# does anyone do work to eat training?



## pmcelveen (Dec 28, 2015)

I have a 3 1/2 month gsd pup. We are training her to become a service dog. Right now just obedience and manners and social skills. We have implemented a work to eat program which was suggested to us by a trainer. Basically I measure out her daily food recommendations per her food guidelines. Then I fill various toys where she gets about half of her daily food thru this method and the other half is used as rewards for training. (about 4 cups in total) We also often mix cottage cheese with kibble and stuff a toy as a special treat. Sometimes freezing it. Also for new training we use high value treats like string cheese and hotdogs or boiled chicken. I was wanting to have opinions from others who have had experience with this method of training. Its a lot more work than simply putting food in a bowl but she seems to enjoy the challenge.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The "work" for food thing?? Is "usually" only something you do with dogs with "issues" usually aggression??

I would question the "DIY" my own "Service Dog" approach myself?? Sounds kinda odd to me?? There are members on here that "specialize" in training service dogs. And most likely they could point you in a more "appropriate" direction? Sorry can't remember who they are???

Welcome aboard.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I always used Seger's meals to train with when I was doing puppy foundation work. Now I'm starting retrieves so I will use food again for that. It's great! MANY sport/working people use the puppy's meals to train with. Very common.

Sounds like you have a trainer. Unless you are not seeing results, I wouldn't second guess that person.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I always used Seger's meals to train with when I was doing puppy foundation work. Now I'm starting retrieves so I will use food again for that. It's great! MANY sport/working people use the puppy's meals to train with. Very common.
> 
> Sounds like you have a trainer. Unless you are not seeing results, I wouldn't second guess that person.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Yup. I'm a big fan of making the dog give eye contact and hand feeding. Not something I do regularly anymore, but it worked miracles for general obedience & attention when I did it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

As I understand it "hand feeding" and "working for food" are not the same?? 

I don't have a "puppy" in this fight but when I do my puppy will be free to eat as much as she wants because she's a puppy.

If ... having a puppy work for food, was such a great idea I'm sure it would be mentioned on here??:

Leerburg | The Ground Work to Becoming Your Puppy's Pack Leader

As I say I have never hear of doing such a thing with a puppy?? But the sites I go to have there basis and I guess having puppies "not" work for there food" is one on them??

So to be fair I do not usually view Victoria Stillwells point of view on uh ... anything but I did look and I don't see "work for food?? 
https://positively.com/dog-training/positive-training/using-food-in-training/

I do see the use of food in "training" but I don't see a puppy "working" for food.

Maybe someone else can source that position?? Should be on Youtube somewhere??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't generally use meals for training, raw feeding is hard to do that. But I do reduce meal portions when we are training. Tracking and obedience takes up quite a bit of food for a puppy, no way do I want a roly poly. 
On the other hand, I don't want a frantic shark when I train either, so pup gets fed some before we work, and then "fed" reward treats(I use food rolls cut into pea sized cubes)during the training.


> I do see the use of food in "training" but I don't see a puppy "working" for food.
> 
> Maybe someone else can source that position?? Should be on Youtube somewhere??


I do make my pup drive into me for the reward, keep the attention and engagement high during obedience. Or I'll give the reward at the position I've asked for. Not sure why a link should be added to answer a question though....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't generally use meals for training, raw feeding is hard to do that. But I do reduce meal portions when we are training. Tracking and obedience takes up quite a bit of food for a puppy, no way do I want a roly poly.
> On the other hand, I don't want a frantic shark when I train either, so pup gets fed some before we work, and then "fed" reward treats(I use food rolls cut into pea sized cubes)during the training.
> 
> .


I used commercial raw for the first several months. Made little meatballs and used those for foundation heeling and position. And wore gloves.

Wish I could have found something better than Red Barn or the Natural rolls to track with.

Never had an issue with "frantic".


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

this method is common in the service dog field for both trainers and clients. because food rewards are used pretty heavily at the start of training and in the beginning of the working relationship with clients - it's not only a training tool but a means to control their weight. the morning ration is generally divided between a bowl and the bait bag... anything remaining in the bait bag by the end of the day is added to the pm meal. food toys are generally put in the mix for puppies just as added enrichment.

"work to eat" is likely just choice words. training and working are pretty much hand in hand.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Fodder said:


> this method is common in the service dog field for both trainers and clients. because food rewards are used pretty heavily at the start of training and in the beginning of the working relationship with clients - it's not only a training tool but a means to control their weight. the morning ration is generally divided between a bowl and the bait bag... anything remaining in the bait bag by the end of the day is added to the pm meal. food toys are generally put in the mix for puppies just as added enrichment.
> 
> "work to eat" is likely just choice words. training and working are pretty much hand in hand.


 Nicely played! 

It's "not" titled "food" rewards, it's titled "work for food" to "some" those are "two" diffrent things?? Using food for treats is not the same as "I" see it?? 

But if the "OP" is "comfortable" with it ... go for it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I do make my pup drive into me for the reward, keep the attention and engagement high during obedience. Or I'll give the reward at the position I've asked for. Not sure why a link should be added to answer a question though....


I tend to "cite sources" on account of, I'm kinda like:











Pretty much that simple.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

but the OP did say "the other half is used as rewards for training" ie food rewards 

it's not like work to eat as in "earn your keep" lol

the food toys like I said, adds enrichment, increases the value of food as a motivator for advanced training that comes later (because believe it or not, even tho it's a primary reinforcer, not all dogs are food motivated) and introduces problem solving as much of a service dogs work is done independently. a guide dog for example is trained to target a curb, the blind handler is aware because the dog stops... at that time a food reward or praise or a chest rub etc can be offered but before the dog can get to the curb it has to be able to hold a relatively straight line down the block at a consistent pace, navigate pedestrians and other obstacles, ignore barking dogs and food on the ground, watch for low hanging branches.... and the list goes on. things that can't be commanded and rewarded because the handler is unaware. or a dog that detects low blood sugar - there's no command for that. 

all of this may not apply to the OP specifically, but it's pretty standard if their trainer specializes in assistance dogs.

but anyway... off topic...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Fodder said:


> but the OP did say "the other half is used as rewards for training" ie food rewards
> 
> it's not like work to eat as in "earn your keep" lol
> 
> ...


Aww ... clearly it seems a case of been there done that??

For my area of "expertise" family pets, nothing I'd recommend. But *I will concede the point "here" to you! *Well played sir ...yet again!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

OP stated they put half of the 3.5 month old puppy's food in toys and kongs and sometimes freezes it, while making the puppy work for the balance. I translate that to mean that this puppy is never given a bowl of food to eat in peace. 

Call it training if you will, but if that is the best one can do for training, (and I know nothing about training service or guide dogs), maybe the training methods should be rethought.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

pmcelveen said:


> I have a 3 1/2 month gsd pup. We are training her to become a service dog. Right now just obedience and manners and social skills. We have implemented a work to eat program which was suggested to us by a trainer.


It of curiosity- Is it someone who has experience training service dogs specifically? Or just a general obedience trainer? (No judgement as I have no experience with this method. )


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

it's not forever MAWL and it's not standard across the board.

w/o more info from the OP there's no way to know their goals or the trainers training plan and/or theory.


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## pmcelveen (Dec 28, 2015)

Just so everyone knows I got this info from a service dog trainer out of seattle washington. Service dog academy. Bailey loves her food toy puzzles! It provides lots of mental stimulation. She eats 4 cups + of puppy food a day. about half of that through the dog toys and puzzles and the other half through training. Plus o top of that I can assure you she also gets lots of high value treats. She is now 15 weeks and weighs 33 lbs so no worries about her growth. Also her veterinarian was on board with the work to eat program and he is also a gsd owner.


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## pmcelveen (Dec 28, 2015)

West Seattle Dog Training & Puppy Training Classes - Service Dog Academy - Pet Puppy & Adult Dog Training Classes

I am not good with posting links and such but this is the training academy I got the info from. They are very well known in the service dog world and they have great success. My dog will be a diabetic alert dog for me.


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