# Debarking



## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

Seriously... why in the world would you get a dog if you don't expect it to bark? This just makes me sad and sooo fed up with the lazy inhumane ppl who do it! Barking is a dogs way of communicating, why on earth would you want to take that away from them if you truely loved dogs? If people took the time to train them there wouldn't be an issue! Declawing cats is bad and I can't stand that either but atleast they can still communicate with fellow cats and their owners. 

Ugh ppl make me sick sometimes...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't really like any alterations done out of convenience or aesthetics (voice box, claws, neuter, ears, dew claw...).


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## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

I can say we are guilty of getting Baya spayed but I would never ever even consider removing her ability to bark


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## JazzyGirl (May 25, 2009)

I think spaying and neutering is not merely a matter of convenience


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## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

I know for us it was the best option, I don't want to take any chances of her contributing to the over population of dogs, plus for her health I wouldn't want her to go through it. But thats just me.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Dew claws too - if you've ever watched the excruciating pain of a dog who's ripped his back thumb off (Gideon was a clutz), you'd take them off too.

Debarking-nope. First of all it's cruel to take the dog's voice away. Second of all, it's less expensive to learn to actually TRAIN the dog not to bark all the time. 

My dogs are barkers. Morgan is a motor mouth, nobody walks down the street when she's outside without her talking to them. Not so bad in the house. 

Otto started barking at squirrels from inside the kitchen. The squirrels were in the NEIGHBORS tree. Took a week of removing him from the window and telling him shhhh to get it to stop. Oh my head when he was doing it before my coffee.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaDew claws too - if you've ever watched the excruciating pain of a dog who's ripped his back thumb off (Gideon was a clutz), you'd take them off too.
> 
> Debarking-nope. First of all it's cruel to take the dog's voice away. Second of all, it's less expensive to learn to actually TRAIN the dog not to bark all the time.
> 
> ...



Keys is 1yr old, can you still get a dew claw surgically removed??
(he has hurt it once before...)


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i feel the same way.



> Originally Posted By: Doubleminttwin
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JazzyGirlI think spaying and neutering is not merely a matter of convenience


I don't really treat them the same way. I'd be far far far more likely to spay than to neuter. I'm thinking of people who get suckered into neutering at 4 months so their dog doesn't get "dominate"[sic].


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In Ohio, it is illegal to debark or own a "dangerous" or "viscious dog."

This means that if you got "Lady" debarked becuase of Miss Peekaboo next door complaining about her barking when you get home, and she rushes toward your gate to greet some people walking down the street and they THINK she is trying to get at them to eat them, they can file a report that can literally send your dog to an early euthanasia. 

No, when you buy a dog, you are buying the bark. 

I would NEVER debark a dog.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RKeys is 1yr old, can you still get a dew claw surgically removed??
> (he has hurt it once before...)


Assuming you're talking about his back feet, if it's floppy and sticks out, they're no problem to take off but they have to be put under. If it's stuck to the foot real good like a front dew claw should be, it's more complicated.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I remember hearing about how some breeds don't even have a natural tendancy to bark.... um hello, at least go for those breeds. i believe the Russian wolfhound (borzoi) and the Kuvaus are both breeds that dont really bark.







I wish my guy would bark more....he just watches. Oh well.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel RKeys is 1yr old, can you still get a dew claw surgically removed??
> ...


No, I was talking about his front ones....like his "thumbs"
lol


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Is it loose and floppy? I'm pretty sure they can take those off too if you really want. 

Our dog who ripped it off had both rear dew claws. One was very small like a fetus arm and it stuck off his leg like a bubble. The other one was normal, tight to his foot. Another one of my dogs had them on the back, he wasn't exactly graceful either but he never had a problem becuase they were tight to his feet. 

Most breeders take them off the back when the pups are a few days old. Some like to leave them becuase there's a theory about the dog getting better traction doing field work.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaIs it loose and floppy? I'm pretty sure they can take those off too if you really want.
> 
> Our dog who ripped it off had both rear dew claws. One was very small like a fetus arm and it stuck off his leg like a bubble. The other one was normal, tight to his foot. Another one of my dogs had them on the back, he wasn't exactly graceful either but he never had a problem becuase they were tight to his feet.
> 
> Most breeders take them off the back when the pups are a few days old. Some like to leave them becuase there's a theory about the dog getting better traction doing field work.


WOW, Ive never seen a rear dew claw.....


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

animal cruelty to me


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> WOW, Ive never seen a rear dew claw.....


Look up Beaucerons, they have a double set.


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## sgtmom52 (Aug 30, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> WOW, Ive never seen a rear dew claw.....


My Abby had a floppy rear dew claw that grew a "deformed" claw. Every time I trimmed it, it would bleed like crazy. We had the vet remove it when she was spayed. The vet said it had a "massive vein" feeding it and bled a lot. She had 5 staples closing up the incision. It was actually good that we had it removed because if she would have torn it accidentally it may not have stopped bleeding without emergency care.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I know a white german shepherd dog who has two rear dew claws on one foot. Weird!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I've heard of double dew claws in other breeds, never a GSD. 

I know the topics been around but forget - aren't back dew claws pretty much bred out of DDR/czech line GSDs or are they always removed as newborns?

My dew claw disaster, Gideon, was BYB. My lost cause rescue the husband fell in love with and he broke our hearts to pieces.

Rex was west german working but his breeder was a believer in the better traction theory. I was too young and inexperienced at the time to ask why/how, just knew my GSD I'd had before didn't have them.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

There's this house that has two collies that are debarked where I usually walk Chrono. It's the weirdest sound ever. You can still hear it, it's just like a dog with laryngitis barking at you. The people always leave their collies on the front yard unattended and they still sit there, barking at people even though they are debarked. Like, jeeze, if it's such a big problem don't leave them alone on the front yard to bark at everyone!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Shelties are pretty routinely debarked. Some of the breeders are just lazy, but in the cases of others, they have two choices....debark, or don't have the dogs. The neighbors complain and complain and complain.

Barkiness is inherent in both the Collie and the Sheltie. Some can be trained not to bark, but from my experience, these are the very few.

I know a girl that had to have her Smooth Fox Terrier debarked. They put it off as long as possible, and it wasn't that the neighbors were complaining. They debarked the dog because he actually was barking himself RAW. He had nodules in his throat from the incessant barking...and he wasn't usually barking AT anything. He did it for the sake of it.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

If you are getting a Sheltie though, don't you pretty much expect the dog to be a barker? If you can't stand the barking, don't buy a Sheltie in the first place!


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: XephShelties are pretty routinely debarked. Some of the breeders are just lazy, but in the cases of others, they have two choices....debark, or don't have the dogs. The neighbors complain and complain and complain.
> 
> Barkiness is inherent in both the Collie and the Sheltie. Some can be trained not to bark, but from my experience, these are the very few.
> 
> I know a girl that had to have her Smooth Fox Terrier debarked. They put it off as long as possible, and it wasn't that the neighbors were complaining. They debarked the dog because he actually was barking himself RAW. He had nodules in his throat from the incessant barking...and he wasn't usually barking AT anything. He did it for the sake of it.


Perhaps, but they'd bark a lot less if they weren't all alone on the front lawn. A dog barking inside of a house would definitely not pose a problem to neighbors.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Also, Debarking a dog, doesn't keep it from barking! They still bark, but either we can't hear it, or it sounds like some weird noise that is NOT barking. So I don't understand the barking himself raw, if he still attempted to bark, he would still bark him self raw, minus the sound.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote:Barkiness is inherent in both the Collie and the Sheltie. Some can be trained not to bark, but from my experience, these are the very few.


Uhhhmmm No







this is poor breeding/training & bored to death dogs - alert barking you can't break them out of, but they are easily trained to a 1 or 2 bark limit with consistency, NILIF & ~4hours a day of activity.




> Quote: Shelties are pretty routinely debarked. Some of the breeders are just lazy, but in the cases of others, they have two choices....debark, or don't have the dogs.











Don't have the dogs - crazy, barky shelties are just like crazy, barky GSD's - a combination of bad breeding & lazy owners that don't understand the activity requirements of the breed.
Working line shelties are amazing dogs, those absurd inbred vacuous runts should be called something else


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I had no idea people debarked their dogs! That is awful.

However I did think that breeders routinely removed dewclaws. My BYB GSD (when I was a teen) had a really loose back dewclaw that was always catching on things and bleeding. I think if I had a dog with back dewclaws I would want them to be off as a puppy if possible.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Quote:Uhhhmmm No this is poor breeding/training & bored to death dogs


I have a hard time believing this after spending so much time with Shelties and Collies that are NOT bored or poorly bred. Some are dogs that come from breeders that show in conf and exhibit in agility, obedience, rally, etc....they still bark. And bark. And bark.

Personally, I have no problem with debarking. I wouldn't do it myself, but when you raise and show such breeds and training it out of them doesn't work, and your options are "have no dogs" or "debark", I'll take the debarking.

Strauss is almost 6....I still can't get him not to scream when the radio is on, or if there's a certain song on TV. Haven't debarked him, but there have been days where it was doggone tempting.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

I have a sheltie. Lucky for me he doesn't bark







Even if he did though, I would never even consider debarking! 

Problem to me in most cases, wrong dog for wrong person. Either because of time away from home, lack of activity or too many close neighbors. 

Lucky for me I have no real close neighbors (out in the country) and i like to think I keep the doggers active enough not to bark incessently







Heck, the Sheltie barks less than the GSDs! lol

EDTA: after reading, I tend to agree with Alto. I have seen many shelties that while bred well for conformation, or excell in a certain sport still bark, but often times bark much less than those itty bitty scaredy ones. 

Just because they are a Sheltie (or Collie) doesn't mean they have to bark







I raised Jinx expecting him to not bark or spin and whether it was nature or nurture... either way.. he doesn't do either of the "sheltie" habits


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Agree to disagree then, every actual working (ranch sheep etc) sheltie & collie I've met did not bark excessively & settled just fine, same with my personal dogs - I've met plenty of the sort you're talking about too, most of them bored mad.

I happened to be at a event a couple years ago that was attended by the local collie rescue, out of 8 collies, only one was a barker (none were debarked).


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Then you're lucky. Where I live, there are not ranches for dogs to work on. They get dog sports and long runs/walks. Nothing else is available.

If people want to debark, that's their choice, just like cropping, docking, dew claws, and the like.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

To compare debarking with docking & dew claw removal is absurd; I find it profoundly sad that you move in such dog circles where debarking is 'routine' - how can this possibly play into improving the breed.
As for my dogs, they lived in an urban setting, the working dogs were an axample that this is not inherent in the breed: there are plenty of dogs to be sourced that are not obsessiive barkers.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Quote:To compare debarking with docking & dew claw removal is absurd


I disagree, since they're all a choice made by the owner of the dog(s). Very sorry you find it sad...that's what I've seen around here. I just choose not to own one because of the barking.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I've only seen Collies and Shelties debarked. IMHO that loud raspy noise they utter after the debarking is far more irritating than listening to them barking.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

the degree of impact on the dog, difficulty rating for the surgeries, potential for complications, pain management post-op vary dramatically for these procedures
- if you don't see those as significant differences ...

I was unaware that certain American states & jurisdictions are actually banning breeders from devocalizing & ear cropping _unless performed under anesthesia by a veterinarian_


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: I've only seen Collies and Shelties debarked. IMHO that loud raspy noise they utter after the debarking is far more irritating than listening to them barking.


I met a small JRT type recently that made the oddest noises - reminiscent of nails on a chalk board <shudder> - unfortunately this wasn't what the original owners had in mind when they wanted their dog's bark 'softened' so he was a rescue foster when I met him ...


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't like debarking. I didn't even know it existed until a friend of mine was looking into getting a collie, and barking was something that came up in the descriptions of the breed. My mom grew up with two collies and never mentioned incessant barking. There are certain breeds who bark more than others. Great Pyrenees is one that comes to mind as well. I don't think the fact that they are "barkers" means that they should bark 24/7, though, and agree with Alto that perhaps something else is wrong in those cases, be it nerves or boredom. 

I think that if you are getting a dog you have to KNOW that it's going to bark, and if you're getting a breed that is considered to be more vocal than other breeds, you should be prepared for that. Punishing the dog with an unnecessary surgery because you as the human think it is an inconvenience is just plain wrong. And as others have said they *still* make a noise, and the noise is supposed to be very annoying. It just seems cruel to me.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

The neighbors two doors down waged a campaign against the dog next door- and animal control somehow got them to debark the dog (a GSD). I think they were told debark or big fine and animal taken. I don't think the ACO was right (he is a dirty employee and has had numerous lawsuits for his bad behaviors). It made me SO angry. The real solution is to take their dog INSIDE once in a while and give him some training. Frankly he didn't bark all that often anyway....


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

My mom has a sheltie, he barks but nothing out of the ordinary for a small herding dog, much like my sister's corgi. Usually it's a bark to alert or play barking, nothing too crazy.

I worked for a vet who debarked a dog once...he said he wouldn't do it again. He didn't like how the owner thought this was the cure to the unwanted behavior, it still made the same amount of noises, just weirder and raspy. The lady was like "he's still making noise, I thought this would stop that!" He never performed another debarking again.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AltoAgree to disagree then, every actual working (ranch sheep etc) sheltie & collie I've met did not bark excessively & settled just fine, same with my personal dogs - I've met plenty of the sort you're talking about too, most of them bored mad.
> 
> I happened to be at a event a couple years ago that was attended by the local collie rescue, out of 8 collies, only one was a barker (none were debarked).


I agree with you.
If my dog is stuck inside all day (cold, rain) he is SO much more vocal if he doesnt get proper excersise.
Just barks & whines & nips. Hes a diff dog w/o excersise.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

I don't like the notion of debarking (wouldn't object to debarking a certain neighbor though <insert evil smiley>). Also, from what I've read, eventually the debarked dog will get loud again over time. So back to square one, with a worse sound.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: AltoI find it profoundly sad that you move in such dog circles where debarking is 'routine' - how can this possibly play into improving the breed.


^ second that

My neighbors just go t a sheltie. They also have a big mouth poorly breed too tall too shaggy GSD. What are they thinking. I'm glad they live 2 blocks over and there's a huge buffer of other barking dogs between us.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

So, what do you do if you can't train the dog to stop barking? There are those kinds out there.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Rehome to a more suitable environment or give the dog a job to do.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I don't think excessive barking is natural in dogs, I think it's more of:

1. A sign of boredom
2. A way to gain attention

A lot of dogs, when they bark, get a human response. Be it being spoken too, let in the house or for smaller dogs, picked up and held so they hush. In the dog's mind "When I bark alot, someone pays attention to me! BARK BARK BARK!!"

Given an outlet for energy and not coddled when barking can help.


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## galadybug (Dec 15, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaI've heard of double dew claws in other breeds, never a GSD.


My rescue shep Max has one double rear dew claw and one floppy rear dew claw. His original owner's wife didn't remember who the breeder was, so I guess Mr Max isn't of the best lines. LOL 

He also is Max "Bark a Lot" and I can't Imagine debarking him - even though he does "bark a lot". 

Most of the time Mr Max is 1) barking for reasons or at something of interest only to DOGS! or 2) barking for SUMMONING HUMANS for ATTENTION! That being said "Barking" is a major component of doggie communications with each other. My three make all types of sounds - whines, barks, whoofs etc when together and I can't imagine them without.

I get onto my DH for "responding" so well to Max's training - I tell him that he is empowering the dog! lol When Max barks, DH goes to check on Max and thus Max gets attention from DH.. Doesn't matter much to Mr Max if its "SHUT UP" or "GOOD DOG" as long as he gets a human to come check on him! 

Most of Max's life up until he came to stay with us, was living alone in a small backyard so he's getting a little spoiled now. But if you don't immediately respond to his "barking" and/or turn away from him and leave, he will shut up and lie down. 

The I'm bored and lonely "Bark a Lots" can be reduced by training and leave the dog still able to ALERT for real issues when needed. Never would I debark a dog or declaw a cat. In both cases you remove a vital part of the animals defenses.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think back dew claws are really gross. My boyfriend's sister has a mix that has back dew claws and when that dog walks around they jiggle and bounce like they aren't even attached. It's creepy


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: XephSo, what do you do if you can't train the dog to stop barking? There are those kinds out there.


Metaphorically smack the owner upside the head while asking them why can't they figure out how to make the dog stop. Offer training tips. Explain why and how working breeds get bored. Give the number of a rescue organization that can take the dog off their hands.

It's entirely possible it's a result of BYB bad breeding practices or bad owners. 

Or both! I pulled a dog from a home - same dog with the bubble dew claw. His family was giving him up becuase he barked all the time and they were getting fined by AC. I'm sure he was barking all the time, he was either tied out on a run with a choke chain or locked in a box in the basement. 

Once he was in our house, he rarely barked. Gee wonder why - maybe it was becuase we played with him, I trained him, we walked him. Former family didn't exercise him becuase he was 'too strong for me and my husband doesn't have time', big guido looking guy looked really puzzled when I slapped a prong collar on his dog and lead him nicely to my car to take him away.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I've met a couple of "debarked" dogs and I found the noises they made MUCH more annoying than a dog barking... And I've had some rescue/foster terriers who were barkers so I know what it can be like to deal with non-stop barking. It can be very difficult to fix a barking problem if you have a dog where the barking has been self-rewarding and/or the previous owners inadvertantly rewarded the barking.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

From what I've read here, I can imagine. Never heard a debarked dog barking, LOL, my neighbors would have gossiped and backstabbed that owner into moving somewhere else!


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:I know the topics been around but forget - aren't back dew claws pretty much bred out of DDR/czech line GSDs or are they always removed as newborns?


Akbar and his brother, Hondo, both had rear dew claws. Breeder removed them at birth. So I don't think DDR/Czech lines can't not have them, they probably are always taken off at birth considering shepherds aren't suppose to have rear ones. So it's possible.









I can't stand the people who debark their dogs. I see it all the time at dog shows, the biggest dog I've ever seen with a debarked bark was a collie. THe debarking doesn't work, they just make this weazing waspy sound that sounds like they're choking.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I will admit I know ONE debarked dog that makes NO sound at all (English Cocker). The majority of them do rasp...but the neighbors quit their complaining and the owner can keep their dogs.



> Quote:
> Metaphorically smack the owner upside the head while asking them why can't they figure out how to make the dog stop.


But not all dogs can be trained to quit. Strauss is almost 6 years old and I have tried EVERYTHING under the sun to make him shut up in regards to music on the radio or TV. He shrieks. Bark collars, rewarding for the quiet, shaking a can full of something, binaca, tea tree oil diluted in water, apple cider vinegar diluted in water, regular water, tabasco sauce....nothing has worked. Each method was tried for months....he still howls and wails and carries on.

I know many other dogs (Various breeds) that are the same way. There are just some dogs that won't stop. Doesn't matter what you do, to them, barking will always be rewarding enough that the correction doesn't matter.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Xeph Bark collars, rewarding for the quiet, shaking a can full of something, binaca,










Binaca. He was not barking because he can't be trained NOT to - he just wanted minty fresh breath, Jackie!!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

*ROFL* That must be it, Emily. He wants to have sweet breath to woo the ladies xD


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Quote:Agree to disagree then, every actual working (ranch sheep etc) sheltie & collie I've met did not bark excessively & settled just fine,


My former herding instructor breeds, trains and trials Collies and they barked all through their runs. It was kind of funny (probably because I didn't have to live with them), because there was this gorgeous Collie, happily wearing along behind the flock and every step the dog took was accompanied by a bark. It looked like he was almost keeping time with his tail, too. Janie would just shrug and say, "Eh, these are Collies".

I have also seen a fair number of Shelties in agility and they seem to be pretty vocal on course. I have often heard people refer to the breed's reputation for being barkers.
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shelties seemed to dominate at the the Classic in Cleveland. (This is the only show I have attended that has agility.) They were a terribly barky/yappy group, and I would be a doggy serial murderer if they were my breed.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

I have worked for someone whose sister breeds Malamutes. One of the female pups had a heart murmur and a wonderful personality. She would not sell the pup but, as the temperament was great, offered her to him with him having full knowledge of the health issues. The murmur resolved and the dog continued to have a wonderful temperament and except for the desire to wander caused no problems .... until his employer downsized and the shifts offered were mostly night shift.

The dog missed her owner at night and began to howl. The owner was told by authorities that unless the noise abated the dog would have to be removed. He could not find an alternate home so, despite not wanting to have this done, debarked the dog rather than put her to sleep. The dog still did the woo woo position (like a howling wolf) but no sound came out. The dog's breathing was more noticeable but otherwise, other than no barking or howling sound, the dog was healthy and happy ... and still alive.

I don't think it should be a routine operation and it was an expensive procedure but in some cases it does solve a life/death situation. This dog showed no signs of discomfort but I only knew her when she had already been debarked.

Life circumstances change and sometimes decisions have to be made that are not at all ideal but the alternatives are even worse,


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