# Color Genetics question-



## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

Can Solid blacks and Bi colours be born in the same litter?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yes


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

of course! depending on the color of the parents! 


Lee


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

Thank you very much. I had a debate with someone telling me absolutely not.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The genetic dominance order for color is: Sable - black/tan - bicolor - black.

This chart will help you to see which combinations can have black and bicolor in a litter.
http://www.ehretgsd.com/GSDcolorGenes.pdf


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

take a dog who is bi-color - his parents are bi color and black...he is dominant for bi-colr and recessive for black

Breed to a sable dog who is from a black parent and a sable parent

Dog 1 genes - bi color and black
Dog 2 genes - sable and black

You can get

1. sable with black recessive
2. sable with bi color recessive
3. black
4. bi color with black recessive


You will not know what recessive the sables carry until they are bred - you will know the recessive on 4 because if it carried sable, it would be sable

Easy???


 

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How about breeding a Sable that carries BI to a blanket black/tan that carries black and you get all blanket b/t. Guess what recessive they MUST carry.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LOL LOL LOL You would think BLack! But they got the dam's BT recessive - no telling if they got the dominant or the recessive from the male!!! so they could be Bl x BT or BT x BT 

but BT is BT - pattern is another factor

think dogs are complicated??? Try appaloosas!

Lee


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Is Bi a color or a pattern?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

lhczth said:


> How about breeding a Sable that carries BI to a blanket black/tan that carries black and you get all blanket b/t. Guess what recessive they MUST carry.


Bi of course.

If they inherited anything but Bi from the Sable/Bi parent they wouldn't be black and tans, they'd be sables.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

ahh - Chris - re read Lisa's post - the sire is BT - Black - so they could be BT recessive from dam and Black recessive from sire!

The only BT I got from Basha was from 2 sables! I know she has black recessive...so male carried BT recessive - Gryphon therefore HAD to be BT as you need 2 black recessives to get black from 2 sables - he got recessive BT from sire, and recessive Black from dam.

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lee, the sire was SABLE/BI. Dam is BT/Black. The pups are all BT so they, like Chris said, must carry BI. They inherited mom's BT and dad's BI.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Samba said:


> Is Bi a color or a pattern?


I believe that bi-color is a color. But blanket black and tan is a pattern of black and tan.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I do not believe I have ever seen that bi-color is a separate gene from Black/Brown - it is a pattern from what I remember reading - I have seen bi's and blankets in teh same litter from a black/tan male and a black female...my new import pup has a bi-color and a blanket littermate....black dam, blanket sire.

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes -- I have a litter of 4 (should have pictures soon).
born June 16 . One female solid black, one female very dark sable , one male genuine bicolour , one male sable.
Both parents are sable. Both parents have solid black in their background and have produced it before. The sire has produced two solid blacks and two bicolours before.
sire Carmspack Cubby - German Shepherd Dog dam CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German Shepherd Dog

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> yes -- I have a litter of 4 (should have pictures soon).
> born June 16 . One female solid black, one female very dark sable , one male genuine bicolour , one male sable.
> Both parents are sable. Both parents have solid black in their background and have produced it before. The sire has produced two solid blacks and two bicolours before.
> sire Carmspack Cubby - German Shepherd Dog dam CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German Shepherd Dog
> ...


I don't understand. If they produced a black puppy, both sire and dam would have to have a black recessive. If they are both sable, then the genes they could pass down are sable and black. So the pups could be black or sable, but I don't understand how they could be bi-color. 

I understood that bi-color is not a pattern, but a color. But even if it were a pattern of black and tan, I do not understand how two sables carrying the black recessive could produce it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> yes -- I have a litter of 4 (should have pictures soon).
> born June 16 . One female solid black, one female very dark sable , one male genuine bicolour , one male sable.
> Both parents are sable. Both parents have solid black in their background and have produced it before. The sire has produced two solid blacks and two bicolours before.
> sire Carmspack Cubby - German Shepherd Dog dam CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German Shepherd Dog
> ...


hmmm - this one puzzles me....

if there are solid black pups - both genes are black...therefore there is no way you can have a bi or a BT - that is a 3rd color gene...

either the black is an extremely dark, true black sable - or the bi is!!! LOL LOL 

or another male got her her when you were not looking and there are 2 sires over the litter...

Lee


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I did not think of that. I suppose that is possible then.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

they do.
The sire Cubby has Carmspack Kilo. His full littermate sister Katiana , owned by Linda Shaw , was a solid black. She produced solid black youngsters. Linda has two solid black grandsons at the moment .
Look into the background of Kilo, who produced a few blacks and bicolours - and you will see Golf Ritterberg (black) Pushka haus Himpel (black) . 
Cubby's dam side - Queenie Antverpa black.

Carmina Sitting Bull has Jago Lindenhalle. Here is a page with his progeny and grands Pictures of V Jago von der Lindenhalle progeny - German Shepherd Dog
I've had him before in a pedigree and there were a few blacks in that litter.
Linda is a stickler for defining something . A bicolour should have the tar heel and the penciling on its toes. There are melanistic black and tans , like an extended blanket - apparently a different gene mechanism.
I'm sure she'll cover the topic on her new website.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

The two dogs mated to produce my dog were 
Cheyenne von der Ost Kuste - German Shepherd Dog who is a black and tan and

Dux Valov Dvor - German Shepherd Dog who is a solid black. 

In the litter there were solid blacks, What I call bi colours and a black and tan. I was told that black and Bi colours cannot be in the same litter.. THe genetics portions of breedings kill me, so confusing!


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Jgk2383 said:


> The two dogs mated to produce my dog were
> Cheyenne von der Ost Kuste - German Shepherd Dog who is a black and tan and
> 
> Dux Valov Dvor - German Shepherd Dog who is a solid black.
> ...


I know Dux was just mated with Geena Bady-Ron. They produced 4 sables and 4 blacks, which if I am reading the Punnett chart right is exactly what would be expected.

Dux Valov Dvor - German Shepherd Dog

Geena Bady-Ron - German Shepherd Dog

So I would guess that means Dux is recessive for Black, and Geena carries a black as recessive. Right?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You wouldn't say Dux is recessive for black-- black is always recessive. Dux just has two copies of the recessive gene. Since Geena is sable but produced black puppies, she carries one copy of the gene.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Emoore said:


> You wouldn't say Dux is recessive for black-- black is always recessive. Dux just has two copies of the recessive gene. Since Geena is sable but produced black puppies, she carries one copy of the gene.


You wanna know how I know I am getting older (and dumber)? Stuff like this used to come naturally to me. I didn't have to think on it to understand it....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If I can send an email to someone with an attachment showing the pups together on Aug 7 , which shows a bicolour and black and two sables could they share with the forum . I don't know how to get it from my email to here. Just some pictures snapped by my sister when we had one of my Sunday -every-one-descends-on-my-house-days. 

The sire is Cubby , who in his first litter produced sables and a bicolour (coat) (Mathias) who only has tan to his wrist, and back feet , and Stark who started out as Carmspack Stark - German Shepherd Dog and ended up as Buffalo Police K-9 Dog Gets Job Done | WKBW News 7: News, Sports, Weather | Buffalo, NY | Local

Second litter same sire same dam Cubby x Rachel (pedigree provided above). Very dark black sable male "Griffin" and two black dogs.

Recent and last litter . Cubby sire x dam Carmina Sitting Bull CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German Shepherd Dog

Black recessives in Cubby coming through from Marko Cellerland, Kilo's Carmspack Kilo - German Shepherd Dog Golf Ritterberg , Pushka haus Himpel etc. (also on Linda Kuhnhof) Held Ritterberg through JenAgers Unic -- Queenie Antverpa , Hassan , etc.

Black recessives coming through from Carmina CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German Shepherd Dog , Frei Gugge, and have a good look at Jago Lindenhalle . He is ???? 

I bring him to attention because I had a female Carmspack Ivana Arek aus Raetia - German Shepherd Dog who was the subject of many a vigourous discussion between Linda and myself, and a topic on the euro list for those members here on the forum. Of course this is going back almost 10 years. Ivana was a black , born a black , registered a black. One day when Ivana was around 4 or 5 years Linda was stacking her in a pose , admiring her structure. She then pointed out that the dog had a few brown hairs between her toes , front feet, and a few scattered hairs of brown on the inside of her front legs. No more than a dozen on each leg. So the debate was is she a black ? is she a black and tan? How in the world do you register her as a black and tan (if that was her genetics) and trot out a dog that is as black as anthracite coal . You would be accused of misrepresentation. Ivana produced blacks. Now the hair which was "not black" was not present until the dog was much older, having clipped nails and wiped feet many a time , never saw any.
Later Linda after a few years of delving into the genetics of colour did agree that she was a black . I am sure these subjects will be covered in the new web site. 

So look at Jago . Now look at Jago progeny Pictures of V Jago von der Lindenhalle progeny - German Shepherd Dog

I did a breeding with Jago Lindenhalle that resulted in Derrick (SAR , Felony 1 etc) and in that litter there were solid blacks -- 

In this litter born to Cubby and Carmina. 4 pups , 2 females one a solid black , one a dark sable. The dark sable when born , I thought was a black , but within a week or two was evident to be a sable , honeyed out , till around 7 or 8 weeks and now as her new coat is coming in the face is getting darker, the belly hair is black and the area over her spine is black -- . 
The males, bi colour , and sable. The bicolour when born had brown toes . As he grew the brown extended as far as his "wrist " and "ankle" , face and everything black. When he was around 7 weeks the tan went a little beyond the pastern . Now at 10 weeks whatever tan he had on his forelegs is hard to see as the new hair coming in is black. So once again only his foot is brown with black penciling on his toes and and tar heels at the hind. Running around or away from you the only way to distinguish him from the black female is the little tan brown circle around his vent .

I hope to get good stacked pictures when Linda visits on Monday or Tuesday. 

The breeding by the way was done at a vets clinic , natural tie , so that we could collect Cubby's sperm for prosperity. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Jgk2383 said:


> The two dogs mated to produce my dog were
> Cheyenne von der Ost Kuste - German Shepherd Dog who is a black and tan and
> 
> Dux Valov Dvor - German Shepherd Dog who is a solid black.
> ...


Have you seen pictures of the "bicolor" puppy as an adult? Does it still have tarheels and toemarks? It might be a "blanket back" saddle and look like a bicolor as a puppy.

Black and bicolor puppies *can* be in the same litter, for sure. But there are some combinations that make a whole lot less sense unless the blacks are really extremely melanistic bicolors (e.g., blacks with "bleedthrough). Or unless we go by the theory supported by some recent studies indicating that saddle and bicolor are actually caused by the same gene (both a^s) and that bicolor is created by some sort of modifier. I'm not convinced yet that these studies are conclusive--still considering it. The research is published: A SINE Insertion Causes the Black-and-Tan and Saddle Tan Phenotypes in Domestic Dogs

However, even with this new paradigm, you will often not get bicolors, blacks, and black-tans in one litter with one parent being a black and tan and one being solid black. 

bicolor: black-tan/black + 1 or 2 modifying genes
"blanket" back: black-tan/black + no modifiers
"blanket" back: black-tan/black-tan + 1 modifiers
saddle back: black-tan/black-tank + 0 modifiers
black: black/black + 0, 1, 2 modifiers

We can assume that the black-tan parent has the black gene because there are black puppies in the litter. This means the black-tan parent does not have the modifier gene because if she did, she would BE a bicolor. We don't know how many modifier genes the black parent has, but it either has 0, 1, or 2. So possible puppy options are

Black dog has 0 modifiers:
black-tan/black +0 modifiers = blanket back
black/black => black dog
(no bicolors in this litter)

Black parent has 1 modifier:
black-tan/black + 0 modifier = blanket back
black-tan/black + 1 modifier = bicolor
black/black = black 
(bingo! all 3 patterns!)

Black parent has 2 modifiers:
black-tan/black +1 modifier (because every puppy will get 1 modifier from the black parent) = bicolor
black/black + 1 modifier = black
(no blanket backs in this litter)


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> hmmm - this one puzzles me....
> 
> if there are solid black pups - both genes are black...therefore there is no way you can have a bi or a BT - that is a 3rd color gene...
> 
> ...


See my previous post.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

mmm... interesting theory of the modifiers. I'm going to read carefully that article later.

Now. What about the theory that black sables are to sables like bi-colors are to black and tans? It would make even more sense with this theory. One, but not the only, place where I've read about it is on the Linda Shaw site.

Akela comes from a litter of a sable sire and a bi-color dam. 3 pups are sabls with different grades of dark and 1 is a black sable, recognizable as one from his first days.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Catu said:


> mmm... interesting theory of the modifiers. I'm going to read carefully that article later.
> 
> Now. What about the theory that black sables are to sables like bi-colors are to black and tans? It would make even more sense with this theory.


Yes, the melanistic modifier would definitely help explain the difference in appearance between different shades of sables, such as sable with a black recessive versus a "black sable."


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Reading this is so interesting, exotic birds carry sex linked color genetics....just think if the canine world did! 
Most parrots are hard to sex visually, so in the nest you know what you have according to color depending on the genetic make up of the parents.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Someone told me that their sable bitch had a litter with sables, blacks and bicolors. Is that possible in one litter?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Samba said:


> Someone told me that their sable bitch had a litter with sables, blacks and bicolors. Is that possible in one litter?


It depends. If she was bred to bicolor with the black recessive, for sure. 

It also depends on whether bicolor is its own allele on the A (agouti) locus or whether is the result of an interaction between a modifying gene and the tanpoint/saddle allele.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh, I see now it would be quite possible if bred to a bi carrying black. I will have to see if I can find out the sire's color.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BlackthornGSD said:


> It also depends on whether bicolor is its own allele on the A (agouti) locus or whether is the result of an interaction between a modifying gene and the tanpoint/saddle allele.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have pictures of the litter of my four at one week of age showing one light absorbing jet black , a dark sable, a reddish sable and a bicolour -- with just a little bit of a visible mit and sock. If someone can tell me how to make an attachment to post it here or let me send it to them for them to share .
Carmen


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Carmen, the pups you have are out of two sables. It takes a black gene from each parent to get blacks, correct? So the sables have to be sable/black genotype? Where do those bi colors come from??


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Samba said:


> Carmen, the pups you have are out of two sables. It takes a black gene from each parent to get blacks, correct? So the sables have to be sable/black genotype? Where do those bi colors come from??


Ohh. I missed the "both parents are sable" previously --obviously, I should have read more carefully.

Umm. Yeah, if both parents are sable and there are black puppies, it should be impossible to get any pups that are not sable or black. 

The only possibility I can come up with, assuming all pups are from the same same parents, is that the black isn't truly a recessive black but rather is a hyper-melanistic bicolor. That would also explain the occurrence of a red sable in the litter.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Color's interesting!

In addition to Carmen's litter, I also have that friend with three "colors" in a litter with blacks. I know the dam was sable.

I have heard that bi is often associated with black. I never undertood exactly what that meant either. But, I do see bicolors often in my friend's kennels that carry a lot of black.

Just to confuse myself further, I am trying to sort out Sheltie colors and that merle modifier tonight!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Samba said:


> Just to confuse myself further, I am trying to sort out Sheltie colors and that merle modifier tonight!


I thought merle was easy because it's dominant. And it can overlay anything (except white). No?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Three colors is ok, I mean dog 1 sable, black recessive, dog 2 black and tan, black recessive:

You can get sables, blacks, black and tans. 

The problem with Carmen's litter is that both sire and dam are sables. if their are black pup present, both sire and dam must have the genes, sable and black. This would allow only sables and blacks to be present, and not bi-colors. If one of the sables is actually a bi-color, then you could have sables, blacks and bi's in the litter. So it is very confusing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cubby sable , his sire LeRoy , sable , his dam Alza , sable .

Carmina Sitting Bull (straight off her AKC registration) sable, from her SV pink papers "grau" (sable).

Breeding done at vet's office so male could be collected . 

Carmen


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

selzer said:


> Three colors is ok, I mean dog 1 sable, black recessive, dog 2 black and tan, black recessive:
> 
> You can get sables, blacks, black and tans.
> 
> The problem with Carmen's litter is that both sire and dam are sables. if their are black pup present, both sire and dam must have the genes, sable and black. This would allow only sables and blacks to be present, and not bi-colors. If one of the sables is actually a bi-color, then you could have sables, blacks and bi's in the litter. So it is very confusing.


I wasn't suggesting that one of the sables was bicolor instead of sable, but rather that one had tanpoint (black-tan or saddle or bicolor) as a recessive instead of black (or bicolor as a recessive instead of black). Then the puppy color option would be sable/black; sable/tanpoint, tanpoint/black. Now perhaps one of the tanpoint/black pups has two melanistic modifiers (and perhaps some other element that increases black pigmentation) and appears solid black, but one of the other tanpoint/black pups has only one melanistic modifier and appears bicolor. 

I don't know that this is genetically possible, but it is just about the only way I can think that you'd get "blacks" and bicolors and sables out of two sable parents.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, actually the Sheltiei colors seem easier to me than some of the GSD genes.

Merle is a modifier than can overlay the other colors except white, yes, best I can tell. So you can have merle over a sable, a tricolor or a bi-black in the Shelties. I like the merle. But, my GSD friend finds the color "messy". LOL. I just got a bi-blue Sheltie which is actually a black and white dog carrying merle.


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

I own the "bicolour" she is 6 months old just about so who knows what will happen as she matures. She is completely black except for tan under her tail, and her legs with black heels and wrists and black toe stenciling. I will post up a picture.



BlackthornGSD said:


> Have you seen pictures of the "bicolor" puppy as an adult? Does it still have tarheels and toemarks? It might be a "blanket back" saddle and look like a bicolor as a puppy.
> 
> Black and bicolor puppies *can* be in the same litter, for sure. But there are some combinations that make a whole lot less sense unless the blacks are really extremely melanistic bicolors (e.g., blacks with "bleedthrough). Or unless we go by the theory supported by some recent studies indicating that saddle and bicolor are actually caused by the same gene (both a^s) and that bicolor is created by some sort of modifier. I'm not convinced yet that these studies are conclusive--still considering it. The research is published: A SINE Insertion Causes the Black-and-Tan and Saddle Tan Phenotypes in Domestic Dogs
> 
> ...


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