# Developing an Eye for Dogs



## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

As the thread title says, I'd like to develop a better eye for dogs. 

A little background:

All my experience (not a lot) vis-a-vis training a dog for sports has been in French Ring. I'm starting my search for a puppy for FR this year, and have a decision to make: Either I can import a puppy from ring-titled lines from France (which I'm a bit hesitant to do) or I can buy a puppy from schutzhund-titled lines here in the States.

I have an academic understanding of what schutzhund is, but have never trained or competed in it myself. I'm not yet (maybe never will be) somebody who can watch a dog and tell the difference between what is nature and what is nurture. ****, I have a hard time watching schutzhund and telling one performance from the next except for clear mistakes.

So, for your consideration, I have posted two videos of two different schutzhund dogs. Both are males. Both have been used as studs... so at least a few people must think they are breed-worthy. What do you see (and at what points in the videos) that makes you think

"Yes, this is a nice stud dog." or "Nice dog, but probably not one that should be bred." or " Dear God, what were they thinking."

How can you tell what is nature, vs what is nurture, vs what simply needs to be brushed-up in training? What do I look for?











To me, the first dog seems like more of a firecracker. He barks more, seems more willing to take dirty bites (is that weakness or a training/control issue?). I've never personally seen a dog spin like that (again, weakness or training or sign of drive?).

The second dog, who was only two years old in the video, seems much calmer and more controlled. He barks less. Is he a stronger dog, or just less drive-y? How can you tell? 

All dogs have their strengths and weaknesses, but what should I look for in these videos to help train my eye? I get the sense that these two studs are quite different, but I'd like to be able to see more than that.


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## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

This is an interesting topic and I would like to know more about this too. I am in the beginning of IPO training and got into it in the end of last summer. I am learning more and more about dogs and training all the time. There is just soo much about it to learn!


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

In order to get a good eye for the two dogs, you'd need multiple videos...editing is a wonderful thing.

I'll try to comment on your observations but I am just learning as well. I don't believe the spinning is a desired trait and from watching the video the first dog really don't impress me or give me the impression of being a firecracker. Yes he barks a lot but look at what he's barking it, it's not the helper per say..from what I can see there's a bit of unsureness.

With the second dog - he's doing a silent guard..there's probably a reason why they trained that. It also looks like a training session so nerves and everything will be different then.

As I said it's better not to judge a dog off one video. The best thing to do if you can is get out and see the dogs work and ask questions then, ask how past litters are doing etc.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The first dog, the spinning is along the lines of a displacement behavior. Its like a conflict in the dog where he doesn't know what to do with himself. It could be like trouble containing his energy or he's been hammered for being dirty so he does that instead.

I don't think he's real high energy though, not from that escape bite and his kinda lazy strikes. Where are you going to do FR here in the states?


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

gaia_bear said:


> In order to get a good eye for the two dogs, you'd need multiple videos...editing is a wonderful thing.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said it's better not to judge a dog off one video. The best thing to do if you can is get out and see the dogs work and ask questions then, ask how past litters are doing etc.


Wouldn't that be nice. But let's be honest, video is what most people have to go on... at least initially. It's a big country.


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> The first dog, the spinning is along the lines of a displacement behavior. Its like a conflict in the dog where he doesn't know what to do with himself. It could be like trouble containing his energy or he's been hammered for being dirty so he does that instead.
> 
> I don't think he's real high energy though, not from that escape bite and his kinda lazy strikes. Where are you going to do FR here in the states?


There are two FR clubs within a half hour of my house, and another group that trains a bit of ring along with several other sports. Access to clubs and training is a non-issue.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Watch this, Nelli Racsko and Lexi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHA25quPOgY


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think he's real high energy though, not from that escape bite and his kinda lazy strikes.


Could you please explain how his strikes are lazy. Exactly what are you seeing, and when, to make you think that?

I see that he missed the escape bite, which is a mistake and point deduction, and that he doesn't get a full grip when he finally catches the helper. But dogs miss sometimes. Why read more into it than that?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything, just trying to get somebody knowledgeable to actually explain things to me and answer my questions.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

From video only, my guess would be the second dog is a stronger dog. Watching the overall picture of the second dog, I think there's some control issues there, maybe just the training, I don't know, but to me he looks like a consistent dog in all 3 phases.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

It's hard to compare the videos since one is a trial and one is training. So going off things such as control and so on aren't going to be comparable. 

Based only on the video's posted, dog 1, seems conflicted, unsure and neurotic to me. Did you notice the tail? Some people cut the tail off of "spinners" trying to keep it to a minimum. Spinning in some dogs is a neurotic behavior. IMO that's what this dog is doing. Most definitely not an overly drively dog that's spinning from leaking drive or anything else. I think the "conflict" in the dogs head is what led to the "missed" bite. Unlike FR, the decoy isn't trying to esquive the dog. The helper is running in a straight path and the target isn't moving. Based on this video as my only sample, this isn't a dog I would look at. 

I'm not sure what I think of dog 2. For some reason I didn't have sound so that hindered me as well as... I don't know. I'll look again when I have more time.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Watch a different dog and compare the intent of the dog on the escape bite. Is he trying to stop the helper from escaping or just jumping for the sleeve. Watch the intensity of the guarding. Is he bouncing hoping he gets fed the sleeve or is he anticipating a fight? I don't want to pick apart anyone's dog anymore then I already did. Youtube is full of great dogs but I think the most you can get from video is an overall picture. I agree with Gaia, I don't think it'll give you the complete dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You could contact the FR clubs that you mentioned in your post, ask to come out and watch them train. You could talk to people and get some recommendations about which breeders the would recommend. If you see dogs at the club you like, you could ask about who the breeder is -

But I agree with the assessments above - You'll have to watch a lot of ScH protection videos with a critical eye to be able to 'see' the intensity. You'll see that some dogs are just going through the motions and playing a game - and you'll see others that exude power, and take the fight to the next level.


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Watch a different dog and compare the intent of the dog on the escape bite. Is he trying to stop the helper from escaping or just jumping for the sleeve. Watch the intensity of the guarding. Is he bouncing hoping he gets fed the sleeve or is he anticipating a fight? I don't want to pick apart anyone's dog anymore then I already did. Youtube is full of great dogs but I think the most you can get from video is an overall picture. I agree with Gaia, I don't think it'll give you the complete dog.


But that's just it: I can't tell on my own. Intent to what? They're all going to bite on the escape. Unless they miss or pull down the helper or something they all look pretty much the same to me. What is the visual difference between a dog who wants to stop the helper and one who's along for the ride? Where in the videos I posted do you see these things happening?

From what I see most schutzhund dogs bounce a bit while guarding. What, specifically, does a dog who is "anticipating a fight" look like? What are the cues I should pick up on? 

I'm not asking anybody to pick apart a dog. I'm asking somebody to explain what is going on at key points in the videos I posted. Explain why I get a different overall picture between the two dogs. 

Again, these are titled studs who've been used for breeding in the same part of the world. I'd say that fact makes them available for some scrutiny... especially for the purpose of education.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Find videos of dogs that are titled or are winning events. Eventually you will understand what you are looking at.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Here's that same dog showing a little different in an earlier trial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvAHKvniuXI
See how he just kinda casually jumps for the sleeve.
Compare his escape bite there to this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-v7hqYcEw

Hear the impact? The way it changes the helpers line? Sometimes its hard to pick up the intensity of the guarding without having watched dogs up close, but its a feeling of tension you see in the dog. They describe the first dog on EU as very serious, maybe that's why he does some of the things he does, the way they got control. All this shows is that there's limits on what you can get from video.


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Find videos of dogs that are titled or are winning events. Eventually you will understand what you are looking at.


The dogs in the videos I posted are both titled.

Everybody says the best dogs aren't winning events. Besides, I know enough about trials to see that they are as much a test of the training and handling of a dog as they are an evaluation of the dog itself. My experience is in FR, but I think that statement applies pretty equally to any sport. And therein lies the basis of my initial post: Help me develop a better eye for dogs so that I can better discern what is training (or lack of training), and what is the character of the dog. 

Spending a bunch of time watching videos of dogs (when I don't know what to look for) seems like a terrible way to learn to evaluate them when somebody could just _explain_ to me what I'm seeing in the videos I posted.


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Here's that same dog showing a little different in an earlier trial:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvAHKvniuXI
> See how he just kinda casually jumps for the sleeve.
> Compare his escape bite there to this one:
> ...


I did hear the impact. Although that may simply be due to differences in video/mic quality. I can see a difference in the helper's line after the dog hits him, but again, that video was filmed at an angle that allows the viewer to notice it. I'll be sure to look for those things in the future. 

With regard to Bandu's video, is that what a casual escape bite looks like, or did the dog simply misjudge and launch too soon? It looks like he jumped for the bite much sooner than Eros (who sort of ran right up to the helper). Also, since the helper is running away in the escape bite (making it a prey bite, correct?), do you expect a dog to be "serious" about it? Is it simply easier for the dog to have the drive/courage/whatever to make it a hard hit?

Both dogs bounced and barked a lot during the guards. Does that mean they don't have serious intent? Hutch, the second dog I posted a link to, appears to be still and silent during his guards. What does that say about the dogs or their training? 

I also noticed that Eros sort of runs along the ground while biting after the long bite. What does "along for the ride" look like after the long bite? Because to me, Eros doesn't look like he's doing much at that point.

The helper in the second video of Bandu seems way more intimidating and threatening than the helper at the USCA nationals. How much do you take that into consideration when evaluating?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

An eye is developed through experience and also some is just natural. You need to see a lot of dogs, train some dogs, make mistakes in picking puppies and title some dogs to really understand dogs. Even then, many never develop an eye. Some are always blind. 

I knew the dog was a spinner when I saw his tail so was not surprised when he started spinning in the blind. I agree with mycrobraracr that this isn't just displacement behavior. I am guessing he spins in his kennel and the amputation was due to injury. He may even be a tail chaser and injured the tail himself. Either issue would indicate to me a genetic issue with the nerve/temperament/character of the dog. Based on that video alone this is not a dog I would be breeding. He comes into some of the bites well, but the grip is often shallow, lacks commitment and he is not showing great fight, but more hectic thrashing. I too hate picking apart other people's dogs. 

What I like about the second dog is he still shows drive and a desire to work despite the training. You can see that there is some conflict with the handler in the retrieves and despite getting smacked in the head with the leash in protection (now how did I see that coming?) he never loses the great attitude nor do his grip suffer. I would like to see this dog under some real pressure from the helper (whose work leaves something to be desired). I also didn't have sound and would have liked to have heard the H&B. Now, would this dog have the drives for ring? Hard to say, but he seems compliant enough, nice grips, good commitment and willingness despite the work.


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

lhczth said:


> An eye is developed through experience and also some is just natural. You need to see a lot of dogs, train some dogs, make mistakes in picking puppies and title some dogs to really understand dogs. Even then, many never develop an eye. Some are always blind.
> 
> I knew the dog was a spinner when I saw his tail so was not surprised when he started spinning in the blind. I agree with mycrobraracr that this isn't just displacement behavior. I am guessing he spins in his kennel and the amputation was due to injury. He may even be a tail chaser and injured the tail himself. Either issue would indicate to me a genetic issue with the nerve/temperament/character of the dog. Based on that video alone this is not a dog I would be breeding. He comes into some of the bites well, but the grip is often shallow, lacks commitment and he is not showing great fight, but more hectic thrashing. I too hate picking apart other people's dogs.
> 
> What I like about the second dog is he still shows drive and a desire to work despite the training. You can see that there is some conflict with the handler in the retrieves and despite getting smacked in the head with the leash in protection (now how did I see that coming?) he never loses the great attitude nor do his grip suffer. I would like to see this dog under some real pressure from the helper (whose work leaves something to be desired). I also didn't have sound and would have liked to have heard the H&B. Now, would this dog have the drives for ring? Hard to say, but he seems compliant enough, nice grips, good commitment and willingness despite the work.


He doesn't spin at all in the trial video Steve Strom linked to.

I thought the second dog in my original post, Hutch, looked very calm and quiet... especially for a 2 year old. Is that lack of drive, or just the temperament of that particular dog? I thought he looked very steady in everything he did... much like many ring dogs I've seen.

I didn't see any conflict with the handler in the retrieves. What are you seeing that I am not? Why and when was he smacked on the head with the leash in protection? I did see him get smacked on the a** a couple times when he didn't fully sit.

With regard to drive for ring - and remember that I'm a beginner in the sport - I think it's less about super high drive and more about the ability to handle control (there's _a lot_ of control) and corrections and keep going. Drive building isn't really done by anybody I've seen. And trainers are not careful about adding in control or corrections. Either the dog can look after its own drives and keep going or it can't. Clear as mud?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You may not recognize drive. Look at how he goes out, picks up the dumbell, comes back quick, then drops his head when he's in front of his handler. The dog is handled sloppy and heavy handed. See the knee to the side on the way to pick up the dumbell. The dog doesn't know what heeling is, but he just took a shot for it. Through all that, he does everything pretty well but looks miserable next to his handler. 

Just watch a different dog that scores well, whether or not that's the best dog by someone's definition doesn't matter for this. It'll just give you a reference point you can base some things on.


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## Basia (Oct 7, 2011)

Disclaimer: I've never trialed a dog and have not really done too much protection, but I have been watching/reading/studying... doing my best to learn, and for that I am glad you started this thread. I have been thinking about this topic a lot lately.

For academic and learning purposes I'd like to describe my assessment, but please take it with a grain of salt. And someone please correct me if I am wrong.

When I saw the first dog spinning in the blind my mind first went to neurotic obsessive/compulsive type behavior but then quickly changed to the thought that it was displacement- perhaps having been due to something that he just couldn't deal with, maybe a conflict between drives- maybe he has endured harsh corrections in the blind and didn't want to be there but knew he had no choice, resulting in the spinning. Later with all of the dirty bites I again saw a conflicted, unsure dog. To me, these were a sign of the dog's nature- the nerves weren't there to help him deal with stress. I do not think these things indicate higher drive or are a result of training style.

When I saw the second video, I saw a dog who was alert to his surroundings (kept looking at the video-taper and seemed to have caught a whiff of something good during the send-out) and who was wanting to please his handler, despite the training style. Minimal rewards during a long routine and the dog did not disengage and wander off- he had the drive to continue to do what his handler wanted. It seemed to me that something really caught his attention during the send-out and yet he remained on task- again showing his desire to please the handler. It was very evident that the dog was anticipating a smack on the head during the dumbbell routine, holding his head low like that, yet he continued the routine in seemingly good spirits. I'd consider all of the above to be part of his nature. I liked that. I think the routines were "sloppy" because of the training style, not because of the dog's character. I can't really comment on the protection specifically, but overall I liked it better. No red flags, per se.

Again, this is just a recap of what went through my mind.

Despite the fact that video might not an ideal way to learn, I think it's nice to be able to watch and discuss.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not dog #1 .

"

The first dog, the spinning is along the lines of a displacement behavior. Its like a conflict in the dog where he doesn't know what to do with himself "

Bet you anything he has had his tail amputated because he was a tail chaser , self mutilation - remnants of that behaviour seen in the bark and hold.

Plus he doesn't have the athleticism required for Ring (have done ring and palisades and jumps) . He seems restricted .


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## Basia (Oct 7, 2011)

GoodGodsUrge said:


> I thought the second dog in my original post, Hutch, looked very calm and quiet... especially for a 2 year old. Is that lack of drive, or just the temperament of that particular dog?


I don't think that calm and quiet indicate lack of drive at all. His ability to remain engaged on the task at hand despite the long routine with few rewards in between, to me, indicate he has the drive. I think if different training techniques were used he may be less calm and quiet. I would imagine that more ball/chase/tug rewards would kick the dog into more prey drive and result in more energy.


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

carmspack said:


> not dog #1 .
> 
> "
> 
> ...


What did you think of his second video, the one Steve Strom linked to? No spinning.


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## GoodGodsUrge (Feb 3, 2016)

Basia said:


> Disclaimer: I've never trialed a dog and have not really done too much protection, but I have been watching/reading/studying... doing my best to learn, and for that I am glad you started this thread. I have been thinking about this topic a lot lately.
> 
> For academic and learning purposes I'd like to describe my assessment, but please take it with a grain of salt. And someone please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input!

How are schutzhund dogs supposed to hold their heads when carrying a dumbbell? People here seem to think the dog is doing something wrong due to anticipating a correction. Are dogs who don't want to release typically smacked? I guess I don't understand why it matters how a dog holds the dumbbell as long as he fetches and releases it.

In what ways, specifically, were his routines sloppy? I noticed one or two things, like when he didn't fully sit before the escape bite, and I think he surged forward once or twice while heeling, but it looked to me like he mostly did as he was told. 

Could you give some examples of when and how the handling was sloppy? I really didn't notice anything one way or the other about the handling... I mean, maybe the guy isn't a pro, but neither am I. It's good to see what a dog can do without a savant at the other end of the leash.


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