# AWDF - post trial summary?



## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

Anyone able to post how the weekend went? Sounds like it was hot! How was judging? Anyone know who the helpers favorite in protection was? Any stand out performances? What was up with tracking? (Saw scores all over the place) How were the tracking conditions?

-Calvin


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Judging seemed pretty fair, both obedience and protection. I did not go out to tracking.
Venue was super, easy to find, lots of parking, room for warm-up and for just walking your dog. 
Host hotel was nice, host hotel restaurant also nice.
Weather was really not bad. Yes it was warm and probably difficult for dogs coming from places that still had snow on the ground. Better than the predicted thunderstorms though.

Saw a lot of nice dogs. Mark Natinsky's Malinois had awesome routines. Very fast correct and happy. Several alternate breeds were fun to watch. I don't have my notes here at work, but anything I saw I tried to make notes on, so let me know if you have an interest in a particular dog.
Example... one dog lost points on retrieve because the dumbbell was to the side and the dog had to search for it. The dog did indeed search, stayed cool and went back and forth until he found it, but was rated only good (maybe low-good) on the exercise.


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## kindevog (Dec 4, 2008)

Tracking conditions were dry and the wind did'nt help much...could be pretty windy at different times


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Anyone know who the helpers favorite in protection was?


"Outback's Jack" getting Helpers Choice Trophy at the 2011 AWDF....Mohawks Malinois


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Consistent and people jumping in to help others.

The dog with the dumbell was Frans' young dog. Very nice dog. Intense and strong in the protection work. Correct in OB, great handling by Frans on the dumbell issue.

Excellent handling by Kristen for the youth handler. Very smooth, easy movements - flowed with the dog.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

It was a very good event with about 100 dogs trialing. Kudos to the hosting club for putting together such a well run event. 

Tracking was hard for some dogs and easy for others. Lots of dogs just haven't had enough practice due to the long winter and are capable of doing better. 

Obedience was fun to watch. All of the dogs that trialed looked upbeat. Some were a little too upbeat and lots of points were lost on little things. Lots of bad send-outs. Judge seamed to reward correctness. That put a lot of the flashy, fast dogs that were a little off, way out of the points. Chris K. Malinois, Mauno was had flash, speed and correctness and went high obedience with a 98pts.

Protection was good also. No dogs ran. Helper work was fair and adequate. Back half helper on the sch3 made lots of good body contact with the dogs on the longbite and some dogs had problems with that. The judge was excellent and definetly rewarded the dogs the fought. A dog that simply "gripped" was not going to V. He was also very critical about silent guarding. If your dog was not active in the guarding he had to be wound-up like a spring if he was going to get a decent score.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Good recap Fast. Spot on.

Chris K's OB was stellar to watch.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Sounds like it was indeed a great event! Hopefully some more videos of the routines will be up soon!


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

"Back half helper on the sch3 made lots of good body contact with the dogs on the longbite and some dogs had problems with that." ???????????

The helpers not supposed to make a lot of body contact on the long bite. Don Yelle's sleeve presentations suck. He tries to bring the sleeve up at the last minute, which is fine, but he only brings it up to waist level. Many times the bite bar is pointed upward. Which is wrong. The presentation he gave to the big Dobe almost went very wrong. The dog is fast and always goes center mass and Don had to raise the sleeve in a hurry. Made himself look bad.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> The helpers not supposed to make a lot of body contact on the long bite.


Where is that rule written?




> [The helper's] sleeve presentations suck. He tries to bring the sleeve up at the last minute, which is fine, but he only brings it up to waist level.


So what? You might not like it but that don't make it wrong. 





> The presentation he gave to the big Dobe almost went very wrong. The dog is fast and always goes center mass and Don had to raise the sleeve in a hurry. Made himself look bad.


I think you are making yourself look far worse than the helper looked at any point during the trial. 

It's not humanly possible for a helper to to catch 80+ dogs and not make a mistake. This guy went out and worked a s- load of the best dogs in the country. Every one of these dogs has it's own idiosyncrasies and he has to figure them out in the 2 seconds it takes a dog to get down field. The simple fact that all of the dogs left the field unhurt makes this guy a hero in my book. 

And we wonder why it's become so hard to find helpers willing to work big events. :rolleyes2:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Helpers always seem to get some of the nastiest critiques by those who have never been there. If Don's helper work had been dangerous or unsafe the judge would have replaced him. Fast is correct. It is hard enough to find helpers that are willing to work their rears off for these big events without having to be attacked by nameless people on message boards.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

As we all know the rules can't state everything. If you wish to know how the catch on the long bite is supposed to go, look at the video of how proper helper work is supposed to be done on the USA site. There is not to be any hard body contact for the safety of both dog and helper. Don Yelle didn't hurt any dog this time. Perhaps. I know that a few of those who pulled their dogs was due to the fact the Don Yelle was doing the back half and they didn't want their dogs hurt. It was his "style" that hurt Chuck v Dorneburger Bach at last years WDC. 

Lisa, yes, fast is fine. I believe when Isaid "He tries to bring the sleeve up at the last minute, which is fine" I made that clear.

As for your nameless comment as you and Don well know my name is Rick Mattox.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> The judge was excellent and definetly rewarded the dogs the fought. A dog that simply "gripped" was not going to V. He was also very critical about silent guarding. If your dog was not active in the guarding he had to be wound-up like a spring if he was going to get a decent score.


:thumbup:


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Who else pulled once they were there and the helper selection was done? There was a pull or two due to injury (not during training). Handlers were upset about having to pull due to that. Known pulls of people that entered and did not show at all. 

Don’s (as well as Marcus’) work was good. Consistent. They worked hard during the selection and the judge made the choice himself on the work. Did not hear anyone, spectator or competitor complain about the helper work.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I wasn't there and the videos I have watched pretty much show the dog coming down the field and the helper comes into view at the last second. However, I have two things to add and maybe one of them can become a discussion about how we are doing the long bites now. 

First, every year, someone complains about something and this is certainly NOT a new occurrence. It does make me wonder how long the person complaining has been in SchH or been entered in trials though. As had been previously mentioned, you can kind of count on things going wrong and when they don't, be happy. I sure would not want to be the ones working that number of dogs and having those expectations of perfection. It is a huge responsibility. I know what it feels like to have people complain about you when you have knocked yourself out trying to help them. Many have a tendency to turn your mistakes into intentional acts to cause harm or a problem for the person. I am pretty certain that doesn't happen very often.

Now to the next point. I talk to people about SchH and lately, some have expressed concern about how the helpers are presenting the sleeve on the long bite. Most like the sleeve down to the side and the helper running at the dog and threatening them and then, at the last minute, the sleeve is brought up for the bite. Many dogs have problems with this and having seen the dogs that do, I think it is a good test. The dogs with fight are going to bring more and accelerate into the helper, where the others will slow down or come out with poor grips and so on. These same people agree with what I just said but the complaint I hear , is about helpers who wait too long to present the sleeve. That is when they feel it gets dangerous and I have to agree. There is a time when the test should end and the safety becomes the biggest concern. You can see the dogs behavior and the helper does not need to wait until the very last second to show the strength or weakness in the dog. The dog will indicate what is or is not disturbing him and I am sure the good judges are seeing it well before the last three feet of the test. It is harder to get everything right when you wait that long because things get rushed and the sleeve may not be presented correctly. Like I said, it is not really necessary either. 

Not saying that happened at the AWDF, just saying I have seen some helpers doing that and the results can get a little dicey.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> As we all know the rules can't state everything. If you wish to know how the catch on the long bite is supposed to go, look at the video of how proper helper work is supposed to be done on the USA site.


Contrary to the beliefs of many, USCA is not the arbiter of schutzhund in the US. They are simply a breed club; just like all the other members of the AWDF. And as a breed club they have the right and obligation to intripid the rules and direct their helper work the way that they see fit. The AWDF Championship is not a USCA trial and is not obligated to follow USCA directives. This year the AWDF Championship was hosted by the AWMA.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't think I could point a bite bar up and only bring waist high if I tried


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Fast said:


> Contrary to the beliefs of many, USCA is not the arbiter of schutzhund in the US. They are simply a breed club; just like all the other members of the AWDF. And as a breed club they have the right and obligation to intripid the rules and direct their helper work the way that they see fit. The AWDF Championship is not a USCA trial and is not obligated to follow USCA directives. This year the AWDF Championship was hosted by the AWMA.


 
I think what you were trying to say is interprete??


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I agree with many of the points that Vandal made. Although I have less of a problem with waiting to the last second to pop the sleeve as I do with a presentation just slightly above waist height. Particularly when most of the dogs are trained to come fast and bite near chest level. When the helper is many times one leg and bent forwards trying to maintain his balance, something is wrong. 

If you didn't hear competitors complaining, then you must not have been with the competitors. The handler of Buster, the dobe previously mentioned, had a very real issue with the way the sleeve was being presented. Prior to their C routine she mentioned to the helper that her dog comes fast and high. Trying to make sure that neither he nor her dog got hurt. Fortunately neither got hurt but the helper had to make a hurried last minute adjustment before being bitten in the chest.

FAST you also asked where the rules state that there isn't to be major body contact? Rules are writen to state what IS to be done. Not what isn't. So show me where it states that there is supposed to be major body contact in the long bite? Under anyones rules. Doesn't have to be USA. Show me FCI, SV..... there's another thread on here about dogs jumping center mass and how people here hate it due to so much body contact an what can go wrong.... As a matter of fact isn't this you post on that thread? 

"I agree 100%. That's why I teach the dogs to go one way or the other consistently. That way the dog indicates very clearly what way he is going and that makes it easier for helpers to make a safe catch. Also no matter how you slice it, dogs that come center mass are more likely to get hurt."

So you like the body contact on this thread but not on the other?????


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> Prior to their C routine she mentioned to the helper that her dog comes fast and high. Trying to make sure that neither he nor her dog got hurt.


Rookie mistake. NEVER DO THIS!!! It get's in the helpers head and makes them second guess the instincts and skills that they have developed over the years. Also is insulting. And it's not too smart to insult the guy that's going to be working your dog. 

I tell every helper I know to reply to this stupid crap with " ****! I was gonna try to break is neck!":wild:


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

No not quite a ROOKIE mistake. Perhaps for thoughs who complain about how he's working dogs to him, yes. But not the way she did it. She just mentions that her dog comes fast and always jumps very high. I have a dog that does the same thing and have had helpers ask me why I didn't say he was going to jump at their heads? In all everyone is concerned with a dogs well being knowing they can be hurt in the LB. Many helpers without ultra-sensitive egos like would like to know these things. of course when put diplomaticly. No helper ever wants to be known as the guy that ended a good dogs career.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

FAST please explain to me where this "good body contact" you mentioned comes in on the LB? In any directions from any authority? There is actually very little body contact. No matter whose helper seminar I've been to, no matter whos rules, the LB is always the sam. The arm is chest level with a bit of distances from the body. That way as the dog come in the helper has room to absorb the impact and not jamb the dog. As the dog comes in the helper is to piviot on one foot letting to dog come through and setting the dog down and driving the dog. Where's the body contact?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

ramgsd said:


> No not quite a ROOKIE mistake. Perhaps for thoughs who complain about how he's working dogs to him, yes. But not the way she did it. She just mentions that her dog comes fast and always jumps very high. I have a dog that does the same thing and have had helpers ask me why I didn't say he was going to jump at their heads? In all everyone is concerned with a dogs well being knowing they can be hurt in the LB. Many helpers without ultra-sensitive egos like would like to know these things. of course when put diplomaticly. No helper ever wants to be known as the guy that ended a good dogs career.


 
Umm I think you meant those


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> So you like the body contact on this thread but not on the other?????


First off, I never said I didn't like body contact. Like I said I teach the dog to go in one direction so it's easier for the helper to catch him. Body contact has nothing to do with it. 



> If you didn't hear competitors complaining, then you must not have been with the competitors.


I was with a lot of competitors and didn't hear any complaints about the helper work. But then again everyone I was hanging out with didn't puss out and pull and they got pretty decent scores. Funny how that works.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Thank you Holland. Yes I did. We have our own personal spell checker.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

QUOTE: "I was with a lot of competitors and didn't hear any complaints about the helper work. But then again everyone I was hanging out with didn't puss out and pull and they got pretty decent scores. Funny how that works.  "

FUNNY a friend of mine didn't care for the helper work, since his dog has already been hurt by said helper. By the way his score was good enough to put him on the podium, AGAIN.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> FAST please explain to me where this "good body contact" you mentioned comes in on the LB? In any directions from any authority?


There was one authority that can't be refuted. The judge at the trial picked that helper and allowed him to do it. 'Nuff said.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

You are right. Enough said on the matter. Perhaps to could PM me and instruct me privately on the "Good body contact LB" I'm always willing to learn.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ramgsd said:


> As for your nameless comment as you and Don well know my name is Rick Mattox.


I actually had no idea who you are. I can't keep track of everyone's board names. I also don't know Don at all. I was defending all trial helpers especially those willing to put themselves out there for the big events.

Added later: Correction, I have met Don. He and I chatted briefly at the 2009 Nationals because his female is a granddaughter of Belschik.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> You are right. Enough said on the matter. Perhaps to could PM me and instruct me privately on the "Good body contact LB" I'm always willing to learn.



Good body contact is when the dog makes contact with the helper in a safe way. The reason I like it is because there are not that many dogs that have seen that type of work. Therefore when they do, it knocks them out of their comfort zone. When dogs are knocked out of their comfort zone a lot of the training is also knocked aside and more of what the dog truly is exposed. 

This is the reason why I hate USCA's push to standardize and homogenize the helper work. Every helper has their own strengths and weaknesses. We should let the helpers be more creative and do more of what they want and are good at, instead of turning them into castrato prancing around imitating some ideal that they will never reach. If a helper has tiger blood he should be allowed to roar.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Rick,

actually, I was around competitors (married to one of them), but not 100% of the time, from thursday (afternoon through draw), Friday-Sunday all day. 

I did not hear Dan say anything anything negative at all, even for the tracking that people complained about. But, was watching the work, helping out at the event, etc. and not hanging around the competitors at all times. But talking to spectators, competitors, etc that thought well of thr work.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

This is the reason why I hate USCA's push to standardize and homogenize the helper work. Every helper has their own strengths and weaknesses. We should let the helpers be more creative and do more of what they want and are good at, instead of turning them into castrato prancing around imitating some ideal that they will never reach. If a helper has tiger blood he should be allowed to roar.[/QUOTE]

I'll have to agree with you that every helper has his own strengths and weaknesses. I don't think it's a USA thing. I think it's a Schutzhund thing to standardize the helper work. It has to be standardized in a trial. It's the same exercises performed the same way every time, for every dog. That makes it fair for every dog. Where the idividuality comes in is the intensity of the helper and the stick. Some will just fan the stick over the dog. Some will lean over the dog with strong downward motion. And of course those that will really thump the dog on the stick hits. I would love to see them bring back the attack out of the blind, the old style LB and the reed stick. Unfortunately those are days gone by. Doubtful to be reserected. 

When it comes right down too it, a trial shows what your dog can do. The right training should show what your dog is.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dogs coming down the field should be focused the decoy and sleeve and should be ready to make the adjustment to the presentation. A dog that goes high for a mid level sleeve presentation is faulty to my way of thinking. This almighty importance of the sleeve presentation is partially a by product of the "flying long bite". IMO.....To just launch at something regardless of where presented is a wrong direction the sport has taken,again IMO. Its looks great, but I like to see a dog that is fast yet under the control to make the adjustment to nail the decoy wherever the sleeve is presented.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> I'll have to agree with you that every helper has his own strengths and weaknesses. I don't think it's a USA thing. I think it's a Schutzhund thing to standardize the helper work.


Sorry but you are just plain wrong about that. I know for a fact that the AWMA does not want to standardized helper work. Nor does any other Malinois club that I know of. 

And you don't have to have standardized helper work for the helpers to work every dog the same during the same trial. 

If you want the attack out of the blind look at the AWDF's AWD program. 

But to each his, go with the organization that plays the way you want to play. Just don't cry about it when the dog trials outside of that organization and they play the game a little bit different.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

OK FAST, you are going to have to explain to me what you think STANDARDIZED means in this instance. Just you saying that they don't want it doesn't make it fact. I see no differences in how these groups want their helper work done. All the work is the same. Escape bite set up. The LB. Show me how any of these differ enough to say it isn't standardized? They all do it the same. Of course there are the slight differences in helpers, but that's just due to human individuality. The only changes in SCH, IPO... are the rule changes that come down through the FCI...


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> OK FAST, you are going to have to explain to me what you think STANDARDIZED means in this instance. Just you saying that they don't want it doesn't make it fact.


I'm not just saying it. The video from the USCA website, that you posted, is a vivid illustration of an attempt to standardize the helper work. They want all of the helpers to do exactly the same thing = Standardization.



> Of course there are the slight differences in helpers, but that's just due to human individuality. The only changes in SCH, IPO... are the rule changes that come down through the FCI...


The differences in helpers in not just do to their individuality. Judges can tell helpers to alter their work. So can the trial secretary. Also every breed and preformance club can give directives. For instance, their has been a bit of a brouhaha about a "new rule" that says some silly crap like GSDs should not heel like many Malinois do. This is not a rule. It is a directive. The SV has told their judges that this is incorrect for a GSD and should not be rewarded. You will still see GSDs being rewarded for "Malinois heeling" in other organizations.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

ramgsd said:


> The handler of Buster, the dobe previously mentioned, had a very real issue with the way the sleeve was being presented. Prior to their C routine she mentioned to the helper that her dog comes fast and high. Trying to make sure that neither he nor her dog got hurt. Fortunately neither got hurt but the helper had to make a hurried last minute adjustment before being bitten in the chest.


Out of curiosity, how does this person feel about you using their name on an internet forum complaining about something?

Whether I felt that way or not, I know I wouldn't appreciate someone speaking for me like that and potentially stirring up trouble.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Talked to Dan after the event for an hour while he drove home - also at WDC last year - he NEVER mentioned Chuck being hurt or made any criticism of any helper at either event....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Lee


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Fast, so once again you can't back up your claim about no standardization. Yes judges will tell helpers to alter there work if they aren't doing something that is correct. ie. pumping the are on the excape bite... You can't stay on target can you? No one mentioned directives in OB. It has no bearing here. Even if you wish to admit it or not helper work is STANDARDIZED. The helper has to do the routine and present the sleeve in the same manner from trial to trial. I's done with this debate you can't stay on task and your arguments hold no merit. 

As for your ? GSDElsa I never used her name and she doesn't mind since I never said she voiced a complaint. Just that she tried to let the helper know that her dog comes higher than he's been presenting so neither her dog and the helper got hurt. Don't look for issues where there is none.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ramgsd said:


> Fast, so once again you can't back up your claim about no standardization. Yes judges will tell helpers to alter there work if they aren't doing something that is correct. ie. pumping the are on the excape bite... You can't stay on target can you? No one mentioned directives in OB. It has no bearing here. Even if you wish to admit it or not helper work is STANDARDIZED. The helper has to do the routine and present the sleeve in the same manner from trial to trial. I's done with this debate you can't stay on task and your arguments hold no merit.


If helper work is standardized, than why did the judge allow those helpers to do the things that have your booty so chapped?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> This almighty importance of the sleeve presentation is partially a by product of the *"flying long bite". IMO.....To just launch at something regardless of where presented is a wrong direction the sport has taken,again *IMO.


This is so true.. So many people judge a dog on this one aspect of the protection phase.. And the dog that comes fast, yet slows some or adjusts to target are the ones that get dissed by many.. Even tho the latter dog showed more fight throughout all the exercises..

I've heard all the side comments at trials and in training..


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I watch the OB closely as well. Some dogs just walked beside the handler, not focused at all (looking around) more handler help at this level than I would have thought (adjusting the bib - old one, lots of body help).


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Yes, ob is fun to watch.. Especially those dogs that show a lot of intensity.. Same with tracking.. I like a dog that is intense and focused on the track. 

Sue- the picture Betty L. got of the dog going down with the helper, was that one of yours?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

No - think that was Gary D'Hue's young male or Doc (from Kandi). I had to leave to get Cara, clean kennels, feed dogs, change/change of clothes for Gabor and run back up to draw night.

Quasi was used on Marcus and Kyle initially (we offered to provide a dog for the helpers). Mike Diehl's comment - "I like that dog, but hated working him"... Quasi hits hard and dominates the helper :-0. He had not really been work since last June's SCH3 and a tune up at the SE Regionals after the trial work on Sat, so he was a little pumped....


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Quasi sounds like a super nice dog!


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't care so much about a flying bite. They're easier to catch than one that comes up at the last moment. The fliers are nice and smooth and easy. Not dangerous at all IMO.

I like a dog that is committed and comes hard, regardless if it comes from up and under at the last second, or if it flies. A dog that isn't committed isn't really going to do it. Not like the ones that have it in them. 

It's a sport, if a dog flies, I don't care. It is fun to watch. I dont' care if a person could move out of the way in real life. In real life, i'm not sending my dog to bite someone like that anyway, not unless I want to be sued, and lose all my money and my dog.

A dog that comes like that can be easily trained to do anything at the instant right before it bites. But it will always be committed and driven thru the bite and that will always be obvious no matter how they are doing it. and I do prefer the ones that fly, it's just easier.


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## laurajeanb (Apr 19, 2011)

Fast said:


> A dog that simply "gripped" was not going to V. He was also very critical about silent guarding. If your dog was not active in the guarding he had to be wound-up like a spring if he was going to get a decent score.


I agree with the other things you said regarding the judging. Regarding the comments above...did any dog V in protection?

I'm not sure I agree with the silent guarding comment...I remember watching at least one dog doing a silent guard who had the lookie-loos at least twice who ended up with a high SG score. Watching it, yes, but I didn't think he was very critical.

Laura


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Smithie86 said:


> No - think that was Gary D'Hue's young male or Doc (from Kandi).


It was not Doc that the helper went down on the escape bite at tryouts, so it was Gary's young dog.

I agree Chris K's 98 obedience was stellar to watch. But, I must mention I am now a bit sick and tired of watching it. Over and over and over...lol. Can't say I would not do the same if I got a 98 though.

Tracking was tough. We had a re-track because the tracks were so close together that when the dog before us missed his second turn, he and his handler and the judges walked all over our track. Unfortunately this was not decided until AFTER the dog tried his heart out, and our second track was 4 hours later at 2pm when it was 91 degrees, on a different field, and quite the wind. Very proud of our dog for making it through that one, grass tracking is NOT easy to practice on in the desert of California. This stuff was lots of dead vegetation.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Thanks - thought it was Gary's 2 yo.

Come on Michelle - we will set up the loop for you ....

I think this is one thing that is, unless you were there, hard to visualize - how drastically the weather changed, sometimes one mimute to the next. No wind, slight clouds OK temps to gusting, no clouds and HOT.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Sue very true, it was ALL over the place.

It was great to meet you, though. And you got some beautiful pictures of our dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Amazing slideshow here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjyCpOLKgms&feature=player_embedded


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