# Defiance (help!)



## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

My 3.5 year-old male german shepherd (whom I've had for almost a year, he's a rescue dog), usually listens to my commands perfectly, on a dime. However, for the past couple of Saturdays (when I'm home, and get to spend more time with him), he's blatantly refused my "come" command when out in the field (I live on a 5 acre ranch). He's doing this especially when he's inside his fenced 1 acre pen, which I rarely ever go into. He's refusing to come out of the pen when I command "come." He actually turns around, and goes to lay down. I've been going to get him with choker collar and leash, and have been being quite strict with him and "coming" is not an option, whether he's in his pen or anywhere else on the property. However, he's not following through. 

I've noticed too that when I tell him "in your pen," which is a command he's mastered and basically tells him to run to his pen, lately, he's been walking slowly, stopping, and looking back to see if I really "mean" what I say. When I start walking toward him (saying again, "in your pen") then he moves. 

I can't tell you how much this is infuriating me. The fact that he's always checking back to see if I'm serious about my "in your pen" command (where he never used to do that, he used to go right in), tells me he's challenging me. And when he doesn't come out of his pen on command, tells me again he's challenging me. It could be that he's coming to think "his" pen is really his, and that I have no power there. He actually lies down, and nothing I tell him has any effect.

Any advice? Oh, and another thing, when I try to reinforce the "come" command from his pen, or the "in your pen" command, by putting the choker on him, he always pleads innocent and yelps and whines, to the point where my neighbors probably think I'm beating him. This infuriates me even more, because he deserves to be grabbed by the scruff of his neck so I can reinforce my command, but the drama he puts on is a bit much. If he disobeyed like this in the house, I wouldn't care how much of a big deal he makes, but outside, it's hard to impose the discipline (I'm talking only insisting he follow on the collar, he's sometimes even resisting that) when he whines and yelps like a big baby. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Again, inside the house, and surrounding proximity, he's listening great, and always has. If I called him from the bedroom to the office, he's come on a dime. But once he's out in the field or in his pen, he's testing my patience big time. 

Other than this, he's a great dog behavior-wise. 

Thanks, 
Dan.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

He's not challenging you.

He doesn't want to go in his pen because it's boring in there by himself and he'd rather you be paying attention to him. Try playing with him in there onces in a while so it is a fun place to be.

What do you usually do with him when you call him to "come" out of the pen? Does it mean the fun is over? Calling your dog to "come" should always mean something good (lots of treats/praise or a quick game to reward them). Right now, all he knows is that coming to you when in his pen means you get scary.

I would never reinforce a come command with negative reinforcement, it's sure fire way to make sure they will refuse it when they have the option.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Thank you for your advice, but I disagree with it. If I'm out walking with him and need him to come immediately (suppose a car is coming, or a train), he has to know to come regardless of whether I have treats or whatever. I'm all for positive reinforcement, and I give him plenty of treats, but he has to obey even when it doesn't like it or want to. He also needs to know there's a consequence to not obeying important commands, and not just a reward if he does obey them.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

I agree with Jamie. you need to make his pen a fun pace to be in, ie playing with him near and in it, putting toys in there with him, things like that.

if you punish him when he comes to you you're making him NOT want to come with you. No matter how mad I am at my dog for not coming when I tell him too, when he comes I act all happy, praising, treating and/or playing tug. I found out the hard way,or rather my mom did, when she;d get mad at him for not coming and I had to re-teach him come because he decided, since he was getting punished for coming (as he saw it), that he didn't want to listen anymore. It took a little bit for him to realize that coming when told to means good things.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

kaiserdog said:


> Thank you for your advice, but I disagree with it. If I'm out walking with him and need him to come immediately (suppose a car is coming, or a train), he has to know to come regardless of whether I have treats or whatever. I'm all for positive reinforcement, and I give him plenty of treats, but he has to obey even when it doesn't like it or want to. He also needs to know there's a consequence to not obeying important commands, and not just a reward if he does obey them.


you don't always have to give treats, I don't always have treats on me so I use praise, petting happy voice things like that. I trained my dog to work for me regardless of treats or not, because I made it fun with praise instead of treats.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Positive reinforcement doesn't equal just treats. Like I said, praise him every time he comes to you - you should always have that on you. It's about making YOU the best thing ever to the dog. I prefer my dog to come to me because I am nice to him not because he is too afraid not to.

You can continue to punish him for not coming but does that seem to be working? Or is he refusing to listen more?

I am not against appropriate corrections for not listening to commands. But if your dog is carrying on the way you say he is, then your corrections aren't fair. And since not listening in your fenced in yard isn't a life or death situation, it is the perfect opportunity to practice only being positive since he isn't going to get hurt and you will be building on the idea that coming to you always means something good.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

99% of the time he comes to me because he wants to see me. 1% of the time I need him to come when I need him to, and when he may not want to. That's up to him to handle, not me to tempt him with treats and sunshine. What he's doing lately is testing the waters to see if he actually HAD to do what I tell him to do. He's listened all along, and if I tell him to go to his pen, I can't attach a bouquet of flowers with that each time. He has to listen even when he doesn't want to. And when he just looks at me without any reaction to a clear command, I'm not about to pull out a treat to appease him. The dog is treated like royalty, which may be the problem in the first place, that he's forgotten his place in the pack at times.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

kaiserdog said:


> 99% of the time he comes to me because he wants to see me. 1% of the time I need him to come when I need him to, and when he may not want to. That's up to him to handle, not me to tempt him with treats and sunshine. What he's doing lately is testing the waters to see if he actually HAD to do what I tell him to do. He's listened all along, and if I tell him to go to his pen, I can't attach a bouquet of flowers with that each time. He has to listen even when he doesn't want to. And when he just looks at me without any reaction to a clear command, I'm not about to pull out a treat to appease him. The dog is treated like royalty, which may be the problem in the first place, that he's forgotten his place in the pack at times.


but the point is is that you don't need treats at all times, praise works just as well if not better than treats, because you always have it with you. You don't even have to touch him (most of the time) just tell him good boy in a happy voice.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

So, the consequences recently associated with your command to come are you attaching a choke collar and leash when you are "infuriated" at him, and your actions cause him to whine and yelp to the point that the far away neighbors can hear him? No wonder he doesn't want to respond with a positive recall. If/when he does come to you, you leash him, choke him, make him whine and yelp, and then put him in his pen all alone, what possible reason does he have for WANTING to come to you? He's not stupid, you know. 
You need to change his concept of what the consquence of coming to you is. Coming to you should always mean "jackpot"! He should fully believe that coming to you when you call is the absolute best,happiest, most exciting place for him to be; far better than across the field, far better than chasing the squirrel, far better than anything other "thing" in his mind. What you are doing right now is convincing him that coming to you means: 1. You will be angry with him when he gets there. 2. You will attach a leash and a choke collar and make him whine and yelp. 3. You will ultimately lock him away from you in solitude, when what he wants more than anything else is spend happy time with you. 
You are not encouraging your dog, you are DISCOURAGING him.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

I praise him continuously when he does good. I purchase steak bones, and feed him steak on Friday nights. I let the dog sleep on his own couch. I feed him gourmet dishes every night. I pamper him. And when he doesn't obey my command, it's HIM challenging me, not me all of a sudden doing something wrong. What I need to know is how to correct his territorial behavior around certain parts of the property, and remind him that I'm alpha, and he's a lowly second member of the pack. Maybe instead of treating him like a king, I should start treating him like a dog, that might work.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Putting a collar on a dog and leading him shouldn't make him whine and yelp. He's doing so because he knows he's disobeying me and doing wrong. He's smarter than that. You're acting like he's never known how to listen before. What he's doing now is wondering whether he has to listen anymore. Dogs will challenge their alpha, and when I put the collar on him, he's whining and yelping because he knows he's being punished, not because I'm hurting him.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

kaiserdog said:


> I praise him continuously when he does good. I purchase steak bones, and feed him steak on Friday nights. I let the dog sleep on his own couch. I feed him gourmet dishes every night. I pamper him. And when he doesn't obey my command, it's HIM challenging me, not me all of a sudden doing something wrong. What I need to know is how to correct his territorial behavior around certain parts of the property, and remind him that I'm alpha, and he's a lowly second member of the pack. Maybe instead of treating him like a king, I should start treating him like a dog, that might work.


it's not him challenging you, if he were challenging you it would be with everything not jut coming to you when called and not going in to his pen.

you probably should be treating him like a dog because that's what he is a dog. I'd do NILIF with him heavily, and change your method of making him come, when he comes praise with either petting or treats, and lose the choke chain and leash method when he doesn't come to you.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

The reason I'm using the choke chain is because if I don't, he'll choke himself on a regular chain. When I go get him in his pen, he's NOT MOVING. He lies down, and will not move. I put the choker on him if anything, to encourage him that he has to come, not to "hurt" him, not for any other reason. If I had a regular chain or collar, I'd probably choke him inadvertently. He knows how to come, he's been doing it for a year. He knows how to listen. What he's doing now is blatantly refusing my command, and it requires more discipline than pulling out milk bones. If anything, pulling out milk bones just teaches him to hold me hostage until his demands are met. 

What really surprises me about responses I get to my query, is that everyone seems to assume the dog is master of the universe, and I'm the guilty party. Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe the dog is just being a "bad boy" and needs to be disciplined? Honestly, we love our dogs, but there are times when they are wrong, and we're right, you know. By the way, the choke chain was recommended to me by a top trainer when I got him, the chain has big spikes in it. Why? Because the dog is a 100lbs stubborn boy at times, who needs firm discipline. He's on the couch (his couch, $400 just for him), and if I called him right now to me, he'd come, reluctantly. Why? Because he's TIRED, and would prefer to sleep. He don't wanna come! Imagine that! For me to jump up and down with treats encouraging him to come over would be telling him he's #1, and I'm open to negotiations. If I ask him to come right now, he HAS to come. Yes, he'll get a pat on the head when he gets over, but I'm much more certain he'd prefer sleep right now. But that doesn't mean he gets to. If we model raising children the way some of us want to raise dogs, it's no wonder our kids (I have none) completely disrespect us. Yes, positive reinforcement, but you have to also know when to apply punishment, and a command of "come" means "come." When he's sitting on the railroad track one day, enjoying the sunshine, and I tell him to "come" because a train is coming, he has to. These dogs are smart, like you've all said, and they are smart enough to challenge their masters. Our response shouldn't be pleading to their demands, it should be reinforcing our demands. We do pay the bills, do we not?


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## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

If treats and praise are not enough, I would look for a training specialist in your area that knows how to train your dog with an e collar. The e collar, when used appropriately, can help encourage a good recall. It's a foundation piece and should not be permanent in your training and when giving commands.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

kaiserdog said:


> The reason I'm using the choke chain is because if I don't, he'll choke himself on a regular chain. When I go get him in his pen, he's NOT MOVING. He lies down, and will not move. I put the choker on him if anything, to encourage him that he has to come, not to "hurt" him, not for any other reason. If I had a regular chain or collar, I'd probably choke him inadvertently. He knows how to come, he's been doing it for a year. He knows how to listen. What he's doing now is blatantly refusing my command, and it requires more discipline than pulling out milk bones. If anything, pulling out milk bones just teaches him to hold me hostage until his demands are met.
> 
> What really surprises me about responses I get to my query, is that everyone seems to assume the dog is master of the universe, and I'm the guilty party. Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe the dog is just being a "bad boy" and needs to be disciplined? Honestly, we love our dogs, but there are times when they are wrong, and we're right, you know. By the way, the choke chain was recommended to me by a top trainer when I got him, the chain has big spikes in it. Why? Because the dog is a 100lbs stubborn boy at times, who needs firm discipline. He's on the couch (his couch, $400 just for him), and if I called him right now to me, he'd come, reluctantly. Why? Because he's TIRED, and would prefer to sleep. He don't wanna come! Imagine that! For me to jump up and down with treats encouraging him to come over would be telling him he's #1, and I'm open to negotiations. If I ask him to come right now, he HAS to come. Yes, he'll get a pat on the head when he gets over, but I'm much more certain he'd prefer sleep right now. But that doesn't mean he gets to. If we model raising children the way some of us want to raise dogs, it's no wonder our kids (I have none) completely disrespect us. Yes, positive reinforcement, but you have to also know when to apply punishment, and a command of "come" means "come." When he's sitting on the railroad track one day, enjoying the sunshine, and I tell him to "come" because a train is coming, he has to. These dogs are smart, like you've all said, and they are smart enough to challenge their masters. Our response shouldn't be pleading to their demands, it should be reinforcing our demands. We do pay the bills, do we not?


I understand that these dogs are smart enough to challenge their masters, because mine does that everyday, which is why I do NILIF with him and guess what? it works, he works for everything and when he does something, like coming when called, he gets praised no matter how mad I am him for NOT coming when he DOES come he gets praise, *NOT TREATS*. most of the members here DON'T put their dogs on pedestals. I know I don't. they're dogs and get treated as such, sure he sleeps on my bed at night and gets feed the best food out there (except RAW because I can't afford it nor do I have the space for it, but if I did he'd be fed RAW) but in the end he's a dog not a human. if he's not coming to you the problem is more than likely YOU not the dog. Put it this way, lets say you were the dog and your dog is you, If your dog called you to come and you didn't he immediately put on a choke chain and a leash you'd you want to come anymore? more than likely not because you unintentionally hurt the dog out of frustration and anger. if your dog called you and praised you with PETTING every time, regardless if he was upset with you for not coming, you've probably more than likely come because you were being praised.

*SIDE NOTE* I'm not trying to be mean or to criticize you, you asked for help and we're helping you or trying to at least. The way you worded your post made us believe that you were punishing your dog for coming, even though he didn't want to come, he still came right and where there for getting punished for NOT coming earlier. make sense?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I guess I'd ask you why you are even posting this when your dismissing and don't agree with what people are telling you?

When a dog DOES NOT COME, the majority of the time means, he has NO GOOD REASON to come to you. YOU are not as interesting or meaningful as what he is doing.

He isn't laying there, thinking" oh I'm going to challenge him today and not move"..they don't "think" like that. 

I can honestly say, in all the years I've had gsd's I have never had a problem with any of them coming to me when asked of them. Wildlife, other people, other dogs, doesn't matter, I've been blessed to have /had gsd's that WANT to 'come' when I ask them to. 

I certainly understand why you want him to "come" when you say so, for safety and other reasons, but forcing him to do it isn't helping your relationship.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Your method, for whatever reason, isn't working. Recall must be 100% NOT 99%. That 1% could be the time your dog runs out in front of a car.

I'd start trying to fix the problem by buying Control Unleased and Really Reliable Recall and going back to square one with recall training.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Steph, the fact that you say your dog challenges you EVERYDAY makes me wonder. If he does, he/she needs discipline. The last time my dog challenged me was about 6 months ago, which is why when he does challenge me, I'm on it like a bug on a windshield. The problem isn't me, it's HIM. Can we stop being so liberal and for once call a spade a spade? The dog is misbehaving. Not because of me. Because of him. He's saying "to **** with you, I don't wanna come" even though you fed me steak last night, and I'm living a dream life on 5 acres. Yes, that infuriates me. Yes that makes me feel like I have a spoiled child, and yes there's going to be **** to pay. A dog should NOT challenge us everyday, a dog should be obedient, respectful, and listen on a dime. My dog does that USUALLY, except for the past two weekends, when he's looked at me in the face of my command, and IGNORED it. Far from wondering why I'm such a bad trainer ALL OF A SUDDEN, I'm going to place the blame where it belongs, on HIM. His fault, not mine. And if he thinks it's okay to get away with this, he's sorely mistaken, and if he wants to challenge me, maybe the pound would be a better place for him. No, I'd never do that, but that's what our attitude as dog trainers MUST be. We have to impose the rules, we have to impose the discipline. If the dog were in his wild life pack, I don't think disobedience would be rewarded with cookies and cream. I think it would be rewarded by a fight. If you knew how well-behaved my dog USUALLY is, you wouldn't put ME on trial, you'd put the dog on trial, and offer me some advice on how to deal with HIM. Yes, I appreciate the advice, etc., but I have the feeling your dog probably runs your household if he/she's challenging you everyday. When my dog steps out of line, there's going to be a consequence. Am I a big a-hole? Nope. I'm a big softy. But I expect obedience in return for everything this dog gets (dream life here on the ranch). How about giving ME a bit of credit, instead of assuming the dog is Mr. Innocent and living with a person who doesn't know what he's doing? It's typical of whenever someone asks a tough question, people automatically assume the dog owner is an idiot, and the dog is like a helpless baby. Nope, the dog's smart, the dog's trying to see if he can have HIS say in HIS pen, the dog is pushing the limits. What I need is advice on how to deal with a STUBBORN dog, not advice on how to be his servant. Honestly, it's dry, dry, dry kibble tonight. No mix, no meat, plain, boring, dry kibble.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Not dismissing anything, just debating, just arguing, just discussing. That's all.


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## Ponypip123 (Apr 2, 2010)

:crazy:Sorry to butt in, but the bottom line is, he doesn't have to come. Once he's out of your reach, he can do whatever he wants! The people here are advising you to reward him with treats, praise, or happiness whenever he comes. If he gets anger or frustration from you, why would he come to that? Even if he is testing you, as you think, you will have to keep the recall as something that is worth his while.....(JMO)


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Are you saying that if my dog happens to run into a mound of hamburger meat, along with 3 girlfriends of his, that my call to him must be more "interesting" than that? That's hard to believe. I would think he needs to learn to come even when he doesn't WANT to come, or isn't interested in coming all the time. This explains why usually, 99% of the time, he comes. But 1% he doesn't want to. Not my fault, it's his, he's being a stubborn dog. Since when should we have to put on a dog and pony show for our spoiled dogs to come to us? Honestly. I'm able to detect a stubborn dog, and I need advice on how to remind him that come means come, no matter what. I shouldn't have to be "interesting" every single time. He's on the couch right now, sleeping. I'm going to tell him to come. He's not going to want to (I'm not as interesting as his sleep), but he will anyway. Why? Because he knows he HAS to, otherwise there will be a consequence. That's just life. Am I wrong?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well lets discuss this How do you KNOW it's his fault? I mean really how do you know? Do you have ESP? Does he tell you "nope I'm gonna be a butthead today and I'm not coming when you want me to?" 

Seriously,,how do you "know" that it's the dogs fault and NOT yours? 

I am a firm believer in whatever you put into a dog you'll get out of a dog. And I am also a firm believer in, if you have a really good bond with your dog, a good relationship, and mutual respect..COME is the easiest command in the book.

I also am a firm believer in corrections/discipline, however, when you have the "above",,everything else falls into place and corrections are rarely needed. 

I'd be interested in what a behaviorist who came out and evaluated your situation would have to say about it.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

kaiserdog said:


> Steph, the fact that you say your dog challenges you EVERYDAY makes me wonder. If he does, he/she needs discipline. The last time my dog challenged me was about 6 months ago, which is why when he does challenge me, I'm on it like a bug on a windshield. The problem isn't me, it's HIM. Can we stop being so liberal and for once call a spade a spade? The dog is misbehaving. Not because of me. Because of him. He's saying "to **** with you, I don't wanna come" even though you fed me steak last night, and I'm living a dream life on 5 acres. Yes, that infuriates me. Yes that makes me feel like I have a spoiled child, and yes there's going to be **** to pay. A dog should NOT challenge us everyday, a dog should be obedient, respectful, and listen on a dime. My dog does that USUALLY, except for the past two weekends, when he's looked at me in the face of my command, and IGNORED it. Far from wondering why I'm such a bad trainer ALL OF A SUDDEN, I'm going to place the blame where it belongs, on HIM. His fault, not mine. And if he thinks it's okay to get away with this, he's sorely mistaken, and if he wants to challenge me, maybe the pound would be a better place for him. No, I'd never do that, but that's what our attitude as dog trainers MUST be. We have to impose the rules, we have to impose the discipline. If the dog were in his wild life pack, I don't think disobedience would be rewarded with cookies and cream. I think it would be rewarded by a fight. If you knew how well-behaved my dog USUALLY is, you wouldn't put ME on trial, you'd put the dog on trial, and offer me some advice on how to deal with HIM. Yes, I appreciate the advice, etc., but I have the feeling your dog probably runs your household if he/she's challenging you everyday. When my dog steps out of line, there's going to be a consequence. Am I a big a-hole? Nope. I'm a big softy. But I expect obedience in return for everything this dog gets (dream life here on the ranch). How about giving ME a bit of credit, instead of assuming the dog is Mr. Innocent and living with a person who doesn't know what he's doing? It's typical of whenever someone asks a tough question, people automatically assume the dog owner is an idiot, and the dog is like a helpless baby. Nope, the dog's smart, the dog's trying to see if he can have HIS say in HIS pen, the dog is pushing the limits. What I need is advice on how to deal with a STUBBORN dog, not advice on how to be his servant. Honestly, it's dry, dry, dry kibble tonight. No mix, no meat, plain, boring, dry kibble.


 My dog doesn't run my household, because he's not allowed too which is where the NILIF comes in, he doesn't listen he gets discipline, not with a choke chain and leash either, but usually redirected or I make him do what ever it was that I told him like a sit and when he does sit (either I make him sit or he does it) I praise him. Eventually he learned that when he sits he gets a "good boy" and a pat on the head if that.

You asked for help we gave you advise take it or leave it. if you think you're doing the "right" thing then why ask for help in the first place?

*side note* I said everyday to make a point, does he "challenge" me everyday no he stopped doing that a year ago.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no one has to jump thru hoops, throw them a tbone, or have a female in heat waiting for a dog to come to you. It's about your relationship with this dog. He sounds like an unhappy dog . 

If you know all the answers, since it sounds like you do, you shouldn't even have to ask us, you've got it all figured out for yourself.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

I only get angry with him when he doesn't come. He's very submissive to me, he knows I'm boss, so this is why it's surprising that he's pushing the limits. Yes, he does have to come, I shouldn't have to offer flowers each time. He needs to come both because he wants to, and also because he has to know that if he doesn't, there will be a consequence. My goodness, since when is putting a choker and collar on a dog to enforce a command such a horrible thing? Soft soft soft we've become. My dog has a golden life, the least he can do is come on command. It's not always going to be worth his while either.


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## Ponypip123 (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm just sayin'.....he doesn't have to, and if he is punished after coming, the 1% of not coming to you will probably grow to a larger proportion.... I think you're giving him a little too much credit for human thinking patterns.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Can I not discuss the advice with you? Why do you say "take it or leave it"? I'm just wanting to discuss and debate. I don't know why you're being so offended all of a sudden. If you can't handle healthy debate, then say so.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

So sweet of you Diane, to just assume he's unhappy because of this. His owner must be a real jerk, eh? He's actually very happy, so much so that he's now onto new things, such as challenging his alpha on ownership of the property.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Kaiserdog- now who's getting defensive?


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Steph, he's the kind of dog I simply have to look at and he knows some of my commands. The "bond" is not the issue.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Steph, are you re-engaging in debate, or are you still of the attitude, "take or leave our advice, we don't want to debate"?


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Diane, I'm just questioning your advice, I don't have it "all figured out." But for you to conclude that the dog must be unhappy based on such limited information is quite naive and does nothing more than project your own insecurities on my situation. Grow up.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

kaiserdog said:


> since when is putting a choker and collar on a dog to enforce a command such a horrible thing? Soft soft soft we've become.


It isn't. Most of the people who have responded to you are firm believers in corrections when a dog ignores a command that they know.

However, correcting a dog for not coming is not going to make them want to come to you more. I will say again, corrections are needed and good when used appropriately. Your dog should not be carrying on the way you say if you are using a fair and appropriate correction.

Also, if you have to go get the collar and leash then go get the dog then it has been far too long since you issued the command to correct the dog. He doesn't know why he is being corrected at that point. He only knows that you are suddenly pissed and correcting him. No wonder he won't come.



kaiserdog said:


> By the way, the choke chain was recommended to me by a top trainer when I got him, the chain has big spikes in it.


FYI. It sounds like the collar you are using is a prong collar, not a choke chain.

And this will be my last post on this thread because I pretty much disagree with your general theory on dogs. Most dogs are not out to challenge their owners regardless of how much they weigh. When dogs are shown fair and consistent leadership, they don't challenge their owners because their needs are being met. They come when called not because they fear not complying with commands but because being with and pleasing (listening to) their owner is fun and fulfilling.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

"come is the easiest command in the book" Agreed. Which is why he's been perfect for almost a year up until last weekend. Yes I have a great bond with him. But for two weekends, he's decided he won't come. I doubt it has anything to do with my bond with him, it has everything to do with him challenging my alpha position. My question is, how do I reassert my alpha position in the areas of the yard where he thinks he's #1?


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

I didn't know you knew me enough to know my "theory on dogs." Good grief. Based on a few e-mails, you're ready to conclude my theory on dogs. Maybe you're right, this conversation is going nowhere. Thank you anyway.


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## Ponypip123 (Apr 2, 2010)

:wild:This is me giving up


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

kaiserdog said:


> "come is the easiest command in the book" Agreed. Which is why he's been perfect for almost a year up until last weekend. Yes I have a great bond with him. But for two weekends, he's decided he won't come. I doubt it has anything to do with my bond with him, it has everything to do with him challenging my alpha position. My question is, how do I reassert my alpha position in the areas of the yard where he thinks he's #1?


I already said this twice before and i'm not going to say it again. NILIF will help you re-assert your position 
NILIF training - Training & Behavior


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

The collar and leash are 2 seconds from my "come" command. Another false assumption on your part, again, ready to make me, the owner, the one who doesn't know what he's doing, and the dog, the innocent non-guilty party who is not being led appropriately.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

This is me thanking you (for giving up).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you may read to much into the 'alpha smalpha' thing..Why do I think he's unhappy? Because if he was happy he'd come to you , plain and simple.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. If he's only been doing this for a couple of weeks,,did you ever consider he may be ill ? 

And this will be my last post as well, your training theory is archaic and it's obvious you don't know dog behavior.

Good luck to you both.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Thank you Steph, I do appreciate your help. I'll give it a try.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

kaiserdog said:


> 99% of the time he comes to me because he wants to see me. 1% of the time I need him to come when I need him to, and when he may not want to. That's up to him to handle, not me to tempt him with treats and sunshine. What he's doing lately is testing the waters to see if he actually HAD to do what I tell him to do. He's listened all along, and if I tell him to go to his pen, I can't attach a bouquet of flowers with that each time. He has to listen even when he doesn't want to. And when he just looks at me without any reaction to a clear command, I'm not about to pull out a treat to appease him.


*sigh* Obviously you are not grasping what people are trying to tell you. What you're currently doing is not working, why are you so resistant to suggestions? You did come here asking for help, yes?


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Funny, just last night he was chasing tennis balls like there was no tomorrow, and really happy. I wonder if today he was just a bit tired, and figured he's try ignoring my command. Ya think? And all this in spite of our tight bond. Imagine that! My "archaic" training, you're too funny. I bet your dogs run your house.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

EchoGSD said:


> What you are doing right now is convincing him that coming to you means: 1. You will be angry with him when he gets there. 2. You will attach a leash and a choke collar and make him whine and yelp. 3. You will ultimately lock him away from you in solitude, when what he wants more than anything else is spend happy time with you.
> You are not encouraging your dog, you are DISCOURAGING him.


Exactly - why on earth would be be inclined to come to you when he knows this might be what happens?!?!


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Exactly - why on earth would be be inclined to come to you when he knows this might be what happens?!?!


that's what I was trying to say.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Are you practicing NILIF with him? Nothing in Life is Free


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

kaiserdog said:


> What really surprises me about responses I get to my query, is that everyone seems to assume the dog is master of the universe, and I'm the guilty party.


Nope, wrong. Not a single person assumes that, and again - if that's what you think, you're completely misunderstanding what people are trying to tell you.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Okay, enough with the "positive only" reinforcement. That won't compete with a day he's on the road happy as can be, and I need to call him before he gets hit by a car. He's been coming 99% of the time, and in the past two weeks he's decided not to, so it's not my training method. He's experimenting with what consequences will be associated with not coming. "What if I don't come"?


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Wow Debbie, such insight! You must be an expert!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

kaiserdog said:


> Wow Debbie, such insight! You must be an expert!


No, I just play one on TV! oke:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You need to get over the "challenging my alpha position" and do some research on the advances made in dog training in the last 10 years. The very person who came up with the "alpha" theory now says he was WRONG. Seriously, you don't even know what equipment you are using. Big difference between a choke and a prong collar.

It doesn't sound like your dog has any reason to come to you. These aren't robots. They are living, thinking being.

This is not about him thinking he's #1. This is about him not wanting to come to you because you get furious with him over the least little thing and then get on him "like a bug on a windshield" from your own description. He is not doing this to get one up on you. Think about your own actions towards him and what will motivate him to WANT to be with you.

It sounds to me like he was punished for not going into his kennel so he views his kennel as punishment thus not wanting to go in. Then you reaffirm that by continuing to punish him. Then he doesn't want to come to you because you are angry. Is he laying there with his ears back? Is he giving calming signals? Do you even know what calming signals are or are you to caught up in the "he's submissive and I'm the big, bad wolf" theory?

It's your choice. Continue to be frustrated and pissed off at your dog or use your head to figure out why your dog wouldn't want to come to you. Stop trying to assert human emotions onto your dog and you'll get along much better.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

kaiserdog said:


> Okay, enough with the "positive only" reinforcement. That won't compete with a day he's on the road happy as can be, and I need to call him before he gets hit by a car. He's been coming 99% of the time, and in the past two weeks he's decided not to, so it's not my training method. He's experimenting with what consequences will be associated with not coming. "What if I don't come"?


First of all, if he doesn't have good recall, why is he out in the road without a line on him? And does the tone of voice you use show your anger, or frustration? 
Have you ever used a clicker to work with him? Clickers show no emotion.
I agree with everyone else, your dog isn't being defiant, but he sure doesn't want to work WITH or FOR you. So maybe he is trying to steer clear of the consequences when he does have to come to you.
Big difference when a dog is engaged and biddable vs compliant because they know the consequences if they aren't.


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## kaiserdog (Jan 25, 2011)

Jax, for the past year, he's been 100% responsive. For the past 2 weeks, he's not been listening. If you would have seen him 3 weeks ago, you'd have thought he'd god's dog regarding his behavior, and his closeness to me. The dog is a great dog, I'm just questioning why he's choosing not to listen this past while. Why do you guys always assume the questioner is clueless? My dog is probably better trained than most of yours. I'm just wondering why he's not listening as of late. You guys need to take yourselves off YOUR high horses, and stop dishing out universal advice on everything I'm doing wrong with my dog, because the dog, other than the past 2 weeks, has displayed perfection in obedience.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I take offense to your post above, you ask for advice and then spout that your dog is trained better than the dogs here, really? You don't think any of the posts above carry any suggestions that are worthy? 
Is there a bitch in heat nearby that has his brain scattered?


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## KayElle (Mar 1, 2010)

Kaiserdog--You might want to consider if anything happened the first time your dog did not come to you. Dogs are VERY detail-oriented! For example, if you teach and perfect a command in the same room in your house and then try the command in another room, or outside (even without distractions) the dog may be confused. So my point is, if your dog has always been reliable until 2 weeks ago, SOMETHING DIFFERENT HAPPENED that made him adverse to coming to you in THAT particular place AND at that time of the day. Also, although I appreciate that you give your dog steak and a great life, don't assume HE knows that!! He doesn't recall what you fed him last night!!! I doubt he cares. What IS clear is that by your own posts, you admit you get angry with him when he doesn't listen and you seem very proud of the fact that your dog is very submissive. That is sad ... your dog should look to you for LEADERSHIP and as the one thing in his life he WANTS to be around all the time because he enjoys it not because he is fearful of the consequences of not behaving. Oh yes, if you are wondering about how well trained my dogs are? I live in a subdivision loaded with dogs, kids, and on a river with all kinds of really interesting wildlife to chase. My dogs stay ON my property regardless of distractions and I don't have a real or invisible fence. Yes, they always come, regardless of the circumstances or where we are. I STRONGLY recommend you look at positive training for the sake of your dog!!! PLEASE LISTEN to the advice posted by others on this forum!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

kaiserdog said:


> The dog is a great dog, I'm just questioning why he's choosing not to listen this past while.


Well, based on the exchange so far, my guess is that it might be because he is a submissive dog, and you are a _tad_ overbearing, so he is shutting down. 

He is in avoidance. For whatever reason that we don't know, because it does sound like you have a great relationship with him, and he does respect you, he is stressed over the pen, and stressed over coming to you, is confused as to what is the right thing to do, and the only way to make the stress go away is to tune you out, and not do anything at all, because he is afraid of your reaction. 

He picks up on your anger, your body language, your frustration - it confuses him (for whatever reason, something happened that was different and it confused him), and being a submissive dog who wants to please, now feels that whatever course of action he takes, you WON'T be pleased, so the safest thing to do is to shut you out.

Dogs that are completely happy, obedient and responsive don't just wake up one morning and decide to test their limits. THERE IS SOME OTHER REASON HE IS ACTING THIS WAY - AND IT HAS TO DO WITH HIM BEING CONFUSED AND WORRIED.

So what you need to do is build up the trust and bond and let him know that you are pleased with him - ESPECIALLY when you call him. And no, I'm not all sunshine and honey positive training only person, my dogs have prongs, and my expectations are high, but when things start to fall apart, the first we should do is take a step back and and try and see what WE are doing to bring on the unexpected reaction from our dogs. 

Until you can figure out what is going on (and obviously, we can't, because according to you, we have ALL misunderstood what you are trying to communicate . . . hmmm, maybe like your dog?), use a leash so you don't have to worry about that 1% chance of him being hit by a car, and if you are 100% sure that he will be fine when out on the road due to the leash, then your attitude and energy will change, and that will be a start to build the trust back again. 

Honestly, dogs are not as complicated as you make it out to be. They are transparent and honest, and don't play mind games. From the behaviours you describe, what I see is that 

A) your dog loves and worships you and wants to please you over everthing else.

B) somewhere along the line, just recently, something has changed and what he thought was pleasing to you turned out to be the wrong thing, and the consequences where so bad that he is giving up on trying to figure out what you want in case he makes the wrong choice again and he get punished and you get upset. 

You can come back and give me example after example of what a good dog he is, how well he responds to you, etc, which would only confirm item A), which would mean that his defiance is not what you think (nice, submissive dogs don't change overnight like this), 

and so if not a sudden and dramatic change in temperament, then a change in his environment and your behaviour that he cannot cope with. 


And as a Moderator note: be aware that many of your posts are on the verge of personal attacks, so please review the board rules about being courteous and respectful. Thank you. 

Edit: Ha! KayElle posted while I was typing - glad to see the common threads in all the answers.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

kaiserdog said:


> A dog should NOT challenge us everyday, a dog should be obedient, respectful, and listen on a dime.


If you expect that type of behavior 100% of the time you need to get this type of dog:

http://www.resonancepub.com/images/Robot_Dog.gif/[img]

Dogs are living, breathing, thinking and FEELING creatures. We do not and never will TRULY understand what motivates a dog or makes them do what they do.

The best we can do is hope for the desired behavior most of the time.


[QUOTE="kaiserdog, post: 2075257, member: 50721"]Not dismissing anything, just debating, just arguing, just discussing. That's all.[/quote]

You are not debating. You are dismissing everything anyone is saying.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

kaiserdog said:


> He actually turns around, and goes to lay down.


This is a calming signal, not defiance.


ETA: I hadn't read all the posts. Listen to Castlemaid. She caught it, too.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Excellent post Castlemaid. 

Kaiserdog, perhaps if you just told us what you want us to say, we could end this thread right now.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Good_Karma said:


> Kaiserdog, perhaps if you just told us what you want us to say, we could end this thread right now.


Best response so far! :thumbup:


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

i would like to say sorry  in my trying to help I guess I got a little too defensive so I'm sorry


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

Kaiserdog, I can understand your frustrations. I had an english mastiff, a notorious breed for being stubborn, who would do the same thing, just plop down and wouldn't budge. I woulld sit there blue in the face giving her the "come" command. And there was no way that I could have moved a 206 pound dog. So, I mixed things up a bit. Because of my mastiff, I now use two "come" commands. 1 is the verbal "come" and the other when I really needed her attention and to come quickly and "now" is that I had a certain whistle. Others may not agree, but I have used that on every other dog I had. And it has worked with every one. Just a thought. I'm not a trainer. ****, my dog walks around with a stuffed Zebra in his mouth most of the time.lol Good Luck


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I think that some of this frustration and cross talk comes from some inflexibility in trainining theories. I've posted about my frustration with PR only, and the same criticism applies to strict alpha models of training. As the saying goes, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." If you ascribe strictly to alpha dog theories than disobedience is a direct challenge to your leadership. Kaiserdog seems to be very successful and invested in that framework so it's difficult to go out of that model.

I agree with Castlemaid's analysis. I like what Bunchoberrys had to say about the two commands. I inadvertently trained that when I walked my dogs on a country road. When I heard a car I would call, "TO ME" because there was an actual urgency to their recall. My relief and happiness when they would come out of the foliage must have been rewarding because "To Me" was 100% and "Come Here" could get some sass.
I really think that the best training happens when it's not based on an inflexible ideology but is dependent on the interplay of dog and owner's personalities.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

From what I have read, he refused your command the first time so you added a negative reinforcement (choker/prong correction until he "whined"). What you did in that instance is solidify his thought process of ignoring/avoiding you. You reinforced that come means pain. Then you continued to reinforce that time after time.

Your only option is to start at bare bones and work the recall from the beginning. On leash, call and draw in. Reward. You may not even get that far so you may need to start catching the behavior, such as he comes up to you and reward. Next add the word come when this happens and reward. Then go to the leash. Then to a long line and then off leash. 

You need to undue what you did and rebuild through confidence and positive interactions. No correction quick fix here. 

And one more tip....dogs do not think of ways to be "defiant". They do not scheme or plot or say to themselves one day "I think I will annoy my people today!" And lucky for you dogs are very forgiving, they do not hold grudges.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> And lucky for you dogs are very forgiving, they do not hold grudges.


That only goes for the relationship they have with their people. Female dogs(I am not using the word bitch because I got chewed out for this before) tend to never forgive or forget when it comes to other females...


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

Someone said it best in an earlier post. Why did you come on here and ask for advise, if you are just going to shoot down everything you are being advised on. Sounds to me like you aleady have the best dog around, and you know it all. So, why even ask the for advise from people?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

He wants everyone to say he's been doing everything right all along and that his dog is defying him. He doesn't want to admit that the way his dog is acting is HIS fault. (And it is, sorry to say). 

Read up on positive reinforcement training. I know you said you're for it or whatever, but you have been doing negative reinforcement. 

If when you call your dog back, the fun ends, then you're conditioning your dog to dislike coming back to you. Of course he'd rather be out having fun than coming back to you.
My personal opinion is start over your recall training. Start at step one. Call him to you, when he gets there, make him feel like the greatest dog in the world and give him a treat. Then let him go have fun again. Repeat so he doesn't associate coming back with fun ending every single time he comes back to you. Eventually the fun will end, but not every time he comes. 

Spend more time with him. Play fetch with him, tug, etc. 

If he doesn't want to go in his kennel, do what others have already suggested. Feed him in it, play with him in it, praise him when he's in it....

DON'T train him when you're mad. That's the worst mistake you can make. As soon as you start to get frustrated, STOP TRAINING.


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