# Trainer says she's just mean?



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So, I paid for an assessment/consultation for Shadow today and I was a bit startled by the trainers findings.
She says Shadow is aggressive, just aggressive and needs serious behavior modification and would benefit from a board/train program. She also recommended rehoming as she believes Shadow will never do well in my care, she did say they can assist with this.
Can someone tell me what they think of this?
Food/toy aggression is nil. I can take anything from her, so can anyone else. 
She acts like a twit in her crate if Bud walks by, lunging and barking. Open the door and she's all wiggles and kisses.
She is fond of fence running and will fight with other dogs at a fence. She will bite if an unknown person reaches over the fence.
In the house/yard everyone is her best friend, I've had fairly rowdy bbq's and she's just a little suck. In fact had a virtual stranger walk through the gate and she brought him the Frisbee.
Off the property, she does not like people. Has attempted to bite and is now muzzled for walks. She will walk past with no difficulty, we worked hard on this.
She does not like other dogs, goes from hyper alert to lunging and barking to trying to run.
Other animals are a no-go. She is a hunter.
She used to be afraid of buses, trucks, flashing lights and anything that moved or didn't. Those little lawn signs were mortal enemies. I mean afraid like frozen, shaking, drooling and moaning. We worked hard. She's still nervous but will walk on, sometimes trying to bolt, or shying.
She is muzzled at the vet, she tried a snap once. We are working through this and making progress but she will stay muzzled.
She is mouthy and has gotten me pretty good when she's excited. Amp her up and she growls, darts, grabs but playfully. I honestly just thought that a lot of the problem is that her mouth is always open so she hits with her teeth a lot. She tugs at my clothes, but has never ever actually grabbed me. She has snapped and gotten me a couple of times, always on a redirect when I was removing her from a problem.
The trainer asked me to play with Shadow, so I did. Then I told her to leave it, the ball, so she did what she always does ran at me, slammed her front feet into my stomach, bounced into a sit and barked, then waited for her praise and release. Trainer says that is blatant aggression, Shadow is trying to push me around, and I reward it? She said the barking is threatening, I thought it was just talking. She put a leash on Shadow and tried to leave the yard, without me, and Shadow started bouncing and trying to mouth at her hands, she gave a correction and Shadow shied and hit the brakes. She tried pulling her and Shadow lost it, fighting the leash and growling. I stepped in and took the leash, settled Shadow down and told the trainer we were done. I paid her she gave her assessment and recommendations and left.
Does this sound right? I thought Shadow was afraid not mean. I knew we would have problems with her taking Shadow away from me, we've tried that before, and I did tell her that when she asked for Shadows leash. I stepped in because I found out the hard way a long time ago that Shadow will choke herself right out when she's afraid.
Anyway, now I'm just confused. I could really use some input here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Then I told her to leave it, the ball, so she did what she always does ran at me, slammed her front feet into my stomach, bounced into a sit and barked, then waited for her praise and release. Trainer says that is blatant aggression,


 A lot here but I wanted to start with this to ,make sure I did not miss it! Because it actually says a lot! 

Yes for me that would start to get old pretty quick! But it's your dog and apparently you allowed it and as you accurately stated "she did what she always does" so if that's how she was "trained" then yes that is what she would do!

That may be a bad habit and probably something you "accidently" accepted but 'NO" that is neither aggression or disrespect...not sure if she added that one?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> A lot here but I wanted to start with this to ,make sure I did not miss it! Because it actually says a lot!
> 
> Yes for me that would start to get old pretty quick! But it's your dog and apparently you allowed it and as you accurately stated "she did what she always does" so if that's how she was "trained" then yes that is what she would do!
> 
> That may be a bad habit and probably something you "accidently" accepted but 'NO" that is neither aggression or disrespect...not sure if she added that one?


Any time Shadow comes to me it's good, no matter the method. I have had a few other dogs who came in so hot that they used me to stop, it doesn't bother me and I didn't 'teach' it but probably shaped it. I was shocked that a trainer was seeing aggression and thought maybe I had misread it.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

That trainer...is going to damage your dog beyond repair if you keep taking her there... But I think you know that. I mean I don't know what kind of a trainer would take a fearful gsd away from the only person they trust in a strange situation to test it out, at the FIRST meeting. That is just ONE red flag. Shadow from how you describe just sounds fearful, anxious, and maybe lacks some leadership or stronger training in you. Not saying you haven't been, you have gotten her through a lot. Just saying the jumping at you with her mouth shouldn't be acceptable (just one example) however you have allowed it. Because you have allowed it it is either that you are okay with this behavior? If so, then go right ahead, to each their own. OR you haven't been able to train her on it yet because possibly don't know how? Or haven't had time? 

I definitely don't think shadow needs to be rehomed or put down or whatever else. What she needs is training, love, and lots of management to make sure she doesn't harm anyone. This can also be achieved with more training. 

Sailor pretty much hated everyone outside of my family. He used to lunge and try to attack people on walks. So I started taking him on more walks, and after a few months he became predictable, and stopped lunging at people because it was the same 'ol same 'ol for him and he was bored and knew there was nothing interesting or alarming about people jogging down the sidewalk. I think with sabi, just more exposure in a controlled manner even with a muzzle or however you control her, a strong leader, a good routine, desensitizing her. I mean I am sure you have done these things, but keep it up you know? You are all she has and you can't give up on her evenough this trainer clearly has. *scoffs* sorry but that trainer is really a piece of work. I doubt sabi has true aggression, not many dogs do. Most of it is fear based.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

P.S.

Not only could sabi be Acting "aggressive" based out of fear, but couldn't she be excited? I mean if she is barking and carrying on in her crate, then comes out and is all happy and tail wags... She might just be excited? Or have pent up energy? Hard to say since I am not there and don't know your dog, but it could be no? I have had clients like this, and even captain was like this. His previous owners said he was territorial and aggressive, but when I got him? Shoot, it was nothing more than excitement and pent up energy!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> That trainer...is going to damage your dog beyond repair if you keep taking her there... But I think you know that. I mean I don't know what kind of a trainer would take a fearful gsd away from the only person they trust in a strange situation to test it out, at the FIRST meeting. That is just ONE red flag. Shadow from how you describe just sounds fearful, anxious, and maybe lacks some leadership or stronger training in you. Not saying you haven't been, you have gotten her through a lot. Just saying the jumping at you with her mouth shouldn't be acceptable (just one example) however you have allowed it. Because you have allowed it it is either that you are okay with this behavior? If so, then go right ahead, to each their own. OR you haven't been able to train her on it yet because possibly don't know how? Or haven't had time?


 We work on stuff. The aggression is relatively new, she used to just run from everything. Walks are iffy, she doesn't enjoy them much so I have sort of stopped forcing the issue.
To be clear, she doesn't really jump at me with her mouth open. She always has her mouth open, and she bounces around a lot. She does mouth at my hands, normal I think since she started out sucking food off my fingers. If I give her a stuffy to hold she doesn't go for my hands, so it's probably a pacifier thing for her.


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## Big Brown Eyes (Jan 11, 2015)

The background of the dog is interesting to know:

How old is your dog?
Did you get him as a pup? or adopt him from a shelter?
Was he battered by a previous owner?
What about his parents? Have you seen them or interacted with them?

From what you have written I feel, yes your dog has aggression issues. I do not think the trainer handled the situation perfectly. But what bothered me most is her aggression towards people. 

By the way, who does the dog accept as the alpha? You or your husband? 
Does your dog accept you as higher in the pack hierarchy than himself? 

Try this: give your dog's leash to another person, loose leash. And try to walk ahead of the dog (and the person walking the dog). Please post what you observe from this experiment. Try to note what exactly the dog tries to do, walk calmly behind you, or try to get to your side or pull and try to get ahead of you and in a way "put" you behind him.


On topic: if your dog is young, you have to put on the brakes hard, and make an about turn. Your chances of success are higher. 

But one thing is certain things need to change. You will need to train the dog intensely.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I had my first dog E val by a trainer Gunther BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix I thought he was a Dominant Aggressive Male. The trainer said not exactly he is a Dominant male but no he is not 'Aggressive" I said great, I can deal with that! No Dog Parks train him to ignore other dogs and we went on from there with great success!

It would be 7 years later when I came accross the real deal in the form of Rocky, OS WL GSD Dominant Aggressive Male with High Rank Drive and uh...people "issues!"

Gunther passed so that solved my 'Pack" issues.  But I still had a dog that did not much care for company or uh anyone save his pack!

I spent many miles and months walking him and I to used a muzzle in public for awhile. Once I understood how he "looked" when he had no issue with my approach I dropped the muzzle in public. I did "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" I managed his space kept people out of his face! I allowed no one to pet him and he learned that I had his back and his place was behind me when I spoke to people. Vet visits are not an issue no muzzle and today he is safe in public!

Apparently he does not much care for toddlers but we don't have kids and I was between him and said toddler when he made it clear to me that he was having none of dealing with a toddler!!

Anyway I don't see you as being "unsuitable" or needing to send your dog away! You seem to be the same as many of us that found our self with more dog than we expected and now need to deal! 

So I'll start here lots of links:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Train the "Place Command" :
Why the “Place” Command is So Important and Your Dog Should Know It! : TheDogTrainingSecret.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

This is more nuanced but a lot of pros do this with there clients dogs
"Sit on the Dog"
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5228410-post19.html
Looks like this:
Energy - it's all about confid-tude

The jumping needs to stop and Lou say do it like this:
Stop Your Dog from Jumping Up


The fence fighting needs to stop, as long as that continues it undermines everything else! A down stay the instant it starts could help or a long leash if need be! As you train you'll get better behaviour and at some point a "leave it" will be sufficient!

You've been able to keep your dog from biting the crap out of anyone so good job and I'm pretty sure you can do the rest!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Big Brown Eyes said:


> The background of the dog is interesting to know:
> 
> How old is your dog?
> Did you get him as a pup? or adopt him from a shelter?
> ...


 Shadow is 4. She has been with me all her life. Her beginning is posted on this forum http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/519082-shadows-story.html

She has never been on a loose leash in her life, and would follow me if I walked away, likely in that situation she would walk between my legs.
Am I her Alpha? No. Probably something closer to a mother. We don't play the alpha game in this house.


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## Big Brown Eyes (Jan 11, 2015)

I am sorry I did not read 6 pages in that thread. But the things you mention in the OP of that thread, Shadow suffered from all that? Then he has had a tough beginning. How long was he exposed to cruelty before you got him?

Alpha dog is not a game. Many of us believe (Including myself) that a dog treats his family as a pack, wherein he accepts one as alpha and rest as pack members. It is imperative that the dog place all human pack members higher in the hierarchy than himself.

It is advisable for you to know your place in the hierarchy - as per the dog's thinking. I will challenge your theory that the dog will run to you and walk between your legs. Please try the experiment and write the observed result vs the desired hypothetical result.

Your dog has aggression issues. And for you to be able to take corrective measures requires that you are in a position wherein the dog is willing to obey you. 

I have a tendency to write firmly, do not be offended. I am trying to help. 

But my perception about dogs is quite simple: a dog is a human companion. It cannot be an aggressor, if there are aggressive tendencies then those need to be trained out, or the dog has to be put down. 

Does not matter what the dog went through in life, attacking humans (Without command from controller) is unacceptable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't think fear nor aggression. Retraining. It some way you(not in a bad way), probably not knowing it have rewarded the bad behavior. Rewarding a dog for a behavior at the exact time of the behavior is key. I don't see anything that can't be retrained or managed. 

You are going to have to start over completely. Start with focus on you and her not jumping at you. Build her confidence with a tug and reward with a ball(toy motivated, yes?) If she is frustrated(fence fighting), distract her, tell her to get her ball after she figures out the ball relieves her frustration she might always have a ball in her mouth. The only reason Modnite has not killed Batman yet is because of an orbee or jolly ball. Midnite can be in full force chase with Batmsn and all I have to say is get your ball and that's it. It is magical if used the right way.

The trainer that evaluated Midnite said he needed private lessons and they weren't cheap. I didn't agree and Midnite got where he is today because I worked with him my way. I took a little bit everything and mixed it all up.

YOU CAN DO THIS
.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh and what do you do with her for exercise? Physical and mental?

Flirt poles, puzzles, find it? Give her a job to do! Maybe a nose work class or even agility?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> The trainer asked me to play with Shadow, so I did. Then I told her to leave it, the ball, so she did what she always does ran at me, slammed her front feet into my stomach, bounced into a sit and barked, then waited for her praise and release. Trainer says that is blatant aggression, Shadow is trying to push me around, and I reward it? She said the barking is threatening, I thought it was just talking


wow, that trainer is not one I'd take advice from
Shadow was trying to engage you, and you were right in thinking she was 'talking'. I swear some trainers are so intimidated by a dog vocalizing they think everything needs to be squashed and dog must always be submissive. 
The barrier aggression can be managed. Many dogs have this behavior and it isn't what I'd consider serious...fence fighting? Don't allow it. Carrying a toy is a great idea, I have Onyx do it all the time and she knows a ball is her stress relief so she isn't constantly biting Kacie when things get ramped up.

Do you practice NILIF with Shadow?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> So, I paid for an assessment/consultation for Shadow today and I was a bit startled by the trainers findings.
> She says Shadow is aggressive, just aggressive and needs serious behavior modification and would benefit from a board/train program. *She also recommended rehoming as she believes Shadow will never do well in my care, she did say they can assist with this.*
> Can someone tell me what they think of this?
> 
> ...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

"_She is fond of fence running and will fight with other dogs at a fence._"

I might take advantage of this situation and incorporate it into my training procedure. I have 3 neighbor fence dogs which used to easily incite my dog ( it's always the other dog's fault  ). Letting the fence theatrics continue is just making the problem worse and ingraining undesirable behavior. When I finally decided to step in and stop my dog's "tough fence dog" routine, I started with her on the prong and lead and worked her at a comfortable distance from the other dog's at the fence while they were going off...I guess my thought was..she needs to first very clearly get the idea that the unbridled loosing her marbles behavior with the fence running is not acceptable and has repercussions. From that point, I have worked very hard on creating focus with the dog and then applied this focus while the other dogs were at the fence barking at us. Much time was spent on obedience and engagement while the 3 fence chargers were present and my dog is probably about 90% on ignoring them. I somewhat believe part of the success was due to familiarity with these dogs but the temptation is still there....and I am still working on this behavior with my dog currently while on leash with other dogs she is not as familiar with....

I'm curious....does your dog, while on leash out walking with you..look behind her after you have passed the perceived threat?


SuperG


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Sabis mom,

I commend you for the work you have done with Shadow so far and for taking action by inviting in an evaluator to give you another perspective.

I can only imagine how shocked you were with the trainer's comments but, more importantly, you came here to question her recommendations. That shows your commitment to make Shadow everything she can be.

I can't help with your initial question but I can say that it is apparent you know Shadow's strengths and weaknesses and I firmly believe you are the best person to decide what training methods make the most sense. Lots of good ideas have been posted so far.

Good luck! You can do it!!!

Lynn & Traveler


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

wouldn't go back there. sounds like fear aggression to me, not "she's mean" 

My bet is a lot of her noise is leash & fence aggression, no flight so, ya know, at least act like a badass.

leaving her with him would not prove fruitful for you or the dog, IMO. 

but I just read your other thread, and you wouldn't leave her with that knucklehead...

ever been to a dog park with her? 

You don't play alpha, so she's confused, often....it's good she has a good recall, that can be your reset button, your stop on a success then release at the end of any shaping session.

Can you stand over her? (dog in a down, you straddling her)

You should write that book.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Big Brown Eyes said:


> I am sorry I did not read 6 pages in that thread. But the things you mention in the OP of that thread, Shadow suffered from all that? Then he has had a tough beginning. How long was he exposed to cruelty before you got him?
> 
> Alpha dog is not a game. Many of us believe (Including myself) that a dog treats his family as a pack, wherein he accepts one as alpha and rest as pack members. It is imperative that the dog place all human pack members higher in the hierarchy than himself.
> 
> ...


 A lot of great feedback from everyone, but I need to address this first.

First of all, I struggle with the Alpha theory. Largely because I have studied wolves in the wild and seen evidence that the basis is largely misunderstood. 
If there is an Alpha bitch in this house, it's me.
Second, I have walked in front of Shadow, many times. She displays herding behavior when loose and will circle and push at me. On leash it panics her when I try and walk away, hence the lunging forward and diving between my legs. Not anyone she knows has ever successfully kept her from me off the property or been able to take her out without me. No amount of coaxing, bribing or force will induce her to move more then a few feet away from me off the property. 
Most importantly, _Shadow has never attacked anyone_. She does not like people reaching over the fence and will snap at them and the people she went at on leash were trying to engage/touch her. She can't run, she's cornered, so she goes on the offensive. 
I keep her muzzled because she's freaky quick, and because she never, ever bluffs.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I dont know where all the people experienced in dealing with such things are hiding. They seem only to come out when I make an incorrect comment, to pound me.. lol.

I dont have advice.
But there is obviously a problem. That you are struggling to deal with.
I think its better to confront the trainer head on. And try work on it.

You could maybe find another trainer. But I don't think she did anything wrong
like Barbie says...
The trainer was ASSESSING the dog.. Not trying to Train it..

Give them some time of day. Or wait for an experienced individual here to answer you.

I think they just are not bothered to post, because everyone is being so supportive and don't feel like offending.
I think the dog needs some help. And since you are willing to engage it, you need to also hear out that professionals approach.
The dog however is struggling with what you are currently doing. So it needs a bit of a human modification in approach I believe.

All the best.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> A lot of great feedback from everyone, but I need to address this first.
> 
> First of all, I struggle with the Alpha theory. Largely because I have studied wolves in the wild and seen evidence that the basis is largely misunderstood.
> If there is an Alpha bitch in this house, it's me.
> ...


Never thought I would quote this guy  but this is a good read.
Game Chasing (Crittering)

He outlines some dangers of using that protocol incorrectly.
Pay attention to that.... The dog wanting to just stay next to you, and not want to move and being fearful of things around it, away from you.....

I would imagine a lot of people using the older William Koehler methods may have some of those types of problems.

Best guess.
Go back to the trainer. Give him another chance.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I was shocked and upset by this trainers behavior. A couple of things stand out now that I have had some sleep. 
She showed up seemingly prepared to take Shadow on the spot, and she mentioned that she had clients who would be a much better match for Shadow then I am.
Llombardo-she's spoiled, not a doubt in my mind. But she's so utterly cute and engaging that I can't help it
We play find it games and work on impulse control, hence the leave it game. She struggles with obedience, apparently it's boring so we learn tricks and games. Never used a flirt pole, I actively discourage any behavior that promotes biting or chasing, she's a natural hunter and I live in a city.
Onyx- We won't be using that trainer, at this point I am thinking every trainer in this city is an idiot.
We do NILIF a bit, but Shadow falls apart under pressure so I need to be careful. Yesterday I asked her to 'place' to get her stuffy. Five minutes later I had every toy, had been given 3 paws, got a spin, a speak, a down and she was standing in the yard, legs splayed, head down, completely defeated. I reset with 'touch' and guided her to 'place'. It was my fault, I asked for it while she was amped up and not focused, she isn't ready for that it's a new command. 
Stonevintage- I don't like board and train, I have issues with someone else putting hands on my dog, especially when I am not around. I've just heard to many horror stories. It would have to be someone I trusted and had worked with for me to even debate it.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Big Brown Eyes said:


> I am sorry I did not read 6 pages in that thread. But the things you mention in the OP of that thread, Shadow suffered from all that? Then he has had a tough beginning. How long was he exposed to cruelty before you got him?
> 
> Alpha dog is not a game. Many of us believe (Including myself) that a dog treats his family as a pack, wherein he accepts one as alpha and rest as pack members. It is imperative that the dog place all human pack members higher in the hierarchy than himself.
> 
> ...


A child for example will often not be placed higher in the pack... 

Just because you think he is.... You certainly cant do anything about that... Only the child can.
Family members can be 'untouchable' and respected without having 'higher rank'. so to speak.

They can learn rules on how to behave.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm not sure what to think.... 

Is it that she (the dog) only slammed into you with a toy and started barking that made the trainer say she was mean???

Or did the dog show some kind of aggression towards the trainer? 

Or is she/he just going by what you told him/her?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SuperG-that's how I know she can run backwards I thought continued forward motion would distract her. Prong collar has been much on my mind lately, she cannot wear a choke, but must be kept on a martingale as she is adept at slipping her collar. 
Lykoz- while I am well versed in Koehlers methods, Shadow does not respond well to them. Lou Castle has helped with her a lot, but since I lack a helper that's useless. This is the first time you've said anything not totally judgemental to me Thanks.
Travellers Mom-Shadow isn't going anywhere, for better or worse she's stuck with me. I know you know that. We will just keep on keeping on.
dOg-Shadow and I have a fascinating relationship, it would make a great study in nature/nurture. She believes I think that she is a child, her actions often mimic those of the children, hence she views me as Mom. Her and my step daughter used to get in slap fights, and Shadow seems to believe she has hands. This also means I get the same temper tantrums I get from the kids when I deny privileges.
Yes I can stand over her, in fact she loves it. I can also hug, hold and carry her.
She's a good dog, sweet and loving with family and friends.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

G-burg said:


> I'm not sure what to think....
> 
> Is it that she (the dog) only slammed into you with a toy and started barking that made the trainer say she was mean???
> 
> ...


 She sat in my lap when the trainer first arrived, that's dominance
She slammed into me and barked, that's aggression
She growls when she does zoomies, that's aggression
She barked for her ball, that's dominance and aggression.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Sabis I was not trying to provide the cratering protocol to solve your problem.

I provided the link to show how some mistakes we make with similar tools and making a few mistakes, that we may not have foresseen with them, could produce such problems.

I really hope everything turns out fine.
Things we do for years and have worked on various dogs sometimes just don't go down well with another dog.
Then we need to re-assess and change approach.
Sometimes that is also a systemic change in philosophy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> She sat in my lap when the trainer first arrived, that's dominance
> She slammed into me and barked, that's aggression
> She growls when she does zoomies, that's aggression
> She barked for her ball, that's dominance and aggression.


Run. Run far. Run fast.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Run. Run far. Run fast.


There are other posts that indicate that there is a problem.
Including being muzzled at the vet,bec of a previous bite attempt and some extreme fear away from owner.

We can take everything out of context.
A second opinion may also be good.


Obviously in that trainers mind something does not seem right.

I think sabis has enough experience to pick a good trainer that may help and they must exist in the usa.

If she thought there was never a problem, why go for an assessment in the first place.

We go because we need help.
Sometimes we may not like what they say.

The part about the trainer I did not like was how quickly she tried to rehome the dog.

They obviously need to work on their professional people skills.
Build trust and only later offer such insensitive advice to an owner who loves her dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

man...you will argue over anything. Amazing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis Mom- When I get home from work, and have time to give this thread the proper attention, I'll expand on my thoughts.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Lykoz, I get the point.

I have not EVER used Koehlers methods on Shadow, I knew when she was very, very young that such methods would have a devastating impact on the personality of such a soft dog. 
IMO, for whatever that's worth, Shadow needed nurturing and confidence building. Utilizing hard methods with her would have produced a dog with impeccable obedience and no free will. It would also probably have resulted in a serious bite as her fear would have been suppressed until it exploded.
Lou has tried to help in the past but I screwed up the recall and misread my dog, rendering the ecollar useless.
Shadow has always been brave at home, shy in public. She was socialized. When I still had Sabi, she followed Sabi everywhere. Now she follows me everywhere. 
I can stress that she shows NO signs of separation anxiety at home, and will wander of her own free will when we hike. It is the act of forcibly taking her from me/keeping her from me OUTSIDE the property that she resists.

Jax, thanks.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I see your point with the flirt pole but teaching them the difference between when they can or can't hunt could help you out. She has the hunt in her, is it fair to suppress it? Wouldn't that frustrate anyone? Does that make sense? She needs to release some of that prey drive and whT better way then in a controlled situation?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I see your point with the flirt pole but teaching them the difference between when they can or can't hunt could help you out. She has the hunt in her, is it fair to suppress it? Wouldn't that frustrate anyone? Does that make sense? She needs to release some of that prey drive and whT better way then in a controlled situation?


 That's a good point. I will need to study on that. I don't know how to single that out though, not a hunting dog person. 

I bet she would rock at lure coursing


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

The opinion of the breeder doesn't impress me. 

I have to commend you hanging in there and doing what you are doing with shadow. She certainly doesn't sound like an "easy' dog, but from what you describe my feeling is she could be a heck of alot worse!!! (and probably would be without YOU)

Sometimes we just can't fix everything, we can keep on trying, but knowing what we 'have', and working with that, accepting that they are what they are, is key to going forward. 

I would not use the koehler method on a soft dog ..I've trained koehler with a couple of my gsd's who LOVED it, but they were very tough dogs, my aussies would turn into marshmellows..

I think your doing a good job on your own, keep up the good work!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

I'm not sure what your background or training experience is sabi's mom so if I tell you something you already know, please excuse me haha. You say this dog needs confidence building and nurturing. I'm totally in agreement with the confidence building. As far as nurturing, have you been able to effectively nurture her ONLY at the right times? The nurturing is something a dog owner needs to know when to do/when not to do. If you sense she is fearful or anxious, lunging, growling, cowering, hiding on your lap, trying to get to you because she is being taken away by the trainer, those times are not times to nurture her. (Not that you did, I'm just reiterating to anyone who doesn't know this). When dogs are providing unwanted behaviors, those are not the times to say "it's okay, it's okay, good girl, shhh" and pet them. I am sure you do nurture her at the right times though, just wasn't sure so wanted to say it. Also, when you say nurture I don't know if you mean in the way I just described with words, and petting, or what kind of nurturing you are talking about that you say she needs? We as dog owner's need to make sure we never unknowingly nurture unwanted behavior because it WILL just exacerbate it.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> The opinion of the breeder doesn't impress me.
> 
> I have to commend you hanging in there and doing what you are doing with shadow. She certainly doesn't sound like an "easy' dog, but from what you describe my feeling is she could be a heck of alot worse!!! (and probably would be without YOU)
> 
> ...


 The only reason I wanted an assessment was because I thought maybe someone with fresh eyes could help with the training process. I accept that Shadow is what she is and I love her. I have tried trainers before with similar results, but usually 'bad breeding' or 'waste of money' or 'needs to know who's boss' don't know why I keep trying. I never in a million years expected anyone to label Shadow as mean! 
Thanks for the vote of confidence.




BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I'm not sure what your background or training experience is sabi's mom so if I tell you something you already know, please excuse me haha. You say this dog needs confidence building and nurturing. I'm totally in agreement with the confidence building. As far as nurturing, have you been able to effectively nurture her ONLY at the right times? The nurturing is something a dog owner needs to know when to do/when not to do. If you sense she is fearful or anxious, lunging, growling, cowering, hiding on your lap, trying to get to you because she is being taken away by the trainer, those times are not times to nurture her. (Not that you did, I'm just reiterating to anyone who doesn't know this). When dogs are providing unwanted behaviors, those are not the times to say "it's okay, it's okay, good girl, shhh" and pet them. I am sure you do nurture her at the right times though, just wasn't sure so wanted to say it. Also, when you say nurture I don't know if you mean in the way I just described with words, and petting, or what kind of nurturing you are talking about that you say she needs? We as dog owner's need to make sure we never unknowingly nurture unwanted behavior because it WILL just exacerbate it.


 Nurturing as in setting her up to succeed, teaching her new things, giving her the foundation. Much as it rips my heart out, I do not baby her. We face our fears with calm assurance and move on. Trust me it kills me when she's clearly afraid and I am pushing her away asking for a sit and 'watch me'. Broke my heart to watch her panic on the side of the river when I crossed, but man oh man did we party when she finally leaped in and joined me on the other side. I was only 20 feet away and she was on a rope, but you would have thought she scaled a mountain. Now she dives into water like a champ.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There is another thread active right now titled "Fear or Aggression" that I think you can glean from for your situation. I guess it is possible even for the pro's to misinterpret fear from aggression. Sorry, it's titled "or fearful"


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK re the trainer: "I was shocked and upset by this trainers behavior. A couple of things stand out now that I have had some sleep. 
She showed up seemingly prepared to take Shadow on the spot, and she mentioned that she had clients who would be a much better match for Shadow then I am."

I have a phrase for use in response to people like this but I cannot use it here. It has something to do with the horse you rode in on only I have nothing against the horse. So short hand is"Well, really, I have nothing against the horse." I wish you could get your money back.

From what you describe you have a dog that is fearful off of her home grounds. I'd do threshold training (see Pat Miller articles in WHole Dog Journal) to try and get her over this; to build her confidence gradually. It might have been better to start this when Sabis was still with you as gaining confidence away from her "protection" would have probably helped a lot. But that ship has sailed.

Anyway, no go, no send away with this person who assessed your dog and had the nerve to charge you for it. "Give me the dog. I have other people who would do better. You're inept." No thanks is the most polite response I can provide.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

I will say, I was kind of shocked you were charged for this "assessment" as well. Most dog trainers I have encountered, even myself, and even at a protection sport training, the first consultation/assessment is usually free.? Sorry she charged you for this :-(


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

let's just break this down



Sabis mom said:


> The trainer asked me to play with Shadow, so I did. Then I told her to leave it, the ball, so she did what she always does ran at me, slammed her front feet into my stomach, bounced into a sit and barked, then waited for her praise and release. Trainer says that is blatant aggression, Shadow is trying to push me around, and I reward it? She said the barking is threatening, I thought it was just talking.


How old is Shadow? I bet you've always played like this. So she jumps, you've allowed it and this is how she learned to play with you. I see nothing in this part to infer aggression. It's the way you two play together.



Sabis mom said:


> She put a leash on Shadow and tried to leave the yard, without me, and Shadow started bouncing and trying to mouth at her hands, she gave a correction and Shadow shied and hit the brakes. She tried pulling her and Shadow lost it, fighting the leash and growling.


So a stranger came in, tried to take her from her yard. Every trainer I know will have me hand them the leash. I'm passing the dog off and they would not have tried to take them from my yard. She tried to forcibly take Shadow from her home. She gave a strange dog a correction. In Shadow's mind, it was probably an unfair correction and it most likely pissed her off. I don't blame her. And then she proceeded to pull her? What is this woman's experience with dogs? What are her credentials?

Yes, I might term this aggression. But I'm not sure it was totally inappropriate. Only idiots try to manhandle dogs they don't know. 

I have a friend who took a 2 week course for dog training. Now she's an expert. She'll throw a prong on any dog and give them a big ole pop. I'm waiting for the day a dog comes up her arm. And rightfully so. it will be 100% her own fault.

There is zero relationship here between her and Shadow. Zero. I can't fault Shadow.



> I stepped in and took the leash, settled Shadow down and told the trainer we were done. I paid her she gave her assessment and recommendations and left.


Good job here!!



> She showed up seemingly prepared to take Shadow on the spot, and she mentioned that she had clients who would be a much better match for Shadow then I am.


This part is CRAZY. Are you sure? You do take things very personally so are you sure this was her attitude? Because if it was, it is 100% inappropriate and more than a little terrifying. It would make me question if this woman was truly a trainer or someone stealing dogs. Pair that with the fact that she seems to be totally clueless on dog behavior and body language. It is THAT strange to me.

From what you've described here and in other threads, I think Shadow is fearful. You seem to be doing a fine job exposing her to things, managing her environment and limiting to many outside influences that would disrupt her. Just keep on doing what you are doing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> It would make me question if this woman was truly a trainer or someone stealing dogs.


It was late when I responded but that exact same thought occurred to me also!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I will say, I was kind of shocked you were charged for this "assessment" as well. Most dog trainers I have encountered,* even myself, and even at a protection sport training*, the first consultation/assessment is usually free.? Sorry she charged you for this :-(


you have experience at protection training to assess or consult?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax,

Shadow is 4, and yes I do allow the jumping and barking. To me it shows enthusiasm and engagement, both of which I like. Plus, Shadow is really bouncy by nature and I try to let her be herself. 
I told the trainer she should let me leash Shadow and 'we' could all take a walk. She told me I was catering to Shadows whims and allowing an aggressive dog to dictate my actions. 
She showed up with a contract/release, which I would not have had time to properly read anyway, and a crate.
She is apparently new to the area and has set up a storefront not far from here, I have not been there. She was dropping off cards at the pet store when I got dog food the other day. The girls and I were talking about Shadow, they have known her all her life, and she interjected and said she would be happy to do an evaluation and since she was building her business she would give me a break on the price. The others I have had done I was charged $165-$280. She offered for $125 which according to her was half price, said she could squeeze me in Sunday evening.

I'm pretty poor and doing the best I can, a deal is good if it works. This one was a fail but fortunately Shadow seems none the worse for it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I will say, I was kind of shocked you were charged for this "assessment" as well. Most dog trainers I have encountered, even myself, and even at a protection sport training, the first consultation/assessment is usually free.? Sorry she charged you for this :-(


I disagree. I've always been charged for the first visit.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> Jax,
> 
> Shadow is 4, and yes I do allow the jumping and barking. To me it shows enthusiasm and engagement, both of which I like. Plus, Shadow is really bouncy by nature and I try to let her be herself.
> I told the trainer she should let me leash Shadow and 'we' could all take a walk. She told me I was catering to Shadows whims and allowing an aggressive dog to dictate my actions.
> ...


Wow. That's pretty steep. I have only ever paid that amount for a day long seminar. Never for a training lesson. That is very much not a 'deal'. Make sure you give the feedback to the girls at the pet store on your experience.

And if she's 'new to the area' exactly what clients does she have that would be great for Shadow?

A contract and a crate, huh? So you were to sign and hand over your dog? That's creepy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The trainer that I worked with ended up with her arm tore up. She had no clue how to handle Midnite and couldn't control him. Before she took his leash she had me hold him to show her what he did with other dogs, at this point I knew what I was doing but she thought she knew better. I watched in horror as he ripped open her arm with his claws. I kinda did the same thing you did, I walked over grabbed Midnite, listened to her suggest personal training. I smiled, took her card and thought to myself that Midnite would probably kill her if he was alone with her. I never looked back nor will I ever recommend that crazy woman. 

This one didn't charge for the evaluation. The most I paid for an evaluation was $35.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I just read through the whole thread and a couple of things popped out at me. She displays some of the same behaviours that Kyleigh did after her "attacks". (she was attacked 5 times in 6 months, and became a bundle of nerves).

The only comment I have about the person who showed up for the assessment is that she sounds like a nutjob ... honestly, I wouldn't have even paid her ...

So here's my two cents (or maybe 5, depending on how long this becomes LOL) (this was all after the incidents)

Kyleigh showed ZERO separation anxiety from me in the house, or whenever I was around. I could put her in a sit / stay and go anywhere in the house - never an issue. 

However, the second anyone (and I mean people she knew and had known for 2 years) tried to take the leash and walk more than 5 feet away, she went ballistic - freaking out, alligator rolls, eye rolls, just nuts. I was stunned to say the least. 

She was also now very reactive to other dogs who came running up to her (I understood her "fear") but her reaction was WAY over the top - she would grab them, pin them and just lose it on them. Thankfully, she never broke skin. After 3 episodes, I simply avoided other dogs. 

After a year of this I FINALLY found someone who knew what they were talking about. I attended a three day seminar on "aggressive dogs" (because that's what I thought I had). I didn't - I have a very nervous and anxiety-ridden dog (because of the attacks). 

I don't coddle my dog, I never have. I never freaked out when she got attacked, and I never lost it when the roles were reversed. 

I had to learn to teach Kyleigh that was fine without me being within a 5 foot radius of her all the time. 

The first step was the trainer / behaviourist took her by the leash - she was on a slip collar - and walked about 8 feet away from me. Ky lost it - but the trainer let her lose it. She simply stood there and let Kyleigh get it out of her system. It took about 10 minutes for her to calm down and just sit there. It took another HOUR for her to quit whining and shaking. 

I admit it was hard to watch - but the reality is she wasn't being hurt ... she needed to recognize that she CAN be 8 feet away from me and not die. 

We repeated this about 15 times over the 3 days. By the third time on the first day, she quit freaking out, and would just whine. So progress was being made. By the end of the three days, anyone could take the leash, and walk around the room with her. She still looked around for me, but she didn't lose it, and she was no longer whining. 

Slow steps ... but they do work. 

The other command I learned was "place." (You can google it, it would take about 6 more paragraphs to explain, and I'm sure this is going to be long enough!)

The next thing I did was to tape her actions while I was at work. She had free roam of my bedroom (the parrot has the run of the rest of the basement while I'm at work!)

I taped about 2 hours of it ... ALL she did was pace ... for the entire two hours. So ... she wasn't relaxed and chilled like I thought ... she was working herself into a tizzy waiting for me to go back home. 

The next day she was back in her crate, and I set up the camera. Not a peep. I heard some moans and groans as she moved around but that was it. 

While I was at the training, I got the name of someone who could do "magic" with dogs. I looked her up, went on three social walks with her and her clients. I talked to them, I watched her with the dogs and I was impressed. 

On the fourth walk I had a very frank discussion with her about Ky's issues, and the problems I was having dealing with them ... how the heck do you deal with separation anxiety when you're the only one who works with your dog! Not easy!

She offered to take Kyleigh for a week. The upside was she lives 5 minutes from my house. The downside? I wasn't allowed to visit for the first three days LOL

I took her up on her offer. She was freaking amazing. And, she sent me videos of all the stuff she was doing with her. I got to see amazing progress. On day 5 I finally got to go and see my dog. I simply showed up on the sidewalk where they were walking and fell in step with them. Ky looked up and did a short whine, wagged her tail, but that was IT. I was thrilled (and a little dejected LOL ... I admit it). We walked for about half an hour, I took the leash while she gave me all my instructions. At the end of half an hour, she took the leash and walked off with my dog. Ky glanced back but kept going. 

The other thing that she did was reinforce the place and that it meant BE CALM ... CHILL OUT ... RELAX!!!!

Sorry, this is so long ... what I was trying to illustrate is that your dog sounds like she a lot of similar "emotional" issues like Kyleigh did. Ky was super trained, but vibrated between commands, I thought she was excited - she wasn't - she was anxious. 

Do you have a friend that is really good with dogs? Someone you could trust to take your dog for a week and work on some of the separation anxiety issues? (And if they have a dog, you could swap? LOL)

Do you use crate training? What is she like when you're not home? Have you taped her to see how she reacts? 

The flirt pole - Kyleigh has a super high prey drive (she can and has caught a couple of squirrels - EEK) - thus why her and the parrot are never out together LOL ... I use the flirt pole to work that impulse control, and to fulfill her drive to chase / hunt and catch. 

I tied an old rag to the "whip" part of it, so she has something to really "kill" when she does catch it. 

You can work on commands with this too - leave it / wait / stay ... while you're waving it around. 

A board and train - with someone you TRUST (get references if you need to - a good boarder / trainer will gladly hand them out) can work miracles with your dog. 

I'm a trainer, I've trained for years ... and yet this was something that was beyond me (since I was the emotional bond problem LOL) and it was the best thing I ever did. 

I'm not sure if you have asked other people on here about an awesome GSD trainer in your area ... I think you need more of a behaviourist rather than a trainer ... they are two radically different concepts and approaches ... and a lot of trainers think they can be both, when the reality is - they can't!

I had an anxious dog that would do any command I gave her - but she wasn't relaxed or calm. A behaviourist can help you get that dog that does the command, and then CHILLS while waiting for the next one. 

I really hope you have some success finding someone that can work with you and not against you ... and no, I would never suggest rehoming your dog ... that idea for your situation blows my mind!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Sabis,

I'm confident you will find what is best for the dog and it's coexistence with her peers and humans. If I am reading you properly...yes, the spirit,energy and character of any of the dogs I have had...always seemed to be something never to quash...it was their character and uniqueness. However, and I'm sure you know what I mean...creating this desired coexistence comes at the expense of compromise I guess.....dogs are pretty good at compromising when they are in good hands. Good of you to take the effort you did with this trainer....nothing wrong with one doing extra for the doggy.

Trainers need business...just like everyone else mostly.


SuperG


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

SuperG said:


> "_She is fond of fence running and will fight with other dogs at a fence._"
> 
> I might take advantage of this situation and incorporate it into my training procedure. I have 3 neighbor fence dogs which used to easily incite my dog ( it's always the other dog's fault  ). Letting the fence theatrics continue is just making the problem worse and ingraining undesirable behavior. When I finally decided to step in and stop my dog's "tough fence dog" routine, I started with her on the prong and lead and worked her at a comfortable distance from the other dog's at the fence while they were going off...I guess my thought was..she needs to first very clearly get the idea that the unbridled loosing her marbles behavior with the fence running is not acceptable and has repercussions. From that point, I have worked very hard on creating focus with the dog and then applied this focus while the other dogs were at the fence barking at us. Much time was spent on obedience and engagement while the 3 fence chargers were present and my dog is probably about 90% on ignoring them. I somewhat believe part of the success was due to familiarity with these dogs but the temptation is still there....and I am still working on this behavior with my dog currently while on leash with other dogs she is not as familiar with....
> 
> ...


Let me ask you this G. In training your dog this way, do you think it would effect her behavior to alert you if an unwanted person was trying to enter your backyard? I'm just asking because I go through the same thing with Cruz and have gotten him to not fence fight anymore but that scenario did cross my mind when training Cruz. I have yet to get someone to try and "break" into my backyard for some reason.:rolleyes2:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Kyleigh, Shadow was attacked 3 different times by 3 different loose dogs. I *know* that's why she doesn't like strange dogs. She was attacked by a Golden-yup a Golden-that jumped over my fence and grabbed Shadow in her yard, were she should have been safe, when she was very little. Then she was attacked by a Rottie, that belonged in one of the shop yards behind our house. Then she was attacked by a BC that lived a few doors down. This all happened in her first year. I don't expect her to be ok with random dogs, for that matter I don't wonder why she prefers to stay at home.

Jax, it's expensive here. And the eval was supposed to be 3 hours, I called it early. She seemed angry when I refused her offer to take Shadow for 'board and train', but as you said I do take things personally so maybe I misread.

Llombardo, Bud put a handler on a table, minus one leg of his pants years ago. Had I not stepped in Shadows next move was up the leash, and as I said she is freaky quick. 


SuperG, Shadows spirit is precious to me, I would not see it damaged for poor handling or impatience.

Chip, that's exactly what I thought when I woke up. Last night I was frustrated and upset, so not thinking.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

jafo220 said:


> Let me ask you this G. In training your dog this way, do you think it would effect her behavior to alert you if an unwanted person was trying to enter your backyard? I'm just asking because I go through the same thing with Cruz and have gotten him to not fence fight anymore but that scenario did cross my mind when training Cruz. I have yet to get someone to try and "break" into my backyard for some reason.:rolleyes2:



I can't honestly even take a stab at that....I'm concentrating on getting my dog to a level where she can go anywhere I am allowed to take her....I have no real exposure to training a dog to react to a human trying to enter my backyard but would somewhat expect my dog to take a posture which would certainly seem "inquiring" ...unless of course she knew the person and then would be a different creature.

There are others in this forum which could answer better if a dog can turn it on and off dependent on whether it is dog or human.

Of course a foaming mouthed fence chaser/fighter would make many a potential intruder think twice.


SuperG


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Jax,
> 
> Shadow is 4, and yes I do allow the jumping and barking. To me it shows enthusiasm and engagement, both of which I like. Plus, Shadow is really bouncy by nature and I try to let her be herself.
> I told the trainer she should let me leash Shadow and 'we' could all take a walk. She told me I was catering to Shadows whims and allowing an aggressive dog to dictate my actions.
> ...


To me, there is no way, no how, not even a smidgen of a chance in the most remote corners of my being that would allow someone I don't know to crate my dog after signing a contract and let them have him or her. There would absolutely have to be a dead body laying on the floor before that transpired. It just would not happen. Only over my dead body, literally. 

I feel very strongly in saying, take your dog and RUN the other way! DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING INVOLVING YOUR DOG! When it's in writing, unless you wrote it, it will never benefit you. 

This sounds like an A1 smoooz job to me by this person to try to take control of your dog away from you and it for all intents and purposes could be permanent. You didn't read the contract. Think about this, you used the word "release" in describing this contract. Not good. And why, would you need a contract as a trainer? This is a deal that smells bad from here to Saskatoon.

I caught the end of your post in deciding not to go this route. But I felt I had to write what I did because, that situation is scary to me. I felt I needed to put that out there. Shadow may or may not have aggression issues. But one thing is for sure. You are her protector. Not the other way around, and you just past one test of protecting your dog. Proud of you. Shadow needs you. You may let her stretch the boundaries but you seem to be connected well. Just discourage her from snipping and such. But by all means find a legit trainer to help you.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I can't honestly even take a stab at that....I'm concentrating on getting my dog to a level where she can go anywhere I am allowed to take her....I have no real exposure to training a dog to react to a human trying to enter my backyard but would somewhat expect my dog to take a posture which would certainly seem "inquiring" ...unless of course she knew the person and then would be a different creature.
> 
> There are others in this forum which could answer better if a dog can turn it on and off dependent on whether it is dog or human.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to put that out there. I'm not really talking about training the dog to differ between the two. I just was wondering how you and I are training these dogs not to fence fight would effect there natural tendency to protect their yard or to posture. Of course every dog is different as is the environment and situation. It just crossed my mind at one time while training. Just something to think about. May not even matter.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Of course a foaming mouthed fence chaser/fighter would make many a potential intruder think twice.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Ha ha! How true.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> She sat in my lap when the trainer first arrived, that's dominance
> She slammed into me and barked, that's aggression
> She growls when she does zoomies, that's aggression
> She barked for her ball, that's dominance and aggression.


Pffft.  Keefer has always been a lap sitter. He's not the slightest bit dominant, he just craves close physical contact. You should see how Halo barks at flyball when we go into the ring and lineup. Oy. :wild: It's neither dominance or aggression, it's simply amped up excitement and anticipation.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am glad I came here to ask. I just thought as Jax said that I was over thinking and over reacting, taking it all personally.
Look, I'm no expert and I'm not perfect. Neither is Shadow. I allow all sorts of behaviors that would probably make 'good' owners cringe. I like that my dogs jump up to hug me, I think it's sweet that Shadow 'holds' my hand when she's nervous, they routinely climb all over me, lay on me, stand on me. My only goal is for the dogs to be happy and healthy. 
I am done with the trainers around here. I've had it. I'm sick of being told there's something wrong with Shadow, I know that! I don't need to pay some stranger to tell me that. I wanted guidance on helping her, not a list of her faults and mine, and an offer to put her in a 'better' home. And there is no way on this planet I would sign my dog over, for any reason. I'm panicking about leaving her with my husband for 3 days next week. 
Thanks for the advice guys, I will look into your suggestions and do some adjusting with her routine. 
I was going to check out prong collars, but I think I need a trainer to help with that unless one of you is an expert. I've never used one.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> A contract and a crate, huh? So you were to sign and hand over your dog? That's creepy.


it just gets worst and worst!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not a fan of prong collars on fearful dogs. IME, it made it worse with Jax and just ramped her up. What did help is just teaching her incompatible behaviors for her reactions.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I'm not a fan of prong collars on fearful dogs. IME, it made it worse with Jax and just ramped her up. What did help is just teaching her incompatible behaviors for her reactions.


 Ok none of that! I do not need Shadow any more 'up' then she is. 

Any good training videos? Or someone was talking about online training classes?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

do you have the book control unleashed by leslie mcdevitt ?
to be truthful, some dogs just can't deal with public areas and need to be in their own little world. They can still live a fulfilled life and be happy. I don't put expectations on dogs that are too hard to overcome real world situations....yes that may sound like I'm slacking, but there is always a limit to what a dog can deal with. Can't change genetics.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Denise Fenzi has some online classes. Not sure what would be appropriate for a fearful dog. 

Depending on what you want to accomplish, what worked for me was 
1) shutting down the reaction. I used an e-collar on Jax.
2) Immiediate behavior modification exercises to create an opposite behavior.

I think it's super important when giving a correction that you don't say a word. The correction is not about you. It's about their behavior. So let it be. Don't draw their attention to you when you are giving a correction. If you use a choker, calmly lift up and take their air away for a split second. An e-collar, give an appropriate stim level. A prong, one hard pop. whatever correction you use, make it count. No nagging pops. Make that first one count and lesson your chances of having to do a second one.

Understand her threshhold. Don't take her into a situation over that and then correct her. It's totally unfair to her. Set her up for success so you don't have to correct her. 

Look up LAT (Look at that) and BAT. Both methods work!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> do you have the book control unleashed by leslie mcdevitt ?
> to be truthful, some dogs just can't deal with public areas and need to be in their own little world. They can still live a fulfilled life and be happy. I don't put expectations on dogs that are too hard to overcome real world situations....yes that may sound like I'm slacking, but there is always a limit to what a dog can deal with. Can't change genetics.


I very much agree with this. Our Boxer is one of those dogs. Just let her live in her environment. Don't rock the boat to much on her.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Chip, that's exactly what I thought when I woke up. Last night I was frustrated and upset, so not thinking.


Well you did a pretty good job of describing the situation and your experience.

I did not know the whole back story but I saw enough to say..well this is someone that knows what they're doing so...what's the deal with the nut job trainer??

Sadly it sounds like you got screwed on the "competent" and "qualified" trainer part! When one looks for help there is the expectation that the person we plan to hire knows at least as much as we do!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> you have experience at protection training to assess or consult?


I went to have my dog "assessed" but really I was going around seeing other trainers to assess what was out there as far as competition/ methods / prices etc... Before I started my business. Before I started dog training but after certification I went to several trainers of all different styles to check them out.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Creepy that this so called "trainer" wanted to crate and take her. Thank god you didn't allow it or sign anything.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I disagree. I've always been charged for the first visit.


Hmmm.. I have never been charged for a consultation? Just lucky I guess? I also personally, NEVER charge my clients for a consult. I give 30 min free consults where I take all their information and assess the dog's needs. At the same time, I don't provide any information on how I am going to train (well the method yes) but not a step by step how to, because well, you have to pay for that ;-). However I do let the client know what my goals are, what I think we achieve, what issues the dog might be having, and what would they like to achieve, etc... This is free. *shrug* and I have been given the same for free.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Ok none of that! I do not need Shadow any more 'up' then she is.


That is obviously the goal..kind of..and I'm sure you are able to see all of the dog's subtle indicators before she is all ramped up...a change in her head position...maybe coming forward and perhaps lowering....the ears moving from the side to a position more forward...it's posture..it's gait...it's focus on the target....from my experience so far...and I still am working at it...I have found corrections applied well before the dog ever gets to the stage where it's about to light up...go much further in the overall process in changing this particular behavior.

Whatever correction works and breaks the chain of the ensuing undesired and unchecked behavior and gets your pooch to a state where it is focusing on you...seems to be the name of the game...in my opinion.

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Before I get totally warped by reading the whole thread, I am going to give my impression of your initial post. 

I think that you have to go with your gut. This is a dog that you have had for years? Then you know if the assessment is not valid. 

On the other hand we ask for help when we need help. The problem is that it is hard to know if the person that we have engaged actually has the experience and knowledge to properly assess the dog/handler. If you think it is totally off, then get another opinion. 

I think sometimes we have to eat humble-pie before we can make the changes that we need to make, but I also think we have to have some confidence in the diagnoses to properly follow a treatment plan. 

What you described in the dog playing with you, sounds like a routine, and the barking does sound more like communication, maybe being amped up, and maybe being what is getting her a treat. No red flag for me there. I can see it being annoying for me, but what might be annoying to me, may not be for you. 

I think that all the work that you have done with this dog is masking the normal signs this woman is used to when she sees fear-aggression in a dog. So she is not diagnosing fear, just aggression. 

Yeah, her trying to take your dog out of the yard, and correcting her -- glad you stepped in at that point and said you were done. Good, find someone else to work with.

I do not think board and train is a good idea. What someone might do to a dog that is willing to bite at a board and train place makes me nervous all over. 

As for the alpha-theory, our dogs are smart, they know we are not dogs. They respect us or do not respect us, but not because we act like the dominant dog in a pack. I think dogs respect people who are totally comfortable/confident around them. And I think that a dog is a beast that likes structure and consistency. If we are relatively calm, have matters in hand, are clear about our expectations, and consistent with our rewards, dogs will generally respect us. 

Some people are natural dog-people. Dogs just gravitate to them, and without much effort on their part, the dogs relax and follow them. The rest of us studder and stammer through are first dog or two or three if we don't come up with our first real challenge until then. But with patience for ourselves, we can move ourselves closer to being the person dogs just gravitate towards.

You are muzzling your dog when you are out and about with her. And muzzling her at the vet. She is four. Maybe she will be muzzled forever when out and about. This is not a fate worse than death. Generally, I would hope that with training and an improved bond, the muzzle would be temporary. But you know your dog will bite. It is probably best to just remove that possibility. Use the muzzle. 

If she is fine for bbqs at home, then she sees plenty of people when she is in her comfort zone. Why does she need to play nice to strangers away from home? Just muzzle her and reduce some of the anxiety about the whole thing. 

I would make a list of the things that you would like to change/improve with her. Then I would prioritize it carefully. Then I would tackle just the first one, first. I have no way of knowing what that is. But I would probably spend no more than 5 minutes a day working on it, and then let it go until tomorrow. 

I would make another list. I would list all the things I love about this dog. And I would spend 20 minutes a day specifically doing something with the dog that correlates to one of these things. 

Try to spend 98% of your time with your dog within her comfort zone. Give her a good reason to trust you. 

Good luck with your dog. If you can, get a second opinion. If you can't go with your gut. If you don't think the assessment hit the nail on the head, then treat it with a grain of salt. See if there is anything you can pull out of it. If not, then just forget it completely.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

jafo220 said:


> I just was wondering how you and I are training these dogs not to fence fight would effect there natural tendency to protect their yard or to posture. Just something to think about. May not even matter.



My guess would be....my dog alone in the backyard....whether it was a dog or a stranger approaching the fence...within 30 yards she is losing her crap and at the fence being a TV tough dog....I come out and say " enough" and she backs off and usually comes to me. ....usually.....there are those times however.....LOL. I most always am in the backyard with her when she is out so it's easier to manage.


SuperG


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## Palydyn (Aug 28, 2014)

Here in Southern California some trainers do not charge a fee for an evaluation. Some do, but subtract that fee from the first months training fee. I don't know any that flat out charge an evaluation fee even if you do sign up for training. I'm told one of the areas top trainers who is supposedly very good and very expensive takes a considerable amount of time with a prospect and gives a written assessment of the strengths and weaknesses and a summary of the training required to meet the owners stated goals. He assigns "homework" and gives a written assessments periodically on where you are in reaching those goals. I have been thinking of signing up with him when Rommel finishes his basic obedience course.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> I was shocked and upset by this trainers behavior. A couple of things stand out now that I have had some sleep.
> She showed up seemingly prepared to take Shadow on the spot, and she mentioned that she had clients who would be a much better match for Shadow then I am.
> Llombardo-she's spoiled, not a doubt in my mind. But she's so utterly cute and engaging that I can't help it
> We play find it games and work on impulse control, hence the leave it game. She struggles with obedience, apparently it's boring so we learn tricks and games. Never used a flirt pole, I actively discourage any behavior that promotes biting or chasing, she's a natural hunter and I live in a city.
> ...


Ok, I have read a little further now. It sounds like you are doing awesome with this dog. I think you may be the best person to determine where you want to go with her, and how best to make a plan to get her where you want to go.

Don't be too worried about how fast you get there. Having someone on the outside watching the interaction and giving feedback might be helpful, if you respect their knowledge, experience, and training style AND if they respect you.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Palydyn said:


> Here in Southern California some trainers do not charge a fee for an evaluation. Some do, but subtract that fee from the first months training fee. I don't know any that flat out charge an evaluation fee even if you do sign up for training. I'm told one of the areas top trainers who is supposedly very good and very expensive takes a considerable amount of time with a prospect and gives a written assessment of the strengths and weaknesses and a summary of the training required to meet the owners stated goals. He assigns "homework" and gives a written assessments periodically on where you are in reaching those goals. I have been thinking of signing up with him when Rommel finishes his basic obedience course.


Just curious but does this top trainer charge for the initial assessment? I understand something as involved and detailed as this could require a charge. If they do, how much do they charge? Again, just curious


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I went to a Tires Plus store and had a free evaluation on my tires once.....does that count??


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'd pay for the eval. If the eval is at my home, then the trainer is spending time traveling to get there and time there. The workman is worthy of their hire -- or something like that. 

I think that when we are given a free eval, then we are at a disadvantage because we feel beholden to the person, we feel that we should go with this person because they have already been so nice to us. Nope. Pay for the eval, and then you can be free to decide to go with this trainer or check other people out.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> I'd pay for the eval. If the eval is at my home, then the trainer is spending time traveling to get there and time there. The workman is worthy of their hire -- or something like that.
> 
> I think that when we are given a free eval, then we are at a disadvantage because we feel beholden to the person, we feel that we should go with this person because they have already been so nice to us. Nope. Pay for the eval, and then you can be free to decide to go with this trainer or check other people out.


 I agree totally. It never crossed my mind not to pay her, but she wasn't touching my dog anymore.
And thanks for your insight. I guess I was just hoping ....
I don't know, I keep thinking that the next trainer will know something, that might actually help.
Yup she's spoiled.
Yup she's crazy
Yup she's a mess... but, she's my spoiled, crazy, mess and I love her the way she is. 
We will get there, and it has already been so worth the trip. My biggest fear is failing her. I want her to be happy and whole.


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## BorderKelpie (Apr 26, 2010)

Sabis mom, I don't see how you could possibly be failing Shadow. You have put so much love, compassion and effort into the relationship already. You have shown you have common sense and are probably the best person on the planet to handle Shadow. I wish you could step back a bit and see just how much you have helped her already. There are an awful lot of people in this world that wouldn't have made a 1/10th of the effort you have. 

Keep up the good work and don't forget to pat yourself on the back every once in a while. You're doing a great job!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Posting this here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...82-shy-dogs-fearful-dogs-links-resources.html

And glad you won't be working with that trainer. 

In the link above, there is a link to Tuft's PetFax service (not fax only). It's a consultation with some of the best vet behaviorists in the world, and it's science based behavior and dog training; it's dog friendly. I think it's $250 for 3 months with them. 

You can share videos to help them see her. Any kid you know could help you with that.  I would absolutely use this service if I needed to and I know it would be less than a lot of places with less experienced and less knowledgeable people.

Like onyx said - happy and whole means different things to different dogs. I have dogs that so do not want to be out there in the world, and are happy as little piggies in the house and yard, and secluded places for walks on leash. We have a great time. Actually I understand them better than I do my social dog!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

If you had to pick the one behavior that you feel you need help with the most and is your biggest concern what would it be? How are you currently training her not to do that one thing?

Deciding if the behavior is fear or aggression based to me is to help decide which training method to use to stop that behavior but different training methods are required for different dogs, so it gets complicated. Isn't it crazy when this whole can of worms opens up about the psychology of what the dog's thinking, why it's thinking it, all the other behaviors that are being caused because of it, etc, etc, etc. Makes my head ache. 

To me, dominance is a key factor regardless of the training method or if the behavior is caused by fear, aggression or enjoyment. Everything my pup has learned so far (with very few exceptions) are really mere parlor tricks performed for treats. Though conditioned response will help her down the road (some of these may be life saving), to me they are still only performed at will and not reliable unless dominance is also involved. 

The way I trained my pup to "sit" for example is way different than I train her not to bite power cords. I am bringing dominance and the intensity of communication required with the power cord situation. Can you bring that in yourself when you correct her for fence aggression for example? Picture any person who reaches a hand over your fence instead as a live 220 volt wire you dog is going after, how would you react differently than you do now? Are you at risk of getting bitten if you don't handle Shadow "just right" in these situations? If so, IMO you need to keep trying to find the right local trainer. 

I am also wanting my pup to be as sweet and innocent as she can possibly remain in this world. I also realize now, that my inaction to build more dominance into the relationship for more effective training will do nothing but limit her down the road. We have bonded and her attention span has grown so she's showing great concern now when she does something that is big time wrong. She knows the difference when my dominance is engaged. Not thru yelling or physical correction, I know she can just feel it rolling off of me so to speak and she doesn't want any part of it. 

It's what makes no mean NO. I don't know if any of this helps, but I hope so. I don't know about how a dog that's 4 years old reacts to training or correction as opposed to a much younger dog.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

SabisMom, from everything I have read on this thread, you are doing an excellent job with a difficult situation.

I am not going to debate the methods of the various well-known trainers mentioned as I simply don't know enough about them to give an opinion. One thing I do agree with, however, is the thought that a cookie-cutter approach with dogs (as with people) is doomed to fail. My first dog, a yellow lab named Max, was a gentle soul and harshness would have destroyed him. With Newlie, I can't say that I am harsh, but I have had to learn to be stern with him at times because, even though he is basically a soft German Shepherd, he would run right over me if I didn't stand my ground. Just for example, I have a fairly soft voice. It is fine when we we are playing, or snuggling or praising him, he loves it. However, when I use that voice to give commands, he does not obey me near as well. So, I have had to learn (and I still struggle with this) that I must make my voice louder, deeper and more forceful to get good compliance with commands. Sometimes when I yell "Off," I have a feeling that people in the next county can hear me, but it works. He lets go immediately and sits down.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I need to revise something. I realized this morning when I took the garbage out, I may have been responsible for Shadow fighting at the gate. I still don't like or trust this trainer, but I see no reason to blame her for things she DIDN'T do.
Shadow has been conditioned her whole life to never go through gates, or even near them, without my say so. She barked at me when our old gate blew open. Since I have always been the only person to handle her, it stands to reason that she would translate this conditioning to *only with me* can she proceed through the gate. 

I still dispute that she is just aggressive, and most of your replies seem to agree.

Jean-I will absolutely check that link out, and both you and Onyx raise a point that has been mentioned before. Shadow is happiest at home, or alone with me and Bud. I need to stop bowing to pressure, and just follow Shadows lead.
Borderkelpie- I always thought Shadow was safest to stay with me, sometimes I wonder if I did her a huge disservice. Perhaps someone with more experience could have helped her more. Now it's to late, and she's stuck with me. I absolutely adore her, she is my light, but I don't want to think that my selfishness may have harmed her. 
Stonevintage, her biggest issue is other dogs. That is almost surely fear, so we will proceed from there.
And clearly I need to work on other people handling her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> If you had to pick the one behavior that you feel you need help with the most and is your biggest concern what would it be? How are you currently training her not to do that one thing?
> 
> Deciding if the behavior is fear or aggression based to me is to help decide which training method to use to stop that behavior but different training methods are required for different dogs, so it gets complicated. Isn't it crazy when this whole can of worms opens up about the psychology of what the dog's thinking, why it's thinking it, all the other behaviors that are being caused because of it, etc, etc, etc. Makes my head ache.
> 
> ...


Initially, I was going to say, "No, no, no, No, NO!!!!" But I think I am getting caught up in your terminology, specifically "dominance" which is over-used and terribly abused when it comes to dog training. And your last few bolded statements makes me wonder if we are not so far off the mark. 

Dominance is often a big part of Cesar and earlier trainers who felt you need to show a dog his place, possibly prove to the dog that you are the boss in some physical manner because dogs are pack animal and at the top of the pack is the alpha. 

It is true that dogs can be dominant or submissive or in the middle of the road. But I think we sometimes try to make dogs more human, and sometimes try to make the owners more canine and BOTH of these are problematic. Dogs are naturally dominant or submissive or more in the middle. Humans are not naturally alpha dogs and never will be. We cannot fake it. And our attempts to do so might get us any number of results including enough of what people want to see, to keep doing this. It doesn't make it right. Lots of others have no success at all, and some have been inured. 

Most of the time when we suggest being more dominant when training, it just makes me think bullying. 

But, the no means NO. Suggests something different, as perhaps the dominance rolling off of you. 

One could say a dominant response to an unwanted behavior would be to stand your ground, giving no attention, reward or punishment, but remaining calm and still until the dog realizes that did not work, and desists. Then the dog is given a command and rewarded for complying. The dog learns that what he did do, got him nothing, but doing what you want gets him the good stuff, praise, and treats. 

Once could say that when we only give a command one time. And if the dog does not comply, we then help him complete the exercise and then praise is a form of dominance. It teaches the dog that we expect commands to be complied with, obeyed, and not repeating them does not allow for us to fall into the traps of nagging until we are frustrated and then increasing our volume until the dog figures he better do it -- this teaches them that we are not a good leader, and that they need not heed our voice until it reaches a certain pitch. It teaches them to ignore us. 

As we become more and more experienced, we can just look at the dog and they will stop and get our direction. This could be our dominance, and it could be our bond with the dog. Though those with multiple dogs will find that our experience does translate to other dogs to a great extent. 

With a critter who has a lot of fear and fear-based aggression, we have to be careful with how and when we allow ourselves to be dominant. Such a dog does not need someone to be over-bearing with her. On the other hand, such a one might be much more relaxed if their owner shows strong confidence and steps out in front to protect the dog from a threatening dog. So, a take charge attitude in those situations, might be exactly what the dog needs. 

Correcting a fearful or fear-aggressive dog is difficult, because these dogs do not recover from corrections well or quickly, and it can press them beyond their threshold, and then the dog does something none of us want. This doesn't mean that we are permissive, but it means we manage things much more tightly, we set the dog up to succeed and build her confidence, and we remove a lot of the pot holes so she does fall into them. We manage the environment, we manage encounters, so that the vast majority of the time we need not correct at all, and when we do, a simple Eh! is enough. 

I don't like the fence fighting thing. I see that as a self-rewarding behavior that will amp up a dog. I would take the dog out on lead, and move away from the fence when I see stuff approaching, and then at the first sign of trouble. I wouldn't give the run of the yard until we can get this under control. I would teach the dog what "Knock it off!" and "Quiet" means. And when the dog gets it, then she would get some more freedom.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> Initially, I was going to say, "No, no, no, No, NO!!!!" But I think I am getting caught up in your terminology, specifically "dominance" which is over-used and terribly abused when it comes to dog training. And your last few bolded statements makes me wonder if we are not so far off the mark.
> 
> Dominance is often a big part of Cesar and earlier trainers who felt you need to show a dog his place, possibly prove to the dog that you are the boss in some physical manner because dogs are pack animal and at the top of the pack is the alpha.
> 
> ...


My thoughts were in line with the last part of your post, and I think the op took it that way. Your training examples seem to be to me very correct for the normally sound adjusted dog. Don't think that's what's going on here. 

I was going for the "rare air" aspect of approaching the problem in a different way, since it sounded like the op has worked so hard yet still has problems and has been thru several trainer interviews looking for the right one. 

Do you see the difference between someone training a dog to "sit" with treats until it eventually becomes a habit and training a dog when you catch him in the act of biting an electrical cord? This is what I was trying to explain. There is a communication that is different. Not yelling, not Caesar Milan dominance - just a conveyance that this particular thing is serious and a NO and will never be negotiable. If there was play, it stops, if there was lots of attention, it stops, everything stops and the dog is told to go laydown or isolated.

As I mentioned, if the dog is unpredictable and may even bite her, she should continue to seek the help of a local professional trainer. 

I have walked in her shoes to some extent with a damaged dog and my mind did all the things I think her's is doing to her and it's a nightmare. Here's a sample of what mine was like - He's ok, he's fine for me, I can make it work, (except I'm worried he might bite someone), He's been thru alot (that's why there are problems, but if I just keep things the same,it will be ok), I don't trust other people to handle him ( they couldn't possibly know how to deal with him, I'm the only one because he's do different) AND - Look- he rebels so bad with other people (it will destroy him to be taken out of his yard and house and me, because he's so use to me and can't handle any changes). That was my reality too. 

OP, if I'm really off base on this, please forgive me and ignore, I just saw some stuff in your post that really hit home with me on the last GSD that I had for 14 years. I still feel guilt and wonder what I could have done differently. He was everything to me but had a ton of problems.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think with a fearful dog, you manage the environment to remove access to the electrical cord. Yes you can use a *No! *with a tone that is deep and disapproving. And that will work. For me though, that makes the fearful dog a little more fearful of me. I do not want my dogs to fear me. Not ever. I am not saying I do not correct. But I do not try to prevent a behavior through fear of my wrath. 

And I would never then leave a cord with a dog I saw trying to chew on it, even if I did give him a Come to Jesus correction. So, what's the point, really. Keep the dog in a safe area when you cannot supervise, when you can, a normal Eh! should be plenty to get a very soft dog to leave the cord be. Otherwise remove it. 

I had a dog that took herself outside through the doggy door and stayed in her dog house for three days after a correction. I had set her up. She would pull for the car when we finished a walk, and I was tired of it. So when she started to pull for the car, I YANKED her leash. 

The **** thing was wrapped around her elbow, and I didn't know it, and it hurt her. What a heel. I took her inside, and she went right out the back door and into her kennel and into her house and stayed there. 

Same dog. She was not as outgoing as her sister who started classes when she was 10 weeks old. So I started her at 4 months. She saw another dog and barked at it. I gave her a quick yank and knock that off, and she never barked at another dog. Ever. She snapped at two of them at different points in her life when they got right up in her face. She never bit one. 

I wish I could take back those two failures. But I can't. The dog is excellent at this point. But as a youngster, she was extremely sensitive. Now, I can call her what I want, make all the noise I want, do whatever I want to her, she can take a correction (verbal) now too. She still wants to go to my car.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> I think with a fearful dog, you manage the environment to remove access to the electrical cord. Yes you can use a *No! *with a tone that is deep and disapproving. And that will work.
> 
> Hey! I thought we we weren't supposed to send mixed messages


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Funny you should mention cords.

The cord on my old floor lamp was the only bloody thing Little Miss Shadow EVER chewed. And she would not leave it alone! I finally taped it to the wall. She never touched it again, but to this day if she sees it she will pause and think about it.

I agree with Selzer on this. My goal is to avoid ever having to correct Shadow, I manage her time and environment in ways that make the need minimal. If she is doing something I dislike, I redirect to something I like and reward that. The exception to that is walking. I use the easy walk most times but I switch to her collar for actual training, and she takes a collar correction in stride. Since I DO use a Koehler-like method for leash work, she largely corrects herself so my hands stay clean so to speak. I always go way overboard on the praise with her because she loves it. When I have no choice but to correct, I stay quick, firm and decisive, then we move on to something that will get her lots of praise. We keep training fun, and varied. I incorporate it into games and we work on tricks as well as the basics so she stays engaged and focused, if she blows it we just move on. When I see her starting to come apart I put her in her crate and let her settle, then she comes out and we try again.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> Initially, I was going to say, "No, no, no, No, NO!!!!" But I think I am getting caught up in your terminology, specifically "dominance" which is over-used and terribly abused when it comes to dog training. And your last few bolded statements makes me wonder if we are not so far off the mark.
> 
> Dominance is often a big part of Cesar and earlier trainers who felt you need to show a dog his place, possibly prove to the dog that you are the boss in some physical manner because dogs are pack animal and at the top of the pack is the alpha.
> 
> ...


I am NOT a dog. I am without a doubt the biggest bitch in the house.

I hit Shadow with a pot once. It was an accident. I was putting away dishes and didn't know she was so close. She wouldn't come anywhere near me for days, wouldn't even look at me. No she does not recover well, at all.

The fence fighting, I don't like but mostly because she often injures herself doing it. We are working on it. I use her long line and redirect to a toy.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> My thoughts were in line with the last part of your post, and I think the op took it that way. Your training examples seem to be to me very correct for the normally sound adjusted dog. Don't think that's what's going on here.
> 
> I was going for the "rare air" aspect of approaching the problem in a different way, since it sounded like the op has worked so hard yet still has problems and has been thru several trainer interviews looking for the right one.
> 
> ...


The bolded sentence, getting bit does not bother me. And even a hard bite from Shadow is pretty minor, she's gentle by nature I suspect. Not minimizing a bite, just saying. I'd rather she redirected on me then bit someone else. I have been bitten far worse, arm tendons crushed and hole scars up my forearm from a foster, canine punctures around my kneecap, a hole through my hand just to name a few.

Yes you get it.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

that is insane the trainer tried to leash ur own dog and walk out of your yard with your dog without u??? a good german shepherd would not have gone. I don't want a stranger to ever be able to walk a gsd of mine off my property without me. THat kills the whole point of having a protection or guard dog. lol what a stupid trainer. I can't believe she did that lol

It should be about YOU managing YOUR dog, i don't let trainers take the leash from me or anyone for that matter for any dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Just to update. 
I have had no luck digging up any info on the 'trainer'. Her facebook page shows pics of her with a few dogs but no info on training. The storefront has business hours posted but no one is there, and my attempts to find any other clients have turned up nothing. 
I did speak to the girls at the store and they have removed her cards. 

Note to self: Check on credentials BEFORE letting someone in your house

Shadow does have serious barrier aggression that I am working on and I will continue to work on. Any tips on that would be great


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

pets4life said:


> a good german shepherd would not have gone. .


Both of mine would have gone. How are they not good?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

everybody and anybody is calling themselves a trainer, behaviorist, or communicator these days. saw a rise in the ranks of those professions when the recession hit, lolol...

well, I think you're doing a really good job with this dog, I always say that if a dog with a mouth like a shepherd is truly aggressive you'd be in the hospital. sounds like you know her really well and that she has issues and that you're dealing with them and looking for better ways to deal with them. no reputable, ethical trainer would behave as the one you hired did. was valuable, if for nothing else, to learn the note to self, lolol...

google Brenda Aloff, would likely not be cost effective to have her come where you are (unless you're in Michigan), but she has lots of info on her web site and videos and books, and likely (tho I'm not totally sure), does phone consults. she is ethical, reputable, knowledgeable and a truly nice and funny person. I believe she is a trainer and a behaviorist. 

Take care and good luck!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is what I would do:

Solar powered charger, $99
Zareba® 2 Mile Solar Fence Charger - Tractor Supply Co.

1/4 mile galvanized steel electric fence wire, $14.99: 
Bekaert 17 Gauge Galvanized Electric Fence Wire, 1/4 Mile Spool - Tractor Supply Co.

Plastic insulator posts, $1.99/Per x how many (1 post/2-3 feet of length works good):
Zareba® 30 in. Green Garden Fence Post - Tractor Supply Co.


Ground post, $1.99:
Steel Electric Fence Post, 48 in. x 7/17 in. Round - Tractor Supply Co.

This is specifically made to keep pets and small animals out of sections of your yard that you do not want the animals in. If you can back the dog up away from the fence, they do not get as amped up. They do not like getting zapped, but the beauty of this is they see the wire, and avoid it on their own. They do not see you as giving them a correction. They do not have to wear a collar. 

When the element wears out, the dog doesn't know it and will still avoid the wire. 

You do not have to teach the dog anything, they learn on their own to avoid that area. 

It is highly portable so if you decide you want to make it even further away, or want to add your flower garden, you can. 

The wire here is galvanized steel, 1/4 mile. The element says steel or aluminum. Not sure if that makes a difference. I used aluminum wire -- doesn't rust. You might want more length as the insulators allow for several lines. I used just one line to keep dogs from digging under or climbing over the fencing. Worked. Dogs would run up, put the breaks on to see where the wire was and then run alongside it.

If that on its own does not work, Buy some cheap tarps, and put them up to block the view of the little dogs. You can tie wrap them to the original fencing and blocking the view makes fence fighting so much less rewarding that it pretty much takes care of it. 

Good luck.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

sorry jax should have used another word, obv you have nice dogs with a good nature. I just do not expect certain breeds to leave with a stranger like that. JMHO


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Interesting. I know many GSDs, Dobes, Rotts that would leave with a stranger and are still great representative of the breeds.

Fear is why the OP's dog didn't leave with the stranger. Not an instinct that she shouldn't leave with a stranger.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

maybe you are right fear was the reason in the OP case but personally i don't think it is something id wanna see in a protection breed/guard dog. again JMHO. I can leave a dog with you tell them to wait while i go do something. It also depends on how that individual dog is trained. SOme are trained and are use to multiple handlers etc.. it would make a good thread topic though Im curious how others would expect theirs to do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I completely disagree with that. Why, when I hand the leash off to stranger, would my confident dog NOT go? I would expect some trepidation from them if I was leery or they sensed something off in the other person, but just an average person? There are very few dogs that wouldn't allow that. I know of some that are very civil dogs that wouldn't allow that. But overall, most dogs would be fine with it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Think about it, which is more likely for a confident dog?

A. Dog only wants to be commanded by its owner, and therefore won't go with a stranger even if the owner is right there and allowing it.

B. Dog reads cues of owner and stranger and when the stranger takes the leash, and the owner does not object, the dog is willing to be led away from the owner.

Because I am not into heavy socialization, my dogs generally do not want to be led away by someone else, and will generally try to get back to me. I then say, "Go with her/him" and the dog will turn and go with the stranger. I think that if I wanted to train a dog in protection, then I would want a dog who is at least confident enough to do that, though, until a dog has a decent bond with their current handler, I don't know that it is fair to make that test with dogs. If the dog is not sensing confidence in his owner/handler, then how can we expect the dog to walk confidently away with a stranger?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

the german shepherd dog is not a protection dog or a guard dog, they are a herding breed. some may be suitable to be _trained_ as a protection dog or a guard dog, some may not. anyone who believes that just by nature a shepherd can make a judgement call and not go with a stranger is, in most cases, incorrect. now I have one that no one in their right mind would get close enough to for him to leave with them, lolol...a legend in his own mind, lolol...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Right Katieliz! LOL Our Boxer was like that. She was a legend in many people's minds. Like the mailman who wouldn't come to the door and the vets that handed us a muzzle when we walked thru the door.

While my shepherds are velcro dogs, they can easily be led away by a stranger. Jax was socialized for the CGC test and had a fit during separation. We had to practice. she won't go with someone unless I tell her to and often I have to walk part way to get her moving. Seger was never handed off to anyone until the test and never made a peep. He's never been "socialized" in the sense that I had people fawning over him to make him love people. but I can hand the leash off to anyone and they can walk away with him. Guess which one has the better temperament and nerve?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

is Seger named after Bob?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

katieliz said:


> *the german shepherd dog is not a protection dog or a guard dog, they are a herding breed*. some may be suitable to be _trained_ as a protection dog or a guard dog, some may not. anyone who believes that just by nature a shepherd can make a judgement call and not go with a stranger is, in most cases, incorrect. now I have one that no one in their right mind would get close enough to for him to leave with them, lolol...a legend in his own mind, lolol...


Actually if you read the original goal, it was for a herder that would play with the shepherds children and defend the home and family.
As I stated I believe my conditioning her to _never go through the gate without me_ may have played a role here. But she does not like to be forcibly separated from me, and I did suggest that 'we' should take a walk, as a better solution initially.
Sabi was a social, easy, friendly dog. I could hand off her leash with no issues, but never, ever could anyone reach for her leash, or try to put one on her. 
Bud would probably leave with anyone, but no one ever tries

I thought about an electric fence but I think I am going to talk to Lou and see if I can use the ecollar to recondition the barrier aggression.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

You can definitely use the e-collar for barrier aggression. I suggest you go through the recall protocol first, to collar condition the dog, and then the crittering protocol.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

katieliz said:


> is Seger named after Bob?


No. LOL I never gave Bob thought when I was naming him but I get that a lot. Seger is Old English for Sea Warrior.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> You can definitely use the e-collar for barrier aggression. I suggest you go through the recall protocol first, to collar condition the dog, and then the crittering protocol.


 Thanks David! 

I was thinking about the crittering protocol. I thought the premise would work for barrier aggression.
Lou has been a great source for me, the only thing I must be cautious of is how quick she learns. I way overdid the recall.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

They were originally suppose to protect the shepherd along with herding, so they are both,an only herding dog is like a BC or cattle dog. AAlso didn't they originally protect the sheep as well?

They are one of the few last dogs (along with dutch sheps and mals) that seem to be able to do good in PP that ive seen in the last 5 years.


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