# Help breeder issues



## nmlvaio101 (Apr 28, 2011)

My father got a dog from the same breeder i am going to and the dog turned out great. the cost of my puppy (mother was imported from the czech) is 1500, i payed 500 when i met the mommy of the puppy. (never met the dad, she was bred to male before shipment to u.s.) when i went to visit i gave her the deposit she wanted which was the 500 (by check) and now she is saying the remaining 1k has to be in CASH... she is saying i can not have my puppy unless i do cash.
is there a way to get my puppy and do a check because i like to track where my money is going, i do not pay anything with cash...
julie..

this is what she sent me;
Julie,

Iam sorry I only except cash payment when you pick the pup up if this is not exceptable to you than I will return your deposit.

Iam sorry but this is the only way I have always done for the past 20 years.


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## nmlvaio101 (Apr 28, 2011)

heck, she does not even know the difference between accept and except!


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

A bank certified check should suffice. If she is only willing to take cash and not a certified check, I would be very leary and probably want my deposit back. Sounds a bit shady to me.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Unfortunately I do understand this. I'm sure many a breeder has had a check bounce and the pup already gone. I've never bought a pup that I did not have to pay cash for...

Maybe you could visit at 7 weeks and confirm your pup, and drop the check and pick up your pup once the check has cleared? Or ask for a receipt?

*ETA- Yes a certified check would work also I would think.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't see what asking here is going to do. She's the breeder, her rules.
Sorry, but I would want cash as well. Checks can bounce (not saying yours would). Not worth the hassle if you ask me.


And what does her spelling have to do with anything?


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## SuperNova (May 1, 2011)

I do not trust banks, so I pay EVERYTHING in cash, so I do understand where she is coming from. When I sold my pups I would not take checks as then I have the cash in hand in exchange for the pup. No fear of checks bouncing. 
Maybe if you want this pup just pay cash and write it down and keep a record of it.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

There's a lot of places that don't take check including stores because so many people write bad checks. Ask if you can do a cashiers check instead. If you don't want to do it this way, she did give you the option of getting your deposit back.


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## nmlvaio101 (Apr 28, 2011)

like my father has a dog from her, and he paid for him in cash. I think that she is just trying to evade taxes... i just really want this puppy, i just really don't want to pay cash, i am sure when she bought ambra from the breeders in the czech they accepted a check... why is she being a hypocrite...


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## nmlvaio101 (Apr 28, 2011)

JKlatsky said:


> Unfortunately I do understand this. I'm sure many a breeder has had a check bounce and the pup already gone. I've never bought a pup that I did not have to pay cash for...
> 
> Maybe you could visit at 7 weeks and confirm your pup, and drop the check and pick up your pup once the check has cleared? Or ask for a receipt?
> 
> *ETA- Yes a certified check would work also I would think.


I understand that too, but she knows everything about me, my address and such. She talks to my dad all the time and they have become ok friends. and the last check i gave her cleared with no problems... i am not supposed to get the puppy for 4 more weeks and i sent a check through my banks online bill pay (usaa) and it was supposed to arrive the 5th. funny thing is she said when she recieves the check, she will hold onto it and return it to me when i give her cash...


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

It's her litter and her rules. Give her cash or walk away; it's that simple.


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## SuperNova (May 1, 2011)

Who knows why she wants cash, but she wants cash and won't take a check and there is not much you can do about that. Why don't you want to pay in cash? Just write it down and keep it with your bank records. 
It's a catch 22, get the dog and pay in cash. Or keep the cash don't get the dog.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

I agree, her puppy, her rules.
Write a check to "CASH" for the amount of the balance, make a notation on the check what it's for and cash it. It's not exactly what you want, but it's better than nothing. You still have the option to walk away and get all your money back.

Five years ago, I could go out almost anywhere and and write a check for services, a meal and several other things. Now, I haven't written a check in many months. It's a fact of life that people don't accept checks any longer. If I were a business person, I wouldn't take a check either.
I'm sure it has nothing to do with taxes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Write yourself a check for $1000 and put on the comment line, Puppy. 

Next, take it to the bank and cash it. 

Next, take cash to the breeder and pay for the puppy. 

You have attacked this person's spelling and her character. If you do not trust her, do not do business with her. You have called her a hypocrite, but she has let you know in advance to bring cash. Ya know, that is actually very nice of her. Many breeders expect cash. 

There is the bounced check or the stop payment on a check that people do.

There is that annoying little thing banks like to do if the check is not drawn on their bank, of holding the check for a week before clearing it, so you can use the funds. 

If you do not have an account, then they CHARGE you to cash the check. 

Why should a breeder deal with that. 

And another little note -- the person I purchased my import from required a wire transfer, no personal check was going to work. He had the money in his account before he would breed her.

I think you are being unfair and unrealistic with your expectations. 

If you ask for a bill of sale, then she will have to claim the dog on her income, expect to bring more money to pay sales tax. Here that is 6.5%, and on $1500 that comes to about ninety some dollars -- your cost.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

lisgje said:


> A bank certified check should suffice. If she is only willing to take cash and not a certified check, I would be very leary and probably want my deposit back. Sounds a bit shady to me.


I agree - I would do a certified check and if she doesn't agree to that then you probably should just take your deposit back...


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Honestly, I would never expect a breeder to take a check. I have cash in hand when I pick up a puppy. I wouldn't take a check if I was selling a horse. Same thing.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> There is that annoying little thing banks like to do if the check is not drawn on their bank, of holding the check for a week before clearing it, so you can use the funds.


You're right - banks do place, often times unreasonable, holds on checks. 

However, having worked at a bank for over five years (I no longer do) I know they do it based on a number of criteria.

Things/reasons banks will place holds on checks:
- Account history. For example, does your account have a history of bounced checks, overdraft fees, etc. If you have a poor account history the bank is more likely to place a hold. 
- Amount of check relative to your average account balance and previously deposited checks. If you tend to keep a low balance and deposit only regular work checks then if the breeder deposits several $1000 checks on one day the bank will be very suspicious of that transaction. If the transaction is out of the norm for deposits then it's likely that will raise flags. 
- Where is the check drawn - is it the same bank? That helps, but not entirely. 
- Is the check local or out of state? Locally it helps but - there are always other factors too. 

I do remember, at the bank I worked at (large bank), there are ways to get a hold released -sort of. 

- If a manager approves it they may be able to, at their discretion, release a part of the amount - usually about 10% of the check amount. 
- In really dire emergency situations funds can be released - usually only the amount absolutely needed at that time and if you have a good account history. 

Holds are tricky. They are placed, almost always, by a computer system that just scans account history. Sometimes they are placed by managers or tellers. 

Often times the bank WILL receive the full money from the other bank before the hold is released by the bank. This happens ALL THE TIME. 

After working at a bank I hate banks - they must be some of the most corrupt companies ever. If not the most...

I do still feel that a certified/official check should suffice but I know cash may be your only option. I would call and ask - it can't hurt. 

My big concern is having an adequate paper trail for the transaction.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Ask for a receipt as well.

We take checks, but we ask for the balance 1 week prior to pick up/ship of puppy. This is to ensure that the check clears.

We do receipts (offer if they would like) for deposit and final balance. 

Do you have a contract for the puppy that shows how mush you paid?


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## SuperNova (May 1, 2011)

Couldn't have said it better myself. Comepletely agree.




selzer said:


> Write yourself a check for $1000 and put on the comment line, Puppy.
> 
> Next, take it to the bank and cash it.
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The breeder should provide a bill of sale, and a contract. These can be the same item or separate items, they should suffice as much as a check for a paper trail.

Once the breeder accepts a check and give over the puppy, that is it. The puppy buyer can call the bank and stop payment on that check while sitting in your driveway. At that point it is a civil matter. Instead of being GRAND THEFT. The police will not do anything. You will have to fight with the individual for either your dog back or the money, and spend money in court costs and fees. 

Everyone has sympathy for the puppy buyer who has trouble getting their papers, or who has a medical condition, who has an unresponsive breeder, who is over their head and wants to return the puppy, who wants their money back even if the contract says that they do not refund cash. But there is little sympathy for the breeder who gets stiffed by a customer. If anything, they would burn the breeder for not screening the buyer better. I mean, if the breeder did a home check, vet reference check, credit score, trainer reference check, and called each of the 18 personal references required, they would have found out that this is someone who likes to get things for free.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

We sell our old used things all the time and will only accept cash and pickup only. For each serious buyer, you get 10 others offering to send you a $4,000 check for a $200 item in some sort of con attempt. 
Also, if a check bounces, it's a lot of work to track down the buyer. Banks have 6 months to figure out that the check was fake, it if was, the seller is on the hook. 
If you pay with anything other than cash, it's just another thing to go wrong.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am all about cash! Some banks charge a fee if you cash a check...I won't go to someones bank to be sure the funds are in their acct and pay a service charge to cash their check. 
I paid cash for my pups. 
If you have a good relationship with the breeder(which everyone should have before even thinking of purchasing or selling) then cash payment should be safe. GET a receipt and staple it to your contract.
Bartering is best, if you can do that, then no tax has to be paid! Cleaning kennels an option, LOL?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSD_Xander said:


> I agree - I would do a certified check and if she doesn't agree to that then you probably should just take your deposit back...


Nope. More people are forging certified checks. It's cash or nothing for me. The last time I sold a car, the buyer and I went together to their bank and they withdrew the cash from their account. They gave me the cash and I signed over the car. 

I don't take anything but cash anymore.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I've never had an issue paying the balance in cash. Usually you get a receipt or something that shows you paid.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is. If paying by check is that important to you then don't plan on buying a puppy from most breeders. Keep your money and be puppyless. You are making a big issue over nothing and I think the breeder has been more than fair with you. I've bought 3 pets from breeders in the last 2 years and paid the balance in cash on all of them. Are you scared the breeder will claim you didn't pay in full or what? Sounds like there are trust issues and maybe you should just get your deposit back and walk away.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I paid for my puppy in cash.
Perhaps she wants cash because she is running her business "under the table," and doesn't want a paper trail.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I paid for my puppy in cash.
> Perhaps she wants cash because she is running her business "under the table," and doesn't want a paper trail.


This does not work either. If you got papers with your puppy, then there is a paper trail to you. If the IRS came to you and said, how much did you pay for the German Shepherd Puppy purchased on MM/DD/YYYY, you would tell them. 

If a breeder is running it as a business, they have to keep good records. If they are not, if they are selling a single litter, they usually consider that casual sales. If they are doing a long form and writing off expenses, and they have documentation saying they had 20 puppies in 2010, they will have to have documentation for each sale, etc. 

Chances are good Mr. IRS man will not come and ask you, but they could. 

Anyhow, there should be a contract or bill of sale. It is not worth it to sell pups under the table. Not registered pups. If you are selling labradoodles for 1800$ each and nobody knows whether you have 5 or 14 in your litter, I suppose you can try to get away with it.


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## Ava (Mar 18, 2011)

There are many legitimate businesses that do not accept checks. The ones that do are turning high volumes of transactions and have the means to collect on the majority of the bad checks. The checks they can't collect on are built into their business model. If you write a check at Wal Mart, they scans the check and withdraw the money at checkout.

Legitimate, quality breeders are a low volume business and their is little is any real profit. They are not Wal MArt. Bad check collection is expensive. It could take a couple litters to cover the cost of a single bad check. Cash is king, scams are everywhere. 

I have sold maybe a dozen items in the past couple of years on Craigslist or the newspaper and would only accept cash. Money orders, bank checks, cashiers checks - all of it is just too easy to fake. 

To me, the breeder was pretty straight forward - if you must to pay by check, buy a pup from someone else. Really nothing to complain about and their position is completely reasonable.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I have only bought three puppies over the years. Paid with check each time. No questions, no hassle - I didn't even think about it.

However, the breeder in this case will only take cash for the final payment - That's that.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I never accepted checks or money orders for puppies or horses. Too easy to stop payment or falsfy money orders/cashier checks. I have bought all my puppies for cash, my horses for cash and my last horse trailer for cash.
Its not my business what somedoes with the money I give them, if they want to do a business under the table to avoid taxes, that is their problem.
I honestly do not see why this is an issue. If you have the money to buy the puppy go withdraw the cash and buy it. Like suggested, write your self a check and put what it is for on the line, then you have a paper showing what the money went for.
Doesn't matter if she knows you, your dad or where you live, like most sellers of just about anything these days, cash is what is asked for.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

These days, I would prefer to pay in cash (or anything but a personal check, if allowed) because I prefer not to give a "stranger" any of the information that is contained on check. 
I've seen firsthand what someone can do with "check washing" or by getting access to the account and routing numbers on my check.
It's unreal how saavy some criminals are about stuff like this.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Cheques are a PITA. Not only does the seller/breeder get dinged when its NSF but by the time they find out the pup is long gone.

I used to think, if I get a puppy shipped, do these breeders actually think I'm going to send cash through the mail? Are they nuts?

Now, I've moved onto thinking, I don't care where I get my pup from, I'm going to fly/drive to pick him/her up personally. So there is no need for anything but cash.

Incidentally, the only local business I know that take cheques, take VOID ones to set up pre-authorized payments.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I pd for Djibouti with checks but he was pd in full months before I actually got him. IF the breeder hadn't been ok with that I would have gotten her cash. I suspect if I'd pd whrn picking him up or shortly before she would have wanted cash.

Some yrs ago I participated on the eBay boards. It's amazing the trouble people ran into with checks bouncing weeks after being submitted, MO & cashier's checks which were fraudulent, transactions that were reversed looong after the seller thought it was a done deal. I can certainly understand people who have a hard line 'cash only' policy.



> Everyone has sympathy for the puppy buyer who has trouble getting their papers, or who has a medical condition, who has an unresponsive breeder, who is over their head and wants to return the puppy, who wants their money back even if the contract says that they do not refund cash. But there is little sympathy for the breeder who gets stiffed by a customer.


I really don't get why you feel this way. I think most of us like, admire & respect the breeders we got our beloved pups & dogs from. I don't think I'm alone when I say that I deeply appreciate those who are dedicated to breeding sound, healthy, long lived dogs. My life has been enriched many times over by the love, loyalty & companionship my dogs & cats have provided. Good breeders are an absolute treasure.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

If they are not, if they are selling a single litter, they usually consider that casual sales.

Actually a person must file taxes on any self employment income in excess of $400, so even one litter of puppies a year would be enough to meet this requirement. Also, it would not be unheard of for a breeder who is selling puppies with papers to attempt tax evasion, you'd be amazed at what people will do. The IRS doesn't go around inquiring at the AKC for papers on pups, and then contact owners, to see how much they paid, and who the breeder was. You would have a one in a million chance of being caught this way. Even if you were, if the payment for the puppy was made in cash, it would be your word against the buyers in regard to how much you sold the puppy to them for, they'd be no proof.

True, many legitimate businesses do not accept checks for many other reasons, which have been mentioned by others here. I was just offering a different possibility.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've paid for most of my dogs with a bank check or money order or wire transfer..I've had to since these were dogs that I bought site unseen.

If you want this dog bad enough, I agree it's her rules, as long as you get a signed dated receipt there should be no problem.

If paying cash is the only reason you don't want this puppy, well then move on and go elsewhere, atleast she's telling you if you don't pay cash, you can have your deposit back vs losing your deposit..

I guess it boils down to how bad you want that puppy


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I paid for both of my puppies with a personal check at pickup day but asked if that was OK. I would have been fine using whatever method the breeder wanted as long as I knew in advance, especially with Pan since we drove 2 states over and couldn't exactly withdraw that much cash from the ATM ($500 limit no?). When I mailed the deposit for Pan I sent it certified mail so I got a receipt that it was received.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Ours did accept a check for the security deposit, but cash for the remaining balance. No big deal-her rules, her litter. My contract states I paid cash & the amount signed by the breeder.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I guess my breeder and I don't have trust issues, I paid by check, deposit and the remaining balance. 

I do not carry cash, I probably have less than 5 bucks in my purse. I use my debit card for everything. There's no way I'm going to have that much cash in me from Texas all the way to MI.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Can you ask her if she will take a check if given before the puppy is picked up. I would get a reciept for that, in writing, contract, whatever. You said you could go over at 7 wks. Pay for it then, then pick up after the check has cleared. If you are so set about paying by check, that would be the ONLY way I would take a check for a pup. My neighbor has breed beagles for 20+ yrs. Used to accept checks, until they started bouncing and were out the money for the pup and the bounced check fee. 

I have only had one privious litter, all paid in cash. No one asked if they should bring cash or check. They just paid with cash. Cash and carry. Their receipt is their contract that we both have signed.

Many breeders operate this way. It is not unusual. It is the norm.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

People need to remember that cash is money! What is so strange about asking for cash?

As a business owner, I love when people pay cash. Goes straight to the bank, no card processing fees..no item fees on my statement.

Quit funding the "gangster/banksters" pockets...use cash.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> If they are not, if they are selling a single litter, they usually consider that casual sales.
> 
> Actually a person must file taxes on any self employment income in excess of $400, so even one litter of puppies a year would be enough to meet this requirement. Also, it would not be unheard of for a breeder who is selling puppies with papers to attempt tax evasion, you'd be amazed at what people will do. The IRS doesn't go around inquiring at the AKC for papers on pups, and then contact owners, to see how much they paid, and who the breeder was. You would have a one in a million chance of being caught this way. Even if you were, if the payment for the puppy was made in cash, it would be your word against the buyers in regard to how much you sold the puppy to them for, they'd be no proof.
> 
> True, many legitimate businesses do not accept checks for many other reasons, which have been mentioned by others here. I was just offering a different possibility.


If you are not running it as a business, had one litter, are not claiming expenses, etc, then I do not see how or why the government would charge you for selling your property. In Ohio, for a single litter it is considered "casual sales" so you do not have to pay sales tax on that. I do, because I am claiming expenses and such. And yes, I do have to claim each puppy sale.

I do not think they WOULD check, but if they audit you and they see a serious discrepancy, like for example lets say you are single: 

Income 1 = $12,000 -- part time sub contract position
Income 2 = $1200 -- litter of puppies
Expenses:
home office 20% of utilities ......................... $2800
Dog Food.....................................................$6000
Vet................................................................$4000
Training.........................................................$1000
Grooming......................................................$1200
Shows,fees,etc..............................................$1000

I do not even have to go on here, there is NO way you could cover these expenses on what you are bringing in. So unless you have a lot of savings, that money is coming from somewhere. Your chances of being audited go way up if you are reporting less incoming than outgoing. My understanding is this can be uncomfortable, and in the least, you would probably have to reclassify it as a hobby. 

There are good reasons to be able to run it as a business, as a business you can subtract your expenses and whether or not that leaves you in the black, you are not paying as much income tax on the puppies if you are able to subtract out for their food and vet bills and other expenses that you incur. 

But if you run it as a business, then you better have good records. If you are taking cash and not providing a bill of sale, I suppose you could then go in and write out a fake bill of sale in your receipt book, I think you will probably even get away with that. But, again, you have to prove that it _is_ a business, and if you are bringing in significantly less than what is going out, eventually that is going to bite you.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Selzer-If it was classified as a hobby, any profit gained would have to be included in your taxable income. And any losses from this hobby could only be deducted to the extent of income generated from this hobby. The IRS looks at very specific things when determining if it is to be classified as a business loss or limited to the hobby loss rules. If it's classified as a business then there is a very fine line between what you can and can't claim as deductions/write offs when it comes to breeding dogs. For example the home office that you mentioned is subject to a whole set of rules in itself to determine if it even qualifies for a home office. If the room is used in any manner whatsoever besides for running the business, then you can not allocate any portion of the rent/expenses, utilities, etc. as a deduction.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know, and my sister who is a JD, MBA, CPA does my taxes with me every year. 

My in home office was built for the dogs and is used for nothing but the dogs, the only storage in there are the kennel sun screens and whelping supplies. 

I think most people who have just one litter do not classify it as either.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you really feel the need to report that income, then you would be dumb to report crazy high expenses that exceed that income. Most reputable breeders, with websites, and well known names, will probably not hide their income, there's just no way of hiding that they are running a business, and it is beneficial to expense all of the food/breeding/showing costs. But as for the cash issue, I paid a deposit in check and the rest in cash, its a pretty standard practice.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I groom dogs and hate when they pay with a check, if I want to chance it and deposit in my account, then find it bounces, I am out the money. If I want to cash at a bank I don't have an account in, I have to pay a fee. And if the check is bad, then I have to hassle calling the person, driving to their house, getting cash and then have to get extra money to pay for the bad check charges.
At the vets we would prefer cash, using a cc or debit card costs us money. When someone pays with the check for what we have done from inexpensive vaccinations to major surgeries, they can write a check, walk out the door with their dog alive and healthy, and then either stop payment or having written the check on a closed or overdrawn account, we have to chase them down, take them to small claims court, attach wages or just be out the money. 
I prefer cash for most everything and don't see a breeder asking for cash as a problem at all.
If you want this puppy as much as you said, just pay the cash and be done with it. I would not pressure the breeder to much saying" you know me, you know my dad" yadda yadda because she could just hand you back your deposit and say"never mind, I will sell the puppy to someone else who doesn't object to paying cash."
The ball is in your court, pay in cash or forget the puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> If you really feel the need to report that income, then you would be dumb to report crazy high expenses that exceed that income. Most reputable breeders, with websites, and well known names, will probably not hide their income, there's just no way of hiding that they are running a business, and it is beneficial to expense all of the food/breeding/showing costs. But as for the cash issue, I paid a deposit in check and the rest in cash, its a pretty standard practice.


It is not a matter of feeling the need to report income, it is the law. Some of us still follow it. However, if you do make a legitimate loss, it can bring your overall income tax down. Like it or not, this particular business -- and it IS a business, even if it does deal in live animals -- takes a lot of capital/initial investment, and it has a lot of current expenses as well. And it is ok to put out more than you have coming in, you just have to have answers and paperwork ready for that in case you are audited. 

I may not like the idea of being audited, or having a higher risk of being audited. But at least I have everything documented and have not done anything untoward. If I was not providing bill of sale, and reporting different numbers, I would be a nervous wreck. No thanks.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I know breeders that will only take cash. As stated because checks bounce, I am sure she will give you a receipt. I do not understand what the big deal is, hand her cash get your receipt and your puppy.


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