# Puppy testing and selection



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

When considering a puppy, what kind of testing do you implement and what are you looking for in the pup to help you select that "perfect pup"? For the sake of this discussion we will not allow "an experienced breeder" to make our selection.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

First I look at the pedigrees and what was produced previously by the dam/sire/breeder before visiting the litter/breeder.

I want an outgoing pup, a pup that has pack drive, not so much independant, but can figure out on his own how to climb steps or get over an obstacle without whimpering. 
I would like the pup to prefer to be around people instead of plush toys(when visiting to observe) and engage in a good round of tug when the toy is brought to the person for interaction. 
I also want the pup to engage with littermates and not just lay down and observe the others playing. 
Food drive is very important, but not the extent of bullying of other pups for mealtime(though I'd take a pup that may be a "dominant eater') I also want the pup to not be sensitive to noise, texture or weather, if ability to test that when visiting a litter. 
I was lucky that my pups breeder exposed the litters to most everything available, noise, car rides in a crate were done several times before pups went home, crate training/housebreaking was introduced. I wish every breeder would be as diligent in giving pups experiences that Karlo's did, he settled into my home without a glitch~ transitioned so well, you'd think he was born in my home, never went thru a "fear stage" either(genetics not nurturing on that one).


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Zahnburg said:


> When considering a puppy, what kind of testing do you implement and what are you looking for in the pup to help you select that "perfect pup"? For the sake of this discussion we will not allow "an experienced breeder" to make our selection.


Tricky question. If you take the experienced breeder out of the equation, you have to question why the breeder you're buying from doesn't care who gets which dog. (Unless the breeder has an established relationship with the buyer) 

So for this question I guess we get to* pretend that all breeders let people pick out their own puppies?* (otherwise you'll end up with a discussion about why they should or shouldn't. )


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Since I would not be testing a litter for myself that doesn't have the right parents/pedigree/etc I'll leave that part out.

First I want to see the whole litter and how they interact as a group. Then I will take each puppy out to a strange location and test them on their own.

I want a pushy, confident, outgoing puppy that when taken into a strange environment starts to explore. I HATE clingy puppies. Those that climb all over me and whine. YUCK. I let the pup explore for a bit and then I will call the puppy and want it to come and look for attention. I like independence, but also want a pup that wants to engage and be with people. This is usually when I will play with them with different types of objects. Throw toys, a metal dumbbell, a wad of paper, rarely a ball since they see these a lot. I want a pup that runs out, picks up and carries, but I don't care if they bring it back. Some will, some won't. 

I will then bring out a tug or rag and play with the pup to see grip (it is genetic). I want it full, hard and calm. I may "challenge" the pup a little by staring at it to see the reaction. Some won't care, some will get chewy, others will stare right back and bite harder. I like the latter.  

Then I will ignore the pup and let it head out to explore again. This is when I will drop a metal bucket on a hard surface to test for sound reactivity and recovery. I want a pup that either spins around and checks out the bucket or looks at it and goes about its business. I don't want them to bolt, to freeze, or to show fear. 

At some point I will usually put them up on an object like a table that gets them fairly high off of the ground. I want to see a pup that explores and moves around freely, not caring. I don't want them to panic, to freeze and not be able to move, to get shaky or to flatten themselves like pancakes. 

Then I will usually take the pup out, toss some food in the grass and watch them work. I like to see a pup that will hunt and hunt and hunt for the food until every piece is found and more and is not distracted away from the search by me, the noise of the park, the traffic, etc. I do other stuff like this with the pups, but this is just what I do on testing day.

Somewhere in here I will also do a pain sensitivity test. Pick the pup up and put pressure on a toe until the pup reacts. This gives me an idea of the pain tolerance of the pup and also how they react to pain. Then I will put the pup down and see if it will engage with me. This shows me forgiveness. I personally like a dog that is very forgiving/resilient, doesn't want to eat me and with a pain tolerance around 3-4. I would not want to place a pup with a family with little kids that reacts at a one or tries to bite and gets nasty. 

Something I also try to avoid are pups that get car sick. I see this as a weakness in nerves so I watch for that when we take the car ride to the strange location. 

We do some other stuff, but my mind is drawing a blank. This is my basic test.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Just want to add, that something I also try to listen to now, after making some mistakes over the years, is my gut. With my own litters I have known very early on which pup is staying. It is just a feeling I get when I watch the pups interact and also a bit of that instinct that I have learned to listen to.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I found your answer very insightful, Lisa!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Since I do not have any breeders around I would be interested in I do have to rely on the breeder in picking the pup for me. With that said, if I do not like the puppy I am fully prepared to turn around and leave without one, and I do not care about the deposit. 

With my current dog, I wanted to see him to be middle of the road with a good hunt drive. When I approached the pen with the litter and put my hands in there, a couple of puppies were already all over me. My puppy was running towards me probably third or forth out of 9 puppies. He ran after a ball, went after food (he was the best nose of the litter and the only pup of the litter who tracked the food bags stored in the area LOL), retrieved the ball, didn't have a problem to be picked up, then wonder away when put on the ground, then come back when called, then join the litter again, then come back , maintained a very nice eye contact, didn't lick, didn't whine, had no problems with the 4 hours (bad weather) car ride home, no problem with meeting the other dog and new people the very first night home. 

He was my love from the first sight, my gut feeling was that this is finally the dog I was waiting for such a long time. Well, he's over three now and I still can't believe my lucky stars  My breeder was absolutely on the mark.

I will follow this approach with my next puppy, maybe modified a little based on the goals I will have in mind for him at that future point of my life. I hope it won't happen soon, though.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I like a lot of what Lisa does. 

The only other thing I can think of that I like to mess with is the pups ability to focus in on an object. If we're playing with something and I lift it up over their head (slowly enough so they can see it go)...what do they do? Some pups will almost immediately lose interest and just wander off. Some will sit and stare at it (I like this) and other will start to bark and jump at the object. (This is good too)


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Well I don't get a lot of things...and its been a while. Might have done some of those puppy tests. But in the end I selected the puppy that crawled into my lap and fell asleep and slept most of the way home on my lap except to throw up and eat her contract-when we got home she woke up:smirk:


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

And then to look at it from another perspective.
(A)
How would you like to help me select what you think might be a good temp/drive match for me when deciding what sort of Dog ( GSD) im looking for.
(B)
Then select one from a pretend litter of 3 f& 3M.

A little info 
I have a 13 year old Border Collie -Spayed fmale, who is going to be veeeeery unhappy initally about this.

We currently walk off lead, early morning, then again around 4, then a quickie just 10-15 mins stroll in evening. Pretty used to very high drive, ready to roll 24 /7, full on working Dog, but she is happy to sleep and rest during the day after appropriate excercise, until she knows it's around that time again and will "remind me" it s that time again.


She is very very well behaved out off the gate, did Nursing home visits for 10 years with my parents in there, can take her ANYWHERE but when she gets in the car, or back home behind that gate she is very territorial, still.
So thats the temp Puppy will be living with 

But, next Dog, i would like a little less drive, a great buddy, who with the right upbringing is going be a fairly calm east to manage, no kids of any age in the house, all grown up and moved out, just us now, no grandkids, yet, 

So if you were me looking at a litter what traits would you be looking for.

To be really honest, if i did not have my BC, i would have prefered to get an older Dog, but i think Puppy is probably the way to go with her.
Its really interesting reading your posts, am learning a lot.

And have really enjoyed reading a few of the breeders sites on here and how they raise their babies in preparation for their new homes.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Susee, why don't you start a new thread with your question so this one can stay on topic?

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa

*****


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I like everything that everyone has mentioned. Since I didn't get to pick or evaluate the puppy I got, I pretty much did most of those types of tests once he got home to me to make sure I was indeed sent the type of puppy I was looking for. 

Tested him on surfaces (carpet, hardwoods, tiles, etc); 
what he was willing to go through or over to get something he wanted; 
put him up on our picnic bench to see how he was with heights; 
walked up the back deck stairs by myself to see if he could figure it out (our house stairs are trecherous and plain dangerous to a young puppy, so that was the best I was going to get); 
banged a lot of pots and pans, slammed our rake down on the patio in front of him, knocked over a baby gate, had him in the room when I was blowdrying my hair, had him in the backyard when my husband was using the chainsaw, etc; 
tested his "handler focus" by seeing if I could call him off our annoying, barking next door neighbors dog, the squirrels running about the yard, or the leaves blowing through the wind; 
to see how independant he was--would he freak being left alone in the yard with a toy while I went up on the deck? But wanted to make sure he had enough pack drive he'd still want to be with the fam, so in the house I'd trot off to another room to see if he'd follow; 
would play with a toy to see how long I could keep his interest--would he chase or just stare or even worse lose complete interest;
did he want to bite/tug on things;
was he OK being touched all over--paws included;
accidently discovered how fast he recovered from pain when i stepped on his foot (one howl, but kept right by me and didn't seem phased)--like Lisa's idea of squeezing the toe, and this reminded me of that;
VERY social with new people--wants to greet everyone happily (I want that in a puppy--the aloofness, I think, shouldn't come til later);
we knew he'd have a great on/off switch when he went from rolling in the grass being a wild man to settling in the crate in our car in about 2.5 seconds;
food drive is very important to me for training--does he WANT that food?

That's all I can think of now. I definitely do something new with him every day to continue testing him. BTW--this is my first GSD puppy. I've only dealt with rescue adults up until now in our home (and one 4-5 month old we fostered--resource guarder...how she was on surfaces was our last concern lol). But, I've pretty much handled testing him the same way I'd test an adult to gauge personality and quirks. Elsa is a very stable adult dog (however, lower threshold than I'd like and tends to work herself up to almost being impulsive). It is night and day between dealing with BAD NERVES in a GSD and GOOD NERVES. It's readily apparent. No one should convince themselves they are going to train shyness or being scared out of a dog. It only goes downhill from 8 weeks.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Well I made the mistake of going through a byb, I chose my puppy, but I knew what I was looking for.

I would look for a puppy that isn't afraid to come to me, one that is playful but could relax so I could pet it and pick it up. I want a confident puppy that goes and investigates things instead of hiding from them. I wouldn't want a puppy that showed no interest in me but I also dont want a puppy that cant leave my side. I wouldn't want a puppy that shows dominance over the other puppies (bossy and very rough play) I also wouldn't want a puppy that looks and acts completely freaked out and cries when it hears a strange noise or sees something strange. 

That's how I chose my Sinister and 2 years later, he is still perfect and everything I ever wanted.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

WERE I to get a puppy (unlikely) AND I would not rely on the breeder (also unlikely) I would probably resort to the PAWS test a lot of SAR folks use

http://www.searchdogsne.org/reference/The%20PAWS%20Evaluation.pdf

To that I would throw in some tests for environmental stability - this test does not test for fear based temperaments.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Anybody have any thing else to add? Where are Lee, Chris and Anne? I am sure they all have plenty to say on the matter.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> When considering a puppy, what kind of testing do you implement and what are you looking for in the pup to help you select that "perfect pup"? For the sake of this discussion we will not allow "an experienced breeder" to make our selection.


Honestly the biggest "test" for me is knowing the pedigree, the parents, what they have already produced. I won't even consider or look at a litter without having that background and some reason to indicate one of the pups in the litter might have what I want.

When picking the actual dog I mainly look for the one that is bomb proof. I do not want a dog that gets over-excited or shows any hesitation. I know everyone says socialization is important but I feel that a dog with strong genetics doesn't really need to be socialized, they don't need to be desensitized to everything because they're already bomb proof. I do not mind a natural aloofness that is an "I don't care" attitude, but not too much suspicion or showing defense when there is no real threat.

I know a lot of people whip out tugs and balls and want a puppy that will chase a flirt pole through plate glass but that is not so important to me. If I'm looking for a SchH dog I look to the pedigree, parents, etc for the best idea of how the puppy will work when mature. IMO the biting and gripping is genetic, not something I want to have to "test" or do "foundation work" to build up. The main drive I want to see at 7-8 weeks is hunting for food and wanting food. If the puppy does not chase a rag or fetch a ball that is OK but if he won't hunt for food that's a deal breaker.

I also need a puppy that is OK being handled, not so much in a lovey-dovey way but I do not tolerate "my dog won't let me trim his nails" or anything like that. I need to be able to trim nails, check teeth/mouth, groom, brush, treat wounds. I think part of this develops with how the dog is raised and handled but I have seen puppies that already show some aversion to being handled.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Going to assume that the bloodlines, parents, relatives, etc... already check out and offer what I want, or I wouldn't be looking at the litter in the first place. Though the only time in recent years we did acquire a puppy from someone else, it was a "let the experienced breeder pick" situation since the litter was on another continent. Told the breeder we wanted a pup that was representative of the lines (this being a repeat breeding helped in that respect) and that was as much as one can see in a pup breeding quality, and beyond that let the breeder pick and got exactly what we wanted.

If evaluating a litter for myself, I'd do much as Lisa does and be looking for much the same as her in the pups. Only thing I don't agree with in what she posted is carsickness being a sign of weak nerves. Sure it can be in some cases, but more often than not in my experience that isn't the case. I've noticed there definitely appear to be genetic components to it, but from a physiology standpoint and nothing necessarily related to nerve strength.

A couple things I'd add, and always do with our own litters:

The focus on the strange object test JKlatsky mentioned. My personal preference is for the pup who stares intently, but calmly, for several seconds. The one who jumps and barks would be ok, and I wouldn't discount that pup, but for myself I prefer the other reaction. Though since no pup is perfect, and one can't order a pup like a pizza and there is always something one has to compromise on, this is an area I'd compromise. 

How the pup responds to a tossed toy, or winning the rag, is another area I'd compromise on. My ideal is the puppy who will retrieve the object tossed, and who after winning the rag will slam into the person for more play. But the pup who goes off independently to possess the object is ok too. While I prefer the more interactive puppy, I can work with some independence and possessiveness. What I don't want is the puppy who disengages entirely and loses interest.

I want to see a pup not only intently searching for food on the ground, but one who is also very pushy trying to obtain food from the hands, and who keeps at it even when the food isn't readily given. I like pushy, confident, intent puppies who will work for what they want and not give up easily.

I also like to see some basic problem solving. Such as setting up an ex-pen, with an opening off to the side, and putting food or something else the puppy values highly behind it, and seeing what the pup does. Some will just climb and scream and have a temper tantrum, or throw themselves against the barrier in a frenzy. Others will quickly realize that isn't working, and no one is going to rescue them and make the barrier disappear, and they will shut up and set about working out the problem, finding their way around the barrier. I want the latter.

I will also intentionally stress a puppy to see how he can work through that and overcome it. Some pups are harder to stress than others, and I'd want the one where I had to work a bit to accomplish this. Not one who stresses easily, for certain. One way I will do this is using a wobble board or low teeter and leading the pup over it with food. Most pups are going to be unsettled a bit when they're walking about on it eating food and it suddenly tips and goes crashing down. What I want to see is how the pup reacts after that. Does the pup freeze and flatten, panic and go running away, or recover and keep moving forward after the food. Then on a second opportunity, how much does the puppy remember the first unsettling experience and how much does that affect his confidence and behavior the second time, and how much luring and encouragement does it take on my part (hopefully little if any) to get the pup to do it again despite the previous "bad experience". Of course with this I'm always careful not to push a pup too far, and make sure that no matter how long it takes the whole session ends on a high note with the pup having a very positive, rewarding experience to remember.

I watch carefully how a puppy plays both with me with toys and with littermates. I want the pup who is intense, but I want a calm, focused intensity coupled with poise and purpose and confidence. Not the pup who is intense and drivey but shows lots of spazzy, hectic, frantic behavior. Many people assume the puppy pulling like mad and vocalizing when on a tug is great, but I don't agree that's automatically the case. It depends on how the pup is pulling and vocalizing, and the reasons why he is doing it. 

I also give puppies 2 sessions of exploring the new environment, and at least 2 sessions playing with the person, not just 1. Very often a puppy will show different behavior between the first and second exploration session, and first and second play session. If the pups shows different behavior, and what that behavior is, tells a lot about the pup. 

These are all things I'd want to do if testing a litter to pick out a pup for myself. We do all of these, plus a lot more, with our own litters, spread out over several evaluation sessions. If I had limited time to spend evaluating the litter and testing and had to cut it down to the most important things, these are the ones I'd focus on.


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