# Dog-dog aggression out of the blue. Please help!



## calandhen (May 10, 2012)

Well, I never ever in my life imagined having to write this thread about this dog. My 3 year old shepherd Henrietta is just the greatest. I've had her since she was a puppy, and she has always been amazing with other dogs. She grew up with a chihuahua and a hound dog, both of which are gone (one moved with a family member and the other passed away). She grew up playing off leash with several of the neighbors dogs, and we have rescued several starving strays over the years. She always played amazingly with all of them. She has even been to a couple of dog parks in the past and did really well, always does well in PetSmart, has even been through a training class there. I never in my life had to worry about dog aggression with her, or people aggression. Everyone comments on how well behaved she is and how great she listens. I adopted another shepherd, a pretty wired and unsocialized puppy, in March, and Henrietta has definitely gone through some behavioral changes since then. But she gets along well overall with my new girl, Calli. They have their little spats, but mostly they are fine. For the first 6 weeks she was absolutely in love with her in fact and barely payed any attention to me. It's why I kept Calli. Then she started getting her nose a bit out of joint as Calli grew and became the dominant one.

This week my sister came to visit and brought with her her golden retriever, Duke. Duke is not good with other dogs and I was nervous about her bringing him, mostly because Calli is a lot for the other dogs to put up with. I was at the store when they got here, and they didn't introduce the dogs very well it seems. A dog fight immediately ensued---between Henrietta and Duke. Calli stayed out of it. No one was hurt, no blood or anything, and when I got home I introduced them slowly and they seemed to be fine. We went on walks all together and hung out outside in the yard. They all played together well sometimes, even. But in the house there was definitely tension between Duke and Henrietta. Tonight, as my family was getting ready to leave, someone put dog food down for Duke, and Henrietta and Duke got into it. I had to literally pry her jaws off of his neck, while he was screaming. But she didn't draw any blood, and he wasn't hurt at all, and she actually had bite marks on her face. Nothing bad or deep, but I am wondering if he bit her first and she reacted to it? I just don't understand this. I am really concerned. I don't even know how to address the problem, and I feel like I'm a failure as a trainer, after all the work and socialization I have put in with her. They are gone now, but I'm worried this is going to escalate and come out against Calli as well. I just don't understand this dramatic 360. I am pretty sure it has something to do with Calli coming in and taking over as the dominant of the two. I think Henrietta is fed up with her antics, and I do separate them while I'm gone and keep it under control when I'm here. I just don't know what more to do. I am training them together, etc. It's just so discouraging, and of course everyone is blaming the big bad German Shepherd. "Even the great ones can snap." Sigh.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would train them separately and together. Maybe the older one just needs more one on one time. As far as the dog fight...it probably was all wrong from the beginning since they weren't introduced correctly and one dog came in not liking other dogs. I have a golden and a GSD and they are inseparable. I would be heartbroken if they decided not to like each other. I wish you lots of luck and hope everything turns out okay. I'm sure lots of others will chime in with better advice


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Wow. There's so much wrong going on I can't touch on it all.
I'd have slapped up some gates, used crates and kept the dogs apart. "Duke is not good with other dogs". 
Don't feed one dog and not another, and especially in the presence of other dogs.

Those are just the top two...


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You have two bitches in the same house and the tensions are building between them. Duke came in and that's who pushed Henrietta over the edge. I don't think for a second that the fight was started by Duke. Your two girls are most likely going to have a down and dirty fight in the near future so I wouldn't let them be together unsupervised. When they are loose together, be very sure there's as little as possible for them to fight over. No food, no toys, no excitement.

This has nothing to do with you being a good or bad trainer: this is all about having two bitches in the same home. All the socialization in the world wouldn't have made a difference here.

It's way better to train your dogs separately. Partly because it's usually ineffective, but more so one dog doesn't see the other getting corrected which can set them off and so the other dog also doesn't see you praising and playing with the other which can again set one off.


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## calandhen (May 10, 2012)

Thank you all for your responses!

@Elaine, do you think the tension can be managed or minimized? Do you think it's really impossible for two bitches to get along? Lately they have been doing really well together, actually. A lot of the tension had started to fade. I do think Duke put her over the edge. I just didn't see it coming. I am not sure whether I need to think about re-homing Calli. I have become extremely attached to her. I really, really don't want to do that.

@msvette2u, yes I do agree that the food should not have been put down when all the dogs were loose. Someone else did so when I wasn't aware. The dogs were separated when not supervised, and they generally did well together. When the tension seemed to rise, I would remove the stressor or separate them, but as everyone was moving bags out to the car, I just didn't notice someone had put food down.

As for training, I do train separately and together. I have not noticed a problem training them together. It seemed to help them be more positive and develop some impulse control around distractions like bones and toys.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would just watch them and supervise closely. I have two females and a male. Although I haven't had any problems, I still watch very carefully. My intentions would be to stop it before it starts, but sometimes that is easier said then done.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I think it is likely that Duke started the fight. He's not good with other dogs (that's what the OP said) and then food was put down. The GSD had bite marks on her face, yet had hold of the Golden and wasn't letting go. The senario that seems to make the most sense is.. food was put down. The Golden guarded resources. The Golden got the GSD, so the GSD got hold of the Golden and didn't let go. Of course the GSD is going to be blamed! My male GSD got bit in the face by a Golden.. which really surprised me. I wouldn't be shocked if she doesn't hold a grudge against this dog. I'd advise NOT letting this dog out around your GSD again. 

The issue with the two females... are they both spayed? If Callie doesn't learn to respect the other GSD, you're going to have some big time work to do with your trainer. Two females don't *always* equal trouble. We had 2 for years that did just fine. The older one treated my GSD like she was her puppy. (Although she'd never had pups) 

The "Even the good ones snap" bothers me. It's not true. The *really* good ones don't. My response would've been "Yes, good Goldens".  Now you know to have a plan of action for anyone entering your home. Come up with a list of "do not" things and go over it with every single person. If a person can't follow the rules, they don't come in. I don't understand bringing a dog that's "not good with other dogs" to someone's house that has dogs. You can't fault your dog for defending herself.


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## calandhen (May 10, 2012)

Yes, they are both spayed. They have never had a real fight per say, but I do think Henrietta feels pushed around. 

I think I did wait too long to start working with Calli on play manners, because I figured Henrietta would start setting them. Many people I talked to told me about the "puppy pass" adult dogs give to very young puppies when playing, and told me Henrietta would start setting boundaries when Calli got older and bigger. It never happened and Henrietta got pushed around more and more, so I finally stepped in about 6-8 weeks ago, when Henrietta's attitude toward Calli changed from adoration to avoidance. Things have improved consistently since then, but in retrospect I really should have stepped in sooner. 

I do think Duke probably was resource guarding, growled, and Henrietta wasn't taking any of it and growled in return, escalation, etc. Seems like Henrietta was defending herself, and I definitely do think she will be holding a grudge. She could have done some real damage had she wanted to, but she didn't even draw blood, whereas the marks on her face did slightly break the skin. I don't understand why my sister brought Duke either, but she is going through a lot of personal problems right now and brought the dog on a 1000 mile road trip to come to my graduation, so I didn't feel comfortable asking her to get a hotel...Didn't think this would be such a problem. Man, hindsight is 20/20.

Funnily enough, I have plans to be out of town Tuesday through Saturday, and my trainer offered to look after my girls for me. I will talk with her about this tomorrow, but she has taken on a lot of aggressive fosters and I have a feeling she won't mind spending a little extra time working with Henrietta around her dogs. I'll have to give her a big tip.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> She could have done some real damage had she wanted to, but she didn't even draw blood,


This does not mean anything. It means the Golden has thick fur or whatever, but pain and bruising is a big factor in dog bites. You'd have to shave to see if there were injuries anyway and I doubt anyone did that.
NEVER discount a dog bite because no blood was drawn. Try being bitten yourself, through pants or a sleeve, and not having blood draw but the pain of the crushing injury of their teeth is what hurts.
Our vet explained that to me after I was bitten fairly severely on the arm. No blood was drawn. But the bruise was horrendous.

I'm certain the Golden got his licks in. Who started it really does not matter at all.

As Elaine said - you'll need to be on high alert at ALL times, watch body language and intervene before the fight occurs, because if it does occur, you'll be re-homing one dog and hopefully nobody will get killed in the process.

I like to catch my dogs with a plan in their head - you can _watch_ them thinking - and "scold" them before they get started - "Don't even THINK about it...!" 

They always look at me like, "WOW she can read minds!!" It helps keep things in check here, and we have 9 full-time dogs in our pack. 4 are girls but only one Diva, thank God, the house is not big enough for more than one.



> I didn't feel comfortable asking her to get a hotel...Didn't think this would be such a problem.


Gates and crates :thumbup:


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## calandhen (May 10, 2012)

Henrietta did extremely well with my trainer while I was gone. She kept her isolated from the other dogs for the first two days, and then started letting her out with them slowly. Henrietta was her usual self and had absolutely no problem with any of my trainer's 5 dogs or with Calli and was with them all day for the last 3 days of my trip. I now strongly suspect hypothyroidism. Her behavior, even if she didn't like Duke and was stressed, is just completely out of line with her past and her present behavior. Now that time has passed and I've been able to think about her interactions with Duke more carefully and less clouded by emotion, her behavior was very inconsistent. She seemed to like him most of the time and would seem to have no memory of tense moments that occurred even a few minutes before. Her body language with him most of the time was relaxed and happy. It was one of the reasons I didn't take the tension as seriously as I should have. That and the fact that Henrietta's past behavior and personality are just so inconsistent with this behavior. If it had been Calli, I would have taken the issue much more seriously as she was less socialized and was extremely reactive when I first got her, though she's overcome the vast majority of that. It definitely taught me to pay attention to the dog I have now, rather than the dog I'm used to having.

I'm making an appointment with my vet to get the blood work done. Her appetite has diminished in the past several months and she has been getting very dry itchy skin for the past 6 weeks or so, so hypothyroidism does seem to fit. My trainer agreed that this was a strong possibility, with the other one being that she simply did not like Duke, for whatever reason. She observed Henrietta's behavior with Calli and thought that, while the addition of a new dog might have stressed Henrietta somewhat, their relationship is fairly good. Calli does need to learn to respect other dogs' space more, but my trainer felt that this is something we can teach. I am adding several exercises to their training program as aggression preventatives and stress reducers, as well. Got Brenda Aloff's book and absolutely love it, and I will be definitely using it a lot in the future. I am looking forward to finding out if hypothyroidism is an issue here, but I am concerned as I've heard it's difficult to diagnose. I hope that I can get a definitive answer, one way or another!


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