# E Collar Methodology/Lou Castle



## Dutchy (Jul 8, 2018)

Hello everybody. In communications with a trainer and considering E collar training with them but I'm trying to understand it better since this will be first I would be using it. My dog's at probably an 80-90 % recall success rate, with the decrease being around other dogs. My goal is a 100 % off the leash trained dog by a year old. 


*Searches of the forum constantly mention Lou Castle and his website, however, his website is now down. Is there anywhere this information still exists? *


As I understand it, Castle's methodology is giving the dog a very low level shock when giving the command? Some posts mention it is different then Leerburg's methodology which has banned Lou Castle on the forums without kind words. But this board seems overwhelmingly supportive of Lou Castle's methodology.


Appreciate anybody pointing me to some good information so I can help understand the current methodology behind E Collar training.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I wonder if your own website would ban you, once you've run out of forums? Here's some reading that predates that other guy:

Dobbs Training Libraries

Personally, I'd put the collar away for now. Your dogs too young. You can accomplish more then you think without it.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Dutchy said:


> But this board seems overwhelmingly supportive of Lou Castle's methodology.


He was banned here, I don't think his methods have really been discussed on this forum since his membership was terminated.


----------



## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> I wonder if your own website would ban you, once you've run out of forums? Here's some reading that predates that other guy:
> 
> Dobbs Training Libraries
> 
> Personally, I'd put the collar away for now. Your dogs too young. You can accomplish more then you think without it.


This is great information, thanks! Mei has responded very well to the E-Collar training. I find myself rarely even using it lately, now that I mention it.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

He was banned because he couldn't play by the rules and not because of how he used the collar. Too bad his site is down. He was who I learned from. 



I attended two seminars with Dodds. If that was my only experience with the E-collar I never would have used one.


----------



## Dutchy (Jul 8, 2018)

WIBackpacker said:


> He was banned here, I don't think his methods have really been discussed on this forum since his membership was terminated.


That would explain why I couldn't find much recently mentioning him. Everything goes back to like 2016 and earlier.


----------



## Dutchy (Jul 8, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> I wonder if your own website would ban you, once you've run out of forums? Here's some reading that predates that other guy:
> 
> Dobbs Training Libraries
> 
> Personally, I'd put the collar away for now. Your dogs too young. You can accomplish more then you think without it.


Thank you for the information. I did a small overview and it looks like a GREAT resource so I've bookmarked it and will start reading through. And yea, I'm not rushing into anything. She's doing great, but want to become more educated about it. I definitely teeter back and forth on the topic.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't know Lou Castle, but there are some great threads in the archives which have lots of links to additional information. Here's a couple.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/100659-another-ecollar-discussion.html

You can also pull up his profile and see all the threads he initiated...


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

It's all fine and well to knock the man who is not here to defend himself, but considering the amount of work and time he donated to help people I haven't got much bad to say about him. I was a member of his site for a long time, and he was nothing but helpful and responsive. He exchanged dozens of emails with me and we chatted by phone several times while he was attempting to help with Shadow. His method worked beautifully until I screwed it up.
I didn't see anyone else offering to help.


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Agree with Steve. 
I used (still do for some things) an e collar with my pup at a young age at too high of levels per a professional trainer and it wasn't fair. She was too young to fully understand what I was asking and even if she understood my expectations weren't realistic for a puppy under 1.5. Sending an 8 mo old high drive pup to run with a Mal and expecting her to break for recall was unrealistic. Thank god I have a strong dog and didn't wreck her. I won't give the next one as much freedom and my expectations will be lower until the pup matures to 1.5-2 yo.

I've met Lou Castle, nice guy, talks a lot, I like the way my dog works better. I find his use of an e collar to be fair. He advocates initial learning in conjunction with a leash and low stim.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

You might also be interested in researching Larry Krohn. I believe his business is called Pak Masters.

I researched both Castle and Krohn before deciding on going with correcting for (disregarding) known commands. I was hesitant at first, however both of the gsds I've used e with have done very well with it. I've have/had two other gsds that I would not consider good candidates. Talking to a trainer that uses e collars, but not as the only tool in their toolbox might not be a bad idea, especially if your new to them. E collars are great tools used correctly, they can also create problems that weren't there before.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm definitely not Lou, but I've successfully used his protocols on a lot of dogs. If you have questions, please ask and I'll do what I can to answer them.

As Nigel mentioned, Larry Krohn is also a great resource. He has an informative YouTube channel.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Anyone know why lou's site is down. I only used his method to train recall. But it was very easy to understand and worked flawlessly.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Dutchy said:


> Thank you for the information. I did a small overview and it looks like a GREAT resource so I've bookmarked it and will start reading through. And yea, I'm not rushing into anything. She's doing great, but want to become more educated about it. I definitely teeter back and forth on the topic.


That shows your basic escape/avoidance training. Dog complies and learns the e stops, dog complies to stop the e, dog complies to avoid the e. The other basic use is what Nigel mentioned, a correction for non compliance of a known command. Dogs naturally understand the connection of a leash to you, or reward from you. Dogs don't understand what e is. You have to teach them what it is first, with either use. People can use it to finesse some things, create an association to something to stop it, lots of different things depending on the dog and you're skill at applying it.

But no matter what, its still going to come down to dog training. Concentrate on training your puppy and not on what tool you use. Its the behavior that matters.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I'm not a fan of using compulsion to teach behaviors, IME it is a poor and lazy way to train. I would not advocate the methods of using "stim" at any level to teach a dog to sit or recall. Sorry, his stuff is not for me. 

For the novices that are looking into this approach, please be aware that you causing discomfort at best and pain at worst to teach very simple behaviors. Low level stim is a nice way of saying discomfort. 

His methods may work for some dogs, but it is not the approach or methodology that I would use to train ay of my dogs.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> I'm not a fan of using compulsion to teach behaviors, IME it is a poor and lazy way to train. I would not advocate the methods of using "stim" at any level to teach a dog to sit or recall. Sorry, his stuff is not for me.
> 
> For the novices that are looking into this approach, please be aware that you causing discomfort at best and pain at worst to teach very simple behaviors. Low level stim is a nice way of saying discomfort.
> 
> His methods may work for some dogs, but it is not the approach or methodology that I would use to train ay of my dogs.


Have you ever trained a hound or other hunting dog? I agree with you 100% for most GSDs, and maybe nearly that percentage for most non-hunting breeds. But negative reinforcement was the primary method used for most all hunting dogs I've worked with...and it was very effective. So I'm curious Jim, are you saying this in general, or have you seen more effective training methods used on hunting breeds that I'm just not aware of?


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> That shows your basic escape/avoidance training. Dog complies and learns the e stops, dog complies to stop the e, dog complies to avoid the e. The other basic use is what Nigel mentioned, a correction for non compliance of a known command. Dogs naturally understand the connection of a leash to you, or reward from you. Dogs don't understand what e is. You have to teach them what it is first, with either use. People can use it to finesse some things, create an association to something to stop it, lots of different things depending on the dog and you're skill at applying it.
> 
> But no matter what, its still going to come down to dog training. Concentrate on training your puppy and not on what tool you use. Its the behavior that matters.


^^^This is sound advice.

As some others mentioned, I wouldn't have started out using Lou's method. That was until I started training dogs full time. Some dogs just are not motivated and his methods are what works for me in those cases. I will also add, that when I was having an e-collar training issue with one of my dogs a few years ago, I messaged Lou and he called me that very day, spoke to me for hours and really helped me out. At the end of the day, I'd find a trainer and follow their lead. Tools are only useful in the hands of those who know how to use them.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> I'm not a fan of using compulsion to teach behaviors, IME it is a poor and lazy way to train. I would not advocate the methods of using "stim" at any level to teach a dog to sit or recall. Sorry, his stuff is not for me.
> 
> For the novices that are looking into this approach, please be aware that you causing discomfort at best and pain at worst to teach very simple behaviors. Low level stim is a nice way of saying discomfort.
> 
> His methods may work for some dogs, but it is not the approach or methodology that I would use to train ay of my dogs.


 I would rather see someone using low level stim than a prong, choke or even a flat collar yanking and cranking on the dog. Stim is much less damaging to the dog. 
I never bothered with using stim to teach sit, down, or any other basic commands. If the dog doesn't sit or down it usually isn't a life threatening situation. Recall on the other hand is one of those things that if it isn't bomb proof could lead to a dog being killed. So using a little discomfort to guarantee he recalls is 100% worth it.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I should clarify that when I use Lou's methods I use them to introduce the collar to a dog that already understands sit, down, come, etc.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> I'm not a fan of using compulsion to teach behaviors, IME it is a poor and lazy way to train. I would not advocate the methods of using "stim" at any level to teach a dog to sit or recall. Sorry, his stuff is not for me.
> 
> For the novices that are looking into this approach, please be aware that you causing discomfort at best and pain at worst to teach very simple behaviors. Low level stim is a nice way of saying discomfort.
> 
> His methods may work for some dogs, but it is not the approach or methodology that I would use to train ay of my dogs.


I teach behaviors/positions using markers, with the exception of leash pressure with a prong. I reinforce and proof behaviors with the e-collar. 

I use Lou's crittering protocol for reactive dogs as well.

ETA: Lou himself suggests that you initially teach positions using other techniques.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> ETA: Lou himself suggests that you initially teach positions using other techniques.


Hey David, I must have missed that. All I remember was teaching with e and 5000 word multi quote rebuttals to any hint of disagreement.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey David, I must have missed that. All I remember was teaching with e and 5000 word multi quote rebuttals to any hint of disagreement.



LOL Yes. :surprise:


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey David, I must have missed that. All I remember was teaching with e and 5000 word multi quote rebuttals to any hint of disagreement.



That's what I remember too. And those multi quote rebuttals would often chop up someone's post into individual sentences, taking each remark completely out of context in order to rebut it, rather than responding to a paragraph in its entirety. 



And whenever people suggested that you don't need an e-collar for the beginning stages of training basic obedience, it was like he was on a mission to promote e-collar use as the end-all and be-all of training. Anyone who disagreed got the post dissection treatment. It was extremely tiresome.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

David Winners said:


> I teach behaviors/positions using markers, with the exception of leash pressure with a prong. I reinforce and proof behaviors with the e-collar.
> 
> I use Lou's crittering protocol for reactive dogs as well.
> 
> ETA: Lou himself suggests that you initially teach positions using other techniques.


I also use markers, both positive and negative. I teach with markers and pair with rewards. I also proof and reinforce with an e collar. I use "low level stim" a lot. However, unlike Lou, I do not use it to teach behaviors. 

I'm very sure we do a lot of the same things and use many of the same techniques. I have never read his frittering protocol. I have read about how he trains the sit and recall. That was enough for me.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> Have you ever trained a hound or other hunting dog? I agree with you 100% for most GSDs, and maybe nearly that percentage for most non-hunting breeds. But negative reinforcement was the primary method used for most all hunting dogs I've worked with...and it was very effective. So I'm curious Jim, are you saying this in general, or have you seen more effective training methods used on hunting breeds that I'm just not aware of?


No, I have never trained a hunting dog. I do employ some hunting dog training techniques for certain behaviors that I want to train, for example the stand and stay. I like the way the bird dog guys do directional send outs. It has some applications in what I do. I have trained with some bird dog guys and gotten some stuff. I was invited to a 3 day George Hickox seminar a few years ago. I definitely got a few things out of it, and a lot of stuff that I would not do. Funny, but was a "low stim seminar" or teach the dog to turn the collar off. Hickox used the e collar for teaching the most basic behaviors and he is a far more accomplished trainer than Lou. He was all about winning big prize money, $50-100K for a one day working trial. Not so much about the dog though, all about performance. I do not see the need to use an e collar to teach a dog to sit, go into a crate, down or recall. I certainly do not see the need for pet owners to try or attempt to train their dogs. Hickox wants to win big field trials and he is successful with the right dogs. Dogs that can handle all the pressure he puts on them or he is on to the next dog. He does pair a clicker wth the stim and rewards after stimmimg. Better than what some others do in their e collar training. 

Nope, I do not train hunting dogs. I do train high drive dogs to do a variety of tasks and not once in my patrol schools have I trained a behavior with an e collar.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > ETA: Lou himself suggests that you initially teach positions using other techniques.
> ...


Hahaha... You got that right! I'm a very strong advocate of his principle. I use stim as communication, which he advocates. It is discomfort, which is compulsion, but if the (right) dog understands the game, it moves really quickly into proofing and done. 

I have never (and I was around for the Leerburg battles) been a fan of his people skills online. He's an incredibly helpful guy on the phone, and is more than willing to help anyone to the extent of his knowledge. 

There are many a post I just couldn't force myself to read in full. 

That's a bold statement coming from me lol.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> I would rather see someone using low level stim than a prong, choke or even a flat collar yanking and cranking on the dog. Stim is much less damaging to the dog.
> I never bothered with using stim to teach sit, down, or any other basic commands. If the dog doesn't sit or down it usually isn't a life threatening situation. Recall on the other hand is one of those things that if it isn't bomb proof could lead to a dog being killed. So using a little discomfort to guarantee he recalls is 100% worth it.


I disagree that an e collar in a novice's hand is less damaging to a dog. I've taught some super good recalls and solid down out of motion with out an e collar. I've clocked Boomer at 32 mph on a recall. I never used a prong, e collar or choke chain to teach, train or proof that behavior. Give me two kongs and I will easily train a lightening fast and bomb proof recall. It just takes a little patience and time. The results are far more reliable and the benefits to the dog are way better. 

Really, the bigger issue is not the collar but punishing a dog for behaviors that it doesn't know, hasn't been taught, trained or learned. To me, this is very unfair. I've seen many people do this over the years with choke chains, prongs and e collars. Their results were never all that great IMO and all their dogs lacked because of it. 

The other problem that novice's have with using an e collar to teach a behavior is the impersonal nature of the correction. Rather than correcting with a leash and collar which requires effort to be effective, they can push a button and get a good correction. These same people would think it was too harsh or cruel to apply the same level of correction with a choke chain or prong. Take the novice owner who then gets frustrated and starts to crank up the collar because they are not getting the results that they expect from the magic button. Add in punishing or stimming with no praise or reward as Lou recommends on his site and it is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Dutchy said:


> Hello everybody. In communications with a trainer and considering E collar training with them but I'm trying to understand it better since this will be first I would be using it. My dog's at probably an 80-90 % recall success rate, with the decrease being around other dogs. My goal is a 100 % off the leash trained dog by a year old.
> 
> 
> *Searches of the forum constantly mention Lou Castle and his website, however, his website is now down. Is there anywhere this information still exists? *
> ...



I have no idea why his site is down, but I do have his email if you like. Since this thread is turning into a mess I can pm you the email if you like.

I dislike people who find it acceptable to attack people who do not have the ability to defend themselves. Since Lou is banned he can't speak for himself and I find it offensive that personal attacks on him are being allowed. I believe that if people have an issue with his methods they don't need to use them, but some of these comments are crossing the line.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think there are really good points from both sides.

I would never use e collar stim to teach a behavior to my own dogs either. But there are plenty of pet dogs who are just not motivated to come when called or are so motivated to run (agree with whoever said hunting breeds) that nothing else is going to work, especially in the amt of time an average pet owner is willing to dedicate to it.

Sometimes those dogs can get a reliable offleash recall and then have a way better life and in that case I think it is totally worth it.

I did e collar proof my own dog around 1 yr. Maybe a little younger, I am not sure. 
He had a really good motivational recall. He was reliable in every situation except deer.

I did it a little differently with him than I have with others, on the advice of a trainer I really respect. It worked out great. Deer problem solved and no other issues. That dog is 3 and a half now and he is a totally solid citizen who can be called off deer and other wildlife reliably. 
This is the dog who when we were recently in an obedience trial, when I did the recall from stay, he did this absolutely adorable little hoppy leap as he started to run in to me..variations of his peel out to recall which I just totally love.

I think it is important to say my dog's recall issue was dangerous. That factored into the decision to use e collar and do it when I did. Plus having access to a really good trainer.

If the issue is other dogs though, I would not be so quick to go to e collar. Partly because you can control dogs and set up training scenarios where you can cause your dog to succeed. Partly because a superstitious association with another dog could be a game changer for your dog in a bad way.

Didn't OP say they have a trainer? And if they have a trainer, why look up how to use e collar online, let your trainer teach you.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Dutchy said:
> 
> 
> > Hello everybody. In communications with a trainer and considering E collar training with them but I'm trying to understand it better since this will be first I would be using it. My dog's at probably an 80-90 % recall success rate, with the decrease being around other dogs. My goal is a 100 % off the leash trained dog by a year old.
> ...


I don't believe anyone is personally attacking Lou Castle. His methods are controversial, as was his behavior on most online forums.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Pretty tough to have a topic about lou castle, and not mention lou castle. I'm glad he was/is very helpful to some folks over the phone, and its too bad his website is gone, if there were people that found it useful. I was always curious to see if he'd ever show a dog he himself had trained on it. Maybe someone with a better relationship with him then some, could share a link?


----------

