# No harm right?



## ZeusTheGSD (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm trying a new strategy in to stopping my 15 week old puppy from biting which is when he bites my hand I shove it deep down his throat.

I've noticed this actually for the first time KIND Of works. I have had NOTHING come close to working as well as this next to completely redirecting him.

He tends to gag a bit, as I hold his neck and shove my hand to the back of his throat, he continue to bite a bit and move his tongue on my hand to position it back into a biting position. As I don't let him I slowly let go of his neck and he takes it out looks on the ground and starts gagging he starts licking my hand abit and then he switches hands. 

It came to the point where it was just simply he was getting excited so I just left him a lone I didnt want to keep putting my hand in his throat.

Has anyone ever tried this and does this harm him in anyway? he looked completely fine.

Would things like this make my dog lose trust in me, I know respect and trust is two things that you must earn with your dog and I dont want something as little as stopping his biting to screw this up.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I've used the gag technique on really bite-y foster pups before. They've never had any psychological (or physiological) damage. I just use a single finger, though, and immediately pull out my hand. If you're shoving your hand all the way back you may well be doing damage, I don't know. It doesn't take much to hit the gag reflex. With puppies it is important to include redirection to an appropriate play object; gag alone won't solve your problem. Remove your hand, allow the gag, and immediately show him a toy object. For some reason I've had better success with fuzzy toys as hand-nomming replacements.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

I personally would not do this on a 15 week old puppy....


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I DO think you can harm a 15 week old puppy doing that. It's not 'training' either, it's a major correction.

For a puppy that just wants to play. Be like having your child come to you wanting to play with you and you choke them (just a little) until they stop asking you to play. Little bit of over kill for a behavior that is NORMAL and one we want for our dogs.

You have a chance to look at all the better methods recommend to modify and better manage the situation? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/134407-teaching-bite-inhibition.html

We WANT our pups to want to play with us, but until we TEACH them a new way to play (not gag them silly for wanting to be with us for some fun) that is less painful, they only know the biting and it worked with their mom and littermates.

One of our many jobs it to TEACH our pups what we want rather than just continuously punishing for them doing something WRONG. So managing a situation by giving them REAL exercise to tire them out. Having tug toys all over the house readily available to grab. And spending the time sitting on the ground TEACHING them the way we want them to play is much better.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Yes, it is a major correction. If you have nails it can perforate the tissues in your dog's mouth and throat. I wouldn't use it for dogs intended for a sleeve or bite work, but I have used it on pet dogs with successful results. Just to clarify my input. I'm not a monster, lol.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Ughhhh. All it takes is a little patience and time. Spirit was terrible when I first got him, I still have marks on my arms and hands. But I've consistently redirected him without any harshness whatsoever. The worst he's received from me is a loud OUCH. 

I want my dog to know that only good things come to him from my hands, never fear. Anytime I lay a hand on either of my dogs, I always stop to consider if this is something I would want someone else to do to me ... if not, I don't do it. Dogs deserve a fair level of respect, especially a 15-week old puppy, it's just a baby. 

Today, I can put my hand in Spirit's mouth and he's very gentle, doesn't bite down at all. Sometimes still he will get carried away, he is still just a pup, but we're making progress. What I'm doing is working, I'll stick with it.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

ZeusTheGSD said:


> Would things like this make my dog lose trust in me, I know respect and trust is two things that you must earn with your dog and I dont want something as little as stopping his biting to screw this up.


.

If you're not sure you should use this technique, you should ask before you actually use it.

Yes, in my opinion this will cause your dog to lose trust in you. He's a baby, very impressionable. Be loving and kind, but firm and consistent ... those are your best tools for training, even with biting.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

OK, I'm going to defer to everybody else at this point because I'm not an expert. My experience is that it worked fine for the few dogs I've 'resorted' to using it on. They had absolutely no negative effects and they in no way were ever afraid of my hands, of me, or of being touched in the mouth. Clearly my way of thinking is too oldschool and I need to update, I haven't had to use the gag method in years and now I will no longer use it with problem dogs.

I do, however, think that perhaps we aren't giving puppies enough credit. How many of us have accidentally stepped on a puppy's paw at some point? Are they scarred for life, never coming near our feet again? Not in my experience. They avoid our feet for 10 minutes and forget about the whole thing. My point here is just to say that you did not necessarily ruin your relationship with your puppy because of your choices. Just make whatever alterations to your methods that these other wise folk suggest and move on. Whatever 'damage' you may have done is done, so leave it in the past.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why not ball your hand into a fist? A fist is not as easy to grab a hold of as an open hand or finger. Also tell him, "no bite" or "Gentle with my fingers." I do not shove things in my dogs mouth unless there is something in there that I have to get out (very rare). The pup is probably teething and your hands are as good as anything. Just redirect him and leave his throat alone. 

My niece was playing with the seven week old puppies and she showed me that they won't bite her fist, and she has little fists. I was using the fist technique with an eight month old in class tonight. She decided to be a little mouthy, and I wasn't going to give her a comfortable target. It really does work, and the dog chooses not to bite, you are not hitting the dog or shoving it into the dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

marbury said:


> I do, however, think that perhaps we aren't giving puppies enough credit. How many of us have accidentally stepped on a puppy's paw at some point? Are they scarred for life, never coming near our feet again? Not in my experience. They avoid our feet for 10 minutes and forget about the whole thing.


Well I had a dog that got his foot stuck in a radiator when he was a puppy, he NEVER let anyone ever touch his paw again after that. If you asked him for his paw, he hid them under him. He never got over it, so I know they don't forget.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Well I had a dog that got his foot stuck in a radiator when he was a puppy, he NEVER let anyone ever touch his paw again after that. If you asked him for his paw, he hid them under him. He never got over it, so I know they don't forget.


Did you follow that up with a good regimen of reconditioning? Because if he had no positive experiences associated than of course he isn't going to 'get over' anything. That's the (far more important) other half of overcoming fear in training, from what I understand from books and this forum.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

marbury said:


> Did you follow that up with a good regimen of reconditioning? Because if he had no positive experiences associated than of course he isn't going to 'get over' anything. That's the (far more important) other half of overcoming fear in training, from what I understand from books and this forum.


I did everything possible with this particular dog, I got him to the point that he would give his paw, but take it right back and hide it. He was a wonderful dog, but he did remember.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when my pup nipped i use to pull him back (gently) by some
neck fur and say "no biting". then i would rub his mouth.
if he nipped i would pull him back again. if he didn't nip
when i rubbed his mouth i would pet and praise him.
i don't think my method worked. i think he grew out
of the nipping stage.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I did everything possible with this particular dog, I got him to the point that he would give his paw, but take it right back and hide it. He was a wonderful dog, but he did remember.


Aww, I'm so glad he was able to move on from it a bit! He sounds sweet. 

I guess I've just been lucky enough to have a long string of pups that didn't seem to mind these sorts of things, lol. I've opened a door more than once on little puppy paws, and if I had a nickel for every pet gate or expen my dogs have knocked over on themselves I'd have a whole twenty cents. That's actually a big reason why I'll never trust myself with small dogs! :laugh:

I suppose I just don't have enough experience with dogs who aren't as 'nervy'... if that makes sense. Dogs that are more sensitive, I suppose. I've never been known for being particularly sensitive, lol. I shall add that to my list of things to improve on with time!


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## ZeusTheGSD (Jun 14, 2012)

If you guys are wondering, My hand is usually touching the back of his throat yet he refuses to let go of my hand. I make sure I'm NEVER pressing pressure against it or having anything hurt the back of his neck (nails) I just want him to be in discomfort.

It doesn't seem that effective considering he just tries a different hand since he knows this one causes him to gag. 

I'll definitely look into other strategies, but this is probably the 10th one that hasn't worked 100%.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

My dog was very mouthy as a pup and like the other poster I still have scars, but eventually he grew out of that and he's just a total sweetheart now going on four years. It helps to have a healthy dose of patience.


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

Well, Rocco is still mouthy at times, but much, much less then when he was a puppy. One thing we would do is grab his tongue (not hard). He didn't like that and would let go of our hand immediately. It didn't stop him from trying it again, though. I think he just started growing out of it. 

You can try the bitter apple spray. It worked with Rocco at training; we just never used it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I have to admit, I don't like the fist in the throat thing. I know it seems like a good idea - hey, puppy doesn't like my hand in his mouth - but what I would be trying to instill in him instead is - hey, the bite can only have this much pressure.

I honestly believe that they have pointy little needle teeth for a reason, and part of this is to know when to let off the force of the bite. If you can communicate when the line crosses from fun to uncomfortable, I think this is ideal. 

It really depends on what you want from your puppy. If you don't mind the mouthing (like me) or if you absolutely won't allow it. Either way, he shouldn't be thinking that your fist is causing discomfort - he should be thinking that he doesn't want to cause you discomfort.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

CaliBoy said:


> My dog was very mouthy as a pup and like the other poster I still have scars, but eventually he grew out of that and he's just a total sweetheart now going on four years. It helps to have a healthy dose of patience.


 
Our now 4.5yo male GSd was a holy terror with biting as a puppy and I too have the scars to prove it. He still is "mouthy" to us at times and makes an outsider think he is biting but now with no pressure.

In fact I even trust him enough to let him take a 1" dog buscuit from between my lips!!!!! great show when we have folks over to visit when they see him do that!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeusTheGSD , I think we would all agree your method will work to stop the biting.

Our point is why use THAT method (a harsh correction for something we actually WANT, our pups to love our hands, want to play with us, want them to trust us). 

So what you THINK you are teaching, to stop biting, may work. No more biting. But the possible backlash to the lifetime RELATIONSHIP with your dog may be at risk.

People that only look at training by seeing the end behavior they want are frequently missing the fact that the true important part is the journey to get to that end behavior. So you may get the 'no bite' using a harsh method. But wouldn't it be better for the puppy and the LIFETIME of training ahead to instead use this as just another training session with THE HUMAN actually learning how to teach and train.

Corrections are the easy way out as a training method. The smarter way takes longer because the puppy is a WILLING participant in the learning process, and can't wait to learn more, forever.

My first dog was trained with all corrections cause I didn't know what I was doing and it seemed to be working. But I've learned so much since then (hey look, I can be trained  ) and when I know better, I can do better. 

And each of my new dogs are benefiting from MY learning.

DID YOU BOTHER TO WATCH THOSE VIDEOS I have above? Why do you disagree with Michael Ellis and why won't this training help you?


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## ZeusTheGSD (Jun 14, 2012)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> ZeusTheGSD , I think we would all agree your method will work to stop the biting.
> 
> Our point is why use THAT method (a harsh correction for something we actually WANT, our pups to love our hands, want to play with us, want them to trust us).
> 
> ...


I have looked at the video very briefly and it seems more so to be about playing tug with your dog, nothing in regards to biting?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

marbury said:


> Did you follow that up with a good regimen of reconditioning? Because if he had no positive experiences associated than of course he isn't going to 'get over' anything. That's the (far more important) other half of overcoming fear in training, from what I understand from books and this forum.


 
An awful lot of what a dog "can get over" depends on the genetics (nerves!) of the dog. A thig that "scars" one dog could be forgotten in minutes by another.

Case in point - I had a 5mo GSD male puppy who was jumped by an Old English Sheepdog one day on a walk by their driveway. Got pretty scary for a little while there but no real damage to the pup.

Next day on our walk we go by the same house and the OES comes to the edge of their fence barking at us - no reaction on the part of our pup - no hiding or anything like that, still at the end of the leash!

Some pups might have been a basket case if that happened to them (from what a lot of people who have talked to me about their puppies being jumped by an older dog).

BTW, this puppy was from German top ScH parents!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

ZeusTheGSD said:


> I'll definitely look into other strategies, but this is probably the 10th one that hasn't worked 100%.


Sadly, nothing is going to be 100%. Your pup is just a baby. You are trying to build a foundation at this point, not the entire house.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

My Aussie puppy has been terribly mouthy, I just say ouch and remove myself from her. All fun stops when she uses her teeth on me. It took her some time to get the connection, but she did. I WANT bite inhibition because I have children. I want her to know when her teeth hurt people. That way she knows not to apply pressure when her mouth comes into contact with skin. Just because you can use such aversive corrections doesn't mean you should. Glory was also a very bitey puppy and that technique worked on her too. Nyxie pretty much had a soft bite from the get go, I just had to make sure she kept it that way.


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