# Weak nerve dog, my new puppy



## ILOVEGSD (Oct 22, 2011)

Apparently the thread from earlier was deleted. 

Looking for advice on how to handle weak nerve dog. 

My puppy Fiona runs from people, dogs, and puppies


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Wait... do you have a weak nerved dog AND a new puppy or your new puppy is weak nerved?

I didn't see it, but why was your thread deleted? I thought we didn't delete threads here.


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## ILOVEGSD (Oct 22, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Wait... do you have a weak nerved dog AND a new puppy or your new puppy is weak nerved?
> 
> I didn't see it, but why was your thread deleted? I thought we didn't delete threads here.


Apparently they do delete them, right my new puppy Fiona has weak nerves. Very very timid


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I was literally just looking at that thread a few minutes ago...strange.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Give her more exposure to all things that she is afraid of. 
BUT
Be there to support and protect her. Don't force her, just expose her.
Repeated exposure under controlled conditions where she trusts you.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I was searching for it and wondered where it had gone!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok... how old is your puppy? How long have you had him? What kind of socialization/training have you done with him? What does your breeder have to say about this... did they offer any of this advice?

Sorry if you're repeating anything from your deleted thread, I didn't see it, that's why I'm asking this stuff.

Really strange that a thread was deleted, though. I can only remember one other thread that was deleted (outside of spamming/advertising threads) and that went on for like 40+ pages before it was deleted.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Me too. The magic of the board! Contact your breeder and let them help you through this. We here, have given advice, I know you read it....and it will be lifelong management if the pup does have weaker nerves. Are you up for that??? 

This thread will probably dissappear too, as long as you have your signature showing.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

When did it start, because you seemed quite happy with her at the outset?


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Your breeder offers free socialization and help until the pup is 6 months old according to her website. I would start there. I'm not quite sure why we're making a thread about it on a website she participates in when you have that option to work with her directly. Unless you had the puppy shipped to you? Regardless, I think you got a lot of great answers in the previous thread.


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Was it deleted because the person you got the puppy from is a moderator and it is bad press?


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Oops, not a moderator.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

OP... you care to give a little more info regarding your puppy and why you think it has weak nerves? 

I'd be interested in hearing from the breeder as well. I don't know anything about her breeding program or her dogs, but seems to produce some very sound dogs and is pretty respected here. Something definitely seems a little off here.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

How do you tell (for sure) if a puppy has weak nerves or if it's environment. 
I think of a "weak nerve" puppy as one that is shy from the git-go and that does not describe your puppy, when I read back about her and view her photos.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Shaina said:


> Your breeder offers free socialization and help until the pup is 6 months old according to her website. I would start there. I'm not quite sure why we're making a thread about it on a website she participates in when you have that option to work with her directly. Unless you had the puppy shipped to you? Regardless, I think you got a lot of great answers in the previous thread.


I was reading that thread and went away for a bit and came back and it had gone

Why shouldn't this person be allowed to discuss this on here like any other person who has a problem Shaina??
Just because the breeder is a member the post was deleted and she shouldn't ask for advice?? That is not right IMO.


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## lilysmom (Dec 27, 2000)

I think you answered your own question.. best of luck


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

sparra said:


> I was reading that thread and went away for a bit and came back and it had gone
> 
> Why shouldn't this person be allowed to discuss this on here like any other person who has a problem Shaina??
> Just because the breeder is a member the post was deleted and she shouldn't ask for advice?? That is not right IMO.


I 100% agree. I didn't see the original post, but someone should be able to discuss their situation as long as the post remains civil.

As far as the dog having weak nerves...even the best breeders produce some duds every once in awhile. I'd socialize, socialize, socialize, and love her none the less!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> How do you tell (for sure) if a puppy has weak nerves or if it's environment.
> I think of a "weak nerve" puppy as one that is shy from the git-go and that does not describe your puppy, when I read back about her and view her photos.


Well, so far, all I'm reading is a bunch of breeder bashing without much other information. My puppy is this, my puppy may have that, my puppy is from this breeder. 

I may be wrong here, but something smells a little fishy. 

OP... if you're legitimately asking for advice, we're going to need some more info than what you're providing us with.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Well, so far, all I'm reading is a bunch of breeder bashing without much other information. My puppy is this, my puppy may have that, my puppy is from this breeder.
> 
> I may be wrong here, but something smells a little fishy.
> 
> OP... if you're legitimately asking for advice, we're going to need some more info than what you're providing us with.


She did give lots of details in her original thread and was getting advice and they deleted it.....did you read the first one??


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Well, so far, all I'm reading is a bunch of breeder bashing without much other information. My puppy is this, my puppy may have that, my puppy is from this breeder.
> 
> I may be wrong here, but something smells a little fishy.
> 
> OP... if you're legitimately asking for advice, we're going to need some more info than what you're providing us with.


A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sparra said:


> She did give lots of details in her original thread and was getting advice and they deleted it.....did you read the first one??


I didn't. Stupid college basketball kept me busy all day.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Uh Huh....


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I think it's poor practice to delete the thread just because the breeder is also a member here. I posted on a forum that my breeder belongs to about the problems I experienced with Amaretto, which include reactivity and my expectations (like the OP's), and expect it to not be deleted. This problem is like the gabillion other nervous/fearful/reactive threads we have. I don't see why the OP cannot post and receive advice about the situation. I'm not too sure the rules about breeder bashing ( and agree that in clear breeder bashing cases it should be deleted) so I apologize if I've overstepped when I deliver this opinion, but as a great fan of this forum, I hope it isn't hampered by lack of free speech. 

I'm not sure if you saw my post on your original thread, but my vote is to take your breeder up on the offer and exchange the puppy. If DM is a big deal to you and you were under the impression that the sire is getting tested, ask to wait until the sire IS tested before going forth with another pup. The refund might be difficult if you go stricly by the contract, since I recall my contract stating that monetary refunds are not viable, but the breeder will agree to exchange the pup for a multitude of reasons. But that is just BY THE CONTRACT, and you might have some flexibility if you work directly with your breeder. 

I can empathize with your situation, since my Amaretto is reactive to dogs(could be handling error, could be a phase, could be a number of things). She is SO SO solid in every other situation, and has always been eager to try new things and greet new people. But just this ONE issue already has me so frustrated and upset. Like you, I got my puppy expecting perfection. I was offered a replacement pup, and decided not to take it and work with her instead, since it is only ONE issue. However, given that your puppy seems to have a bit more issues, and you are UPSET about it, I would exchange the pup while it is still young. You are attached now, but give it a few months, it'll be near IMPOSSIBLE to make that rational decision when you stare your pup in the face.

I can't imagine spending however much you spent on the pup, expecting a solid companion, but receive a dog that needs to be managed constantly and vigilantly for the next 10 years in many aspects of its life.

So in summary, take that offer while it is still there!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Why all the side-tracking to another thread?
Why not just respond to this one?


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Well, so far, all I'm reading is a bunch of breeder bashing without much other information. My puppy is this, my puppy may have that, my puppy is from this breeder.
> 
> I may be wrong here, but something smells a little fishy.
> 
> OP... if you're legitimately asking for advice, we're going to need some more info than what you're providing us with.


The OP had background information in the other thread. I guess the OP assumed everyone here followed from the original one.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

PaddyD said:


> A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.


Are you sure about that?

Ending sentences with prepositions - Oxford Dictionaries Online


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

marshies said:


> I think it's poor practice to delete the thread just because the breeder is also a member here. I posted on a forum that my breeder belongs to about the problems I experienced with Amaretto, which include reactivity and my expectations (like the OP's), and expect it to not be deleted. This problem is like the gabillion other nervous/fearful/reactive threads we have. I don't see why the OP cannot post and receive advice about the situation. I'm not too sure the rules about breeder bashing ( and agree that in clear breeder bashing cases it should be deleted) so I apologize if I've overstepped when I deliver this opinion, but as a great fan of this forum, I hope it isn't hampered by lack of free speech.
> 
> I'm not sure if you saw my post on your original thread, but my vote is to* take your breeder up on the offer and exchange the puppy*. If DM is a big deal to you and you were under the impression that the sire is getting tested, ask to wait until the sire IS tested before going forth with another pup. The refund might be difficult if you go stricly by the contract, since I recall my contract stating that monetary refunds are not viable, but the breeder will agree to exchange the pup for a multitude of reasons. *But that is just BY THE CONTRACT*, and you might have some flexibility if you work directly with your breeder.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Marshies, but sometimes we should be cautious with what we put out 'there' because it can be interpreted differently per individuals. 
If I post a youtube about my dogs protection work(20 seconds for example) the helper will be uber scrutinized along with the pedigree and breeder of my dog. It just happens. And many breeders don't want that because any time a google search is done, a thread will become a link to them. The internet can be detrimental....or beneficial, just depends on who reads what into what.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

On the other thread the OP stated that the pup is 11 weeks old-I think that it is too young to judge her as "weak nerved". Some pups are simply shyer then others and will gain more confidence as they age. I wouldn't be panicking at this point if I were the OP. Just give it time.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

CeCe said:


> On the other thread the OP stated that the pup is 11 weeks old-I think that it is too young to judge her as "weak nerved". Some pups are simply shyer then others and will gain more confidence as they age. I wouldn't be panicking at this point if I were the OP. Just give it time.


What other thread? I can only handle one at a time.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

CeCe said:


> On the other thread the OP stated that the pup is 11 weeks old-I think that it is too young to judge her as "weak nerved". Some pups are simply shyer then others and will gain more confidence as they age. I wouldn't be panicking at this point if I were the OP. Just give it time.


Possibly, but an e_xtremely_ shy puppy isn't always a sign of positive things to come either. 

In my experience, a strong nerved dog should be confident from day one in its new home. I'd expect nothing less.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> Ending sentences with prepositions - Oxford Dictionaries Online


er, um, that's an old grammar 'joke'
But it's always good to add to the limited stores of knowledge.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with you Marshies, but sometimes we should be cautious with what we put out 'there' because it can be interpreted differently per individuals.
> If I post a youtube about my dogs protection work(20 seconds for example) the helper will be uber scrutinized along with the pedigree and breeder of my dog. It just happens. And many breeders don't want that because any time a google search is done, a thread will become a link to them. The internet can be detrimental....or beneficial, just depends on who reads what into what.


Yes I agree, but the perception can be managed. On my thread, my breeder came on and was a solid support and source of more advice. I think anyone reading that will see 

a) my breeder went above and beyond her contractual duties and WANTS me to be happy with whichever pup/decision I chose
b) my breeder can be relied upon for advice when problems arise. Dogs are organic beings (or so my trainer keeps trying to drill into me), and will ALWAYS have one kind of problem or another, whether it's health, temperament, or appearance. It's how people respond to these difficulties that count. As an example, I remember when another board member had a pup die suddenly. My perception of the breeder of that pup wasn't marred because she stepped up to the plate and offered a replacement even though it wasn't required of her.

Anyways...glad we see eye to eye on the replacement issue. The rest are just my thoughts and my opinions.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> Possibly, but an e_xtremely_ shy puppy isn't always a sign of positive things to come either.
> 
> In my experience, a strong nerved dog should be confident from day one in its new home. I'd expect nothing less.


I agree, with the exception of trauma or other domination. A pup goes thru imprinting stage and that can be traumatic. But I surely would expect recovery and not ongoing problems 3 weeks later(and in different environments the dog should be bomb proof) I don't think the OP has made the dog into what is showing. This is probably where the breeder needs to step in and help the pup they produced to it's potential NOW. Waiting longer is just going to be harder for all concerned/especially Fiona.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Im not trying to say they can't post a thread asking - I'm just saying with an 11 week old puppy and a respected breeder, my first choice would be talking with the breeder and seeing what could be done... not posting on the forums calling the pup weak nerved and such so young. I just think it lacks a little bit of courtesy on the OPs part to only post their side of the story on a forum that the breeder frequents - she says she contacted her in the last thread, but didn't say what the breeder has offered to do, etc.

Everybody already gave advice - talk to the breeder about a new puppy, training, and socialize. That's really all that CAN be done with an 11 week old IMO, so it seems posting here is just going to cause hard feelings.. which isn't what I would want with MY breeder, personally.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

PaddyD said:


> A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.





Lucy Dog said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> Ending sentences with prepositions - Oxford Dictionaries Online


Haha, it's funny because the word "with" is a preposition and he ended the sentence. . . never mind.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree,* with the exception of trauma or other domination*. A pup goes thru imprinting stage and that can be traumatic. But I surely would expect recovery and not ongoing problems 3 weeks later(and in different environments the dog should be bomb proof) I don't think the OP has made the dog into what is showing. This is probably where the breeder needs to step in and help the pup they produced to it's potential NOW. Waiting longer is just going to be harder for all concerned/especially Fiona.


That's true. I wasn't really even taking that into consideration. I'm speaking for a normal household without anything like that going on with such a young puppy (or any dog for that matter).

I didn't see any of that first thread, so I don't really know what was said. Based on what I've read (and still waiting for the OP to go into more detail without the information being deleted, ahem mods), the puppy is scared of everyone and everything and the OP doesn't know why. That's all I can go by.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I think OP said that the breeder offered a replacement pup, but when OP said "yes, I'd like a replacement pup", there has been no response from the breeder for the better part of a week.

If the original thread was indeed removed because someone didn't like it, that is pretty shameful.  The OP is just looking for help and advice, and if the breeder won't respond to her, where is she supposed to go?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Emoore said:


> Haha, it's funny because the word "with" is a preposition and he ended the sentence. . . never mind.


Lol... that's exactly what I was thinking when I first read that. That's why I couldn't tell if he was being serious or not. It's so hard to read sarcasm over the internet... sometimes you just don't know.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I thought that he had asked for something other than a replacement.. a refund of some sorts perhaps, I don't remember exactly.. and these are the details that we need in order to really offer a solution imo. If it were me, I would be exchanging the puppy, no matter how attached I was to it. 

Past posts show that the OP and the breeder were on excellent terms a few weeks ago - I am just very confused as to how this has changed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If I were the breeder, the pup would be the concern, so relationship w/ the owner would be dicey if it were shakey. 
If I felt the pup wasn't in good hands, I'd keep that communication ongoing, regardless of my feelings and try to give the owner every tool imaginable to help what I produced. Or take back the pup so I could do it. That is part of the responsibility of a breeder. One reason I got out of breeding Parrots, I couldn't control their life to my standards(and they can live as long as humans!)


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Give her more exposure to all things that she is afraid of.
> BUT
> Be there to support and protect her. Don't force her, just expose her.
> Repeated exposure under controlled conditions where she trusts you.


 
And above all, DO NOT PET OR OTHERWISE REINFORCE ANY SHY BEHAVIOR!

Don't correct it either just ignore it as much as you can.


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

marshies said:


> Yes I agree, but the perception can be managed. On my thread, my breeder came on and was a solid support and source of more advice. I think anyone reading that will see
> 
> a) my breeder went above and beyond her contractual duties and WANTS me to be happy with whichever pup/decision I chose
> b) my breeder can be relied upon for advice when problems arise. Dogs are organic beings (or so my trainer keeps trying to drill into me), and will ALWAYS have one kind of problem or another, whether it's health, temperament, or appearance. It's how people respond to these difficulties that count. As an example, I remember when another board member had a pup die suddenly. My perception of the breeder of that pup wasn't marred because she stepped up to the plate and offered a replacement even though it wasn't required of her.
> ...


I also have a great breeder. He does live over 2 hours away but said that his is a lifetime relationship and he is available 24/7 for any questions or help.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't stick the label "weak nerve" on the pup who is showing caution , don't inadvertantly reward avoidance behaviour, or get upset and emotional if she does retreat . 
Sometimes the "chemistry" is just not there . The pup might be totally different with someone else.

I have seen it with adult dogs imported for service . Switch the handler and there is a mutual thing going on and the dog works like a charm . 

Instead of tolerating and or contributing to a problem , contact the breeder , get their help .


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> don't stick the label "weak nerve" on the pup who is showing caution , don't inadvertantly reward avoidance behaviour, or get upset and emotional if she does retreat .
> Sometimes the "chemistry" is just not there . The pup might be totally different with someone else.
> 
> I have seen it with adult dogs imported for service . Switch the handler and there is a mutual thing going on and the dog works like a charm .
> ...


I resonate strongly with your post, Carmen.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes , thanks msMarshies, I am trying to find documented PERIODS of developmental INSTABILITY as per the Bar Harbour experiments . 8 to 12 weeks was the classic time frame . It matters what you do during this period. Some animals will enter a period of caution . Seems this is a self protective devise so that an animal at a physically vulnerable stage doesn't get too bold , too studpid , too fast. In the studies there was no lasting effect and you would not be able to identify which dogs had gone through the phase as pups.
You have to remember these are complex , living, dynamic beings acting upon and reacting to their environment.
The best thing you could do as the owner is to be neutral and supportive . Labeling as "weak nerve" or shy is not neutral.
I assume the pup was "good" , had been seen by a vet prior to leaving or after in the new home where some comments would have been made.

Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay this might be of interest Developmental Stages


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> yes , thanks msMarshies, I am trying to find documented PERIODS of developmental INSTABILITY as per the Bar Harbour experiments . 8 to 12 weeks was the classic time frame . It matters what you do during this period. Some animals will enter a period of caution . Seems this is a self protective devise so that an animal at a physically vulnerable stage doesn't get too bold , too studpid , too fast. In the studies there was no lasting effect and you would not be able to identify which dogs had gone through the phase as pups.
> You have to remember these are complex , living, dynamic beings acting upon and reacting to their environment.
> The best thing you could do as the owner is to be neutral and supportive . Labeling as "weak nerve" or shy is not neutral.
> I assume the pup was "good" , had been seen by a vet prior to leaving or after in the new home where some comments would have been made.
> ...


I would be curious to hear more about that. Puppy first came to my home and was completely fine with other dogs. At some point, SOMETHING must've happened that I didn't even notice and she started barking. I MUST"VE done something wrong in terms of our relationship and my handling to further it. It'll be nice to see how these pieces fit together.

It's funny because you and Michael say the same thing. Complex, living, evolving...not a process for me to perfect, not a check box for me to tick.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in the original thread I did ask what the pups interactions were like with the OP -- does the dog engage , play, cope with little pressures .
Pups may enter this cautious period , some so subtle you would miss it , others obvious.
If you continue with pleasant human contact , good experiences the dog will exit without a problem . 
If however, you traumatize the dog at this period then this will leave a mark.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Some animals will enter a period of caution . Seems this is a self protective devise so that an animal at a physically vulnerable stage doesn't get too bold , too studpid , too fast. In the studies there was no lasting effect and you would not be able to identify which dogs had gone through the phase as pups.


I have seen pups go through this phase and come out of it just fine. I have seen other pups suddenly become fearful and never come out of it... they are cautious, fearful, skittish, for life. With no traumatic event, or anything that you could point to as a reason.

I have also seen pups who did not seem to go through any phase of caution, even if traumatized. Good temperament is hard to ruin. I've seen dogs that suffered horrible trauma or abuse, that did nothing but wag their tails at everything, and showed no fearfulness at all.

It's all about the underlying temperament of the dog. Sometimes it's hard to assess in an 11 week old pup, but at what point do we stop saying "it's just a phase"? After 3 weeks? 5 months? 2 years?

I'd be interested to see that Bar Harbor study.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

i think i saw that thread and wondered about it as well. 

In my experience Zeeva blossomed in her puppy training classes but that blossom didn't transfer over to her real world experiences. She is fine for some reason around MY family (bless her) but other dogs and strangers are a big no to her. Just keep at it. I've also learned to just let Zeeva be sometimes and to not push her too much. It's been a balancing act.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Look, weak nerves can come out of any breeding or breeder. Period. Thr frequency of this defines the breeder more than a specific example. I have not read any breeder bashing, but I don't think we have enough info to assess the breeder/OP dynamics.
I will say that I don't think that it is normal for a pup to RUN from people or new things in general. Puppies by nature are inquisitive, though they can also be cautious and both are acceptable. Fearful is not acceptable as normal.
Lastly, wl dogs are also weak nerved occasionally, no where as big a problem as sl dogs, but it does crop up.
I feel bad for OP, because we ALL want a confident noble dog as this exemplifies the breed......hopefully this has a good ending.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

As for the other thread being deleted, I can't speak for the mod who did it, but I will throw my 2 cents out there.

Breeder bashing isn't allowed here. While it was pretty obvious where the dog came from, and the OP certainly has the right to ask for help, if they weren't getting satisfactory answers via email from the breeder, there is the telephone. They should have left the details about the transaction out of it, and just asked for help.

The OP certainly has the option of returning the puppy (which I know can be a very hard thing to do). 

With that said, I'm sure the OP will appreciate any and all suggestions to help him(her) with this puppy, just leave the breeder comments out of it


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Diane, we should also be careful what's posted in breeder section....because I see discussions like this all the time when people inquire about breeders....meaning references to types of dogs that people have seen from a breeder. Just curious. I didn't realize that was offbase. But again people can always do a pm.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

cliff, I agree, it is a fine line, especially when someone comes asking about a breeder etc...I don't have an answer to that other than I know 'positives' can be posted but when it comes to the 'negatives' they are asked to take it to pm.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

This is a living, breathing creature.....and a youngster at that.
All animals (including humans) grow through period of changes and adjustments.....it's just a plain fact of life.
This pup is 11 wks old....and it's age, genetics, environment and pack dynamics, can/will cause changes in it's "characteristic" behaviors...
*There are too many labels placed on fractions of behavior and reactions to actually know where this puppy is at this point....and what it will display, later in life.* JMO

There is no reason to comment negatively towards the breeder......they have done their job, when they carefully selected their mating pair....
Since all living creatures *evolve and change*......there is no crystal ball to offer an absolute future story for each puppy.

_When is doubt, when in confusion, when in need......._*contact your breeder.....*that should ALWAYS be the starting point, when looking for resolution....


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I also wanted to add......I agree with some of the posts...
It is very stressful for both owner and breeder when things aren't "perfect"....
_BUT....the buyer/owner should always attempt *resolution & security* from their breeder...._sometimes the return of the animal is the best (not always the easiest) solution.

I hope that I did not offend anyone with my previous post......not my intentions.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

robin, I totally agree with you


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

I didn't get to read the original thread, so I don't know all of the instances that makes him believe that Fiona is weak nerved, but I'll add my thoughts.

I have an 11 week puppy at home, also. In the home, he has been wonderful. Nothing phases him, he does not get upset or startled by loud noises and meets new people excitedly. Then we got our 2nd set of shots and were ready to take on the big, bad world outside the front door. 
At first, he was very cautious. His confidence was not the same as it was in the house. However, I made sure he knew that I was there for him, without coddling him, and I could see his confidence grow with each step forward. By the time we got back from our walk around the block, he was ready to go again! 

Same thing with the stairs. He has no problem going up the stairs, but when he wants to go down, he just sits at the top and cries for mommy to come rescue him. I can tell that he is very afraid of the stairs. So we started small. I took him up just two steps, and coaxed him down with food, and praised him for each step he made. He took it very slow, but now is happily going down 6 full stairs all by himself. He is still not ready to make it down a whole flight, but I know we will be there soon! I am not pushing him, but helping him gain his confidence. 

We also just went to our first puppy class yesterday. When we walked in, he was bombarded by 3 very small breed puppies that were zipping around the room. They rushed up to him, and I could tell that he was a little nervous, but I sat beside him and he knew that I would protect him and in just a few minutes, he was in the fray and having a blast. Yes, he was hesitant and shy at first, but he overcame it quickly, and he overcame it on his terms…I didn’t push him. There were a few times, when he went under a chair to escape one overly-exuberant puppy, but didn’t stay there for long. 
All in all, I wouldn’t say my puppy has bad nerves, but that he is cautious when experiencing new things. He is still a baby and I wouldn’t expect him to not be a little nervous at this young age. Maybe I'd feel differently if he were 5 months old, but he is only 11 weeks. He is looking to me to protect him, as I believe he should at this age. I think it is MY job to help him gain his confidence.

This is why socialization is so important when they are so young. So that they can experience new things and new people and slowly build that confidence. I don’t believe that it happens overnight. Now that he’s had his shots, I will be adding to his new experiences on a daily basis.

I am relatively new to GSDs. I have one adult and now this new puppy. Maybe it is my lack of experience that makes me think that the way he behaves is perfectly normal for his age, so take this for what its worth. J


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*The original thread was deleted because it had turned into a huge attack fest on the breeder. Asking for help is one thing, but by the time I was able to read the thread the intent had changed dramatically. Breeder bashing is NOT allowed on this board. 

The OP was sent a PM immediately after the thread was deleted explaining the reasons. 

Get back on topic or this thread will be closed and some warnings issued.


**ADMIN Lisa*

********


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

jprice103 said:


> We also just went to our first puppy class yesterday. When we walked in, he was bombarded by 3 very small breed puppies that were zipping around the room. They rushed up to him, and I could tell that he was a little nervous, but I sat beside him and he knew that I would protect him and in just a few minutes, he was in the fray and having a blast. Yes, he was hesitant and shy at first, but he overcame it quickly, and he overcame it on his terms…I didn’t push him. There were a few times, when he went under a chair to escape one overly-exuberant puppy, but didn’t stay there for long.




Since I witnessed this, I'll add that Panzer wasn't afraid even when he was under the chair, that dog had poor manners and Panzer told him he wouldn't play with him like that. He sat back and assessed the situation before jumping in unlike the Scottie who bull dozed in and pushed everyone around (and who Panzer handled wonderfully). In the last class there really was a weaked nerved GSD puppy, she wouldn't approach people and most especially dogs. She hid under her owners' chair and tried to run away every chance she got. BIG difference. 




jprice103 said:


> This is why socialization is so important when they are so young. So that they can experience new things and new people and slowly build that confidence. I don’t believe that it happens overnight. Now that he’s had his shots, I will be adding to his new experiences on a daily basis.


This part is important. The world is a big, new thing to them. Cautious and taking it all in is different from truly weak nerved. I hope the OP will get their pup into classes soon to make sure that their pup has many positive experiences and lives up her potential. If you aren't up for that, please return her to the breeder so that she has the opportunity to receive the socialization she needs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

codmaster said:


> And above all, DO NOT PET OR OTHERWISE REINFORCE ANY SHY BEHAVIOR!
> 
> Don't correct it either just ignore it as much as you can.


While this seems simple enough, I wanted to reiterate this point.
I've met people who have created the barking frightened creature their dog has become because they will reach down, pat the dog and say "It's okay!" as if it is a frightened child.
No, dogs are not frightened kids, and they need to be ignored for any signs of timidness or fright. 
When they work up the nerve to explore again, that's when you encourage "What a good girl!" but not overly demonstrative in your encouraging.

We've had timid dogs come in, especially timid pups, that can be worked with easily enough. If the owner coddles or doesn't continue to expose the pup to new things, only rewarding puppy when it's over being afraid of the new situations, this is when a dog is created that can spend it's entire life being timid/afraid.

It can be done. We had (foster) sister dogs that were adopted out, both were undersocialized as puppies (think "barn" or "yard dogs"), never having been exposed to anything and interactions with people were few and neutral at best, so their fear of humans would cause them to roll on their backs and piddle. Well, we sent the puppies to new homes with instructions to keep the dog leashed and gently help her back to a sitting position, rewarding for the "sit" even though the owner manipulated the puppy into the sit with a leash. Continue in that manner, ignoring all the behavior in between the puppy falling/rolling over and when it's sitting. 

Sure enough, the girls grew up and one was actually returned due to ongoing shyness. The owner did not work with that puppy at all. 
The owner of the other puppy girl has a very confident dog that becomes a bit timid in new situations but they continue to ignore those signs and reward her for "being brave" and not shying away. 

She's become a wonderful K9 citizen they take everywhere. The other puppy, returned. 

It's not hard to work with the puppy but you must throw out any notion of "sympathy" for the shy/fearful puppy. While not overwhelming her, you must continue to expose her to everything.
If you do overwhelm her, back off to a comfortable zone, reward that, and start over. Do not hesitate to get the puppy to a "safe zone" far enough away from whatever situation is worrying her, to keep her calm and not overwhelm her.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> It's not hard to work with the puppy but you must throw out any notion of "sympathy" for the shy/fearful puppy. While not overwhelming her, you must continue to expose her to everything.


Absolutely! And at the same time...don't get ANGRY or yell at the puppy for being timid and/or force them into a situation that YOU think they should feel comfortable with, because that will also do damage.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

It really bothers me when people expect their puppies to be these perfect little machines that require no true work or effort.

As Robin said, these are LIVING, BREATHING beings and they are not machines with programed behaviours and personalities. If you notice you have a shy puppy, that means you need to put EFFORT into socialization and raising for the baby to grow into a stable adult. It's not magic, it doesn't just 'happen'... you have to raise a puppy for it to be an ideal adult. Genetics play a part, but it's not everything.

It is beyond unfair to target the breeder. He or she cannot possibly breed mechanical dogs that are absolute perfection. No puppy is perfect, no dog is perfect... that's the bottom line.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> This part is important. The world is a big, new thing to them. Cautious and taking it all in is different from truly weak nerved. I hope the OP will get their pup into classes soon to make sure that their pup has many positive experiences and lives up her potential. If you aren't up for that, please return her to the breeder so that she has the opportunity to receive the socialization she needs.


:thumbup:




msvette2u said:


> I've met people who have created the barking frightened creature their dog has become because they will reach down, pat the dog and say "It's okay!" as if it is a frightened child.
> 
> 
> We've had timid dogs come in, especially timid pups, that can be worked with easily enough. If the owner coddles or doesn't continue to expose the pup to new things, only rewarding puppy when it's over being afraid of the new situations, this is when a dog is created that can spend it's entire life being timid/afraid.
> ...


:thumbup:

Some very good points....I think sometimes new puppy owners have done so much "reading" before they get their puppy they are constantly on the "look-out". They are so worried about aggression, nerviness, fear behavior that rather than enjoying the new puppy they are disecting it's every "action" and looking for something to indicate the pup isn't perfect. NO puppy is perfect, not every sign of cautiousness on it's part is evidence of it being a nervebag either. I would venture a guess that among well bred dogs like the one the OP has, fear and nervousness are often more nurture vs nature. 

To the OP I would either commit to loving the dog and quit treating them as fearful based on your perceptions...continue to expose them in a healthy way to new environments ....or give the puppy back to the breeder can work with the pup in a healthy way without the labeling and preconceptions. Others have pointed out that we can create what we fear....I would be very careful in working with the pup to not do it anxiously awaiting a "weak fearful" reaction...or that's what you'll get.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lhczth said:


> *The original thread was deleted because it had turned into a huge attack fest on the breeder.*


 I must have missed the "attack fest". I only saw remarks urging the OP to work it out with the breeder. I didn't even know who the breeder was until someone PM'd me.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> It really bothers me when people expect their puppies to be these perfect little machines that require no true work or effort.
> 
> As Robin said, these are LIVING, BREATHING beings and they are not machines with programed behaviours and personalities. If you notice you have a shy puppy, that means you need to put EFFORT into socialization and raising for the baby to grow into a stable adult. It's not magic, it doesn't just 'happen'... you have to raise a puppy for it to be an ideal adult. Genetics play a part, but it's not everything.
> 
> It is beyond unfair to target the breeder. He or she cannot possibly breed mechanical dogs that are absolute perfection. No puppy is perfect, no dog is perfect... that's the bottom line.


I agree and disagree. The reason I bought my pup from a breeder with the lines I liked was so that I had a confident, willing puppy. If I paid $1500 and got a timid, nervous puppy, I hate to say that I would be speaking to my breeder about a new pup. I may feel a little strongly about it since I do schutzhund with her, but if I wanted to take a big gamble with a puppy's nerves I would just buy a $200 craigslist puppy. I am NOT saying it is the breeders fault, but I am saying that the OP has every right to be concerned.

That being said, if the OP is willing to work with it, I'm sure this pup can be worked with this young. I just don't think it is fair to criticize anyone saying they'd prefer to exchange the puppy.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I believe the OP *is* socializing the puppy, going to classes, etc. The pup has reacted fearfully in these situations. Just touching the nose of another puppy was a huge step for her. I really wish the other thread had not been deleted, as OP went into detail with everything she's doing with the pup, and the behavior she's seeing. 

I am disturbed to hear some people excusing fearful behavior, even insinuating that OP is to blame for the puppy's temperament... as though she's done something to traumatize the puppy.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I agree the other thread would be nice to see. I read the first few pages of it and I didn't see any bashing, but it was full of information that this one is lacking. Doesn't seem right.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lots of good advice here , Jessica of Jprice, Robin, Freestep --- lots of words , but none from the OP?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I'm sure OP is reading, and doesn't want to write anything in fear that anything he says will be used against him. 

If this puppy is as fearful as I can assume from this thread, I would return the puppy. If the breeder works with me I would only be reassured that I made the right choice of a breeder, and recommend the breeder to all my friends. If the breeder doesn't work with me I would handle the situation myself, train, socialize, etc, basically foster the pup until I find her a different home. The breeder doesn't matter from this point and is never mentioned again, not even in the signature here. 

But again, not having all the information, I am not sure if the puppy is extremely fearful, and I am not sure if the puppy recovers, and how fast. 'Weak nerves' is way too broad term, and overused now as well.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)




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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> I'm sure OP is reading, and doesn't want to write anything in fear that anything he says will be used against him.


Go read his other thread about DM. This guy is a classic example of having a little bit of information and thinking he is an expert. This is a puppy for heavens sake. Fear of the unknown is NORMAL.

I've got a pound puppy who is terrified of collars and cages... Do I think he is weak willed. No I think he is a terrific little guy who needs to have some good experiences rather than bad ones. 

If his puppy is "weak willed" I suspect it is because he is making him that way!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> I'm sure OP is reading, and doesn't want to write anything in fear that anything he says will be used against him.
> 
> If this puppy is as fearful as I can assume from this thread, I would return the puppy. If the breeder works with me I would only be reassured that I made the right choice of a breeder, and recommend the breeder to all my friends. If the breeder doesn't work with me I would handle the situation myself, train, socialize, etc, basically foster the pup until I find her a different home. The breeder doesn't matter from this point and is never mentioned again, not even in the signature here.
> 
> But again, not having all the information, I am not sure if the puppy is extremely fearful, and I am not sure if the puppy recovers, and how fast. 'Weak nerves' is way too broad term, and overused now as well.


We've seen so many threads of dogs who come from breeders the board is not familiar with, and breeder actions, as well as the pup's faults can be talked about. I don't understand why this poor poster has to feel so harassed in posting for the same advice with a known breeder. I would feel defensive too and stop providing additional information if my original post that contained more information was deleted. It seemed that judgements were already made and my information wasn't valued. 

That said, I agree with the general notion that puppies are not perfect, so the breeder should not be blamed FOR the fault. But as a fellow puppy-owner, I empathize and see the OP's side. You hope and dream for a perfect puppy, plop down some money, and expect at LEAST a healthy, normal puppy. Regardless of what this puppy has, it isn't meeting the buyer's expectations. This disappointment and frustration will definitely get in the way of bonding and training. The OP should return the puppy so that the negative feelings aren't damaging for both them and the puppy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think there's a lot more that's going on here that meets the eye and the OP doesn't seem as interested in working on the solution other than getting his money back for the puppy he now does not want.
That much is pretty plain from the two posts.
It is, as others pointed out, buyer's remorse. The puppy will pay in the end  Hopefully the OP will give the puppy back.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I think there's a lot more that's going on here that meets the eye and the OP doesn't seem as interested in working on the solution other than getting his money back for the puppy he now does not want.
> That much is pretty plain from the two posts.
> It is, as others pointed out, buyer's remorse. The puppy will pay in the end  Hopefully the OP will give the puppy back.


I think the OP was working with a trainer and the puppy. The OP talked about it in the other post.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Fear of the unknown is normal??????? I highly disagree with that, though there are people breeding German Shepherds like that these days. But upon meeting new people a puppy should not be running away....leastways the pups I see all the time. Normal for GS pups should be coming up to people with tail wagging, and MAYBE approaching a little cautiously.....but fearfully?????? Nope!!!


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Normal for GS pups should be coming up to people with tail wagging, and MAYBE approaching a little cautiously.....but fearfully?????? Nope!!!


But that is just it. Without the OP giving examples, we don't KNOW that it is true fear or just caution? Maybe he is expecting the running up, tail wagging and getting the approaching cautiously...and saying it is fear. So it is hard to give advice witout more information about the specific incidents.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

From what I understand, the OP is quite probably interpreting fear where there is none.

And the way you treat "new things" can make a difference in a puppy's reaction to them.

And yes, the OPs description in this thread makes it quite difficult to discern what is actually going on.

Perhaps a video of the puppy doing what the OP interprets as weak nerves would help.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Fear of the unknown is normal??????? I highly disagree with that, though there are people breeding German Shepherds like that these days. But upon meeting new people a puppy should not be running away....leastways the pups I see all the time. Normal for GS pups should be coming up to people with tail wagging, and MAYBE approaching a little cautiously.....but fearfully?????? Nope!!!


Ok big guy how about we rip you away from everything you've ever known. Your family, your friends, your home and throw you into a new enviornment and throw a lot of new people at you who don't even speak the same language and see how you react. Give a puppy a break its a baby not a robot.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Well Miss Lady, what do you think happens EVERY time an Eight week old puppy comes here on a 10 hour flight from Germany, Czech Republic, etc. it happens all the time.....now tell me who do THEY know, WHAT sounds are they familar with, what family or friends are they greeting when they come out of the crate?????????Is that new environment enough for you????? Happens all the time....Please!!!


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

jprice103 said:


> But that is just it. Without the OP giving examples, we don't KNOW that it is true fear or just caution? Maybe he is expecting the running up, tail wagging and getting the approaching cautiously...and saying it is fear. So it is hard to give advice witout more information about the specific incidents.


I completely agree. Maybe the OP listed the "examples" and what things they've tried in his last thread....but I for one never saw that post so it is impossible to say. Speaking for myself...judging from the OP's posts on his DM thread it seems that he is looking for reasons to "disqualify" this pup.

New owners can sometimes misread pups and dogs in general, heck even experienced owners who are not "experts" can. How many posts do we get from people with new puppies where they are bragging about how "protective" they are....if they can be wrong in those instances....couldn't they also be wrong or misreading, or reading too much into a cautious puppy? 
People can word and twist things to sound anyway they want....not always intentionally. People pick up a lot of "feelings" from certain words and sometimes allow it to bias or influence them...for example if I dropped one of my kids off at your house and said "have fun he is hyper" would you not let that influence you more negatively then if I said "have fun he is so inquisitive and loves to try new things" ?

So in short I don't think anyone is "excusing" a fearful pup...but maybe just concerned that the OP truly doesn't seem to be looking for suggestions as much as they are suddenly finding problems with it that were not there prior.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> From what I understand, the OP is quite probably interpreting fear where there is none.


Um... running away from people and other puppies, hiding under a chair during puppy socialization, gaining just enough confidence to touch another pup's nose, then darting back under the chair when the other pup invites play? What is YOUR interpretation of that?

I am really ticked off that the other thread was deleted, because OP gave a very clear description of the behavior and went into detail regarding what was being done with the pup. Now OP is probably afraid to say anything more since the mods gave a "warning" about "breeder bashing".  

If trying to gain help for a timid puppy is "breeder bashing", why aren't ALL such threads deleted?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Speaking for myself...judging from the OP's posts on his DM thread it seems that he is looking for reasons to "disqualify" this pup.


Exactly. To me, this makes whatever else the OP may say somewhat suspect, and I'd need to see the puppy "in action" to draw any sort of rational conclusion. 
It's so strange to read back and see the OPs elation with the puppy (even says "her attitude is great", or whatever) and then mere weeks later, be so totally disenchanted with her.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Ok big guy how about we rip you away from everything you've ever known. Your family, your friends, your home and throw you into a new enviornment and throw a lot of new people at you who don't even speak the same language and see how you react. Give a puppy a break its a baby not a robot.


I don't think anyone knows enough to really judge this situation and yes I saw the other thread.

Cliff doesn't need anyone to stand up for him but when talking about GSDs in general I think it pays to listen to him.
I don't know the exact number of years but I think around forty or so of breeding, raising, and training these dogs. Military dogs, Police k9 etc... On top of that he has a great deal of wisdom on bloodlines and genetics.
He is an asset.
Listening to people who are new to the GS going back and forth giving each other advice gets real old. (I'm not referring to this thread in particular but in general)
I really wish more of the people on here who have a lot of experience would chime in sometimes.
Carmen is another person who is willing to risk trying to impart really educational info. about the GSD and dogs in general.
the breeder of my dog Jack is another who knows more about the breed than most but she probably wants to barf when she reads this stuff.
I apologize for going off topic.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shepherdmom said:


> Ok big guy how about we rip you away from everything you've ever known. Your family, your friends, your home and throw you into a new enviornment and throw a lot of new people at you who don't even speak the same language and see how you react. Give a puppy a break its a baby not a robot.


So every puppy should be expected to act fearful because they're ripped from their family and put in a new environment at 8 weeks? What about the thousands and thousands of puppies who do perfectly fine? Are they just an exception to the rule?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

You know, some people interpret things differently than others, I'm not saying in relation to this particular thread, but one's idea of a scaredy cat puppy may not be anothers?


Honestly, I've never had a puppy who was a total chicken pooper, wary when puppies maybe, check out something new, ok no big deal move on, those are the types of puppies I've had .

Puppies that are ripped from their families fearful? Some things are normal, but I guess never having had one that was fearful because of that, well I just haven't had one..

I guess I would just 'have to see' the whole picture before I would comment

Andy you crack me up, I can just picture your breeder "barfing" when she read this stuff LOL...


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

> It's so strange to read back and see the OPs elation with the puppy (even says "her attitude is great", or whatever) and then mere weeks later, be so totally disenchanted with her.


I can relate to this statement, and I have to say that I don't really find it that strange, especially when the puppy isn't as the OP had hoped for. 

My puppy came home and was really curious about the world, I was elated to have her home, and so very much in love with her. Somewhere around the 11-12 week mark, she became more reserved and also people/dog reactive, not at all what I was expecting. I find myself some days very embarrassed and sad about her reactivity as I really wasn't expected to have to deal with this, especially for my first dog. There really are some days when I can't handle it and hubby has to take charge, because it's a little much for me.

At this point, I want to work through her issues and really can't imagine my world without her in it now, but I can understand how such a large change can be really disheartening.


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## Hundguy (Apr 30, 2003)

I know the OP has someone pulling his strings and fueling the fire a bit. I'm OK with that, because that is what bottom feeders do! I know what she is so I accept that is how she acts, but this whole thing is disrespectful! 
How does everyone think it is my responsibility to do the right thing when he acts like this? Are we both not supposed to act civilized? 

FYI, I stopped replying to the OP on facebook after he posted the video of the pup being unsure of the leash and the stairs or something like that! Ask him to post that here, for all of you wanting to blame the breeder for everything!

Here is her evaluation (she is black collar girl at the end).




=

Here is the link to the group puppy day this weekend. They all did great, wish JPrice and Brian could have both made it but they live way too far away to come.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/178954-f-litter-vom-johnson-haus-reunion.html


Why would you buy a puppy like that? You were a "NEW" person to her when you came here right? Are you trying to say "my lies fooled your eyes"? How about your vet visit, you said she did awesome and the vet loved her and spoke highly of her? that was a new place with a new person doing a full exam? All the post's on facebook & email "that we printed out before you deleted us" that talked about how excellent her nerves were at your NEW home, NEW adult dog, NEW cat, new everything? Why is she the only one? 7 out of the 8 pups are doing good and everyone is happy except you and she did so good with the evaluations and at the beginning?

I offered to replace her, you did not accept my offer! Why should my original offer stand now that you are acting this way? If you are wanting to contact me in regards to business between US than you should contact me!

The only apology I offer is to Fiona, for failing you we are truly sorry baby.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

*Lisa* said:


> I can relate to this statement, and I have to say that I don't really find it that strange, especially when the puppy isn't as the OP had hoped for.
> 
> My puppy came home and was really curious about the world, I was elated to have her home, and so very much in love with her. Somewhere around the 11-12 week mark, she became more reserved and also people/dog reactive, not at all what I was expecting. I find myself some days very embarrassed and sad about her reactivity as I really wasn't expected to have to deal with this, especially for my first dog. There really are some days when I can't handle it and hubby has to take charge, because it's a little much for me.
> 
> At this point, I want to work through her issues and really can't imagine my world without her in it now, but I can understand how such a large change can be really disheartening.


My feelings exactly.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Interesting discussion about expectations of what a small GSD puppy should act like.

I sometimes get a lot of flak from other GSD owners in our group here. 

I happen to think (based on 40 yr of owning multiple GSD's) that puppies should be very outgoing and friendly and willing to go happilly running up to strangers. (remember we are talking about little puppies here). Many of my fellow owners seem to disagree and see nothing wrong with a puppy hesitsting and not wanting to meet new people or even other friendly dogs.

Some of them even would not let their puppies take treats from strangers we would meet on a walk!

Nice to hear this discussion and opinions of knowledgable GSD people.

Older dogs can certainly be "Aloof" but not so much little puppies. I think if you walk into a yard full of little GSD puppies that one should be "overrun by a puppy herd!". 

Esp. if one should sit down on the ground with them!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Lisa* said:


> I can relate to this statement, and I have to say that I don't really find it that strange, especially when the puppy isn't as the OP had hoped for.
> 
> My puppy came home and was really curious about the world, I was elated to have her home, and so very much in love with her. Somewhere around the 11-12 week mark, she became more reserved and also people/dog reactive, not at all what I was expecting. I find myself some days very embarrassed and sad about her reactivity as I really wasn't expected to have to deal with this, especially for my first dog. *There really are some days when I can't handle it and hubby has to take charge, because it's a little much for me.*
> 
> At this point, I want to work through her issues and really can't imagine my world without her in it now, but I can understand how such a large change can be really disheartening.


I bolded this because it may be the reason your pup shows reactivity! Are you certain you are giving her leadership and direction? GSD's aren't for everyone and can be challenging compared to other breeds. If you choose to have a GSD you need to be a strong leader and work with your dog on a daily basis, even if it feels 'too much'.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks Dennis I hope this can be resolved..I see a happy confident brave wild child, along with the rest of them..And all cute as can be


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Somewhere around the 11-12 week mark, she became more reserved and also people/dog reactive, not at all what I was expecting.


But is it so difficult to work with the dog, even if she was not what you were expecting?
What about those of us who meet the dog where it is, and work from there? 
Why become disappointed?? Part of the equation is the owner/trainer of the dog.

As others have said (now I need to) they are not widgets or robots, they are living breathing and changing beings. The other they get, the more reserved/aloof they should become, because that's what a GSD _is._

I never have understood people (in general) who need to take the dog out and about, or they don't feel complete. I dearly would love to bring our senior, Holly (hospice foster) with us but she hates it, so I leave her home. She has shown herself to be uncomfortable with going out and I'm fine with that. My life isn't over because I can't bring her along with us.


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## Hundguy (Apr 30, 2003)

She was Red Collar girl not Black unsure why I wrote that!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think we all want the perfect dog, and when it doesn't happen, well it can be frustrating to say the least. 

I've gotten a dog or two, I wasn't that happy with, was it the dogs fault? No, was it the breeders fault? No, I worked with what I had , loved them for what they were, did the best I could by them and kept moving


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> thanks Dennis I hope this can be resolved..I see a happy confident brave wild child, along with the rest of them..And all cute as can be


I saw that too. Certainly not a genetic nerve bag.
Which tells me one of two things happened. Either something happened to the puppy to "make" her fearful (in just 3 weeks!), or the OP is misinterpreting her behavior. 
I don't think (before someone jumps on me for that) a genetically sound dog could be made fearful but mishandling her could give the impression she is fearful.
If you take a pup and drag her around places and put her in impossible situations then it could be she's backing off to regroup and that might be misinterpreted as fear.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> But is it so difficult to work with the dog, even if she was not what you were expecting?
> What about those of us who meet the dog where it is, and work from there?
> Why become disappointed?? Part of the equation is the owner/trainer of the dog.
> 
> I never have understood people (in general) who need to take the dog out and about, or they don't feel complete. I dearly would love to bring our senior, Holly (hospice foster) with us but she hates it, so I leave her home. She has shown herself to be uncomfortable with going out and I'm fine with that. My life isn't over because I can't bring her along with us.


This isn't really part of the original discussion, but I feel strongly for what Lisa is saying. I guess it's the first time dog-owner thing. It's HUMAN and NATURAL to have expectations of the animals, people, and events in your life. Lisa may not even be necessarily dissapointed at her puppy, just dissapointed at the turn of events. Why is that unacceptable?

We make adjustments and make plans that best suit our dog, but doesn't mean we can't have feelings in the process.

-----

Hoping the OP and the breeder has a good resolution to this.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> How does everyone think it is my responsibility to do the right thing when he acts like this? Are we both not supposed to act civilized?


I don't know where the right or wrong in this situation rests, but you're responsibility to do the right thing isn't negated by a disagreement with your customer. I understand that you're hurt & angry. Quite possibly the OP is as well. 

As stated here, even very good breeders occasionally produce less than ideal pups. I agree with Cliff that the measure of a breeder is in how frequently this occurs. Additionally, IMO, good breeders rigorously assess what they produce & acknowledge the problems that occur. They also seek to resolve problems with their pups & the owners.

Mr Johnson, I'm sorry that things b/w you & the buyer have deteriorated to the point where you are calling him/her a 'bottom feeder'. I understand that you're upset but that's unprofessional. Hopefully it's not representative of your customer service.

I didn't read the other thread. I haven't watched any videos. I don't know the ins & outs rights & wrongs here but I hope that communications b/w buyer & breeder improve considerably. Additionally, I hope both parties will work towards resolving this to everyone's satisfaction b/c Fiona deserves the best possible resolution, whatever that might be.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Codmaster....my sentiments exactly.
@ Hundguy....I am glad that you came on board and gave balance to the picture. I personally didn't read anything bashing the breeder, but I will say again; that a shy or fearful dog/puppy can come from any breeding or breeder. Not saying that this puppy is or is not, but the make up of the breed,(especially with the thurigian influence), makes it a possibility. I think everyone knows that your breding program is excellent and I personally love the genetics of your dogs. But once a puppy leaves a breeder, changes can take place both environmentally and gentically. I have had pups leave me stronger than what they eventually became....it happens for whatever reasons. This is the difficult part of breeding as you well know.....so many things can happen after they leave.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Looks like a pretty confident pup to me in that video. Could that puppy in the video with the red collar gone from being like that to a genetic nerve bag in 3 weeks? Is that even possible?


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I bolded this because it may be the reason your pup shows reactivity! Are you certain you are giving her leadership and direction? GSD's aren't for everyone and can be challenging compared to other breeds. If you choose to have a GSD you need to be a strong leader and work with your dog on a daily basis, even if it feels 'too much'.


 I don't doubt that there are some days, my feelings are the cause of her reactivity, and on those days I'm aware of it and ask Hubby to take over. Most days, I let things go and am full of confidence, and she still reacts. She is also reactive with him, and he is really confident with her. One day it may be a dog a football field away, others its to the dog across the street. It's very unpredictable so we don't anticipate things happening, we just go with the flow. 



> But is it so difficult to work with the dog, even if she was not what you were expecting?
> What about those of us who meet the dog where it is, and work from there?
> Why become disappointed?? Part of the equation is the owner/trainer of the dog.


I'm not saying I disagree with you. I completely agree with accepting/understanding the dog for who she is and working with it. We are in our case and I wouldn't have it any other way, it is just coming to terms with the fact that your happy, joyous puppy isn't everything you had expected it to be.

In our case, we're enrolled in classes and doing everything we can, but as "new" dog owners, we're definitely not perfect and able to resolve the situation completely, and some days it can be overwhelming.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I've gotten a dog or two, I wasn't that happy with, was it the dogs fault? No, was it the breeders fault? No, I worked with what I had , loved them for what they were, did the best I could by them and kept moving


As Jakoda stated, you can be disappointed but you move on.
To have ongoing depression over the situation is not normal. It is not for me to say what's acceptable or not, and I never said anything of the sort.
As a rescuer I am acutely aware of preformed expectations. 
However, the best homes we adopt to often "fall in love" with a pic and that dog _is_ what they make of it.

For instance - we had a couple who wanted to join the "dog scene" in Seattle (we didn't find this out until much later). The dog they adopted was leash reactive, but we didn't realize that at the time because we usually do not leash walk our own dogs or fosters, except for if we are going somewhere. The dogs all get exercise playing on our property.

This particular dog played fine with all the other dogs! So imagine our dismay when they wrote and proclaimed she was "extremely dog aggressive"!
She never made contact with other dogs but barked like a maniac, apparently, when she'd see them.
So the adoption failed. They had expectations this dog could not meet.
For me - I would have accepted the dog like it was, got her into training, or whatever, but to them, she was a fur accessory they could meander down to the Market with and hob-nob with all the other dog people.

I guess I'm just different that way. My dogs come to me, and I learn them and love them how they are and work with their shortcomings. To me it's like, "okay, so you're not dog park material, but what else can we do", type thing??


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I'm sorry that things b/w you & the buyer have deteriorated to the point where you are calling him/her a 'bottom feeder'.


You need to re-read the post. Hundguy said someone else is a bottom-feeder, not the purchaser.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

this is a really hard situation to watch happen. You don't know who to believe but I know I have my own gut feeling that creeps into things that I can't really silence. A puppy that has weak nerves has weak nerves... I don't think it comes out being super happy and confident and then changes to a "nerve bag" I do think puppies go through fear periods and if I'm not mistaken this pup is pretty much at that age. It is really hard to go back and read the February threads about how happy they are with their puppy and how great the pup is and then see thread after thread started about how unhappy they are and everything wrong with the puppy (especially since 2 were started within like 3 minutes of each other) I know people can use more extreme terms and while they may "technically" mean the same thing they install a completely different visual in a random person's mind and have seen numerous times people saying things like the dog is "aggressive" when it is an 8 week old pup who's chomping on someone's hand being a normal puppy and playing. I'm not an expert and do not claim to be one but there are a few things I have learned from dealing with Jinx. I also know how hard it is as an owner to get an "expensive" pup from a breeder and have unrealistic expectations that a puppy simply can't live up to and have to remind myself it's a puppy and not a blanket or something being "made" 

Jinx was shipped on an all day flight to me got here in the dark with lots of other dogs barking in carriers around her, handled by strange people, picked up by a complete stranger (my husband) came to a strange place (my job) and ran enthusiastically through the parking lot to me even though she never met me before. She happily trotted through the car dealership on slick floor, went through the mechanics area and the car bay in the dark with the loud tools working on cars without a flinch. Next day she went hiking and climbed rocks and went down steep banks and through dark under ground tunnels without a problem.. fast forward about 2 weeks and she started to get a bit "stand offish" When we took her to a store she let a lady pet her but she wasn't all wiggly like she normally was she just sat there and accepted the pet but was rather unsure of it. Dropping loud items made her startle (but she recovered) and the biggest thing was if I shook out a plastic garbage bag she would duck and run out of the room. Of course it is disheartening because you expect perfect from these amazing dogs but she quickly came about I didn't baby her I just had her come in and confront the item briefly. Big thing is to not avoid OR overwhelm them with issues. Heck today at 16 months we went outside and there is a HUGE construction sign across the street so when we went out front she saw it and hackles went up and she let out a few warning barks. I said nothing I confidently walked across the street with her so she could see the item up close and sniff it. Once we got to it she was fine and now any time we go out there she completely ignores it. At about 4 months old we went to the dark park and it did not go well there was a very rude over bearing dog there and he scared her. She hid behind me and while I didn't want her hiding I simply stepped forward backed the other dog off and then stepped aside and didn't let her hide. The dog came back and before he got to her I stepped in front of her and backed the dog off then took her out of the park. The OP's pup is young some uncertainty is going to happen they need to see that you will protect them which allows them to gain confidence from you. I know by stepping up in situations to make sure I protected her so she didn't feel the need to that now if there is something she is unsure of she will look at me for my reaction and if I'm fine she will confidently approach whatever the situation is. I also know around 4-5ish months she hit another mini fear period which was easily handled by doing the same thing. Not overwhelming her but also not letting her hide from something. 

I really think other people were pretty dead on with saying sometimes the chemistry isn't right between dog and owner and it can cause issues. Also sometimes past issues (and over reading) cause us to look for issues and we look so hard that we set our pups up for failure.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> As Jakoda stated, you can be disappointed but you move on.
> To have ongoing depression over the situation is not normal. It is not for me to say what's acceptable or not, and I never said anything of the sort.
> As a rescuer I am acutely aware of preformed expectations.
> However, the best homes we adopt to often "fall in love" with a pic and that dog _is_ what they make of it.
> ...


I might get flamed for this, but...

I fell in love with my dog, and am willing to work on OUR shortcomings together. 

But I understand the couple's perspective. When there are SO many unproblematic dogs that they could have, it is disheartening to find your dog the only one barking, lunging and out of control. I don't see anything wrong with wanting a dog that fits into their lifestyle how they want.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This has gotten way off topic. It is a personal situation between the OP and the breeder and needs to stay off the board. 

I will leave the thread, but it is being locked. Please do not start this topic again.

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa


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