# Platz during bark and hold?



## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

We have begun to teach the bark and hold on a long line. However, when giving the revere command, Titan has now begun to platz. He still continues to bark strongly, and launches with a full bite. 
The helper I am working with says that there is no set rule saying he has to sit during the bark and hold. 
However, I would prefer to teach the bark and hold as a sit. 
In my mind, I want to teach him to sit beside me, give the revere command, and on the send out, give the sit command, until he gets into a routine and there is no need to give the sit command after the revere. 
The trainer and helper both say to reward the platz. Is this okay? I just don't see him eventually starting to sit. 
I read on the working dog forum that when the dog goes into the platz, that it could be a confidence issue, and he is being worked too much in defense. 
I'm just trying to wrap my head around all this, being so new to the sport. 
Basically, I want to know if it's okay for him to be in a platz during the bark and hold. I know there isn't a rule against it, but what exactly does him doing that means, and if it could cause any further issues in the future. 
How is the bark and hold normally taught?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I wouldn't want a platz. I wouldn't want to reward what I don't want. Maybe its something like too much obedience from you right there, he's not ready for that. One thing I might think about is removing you from it a little. 

Maybe ask the helper about letting Titan drag you forward to him after a couple of misses. Try and make it more between the helper and Titan, less influence from you for right now.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

As of right now, Titan is tied to a tree, with a long line attached to his harness. He is given the rever command, and he runs to the end of the line where he then will platz and bark. 
I then (per my trainer and helper) tell him good rever. The helper will then raise the stick and the sleeve, and he launches for a bite. The helper fights him, might wave the stick, or he will hit the long line. Titan will then fight harder, and he will growl on occasion, which I asked about and they said they weren't worried about it. He will then slip the sleeve, I give the out command, and we start again. 
I would prefer to only reward him if he sits, but he seems to naturally want to platz, and then since we have been rewarding it, he does it automatically now. Which I really don't want


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why do you want him to sit? 
I'd want an active guard with strong barking. I don't want my dog bouncing up in the face either, but actively barking at the helper in a rhythm with power. Some people think the in your face guarding is cool, but all that jumping is a waste of energy(should be redirected into the power of the bark)

I agree with Steve, let Titan drag you to the helper. I would work on this in the open/not in the blind.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

He has not done any blind work yet. 
He's just on a 30 foot line. But it's attached to a tree. 
I will ask if I can have him drag me towards the helper during our next session. 
I was just wondering if it's ok to do a bark and hold from a platz and if it would cause any problems. 
He still barks strong, and will launch from the platz, and bites full. I just didn't know if this was excepted or not. And if it meant he wasn't as confident, because he is laying down. 
When I asked the helper about this, he told me it's his way of thinking, and it's the only way he can contain himself not to bite until he's supposed to. 
I'm just trying to understand why he would chose to platz instead of sit, if here was any real meaning behind it, or if it's just something he does.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe get him off the tree and see if there is any difference. Can you safely post him to keep him where he should be? Table work may help with this. I personally wouldn't want my dog sitting or platzing during an active guard.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> He is given the rever command, and he runs to the end of the line where he then will platz and bark.


It may be that sudden jolt at the end of the line thats causing it. Try taking him calmly to the end of the line, sit him, calmly, then activate him and get out of the way. Let the helper take it from there.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DTS said:


> As of right now, Titan is tied to a tree, with a long line attached to his harness. He is given the rever command, *and he runs to the end of the line where he then will platz and bark. *
> I then (per my trainer and helper) tell him good rever. The helper will then raise the stick and the sleeve, and he launches for a bite. The helper fights him, might wave the stick, or he will hit the long line. Titan will then fight harder, and he will growl on occasion, which I asked about and they said they weren't worried about it. He will then slip the sleeve, I give the out command, and we start again.
> I would prefer to only reward him if he sits, but he seems to naturally want to platz, and then since we have been rewarding it, he does it automatically now. Which I really don't want


Is he on a prong collar? My trainer always wants loose lines. He doesn't even want the line lying in my hand and putting any tension on his collar. My suspicion is he's on a tight line, you have no control because he's tied to a tree so he started lying down trying to figure out what you wanted from him.

If you want him to sit, don't give him the sleeve for platzing.

ETA: I was trying to describe what Steve did above! The jolt at the end of the line is 'correcting' him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I personally wouldn't want my dog *sitting *or platzing during an active guard.


Why? 

That's what we're working on with Seger. He's sitting and guarding. I don't want him on his feet so he can jump in the helper's face. He has a nice rhythm he settles in to while guarding where he almost rocks his body.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

But he isn't sitting, he is still in a rhythm, that is what I am describing. There is movement as he guards, he isn't just sitting there barking, correct?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

awww...gotcha! I wondered if we were saying the same thing in a different way.  Yes, the rhythm makes him rock back and forth but in a sitting position so he's stable and not jumping in the helper's face. So he is sitting but not.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

The long line is attached to his harness. I don't have any lines to his collar. 
This was the first week we started kind of sending him out according to my husband. He took him this week because I have to work and lately he's only been doing protection once or twice a month bc I'm working. 
Normally he's already at the end of the line and then we just started the rever command a few times ago. 
I'm going to see if someone could hold him for me, while I stand next to him to give the command and then get out of the way. 
I'd like to try and hold him myself, as I used to do that before we started all this. I'm not sure what tying him to the tree is for, except to make sure he doesn't go anywhere. 
We don't use any blinds.

He just flat out lays down and does a strong bark. The helper makes an aggressive move, and he launches. 
So what I am gathering is, he might be frustrated and confused because he can,t go any father while on the line so he just lays down and barks because he thinks that's what I want.
And since he was rewarded by the helper with the sleeve, and now he is verbally being rewarded, he thinks this is what he's supposed to do now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Tying him to the tree is to keep him off the helper. And he is teaching him the bark and hold separate from the blind, which is what my trainer does as well.

The Revier command should send him out and then be repeated when he's hit his rhythm. I'm willing to be the tension on his harness is causing him to down along with the lack of direction. Seger is worked on a platform and if he stops barking or were to lay down, I would pull him back to fire him back up. I have a line on his harness and a line on his prong that I use if he comes off the platform or to lightly pop him if he's not doing the bark and hold as he should.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> awww...gotcha! I wondered if we were saying the same thing in a different way.  Yes, the rhythm makes him rock back and forth but in a sitting position so he's stable and not jumping in the helper's face. So he is sitting but not.


Karlo never has been one to drop his butt when he's guarding. He doesn't bounce either.
He's pretty clean as well, so I don't try to change it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wish this forum had a "Like" button.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Ok that helps a lot. I was under the impression it was standard they sat and barked.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The one thing they should never do is jump in the helper's face. I think style and training have a lot to do with how they come into the blind. I'm very new to the whole thing but I've seen some dogs drop their butt and some like Karlo. All are clean


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

All dogs are different. You have to work with the dog you have. If your helper seems to think platzing is best for him to stay clean, then listen to the helper. 
BUT there are other ways of teaching the dog that bumping/ biting is not allowed until triggered. Does your group use a table or platform? It helps set the dog up into the zone. A board in front of the helper also helps the dog understand there is that boundary.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

They don't use a table or anything, but I watched a video with a mal that used one and I think it would be extremely beneficial for my dog and a few others. I'm going to bring it up next time and see where it goes. If they don't like it well it's my dog, if I want to use one and see how it goes, I should be able to. 
I'm assuming using one, and then moving it to blind work would help with the transition. I don't know when we will start the transition, but the platform would help him learn he has to stay at a certain distance from the helper in order to get the reward right? That's the man thing I'm concerned with. I really don't want him to get into the habit of mugging the helper. 3 or 4 dogs we have do that and I really don't want him to start.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is your dog a confident dog? Sometimes giving a dirty bite or a bump is good for the ego. Of course something that shouldn't be made into a habit. My dog will still give a bump as he comes in to the blind, we have cleaned it up, but any new helper he sees, I basically assume he'll try to see what he can get away with. 
Tables aren't that easy to make, so using one may be more difficult than you think. If anyone has agility equipment, the place board can be used in a pinch.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm sure my husband could make the table, if I found instructions or plans for one. He's really good at building things. He built titan's Bailey chairs for me lol. Titan is a confident dog in my opinion, which is noob status. He's never backed down, never came off a bite, and when he has been stressed with the stick or whip, the helper has said his bite never changed. He is a dog that will try and get away with whatever he can, and when he is locked in drive, he becomes hard of hearing, which is a reason I want our OB to be rock solid before we do any blind work. I feel like calling him off into a fuss from the helper is going to be a challenge for us. 
In the video I watched, the platform was almost like a pallet, but the top was fully sheeted with wood. But I know it needs to be sturdy and won't move under pressure. Hmmmmm I have some research to do.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Do you have video? That always helps explain exactly what the dog is doing.

I would get him off the tree. If you can't hold him, get someone who understands how to back handle do it for you. I like to teach the B&H with two lines. One on a harness/Agitation collar and one on a pinch or fur saver. Leave the dog wild, let him run out to the end of the line and go nuts(like foundational bite work). Then drag in (as Steve said) to the correct distance and pop back or up depending (how hard depends on the dog) on the control line (pinch or fursaver). If the dog does something I don't like, the handler holds the agitation line tight and I (the helper) jump out of it and reset. This is just a generic answer without having the dog in front of me or video. I also agree with Steve that the sudden stop at the end is making it unclear to the dog what you're asking. 

A table wouldn't be my "go to" for a dog that lays down. If anything, I would elevate the helper, not the dog. Could it work? Sure if used correctly but...


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

The is nothing against sitting, standing or laying down on bark and hold. However for me I would want my dog to sit or stand while guarding. The problem will come when he is guarding out on the field and is in a down position, when the helper attacks the way they are suppose to, it will be difficult for the dog to come upwards into a full grip and thus have a big potential to not have a full grip and the reattack grips are the biggest point grips in IPO. If you are just training to title the dog and don't really care about scoring high points, then leave it alone. But if you are trying to compete with this dog then I would try to get him to sit or stand during guarding.... We have a dog in for training now that was initially taught to lay down and guard, we changed it in about a month to him sitting and pounding the ground while guarding....

Frank


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Does it look like this in the beginning, DTS? Not exactly platz'ed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_W6N16a9nQ


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

He does do that, but when the helper stops moving, he goes into a complete platz, but still barks. I, going on my honeymoon this weekend, I will be able to get a video the Sunday after this one. Jan. 11.


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