# Dog bites lover boy.



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

This escalated rather quickly. Title says don't kiss a guard dog. I say don't kiss any dog. Wish I knew the back story on this. And I wish the camera person kept it on the dog. Also wish I knew why someone was laughing so. 
https://youtu.be/bqpRRGo-cuc


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Holy Crap ... that was fast and sudden! I guess that was a hard lesson learned! Most likely not his dog????


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

The signs are there from our angle. The handler maybe couldn't see it. The dog didn't seem comfortable with the man over him and once he put his hand on his neck and attempted to kiss the dog that put him over the edge. I'm betting this is a dog with some behavioral issues and they were working on them. Idk why he thought this was a good idea. I can't figure out why that lady is laughing in the background tho. 

This kind of reminds me of that police dog that snapped at the reporter - you can find that on YouTube pretty easy.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Yep, from our angle the signs were clear. The person laughing was probably like he's gonna bite you. Trainer was probably like bull**** I am the alpha he knows that. She's like he's gonna bite you. Then he bit him. She's like hahaha how's that alpha thing working. 
I have seen that reporter being bitten also. Both are good videos to watch from an educational point of view.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that was a redirect --- dog had probably been in a training session which had just finished .

dog still sitting in precision heel position -- so still keyed up 

there is another dog running free.

you have to be super fast in freezing the frames to catch this .

pause at the very very beginning -- the trainer has something in his right hand and he is paying attention to the device 

I would say that a training session has just ended -- man pleased - other trainer or handlers in room - probably more footage , other perspectives of this training session .

so man probably wants to take a selfy after session

he is distracted 

but there is another dog running loose , in that frame , directly behind him 

the dog beside the handler is distracted , focused on this other dog 

man swings his right hand across chest -- the dog behind him , which looked like it would 
have come forward to contact -- but dashes off 

when the other dog moves away "his" dog looses some of his body rigidity , body tension

man focused on the other dog 

notice though that while man is focusing on other dog -- his dog has changed body posture
tense again , rubber neck - focusing on something to his left near distance 

now I think man was pleased , possibly relieved , with his dogs self control and gets all human and 
gives him and embrace and a peck 

dog is hyper stimulated -- with or without a reason -- can't cap and so at that moment he goes hair trigger
and discharges on nearest target 

all this within the frames from 00 to 07

I don't believe that there is a she -- that is hysterical nervous laughter -- a guy


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I could be wrong but sounds like a girl laughing. I also thought that the dog just got pissed. When the guy wraps arm around dog and leans in the dog shows teeth then turns and bites. 
The device in his hand at the very beginning is a toy. Second dog stops and waits for the toy. Trainer throws toy. Dog chases toy. Dog in sit notices toy and other dog chasing, looks at something to his left even tilts head slightly to focus for just a second. Guy wraps his left arm around dog dog tenses up then then trainer leans in to give the dog a kiss. Dog says you crossed the boundary and attacks him. Not a redirect. Dog bites then turns to follow through. Put your cursor on the time bar at the six second mark and let it play to nine seconds then click mouser to replay from six second mark.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

In the comments section of the video someone wrote:
*Okay people here's what happened. This man didn't get bit because of a "kiss." He got bit simply because he touched the dog's neck much like he was going in for a choke hold, which guard dogs are trained to react to. Never touch a dogs neck the way this man did.﻿

*Is that a plausible explanation?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> In the comments section of the video someone wrote:
> *Okay people here's what happened. This man didn't get bit because of a "kiss." He got bit simply because he touched the dog's neck much like he was going in for a choke hold, which guard dogs are trained to react to. Never touch a dogs neck the way this man did.﻿
> 
> *Is that a plausible explanation?


That makes sense to me, in effect it was a trained repose??? In effect the dog started to relax and then ... Oh ... I'm back on deck?? So not a response "Out of the Blue" as it were??

I'd have to say that seems like it would be a muzzled required for vet visit dogs or is that just a given for bite trained dogs??? Or do you just find vets with lighting quick reflexes ... I don't know???


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

This video was discussed at length in one of my animal facebook groups. Apparently this guy trains guard dogs to target the face and neck. Not shoulders and upper arms like lots of Ring videos. Literally the face and neck, complete with bite protection.

So, why did the dog go for his face?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

too many incidents that are known about where keyed-malinois lash out with much collaterol damage.
including other officers and nearby citizens - sometimes just traveling through a crowd 

that includes local LE who spent time and money settling wrongful bites -- so no more Mals

I don't buy the "training" thing --


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

What I'd consider good malinois breeders breed for clearheaded behavior, selectively, but it is a tricky business and you do need to select your breeding stock carefully. My female comes out of clearheaded dogs, I trust her around children, 100%, and she's been a demo dog in school groups. She is FCI KNPV malinois. 

Just like in GSD there are lines of dogs, and then there are individual within those lines, and it is easy to breed insane dogs if you do not know what you are doing when it comes to malinois.

That said, I have one male malinois who is very civil, a one-handler animal. But he is safe in crowds, because of training and early work. He is also 100% safe with me- he is a big floppy sweetheart, and enjoys and seeks out hugs and kisses. In fact, every one of my malinois loves lots of physical affection and has never, not once, turned or snapped- that's not even something I worry about at all. But I do a ton of early handling with them, and spend time training and working them outside of high drive situations. I make a point to take malinois pups out and just let them hang out and "be". Learn how to relax. 

I want to be very clear- biting faces is NOT a malinois breed trait. In fact what first drew me to malinois was their clear-headedness and ability to compartmentalize going from extreme high drive, to being social and friendly with the watching crowd. Some don't like this in malinois, some do, but I have selected for dogs that carry this clear-headed trait because I see no use in a dog who is not clearheaded enough to be out in public. 

I really don't like this trainer. What a fool. He should get out of malinois and yesterday.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> What I'd consider good malinois breeders breed for clearheaded behavior, selectively, but it is a tricky business and you do need to select your breeding stock carefully. My female comes out of clearheaded dogs, I trust her around children, 100%, and she's been a demo dog in school groups. She is FCI KNPV malinois.
> 
> Just like in GSD there are lines of dogs, and then there are individual within those lines, and it is easy to breed insane dogs if you do not know what you are doing when it comes to malinois.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks ...it's not really about the Breed as much as it is how that guys chooses to train dogs then?? Most likely ... he has other breeds he has trained capable of doing the same thing??? That sounds ... exciting??? 

If a PPD/LE dog is not safe in public ... there not of that much value in my view. But I don't know as it's not my thing.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Whiteshepherds said:


> In the comments section of the video someone wrote:
> *Okay people here's what happened. This man didn't get bit because of a "kiss." He got bit simply because he touched the dog's neck much like he was going in for a choke hold, which guard dogs are trained to react to. Never touch a dogs neck the way this man did.﻿
> 
> *Is that a plausible explanation?


No, that is not a plausible explanation.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

carmspack said:


> too many incidents that are known about where keyed-malinois lash out with much collaterol damage.
> including other officers and nearby citizens - sometimes just traveling through a crowd
> 
> that includes local LE who spent time and money settling wrongful bites -- so no more Mals
> ...


I agree with Carmen's assessment of the situation. That was a redirect bite, out of frustration.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"In the comments section of the video someone wrote:
Okay people here's what happened. This man didn't get bit because of a "kiss." He got bit simply because he touched the dog's neck much like he was going in for a choke hold, which guard dogs are trained to react to. Never touch a dogs neck the way this man did.﻿

Is that a plausible explanation?
No, that is not a plausible explanation.

never heard of that --- not cred ible --- or some other sort of ible 

had several of my dogs placed in US maximum prisons - one had several awards and a two page write up in their industry in-house magazine "All Points Bulletin"

injuries come to the dog by concussion -- blow to head , blow to chest , heart side , to blow the dogs heart rhythm - heart attack on the spot .

never heard of choke holds .-- 

never heard of training for face bites . You go for the core - knock the man off balance . Head too mobile - esquive central -- too small an area, to little to grip -- as for the necks , ever seen some of the neckless wonders that some of the muzzle freaks can be ? Again a useless small target .

dog impacts to knock the wind out of the guy , get him on the ground, disable limbs which can be used offensively with or without weapons .

the guy could have been standing beside his dog and the dog could have reacted , without the hug and kiss , just out redirect and got a leg bite or a chomp to the waist . 

the face was close . 

cdwoodcox - I see , put the video on full screen - it was a kong toy "The device in his hand at the very beginning is a toy. Second dog stops and waits for the toy. Trainer throws toy. Dog chases toy"


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

The dog doesn't look comfortable at any point in the video to me. Ears are kinda back, panting, jumpy head movement, then when the trainer pulled the dog by the neck and put his face on him he just set the dog off. I don't think this dog should've been handled this way ever and unfortunately it'll probably be a hit to mallinois as a breed. I saw at least one comment suggesting the dog be put down.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

carmspack said:


> "In the comments section of the video someone wrote:
> Okay people here's what happened. This man didn't get bit because of a "kiss." He got bit simply because he touched the dog's neck much like he was going in for a choke hold, which guard dogs are trained to react to. Never touch a dogs neck the way this man did.﻿
> 
> Is that a plausible explanation?
> ...


 carm, would a redirect bite be more of a quick nip? This dog actually latched and positioned himself to hold the bite. To me it looked like more of a defensive bite


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

thegooseman90 said:


> carm, would a redirect bite be more of a quick nip? This dog actually latched and positioned himself to hold the bite. To me it looked like more of a defensive bite


Let's ask Slamdunc if a redirect bite is a quick nip... :wink2:- I think he's had more experience with them than just about anyone else on this board.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

It was a genuine question, because there seems to be a lot of variation in the way we view things here. But from what I can see elsewhere online it doesn't have to be just a quick nip and most people associate it with reactivity. 

What I always called a redirected bite was a quick nip, out of confusion mostly. For instance, back when I was hunting, I could be handling a caught hog and in the excitement one of the dogs might grab my hand. I didn't take it as aggression or a defensive bite and when they realized it was me they let it go right away. It would happen sometimes if I had to put a couple of staples in a wound too, but as soon as they realized it was me they stopped. And this was always a split second thing. They never grabbed and really tried to hurt me like that dog did.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Carmen said this about redirect "
dog is hyper stimulated -- with or without a reason -- can't cap and so at that moment he goes hair trigger and discharges on nearest target" end quote. 
I have never trained a dog to attack people just limited time in IPO. However, my dogs used to redirect onto me very frequently. It was always a bite or unload just to release on anything. Never an aggressive attack with follow through. 
Using tug to build drive during obedience tease just a little too long and dog can't hold out any longer has to bite something just to release. So since I was the only thing a leashed dog could release on I took bites. 
Same with my young male. Decoy and me using pillow to try and build his protection drive. Hoping he would just let go and not be so nervous or reserved. Decoy makes him miss a couple times. I am there holding leash, dog unloads on me. No follow through just a quick painful bite that is why I thought it wasn't a redirect. Now it is possible that we are talking a little different language. Maybe it is different in personal protection dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

everything in the video happens with lightning speed .

dog bares teeth - doesn't stop there - launches at guy's eyebrow -- (everything else is off camera) but
mere seconds later handler is standing to the back of the room , left arm rigid , shortened up on leash -- dog
still keyed with intense focus on the people at the opposite end of the room.

the dog has a very short fuse . The hug and peck -- not a good idea -- guy didn't read his dog . Dog didn't give any warning growl . 
Bet this dog has a "history" . 

the hysterical laughter - instead of noises of surprise and shock -- might indicate that that the dog had a reputation.

why was it on video?
maybe this is a difficult dog and the handler takes up the challenge with some swagger -- hot-dogs it a bit - by adding the extra elements of loose dog and a toy -- showing off the control and mastery of the beast - and then in a spontaneous moment does the hug and peck -- and bam -- he , the handler , is brought down a peg or three , so he joins all the others afterall .

does someone in the video call him "general" -- ?


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

carmspack said:


> everything in the video happens with lightning speed .
> 
> dog bares teeth - doesn't stop there - launches at guy's eyebrow -- (everything else is off camera) but
> mere seconds later handler is standing to the back of the room , left arm rigid , shortened up on leash -- dog
> ...


 my thoughts exactly. I'm betting the dog has a history and to prove his rehab he tossed the toy to show obedience and then attempted the kiss to show he tamed the beast. Little did he know... very bad job reading the dog. But in my opinion it's better that it happened to a cocky "trainer" and at least he wasn't dumb enough to try and prove his point with a kid or something


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
too many incidents that are known about where keyed-malinois lash out with much collaterol damage.
including other officers and nearby citizens - sometimes just traveling through a crowd 

that includes local LE who spent time and money settling wrongful bites -- so no more Mals

I don't buy the "training" thing --*




Sunsilver said:


> I agree with Carmen's assessment of the situation. That was a redirect bite, out of frustration.


This was not a redirect bite out of frustration. 

Does anyone think the same thing couldn't happen with a GSD? There are plenty of videos out there of people getting into a GSD's face and getting bit. 

The signs were there and it is never a good idea to dominate, put your face in a dog's face that isn't your own and you trust explicitly. Strong dogs will do this and so will weak, nervy dogs. Eye contact will set a strong dog off and my GSD will bite you just for eye contact. You will also not kiss him on the face or lean over him. The dog has been out in crowds of thousands of people, done literally hundreds of demos for children and adults. The dog has rules and doesn't want people in his face, I don't like it myself. The dog had a bunch of real street bites and never had a bad bite or an accidental bite. 

Malinois can be quicker to react and I would never lean over a Malinois to do this, that I didn't know or was getting mixed signals from. Eye contact and an overbearing approach will get you bit in the face. I kiss dogs in my unit in the head all the time in training. Part of this is training and to show handlers how to calm their dogs and change drive state. Not every dog, I can read dogs and some will simply nail you for "breaking the rules." I rarely do this with Malinois, because in working with them daily I understand them and know the triggers. 

What happened on that video does not make that dog a vicious animal or a dog that is not suitable for patrol work. What happened on that video was a _self correcting mistake_ made by a complacent trainer. I bet he learned a lesson and won't duo that again. 

I showed this video at our K-9 training the other day as lesson and an explanation. One guy asked if I would kiss Boru on the face? I opened my car door and gave Boru a big kiss on the head and a face snuggle. He is not going to bite me for that, and he is a reactive dog. If I looked at him and saw any tension or signals I wouldn't have done it. Will I stick my face in his during bite work, nope. I'm a little smarter than that. 

This video is a good example of "breaking the rules" with this dog, getting in his personal space where the trainer didn't belong and missing the signals. We all have rules of what we allow strangers to do, how close they can get, how much they can touch us and where they can touch us. We all have our personal space and will defend it, some people more violently then others. Dogs are the same, except they don't speak English. The dog gave a warning, the signal was missed and the guy got bit. Play stupid games, earn stupid prizes. I'm sure the dog taught this guy a valuable lesson. Hopefully, others watching the video will learn a lesson from his mistake. Don't get in a dog's face, don't lean over dogs and teach this to your children.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> 1. What happened on that video was a self correcting mistake made by a complacent trainer. I bet he learned a lesson and won't duo that again.
> 
> 2. Don't get in a dog's face, don't lean over dogs and teach this to your children.


Those are the only 2 things I'd take from the whole video. Sometimes there's just no sense in micro analyzing every little bit and piece. Don't do that, and you should know better should cover it. Not just a trainer, but if you've ever owned a dog in your life you have to have been able to learn something about how to handle one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Does anyone think the same thing couldn't happen with a GSD? There are plenty of videos out there of people getting into a GSD's face and getting bit. 

of course a GSD can do this . The dogs that I knew that hospitalized , in one case a man's wife , and much more recently an owner, woman who bore bruises and bite marks and then her husband was hospitalized , were NOT clear and balanced In the second case progeny of that dogs dam tended to exhibit the same trait .

the malinois in the video is in an intense focus zone -- I believe he would have reacted , coming out of the zone, no matter what the handler did -- that dog may very well had done a redirect bite if the guy stepped on his foot , bumped into him, tripped and fallen on the dog.

what if the dog had been injured or you have terrain where the dog has to be slung across the guys shoulders .

I believe a good dog -- powerful in drive and will to dominate can enter a scenario - work --- and then recover his emotional equilibrium

I look for those dogs . No compromises on stopping power .


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I owned a dog that would have done this to a stranger, only it would have been a nip, not a full-on serious bite. 

People can be SO CLUELESS, though! I had her tied to a tree on the front lawn while I did some gardening at the sixplex my husband used to own. There was a nursery business just across the road, so there were a lot of cars coming and going. 

This guy gets out of his car, steps over the chain barrier that marked the property boundary, walks right up to Tasha, who was positioned well back from the property line so no one would be tempted to pet her, and sticks his face in hers. He very nearly got bitten on the nose!

"Why'd he do that?" he asked me. "Do you think it was because he smelled my dog on me?"

No, you clueless jerk, and you have NO IDEA how lucky you were to still have your nose!!


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## valeriabee (Dec 18, 2017)

My dog recently "bit" a neighbor and is now at threat of being put down. It's ridiculous how they discriminate against him just because hes a big dog. They've called him a vicious dog even though he is anything but that. He is energetic, rambunctious, and playful, but he is not vicious. I am desperate for help and generally heart broken that my beautiful baby is going through this.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

valeriabee said:


> My dog recently "bit" a neighbor and is now at threat of being put down. It's completely ridiculous how they discriminate against him just because hes a big dog. They've called him a vicious dog even though he is anything but that. He is energetic, rambunctious, and playful, but he is not vicious. I am desperate for help and generally heart broken that my beautiful baby is going through this.


You might garner more attention by starting a new thread. Sucks this happened, hopefully you can find a solution addressing both the neighbors concerns and keeping your dog safe.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

In this video is see a dog who is pissed off and bit because his space was invaded. He did not trust this guy and bit the part that pissed him off. Maybe the trainer assumed because the dog listened to him there was some form of relationship which just is not true. There was a lady laughing after this happened or during the end of the bite.

I had a dog who was uncomfortable if you put on arm around or was to much in his space he would just show it on his face he looked uncomfortable and his eyes bulged out of his head. He did not bite but made it clear he was not comfortable in his expression. I have a photo to. His space was always respected.


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