# Realistic training.



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

After reading through a recent thread on here I was left with a few questions. I believe that positive training works. I also believe that it is somewhat limited. So what do we as new dog owners do to compliment the positive training. For myself usually just a Stern voice gets the point across. For my wife not so much. I kind of treat my dog with the same attitude my kids get. Basically yes I love them but mess up and their is consequences. I am a firm believer that out of fear comes respect. Now when I tell people this the normal response is "well your kids aren't supposed to fear you". We'll my kids don't fear me personally, they fear the consequences that will come out of my duty as a parent to teach them lessons. But as a new dog owner these consequences can be a little confusing as to what is smart or not. Understanding that all dogs are different and may respond differently to different types of enforcement what do the experienced owners do to correct their dog without being abusive. Besides NILIF. That is already on here a lot.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I find being firmer in body language and voice followed by ignoring works well. Right now I'm dealing with youngest being more aggressive then I like with the other dogs. So now I give him a firm, stern leave it. I do not reward him or acknowledge that he did well with the leave it, no good boy or a treat for leaving it because I shouldn't have to tell him that to begin with. If he wants any attention from me he will act like he is suppose to. In the last two days I've noticed a difference. He is walking past the others, ignoring them as he should. That is what will get him attention or a good boy. My dogs seem to know when I'm not happy with them and they are not happy if I'm not happy. All the way up to this point I've used positive training with him with no issues. Sometimes he wears a prong but I've never corrected him n the prong. He is getting the idea and prefers getting attention and praise.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Good question. But hard one to explain. 

I love positive reinforcement. I use it a lot. But there are consequences to bad choices. For me and my dogs. 

I think that when talking about corrections, it all comes down to understanding the dog in front of you. Each dog is different. No one way works with every dog. 

For example, my boy Nix, is fairly handler sensitive at home. A stern "what are you doing", sends him to his "corner". At training, or when he is in drive, a medium leash pop with the prong settles him down, except in bite work, then a stronger correction is needed. 

When it comes to fosters, or dogs I don't know well, I always start with a firm "eh". If they react then great. If they don't, I up it, I may grab a collar, I may bang a shoe on the table, I may pop their leash. 

There is no one size fits all. A recent foster was borderline fear aggressive. If I grabbed her collar, she dropped to the ground and tried to bite me. But she was also disconnected in the beginning, so she did not even register praise. So I had to find a way to reward and correct that would not freak her out and then let her know when she was good. For a reward, food worked. For a correction, banging a shoe on the table snapped her out of everything. 

With her, I did a lot more positive than negative. But she was a cat chaser, so I had to do something. Lol. 

In the end, it all comes down to the dog. I use lots of different things, leash pops, prong collar, shoe bangs, firm "eh", looks. What distinguishes corrections from abuse is where they come from in "your heart". If you lash out because you are angry or frustrated, it's abuse. You use physical force or correction to ease you emotions. 

But a correction, for the most part, no matter what kind, given with no emotion, just as a way to communicate, as long as it fits the crime, is just a correction.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Great topic OP

I'm needing to change my methods for the next chapter (with a young adult dog). I'm not sure that "fear" is the word, nor respect.....for me.

Just basic - positive or negative is more what I'm looking for but not physical punishment..... lol -when it comes down to it, I guess all training methods are based on this.

It almost seems like - as computer's operate 1 or 0. We should be able to work with our dogs to establish simple right or wrong pathways that would ease training. Do we has humans over analyse things sometimes? I know I do. 

For this next chapter with my dog. I'm thinking that I know when I train a new behavior and I know when she has it ingrained and knows it - all that is left is yes (correct) or no (incorrect) - black or white.

I'm ok with there will always need to be some type of reward for good behavior (food or ball or tug) because every dog in a working capacity that I have seen requires this. But, I don't think every time I tell my dog go not beg, or go laydown or no barking should need to be rewarded. ???


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> What distinguishes corrections from abuse is where they come from in "your heart". If you lash out because you are angry or frustrated, it's abuse. You use physical force or correction to ease you emotions.
> 
> But a correction, for the most part, no matter what kind, given with no emotion, just as a way to communicate, as long as it fits the crime, is just a correction.



"As long as it fits the crime" Why does correction (communication) need different levels?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I guess one of the reasons I posted this is that I have heard some people say that aggression towards a dog will lead to an aggressive dog. Now so far I have been lucky with rosko. His temperament is great, easily trainable, very food or toy motivated so plenty of options to reward or takeaway. I could see where a dog could become aggressive if being abused in order to protect itself. Or they may become very skittish and afraid to do anything for fear of being abused. So I guess I was looking for safe ideas for people who may not know how to go about correcting beyond a simple verbal command .


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Pretty much what gsdsar said.My dogs all respond to a firm EH!They immediately stop what they're doing,or if they were blowing off a command they come to their senses and comply.If they're really amped up about something a tap with two fingers on the ribcage brings them back to reality.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> I guess one of the reasons I posted this is that I have heard some people say that aggression towards a dog will lead to an aggressive dog. Now so far I have been lucky with rosko. His temperament is great, easily trainable, very food or toy motivated so plenty of options to reward or takeaway. I could see where a dog could become aggressive if being abused in order to protect itself. Or they may become very skittish and afraid to do anything for fear of being abused. So I guess I was looking for safe ideas for people who may not know how to go about correcting beyond a simple verbal command .


For most stuff, if I tell my dog twice and she blows me off - she gets confined in a room. I just have short door barriers I pull closed. They would no way hold her if she wanted out but they are "lines in the sand" and she does not cross until I release her. She does not like it at all and I can usually count on good behavior for the next 4 or 5 hours when she's been "timed out".


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Let me ask a hypothetical question. Right now rosko is 9 months old. If we need to reach into food bowl no issues. If we decide to take a toy no issues. But suppose he gets a year older and he's shredding a toy rope and myself, my kid, or my wife reach down to pick it up and he growls or snaps. I have always said of friends dogs that would growl if they were to take a toy that they should punch that sucker in the head as hard as they can to teach that dog what growling at them gets it. Now that I have my own dog I wouldn't do that. But what is the appropriate response to that. And I don't accept the answer to give the dog his space. There may be a time where an owner needs to remove something from a dogs mouth or take a toy away just to continue a training session. Am I wrong to expect my dogs to relinquish whatever they have at my command.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cdwoodcox said:


> *I am a firm believer that out of fear comes respect. * Now when I tell people this the normal response is "well your kids aren't supposed to fear you". We'll my kids don't fear me personally, they fear the consequences that will come out of my duty as a parent to teach them lessons. But as a new dog owner these consequences can be a little confusing as to what is smart or not. Understanding that all dogs are different and may respond differently to different types of enforcement what do the experienced owners do to correct their dog without being abusive. Besides NILIF. That is already on here a lot.


Yes, but. I think that respect can come without fear too. Using your example of children, would you rather they do right out of fear of consequences, or because you've taught them the value of right vs wrong? 

If you're relying on fear of consequences to drive behavior, there's always the factor of "will I get caught?" Without that possibility, potential consequences are moot. 

For me, it's such a combination of things, customized to the particular dog. Number one is a solid foundation of positive reinforcement for the right behavior. As many times and as many ways as I can make that work, so the dog learns that doing what I want is in his/her best interest because it makes good things happen for the dog, the better. If a behavior can be extinguished by ignoring (and obviously that does not apply to all behaviors), then I'll do that. Some behavior are self reinforcing, so ignoring has no effect. But I reinforce what I want and I don't reinforce what I don't want, as much as I can as an imperfect human. 

I'm also a firm believer of NILIF. To me, that's all about polite behavior and house manners, which becomes a routine part of the dog's life. Don't mug me for food or toys. Sit politely before I let you outside, before going in the car or getting out of the car, before going in or out of the house, before I throw this ball for you or give you this bully stick I'm holding. 

And impulse control work, tons and tons of this. Overall, I want my dogs to learn that controlling their impulses makes great things happen, and trying to take what they want doesn't work at all. I want them to understand that eye contact makes the world go round. I want them to know that if I'm holding something they want, be it food or a toy, if they want it they have to ignore it and look at me instead.

I teach trust with trading games. I teach them to give up something for something better. I teach them to bring me whatever they have so I can take it away and give it back again. I make a game out of anything I can possibly make a game out of. 

Then, and only then, do I work on the "have to" part of the equation, in the sense that they have to do what I say. My philosophy is that the more they WANT to do what I want them to do, the less I have to MAKE them do what I want, and that's a win/win situation as far as I'm concerned.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

"Am I wrong to expect my dogs to relinquish whatever they have at my command."

Absolutely not, in my view. If for no other reason than their health and safety's sake you must be able to do all these things and more, i.e. touch them anywhere with or without injuries present.

I'm not a trainer, just a dog owner so I have no idea what the pros do to accomplish this. I just built a real tight bond with my dog from the start. He now trusts me implicitly, as he should, and there is nothing that I can't take from him at any time or examine, clean, etc. 

That said, I never test him. I don't ever do any of these things just to do it. I do what's needed when it its needed.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cdwoodcox said:


> Let me ask a hypothetical question. Right now rosko is 9 months old. If we need to reach into food bowl no issues. If we decide to take a toy no issues. But suppose he gets a year older and he's shredding a toy rope and myself, my kid, or my wife reach down to pick it up and he growls or snaps.


That sort of thing is easily prevented with proactive training. If he trusts you as a fair and consistent leader who doesn't just randomly take away things he values he will never learn to protect them from you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cdwoodcox said:


> Am I wrong to expect my dogs to relinquish whatever they have at my command.


You are not wrong. And I have to say, that if I ever had a resource guarding dog (which I have not), Halo would have been that dog. And yet, she's the one who brings me toys to take away from her! Why? Because I have reinforced that SO much, we have such a strong foundation laid, that when I do really need to take something away from her for safety reasons or because she took something she wasn't supposed to have, I have never had a problem. She has never ONCE growled at me, and she is not even close to being a pushover. I have literally pried open her jaws to extract a bag of cheese, and while she tried her best to hang onto it, there wasn't the slightest bit of aggression towards me.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I would start the 'trading game'.Trade the toy or bone for something of higher value to him.It wouldn't be forever,just until he gets the idea that it's always in his best interest to give something up.If you get tough with him it just validated his fear of losing his prize.Next time he'll be even more paranoid about losing it and may escalate his defense.You want to relieve his anxiety,not compound it.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I have no worries whatsoever that rosko would ever show any aggression. But this is the kind of info that as a dog owner I feel is important to know. In the next year I want to get a long hair sable GSD. While I expect some differences I also expect the dog to listen the same as rosko. If anyone looks back at some of my first posts on here there is one labeled let a dog be a dog. Where I questioned the need for constant training. Well that was a bunch of crap. Let a dog be a dog should have been called let a dog be an obedient dog.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Let me ask a hypothetical question. Right now rosko is 9 months old. If we need to reach into food bowl no issues. If we decide to take a toy no issues. But suppose he gets a year older and he's shredding a toy rope and myself, my kid, or my wife reach down to pick it up and he growls or snaps. I have always said of friends dogs that would growl if they were to take a toy that they should punch that sucker in the head as hard as they can to teach that dog what growling at them gets it. Now that I have my own dog I wouldn't do that. But what is the appropriate response to that. And I don't accept the answer to give the dog his space. There may be a time where an owner needs to remove something from a dogs mouth or take a toy away just to continue a training session. Am I wrong to expect my dogs to relinquish whatever they have at my command.


If the age from 9 mos to 16 or 18 mos weren't so different - that would not be the prime age for this breed to be surrendered and in the shelters in the numbers they are...... to say "if you lay a good foundation and things are going fine - it will be ok" Not- you are dealing with a puppy and young adult and the challenges are different to bring them to maturity.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> Let me ask a hypothetical question. Right now rosko is 9 months old. If we need to reach into food bowl no issues. If we decide to take a toy no issues. But suppose he gets a year older and he's shredding a toy rope and myself, my kid, or my wife reach down to pick it up and he growls or snaps. I have always said of friends dogs that would growl if they were to take a toy that they should punch that sucker in the head as hard as they can to teach that dog what growling at them gets it. Now that I have my own dog I wouldn't do that. But what is the appropriate response to that. And I don't accept the answer to give the dog his space. There may be a time where an owner needs to remove something from a dogs mouth or take a toy away just to continue a training session. Am I wrong to expect my dogs to relinquish whatever they have at my command.


You are not wrong. I expect mine to give it up without growling whether I tell them to drop it or if I take it away. Last week Midnite took one of Robyns leg quarters, well that wasn't his leg quarter and I took it back without a peep from him(he did look sad) but I am honestly not afraid that he will go after me. I think it's so important that they don't guard their food or toys, especially if kids are in the house. Kids should be taught to give that space but sometimes that isn't fool proof.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> If the age from 9 mos to 16 or 18 mos weren't so different - that would not be the prime age for this breed to be surrendered and in the shelters in the numbers they are...... to say "if you lay a good foundation and things are going fine - it will be ok" Not- you are dealing with a puppy and young adult and the challenges are different to bring them to maturity.


Oh, I don't know about that. Hans was somewhere between about 9 - 16 mos old when I brought him home from the rescue. I think building a solid foundation of trust from the start is exactly why things are fine and all is ok. In other words, trust is the solid foundation upon which everything else is built upon at every stage.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

viking said:


> Oh, I don't know about that. Hans was somewhere between about 9 - 16 mos old when I brought him home from the rescue. I think building a solid foundation of trust from the start is exactly why things are fine and all is ok. In other words, trust is the solid foundation upon which everything else is built upon at every stage.


You're not sure if he was closer to 9 or 16 months?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cdwoodcox said:


> In the next year I want to get a long hair sable GSD.


You want a Halo! :wub:












viking said:


> I think building a solid foundation of trust from the start is exactly why things are fine and all is ok. In other words, trust is the solid foundation upon which everything else is built upon at every stage.


:thumbup: That cannot be stressed enough.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> You're not sure if he was closer to 9 or 16 months?


My best guess is he was 9 or 10 mos old but he could've been a little older. He got taller and longer, so I figured under 12. Do you know of a way to determine age more accurately besides the amount of tartar on the teeth?


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Halo is BEAUTIFUL!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think Stonevintage means how radically Gsds change as they enter adolescence.Everything is clicking along smoothly,your pup is obedient and fun to be with.Then suddenly she's a teenager and wants to make her own decisions and blow you off.It's quite a surprise for a lot of owners.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you Dogma


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> I think Stonevintage means how radically Gsds change as they enter adolescence.Everything is clicking along smoothly,your pup is obedient and fun to be with.Then suddenly she's a teenager and wants to make her own decisions and blow you off.It's quite a surprise for a lot of owners.


I came into the picture just at the point where the adolescent rebellion was in full swing! Lol! Regardless, the point was that laying that foundation of trust from the outset of the relationship at whatever stage, adolescent or other, is crucial. There's no doubt in my mind that building that trust with Hans was the cornerstone for all the success he accomplished and he really had some major challenges.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

We're usually on the same wavelength,Stone


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I trust the foundation but am also aware of changes and challenges. IMO things change and we need to change discipline with tests and challenges that normally come.

This, the reason why it's different; Image lol! I don't ever want to push my young dog when she's not mature yet and is armed like this.....

A good foundation is essential but when they go thru their normal changes - IMO it's just a different level of training and every day is a new day. There is foundation but some get surprises because they came to believe that what happened in the first 9 mos represented the time where most of the training was needed. IMO the age between 9-16 mos are very important and you don't know if your efforts have really been on track until then.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

viking said:


> I came into the picture just at the point where the adolescent rebellion was in full swing! Lol! Regardless, the point was that laying that foundation of trust from the outset of the relationship at whatever stage, adolescent or other, is crucial. There's no doubt in my mind that building that trust with Hans was the cornerstone for all the success he accomplished and he really had some major challenges.


I agree with laying a foundation of trust and respect.After you get through the terrible teens they do come back around to the great companion you knew was in there somewhere.Some people just weren't expecting it and throw up their hands and quit.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> I agree with laying a foundation of trust and respect.After you get through the terrible teens they do come back around to the great companion you knew was in there somewhere.Some people just weren't expecting it and throw up their hands and quit.


Well, I have wondered if that's just exactly how my boy ended up on the side of a county road where the sheriff found him but of course, there's no way to know. 

Last summer I met a little 4 month old male, white GSD who looked like a mini-Hans. Made my heart ache a little that I missed all those baby months with him.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't think anyone is disagreeing on anything. You can start a foundation with an 8 week old puppy or you can start one with a 12 month old. A foundation is what it is, but their phases of normal maturity never allow us to rest on puppy days behavior. They mature and need different guidance and support and if we don't keep up - we fail them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Let me ask a hypothetical question. Right now rosko is 9 months old. If we need to reach into food bowl no issues. If we decide to take a toy no issues. But suppose he gets a year older and he's shredding a toy rope and myself, my kid, or my wife reach down to pick it up and he growls or snaps. I have always said of friends dogs that would growl if they were to take a toy that they should punch that sucker in the head as hard as they can to teach that dog what growling at them gets it. Now that I have my own dog I wouldn't do that. But what is the appropriate response to that. And I don't accept the answer to give the dog his space. There may be a time where an owner needs to remove something from a dogs mouth or take a toy away just to continue a training session. Am I wrong to expect my dogs to relinquish whatever they have at my command.


 No your not wrong and if you develop a "bond" of trust and mutual respect it is easily accomplished.

Respect would be telling your dog "leave it" or "no" or giving a "heads up" before you remove whatever, "trust" would be he "says" whatever.

The growl think depends on the dog and the owners relationship or lack thereof! If a dog growls at you, that behaviour needs to be "addressed" not "ignored" on the spot and if it's a first-time occurrence. And the behaviour comes out of "Nowhere" an owner is usually caught off guard??

In "most" cases a very harsh "verbal" and ordering the dog away will usually work because the dog is "testing" this strategy" to see if it works?? 

Once an owner gets it, that their is a "problem here, it's "drag leash" time and "other" protocols. The growling at owner "situation" is usually brought about by a lack of structure and a result of too many behaviours "ignored" or not "noticed" and either case "issues" not "addressed."

I never had that particular problem myself. High-Rank Drive and H/A were my issues and with the pack fight things, that was "strictly" a pack structure issue, Rocky has no dog aggression in him at all. 

But ... I'm seldom "this" brief. 

So more on the building a "Bond" thing is here:

Training Management and Leadership! - Page 3 - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

and if you have "that" everything else is easy.  

I'll give you a break and say post 23.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I don't think anyone is disagreeing on anything. You can start a foundation with an 8 week old puppy or you can start one with a 12 month old. A foundation is what it is, but their phases of normal maturity never allow us to rest on puppy days behavior. They mature and need different guidance and support and if we don't keep up - we fail them.


Okay, that's a fine general statement. But I guess I don't see how this general point addresses the discussion. The OP's question was about GSDs entering adolescence and how to address resource guarding behaviors; specifically if its reasonable that he/she should expect to be able to take something from an adolescent dog. The OP envisions getting another long haired GSD in the future and is wondering about it because his current dog displays no such behaviors.

The discussion was about how to go about addressing that possible future issue. So far, the advice has been that laying a solid foundation of trust avoids resource guarding later as an adolescent.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

viking said:


> Okay, that's a fine general statement. But I guess I don't see how this general point addresses the discussion. The OP's question was about GSDs entering adolescence and how to address resource guarding behaviors; specifically if its reasonable that he/she should expect to be able to take something from an adolescent dog. The OP envisions getting another long haired GSD in the future and is wondering about it because his current dog displays no such behaviors.
> 
> The discussion was about how to go about addressing that possible future issue. So far, the advice has been that laying a solid foundation of trust avoids resource guarding later as an adolescent.


He's actually asked a lot of very good questions. 

And with the serious issues I had that I "never saw coming," "resource guarding" was not one of them.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

viking said:


> Okay, that's a fine general statement. But I guess I don't see how this general point addresses the discussion. The OP's question was about GSDs entering adolescence and how to address resource guarding behaviors; specifically if its reasonable that he/she should expect to be able to take something from an adolescent dog. The OP envisions getting another long haired GSD in the future and is wondering about it because his current dog displays no such behaviors.
> 
> The discussion was about how to go about addressing that possible future issue. So far, the advice has been that laying a solid foundation of trust avoids resource guarding later as an adolescent.


To understand how that conversation evolved you need to look back at what post I was responding to. The OP is stating that he is basing possible future behavior on a future dog as based on his current pups behavior at 9 months old....... how about if I rephrase it and say "that's crazy"?

Instead - I phrased it as to the changes that are to come with his current pup and changes are to come - not a good basis for judgment right now. Mia Culpa.....


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> He's actually asked a lot of very good questions.
> 
> And with the serious issues I had that I "never saw coming," "resource guarding" was not one of them.


Huh? You lost me.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> To understand how that conversation evolved you need to look back at what post I was responding to. The OP is stating that he is basing possible future behavior on a future dog as based on his current pups behavior at 9 months old....... how about if I rephrase it and say "that's crazy"?
> 
> Instead - I phrased it as to the changes that are to come with his current pup and changes are to come - not a good basis for judgment right now. Mia Culpa.....


Aw, I think you're being a little hard on the OP. I took him to mean his current dog was his reference point, no more, no less. 

I guess its hard for me to believe that growling at owner/resource guarding spontaneously occurs as a behavior merely at the arrival of adolescence where a solid foundation of trust, or as Chip phrased it a "bond", has been established (short of a physical pathology being involved). 

Not to be a smart alec but its 'Mea Culpa'. Sorry, its kinda a compulsion.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I find that for the first year that I'm training them that they learn it and know it, but it doesn't feel that way. At about about 12-18 months it starts clicking and everything that you thought they didn't know they do in fact know. All of the sudden all that training pays off in a big way. Temperament is temperament and that doesn't change much if at all. All of mine have remained how they were as far as temperament. I knew within 1 minute of having Midnite out at the shelter what kind of dog he was and I knew that if anyone with a half of a brain would see that and grab him. I was right on with his temperament and he was older. I also know that he had no training and no manners but that genetically sound temperament was a winner. 

I do think that a dog that has never resources guarded can start if the right resource was introduced. If a dog never had a knuckle bone to guard and then gets one and they feel its the best thing in the world. The thing is that the person can not be afraid of their own dog. If you are trying to take away that bone and you back off the dog now knows hey I growl and my reward is keeping that bone. Once you attempt to take that bone you have to follow through, whether you distract the dog, use a broom to move it, etc. you have to follow through or the problem just got worse.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> If the age from 9 mos to 16 or 18 mos weren't so different - that would not be the prime age for this breed to be surrendered and in the shelters in the numbers they are...... to say "if you lay a good foundation and things are going fine - it will be ok" Not- you are dealing with a puppy and young adult and the challenges are different to bring them to maturity.


 Correct however I have no intention of stopping his training. I think with continued training and in another couple months when the weather turns a little warmer the introduction of agility training a lot of behavioral problems can be avoided. I also think that temperament and respect for the human will stay consistent through adolescence.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You want a Halo! :wub:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yes, your dog is beautiful.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> No your not wrong and if you develop a "bond" of trust and mutual respect it is easily accomplished.
> 
> Respect would be telling your dog "leave it" or "no" or giving a "heads up" before you remove whatever, "trust" would be he "says" whatever.
> 
> ...


 Thank you. My intent really wasn't to have a conversation on preventing a growl or snap at an owner. (I understand this is the easiest way to avoid such an incident). But, Rather what happens or what is an acceptable or smart response if it does happen.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> To understand how that conversation evolved you need to look back at what post I was responding to. The OP is stating that he is basing possible future behavior on a future dog as based on his current pups behavior at 9 months old....... how about if I rephrase it and say "that's crazy"?
> 
> Instead - I phrased it as to the changes that are to come with his current pup and changes are to come - not a good basis for judgment right now. Mia Culpa.....


 Sorry if I made it seem that I was basing a future dog on my current dog. In reality I was basing future dogs behavior on the training that future dog will receive and my expectations and standards that I will hold future dog too. My current dog has no behavioral issues at 9 months because he has been properly trained,socialized, the bond, respect, trust has all been established. I have no plan on stopping his training simply because he hits a specific age. Rosko will continue training through adolescence and into adulthood. Will he push his boundaries yes. Will I reinforce my rules yes. Just because a dog enters into adulthood doesn't mean he will become unruly. At least that isn't something I am going to accept. 
The whole reason I am waiting to get my next pup is that I want to be able to focus my training fully on Rosko until he is mature enough I can split time with another dog.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

viking said:


> I guess its hard for me to believe that growling at owner/resource guarding spontaneously occurs as a behavior merely at the arrival of adolescence where a solid foundation of trust, or as Chip phrased it a "bond", has been established (short of a physical pathology being involved).
> 
> Not to be a smart alec but its 'Mea Culpa'. Sorry, its kinda a compulsion.


And of course you know, that it's fine for you to have your opinion and I mine. Sorry if you don't agree with mine - but don't let yourself obsess over it.....


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> What distinguishes corrections from abuse is where they come from in "your heart". If you lash out because you are angry or frustrated, it's abuse. You use physical force or correction to ease you emotions.
> 
> But a correction, for the most part, no matter what kind, given with no emotion, just as a way to communicate, as long as it fits the crime, is just a correction.


I like this distinction a lot. I use corrections on my dog, but they are calm, deliberate, and immediate.

I saw a situation I felt was abusive, and that was really the distinguishing factor for me in calling it that: The owner was clearly (and understandably) angry and embarrassed. She was screaming at the dog and she angrily issued a physical correction way too late - like 15-30 seconds after the behavior.

(I didn't report it because I didn't know who she was and my husband was pretty insistent that we get our dog away from the situation lest it escalate, so I didn't hang around to get a license plate number. I feel kind of bad about that.)


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

cdwoodcox said:


> After reading through a recent thread on here I was left with a few questions. I believe that positive training works. I also believe that it is somewhat limited. So what do we as new dog owners do to compliment the positive training. For myself usually just a Stern voice gets the point across. For my wife not so much. I kind of treat my dog with the same attitude my kids get. Basically yes I love them but mess up and their is consequences. I am a firm believer that out of fear comes respect. Now when I tell people this the normal response is "well your kids aren't supposed to fear you". We'll my kids don't fear me personally, they fear the consequences that will come out of my duty as a parent to teach them lessons. But as a new dog owner these consequences can be a little confusing as to what is smart or not. Understanding that all dogs are different and may respond differently to different types of enforcement what do the experienced owners do to correct their dog without being abusive. Besides NILIF. That is already on here a lot.


My experience has been that it doesn't work when used as the only method. I had a pretty stubborn puppy who liked to test me a lot. Positive reinforcement/negative punishment (decreasing likelihood of behavior via removal of something they like) did not work. Operant conditioning has four facets for a reason, IMO. Positive punishment (a correction) is perfectly fine in my book as long as it is firm, fair (no more severe than needed to get the point across), and immediate.

When my puppy was younger, I had to get a lot stricter with her. She listened well with my husband, not so much with me. We introduced some corrections that spoke a little more clearly to her than positive reinforcement alone. Fast forward to having trained with her for over a year and a half, and the most correcting she needs is the, "Uh!"/"No ____" that cues her she is about to make a bad choice. If she's looking like she is dying to counter surf, I remind her with our command for staying on the ground, and then immediately praise her when she abandons the intent to surf.


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## heartdog (Jul 2, 2008)

I use positive training, and have a 3 year old, intact working line hot rod GSD. I have used zero physical/verbal correction, and the only limits are the experience and skills of the trainer. Nothing against other ways of training, however. For me, it's important to not be super permissive, but I view behavior as behavior. It's not "bad", it just is, and there are ways to modify, change, and grow it. Growling, for instance, is information. Not automatically some threat from the dog, either. Mine does it when he's in a combo of aroused, frustrated, unsure, and there's conflict. Just a recipe that elicits a gut reaction. I change the scenario, and the behavior changes immediately. It's his lines, there's just some of that in the genetics, but I feel firmly he doesn't intend anything. 
My job is to be proactive, and teach what behavior I want, and prevent behavior I don't want while doing so. I don't blame the dog, or use labels like "stubborn"...they test when there's inconsistency. It's natural. Operant conditioning has four quadrants because they explain how it works on behavior. But it's reward and punishment. So, it works, either way. You do not have to use positive punishment, you can use negative. Just takes some more thinking outside the box sometimes!


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

heartdog said:


> I use positive training, and have a 3 year old, intact working line hot rod GSD. I have used zero physical/verbal correction, and the only limits are the experience and skills of the trainer. Nothing against other ways of training, however. For me, it's important to not be super permissive, but I view behavior as behavior. It's not "bad", it just is, and there are ways to modify, change, and grow it. Growling, for instance, is information. Not automatically some threat from the dog, either. Mine does it when he's in a combo of aroused, frustrated, unsure, and there's conflict. Just a recipe that elicits a gut reaction. I change the scenario, and the behavior changes immediately. It's his lines, there's just some of that in the genetics, but I feel firmly he doesn't intend anything.
> My job is to be proactive, and teach what behavior I want, and prevent behavior I don't want while doing so. I don't blame the dog, or use labels like "stubborn"...they test when there's inconsistency. It's natural. Operant conditioning has four quadrants because they explain how it works on behavior. But it's reward and punishment. So, it works, either way. You do not have to use positive punishment, you can use negative. Just takes some more thinking outside the box sometimes!


I'm curious how you've used zero verbal correction in 3 years...your dog has never heard "no"? How do you communicate that they are not doing it right short of only withholding the reward..


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

WateryTart said:


> My experience has been that it doesn't work when used as the only method. I had a pretty stubborn puppy who liked to test me a lot. Positive reinforcement/negative punishment (decreasing likelihood of behavior via removal of something they like) did not work. Operant conditioning has four facets for a reason, IMO. Positive punishment (a correction) is perfectly fine in my book as long as it is firm, fair (no more severe than needed to get the point across), and immediate.
> 
> When my puppy was younger, I had to get a lot stricter with her. She listened well with my husband, not so much with me. We introduced some corrections that spoke a little more clearly to her than positive reinforcement alone. Fast forward to having trained with her for over a year and a half, and the most correcting she needs is the, "Uh!"/"No ____" that cues her she is about to make a bad choice. If she's looking like she is dying to counter surf, I remind her with our command for staying on the ground, and then immediately praise her when she abandons the intent to surf.


 Is there a thread on the forum on the 4 facets of operant conditioning forcanines, or a book you would recommend? Thanks!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

heartdog said:


> I use positive training, and have a 3 year old, intact working line hot rod GSD. I have used zero physical/verbal correction, and the only limits are the experience and skills of the trainer. Nothing against other ways of training, however. For me, it's important to not be super permissive, but I view behavior as behavior. It's not "bad", it just is, and there are ways to modify, change, and grow it. Growling, for instance, is information. Not automatically some threat from the dog, either. Mine does it when he's in a combo of aroused, frustrated, unsure, and there's conflict. Just a recipe that elicits a gut reaction. I change the scenario, and the behavior changes immediately. It's his lines, there's just some of that in the genetics, but I feel firmly he doesn't intend anything.
> My job is to be proactive, and teach what behavior I want, and prevent behavior I don't want while doing so. I don't blame the dog, or use labels like "stubborn"...they test when there's inconsistency. It's natural. Operant conditioning has four quadrants because they explain how it works on behavior. But it's reward and punishment. So, it works, either way. You do not have to use positive punishment, you can use negative. Just takes some more thinking outside the box sometimes!


And that's a fine way of looking at it if it works for you. It didn't for me.

Yes, operant conditioning has four quadrants explaining how the presence and absence of desired or undesired stimuli work on behavior. I have a degree in psychology, so I am aware of that.

In practice, I think if you have four quadrants? Use them if you want to. I think it's disingenuous to claim that people aren't creative enough if they want to use all four. My trainers are pretty inventive, and they do use all four. It works for them, and it works for us.

If using only two works for you? Great. Go with that, that's awesome for you. I just find it really funny when people claim that what worked for them can work for anyone, and if it doesn't, it couldn't possibly be a flaw in the approach; you just weren't dedicated/knowledgeable/creative enough.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

maxtmill said:


> Is there a thread on the forum on the 4 facets of operant conditioning forcanines, or a book you would recommend? Thanks!


I'm not a canine expert, I just have a degree in psychology that included coursework in learning theory. I'd ask a trainer you trust. I learned as I went with my dog, with the knowledge that everything I was picking up was specific to her, and I might have to go about it totally differently with my next dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

maxtmill said:


> Is there a thread on the forum on the 4 facets of operant conditioning forcanines, or a book you would recommend? Thanks!


This is a very good book on the topic, and more: Excel-Erated Learning


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am in the trust camp. I want my dogs to trust me. That doesn't mean I am permissive. The main trouble with positive training, is poor application. People think positive means permissive and nothing can be further from the truth.

I want my dogs to trust that I will follow through. If I give a command, then it must be done. And it can be done right away, and then a "good girl, yay" makes everyone feel good. Or, it can be done with Susie helping make it happen. The good girl is not so exciting that way, though if we are learning, once the position/task is achieved, I do give the good-girl. 

I use verbal corrections, and as I gain in experience the need for them reduces with each dog. But it doesn't damage trust to hear a "Eh!" or a "No!" or a reasonable physical correction like a leash pop. I don't use prongs, but if I did a leash pop on a prong collar will not damage trust. Too many leash pops, leash pops that are given without the dog being trained, or the dog having a moment to comply, I think it can damage trust. 

Poorly performed, any training method damages trust. 

Properly performed, most training methods improve trust. 

Clear boundaries, follow through, good communication, good timing, all make for a relaxed dog who trusts you.

There just is no place for fear in that. Sorry. If I see a dog of mine acting afraid of me, then, I change everything I am doing with the dog. I want no part of that. My dogs will give me anything out of their mouth, not because the fear me, but because the do not fear me. They will listen to what I want them to do, because they want to do what I want them to do, not because they fear me. They respect me because they trust me. They do not respect me because they fear me.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This is a very good book on the topic, and more: Excel-Erated Learning


Thañk you for the reference!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> Is there a thread on the forum on the 4 facets of operant conditioning forcanines, or a book you would recommend? Thanks!


Well by and large folks can depend on me to employ the KISS concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xaM6m8NpAQ&list=PLCrBM9zH5UyRXMF7EjD-ibi7wpzP--9_D&index=3

When I started looking I stumbled onto Postive Only Classical Operant Conditioning??? 

A watered down construct that does not teach a dog "to make good choices" and provide "consequences" for poor choices.

Pretty much that simple.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

gaia_bear said:


> I'm curious how you've used zero verbal correction in 3 years...your dog has never heard "no"? How do you communicate that they are not doing it right short of only withholding the reward..


LOL as am I?? For I think, the first two years of "Struddell's" life she thought her name was "No!"

But when I had to stop her form chasing Jack Rabbits off leash in the desert ..."No!" worked out fine.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL as am I?? For I think, the first two years of "Struddell's" life she thought her name was "No!"
> 
> But when I had to stop her form chasing Jack Rabbits off leash in the desert ..."No!" worked out fine.


LOL! I was once blessed with a working line GSD who thought his middle name was "Good Boy".


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> LOL! I was once blessed with a working line GSD who thought his middle name was "Good Boy".


LOL, I guess it depends on how good you are to start.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL, I guess it depends on how good you are to start.


Naw! I would be lying if I didn't give 95% credit to that dog.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

selzer said:


> There just is no place for fear in that. Sorry. If I see a dog of mine acting afraid of me, then, I change everything I am doing with the dog. I want no part of that. My dogs will give me anything out of their mouth, not because the fear me, but because the do not fear me. They will listen to what I want them to do, because they want to do what I want them to do, not because they fear me. They respect me because they trust me. They do not respect me because they fear me.


Maybe I should stop saying out of FEAR comes respect. Maybe instead I should say that out of fair and consistent corrections comes respect. They're modifying what they want to do to avoid something they perceive as negative until it eventually becomes habit. 
It works with both dogs and kids alike. However with both dogs and kids everyone has an issue with the word fear. But in reality our whole society is driven by fear. How many crimes are not permitted simply because someone is afraid of going to jail. Doesn't mean they have to be afraid of the police or judge. They're just afraid of the consequences of their actions. I am an active Christian, but Christianity is also fear based. If not their would be no need for Satan or he'll.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Maybe I should stop saying out of FEAR comes respect. Maybe instead I should say that out of fair and consistent corrections comes respect. They're modifying what they want to do to avoid something they perceive as negative until it eventually becomes habit.
> It works with both dogs and kids alike. However with both dogs and kids everyone has an issue with the word fear. But in reality our whole society is driven by fear. How many crimes are not permitted simply because someone is afraid of going to jail. Doesn't mean they have to be afraid of the police or judge. They're just afraid of the consequences of their actions. I am an active Christian, but Christianity is also fear based. If not their would be no need for Satan or he'll.


No your not wrong, you just did not have the right example. 

If a dog is exhibiting a behaviour that will get them "Killed" fence hopping, door bolting, counter surfing, sock eating, etc and all other reasonable methods have been exhausted, then installing "Fear" in a humane manner to convince the dog to "make better choices!" Is fine by me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cdwoodcox said:


> Maybe I should stop saying out of FEAR comes respect. Maybe instead I should say that out of fair and consistent corrections comes respect. They're modifying what they want to do to avoid something they perceive as negative until it eventually becomes habit.
> It works with both dogs and kids alike. However with both dogs and kids everyone has an issue with the word fear. But in reality our whole society is driven by fear. How many crimes are not permitted simply because someone is afraid of going to jail. Doesn't mean they have to be afraid of the police or judge. They're just afraid of the consequences of their actions. I am an active Christian, but Christianity is also fear based. If not their would be no need for Satan or he'll.


 It is written, "There is no fear in love, perfect love casteth out fear." 

Now, you may be of a mind to think that dogs do not love. I don't know. They have a devotion/perfect trust and the need to go to their person when ill or injured for comfort, and the desire to please/comfort their person that mirrors love. The bond between human and canine is a bond of trust/love/respect. I respect my dog for the beautiful creature that they are, that means respecting them as dogs and not little furry humans. But they respect me as the human who holds the keys to the kingdom. The one with the thumbs, the one who puts the collars on, the one that feeds everyone. 

I never expect anything out of my dogs before giving them food. Doesn't matter. They respect me. I do not make them wait at doorways, they respect me. I do tell them to kennel, and they do, or come, and they do. It is like they know that is what they have to do. It is not because I will chase them down and beat them if they don't. 

I do not know that I instill in any one of them fear of some reprisal for any action. And yet they respect me. Why? I do not practice NILIF. 

I believe in setting a dog up for success and then praising the dog for succeeding. I make succeeding in what I want, such a good thing, usually just with my voice, occasionally with pets, and early on with treats, that it motivates them. The more success they have the more confident they become and more and more successes follow. 

In public, normally, they are pretty darn good. They ignore other dogs. I might tell them to LEAVE IT, as I move along. The dog that I had done nothing with for a year, a 17 month old puppy, having been at home since 5 months, had a Yorkie-sized dog rush barking at him, and I said, LEAVE IT, and just walked along with my dog until we left the dog behind. When I heard them laughing about snacks, I went back with my dog on lead, a dog that was not pulling, but heeling at my side, that has never been taught not to pull and to heel, and said something to them and then stalked off again. The dog was perfect.

Why? Because this dog has NEVER had any reason not to trust me completely. 

I don't think I have ever corrected him. I haven't needed to. I haven't started training him yet. He's been to the vet and now to the groomers. But we haven't been to classes with him. But he knows me, and he knows to come when I call him, and he knows to let me put his collar on, and he knows to walk along with me. He trusts me. He does not fear me, at all. 

The reason people used horses is that horses could pull a lot more weight and move a lot faster than humans. If humans had to pull the horse along to get it from here to there, they would be dead in the water. So they devised the bit and the bridle and added whips, and by one means or another broke the horse to drive or ride. Monty Roberts put down in his book about joining up with a horse, by using body language and trust, he found he could do what people generally used to do mostly by force of one type or another. Now a German Shepherd dog can protect a human because they are the match for a human. Their teeth, size, strength, courage, and ability to keep going through pain can stop a man. To put try to use force on a GSD means we have to be willing to provide enough of an aversion to whatever, that the dog will be deterred. This is a losing battle. Oh, as the owner of one of these wonderful critters, just giving them a stern tone and word of displeasure can make these dogs not want to do that again. But only if we don't over do it. And only if we don't do that too often. Only if we create a real bond with the dog. Only if the dog trusts us, and respects us. 

I think their respect and trust can be damaged by physically trying to over power them. Yes, sure, who can't over power a whelp? Who can't over power a 4-5 month old puppy? If you start early enough, the pup knows, I suppose that you can easily squash him, and maybe he carries that with him. But, we can build a bond, the same bond with dogs that come to us at 6 months, 10 months, three years. So it really isn't something that they are just carrying forward from having known us from day one.


Respect comes from trust, not fear.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

I definitely agree with trust. My boy did resource guard a little when I first got him as a wee thing, but I just sat next to him while he was eating and showed him I wasn't there purely to steal from him. And we just worked on our bond in general. I've never had to use fear or any really harsh corrections. Never had to use training collars, etc, he adores me and I've taught him how to read feedback from me through our training.

I'm not saying it's bad if you use those things, frankly I think they're perfectly fine. I just tend to use as little as possible until I truly need it. But anyway, he's awesome, very responsive to me, even in bitework, I did not "put the fear of god in him". He is the most reliable of all my dogs because we put so much effort into our bond and communication.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nope nor have I but I have never "needed" to do "Behaviour Modification" to instill "Fear" in my dogs. Because they don't engage in life "Endangering Behaviours" because I "train them.

Well, wait actually I did! When I was 14 our Basenji chased my dads car! My dad was angry, I said ... I have an idea?? The next day I got in the car with a bucket of water.

Sure enough, Chip came after the car, my dad slowed down and I "nailed him with a bucket of water! That was the last car he ever chased and he lived to be 18 years old.

Did it put the "Fear" of God into him to chase cars?? Don't know, don't care but he never did it again ...worked out fine.

Not "everyone" has a dog with some sort of "self-preservation function." Some dogs need "Fear of God Consequences" to help them see the light.  

Simple direct and to the point 
after that "Chip" chose "Not to chase cars!" And "that's" how "that" works and why.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I can agree with the word trust. They can trust that their will be consequences if they try and partake in certain behaviors that I find unacceptable. They can also trust that great rewards will come when they get things right. 
Just to be clear. I am not talking about chasing my dog down and beating them. It may be a collar pop, a Stern no, while training with an e-collar it may be a low level stim. If he decides to take an interest in the cat a leave kitty, if he chases cat it will be a down stay at my feet for awhile, etc... No one's beating dogs with chains over here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here is an excellent article

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jody...ght-just-teach-you-something/1958167794408291


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Here is an excellent article
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/jody...ght-just-teach-you-something/1958167794408291


That was a very good article.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree with others about building trust.

Fear. Just a quick thought about fear. I see CDwoodcox has already acknowledged moving away from that idea, just my .02 in general below....

Fear in an animal is going to be different then fear in us humans.

Generally it's less nuanced in an animal then it is in a human.

We can feel fearful about things which really aren't life threatening. I fear getting on the bathroom scale for instance. 

For example - Remember the "alpha-roll" craze? In our minds this was a punishment for behavior we wanted to stop in a dog. Most people had no intention of really doing physical harm to the dog, it was just a form of correction.

The problem is, as more intuitive trainers have taught us, that dogs being alpha rolled don't understand the nuance of the maneuver. Many dogs would lash out, bite, fight back not because they were belligerent but because in their world it was fight or flight mode, fear of being injured or killed. A dog is not learning nor understanding when it's in a primal state of fight or flight - fear. How nuanced is a dog's fear? How do we know if that fearful state hasn't actually pushed them over the edge into a place where they are in a survival mode/mind set? 

I dealt with this in horses too. For what ever reason a horse I owned was deathly afraid to cross streams or creeks. In his head it was a dangerous and potentially life threatening activity, else he would have crossed. Being a large powerful animal I couldn't force him but had I pushed too hard he would have had a melt down thinking he was fighting for his life. I've seen fearful horses rear and flip over, dangerous for all concerned.

So it took time and patience to earn his trust and get him to walk through water calmly. 

So now a days I try not to ascribe human emotions on my dogs. Yes they have emotions but I have to remind myself they don't experience emotions the same way I do.

This, IMO, is why using fear will never be an effective tool for training an animal.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I agree with others about building trust.
> 
> Fear. Just a quick thought about fear. I see CDwoodcox has already acknowledged moving away from that idea, just my .02 in general below....
> 
> ...


 I agree, good points!


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