# Why the sloped backs?



## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Hi guys, I've always wondered why breeders started changing the backs from straight to sloped? Is there a purpose to that change or is it just for looks? What is it all about?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh I lost the thread?? Someone posted a cool photo of that! It's the way dog is "stacked" that accentuates that look! Maybe someone has it at hand?? It was very recent ... pretty cool actually!


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm sorry, why is there this idea that there is such a thing as a sloped back? It's impossible. Draw a straight line. It's straight. Now rotate it 10 degrees. It's still straight- but we're looking at it on a slope. 

The back is straight. The dog is stacked with one end lower than the other. The back is not sloped. It's impossible to have a sloped back. All you can have is a straight back that is not parallel with the horizon. 

You can have roach, you can have broken top line, you can have sway backs, you can have kyphosis. Or you can have a straight back.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Xeph posted some great comparison photos of the same dog standing four-square and stacked as illustration in another thread.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

marbury said:


> Xeph posted some great comparison photos of the same dog standing four-square and stacked as illustration in another thread.


Aww a lead ... all I needed! Not the photo I was thinking off but to the OP ... here you go:


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7780345-post2.html

I'll only add ... I guess some of us had "Sloped Backs" and did not even know it!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So stack can make a straight back appear sloped. But aren't some dogs sloped backs by default simply because the angulation of their rear hocks. Even if it is still a straight line it isn't level. Or is the angular rear legs just a pose also.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I believe the one I shared a couple days ago is the photo that chip is talking about



the slope has nothing to do with the back. Think of the stack as a body builder flexing during a competition. It's simply a way to allow the judge to evaluate the various proportions of the dog in regards to the standard.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Just to see a relative natural stance. Do you have a picture of this dog standing in his natural relaxed form? Thanks


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it's not my dog. but here is my boy in a "natural" stack.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

regardless of the terminology, we know what people are talking about.... showlines have a reputation for looking "crippled". the dogs pictured are the better examples when demonstrating a proper stack. but there are also dogs in a stack that are stretched to the max and there are also very loose, long limbed and angled dogs that are walking around outside of any show rings with their butts barely off the ground. they exist. so call it what you may but in order for a dog to be considered extreme - the original goal / aesthetic had to be there in the first place. the same goes for extreme drives and oversized dogs except it's not the working or pet markets that introduced the type of conformation that's been abused.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

lol. Mine is a mix of lines with some WGSL in her. When she is standing her back appears straight but when she is in motion in certain positions her back appears to have a little bump. She's got this thicker hair and muscle right behind her withers, between that and her croup - it makes it hard for me to see what her back is doing.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

I took extensive mathematics in college so I understand what a slope is very well. I'm not sure what the word would be then, but some of the backs are not straight and it has nothing to do with the way the stand. That's what I was asking about. Why are they like that? Why did show line breeders make this change and is there a purpose to it?


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

http://www.montepoliziano.it/foto/pastore-sieger-branko.jpg


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Agaribay805 said:


> I took extensive mathematics in college so I understand what a slope is very well. I'm not sure what the word would be then, but some of the backs are not straight and it has nothing to do with the way the stand. That's what I was asking about. Why are they like that? Why did show line breeders make this change and is there a purpose to it?


A breeder at my local club explained it to me, basically the showline breeders work toward rear angulation where one part of the back is slightly sloped but it isn't like the whole back is that way. She also explained when people talk about "sloped back/straight back" they generally have zero idea what they're talking about.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

@Niexist- the rear angulation, did your friend ever explain why they made that change?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Agaribay805 said:


> http://www.montepoliziano.it/foto/pastore-sieger-branko.jpg


That's what's referred to as a roached back. The spine may actually be curved or it's the way the dog is stacked. 
This helps to explain part of what you're asking about.
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I would like to see a comparison between the two body styles in these positions. 
View attachment 362145


View attachment 362153


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Whiteshepherds said:


> That's what's referred to as a roached back. The spine may actually be curved or it's the way the dog is stacked.
> This helps to explain part of what you're asking about.
> Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


Thanks for the link! Finally I can quench my curiosity!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> I believe the one I shared a couple days ago is the photo that chip is talking about
> 
> 
> 
> the slope has nothing to do with the back. Think of the stack as a body builder flexing during a competition. It's simply a way to allow the judge to evaluate the various proportions of the dog in regards to the standard.


Yep ...that's the one, thanks. :laugh2:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Agaribay805 said:


> @Niexist- the rear angulation, did your friend ever explain why they made that change?


The short version is when judges in conformation competitions began awarding highest honors to the dogs with extreme conformation.So it followed that breeders would strive for the winning appearance.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Agaribay805 said:


> @Niexist- the rear angulation, did your friend ever explain why they made that change?


the simple answer is "simple human nature" if a little is good, then more must be better. Some breeders have gone to extremes in what they produce. In show lines, that is too much angulation. But just as incorrect is those breeders who are producing square GSDs with little to no angulation. 

The human mind tends to get caught up in the idea of extremes. If a dog is meant to be big, let's make it bigger (king shepherds). If a dog is meant to be small, let's make it smaller (teacup everything).

Roach backs are mostly found in WGSL. Why? I really haven't heard anything that explains why.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

I saw a GSD being walked a month or two ago and it was ABSOLUTELY massive and I was wondering what was up with it.. It didn't look fat or anything, but compared to the working dogs I see at Schutzhund it was probably 2.5x the size/weight. It was literally the same size as a great dane.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

I read the link that WhiteShepherds posted and yeah, it basically also says that people just take everything to the extreme. If you read it, it explains a lot in detail. Sometimes they just have a slight slope due to the pose, sometimes handlers pose them really off giving them the look that they have extreme angulation and sometimes they really do have poor, sinking rear angulation. Interesting stuff…


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> the simple answer is "simple human nature" if a little is good, then more must be better. Some breeders have gone to extremes in what they produce. In show lines, that is too much angulation. But just as incorrect is those breeders who are producing square GSDs with little to no angulation.
> 
> The human mind tends to get caught up in the idea of extremes. If a dog is meant to be big, let's make it bigger (king shepherds). If a dog is meant to be small, let's make it smaller (teacup everything).
> 
> Roach backs are mostly found in WGSL. Why? I really haven't heard anything that explains why.


 

the answer is found in Ice Berg breeders http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


late 60's the monopoly of the SV's Martin brothers, one being von Wienerau , the other being von Arminius .


Canto was brought in because he had a good firm back --- lots and lots of other problems through his littermates and ancestry --- but a good back .


So he was used. And the powers that be , the two brothers ensured that there were winners . And so, 
inbreeding on this Canto and the progeny began .


Type was set. Colour was set . and a new virtually distinct breed , bereft of the soon to become 'working lines' , no blacks , no sables --- the sub group which we refer to as the WGSLs.


When you limit the breeding material to a small select group you cast the type and intensify the problems -- and the good -- but remember this started off with a flawed dog .


and another thread on this topic --- here is what happened when someone had the audacity to show a sable dog 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...76-apparently-i-have-cheaply-bred-dog-16.html


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> Roach backs are mostly found in WGSL. Why? I really haven't heard anything that explains why.


I've wondered that as well. I've been asked that question as an owner (not breeder or fancier) and haven't been able to explain it.

What I wonder is more, Why did someone think that looked good? Was it just all about the rear, to the exclusion of thoughtful consideration of the overall function and look of the dog? I don't know enough about conformation overall and how the different pieces of the dog work together.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> I believe the one I shared a couple days ago is the photo that chip is talking about
> 
> 
> 
> the slope has nothing to do with the back. Think of the stack as a body builder flexing during a competition. It's simply a way to allow the judge to evaluate the various proportions of the dog in regards to the standard.


Great explanation! Plus, I have seen the "so-called" "specialty" dogs with so much rear angulation, they look like they are in a pose all the time!! Sad....


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

One of my dogs free stacked









Same dog on the run


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## Jocel Louis (9 mo ago)

Everyone is dumb here SLOPED ONES ARE THE RUINED BREED AND THE STRAIGHT ONE WAS THE ORIGINAL BREED DISCOVER FROM 1890's


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

why are you yelling and insulting everyone. Please carry on the discussion with respect.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jocel Louis said:


> Everyone is dumb here SLOPED ONES ARE THE RUINED BREED AND THE STRAIGHT ONE WAS THE ORIGINAL BREED DISCOVER FROM 1890's


Show me a picture of a perfect GSD.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Show me a picture of a perfect GSD.












(Sorry, I had to LOL)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jocel Louis said:


> Everyone is dumb here SLOPED ONES ARE THE RUINED BREED AND THE STRAIGHT ONE WAS THE ORIGINAL BREED DISCOVER FROM 1890's


What do you think of the structure of this dog? Could it work or would it's sloped back hinder its performance?

And yes, I know she needs a sandwich in the first pic...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

This dog has a sloped back. Actually, it's NOT really sloped - it just appears that way, from how he's been stacked. His rear end has been pushed down, and his right hock is flexed to help lower his rear.

In addition to being a Excellent Select champion in conformation, and the sire of many champions (ROM), he also has a herding title. Yes, he herded sheep! Actually, he's a TC (Triple Champion) so he probably has an obedience or tracking championship as well!

So, tell me again how these slope backed dogs are ruining the breed.






Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's a picture of one of his daughters herding:






Brownhill-Kysarah's New Quest
 

Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Brownhill-Kysarah's New Quest




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

This thread shows how stacking a dog changes the slope of the back: Breeder Recommendations - "Straight-Backed" GSDs


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sunsilver said:


> Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes
> 
> 
> Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes
> ...


There’s a lot of Dallas in all my dogs pedigrees.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Star was a Dallas grand-daughter on her mom's side!


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...QtwJ6BAgKEAI&usg=AOvVaw2JkXwMNok72L0YRVAYC9pn[/URL]









GSDs at Crufts 2016: the continuing travesty


The above clip was all Channel 4 showed of the GSD in the Group judging at Crufts on television tonight. It was the only dog in the Gr...




pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com













Crufts ends in uproar at condition of german shepherd that won best of breed


Crufts in the doghouse over the condition of a prize-winning german shepherd.




i.stuff.co.nz










German Shepherd Dog | Breed Standards | The Kennel Club


This Breed Standard for the German Shepherd Dog is the guideline which describes its ideal characteristics, temperament, appearance and colour.




www.thekennelclub.org.uk





Unfortunately over in the UK show dogs were being breed to conform to looks alone with health and temperament coming second. There has been a huge outcry regarding the extreme features and impact on health some of these so called champion dogs. So much so the BBC made a documentary exposing pedigree dogs ( I can't find the documentary to post link) and the German shepherd was one of the dogs featured. The 2016 Class winner Cruaghaire Catoria, being used as an example of how much the shape of the German shepherd has changed and not for the better.

Apparently the kennel club are now supposed to be making changes to the way in which the dogs are breed and trying to revert back to the original shape and temperament of the gsd. However even now in 2022 there are still some being breed with the extreme angulation and poor temperament. I've witnessed a few of the above examples myself when I was searching for a gsd puppy to join our family.

I was brought up with German shepherds who were of sound temperament with no health issues. Personally I've never been a fan of the KC and preferred rescue dogs cross breeds or mongrels. When I decided I wanted a German shepherd I looked to buy for breeders who breed for health and temperament and not just how the dog looks or how many trophies were in there ancestory.
However even this isn't always achievable with the limited sound dogs. (My breeders words) She has been breeding for over 40 years for the police and not just gsd, labs, spaniels etc and decided to leave the KC as she was finding it hard to find sound dogs in terms of health and temperament. When she offered me my current dog she did say that he is nervous and unsure and that this will need to managed carefully so I didn't go in blind ( but wow he's been hard work 🤣). Out of his litter of eleven she said only two of the pups may be suitable to join the police. With the others showing nerves. And this litter was from working parents who were considered sound.

Now am not saying there aren't a lot of good breeders or sound dogs out there am only giving an example of my preference and limited experience with the pedigree dogs.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

that poor dog was as nervous as could be. No way it would stretch out and relax. When it came time to run it probably thought it was time to run out of the ring. No idea why anyone would show a dog that scared, especially televised.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

I found the original documentary 








Pedigree Dogs Exposed


Pedigree dogs are suffering from genetic diseases following years of inbreeding, an investigation has found.A BBC documentary says they are suffering acute problems because looks are emphasised o...




documentaryheaven.com


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I agree that pedigree dogs can have issues. But documentaries like these are getting viewer eyes by shocking people. Do they find the worst of the worst and announce that is is business as usual?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Catgsd kennel clubs are just registries and don't set any breed standards. In theory could a judge reject all of the dogs in the ring because none of them adhered to the written breed standard? Or must he/she choose whichever comes closest?Here is some more info for you to ponder.


carmspack said:


> answer is found in Ice Berg breeders Iceberg Breeders
> 
> 
> late 60's the monopoly of the SV's Martin brothers, one being von Wienerau , the other being von Arminius .
> ...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, that dog was horrible, a sorry excuse for a GSD.
But they aren't all like that.

Lockenhaus' Rumor Has It was the second GSD to take Best in Show at Westminister.

This is what she looks like when being gaited: Lockenhaus' Rumor Has It V Kenlyn
In a free stack, her back is almost level. If she was standing foursquare, it would be level: Lockenhaus' Rumor Has It V Kenlyn


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Lol, I wasn’t going to get pulled into this thread, but here you go. This is Scarlet. She is moderate. She rarely stands four square. She’s extremely agile and fast. She’s also an AKC champion.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Show dogs don't necessarily have to have good temperament, but it looks like Rumor does. She loved showing so much that she would get very excited when she saw Kent packing for a show:



> Retirement comes easy for some show dogs, but not for others. You can count Rumor in the latter group: For a solid six months after returning home to Edgerton, Wisconsin, after her 2017 Westminster Best in Show, breeder-owner Kent Boyles says his German Shepherd would “go out of her mind whenever I was packing my clothes or the truck.”
> 
> The only solution? Rumor rode shotgun to and from the shows.
> 
> Motherhood, thankfully, has made her more of a homebody. Rumor has had two litters since retiring from the ring. Boyles donated four puppies from her first litter of eight to a service-dog organization, with two of them going on to live with veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder.


]

It takes a very steady temperament for a dog to qualify as a service dog. I think it speaks highly of Rumor that two of her pups actually made it through the training.

Oh, and her hips are scored OFA Excellent.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I’ve seen Rumor in person. At ringside and in the ring. She’s a lovely dog. 

I’ve had 4 show dogs. 

Carly (AKC Ch) loved going to dog shows. She got bored in the ring though, so you had to play with her. 

Sage loved showing too, and a judge once said about her “that’s the silliest puppy I’ve ever seen”. 

Scarlet (AKC Ch) thinks showing is SO MUCH FUN. She goes into a ring like she owns it. 

Nora hates it. She started out fine (won points at her first show) but has progressively gotten skittery. She’s a very soft dog. She’s currently in a handling class and a beginning clicker class, all with a goal of getting her to show. Honestly if I didn’t co-own her, I’d reconsider showing her, but I’m stuck. She’s absolutely gorgeous, so it’s a shame. I have very good trainers, and we are actually making headway with Nora, so we’ll see.

I kinda veered off the subject.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

Getting back on topic, why ARE GSDs stacked to slope their hind ends? I don't follow dog shows like I used to but I don't believe I've seen any other breed made to do that staggered leg pose. Even other herding breeds.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> @Catgsd kennel clubs are just registries and don't set any breed standards. In theory could a judge reject all of the dogs in the ring because none of them adhered to the written breed standard? Or must he/she choose whichever comes closest?Here is some more info for you to ponder.


Have you watched the document link I sent regarding kennel club


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Catgsd said:


> Have you watched the document link I sent regarding kennel club


I saw it years ago, yes.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> Lol, I wasn’t going to get pulled into this thread, but here you go. This is Scarlet. She is moderate. She rarely stands four square. She’s extremely agile and fast. She’s also an AKC champion.


She’s lovely.😍🥰
Now show her stacked. People get confused because of stacking.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

When I was reading the new posts in this thread earlier today, I came across a link that talked about how the Swedish Kennel Club has laid down very strict rules for purebred dog registration. Hip and elbow x-rays are MANDATORY in certain breeds, and if your dog doesn't pass, you can't breed it. If the hips or elbows are so-so, you can only breed to a dog with better hips or elbows!

Can someone PLEASE find that link for me? I've spent the last 10 minutes searching for it!


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Yip Like I said I have very limited experience with pedigree dogs and breeding standards showing dogs or any other competition out with as all my dogs are pets but I do find the whole idea of dogs being bred for looks alone unsettling and have no idea why people find a gsd in stack appealing or would want to breed one that permanently looks that way. 

And not just shepherds other breeds with exaggerated features including brachycephalic breeds.

That was my point of the posting the links.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

This is Thor a few months ago.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Some people value form over function, for themselves too.It's a shame.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> Lol, I wasn’t going to get pulled into this thread, but here you go. This is Scarlet. She is moderate. She rarely stands four square. She’s extremely agile and fast. She’s also an AKC champion.


Plus she has a Wonder Woman thing on her head! Lol. She is so pretty.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> She’s lovely.
> Now show her stacked. People get confused because of stacking.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Plus she has a Wonder Woman thing on her head! Lol. She is so pretty.


LOL, plus she’s a super fun dog and very bold.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


>


See?💖
The stacking makes people think they are “sloped.”
They are not sloped.
Hans is built like a big ol’ bread truck— completely square, not much angulation at all. But stack him, and he looks completely different.

PS: I want to run my fingers though that beautiful black saddle of hers💕


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

But why? Why stack to make them looked sloped? What is the purpose? And like rabidwolfie asked is it just German shepherds that are stacked this way? I really love to know the reasoning behind it all to help me understand.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

GSDs have a natural stack when they alert with one back leg forward under the body and one kicked back a little. I'm not sure either why it's exaggerated in confirmation trials.It may harken back to the Cohen brothers.If you wanted to look back at winning dogs of past years that could tell you when it began to become a "thing".


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