# E-collar to me is CLEARLY being used WRONG here!



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

(Apologize for video, i could not find a better youtube of the episode scene!)

Just want to say, *I am not trying to put Cesar Millan down,* I think, like with all trainers. There are good and bad about his training style. In my own personal training stand point, i believe more bad than good with him. But he in himself-i do not think is a bad person..

I also want to clarify that *I believe in using e-collars, if used properly* and this video to me is just screaming to me how wrong it is! It seems to me that he just slapped the e-collar on, the dog is super confused as to what is going on and why he is getting those feelings, and who knows what level Cesar is using and its to the point of the dog hiding under something.. 

My main point is how its scary to think of how many people who watched this are now going to slap collars on their dogs and do the same, and see a similar if not worse response from their dogs and think its okay, because they watched Cesar Millan do it.. (And i feel bad for the dog in the video!)

Anyways, there is my rant. Enjoy and pick apart as you please.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That was difficult to watch.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Is he nuts? Relaxing? More like shock the heck out of your dog and make it scared of your cat. That was hard to watch.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Actually he is using the collar to make a behavior extinct, so there wasnt anything necessarily incorrect about his approach if he does not want to use the collar for anything else. Ofcourse there are associated risks with getting down and dirty with the collar right away, superstisious associations for one. However, in this case the dogs focus was intent enough on the cat that Id be comfortable saying he associated the stim with the cat.
I see a prey driven dog that wants to eat the cat. End result is the dog will likely associate cat with stim if he does another similar session or two and avoid it. Similar to snake avoidance training but worse since the dog has a lot of intensity for the kitty. 

Welcome to the world of dog training not all cases are pretty or easy to handle. Some of them look quite messy during the process due to the severity of the behaviors involved. A classic case of short term pain long term gain.

You cant throw a treat and a clicker at a case like that imo.

If you think that short clip was messy try cleaning up whats left of your pet cat after its been chewed on by a GSD.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You could fix it with a positive method but to get it done in fairly good time you would have to take it to a bit of an extreme. All feeding would be done during desensitization. You'd ask for a behavior from the dog like a long down or something (which of course you'd have to train first.) 

Start at threshold ask for the down or whatever and the dog gets paid to ignore the cat. If the dog fixates on the cat you give him a chance or two to correct the behavior and if he insists on fixation on the cat that's fine put him up and don't give him another chance to eat that day. Next day try again. He will be a little more receptive being hungry but if he screwed up then too again no food that day. A stubborn case might take a week or so but eventually hes going to get the point. The need for food will override his cat fixation behavior and he will start treating commands near that cat a ton more seriously if that is the only way he eats. You're essentially giving him a choice. Continue the behavior and go hungry or comply and eat. Won't take long before the dog consistently makes the choice that gets him paid, and then you can move him in closer. Not a super fast process but the process you're seeing isn't as quick as the show implies. 

We also don't know how long the e collar had been on and if pressure had been layered over the top before, but who knows.

I don't necessarily have issues with e collar blasting the dog for certain behaviors without layering pressure over it ahead of time. Jumping on counters or digging into the trash or something like that as long as you catch him the second he does it works fine. Especially if you caught the behavior in the first few times the dog tried it you could easily stop it from ever happening again.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I expected the video to be horrible and the dog being consistently tortured with some of the comments made..


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I dont think the competining motivators method would work well for when the dog runs into the cat and no immidiate supervision is present, or what if he is not hungry? Wheras the E Collar makes it about the cat and the dog (you hope) no third party. Its proven that a strong aversive is more likely to stick in LT memory so for this sort of thing Id prefer it. 
I think you can debate how he worked the dog with the collar (if he was actually using one) and set the whole situation up. I think that could have been done better.

Have run into several cat killer GSDs of late..seems to be common with this breed.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The what if he isn't hungry fallacy is the same thing the anti E collar people say about what happens if he isn't wearing the collar? What happens when you aren't around to give the ecollar blast? It is the same thing. A strong reinforced behavior is the same regardless of whether it came from a negative reinforcement or a positive reinforcement. You don't allow no supervision till you have a strong consistent behavior. It has been scientifically proven over and over again +R leads to faster learning and stronger behaviors.

Not judging whether it is better to use one or the other here. Just saying they both work (on most dogs) when done right. Pain is motivating. No doubt about it, but so is hunger.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

In case you were wondering btw. I would def be using some aversives in that situation. The reward for correct behavior would definitely be there though. Just saying it is possible to go without them.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

It would worry me that the behavior he wanting can only be accomplished by making the dog wear the e-collar. What is the owner going to do, leave the collar on all the time. First time the dog goes for the cat without the collar and realizes that he doesn't feel pain it will be the end of the cat's life.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

We don't know if it was introduced properly off screen or in the weeks before the show was filmed. It would be my hope that it was as Cesar has repeatedly advocated proper introduction of a dog to items that you intend to use as tools. If steps are taken to prevent the dog from becoming collar wise the dog will never associate the collar being on/off with the corrections. If those steps are not being taken then he doesn't have any business using those tools.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

"My main point is how its scary to think of how many people who watched this are now going to slap collars on their dogs and do the same, and see a similar if not worse response from their dogs and think its okay, because they watched Cesar Millan do it.. (And i feel bad for the dog in the video!)"

Cesar Millan has thousands of fans, millions of people have watched him.. If this is the best he can show people how to train a dog to lower its prey drive for a cat.. Than that is just plain sad!! SOO Many things can go wrong in this situation. And most people probably won't be able to manage doing this approach correctly, i am sure i wouldn't be able to!

And on top of that, my dog has the SAME reaction to cats as this dog, and yes its very scary. And i am not going to do that approach, just because its easiest. Right now It's management until i can get my e-collar, and than I am going to work Zelda on the lowest stim possible, about a football field away from a cat. I actually am going to do Lou Castle method of training with e-collar, because i find his makes the most sense and its absolutely humane. He has a great website/forums. Ya sure, this will take longer.. But if it doesn't mean compromising our relationship or getting into more trouble later down the road than its worth it to me. I have tried many other things, and they have not worked.. Treats and click (positive reinforcement for ignoring cat), counter conditioning, redirecting, time outs, making the cat "mine", etc. 

Further more, i will never trust Zelda in a room by herself with a cat- even after a big change in her cat prey drive.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ah that is certainly possible. My main hope is that if they buy a 150-200 dollar e collar they at least read the basic instruction manual before using it. 

You have to expose those guys early as little puppies to that kind of thing if possible and then it just takes little corrections or is easily redirected onto something else. So much in training can be avoided with an ounce of prevention early on in the puppies development.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Unfortunately, there are $40 e-collars with decent reviews on amazon..
I actually know someone who put e-collar on her GSD, because it was going after their chickens and cats. And she gave it a warning and than did a high level stim, same with when her dog chased her tail. Her e-collar broke soon after, she got one of the cheap ones. She suggested this method to me, as it did work with her dog..
I am aiming for dogtra 1900, it seems to have good reviews and i like that it has a high number of different stim levels. I believe 127 levels? it is quite pricey though.. But should last a while!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> "My main point is how its scary to think of how many people who watched this are now going to slap collars on their dogs and do the same, and see a similar if not worse response from their dogs and think its okay, because they watched Cesar Millan do it.. (And i feel bad for the dog in the video!)"
> 
> Cesar Millan has thousands of fans, millions of people have watched him.. If this is the best he can show people how to train a dog to lower its prey drive for a cat.. Than that is just plain sad!! SOO Many things can go wrong in this situation. And most people probably won't be able to manage doing this approach correctly, i am sure i wouldn't be able to!


well it is a tv show and not a training video. there is a disclaimer before every show to not try this at home without consulting a professional or whatever it says. if you want to know how to properly use a ecollar then buy a training video. if you want drama then watch a tv show.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

We have an ecollar. My oldest dog has issues staying in the yard. Sometimes he does and other times he bolts around the neighborhood. Most of the time he has great recall, but when he's bolting around the neighborhood it's like his brain turns off. 

Anyway, after trying every training technique and him almost getting hit by a car my husband got the ecollar. I was against it. We set it at a low level and tested it on us first. It beeps before "shocking". There is also a beep only button. We only had to use the "shock" twice. After that the beep is all he needs and when he hears the beep he runs into the house, no hesitation. However, he still tries to leave the yard and he only listens and comes back if he is wearing the ecollar and hears the beep. 

IMO he basically learned he only needs to behave with that collar on.....but it keeps him in the yard.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah in that situation the warning beep ahead of the shock does not help you it hindered because it became a conditioned stimulus. One you can't reproduce without the collar on. If you took steps to prevent the dog from becoming receiver wise or collar wise and then paired the correction with a word all you would need to do is say that word.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think that before criticizing something like this, you really need to experience the situation - to give you an appreciation for what you're dealing with. I once had a dog living with me who I'd taken in as a stray. She was a lovely border collie who got along well with my housecats. One day a neighbor's cat was in my yard when I let my dogs out. What a transformation - she made a beeline for the cat and killed it in seconds. It was a horrific and gruesome thing to watch. There was no getting through to her either, she was completely obsessed and in another world altogether. I've never used an e collar, so I can't comment on that. But I think I'd rather have tried that than major compulsion with this dog - really, there'd be no other alternative. Obviously I'm not going to say the dog went 'insane' when she saw the cat, it was her high prey drive. But for someone who didn't know any better, then yes, insanity would be a great explanation. You have to see this in real life, firsthand, to know what it's like. Crazy.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

this is what an ecollar can do! btw cats are bullies anyways. they remind me of an evil queen always sitting on her throne bullying the peasants.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

collars with the vibrate function is much much better than one with the beep function. the beep function is counter productive. the collar should be associated with a negative word like no. it shouldnt be associated with a beep.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I think that before criticizing something like this, you really need to experience the situation - to give you an appreciation for what you're dealing with. I once had a dog living with me who I'd taken in as a stray. She was a lovely border collie who got along well with my housecats. One day a neighbor's cat was in my yard when I let my dogs out. What a transformation - she made a beeline for the cat and killed it in seconds. It was a horrific and gruesome thing to watch. There was no getting through to her either, she was completely obsessed and in another world altogether. I've never used an e collar, so I can't comment on that. But I think I'd rather have tried that than major compulsion with this dog - really, there'd be no other alternative. Obviously I'm not going to say the dog went 'insane' when she saw the cat, it was her high prey drive. But for someone who didn't know any better, then yes, insanity would be a great explanation. You have to see this in real life, firsthand, to know what it's like. Crazy.


You're on a GSD forum. I think it is fair to say a fair number of us have seen prey drive in action before.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes, I'd like to think so. But there's lots of members with their first dogs here too. And I've had 4 GSDs myself, and never seen anything like this outside of the border collie. It's really something, and just because you have a GSD doesn't mean you have a dog with high prey drive.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

True. Mine is half malinois and made his first (and so far only) kill when I wasn't looking on a young duck at the ripe old age of 15 weeks ha ha. Not my proudest moment. He paraded it around just out of reach of me and then gobbled it down at the first sign I was taking a step his way. They are predators for sure.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Big time. I feel bad for the owners when it happens and they're shocked, and think they have serious killers on their hands. It's definitely eye-opening, lol.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

House cats are the same way though. If you've ever seen cute kittens go after a rabbit skin they turn into little lions. The behavior change is so abrupt if you have never seen it you're horrified.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> And on top of that, *my dog has the SAME reaction to cats as this dog, and yes its very scary.* And i am not going to do that approach, just because its easiest. Right now It's management until i can get my e-collar, and than I am going to work Zelda on the lowest stim possible, about a football field away from a cat. I actually am going to do Lou Castle method of training with e-collar, because i find his makes the most sense and its absolutely humane. He has a great website/forums. Ya sure, this will take longer.. But if it doesn't mean compromising our relationship or getting into more trouble later down the road than its worth it to me. I have tried many other things, and they have not worked.. Treats and click (positive reinforcement for ignoring cat), counter conditioning, redirecting, time outs, making the cat "mine", etc.
> 
> Further more, i will never trust Zelda in a room by herself with a cat- even after a big change in her cat prey drive.





Blanketback said:


> *I think that before criticizing something like this, you really need to experience the situation *- to give you an appreciation for what you're dealing with. I once had a dog living with me who I'd taken in as a stray. She was a lovely border collie who got along well with my housecats. One day a neighbor's cat was in my yard when I let my dogs out. What a transformation - she made a beeline for the cat and killed it in seconds. It was a horrific and gruesome thing to watch. There was no getting through to her either, she was completely obsessed and in another world altogether. I've never used an e collar, so I can't comment on that. But I think I'd rather have tried that than major compulsion with this dog - really, there'd be no other alternative. Obviously I'm not going to say the dog went 'insane' when she saw the cat, it was her high prey drive. But for someone who didn't know any better, then yes, insanity would be a great explanation. You have to see this in real life, firsthand, to know what it's like. Crazy.


Oh I am in the experiencing a high prey drive, as my dog as the same reaction if not to a higher degree for cats. It is scary and she is my first personal dog. I've had family dogs, i work at a shelter, and i've worked in at an animal hospital since i was in highschool.




Blanketback said:


> Yes, I'd like to think so. But there's lots of members with their first dogs here too. And I've had 4 GSDs myself, and never seen anything like this outside of the border collie. It's really something, and just because you have a GSD doesn't mean you have a dog with high prey drive.


There is a possibility of a person having their first GSD/dog and it having this intensity of prey drive for cats, because i am that person.. Thats why this video really stood out to me, because its like Zelda, but i wouldn't put her through that just because i don't want to make time to train her proper, and want an "easy fix".


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

All I can say is that it's pretty common for puppies to want to chase cats. And some cats (like mine) will encourage it. But some dogs are not just average run-of-the-mill, "this is really fun" cat chasers. Some will kill the cat on sight, and it's an awful thing to watch. Trust me on that. Good luck with Zelda


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i think the point is that some dogs are so neurotic with cats that positive methods are no use and you have to get down and dirty with the dog if you want to fix the problem. its naive to think that an ecollar is just an "easy fix".


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> All I can say is that it's pretty common for puppies to want to chase cats. And some cats (like mine) will encourage it. But some dogs are not just average run-of-the-mill, "this is really fun" cat chasers. S*ome will kill the cat on sight, and it's an awful thing to watch.* Trust me on that. Good luck with Zelda


I hope to God i will never have to watch my dog kill a cat. I would never forgive myself. She is on leash in the house, unless i have the cats safe in a room. And then she gets to be loose.



boomer11 said:


> i think the point is that some dogs are so neurotic with cats that positive methods are no use and you have to get down and dirty with the dog if you want to fix the problem. its naive to think that an ecollar is just an "easy fix".


I think its not true to say positive methods will not work.. I think you have to be under a certain threshold and work from there.. But i dont think i would be able to do it.. But i am sure there are trainers who can! Yes it is naive to think an ecollar will be an easy fix for that, its sad people think so.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are maybe dogs out there where positive only even with deprivation wouldn't be easily effective. Really really unmotivated for food dogs are out there. IMO these dogs would be dead in the wild, but you could say that for lots of domesticated animals out there so that isn't anything special. 

I don't know how much of an extreme things could be taken to and frankly I don't want to know to see if you could eventually get food deprivation to work on the dog. I mean realistically at some point the dog would fall over from exhaustion and just go for the easy food but if you got to that point you might as well have shocked the **** out of them. 

In any case I wouldn't think those dogs are normal although I have no doubt they probably exist. That's why when it comes to dog training there is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I've seen a dog do its best to kill a cat. I went into her mouth -- 3 year old working line bitch, and pulled the neighbor's kitten out. It died anyway. I felt bad about it. I took it to the neighbors before it died and apologized, but they said it was an outside cat, and stuff happens. I asked about it a week later and they told me it didn't make it.

I still thought that video was hard to watch and I would not use that method with a dog that will kill a cat given the opportunity. Incidently, this particular bitch when back to its owner after two years with me, and they had three inside cats, and she did not see them as prey animals.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> I think its not true to say positive methods will not work.. I think you have to be under a certain threshold and work from there.. But i dont think i would be able to do it.. But i am sure there are trainers who can! Yes it is naive to think an ecollar will be an easy fix for that, its sad people think so.


if you think positive methods can be used to fix every dog that you havent met the right dog. also what i mean is that its naive to think an ecollar is nothing more than an easy fix. sometimes training methods like the use of an ecollar is the only fix.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Boomer is right to a degree though. Sometimes you have to press the dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's also dependent on how you are too. I find it's very easy to teach things in the, "Good dog - this is right" way: going into the crate, housetraining, waiting at the door to be released, etc. etc. BUT with some things, like cat chasing, it's easier to communicate, "No- this is wrong" and the foot comes down. My puppy wasn't manhandled or anything, but the day he seemed to really zone out and was fixated on the cat - and was in serious jeopardy of losing an eye - he got a scruff shake. Didn't like it too much, but he had no problem equating the correction with his behavior, and ceased after that. He obviously was an easy case, since he only needed that one time reminder.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah some people haven't seen a level 10 prong a dog out of drive correction before. If you've never seen a correction given that way on a hard dog you'd be pretty unprepared for what you saw. Nevermind the e-collars.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Baillif said:


> There are maybe dogs out there where positive only even with deprivation wouldn't be easily effective. Really really unmotivated for food dogs are out there. IMO these dogs would be dead in the wild, but you could say that for lots of domesticated animals out there so that isn't anything special.
> 
> I don't know how much of an extreme things could be taken to and frankly I don't want to know to see if you could eventually get food deprivation to work on the dog. I mean realistically at some point the dog would fall over from exhaustion and just go for the easy food but if you got to that point you might as well have shocked the **** out of them.
> 
> In any case I wouldn't think those dogs are normal although I have no doubt they probably exist. *That's why when it comes to dog training there is more than one way to skin a cat*.


haha oh no thats bad..  Puns ^^



selzer said:


> I've seen a dog do its best to kill a cat. I went into her mouth -- 3 year old working line bitch, and pulled the neighbor's kitten out. It died anyway. I felt bad about it. I took it to the neighbors before it died and apologized, but they said it was an outside cat, and stuff happens. I asked about it a week later and they told me it didn't make it.
> 
> I still thought that video was hard to watch and I would not use that method with a dog that will kill a cat given the opportunity. Incidently, this particular bitch when back to its owner after two years with me, and they had three inside cats, and she did not see them as prey animals.


So the two years included you teaching her the cats were not prey? if so, how did you teach this? I know someoen suggested feeding them in the same room. Although Zelda wouldn't eat if a cat was in the same room, or even if she heard one.




boomer11 said:


> if you think positive methods can be used to fix every dog that you havent met the right dog.* also what i mean is that its naive to think an ecollar is nothing more than an easy fix. sometimes training methods like the use of an ecollar is the only fix*.


There are people who believe the ecollar is an easy fix, thus the person i was talking about and clearly after reading reviews of ecollars, it has been to them as well. So i think there are quite a few people who we can agree on are naive that ecollars are an easy fix, which it may seem that way in some cases.. as it gave the person the outcome they wanted with their dog. But in doing so, i believe it took away _their_ part of the relationship if you did it the way i see in the video- you took away your patience, time and your part for your dog. Because it was easier to do the secession of shocking a dog so much to the point of it being unsure or scared of the situation/cat. To me, making a dog scared should never be an option. I believe in respect, which is a lot different than fear. 
I respect your opinion, but i do not think the ecollar is the only training method for any case.. Not even the Zelda case. I do think that i am not the best trainer in the world and am going to use the tool to help me get her where i want her to be. But believe i found a very humane and well thought through pace of ecollar training, that will only further our relationship and communication. I think it depends on the person, commitment, and how much time you want to spend training. The Ecollar is just a tool.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Making a behavior extinct is probably the easiest thing to do with an e collar. As for starving the dog till it selects food over the cat you might as well shock the crap out of it..probably a lot less stressful for the dog even then i doubt whether this would work on its own. I do not believe exclusively positive methods will ever address a problem like this with and consistent degree of success. Posative methods are great for making behaviors more likely. Aversives are better for making them less likely. Some people choose to manage the problem others choose to address the problem..its all about what you want to live with in the end.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

My dog tries to kill my cats. I use an e collar/prong and LOTS of desensitizing on both parts. 

My dog is learning the cats are not prey. And my cats are learning they cannot run from him. 

It's hard. I will stim my dog if he isn't obeying my leave it command or focus command. NO reason to stim a dog THAT hard cause IMO the dog will be completely freaked out of cats. I couldn't bring myself to stim a dog that hard. And yeah what happens once the collars off? Using a combination of trains methods works best for things like this. I want my pets to get along not both be scared of each other. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Blitz, If I hadn't seen it work before in fairly short order (and lots of cases of it) I would agree with you.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> i think the point is that some dogs are so neurotic with cats that positive methods are no use and you have to get down and dirty with the dog if you want to fix the problem. its naive to think that an ecollar is just an "easy fix".


Sometimes you have to use corrections. If the reward is of higher value than the distraction, you can use positive methods for DS/CC. If the distraction is of higher value than you can make the reward, you have no choice but to use a correction. Whenever you have competing motivators, the higher motivator has to be used. If +R (positive reward) doesn't work, all that is left that can possibly compete is +P (positive punishment). The important thing, to me, is how this punishment is applied.

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah there are def some behaviors too that are really not fixable by positive methods or at least I wouldn't want to see it attempted. For example the malinois tendency to take a shot at your crotch at random for seemingly no reason. Quickest way to fix that is a real quick aversive response. I'm not sure how you would go about getting them to not bite the crotch for cookies.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Yeah some people haven't seen a level 10 prong a dog out of drive correction before. If you've never seen a correction given that way on a hard dog you'd be pretty unprepared for what you saw. Nevermind the e-collars.


An anecdote from Fama.

Fama was infamous for punking people out. She also would go into drive when getting into vehicles, especially those with loud hydraulic ramps or doors on the rear. The sound of the door opening would instantly spin her up, resulting in barking, prancing, and the tendency to pressure bite whoever was closest to the back door when she entered the vehicle. Because of this, I was in the habit of throwing her muzzle on when she was getting in the truck.

We had been working on being calm before entering the vehicle and I was having her immediately turn to the rear of the vehicle for a food reward upon jumping in, shifting her focus to me instead of her redirecting on the people in the truck.

Along came a situation where we had to run to catch up to the convoy and get into a vehicle immediately. There was no time for calming or to put her muzzle on. I had her on a prong / DD collar combo. The truck was missing the back steps so she had to jump up into the crew compartment from the ground. Because the truck was on a hill, it was about a 5 foot leap. I backed her up and have the jump command. She flew into the truck and bit the first guy she came to.

I gave her a level 10 correction that flipped her backwards out of the truck onto the ground. She popped right up looking at me, no sign of stress or fear. I repeated the jump command and she did it right this time, even with the guy she just bit screaming in the crew compartment. She never bit anyone else.

Right dog, right time, right correction. You do the same thing with Marshall my lab, and it would crush him forever.

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup catch the behavior the first time it happens and nail em good for it odds of ever having to repeat it are low. It is one of those cases where you have to know your dog. It's also why I prefer the hard ones. Harder to overdo it on accident. I'm also partial for the bite first ask questions later type. Fama sounds like fun.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I love pushy, hard, jerk dogs. I guess we match up LOL.

Fama was a blast! The perfect partner for me.

David Winners


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

VTGirlT said:


> So the two years included you teaching her the cats were not prey? if so, how did you teach this? I know someoen suggested feeding them in the same room. Although Zelda wouldn't eat if a cat was in the same room, or even if she heard one.


Nope, she lived with cats with my brother before she came to me, and I don't have cats, so, she had no cats here. My brother had 3 cats when she moved back in with him. His new BF had an older cat, and he got two more before buying the house and getting Jazzy back. Jazz did not know the inside cats before going back to my brother. She knew the difference between a marauding outdoor trespassing cat, and and indoor pet I guess. 

I did nothing to train her to stay away from cats. I think I had an outdoor cat at the time, that I was feeding, but there was no problem between them, probably no contact.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I hate seeing something like this.

There are humane low stim methods (Lou Castle) that work well and this does not look like a dog that needed such a harsh approach. They are going to make it terrified of the cat or freak the dog out so much it redirects.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

One way to make this easier to watch is turn the sound off. 

The noise of this dog and cat is freaky anyways minus the e collar.

The echo in the room makes it worse.

The tension in the house has built up over time and it hard to deal with i would think in that environment.

I'd like to see the whole episode to see if he did get the animals to get along. I wouldn't think that method would work really as the cat is totally not relaxed and the dog is being triggered into prey drive to much by the cat. Way to much excitement there to have control over either animal.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Here is the episode so any one can watch the complete section with this dog Spike. Turned out Cesar did have some success in getting both animals to be in the same room and remaining relaxed.

People can draw their own conclusions on the episode anyways. Looks like a nice dog.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Baillif said:


> There are maybe dogs out there where positive only even with deprivation wouldn't be easily effective. Really really unmotivated for food dogs are out there. IMO these dogs would be dead in the wild, but you could say that for lots of domesticated animals out there so that isn't anything special.
> 
> I don't know how much of an extreme things could be taken to and frankly I don't want to know to see if you could eventually get food deprivation to work on the dog. I mean realistically at some point the dog would fall over from exhaustion and just go for the easy food but if you got to that point you might as well have shocked the **** out of them.
> 
> In any case I wouldn't think those dogs are normal although I have no doubt they probably exist. That's why when it comes to dog training there is more than one way to skin a cat.


Eko is not food motivated at ALL. He spits out treats and he has been to the vet a couple of times for not eating, he is completely healthy just isn't crazy about food. He eats to live that is about it. He also chases my cat, I have to hold on to him or stand in front of him when my cat jumps up on the kitchen table (only safe place inside for him to eat) or Eko will grab him in mid jump and throw him back down to the ground and corner him. Eko will not take food of any kind when the cat is inside, I've even tried people food, nothing. 

He is sensitive to praise, even when he is pretty worked up if I say NO he will stop in his tracks long enough for me to grab him. He gets very excited when he is praised so I try doing that or giving him a toy, that's kind of worked so far. Basically he will stop but barely, he still wiggles and stands up or jumps forward and backward to out of excitement, I think. 

I hate using the prong on him anymore, he is very dramatic and even the slightest discomfort makes him yelp like I'm killing him. Right now I am using a martingale and just either putting him away or putting him on leash when the cat is inside. Not very convenient but it's keeping them both safe, the last fight they had made my kitchen look like a murder scene.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> Eko is not food motivated at ALL. He spits out treats and he has been to the vet a couple of times for not eating, he is completely healthy just isn't crazy about food. He eats to live that is about it. He also chases my cat, I have to hold on to him or stand in front of him when my cat jumps up on the kitchen table (only safe place inside for him to eat) or Eko will grab him in mid jump and throw him back down to the ground and corner him. Eko will not take food of any kind when the cat is inside, I've even tried people food, nothing.
> 
> He is sensitive to praise, even when he is pretty worked up if I say NO he will stop in his tracks long enough for me to grab him. He gets very excited when he is praised so I try doing that or giving him a toy, that's kind of worked so far. Basically he will stop but barely, he still wiggles and stands up or jumps forward and backward to out of excitement, I think.
> 
> I hate using the prong on him anymore, he is very dramatic and even the slightest discomfort makes him yelp like I'm killing him. Right now I am using a martingale and just either putting him away or putting him on leash when the cat is inside. Not very convenient but it's keeping them both safe, the last fight they had made my kitchen look like a murder scene.


This is going to be a huge training challenge even for a seasoned trainer. It would be walking a fine line reading the dog and applying the right motivation at the right time. 

I would either get somebody really experienced to guide you, make a safe zone to confine the cat or rehome the cat. JMHO

David Winners


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would agree with David. With Cyra, I was able to get obedience around our cats but never did I fully trust her. I juggled cats and dogs until my daughter took the cats (they were my daughter's in the first place but she was in college and moving around so I kept them for her, and Cyra had grown up with them but all our efforts, short of the Lou Castle method, did not work. Lou's method gave me control but I always knew she wanted to go for them)

Beau is slowly doing well with integrating new cats but the difference is he just wants to play and I see no desire to attack. That said, it is an easy situation to get out of hand so he is learning ground rules in the house with the cats and it may take me a month or more before I will trust him around them.

The difference is very observable.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There is so much stress, even after you have control. 

Nancy, did you notice a difference in the dog after the cat was rehomed?

David Winners


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

David Winners said:


> This is going to be a huge training challenge even for a seasoned trainer. It would be walking a fine line reading the dog and applying the right motivation at the right time.
> 
> I would either get somebody really experienced to guide you, make a safe zone to confine the cat or rehome the cat. JMHO
> 
> David Winners


That's why I was just putting him away when he came in to eat, he us an indoor/outdoor cat so he is only in a little bit at a time a few times a day. But it's wintertime and he wants to be in almost all day now. I'm thinking of putting up some gates so he has his place to relax, although he IS a cat, and he will go where he darn well pleases not much I can do to stop him, lol. He does prefer being up and out of the way though so I think that would work well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

David Winners said:


> There is so much stress, even after you have control.
> 
> Nancy, did you notice a difference in the dog after the cat was rehomed?
> 
> David Winners


Cyra ALWAYS wanted to hunt and kill small game. She needed occasional sessions with the ecollar to reminder her but the technique used left her clear in the head as it was very low stim at the time she was still thinking about starting the chase. But you could always see the initial pause then her cutting it off. The last years when she was not working I controlled her environment more than her since the cats were not with us and she made a habit of catching birds in low flight and we did not have the chipmunk problem we now have though I never saw her catch one of them or consume one.

I saw that same pause momentarily with Beau who wanted to take chase the cat, but corrected it the moment he stared at the cat. He is an entirely different dog. I think it was a triggering of prey drive that was easy to check and redirect.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

A couple of people have mentioned my way of dealing with this issue. Here's a link to the process. Game Chasing (Crittering)


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

Sookie, my 1 year old (super high drive, but super focused with all the energy if that makes sense?) used to act just as stimulated and focused on my cats as the dog in the video. It took over four months of multiple baby gates, Sookie on the leash in the house, treat/reward whenever she didn't lunge or "death stare", and constant supervision and hard work. But now she is off-leash around all 4 cats with no problems. I only share this because after a couple months without much visible progress I was ready to try anything including an e-collar but the more I thought about it (and I know this is a personal decision for everyone so I'm not being judgmental just explaining) the more I decided, hey - this dog is smart as ****, and she does all kinds of cool scentwork and agility and other obediance without it, so if I can't work this out without an e-collar then it's obviously me. So, anyway, kept at it, and lo and behold, the dog who I thought was going to eat my cats now just heaves a HUGE sigh when she sees Oilver-the-tabby drinking from her water bowl. Biggest victory in my life, and I swear working with her so intensely to get here has made our bond pretty special.


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