# Working Breeders(My List)



## itsofficial

Hey everyone 

So a year from now I would like to add a GSD pup to my life. Maybe a little longer than a year, possibly a little less. About 4 years ago my family and I rescued an 18 month old GSD, Bruno, who is an amazing dog. And means the world to my family and me. I am on my own now, but still see Bruno on a regular basis.

Though Bruno is an active dog he doesn't have a very high drive and he does well with daily walks and some off leash running. So to start off with what Im looking for, I'd absolutely LOVE a working GSD to join a Schutzhund club with. In addition to that a great temperament, high drive, and a good off switch for inside the house.

Just from browsing around I've come up with a list of breeders that I really like, and want to keep an eye on. Thoughts on or any additions to the list? Any questions for me?
Czech German Shepherd Dogs from Alpine K9

- Home

WeberHaus German Shepherds

Thank you


----------



## Lucy Dog

The first link you provided is a broker, not a breeder. Probably has some very good dogs, but lots of them. Just something to keep in mind.


----------



## Sunflowers

German Shepherd breeder,German Shepherd puppies
(Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)


----------



## itsofficial

Ahh ok that makes sense, when you click on their sold puppies and sold adults, there are a lot listed.

Cool thanks for the links. I will check them out!


----------



## elisabeth_00117

If it were me, I would be checking out Weberhaus for sure!


----------



## jmdjack

Lucy Dog said:


> The first link you provided is a broker, not a breeder. Probably has some very good dogs, but lots of them. Just something to keep in mind.


My understanding is that Hans (Alpine K9) imports dogs from Jinopo and is a breeder. He breeds under the kennel name "z AlpineK9." I believe he now has former Jinopo stud Bady on premises and is using him in his breeding program. I do not have any personal experience with him or his dogs, just thought I would provide my own understanding that he breeds as well as brokers. Best wishes.


----------



## Lucy Dog

jmdjack said:


> My understanding is that Hans (Alpine K9) imports dogs from Jinopo and is a breeder. He breeds under the kennel name "z AlpineK9." I believe he now has former Jinopo stud Bady on premises and is using him in his breeding program. I do not have any personal experience with him or his dogs, just thought I would provide my own understanding that he breeds as well as brokers. Best wishes.


You're right... probably a combination of both. I believe Hans (alpinek9) does have a partnership with jinopo as he's also brokering dogs from other breeders that he imports.

If the OP or anyone else is interested in this breeder/broker, you can pm me for some more info.


----------



## Elaine

Where are you located? Are you only interested Czech dogs or workingline in general? Are you willing to ship?


----------



## itsofficial

Im located in Colorado. I really like the Czech dogs and they are my preference, but I'm open to any working line. Yes, I'm willing to have the pup shipped.


----------



## Elaine

Neither of these are Czech, but both have super nice dogs.

:: BILL KULLA DOG TRAINING ::

Staatsmacht Kennel, one of the top working lines kennel in the world

If you are open to shipping and non-Czech dogs, you should check out the breeders section here and you will find some very good breeders recommended over and over.


----------



## Lakl

If you are interested in a well bred Czech, I would definitely talk to Cliffson1. He's a member, and I got my recent puppy through him. He is around 70/30 Czech and WG working line and so far is everything I was hoping for.


----------



## argo daisynina dvora

You might look up her dogs.
CHOVATELSK STANICE - MAJORV HJ


----------



## NancyJ

It may also be good to get involved in the local schutzhund club anyway you can before you get the puppy and they may have some solid leads as well.


----------



## juliejujubean

i have a gildaf baby (second link) i highly recommend melinda! pm me if you want to know more about temperament and drive and stuff.


----------



## szariksdad

A couple of others to consider are 
Dragon German Shepherd, 623-388-0494, German Shepherd Puppies, Czech German Shepherd, Working Dogs, Personal Protection Dogs, Police, K9
Czech German Shepherds Import Working Line
Kennel Dogs Schutzhund Home protection SAR Police Dogs Mondio French Ring

They cover the same area and have produced good working dogs.


----------



## itsofficial

Wow can't believe how many replies I'm waking up to!



Elaine said:


> Neither of these are Czech, but both have super nice dogs.
> 
> :: BILL KULLA DOG TRAINING ::
> 
> Staatsmacht Kennel, one of the top working lines kennel in the world
> 
> If you are open to shipping and non-Czech dogs, you should check out the breeders section here and you will find some very good breeders recommended over and over.


Yep, Im definitely open to shipping. From what I can see they both look great. I will keep taking a look at them.



Lakl said:


> If you are interested in a well bred Czech, I would definitely talk to Cliffson1. He's a member, and I got my recent puppy through him. He is around 70/30 Czech and WG working line and so far is everything I was hoping for.


Very cool, I will send him a pm. I think I've seen his name in another post.



argo daisynina dvora said:


> You might look up her dogs.
> CHOVATELSK STANICE - MAJORV HJ


Cool Ill take a look



jocoyn said:


> It may also be good to get involved in the local schutzhund club anyway you can before you get the puppy and they may have some solid leads as well.


Do you think its too early to start checking out the club if I won't be looking for a pup till this time next year?



juliejujubean said:


> i have a gildaf baby (second link) i highly recommend melinda! pm me if you want to know more about temperament and drive and stuff.


PM sent 



szariksdad said:


> A couple of others to consider are
> Dragon German Shepherd, 623-388-0494, German Shepherd Puppies, Czech German Shepherd, Working Dogs, Personal Protection Dogs, Police, K9
> Czech German Shepherds Import Working Line
> Kennel Dogs Schutzhund Home protection SAR Police Dogs Mondio French Ring
> 
> They cover the same area and have produced good working dogs.


Thank you for the links!

Lol it looks like I have a bit of a longer list to take a look at now.
Thank you for everyones suggestions.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

Definitely check out any Schutzhund clubs you may join. The more you learn BEFORE you get your pup the easier it will all be. Plus they can help you pick out a dog that fits your needs best after meeting you and talking with you.


----------



## Betty

It never hurts to run breeder names through google also. No one can please everyone all the time but if there is a pattern that emerges..........

Or it may give you a heads up on things you may want to discuss prior to putting down a deposit.


----------



## JanaeUlva

I got my female, Minka, from Mike Diehl. She has turned out to be perfect for me. A club member has a Diehl dog who's working out for her and a friend of mine has a litter mate to Minka and she too is happy with her. All three mentioned females are in Schutzhund training and doing great. Minka is also doing AKC obedience and Agility as well. 

Mike Diehl


----------



## Ocean

itsofficial said:


> I really like the Czech dogs and they are my preference, but I'm open to any working line.


These days Czech dogs are not much different from working lines in any part of Europe and most dogs are no longer 100% Czech. It is more important to get to know the breeder, first and foremost, and the dog parents.

It still boggles my mind that people will buy puppies purely from a website, then have them shipped. It would be like adopting a child purely through the Internet. I like to meet the breeder personally, visit their home and meet both parents ideally. If it means going to Europe, I will do that. If it means driving 1,000 miles across the US, I will do that too. That's why instead of looking at mile long lists of breeders, I would rather visit schutzhund clubs in person and talk to people there. I may not buy directly from a club member but it's a small community and there are less than six degrees of separation for virtually any schutzhund dog breeder anywhere in the world. I bet you can make a direct connection via 3 people to just about anyone. This was true even before the Internet.


----------



## itsofficial

4TheDawgies said:


> Definitely check out any Schutzhund clubs you may join. The more you learn BEFORE you get your pup the easier it will all be. Plus they can help you pick out a dog that fits your needs best after meeting you and talking with you.


Very true. I will start contacting the clubs in my area soon.



Betty said:


> It never hurts to run breeder names through google also. No one can please everyone all the time but if there is a pattern that emerges..........
> 
> Or it may give you a heads up on things you may want to discuss prior to putting down a deposit.


Actually never thought of doing this. I will be googling each breeder to see what comes up.



JanaeUlva said:


> I got my female, Minka, from Mike Diehl. She has turned out to be perfect for me. A club member has a Diehl dog who's working out for her and a friend of mine has a litter mate to Minka and she too is happy with her. All three mentioned females are in Schutzhund training and doing great. Minka is also doing AKC obedience and Agility as well.
> 
> Mike Diehl


I checked out his website, and he has some very nice looking dogs. I will keep my eye on this breeder.



Ocean said:


> These days Czech dogs are not much different from working lines in any part of Europe and most dogs are no longer 100% Czech. It is more important to get to know the breeder, first and foremost, and the dog parents.
> 
> It still boggles my mind that people will buy puppies purely from a website, then have them shipped. It would be like adopting a child purely through the Internet. I like to meet the breeder personally, visit their home and meet both parents ideally. If it means going to Europe, I will do that. If it means driving 1,000 miles across the US, I will do that too. That's why instead of looking at mile long lists of breeders, I would rather visit schutzhund clubs in person and talk to people there. I may not buy directly from a club member but it's a small community and there are less than six degrees of separation for virtually any schutzhund dog breeder anywhere in the world. I bet you can make a direct connection via 3 people to just about anyone. This was true even before the Internet.


I understand what your saying Ocean. I have a club in mind near me that I will be contacting soon, and hopefully will be able to check them out. Once I talk to some people there I will get their opinions as well. But will ultimately be choosing a breeder on my own based on suggestions and opinions from everyone. And I won't just be buying a puppy purely on their website, I want input from as many people as possible before making any decisions. And as long as its a reputable/responsible breeder, I don't have a problem with the puppy being shipped to me.


----------



## GunnersMoms

I really appreciated this list. I contacted one of the breeders on this list, and was very impressed with the pedigree of the pups on the ground!! I may have a new dog soon... I hope! Testing the knowledge of the breeder and looking at the pedigrees and speaking with them to learn who they are as a breeder and owner of GSD's can make a long distance purchase do-able. When you agree on the ethical points as well as see an impressive breeding stock and working knowledge of the breed then you know you have the right breeder for you.


----------



## weberhaus

To the OP
Everyone has given many great suggestions for finding the right pup for you. 
Talk with the breeder to let them know what you want as some litters may be a better fit.
Wishing you the best of luck

Malinda


----------



## itsofficial

Thank you. I will let the breeders know exactly what I am looking for so they can guide me in the right direction litter wise. This is all very exciting even though I'm still a year from adding a puppy to my life .


----------



## meldleistikow

I would definitely look into the clubs early. Not all clubs are created equal and I think that it is better to find the club with the people you like and the training styles you like, before you bring a pup into it. 

I would also recommend Staatsmacht. Great people and great dogs. Very knowledgeable and honest. 

I don't have a dog from Gildaf, but when I was looking into buying a pup from Malinda she was very helpful, informative, and quick to respond to emails.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

My best friend has a pup from Bill and Jen (Bill Kulla) and I can honestly say that you won't go wrong. I have met a few dogs from them and watched them work, in everyday life and in just about any and every situation possible - solid, solid, solid nerve. Tones of prey, not too much defense at this age (they are about 15 months old) but that could come. Amazing temperaments and VERY hard to rattle. Nice dogs, and I wouldn't hesitate to take one if offered.. LMAO.


----------



## Wolfgeist

Huge recommendation for Bill and Jen at Kulla Dogs from me... they gave me my dream dog, and I have seen countless owners so happy with the dogs they produce. Bill and Jen have a fabulous reputation.. they seriously know what they are doing... they have incredible dogs. The proof is in the pudding - just have a look at all they accomplish. One thing I have a lot of respect for is the fact that Bill and Jen live and breathe German Shepherds, Schutzhund and breeding. They are seriously, seriously experienced - very trust worthy. Producing fantastic dogs time and time again.

Will be getting another puppy from them in the future.


----------



## itsofficial

Thanks everyone. Getting all of your opinions means a lot, especially since you have first hand experience seeing some of the dogs these breeders have produced. Well to say the least I have added to the list I first posted haha. But I will have a better idea once I speak to a couple of the breeders, and get their opinions as well. I've also started searching through pedigrees of some dogs and I've gotten a lot of great info.


----------



## vom Eisenherz

M*A*linda at weberhaus is a TOTALLY different woman than M*E*linda at vom Gildaf. I know M*A*linda from weberhaus and would not hesitate to recommend her. She is one of the few that really has the dogs' best interests at the core of her program, from all I know. I haven't spoken to her recently, but we used to talk from time to time because we owned littermates.

Can't say anything bad about Bill and Jen either. Obviously, I like them and their dogs or I wouldn't have bred to Boy!


----------



## Missourigsds

Malinda at Weberhaus is fantastic. I can personally attest to her integrity, knowledge, and desire to produce outstanding GSDs. I couldn't be happier with my recent purchase.

Obligatory picture of my new puppy at 4 months below.


----------



## jaggirl47

Malinda at Weberhaus. She has amazing dogs and is a great resource to talk to. You cannot go wrong with her. There are other breeders on here that have used her studs as well.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

how do you get on this list? because people like you?or because the dogs are looking nice or should we start to think about success.
i read a lot of time kennel names and have never see a dog on a big trial or where ever. is cgc really success and does it make a dog to a stud male? i am really wondering.

would like to understand


----------



## onyx'girl

Stefan, who are you referrring to **kennel names removed by ADMIN. too specific and could lead to breeder bashing** ?


----------



## jaggirl47

onyx'girl said:


> Stefan, who are you referrring to/** names removed**?


 
I don't think he was referring to anything in particular. I think he was asking overall in how a breeder would be put on a list to look at.


----------



## onyx'girl

thanks for the clarification. Though I'd like to hear more from Stefan!


----------



## robk

Stefan Schaub said:


> how do you get on this list? because people like you?or because the dogs are looking nice or should we start to think about success.
> i read a lot of time kennel names and have never see a dog on a big trial or where ever. is cgc really success and does it make a dog to a stud male? i am really wondering.
> 
> would like to understand


This is just a list breeder's that a forum member has put together and some suggestions from other forum members. Nothing more. There are Many Many great breeders of very good dogs that are not on this list and we all know it. No big deal.


----------



## Vinnie

onyx'girl said:


> Stefan, who are you referrring to **kennel names removed by ADMIN. too specific and could lead to breeder bashing** ?





jaggirl47 said:


> I don't think he was referring to anything in particular. I think he was asking overall in how a breeder would be put on a list to look at.


Yep, that's how I took it too. I think jaggirl is right. This isn't about anything or anyone in particular. It is a general and overall question.



Stefan Schaub said:


> how do you get on this list? because people like you?or because the dogs are looking nice or should we start to think about success.
> i read a lot of time kennel names and have never see a dog on a big trial or where ever. is cgc really success and does it make a dog to a stud male? i am really wondering.
> 
> would like to understand


And a very good sincere question.

If I’m understanding correctly, the question is being asked of the OP (original poster) and those recommending a breeder. How does a breeder get on their list of Working Breeders? The question is not necessarily asking about the breeders themselves but rather what in this buyer’s mind qualifies a breeder (any breeder) to be included on this list. Also to the rest of us who are recommending a breeder to put on the list - same question.

How do we qualify the breeders we are recommending here? Is it because we think the breeder's dogs LOOK good? Because their dogs are high-level competitors? Is it because the dogs have a CGC certificate? Is it because we are simply friends with the breeder? Why are the breeders on the list and why are those being recommended to "the list"?

It’s a genuine question and could actually help this buyer find the right breeder. It comes back to the old question - what do you really want and how are you going to get it?


----------



## onyx'girl

Wow sorry if I offended anyone, I apologize. I didn't mean any thing, and was it was not my intention to 'bash' with the question I asked. The question seemed a bit pointed and I wanted clarification on who he was referring to.


----------



## Vinnie

onyx'girl said:


> Wow sorry if I offended anyone, I apologize. I didn't mean any thing, and was it was not my intention to 'bash' with the question I asked. The question seemed a bit pointed and I wanted clarification on who he was referring to.


Who did you offend? Hope you don't think it was me. :laugh:


----------



## jaggirl47

Vinnie, excellent post above. I think that answered Stefan's question.


----------



## Vinnie

jaggirl47 said:


> Vinnie, excellent post above. I think that answered Stefan's question.


Did you think I answered his question? I wasn't trying to. I just asked the same question using different words. LOL. I didn't think I answered a thing.  The question is still out there.


----------



## jaggirl47

Vinnie said:


> Did you think I answered his question? I wasn't trying to. I just asked the same question using different words. LOL. I didn't think I answered a thing.  The question is still out there.


 
You did.


----------



## Jax08

Vinnie said:


> Did you think I answered his question? I wasn't trying to. I just asked the same question using different words. LOL. I didn't think I answered a thing.  The question is still out there.


Thank you for clarifying his question with specific issues we may look for. I hope people who are recommending breeders come back to answer your specific questions.

Personally, when I started my search for a breeder I crossed off a lot of breeders that were recommended by others that had no personal history with them after receiving PM with additional information. I now have it wittled down to 3-4 breeders based on rec's by people with personal experience.

It is not up to the people recommending breeders. The burden is on the researcher.


----------



## jaggirl47

Jax08 said:


> Thank you for clarifying his question with specific issues we may look for. I hope people who are recommending breeders come back to answer your specific questions.
> 
> Personally, when I started my search for a breeder I crossed off a lot of breeders that were recommended by others that had no personal history with them after receiving PM with additional information. I now have it wittled down to 3-4 breeders based on rec's by people with personal experience.
> 
> It is not up to the people recommending breeders. The burden is on the researcher.


 
Very true Jax.

This thread was originally started in January I think? It had 3 breeders the OP was looking at. Then it morphed into this lol.

It is good that Vinnie answered the last question in easily understood terms for the next that looks at it.


----------



## Jax08

Vinnie didn't answer the question. She clarified the question asking if specific items were criteria. But she didn't answer anything.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Vinni did not answer my question!!!

for real now,why does people name kennel here!! i try to google the name and find nothing, i ask around and no one ever have seen a dog on big trials. id o not care what kind of sport or work, but if we talk about working dogs than please proof that it is a real working dog breeder and not only color wise. 

since i live here in the us i am real interested to find good dogs, with the hope they could fit to my breeding program. but where is the proof??


----------



## Xeph

Is English your second language? I only ask because I'm having a very hard time understanding what you're asking.

What do you mean "find nothing"? You can google any of those kennel names originally mentioned and find them.


----------



## onyx'girl

What kennel name are you referring to? 

As far as a breeding program requirements compared to someone buying a pup for a companion or sport, I don't think the criteria is the same? Though it should be!
As a puppy buyer for companion/sport/work, 
I look at a kennel that knows how to match pedigree and work their own dogs so they understand how to match to bring out the best balance of each side. If a breeder is just breeding but not working or trialing their dogs, how do they know what strengths/weaknesses they have without proofing them? And knowing the health/longevity of the lines they've got in their foundation is important too... have more than one generation to look at is a bonus!
I like to see past litter accomplishments/health tests, etc...that type breeder will keep me interested.

Still not answering your question, Stefan, sorry!
I bet you have the answer for us, however.


----------



## lhczth

Jackie, Stefan is from Germany. English is not his native tongue.


----------



## Mrs.K

Xeph said:


> Is English your second language? I only ask because I'm having a very hard time understanding what you're asking.
> 
> What do you mean "find nothing"? You can google any of those kennel names originally mentioned and find them.


Jacki,

Stefan is a very successful handler, helper and breeder from Germany who relocated his kennel to the United States. 

Staatsmacht Kennels is a very famous and very successful kennel and known worldwide for their excellent dogs. 

What he means with "find nothing" is that these kennels don't produce consistently, high trialing competition dogs. 
That no one, at the same level, Stefan is competing and producing, has ever heard about them, mainly because they are "not out there" at the top, consistently producing BSP worthy dogs. 

Staatsmacht Kennels is one of those kennels that is out there and consistently producing, top dog material and there are a few other kennels that produce at the same level and what he is asking is, how in the world these kennels get on a list that is recommended and praised by so many despite the lack of proof and that most of these kennels claim to be working dog breeders but they don't bring the proof and it's all on paper but not on the field.


----------



## Mrs.K

Also, before anyone says anything. He is not trying to be rude, it's _"German Tone"_.


----------



## Wolfgeist

elaine said:


> neither of these are czech, but both have super nice dogs.
> 
> :: Bill kulla dog training ::
> 
> staatsmacht kennel, one of the top working lines kennel in the world
> .


Totally agree with this.


----------



## Xeph

Staatsmacht is a kennel I watch often  I like the dogs. Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't trying to be rude when I asked about English being his second language, by the way.


----------



## onyx'girl

Mrs. K, you answered the question!


----------



## Stefan Schaub

onyx'girl said:


> What kennel name are you referring to?
> 
> As far as a breeding program requirements compared to someone buying a pup for a companion or sport, I don't think the criteria is the same? Though it should be!
> As a puppy buyer for companion/sport/work,
> I look at a kennel that knows how to match pedigree and work their own dogs so they understand how to match to bring out the best balance of each side. If a breeder is just breeding but not working or trialing their dogs, how do they know what strengths/weaknesses they have without proofing them? And knowing the health/longevity of the lines they've got in their foundation is important too... have more than one generation to look at is a bonus!
> I like to see past litter accomplishments/health tests, etc...that type breeder will keep me interested.
> 
> Still not answering your question, Stefan, sorry!
> I bet you have the answer for us, however.


i think it must be the same. if i go on different websites i find in one kennel 4 females out of 4 different kennels. breeding quality or quantity??? i see a kennel since 16 years breeding,not one dog with the own kennel name in th program!!why??? i see one kennel with a great website and be proud to be a working dog breeder and find only title like cgc or bh. why,where is the proof of work?where are all the dogs from the previous litters.where are all these people who handle thes dogs day for day on duty? if you do not know your line how do you want breed,if you not know what your dogs produce,good and bad things how can you make it better.if you do not train your dogs in any kind of work/sport how can you know if they are working dogs.


----------



## carmspack

so much said , thank you Stefan . yes , yes, yes.
I have made it a point to never ever again buy a dog from a person who does not work their dogs , personally, not sent away for titles. They don't have a clue when selecting the pups . 

*** comment removed by ADMIN. Totally off topic and doesn't belong in this thread. Start another, please**

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


----------



## lhczth

Stefan Schaub said:


> ........... if you do not know your line how do you want breed,if you not know what your dogs produce,good and bad things how can you make it better.if you do not train your dogs in any kind of work/sport how can you know if they are working dogs.


:thumbup:


----------



## wolfstraum

Stefan Schaub said:


> Vinni did not answer my question!!!
> 
> for real now,why does people name kennel here!! i try to google the name and find nothing, i ask around and no one ever have seen a dog on big trials. id o not care what kind of sport or work, but if we talk about working dogs than please proof that it is a real working dog breeder and not only color wise.
> 
> since i live here in the us i am real interested to find good dogs, with the hope they could fit to my breeding program. but where is the proof??


I understand what you are asking, and will attempt to throw some light onto this....

This particular forum is probably 95% people new to the GSD or owners of pets who have not seen or tried to train in IPO. the other 5% are mostly people who are new to the sport, with maybe a dozen people who have titled dogs.

The breeders who get recommended the most are those who have sold puppies, mostly pets, to board members. Other breeders who get recommended have very professional loooking websites, with nice photos and sell many puppies. Potential buyers, and many pet owners react emotionally to the pretty DDR type dogs, and thus recommend those breeders quite often.

If you would research to find out which board members/breeders have titled dogs, and then titled dogs of their breeding, and also bred dogs who are titled, koered, and then the next generation has titled and koered etc...you will find those breeders in single digits. I think, including some inactive members, there may be 8 or 10 breeders who have even accomplished a portion of those criteria....and if I err, it is on the high side. There are many who cite that they are working dogs, but few who have gone past the first generation of imported dogs.

There are some extenuating circumstances here in the US - the scarcity of good helpers and clubs, the distances to those same clubs, the cachet of buying imported dogs, the drama and politics that is rife in the sport at every level here. 

It remains that someone looking for recommendations should always explore the knowledge and experience of those doing the recommendations!

Lee Hough


----------



## Stefan Schaub

wolfstraum said:


> I understand what you are asking, and will attempt to throw some light onto this....
> 
> This particular forum is probably 95% people new to the GSD or owners of pets who have not seen or tried to train in IPO. the other 5% are mostly people who are new to the sport, with maybe a dozen people who have titled dogs.
> 
> The breeders who get recommended the most are those who have sold puppies, mostly pets, to board members. Other breeders who get recommended have very professional loooking websites, with nice photos and sell many puppies. Potential buyers, and many pet owners react emotionally to the pretty DDR type dogs, and thus recommend those breeders quite often.
> 
> If you would research to find out which board members/breeders have titled dogs, and then titled dogs of their breeding, and also bred dogs who are titled, koered, and then the next generation has titled and koered etc...you will find those breeders in single digits. I think, including some inactive members, there may be 8 or 10 breeders who have even accomplished a portion of those criteria....and if I err, it is on the high side. There are many who cite that they are working dogs, but few who have gone past the first generation of imported dogs.
> 
> There are some extenuating circumstances here in the US - the scarcity of good helpers and clubs, the distances to those same clubs, the cachet of buying imported dogs, the drama and politics that is rife in the sport at every level here.
> 
> It remains that someone looking for recommendations should always explore the knowledge and experience of those doing the recommendations!
> 
> Lee Hough


and special why here are so many new people,we all should be open why a dog from this breeder.i am pretty sure that are some breeders here in the us have breed good dogs,healthy and workable.


----------



## GSD07

Stefan, welcome to the US. If you want to be successful here you'll have to work on marketing, you'll have to get on that 'list' you are asking about; your dog breeding/training/titling accomplishments will not be enough to charm the public. I'm sure you know that otherwise you would not be posting here  

When you go to the police dept websites and take a look at their K9, you'll see only their call names and never kennel names. Many of those K9 come from American breeders. Does it qualify for a proof that the breeders breed working dogs even though they are not producing for competition? Just wondering.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSD07 said:


> Stefan, welcome to the US. If you want to be successful here you'll have to work on marketing, you'll have to get on that 'list' you are asking about; your dog breeding/training/titling accomplishments will not be enough to charm the public. I'm sure you know that otherwise you would not be posting here
> 
> When you go to the police dept websites and take a look at their K9, you'll see only their call names and never kennel names. Many of those K9 come from American breeders. Does it qualify for a proof that the breeders breed working dogs even though they are not producing for competition? Just wondering.


Honestly, I don't think he's got issues marketing his dogs.


----------



## WhiteSpirit

GSD07 said:


> Does it qualify for a proof that the breeders breed working dogs even though they are not producing for competition? Just wondering.


Many working stock don't bother with competition because it's not as important. Working stock isn't going for titles as much as function. For most working looks are a far and distant memory. But a big body that grows slow with nice mussel and sturdy bones. That will get them jumping for joy. Then you have working stock that go for different aspects. Most of the dogs I breed were going as service animals. I know another breeder who worked on slightly smaller with a higher prey drive for police and protection. And another who concentrated only on herding drive.

When you focus on these things it leaves little room for competitions. Although many who train for herding do have their own private competitions.


----------



## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I don't think he's got issues marketing his dogs.


I hear the same thing.


----------



## vom Eisenherz

Lucy Dog said:


> You're right... probably a combination of both. I believe Hans (alpinek9) does have a partnership with jinopo as he's also brokering dogs from other breeders that he imports.
> 
> If the OP or anyone else is interested in this breeder/broker, you can pm me for some more info.


If you're not even clear on what Hans does or doesn't do or his relationship with Jiri, may I ask why you're suggesting people PM you for more info on him? No offense, but you don't sound like the most reliable source of info on Hans/Alpine K9. 

Yes, Hans breeds dogs. Hans trains dogs. He and Jiri have a partnership and yes, he "brokers" dogs for Jiri if you want to call it that. Not every dog on his site is on his property, like many breeders in partnership relationships. Jiri doesn't speak any English, so if you speak English and want a Jinopo dog, going through Hans makes sense. To say he's just a broker and brokers dogs for other people really is neither fair nor accurate.


----------



## vom Eisenherz

:thumbup:


wolfstraum said:


> *This particular forum is probably 95% people new to the GSD or owners of pets *who have not seen or tried to train in IPO. the other 5% are mostly people who are new to the sport, with maybe a dozen people who have titled dogs.
> 
> *The breeders who get recommended the most are those who have sold puppies, mostly pets, to board members. * *Other breeders who get recommended have very professional loooking websites, with nice photos and sell many puppies. Potential buyers, and many pet owners react emotionally to the pretty DDR type dogs, and thus recommend those breeders quite often.*
> 
> If you would research to find out which board members/breeders have titled dogs, and then titled dogs of their breeding, and also bred dogs who are titled, koered, and then the next generation has titled and koered etc...you will find those breeders in single digits. I think, including some inactive members, there may be 8 or 10 breeders who have even accomplished a portion of those criteria....and if I err, it is on the high side. There are many who cite that they are working dogs, but few who have gone past the first generation of imported dogs.
> 
> There are some extenuating circumstances here in the US - the scarcity of good helpers and clubs, the distances to those same clubs, the cachet of buying imported dogs, the drama and politics that is rife in the sport at every level here.
> 
> It remains that someone looking for recommendations should always explore the knowledge and experience of those doing the recommendations!
> 
> Lee Hough


EXACTLY! Stefan, I doubt 95% of posters here have any idea who you are. It's a pet board. Not a bad thing, for most, but in your case, it will be eternally frustrating to try and understand why certain breeders are recommended and why people listen to the recommendations. The blind leading the blind comes to mind. But hey, like Wolfstraum said, that certain type breeder thrives on that kind of business.


----------



## GSD07

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I don't think he's got issues marketing his dogs.


  I have no doubt. Your statement is a great marketing tool, by the way  It doesn't hurt to come to the pet board and announce yourself, big name breeders still produce pets that they need to find homes for. 

It's also always nice to drop a few patronizing comments directed to the 95% of 'pet owners' and separate yourself from them as well as from 'pet breeders' as a real 'working' line breeder with a sacred knowledge that comes with that title. Then eternally frustrated with pet owners breeders keep coming to that pet board and post pics of cute puppies. I mean no one in particular or personally, just an observation because the the threads like this appear pretty regularly on this board.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSD07 said:


> I have no doubt. Your statement is a great marketing tool, by the way  It doesn't hurt to come to the pet board and announce yourself, big name breeders still produce pets that they need to find homes for.
> 
> It's also always nice to drop a few patronizing comments directed to the 95% of 'pet owners' and separate yourself from them as well as from 'pet breeders' as a real 'working' line breeder with a sacred knowledge that comes with that title. Then eternally frustrated with pet owners breeders keep coming to that pet board and post pics of cute puppies. I mean no one in particular or personally, just an observation because the the threads like this appear pretty regularly on this board.


Oh, I am right there with you. There are quite a few breeders using this forum as a marketing tool and ooooh the irony of dogs not being allowed to be sold but hey, there is no rule against posting cute puppy pictures of your current litter and nobody can say anything about your link in the signature and if people happen to click on that link to reserve a puppy, that's got nothing to do with you using the forum as a marketing tool at all... 
However, Stefan is hardly one of them. I know what I posted is in his favor but he's earned that statement with his accomplishments. Not everybody would get such a raving review. There are some breeders on this forum, even though they are accomplished as well I can't stand but I'm not going to say any names. We all have breeders we like and dislike for this or that reason.


----------



## robk

I for one will be paying very close attention to Stefan, his posts and paying attention to his website. I am glad he came on here. I am always looking out for who is who in the GSD world. I have seen his kennel name many times just did not know who he was. 

To Stefan, Welcome! I hope to run into you at the top one day!


----------



## GSD07

Mrs.K :toasting: . Stefan, I am glad you are here. Hopefully it will take you some time before 'eternal frustration' consumes you, and you'll be generous enough to share some of your knowlege and experience. We, pet owners, are not all evil


----------



## Jack's Dad

Wow, for once I'm part of the 95% majority. 

Nothing like a bunch of dumb pet owners for entertainment.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Andy, ya think?  There's some looooooong noses looking down on us.

I actually find some of these posts rather insulting. 

Wonder who the OP ended up buying a dog from?


----------



## Jack's Dad

JakodaCD OA said:


> Andy, ya think?  There's some looooooong noses looking down on us.
> 
> I actually find some of these posts rather insulting.
> 
> Wonder who the OP ended up buying a dog from?


Yep, insulting, tacky and elitist.

I do enjoy being in the majority though. 

By now the Op probably bought a dog who lived and died and is on their second dog.

Hmmm, maybe we should suggest some breeders.


----------



## wolfstraum

sigh - I was not trying to insult anyone........the post that I was answering was about breeders - and the board....rather than go into trying to break down experienced GSD owners who do not train competitively vs novice GSD owners vs. non IPO sport people vs rescue people....

Don't assume and take insult where none is intended please.

Lee


----------



## Jack's Dad

No offense Lee.

I've learned a lot from the breeders on here.

It was a softball right over the plate and I just couldn't let it go.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Andy you have such a way with words)


----------



## GSDElsa

The irony is that some individuals posting in this thread might be the type that Stefan is talking about 

I actually think that a lot of the breeders recommended on here have all titled dogs. I mean, when you talk about the ratio of breeders to normal posters..


----------



## vom Eisenherz

Touchy bunch. 

Check out the list of 'active topics' and read the titles. Then tell me it's out of line to point out to someone not familiar w/the different styles of different boards (and new to this "pet parent" country!!) that if he tries to understand why some are recommended, he will be frustrated. Let's face it- how many recommendations are by people who don't even have their first "furbaby" (gag) yet and are recommending a breeder based on the fact that they've been drooling over a dog on their website for a year?? 

People use boards for different reasons. Me, I like them for health and breeding/bloodline info. I joined this one specifically to track a puppy I bred whose owner signed up here. I certainly have never sold a puppy to anyone who learned about them on here. 

Every board has its audience. It is what it is. No need to get all offended.


----------



## Mrs.K

vom Eisenherz said:


> Touchy bunch.
> 
> Check out the list of 'active topics' and read the titles. Then tell me it's out of line to point out to someone not familiar w/the different styles of different boards (and new to this "pet parent" country!!) that if he tries to understand why some are recommended, he will be frustrated. Let's face it- how many recommendations are by people who don't even have their first "furbaby" (gag) yet and are recommending a breeder based on the fact that they've been drooling over a dog on their website for a year??
> 
> People use boards for different reasons. Me, I like them for health and breeding/bloodline info. I joined this one specifically to track a puppy I bred whose owner signed up here. I certainly have never sold a puppy to anyone who learned about them on here.
> 
> Every board has its audience. It is what it is. No need to get all offended.


:thumbup:

It's not easy to understand.


----------



## onyx'girl

holier than thou attitude is never welcoming or welcome.... 

We all take from the board what we want, it is what we _contribute_ that makes the difference.


----------



## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> holier than thou attitude is never welcoming or welcome....
> 
> We all take from the board what we want, it is what we _contribute_ that makes the difference.


I don't think that was his intention, if you mean him. His English is not the best and in combination with the German tone it can be taken the wrong way. If you notice, often times I sound the same way.


----------



## wolfstraum

without tone of voice and expression, we can all be interpreted far differently than we intend

Lee


----------



## onyx'girl

It wasn't Stefan I was referring to. We all should be helpful and share knowledge, so the newbies will be the best they can be for this great breed. Most are, some act as if they are 'above' that.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

onyx'girl said:


> holier than thou attitude is never welcoming or welcome....
> 
> We all take from the board what we want, it is what we _contribute_ that makes the difference.


:thumbup: And unfortunately, many people would rather criticize than contribute.


----------



## Vinnie

I don't know who said it (or if it was actually said or I just perceived it that way) and won't bother to hunt it down but why should a "pet owner" accept anything less than the best? Why shouldn't the breeders being recommended to a pet owner be the same as the breeders recommended to the sport/working/competition people?

Though now, I guess I'd be considered a sport/working dog owner, for most of my life I have been a "pet owner" and still have a lot of that mentality in my head but I still want only the best dogs I can get.

Sorry to add more questions to a thread that is already a run-away-train but that's one thing that has never made since to me. It still makes me wonder.

And Lee, I didn't find your posts offensive.  But maybe that's because years ago when I was a nob (one of the 95% I guess) you were a person I asked a number of questions of - remember that? You were very helpful to me.


----------



## onyx'girl

Vinnie said:


> I don't know who said it (or if it was actually said or I just perceived it that way) and won't bother to hunt it down but why should a "pet owner" accept anything less than the best? Why shouldn't the breeders being recommended to a pet owner be the same as the breeders recommended to the sport/working/competition people?
> 
> *And Lee, you were a person I asked a number of questions of - remember that? You were very helpful to me.*


*And to me,too! Thank you!!*
I posted awhile back that breeders looking for breeding stock don't have the same criteria as a 'pet owner'. But the pet owner should have that same mindset. Raises the bar some?


----------



## wolfstraum

It always astounds me when people say to me - I don't want to pay for a show dog, I just want a pet....

I always ask if they want good temperament, a good chance at healthy and longetivity....and tell them they should want the same things I want....and that a pet is a very important job for a GSD...and that getting a dog from a credentialed litter gives them a better shot at getting a stable, healthy dog....

Lee


----------



## carmspack

I have always said that those wanting a pet should not apologize for it and that they deserve and need the best dog possible. One with stable temperament , absolutely. Most pet owners are not sophisticated in training or behaviour , so easily trainability without issues , absolutely.
They want a dog who is well adjusted who can cope with all the comings and goings of a household and the inconsistencies that happen when you have different ages and expectations , doors being left open, neighbours some dog-friendly, some not, some provoking the dog even .
They should get a dog that is healthfull and long lived , when given basics of care and nutrition , the vet won't be on the calendar marked in for appointments.
There is no Just in pets . The impact a dog can make, good or bad , on a family is great.

Just think . What does the puppy mill and back yard breeder depend on ? The pet market. If potential pet owners expected more , as they should, then maybe , because the bar is raised , some of these puppy mills , back yard breeders and puppy farmers would not have a market to sell to.
Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Just wanted to clarify my comments weren't directed towards lee or stefan, I apologize if they took it that way. I think Lee's post was explanatory and tactful. 

This board is mainly pet owners and new people, they come here for information, suggestions and help. I agree why should a "pet owner" settle for anything less than the anyone else? And I also agree if one has knowledge one should contribute vs criticize. 

I'm sure every breeder / person on here was "just a pet owner" at some point in their lives.


----------



## Liesje

I guess what I find funny about this board is how people will be so quick to recommend breeders they have no dealings with. I try to recommend only those I have spent time with or have dealt with. Sometimes I might mention a breeder I've considered in the past or someone that people I trust have recommended to me but always say I have no first hand information. I've seen people recommend breeders of my dogs citing my dogs but these are people I've never met and have never seen my dogs or met my breeder. On one hand it's flattering but on the other hand it seems kind of funny to me. What if *I* don't recommend the breeder? LOL Not saying I don't but a lot of people on here have really nice dogs but have had bad experiences and don't recommend their breeders.

I do not know Stefan but I think that the quality of his dogs and his program speaks for itself


----------



## Jax08

It always amazes me that a person that shows such disdain, in almost every thread they post, for a large percentage of the members of this board would bother to stick around.


----------



## Castlemaid

I think people are reading too much into these posts - Lee and others have apologized and explained themselves. 

The post was an answer to an honest question: How does someone who has working lines, but does not test their stock, get recommended? 


They get recommended because someone has a pup from them and are happy with their dog, or because they read good stuff about them. Fair enough, but not really in-depth knowledge about the dogs that are being bred. I agree with Lee here, since most of the members here are new to GSDs, many do not even understand the difference between the lines, and are not familiar with working titles, and why dogs should be titled before breeding. 

This is a pet-oriented board, mostly because of the membership. I think it is a great place for new members to learn more about GSDs from people like Lee, Carmen, Stefan, and others. 

Do hope that Stefan stays on as a member and shares some of his experience and accomplishements, we would all be better for it as a community.


----------



## Jax08

I wasn't referring to Lee at all, or Stefan. I thought Lee's post was very well thought out and Stefan's questions were legitimate and raised a concern that needed to be discussed.


----------



## wolfstraum

Thanks all - this puzzles and frustrates me as well.....and the fact that breeders who have never titled a dog or trained a dog promote their pups on their websites as suitable for sport, LE, SAR etc...

I have produced dogs in LE, SAR, sport titled in IPO, AKC Rally, Agility, Obedience, Flyball and 1 maybe 2 HGH dogs in the making! But with few exceptions, the owners are not on boards! And the second generation from my Basha ( who produced National level in Europe, as well as LE dogs! from the litters I bred there while training and waiting for family issues to resolve to bring her home) is already producing National level competitive dogs.....Archer Traumwolfen and Ava Starkenhund - how often does a not even 2 year old female beat the big boys, the seasoned IPO3 dogs for High Protection at a Regional??? But the people with these dogs are not internet junkies! 

So breeders who have fancy websites and never put a SchH1 or IPO1 on a dog either constantly post and have lots of litters or others who sold a couple pups to sometimes very new board members get pushed like crazy here.....and then you see the posts about fearful pups, aggressive pups, non socialized pups from some of the owners of pups from these breeders....I see breeders get recommended over and over and over on the basis of their websites, breeders who seem to have a regular courier service bringing over old (should be retired) breeding stock for just one last litter and then I wonder what happened to that poor old dog! 

That is why I often make a remark that people looking need to examine the experience of the person making the recommendation!!!! 

Sorry if this seems to be a rant!

Lee


----------



## G-burg

I don't know Lee, sounds like a pretty good rant to me..


----------



## wolfstraum

lol Leesa!

and FWIW - I don't have pups often and don't have any now! Last litter was 11 mo ago, and next ??? maybe 8 months from now - so over 1.5 years between litters .....lol of course, when Leesa gets Kougar titled then maybe a Kougar x Hexe or Kougar x Panther litter.....

lee


----------



## carmspack

this is the case , there are so many little operations where people buy titled GSD , breed, and rotate, bring in more imports . They rarely go beyond first generation.
This applies for both working/sporting and show lines. People who buy very highly rated top dollar show animals , advertise they only breed V or VA - yet they have never run the shows with some stock of their own creation. In the working it's the same thing. People buy titled import dogs - have their litters , claim the dogs can be "anything" but have never worked dogs to get a feel for them, understand what the potentials and needs are for a particular animal. Training , same thing, people get one or two dogs and then hang out their shingle as "trainers" even promoting themselves as specialists in aggression or whatever .


----------



## GSD07

carmspack said:


> Training , same thing, people get one or two dogs and then hang out their shingle as "trainers" even promoting themselves as specialists in aggression or whatever .


 Carmen, you are so right here. Existence and attitude of such 'trainers' upset me the most since they do bring a lot of damage to the dogs. I've seen it, I've experienced it, I personally had to tell certain 'trainers' to not even dare to touch my dog. 

I am pretty relaxed about breeders, they work their stock, not work, for me it's not a huge issue on a larger scale because there is always a way to evaluate a particular dog, pedigree, look at projeny, siblings etc and make a decision based on the dog and not on a breeder or website. 

I understand and agree with the points made in this thread, working the dog better then not, accomplishments and developing the program instead of rotating titled by someone else stock, etc, it's should be in the breeders code of ethics. But 'trainers' and 'behaviorists' with their lack of basic understanding dogs but with big desire to experiment on someone else's dogs really infuriate me. A good trainer is worth his/her weight in gold, though.


----------



## Jag

I've gotten a little fed up with all the "titles, titles, all that matters is titles" attitude myself. You can have people with titled dogs that don't know what they're breeding together and they end up with bad dogs. My breeder happens to train her dogs and work them to 'real life' situations. She's had dogs go to SWAT, the military, police, etc. She KNOWS what she's breeding. I've gotten an excellent pup, but had to deal with a lot of comments that were incorrect and unfounded. My bitch that came from KKL1, Schutz. titled German imports was a total disgrace to the GSD name.. had a screw loose in her head and was DA and HA. So NO, just haven't titles on the parents doesn't mean as much as some think it does. Some breeders actually DO know what their dogs will or will not do. They know the genetic workings of the dogs they breed, and they know what to expect. They have strong working line dogs through the entire pedigree with some of the "heavy hitters" that other, larger kennels also have. I'm extremely happy with my pup. I am NOT going to be a 'pet home' and she prefers working homes for obvious reasons. Sometimes you have to ignore what people say and go with what you know and what you've experienced. It also helps when you have people who are well versed in the same lines and know the breeder to tell you you're on the right track. Some people also don't spend their days updating their websites. I can honestly recommend my breeder because I worked with her, talked to her (still do) and got an excellent, healthy pup with good drive, steel nerves and clear head. Everything I asked for. Sometimes when you get a dog that was bred just for the sport of Schutz., you sacrifice things. IMO, it's not worth it, and not what the GSD was meant to be.


----------



## GSD07

Another thing that puzzles me is that people who just got a puppy go ahead and spread recommendations based on their couple of months old pup. Wouldn't you want to wait and see how your pup matures so you can really assess your dog's temperament/character/trainability/health/drives, etc?


----------



## carmspack

Jag I agree 100% with you. My point is that they buy the titled dogs , or send them out to be worked and titled by someone else , meanwhile having little to no personal experience in training themselves . 
My experience is pretty much what your dog's breeder is, even to the same placements in service and the same comments because I don't have the titles (myself) - but the dogs do in other hands.
I have belonged to clubs - some of the very first in Ontario to offer schutzhund (as was friend Linda Shaw) - then the Ring sports -- . There were some outstanding dogs and dogs that were on the cusp of dangerous , some with issues that were accommodated . Let's say for arguments sake they all titled -- because I can think of some from the last two categories that did , and they were bred . 
Knowing the pedigree is important so that you make good matches -- not all are , no matter how good the scores , the genetics just won't work out .
For the good of the breed the balance has to be brought back and maintained , so that you don't end up with , as Mrs K said a lot of Ferrari's (or whatever) when you need solid durable reliable something else. (on the Epic Fail thread).


----------



## Jax08

GSD07 said:


> Another thing that puzzles me is that people who just got a puppy go ahead and spread recommendations based on their couple of months old pup. Wouldn't you want to wait and see how your pup matures so you can really assess your dog's temperament/character/trainability/health/drives, etc?


I think people get excited and as the dog matures traits that are not what they wanted come out. Kind of like the ppl who buy a washer, plug it in and write a hallelujah review only to have it blow up and flood their first floor a month later.


----------



## carmspack

just had to comment on the web site management - had to laugh at that . Mine still shows pups from a 2010 litter . They are there because they are a good representation of what I have. 2012 , two pups , one is "Nickolas" and the other went to a repeat pet home in Baltimore . I post to this site when I am sitting at desk doing other things -- between everything else. There are web sites where you see the pups from birth almost daily entries -- updated constantly -- that's good and interesting . I spend my time out with the dogs .


----------



## Jax08

Can you find offspring that are titled? If I"m researching a breeder and I want to know what the offspring of the litters have accomplished, is there somewhere to look any of that information up?


----------



## wildo

This has become an interesting rant thread. While I don't happen to think anything you guys are saying is wrong, I don't happen to think everything is right either. And I definitely don't have a clue what breeders you're referring to.

I follow a few channels on youtube, some are very successful. Just last night, a person I follow posted a "We just hit 250,000 subscribers!" video where he showed off his new Harley. Was it a coincidence that he hit 1/4 of a million subscribers and went out and bought a Harley? Some people thought so- and commented as such. The channel owner replied sarcastically that yeah it was a crime that he works two full time jobs and happened to purchase a six year old bike so he could ride with this son. His point was that the snide commenter didn't really know what was going on with him; didn't know about his personal life or how hard he works.

While I understand the perspective about posting puppy pictures as a form of marketing (not saying I agree or disagree), I don't agree with knocking someone because they happen to have a fancy, up-to-date website. And I _completely_ disagree with the idea that those breeders must not be out working their dogs simply because they have a nice website. We all choose what time we can invest with the things we find important.

[EDIT]- as a business (even a hobby business) an up-to-date website is very important, as it's the first line of marketing for many potential buyers. And as an up and coming buyer at some point, an up-to-date website is important to me as a buyer as a good indicator of what I can expect from the breeder. Isn't there some quote similar to: those who keep their house in order keep their affairs in order? Something like that. Maybe I just made that up... haha!


----------



## Liesje

wildo said:


> Isn't there some quote similar to: those who keep their house in order keep their affairs in order? Something like that.


Ha! That made my day


----------



## Jag

carmspack said:


> Jag I agree 100% with you. My point is that they buy the titled dogs , or send them out to be worked and titled by someone else , meanwhile having little to no personal experience in training themselves .
> My experience is pretty much what your dog's breeder is, even to the same placements in service and the same comments because I don't have the titles (myself) - but the dogs do in other hands.
> I have belonged to clubs - some of the very first in Ontario to offer schutzhund (as was friend Linda Shaw) - then the Ring sports -- . There were some outstanding dogs and dogs that were on the cusp of dangerous , some with issues that were accommodated . Let's say for arguments sake they all titled -- because I can think of some from the last two categories that did , and they were bred .
> Knowing the pedigree is important so that you make good matches -- not all are , no matter how good the scores , the genetics just won't work out .
> For the good of the breed the balance has to be brought back and maintained , so that you don't end up with , as Mrs K said a lot of Ferrari's (or whatever) when you need solid durable reliable something else. (on the Epic Fail thread).


I totally agree with you. After reading your posts, you remind me a lot of my breeder, actually. One sticking point is people that buy a dog for sport, the dog doesn't do as well as they want, so that dog goes off to the side and another dog is bought... and it continues. Invest in the dog you have. All the points you've made are things my breeder and I have discussed at length as pet peeves. I *want* to work with my dog, because he's my dog. If I just wanted the title, I could have someone else train him... but where's the fun in that? The dog earns the title, but if you haven't put in the blood, sweat and tears with him then I fail to see the accomplishment. As far as "knowing how they're going to turn out"... it doesn't take a genius to figure out if you've got good nerves, drive, decision making, etc. Also, the breeder should know from evaluating the pup and knowing the lines how the progeny is going to end up. Of course, something could always go wrong, but that doesn't automatically mean the breeder isn't any good or that the parents aren't. Especially if they have a history of producing good dogs. Breeders aren't a god. How they back up that pup is important. I want to connect with a breeder. I want to know in my gut that they aren't blowing smoke. I've been down that road... you live and learn. Do I want a title for my guy? Sure! I think whether or not he gets one speaks more to my ability as a trainer and handler than it does his ability, however, because I know his genetics are good. I think the biggest question is "would you buy another dog from your breeder?" Undoubtedly. Actually, I got my breeder's name from this very thread. I wasn't looking for a 'sport dog' though. I was looking for an all around sound German Shepherd as they were meant to be. I'm not an "in crowd" type of person. Each person has their own set of 'standards' for a breeder. Mine were more than met. I don't think there's anything wrong with recommending a breeder at any certain time. How long should you wait? The whole lifespan of the dog would be optimal, but it's not practical. Also, each dog is different, so what good would that really do?


----------



## wolfstraum

carmspack said:


> just had to comment on the web site management - had to laugh at that . Mine still shows pups from a 2010 litter . They are there because they are a good representation of what I have. 2012 , two pups , one is "Nickolas" and the other went to a repeat pet home in Baltimore . I post to this site when I am sitting at desk doing other things -- between everything else. There are web sites where you see the pups from birth almost daily entries -- updated constantly -- that's good and interesting . I spend my time out with the dogs .



LOL Mine is done in Front Page - and on Win XP - can't find my original FP program from an old old MS Office package - and just can't face starting from scratch in a new software!

Lee


----------



## carmspack

My house is very much in order - if that is what you were making comment on. I take care of what is important. The foundation, the roof , the mechanics. I plan to stay in this house for a long time . Wallpaper won't address a faulty wire behind the wallboard. 
One thing is that people look at the cute vulnerable new little lives and make deposits on pups that haven't even weaned , revealed their personalities to make those good matches . Dogs are not products. They need to get some time behind them , some observation , get to know them , get to know the person who will be adopting them. Best for both the dog and the family. Can't be done this way for show or working .


----------



## carmspack

well Linda Shaw is my web master -- last time we saw each other she handed me a scrap of paper with this long scribble of letters and numbers and some directions so that I could make entries to my web page , which I do want to do to congratulate and recognize the work and achievements of some of my dogs owners . She is too busy with other (exciting) things in the works.
Anybody, anybody at all that wants to know anything about any of my dogs will get personal attention , detailed information, in depth discussion and deep pedigree explanations on the whys and wherefores . As much and as long as it takes -- .


----------



## wildo

I just thought it was a funny quote, Carmen and was meant to be figurative.



carmspack said:


> One thing is that people look at the cute vulnerable new little lives and make deposits on pups that haven't even weaned , revealed their personalities to make those good matches . Dogs are not products. They need to get some time behind them , some observation , get to know them , get to know the person who will be adopting them. Best for both the dog and the family. Can't be done this way for show or working .


I agree with this. Isn't that what most of the breeders recommended are doing? I mean, this thread makes it sound like the "popular" breeders are doing a poor job. But this forum is so heavily focused on "the responsible breeder" -one who observes the litter and pics a pup that fits the needs of the buyer who has been interviewed and deemed worthy of the dog. I'm not sure how this is much different than what you're saying.

Then again, I'm not sure I've recommended any of the breeders here because I _don't_ have personal experience with them. Maybe they aren't "responsibly" selling pups. But how would I know?

I guess my point is that I would have thought that the breeders that are regularly recommended here must be regularly recommended for a reason. From my perspective- a future buyer- my short list contains breeders who make the cut for different reasons. Some have _immense_ amounts of knowledge and produce dogs that _truly_ have the capacity to work (and excel) in more than just SchH. Some are on my list because they produce dogs that consistently have traits that I'm looking for- like speed. Other highly recommended breeders are _not_ on my list because while they have pretty websites and proven dogs, the dogs just don't consistently have the "spark" or energy that I'm looking for. I don't think any of the regularly recommended breeders are continually recommended simply because they have a nice website or are treating dogs as products. At least I don't get that initial impression... I guess I'm saying that we all like different breeders for different reasons.


----------



## Jack's Dad

it's interesting to me that Wildo mentioned looking at breeders who can provide speed as a trait. 

There is nothing wrong with that as a buyer but it is the individual characteristics that different buyers or groups want that are part of the problem.

Most GSD's bred will wind up as pets and what they should be IMO is balanced. There are too many crazy dogs with lousy temperament and owners who can not handle them.

I would recommend adlerstein (that would be Jack's breeder) to anyone wanting what GSD's were meant to be. It's still up to the buyer to check it out and not just go by what someone on the internet says.


----------



## Jax08

I wish Anne was closer to me!


----------



## wildo

Man, I shouldn't have even said it. Every time I mention wanting a fast dog, there's countless replies screaming BALANCE!! 

....Yes, yes, I get it. I also want a balanced dog. A dog that has the nerve to not think my vet wants to murder me (like my dog did today). A dog that has the temperament to be trusted next to infants, toddlers, kids, adults without issue. A dog that has drive and the determination to accomplish the task at hand without being distracted. A dog that has the biddability to want to work WITH me. Yes- I also want a balanced dog. But that does NOT mean I can't have a fast dog at the same time... I just don't get it. Speed does NOT mean out of balance.


----------



## Liesje

I was just going to comment on that as well. I've found that my faster dogs are dogs that are not as deliberative (I can't think of the word for what they ARE). It's not that my faster dogs ARE faster, but a dog like Pan is not as deliberative and discerning as a dog like Nikon or Kenya. The latter two dogs want to figure everything out before they start putting more speed behind their work. A dog like Pan...he might just chase a ball off a cliff (Nikon, no never even though he *has* more ball drive than Pan). But none of these traits means that the dogs are unbalanced and unsettled. The off switch is different, and still desirable regardless of these other things. I've actually thought about this quite a bit lately, having one GSD that runs 3.9 seconds and another (about the same size, trained the exact same way with the same methods and pretty much the same results) running 4.6-4.9. Why is one so much faster when other than the speed the whole thing looks the same? Well one is just not careful and the other is, but neither are monsters at home.


----------



## Jack's Dad

wildo said:


> Man, I shouldn't have even said it. Every time I mention wanting a fast dog, there's countless replies screaming BALANCE!!
> 
> ....Yes, yes, I get it. I also want a balanced dog. A dog that has the nerve to not think my vet wants to murder me (like my dog did today). A dog that has the temperament to be trusted next to infants, toddlers, kids, adults without issue. A dog that has drive and the determination to accomplish the task at hand without being distracted. A dog that has the biddability to want to work WITH me. Yes- I also want a balanced dog. But that does NOT mean I can't have a fast dog at the same time... I just don't get it. Speed does NOT mean out of balance.


Sorry Wildo. It was just an example. 

Again as a buyer there is nothing wrong with looking for a balanced dog with speed. 

I was referring to breeders aiming for specific traits or colors or size or whatever.


----------



## Lilie

I find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be much thought in the fact that the current generation purchasing their first GSD will most likely be the next generation breeding titled dogs. 

I think 'pet' homes should be taken a bit more seriously if for nothing else but for the future of the GSD breed as a whole.


----------



## Liesje

I don't see anything wrong with looking for specific traits. Say there are 5 dogs lined up and all else equal, one is a sable and the other four are black. I'll pick the sable one because I like that better. Who cares if I like a dog that max's out at 70lbs, is more square than long, has dark eyes, etc? I guess I don't feel like these things are mutually exclusive. There ARE breeders out there (and on this very forum) that produce very athletic working dogs that have nice temperaments, look nice, and offer me the specific traits I like. But maybe that's why the buyer has it so much easier than the breeder, who is expected to *never* breed for certain specific traits but always produce exactly what us buyers want.....


----------



## wildo

Gotchya. I understand Jack's Dad. I just hope this thread doesn't turn towards what I want in a dog (that happened the last time I mentioned speed, in ponyfarm's thread). haha! 

I just wanted to provide some more perspective- a fly on the wall kind of perspective. I don't know what breeders you guys are talking about, I really, truly, honestly don't. I honestly thought that the four or five (I'm probably forgetting a couple) breeders that are regularly recommended (in North America anyway) like JohnsonHaus, Wildhaus, Wolfstraum, Cliff, and Carmspack were pretty much as good as it gets. I'm sure there are a couple more that I'm not remembering off hand, but these breeders represent a pretty diverse range in GSDs. I would think more than a few could be classified as fitting under the rants in this thread. I'm just giving my "fly on the wall" perspective having virtually no real extended interaction with any of them. (Full disclosure- I have spoken with Lee, who blows my mind. Freakin' awesome lady! ) I could have (and _have_ actually) easily accepted any of them as a great recommendation. Hey... maybe you guys aren't talking about any of these breeders... 

Again- my only point was to provide an alternative perspective. I figured the "regularly recommended" breeders were regularly recommended for a reason: because they are badass breeders. :thumbup:


----------



## carmspack

I too would recommend Anne the Vandal and Lee of Wolfstraum -- in fact I just got someone looking at Anne's Ikon and getting excited about the "find".

I wish they were closer also. 

Wildo - speed -- the nature of a herding dogs conformation and character comes from endurance - long and far . When speed is required the jet pack is switched on and the job gets done. Speed , dogs built for speed are built differently from a trotting breed . Then , the speed in the GSD comes from the part of the breed which also tends to be reactive and nervy (Thuringian) higher on leg , not so heavy set with bone - so you do loose out on the balance. On the "Nickolas" thread there is a GSD with one flop ear (from damage) running around . That is Paula's , Mike Clay's wifes , competitive agility dog and she has done exceptionally well with her . You should send Mike a PM and ask about her achievements, times, titles.


----------



## wildo

carmspack said:


> Wildo - ... Then , the speed in the GSD comes from the part of the breed which also tends to be reactive and nervy (Thuringian) higher on leg , not so heavy set with bone - so you do loose out on the balance.


Now THIS is new and interesting info for me to look into Carmen, and finally I understand why you continue to harp on me about speed... (not that I'm giving up on my need for... well, you get it!) lol!! I'll take this offline and PM you sometime for some more resources on this. Thanks! 

Actually- sounds interesting enough to have a public conversation. See here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ian-gsd-lines-nervy-but-fast.html#post2595365


----------



## Smithie86

Stefan Schaub said:


> where are all these people who handle thes dogs day for day on duty? if you do not know your line how do you want breed,if you not know what your dogs produce,good and bad things how can you make it better.if you do not train your dogs in any kind of work/sport how can you know if they are working dogs.


:happyboogie::toasting:


----------



## Smithie86

wolfstraum said:


> LOL Mine is done in Front Page - and on Win XP - can't find my original FP program from an old old MS Office package - and just can't face starting from scratch in a new software!
> 
> Lee




Because, we focus on the dogs.......:happyboogie:


----------



## cliffson1

People ask me all the time why I don't have a website....read this thread and you start to get a picture.....I have not personally bred a litter since 2008, though I have helped others in this area. I really am not interested in meeting the standard or criteria of many Internet experts. At the end of the day, my commitment is to the breed and the dogs. Pet owners are very important in maintaining the breed for a variety of reasons, in particular because all of our dogs can't go into working, show or sport home. Pet breeders are an entirely different subject, and are a drag on the breed whether they use titled dogs or BY dogs. And if you don't know the difference.....you still have some learning to do before you get irate at anybody:wub:.


----------



## Lilie

cliffson1 said:


> People ask me all the time why I don't have a website....read this thread and you start to get a picture.....I have not personally bred a litter since 2008, though I have helped others in this area. I really am not interested in meeting the standard or criteria of many Internet experts. At the end of the day, my commitment is to the breed and the dogs. Pet owners are very important in maintaining the breed for a variety of reasons, in particular because all of our dogs can't go into working, show or sport home. Pet breeders are an entirely different subject, and are a drag on the breed whether they use titled dogs or BY dogs. And if you don't know the difference.....you still have some learning to do before you get irate at anybody:wub:.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Lakl

This thread should of been titled "Bob and Weave" cause there were jabs being thrown everywhere! Lol.

Very good points made by many and a very interesting read!


----------



## RocketDog

Agreed. Extremely interesting.


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> People ask me all the time why I don't have a website....read this thread and you start to get a picture.....I have not personally bred a litter since 2008, though I have helped others in this area. I really am not interested in meeting the standard or criteria of many Internet experts. At the end of the day, my commitment is to the breed and the dogs. Pet owners are very important in maintaining the breed for a variety of reasons, in particular because all of our dogs can't go into working, show or sport home. Pet breeders are an entirely different subject, and are a drag on the breed whether they use titled dogs or BY dogs. And if you don't know the difference.....you still have some learning to do before you get irate at anybody:wub:.


You are not the only one that doesn't have a website. There are tons of good old breeders back in Germany that don't have a website either. Kassler Kreuz is one of them. 
Sometimes its about knowing people and how to get in touch with them. 

Websites are a great tool and one thing I like looking at, is the dogs they have and Stefan is right about one thing. 

If there is a kennel, that is recommended over and over again and they have 6 or 7 females and not ONE female is out of their own breeding than that raises questions. If they bred so many litters, there wasn't a single female they kept for themselves? Instead they went outside, yet again, to get another female from a different kennel? Plus all these dogs have the ZVV, which means you didn't even title them yourself. 

Why? What's wrong with your own dogs?

I am pretty sure most people, that start out looking for a responsible breeder, don't even know how to look at a breeder and a website can't answer these questions, so you still have to talk to them.


----------



## BrianB

I wouldnt buy a GSD from someone unless I knew they worked their dogs and what they worked the dogs for. Even the working line GSD has been pulled to far one way or the other. For me, I would be hesitant to buy a dog from a top "SCH" dog litter with all the titles and trophies in the world. But I dont plan to compete in any world class trails.

Are there any trials for seeing eye dog german shepherds? Where can I get one of these dogs? They are calm, intelligent, balanced and extremely trainable!!! Not some crazy nut job land shark you have to run 10 miles a day (and I think that just builds up their stamina, so doesnt really work!!)


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Seeing Eye Dogs go thru the foster process then are tested within the organization as to whether they will pass or wash out. 

Fidelco here in CT uses only german shepherds. I have had two dogs out of stud dogs used in their program. (not wash outs, outside breedings) Very stable/balanced/sensible dogs. 

BJDimmock (member here, not sure she still is active here ) is a foster for Fidelco and I believe Crooked Creek(member here) has donated 2-3 of her puppies to Fidelco. 

You can apply to Fidelco to adopt a dog that for whatever reason doesn't make the cut. I imagine there is a long waiting list tho, not sure..I know of 3 people in my immediate town who have adopted Fidelco dogs , all very nice dogs.. Check the Fidelco Guide Dog Site.


----------



## wolfstraum

BrianB said:


> I wouldnt buy a GSD from someone unless I knew they worked their dogs and what they worked the dogs for. Even the working line GSD has been pulled to far one way or the other. For me, I would be hesitant to buy a dog from a top "SCH" dog litter with all the titles and trophies in the world. But I dont plan to compete in any world class trails.
> 
> Are there any trials for seeing eye dog german shepherds? Where can I get one of these dogs? They are calm, intelligent, balanced and extremely trainable!!! Not some crazy nut job land shark you have to run 10 miles a day (and I think that just builds up their stamina, so doesnt really work!!)



We all complain about showline breeders ignoring the work and only breeding for structure/color.....well working line breeders can be just as bad when all they look for is extreme drive! A good dog can settle in the house and hang out and still go out and rock on the field! Personally, I cannot stand "busy" dogs....mine have to settle in the house, and I would wash out a dog for breeding who would not settle just as quickly as one who could not work or had some serious temperament flaw. There is more to choosing a WL dog than how many BSP dogs are in the pedigree.

Lee


----------



## cliffson1

Thank you Lee!!


----------



## carmspack

ms Wolfstraum said "Personally, I cannot stand "busy" dogs....mine have to settle in the house, and I would wash out a dog for breeding who would not settle just as quickly as one who could not work or had some serious temperament flaw. There is more to choosing a WL dog than how many BSP dogs are in the pedigree."

So would I !!! and I have done so. I just cannot stand a spinning, constantly barking , whining, squealing, whistling dog . They need to work , love it , be serious, and then they need to be calm. On the "Nickolas" thread Mike mentioned taking his dogs out training they come out of the van ready to to work with energy and enthusiasm and power - and then they settle down .
That's part of the balance and being able to live with a dog .


----------



## onyx'girl

Though some dogs are only "brought out" to work, so spin, bark and whine when crated/or kenneled and when out of their box, because they are contained so much, it is hard on their psyche to be able to settle. 

I think a balance is achieved when the dog is allowed to _be able_ to settle. And not forced to because they are in their box. If I kept my male crated or kenneled, I know I'd have a much different dog than the one that is allowed to roam freely through the house and play with my other dogs.


----------



## carmspack

I let an entire litter and their (recently imported) dam go to a friend who mainly deals with malinois , who had customers looking for 'this' kind of dog. The best I can describe them is malinois-like , which is NOT GSD, nor desirable , not the breed profile . I can not stand a busy hectic dog , with hyperkinetic useless activity. I sure don't want to bring it in to my breeding program. Gave them the best of everything I had to offer, eating more time resources than the rest of my dogs , even after lots of opportunity to blow off energy and be in outdoor kennels 12 x 12 individually , so lots of space to move about , for 10 hours , when they were brought in and crated they reacted to every movement and were spinning and barking all hours .
I post very late at night because I go to my two storey finished barn flick on the lights and let the dog (s) of the day (or litter) run around , fetch up and down the staircase, run in circles around partitions , jump over bales of straw , or go on the treadmill - your general mayhem . Meanwhile I might be spinning or on a trampoline or hiding things in a kitchenette or closed down bathroom dedicated to "hides" and allowing future working dogs to be uninhibited with counter surfing etc.
In the main house , uh uh, different rules . Manners needed .


----------

