# eCollars



## Quorthun (24 d ago)

Do you believe eCollars should be banned?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Better utilized, not banned


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think if most people understood how to use an e collar as good as they do luring, most behavior issues would be gone.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

They are a tool that like any other tool can be used improperly.
The leash is a stearing wheel
The prong collar is power steering
the e-collar is a cell phone.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

Quorthun said:


> Do you believe eCollars should be banned?


Why do you need e collar when there is prozac?

Jean Donaldson's training technique lol


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## Quorthun (24 d ago)

BdeAngelo said:


> Why do you need e collar when there is prozac?
> 
> Jean Donaldson's "pilling" technique lol


Lol, you make a good point.
But if someone were to seriously consider this, why get a high energy high breed at all?
We get high energy working dogs to give them good lives by playing, training, and sporting with them. 
We love they're high energy, why suppress their natural instincts with drugs?
A Dog living a life as a drugged up junkie is no life for a dog at all.
I would consider forcing your dog to do drugs is abuse.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

I don't want anyone to think I'm against medicating dogs when necessary for varieties of issues. However, when you go to force-free/PO dogforums and have minor training issue, the first thing they'll tell you is to seek out a veterinary behaviorist and ask about suppressing the dog through drugs.


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## Quorthun (24 d ago)

BdeAngelo said:


> I don't want anyone to think I'm against medicating dogs when necessary for varieties of issues. However, when you go to force-free/PO dogforums and have minor training issue, the first thing they'll tell you is to seek out a veterinary behaviorist and ask about suppressing the dog through drugs.


I'm not against medicating "when necessary" either.
In my opinion "When Necessary" shouldn't be when the dog cannot be trained or has issues with high energy, jumping, or barking.
The "When Necessary" recommended by many veterinary behaviorists is my concern.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

Quorthun said:


> I'm not against medicating "when necessary" either.
> In my opinion "When Necessary" shouldn't be when the dog cannot be trained or has issues with high energy, jumping, or barking.
> The "When Necessary" recommended by many veterinary behaviorists is my concern.


Totally agree.

Some will say that drugs aren't aversive. That may be true for some drugs but not others.


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## doubleroll (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't think they should be banned but I do agree e-collars should be used correctly with proper training. I can imagine they would be very beneficial for Hunters, etc…


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

Elke does not handle strange situations well. That includes the vet. Last time we had her in for a rabies shot she was her usually screaming self. Just before we left the vet walked in with a little green bottle and told us to give her one pill before we bring her in again. That we would bring her back to that vet was quite an assumption on his part....


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## doubleroll (Jul 5, 2011)

Actually just to add my experience, when Vienna sees me get the e-collar she gets excited and comes right over to have me put it on her…shes knows freedom and fun is next!


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

doubleroll said:


> Actually just to add my experience, when Vienna sees me get the e-collar she gets excited and comes right over to have me put it on her…shes knows freedom and fun is next!


^^^^this


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## jfert (9 mo ago)

X2. Only thing that gets turbo more excited is when I take out a tug. 
In jurisdictions that have these bans, how is it actually enforced? Can vendors not ship to those addresses? I can’t imagine (most) police are going to be trained to assess and then take their time confront and write tickets to people with well behaved dogs with a funny collar around their neck. And any department that has a K-9 unit, how are they going to deal with the hypocrisy?


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## ctu24 (Oct 1, 2006)

Quorthun said:


> We love they're high energy, why suppress their natural instincts with drugs?


It seems that the e-collar is often used to suppress natural instincts, such as prey drive.

I’ve never heard of medications being used for high energy. I know one dog that has really high anxiety and medications have definitely helped with some of his behavioral issues.


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

doubleroll said:


> Actually just to add my experience, when Vienna sees me get the e-collar she gets excited and comes right over to have me put it on her…shes knows freedom and fun is next!


Same in my house!


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Larry Krohn has some videos currently up where he is working with a Doodle named Daisy. This dog needed her confidence built up, which he did without the e-collar. When he moved to e-collar training he found out, and the owners confirmed, that she previously had a bad experience with an e-collar. She shut down as soon as he put the collar on, prior to even using it.

He does a few interesting things:

1) starts with a low working level on the collar
2) Only teaches the dog about the e-collar with commands she already knows well
3) uses both "come" and "place" commands so she learns that with the collar that she should both come and go away .
4) He uses a lot of R- as opposed to R+. Positive punishment (R+) is a pure aversive used to stop behaviours. Negative punishment(R-) is the removal of the stimulation when the dog does what is asked. This teaches the dog that she has control of the stimulation. He prefers R- when teaching the dog about the e-collar. He calls this the conditioning stage. For clarity, this means that he taps the button prior to giving the command, then as soon as the dog starts to respond, he stops the stim.

This example teaches us a few things. The most important thing is that you don't just slap on an e-collar and start blasting. Secondly, it is best to get some professional help if you want to use an e-collar. By the way, he also has an inexpensive book available online, about e-collar training.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

ctu24 said:


> It seems that the e-collar is often used to suppress natural instincts, such as prey drive.
> 
> I’ve never heard of medications being used for high energy. I know one dog that has really high anxiety and medications have definitely helped with some of his behavioral issues.


The same medicine they use for “high anxiety” is used for high energy. Often times an anxious dog is like that due to misplaced energy and not having their needs met. You can use an e collar to surpress or eliminate behaviors. You can also use it to enhance behaviors. It is the most versatile tool in dog training.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

ctu24 said:


> It seems that the e-collar is often used to suppress natural instincts, such as prey drive.
> 
> *I’ve never heard of medications being used for high energy.* I know one dog that has really high anxiety and medications have definitely helped with some of his behavioral issues.











What can i Give my Dog to Calm Him Down? (5 tips & 6 meds)


Dogs are known to be excited and playful creatures. However, some dogs go overboard in terms of excitement, causing them to exhibit hyper behavior. While this can be great in some instances, it can quickly



www.dailydogstuff.com





_*“Is there anything fluoxetine can't do?” *_ - Nicholas Dodman


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## ctu24 (Oct 1, 2006)

BdeAngelo said:


> What can i Give my Dog to Calm Him Down? (5 tips & 6 meds)
> 
> 
> Dogs are known to be excited and playful creatures. However, some dogs go overboard in terms of excitement, causing them to exhibit hyper behavior. While this can be great in some instances, it can quickly
> ...


This is a very simple article mostly suggesting the obvious — that hyper active dogs just need more activity and stimulation. It suggests considering medication for dogs with major separation anxiety and for some severe aggression cases usually with shelter dogs.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

ctu24 said:


> This is a very simple article mostly suggesting the obvious — that hyper active dogs just need more activity and stimulation. It suggests considering medication for dogs with major separation anxiety and for some severe aggression cases usually with shelter dogs.


The very title of the article says, tip #6 = meds.

Prozac is the force-free/positive-only main tool of choice when it comes to aversives.


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## Quorthun (24 d ago)

ctu24 said:


> This is a very simple article mostly suggesting the obvious — that hyper active dogs just need more activity and stimulation. It suggests considering medication for dogs with major separation anxiety and for some severe aggression cases usually with shelter dogs.


_It suggests considering medication for dogs with major separation anxiety and for some severe aggression cases usually with shelter dogs._
Well, that's not what's happening in the real world. 
People are medicating their dogs because they cannot fix very simple standard behaviors such as leash reactivity using cookies, hotdogs, squeeky toys, or rainbows and unicorns. 
Instead of trying different training methods, many "Certified" trainers refer them to their friendly Vet Behaviorist drug dealer.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

Quorthun said:


> _It suggests considering medication for dogs with major separation anxiety and for some severe aggression cases usually with shelter dogs._
> Well, that's not what's happening in the real world.
> People are medicating their dogs because they cannot fix very simple standard behaviors such as leash reactivity using cookies, hotdogs, squeeky toys, or rainbows and unicorns.
> Instead of trying different training methods, many "Certified" trainers refer them to their friendly Vet Behaviorist drug dealer.


And the vast majority of APDT trainers and the like, such as "fear free", are in bed with the "fear free" veterinarians - which are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies.

IMO, this is called systematic indoctrination.


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## Quorthun (24 d ago)

BdeAngelo said:


> And the vast majority of APDT trainers and the like, such as "fear free", are in bed with the veterinarians - which are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> IMO, this is called systematic indoctrination.


I mean even if that's true, it's still a a bit of a stretch.
It's possible the APDT trainers think they're doing the right thing be "Helping"

This is a good example of a dog that would be considered to have "severe case of anxiety and aggression" that an APDT trainer would've referred to have medicated.
Good thing it was handled by a good trainer that produces results instead of a "Certified" Trainer.
2:10 - 2:39


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

Quorthun said:


> I mean even if that's true, it's still a a bit of a stretch.
> It's possible the APDT trainers think they're doing the right think be "Helping"
> 
> This is a good example of a dog that would be considered to have "severe case of anxiety and aggression" that an APDT trainer would've referred to have medicated.
> ...


And when their prozac fails to help, then that dog would be put to sleep.

Indoctrination = the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

"Fear free" trainer from Canada:








Canadian Megan Stanley Becomes Chair of APDT Board of Directors in January - APDT


Canadian Megan Stanley Becomes Chair of APDT Board of Directors in January After two years under the leadership of Robin Bennett of Virginia, the APDT Board of Directors will look to Megan Stanley, CPDT-KA, CBCC-KA, in the role of chair, beginning Jan. 1, 2018. Megan, from Calgary, Canada...




apdt.com





Here she talks about working with vets - "Beware of balance-trainer":








Why Trainers and Veterinary Professionals Should Work Together


APDT board chair Megan Stanley shares how training and veterinary professionals can work together to provide pets with Fear Free care. Fear Free Pets · Why Trainers and Veterinary Professionals Should Work Together




fearfreepets.com





"Fear free" - Corporate sponsors:





Our Friends


Fear Free is proud to call some of the most successful, well-known and reputable companies its corporate program members and strategic alliances.




fearfreepets.com





They call their sponsors "reputable" lol - google any of the main pharmaceutical companies and the vast majority have lengthy criminal histories such as Pfizer.


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## alwaysGSD (6 mo ago)

E-collars are training tools that when used correctly are invaluable. Many have the same misgivings with these devices as they might about a prong collar. Both tools most definitely have their place. Would much rather use a physical correction than medicate my girl. 
Like us, our dogs have to walk a tight rope through life to avoid possible health issues. I'll not introduce another chemical that can have adverse side effects down the road. E-collars are a momentary uncomfortable event to help condition a dog to behave correctly. Rarely are they needed for life. Medications just kick the can down the road and really don't seem to forge good behavior. 
Just my opinion as I've had very good success with an E-collar. My Gracie still loves me and our home has become a calm place for all of us as she understands her boundaries very well due to this type of training. I look forward to many years of great companionship since we are doing the work to get there now.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

BdeAngelo said:


> And when their prozac fails to help, then that dog would be put to sleep.
> 
> Indoctrination = the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.


Both philosophies ideally should refrain from insisting there's only one way to accomplish something. Nobody can learn or move forward if it's always _I'm right everyone else is wrong_


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

David Winners said:


> So the idea of shutting a dog down with heavy handed training, I don't care what tools you use, really disgusts me. That's why it bothers me when people assume that dogs trained with "those tools" have less fun. Like we are robbing them of something.
> 
> This dog is capable of doing just about anything. He's also capable of complete anarchy and destruction.
> 
> ...


*"I stand by my statement that it's takes proofing.* *The threat of consequence has to be there, in the back of their mind, keeping them honest." - *David Winners


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> Both philosophies ideally should refrain from insisting there's only one way to accomplish something. Nobody can learn or move forward if it's always _I'm right everyone else is wrong_


If someone wants to train force free it is easy to do and I've done it. Get yourself a large acreage away from people or go move to the woods and build an insulated dog house. Let the dog live completely free and feed it everyday and it will do it its own thing while sticking around and watching over its territory.

However, if you want to live in downtown New York with a civil and high drive dog you better bring your training to a higher level. And the truth is cookies and love won't cut it.


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## Quorthun (24 d ago)

dogma13 said:


> Both philosophies ideally should refrain from insisting there's only one way to accomplish something. Nobody can learn or move forward if it's always _I'm right everyone else is wrong_


Most people that train with tools don't disagree that positive reinforcement doesn't work. I use it for the over whelming majority of training for my dog.
The philosophy is going one way, it's being divided by one side VS everyone else. And that one side continues to grow in popularity through propaganda and lies and now has legal power backed by pseudo-science.
The force free side refuses to learn or look at the other side. Additionally, they're attempting to legally infringe rights and options out of ideology. 
When something is at stake in the legal ground, I would assume it's a wake up call to combat the other side directly, effectively, and vehemently instead of staying neutral or assuming results would speak for themselves.
It's a serious problem that needs to be dealt with in someway. It's no longer about morality, it's about legality and action must be taken.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's not what I meant.Flooding people aggressively with any new/different concept results in opposition more often than not.


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## Quorthun (24 d ago)

dogma13 said:


> That's not what I meant.Flooding people aggressively with any new/different concept results in opposition more often than not.


Ah I see now. Yeah, this is true for anything. 
It does appear to be working for force free ideology though?
I guess it's because their marketing is an easier sell to the general public.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> That's not what I meant.Flooding people aggressively with any new/different concept results in opposition more often than not.


You're correct, force-free ideologues are flooding everyone with lies and nonsense and this is resulting in "opposition".


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

BdeAngelo said:


> You're correct, force-free ideologues are flooding everyone with lies and nonsense and this is resulting in "opposition".


Come on....it goes both ways. To get a dialogue going we have to be willing to listen. Here's an example of introducing concepts I stumbled upon by accident: I was watching something on YouTube and saw that there was a clip of Tom Davis on a morning TV show!? I don't watch TV at all ,gave it up years ago.So I clicked on it out of curiosity to see him with his black mal(can't remember his name) demonstrating how to teach Place.Tom with his very well trained very happy mal is a step in the right direction to introduce balanced training to people. A few other videos popped up that made me think he evidently is a regular on that show. People will begin searching for his videos and learning new things. Tom uses every tool available depending on the particular dog he's working with on his personal videos.
Think about if Larry Krohn,Ivan,and so on were to try going this route on the major networks. Not the silly Animal Planet shows.Some of the late night shows too perhaps....


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> Come on....it goes both ways. To get a dialogue going we have to be willing to listen. Here's an example of introducing concepts I stumbled upon by accident: I was watching something on YouTube and saw that there was a clip of Tom Davis on a morning TV show!? I don't watch TV at all ,gave it up years ago.So I clicked on it out of curiosity to see him with his black mal(can't remember his name) demonstrating how to teach Place.Tom with his very well trained very happy mal is a step in the right direction to introduce balanced training to people. A few other videos popped up that made me think he evidently is a regular on that show. People will begin searching for his videos and learning new things. Tom uses every tool available depending on the particular dog he's working with on his personal videos.
> Think about if Larry Krohn,Ivan,and so on were to try going this route on the major networks. Not the silly Animal Planet shows.Some of the late night shows too perhaps....


I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. Can you please clarify?

There is a huge difference in teaching truth versus spreading intentional lies manufactured by corrupt academics and backed by big pharma.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think if you want people to listen and learn, bringing to them and presenting it in way they can accept would be effective. "The other side" is using the media.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

BdeAngelo said:


> *And the truth is cookies and love won't cut it.*


OK, made me laugh


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> I think if you want people to listen and learn, bringing to them and presenting it in way they can accept would be effective. "The other side" is using the media.


The other side is presenting bogus science papers and indoctrinating everyone in their path. It is the blind leading the blind. Guys like Haz and Ivan are using media to speak truth to help prevent others from being swept into their vortex of lies.

As Michael Ellis said in his interview with Ivan, and I'm paraphrasing here, at some point it isn't about dogs anymore; it is about them and how they view the world.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I mean mainstream media.Look how popular Cesar Milan became. It's just a thought I had.On the other hand, those guys probably wouldn't care to deal with the investigative reporters digging up something embarrassing from when they were 11 years old or something when they became a household word


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

dogma13 said:


> I mean mainstream media.Look how popular Cesar Milan became. It's just a thought I had.On the other hand, those guys probably wouldn't care to deal with the investigative reporters digging up something embarrassing from when they were 11 years old or something when they became a household word











Sign the Petition


Cancel Netflix's soon released show: Canine Intervention - due to inhumane animal training




www.change.org


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> Sign the Petition
> 
> 
> Cancel Netflix's soon released show: Canine Intervention - due to inhumane animal training
> ...


Lol!Nope


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

BdeAngelo said:


> If someone wants to train force free it is easy to do and I've done it. Get yourself a large acreage away from people or go move to the woods and build an insulated dog house. Let the dog live completely free and feed it everyday and it will do it its own thing while sticking around and watching over its territory.
> 
> However, if you want to live in downtown New York with a civil and high drive dog you better bring your training to a higher level. And the truth is cookies and love won't cut it.


I have trained dogs to a high level force free, or as close as I could get to it. 2 dogs out of hundreds and they had the appropriate drive for it. Crazy food drive. Little prey drive. No aggression. Super pack drive.

One was a Mastiff. One was a bench bred lab.

The Mastiff never had a leash on it. It was just that kind of dog.

That means it works! Now we train all dogs this way! Very much NO. The vast majority of mammals needs consequences. I try to make it as fair as possible, but that's just how life works for most animals.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> Sign the Petition
> 
> 
> Cancel Netflix's soon released show: Canine Intervention - due to inhumane animal training
> ...


I don't know much about Jas. Do you know if he is a good or legit trainer?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

BdeAngelo said:


> I don't know much about Jas. Do you know if he is a good or legit trainer?


He is respected by a lot of good and successful trainers in various sports I’ve seen. His training seems to geared more towards pet people. Not that he can’t do or doesn’t do working dogs. There’s plenty of video that says he does. I just don’t think he does so competitively. He’s a very big Hollywood trainer with a lot of high profile clients. Not saying that’s good or bad, just saying.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> He is respected by a lot of good and successful trainers in various sports I’ve seen. His training seems to geared more towards pet people. Not that he can’t do or doesn’t do working dogs. There’s plenty of video that says he does. I just don’t think he does so competitively. He’s a very big Hollywood trainer with a lot of high profile clients. Not saying that’s good or bad, just saying.


Thanks for the video interview, I'm about half way through. He said he trained in Canada for a year with the West Coast Shutzhund club. He is also a Shutzhund and PSA decoy from his website.

I watched the following video yesterday and he talks a lot about dominance/pack theory, personally I don't have a problem with it, which makes him sound like a new age Cesar. Maybe that is part of the hollywood side - doesn't surprise me that the force-free are going nuts lol.


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## Quorthun (24 d ago)

BdeAngelo said:


> Thanks for the video interview, I'm about half way through. He said he trained in Canada for a year with the West Coast Shutzhund club. He is also a Shutzhund and PSA decoy from his website.
> 
> I watched the following video yesterday and he talks a lot about dominance/pack theory, personally I don't have a problem with it, which makes him sound like a new age Cesar. Maybe that is part of the hollywood side - doesn't surprise me that the force-free are going nuts lol.


Was on Dr. Phil last week as well.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> I mean mainstream media.Look how popular Cesar Milan became.


Well, there you have it lol.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

BdeAngelo said:


> Well, there you have it lol.


Like I said, I haven't turned on a TV in years. I'm obviously way behind in what goes on in TV land.It's gone downhill even more.So never mind


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> I mean mainstream media.Look how popular Cesar Milan became. It's just a thought I had.On the other hand, those guys probably wouldn't care to deal with the investigative reporters digging up something embarrassing from when they were 11 years old or something when they became a household word


Force free means Cesar won't be able to poke dogs in the ribs any more or make the "tss!" sound


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

BdeAngelo said:


> Thanks for the video interview, I'm about half way through. He said he trained in Canada for a year with the West Coast Shutzhund club. He is also a Shutzhund and PSA decoy from his website.
> 
> I watched the following video yesterday and he talks a lot about dominance/pack theory, personally I don't have a problem with it, which makes him sound like a new age Cesar. Maybe that is part of the hollywood side - doesn't surprise me that the force-free are going nuts lol.


I do like Jas. I think this interview is a jem.


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