# Male or female puppy for first working dog?



## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm getting a GSD puppy (hopefully if it works out) from a specific breeding from west german working lines that I'd absolutely love a puppy from later this year, supposed to be very balanced and stable dogs. We're starting new to schutzhund and this is my first working shepherd.

For my question in the title, I've now been told different opinions on this... and all these opinions sound valid and have merit. So I'd love to hear even more opinions from those who have experience, obviously to confuse myself even more LOL

Are females less forgiving of mistakes, and what kind of mistakes specifically? Are females always more independent than males? Should I be starting with a male or female puppy as my first working dog? Or are males always more stable? Or does it depend on the lines/breedings? etc etc... laughs


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it absolutely depends on the breeding.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

From what I have observed and learned, females are more serious, not 'as forgiving' and if you get a really nice bitch...you are blessed! I enjoy watching a strong female in the sport, they tend to be attention getters due to their work ethic and power.

Males generally are slower to mature than females, so that may play into the training. 
Females also have to deal with heat cycles, which again, plays into training.

If you are not into breeding, and just want a great dog to compete with, I'd chose a male.
As far as independence, stability, that does depend on the genetics.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Depends on the lines and the dogs in the pedigree. I have a female who is incredibly sweet and loving, but also very stubborn. High drive and will not quit until the job is done or she collapses. But those are the lines she comes from and those behaviors could be traced through her pedigree. 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

I see, thanks for the replies! Actually depending on the breeding/pedigree makes total sense... that would explain why everyone I've talked to has such different opinions, since each person has experience with different dogs/lines lol. I guess I should be picking a gender depending on the litter.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My females have always been my cuddlers. My males have never been cuddly. My current boy will lay his head on my lap for hours, but gosh forbid I try to hug him, he acts like I am digging his nonexistent ovaries out with a jagged pinky nail. My girls will curl up on me, spoon, totally bask in contact. 

My females matured quicker and were always intense in the work. My boys were late bloomers. My boy now is 4 yo and I am finally seeing what I want to in him drive and work ethic wise. 

I love both sexes for different things. And each dog is an individual. So my experiences won't be everyone's. I want to breed one day. Maybe in the next decade. So I am already starting a search for the lines I want to start with for a good female. But I do really really love my boys. I love the fact that they "command" a room. I love their presence. 

Pick the dog, or rather, have the breeder pick the dog, regardless of sex, that will be most likely to succeed in your home. Don't get hung up on the gender.


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Pick the dog, or rather, have the breeder pick the dog, regardless of sex, that will be most likely to succeed in your home. Don't get hung up on the gender.


Good point! I may do that after all. And thanks for the insight.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

I wish my female was a cuddler. 

She likes to be pet and scratched but needs her space on the bed and isn't the sort to cuddle up next to you...

And this is why my new floofy male will be a cuddler. I will make it so!

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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Great advice from everyone. Personally I want a female because I want the size to be more manageable for myself, plus my boyfriend would like to have a male later on down the road. But, like others have said, if a litter were produced and the females were high drive whereas I wanted a medium drive, I would take a male if the breeder suggested it were best.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

It all depends on the individual dog, but generally anyone serious about competition especially new handlers I would always advise a male. Here is my two cents. Males do mature slower to an extent, but seem to be much more consistent. Males seem to be much more forgiving to training mistakes. Females seem to hold grudges and remember everything! Hormones and heat cycles are also a negative for females IMO. All that being said, I like my females. Females work for me and my training style. My wife on the other hand after competing with both a male and female, said she would never work another female again. So take all that for what it's worth.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My females line is known to produce pretty consistent strong females. I absolutely love her even though she is probably too much dog for s new handler.

I don't know if it's a female thing, genetics or just her but she has no problem showing me she is displeased with me if I make a mistake or piss her off. She isn't nasty about it but she will hold a grudge for a little bit. I never thought that statement to be true until I started diving deeper into our training (occurs in protection when the drive is high and she wants what she wants but can't have it).

I like that she is a soaking wet 65lbs and can flip a decoy on their butt with her speed, intensity and power. I like that she is sweet as pie off the field, cuddles and carries around stuffies like nursing babies but then comes to the field and can hold her own.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If you trust your breeder then let them decide what would be best for you especially if you don't have a preference. I like working females, but finding a strong female isn't as easy as finding a good suitable male. Most females are not as forgiving as males. They can get flaky when in heat and, yes, heat cycles can interfere with training and trialing. They tend to learn things the first time so if you make a mistake you will have a tough time retraining. Males seem to be more malleable. Females also think a lot more than males and can find new and improved ways to do things so they tend to need a handler that is always one step ahead. I have also found them more likely to do the "my dog has never done that before" in a trial. Males are just steadier. Some of my girls are cuddly and others have acted like I was torturing them if I wanted to love on them. 

I did say I prefer working females. Sometimes I think I am a masochist.  I find male dogs annoying. Enjoy them as young dogs, but then they become boys and have their boy brains and I have to sell them. As puppies they can have the attention span of a gnat and I swear that they are always in "heat".  For first time handlers, though, they can be much more forgiving. Males usually are larger and at times stronger willed which could be too much for a first time handler. 

Of course we are all generalizing. One thing to keep in mind, if you currently have a female or plan on getting another dog in the future, females tend to not co-exist well (sometimes it works). With two girls in the house, be prepared to live in a gated community or crate and rotate. Two boys seems to work more often or a boy and a girl.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

What is your female's breeding? Always like to know about strong female lines. 




elisabeth_00117 said:


> My females line is known to produce pretty consistent strong females. I absolutely love her even though she is probably too much dog for s new handler.
> 
> I don't know if it's a female thing, genetics or just her but she has no problem showing me she is displeased with me if I make a mistake or piss her off. She isn't nasty about it but she will hold a grudge for a little bit. I never thought that statement to be true until I started diving deeper into our training (occurs in protection when the drive is high and she wants what she wants but can't have it).
> 
> I like that she is a soaking wet 65lbs and can flip a decoy on their butt with her speed, intensity and power. I like that she is sweet as pie off the field, cuddles and carries around stuffies like nursing babies but then comes to the field and can hold her own.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LancerandRara said:


> I see, thanks for the replies! Actually depending on the breeding/pedigree makes total sense... that would explain why everyone I've talked to has such different opinions, since each person has experience with different dogs/lines lol. I guess I should be picking a gender depending on the litter.


Hi, it really doesn't matter. I've had very experienced KNPV trainers tell me that they don't even look at the pedigree, they look at each individual dog. Now, this may be because KNPV dogs can pretty much all be traced back to common ancestors but it should apply to WGWL as well. Your only job is to tell the breeder about your experience level and what exactly you are looking for in the pup. If they are good breeders they observe, test, and take notes on every pup in the litter and they match them to the right owners accordingly. I posted this in a different thread but it can help you as well; I was looking to get a GSD to be used mainly for estate protection, the breeder told me exactly which traits make up the best estate protection dogs from her 30 years of experience. She then told me that she will test and look for those traits to match me with the right pup, and if this litter doesn't have any dogs that exhibit those traits then she will wait for the next litter. That is what I consider a great breeder. So I wouldn't pick a dog based on sex, but based on their individual traits. The only time I would pick a dog based on sex was if I already had a male/female in the house and can't have 2 males or 2 females, because that is one generalization that holds true. 2 males will probably fight more, and 2 females also.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Hi, it really doesn't matter. I've had very experienced KNPV trainers tell me that they don't even look at the pedigree, they look at each individual dog. Now, this may be because KNPV dogs can pretty much all be traced back to common ancestors but it should apply to WGWL as well. Your only job is to tell the breeder about your experience level and what exactly you are looking for in the pup. If they are good breeders they observe, test, and take notes on every pup in the litter and they match them to the right owners accordingly. I posted this in a different thread but it can help you as well; I was looking to get a GSD to be used mainly for estate protection, the breeder told me exactly which traits make up the best estate protection dogs from her 30 years of experience. She then told me that she will test and look for those traits to match me with the right pup, and if this litter doesn't have any dogs that exhibit those traits then she will wait for the next litter. That is what I consider a great breeder. So I wouldn't pick a dog based on sex, but based on their individual traits. The only time I would pick a dog based on sex was if I already had a male/female in the house and can't have 2 males or 2 females, because that is one generalization that holds true. 2 males will probably fight more, and 2 females also.


So by your explanation, I can get the wl gsd anywhere, and pairing a certain dam and sire together is not necessary? Just hope a puppy that fits my criteria pops up?


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

Thanks for the advice and insight everyone!



Julian G said:


> Hi, it really doesn't matter. I've had very experienced KNPV trainers tell me that they don't even look at the pedigree, they look at each individual dog. Now, this may be because KNPV dogs can pretty much all be traced back to common ancestors but it should apply to WGWL as well.


I'm new to GSD's but not genetics, and I'm not sure I agree! Pedigree and breeding focus absolutely matters as a first step, and then you can let the breeder pick out a puppy for your specific needs, imo. It just stacks the odds of finding what you want way in your favor.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> So by your explanation, I can get the wl gsd anywhere, and pairing a certain dam and sire together is not necessary? Just hope a puppy that fits my criteria pops up?


No. But nice try.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> No. But nice try.


So you're post is wrong? You say pedigrees don't matter. Negating the work that breeders put into their program. Or could you clarify your statement? Because it sounds like misinformation.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> Hi, it really doesn't matter. I've had very experienced KNPV trainers tell me that they don't even look at the pedigree, they look at each individual dog. Now, this may be because KNPV dogs can pretty much all be traced back to common ancestors but it should apply to WGWL as well. Your only job is to tell the breeder about your experience level and what exactly you are looking for in the pup. If they are good breeders they observe, test, and take notes on every pup in the litter and they match them to the right owners accordingly. I posted this in a different thread but it can help you as well; I was looking to get a GSD to be used mainly for estate protection, the breeder told me exactly which traits make up the best estate protection dogs from her 30 years of experience. She then told me that she will test and look for those traits to match me with the right pup, and if this litter doesn't have any dogs that exhibit those traits then she will wait for the next litter. That is what I consider a great breeder. So I wouldn't pick a dog based on sex, but based on their individual traits. The only time I would pick a dog based on sex was if I already had a male/female in the house and can't have 2 males or 2 females, because that is one generalization that holds true. 2 males will probably fight more, and 2 females also.


The only time pedigree doesn't matter is if you are looking for a nice pet from a backyard breeder, because then you wouldn't care enough for it to be important. If someone is a serious prospective dog owner and wants a dog for anything but pet purposes, the responsible way to find a dog is to learn to read a pedigree and know what lines they are looking at. Then choosing a dog based on the additional requirements they have and need in a dog. I understand learning to read a pedigree can be too complicated for some people, so they don't or can't make the effort to learn to read one, but it really isn't that hard to figure out after a while.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I think it all depends on the dog. Females are my preference being a first time WL handler, but I don't have tons of experience, just know the two females I've had. I like the smaller size, the fact that they are less likely to roam, their more feminine look, and just feel like I can relate to a female more. It also seems like females live longer than males.

I have noticed that unless they have an interest in breeding, most of the more experienced handlers at club have males and prefer them over females. I've heard a lot that have had females prior to getting males say they will never get a female again. 
Negatives I have noticed in having a female are mainly that some clubs do not allow females in heat to train. You also have to keep a very close watch on them while they are in heat and it can be very messy/smelly. My dog does not act really any different training in heat. 
Negatives with males I see is that they are usually bigger and may be harder to control when young. Most also usually mark a lot


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> So you're post is wrong? You say pedigrees don't matter. Negating the work that breeders put into their program. Or could you clarify your statement? Because it sounds like misinformation.





LuvShepherds said:


> The only time pedigree doesn't matter is if you are looking for a nice pet from a backyard breeder, because then you wouldn't care enough for it to be important. If someone is a serious prospective dog owner and wants a dog for anything but pet purposes, the responsible way to find a dog is to learn to read a pedigree and know what lines they are looking at. Then choosing a dog based on the additional requirements they have and need in a dog. I understand learning to read a pedigree can be too complicated for some people, so they don't or can't make the effort to learn to read one, but it really isn't that hard to figure out after a while.


I know how to read pedigrees, don't make assumptions. Maybe it's different with WGWL's, maybe there are thousands of completely different lines, but in KNPV almost all of the pedigrees have a common ancestor somewhere down the line. I used to be hung up on lines, even made threads about it. Then I saw supposedly "very serious" lines produce not so serious offspring, and I saw calmer lines produce absolute beasts. Yes genetics matters, of coarse it does, but now I look at the individual dog or pup a lot closer than I do lines. Again, maybe the GSD is just so abundantly bred that you have to study the lineage like a scholar, but speaking from a KNPV standpoint the genetics and lines are very similar, it's not a very large club so the genetics is there and I don't have to worry about what's running through the dogs veins. Hopefully it stays that way, it used to be that way with GSDs. For now, while it's still that way I can look past the lines and judge the individual dog on his own. A czech working line is a czech working line, a DDR should be a DDR, then tell me why there are so many disappointed owners who expected a certain kind of dog from a particular breeding but got something completely different? It happens to the most experienced owners and breeders. I was speaking with someone on this forum who was adamant about getting a pup from a particular sire and dam, waited 2 years expecting a certain kind of dog. What he got was a lemon. Then another guy wanted a lower drive calmer working line pup and by the time he was 8 months old he sold it to a cop because he was too serious. All I'm saying is don't get too hung up on the lines because there's a good chance that the offspring will not act the same way the sire or dam does. But you do whatever works for you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

astrovan2487 said:


> I think it all depends on the dog. Females are my preference being a first time WL handler, but I don't have tons of experience, just know the two females I've had. I like the smaller size, the fact that they are less likely to roam, their more feminine look, and just feel like I can relate to a female more. It also seems like females live longer than males.
> 
> I have noticed that unless they have an interest in breeding, most of the more experienced handlers at club have males and prefer them over females. I've heard a lot that have had females prior to getting males say they will never get a female again.
> Negatives I have noticed in *having a female are mainly that some clubs do not allow females in heat to train.* You also have to keep a very close watch on them while they are in heat and it can be very messy/smelly. My dog does not act really any different training in heat.
> Negatives with males I see is that they are usually bigger and may be harder to control when young. Most also usually mark a lot


I am surprised at the bolded sentence. Trialing with a bitch in heat is allowed, though they have to go last. Where I train it is a given there will be a bitch in heat, my males learn to work through it, as distracting as it is.
If we never allowed the females to work when they are coming in, or full blown heat then 1/2 the dogs in the club would be absent often! 
If your male cannot train with the scent of a female in season, he'll probably not do well in trial if there is one on the grounds. Best to train away and deal with it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Agree with this! I think clubs that don't allow females in heat to train are setting themselves up to fail. 

We have a new club member who, out of consideration, left his female in heat at home one day. I'm the only one in our club at the moment with an intact male, but I encouraged him to bring her out the next time. Always looking for training/proofing opportunities.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I belonged to a club that did not allow females in heat-but that was because the property owner did not want females in heat on the property- other clubs were fine with it...


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I was encouraged to bring Athena to club when she was in heat. They said if she is in heat during a trial then she needed to be able to work through it. Same with the males. If they never have to work around a female in heat then come trial time they may just not be able to work.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I train with world level competitors. They want the girls there. I do warn them that they are in heat, but for them it is just another training scenario. I have been around clubs that will not allow them on the grounds because it might disturb their boys. Train for everything because not all females are obvious when in heat and, as sad as it is, people lie. I wish females in heat were not treated like they have the plague at trials. No, don't have a male and female on the field at the same time, but making the girls go after everyone else is a pain in the neck.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

lhczth said:


> What is your female's breeding? Always like to know about strong female lines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=724260-wild-winds-zephyr-of-cognac

I have been told she resembles her mother line and it seems to hold true for many of the same blood. Strong females is quite common.

I'll be bringing a pup home from similar lines from Malinda at Weberhaus this year as well. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.result?father=1902284&mother=663956

Zefra will go for her IPO1 and possibly IPO2 this year if my work schedule allows.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

As for the females in season, when Zefra as intact she was always welcomed to train on the fields we worked at. She was in heat at our Regionals where she showed for her show rating. They didn't even care if she went last, just through er in with the other females.

Our current club is the same although most have multiple dogs and will leave a female I standing heat at home and work another, but they are welcomed.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I am surprised at the bolded sentence. Trialing with a bitch in heat is allowed, though they have to go last. Where I train it is a given there will be a bitch in heat, my males learn to work through it, as distracting as it is.
> If we never allowed the females to work when they are coming in, or full blown heat then 1/2 the dogs in the club would be absent often!
> If your male cannot train with the scent of a female in season, he'll probably not do well in trial if there is one on the grounds. Best to train away and deal with it.


I agree with you 100%. If I had a male I'd also want him desensitized to it for training. The club we train with that does not allow females in heat is usually in a building so I can see why it's a big deal, the smell is more concentrated and wont go away as quickly. If we are outside females can train but have to go last. The other club we train with is fine with a female in heat and don't really do anything differently.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Personally, I lean toward the boys. That may be simply because I've owned far more male GSDs than females. Then again, maybe it's a chicken vs egg question.

In any case, I've had some very lovely girls. My WGWL import from back in the day, Fenja vom Bosen Bruderblick was an outstanding working girl. And she was a superb housedog. Fennie was also super social.

For a novice to IPO, I would go with a female as a little easier to handle. Although there are some pretty tough girls out there. Overall, I'd say the males tend to be a bit stronger in protection.

There's just something about those boys being boys that appeals to me. My husband seems to favor the girls, albeit slightly.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I've had both and have liked both, though I do think I lean towards females. My current competition female is super sweet and cuddly, sleeps in my bed at night, and has insane drive and work ethic at the same time. My current young male (her son, 10.5 months) is similar In temperament, which is clearly genetic at this point in terms of being really sweet and cuddly, but is definitely a little more "intense" at this age than his mother was, and I wouldn't exactly recommend his type for a first time handler due to that. I don't think he'd be "dangerous" or anything..just might me a bit too much for someone just starting out. Comparatively, Carma (my female) was at 8 weeks pretty much as she is now. Her food drive and prey have always been extremely high. Burn (male) was a potato as an 8 week old. He didn't exactly turn on until closer to 5 months, but his drive equals hers at this point. He just happens to be 70lbs while she is 53lbs, so the difference in power is clear even at his age. Carma is much more easily handled due to that size.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That is something else about males, that Alexis (GatorDog) pointed out above. Males can be later waking up. The male in my last litter (same dad as Burn) also didn't start to wake up until 5 months. I expected this because his grandfather was also a sleeper. Breeders need to know these things so they don't oops and put a pup with the wrong buyer.


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> I've had both and have liked both, though I do think I lean towards females. My current competition female is super sweet and cuddly, sleeps in my bed at night, and has insane drive and work ethic at the same time. My current young male (her son, 10.5 months) is similar In temperament, which is clearly genetic at this point in terms of being really sweet and cuddly, but is definitely a little more "intense" at this age than his mother was, and I wouldn't exactly recommend his type for a first time handler due to that. I don't think he'd be "dangerous" or anything..just might me a bit too much for someone just starting out. Comparatively, Carma (my female) was at 8 weeks pretty much as she is now. Her food drive and prey have always been extremely high. Burn (male) was a potato as an 8 week old. He didn't exactly turn on until closer to 5 months, but his drive equals hers at this point. He just happens to be 70lbs while she is 53lbs, so the difference in power is clear even at his age. Carma is much more easily handled due to that size.


Thanks for the insight! I think I should definitely hope for a female from Carma's litter then. I'm 5'5" and 115 lbs and not the strongest person, though I'm working out to prepare for my GSD LOL. *insert eyeball emoji here, this is Fiona* Also reallllyyy excited to hear that the sweet house dog cuddliness seems to be genetic.



lhczth said:


> That is something else about males, that Alexis (GatorDog) pointed out above. Males can be later waking up. The male in my last litter (same dad as Burn) also didn't start to wake up until 5 months. I expected this because his grandfather was also a sleeper. Breeders need to know these things so they don't oops and put a pup with the wrong buyer.


(This is also Fiona. LOL) Thanks for the insight Lisa! I've heard this too from others, but I'm actually not totally clear on what mature/waking up means. I assumed it's being clear-headed when in drive? Just focusing in general?


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

By waking up, they mean their drives for prey objects, food etc. starts to come on, and/or energy level changes. Your mellow puppy suddenly becomes ball crazy, high energy **** raiser.

Maturing usually means a quite different change ... essentially, acting like an adult and not a willful puppy that wants to test every limit you place upon them, lol.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Hi Fiona, waking up, as was said above, is a pup that all of a sudden goes from be a lazy pup to having a lot of drive to work. Increase in drive for toys, tugs, bitework. 

Mature is when they start acting fully as an adult. With males they can go from being slow to learn, attention spans of a gnat, not showing their full power to all of a sudden realizing their power, posturing towards other males......... sort of think of men.


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

Ah makes sense!

I'm curious how you would know whether a pup is truly just lower drive vs. waking up late from observing their puppy stage. I know a terv who was sold to a pet home essentially as the laziest pup in the litter, and turned out to be full of drive and the most intense as an adult, and I always wondered. (he was a male as well lmao)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I never had issues with Karlo not knowing what was going on. He was a thinker from early on, power in protection from the get go. Matured mentally and physically, even though his lines were supposedly slow to mature.
I found out that is not really the norm. 
I have had to change up my whole game with Gambit. We are still a work in progress, though tracking is where he excels. If only he didn't want to use his nose in the other two phases. lol.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

LancerandRara said:


> I'm getting a GSD puppy (hopefully if it works out) from a specific breeding from west german working lines that I'd absolutely love a puppy from later this year, supposed to be very balanced and stable dogs. We're starting new to schutzhund and this is my first working shepherd.
> 
> For my question in the title, I've now been told different opinions on this... and all these opinions sound valid and have merit. So I'd love to hear even more opinions from those who have experience, obviously to confuse myself even more LOL
> 
> Are females less forgiving of mistakes, and what kind of mistakes specifically? Are females always more independent than males? Should I be starting with a male or female puppy as my first working dog? Or are males always more stable? Or does it depend on the lines/breedings? etc etc... laughs


I think it depends on the particular breeding. I have always allowed my breeders to pick the right dog for me, and so far, so good! You just need to be very clear and specific on what kind of dog you want.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I will keep back males if I think they may wake up later just to be safe, but you also learn from knowing the lines and your own dogs.


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