laundry and so I was down there alot. Not so today. I just got home, did go in and change her potty paper, give her fresh food and water. She's doing well. The pups look well too, but I can't tell much since I am not allowed to look at them too hard. 

I appreciate everyones advice. What works for some, won't for others and that is life. The support you all have given me through my fear and insecurities is invaluable. Because of this board, I have many options and many thoughts that I wouldn't have gotten if I had not asked for your help.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I haven't tried melatonin or even any of the calming pheromones, so maybe I'm missing a whole range of treatments, but for me I prefer to use chemical solutions to chemical problems and behavioral solutions for behavioral problems. Say there was some sort of brain imbalance that is causing a behavioral issue, then I think using chemicals to restore the balance makes good sense. 

In Mandy's case, she is having a very normal behavioral reaction (fear aggression) to a behavioral situation (being abused). Her behavior makes pefect sense within the context of her life experience. 

Hopefully as she learns that life with Christi is a new kind of life experience, her behavior will adjust appropriately. 

What I think is very positive about Mandy, as I mentioned before, is that she's giving lots of behavioral cues about how she's feeling and when she's afraid. I would be much more concerned about a dog that seemed to lash out randomly or behaved erratically than one who has a history of of abuse and mistreatment and is being excessively protective of her pups. 

The big question long term is whether or not she is flexible enough to adjust her behavioral responses to fit her new life. And here's where I'm hoping her GSD smarts will help.


----------



## djpohn

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Quote: I just hope and pray as the pups get older and she starts to naturally wean them, she'll allow me to handle them. I miss that part of having a litter, but more than that, the pups need to have positive experiences from people very early on.


Hopefully this will happen soon, otherwise you basically have a litter of feral pups and they will be hard to place. Since the mother imprints them so much, her fear and temperment are making a less than perfect start for these pups.

Good luck, I hope she lets you near them soon.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

True, but I wouldn't worry yet. As long as you get to them by the time they're 3 weeks old or so, you should be okay. My hope is that once they start toddling around a little, they're going to want to come check you out and by then she'll have relaxed enough for you to handle them. If not, then hopefully she'll be at a point where she's willing to go outside to potty and you can handle them then. 

We get a lot of moms and litters at the shelters I work with that haven't been handled and if the babies are under 5 weeks, they usually do fine with some intensive handling. If you really can't handle mom or babies by the time they're 4-5 weeks and there's no way to get her away from them long enough to handle them, THEN I think pulling them altogether will probably be necessary. But hopefully that won't happen. It sounds like she wants to be friends but she's just so scared. 

I think the first step is habituation and you seem to be doing well with that if she's letting you come down and do laundry etc. From there it'll just be figuring out where her comfort zone is and then gradually shifting that boundary inward. 

I think you're doing an awesome job and it's wonderful that she finally has a safe place to be.


----------



## Betty

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Quote:I think you're doing an awesome job and it's wonderful that she finally has a safe place to be.


I second that. I've been following this thread and want to say thank you. I know it can't be easy.


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Are the pups still on the couch or are they now in the welping box?

I hope she relaxes as the pups get older. I totally see why she is worried. That old owner was such an idiot.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*



> Originally Posted By: pupresq What I think is very positive about Mandy, as I mentioned before, is that she's giving lots of behavioral cues about how she's feeling and when she's afraid. I would be much more concerned about a dog that seemed to lash out randomly or behaved erratically than one who has a history of of abuse and mistreatment and is being excessively protective of her pups.


I'll second this. This is what gives me hope for this girl that one day she will be secure enough that people can handle her. I doubt she’ll ever be a social butterfly, but the wallflowers have their charms too.







It would be a whole different story right now if she wasn't growling and giving Chris the evil eye to warn her to back off. Dogs that don't use the early warning systems they come equipped with are far more dangerous then the dogs that do.

I wouldn't worry about the puppies just yet either guys. Yeah, they are going to miss some early socialization but there is no alternative at this point in time. It's also far too soon to write them off as feral. Right now they need their mom more then they need to be handled. 

Your doing great Chris! Just keep at it- one day at a time.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Pups are still on the sofa. That worries me, but I can't do anything about that without probably pushing Mandy over the edge. From my glancing, there are still five and they are eating and growing. I know it has to be difficult for her to keep them all situated. I hope her selection of places to whelp had something to do with feeling safe. That is exactly where I sat all the time to give her treats and hang out with her. 

I was thinking about the litter and even though its thinking a few weeks ahead, I believe that if they are going to be socialized with people they will need to be separated from Mandy at about 4 weeks or so, depending on when she starts weaning them. I hope it doesn't come to that, but time will tell.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Chris, I know you said last week that she almost looked like she wanted to step outside. I would continue to try seeing if she wants to go outside, even if the first time is only for a few minutes. Don't let anyone mess with the pups while she is out the first time or two. As the pups grow I hope her instincts of wanting to get away from them once in a while will play in your favor.

I think you are just going to have to take things one step at at time, one day at a time.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Thanks. I have been putting a trail of chicken to the garage door. (They are side opening doors, not the noisy overhead door). She's been taking it when I leave. I think I will leave the door open for a few minutes with me not out there to see if she'll come on outside on her own. It opens securely into a small fenced in potty area. I think I am safe to assume that Mandy would not get so industrious as to climb or dig out. The main reason I didn't want to leave the door open is because I didn't want it to get drafty downstairs. It is heated. 

All of you help me think of things and I appreciate it. I know naturally she should start taking longer breaks from the pups. Hoping soon I can interact with just Mandy again and build on that. 

They are one week old today.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

Yea one week old. Wow Chris I bet that week has felt like a month. 

I would leave the door open for a little bit then close it again. Hopefully the weather will warm up and that will encourage her to go out for a few minutes also. But keep an eye on her, I wouldn't put it past her to try to dig out and then try moving her pups out with her. That is what a feral dog would do as soon as she felt they were old enough to move.


----------



## DSudd

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

I don't know anything about a dog having puppies and would not know where to begin. 

Chris I am in awe of everything you have done to help this poor girl. I am sure before long she will come to trust you and realize how much you care about her and she will repay you with unconditional love. I will keep both of you in my thought and prayers, that she will come to trust you soon so you can not only help her but also help her babies.

I also want to add that I am so amazed at how much help and advice you have gotten from other members of this board. 

The true love you have for this breed is so apparent just between the conversations going back.

Ok one last thing I am dying to see puppy pictures LOL


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

I could tell something was wrong when I went down the stairs and Mandy was growling before I even got to the bottom. She's salivating she is so nervous. 

To the best I can figure, a pup has fallen and is under the sofa. She has moved, yes moved, the sofa and torn the stuffing up completely where the coils can be seen. This only means more of the puppies will be falling down. I don't know what to do!!!! 

What do I do??? Here are the options that have crossed my mind. Call my shelter worker friend, bring her to my house with the catch pole and move Mandy and the pups to safety. I don't like that idea cause it will inflict trauma. OR, I could ace her food. No guarantee that that will knock her out or if I will be able to help her even if she is sedated. I only have about 3 25 mg tabs, I think. OR start putting her food in the whelping box (it is enclosed by a wooden play pen). Hope for the best, that she'll move them there on her own. OR Forget the puppies, let Mandy handle it.


----------



## Achielles UD

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

I have not been posting but I have been following. Bless you for everything you are doing.

Personally, what I would do is get the catch pole, if that is what it is going to take, and remove Mandy from the sofa area. Get the pups out and into the whelping box. Then take the sofa out of there so she can't do it again. Yes, there will be a bit of trauma because of the catch pole, but hopefully after everyone is safe you can start over and build a little trust again. Have the friend catch her, not you. I think this is the safest and fastest way to help the fallen puppy.

I would hate to drug her and I think the food in the whelping box wouldn't get her moved soon enough. Letting Mandy handle it really isn't an option as evidenced by the shredded sofa. She has tried and it didn't work.

Good luck! I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you and the puppies!


----------



## towtrip

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

I agree with Jessi. I don't trust ace ... it can make some dogs more nervous/aggressive, plus you will end up with ace in the milk and drugging the pups.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

Oh crap! I'd have to say call the friend with the catch pole. Clearly she's already freaked out and it would be better to do it all at once. Do a fast job of getting the couch out and anything else that may cause a problem with her and the puppies over the next few weeks.


----------



## BlackGSD

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

I agree with the others. Hopefully your friend is a GOOD friend. Because I would ask her to be the one to catch Mandy. IMO, it would be even better if you weren't in the room so she doesn't associate any of that with you. Though it seems to me that it may be better if YOU are the one to handle the pups since even though she isn't exatly thrilled with you at this time, she ODES know your scent. Obviously she is going to be VERY traumatized by this, but hopefully not enough to abandon of worse yet hurt the pups afterwards.

Keep in mind though that I have NO experience with these types of cases though. This is what sounds best to ME. But someone with experience in this type of situation may know differently. 

Good luck to you.


----------



## djpohn

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

I would either have your friend come or try to get her outside (probably not an option) so you can safely move the pups. I would suggest that you move them into a more secure, small area that they can escape from (or get under anything). they are going to be more mobile now so they will wander if they have a big room to be in. You might want to get a couple x-pens and put them around the whelping box and rig a small barricade that the mom can safely jump over (and not hurt the pups).

Also if she is still freaked out by people you might want to wear gloves to handle the pups - just a thought


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

Oh no!!!

Been reading this but had not posted. Hope the pup is okay!


----------



## Achielles UD

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

It has been several hours... I am hoping things went ok?
*anxiously biting my fingernails to hear how it went*


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

Oh holy you know what. I hope you opted for your friend to use the catch pole on Mandy and move the pups and her into the whelping box. 

I will check back in a while, fingers crosssed.


----------



## Brightelf

*Re: NEW PROBLEM, PLEASE HELP!*

Hoping someone with a catchpole is coming soon. Please update when you can! Sending you good thoughts during this crisis.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I went to the Chilton Co Humane Society (where I volunteer) and told them I needed them badly. I drove the shelter manager, Tabitha, to my house. She had the catch pole. It was just me and her. 

We planned it out where I was out of sight, but able to retrieve the pups once Tabi got Mandy. Actually, Mandy got off the sofa when Tabi started advancing with the catch pole and began retreating, even though she was growling and barking. When Tabi saw that she was backing down, we opted to just gently corner Mandy without using the catch pole. Tabitha did that with a tall x pen that I had handy. She very gently, talking very softly to Mandy backed her away where I could get the babies out.

By this time, four of them were on the ground and only one on the sofa nursing. One of the pups inside the sofa was pretty tangled up in the fabric thread from Mandy trying to get them out. It was a good save. Sorry to say, I didn't count boys and girls, but they were all heavy, lively and warm. YEAH!

Soon as the pups were in the whelping box, Tabi guided Mandy in their direction with the x-pen. Mandy went right to them and began nursing them. Then we used the xpen to separate her from the main area of the downstairs. There is a sheet up so she feels hidden behind it. I gave her some tasty treats. No more growling. 

Then we moved the sofa out of the basement so there is no way they'll wind up there again. I think it was done pretty effectively with Tabi looking like the bad guy. And my scent got on the pups so maybe that will help things. 

I feel so relieved that we didn't have to use the catchpole or drugs and now she and the puppies are safe. And Mandy is in an area where I can still work with her, but not make her feel threatened. I hope we turn a corner after this episode.


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

whew.........I've been quietly following this, this is an awesome story.....thank you for sharing your experience. I am sooooo glad pups are okay.


----------



## kshort

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

OMG - I've checked this thread at least 20 times since your last post, even though I get an email notification because it's one of my Watched Topics.

Christi - you guys did a fabulous job. I don't think there is any way you could have done it better. Mandy is safe, babies are safe, you and Tabi are safe. I know you're tremendously relieved to have the babies off the couch, so maybe you'll be able to relax a little knowing that this family is safer now. Mandy sounds like a wonderful momma and I'm hoping that soon the nervousness will subside. I keep going back to MomtoBeauandRiley's posts about Alma, and the behavior is almost identical. The one thing Alma would do though is go outside to potty, so that gave MTBAR a chance to check the puppies. But eventually all was well and Alma let her interact with the puppies. I'm so hoping the same thing happens for you. After being chased away from her other babies by that idiot owner, I think her instincts have just kicked in and there's no way anyone is going to take these babies away from her. She just doesn't get it yet that you're only there to help.

Whew, what a relief. Keep up the great work and we'll anxiously look for updates!


----------



## RubyTuesday

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Wonderful! Hopefully she will see you as the hero who rescued & gave back her puppies.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Chris, this may just be a blessing in disquise. Mandy saw that you weren't going to hurt her or separate her from her babies. I think she will see this as a safer place for her and her babies, no more falling off the couch or sliding down into the couch. Glad that you didn't have to use the catch pole and that all she needed was to be herded with the Xpen.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

That went very well! Glad to hear you got some good help and were able to get the job done. 

Puppies are ok!!!


----------



## Achielles UD

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I am relieved to hear things went so well









Keep posting! I don't reply often, but I sure to enjoy reading


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Outstanding news!!!!

Do keep us posted on this family! Thanks for taking Mandy on, she needed an advocate like you.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

We have a relaxed momma this AM. Thanks everyone!!!


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

YEAH!!!! I would love to see some pics as soon as you feel it is okay for momma.


----------



## Fee

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

So glad to hear it!!! Have no advice to offer on a dog like this but this sure makes for a great read!! Thank you for all you are doing and for sharing her story!! Hugs to mom and pups


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I read most of this at work and could not see the picture you posted of her. I came home and made it a point to find it so I could see this special girl.

She is lovely and has gorgeous eyes. What a dear.


----------



## BlackGSD

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

So how many are there total? What colors are they? (I know you said you didn't look to see if they were males or females.)

Like some of the other folks, I haven't posted on this thread except for once the other day, but I enjoy reading.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

There are five. One is tan, mostly. The others are predominently black. Some have dark chesnut colored markings on them. All of them seem to have white feet. Some have white chests. I hope to snap a picture soon when Mandy is feeling more secure.


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Yeah Mandy!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I saw one of the babys lifting his/her head today. They all appear very healthy. Mandy is eating well. I have been home the past 2 days. I have opened the garage doors for her to get some fresh air and sunlight during the day, closing them at night. Today, she pottied outside.


----------



## Castlemaid

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Woohoo for Chris and Mandy!!! Keep us updated, it just gets better and better! 

This whole thread is very touching. Mandy was due for some good things to come into her life, glad it was you!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I am feeling frustrated and beginning to wonder if Mandy is ever going to trust me again. Her charge at me this AM was her bravest yet. I am showing no fear at this point, either. This really bothers me alot. Just needed to verbalize that to someone.


----------



## DianaM

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Chris, hang in there! Just in case though, I'd suggest keeping a stout walking stick with you; if she decides to make real on her threat, you need to keep yourself safe. You have amazing patience and I'm sure you'll persevere!


----------



## chjhu

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

After having been through this with Alma, I certainly feel your pain.
If you can put her into a space with two doors, you might be able to shut her out - however Alma did her best to demolish what was between her and the puppies in this situation.
It sounds like your best option would be to separate mom and puppies as soon as the babies can be weaned and keep them in separate foster homes. 
You may need some Ace for the mom during the first few days as I am sure she'll be very upset when the puppies disappear. It is amazing how what a powerful driving force hormones are.
Mom may end up being a different dog once the puppies are gone.

Sending positive thoughts and encouragement your way.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Chris if you have some extra time on your hands. Go sit at a distance that she isn't reacting to you being there and have a big pile of chicken. Toss some chicken over by her, keep your eyes down and talk softly or hum. If she gets the chicken then throw some a little closer to you.

Keep up the good work.

Val


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

This poor girl sure has a lot of baggage. I applaud your continued patience with her.


----------



## Betty

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*



> Originally Posted By: KathyWThis poor girl sure has a lot of baggage. I applaud your continued patience with her.


What Kathy said!


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I've been following this amazing story although I haven't posted until now. Kudos to you for taking on this difficult situation!

Just a word about her behavior. Even at the best of times, unwanted behaviors take awhile to be extinguished. And before the behavior finally fades away, there's almost always an escalation of the behavior. So while you're working through this girl's problems, keep in mind that you are going to see times when she seems to backtrack in her trust level - but that this is completely normal and doesn't mean that you're not making progress. I know it must be terribly frustrating to have her act more relaxed one day and then offer aggressive behavior the next, but in a behavioral context it's pretty normal. 

I have no doubt that she is gradually learning that you are the one from whom all good things come, and that if she hadn't had the pups to protect you would have been much farther along. I admire your patience, persistence and dedication.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## chjhu

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Any news today?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Well, maybe today is a little bit better. Its just hard to read her. She was quite hungry when I went to see her. When I went to change her potty paper and feed her, she growled and charged me. She was not so threatened that she wouldn't eat the chicken I tossed to her. 

It helps that she has her own area. She, the puppies and the whelping box are in a homemade puppy pen. I have used this several times and it is just invaluable for litters. It's about 3.5 feet high, 6 foot wide and 12 foot long. It is made of a wood frame and covered around with small gauge heavy wire. Top and bottom are open. It has a convenient easy latching gate. I'll post a picture of it with a previous foster in it. 

Mandy charges the gate of the puppy pen, I attempt to slowly close it, closing her inside. I change potty paper, put down fresh food and water. I toss her some chicken as I am doing this. All this time I am talking softly to her and using slow movements to get the work done. At this time she has gone back to the litter to hover over them. It gets tricky again when I go to leave because I reach for the gate to unlatch it so Mandy can come out to eat/drink and do business. She charges me a second time when I do this. She stares directly at me, baring teeth and growling. Her hair is very bristled when she does this. I guess this is what frightens me most and I do my best to not show my emotions. 

Today, I slowed down my motions more. I tried to use calming signals before I unlatched the gate. I turned my head, didn't make eye contact. Tossed her a bit of chicken. I didn't back down. I soothingly talked to her and told her I wouldn't hurt her. I used the 'no' word, firmly but softly. I was able to unlatch the gate and back out safely with less fuss than usual. And less fear on my part.

Mandy nosed the gate open after I got out of sight and came out to eat. When she realized I was still present, just not in her space, she dove back in to the litter. As long as she doesn't charge me past the gate of the puppy pen, I think I'll be ok. 

The poster who suggested carrying a walking cane with me is wise, but I think Mandy is real sensitive to objects that she doesn't recognize. I believe a walking cane would provoke her more. I have things handy within reach, but I just don't want her to feel I am coming at her armed. 

Going to buy more chicken today. (Thanks Melony). It sure helps to have the encouragement from the board. 

Off topic. My mom and dad suddenly died in 2007. Mom in April, Dad in August. They were my biggest supporters (and worriers). I really do miss them and I thank you all for being here when I need the support. Some days are harder than others and today is a difficult day.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

This is the puppy pen. 










This is the whelping box. 










Pictures are from a momma coonhound I fostered in 2005. Since this picture was taken, I have turned the puppy pen to where the gated opening faces the outside door and fenced in potty area.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Just wanted to send you some more support Chris. Hang in there and keep at it. The environment changed for Mandy and I'll bet that's the major reason why she's stepping up her threats. I don't have any advice other then what the other poster suggested about moving the puppies to a different foster home when they are old enough.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I haven't posted on this thread for a while. I just wanted to say that I think you're doing a great job and I hope that Mandy calms down soon. I know this must be very frustrating and worrisome for you.


----------



## jfisher

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Just wanted to post my support and best wishes after reading this whole thread. Bless you for taking on Mandy in this very difficult situation. When you see each one of those pups going to their loving new homes that they wouldn't have gotten without your help, it will all be worth it! Hugs to you and Mandy from me and Talon! I feel so sorry for her and after all she's been through it's no wonder that she doesn't trust anyone but I hope that your continued love for her soon convinces her that you are the first good person in her life.

-Jackie


----------



## towtrip

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*



> Quote: It sounds like your best option would be to separate mom and puppies as soon as the babies can be weaned and keep them in separate foster homes.


In some states this is illegal. You need to check your laws before you do this.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Today has been the best day Mandy and I have had since the puppy in the couch incident. A little growling, but no charging me. I moved a chair close to her and the whelping box (but in a safe place for me behind the x pen) and sat with her for about 20 minutes at a time. She was intimidated at first but calmed down and went on to care for the pups. I tossed her chicken periodically.

I also tossed a bit of chicken out making a trail to where I was sitting behind the x pen. She had to leave the whelping box to get the chicken. She actually did it with me sitting right there. She was probably six inches from me - the closest she has been to me in 2 weeks. Maybe, just maybe soon she can be eating out of my hand again. I feel somewhat encouraged.


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

You should, You have been an angel to Mandy! She knows it deep down I have been reading your story and it is really sweet. You have compassion, and it for sure rubs off on Mandy in subtle ways that help her grow in her trust to you...Thank you for giving her a secure place to raise her family.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Yea Chris, that is great progress....... Maybe time will heal her emotional wounds.


----------



## BlackGSD

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*



> Originally Posted By: Susan F
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: It sounds like your best option would be to separate mom and puppies as soon as the babies can be weaned and keep them in separate foster homes.
> 
> 
> 
> In some states this is illegal. You need to check your laws before you do this.
Click to expand...

I don't believe anyone is recommending "getting rid" of the puppies to seperate homes at an early age, but rather sending the whole litter to another home so they can get the human interaction they NEED and can NOT get with the dam present. They NEED to get away from the dam as soon as possible in order to grow up to be normal dogs.
Chances are, if this litter is left with the dam until they are 8 weeks old, they will in effect be "feral" just like the dam.


----------



## chjhu

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I agree. This is a special circumstance where even the caretaker is in danger from the overprotective mom and, if it came to legal considerations, this could be explained and would be taken into account. The spirit of that law is preventing the selling of very young puppies by bad breeders. Separating the litter from the mom to be able to socialize them better before placing them into forever homes in this case is in the best interest of both mom and pups.


----------



## shepherdbydesign

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I agree 100% otherwise they could be just like mom


----------



## towtrip

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

By taking the puppies away early, you could also be reinforcing the mom's fear and distrust of humans. Look at her history ... people took away her last puppies, too. 

The puppies are getting some human interaction because Chris is in there daily, even if it isn't as much as one would normally recommend. Once they start becoming mobile, she may be able to interact even more. 

Plus, depending on your state, it's still illegal to separate puppies from the mother before they're 8 weeks of age. Maybe the state of mind of the mom would be taken into account in some states, but not in all. In Missouri, it's very black-and-white. Chris needs to check the laws of her state before she decides when to separate mom and pups.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Well, given that this is AL (deep south) where humane laws are YEARS behind other states, I very much doubt this law is on the books. Since Chris is friends with the local HS and at least one member of that HS has been out and seen the trouble that Mandy is having, I don't think there would be a problem here. Not unless someone wanted to make an issue of it.

I'm just glad that everyone in this situation is safe at the moment and there is still time to play it by ear. Sending more support your way Chris. Let me know if you run out of chicken and I'll see about sending some more your way.


----------



## chjhu

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Well, I guess if Chris decides to separate the pups she can do it as long as she does not post it on this board.


----------



## shepherdbydesign

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

I don't understand why it is so wrong to seperate pups from mom as long as they are not sold before they are 8 weeks old. IMO seperating the pups from mom would be better than leaving them together and taking a chance that they will have issues like their mom. At 4 weeks of age we had to seperate a litter from their mom due to stress issues and they were all left together until the 8 weeks of age. Its a law here that a pup isn't sold to a customer before they are 8 weeks old, not a law to stop a breeder to seperate pups from mom, it would only be better for the pups temperment to be socialized without having fear that mom may attack others due to socialization.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

We are taking this just a step at a time. 

I will double check local laws if it comes to this. 

Separating pups from mom is not what I want to do. I do have a rescue gsd female here named Merci that was a brood bitch at one time - now spayed. She helps all new puppies I rescue by mothering them and teaching them some etiquette. She even mothers kittens but it's been over a year since I could foster kittens. 

And nobody gets adopted until they get altered. My vet will do them early depending on their weight. Early speuters are probably a whole different topic. 

I saw two pups playing with each other today. Eyes are open. I have the radio on downstairs so they will be hearing a human voice. Mandy seems to prefer classical music, which is early in the experimental stage but anything is worth a try.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Another thought Chris would be to change the Comfort Zone plugin. I think those are good for a month and I bet it's getting close to running out.


----------



## Papanapa

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

You are an inspiration to us all! The time and effort you are putting into Mandy and her babies is wonderful. As far as separating the pups from mom goes: You are the only one who knows the situation first hand and will be informed enough to make a decision in the best interest of mom and pups. You sound like a very loving and nurturing person and I am confident that you will make the best decision all around, whatever that may be. For now, GOOD JOB!! and a pat on the back!! 

This whole situation reminds me of a saying I just heard, 

" Believe in Angels, and then return the favor "


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Today has been good. Mandy did charge me when I changed potty paper, but it was only a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10. Very short lived. I didn't change potty paper yesterday because she is going outside a good part of the time. 

My husband comes home from out of town tomorrow night. Hoping we don't revert. 

Yep, Melony, it is time to change that DAP plug in. Thanks.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: CRISIS OVER (whew!)*

Keep making progress Mandy girl!!!!!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Puppy deworming question*

Pups will be 3 weeks old Monday. Normally I would have given the pups strongid dewormer at 2/4/6 , etc weeks of age. Seeing as I can't do that, could I put it in Mandy's food? Would it be passed to the pups effectively that way? I got one dose of Panacur into Mandy the day before she delivered. She had a deworming at the vet about 6 weeks ago.

Also, she got into some plastic I had lying around the basement. It's no where near the pups and they are not coming out of the whelping box yet. So, I am not worried about it being a choking harzard just yet. It will need to be moved soon, though.

I don't know what she was doing. A couple of thoughts I had was 
1. there was a stray bite of chicken somewhere and she was trying to find it. 
2. She is getting back to somewhat of a baseline. During the two weeks before pups came, she has a mischevious streak getting into things or
3. She's looking for a new hiding place for the babies. 

Thoughts anyone?


----------



## selzer

*Re: Puppy deworming question*

You have an x-pen down there, Could you put a crate inside there and place her dinner inside the crate and trap her so that you can worm the puppies. She may bark her head off and carry on, but she will be right there to be certain that you will not hurt them. 

Or, if someone else is there, can you trap her outside briefly while she potties until your helper worms the puppies. 

I do not believe that this will pass through the mother's milk and effectively worm the puppies. 

I have not dealt with such a skared animal with pups, so I am not sure what would cause the least bit of harm. I generally begin worming at four weeks. At this point the bitch has already started the weaning process. It is possible that she will be les concerned about you once she starts weaning.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Puppy deworming question*

Thank you. I may try to wait another week to attempt anything that would traumatize her and hope that her demeanor will calm down. I have never dealt with a dog this fearful either. Any attempt to contain her would be easier with two people, that is for sure. She's very smart and very quick. If she even thinks I am moving in the direction of her puppies, she hops in with them and hovers over them like a mother hen. 

She has made a little progress, but not alot, oover the past few days. I sit downstairs with her for half hours at a time. Tossing chicken bits. I have been close to her but behind the xpen for safety. Yesterday I stepped it up a notch. I sat outside in her fenced in area (no protection around me) and tossed chicken just inside the door and outside around me. She came out of the whelping box to get it twice. As soon as she realized I was sitting there, she hurried back to the babies. I want to graduate to her taking the chicken from my hand again. If she and I could spend some time building trust outside without her having to fear the babies are in danger maybe we can move to another level of trust. 

Another weird thing, she prefers my hair back in a ponytail. When it's down, she acts as if I am a stranger.


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: Puppy deworming question*

I have been following along and think this is absolutely wonderful what you are doing. I cannot immagine how frightened she must be.



> Originally Posted By: ChristiAnother weird thing, she prefers my hair back in a ponytail. When it's down, she acts as if I am a stranger.


I dont think it is that weird at all, she obviously hasnt been socialized and probably doesnt know that humans can change their skin and dont always look the same. Same as some dogs freak if you have on a hat, take it off and they are fine... When your outside appearance changes she expects a different person.


----------



## Papanapa

*Re: Puppy deworming question*

The socialization process is amazing. I know with Lucy I had some minor problems with people of color. I didn't realize that she had never seen a black person before we went to training classes. She acted quite startled. (Not really fearful, just cautious) I guess that just shows how dogs must be in all different situation and around all kinds of different people to be properly socialized. Maybe try taking your hair down from the pony AFTER you have been feeding the chicken for a while. Just to show her it's still you?
Good luck with all of this. I check this post regularly for updates. I think you are wonderful!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*



> Originally Posted By: ShellyG Maybe try taking your hair down from the pony AFTER you have been feeding the chicken for a while. Just to show her it's still you?


That is smart. Thanks! 

Over the past couple days, I have heard Mandy growling at the pups. I imagine their little nails are getting sharp and they are probably getting teeth now. I normally would have introduced the pups to mush today. She is still nursing them and protecting them, but I wonder if her behavior of shifting things around in her area is a first attempt at getting away from them. I have a knee high board that I use to give a momma dogs space when it comes this time. I may try to get in there and set that up and then put a bed for Mandy in the 'away from the puppy' space I make for her. Start tossing the chicken in their some. She should be able to figure it out. Getting in there is the challenge though.


----------



## chjhu

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*

Can you put the food bowl with the mush in the puppy section?
The puppies will find it for sure. Alma's babies ate the mush like crazy.
The extra food will do the mom and pups good.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*

Keep hoping Mandy will settle back into her pre-puppy level and let you in more.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*

PROGRESS this am! Mandy left her puppies for about 5 minutes while I sat downstairs. She ate an entire meal and briefly went outside to check on the weather. NO GROWLING! Rewarded with her favorite. Granted I was sitting on the other side of the xpen where I usually sit. I was still and quiet and didn't really even look in her direction. But it is a first. 
Puppies are darling from what I can tell just looking at them. I am talking to them so hopefully that will help Mandy and them. And Mandy learned how to catch chicken in her mouth. Will come in handy when the puppers start wanting to give it a taste. I just pray I get to feed them soon. It will help Mandy so much to not be drained. They are getting big. 

I want to get pictures, but I don't want to upset Mandy since we are moving in a better direction. You don't know how much I am obsessed with seeing this situation work out. I can hardly sleep at night for thinking how I can make it happen.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*

Chris, that is great news. It sounds like maybe Mandy is getting ready to spend a little time away from the pups.

You are doing a great job and Mandy will get back to herself once the pups are ready to be weaned and can be moved to a new foster home. 

What you and Mandy went through wasn't an easy deal. Mandy is starting to relax again, the pups appear to be healthy you didn't lose any of them, Mandy was a really good mom and you were just the right amount of help and support for her. Good job all the way around ladies.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*































YES!!!!!!


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*

Great news! You are a real trooper and so is Mandy! She knows you're there because she can smell you, of course. Any luck getting food into the puppies?


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*



> Quote: And Mandy learned how to catch chicken in her mouth.


That's wonderful news on a couple different levels. 








To catch food when it's thrown she has to really watch you and participate in an interaction - it's SO much further along than just picking up food you put down with her. It also means she's starting to learn a positive association for hand motions and that good things happen when you wave your hands. This will be really useful when you're able to work with her again and are working on teaching her that flailing arms don't mean beatings. We did this with Grace learning that waving arms meant throwing the ball not being struck. The new positive association helped ENORMOUSLY.


----------



## Papanapa

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*

The pups are probably starting to irritate her. I can't even imagine being cooped up with my kids for that long...LOL Pretty soon she may be begging you to be her friend just to get some alone time.
Keep us posted and Good Luck


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*

I just thought of one more plus about her catching the chicken....I think it is demonstrating trust, she isnt stopping and sniffing it to check it out first....she believes you are sending her something good and trusts that it will be.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow Any luck getting food into the puppies?


That is what is bothering me right now. They need to eat out of a shallow pan and need to have a shallow bowl of water available once I start feeding them. I just don't know how to get that to them yet. I need for Mandy to get out of the puppy pen while I go in there. If I advance toward her while she is in the puppy pen with them, she'll feel cornered. 

I lay in bed at night thinking of how to accomplish this and I just can't figure out a safe way that won't traumatize Mandy further. I hope that she'll continue wanting to distance herself from them each day.


----------



## selzer

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*

I use a bottle hung on an x-pen for water. I find that a shallow bowl becomes foul immediately when the pups walk in it and play in it and spill it. 

In order to ensure fresh water all the time I use the lexit bottles, sometimes two or three of them. They work great and the pups seem to do fine with them.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy growling at pups*



> Originally Posted By: selzerI use a bottle hung on an x-pen for water. I find that a shallow bowl becomes foul immediately when the pups walk in it and play in it and spill it.
> 
> In order to ensure fresh water all the time I use the lexit bottles,


Great Idea!! Thanks! You are so right, the pan of water is a mess.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 29th progress report*

Still making slow progress. This AM I moved my 'station' inside 'her area', just across from the puppy pen and just inside the xpen where I was sitting just outside the xpen. After a short bout of initial growling, I was able to move about outside the xpen to pooper scoop, refresh food and water bowls. Mandy did not come out of the puppy pen with me sitting inside 'her area' but she didn't act aggressively either. 

I got my water bottle (lixit) that was suggested. Now just to figure out how to put it in there where the pups can reach it. The outgoing puppy got some chicken bits that missed Mandy and ate it. It's not weaning perse, but when tossing chicken to her, I am starting to break off some tinier bites for them too. I think I need to back off the chicken with Mandy. Had some soft poo this am. Next meal I'll mix some panacur in with her meal. 

The most encouraging.... I bought some little toys for the puppies. Mandy promptly claimed them. Didn't tear them up, but moved outside of the whelping box. She tried to bury two of them. Guess she has not ever had a toy before. She's still playing with whatever stray objects she finds downstairs. I pick them up as she finds them so she's actually helping me puppy proof. 

I know they are almost 4 weeks old, but I believe I'll have my hands on those babies soon. I am hoping for the best.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: March 29th progress report*

Great news! I was really hoping that her protective behavior would downgrade as the pups got older and the hormones leveled out. I'm so glad that this is her last litter of puppies and she'll have the chance to be someone's beloved house dog. Keep working at it Chris. I'm cheering for you!


----------



## Castlemaid

*Re: March 29th progress report*

It just makes my day to read about Mandy's progress. 

Chris, you are awesome!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: March 29th progress report*

Yea for Chris, Mandy and the puppies. That is all good news. Poor girl probably didn't have any toys in her life. I see a nice home for her down the line with someone.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

I had a tin pie plate. I put some long ribbon through some small cuts in the edges and lowered it in to the pups. They dove in! Mandy dove out! She is quite upset with me but I think she is more fearful than aggressive at this point. Then I dropped the ding dang ribbon and had to retrieve my pie plate with a coat hanger. I am still not brave enough to go marching in there with the pups bypassing the growling mom, but I think as with the other adventures, Mandy will see I am trying to help her and won't hurt them. I sat with her til she calmed down and stopped giving me the evil eye. I am going to set up their water bottle next time I go down. May have to lower in the pan of water a couple times to start. 

Next on the agenda is changing that nasty bedding. I will have to be inside the puppy pen to do that so I'll have to go around Mandy. I will get my hands on each baby for as long as Mandy will allow. May wait another day or two before going that route. *Someone said let Mandy see me put one back? Should I do that? Or will my scent on them be enough?* She'll more than likely be where she can see me handling them through the fencing of the puppy pen. She'll just be locked out.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

I GOT IN!! I held the babies. We have four boys and one girl. Mandy was in an airline kennel I had downstairs. I guess a chill out place from motherhood. She seemed to be hiding in there with her head to the back of the kennel. I took it real slow, but made it in the puppy pen before she turned to come out of the crate. I closed the puppy pen door. She was oh so not happy!!! She got really frantic and I wondered if I'd make it out of there for minute or two. 

The bedding was completely soaked and wet. Probably why Mandy was not comfortable laying there. I knew it was nasty and had to be wet but as much as I wanted to change it, I don't think I could have until today. I may not get to change it for a few days now. 

The boy puppies were like puddy in my hand. The girl pup yelped and that got Mandy worked up. So I took an extra second or two with her after I changed the bedding. Mandy was looking for a way in so I started looking for my way out. 

She will have to calm down before I do anything else with them, but hopefully once she settles she be ok again. Hope I didn't push things today, but I saw an opportunity and grabbed it. I probably should have put newspaper down instead of blankets and sheets but I used what I had readily available.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

Wow Christi, that's huge! You are doing so great with Mandy and the pups. I hope she will take the fact that everyone is ok as a sign that you are not a threat to her and them. 

I wonder if you could get a raw meaty bone and trade her for time with the pups?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

At long last, puppy pictures. 




























As you can see, the bedding was gross. The last picture is after all is said and done and Mandy is not happy with me. But she is back with her brood and no one is missing. So maybe next time will be easier. Gosh, I hope!


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

The puppies are so cute! And they look really plump and healthy!


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

Congrats on handling the babies and changing the bedding. The pups are adorable, sable one is soo cute! Mandy is a great momma, and I give you so much credit for all you are doing for this family! Thank you for sharing the pic's!


----------



## kshort

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

Wow Chris, that is HUGE! You have been incredible with Mandy and these babies. You must have the patience of a saint! Mandy's babies are absolutely adorable. I'm hoping every day gets a little easier. If you go back and read this thread from the beginning, I think you'll realize how much progress you've made with her. You have done such a great job with this family!


----------



## dogs_dolls

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

just want to add my thoughts that you are an amazing person! You are in my prayers!


----------



## Papanapa

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

That is fantastic! I am so glad that you got in to the puppies. This is an amazing story and you are a really great person for doing all of this. Keep sending us pictures and updates when you get time. I have been following this from the beginning and you are really making great progress with Mandy.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

What a pretty family!









It’s been a long road and I’m glad to see it’s getting easier.


----------



## djpohn

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

Get some shavings they will help keep the area cleaner than newspaper. They may even learn to potty in one side and then you can reach over with a pooper scooper and pull out the dirty shavings.

Glad she finally let you handle the pups. I think you will see her behavior change now that you are more confident with her. Just keep asserting your self more each day and you will probably see her defer to you more.good luck!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

GS Mom, beat me to the punch I was going to suggest shavings. A friend had a mixed opps litter and used shavings, the pups caught on to going potty in the shavings.

You are doing such a good job with Mandy and the pups. You are not pushing the issue so much that she feels threated. Keep up the good work. That Sable is a good sized pup, they all look nice, the Sable just sticks out.


----------



## Helly

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

I just read this entire thread...what an amazing story....the pups are beautiful and so is Momma....can't wait for more updates.


----------



## katieliz

*Re: Puppies ate 1st mush meal! March 30th*

christi, your character, courage, and compassion are breathtaking. many, many, many blessings to you and this little family.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger You are not pushing the issue so much that she feels threated.


Val, I think I did just that. Unintentionally, of course. Well, Mandy is still very disturbed today. I tried to feed the babies mush and she barked and growled so much they just sort of huddled together as if they were afraid. This is the first time I have noticed her behavior impacting them this way. It's time to separate them, I think. Would it be better to take them all from her at once? Or should I take three and leave two for a couple days longer so as to minimize the trauma. 

They did not get a mush meal today because of Mandy's behavior. I plan to move them Wed or Thursday. I'll have an empty run outside and will put my sweet Merci girl with the pups to baby sit when I am not out there with them. They need to see how normal gsds act. 

My heart can't give up on Mandy yet. I hope that when the maternity hormones subside I'll be left with just a fearful foster, not a unpredictable dog like she is now. I can continue working with her like I did before the pups came. But I can't do that with the puppies in her presence. I'll have to close the door to the garage cause I can't risk her escaping and going feral again. It's been a tough day today.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

Sorry to hear this, Christi. Who knows what's going through her mind. Her pups were taken from her who knows how many times in the past so I guess she's lumping you into the category of evil humans.









Will you move the puppies upstairs, then? Would it be better for someone else to take the pups? 

I just wonder if she'll be trying to get to them if they're somewhere else in the house. I have never done anything like this before so I'm just thinking about what her behavior might be. I just remember reading that other post where the mom gsd was trying to bust the door down to get to the pups.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

Will you move the puppies upstairs, then? Would it be better for someone else to take the pups? I just wonder if she'll be trying to get to them if they're somewhere else in the house.


Well, I don't think any of our other foster homes can take the pups. They all work full time jobs and technically, I'd have the most time to socialize them. I am thinking that locking Mandy inside and only open the door to the fence if I am down there with her to go potty will be enough to deter her from looking for them. That is why I wonder if leaving her two would be kinder on her. I have moved so slowly all along with this to give her time to adjust. Some of it has worked, too. 

I think if the puppies are in the kennel run outside, it will be less likely for her to hear/smell them than if they were directly above her in the house. It is on the other side of the house, where my fenced in play area is. It's going to be hard on us anyway I do this, I think. But it's hard now, too. I don't want to think Mandy is a lost cause. But I think if I don't separate the puppies from her fearfulness of humans I will have five more problem shepherds. When I saw them all huddled together while she barked and growled her head off tonight, I saw what could potentially be their future. I hope I can make it different for them.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

I have not moved them yet. Storms are supposed to move through tonight and tomorrow. 

A brave little soul marched out to meet me today though. I didn't interact with him other than speaking to him because of the position I was physically in. I didn't want to provoke Mandy.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

Which of the brave little soles marched out to me you. That is a good sign for a puppy. I am sure that Mandy might have been a bit stressed over the situation.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

I believe it was the little girl who yelped so when I held her. She squatted to tt OUTSIDE the whelping box! Smart cookie!


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

You must go to bed exhausted each night.

I keep you all in my prayers each night.


----------



## katieliz

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

i too think of you every day and wish you and this little family all good things...what a 'labor of love' you have undertaken, bless your heart. 

take good care...


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

Well at least one of the puppies likes you!







I am surprised they are not running all over the place now. They must be getting very big and rowdy. Have you been able to feed them more?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

I have not been able to feed them again. I tried on Monday and Mandy hit the roof. She has just now started calming down a bit since my last attempt. I am saving a ham bone for her on the day I remove the babes as a trade off. I think Mandy's fears have really kept them in the box. Ordinarily, a nearly 5 week old pup couldn't be contained. We're going to have some catching up to do.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

What is your plan for getting in there again? 

I know you are worried about her fear imprinting onto the pups. Will they be ok outside though? Will that give them enough socialization with people?


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

Chris, do any of the people in your group have a really nice stable female who might enjoy playing Auntie to these pups for a few weeks. I think if you could find a calm female who would enjoy the pups that, that could be a big help to the puppies.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

My plan for getting inside to retrieve the pups is to hopefully reinact the last time. To just gradually make the advance til Mandy runs out of the puppy pen and hopfully outside. Then I'll shut the garage door, get the puppies, take them upstairs and then go back downstairs and let Mandy in, then shut the garage door so she can't get out to try to find the pups. Then give her the ham bone. Gosh that sounds so cruel and I hate the thoughts of doing this. 

They are going to get alot more interaction with people outside than they are with Mandy. Upstairs in the house will drive her nuts cause she'll be able to hear them and smell them. I need for her to settle down so I can start working with her again. 

There will be green grass for them to play in (which they have never seen). They'll get to see birds and sunshine. They'll get exposure to normal dogs and cats. And they'll get to eat regularly. There will be a lot of plusses with the move. They will each get alot of time and attention from me.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerChris, do any of the people in your group have a really nice stable female who might enjoy playing Auntie to these pups for a few weeks. I think if you could find a calm female who would enjoy the pups that, that could be a big help to the puppies.


Yes, I have my girl Merci. She came here 2 years ago from a shelter pg and gave birth. She is my one foster failure. She's big yet gentle and has eased many new kittens and puppies as they came here to foster. She has a mothers heart even though she's been spayed a while now.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

Merci and Reilly (foster)









Merci and Kayla (foster)









Merci and Mina (overnighter)









You can see in one of these pictures her back is shaved because she came to GSRCA heartworm positive. After her babies all got placed in loving homes, we started fixing Merci up. She goes to most of our fundraisers cause she is so good with people and animals. I kept her because she failed two adoptions. When out in public she frets when I am not in her sight. She sat at the last adopters door and waited for me to come back and get her. And I did.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

Merci sounds like just the right Auntie for the pups. I Hope Mandy doesn't get too upset. I think you need to prepare yourself for a few days she is going to be really upset. She has very strong protective instincts for those puppies, so she is going to be worried, unsettled and a bit grumpy. But I think it is time to remove the pups from her. The pups need more human interaction and Merci sounds like she would be a great help to the pups.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

She's already getting grumpy cause the weather is gearing up to be bad. I am going to basically still keep her confined for the first week where she is and not let her have the full run of the downstairs. I may try to graduate to getting a leash on her before I give her more space. If we can start doing some walks together and I can enlist the help of my seasoned dogs for her reassurance, I think we'll go far. She needs to see that my other dogs love me and that I am not a bad person. Nothing like another dog to get the point across.


----------



## katieliz

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

just saw reports of the bad weather in your area, hope you guys are all safe...take good care...


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*



> Originally Posted By: katielizjust saw reports of the bad weather in your area, hope you guys are all safe...take good care...


Thanks! We are all staying put right now. I'll wait til tomorrow to get pups outside. I want their first day to be great not scary. They got in Mandy's food bowl this AM and did their best to eat her kibble. She politely let them. The water bowl is at their level too so they have access to it.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: March 31st - Mandy behaving badly*

It is good that she is letting the pups eat her food. So she is getting them to eat so she can wean them. Good girl.


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## gretasgifttome

*Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

It's done and we are all just letting the dust settle a bit. I'll update more later. It went as well as it could have under the circumstances. Mandy is carrying around her squeaky toy and still quite upset.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

Well that is understandable, but it must be done poor sweet gal.


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## melonyjhsn

*Re: Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

Keeping you in my thoughts today Chris. Hope things settle down soon.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

Mandy is confused but actually calming down quicker than I thought she would. She has come up to me very close to check me out. She still gets spooked easily and barks at me. 

The pups have had their first batch of good lovin', good food , dewormer and water. They went down for a nap afterwards. I'll be out with them again directly. I was pleased to see the little tails wagging and feeling them lick me was so encouraging. They snuggled very quickly. Movements seem to bother a couple of them. I introduced them to Merci and all went well there, too.


----------



## moei

*Re: Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

WOWIE! Good to hear. Thank you for all your caring and hard work. You are an


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## Castlemaid

*Re: Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

I can't imagine Mandy and her pups being in better hands than yours, Chris.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

Wow--big day for the pups and Mandy! What a lot of changes she's been through in the past couple of months! Glad she is doing better than expected and that the pups are doing ok. Good luck getting them desensitized to sights, sounds, etc. They are lucky to have such a devoted foster mom!


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

Our first day out pictures...


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## kshort

*Re: Sunday, April 6th - Puppies are moved*

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh - just look at Mandy's beautiful babies!!! They sure look like GSDs - do you think they are, Chris? They'll come around quickly. I trapped a litter of four week old feral kittens. The first two days were spent with them hissing and spitting at me. All it took was one brave kitten to come sit in my lap and the others followed. At that young age, I don't think you'll have any problems with these babies. I just hope Mandy comes around as quickly. You are doing an AWESOME job!


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## bearlasmom

*Re: Having Puppies Right Now!*

how are mom and pups today? 
One thing that you might want to try that i have used in the past is this: you and you DH wear a sweatshirt for a day or even at night in bed for one night (wearing in bed, strengthens the smell of you both. take the sweatshirts off and when you go down to feed her, casually FORGET the shirts on her bed, not where the pups and mom are but on the other one near her dishes. she will casually start scenting them when she get s up and become more use to the scent of the two of you.

another thing that you can do is to sit on the stairs if you can see her and the pups from there and just read to her. It doedownsnt matter what it is. do so in a soft and gentle voice tone. Have DH make a tape of him talking calmly to her or to you and then place the tape recorder in the basement and press play. put it on low so it appears that he is speaking gently to her. if she allows you to do laundry, then casually leave dog biscuits or her fav treats within her site. Have DH try to go and sit at the TOP of the stairs after a few days of her picking up on his scent. Have him speak quietly to her and if she becomes upset ask him to back off and try again a hr later. If she calms down, try sleeping in the room where she is, but totally ignore her and her behavior. Treat her for positive behavior. 

i cant remember whether i seen anything about you taking her out or not? im so tired right now, lol. the sleeping pills are starting to kick in, lol if you can even through a ball AWAY from her in the yard, she may go after it and try to play a bit. you are a saint doing all this for her and her pups. im so so glad taht she found someone as special as you. congrats and let us know how things are going pleaseeeeeeeee. im praying all turns around for you all. You are keeping her full time right? as in YOU ARE HER FOREVER HOME? if so, she will learn to trust in you. God bless you both (you and your dh)


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## gretasgifttome

*April 8th Mandy report*



> Originally Posted By: KShort They sure look like GSDs - do you think they are, Chris? They'll come around quickly.


Puppies are doing great!! They are very affectionate and come running to greet me. I trimmed toenails on all yesterday. Wow, no wonder Mandy was growling at them. They were sharp as needles. They do look shepherdy but I think the odds of her mating with one gsd in the woods would be slim. Some have a shorter coat. I guess we'll know more as they grow. 

Mandy, on the other hand, decided to remodel the basement last night. I was not giving her full access, but keeping her confined to the puppy pen area. She was growling a lot less and coming up to me very closely, even touching me once with her nose. She seems to get really upset at night. Night before last, I sat up with her several hours because I caught her trying to get out of her area to hide her squeaky toy. 

I was really tired from yesterday so I slept like a rock last night. Mandy is right below my bedroom and I heard some thumping around but just really tuned it out, thinking she couldn't get over the xpen barricade. Boy, was I shocked when I went down to see her this AM. 

She didn't go over the barracade, she went around and to do that, she had to pull a dishwasher away from the wall so she could squeeze behind it. She is very very industrious. She got into everything! I can just assume she was looking for the puppies. I hope she satisfied herself that they are not hiding in there. 

After cleaning up the mess, I fed her and put her in the puppy pen itself, with the door shut. I don't expect her to be still in there when I get back to check on her. It's only 3.5 feet high. If there is a bright side, I saw the Mandy that first came to me two weeks before she delivered. A very antsy dog that avoided me at all cost. When I sat down, though she sat down and came close. 

In jest, I said to Mandy, 'So are you telling me you prefer chicken to hotdogs?' since I thought I'd try someone new yesterday and bought hot dogs instead. Back to the store.


----------



## Papanapa

*Re: April 8th Mandy report*

I am so happy that things are looking up for you. This has been a difficult time and you are a miracle worker in my eyes.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*



> Originally Posted By: ShellyGI am so happy that things are looking up for you.


We are getting our girl back. We've just spent about an hour together. She's walking alot less hurriedly. I THINK she stayed in the puppy pen last night with no ill effects from the 1/4 ace tablet. I slept well. But just a while ago I heard a noise and she had gotten herself and her stuffed toy out of the pen - I guess by going over - and I went down and spent some time with her. She was in my presence more than not by her choice. She gave my legs and shoes some really good sniffs. Pottied outside. Wagging the tail again. Softer eyes. I hope to get the leash on her in the next couple of days and hopefully progress with her. I think once the trust has been firmly established we'll be out of the woods. 

For now, I am keeping the basement door locked and supervising her potty breaks so she doesn't do a houdini and escape the fence.


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## IliamnasQuest

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

I just love this thread. You're doing such a marvelous job, and will make all the difference in the world to this dog - a dog that most would have given up on long ago. 

Please continue to keep us updated. I think there are many who are following this thread who don't post on it much (like me) but who love seeing the updates.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

This evening Mandy took chicken bites off my shoes first, then off my knee. I'll just be feeding her kibble from now on at mealtime (maybe a little broth mixed in) but the chicken will be a reward for coming to me. I wonder how she'd do if I started marking social behavior with clicker training and eventually phase out the food reward. I am excited to see her relaxing again so quickly.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Christi,

This is all wonderful news! I'm so glad that the puppies are doing well and Mandy sounds like she's really coming around.







I wouldn't be too quick in phasing out the food rewards although I do think clicker training is a good idea. I know with my Basu food was the only thing that really convinced him to generalize that people were ok and not going to harm him. 

I hope you will be able to get her out for walks soon. I know that's contingent on getting a leash on her!. Maybe you can lay a treat track and then clip the leash on as she's following it. It sounds like she has a lot of energy and would benefit from some good exercise. Of course it will also give you some insight as to what she's like outside of your basement!


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow I hope you will be able to get her out for walks soon. I know that's contingent on getting a leash on her!.


The foster home that had her the 2 weeks before I got Mandy had her in a crate. Mandy would get as far in the corner of the crate as she could and Penny would just go very very slowly (talking softly) until she had her entire head and shoulders in the crate with Mandy. That sounds like pushing things to me, but Penny said Mandy never offered to snap or bite. Penny said once she had her leashed and Mandy couldn't go anywhere, she would then very gently get her hands on her to get her used to touch. I may try this in the puppy pen with Mandy. I thought maybe tomorrow, I'd go in the pen and sit on her blanket in the corner and hope that she'd come lay down near me on her dog bed. 

Side note: Mandy is a collector. All of her toys and items of value are on her dog bed with her. She keeps everything in one place.


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## Papanapa

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Maybe when you are done with Mandy you can work with my kids....they can't keep anything where it's supposed to be...LOL


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

She obviously likes having her own things and having things to take care of! Does she still carry her new toy with her everywhere?


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowShe obviously likes having her own things and having things to take care of! Does she still carry her new toy with her everywhere?


Yes, I think she's going to be active tonight. I heard some bumping around, went down to check on her and she's got her squeaky toy and is busy finding a place to keep it safe. She has four toys but this one is her favorite. 

She is jumping out of the puppy pen when I close the door so I'll just clean up the mess in the AM. Hopefully it won't be too bad. I'd rather clean up the mess than risk her hurting herself. The 1/4 tablet of ace helped last night but it's not something I want to use regularly on her.


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## melonyjhsn

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

That's cool that things are going so well









A clicker may be helpful with her. Do you have an i-click?
http://clickertraining.com/store/?item=traininggear

I had a foster who was hand and noise shy last year. He would startle at a normal louder clicker. I'd just got him comfortable with things in my hands and then I had to start all over again. I bought one of these and it was the only one that I could use with him. It's quieter and less sharp sounding. 

Can't wait to hear more adventures of Mandy.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*



> Originally Posted By: Mels_Kids A clicker may be helpful with her. Do you have an i-click?
> http://clickertraining.com/store/?item=traininggear I had a foster who was hand and noise shy last year. He would startle at a normal louder clicker. I'd just got him comfortable with things in my hands and then I had to start all over again.


Melony, thanks so much! I am so glad I posted my thoughts before actually breaking out the clicker. Mine are all the standard kind. I am amazed at Mandy's remodeling last night. It was nothing like what I had expected to walk in to. She ONLY moved things around in the two areas she had not searched before. How smart is that?!


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## StGeorgeK9

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

I have an i-click and I love it, it seems easier to mark behavior too, I'm not sure why, it just fits better in my hand.


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## melonyjhsn

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Your welcome









Another thought I had is when you first start the ‘click-treat-click-treat’ exercise to get the association going is to sit down in a chair and put the clicker on the floor under your shoe. That way you can step on it lightly for a click and immediately treat Mandy without her first having to wonder what the heck the new object is you’re holding in your hand. Had to back track and do that with the foster and it worked pretty well. I was able to move it to my hand after two brief sessions.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

I think we need an update. Oh Chris, how are things going with Mandy and how are the pups doing with their new Auntie.


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## Hatterasser

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Indeed, Chris. I've been following this tale with great interest and would dearly like to know how Mandy is doing? Where is she and where are the pups now? By the way, the pups are absolutely adorable. I could hug every one of them.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Puppies are doing great! They are so affectionate! 

Mandy is doing so much better too. We are getting back into our routine. I sit in a chair outside in her fenced potty yard and we talk. Then a few days of that and she was sitting beside me - on her own - for extended periods of time. Any movement would cause her to get up so over a period of a couple of days, I got her used to movement. She doesn't feel the need to bolt from that comfortable position when I breathe deep or move a toe now. And she is sniffing me and touching me. I gradually started putting my hand down by my side with her sitting beside me until she got used to that movement. Then I introduced the chicken. 

BREAKTHROUGH yesterday! She took one bite of chicken from my hand. I didn't push for more. I just put the remaining chicken in her food bowl as a reward and left her alone. This morning and evening she has increased the number of times she has come to my hand taking bites of chicken. She's gentle when she does it. I don't look at her or talk to her when she is near me. And she will only get comfortable with me from this one location. I can move to other chairs and she gets nervous and antsy and won't take food from me. So I start with just putting it down on the ground in front of me. 

I caught her playing last night with a sock. I think some of the destruction she has caused is puppy behavior.... like chewing up a roll of paper towels. I left her a new ball outside the puppy pen today when I left and she has it now inside the puppy pen with her. 

I appreciate the continued interest and the tips on the clicker. I have been brushing up on my clicker skills for when my delivery arrives soon. Each day Mandy seems to do something new that encourages me.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Thanks for the update! Sounds like things are really progressing well. I wonder what would happen if you threw a toy for her (just rolling it on the ground, without looking at her, of course!). I'll never forget the first time Basu initiated play on his own! It was so exciting--he picked up a pair of blue jeans and started running through the house with them, looking back to see if I would chase him.









Please continue to keep us updated. And we'd love to see more puppy pictures!


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## StGeorgeK9

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Yay Mandy! I have really enjoyed following this thread


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Awesome news!!!! I have only posted a few times on this thread but continue to read it and I am amazed at your ability to be patient with Mandy and Mandy's ability to continue to try.


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## katieliz

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

helping these dogs is so rewarding...awsome, awsome, job with this mom and babies!


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## leigh_e_c

*Re: April 9th Mandy report*

Ive read mostly all of this thread andI also think you've done/doing a marvellous thing here..

I have to say also that I foster high end abused kids and SO much of the behaviour Mandy has shown mirrors the kids I have in my house most days except mine talk/swear/throw stuff/threaten/smash up/ etc etc..lol..

I'm glad you've got the stickability to follow this thru..much merit to you sweetie..

I have no advice what to do in way of the dog aspect but I do have a survival tip book for the kids I have that Ive wrote over the last few years,lol.

xx


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy's Nocturnal - April 22*

I have been pondering this for a while now and would like to get some input. Mandy does things at night while I am sleeping that she doesn't do during the daytime. She did this before puppies came and I thought it might be nesting behavior. Puppies have been off her for 2 weeks now. 

Last night as soon as I laid down to sleep, I heard her barking. It was a playful bark, not an alarmed bark. I went down to check on her and there she is acting all innocent. I let her out to see if she had to do potty, etc and went back to bed. This AM the laundry is in the floor where she unfolded it and put it there. 

She is also chewing at the garage door. It's a wooden folding door, not an overhead garage door. I don't know if she's trying to let herself out or just needing to chew. 

I am wondering if this is puppy behavior in her. Maybe she never has been inside, never had toys or her own bedding. And/or could this be something she learned while living feral in the woods for eight months? I mean, my dogs sleep when I sleep. They don't stay up all night goofing around like she does. 

I have tried to interact with her in play and she's clueless about it. 

If this is feral behavior, will she become civilized over time? If I can get a leash on her and get to a deeper level of trust, I believe she would benefit tremendously from coming upstairs and seeing how it's _really _done as far as living inside.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy's Nocturnal - April 22*

I think it might be some feral behavior that she adapted. She became nocturnal so she wouldn't be seen during the day. She might have had this at her previous place, play when the creep owner isn't around to see.

I think that some dogs are more nocturnal than others, my male if he sleeps at night is very very light and little. He is the night watch dog. In most cases you can change this by upping the excercise during the day.

For toys get some of those toys that hold treats, I have some really neta foot ball shaped ones, stuff some chicken in there and roll towards her. That is a starting place.


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## elginhaus

*Re: Mandy's Nocturnal - April 22*

Is there a new thread on Mandy or are we due for an update?


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy's Nocturnal - April 22*

This is the thread. You beat me to it Bon, asking for an update.

Oh Chris, how are things going? Your pesty board friends are here checking on you, Mandy and the pups.


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## Cooper&me

*Re: Mandy's Nocturnal - April 22*

I keep loosing the thread because of the changing titles. Kind of fun to go back and read. I tell you this should be made into a book. The proceeds can go to the rescue. I just hope it is a book with a happy ending for Mandy.

Does she interact with any of the other dogs? When will the pups be put up for adoption?


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy's Nocturnal - April 22*

Michelle, I am going to Archive this thread when Mandy and pups finish writing the story. There is great information about whelping and puppy care for some really scared Rescue mom who whelp in a new home.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Mandy and I have progressed farther along, I think. She purposefully walks toward my hand and under it for stroking and will not get spooked if I move it very slowly toward her. I hope the next step will be that she will stop and let my hand rest on her to eventually accept petting. She slows down her movement under my hand. I would like to hope that she's trying to extend the sensation of positive touch. I use chicken treats about 50% of the time.

The past three days I have seen some changes that bother me. I am not exactly sure what to attribute it to. The weather here has been thundery and rainy. The DAP plug in probably needs replacing. And my husband worked in town this week. This weekend on Fri and Sat he came into the basement and spoke to Mandy and this is when I seemed to notice her behavior change. I told him if he was going to come down to just sit quietly and not talk to her or look at her but my husband (usually a man of few words) said he couldn't sit there and not talk. So he left. 

Mandy stayed out of kilter this weekend. I spent my usual amount of time with her but when she would here a noise upstairs, she would look panicked and start pacing and checking to see who was coming down. Actually what she heard was two dogs playing upstairs but even I thought it sounded like Mikes boots walking across the floor. 

She got so upset that she put front feet on the fence while I was sitting out there with her. Something I had not seen her do. I was giving her a bit of freedom and letting her have access to her potty area without my supervision but seeing her look like she wanted to escape has got me rethinking my extention of her priviledges. 

First thing on the agenda is reordering the DAP plug in. Mike is working in TN this week so I think we'll get back to normal. And the weather is supposed to clear up, too. 

I believe I have read Mandy clear enough that I am going to let she and Maxx meet. He's my buffer. He's my 95 pound neutered male that is 7 years old and actually is a big baby. Not an alpha type at all but more like a peacemaker type. I'll just let Maxx come in Mandy's area and say hello this week. 

Puppies are 8 weeks old today!! At this time I can safely say we do not have german shepherd pups. Nevertheless they are just darling and have no residual fears from mom. They are just, normal happy, fat pups. I asked the girl that trapped Mandy to ride back to where she was and let me know what daddy types we had in the area and she said all kinds. Beagles, Pits, Shepherd mixes, Hounds. She said dogs were running loose everywhere.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Chris,
I think it is normal that Mandy will have some setbacks along the way. The good thing is she is making progress. A few suggestions or thoughts for you Many and Mike.

First find some older T-shirts and have Mike wear them, put each one in a zipper type food storage bag. When Mike is gone and Mandy is more settled, bring out a T-shirt and leave it with her in her area. Mike's smell but nothing treatening to her. That will get her use to his smell. Then next time when he is home put duct-tape on his mouth, LOL.

Next thing is when you want to try to have longer hand contact with Mandy, stroke her with the back of your hand. Dogs are so touch sensitive that the back of the hand is less threatening because it doesn't (can't) cup and try to grab her. I have used this with several scared dogs to get them use to my touch without feeling trapped or like someone was going to grab them.

I think you guys are making great progress. Life dealt this gal such a crappy hand and at what I feel is one of the worst times in females lives, that 8 month of age or so until 2 years of age. They can seem to get really touchy or screwed up really easy in that time span. It sounds like she has some good nerves in there, but her walls of self preservation are so strong that it is going to take you a while to get her to relax and let down the walls.

Thanks for the update.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerChris,
> 
> That will get her use to his smell. Then next time when he is home put duct-tape on his mouth, LOL.


These are all great suggestions but I like this one best!!!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

I have been reading/avoiding this thread because I saw Mandy's picture and immediately thought...no one would even notice her here...I have even not posted because I am afraid my fingers will overrule my brain and type something stupid like send her here. You are very lucky to have this dog with you and vice versa. 

Check out the rescue archives for Anna's (Flora) very first thread, written by her first foster mom, Karen (Mawdy's Mom).


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

I realized something today. I was wrong about Mandy's destructiveness being mischevious puppy behavior. It's panic. Sheer fear. I spent a lot of time with her today, paying attention to what spooks her. Noises upstairs - any kind of thumping noise. It provokes a fast pacing, panting, sometimes defecating. The destruction at the door is her trying to get out. When I was sitting with her tonight, one of my heavy gsds started down the stairs after me. Mandy got so afraid she started jumping on the door to get out. I opened it and she climbed up in the chair I sit in outside and acted as if she would going over the fence. I think she could if she had to. 

Now, I am worried that she'll somehow escape and not be spayed. So, I am making it my goal to hopefully get her on a leash and to the vet. I would like to do it this week because I am going out town to the beach on May 9-11th. Mike will be home and be the one responsible for feeding and cleaning up after her. It could be a disaster in the making. I may let the president of GSRCA take her while I am gone. I just don't know what is best for Mandy. 

On a positive note, Mandy met Merci today. I decided to let Merci come on in the basement so Mandy could see what it was that was coming down the stairs. Everything was fine, just the usual sniffs. 

I am feeling terribly sorry for Mandy tonight and the fear that she lives with. I can sit next to her in the puppy pen on the ground. Well, I sit down and she chooses to lay down across from me with about 2 feet between us. She gets up if I move but maybe we can make progress in this location like we did outside.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Chris, my DeeDee is like that. She finally found her safe spot in the house which is up in our bedroom, most of the time in the back of the walkin closet. But sometimes the storms are too much, she still panics so I put her in her crate.

Some tools that I have found that help, I have a box fan that I put right next to her crate, not blowing on her, but right next to it. Something about the sound of the fan drowns out some of the noise. Also I have had the TV on and a Radio on the crate, so hopefully at no time is there not a flood of noise. The fan and radio seem to work well.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

I have had the radio playing for weeks. The sound of the dryer does seem to soothe her (or maybe that is my imagination). Last night I sprayed the door that she is trying to chew down with a deterrant. I didn't see that she had chewed on it further. I sprayed a towel with DAP and left it in her area. The only destruction was that she destuffed a pillow. It was a mess, but no harm was done, really. 

I finally got my clickers in. I ordered the i-click but have been trying to simulate the sound for weeks before by making other noises. Of course she is afraid of it. I have only let her hear the clicker about 3 times. I just got some good tips off of the Karen Pryer Clickertraining.com website so will try to implement some of her suggestons.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Have you clicked with your mouth?

I did that with Anna. Since she couldn't take food from me for months, I couldn't pair it with food, unless tossed near her (not at her-that would be scary) but since the other dogs were with her that wouldn't work. However, she "got" the marking of my clicks and I shaped behaviors that were the most infinitesimal signs of progress. 

She took (takes) a lot of comfort from, and learned by watching, my dogs. I bet Mandy's even learning from her puppies. 

A practical thing I did with Anna in taking her out was a long line and two martingale collars/leashes because she would chew through her leashes. I also got Lupine leashes because they replaced all of them for free! NICE! I guess a cable cut to be more of a leash would have worked...I wasn't think of that then. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=612233&page=0&fpart=1

The destruction, hoarding, biting, chewing were all nerve things for Anna. It takes a LONG time to get rid of the chemical cocktail of fear. I see a lot of the behavior as having a basis in her chemistry and that takes time, movement, and being ignored a lot







to get rid of. 

Alternative things like an animal communicator helped Anna a great deal in her first foster home and I kept them up when I got her.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANHave you clicked with your mouth?
> 
> She took (takes) a lot of comfort from, and learned by watching, my dogs. I bet Mandy's even learning from her puppies.


Yes, while I was waiting for my order to be delivered from Karen Pryor, I did the mouth clicking thing. I had Mandy taking food from my hand but am backtracking a bit to get her used to the sound of the i-click. I click when I put her meal down. Then I did an exercise where I put a food bowl down, click and drop a chicken bite in the bowl. The exercise says to do this no more than six times during this exercise. Mandy did almost take food from the bowl so I am quite encouraged about that. At the end of the exercise if she hadn't taken food (and she hadn't) click, drop food in the bowl and get up and leave. When I went back a little later of course Mandy had eaten the food. She catches on so quickly that I believe we'll make some headway. The bad thing about her catching on quickly is she catchies on to scary things as well, like the footstep noise from upstairs. 

Jean, Mandy has not seen her pups in over 3 weeks now. At five weeks of age, I had only gotten my hands on them twice because Mandy was soooo protective. Bedding wasn't getting changed, dewormings didn't get done and most importantly the pups were not finding out humans are ok. About 2 weeks after I separated them, I did try to move the pups inside the house one night when it was supposed to get chilly and they hollered so loudly that I thought Mandy was going to tear the door down trying to get upstairs. It's just been best that she not hear them or see them. 

I have moved my lawn furniture out where she can see me interact with the other dogs. That does seem to help her. And she did finally meet one yesterday without a fence in between them. It went very well.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANHave you clicked with your mouth?
> 
> I did that with Anna. Since she couldn't take food from me for months, I couldn't pair it with food, unless tossed near her (not at her-that would be scary) but since the other dogs were with her that wouldn't work. However, she "got" the marking of my clicks and I shaped behaviors that were the most infinitesimal signs of progress.


Jean, I read the Anna/Flora thread you included in the post. PLEASE tell me the ending!!! I got lost when Anna slipped her collar, killed roosters, was recaptured, but the foster home couldn't take her back. Who has Anna now?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Ah! I missed the puppy part-that is understandable. 

If the mouth click was working, I'd keep using it-I just got the I-click too







so I know how much fun it is to use. In fact, the tech clicked her pen today at the vet office and both the dogs I had with me looked at her for the treat! But if she is able to get used to the i-click over time...that's good. It is the time/schedule thing. We have ideas as to how fast things should move and they have no concept of time-so it's difficult. 

She MAY (and I say may because you never know if a dog is going to have other dog issues) be able to relate more with your dogs than with you. 








I have Anna now.







Long story short, I e-mailed her foster and said if you ever find her I will foster her for BrightStar. I got her in July-my vet heard a heart murmur from when she was shot while she had escaped-fund raised for surgery at Cornell, and BrightStar gave her to me for Christmas that year. Her middle thread got pruned, but her latest thread is there in that rescue stories section. I am sure Mandy is going to be hugely successful-she already is and so are you. 

What I really enjoy about major rehab cases-it's like watching those home makeover shows-the worse they start out the better they look-as long as you compare them to themselves and not anyone else.







Congratulations on all you've accomplished already. 

PS-One word: Arby's.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Chris,

This is the thread I wanted you to read when Mandy was being so testy with you.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=98549&page=1#Post98549


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Chris
Is there anything you need? I am a cumpulsive shopper for my dogs and have lots of crap. Wonder if I could send a care package your way?
Pm with anything specific and address if you would like. I feel so helpless. Would like to help any small way possible.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

My hat is off to you guys that do the tough re-habs. Don't think I could.


----------



## Kaitadog

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Any new updates? I have just read the entire thread. Wow. You are amazing. I hope all is well. Keep up the good work!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Things are kind of at a standstill right now. With me getting ready to go out of town this weekend and my husband babysitting the dogs, I reintroduced him to Mandy. First last friday with just a shirt of his that he had worn. On Sat, he sat outside at the table interacting with our other dogs while Mandy looked on. I sat inside with Mandy. She was curious and I think that helped her more than anything. Mike followed my instructions not to look at or talk directly to Mandy. Just acted himself with the other dogs. Then on Sunday before he left to go out of town, he went downstairs and sat with her for about 5 minutes. I let Merci down with him so she would have the influence of another dog. Mandy defecated in fear but that is pretty usual for her when something startles her. 

Then this week, I have been just basically doing our routine without trying to add anything new since I'll be gone this weekend. 

She's adjusting to the i-click well, I think. We have not moved any mountains though. Thanks for checking in with us.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars. 
Kahlil Gibran

Don't worry about moving mountains-they are relative anyway.


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> Don't worry about moving mountains-they are relative anyway.


I love that line.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Hey Chris how did you weekend away go. Did Mandy and DH survive?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Mandy survived being taken care of by a man!! She does appear to have lost a few pounds, though. But I can fix that. She was quite glad to have some boiled chicken today. Mike's gone to TN to work and will likely not come home for a couple weeks. My worst fear was her escaping and that did not happen! 

The puppies are HUGE. It seems they have grown so much! 

The house was in shambles - I wonder if he ever let them out to use the bathroom. Must not have occurred to him to run the vaccuum or sweep! But less was probably more in Mandy's case. No catastrophes and for that I am glad. The others... they are happy mommy is home. So am I. First vacation in five years.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

Chris, It is hard for Mandy to get use to Mike when he is gone some much of the time. She probably has Man issues any one from the first owner and with Mike gone so much of the time he hasn't been able to get past her protection walls she throws up.

Was she glad to see you. Some times going away shakes them up a bit and they realize that you are a GOOD person.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> Was she glad to see you. Some times going away shakes them up a bit and they realize that you are a GOOD person.


I was hoping she would be, but I am content that we didn't regress.


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy update - April 28*

I checked back for a new update - how are things going? 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

Well, No real strides in progress to report. I keep working at it, though. She has not destroyed anything in quite a while. She's moved things around and chewed on her toys so I believe she's settled in. And I believe she plays when she's by herself. And she likes the company of other dogs. It's just people she doesn't trust. My goal of getting a leash on her has not transpired and I am a bit discouraged about that. I am open to suggestions on how to accomplish that.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

Can you put a drag leash on her when she is in the basement, maybe start just so it doesn't drag the ground, then as time goes on make it longer. The problem is when you aren't there if there is a place she could get her drag leash stuck on then it would defeat the purpose.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

Chris, I got Anna to go in a petting spot. We still do this for a lot of things. Now that she doesn't poop, she goes on a chair or couch to get "bad" things done to her like nail clips, flea stuff, generally unpleasant things. Would she do that? (and kind of cower down like you are going to beat her, but holding still...and maybe pooping or expressing her anal glands, but still!) 

Anyway, we named a petting spot-her idea, really, I think-so I am not sure how to teach it to another dog. Outdoors it was in a corner. Indoors in the corner by the door. Again-not sure how we communicated this-she seemed to have the thought. Huh...

But if you could get her in an area that she goes to naturally, name it, and then encourage that to be the area where you touch her, brush her, put her collar/leash on, etc. and if she will take food (ARBYS!) give her a special food there. Or put her special food in a designated area and mark it with a word to start teaching petting spot. 

The hard thing with these dogs is you have to break down behaviors SO far. I learned to do it in an inservice program I had to do in a school district I worked in-I can't remember what it is called-so I wrote it all out like I would for a kid. AH! Task analysis! 

The part I was good at was the patience and waiting part-I was in no hurry because I had Mariele with a head injury at the same time to contend with so that took a lot of pressure off of Anna's progress! 

I double leashed Anna because she would often bite through one (Lupine replaces for free). 

What really helped though is having one dog get their collar/leash on, she would watch HOW excited they were to do it, and then she would be okay with it. For a long time she never left the house without at least one other dog with her. At first they needed two dogs to be with her because she was so anxious that one dog would pick up on it, two could resist that level of stress. 

So use your other dogs as much as possible, which is what I did most. Hopefully some of this babble will help!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

Yes, the suggestions help tremendously!!! I see that we have been moving in this very direction but until Jean broke it down for me on how it worked for Anna, I didn't realize what we were doing.

I have not gotten the leash clipped to her since before she had babies. She runs from me when I reach out toward her. BUT we have designed two corners. One inside and one outside. I have been afraid of cornering her.... not for fear of her biting me but for fear of traumatizing her. 

I have DAPped a leash and left it out in plain site for her. I have worn the DAPped leash around my neck, draped over my leg and carried it in my hand. Mandy has torn up one of my best leashes by me leaving it out for her so I have no doubt that she'll eat through one quickly. 

I have been leashing the other dogs (2 of them for the most part) in front of her. I have been brushing them in front of her and accidentally brushing her when she would sneak into her corner around them. The touch I have with her is still very casual and initiated by her walking under my hand. I have been taking two of them into the basement with her and playing with them. I swear, she smiles when she sees them playing. 

Ok, so she'll forgive me if I corner her for petting and good things? This is the second time Jean has mentioned ARBY's.... do tell.


----------



## kshort

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

Chris,
Have you thought about maybe using an animal communicator? I've talked to several people lately who have had tremendous success with them. One is a friend who is a trainer and she swears by the communicators she's used. She said it has broken through training situations that she was stumped with. The communicator does not have to physically be with the dog. If you're interested, I'd be glad to send you the names of the ones that were recommended to me. One lady is in California and two are in Colorado.

Jean - your opinion??


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

I have used an animal communicator. Very good with Basu and Chama and not so good with Cleo (not surprising though). 

The rescue I worked with in WI used one for the tough cases like Mandy. I like that's a great idea. 

And it sounds like you are making progress but you have to measure it differently. She is a very, very special dog.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

WOW-yes, you are making HUGE progress! Brushing, contact, etc. is really big. Even if its incidental. I would put food on my fingers-greasy potato chips (gave me a reason to get a little bag of greasy potato chips-BBQ for strong flavor/odor) so that I would become finger lickin' good! Anna would sneak over (and I would be looking away or paying attention to someone else) as I would hold my arm out relaxed-and she would take a quick lick and dart away. 

I will never forget the day she was relaxed enough to look at the ceiling-that was so big. It's weird how you can measure progress in so many ways. 

I think Lupine must have thought I was chewing through the leashes, or was a mole for another company testing to see if the would continually replace the leashes I bought! But it was nice to have that service because she would just chomp and gone. I have often thought I should have bought an outdoor cable type thing, cut it and covered it in fabric or something...but I didn't think of it then! 

I can only say what Anna did with the cornering but she seemed to need that for her care (and still does). I think I thought of it as cornering, I think she MAY have thought of it as den-like, or protected on 3 sides. She also got a lot of soft praise and clicks and when she would actually take food from me, treats. Arby's is the first food she took. It was 4 months after I got her, and I handed it to her from the front seat of the car to her spot on the floor in the back seat. Once she realized that delicious greasy meat







came from my hands, she started wanting more. That was back when you could get 5 for $5 and I'd buy a bag of them for her and dole them out.







The other dogs like this too of course! 

Anna was also totally different when playing/observing the other dogs. Relaxed posture and features, and that is the first time her tail wagged. I let her bond with them-I didn't care who she bonded with, I wanted her to trust someone. Now she's been able to transfer that kind of thing to me. I realize I've had her now for almost 4 years (July) and I still can't walk up and pet her outside and have to do it "just so" to do it inside. But I wouldn't trade her for all the normal dogs in the world. 

Anna had a communicator that she worked with. When she was in VA with Karen, I had used him for my dog Bruno and suggested him to Karen. I think it helped a great deal, actually. He's now retired-I would love for him to talk to her now. I do send him pictures so he can see what she's up to. Strangely, he told us (at a presentation he did to raise money for her heart surgery) that her leg was tingly. I asked her vet and the cardiologist if this could be so before the operation and they said not likely. When her surgeon went over the procedure, he noted that her one leg hadn't been receiving the full blood supply. I asked what that would feel like in us-he said numb, tingly...weird huh! 

You are doing great. I am so happy for this dog.


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

It sounds like everything has to be done with such tiny baby steps. It must be so difficult for both you and her. But by your description I think you've made bigger strides than you realize. On a day-to-day basis, though, it's probably hard to see.

I swear by ARby's too - it's one of the things that my chows will turn backflips for! Something about that warm greasy meat .. *L* .. another good smelly food is liverwurst. I have been working my older chow off-leash on walks by taking a handful of liverwurst with me. It's messy but the dogs LOVE it. And Dora, the older chow, actually did the weave poles the other day (she hasn't done them in YEARS) for a bit of liverwurst. It must bring out good memories.

Thanks for keeping us updated!

Melanie and the gang


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

How is that girly doing? 

Arby's here is doing 4 for $5-I freeze it!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

Wondering how things are going!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

1. I am tired of seeing that Mikko's penis sticks out every time I look at this section of the board.









2. Just checking in (trying not to be an annoyance but not succeeding) on Mandy.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

I think we need an update also...


----------



## DSudd

*Re: Mandy update - May 28*

It has been a month since the last update. I would love an update also.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN1. I am tired of seeing that Mikko's penis sticks out every time I look at this section of the board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Just checking in (trying not to be an annoyance but not succeeding) on Mandy.


hahahaha!!! I have not been on the board for a while, I guess you can tell and the first thing I saw was about Mikkos penis! Good grief!!! lol 

For about the past 3-4 weeks, my Maxx (neutered 7 yo male) has been Mandy's companion, mostly by day. However, he's helped her so very much!! She relaxes around him. If he drinks water, she drinks. She lays where he lays, if he tries to catch a bee, so does she, etc. He is a ball nut and I play daily with him while he's with Mandy. She's relaxed and happy, yet still I am not touching her more than I was. 

She no longer defecates at all in my presence even if I walk fast or accidentally drop something. I wasn't noticing this until a neighbor came over about 2 weeks ago and then last weekend Mike SPOKE to Mandy. Her reaction was fast pacing and pooping. 

Now, here's the best.... Two weeks ago a shelter called me about six purebred gsd pups. I brought three home to foster and well had no where to put them except in the basement IN A CRATE with Mandy and Maxx. They are teeny tiny. Shelter told us six weeks old, more like four!! So, obviously I have been downstairs ALOT. And I don't let them walk around with Mandy and Maxx because they weigh less than 5 pounds. (very undernourished but getting better). BUT when I have them outside of the fence, they prance up to Mandy so innocently and she wags her tail to them. Full circle tail wagging. Then she'll check to see if I am watching. (Is wagging the tail a bad thing? Who knows what she thinks) But I cried when I saw her do it the first time cause she had not wagged her tail or showed any happy emotion since early February. 

She's stable but not where I want her to be. GSRCA has some adopters that highly recommend McDonalds K9 Academy. Kevin McDonald has been totally briefed on Mandy's situation and is coming to see her July 10th. Our goal is to get a leash on her if possible so she can get the vet care she needs (spayed) and hopefully I can start taking her to his office for intensive work. It should be a real challenge since he is a man but it will be interesting to say the least. 

She's getting used to the camera since I am always taking pics of the puppies. I'll try to upload some of her soon.


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Do you think she is probably with you permanently? I am anxious to see her updated photos. She is a stunning girl if memory serves me.

I feel for her. Such a young thing to be so damaged. I am glad she is enjoyng the pups.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Thanks for the update I have been checking too. SOunds like she is coming along very slowly.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

She sounds like she is making progress, seems that Max and the puppies have helped her. Being as feral as she was acting and her bad experience in the previous home I would expect it to be a while for her to heal in her brain. Mental abuse can leave some pretty bad scars in the brains, every bit as bad as physical abuse which she probably had some of that.

If this person from the Academy is one of those really great dog persons, it might be really good for her to learn that she can trust a man.

This might sound strange but have you considered an animal communicator, I have never used one myself, but I am always open to different things if it would help one of my dogs.

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I am certainly open to anything with Mandy. And if she stays with me forever, that will be ok too. Not that I need another dog but I'll do what needs to be done for her. It's time someone show her a better life. She may not be living it yet, but at least she sees it in action with the other dogs. Hopefully she will heal and it will just be a matter of time.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Val, I second the animal communicator if it's a good one. I have used one with Anna and it did help. I wish he was still working because he was really good. (he said her leg was tingly before her surgery-the vets said probably not-after surgery they said the circulation was being cut off to that leg-cue Twilight Zone music!)

Chris-is there any chance that Mandy was sexually assaulted? 

She is making huge progress. Can't wait to see new pictures!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

That has not occurred to me Jean. I have never been around a dog that has been sexually assualted (although I have heard of sickos doing that).


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Yeah...I am sure they all have different reactions. 

I THINK (don't know) one of Anna's was to "fear poop." She may have done that anyway, but my thinking was that it was protective. It happened around me/women, but especially so with men-and more quickly. I always wondered if it was related. I have no way of knowing, but do know it was connected to laughing as well.







I had her vet check her out.







She's MUCH better now though-she still will do it every once in a while when she's feeling cornered/forced, but now it is formed. And I celebrate that!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Maxx and Mandy. He has a ball in his mouth. She's tracking right with him.









Mandy hiding behind Maxx.









Mandy alone. This is where she chooses to rest. In the puppy pen where she was raising her pups. I sweep in there about every other day. Give her a fresh blanket and she rearranges her toys when I am not looking.









She still looks scared in this last picture but she is still (not moving)and not crouching. Big progress. Notice in all the pictures, she does not take her eyes off me.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

HA! Look! http://www.dogster.com/dogs/80509/in/stroll/ Similar eyes! That's when I was fundraising for her. Anna has an uncanny ability to know exactly where I am at all times-she could sense me at the door watching her play. Hypervigilent. She's much more relaxed, but really in tune with me-now it's in a pleasant way. 

DUH! Forgot to say what a beautiful girl she is and how sweet Maxx is!


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Yep, same eyes!! Ever watching. Tell Anna I said she is a very lucky girl.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Mandy had her evaluation this thursday. My attempt to get a leash on her failed but the behaviorist saw what he needed to see about her personality from our interactions. He says that she is just afraid, not fear aggressive. And that he is sure he can help her. He needs me to bring her in to his school where she'll stay 7-10 days. He'll get his hands on her and break through the fear barriers. He said that he believes she has never bonded with a human before but that she is young enough to be taught. 

The plan is for me to ace her, get the martingale collar on her, leash her and get her into the car and to his office. 

It sounded ok when I met him and when we were talking but now I am getting scared. I don't like drugging her but I tried again today to get the martingale on her and she just dodged me continuously. And I have always told others not to leave their dogs at a training academy but to participate in the training. So I am feeling nervous about leaving her. I don't think anything bad will happen to her in his care. 

After the first week in her care, he'll have me come up for training with her. We'll have several sessions before she goes home and we'll have a strict regime at home. She'll either be crated or leashed for a while. She'll not be allowed to revert back to the avoidance behavior. 

Does anyone have any thoughts?


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Did he give any info on his plan to "break through the fear barriers"?


----------



## RebelGSD

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Even if the training does not change her, I think it will do her good to get home to you after the week. She'll be happy to be home in a familiar environment and with you. It will improve her relationship with you regardless of the training. IMO


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

What on earth is he going to do in 7-10 days??????????


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Okay, got myself back under control now.









Would he just give you his protocol and let you do it under either his supervision or on your own?

Is he going to be using flooding techniques? How exactly does he propose to teach a dog to bond to someone?

I could see if you wanted fast results that you could do the same things yourself. However, after all the time and work you've put in, it doesn't seem like the quick fix is what you are after!







And if you do want faster results, I still think you can do it on your own with guidance. 

I personally do not believe in the quick fix-for severe behavior issues-I think there is a lot of regression that happens, that learning can't happen at certain fear levels and that it sticks much better when the dog is able to get it on their own. Thinking of a kid in a classroom struggling in math-better to give him calculus and try to make him learn it and be able to get him to memorize how to do one problem, or go back to the basics and allow him to develop an understanding where he can apply things from now into the future...

Of course this is me assuming that anyone who can make a dog bond to them and turn things around so quickly is not going to be using techniques that are based in systematic desensitization. 

Did I post the Yahoo Shy k-9 group for you? Maybe post there?
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s/


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Chris,

I am concerned on so many things here. 

First you have to Ace her to get the Martingale on, I have see Ace used on fearful or aggressive dogs and unless you give them enough to knock them out, the fearful and aggressive behavior can be worse.

If it is flooding he is going to use, that also could work the opposite way and drive her further into herself and not force her out.

OK say she does come out of her shell, if she is really looking for a person to bond with and trust she will start opening up to the trainer and when she comes home you will IMHO have a situtaion where she is looking for the person and it isn't you and she will just retreat into herself.

I would honestly try a communicator before I sent her away for 7 - 10 days. Give Mandy a chance to tell you what she needs, maybe if you know what she wants and needs then you guys can get there. It might be worth a try at least it wouldn't be pushing her.

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I think my gut is telling me NOT to go this route. At least not yet. I have too many fears that it could make her worse, just as you are feeling. I will just pay him for the consult and put him on hold until I can feel better about the whole thing. 

He has helped another one of our adopters but she didn't have near the level of fear that Mandy has. And the other dog of ours he is working with developed territorial aggression after adoption. She was on the verge of being put down because the other trainers and consultants didn't help her. She was biting people that came into their home, including the mother in law. And believe me, her adopter didn't stop until he found someone to help Gingi and I am proud of that. But I also emailed Mark to see how she was doing this week as this is her second week out of boot camp. I have not heard from him. I am wondering if she regressed. She was doing very well the first week out. The trainer kept her three weeks but that was at Marks request. 

Yes, there is no rush. Someone give me the name of that communicator again.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

The trainer says he needs to see Mandy in his setting because HE works better there. He can spend optimal time with her. Here is the link to their site. Tell me what you think, please. 
http://mcdonaldk-9.com/whoweare.html


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I gotta say, I'm kind of relieved to read this. He may be a good trainer but sometimes egos and rushing get in the way of long term results and I'd hate to see that happen to Mandi, as much work as you and she have both put in, especially since you're so committed to helping her so there's no real need to hurry. 

If I were you, I'd be really interested to know exactly what he does - maybe even to the point of observing at his training place. I am always a little worried about "send away" training places anyway. Some can be good, I'm sure, but if you are going to be handling her, you need to know how to work with her. I don't really believe a dog can be "fixed" in such a short period of time. Plus GSDs are so intelligent, I think being ripped out of your house and sent someplace strange could be pretty traumatic for her. I realize stories about fostering a dog for over a year may or may not be encouraging but I wanted to tell you that the teeny tiny totally feral foster dog I told you about in one of the early Mandy threads made a HUGE leap forward last month. She now allows me to hold, pet, and carry her around - and best of all seeks out and enjoys physical contact. I wasn't sure we'd ever get to this point but here we are!









I genuinely believe that dogs have a strong innate, hardwired, desire to be with and interact with people. In cases like these poor girls, obviously they've been given real reasons to counter that but I do think the hardwiring is there and we can make tremendous progress given the time and effort.


----------



## kshort

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Chris,
Here are a couple of names:

http://www.animaluniversity.com/

JoLee Wingerson. Her website is http://www.spirit-whispering.com and her phone number is 303-499-9963.

Carol Gurney. http://www.animalcommunicator.net

http://jacquelinsmith.com/

I don't have any personal experience, but the first two are used by a friend of mine who is a trainer. She has been amazed at the results she's had.

I know Jean has personal experience with one and I'm sure she'll post that information here!


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

What the heck do they mean by they use "emotional manipulation"?









I haven't read the articles yet but scanning through the first couple pages they don't really explain how they train. There's a lot of verbage but it doesn't actually explain anything. 

ETA: Okay, now I've read the articles and while I'm a HUGE believer in understanding dogs' body language, cues, and meeting them where they are as individuals, I'm still not seeing any specifics about _how_ they communicate what they want to the dogs. Also, they mention Pavlov's classical conditioning, but Skinner (and other's) operant conditioning is actually the far more commonly used training paradigm in behavior modification. 

I understand wanting to have the dog there to spend more time with it but I'd want to see someone working with my dog (not one of their already trained dogs) _a lot _before I'd let them out of my sight with an animal in my care. Not saying they're not fine, but there are, unfortunately, a lot of training situations that aren't, and better safe than sorry.


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I just want to thank you for everything you've done for Mandy and her family, she looks just like Onyx. Your instincts have been good so far with her and it sounds like by NOT sending her away, IMO is the right thing to do for her. She would be so scared in an unfamilar place, you and your pack are a comfort to her, I think she keeps her eye on you for approval, security. Whatever you choose to do, I wish you all the best.


----------



## Mom2Sam

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Wow, I have read this whole thread tonight and I am exhausted. Mandy and her puppies are so beautiful! She is so lucky to have you, what a patient soul you are, God bless you. Sorry if I missed it but are her puppies still with you or have they been adopted? I bet you never thought this many people would get so involved in your story huh? Good luck to you, Mandy and the rest of your crew. Keep up the good work and all the good decisions you are making for the well being of Mandy.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I'm just catching up on Mandy's thread. I personally don't like the idea of send away training for a dog like Mandy. Can they write up a protocol for you to use with her?

I second Jean's suggestion to join the ShyK9s group. There are trainers on there and many people with dogs as fearful as Mandy.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Chris, IF Mandy would have responded and IF he was willing to come and work with her that would be one thing. 

I think you could use some help, but I don't think Ace'ing her and moving her is the right thing for her right now. She is use to you, she watches you. You and your dog just need to work with her more and see if you can get her to drop her barrier for her. I see her as having a physical (distance) and mental barrier so no one can hurt her again. She is a dog that has a strong self preservation drive. If you can get her to let you in, I don't see that rehoming her will be easy or possible, but she will be YOUR dog and IMHO defend you with her life. 

Just a thought, have you tried being in her area, but not looking or paying any attention to her, keeping your back to her. If she is looking for the eye contact with you then she will be the one that has to move to make that happen. That would be a huge step. Even if you have to use cooked chicken to get her to come to you. 

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I wondered too, what 'emotional manipulation' was. I didn't like the sound of it. 

I don't think she's at the point of initiating eye contact. I wish she was. I don't care if she lives with me forever. She's no trouble. I am quite bothered by the fact that I can't get a leash on her to get her to a vet for her spay. She'll need heartworm treatment at some point too and will need to go back for frequent checks. I think I wanted someone to get us to that level more so than anything else. I'll try the communicators first. 

Someone asked a question about Mandy's puppies. I still have three boys, Screech, Scruffy and Scamper. I am sorry to have to write (and even think about it) but two of them were killed by Trinka another one of my foster gsds. I can't tell you how my heart sunk in my chest when I woke up to find them gone. I had spent the day before fixing the fence because Screech had managed to go through the chain link. I heard him screeching and went out and Trinka was mouthing him. I honestly don't know if she was trying to hurt him. I want to think not. I caught her nosing him like a dog might do a squeeky toy when they are trying to get the stuffing out. So I repaired all the fencing. The next morning I awoke to find Jasmine and Charlie Behr dead in Trinka's pen. She had dug a perfect tunnel UNDER the concrete footing that separates the two pens and Jasmine and Behr innocently accepted her invitation over. There was no blood, just death. I had tried to keep the puppies inside my kitchen in an xpen and Mandy heard them crying and almost broke down the door trying to get to them. It was the only place I had to put them and none of the other foster homes had space. 

The boys are nearly 5 months old. No one is interested in adopting them. They are fully vetted including neuter. They are big boys, about 40 pounds each. Very houndy looking but every once in a while Scruffy gets an ear up.


----------



## RebelGSD

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I am so sorry for the two puppies you lost. It does not take much to hurt a puppy, unfortunately.

The three pups are adorable, I love the ears all over the place. Have you tried one of the rescues in the North? Mixed breed puppies do get placed quite easily in the North.


----------



## Fee

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Just wanted to send good wishes for Mandy and say how sorry I am for the puppies you lost. Like RebelGSD said, it doesn't take much to hurt a little one. 

The other pups are so cute!!!







I hope they find a forever home soon.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

The rescue thinks I should go ahead and let Kevin have Mandy.


----------



## RebelGSD

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

The problem is, if she has a setback, you'll feel responsible and will beat yourself up for letting her them push you into it.

It would help to find out more about his methods. The website uses the correct phrases but it is all about the way the technique is implemented.
At this time you are not able to make an educated decision based on the information you have. 
In my experience, there are no shortcuts in life. If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. 

I had a fear aggressive foster in boarding with a trainer for 2+ months. I was told he was wonderful, did beautifully with people and that he was ready for adoption. We had a good applicant and the trainer accompanied him for the meeting. We pulled him away a moment before he bit the lady.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Do they (or does anyone) know what his training protocol is? I find the website's lack of specifics concerning.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Hi, ok I talked this over with the rescue president. She advises me to visit the facility unannounced to see where Mandy would be staying and take that opportunity to talk with them about their training in more detail. That is the first step. 

My next biggest concern is I don't want her going anywhere unspayed. It's just too risky. She knows where home is now but won't know if she got away from them on another side of town. She has a spay appointment on July 31st. The vp of the rescue is going to come up and help me get Mandy's premier collar on and get a leash on her. I may have to set up a crate for Mandy to stay in temporarily so I can get her used to me attaching the leash to her collar. She did walk on leash with me a couple times when she first came to my house but has since been too quick at avoiding me handling her. And her collar is way too loose now for leash walking safely.

In the meantime, I'll try to get with a communicator. IF I do the in-house training, it will only be after she is spayed and if I approve of his methods after getting more details. 

This makes my gut feel better to have this sort of a plan. This is a plan that Mandy can live with and shouldn't cause permanent trauma. Leaving her with a man she doesn't know could be the most wrong thing in the world to do. I would feel like I was letting her down. Does this sound better to you?

I really appreciate ALL of you.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Yes! This sounds like a plan. Glad your gut feels better - that's always a good sign! I think if you're going to traumatize Mandy by moving her, taking her to the vet to be spayed is more important than the training place anyway. You don't want her going into heat again and possibly escaping. 

In addition to dropping in unannounced, I'd ask them to explain their method to you. I think this can be done in a non-confrontational way "that sounds interesting. Tell me more! What would you do about such and such?" sort of thing. I'd also observe some training sessions as they work with other dogs and, if it gets to that point, watch them work with Mandy. Any experienced trainer worth their salt isn't going to mind an audience.


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I read through the entire webpage for the trainers and I have to say that I'm really glad you're choosing to not send her away to these guys at this time.

Their "resource articles" are mostly just technical babble (not all accurate, in my opinion) and give very little information. After reading every article I'm still not sure what they'd do to Mandy, and whether or not they would be kind or overwhelming or what. They keep saying that food is a bribe - and anyone who knows the concepts of behaviorism and how to use rewards properly knows perfectly well how to use food without having it be a "bribe". That alone tells me that these guys don't really know as much about dog behavior as they try to make you believe.

In addition, the photo they use on their "What We Do" page bothers me a lot. That dog looks stressed. The eyes, ears and body position show tension. For trainers who talk about "emotional manipulation" to use a photo that shows a dog being stressed concerns me. If they use stress to manipulate a dog into complying, I think that Mandy will be far worse off when you get her back than she is right now. She doesn't need flooded. She may need pushed a bit to get her to understand that she CAN deal with some stress, but the amount of stress she would be in just going to this place would be overwhelming (let alone anything they would do to her).

If you get a leash on her, and start actually handling her some so that she learns that your touch is a GOOD thing, I think you will be well on the way to working through some of her fear. Right now she still has escape options and so she has no reason to accept your touch. With a leash on her, she will have no options other than to learn to deal with it, and if the touching is always gentle and kind then she should eventually accept it. But drugging her and sending her away to deal with a male trainer who may or may not have the patience YOU have shown would be detrimental, I think.

If you can find someone who would work with you instead of thinking that Mandy needs to be taken away, I think you'd be much happier (and she would too). You've come so far and I would hate to see a regression at this point.

Good luck to you, and I'm really glad to see the updates!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## Maedchen

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Christi,
is there a certain reason, why Mandi can't stay upstairs with you and the other dogs, now that her pups are weaned? I think you'd be a lot more successful, if she would just be integrated into the household and watch how the other dogs constantly interact with you etc. She'll learn so much, just by observing the others.

It will also be helpful to put her on flower remedies to help cope with her past and help her to gain trust and give her more confidence. Instead of buying indiv. essences ($$), you can go to 
Anaflora - and get a mixed remedy spec. for her. The woman also does animal communication.

Mandi looks like a kind girl -and while I believe she needs to be pushed a bit more (by living upstairs and being exposed to you and family constantly), I don't think sending her away for training will be a good idea for her- atleast not yet.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I have not checked on this thread in a few days and I am no expert on anything like this. I appluad your efforts on Mandy's behalf because I could not do that. 

My gut feeling before even reading the great threads by a few others with a lot of experience would be to NOT LET HER GO THERE! And I have not read the website yet. I plan to. I have never liked send away training especially when they promise results in 7 to 10 days and especially with a dog like Mandy that you have months invested in. 

Go check him out in person first. I lke the suggestion of integrating her into the upstairs pack too.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

If you are having a hard time getting hold of her collar to attach a leash - for get the collar.

Buy a slip leash:










Just open it REALLY wide and sort of lasso her. Once it's over her head you can slide the brake down the leash so it can't loosen.

Another way to use this leash is to make the big loop and hold it up, then use treats to get the dogs to lean their head through the loop.

Another thing I would ask from the training place - references. Find out when people normally come pick up their dogs and visit at theat time to see how people react.

Tell them you want to know EXACTLY how they are going to work the dog. What techniques - in plain english - do they use. IF they can't (or won't) explain - I'd write them off.


----------



## RebelGSD

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I suggest that you - with some help - get a collar&leash on her and let her drag the leash around. I would start a walk routine with her, short initially and then increasing in length - for bonding and interaction. If she is dragging the leash around, it will be easier to get hold of her. A rescue friend had a very difficult dominant shy dog. for two months he would walk in front of her but facing her, essentially he was walking backwards for two months. He was a flight risk and had to wear a choker (the dog would chew fabric and leather leashes and collars). The walks helped a little.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Penny (VP of GSRCA) came today. She had a martingale collar and leash on Mandy in about 10 minutes. No force, not much stress. I honestly couldn't believe my eyes. Mandy is now in a crate. She believes (and I do too, somewhat) that Mandy learned she could control the situation by avoiding contact with me. And that I have been too sympathetic, to the point of allowing her to get away with it. 

At first Mandy darted and dashed around Penny. When Mandy went into the puppy pen, Penny followed and closed the door behind her. I had set up a crate in there this AM with a soft blanket. Mandy got in the corner and Penny approached her confidently and slowly yet it seemed to take no time at all. She got down on Mandy's level. Let Mandy sniff her a time or two, talked to her and them put a slip lead around her neck. Then, the martingale, then the leash. Then just sat petting her and talking to her for a few minutes. Then she gave the leash to me and I did the same, got down in the floor and started talking to her and petting her. 

She tried to bolt when walking on the leash but eventually succumbed to that too. Was she stressed? I am sure she was but she did not defecate all over the place. Her mouth was open most of the time and her ears up. 

I do feel sorry for Mandy that her freedom is taken away but Penny said its time I give her the push she needs, even if it's not exactly pleasant initially. She thinks within a week or so, that I may have Mandy comfortable enough to take her for a walk outside in the grass. 

It felt really good to pet her after all these months. I hope we did the right thing. I think getting her upstairs with my pack is the next step. Maybe I can get her inside after her spay. Penny said to keep as many things in their normal routine as possible, even though she's crated.


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Good news!



> Originally Posted By: Christi....And that I have been too sympathetic, to the point of allowing her to get away with it. ....
> 
> I do feel sorry for Mandy that her freedom is taken away ...


I think the second sentence affirms what Penny said in the first one. Look at these statements and step back. What freedom? and quit the "feel sorry" stuff too I guess. I think we have all played into Mandy's "poor puppy" routine for too long. That is saying that I think the board as a whole, including those of us that just watched, encouraged this and it didn't do Mandy what she really needed. This just reminds us all that this is a forum that isn't hands on, that doesn't see the interaction first hand. I'm so glad that someone was able to come in and help with her in person! 
It looks like you and Mandy are on your way again and thats a good thing.


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Yay! You are over the biggest bump. I remember reading how not to play into the sympathies of the rescue's background/or abusive past. Look forward and not back. So pretend you know nothing about Mandy now, except she is a foster you are re-habbing for a forever home(maybe yours?)


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Oh Chris, I am sorry..... That Mandy is one smart girl. She had your number. Now she will just have to adjust. There was no growling or snapping. She is ready.

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

Yep, she's ready and yes she had my number. She's been smiling at me for quite some time as she has been dodging me, hiding behind Maxx. I mean I could literally see the smile. 

I joined the shy dogs group on yahoo and am just lurking at this point. I am looking at the flower essences as being a good thing, too. And possibly the communicator on the Anaflora site. It's so hard to know who to contact when its something sort of intangeable like telepathy. 

We are going to overcome this. I am learning as much about shy dogs as Mandy is about trusting people. It's a two way street. I'll probably always "feel" for her but a little discomfort for us both will do us good.


----------



## pupresq

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

This is the kind of tough love and push that can be just what a foster dog needs. I totally believe in this! My foster dogs get crate trained, they get leashed, they have rules they are expected to learn and stick to. My feral dog has been a little different because for a long time, I literally could not get my hands on her, but after the first few weeks even she had to stay in a crate and x-pen whenever there were no people around. People around = fun times! No people around = boring. I'm not into flooding as a wholesale technique but when I'm working with a fearful dog, I do like to do something that pushes their comfort zone at least once a week - in Pixie's case that might be holding her for 20 minutes, or putting a harness on her and letting her feel the drag of a leash. She didn't like that stuff but I always saw a little bump in her comfort level after that. It was like "oh, this happened, and I didn't die! I guess maybe I can handle a little more contact than I thought I could."

I've no doubt that you are absolutely right - Mandi has been self-reinforcing her behavior. She does what she does, you leave her alone, her stress level decreases. And when she was dealing with motherhood and all that, it was probably good for her to have some sense of being able to keep herself safe. 

But now I think you're on a good track! You've seen that she _can_ do more than you thought and stressing her some in this manner is okay. It's not the same thing as potentially rough handling or the trauma of suddenly being in a new place with no familiar people. 

ETA


> Quote:We are going to overcome this. I am learning as much about shy dogs as Mandy is about trusting people. It's a two way street. I'll probably always "feel" for her but a little discomfort for us both will do us good.


EXACTLY!







I can't tell you how much I've learned from each "problem" dog, probably way more than they learned from me! We only learn by doing this stuff. I'm glad she has you!


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I think this is a wonderful step, but I also don't think that giving Mandy the time she needed to understand that the situation was safe wasn't a problem either. Even if she learned that avoiding you meant you left her alone, she had been through some horrendous experiences in her life and maybe she needed some "hands-off" time. I fully expect that you'll progress forward just fine. She needed kindness and acceptance of her fears, she got it. Now that the fears have diminished, it's time to provide her with the knowledge that she CAN be handled.

If she'd been pushed too early it could have been devastating.

I'm REALLY glad to hear that there was no aggression in her even when she got cornered. That is just a wonderful thing! Fear can be dealt with much easier if the dog has a high level of inhibition when it comes to aggression. And you're absolutely right about what you will learn from this experience. When I got Tori, who was the most fearful dog I'd ever seen, I at first thought "OMG, this was such a huge mistake!". And yet later on I realized that the experience had expanded my knowledge so much in a way that I could never get from just reading or hearing of other shy dogs. I had to LIVE with it day in and day out, and learned so many techniques that I'd never had to use with my other dogs. It made me a better trainer and a better owner. While I don't particularly want to run out and get another really fearful dog .. *L* .. I am truly thankful that I've had the experience.

Looking forward to more updates as things progress!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestI think this is a wonderful step, but I also don't think that giving Mandy the time she needed to understand that the situation was safe wasn't a problem either. Even if she learned that avoiding you meant you left her alone, she had been through some horrendous experiences in her life and maybe she needed some "hands-off" time. I fully expect that you'll progress forward just fine. She needed kindness and acceptance of her fears, she got it. Now that the fears have diminished, it's time to provide her with the knowledge that she CAN be handled.
> 
> If she'd been pushed too early it could have been devastating.


Totally agree with this. It's easy to say that yeah, that shoulda gone quicker when you're not the one the dog is pooping in response to when you make a move toward them!







Also, my belief is that there is a chemical component to the fear that has to leave the body before any meaningful change can occur-and if you keep adding more to that stress cocktail-instead of letting it leech out slowly-you just keep that stress cycle going. 

In Anna's first thread, Karen (first foster) found that increased leader behavior decreased Anna's nervousness. Because Anna was able to be in with my dogs right off the bat, it was easy for me to do it because I had to in front of her-or else my dogs would have had me in a crate and they would have been cooking in the kitchen! 

So I think when she is with your dogs, watching you as a normal person interacting with them, leading them she will have a little "a-ha moment." A lot of what I did with my dogs helped to enable her trust in me. It also taught me to be calmer, kinder, and more positive with them because if I used my demon voice as a short cut to better behavior, she would get nervous. 

Is she liking the crate? 

Just make sure that no one opens doors willy nilly when she is upstairs. I won't let anyone open my front or side doors-I will put a prop against them so they can't just because there is no fencing opening up to those doors. Paranoid? YEP! But people forget and I am not going to have an accident if I can help it. 

SO glad you didn't do the send away training. I also saw the nervous looking dog and read the blah blah blah (wow-I didn't understand a lot of it-master's in counseling psych here-it was just talking in circles). You can never go wrong with patience.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN Is she liking the crate?


I think it's ok. She's always lying in there relaxed, with mouth open, ears up. It's not as big as I would like but for right now it will have to do. She's had two "sessions" this AM with handling and going out on the leash. If the crate was any bigger she'd be able to back pretty far out of reach. And she's made a couple of good efforts at dashing toward me before I got the leash on, but fortunately she sees the futility in that after one attempt. No signs of aggression but she's still uncomfortable with touch as evidenced by crouching down and trying to pull away. As far as walking on the leash she's not bolting like she was yesterday. Maxx is still with her for comfort. After our second petting session and I led her back to the crate, once inside and the door shut, I put a spoonful of canned food dog down. Something that she is used to because I have been adding it to her kibble to try to get a little weight on her. She didn't eat it immediately but did within about an hour (in my absence, of course). I hope to progress to the point of click/treat eventually. 

Oh, this AM she had eaten all her food from last night and did not pee in the crate but there was some solid potty in there. She peed outside on leash this AM with just a little encouragement.


----------



## RebelGSD

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I wonder is she is in a good enough shape for hand-feeding. I bet she would eat smelly-yummy stuff from your hand if she were hungry enough.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy update - July 2*

I have dogs that prefer to eat at night or when I am not around. I think some of it comes from being in a kennel enviornment, they just aren't use to having someone around all the, they take treats just fine, but total hand feeding would not work with my dogs.

I think that is great progress. Mandy will figure out not to mess in her crate, if she didn't pee then she will figure out not to poop in her crate also.

More progress that is a good thing.

Val


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 18th*

I won't say she's progressing rapidly but I see progression. Tonight I saw the biggest stride yet. On a loose leash, she let me pet her without trying to get away from me. TWICE. Mind you she still crouches down like she's afraid to look or afraid something bad will happen, but I am not complaining. I am thrilled!! AND tonight she ate her food while I was still in the basement. I wasn't watching her, just going about my business but she's relaxed enough to eat. AND in between these two events - the petting and the eating - she spooked herself something awful with the leash. She heard the dogs playing upstairs and I guess thought the bad man was coming. She twisted around got tangled up, pooped, got real twitterpated for about 3 minutes. I didn't react, just told her it was nothing and she soon slowed the pacing. 

Just wanted to shout HOORAY!! and tell someone!


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## Barb E

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 18th*









Sounds like a very good night!!!


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 18th*

Chris that is great. I don't we should expect her to just come popping out of her shell, any progress is going in the right direction. There are going to be ups and downs. She may have little fright spells for the rest of her life, hopefully they will get to the point where she isn't pooping.

Val


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## Qyn

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 18th*

Great strides in the first 15 pages of this thread and massive strides in the last 3 pages. Kudos to Christi for allowing Mandy to get to the point that these improvements were possible.

There has been a lot of heartache, compromises and caring - all of which have allowed this dog enough confidence to both set boundaries and now relax them. I have followed this from the beginning and I am glad to see that Mandy is beginning to blossom - any step beyond this is truly magical.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 22th*

Today Mandy felt the grass between her toes for the first time since February. On leash of course. She is a magnificently beautiful dog. I wish you could have seen her gait and stance. But more importantly the sparkle in her eyes!! I could have cried. No crouching and she came up to willingly sniff me. We didn't do a petting exercise outside since it was her first time out. Just walked on leash and sat in the grass with Maxx and Merci. Next time out, I'll introduce touching as being ok outside as well as in. Hope to soon get a picture of her. Wow, she is a beauty!


----------



## kelso

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 22th*

I have not really posted on this thread, but have been reading it all along.
so great to hear she has felt some grass between her feet!
She looks beautiful in the pictures you have posted thus far, can't wait to see more!









Congrats on a good day, hope there is many more to come


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 22th*

WOW for Mandy and Chris. I bet she just enjoyed being outside. 

Val


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 22th*

Well, here's a thought - any chance that a lot of her issues are with being indoors? Like maybe she was not "supposed" to be indoors in the past? Was punished for it?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 22th*

Ok, I know I keep posting... Today we were walking outside, trying to go further distances and letting her see the property. Mind you we are still taking it quite slow. The other dogs in the fence saw her and starting barking like it was an intruding dog and it scared her. She initially did her bolting thing but as I spoke with her, she settled and continued to walk with me. She walked close to me rather than on the end of the lead as far away as she could get. I take that as another good sign. Does she see me as her leader? her comforter? her protector? I hope so. 

To Middleofnowhere... I think your point is a good one to ponder. I would venture to say she was always outside and probably on a tie out or chain at that but there is not that much difference in her inside/outside behavior when it comes to touch, but I'll pay more attention. She's doing very well crated with three-four outings and touch sessions a day.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 22th*










I missed some updates and need to really read these over again but had to say that I am so happy to read all this good stuff! 

Did I show you that I started a post in general rescue about deeply fearful dogs and linked to this thread? Well, I did.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 22th*

Chris, those are all good signs. I take her walking close to you as accepting your leadership/protection from things that scared her. 

Little steps that continue to build is great progress. Kinda like the turtle and hare thing, slow and easy wins the race.


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Mandy PROGRESS report - July 22th*

WDJ 8/2008 has an article "Trials of the Timid" which might be useful.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy TIS THE SEASON- July 25th*

It's me again... I saw two drops of blood today. And Maxx thinks she's dabbed on a new perfume! He's neutered. All my boys are except Blaze (2 months old) and I don't think he quite has it in him yet. 

My gut instincts tells me not to chance even taking her out to the vet clinic next Thursday while she is in heat. Hormonally she'll be keyed up and if she escapes them... more puppies... if we catch her again. 

I have been detecting some subtle changes lately and believe its hormonal. 

Asking for opinions - Should I postpone the spay one month to ensure the cycle is over and hormones have waned?


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy TIS THE SEASON- July 25th*

Chris, I would spay a female in season. There is an increased risk with the uterus having more blood in it. Also with some females on a normal spay there is an adjustment time for them to get use to a new hormone balance. As long as you are vigilant and keep her safe I would wait. 

Val


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy TIS THE SEASON- July 25th*

We always recommended waiting until the dog is out of heat before spaying. The spay is a more difficult procedure when the uterus is engorged with blood and so there would be a larger incision site. In addition, spaying her doesn't immediately stop her hormones and she can continue to attract dogs even though the uterus and ovaries are removed. If she were to get tied with a male right after this surgery, she could potentially hurt herself.

So if you can wait until after she's well out of season, I think it would be easier on everyone.

My chow just came out of heat and my Mom's neutered male shepherd stayed here while Mom went to Mexico.  I'd never seen Khana act quite so "hussy-like" .. *L* .. she LOVED on him and he really had no interest in her. It's the first time I've had a female in heat who changed in behavior at all.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy TIS THE SEASON- July 25th*

Oh Gosh, some times I am in such a rush I don't read my posts. I would not do a routine spay while the dog is in season. I might do an early spay termination on a unwanted breeding, it would depend on a few things, but it could be a possibility in my mind.

Chris I know you will be very careful with her as far as her having access to intact males. So if Mandy was in my care we would just wait until she is out of season and the hormones have all settled back down before she would get spayed.

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy TIS THE SEASON- July 25th*

Thanks All! And Val, I knew you'd help me see what you meant in your previous post. <g>I do that sometimes too. My fingers don't type what my brain is telling them to. I almost feel silly even asking others for an opinion on something so remedial as spaying in season. We have no intact males at this house (except a two month old) and unless she busted out of her crate and out of the fence there is no way she'd get loose. She's not tried to chew at the leash at all. I got a horse lead just in case. Thanks again!!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Outside pictures. She's still afraid but you can see how beautiful she is. 



















We were doing so well on the leash I thought I'd get some updated pictures. I slipped the camera in my pocket and after she did her business I pulled it out casually and IT FREAKED HER OUT! Story has it her former owner threatened to shoot her but with her reaction to the camera I think he may have aimed it at her and terrorized her with it. And I am beginining to realize that she was abused with objects. When the camera is on the ground, it's not a big deal. In my hands, she is totally fear struck. It makes me want to cry. 

But we are still hanging in there together. I cancelled her spay surgery today. Tentatively rescheduled for the first week in September.


----------



## SunCzarina

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

She's so beautiful. It horrifies me that anyone could do that to such a pretty face.


----------



## melonyjhsn

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Still keeping up with the two of you.







She sure is beautiful! Keep up the good work.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Chris she is a beauty. Have you thought or checked into the Animal Communicator, I have never used one but some people have told me that it worked really well for a problem dog. Maybe if she can communicate to the person what happened, then you could understand more of her quirks.

My or my, her eyes are very soulful, she is trying to trust you, she just has a lot of bad stuff in her past and she just isn't sure yet. You are doing great, it's just some of these gals put up these walls that protect their heart and sole, her sole was crushed by a person she trusted abusing her. So she isn't sure she wants to let anyone get that close to her again. I think you are close to gaining more ground.

Val


----------



## Fee

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

She is absolutely stunning!!! Brakes my heart anyone abusing her. Such a lovely face! Best wishes to the two of you and thank you for all you are doing for her!


----------



## BrennasMom

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

She is such a gorgeous dog. I just got caught up on the thread a couple days ago...It breaks my heart to think day to day items and events cause her such fear.







She is lucky to have you working with her. I know she'll improve slowly but surely.

Maybe you can desensitize her to the camera and other objects by giving her treats when you have something in your hand.


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Mandy looks like a twin to Onyx! My girl Kacie has suddenly show a fear of the camera, and hi-tails it when I try to get her pic, I think the flash freaked her out about three weeks ago(she is thunderstorm scared) Mandy has come along way over the Summer, thank you for the pics, I hope to see more of her!


----------



## kelso

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

i agree, she is beautiful! I hope to see more pictures as well as she gains trust and confidence! looks like you are doing very well with her. congrats to yourself and Ms. Mandy







Hope things continue to progress with you guys.

she looks a lot like our Allie too


----------



## Mom2Sam

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Mandy is such a beautiful girl! I haven't been on here reading your updates for sometime. I was actually the one that asked about her puppies and I am so sorry for the loss of two of them. That must have been so heartbreaking and devastating to find. Just wanted to give you more encouragement and tell you to keep up the good work!


----------



## Qyn

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Wow, she is stunning! When I read her story, I did not picture her looking like that. I pictured a more stocky rottweiler looking dog for some reason. I still wish both (my mind image and the actual dog) all the best. Alison


----------



## Maedchen

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

She's stunning! Gorgeous coat!

I don't think her owner terrorized her with a camera, but she was certainly hit with a stick & thrown objects at and cursed at. I believe she'll always be a little spooky, but if you keep up exposing her to all kinds of stuff in a good way, she'll get better. 







to both of you


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Any updates on Mandy's progress? Begging for more pic's too)


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Well, we have not braved the big bad camera again. Right now we are just being extra, extra cautious on all fronts. She's right at the prime in her heat cycle. (Just ask Maxx) and we are not doing anything that could frighten her. She's strong, real strong. I am stronger but I'd hate for her to catch me off guard right now and get away. 

She's doing really well, though, I think. I see improvements daily, little ones. And little set backs too. We are working through all of them. Today I just laid on the grass holding her leash and I felt her touch my hand. She also is not staying behind me quite so much. She keeps coming around to check out my face. And sometimes she'll even walk right beside me on leash. Usually this is when we are going back inside.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

Chris that is great, ever greater if you take into consideration that she is in heat and some females can get a little jumpy, uncertain, or just down right bitchy.

I think the little ups and downs are to be expected. Heavens I have ups and downs with pups that don't have the even 1/100th of Mandy's history.

That is so neat that she touched you, that was a big step for her even if she was just trying to smell you. I like the sound that she is making more eye contact with you. 

Thank you for the Update.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy - New Pictures July 28th*

I think Mandy will be a rescue failure.......









She is gorgeous, looks like my Kayos.


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

Me again... Mandy growled twice at the puppies for coming near her food tonight. I did put some canned EVO on it and maybe that is all it is. But her eyes got hard with me when I approached to see what was going on. It surprised me. 

The last couple of days I have noticed she looked depressed. I felt her heat was pretty much over, according to Maxx so he's been downstairs with her. She may have brightened up a little with him there but not too much. 

Since I am known to pull worries out of thin air, I thought I'd try this one out on yall first. How would I know if she's in a false pregnancy? Or is this just normal for a dog going out of season that didn't get mated, to be emotionally low or on edge?


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

Chris, it can be hard to say. All females seem to be a bit different. I didn't go back and read, but when did she come into season? Most of my gals were really bitchy coming in and pretty mellow going out. Food or exceptional food may always be an issue with her and I don't think she has figured out where she belongs in the pack, except that the puppies aren't going to take food away from her. A snarl or growl at youngersters messing with the older dogs food is a pretty normal pack communication, as long as she just warned and didn't just spring and attack the pups, that to me is normal communication.

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

Ok, she's herself today, I think. Just me over-mothering again. I certainly hope she gets adopted at some point but I do think it's probably really unlikely. Her spay appointment is Sept 4th. We have been walking to the car, I am opening the door and Maxx is showing her how to jump in. She also walked up the front steps and back down with NO coaxing. There was absolutely no distractions at the time. Once she recovers from her spay, I want to try to let her live upstairs with us for a while. If it keys her up more ( I hope it doesn't) then she'll have to live downstairs again when she gets her heartworm treatment.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

Sounds like she's making good progress. And thank goodness for Max, huh? 

Any luck getting her puppies adopted?


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

Nope, no luck at all. They are getting so big. They are so houndy, too. I have some prospects though and a friend that does New England transports. That may be their only option. It's a last resort but they deserve individual homes. Dogs like them are a dime a dozen here in AL.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

People like hounds up here. Yesterday I was talking to some neighbors who have a hound/lab mix. They said they looked and looked for that exact mix and it took a while but they finally found one. My neighborhood is full of mutts, actually, and most of them are from down south. Our SPCA sends the Rescue Waggin down to pick up dogs in OH, IN and KY because we don't have too many strays up here! 

So if you can get them up north I bet they'll get adopted, no problem! 

As for Mandy, she might be adoptable some day but it sounds like it will be a while yet. You're doing a great job though!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

Mandys spay is this Thursday. Wish us luck.


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

Good luck to Mandy AND to you! Hopefully she will want to cuddle and will ask for more contact with you during this. All of my girls have wanted hugs after they were spayed .. *L* .. but of course, Mandy doesn't really understand the concept of hugs.

Keep us posted - I check back in this forum often to see if you've posted again!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

I will be thinking about you and Mandy. 

Chris I try to say positive, but with the spay surgery you may see a set back for a while with Mandy. I just want to give you a heads up. It seems that some females have a harder time adjusting to the new hormone level in their body, they can be really spooky, aggressive to other dogs, or a lot out of sorts in dealing with humans.

I hope that Mandy has none of that, like I said I just wanted to give you a heads up.

Val


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: Mandy - August 21*

How did Mandy do with her spay? Hope things are going well in the recovery!


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - Sept 4*

I appreciate that heads up Val. 

If anything would go according to plan for me, I would be suprised. *We are rescheduled for the 25th.* Someone hit me and totalled my car. The next day my toilet overflowed, running into my A/C vent, filling the ducts with water. I had to have the septic tank dug out and cleaned and the duct work replaced and today I am hopefully buying a new car.


----------



## SunCzarina

*Re: Mandy - Sept 4*

Oh no, bad things come in 3s don't they. Hope Mandy is doing well and everything works out with the tank (yuck, my parents had a septic tank)


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy - Sept 4*

Wow Chris. I hope you are OK.

SunCzarina, sewage is sewage whether you have a septic tank or city sewer. If and when it backs up, it backs up. I know people who have problems with the City sewage backing up into their basements. 

Val


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy - Sept 4*

Hoping the best and glad you were not hurt in the accident. I lived on septic for years and never had an issue but as Val says sewage is sewage!


----------



## Ilovealldogs

*Re: Mandy - Sept 4*

Sorry to hear about your bad luck.







I know you don't want to freak Mandy out, but whenever it is a good time, please post some more pictures of her. She is beautiful!







I'd also like to see pics of the pups since they're so big now. I applaud you for all your efforts!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy - Sept 4*

Chris, I wonder how things are going? Did you get Mandy in for her spay. I know you are probably busy or don't have power, jsut thought I would check in.

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - Sept 20*

Spay day is Thursday the 25th. 

We are doing ok. Her routine has been upset a little bit and I think she's pouting with me. Last weekend I had to leave her in my husbands care. ... which I am grateful that she didn't get away from him, but that is all I can say. She was miserable and I was too, but I had a long transport to do and it was very important. 

I took her pups (and 29 other dogs) to a New Hampshire shelter (Nashua) over the weekend on a transport. Screech has already been adopted!! On the way home, going through VA a man came up to our van while we were at a gas pump and gave us his gsd. Of all the freaky things to happen. Of course the van said 'Going the distance to save lives' and it had the humane societys name on it. But still, he gave his dog to a total stranger. Tripp, the dog, came home with me Sunday evening and went into a crate in the basement with Mandy. He was somewhat loud, being only a 10 month old pup, himself. 

Roxie got adopted Wednesday AM, that was the pup that hung out with her and Maxx downstairs. 

I brought in a new female foster on Wed PM and Tripp went to another foster home. It's been a bit of a revolving door here and I think Mandy's wondering whats in store for her. Things are stabiilzing again, though. 

Still the goal is once Mandy is over her spay, to get her upstairs with me in the house. I hope this is when she had her turning point. It's going to be interesting.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy - Sept 20*

Chris I think it is good she is a little miffed at you, that means that she is getting more comfortable with you and the routine. If she wasn't she would still be her old self that the only thing that mattered was someone brought her food and water.

Wow that had to be a noisy transport. 

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy - Sept 20*

Actually it wasn't so bad. The dog right behind us wanted a bite of everything we had to eat and would whine pitifully til he got it. There is no dividing window so the dogs can get the AC, too. Then one little chihuahua mix got his barker on about halfway through the trip and he was quite noisy. If Kristi didn't have to go to work Monday I would have loved to taken my time getting home. It's my first time leaving the south.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy - Sept 20*

Well know know I want reports on how Missy Mandy is doing. She is a very interesting case and I am glad that you keep us updated. Hint a few pictures now and then don't hurt.. LOL

Val


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy - Sept 20*

Best of luck to Mandi on her surgery this week - hope you are all recovered from your bad luck! What a tough time you've gone through and yet you just continue to make time for dogs in need. You're a role model!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy spayed!! - Sept 25th*

SHE DID IT!! I am so very proud of my girl and my vet (and tech) were just so awesome to accommodate us they way they did. 

After much consulting with them yesterday, they told me to bring her in about 10 AM and she should be ready to go right to surgery. Getting her in the car to go to the vet was by far the hardest part of it all, but was not nearly as bad as I anticipated. 

I had the car backed up and opened and took a couple deep breaths before I got started. She's so observant. She knew this was not an ordinary potty walk. I saw her glance at the car (not in it's usual place) and the uh oh in her eyes. As we got closer to it she started to panic and I just held on for dear life and kept my soothing calm voice going. She spins and circles and it makes me so dizzy. But I held on without pulling her too much. But it became obvious I was going to need to point her in the right direction so I pulled up on the leash/collar and she hopped right in. 

My new car has the handy little steel loops where you can snap something to it. I used a clip and snapped Mandy's lead to it. It was the best move I made cause when I opened the door at the vet she flew out, but because she was clipped, didn't get far. 

She was really relaxed for the ride. Mouth open, sitting up, watching. Pupils were as big as saucers but there was very little deficating or panicking once in the car. 

Since today was surgery day, there were no other clients. When they were ready, I got her out of the car and she walked right through the open door of the clinic and into the exam room. I did muzzle her for safety once inside. I did. She didn't get that mean look either. Just confused. Once muzzled, they got a vein and drew blood, then put out the lights. She was so relaxed so quickly. She got a nail trim, fecal, exam before surgery. They were a bit concerned as to how she might wake up from anesthesia but they said she woke up calmly. Eyes were wide open and she looked confused but didn't act out. 

They let me take her home today which is not something they ordinarily do but I am so glad they did. They caged her, not kenneled her, just as I requested. I walked back, clipped her lead on and out we went. She hopped right into my car without getting upset or overly fearful. She was glad to be home. She pottied and is not resting in her crate. 

Bless her heart, she did it! I am so proud of her. I hate that this was her first outing since I had her but I guess I was afraid I would traumatize her with a car ride before this all important one. Now I feel more confident that we might can venture out a little bit at a time.


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: Mandy spayed!! - Sept 25th*

Yaah! I bet that your time with her during her recovery will really help your relationship. At least now, you can relax knowing no more pups for her. Good thoughts for a speedy recovery, Mandy


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy spayed!! - Sept 25th*

Yea Chris, I am so glad she did well. See how much progress you have made. That is so good. I am so proud of both of you. Now you don't have to worry about those heat cycles any more. The plus is that when they are gone for the Day at the Vet, coming home is great, they seem to appreciated things just a bit more.

Val


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy spayed!! - Sept 25th*

Oh what a good day!!! I have been thinking about Mandy!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy spayed!! - Sept 25th*

Bump, Chris how are things going with Mandy???? Update needed, please.......

Val


----------



## gretasgifttome

*Mandy Update - November 25th*

I just want to tell you how pleased I am with our tiny baby steps forward. She's comes to the front of the crate, sniffs my hand, but does go to the back for the leash snapping on, however sits, doesn't cowers. 

The past two mornings I have been getting tail wags, not so much happy-to-see you, but anxious-to-go-out. And some whimpers of excitement. It's not much, but it's emotion. And positive emotion. 

I think the daily walks help her tremendously. We walk my 2 acre field daily. I started it just to put some muscle mass on her frame, but I think it's helped her mood the most. And she seems to look forward to it. Several days ago we took our walk with Merci and Maxx. They were off leash. She didn't try to bolt when I interacted with them. I could pick up the frisbee, throw it, take it out of Merci's mouth, etc and Mandy was just a bystander. When walking she will come all the way up to my right leg. I can actually reach and scratch her chin but I don't do that often since she just started doing this consistently. The other dogs in the fence bark but we just walk past them anyway. We ignore them. If I yelled at them, she would freak. 

We do petting exercises in the crate daily. And I brush her a little. I can touch the tail, the forelegs, the belly, ears and I even got inside her lips the other day. All is done very nonchalant, not like an exam. 

As a new order in our routine, I am trying to get her to see that the great big outdoors is ok on leash with her standing still. I sit at the table and let her look at things, sniff the ground, etc. She's quivery but she looks about and is not just fixated on me as if I am going to do something to her. She seems to like the walks cause she's moving and she doesn't feel focussed on so standing out in the open is challange for her. I glance her way and she glances my way quite often, too. She's still not real treat motivated so treats are not part of our work so much as they are a gift afterwards (which she still eats in her on private time). She did however once start eating dinner at the same time as Niki/Scarlett with me present. 

Niki and Scarlett are two retired breeders we rescued. They had never been socialized, only let inside the breeders house to whelp. Their life consisted of a 12 x 24 dirt pen for 5 years, with minimal interaction since their owner became disabled. Scarlett had never even been for a car ride before. Anyway, it's very comical downstairs because they are into everything, experiencing puppyhood with toys and attention while living indoors. My interacting with them has helped Mandy. And they keep Mandy entertained in my absence. 

Anyway, Mandy's just amazing and I love her to pieces. Just wanted you to know.


----------



## kshort

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

I was just thinking about Mandy yesterday and wondering how she was doing. Chris, I think she's made tremendous progress! You obviously can read her very well and it sounds like you're doing everything right to try and help her. They may seem like baby steps to you, but from an outsider reading this, I think the steps are gigantic. Thank you so much for having the patience to make Mandy's life what it is today. And it can only get better!


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Chris, Thank you so much for checking in I was wondering how Mandy was doing. 

I remember having a post with Jean I believe it was about Anna. Anna didn't want to make eye contact, but started the little sneak peaks, then alwhile after that she opened up. So sneak peaks with Mandy are a good thing. I am glad she likes her walks. Oh and company to keep her entertained... Yea.

Val


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Wow it sounds as if she is really coming along.
Slow but steady wins the reace!!


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Thanks for the update! I think about Mandy a lot! It sounds like you have a great routine and are taking things at her pace. She sounds like she's making wonderful progress. I agree with the power of walks--when we rescued Basu he was a mess and long (1-2 hours), daily walks made a HUGE difference for him on every level. I think the exercise allowed him to more fully relax inside as well because he was tired. 

The two new dogs sound great too! Do you have any recent pictures?


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## kelso

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Wow, how great it sounds like some very positive things are happening. How awesome that she is coming out of her shell with your love and patience.

And I agree, any recent pics? Does she mind the camera? She is very beautiful from what I recall


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*










Excellent! Those sisters sound funny! Remember on the Waltons-the ones that made the moonshine? That's how I picture those two. AH! Here they are! http://www.the-waltons.com/baldsty.html

Yes-Anna would do sneaky peeks. And now she makes very direct eye contact. I am going to go look for a picture thread and post it here. It is the first time Anna was ever off leash. It was totally by mistake, and I think I pooped my pants, but you can see the progress (yeah, yeah, 4 years, but I never thought she'd get this far) that can happen. Anyway, I was just thinking of this eye contact thing tonight-and this was never something I thought would happen either. But when she comes over to be petted, she looks right at me. And for treats-her eye contact is a little disconcerting.









http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=879812&page=0#Post879812 in addition to her being off leash (and not attached to the other dogs) you can see one where she is looking up at me. 

You and Mandy are doing great!


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent! Those sisters sound funny! Remember on the Waltons-the ones that made the moonshine? That's how I picture those two. AH! Here they are! http://www.the-waltons.com/baldsty.html


 I remember those sisters and yes... they are. Niki appears innocent but something tells me she's just as much to blame as Scarlett for the things that go missing. 

Oh, today when we were walking the field, we disturbed a huge deer in the underbrush. I am so geered to not reacting loudly or afraid around Mandy, I could have pooped my pants! Mandy was a cool as a cucumber. Guess she's much more comfortable with animals that have four legs rather than two.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

I love the pictures!!! My heart jumped out of my chest when I saw that leash not being held by a hand! But she has come so far!! Thank goodness! You know, this may not be for this thread but I wonder if Anna was not conceived by a solid black gsd to a solid white. We got some rescue puppies once that were and they had white/silver ear hairs, between toes and undercoats but were mostly all black.


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## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Very glad to read the update! Sounds like you and Mandy are doing wonderful. Please continue to update us on Mandy's progress - there are probably more people interested than you realize!

You have such a big heart, to take in this girl and to do all the work you've done with her. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## onyx'girl

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

I am one of those whe also thinks of Mandi. I just found this update and am happy that things are progressing! Would love to see more of her, as she is such a beautiful bi-color, is she still camera shy?


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*



> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl is she still camera shy?


 Actually, she's about due for another try at it. Thanks for thinking of her. She's a very special dog.


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

How is she doing????


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Mandi's friends like updates. So Chris how is she doing. Is she going to be a foster faulure... hoping the answer is yes. She has come along so far with you, I hate to see her have a set back or have to try to open up to a new family.

Val


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

I don't see her leaving barring a miraculous recovery from her abuse. Time will tell. 

I forgot to tell you her leash came unclipped. Thank Goodness we were inside and not out. Yes, she had to be cornered for me to reattach the leash but it was not traumatic. It took about 5 minutes. And she COULD have jumped right over me if she had wanted to. 

I guess she trusts me more than any other person in her past. I hope she likes me as much as I like her. 

Today she met Stefani. Me, Maxx, Merci and Stefi walked Mandy in the field. Stefi bristled a little but it's just because she's never been around Mandy. It unnerved Mandy just a tad but when everyone relaxed, it went well. I told Mandy 'good job!' She managed a person and three dogs without panicing.


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## IliamnasQuest

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Every time you post an update I can see the vast improvements that are probably not as visible to you on a day-to-day basis. She just seems to be coming along beautifully! You've done a wonderful job with her and I do hope she is starting to appreciate you more and more. I'm SURE that she's bonded to you probably more than she has with anyone ever and that this experience is a learning experience for her each and every day.

Always glad to see your updates!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Awesome! I love hearing about her progress, you have done such a great job with her.


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Mandy gave me the sweetest Christmas present. When I was opening her crate, she licked my fingers. She did this twice, but hasn't done it since Christmas. 

Debbie Jacobs with the Fearful Dog website http://www.fearfuldogs.com sent Mandy a Christmas package. It was one of her hand made crystal charms. It's to bring positive energy and comfort. I just put it on Mandy with a new martigale collar and her microchip tag. I slipped the microchip in when she was under anesthesia for her spay. 

We wish you all a Wonderful 2009 and thanks for keeping us in your thoughts!


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Mandy Update - November 25th*

Thanks for the update and what a wonderful Christmas present! 

I hope she will allow you to take pictures of her again soon...maybe even outside!









Happy New Year to you, Mandi and the rest of your pack!


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

MANDY PLAYED!







She initiated play behavior with one of my dogs - MAXX - and it went on for several minutes. I glanced rather than watched as she did this because I was crying and didn't want to upset her. Then when the six month old gsd pup - BRU - tried to play and mount her dominantly, she showed him her teeth! HOW APPROPRIATE IS THAT???? 

This just happened. As I am trying to process these events in my mind, I believe that Mandy probably always knew appropriate dog behavior and how to play with her kind but has finally reached a point where she is comfortable enough to exhibit herself in front of me. Could it be the charm? I put it on yesterday AM or the day before? 

I got this picture out in the field yesterday with her, Maxx, Bru and Merci. She wasn't _as afraid _of the camera but didn't care for it. It's not the greatest picture because it was cloudy and her coat is really dull right now. That is why I am brushing her. But she's put on muscle with our daily walks. I started the walks mainly because I was worried the heartworm injections would be too painful without muscle mass. Heartworm treatment will begin when we are done with summertime in Alabama. I had my air condition running half of December!


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Oh Chris. This is what I was waiting for the BIG leap forward. I think dogs like Mandy take so so many little steps some so small that they will go un-noticed, then BANG they do a GIANT step forward.

Yea I am so happy for both of you guys. 

Val


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## onyx'girl

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Yaahh, What a great start to for the New Year! I was just thinking of Mandy and wondering when we would get an update. I missed the posting from last week. Thanks for the pic, too. She looks soo much like Onyx! Happy New Year Christi, Mandi and the rest of the pack


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## kshort

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*



> Quote: I glanced rather than watched as she did this because I was crying and didn't want to upset her.


This really got to me... You must have felt so much joy watching her - what a huge breakthrough! And as for the charm -- who is to say that it didn't make a difference? I don't discount anything and it may very well have been what gave her that little extra boost. Congratulations Chris! She is so beautiful and I know one of these days will show you how much she appreciates everything you've done for her and will return your love a million times over.


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## SunCzarina

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Yay for Mandi remembering how to be a dog!


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## sclark1795

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Chris,

How is Mandy doing? Her story is just so special and the progress she has made is incredable.

Best of luck to you both

Sue


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## onyx'girl

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Yes, update, please????


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

You guys are right we are way past due for a Mandy Update....

Oh Chris....


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## bethandglen

Oh wow! That sucks that she's been abused!! I have never had an abused dog myself but my mom has a rat terrier that she got when he was one year old, he was badly abused by his former owners and exhibited the same type of behavior you are describing. The entire first year she had him he just wouldn't really respond to anyone, and would cower down, especially around men. It broke my heart! But gradually he came to trust all of us and now he is the sweetest little guy! When I go over there he stares at me like he's in love with me, LOL! He gets on my lap and snuggles, he's such a sweetheart. He will still cower at the least little thing, which is really sad, like if you tell him to go outside he'll just go right down on the floor like he expects to be beat. And my mom has had him now for over 5 years. I feel so bad for him because obviously whatever happened to him made a horrible, lifelong impression on this little dog.

Obviously you don't have an entire year for this situation to improve with the pups coming. I guess all you can do is be there if she needs you but go very slowly and let her learn to trust you on her own terms. Maybe your vet could help you with this too. 

I sure hope she gets better, keep us posted on how it goes!

Beth


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## onyx'girl

Mandy & Christi, Come back!!


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## sclark1795

Christi,

Bumping you back up and hoping you and Mandy are around. 
Update pleeze!!

Sue


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## Barb E

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*


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## LuvsDieter

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Update! Update!!


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Hi!!!! Sorry to be away so long. Mandy and I are ok. Lots of babysteps in the improvement department. That last picture I posted I mentioned that her coat was dull and dry... well, 4 months later I finally bit the bullet and got her to the vet. It was yeast. 

But in my efforts to avoid 'traumatizing' her with a vet visit, we got a lot closer to one another. I started brushing, spraying her with dry shampoo, massaging it in, wiping it off, drying her, cutting a toenail or two, even worked up to a soaking wet washcloth bath and thorough drying. IAll this in babysteps but saw her relax and get really ok with the treatment. Never as much as a snarl. 

I tried medications and supplements... every thing I had on hand, but even with minor reprieves she had a big flair up this month and I said, "I give up. You have to see the vet". I did not have the tools to adequately diagnose her at home. She was happy, had a good appetite and had perfect stools, so I know it was not an emergency situation. 

So, last Thursday we went to our vet. I love my vet. She's the one that made special arrangements to spay her so as not to traumatize her. 

Mandy rushed into the vets office in her normal state of panic to new things. We sat in the exam room and in about 5 minutes, she started to ease up. I got lots of questioning looks from her, lots of licks on the hand and once she even put her front feet on the bench to get up in the chair with me!!! 

I muzzled Mandy for the hard stuff and removed the muzzle at the end of our visit. Dr. French in her awesome way, in two hours got blood drawn for heartworm test and thryroid, 4 skin scrapes, a yeast test, nail trim, annual vaccinations and best of all a bath!! Her first bath ever!!! in Maleseb! She's got a low dose prednisone for a week for the itching and ketoconazole. She has nothing contagious and gets to play with Maxx again. She WALKED out of the vets office two hours later quite calmly. She even crawled under the bench at the vets office and took a little nap while Dr. French was talking to me. 

So, this is more of a medical update than anything but she's got the treatment she needs. I took her out with Maxx and Merci Friday and her eyes were very bright to be around her friends again. I am getting a lot more random sniffs than before. She's a very happy girl to see me AM and PM at feeding time, whining and putting paws on her crate in excitement.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Chris, I am so glad you stopped in to give us an update on Mandy. I was really wondering how things were going with you guys. 

It sounds like she has made progress in those little tiny steps but that is great. 

WOW a vet visit and a bath, how wonderful for her and she gets to play with her buddies again.

Chris, you have done a wonderful job with her. Without you and your work she wouldn't have stood a chance.

Sis you get her kids all adopted out?

Val


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## Qyn

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Thanks for the update - she seems to have improved greatly,







to you both.


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## Castlemaid

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

I LOVE Mandy updates! They are soooo inspiring and up-lifting!

Good girl Mandy!!


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## gretasgifttome

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Wow, long time no update!

Mandy's yeast/fungal condition improved right after the meds were started. We kept her on ketaconazole about 3 months, then let her come off it. Just in late September did I notice the itching returning so we went right back to the vet to nip this in the bud. 

I am writing to bragg on her improvement from the last vet visit to the one in April. This weeks visit was almost like a different Mandy. 
For starters, she immediately got in the car, no fuss. She was antsy for part of the ride and I noticed a few days ago that she had chewed the rubber liner in the cargo area, but that is her expression of anxiety. 

A loud vehicle started its engine just as I was getting her out of the car at the vets office, causing her to poop a little but no bolting behavior like I wuold have expected from her. She walked right in the door (and tried to go right back out - typical gsd) but easily went to our exam room after we spoke to the secretary. This Mandy even approached vet tech and vet for sniffs. She paced a bit and kept a watchful eye on me and the door but all in all.... wow! She got her bath and this time there was no struggle. We muzzled her for the bath and skin scrape but I took the muzzle off to dry her. 

On our way home we rode around town looking at the sites and sounds. It helped that she was tired but it was the easiest vet trip we have made to date. 

Mandy is still crated, still leash walked by me twice a day. There are days I get tail wags and other days I don't. I am sure it depends on my mood more than hers. She gets petted and I have even stole a hug and kiss a few times. She's still not a come right over to me dog but she follows me everywhere. I don't get her out as much as I should but I have been fostering puppies this summer and they have used a lot of my time. 

I always thought she'd be a keeper! 

I'll see if I can get pics soon. She is just beautiful!


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## onyx'girl

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

I am glad to hear she is doing well, and still with you! Can't wait for some pics, is she over her camera shyness?


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## Barb E

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Yay an update!!

Just recently I was trying to find this thread to see if there had been an update - you must have been reading my mind! 









So glad to hear it's getting so much better - You've done very well with her!!


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## SunCzarina

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

It has been a while... I was thinking about Mandi the other day and I'm so glad she's doing a little better in her little baby steps.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Chris, it sounds like she is starting to come out of her shell a little more. That is great. Her watching you even from a distance is really good, she has a connection to you even though it isn't physical. Wow the Vet visit sounded like a normal GSD trip to the Vet, not a petrified rescue. Good job to both of you. Mandi has had her defense wall up pretty high when you got her, so the progress you have made is really good.

Val


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

Are there any updates to share????


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## StGeorgeK9

*Re: Caring for an abused dog - 01-01-09 BREAKTHRU*

yes! please, you are my hero, I love this story!


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