# "shiloh" and "king" shepherds



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

First off, I want to say sorry if this is not a topic that should be discussed and mods should delete it if they want! 

I had an encounter a long while back. She had a dog and I decided to make a comment on how nice looking he was. My words: 
"He's a beautiful boy. Is he a German shepherd mix?". 
Well, the lady promptly replies: "No, he's a purebred Shiloh Shepherd". 
Me:









Not sure how everyone thinks about "shiloh" and "king" shepherds, but while I know they make great pets and are gorgeous dogs, but I just don't like them. Yes, they are not "designers", and yes, they have standards, but I sort of think people are advertising them by using the German shepherd reputation while they are completely different in just about every aspect except for looks. 

'Course I'm no expert at all, and I'm an uber opinionated person, so...


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Someone on here does have a Shiloh, although I can't remember who it is.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I personally think they are beautiful, I know of a local breeder and she corrects people(at our training facility) if they think hers is a gsd-in a good way, not condenscending or anything. More like trying to educate on the difference. She is not fond of Tina Barber(developer of the Shiloh), btw, but I only know this, because we were talking about the origins. Her female is smaller boned and shorter than Onyx, so you wouldn't even know she is a Shiloh. She is a beauty, but was a bit unfocused in our CGC class. May have had to do with her age. This is the website: http://www.lakewayshilohs.com/


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I absolutely agree that both the Shiloh and King shepherds are gorgeous dogs, and I think that I am more annoyed with the breeders that advertise these dogs as the loyal German shepherd you knew as a kid, only bigger and fluffier! And trust me, I have seen too many of those people who would say that. I have met a few Shilohs, and they are very sweet tempered and friendly. Not sure if that's how they all are, but they seem very different from the German shepherd behavior wise.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I think the Shiloh Shepherds are pretty. When I was a kid I wanted one. The King Shepherds seem more gimmicky to me but maybe that's because when I first learned about them they were just being "created" so it was a new breed.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If people is going to breed whatever they want and not under the GSD standard, then I'm more than happy they call their dog Shilohs or Kings or whatever and not try to make people to believe that those over-sized coated dogs are what "they should look and what they used to look on the past".

If I like them or not... it's not my business nor I know any in person, I don't like any breed developed as a pet only anyway. But if someone wants to breed a Pet GSD instead of the working breed it used to be, I encourage them to do it under a different name.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Quote:Shiloh Shepherds were created in upstate NY in an attempt to bring back the old style flock- guardian German Shepherd Dogs.


What is the old style flock guardian German shepherd dog?......


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## chinsNdobermans (Dec 18, 2008)

My great uncle has a Shiloh - gorgeous dog, and wonderfully tempered to boot. They love her, but I haven't interacted with her enough to have much of an opinion on them. I actually live very close to Tina Barber, although I have never interacted with her, but that is what first struck me about the breed, where it came from (considering I live in the middle of nowhere). 

I am just happy that they are breeding under their own name and not "distorting" the GSD like has happened with some other breeds.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> 
> > Quote:Shiloh Shepherds were created in upstate NY in an attempt to bring back the old style flock- guardian German Shepherd Dogs.
> ...


A figmentation of their imagimacation, I'd guess.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah I don't get that. I mean, I guess if they really ARE their own breed I'm OK with that but it does not help one's credibility to have misinformation about another breed on their web site.... Maybe they are mistaking GSDs for Great Pyrenese?

Karl Fuller and a herding dog circa 1955. Hmmmm, not a flock guardian and definitely not very big...


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## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowSomeone on here does have a Shiloh, although I can't remember who it is.


I have one. At our house, the common phrase when we refer to our Shiloh, Keeva, is ..."well, at least she's pretty..."









I also have two male GSDs and she is very different from the boys. Not to say she's representative of all Shilohs, but she has multiple health problems and has always had temperament issues that have to be "managed". I've also fostered several GSDs through rescue and the differences between Shilohs and GSDs are far greater than the similarities in my experience, even though Keeva's grandsire is a long-coated GSD. 

After having one, I would never have another though I can see why people are attracted to them.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

My personal feeling is that if people want oversized, long coated GSD look-a-likes with more laid back temperaments, I would rather have breeders working to responsibly create a "breed" that fits those criteria and the people who want them to purchase from those breeders, rather than the BYBs producing intentionally producing that sort of distorted version of a GSD. I think this is better for all involved, and the breeds as a whole.

So I'm much more in favor of Shilohs and Kings than I am the "Old Style" or "Old Fashioned" GSDs pandered about.

Though I will still NEVER understand where this idea that the GSDs of yesteryear were large long coats came from, or how people are using it to justify breeding oversized long coats, or creating breeds like that and claiming they resemble old fashioned GSDs. Because if anything, the true old fashioned GSD was *smaller* than modern GSDs, and long coats were no more common then than they are now. It's this misinformation that people use to justify their breeding that really irritates me. If they want an oversized, longcoated GSD look-a-like, just say so. But stop lying about the heritage of the GSD breed.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: duenorth...but she has multiple health problems and has always had temperament issues that have to be "managed".


and thats really odd, because those are two points that breeders usually boast about in their breed.


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## Helly (Mar 31, 2008)

I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but I was in Petsmart with Jackson the other day...young girl came in with her GSD...biggest dog I have ever seen in my life...she said he was 9 months old and I asked if he was a King German Shepherd..she looked kind of funny at me and said "no, I think he is just a regular German Shepherd, but I know his parents were big"..Seriously, this dog had to weigh at least 100 pounds and was very lanky. He was marked just like a black and tan, but very big...poor girl couldn't control him at all either.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I always think that the reason some people seem to think that the "old fashioned GSDS from their childhood" were so big is that they were CHILDREN. Of course the dog SEEMED large, you were a CHILD!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Must be, Tracy. I've never understood where the "old style" thing came from. The GSDs I remember from my childhood were all from BYBs but they looked mostly like working lines or true older style GSDs like the one in the pic I posted. It wasn't until I got more into the breed that I even knew the American and German show lines existed! Let alone these fuzzy giants that supposedly resemble the originals.... *scratches head*


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

From the Shiloh shepherd website:
http://www.shilohshepherd.com/

"Do you remember a specific 'German Shepherd' you used to know as a child (or if you are under 40) one that your family or friends told you about? He was the dog with that super, almost human intelligence; that big family protector that was so very gentle with little children, yet would give his life for his master without question.

The dog that would walk you to the school bus, and then show up again exactly on time to wait for your return; the hero that everyone talked about; the one that seemed half human. His personality consisted of Lassie, Strongheart, and Rin Tin Tin all rolled into one.
Well, that dog is still here today, and he is called a 

SHILOH SHEPHERD™!"










That's what bugged me


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yup. People playing on the fanciful memories of childhood, which tend to be very different from the actual reality.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildMy personal feeling is that if people want oversized, long coated GSD look-a-likes with more laid back temperaments, I would rather have breeders working to responsibly create a "breed" that fits those criteria and the people who want them to purchase from those breeders, rather than the BYBs producing intentionally producing that sort of distorted version of a GSD. I think this is better for all involved, and the breeds as a whole.
> 
> So I'm much more in favor of Shilohs and Kings than I am the "Old Style" or "Old Fashioned" GSDs pandered about.
> 
> Though I will still NEVER understand where this idea that the GSDs of yesteryear were large long coats came from, or how people are using it to justify breeding oversized long coats, or creating breeds like that and claiming they resemble old fashioned GSDs. Because if anything, the true old fashioned GSD was *smaller* than modern GSDs, and long coats were no more common then than they are now. It's this misinformation that people use to justify their breeding that really irritates me. If they want an oversized, longcoated GSD look-a-like, just say so. But stop lying about the heritage of the GSD breed.


Chris, we need to email your post to every Shiloh/King breeder AND every breeder of the so-called "olde style German shepherd dog that's nearly as big as a mammoth and lazier than an aged basset."


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

The larger GSDs appeal to me because I like larger dogs in general. However I would be concerned about the hips and health when they are larger than they are "meant" to be. People I know who are more knowledgeable about Shilohs have told me they have a lot of health and hip problems (more than GSDs).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I like a powerful looking, larger boned GSD with a big head (and I like doggy bitches) but to me that doesn't have to mean a _larger_ GSD, weight- and height-wise.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I like medium sized GSDs that are VERY solidly boned and I like them looking doggy. The bitches should have strong heads and faces, too. But as far as size goes, don't knock the small guys- Belgian mals routinely pull down the helper in protection sports and they are small and light. A lot of speed and just the right size is a powerful force, and a GSD need not be 100 lbs to be very intimidating.

Any repair guy that comes to our house is VERY intimidated by my little 45 lb meef of a dog. He does look like a pure GSD, but he has looks that kill and a very menacing bark, plus he has a big head and has good bone which makes him look tougher. Just today a repair guy asked me to stand in front of his crate, putting myself between him and my crated pooch. I'm sure if I owned a 90 lb GSD that acted like a baby (yes, they're out there), I'd have a different reaction. If the dog thinks he's big, he's going to be BIG. If the dog thinks he's small, he's going to be tiny no matter his body size. Presence counts for a lot.









Of course, I think Renji just puts on a big show.







And I definitely don't encourage the nonsense.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I considered getting a Shiloh for several years b/c I love the size & look of 'em. Unfortunately, after talking extensively with breeders & owners, (also former breeders & owners), it became clear the appearance is the only thing about them that I really like. 

From what people told me, they sounded (for my tastes) to be excessively soft & submissive, sometimes skittish, & with at least as many health & temperament problems as indifferently bred GSDs. 

The situation with the Kings appears to be no better & possibly even worse. 

Some of the breeders I talked to are truly babes in the woods when it comes to dogs & breeding yet they're involved with a developing breed! I have considerably more dog knowledge & background than some of the breeders I spoke with. I found that mind boggling. (My dog knowledge & background is decent as far as keeping dogs, but I'm NOT qualified to breed. IF I had the support of a top notch mentor I'm still NOT qualified to breed)

For these reasons, I won't consider a Shiloh or a King. Nor will I recommend them to others unless they research the breed(s) verrry carefully & are certain these dogs are what they're seeking. I suspect the hype often exceeds the reality with these breeds.

As much as I enjoy & respect Chris, Lee, Clifton, Diana & many others on this board, I ultimately have to choose the dogs that are right for me, not the dogs others think s/b my ideal. Among those dogs are oversized (as in tall) companion GSDs. I thought Sam was perfect until I got Djibouti, her grandson. He *is* perfect (for me that is). 

Breeders producing long lived, healthy dogs with good temperaments have largely(no pun intended) justified themselves. I've always thought that the historical references were in response to what the AKC show breeders were producing & had more to do with level top lines & more moderate angulation than size. 

I believe Djibouti will make an excellent therapy dog & plan to pursue that with him, which will be the extent of his working career. I tell his admirers that he's over sized & much too tall per the standard. Dogs like Djibouti are no threat to sporting/working lines (or show lines) b/c the goals & appearances are so distinct that the respective breeders are generally mutually disinterested & disdainful of the other lines & won't choose to breed with 'em.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:However I would be concerned about the hips and health when they are larger than they are "meant" to be.


Yep. That's why I'm not interested in obtaining an over sized dog from breeders whose experience & goals are restricted to dogs of standard size. Just b/c their standard sized GSDs have good hips & are long lived does not mean the same applies to the occasional over sized GSD they inadvertently produce. I love my big guys & I want them from breeders who have an extensive history producing large dogs who are sound, healthy & long lived.

Additionally, while size is important to me, it's not the only quality I'm seeking, nor is it the most important. Breeders who produce the occasional over sized GSD could easily have a pup with the size I want that's lacking in other qualities important to me. I passed on several lovely long coats b/c as much as I love coats, in other ways they weren't exactly what I wanted. I considered breeders who specialize in over sized long coats but none of them produced exactly the GSD that I want. In my own perverse way I am very, very picky about the dogs I live with.

Admittedly, I prefer tall GSDs, but I'm not married to a notion that biggest is bestest. The dog I *think* I want my next GSD from is 28", which while tall, is 3-4" shorter than Djibouti's sire. (I don't want another GSD pup for 2-3 yrs, but I'm a 'long range thinker').


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:The dog I *think* I want my next GSD from is 28", which while tall, is 3-4" shorter than Djibouti's sire.


0___0 Good god that's tall....

I never liked the look or temperament of the Shilohs and never plan to like them. I don't like King sized shepherds either because they are to slow and sluggish. A friend of mine owns a king shepherd and that thing is so incredibly slow and dumb. Very slow at learning too. It also lays around a lot and almost never wants to do anything. How on earth do breeders call this the "old type GSD"?!? I'll never understand people...


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

My german shepherd is 28" tall at 11 months. If you'd like to imagine his height, look at a door knob. When he sits, the top of his head reaches the doorknob. His ears go above it.

An employee in a pet store asked me if he was a king shepherd, but I replied with "No, he's just big." I'm pretty sure an important part of the description of a king shepherd is that it has a very full, feathery coat. My german shepherd is really smooth, and probably the only thing he has in common with a king shepherd is how tall he is. He also has papers. His parents were just very large so he's even bigger.

....and knocks over absolutely everything with his tail.... -_-'

Coincidentally I just started looking up shiloh shepherds about a week ago. Glad to hear some information that isn't the standard "OH MY GOD MY SHILOH PUPPIES ARE PERFECT BUY THEM NOW." from breeders heh


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## Tetley's Mom (Dec 1, 2008)

We were _**this close** _to getting a Shiloh Shepherd over the standard breed GSD because of what we read - the temperment, etc. but were taken aback after numerous discussions and meetings with the breeders. They all seemed to be backyard breeders and say the same thing - these are the perfect dog, the GSD you remember from childhood... We also turned off by what seemed to be an internal fued between the original founder from NYs Shilohs and "splinter group" breeders. There was a lot of bantering between the two. Some were certified under the founder, others by another organization, and it was too confusing and soap opera like determining which was "better."

We stuck with the standard GSD and focused on the _right breeder and right dog_. We are so glad we did. Tetley is the perfect dog for us.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:I don't like King sized shepherds either because they are to slow and sluggish. A friend of mine owns a king shepherd and that thing is so incredibly slow and dumb. Very slow at learning too. It also lays around a lot and almost never wants to do anything.


King sized shepherds aren't necessarily slow nor sluggish, although smaller GSDs are usually faster & more agile. My guy is powerful, active & far from slow, although he's no Greyhound.

While I've heard some unflattering things concerning the King Shepherd temperament & conformation, this is the 1st time I've heard 'dumb' or slow to learn. Given that it's a sample of one, I suspect it's an anomoly, rather than truly characteristic of the breed.

Dim witted, slow learners can be found in any breed regardless of size. GSDs & GSD type dogs, are typically mentally quick, eager to learn, excellent problem solvers with an ingrained desire to please those they bond with & respect. In my experience this is no less true of the GSDs that top 30" than of those that are only 25".


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

That's pretty much what I was going to say. Could be just the one dog. One person's interpretation of "slow and sluggish" might be another's "laid back and calm." 

If you are used to and like the active, working dog personality, anything slower and calmer than that may seem like slow and sluggish. To me, unless you are really good at controlling a strong personality dog (no matter what breed it is) it is probably to much dog for a lot of people. Just like people, dogs have different personalities. The wrong dog in the wrong hands can be a disaster waiting to happen.

For people who love the look, but don't deal well with the active, heavy duty working dog personality, something that looks like what they love but doesn't have that strong personality might be the best thing that ever happened to them dog-wise. For myself, I'd take laid back and calm over active, working line any day. 

It's a matter of matching the dog to the human personality in a way. People with very strong personalities can do very well with an active working line dog. For me, that's way to much dog and would be dangerous in my hands because I know I would not have the necessary control and strong personality for a dog like this. 

Maybe some of these people with the Shilohs and Kings, realize this about themselves and chose a dog that is more laid back and calm?


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