# What does term "Amish puppymill" mean?



## ValleyGirl (Dec 31, 2010)

On a recent thread, a poster used the term " Amish puppymill" without definition as though everyone knows what that is. I don't know. What is an Amish puppymill? I know who the "Amish" are and what a "puppymill" is but not the term using these two words.

I have never read of a "Baptist puppymill" or a "Catholic puppymill" or a "Muslin puppymill" for that matter. So am curious what the term "Amish puppymill" is. Since the true Amish do not have electricity much less computers I know none can respond. Anyone else? Thanks. Susan


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

It means exactly what it says. A puppymill run by the Amish. Very common.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

The Amish can breed dogs just like anyone else. I'm sure some good & some bad. My mother-in-law bought a German Schnauzer from an Amish breeder over 11 years ago. She knew very soon afterwards that she made a poor choice. The dog is still alive but is a bunch of weak & wacky nerves-I cannot even begin to tell you how neurotic this dog is.

Looking back she knows clearly it was a puppy mill operation out of Southern Ohio.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Some Amish people have discovered the money making possibilties of breeding dogs for profit. 

Many people in my area have also discovered this. In the Ozarks lots of people breed and then wholesale pups to brokers for distribution to selling outlets.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Puppies 'Viewed as Livestock' in Amish Community, Says Rescue Advocate - ABC News


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)




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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I don't want to offend anyone but I can tell you that some people do not regard animals as precious beloved pets or beloved family members. They see animals as animals and treat them as such. Anyone associated with the mass production of puppies for profit is a puppy mill doesn't matter what word is put infront of "puppy mill".


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Example: NY kennel owner admits gassing 93 dogs with farm engine | Philly Dawg | 09/13/2010

Term: H-Net Discussion Networks - Query: Origins of the Terms "Puppy Mills" and "Factory Farming"

Maybe? Answers.com - Where did the word puppy mill come from and a little history? Puppy Mills: Definition, History, And Locations


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## ValleyGirl (Dec 31, 2010)

I am the original poster. Thank you for the information. If undercover investigation shows puppymills are prevelant in that community, then it is what it is and I am honestly shocked to hear it. I am no advocate of the Amish as I do not condone their attitude toward education but know that any Amish breeder would be considered a byb or hobby breeder on this forum because the Amish can not very well go to dog shows (in a horse and buggy?) or trials to get their dogs titles. That is, it is possible for any particular Amish family to be breeders that care for their dogs and are no worse than any other hobby breeder. Puppymill is a whole other thing. Wow. I am sadder but wiser.

Susan


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The Amish are a community, a lifestyle and a religion. This is important to remember when you consider puppy mills. 

I bought a dog from an Amish fellow who probably was a puppy mill. I answered an ad in the paper, and it said, let phone ring, I did. And eventually someone came on, and then they had to go and Fetch the guy with the puppies. They did, and I set up a time to go and see the puppies.

I have NEVER seen a better set up. The dog was all German showlines, with a-stamps all the way back. The sire was not his, but was a friend's dog, schutzhund III, Kkl1, ad, V-rated, nice dog: 
V Jago von der Windburg - German shepherd dog The dogs had AKC paperwork -- not a stamp of quality, but they were not selling some strange registry worth less than the parchment. The dog received shots and a shot record from a vet. He was a nice dog.




























I met the dam and the dam's dam, they were in huge fields of a couple of acres each. 

The puppies were clean in a nice shed built for the purpose, with windows and a window on the top, wood shavings as bedding. The little Amish girl and boy were playing with the puppies. 

It seemed such a nice setting for raising dogs, ideal really. I bought the dog, and he was definitely worth what I paid for him. 

The people were nice, the wife asked if I would be keeping him inside. I got the impression they cared about the dogs.

I saw no other dogs. 

But you have to remember about the lifestyle and the community.

Amish are farmers and carpenters. They work together with their extended family/community. They have land -- lots of it. And they use animals in a very utilitarian way. Do they mistreat their horses? Some idiots may have a hard hand, and be less mindful of their critters, but that is true of all horse owners. They need their buggy horses to pull their buggies, to be fast, strong, they want them healthy. They need their work horses to do heavy work, and they depend on them, they will take care of them. They may not buy toys for their stalls, but they provide them with food and water, exercise, etc. But yes, they are animals to them. And so are dogs. 

They have land, yes. No way was I all over that man's farm, and if I did go over it all, there is no reason why the man might not house his dogs on another piece of his land. 

Amish people are a community. They are going to help each other. But with all the press about Amish puppy mills, they are going to be limited as to who will sell breeding stock to them, and who they can sell to. So, they are going to sell dogs cheaper, because of to whom they are selling. They will not be squeamish about selling to brokers or pet stores -- they are animals afterall. 

The fellow I bought my pup from, well I saw the same listing for King Charles Spaniels, and then for another type of dog. It is possible that he has a brother who does King Charles Spaniels, and another that does the other, and they all work at the same place that has the phone. I don't know, but it is fishy. 

Again, they are a community, a lifestyle, and a religion. Perhaps the majority of Amish breeders are great people. But we _know_ about some really foul scumbags. They frequent and maybe put on dog auctions each year, and the dogs at the auctions are treated badly. I think if ever I was to buy from an Amish again, I would have to know them personally and their dogs. 

The guy that lives across the street from me is not a breeder. He has a farm dog, looks like a Bermese Mountain Dog, or Greater Swiss Mountain Dog. I do not know if it has ever been inside, but it accompanies the guy in his work around the farm constantly. My guess is that it gets more people time with the man and his kids, than most dogs do that live in the house.

Not a bad life for a dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

they are community run breeding operations where you might have 20 to 30 litters per year --- made beautifully interesting to the buying public with images of a slower paced, bucolic life with lots of sunshine . You are buying the dog , not the life style or a holiday.
Window dressing. Often big names or good names on the pedigree, mostly show lines because they are easier to "just sell" (no guarantees on work , no need to evaluate for aptitude or drives) -- , pups to homes . No particular plan to improve anything or for long term use. Often pups are first generation from direct imports , rarely using their own stock for the next generation because it does not have the same appeal or sales cache .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, I have seen Amish at dog shows. They attended our dog club's meeting with the senator on dog legislation -- people were mixed about them being there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> they are community run breeding operations where you might have 20 to 30 litters per year --- made beautifully interesting to the buying public with images of a slower paced, bucolic life with lots of sunshine . You are buying the dog , not the life style or a holiday.
> Window dressing. Often big names or good names on the pedigree, mostly show lines because they are easier to "just sell" (no guarantees on work , no need to evaluate for aptitude or drives) -- , pups to homes . No particular plan to improve anything or for long term use. Often pups are first generation from direct imports , rarely using their own stock for the next generation because it does not have the same appeal or sales cache .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


The breeder's name that I got the dog from was not Miller or Yoder and I had no idea they were Amish until I arrived at their home. So, I really do not think they were trying to go for the Amish appeal in marketing. 

I have only bought one thing in my life BECAUSE it was Amish. That was a small package of pancake mix. I did not use it right away, and when I did, there were weevils in it. Our flour is radiated to kill the weevils. 

But because it is a religion, we can get carried away with thinking these folks are honest. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't but it is important not to give them a free pass. I mean, seeing the same ad with a different breed, made me realize that probably this guy was brining his bitches out and his pups out when they were about ready to go home. He probably had some kennels out back some where that were not open to public scrutiny, and possibly not up to public scrutiny. If that is so, than I need to hurl a few times to know that I supported that, and move on.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I did not realize they engaged so much with the outside world -- did they arrive by car ? I thought modern conveniences such as electricity and cars eroded the elements of their religion.
I frequent a nursery run by ambitious 7th Day Adventists. Full compliments to the care they put into their operation, the quality , the variety, the service. But underneath all that I still get the feeling that they are looking at me as "the other" doomed to really bad places because I am buzzing around on Saturday !!
There is a duality , don't join "them" but let's use them . lol and the world goes round
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

They may have been Mennonites?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sucking in air --- I hope they have a good grasp of genetics . Amish community are the studied model in expression of genetic recessives because of close or in or too close breeding --- 6th finger polydactylism (spelling?) being not entirely uncommon in the Amish community .
Carmen


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wonder if they believe in vaccinations....
We have an Amish community just south of me and the Mennonites are prevalent too. My nephew is dating a girl(18) who was raised as a Mennonite, but you wouldn't know it unless she mentioned it. She is one of the rebels!

I bought a pie from an Amish roadside stand, it was musty tasting and I threw it away after spitting out the first bite.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One of my best friends in college -- electrical engineering program was a Mennonite. I do not know what all they believe. 

Amish people cannot drive automobiles, but they can ride in them. And they do. If they want to go somewhere, they will. 

The dog I got was pretty well bred, but then the sire was imported and both sire and dam of the dam were imported, show lines, by someone who seemed to know what they were doing.

They did have a vet vaccinate the puppies -- had shot records from a vet.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

These articles are so sad 

Amish and Puppy Mills


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

selzer said:


> Amish people cannot drive automobiles, but they can ride in them. And they do. If they want to go somewhere, they will.


My dad hires a family of Amish folks when he needs buildings fixed, roofs replaced, and horses broke. They are good folk. Dad tells me some stories they tell him, and I'm not so sure they aren't just getting a kick out of telling an old man stories. 

When he had a horse broke (to pull a buggy) the guy came to my dad's place. Dad was always there. Dad said he was really impressed, the young man that did the training worked the horse like magic. Just kept pushing and pushing until the horse got it. Never offered to whip the horse, or use any type of cruelty. When he was done he took my parents for a ride through out the town - with dad's horse pulling the buggy. 

My dad returns favors for them by driving them places when needed. It is always the young folk that he drives, never the elders.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

selzer said:


> One of my best friends in college -- electrical engineering program was a Mennonite. I do not know what all they believe.


Mennonites have the same belief structure as the Amish. The difference is that the Mennonites believe in using modern convienences. There are also different sects of Mennonite. There is the "stricter" one where the women always wear the net bonnets (called sin sifters by many of the older folks where I grew up), handmade clothing, the men wear certain attire and beards and drive dark vehicles. The other sect is more "modern" and the women do not always wear the bonnets and work outside of the home. They drive any kind of colored vehicle. 

I grew up in PA and there was a large Mennonite population around us as well as where I lived when I lived near Schwenksville, PA.

I have mixed feelings about the Amish. To them, animals serve are purpose. Like the "general public" there are good and bad folks in the Amish community. To them, breeding dogs is a means to make money. I've read too many accounts of the dog breeders breeding mulitple dog breeds and breeding many litters in a year. They are not in the business to breed dogs for the betterment of the breed. They are in it to make money.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Their way of life is just that....."their way of life".
As "ours" is the way we live....
There are many places around the world, that view "our" companion animals as other objects......"livestock, wealth or social status,* food*, beast of burden...etc..etc"

It's the plain fact...as hard as it is for many of us to swallow...


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

robinhuerta said:


> Their way of life is just that....."their way of life".
> As "ours" is the way we live....
> There are many places around the world, that view "our" companion animals as other objects......"livestock, wealth or social status,* food*, beast of burden...etc..etc"
> 
> It's the plain fact...as hard as it is for many of us to swallow...


Hit the nail on the head. :thumbup:


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## ValleyGirl (Dec 31, 2010)

Mennonites are indeed not like the Amish including views on education. I believe its a fact that the Amish, the Mennonites, and the Church of the Brethern are all part of the Antabaptist movement and thus share a common origin. But the Mennonites and the C of the B not only accept the modern world but they both believe in strong education and have founded colleges. I hope the Mennonites are not keeping puppymills. This whole deal of Amish puppymills is very depressing. 

Being religious is no guarantee of anything. I think the farming aspect does tend to spread a romantic but unrealistic haze that covers some unsavory (at least to city folk) aspects with respect to animals. I do not think it is uncommon for livestock farmers generally -- regardless of religion-- to view their dogs and cats much less sentimentally than city people do. Just my experience from living in a city and then retiring to a very rural county that is the second most agricultural in the state.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Interesting perspective on the topic:

 http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/a_gathering_storm_pt_1.pdf

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/a_gathering_storm_pt_2.pdf


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## bruiser (Feb 14, 2011)

The video made made ill...I hate puppy mills no matter who they are. Poor abused animals.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DnP said:


> Mennonites have the same belief structure as the Amish. The difference is that the Mennonites believe in using modern convienences. There are also different sects of Mennonite. There is the "stricter" one where the women always wear the net bonnets (called sin sifters by many of the older folks where I grew up), handmade clothing, the men wear certain attire and beards and drive dark vehicles. The other sect is more "modern" and the women do not always wear the bonnets and work outside of the home. They drive any kind of colored vehicle.
> 
> I grew up in PA and there was a large Mennonite population around us as well as where I lived when I lived near Schwenksville, PA.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about the Amish. To them, animals serve are purpose. Like the "general public" there are good and bad folks in the Amish community. To them, breeding dogs is a means to make money. I've read too many accounts of the dog breeders breeding mulitple dog breeds and breeding many litters in a year. They are not in the business to breed dogs for the betterment of the breed. They are in it to make money.


I too have mixed feelings about the Amish. I respect them as people and their way of life and thats about it.

Would I buy from an Amish breeder? Probably not.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

There is an Amish farm near where I live. They have a sign for pug puppies for sate. The sign goes up every few weeks, then comes down after a few weeks. Like clockwork. I have never been on the property, so I do not know what the conditions are like. But if I were into pugs (shudder) I would not buy from them.

OTOH, I bought almost all the lumber that we used to build our house from an Amish family. Local wood, locally harvested and milled. 

I also had a bad experience with I think it was Mennonite baked goods. I bought a bag of pasta at the Syracuse Regional Market a few years ago, and noticed when it was boiling in the pot that it was filled with bugs. After that I just started making my own pasta...


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

I had never before heard of an Amish puppy mill...interesting. 

Now I know not to buy pancake mix or pasta...kinda yuck. I'm sure some is fine - I wonder if they eat the bugs or..? 

I had no idea about the genetic stuff from inbreeding. Interesting. 

Probably the most interesting thing I learned about the Amish was the Rumspringa - I think I saw it in a documentary. I remember being surprised that the Amish teens would go out and do...things not Amish. It was really interesting to watch


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

GSD_Xander said:


> Probably the most interesting thing I learned about the Amish was the Rumspringa - I think I saw it in a documentary. I remember being surprised that the Amish teens would go out and do...things not Amish. It was really interesting to watch


LOL, when we moved where we did (a half mile away from an Amish community) my dad warned me about that! Except he called it "wilding."  I think he was serious.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

GSD_Xander said:


> Probably the most interesting thing I learned about the Amish was the Rumspringa - I think I saw it in a documentary. I remember being surprised that the Amish teens would go out and do...things not Amish. It was really interesting to watch


Ever watched the movie "Sex drive" ? Funny 

People keeping hundreds of dogs in tiny cages their entire lives, not funny.  and what percentage of uneducated puppy buyers, who actually buy these pups have them a year later? Bet it ain't much. Shelters are full because of this rampant stupidity.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They also do know how to disguise marketing them as not being miller pups. My mom adopted a dog that was clearly a PM pup from an Amish breeder and the previous owner had no clue. He thought he was buying from a good breeder(because of course he was clueless) 
Amish have their niche; homegrown, innocent, and wholesome....if you choose to believe it. 
More of a lifestyle than a 'religion'


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

OH yeah...and c-sections at home without anesthia? Common? Now come on folks....I don't care who you are, that is just WRONG.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

ValleyGirl said:


> Mennonites are indeed not like the Amish including views on education. I believe its a fact that the Amish, the Mennonites, and the Church of the Brethern are all part of the Antabaptist movement and thus share a common origin. But the Mennonites and the C of the B not only accept the modern world but they both believe in strong education and have founded colleges. I hope the Mennonites are not keeping puppymills. This whole deal of Amish puppymills is very depressing.
> 
> Being religious is no guarantee of anything. I think the farming aspect does tend to spread a romantic but unrealistic haze that covers some unsavory (at least to city folk) aspects with respect to animals. *I do not think it is uncommon for livestock farmers generally -- regardless of religion-- to view their dogs and cats much less sentimentally than city people do.* Just my experience from living in a city and then retiring to a very rural county that is the second most agricultural in the state.


I completely agree! Where I grew up, people who let dogs in the house were wierd and extreme. Dogs are to guard the house and property and maybe to play with the kids. Cats are to catch mice in the barn. Most of my family thinks I am crazy for having dogs in my house and two of my sisters have kept dogs on chains outside. It is a different way of life. I don't like it, but it is what it is.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I did not realize they engaged so much with the outside world -- did they arrive by car ? I thought modern conveniences such as electricity and cars eroded the elements of their religion...


It is my understanding that each district makes the rules on electricity, phone. I have read that some can have a phone and electricity in their barn, some can have elecric for appliances, but not lights.

I think that it is more about the simple life and denying "self" than it is that those things in and of themselves are "sin". Just what I gathered from reading.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ValleyGirl said:


> Being religious is no guarantee of anything.


THAT is the truth. Doesn't matter what the topic is.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> THAT is the truth. Doesn't matter what the topic is.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> THAT is the truth. Doesn't matter what the topic is.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I spent most of my adult life in Waterloo Region, home of the Amish/Mennonite/Country market, people arrive by the thousands to frequent the stockyards in St. Jacobs market, buying into the horse and buggy, farm-fresh lifestyle. Where they think anyone gets melon in the dead of winter from.... It isn't fresh folks, it's from the terminal, there's an auction every week in Elmira of terminal food.
Anywho, it is becoming a very large problem the breeding of dogs for profit - puppy millers amongst that community. My understanding from business people who have the privilege of working in that community supplying services and or product is that yes, there are several different sects/orders. Once a company or organization is black-balled, they are black-balled for life. A friend of mine was a funeral director, the young man he prepared was killed in an accident on the road, my friend put make-up on him, he was immediately black-balled and his services were never again solicited by the community. The dead man had severe road rash, Mennonite funerals are held at home, several days of visitation, no a/c, no real way to slow decomposition which as everyone knows in summer in Ontario, add in our humidity and you have a nice melty person.
The way it was explained to me, when a young couple marry, they are given a farm by the elders, a price is established for the farm and the couple have "X" number of years to pay off that farm. Short time, high price in comparison, they do pretty much anything to make a buck. It is a tough lifestyle, not one I would ever envy. Are their sausages 90% water and filler? Yup! Don't pierce one! Is the fruit in their pies fresh - probably not and I think the worst was attending a farm auction and seeing them buying quilts for a dime a dozen, knowing dang well they would be on sale the following week at the market for a couple hundred bucks a pop. Not saying they are all like that, but there are quite a few, the private nature of their culture, makes it tough to infiltrate and do much about the puppymillers.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> LOL, when we moved where we did (a half mile away from an Amish community) my dad warned me about that! Except he called it "wilding."  I think he was serious.


He was  Some Amish communities use that term to refer to the period of time where teenagers are allowed to go into the outside world and do anything they want without recrimination. At the end of that time, the teenager makes a final decision - stay with the Amish community, or join the outside world and don't return to the community.

About the food - that's a real shame to hear. My grandparents lived just outside the Amish community in PA, and one of my fondest childhood memories was going to the huge Green Dragon market. I understand it's dwindled to almost nothing  Other than the shoo-fly pies (always have hated those), the food was excellent.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I was in high school, girls had to take home-economics -- yeah I am dating myself. Boys took wood shop. 

Anyhow, the reason you sifted the flour once or twice, was to get rid of weavils. Ew!

I do not know exactly when they started radiating flour to kill the weavils eggs before they got big enough to be noticed. But this is why we generally do not see bugs in our pancakes or pasta. 

The Amish do not use this technology. So if you get something, well, it can be wormy/weavily. Ick!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

protein
I took both home ec and wood shop, we had to take both for a well rounded appearance. The woodshop teacher was a letch, so it is creepy to see my wooden lathe bowl...memories of him linger!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

EEEEEK!.....bugs....HIGHSCHOOL WOODSHOP.....icky, sweaty, stinky shop teachers....EEEEEEEK!!!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I took woodshop too. I made a really crappy looking gun holder.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Interesting. I live in CA but work in Lancaster, PA (obviously I work from home). I have heard a few aside comments by the doctors in Lancaster about Amish patients and some of their typical genetic "closed community" conditions. I had no idea, though, that they were raising dogs as business. I also just saw that special on Rumspringa (sp?) and was shocked not only at what the kids were doing while out of the community, but their comments in general about life in the community. We have a huge Mennonite population where I live, but they really just keep to themselves and are pleasant at the craft fairs and such.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Cara Fusinato said:


> Interesting. I live in CA but work in Lancaster, PA (obviously I work from home). I have heard a few aside comments by the doctors in Lancaster about Amish patients and some of their typical genetic "closed community" conditions. I had no idea, though, that they were raising dogs as business. I also just saw that special on Rumspringa (sp?) and was shocked not only at what the kids were doing while out of the community, but their comments in general about life in the community. We have a huge Mennonite population where I live, but they really just keep to themselves and are pleasant at the craft fairs and such.


I didn't know there were Amish people in CA.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Probably the most interesting thing I learned about the Amish was the Rumspringa


I learned about it on an episode of Bones xD


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

ValleyGirl said:


> Being religious is no guarantee of anything. I think the farming aspect does tend to spread a romantic but unrealistic haze that covers some unsavory (at least to city folk) aspects with respect to animals. I do not think it is uncommon for livestock farmers generally -- regardless of religion-- to view their dogs and cats much less sentimentally than city people do. Just my experience from living in a city and then retiring to a very rural county that is the second most agricultural in the state.


 This is very true. Dog friends of mine moved to a rural area and were in for a bit of culture shock concerning people's views on pets. The other people in their area wondered why they'd put up fences if they don't have livestock, let their dogs run loose and have the attitude that if something happens to their dog, they'll just get another one. When one of the neighbor's dogs killed several their chickens, they were told by the neighbor to shoot the dog the next time they caught him over there. 




Xeph said:


> I learned about it on an episode of Bones xD


 You'll probably be seeing some Amish around now that you're moving to PA LOL

FWIW Store bought flour and pasta will get bugs too


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## abby (Mar 13, 2010)

Do they have to declare the thousands that they make on these poor dogs?????


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There are several Amish communities within driving distance. Have met quite a few who own/run saddlry/harness shops. Like any thing else, there are good and bad. 

The attitude towards livestock usually extends to small animals - cats and dogs. One fellow had a pet JRT that was in the shop with him and in the house. He did want to breed her, but did not know anyone with a male. His working farm was hay, grain, sheep and a greenhouse business (he had 7 daughters and 1 son). He had had a commercial saddle shop, then just a harness shop and he made alot of dog equipment for me. Unfortunately, he eventually gave up the harness shop (he did work for Tory and Bridgeport as well) because of not having enough help.

I have tried and use a few other Amish for equipment. At this point, I do it all via mail and rarely go to their shops/farms. One man had a 27 month old AKC GSD female, bought from HER BREEDER, who was a customer - he wanted me to let him breed her to my male. The poor thing was scared, skittish and her ears were freshly torn and bleeding from running through the barbed wire fences. She also moved oddly in the rear (highly probable that she failed OFA and her breeder dumped her there for a few hundred bucks!!). Of course, I refused, which annoyed him...he got the dog with the sole purpose of breeding her.

Another guy had Aussies, bred them, and when the pups were not all sold by 5 or 6 months, the wife told me that she had the boys take them out in the field and shoot them, as they were chasing the chickens. No remorse, just a matter of fact.

The last shop I know has a very pretty Euro showline female. She could not have puppies. She is spayed. She was given to him by a breeder who one of his clients with horses knew, and he assured me it was because he would give her "a good home". She will live her life tied on a 6 foot chain to a box as a watchdog. I have not been back to that shop since the day I saw the dog and heard the story. I was devastated by this poor dogs fate. A nice looking Euro showline, tatooed. 

And the Chinese will raise dogs and make them into rugs.

Sickening. All of it.

Lee


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## chinamom2 (Sep 16, 2007)

Living in Ohio, I am quite familiar with the Amish. They are the folks that show up at the dog auctions. I am quite appalled at the comments that we just need to understand that they don't view dogs as pets, rather as livestock. It goes way beyond this. A responsible farmer does not treat his livestock in the manner they treat these dogs. Responsible farmers don't shove their animals into tiny cages, overbreed them, inadequately feed them and worse yet let them suffer or not provide adequate medical care. They don't just treat their dogs badly, it goes to all their livestock. There is a reason why the Pennsylvania Humane Society would go to the horse auctions and try to buy their poorly treated horses.

I have a friend who ran a shelter in upper New York. She had to deal with the Amish. I will never forget the one time she told me of a visit to obtain some of the older dogs. In the corner of the barn, discarded to one side, was an older female dog. This female was considered worthless. She managed to talk the "farmer" into letting her buy the dog. Today that little dog, blind, toothless and in poor shape, is living out its' life in her home. She is determined its' last years will be filled with love.

I will not assume that all the Amish behave in this manner, but it doesn't seem to be controversial among the group.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I said that we need to understand that it is a lifestyle, religion, and a community, I never meant that we should excuse or overlook cruelty. 

I think that if we buy from Amish, we need to realized that they may not be what they look like on the surface -- I was there and saw a very clean, very nice set up with just the two bitches and the puppies. 

We need to understand that with the community, they may have resources, ways to hide the worst of what they do. As for lifestyle, I think that they could actually be awesome pet owners, and most of the ones I know take great care of their horses and their dogs. But they are unlikely to view their animals the way that pure pet owners do. Dogs are functional on the farm, as are other animals.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Quite some time ago I watched a TV documentary (can't remember which network). The program was on puppy mills. The producers revealed that the Amish (especially in PA) are absolutley the most notorious operators of puppy mills in the US and hold absolutely no regard for the welfare of their animals. I have since refused to buy anything made by them and I make sure when & if the subject of Amish "country"or Amish products comes up I don't hesitate to talk about that particular program.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

selzer said:


> When I said that we need to understand that it is a lifestyle, religion, and a community, I never meant that we should excuse or overlook cruelty.
> 
> I think that if we buy from Amish, we need to realized that they may not be what they look like on the surface -- I was there and saw a very clean, very nice set up with just the two bitches and the puppies.


What you described does not sound at all like a puppy mill, more like a byb. What is being talked about here are puppy mills.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Judging solely from their leatherwork and fireless fireplace craftsmanship, I'd say they make decent puppies?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Google image Amish puppymill.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

did you watch the vids I posted?


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Amish and Puppy Mills

Hunterisgreat...there is a video in this link...I can't watch it through.......


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Myamom said:


> Amish and Puppy Mills
> 
> Hunterisgreat...there is a video in this link...I can't watch it through.......


I'm on a phone and can't watch a video, but I'm guessing it would make me sad?


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

physically ill is more like it


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chicagocanine said:


> What you described does not sound at all like a puppy mill, more like a byb. What is being talked about here are puppy mills.


Yeah but a few week later, same ad, same phone number, same leave phone ring, King Charles Spaniels. A few weeks later, another breed. 

It could have been a puppy mill. 

I have no way of knowing that they do not bring up the saleable puppies to the house for a week or so while they are selling them, and then the bitch's go back to their tiny cages and are bred again.

Maybe not, maybe so. I find it fishy.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

hunterisgreat said:


> Judging solely from their leatherwork and fireless fireplace craftsmanship, I'd say they make decent puppies?


 No - they are no making decent puppies - maybe an exception out there - but no, I would not believe that they would make good puppies.

Not all of them do good leatherwork either. Out of over a dozen I tried, only 3 (2 in PA, 1 in KY) do nice work. Functional does not need to be neat or pretty. They don't care if the machine has red thread and brown thread in it and the leather is black. Mose (the one with the JRT) seemed to take pretty good care of all his livestock, I was in his barn several times...all his horses had good condition, buggy and work and the kid's pony. 

The one who had the young female talked about his years out in the world before he came back. He said he came back because he missed his family, but he did like living in the "English" world.

Lee


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Myamom said:


> did you watch the vids I posted?



Yeah, bout lost my supper  But thanks, everyone needs to be reminded just how foul puppy mills are. Glad I didn't see GSD's in the video, I'd probably go postal Sickening stuff.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know a Mose in PA, he worked on my Mom's tack room building. I wonder if it is the same guy.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I live surronded by Amish and Mennonites. I've never heard of the Amish puppymill problem. Thanks for the information. Wow. I guess it doesn't surprise me, though.

My husband and I suspect that most amish stuff.....is tourist based. Slap the brand "made by amish" and people are willing to buy.

The dirty secret that most people don't know....amish/mennonites shop just like we do. I see them in Walmart all the time. I see them in banks. I see them in the Dollar Store. I see them at the Sprint store. I see them in Krogers. I see them in Gabriel Brothers (cheap clothing) I see them in Goodwill. I see them in book stores. I've seen them in the mall.
I've even seen some talking on cell phones. I've been behind some that pay for their purcharses with debit/credit cards. The other day I was in Bed, Bath, and Beyond. A mennonite lady had a bed quilt and some towels in her cart.

My daughter's boyfriend.....part of his family is mennonite. He told me it's all about the money. Like I said, slap "made by amish" and it sells.

Anytime there is an auction of a house and the stuff around here......you can usually count on atleast 20 buggies lined up to buy the stuff. A house down the road went to auction the other day. We couldn't even get down the road due to all the buggies blocking the way.

I am not surprised about the puppy mills.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

People should understand also that most "Amish Puppymill" wesbites/info are all AR based propaganda. Obviously, there are commercial breeders (Amish and otherwise) who neglect their animals. However, there are plenty who have nice facilities and take good care of their animals as well. There is an Amish run commercial doodler breeder in this area who has a nice, clean set up and has a groomer come in every few months to bathe and clip the dogs/puppies. Not some place I would buy a dog obviously but not like the propaganda on the web either.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> There is an Amish run commercial *doodler breeder* in this area who has a nice, clean set up and has a groomer come in every few months to bathe and clip the dogs/puppies. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Doodler breeder? I get the poodle part, but what is the "D"?


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## chinamom2 (Sep 16, 2007)

AgileGSD said:


> People should understand also that most "Amish Puppymill" wesbites/info are all AR based propaganda. Obviously, there are commercial breeders (Amish and otherwise) who neglect their animals. However, there are plenty who have nice facilities and take good care of their animals as well. There is an Amish run commercial doodler breeder in this area who has a nice, clean set up and has a groomer come in every few months to bathe and clip the dogs/puppies. Not some place I would buy a dog obviously but not like the propaganda on the web either.


Sorry, can't agree and I am not a rabid AR nut. I have no problem with reputable breeders. Puppymills are a big problem within the Amish and Mennonite community. I work with a rescue in town that is devoted to the care of puppymill dogs. Their dogs mostly come from the dog auctions heavily attended by the Amish. Here is a link to Miss Inez, who as the rescue will say was "pulled from the Amish puppymill auction" and partly why puppymills are a concern. http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/15323939

As for the doodle breeder, no matter how nice he may care for his dogs, there is nothing reputable about breeding designer dogs.

BTW, Mennonites can drive cars and have electricity. Many of the women work outside of the home.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

chinamom2 said:


> As for the doodle breeder, no matter how nice he may care for his dogs, there is nothing reputable about breeding designer dogs.


 I wouldn't expect dog people to approve of any Doodle breeder. But the fact is, their facility is nice, clean and the dogs are being cared for. It isn't illegal to breed and sell dogs, not yet anyway. I would suspect, due to numbers alone that there are probably more non-Amish commercial breeders than Amish ones. Yet there is always a distinction made between "puppy mill" and "Amish puppy mill". It's all propaganda. There are plenty of pet owners who neglect and abuse their animals. I could find pictures of horribly neglected animals but does it prove? Does it show you how horrible pet owners are? AR (and shelters/rescues which are largely AR at this point) pick the worst of the worst to portray what ALL breeders or breeders of a certain type are like. And the public eats it up. The public now suspects almost any breeder of being a puppy mill and anyone with more than a couple pets to be a hoarder. AR mission accomplished. Propaganda and the use of emotionally charged labels can be extremely successful political tools.


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## LHunter82FXRS (Oct 20, 2008)

GSD_Xander said:


> ....
> 
> Probably the most interesting thing I learned about the Amish was the Rumspringa - I think I saw it in a documentary. I remember being surprised that the Amish teens would go out and do...things not Amish. It was really interesting to watch


I saw a documentary about Rumspringa too, called The Devils Playground.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lilie said:


> AgileGSD said:
> 
> 
> > There is an Amish run commercial *doodler breeder* in this area who has a nice, clean set up and has a groomer come in every few months to bathe and clip the dogs/puppies. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Lilie said:
> 
> 
> > Dalmatian/Poodle?
> ...


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Here in Pa I think it has become the top puppy mill area of all. There are so many kennels that have been shut down due to numerous violations and no corrections are made. One kennel had 360 dogs seized. These poor dogs stand in their own urine and feces. Have dirty water and very little food, if any. The adults are used for one purpose only; MONEY. It is such a shame. As long as they can be bred that is all that matters. As soon as they can no longer be bred, they are discarded. (use your imagination) I actually rescued a Fox Terrier from that situation. Buyers said she was too big, and made larger puppies then people preferred, because they wanted small ones. They decided not to breed her anymore and were just going to get rid of her. No remorse, sadness, nothing at all. I took that poor girl into my home and she is now living a happy, loving life. She knows love and a warm bed. They should all be shut down and prosecuted for what they do to those poor helpless animals.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

selzer said:


> I know a Mose in PA, he worked on my Mom's tack room building. I wonder if it is the same guy.


Mose is as common a name among the amish as John is in our culture. I have known this one for a long time - over 20 years. He always had a business - the harness/saddle shop before he got married, then the leather making after he got married - now the greenhouse as the girls can work in it...he read the papers, was articulate and totally non-typical of most of them that I have met...he kept Tilly as a pet - and was not a puppy miller or BYB...raised sheep and would sell fresh lambs (not the teeny tiny ones - but 80 pound ones!). I doubt he ever worked on a crew that did building.

Lee


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Lilie said:


> AgileGSD said:
> 
> 
> > There is an Amish run commercial *doodler breeder* in this area who has a nice, clean set up and has a groomer come in every few months to bathe and clip the dogs/puppies. QUOTE]
> ...


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm blown away by the fact that people shell out purebred money for a poodle mix. If you like the mix, why not try the real deal? Standard poodles are a riot, athletic and intelligent critters.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Chicagocanine said:


> "Doodle" is sometimes used as a general term for poodle crosses as in Goldendoodle, Labradoodle etc... Unfortunately the "etc" is also a long list as it seems almost anything that is crossed with a Poodle sells well. :/


You got it! I just call them all Doodles LOL And regardless of how many people feel about them, they aren't going away any time soon. Pet people like them and they are becoming more common with service dog organizations too. 



Chicagocanine said:


> And no I am not an AR person, I do not support or agree with Animal Rights movements or organizations, and most of the rescue groups I know of are interested in animal welfare but not AR.


 Wish I could say the same. Most rescue groups/people I have come across support AR, even if they don't think they do.


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