# Wish People Would Mind Their Own Business



## Ronin2016

Sorry but I have to rant!

I bought Ronin a prong collar for training on walks and to help with the lunging and barking when people walk by the house. I've only had one for a couple of days, as I've mentioned in another post, and he's doing wonderfully! We always use praise when working with it as well so that he associates it with good things.

However, people can't leave well enough alone. I took Ronin for his 2nd walk last night (I take him for one in the mornings as well) and it was just in the graveyard near our house. It's always quiet and no one is usually in there so I was expecting a nice relaxing stroll. Ronin had his prong collar on and we were having a great time. The this woman comes running up from behind us, which wasn't smart in the first place.

She stopped in front of us when we moved over to let her pass, because I thought she was jogger at first, but she stopped and demanded to know if I had a prong collar on him. When I said yes she told me that I was a terrible human being and that I should take the prong collar off him right that minute. That I was a "lazy a**" for not learning how to train my dog properly and that I was abusing him.

Now, in that time, Ronin had sat quietly at my side, no pressure on the collar. Under previous circumstances he would have been lunging and trying to bite the woman. I told her that that was her opinion and to have a nice day and started to walk away. I'm not justifying anything to her. Then she pulled out her phone and threatened to call the cops on me and have me arrested for animal abuse. I turned around, said "You go right ahead and watch as I laugh when they tell you you're an idiot" and kept on going.

The woman followed me out of the graveyard and down the street back to my house! She was absolutely nuts! No cops were called, or if they were they didn't come and see me, but still! She even tried to grab at Ronin's leash once, and I yanked it away, and Ronin growled at her. I told her to leave me alone or I would be calling the cops. What a crazy night! Why can't people mind their own business! How I train my dog is no one's concern but my own. He loves the prong collar because he associates it with walks and treats.

People in my area are crazy!

End of rant!


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## Jax08

You should have called the cops on her.

People are insane.


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## MyHans-someBoy

You were far nicer than I would have been, especially if she made a grab at my dog's leash. I would have told her to shut up and be on her way and if she persisted, I'd have called the police on her.


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## islanddog

Ouch!
I'm lucky she doesn't live near me. I've accidently stepped on my dogs foot when he's having a reactive episode (we're working on it) and he shrieks like a banshee. I must sound like the worst owner in the world if someone hears that and thinks I'm punishing him, as opposed to mutual klutz moment.
Anyhoo, back to the prong collar, just buy a nice bandana if you just want to avoid the issue all together. 
There is nothing you can do to change her mind. (and she needs to learn that statement likewise).
Never engage with an idiot<--should be a t-shirt, huh?


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## Strikker

My experience is that few people understand prong collars and how to use them in training, but everyone seems to have an opinion about them (some a bit more over the top than others, as you found out). The moment someone reached for my dog and possibly put themselves in position for a bite from my dog I would have called the police. I congratulate you and your puppy for the control it took to avoid a bite when this person tried to take your dog. Calling the police is not a suggestion to teach this person a lesson or make a point, it would possibly protect your dog should this person again try to confront you with even more force and your dog apply a bite.


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## Remo

I have a black nylon cover for my prong collar - it does not interfere with the function of the collar and it keeps the uninformed away. When I am leash training a new foster is certainly saves my poor old shoulder. 

Seems like we already get enough stink-eye for just having a GSD in the first place - so it is just easier to disguise the prong collar than it is to try and educate someone about them. I have gotten lectures from people who have a "choke chain" on their dog, telling me how barbaric a prong collar is.


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## islanddog

Dynamo wearing a PRONG COLLAR. Bandana's are cheap. Safety orange--bonus.


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## dogma13

Wow.And now she knows where you live.Be careful!!


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## islanddog

dogma13 said:


> Wow.And now she knows where you live.Be careful!!


 I was thinking that, but didn't want to say it out loud.

Hopefully she move's on to someone else's dog... ack.


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## Fodder

are they illegal in Canada?


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## Ronin2016

Fodder said:


> are they illegal in Canada?


I think in some parts out west they are, but not here in Eastern Canada for sure.

As for her knowing where I live, I won't worry about it too much. Ronin is scary when he needs to be, and on his own property is a completely different dog than out and about. If she comes back, I will call the police without question.


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## GatorBytes

Fodder said:


> are they illegal in Canada?



Stupid people? No, they usually just get a slap on the wrist:wink2:


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## islanddog

Ronin2016 said:


> I think in some parts out west they are, but not here in Eastern Canada for sure.
> 
> As for her knowing where I live, I won't worry about it too much. Ronin is scary when he needs to be, and on his own property is a completely different dog than out and about. If she comes back, I will call the police without question.


Quebec has some kinda, sorta, law against collars that cause distress with prongs & ecollars as a written example. I think the animal has to be 'in distress' for it to be a reportable offence, but you wouldn't want a busy body following you around (as in hearing my dog yelp when his toe got stepped on, an attributing it to a prong collar).
I think one of our fine moderators has posted links to the exact wording: I wish I could remember, though.


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## Ronin2016

islanddog said:


> Quebec has some kinda, sorta, law against collars that cause distress with prongs & ecollars as a written example. I think the animal has to be 'in distress' for it to be a reportable offence, but you wouldn't want a busy body following you around (as in hearing my dog yelp when his toe got stepped on, an attributing it to a prong collar).
> I think one of our fine moderators has posted links to the exact wording: I wish I could remember, though.


I know that a lot of people don't know how to properly use them. I was opposed to it too because everyone was telling me how bad they were. Then I did my research and realized quickly how effective a tool it can be. So after discussion with my husband we purchased one. I have read and watched countless videos on proper placement, proper correction techniques and how to properly use them so that there is no discomfort for Ronin. People just need to learn to mind their own business. How I train Ronin is my business unless he looks like he is being abused. As in being beaten or neglected, neither of which is happening.


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## islanddog

Ronin2016 said:


> I know that a lot of people don't know how to properly use them. I was opposed to it too because everyone was telling me how bad they were. Then I did my research and realized quickly how effective a tool it can be. So after discussion with my husband we purchased one. I have read and watched countless videos on proper placement, proper correction techniques and how to properly use them so that there is no discomfort for Ronin. People just need to learn to mind their own business. How I train Ronin is my business unless he looks like he is being abused. As in being beaten or neglected, neither of which is happening.


They are harder to abuse with than people think. I used to 'test yank' prongs on the inside of my forearm. Would not call it pain. My current mini-prong, I've had around my own neck, nope, no pain. (and I'm a weenie about pain)
How the Quebec law gets interpreted is the main thing. There are people, and now you've met one, who consider a prong abusive-period-no qualifiers-prong on dog=abused dog. So the fact that you are not in Quebec is a very good thing. There is no arguing with these people. I'm on another forum that claims itself to be 'force free' (aka purely positive) so I know.
As I said, a bandana is free, and there's a really cool 'secret powers collar' , just google it, if you want to spend some bucks, or just, you know, ignore the bad behaviour of people and watch it fade...


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## Chip18

Fodder said:


> are they illegal in Canada?


My thought also and that only because it would give the "whack job" a leg to stand on "a wobbly leg sure but still a leg."


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## Ronin2016

islanddog said:


> They are harder to abuse with than people think. I used to 'test yank' prongs on the inside of my forearm. Would not call it pain. My current mini-prong, I've had around my own neck, nope, no pain. (and I'm a weenie about pain)
> How the Quebec law gets interpreted is the main thing. There are people, and now you've met one, who consider a prong abusive-period-no qualifiers-prong on dog=abused dog. So the fact that you are not in Quebec is a very good thing. There is no arguing with these people. I'm on another forum that claims itself to be 'force free' (aka purely positive) so I know.
> As I said, a bandana is free, and there's a really cool 'secret powers collar' , just google it, if you want to spend some bucks, or just, you know, ignore the bad behaviour of people and watch it fade...


Quebec is a different kind of province here that's for sure. I'm not going to hide the collar just yet. I don't really care about people's opinions. If it becomes such a big hassle then I will buy a bandana or something for him. For now, I'm okay with the way things are. Besides, we usually walk in quiet areas, not where there are a lot of people running around.


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## islanddog

Ronin2016 said:


> Quebec is a different kind of province here that's for sure. I'm not going to hide the collar just yet. I don't really care about people's opinions. If it becomes such a big hassle then I will buy a bandana or something for him. For now, I'm okay with the way things are. Besides, we usually walk in quiet areas, not where there are a lot of people running around.


If someone's being particularly obnoxious, I usually just smile and nod and pretend I'm deaf. This gets easier as you get older (a few grey hairs help).
Enjoy your dog.:smile2:


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## WateryTart

Strikker said:


> My experience is that few people understand prong collars and how to use them in training, but everyone seems to have an opinion about them (some a bit more over the top than others, as you found out). The moment someone reached for my dog and possibly put themselves in position for a bite from my dog I would have called the police. I congratulate you and your puppy for the control it took to avoid a bite when this person tried to take your dog. Calling the police is not a suggestion to teach this person a lesson or make a point, it would possibly protect your dog should this person again try to confront you with even more force and your dog apply a bite.


Agreed. We were warned about this when our trainer recommended a prong. Fortunately, while I've met others who told stories about getting yelled at by total strangers, we haven't run into this (yet - knock on wood). I assume people judge me all the time for things but they at least have the decency to keep quiet.

I agree, I'd make animal control or the police aware of what happened so that if she escalates, it's on record that she was provoking you/your dog.


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## Jen H

Holy cow. That is ridiculous. Now, with that said, I do not use them. That is for a very personal reason. When I was an animal cop in WA state, we went to rescue a dog that had been left outside for an unknown amount of time, pretty much no food and rancid water. When we approached the scene, we noticed his collar - it was the prong kind. Completely embedded in his neck. That baby did not deserve that. It took 2 surgeries to remove, months of retraining to make him adoptable. I have nothing against those that use it and utilize it correctly, I just cannot bring myself to even think about using them.


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## Ronin2016

Jen H said:


> Holy cow. That is ridiculous. Now, with that said, I do not use them. That is for a very personal reason. When I was an animal cop in WA state, we went to rescue a dog that had been left outside for an unknown amount of time, pretty much no food and rancid water. When we approached the scene, we noticed his collar - it was the prong kind. Completely embedded in his neck. That baby did not deserve that. It took 2 surgeries to remove, months of retraining to make him adoptable. I have nothing against those that use it and utilize it correctly, I just cannot bring myself to even think about using them.


I totally get that! And that is very much your choice and I would never tell someone that they had to use one.  I also think that you wouldn't come up and yell at me for using one. That's all I want. I want people to keep their thoughts to themselves and not bother us. As for that poor dog, that is terrible! I get why you would never use one after that. In that situation I hope the previous owner was punished for doing that to the poor thing. I always make sure that when the walk is done or his training is done, it comes off and his regular buckle collar goes back on.


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## Ronin2016

WateryTart said:


> Agreed. We were warned about this when our trainer recommended a prong. Fortunately, while I've met others who told stories about getting yelled at by total strangers, we haven't run into this (yet - knock on wood). I assume people judge me all the time for things but they at least have the decency to keep quiet.
> 
> I agree, I'd make animal control or the police aware of what happened so that if she escalates, it's on record that she was provoking you/your dog.


I don't know her name, but I know someone at the police station through my work so I'm thinking about letting him know.


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## Nigel

Jen H said:


> Holy cow. That is ridiculous. Now, with that said, I do not use them. That is for a very personal reason. When I was an animal cop in WA state, we went to rescue a dog that had been left outside for an unknown amount of time, pretty much no food and rancid water. When we approached the scene, we noticed his collar - it was the prong kind. Completely embedded in his neck. That baby did not deserve that. It took 2 surgeries to remove, months of retraining to make him adoptable. I have nothing against those that use it and utilize it correctly, I just cannot bring myself to even think about using them.


I can understand the impact that may have after seeing this first hand and I'm glad you were able to help this dog. There are horrid examples of embedded flat collars and harnesses too, I doubt the nutter in the OP's story is out rallying against those.

It's the neglect and abuse caused by the human that is repulsive, it's the human that should own 100% of the blame not the tool. While this may have affected your decision to not use a prong collar it's nice that you do not impose your choice on others :smile2:


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## Jen H

nigel said:


> i can understand the impact that may have after seeing this first hand and i'm glad you were able to help this dog. There are horrid examples of embedded flat collars and harnesses too, i doubt the nutter in the op's story is out rallying against those.
> 
> It's the neglect and abuse caused by the human that is repulsive, it's the human that should own 100% of the blame not the tool. While this may have affected your decision to not use a prong collar it's nice that you do not impose your choice on others :smile2:


exactly!


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## cdwoodcox

Sounds like you and Ronin held it together pretty good. I really don't see the need people have to try and demand their beliefs on others. Rosko wears a prong collar. The one puppy class I took him to the trainer spent 15 minutes explaining that a pinch collar is non abusive. Then when he noticed Rosko wearing a prong he was questioning why is he wearing a prong. I said cause it's the tool I prefer and if used appropriately is no more abusive than a flat collar He said "as long as your super gentle". But he clearly didn't like.


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## MoxyPup

I am so happy that Ronin didn't react to this! There is no way I would act the way this woman did towards someone holding a leash to a dog. You never know the temperament of the dog or how it will react to someone who is threatening their owner. 

And I'd never be aggressive towards someone in a graveyard... too many places they could hide my body :wink2:


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## Ronin2016

cdwoodcox said:


> Sounds like you and Ronin held it together pretty good. I really don't see the need people have to try and demand their beliefs on others. Rosko wears a prong collar. The one puppy class I took him to the trainer spent 15 minutes explaining that a pinch collar is non abusive. Then when he noticed Rosko wearing a prong he was questioning why is he wearing a prong. I said cause it's the tool I prefer and if used appropriately is no more abusive than a flat collar He said "as long as your super gentle". But he clearly didn't like.


Our previous trainers are vastly opposed to prong collars and we were told if we used them in their classes they would have be taken off and a buckle collar put on or we would be kicked out of the class. So we never explored prong collars. His new trainer, that's all he uses. He is not opposed to any other kinds, but that is the kind he prefers for his dogs so I know he knows how to properly use them. I did my research on them before trying one, and I have to say, the different I see in those dogs is amazing. WHEN USED CORRECTLY. If not, then they can damage and inflict pain. 

The woman was obviously having a problem with me, but again, I didn't engage in conversation or an argument, because you really can't reason with those people.


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## Ronin2016

MoxyPup said:


> I am so happy that Ronin didn't react to this! There is no way I would act the way this woman did towards someone holding a leash to a dog. You never know the temperament of the dog or how it will react to someone who is threatening their owner.
> 
> And I'd never be aggressive towards someone in a graveyard... too many places they could hide my body :wink2:


He did great! I was surprised he didn't. Especially since I was no doubt stiffening up and normally he would have been growling and lunging by that point. She was just that mad at me I guess. Not that it's her right to do that, but the good thing was that I was between here and Ronin when she reached for the leash. Ronin was on my right side and she was coming up behind me on the left. I just couldn't believe that she was being so aggressive that way. When she threatened the cops I wasn't nervous since I know a K9 cop and they use prong collars on all their dogs. A lot of the cops here would have set her straight, told her to go home and I would have continued on my way.

As for the graveyard...they are digging out a new spot for a new flower garden there I heard :wink2:


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## voodoolamb

See. I only silently judge people for using prongs. Maybe I should be like this lady

Of course my judgment is usually more along the lines of OMG why is that collar so heavy, and so far down on the neck that the dog can still pull!? And jeez are those tags hanging off? 

I did a paracord wrap around our prong. I don't use it much anyways but like that I don't have to worry about popped links or crazies seeing it.


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## Ronin2016

voodoolamb said:


> See. I only silently judge people for using prongs. Maybe I should be like this lady
> 
> Of course my judgment is usually more along the lines of OMG why is that collar so heavy, and so far down on the neck that the dog can still pull!? And jeez are those tags hanging off?
> 
> I did a paracord wrap around our prong. I don't use it much anyways but like that I don't have to worry about popped links or crazies seeing it.


Haha in that situation I would want you to come up and say I had it in the wrong spot. I'm okay with that. I would appreciate it actually. Also, he has no tags on his prong collar.  I will silently judge and think things when I see a dog being allowed to pull and tug on the owner and they don't care. And Ronin is just walking quietly beside me. I had one person comment on that when her chocolate lab was running all over the place dragging her around. She asked me my secret and I just said, "Good training". She just kind of said, "Oh. Well I'm not so good at that." I just told her to hire a good trainer. Some people have no clue what to do with their dogs.


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## islanddog

voodoolamb said:


> See. I only silently judge people for using prongs. Maybe I should be like this lady
> 
> Of course my judgment is usually more along the lines of OMG why is that collar so heavy, and so far down on the neck that the dog can still pull!? And jeez are those tags hanging off?
> 
> I did a paracord wrap around our prong. I don't use it much anyways but like that I don't have to worry about popped links or crazies seeing it.


Pictures? I wrapped my mini-prong with shoelace (so it wouldn't pop off), not elegant--hope to put it away once my hand heals (sprained).


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## voodoolamb

islanddog said:


> Pictures? I wrapped my mini-prong with shoelace (so it wouldn't pop off), not elegant--hope to put it away once my hand heals (sprained).


Mine's in the car and I am far too lazy to go fetch it  

Here's a link for some for sale so you can see what I mean:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/223566666/paracord-wrapped-prong-collar-training?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=prong%20collar%20cover&ref=sr_gallery_8

Mine doesn't have the side buckle because the collar i used had one of those quick release snaps. Also I pulled out the inner threads of the paracord on mine.

If you're into paracord projects it's basically just a king cobra knot weaved through the links. 

I'll try to remember to grab my collar and get a pic of it next time I go out.


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## SuperG

I made a flat collar look like a prong collar just to mess with those people......


SuperG


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## angelas

I've done a paracord cover as well. I also added a metal snap buckle.


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## cdwoodcox

You guys would probably tell me I'm doing it wrong then. I put a link back in Roskos prong. He doesn't pull and it isn't tight. If I need to give him a slight correction I can but very rarely does he need it. Don't ask me why I don't just use a flat collar. He walks good on them also. The prong just seems a little quicker or more convenient.


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## scarfish

i'm sorry, there's no way i'm going to alter, cover or decorate a prong collar to ease other people's feelings.


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## angelas

scarfish said:


> i'm sorry, there's no way i'm going to alter, cover or decorate a prong collar to ease other people's feelings.


Didn't do it for others. Did it because 1) Wanted to see if I could do it; 2) To add a quick release; 3) I love that cord pattern!

Here's another of the projects that I wanted to see if I could do it.


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## selzer

I'm not a fan of prongs. 

I particularly don't like people who ask how soon they can use it when they are considering an 8 week old puppy. 

But if they are not illegal, the lady should have minded her own business. She was pretty crazy, and maybe looking her in the eye, and saying something to make her think you are just as crazy, might have gotten her gone quicker. Maybe.


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## scarfish

if you guys want to get creative, combine a prong and E-collar in 1 collar. i'm sure it couldn't be too hard to rig that.


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## Jenny720

Whoa you both handled that well. Crazy lady invading your space at night in a graveyard trying to take your dogs leash - sounds like she had some screws loose. A good idea to bring your phone. She is lucky you did not call the cops. She was able to see the prong collar in the dark? Have you seen her before -sounds creepy.


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## selzer

scarfish said:


> if you guys want to get creative, combine a prong and E-collar in 1 collar. i'm sure it couldn't be too hard to rig that.


Why would you want that? I mean, I have seen a little old guy with a lackland terrier and he had his remote control in his hand, collar on the dog and a prong collar on him, and a bunch of treats, and the little monster BIT my dog. Usually I am quicker than that, so I was ticked at myself. My dog was fine, but that little monster needed a muzzle. The thing was, we were in classes, and that old guy needed to be there, so I didn't want to make a big fuss. He and his wife had two of these dogs, and the female was ok, but the male...


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## scarfish

selzer said:


> Why would you want that? I mean, I have seen a little old guy with a lackland terrier and he had his remote control in his hand, collar on the dog and a prong collar on him


that's exactly why! it looks retarded to have 3 collars on the dog.


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## cloudpump

scarfish said:


> that's exactly why! it looks retarded to have 3 collars on the dog.


Like this. Flat collar, prong collar, and bark collar.


To top it off, chain leash and cinder block....


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## scarfish

lol, that's the most ghetto thing i seen all day. no offense.

i don't leave prongs on when just chillin'. your bark collar is needed 'cause i doubt many dogs like to be tethered to a cinderblock. even with a fenced yard i won't leave a dog outside by itself longer to run to the bathroom or the fridge for a beer. that's just me though. i don't always trust these dogs. plus it's nice to sit outside a few times a day.


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## tccris

Yeah,i know the feeling...some should understand that a dog is not a doll..

Sent from my C5306 using Tapatalk


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## Ronin2016

selzer said:


> I'm not a fan of prongs.
> 
> I particularly don't like people who ask how soon they can use it when they are considering an 8 week old puppy.
> 
> But if they are not illegal, the lady should have minded her own business. She was pretty crazy, and maybe looking her in the eye, and saying something to make her think you are just as crazy, might have gotten her gone quicker. Maybe.


Ha ha I never thought of that, I was just more interested in getting away from her. Not that she made that easy. As for a prong, I get a lot of people aren't fans of them and I wasn't either until I had to really start looking at new methods of training for Ronin because he was just getting out of hand.


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## Ronin2016

Jenny720 said:


> Whoa you both handled that well. Crazy lady invading your space at night in a graveyard trying to take your dogs leash - sounds like she had some screws loose. A good idea to bring your phone. She is lucky you did not call the cops. She was able to see the prong collar in the dark? Have you seen her before -sounds creepy.


It was more of dusk at that point. Starting to get dark, but could still see decently well. When she saw us, it was probably when we were walking through a pretty open spot and the sun was still on us so she must have noticed it then. Or she was walking by when we were on our way in to the graveyard and saw us. Not sure, but either way she was a nut. I did have my phone on me, but of course, it died in my pocket. lol Almost time for me to get a new one. I know some people around the area and could have run to them if I had had to and used their phone. I kind of know who she is. I think she lives a few streets away from us if it is her, and she kind of has a reputation for being a nut. We have a few of those in our area.

We didn't go for a walk in the graveyard last night because of that. I went a completely different route and never saw her. On the plus side, Ronin's doing very well on the collar. He just automatically stays with me, other than to sometimes go a few feet and sniff at something, but I'm okay with that. Walks are meant to be fun.


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## car2ner

Ronin2016 said:


> As for a prong, I get a lot of people aren't fans of them and I wasn't either until I had to really start looking at new methods of training for Ronin because he was just getting out of hand.



video is a little long, they could have gotten to the point quicker, but here is a stealth prong that might be good for avoiding the "how dare you do that to your dog" crowd.


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## islanddog

voodoolamb said:


> Mine's in the car and I am far too lazy to go fetch it
> 
> Here's a link for some for sale so you can see what I mean:
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/223566...rch_query=prong collar cover&ref=sr_gallery_8
> 
> Mine doesn't have the side buckle because the collar i used had one of those quick release snaps. Also I pulled out the inner threads of the paracord on mine.
> 
> If you're into paracord projects it's basically just a king cobra knot weaved through the links.
> 
> I'll try to remember to grab my collar and get a pic of it next time I go out.


 Thanks, I have no clue how to wrap paracord, but my shoelaces are holding--I only did the shoelaces to keep it from popping apart, or at least hold my dog if it does pop. and it works for that, but looks like crap. I should post a pic of mine just for laughs.


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## islanddog

angelas said:


> I've done a paracord cover as well. I also added a metal snap buckle.


 Pretty in pink.
Maybe it's a girl thing? I like fancy collars, so decorating a prong, why not?
But seriously, there are some places where avoiding trouble is a good idea (Quebec, for instance)


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## Jenny720

Ronin2016 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa you both handled that well. Crazy lady invading your space at night in a graveyard trying to take your dogs leash - sounds like she had some screws loose. A good idea to bring your phone. She is lucky you did not call the cops. She was able to see the prong collar in the dark? Have you seen her before -sounds creepy.
> 
> 
> 
> It was more of dusk at that point. Starting to get dark, but could still see decently well. When she saw us, it was probably when we were walking through a pretty open spot and the sun was still on us so she must have noticed it then. Or she was walking by when we were on our way in to the graveyard and saw us. Not sure, but either way she was a nut. I did have my phone on me, but of course, it died in my pocket. lol Almost time for me to get a new one. I know some people around the area and could have run to them if I had had to and used their phone. I kind of know who she is. I think she lives a few streets away from us if it is her, and she kind of has a reputation for being a nut. We have a few of those in our area.
> 
> We didn't go for a walk in the graveyard last night because of that. I went a completely different route and never saw her. On the plus side, Ronin's doing very well on the collar. He just automatically stays with me, other than to sometimes go a few feet and sniff at something, but I'm okay with that. Walks are meant to be fun.
Click to expand...

Yeah she sure was a nut -reminds me of the "grandma" on the movie "the visit" it is just whom I'm picturing for some reason! Enjoy your walks I think you may have hit the nut quota for the week- hopefully for the year!!!!lol!!!


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## Ronin2016

Jenny720 said:


> Yeah she sure was a nut -reminds me of the "grandma" on the movie "the visit" it is just whom I'm picturing for some reason! Enjoy your walks I think you may have hit the nut quota for the week- hopefully for the year!!!!lol!!!


Oh I hope so! Now I just have to deal with crazy neighbors on issues that have nothing to do with the dog. Ha ha. I swear sometimes that I would pack up and move if I could just find the right house. It wears a girl out!


----------



## selzer

car2ner said:


> video is a little long, they could have gotten to the point quicker, but here is a stealth prong that might be good for avoiding the "how dare you do that to your dog" crowd.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr2nM9A4n2g&feature=autoshare


I'm with scarfish I think, on this, I wouldn't hide the collar to appease crazy people. If they are against the law, hiding the collar would be still illegal, and if not, everyone who doesn't like it can shove it up their, uhm, can put it in their ear. Their problem, not mine. 

I think that we were raised to be nice to people to a fault. There are moments when you have to say, "Lady, Get out of my face!" and then plow on by. Of course, I have never done it yet, but when you have something ready and waiting, some smart remark, some quick retort, then you stop having any opportunity to use it. I think you turn into a survivor and not a victim, and people who might say something to a sweet mouse, will think better of poking the bear.


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## Ripley2016

I had no idea prongs were so controversial. I've used them with my dogs for years and never had anyone say anything.

Personally, I think allowing your dog to pull, lunge, or bark unnecessarily at passer-bys is a far worse offense than using a prong collar. GSDs aren't small dogs and once they're full grown, they can and will easily scare someone with those behaviors. A prong correction on a dog is very simple and effective and you're not even hurting them - my dogs have never whimpered or yelped from a correction and they're perfectly happy on leash with them.

I definitely agree they need to come straight off after a walk though.

I wouldn't have taken kindly to the lady who got up in your face about it.


----------



## Ronin2016

selzer said:


> I'm with scarfish I think, on this, I wouldn't hide the collar to appease crazy people. If they are against the law, hiding the collar would be still illegal, and if not, everyone who doesn't like it can shove it up their, uhm, can put it in their ear. Their problem, not mine.
> 
> I think that we were raised to be nice to people to a fault. There are moments when you have to say, "Lady, Get out of my face!" and then plow on by. Of course, I have never done it yet, but when you have something ready and waiting, some smart remark, some quick retort, then you stop having any opportunity to use it. I think you turn into a survivor and not a victim, and people who might say something to a sweet mouse, will think better of poking the bear.


I love the anology! I'll have a better retort in mind if this ever happens again. I doubt it, but I'll have it in my head.  Also we aren't going to hide it, it's not illegal here and we're having some great results with it already!


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## Ronin2016

Ripley2016 said:


> I had no idea prongs were so controversial. I've used them with my dogs for years and never had anyone say anything.
> 
> Personally, I think allowing your dog to pull, lunge, or bark unnecessarily at passer-bys is a far worse offense than using a prong collar. GSDs aren't small dogs and once they're full grown, they can and will easily scare someone with those behaviors. A prong correction on a dog is very simple and effective and you're not even hurting them - my dogs have never whimpered or yelped from a correction and they're perfectly happy on leash with them.
> 
> I definitely agree they need to come straight off after a walk though.
> 
> I wouldn't have taken kindly to the lady who got up in your face about it.


I wanted to punch her, to be honest, but I've never hit anyone in my life and wasn't going to start then lol. My husband would probably have told her where to go and what to do if you get my meaning, but he's not as nice as me. :wink2:


----------



## Saito

Ronin2016 said:


> Ripley2016 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had no idea prongs were so controversial. I've used them with my dogs for years and never had anyone say anything.
> 
> Personally, I think allowing your dog to pull, lunge, or bark unnecessarily at passer-bys is a far worse offense than using a prong collar. GSDs aren't small dogs and once they're full grown, they can and will easily scare someone with those behaviors. A prong correction on a dog is very simple and effective and you're not even hurting them - my dogs have never whimpered or yelped from a correction and they're perfectly happy on leash with them.
> 
> I definitely agree they need to come straight off after a walk though.
> 
> I wouldn't have taken kindly to the lady who got up in your face about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to punch her, to be honest, but I've never hit anyone in my life and wasn't going to start then lol. My husband would probably have told her where to go and what to do if you get my meaning, but he's not as nice as me.
Click to expand...

Maybe something along the lines of, "he's in training for personal protection, so it is of utmost importance that he is to be heeling. Please stop following us around & shouting--you're being VERY suspicious to him."


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## KillRbee18

I love this harness, it goes well with Titan


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## selzer

What you say, has to be quick and aggressive -- not explanations, not threats you don't want to carry out (protection training). If she threatens to call the cops, whip out your phone and say, "Here, let me do it for you" and start dialing. No baloney, because you can call the cops, she is being obnoxious has tried to take your leash, is following, is hostile. That's calling her bluff, in an aggressive (confident) manner. 

Your retort has to be easy to remember and spit out, like "Get out of my face!" or "Get out of my way!" If it is pretty generic you can use it in many situations. If you can mold it to your personality, so long as it is definitely a don't-mess-with-me attitude. 

Leave the dog out of it, even if he is in protection training -- that can go seriously wrong. She can say you threatened her with the dog, and even call animal control. Yes, yes, probably that will be discounted when they realize what a loon she is. But it is like talking about your gun when you conceal carry. Not a good idea. If you feel it is necessary to bring out the gun, bring it out. Don't talk about it. Same thing with the dog. If you feel threatened and want to use the protection you put on the dog, use it, don't threaten.


----------



## Ronin2016

selzer said:


> What you say, has to be quick and aggressive -- not explanations, not threats you don't want to carry out (protection training). If she threatens to call the cops, whip out your phone and say, "Here, let me do it for you" and start dialing. No baloney, because you can call the cops, she is being obnoxious has tried to take your leash, is following, is hostile. That's calling her bluff, in an aggressive (confident) manner.
> 
> Your retort has to be easy to remember and spit out, like "Get out of my face!" or "Get out of my way!" If it is pretty generic you can use it in many situations. If you can mold it to your personality, so long as it is definitely a don't-mess-with-me attitude.
> 
> Leave the dog out of it, even if he is in protection training -- that can go seriously wrong. She can say you threatened her with the dog, and even call animal control. Yes, yes, probably that will be discounted when they realize what a loon she is. But it is like talking about your gun when you conceal carry. Not a good idea. If you feel it is necessary to bring out the gun, bring it out. Don't talk about it. Same thing with the dog. If you feel threatened and want to use the protection you put on the dog, use it, don't threaten.


I'm not a very aggressive person. I just walk away or don't say much. I have to work on that when I'm out and about with Ronin. Now, saying that, I've gotten better at telling people no they can't pet him and no I don't want them to bring their dog around mine, things like that. People never like to listen, but they quickly back off when I start walking away or Ronin barks at them. I'll keep that in mind though, a good phrase is good to have. We had no problems tonight in the graveyard and she wasn't there so we had a nice peaceful walk that we did some work on heeling for a couple minutes and a few long sit stays with no problems


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## David Winners

I throw "Blue Steel" at them. 

If that doesn't work, I just say, "Go away" in a very calm but assertive tone while looking very serious.

I suppose if it went past that, I would say something like, "I feel threatened. You are threatening me. I am fearful for my life." Really loud so there were (hopefully) several people that heard it. 

If some random person grabs my leash (good luck getting that close before I hit you with the other end) while screaming at me, (s)he's going to be wearing a German Shepherd and I will be calling the cops.


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## Chip18

islanddog said:


> As I said, a bandana is free, and there's a really cool 'secret powers collar' , just google it,.


Done. :grin2:

Lola Limited ? Secret Powers

LOL so ... someone has finally done it!! I see folks mention "Martingales Collars" all the time. There "primary" purpose is to keep dogs from slipping there collars at will, pretty much nothing more that that. 

But the "Secret Powers" "(Martingale)" ... is in reality ... half a "Prong Collar!" Instead of a full 360 degrees, as in a true "Prong Collar" it only does 180 degrees, the limited closure of a Martingale Gale, covers the other 180 degrees! 

Pretty ingenious in my view! The onus is still on the user to use the tool "properly." I see no reason why that would not work as well as a true 360 degree prong collar??


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## Ronin2016

David Winners said:


> I throw "Blue Steel" at them.
> 
> If that doesn't work, I just say, "Go away" in a very calm but assertive tone while looking very serious.
> 
> I suppose if it went past that, I would say something like, "I feel threatened. You are threatening me. I am fearful for my life." Really loud so there were (hopefully) several people that heard it.
> 
> If some random person grabs my leash (good luck getting that close before I hit you with the other end) while screaming at me, (s)he's going to be wearing a German Shepherd and I will be calling the cops.


I think it more surprised me, but I yanked myself away before she could have done anything. We've been working on Ronin not lunging at people so that's part of the reason I think he didn't lunge at her. He did turn towards her once and growl in warning, not that she paid attention to that. Stupid woman. The graveyard never really has people in it. It's also a HUGE graveyard since it's also partly a historical site from when the city was first founded, so it goes for miles. I doubt anyone would have heard me. Now, having said that, Ronin and I were really close to the gate so we were still near the entrance where people walk by on the street and possibly would have heard me.


----------



## SuperG

David Winners said:


> I throw "Blue Steel" at them.


Magnum or Le tigre will work as well.....depends on the situation.

SuperG


----------



## WateryTart

SuperG said:


> Magnum or Le tigre will work as well.....depends on the situation.
> 
> SuperG


BAHAHAHAHAHA

I hope you can turn in more than one direction. You might need to in order to execute evasive action.


----------



## David Winners

WateryTart said:


> BAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> I hope you can turn in more than one direction. You might need to in order to execute evasive action.


3 rights make a left.. and 3 lefts make a wrong.

Got it covered


----------



## cloudpump

scarfish said:


> lol, that's the most ghetto thing i seen all day. no offense.
> 
> i don't leave prongs on when just chillin'. your bark collar is needed 'cause i doubt many dogs like to be tethered to a cinderblock. even with a fenced yard i won't leave a dog outside by itself longer to run to the bathroom or the fridge for a beer. that's just me though. i don't always trust these dogs. plus it's nice to sit outside a few times a day.


That'd be my neighbors dog....


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## milaneechan

I was walking Baymax the other day and some guy came up to me and was telling me that I am going to kill my dog with the prong collar. So irritating. I tried to explain that my trainer recommended it, and that he only wears it when he is actively training. He didn't care >.>


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## Ronin2016

@;


milaneechan said:


> I was walking Baymax the other day and some guy came up to me and was telling me that I am going to kill my dog with the prong collar. So irritating. I tried to explain that my trainer recommended it, and that he only wears it when he is actively training. He didn't care >.>


Everyone always has an opinion. I now just walk past anyone who says anything to me and don't acknowledge them. We had another person comment on our use of the prong collar and I just "Thanks for your opinion" and kept walking.


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## Gretchen

I'm so sorry, what a horrible woman! Too bad you didn't call the police as this woman may react to other people this way in other situations. Without training with the prong, we'd have a difficult time with our last two dogs. When I see a prong on a dog I actually feel relieved, especially on a dog like a pit bull. I know the owner will be able to control their dog if it decides to lung at us or something. I've mentioned this before, that my adult daughter has a right sided weakness, like a stroke victim. She's petite and our dog is 87lbs, with her disability she needs to walk our dog with the prong. People like that woman can be so shortsighted and selfish.


----------



## sighwhatever

hard to believe you see people passing by other people who are in real distress, but a prong collar on a dog, they feel the need to interfere. needless to say that woman was way out of line. the prong collar was the only thing that worked wonders for my belgian sheepdog as a pup. the difference was night and day. he yelped when he had on a nylon collar at times when he decided to pull unexpectedly during walks. with the prong, all that pulling and lunging stopped very quickly. never had an issue with people meddling or giving their two cents, probably due to the fact any kind of collar he wore was hardly visible because of his thick long mane.


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## selzer

Gretchen said:


> I'm so sorry, what a horrible woman! Too bad you didn't call the police as this woman may react to other people this way in other situations. Without training with the prong, we'd have a difficult time with our last two dogs. When I see a prong on a dog I actually feel relieved, especially on a dog like a pit bull. I know the owner will be able to control their dog if it decides to lung at us or something. I've mentioned this before, that my adult daughter has a right sided weakness, like a stroke victim. She's petite and our dog is 87lbs, with her disability she needs to walk our dog with the prong. People like that woman can be so shortsighted and selfish.


This bothers me. I am sorry your daughter has a disability. But anyone who requires a prong collar to control a dog should not be responsible for that dog. Which includes walking the dog around the block on their own. 

Your daughter has a disability. Then, that is 10 times the reason to have the puppy in classes and to work with the puppy daily from 8 weeks on up. You and your daughter. Relying on a collar that makes it uncomfortable (not impossible) for the dog to pull isn't a substitute for having the dog well-trained and bomb proof in all situations. And, nobody will like this, but I am going to say it anyway, delivering corrections or even self-correcting with a prong collar will tend to create a dog that needs a stiffer correction. Taking a dog that was trained on a prong for a walk on a martingale is a pain, and until you can bring that dog to walk with you and to accept your leadership, it will continue to be more difficult, because of the prong collar.

Just like Flexi-leads train a dog to pull. BAD. Prong collars make dogs more insensitive to corrections. 

If someone is not willing to train the dog to walk on a lead without a prong, then are they training the dog to control its prey drive? So what is your disabled daughter going to do when your dog sees a fox on a walk with her. The dog has figured out he can't catch the squirrels and must not go after them, isn't willing to risk the self correction for the squirrel, but the fox is simply too enticing. He will charge the fox and probably pull the lead out of the daughters hand, possibly knocking her down in the process. Because the prong collar doesn't make it impossible, it just makes it uncomfortable. And dogs will make the decision to accept the discomfort if the prize is great enough. 

Ok, poor fox, who cares, the dog chases it off or kills it, and comes back to your daughter and everyone seems safe and no harm, no foul. But, what if it is a bicycle, or a horse (Yep even in town we have a horse now and again) being walked or ridden or driven up the street or sidewalk? What if it is someone else's dog? Dogs are general enough that you probably know what is going to happen with a dog, but if the dog is not solid, is not trained, if we are relying on a collar, the dog just might see _that_ dog and suddenly your dog who seemed ok around other dogs, attacked someone else's dog, and your daughter can't possibly pull him off in time to save its life. 

If you are 85 pounds and the dog is 89 pounds and you simply cannot control the dog without a prong collar, pick another breed. Or, pick a line that is less likely to have high prey drive, high energy, etc. 

My nieces are nine. The larger is 73 pounds. I had them out working with Mufasa, Quinn, and Ramona the past two weeks in a class for kids. The smaller girl, Analisa who weighs about 60 pounds was working Mufasa who weighs 80 on a martingale. The larger girl, worked Ramona (5.5 months old) one week, and Quinn (10 months old) the next week on martingales. It wasn't pretty. Neither of Elena's bitches were trained, Moofy's last training was back in December -- he turned two in April. Both dogs live with me, the girls do not, but they know the girls. 

It wasn't pretty. The dogs were all totally focussed on me. Not the girls. And there was some dragging going on. These girls can lead trained horses around, so they aren't afraid to handle an animal. But, the dogs were insecure in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to go with me. What they want, they can do when we are only talking about 70 pounds on the other end of the leash. If it was 200 pounds, they could still pull it. It would be harder. Doesn't matter. We do not count on our weight to not be dragged around. We train the dog to go with us, to come to us, to stay, to walk around. 

It wasn't pretty, but the girls were able to get the dogs up on a platform and sit on the plat form, to walk them around cones, weaving back and forth, to get them to jump a small jump, to go through a tunnel. On martingales. In less that 1 hour, with the highly distracting young dog they wanted to play with, in the room, and with their Susie, that they wanted to get to, across the room. Ramona had never been to classes. Quinnie made it to four class sessions around about the age Ramona is now, and Moofie has had the bare minimum required to get through is RN last December. Ramona had never been leashed prior to that day. 

If these dogs were in classes by 10 weeks old, and continued to be trained daily, as they should have been if I was planning for them to be used for someone with little strength, then they would have been much easier. 

It just isn't an excuse to not train, and rely on a prong collar. Prong collars have come open. Then what? Then what does an elderly person or a disabled person do? You know what I do if I drop the lead (I drop things due to a medical condition), I have my dogs trained, what a concept, to stop and come back to me. That's what happens, every time. 

If I trained my dog to avoid the pinch of the collar, would they come back to me if I dropped the lead? Probably, if I trained them to do so. But if I was using the collar because I didn't have enough strength to hold the dog without it, well then someone or something is going to get hurt. If I am lucky, it will be my dog, run over by a car, lost and trapped in a trap or shot by a farmer or hunter. If I am unlucky, than someone else's dog or a person will be hurt. My dogs are not vicious, but if they are injured, afraid, in the middle of a dog fight, and a human gets their hand in there, than a dog is a dog, it may bite. 

Petite, disabled, elderly -- not an excuse to rely on a collar. If they cannot train the dog to be under voice control, then they should not be in a position to be responsible for the dog, even around the block. Know why too many incidents are recorded each year with GSDs? Easy. People rely on gadgets -- normal sized adult people who ought to be able to handle their dog. They rely on gadgets and are so thrilled to explain to everyone how _their _dog requires this sort of collar because he is so strong, or so tough, or so dominant. When I see a prong collar, I think, "accident waiting to happen." 

And yes my dogs are show line dogs. But we've all seen the vid of the 7 year old doing schutzhund. Bet she did not train that dog herself, from puppy on up. But she can handle the dog. The dog is not dragging her to the decoy who he really wants to engage. It's not because he can't. It's because in his mind, he is trained not to. 

The reason I hate these collars is because the collar corrects the symptom, not the problem. And eliminating that symptom is enough for most people, so, problem solved! See, I didn't have to spend $120 to a trainer, did it myself. The dog is NOT trained, and the dog is becoming less and less sensitive to mild corrections. But the dog is manageable WITH THE COLLAR. And, if nothing happens, in time, the dog will mature, and the pattern of walking and the repetition of walking with the collar will replace training, and the dog will one day walk like we want him to without the collar. And the owner will be thrilled with their ability to manage and train their GSD. 

Necessary, no. But it works, so I guess we don't knock it.


----------



## dogma13

Selzer I know we've talked about this before,but the prong doesn't have to be a bandaid.It can be used to communicate with a lighter touch exactly the same way as a martingale or flat collar.Just imagine for a moment if you had some sort of accident or medical condition that weakened your arms,wrists,hands.Are you going to give up all of your dogs or figure out how to achieve the same things,using your same methods,only with different tools?


----------



## WateryTart

I don't know, selzer.

Mine is doing fine with a regular martingale at this point, but I won't be responsible for another person's large dog without a prong, unless it's a dog I know is well trained on leash and I've been able to see it's reliable for me (I haven't yet been responsible for that hypothetical dog, but I'm open to the possibility). There's one dog in particular I'm thinking of, the leash manners are horrid. Unfortunately I'm sometimes responsible for walking that dog. It will not mind on leash and would rather drag the handler down the street. The owners aren't training it, and it is strong enough to pull both its athletic owners and my husband. I had observed this and came prepared. I took a link out of my dog's prong collar and got on the other end of the leash with a prong on the dog. One hard side correct, and, "I said HEEL!" and it's walking a different dog: Perfect heel position for the rest of the walk. It will not mind for anything less - I try every time with a firm heel command and a reminder before going to that collar pop. Then I praise the heck out of it for heeling so well, but it has never once responded to anything but that hard correct. I've decided that I'm okay with putting a prong on that dog and whatever happens as a result, because it isn't my dog and if I am stuck dealing with it, I'll make it as easy for myself as I can.

Actually, I could use your logic to get out of walking that dog. It wouldn't go over very well, but I could try it...


----------



## selzer

My two largest dogs were trained with prong collars. Odessa who weighs in over 90 I got at 4 years, and she was trained with a prong. I have never used one on her, but though she was titled in schutzhund, she was probably my worst dog in classes. Why? Because she didn't think I meant business because I wasn't using a tool. Now she is perfect. She really didn't need classes. I just had to let her know I was going to follow through, regardless to the collar, and she figured out my communication style, and no problem.

The other dog I got back at 18 months old. He is 4 now. Guy gave him to me with a prong on. I drove part of the way home, stopped at my sisters and removed the prong collar -- hadn't seen this boy since he was 2 months old. Wouldn't go into the crate for the world, so we had to take the crate out of the car and have his owner put him in and then lift it to put it back in. But I did not want that collar on him. So I took it off and hooked a leash to the collar, and again, he thought he could pull me because the collar wasn't there. I did not allow it, and he figured it out what I wanted. It just took a little longer. The guy that had him was in his 80s, and I suppose needed the prong. 

But, it is just a matter of time before the dog decides that something out there is worth the discomfort and will go through the discomfort to get at it. A weak handler is a weak handler regardless of the tool they are using. And a frail old lady can handle these dogs without a prong collar. 

No chance at the medical condition to my hands driving me to a prong collar. Already been there done that. I couldn't manage to put the darn thing on the dog. Had surgery to my hand and a young male. I could not get the prong on him because of my hand. I didn't need it. I certainly managed without it. I actually do have a problem with my wrists, and I have to manage my dogs with that problem. 

If I could not safely handle my dogs, I would find a suitable home for them. 

I am not saying the prong collar is bad, or cruel. I am saying that it is irresponsible to have a dog you cannot handle. It is irresponsible to handle a dog that is dangerous where you cannot keep others safe, where others' safety depends on the dog's responsiveness to a collar. 

Yes, our leash/collar is the umbilical cord between the dog and ourselves. 

I am pretty anal about safety. Most of my dogs reside in kennels with at least one other gate besides their kennel's gate before they are in the wide world. Milla and now Joy, and bear have just their own gate. These dogs might die in an accident, but the will not attack or bite anyone. 

I use a martingale so the dog cannot slip the collar. But I put a collar with the dog's tags on her in case I am in an accident or somehow lose her, the collar will be there and the tags, even if I am holding a leash and broken martingale. All but the very youngest of my dogs are proficient with recall, and are trained to come back to me if I drop a leash, and wait for me to get it. 

I don't keep lions or tigers or bears, because I couldn't possibly pull one off of someone or some thing if they decided to attack. I can with dogs. If someone cannot, with the breed that they own, they should not own that breed. 

If you cannot handle an aggressive chow or pit bull or GSD, wherever you are working, then I think it is dangerous to try to do so with a tool. It just takes a slip or a malfunction and then that dog hurts someone. Working with other people's dogs, you don't have the luxury of taking your time and bonding with the dog, raising it from a pup, etc. I understand the thinking behind using the prong or e-collar, but I think it can make it more difficult for the new owner if they do not want to use such tools.


----------



## WateryTart

selzer said:


> If you cannot handle an aggressive chow or pit bull or GSD, wherever you are working, then I think it is dangerous to try to do so with a tool. It just takes a slip or a malfunction and then that dog hurts someone. Working with other people's dogs, you don't have the luxury of taking your time and bonding with the dog, raising it from a pup, etc. *I understand the thinking behind using the prong or e-collar, but I think it can make it more difficult for the new owner if they do not want to use such tools*.


And there's where I've kind of decided I don't care. They put me in the position of walking their dog. I can't go into too much detail here but suffice to say it's been a situation such that it's really hard for me to say no; usually I say "no" with abandon, I'm really good at it. But this hasn't worked out that way.

Someone obviously trained this dog to heel at some point, because it does so better than my dog with a BN, if it is sufficiently motivated. The current owners don't bother. But someone did, once. I figured this out the first time I tried "heel" normally, didn't get a response, and tried the hard correct. That dog fell right into line in perfect position. It was trained at one time. I always give it a chance to heel when I command the first time, just in case; obviously it isn't fair to the dog to just correct without saying clearly what I want it to do, and hope springs eternal: Maybe it will do it. Nope. So given that I can't always say no, and I'm stuck walking the dog (and not regularly enough for me to work with it with any consistency), the immediate concern is how do I make it easy and safe for me in the moment, versus an ordeal in which I end up getting dragged down the sidewalk.



selzer said:


> I am not saying the prong collar is bad, or cruel. I am saying that it is irresponsible to have a dog you cannot handle. It is irresponsible to handle a dog that is dangerous where you cannot keep others safe, where others' safety depends on the dog's responsiveness to a collar.


I should totally try this.

"But I can't walk Poopsy. A lady on the internet said it's irresponsible because I can't control him without a prong."

Should I try this and report back? :laugh2:


----------



## astrovan2487

That is nuts, you have some patience handling that woman as well as you did. You might want to watch out for her since she knows were you live, a lot of these PETA type nuts are stealing people's pets from them when they are unattended out in the yard. I did not know that prongs were so controversial either. My pup wears a prong whenever she's leashed in public. Makes it much more enjoyable for both of us. Every training device I've used on a dog I've tried on myself first just to know how it feels, the prong dosent really hurt, just makes uncomfortable pressure.


----------



## selzer

WateryTart said:


> And there's where I've kind of decided I don't care. They put me in the position of walking their dog. I can't go into too much detail here but suffice to say it's been a situation such that it's really hard for me to say no; usually I say "no" with abandon, I'm really good at it. But this hasn't worked out that way.
> 
> Someone obviously trained this dog to heel at some point, because it does so better than my dog with a BN, if it is sufficiently motivated. The current owners don't bother. But someone did, once. I figured this out the first time I tried "heel" normally, didn't get a response, and tried the hard correct. That dog fell right into line in perfect position. It was trained at one time. I always give it a chance to heel when I command the first time, just in case; obviously it isn't fair to the dog to just correct without saying clearly what I want it to do, and hope springs eternal: Maybe it will do it. Nope. So given that I can't always say no, and I'm stuck walking the dog (and not regularly enough for me to work with it with any consistency), the immediate concern is how do I make it easy and safe for me in the moment, versus an ordeal in which I end up getting dragged down the sidewalk.
> 
> I should totally try this.
> 
> *"But I can't walk Poopsy. A lady on the internet said it's irresponsible because I can't control him without a prong."*
> 
> *Should I try this and report back?* :laugh2:


Why not just wait until that prong comes open while you are walking that dog, and report how you felt. 

If the prong makes it easier to do what needs to be done, than that's your choice. If the prong is necessary for you to control the dog, than I don't think you should be trying to control the dog in public. It's just my opinion, but it isn't going to change.


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## WateryTart

Selzer, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.

I'm largely joking around here, but it is a good thought you've planted: Maybe I can use this as a solid reason to not have to deal with that dog (it's kind of a long story, I'm truly not in a good position to say "no"). At least, it's something to think about. I can tell you that I won't have a hard time forgiving myself if the prong does pop off. Which tells me that you aren't wrong.

I don't think we're in disagreement, I've more just decided to make life convenient for myself when needed.


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## selzer

WateryTart said:


> Selzer, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.
> 
> I'm largely joking around here, but it is a good thought you've planted: Maybe I can use this as a solid reason to not have to deal with that dog (it's kind of a long story, I'm truly not in a good position to say "no"). At least, it's something to think about. I can tell you that I won't have a hard time forgiving myself if the prong does pop off. Which tells me that you aren't wrong.
> 
> I don't think we're in disagreement, I've more just decided to make life convenient for myself when needed.


With a head collar or a prong collar, it is good to have an extra loop that goes from your leash to a flat collar in case the dog slips the head collar, or the prong pops. Failures with prongs are not common, but not unheard of. With a dog you can't otherwise control, that makes things more interesting. Control could be just dragging you around, or it could be going for people or pets. Some dogs might run away from danger too, which can drag you off your feet. 

The extra loop -- two small clips and a little piece of leather, can be a life saver if you do have an equipment failure. 

Evenso, if you feel uncomfortable working with a critter, fear for the safety of yourself or others, definitely consider your options. Because feeling bad for not giving the critter a walk is not anywhere close to how you will feel if someone's small pet was seriously injured or someone got bitten and the dog needed to be put down.


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## MineAreWorkingline

dogma13 said:


> Selzer I know we've talked about this before,but the prong doesn't have to be a bandaid.It can be used to communicate with a lighter touch exactly the same way as a martingale or flat collar.Just imagine for a moment if you had some sort of accident or medical condition that weakened your arms,wrists,hands.Are you going to give up all of your dogs or figure out how to achieve the same things,using your same methods,only with different tools?


I am not against prong collars if necessary but if the prong can be used to communicate with a lighter touch the same as a martingale or flat collar, then why choose the prong?

No disrespect intended at all, but if you train your dog to walk on a loose leash, then if an accident or medical condition occurred that weakened one's arms, etc., then training would remain the same on current and future dogs, and their would be no tool change necessary. The methods are out there but people are simply choosing not to train the dogs. :shrug:


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## LuvShepherds

I understand that the ideal situation is to be able to do all walking with a flat buckle collar or off lead but for a lot of people that isn't possible. Short of giving up a dog, which means more dogs in shelters or dead, I see nothing wrong with using tools available to manage a dog. Selzer, I know you mean well, but comments like that when someone has no idea how to manage a dog without a collar are going to make people feel terrible. I use prongs as a safety measure. I rarely need to give a correction but if one of my dogs bolts and is not paying attention, I need the ability to use it. It's one thing if you rarely ever see another dog or distraction. The sad outcome is that dogs are left home and never go anywhere if people are restricted.


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## MineAreWorkingline

My dogs go everywhere with me because they can do it on a flat collar or off lead. There are just too many effective methods out there to teach the dog to walk loose lead. What I don't understand is why people are reluctant to use these simple, effective methods but are so quick to permanently put a prong on it. Why wouldn't somebody want a dog that is trained to walk loose lead? It is too important to me to settle for anything less.


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## Syaoransbear

Just because a dog is wearing a prong collar doesn't mean it isn't trained. You can have a loose leash the whole time, you don't need to use the function of the prong. Why is a flat collar and a leash the end goal? Should it not be naked in an off-leash heel? What's the difference between using a flat collar vs a prong collar? You are still using a tool, a 'bandaid'. 

I permanently use prong collars because dogs are not robots and they are stronger than me. Even if you have trained for every scenario under every distraction, they are not 100% reliable. Eventually a time may come where the dog will break training and if you are not physically capable of restraining the dog with just a flat collar, the dog is gone. 

A prong collar keeps me and my dog safe regardless of any training. Especially right now with two injured shoulders.


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## dogma13

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not against prong collars if necessary but if the prong can be used to communicate with a lighter touch the same as a martingale or flat collar, then why choose the prong?
> 
> No disrespect intended at all, but if you train your dog to walk on a loose leash, then if an accident or medical condition occurred that weakened one's arms, etc., then training would remain the same on current and future dogs, and their would be no tool change necessary. The methods are out there but people are simply choosing not to train the dogs. :shrug:


I'll try to be more clear.For someone with limited strength and flexibility in hands,wrists,arms,or shoulders(me-arthritis) a leash pop with a flat collar is a pathetic sad little tug.When Samson was around a year old he gave up walking on a loose leash and I couldn't correct it properly.A trainer at the club we go to for class let me borrow a prong and problem solved.My pathetic,sad tug was now communicating effectively that "Yes,you must continue to keep this leash loose just like always before.Suck it up."
After a few months the prong was replaced with his old flat collar and all is well.He's back to responding to a light touch.Five years ago I wouldn't have considered using a prong for such an insignificant thing.But it was just what I needed to make up for what I lacked.


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## Jenny720

Everyone has different opinions on everything down to shoe laces- makes for much drama for some. I'm still not getting why people assume if one uses a prong collar the dog is uncontrollable or the person is not training their dog, unless it was their own experience and should not be reflected on all others.
I use the herm sprenger neck tech prong it gives me extra control if needed and has enabled me to give a strong enough corrections if needed. I like my prong collar. There are times I use his flat collar or his fur saver or a slip lead. Most of the time I use the herm sprenger. I can say no pulling as a reminder with any collar he has on when walking down the stairs or walk way near the drive way as there are sometimes feral cats under the bushes that may jump out if he may think about chasing a cat when on a extremely long lead. Saying No pulling does the trick as easy to read his mind. doesn't matter what collar we have on??????We go for long walks in the neighborhood. I do have more control with the prong collar if he thought about act like an idiot of any sort and I missed it. If I was walking my dog who was well behaved on a leash and some strange lady invaded our spAce and reemed me out for using a prong collar- as in the op's case. I would deem that person mentally unstable and someone who enjoys purposely stirring up trouble. It would be someone I would love to use a air horn on- lol!!!


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## WateryTart

I'm really sorry, selzer, I missed what you were getting at earlier.

I see what you're saying. This dog isn't a danger to someone else's small pet or to a person, it's just terrible at leash walking and it's large and strong and could pull me flat on my face if I attached a leash to a flat collar. I can't control it in the sense that it won't walk nicely and won't listen without a prong collar and a tough approach.

I won't do the leather clip you suggest because honestly, the safest thing for me to do would be to drop leash anyway rather than be dragged once the dog figured out the prong wasn't there.

The biggest danger would be to the dog itself getting hit by a car if it got loose. And while that would be sad, I would consider that the owners put it in that position by refusing to teach leash manners and by putting nonprofessional dogsitters in the position of walking it. I would take no responsibility for that outcome.


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## MineAreWorkingline

dogma13 said:


> I'll try to be more clear.For someone with limited strength and flexibility in hands,wrists,arms,or shoulders(me-arthritis) a leash pop with a flat collar is a pathetic sad little tug.When Samson was around a year old he gave up walking on a loose leash and I couldn't correct it properly.A trainer at the club we go to for class let me borrow a prong and problem solved.My pathetic,sad tug was now communicating effectively that "Yes,you must continue to keep this leash loose just like always before.Suck it up."
> After a few months the prong was replaced with his old flat collar and all is well.He's back to responding to a light touch.Five years ago I wouldn't have considered using a prong for such an insignificant thing.But it was just what I needed to make up for what I lacked.


I am by no means a dog trainer, but I know of three very popular and effective methods to stop pulling on a leash that do not involve physical strength or leash pops. Evidently in your situation the prong was the best choice. 

Good to hear about a prong used to train a dog vs control and manage. Great work!


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## Jenny720

I remember many moons ago I was out wAlking my dog for a walk and a young boy who was about- 12 I'm guessing-was walking a Great Dane. The dog was 5 times his size the dog saw us and dragged the boy a 1/2 a block on concrete -1/2full block. This kid did not let go at all he was on his belly being dragged and was grabbed onto a tree as it entered a neighbors yard. This kid is very lucky he did not get dragged in front of a oncoming car. This dog was plowing down the street with a kid screaming getting dragged on the ground. Awful sight. The boy should of not been walking him he was way to young and had no control. I was greatful though he did not let go as the dog was incredibly aggressive. Why a 12 year old boy was allowed to walk a dog like that I will never know or maybe he was not allowed and snuck the dog out. The boy was okay just had some really bad scrapes. I don't think a prong collar would have done anything in this situation only damage.


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## dogma13

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am by no means a dog trainer, but I know of three very popular and effective methods to stop pulling on a leash that do not involve physical strength or leash pops. Evidently in your situation the prong was the best choice.
> 
> Good to hear about a prong used to train a dog vs control and manage. Great work!


He wasn't really a puller but more of a "lurcher".So many telephone poles to sniff!And sewer grates!All of which he is allowed to thoroughly investigate when he walks politely.So yeah,it worked out great for us


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## WIBackpacker

Syaoransbear said:


> A prong collar keeps me and my dog safe regardless of any training. *Especially right now with two injured shoulders*.


In my opinion, it's narrow-minded and overly critical to judge a stranger just because you see a prong collar on their dog.... you simply cannot know what else is going on. Good example, above. ^

I broke two bones in my leg a few years ago. After I got off crutches and transitioned into a walking cast, I dug the prong collar out of a dusty box in the basement and put it on my 6 year old GSD while I was starting to walk and re-build muscle and coordination in my leg. That dog hadn't used or needed any sort of prong or correction collar for years, since sometime back in basic foundation obedience. But *I* needed absolute surety that I could walk on snowy, icy roads with zero tension on the leash, even if a pack of off-leash dogs or an army of cats ran straight at us.

The alternate? No walks with my dog for at least 12 more weeks even after the cast was off. That would'be been pointless. I don't really care what people thought, I needed to make sure my leg healed, and that my dog was exercised. Tools have a place, and shouldn't be judged unless you understand the entire picture....


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## LuvShepherds

Everyone wants their dogs to walk well on the leash. It's not that simple. It's much easier to accidentally teach a dog to pull than to walk on a loose leash or to correct it after they have learned a bad habit. If a prong makes that easier, I don't see what the big deal is or why it always becomes major disagreement. I began using one with my first German Shepherd when a class trainer noticed my dog wasn't responding to commands. The prong was like a magic pill. It worked and training continued. I didn't need one again until I began fostering adult dogs that had never been leashed before and would have spent the rest of their lives indoors or locked in a yard because no one could get them from one place to another, or even worse, PTS. The prong worked. Those of you who have trained many puppies and have more experience and learned from mistakes don't need one. The rest who either rescue or who get a new puppy once every 12-14 years, aren't going to have the same kind of training skills. I've been to a lot of different trainers, and very few teach proper leash walking. I haven't figured out why.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> Everyone wants their dogs to walk well on the leash. It's not that simple. It's much easier to accidentally teach a dog to pull than to walk on a loose leash or to correct it after they have learned a bad habit. If a prong makes that easier, I don't see what the big deal is or why it always becomes major disagreement. I began using one with my first German Shepherd when a class trainer noticed my dog wasn't responding to commands. The prong was like a magic pill. It worked and training continued. I didn't need one again until I began fostering adult dogs that had never been leashed before and would have spent the rest of their lives indoors or locked in a yard because no one could get them from one place to another, or even worse, PTS. The prong worked. Those of you who have trained many puppies and have more experience and learned from mistakes don't need one. The rest who either rescue or who get a new puppy once every 12-14 years, aren't going to have the same kind of training skills. I've been to a lot of different trainers, and very few teach proper leash walking. I haven't figured out why.


Yes and no. I learned one very effective method of teaching loose leash walking taught to me by a K9 trainer when the care of somebody else's rescue adult male, intact, hard headed, dominant, aggressive, leash pulling Rottweiler fell into my hands. No prong, just a flat collar, little time and diligence.


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yes and no. I learned one very effective method of teaching loose leash walking taught to me by a K9 trainer when the care of somebody else's rescue adult male, intact, hard headed, dominant, aggressive, leash pulling Rottweiler fell into my hands. No prong, just a flat collar, little time and diligence.


I'm working on that now. It takes a lot of time and diligence. You can't ever let the dog get away with it even once. If someone else takes the leash, like a family member, and isn't exactly the same, you've lost it all. Our trainer does teach it, which is the method I'm trying to perfect. I am my own worst challenge!


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm working on that now. It takes a lot of time and diligence. You can't ever let the dog get away with it even once. If someone else takes the leash, like a family member, and isn't exactly the same, you've lost it all. Our trainer does teach it, which is the method I'm trying to perfect. I am my own worst challenge!


It is hard to teach when there are multiple handlers with different ideas. Don't be so hard on yourself. Just keep the leash in your hands.


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## carmspack

quote "Everyone has different opinions on everything down to shoe laces- makes for much drama for some."

hey my son , may 12 / 13 at the time , did train one of my young males with his hockey skate laces !
I was always within sight and hearing range. We were busy building a paddock for the horses and the rain would not let up . I was there bailing out buckets of water from the post holes so that the timbers could be set .

exceptionally easy dog to train . Carmspack Joker

the training stuck - 

henricus in another thread said that pinch collars were going to be banned (Holland?) --- I am not sure what he said about slip collars.

if you are going to use equipment , no matter what , USE it . This is a mini-rant for those that think that a prong collar makes a dog look tough--- so they have BIG chunky links and the collar is swimming around the dog's shoulders -- absolutely useless . 
Same goes for backwards slip collars and flat collars that the dog can back out of -- yoke sized leather fit for a plough horse.

Use your attentive readiness , your voice , your collar , be effective , then you will see that you will have control , self-regulation from the dog , and need less of all -- just reminders and fine tuning.
This only works if you are consistent.


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is hard to teach when there are multiple handlers with different ideas. Don't be so hard on yourself. Just keep the leash in your hands.


Hard to work in hot weather, too, but no more excuses, just results.


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## selzer

For all the folks with injuries to shoulders, hands, wrists, arms -- great reason to start teaching your puppy to walk politely on lead from the get go, not to excuse the prong collar. Because, I found I simply could not put the darn thing on with my wrist surgically modified. 

If you are petite, or disabled, train the dog, work with the dog daily. Do not take a dog you cannot control outside of a fence. 

Frankly, I don't care about the dog at all -- age, temperament, etc. If you start from the moment you get the dog, and are consistent, follow through, patient, have realistic expectations, you won't need a prong collar, and you will be able to walk your dog regardless of your physical size/strength. We are humans, they are dogs. 

Why can a 7 year old handle a schutzhund dog -- powerful dog with high drive, very motivated, and on? Because she is the human, the dog is the dog, and she has worked with the dog. W

e use our brains, not our brawn. We use consistency, patience, voice, inner strength, and we build that respect between the dog and ourself. Yes, you can get respect of a form by providing physical corrections to a dog through a collar if they are properly timed and consistent. The dog probably won't even resent it. And after a while the dog will probably do what you demand, with or without the collar, because the dog has a form of respect for you. 

I'm not looking for that. 

I am not looking to physically dominate my dogs, or to physically prove that I hold all the important cards. When necessary, I will force a dog to do what it is I need to have happen. I will grab and guide a youngster where I want him, or hold one and continue to clip toenails. It's not to be mean, it is because it needs to be done. The mats in Moofy's long coat, up under his belly. I have to get them out, it isn't fun, but I am not going to take and guff about it. I certainly am not going to let a raised lip or grumble give him what he wants -- to be done with the brushes. So, sometimes, I just have to plow on. But I am sure to tell him he is a good boy, as I am digging through, so long as he is cooperative. 

I read stuff on here, clip a toenail, give a treat. Do one paw a night. Bunk. Put the dog on a grooming table, bed or couch, tie if necessary, and quickly cut all of them. If you nick one, don't make a big deal about it. Just complete the job, and THEN say, "What a good boy you are!" Happy face. 

But we are talking about walking. 

I like Rally to train loose leash walking. In obedience, they call it doodling. But it is hard to explain doodling to a newbie, where Rally is something they can take a class in, and train and practice the various signs. 

How do we train Stay? We train the sit or the down first, without a stay. Then we say STAY with a hand command. Then we move right in front of the dog. We pause, maybe say STAY again and move back. With time we increase time and distance, and lose the reminder to stay before going back. Then we start adding distractions. We maybe stoop to tie our shoe. We have a person walk behind the dogs. We might have a person with a dog walk come in and sit, or walk by. We introduce noises. I like to start to run away from the dog. Then we come back and praise the dog. If the dog breaks that stay we go back a few steps, stay a little closer, practice a little more. 

But to train heeling, we put a leash on the dog and we go for a walk and walk 150 feet down the street, and then turn a corner and walk forever down the street. 

Instead, try training in rally. Walk 6 steps and then stop sit, good boy. Walk five more steps and turn right. Walk 7 steps, and then weave through some cones. Walk another 4 steps, and a 360 right. 5 steps, and a 270 left. Go fast. Normal. Stop and down. move a few more steps, and then come front, and return around your dog. You change so much that your dog has to follow your movements to stay with you. Yes, you start out maybe with a tight lead, but as you move with confidence, plenty of praise, you can get your dog to feel comfortable right next to you. 

The kids were working the dogs on Sunday. But I gave them a break. These are youngsters, puppies really -- moof is an adult now but barely. I took the two of them and went for the weave, the platform, the jump, the tunnel -- they did it with me loose lead and heeling. 

Sometimes you have to throw your heart over that jump, and the horse will follow. If you lead like you know what you are doing, the dog will be a lot more likely to follow your lead. 

I was at a horse show on the 7th. The last time I did anything with horses was 37 years ago when I had a couple of classes at age 10. My niece asked me to help her with this morgan/percheron cross -- big horse. hooves like dinner plates. massive. I thought, "mind over matter." I knew that if this horse thought I didn't know what I was doing, it could be a lot more difficult, so I grabbed the bridle under his chin and started walking him back to their site. The horse walked along with me like we've been doing this all his life. Probably just a nice, well-trained horse. I don't care. Nice well-trained horses have planted their feet and refused to move with people that don't know what the heck they are doing. 

I think we are coddling dogs too much. We are expecting problems and creating problems. We are giving dogs no reason to respect us. We lack consistency and patience and timing, and when we do screw up we make mountains out of molehills, and our dogs think we are totally out of our minds. We create problems. 

We need to relax and work on be steady, consistent, confident, and stop worrying so much about corrections. What worked for me, was understanding that if my dog did it wrong, I did not communicate to the dog clearly enough, my fault. I need to try again and get that dog from point b to point a, so that I can praise the dog. Success builds confidence in me, in the dog, and builds respect, real respect.


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## WIBackpacker

selzer said:


> For all the folks with injuries to shoulders, hands, wrists, arms -- great reason to start teaching your puppy to walk politely on lead from the get go, not to excuse the prong collar. Because, I found I simply could not put the darn thing on with my wrist surgically modified.
> 
> If you are petite, or disabled, train the dog, work with the dog daily. Do not take a dog you cannot control outside of a fence.
> 
> Frankly, I don't care about the dog at all -- age, temperament, etc. If you start from the moment you get the dog, and are consistent, follow through, patient, have realistic expectations, you won't need a prong collar, and you will be able to walk your dog regardless of your physical size/strength. We are humans, they are dogs.


I respectfully disagree. Specifically in cases where the human is physically injured.

The dog I mentioned is my veteran herding dog. She can gather livestock from an open field (no collar, no leash), spends most of her days in a retail store with coworkers, clients, and cats (no leash), ran agility (no collar, no leash) and has traveled all over this country with me from Hiltons to hostels. This isn't an unruly dog that spends her life on the sharp end of a rope. She was with me when I broke my leg - she helped pull me and my gear to a road. No leash. When it came time to get back out there and rebuild atrophied muscles, she wore the collar that I put on her. 

When there is zero tolerance for a misstep or an inquisitive sniff, tools exist. No one should be ashamed of fair and correct use of tools.


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## MineAreWorkingline

WIBackpacker said:


> I respectfully disagree. Specifically in cases where the human is physically injured.
> 
> The dog I mentioned is my veteran herding dog. She can gather livestock from an open field (no collar, no leash), spends most of her days in a retail store with coworkers, clients, and cats (no leash), ran agility (no collar, no leash) and has traveled all over this country with me from Hiltons to hostels. This isn't an unruly dog that spends her life on the sharp end of a rope. She was with me when I broke my leg - she helped pull me and my gear to a road. No leash. When it came time to get back out there and rebuild atrophied muscles, she wore the collar that I put on her.
> 
> When there is zero tolerance for a misstep or an inquisitive sniff, tools exist. No one should be ashamed of fair and correct use of tools.


No disrespect intended, but if your dog was so reliable off leash, why did you not walk her off leash just when you needed it most?


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## WIBackpacker

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No disrespect intended, but if your dog was so reliable off leash, why did you not walk her off leash just when you needed it most?


No worries, no disrespect taken.

It took many slow miles back and forth on the residential street I live on before we could get back to bumpy unpaved trails. IMHO an injury isn't a Carte Blanche that allows you to disobey suburban leash laws, so we followed local rules.


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## selzer

If the dog is reliable off lead, why does it need a prong collar at all? That suggests that the prong, instead of training a dog to walk politely at your side, actually teaches a dog that when it is connected to a collar that is not a prong, it can pull and act out. To me, that doesn't sound like good commercial for using a prong. 

Look, somehow I made it to 47 without needing a prong. Been through a number of surgeries without having to use a prong. Have trained at least 25 dogs from puppy on up without a prong collar and have trained dogs who have been trained with prong collars, without them. It is a tool I object to. Sorry. I object because most of the time, people put them on dogs, and the dog is suddenly good enough, and other training becomes no longer necessary. The Band-Aid or Crutch is used because people erroneously believe that their dog is more whatever than an ordinary dog and needs it. And, if that crutch breaks, then you have a dog with little training running around under no ones control. 

Train your dogs. And you don't need tools. Wait, train yourselves, and you won't need tools. Discipline yourselves and your dogs will come right along. But no one wants to hear that. So carry on. shock them, zap them, poke them, tsssssst them. In spite of ourselves, and in spite of the training wheels, we do generally improve and find dogs down the line easier to manage. We do. All the best trainers that I have dealt with over the years have started with choke chains. As they got better, they started incorporating more positive methods. Most still approve of prongs. but are no longer die-hard fans of the approaches that they used in training when they began. 

I can only hope that some of you that fight so hard every time someone disagrees with the use of these collars (obviously it's touching a nerve, otherwise, this would be my opinion, and you would have yours, and everyone would be ok with that), well, I hope that you grow in your training to the point where you can see that it is more the human side of the leash that has the issue, and as that improves the need for _tools _goes away.


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## dogma13

It's no longer a discussion where we exchange ideas and perspectives when someone becomes dogmatic.Really disappointing.


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## Nica'sDad

kudo's to the OP for not taking stronger action against the woman who accosted her in the graveyard. I'm not so sure I would have been that patient. 


Our trainer explained that the prong provides even pressure around the majority of the neck as opposed to the single line of pressure across the throat from a regular collar and as a result was a much safer tool for the dog during initial training. Once she was fully trained we used a loose leash and regular collar as she never pulled on it. But while I was training or on her initial times out in public (soccer games etc.) I had a few people comment on them and I would unsnap it and show them the rounded edges (many people assumed they were the sharpened type) and explained about pressure around the neck as a whole and the safety of that over a single "line" of pressure across the throat. Many times I got a "that makes sense" or "thanks for explaining that" comment. 


I did always get kind of a chuckle (maybe just relief? ha) watching the chaos of people being dragged all over by their dogs while Nica just laid there quietly next to us.


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## selzer

Nica'sDad said:


> kudo's to the OP for not taking stronger action against the woman who accosted her in the graveyard. I'm not so sure I would have been that patient.
> 
> 
> Our trainer explained that the prong provides even pressure around the majority of the neck as opposed to the single line of pressure across the throat from a regular collar and as a result was a much safer tool for the dog during initial training. Once she was fully trained we used a loose leash and regular collar as she never pulled on it. But while I was training or on her initial times out in public (soccer games etc.) I had a few people comment on them and I would unsnap it and show them the rounded edges (many people assumed they were the sharpened type) and explained about pressure around the neck as a whole and the safety of that over a single "line" of pressure across the throat. Many times I got a "that makes sense" or "thanks for explaining that" comment.
> 
> 
> I did always get kind of a chuckle (maybe just relief? ha) watching the chaos of people being dragged all over by their dogs while Nica just laid there quietly next to us.


One can certainly train a dog without a prong and not be dragged all over. 

As for the physics of prong collars, well, a collar has a 1/2 or 5/8 or 3/4 or 1" strip of leather or nylon by 17 - 23 inches in length. Even if the majority of the pressure is located at the throat area -- probably an arc of at least 1/3 of the dog's neck size, say 18" and let's go with a 1/2" collar, even though most are at least 3/4". So, what you have for area is 3 square inches ( 18in/3 x .5in). Now, the prong collar, let's say one with 2.25 mm diam prongs -- supposed to be large enough to not cause damage -- this is about .088 inches, so let's round up to .1 inch. let's multiply that by the number of prongs, on an 18 inch collar, let's say 2 prongs per 1.5 inch , so (18/1.5)2 = 24, which would be 2.4 inches of total area. 

Now in reality, you probably have fewer than 24 prongs around the dog's neck, so that makes the pounds per square inch pressure on each prong even higher. And my smallest collars are 5/8", most are 3/4" so that would even be fewer psi on the area that the collar connects with. 

And a martingale functions like a prong, applying pressure around the entire neck, without the points. So, it is providing 360 degrees of area, rather than the 120 degrees that this example suggested, with a flat collar. So the whole idea that the prong is less likely to do injury than a flat collar or a martingale is bunk. 

But whatever. Everyone who finds them necessary wants to feel warm and fuzzy about them. The reason the dog does not pull with them is because it is uncomfortable to pull with them. The dog is learning through avoiding something uncomfortable. If that is what you want, it certainly does work, and is nothing new when it comes to training animals.


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## Slamdunc

A martingale collar does not function like a prong collar. A flat collar can cause injury to a dog as well. A choke chain can cause serious injury to a dog. A prong used properly and fitted correctly should not cause any injury to a dog. 

It really depends on the dog, the handler and the goals the handler has. Some dogs can not be trained on a flat collar or a martingale. Harder dogs, higher drive dogs and stronger dogs even with experienced trainers would be nearly impossible to train on a flat collar or martingale for demanding work, high level sport or just pets. Few people have GSD's like this but some do. For the novice or average handler a prong can be very beneficial to make an energetic dog more enjoyable to take on a walk. 

There is nothing wrong or inhumane about a prong collar used correctly.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Agree, seems like a big misconception that martingales train in some way. As far as I have ever heard, and as far as I could ever tell by my own extensive use of martingale (think I have had one on every dog I have ever owned or handled)

they serve one very important purpose: the dog cannot back out of the collar either because they know how to do that or because they panic and shoot backwards.

I have had several dogs who knew how to back out of a collar if they decided they didn't want to go somewhere or do something, and martingales are life savers for those dogs.

When I leash walk boarder dogs I always use a martingale for extra safety because I am NOT losing someone's dog if it was preventable by any means I had.

I see the properly fitted martingale doing zero correction or training other than letting the dog know backing out of the collar is no longer an option.

I absolutely believe prongs have an important place in the training tool kit.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I would even go so far as to say sometimes it is more inhumane to let a dog hang on a flat collar till they start gagging rather than put them on a prong and teach them to get off the collar


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## car2ner

At this point I put on the prong and the martingale. I may connect the leash to just the martingale if everyone is calm. The collar is there to remind the dog of it's limits and to carry their ID (they are chipped, too). They have the prong collar on and it only get hooked to the leash if things get a bit too exciting and some discomfort reminds that they can't just go bolting off. 
In a perfect world they would walk by our side off leash, but drat, it is not a perfect world yet.


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## Steve Strom

Nica'sDad said:


> kudo's to the OP for not taking stronger action against the woman who accosted her in the graveyard. I'm not so sure I would have been that patient.
> 
> 
> Our trainer explained that the prong provides even pressure around the majority of the neck as opposed to the single line of pressure across the throat from a regular collar and as a result was a much safer tool for the dog during initial training. Once she was fully trained we used a loose leash and regular collar as she never pulled on it. But while I was training or on her initial times out in public (soccer games etc.) I had a few people comment on them and I would unsnap it and show them the rounded edges (many people assumed they were the sharpened type) and explained about pressure around the neck as a whole and the safety of that over a single "line" of pressure across the throat. Many times I got a "that makes sense" or "thanks for explaining that" comment.
> 
> 
> I did always get kind of a chuckle (maybe just relief? ha) watching the chaos of people being dragged all over by their dogs while Nica just laid there quietly next to us.


You always want to train with the least amount of conflict possible. Some dogs are just more compliant so the flat collar can work, some dogs are just not as compliant and they're a lot more motivated to do things their own way, the flat collar is going to leave grey areas and create conflict. Its not about needing a prong or e, its about getting the best results for that dog.


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## Heartandsoul

I just want to add my own very different and positive experience with the prong. I researched for months about it because I was in the "it's a torture device" mindset but I had to get a handle on his and my strength differences. 

Putting that prong on him made me so much more aware of how much pressure I was actually applying to his neck. I was way more conscientious about keeping that darn leash completely loose. Made me think of just how much pressure I was putting on him while he was wearing a flat collar. As a result of at least willing to learn and try something that I really didn't want to do, I became a much better handler all around. There were some blunders during the learning curve but I already knew he was a hard but forgiving dog. He wouldn't crumble or shut down and he wouldn't come up the leash at me.

What,is amazing due to the prong collar is that now he is very responsive to slight pressure when wearing the flat collar and collar corrections are few and far between at this point. 

And I'll repeat what many who use the prong have said , my boy come running to me with the happy face when he hears the prong jingling in my hand. It's an unintentional trained response based on positive experiences that he always has when the prong goes on. I don't need any other proof that the prong for us was a good thing.


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## Muskeg

Prongs aren't a go-to for every dog, sure. But if you have a dog who is a reactive or aggressive and you want to train him to be out in public, in other words to be able to just be a dog- you need some way of _effectively_ punishing what you don't want.

Prongs can cause conflict and redirection or handler aggression in some dogs. Particularly if the handler is not large physically and the dog is powerful and big. For example, with my 93 lb malinois, I would not use a prong for correction for several reasons, one being conflict and the other being I could not issue a meaningful correction due to my relative strength and size. For him, I worked to build a working relationship based on trust. I built a default behavior of returning to heel when he started getting aroused or reactive toward something. Then I layered in the language of corrections, and also worked to extinguish certain behaviors (car chasing-reactivity) with the e-collar. 

I realize the dogs I live with and train are slightly unusual for the average female handler, but they are not bonkers. You can have an aggressive, protective dog who is not crazy or wrong for the breed. But if you have a dog like this, and you want him to enjoy, say, hiking on public trails or time at the beach, you need to use something more than a flat collar and voice corrections.

It's just how it is. If you met my boy, you'd realize why. I'm sure SlamDunc and others know this variety of dog well. He'd do perfectly fine as a border guard dog... but he's my companion animal. So I researched and took the advice of the best trainer I know, and applied it. 

It's not always the "weak" handler using tools like prong and e-collar. And I always agree with trainers who say use the right tool for each individual dog- there is no one tool or method that will work best in every situation.


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## cheffjapman

When we first got Arrow, we picked up a chain "choker" collar because she was a bear to walk. It didn't help. We had dozens of people tell us how cruel we were for using one. We eventually came to believe it. Then one day, I was at the park with Arrow and she was doing her thing, pulling, acting crazy. I saw a lady with a GSD that was just hanging out with her. I went to chat and noticed that she had a choker. I asked for advice and she informed me that I had been going about training all wrong and had been using the collar wrong. She took her dog off leash and slipped the collar on Arrow. No exaggeration...in 2 minutes she had Arrow walking in a heel position with a loose lead. I started talking with her, and she has been training GSD's for 25 years. She rescues, trains and rehabilitates and then adopts them out. Needless to say, I asked if she would help us train. She comes to our home once a week now and helps us train Arrow and General (who both use a choker collar). And they both are doing great with their training.

Now when someone says "Why are you using such a cruel collar?" I tell my dogs to sit, which they do, and then explain to that person that if they think they are cruel, they are using it wrong.

There are two other things I wish people would mind their own business about:
1. My GSD is not going to "rip your leg off" for walking in the general vicinity of us. Yes, I have had multiple people ask me that. I've also had people turn and walk a different direction than us. And this is with Arrow, who is just 52ish lbs. Today is the first day we are taking General out to a public place other than around our neighborhood...and he dwarfs Arrow, so tonight might be interesting).
2. Just because Arrow doesn't weigh 100 lbs, does not mean she isn't a GSD. If a person doesn't ask "Is she going to rip my leg off?" I guarantee that they are going to say "She's really little...are you sure she's a German Shepherd?" I usually respond with a simple "Yes, she's actually standard size." and walk off.

I don't mind when people want to have a real conversation...****, that is how I found my trainer! But when these people come up and just start spouting off crap, I get really irritated! Just mind your business!


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## car2ner

I had a ridgie mix that I trained with a flat collar and a "choke collar". She was very smart and it only took one time with the collar up high on her neck to show her to pay attention. If she heard the jingle of the links sliding through the ring, it signaled to her to check herself. The choke collar never choked her. Almost her entire life with us, the collar was actually loose. Of course, this was back-in-the-day when it was normal to see these collars on dogs.

You need the right tool for the dog you have in front of you.


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## Nigel

selzer said:


> One can certainly train a dog without a prong and not be dragged all over.
> 
> As for the physics of prong collars, well, a collar has a 1/2 or 5/8 or 3/4 or 1" strip of leather or nylon by 17 - 23 inches in length. Even if the majority of the pressure is located at the throat area -- probably an arc of at least 1/3 of the dog's neck size, say 18" and let's go with a 1/2" collar, even though most are at least 3/4". So, what you have for area is 3 square inches ( 18in/3 x .5in). Now, the prong collar, let's say one with 2.25 mm diam prongs -- supposed to be large enough to not cause damage -- this is about .088 inches, so let's round up to .1 inch. let's multiply that by the number of prongs, on an 18 inch collar, let's say 2 prongs per 1.5 inch , so (18/1.5)2 = 24, which would be 2.4 inches of total area.
> 
> Now in reality, you probably have fewer than 24 prongs around the dog's neck, so that makes the pounds per square inch pressure on each prong even higher. And my smallest collars are 5/8", most are 3/4" so that would even be fewer psi on the area that the collar connects with.
> 
> And a martingale functions like a prong, applying pressure around the entire neck, without the points. So, it is providing 360 degrees of area, rather than the 120 degrees that this example suggested, with a flat collar. So the whole idea that the prong is less likely to do injury than a flat collar or a martingale is bunk.
> 
> But whatever. Everyone who finds them necessary wants to feel warm and fuzzy about them. The reason the dog does not pull with them is because it is uncomfortable to pull with them. The dog is learning through avoiding something uncomfortable. If that is what you want, it certainly does work, and is nothing new when it comes to training animals.


What example are you referring to? 

The pressure applied directly over the trachea is a significant source for damage caused by pulling. A quality proper fitting prong does not make contact with the trachea, there are no prongs located in this part of the collar to make contact. The design of the collar itself discourages pulling there by reducing the amount of pressure the dog will apply in the first place. Less pressure and no contact to sensitive areas, less likely to cause damage? Sounds plausible to me.


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## Thecowboysgirl

most herm Sprengers have the prongs starting out in opposite directions from the trachea with a gap there. 

But as was just said, the biggest way the prong protects the trachea in my opinion would be the superficial discomfort motivating the dog not to lean on the collar 

I do not know why the skin pinch from the prong is unacceptable to the dog but leaning into the collar until he gags, is. But it is. 

Prongs are not perfect, there are downsides to them just like anything else. I think they are best used with a good trainer.

I have judiciously used a prong and an e collar on my fairly soft and sensitive dog and the results are very good. Same tools with a little less care could have been horrible for him. Care and training for the handler is important


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## selzer

Slamdunc said:


> A martingale collar does not function like a prong collar. A flat collar can cause injury to a dog as well. A choke chain can cause serious injury to a dog. A prong used properly and fitted correctly should not cause any injury to a dog.
> 
> It really depends on the dog, the handler and the goals the handler has. Some dogs can not be trained on a flat collar or a martingale. Harder dogs, higher drive dogs and stronger dogs even with experienced trainers would be nearly impossible to train on a flat collar or martingale for demanding work, high level sport or just pets. Few people have GSD's like this but some do. For the novice or average handler a prong can be very beneficial to make an energetic dog more enjoyable to take on a walk.
> 
> There is nothing wrong or inhumane about a prong collar used correctly.


The martingale and the prong tighten around the whole neck the same, it is the same set up, but without the points. The ones I use are leather or nylon with a chain just like the prong chain in the back.

The martingale is NOT a correction collar. That is true. It is used simply to keep a dog from backing out of a flat collar. If you have it high on the neck and properly fitted like you would a prong it gives you a little more control than if it is sitting low on the neck and worthlessly loose. But using it to deliver corrections or to drive a dog where you want him to go, what you want him to do, it is not the same as a prong. 

If you need a different methodology for a dog who WILL come up the leash at the handler when it feels a correction is unwarranted or for whatever reason, than why not use that other method, the building of a working relationship with the dog, with ALL dogs? 

The thing is, people are not using prong collars for just dogs that are hard in personality and need to be shown that a handler MUST be obeyed to respect them. They are being used on spaniels and labs and goldens and pointers, and every other kind of dog out there. And that spaniel was the same age as my werewolf. 

I am sorry, but a springer is not waiting for you to show your weakness, they are not going to drag you down the street after a squirrel.

I call baloney to just about every argument for them, including the small handlers, women handlers, and newbie handlers. My nieces could handle my dog that weighed twice what he weighed at the IX center among thousands of dogs, on a martingale. They're newbies (actually they have never owned a dog), they are girls, and they weighed 40 pounds or less. The dog was 20 months old. 

I just don't buy it. I don't run up to people and tell them they are going to the Fiery Pit for using them. None of my business. I only take offense when people say things like, "it's better than watching people being dragged down the street" like without a prong collar, I am being dragged around by my dogs. That's nuts. Or, "well, sooner or later, you are going to have to use a prong on him." Baloney, I have trained enough dogs and have not had to use them on any of them. Or, "well you can't train everything by shoving a cookie at the dog" LOL! The people sporting prong collars use a lot more cookies than I ever have. Or, it does less damage than other types of collars. I just don't think so. 

There has been one study done, funded by the makers of prong collars most likely. And yes, if you hang a dog by a choke chain, until they are unconscious -- used to be a training technique for tough dogs -- yeah, you may have a problem with the trachea. But I have never injure a trachea yet, and I have used a slip collar (choke chain) a few times. (They are legal in the AKC ring, but you cannot give corrections during trials, so if I can't find my martingale (show lead), I'll throw a choker on them.) I think head collars probably will pull a dog out of alignment if you forget and try to correct with them. Otherwise, a flat collar or a martingale is NOT less humane than a prong. I am not objecting to the use, just the baloney.


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## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> most herm Sprengers have the prongs starting out in opposite directions from the trachea with a gap there.
> 
> But as was just said, the biggest way the prong protects the trachea in my opinion would be the superficial discomfort motivating the dog not to lean on the collar
> 
> I do not know why the skin pinch from the prong is unacceptable to the dog *but leaning into the collar until he gags, is. But it is*.
> 
> Prongs are not perfect, there are downsides to them just like anything else. I think they are best used with a good trainer.
> 
> I have judiciously used a prong and an e collar on my fairly soft and sensitive dog and the results are very good. Same tools with a little less care could have been horrible for him. Care and training for the handler is important


Who says it is? 

Just because half the dog-owning population cannot manage to produce a dog that walks on a loose leash with a flat collar does not mean that it is ok to let the dog lean against the collar gagging himself! 

Whatever. This is probably why way too many people can't even manage to get a Rally title on their dog. They can't take the training wheels off without the dog dragging them from station to station. If the dog is pulling, don't let him. It isn't rocket science. It is called training. Too many people want to avoid that bond-building step and go right to the power steering. Lack of training is lack of training whether the dog is is gaging on a flat collar or walking along on a prong. I object to the lack of training.


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## car2ner

selzer said:


> Who says it is?
> 
> Just because half the dog-owning population cannot manage to produce a dog that walks on a lose leash with a flat collar does not mean that it is ok to let the dog lean against the collar gagging himself!
> 
> Whatever. This is probably why way too many people can't even manage to get a Rally title on their dog. They can't take the training wheels off without the dog dragging them from station to station. If the dog is pulling, don't let him. It isn't rocket science. It is called training. Too many people want to avoid that bond-building step and go right to the power steering. Lack of training is lack of training whether the dog is is gaging on a flat collar or walking along on a prong. I object to the lack of training.


It seems that too many people don't train their dogs, no matter what the breed. I'm beginning to lose count how many times I hear "I wish my dogs behaved like yours". It makes me feel good, but sad at the same time. Yes, we do recommend a prong to folks with big strong dogs but it is not a magic wand. It takes working with their dogs. Many people come home from work and barely spend time with family members never mind their dogs. If their dog snuggles with them on the couch, they are happy. Then the poor dog is condemned to stay locked away at home because they barely know how to behave in public.


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## Muskeg

Selzer- I agree with much of what you say about training a dog, and that few people put in even a little time to train their pet the basics.

But that's a bigger picture problem and has little to do with tools. 

I'm not a huge fan of prongs, myself- I don't use them a lot. However, I had a neighbor in grad school who had a pitbull and husky that she "inherited" from her son. The dogs were constantly barking and lunging on their tie outs. She really wanted to do the right thing by the dogs but was overpowered trying to take them on walks. She asked me about how she could do this safely, and 
I suggested prong collars. This was an older woman with no dog experience. I helped her with the basics of collar fit and showed her how to use the collars. The dogs were happier with walks, she was safe and in control, she was happier, the neighborhood was happier. I can't say that is a mis-use of the prong. This woman was trying her best to give these dogs a good life. 

Consistent, clear, fair, training that works is fine with me no matter what tools are used as long as there is no abuse.


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## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> The martingale and the prong tighten around the whole neck the same, it is the same set up, but without the points. The ones I use are leather or nylon with a chain just like the prong chain in the back.
> 
> The martingale is NOT a correction collar. That is true. It is used simply to keep a dog from backing out of a flat collar. If you have it high on the neck and properly fitted like you would a prong it gives you a little more control than if it is sitting low on the neck and worthlessly loose. But using it to deliver corrections or to drive a dog where you want him to go, what you want him to do, it is not the same as a prong.
> 
> If you need a different methodology for a dog who WILL come up the leash at the handler when it feels a correction is unwarranted or for whatever reason, than why not use that other method, the building of a working relationship with the dog, with ALL dogs?
> 
> The thing is, people are not using prong collars for just dogs that are hard in personality and need to be shown that a handler MUST be obeyed to respect them. They are being used on spaniels and labs and goldens and pointers, and every other kind of dog out there. And that spaniel was the same age as my werewolf.
> 
> I am sorry, but a springer is not waiting for you to show your weakness, they are not going to drag you down the street after a squirrel.
> 
> I call baloney to just about every argument for them, including the small handlers, women handlers, and newbie handlers. My nieces could handle my dog that weighed twice what he weighed at the IX center among thousands of dogs, on a martingale. They're newbies (actually they have never owned a dog), they are girls, and they weighed 40 pounds or less. The dog was 20 months old.
> 
> I just don't buy it. I don't run up to people and tell them they are going to the Fiery Pit for using them. None of my business. I only take offense when people say things like, "it's better than watching people being dragged down the street" like without a prong collar, I am being dragged around by my dogs. That's nuts. Or, "well, sooner or later, you are going to have to use a prong on him." Baloney, I have trained enough dogs and have not had to use them on any of them. Or, "well you can't train everything by shoving a cookie at the dog" LOL! The people sporting prong collars use a lot more cookies than I ever have. Or, it does less damage than other types of collars. I just don't think so.
> 
> There has been one study done, funded by the makers of prong collars most likely. And yes, if you hang a dog by a choke chain, until they are unconscious -- used to be a training technique for tough dogs -- yeah, you may have a problem with the trachea. But I have never injure a trachea yet, and I have used a slip collar (choke chain) a few times. (They are legal in the AKC ring, but you cannot give corrections during trials, so if I can't find my martingale (show lead), I'll throw a choker on them.) I think head collars probably will pull a dog out of alignment if you forget and try to correct with them. Otherwise, a flat collar or a martingale is NOT less humane than a prong. I am not objecting to the use, just the baloney.


Selzer you say a springer is not waiting for you to "show your weakness"...to me that has zilch to do with whether a prong is appropriate. I know some medium sized dogs---english setter, brittany, labs, off the top of my head, who will are bad pullers. One pulls so hard on a front clip harness that it rides up and chokes her. HAcking, gagging, choking. Yes it's poor training and handling on the owner's part, but with poor handling and training these dogs can be a handful. And a lot of these dogs who have become such avid pullers are "chokey" probably from damage from pulling, but not much pressure causes them to choke and gag. This type of dog can be turned around on a prong where they are no longer choking and gagging---and I just don't believe there is a problem with that. In fact I think it's the right thing to do.

Selzer you said "The thing is, people are not using prong collars for just dogs that are hard in personality and need to be shown that a handler MUST be obeyed to respect them." 

A hard dog that must be taught to obey the handler is not at all what I think of when i think of whih dog needs a prong. Not even on the long list.

For me what a prong does is it makes the cues I give with the leash more subtle, smaller, ect, so as to be easier to wean off of, in order to put the dog on basically voice control. Fine tuning. Prongs make it less comfortable for the dog to lean on a collar so if we are doing "I won't step forward with you leaning on the collar," the dog will get off it faster. Which again speeds up the process of proofing leash manners. 


The bottom line fr me is this: if you or anyone else can produce a dog that is reliably soft and light on the leash in all situations without using a prong, great! However, if you use a prong to produce the same result, good for you too. Either way you have a trained dog who can go do more stuff because they can behave. 

Dogs can become desensitized and learn to pull on prongs. Dogs can get over corrected on prongs. Why I think it is best to use one with a trainer.


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## Tennessee

Why do a lot of y'all have to dress up using a prong so much?

In the beginning it hurts, that's the point, it stops a dangerous and/or out of control behavior. 

If my toddler took off sprinting down the middle of the street after a car, I'd tan his bottom. I'd cause some pain now, to avoid potentially much worse. 

Only in this day and age would I have to justify that to a stranger lol


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## roger519

No. A swift swing mashing there nose might teach them to mind there business. It's just the way i am. I mind my own business and every one else better to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chip18

Tennessee said:


> Why do a lot of y'all have to dress up using a prong so much?
> 
> In the beginning it hurts, that's the point, it stops a dangerous and/or out of control behavior.
> 
> If my toddler took off sprinting down the middle of the street after a car, I'd tan his bottom. I'd cause some pain now, to avoid potentially much worse.
> 
> Only in this day and age would I have to justify that to a stranger lol


Where some members live ... Prong Collars are illegal to use hence the "Dress Up."


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## selzer

Chip18 said:


> Where some members live ... Prong Collars are illegal to use hence the "Dress Up."


I think, but could be wrong, but his "dress up" was the words we use, the justifications for using a prong that we make on here, and that people are giving to people on the street. 

I agree with him. If there is nothing wrong with them, why fight so hard about it? Why make so many justifications. 

When people master feeding a dog with RAW, and they realize a lot of what they have heard was propaganda, and find that their dog is healthier: eating better, pooping better, better energy, clear eyes, clean teeth, shiny coat, they want to tell the world what a great thing they have found. That it really isn't so much more difficult, it isn't so much more costly, and so forth.

That's ok with RAW feeding. But don't do that when you've found a better way to train dogs, because for some reason that isn't ok. People do not want to hear it. They do not want to make training the bases of a relationship, or to build training out of using the relationship they have with their dog. Instead they load up with excuses. You don't need an excuse. There is nothing wrong with the tool, right? There is nothing wrong with whupping the toddler's butt if it is doing something potentially fatal. 

I have nothing against negative markers, and a prong collar used correctly can communicate a negative marker clearly and effectively. I just become insane when people suggest it is necessary, without it, the dogs are going to pull, engage in dog fighting, be unmanageable, etc. 

The lady who inherited two large, unmanageable dogs? Well, I don't believe someone should own a dog they cannot manage without a prong collar. Prong collars are training collars and should ONLY be on the dog during training and walking. They should not be left on the dog 24/7. So how does a lady with 2 dogs she cannot manage without prong collars, handle them when they are not connected to their collars? What does she do when that dog slips out the door and is free in the front yard? How does she manage the dogs if a collar opens? Will the prong collar give her the edge she needs while she builds a bond with the dog and trains them? Maybe. And maybe, like so many others, she just waves the magic wand, engages the power steering, and has two large, unmanageable dogs, temporarily managed by a training collar. 

The good news is that dogs are actually pretty biddible, and they will often train themselves in spite of our lack in that area. And a lot of times that training creates a dog that is quite manageable. At the end of the day, the prong works, and with time and maturity, the dog does just fine. 

But I also see a lot of dogs that are reactive/dog aggressive, even human aggressive sometimes, and all of them are sporting prongs or e-collars. And, many of them I have been watching for over a year, some of them several years. Some of these people have been actively working with their dogs month in and month out, and the dogs are still reactive (which to me indicates a lack of trust in the owner to protect them) or dog aggressive (which to me indicates a lack of willingness to follow their human leader on who to tolerate). 

My conclusion is that many of the dogs' owners never fully develop a bond of trust with their dogs when they use the prong collars. The dog's behavior is managed, to the point where the owners rarely need to correct with them at all. But the dog's obedience is more linked to the collar, than to the human. 

But whatever. I'm still feeding kibble. Nothing I can say will make people think twice about the prong. I think the negative, torture device look of it, has spurred proponents to defend its use all the more, unwilling to hear anything negative about it. Maybe banning it and attempts to ban it have made people more defensive. And maybe people defend it more vocally when they feel they would rather not use them. And maybe there is strength in numbers, I might feel guilty for hitting my dog on the muzzle for trying to chew on a cord, but if others hit their dogs on the muzzle for this, and tell me that it is better than letting the dog electrocute himself, well then we both feel better, and we will tell others to hit their dog on the muzzle for going after the cord too.


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## Hineni7

I have no bone in this fight, but for the arguments I've heard on using more so they can use less.. I've heard it before with horses. "we use a 6" shank bit so we don't have to pull hard to stop.. He is well trained " Uh, no he isn't.. I ride with no more than a snaffle and a few ounces on the reins for slide stops, collection, pirouette, side pass, etc.. That is training. And for someone who can ride halter less with the same results, even better training.. Now that doesn't mean there isn't a place for correction and more severe reprimands, but to rely on it, for me, is not gentleness for few people have the light hands they think they do. It is a crutch for not perfecting training. 

Again, I repeat, I am not saying there isn't a place for such tools, but for me, never as a mainstay, my permanent piece of equipment, for I do truly want to 'whisper' and request my dogs/horses for obedience and not have to have a Billy club hanging over their head (so to speak) in order for me to be able to be light... For me, that is like someone always having a loaded gun pointed at me but saying 'please' and thinking there are polite and I obey with little effort on their part.. True, but, uh, loaded gun.... 

I will say, there are those in the horse world and I am sure dog world, that can and do have very very light hands and can use the heavy equipment with no repercussions to the dog. But I will submit that is very very few... Just my thoughts


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## Chip18

roger519 said:


> No. A swift swing mashing there nose might teach them to mind there business. It's just the way i am. I mind my own business and every one else better to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Or a swift pop on the top of the head with the loose end of the leash can accomplish the same thing. A tip to me from David Trainer for my hobby horse issue in front of barking dogs with Rocky. It wasn't bad ... but it was annoying! Did it once many years ago ... never had that problem since but ... corrections like that, are subject to "interpretation" ... sometimes less is more.


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## kriver

Hi 
For most dogs with a regular snout that have a power issue try a gentle leader. When introduced, put on, and used correctly it works very well and gives the owner good control. I had a prong on my dog but I never used it.
It was there strictly in case a major worse case catastrophe occurred. It was just for insurance and was never used or needed.
A prong though in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use it can be very brutally cruel. An e collar is in the same category. I challenge you to put one on and let someone shock you with it at the highest level. See and experience for yourself what you are doing to your dog. Then after that if you truly love your dog. I would just bet you would reconsider using that device.


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## selzer

kriver said:


> Hi
> For most dogs with a regular snout that have a power issue try a gentle leader. When introduced, put on, and used correctly it works very well and gives the owner good control. I had a prong on my dog but I never used it.
> It was there strictly in case a major worse case catastrophe occurred. It was just for insurance and was never used or needed.
> A prong though in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use it can be very brutally cruel. An e collar is in the same category. I challenge you to put one on and let someone shock you with it at the highest level. See and experience for yourself what you are doing to your dog. Then after that if you truly love your dog. I would just bet you would reconsider using that device.


Talk about having light hands. With a gentle leader, if you are accostomed to guiding your dog with the leash, you are likely to throw your dog's spine out of alignment with a head collar. It's not all that hard to do. I am against prongs and e-collars, really, but would recommend both before a halti or gentle leader.


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## kriver

Hi
I totally agree with you. My dogs worked and obeyed because they chose to not due to any force. They each loved every minute of training and so did I. In training if the dog or other animal isn't doing something correctly. It will ALWAYS come down to the human doing something wrong. It is the trainers failure to communicate effectively to the dog what they want them to do or it is too much too fast. It just needs to be broken down into smaller pieces so the dog can understand. It is never ever the dog's fault. Remember in dog training slow is smooth and smooth is fast.


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## LuvShepherds

Why is this an argument? Use what your dog needs with the goal of proofing and getting them off of all training collars. I had stopped using a prong, but I had one problem. My trainer fixed it in one lesson with a prong. Problem solved. I am using it temporarily until I am sure the dog is proofed, but I am not jerking my dog around. I don't need to give corrections now, I just use the zing sound as a reminder. Soon I will put it away. A head collar is dangerous and I would never use one on a German Shepherd.


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## selzer

Not an argument, a discussion.


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## LuvShepherds

Alright. I think people should use what they need to use, not worry about what everyone else is doing, with the goal of eventually not needing any training tools at all.


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## voodoolamb

kriver said:


> An e collar is in the same category. I challenge you to put one on and let someone shock you with it at the highest level. See and experience for yourself what you are doing to your dog. Then after that if you truly love your dog. I would just bet you would reconsider using that device.


Challenge accepted!!! (cause what else do I have better to do at 1am???)







Yeah... I jumped a bit at level 100. But it honestly was more of a SURPRISE jump than a pain jump. And it definitely hurt a **** of a lot less than getting bit by a rattle snake would have hurt. Which is what I have used high level e collar stims to train in the past - snake aversion. 

Hurt a lot less than getting hit by a car would too. Hurt a lot less than getting taken to a shelter and put to sleep as well. Untrained dogs get hurt and KILLED every single day. 

I can't fault anyone for using what ever tool works for them if they are using it humanely and it means they are creating a companion that is safe, obedient and able to be a part of their lives. That said... I actually haven't used an e collar on my current dog. Haven't needed to. I do believe in using physical corrections last and I have been blessed with a fairly handler sensitive dog this go around. I have used e collars in the past and definitely will again if I have a dog that would benefit from it.


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## cloudpump

kriver said:


> Hi
> For most dogs with a regular snout that have a power issue try a gentle leader. When introduced, put on, and used correctly it works very well and gives the owner good control. I had a prong on my dog but I never used it.
> It was there strictly in case a major worse case catastrophe occurred. It was just for insurance and was never used or needed.
> A prong though in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use it can be very brutally cruel. An e collar is in the same category. I challenge you to put one on and let someone shock you with it at the highest level. See and experience for yourself what you are doing to your dog. Then after that if you truly love your dog. I would just bet you would reconsider using that device.


Ha, I checked my ecollar. It's uncomfortable, but not painful. My pain threshold might be different than yours. Similar to a dog in drive, vs a dog not in drive.


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## cloudpump

voodoolamb said:


> Challenge accepted!!! (cause what else do I have better to do at 1am???)
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrgTPohzjBU
> 
> Yeah... I jumped a bit at level 100. But it honestly was more of a SURPRISE jump than a pain jump. And it definitely hurt a **** of a lot less than getting bit by a rattle snake would have hurt. Which is what I have used high level e collar stims to train in the past - snake aversion.
> 
> Hurt a lot less than getting hit by a car would too. Hurt a lot less than getting taken to a shelter and put to sleep as well. Untrained dogs get hurt and KILLED every single day.
> 
> I can't fault anyone for using what ever tool works for them if they are using it humanely and it means they are creating a companion that is safe, obedient and able to be a part of their lives. That said... I actually haven't used an e collar on my current dog. Haven't needed to. I do believe in using physical corrections last and I have been blessed with a fairly handler sensitive dog this go around. I have used e collars in the past and definitely will again if I have a dog that would benefit from it.


Not as bad as eating a cactus


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## Chip18

Aww well since the "less is more" crowd showed up ... I suppose it's my turn??? And I don't know why ... LE, MWD, or PPD folks seem to believe that they have some sort of exclusive claim,on out of control badly behaved, up leash dogs but whatever. There is no shortage of badly behaved out of control dogs where I live ... but maybe it's just me???

But the Prong Collar ... I have no dog in that fight. I would add though that a "Prong Collar can put drive into a dog or take drive out of a dog" ... it depends on how it's use. But these days all trainers seem to teach there clients how to properly use a "Prong Collar." So that much is good and now more and more seem to go straight for the "E-Collar." And most likely when either tool is used properly it works out fine??? 

Still ... I think Seltzer brings up an important point, the "Bond Thing" get's kinda sorta short circuited by those tools??? Control ... is not a Bond of Trust in my opinion.To me the dog becomes loyal to whoever has the "levera of control??" Be it Prong or E-Collar, I don't see why the "trainer ... board and train" would be any more special then the owner??? 

And a dog choking and gagging on a flat leash and regular collar ... well if that's happening ... your doing it "Wrong!" But you know I only do family pets and rescues ... and I'm not on a time line so no two week turn are required. It takes what it takes to get the job done with a minimum of "coercion." Still ... I'm a SLL guy and I use no more force than necessary, which means uh none in most cases! And with rescues ... the quicker "we" can get over the crap behavior out the gate ... the quicker we can get on with our walks! And that would be less than 5 minuets in most cases.

And for the record not ever trainer uses a "Prong or an E-Collar" to address serious aggression issues, the two I know of spend two weeks building a Bond of Trust with a dog first, before addressing issues. And then when they go to dealing with the dogs issues ... they use a DDC not an E-Collar or a Prong Collar. I know of two such trainers and apparently SuperG, knows of another I think???

And as for me, well I'm just a freak I suppose?? As I had to use my SSL as a DDC, and I needed "Behavior Modification" done in 24 hours! Breed that shall not be mentioned, with a serious, I will kill your cats if ... given the opportunity!! She never got that chance! Worked out fine sweet dog ... but I had to give her back.


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## car2ner

kriver said:


> Hi
> . I challenge you to put one on and let someone shock you with it at the highest level. See and experience for yourself what you are doing to your dog. Then after that if you truly love your dog. I would just bet you would reconsider using that device.


Our favorite trainer did this with a club member, only on the lowest setting and the collar on her wrist. She wanted her dog to respond more quickly to commands, to look snappy when trialing. So the training director brought out a chair and had her do sits and stands and heels. If she didn't respond quickly enough he gave her a zap. It didn't take long for her to decide that using the e-collar was not the right tool for her.

E-collars are good for hunting dogs. You can't use a leash in a swamp, for instance. But for day to day training it's not a tool I'd personally recommend.


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## Steve Strom

kriver said:


> Hi
> It will ALWAYS come down to the human doing something wrong.


Hi. There's no such thing as always. If there was you would have had the confidence to not put the prong on for just in case.


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## kimbale

LuvShepherds said:


> Alright. I think people should use what they need to use, not worry about what everyone else is doing, with the goal of eventually not needing any training tools at all.


Exactly. Just as the title of this thread states, people need to mind their own. I used an e-collar on Mac because she was a very stubborn yearling and would not recall and I'd prefer she not get hit by a truck, so I did what was needed to get her to recall. I think I buzzed her a total of two times, and it was definitely not on the highest setting, just enough to grab her attention and get her focus back on me. Then, when she recalled, she got lots of praise and treats. That's all she needed and I haven't had to use it on her since. 

My dad trains hunting labs, so I've grown up using e-collars. In the field we just use them to get their attention, a little buzz to let them know to come back or to call their attention back to us so we can redirect them. 

A lot of e-collar use doesn't hurt the dog at all, it's just a way to get their attention. 

Anyway, people need to focus on their dogs and what their dogs need to be successful rather than judging others. Not all dogs are the same and thus not all training will be the same.


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## LuvShepherds

kriver said:


> Hi
> For most dogs with a regular snout that have a power issue try a gentle leader. When introduced, put on, and used correctly it works very well and gives the owner good control. I had a prong on my dog but I never used it.
> It was there strictly in case a major worse case catastrophe occurred. It was just for insurance and was never used or needed.
> A prong though in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use it can be very brutally cruel. An e collar is in the same category. I challenge you to put one on and let someone shock you with it at the highest level. See and experience for yourself what you are doing to your dog. Then after that if you truly love your dog. I would just bet you would reconsider using that device.


Your post upset me a lot. A gentle leader is very dangerous for a German Shepherd. A dog that is bred to scan the horizon and always watch for threats or activity will spend an entire walk fighting the gentle leader. They are not gentle. They jerk a dog's head and can cause serious damage. A friend who trains assistance dogs showed me how to use one, so I know I was using it correctly. My dog nearly snapped her neck, trying to look at something. She became agitated and I took it off right there and never used it again. It goes against the very nature of a German Shepherd.

I don't understand why anyone makes the argument about trying an e collar on themselves. It is fallacious. E collars are not made for people, they are purposely made for the thick muscles on a dog's neck. When used correctly, they twitch the muscle, which is about the same as when a phone vibrates in someone's pocket. If they hurt, then the dog would yelp every time one is used. If you ever watched someone use one correctly, the dog does not yelp. The purpose of the e collar is to get the dog's attention and to communicate. Attitudes like the one mentioned here will ruin acceptable tools for all trainers. It is infuriating and frustrating to see misinformation spread as fact.

I want to put a young dog into dog sports, but they only allow Martingales, which are NOT training collars for GSDs, they were created to keep the collar from slipping over the head of dogs with smaller heads and larger necks, or head collars which I have already talked about. My dog, who does well around other dogs now in either an e collar or a prong, as reminders, rarely as correction tools, cannot participate in dog sports. So, instead, we spend our time on basic obedience until he can always work on a flat buckle collar. I am losing out on good training years due to his youth and enthusiasm. I visited a Rally class and the dogs there were all age 3 and older, with one exception. There was a 1 year old Rottie that would not do anything. The owner spent the entire time I was there working on focus and keeping the dog's attention. One correction in a prong would have stopped that but the club is PO and refuses to let the owner use proper tools for that kind of behavior. It is ironic to me that two of the most dangerous collars are considered compassionate and positive, when they are not at all.


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## Tennessee

selzer said:


> I think, but could be wrong, but his "dress up" was the words we use, the justifications for using a prong that we make on here, and that people are giving to people on the street.
> 
> I agree with him. If there is nothing wrong with them, why fight so hard about it? Why make so many justifications.
> 
> When people master feeding a dog with RAW, and they realize a lot of what they have heard was propaganda, and find that their dog is healthier: eating better, pooping better, better energy, clear eyes, clean teeth, shiny coat, they want to tell the world what a great thing they have found. That it really isn't so much more difficult, it isn't so much more costly, and so forth.
> 
> That's ok with RAW feeding. But don't do that when you've found a better way to train dogs, because for some reason that isn't ok. People do not want to hear it. They do not want to make training the bases of a relationship, or to build training out of using the relationship they have with their dog. Instead they load up with excuses. You don't need an excuse. There is nothing wrong with the tool, right? There is nothing wrong with whupping the toddler's butt if it is doing something potentially fatal.
> 
> I have nothing against negative markers, and a prong collar used correctly can communicate a negative marker clearly and effectively. I just become insane when people suggest it is necessary, without it, the dogs are going to pull, engage in dog fighting, be unmanageable, etc.
> 
> The lady who inherited two large, unmanageable dogs? Well, I don't believe someone should own a dog they cannot manage without a prong collar. Prong collars are training collars and should ONLY be on the dog during training and walking. They should not be left on the dog 24/7. So how does a lady with 2 dogs she cannot manage without prong collars, handle them when they are not connected to their collars? What does she do when that dog slips out the door and is free in the front yard? How does she manage the dogs if a collar opens? Will the prong collar give her the edge she needs while she builds a bond with the dog and trains them? Maybe. And maybe, like so many others, she just waves the magic wand, engages the power steering, and has two large, unmanageable dogs, temporarily managed by a training collar.
> 
> The good news is that dogs are actually pretty biddible, and they will often train themselves in spite of our lack in that area. And a lot of times that training creates a dog that is quite manageable. At the end of the day, the prong works, and with time and maturity, the dog does just fine.
> 
> But I also see a lot of dogs that are reactive/dog aggressive, even human aggressive sometimes, and all of them are sporting prongs or e-collars. And, many of them I have been watching for over a year, some of them several years. Some of these people have been actively working with their dogs month in and month out, and the dogs are still reactive (which to me indicates a lack of trust in the owner to protect them) or dog aggressive (which to me indicates a lack of willingness to follow their human leader on who to tolerate).
> 
> My conclusion is that many of the dogs' owners never fully develop a bond of trust with their dogs when they use the prong collars. The dog's behavior is managed, to the point where the owners rarely need to correct with them at all. But the dog's obedience is more linked to the collar, than to the human.
> 
> But whatever. I'm still feeding kibble. Nothing I can say will make people think twice about the prong. I think the negative, torture device look of it, has spurred proponents to defend its use all the more, unwilling to hear anything negative about it. Maybe banning it and attempts to ban it have made people more defensive. And maybe people defend it more vocally when they feel they would rather not use them. And maybe there is strength in numbers, I might feel guilty for hitting my dog on the muzzle for trying to chew on a cord, but if others hit their dogs on the muzzle for this, and tell me that it is better than letting the dog electrocute himself, well then we both feel better, and we will tell others to hit their dog on the muzzle for going after the cord too.



Correct, that was my point. 

I love dogs, I treat my GS like a princess and we're best buds. But I'm in charge, I'm the adult, my orders WILL be followed, so far I've not needed a prong collar to do that. But if I felt I did I'd use it in training, make sure it's obtained the desired effect, and move on with my life.

I don't need to jump through mental hoops to justify that to myself, and I'd chuckle at any overly concerned "fur-baby" types who just want everything to be "nice" or at least provide the appearance of such. Same with physically disciplining a child.

In the end, who's really the dummy, the person who raises a dog or child that's well mannered respectful and competent even if that means causing pain they don't really want to cause. Or the person who spares the rod and spoils the child?

** Please remember, ***** with a few letters is still swearing. Thank you.


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## WIBackpacker

*FRIENDLY MODERATOR REMINDER:*

Pseudo-swearing is against forum rules, please clean up your posts to avoid a warning.


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## Tennessee

kriver said:


> Hi
> For most dogs with a regular snout that have a power issue try a gentle leader. When introduced, put on, and used correctly it works very well and gives the owner good control. I had a prong on my dog but I never used it.
> It was there strictly in case a major worse case catastrophe occurred. It was just for insurance and was never used or needed.
> A prong though in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use it can be very brutally cruel. An e collar is in the same category. I challenge you to put one on and let someone shock you with it at the highest level. See and experience for yourself what you are doing to your dog. Then after that if you truly love your dog. I would just bet you would reconsider using that device.


LOL

I challenge you to look at your dog then look in a mirror and figure out the physiological difference that makes that statement absurd. Furthermore, it's intellectual dishonest to conflate the idea of love with never causing pain, that's not the definition of love it's weakness and a childlike all or nothing attitude. 

Just like a spank can go from a light tap on the bottom to a full on lashing with a whip, so to can an e-collar go from a tingle or buzz to a bolt of lightning thrown by Zeus from the heavens. Teaching a retriever to turn left on a long retrieve with Zeus's lightning is cruel and stupid, getting your point across to a Malinois foster that he's not to kill your cats with that same shock is a good thing. Now he gets to spend more time with you, it opens up more foster homes for him, your cat doesn't get violently torn apart and die in agony.

But according to you that's pure cruelty and the person in that scenario must HATE that foster dog. Cause remember causing pain means you can't love something. 

I swear, some people are so full of feelings they can't use logic or common sense. Sad


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## LuvShepherds

Tennessee said:


> LOL
> 
> .
> 
> I swear, some people are so full of feelings they can't use logic or common sense. Sad


It is more than sad, it's dangerous. They are seriously trying to ban prongs and e collars. If that happens, behavior problems will skyrocket and a lot of German Shepherds will end up in shelters or euthanized. Those people don't love all dogs like they claim to.


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## lhczth

*I realize this can be a rather hot topic, but please debate in a civil manner without attacking the person you disagree with. Attack ideas, not people. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## Thecowboysgirl

e collars CAN be used without real discomfort, but I don't think most dogs would be motivated to avoid or shut off stim if it wasn't unpleasant. I am not trying to say e collars aren't unpleasant, or prongs for that matter.

My whole thing is this: how educated is the dog...did it have enough education to be able to make the right decision so I didn't have to be overly heavy handed or punitive with the E Collar or prong? And if the dog DID make a bad choice does the pu ishment fit the crime? I can give a correction on a e collar if my dog thinks about blowing me off to run deer-- correction does not result in yelping, startling, fear behaviors, nothing. he knows exactly what it means and he knows exactly how to keep it from happening again and he calmly stops thinking about deer. In my opinion that is totally humane. It takes a tap at about 30 to achieve this. I taught him how to respond to the e collar on a setting in the low teens so he could get the message with minimal stress. Now he can enjoy my land safely. He loves to run free and I do believe if you could ask him if he would rather have gone through e collar training or hike on a 6' leash the rest of his life, he would choose e collar.

I believe the philosophy of the training matters a lot in the use of these tools. People to teach first in a positive way, people who take care to mitigate the stress for the dog and only give it what it can handle and still feel good about training. The relationship of dog and person...dog trusts the person not to hurt them or be unfair


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## LuvShepherds

Thecowboysgirl said:


> e collars CAN be used without real discomfort, but I don't think most dogs would be motivated to avoid or shut off stim if it wasn't unpleasant. I am not trying to say e collars aren't unpleasant, or prongs for that matter.
> 
> My whole thing is this: how educated is the dog...did it have enough education to be able to make the right decision so I didn't have to be overly heavy handed or punitive with the E Collar or prong? And if the dog DID make a bad choice does the pu ishment fit the crime? I can give a correction on a e collar if my dog thinks about blowing me off to run deer-- correction does not result in yelping, startling, fear behaviors, nothing. he knows exactly what it means and he knows exactly how to keep it from happening again and he calmly stops thinking about deer. In my opinion that is totally humane. It takes a tap at about 30 to achieve this. I taught him how to respond to the e collar on a setting in the low teens so he could get the message with minimal stress. Now he can enjoy my land safely. He loves to run free and I do believe if you could ask him if he would rather have gone through e collar training or hike on a 6' leash the rest of his life, he would choose e collar.
> 
> I believe the philosophy of the training matters a lot in the use of these tools. People to teach first in a positive way, people who take care to mitigate the stress for the dog and only give it what it can handle and still feel good about training. The relationship of dog and person...dog trusts the person not to hurt them or be unfair


I agree with everything you said. E collars must only be used by people who understand how they work, and have been trained to use them properly. They annoy the dog but not necessarily by extreme pain like some people say. It annoys them, it irritates, and it reminds them what they are supposed to be doing. It also gives them the choice, if they do what they are asked to do, the stim stops. That is why it is crucial to use them correctly. Used poorly or in anger, an e collar can be damaging, because it confuses the dog and doesn't teach them what they need to know. The handler needs to know, for example, why a dog is ignoring them. Mine once came to me and then ran off. I stopped and asked him to Show me. He ran to another spot and peed. He was smart enough to know how to tell me he needed something different. Right after, he came to me without a stim, on his own and got rewarded for that. We also need to know when the e collar is not needed. If the dog does what you ask right away, you don't need to stim, he has learned it.


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## Muskeg

Just a quick response to Selzer. My neighbor who needed a prong to control her dogs (dogs she took in from her son) on walks. OK, so maybe she shouldn't have the dogs at all. In that area of the country, the adult pitbull and husky would have been euthanized almost immediately at the local shelter. 

I'd far rather she learned how to walk her dogs using a prong. Imperfect, eh, maybe, but better than two dogs euthanized and then the personal heartbreak due to the emotional attachment with her son through these dogs. 

As for controlling the dogs- dogs were in an outdoor kennel, and she learned how to control threshold rushing. To this day, I admire this woman for working so hard to meet the needs of these dogs. I don't see many other people doing this.


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## Slamdunc

It would be really nice if some people could post some videos of their dogs working in public, doing obedience around distractions, etc. Let's see the control on their dogs, the precision, speed in recall and exercises and the joy in the work from the dog. 

Let's also see some dogs working "in drive" with serious agitation and distractions and conflict. 

As a kid I rode a skateboard, the skateboard didn't have any brakes. The skateboard simply did not have enough speed or power to require brakes. Now, I drive a car with ABS brakes, all wheel drive, high speed tires, airbags, a pursuit package and other safety enhancements. Do all cars need the latest and greatest safety features, braking and steering that this one has, probably not. Then again most people aren't required to drive the way I do on a regular basis. 

This argument gets old after a while. Fact is, most people do not have a high drive, hard dog....though many think they have Cujo on the end of their leash. It simply is not the case. Many think they have mastered dog training because their soft, low to medium drive dogs no longer barks at other dogs. Either because it got one leash pop on a flat collar or got "bonked." Because a technique worked on one easy dog, it's not an absolute. It is a "testimonial" and not a "test" of any scientific type. On forums we need to distinguish between "Test" and Testimonial." Because dogs of a particular breeding do not require a prong collar, E collar and work on a martingale that is great for you. They are great dogs for the average person, but you will not work or train them in any protection based sport with just a flat collar or martingale. If the dogs could perform you would have a very hard time handling them in real drive. 

The bottom line is that a prong or E collar used responsibly is not abusive. To say that it is abusive, shows a level of inexperience or obtuseness. At the same time, I agree that not every dog needs a prong collar or an E collar. A flat nylon collar is fine for most pets. To think that a hard correction on a choke chain or flat collar can not cause damage is very naive and also incorrect. 

I train dogs and often discourage owners from putting a prong collar on their dogs. I train a lot of GSD and Malinois pet owners in several venues. I am often asked if they should use a prong or E collar when the training first starts. For the majority of dogs, I say no and we train with a flat collar. There may come a time when we move to a prong collar after a motivational foundation has been set and we are well into the teaching / training phase. Some dogs may start with a prong collar, it depends on the dog's temperament, the handler's ability and goals. I personally do not like choke chains and will not use them. I have handlers in my unit that use them, I also have handlers that use prong collars and E collars. I show them all of the tools and educate them on how to use them. They then make the choice on what works best for their dogs. 

Because a person has a modicum of success with one training style and one or two dogs, doesn't make them an expert on all dogs or all training styles. For the novices reading this forum and looking for advice and help, please keep an open mind. Ask questions and view the information provided analytically and critically. 

There are dogs out there that can not be managed as a working dog, sport dog or even pet with a flat collar or martingale. It has nothing to do with the bond with the dog or the skill of the trainer, to think that is promoting a fallacy.


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## Steve Strom

> It would be really nice if some people could post some videos of their dogs working in public, doing obedience around distractions, etc. Let's see the control on their dogs, the precision, speed in recall and exercises and the joy in the work from the dog.
> 
> Let's also see some dogs working "in drive" with serious agitation and distractions and conflict.


Or even navigating the complexities of those orange cones. That'll show some clear distinctions too.


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## WIBackpacker

Slamdunc said:


> It would be really nice if some people could post some videos of their dogs working in public, doing obedience around distractions, etc. Let's see the control on their dogs, the precision, speed in recall and exercises and the joy in the work from the dog.
> 
> Let's also see some dogs working "in drive" with serious agitation and distractions and conflict.


I like this idea....

It also underscores something that I think gets ignored or forgotten when the collar debate flares up.

Different types of corrective collars (prong, e- or otherwise) can be used to train dogs that will ultimately be working off lead and at a real distance from the handler. Not 15' away inside a fenced controlled environment - much farther away, with distraction, conflict, and choices. 

By the very nature of this requirement, corrective collars cannot be a permanent crutch. A dog that works or trials will not be on the end of a rope forever. No solid rope, no electronic tether. At that point, the hardware hanging around the neck of the dog is irrelevant.

Either the dog was trained well enough to work reliably off lead, or it wasn't. Different tools might have been utilized to bring the dog to that point, but sooner or later the dog is either obedient, or it isn't. 

I admire dogs that work well, off-lead and in sync with the handler. Regardless of venue.

Different tools and different techniques bring different dogs to that level, and I respect that.


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## Steve Strom

Muskeg said:


> Just a quick response to Selzer. My neighbor who needed a prong to control her dogs (dogs she took in from her son) on walks. OK, so maybe she shouldn't have the dogs at all. In that area of the country, the adult pitbull and husky would have been euthanized almost immediately at the local shelter.
> 
> I'd far rather she learned how to walk her dogs using a prong. Imperfect, eh, maybe, but better than two dogs euthanized and then the personal heartbreak due to the emotional attachment with her son through these dogs.
> 
> As for controlling the dogs- dogs were in an outdoor kennel, and she learned how to control threshold rushing. To this day, I admire this woman for working so hard to meet the needs of these dogs. I don't see many other people doing this.


I just don't see any reason to justify using the best option for any particular dog. Its not as simple as "needed". There are plenty of dogs that are not going to respond to a flat collar and you playing anchor. There's just no reason to not do things in the easiest manner. It just makes no sense to on one hand say dogs have different temperaments but you'll bond exactly the same with all of them and now its all solved.


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## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> Your post upset me a lot. A gentle leader is very dangerous for a German Shepherd. A dog that is bred to scan the horizon and always watch for threats or activity will spend an entire walk fighting the gentle leader. They are not gentle. They jerk a dog's head and can cause serious damage. A friend who trains assistance dogs showed me how to use one, so I know I was using it correctly. My dog nearly snapped her neck, trying to look at something. She became agitated and I took it off right there and never used it again. It goes against the very nature of a German Shepherd.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone makes the argument about trying an e collar on themselves. It is fallacious. E collars are not made for people, they are purposely made for the thick muscles on a dog's neck. When used correctly, they twitch the muscle, which is about the same as when a phone vibrates in someone's pocket. If they hurt, then the dog would yelp every time one is used. If you ever watched someone use one correctly, the dog does not yelp. The purpose of the e collar is to get the dog's attention and to communicate. Attitudes like the one mentioned here will ruin acceptable tools for all trainers. It is infuriating and frustrating to see misinformation spread as fact.
> *
> I want to put a young dog into dog sports, but they only allow Martingales, which are NOT training collars for GSDs,* they were created to keep the collar from slipping over the head of dogs with smaller heads and larger necks, or head collars which I have already talked about. My dog, who does well around other dogs now in either an e collar or a prong, as reminders, rarely as correction tools, cannot participate in dog sports. So, instead, we spend our time on basic obedience until he can always work on a flat buckle collar. I am losing out on good training years due to his youth and enthusiasm.* I visited a Rally class and the dogs there were all age 3 and older, with one exception. There was a 1 year old Rottie that would not do anything. The owner spent the entire time I was there working on focus and keeping the dog's attention*. One correction in a prong would have stopped that but the club is PO and refuses to let the owner use proper tools for that kind of behavior. It is ironic to me that two of the most dangerous collars are considered compassionate and positive, when they are not at all.


Head collars are dangerous, yes, what is the other type you find dangerous?

I've titled dogs at a year old in rally, some younger. Most Rally classes allow any collar (no flexi-leads), but in the ring you cannot use correction collars like prongs or e-collars, so why begin with them. Most of the people I work with, actually start with the prong, and then on the day they are going to trial they put the show lead on them. Sometimes the dogs get collar-smart and won't work in the wimpy collar because he has been conditioned to require a stronger correction. 

Now, I am currently working with a 20 month old and a 7 month old in Rally. The 7 month old I am taking a break trying to get the car-sickness over with. The other dog hasn't been worked in a year and is now doing awesome. The other dogs in our class are with ordinary owners who have one dog, or one puppy they are working with, the older dogs are already done if they have an older dog. And they look good. The Rotty pup is 5 months old, his owner is into dressage with horses and agility with dogs, the Rotty is maybe the sharpest. The spaniel is a really, really nice dog. I don't know why the lady had a prong on her. I think it is a problem on the human end, maybe a health concern. She is 20 months old. I did not see a prong on her this week. The little corgi is also quite young, I think 7 months old, and she is very good -- definitely ready for the ring, very focused on the owner. I don't see a prong on that dog. The 18 month old shepherd is sporting a prong collar. She is barking at other dogs, and doing some lunging/barking. I like the dog, a pretty sable, long haired dog. And her obedience is actually good. Her focus is good. 

I left Quinnie on a down-stay (not connected to anything) while I did the walk through. The other people walked-through with their dogs, and were walking right past my dog to get to their seats. This is a dog I haven't worked with for a year, and she won't be two until October. She had 4 puppy classes and 4 foundations 1 classes early last year. And then nothing. And I don't work on things between classes either, so they get an hour on saturday or thursday and that's it. Once or twice a year I will take them somewhere and be flabbergasted that they were so good. I think people try way too hard. 

Slamdunc, forget the video. Someone took a video of Moofy the day I titled him. He was under 2. The video was of the girls working with him, awesome, because they were 8 or 9 and they had him walking and sitting and downing. They do not live with him. They don't own a dog, nor have they ever. So, it was really cool. But I could not share the darn thing. Ah well. 

You can train dogs to be rock solid without a prong. You can train dogs that are a year or under in Rally -- all the dogs on Thursday would have qualified. 

Go ahead and use your prong collars but stop the baloney about saying that they are needed, and without them, the dogs are unresponsive, or uncontrolled. It just is so untrue.


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## Whiteshepherds

LuvShepherds said:


> I want to put a young dog into dog sports, but they only allow Martingales, which are NOT training collars for GSDs, they were created to keep the collar from slipping over the head of dogs with smaller heads and larger necks, or head collars which I have already talked about.


It doesn't matter why they were originally created, you can use them for training purposes. A martingale collar allows for a quick correction without choking the dog and immediately goes back to its original state. (as opposed to a choke chain collar which doesn't always release the way they should after a quick tug)


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## LuvShepherds

In my experience a martingale correction does nothing for a dog and I nearly damaged a rescue by using one. It was a different breed, a hunting dog which I was fostering, and she had never been leash trained. The rescue said use a head collar or a Martingale. The head collar made the dog anxious, so I got a thick Martingale. This dog was a wheel chaser, cars, strollers, if it was round and flat and moved, the dog chased it. The dog tried to take off while in a Martingale and nearly choked itself. I was worried about trachea damage. I had some prongs in the closet, so I pulled one out and it was miraculous. The dog did not pull at all. I never gave a single correction, the collar did it all. I kept that dog a while until they could find a country home with a lot of open space, because the dog needed to run all the time and could not be around moving cars. They were very happy I leash trained the dog.


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## cliffson1

There is pet training and working training. They often use different tools, because pet training doesn't require the dog to be in drive and working training does. AKC trials usually is very successful with pet training, because the dog isn't in drive in their trials,( possible exception being tracking/herding), while working trials want to judge the performance in drive. The GS competes successfully in both venues, and you see the same tools predominantly in each venue. I think successful and knowledgeable pet trainers use what they do because it is best suited for the task, as well as successful and knowledgeable working people use what's best suited for their tasks. There is no right or wrong, and anybody who thinks only their way is right....is wrong,imo.


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## Sunsilver

I live about an hour from Toronto, which is trying to ban prong collars and choke chains. There was such a howl of protest over it that they are rethinking their decision, and I have joined a FB page dedicated to getitng the ban reversed.

Today the page posted pictures from a website in Australia that is trying to get the prong collar banned. Warning, the pictures are pretty graphic:

https://www.change.org/p/department-of-agriculture-and-food-wa-dafwa-and-lisa-baker-mla-for-maylands-ban-the-use-of-choke-prong-and-shock-collars-on-animals-in-western-australia?recruiter=196959086&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_content=nafta_share_post_title_en_3%3Areal_control

Here's the ACTUAL origin of the pictures: 



> First one is a picture from the "Unchain Your Pet Campaign" in Texas circa 2008, they weren't against prong collars just any form of tethering. This picture was to highlight embedded collars.
> 
> The second picture is from a Dogue de Bordeaux rescue in Yorkshire UK circa 2012, the picture of an embedded collar injury was taken in the Barnsley office of Vets4Pets. The owner of the rescue, Steve Jones, uses check chains upside down on his dogs, and makes Cesar Millan look like Mother Teresa with his training methods.
> 
> The third picture is from an e-collar used at a kennels in the USA, the dog's owner took the kennels to court and it's well documented so not a prong collar injury.
> 
> The last picture is a chemical burn from cheap Chinese flea drops. Again, not a prong collar injury.
> So 50% of these pictures aren't even prong collar related. The other 50% are from neglect, the exact opposite of training.
> It's so easy to get gulliable fools to stop thinking and start signing petitions like this, how many people who sign are even gojng to be aware of what they're looking at let alone question any of the information? Posted by Austin Ward


Reminds me of some the stunts PETA has tried to pull, like showing a picture of a bloodied (fake) lamb, in an effort to convince people that sheep-shearing is cruel. People not familiar with sheep husbandry are likely going to take the picture at face value, while someone familiar with sheep will know right away the picture is fake, because you don't shear lambs, and any shearer who was that incompetent with the shears would very quickly be out of a job!!


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## Slamdunc

selzer said:


> Head collars are dangerous, yes, what is the other type you find dangerous?
> 
> I've titled dogs at a year old in rally, some younger. Most Rally classes allow any collar (no flexi-leads), but in the ring you cannot use correction collars like prongs or e-collars, so why begin with them. Most of the people I work with, actually start with the prong, and then on the day they are going to trial they put the show lead on them. Sometimes the dogs get collar-smart and won't work in the wimpy collar because he has been conditioned to require a stronger correction.
> 
> Now, I am currently working with a 20 month old and a 7 month old in Rally. The 7 month old I am taking a break trying to get the car-sickness over with. The other dog hasn't been worked in a year and is now doing awesome. The other dogs in our class are with ordinary owners who have one dog, or one puppy they are working with, the older dogs are already done if they have an older dog. And they look good. The Rotty pup is 5 months old, his owner is into dressage with horses and agility with dogs, the Rotty is maybe the sharpest. The spaniel is a really, really nice dog. I don't know why the lady had a prong on her. I think it is a problem on the human end, maybe a health concern. She is 20 months old. I did not see a prong on her this week. The little corgi is also quite young, I think 7 months old, and she is very good -- definitely ready for the ring, very focused on the owner. I don't see a prong on that dog. The 18 month old shepherd is sporting a prong collar. She is barking at other dogs, and doing some lunging/barking. I like the dog, a pretty sable, long haired dog. And her obedience is actually good. Her focus is good.
> 
> I left Quinnie on a down-stay (not connected to anything) while I did the walk through. The other people walked-through with their dogs, and were walking right past my dog to get to their seats. This is a dog I haven't worked with for a year, and she won't be two until October. She had 4 puppy classes and 4 foundations 1 classes early last year. And then nothing. And I don't work on things between classes either, so they get an hour on saturday or thursday and that's it. Once or twice a year I will take them somewhere and be flabbergasted that they were so good. I think people try way too hard.
> 
> Slamdunc, forget the video. Someone took a video of Moofy the day I titled him. He was under 2. The video was of the girls working with him, awesome, because they were 8 or 9 and they had him walking and sitting and downing. They do not live with him. They don't own a dog, nor have they ever. So, it was really cool. But I could not share the darn thing. Ah well.
> 
> *You can train dogs to be rock solid without a prong. You can train dogs that are a year or under in Rally -- all the dogs on Thursday would have qualified.
> 
> Go ahead and use your prong collars but stop the baloney about saying that they are needed, and without them, the dogs are unresponsive, or uncontrolled. It just is so untrue.*




Selzer,
I'm not sure who this comment was directed too. Sure, dogs can be trained with out a prong collar, I never said they couldn't. I'm sure for the average GSD doing Rally, not working in in the drive state that I work dogs in, this is fine. However, make no mistake, not all dogs can be trained on a flat collar or a martingale. 

It is not _*"baloney"*_ to say that some dogs will not respond to a flat collar and that a prong is needed for certain dogs. Yes, believe it or not, some dogs will be unresponsive and uncontrolled with a martingale. This is a fact, not baloney and what happens in the real world. I use many different approaches to dog training and each is tailored to the individual dog. I also use many different tools, from a clicker and treats, to flat collars to toys and a prong collar and even an E collar. There is nothing inhumane, nothing that will harm a dog and the dogs and handlers I train are working in drive and the dog is eager to work and enjoying the training. 

I think it is time to stop condemning training techniques and tools that many use properly and have excellent results with. I understand that it is not for you and you do not use them, that is fine. While you may have good results with your dogs, not everyone has the same dogs. We need to respect each others training style as long as it is fair and not abusive. Different goals, different jobs, different needs and dogs with different temperaments require different handling and training. 

I hope we can put this debate to rest, people should be fair and consistent with their dogs. They should also use the tools that are appropriate for their training and their dog's temperament. People also need to use what ever tool or technique they choose properly. Funny, but these conversations always go to the choice of collar or method of correction. When in reality, more time should be spent on praise and reward than corrections. Few people ever talk about the praise and reward that they use or even understand how to use that powerful tool properly. It is the strongest tool we have when training dogs.


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## Chip18

Oh well ... I think it's fair to say ... that any tool improperly used ... can be abused! And in my chosen venue (work with rescues) and in my state NV ... it really does not matter how good one is with a Prong or an E-Collar. Out here they simply will not one to use those tools on there dogs. They would rather PTS, first then allow that to happen. But .... they will hand you a SLL because you know it's just a leash. 

Now if I happen to get a "Deaf Boxer" that will allow to run free in the Desert Bunny Chasing ... then yes ... I'm on board the E-Collar train, short of that ... I'm good with what I use. So yes the tool of choice depends on what you do.


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## Sunsilver

Chip, a lot of people don't realize an E-collar can be set to just 'page' the dog, using a vibration, and not a shock. And of course, that makes it ideal for using with a deaf dog!


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## Chip18

Sunsilver said:


> Chip, a lot of people don't realize an E-collar can be set to just 'page' the dog, using a vibration, and not a shock. And of course, that makes it ideal for using with a deaf dog!


Oh well ... since no one is going to change there position in there chosen field on the tool they use, moving on.

SO, I'll ask questions about a tool I don't use because I may have a "need" to do so in the future. I want to get another White Boxer and I have seen a few that look like my Struddell but they've all been deaf??? And currently everything I know how to do that helps keep my dogs and the public safe ... depends on a dogs ability to hear me ... whether they care ... is a separate issue (Boxer thing.) 

I can't let a deaf run hog butt wild in the desert with no recall??? I'll just get another dog ... does not work for me. And yes I know that E-Collars can do the vibrate thing. I also understand that you have to E-Collar condition a dog prior to it's use. I also understand that the vibrate mode can freak some dogs out??? The Deaf Dog sites I've seen ... don't mention that.

I have seen a few sites for Deaf Dogs and they ... always recommend an E-Collar set to vibrate?? My issues is that the sites I've seen always preference that advise with* E-Collars are cruel* so use on vibrate. After reading that ... I keep searching because to me, an E-Collar for "training" means a low level stim at "Working Level." And to me ... working level means working level, I don't plan to live with a deaf differently ... why would I train one with vibrate and I would not do the same with a hearing capable dog?? That ...makes no sense to me???


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## dogma13

Here's a good overview of many of the subtleties.
K9Handler.com/E-Collar Basics - K9Handler.com/


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## selzer

Slamdunc said:


> [/I][/B]
> 
> Selzer,
> I'm not sure who this comment was directed too. Sure, dogs can be trained with out a prong collar, I never said they couldn't. I'm sure for the average GSD doing Rally, not working in in the drive state that I work dogs in, this is fine. However, make no mistake, not all dogs can be trained on a flat collar or a martingale.
> 
> It is not _*"baloney"*_ to say that some dogs will not respond to a flat collar and that a prong is needed for certain dogs. Yes, believe it or not, some dogs will be unresponsive and uncontrolled with a martingale. This is a fact, not baloney and what happens in the real world. I use many different approaches to dog training and each is tailored to the individual dog. I also use many different tools, from a clicker and treats, to flat collars to toys and a prong collar and even an E collar. There is nothing inhumane, nothing that will harm a dog and the dogs and handlers I train are working in drive and the dog is eager to work and enjoying the training.
> 
> *I think it is time to stop condemning training techniques and tools that many use properly and have excellent results with*. I understand that it is not for you and you do not use them, that is fine. While you may have good results with your dogs, not everyone has the same dogs. We need to respect each others training style as long as it is fair and not abusive. Different goals, different jobs, different needs and dogs with different temperaments require different handling and training.
> 
> I hope we can put this debate to rest, people should be fair and consistent with their dogs. They should also use the tools that are appropriate for their training and their dog's temperament. People also need to use what ever tool or technique they choose properly. Funny, but these conversations always go to the choice of collar or method of correction. When in reality, more time should be spent on praise and reward than corrections. Few people ever talk about the praise and reward that they use or even understand how to use that powerful tool properly. It is the strongest tool we have when training dogs.


This is EXACTLY what I am complaining about that for some reason you just can get. 

People here are saying, "well sure there are dogs without the prongs, but they are dragging their owners down the street." -- paraphrased. You guys cannot have a conversation about your special collars without DISSING people who don't use them and their dogs. You get all in a hissy when we say anything about the use of the collars. But no one even notices when people are saying, things that are against those people who are not using the collars. Things like the dogs will not be reliable, they cannot be trained to the same level, it will take too long, and on.


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## Slamdunc

Selzer,
I haven't "dissed" anyone or have any trouble having a discussion on dog training. In fact, I like discussing dogs and dog training. I'm not sure who the "You guys" are that you keep referring too? I have clearly stated how I train and what tools, techniques and collars I use. I tailor it to the dog and handler. I don't see myself getting into a "hissy" when discussing the use of collars. I'm not really the type to get into a "hissy."  

I'm content to agree to disagree with you on this and let it go. I often read your posts and enjoy them, you provide very good insight and information. On this topic we disagree to an extent. I have my own experience working and training dogs. I will continue to do what works well for me and has proven effective. I'm not criticizing you or your training, I am somewhat surprised by your fervent posts on this topic.


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## thegooseman90

"You can train dogs to be rock solid without a prong." 

Not saying that it has to be a prong collar but how do you train a dog to do something because he HAS to rather than only when he wants to, without some kind of compulsion training? For instance with positive only what's to make the dog decide he doesn't want to work for a treat or a ball or whatever and just not follow thru with the command? And I mean this as a serious question, not trying to be argumentative or anything.


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## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> Head collars are dangerous, yes, what is the other type you find dangerous?
> 
> I've titled dogs at a year old in rally, some younger. Most Rally classes allow any collar (no flexi-leads), but in the ring you cannot use correction collars like prongs or e-collars, so why begin with them. Most of the people I work with, actually start with the prong, and then on the day they are going to trial they put the show lead on them. Sometimes the dogs get collar-smart and won't work in the wimpy collar because he has been conditioned to require a stronger correction.
> 
> Now, I am currently working with a 20 month old and a 7 month old in Rally. The 7 month old I am taking a break trying to get the car-sickness over with. The other dog hasn't been worked in a year and is now doing awesome. The other dogs in our class are with ordinary owners who have one dog, or one puppy they are working with, the older dogs are already done if they have an older dog. And they look good. The Rotty pup is 5 months old, his owner is into dressage with horses and agility with dogs, the Rotty is maybe the sharpest. The spaniel is a really, really nice dog. I don't know why the lady had a prong on her. I think it is a problem on the human end, maybe a health concern. She is 20 months old. I did not see a prong on her this week. The little corgi is also quite young, I think 7 months old, and she is very good -- definitely ready for the ring, very focused on the owner. I don't see a prong on that dog. The 18 month old shepherd is sporting a prong collar. She is barking at other dogs, and doing some lunging/barking. I like the dog, a pretty sable, long haired dog. And her obedience is actually good. Her focus is good.
> 
> I left Quinnie on a down-stay (not connected to anything) while I did the walk through. The other people walked-through with their dogs, and were walking right past my dog to get to their seats. This is a dog I haven't worked with for a year, and she won't be two until October. She had 4 puppy classes and 4 foundations 1 classes early last year. And then nothing. And I don't work on things between classes either, so they get an hour on saturday or thursday and that's it. Once or twice a year I will take them somewhere and be flabbergasted that they were so good. I think people try way too hard.
> 
> Slamdunc, forget the video. Someone took a video of Moofy the day I titled him. He was under 2. The video was of the girls working with him, awesome, because they were 8 or 9 and they had him walking and sitting and downing. They do not live with him. They don't own a dog, nor have they ever. So, it was really cool. But I could not share the darn thing. Ah well.
> 
> You can train dogs to be rock solid without a prong. You can train dogs that are a year or under in Rally -- all the dogs on Thursday would have qualified.
> 
> Go ahead and use your prong collars but stop the baloney about saying that they are needed, and without them, the dogs are unresponsive, or uncontrolled. It just is so untrue.


Selzer, my dog got his first rally title under a year. I don't think he had ever had a prong on him at that point. He titled without ever having taken a rally class. I wonder if I am beginning to see the issue. I've never used a prong teaching obedience like what we do at competition. I go to run thrus, trials, and all sorts of other places with my dog on a martingale and he is fine. He always has been.

If someone said to me I need to put a prong on him to train for rally I'd laugh. He is so biddable he practically teaches obedience to himself. Maybe that is where you are coming from with your dogs.

Then Selzer says "And I don't work on things between classes either, so they get an hour on saturday or thursday and that's it. Once or twice a year I will take them somewhere and be flabbergasted that they were so good. "

Do you walk your dogs daily? If so, where? On leash, off leash and what are the distractions? 

My dog walks offleash daily and we see wildlife often. You guys know the rest of that story. If I take him to town and walk on the sidewalk with people and dogs he is a delight on a martingale. If I am walking on my deserted dirt road and the labradoodle that lives down the hill happens by, he gets cranked. He played with that dog as a pup. it's one dog in the middle of nowhere. And passing that dog one time when he stood up on his hind legs and acted like a total idiot and him being 90 lbs of muscle, this is just not something I want to repeat. Brief use of prong and I have since passed that dog on the martingale and she was offleash and bounded up and play bowed to him and ran off and I still didn't lose control of him, with no prong, and I believe this was the third time we have ever bumped into them walking in his 2 year life so we have not had many opportunities to practice.

My dog is very different at "dog" events than he is in other environments. Classes, run thrus, trials, he is like yeah yeah, yawn. Sidewalks in town he expects to see people and dogs, more yawning. But there are those rare occasions where he is surprised by a dog where he does not expect a dog to be, or a whole herd of deer jump out in front of us on the trail, and suddenly he is not my mellow calm boy anymore. If all I ever did was take him to rally class and rally trial and besides that he was at home, I would never have put a prong or an e collar on him either and would likely think anyone was nuts who suggested it. 

I am starting to teach him different elements in tracking and we have been working in the community park. He was done with his track and playing with his toy that was his reward for the last article. He was attached to a 30 ft tracking line that I was not holding, he was about 10 feet away from me. Someone went by on the walking path with a sharpei on a flexi. Nasty dog, I know this dog and saw it coming. i left him where he was and moved in between him and the sharpei just in case. The dog lunged at him and snarled and barked like it always does. My dog didn't even acknowledge it. Off by my truck on a long line no one is holding.

That is not the result of any prong or e collar. He just knows dogs do dumb stuff and he is supposed to mind his own business and he is pretty into that toy he had.

Anyway. I am imagining myself with a pack of dogs like my boy, which sounds a lot like your dogs Selzer. If I had a bunch of dogs like him and we didn't go all the places we do all the time and do all the things we do I could imagine scoffing at anyone thinking you need a prong. And even in our situation, I am sure it could have been done without a prong but it worked well for us, got the job done fast, so why not. 

Because we are out walking, training in public, every day, we encounter all sorts of crazy stuff all the time. And in all those hundreds of hours we are out together, my dog is a delight 98% of the time. it is rare that he falls apart on me and requires more than a martingale. If I only took him out once per year I wouldn't have logged the hours to get to the more exciting stuff

Which brings me to the last thing I wanted to say. Awhile back Slamdunc was talking about hard, high drive dogs and the equipment and training they need. My dog is neither hard nor high drive. But the careful use of the prong nonetheless got us through a sticky spot in his adolescence where he had just realized how big and strong he was and all the exciting things the world has to offer. Just like the E Collar, I don't think the prong has to be the bigger stick on the badder dog. Sometimes it's just the right tool for the job.


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## selzer

See this is the thing. People think you are either putting a prong collar on the dog, or you are shoving cookies at them. When the fact is that people are putting prong collars on the dog AND shoving cookies at the dogs. There is a different way to train. And it works excellently. You train a dog with consistency, with respect to the animal in front of you, stability. You train the dog by developing a bond with the dog, where the dog trusts you, and you will trust the dog. You build the dog's confidence, and his trust in your leadership. The dog obeys you because you are the leader. Because the dog is trained, and because you are not expecting more than what the dog is capable of, and you know full well what the dog is capable of.

You don't need a prong for this. You start the day he comes home with you -- at whatever age he comes home. You are reliable and stable, consistent and reasonable,, and the dog accepts you as the human, the leader, and you learn to motivate the dog, not with treats, with praise, with your voice with your bond, with your body-language. 

It isn't hard, but it takes a little humility, and some time, and a lot of discpline. If you are trustworthy, and you are consistent, the dog will follow.


thegooseman90 said:


> "You can train dogs to be rock solid without a prong."
> 
> Not saying that it has to be a prong collar but how do you train a dog to do something because he HAS to rather than only when he wants to, without some kind of compulsion training? For instance with positive only what's to make the dog decide he doesn't want to work for a treat or a ball or whatever and just not follow thru with the command? And I mean this as a serious question, not trying to be argumentative or anything.


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## thegooseman90

Those all sound like good ideas in a vacuum but say you have a dog in drive, really amped up, and is in the middle of a bite. You order him out and he doesn't. At that point he's probably enjoying himself, it's a fun game and all. He doesn't want to stop. So how do you get him to respect you enough to do something he may not want to because he knows he has to? I can see something like that being especially important in LE dogs. But again I wanna say these are honest questions, not trying to disagree or anything


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## Hineni7

And tools for the job at hand is precisely the point I think everyone on both sides has basically agreed on.. From what I've read, the disagreements start at choosing a prong or Ecollar as an everyday for every situation for every dog.. From what Ive read, there really wasn't anyone that disputed the use of a prong or Ecollar for situations and training... Just the idea that the heavier equipment should be able to move off of as training abilities increase....excluding LE /MWD that are put in high high stress situations with public safety always a priority while the dog is doing high drive work... But again, the dog may have equipment on that doesn't have to be used or is used with light well trained hands.. 

I have personally always been one who wanted to use the least amount of force or equipment to get the job done. This means lots of training and proofing. However, tools are just that, tools. Used to help make the goal be accomplished. That means sometimes using equipment I may not use on a daily basis, but need to make a point. Used correctly, I should be able to reduce... 

Perfect example : I was on a search for an elderly altzehemier patient who had been walking in the woods with her pit bull, leash less. She had not returned in 24hrs,nor the dog. When I arrived I decided to put an Ecollar on my girl who is very dog neutral. Why? Because we may come across a loose pit bull guarding his frail owner, cold, wet, hungry, etc. I didn't need to have to worry about 2 dogs, one beep and my girl would be reminded of her duties and responsibilities should the pit bull charge.... Unfortunately, during the trailing, which my girl did very well, I had failed to fully think through placement of the remote and it got turned on under my chest harness and backpack straps.. It zapped and vibrated by my girl for quite some time before I realized what was happening.. I literally shut my dog down. She became glued to my side and I had to put her up for an hour (yes she recovered very well and trailed again that day as well as working in HR capacity with my further repercussions).. Poor baby 

So, used a tool for a given a reason, but it backfired accidentally.. Hard learning curve for me and my girl.. But it was a prophylactic for a possible scenario


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## Chip18

dogma13 said:


> Here's a good overview of many of the subtleties.
> K9Handler.com/E-Collar Basics - K9Handler.com/


Oh cool thanks. We have a new owner on deck with a Deaf Boxer, E-Collar was recommended .. OK it was me if she wanted to allow her dog to ever be off leash. 

Most likely she's using Vibration mode ... since I'm fairly sure quibble over Vibration mode vs a Working level stim, with a deaf dog is something only the truly pedantic care about??? But open desert ... at least 100 yards away was always pretty much standard with Struddell and she check at random intervals with me on her own. I have to get that right not a fan of losing a dog due to my negligence.


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## dogma13

Samson is trained to stop and look at me with one blow on a whistle,and three blows to recall.I'm wondering if you could do the same with a collar on vibrate?Maybe one second means stop and hold it for a count of several seconds to recall?I don't know!Just speculating


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## Chip18

dogma13 said:


> Samson is trained to stop and look at me with one blow on a whistle,and three blows to recall.I'm wondering if you could do the same with a collar on vibrate?Maybe one second means stop and hold it for a count of several seconds to recall?I don't know!Just speculating


LOL ... yes but I'm talking about possibly adopting a deaf dog ... I don't think a whistle is gonna work. 

Maybe deafness is not a GSD thing??? I've never heard of one ... no pun intended.


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## GypsyGhost

selzer said:


> See this is the thing. People think you are either putting a prong collar on the dog, or you are shoving cookies at them. When the fact is that people are putting prong collars on the dog AND shoving cookies at the dogs. There is a different way to train. And it works excellently. You train a dog with consistency, with respect to the animal in front of you, stability. You train the dog by developing a bond with the dog, where the dog trusts you, and you will trust the dog. You build the dog's confidence, and his trust in your leadership. The dog obeys you because you are the leader. Because the dog is trained, and because you are not expecting more than what the dog is capable of, and you know full well what the dog is capable of.
> 
> You don't need a prong for this. You start the day he comes home with you -- at whatever age he comes home. You are reliable and stable, consistent and reasonable,, and the dog accepts you as the human, the leader, and you learn to motivate the dog, not with treats, with praise, with your voice with your bond, with your body-language.
> 
> It isn't hard, but it takes a little humility, and some time, and a lot of discpline. If you are trustworthy, and you are consistent, the dog will follow.


Honest question... have you ever worked with a dog with a less than stellar temperament? One with high drive and no threshold coupled with reactivity and/or fear? I'm curious because I have a truly amazing bond with my boy who has all of those things, and there is no way I would bring him out in public without a correction collar of some sort. Would you just suggest a dog that needs some sort of correction collar due to a poor temperament be stuck at home or put down because they cannot be managed without a correction collar? I'm really curious about your thoughts on this kind of situation.


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## thegooseman90

Chip18 said:


> dogma13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Samson is trained to stop and look at me with one blow on a whistle,and three blows to recall.I'm wondering if you could do the same with a collar on vibrate?Maybe one second means stop and hold it for a count of several seconds to recall?I don't know!Just speculating
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL ... yes but I'm talking about possibly adopting a deaf dog ... I don't think a whistle is gonna work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe deafness is not a GSD thing??? I've never heard of one ... no pun intended.
Click to expand...

 not to jump in but I think he was suggesting you train a recall with your dead dogs using the vibrate function of your e collar similar to how he uses his whistle


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## thegooseman90

Oops meant deaf dog - lol I don't think there's much you could do to recall a dead dog


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## dogma13

thegooseman90 said:


> Oops meant deaf dog - lol I don't think there's much you could do to recall a dead dog


Maybe a seance?:wink2:


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## Chip18

thegooseman90 said:


> not to jump in but I think he was suggesting you train a recall with your dead dogs using the vibrate function of your e collar similar to how he uses his whistle


Oh ... thanks for jumping in! Lack of imagination on part! Similar to a whistle ... a signal pattern for recall ... but not a whistle. Aww, well that's why I asked. :blush:

So maybe one tap for look at me and then two taps for recall ... does that make sense???


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## dogma13

Chip18 said:


> Oh ... thanks for jumping in! Lack of imagination on part! Similar to a whistle ... a signal pattern for recall ... but not a whistle. Aww, well that's why I asked. :blush:
> 
> So maybe one tap for look at me and then two taps for recall ... does that make sense???


Lol Chip!I don't think there's enough difference between one tap and two taps to clarify what you are asking of the dog.One tap for Look at Me and several taps or several seconds of continual vibe for recall.The dog learns how to turn off the vibe/stim(low level!!) by returning to you pronto.
All trained on a long line carefully and humanely so the dog understands.It's teach and reward.
Again I have no experience with deaf dogs!Take my thoughts with a grain of salt and research the heck out of it!


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## Kyrielle

selzer said:


> See this is the thing. People think you are either putting a prong collar on the dog, or you are shoving cookies at them. When the fact is that people are putting prong collars on the dog AND shoving cookies at the dogs. There is a different way to train. And it works excellently. You train a dog with consistency, with respect to the animal in front of you, stability. You train the dog by developing a bond with the dog, where the dog trusts you, and you will trust the dog. You build the dog's confidence, and his trust in your leadership. The dog obeys you because you are the leader. Because the dog is trained, and because you are not expecting more than what the dog is capable of, and you know full well what the dog is capable of.
> 
> You don't need a prong for this. You start the day he comes home with you -- at whatever age he comes home. You are reliable and stable, consistent and reasonable,, and the dog accepts you as the human, the leader, and you learn to motivate the dog, not with treats, with praise, with your voice with your bond, with your body-language.
> 
> It isn't hard, but it takes a little humility, and some time, and a lot of discpline. If you are trustworthy, and you are consistent, the dog will follow.


I have a serious question for you, Selzer. Do your dogs ever go off leash in the wilderness (I can't remember if you've ever mentioned such before)? What do they do when they see a deer/critter? Is their recall solid with your training methods? Have you ever had a dog that wasn't as biddable as most of yours are now? How did they do in the above situation then?

I'm just curious.


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## Chip18

dogma13 said:


> Lol Chip!I don't think there's enough difference between one tap and two taps to clarify what you are asking of the dog.One tap for Look at Me and several taps or several seconds of continual vibe for recall.The dog learns how to turn off the vibe/stim(low level!!) by returning to you pronto.
> All trained on a long line carefully and humanely so the dog understands.It's teach and reward.
> Again I have no experience with deaf dogs!Take my thoughts with a grain of salt and research the heck out of it!


Aww Ok thanks for explaining. I do recall reading that ... now. I do have Larry Khrons, E-Book on E-Collar Training ... I guess I have to read more than 11% of it. 

I guess I have a tendency to reinvent the wheel as it were ... fortunately, I don't have an E-Collar or a Deaf Dog yet. Sigh ... I gotta learn new stuff.


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## Steve Strom

GypsyGhost said:


> Honest question... have you ever worked with a dog with a less than stellar temperament? One with high drive and no threshold coupled with reactivity and/or fear? I'm curious because I have a truly amazing bond with my boy who has all of those things, and there is no way I would bring him out in public without a correction collar of some sort. Would you just suggest a dog that needs some sort of correction collar due to a poor temperament be stuck at home or put down because they cannot be managed without a correction collar? I'm really curious about your thoughts on this kind of situation.


I'm not trying to answer your question, but this points out the crux of the whole argument. Its not as much about the collars and who's doing the training. We're talking about 2 completely different types of dogs. The dog that's good in a smaller, more restrictive venue like rally or cd's is a different dog then the one who maintains that high level of drive your looking for in something like IPO where they work in an opened up, free'er type routine for 15min or so, and has 3 different phases. One of them can do both, one of them can't. That's what causes the tension in this conversation. Trying to draw an equivalency that's not there.

The dogs are what they are. The proof is in what they do, or don't. Live with it.


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## GypsyGhost

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not trying to answer your question, but this points out the crux of the whole argument. Its not as much about the collars and who's doing the training. We're talking about 2 completely different types of dogs. The dog that's good in a smaller, more restrictive venue like rally or cd's is a different dog then the one who maintains that high level of drive your looking for in something like IPO where they work in an opened up, free'er type routine for 15min or so, and has 3 different phases. One of them can do both, one of them can't. That's what causes the tension in this conversation. Trying to draw an equivalency that's not there.
> 
> The dogs are what they are. The proof is in what they do, or don't. Live with it.


I totally agree with you. It's unfair, in my opinion, to assume that just because you can train your particular dogs without the use of certain collars for one venue, that ALL dogs can be trained in ALL venues without them. I have two WL dogs from different lines that do the same training and require a different level of correction for the same work. I cannot imagine thinking I could get away with handling my male with the lighter corrections my bitch needs, or using the more harsh ones my male needs on my bitch. And I also cannot imagine my bitch requiring anything more than verbal corrections for rally, if we were to compete in that venue, because she would not be in the same state of super high drive she is in while doing IPO. Different dogs, different situations, require different tools. Every dog is different, and just because you use a correction collar on one doesn't diminish the bond you have with that dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Well I partly brought up the rally venue because my softer, lower drive dog and I still have benefited from prong and e collar. I don't think it is true that you O8nly ever need or have justification to use those tools on a working line dog in a high arousal situation. although looking back on it I used the tools on my young dog to proof his response when what he wanted was more rewarding than what I had and he was fired p to get it...that goes for deer, chipmunks, the ladradoodle. They aren't stupid. He knows if he ignores the doodle he will get a cookie. Bad trade. he is not even very into food

Selzer has said she has recalled a dog off a deer. I am curious how many times she has had to so that because for me it was a numbers game. For months we didn't see any deer. Then boom they were everywhere, probably something bloomed or the apples were ripe. We started seeing them all the time. My dog called off deer atimes successfully and I though yay! he is the first one I don't have to do on the e collar. I don't know how long for sure or exactly how many deer but at some point, he chased. He ignored me calling him back and had his run, and then he knew. 

My only regret honestly is that I didn't start him on e collar pre emptively so he never got that one chase

bottom line, I don't think anybody needs an excuse or permission to use the right tool for the job


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## Thecowboysgirl

I also worked hard to learn better technique in giving rewards so I could give my dog a better reward. He loved his ball on a rope and I have built that up and still occasionally carry it in the woods so sometimes when he calls off game he gets that which although not a fair trade is a heck of a lot better than a cookie.

Making compliance more rewarding means I may have to correct less

When I call him he comes like he was shot from a rocket and that is because of the motivational piece of training.


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## GypsyGhost

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well I partly brought up the rally venue because my softer, lower drive dog and I still have benefited from prong and e collar. I don't think it is true that you O8nly ever need or have justification to use those tools on a working line dog in a high arousal situation. although looking back on it I used the tools on my young dog to proof his response when what he wanted was more rewarding than what I had and he was fired p to get it...that goes for deer, chipmunks, the ladradoodle. They aren't stupid. He knows if he ignores the doodle he will get a cookie. Bad trade. he is not even very into food
> 
> Selzer has said she has recalled a dog off a deer. I am curious how many times she has had to so that because for me it was a numbers game. For months we didn't see any deer. Then boom they were everywhere, probably something bloomed or the apples were ripe. We started seeing them all the time. My dog called off deer atimes successfully and I though yay! he is the first one I don't have to do on the e collar. I don't know how long for sure or exactly how many deer but at some point, he chased. He ignored me calling him back and had his run, and then he knew.
> 
> My only regret honestly is that I didn't start him on e collar pre emptively so he never got that one chase
> 
> bottom line, I don't think anybody needs an excuse or permission to use the right tool for the job


I didn't mean to imply that an ecollar or prong couldn't be useful for rally, or even for a soft dog. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I personally think they have infinite uses and can be applied to numerous situations and numerous dogs, and are great for proofing. I was more saying, I guess, that it may seem like they are not needed if you had never had a problem dog, or tried training a dog in drive. 

And I agree with you. Use the tools that work for you and the dog in front of you. Use them correctly and responsibly. It's a shame that there is judgement in regards to which tools you choose. And it's a shame using those tools means you don't have a great bond with your dog in the eyes of some people.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Gypsy ghost what I said was really as an add on to Steve Strom & Slamdunc talking about higher drive dogs working in drive.

I think I could make an argument that calling off a herd of deer literally running through me and my dogs is a pretty charged up and distracted recall...and there is really nothing soft or biddable about my dog under those circumstances.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Also for the record...I don't think I have ever corrected my dog in any meaningful way when teaching rally. We train for that 98% offleash anyway.

So I was trying to say...my soft biddable rally dog gets charged up in OTHER circumstances when he can use a little correction

Though if someone has a strong dog and needs a prong to get to rally class I would still say good job for getting there...MOST pet dogs are so under utilized, and if that's what it takes to get someone out learning a fun sport then I say great.


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## selzer

GypsyGhost said:


> Honest question... have you ever worked with a dog with a less than stellar temperament? One with high drive and no threshold coupled with reactivity and/or fear? I'm curious because I have a truly amazing bond with my boy who has all of those things, and there is no way I would bring him out in public without a correction collar of some sort. Would you just suggest a dog that needs some sort of correction collar due to a poor temperament be stuck at home or put down because they cannot be managed without a correction collar? I'm really curious about your thoughts on this kind of situation.


Yes. Well, not the no threshold part. But the others. Personally, I think if you cannot manage a dog without a prong collar, then you should not own the dog. Just because you managed to live for a number of months or years with such a dog without a serious incident is more of an accident. I am not saying you shouldn't use such a collar, but one HAS to be able to control a dog collar or no collar, or someone, eventually, is likely to be hurt bad. 



Kyrielle said:


> I have a serious question for you, Selzer. Do your dogs ever go off leash in the wilderness (I can't remember if you've ever mentioned such before)? What do they do when they see a deer/critter? Is their recall solid with your training methods? Have you ever had a dog that wasn't as biddable as most of yours are now? How did they do in the above situation then?
> 
> I'm just curious.


Well, I live in the sticks, and my dogs are off lead in my yard, where it is not fenced all the time. They do not have collars on or anything. And, yes, I have called them off deer, and squirrels and rabbits -- but most, perhaps all of those were when I was not at home. Different dogs. My sister lives where the deer own the neighborhood, and I have called my dogs off of deer without an issue. The suicidal squirrel was in town, and coming toward us. Babs was preceeding us to a park, and finally she went toward the squirrel and I called her to heel, and she came right to my heel. Not an issue. The rabbit was Arwen, she kicked it up, I called her to heel, and she came right to me. The deer were Hepsi and Dolly and Babsy and probably some others, whoever I took to my sister's for the day with the kids. 

I drop things. I drop leashes. My dogs have to come back to me. GSDs make great service dogs. Because they can be trained to be managed by people with disabilities. If people are producing dogs that cannot do what mine can, because I am really no great trainer, then they should look to their breeding program, because it states it right in the standard that these dogs should be capable of being companion animals, and leader dogs for the blind (service dogs), etc, etc.


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## Sunsilver

Personally, I think if you cannot manage a dog without a prong collar, then you should not own the dog.

Selzer, statements like that upset me. 

Back in 2005, I rescued a 3 year old male GSD that had spent most of his life tied to his doghouse by an 8 foot chain. He'd never been walked on a leash, and weighed 84 lbs. His owner said he was going to shoot him if no one adopted him.

I was told by several people I'd never be able to control him. I'd had 2 GSDs previous to this, and had always used a flat collar. It was recommended to me that I buy a prong for this dog, so I did.

He learned very quickly how to walk nicely on a leash, and pretty soon I was able to graduate him to a flat collar. I doubt very much I would have been able to handle a dog this big using just a flat collar.

The anti-prong people are trying to say just what you said above - if you can't handle the dog without a prong or a choke chain, you shouldn't own it. That means there are an awful lot of good dogs out there who have learned to pull on a flat collar, and have been surrendered because their owners couldn't control them, that are not going to be able to find homes if this becomes law. Many of them will be condemned to euthanasia. 

Of course, if I had gotten this dog as a pup, I am a skilled enough dog trainer that I likely could have trained him using a flat collar. But to pretend that everyone out there is physically able to control a large adult dog with just a collar or a no-pull harness is being totally unrealistic. I don't care HOW good a trainer you are! 

I do schutzhund with a 55 lb. working line dog, and when she charges forward against her harness, I have difficulty holding her, and I'm a tall woman, with pretty good muscles. If she hadn't been trained as a pup to walk on a loose leash and ignore other dogs, she could easily pull hard enough to go nose-to-nose with a dog walking past, and possibly start a fight. (No, she's not dog aggressive, but other dogs might be.)


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## Jenny720

Our wgsl female Luna who is 10 months old would make a person who never owned a dog in their life look like an experienced dog person- much like all the dogs I ever owned. Can't stress how easy a dog she is. My 14 year old daughter does much work with her. As bringing into another gsd into our family she is exactly what we were looking for. I can easily call her off a deer as we have plenty here at the beach and park- using no ecollar. Max our asl has a higher prey drive he is the one dog that taught me the most.Max helped me go outside the box. He craves to learn and is why I spent so much time teaching him so many different things. He soaks it up like a sponge I had to learn different things to teach him. I use the ecollar as when he is off leash as he would chase a deer or cat. Before I used the ecollar he chased a deer the only thing that would come back if he sensed I was in true duress. I have to say I have never been so bonded to an animal in my life. If I'm upset he will come running to check on me where ever he is. I don't think I will ever have a bond like I do with Max with any other dog. Max and Luna require different level of corrections off leash. The e collar helps communicate any corrections if needed to Max when off leash. So what. I acknowledge that and able to enjoy both of them because of that.


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## Jenny720

I love prong collars.


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> Yes. Well, not the no threshold part. But the others. Personally, I think if you cannot manage a dog without a prong collar, then you should not own the dog. Just because you managed to live for a number of months or years with such a dog without a serious incident is more of an accident. I am not saying you shouldn't use such a collar, but one HAS to be able to control a dog collar or no collar, or someone, eventually, is likely to be hurt bad.


That seems quite harsh and likely to exclude a lot of otherwise good dogs from good owners and otherwise good owners from good dogs. If the dog is otherwise happy and healthy and well managed, I don't think it's this giant strike if someone uses a prong or ecollar. If that's what it takes to keep a dog safe, great. We should be celebrating that instead of judging people as unfit owners, which is what you are doing here. But we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Selzer said: "Personally, I think if you cannot manage a dog without a prong collar, then you should not own the dog. Just because you managed to live for a number of months or years with such a dog without a serious incident is more of an accident. I am not saying you shouldn't use such a collar, but one HAS to be able to control a dog collar or no collar, or someone, eventually, is likely to be hurt bad." 

By this logic Slamdunc shouldn't have his patrol dogs, one of whom might save me from a very bad dude one day...and have already probably saved other people from said bad dudes. And he is a very skilled dog handler and trainer. 

Also Selzer...you state that just because you have gotten by for however long, someday you will have to control the dog without the prong. To me that is the entire point of using a prong. SO that the dog can be easily controlled without one. It is a training tool to bridge exactly what you said. Exactly so that someday someone does NOT get hurt bad. 

There was a time when I would have agreed with the statement Selzer made above. Because I got into dogs with the pure positive crowd and wholeheartedly believed that prongs, e collars, ect were cruel and there was no place for them whatsoever. The longer I am involved with dogs, the less I stick to hard and fast rules like that, or black and white thinking like that.

Among many other things, my super sensitive boy responds better to a light pressure on a prong than me raising my voice or me popping him in any way on a flat collar. So of all the things at my disposal, he is the most comfortable and confident with some light prong pressure. So that is what I use in situations where it is needed.

Here is a question for Selzer, too...for all those dogs who should not be owned by people needing prongs, where would you have them go (the dogs?) 

I know several pure positive trainers who will recommend euthanasia before they would suggest training with an e collar. I don't agree with that stance, and I don't agree at all with the assertion that people who use prongs shouldn't own those dogs.


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## Hineni7

Wow Selzer... That is quite the statment... I have traied horses for over 20yrs and heard probably all the cliche's "All arabs are nerve bags," "All quarter horses are calm and cowy," "Thoroughbreds can all race but not do reining, gaming, dressage,...etc" etc etc... All these and more, statements and assumptions came from people having been exposed to (usually) only one breed of horse - and very few to more than a few horses overall. I have trained well over a thousand horses (yes, thousand) of the years and given way more lessons than I can count. Interestingly enough, none of the myths rang true.

You breed for a softer type GSD (not saying lesser, just less intensity and drive) and that is what you are exposed to. You have handled 30 or so of that tempered dog very well. But that is like my students saying that all horses should be handled in a nylon halter because their horses can. But, if they worked with a mustang off the range, a thoroughbred off the track, a punk of a quarter horse that has dominated his owners for years, or just a 'spooky' mutt of a horse, they would quickly see why other tools like a rope halter are so useful. They keep the 1,000lb animal with over the top quick reflexes from using their weight and stregth against you. When being worn as a halter, it is inactive, when the horse leans on the halter it is uncomfortable, thus less muscle on our end is needed. It is a tool. 

While I am not one to subscribe to a dog wearing a prong collar as their everyday for everythig collar, nor am I in the place to judge why the prong is on their dog. You say you have difficulty holding onto things due to your hands being damaged, some might say, "why own a working dog if you don't do 'work' with it?" What you consider work and what others might consider work are different. Does that mean you should not own a high drive breed like a GSD? No. Yet,, your comment makes it seem anyone who has a higher level drive dog, or perhaps, a heavier disability than you, should not own the GSD.. You are in error.


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## Steve Strom

I just re-read the original post. Interesting parallels and still on topic a year later. Just a little different cast of characters.


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## dogma13

Selzer from the way you've always described your dogs it sounds like they are bred to your personal standard.Healthy,mild mannered,biddable pets.
What if you could spend a few days interning at a working dog facility?Experience training dogs with a different temperament than you are accustomed to.If someone from that facility would switch places with you there's an idea for a new show on Animal Planet
Joking aside,some excellent examples of completely different temperaments of two dogs owned by cowboys girl,Jenny720,etc. that require completely different approaches.If they hadn't been flexible and tried something new it could only end in frustrated owners and dogs.
Your dogs and the way you train them sound like exactly what many pet owners would love for themselves and their families.The fact remains that there are other dogs out there that require different approaches to live long happy lives with their families.
Wanna know my current training dilemma?How to keep them at a respectful distance from skunks and porcupines.For now I'm taking the most practical route and staying out of the woods.


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## Slamdunc

Steve Strom said:


> I just re-read the original post. Interesting parallels and still on topic a year later. Just a little different cast of characters.


I didn't realize this thread was almost a year old. Nothing has changed since then, I suppose.


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## dogma13

Slamdunc said:


> I didn't realize this thread was almost a year old. Nothing has changed since then, I suppose.


Sadly poor Ronin ended up being pts.A situation that had nothing to do with choice of neckwear.


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## Jenny720

dogma13 said:


> Slamdunc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't realize this thread was almost a year old. Nothing has changed since then, I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly poor Ronin ended up being pts.A situation that had nothing to do with choice of neckwear.
Click to expand...

I did not realize this was a year old either. Oh no she loved that dog, so sad to hear this. So sad.


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## Chip18

Jenny720 said:


> I did not realize this was a year old either. Oh no she loved that dog, so sad to hear this. So sad.


Aww, I did not know either ... that sucks.


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## Thecowboysgirl

dogma13 said:


> Sadly poor Ronin ended up being pts.A situation that had nothing to do with choice of neckwear.


OMG Really? What happened!?


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## dogma13

Thecowboysgirl said:


> OMG Really? What happened!?


She said he was diagnosed with a brain tumor


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## Thecowboysgirl

Oh that's terrible...


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## selzer

dogma13 said:


> Selzer from the way you've always described your dogs it sounds like they are bred to your personal standard.Healthy,mild mannered,biddable pets.
> What if you could spend a few days interning at a working dog facility?Experience training dogs with a different temperament than you are accustomed to.If someone from that facility would switch places with you there's an idea for a new show on Animal Planet
> Joking aside,some excellent examples of completely different temperaments of two dogs owned by cowboys girl,Jenny720,etc. that require completely different approaches.If they hadn't been flexible and tried something new it could only end in frustrated owners and dogs.
> Your dogs and the way you train them sound like exactly what many pet owners would love for themselves and their families.The fact remains that there are other dogs out there that require different approaches to live long happy lives with their families.
> Wanna know my current training dilemma?How to keep them at a respectful distance from skunks and porcupines.For now I'm taking the most practical route and staying out of the woods.


Maybe. 

Maybe I just have weenie-dogs that like to please me and are easy to manage. Yesterday my 10 year old niece went out and gave the second feeding of the day to my dogs on her own. All 15 of them. Today, both 10 year olds did it together. I stayed inside watching out the window. Not because I am lazy. Because it gave the girls a great confidence boost to do the job themselves. These are girls who do work with horses. The younger one, the one that did it all herself yesterday, was grooming a Percheron the last time I picked them up from the horse barn. 

But my puppies go a lot of places. One has been used to track and engage with escaped convicts. Another has his schutzhund trainer very impressed with his bite and willingness to work. These two owners use the tools above. A week ago or so, I was hugging one of them. I would not use a prong on that boy, or an e-collar. I wouldn't need it. I know this. 

I got another dog back from a retired police officer, due to health problems (the police officer's). The dog was very large (neutered early) and 18 months old, and he was sporting a prong collar. I took it off of him and never put it back on him. I don't need it. A police officer thought it was needed, and perhaps it was needed. I have heard from a mutual friend that the dog pulled him down, causing him to fall. Prong and all. Whatever. I don't have that problem with him. 

My dogs have the weight and the strength to drag me down the street. They do not. I really do not believe we have been given brains so we can use our brawn to over-power animals to make them mind us. They are dogs. They are actually simple creatures with pretty raw emotions, insticts, drives, and intellect. Surely we can do better than throw a pinch collar on a dog or zap them with an e-collar. With a dog that is going to go up the leash at a handler, we shouldn't use them, so why can we not not use them with other dogs? 

The thing is, we could manage these dogs without prongs and e-collars. We can. But some of us believe it isn't possible with our dogs. And this site feeds that belief because it makes people feel better about how they are training their dogs. I can prove it, really. The collars are training collars. So we don't leave them on 24/7. But we can put them on the dog. We can manage these dogs without the collars within our homes. But they are used to go out where the drive may be higher, and the pulling might become dangerous. 

I think that if a dog is unmanageable without a collar, then he should not be kept by someone who cannot manage him. Else they would have to leave that collar on the dog, 24/7. And that dog, if he sees the meter reader outside the living room window, might go through the window to get to him. Might slip out the door when you are signing for a package. Then your dog is outside, unconnected, and what the heck are you going to do? Someone is likely to get hurt. Our breed doesn't deserve that crap.

A LOT of the folks who have my dogs use e-collars or prong collars on them. Some are younger and stronger than I am. But they have been taught that they need these collars. 

The boy with the prong collar on him when I got him back. He has a dislike for horses, and I live in Amish country. Lovely. But I still let him off-lead to get to my car and go somewhere. I believe that I could call him off a horse even. The dog is four and a half years old. I have had him for the last 3 years without an incident. If I couldn't manage him off-lead, I would simply keep him leashed until I felt I could. That would be managing him. I do not really have a problem with people using the collars for training. I've even suggested them to some people in some instances. But the object is to train the dog so that the collar is unnecessary.

Too many people feel they cannot manage the dog without the collar. They have put it on to train the dog to walk, but never graduate. In fact, they see it as a magic wand that makes a walk bearable to the human. Yay. That was all we needed. Done. Now the dog is perfect. But what happens when the prong comes apart? It does happen. Then what do you do when you have your dog out and about where he is not manageable without a prong? 

A man out my way thought he could manage a bear, and other critters. In Ohio, a few years ago, a Kennel license would cost you $50. But an permit/license to keep exotic animals would cost you only $40. So this dude had a bear and lions and such. The bear was not manageable, but I am sure he had a method for cleaning out his area, and feeding and watering him. The bear got out and savaged the lady next door. Her daughter, a kid had to lure the bear away with lunch meat. Should the man have owned a bear that he couldn't manage? 

I don't think private citizens should own wild animals. And I don't think people who cannot handle a dog with the capability of savaging someone, without some correction collar, should own such a dog. I am not saying people shouldn't use them. But if they cannot do without them, then they shouldn't own the critter.

And I think that if we do not immediately go for the big guns, sometimes we never need the big guns. We improve our technique and have a better handle on the dog, and a better bond with him. Instead, people just listen to what people say and jump into the prong, it works like a miracle, and they never learn a darn thing.


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## dogma13

And I think that if we do not immediately go for the big guns, sometimes we never need the big guns. We improve our technique and have a better handle on the dog, and a better bond with him. Instead, people just listen to what people say and jump into the prong, it works like a miracle, and they never learn a darn thing

Absolutely!


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## MineAreWorkingline

The way I understand it was the dog was being beaten down with obedience and given no exercise, multiple trainers advised for the owner to lighten up, the dog was becoming rebellious, and though despite having offers from capable hands to take the dog, the owner refused and chose euthanasia.


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## Chip18

Well I'll still go with my tool of choice (SLL) in my chosen venue. And whether I come across Casper Milk Toast or Cujo ... I'm good. But Porcupine ... Skunks and ... Woods??? Hmm ... guess I'm a line of sight, Desert Dogs kinda guy ... who knew???


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## Jenny720

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The way I understand it was the dog was being beaten down with obedience and given no exercise, multiple trainers advised for the owner to lighten up, the dog was becoming rebellious, and though despite having offers from capable hands to take the dog, the owner refused and chose euthanasia.


I thought dogma said it was a brain tumor. They put the dog down because of behavior issues?

Rest in peace Ronin.


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## Whiteshepherds

I think it would surprise some people to know that guide dogs are often trained with head collars, prongs etc., and some continue to wear that equipment long after they're trained and out working. They're used for training because they work. (perhaps they get faster results...I don't know...) They're used after because when needed the dogs respond to them, it's what they're use to. Dogs don't have to be aggressive to benefit from these tools nor are they always unmanageable when at home and the collars come off. In the wrong hands a prong, choke, halti etc. can hurt a dog but let's be honest, an idiot with a dog on a flat collar can do just as much damage to a dog...it's not the equipment that's bad, it's the person operating it that makes a difference. Anyway.....

Guide Dogs For The Blind Inc. has this to say about head collars: (in part) Head collars are used for gentle control of a puppy or dog, and should be looked upon as just another ‘tool’ available to raisers. Imagine leading a horse by a collar around its neck; the horse would simply drag you where it wanted you to go! By having control of the horses’ head, you control its body. The same thing applies for dogs. *All Guide Dogs (they're speaking about the guide dogs affliated with them) are introduced and worked in a head collar at some point prior to being placed as a working guide. Depending on the needs of the individual dog or handler, it may be the best equipment for a working guide to use.* It is beneficial, but not a necessity, for puppies to be accustomed to the head collar before they return for formal training.

The dog in this video is from Southeastern Guide Dogs, her owner is visually impaired. The dog is wearing a prong. The idea that this person shouldn't own a dog because it's on a prong is pretty ridiculous don't you think? Do you think this handler is lazy or that the dog can't be managed without a collar when at home?


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## Thecowboysgirl

Wait, so now prong collars are preventing dogs from "savaging" people? I am also unclear as to what bears escaping and mauling people has to do with prong collars.

?????

The only working guide dog I have known personally wore a choke chain well into its career and got a sharp correction for ever slipping up on manners or duties. I was friends with the trainer who cared for it when the owner was hospitalized.

As for going for the "big" guns...I contend that they aren't necessarily bigger. Especially the e collar. I don't use an e collar because it is more powerful or more painful than myself...or whatever correction I can personally give a dog. I use an e collar because it allows me to give physical communication from a distance that would be impossible otherwise. I don't say to myself, this dog is tough, time to bring our the bigger stick. I say to myself, this situation requires physical communization at a distance past what my arms or leash can do. 

A prong collar is less comfortable for a dog to wear. but again, I have watched dozens of dogs leaning into a flat collar hard enough to gag...and they appeared content to continue to do so, these dogs will stop that behavior much faster on a prong and it is in their best interest of stop doing that since t it's harmful to them. My takeaway is again, that for some reason dogs are not bothered by gagging themselves on a flat collar but they will avoid pressure on the prong which is superficial and does not really hurt them.

I say it does not hurt them because I have never seen a dog get broken skin by a prong and my personal evidence for the less pressure on the trachea is that they gag on a flat collar and they do not gag on a prong. They may whine in discomfort at first. But that is from the skin pinch/poke. This is a case where I don't think the dog's preference ought to be heeded if that makes sense. Maybe they don't mind gagging, but i do.

@Selzer, do you walk all of your dogs daily? I am guessing not due to numbers. Do you walk any of your dogs daily? in what kind of environment?

I get the sense that you don't walk all of your dogs or hike with your dogs regularly.

You often mention going from the house to the car...i've never needed or used a prong, e collar or leash for that matter to get from house to car


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## Chip18

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think it would surprise some people to know that guide dogs are often trained with head collars, prongs etc., and some continue to wear that equipment long after they're trained and out working. They're used for training because they work. (perhaps they get faster results...I don't know...) They're used after because when needed the dogs respond to them, it's what they're use to. Dogs don't have to be aggressive to benefit from these tools nor are they always unmanageable when at home and the collars come off. In the wrong hands a prong, choke, halti etc. can hurt a dog but let's be honest, an idiot with a dog on a flat collar can do just as much damage to a dog...it's not the equipment that's bad, it's the person operating it that makes a difference. Anyway.....
> 
> Guide Dogs For The Blind Inc. has this to say about head collars: (in part) Head collars are used for gentle control of a puppy or dog, and should be looked upon as just another ‘tool’ available to raisers. Imagine leading a horse by a collar around its neck; the horse would simply drag you where it wanted you to go! By having control of the horses’ head, you control its body. The same thing applies for dogs. *All Guide Dogs (they're speaking about the guide dogs affliated with them) are introduced and worked in a head collar at some point prior to being placed as a working guide. Depending on the needs of the individual dog or handler, it may be the best equipment for a working guide to use.* It is beneficial, but not a necessity, for puppies to be accustomed to the head collar before they return for formal training.
> 
> The dog in this video is from Southeastern Guide Dogs, her owner is visually impaired. The dog is wearing a prong. The idea that this person shouldn't own a dog because it's on a prong is pretty ridiculous don't you think? Do you think this handler is lazy or that the dog can't be managed without a collar when at home? https://youtu.be/xzaTxnwSbQI


Hmm ... well thanks for the link. As I am want to say ... "there is always that guy or girl." 

Sooo ... much to my surprise and horror ... My Bonker Guy, is also a big proponent of Head Halters on Dogs??? I was stunned but as they say ... the only thing three dog trainers will agree on is that one of them is wrong. 

That said ... technically ... I agree ... as I did say *"any tool improperly used can be abused." *So yeah ....


Still ... Guide Dogs for the Blind ... those dogs and puppies are "special" so here is that (that does not explain Gary Wilkes avocation of Head Halters with family pets so ...yeah. But in the real ... on one of the rare occasions when Rocky and I came accords a another GSD, that was not in the back of a Subaru or Pick Up going somewhere. It was interesting ... we did have a short conversion with a streets worth of distance between us and our dogs. Maybe that's a High Desert Working Dogs/Sled Dog kinda thing ... cause most little dog owners ... don't observe it, moving on.

So we stop and talk I ask if his GSD Tan and Blk is a puppy??? As he was so much smaller than my OS guy?? And he explains no he's three years old! I was surprised. But that's not my point both our dogs were behaved and Rocky was slightly behind while we stopped and spoke and his dog was standing slightly in front of him calmly is a Head Halter.

And while both our dogs were calm and well behaved, the contrast between them was startlingly??? Rocky stood relaxed next to me with his head held high. The Head Halter dog ... he hung his head low and never looked up??? That particular dog struck me as looking as embarrassed to be seen in public with that thing on his face as I felt for him. We said a few other things and parted ways, the guys dog walked well on leash and that was all he cared about ... what I saw in our dogs demeanor .. he either did not notice or does not care?? 

And I have seen other breeds with Head Halties and they don't seem to mind but that particular GSD, gave me the impression he did??? As for me ... I rather run butt naked through Black Berry, Bushes than use one of those things on one of my dogs. So not exactly a well reasoned argument against Halters I'll grant. And for the record ... Black Berry brushes are hard to find out here ... they hang out by trees and water.


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## newlie

I will say one thing from my own experience. While it is true that some people have more affinity and are more gifted in this area than others, everybody starts somewhere, nobody is born as a dog trainer. Along the way, people make mistakes and learn and gain experience and maybe some of the tools they use along the way won't be necessary at another time or with another dog. I don't think it is fair to say that people who can't control their dog without a prong should not have the dog at all. For one thing, where will all these extra dogs go when thousands are dying every day for lack of space? Is it really better for them to die than to wear a prong? I also don't think it is fair to say that the relationship is flawed if a dog needs a prong. I love Newlie dearly and he loves me. But he is a big, strong boy who is capable of dragging a grown man behind him without the prong and I have to use it if I am going to be able to take him places. I remember right after I first got him, I took him wearing a harness to a little class at Feeders Supply. They told us "No harnesses" so the next week, I took him wearing a flat collar to class. He took off as we were crossing the parking lot and darn near pulled me and him both in front of a car. No, I am not going to get killed or have him get killed because some people feel a prong is wrong, I am just not that self-sacrificing, lol.


It is also an error to think any owner using a prong has not tried to work with their dog. You think Newlie hasn't been to classes? You think we have never been to trainers? You think I don't work with him? If so, you are wrong. I am sure the fault is all mine, but somehow when he is are outside his yard and gets excited, things he knows don't always apply. I will say he is better, I can actually take him in to the waiting room at the vet's office instead of waiting outside. But his reactivity to some dogs is another reason I can't see ever trusting him off-leash or without a prong. And if that makes me a bad person or a bad dog owner, so be it.


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## selzer

I would suggest a prong before a head collar. 

Dogs are predators, not flight animals. Though some will flee, and for them a martingale is probably the best tool. When you want to walk a horse, you use a halter, when you want to drive or ride the animal you use a bit and a bridle. How come do we not use bits with dogs? Because dogs and horses are not the same critter. 

True a 15 to 18 hundred pound animal could drag you along by a collar around its neck. Where on the neck. Their neck is pretty long, and you could probably put a prong up high on the neck and get some control, or it would just scare the horse and create serious problems. Hard to say. Instead, when you want control on a horse you use a a chain on your lead rope; when riding or driving, you use a smaller bit, and there are correction bits, bits that tighten down differently than a simple snaffle, bits with a shank that will give you more control, because of the torque and the way it tightens down. Then there is the mule bit, that looks jagged, pointy, evil thing, that 4H shows ban, kind of like AKC shows ban the prong and e-collars and head collars.

Horses and dogs are similar in that they both kind of like to work with humans. They are trained to take commands from humans, and they seem to be happy to do so. Some of them need more training and better leadership. Others tend to be pretty easy. Both are most comfortable with a confident handler. 

I think the reason too many people never graduate from the prong collar, is that it does not build the handler's confidence, at least, not when they take the collar off the dog. Then they are uncertain how the dog is going to behave, and they are transmitting that uncertainty down the leash. Dogs get collar-smart. So do handlers. 

Handlers will put the collar on, just so the dog knows it is there, and the dog will work fine on a flat collar. Fine. But if the dog starts acting up, the other collar can be engaged. Well, there's an issue, we become dependent on the collar. And for some dogs, they learn to listen when the collar is on, when we are willing to drive them.

Some horses are so well trained, their owners can control them completely without a bridle or bit. It is a connection between the horse and the trainer. The horse trusts the rider so completely that he is safe even around serious distractions -- tougher with as flight animal than most predators. Evenso, the horse will turn when the owner uses its body to signal to the horse what they want. I think it is easier to achieve this with a dog if you begin by building confidence and trust between handler and dog. I guess I am always aiming for control without collar or lead.


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## Muskeg

No matter what tool I use my first priority is to have the dog responding to verbal commands and signals. Today we were out hiking and it was clear the dogs all smelled a deer or moose and started to get excited and keyed up. I called them in and had them run behind me for a while to chill out. I do have e-collars on them, but I didn't use them. The collars are there if, for example, we see a porcupine, or a deer runs right out in front of us and the dogs slip up. But I always use my voice first unless it is pure avoidance training (which is perfectly fine for porcupines and also deer with correct timing). 

So is it a bigger stick? Not really. It's a tool I use and keeps us all safe. I hike or run in the woods every day with the dogs and we see deer, bear, moose, porcupines, wolves, coyotes. The e-collar is WELL WORTH the cost of the device when it saves me a $300 vet bill for quill extraction, or the worst case- a dog severely injured or even killed chasing a deer or moose. 

If I didn't do these activities with my dogs, maybe I wouldn't need an e-collar. But I am not willing to take chances, not with multiple dogs, not with the wildlife we regularly see. Not even a question. I will never feel bad for using the tools I use, I have worked hard to make sure I am clear and humane. 

I would not for one second think I should not have the dogs I have because I use e-collars. Nope. 

I'm happy if someone is skilled enough to go tool free when it comes to dog training. But I highly doubt that even the most skilled trainer would not use the tools I use when it comes to the dogs I have and the work I do with them.


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## Jenny720

Even a horse with a bit in its mouth can be dangerous if not well trained. It's the training which is important -bit or no bit. I think a true gifted trainer is open minded , flexible and must be comfortable and confident in using any kind of training aids if chosen. They must know when or not to use it. I find the people who are truly skilled and confident in their skills do not fault others for what they know not about.


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## kriver

Hi,
Try it on the highest level and to give it a fair test Make sure there is a new battery, it is fully charged and isn't an old worn out collar and have someone else zap you with your back turned to them for 10- 15 seconds slow count when you are not expecting it. As for the Mailinois how do you know it will be absolutely reliable with other cats? 1. if he doesn't have the E collar on 24/7 and even if he does the owner still has to have the remote in their hand ready to use. 2. He'll be smart enough to know if he is wearing the collar or not. 3. He could possibly be trained with clicker and treats to accept the cat as his cat and not see it as a threat depending on his background and in a very controlled training situation. Trained only one solid step by one solid step at a time and a lot of patience. Even then I still probably wouldn't trust him completely. 4.Improperly using an E collar contains an inherent risk of breaking the dog mentally and emotionally. Thus destroying him during the training process. 5.He could have had a very bad experience when very young and therefore sees every cat as a threat. The unknowns in that situation are countless in number. But with a rescue you might never know the background so your fighting that too. Or he could be jealous of the attention that is shared. 
I trained my shep/lab with eight different cats. They all got along never any problems between them. It took time and patience. Remember I qualified what I said earlier about the prong and the E collar as in the hands of someone unskilled in its use can be cruel. If the timing isn't just right you defeat its training purpose. If you zap too soon there is no association. Too late you might zap a wanted behavior by mistake. One or two mishaps like that and your training could be shot to blazes in other areas that were good before. The use of an E collar in extreme cases might be necessary to save the dog. But for the average person and situation in regular obedience it is over kill. Where do you go from there if the highest level of punishment training doesn't work and the dog has built up a tolerance to the E collar what then? In short your taking the risk that you might end up with a fried, made crazy, frantic, stressed out, scared, paranoid, nervous dog. This could be the result when the collar is used too much and/or incorrectly. This as far as I'm concerned, is in no uncertain terms a cruel thing to do to someone your suppose to love. It violates the trust they have in you big time. Once violated it is very difficult if not impossible to get back. Protection is a two way street you need to protect them from harm too. This includes potentially harmful trainers and training methods too.

In psych experiments for stress they would put mice in a large box with an electrified floor. They could section off parts of it and electrify the rest. The mice got so they were huddled in the corner and then they electrified that too but not enough to kill them. They died of the induced stress. This to me was a very cruel thing to do because there was no escape. There was literally nothing the mice could do.
Up until the 1960's the psych hospitals used shock therapy to treat depression it did sort of. However, the process kind of fried the persons brain and there was a risk they would turned them into literal zombies not a good thing not to mention the extreme pain. But the patients weren't depressed any more. Only there was one small problem with the cure they didn't have a mind so they didn't care. Some people had it work successfully but it did change their personality not always for the better either.

The E collar induces a lot of stressors on the dog mentally, physically, and emotionally all in the name of quick and dirty training. If the dog can handle the stress that is one thing but what if they can't handle it? What do you do them? Is it really worth the risk to take that chance with someone you love if you don't have to? Remember,in dog training slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Your not in a sprint it is a marathon. But it is not a race who finishes first doesn't matter. It is how well each step of each training goal is accomplished with the dog still mentally, physically, and emotionally thriving that matters. The speed and time it take to get to each training goal is totally unimportant. There is no competition or time table that must be met. Each dog must learn at their own pace and in the best way for them to understand. 

But on the other hand, if you use the lowest level of training that works 1st the dog is better off in the long run. You still accomplish the training goals and you still have other training options available to use. Some people get the E collar because they want quick and easy training not what is best for the dog in question. They don't want to put in the time and the effort it really takes to train an outstanding dog. They think dogs can learn by osmosis. Good training doesn't just happen reliably or over night. It takes a lot of work, time, and patience. If things go south with an untrained dog good luck trying to resolve a major problem even if yours is well trained. The owner needs to be prepared for the worse case situation and how to get their dog out of the situation unscathed if possible. It is about preparation not lack of confidence in training that I had a prong on my dog. I would rather have something available if needed and not use it. Than to not have it and not have the option of using it. But possibly needing it badly at a critical time. 

A board /training situation is different but I too like someone else posted would want to take the time to establish a relationship with the dog 1st working on easy stuff. Take the time to learn, to know, understand the dog, and then work from there. The better you understand the dog the stronger your position will be to help them learn to resolve a problem. Understanding, knowledge, and the skills to use that knowledge becomes the power that will assist you in dealing with a problem area and Helping the dog over come it. The kennel trainer would more than likely use the E collar in training because it is quicker but not necessarily better for the dog. If it is cheaper in time they make more MONEY. They most likely would use the fastest method possible to get the result.

I wouldn't allow just any trainer to train my dog. I have to know and truly trust them, their training background, training style, and beliefs before they ever touched my dog I was at every class and did the training with the guidance of the trainer. We trained from the day I got him at 12wks to the day before he died. He was one day short of his 6th birthday.
I have witnessed the harm a bad trainer can cause an innocent puppy all the while the owner thinks that what the trainer is doing has to be done that way. The owner is totally unaware of the irreparable harm being done to the puppy right in front of them.

Go to the training classes observe how they are taught how they interact with the student owners and the dogs. How do the dogs react to the trainer? What training methods are employed? Then pick a trainer go to every single class and socialize, socialize, socialize. This is especially important for a well balanced German Shepherd Dog.


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## Chip18

newlie said:


> I don't think it is fair to say that people who can't control their dog without a prong should not have the dog at all. For one thing, where will all these extra dogs go when thousands are dying every day for lack of space? Is it really better for them to die than to wear a prong?


 Newlie ... you'll get no grief from me for using a "Prong Collar" properly with your dog. 

And you are correct ... no one is born knowing how to train a Dog. And if you are successful with a Pong Collar with your first dog and your first use of that tool ... then you did better me! 

The only dog I had that did not walk well on a loose leash was my Band Dawg Gunther! Way way back in the day ... I half read a book. Almost did that ... yet again with the E-Collar!!! But the internet age now and "you gave me a head check" with the E-Collar ... half read a book, yet again??? What 15 years later and I was right on the edge of here we go again! With a new tool and a half way understanding of it ... my bad. :

You would think I'd know better, but apparently not?? That was close but no dog and no E-Collar ... worked to my advantage! 

Anyway ... the rest of the story ... I used a "Prong Collar" poorly. Many, many years ago. I slipped it over my Band Dawgs head and well it was all down hill from there! He did walk well off leash but on leash ... he was an elbow wearing PIA! But I never learned! He had no problem with the Prong Collar and my ham fisted use of it! He would see the Prong Collar and he was like ..."Oh yeah ... let's do this thing!!" It pretty much sucked to walk him!! 

When I got Struddell my Boxer ... well a girl you know, so with her I decided ... screw this ... tools suck ... so a regular collar and a flat leash it was! And I got good with that, pretty much Doggy Dan style. I anticipated and watched her and no gagging or pressure on her neck involved! And I wound up doing that over and over with assorted strays I rounded up. No problems, and at my first Boxer rescue event, they handed me a SLL ... I'd never seen one before but you know whatever. I looked at it and said hey what is this little tabby thing for?? I snugged it up on a claimed puller and I never looked back! This thing works!!! But the rest of the story ... it took me about 5 years to figure out how o walk a dog a dog tool free. (Regular Collar and Leash)
But to answer your question as to what happens with dogs (at shelters that don't allow the use of Prong Collars??) The answer is simple ... they put them down, if the dog can't be control on leash! They simply will not allow a "Prong Collar" to be used on there dogs ... end of story.

I got a PM from a member awhile back asking me about using a SLL, no problem ... happy to explain. So back and forth we go and then at some point ... I find out she has a pretty serious GSD??? So you know not a rookie and she is an experienced "Prong Collar" user?? So I ask ... her ... well you seem to know what you are doing?? So why are you asking me about a SLL??? And her answer was simple ...* "I want to help dogs in rescue now and the shelters will not allow me to use a "Prong Collar"* on there dogs. So not just me ... with one's own dog one is free to use whatever tool they are comfortable and skilled at using. But in rescue ... you don't have that option. 

So yeah I happen to "apparently excel" at the use of a tool that shelters can't use properly??? But that does not mean I pass adjustments on others??? But you never know ... this week I'm going to volunteer at a Shelter in Washoe Valley (that's close to me) and if I'm lucky ... I'll get to work with a 140 lb Boerboel of all things???? They say he's a nice dog ... but he has no on leash manners! That should be fun and yep ... no "Prongs Allowed" . 

He's actually available for adoption but sigh ... I could most likely sneak a puppy Boerboel past Marilyn but ... 140 lbs of mostly fully grown Boerbel ... yeah ...not so much. 

At any rate ... I'm firmly in the middle (tool wise) ... no judgement and good job by you.


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## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Wait, so now prong collars are preventing dogs from "savaging" people? I am also unclear as to what bears escaping and mauling people has to do with prong collars.
> 
> ?????
> 
> The only working guide dog I have known personally wore a choke chain well into its career and got a sharp correction for ever slipping up on manners or duties. I was friends with the trainer who cared for it when the owner was hospitalized.
> 
> As for going for the "big" guns...I contend that they aren't necessarily bigger. Especially the e collar. I don't use an e collar because it is more powerful or more painful than myself...or whatever correction I can personally give a dog. I use an e collar because it allows me to give physical communication from a distance that would be impossible otherwise. I don't say to myself, this dog is tough, time to bring our the bigger stick. I say to myself, this situation requires physical communization at a distance past what my arms or leash can do.
> 
> A prong collar is less comfortable for a dog to wear. but again, I have watched dozens of dogs leaning into a flat collar hard enough to gag...and they appeared content to continue to do so, these dogs will stop that behavior much faster on a prong and it is in their best interest of stop doing that since t it's harmful to them. My takeaway is again, that for some reason dogs are not bothered by gagging themselves on a flat collar but they will avoid pressure on the prong which is superficial and does not really hurt them.
> 
> I say it does not hurt them because I have never seen a dog get broken skin by a prong and my personal evidence for the less pressure on the trachea is that they gag on a flat collar and they do not gag on a prong. They may whine in discomfort at first. But that is from the skin pinch/poke. This is a case where I don't think the dog's preference ought to be heeded if that makes sense. Maybe they don't mind gagging, but i do.
> 
> @Selzer, do you walk all of your dogs daily? I am guessing not due to numbers. Do you walk any of your dogs daily? in what kind of environment?
> 
> I get the sense that you don't walk all of your dogs or hike with your dogs regularly.
> 
> You often mention going from the house to the car...i've never needed or used a prong, e collar or leash for that matter to get from house to car


Nope. I do not walk all of my dogs daily. Well, 6 of the dogs are age 9 or older, they really do not need a lot of exercise. Then I have one each at 6, 7, and 8 years. 3 four year olds, and 3 under two. 

I have my out behind my property, and county property beyond that where I sometimes take a dog into, but mostly I prefer to walk on sidewalks, and since I don't have sidewalks, I have to load a dog or occasionally two into the car and drive them into town or over to the bike path. The village park is fine, but the last two times I walked a dog over there we brought back a tick. I think I have fewer ticks here because my dogs barking, tends to make wildlife go the other way, so to speak.


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> Nope. I do not walk all of my dogs daily. Well, 6 of the dogs are age 9 or older, they really do not need a lot of exercise. Then I have one each at 6, 7, and 8 years. 3 four year olds, and 3 under two.


This is an aside, but doesn't exercise become even more important as a dog ages? I've seen senior enrichment classes designed to help keep dogs' minds sharp. Even if the dog is slowing down, I should think trying to retain as much muscle tone and fitness as possible through daily walks could only help a senior dog stay healthy and happy longer.


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## Slamdunc

This thread is full of a lot of assumptions, beliefs and a good deal of misinformation. I wouldn't even no where to start to correct some of it, because it is impossible to change the minds of some of the posters. 

I would start by saying that there is nothing wrong in the proper use of a prong collar. It has to be fitted properly and the dog conditioned to it. You do not "slip" it over the dogs head, it has to be opened, either by separating the links or a french snap and fitted high under the mastoid, where it can not easily move around. You never put a closed prong collar over a dog's head to put one on. If some one is doing this, you are using it incorrectly. 

Prong collars are not for every dog, nor does every dog need one. They are for training or wearing while the dog is on a walk if needed. There is no shame in that, it is like power steering on a car, for those that can remember cars with out power steering. Prong collars should not be worn around the house or when the dog is loose in the yard, just like a slip collar or choke chain should not be worn 24/7. The collar should be put on when needed, i.e. for training then removed a short time later. 

Can dogs be trained without a prong collar, sure the majority of GSD's can. Can all GSD's be managed in all situations with out a prong, no they can not. There are dogs that benefit from the training value of a prong. To say that if you can not manage a dog with out a prong then you shouldn't own the dog is really silly. 

My dogs are well trained, in control and could easily pass an AKC Rally test tomorrow with no collar or leash. Does that mean I take Boomer or Boru to work or out in public with out a prong, absolutely not. Why? Because these dogs are at a different level that the vast majority of GSD"s and even Malinois. Am I embarrassed or apologizing for using the correct tool for the job? No, I use what works. Can I handle my dogs on their leather flat collar, yes I can. Could someone else take my trained dogs and work them on a flat collar to prove a point? No, you couldn't, you wouldn't and to think one could is ridiculous. They work for me because they have been trained to a high level of precision with a prong and even an E collar. Can I work them now after extensive training with out a prong, yes I can. Could I have trained them with out a prong collar to be as functional and reliable, I doubt it. I certify every year and have competed with Boomer with a fur saver collar, a terrible collar for corrections. No corrections are allowed in certification out IPO competitions. 

The problem here is that many folks live in a bit of a bubble, your dog responds well in your backyard or when you walk it down the street. That makes everything easy and all you need is a flat collar, which is perfect for your dogs. Other folks think they a savage beast on the end of their leash and in fact they have a spoiled out of control dog. Many folks will say they believe they can handle their dog in every situation, but they have never handled a high drive dog or done any real protection work, either sport or real work. If your dog can do it, (most GSD's can't do protection work) try to work your dog in obedience while a decoy is present and has just agitated your dog. Give your dog a bite, have the decoy fight him hard, verbally out the dog and then do your obedience up to and around the decoy. Train all of this on a flat collar. If the dog truly has heart, drive and the desire to fight it will be an eye opening experience. Because all that control that you have on your dog in your yard will be out the window on a flat collar. I've seen it many times over the years. This is called "proofing" and if you have never done it, all you have is your belief that every dog can be trained on a flat collar. 

If you never plan on working your dogs in real drive, never plan to compete at sports that require extensive control and serious obedience, then by all means use what works. I own dogs that I train with a prong, some days they wear it at work, some days they don't. They never wear it at home, nor when I take them off lead down my driveway to my car. I have control, but I live in the real world and know that others lack control when they walk their dogs. I can call my dogs off deer, horses, cats. people and loose dogs. Yet, they still wear a prong for training and sometimes even at work. 

There should be no a stigma attached to a person that walks their dog on a prong collar or trains their dog on a prong collar. Using a prong collar does not make one unfit to own dogs or unable to manage their dogs.


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## lhczth

Excellent post Jim.


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## selzer

Muskeg said:


> No matter what tool I use my first priority is to have the dog responding to verbal commands and signals. Today we were out hiking and it was clear the dogs all smelled a deer or moose and started to get excited and keyed up. I called them in and had them run behind me for a while to chill out. I do have e-collars on them, but I didn't use them. The collars are there if, for example, we see a porcupine, or a deer runs right out in front of us and the dogs slip up. But I always use my voice first unless it is pure avoidance training (which is perfectly fine for porcupines and also deer with correct timing).
> 
> So is it a bigger stick? Not really. It's a tool I use and keeps us all safe. I hike or run in the woods every day with the dogs and we see deer, bear, moose, porcupines, wolves, coyotes. The e-collar is WELL WORTH the cost of the device when it saves me a $300 vet bill for quill extraction, or the worst case- a dog severely injured or even killed chasing a deer or moose.
> 
> If I didn't do these activities with my dogs, maybe I wouldn't need an e-collar. But I am not willing to take chances, not with multiple dogs, not with the wildlife we regularly see. Not even a question. I will never feel bad for using the tools I use, I have worked hard to make sure I am clear and humane.
> 
> *I would not for one second think I should not have the dogs I have because I use e-collars. Nope*.
> 
> I'm happy if someone is skilled enough to go tool free when it comes to dog training. But I highly doubt that even the most skilled trainer would not use the tools I use when it comes to the dogs I have and the work I do with them.


It is almost like people are deliberately misunderstanding.

There is a difference between using an e-collar or prong collar, and needing an e-collar or prong collar to manage the dog. When someone talks about a ninety some pound woman and a 120 pound dog, with respect to having to have a prong collar, well in my opinion, she shouldn't have the dog. Because if the only way she can manage the dog that is larger than she is, is to put a nose ring on him so he won't tear his nose up, and therefore will not drag her to wherever he wants to go, than that is no way to own a dog. 

That is not suggesting that small women can't own a big dog. Small women that NEED a prong collar to own a particular dog, that's a problem. Small women can use a prong collar for training or exercise, but if they cannot manage the dog without it, they have no business owning the dog. 

If you have had a dog for 1-3 months, and he is still going to charge out of your hands if he sees a deer or a squirrel, if he does not have a prong collar on, that you are failing in training the dog. Get a trainer. One that isn't just going to slap an e-collar on the dog and tell you to go to town. I know there is a application for crittering using an e-collar, and if the object is to teach the dog to suppress his instinct or prey drive, fine, that's temporary, that's teaching. I'd do it differently, but I am not opposed to this. But keeping a dog on an e-collar forever because you might see a deer? I don't know, I would think that the training was not done correctly. 

But again, the suggestion has been made, not by Muskeg, but by cowboygirl I think, that if I don't need a special collar, I must not be taking my dogs where they can see critters. Eh! Not so. My dogs see rabbits, and squirrels, cats, and deer, and even raccoons on occasion, and my boy that doesn't like horses -- they drive by daily in Amish country, LOL. And my critters can be totally naked and they can handle it under voice control -- that is what we want. We need to be able to call a dog back, collar or no collar, because leashes slip, a collar can come open, and so forth.

Really the leash is so that other people feel confident around my dogs. Ideally, it isn't there to connect the dog to me, to keep him from running off, to keep him from getting squashed in the road, to keep other animals safe from him, to know if we are going left or right, or to make him sit or down. The leash and collar are bling. The training is the connection between the dog and the handler. In the beginning, the leash is necessary as the pup is not trained yet. For safety's sake we use a leash anywhere the dog might get himself in trouble, the woods, the front yard, on walks, in class. But soon, we begin to let him off lead in the front yard, and we help him with our voice to stay close and in "Our Yard" with no leash on. 

I have an inner, invisible boundary to my yard, and I will call when the dog reaches that point, It's much closer parallel to the road, than parallel to my neighbor's property lines. Because the danger of the road is more. But in the yard, they learn to turn away from the boundary and back to me, whether we have a bicycle or a horse going by or if the neighbors have their dogs out. Soon, they know where they are allowed to be, and stay within my inner boundary. It isn't hard. 

Ideally, my dogs will walk next to me without a leash on public sidewalks, sitting when I stop before going across streets. But I don't expect dogs to do that right away. First I teach the heel on a martingale and lead, and we get really good at it. We learn to finish and to about turn, to make right turns and 270s and 360s, and left turns, and left about, right about, around about. We get really good with the stay command, and the emergency down. I will trot away from the dog on a down stay, and run up to the dog on a down stay. Sometimes I will sail over the dog on a down stay -- it is training, and the dog has to stay, unconnected, and come 100%, and then when those are down we will begin working without the lead. We start, generally in a safe place, a fenced yard, maybe or a park, a 3/4 fenced parking lot at off hours, or the bike path. 

And we do it all over again, the sits when I stop, the about turns, left, right, around, the finishes, the fast pace, the slow pace. Maybe we add in a bicycle. Maybe we are riding the bicycle. 

"Is that dog even on lead???" Nope. She is running by my left pedal where she is safe, and she stops and sits when I stop. Can't do that if your dog is going to bolt at a squirrel or deer, nor can you do that with a lead if the dog will bolt or you will be flat on the ground nursing road rash. If I run a dog next to my bike where there is traffic, I will connect the leash, the bling, for the benefit of other drivers. 

The prong collar does not get you there. The dog and the handler become dependent on the prong, and then they limit how far their dog can go. And all I get on this site is how people believe that their dogs will be better trained if they use a prong. I find the opposite is true. A lot of dogs out there are hovering between under control and out of control with the medium being a group of pointy links around the dog's neck. 

Little women handle big horses, and large dogs just fine. They do not need prong collars. They build a connection with the dog. It is called leadership and training. I think the prong begins as a crutch or training wheels and morphs into a wheel chair. 

Look at dogs. Why can a Yorkie lift up its tail and act like the boss, and big dogs give way and let him? Because dogs don't think like humans. They do not react to your size, they react to the power that you imply through body language. A dog or a horse will blow off a big man who is acting awkward because they know he has no confidence, and the same dog or horse will shape up and fly right under a small woman who walks in and takes control. She don't NEED a collar to do that. She needs hutzpah, balls, nerve, gravitas. 

Not everyone is right for our breed. Shy people will often have shy dogs. Why, because our dogs are in tune with us. If we stiffen up at the approach of a person, hoping they do not ask us anything, the dog will read the vibes and probably react in some way. Some shy people should probably forgo this breed. But GSDs can help shy people come out of their shells, if they are willing to try. People will often walk on by a person, but say hi to a person with a dog. Dogs can be a great way to start a conversation, and you can easily relate to, have something in common with others who like dogs, and it makes it easier. So they can be used by shy people. So, not all shy people, not all weaker people should avoid this breed. I guess the point is that it isn't always natural, we have to grow with our dogs, and build on our skills. I think that the collars can limit that growth. 

Most of the people who are defending the collars are not talking about taking them off-lead through town or out in the country. Mostly they are talking about making walking a dog bearable. Those usng e-collars for hikes in the country, I dunno. I don't find it necessary, but I prefer to walk one dog at a time, hike with one dog at a time. There just wouldn't be much bonding going on if I had three of them out there and was trying to work their e-collars. What a total drag. It would not be fun for me. Now I can let 3 dogs loose in the front yard, and watch them run and chase each other, play, etc, but a quick "Our Yard!" or "LEAVE IT!" will provide what I want. I only have to work my mouth, and I am pretty good at that.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Applause, Slamdunc!!! I can't hit "like" on my phone. 

As for 9 y/o not needing exercise, at 9 my dog was still working and doing her full job. At 10.5 she is officially retired but still walks 1-2 miles daily and does training besides on most days. Yesterday we got a trick title for fun. At 10.5 she is NOT content to lay around and I bet her activity level is at least partly responsible for how well she does for her age. her eyes are going and her teeth are going but her joints are pretty darn awesome for an old gal and she can even still do a pretty, floaty trot.

I modify our walks based on what training we did that day. Sometimes like when I track or dock dive my younger dog, we do the mile loop through the woods only. If I do some light rally training, minimal physical exertion ,or if he is a bozo that day, we do the 2 mile road walk (about half of which they get to be offleash)

Usually we do the mile thru the woods if it is very hot too, because after 4pm the whole loop is 90% shade and there is a creek they can stop in


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## voodoolamb

> Try it on the highest level and to give it a fair test Make sure there is a new battery, it is fully charged and isn't an old worn out collar and have someone else zap you with your back turned to them for 10- 15 seconds slow count when you are not expecting it.


Been there. Done that. Got the t shirt. It was a blast. We shocked the heck out of each other for funzies. My fiends are weird but I love them...Sure it hurt a bit, momentarily, but it was not emotionally scaring.



> As for the Mailinois how do you know it will be absolutely reliable with other cats? 1. if he doesn't have the E collar on 24/7 and even if he does the owner still has to have the remote in their hand ready to use. 2. He'll be smart enough to know if he is wearing the collar or not. 3. He could possibly be trained with clicker and treats to accept the cat as his cat and not see it as a threat depending on his background and in a very controlled training situation. Trained only one solid step by one solid step at a time and a lot of patience. Even then I still probably wouldn't trust him completely. 4.Improperly using an E collar contains an inherent risk of breaking the dog mentally and emotionally. Thus destroying him during the training process. 5.He could have had a very bad experience when very young and therefore sees every cat as a threat. The unknowns in that situation are countless in number. But with a rescue you might never know the background so your fighting that too. Or he could be jealous of the attention that is shared. I trained my shep/lab with eight different cats. They all got along never any problems between them. It took time and patience.


Or he could be a dog with a genetic predisposition for high prey drive that all the clickers and treats in the world will NOT be more rewarding then the release of chasing the cat. 

It is awesome you were able to train your lab mix to deal with cats, however that was one dog and of a mix that is not generally found on the insane side of the prey drive spectrum. I'm a pit person. I've dealt with a LOT of animal aggression and prey drive in my dogs. One does not click and treat them away.



kriver said:


> Up until the 1960's the psych hospitals used shock therapy to treat depression it did sort of. However, the process kind of fried the persons brain and there was a risk they would turned them into literal zombies not a good thing not to mention the extreme pain. But the patients weren't depressed any more. Only there was one small problem with the cure they didn't have a mind so they didn't care. Some people had it work successfully but it did change their personality not always for the better either.


From my understanding Electroconvulsive therapy fell out of favor in the 1960s thanks to the rise in popularity of the first SSRIs which only came onto the scene in the later 1950s... not because it turned people into mindless zombies. If I am not mistaken... I do believe that ECT has undergone a bit of a resurgence since the 1980s as it is a treatment that offers the most immediate results and the only option available for medication resistant mental illnesses... Its a therapy offered by some of the most prestigious and well regarded medical associations in the world... like the Mayo clinic. 

But it's a good analogy in a way... Public perceptions of ECT is that it is barbaric. Public perception of e collars is the same. Both things may have historically been inhumane but the modern incarnations of both are safe and in some cases the BEST options available.



> The E collar induces a lot of stressors on the dog mentally, physically, and emotionally all in the name of quick and dirty training. If the dog can handle the stress that is one thing but what if they can't handle it? What do you do them? Is it really worth the risk to take that chance with someone you love if you don't have to? Remember,in dog training slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Your not in a sprint it is a marathon. But it is not a race who finishes first doesn't matter. It is how well each step of each training goal is accomplished with the dog still mentally, physically, and emotionally thriving that matters. The speed and time it take to get to each training goal is totally unimportant. There is no competition or time table that must be met. Each dog must learn at their own pace and in the best way for them to understand.


Why do you have the impression that e collar use is a "quick fix"? I personally have found it takes close to the same amount of time to train with an e collar as other methods. All depends on the dog. But there is still the luring, teaching, building up the 3Ds and proofing. Proofing is where e collar use really shines - and that is the LAST STEP in teaching a command. So how is it that e collars really make things faster?

Have you ever used an e collar before? You seem to be under the impression that everyone is out there zapping their dogs on full blast all of the time. Most people who I know who uses them have dogs that have a working stim level in the teens or lower 20s...



> In short your taking the risk that you might end up with a fried, made crazy, frantic, stressed out, scared, paranoid, nervous dog. This could be the result when the collar is used too much and/or incorrectly. This as far as I'm concerned, is in no uncertain terms a cruel thing to do to someone your suppose to love. It violates the trust they have in you big time. Once violated it is very difficult if not impossible to get back. Protection is a two way street you need to protect them from harm too. This includes potentially harmful trainers and training methods too.


look at this nervous dog...





And our HORRIBLE bond...






I have given him a couple of accidental and poorly timed corrections. Corrections that were too hard. Hes gotten accidental zaps with the e collar - even on high levels (I was trying to use the vibration and sound function to train other things) I will admit it. I am no expert dog trainer. I make mistakes. He bounced back and we moved on with our day. A sound dog will not buckle under normal e collar use.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Doing stuff in your yard is such a far cry from doing it in a totally unpredictable circumstance, and daily. I couldn't agree more with Muskeg's post about E Collars hiking. My policy is basically identical. You never know what might happen out there. I wasn't kidding about the herd of deer that ran thru us, they literally spooked from off to the left of the trail, bolted across the wide path we were on, my dogs were spread out when it happened and there were deer behind me, in front of me, between me and my dogs, between them and each other. I didn't lose a dog.

I don't tell everyone I meet that they must e collar train their dog. I don't care if anyone else does or not. it works for me and mine. One reason I use collars indefinitely is I like the vibe feature. I know a lot of people don't use it but I think it's great. Plus I think Muskeg uses a gps collar which is prudent. Heaven forbid we get separated from our dogs, mine would only not come back if they were physically unable and hers (?) are probably the same...and that's when it might be life or death to be able to locate your dog.

The horse and dog comparison is limited. You can get a lot of control nonviolently by round penning a horse. You can't round pen a dog. 

A tool is not a crutch.


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## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Doing stuff in your yard is such a far cry from doing it in a totally unpredictable circumstance, and daily. I couldn't agree more with Muskeg's post about E Collars hiking. My policy is basically identical. You never know what might happen out there. I wasn't kidding about the herd of deer that ran thru us, they literally spooked from off to the left of the trail, bolted across the wide path we were on, my dogs were spread out when it happened and there were deer behind me, in front of me, between me and my dogs, between them and each other. I didn't lose a dog.
> 
> I don't tell everyone I meet that they must e collar train their dog. I don't care if anyone else does or not. it works for me and mine. One reason I use collars indefinitely is I like the vibe feature. I know a lot of people don't use it but I think it's great. Plus I think Muskeg uses a gps collar which is prudent. Heaven forbid we get separated from our dogs, mine would only not come back if they were physically unable and hers (?) are probably the same...and that's when it might be life or death to be able to locate your dog.
> 
> The horse and dog comparison is limited. You can get a lot of control nonviolently by round penning a horse. You can't round pen a dog.
> 
> A tool is not a crutch.



A crutch is a tool. A crop is a tool. A whip is a tool. A cattle prod is a tool. A crate is a tool. A collar is a tool. All can be abused. I think some tools are easier to abuse than others. I think using a level of correction that is beyond what a dog needs is a form of abuse. I think way too many people are way too heavy handed with puppies and young dogs before they have put time or energy into training them. 

If I was using a crop as a negative marker with my dogs, people here would have a cow. What's the difference between correcting with a zap on an e-collar, or a correction with a prong, or with a crop? One would be considered abusive here. Just a tool. I bet someone could get good results with a crop. Would that be ok with you? I bet someone could make an argument that their use of the crop is reasonable and humane. Should no one else be allowed to question it or disagree with it?

I will go one further, it used to be fairly common to choke out a dog with a choke chain. That is, hang them up with that until the dog passes out. Was it wrong for people to question that and move away from that?

As for doing stuff in my yard. My yard has woods and county property behind it for acres. But I really don't do much there because I like sidewalks as I have mentioned. But I took a dog, usually Babsy, but sometimes Dolly and Heidi (when Babs was in heat) and even Mufasa to down town Cleveland, all over the building, parking lot and grounds of a very public building, usually using no leash and certainly no correction collars. We chased people of the neighborhood out of the bushes and escorted them up to the road. We were off lead and open to the road while I would drag the gates closed an thread the chain through and padlock it. We went all over, no leash, very unpredictable, carts, fights, people of all types, sometimes drunk. Ah well.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I have seen some trainers I have a lot of respect for using horse whips to control dogs and I do not think it is abusive at all.

I guess I agree that some tools are easier to abuse than others....I just disagree with the notion that the use of a particular tool At ALL, ever, is abusive, or unacceptable, as indicated by your statement that people who use prongs ought not own dogs.

I would even agree that there are plenty of people who go to the prong too soon on too young of a dog or other things I wouldn't do. But to me it is like "just say no" to drugs... those people are all out there with their prongs...I would rather not shame them, I would rather try to teach them to be the best dog handlers they can be, whether they are using a prong or not, because I think that helps them and the dog more than saying "you shouldn't own that dog"


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## WateryTart

I'm just gonna leave these here...

The Punishment of Positive-Only »

The Death Of Dog Training - The Driven Dog


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## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have seen some trainers I have a lot of respect for using horse whips to control dogs and I do not think it is abusive at all.
> 
> I guess I agree that some tools are easier to abuse than others....I just disagree with the notio*n that the use of a particular tool At ALL, ever, is abusive, or unacceptable, as indicated by your statement that people who use prongs ought not own dogs.*
> 
> I would even agree that there are plenty of people who go to the prong too soon on too young of a dog or other things I wouldn't do. But to me it is like "just say no" to drugs... those people are all out there with their prongs...I would rather not shame them, I would rather try to teach them to be the best dog handlers they can be, whether they are using a prong or not, because I think that helps them and the dog more than saying "you shouldn't own that dog"


I have NEVER said this, not once, not ever. I said that if a person could not manage a dog without a prong collar, they should not own the dog. Totally different. I am sorry that you cannot understand the difference.

Most people, if their loose, collarless dog runs after a small kid or dog, they can jump after them and pull the dog away and out of trouble. Or they can give a firm NO! and LEAVE IT! and keep the dog from harming someone. They may find it easier to train or exercise their dog with a prong, but they CAN manage the dog without one. 

Those who cannot manage the dog without a collar like a prong or an e-collar -- they should not have the dog. 

I have even suggested a prong for some people in some situations. But I do believe there are people out there that shouldn't own the dog they have because the dog is out of control and they really do not have the ability to control the dog. This is a recipe for disaster, and when that disaster strikes, all of us with formidable dogs take a hit.


----------



## Chip18

Chip18 said:


> Anyway ... the rest of the story ...* I used a "Prong Collar" poorly*. Many, many years ago.* I slipped it over my Band Dawgs head and well it was all down hill from there!* He did walk well off leash but on leash ... he was an elbow wearing PIA! But I never learned! He had no problem with the Prong Collar and my ham fisted use of it! He would see the Prong Collar and he was like ..."Oh yeah ... let's do this thing!!" It pretty much sucked to walk him!!


Just to quote "me" accurately. 

It's hardly a recommendation or a condemnation?? It's merely my experience on how I many, many years ago got the "Prong"thing wrong in the beginning. 

These days I Stand pat with "Any tool improperly used can be abused."


----------



## WateryTart

selzer said:


> I have NEVER said this, not once, not ever. I said that if a person could not manage a dog without a prong collar, they should not own the dog. Totally different. I am sorry that you cannot understand the difference.
> 
> Most people, if their loose, collarless dog runs after a small kid or dog, they can jump after them and pull the dog away and out of trouble. Or they can give a firm NO! and LEAVE IT! and keep the dog from harming someone. They may find it easier to train or exercise their dog with a prong, but they CAN manage the dog without one.
> 
> Those who cannot manage the dog without a collar like a prong or an e-collar -- they should not have the dog.
> 
> I have even suggested a prong for some people in some situations. But I do believe there are people out there that shouldn't own the dog they have because the dog is out of control and they really do not have the ability to control the dog. This is a recipe for disaster, and when that disaster strikes, all of us with formidable dogs take a hit.


To be fair, I think her real point is that saying, "If you can't control the dog without a prong, then you shouldn't own the dog at all" is dismissive and unhelpful. It doesn't teach the owner anything. It doesn't help them become a better handler. It doesn't help them control the dog. It really doesn't accomplish anything.

But we'll have to agree to disagree, there.


----------



## GypsyGhost

selzer said:


> I have NEVER said this, not once, not ever. I said that if a person could not manage a dog without a prong collar, they should not own the dog. Totally different. I am sorry that you cannot understand the difference.
> 
> Most people, if their loose, collarless dog runs after a small kid or dog, they can jump after them and pull the dog away and out of trouble. Or they can give a firm NO! and LEAVE IT! and keep the dog from harming someone. They may find it easier to train or exercise their dog with a prong, but they CAN manage the dog without one.
> 
> Those who cannot manage the dog without a collar like a prong or an e-collar -- they should not have the dog.
> 
> I have even suggested a prong for some people in some situations. But I do believe there are people out there that shouldn't own the dog they have because the dog is out of control and they really do not have the ability to control the dog. This is a recipe for disaster, and when that disaster strikes, all of us with formidable dogs take a hit.


I'm starting to think you and I mean different things when we say "manage". For me, manage means keeping my dog and the public safe, while providing the least amount of conflict between me and my dog. The easiest way for me to do that is with a prong collar. Does this mean I jump straight to a prong collar correction all the time? No. Of course not. I will use my voice first if it is a situation where my dog will easily and readily respond to a voice reminder. If the prong snaps off, do I panic that I have no control over some wild, loose heck beast? Nope. I can use my body and my voice in that situation, and while that might terrify the general public if my dog is in a state of drive, it would get the job done. I have plenty of other tools in my belt if my chosen tool happens to fail.

Now, my male doesn't have a great temperament. And maybe he shouldn't be owned by your standards. But, I have worked really hard to make him safe. Lots and lots of training, both on leash and off, with tools and without. And if keeping him safe means using a prong collar, I'm not going to apologize for that. To lump everyone that uses correction collars on a regular basis together and say that it means you haven't done a good enough job training your dog is, frankly, offensive. Not everyone has an easy dog. I don't judge you for saying your dogs don't need correction collars. It would be nice to have the favor returned.


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## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> I have NEVER said this, not once, not ever. I said that if a person could not manage a dog without a prong collar, they should not own the dog. Totally different. I am sorry that you cannot understand the difference.
> 
> Most people, if their loose, collarless dog runs after a small kid or dog, they can jump after them and pull the dog away and out of trouble. Or they can give a firm NO! and LEAVE IT! and keep the dog from harming someone. They may find it easier to train or exercise their dog with a prong, but they CAN manage the dog without one.
> 
> Those who cannot manage the dog without a collar like a prong or an e-collar -- they should not have the dog.
> 
> I have even suggested a prong for some people in some situations. But I do believe there are people out there that shouldn't own the dog they have because the dog is out of control and they really do not have the ability to control the dog. This is a recipe for disaster, and when that disaster strikes, all of us with formidable dogs take a hit.


Umm. Okay I guess. Seems like splitting hairs to me. 

And it doesn't really matter at the end of the day either, because by this logic I shouldn't have had my old male who died last year. When my reward only training failed with him, and I realized how dangerous he was, I threw out my old ideas and learned how to use an e collar. Because I did that, he did not kill my livestock or pets or anyone else's. What other options did he have? We were his 6th or 7th home by the third year of his life and he was quite unadoptable for a few different reasons. If we had surrendered him anywhere and told the truth about him, he would have been euthanized. Instead he got to live until the not ripe enough age of 10 when cancer took him and he died in mine and my husband's arms.

I guarantee no one in the world could have stopped him from killing without an e collar unless he lived out his life confined to a 6' privacy fence yard or kennel. And in order to get him that he would have had to be adoptable, which he wasn't. I suppose I could have built him a privacy fence yard and confined him to that for the rest of his life instead of using the e collar but I believed and still do that what I did was way more humane.

I am not a person who believes every dog should and must be saved...but if the dog is already in the hands of someone willing and able to do the work with the necessary tool then why should the dog not be saved?

And I *think* you have made some quite disparaging comments about prong collars Selzer moreso than what you seem to be saying here but I'd have to go try and look them up somewhere and probably don't have time to do that...


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

WateryTart said:


> To be fair, I think her real point is that saying, "If you can't control the dog without a prong, then you shouldn't own the dog at all" is dismissive and unhelpful. It doesn't teach the owner anything. It doesn't help them become a better handler. It doesn't help them control the dog. It really doesn't accomplish anything.
> 
> But we'll have to agree to disagree, there.


If you mean me, then yes that is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say and you said it better than me 

I'd even go a step further and say I know for a fact in my area there are a lot of people using prongs and e collars "in secret" because the area is somewhat dominated by pure positive trainers who really shame people for resorting to this stuff. I really think it is counter productive. Those are the people and the dogs who need the most help...not "prong shaming" ha ha. I just invented a new term.


----------



## WateryTart

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If you mean me, then yes that is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say and you said it better than me
> 
> I'd even go a step further and say I know for a fact in my area there are a lot of people using prongs and e collars "in secret" because the area is somewhat dominated by pure positive trainers who really shame people for resorting to this stuff. I really think it is counter productive. Those are the people and the dogs who need the most help...not "prong shaming" ha ha. I just invented a new term.


And prong shaming is just such a stupid thing to do. It's really very counterproductive. It isn't helping the dog at all.


----------



## Casto

This one just keeps going and going... lol My dogs get conditionally trained the first bit of life ("yes" treat, praise or nooooo) depending if he/she listens or not) @ 3 months they get some balance (as in I take away treats and use a prong tool, one Ive had for years) My dog will get obedience training with a prong tool for the next 3 months. Jupiter rarely got corrected because he already had basic obedience down for the most part. At 6 months it comes off for good and we start Classical and Counter Conditioning training for more advanced stuff.

My dogs have never had any formal training other than me and this is what has worked...for me. Could I not use a prong, yeah, sure, most likely but I know how I feel when those commands are concrete in him. I know he will Down when I tell him too. Down stay forever, and Im sure Jupiter had separation issues when his drag leash wasnt flowing in the wind behind him while he was running. I know he will "OFF" when his prey drive kicks in on the trails during walks. he has seen it both ways, he gets a treat for listenting there in the back of his mind ... it might hurt a little bit if I disobey. Also, at times and depending on who, flat collar pops can put more pressure on a dog than someone with a prong collar who knows what they are doing. Also, someone who trains with a prong correctly can make a flat collar pop way more effective in the future, just saying. 

My goal is for my dogs to graduate to a flat collar and not have to use a prong at all, having peace of mind while off leash in public. 

this is ALL just PERSONAL EXPERIENCE for me but i thought i would share.


----------



## Steve Strom

WateryTart said:


> And prong shaming is just such a stupid thing to do. It's really very counterproductive. It isn't helping the dog at all.


Prong shaming,,,,Lol. Oh, the humiliation,,,, how can I ever face people again?? Every dog I've ever owned has worn one.


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## WIBackpacker

Piggybacking on points above....

Thecowboysgirl and GypsyGhost could obviously "manage" the dogs they've described, without any collars at all, if they were kept at home locked up in a box of some sort. Big box, little box, indoor box, outdoor box, whatever. 

I would argue that those dogs have/had a MUCH higher quality of life because tools enable(d) them to safely enjoy outings, exercise, training, travel. 

Given the choice, I know what I would pick.

A few years ago I threw a handful of car keys, full speed, at one of my dogs to stop her from ending up face-first in a porcupine. 

Am I proud of it? No. Would I do it again? Yes.

Would she have obeyed a verbal "LEAVE-IT"? Maybe. Probably. Was I going to test this out, miles from the nearest road and hours from the nearest town? No. 

If she had been wearing an ecollar, would a stim correction have been more "humane" than a handful of metal thrown at her? Maybe. Does she have any lasting damage, fear of keys, fear of me? None, zero, zilch.

Would she be happier locked up safe at home while I camp in porcupine country without her for the rest of her life? I highly doubt it. 

I just cannot look down on corrections or training equipment that allows dogs to have a more active and full life.


----------



## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Umm. Okay I guess. Seems like splitting hairs to me.
> 
> And it doesn't really matter at the end of the day either, because by this logic I shouldn't have had my old male who died last year. When my reward only training failed with him, and I realized how dangerous he was, I threw out my old ideas and learned how to use an e collar. Because I did that, he did not kill my livestock or pets or anyone else's. What other options did he have? We were his 6th or 7th home by the third year of his life and he was quite unadoptable for a few different reasons. If we had surrendered him anywhere and told the truth about him, he would have been euthanized. Instead he got to live until the not ripe enough age of 10 when cancer took him and he died in mine and my husband's arms.


I'm sorry you lost him so early. 

And you did good, that is precisely, the type of dog ... that Shelters can't help. How he managed to make it through so many homes and to you ... is most likely a story in itself. You did good.


----------



## selzer

WateryTart said:


> To be fair, I think her real point is that saying, "If you can't control the dog without a prong, then you shouldn't own the dog at all" is dismissive and unhelpful. It doesn't teach the owner anything. It doesn't help them become a better handler. It doesn't help them control the dog. It really doesn't accomplish anything.
> 
> But we'll have to agree to disagree, there.





Thecowboysgirl said:


> If you mean me, then yes that is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say and you said it better than me
> 
> I'd even go a step further and say I know for a fact in my area there are a lot of people using prongs and e collars "in secret" because the area is somewhat dominated by pure positive trainers who really shame people for resorting to this stuff. I really think it is counter productive. Those are the people and the dogs who need the most help...not "prong shaming" ha ha. I just invented a new term.


But we are discussing prong collars, not an individual's use of one, which might be splitting hairs, but I defy anyone to hear me shaming any OP for using a prong collar. In fact, ALL of my conversations about the use of prong collars come after people have made fun of people who train without them, whether by saying their dogs (dogs without prong collars that other people are walking) are dragging them down the street, or saying something like, "well, not every dog or situation gets fixed by shoving a cookie in front of them. Then, I climb onto my high horse and say, "no, you do not NEED to use them, you can have nicely trained dogs without them." And then the prong collar posse comes along to take everything out of context and accuse me of all sorts of things, because to them, what is disparaging is to suggest that our breed can be both managed and trained without the collars. Whoo hoo! 

And Watery Tart, WE do not have to agree to disagree about anything. If you will ask, then maybe I will agree to such a thing, but I certainly will not be forced into it.


----------



## Nigel

voodoolamb said:


> Been there. Done that. Got the t shirt. It was a blast. We shocked the heck out of each other for funzies. My fiends are weird but I love them...Sure it hurt a bit, momentarily, but it was not emotionally scaring.
> 
> 
> 
> Or he could be a dog with a genetic predisposition for high prey drive that all the clickers and treats in the world will NOT be more rewarding then the release of chasing the cat.
> 
> It is awesome you were able to train your lab mix to deal with cats, however that was one dog and of a mix that is not generally found on the insane side of the prey drive spectrum. I'm a pit person. I've dealt with a LOT of animal aggression and prey drive in my dogs. One does not click and treat them away.
> 
> 
> 
> From my understanding Electroconvulsive therapy fell out of favor in the 1960s thanks to the rise in popularity of the first SSRIs which only came onto the scene in the later 1950s... not because it turned people into mindless zombies. If I am not mistaken... I do believe that ECT has undergone a bit of a resurgence since the 1980s as it is a treatment that offers the most immediate results and the only option available for medication resistant mental illnesses... Its a therapy offered by some of the most prestigious and well regarded medical associations in the world... like the Mayo clinic.
> 
> But it's a good analogy in a way... Public perceptions of ECT is that it is barbaric. Public perception of e collars is the same. Both things may have historically been inhumane but the modern incarnations of both are safe and in some cases the BEST options available.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you have the impression that e collar use is a "quick fix"? I personally have found it takes close to the same amount of time to train with an e collar as other methods. All depends on the dog. But there is still the luring, teaching, building up the 3Ds and proofing. Proofing is where e collar use really shines - and that is the LAST STEP in teaching a command. So how is it that e collars really make things faster?
> 
> Have you ever used an e collar before? You seem to be under the impression that everyone is out there zapping their dogs on full blast all of the time. Most people who I know who uses them have dogs that have a working stim level in the teens or lower 20s...
> 
> 
> 
> look at this nervous dog...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44km4-Ermfo
> 
> And our HORRIBLE bond...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGQNdlj3VLQ
> 
> 
> I have given him a couple of accidental and poorly timed corrections. Corrections that were too hard. Hes gotten accidental zaps with the e collar - even on high levels (I was trying to use the vibration and sound function to train other things) I will admit it. I am no expert dog trainer. I make mistakes. He bounced back and we moved on with our day. A sound dog will not buckle under normal e collar use.


Great post! and agree completely. I tested both my dogtra and educator collars on myself before using them on my dogs and my working level is only slightly higher than theirs, lol

Most of the ecollar naysayers need to research modern ecollar methods before being so quick to jump on the poopoo bandwagon. Most of their arguments are based on methods going back decades. There is no zap zap zap. Most users I know use low stim levels, which feels just like the "tens" unit I've had applied at the physical therapy office. To me it's more communication than punishment. I have to hide the collar when charging them up, if I'm spotted doing this both dogs get excited because to them it has a positive association. 

I've wanted to respond to some of the posts, but whenever I got the chance to catch up with this thread Cowboys girl has hit on every point I would have made, nice work!


----------



## Chip18

WIBackpacker said:


> A few years ago I threw a handful of car keys, full speed, at one of my dogs to stop her from ending up face-first in a porcupine.
> 
> Am I proud of it? No. Would I do it again? Yes.


LOL, that would be ... a "Throw Chain" or the modern day equivalent a "Bonker" ... great job though ... I would assume it worked. ! 

But ... it sounds like the wilderness ... is a fairly daunting place for dogs??? :










But I've learned stuff here, Skunks are bad, Porcupines are pandemic and Deer Roam in Herds! I have seen that last one in the woods actually but I had to drive about 25 miles to find them ... tress! It was a herd of at least thirty -five Deer! It was cool to see but I never thought about be having a dog on hand???

Oh yeah and least I forget ... "Bears" apparently make poor pets!


----------



## selzer

WIBackpacker said:


> Piggybacking on points above....
> 
> Thecowboysgirl and GypsyGhost could obviously "manage" the dogs they've described, without any collars at all, if they were kept at home locked up in a box of some sort. Big box, little box, indoor box, outdoor box, whatever.
> 
> I would argue that those dogs have/had a MUCH higher quality of life because tools enable(d) them to safely enjoy outings, exercise, training, travel.
> 
> Given the choice, I know what I would pick.
> 
> A few years ago I threw a handful of car keys, full speed, at one of my dogs to stop her from ending up face-first in a porcupine.
> 
> Am I proud of it? No. Would I do it again? Yes.
> 
> Would she have obeyed a verbal "LEAVE-IT"? Maybe. Probably. Was I going to test this out, miles from the nearest road and hours from the nearest town? No.
> 
> If she had been wearing an ecollar, would a stim correction have been more "humane" than a handful of metal thrown at her? Maybe. Does she have any lasting damage, fear of keys, fear of me? None, zero, zilch.
> 
> Would she be happier locked up safe at home while I camp in porcupine country without her for the rest of her life? I highly doubt it.
> 
> I just cannot look down on corrections or training equipment that allows dogs to have a more active and full life.


I've never looked down on corrections. My beef with "training equipment" is that no training is happening a lot of the time. The dog will wear that collar forever because it breeds dependence where training breeds independence. But whatever. I don't have a problem with people using equipment with dogs they can manage without the equipment. Cowboygirl talks about a dog that would kill livestock or pets without an e-collar. No, the dog was certainly manageable without an e-collar. It could have been kept on lead, or in a fenced area. The vast majority of dogs living in cities and villages do not roam freely in search of livestock or pets to eat. They are kept indoors, in fenced yards, and on lead. And they live that way just fine. A dog that will kill livestock cannot roam a farm, roam in in farm country at will. It would be killed either by the owner or by other farmers. But why should it have that kind of freedom anyway. It actually isn't good for dogs to spend a lot of time free on acreage. These are dogs that work WITH people, and a good number of them would be in trouble if they are giving free reign. 

Ok, if you have 50 acres or so, and you want your dog to accompany you on the farm, you will either get rid of a dog that kills other animals, or you will find a way to manage that behavior. Cowboygirl used an e-collar. And that worked for her. I would have used a leash, and kept the dog away from neighbor's pets and my own. Not a big deal, really. Not a reason to kill a dog. It does not mean the dog is not manageable without a collar. That statement came about the constant statements about small women with large dogs not being able to manage them without a prong collar. I call Baloney on that. If they TRULY cannot manage the dog without the collar they shouldn't have the dog at all. And how do they get the collar on the dog if they cannot manage the dog without the collar? Really? 

So the real question is, Is a dog truly better off being able to run around on an e-collar, or being taken many places the owner does not feel comfortable with them in, or being connected to the owner, or kept in safer areas until the owner feels more confident about handling the dog? I dunno. It must be nice to live on a farm with your dogs, all those city people are abusing theirs by keeping them under wraps. But we can say crap like that because we are defending prong collars. Oh, the dogs are so much better off being able to run around all over the place because of its e-collar. You just made probably 70 percent of GSD owners feel bad for having their dogs living in a city where they cannot let them run all over the place, and their poor animals are confined to their postage-stamp back yards (if fenced), and the leash. 

Ah well. The reality of it is, that dogs actually are pretty capable of adjusting to whatever we can give them, spare space, spare time, spare food, etc. They can sleep outdoors or indoors, they can live with the run of the house or the kennel or the yard, or acreage. What's more is a lot of dogs are home-bodies. They are perfectly happy to be at home. They do not need to "go everywhere" with their owner. If your sister doesn't have dogs and doesn't want yours in her home when you come for dinner, leave the dog home, it's fine. But no, we must take offense at that and not talk to our sister because she does not welcome our dog. Insanity. Sometimes dog people go too far. 

If I do not trust a dog off leash, then I do not let them off leash. I do not shove a remote on him, and then zap him when I don't like what he is doing. You suggest my way is crueler, completely slapping the faces of all the city dwellers who must keep their dogs on lead all the time. But that's ok. This is getting redundant.


----------



## car2ner

I am lucky to live in an area where I do most of my week day walking in suburban sidewalk communities. When I see another dog coming I find it prudent to make sure we are on opposite side-walks. It has served me well so far. Do I mind my own business? No. I tend to offer a tidbit of training or managing advice. Either I explain why I corrected / redirected my dog or how they might do something a bit different with their dog. So far no on has called me a know-it-all snob (at least not to my face). One person was trying to get her dog to move along with her, but had a leash on the back hook of a harness so she was tugging the dog sideways. I pointed and mentioned, that is the problem with those harnesses. She asked me what I used and I said.....a ...........collar. It gives a clearer signal. 

I had to catch myself and not say prong collar. I wouldn't want someone to use one without realizing the why and how, etc. And my gal was only wearing her martingale this time, anyhow.


----------



## Dunkirk

A few years ago I threw a handful of car keys, full speed, at one of my dogs to stop her from ending up face-first in a porcupine. 

Am I proud of it? No. Would I do it again? Yes

A few years ago I ecollar stimmed my dog on maximum setting. I'd let him out without realizing there was a snake sunning itself in our suburban back yard. It happened to be one of the top 10 most toxic snake breeds in the world (yeah Australia!). It happened really fast, stimming him was the correct thing to do in the circumstances. I may not have been able to get my dog to the vet in time to save him, had he been bitten. I'm glad he happened to be wearing an ecollar that day.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Selzer says "But we are discussing prong collars, not an individual's use of one, which might be splitting hairs, but I defy anyone to hear me shaming any OP for using a prong collar."

I don't know how you can say this when you have repeated over and over that anybody who needs a prong collar on their dog ought not own the dog. How many people on this forum do you think read those posts?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> I've never looked down on corrections. My beef with "training equipment" is that no training is happening a lot of the time. The dog will wear that collar forever because it breeds dependence where training breeds independence. But whatever. I don't have a problem with people using equipment with dogs they can manage without the equipment. Cowboygirl talks about a dog that would kill livestock or pets without an e-collar. No, the dog was certainly manageable without an e-collar. It could have been kept on lead, or in a fenced area. The vast majority of dogs living in cities and villages do not roam freely in search of livestock or pets to eat. They are kept indoors, in fenced yards, and on lead. And they live that way just fine. A dog that will kill livestock cannot roam a farm, roam in in farm country at will. It would be killed either by the owner or by other farmers. But why should it have that kind of freedom anyway. It actually isn't good for dogs to spend a lot of time free on acreage. These are dogs that work WITH people, and a good number of them would be in trouble if they are giving free reign.
> 
> Ok, if you have 50 acres or so, and you want your dog to accompany you on the farm, you will either get rid of a dog that kills other animals, or you will find a way to manage that behavior. Cowboygirl used an e-collar. And that worked for her. I would have used a leash, and kept the dog away from neighbor's pets and my own. Not a big deal, really. Not a reason to kill a dog. It does not mean the dog is not manageable without a collar. That statement came about the constant statements about small women with large dogs not being able to manage them without a prong collar. I call Baloney on that. If they TRULY cannot manage the dog without the collar they shouldn't have the dog at all. And how do they get the collar on the dog if they cannot manage the dog without the collar? Really?
> 
> So the real question is, Is a dog truly better off being able to run around on an e-collar, or being taken many places the owner does not feel comfortable with them in, or being connected to the owner, or kept in safer areas until the owner feels more confident about handling the dog? I dunno. It must be nice to live on a farm with your dogs, all those city people are abusing theirs by keeping them under wraps. But we can say crap like that because we are defending prong collars. Oh, the dogs are so much better off being able to run around all over the place because of its e-collar. You just made probably 70 percent of GSD owners feel bad for having their dogs living in a city where they cannot let them run all over the place, and their poor animals are confined to their postage-stamp back yards (if fenced), and the leash.
> 
> Ah well. The reality of it is, that dogs actually are pretty capable of adjusting to whatever we can give them, spare space, spare time, spare food, etc. They can sleep outdoors or indoors, they can live with the run of the house or the kennel or the yard, or acreage. What's more is a lot of dogs are home-bodies. They are perfectly happy to be at home. They do not need to "go everywhere" with their owner. If your sister doesn't have dogs and doesn't want yours in her home when you come for dinner, leave the dog home, it's fine. But no, we must take offense at that and not talk to our sister because she does not welcome our dog. Insanity. Sometimes dog people go too far.
> 
> If I do not trust a dog off leash, then I do not let them off leash. I do not shove a remote on him, and then zap him when I don't like what he is doing. You suggest my way is crueler, completely slapping the faces of all the city dwellers who must keep their dogs on lead all the time. But that's ok. This is getting redundant.


Couple things I wish to clarify. The killer dog I described would not have been neutralized by staying on a leash. He would have had to have literally been confined to a privacy fenced yard and that's it. While walking this dog we were accosted on multiple occasions by loose toy breeds any of whom he would have happily and instantaneously killed. Nanoseconds counted with this dog.

There was loose livestock ALL the time. It's wasn't a matter of saying "I'll keep him on a leash and away from livestock", because on a regular walk my neighbor's sheep might have escaped and be trotting down the road. Or my neighbor's sheep are in my driveway. Or my goats have escaped. There were usually chickens and toy breed dogs in the road. I would not at all feel confident that a leash only would have solved the problem to my satisfaction. Nor did I really feel like fences always solved the problem to my satisfaction, case in point two baby goats who found some hole somewhere to crawl out of and pop him in that dog's face. He did nothing, because of our training. There should have been a fence separating them, but livestock get out.
.

So let me clarify that I did not intend to say the keeping a dog on a leash or in a fenced yard 100% of the time is cruel. I don't think it is cruel. I'll be honest and say it isn't my idea of how to have and enjoy a dog...but I did live in two apartments with GSDs and though I hiked them both offleash regularly, the rest of the time was apartment or leash for the most part. 

For the dog to have not been a hazard to other people's (or my own) livestock or small pets, he would really have needed to stay inside a yard and not be walked. As you are fond of saying, leashes get dropped. And I don't think I said it was cruel, I think what I said was that I feel that e collar training him so he could have a life was more humane than not letting him out of a yard for the rest of his life.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

What I actually said is this, and I cut and pasted:

"unless he lived out his life confined to a 6' privacy fence yard or kennel. And in order to get him that he would have had to be adoptable, which he wasn't. I suppose I could have built him a privacy fence yard and confined him to that for the rest of his life instead of using the e collar but I believed and still do that what I did was way more humane."

This statement was not meant to imply anything about any person who lives in town and walks their dog on a leash. This statement was meant to say that I felt that this dog should have been confined 100% of the time because of where we lived if I had not done the training I did with him, which was successful.

I definitely didn't say people who live in towns or cities and leash walk their dogs are abusing them.

Selzer says 

"You suggest my way is crueler, completely slapping the faces of all the city dwellers who must keep their dogs on lead all the time. But that's ok. This is getting redundant."

If you keep your dogs confined to kennels and they do not get out for daily exercise and enrichment then yes I do think my dogs are living a better life. Cruel? I'm not sure, I don't know enough about you and how your dogs live. I dont think I used the word cruel. I can say that I would not want any dog of mine to be confined to a kennel without daily exercise, training, and enrichment. And more than just a quick romp around the yard


----------



## selzer

Nigel said:


> Great post! and agree completely. I tested both my dogtra and educator collars on myself before using them on my dogs and my working level is only slightly higher than theirs, lol
> 
> Most of the ecollar naysayers need to research modern ecollar methods before being so quick to jump on the poopoo bandwagon. Most of their arguments are based on methods going back decades. There is no zap zap zap. Most users I know use low stim levels, which feels just like the "tens" unit I've had applied at the physical therapy office. To me it's more communication than punishment. I have to hide the collar when charging them up, if I'm spotted doing this both dogs get excited because to them it has a positive association.
> 
> I've wanted to respond to some of the posts, but whenever I got the chance to catch up with this thread Cowboys girl has hit on every point I would have made, nice work!


Well now, we nay-sayers have to go with what we see. I saw a pup of mine playing with its owner, the owner was filling water buckets in the yard, and talking to the dog, pretty much it was a game how the dog loved the hose etc, he was snapping at the water, and she was making a deal over, and the 5 year old dog was amping up, and loving the hose play, and caught her finger. 

Made it bleed. But it was all a game. There was absolutely no aggression in this. None. 

Doesn't matter. The man came out and grabbed the remote, set the dog up again with her, and then I heard the dog scream. He did it again. And again, and the dog screamed. His dog can be discerning. Whatever. The dog's a nice dog, and recovered just fine because he has a good temperament. If that was my dog, I would have kicked myself for playing such a dumb game with the dog, and went and got a band-aid. 

Another pup, around a year old, at the time, playing with a group of dogs. Her owner told her to come, and she did not, so then I saw her yelp. I looked at the woman, and she had the remote in her hand. I asked her, did you just zap her? She said, "Yes, I told her twice to come and she didn't." Well I was right next to the woman and I only heard her say it one time. And the puppy was a puppy in the middle of a bunch of big dogs playing, and I know that is not what she does every day. Why give a youngster a command they have little likelihood of obeying? So you can zap the dog when she is in a pile of dogs. How to make a dog, dog reactive. How to start a dog fight. Whatever. 

This is pure punishment. Both of these usages, both within the last year. 

So yeah poo poo. My guess is a lot of people crank that thing up and use it as punishment. Dogs do not like to be hit with electricity. So it is just the old compulsion training with a remote collar. Teaching the dog to avoid the correction by avoiding behaviors or obeying behaviors. Nothing new here folks. 

I don't have a problem with correcting a dog, but for the majority of training we should set the dog up to succeed and praise him for doing so, building confidence in the dog and the handler, and it's fun. And still so many people are setting dogs up to fail and then walluping them for failing. That'll teach him. And, it does. What a pity. People will not let go of this model, calling it proofing, or whatever, because it does work. I guess I prefer working with my dogs by motivating them to work with me because it's great to make Susie happy. I've gone that other way. In those days it was chokers, and yank and crank. Honestly, how I train today is a lot quicker, and a lot more reliable, and when it is learned, it is learned. You do not have to practice with the dog, it's like riding a bicycle. You can pick up that bike years later and it is still in there, all that training. I literally took a dog into the ring four years after the last training session and she took first place. I moved her up the same day to excellent and she took first place in excellent too. The night before I did a couple of run-throughs with her --nothing else for 4 years. She was about 7 then, a month later she hurt a tendon. So I retired her. About 2 or 3 years later I took her to an outdoor obedience class and we ran her through novice obedience. She was excellent, and the trainer said I should bring her out of retirement. But why? She was almost 10 then. 

I don't know if I have ever had to correct that bitch. We have a thing. She knows what I want and gives it to me. Smart dog. Good dog. Biddable, true. Glad Arwen taught me a better way to train dogs, or I might never have that relationship with Heidi. Or Babs. Or Joy. Or Karma. Or Quinnie. Now some of the others are different kinds of dogs. I am still figuring out Lassie, but I will never get there with a prong or e-collar with her, never. We've made leaps and bounds in the past two months. 

If I did not see people misdiagnose dogs as hard and stubborn, that were soft and shutting down, maybe I could accept some of this. If I did not see the abuses first hand, then maybe I wouldn't be a nay-sayer. 

I have seen an e-collar used properly, and a prong. The dog is sound and strong, and his owners are experienced, and I think doing it properly. The pup has come a long way, but then, he is 3-4 months older, he should have come a long way by now, and maybe he would have anyway. And maybe, in the situation he is in, without the tools, he would be out of control, maybe. The dog is very independent, which might make motivation more difficult. Perhaps training behaviors and backing it up when necessary with the collar is the best way for these owners to train this dog. The guy warns the dog. He tells him, and if the dog is still playing (not obeying), he says ONE, then he will say TWO and before TWO is all the way out, the dog is coming to him. Complying. 

At the end of the day, I am not a fan of the collars. I don't use them because I can't use them in the ring, and there is no point in getting dependent on something that I will then have to wean off of, and, I think my dogs learn better my way. For them and me it is quicker and more reliable. They are not reactive or dog aggressive or prey-driven and usually they want to work with me. If I can just communicate what I want them to do, they are perfectly happy to do it, for whatever praise I might give them, even just a yes, or good girl. 

I don't care about protection work. Not a priority. In fact, I find a well-trained dog is a far better deterrent than a bouncy, crazy, dog sporting a tough-boy collar. And all I need is a deterrent. I know my dogs are capable of protection training because some of the pups are doing it. I am not raising them for that end though.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

"The man came out and grabbed the remote, set the dog up again with her, and then I heard the dog scream. He did it again. And again, and the dog screamed. His dog can be discerning. Whatever. The dog's a nice dog, and recovered just fine because he has a good temperament. If that was my dog, I would have kicked myself for playing such a dumb game with the dog, and went and got a band-aid. 

Another pup, around a year old, at the time, playing with a group of dogs. Her owner told her to come, and she did not, so then I saw her yelp. I looked at the woman, and she had the remote in her hand. I asked her, did you just zap her? She said, "Yes, I told her twice to come and she didn't." Well I was right next to the woman and I only heard her say it one time. And the puppy was a puppy in the middle of a bunch of big dogs playing, and I know that is not what she does every day. Why give a youngster a command they have little likelihood of obeying? So you can zap the dog when she is in a pile of dogs. How to make a dog, dog reactive. How to start a dog fight. Whatever. 

This is pure punishment. Both of these usages, both within the last year. 

So yeah poo poo. My guess is a lot of people crank that thing up and use it as punishment. Dogs do not like to be hit with electricity. So it is just the old compulsion training with a remote collar. Teaching the dog to avoid the correction by avoiding behaviors or obeying behaviors. Nothing new here folks. 

I don't have a problem with correcting a dog, but for the majority of training we should set the dog up to succeed and praise him for doing so, building confidence in the dog and the handler, and it's fun. And still so many people are setting dogs up to fail and then walluping them for failing. That'll teach him. And, it does. What a pity. People will not let go of this model, calling it proofing, or whatever, because it does work."

______
What you describe here is a pity, and I would have a hard time not interfering if I saw this going on. I almost certainly would try to stop the people from using an e collar like this.

But this does NOT represent proper e collar training. There are an awful lot of people doing it a heck of a lot better and more humanely than this. This reminds me of the stuff the PP people used to say to me


----------



## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Selzer says "But we are discussing prong collars, not an individual's use of one, which might be splitting hairs, but I defy anyone to hear me shaming any OP for using a prong collar."
> 
> I don't know how you can say this when you have repeated over and over that anybody who needs a prong collar on their dog ought not own the dog. How many people on this forum do you think read those posts?


Well, when people are so defensive that they deliberately mis-interpret what I say. It isn't splitting hairs. It is the difference between being able to control the dog without a collar and not. It has nothing to do with whether you use one some of the time for training. It has to do with not having the force of character or brute strength to control the dog in a pinch (not in a collar). If you cannot control the dog in any situation, then you should not own that dog. It doesn't have to be pretty. 

Not being able to manage the dog, or control the dog if you prefer, means just that, you own a dog that you are afraid of, and if it gets the neighbor's kid or dog, you will not be able to prevent a tragedy unless it has that collar on. 

I don't think people should own dogs they are afraid of, whether that fear is for bodily harm for themselves, their family or for other people. Pets and livestock is another story. Dogs are predators, and we need to train them to live with people. People have pets. But I don't like the idea of dogs being put down because they are animal aggressive, though I know many are, and many people do not feel they can manage this. I would keep a dog separated from my other pets and keep them on-lead rather than put such a dog down. (In my neighborhood, the dog on leash is not liable. I would pick places the dog would be unlikely to meet roaming animals. Farmers do keep their sheep and other livestock contained here, so not a problem here. It would not be difficult for me to keep the dog you describe where I live. And, no, I would not have to keep the dog at home either. The dog could be taken for walks in town or to the bike path, or to parks and such.)


----------



## Chip18

Dunkirk said:


> A few years ago I threw a handful of car keys, full speed, at one of my dogs to stop her from ending up face-first in a porcupine.
> 
> Am I proud of it? No. Would I do it again? Yes


 Aww ... yet another improvised throw chain correction ... good job! But wait what ... another "Porccupine situition???" In Australia are they buying plan tickets ... man my dogs lead a sheltered life! 




Dunkirk said:


> A few years ago I ecollar stimmed my dog on maximum setting. I'd let him out without realizing there was a snake sunning itself in our suburban back yard. It happened to be one of the top 10 most toxic snake breeds in the world (yeah Australia!). It happened really fast, stimming him was the correct thing to do in the circumstances. I may not have been able to get my dog to the vet in time to save him, had he been bitten. I'm glad he happened to be wearing an ecollar that day.


 Yes ... you have a lot of creepy, crawling dog and people killing creatures down there! We have do have Rattle Snakes out here and annual "Rattle Snake" avoidance classes ... trained with a caged de-fanged Rattle Snake and high E-Collar corrections. Rocky does not need classes however ... if we go into Snake Country ... he is usually off leash and he will stop and let me take point! That works out fine for him.


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## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "The man came out and grabbed the remote, set the dog up again with her, and then I heard the dog scream. He did it again. And again, and the dog screamed. His dog can be discerning. Whatever. The dog's a nice dog, and recovered just fine because he has a good temperament. If that was my dog, I would have kicked myself for playing such a dumb game with the dog, and went and got a band-aid.
> 
> Another pup, around a year old, at the time, playing with a group of dogs. Her owner told her to come, and she did not, so then I saw her yelp. I looked at the woman, and she had the remote in her hand. I asked her, did you just zap her? She said, "Yes, I told her twice to come and she didn't." Well I was right next to the woman and I only heard her say it one time. And the puppy was a puppy in the middle of a bunch of big dogs playing, and I know that is not what she does every day. Why give a youngster a command they have little likelihood of obeying? So you can zap the dog when she is in a pile of dogs. How to make a dog, dog reactive. How to start a dog fight. Whatever.
> 
> This is pure punishment. Both of these usages, both within the last year.
> 
> So yeah poo poo. My guess is a lot of people crank that thing up and use it as punishment. Dogs do not like to be hit with electricity. So it is just the old compulsion training with a remote collar. Teaching the dog to avoid the correction by avoiding behaviors or obeying behaviors. Nothing new here folks.
> 
> I don't have a problem with correcting a dog, but for the majority of training we should set the dog up to succeed and praise him for doing so, building confidence in the dog and the handler, and it's fun. And still so many people are setting dogs up to fail and then walluping them for failing. That'll teach him. And, it does. What a pity. People will not let go of this model, calling it proofing, or whatever, because it does work."
> 
> ______
> What you describe here is a pity, and I would have a hard time not interfering if I saw this going on. I almost certainly would try to stop the people from using an e collar like this.
> 
> But this does NOT represent proper e collar training. There are an awful lot of people doing it a heck of a lot better and more humanely than this. This reminds me of the stuff the PP people used to say to me


Sounds like more people than just me see some questionable usage of these collars. 

Trust me, that I do not believe in purely positive training. I think it might work if you have the right trainer and that trainer is very disciplined in themselves. But I believe that purely positive training is like trying to do sign language with one hand tied behind your back. Training is about building a bond and communicating what you want, and the other half of the equation's response to that communication when successful builds trust and, the first half of the equation provides communication that the second half's response was correct. You want the majority of that communication to be positive, but without negative markers, you are tying your hand behind your back. They can be physical or verbal, but they will make the entirety of communication with the dog more clear and thus more effective. So purely positive -- where you don't even tell your dog "No" well, I don't believe it exists, but if it does, I think it would be counter-productive.

Dogs do not like being zapped, and they will avoid that which zaps. They can't get away from the collar. I used to have a solar powered electric fence, that I ran along my yard fence to keep dogs from trying to dig under or climb over. The dogs would run to the fence, put on the breaks, look where that wire was, and then continue to bark or whatever at the gate, never touching the wire. That in my opinion was fair. They could see it and avoid it. And they did.

Well, I was hosting my brother's bitch, who had already gotten into a knock down, drag out, ER visits for everyone involved fight with my 2 year old. She was 3. His roommate/partner/whatever died, and my folks said he could move back in with them, but not with the dog. I took the dog and kept her for 2 or 3 years before he got his shtuff in gear and bought a house and took her back. 

Anyway, after all of our visits to the ER, she went through my back window three times. When closed. Twice to go out, once to come in. I had to keep the bitches separated, and I was building proper kennels but for the short term, I needed some place to put her during the day. In my house was not an option as she went through windows. 

So, I got a cable and ran it between the front door and the tree out front. I put a dog house out there and a bucket of water, and I went to work. As I turned the corner it began to sprinkle. 

Holy Moses! When I got home my front yard looked like a mud pit. She was covered from snout to tail in caked mud. I could just see myself in front of my trailer telling the animal police on animal planet that, "Really, all this happened in one day." 

Well, that didn't work. I moved the cable out back behind the shed where the ground seemed dryer, and the dog house. And it ran alongside the back fence. I spent all evening getting it ready for her. And I put her on it the next morning, and went off to work. 

I came home and I didn't see her. I called to her, she would not come out of the dog house. What was going on??? I yelled at her and ordered her out of the dog house. She was scared and came out. I looked at her, I couldn't figure it and then I saw. The darn cable was somehow connected to that inner solar powered electric fence, safe for dogs, sheep, cows, etc. Well, it was safe, but the dog certainly did not want to be zapped by it. I felt so bad. I fixed it and she was fine, not worried about being chained or anything like that. And that worked until I got the kennels finished.


----------



## Nigel

selzer said:


> Well now, we nay-sayers have to go with what we see. I saw a pup of mine playing with its owner, the owner was filling water buckets in the yard, and talking to the dog, pretty much it was a game how the dog loved the hose etc, he was snapping at the water, and she was making a deal over, and the 5 year old dog was amping up, and loving the hose play, and caught her finger.
> 
> Made it bleed. But it was all a game. There was absolutely no aggression in this. None.
> 
> Doesn't matter. The man came out and grabbed the remote, set the dog up again with her, and then I heard the dog scream. He did it again. And again, and the dog screamed. His dog can be discerning. Whatever. The dog's a nice dog, and recovered just fine because he has a good temperament. If that was my dog, I would have kicked myself for playing such a dumb game with the dog, and went and got a band-aid.
> 
> Another pup, around a year old, at the time, playing with a group of dogs. Her owner told her to come, and she did not, so then I saw her yelp. I looked at the woman, and she had the remote in her hand. I asked her, did you just zap her? She said, "Yes, I told her twice to come and she didn't." Well I was right next to the woman and I only heard her say it one time. And the puppy was a puppy in the middle of a bunch of big dogs playing, and I know that is not what she does every day. Why give a youngster a command they have little likelihood of obeying? So you can zap the dog when she is in a pile of dogs. How to make a dog, dog reactive. How to start a dog fight. Whatever.
> 
> This is pure punishment. Both of these usages, both within the last year.
> 
> So yeah poo poo. My guess is a lot of people crank that thing up and use it as punishment. Dogs do not like to be hit with electricity. So it is just the old compulsion training with a remote collar. Teaching the dog to avoid the correction by avoiding behaviors or obeying behaviors. Nothing new here folks.
> 
> I don't have a problem with correcting a dog, but for the majority of training we should set the dog up to succeed and praise him for doing so, building confidence in the dog and the handler, and it's fun. And still so many people are setting dogs up to fail and then walluping them for failing. That'll teach him. And, it does. What a pity. People will not let go of this model, calling it proofing, or whatever, because it does work. I guess I prefer working with my dogs by motivating them to work with me because it's great to make Susie happy. I've gone that other way. In those days it was chokers, and yank and crank. Honestly, how I train today is a lot quicker, and a lot more reliable, and when it is learned, it is learned. You do not have to practice with the dog, it's like riding a bicycle. You can pick up that bike years later and it is still in there, all that training. I literally took a dog into the ring four years after the last training session and she took first place. I moved her up the same day to excellent and she took first place in excellent too. The night before I did a couple of run-throughs with her --nothing else for 4 years. She was about 7 then, a month later she hurt a tendon. So I retired her. About 2 or 3 years later I took her to an outdoor obedience class and we ran her through novice obedience. She was excellent, and the trainer said I should bring her out of retirement. But why? She was almost 10 then.
> 
> I don't know if I have ever had to correct that bitch. We have a thing. She knows what I want and gives it to me. Smart dog. Good dog. Biddable, true. Glad Arwen taught me a better way to train dogs, or I might never have that relationship with Heidi. Or Babs. Or Joy. Or Karma. Or Quinnie. Now some of the others are different kinds of dogs. I am still figuring out Lassie, but I will never get there with a prong or e-collar with her, never. We've made leaps and bounds in the past two months.
> 
> If I did not see people misdiagnose dogs as hard and stubborn, that were soft and shutting down, maybe I could accept some of this. If I did not see the abuses first hand, then maybe I wouldn't be a nay-sayer.
> 
> I have seen an e-collar used properly, and a prong. The dog is sound and strong, and his owners are experienced, and I think doing it properly. The pup has come a long way, but then, he is 3-4 months older, he should have come a long way by now, and maybe he would have anyway. And maybe, in the situation he is in, without the tools, he would be out of control, maybe. The dog is very independent, which might make motivation more difficult. Perhaps training behaviors and backing it up when necessary with the collar is the best way for these owners to train this dog. The guy warns the dog. He tells him, and if the dog is still playing (not obeying), he says ONE, then he will say TWO and before TWO is all the way out, the dog is coming to him. Complying.
> 
> At the end of the day, I am not a fan of the collars. I don't use them because I can't use them in the ring, and there is no point in getting dependent on something that I will then have to wean off of, and, I think my dogs learn better my way. For them and me it is quicker and more reliable. They are not reactive or dog aggressive or prey-driven and usually they want to work with me. If I can just communicate what I want them to do, they are perfectly happy to do it, for whatever praise I might give them, even just a yes, or good girl.
> 
> I don't care about protection work. Not a priority. In fact, I find a well-trained dog is a far better deterrent than a bouncy, crazy, dog sporting a tough-boy collar. And all I need is a deterrent. I know my dogs are capable of protection training because some of the pups are doing it. I am not raising them for that end though.


Neither of these examples has anything to do with the training I was referring to. You could replace the ecollar from those situations with a leash, flat collar or harness and most likely those dogs would still receive some form of heavy handed response from their owners. Ignorance is the problem, not the tool.


----------



## Steve Strom

Sometimes, there's only one reply.


----------



## thegooseman90

I have yet to see a poster here suggest that anyone should take an e collar or a prong and light the dog up for random frivolous stuff. And I have yet to see anyone bragging about how they yank the piss out of the pup at the end of the prong for no good reason, or even at all. So selzer, I think at this point you're just arguing to argue. You even say yourself you've seen both used correctly and you've seen both tools abused. There's a time and place for them even if you don't ever find a use for them. 

One example I wanted to touch on was when you suggested using a leash or fence to control the dogs from killing livestock. Now this I have first hand experience with and an e collar was my tool of choice. At the time I was using my dogs to hunt with. And more than one of the places we hunted was a farm (hogs love easy food). So needless to say a dog that went after live stock was a no-no, and so was a leashed dog (except the catch dog). The e collar worked and I didn't have to sit there and lay on the correction at max setting forever. They get the idea pretty quick. Not to brag or anything but my dogs lived pretty well and I don't think they'd be better off to rehome them in search of a hunting dog who wouldn't chase livestock. Point being there's nothing wrong with either tool in the right hands and the right situation. 

TL,DR - no one here is using the correction collars in the manner you've described


----------



## selzer

thegooseman90 said:


> I have yet to see a poster here suggest that anyone should take an e collar or a prong and light the dog up for random frivolous stuff. And I have yet to see anyone bragging about how they yank the piss out of the pup at the end of the prong for no good reason, or even at all. So selzer, I think at this point you're just arguing to argue. You even say yourself you've seen both used correctly and you've seen both tools abused. There's a time and place for them even if you don't ever find a use for them.
> 
> One example I wanted to touch on was when you suggested using a leash or fence to control the dogs from killing livestock. Now this I have first hand experience with and an e collar was my tool of choice. At the time I was using my dogs to hunt with. And more than one of the places we hunted was a farm (hogs love easy food). So needless to say a dog that went after live stock was a no-no, and so was a leashed dog (except the catch dog). The e collar worked and I didn't have to sit there and lay on the correction at max setting forever. They get the idea pretty quick. Not to brag or anything but my dogs lived pretty well and I don't think they'd be better off to rehome them in search of a hunting dog who wouldn't chase livestock. Point being there's nothing wrong with either tool in the right hands and the right situation.
> 
> TL,DR - *no one here is using the correction collars in the manner you've described*


You don't know this.


----------



## thegooseman90

Fair enough. I'll reword that. No one here is claiming that they do those things.


----------



## selzer

thegooseman90 said:


> Fair enough. I'll reword that. No one here is claiming that they do those things.


Already we have one person saying they use them from 3 months to 6 months. Most people like to wait until six months to use the collars. It depends on the dog, and I wouldn't get itchy about 5 months, but on a 3 month old puppy. Whatever. You'd be surprised what people actually do.


----------



## thegooseman90

I wouldn't be surprised. I've seen it myself - much worse than a prong or ecollar. But that's either here nor there. I could understand your arguments if someone were to say hey I take this collar and snatch the he!! outta my 3 month old pup because he won't walk nice. But I haven't seen anyone here say that. I've seen people say their type of dog requires it in the situations they use them in - such as slamdunc. Or in thecowboysgirl's case she used it properly to give the dog a better life than he'd have otherwise. I don't see the qualm with it in those situations. And I say you're arguing just to argue the point because you say oh but I've seen this or that happen to x puppy for y reason and it's completely unrelated to what the other posters have said.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Some of the best learning I have done with dogs is when my previous ability or previously held notions of what was acceptable failed, and I had to scrap it and try something totally new.

For me, that has happened both when I had to learn to use new tools that I was previously unwilling to use (prongs and e collars), and ALSO in situations where prongs, e collars AND food would not work, or would cause more harm than good and I had to learn to get the outcome that I wanted without any tool at all other than basically myself.

All of this contributes to my experience that I want to keep an open mind, and I don't want to make blanket statements about groups of dogs or people that I have not met.

This reminds me of the debate some months ago that started off about KMODT and Don Sullivan...and I feel like I have ironically been on slightly contradictory sides of both debate but the bottom line I think is still that issue of making blanket statements applying to groups of dogs and people I have not met or worked with. If I recall, that time my position started off being that I don't think it's right to begin training with aversives on puppies ... on which I think even Selzer and I agree....and there is a blanket statement I am making...

but hey, I haven't met all the puppies in the world or even most of them, and there WAS a puppy in my boy's puppy class who needed a correction or two, he was absolutely a problem waiting to happen and i believe would not have been phased negatively in the least, he was a tenacious little bugger. For the rest of the class, including my pup, *I think* prongs or corrections would not have been fair or right.


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## Casto

selzer said:


> Already we have one person saying they use them from 3 months to 6 months. Most people like to wait until six months to use the collars. It depends on the dog, and I wouldn't get itchy about 5 months, but on a 3 month old puppy. Whatever. You'd be surprised what people actually do.


You are referring to me and you have no Idea how I use a prong. Plus your big hooraah is something like if a person cant control their dog without a prong they shouldnt have it. Jupiter hasn't worn a prong in over 10 months and he is 15 months old. I guarentee he is better for it. Also, I was't posting to you, I was posting to OP, but I was reading your comments with an open mind and trying to see it from your point of view and I see your conviction. I appreciate you standing your ground on something you believe in. i respect that.

but, as a pet ( i dont do PP or other sports yet) I would put Jupiter against any dog any time. I cant imagine many dogs getting better exercise than he does. I cant imagine many dogs being TRUSTED OFF LEASH like he is. With that being said using me as an example for your case will be counter intuitive for you. 

p.s. I understand why it seems harsh on a 3-6 month old and why you would mention me in your comment. That time is spent proofing what he already knows. Just basic obedience, come and down stay being most important to his safety. The more ways you learn something the better you may be at it.


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## lhczth

Thecowboysgirl said:


> U
> And it doesn't really matter at the end of the day either, because by this logic I shouldn't have had my old male who died last year. When my reward only training failed with him, and I realized how dangerous he was, I threw out my old ideas and learned how to use an e collar. Because I did that, he did not kill my livestock or pets or anyone else's. What other options did he have? We were his 6th or 7th home by the third year of his life and he was quite unadoptable for a few different reasons. If we had surrendered him anywhere and told the truth about him, he would have been euthanized. Instead he got to live until the not ripe enough age of 10 when cancer took him and he died in mine and my husband's arms.
> 
> ...


Sad thing is, there are people who would have said he would have been better off dead than to use an E-collar. 

There are people out there that make a good living fixing the problems, saving the dogs, created by the closed minded, the sanctimonious, the "I will never use adversives" crowd. Trainers who fix the dogs these people would kill or subject to home after home or a life of total confinement. Arguing with the closed minded and the sanctimonious is a waste of time.


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## Steve Strom

I put a prong on very young. Post 256 sums up my answer to those in the bubble of sanctimony (credit Slam and Lisa) . People want to look at it as the big hammer, the final option, all that is their perception. Its the dogs perception that matters. I treat it like any other piece of training and show them what it is when they're young to help their perception for later. Its not even a correction, its just like any collar and leash at that point.


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## car2ner

Nigel said:


> Neither of these examples has anything to do with the training I was referring to. You could replace the ecollar from those situations with a leash, flat collar or harness and most likely those dogs would still receive some form of heavy handed response from their owners. Ignorance is the problem, not the tool.


And this is why we have people who don't mind their own business. 

There are kind soft hearted people who try to correct our training techniques for the good of the dog. But they don't know the dog or the technique we might be using. Or we (because most of us on these forums take the time to try and learn the best techniques..that is one reason we are here) try and tell the clueless JQP that what they are doing is in ineffective most of the time and down right hurtful some of the time. 

Yes, it is hard to say nothing because we all want the best for the dogs.


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## newlie

Any piece of equipment can be misused because unfortunately, the idiots will always be with us. There are people who put a flat collar on a puppy and never take it off so that by the time the dog I grown grown, it is embedded in their neck and has to be surgically removed.


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## Hineni7

Personally, I can see Selzer's point...up to a point. I believe people need to use as little as possible to get the maximum results, BUT, use as much as necessary in order to use as little as possible. Death by a thousand cuts is more torturous then a quick decapitation. Gruesome yes, but my point is, not using the correct tools can cause as much or more harm then using the correct 'ugly' tool quickly, efficiently, and when necessary to NOT have to use the tool most of the time.

I agree that prongs and ecollars should not be 'everyday' 'every moment' wear, all the time. Training should ultimately reduce the need for and usage of such tools....ideally.

I do not agree that if you need to use the tool, be it because you got a dog that was over your skill level and need to use it until you learn how to control dog - that you should not own a dog. Completely judgmental and the type of attitude that causes so many threads on this site. Just because one sees something happen once, even twice, does not mean that is the norm. It is a snapshot of someone's life, possibly at the worst possible moment for someone with a preconceived idea to see. People are always at different stages in life, knowledge, abilities, attitudes, and learning experiences. To deem someone unfit to own said dog because they don't know better, or don't have the skills (yet), or have made a mistake is a condemning attitude and mindset.

Law enforcement is a perfect example of why these tools are used intermittently and necessarily. Should LE not use the extremely well trained dog because they have to occassionally use the prong OR, in public settings use the prong or ecollar in order to make sure not accidental scenario ocur? YES! Just because the dog is great around people who aren't stupid does't mean stupid people won't do their stupid things in front of a high drive dog taught to react a certain way to perceived threats.. and I have seen people do idiotic stuff like taunt a police dog!!! Truly asking to have their faces chewed off.. They were not doing anything illegal but definitely doing stupid idiotic stuff. Dog with prong on was a wise choice as it helped dog keep cool in an environment that might normally mean "engage!"

As with life in general, there are no blanket statements that can ring true for all situations. Blanket statements can end up hurting people. Like someone who is using a prong collar right now because their 14mos 90lb gsd is too much for them. They know they need help and training but now, having been condemned to think they shouldn't own the dog, they will stop using what is currently controlling (not necessarily resolving) the problem which might lead to some serious complications...as an example..

Finally, I have had a high, high, high, high, prey drive gsd before.. And an ecollar on when around live stock made live stock safe. My dog had a wonderful life, enjoyed being with me and was quite well trained most of the time.. the time he suddenly caved and darted after my horses was a quick ultrasonic reminder that that was unacceptable... Should he not have had it on on those occassoins when a verbal reminder was not enough I would have had a vet bill.. Unless someone else wants to pay for my vet bill - I know my dog had a great life, enjoyed it thoroughly and while 85% of the time a verbal command was all that was needed to stop him (and we had a phenomenal relationship and bond) that 15% saved another animal the pain of what pride would have cost him/her.


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## WateryTart

lhczth said:


> Sad thing is, there are people who would have said he would have been better off dead than to use an E-collar.
> 
> There are people out there that make a good living fixing the problems, saving the dogs, created by the closed minded, the sanctimonious, the "I will never use adversives" crowd. Trainers who fix the dogs these people would kill or subject to home after home or a life of total confinement. Arguing with the closed minded and the sanctimonious is a waste of time.


Points very well taken, and when one cannot agree to disagree politely, it makes further discussion all the more futile. Rantings cannot be reasoned with.


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## GypsyGhost

selzer said:


> I've never looked down on corrections. My beef with "training equipment" is that no training is happening a lot of the time. The dog will wear that collar forever because it breeds dependence where training breeds independence. But whatever. I don't have a problem with people using equipment with dogs they can manage without the equipment. Cowboygirl talks about a dog that would kill livestock or pets without an e-collar. No, the dog was certainly manageable without an e-collar. It could have been kept on lead, or in a fenced area. The vast majority of dogs living in cities and villages do not roam freely in search of livestock or pets to eat. They are kept indoors, in fenced yards, and on lead. And they live that way just fine. A dog that will kill livestock cannot roam a farm, roam in in farm country at will. It would be killed either by the owner or by other farmers. But why should it have that kind of freedom anyway. It actually isn't good for dogs to spend a lot of time free on acreage. These are dogs that work WITH people, and a good number of them would be in trouble if they are giving free reign.
> 
> Ok, if you have 50 acres or so, and you want your dog to accompany you on the farm, you will either get rid of a dog that kills other animals, or you will find a way to manage that behavior. Cowboygirl used an e-collar. And that worked for her. I would have used a leash, and kept the dog away from neighbor's pets and my own. Not a big deal, really. Not a reason to kill a dog. It does not mean the dog is not manageable without a collar. That statement came about the constant statements about small women with large dogs not being able to manage them without a prong collar. I call Baloney on that. If they TRULY cannot manage the dog without the collar they shouldn't have the dog at all. And how do they get the collar on the dog if they cannot manage the dog without the collar? Really?
> 
> So the real question is, Is a dog truly better off being able to run around on an e-collar, or being taken many places the owner does not feel comfortable with them in, or being connected to the owner, or kept in safer areas until the owner feels more confident about handling the dog? I dunno. It must be nice to live on a farm with your dogs, all those city people are abusing theirs by keeping them under wraps. But we can say crap like that because we are defending prong collars. Oh, the dogs are so much better off being able to run around all over the place because of its e-collar. You just made probably 70 percent of GSD owners feel bad for having their dogs living in a city where they cannot let them run all over the place, and their poor animals are confined to their postage-stamp back yards (if fenced), and the leash.
> 
> Ah well. The reality of it is, that dogs actually are pretty capable of adjusting to whatever we can give them, spare space, spare time, spare food, etc. They can sleep outdoors or indoors, they can live with the run of the house or the kennel or the yard, or acreage. What's more is a lot of dogs are home-bodies. They are perfectly happy to be at home. They do not need to "go everywhere" with their owner. If your sister doesn't have dogs and doesn't want yours in her home when you come for dinner, leave the dog home, it's fine. But no, we must take offense at that and not talk to our sister because she does not welcome our dog. Insanity. Sometimes dog people go too far.
> 
> If I do not trust a dog off leash, then I do not let them off leash. I do not shove a remote on him, and then zap him when I don't like what he is doing. You suggest my way is crueler, completely slapping the faces of all the city dwellers who must keep their dogs on lead all the time. But that's ok. This is getting redundant.


I just wanted to say that I live in a city with a tiny backyard and three dogs and the post by WIBackpacker did not make me feel bad at all. I found it to be a great post about the importance of exercise and the efforts a lot of people go to to make sure their dogs have a fully enriched, active life. Nowhere in there did I see judgement for having a small yard and a working dog.


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## WateryTart

GypsyGhost said:


> I just wanted to say that I live in a city with a tiny backyard and three dogs and the post by WIBackpacker did not make me feel bad at all. I found it to be a great post about the importance of exercise and the efforts a lot of people go to to make sure their dogs have a fully enriched, active life. Nowhere in there did I see judgement for having a small yard and a working dog.


Same. I live on a very busy street smack in the middle of Minneapolis proper. I have a large, active dog. We are very purposeful about exercising her, although by now we have a well established rotation of methods and places that she enjoys best, so it's gotten very easy. I didn't take any offense at what was posted; it highlights the need to get creative and the need to use the avenues and the tools at your disposal, and to balance principle with sense. The latter is very often lacking.


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## voodoolamb

GypsyGhost said:


> I just wanted to say that I live in a city with a tiny backyard and three dogs and the post by WIBackpacker did not make me feel bad at all. I found it to be a great post about the importance of exercise and the efforts a lot of people go to to make sure their dogs have a fully enriched, active life. Nowhere in there did I see judgement for having a small yard and a working dog.


Agree. 

I currently live in a large city with my GSD and an itty bitty back yard. I also used to live in NYC on a 4th floor walk up studio with another active working breed (Collie). 

And I am going to say it. 

Under exercising a dog is faaaaaar more cruel than any of the training tools mentioned in this thread. Cruel and out right deadly to the dogs. Underexercised = poor health and poor behavior. Bad behavior gets dogs killed. 

Us city folk find ways to make things happen. I run my GSD in the green belt between a shopping center and residential neighborhood. We use empty sports fields and parking lots at night. I take him to the dog park in the pouring rain. Sometimes we get in the car and get out of the city. When I was in NYC - central park had off leash hours. I made nice with the super from the building down the block with the AWESOME courtyard. I brought him cookies and coffee and he let me play frisbee with the dog on their space. 

Its a matter of biology. Dogs, by nature, are trotters. Designed to cover much ground at that pace. In order to be healthy and happy they must be able to do this (as well as have occasional sprints) I am physically unable to move at a pace for my dog to sustain a trot on leash. So I let him off. IF I couldn't find a way to meet these physical needs... there are MANY MANY breeds of dogs with shorter legs, those cute little toy breeds, that CAN be properly exercised in a tiny postage sized back yard, house, and on leash alone.


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## Tennessee

kriver said:


> Hi,
> Try it on the highest level and to give it a fair test Make sure there is a new battery, it is fully charged and isn't an old worn out collar and have someone else zap you with your back turned to them for 10- 15 seconds slow count when you are not expecting it. As for the Mailinois how do you know it will be absolutely reliable with other cats? 1. if he doesn't have the E collar on 24/7 and even if he does the owner still has to have the remote in their hand ready to use. 2. He'll be smart enough to know if he is wearing the collar or not. 3. He could possibly be trained with clicker and treats to accept the cat as his cat and not see it as a threat depending on his background and in a very controlled training situation. Trained only one solid step by one solid step at a time and a lot of patience. Even then I still probably wouldn't trust him completely. 4.Improperly using an E collar contains an inherent risk of breaking the dog mentally and emotionally. Thus destroying him during the training process. 5.He could have had a very bad experience when very young and therefore sees every cat as a threat. The unknowns in that situation are countless in number. But with a rescue you might never know the background so your fighting that too. Or he could be jealous of the attention that is shared.
> I trained my shep/lab with eight different cats. They all got along never any problems between them. It took time and patience. Remember I qualified what I said earlier about the prong and the E collar as in the hands of someone unskilled in its use can be cruel. If the timing isn't just right you defeat its training purpose. If you zap too soon there is no association. Too late you might zap a wanted behavior by mistake. One or two mishaps like that and your training could be shot to blazes in other areas that were good before. The use of an E collar in extreme cases might be necessary to save the dog. But for the average person and situation in regular obedience it is over kill. Where do you go from there if the highest level of punishment training doesn't work and the dog has built up a tolerance to the E collar what then? In short your taking the risk that you might end up with a fried, made crazy, frantic, stressed out, scared, paranoid, nervous dog. This could be the result when the collar is used too much and/or incorrectly. This as far as I'm concerned, is in no uncertain terms a cruel thing to do to someone your suppose to love. It violates the trust they have in you big time. Once violated it is very difficult if not impossible to get back. Protection is a two way street you need to protect them from harm too. This includes potentially harmful trainers and training methods too.
> 
> In psych experiments for stress they would put mice in a large box with an electrified floor. They could section off parts of it and electrify the rest. The mice got so they were huddled in the corner and then they electrified that too but not enough to kill them. They died of the induced stress. This to me was a very cruel thing to do because there was no escape. There was literally nothing the mice could do.
> Up until the 1960's the psych hospitals used shock therapy to treat depression it did sort of. However, the process kind of fried the persons brain and there was a risk they would turned them into literal zombies not a good thing not to mention the extreme pain. But the patients weren't depressed any more. Only there was one small problem with the cure they didn't have a mind so they didn't care. Some people had it work successfully but it did change their personality not always for the better either.
> 
> The E collar induces a lot of stressors on the dog mentally, physically, and emotionally all in the name of quick and dirty training. If the dog can handle the stress that is one thing but what if they can't handle it? What do you do them? Is it really worth the risk to take that chance with someone you love if you don't have to? Remember,in dog training slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Your not in a sprint it is a marathon. But it is not a race who finishes first doesn't matter. It is how well each step of each training goal is accomplished with the dog still mentally, physically, and emotionally thriving that matters. The speed and time it take to get to each training goal is totally unimportant. There is no competition or time table that must be met. Each dog must learn at their own pace and in the best way for them to understand.
> 
> But on the other hand, if you use the lowest level of training that works 1st the dog is better off in the long run. You still accomplish the training goals and you still have other training options available to use. Some people get the E collar because they want quick and easy training not what is best for the dog in question. They don't want to put in the time and the effort it really takes to train an outstanding dog. They think dogs can learn by osmosis. Good training doesn't just happen reliably or over night. It takes a lot of work, time, and patience. If things go south with an untrained dog good luck trying to resolve a major problem even if yours is well trained. The owner needs to be prepared for the worse case situation and how to get their dog out of the situation unscathed if possible. It is about preparation not lack of confidence in training that I had a prong on my dog. I would rather have something available if needed and not use it. Than to not have it and not have the option of using it. But possibly needing it badly at a critical time.
> 
> A board /training situation is different but I too like someone else posted would want to take the time to establish a relationship with the dog 1st working on easy stuff. Take the time to learn, to know, understand the dog, and then work from there. The better you understand the dog the stronger your position will be to help them learn to resolve a problem. Understanding, knowledge, and the skills to use that knowledge becomes the power that will assist you in dealing with a problem area and Helping the dog over come it. The kennel trainer would more than likely use the E collar in training because it is quicker but not necessarily better for the dog. If it is cheaper in time they make more MONEY. They most likely would use the fastest method possible to get the result.
> 
> I wouldn't allow just any trainer to train my dog. I have to know and truly trust them, their training background, training style, and beliefs before they ever touched my dog I was at every class and did the training with the guidance of the trainer. We trained from the day I got him at 12wks to the day before he died. He was one day short of his 6th birthday.
> I have witnessed the harm a bad trainer can cause an innocent puppy all the while the owner thinks that what the trainer is doing has to be done that way. The owner is totally unaware of the irreparable harm being done to the puppy right in front of them.
> 
> Go to the training classes observe how they are taught how they interact with the student owners and the dogs. How do the dogs react to the trainer? What training methods are employed? Then pick a trainer go to every single class and socialize, socialize, socialize. This is especially important for a well balanced German Shepherd Dog.



1. It was a metaphor to prove the falseness of your statement and mindset. 

2. I don't need your advice on training rescue dogs or your life story. Your premise was love means never causing pain, it's a proveably false premise. Detailing different possibilities where my scenario might be wrong doesn't make your original premise correct. 

3. I've been shocked by an ecollar before at full blast, it hurt. I've never denied that at full blast they do in fact hurt. But even if I hadn't tested it out, it's an electric shock I was awake during science classes I know what electricity does to mammals. 

4. And again, since you conveniently side stepped it ecollars have levels on them for a reason & there are physiological differences between dogs & humans that reduce the felt effects. 

5. I don't use a prong or an ecollar, I spend hours every day bonding/playing/training my dog, and my family dogs growing up. They've all universally adored me and even the super hard headed mini schnauzers we've had that would ignore my parents or sister at times would listen to me when I gave commands. Most of that was the love and bond between us, part of that was that I don't take crap from or get ignored by a 4 legged mental 7 year old at best. 

6. I'll circle back to my original statement again in case you missed it. Prongs & ecollars can and often do bring discomfort and even pain especially in the beginning. I personally wouldn't use one unless I felt it were necessary to do so for that exact reason. I've got all the time in the world and my dog is very very pack motivated and even though she recovers extremely quickly she's not hard headed and is a little sensitive. So I feel for me, in my situation / my dog, I don't need it and it would in fact be counter productive. But I'm not going to get online and run my mouth about how they're cruel yada yada because I don't need them, if someone needs or want one and isn't abusing their dog it's none of my business. 

7. I just don't buy this new wave garbage that I personally lump into the same category: 
A) "pain isn't a useful tool in training (and that applies to humans or other mammals)." It should never be the main tool, only used sparingly, only used to the minimum amount to obtain the desired effect, and if it's not applied in a way that the trainee can understand cause & effect it's pointless. But pain is nature's way of letting you know to stop doing something stupid, do you touch hot stoves now? no you do not cause that hurts like heck. Pain taught you a lesson, simple as that.

B) "it's all how you raise them". You & selzer's general thesis that if you just bond with & train the dogs enough they'll always listen to you. It flies in the face of well established / understood reality, we breed dogs for certain traits, and all dogs just like all humans are slightly different. 

I honestly can't believe that I have to actually explain this, but I've met dogs just like people in my life with all different personalities motivations, toughness, independence etc etc. A KNPV Malinois is not a Golden retreiver is not a champion fighting Presa Canario or junk yard Fila Brasileiro is not a Borzoi etc etc. German Shepherds are such a widely breed dog that they run the gambit from Beagle's with pointy ears to KNPV champions, pretending like they're all the same and whatever your preferred method of training works for all of them no matter what is the height of arrogance and silliness. 

I wouldn't trust somebody's Borzoi around my cats unless they had some method of stopping that animal cold if it went for them, and no "your voice" doesn't count. The entire point of the breed is to chase animals and kill or capture them, they don't have to be trained to do this, it's innate, and love & a bond doesn't reliably remove that drive 100% of the time. Anymore than love & a bond stops people from cheating on their spouse 100% of the time. 

If you loved dogs the way you claim to, you'd recognize that some dogs need management & corrections more harsh than others for them to be socially acceptable and live long happy lives.


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## Thecowboysgirl

lhczth said:


> Sad thing is, there are people who would have said he would have been better off dead than to use an E-collar.
> 
> There are people out there that make a good living fixing the problems, saving the dogs, created by the closed minded, the sanctimonious, the "I will never use adversives" crowd. Trainers who fix the dogs these people would kill or subject to home after home or a life of total confinement. Arguing with the closed minded and the sanctimonious is a waste of time.


Yes, I had two close friends at the time I adopted him, both CPDTs and both basically the mindset that you stated above. It drove a wedge between us..not that they knew because I knew better than to say what that I was using e collars, but I could no longer talk freely about my dogs to them, and distanced myself more and more from them. It would have been a bad scene if they had found out what I was doing, and I didn't want the conflict in my life so I just kept it to myself.

I am not speculating about their positions either, because I had a conversation with the more closed minded of the two not that long ago, where she described to me in detail a dog she had been working with (as a trainer) and she had recommended euthanasia, and it wasn't that unusual of a thing for her to have to do, and I suspect this dog could have been helped. I don't know for sure because I never met the dog but just based on her description of what the issues were, I do believe the dog could have been helped with some decent balanced training.


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## Nigel

I agree with others about exercise, they need time to run. I live in a medium sized town with a small yard. We make the most of it when time is short playing fetch throwing the ball over the house and having them run from the front yard to the back. This allows them to run and not seeing it land means they have to hunt for it. 

We usually get time once week to visit the property or we can go north to visit the national forest where they can run off leash and collar free for that matter. On the weekends we go to the swimming hole, hike or camp giving them more time exercise. 

We have "down" days too with short training sessions and maybe a walk combined with training in the nearby industrial area for some mental exercise.


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## Chip18

I think ... the debate here has gotten all mixed up?

People that know how to use a given tool properly, got lumped in together with people that don't??? I don't think that people could argue with the fact that "Prong Collars and E-Collars" are easily the most abused tools of the ill informed??? 

Assuming that's a given??? The problem then becomes ... those of us that "specialize" in venues beside "Pet Dogs" explain to us why those of us that don't use, those tools can't do what what we do???

Speaking for myself ... that kinda sorta "tick us off!" If you are JQP ... you can use whatever tool you want, no problem use it properly stay in your own world and you get no problem from me. But the fact of the matter is "that depending on one's venue" you simply may not have that choice???

And telling us that don' do thtose dogs in those venues .can't do what we do ... kinda rubs us raw??? Speaking for myself, if one does not give a crap about "Shelter Dogs??" Then yes ... your free to use whatever tool you need. But if you want to help those dogs?? And E-Collars and Prongs are your only "Go to Options" ... good luck with that. Because "Yes" ... shelters will PTS, before allowing anyone to use those tools on one of there dogs. 

Most likely ... one can't walk a "Dog in Drive" on a flat leash and a regular collar??? I would not know, because I simply would not try??? However long it takes for a given dog to chill ... is how long it takes and I'm not on a time line, so I don't care about time. And nope in 15 years ... I can't say I've ever had some guy with a stick come charging at us on our daily walks, in our neighborhood??? But loose dog encounters ,yeah that happens all the time and I tell my dogs "Stay" off leash and all ... and that is what they do. Most likely they aren't that calm in those circumstances but they do as they have been trained. 

At any rate, I'd have no issues with a "Prong Collars" on a very young puppy ... in as much as under my watch ... my puppy would be not be banging against the collar anyway, so it really would not matter what he has on neck.


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## Hineni7

It is true that those that don't know better or how to use the tools gets lumped in with the those that do. Unfortunate but true. 

The other crux of the problem is for those that do use the tools properly, for whatever reason, or for however long, that to do so is unacceptable and they should not own the dog. I use neither on my two dogs, now. Ecollar for a short time and for reinforcement of the 'out' command. And I say this confidently, I have always had very very deep bonds with my dogs, but since doing SAR and having a working relationship where I have to trust them and them me, and we are often put in hairy situations.. Using an Ecollar has not hurt our bond... And if I still had to use it for those scenarios where absolute knowledge that obedie4will follow in scenarios few pet owners (no slam meant at all) will ever have, I know it won't hurt my bond with them. But it ticks me off to think that someone would think /assume I should not own my dogs because of I use it. Unbelievably presumptuous. 

I've stated my opinions, and they are just that, no power in them except to fuel my actions with my animals. For the high (and I do mean high) prey drive dog I had, I tried tieing him and he was more than miserable. He hated missing out on the fun and wanted to be with me. Having him wear an Ecollar to make sure all animals were safe all the time, allowed him to enjoy life and do what he loved safely. The few times it was needed as a reminder when prey drive kicked in over his tolerance /obedience /thought/containment, he was effectively reminded and pulled back to reality. To do otherwise would have kept him tied and miserable or the horses wearing gashes on their legs.


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## LuvShepherds

Chip18 said:


> I think ... the debate here has gotten all mixed up?
> 
> People that know how to use a given tool properly, got lumped in together with people that don't??? I don't think that people could argue with the fact that "Prong Collars and E-Collars" are easily the most abused tools of the ill informed???
> 
> .
> *
> At any rate, I'd have no issues with a "Prong Collars" on a very young puppy *... in as much as under my watch ... my puppy would be not be banging against the collar anyway, so it really would not matter what he has on neck.


And that is one reason why people hate prongs. You say they are easily abused and then give an example of how to abuse a dog with a prong. Young puppies should never be put in one. If your dog doesn't come up against the collar then you don't need it so why use it?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

GypsyGhost said:


> I just wanted to say that I live in a city with a tiny backyard and three dogs and the post by WIBackpacker did not make me feel bad at all.


I bet my tiny backyard out tinies your tiny backyard.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I bet my tiny backyard out tinies your tiny backyard.


Hahaha, we should measure!


----------



## Chip18

LuvShepherds said:


> And that is one reason why people hate prongs. You say they are easily abused and then give an example of how to abuse a dog with a prong. Young puppies should never be put in one. If your dog doesn't come up against the collar then you don't need it so why use it?


Uh ... "NO" I gave no example of "Prong Walking a puppy?? Nor did I give advise on how to do so?? I did say *"I don't try and walk a Dog in Drive" *... I wait for the dog to chill out, however long it takes ... I'm not in a hurry. 

And to answer your question ... because "I" could ...now. The only dog I screwed up was my Band Dawg ... I got the Prong thing wrong with him ... my bad. After that I said screw it "Regular Collar and Flat Leash it is. Aside from my Band Dawg ... all my assorted Boxer/(Breed that shall not be mentioned)mixes and Boxers could be walked on leash by anyone. I could walk my personnel dogs on a leash or a harness or a Prong and using an E-Collar (No batteries required) or ... apparently nothing at all??? That last one ... is a GSD thing ... my Boxers sigh ... it was me, not my dogs ... lot of emotional baggage there ... despite "proof" they could walk off leash ... I just never was willing to trust them??? Rocky my GSD ... was the only dog I trusted off leas in an urban environment. That made no sense ... in as much as I could stop my Boxer off leash, off a Bunny at distance in the open desert?? My first Boxer/Mix only wore his collar to humor me! If a situation came up ... he'd chuck that collar at will (Stewie was a Martingale collar type dog) but I'd sayk stay and that was that. But only my GSD gave me the sense that he was actually aware of his surroundings so he was my first "off leash Dog." It came as a surprise to me ... but I digress. 


My dogs were "now" boring job done there, so off to rescue I go! And first time out they hand me a SSL and a dog that pulls and say ... "Becareful he pulls." Course to be fair ... it was a Boxer. 


But ...no he did not ... for me ...it was about them not the dog. It was a few minuet conversation with the dog, after I properly fitted the SLL, most likely ... that was the first time that had happened and an observer would have seen nothing untoward happening! The dog stopped struggling after a short bit, sat and looked up at me. I said "OK" and off we go. For me he was a joy to walk. I handed him over at the end of the day and yep sure enough off he goes dragging his handler behind him??? I've done that ... time and time again with strays I round up and rescues I work with. 

I don't do IPO/LE/MWD/PPD's, I do rescue and in that world ... I'm good at the only tool they will allow you to use ... apparently. And the puppy thing ... well for the first couple of weeks the puppy just gets used to following you around leash free ... anyway. 

If that's done right then putting a "Prong Collar" on a too young puppy should not be any big deal??? If the puppy bangs against the prong ... then it would be ... well that didn't work??? But to be clear that is *"Not to be Considered as "Advise"* I only mentioned it because someone else said it here first. 

So if I'm that interested in giving it a shot ... I know who to contact because it seems like they have done it. Sometimes it's not about what you know ...it's about who you know.


----------



## Tennessee

I guess I'm left wondering in these sorts of situations what exactly people think they're actually accomplishing. 

A prong is an inert piece of metal, a tool, it has no will of its own, it can be used for good or for evil. Dirtbags can use it to jerk around their tough image dog of choice (not a dig at a certain breed to remain nameless, that's simply the current choice) or responsible people can use it as intended, to improve the lives of their dog. 

If your goal is to stop animal abuse, why are you blaming this inert piece of metal that has legitimate uses for the behavior of people? 

And why do you think using the government to enforce this, will magically stop a pattern of behavior by banning a certain tool? 

We can sit here and debate the logic of this back and forth for all eternity, but if one side has taken an illogical emotionally derived position it's pretty pointless. 

I'm not really sure who I'm trying to convince at this point, I guess that was just a long way of saying I need to bow out of this thread before I say what I'm really thinking in a less than tactful manner because it's not the time or place for it.


----------



## selzer

Tennessee said:


> I guess I'm left wondering in these sorts of situations what exactly people think they're actually accomplishing.
> 
> A prong is an inert piece of metal, a tool, it has no will of its own, it can be used for good or for evil. Dirtbags can use it to jerk around their tough image dog of choice (not a dig at a certain breed to remain nameless, that's simply the current choice) or responsible people can use it as intended, to improve the lives of their dog.
> 
> If your goal is to stop animal abuse, why are you blaming this inert piece of metal that has legitimate uses for the behavior of people?
> 
> And why do you think using the government to enforce this, will magically stop a pattern of behavior by banning a certain tool?
> 
> We can sit here and debate the logic of this back and forth for all eternity, but if one side has taken an illogical emotionally derived position it's pretty pointless.
> 
> I'm not really sure who I'm trying to convince at this point, I guess that was just a long way of saying I need to bow out of this thread before I say what I'm really thinking in a less than tactful manner because it's not the time or place for it.


Who said anything about the government?


----------



## KaiserAus

Prong collars are banned here in Australia.

E-collars are also banned unless they are to be used as a ‘Containment collar’ which means an electric collar that is designed to be worn by an animal as part of a containment system.
‘Containment system’ means a method of containing c area through the use of a boundary wire and transmitter that sends a radio signal to a receiver in a containment collar, which then delivers an electric shock to an animal wearing the collar if it gets too close to the boundary wire.

Choke chains/check chains/martingales aren't banned but they are extremely hard to come by, you won't find them in your standard pet shop.


----------



## selzer

KaiserAus said:


> Prong collars are banned here in Australia.
> 
> E-collars are also banned unless they are to be used as a ‘Containment collar’ which means an electric collar that is designed to be worn by an animal as part of a containment system.
> ‘Containment system’ means a method of containing c area through the use of a boundary wire and transmitter that sends a radio signal to a receiver in a containment collar, which then delivers an electric shock to an animal wearing the collar if it gets too close to the boundary wire.
> 
> Choke chains/check chains/martingales aren't banned but they are extremely hard to come by, you won't find them in your standard pet shop.


Well, the problem is not people having an opinion about the tool and its usage, the problem is having a government that interferes too much, too many laws. When your legislature or parliment is going to pass laws banning a collar, people retaliate by wanting to ban thoughts/opinions about the collar. Interesting.


----------



## thegooseman90

Well I think the real problem is people having an opinion that's not based on experience. Not saying you or anyone here necessarily but thinking back to the op. When the lady ran up and accused the op of being cruel for using the prong etc. most here can at least say they can see a time and place where the aversive collars are a useful tool. Many people have never used one or seen one being used correctly and automatically think it's cruel. Now I can safely say that 99% of the people on here would probably nod in disapproval at the very least, or more likely intervene, if we were walking down the street and witnessed a dog being pronged or shocked to death by some jerk who's using the collars as tools of abuse. 

I don't think any of us ever went to the pet store and thought "hey these collars look like they'll hurt, can't wait to abuse my dog with it!"


----------



## KaiserAus

selzer said:


> Well, the problem is not people having an opinion about the tool and its usage, the problem is having a government that interferes too much, too many laws. When your legislature or parliment is going to pass laws banning a collar, people retaliate by wanting to ban thoughts/opinions about the collar. Interesting.


I agree... the government interferes here too much, very little is left up to the general public to decide upon. There are rules and regulations for everything and it leaves people feeling frustrated and out of control of their own lives. And its turning he general Aussie into a real softie. Aussies used to be known as tough, hard core... not any more.


----------



## thegooseman90

I bet crocodile Dundee wouldn't be afraid to use a prong collar


----------



## Dunkirk

KaiserAus said:


> Prong collars are banned here in Australia.
> 
> E-collars are also banned unless they are to be used as a ‘Containment collar’ which means an electric collar that is designed to be worn by an animal as part of a containment system.
> ‘Containment system’ means a method of containing c area through the use of a boundary wire and transmitter that sends a radio signal to a receiver in a containment collar, which then delivers an electric shock to an animal wearing the collar if it gets too close to the boundary wire.
> 
> Choke chains/check chains/martingales aren't banned but they are extremely hard to come by, you won't find them in your standard pet shop.


You can purchase prong and ecollars in New South Wales from this business:

SHOP - Dog Collars - Training - K9 PRO


----------



## Dunkirk

thegooseman90 said:


> I bet crocodile Dundee wouldn't be afraid to use a prong collar


I don't think he'd have his dog on a leash. :-D


----------



## thegooseman90

Dunkirk said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bet crocodile Dundee wouldn't be afraid to use a prong collar
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he'd have his dog on a leash. :-D
Click to expand...

 who said anything about a dog? I was thinking for his pet crocodile! You think folks clear a sidewalk quick for a gsd just imagine if they saw that on the end of a leash haha


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I doubt the government would ever interfere with people's right to use a correction collar if it weren't for loud, opinionated people saying how barbaric and unnecessary they are.

Without some people making noise, I have a hard time envisioning some government waking up one day and saying "you know, I think prong collars are cruel". Someone put the bug in their ear.

There is legislation trying to get foothold here in the States, and the thing that just happened in Canada.


----------



## car2ner

It seems the AR people scream louder and more often than folks in dog obedience, sport and hunting clubs. But then again the average dog owner has the couch potato who sometimes plays with the kids and does little else. Why would they be concerned about what collar to use? sigh. 

I am all for democracy but sometimes it is not the best way to get things decided. It seems the noisiest mob wins.


----------



## Tennessee

selzer said:


> Who said anything about the government?


Why would you quote someone who said they need to bow out of a discussion?

But since you asked A general summation of your argument would be:

I dont personally need X item, it's dangerous if it's misused, therefore my situation applies to everyone, and no one needs to be using said item.

I've heard your argument before, it doesn't end with everyone just mindin their own biscuits and everything being gravy.

ETA extra word removed


----------



## LuvShepherds

Chip18 said:


> Uh ... "NO" I gave no example of "Prong Walking a puppy?? Nor did I give advise on how to do so?? I did say *"I don't try and walk a Dog in Drive" *... I wait for the dog to chill out, however long it takes ... I'm not in a hurry.
> 
> And to answer your question ... because "I" could ...now. The only dog I screwed up was my Band Dawg ... I got the Prong thing wrong with him ... my bad. After that I said screw it "Regular Collar and Flat Leash it is. Aside from my Band Dawg ... all my assorted Boxer/(Breed that shall not be mentioned)mixes and Boxers could be walked on leash by anyone. I could walk my personnel dogs on a leash or a harness or a Prong and using an E-Collar (No batteries required) or ... apparently nothing at all??? That last one ... is a GSD thing ... my Boxers sigh ... it was me, not my dogs ... lot of emotional baggage there ... despite "proof" they could walk off leash ... I just never was willing to trust them??? Rocky my GSD ... was the only dog I trusted off leas in an urban environment. That made no sense ... in as much as I could stop my Boxer off leash, off a Bunny at distance in the open desert?? My first Boxer/Mix only wore his collar to humor me! If a situation came up ... he'd chuck that collar at will (Stewie was a Martingale collar type dog) but I'd sayk stay and that was that. But only my GSD gave me the sense that he was actually aware of his surroundings so he was my first "off leash Dog." It came as a surprise to me ... but I digress.
> 
> 
> My dogs were "now" boring job done there, so off to rescue I go! And first time out they hand me a SSL and a dog that pulls and say ... "Becareful he pulls." Course to be fair ... it was a Boxer.
> 
> 
> But ...no he did not ... for me ...it was about them not the dog. It was a few minuet conversation with the dog, after I properly fitted the SLL, most likely ... that was the first time that had happened and an observer would have seen nothing untoward happening! The dog stopped struggling after a short bit, sat and looked up at me. I said "OK" and off we go. For me he was a joy to walk. I handed him over at the end of the day and yep sure enough off he goes dragging his handler behind him??? I've done that ... time and time again with strays I round up and rescues I work with.
> 
> I don't do IPO/LE/MWD/PPD's, I do rescue and in that world ... I'm good at the only tool they will allow you to use ... apparently. And the puppy thing ... well for the first couple of weeks the puppy just gets used to following you around leash free ... anyway.
> 
> If that's done right then putting a "Prong Collar" on a too young puppy should not be any big deal??? If the puppy bangs against the prong ... then it would be ... well that didn't work??? But to be clear that is *"Not to be Considered as "Advise"* I only mentioned it because someone else said it here first.
> 
> So if I'm that interested in giving it a shot ... I know who to contact because it seems like they have done it. Sometimes it's not about what you know ...it's about who you know.


Chip, stop playing games. I quoted exactly what you said, it was your quote. All the rest of what you just posted doesn't erase what you said in the previous post.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I doubt the government would ever interfere with people's right to use a correction collar if it weren't for loud, opinionated people saying how barbaric and unnecessary they are.
> 
> Without some people making noise, I have a hard time envisioning some government waking up one day and saying "you know, I think prong collars are cruel". Someone put the bug in their ear.
> 
> There is legislation trying to get foothold here in the States, and the thing that just happened in Canada.


That will be the end of the breed as we know it because people will not be able to train as well as they do now. I have said before, part of the reasoning behind the anti tool laws people want is to get rid of all "aggressive" breeds.


----------



## Chip18

thegooseman90 said:


> who said anything about a dog? I was thinking for his pet crocodile! You think folks clear a sidewalk quick for a gsd just imagine if they saw that on the end of a leash haha


LOL well ... now we know Bears make poor pets ... most likely Crocodile's are no better??? But yep I'd clear space if I someone walking one.


----------



## selzer

Tennessee said:


> *Why would you quote someone who said they need to bow out of a discussion?
> *
> But since you asked A general summation of your argument would be:
> 
> I dont personally need X item, it's dangerous if it's misused, therefore my situation applies to everyone, and no one needs to be using said item.
> 
> I've heard your argument before, it doesn't end with everyone just mindin their own biscuits and everything being gravy.
> 
> ETA extra word removed


Probably because when people make a statement, offer an opinion, and conclude by saying they are going to bow out, well that is just another way controlling people want to be heard but not questioned and not disagreed with. 

If I said, "Crates are cruel and everyone who has one should be arrested and thrown in prison. Now I will have to bow out of this conversation." Would that effectively eliminate everyone's right to offer a different opinion or say that I am mad? I think not.

I think the worse thing possible for dogs and dog-training is to silence any opposition to whatever method you are training with. There being opposition does NOT mean that people want the government to come in and ban other forms of training. It actually makes people think and when people think they may just grow some. 

Your AR groups give tons of money to politicians and they then pass laws they really have no experience with to make the AR people who are giving them money happy. This Lobbying is really corruption. I'm a breeder, pretty much if PETA, HSUS or any other AR group wants some law passed, I am against it. 

When folks are picking up their 8-week-old puppy and are asking you when they can use a prong on it, then maybe you will also like to see people in the dog-community open to other types of training, and not planning to just throw a prong on their dog. Maybe. I'd rather not see a prong collar on any of my dogs. Or an e-collar. I do believe that they can be used correctly, and that they can be effective. I also believe that they are unnecessary, but there are a lot of unnecessary things that people have an use. TVs, Microwaves, cell phones, social media. They are not necessarily evil. But if you NEED them, then we are stepping over a line, especially when it comes to dog training aides. If you are already expecting to use a prong collar when a pup is eight weeks, (unless for some agitation training or something screwy that I don't know about), then that isn't using the right tool for the right dog. And, by golly, if you think you will need it when you pick up the baby puppy, you WILL need it. Why? It has nothing to do with the dog at all. All about the trainer in that instance. 

You know why positive training methods do not work? Well, for a percentage, it is totally because the trainer has no faith in the method. Most of the rest is because bad training is bad training, and inconsistent training, lack of follow through and the whole nine yards will not net you good results. And some is because people confuse positive with permissive. 

Ideally, I think positive should be around 95% of all training. Corrections and Proofing, should be 5% or less, depending on the dog. I think a correction should be meaningful, it should not be annoying like a fly buzzing around. An appropriate correction, properly timed is a lot more humane than allowing a dog to remain in a negative behavior until it becomes dangerous or self-rewarding. 

And the more experience you have training dogs, the fewer and farther between become the need of these corrections. 

Now if I were to say, "otherwise we will have to agree to disagree" or "Now I will bow out of this conversation", are you all just going to leave my post stand as though we all just agree with it? 

Whatever.


----------



## thegooseman90

At some point, for most dogs, aversives will be necessary. I guess we can agree that a prong may not be necessary but what fills that role? Would you be happier if it were a hand, or foot? I've seen people do some real wwe type stuff too and trust me I think a prong or e collar is far less traumatic and abusive to the dog. 

I mean just to further this discussion let's say a dog works for 3 reasons. Because he wants to, because he thinks there's a reward to be had, and because he HAS to. The first two are easily done without an e collar or a prong, but how do you accomplish the third? I know in previous posts you've said respect and consistency but those are just general terms that don't mean much without getting into specifics. So could you provide some specific examples on how you'd train a dog to do something because he has to whether he wants to or not?


----------



## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> That will be the end of the breed as we know it because people will not be able to train as well as they do now. I have said before, part of the reasoning behind the anti tool laws people want is to get rid of all "aggressive" breeds.


LOL!!!! People CAN train dogs without prong collars or e-collars. And their dogs can be even better trained than dogs sporting the correction collars. 

See you can't possibly defend your collars without smacking the people who don't use them around. What you said, is that "people will not be able to train as well as they do now." Which suggests dogs trained without the collars are not well trained or as well trained-- THIS is what I object to. It isn't true. You can train a dog and never use these collars and have a well-trained dog.


----------



## Hineni7

Seller said "..... You can train a dog and never use these collars and have a well-trained dog." 

True, you can train A Dog, but not necessarily ALL dogs and this is where the conflict comes in. Unless you have had the extremely drivey, high high prey drive dog and tried to work them safely and effectively and consistently and been able to train that dog (s) because it needs to be more than one for proof that these tools aren't needed at times, then the statement is what is what people take offense at.


----------



## selzer

thegooseman90 said:


> At some point, for most dogs, aversives will be necessary. I guess we can agree that a prong may not be necessary but what fills that role? Would you be happier if it were a hand, or foot? I've seen people do some real wwe type stuff too and trust me I think a prong or e collar is far less traumatic and abusive to the dog.
> 
> I mean just to further this discussion let's say a dog works for 3 reasons. Because he wants to, because he thinks there's a reward to be had, and because he HAS to. The first two are easily done without an e collar or a prong, but how do you accomplish the third? I know in previous posts you've said respect and consistency but those are just general terms that don't mean much without getting into specifics. So could you provide some specific examples on how you'd train a dog to do something because he has to whether he wants to or not?



It is hard to be specific about an open topic. How do you motivate a dog to do something he doesn't want to do that you need for him to do? Like what? 

I am not sure where my dogs fit into this. I use praise as a reward, so I am not a walking pez dispenser. I tend to train something without treats, and expect the dog to figure out what I am communicating through my body language, repetition, and consistency, and timing the praise when the response by the dog is correct. The dogs like to work with me, so motivating them through praise is pretty easy. I really don't have a lot of things the dog has to do because he has to.

If I need the toenail clips, and he has to sit there and get them clipped, I do not stop and give a treat, nope, it is something he has to do. So I just do it. The dog may object the first time and I am like tough, I just get the job done. Without allowing it to become a horror story, the next time we clip nails is easier and the next time easier still. It is kind of a no-nonsense approach. 

I really don't have trouble with them getting their temperature taken or blood drawn, that might be something they must stand still for that they have to do, but may not want to do. But because they trust me, they will accept that without any problem. I don't need a prong collar at the vet. 

I guess I just do not have things that my dog has to do because he has to whether he wants to or not. I guess we are the human, and the dog either does something because he wants to, or because I want him to. If it is because I want him to, then it is up to me to train the obstacle, and provide an indication that he did what was wanted. 

If the dog is running around in a yard with a bunch dogs and you want the dog to come. And he wants to run around with a bunch of dogs. Then, you train the recall when there are not a bunch of dogs running around. You train it on lead. You praise the recall when he performs it well. When he does not do it immediately, you go and get him, he is on line, and you bring him to where you want him to be. You make sure that you ALWAYS follow through. You do not give him the impression that it is optional. You do not give the command in situation where you do not think he is likely to comply, until he is ready. You start adding in distractions. You do it in different locations. You continue to keep him on lead, until he is excellent, than you start over with no distractions off lead, and you continue to praise for immediate response, and usually he never fails. If you did not remove the leash too soon, then he will not. If you do, you go back several steps. But you also go and get him and bring him to where you were. Don't give him the idea that it is optional. And one day when your dog slips its collar in a busy parking lot, and you call her, she comes right to you and sits in front of you so that you can get her collar back on her. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. 

I am not a fan of proofing dogs, because that seems to be usually done before a dog is ready and the object is to set the dog up to fail, so that you can correct it. I prefer to set the dog up to succeed so I can praise it. 

At the end of the day, I think the human condition is to focus on the instances when a critter failed us in some way. And that seems to cancel out all the previous successes -- those we expected, but the failure is unexpected, and therefore we focus in on it. I think when we have reasonable expectations for our dogs maturity level and training level, we find ourselves proud of our dog's successes and happy with training, and failures will be few and far between. When we are proofing dogs early, we are a lot more likely to be discouraged and frustrated, and our dogs failures will be more and worse. 

If we have higher expectations for our dog, we can, within reason, work more with them, give higher rewards, and build more drive and more confidence. Frankly, these dogs have great temperaments, and they WANT to work with us. It is EASY to get them to want to do whatever we want them to do. We shouldn't really have to drive these dogs to do anything.


----------



## dogma13

I guess I just do not have things that my dog has to do because he has to whether he wants to or not

And there it is.Other owners do.


----------



## Tennessee

selzer said:


> Probably because when people make a statement, offer an opinion, and conclude by saying they are going to bow out, well that is just another way controlling people want to be heard but not questioned and not disagreed with.
> 
> If I said, "Crates are cruel and everyone who has one should be arrested and thrown in prison. Now I will have to bow out of this conversation." Would that effectively eliminate everyone's right to offer a different opinion or say that I am mad? I think not.
> 
> I think the worse thing possible for dogs and dog-training is to silence any opposition to whatever method you are training with. There being opposition does NOT mean that people want the government to come in and ban other forms of training. It actually makes people think and when people think they may just grow some.
> 
> Your AR groups give tons of money to politicians and they then pass laws they really have no experience with to make the AR people who are giving them money happy. This Lobbying is really corruption. I'm a breeder, pretty much if PETA, HSUS or any other AR group wants some law passed, I am against it.
> 
> When folks are picking up their 8-week-old puppy and are asking you when they can use a prong on it, then maybe you will also like to see people in the dog-community open to other types of training, and not planning to just throw a prong on their dog. Maybe. I'd rather not see a prong collar on any of my dogs. Or an e-collar. I do believe that they can be used correctly, and that they can be effective. I also believe that they are unnecessary, but there are a lot of unnecessary things that people have an use. TVs, Microwaves, cell phones, social media. They are not necessarily evil. But if you NEED them, then we are stepping over a line, especially when it comes to dog training aides. If you are already expecting to use a prong collar when a pup is eight weeks, (unless for some agitation training or something screwy that I don't know about), then that isn't using the right tool for the right dog. And, by golly, if you think you will need it when you pick up the baby puppy, you WILL need it. Why? It has nothing to do with the dog at all. All about the trainer in that instance.
> 
> You know why positive training methods do not work? Well, for a percentage, it is totally because the trainer has no faith in the method. Most of the rest is because bad training is bad training, and inconsistent training, lack of follow through and the whole nine yards will not net you good results. And some is because people confuse positive with permissive.
> 
> Ideally, I think positive should be around 95% of all training. Corrections and Proofing, should be 5% or less, depending on the dog. I think a correction should be meaningful, it should not be annoying like a fly buzzing around. An appropriate correction, properly timed is a lot more humane than allowing a dog to remain in a negative behavior until it becomes dangerous or self-rewarding.
> 
> And the more experience you have training dogs, the fewer and farther between become the need of these corrections.
> 
> Now if I were to say, "otherwise we will have to agree to disagree" or "Now I will bow out of this conversation", are you all just going to leave my post stand as though we all just agree with it?
> 
> Whatever.


You've taken an absolutist position, I'm not going to go back and quote you but fairly verbatim you've said "if a person can't control their dog without a prong, they shouldn't have that dog" and as far as I've seen you've never backed away from that. 

There's no wiggle room in that, no debate, no conversation. 

You don't want a conversation, you want everyone to agree with you. 

And for the 5th dang time I HAVE NEVER USED A PRONG OR ECOLLAR. Good lord. 

I'm just not going to ignore reality and be arrogant enough to pretend like I've got the this whole dog training thing figured out 100% of the time.

ETA i have used an ecollar before but it wasn't on my pup


----------



## Tennessee

And for the record, I've stated my opinion and defended it more than once. 

I like this forum and I'd like to make my stay here a lengthy one, but this conversation is drawing me towards saying some things better left unsaid. 

What side you take in this debate and especially what arguments you make for or against, says a lot about you as a person and your opinions on life in general. I think I've made why I think thats true pretty clear, so in the highly divided world we live in I'd prefer to just talk about dogs here. 

That's why I feel it's best I leave this conversation. It's not cause I'm unwilling to debate an issue.


----------



## LuvShepherds

selzer said:


> LOL!!!! People CAN train dogs without prong collars or e-collars. And their dogs can be even better trained than dogs sporting the correction collars.
> 
> See you can't possibly defend your collars without smacking the people who don't use them around. What you said, is that "people will not be able to train as well as they do now." Which suggests dogs trained without the collars are not well trained or as well trained-- THIS is what I object to. It isn't true. You can train a dog and never use these collars and have a well-trained dog.


The people who need them will still need them. They will not be able to handle or manage their dogs.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Hineni7 said:


> Seller said "..... You can train a dog and never use these collars and have a well-trained dog."
> 
> True, you can train A Dog, but not necessarily ALL dogs and this is where the conflict comes in. Unless you have had the extremely drivey, high high prey drive dog and tried to work them safely and effectively and consistently and been able to train that dog (s) because it needs to be more than one for proof that these tools aren't needed at times, then the statement is what is what people take offense at.


It is dismissive to wrote off all tools as unnecessary when people are good handlers with the dogs they have and never need them. My private trainer has used all tools at times. He fits the tools to the dogs and the owners, with the goal of eventually not needing them. Depriving people of tools because some don't like them, is stealing the joy of training and relationship and even ownership from those who do. There is a woman I knew when I worked with a club who trained a GSD from a wheelchair. She needed a prong because she didn't have the strength to handle the dog in the rare times when her dog was not responding to training. She rarely needed it but once her dog went off on mine. One quick, sharp correction and her dog was back in control. If prongs are banned, people like that won't be able to train their own dogs. She would have needed a second person to take over when she could not. That is cruel and unfair.


----------



## Hineni7

I have a question for you Selzer... At one point in some of your responses, you mentioned horses and how people can lead them and their size with a halter - and if that doesn't work, there is a chain for that (something like that). Why and how is that different? I have trained horses (and people, and believe me, horses are easier) for about 25yrs - thousands of them. I use a rope halter and nothing more than a snaffle bit (except when showing and rules require more) in venues including, gaming, reining, cutting, dressage, jumping, extreme trail etc. It takes training and time. However, if a student is fearful of their abilities (or even the horse unwarranted) I encourage them to continue learning, and use what will make them feel safe (because if you feel unsafe you tend to do stupid things) bit wise. Usually, they continue learning and are able to find what works best for them and their horse and it is quite often a snaffle (or more for showing). So if a chain is appropriate for a prey animal why is it not appropriate (at times or for those in the unfcomfortable situation) for a predator animal? Why assume that the horse should wear the chain for safety instead of 'just' training them? Because at the time you are with your nieces and want safety???? hmmm... sounds like some other posters with their dogs...

There have been horses that remained a challenge and required a skillful rider/handler. Some people (quite alot actually) will not put the time or energy necessary to train themselves to work with the horse. Those people will continue to use equipment I don't believe in, but ultimately keeps them safe, so who am I to judge?

I agree with your points on training, bonding, and trying to use the least amount possible to get the best response. I believe in that. However, whether or not you have ever had the dog, situation, or experience in high adrenaline/prey/stress on a continuing basis with a dog that is high drive/prey driven, then you cannot accurately assess whether or not you would use tools to aid in your communication with the dog. You may never choose to be in that situation and that is ok. But to judge others for being in that situation is disturbing. 

Outside of my one high high high prey driven GSD, I have only used ecollars on a limited basis and then been done with them. I do SAR and can be put in very odd, stressful and demanding situations that require 100% obedience WHILE performing a highly foucused and demanding job (even if natural) for the dog (and human). Proofing cannot be left to the occassional, 'oh, now I need to do something but haven't worked my dog for 4yrs, hope they are good.' situation. The GSD that preferred to herd my horses with his teeth on their legs was unacceptable. Tying him was not going to give him a good life. Wearing an ecollar allowed him freedom and kept him honest when his prey drive kicked into overdrive, and my horses safe. Your argument would be that I relied on it and that I had no bond with this dog. You would be in serious error and making assumptions you have no basis on. I worked with him for years and he got pretty good, but never 100%. My duty was to the other animals as well and pride has no bearing. He wore his collar often, especially if I could not keep my focus on him fully. It neither harmed him nor our relationship. Would I prefer to have not had to have it on him? Absolutely, but I wasn't risking another animals pain and suffering, and a vet bill to find out he wasn't perfect in an avenue that perfection was necessary.

Which brings me to LE, or those with a dog that is above their skill or has issues. Sometimes, no matter the training, genetics play a role in how the game is played and the use of tools keeps the dog from being PTS, having a miserable life locked in a yard, tied, or the public put in danger. This does not mean humans failed the dog and have no bond. It just means that other avenues were necessary to be taken to ensure safety for all. 

I am truly glad you have wonderful dogs with a softer temperament. It sounds like they are gentle, intelligent and love their owner (you) and you love them. This is excellent. I don't judge you or condemn you for using nothing but a martingale; I applaud you for trying to use the least amount to get the most. But until you are doing high drive/prey sports or a livlihood that requires a working line drive in the dog and the situations are demanding I don't believe you can give a fair assessment of whether someone (anyone) who uses an ecollar/prong more than just for occassional training should own that dog....nope..


----------



## Slamdunc

selzer said:


> LOL!!!! People CAN train dogs without prong collars or e-collars. And their dogs can be even better trained than dogs sporting the correction collars.
> 
> See you can't possibly defend your collars without smacking the people who don't use them around. What you said, is that "people will not be able to train as well as they do now." Which suggests dogs trained without the collars are not well trained or as well trained-- THIS is what I object to. It isn't true. *You can train a dog and never use these collars and have a well-trained dog*.


Selzer,

What you said in bold is true for many dogs, but not EVERY dog. No, you simply can not train all dogs with your style of training. There is a fair percentage of dogs that will not respond to your training and never will. These dogs will walk all over a flat collar and treat a handler like a whimpering littermate. While I do agree with most of what you say, I also use 95% positive training. My interactions with dogs are fair and consistent. However, not all dogs can be trained on a flat collar, choke collar or martingale. You keep saying this, and it is an inaccurate statement and a misguided belief. That is what I object to. 

To keep implying that all dogs can be trained with out a prong or E collar is really naive. I can show you dogs that need the control these collars offer. 

It may be time for everyone to agree to disagree on this thread.


----------



## WIBackpacker

selzer said:


> I've never looked down on corrections. My beef with "training equipment" is that no training is happening a lot of the time. The dog will wear that collar forever because it breeds dependence where training breeds independence. But whatever. I don't have a problem with people using equipment with dogs they can manage without the equipment. Cowboygirl talks about a dog that would kill livestock or pets without an e-collar. No, the dog was certainly manageable without an e-collar. It could have been kept on lead, or in a fenced area. The vast majority of dogs living in cities and villages do not roam freely in search of livestock or pets to eat. They are kept indoors, in fenced yards, and on lead. And they live that way just fine. A dog that will kill livestock cannot roam a farm, roam in in farm country at will. It would be killed either by the owner or by other farmers. But why should it have that kind of freedom anyway. It actually isn't good for dogs to spend a lot of time free on acreage. These are dogs that work WITH people, and a good number of them would be in trouble if they are giving free reign.
> 
> Ok, if you have 50 acres or so, and you want your dog to accompany you on the farm, you will either get rid of a dog that kills other animals, or you will find a way to manage that behavior. Cowboygirl used an e-collar. And that worked for her. I would have used a leash, and kept the dog away from neighbor's pets and my own. Not a big deal, really. Not a reason to kill a dog. It does not mean the dog is not manageable without a collar. That statement came about the constant statements about small women with large dogs not being able to manage them without a prong collar. I call Baloney on that. If they TRULY cannot manage the dog without the collar they shouldn't have the dog at all. And how do they get the collar on the dog if they cannot manage the dog without the collar? Really?
> 
> So the real question is, Is a dog truly better off being able to run around on an e-collar, or being taken many places the owner does not feel comfortable with them in, or being connected to the owner, or kept in safer areas until the owner feels more confident about handling the dog? I dunno. It must be nice to live on a farm with your dogs, all those city people are abusing theirs by keeping them under wraps. But we can say crap like that because we are defending prong collars. Oh, the dogs are so much better off being able to run around all over the place because of its e-collar. You just made probably 70 percent of GSD owners feel bad for having their dogs living in a city where they cannot let them run all over the place, and their poor animals are confined to their postage-stamp back yards (if fenced), and the leash.
> 
> Ah well. The reality of it is, that dogs actually are pretty capable of adjusting to whatever we can give them, spare space, spare time, spare food, etc. They can sleep outdoors or indoors, they can live with the run of the house or the kennel or the yard, or acreage. What's more is a lot of dogs are home-bodies. They are perfectly happy to be at home. They do not need to "go everywhere" with their owner. If your sister doesn't have dogs and doesn't want yours in her home when you come for dinner, leave the dog home, it's fine. But no, we must take offense at that and not talk to our sister because she does not welcome our dog. Insanity. Sometimes dog people go too far.
> 
> If I do not trust a dog off leash, then I do not let them off leash. I do not shove a remote on him, and then zap him when I don't like what he is doing. You suggest my way is crueler, completely slapping the faces of all the city dwellers who must keep their dogs on lead all the time. But that's ok. This is getting redundant.


I debated whether or not to respond to this. But since you quoted me directly, at length, I suppose I shall.

I don't live on a "farm" in any traditional sense of the word. As a matter of fact, I'm a borderline minimalist who lives in a 110 year old (and counting) tiny cabin without a furnace, on 1/10 acre of land. 

The mere idea that I would scorn someone else's living conditions as "unworthy" is worth a laugh, since I'm *beyond* frugal and am probably closer to a simplistic nomad than anything else.

I also chronicled the first year of my current herding dog's training in a rather lengthy thread. Flat and rolled leather collar only. 

Perhaps you have me pegged wrong. Perhaps the quote was intended for someone else. Anyone who actually knows me would probably keel over and die of laughter if I were publicly accused of being elitist. 

Either way, enjoy your holiday.


----------



## Chip18

WIBackpacker said:


> I also chronicled the first year of my current herding dog's training in a rather lengthy thread. Flat and rolled leather collar only.


Hmmm, Herding you say??? I gotta find that thread. Because of being here, I've decided that my next "Boxer" is gonna have a "JOB!" I found out they have a whole bunch of training options in Truckee. About an hour from me and the "Herding" thing is one of them. Boxer's have the speed but beyond that ... yeah.


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## WIBackpacker

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm, Herding you say??? I gotta find that thread. Because of being here, I've decided that my next "Boxer" is gonna have a "JOB!" I found out they have a whole bunch of training options in Truckee. About an hour from me and the "Herding" thing is one of them. Boxer's have the speed but beyond that ... yeah.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/herding/604297-ayla-~-herding-foundation-stock-manners.html


----------



## selzer

Hineni7 said:


> I have a question for you Selzer... At one point in some of your responses, you mentioned horses and how people can lead them and their size with a halter - and if that doesn't work, there is a chain for that (something like that). Why and how is that different? I have trained horses (and people, and believe me, horses are easier) for about 25yrs - thousands of them. I use a rope halter and nothing more than a snaffle bit (except when showing and rules require more) in venues including, gaming, reining, cutting, dressage, jumping, extreme trail etc. It takes training and time. However, if a student is fearful of their abilities (or even the horse unwarranted) I encourage them to continue learning, and use what will make them feel safe (because if you feel unsafe you tend to do stupid things) bit wise. Usually, they continue learning and are able to find what works best for them and their horse and it is quite often a snaffle (or more for showing). So if a chain is appropriate for a prey animal why is it not appropriate (at times or for those in the unfcomfortable situation) for a predator animal? Why assume that the horse should wear the chain for safety instead of 'just' training them? Because at the time you are with your nieces and want safety???? hmmm... sounds like some other posters with their dogs...
> 
> There have been horses that remained a challenge and required a skillful rider/handler. Some people (quite alot actually) will not put the time or energy necessary to train themselves to work with the horse. Those people will continue to use equipment I don't believe in, but ultimately keeps them safe, so who am I to judge?
> 
> I agree with your points on training, bonding, and trying to use the least amount possible to get the best response. I believe in that. However, whether or not you have ever had the dog, situation, or experience in high adrenaline/prey/stress on a continuing basis with a dog that is high drive/prey driven, then you cannot accurately assess whether or not you would use tools to aid in your communication with the dog. You may never choose to be in that situation and that is ok. But to judge others for being in that situation is disturbing.
> 
> Outside of my one high high high prey driven GSD, I have only used ecollars on a limited basis and then been done with them. I do SAR and can be put in very odd, stressful and demanding situations that require 100% obedience WHILE performing a highly foucused and demanding job (even if natural) for the dog (and human). Proofing cannot be left to the occassional, 'oh, now I need to do something but haven't worked my dog for 4yrs, hope they are good.' situation. The GSD that preferred to herd my horses with his teeth on their legs was unacceptable. Tying him was not going to give him a good life. Wearing an ecollar allowed him freedom and kept him honest when his prey drive kicked into overdrive, and my horses safe. Your argument would be that I relied on it and that I had no bond with this dog. You would be in serious error and making assumptions you have no basis on. I worked with him for years and he got pretty good, but never 100%. My duty was to the other animals as well and pride has no bearing. He wore his collar often, especially if I could not keep my focus on him fully. It neither harmed him nor our relationship. Would I prefer to have not had to have it on him? Absolutely, but I wasn't risking another animals pain and suffering, and a vet bill to find out he wasn't perfect in an avenue that perfection was necessary.
> 
> Which brings me to LE, or those with a dog that is above their skill or has issues. Sometimes, no matter the training, genetics play a role in how the game is played and the use of tools keeps the dog from being PTS, having a miserable life locked in a yard, tied, or the public put in danger. This does not mean humans failed the dog and have no bond. It just means that other avenues were necessary to be taken to ensure safety for all.
> 
> I am truly glad you have wonderful dogs with a softer temperament. It sounds like they are gentle, intelligent and love their owner (you) and you love them. This is excellent. I don't judge you or condemn you for using nothing but a martingale; I applaud you for trying to use the least amount to get the most. But until you are doing high drive/prey sports or a livlihood that requires a working line drive in the dog and the situations are demanding I don't believe you can give a fair assessment of whether someone (anyone) who uses an ecollar/prong more than just for occassional training should own that dog....nope..


My mother bought me 6 riding lessons for Christmas when I was 11 years old. She got me to four of them. Other than running a tack shop for a while and being familiar with training bits like tom thumbs, and such, and that some people like lead ropes with chain and some without, and a lot of other stuff like the differences between English and western and Australian, dressage, English pleasure, western pleasure and the other types of western saddles, and tack. I really do not have any experience with the the horse world. My sister's kid was leading around a percheron, no idea if the lead rope had a chain or not. I suppose I know enough to be dangerous. Big animal, tiny kids, and they can manage them without choke collars or mule bits, or tom thumbs. I know they are using snaffles. I know a little. I put together their saddles -- steubens, in English the bridle is usually sold as a unit and the saddle you have to buy the girth and the stirrups and the stirrup straps, Where with westerns the saddle is usually sold as a unit, and you often build your bridle with what you want. 

But whatever. While I will pick the girls up at the barn on occasion, and I've gone to a show a couple of times, I am not working with them and horses. I am working with them and dogs. The first time I brought 3 four month old puppies to the park and handed them each a leash, the pup's pulled the girls right down. Yeah that was a mistake. The answer was not to put a prong on the puppies. The answer was to start the girls on dogs that were better trained and help them learn. They were five or six years old. Now at 10, they can handle more. 

I think a lot of it is semantics. If you need the collar to control your dog, than I don't think you should have the dog. I am not backing down on that. Sorry. I truly believe there are only a handful of dogs that fall into that category. Dogs that are so driven, so unpredictable, so predatory, that without the collar the dog will cause serious injury, and the people cannot safely manage them without the collars.

Yeah, I won't have a dog that I am afraid of, because I see the possibilities of what might happen to me or to someone else. And, in my opinion others should not own dogs they are afraid of. Unfortunately, there are way too many incidents with dogs because people are over-matched, and deny the dog is unmanageable, deny that they are incapable of managing them, and frankly, for these few dogs, the collars can give an illusion of control, that will last while the collar is on and until the right situation approaches. And even if we managed to keep a dog like this with the use of "tools", sometimes that is just an accident. My bitch, Arwen, was lost for 19 days from Christmas until January 13 (many years ago). She did not die in the road. Should I then conclude that dogs are really not in danger of being smooshed in the road when running loose? God Forbid. I dodged a bullet. I got lucky. I made sure that would NEVER happen again. Keeping a dog we cannot control is a recipe for tragedy. If it doesn't happen, than one of two things: the dog really wasn't that uncontrollable, or ya got lucky, ya dodged a bullet. 

I don't care what collar it is, a collar cannot make an unsafe dog safe. 

BTW, in all the dogs I have raised and trained and all the classes I have been to, I have had a dog bite one of mine 1 time. The dog was wearing both a prong collar and an e-collar. It also had a citronella collar for barking. That guy thought his dog was getting better. It is amazing how we can delude ourselves when seeing a situation for what it really is, means making hard decisions, or doing a lot of work. 

People who use prongs to stop the dog from pulling or for agitation on some training, that does not mean the dog cannot be controlled without the collar. It might mean that you aren't going to walk the dog as often because it becomes a chore. But it doesn't mean the dog is unmanageable without the collar.


----------



## selzer

Tennessee said:


> You've taken an absolutist position, I'm not going to go back and quote you but fairly verbatim you've said "if a person can't control their dog without a prong, they shouldn't have that dog" and as far as I've seen you've never backed away from that. *And I won't. *
> 
> There's no wiggle room in that, no debate, no conversation.
> 
> You don't want a conversation, you want everyone to agree with you.
> 
> And for the 5th dang time I HAVE NEVER USED A PRONG OR ECOLLAR. Good lord. *I don't remember suggesting that you have. I don't know you from Adam. Why would I accuse you of using the collars? *
> 
> I'm just not going to ignore reality and be arrogant enough to pretend like I've got the this whole dog training thing figured out 100% of the time.
> 
> ETA i have used an ecollar before but it wasn't on my pup


And for the 50th time, I have suggested prong collars to people. There is a difference between using them for an end, and not being able to control the dog without them. 

I am really amazed at the number of people who truly believe that they would not be able to manage a dog without a training collar. Unbelievable.


----------



## cloudpump

selzer said:


> My mother bought me 6 riding lessons for Christmas when I was 11 years old. She got me to four of them. Other than running a tack shop for a while and being familiar with training bits like tom thumbs, and such, and that some people like lead ropes with chain and some without, and a lot of other stuff like the differences between English and western and Australian, dressage, English pleasure, western pleasure and the other types of western saddles, and tack. I really do not have any experience with the the horse world. My sister's kid was leading around a percheron, no idea if the lead rope had a chain or not. I suppose I know enough to be dangerous. Big animal, tiny kids, and they can manage them without choke collars or mule bits, or tom thumbs. I know they are using snaffles. I know a little. I put together their saddles -- steubens, in English the bridle is usually sold as a unit and the saddle you have to buy the girth and the stirrups and the stirrup straps, Where with westerns the saddle is usually sold as a unit, and you often build your bridle with what you want.
> 
> But whatever. While I will pick the girls up at the barn on occasion, and I've gone to a show a couple of times, I am not working with them and horses. I am working with them and dogs. The first time I brought 3 four month old puppies to the park and handed them each a leash, the pup's pulled the girls right down. Yeah that was a mistake. The answer was not to put a prong on the puppies. The answer was to start the girls on dogs that were better trained and help them learn. They were five or six years old. Now at 10, they can handle more.
> 
> I think a lot of it is semantics. If you need the collar to control your dog, than I don't think you should have the dog. I am not backing down on that. Sorry. I truly believe there are only a handful of dogs that fall into that category. Dogs that are so driven, so unpredictable, so predatory, that without the collar the dog will cause serious injury, and the people cannot safely manage them without the collars.
> 
> Yeah, I won't have a dog that I am afraid of, because I see the possibilities of what might happen to me or to someone else. And, in my opinion others should not own dogs they are afraid of. Unfortunately, there are way too many incidents with dogs because people are over-matched, and deny the dog is unmanageable, deny that they are incapable of managing them, and frankly, for these few dogs, the collars can give an illusion of control, that will last while the collar is on and until the right situation approaches. And even if we managed to keep a dog like this with the use of "tools", sometimes that is just an accident. My bitch, Arwen, was lost for 19 days from Christmas until January 13 (many years ago). She did not die in the road. Should I then conclude that dogs are really not in danger of being smooshed in the road when running loose? God Forbid. I dodged a bullet. I got lucky. I made sure that would NEVER happen again. Keeping a dog we cannot control is a recipe for tragedy. If it doesn't happen, than one of two things: the dog really wasn't that uncontrollable, or ya got lucky, ya dodged a bullet.
> 
> I don't care what collar it is, a collar cannot make an unsafe dog safe.
> 
> BTW, in all the dogs I have raised and trained and all the classes I have been to, I have had a dog bite one of mine 1 time. The dog was wearing both a prong collar and an e-collar. It also had a citronella collar for barking. That guy thought his dog was getting better. It is amazing how we can delude ourselves when seeing a situation for what it really is, means making hard decisions, or doing a lot of work.
> 
> People who use prongs to stop the dog from pulling or for agitation on some training, that does not mean the dog cannot be controlled without the collar. It might mean that you aren't going to walk the dog as often because it becomes a chore. But it doesn't mean the dog is unmanageable without the collar.


Not necessarily true. Your stance is your stance. However, there is more than what is right in front of you. Different drives, thresholds, expectations, etc. 
High drive dogs that shut out the world when a cat runs by, nervy dogs, etc. A training collar can be a great tool.


----------



## selzer

cloudpump said:


> Not necessarily true. Your stance is your stance. However, there is more than what is right in front of you. Different drives, thresholds, expectations, etc.
> High drive dogs that shut out the world when a cat runs by, nervy dogs, etc. A training collar can be a great tool.


Well, you all couldn't pay me to keep a crazy working line dog. Sorry, but that ain't right. It just isn't. I've actually had a couple of working line dogs, and while I was not crazy about their energy and drives, I never used a prong on any of them, they never dragged me into a cat or small child or anything else. But if all ya'all are making them even higher drive and even crazier you can have them.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Selzer I will just say this. I have decades and thousands of hours more experience than you with horses. 

And the statements you make about children leading percherons and so forth as an example of why presumably force is not necessary....and small people can control big animals....is just limited and romantic.

I said this before, there are very gentle horses that will allow themselves to be led, handled, ridden safely by children. And there are a much bigger majority that would eat those kids for lunch. I did school horse shopping for a busy lesson program for a decade, and we searched high and low for those good ones. They are worth their weight in gold. There aren't that many of them.

For the amount of knowledge you have about horses, I honestly don't thinknow you should be making statements using them as an example.


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## Hineni7

Thank you for responding Selzer. And you are quite correct, knowing about tackdoes not mean knowledge about horses, their nature, traiing, etc.. So we will stop using horse analogies...

In this statement you sum it beautifully my point.... 
Selzer said... "Well, you all couldn't pay me to keep a crazy working line dog. Sorry, but that ain't right. It just isn't. I've actually had a couple of working line dogs, and while I was not crazy about their energy and drives, I never used a prong on any of them, they never dragged me into a cat or small child or anything else. But if all ya'all are making them even higher drive and even crazier you can have them."

Your opinions of working line dogs and their drives is based on a couple of working line dogs you had. You have professed many times that you prefer a lower drive dog - and that is ok that is your choice. But if my 'crazy high drive' working line dog needed a prong or an ecollar (the latter of which I have used to help on long distance recall) your opinion would be that I should not have the dog. However, those 'crazy drives' are what make her and so many other 'crazy dogs' useful in saving lives; for me it is SAR, for others it is LE or MWD. Those drives are what give the dog the edge to work in conditions well beyond most peoples comfort zone or ability (desire) to endure. For many of the working dogs, the focus is on the job they will do, that is where a majority of their training is placed - to save other peoples lives by sniffing out bombs, LE, SAR, patrol, etc... When a prong or ecollar is used it is because these 'crazy drivey' dogs are saving lives and yet need to navigate in an area where they are not as trained because that is not what they are used for. So a prong or ecollar is put on a dog about to dive out of an airplane (closed quarter, altitude, stress beyond stress etc) and you say this person should not have the dog... I am sorry, but that is super naive and shows a closed minded attitude.

While I am sure most of your remarks are for the general public and not LE, MWD, SAR who spend their lives protecting (searching) yours and others, your blanket statement covers those people whose lives you have no clue about. You have on many posts given the general theme that the more sedate activities are your favor. Again, that is ok. But a GSD is a working dog and has drives that SHOULD be there. Are there those with more drives than preferred? Yes. And sometimes they go to homes with people that don't know how to, or cannot funnel those drives into fulll control, so they use the tools they need to make the dog safe. You say no prong or ecollar makes a dog safe - true. Safer? YES. And just because a dog has a flat collar on does not mean it won't do something stupid and bite, or critter, or whatever. Dogs are dogs and make mistakes as do people.

For the handicapped, I have seen prong and ecollars on these dogs. Extremely well trained, however, because the dogs are strong and drivey (needed to do their job) and the disabled person has difficulty managing their pull on occassion, it is used. So, these people should not own the dog? Ridiculous.. Again, a blanket statement does not cover all contingencies and is just naive and maddening to those who know better. 

Unfortunately, this is a stalemate in this discussion. While I agree in heart with your desire to ld and more training/relationship


----------



## Hineni7

Sorry computer froze... 

While I agree with you in heart the desire to see more relationship and training fueled owners, your resistance in seeing what others point out with legitimate reasons and real life experience in venues you don't desire to be in or do, is disheartening. You have the right to not own a high drive dog or participate in activities or livelihoods that require such a dog and the subsequent tools, but to then cast a net of judgment on them because they don't meet your lofty ideas of what should be is not right. You don't have the experience in their world and by choice choose not to. Again, that is alright. But don't condemn them when they use what is necessary at times when you don't have the knowledge of what is expected or needed. That would be like me saying all drs need to be surgeons and if they aren't, they shouldn't be a Dr... Absolutely not true..


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## Cassidy's Mom

I have a crazy working line dog. LOVE HER! :wub: And while she bucks and lunges in the flyball ring while screaming like a demented chimpanzee, she's totally chill in her crate between races, and very calm around the house. More so, actually, than my WGSL boy Keefer - and he's nearly 12 years old. 

A good WL dog will have an off switch, which Halo definitely has. She turns it on and she turns it off. Learning to channel her drives appropriately was definitely a learning experience at first since I didn't really know what to do with all that energy and drive, but we found a great local trainer to help. And even prior that, Halo absolutely excelled in all of her OB classes, from the very first puppy class starting at 13 weeks old. Her focus and work ethic is fantastic, more so than any dog we've ever had. She's a ton of fun to train since her joy in working that brilliant brain is clearly evident, and her enthusiasm and athleticism are apparent in everything she does. 

I can see why people might be intimidated by the idea of a WL dog- I was certainly hesitant at first. But now I'm not sure I'll have anything else.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I still don't think working line or not matters that much. My 10 1/2 year old WL is a crack head sometimes and she has never had a prong on her in her life. I have used an E Collar on her though. I chose not to get another wl this time around, but I still don't agree with Selzer's impression of what they are.

I may or may not ever own another one. But I have a huge amount of respect for what they are. I think my white dog is a better household companion but I have a hard time envisioning him jumping out of a helicopter or an airplane? But I could be wrong, he sure does love to jump and fly.

I have a boarder dog, a young lab, who is slightly unmanageable with a prong on and completely unmanageable without it. The first time I met him, he pulled so hard on a poorly fitted, rubber tipped prong that he hacked and choked for about an hour after having the collar taken off. I suggested a properly fitted herm sprenger, on which he can be somewhat moved from point A to point B without choking or knocking down his owners.

I met him around 6 months. I think he is about a year now. He does not have a fenced yard and except for coming here to board, has never been off a six foot leash and does not get walked. I've suggested a few times tat they fence in an area for him and would you know they have finally hired a contractor to do it, a date is set. So he will finally have a yard to run in.

Should they not own the dog? I don't think about it honestly because they do own the dog, they love him, and they aren't getting rid of him. I made two suggestions, a different and properly fitted prong, and a fenced area to exercise. I believe both have or will improved his life. Whether they took those suggestions was out of my control but I'm not going to lie, I was pretty elated when they told me they are fencing a yard for him.

Things just aren't that black and white in the real world it seems. A lot of people commenting here are not your average pet owners. Anybody who even does any sport at all, even rally, I don't think are average pet owners. So there's that. And the other thing is---did you breed and/or raise this dog and be able to teach a good foundation vs. did you adopt the dog with ingrained habits that it has practiced for years? All of these things are factors too.

I have had to use VERY little compulsion on my white dog because I've mostly never made it possible for him to practice bad things (with the exception of his one deer chase, for which I take responsibility) 

Back to the lab---if I'd have fussed at them about how they had no business owning the dog, I think they would have quit speaking to me, quit boarding him with me, which he has really enjoyed, and I would never have been able to put the bug in their ear about the fence. Which for me is a prime example of why thinking/talking like that just isn't useful.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Flying is fun


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## Thecowboysgirl

Just to lighten the mood, folks


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## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> And for the 50th time, I have suggested prong collars to people. There is a difference between using them for an end, and not being able to control the dog without them.
> 
> I am really amazed at the number of people who truly believe that they would not be able to manage a dog without a training collar. Unbelievable.


Bud was a moose of a dog. WL all the way and possessed of clear head with a definite off switch. Remarkably chill in his crate or run and not given to outbursts at all. Impeccable obedience and while he could drag me a quick correction stopped nonsense. He never wore anything but a regular choke. At 95lbs and with a neck the size of my waist he had the strength to be impossible. But he wasnt.
Shadow is barely 50lbs. I refer to her as the Energizer Bunny on speed and she is most likely ASL pet stock. She has done permanent damage to my shoulder and wrist. She makes trainers look like monkeys. She can and will bite. She is possessed of no self control and stupid high drives. I likened walking her to being dragged by a truck and she is the only dog I have ever put a prong on. 
Your assesment of WLs is clearly skewed. And for that I am sorry. After 15 years as a working dog handler and 20 years in rescue with 10 of those being dedicated to GSDs I can state pretty definitively that I would take WL any day.
That said a dog is a dog and you need to be capable of assessing the dog in front of you and adjusting your comfort zone to suite that particular animal. 
To quote an old cowboy "There aint no horse that cant be rode, and there aint no rider that cant be throwed."
Just because you havent met that dog that you needed to change your ways for doesnt mean it isnt out there.


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## Thecowboysgirl

"There aint no horse that cant be rode, and there aint no rider that cant be throwed."

Love it


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## Sabis mom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "There aint no horse that cant be rode, and there aint no rider that cant be throwed."
> 
> Love it


Have it hanging on my wall. Had an old thoroughbred mare years ago who was a fan of keeping me humble. 
Retired show horse. Had a nasty habit of shimmying out from under you if you got cocky. No bucking just sitting in the dirt rubbing your butt wondering what the heck just happened. With her standing there looking at you saying gonna get smart again stupid?


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## Hineni7

I will just throw in that when u say a working dog I don't necessarily mean just WL GSD'S - it goes for any dog with a job. However, since we are a gsd forum it definitely includes good WL and bad WL as well as show of any kind and by, American line etc. All encompassing.


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## Heartandsoul

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Flying is fun


Oh my word! A wingless flying canine Pegasus!:grin2: just beautiful.

Well, the way I see it, how can anyone be absolute certain that they have 100% control of their dog since the dog hasn't yet lived 100% of his /her life. You may be able to say it about past dogs but not the one you have now. It is a mathematical impossibility. 

My boy wears the prong. Learned how to use it and worked on his reactivity. Rarely need it now and maybe one day I'll feel confident in our training to say he doesn't seem to need it at all. But that doesn't mean I'm going to not walk him with it on. I wouldnt go ripping out my cars emergency brake either.

Oh, as for our training, proofed my boy with voice control only when he did dash the door to get to the mailman. Shocked the heck out of me because I never had an opportunity to proof the stop command under that scenario. I proof open door all the time. 

That's just my two cents that I'm not giving to anyone.


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## dogma13

We're just going around in circles and people are getting frustrated and snarky at this point so time to move on folks.


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