# Pedigree Opinion



## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Hi Everyone,

Can the pedigree experts offer their opinions on my pup's pedigree. Do you think that he'd be a good sporting dog? He will be my first IPO dog (when he's old enough) and I'm really excited : ) 

Sire: Halk vom Grafental

Halk Vom Grafental

Dam: Dery Gaja-Nova

Dery Gaja-Nova

Thanks for your help!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Good sporting dog? Probably not. A dog that you can do IPO, maybe. I find the mother more encouraging in that aspect than the father. Will this be an easy dog to work for a first time handler, IMO, no. 

The sire and dam are not titled (at least on the website) which doesn't make me feel encouraged (no, titles are not everything, but they do tell us potential). Does the breeder have any IPO experience? Do they have a lot of pups out there working and titling?


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Thank you for your feedback : ) I plan on doing IPO with him. 

There are a few pups out there that are doing things, Its a fairly new breeder, who I have heard good things about. They do work their dogs, but as far as titles, not all of them are. One is in training for an IPO I. This particular dog, came from a non working home. They've had him for several months. Originally, I was planning on just an active family member, but with updates from her previous pups competing in different venues, I thought it wuold be something fun: ) 


What about this dog in your opinion would make him difficult for a first time handler? Just so I know what to possibly expect!


Thanks so much : )


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lacking the drives that make it easy to work with the dog in both obedience and protection. You have two parents that have done nothing. The sire's mother and her sire and dam have done only the minimum they had to for breeding. That is not encouraging to me for good working ability. If the breeder was extremely experienced I might overlook that, but the breeder isn't. Training a dog like this is not fun for the novice. Heck, they aren't fun for experienced people. Obviously this is JMO. 

The mother at least comes from a lot of dogs that have been heavily worked/titled. Yes, a lot of the females only have a ZVV1, but that is their breeding title and is based more on the raw dog. 

Cliff would be able to tell you more. I know some of the Czech lines, but not enough to help in that respect. I know a bit more about the DDR lines (dad) from experience.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

@Kavallerie.Shepherds

Umm wow  your profile pic puppy has a serious case of way to cute for his or her own good!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have owned GSD since 1985, working dogs since 1983, SchH/IPO since 1992 and in that time I have handled and/or titled a LOT of dogs from a lot of different lines. As I said, JMO looking at a pedigree and based on my experience.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Did you breed Hank? The b&t with Lisa?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Cool. I have met him a few times when I take my Paisley to Lisa for training. He is a handsome boy.


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## Mocha (Dec 3, 2013)

The poster was asking for opinions on the pedigree (the paper), and that is what they got. You should reach out to your potential buyer and attempt to answer their questions one on one. 


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Thank everyone! I agree with Jillian, the Kavallerie Shepherds breeder. I have complete faith in her dogs and their ability...which is why I chose her in the first place. I spent many months researching and then waiting patiently (as I could) for my pup. I love the upport she has for her clients, how she provides you with anything you need to know in reference to the dogs, their abilities, the progeny, all the health tests, not to mention ALL the questions I have asked her over the past year : ) 

My first priority is for my pup to be a family member. To bond more with him, after seeing all the other venues her puppy owners have taken with their puppies....I wanted to try IPO, since its in their pedigree. Something fun. I found a great club I completely satisfied with, thanks to Jillian. She provided me with potential questions, concerns, rules and things to take note on (which helped tremdously) when going to meet them. An inexperienced person of the sport I don't think could do that...JMO.

I am a novice to IPO titles, which is the ONLY reason I asked for opinions. I am on here often, just trying to learn like everyone else about these dogs we all love. I want to read and learn as much as I can before my pup gets here, so we can exceed in IPO. That in no way is a knock on Jillian's ability as a breeder or trainer. 

misslesleedavis1 - I agree with you, one good looking puppy!

Thanks again everyone!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Kavallerie.Shepherds said:


> I am the breeder. This pup will make a superb IPO dog and even excel as a dual purpose dog. This will be Dery Gaja-Nova's second litter. Her first litter produced 4 phenomenal males & 4 phenomenal females.
> 
> 1 serving as an autism service dog
> 1 serving as a disability assistance dog
> ...


Someone stating a dog will be "superb" in IPO/Protection or "dual purpose" should post videos of the dog's nerve being tested in stressful situations to show it's defensive drives, not going up a ladder (neat, but doesn't expose a dog's nerve being pushed into defense, my 16 week olds runs across moving bridges and down slides, doesn't mean anything when it comes to his defense drive and ability to be strong in protection). 

The best test I've personally seen for this is a dog on a table, being pushed by a strong decoy. The potential police dogs I've seen tested, all showed their true colors and abilities on a table being worked. I watched one strong sport dog, go into complete avoidance on a table. Totally different dog on the ground, strong grips, loud, strong, consistent barking....on the table...whining and avoidance (didn't push the dog beyond the decoy peeking around the corner). It was eye opening to me. Now I always wonder when I see "strong" sport dogs, how they'd do on a table or having to fight on unsure footing. Sorry...tangent thought there.

ETA: No thought or opinion on pedigree, just pointing out that to make your point that the dogs are strong in protection/IPO/Bitework....I'd post proficiency in that.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Dark sables and DDR dogs are very popular....and dogs with a high percentage of DDR make great companion dogs...many have enough drive to do some work and make good beginner dogs while others[ are very frustrating to work as they are not as easy to train as dogs with more Belgian or WGR....But the market is good for those dogs....the nicer darker sable the better. I could sell them all day long if I sacrificed everything else to produce that color! Unfortunately, producing color is not my highest priority and while I love it, and have produced it, I can't justify putting color on the top of the list in breeding criteria.

I HAVE trained a predominantly DDR dog to Sch3 - probably the best dog her father produced that titled according to more than a few people...trialed her apx 8x with twice High in Trial.....got her at 16 weeks and trained and trialed her for over 7 years....I am training grandget of that dog and planning the next generation....I don't think a dog with a high percentage of DDR is the best type of dog for someone who wants to work and title the dog.

The male's pedigree scares me for risk on both hips and temperament - I don't like to gamble!!! Britt Grauen Monstatb has NZ hips - and the male is linebred on Sven...the hips and temperament produced by Sven with Sindy was so bad, that the SV banned the breeding being repeated again...that from 2 DDR breeders! Boban, littermate to Britt, was notorious for bad temperament and hips....for several years there was a website and forum hosted by the owner of Boban and his temperament and production were no secret! No matter his temperament might be great...the risk of genetics coming forward is there....so it depends on the buyers comfort level when gambling....mine is not so high....I have seen dogs produce poor hips when almost all the dogs in 4 generations are 'a' normal/OFA Goods!!! Basing his suitablity as a stud on the production of his littermate sister makes me scratch my head....those progeny aren't old enough to have had hips done yet and none appear to have any titles either....having at least 7 litters in 2.5 years means that no dogs are old are really old enough to evaluate the breeding stock for titles and hip production (based on OFA dates and lists on the PDB)...


On the dam...there might be more normal type temperament/drive dogs...the Anrebi dogs are said to be bred more for looks than ability....then throw in Aly/Fero....Ego Hartis Bohemia was a good competition dog - the progeny of his that I know were just average dogs, not really great working prospects, washing out as just not enough to do strong work...

Owning dogs someone else titled does not really give anyone the depth of understanding to evaluate non titled dogs for breeding....playing around with some agility/obedience in the back yard does not prove a dog breedworthy....trainers who make a living training people and/or dogs rarely say they don't "just love" a clients dog....

so while these two dogs may be nice normal individuals....I see pretty pets with the risk of a few problematic dogs for health or temperament....Neither parent is titled....and the progeny shown are not titled....while the breeder claims 'extreme drive' - where is their experience and background to do that evaluation? How many dogs have they taken from puppy hood to Sch3 or any title?

Again, the dogs are all really attractive....but to say you will get a good IPO prospect???? There is just not enough real data and proven dogs from the kennel to say that.

JMO

Lee


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

wolfstraum said:


> The male's pedigree scares me for risk on both hips and temperament - I don't like to gamble!!! Britt Grauen Monstatb has NZ hips - and the male is linebred on Sven...the hips and temperament produced by Sven with Sindy was so bad, that the SV banned the breeding being repeated again


Lee... isn't there potential for some major aggression issues with Sven/Sindy progency too? Wasn't that one of Boban's big issues?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

"temperament" issues covers that!!!!! that is why the breeding was banned by the SV....

I have heard of dogs with these lines here in the US not being very stable even a generation or two down....

Lee


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

Very well stated Lee....Even breeders with world team IPO dogs also don't claim their dogs will be "superb" in IPO or Police. Puppies are a crap shoot. Would highly proven and titled dogs have a better chance of turning out? Absolutely....if I was looking for a new dog for IPO, I would stack the deck in my favor by looking for proven and strong IPO dog breedings.....There are tons and tons of those out there to choose from.

If the advertising was for good looking black sable companion dogs that may have the potential to train in some sports...I would be less inclined to disagree.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

wolfstraum said:


> "temperament" issues covers that!!!!! that is why the breeding was banned by the SV....
> 
> I have heard of dogs with these lines here in the US not being very stable even a generation or two down....
> 
> Lee


Thought that's what you were talking about, but wasn't sure if it was that or just plain bad nerve. Handler aggression too, right?

And was only Sven/Sindy that was banned or was it all Sven/"S" Schaferliesel girls? I know you'll find a lot of Sally in DDR pedigrees too.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

when all the breeding stock is dark "black" sable, and nothing is titled???? when a video is offered as an indication of 'working ability'??? The marketing says all the right things without any back up is what is being noted here.

there is an old saying - if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....pretty much a good indication it IS a duck....

Again, nice looking dogs! Some of them carrying some of the same lines I have....but there is no substance to the marketing other than rhetoric....lots of litters in a short time....many many breeders out there concentrating on DDR dogs of dark sable and black colors who "talk the talk" but do not "walk the walk".....


Just the Sven/Sindy....which should be enough for anyone with that knowledge to avoid the progeny!!!


Lee


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

I just don't understand how a breeder that claims to have outstanding IPO prospects would compare dogs doing IPO to a dog climbing a ladder..my border collie can do that yet she can't compete in IPO...


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Have you tried doing schutzhund with your border collie-knew a schutzhund III border collie


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

christinaekenn said:


> I just don't understand how a breeder that claims to have outstanding IPO prospects would compare dogs doing IPO to a dog climbing a ladder..my border collie can do that yet she can't compete in IPO...


Just a thought, maybe the breeder believes strongly in what they are doing.
Shouldn't all GSDs be outstanding IPO prospects? Instead of nerve bags with health problems.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Same old story, my dogs will be great for Police, IPO blah blah. Based on what? Parents arent titled, breeder hasnt titled a dog in IPO all the usual red flags.

I have one dog at a time, I have vids of all my dogs doing OB or bitework. If Im breeding dogs I **** well better have vids of parents, grandparents and pups working not to mention titles.

If IPO is boring go do PSA or Ring. Post a vid of the dogs on a suit, being exposed to pressure, doing obedience.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Just a thought, maybe the breeder believes strongly in what they are doing.
> Shouldn't all GSDs be outstanding IPO prospects? Instead of nerve bags with health problems.


I do not follow? What does that have to do with my comment? 

And just because a one in a thousand border collie can "title" in IPO, does not mean the breed is suited for it. And certainly if people take the time to title a border collie then there is no reason why the parents of advertised IPO/Police prospects shouldn't be titled or actively working on the street as well.

Even if one does not title, I would suggest at least having plenty of videos of the parents training in the sport. Gripping, protection, tracking, hunt drive, obedience (besides head down, lip licking, pet type of obedience). Show these things...because unless the dogs are actively worked, there is no way of knowing what strengths and weaknesses need to be improved upon before breeding to produce "outstanding IPO/Police prospects".


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

it is NOT personal...it is looking at what is said, what is on the website, what is on OFA/SV hip ratings....and having an opinion based on published information....

A litter in Jan 2011...L litter in Aug 2012 - if you follow the German style litter letters that is 12 litters! Hope's pups all D's and H's.....looks that way....12 litters that fast??? Hard to believe! You put YOUR name on a female from someone else's breeding?? Not kosher...so maybe A - H or I?? in 3 years??? The reason for the naming convention is so a breeder's production can be tracked...My A litter was 12 years ago....I will have L and M this year I hope...K was Oct 2011....

Non titled dogs are an IMPROVEMENT on titled ones????? Huh....that is .......a unique perspective..... Whether you LIKE IPO sport or not, it is the yardstick against which breed suitability is measured....I will breed ONE untitled bitch....but I titled her grandmother to Sch3, IPO3, WH, KKL1, CD, TDI....and HER daughter to IPO1 KKL1 and am starting to train her brother...worked her with well known National/World level trainers....due to a bad car wreck - I was not able to title her in 2012, and now, with her age I am going to breed her for a female for myself...

Again, from publish information all I see is potential (good and bad) and marketing of someone who hits all the "right" catch phrases....Again - this is so so so common with DDR breeding operations....but many of them just buy titled dogs and breed them....that is fine...most pups go as pets in this country....I just like to see evidence backing up claims.

Lee


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

if i was a breeder making bold claims i too would have videos of my dogs "working" vs simple obstacles to test their nerves.

with that said, i put more weight if the progeny was actually out working in the real world over titles. personally, give me a pedigree of untitled dogs who has produced sar and police k9s progeny over a pedigree full of titles every day of the week. plus schutzhund is more about a good trainer than it is the dog anyways. to look at a piece of paper and call an ipo3 dog great is oversimplifying.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Nope Alf was not titled or OFA'd....and every one of that litter was registered on irrevocable limited papers because of it. I got Alice from a trainer convicted of animal abuse so that AC would not seize the trainers dogs and destroy them. She was signed over in whelp. I took a total of 5 dogs on I think from that situation. Alf got placed with the help of a rescue and the owners kept in touch sporadically and let me know when he passed. I kept Alice, breeding her one time more, producing another OFA Excellent dog who was also 5 or 6x Sch3. Alice lived in my house and never was kenneled again until she died 5 years later....it was a pretty well known situation among the sport people who knew the trainer. One pup from that litter, Apache, was 6x Sch3. Showed at a National event, did passably well with a 1st time handler beating quite a few more experienced and highly touted dogs in OB and Protection....

That litter is 12 now and several gone.

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Alf was being trained...he broke down two kennel panels to get to the female. She would otherwise have been bred to a nice Sch3 male.iAlf's parents were titled and known to the trainer as he had owned his sire and trained his dam. The females' second litter was from an Aly son, many times Sch3.....

It is possible to win the lottery too....people do it....but is pure luck.

Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Kavallerie.Shepherds said:


> So it's possible to have a great IPO dog out of an untitled dog and possibly even more than one?


Lol..point out some of these great IPO or Police dogs you produced. Surely there are vids and trial results. If you have been breeding dogs since 09 surely some of them have been worked and titled in IPO or some other mainstream grip sport especially since it sounds like they can do just about anything.

SAR is nice, but it really doesnt prove much when it comes to breeding stock considering their are numerous dogs from numerous breeds performing in it.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

holland said:


> Have you tried doing schutzhund with your border collie-knew a schutzhund III border collie


I used to regularly work a border collie in IPO


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Kavallerie... what made you start breeding?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I used to regularly work a border collie in IPO


This border collie also trained helpers -it was probably a good way to learn helper work-they are light


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

holland said:


> This border collie also trained helpers -it was probably a good way to learn helper work-they are light


Yes, my body always appreciated the border collie work. Much easier lol


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Hey - I saw a JRT run through a routine at the Nationals about 10 years ago.....does not mean he should have been bred to a GSD!!!!

Most people whose dogs have accomplished anything have no problem citing those accomplishments. 


Lee


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

As a skeptic, I tend to distrust those who use a lot of superlatives like "phenomenal", "superb", "exceptional", and yet no dog is actually titled or working. And "in training" doesn't count. 

Anyone can say anything about their dogs and make it sound great, but I'm more interested in proof. SHOW us titles, working certifications, videos of actual work, etc. and then I might be convinced. Until then, don't get offended that no one is taking your word for it.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

holland said:


> This border collie also trained helpers -it was probably a good way to learn helper work-they are light


I have seen a border collie bite work youtube video, they are cute as buttons


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> "temperament" issues covers that!!!!! that is why the breeding was banned by the SV....
> 
> I have heard of dogs with these lines here in the US not being very stable even a generation or two down....
> 
> Lee


I think this is a very good point, and it's why looking at the papers IS important, not just looking at the individual dog (perhaps moreso!).

I am more versed with horses, but there was one stallion standing in Germany named Pilot (pronounced like pee-low) who produced outstanding animals from a performance standpoint, but his terrible temper was also passed down and so for many years nobody would breed to him. 

One of his progeny (Perpignon) ended up being ok, and I had to train a gelding that was sired by him, and guess what, the nasty, nasty attitude came out again.

This horse broke a girls arm by striking at her, he threw me off, he threw a Grand Prix rider off (same day, same training session lol), and you were risking your life climbing aboard as you never knew when he would blow up. He's now living out his days as a pasture ornament, and he is not the only ones form these lines doing so. I know someone who euthanized a talented horse sired by Pilot, because he was so unpredictable, he would not risk potential injury to his barn staff who had to handle him daily. 

So while I can't comment on this particular breeding (other than they are a lovely looking pair), I can say, pedigrees certainly do mean something, and traits can be passed down to future generations, even if it skips a generation or two.

When it comes to breeding you can't look at just the one dog, you must look at the whole picture. Different story if you are just buying one dog with no plans to breed, then I would look at just the dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I have seen a border collie bite work youtube video, they are cute as buttons


They are also pretty agile and fast


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