# GI Support



## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I'm considering starting Risa on some sort of digestive support. Even when she's having decent poops, it seems it doesn't take much to throw her back off. I have been giving her 2 capsules of slippery elm daily since mid-September. For the most part, it's been highly effective. But lately her poos have been softer again. Not to the point I'm alarmed or worried about a recurrence of SIBO. However, I would like her to have nice poops!!! (She did have very 'sad' poop last night which earned her a fast. However, I am pretty sure I know the cause. Which sucks because, again, it's something she really likes. Hopefully I can still give it to her--just maybe in smaller portions.)

So, does anyone use/recommend a digestive supplement that might help keep Risa from having such a yo-yo GI tract? I have had her on a probiotic in the past but I don't think it did anything. Didn't hurt, didn't help. 

Thanks in advance.


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

I *love, love, love* B-Natural's Digestion blend for my Grace who has EPI, but is not on prescription enzymes at this time.

http://www.b-naturals.com/bertes-digestion-blend-1-lb-p-101?cPath=22_23_15

(I also give their Immune Blend...I give both at a half dose daily).

Oh, and I only give probiotics separately if I start smelling "SIBO" farts...sounds funny, but there is a different smell lol.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I give LJ Perfect Form that Ruth recommended. 

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/perfect_form.shtml


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Nux Vomica is a simple homeopathic remedy that may help as well.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I wouldn't give nux vomica for those symptoms and I wouldn't give it long term. 

Chama did great on that Berte's Naturals one mentioned above but it didn't work at all for Rafi. Rafi has gold standards poos with the Perfect Form that Joanne mentions above. 

And you can up the slippery elm if you need to. Are you giving 2 capsules twice a day or 1 twice a day? When Chama had issues I gave as many as 3, 3 times a day.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I swear by *human* grade probiotics (I buy this http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.asp...matchallpartial because it is a blend of bacteria, and I always keep it refrigerated.) I'll never own a GSD without them again.









The ones I give suggest 2 per day for humans. Camper (85 lbs, and you may recall, he had SIBO) took one in the morning and two at night. If he started to have any sort of softening of his stools, I increased that to 4 per day, then backed down the dose as soon as things recovered (usually a day or two). It's the only thing that worked consistently. My vet and internist felt that the probiotics (even at a higher dose than recommended for humans) were better for him than any Rx treatment...and certainly better than regular bouts of diarrhea.









Celo (50 lbs this week) takes one of these daily. He had very soft to liquid stools when I tried him on kibble for a short while. When I put him on raw, things firmed up, but not perfectly (he seems to be sensitive to too much fat, which as you know, is hard to get exactly consistent from meal to meal). The probiotic does the trick. Even if I miss a day's dose, he's fine. I wouldn't be surprised if as he starts to approach adult weight I may need to increase the dose to two tablets, but he may surprise me. 


So maybe with Ris, you weren't giving her enough probiotic? Or, were you feeding her probiotic made for dogs? I had read a paper(that I can't find right now) of research comparing human probiotics to those made for dogs (compared to a control group that got nothing) and essentially, the study showed that those made for dogs (eg Fortiflora and others available OTC) are just slightly better than nothing.

One of the things they pointed out is that L. rhamnosus, works very well, so if we're giving acidophilus alone (which is very common in lower priced probiotic capsules), we're not getting the full benefit of probiotic treatment. 

I know Ris weighs about what Celo weighs, but since she has SIBO, I wouldn't be surprised if she needs a higher dose. Since she's doing ok right now, it seems like a perfect time to move good bacteria into her GI tract to set up a "neighborhood watch" before the bad guys set up shop and ruin the neighborhood again...


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Glad I stumbled upon this thread. I was just atlking with my vet today about the possibility of adding Tylan powder to Zisso's intake and now I am rethinking it. It sounds like the link above might do the trick. I have been giving Perfect Form for the last month and while it helps, it does not do the complete trick. I finally stopped giving anything like treats to the dogs again, so get their poop solid and good again so want to try something different. Thanks for the info


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm just gonna throw out a bunch of stuff here...........

I like that Perfect Form stuff, been meaning to try it.

Probiotics: acidophilous, bifidus, bulgaricus from the refrigerated section of the helath food store works great for Indy. Not for Max. I've been meaning to try a straigh acidophilous for him, maybe the other stuff is feeding some pathogenic something in him....I always (try to) give it between meals.

Primal Defense is supposed to be kinda a probiotic from soil organisms. I have some here that I recently bought to try for Max, but I haven't yet, his condition is too precarious and his response to probiotics too unpredictable. Used it with success for Indy many many years ago.

DGL licorice will help with all sorts of stuff in the gut. It's in chewables with artificial flavoring though, which I"m not happy about, but starting to try it for Max. Regular licorice should not be used for this.

l-glutamine powder mixed with apple juice is my all time favorite - very healing for the digestive tract. Can't say enough good things about it. Very good for LGS.

For dogs that run "hot", aloe vera is good. For Max I also use a combination of scullcap and black cohosh specifically for his stomach, when he pants a lot, and seems to be uncomfortable in his skin (the black cohosh again, for dogs with heat).

I'm a big fan of fresh ground flaxseeds to keep the bowels moving, they also act as a prebiotic, provide healthy fatty acids, and also natural estrogens for both males and females to block the bad estrogens in the environment. I'm thinking if food not prolonging it's "stay" in the gut, less fermentation, maybe it will help with unwanted gut guests?

Digestive enzymes given with food to help the food adequately digest and reduce the severity of leaky gut syndrome (LGS).

Proteolytic enzymes given between the meals to digest the "extra stuff" floating through the body, again helpful in LGS. They function like pac men in the body, for those of you old enough to have played the game









I've read that MSM will help with things like giardia and food allergies, though I don't know if that's true.

Peppermint is supposed to help with IBD, NOW has a Peppermint oil extract with ginger and fennel. Not sure I'd use it in a dog with heat (dogs that pant easily, red eyes). 

And in the end? Sometimes you still need something like panacur or antibiotics


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> And in the end? Sometimes you still need something like panacur or antibiotics


Absolutely. Twice, we had to put Camper on a 30 day course of ampicillin. And it has to be at least 30 days of abx in order to reach into the deep dark bowels (pun intended







) of the colon. 

We tried some of the other abx that are traditionally prescribed, but ampicillin is the only one that worked for us. I think that often, vets don't think outside of the metronidazole/tylan box (possibly the box includes panacur, but we don't even see that prescribed that often unless parasites are suspected). As owners, I think we need to keep asking questions and push our regular vets to consider other options (are they going to professional electronic bulletin boards when they get stuck, for example?). Or we need to move on to a specialist. 

My probiotics advice was aimed at Ris, who seems to be at stasis right now. For a dog that is really having a lot of GI issues, especially if they're severe, I wouldn't necessarily recommend probiotics as a first course of "treatment."


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Checking back in to read and re read this thread.

I can say that Zisso does not have severe diarrhea, and not as often as he once did. The perfect Form helps a great deal, but not when I add other foods, like the Natural Balance Chub. He then gets puddin' poo, even if he only has a wee taste of the chub meat. Like a thimble full or two, for lack of a better example. I took this statement (meant for Ris) "Since she's doing ok right now, it seems like a perfect time to move good bacteria into her GI tract to set up a "neighborhood watch" before the bad guys set up shop and ruin the neighborhood again..." 
and took that into consideration. Both of my dogs are having healthy poops right now, so thought perhaps now would be a good time to add good bacteria into their systoms as well. I will not act yet, until I hear something further here.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Sounds like there is something in that chub that your pup is sensitive to (if not actually allergic). I would definitely avoid giving my dog ANY of that stuff. When I see bad reactions in my dogs to any products, I consider it a "do not feed EVER" food, and it doesn't get fed EVER, no matter how convenient or how much my dog likes it. 

I wouldn't necessarily assume it's the protein sources that is causing the reaction, by the way. It may be a minor ingredient, or it may simply be that the mixture of the ingredients is too rich. 

If otherwise, your pup seems to be doing well, then probiotics would probably be a helpful addition to his diet. As with all supplements, I like to run such things by my vet (a very quick phone call should be sufficient).


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

You guys are the best. I really mean that.









I'm hoping Ris' poop is back to normal soon. I think we had the remnants of sad poop from Tuesday evening today. Really soft and not much of it. Hopefully tomorrow I'll find much nicer poop.

It's certainly possible I wasn't giving enough of the probiotic before. I had purchased some Acidophilus powder made for canines to give her since I couldn't seem to find any that didn't have E. faecium in it. I was giving her a heaping 1/2 tsp of this: http://www.carealotpets.com/item-detail/?ItemID=000000000034222 I still have some left. I stopped giving it when I realized Care-A-Lot Pet Supply didn't have any more in stock. The dosage directions are 1 tsp per 50 lbs of body weight and I was afraid of overdoing it. I may have to run out to BJ's and see what they have in regards to human-grade probiotic supplements (we do have Costco here but I don't have a membership there).

The slippery elm capsules I've been giving 2 once a day about 15 minutes before Risa has dinner. I could add an additional 2 capsules at lunchtime though sometimes we're out and about so I wouldn't be able to then. I wasn't sure whether it had to be given on an empty stomach or not too. I do know that it can't be given before medications as it will block their absorption.

Ris has been on antibiotics for her SIBO before. Had a week's-worth of Metra before she was diagnosed years ago and it didn't do a thing. She was on Tylan for months the first time she had SIBO and it did the trick. It hasn't really worked since. She did a 30-day course late this summer and it didn't do much. Poops weren't liquid but they were still really soft. The slippery elm helped a lot at first but her poops have gone back to soft again lately.

I agree that some foods are just 'no no' foods. Risa is getting quite a list. Thankfully, I know some of the ingredients that bother her (salmon, duck, peanut butter, some dairy, etc.). The NV medallions I gave her on Monday (just 8 of the venison) is what set her off this time. I know the medallions contain salmon oil but it's never bothered her in the past. *Sigh* Looks like I might just have to give those away. . .

Thanks for the help, everyone. It's most appreciated.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

First I want to say that I was in no way trying to steal this thread from you Jamie...so I apologize cause it almost sounds like I was









As for the chub being too rich or having something my dogs are allergic to, I do feel it is possible. But they seem to have a sensitivity to Everything I try them on. Today I bought some dried organic chicken jerky dog treats. Have not tried them on that yet. But they get puddin poo with TOTW canned food, with Pedigree canned, with Blue Buffalo canned, with Merricks BG and Venison Holiday Stew, with twice boiled hamburger well drained, with rice, you name it, it gives them puddin poo. Anything except their TOTW kibble. Sometimes they get it in between too! About the only way they are gurranteed to not get it is if we stay home 95% of the time, and they only eat the kibble. None of which really works for me. I like taking them with me, we all like the herding lessons, and training at home is sometimes with food, depending on what we are doing. I spoke withmy vet, who is the type to normally not reccomend stuff like this and she said I could try it if I want to so I am going to try the probiotics. I did manage to get human grade so I will be able to take it too, or in this case, if it doesn't help my dogs


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Not a problem! It's a similar issue so I have no problem with you 'piggybacking' my post.









Risa has issues with the food rolls. I have given her the Natural Balance lamb and rice roll before and something in it sets her off. So I avoid them now. She also tends to get loose poop when she eats canned foods (Merrick BG tripe, buffalo, and Solid Gold rabbit). You can always make homemade treats. Really easy to limit the ingredients in those. Ris' current favorite is meatballs! Just 1 lb of ground burger (I get the 90/10 because she has issues with too much fat), 1 egg, and a bit of garlic. Also makes good human food. . .


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Jamie, thanks for letting me piggyback )

I have been making the home made treats, but instead of the ground hamburger I use venison. Would you mind sharing your recipe? Last one I tried called for waaaay too much flour. Both of my dogs have issues with fat too. I have some of the NB roll left and froze it, because they can't have it. so I am giving it to a friend if I can remember. 

I did get some Acidophilus the other day. It is not pure...has fructose, sucrose,vegetable celluose, vegetable stearic acid, silica, banana, & vegetable magnesium stearate in it. But it has no gluten, yeast, wheat, milk or milk derivatives, no lactose, soy, egg, grapefriut, sodium or anything artificial in it. I have been giving each dog one 'wafer' a day to see if it has any ill affects and so far so good. I plan to up the dose to two a day(1 in the am, 1 in the pm) if needed.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Ironic, fructose and sucrose are okay in that product, but they list no grapefruit? Weird. The f&s may be problematic. 

I believe that the NB rolls contain wheat?

Except for rare occasions, Indy has had pork and veggies for dinner for the last 9 yrs and eggs and veggies for breakfast (used to be salmon, gives her lipomas now). Max is getting lamb everything, with some veggies. While variety and balancing the diet through whole foods is optimal, sometimes it's not doable because of the severe limitations these guys have with what they can eat. 

As you've noticed, sometimes it's not the food, but the form. Frozen green beans great here, not the case with canned. 


Good luck in your searches guys, you, unfortunately, are not alone.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Couldn't find probiotics at BJ's today. *Sigh* The search continues. We need a Wegmans here!!

Treat ideas, you got 'em!









*Meatballs:*
1 lb ground beef (or any ground meat will do)
1 egg
garlic

Roll 'em out on a cookie sheet and pop 'em in the oven at 300 degrees (or so). Use a meat thermometer to determine when they're done.

*Ground meat treats:*
1 pound ground game meat (venison, elk, bison. Chicken or turkey can work too, just as long as there's minimal fat in it)
1 1/2 cups flour (you can use a bit less but sometimes it sticks to the pan)
2 eggs
1 1/2 tsp of garlic powder

Mix it all together and spread it out flat on a cookie sheet. It should be about 1/4 inch in thickness. Pop it in the oven at 250 degrees for a half hour. It will be pretty much cooked on the outside but still soft and maleable on the inside.

*Liver treats:*

Liver (pre-sliced works best for the beef liver)
Garlic powder (optional)

Boil the liver for about 20 minutes until it's cooked all the way through. If you want to add garlic powder, add it to the water before you start boiling it. After the liver has been boiled, remove it from the water and put it on a metal pan. Place it in the oven to bake at 250 degrees for an hour. Once it's done, you can easily break it into smaller pieces for training treats.

*Tuna treat:*
1 can tuna/chicken/turkey (10 oz)
2 eggs
3 tsp garlic powder
1 3/4 cups flour (I usually use about 3/4 of a cup but sometimes it sticks to the pan)

Mix ingredients and press onto cookie sheet. Bake at 250 degrees for 30 minutes. Cut into quarters. Flip over and bake the other side for 15 minutes.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Awesome recipes Jamie! Thank you so much!! 
I decided to skip herding today after waking up with a scratchy throat, so maybe I will try making some







Sounds much better staying in than being out in the cold rain.

Lisa, thank for the info...the fructose and sucrose are what I worried the most about in that product! I wonder what the grapefriut does? So far I have seen no adverse affects from giving this to them, so I am happy


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Update: It appears that this Acidophilus is doing it's job







Of the two dogs I worry about the most, Zisso is it (this might be changing soon) because he definitely has IBD. I have only been giving this to him afor a few days now, and just one wafer in the morning. I have given him some Pedigree canned foodin the past few days, and chicken jerky treats in the past few days as well. We were just out playing a game of fetch and he pooped the most beautiful, perfect poop!!!







Not puddin' poo, not runny...which is what I would have expected with all he has had lately. So a HUGE thank you to this thread for the help!!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Yay for probiotics!!

Grapefruit does have an enzyme in it that will affect the way that some drugs are processed, but it was just weird to see that in the list above!


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree Lisa!! I am ecstatic over Z's improvements







Another quick update...Nadia is having puddin' poo which I am sure stems from all the extra stuff she has had lately (same as Zman) so I am going to up her dose of Acidophilus to two wafers a day & see if it helps. At one time, my vet had said that she also might have IBD but I always thought it strange to have two unrelated dogs with the same thing. Now I am starting to wonder. Or perhaps her sensitivity is just different than his.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Very awesome news!!

Ris can share in the excrement ecstasy. I didn't give her any slippery elm yesterday and she had a LOVELY poop today! Not in the least bit soft.







(Not that I plan on stopping the slippery elm.)

Hope everything continues to work well for you, Nadi, and Zisso.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Jamie I am doing a happy dance for Ris and you !! I think we are onto something YAY!! Yanno...it has been a Loooong time since I did not worry about and inspect poop...don't know what I will do with myself if the day comes that I don't have to...LOL


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Checking in to see how Ris is doing? 

I am now giving both my dogs Slippery Elm and Acidoplhilus

Not sure on how much Slippery Elm to give tho so am off to read some more.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

For the most part, poops have been good. An iffy one here and there. But overall, pretty acceptable for her.







Thanks for checking up on us! Glad to hear your guys are doing well also.


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