# Early training young Working Line puppy



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My puppy is 9 weeks old. He is somewhere between medium and high drive, and overall seems pretty calm with good nerve. We don't have an IPO training option and I don't think he has high enough drive for that. I'm planning to start him in Obedience at five months which works out with the timing for the next class, then decide what to do next. He is showing prey drive with toys and is already using his nose to follow a scent. He will respond a little to food but not if he is interested in something else. He likes toys and wants to play tug all the time, but the breeder asked us not to play tug games with him. Is he too young to start training and if not, what should we start with? He will sit for a toy. He won't give up a toy unless it's his idea, so I need to eventually teach him to release. I have no idea where to start.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

Just wait.
My WL pup seemed rather "flat" for the first month or so I had him, and at around 4 months of age, his drive kicked in big time.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Any specific reason the breeder asked you not to play any tug with him?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

EMH said:


> Just wait.
> My WL pup seemed rather "flat" for the first month or so I had him, and at around 4 months of age, his drive kicked in big time.


We tried to pick a dog that isn't too high drive, so I'm hoping he stays less intense.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Any specific reason the breeder asked you not to play any tug with him?


Aggression? I don't know. We had so much else to ask, that didn't seem as important. Our trainer we used with an aggressive dog said the same thing. This dog is very different. I don't know how to play tug and I don't know how to get a toy away from him, so I wouldn't know what to do with that anyway.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's no rule that says you have to play tug, I was just curious. Whatever you decide, congratulations, have fun with him.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thank you. I don't know if I should start him on basic training now or just wait. Any ideas?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sorry bout that, I skipped half your post. They're never too young to start with some tracking. You can start with scent pads, basically a square crushed area of grass that you spread some small bits of food in, or there's a book I like, Tracking from the beginning by Gary Patterson. Its a really detailed, easy to follow, step by step plan for footstep tracking.

I like playing two ball with a pup too, just to create a foundation for them running to me. You roll one ball for him and then lure him back to you with the second ball. You roll it when he gets back to you. I start in a confined area so I can always get the first ball, but they usually bring the first one back in a small area. 

I enjoy teaching them positions, sit,down, and stand, luring with food. The best method I think is Ivan's treat chasing. He has a video of it on his Train per view website. 

There are plenty of people that just let them grow up a little, but I have fun doing different things with a puppy, so its not like there's a specific right or wrong. It's up to you.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'll try that. He knows sit and down sometimes. If we play tug, how do I get him to release the toy?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'll try that. He knows sit and down sometimes. If we play tug, how do I get him to release the toy?


Trade for another toy.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My pup is also very young. She loves a bit of tug. I let the toy go and she gives it a shake. When we are done I let her eat a tiny treat. Growing puppies often have a nice food drive, unless stressed or tired, so tidbits are a great reward for letting go of the toy, going inside, going to bed, etc.

The two toy swap works all the way from pup to adult, especially when they get the idea of the game. Even a pup with a mild drive is going to want to play, and most likely when you want to relax for the night.:crazy:

My older dog was "on the go" most of the time when he was a pup. Now that he is nearly two years old he has a nice "off switch" indoors. Don't let youthful exuberance fool you. They change so much the first couple of years.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

forget release, when the pup wants to play he will literally shove that toy in your hands


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Teaching the out is very simple. Simply freeze the toy and say OUT when you want him to out and simply wait. When he lets go completely, mark and give him another bite. Rinse and repeat. Give him lots of wins, let him carry the toy and tug you for it. 
When playing with the pup always have him on a long line, many dogs will run with their toy and play keep away when they win it. Simply call the pup, jerk the line until he is heading toward you, praise reward him with another tug match and let him win again. Rinse and repeat.

Since it seems you want a good house dog teach the place command.
I use a bed. Simply say place and put the dog on the bed, I put a chew or a bone there at first to encourage him to stay. If he leaves the bed issue a verbal correction and replace him physically on the bed, I will do this a few times until either the dog stay or I put him up in his crate. 
Do this for a week and you get a dog that runs to his "place" and stays there when told. This is a great way to calm a rambunctious dog in the house when he is being crazy. Place, make it very black and white.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If he has a high value toy, he won't release it for another toy. Or my other dog darts in and steals it from him. I need to get more creative with toys. I hate to always lock up my older dog, who is already feeling displaced. 

We talked about it and we aren't going to play tug after all. I met a woman who shows shepherds who said tug ruined her dog's posture and she couldn't show anymore, by building up the wrong sets of muscles. My dog would love it but my spouse and I disagree so to keep peace in the family, I will swap toys for him to carry and not tug with them.

This morning he tracked a scent all the way across the yard. I don't know if he smelled something or was looking for a good place to pee.

I was going to teach targeted touch and place, but he chews everything I put on the floor or in front of his nose. He tugged the dog bed across the room, so I had to remove it for now.

He also destroyed his first leash. He is finally chewing on toys rather than the leash.

I'm think about training with a Head collar. Is that bad him? My friend is a service dog/ guide dog trainer and she uses one exclusively until they can transfer to a halter with a handle or a harness.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You have a baby puppy...you are asking for way too much for this age. 
Don't train him with the other dog freely able to change up the game. Of course he will try to possess it when the other dog is around. Quick training session with the older dog first, a quick game of fetch or actually training, put the dog up and take out the younger one out of the older dogs view. 
Tug will not ruin a dogs muscle tone/balance, I don't get that analogy whatsoever. Tug is a great outlet, and a way for the handler to control the dogs drive/capping. I know several people who show their dogs for their breed survey and tug is a given every single day of the dogs life.

NO to the head collar!!! People use those because they think it works, but it is just a band aid and if the dog is truly reactive can do damage to the neck or muzzle.
Place to a flat rug or whatever can be achieved with no chewing, you let the pup know that chewing is not happening. Praise and reward in short segments when pup is calmly lying on the 'place'. 
I think your pup has too much freedom, and gets away with quite a bit. If you change up that aspect, I bet you get a puppy pushing into you for interaction and will be more biddable in the play


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> If he has a high value toy, he won't release it for another toy. Or my other dog darts in and steals it from him. I need to get more creative with toys. I hate to always lock up my older dog, who is already feeling displaced.
> 
> We talked about it and we aren't going to play tug after all*. I met a woman who shows shepherds who said tug ruined her dog's posture and she couldn't show anymore, by building up the wrong sets of muscles.* My dog would love it but my spouse and I disagree so to keep peace in the family, I will swap toys for him to carry and not tug with them.


This makes zero sense. Unless she had the dog tugging with a tractor, it makes zero sense.

And playing tug with your dog helps build up you as the reward vs. the toy alone.



LuvShepherds said:


> This morning he tracked a scent all the way across the yard. I don't know if he smelled something or was looking for a good place to pee.


Start him on scent pads!

You can start teaching him to perch to teach rear end awareness.

You can start teaching him to heel by luring him.

There are lots of things you can teach him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You should ask your breeder why not to play tug. It may be with a 9 week old they are concerned about teeth?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

alexg said:


> forget release, when the pup wants to play he will literally shove that toy in your hands


Or "throw" it at your ankles as you're walking by, or leave it in your direct path as you are coming out of the bathroom, or place it right on your pillow They're relentless once they know "your" habits

If mine doesn't release - I walk away. Game over. She knows this.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Place to a flat rug or whatever can be achieved with no chewing, you let the pup know that chewing is not happening. Praise and reward in short segments when pup is calmly lying on the 'place'.
> 
> I think your pup has too much freedom, and gets away with quite a bit. If you change up that aspect, I bet you get a puppy pushing into you for interaction and will be more biddable in the play


How do I get him to stop chewing rugs? I never had a dog this persistent about it. 

Please explain how he has too much freedom? What is he getting away with? I would like to stop that, but as you said, he's a baby. He is with me most of the time when the older dog is with me or he is in the crate. I don't leave him alone outside because he eats everything and our neighbors can't tolerate barking of any kind. He's very mellow most of the time and usually quiet in the crate. Right now he's asleep on my foot.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> This makes zero sense. Unless she had the dog tugging with a tractor, it makes zero sense
> 
> 
> Start him on scent pads!
> ...


She said the dog was obsessed with tug and tugged everything, eventually maintaining that posture. Sort of like someone who sits at a computer all day ending up with hunched shoulders.

I will try those things when he is a little older. It sounds like I need to work on the chewing and biting first.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> She said the dog was obsessed with tug and tugged everything, eventually maintaining that posture. Sort of like someone who sits at a computer all day ending up with hunched shoulders.
> 
> I will try those things when he is a little older. It sounds like I need to work on the chewing and biting first.


Still makes zero sense. Even if that were true, tug is not the issue. OCD behavior is is the issue.

And work on those things now. If you busy his brain with useful things like scent work and obedience then he won't be so apt to chew on things. Engage his brain.

And you stop those things by redirecting him and playing with him.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Redirecting isn't stopping the behaviors. He's like a little child who keeps going back for more the more I try to distract him. I can see he's bored, though. I will try those things. I have been working with him a little. He already knows Sit and Down for treats or a toy. He got bored with those after a few days but I still run through it every day. I was going to wait a few weeks to start active training, but he started sitting on his own when I held up his food bowl.

I'm confused because some people say to start training now, others say to wait until his attention span is better and to just enjoy the first few weeks when he is still a baby. I've had so many rescue dogs, even the older puppies who were past this stage that I'm not used to a tiny puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He is only 9 weeks old. He's been with you a week? Redirecting will stop the behaviors but it is not going to happen in just a few days.

I had Seger doing scent pads at 8 weeks. Started perch work at by 10 weeks. You can start engaging their brain at any point as long as you keep it short, positive and reward often.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> How do I get him to stop chewing rugs? I never had a dog this persistent about it.
> 
> Please explain how he has too much freedom? What is he getting away with? I would like to stop that, but as you said, he's a baby. He is with me most of the time when the older dog is with me or he is in the crate. I don't leave him alone outside because he eats everything and our neighbors can't tolerate barking of any kind. He's very mellow most of the time and usually quiet in the crate. Right now he's asleep on my foot.


Oh shoot! Your neighbors can't tolerate barking of any kind? GSD's bark!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Our neighbor is extremely sensitive and gets upset if my dogs play in the yard and make any barking noises. I should buy her a package of earplugs. There are a lot of dogs in our area and they bark a lot, so she has reasons for not liking noise, but I wonder why she ever moved here. She doesn't like trees or leaves, either, or children, so why move to a place 
where she is surrounded by children, trees and dogs? I have decided to ignore her. I don't talk to her and I don't let my dogs out to bark needlessly for hours at a time like the other neighbors do.

Jax, what is perch work? Since I first posted this thread, I started following suggestions made here and we are seeing good results. I know he's young. He loves the attention and he's not biting me as much. My future dog sitter if we ever need to leave the dogs came over for a visit and loves him. He ran over to her and sat right down in front of her. She did a few early training things with him and is surprised at how eager he is to learn at such a young age. 

When I relaxed with him, things started going better. My older dog is finally getting used to him, too.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Perchwork teaches them rear end awareness. Every dog I've ever seen loves it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsvNvK8T1z8


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

First thing you need to do is stop getting advice from idiots. Like those that say tug ruined their dogs muscle tone. Second thing is to get a crate and start using it. Third thing is fund a trainer that can actually train a dog (these are rare). Here is a hint if they advocate head collars, are anti prong, start bragging about how they are positive, anti violence, run. Most importantly if they can't show themselves working a dog competently run.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> First thing you need to do is stop getting advice from idiots. Like those that say tug ruined their dogs muscle tone. Second thing is to get a crate and start using it. Third thing is fund a trainer that can actually train a dog (these are rare). Here is a hint if they advocate head collars, are anti prong, start bragging about how they are positive, anti violence, run. Most importantly if they can't show themselves working a dog competently run.


I use a crate but not all the time. I like my dogs with me in the house to learn manners. I'm using the crate when he needs down time and when my older dog needs a break.

We have two excellent trainers who also own working line German Shepherds. I know what to do once we get into obedience. It's been a long time since I had this young a puppy because I've been doing GSD rescue for years.

I have the chance to take Puppy kindergarten but it's all treat based, so I haven't decided what I'm going to do. Our vet said its not necessary since we are starting obedience as soon as he's old enough, but they do targeting and place, and other useful things in an organized setting. My obedience trainer doesn't use treats at all and a lot of his graduates earn titles. My older dog came out of that class very well trained. 

Part of my stress level is due to my older dog not knowing what to do with the puppy, but now they are coming to an agreement and know what to do with each other.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have the chance to take Puppy kindergarten but it's all treat based, so I haven't decided what I'm going to do. Our vet said its not necessary since we are starting obedience as soon as he's old enough, but they do targeting and place, and other useful things in an organized setting. My obedience trainer doesn't use treats at all and a lot of his graduates earn titles. My older dog came out of that class very well trained.


What is your aversion to treats? The dog that just won the worlds was trained with food as a pup.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I started training My WL puppy the day she came home. 

It's never too early. Just make it fun. As far as outing, offer another toy or treat. 

There is SO MUCH you can do with puppies. They are sponges. Take advantage of that. I'm glad I did...

and wait yeah why wouldn't you use food? I trained my dogs foundations basically with food. It's the easiest thing to use. Especially if you have a food driven hungry dog... 

Like ... My female is 14 months old and I still use food to train stuff. It works wonders. She's too insane for her ball/tug to focus and learn. I use that once a foundation is set...

Also like jax08 said - perch work is wonderful and is so easy to train. Why wait till the dog is 5 months old?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I never used treats at all with any dog until I started rescuing. I had mixed results with that. Now I have two different training groups. One says no treats ever, the other only uses treats. I have never had good results treat training a dog. When I don't have a treat in my hand, half the time they ignore me. The breeder also said not to use treats and her dogs are all extremely well trained, many have IPO titles (Sch 3). I don't understand treat training or how to get them off of treats when they are solid so they will do a recall without a treat reward, for example. My female is excellent in the obedience ring, but forget the recall out in the yard unless she smells a food reward or if it's her idea. She is a rescue and I attribute that lack of solid response to treat training.

I also don't like the idea of having to work a dog when they are hungry. I work my dogs after meal time and we all eat at the same time. I don't like bribery. I never used it with my own children and don't want to use it with a dog. Because I have trainers available who are polar opposites on treats vs having the dog respect and focus on you rather than the treat, I'm confused. At this point, I don't know what to do.

It also upsets me that positive only trainers won't use a prong collar when needed. We consult a behavior specialist when we get in a challenging foster and he told us from the first meeting never ever use treats with your dog when training. He has a whole philosophy which is too long to get into here and it works. We are not currently fostering in case anyone was wondering how that works out with a new puppy. I needed a break from untrained dogs, which is all we were getting, and also from getting attached and giving dogs up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Interesting...You are missing many pieces in training. Balance. Want to/Have to. So the breeder told you not to tug and not to treat. So how do you reward the dog?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> *I have never had good results treat training a dog. When I don't have a treat in my hand, half the time they ignore me. * The breeder also said not to use treats and her dogs are all extremely well trained, many have IPO titles (Sch 3). *I don't understand treat training or how to get them off of treats* when they are solid so they will do a recall without a treat reward, for example. My female is excellent in the obedience ring, but forget the recall out in the yard unless she smells a food reward or if it's her idea. She is a rescue and *I attribute that lack of solid response to treat training.*


I've bolded what I think are the important parts of that paragraph. Just because you haven't had good results doesn't mean that you can't in the future. The fact that you don't understand how to use food in training is the problem, not the concept of using food in training in general. The lack of a solid recall has nothing to do with using food to train, it's because you don't know how to properly phase it out. The rate of reinforcement should be very high for new and/or difficult behaviors (adding distance, duration, or distraction to behaviors that are reliable in less challenging situations, for example), and lower for learned behaviors that have been sufficiently generalized to new places and situations. 

I use a lot of food with a new puppy to mark and reward behaviors I like and want to encourage more of, especially eye contact. I want that to be a default behavior (my dogs will sit and look at me if I don't give any particular cue), in addition to something they do when given a command, and the more I reinforce that, the more focus they offer me. I add a verbal cue later. I also train my dogs that if I'm holding something they want - a treat, their food bowl, a bully stick, a ball, a tug toy, it's a cue to ignore what I have and look at me instead because that's the only way they're going to get it. This is actually very simple to train. We got Halo at 10 weeks old and after 3 weeks of working with her at home, she had the best focus of any puppy in her class. I have pictures from week 2 (which I've posted before) of her laying on the floor, off leash, staring at my face while I hold a treat in both hands and also with one on the floor right in front of her. 



> I also don't like the idea of having to work a dog when they are hungry. I work my dogs after meal time and we all eat at the same time. I don't like bribery. I never used it with my own children and don't want to use it with a dog. Because I have trainers available who are polar opposites on treats vs having the dog respect and focus on you rather than the treat, I'm confused.


I can see why conflicting information like that would be confusing. But for one thing, you don't necessarily need to work a dog when they're hungry. I could feed Halo a meal and train her with food immediately afterwards, but not all dogs are as food motivated as she is. But rather than do that, even with her, it's just as easy to train before I feed the evening meal, and I often used part of her kibble as training treats. Delaying his meal until after you and your family eats, and then training with his food is a simple adjustment that he should be fine with. For another thing, using food is not bribing, not if done correctly. It should be a reward. Also, using treats and having the dog respect and focus on you instead of the food are not polar opposites, and any trainer who tells you otherwise is someone I would personally avoid. That shows a basic lack of understanding of motivational training. Before I MAKE my dogs do something I want to show them why they should WANT to comply. The more they understand that, the less I have to correct them for non-compliance, the happier we all are, and the more fun we have. I want dogs that love to train, and are always ready to learn. And I think it's just clearer for the dog in the early stages of training to mark the right behavior than to correct the wrong behavior. There is always only one "right", but many "wrongs", not matter what you're trying to train. 



> It also upsets me that positive only trainers won't use a prong collar when needed. We consult a behavior specialist when we get in a challenging foster and he told us from the first meeting never ever use treats with your dog when training. He has a whole philosophy which is too long to get into here and it works.


Even if you take a class that doesn't use aversives that doesn't mean you can't do it on your own, as long as you already know what you're doing. Can you boil down his philosophy so it's not so long? I'm curious why anyone who claims to be behavior specialist would say to never use food to train any dog. What are his qualifications?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Debbie, I appreciate yours and Jax's responses. I do need to figure this out because I've lost a lot of the confidence I had in the past since I started rescuing. I've had some good results with retraining dogs and some colossal failures. Now I have an incredible dog who is intelligent and eager to please, and I don't want to make any mistakes. With rescues, it's hit and miss. Sometimes you can do everything right and it's still not enough. This little guy is a big responsibility and a lot of joy, and I want both of us to love working together.

The trainer whom I consulted when I had aggressive rescues believes in positive relationships with your dog based on the Alpha owner model, positive reinforcement other than food and understanding how to read and interact with your dog. He uses something like NILIF and similar techniques, but it's much more than that. I've used his methods already with my puppy who was biting more than any other puppy I've ever had. I realized he was nippier before a meal, when he was thirsty or needed to go out. So by reading his biting, in just one week I was able to respond to his needs rather than the behavior and it's almost stopped. So that works. It's the beginning obedience and I'm not sure about. Most of my previous puppies were older when we got them and partially trained. The female I have now was a puppy rescue and in comparison to my current puppy, was very easy.

Even though I don't like using treats, I started using kibble right away to teach Sit, Down, Come, Give/release, and today, Place. He does everything I ask him to do for a treat. I began partially reinforcing Sit and replacing the treat with a hand signal and that is working. But those are easy things to teach with food. I don't know what to do next. 

My big failure is loose leash walking. My female, who did well in obedience, walks well on the leash in the ring, but likes to forge a little when we are on a walk. I haven't been able to fix that. Every other dog I've had in the last fifteen years, my own and the fosters, all walked with a tight leash and I never was able to fix that. I'm sure it's my problem. When I was young and used the old tug/release method and no food, every dog I ever owned ( or my family did) walked perfectly on leash.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> Now I have an incredible dog who is intelligent and eager to please, and I don't want to make any mistakes. With rescues, it's hit and miss. Sometimes you can do everything right and it's still not enough. This little guy is a big responsibility and a lot of joy, and I want both of us to love working together.


I totally understand what you mean about the responsibility. We've never had a rescue, but we got our first two GSDs as older pups - Sneaker was 16 weeks old and Cassidy was 20 weeks old. When we got Dena at 9 weeks old, she was such a blank slate, and I had the ability to do everything right (or wrong!) from the very beginning. It was exciting but also a little intimidating. :wild:



> The trainer whom I consulted when I had aggressive rescues believes in positive relationships with your dog based on the Alpha owner model, positive reinforcement other than food and understanding how to read and interact with your dog. He uses something like NILIF and similar techniques, but it's much more than that.


I've never really understood what people mean when they say they use positive reinforcement but don't believe in using food or toys in training. What's left as a positive reinforcer? Sure, there's praise, and I do pair that with rewards, but words - human language, is not inherently rewarding to a dog. You can make praise rewarding by creating an association between a word and something that IS meaningful to the dog, but food is already a primary reinforcer since dogs need to eat to live. So why not just start there? I think training works best when we let the dog tell us what's most reinforcing to them, rather than trying to tell them what we think should motivate them. We've never had a dog that wasn't easily food motivated, but Halo goes way beyond that, so not using food to train her because…..well, just BECAUSE, doesn't make sense to me. The more a dog wants what I have, the harder they're going to work to get it and the more motivated they'll be to figure out how to make that happen. It's a win/win situation. 

I do also use NILIF, which fits perfectly well with motivational training, because as I'm fading out food rewards for many things, I'm substituting real life rewards, which is what NILIF is all about. I want a sit (or down, or whatever I ask for) and eye contact for everything I can think of that's of value to the dog. I usually use food in the beginning to get a dog to drop a ball, but eventually, continuation of the game is the reward and no more treats are necessary. But in order to get to that stage, the dog has to give up the ball so they can figure out that I can't throw it again if I can't get it back, and a yummy treat held right up to the nose works very well for that.



> Even though I don't like using treats, I started using kibble right away to teach Sit, Down, Come, Give/release, and today, Place. He does everything I ask him to do for a treat. I began partially reinforcing Sit and replacing the treat with a hand signal and that is working. But those are easy things to teach with food. I don't know what to do next.


Are you luring with the treat? I do that, but I very quickly get the food out that hand, and use an empty hand to make the same motion, then treat from the other hand. Usually that fading of the lure happens within the first training session or two for any particular behavior. The longer you continue to lure, the more the dog becomes dependent on the sight of food in your hand as a secondary cue, which is the mistake that many people make, so it's crucial to fade it out as soon as you possibly can. That doesn't mean I won't go back to luring with food for some other behavior, or go back to food in the hand for that same behavior once I start working in other, more distracting locations. For example, even if I've graduated from a food lure to a hand signal to a verbal cue only for something basic like a sit around the house, I might still lure a time or two if we're working at a park, with all those interesting sights and smells, or standing on a busy street corner with cars whizzing by. 



> My big failure is loose leash walking. My female, who did well in obedience, walks well on the leash in the ring, but likes to forge a little when we are on a walk. I haven't been able to fix that. Every other dog I've had in the last fifteen years, my own and the fosters, all walked with a tight leash and I never was able to fix that. I'm sure it's my problem. When I was young and used the old tug/release method and no food, every dog I ever owned ( or my family did) walked perfectly on leash.


To be honest, Halo is the first dog we've ever had (we're on GSD #4 & #5 since 1986) that I taught to walk perfectly on leash, and I did her training 100% with a flat collar, which was not easy! She was in a CGC class, and in order to take the test at the end she could only wear a flat collar, so I decided to train that way from the very beginning. I didn't really start in earnest until she was almost 7 months old. When she went in heat, I decided to work on getting Keefer better on leash, so while she stayed home for a month I took him out every day. Since he was already several years old, I used the same training methods as with Halo, but he wore a prong. Now I walk them on prongs, as management only. Rarely do I need to actually correct them with it, but where we walk has squirrels, wild turkeys, deer, bicyclists, runners, and lots of people with dogs, kids, and babies in strollers - pretty huge distractions. Now I get compliments all the time, people ask me how I taught her to walk so nicely on leash. I tell them "hundreds of hours and hundreds of miles", which is absolutely true!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have had puppies anywhere from 12-20 weeks and if they are with a good breeder or rescue group, they have already done some training. 

I'm reading Warren Eckstein's How to Get Your Dog to do What you Want and he doesn't use treats. He believes in using your voice and enthusiasm. Is that not effective? I'm also reading the new version of the Monks of New Skete without the physical rolling and other things people didn't like from their earlier books. I didn't realize they use treats for sit, down and early commands, but just a little.

I need to learn to phase out treats the right way if I'm going to use them. I'm just not sure where to go next. Videos are helpful but the more I watch on youtube, the more confused I'm getting. My dog actually likes toys as much as food. And now he's crying and needs to go out, so I won't get to write anymore. Later...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I wasn't clear on the behavior specialist when I explained his philosophy. He isn't an obedience trainer. He recommends we take our dogs to a class for that. He is expensive and charges by the hour, so he is mainly used for behavior problems. He told us that more than half his clients come from food-based classes or trainers with serious behavior problems. As best I can tell, it's because people learn to make their dogs perform without having the dog's respect or a relationship. I'm trying to do both.

You have all convinced me to try treats. I need to understand how to phase them out. You said you lure first with a treat and then with your hand, but mine already knows at his young age when there is food and when there isn't. He can smell it when it's there. I will keep trying.

How did you train loose leash walking using a flat buckle collar? That would be my goal. I also would like to earn a CGC, another certification I've never explored before.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Any dog with a heart beat can earn a CGC. Unfortunately, rescue will teach you nothing. 
Find a trainer that knows what they are doing, look at a local working club. There is usually a few trainers going there that know how to properly raise and train a WL pup.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Any dog with a heart beat can earn a CGC. Unfortunately, rescue will teach you nothing.
> Find a trainer that knows what they are doing, look at a local working club. There is usually a few trainers going there that know how to properly raise and train a WL pup.


Thank you. I have one lined up for five months and older. The trainer owns a WL dog. I'm working on what to do in the three months between now and then to keep my dog interested and busy, and to do early training.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's an older thread where I talk about the leash training methods I used with Halo: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...here-find/159739-short-leash.html#post2150952


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm reading Warren Eckstein's How to Get Your Dog to do What you Want and he doesn't use treats. He believes in using your voice and enthusiasm. Is that not effective?


Sure, but there's just no reason you'd need to choose between using your voice and demeanor, and using food and/or toys. I use both, as do many people, which I believe is even MORE effective than either one alone.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here's an older thread where I talk about the leash training methods I used with Halo: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...here-find/159739-short-leash.html#post2150952


Thank you. That looks helpful. I'll let you know how we do.


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