# E-Collar Malfunction? Or Sensitive Dog?



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax reacts strongly at a stim level of 0, not yelping but jerks her head and comes running to my side. Should she feel anything at that level? Does that mean the collar is malfunctioning? Where would I go to have it checked?

It's a Dogtra with 100 levels. I can't feel anything until 18. So, is she just very sensitive to it?


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

My Jax also seems to react stronly... I'm begining to think they're just hyper-sensitive. I can have it up to 7 and our lab doesn't flinch... you can see her eyeballs move so you know it's working... if I had tha on Jax that high, he'd be dead from a dramatic attack. 
I've tested it on myself many many times so I know he's just being overly dramatic.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why is a dog a better conductor than a human!? I just can't get my brain wrapped around the idea that a dog can feel it but a person can't. Maybe it's in the name! 

So, what level do you use on your Jax?


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I use the lowest setting on Jax and wish there was a higher than highest setting for Sadie. LOL
For a while I felt bad that perhaps there is an underlying condition that perhaps I wasn't aware of but through several experiences have decided that he's just a pansy... I once nudged him because I dropped a towel on the floor and knew he'd go for it so I nudged him with my leg... he went into the side of the stairs and started *screaming* and hobbled over to the dining room table for cover and continued screaming from there... I thought for sure I broke his hip and started yelling for my BF to come down and call 911 or something. I got on the floor, he crawled over to me on 3 legs, still screaming at the top of his lungs for a full minute before my BF made his way down (apparently this type of commotion warranted him putting on pants before coming down), as soon as he got to the bottom of the stairs, Jax popped up to greet him like *nothing* happened  
The same thing happened at the park once when he got popped by another dog's flexi handle... the owner felt awful LOL
I've never seen a bigger drama queen in all of my life than this dog... yet he's completely fearless in almost all situations. I can't explain it. People ask me if he's been abused, I ask them if they could abuse a dog that reacted this way? I'd have to kill myself out of guilt LOL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

rofl...omg...

Because I'm me...I'll research why dogs are more sensitive to the stim later. At 18, it felt like a static charge to me but it sends her yelping and running for me to protect her.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs feel thunderstorms/static electricity in the air and we don't. They also feel the barometric pressure in a more sensitive way than humans.
Their hearing/olfactory senses are much more extreme than ours. I can see why they would feel a stim at a much lower level than human.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jane - do you have articles explaining why?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

None specific, just do search on static electricity and dogs, barometric pressure/dogs~ several links show, though getting scientific information may take deeper digging.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I can help with some of the science for you basically the collar has a step-down transformer on its side and when the collar touches the dog it then completes a circuit which when activated transmits the voltage to the dog via the the impedance of the dogs skin. The impedance of a dogs skin is typically betwteen 1500 ohms and 5000 ohms. SO if your dog has has a lot of wet skin this can change the amount of shock it receives. Conversely the dog can be that sensitive since they are more prone to pulmonary edema when they get a shock from say chewing on a household appliance cord.

One way you can check if your collar is bad is find a friend who has a multimeter and have them measure the voltage at the end of the collar probes when you press the button to send the shock signal.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So what is the impedance of a human's skin? Why can they feel what we can't? 

When I first set the level, it was 20 but we were inside where it is very dry. Outside, 20 will send her yelping for cover, i.e. behind me. So, her working level outside is much, much lower than inside, and I'm assuming due to the increased moisture.

Now I'm wondering how that feels on her at zero if she can feel what we can't. Obviously, we can't go by what it feels like to us if it's amplified for them.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

And can someone explain why my lab would just shrug and barely acknowledge it while my GSD has a nervous breakdown at the same level?


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Our skin has a higher impedance so we take less current to feel the same voltage it goes to simple law called ohm's law which is V=IR where V is voltage and I is current and R is impedance.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think some dogs personality allows them to take a shock response and not be be bothered where others are more sensitive. An example is say you get scared at the thought of getting ready to go down a steep roller coasted but I get excited by the thought of the same roller coaster.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If we take less current to feel the same voltage, then why can dogs feel stim that we can't? That seems backwards to me.

And keep in mind when explaining this to me....I leave the electrical design to the electrical engineers and stick with the mechanical which I can fathom.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think I may have misstated what the collar does is provide a voltage of a certain level so say setting 0 is 1 volt if the dog has an impedance of 1500 ohms then the current it receives ate voltage level is 0.0006A. For us I believe the same calculation would provide 0.000001A. We both feel the shock from the current when it goes across our hearts. So the dog feels more current from the collar than we do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So they are feeling a higher level of current due to their lower impedance?


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Yes that is correct.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How does that affect their heart? If we only feel it when it's strong enough to cross our hearts, is it doing damage to their hearts when used on a regular basis?

And also, can their level of impedance change due to wet/dry atmospheric conditions? i.e. wet skin from the weather?


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

For both of us yes our impedance can change based on wet skin or salts in the skin from sweating or from drier compared wetter atmospheric conditions. For both of us it affects our heart by changing the rate of our heartbeat if we get enough of a current to shock us. 

For instance out body can build up a large charge and then when close the circuit with a ground point we get the old static discharge we can use to shock our friends with. Which is fun to do However while that is large voltage to create that arc it is an incredibly small current so it it may tingle but not hurt us. It is actually current that kills us or a dog not the voltage.


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## pache11 (Dec 20, 2010)

It also depends on the frequency of the electrical pulse. The lower the frequency the more deeply it travels through the body. High frequency pulses produce a skin effect where the current flows closer to the skin or along the skins surface. One would need to use an oscilloscope and correct load to view the waveform produced by the collar. Manufacturers do not disclose this information for reasons of propriety. Most likely used is a form of Pulse Width Modulation (PWM).

Moisture, oil content, electrolytes will all have an effect on the shock received. I can hold a standard 120v 60 Hz between my thumb and forefinger, and I can barely feel the current due to calluses and dry skin. I would not place this on my forearm or other more sensitive areas of my body as the reaction would be much more severe and if the current path crosses the heart could be fatal. The narrow probe distance of the e-collar limits the depth and extent of the current path. Try testing an e-collar on a more sensitive part of the body and the reaction varies. An example would be using a 9v battery on your finger vs. tongue. An abrasion or open sore also lowers resistance and increases the sensation.

Modern electronic collars sold in the US shift intensity levels by altering pulse duration or repetition rate instead of increasing current or voltage (Lindsay 2005, p. 571).

· Lindsay, Steven (2005), _The facts about modern electronic equipment_, Blackwell, pp. 557–633 .


When we ask why our dogs more readily feel these effects is akin to asking why a dog sense of smell is stronger or hearing. Their bodies are similar to ours, but have their nerves and body chemistry optimized for their environment. Sharks are so sensitive they can detect the electrical fields of the earth and other living creatures, and I would imagine that a collar impulse designed for our dogs would have a profoundly different effect on their behavior.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

szariksdad said:


> For both of us yes our impedance can change based on wet skin or salts in the skin from sweating or from drier compared wetter atmospheric conditions. For both of us it affects our heart by changing the rate of our heartbeat if we get enough of a current to shock us.
> 
> For instance out body can build up a large charge and then when close the circuit with a ground point we get the old static discharge we can use to shock our friends with. Which is fun to do However while that is large voltage to create that arc it is an incredibly small current so it it may tingle but not hurt us. It is actually current that kills us or a dog not the voltage.


So a current this low should not have any lasting effects on her? If she's feeling the stim at 0, I"m wondering if I need a collar with more levels for a finer adjustment for her. I think the higher end Dogtra's have more than 100.

I'm going to assume that the working level of 20 inside was based on how incredibly dry it is in our house in the winter. We can put 5 gallons of water in the air and my skin is still very dry. Outside, she was in the snow and running through mud to get her frisbee.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't know about lasting effect since it has been so long since I have done bio-engineering work to remember that part. You might want to get a multimeter from someone and measure for a known resistance how much voltage you get from the collar. This will tell you the amount of current and then research online what can be handled by dogs.


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## pache11 (Dec 20, 2010)

The difference in reaction is most likely due to tolerance and conditioning. Drive level will also be a factor, as most people using e-collars find that an increasing level is needed when dogs are excited to a higher state.

My 14mo female is much more reactive to stimuli then my 9yr old male. She is much softer when it comes to corrections and over dramatizes small events. I condition her to respond more neutrally to strange situations and help her to cope with stress. The 9yr old male is a retired police k9 and he has stronger nerves since birth and has been conditioned to handle high levels of stress and still perform. Most civilian dogs are not pushed to level of conditioning or training required for police or protection work. Just as Olympic athletes have a genetic/physical predisposition for greatness, they will have to train their bodies and control their impulses to reach greatness.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

szariksdad said:


> I don't know about lasting effect since it has been so long since I have done bio-engineering work to remember that part. You might want to get a multimeter from someone and measure for a known resistance how much voltage you get from the collar. This will tell you the amount of current and then research online what can be handled by dogs.


Lucky for me that I work with electrical engineers.  I'll shoot them an email and see if one has a multimeter. I'm actually wondering if my husband has one hidden in the basement! I thought I saw one around here once.


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## pache11 (Dec 20, 2010)

The waveform produced by the collars is not a simple dc or ac signal, and skin is not only a resistive load. 

A multimeter will not be fast enough to catch the peak voltage and current that is generated. My background is electrical engineering and I work with high-voltage/high-frequency design. I do not currently have an e-collar for testing. Multimeters measure average current and voltage and are not effective for higher frequency measurement. I have and oscilloscope that is capable of displaying the voltage waveforms, but I do not have the current probes. It is possible to calculate the current at a single point in the waveform, but much harder to model the current in a complex load such as skin and tissue. The skin and tissue are not just a simple resistive circuit and they have inductive and capacitive properties as well. In the design of high-frequency fluorescent lighting, it is standard practice to incorporate a GFI (ground fault interrupter) circuit to protect users from fatal shock. In order to evaluate the waveforms to protect users from shock, complex measuring equipment is required. High frequency digital oscilloscopes with high impedance voltage and current probes are used.

The average current and voltage measured with the multimeter will be much lower than the instantaneous voltage current felt by the neural receptors of our shepherds.


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## pache11 (Dec 20, 2010)

The multimeter is useful for checking the average level differences between collar settings and determining if a particular collar is operating safely in comparison with another known working collar of the same design.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> So a current this low should not have any lasting effects on her? If she's feeling the stim at 0, I"m wondering if I need a collar with more levels for a finer adjustment for her. I think the higher end Dogtra's have more than 100.
> 
> I'm going to assume that the working level of 20 inside was based on how incredibly dry it is in our house in the winter. We can put 5 gallons of water in the air and my skin is still very dry. Outside, she was in the snow and running through mud to get her frisbee.


Just wondering, which collar are you using?? I've had problems with Dogtra 200NCP Gold collars where it appears there's inconsistency in the stim at 20 or lower. As in.....dog feels nothing, raise it 1, nothing, raise it 1, no reaction, raise it one, YIKES!!!!! Lower it 1, STILL YIKES!!! I haven't had this problem with the more expensive Dogtra collars, only this low end one. I've talked to other trainers who experienced the same thing, so I no longer use that collar.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

why...it's a Dogtra 200NCP Gold!

Looks like I need to find a new collar!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Do you know anyone with other collars? Maybe you can try out another one before buying it? I tried out a tritronics collar on the same dog and it didn't bother her at all, and I also used a better model Dogtra and she was fine. But that 200 collar made her crazy. Fortunately she didn't really need e-collar training, I was just using a collar on that dog while taking a 5 day course. 

Tritronics and Dogtra have a different feel, one feels "spikier" than the other....has to do with what others here have mentioned, all that technical electrical engineering stuff that my dad (retired EE) has explained to me several times.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'll email my trainer and see what she has. I'm primarily "loading" the vibrate as a marker right now. It bothers me that she has such a reaction at level 0. To me that implies the stim at that level is to much but I can't go any lower!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I will say that when I've talked to people who sell the 200NCP collar, they all insist I'm imaging the stim inconsistency. But I've talked to several other end-users who have experienced the same thing! So I don't recommend that particular collar any more.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's not your imagination. Chris said Dogtra is aware of the problem and fixed their collar free of charge. I'll contact Dogtra about it.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Without a doubt, there is something wrong with your 200NCP. At 0, there should be no stim. Do you know anyone with a 1900 or better? They come with a tester, which works like a light bulb. You connect it to the prongs and when you apply stim, the tester lights up, and gets progressively brighter as you raise stim levels. At 0, the tester should not light up at all.

As far as dogs and humans feeling levels is concerned, it's not rocket science, as some would lead you to believe. As someone already mentioned, every one and every dog has different tolerances, it's as simple as that. Some people simply feel it at lower levels than their dogs, and some feel it at higher levels than their dogs.

I use Dogtra collars exclusively, because their rheostat adjuster allows precise stim levels, and I don't like shocking dogs. With collars like PetSafe, Innotek, Tri-tronics, etc., there is no finite adjustment, and more often than not, one level is too low and the next level is too high. With collars like these, you most often can train with negative corrections only, because there is no in between. Even if you're lucky and your dog barely feels, say level 2, level 3 can easily be too high. Rather than risk shocking a dog, I use good Dogtra models only. And, every owner I've ever trained with one agrees.

Most dogs I've worked with have a sweet spot between 18 and 24 in low to medium distraction areas. I've found that most humans first start feeling it between 11 and 19 (interestingly, women tend not to feel it at the lower end, presumably since they are capable of having babies, and I keel over at the though of passing a kidney stone), although a good male friend feels 3! What a wuss! 

Indoors and outdoors, is not a matter of environment (wet eather notwithstanding); it's more a matter of what the dog is doing. Typically, the level required indoors is lower due to lower distraction and the dog is more relaxed. With that said, when initially setting levels, I have experienced dogs falling asleep at levels up to 50, which is darned high. Presumably, this is because during this process you start low and work up slowly, and I suspect that because you can move up so gradually with the Dogtra line, their tolerance builds along with it, and it starts to feel good after awhile so they fall alseep. Similar to applying a TENS unit at physcial therapy. They gradually turn it up and finally set it at, let's say 20, on a human and you feel it, but after awhile you get densitized to it and they graudally turn it up and reset it it at, say, 30, and now I feel it again. I find myself falling asleep every time I've been on one. But, if they just set it at 20 without gradually turning it up to that level, it would definitely make my hair stand up!

But, the same dogs that fall asleep at 50 you can bet jump out of their skin if you use it at that level when you practice Heeling, for example. So, you have to be careful, and repeatedly test to find their base level before use, and be prepared to turn it down when you begin to use it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a tester! Somewhere! IN the box! Crap! I don't know where it is!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Really? As far as I know, the 200 series does not come with a tester. But, I can get you one, if you like. They're only $4.95. For such a small part, you might just want to buy one from Dogtra directly. ;-)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I had trouble with the battery and I'm pretty sure when they sent the replacement collar they sent a tester. I just have no idea what I did with the box!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> How does that affect their heart? If we only feel it when it's strong enough to cross our hearts, is it doing damage to their hearts when used on a regular basis?


 
For all practical purposes the stim from an Ecollar flows from one contact point to the other. It goes nowhere near the dog's heart.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

pache11 said:


> Modern electronic collars sold in the US shift intensity levels by altering pulse duration or repetition rate instead of increasing current or voltage (Lindsay 2005, p. 571).
> 
> · Lindsay, Steven (2005), The facts about modern electronic equipment, Blackwell, pp. 557–633.




Lindsay's generalization is incorrect. SOME Ecollars "shift intensity levels by altering pulse duration or repetition rate." SOME change current and SOME do both.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

szariksdad said:


> I don't know about lasting effect since it has been so long since I have done bio-engineering work to remember that part. You might want to get a multimeter from someone and measure for a known resistance how much voltage you get from the collar. This will tell you the amount of current and then research online what can be handled by dogs.


 
A multimeter is not going to be of much use when trying to measure the current an Ecollar puts out due to the pulsing nature of their electrical output. And there's more to how an Ecollar works than just voltage, amperage and resistance.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> why...it's a Dogtra 200NCP Gold!





Jax08 said:


> Looks like I need to find a new collar!




LOL. I was loath to go into this in detail because I thought it was off−topic. Now I realize that IT IS THE TOPIC. When this was first reported many people doubted it was happening. People thought that either the users were doing something wrong or that the collars were defective. Turns out that an EE (Electrical Engineer) Internet friend of mine put one of them on a test bench and discovered that there was a phenomenon that he called a "charging pulse" that fired an instant before the stim came. Some dogs, particularly those who were VERY sensitive to stim, could feel it and it was significantly higher than the lowest levels of stim that the Ecollar had. It's been so long that I've heard of this that I didn't recognize the symptoms as they were previously described. 

There are two fixes. One is to send it to Dogtra (you'll have to pay shipping) and ask for "The Special Lou Castle Fix." (There's no charge [pun intended] for the modification to the Ecollar). Although I had nothing to do with the fix, I was the one who communicated the issue to them so they stuck my name on it.  Basically they change some internal parts and your problem will be solved. 

There is an external fix that you can do. It involves a trip to Radio Shack, buying some parts from a supplied list and doing it yourself. PM me if you want the DIY version. 

Both fixes reduce the overall power of the collar by about 2/3. 

Nice thing about the DIY fix is that you can reverse it if you need to.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DunRingill said:


> I will say that when I've talked to people who sell the 200NCP collar, they all insist I'm imaging the stim inconsistency. But I've talked to several other end-users who have experienced the same thing! So I don't recommend that particular collar any more.


 
The problem was fixed. It existed only with the earliest of those units. They changed all of them after they started getting so many back "for repairs" or to have "The Special ... Fix" done on them. Now they've been phased out of the line and replaced by another unit that does not have the issue.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lou - would you suggest fixing the collar or just buying a new one? I'm just not comfortable using a collar that the stim is inconsistent on dog that is that sensitive to it. I hit the stim at level 0 and she hits my leg and won't leave. I'm really edging towards a new collar but if you think the fix is worth it, I'll do that.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Either fix (whether you do it or you have Dogtra do it) will only cost you a few bucks, either for postage to send the collar to Dogtra or the parts you need from Radio Shack. A new collar will cost about $200 (MSRP). I've never heard of anyone who did the fix themselves or had Dogtra do it, complain again. Also the later versions of this model (the ones made after they started incorporating the fix) did not have the issue. 

If it was me, especially in this economy, I'd do the fix. The major advantage to getting a new collar is that they now have an LCD readout of the stim level that you're on. That's especially nice for "repeatability." You can defray the cost of a new collar by putting your old 200 up on EBay.


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