# Paranoid about non-breeders



## MarkMulder (Feb 13, 2013)

Hello all, I'll be a first time GSD owner in a few weeks. 

But my concern is this: I'm very paranoid about getting a puppy from a non-breeder. All I've been hearing is horror stories about "every dog that's not from a certified breeder will have hip dysplasia and die." 

I'm not sure who to believe, some of the newborns on craigslist seem to have really healthy/pretty moms and dads and only cost around $300-600. While puppies who are professionally bred cost over $3000+ in my area (Southern California).

I guess I was just hoping for some advice from yall. I just want a good tempered, healthy, purebred GSD puppy, but $3000 is quite a bit of money to pay at once!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anyone who produces a litter of puppies is technically a breeder. You have to decide if you want your puppy to come from a breeder that didn't have a clue what they were doing, a breeder with a wealth of knowledge and experience, or all the other breeders that fall in between those two.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Buying a pup from a reputable breeder can significantly reduce the chance of some kind of genetic problem. Check out this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

Also, you should be able to find a excellent pup around $1,500.00


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can do a lot better than $3000. Show-line puppies from good breeders are often half that. Working line pups are sometimes a little cheaper. But don't go by price alone. You can pay $5000 on the internet for a puppy from a puppy mill if you are not careful. 

There is a sticky down in the breeding section, should I breed my dog. Look at it. These are the thing good breeders are doing with their dogs before breeding them. Though it may not seem important to you that the dog has titles, etc, being that it will be a family pet, I suggest that is of the utmost importance that there is some measure of temperament, especially on the bitch as she is the one who actually imprints the puppies through a critical stage. 

A family pet needs to be healthy, needs to have a good temperament, should look like a GSD, should be trainable. A person wanting a first puppy should go to a breeder that is knowledgeable, who is willing to help you if you run into problems, who can match you up with the best pup for you. 

Paying $300 to $600 for puppies through craig's list means you are encouraging people to breed dogs without an understanding of genetics, health screening, training, etc. They continue to breed because at $300 - $600 they are actually making money. And sometimes they are cutting so many corners to maximize their profits, that the dogs live in poor condition. 

Finding a good breeder, and supporting them by buying a pup from them, should provide you with a good puppy and knowledgeable support, at the same time, because that breeder is not cutting corners, her profits are probably not much if any even though the overall cost is higher. Her money is going into her dogs. She is buying the best dogs possible to breed from, she is raising some of her own, out of litters she is offering to you, she is paying for a stud fee to use the best male for her bitch. She is out there learning and teaching GSDs, supporting her club, entering shows and trying her dogs. 

Bottom line is, it is up to you where you want to get a dog from, they are all breeders.


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## MarkMulder (Feb 13, 2013)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Anyone who produces a litter of puppies is technically a breeder. You have to decide if you want your puppy to come from a breeder that didn't have a clue what they were doing, a breeder with a wealth of knowledge and experience, or all the other breeders that fall in between those two.


I guess that's what I'm asking, does anyone have experience with those "in the middle" breeders? Any medical problems and such?

For example, me and my wife went to the house of a craigslist breeder last week. The puppies had a beautiful mom and dad and looked quite fine. Then, talking to a few GSD owners, they assured me that the craigslist puppies will develop tons of medical problems. Which has made us really paranoid, I would hate to see a family member suffer down the road


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## MarkMulder (Feb 13, 2013)

Thank you for the quick and informative posts guys


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

MarkMulder said:


> I guess that's what I'm asking, does anyone have experience with those "in the middle" breeders? Any medical problems and such?
> 
> For example, me and my wife went to the house of a craigslist breeder last week. The puppies had a beautiful mom and dad and looked quite fine. Then, talking to a few GSD owners, they assured me that the craigslist puppies will develop tons of medical problems. Which has made us really paranoid, I would hate to see a family member suffer down the road


The truth of it is, Mark, no one can give a fail proof response on those "in the middles". Some of them do it right and will,at the very least, require that hips/heart/eyes/temperament are desirable before breeding. Some of them will slap two dogs together and call it good.

We sold a used car this weekend. We were asking a bit more than any Dodge Stratuses from that year are going for in the papers, these days. We had a dozen people come see it, but left when we wouldn't come down on our price. We knew, based on what we had done, that it was worth every penny. Know what sold it? Not that it looked good or ran good. The guy who bought it did so because before we put it up for sale, we took it our trusted mechanic and had him run a full diagnostic. Came back clean as a whistle.

To some people, that extra step meant absolutely nothing. To others, it's a requirement.

So....are you a diagnostic kinda guy? Or are you willing to take your chances?


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## MarkMulder (Feb 13, 2013)

zivagirl said:


> The truth of it is, Mark, no one can give a fail proof response on those "in the middles". Some of them do it right and will,at the very least, require that hips/heart/eyes/temperament are desirable before breeding. Some of them will slap two dogs together and call it good.
> 
> We sold a used car this weekend. We were asking a bit more than any Dodge Stratuses from that year are going for in the papers, these days. We had a dozen people come see it, but left when we wouldn't come down on our price. We knew, based on what we had done, that it was worth every penny. Know what sold it? Not that it looked good or ran good. The guy who bought it did so because before we put it up for sale, we took it our trusted mechanic and had him run a full diagnostic. Came back clean as a whistle.
> 
> ...


Really appreciate the post Ziva, definitely put everything in perspective.


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

It really depends, for example it could be an "in the middle" breeder who has researched the pedigree of his dogs and has checked that they come from healthy lineages and maybe is still developing his own breeding program with the help of an established breeder. You could also have an "in the middle" breeder who just let 2 dogs get together and it's the luck of the draw.
There is never a 100% guarantee that the puppies will be healthy but a responsible breeder will give you invaluable support in the care of your puppy and often breeders have some type of warranty on their dogs - something they are able to do because they know their dogs that well. A responsible breeder will also match you with a puppy that shows the right temperament for your needs.
$3000 is quite high, but something you could also consider looking at breeders outside your area. Then bringing it home would be just a matter of a road trip.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Expect to spend at least $1,000 for a pup from a responsible breeder, but you will likely make it back in vet expenses. I wouldn't pay $3,000. You can get exactly what you want for half that. Where are you located?


ALSO, think about that fact that if you just go by the fact that the parents LOOKED healthy...well, in most cases, the parents are still fairly young themselves, and maybe they have a health condition you just can't see. PLEASE go to a responsible breeder that does health testing and knows their stuff, not the craigslist sort that just tosses two dogs together.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah the problem with you, or even me, going to see dogs is that they all look good. Sure we can all pick out the ones that are malnourished and living in terrible conditions, but the majority of dogs don't live in those kinds of conditions. Most people that actually invite you over to look at puppies/dogs will clean up, and try to present their dogs in the best possible light. Without knowing the pedigree, the dogs behind the dogs you see, the history of the lines, ect...all we do is look at them. And you know what...all GSDs are beautiful. Most of us have a color preference, a line preference, a way we prefer our dogs to look, but at the end of the day, all GSDs are extremely beautiful and make a statement when you see one.

So its easy to see why someone like you or me would think there's no difference. And guess what, I didn't think there was a difference either. I got my dog from one of those places but ended up what I feel like getting lucky with his temperament and health (at least so far). Can you get lucky as well? Sure...but your chances go up when you go to a breeder with a proven history of good, healthy dogs.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

MarkMulder said:


> I guess that's what I'm asking, does anyone have experience with those "in the middle" breeders? Any medical problems and such?
> 
> For example, me and my wife went to the house of a craigslist breeder last week. The puppies had a beautiful mom and dad and looked quite fine. Then, talking to a few GSD owners, they assured me that the craigslist puppies will develop tons of medical problems. Which has made us really paranoid, I would hate to see a family member suffer down the road


YES!!! I got a bitch that I expected to be a great dog. I went to the breeder's house, met the parents, etc. He was a doctor. He'd imported titled dogs from Germany. He had a website. What he DIDN'T have was the knowledge on matching pedigrees. My bitch had nerves of steel, BUT she wasn't right mentally. I spent THOUSANDS of dollars on trainers, behaviorists, etc. She stayed that way all her life. She's randomly attack people. Some she knew, some she didn't. Never a warning, either. No one was threatening. She was a total nutcase that turned our house upside down. You can get a VERY well bred working line dog for $1200-$1500. MUCH better decision. PLEASE don't get a shepherd off CL!!! This is at least a 12 year commitment, and you don't want a bunch of problems. The 'breeder' of my female did NOTHING about her issues. Grim's breeder is ALWAYS there.... for anything I need. With so much that can go wrong with this breed, you REALLY are better off going to a reputable breeder. I just can't stress that enough. Mom and dad may be OK, but you don't know what grandparents were like, or what the mix of mom and dad will bring. That's why you go to those that KNOW. Many people here can point you in the direction of a really good breeder. Please don't waste your money... or support people who are breeding because they have a male and a female!!


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## Mog (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm getting a pup next month and thought I would give you my input as a new GSD owner as I've done a lot of research.

Health and temperment are very important. If you buy a pup from an unknown breeder, you really won't know what you're getting. This pup is going to be a member of your family and I'm sure you want the best for your family. While you may save a few dollars initially, any temperment/gentic problems he/she may have down the road will cost you a lot more; both financially and emotionally... I originally wanted to get a pup from a shelter, but there were two reasons that stopped me. Not knowing his/her background, I would never have felt comfortable about having the dog around my young daughter. And two... again, not knowing his background, I had no idea of his genetics, temperment and how his healthy would be as he aged... I've read too many hearbreaking stories about pups being in extreme pain, having to be put down, etc... due to bad genetics. Something I wouldn't want our family to have to deal with, nor our pup. 

If you start with a good breeder, the chances for your pup to live a long and healthy life are tremendously increased. 

Alex


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

MarkMulder said:


> Hello all, I'll be a first time GSD owner in a few weeks.
> 
> But my concern is this: I'm very paranoid about getting a puppy from a non-breeder. All I've been hearing is horror stories about "every dog that's not from a certified breeder will have hip dysplasia and die."
> 
> ...


Find your local SAR group, or local club. Get to know the people involved. They can point you in the correct direction for a puppy. It takes more time, but you can get a better quality dog and it won't be as expensive as just picking a breeder out of a directory.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

You said you're in SoCal? Where abouts? Are you willing to have a puppy shipped if it's not in California? 

If you tell us what you're looking for (in the dog) we might be able to match you to a breeder that would be right for you.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

MarkMulder said:


> I guess that's what I'm asking, does anyone have experience with those "in the middle" breeders? Any medical problems and such?


Personally, I wouldn't buy a puppy from an "in the middle" breeder. And I would never, EVER purchase a puppy via a Craigslist ad. 

Why? Because it only encourages Joe Schmoe to breed their dogs, without having any knowledge about breeding.

Think about it. Let's say you want to build a house. Would you hire a licensed contractor, or some random guy on Craigslist on the cheap? Presumably, this is where you are going to live for at least the next 10-15 years. You want it done right, so you don't have problems down the road. And if you do have problems, at least a licensed contractor is going to make good on it--the guy from Craigslist? If you can even find him, it's doubtful that he's going to assume any responsibility.

It's entirely possible that an "in the middle" breeder could produce a perfectly fine, healthy dog, but nature being what it is (no guarantees) you want to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible. Yes, you will pay more, but you are paying for the knowledge, experience, and proper ethics.

Our breed suffers from a lot of health and temperament problems, in large part because of backyard breeding. It's not something you want to support.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Think about it. Let's say you want to build a house. Would you hire a licensed contractor, or some random guy on Craigslist on the cheap? Presumably, this is where you are going to live for at least the next 10-15 years. You want it done right, so you don't have problems down the road. And if you do have problems, at least a licensed contractor is going to make good on it--the guy from Craigslist? If you can even find him, it's doubtful that he's going to assume any responsibility.


Excellent analogy!!!

The guy from craigslist may or may not be good, but since he has no license, you'll never know until the house falls apart!


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

Consider a rescue. Westside German Shepherd in LA has some amazing dogs up for adoption...sometime puppies. Most are young adults but it is an option if you are not set on a puppy.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Here, I got a dog from Craigslist, he will be 2 in a couple weeks. The guy who bred him told me he was 7.5 weeks old when I drove very far to pick my pup up. I got there, and they looked awfully small and in horrid condition. Me being young, I purchased my guy for $400. I found out a week later, all the other puppies died of parvo as he was taking them (which were only 3.5 weeks old!!!!) to the dog park. I got my little guy just in time. Fast forward through his giardia and SEVERE infestation of roundworms. He got attacked at 12 weeks so his dog aggression I will not blame on the byb, however, he was always kinda standoff-ish of puppies even when he was little. At 8 months he got his leg stuck in the kennel and his leg looked all kinds of messed up and we did x-rays, and the vet said his hips looked wonderful and hip dysplasia shouldn't be an issue. Thankfully, he just had a little nerve damage and healed fine. 
Anywho, 6 months ago I decided to get bloodwork done on him because since he was so sickly and malnourished when i got him, he had always been REALLY small. Everything came back clean and good except my dog has hyperthyroidism, which is very rare in dogs. Most get hypothyroidism, My vet didn't do anything about it so I am gonna make an appt with this other vet who actually tries to help problems like this. Sad thing is, according the records online, most dogs with hyperthyroidism have it due to thyroid cancer. So, that could have been prevented had I gotten him from a good breeder. He has filled out a bit but he is around 66-68 lbs now and very skinny and eats 8 cups of Merrick grain free a day and gets coconut oil, fish oil, vit E, ProZyme, and Friskies cat food to make him eat it all because otherwise he'd go 3 days without eating.

Then, on January 18th I got my 8 week old puppy from a breeder in West Virginia. I spent $400 to ship him, and $1,500 to own him. He is in PERFECT health and is BEAUTIFUL! He's extremely confident and fiesty (my other one was pretty timid as a pup in new situations and never wanted to interact with other dogs). My two dogs have still not played together because the older dog hates puppies, and my new one is almost 12 weeks old. I've been crate-rotating them. The first few pics are of my craigslist puppy, and the last ones are of my long coated new puppy  And the very last one is my craigslist dog as a 2 year old. He is very well loved and spoiled 

BTW, my 3.5 week old puppy only weighed 2.6 lbs!!!! He didn't reach age in weeks:weight until he was 14 weeks and weighed 14 pounds.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I think if you are seriously considering a CL breeder, you might as well get a rescued dog or pup -- same unknowns, but at least you are doing an unqualified good thing by saving a dog in need (who likely came from one of those CL breeders or their descendants). Purchasing a pup in that scenario is just spending a lot of money on a dog that is likely of indistinguishable quality from the purebred dogs (and pups!) who are being euthanized in Southern California shelters.

FWIW, I just got an email on 2/13 from a rescue network contact that listed nearly *two dozen* German Shepherds who are scheduled to be euthanized at various So Cal shelters. Some look very young, and there are some gorgeous dogs on the list. PM me with an email address if you want me to send you the list -- every dog on it is in grave danger, they are close by you, and the adoption fee is likely $100 or less (including speuter, shots, etc.).


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

MarkMulder said:


> Hello all, I'll be a first time GSD owner in a few weeks.
> 
> But my concern is this: I'm very paranoid about getting a puppy from a non-breeder. All I've been hearing is horror stories about "every dog that's not from a certified breeder will have hip dysplasia and die."
> 
> ...


Neither of my dogs cost near that much... but even if they did, that pales in comparison to the cost of feeding and vet care, etc. You'll be with them for a decade, don't concern yourself over the upfront cost. Likely, well bred dogs cost less over the longhaul.

You can have a puppy shipped btw.


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## MarkMulder (Feb 13, 2013)

Jag said:


> YES!!! I got a bitch that I expected to be a great dog. I went to the breeder's house, met the parents, etc. He was a doctor. He'd imported titled dogs from Germany. He had a website. What he DIDN'T have was the knowledge on matching pedigrees. My bitch had nerves of steel, BUT she wasn't right mentally. I spent THOUSANDS of dollars on trainers, behaviorists, etc. She stayed that way all her life. She's randomly attack people. Some she knew, some she didn't. Never a warning, either. No one was threatening. She was a total nutcase that turned our house upside down. You can get a VERY well bred working line dog for $1200-$1500. MUCH better decision. PLEASE don't get a shepherd off CL!!! This is at least a 12 year commitment, and you don't want a bunch of problems. The 'breeder' of my female did NOTHING about her issues. Grim's breeder is ALWAYS there.... for anything I need. With so much that can go wrong with this breed, you REALLY are better off going to a reputable breeder. I just can't stress that enough. Mom and dad may be OK, but you don't know what grandparents were like, or what the mix of mom and dad will bring. That's why you go to those that KNOW. Many people here can point you in the direction of a really good breeder. Please don't waste your money... or support people who are breeding because they have a male and a female!!



Thank you for sharing your experience Jag, I'm sorry about the behavioral problems you had to go through  We'll be going to a reputable breeder, that's for certain.




mycobraracr said:


> You said you're in SoCal? Where abouts? Are you willing to have a puppy shipped if it's not in California?
> 
> If you tell us what you're looking for (in the dog) we might be able to match you to a breeder that would be right for you.


That's awfully kind of you cobra, we live in Chatsworth, CA, in the San Fernando Valley.


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## MarkMulder (Feb 13, 2013)

sjackson310 said:


> Here, I got a dog from Craigslist, he will be 2 in a couple weeks. The guy who bred him told me he was 7.5 weeks old when I drove very far to pick my pup up. I got there, and they looked awfully small and in horrid condition. Me being young, I purchased my guy for $400. I found out a week later, all the other puppies died of parvo as he was taking them (which were only 3.5 weeks old!!!!) to the dog park. I got my little guy just in time. Fast forward through his giardia and SEVERE infestation of roundworms. He got attacked at 12 weeks so his dog aggression I will not blame on the byb, however, he was always kinda standoff-ish of puppies even when he was little. At 8 months he got his leg stuck in the kennel and his leg looked all kinds of messed up and we did x-rays, and the vet said his hips looked wonderful and hip dysplasia shouldn't be an issue. Thankfully, he just had a little nerve damage and healed fine.
> Anywho, 6 months ago I decided to get bloodwork done on him because since he was so sickly and malnourished when i got him, he had always been REALLY small. Everything came back clean and good except my dog has hyperthyroidism, which is very rare in dogs. Most get hypothyroidism, My vet didn't do anything about it so I am gonna make an appt with this other vet who actually tries to help problems like this. Sad thing is, according the records online, most dogs with hyperthyroidism have it due to thyroid cancer. So, that could have been prevented had I gotten him from a good breeder. He has filled out a bit but he is around 66-68 lbs now and very skinny and eats 8 cups of Merrick grain free a day and gets coconut oil, fish oil, vit E, ProZyme, and Friskies cat food to make him eat it all because otherwise he'd go 3 days without eating.
> 
> Then, on January 18th I got my 8 week old puppy from a breeder in West Virginia. I spent $400 to ship him, and $1,500 to own him. He is in PERFECT health and is BEAUTIFUL! He's extremely confident and fiesty (my other one was pretty timid as a pup in new situations and never wanted to interact with other dogs). My two dogs have still not played together because the older dog hates puppies, and my new one is almost 12 weeks old. I've been crate-rotating them. The first few pics are of my craigslist puppy, and the last ones are of my long coated new puppy  And the very last one is my craigslist dog as a 2 year old. He is very well loved and spoiled
> ...



That's terrible  I hope they figure out some type of treatment for him. I feel terrible for even considering buying a CL puppy and supporting those kind of people. Forgive me for my ignorance and thank you all for the stories and advice.


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## charlie319 (Apr 6, 2009)

Caveat Emptor. IMPO, not all small breeders are bad or BYB's... Always ask for the pedigree as astarting point and the reason for the breeding. What was the breeder looking to accomplish both in conformation and temperament. If there are prior litters (assuming that the fathers are different), ask what was different in those litters... Be leery of those who breed only what they have @ home more than once, unless they had a few VA or V rated pups the first time around... Run. Titling the parent dogs is important. If one is not titled, ask why. There are dogs pulled from training due to injury and I can understand the owner desiring to recoup the few thousand he's into the dog, but don't pay top dollar for anything other than top quality.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

They're definitely not all bad.  this being said, however, I believe that a little paranoia can be a good thing.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

sjackson310 said:


> Sad thing is, according the records online, most dogs with hyperthyroidism have it due to thyroid cancer. So, that could have been prevented had I gotten him from a good breeder.
> .


Cancer is not going to be prevented by going to a good or bad breeder. Any dog, just like any person can get cancer.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Cancer is not going to be prevented by going to a good or bad breeder. Any dog, just like any person can get cancer.


He didn't say that his dog became hyperthyroid as the result of cancer. He said that his one and a half year old dog, who had always been poorly, was diagnosed as hyperthyroid. And yes, hyperthyroid is _very _uncommon in dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LeoRose said:


> He didn't say that his dog became hyperthyroid as the result of cancer. He said that his one and a half year old dog, who had always been poorly, was diagnosed as hyperthyroid. And yes, hyperthyroid is _very _uncommon in dogs.


Yes there was a reference to it, read it again:"_Sad thing is, according the records online, *most dogs with hyperthyroidism have it due to thyroid cancer. So, that could have been prevented had I gotten him from a good breeder* _". If most dogs get it due to thyroid cancer, then it can't be prevented from any breeder, because cancer is cancer. I might be reading it wrong, but I doubt it.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Paying over $1000 for a puppy from a reputable, knowledgable breeder will likely mean a great deal less in veterinarian bills and future health problems, ALONG WITH lesser chances of the puppy developing temperament issues.


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## MarkMulder (Feb 13, 2013)

Wild Wolf said:


> Paying over $1000 for a puppy from a reputable, knowledgable breeder will likely mean a great deal less in veterinarian bills and future health problems, ALONG WITH lesser chances of the puppy developing temperament issues.


$1000+ would be amazing. But all the breeders I've found in SoCal are charging over $3000. I'd happily pay $1000-2000.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Kim is CA but not sure exactly where
JustK9s | Kistha Haus German Shepherds and Pembroke Welsh Corgi

Robin (huertahof) here on the board has a couple of her dogs and is very familiar with her. 

I don't know what she charges but can't imagine it to be 3 grand. 

I would LOVE one of kim's dogs, and I've heard nothing but really good things about her.


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## MarkMulder (Feb 13, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Kim is CA but not sure exactly where
> JustK9s | Kistha Haus German Shepherds and Pembroke Welsh Corgi
> 
> Robin (huertahof) here on the board has a couple of her dogs and is very familiar with her.
> ...


She does seem like an awesome breeder, unfortunately she's in Northern Cali, about a 9 hour drive for me. She has beautiful dogs for sure


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

IF her dogs appeal to you then a 9 hr drive is well worth it. You'll only need to make the trip once as it's really not necessary to 'see' or 'visit' the pups. Many breeders prefer to match the pup to the buyer. While I like having input on which pup I get, it wouldn't upset me to have a trusted breeder making that decision.

Just be very thorough & honest in what you need, want & expect in your pup.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

didn't read many posts. truth is i also have "sticker" shock from the price i have seen for puppies. that being said, i paid 800.00 for a gsd 13 years ago, so 1500.00 is really not really out of the question. imho, first thing to do is figure out what you want from your gsd. working, show or companion ect. study up on the different lines. then find a breeder that can give you what you want and you feel comfortable buying from. price is the price, this is one time you don't want to skimp.


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