# Kraftwerk K9-Rochester, WA



## K.Creek

Out of curiosity, has anyone else purchased or considered purchasing a GSD from Kraftwerk K9 (Wayne Curry) from Rochester, Washington? I was just curious about others' experience with the breeder and just friendly conversation with someone else who owns one of their dogs...any input/comments welcome!

I have also attached a picture of my Sadie (vom Kraftwerk) at one year
Sire: Oruger the Boom vom Kraftwerk
Dam: Nixe vom Kraftwerk


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## elisabeth_00117

My dogs sire comes from Kraftwerk and I know 1 other male from the same kennel with the same sire as yours. 

My dogs sire is very balanced, high thresholds, medium drive. Very aloof but goofy with those he knows. Loves the ball.

The other male is young, so take this for what it is worth, HIGH toy drive (almost extreme), high energy, low to medium thresholds, friendly and can be extreme for the ball. 

Both are nice dogs and from my experience with interacting with them over the course of a few years, wouldn't have any negative things to say about Kraftwerk via the 2 dogs I have met and interacted with.


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## K.Creek

Thanks Elizabeth! Sadie is a year now and has done very well in obedience thus far and I plan to keep working with her. Sadie has no issues with people, but doesn't love strange dogs too much (working on that!). She is right at 85 lbs and has an incredible muscular build...I have just started working with a private trainer on fine tuning her skills (maintaining her attention). She likes to play but is very easily distracted by other things in the yard. She is obsessed with mouthing my chi weenie on the top of the head, any corrective suggestions there? I tell her no right as she is going in to mouth him and she stops but repeats this behavior about every 20 seconds and it is very annoying to me and my husband, but especially to little Max, considered an e-collar, thoughts?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Met a Kraftwerk male in my local area about 2 years old, the dog had incredible presence, ball drive and ultra confident. The dog was on his own turf though so you dont really know till you have seen him in different environments and situations. He was oversized though..

Didnt like his son though, but that could have been the dams influence. Also their pups are incredibly overpriced imo. 5k!! You can pick up a nice import that already on the sleeve for that much.



K.Creek said:


> Out of curiosity, has anyone else purchased or considered purchasing a GSD from Kraftwerk K9 (Wayne Curry) from Rochester, Washington? I was just curious about others' experience with the breeder and just friendly conversation with someone else who owns one of their dogs...any input/comments welcome!
> 
> I have also attached a picture of my Sadie (vom Kraftwerk) at one year
> Sire: Oruger the Boom vom Kraftwerk
> Dam: Nixe vom Kraftwerk


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## K.Creek

@blitzkreig tell me about it!! They recently raised their prices because my female was not quite that pricey...I was considering an import? Any experience or suggestions there?


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## blehmannwa

I met a lovely Kraftwerk girl in my local park when Havoc was a puppy. She was a presence. She wanted nothing to do with my puppy but simply refused to acknowledge his existence as her owner and I chatted.


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## Blitzkrieg1

K.Creek said:


> @blitzkreig tell me about it!! They recently raised their prices because my female was not quite that pricey...I was considering an import? Any experience or suggestions there?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was considering one myself for a bit as I am in the market for a pup. Its risky because you get what you get. I hear good things about eurosport k9 but I have not owned a dog from them so cannot give you a direct recommendation.

Their puppy price is reasonable young dogs are between 4-5k which is the going rate. 

There are some breeders in the states that I would buy a dog from. Simply because they compete successfully with their dogs and have a lot of happy customers.

Sportwaffen k9
Bill Kulla

They breed the type of dog I would happily own, but it depends what you are looking for.


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## GSDElsa

Horribly overpriced. They were ridiculously expensive before, now the prices the dogs are going for are just mindboggling!

Google the breeder. Lots of people have lots to say. Some good and some very bad.


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## elisabeth_00117

HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend Bill Kulla. 

My best friend and neighbour has a young (2 years) male out of Cayos and Hilde. This dog has the most ROCK SOLID nerve/temperament I have ever seen in ANY dog, EVER. Drivy when working, very good in the house, good prey/fight drives. VERY BALANCED dog. 

I love the Czech lines, but am seriously considering them as a breeder as well. 

The male I know has never faltered, no matter what was presented or came upon him. EVER.

ETA: I see this dog daily and spend most of my day with him... as we train, hang out together, travel together, etc... our dogs basically live with one another except at night and maybe one or two days per week... if that long... LOL.


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## Rei

A year and a half ago I was at a club trial, and had someone point out a Kraftwerk dog to me. The dog was purchased as a trained and titled adult and at the trial for a 2 or a 3? Well, the dog was cute, but it was fairly clear that the dog was not what the owners paid for. And having seen the prices on their website, that itself was probably a small fortune.


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## K.Creek

I appreciate all of your input! I will say I am very happy with my Kraftwerk dog. She has a very nice build, strong head and a great temperament. She went to her first obedience trial last weekend (no qualifying score) but had she of completed her recall by sitting we would've placed 3rd with a 182.5. Now my dog is only a year old and only had 12 weeks of formal training so you can understand why I was so impressed.
One thing that drew me to Kraftwerk was the appearance of the dogs. I cannot stand the people who are breeding this God awful sloped back, hip dysphasia into the animals. I want a strong dog with a great presence and that's exactly what I got. 
Just so everyone doesn't think I am a crazy advocate for Kraftwerk, I will say that I wasn't happy with their over all business dealings (not returning phone calls, emails, etc.) but I couldn't be happier with my dog 


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## Blitzkrieg1

K.Creek said:


> I appreciate all of your input! I will say I am very happy with my Kraftwerk dog. She has a very nice build, strong head and a great temperament. She went to her first obedience trial last weekend (no qualifying score) but had she of completed her recall by sitting we would've placed 3rd with a 182.5. Now my dog is only a year old and only had 12 weeks of formal training so you can understand why I was so impressed.
> One thing that drew me to Kraftwerk was the appearance of the dogs. I cannot stand the people who are breeding this God awful sloped back, hip dysphasia into the animals. I want a strong dog with a great presence and that's exactly what I got.
> Just so everyone doesn't think I am a crazy advocate for Kraftwerk, I will say that I wasn't happy with their over all business dealings (not returning phone calls, emails, etc.) but I couldn't be happier with my dog
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You would think they would do at least that for the kind of prices they are charging. FYI with the kind of size I saw on both their dogs in my neck of the woods hip dysplasia would be a concern for me as with all dogs over 100 lbs.


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## lhczth

Sounds like you are very happy with your puppy and that, in the long run, is all that matters. 

I have trained with a couple of Kraftwerk dogs. Neither was my type of dog, but both owners were happy.


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## Xeph

> I cannot stand the people who are breeding this God awful sloped back, hip dysphasia into the animals.


I'm sorry, but I need to address this.

#1 It's hip dysplasia
#2 Nobody is breeding HD INTO their lines. That would make no sense.

Hip dysplasia is based on the actual hip conformation of the joint. Genetics determines how the bone forms. The amount of angulation a dog has has zip to do with whether or not a dog gets HD.

/off topic


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## Ltleo

Incorrect, angular does conform to hip or thus fused lamina positions. Yes genetics do play a huge role as DNA and RNA duplicate. But the increased angular slope over the original straight will over time limit the over all ability to withstand stress and compact force over the long term. This will increase Degenerative arthritis or arthritic stenosis atypical of genetic changes over a short time span


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## Anubis_Star

Ltleo said:


> Incorrect, angular does conform to hip or thus fused lamina positions. Yes genetics do play a huge role as DNA and RNA duplicate. But the increased angular slope over the original straight will over time limit the over all ability to withstand stress and compact force over the long term. This will increase Degenerative arthritis or arthritic stenosis atypical of genetic changes over a short time span


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

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## Mrs.P

Ltleo said:


> Incorrect, angular does conform to hip or thus fused lamina positions. Yes genetics do play a huge role as DNA and RNA duplicate. But the increased angular slope over the original straight will over time limit the over all ability to withstand stress and compact force over the long term. This will increase Degenerative arthritis or arthritic stenosis atypical of genetic changes over a short time span


Would love to see and read through these studies please post


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## Xeph

Indeed, I'd like to see such studies.

The length of the long bones may lead to arthritis later in life, but their length does not affect the coverage of the ball of the joint, which is part of what is used to disagnose HD


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## wolfstraum

With Kraftwerk as with another big commercial importer - the dogs are one aspect, the business dealings and breeder support is another.

I have seen many nice dogs on KWs site....would I buy from either of these? If I had that kind of money to throw away, I would go to Europe and buy directly....

If you want breeder support and a nice dog at a realistic price - there are quite a few breeders who fit those criteria

Lee


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## K.Creek

Ltleo said:


> Incorrect, angular does conform to hip or thus fused lamina positions. Yes genetics do play a huge role as DNA and RNA duplicate. But the increased angular slope over the original straight will over time limit the over all ability to withstand stress and compact force over the long term. This will increase Degenerative arthritis or arthritic stenosis atypical of genetic changes over a short time span


Agreed! I am partial to working line dogs but I also look back to the GSD standard...
I recently saw two GSD's at an AKC show, conformation, who literally could hardly walk, that is unacceptable. 
I feel as GSD owners we should be trying to abide, revert back to, meet, the GSD standard, as there is a reason it is a standard. These dogs were "engineered" so to speak by the Germans, body shape, bone structure, paws, coats, ears all bred for a reason. 

Somewhere along the way I believe a GSD was bred that had a severely sloping back, and someone said, I like that...and it spread like wildfire. It was appealing to someone, and therefore, they kept breeding that way. So to say that people would not intentionally breed this into a dog, as that doesn't make sense, is incorrect. They do it everyday because they like the way it looks. 

This is all IMHO...I know this will probably tick quite a few people off, and I'm not too concerned, as a GSD owner i am more concerned with the health and success of this breed.


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## wolfstraum

K.Creek said:


> Agreed! I am partial to working line dogs but I also look back to the GSD standard...
> I recently saw two GSD's at an AKC show, conformation, who literally could hardly walk, that is unacceptable.
> I feel as GSD owners we should be trying to abide, revert back to, meet, the GSD standard, as there is a reason it is a standard. These dogs were "engineered" so to speak by the Germans, body shape, bone structure, paws, coats, ears all bred for a reason.
> 
> Somewhere along the way I believe a GSD was bred that had a severely sloping back, and someone said, I like that...and it spread like wildfire. It was appealing to someone, and therefore, they kept breeding that way. So to say that people would not intentionally breed this into a dog, as that doesn't make sense, is incorrect. They do it everyday because they like the way it looks.
> 
> This is all IMHO...I know this will probably tick quite a few people off, and I'm not too concerned, as a GSD owner i am more concerned with the health and success of this breed.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There are many threads addressing the differences between the European dogs and the American show lines.....priorities in producing characteristics, and different standards - but angulation is NOT dysplasia....I have seen severely angulated dogs with OFA Excellent ratings....you cannot see dysplasia with the naked eye...you must take x-rays as it is the actual joint structure that is evaluated...

I personally do not like the movement crazy breeding for extreme angulation and the other ASL breed ring objectives...I like a functional structure and ability...but please do not mix up show style with HD.

Lee


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## K.Creek

wolfstraum said:


> There are many threads addressing the differences between the European dogs and the American show lines.....priorities in producing characteristics, and different standards - but angulation is NOT dysplasia....I have seen severely angulated dogs with OFA Excellent ratings....you cannot see dysplasia with the naked eye...you must take x-rays as it is the actual joint structure that is evaluated...
> 
> I personally do not like the movement crazy breeding for extreme angulation and the other ASL breed ring objectives...I like a functional structure and ability...but please do not mix up show style with HD.
> 
> Lee


I misspoke in a much previous post by using HD. HOWEVER, I do believe that the severe angulation bred into show line dogs will eventually cause various health issues. At the end of the day, it is not my preference and that is all. I, like you, prefer a "functional structure and ability" in a GSD...which also in my opinion is as close to the GSD standard as we can get. 


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## cliffson1

Well, least you acknowledge you misspoke....there's a lot of assertions made on the forum with little evidence except one's opinion to support them.


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## K.Creek

cliffson1 said:


> Well, least you acknowledge you misspoke....there's a lot of assertions made on the forum with little evidence except one's opinion to support them.


I have no issue with admitting my incorrect choice of wording. HD NO, hip issues yes. I will stand by that part for sure


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## Mrs.P

K.Creek said:


> I have no issue with admitting my incorrect choice of wording. HD NO, hip issues yes. I will stand by that part for sure


Lets be specific what hip/health issues are you referring to?


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## wolfstraum

what do you mean "hip issues"??? 

I agree with you that I find dogs who have severe angulation and movement unattractive - but it does not mean that they are physically unsound. These are two different things and dogs with working line structure can have HD and be unsound too....

Lee


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## K.Creek

wolfstraum said:


> what do you mean "hip issues"???
> 
> I agree with you that I find dogs who have severe angulation and movement unattractive - but it does not mean that they are physically unsound. These are two different things and dogs with working line structure can have HD and be unsound too....
> 
> Lee


First, I never said that working line GSDs are immune to HD. Injuries, illnesses, diseases, health concerns, etc. can happen with every type, style, breed of dog. My GSD has had an ear infection, eye infection, fractured metacarpal in the front left paw (trust me I am we'll aware of what injuries/illnesses can occur with any dog). 
Secondly, the SEVERE angulation ("roach back") in the rear of the GSD is stretching the ligaments and muscles in the legs. There is more pressure on the joints (jumping, even at small heights is impossible). It's places a dog in a position to be more prone to injury. The rear of the dog is being weakened. It has been said that the severe angulation eliminates working for a GSD, fine...but in some cases, eliminates walking. As I said earlier, I witnessed TWO GSDs who were having issues walking, simply walking! Now take a dog that is bred/designed that way and have them do a broad jump, or a simple high jump at the suggested height...maybe they will do it, probably will because their owner has asked them to, but you are at greater risk of injury. There are several articles on these topics, all over the web from breeders, veterinarians, etc.
Thirdly, imagine keeping all of your weight on your legs with bended knee. That is essentially what is occurring in the severe "roach back" GSD. Which in turn you can imagine doing it on your own causin discomfort, pain, etc. 
Lastly, as I said before the Germans essentially "engineered" this dog to perform intense tasks, incredible feats...jumping, running, tracking, etc. at super high levels to meet needs. I have looked, read and tried my best to understand the breed standard, which for the most part I do not believe is followed, and I feel that there is/was a reason this is a STANDARD, yes there ar variations and mild differences but to alter the breed in a way that prevents it from doing its intended tasks seems odd to me...I feel as GSD owners we should stand up for the standard of this beautiful breed. We are all on this site because we love GSDs, we own GSDs, we respect this animal. I am not bashing show line owners or breeders, I've read posts of show line owners whose animals ar still capable of working, GREAT! I am simply speaking on the topic of the SEVERE rear angulation, "roach back" that seems to be ruling the breed, show rings, etc.
This is the end of my soap box, I have included some good articles below on the standard of the GSD, movement, past and present GSDs...

http://pennvetwdc.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/9-Zink.pdf

Movement of the Working Dog

past to present in the german shepherd

Leerburg Dog Training | Balance Problems With the American Show German Shepherd


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## qbchottu

Hey K.Creek, do me a favor, and tell me your definition of "roach back"


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## Ltleo

I need to chime in with regards that you can not see HD with the "naked" eye, yes you will be able to see present conditions of HD. Also not with standing, no one or I should say "I" am not suggesting all show line or atypical roach, slant thoracic, trunk, and lumbar angular show or regional GSD present with HD. What my contention is that due to the rapid genetic changing of a first preceded "fault" has introduced an rapid onset of not only HD but elbow and suspected Myelopathy. Tis is due to drastic angular compression compacting unnatural fusion of laminated space, thus causing stress points.
Granted that with proper genetic selection one can breed with success, but due to such changes the standard ability over elongated high stress conditions will assuredly show fault and or hot points of weakness. 
One can see HD via gate, stride and malformation of lumbar apex. 
Not tying to pick a fight, just making a statement and yes I have had direct experiences with HD with the GSD and was obvious via naked eye. Yes you will need an x-ray to confirm officially


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## Xeph

> Somewhere along the way I believe a GSD was bred that had a severely sloping back,


Nope. In American lines what happened was Lance of Fran Jo showed up. The topline wasn't what they were after, it was the rear angulation. He was extremely angulated for his time, and apparently had a huge side gait.

And so it started.

People focus way too much on what the top line looks like and completely throw out the fact that it is the hindquarter that affects how the top line looks.

I have just about every type of GSD in my house. Like 'em all for different reasons.


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## K.Creek

qbchottu said:


> Hey K.Creek, do me a favor, and tell me your definition of "roach back"


I've attached images.


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## K.Creek

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## qbchottu

No - I asked you to explain to me what your definition of roach back is. What is your definition in words of what a "roach back" is?

Poorly captured images of extremes and pictures with distorted dimensions do not tell me anything.


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## DJ BEN

Hi K Creek. I noticed that you seem pretty passionate about the breed and I was just wondering how many German Shepherds you own, and if you own any where you got yours from? I am not here to bash or argue, I just noticed that you seem pretty well informed about the breed.


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## K.Creek

DJ BEN said:


> Hi K Creek. I noticed that you seem pretty passionate about the breed and I was just wondering how many German Shepherds you own, and if you own any where you got yours from? I am not here to bash or argue, I just noticed that you seem pretty well informed about the breed.


Incredibly knowledegable I am not, passionate I am. You will find many more people on this forum far more knowledgeable than myself. I have only owned one GSD prior to the one I own now. My mother-in-law has had several her entire life and since I have known her, owned/owns three. 
I have previously been around numerous dogs, pit bull, greyhound, mixes, etc. My brother had several pit bulls when I was younger and even into adulthood he and his wife had a wonderful female named Sadie (thats how I picked my GSDs name). That is another breed I am passionate about, and most people can guess why. 
My husbands family used to breed and train greyhounds when he was very young. They would breed and train for various families and owners all across the country including the owners of P's Rambling. We currently own a greyhound that we rescued, and she suffers from very bad breeding and unfortunately she will probably have to be euthanized much too young. (She is 5 now and has a very difficult time getting up and down due to swelling in her ankles). 
My current GSD is the only dog I have ever purchased from a breeder, all other dogs I have owned have been rescues or strays.
The first GSD I was around was Ben...he came from AlphaTex Kennels in Lubbock, TX (most ppl are familiar with the backstory there). He was incredibly sweet, very loyal and protective. Thankfully my mother-in-law kept a male from a litter Ben produced as he recently passed 

I hope you learn a lot on the forum as I have. People are always willing to answer questions and a lot of people go through or have similar problems and stories with their GSDs.


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## qbchottu

K.Creek: do you mind giving me a definition of "roach back"? You use this description very liberally - would like to see your exact definition.


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## DJ BEN

I thought I would just ask since I noticed that further back on this post you were asking if anyone had any info on the Kraftwerk K9 breeding program. As we do not own any of their dogs, we do use their training programs on our German Shepherds ourselves and have been very successful with the results. Wayne Curry really has some great training methods that I would recommend to anyone interested.


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## K.Creek

qbchottu said:


> No - I asked you to explain to me what your definition of roach back is. What is your definition in words of what a "roach back" is?
> 
> Poorly captured images of extremes and pictures with distorted dimensions do not tell me anything.


A. I do not believe that all images found on the internet on this subject can be classified as poor quality with distorted dimensions. Also, I am only speaking on the EXTREMES that reduces functionality and soundness in an animal, hence the EXTREME images.

B. I define a "roach back" as an animal whos spine is severely curved and angled downward causing discomfort in the animal along with reducing the animals ability to perform basic tasks including jumping (broad/high). I feel as if balance in the animal is also reduced. I consider the hind leg bones, muscles, joints all affected by this in breeding. Stretching and elonging of the rear ligaments and joints will reduce functionality and soundness in an animal. Not just GSDs, ANY animal. I raised, bred and showed hogs for many, many years along with the rest of my family and if you did that to ANY animal, you will have issues. 

C. This will be that last time I address this issue as I feel like I have sufficiently made my point. I am not trying to attack any one person, owner, type (show/working)...I am trying to defend the breed. I do not approve of the extremes you see nowadays, like the images above. If you would like to continue this debate/discussion feel free to PM me.


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## K.Creek

DJ BEN said:


> I thought I would just ask since I noticed that further back on this post you were asking if anyone had any info on the Kraftwerk K9 breeding program. As we do not own any of their dogs, we do use their training programs on our German Shepherds ourselves and have been very successful with the results. Wayne Curry really has some great training methods that I would recommend to anyone interested.


My current GSD is a Kraftwerk dog. Her sire is Oruger the Boom and her dam is Nixe vom Kraftwerk (I have not seen her on his site lately, she may have been sold). I am very happy with my GSD. She is very high energy, very high drive and very loyal. I have viewed some of his training methods and have worked with a trainer who trains a lot like him, and I think she does a good job. 
I can't speak much more on his training as I have not researched it in depth. I believe he is passionate about the GSD and ste GSd standard which I appreciate. If you would like to discuss anything further on the Kraftwerk kennel feel free to PM me, thanks!


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## qbchottu

K.Creek said:


> A. I do not believe that all images found on the internet on this subject can be classified as poor quality with distorted dimensions. Also, I am only speaking on the EXTREMES that reduces functionality and soundness in an animal, hence the EXTREME images.


I am not referring to all images, but simply the ones you chose to post - those posted are not fair examples and are meant to give inaccurate fuel to your case. NOBODY breeds FOR roach backs - they are critiqued and considered negative conformation in the show ring. They in no way represent the majority of these dogs. The first dog might have true structural problems, but on top of that, it is presented and stacked improperly - making the exaggeration worse. I've seen many a crusader post that exact picture - it's been recycled so many times I can be sure it will be posted every time someone wishes to make a biased point against "roach backs" - even more amusing when you actually learn the meaning of the term "roach back" and realize that the first topline is anything but roached. Yes, the topline is extreme and there are structural issues, but this particular picture in no way gives a fair and balanced view. You grabbed it off the internet to give weight to your shaky argument - and furthermore, it doesn't even show a roached dog. 

The second picture IS distorted and dimensions are purposely skewed. Does not illustrate or show me anything. Neither one these dogs are roached - as I thought before I asked you to clarify your definition of roach back (twice), you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "roach back". 

The third one pictured is at an odd camera angle with the dog moving and his head down. Where is the picture of the dog standing properly? Go take some movement shots of your esteemed Kraftwerk dog doing daily activities - I will assure you that your dog can also seem roached depending on camera angle and movement at the particular moment. Do these problems exist in showlines? Yes, but to purposely skew the facts to make a biased point is not a credible way to make your argument. 

Lets take the following scenario: Here is my working line pup working a puppy scent pad - you tell me if it is fair to call her roached just from this picture:









Standing normally:









Fair to call her roached from one picture? Nope, because it would be unfair to judge her structurally from that one picture. 



> B. I define a "roach back" as an animal whos spine is severely curved and angled downward causing discomfort in the animal along with reducing the animals ability to perform basic tasks including jumping (broad/high). I feel as if balance in the animal is also reduced. I consider the hind leg bones, muscles, joints all affected by this in breeding. Stretching and elonging of the rear ligaments and joints will reduce functionality and soundness in an animal. Not just GSDs, ANY animal. I raised, bred and showed hogs for many, many years along with the rest of my family and if you did that to ANY animal, you will have issues.


Just as I thought - your definition is incorrect and you do not have a proper understanding of the true definition of the words you are using to paint showlines in a derogatory light. You are throwing around a term that you clearly do not have an accurate understanding of. On top of that you are making sweeping assertions about health related to structural characteristics with no factual information to back up your weak causation argument. Btw - your history with hogs lends no greater credibility as to your understanding of GSD structure and health. Many of your HD assertions have already been repeatedly refuted by working and show line enthusiasts alike. 

Here is a good discussion on "roach back" versus other topline problems: 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/193960-examples-confirmation-3.html#post2624602

The first two examples you pulled off your google search could most accurately be described as a broken topline or hinge back - not roached. 



> C. This will be that last time I address this issue as I feel like I have sufficiently made my point. I am not trying to attack any one person, owner, type (show/working)...I am trying to defend the breed. I do not approve of the extremes you see nowadays, like the images above. If you would like to continue this debate/discussion feel free to PM me.


You have not made a point you seem to think you are making because you seem to be confusing the terms (roach vs. other topline issues), somehow linking these terms to hip dysplasia and joint issues, and using your tentative knowledge of these terms to cast doubt on the overall health of an entire line...

This is why I asked you to define what you meant by roach back!


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## Gwenhwyfair

This pic is from thread linked below and belongs to a member here. 

Now a lot of people (new to the GSD world, myself included, but learning) at first would look at this one picture of a working line dog say 'roached' back.

When you look at more pics and read the thread different story.....

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/188544-ruger-natural-stack-15-months-old.html


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## K.Creek

qbchottu said:


> I am not referring to all images, but simply the ones you chose to post - those posted are not fair examples and are meant to give inaccurate fuel to your case. NOBODY breeds FOR roach backs - they are critiqued and considered negative conformation in the show ring. They in no way represent the majority of these dogs. The first dog might have true structural problems, but on top of that, it is presented and stacked improperly - making the exaggeration worse. I've seen many a crusader post that exact picture - it's been recycled so many times I can be sure it will be posted every time someone wishes to make a biased point against "roach backs" - even more amusing when you actually learn the meaning of the term "roach back" and realize that the first topline is anything but roached. Yes, the topline is extreme and there are structural issues, but this particular picture in no way gives a fair and balanced view. You grabbed it off the internet to give weight to your shaky argument - and furthermore, it doesn't even show a roached dog.
> 
> The second picture IS distorted and dimensions are purposely skewed. Does not illustrate or show me anything. Neither one these dogs are roached - as I thought before I asked you to clarify your definition of roach back (twice), you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "roach back".
> 
> The third one pictured is at an odd camera angle with the dog moving and his head down. Where is the picture of the dog standing properly? Go take some movement shots of your esteemed Kraftwerk dog doing daily activities - I will assure you that your dog can also seem roached depending on camera angle and movement at the particular moment. Do these problems exist in showlines? Yes, but to purposely skew the facts to make a biased point is not a credible way to make your argument.
> 
> Lets take the following scenario: Here is my working line pup working a puppy scent pad - you tell me if it is fair to call her roached just from this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standing normally:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fair to call her roached from one picture? Nope, because it would be unfair to judge her structurally from that one picture.
> 
> Just as I thought - your definition is incorrect and you do not have a proper understanding of the true definition of the words you are using to paint showlines in a derogatory light. You are throwing around a term that you clearly do not have an accurate understanding of. On top of that you are making sweeping assertions about health related to structural characteristics with no factual information to back up your weak causation argument. Btw - your history with hogs lends no greater credibility as to your understanding of GSD structure and health. Many of your HD assertions have already been repeatedly refuted by working and show line enthusiasts alike.
> 
> Here is a good discussion on "roach back" versus other topline problems:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/193960-examples-confirmation-3.html#post2624602
> 
> The first two examples you pulled off your google search could most accurately be described as a broken topline or hinge back - not roached.
> 
> You have not made a point you seem to think you are making because you seem to be confusing the terms (roach vs. other topline issues), somehow linking these terms to hip dysplasia and joint issues, and using your tentative knowledge of these terms to cast doubt on the overall health of an entire line...
> 
> This is why I asked you to define what you meant by roach back!


As I said many times...not all show line owners and breeders. 
I appreciate all of your feedback, but I would not make a snide remark about my "esteemed Kraftwerk" dog...I have never been snide about your animals, which of what you posted seem beautiful and healthy. 
I stand by my argument.


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## LifeofRiley

Sometimes I think people on this forum would benefit from stepping back and actually listening to what people who are not deeply invested in the breed for years are saying and observing.

I, for one, remember seeing German Shepherds years before I adopted the one that I have now and thinking, “wow, what have they done with that breed?” This was not a stacking issue. These were dogs I observed in everyday life. I didn’t know there were different lines, etc… I just knew that what I was looking at didn’t seem natural. 

In fact, at the time I never imagined ever adopting a purebred anything and it fueled my negative opinions about breeding in general. I was happy when I joined this forum (after adopting and fostering GSDs) that people here were concerned about the "extremes" in breeding. It gave me a new (more positive) perspective about the breeding community - at least the ones represented on this forum. 

I often get asked what breed my dog is. I say, “he has a lot of German Shepherd in him.” Most people respond that well, yes, he looks like a German Shepherd but he walks normally and he’s white. I just nod and say, well, who knows what he is mixed with. Actually, the truth is that since he is from a shelter/rescue situation, I can’t say one way or the other. 

In fact, based on recent discussion on this forum, I have learned that he really isn’t a GSD because he is white and doesn’t have a pedigree


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## Liesje

Ew! What do those horrible pictures have to do with Kraftwerk dogs?!


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## K.Creek

qbchottu said:


> I am not referring to all images, but simply the ones you chose to post - those posted are not fair examples and are meant to give inaccurate fuel to your case. NOBODY breeds FOR roach backs - they are critiqued and considered negative conformation in the show ring. They in no way represent the majority of these dogs. The first dog might have true structural problems, but on top of that, it is presented and stacked improperly - making the exaggeration worse. I've seen many a crusader post that exact picture - it's been recycled so many times I can be sure it will be posted every time someone wishes to make a biased point against "roach backs" - even more amusing when you actually learn the meaning of the term "roach back" and realize that the first topline is anything but roached. Yes, the topline is extreme and there are structural issues, but this particular picture in no way gives a fair and balanced view. You grabbed it off the internet to give weight to your shaky argument - and furthermore, it doesn't even show a roached dog.
> 
> The second picture IS distorted and dimensions are purposely skewed. Does not illustrate or show me anything. Neither one these dogs are roached - as I thought before I asked you to clarify your definition of roach back (twice), you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "roach back".
> 
> The third one pictured is at an odd camera angle with the dog moving and his head down. Where is the picture of the dog standing properly? Go take some movement shots of your esteemed Kraftwerk dog doing daily activities - I will assure you that your dog can also seem roached depending on camera angle and movement at the particular moment. Do these problems exist in showlines? Yes, but to purposely skew the facts to make a biased point is not a credible way to make your argument.
> 
> Lets take the following scenario: Here is my working line pup working a puppy scent pad - you tell me if it is fair to call her roached just from this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standing normally:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fair to call her roached from one picture? Nope, because it would be unfair to judge her structurally from that one picture.
> 
> Just as I thought - your definition is incorrect and you do not have a proper understanding of the true definition of the words you are using to paint showlines in a derogatory light. You are throwing around a term that you clearly do not have an accurate understanding of. On top of that you are making sweeping assertions about health related to structural characteristics with no factual information to back up your weak causation argument. Btw - your history with hogs lends no greater credibility as to your understanding of GSD structure and health. Many of your HD assertions have already been repeatedly refuted by working and show line enthusiasts alike.
> 
> Here is a good discussion on "roach back" versus other topline problems:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/193960-examples-confirmation-3.html#post2624602
> 
> The first two examples you pulled off your google search could most accurately be described as a broken topline or hinge back - not roached.
> 
> You have not made a point you seem to think you are making because you seem to be confusing the terms (roach vs. other topline issues), somehow linking these terms to hip dysplasia and joint issues, and using your tentative knowledge of these terms to cast doubt on the overall health of an entire line...
> 
> This is why I asked you to define what you meant by roach back!


So I said I was going to let that die, but the more I think about it....

1. You have essentially taken my argument for wanting to abide by the GSD standard, for the improvement of GSD breeding and for identifying potential health risks in Severely angulated GSDs...and twisted into me saying ALL showline breeders breed awful, GSDs with health issues, genetic issues, etc. This discussion was brought on by a comment that I stated I do not care for the severe "sloped back" in GSDs (also using the term HD, which I corrected myself). Now I know that last part/post will be hard for you to find as you seem to be the type who reads what you want to read and sees what you want to see. I know it may elude yet again so look carefully.

2. Just as you say I used skewed or inappropriate images to show a "roach back", you chose images of what appear to be a structurally sound, healthy dog. Then decided to say that I would call it "roach backed" based on what you call poorly searched Google images (poor images or not, those GSDs did not look sound or healthy, debate that)...weird I didn't know we were discussing structurally sound dogs...so how about YOU do me a favor and verbally define and illustrate a "roach backed" GSD as my mental ability to does not allow me to comprehend such thing. Now brush up on your Google image searching skills as I would hate to see you use a photo previously used by a "crusader"

3. The point of my argument is that the quality of GSD breeding seems to be declining and pulling away from the GSD standard. Holy crap! It's not just showline breeders that breed dogs knowing they have health issues, working line breeders do it too!! IF YOU DON'T THINK THAT HAPPENS YOU ARE FAR MORE IGNORANT THAN YOU PAINTED ME OUT TO BE. What I want is a structurally sound, healthy GSD...if you have/own/breed structurally sound healthy GSDs I take no issue with you or your animals. Which looking at the two images you posted, looks like that dog falls in that group. 

4. Direct quote from a link I previously posted...I know, once again it may be difficult for you to find as you only seem to be able to find these blazing accusations of my ignorance.

"In some breeds, such as the German Shepherd Dog, extreme rear angulation can result in a lack of stability that negatively affects a dog’s performance. Moderate rear angulation provides the best of both worlds for working dogs." 

The above quote is the basis of my entire argument, that is all. No attack on you, your breeding program, your GSDs or show line breeders as a whole...adios amigo...

P.S. You're d*** right we are "crusaders" on bad breeding because we care about the health and success of this breed, now I have no more time to debate with you as I must got train with my "esteemed" Sadie...


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## Liesje

So is Kraftwerk a breeder that is placing more of a priority on health? I have no personal dealings with them so I would need to see plenty of proof of that just based on what I've read.


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## LifeofRiley

Liesje, it seems to me the conversation has migrated away from Kraftwerk and toward a general conversation on the state of the breed. 

I should add that, by my reading of this thread, this drift was due to posters taking issue with some observations made by the OP that led him/her to be more attracted to the structure of dogs offered by Kraftwerk.


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## K.Creek

Liesje said:


> So is Kraftwerk a breeder that is placing more of a priority on health? I have no personal dealings with them so I would need to see plenty of proof of that just based on what I've read.


I only own one GSD from them, and so far have had no major issues with her health. We are recently dealing with some allergies and trying to determine what they are and where they came from. Both Sadie's parents have excellent hip & elbow ratings and the sire is KKL1 and the dam was KKL2. 
I recently received a PM from a Kraftwerk owner, having a GSD that tested high risk for Degenerative Myelopathy, his dog came from the same sire as mine...that is not reassuring.
There are definitely positives and I have read TONS of negatives on Kraftwerk, I personally haven't experienced anything catastrophic or detrimental with mine. We are scheduled Friday for her preliminary hip and elbow X-rays, so I can determine a bit more there. I am also now going to do the genetic testing for DM, after receiving that message.
After the negative reviews I have read, and phone discussions (and the lack thereof) with Kraftwerk...I would have probably selected a different breeder. That does not mean I am not happy with my GSD. I just expected for the price I paid for Sadie I would have had more support from the breeder  this is all just based on my personal experience with my GSD from Kraftwerk.
Thanks for bringing us back on topic!


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## K.Creek

LifeofRiley said:


> Liesje, it seems to me the conversation has migrated away from Kraftwerk and toward a general conversation on the state of the breed.
> 
> I should add that, by my reading of this thread, this drift was due to posters taking issue with some observations made by the OP that led him/her to be more attracted to the structure of dogs offered by Kraftwerk.


Thanks! Hopefully we can stay on track now, I apologize to you all for the perpetuating the migration of topic


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## Liesje

LifeofRiley said:


> Liesje, it seems to me the conversation has migrated away from Kraftwerk and toward a general conversation on the state of the breed.
> 
> I should add that, by my reading of this thread, this drift was due to posters taking issue with some observations made by the OP that led him/her to be more attracted to the structure of dogs offered by Kraftwerk.


Well yes, everyone has a "type" that they are going to prefer, it rather goes without saying. The thing is there isn't really a "Kraftwerk" type structure. They are a pretty large scale breeder/importer/broker. Like a previous poster said, I like a lot of the DOGS they own in their kennel but would necessarily buy a puppy/green dog from them. Those dogs are good quality but those are lines that other kennels produced and built up. In their rather long list of breeding females, only two carry their kennel name. The rest were bred by other kennels. I prefer their structure over most others as well but again, doesn't necessarily mean I'd spend 3-5 times as I could just getting a dog from the same lines somewhere else or importing one myself. When you put up a kennel as an example of what you support just be aware of the full picture. The OP already stated if she had known more she might have purchased from somewhere else. To me that is more telling than saying one prefers a moderate structured GSD over an extreme one (most are going to agree).


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## Gwenhwyfair

In fairness to all who have responded - Below quoted was the problematic statement pointing specifically to show line dogs.

K Creek, There aren't any guarantees, as pointed out by Lee and others, working line dogs have problems too.

I made similiar missteps about HD, showlines and angulation too, so I am not trying to lecture. 

To a certain extent I have to say this is in part due to the GSD *probably* being one of the most complicated breeds there is with variations even among show AND working dogs that would lead the casual obsever to think they are different breeds.

My trainer was recently told his Czech line dog was NOT a German Shepherd.

I hope you are happy with your dog for many, many years but you know the divisions in this breed are deep and many. SL vs WL, ASL vs WGSL, Sport vs 'Real' working dogs, czech vs DDR, white coats vs everybody else.... and I'm sure there's more I haven't stumbled across yet.

I am sharing this with you since this is your first GSD and when one speaks of 'saving' or crusading for this breed the difficulty is in choosing which 'type' to save.....





K.Creek said:


> I misspoke in a much previous post by using HD. HOWEVER, I do believe that the severe angulation bred into show line dogs will eventually cause various health issues. At the end of the day, it is not my preference and that is all. I, like you, prefer a "functional structure and ability" in a GSD...which also in my opinion is as close to the GSD standard as we can get.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## K.Creek

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In fairness to all who have responded - Below quoted was the problematic statement pointing specifically to show line dogs.
> 
> K Creek, There aren't any guarantees, as pointed out by Lee and others, working line dogs have problems too.
> 
> I made similiar missteps about HD, showlines and angulation too, so I am not trying to lecture.
> 
> To a certain extent I have to say this is in part due to the GSD *probably* being one of the most complicated breeds there is with variations even among show AND working dogs that would lead the casual obsever to think they are different breeds.
> 
> My trainer was recently told his Czech line dog was NOT a German Shepherd.
> 
> I hope you are happy with your dog for many, many years but you know the divisions in this breed are deep and many. SL vs WL, ASL vs WGSL, Sport vs 'Real' working dogs, czech vs DDR, white coats vs everybody else.... and I'm sure there's more I haven't stumbled across yet.
> 
> I am sharing this with you since this is your first GSD and when one speaks of 'saving' or crusading for this breed the difficulty is in choosing which 'type' to save.....


I appreciate your response...I should've have included "some" in the problematic statement, but I did include severe...not mild, moderate or flat out healthy animals. I have also done my best to correct my misuse of some words. 

I also know that I will make no difference on this breed in the grand scheme. What I say is only my opinion and there is no way I can "change the world" so to speak, and that's ok. I cannot save any type of the breed or the breed as a whole either. I will stand up for what I feel is right. I will state opinions on the matter and maybe a few will catch on or agree. I will continue to do my best in raising and caring for my GSD and maintaining her health. Health issues are everywhere, every type, every breed and we as pet owners can only do our best. That's all I ask for.

I once again apologize for my part in moving this thread in an entirely different direction. 


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's all about learning, one thing I figured out fairly quickly was this breed will humble you with it's depth, history and complexity (not to mention addictive qualities!! ).

Peace! eace:


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