# Sticky  The Fat Lady has begun to sing



## Vandal

I wrote in another thread:


> Quote:The weak show lines who look hurt when they are hit with a stick will be the example used to demonize and further weaken the SchH test, just like the structure of the show dogs is making these documentaries possible.


and here is the example I am referring to. 2009 Sieger Show "bitework":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10-bn34-2fE&feature=channel

BTW, I feel quite sorry for these dogs. Apparently, someone gave these people the wrong directions to the dog park. 
If they really intended to be there, all the handlers in this video need a swift kick to their head. You have to be one MEAN person to put dogs like these in that situation.
Oh, and the judge needs a 2x4 to_ his _head. Maybe it will create the needed adjustment to his brain.


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## GSDBESTK9

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> BTW, I feel quite sorry for these dogs. Apparently, someone gave these people the wrong directions to the dog park.

















I saw that video Anne, it is so sad.


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## Fangz

While watching I had to pinch myself a few times to see if I wasn`t hallucinating.

It was saddening to see, painful even.


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## Elaine

That was pathetic. I felt so bad for the third and fourth dogs as they were cowering before they ever got to the helper. These were clearly dogs being bred for show and pet homes and not bred for sport.


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## Dainerra

the 3rd lady should have been looking embarrassed!! 1254 I think her number was.. when the dog got to the blind, it just looked confused

the next one, I don't know enough to judge. the dog looked like it had a good bite, after it got going at, but the next second seemed to be cowering? until it ran away at the end anyway.

and the rest just.... wow...
the dog that wouldn't out and then ran away.. a couple of them seemed to be more wanting to play with the sleeve and then with the stick were like "what the *censored* is that???"


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## cliffson1

If a person bred a dog with crippling dyplasia there would be an outcry of indignation, should not there be a cry of indignation from these same people about crippling temperament???? No soapbox today because its construed as "bashing", however I only want to make this point that is very very important and factually cannot be denied. 
Every one of these dogs that went VA or high V in this show are very very closely in/linebred on the same dogs as the dogs in the video. If you can't connect the dots fom there there is a visual impairment.


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## Effie325

Interesting to be certain. The only dogs I have seen doing these exercises before this video were working bred GSDs and Dutch Shepherds and Malis.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I could not get the thing to download well at work so just saw the first dog. Look like the dog was happy to heel in but as soon as the dog was pressured it lost courage.

A workmate was watching over my shoulder out of curiosity and she knows nothinig about dogs and her comment was "that dog looks scared".


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## JKlatsky

Wow.


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## Branca's Mom

Now Now.... I am sure that the dogs are <u>Wonderful Examples </u>of the breed!!! What happened was there was a rumor going around that this _totally Incompetent_ helper stepped on the toe of one of the dogs that went first and each dog was being extra careful not to get there little tootsies mashed..... You do realize what kind of crippling pain that can cause don't you? Can't blame a dog for being extra careful on keeping their distance from that horrible helper can ya???











This is SO MUCH WORSE that what I saw even 10 years ago at the sieger show!!! 
*Infreakincredible *


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## Liesje

OMG the bitework this year is making me sick!!! Aaaaah!!! And even more sick are the _excuses_ people are trying to throw around. COME ON! This is the biggest event of the year for them, they have had years to prepare. If they choose to present THAT to the world then I do not think the criticism is unfair, at all.

Look at the ones in the video that won't engage and then spook at at the judge!


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomNow Now.... I am sure that the dogs are <u>Wonderful Examples </u>of the breed!!! What happened was there was a rumor going around that this _totally Incompetent_ helper stepped on the toe of one of the dogs that went first and each dog was being extra careful not to get there little tootsies mashed..... You do realize what kind of crippling pain that can cause don't you? Can't blame a dog for being extra careful on keeping their distance from that horrible helper can ya???


Are you serious? Keep digging people, come on...

I've stomped all over my PUPPY during bitework! A few weeks ago, I stepped on his tail (didn't know) and heard this sound like tearing fabric as he lunged for a run by, looked down and there was a huge chunk of his tail on the floor (and a one inch gap on his tail). Oops, I guess he should be scarred for life then huh?

I have also stepped on Kenya's foot during a Dog Sport competition. She did give a yelp, but recovered, we passed the obedience phase (and placed).


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## Chris Wild

Yes, the rumored excuses I've heard thus far have been...

Incompetent helperwork (because he actually put a tiny bit of pressure on the dogs.. not a whole lot, but more than has been seen at most Sieger shows...) And all that foot stomping and hitting them in the head with that horrible *padded* stick (nevermind if their heads had been where they were supposed to be.. on the sleeve.. not a foot away... that wouldn't happen).

Bad days... apparently there was a rash of lots and lots of dog there having a "bad day". Must be something in the Ulm water....

Well, they were out of practice and weren't prepared, after all it's not like they do this often. That's why other dogs of other lines are so much stronger. Nothing to do with genetics or temperament, they just get more practice. Uh huh... "SchH3" dogs who need more practice? You're not preparing your dog for the premier show in the world? Riiiiiiiggggghhhhhhttttt......

Heads come out of the sand, excuses are tossed out, and heads go back into the sand. <sigh>











> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1If a person bred a dog with crippling dyplasia there would be an outcry of indignation, should not there be a cry of indignation from these same people about crippling temperament????


So very, very true.


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## Freddy

That is an embarrassing example of people trying to title dogs to make their pups sell. At my club those dogs would have needed more work before they went for their Sch1. The only dog that bit was dirty on the sleeve.

Looked like some pretty house dogs there!


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## Branca's Mom

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> Are you serious? Keep digging people, come on...


But, Of Course I am serious....


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## Liesje

It's embarrassing and disturbing. Look at their faces, they just kind of laugh and smirk, like they don't care at all that they just made a total mockery of themselves or that they are basically abusing their weak and untrained dogs by exposing them to that.


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## Branca's Mom

I really am shocked at how much worse things have gotten since I went to my first Sieger Show. I laughed back then, but I had no idea how bad it could get, I wouldn't have believed that a dog as pathetic as 3 of those I just watched would ever have the nerve to show their dogs at the Sieger Show!!! 

The people who brought these poor dogs into the stadium can not - not see - what is going on. Even if they make up excuses and lie to everyone else, they have to see and know themselves how pathetic it is.....


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## Catu

But the worst part is the the title of the video is that the HELPERS are the ones who made the dogs to work so bad


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Branca's Mom
> 
> The people who brought these poor dogs into the stadium can not - not see - what is going on. Even if they make up excuses and lie to everyone else, they have to see and know themselves how pathetic it is.....


Oh they know, they know. They either just don't care, they think they are above it, or they have a dog that will "pass" (not do like the dogs in the video) and truly think that their dog IS good (maybe they have only ever "trained" with show people? Only buy titled dogs? Never attended an actual SchH competition?). 

There is this VA dog that a few people were bragging up to me, saying how well trained and serious he was, so I watch him and see the dog with a shallow grip, no power at all (just kind of "hops" onto the sleeve) sliding almost off the sleeve, glancing around at the handler and crowd instead of guarding. Yet the team applauds and the handler and owner are so pleased because he passed, and I'm thinking "are these people for real?" and have to hold my tongue. I'm a noob to the SchH/bitework stuff but even *I* can see plain as day that this dog is mediocre on the best day.


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## crackem

disgusting. I can't believe I even watched that.


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## Branca's Mom

There are some good show dogs out there. A Sieger used to come train at my house, he was a nice dog. His son seemed to be a nice dog too the few times I saw him. The owners wanted him to do well and put in some effort to train before trials from what I saw.

I used to love the show dogs, and still think they are pretty. I do hate where they have headed though. They are no longer (for the most part) what I consider a GSD to be.


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## crackem

i've seen a number of good showline dogs too. The problem is nobody in the "show" crowd seems to care about those dogs. They dont' have the right color or the right pedigree to be bred to. It's not that there aren't good show dogs out there, but for a number of reasons they never get to the prominence that these pet line dogs do.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomThere are some good show dogs out there. A Sieger used to come train at my house, he was a nice dog. His son seemed to be a nice dog too the few times I saw him. The owners wanted him to do well and put in some effort to train before trials from what I saw.
> 
> I used to love the show dogs, and still think they are pretty. I do hate where they have headed though. They are no longer (for the most part) what I consider a GSD to be.


Headed? Seems nearly rock bottom to me! Not only the lack of quality but the attitudes of the breeders and exhibitors (I think the latter bothers me the most).


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## BlackGSD

All I can say is wow, just wow. (And not it a good way.)


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## Xeph

.......Ew.

I know there are good show lines out there, but that was sad x.x

I can't believe the judge let the first dog start over


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## WiscTiger

As a fancier of the pretty red/black dogs, I will say that any one who is in doubt that there are two distinct GSD's coming out of Europe needs to look at this video. 

I can't help myself I do like red/black dogs, but not sure if I will purchase another showline. Temperament has always been important to me and I don't like what I saw. Since I am not a SchH person I have some trouble telling a good grip from a bad, but when the dog ducks it's head to miss the sleeve and is cowing on the way to the helper that is just too much.

Another thing and maybe it is just me, but I am seeing more and more showlines that don't have good powerful physical drive. Instead of a good charge to the helper they are loping along, I know it has to do with never, but I also think there is a physical aspect.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger Since I am not a SchH person I have some trouble telling a good grip from a bad...


Good grip: Dog has sleeve in mouth SO FAR, it looks like it is going to swallow it. Look at the pic of the Mal Ruq posted this morning in the "SchH pics not Jethro" thread. (And the pics of Jethro in his thread.)

Bad grip: barely has sleeve in mouth at all, often only barely hanging on by the canine teeth.


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## WiscTiger

Tranks Tracy, so then maybe I am wrong, a dirty grip is the dog mouthing the sleeve and not a continious grip?

See I told you I was uneducated.


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## Liesje

Val it's not just physical condition and conformation, it's the dog's drive, whether he is committed to taking that bite, etc. There is a great deal of temperament/drive involved, I think it is more this than their physical condition. I was just watching a video of a big, (IMO) fat GSD doing the same thing and even to my inexperienced eyes I could see that even though not in top physical condition, he was really going at it, committed to the bite, and once he locked on the sleeve his grip did not falter. 

I asked my TD about this same thing b/c that is also what I was seeing, the dogs start out looking pretty serious but then they either lope along, or they charge to the helper but then come almost to a screetching halt and sort of hop onto the sleeve. He said the problems are training AND temperament. 

I think there are good show dogs but the difference is that like others have said, they are always overlooked for breedings, overlooked for top placements, so why would they spend all the time and money to enter this show only to be placed at the end? I like show lines too and I have one (that I show and do SchH with) but I doubt I would ever fly him to Germany for a show like this, not after what I've seen (not just this show either). I don't regret getting him, I love showing him and working him, but my priority is not simply getting a VA rating. I would never, ever in a million years enter my dog in a show or a koer if I had any expectation that he would perform like these dogs in the video (in fact I would not even do SchH with such a dog, I think that is cruel). For me it wasn't about having a "working" dog or a "show" dog I wanted a dog that I could do pretty much anything with and that is what I have.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerTranks Tracy, so then maybe I am wrong, a dirty grip is the dog mouthing the sleeve and not a continious grip?
> 
> See I told you I was uneducated.


I don't know all the psychology behind bad gripping, but as far as I understand, basically you want the dog to launch at the helper, grip hard and full (like the sleeve is crammed up to his throat, you aren't seeing space between the sleeve and the jaw or seeing all the teeth), and keep that same grip calm and firm (like not ripping at the sleeve and writhing around like a fish). If the dog truly does get a bad presentation they should still re-engage to get a good grip and hold that grip. So far at the Sieger Shows I've been to in person, I see mostly shallow grips and/or the dogs slipping off the sleeve. Someone else would have to explain why that happens/what is going through the dog's head.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Val I am not a Sch person either. But having seen that dog clearly afraid was pretty obvious to me too. even to the co-worker looking over my shoulder who does not even have a dog.

Very sad. i too love the look of the showline but I am seeing more adn more with poor temper. I am really leaning toward a working line next time. I also know when I wnat the next pup but will adjust based on the breeding I want instead of when I want the dog like I did with Havoc. That is not a diss on Havoc(who is agreat showline dog) or his breeder.


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## Jason L

Wow, that video is truly cringe-worthy. I think my rescued GSD mutt can do better ...











> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI was just watching a video of a big, (IMO) fat GSD doing the same thing and even to my inexperienced eyes I could see that even though not in top physical condition, he was really going at it, committed to the bite, and once he locked on the sleeve his grip did not falter.


Lol, I'm getting a pup in November and your line reminds me of pictures and videos I have seen of the sire.

http://www.daelenberghutte.be/zaskp.htm


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## WiscTiger

Not defending just wondering:

Is it possible that some of the dogs just had an off day. Hey they don't care if it is the biggest GSD show, they are still dogs.

Is it possible that on some dogs the training was too hard - too fast. You don't see showline people holding off and letting their dogs mature mentally like you see with many working lines.

Is it possible that the economy is hurting puppy and dog sales and some breeders are putting less time training and working?

From one video you can't tell me the answers to the questions can you honestly?

Do I think that some Showlines breeders are on a slippery slope, yes. Are there breeders in Germany drive but the Euro, yes. Are there some breeders in Germany who aren't on the slippery slope that have nice dogs that are not VA.


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## BlackGSD

Jason, You are getting a Zasco pup? I am SO jealous I can't even speak! (I REALLY like that dog for some reason. HAve for a while now.)
I just LOVE his long bite. He hits like a freight train! None of the running down the field then slamming on the brakes before launching onto the sleeve like so many other dogs do. (And a lot of those dogs are high scoring dogs!)

Who are you getting your pup from?


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## Vandal

> Quote:Tranks Tracy, so then maybe I am wrong, a dirty grip is the dog mouthing the sleeve and not a continious grip?
> 
> See I told you I was uneducated.


Regarding grips; there is a reason they are important and it says more about the dog than how much he wants the "prey item". I am posting my response from another list where the question about the hardness of the dog's grip in herding was discussed. The question was whether a dog's grip in hearding can ever be too hard. Maybe this will help explain why those in the know look at this aspect so hard:



> Quote: I can't answer that from a herding standpoint but I think I can as a helper/agitator. I have owned and worked dogs with tremendous grips. The best ones I have worked were the ones who would escalate the power of their grip depending on what the helper is doing. You always want a dog who comes on the sleeve full and hard but when I say hard I guess what I am referring to is a grip that is firm like a vice. The dog gets on the sleeve and it is that way immediately. You feel not even the tiniest adjustment and can feel the pressure thru the sleeve. These dogs seem to "know" they have control with this grip and therefore do not "try" another one or shift to see if maybe THAT will work better. They are so confident, again, they seem to know nothing else is needed . No thrashing to try to get the upper hand, no punching into the helper...just that really powerful grip. However, if you turn to fight the dog, they will bite down harder and maybe torque the sleeve once to establish that they are still in control. These "good dogs" that I am talking about also do not get rattled or over excited. They remain composed and seem to do all the right things whether the helper is fighting and driving the dog or trying to escape. They escalate to just the right level although never without power.
> Many of the dogs I worked and am working currently have herding lines a bit closer in the pedigree and these are the behaviors I see in these dogs. I would think this kind of grip and behavior is desirable for herding and I am pretty sure I read that here.
> 
> The undesirable dogs , IMO, are the ones who come onto the sleeve with a really hard grip but then you can feel the pressure come and go for no real apparent reason. I always want to question the nerves when I see this and I do see it more in the dogs that are excitable. They don't seem to understand that their grip can control the helper and they therefore shift it in what I consider, an attempt to find one that does. They do this too quickly IMO. Why does the dog move to a different grip when there is no reason for it. The other thing they do is fight with the man everywhere, whether the helper is confronting the dog or turned away in a flight position the dog is always thrashing the sleeve. I find this behavior not at all appealing, ( means to me the dog lacks confidence), and it will lead to problems with control and outting later on. I would also think this would not be a good dog for herding since he would damage the sheep."


I was not talking about show lines in that post, I was talking about dogs who have the drive and ability to do protection. However, I think you can read that and then get an idea of how wrong things have gone with the show dogs and why the grips are like they are, (even in the dogs that stay on the sleeve), and what triggers some of the other behaviors they are doing .


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## BlackGSD

Is it possible that some just had a bad day, I guess anything is possible.

BUT of the first 30 dogs to go, 11 FAILED! That is close to half. I find it hard to beleive that THAT many dogs had a "bad day" on the SAME DAY.


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## Anja1Blue

LOL Anne! I'd volunteer for the 2 x 4 to the judges' head....

Here is a link I posted on another (associated) thread on this Board. It's for those people who will appreciate what a real courage test bite looks like (and as someone said elsewhere, if you compare it to the travesty at the Sieger show are you even looking at the same breed?) These are the dogs of the 2007 Weltmeisterschaft...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_9s8KArXM

_____________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Branca's Mom

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerNot defending just wondering:
> 
> Is it possible that some of the dogs just had an off day. Hey they don't care if it is the biggest GSD show, they are still dogs.


I can't answer the other questions, but this is definitely NOT "JUST" an off day. No way, no how. This was pathetic. So far beyond pathetic that I felt really really bad for the dogs that had way too much put on them. How much pressure was applied before I don't know but the dogs couldn't handle it..... It makes me sad for the breed and for the individual dogs and sad that these dogs were entered HOPING that they "might" pull it off. It makes me mad at the owners and trainers and the JUDGES who allow this to continue. But, mostly just sad for the poor confused, pressured, cowering dogs. Its wrong just plain wrong to throw dogs into situations that are too much for them to handle.


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## AbbyK9

That was just sad.

Looking at this video, I think I would have a pretty good chance taking my Abby, who has little interest in the sleeve (but can be wound up enough to get a bite) and get a SchHIII on her under those judges and alongside those dogs. She would not do much worse than most of the dogs in this video, at any rate.


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## Vandal

> Quote: But, mostly just sad for the poor confused, pressured, cowering dogs. Its wrong just plain wrong to throw dogs into situations that are too much for them to handle.


I certainly agree and I posted a similar response on the dreaded "Green Board" earlier today saying just that.

I used to find what was happening simply disgusting but things have now sunk to a new low....(who would have ever thought THAT could happen?).....where the dogs are REALLY paying the price for the behavior of these IDIOTS! Sorry, that is what they are. Those people are lucky I was not standing at the gate as they made their exit.


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## Barb E

People wonder why some call Schutzhund a game, if a person's only bite work exposure is dogs like in that video...

I've never particpated in Schutzhund, never been to a trial (hope to change that this fall) but even I can tell there is something seriously wrong.


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## BlackGSD

Another comment to the "off day" question.

If that were the case, I would imaging that the handlers would have been SURPRISED at the dogs behaviour on the field. I got the impression watching the video that they were NOT in the least shocked that the dogs behaved that way.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: But, mostly just sad for the poor confused, pressured, cowering dogs. Its wrong just plain wrong to throw dogs into situations that are too much for them to handle.
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly agree and I posted a similar response on the dreaded "Green Board" earlier today saying just that.
Click to expand...
















Bet they LOVED that!!! lol


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerNot defending just wondering:
> 
> Is it possible that some of the dogs just had an off day. Hey they don't care if it is the biggest GSD show, they are still dogs.
> 
> Is it possible that on some dogs the training was too hard - too fast. You don't see showline people holding off and letting their dogs mature mentally like you see with many working lines.
> 
> Is it possible that the economy is hurting puppy and dog sales and some breeders are putting less time training and working?
> 
> From one video you can't tell me the answers to the questions can you honestly?


Yes, a dog can have a day off, but look at how many dogs failed the protection test, and then add on how many passed with laughable work. They couldn't ALL be having bad days, not to mention they've had years to prepare for this, it should be *easy*! They all get a practice round on the show field with the helpers.

Yes, some dogs are trained too hard and/or too fast. That happens a lot. Or a dog that is nicely trained is sold or leased to someone who wants to make a little known V dog into a VA dog and BAM the dog is now crawling in it's heeling, biting to escape pressure, etc and a dog that was a decent dog is now ruined (I've seen such a dog in person).

I don't buy the economy argument. That sounds like a really good (as in bad) excuse. The people that really care about the sport and the working temperament are making sacrifices in other areas of their lives in order to maintain the quality of their dogs and their breeding. I know people who are scaling back on how many dogs they breed, how many they keep back, using cheaper foods, etc but they are still working their dogs and making that the priority.

Not from this video I am answering, but from the other Sieger Shows I've been to in person, all the other club and regional WDA/USA shows I've been to and exhibited in, all the conversations I've overheard (as an "official" photographer I often sit in the ring, next to the judge, and I listen to all the comments that are made off the record in German), everything I've learned so far from my TD and the others more committed to sport than to show.


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## Brightelf

Val, what I will say is this: Showline folks over here sometimes (not always) send their dogs away to be titled. Even when they conscientiously train and title the dogs themselves, the main focus still is not sport. They go casually to the club, but showing/daily living oftentimes ranks higher in priority. Basicly, the pups are raised as pets from day one, with showing being the priority. Nothing like dogs (from any bloodline) raised from day 1 of puppyhood with sport as the priority.

Compare this with someone raising a showline puppy in Germany purely for sport. HUGE difference-- HUGE. From day one, that puppy is raised differently, because the goal is sport. ( you actually do see that over here, people who have both showlines and workinglines and do sport as their main focus with either line) A friend in Coburg's showline dogs are also selected for sport by her, and they are a harder dog with stronger nerve. Several others in her club have showline dogs and their main focus is sport. Raising from day one to do sport means a dog with different expectations, different capabilities. 

I'm saddened at (some of)the examples here showing clear genetic nerve weakness.

But, I'm also shocked by the extreme lack of preparation for doing bitework when the owners knew it would be done at this show.

*I am, however, not astonished that dogs who are raised to rarely if ever go to the club don't respond like dogs (from any line) who eat, drink, and breathe the sport from day 1 of puppyhood. No surprise to me there.*

I can understand not having a dogsport lifestyle for these dogs from puppyhgood on, but, if you KNOW you will be competing in front of people with the dog-- investing more time might prevent such clear unpreparedness.


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## Wildtim

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerNot defending just wondering:
> 
> Is it possible that some of the dogs just had an off day. Hey they don't care if it is the biggest GSD show, they are still dogs.


No. Some dogs can have an off day. But if you look at the attitudes of the dogs they aren't, you can tell. even more telling is the background noise. When a dog in that caliber of a trial has an off day you even if uneducated can tell something is off by the muttering of the crowd. that isn't the case here.



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> Is it possible that on some dogs the training was too hard - too fast. You don't see showline people holding off and letting their dogs mature mentally like you see with many working lines.


 Also possible but I know if I were spending the kind of money required to reach this level I would train correctly and allow my dog to show to its best ability, after all I'm advertising for future stud fees here. If they are rushing training it is only costing them money, and frankly they are to money hungry to let that happen.



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> Is it possible that the economy is hurting puppy and dog sales and some breeders are putting less time training and working?


When you are unemployed or can't afford a vacation, etc. you have plenty of time to train and play with your dog, this is no excuse.




> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> From one video you can't tell me the answers to the questions can you honestly?


Yes. Of course it isn't just one video, it is several years of videos documenting a path a blind man could see.



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> Do I think that some Showlines breeders are on a slippery slope, yes. Are there breeders in Germany drive but the Euro, yes. Are there some breeders in Germany who aren't on the slippery slope that have nice dogs that are not VA.


Possibly, but you have never heard of them, and neither have I, we probably never will. If they are show lines, and not VA they don't get the breedings. It is human directed evolution in action these are the VA dogs, they get the breedings, things get worse, thats they way it has been happening for a long time now.

A disclaimer: I couldn't watch the whole thing, I ate recently, and needed to turn it off if I was to keep anything down, as it was.....


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## Jason L

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDJason, You are getting a Zasco pup? I am SO jealous I can't even speak! (I REALLY like that dog for some reason. HAve for a while now.)
> I just LOVE his long bite. He hits like a freight train! None of the running down the field then slamming on the brakes before launching onto the sleeve like so many other dogs do. (And a lot of those dogs are high scoring dogs!)
> 
> Who are you getting your pup from?


Tracy,

Yea, I'm getting a Zasko pup from Rinus Bastiaansen himself. I'm a little worry about the whole international shipping thing but maybe it's because I absolutely hate flying myself and can't imagine what it will be like to be boarded up in a crate for 10 hours. Then again I fly economy so maybe I do know what it is like


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## Branca's Mom

Your puppy will have more room than you would in an economy seat!! Next time you book a flight see if you can book yourself into a size 700 crate....


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## Liesje

bwahaha a 700 is more space than I have on my own bed after DH and Coke...anyway...


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## BlackGSD

That is just awesome Jason. Can't wait to see him/her.

Puppies and dogs are shipped all over the country and WORLD everyday with no ill effects.

(Though I hear you about hating to fly! Since I don't HAVE to anymore, I DON'T. If I can't get there by car/truck I DON'T GO!)


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## Vandal

> Quote: But, I'm also shocked by the extreme lack of preparation for doing bitework when the owners knew it would be done at this show.


I realize it is really hard to remember this fact when you watch those dogs but.....*they are all SchH 3 dogs.* Every SchH 3 dog I have ever owned would perform an attack out of the blind and courage test even after years of not working. Lets not continue to try to blur the reality here. Yes, it is a people problem but it is more about the absolute disregard for temperament in their breeding decisions that has turned what was once a very prestigious event into a farce.


----------



## BlackGSD

Anyone know of a link to a video/videos of the dogs that "supposedly" did well?


----------



## Vandal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiNsP4FDO3k

More on You Tube but not the best quality. This dog is obviously a working line dog.


----------



## mysablegsd

What is the "dreaded green board?"


----------



## Vandal

It is a place mostly populated by show people. A place far from reality where you can believe whatever story you want to believe as long as it makes you feel good.


----------



## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: VandalIt is a place mostly populated by show people. A place far from reality where you can believe whatever story you want to believe as long as it makes you feel good.


----------



## WiscTiger

What I meant by driven by the Euro, is declining puppy/dog sales putting less effort into the whole program.

Long time ago a friend told me to watch what would happen to GSD's once many German's with deep pocketbooks feel in love with Reining horses. She said GSD's were passion and finance. She felt that the GSD's would become in some cases finance to support the new passion.

I guess I can't see how anyone with passion would be proud of producing some of the dogs on the video. Doing the minimum to keep the dog and kennel bringing in money would make more sense in some cases but not all.


----------



## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Vandalhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiNsP4FDO3k
> 
> More on You Tube but not the best quality. This dog is obviously a working line dog.


Ya think!









Dog in videos ped. 

Thanks for the link. I saw a few others individually. Wonder if there is one with multiple dogs one it like the "bad one". Course it would likely take several doys to compile a "deceint dogs only video! So they haven't had time yet!


----------



## BlackGSD

If anyone is interested, here is the VA1 dog from this year and last. This is a video of his "chomp the heck out of the sleeve" work from last year.









Granted, better than the ones that failed, but STILL pretty bad IMO.

Vegas video


----------



## lhczth

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: But, I'm also shocked by the extreme lack of preparation for doing bitework when the owners knew it would be done at this show.
> 
> 
> 
> I realize it is really hard to remember this fact when you watch those dogs but.....*they are all SchH 3 dogs.* Every SchH 3 dog I have ever owned would perform an attack out of the blind and courage test even after years of not working. Lets not continue to try to blur the reality here. Yes, it is a people problem but it is more about the absolute disregard for temperament in their breeding decisions that has turned what was once a very prestigious event into a farce.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Anne, for making this point. We are always hearing this excuse and it is just that, an excuse.


----------



## WiscTiger

How much time would you guesstimate it would take to get a dog back in physical condition from being a couch critter and studly man to being in good condition and brushed up on his training to get ready for a big show?

Val


----------



## BlackGSD

IMO, if the dog is THAT good, about 5 minutes! (Providing you are talking about getting ready for the "protection phase".)


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Tim Wild
> 
> No. Some dogs can have an off day. But if you look at the attitudes of the dogs they aren't, you can tell. even more telling is the background noise. When a dog in that caliber of a trial has an off day you even if uneducated can tell something is off by the muttering of the crowd. that isn't the case here.


Good point. The crowd noise says a LOT, not just about the individual dogs but about what these people consider acceptable, even praiseworthy.

When a dog has a "bad day" and does something unexpected, makes a big mistake, or isn't acting up to par, especially a high profile, famous dog with a big reputation, the crowd sounds like Mudville after Casey strikes out. 

The cheering on these videos makes it quite apparent that these people are seeing exactly what they expect to see, if not something even *better* than they expected to see. That is very sad, but also very telling.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerHow much time would you guesstimate it would take to get a dog back in physical condition from being a couch critter and studly man to being in good condition and brushed up on his training to get ready for a big show?
> 
> Val


For the show or the bitework? Like Anne said, any *real* dog can do these bitework tests even as a senior who hasn't trialed in years, as long as they are not crippled. I really don't think physical condition is any more than a marginal factor.

For the ring portion, that takes considerably more conditioning, since at a Sieger show (at least the smaller ones I've attended in the US), the working line classes can take an hour or more. However I will say the most out of shape dog I've seen in a working class was a young working line dog, SchH1 at the time now SchH2. The dog looked fine (to me) but by the end was frothing at the mouth and making these deep heaving sounds while panting like how a dog sounds with kennel cough, people were whispering "what's wrong with that dog?" It wasn't an exceptionally hot day, and it was not a national show so the class didn't take that long. It was weird.

As far as "brushing up training", well that assumes the dog was trained properly in the first place, which for many of these dogs is the crux of the issue...


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## GSDextrodinaire

Every time a Sieger Show comes around, no matter what country, I cringe in agony over what I know will happen each time. I admit there is always a tad bit of hope in my heart that a dog, a black and red dog will show itself to be truly deserving of the title Excellent Select 1 Sieger. Each time I find myself disappointed but each time, slightly less disappointed than the last show. 

This year I admit I had more hope that maybe, just maybe one of the working line dogs would place high in ring one. By high I mean take a VA spot. Oh that would make me so very happy!!! I am told that will most likely not happen in my life time. But hope springs eternal. 

Each time there is a sieger show, I read the posts of GSD enthusiasts as they find excuses for poor performance tests. It's always "enlightening" to read those who have never actually put an honest title on a dog tell the rest of us how the dog did poorly because the helper put too much pressure on, didn't present the sleever correctly ( I find this translates to shoving the sleeve at the dog in hopes the dog will take the hint and bite), and then of course there are the accolades sent across the internet to the owners of the dogs that place in the VA catagory. Ah, these are always so interesting. This dog is spectacular, his progeny group speaks for itself, the progeny are strong, gait exceptionally etc etc etc. 

I use to find myself feeling embarrassed for those who presented dogs who didn't do well, and more so for those people who presented dogs that SUCKED and yet the crowd cheered like the dog had found the cure to cancer. These people slap the sides of their dog, raise their arm in triumph, thinking they have THE dog. Sadly, you then see the dog getting more excited because it realizes it is FINALLY leaving the area where it is forced to either do his handler's bidding or run from the threat of that padded stick.

Even more sad than the bite work videos we see each year are the progeny parades at the sieger shows. This year what I have seen so far is by far the absolute WORST structure in young dogs I have EVER seen! Remember progeny helps place dogs into the VA catagory. If what I saw is truly a representation of what the breed is becoming in structure, it is truly worse than ever before. The majority of the dogs I saw were one step away from the AKC shepherd in structure. There wasn't a good topline to be seen. I did note in a couple V males and females some very nice toplines...I am sure that will be bred out of them soon.

Each year many people proclaim their outrage over performance tests, and dogs that are given pronounced when clearly the dog should have been escorted off the field as a fail. Each year I have been told nothing will come of complaining about the lack of temperament in the dogs that place well. Why? this is the way it has been for a decade or more, nothing will change. Of course nothing will change as long as people continue to accept this as normal and say things like, "let the show people have their venue, it doesn't affect us." That quote we have all heard, maybe not those exact words, but the jist is the same. 

Has everyone had enough now? are people willing to stand up? are you willing to put your good name out there and push for a change like some of us have? or are you willing to only discuss the continued downward spiral? If you are willing CALL your UScA regional breed warden and the UScA National Breed Warden Tim Burke and say your peace! send them email and demand a change. The German Sieger Show is not the only venue where this deplorable type of situation occurs. It is an ongoing problem in the USA sieger show and the NASS. 

As I have stated for a long time now, this is NOT a show dog situation! this is a german shepherd dog situation. As owners of GSDs we should be outraged at what continues to dominate the GSD world. Outrage isn't enough though. You NEED to either put up or sit back and accept the consequences of your inaction. I for one will continue to push for changes (following the rules is always a good start). To constantly hear "you can't fight city hall" just makes me work harder. Better to stand for what's right than to sit back and watch what's wrong continue to thrive. Better to try and fail then to admit defeat without even trying.


----------



## Liesje

Dee, it's just frustrating when some of the people who are at the top of the organizations and making the decisions ARE the ones whose dogs are getting free passes and who are wining and dining the judges.... *sigh*

I suppose I can write a letter (in my case to the WDA) to at least say my piece and get it off my chest, but I'm just *one* exhibitor with *one* dog and having limited time, resources, and money, honestly I'd rather just continue focusing on training and do a show here and there for fun than get all wrapped up in the politics and idiocy that has become the Sieger show. I just don't have the extra time or energy to be hounding them about this stuff that is already blatantly obvious.


----------



## GSDextrodinaire

You may be one exhibitor with one dog but you are still a voice. 

What some don't seem to realize is that at some point whether you have a show line dog or a working line dog you are going to enter an SV style show ring to earn a rating in order to get the breed survey. Some may not ever enter a sieger show with their own dog. But unless you voice your concern and disgust to the right people in the right positions, then complaining about it on a forum will NOT benefit the breed. I may never make it to a world championship with one of my dogs but if the judging of the event or the rules were not being followed, I would strongly voice my opinion and concern to the correct avenue.

I am not targeting you, so please do not think I am. It is ongoing inactivity of voicing concern and demand for change that has allowed and promoted this travesty that affects ALL GSDs. In the time it takes a person to vent their opinion on a forum or many forums, an email could be written to the director of judges, the president of an organization, a national breed warden or a regional breed warden.

One letter, one voice, is how change is made.


----------



## Liesje

Well I just sent an e-mail full of nasty to the chair of our board of trustees at my work earlier this week, I am in a letter-writing mood, maybe this will be tomorrow's project....

ETA: I supposed I better remember to send in my dues and renewal tomorrow, lol!


----------



## BlackGSD

Dee,

I see what you are saying, My question is would it really make a nickles worth of difference if the people that are complaining aren't a "member" of the club they are complaining to?


----------



## GSDextrodinaire

Obviously, one needs to be a member of whatever organization they are directing their complaint to. This is why when the petition was begun over a year ago, for it to have any value at all people who signed needed to also put their UScA membership number on the petition.

With that said, I feel anyone who owns a GSD, who values the breed has a right to voice their opinion, whether they are a member of an organization or not. One would think anyone in a position of "authority" who is suppose to be a guardian of the breed would still welcome comments, although not obligated to respond...herein lies the measure of someone's dedication and devotion to the breed they say they are guardian of.


----------



## Vandal

I hate to be such a cynic but IMO, asking the people you mentioned to change anything is like asking Henry Paulson to regulate the big banks. Ain't gonna happen. There are huge numbers of people out there who have no, zero, nadda, desire to change anything. Every year we do the same old thing. Since the fat lady really is now singing, I expect that it will become more and more where people complain less and less, as this will be just the way it is....like the American Ring.
My complaint this year is not the same as in year's past, it is about putting those poor, neurotic dogs in the situation to be chased like that. As I stated before, anyone that had owned any of those dogs for more than five minutes, ( oh and titled them to a SchH 3...maybe that took an additional 10 minutes), had to know they could not tolerate that level of stress. That borders on abuse IMO and that takes things from the realm of just plain old disgust to anger. In other words, it makes me mad. So, that's what I am venting about since I am convinced that no show ring can EVER be of benefit to the dogs.


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## GSDextrodinaire

Anne,

Over the last few years you and I have had this discussion several times, with both of us venting our outrage. I understand your cynic direction. However, I have to believe that the "I'm mad as [heck] and I am not going to take it anymore" attitude can garner more change than the "why bother, nothing will change" attitude.

I understand your outrage this year. I fear exhibitions such as what was witnessed via video will be fodder for the extremists. Although that is not a reason to refrain from indignation, and anger. 

So, what do you think needs to happen in order for these types of exhibitions (dog entered at the risk of what little mental stability they have) to be, let's use regulated for lack of a better term?

I would like to see an MH test done on several of the sieger VA dogs. I wonder just how many of them would actually pass?


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## Vandal

I have no answer that will please the majority but if it were up to me, I think the whole thing should be banned, how's that? I sincerly believe this will not change. I am not just being a drama queen here, if I am anything , I am honest about the way I really feel about something. This is beyond repair IMO and should be eliminated. 

It is completely irresponsible to show dogs like that in such a huge public venue. Boy, they talk about being careful about correction devices that could be misunderstood by the general public so, the SV bans e-collars but then puts these types of dogs on display for all to see. To the untrained eye, it appears that the dogs have been abused in the training and the helper is hurting them. Of course, almost all of it is simply a huge lack of temperament but you would be hard pressed to try to convince people of that. Every time they show the dogs crawling in the heeling portion you hear all the comments, ( from people who are in SchH clubs ), that the dogs must have been handled roughly. I have to tell you that is not the case the majority of the time. It is genetic and some of that behavior can actually be caused from not correcting the dog ENOUGH. So, my point is, even people who see SchH a couple times a week don't understand, so, how in the [heck] are you going to explain these dogs ? THAT can affect all of us and that is another thing I find to be outrageous and yes, makes me angry. They should shut it down, that's how I feel...honest.


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## Liesje

Dee I tried to PM you but you are over the limit


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## Branca's Mom

What could bring about change is when people are laughed off the field by their peers. They need to feel complete humiliation. Embarassment is a huge motivation to change. As long as they are cheered on for this travesty they will continue.


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## Liesje

They are cheered by all the gazillions of people who bought puppies out of that dog. It's almost more of a sigh of relief/thank God type cheer (of the ones I have witnessed in person)


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## WiscTiger

Anne, 

Sorry I skimmed and missed that point. But I agree with you, I wouldn't put my dog in that position.

Now this is just an outsiders perspective but <u>at times</u> I think the rules cause people to put dogs in situations they aren't ready for. Just an example of a bitch I was looking at purchasing, she had her 1st breed survey, but needed the 2nd. I passed for my own reasons, but by the time she was sold she had less than a month to get use to a new owner and new trainer to get her 2nd survey done or wait and start all over again. See I would have been the dumbie and not pushed the time limits for the 2nd. I would have wanted time to work on our bond if she was going to be my first bitch I was going to breed, I wanted a momma dog that was going to trust me. But maybe that is why I have never had a litter of pups here.

Val


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: VandalIt is a place mostly populated by show people. A place far from reality where you can believe whatever story you want to believe as long as it makes you feel good.
Click to expand...


Same here!!!









I don't post there very often any more. I am not a Sch person or a show person, just an AKC sport person but it is pretty hilarious over there.


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## Vandal

...and....I will give the Americans credit, at least they knew better than to try to pretend their show dogs could do "protection work" or SchH. 

These are show dogs they should just trot,( or whatever that is they are doing), ....around the ring and leave the rest to dogs suited for that purpose.


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## Liesje

Yes, the rules do, *if* all you care about is showing/campaigning your dog. If you care about training your dog to his best, and titling him when he is ready, then you'll just have to settle for the open class and hold off on koer'ing.

It does







me off that the "working" class is 2 years, and that the open class (2+ yrs, no title) has been removed from big shows. At one of the shows I was at this summer, there was this really nice bitch, the judge really liked her and asked why she was stuck in the open class. The owners said they were still training for her titles. The judge rolled his eyes and scowled, as if they should be ashamed their dog was only a few months over 2 years old and not whipping through her titles. That sort of thing pisses me off.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomWhat could bring about change is when people are laughed off the field by their peers. They need to feel complete humiliation. Embarassment is a huge motivation to change. As long as they are cheered on for this travesty they will continue.


Maybe if a dog is run off of the field by the helper, and the HANDLER is banned/suspended from showing for a certain time period, they would try a little harder to make sure their dogs react appropriately!


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## GSDextrodinaire

Lies,

Sorry. That tells you how often I check my messages. I had pms in there from 2003. Empty now.

Anne, 

I have to agree with you and a few others who over the years have said, if the dogs can't do the simple performance test, then take it out of the Sieger Show and just let them run a ring for ribbons. 

I also think if the sieger shows were abandoned it would be a big boost to the breed as a whole. I'd cast my vote for it. I'd much rather trial my dogs on a working dog field, then have to prepare them for running a ring.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Finally was able to watch the whole thing. WOW, what a bunch of scary dogs, fully half ran off. Only one looked like it may have tried to engage the helper. If you are going to do protection at least have a confident, assertive dog that can stand up to the helper in its face.

What is up with the collar corrections as the dog is at the line and leash being removed? That would earn a quick excusal and stern lecture in the AKC ring. Is this allowed in Sch?


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## Vandal

> Quote: Is this allowed in Sch?


This isn't SchH, it's the show ring. There are no rules that are sacred, or can't be broken, in the show ring.


----------



## GSDextrodinaire

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Is this allowed in Sch?
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't SchH, it's the show ring. There are no rules that are sacred, or can't be broken, in the show ring.
Click to expand...

Isn't that the truth!!! I liked how the dog wouldn't out and the handler yanked it off the sleeve. It's all very sad!


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## Effie325

> Originally Posted By: Anja1BlueThese are the dogs of the 2007 Weltmeisterschaft...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_9s8KArXM


WOW! Now that's what I'm talkin' about. This gave me goosebumps. I want to work my dog after watching that!


----------



## mysablegsd

So, could someone post or pm me the link to the "dreaded green board?" TIA


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> What is up with the collar corrections as the dog is at the line and leash being removed? That would earn a quick excusal and stern lecture in the AKC ring. Is this allowed in Sch?


Yeah, awesome that the SchH3 dogs need a couple good pops just to get a "sit", huh?


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## selzer

I watched the Vegas vid and I thought it looked fine for a show dog. 

The protection phase is not what they focus on for their lives, as many schutzhund and working line dogs do. I know working line people that NEVER discourage biting because they are afraid that the dog will hesitate on the sleeve. The rest of the world starts discouraging biting before our pups reach two months old. 

I was getting a bit discouraged, but the I watched some working line dog in the WU SV Vid run away from the man with the stick too. I guess that dog had a bad day. 

As for the show lines not having stamina, don't they have to run along pulling for like four hours or so to pass the endurance test? 

I don't know, showline people can sit and watch your dogs work and criticize their top lines, and their structure. There seems to be a chasm between the two groups and what is reflected here indicates that that will not change. 

I like Vegas, I wish I could have seen Xara Vom Agilolfinger work, as that is the dam of the sire I used.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> The protection phase is not what they focus on for their lives, as many schutzhund and working line dogs do.


Schutzhund is THREE phases, for one.

Like Anne said, even an older or retired working dog who hasn't trialed in a long time could still go out, perform these tests, and put the other dogs to shame. It doesn't even have to be a focus to pass (but if these are the high V and VA dogs charged with maintaining and bettering the breed...why should it not?).


----------



## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: selzerI watched the Vegas vid and I thought it looked fine for a show dog.


To me that is a "cop out". That way of thinking is what got these dogs in this situation in the first place!

It souldn't matter if it is a "show dog" or not. They are supposed to be able to do the "work" correctly. Unfortunately most do NOT.


----------



## selzer

I am not an expert in the protection stuff. The dog looked fine to me. It did not show any fear, took a good bite, and let off when asked to. He was not looking around but guarded the dude and barked at him. When they sent him, he went off like a gun toward the guy. 

I looked at working dogs on the u-tube vids and they did not impress me any more than this guy did. In fact the one they killed the video because the guy waving the stick caused the dog to run off just like some of the few dogs shown in this vid.


----------



## selzer

The thing is this site seems to be disproportionately Working lines. Which is ok. But the one think the showlines have, our big party is the Sieger show. I guess you are all peeved because we consider it the top dog in the world, the World Sieger. 

Now I have a group of pups out of a Vegas/Xara son. I do not intend to sell ANY of them to schutzhund people. Yes I do know there are three sections to it, but the people I know are all worried about the protection phase and they focus on the protection phase. That is the absolute last thing in the world I am worried about. My dogs will discourage 98% of the bad guys out there, and the other 2% will just shoot your working line dog anyway. 

What is the point? Some of the dogs looked like they didn't belong there. I suppose that happens at every show everywhere. I am guessing it will happen at the Nationals next month. 

It sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. I am so disappointed that none of the working line dogs got any farther than they did. Look at the pathetic bite work.


----------



## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: selzerI guess you are all peeved because we consider it the top dog in the world, the World Sieger.


Are you serious with that comment?


----------



## Castlemaid

> Quote:It sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me.


Believe you me Selzer, this is nowhere, nohow sour grapes. This is not egos putting downt the show-lines in order to make themselves and their dogs look better. No way. There are no exagerations, and no un-called for criticisms, anywhere in this thread. 

A knowledgeable trainer can tell TONS about a dog from the moment the dog walks onto the field - dogs don't lie, their body language give them away. Training can only go so far to overcome a dog's lack of nerve and other issues. All those excuses are excuses that are made every year, every time, always the same excuses. They absolutely don't add up - they are a farce.

These comments in this thread condeming the sad state of affairs is from people who love, appreciate and understand temperament and the "working" part requirements of working dogs -whether they own and train working-lines or show-lines - dogs that are _supposed_ to have been bred to actually protect and save lives. 
EVERYONE on this board would just LOVE to watch the Sieger videos and be proud of EVERY single dog, but when one understands what standard is being evaluated, and how short of the standard the dogs fall . . . it hurts to see something you have pride in doing so poorly.

Sure, 99.9% of Joe Public, which includes you and me, don't need a dog that will protect for real - just a deterrent is enough, but to continue the breed and preserve it, we NEED those dogs that will do a protection test half-decent. I does no one any favours to pretend that the dogs are something they are not. 



> Quote:I do not intend to sell ANY of them to schutzhund people.


I don't think you need to worry too much about any of your pups going to Schutzhund people.







I'm sure you will find them great homes where they will be able to live un-challenged, stress-free lives.


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## selzer

My dad watched Vegas and Xara again, and we do not see your point at all. The dogs do the job. And the other link that sent the dog halfway to mars before engaging, it was put on, the guy was swinging the dogs around in a circle, every single dog. A different helper would have looked a lot different.


----------



## Castlemaid

The helper was doing a good job. I'm talking about the videos in general. I was commenting and making a point on the over-all comments of the thread bemoaning the embarassingly poor protection work of the show dogs in general. 

The dogs that came off should have stayed on the sleeve. Swinging the dogs is part of the mechanics of absobing the shock of the dog hitting the sleeve _ to prevent injury to the dog_. A different helper who does not do this may well have broken the dogs' necks. THEN you would have reason to criticize the helper. It would help if people who blame the helpers actually knew something about helper work. 

A confident dog grips strong and holds the grip: Pics of a _nine month old puppy_ being swung around by the helper, and never coming off, not even once, in any of the training sessions:










If a puppy can do it, I don't see why a SchH III world-class adult dog can't.


----------



## Xeph

Watching the 2007 WUSV dogs was quite amazing (w00t Ozzy Barnero!!!). The helper swings the dogs so they don't...you know....die x.x Can you imagine one of those lugs coming in at the speed they do...and then NOT being swung to absorb their impact?

Jammed necks and broken necks out the yang, and that's not good for anybody.

On top of that, the end of that video isn't dogs evading the stick....they just plain MISSED the helper, and went right back in for the fight.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: selzerMy dad watched Vegas and Xara again, and we do not see your point at all. The dogs do the job.
> 
> <span style="color: #FF0000">*But they do it crappily! That is the point!*</span>
> 
> 
> And the other link that sent the dog halfway to mars before engaging, it was put on, the guy was swinging the dogs around in a circle, every single dog.
> 
> <span style="color: #FF0000">*The reason the "guy" doesn't "swing the dogs around in a circle" in the videos of the show dogs you have seen is because they would go flying OFF because they aren't holding on to the sleeve hard enough!*</span>
> 
> 
> A different helper would have looked a lot different.
> 
> <span style="color: #FF0000">*This is not true. ALL of the helpers do it that way. Well that is except when the dog hits the helper so hard that the helper falls to the ground before he gets a chance to "swing them around".
> 
> 
> *</span>


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid.
> 
> It would help if people who blame the helpers actually knew something about helper work.


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## BlackGSD

Besides the dogs saftey being an issue if they aren't "swung around", imagine what would happen to the "guy" if he was hit OVER AND OVER by a dog running full speed and launching on him.


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## selzer

Did you see the Vegas and the Xara vids. There is no coming off of the sleeve the bite is good. They are not running away.

And I am talking about one of the dogs that is actually running away just like these show dogs in the vid this started with.


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## BowWowMeow

My interpretation of people's comments on this thread is that those dogs lack confidence, drive and physical fortitude. Their handlers also seem to be lacking in confidence and it shows in the dogs' lack of good focus and the necessity of collar corrections. Leaving aside their shortcomings in protection work, I thought the first dog was so slopey that he looked like he was going to fall down any minute! I had to laugh when someone suggested the dog park because my experience with American show lines through gsd rescue work is that their bodies gave out very easily--they couldn't even go for long hikes without problems.









My dumped on the street dog has a tremendous grip. He will stay attached (even if I lift him into the air) until I command him to let go and he has no formal training whatsoever. My first rescue was also like this.


----------



## BlackGSD

Here is another video of Vegas (from the 2007 Seiger show.) that is even worse. Notice the dog bites the helper on the LEG, they leaves him, comes back and takes a few more "dirty" bites. REAL nice!









Vegas vid.


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## selzer

Yes, look at the nasty one, saw that too. He did not win in 2007. 

So why should the dog only aim for the sleeve if it is for real anyway. I notice a lot of the dogs at another bite or two while barking afterwards. 

as for the showlines not having endurance, they have to pass an endurance test that outstrips what we do here for sure.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: selzerSo why should the dog only aim for the sleeve if it is for real anyway. I notice a lot of the dogs at another bite or two while barking afterwards.


It isn't "for real". SchH and the little "protection" stuff they do at the Seiger show is a ROUTINE. It is supposed to be done a certain way. Biting the helper on the leg is NOT part of it. Grabing the sleeve whenever they feel like it isn't either. The dogs are NOT supposed to that "cheap shots" at the helper no matter if it is a "show dog" or not.


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## Samba

What you see is the result of genetic selection. It is very difficult to breed a balanced dog. Drives balanced, good conformation, healthy, temperamentally sound. When breeding concentrates on one area to the detriment of others, it becomes obvious. Conformation or color chosen over drive or temperament.... and the slippery slope begins. 

It doesn't take someone who is an expert or a "lover" of certain lines to see the obvious. The people who are immersed in it are not likely to wake up one day and slap themselves on the forehead though. Everything will have to take its course and come to its natural conclusion....which is not going to be pretty. Einstein said, We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." So unless there is a new influx of minds and understanding in any group, little chance for change. Mutual stroking will just continue. 

Please, no one, accuse me of being a "working line" biased person. The absolute love of my life was a showline dog. Somehow that doesn't keep me from seeing the obvious issues. If you really love and want to understand an endeavor, you will try to be objective, critical thinking and proactive... not defensive.

When I watch this kind of group think, I wonder if enough people whispering "the Emporer has no clothes" would have any affect on the groupthink. Many people rely on it for a living so it would be about as easy to change as any established industry.


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## mjbgsd

Wow that is so sad to see dogs like this being bred.







I've noticed a lot of the ger. showlines are declining and fast and not just in temperament, a lot of females look like males, WHY??! They are suppose to be feminine, not masculine. No wonder I get so many comments about how good Isa's head looks because she LOOKS like a girl. It's just so sad and maddening to see dogs like those in the videos being put out into the public and showing them off as excellent dogs.











> Originally Posted By: LiesjeAt one of the shows I was at this summer, there was this really nice bitch, the judge really liked her and asked why she was stuck in the open class. The owners said they were still training for her titles. The judge rolled his eyes and scowled, as if they should be ashamed their dog was only a few months over 2 years old and not whipping through her titles. That sort of thing pisses me off.


That also makes me mad. I don't see what's so wrong with making sure your dog is fully ready to get their titles, why do we have to rush to get them?? My new pup is from DDR/Czech lines and he'll be a "puppy" for a long time, I don't expect to get his OB titles till he's about 3 years but I'm fine with that as I enjoy training my dogs, why rush it? Over my 5+ years in schH I've noticed so many schH people, especially the nationals, want dogs that grow up fast and want their titles NOW. Kind of sad as training is a joy, it should be fun for both handler and dog.


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## GSDextrodinaire

I am a german show line person through and through. I love them, and I hate them. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a black sable working line! I love any GSD that has the ONE thing the MAJORITY of the dogs in ANY sieger show lack....HEART! Heart is not something you create, the dog either has it or it doesn't. Vegas does not have it. Furbo does not have it. Zamp doesn't have it. In the US I know of only 5 show line dogs that have proven they have heart. I can count about 8 other show line dogs world wide that have proven they have heart. Heart is desire and commitment. The confidence the dog shows as it saunters onto the field, knowing full well, that whatever happens, the dog will meet it head on believing he will over come the obstacle. The constant tail wag of anticipation that the fight, although choreographed is about to begin, and the dog already KNOWS he will saunter away the victor. 

Sadly what we see with most GSL is the hesitation, the stutter, the bewilderment that the handler isn't there beside them ready to pull them away from the "threat" saving the dog. That is INCORRECT and it shows a lack of correct temperament. If a dog is fearful of a hit on the withers from a padded stick, that is downright WRONG! PLUS to continually place a dog in a stressful situation the dog cannot handle is wrong!! It isn't always a training issue!!! if one continually breeds for one particular characteristic (ie beauty) one will breed out the balance that makes the GSD a versitile dog.

As a breeder, color, and gait are the LAST things I look at when selecting breeding stock. Other than health, I want to see HEART and I want to see HEART in a big way!!! I want a puppy, an adult, with the confidence of Atlas. That is a GSD no matter the color.

There is no reason for ANYONE to be jealous of a Sieger Show Title. Years ago, Excellent Select really MEANT something. Now it means nothing!! VAs are handed out like tictacs. Rarely are the best balanced dogs placed in those positions. Breeders who continue to include sieger show "winners" in their breeding programs promote the downward spiral of the breed. All of this is done for the love of the almighty buck! and not because anyone is trying to back up their statement on their website, "improving the breed". 

What impresses me or would impress me, is to see a VA dog compete in a working dog trial with a working judge who has nothing to gain from the dog's pass or fail. To see that dog earn a real title and not one handed out would be impressive. Even if the dog was given "G's across the board. That would impress me.

As a breeder I strive to make sure any puppies from my breedings go to working homes, and NOT show homes. The dog is a working breed. The dog with the correct temperament NEEDS to work, WANTS to work and has the HEART to work. Breeding for anything else is not German Shepherd Dog Breeding. 

As Max said, "Efficiency for work must count for more with the shepherd dog breeder than the honours of the Show Ring.
The Queen of the Ball-Room is generally not a good mother."


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## cliffson1

Samba, you definitely have "Got" it. I have been preaching this deterioration for years will keep increasing in numbers. People say I am bashing the showlines....well people are bashing the showlines all over the world right now except for the places that don't understand or care about the functional part of the dog. Its genetics folks and guess what, next year will be a travesty again, not because Cliff said so, but because the same "genetics" that was put up this year will be intensely bred to, and you people will buy them, then defend them, and the spiral will continue downward. Now the emperor really has no clothes, but nothing will come out of this. As for the excuses, none of the workingline dogs had a bad day. None of the workingline dogs had bad presentation resulting in the dog coming off or not gripping full. These excuses are hogwash or else they would happen to all the dogs. People the pressure and helper work done in the seiger show should be able to be handled by any "normal" 12 to 18 month puppy. To even insinuate helper problems is baloney, you can SEE the lack of confidence in the dogs when a tiny pressure is exerted. The real villians in this saga, are the people who support and become silent thus continuing to provide a venue for these dogs to be bred.


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## AgileGSD

This really is sad. I hadn't realized how much the GSL had declined. Some of those dogs looked...cowardly, even when they first walked on to the field. And the structure of some of them is really, really terrible!


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: selzerDid you see the Vegas and the Xara vids. There is no coming off of the sleeve the bite is good. They are not running away.


No, those bites are not good. I wouldn't even say acceptable. Not full, not hard, all slippy and chewy. Better than most you'll see in Sieger videos, but not what someone who actually knows something about protection, SchH, helperwork and what a bite should look like would consider to be good.

And there is a lot of nervous, unconfident, stress releasing behavior... the tagging and biting in the leg being some of that. That isn't a big tough dog biting for real or trying to fight the helper. He is stressed and it shows in those behaviors.

Not running away is certainly not even close to good enough.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: selzerMy dad watched Vegas and Xara again, and we do not see your point at all. The dogs do the job.



No, they really don't do the job. 




> Originally Posted By: selzer And the other link that sent the dog halfway to mars before engaging, it was put on, the guy was swinging the dogs around in a circle, every single dog. A different helper would have looked a lot different.


That is part of correct helperwork. The dog's momentum must be deflected for the safety of the dog and the helper. A courage test should NOT look like two linebackers smashing into each other. If it does, the helper did not do his job correctly and a dog may suffer a crippling, even life ending, injury as a result.

The helpers in the Sieger videos aren't swinging dogs because 1) the dogs would come off the bite if they were swung and 2) it's not needed because the dogs are not coming in with any speed or momentum, so swinging to safely catch the dog is unnecessary.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> The helpers in the Sieger videos aren't swinging dogs because 1) the dogs would come off the bite if they were swung and 2) *it's not needed because the dogs are not coming in with any speed or momentum, so swinging to safely catch the dog is unnecessary.*


If you (not YOU Chris) watch the dogs in the "working line" videos, they are LAUNCHING themselves at the helper like they were shot from a cannon.(All 4 feet leave the ground) With dogs in the Seiger show videos, very rarely do the rear feet leave the ground when they dog bites the helper.


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## Doc

Amen, brother Clif. When will the madness stop? What we need is a massive influx of old bloodlines, bloodlines like Lierberg, BuseckerSchloss, Cosalta, not only in working lines but in the show world as well. Oh, I forgot, those type dogs fell out of favor when money became important and the quality of dog was second. And heaven forbid you call those lines "old fashion" because you will be blasted off the face of the earth. 

I think I will just sit on the veranda, study the bloodlines from the 60's and early 70's, sip sweet ice tea and watch my "not normal" German shepherds frolic. ROFLMBO


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## crackem

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> Not running away is certainly not even close to good enough.


But sadly it is good enough for a whole lot of people.


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## WiscTiger

Selzer, your question was good enough got me thinking.

If we want to see an improvement in nerves, then the bar (expectation/interpretation of the judges) needed to stay where it was a few years back or even bumped up not lowered to allow more dogs to pass. 

I also believe one of the worse things for a breed is when they become popular. When I got my first GSD, breeders were far and few between, now I can drive down the road, pick up a paper, do a local search and find a lot of listings. My personal opinion is that not ever person is cut out or capable of owning a GSD, but many people breeding have watered down the breed so much that in many cases we have a golden with a saddle and no solid nerves. What many breeders didn't realize or understand is that if they breed dogs with good/great nerve then people could own GSD because they would be more balanced. Good dogs start with good/great nerves. Some times dogs with really great nerve are considered dull or even not so bright, I have one. As a pup people thought he was not so bright because he was calm and confident when I took him places unless we were moving, he would just sit or lay down and take in all the action. He didn't react to barking dogs, strange noises, strange surfaces, small kids, large adults, or people in wheel chairs or on crutches. But people didn't understand that it was his great nerve that allowed him to be this calm, not that he wasn't bright or he was dull.

Some how the public thinks that VA/VA pups mean they are guaranteed to have a great pup.

Val


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## Effie325

My puppy doesn't react to barking dogs, children screaming, strangers, fireworks, slick floors, wheelchairs, or whatever else either. I thought that was a given for any normal, stable dog. Did I just get lucky?


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## Andaka

And it is going to get worse. These less than sound dogs are more likely to bite someone. Then the "powers that be" water down the test even further so that the general public does not think that we are breeding alligators , and so goes the downward spiral.


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## Liesje

Disclaimer: I'm in no way defending any of these dogs! And I'm NOT condoning breeding them "just for pets" or whatever....

Question: For these dogs that would not engage, or let go and backed off, assuming these are nerve/temperament issues....do you think these dogs would also be nervy, fear biters, etc if they had never been exposed to any (supposed) SchH training/titling/protection tests? Is a nervy dog a nervy dog in EVERY situation, or can you have a dog that just doesn't hold up when the pressure comes on but is otherwise a fine family pet? I know this is probably getting off topic, I'm just curious b/c it seems like we are putting the dogs into two categories: either they are sound and fairly pass bitework and have legit titles, or they are unsound, nervy, will fear bite. Can dogs fit in the middle?


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## cliffson1

Leis, There are no two camps, the german Shepherd should be able to do what a german shepherd was made to do, a Labrador should be able to do what a lab should be able to do(swim and retreive), a whippet should be able to do what a whippet was made to do, German Shepherd acquired a worldwide reputation for being able to do certain tings. If they can't do a majority of these things per the standard, they are not representative of the breed and should not be bred...Period!


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## Branca's Mom

A nervy dog is a nervy dog. My Urro (working lines, btw) is a fairly nervy dog. I can hide it, very well to the untrained eye, but he is still nervy and when the pressure comes on it shows to anyone who knows what they are looking for. I competed with him in the AKC obedience venue and he did great in the scores but I was always worried that something out of the ordinary would happen like a really loud bang behind him and he would bolt. Is he ok as a family pet? I don't think he would be easy to handle for the average pet owner.

My Branca has nerves of steel. Never ever ever had anything and I do mean anything bother her. She can be a bit more serious to deal with and can do "real" protection work but she is so incredibly easy to handle in every regard due to her impeccable nerves that most any halfway experienced pet home could handle her. She is truly unflappable. 

I think nerves should be the most important thing in a GSD. For a pet home <u>especially. </u>


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## Liesje

Clif, I agree, from a breeding standpoint. I agree completely.

However, take this comment from Daphne (not trying to pick on her, it's just the most recent example):


> Quote: These less than sound dogs are more likely to bite someone.


This comment sounds to me like the dogs who are not cut out for SchH, can't take the pressure are entirely unsound and could turn out to be nervy fear biters even in a non-SchH/work environment...?

That's what I'm wondering....are we saying that if the dog cannot pass the bitework test, he is unsound...is he unsound for SchH or just completely unsound? 

I'll use my dog as an example, not a GSD but a mutt, if that's OK. His name is Coke and he is a pet, that was the point of getting him (DH wanted a "pet" dog b/c I have my GSDs and they are way too needy, hyper, and smart for him, he just wanted a low energy, low drive goofball of a dog and that's exactly what we got). Coke LIVES for people and interacting with people - us, kids, strangers, scary men, people in wheelchairs that make jerky movements - it doesn't matter, he loves them all. He actually visits DH at work in the summer when he does a summer program for young adults with physical and mental handicaps. Some of them are (unintentionally) loud, rough, and have odd movements that might be interpreted as inappropriate by some dogs, but Coke doesn't notice any of this and he just loves getting pet, yelled at, pulled on, sat on, etc. So, one time I took him to the TD at SchH club, because he does play with toys and he does chase prey (killed a rabbit this weekend). However he utterly failed at SchH, just not cut out for it at all. If you drove him with the stick (we didn't!) he would react just as the dogs in these vids, let go and back off. So I guess what I'm wondering is, if he were a GSD, does that make him unsound and unsafe with all these other people and kids? He's training to be a therapy dog, they have to pass a class and a test and be able to do two cute tricks (DH taught him his second trick last night). If someone had a GSD like this, should we assume that b/c the dog does not cut it at SchH, then he would be a liability as a therapy dog?

I'm just interested and want to learn more about the nuances of temperament and what makes a dog "sound". I'm not quite sure I buy that a dog who will not engage in bitework is ultimately unsound, I just do not think that the dog should be bred AT ALL, let alone get high V or VA ratings.


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## WiscTiger

Dogs with nerve issues/weak nerves/ nervy or what ever phrase you want to put on it do not all manifest showing the weakness in the same manner. Can a nervy dog be a good pet, yes if the owner knows what the dog needs to keep it in it's comfort zone and how to handle things.

What failing to engage, doing minmal bite, and some of the other things cowering heeling all shows some amount of weakness in the temperment. The dog can't take the pressure. If you took some of these dogs and tried to do agility you might see things like running past the tunnel, refusal at jumps, because they can't handle the pressue. They will look disinterested, be slow int he run because their brain can't keep up, maybe they start ok fast and clean, but some thing distracts them, lack of ability to focus.

Some dogs with nerve problems, display sound sensitivty issues, others it can be normal things they preceive as a treat. Not all dogs with nerve issues are fear biters, it depends on which of the defenses they are wired for the fight or flight. With a weak nerved dog I prefer those who want to flight, they are easier to deal with IMHO.

Val


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## Branca's Mom

Lots of dogs _are _sound that can't do the bitework for one reason or another. 

Lots of dogs <u>passing</u> the bitework _are unsound._ I could get Urro to pass the bitework with the right helper and training but if you know what you are seeing then you would see that he would be stressed while doing it. I think it is a matter of knowing what you are seeing. 

_Does this make sense?_


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## crackem

dogs with bad nerves don't always act out in aggression. Some just slink and hide away or use heavy signals to try and calm a situation. Some do act out aggressively and will bite. Maybe because they're genetically inclined to act out that way, or they were trained to use aggression to stop the stress. Those are the dangerous ones.

but there are plenty of dogs with what I would consider poor nerves that do just fine as a family dog, mostly out of luck.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomLots of dogs _are _sound that can't do the bitework for one reason or another.
> 
> Lots of dogs <u>passing</u> the bitework _are unsound._ I could get Urro to pass the bitework with the right helper and training but if you know what you are seeing then you would see that he would be stressed while doing it. I think it is a matter of knowing what you are seeing.
> 
> _Does this make sense?_


This makes perfect sense to me, it just seemed that some were saying that if the dog can't do bitework, then it's unsound (overall). It got me thinking b/c we are training a dog for therapy work and the organization you have to be registered with in order to visit the childrens hospital in town will not even allow SchH trained dogs to register (which I do think is bull).


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## Vandal

What happened this year is that those "performances" on that video created sympathy for the dogs. As sad as that was for the dogs, it can ultimately end up as a good thing if the AR people don't grab onto it first. The reason that documentary talked about on the other thread was so successful at stirring people up in the UK is that same sympathy factor, where people can see that animals are suffering as a result of people's carefully planned actions. It is one thing when an animal gets hurt or injured by accident but when someone plans to do it, that's a whole different ball game. When I say planning I am talking about breeding decisions and in the case of the bitework, choosing to take the result of those hideous choices and placing those dogs in situations that clearly frightens them. Kind of like putting someone with Arachnophobia in a room full of spiders. There is a level of cruelty there and the idea that these dogs were "intentionally" bred this way makes it all the more diabolical. IMO, there is some kind of emotional disconnect in people who can do that to an animal and clearly, if you are in a Sieger Show with that dog, your intent in doing so is to gain "credentials", ( a word I am quickly learning to hate), so you can breed that poor, literally defenseless animal and create more of the same.

I remember clearly when the first Sieger Show took place here in CA in the early 90s. I told my training group that because the German Show ring has arrived, the demand for titling services will explode. Unfortunately, I was right. I think the pay to title thing is one of the bigger factors in the decline of the SL dogs. When you do not have to work with the result of what you breed, it makes it easy to kid or convince yourself that the dog is a good one once he gets that title. Most people have NO idea how their dogs get those titles or even how they are handled during the months they are away from home. I have seen it first hand and I can tell you it is not a pretty sight. Unethical just doesn't do justice to what goes on there and for these types of dogs, it is exceptionally hard on them and you can see it taking it's toll as the days go by. They are again, not designed to handle that level of stress and changing homes and being immediately pressured to work with a person they don't know, is again, something that borders on cruel. Even a strong dog will be affected by this, although the symptoms of it are far different.

SchH, (or any type of training really), should clearly promote and display the bond between the dog and handler. That is why you lose points for a dog that looks pressured in the SchH trial. It says something about the bond. You can see the lack of a connection with their handlers in that SS video. Part of it is genetic where they are less capable of this because they take everything so "personal'. Because of their weakened character, they take even the slightest of a correction, even from their own handlers, as an attack. It is harder for them to trust the handler because they are a little afraid of them due to their nerves. You can imagine how difficult it can be for these dogs when they don't even know the handler. Think about that. One step further is the bitework and we all can see what I am talking about there. It is not simply a case of rushed training or what I just talked about though, more than half of it is the genetics created by the choices these breeders make and then compounded by what they put the dogs thru in order to get that title.

I can't say there is anything more special than that bond you can have with your dog but it is something that many of these people have never experienced. If they did, perhaps they would think it over a bit before they stick their dog, ( who is not genetically suited for the work in the first place), in a box and ship them off to someone who cares more about making money than they ever would about their dog. These are not really "dog people", their motivation lies elsewhere and of all the breeds that are out there, it is a shame they have their claws on the GSD. German Shepherds are the most loyal of all the breeds. What a shame that people are not.


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## cliffson1

Yes tammy, it makes plenty sense. As for bitework and being a good pet...I think its apple and oranges. To me a dog doesn't have to do great bitework to be sound at all. But in the the Seiger show all these males are SCH 3s, and you can't be a Sch dog without the bitework. So, the problem is that the bitework from dogs trained to do bitework shows definite weaknesses in nerve and ability to withstand stress. Many great narcotic dogs, or SAR dogs, or seeing-eye dogs, do not do bitework but must have sound nerves to be good at their job. There are many ways to observe weak nerves that have nothing to do with bitework. But most of these dogs we are talking about really should never have been any higher than a Sch1. Fact! Once a dog has reached a level of a legitimate Sch three...they never "lose" it. Its like learning to ride a bike, once you can do you can always do it under normal conditions. These dogs have worried looks in eyes, slinking approaches, tail carriactures, and on and on and on. Its like when I see a GS in a show pose and the tail is bent towards the dog....No way. NONE of my dogs EVER tuck their tails under their belly or even toward their belly when stacked. These dogs are lacking, and it not like one poster said to me MAYBE I have been lucky wih my dogs. This isn't luck people its knowledge and integrity to only breed what will keep the breed noble.


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## Branca's Mom

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> Part of it is genetic where they are less capable of this because they take everything so "personal'. Because of their weakened character, they take even the slightest of a correction, even from their own handlers, as an attack. It is harder for them to trust the handler because they are a little afraid of them due to their nerves.


But, if I can make a point, not all handler sensitive dogs are weak in the nerves or lack character. I don't know that everyone makes this distinction. I take Branca again. 100% solid nerves and not sensitive in any other way really but she is handler sensitive in regards to me. I know lots of people don't like handler sensitive dogs but personally I do as this fits my training personality.


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## Vandal

I have sensitive working line dogs. It is not just a case of sensitivity in the majority of the SL dogs. Things get too far "inside" these dogs and that is not simply sensitivity.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Yes tammy, it makes plenty sense. As for bitework and being a good pet...I think its apple and oranges. To me a dog doesn't have to do great bitework to be sound at all.


Thanks Clif & Tammy, that is what I was wondering, if bitework really is the end-all and be-all



> Quote:Once a dog has reached a level of a legitimate Sch three...they never "lose" it. Its like learning to ride a bike, once you can do you can always do it under normal conditions.


Makes sense to me. Before I got into dogs just recently, I was into competitive gymnastics and even though one is a dog and one is a human, they are almost exactly the same (same in-fighting about politics, training styles, body type, foundation work, when is too young or too old to train this or that, judges giving placements based on their own likes/dislikes or worse, who they are in cahoots with....) and also like you say, once you learn a skill and have been competing it, as long as you are fit you can get on the equipment years and years later and still do it. Might be a little rusty the first few times, but the "muscle memory" and the mental process is all still there.


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## Branca's Mom

One other thing. I agree so much with Anne about sending your dog off for training.... seen it first hand. 

Please think long and hard about sending a dog off for titles. When a trainer is doing it for the money versus the experience, they will do it the quickest and easiest way and it is not a pretty thing and your dog is the one who pays the price


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: VandalI have sensitive working line dogs. It is not just a case of sensitivity in the majority of the SL dogs. Things get too far "inside" these dogs and that is not simply sensitivity.


What really stuck out to me was the couple dogs who didn't engage, or let go, but then also flinched/spooked when the judge stepped forward. I know hardly anything about the SchH but those dogs were nervous of someone stepping toward them!


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## Kayos and Havoc

This has been an excellent thread! I generally start rolling my eyes at the threads that end up or strt off as "which is better working or showline?" or "which is the REAL deal-working or showline?" 

But this thread is not about that - it is about temperament wnd nerves, I think. Should not matter which line, if the dog is not sound enough to perform the tasks it was bred for it should not bred nor should it be recieving titles. It should be altered and placed in a home where it will loved, cared for and live out it's days as a great companion.

As a compaarison, and this is only becasue this is what I am familiar with- there has been a move from many AKC competitors to water down obedience because some dogs cannot pass the exercises. The AKC and the vast majority of trainers and competitors have fought this and it has not happened - thank goodness. None of the exercises are that ahrd to train if you work at it. 

AKC obedience titles, like SchH titles should not be gimmes. They were not designed for that. 

Although I do not do SchH I see it as the ultimate test of breedablity in the GSD. 

All you SchH people------- please don't let them water that down, the breed will suffer mightily. Many dogs competing in AKC performance events are working line dogs and show line dogs. Most American showlines now have incorporated some either GSL or WL dogs into the breeding lines to attempt to preserve some working drive and turn back the slope hock dog. 

If SchH gets watered down all lines will suffer more.


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## Branca's Mom

> Originally Posted By: VandalI have sensitive working line dogs. It is not just a case of sensitivity in the majority of the SL dogs. Things get too far "inside" these dogs and that is not simply sensitivity.


Just wanted to point that out to anyone reading that handler sensitivity is not always a sign of weakness. It can be, but it is not always. 

I can imagine my Urro out on the field looking like these dogs. Well, I don't think he would be that bad, LOL, but it would be dag-gone ugly nonetheless. I would NEVER do that to him. I try to build him up not put him in situations where he is stressed to the point of crapping his pants. 

I would think it would be like putting me, someone who is TERRIFIED of public speaking in front of an audience of hundreds and telling me I had better make a speech or else. I might have to do it, but I would look so incredibly pathetic and would surely arouse sympathy by anyone that had an empathetic bone in their body. That is what I think about when I watch these dogs, I think about me being forced into a really miserable public speaking situation and I feel horrible for these dogs....


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## Vandal

> Quote: What really stuck out to me was the couple dogs who didn't engage, or let go, but then also flinched/spooked when the judge stepped forward. I know hardly anything about the SchH but those dogs were nervous of someone stepping toward them!


What you saw there was a dog who had been pushed into hyper alert mode. You have probably experienced something similar yourself. I know I get more jumpy if I am in a place where I could get hurt or think I might. When a person is in that frame of mind, everything that appears has the potential to startle them. 
Think about how you might react if you were walking thru a parking garage at night and someone quickly walked up behind you. That's how that dog is feeling. He views the situation as dangerous when , ( especially since he is a SchH 3...supposedly), he must have seen it more than once. That speaks to the nerves....loudly.


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## WiscTiger

Anne makes are really good point about repeated exposure.

I look at this like spring in a wind up clock, when the pressure is on the dog the spring is getting cranked a little tighter. So you are working to get ready to go to the show/trail what ever, you up your training schedule, you demand more from the dog, the spring gets tighter. The more and harder you work to get what performance you want the spring get tighter. Now the BIG day, you get there, your dog is sullen, draggie, appears defiant in your eyes you crank on him, the spring gets tighter and tighter. Now you go to perform, the dogs brain is cranked so tight it can't think it is afraid to work but afraid not to, all it wants to do is go back to the crate to try to unwind. Why do dogs give the half try, because they are afraid of the pressure that will come from not trying at all.

Just some of my thoughts.

Val


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## cliffson1

No it isn't about show vs working, as much as it is about the integrity of the German Shepherd, and people loving their dog vs people loving the BREED! There is a difference!. Owners should fall into the first category. Breeders have a responsibility to the integrity of the breed. TOO many owners are breeders. They don't know the standard, they don't know the history, they do know the functionality of the breed, BUT they do know what they like whether it has right color, conformation, rocket long bites, long hair, etc. None of these should be the reason to breed a German Shepherd and when you do you get dogs in Seiger shows or Grand Victors. Now some will say well I know people that breed to work......HELLO...lights on....the dog is a working dog!!! Not a conformation dog, not a black and red dog, not a malinois, but a supreme working dog capable of most any tasks. So if you breed for some of the reasons listed above to create these specific "type" dogs then you ARE part of the problem. Plain and simple!


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## lhczth

> Originally Posted By: VandalWhat happened this year is that those "performances" on that video created sympathy for the dogs. As sad as that was for the dogs, it can ultimately end up as a good thing if the AR people don't grab onto it first. The reason that documentary talked about on the other thread was so successful at stirring people up in the UK is that same sympathy factor, where people can see that animals are suffering as a result of people's carefully planned actions. ............................


This is one of the most disturbing posts I have ever read (I didn't quote the whole thing).


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## Branca's Mom

Ihczth, are you talking about Vandals post? The thread as a whole, or a documentary that she was referring to? What documentary BTW???


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## Liesje

Tammy I'm guessing the one about the show dogs? It had the Cavaliers, GSDs that looked like frogs, the Pekingese on ice, etc....I can't remember the title of the programme.


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## Branca's Mom

Is it on youtube?


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## Chris Wild

Tammy, it's the "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" documentary done by the BBC.

Much discussion on it in this thread, and also a link to where the video is posted online in the first post:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=894815&page=1#Post894815


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## Branca's Mom

Thanks

I'll check it out.


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## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> This comment sounds to me like the dogs who are not cut out for SchH, can't take the pressure are entirely unsound and could turn out to be nervy fear biters even in a non-SchH/work environment...?


 I think of the dogs ability to be a pet "generic" goos temperament. My Amline girl has a generic good temperament overall, although she can be a bit leash reactive with some dogs. She is friendly, generally sound and doesn't have any sort of major issues. But she is far from suitable for SchH, more so due to lack of drive than anything.

IME most people's pet dogs of any breed would be unsuitable for SchH/protection work, often due to nerves. I know plenty of dogs who are good pets and sound (generic good temperament - can be taken out and about without worry, isn't shy or skittish, good with family and others) but certainly don't have a the drive and/or nerves to be good at SchH/protection work. 

I think that to be a good GSD, the dog should be able to do protection work and needs to have good nerves and good drive. But what makes a good pet dog is a lot more varied. I know dogs who are shy with strangers but are still great pets for their people.


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## cliffson1

Agile, I totally agree...good pets are for owners and nothing wrong with that. Of course dogs with good nerves and drive make great pets also. So it is the job of breeders to breed for good nerves and the pet and work will get taken care of....it really isn't complicated.


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## lhczth

> Quote:Ihczth, are you talking about Vandals post?


I was referring to Anne's post that I partially quoted.


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## DancingCavy

Watching that video made me really really sad.







I admittedly know very little about the finer points of Schutzhund and would be hard-pressed to tell an excellent dog from a good one. However, I know fearful dogs (I live with one) and that's exactly what I saw here. So very sad. I think it's pretty telling when the dog is cowering during the HEELING part of the exercise. Yes, it could be due to poor training, but not when coupled with the poor performances during the bitework.

I also found it odd how the crowd reacted to these dogs. I would expect some "Awwwws" or other disappointment noises upon seeing these dogs' reactions to pressure from the helper.

I do hope people realize what is happening to this wonderful breed and start to change things for the better. Temperament should be paramount to this working breed. Conformation is nice, yes, as a GSD should look like a GSD and not a Bullmastiff. But at what cost do we place conformation above all else?

I will also agree with whoever said a fearful dog is, generally, not an ideal pet for the average family. Depending on the level of fear, you can have a lot of work ahead of you. Most people are just not willing to put forth that effort. 

This thread, however, has been very enlightening and I have enjoyed following it. I too am very impressed that it has stayed so civil as these threads often spiral out of control.


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## zyppi

apologize for not reading the whole thread, but from the video and some comments, I'd say a lot of people who think they want a German Shepherd Dog really want a Golden in GSD costume!

As for the movement, that is just pitiful.

That said, remembet that vets don't keep stats on mixed breeds so we really don't know how to compare health and welfare of pedigree dogs to the heinz 57 variety.

IMHO, breeder shouldn't call themselves breeders unless they're trying to produee healthy, suitable tempered dogs visually representative of the given breed.


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## selzer

I think that the showline people believe that their dogs have the correct temperament and that some of the working line dogs have an extreme temperament. 

The dog was bred as a shepherd that could also be used during war. It was bred out of sheepherding dogs to be able to guard the sheep as well as herd them. The vid that had the four pathetic expamples running away, etc., would not be able to protect the sheep/shepherd from a robber. I would hope that the dogs who did pass this temperament test would be able to protect the shepherd/property owner from a threat. For this the dog does not need four feet off the ground, he needs to engage even if the guy is swinging a stick. 

Rushie's dam was German showlines and his sire was a mixture of American lines and German Working lines. The boy is calm. He is a therapy dog. I do not think he would do well in bitework, though nothing freaks him out. He is about as close to a black and tan golden you can get. He has good character. I joke that I have to put two bitches in front of his kennel to protect him from the burglars. Of all my dogs, he is the last that would ever bite anyone. He is calm and confident and simply a good boy. 


I think that the real bad guy in this whole thread is Schutzhund. The dogs were Schutzhund three dogs, maybe. I think that the first time dogs go to a sieger show, they can be schutzhund 1 and the next time they have to have the rest of their titles. I am not sure of that though. But if they ARE schutzhund titled dogs, the shame on those that performed the test on those dogs. 

People say that titles are bought. And I must admit that performance events, some of them, you would have to have a complete nervebag to not be able to complete a title on. But if you can buy a title on a dog, the problem is the organization passing out titles. If you want to improve the breed, then maybe the fight should be to improve Schutzhund so that dogs that demonstrate cowardice and poor character could not pass. 

Lastly, and I do not know all of this, but I thought they had to be titled in Schutzhund or in herding. Is it possible that somebody thought it would be fun to videotape the protection work of dogs entered with herding titles? 

I do not think the answer to this is to make the temperament test so extreme that only the most extreme dogs could pass it. At the same time I do not think that a dog that demonstrates cowardly behavior should pass. It sounds like the Sieger show failed a lot of dogs that schutzhund shows passed. So lets beat up on Schutzhund for a while.


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## Xeph

But it's not the fault of schutzhund, it's the fault of dishonest trainers and judges. Schutzhund itself is neutral, it is those that judge it that keep the issues going.


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## Dainerra

I think selzer was referring to the Organization that is schutzhund - owners, trainers, judges etc etc 

Ive gone back and watched it again. even more horrible, since I see what people here have mentioned (and I thought it was bad before!) It comes down to people. It seems that these days no one wants to hurt anyone's feelings. so they pass the dogs if they can fake it enough to get by. 
Maybe these dogs were able to FAKE their way to the titles, because they were always in a familiar setting, surrounded by people they know, same helper, etc etc. if you pick and choose where you trial, I would think that would be possible. If you think of that, the surprise of the one dog at the blind would make sense "hey, you arent the guy that is usually here..." and why he looks around at the handler. It becomes an easy stressless routine. Heel, play with Bob at the blind, run over here, run down and play with Bob some more. 

???? would that be possible?


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Lastly, and I do not know all of this, but I thought they had to be titled in Schutzhund or in herding. Is it possible that somebody thought it would be fun to videotape the protection work of dogs entered with herding titles?


The HGH is its own class, I am not aware they do a protection test at the BSZS. ALL dogs must perform the same test when they are Koer'd, even the HGH dogs, but I was told that there is a protection part to the HGH itself so this is not new to HGH dogs. One of the best show line bitches I have ever seen as far as work/SchH is an HGH dog with NO SchH titles, but like others were saying earlier, a SchH title does not mean the dog is any good and an HGH title does not mean the dog has no protection training. The drive, nerve, courage, etc all must be there to be an actual herding dog. The dog I know that is so good is good not just b/c she has an HGH title, but because she herded sheep with a shepherd (human) all day long. I really like a lot of the HGH dogs because they are so courageous and at times seem to have more ability to use their own head and think for themselves. Of the bitework I have seen from them and from the so-called SchH dogs at shows (I'm talking what I have seen in person not in these videos), the HGH dogs put the SchH dogs to shame.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DainerraI think selzer was referring to the Organization that is schutzhund - owners, trainers, judges etc etc
> 
> Ive gone back and watched it again. even more horrible, since I see what people here have mentioned (and I thought it was bad before!) It comes down to people. It seems that these days no one wants to hurt anyone's feelings. so they pass the dogs if they can fake it enough to get by.
> Maybe these dogs were able to FAKE their way to the titles, because they were always in a familiar setting, surrounded by people they know, same helper, etc etc. if you pick and choose where you trial, I would think that would be possible. If you think of that, the surprise of the one dog at the blind would make sense "hey, you arent the guy that is usually here..." and why he looks around at the handler. It becomes an easy stressless routine. Heel, play with Bob at the blind, run over here, run down and play with Bob some more.
> 
> ???? would that be possible?


Unfortunately I think you are giving them way too much credit. The reality is that many of these dogs are sent to someone else for training, and when someone else is getting paid, they put titles on the dog FAST using a ton of pressure, coercion, avoidance, etc., quick trial to get a title (if they trial at all), then it can be years later until the dog is in this type of show and doesn't even know how to sit because there was no foundation, the training was crap, the owner did nothing to maintain the training, and the dog was just not bred for this in the first place.


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## GSDextrodinaire

Lies,

An interesting take on HGH. I know a few HGH, and I have one in my program, although now retired. The majority of the HGH dogs I have met, I actually like. However, those who were strictly HGH were exceptional at herding, but lacked certain traits I want in an all around balanced dog. This is not the dog's fault and probably not an issue of breeding but an issue of environmental retardation. Pardon the term, please do not be offended, it is a technically correct term. In my experience, the HGH that also have a SchH title are more balanced because they have additional life experience outside of the "work". Those with just an HGH (which is an amazing accomplishment, if actually earned) are only required to do a breed survey, which entails the attack out of the blind, and the courage test. The majority of those dogs unless they are also SchH titled are trained specifically for the "performance test" and nothing more. I have seen some HGH dogs training for their cert for life, and honestly wondered how it was that the dogs passed the breed survey the first time. I have also seen some HGH dogs cause spectators to cheer and clap, with amazement, although those are few and far between.

IMO, just like with breeding specific to the show ring, or the sport podium, when GSDs are bred specific for herding, the balance that makes the dog special begins to diminish. Extremes begin to become prominent. This is why it is so important that breeders look at the total dog and not just looks, drive, or working ability. The GSD is not a dog that is suppose to be the best at everything, but it is the breed that is suppose to be able to do everything and do it well. The dog should be able to work with his master, tend the flock, guard the home and lick the face of the child it lives with demonstrating loving care. The dog SHOULD NEVER run at a simple threat of a padded stick, the sound of gunfire, the slamming of a door, or the dropping of a pan on the floor. The dog should stand his ground, alert to do his master's bidding. Ever vigil, always alert, prepared to counter any threat, and under control.


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## cliffson1

Dee, If I understand your post correctly we are in strong disagreement about the HGH dogs. The closest thing to the "real" german shepherd, IMO, today is the HGH dogs from herding lines. I'm not talking these HIC dogs, nor am I talking HGH dogs that are half showlines such as Kirschental. That is not knocking Kirschental's dogs. True German Shepherds possess four things in various degrees, Courage, drive, intelligence, and biddability. If lacking any of these four componets you diminish the capability of the "utilitarian" dog. Many show dogs have lost definitely two and in some cases three of these components. Many of the over the top workinglines have lost biddability or intelligence. (They haven't really lost the intelligence or biddability but the drive overrides the brain). The optimum dogs are the old line HGH dogs that have all four components in ABUNDANCE! If you look at the great dogs of the sixties and seventies and before, you usually see they go back to great HGH dogs usually through the motherlines. Dogs like Marko vom Cellerland(one HGH parent), Lierbergs, Held v Ritterberg all go through strong HGH dogs. Today both show and working have taken this equation out of balance in many cases. Some workinglines have so loaded on the protection phase they have completely forgot about "genetic obedience" which is a part of biddability and intelligence. The true HGH dogs will excell in Sch also, they won't have the reckless abandon long bite, nor will they have the unsure junk you get from some show lines, but they will give you good strong committment to the task with enough force to control the situation. 
This is why i laugh when I hear people talk about "getting" a HGH title on their American bred showline, because they think since there is no bitework their golden retreiver can do this work. So very very wrong and clearly a lack of knowledge and understanding of the instinctive components necessary to complete this degree. You see, the instinctive components are so very vital and the specialty breeders have bred this out in a lot of cases. Can you trial an HGH dog and get the title in Germany, sure, just like schutzhund, that's why genetics is so important to have the old HGH lines as opposed to some of the newer lines..When we look at the current showlines its been SOOOOOO long since any of this type of true instinctive blood has been infused that you have what you have. Of course if you take HGH titled motherlines and show sires you can have beautiful dogs with good heads on their shoulders. Karl fuller has done this for years...but when you see dogs from true herding lines work you instantly see the difference(body type for one, thus speed and agility superior), and the light bulb goes on. JMO.
One last thing, this is where people like Khawk and Doc, are coming from when they talk about german shepherd temperament. Many many people wouldn't know true shepherd temperament if it bit them, because their point of reference is what has evolved in past thirty years.


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## GSDextrodinaire

Clifton,

We aren't out of agreement, at all. In fact you just went in more depth than I did. True herding dogs, not the dogs of today that "earn" the titles, the real lines are few and far between. There is a huge difference in the genetics of the real herding dog lines compared to what most believe the herding lines are. Although, many of the K dogs are very nice, they are far removed from the kinds of herding lines I really like.

When I was talking about breeding of dogs for HGH I was speaking of the breedings of the last 20 years and how the breedings have changed losing the inherited well balance of what the herding dog truly was and in my opinion should be.

As some will argue, in most GSD homes there is no need for the dog to work at herding 500 head of sheep over many miles on a daily basis. However, that doesn't mean the GSDs of today shouldn't have the temperament, structure and inherited ability to do so. Additionally, there is a HUGE difference between dogs who are bred specifically for the HGH as compared to dogs who do the work daily who do not have the HGH title.

What is happening, and I don't think anyone can disagree with this opinion, is that breedings across the board be they for whatever "work" purpose tend to produce extremes stepping away from the well balanced dog. (sorry for the run on)

Each camp breeds for traits specific to enhance their programs. The majority aren't looking at the balance of the dog and what the standard is. Each person interprets the standard adding or deleting things they want specifically. I am by no means campaigning for a "golden middle" as I do not personally agree with that term and find it to be a business gimmick.

Bottom line, the GSD was intended to be a breed of utility. When you breed and concentrate on ONLY one aspect of the utility you lose the other components that made the GSD special and useful.


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## cliffson1

Dee, very eloquently put. I agree with everything that you said and true shepherd dog breeders would also!! The irony is these type breeders are the real reputable breeders and the others breeding to their "likes" are tearing the breed down!!


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## cliffson1

Therefore, when you understand the concepts Dee just articulated and you view the dogs at the Seiger show you see that they are lacking in mental and PHYSICAL capacity to be true shepherd dog. these dogs have lost the speed, quickness, and agility to really be utility dogs. Could you see these dogs getting over a 5 and half foot fence if their master was on other side being assaulted. Could you see them darting in and out witha persistent ewe running at full speed for 10 minutes. Could you see them taking on a mean ram that intent on charging and doing damage. We have lost our way to see the least!


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## Vandal

> Quote:
> If you think of that, the surprise of the one dog at the blind would make sense "hey, you arent the guy that is usually here..." and why he looks around at the handler. It becomes an easy stressless routine. Heel, play with Bob at the blind, run over here, run down and play with Bob some more.
> 
> ???? would that be possible?



Well, it is certainly possible that someone might train that way and choose a place to trial where the dog is really comfortable and familiar. However, in any of those types of scenarios, if the judge was doing his job and really evaluating the dog's behavior during the routine, there is no way dogs like the ones on the video could have "really" passed a trial ANYWHERE. To be blunt, the fact of the matter is, the majority of these people are CHEATING. It's that simple. The dog's in that video are so deficient they could not pass ANY legitimate SchH trial, even if it had been held in the owners living room. I have worked lots of show dogs and it is pretty amazing how many times they can see the helper come out of that blind and still startle...and I mean startle as in jump out of their shoes. That's an edge coming from very weak nerves along with a few other missing components. When you work good dogs all the time, you start to take for granted what that attack out of the blind is testing. It is so easy for some dogs and then when you see what I just talked about in the show dogs, it is a reminder of why it was in the SchH routine in the first place and also a reminder of why the huge majority of show people didn't mind one bit when it was removed from the SchH trial.



> Quote: The true HGH dogs will excell in Sch also, they won't have the reckless abandon long bite,



The "reckless long bite" , IMO, is many times not coming from the traits in the dog that the courage test was originally designed to display. Nowadays it is coming more from a somewhat frantic desire to get to that sleeve. The dogs are now taught that the sleeve brings calmness which was not such a bad idea when someone thought of it years ago when the dogs were different . They were more serious, had better nerves etc and were more German Shepherd like, but now you have trainers placing WAY too much significance on the "prey object" which really has reduced the whole thing into somewhat of a joke and into a totally incomplete test of the dog's protective instincts. 
Many times, what the dogs are doing out on the field, is not what SchH people think it is and it is not really coming from a place of strength. There is a difference but frankly, there is SO much ignorance about behavior in SchH now, it is easy to understand how the dogs are being misread and then subsequently "misbred".
There are too many people practicing "Recreational Schutzhund" who become breeders immediately after their first dog gets a title. That also is leading to a big decline in the quality of the dogs and not just show dogs..


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## cliffson1

AMEN!!


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## Effie325

I'm very much enjoying this discussion. Just thought I'd come out from behind the sofa and say that. Very informative.


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## sitstay

> Originally Posted By: Effie325I'm very much enjoying this discussion. Just thought I'd come out from behind the sofa and say that. Very informative.


Yes! I think this has been one of the best threads I have ever read on this forum. 
Sheilah


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## BlackGSD

Great post Anne.


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## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Effie325I'm very much enjoying this discussion. Just thought I'd come out from behind the sofa and say that. Very informative.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! I think this has been one of the best threads I have ever read on this forum.
> Sheilah
Click to expand...

What they said


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## Vandal

http://www.vangoghkennels.com/pb-htdocs/Adobe%20Files/ElmarMannesInterview.pdf

Here is a very good article that was featured in the USA Magazine. Claudia Romard has provided a number of really good articles for the magazine but this one is the best one, IMO. 
I have to say that while I have been saying the same things for a number of years now, it made me sad to read it coming from someone else, an SV judge no less and involved in the breed for over 40 years.


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## BlackGSD

Anne,

Thanks a milion for sharing the link to the article.


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## Kayos and Havoc

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Effie325I'm very much enjoying this discussion. Just thought I'd come out from behind the sofa and say that. Very informative.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! I think this has been one of the best threads I have ever read on this forum.
> Sheilah
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What they said
Click to expand...

Yep numner 3 or 4! I think I said it earlier too so I will just say it again.
















Going to read that article.....


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## Kayos and Havoc

And I cannot open it.......


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## Doc

SchH has gone from a test of character to a sporting event (perhaps circus is a better term). Dogs are being manipulated (trained) to perform in a sport. They are not being allowed to exhibit their genetic obedience because most of what is needed has been bred out of them. A good trainer can train any dog to perform - an outstanding trainer recognizes the inherited ability and encourages the dog to "do his thing". You often hear that the Lieberg dogs were "easy" to train. It's all about the bloodlines and genetics. Like my dad always told me, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken manure (of course he had another 4 letter word for manure) no matter how good of a cook you are." The downward spiral of the German shepherd started 30+ years ago. Maybe we are close to the bottom now?


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DocSchH has gone from a test of character to a sporting event (perhaps circus is a better term). Dogs are being manipulated (trained) to perform in a sport. They are not being allowed to exhibit their genetic obedience because most of what is needed has been bred out of them.


This is far from universally true. In some cases it is, in others not.

There are people, trainers, helpers and clubs who still utilize SchH as a breed test, and when utilized that way it is still a very good one. Particularly when in the training process they branch out beyond what is required simply to pass the trial.

Then of course there are those who look at it from a sport/point standpoint only.

And quite obviously based on the SS performances, there are those who look at it only as a obstacle to be overcome in their quest to show and breed show dogs, and they will do whatever it takes to get that title, including finding ways that don't even require training and trialing a dog.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Doc. Like my dad always told me, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken manure (of course he had another 4 letter word for manure) no matter how good of a cook you are."


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## khawk

I would like to ask a question of those knowledgeable about Schudtzhund on the forum. What part, if any, do they think that the current styles of conformation of the dogs play in fitting or unfitting them for their attempt to do the work? 

I watched the videos and was appalled, not just at the dogs' actions, but by their structure and movement. One dog actually fell sideways in attempting to pivot on his hind legs, and I did not see any dog being able to get any kind of real drive out of his hocks. I read one description of the dogs as hyenas in german shepherd coats, and that description resonated with me. The dogs crouched, hopped, even at times seemed to limp as they moved. I question if the roached backs, the grotesquely elongated thighs and awkward hock constructions are taking a physical toll on the dog's ability to move that impacts their work. I also wonder if the breeding of such extremes in structure may impact temperament.

I know that we normally think of structure and temperament being two separate and distinct parts of the dog, but is it possible that breeding such extremes of physical structure degrade not only the physical soundness of the dog but the mental soundness of the animal as well? And yes, I know that we have all known dogs with wonderful temperaments whose bodies simply fail them, but I posit that they may, perhaps, be merely the exception, rather than the rule. Just something I throw out for discussion. khawk


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## Vandal

> Quote:I know that we normally think of structure and temperament being two separate and distinct parts of the dog, but is it possible that breeding such extremes of physical structure degrade not only the physical soundness of the dog but the mental soundness of the animal as well?


YES


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## Vandal

I have no scientific proof but I have always believed that to be the case. I know my confidence in a fight would be diminished if my feet were tied.

Edited to add: also, the dog should be free to fight the helper. If he has to fight with his own body as well, it can certainly affect the way he works. Anything that impedes the dog can damage confidence. Normally, this is the handler's mistakes that do this but certainly a physical impediment can also.


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## Vandal

To me more specific, I think anytime you try to breed too far beyond the natural balance of one aspect of an animal, you end up affecting all parts of the dog in one degree or another. When the pendulum swings too far in one direction or the other, it takes with it the entire dog, not just that one aspect. IMO, it would be almost impossible for that not to happen.


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## Kayos and Havoc

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1 True German Shepherds possess four things in various degrees, Courage, drive, intelligence, and biddability. If lacking any of these four componets you diminish the capability of the "utilitarian" dog. Many show dogs have lost definitely two and in some cases three of these components. Many of the over the top workinglines have lost biddability or intelligence. (They haven't really lost the intelligence or biddability but the drive overrides the brain). The optimum dogs are the old line HGH dogs that have all four components in ABUNDANCE!
> 
> Some workinglines have so loaded on the protection phase they have completely forgot about "genetic obedience" which is a part of biddability and intelligence.


What I want in my next GSD is this 
In my mind this is the perfect dog when all things are considered and we realize nothing is perfect. 

I purchased my showline pup from an excellent breeder.Last year's Universal Seigerin came from the same kennel. I think my showline is fabulous, I really do. But he mmay be an exception after seeing what I ave seen and reading what I read. 

I would love to have a working line GSD but I don't want this: "Some workinglines have so loaded on the protection phase they have completely forgot about "genetic obedience" which is a part of biddability and intelligence. "

So how does one go about finding that working line dog that carries "Courage, drive, intelligence, and biddability" in the correct and relatively equal equation? How do you know that is what you are getting? You see websites, talk to breeders and think you know what you are getting and sometimes you end up with more than you bargained for or less! 

My fabulous showline dog is so drivy he is sometimes more than I think I can deal with. I took him out to a Schutzhund club in eastern WA a few times before I moved and a lot of the folk there said he could "out drive" the working lines there.

I want a balanced dog with good drive but I need a biddable dog with good intellegence adn "genetic obedience" .

I have had GSD's for many years, 20 actually, but the more I read the less I think I know!


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## cliffson1

There are many workinglines dogs that carry all four in abundance, but just like the Seiger show they are not always the most publicized dogs.


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## Dainerra

thanks for the answers guys. I knew it would be beyond cheating and that any legit judge could pick out a dog that was taught that way. but, I think it goes back to a dead-end loop. If a judge flunks too many people, then handlers will avoid that judge. so the judge gets more lenient, the dogs get sloppier and sloppier in their work and the downward spiral continues


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## GSDextrodinaire

Part of what we are discussing is why I NEVER would trial my dogs at a show club and only at a working dog club. I do not belong to a show dog club, and I am pretty sure I would not be welcome at one. I prefer working dog people and clubs who see past the color and pedigree of a dog, and see the GSD.

It has always been VERY important to me that my dog earn everything she gets. I knew going into all this that I was starting with a good handful of strikes against me, just because the majority of my dogs are German Show line. I knew I was going to have to work three times as hard as other trainers/handlers. I have made sure to never put my dog or myself in a position where someone could say we were "given" a gift and that we didn't earn what we got on that given day on that given field. 

I am not the only person that thinks this way, we just happen to be in the minority. We do want an honest assessment of our dog be it on the schutzhund field or in a ring. Don't give us what we don't deserve, as that does not do any of us, especially the breed any honor.


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## selzer

One thing about structure. The way things are now, the dogs at the sieger show have to pass an endurance test which is so many miles at a trot while the handler rides a bike, or they run for hours around the ring pulling all the while, while handlers are switched. 

These dogs are conditioned to be able to do this. 

These dogs may not be able to herd sheep all day, or maybe they could. 

What is necessary and bred for structurewise for schutzhund, tracking, obedience, and protection, weekend warriors, whatever, may not require the stamina that an actual herding dog would require. 

I have always preferred animals that were not extreme on slope, and had a level topline, at least in transmission. However, I have been told by someone in the breed for over fifty years and then read it also in a book, that the proper angulation will enable the dog to eat up the ground with the proper stride. This enables the dog to work all day long and cover the milage. If they do not have enough slope fore or aft, or too much slope fore or aft, then the stride is either lengthened or shortened and both will cause the dog to tire too quickly. She also told me that as the dogs run, the roach does not look as pronounced. (I do not like roachy dogs either). 

Those dogs at crufts, and a lot of American showlines look like they have such loose back ends that they would be incapable of work. I do not see this as the case in the German dogs. 

Is it possible that the reason the working line dogs will go excellent, but not select is because the slope is simply not correct, and it is more suited to sprinting (required for schutzhund) than for the long haul (required for sheep herding).


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## Xeph

> Quote:
> 
> Is it possible that the reason the working line dogs will go excellent, but not select is because the slope is simply not correct, and it is more suited to sprinting (required for schutzhund) than for the long haul (required for sheep herding).


I doubt it. I saw real life tending dogs this summer...Beauceron. They don't have near the angulation of the Shepherds, but the dogs I saw were working that border continuously, and they're built more like the working lines


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## cliffson1

Selzer, the current select dogs cannot herd all day nor do they look like dogs that do herd all day. You don't have to speculate what the structure of dogs that herd all day is....there are dogs that do it and they don't look like VA dogs. Look up the kennels of people like Manfred Voight, Herbert Kind, Manfred Heyne, Willie Etzel, these are some of the greatest herders in German history and they have dogs that herd for real not just for trials. Look at the structure of these dogs and see if they are closer to VA dogs or workingline dogs. I know AKC people that have been in the breed for 40 plus years (and some being judges), and they don't have a clue about a real working dog other than what they have seen in a trial or heard. My point being there are and have always been real shepherd dogs and they don't have the theorectical type the show people would have you believe is necessary to herd all day!


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## Castlemaid

> Quote:One thing about structure. The way things are now, the dogs at the sieger show have to pass an endurance test which is so many miles at a trot while the handler rides a bike,


That is the AD, 12.5 miles, (20 kms). Good for the trainers, handlers and dogs who participate and earn the AD.

But the sloped structure or roach back is far from a requirement to successfully complete an AD and prove soundness and stamina. Many working-line breeders will do ADs with their straight-backed minimally angulated dogs, and my mixed-breed (who has no angulation at all) also completed an AD with no difficulty at all. 

So being able to complete an AD (assuming they earned it honestly, and didn't buy it at a midnight trial) is not "proof" that you need the show-line type angulation to be able to herd all day, as many other breeds of dogs with very different structure can complete ADs and also work all day, like the Beauceron that Xeph cited as an example. 

Though I have to admit that I have no idea if my mixed-breed would be able to stand up to the rigors of the show ring and run around in circles for hours - so can't comment on how her lack of angulation would hamper or aid her in that arena, and as a rule, I try to refrain from making assertions about things that I have little experience or knowledge about.


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## mjbgsd

It's just so interesting to read everyones' opinions.


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## Effie325

I am confused by the theory that so much slope and angulation is helpful to any endurance dog. I can't think of a single breed that goes all day and has a slope like a GSD. Look at sled dogs, hunting retrievers, other herding breeds- not a one has a slope or extreme angulation. All dogs bred to go, go, go all day. The original GSDs didn't have it either, certainly not in the extreme. So I have always been somewhat confused. I won't deny the beauty of certain Am lines dogs and German show lines dogs. I've even seen stunning working bred GSDs with a fair amount of angulation. I'm just wondering what the reasoning is behind so much angluation being so correct, or necessary at all for endurance.

Show bred Irish Setters do have pretty extreme angles sometimes too, but again- the real working ones do not.

The only other breed I can think of with even close to the extreme angles of a show bred GSD is the show bred Whippet in America, and they are definitely sprinters and lack the speed anyway of the more moderate racing bred Whippets.


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## cliffson1

Effie 325, You don't have to be confused, you already KNOW the answer as evidenced by the reflection on the many herding dogs and none have this kind of slope. This is a pleasing to the eye creation and nothing more. Pleasing to the eye allows you to make a profitable business selling all over the world in the German case. Pleasing to the eye and destruction of work ethic allows people who have never worked a dog become authorities and create a greater extreme. The problem with the American show people is that without any work mentality the extremes progressed to a point that the dogs are desired by no one outside of the United States and thus the monetary element is not as great. So they have become as the Brittish Alsation, nobody wants or has them but the people who created them. In Germany, because most of the breeders have titled or worked a dog, they have more integrity in the physical stucture, so the dog is appealing throughout the world and immensely popular with its pleasing to the eye look, still this came with a price of bare minimum functionality in what the dog was created for. Both of these dogs are no longer useful in the working sector in general terms, and isn't that a travesty to the dog that 50 years ago was considered the greatest working dog on earth????? SAD!


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## Effie325

Yes it is sad. I figured maybe I'm just too new to the breed, so what do I know. I do, however, have a pretty solid grasp of breeds in general and canine structure. My expertise is with coursing sighthounds (don't get me started on what the show ring has done to them) mostly, but still. I have purchased every book I can find about GSDs through history, and I have studied old pictures and pedigrees extensively. The slope appears as like magic in show dogs in the seventies or so. I don't get it- the founding father of the breed makes his position incredibly clear- but the country of origin is breeding for dogs on color and bizarre extreme movement. 

Anyway, I'm just trying to learn and make sense of it all! Thanks for the informative thread and info.


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## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: Xeph
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Is it possible that the reason the working line dogs will go excellent, but not select is because the slope is simply not correct, and it is more suited to sprinting (required for schutzhund) than for the long haul (required for sheep herding).
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt it. I saw real life tending dogs this summer...Beauceron. They don't have near the angulation of the Shepherds, but the dogs I saw were working that border continuously, and they're built more like the working lines
Click to expand...

 Not to mention the GSDs who were actually bred to do the real life work 100 years ago also look like working lines.

There is a very respected herding person around here that people with all different breeds take lessons from, some drive several hours even. There are several Amline people who take their CHs to her to get herding titles on. The dogs often do get titles, which is then used as "proof" that AKC CH GSDs can still work. The person giving the lessons though says that even when people bring the Amline GSDs with good working drive, their structure severely limits their ability and would prevent them from being able to do the work in real life (can't turn well, tire easily, can't catch up to sheep that leave the flock).


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## cliffson1

Agile same here. I have a good friend that is a herding instructor for all breeds 10 miles from here. She breeds border collies but she trains all breeds.Every puppy I get at around 4 to 8 month I introduce to sheep to test instinct. We have long talks and she says she actually dreads dealing with the american lines because they are so lacking in drive that it takes forever to progress. The other issue she constantly chirps about is the lack of resilency these dogs have. If they have one negative experience with the sheep then you are set back maybe three months on weekly training to get back to the original point, if you EVER get back to that point. She looks at me and says Cliff how could they do this to the GS and why don't these people breed to dogs like yours. I just smile and tell her that they got this thing figured out and they don't need working people mess up their conformation. She then says, but they don't have good conformation for herding...I say Shhhhhhhhhhhh, the emperor has no clothes!!!


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## G-burg

All I can say is- it seems to be getting progressively worse.. I don't get how people can watch this and think what they've created is correct german shepherd behavior/temperament.. These people obviously don't care that the path they've taken/choosen with this wonderful breed is incorrect and is so far from what the breed should be..

It really saddens you to watch...


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## GSD07

I've just had a chance to read this thread... Thanks for the interesting discussion that only proves the conclusions I'm arriving to myself. I feel very sorry for the dogs from the video and not only that are hostages of their owners' egos and greed


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## darylehret

There may be more hope than appears, if gsd herding and tending continues to grow, without becoming a political farce. I had a conversation just yesterday with a competitive herder (as well as judge) who appearantly has little appreciation for the "extremely angulated hock-walking," yadayada...

She is, however _very appreciable_ to my very talented herding dog's structure, who can work all day, no doubt about it. My Nickie looks like the spitting image in size, structure and expression of V Fenga vom Kirschental, pictured below.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DarylEhret I had a conversation just yesterday with a competitive herder (as well as judge) who appearantly has little appreciation for the "extremely angulated hock-walking," yadayada...


Along these lines...how does one find out which judges are appreciative of working lines and correct structure? I enter a good deal of shows, enough where I have to pick and choose because of time and money. It may be a small measure, but I'd rather pick the ones with judges that are not the ones always putting up the current show ring fad and knocking back the working lines simply because of their color pattern and pedigree. I'd rather pay my money to show under a judge that is a true judge, even if it still knocks my own dogs back.


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## Ocean

Fenga looks like a prototypical tending dog. Her structure is built for running more than stylistic trotting and anyone who has actually done tending knows that dogs do more running (galloping) than trotting while doing the work. Trotting is simply not fast enough when you have to manage 100+ sheep. She is also extremely lean as these dogs do the equivalent of a marathon run a day, and need the agility to twist and turn quickly. (and I believe Fenga lived until 12 even with all the "marathon running.")
The intense expression on her eyes and face is also a necessity because in tending work the sheep are not really doing much for most of the day. They're just standing around munching on grass. So the tending dog needs "internal intensity", an inner drive to work that does not depend on "action generated stimulus" (the classical prey drive we usually refer to). These dogs will be up for it even if nothing is moving.


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## Effie325

> Originally Posted By: DarylEhretThere may be more hope than appears, if gsd herding and tending continues to grow, without becoming a political farce. I had a conversation just yesterday with a competitive herder (as well as judge) who appearantly has little appreciation for the "extremely angulated hock-walking," yadayada...
> 
> She is, however _very appreciable_ to my very talented herding dog's structure, who can work all day, no doubt about it. My Nickie looks like the spitting image in size, structure and expression of V Fenga vom Kirschental, pictured below.


Very interesting. I checked out your website- WOW. I LOVE your dogs. Keep up the good work.


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## Ocean

Another interesting phenomenon related to the thread. I have seen some working line puppies who were placed in pure pet homes at 8 weeks, had zero schutzhund training and even some bite inhibition, then the owner got interested in recreational schutzhund or protection training later. They were brought to the shutzhund field at two years old or older and made to face a helper with a sleeve for the first time in their lives. These dogs reacted better to the situation than the showline "SchH 3" dogs in the Sieger show video.
(One of the best ones I've seen was a dog descended from Bodo Lierberg when he was brought to the states in the 70s then bred in BYB fashion since then.)
Training is not a variable in this case, it's all genetics. I'm sure some of the long time breeders have a similar story of a pet home puppy. A strong dog will confront even if it sees a helper for the first time in its life when its already an adult. In these videos the dogs are simply not confronting the helper. In fact, they are not even confronting the environment and the whole situation. You see avoidance. The dogs were expecting playtime and the whole situation was too stressful.
That's the nice thing about a good adult GSD w/zero training when it sees a helper for the first time. It is not playtime for the dog. Then you really see its genes at work.


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## Vandal

> Quote: Another interesting phenomenon related to the thread. I have seen some working line puppies who were placed in pure pet homes at 8 weeks, had zero schutzhund training and even some bite inhibition, then the owner got interested in recreational schutzhund or protection training later. They were brought to the shutzhund field at two years old or older and made to face a helper with a sleeve for the first time in their lives. These dogs reacted better to the situation than the showline "SchH 3" dogs in the Sieger show video.


What is really striking about this comment is that it even needs to be explained. Used to be this was expected in the GSD where he would defend his owner without all the "training techniques" , teaching the dog "the game", and all the other BS that has become what is now known as SchH. I can't tell you how many dogs I have seen over the years that did just what you described. That is what a GSD is supposed to do! It is the protective instinct but is now more often something that is completely misunderstood by a huge majority of people who think aggression is a medical problem..low thyroid perhaps? 

Things are too much about rag chasing and prey work now. I find all of it, especially the ignorance in the people, so sad and disturbing. The whole thing is headed over the waterfall but the people in the boat refuse to see what is coming and try to explain away that loud rumbling noise downstream. 

Now we have all the elation about Javir at the Sieger Show. So what? IMO, the show people are using the working dogs for cover. They have NO interest in that dog or his offspring. Will all the working dogs now show up at the Sieger Show? If they do, I fear for the future of that side of the breed and the working lines already have their own problems. The idea they should be bred to the show lines is also something I find absolutely horrifying. What the Sieger Show has to do with working dogs is a complete mystery to me. 
I wish people would really take the time to learn about the dogs vs just SchH or showing, and then listen to their own ears and see with their own eyes, instead of repeating everything they read....the dogs would just be so much better off .


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## lhczth

As usual, good post Anne.


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## Bugler

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1 Look up the kennels of people like Manfred Voight, Herbert Kind, Manfred Heyne, Willie Etzel, these are some of the greatest herders in German history and they have dogs that herd for real not just for trials. Look at the structure of these dogs and see if they are closer to VA dogs or workingline dogs.


Would you post some links to these types of kennels? Thanks for posting your opinions as I always find them interesting/informative
Bryan


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## cliffson1

You can probably google those names or you can look up the National Herding Championships in Germay and you will see these names and or articles by these people. I know these names from years and years of digesting information on the breed in Europe.
Cliff


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## crackem

Just in case this thread starts to get pushed down the thread list, I'm hoping it is saved by a few and brought up periodically. It really is one of the better topics and threads i've seen on a message board.


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## Chris Wild

I made this thread a sticky. I agree it's one of the best ones ever on this board!


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## crackem

oh, good, I didn't realize, I always just hit new posts, but it's good to know I can go to the regular forum and find it someday in the future when i've forgotten what I read


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## Kayos and Havoc

Cool thanks for doing that Chris!! I have lwarned much more about temper than I knew before and that is always good.


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## ShatteringGlass

Dalmatians are a prime example of a breed whose purpose was to gait ALL DAY. Dals were bred to run along with horse drawn carriages, guardng the horses and coach. Dals have no where near the angles that showline GSDs have. The Dalmatian club of America offers Road Trial titles for Dalmatians. The Dalmatian must coach along their handler who is on horseback. The test also has obedience portions. For the RD (Road Dog) title, the dog must complete 12.5 miles under 3 hours. For the RDX (Road Dog Excellent) the dog and handler must complete 25 miles in under 6 hours.


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## Kayos and Havoc

That is harder than the AD. My friend with a Dal has an RD on him. He is very sound mentally and physically.


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## cliffson1

Kelly, you are so right. Showdog angulation has nothing to do with any type of practical function whatsoever. It is a figment of the show world's imagination and destructive to the breed. It is a very selfish goal to please people's wants and desires for beauty.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Cliftonandperson you are over your PM limit.........


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## cliffson1

Not any more!!!


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## Kayos and Havoc

Cool! I had a PM to send you and I copied it into a Word document to keep and it is at work! So tomorrow I will post it.


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## cliffson1

I wish I knew how to copy something to word and save it....will not get that far this lifetime....LOL


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## Doc

Cliff,

If you find me a large dog with Bernd or Bodo Lierberg close up, I'll teach you how to copy, cut, and paste! ROFLMBO


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## Kayos and Havoc

Gsoh, I thought I was bad with confusers... I mean computers. PM sent.

Ya just highlight right click copy click where you want it to go and right click again and paste. Easy!


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## cliffson1

Doc, Kathy....LOL....answered your pm Kathy...peace!


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## Doc

Cliff,

Is that a yes or no? 

I was looking at some DDR sites earlier and am now completely twisted! Do some of the DDR lines go back to the dogs we both respect and miss?


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## cliffson1

Well, the dogs that have Held vom Ritterberg in them do. I have a female that's father is 2-3,4 on Held. Held's mother Burga vom haus himpel is linebred 2-2 on Bernd!! So this female of mine has a nice saturation of Bernd who is arguably the greatest GSD ever produced. (VA-3 in conformation, workingdog of the highest caliber, and producer of many many working dogs of highest caliber. Notwithstanding thru Held behind many of the top Czech lines). Fabulous dog and the type I want my stock grounded in....structure and working in one package!


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## Ocean

Part of the reason why the Fat Lady has Begun to Sing? (disclaimer: not saying anything about the dog, looking for comments on the training)


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## Vandal

I will comment on the dog . He actually looks like he could be a decent dog. Good bite and he fights when he is hit with the stick. The training is simply boring and too much about control. This is one reason I, personally, do not like e-collars. It is just too darn easy for the people holding the controller to push the button all the time. 

Some of the show dogs actually have some decent amounts of aggression but it seems that most people, ( working and show alike), do not understand how to work with that. They just try to control/suppress it all the time vs channeling it.

I don't even know what else to say about the video. I mean, I have seen worse, working people can be just as boring but the dogs they work have more drive, so, it is not as noticeable how crappy their work is. 

Somewhere we got away from making the training fun, for everyone, handlers and dogs included. It is all about precision and points or passing protection, so the dog can trot around the ring. It is no where near as entertaining as it used to be, especially if you are spectating. It is boring....like watching golf. No more spectacular performances in protection, it's mostly all about obedience now.


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## mjbgsd

> No more spectacular performances in protection, it's mostly all about obedience now.


I've noticed that too.


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## Mrs.K

Catu said:


> But the worst part is the the title of the video is that the HELPERS are the ones who made the dogs to work so bad


Actually, the title doesn't say anything about the Helpers work. It only says 

"Some examples of the Helper Work on the Siegershow" 

Thats it.


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## Jack's Dad

Should be required reading. 

Where the GSD is headed and who is primarily responsible for a lot of the s


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## Josie/Zeus

Oh my gosh, how embarrassing was that. Geesh.


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## Jack's Dad

Wow! I actually thought reviving a thread that has tremendous value with regard to the direction of the breed would get more attention.

I guess there are bigger fish to fry on the board.


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## onyx'girl

After 225 posts, what more can be added? Other than the video 'has been removed by the user' in post 219


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## Jack's Dad

onyx'girl said:


> After 225 posts, what more can be added? Other than the video 'has been removed by the user' in post 219


Well I revived it because I don't think a lot of people, especially newer ones go to places like The Breed Standard section of the forum and read the stickies. Especially one with a title like this one.

If an individual needs the video to figure out what people are talking about then there is no point in them reading this thread. I'll let it go peacefully back to the archives.


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## onyx'girl

It is a good thread, and should be a sticky. Or is it already? 
I seldom read the board from the forum format, usually just hit the new posts tab up top.


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## Josie/Zeus

Thanks for reviving this thread. Today was the first time I've seen that video, holy cow. Thank God my showline isn't like those dogs, he would have been thrown out of PSA already. Phew!


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## paulag1955

I'm very glad this thread was brought to the top. I'm reading through it a few pages at a time.


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## Shaina

Seriously breaks my heart to watch that video. It is so embarrassing to see.. Gives the sport a terrible name.


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## Beau

Jack's Dad said:


> Well I revived it because I don't think a lot of people, especially newer ones go to places like The Breed Standard section of the forum and read the stickies. Especially one with a title like this one.
> 
> If an individual needs the video to figure out what people are talking about then there is no point in them reading this thread. I'll let it go peacefully back to the archives.


Thanks for bringing this back Andy!

Not sure I would have found it on my own. Very interesting discussion, and really does make you wonder about the future of the breed.

Between this thread, the "bad breeder" thread, and the "I want to breed my dog" thread(s), I've learned quite a bit this last week. 

Mostly, that I don't know as much as I thought I did.


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## Jack's Dad

Want to stretch your brain some more.


The forums, in General Breeding, has another sticky thread. "Iceberg Breeders".

One of my all time favorites. Talk about letting a thread letting you know what you don't know.

I had a hard time following it because I have so much to learn.


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## Beau

LOL....I started reading that thread some time back, got confused trying to follow some of the logic and quit. 

I think I'll try it again!


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## Jack's Dad

Beau:

If Iceberg Breeders is too much for one sitting then look at," Front Angulation of Working Lines" in Breed Standard forum.

I was reading that and at some point asked myself, Why?

I started to think I should just get rid of my dogs and get pet rocks.

Or maybe those ch ch ch chia things.


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## Whiteshepherds

Jack's Dad said:


> . "Iceberg Breeders".


That's the "The more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know thread."  (myself included)


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## Fast

What's all of this whining and hand wringing about? This has been a constant for the last 20 years. Every year there are the big national shows. Every year there is wailing and self righteous indignation. And every year you will do NOTHING to remedy the problem. Fix it or shut up, lay back and get what you deserve.


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## Belmont

My puppy is half Working (Father) and half Show (Mother), and he has way more prey drive than these dogs.


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## carmspack

thank you so much for the thread Vandal, and thanks for bringing it back to life Jack's Dad Andy.

"The thing is this site seems to be disproportionately Working lines. Which is ok. But the one think the showlines have, our big party is the Sieger show. I guess you are all peeved because we consider it the top dog in the world, the World Sieger. "

Make sure you invite the Fat Lady - -- cue the music.

I have never seen this thread nor the youtube . I made a point of reading each and every post - all 24 pages .

I loved the article written by Claudia Romard re -VanGogh breeder. If Wildo is reading this - go back and read the article - the man being interviewed makes a point of mentioning speed in this breed - and mentions some possible issues with nerve .

The structure of the dogs shown in the youtube are useless for endurance. I have been to enough AD tests with my own dogs - all pass - even Kilo who in the heat of the hottest of summers and nearly 10 years of age ran beside the bike in a calm rhythm -- we arrived at the finish point so far ahead of the "pack" that I sincerely questioned whether I had pulled up the right driveway . There were show line dogs who by theory with conformation as the priority should have been passing us -- well that was not the case - I believe one got pulled - the other not sure was bringing up the rear. This more than one occassion - first one I did the judge was Fred Pfeifle if any Ontarians remember him , a supporter of Schutzhund and SV style programs. Same thing . I had a mother , daughter team with me that day - both qualified easily.
Herding is not a marathon one day event -- it is the same old same old , day in day out , 7 days a week. See how long those show line dogs would do. Not only physical stamina , MENTAL stamina , and that is something to be understood, found and selected for within a pedigree. 
There were stories of early dogs having been on the field working sheep , trotting beside the owners bike for 15 - 20 miles, doing the trial and then trotting back to work again . That is what the conformation should allow you to do.
Tracking requires mental stamina - dogs without focus exhaust themselves or fail to dedicate altogether . 

And whoever said it -- they do not have genetic obedience -- the lines they are made of exclude "genetic obedience" which is strongest in OLD herding lines . The show lines have concentrated on lines opposite from this -- see the IceBerg breeders - see the current Herding Genetics - see "Nickolas" (pedigree analysis will be given near future) (after I do phgsds Kessy again) 

Vandal's OP is three years old. 
Let's see if the dogs , a new generation , of 2012 SS, are any different. I really really , really doubt it .

Here is a good model for the show people to aspire to WilmothHaus - WenzelMozilla/4.0 (vBSEO; http://www.vbseo.com) V1 Wenzel von der Edelquelle - German Shepherd Dog
based on the web site pictures the only thing that stuck out was his somewhat heavy going over the A frame - I am used to winged dogs that would almost be perching on the top with the first leap.
Nice conformation . 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Xeph

I have see Wenzel in person more than once. He is a very handsome, substantial dog. I do have to admit that I do not personally feel he is the best mover, but he is a dog I can appreciate.


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## carmspack

movement is not the issue here , that is secondary to temperament and character and drives . That is what got us into this mess . He looks like the kind of dog that show line people should be looking at for their breeding to improve on working ability and courage, and he does have nice structure and no roach.


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## Xeph

Carmen, I brought up the movement because of your mentioning of the AD. Not saying this is a bad dog. He's pleasing to my eye. I cannot stand dogs with roached backs myself. Curvature of the spine is not attractive (or correct).


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## RebelGSD

Can somebody explain it to me, was this a real Sieger Show or is this some kind of a joke? If this was a real show how did these dogs place? It looked like a poor training session to me, not a show, just unbelievable. My trainer would have refused to work with dogs like this. Even my weak dog that was unsuited for Sch was better than this. 
I just cannot believe what I am seeing, those poor dogs!


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## sarah1366

To much slope and angulation is not beneficial to this breed I've grown up around gsds and I'm now 47 my mum bred gsds for 30 years she would be ashamed if how this breed and many others been destroyed by massive curve on the back there meant to be a big powerfully strong breed with long endurance what's been bred now wouldn't be able to do this most if the dogs I had was based on uran vom wilde stiegerland and what superb dogs came from that breeding sound temperament good hips and just a gentle slope and the kennel club have alot to answer for saddens me see this 

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## carmspack

revisited this thread -- some great points by Vandal, Cliff and Ocean . Where is Ocean ?


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