# Concerning Breeder



## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Hi Guys,

I'm new to this site, but I'm hoping you can weigh in on a concern I have about the breeder from which I got my puppy.

I bought a 4 month old GSD puppy from a breeder I found on Kijiji. There were 2 puppies left from the litter, and they were 4 months old. The ad said CKC German Shepherd Puppies and "Great temperaments, raised with kids, cats and other dogs. Vet checked, shots, dewormed, tattooed, non-breeding. Lifetime health/temperament guarantee." 

There were 2 puppies - 1 hyper male for $1400, and a more reserved male for $1000. The breeder said the price reduction because he would always hide back when people came to view the puppies, and they were getting a little older. 

Sitka (the discounted pup) is the one I brought home. He has overcome his skittishness, but he's now displaying signs of hip dysplasia.

Here are my concerns about the breeder in pros and cons:

Pros: 
- CKC Registered
- Visited Breeders house - big yard
- When I googled breeders name and "GSD puppies" a Kennel name and her photo came up multiple time from from 5-10 years ago
- non-breeding clause
- thorough contract
- promised 24/7 life-long breeder support
- said she had 17 years experience
- had pup xrayed an on crate rest for 1 week before I could take him home after he hurt his paw jumping off 1 step on the outside deck
- had 1 adult female and 2 older puppies that all seemed healthy with good behaviour

Cons:
- did not meet dam - breeder said she was at a "guardians" house. 
- was never allowed inside the house. Breeder was very careful of not letting me even peak inside the house. There was another litter just born inside. I could see the heat lamp, and can now find those puppies on Kijiji. The breeder has an autistic daughter, so that may have added to not letting me see inside
- I met the sire when I went back to pick up Sitka, but he was kept behind a fence because he "doesn't have patience with puppies"
- It's been 2 months and I have still not received official CKC certificate
- I tried to contact breeder about CKC certificate but breeder will not return my texts
- Puppies that are now for sale on Kijiji look disarmingly like Sitka (maybe the same dam :/


My biggest concern is that Sitka's HD problems may have been heriditary - information which was not disclosed at the time. If this breeder is unethical that information should be known. 

Also, some family of mine is looking into a GSD puppy. If this breeder is unethical, I certainly want to know dissuade them from going to her.

Would you be concerned about this breeder?

I appreciate any and all comments about this .


Thank you,

Ruth & Sitka


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Well, I think if you were to contact the breeder and to mention that one of your famiy members is interested in a gsd puppy, you will be sure to receive a prompt response. Then you could discuss your other concerns. For Sitka's HD symptoms, if you haven't already done so, I would suggest to have Sitka examined by a vet to determine if it is really HD or perhaps it is only pano or related to his previous injury. Yes, HD can be heriditary but it also can be caused by an injury. Your post mentioned that the ad for the breeder included "Lifetime health/temperament guarantee" so that should have some type of reference to HD. For the breeder not allowing you inside the house where a litter of puppies was just born, that is understandable due to the high risk of disease. I suspect Sitka's dam may be co-owned so that is why she is living at the other owner's house. Not all dogs are good with puppies, so again I can understand when you came to pick up Sitka that the sire was behind a fence. For the new litter looking like Sitka, they could share the same sire. Aside from her slowness with the paperwork and to respond to your inquiries, and taking into consideration that she was upfront with you about Sitka, I do not at all think that she is unethical.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

The ckc paperwork is for the Canadian kennel club and not the continental kennel club?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

first off, I would answer the above question....second, how old is this puppy? third, the only way to know for sure if this puppy had HD, is to xray,,right now he may be to young to do so..if he fell off a deck, he could have injured himself with a permanent injury..Personally I would not buy a dog off Kiiji..but to get to your question...Xray is the only true way to tell..puppies are sloppy walkers and you don't mention how old sitka is.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

CKC is for the Canadian Kennel Club


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Mary Beth said:


> Well, I think if you were to contact the breeder and to mention that one of your famiy members is interested in a gsd puppy, you will be sure to receive a prompt response. Then you could discuss your other concerns. For Sitka's HD symptoms, if you haven't already done so, I would suggest to have Sitka examined by a vet to determine if it is really HD or perhaps it is only pano or related to his previous injury. Yes, HD can be heriditary but it also can be caused by an injury. Your post mentioned that the ad for the breeder included "Lifetime health/temperament guarantee" so that should have some type of reference to HD. For the breeder not allowing you inside the house where a litter of puppies was just born, that is understandable due to the high risk of disease. I suspect Sitka's dam may be co-owned so that is why she is living at the other owner's house. Not all dogs are good with puppies, so again I can understand when you came to pick up Sitka that the sire was behind a fence. For the new litter looking like Sitka, they could share the same sire. Aside from her slowness with the paperwork and to respond to your inquiries, and taking into consideration that she was upfront with you about Sitka, I do not at all think that she is unethical.



Thank you so much for your detailed response. 

I still have not heard back from the breeder - I will try letting her know that my family member is interested in getting a puppy to speed up the response time.

The vet examined him physically (pressing on his hips) and said he could not feel anything amiss at that moment. I do plan to have Sitka's hips xrayed when he is neutered (he just turned 6 months old) but I am concerned about exercising him too much if he does indeed have HD.


In my contract it says that HD is covered, but that if hip problems are discovered the puppy will be returned to the breeder, euthanized, and replaced with a new puppy of equal value, but not equal age. I don't want to replace my puppy - Sitka is a member of my family now, not just a purchase to be returned!

You response an explanation of some of the actions of the breeder has reassured me. Thank you very much. 

I'll post again once I hear a response from the breeder.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why do you feel that you need to be in this person's home?


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Thanks for the response.

Sitka just turned 6 months old. He was 16 weeks when he feel off the deck and injured his right forepaw. He was xrayed then, with those xrays sent to a radiologist, and nothing was broken but the notes say there may have been a slight fracture. He hasn't shown any injury to his front legs since then. 

I will get his hips xrayed when he is neutered in the next few months, I just worry about over exerting him with exercise if he does, indeed, have HD.

Thanks again,

Ruth


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Why do you feel that you need to be in this person's home?


I wouldn't say I feel the need -- I have read often than that breeder should always let you see where the pups are raised. As I mentioned, I did see the outdoor area where they were raised, and I understood that there were other puppies in the home. I was simply asking if I should be concerned that I was not able to enter the home.

The previous responder explained that because of the risk of disease it makes sense I wouldn't be allowed in.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to be fair 

you do NOT know if the pup has HD .

that can be determined by x-ray . To enforce a guarantee it has to be x rayed , not speculation.

to this statement
"My biggest concern is that Sitka's HD problems may have been heriditary - information which was not disclosed at the time. If this breeder is unethical that information should be known."

It is not that simple. 
Even dogs that have both sire and dam x rayed and certified excellent can still have HD , and conversely  a dog with
both sire and dam with Grade 2 or 3 -- can have good (certification evaluation good) hips.

jumping off the deck and injuring his paw might have had an impact on the rear also and he is feeling pain .

which brings me to this question WHAT signs of hip dysplasia are you seeing .

there are dogs that do not ever show any signs -- and live out long and rugged lives .

this is from Videx German shepherds and probably has the best HD information available.

CANINE HIP DYSPLASIA

A returned puppy is not a euthanized puppy . 

Get the facts .

AND before you neuter at a young age , or maybe after learning a thing or two you may not neuter at all -- get the facts .

There are lots of threads on the forum.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

*Symptoms and HD Concerns*



carmspack said:


> to be fair
> 
> you do NOT know if the pup has HD .
> 
> ...



You're absolutely write - I don't know if he has HD -- I'm a little concern, and trying to get as much advice from the public as possible. As mentioned, I have been, and continue to, try to contact the breeder as that will be my best bet for the hereditary information. 

I realize things aren't black and white, or as simple as HD = unethical breeder. My apologies if my thread came off like that. I am trying to get as many facts and perspectives as possible, hence posting on a public forum to hear differing points of view. 

I have seen the following "symptoms" of HD. I am a new GSD owner, and though I have read many books on GSDs and started to research HD, I by no means consider myself an expert... I'm just an overly-concerned, nervous new pupparent:

-- "bunny hopping" when running; at the dog park his gate is very different than the other dogs when running at full sprint - his hind legs move in unison rather than one after the other
-- very nervous/ slow on stairs - I live n a basement suite (we moved here when he was 5 months); most days he walks down the stairs very slowly making sure both hind legs are on one stair before moving onto the next. If we have gone for a walk or a hike before, he whines at the top of the stairs as if he doesn't want to come down. He has no problems going up the stairs, he just goes slowly
-- limps the day after a walk. If we go for a 45 minute casual walk/hike in the evening, he seems to limp a little the next day. While his limp is almost imperceptible, I can notice it. I can also hear that the nails on one of his hind paws scrape the pavement when he seems to be limping
-- He tires easily. While most puppies I see seem to have endless energy, he is pretty well done after a 30-45 minute walk. After some rest time his energy comes back, but not for a few hours. 
-- Whimpers/Cries easily. As mentioned, I have stopped taking him to the dog park (at least for a while), but when I did, if another dog ran and bumped into his hips, or if he fell onto his hind end/hips, he would cry quite quickly.

As mentioned, euthanizing him is not an option to me, but it is what it says in my contract if I were to return him to the breeder re: guarantee. I won't do this.

I plan to neuter him at 12 months of age.

I'm trying to get the facts!
:O


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I would think pano more than I would think HD. I'm not saying he isn't dysplastic, but don't let that be your only conclusion. If it is pano, crate rest for a bit is advised, usually. Get him to the vet.

The other thing I want to address is his issue going down the stairs. You stated he was the shy, fearful pup from the litter. My guess is his issue with stairs could stem from that lack of confidence.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> I would think pano more than I would think HD. I'm not saying he isn't dysplastic, but don't let that be your only conclusion. If it is pano, crate rest for a bit is advised, usually. Get him to the vet.
> 
> The other thing I want to address is his issue going down the stairs. You stated he was the shy, fearful pup from the litter. My guess is his issue with stairs could stem from that lack of confidence.


I had not heard of Pano until this thread, but upon looking it up it does seem that his symptoms are in line with this. Thank you -- I will reduce his activity until I can get him to the vet. 

I've been taking him for 2 30-45 minute walks each day, or one walk and one half hour of fetch. Maybe I'll shorten it to 1 short walk in the morning and one longer one in the evening. He is in his kennel during the day when I'm at work, so he has plenty of time to rest in between.

That is a good point that his stair issues might come from his lack of confidence. This is definitely an issue we'll be working on - he has a fun habit of barking at noises in a burst of confidence then running to his kennel or between my legs, as though his own bark has startled him!

Do you have any advice on ways to increase his confidence?

Thanks


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "I realize things aren't black and white, or as simple as HD = unethical breeder"

nor is it as black and white , or as simple as awkward movement = HD

it could be Panosteitis - it could be soft tissue -- only the x ray will reveal.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

SitkatheGSD said:


> I had not heard of Pano until this thread, but upon looking it up it does seem that his symptoms are in line with this. Thank you -- I will reduce his activity until I can get him to the vet.
> 
> I've been taking him for 2 30-45 minute walks each day, or one walk and one half hour of fetch. Maybe I'll shorten it to 1 short walk in the morning and one longer one in the evening. He is in his kennel during the day when I'm at work, so he has plenty of time to rest in between.
> 
> ...


Work on engagement. Anything you can do that lets him win, so to speak, is a good idea. I would suggest starting him in some sort of activity... nosework, rally, puppy agility. Something that will strengthen your bond while proving to him he can do things. Agility might be a little much for him, if he is skittish with stairs, but you never know. Nosework is great for confidence building.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Work on engagement. Anything you can do that lets him win, so to speak, is a good idea. I would suggest starting him in some sort of activity... nosework, rally, puppy agility. Something that will strengthen your bond while proving to him he can do things. Agility might be a little much for him, if he is skittish with stairs, but you never know. Nosework is great for confidence building.




That's good advice, Thank you. Unfortunately, we have moved around alot since I brought him home, so I haven't had the chance to join him in anything. We go on plenty of walks and play fetch/training everyday. He is well socialized with other dogs, but I've reined back the dog park a little bit because of hip concern, and I found he wanted to play with every dog on the street the same way he plays with them at the park!

I will be starting him in obedience training that also introduces agility training in 2.5 weeks so hopefully that helps.

When you say nosework helps, does that have to be tracking practice? I've read that he should not be allowed to walk nose-to-the-ground while on heel so I've been trying to stop that, but maybe I should relax a bit :/

Thanks for the advice!


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

SitkatheGSD said:


> That's good advice, Thank you. Unfortunately, we have moved around alot since I brought him home, so I haven't had the chance to join him in anything. We go on plenty of walks and play fetch/training everyday. He is well socialized with other dogs, but I've reined back the dog park a little bit because of hip concern, and I found he wanted to play with every dog on the street the same way he plays with them at the park!
> 
> I will be starting him in obedience training that also introduces agility training in 2.5 weeks so hopefully that helps.
> 
> ...


Nosework is different than tracking. It's a detection sport where your dog finds a target odor. With NACSW, the odors are birch, anise and clove. You can learn more about it here, if you are interested:

http://www.nacsw.net

A dog should be able to learn tracking and not have that bleed over into how they walk on lead. Both of my GSDs do tracking and neither of them sniff incessantly on walks. It's a matter of teaching what you want your dog to do while on walks, and teaching tracking separately, if that is a route you want to go. My dogs also wear harnesses for nosework and a bottcher harness for tracking. They know what the equipment means. No harnesses on walks.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Nosework is different than tracking. It's a detection sport where your dog finds a target odor. With NACSW, the odors are birch, anise and clove. You can learn more about it here, if you are interested:
> 
> http://www.nacsw.net
> 
> A dog should be able to learn tracking and not have that bleed over into how they walk on lead. Both of my GSDs do tracking and neither of them sniff incessantly on walks. It's a matter of teaching what you want your dog to do while on walks, and teaching tracking separately, if that is a route you want to go. My dogs also wear harnesses for nosework and a bottcher harness for tracking. They know what the equipment means. No harnesses on walks.


Thanks for the link -- I will check this out for sure.

I don't use a harness on walks - I guess we'll just keep working on distracted lead walking!

Thanks


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

When buying a puppy, people shouldn't bargain shop. 
Let him sniff and explore. He's a puppy, he needs to explore.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Noseworks is a great option for less confident or reactive dogs. Most classes will require dogs be crated or remain in the owner's vehicle until it is their turn. This makes for a much calmer class atmosphere vs many other group classes which can become a bit of a barkfest if the instructor doesn't screen well.

Here are some articles about behavioral benefits of NW:

The Behavioral Benefits of Nosework | Scentsabilities Nosework | Stacy Barnett

Why Nosework Works | Scentsabilities Nosework | Stacy Barnett

Nosework and the Fearful Dog | Scentsabilities Nosework | Stacy Barnett

Scentsabilities Nosework Podcast » Blog Archive » How Nosework Benefits the Reactive Dog


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Bramble said:


> Noseworks is a great option for less confident or reactive dogs. Most classes will require dogs be crated or remain in the owner's vehicle until it is their turn. This makes for a much calmer class atmosphere vs many other group classes which can become a bit of a barkfest if the instructor doesn't screen well.
> 
> Here are some articles about behavioral benefits of NW:
> 
> ...



Thank you! These are all very helpful


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> When buying a puppy, people shouldn't bargain shop.
> Let him sniff and explore. He's a puppy, he needs to explore.


Agreed. But when buying a puppy, people should find one that is similar to their own personality; an owner who is not particularly social, would not do well to have a highly social dog. 

Don't assume I've "bargain shopped" - I picked Sitka based on his energy level and sociability. 

You're right about puppies having to sniff and explore though -- we'll work on finding a balance.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Your Welcome! NW is also very easy to train at home on your own, and doesn't require a big investment for equipment.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Agreed. But when buying a puppy, people should find one that is similar to their own personality; an owner who is not particularly social, would not do well to have a highly social dog.
> 
> Don't assume I've "bargain shopped" - I picked Sitka based on his energy level and sociability.
> 
> You're right about puppies having to sniff and explore though -- we'll work on finding a balance.


I'm in no way trying to berate or disparage you with my next statement, it's just that I see this sentiment expressed frequently, and I disagree. Whole heartedly.

Most GSDs are not going to end up being social butterflies. Most, by and large, simply want nothing to do with people that are not "theirs". Of course some will be more social, but as a rule, they won't be dragging you across the street to say hello to everyone you pass.

When you pick a cautious, reserved pup, you are very likely to end up with a dog that has weak nerves and fear issues. A lot of people think that picking the reserved puppy means they just won't be social, and then they run into problems down the road because the puppy lacks confidence. You can work on this, sure, but a lot of the time, it's genetic and will not magically disappear one day.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Bramble said:


> Your Welcome! NW is also very easy to train at home on your own, and doesn't require a big investment for equipment.



Great advice - so helpful! I'm going to try this and I'll report back!


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> I'm in no way trying to berate or disparage you with my next statement, it's just that I see this sentiment expressed frequently, and I disagree. Whole heartedly.
> 
> Most GSDs are not going to end up being social butterflies. Most, by and large, simply want nothing to do with people that are not "theirs". Of course some will be more social, but as a rule, they won't be dragging you across the street to say hello to everyone you pass.
> 
> When you pick a cautious, reserved pup, you are very likely to end up with a dog that has weak nerves and fear issues. A lot of people think that picking the reserved puppy means they just won't be social, and then they run into problems down the road because the puppy lacks confidence. You can work on this, sure, but a lot of the time, it's genetic and will not magically disappear one day.


Ok. Thanks for your honest opinion. Matching your puppies personality and energy level to your's is something I had read many times and so was definitely the main factor when I picked Sitka up. I may not make my decision the same way for my next pup, though that won't be for many years.

I am very happy with Sitka's energy level. Even in large groups of people, he is calm and reserved - strangers comment on it all the time. The only time he shows over-excitement is, lately, when we see other dogs while on a leash and he wants to play with them.

Of course a single example is not enough to impact the whole, I don't think Sitka has social issues. He is friendly with people, even strangers, and is patient with children. He loves being around other dogs, often too much, and has never shown any aggression towards people or dogs. 

Many of the things he was scared of before, he has gotten over. Loud noises, bicycles, cars, and large dogs don't intimidate him at all.

His confidence, though, seems to need some work. I will spend a lot more time looking into how to build confidence.

I do appreciate the honest, constructive feedback.

Thank you


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Ok. Thanks for your honest opinion. Matching your puppies personality and energy level to your's is something I had read many times and so was definitely the main factor when I picked Sitka up. I may not make my decision the same way for my next pup, though that won't be for many years.
> 
> I am very happy with Sitka's energy level. Even in large groups of people, he is calm and reserved - strangers comment on it all the time. The only time he shows over-excitement is, lately, when we see other dogs while on a leash and he wants to play with them.
> 
> ...


I'm glad that Sitka seems to be getting over things, and that he does well with people and crowds so far. My statement was more in general, for other people thinking they should pick the reserved puppy. I truly hope Sitka continues to gain confidence as he grows!

This is why many reputable breeders match the puppies to their new owners instead of letting the buyer pick. They have been with the puppies every day of their lives and know far more about their personalities than the buyer could after spending a short amount of time with the litter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It CAN also be HD. Some of the things you are saying, the bunny hopping, could be puppy running, could be a problem. Could be pano. The thing is to get an x-ray. Yes, you can x-ray the hips now, but there is a lot of growing and changing going to happen. But, seeing what is going on now is probably not a bad idea.

Carmen is very good with nutrition and supplements. IF your pup has dysplasia, then she could probably tell you some really good things to feed your dog that will give him the best chance at getting the best out of his hips. Sometimes we feed all the wrong stuff, and a dog with mild HD might be suffering, when if we were feeding better stuff, the mild HD might not be noticeable. Yes, lots of dogs live all their lives with HD and are A-symptomatic. 

But there are things we do or don't do both in nutrition and in exercise or lack thereof, that can make our less than perfect hips be more or less problematic. 

Addressing some of your other concerns:
Not possible, if the pups she is advertising on Kiji are 4 weeks old or more, than it is very unlikely that it is from the same dam. That wouldn't be the end of the world if she bred back to back. It does not hurt them, but most bitches have at least 6 months between heat cycles, so unless these pups she is advertising are a day or two old, they are not from the same dam. 

And, as for not having the dam, well, some breeders will place bitches with people who want to breed their bitch, maybe just once, or maybe on a co-ownership. The breeder with the lines and experience, can help the bitch's owner with whelping and selling puppies, selecting a mate, etc. And the bitch then has a home, instead of being one of a dozen or more dogs barking and carrying on. It could be the best of all worlds, but mostly for the bitch. The bitch's owners agree to have only 1 or 2 other dogs, agree to train, and or show the bitch, agree to only breed if the breeder approves of the bitch and the selected stud dog, etc. For me, this would be a GREEN flag, not a red flag. 

If I had questions about this set up, I would ask the breeder how the arrangement works -- nothing too personal. Just, whether she is a co-owner or if she selects the breeding pair, etc. I see it as a way of working with your lines and not being overwhelmed with dogs. Which means the dogs you have get more attention, training, etc. The puppies you raise get more hands on, and the bitches/dogs that you have _arrangements _with, have families of their own, and probably a great life.

About being inside the breeder's home. Yes, with puppies on the ground, I can see not wanting more people in there. But even without, it is not the end of the world. I guess the point is, no one wants to buy a puppy from a flea-infested, rat infested, hoarding house where the smell of urine in the walls etc. 

And if they won't let you in, that could be the case. Or, it could be that the daughter is autistic and really doesn't manage strangers in the home well. Or it could be, that she is raising the autistic daughter alone, and doesn't trust strangers in her home. Even with GSDs. There have been a couple of times I seriously consdered asking my dad to come over -- the time the guy called at 5PM and said he'd drive up from Syracuse, NY. Yep, got there after 11PM. I didn't know this guy from Adam. He had a kid with him. I let him in. And all was well, but it really just depends on how comfortable people are sometimes. So this is not a red flag for me. It's yellow. If, talking to the person, I either trust them or not. Seeing the inside of their home is not a make or break deal. 

Now if they come to look at the puppies, and they aren't buying, there is no reason to be inside, unless it is raining or snowing outside. We go inside to do the paperwork. If there is no paperwork, then we do not need to go inside. It IS our home. I don't like to go the bathroom anywhere but my home. I rarely go to the bathroom at work. I'm weird that way. If I must. But at home it's my own cooties. I really don't want to let the general public in to use my can or for any other reason. But of course if you are driving here for hours, and someone's got to go, kid's got to go, that's what I have a strong box for. 

Kid is in your bathroom, and you are in the kitchen working on paper-work, you don't know, you can't leave money or anything small and valuable, or ammunition out when the shot gun's in the corner. So, yes, before strangers come, I clean the bathroom, because like it our not, they may ask to use it. I lock my diamonds up (LOL). If I have cash I put it in the box -- sometimes you do sell two puppies on the same day. And the whole box of shells goes in, and I check the gun, to make sure that there will be NO accidents. The gun is kind of in a place where you'd almost have to know it was there, but kids see everything. Just not worth it. 

But really, I'd rather not let the whole house be open to strangers. Anyhow, this would not bother me, not letting strangers in especially with a new litter and an autistic daughter. 

Not CKC processes. Does the litter-owner register all her puppies for her buyers and then they send the papers to the buyers? Does she wait until all pups are sold to get some sort of discount for registering them all? I give the registration application to each buyer and they send it in. Some people in AKC register for the buyers. I suppose there are pros and cons, not sure how that works, whether you have to register the lot of them at once. With AKC, the only time I did not have the paperwork at the time the pup was ready, was when we were dealing with an imported bitch whose puppy was conceived prior to shipment. AKC is pretty quick. But then, you still have to send the paperwork in. In short, not sure if this is a problem or not.

I don't know whether she texts -- not my mode of communication. I hate texts. But, if the phone accepts them, then I will answer them, but not while I am working. It sounds like she has a litter of puppies, and I don't know if she is working as well. It sounds like she has her hands full with a special-needs child. But she should get back to you within a few days. Unless you've been giving her a brain-tumor, calling every other day. 

Is the male being behind a fence a problem. Maybe. Maybe not. Dogs, sires do not have to play nice with puppies. The sire's job is over when he provides his sperm. But, you should be able to see the sire -- put the puppy in a crate in the yard, in the car, weather permitting, and meet the sire. Having the dog behind a gate so that the dam and pups are not bothered by him, fine, but you should be able to meet the boy. 

Your dog was discounted because it was showing signs of shyness -- that is generally a temperament issue, and inherited. Usually, you would want to see the sire and the dam of a puppy that is displaying poor temperament. Most of us would have paid the $400 extra or passed on the litter, rather than take a chance on that issue. But those pups need homes too, so i am glad you got him, and I hope that he is everything you hoped and wished for.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Wow Seltzer,

Thank you so much for you detailed response! I'm so happy I've found this site to be able to converse with those more experience, like yourself.

I will definitely be getting Sitka's hips xrayed. I'd like to do it at the same as he gets neutered (around 12 months), but if I see any increase or change to his Hip symptoms I'll arrange to have it done sooner. 

From what you and others have said, I'm not nearly as concerned about the breeder. 

Considering the two puppies left were 16 weeks, and not 8 weeks, I'm not surprised I wasn't able to meet the dam. I also wouldn't be surprised if the breeder had shared ownership over the dam for reasons of lines, etc. The breeder was very knowledgeable about the lines - she told me quite a bit about Sitka's line re: working or show. She also went off on a tangent about the other female, sable colored shepherd she had in the yard whom she was waiting to breed. She had kept that dog (the sable) from a previous litter wherein she had imported the semen from some extremely prestigious line in Europe and had the dam artificially inseminated. 

All the puppies in the litter were CKC registered. I received a registration confirmation. The breeder said she would then email papers off to CKC to get the certificate which would then be sent to me. I asked her about what would happen if I never received the certificate, and she mentioned then that I could go directly to CKC, so I may just have to do that.

The breeder does text. She specifies in her ad that text is preferred but phone is ok. I have called twice and left 2 text messages since last Thursday (1 week). I will wait a few more weeks before trying to contact her again - things happen, maybe she's busy.

I did pick Sitka because of his temperment. The other puppy left was incredibly hyper, jumping literally on top of Sitka jumping all over me, nipping at my fingers, running in circles around the yard. From what I've read this puppy would be more sought after for being fear-less, confident, and active, but regardless of price I just didn't feel that puppy would be a good fit for me. 

And thankyou, as you say, Sitka might not have the temperment that one should look for when getting a puppy, but he needed a home too. I am so happy with him, I couldn't be more proud. I even made him his own Instagram account!! ( @SitkatheGSD <-- check it out!). He is the most important thing in my life at the moment, the best companion I could ask for when living in an unfamiliar city where I know absolutely no one. And I will do everything in my power to increase his confidence and give him the best life possible.

Thanks GSD Community!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

SitkatheGSD said:


> Agreed. But when buying a puppy, people should find one that is similar to their own personality; an owner who is not particularly social, would not do well to have a highly social dog.
> 
> Don't assume I've "bargain shopped" - I picked Sitka based on his energy level and sociability.
> 
> You're right about puppies having to sniff and explore though -- we'll work on finding a balance.


A person should pick a breed based on their personality. A confident outgoing puppy will be a confident adult. A puppy that hides as a puppy won't necessarily be. 
Do you have a link to where you read this?
I apologize for assuming, but it was mentioned, so....


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> A person should pick a breed based on their personality. A confident outgoing puppy will be a confident adult. A puppy that hides as a puppy won't necessarily be.
> Do you have a link to where you read this?
> I apologize for assuming, but it was mentioned, so....


No problem at all - as mentioned, I'm realizing more and more that he isn't the puppy most would have chosen. Regardless, he is mine now, in a happy and loving hoe so we'll do everything we can to make him the proud, confident GSD he should be.

As for citing a source, the book "Your German Shepherd Puppy: Month by Month" by Liz Palika, Terry Albert, and Joanne Oliver says "German Shepherds range in temperament from very bold and outgoing to quiet and more reserved. When deciding on a puppy, choose one with a temperament that will work well with or flatter your own. If you select a puppy with a temperament very different from your own, the two of you will clash and the relationship will suffer. For example, if you tend to be quiet and reserved yourself, don't take home the biggest, boldest, most outgoing puppy. Although you make think he would help pull you out of your shell, he might make you awkward.
"A better choice might be a puppy who is just a little more outgoing than you. This puppy could help you be a little more extroverted without making you feel threatened, The same applies to you if you're a natural extrovert. Don't get a reserved puppy; you would make him feel uncomfortable all the time."

I'm afraid my post has given the impression that Sitka is far more nervous than he is. In the first days I had him, he was nervous to be on a leash, cross the street, and get in an elevator. But, within 2 weeks he had stayed in 2 hotels, flown in a plane, rode on a ferry, and upon arriving in our home in Whitehorse was not afraid of any of these things. He was quite nervous of big dogs, but after slowly introducing him to our temporary roommates pit bull/mastiff cross, he has hardly any hestitation around big dogs now.

-- Ruth


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have been following this thread and this is my observations....of course this is just a guesstimate so take it for what it's worth. 
I think that the initial shyness you have observed is more attributed to the pup being 16 weeks and still with breeder than genetic issues. Ofte, when breeders keep pups longer than 10-12 weeks, there is a window of socialization( out in the world as well as learning to adjust to new places, people, things ) that is missed and though 80% can be recovered, some is never recovered. If the shyness is primarily genetic, then most insecurities ( especially outside the home) will remain lifetime. The way you have indicated that your pup has overcome many things outside the home, lends me to believe that overall his temperament will be fine as he matures. This is just my opinion from afar, and may mean nothing, but I've seen this type puppy many times before turn out fine.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> I have been following this thread and this is my observations....of course this is just a guesstimate so take it for what it's worth.
> I think that the initial shyness you have observed is more attributed to the pup being 16 weeks and still with breeder than genetic issues. Ofte, when breeders keep pups longer than 10-12 weeks, there is a window of socialization( out in the world as well as learning to adjust to new places, people, things ) that is missed and though 80% can be recovered, some is never recovered. If the shyness is primarily genetic, then most insecurities ( especially outside the home) will remain lifetime. The way you have indicated that your pup has overcome many things outside the home, lends me to believe that overall his temperament will be fine as he matures. This is just my opinion from afar, and may mean nothing, but I've seen this type puppy many times before turn out fine.


Thank you!! 

This is how I feel as well, though I am by no means experienced in this area. 

Aside from visiting the vet for xrays on his injured paw, I don't believe Sitka was outside of the breeder's yard before I brought him home. He was family raised with other dogs and people, and of course met potential buyers, but lived in a very rural location with little-to-no traffic. I would be nervous too, if a stranger came and picked me up, put me in her car, and drove me away from everything I had ever known!

I am consistently introducing him to new sounds, smells, people, animals, and environments, and with each adventure he becomes more confident. There's hardly a trace of that reserved puppy left - he even goes to strangers for head scratches!

Thanks for your input!

-- Ruth & Sitka 

Here's a pic just to show off


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think he'll be fine....good looking puppy!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

your premise is right, that you should match the puppy's personality to yours. However, your criteria on how to do that is a bit skewed. That is why breeder input on picking your puppy is most important, much more so than a potential owner's interactions with the puppy.


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Update:

I am still not convinced by the breeder. Despite my calls, text's, and emails I have not heard a response. I have not been redundant -- I called, texted, and emailed within 2 weeks, waited a few weeks and called, texted, and emailed again. I have not heard a response. I contacted CKC and found out the breeder has had 'administrative' complaints against her before. Sitka's mother is not registered, nor is his litter. CKC has told me the breeder has until December 2017 to register the mother and litter, after which time I can take action against her. Until then I will continue to get a hold of the breeder monthly to get Sitka's official CKC pure bred papers. 

That being said, I don't think Sitka has weak nerves. Upon more research and enrolling him in obedience classes I am sure that Sitka has a high prety drive and a very low defense drive. I've enrolled him in an obedience class that specializes, but is not solely focussed, in aggresive dogs. 

The dogs in his class are very aggressive. Now that I have seen a dog with 'weak nerves', Sitka is well bred. He is not afraid of everyday things... He is not aggresive or reactive to most loud noises or other dogs. He gets startled by motorcycles or loud cars driving by, but he doesn't shy away.

He is not afriad of people or dogs and he, for all appearances, is a happy and confident dog.

Though I would not recommend this breeder to others, I am confident Sitka did not come from a 'backyard breeder'. He is a working-line GSD through and through and has the full drive to prove it!


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