# Protein and Fat levels in Kibbled food



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

*Ok I hope this does not turn into a discussion on this food or that food and would hope to keep brand names out of it - as well as pushing raw(please?) but since many of us are looking for alternatives these days*. 

For years the standard was about 26% protein and about 12% fat then we got sold on 42% protein and 20% fat and feeding our dogs like sled dogs or performance dogs when, in reality 1-2 hours a day of hard excercise is still not high level endurance. Once the dog gets more protein than their body needs, it simply becomes an expensive source of fuel. Extra fat becomes more fat to possibly go rancid in the bag. One the protein numbers go up, Calcium and ash go up as well unless you really go for the quality of getting foods with MEAT not just meaty bones.

*I am not going to argue against QUALITY ingredients but wonder how much protein and fat are truly optimal or acceptable*? How bad is getting energy from grains or potatoes [an issue with grains and legumes being that they can falsely elevate protein numbers but represent incomplete amino acid profile relative to meat-one exception being quinoa or foods with legumes AND grains]

I am feeding a good quality 26% food right now to the puppy and to move to a quality grain free at 38% is going to almost double my feeding cost (when I do the math based on feeding the same number of calories of each). I am not sure I buy a pristine image of "free range" chicken which is the basis for the more expensive food. The chickens are still grain fed like any other chicken and free range does not necessarily mean the image it all creates in our head....any way you cut it dog food IS an industry. (but so is the people food I would buy unless it was local from trusted farmers where I can go see the birds)--

My own dog is excercising pretty good for about 90 minutes a day but the rest is pretty easy. Now when we search, yes, weekend warriors so might be 4 hours or so..and I do think maybe supplements like K9 Go Doggy which are about more than just electrolytes make sense.

A working police dog? How much daily do they get. Yes they are in a patrol car but how much on the street time do they really have a day? 

Schuzhund or Agility dogs? 

If most of our dogs are getting more action not on a daily basis but prolonged weekend trainings which I bet is pretty common....what strategies for those times compared to the rest of the week?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think this is a good question. 

Right now I am doing the Frankenfood thing again. I have combined Fromm Duck with Acana...Orange bag - I hate the names they have for things. Wild Prairie. 

? I don't know. No good answer from me!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

To me, yes a lot of add hype there. "Wild praire" does NOT evoke an image of chickens possibly crammed into cages set on the ground and moved around by tractors which meets the requirement of free range. ..... I would love to see a dog food that was Venison, possibly bison and rabbit and a little quail some eggs, a little fish ---

I do realize that it is more "natural" for dogs NOT to eat grain or potatoes but then there is the question of appropriate use of resources. So there was a wolf study. Wild wolves were around 1-6 year max, while the captive population was 2-14 years. So who is to say our "urban" lifestyle and feeding practices shorten a dogs natural life (unfortunately the paper did NOT discuss what the dogs were fed)


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Good question. 

Kopper looked poor on 26/12 food, no matter how much I fed. He looked bony and his coat was dull. I switched him to 26/18 and he looked better; and on a 30/20 he looks better still. Glossy coat, ribs barely visible, clear eyes, etc. So that's what I feed him.

Rocky, on the other hand, spends all day on the couch with the exception of a walk and a bit of trotting around while his brother plays ball. Rocky eats a 24/12 I believe. 

It's all about feeding to activity level _and _condition.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

BUMP

So many are making their "switch" decisions and I am curious how the protein levels were selected - what rationale are folks using?


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

It really is all about the quality of dog food you feed. Protein from meat is good protein, protein from other sources is not. Low fat #'s are always nice, but it means less meat, then again the quality issue comes back into play. Just like the hamburger you buy, fat adds flavor, but isn't as good for you.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

We feed a 33/17 to all of our dogs that eat kibble and raw to the adults 
So not sure the exact fat % of it.

We eye ball the dogs and add fat when they look a little thin and drop a little when they look too plump. It varies depending on the time of year because of weather and exercise/training levels.

I raise my puppies on this food and they do very well with that, and grow into fantastic looking adults. Great coats, amazing skin,which I attribute to the appropriate omega 3 & 6 fatty acids.
Their muscle tone, teeth, breath, stool and overall body maintenance are fantastic. 

I couldn't be happier with what it does for my dogs.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> It really is all about the quality of dog food you feed. Protein from meat is good protein, protein from other sources is not. Low fat #'s are always nice, but it means less meat, then again the quality issue comes back into play. Just like the hamburger you buy, fat adds flavor, but isn't as good for you.
> 
> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth


 
AHA...now that dogfood project page really does not answer the question. No, it is pretty clear high PROTEIN in a dog food is not harmful (particularly quality protein) but many of the cheaper hi-pro foods get there by using a lot of high calcium and ash dog foods. Hmmmmm. 


What do you mean fat is not good for you (if you are a dog?) Dogs don't get artheriosclerosis and can burn it efficiently. I have read in some articles about 20% fat is optimal for working bird dogs.......here is an interesting article.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/124/12_Suppl/2745S.full.pdf


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I follow this basic guideline, allowing a few % points deviation in either direction based upon kibble composition:

Puppy = 28% protein 17% fat
Adult dog = 20% protein 12% fat
Performance/working dog = 30% protein 20% fat
Racing sled dog = 35% protein 50% fat

My experience with Abby, highly active working labrador retriever, is that if I get fat below 20% she starts losing condition quickly. Can't keep weight and coat starts to look like straw. Most of the active hunters I know push up fat before they push up protein.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know -- those values ring true me. Dunno about sled but 30/20 sounds very good for a working dog. 

I get frustrated by dog food review sites big time because people are making decisions based on the opinions of one person who can put together a sleek web page, reading a label and they don't take into account the Quality System of the company, the quality of the source materials, and the experiences of people with a given food.

One of the fundamental chants is "the more meat the better" but it does not take into account the negatives of low quality meat meals (not that all meat meals are low quality but there appear to be plenty) and certainly not ash and apparently not calcium and phosphorus. [if the bag ls labeled all life stages and the calcium is at the AAFCO limit, that is good enough for them]

I did the numbers and I am not sure why a an adult 70lb dog would actually need more than 3 times the grams of protein that I am getting as an adult human at more than twice the weight. [For example 1500 calories worth of one highly acclaimed food gives 150 grams of quality meat protein].........I do worry about the social responsibility in this as well. The dogs should be fed properly, I will not argue that but we are a country of excesses.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> AHA...now that dogfood project page really does not answer the question. No, it is pretty clear high PROTEIN in a dog food is not harmful (particularly quality protein) but many of the cheaper hi-pro foods get there by using a lot of high calcium and ash dog foods. Hmmmmm.
> 
> 
> What do you mean fat is not good for you (if you are a dog?) Dogs don't get artheriosclerosis and can burn it efficiently. I have read in some articles about 20% fat is optimal for working bird dogs.......here is an interesting article.
> ...


In the 1st paragraph you are correct, she gives you enough information to make and come to your own conclusion.

In the 2nd paragragh, I would guess that 75% of all dogs do not get enough exercise.

I believe high protein from meat is great, but then again is that dog getting enough exercise? I stay away and will not use products that I feel get protein from other sources. I look at how much meat is in the product vs the protein level. I think couch potato dogs should be on a senior diet and this could be as early as 3-4 years old. Now I am gonna read your link, LOL wonder if Ill change my mind.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One thing that makes the article hard to read other than the horse data mixed in is the protein percentages there they are talking about as %ME not as percent by weight which I believe is what is on the bag. I could be wrong-never paid too much attention to that because I was looking at dog foods relative to each other. I have to revisit that.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Yeah and that it is 18 years old. But I always like to read. I don't know much about horses, not many in the suburbs. I get the feeling horses have short digestive tracts?? I still have the feeling the amount of protein, fat etc should all be based on the level of exercise they get. They are talking about race horses, race dogs and human athlete's, which aren't what I have, LOL, Tony really isn't that fast compared to a Greyhound. But still good reading. I actually have taken Tonys protein down by adding the Acana Chicken and Burbank. Reason being is he is only getting 2 workouts compared to 3. I have medical issues which limit me. I hate gout.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

This is actually my dilemma right now. I had to switch Bunny so her new food is a 34/15 ratio. She's almost 6 years old and gets about 1-1.5 hours off leash exercise so I'm worried the fat percentage may be a bit high. There is a light formula that is 30/10 and slightly fewer calories (396). Not sure if I should put her on the light formula or not. Thoughts?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would think the dog would tell you. My interest in higher fat diets for dogs has more to do with heat tolerance as I have, in fact, noticed better heat tolerance in my dogs when the fat content has been higher......and I wonder if it has to do with the greater efficiency and less waste products invoved in their fat metabolism. 

But I am on the fence as to how much protein they need. Right now senior dog Grim is off of 32% food and on the 26/14 puppy food but he is not working anymore. I know that on a 22/11 formula he lost coat, and muscle.

I am thinking of mixing in about a third of 38/17 food with the 26/14 for the older puppy as it gives a little protein and fat boost and he is at a stage where he will start laying down more muscle. The salmon oil I give is NOT insconsequential - 4 squirts of grizzly is 120 calories of pure fat (with the 38/17 though I would take that down to 3 squirts) I believe his is as tall as he will be at 10 months.

Just trying to figure things out. Trying to keep in mind calcium and phosphorus and ash levels.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I would think the dog would tell you. My interest in higher fat diets for dogs has more to do with heat tolerance as I have, in fact, noticed better heat tolerance in my dogs when the fat content has been higher......and I wonder if it has to do with the greater efficiency and less waste products invoved in their fat metabolism.


That's a very interesting observation. Our weather is starting to get warmer so I'll see if I notice any difference. 

I think I'll just keep Bunny on the regular formula and monitor her weight for a bit. I was thinking of staring the Grizzly Salmon Oil as well so good to know the calorie content. Thanks


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

fuzzybunny said:


> That's a very interesting observation. Our weather is starting to get warmer so I'll see if I notice any difference.
> 
> I think I'll just keep Bunny on the regular formula and monitor her weight for a bit. I was thinking of staring the Grizzly Salmon Oil as well so good to know the calorie content. Thanks


I emailed the company and they sent me a PDF with a detailed analysis. My dogs are not k9 athletes but with the work figure 1-2 hours a day and then maybe 4 hours on a weekend. It is the endurance of working long periods in warm humid weather. In all fairness, Beau is not an "outside dog" for the most part because he must stay acclimatized to the heat. Now that Grim is a retired house dog I can back up for him.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Here is an article from, 1970 as to the requirements of military working dogs.
I figure during this reasearch and awful lot of these dogs were in Vietnam. And then Lackland is in Texas where it is probably quite hot. Back then I remember a lot of horses wound up in dog food so they were probably getting meat meals...but they came up with their own diet for these working dogs.

29% protein, 26% fat. - of course the dogs were getting 2500+ calories a day.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD0716392


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Another interesting article. Though I figured calorie intake based on kg of a 70lb dog (32) and I know I am not feeding my 10 month old puppy what I come up with based on the equation...... but the chart looks about right. I would say he is getting about 2000 calories a day.

They indicated in their paper better performance of working greyhounds with less, not more protein though. They also indicate what I felt. High fat DURING EXCERCISE STRESS can improve performance. 

So I am more along the lines of keeping fat and protein in normal ranges such as 26/17 and making fat/protein treats for harder work days. And for him, this is mainly aerobic (endurance work) as opposed to sprinting etc.

http://www.walthamusa.com/articles/clife.pdf

AND, yes, this is also old stuff.......but it is what I am finding.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Glad I went searching for this thread today otherwise I would have missed the articles. Thanks for posting. I'll definitely take a look at them.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Just put a link to this thread - has some more interesting info and links.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/182800-need-advice-problem-high-protein.html


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

So, in simple terms (for me, please) I am thinking that the so-called BEST food is not necessarily the best for my dog. I agree.
I am trying to convince a friend of this who feeds his dog Orijen and the dog just lays around all day and poops mountains... stinky, undigested ones at that.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am thinking so too. I make ZERO claims to be any expert but just another dog owner who is reflecting on 30 years of owning and feeding GSDs and talking with folks about what does and doesn't work for them. Amazed that people will persist on a dog food that their dog is clearly not thriving on because it is "the" food they must feed. Might work great for a lot of dogs, just not theirs.

Having chemistry and biochemistry degrees does give me some tools in my toolbox , but they are rusty tools at that having been a CQE for the past 12 years. Have to sort out the sales talks and garbage science from the real stuff.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I just switched from Blue Wilderness to Fromm Gold. Bunny hated the Blue Wilderness so I got a sample of the Fromm Gold and she loved it! I believe it's lower protein and fat. I didn't realize the Fromm Gold was cheaper than the Fromm Grain-free otherwise I would have switched to that in the first place. Bottom line is she is happy, I'm happy, and my bank account is happy


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