# Black and Tan puppy?



## Chlobee (Feb 7, 2018)

Hi, sorry for another post on this but I was told my pup was bicolour originally but lots of people have said recently he is black and tan.
I love him either way, but I won't call him bicolour if he's not. He does have some white under his chin and belly so I understand the black and tan but he also has the penciling on his feet that I was told is bicolour. 
He is only 21 weeks old (I took that pic today).
Thanks.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Nice dark face, but I would consider and expect him to mature into a B&T blanket back. What color were his parents?

There is a great example of a bi color puppy around the same age... I can’t find the post but the pups name is Luther.


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## Chlobee (Feb 7, 2018)

His mother is a standard black and tan..father was a stud. I believe technically black and tan also. He had more tan markings on face etc than my pup but is also very dark.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Bi-color dogs typically only have tan on their feet and legs. None on the head, none anywhere else! 

Your dog in the picture, is a blanket back....beautiful, and perfect, just not a bi-color based on the lightness in his face. Here's a pic of my pup's sire who is a true bi-color for comparison...


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

I would say your puppy is a bi-colour purely because of the dark colouring on his heels. The biggest difference between a blanket back and a bi-colour is the pencilling on their toes and the tar heels. 

Sprague's German Shepherds | California German Shepherd Dog Breeder

This shows some good variations and descriptions.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the pup under discussion is NOT a bi color! It is a black and tan. A bi color has no facial tan, no chest spots, no bib...."tar heels" do not make a black and tan into a bi-color........these are generally considered to be a marker of a dog carrying a black recessive. The dog posted by Tim IS a bi-color


Lee


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## davidvqz97 (Feb 7, 2018)

is this a sable puppy? anybody know


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My boy looked a lot like your guy at that age. Definitely just a black and tan boy. Here are some pics to compare. 

5 months vs 5-6 years old... He is going to be 9 in two months.


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## Chlobee (Feb 7, 2018)

Aww he's gorgeous... I think that yes mine will be similar but with a black face. I do think the lighter patches on their face give more expression so I will miss that in him but I love him all the same.


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## JaxsMom (Dec 31, 2017)

Wow Elizabeth, he is stunning! Is that what I can expect Jax will look like later in life? Because at 7 months he looks a lot like yours as a pup!


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## willoglen (Aug 4, 2013)

This is Luther, photo taken Sunday (he was 4 months old yesterday). Ignore the muddy nose, please. It rained all morning....

He had lighter patches on his chest and very faint spots over his eyes when he was younger, but they are steadily disappearing. 

Lee, is Luther a bicolor? I’m new to this to, and I also thought that the penciling and tar heels determined the bicolor.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Luther is a bi color


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## willoglen (Aug 4, 2013)

Photo of Luther at 10 weeks, showing the tan patches on chest and cheeks (these are all but gone now)


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Toe 'penciling' and 'tar heels' are typical of bicolor, but don't necessarily mean the dog is bicolor. Bicolor dogs don't lighten as they age, and sometimes get darker.

Luther is bicolor, the dog in the original post is blanket black and tan.


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## willoglen (Aug 4, 2013)

Thanks for the replies! I am not trying to hijack this thread, but I think the OP and I are both trying to determine where the “line” between Black and Tan and Bicolor is. It’s confusing for us newbies! I think I understand — my previous GSD was a typical saddle pattern. His tan became more pronounced as he got older, whereas Luther is losing his tan. Below is a photo of Luther’s dam. Is she a bicolor as well? Or does the tan on her chest and cheeks make her a Black and Tan?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

For the newbies: Color Genetics in German Shepherds
Nerd out!

ETA: the presence of pencil toes and tar heels does not confirm that a dog is bi color, however it’s always been my understanding that the absence of them confirms that they are not.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Varying shades of bi-color. Bi-colors can have some face color and chest markings. They will all have tar heals, no color behind the ears, and most have the toe penciling.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@lhczth

What exactly determines a bi-color? I've always read a tan vent with the rest of the area being black? Or is that just the way to determine when a puppy?


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## willoglen (Aug 4, 2013)

I read “somewhere” that a bicolor was best described as black with tan points, as seen in Rottweilers and Dobermans. This is the definition that I have been using, but (for all the experienced people), is it correct? I do know that there is currently no DNA test that can distinguish between “as” (saddle) and “at” (bicolor). The DNA is reported as “at” (black and tan). Gene expression at the A locus is typically “incomplete” dominance, meaning that the “recessive” gene may show some phenotypical expression. FWIW, I recently got into AQHA horses, and am still trying to learn all of their color descriptions! I’ve had Thoroughbreds all my life, which are bay/dk brown, grey/roan, chestnut, or black! (Now palominos are recognized, but they used to be registered in the Jockey Club as chestnut!)


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Every bi-color that I have seen had tar heels and toe penciling except the dog I posted last in my above post. He produced bi-color, though, and did not carry the black recessive. Interestingly, the sire of my current litter, who is a bi-color, also has never produced a black puppy. Most bi-colors seem to carry the black recessive. 

Even Dobes can have the bow tie on the chest, eye dots and maybe cheek markings and can vary in how much black is on the legs. Not sure about Rotts. Haven't paid as much attention to them. 

There is new research on color genetics that Christine Kemper is good at explaining.

And, yes, that is usually the best way to tell between a black puppy and a very dark bi-color. I'll see if I can find a puppy photo of a bi.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Two puppies. First at 4 days and 10 days. Second at 4, 10 and 15 days. Both were definitely bi-color when they matured.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Does the amount of black at birth dictate how much black they will retain as adults? Or will that vary as some of the black recedes?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> Does the amount of black at birth dictate how much black they will retain as adults? Or will that vary as some of the black recedes?


It seems to depend on other genes. I have seen some extremely black showline puppies one would have sworn would be blanketed who turn into just nicely saddled dogs when they mature. 

I have 4 black/tan pups in my current litter. At birth they all pretty much looked the same. A couple of them, at 2 weeks, have a bit more of a grayish color to their tan markings on their back legs. I am guessing they will probably have more extensive blankets than the other two. I always have to go back and look at puppy pictures of my different black/tan puppies at this age to get an idea of future color. Interestingly, they all have to carry the same basic genes getting b/t from mom and the bi-color from dad (who doesn't seem to carry black). It will just depend on what other modifying genes they inherited. I see the same in the 3 sable pups. They inherited sable from mom so the bi from dad and one male is VERY dark and the other two are similar in a more grayish dark color.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I am by no means an expert, but I agree with lhczth.

I have a bi-color. At least that is what my breeder told me...lol. He has toe penciling (which you can see in his puppy pic), tar heels, is black on his stomach, but does have tan on his face and neck. From the various GSD people I've talked to, I've never been told that bi-colors can only be black on the face. I would think that being all black on the face is just one version of bi-colored. My dog has more black than a blanket back, but is not pure black. His parents were the same:

Sire:

https://da.working-dog.com/dogs-details/2577734/Jabina-Zlatan

Dam:

https://en.working-dog.com/dogs-details/1029537/Kapona-vom-Eichenluft


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