# Protection and ....



## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

Can a GSD do protection plus something else. Because of a very bad experience with our family and an ever present threat of harm to my kids I am very much in need of a protection dog. But that is not all I want him to do. I don't want to over burden him but I'm just not sure he will be content with just one job. He is a very high drive dog and I don't want him to be bored. 

I have thought about doing search and rescue with him, but I'm not sure the 2 skills would go together. I have no idea what he can do that would mesh well with protection training. I don't really need him to have another job per say, just something to help keep him from getting board. Any ideas?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd do nosework/tracking or scent detection, many SAR groups won't accept dogs that are protection trained.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

You need a professional trainer to train you and the dog for this type of work.

As many GSD's as I've trained, I would never consider myself qualified to teach this sort of task.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> You need a professional trainer to train you and the dog for this type of work.
> 
> As many GSD's as I've trained, I would never consider myself qualified to teach this sort of task.


I am definitely going to have a pro train him for protection. I'm just wanting to find something else he can do along with the protection work so that after he is finished with protection training he won't get bored. 


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Then how about just being his friend and do things with him?

He doesn't have to be on the clock for his entire life. Walk him, teach him to fetch, teach him things you want him to do while you are together like fetching the morning paper, answering the door, etc.

It sucks retiring knowing no one needs you for anything.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Training a dog in protection and then maintaining the protection training can be enough to keep the dog from getting bored. It's not a send the dog away for three weeks get him back and he's all done. It takes some time then needs to be maintained to keep the dog sharp. Of course you can do other things but you don't have to do it to keep the dog from getting bored. Also as mentioned, a lot of SAR teams won't allow bite work. I have been turned down by two SAR teams due to bite work.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Very few SAR teams will even waste their time responding to someone who wants to do SAR so their dog won't be bored.SAR is not about finding something to do for the dog and you and he are going to be away from your kids for many many many hours often in the middle of the night (THE best time for hunting for missing people*) if he were working.....It is an extreme commitment on your part. Very hard on any family because, I swear, calls often come at the MOST inopportune time for you and your family. Nosework would be fun and something the whole family can participate in and would be fun but I am not sure if the protection training will get him un-invited to any classes . Personally, I would not train a dog to do real protection work other than dogsport ... it presents a serious liability. You may also find yourself out of a homeowners insurance policy. A lot of us have high drive working dogs and they don't need a job-the need your time and engagement and excercise and you can do that without any kind of specialty discipline. All I have even wanted from a GSD in terms of protection was a good alarm bark. If you really need genuine protection for the kids I would be coming up with another plan. The real bad guys have guns and knives and may not be put off by a trained dog....unlike the garden variety thief.If you do, do protection training he is not ever "finished" with it. There is a lot of work to maintain a protection dog. *thinking wilderness SAR looking for folks lost in the woods, autism kids, nursing home walkaways. Oklahoma seems to have more than its share of disasters so you might be gone for lengthy deployments were you to do that kind of stuff.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am going to apologize about the lack of paragraph breaks. I put them in and for some reason I can't edit them back in. Never had that happen before! I know my paragraph all runs together.

Edit attempt just to see if I can edit THIS one.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

SAR is not something you dabble in on the side, it's really a full time commitment and many teams won't even look at your dog until YOU have passed a certain level of training.

I would think anything *but* SAR would be OK for your dog: Schutzhund, agility, nosework.... My dogs cross-train in several different venues. They are not "personal protection dogs" but I do Schutzhund (and SDA when I can).


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Why not prepare YOURSELF to handle a threat. Doggiedad had a good quote in another thread. "If I need protection from something, than my dog probably needs protection from it too." Or something along those lines. 

Protection training is training the dog to deal with the PRESSURE put on it from a threat....to do that the dog is taught under pressure and threat...obviously this is a dumbed down extremely-over-simplified, description, and it's a slow, building-up process, with rewards and praise along with everything else(all about balance). The dog will be taught to latch on in life-death situations, being ready to self-sacrifice, for you and your family. This is intense training, that will take your absolute involvement. I only give this serious description because of how flippantly you mentioned SAR. SAR is an intense commitment....not something, "to keep a dog from getting bored." 

To me my dogs are an auditory alert, and visual threat. That's enough.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

When I got Ammo I had originally intended to train him for SAR. That is the reason I mentioned it. Since then we have had a very real reason for added protection. In order to prepare for this threat I have bought weapons, and am very adapt in how to use them. I am also trained in self defense and my family is going to be moving almost 1,000 miles away from our current how in an attempt to get away from the threat. 

I really don't want to go into details as to what the threat is, but I will say part of it is against my 7 year old daughter. I love Ammo and I know he loves my family. I would be devastated if anything happen to him, but it would be far worse if one of my children were injured, or killed. 

I would never knowingly put Ammo in a position that would cost him his life, but at the same time I can not carry a gun everywhere I go, like walking my kids home from school. This is not a decision made lightly. 


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OUbrat79 said:


> When I got Ammo I had originally intended to train him for SAR. That is the reason I mentioned it. Since then we have had a very real reason for added protection. In order to prepare for this threat I have bought weapons, and am very adapt in how to use them. I am also trained in self defense and my family is going to be moving almost 1,000 miles away from our current how in an attempt to get away from the threat.
> 
> I really don't want to go into details as to what the threat is, but I will say part of it is against my 7 year old daughter. I love Ammo and I know he loves my family. I would be devastated if anything happen to him, but it would be far worse if one of my children were injured, or killed.
> 
> ...


I understand. So glad to hear you have taken the precautions that you have. And of course your children/child comes above anything else (mama bear here too). I know an amazing protection trainer (well he trains everything) in the NW, PM me if you are interested. I really hope everything turns out well for you.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I dont think you guys get it, are you talking about turning just any dog into a serious pp dog? It doesnt work like that. The dog has to be the type to start with. Being high drive means nothing. Very few dogs make the cut to be true PP dogs. GOod chances are your dog is not the dog for the job.

If you wanted a protection dog you usually select for this before by choosing the right breeder.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Unless you are doing the sport. 
RH offers the option of doing it just as a sport, or to do the real deal and the sport portion is for those people who just want to do something fun with their dog.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

pets4life said:


> I dont think you guys get it, are you talking about turning just any dog into a serious pp dog? It doesnt work like that. The dog has to be the type to start with. Being high drive means nothing. Very few dogs make the cut to be true PP dogs. GOod chances are your dog is not the dog for the job.
> 
> If you wanted a protection dog you usually select for this before by choosing the right breeder.


I'm not talking about turning "just any" dog into a pp dog. This dog has the bloodline for pp. If it turns out he is not right for the work then we won't train him for it. 


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

hopefully you have reported all of your "threats" to the proper authorities and maybe a restraining order is what you need. 
If you are needing to arm yourself etc that's a serious situation that even a GSD shouldn't be required to handle.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

OUbrat79,
Can you post this dog's pedigree? What dog's in your dog's pedigree suggest to you that your dog might have the genetics to be a personal protection dog?


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> hopefully you have reported all of your "threats" to the proper authorities and maybe a restraining order is what you need.
> If you are needing to arm yourself etc that's a serious situation that even a GSD shouldn't be required to handle.


The threat has been reported and a protective order is in place, although the individual has proven a protective order has no effect on him. Also he will be going to jail in July for 2 years, we are moving while he is in jail so hopefully it will be harder to find us. 

I have worked very hard to protected my entire family, including our GSD. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There's no use discussing this on the forum...just go and try it. The truth is...most SAR teams won't allow a dog that has been trained in bite work. It's a huge liability and there have been cases where a dog found a person, and for some reason decided to bite the person, that person than sued the handler/team/municipality that hired the team.

I don't know any personal protection dogs as there is a ton of liability with it...way more than with a sport dog even. You can pretty much guarantee that if your dog bites someone that wasn't intending any harm to you or your family, you're in for a huge legal battle and will most likely lose your dog.

You really should discuss this with someone that trains and understands PPDs. They'll let you know what they believe is good for the dog and what isn't. You always want to be clear with dogs and not confuse them as to what their "job" really is. I don't know if something like Schutzhund is even possible when training a PPD as one is a sport/game where the other one is 100% serious.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> OUbrat79,
> Can you post this dog's pedigree? What dog's in your dog's pedigree suggest to you that your dog might have the genetics to be a personal protection dog?


This is where he came from www.taylorsgsd.com. His father is Geschenk and his mother is Roxi. 


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

OUbrat79 said:


> The threat has been reported and a protective order is in place, although the individual has proven a protective order has no effect on him. Also he will be going to jail in July for 2 years, we are moving while he is in jail so hopefully it will be harder to find us.
> 
> I have worked very hard to protected my entire family, including our GSD.
> 
> ...


 
I would suggest for you to forget about protection training. If you own a stable dog, it will protect your family. It may not jump up and grab an arm and hang on..but it will protect. Even if it's just an 'alarm' for you. It will protect. 

I would suggest allowing your daughter to join 4-H. Have her train and show your pup through 4-H. Develope a deep relationship between your dog and your family. Allow your GSD to be what it was bred to be. 

If you want to do SAR work, you still can.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The sire is highlines/showlines, so the odds of the genetics for any type of protection dog are not likely there. The dam is working lines, but then you need to know about the individual dogs behind her. Also, keep in mind there is a difference between a property protection dog and a personal protection dog. A property protection dog is not social and his job is to bite anyone that comes on the property when you are not there. A personal protection dog needs to be social and more balanced, with a higher threshold for defensiveness, but not just a prey dog and must have some type of aggressiveness as part of his temperament. These types of dogs are highly advertised, but not that common. Then, if you have the correct dog, (and the odds are you don't) you have to consider how you are going to train the dog. For a personal protection dog, I wouldn't advocate a traditional sport approach to bitework, as the dog will likely come to see the training as too much of a game. You might use some elements of sport bite training, but then shift after the dog learns to bite a prey object, develop its grip, out, etc. You also will need very good obedience on the dog, which should be laid with a positive foundation using food and prey drive to shape the obedience behaviors.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Lilie,
Having a stable dog has nothing to do with whether it will protect or not.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Lilie,
> Having a stable dog has nothing to do with whether it will protect or not.


I respectfully disagree and do so due to personal experiance.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Being trained as a PPD...takes a special dog...but I'm with Lillie on the fact that if you have a good, stable, dog it will protect you when it needs to. My dog is excellent at discerning friend from foe, and much of it has to do with how I'm feeling/reacting at the time. He's never been tested, but I know he'd protect me. But I don't have any romantic thoughts about him being a fully trained PPD...that is probably not possible.

I don't want to make any assumptions or comments on the pedigree shown...as its not really a pedigree and just a website, but after being around GSDs for 2 years I know that it takes quite the pedigree/temperament to be a working dog. I don't ever believe the BREEDER or OWNER of either parent as they are usually terribly biased even if they don't mean to be. The fact is...it really depends on what kind of "protection" the OP is thinking of. The type where the dog is patrolling the perimeter all day long, or the type that just deters people from coming near the handler.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Lilie,
You might have had a GSD that protected you before, but the reason was not as simple as the dog was stable. Firstly, the term stable is so vague it doesn't convey much meaning. Could you share what behavior your dog displayed when he protected you? Did he bite someone and hold on while they struck him and screamed at him, or did he simply bark at someone? A dog will protect you based on having some elements of aggression within its temperament. A lot of GSDs have a low threshold for defense and are overly defensive and are displaying self defense when they perceive a threat. So they display a very aggressive show of teeth and barking. But what they are really doing is trying to chase the perceived bad guy away because they are fearful or insecure. A dog like that will easily be run off with some pressure.
Actice or reactive defense drive is a more confidenve type of aggression found in protection breeds where the dog is very forward toward a threat and will attack the threat aggressively. This type of dog rarely ends up in the hands of someone who is not connected to certain breeders or who hasn't handled strong dogs in bitework. 
Then there is social aggression, which has largely been bred out of the protection breeds, where the dog will be motivated to bite anyone outside of its pack. That does not mean the dog is unstable, but it requires a much higher level of vigilence on the part of the owner. Again, these dogs are rare.
It is naive to think because a dog is a GSD and is "stable" it will protect. I would say the majority of GSDs don't make good personal protection dogs and won't bite for real.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Lilie,
> You might have had a GSD that protected you before, but the reason was not as simple as the dog was stable.


I agree. Which is why I suggested having the family (including the child) work with (training) the dog. 

A dog (of any breed) does not have to champion bitework to become a valuable piece of protection for the family. It can be as simple as a dog that will bark and wake a sleeping family to 'protect' it from an intruder. The OP stated they have engaged in other means to protect their family. The dog doesn't need to jump on the intruder and hold it to make the intruder an eaiser target. 

I live in a country with the right to bare arms. I don't intend on utilizing my dog(s) as a shield against those arms. 

I had a GSD who jumped into a swimming pool and bit a man in the face. This man was holding me underwater attempting to rape me. She had no protection training. She was a stable, friendly dog before and after the event. 

I had an Aussie who backed a man out of my barn (on my property, behind my house) when he attempted to approach me after I told him to leave. This dog was a stable friendly dog before and after the event. 

I had a Mini Dachshund rescue who was as nuts as they come. However, I had a stray dog come after me on my property and she ran (screaming) to the dog and plowed through it's legs sending it sprawling and then it ran off. 

I have a hard time understanding why people who work hard becoming partners with their canines wouldn't consider the fact that the canine would stand by thier side in any event.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You sound like you have been very fortunate to have had some special dogs. The reason I don't accept that having a good relationship with your dog is equivalent to the dog protecting you is that the majority of people treat their dogs well and the majority of dogs won't protect. Dog breeding has become a disaster, especially under organizations like the AKC. A dog receives papers documenting that it is a "purebred" yet it can perform few of the functions it was originally breed to do. There is no selecting for certain traits other than physical traits. I don't believe loyalty alone yields protection in dogs.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

pets4life said:


> I dont think you guys get it, are you talking about turning just any dog into a serious pp dog? It doesnt work like that. The dog has to be the type to start with. Being high drive means nothing. Very few dogs make the cut to be true PP dogs. GOod chances are your dog is not the dog for the job.
> 
> If you wanted a protection dog you usually select for this before by choosing the right breeder.


I agree...I don't know if this was directed at me...I just didn't feel the need to point that out to OP...she'd find out soon enough when she started training....unfortunately most "trainers" will "train" a PP dog, regardless of whether the dog can cut it or not. Sad...but true...


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Chip, I think Lillie was just pointing out that any dog can be a deterrent....Just OWNING a GSD can make you a little safer...It can be the biggest weenie in the world, but it's size, presence, LOOK, will cause most to pause and rethink what they are doing. Or as an auditory alert. To me, that's enough. Rarely does a dog need to latch on to someone and deal with being hit and screamed at....and I don't think that's what Lillie was expecting or suggesting at all. Let the dog be what it will be, visible...maybe audible... deterrent. 

OP you said you wouldn't arm yourself just out and about...why not? Get the proper training, get involved with educated, experienced, teachers, and take your protection into your own hands....sounds like this is something more than a dog would or should be able to handle.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

DF,
I think you are probably right. To me, a personal protection dog or property protection dog has specific requirements. I am sure that most people think that because they own one of the so called protection breeds, their dog will protect them, when IMO, the opposite is true do to poor breeding practices, lack of knowledge, breed registries, etc.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Chip, I couldn't agree more...But I've learned the only way most will agree(not talking about anyone in particular), is when they SEE it...and on the internet you can't make anyone SEE anything. They'll find out when they are in the middle of it all, or being evaluated by honest, experienced, trainers....and even then, most of the time they will just move onto a trainer that will "make it happen." Money is a huge motivator for most "trainers." Sad, but I've found it to be true again and again.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I would not train ipo at the sametime as real pp some advanced trainers have cross trained i guess but it just will confuse the dog and cause training issues. Stick to one thing. I am sure you could cross train pp and psa though.

I agree with chip here 100 percent

THere are dogs out there many that will bite a person to help there owners out, when we create protection dogs in training the dogs will put up with huge amounts of paiin and keep fighting and love the fight. Its not like a pet that just bites someone one barks someone to defend once in a blue moon. Its more like a real body guard. PP dogs are trained to bite all sorts of areas of the body and become experts at it. They become experts at dealing with kicks and any fast moving blows or objects that come towards them. Like the black belt of dogs. If the dog does not LOVE this sort of fighting the dog wont be trained its a wash out. THat is why its so hard to find a gsd that would enjoy that. Being balanced is just a good part of it because we expect to take these dogs in public. Many dogs are balanced but may not have the courage to face off an attacker.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

yes dani trainers will train her dog or any dog you throw at them corner it and scare the crap out of it because they want money

This is what i was trying to save the OP from


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I still think OP needs to get out and try it, and talk to actual trainers. Unless they're talking about sending the dog away for some serious training, most people don't realize the commitment it takes to train a dog to do ANYTHING reliably. I'm pretty sure people spend quite a bit of time training SAR, and then on top of that OP wants to train the dog in PP. I know that Schutzhund is quite the time commitment...I can't imagine what PP would be. Most dogs take constant training by full-time professionals in order to be ready in any realistic amount of time...and we're discussing an amateur doing the same thing.

I can't imagine the time commitment this type of dog is going to take. At minimum a year of training before its operational, and that really depends on the lines/maturity/ect. OP, not sure if you've looked into purchasing an already trained dog...but they easily run into the 5 figure range. And on the 5 figure price tag...the trainer makes a living on top of all the costs of training the dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

So here is a question. There is no way the dog will be "ready" by July when your threat goes away for 2 years. School should be out now or very soon. 

It sounds hit or miss for him becoming a PP dog. I would be working with folks when you get to where you are going about coming up with a plan to protect yourself and your kids.....which might mean a few moves, some name changes, whatever it takes.

Personally I would stay out of SAR even if the dog is not suited for personal protection, just because your picture may get in the paper or on the news and you would want to lay low ... plus do you really want to be gone at night etc? Keep the dog active doing something fun and he should be fine. Even do dogsport if you like.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

What trainers should they talk to?? Give me any dog you want I can find a trainer willing to work with them in a day. If you have the money ill get the trainer. PP is a shady business. Now a trainer that trains in both sports and pp will probably not be as shady. JHMO. 


I feel for the OP but if someone wants them to go to a trainer they are nothing but bait. Someone needs to refer them to a good trainer in their area. Maybe a good breeder or someone in sports who understands the proper drives needed can even look at the dog. The big thing is to help the op you want them to end up in the right hands.

The sar thing is silly right now like jocoyn said one job at a time.

It is not common and I have not seen it bred here but in pp we have an extreme civil PP monster who is monsly showline. But i admit it is rare. This is german showline not american. Id love to help the OP into the right hands but they are no where near me so if someone is in their area please help out ?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

What you may be able to do is take your dog up to level one that is to bark fierce when you turn him on then diffuse to turn him off, he may or may not be able to do that, truth is good pp trainers will admit to what is really out there. IN this area specially my trainer said for personal protection very few dogs are able to take training to a higher level with muzzle, hidden sleeves, targetting bites from arm to leg or leg to wrist, This time of training he almost never does with many dogs at all. Hes doing/done with mine and a couple of other dogs from a quebec breeder whos gsd is competing with mals in ring. This is a montreal trainer as i did not trust any in ontario. ALso other things like being attacked in the woods you take into the consideration if you are on the bottom your dog may just tear you up instead ? It is a lot of  work a lot of expense and a lot of time. The dog being very balanced Helps because the liablity is a lot more small. Rather than a sharper dog like my friends mal who quickly will react with a grab if someone messes around him. 

The level one of training your dogs on the training they usually do on dobes and rotties because these dogs almost always are never good enough to train serious bite work and dont go into serious fight drive with courage the way good mals and gsds do. If your shepherd is a nice barker. It would be a good thing to consider in the meantime. For this you can talk to sports people. Or an experienced decoy. It is easyt o train with a dog that barks. You reward the dog a lot.

Gsds are suppose to be powerful breeds with the highest intelligence, I am all for them used as serious PP/bodyguards because if you have the right one the dog can do the task and do it very well. But just so much misconceptions about it around. Specially when it comes to real protection. If you are a big dog person a ppd dog can do other things like agility etc.. Good ones have solid temperaments and are very balanced so a great dog to take all over with you. Ready to protect in an instant when turned on.

Maybe the next one you choose will have the proper temperament for it, Plenty on this forum have dogs like that, Its just insane amount of people breeding dogs that dont ruin it. I really want one of cliffs dogs now out of that ddr line.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

I give up. No matter what I say on the thread I am going to be judge as irresponsible and my dog judged as the inept pet that cannot be trained correctly. Never said I wouldn't seek out the proper trainer or that I would bounce from trainer to trainer till I found one willing to train him. 


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

No one is judging you personally. Many of us have been in your shoes so know what is like. 

We are more so judging the horrible world of training pp dogs and what some crappy people call themsleves trainers. WHat they will do to a dog to pretend that dog is being trained. THey will also try to sell you one of their dogs often. NEVER buy one from them as its almost always garbage in 99 percent of the cases.

None is directed at you everyone is more Well at least I am speaking about the world in general of pp training and dogs and the gsds ability of a serious protection animal. 

LOgic says your expecptations are realistic you have the best breed for it, strong healthy and mature. Its just these days society has turned everything so complex 

You coming in here are smart,


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

this is the sign I'm getting for my yard. We haven't needed it yet but just as a "warning"

DOG BARKS __ OWNER SHOOTS

that's it. we have 2 dogs that would bark their heads off if somebody came close to the doors. That gives me time to get what I need and do a meet and greet at the door. I am not putting my dogs in the position to do anymore than to alert me.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

as far as "needing protection" ...I agree with the person who said your dog probably won't be properly trained before you need it. U said your "threat" was going to prison in July. Call your police department and let them know how fearful you are and ask them to do extra patrol around your area. Let your neighbors know so they are also alert. There are better ways to handle this than trying to train a dog to kill for you.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

the dog barking fierce usually does work but not always specially when people on drugs or high those times you will need a good dog to put the fear of god into someone. They usually go into shock and become a screaming mess with they bleed out anyway. THe power of that bite is insane. THE mals bite is not even as powerful as a gsd but the mal as a lot of courage and puts many bad guys out in seconds. Ring trainers have addmitted that the mals bite cannot compare to the raw bruite chomping force of a good gsd. THey are much smaller dogs usually also. But these tiny mals know how to bring a man to the ground very quick. Its all the brain.

I admit after test after test on my dogs protection skills and even being told my a trainer on the first day that my dog would protect for real without training (like eurosport josiff said) And now after having her trained myself off and on a couple of years I do not really fear anything when i am around with her at night. But shes not bullet proof. 

Meantime it is legal to get tasers there? I read. Can u get some? ALso mace get some mace. SO mace and tasers. THe kind that is like a gun so u can shoot him.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

pets4life said:


> What trainers should they talk to?? Give me any dog you want I can find a trainer willing to work with them in a day. If you have the money ill get the trainer. *PP is a shady business*. Now a trainer that trains in both sports and pp will probably not be as shady. JHMO.
> 
> 
> I feel for the OP but if someone wants them to go to a trainer they are nothing but bait. Someone needs to refer them to a good trainer in their area. Maybe a good breeder or someone in sports who understands the proper drives needed can even look at the dog. The big thing is to help the op you want them to end up in the right hands.
> ...


I'm glad someone said it....the one person I would trust to train a dog in PP does NOT advertise that he can/does train it. He just advertises obedience, and treating behavioral issues. He also trains police K9's at an academy and used to work/train VERY successful SchH dogs. But he's kind of burned out to the SchH PEOPLE in the sport...lol


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

OUbrat79,
The problem is that you didn't look before you lept. The GSD is not anything near what is used to be when Von Stephantz tried to make it into a working dog. Its popularity has diluted it into a pet breed for the most part. PLus, you have not educated yourself about what type of dog is required for what you want or how to acquire such a dog and how to train it. It requires a lot of work and knowledge. You should try to build a proper foundation with your dog in obedience using motivational techniques as a beginning such as becomming proficient at using food and a tug to shape behavior. If your dog has little drive for a tug, that tells you something. But you also have to be skilled at knowing how to use a prey object to stimulate prey drive, especially in less than optimal candidates. I wouldn't give up, but rather try to learn more.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Even with pups you still wont know if it makes the cut. Best to get a green young dog/pup that had its foundation already started for you. Trained in positive ways so they didnt screw your dog up in anyway. It helps to have the out already trained before you get the dog lol


If ending up as a serious pp did not mean that much to me but id prefer it then i would get a pup a young one and do it all myself. If it was very important to me that this dog end up a very strong pp dog then I will get a green started dog or an older adult dog NEVER a pup.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> as far as "needing protection" ...I agree with the person who said your dog probably won't be properly trained before you need it. U said your "threat" was going to prison in July. Call your police department and let them know how fearful you are and ask them to do extra patrol around your area. Let your neighbors know so they are also alert. There are better ways to handle this than trying to train a dog to kill for you.


I'm not trying to get the dog trained by July, that is not even possible. I stated he would be in jail for 2 years, after that there is a good chance he will be coming to find us.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Pets4,
You make a good point, but there are problems with green dogs as well. Often, the owner is not that invested in putting the time into them and you really don't know how they were trained. Then, if they are such a good dog, why would the owner be selling it?
But you would know something about the dog's drives nerves and orthopedic health.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

OUbrat79 said:


> I'm not trying to get the dog trained by July, that is not even possible. I stated he would be in jail for 2 years, after that there is a good chance he will be coming to find us.


If you think you may have someone actively hunting you, forget the dog. Buy and learn to use a firearm and carry it daily. Teach your family members that are old enough too. Having a dog in the home that will react to a knock on the door or a strange sound outside at night is one thing.

_You_ are the only thing _you_ can count on to defend yourself and/or you family. Don't make the dog responible for something you should be responsible for yourself.

Your safety and that of your family.

It's not the dog's responsibility, it's not the police departments responsibility, and it's not ADT's responsibility. It is your responsibility.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

OUbrat79 said:


> I'm not trying to get the dog trained by July, that is not even possible. I stated he would be in jail for 2 years, after that there is a good chance he will be coming to find us.


I applaud you for being proactive regarding protecting your family. I urge you to consider all of your options, including but not limited to seeking out personal protection training for YOU, as you will be your best defense against any threat. 

I think your post was taken out of context and utilized to once again bash 'pet' GSDs. You have stated several times that you are seeking out all avenues to build your home defense plans. Don't under estimate your dog and what opportunities your dog can provide for you and your family as an 'alert' system. Even the best PP dog, with the best bite is no match for an armed, determined threat. I do not see that as your intention as it would be insane to do so. 

I truly wish the best for you and your family. I can't imagine what you must be going through and wish there were more that could be done to ensure your safety.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I agree with all of what Michael E said... If your threat is this serious ..this is not a dogs job. This is YOUR job. 
I myself would be talking and channeling proper authorities and stating...if you don't take care of this I WILL. Sometimes you have to just be that direct. 

And yes I HAVE been in a situation like this. My 25 year old daughter who lives with us was mixed up with an felon who is now back in prison. I didn't buy a dog to protect us...what I did was inform the sheriff of our jurisdiction that I would need extra patrolling ( which they were happy to do) ..actually they were hoping he'd show up on my property cuz they were done dealing with him. I also informed the felon that my daughter was done with him and if he tried to talk to her or he came on our property ...I'd shoot first and ask questions later. I also made sure my daughter was taught a good aim. 

Sometimes people have to learn to protect themselves. Don't rely on or put a dog in that role.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> If you think you may have someone actively hunting you, forget the dog. Buy and learn to use a firearm and carry it daily. Teach your family members that are old enough too. Having a dog in the home that will react to a knock on the door or a strange sound outside at night is one thing.
> 
> _You_ are the only thing _you_ can count on to defend yourself and/or you family. Don't make the dog responible for something you should be responsible for yourself.
> 
> ...


I have been trained in self defense and have been trained in firearms, which I own. I use many forms of defense, I was just looking into adding my dog to my list. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OUbrat79 said:


> I have been trained in self defense and have been trained in firearms, which I own. I use many forms of defense, I was just looking into adding my dog to my list.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And there is no problem with that....no one needed to jump down your throat about your dog...I don't think anyone HERE has met or evaluated him. It seems you have realistic expectations, and will be honest with yourself about what you have. I would talk to some local police departments in the area, see who/where they train their K9's, and ask if they can put you into contact with anyone to have your dog evaluated. That person will, hopefully, be an experienced, honest, morally sound, individual, who can help you out. Good Luck.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah I remember when I was looking into Schutzhund I was warned about picking the right helper and trainer. I hear of one guy in the area that won't train your dog correctly if you didn't buy it from him, that way when you do buy your next dog from him he can prove to you that his dogs are better than whatever it is you're bringing him.

Truth is many dog trainers will mess with your dog. They have their ways and unless you have the gusto to stand up to them they will use their ways. Without knowing a lot of people that have had success with that trainer, and seeing the results for yourself, its hard to know who's good and who's bad. Usually you only get the good reviews on their website and you don't get the people that butted heads with the trainer.

PP is probably even harder to find a good trainer as so few people do it. Take DaniFani's advice and see if you can figure out who trains the K9s in the area, or maybe a government contracted facility for military dogs. At least then you know they have proven methods and results.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

I will defiantly thoroughly check out the trainer. I have already had my one AND ONLY experience with a bad trainer. I made the mistake of trusting what a few friends said about a trainer and am now kicking myself. 


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

Dogs, trainers, and their level of competence and quality come in widely varying levels. 

A *properly* trained dog is just another security layer in the master plan. Do your research. As stated earlier, there are many individuals who hang out their shingles as "trainers" (whether K9 or firearms) that have zero credentials or real world experience, and thus have absolutely no business giving people a false sense of security. Choose wisely when your safety is at stake.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

chip there are a few trust worthy breeders out there in america and slovak that can get you a nice pp prospect

REmember a gsd that can excel in pp is not that big of a deal like it would be if you found a rottie or a dobie that can excel in it. There still are plenty in europe also and america that a reg person can get their hands on. For dobies and rotties it is almost impossible.

A lot of gsd breeders still breeding for police. So they are still getting lots of dogs that can be strong even extreme pp dogs. Its just if you want another breed getting your hands on one will be very hard or almost impossible.


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