# HELP! dogs got into bad fight!



## Mavrick6512 (Jul 9, 2007)

ok, a little back ground... they are sisters. grew up together basically since they were born. They have been wonderful together. Never any fighting. a little snipping but nothing bad. They are now spayed. they are now 9 months old. 

ok, the past month they had one tiny brawl that was broken up very fast by yelling. then i made them lay right by each other right afterward until they were calm. then about 2-3 weeks later (sometime last week)  they had another one. which was little worse than the first. no blood, just growling and rumbling. 

Well, today, we went and got there registration and rabies today. we came back home and put them back in their pen for a little while, while we went to the store. We come back and i went to get them out and both of them are covered with blood from head to toe. They obviously got into it BAD while we were gone. I rinsed them off. Kita has to bad cuts on her front legs and Elii has on cut on her front leg and her face it pretty bad. Not much heavy bleeding anymore. i am icing their wounds as we speak. they both are limping and lying around. 

what can i do to prevent this????? they are locked up together while we both are at work so. its hard to seperate them. I have heard that if you start serperating them and not let them together that you cant ever have them together again. So if you dont so that then you have to let them "duke it out" for dominace. I dont want to hurt each other! I dont know what to do! 
Please help!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Two females AND sisters at that? What you have is perfectly normal and often expected. You may have to separate them for life. They don't call them "bitch fights" for nothing. Be careful- two males can fight like crazy, but two bitches who are really into it are liable to kill each other, literally. 



> Quote:they are locked up together while we both are at work so. its hard to seperate them.


That's asking for trouble. Get a second crate or second kennel or second SOMETHING, whatever it takes to KEEP THEM SEPARATED or one day you will come home to a dead dog. Take both individually to training classes to reinforce YOUR leadership. You can have them together supervised to see how they do but if they are constantly at odds, then you know that they will not get along for good. It's almost always bad news to get two puppies at the same time, worse to get two littermates, very bad to get two of the same gender, shooting yourself in the foot to get two females. Yes, some are able to make it work but it does depend on the dogs and the owners- some owners are just natural leaders and natural trainers and some dogs can be convinced that hating each other is OK but fighting about it is never acceptable. Talk to breeders and ask them how many mother/daughter or sister pairs can be kept together and how many must be separated and you'll see it's pretty rare to have female close relatives get along well enough to not require separation.


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

I am so sorry, bitch fights are so tough, my female shepherds have never got into it with eachother but have both used my rhodie mix as a pull toy. It never had a cause that I could see. After 3 attempts at having them all together in the yard I gave up on outside group activities. I was in the process of finding a good home for the rhodie.....she was supposed to be a rescue and foster but it didn't work out that way. I still am open to the idea of rehoming if the right home comes along but for now unless they are all in the house she is kept seperate. I know this doesn't give you advise but I hope it helps knowing you are not alone with bitch issues.
Maybe the problem is that they are sisters and the same age, is there no established alpha? That may be the issue. If it happens when you are both gone maybe you need to seperate them while you are not right there. Can you leave them in a seperate room or crate them?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Not all females fight but once they start fighting it is very difficult to stop. What kind of ship do you guys run as leaders? 
How much training do they have? Do you practice NILIF? The situations I know of where two status seeking females were able to live together harmoniously included pack leaders who were very fair, strong (not mean) and consistent. 

Right now you must keep them separated for their own safety. The fact that they are now fighting while you are home and gone means that they absolutely cannot be trusted together. You may have to keep them separated for the rest of their lives. You can still walk them together but I would not ever leave them together unattended again.


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## Mavrick6512 (Jul 9, 2007)

They dont have any training from a trainer, just training from us. I do practice NILIF. they are going to be seperated for now till i can figure out what to do.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Never Never let these two females together alone again. A saying I always remember "Males fight for breeding rights - bitches fight for breathing rights". Do not let them Duke it out, you will probably have one dead dog and another one that will be torn up really bad and may not be able to be saved. You can possibly manage them when you are there to get on top of them and make them behave, BUT they will never like each other, tolerate maybe, like never. Once they have escaled to drawing blood you aren't going to be able to reverse it, so management is your only choice. If you want to put them into a down, fine but I wouldn't push the issue with having them down right next to each other.

There are some studies in the works that with some females spaying makes them more dog aggressive.


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

I don't think it always has to do with the human alpha being lacking in their place. My two working girls have had no problem with other dogs, social situations ect and trust me they KNOW who the alpha bitch is in this house. I know what my problem with Kibby is. Both of my females work and train together. As most on this forum knows they are my working SAR dogs and are very well socialized and trained. Kibby is the "outsider" bitch. Lexi is very much the Alpha female of my pack and the problem only happened because Lexi went to correct Kibby and Kibby did not accept it. At that point my omeg female went in to back up her alpha. I know all this but what I do not know is what made Kibby all of a sudden stand up to her correction when she has always been submissive before and had been with my pack since she was approx 8 months and had no issues prior. They have no problems in the house when under the watch of the true alpha, its just when they are left to their own devises that I had an issue. 
I do think that Ashley's big problem is that she has 2 same sex, same age females and that the alpha is not established with them. While the NILF is very effective at establishing the human as the Alpha the pecking order still needs to be established within dogdom. Both of her females are trying to establish themselves as next in order and I think she needs some behavior specialist help to be able to successfully modify this behavior.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I got the same situation, what works is kennels, crates, LOTS of excercise and leadership. Tired puppies are good puppies.

I don't know if this helps or not but when it comes to treats or toys I always make sure I got two in my hand for them and make them sit or platz


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

Great post Sharon, I very much agree with you. The poster needs to research "inter dog aggression" and decide if they are going to put the HUGE amount of work into fixing this situation OR just keep the girls separated. It can be fixed to be workable with a lot of hard work but I also agree with Chris that once they have escalated it to this level they can never be trusted alone again. My Aimee still has scars on her from her sister....they hated each other and could not even be in the same room together....and I *am* a very strong pack leader. Sometimes something just goes bad in a relationship between bitches and it is very difficult to correct once established









Good luck, I hope they both feel better.

Cherri


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## Mavrick6512 (Jul 9, 2007)

ok, i just learned that there was a bone in their crate. One of the three must of dropped it in there the other day. ( i was throwing it and lost track of it) could it have been possible that it was over that?? Elli sometimes gets cranky about "her" bones and toys. 

they are right here and since they have been out they have had no problems what so ever.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

The majority of fights start over food or toys, so yep it is a strong possibility.

I have several dogs and while they are fine in the house with me in the room toys and food are not an issue because they are not out in the house.

None of my dogs run loose togather if we leave and only certain combinations run togather out in the yard.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I have two sister intact females and they get along fine and dandy. They have both tag teamed my slightly older female- once before she was spayed and once after. Neither of them are allowed with the older one any more but the sisters are always out together. 

I still would NEVER leave your two unsupervised together again. But I tend to prefer to be safe than sorry. Even if this was a fight over a bone the next time might be a fight over a blade of grass.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

My two females have gotten into more fights than I can count. Bloody, have to go to the vet for stitches, kind of fights. This is when we first got my second female and I knew nothing about "bitch-fights".

I do not leave them alone together. One goes in the crate when we leave and the other roams the house. I will never, ever, trust them together as from what I've witnessed if they ever got into a fight while I was gone, I would be coming home to a dead dog (Annabelle). The last thing I would ever do is pen them up together. That's like putting them into a boxing ring!

Most of the time they get along now, but I don't trust them. Not for a minute.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> Even if this was a fight over a bone the next time might be a fight over a blade of grass.


Exactly. I have seen fights over toys, my petting one and not the other, one stepping on anothers foot (they got into a bad one over that), and another just throwing the ball in the backyard (the fight-starter doesn't even play ball!). At first I could identify the cause, but it got to the point where they were fighting over nothing. It just escalated. 

Now we just keep them apart unless we are around, and we've learned to read doggie body language REALLY well.


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## flyinghayden (Oct 7, 2005)

I second everybody, DO NOT! let them duke it out!!!! They will need to be seperated from here on out. My 4 females are supervised 100% of the time when they are together, and I never let them all out at once.


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## CMorton (Oct 28, 2000)

I second and third as well, seperate them when they cannot be supervised, and if they are together when you are home watch for subtle signs in behavior before anything escalates to a full blown fight. There are always signs, they may just be extremely subtle, and if you feel like you cannot pick up on those signs, they shouldn't be together.
Sounds like you have personality conflicts, two strong minded bitches. 
I think you need to see someone who specializes in behavior issues, not just training, and it will never be an easy fix. And I think someone who uses positive methods vs the force method would be preferable.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> Quote:My two females have gotten into more fights than I can count. Bloody, have to go to the vet for stitches, kind of fights. This is when we first got my second female and I knew nothing about "bitch-fights".


You learn fast though, don't you? I have scars to prove that some lessons are very very hard and come with a high price.

Please trust everyone on keeping them seperated when you are not there to supervise and possibly even then. There is nothing worse then seeing two dogs that you care about seriously trying to kill each other and knowing that the one you grab first may be the sacrificial lamb. 

I have grabbed one by the neck pulling it away inch by bloody inch while kicking at the other one. It is NOT a good way to start the day.


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## Mavrick6512 (Jul 9, 2007)

I just dont really understand why they would do this. They are SO good together. Last night we kept the together in the room with us and their were no problems. All day today, they have been perfect. Is it just the age they are getting to? Or could it have possibly been a fight over a bone and thats it? Is it possible to try it again with no toys or bones in their?? i just really dont want to seperate them but if it comes down to it ill have to.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Is it just the age they are getting to?


Yes. They are getting into the teenage years. Remember, middle school adolescent girls are usually the worst offenders! 



> Quote:Or could it have possibly been a fight over a bone and thats it?


Could very well be.



> Quote:Is it possible to try it again with no toys or bones in their??


If you absolutely must, then try it when someone is around to supervise. Be ready to throw one or both into the car for a mad dash to the vet's and read up on how to break up a dog fight properly. Be aware that dogs confined in tight spaces CANNOT get away from each other. If one dog wants to end the fight, the aggressor may not relent unless the other dog has moved off a good ways away and confined in a crate, this is impossible. The stress levels rise and the urge to kill rises. Go buy a second crate and have it ready so you can use it the instant it is required. If you really don't want to separate them, this would be best- they can be crated within view of each other and not necessarily alone, but safely separated.


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## tibvixie101 (Nov 26, 2007)

tired dogs are happy dogs, if you really want to keep them together when your supervising them, try to take them for a long walk first. walking together is pack mentaility, so once they walked long enough to burn most of their energy, then i would try letting them be together. 

My female is only tolerant of other dogs. she is fine with the pitbull, but is kept seperate from the ACD female in the house. When i introduced Bear to the pack, she immediately felt the need to pin him and put him in his place. I found that slowly introducing them by taking them out to the park for a long hike together, and then bringing them back to the house (took about a week) was the only way for me to get Mya to allow him to be here. Now they are the best of friends. Every now and then their is a small tiff, someone stepped on someones paw, or bear does this dumb move where he creeps up behind mya and when she turns around and sees him she'll nip him because she's surprised hes right there. But these are small incidents that happen in most homes where their are mulitple dogs.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

If they respect you (or another person in the house) as being in charge they probably won't show any signs of aggression towards each other while around you.

But - put them in a pen by themselves with no people to supervise and you are asking for serious trouble.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I got the same situation, what works is kennels, crates, LOTS of excercise and leadership. Tired puppies are good puppies.


Sad to hear another example how we set ourselves up for a harder life with our dogs when we get littermates. It's always much harder than one puppy, let alone when issues crop up.

I absolutely would have 2 crates, and always would have had them together in the home but done tons of separate stuff also, like giving them their own crates, separate car rides, separate training sessions, separate socialization events. Sounds like your pups can't be left alone together for the near future (forever?). 

And whenever I find my training is lacking cause an issue comes up, then I go right to a trainer and work on things. I personally feel both dogs need to go with you to organized classes with you for the structure and socialization as well as continuing to work on leadership skills and your role in their lives.

Will the breeder take one of the females back? That may be easiest and safest for everyone. And you still will have tons to work on with the remaining dog. 

You ever read these sites? Kind of explains why you may be in the situation you are in:

http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm

http://www.leerburg.com/2dogs.htm

http://www.flickr.com/groups/goldenretrieverpuppies/discuss/72157594564290493/


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: AshleynJustinI just dont really understand why they would do this. They are SO good together. Last night we kept the together in the room with us and their were no problems. All day today, they have been perfect. Is it just the age they are getting to? Or could it have possibly been a fight over a bone and thats it? Is it possible to try it again with no toys or bones in their?? i just really dont want to seperate them but if it comes down to it ill have to.




They may never get into it again. They may go months and then have a small battle. They may go weeks, months or even a year and you will come home to a gravely injured or dead dog.

Every person on this board that is experienced with multi dog households is telling you the same thing. The only safe thing to do is to keep them seperate when you are not home and there is really a strong possibility that you may have to keep them seperate when you are there. 

Really, I promise you, they will not mind being crated seperately.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> 
> > Quote:I got the same situation, what works is kennels, crates, LOTS of excercise and leadership. Tired puppies are good puppies.
> ...


I got mother and daughter

daughter was still young, first full on heat and it was over.


they'll work together, some synchronized tricks and such but if left alone together the rank issues start, so if I'm not around or even in the can, into the box or kennel they go


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Betty101
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AshleynJustinI just dont really understand why they would do this. They are SO good together. Last night we kept the together in the room with us and their were no problems. All day today, they have been perfect. Is it just the age they are getting to? Or could it have possibly been a fight over a bone and thats it? Is it possible to try it again with no toys or bones in their?? i just really dont want to seperate them but if it comes down to it ill have to.
> ...


What she said! 

Share a crate? Really? I wouldn't do that with any of my dogs unless I was right there (vacuuming or whatever). They need to have their own space anyway, where they can get away from it all (their Calgon area). 

Do you have other dogs? Are there other dynamics coming in to play?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Look, it's just not worth the risk. Crating them separately is not cruel. You can put the crates in the same room together. It will make them feel more secure too!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

This isn't ment as an attack on you even though that is how is it going to sound.

WHY is it so important to you to have them together when you are not there? Is it really worth it to have them together even at the risk of having a dead dog (or 2)? Why not just seperate them and be done with it? I would be willing to bet that this is NOT the end of the bloody fights. It's not "IF" it will happen again, it is "WHEN" if you continue to force them to be confined in a small space together. Or even if they are in a large space together when you are not there. If you don't watch them closely there is also a good chance that it will happen again even if you ARE there.

For the sake of the pups, I REALLY hope you heed all of the advice you ahve gotten on this thread and KEEP THEM SEPERATED".(sp)


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

You can have two crates side by side but they should not be kenneled together ever again.

It is an age thing but unfortunately it is not just a stage. The urge gets stonger as they get older. As kids we had two fixed females that once matured would fight. Not often but with the intent to kill. ALMOST happened once. At that time I took one female to college with me. She wouldn't have lived through another fight.

We only saw agression every three months or so but each fight was worse than the one before.

I will never have two females, especially littermates again.

Good luck and take it seriously because it is serious.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I guess I do have two females now. LOL. One is 5 yrs old and 75 pounds. The other is 5 pounds and three. That said the little dog was a rescue and not SUPPOSED to stay. Luckily (thank you Lord) we are aggression free. I love females but knew when I went looking for a GS puppy it HAD to be a male.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Was thinking about this while I was watching my dogs in the yard-picture me in the middle like the monitor-all I need is a whistle!

Anyway, I was watching my girls and thought of this. They can be so obnoxious with each other that I know they need their own space some of the time. 

I get Petmate crates at Walmart. For the XL it's probably $80 with tax-so not bad when you are buying a lot of crates like I have over time. They are collapsible so portable-ish. What I do though is use zip ties to make it so they don't collapse because that company did have some quality control issues in years past.


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## Lixx (Dec 3, 2007)

I have 5 male dogs in my home. None of them are EVER left unsupervised loose with another. It is in no way cruel nor does it affect their relationship with one another. It is actually a very good idea for you to seperate them, not only for the safety of their lives, but to prevent them from becoming dependant on each other to the point you can't seperate them at all with out the other throwing a fit. You have taken on two same sex, same aged dogs into your home. It is YOUR responsibility to provide them with a safe environment to live, and that means seperating them when you are not in the same room looking directly at them (ie, no back turned chopping potatoes in the kitchen!). You are extremely lucky to still have both girls. Count your blessing and learn from the mistake.


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## czgsd (Jan 12, 2004)

You've received some good advice, and I don't have any to add. But I haven't seen the rabies vax mentioned, and I can't help wondering if it was a factor in triggering a fight, along with the bone (bone probably more important). I don't know how common it is, but some dogs do get cranky or even aggressive right after the rabies (or possible other) vaccination. Also, the injection site may be tender for a couple of days, so something triggering that pain may cause one dog to think the other bit it, if they're lying or playing together. Nonetheless, I agree that crating two bitches together is asking for trouble, especially after they've fought.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I've had two dogs share a crate. My 45lb and 10lb mixes shared an XL wire crate with a divider in place.
I can't imagine what would happen without something separating them and there being something as dog-wonderful as a BONE in there!!!!









Do NOT leave them alone in such a confined space. It's just asking for torn up -or worse- dogs!!!!!!


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## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

I had two females together for 5 years and no fights but the older female was recognized as the alpha and even when she was old and weak my younger one didn't challenge her; she always backed her as an omega. It isn't luck it is training as the first was very obedient when we took the second girl in.


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