# Veggies, Alfalfa and kelp? Plus a lot more Q's



## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I don't want to steal Patti's thread.
I have my Ultimate Diet book that I have been reading. It mentions veggies and also Kelp and alfalfa powder to mix in with the dogs raw diet.
Most of you on your menu list aren't using them. Is there a reason?

Where can I get Powdered Alfalfa and kelp? as that is what the book says to mix in.

Vitamin c? What are your thoughts.

Duck? Is it to fatty?

Most of the meat I get has been previously frozen or comes still frozen.

Rabbit and Venison I would get from a nearby hunter/friend. What is best to try to get from the deer? I don't want to take the best from the hunter... but the stuff that most people leave behind, like the heart and liver, ribs.

My list of MM and RMB are:
Whole fryer chickens
Chicken livers/hearts
Chicken thighs/wings/drums
Cornish Game Hens
Duck
Rabbit
Venison
Beef ribs
Lake fish
Sardines (canned and fresh)
ground beef

Veggies vary wildly but I thought adding garlic would be good and of course pumpkin. Can I make my own pumpkin in the fall?

Oils? I am a little lost on this one! Saffron oils, olive oils, cod oils...
I give my 3yo fish oil from the pharmacy. Don't know what kind of oil it is but it helps with brain function.

I'll buy a scale to help measure stuff. I also already have something for mashing the veggies. Was thinking about buying a meat grinder but not sure I really need it.

How well do the Ziploc freezer bags hold up?

What about traveling with a pet on Raw? Like for vacation.
Eventually we will be moving back to the states. And having the dogs on RAW worries me when it is time to move. If I go to TX then I have a friend there who can help me while we look for a place or wait for one to open.

I think that is it for now. So much to think about!

Oh! I do understand 2 lbs per dog no matter the weight. That does help when trying to figure out how much to feed.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

I use those powders (as well as a few others including vit. C powder)--and I get them from a bulk nutritionals site called herbalcom.com 


I feed duck. It is fatty, but it has not caused any problem with my dogs. I try to cut it up so they get the fat distributed in several meals. 

Anything you can get from the deer is fair game, pun intended. Any trim meat, heart, tongue, liver, ribs. Only thing to avoid is spinal tissue or brain if there is CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) in your area. Your hunter friend would know. Leg bones aren't much good either, they are probably too hard for a dog to eat, but would make a good toy. 

Your list of available items is a nice complete list. I don't think Cornish hens are worth the expense because despite the name they are just juvenile chickens. If you have access to turkey, that's another one to consider. 


Garlic is fine (I use that as a powder as well). Pumpkin's good for fixing poop issues but need not be a regular food item. 

I wouldn't invest in a grinder until you determine for some reason that you really need and want to do that. A grinder that will handle bones is expensive, and it's labor intensive. Plus, dogs like crunching bones. 

I use Ziplok bags and they work just fine. I don't reuse them (I know, I'm a terrible environmentalist) but I suppose you could rinse them out and reuse them a second time if you were inclined. Remember, dogs don't care about "freezer burn" and other niceties like we people do. 

For travel, I recently packed a week's worth of frozen raw meals in a cooler and they did just fine. After 4-5 days, I added a bag of ice I bought on the road to continue to keep them cold. But there are other travel options--dehydrated raw, grain-free kibble, buy meals on the road at any grocery store, etc...

And the "2 pounds" is a ballpark figure--that's based on 2-3% of the adult weight of an average 80-90 pound GSD. (obviously, other breeds would eat a different amount.) But each dogs' mileage will vary, based on their activity level, metabolism, or even the season of the year. So just watch their weights and adjust the meal sizes accordingly. 

Sounds like you're well on your way. Good luck!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I keep my garlic to about 1/4 tsp per day, which is about 1 med clove. Garlic can cause anemia. Technically, dogs can eat up to 1 small clove per 20 per lbs of dog, but I like to err on the cautious side. 

You can cook pumpkin. No problem. 

I feed duck too. My guy has a history of SIBO, so I will mix it 1/2 with chicken, but I've never had any problems. 

I feed olive oil and salmon oil. There's a thread about coconut oil in the Diet & Nutrition section that's worth taking a look as well. Wade through the goofiness (we were up late!), but there's interesting info there.

I use reusable Ziploc containers mostly. They're easy to stack in the freezer, and I just toss them in the dishwasher. I freeze two meals of meat in each. Nice and easy to defrost as well! When I travel, I'll use Ziploc bags, but other than that, I don't. If I'm on a long trip where I'll be able to stop at grocery stores, I'll just pack a few days of meat; then I pick up food as I go. Otherwise, I do as Tracy says and just pack a cooler with ice. *Fresh* meat can last quite a while in a cooler. Also, I always have about 2 days of canned meat (chicken, beef, salmon, etc) just in case I run out. 

I also like eggs in my dog's diet, and on the road, you can often find eggs as well. 

As Tracy says, it's 2% of the dog's body weight, subject to tinkering. My guy eats a lot more than that. I'm sure couch potato dogs eat less. So I always like to warn people to watch your dog's waistline and modify as necessary.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Turkey I can either buy the breasts or whole 14 lb ones. A bit much I think and so staying with Chicken would be easier. 

Traveling wouldn't be that easy. I can't take meat on an international flight. I would have to try and regroup once we landed stateside. but for traveling around here that would be great. but then again I haven't seen a German store selling ice.









The hunters here are very good at taking care of their deer. The government regulates it all. The hunter has to count how many are on his property and then only so many can be harvested. What is harvested has to be paid so many euros per kilo. They also have to feed the deer to get them through the winter. So I almost doubt we have any Chronic Waisting disease here.

I'll go check the herbal store right now. Thanks!

I read about the coconut oil already.







I don't think I have that available around here. and the pups already get the salmon oil from Grizzly. Do you use the Extra Virgin Olive oil? Or which one?

I forgot to ask what SIBO is. I saw it mentioned before but not exactly what it is. Thanks!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I use extra virgin olive oil only. As you go from extra virgin to virgin to just "olive oil" to lose more and more of the benefits of the oil. 

SIBO = Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2580

and a more layperson's view:
http://www.shilohgtf.com/S.I.%20Bacterial%20Overgrowth%20Syndrome.htm


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Basically the good bacteria in the gut multiply too much and cause malabsorption problems. (I wish I weren't so familiar with this.)

Vegetables/fruits in a raw diet are pretty much dependant on what you believe. Some of us believe wild canines eat the contents of their prey's stomach and need vegetable matter to be healthy. Others don't believe that. I do not regularly feed Ris veggies or fruits but will give them on occasion as a snak.

I have heard that some dogs are allergic to alfalfa and kelp and, with the numerous gut issues my dog seems to have, I'd rather play it safe and avoid 'em. Vitamin C is beneficial for joint health, from what I've read. It was in a joint supplement I used to give Ris.

Duck is fine as long as you balance it out with leaner meats. Since you have access to rabbit and venison (lucky!) you should be okay. Dogs with EPI (endocrine pancreatic insufficiency) or SIBO need to be careful that they don't eat too much fatty foods.

As for the oils, I recommend fish body oils (versus a liver oil) if you choose to go with fish. Since I prefer to stick with a meat-based source of oils, I would avoid plant-based ones. That's just me, though. I have to be careful with fish oils with my dog anyway since she's sensitive to salmon.

Most of us have dogs large enough to crush the bones just fine so we don't need meat grinders.







Scales are very helpful as well. Ziploc freezer bags hold up just fine. I reuse mine over and over until they get a hole in them or are otherwise no longer useful. Sandwich bags work well for organ meat portions though they are much more fragile.

Ris flew home with me for Thanksgiving last year and I just had my mom buy some food that would last us the length of the stay (and stuff that she and my dad would eat if it were left over). We did do an overnight trip once and I just packed a meal's worth of Nature's Variety medallions in a soft cooler with ice.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

As for travelling, there's no rule that says a dog that eats mostly raw at home has to do so when on the road. Find a brand of kibble you are comfortable with and feed that---there are many superior kibbles out there. And kibble is made for convenience. No reason not to take advantage of that feature when needed. 

A 14-pound turkey isn't difficult to cut up into meal-size hunks. Turkey leg = a meal. It is a different protein source than chicken, so it isn't strictly the same. But it sounds like you've got plenty of other things lined up.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

DH is gonna talk to someone else about Lamb/sheep too.

The talk of sensitive stomachs and SIBO is a bit scary. So far I don't think they do. And I hope they don't develop anything down the road either! Yikes!


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

Just a couple of things I can think of:

First, and this is being technical, but you want to feed 2% of your dog's _ideal_ weight; not necessarily the weight he is now. For example, if your dog weighs 100 lbs. and you think he should weigh 90 lbs., you would feed him 2% of 90 lbs., and vice versa. The best measure is still the rib test, IMO.

Also, when you give salmon oil, be sure to add in Vitamin E as the salmon oil will deplete the natural Vitamin E in the body. I give my dogs 400 iu each per day.

I also like to give eggs once or twice a week - shell and all. Mine prefer that I scrunch up the shells in my hands and sprinkle them over their food.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Further to what Jan said, some fish oils and fish oil capsules have vitamin E oil in them already, so be sure to read the label.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Ok well the boys are only 14 lbs and KC is 25 lbs. We take their weight each Wednesday. So at the moment we won't know exactly how big they will be. We expect KC to be 65-70 but the boys to be 95-100. Plus with the hair on the boys it is going to be hard to know how fat they are without feeling them.

None of the salmon oils on petfooddirect have the Vit E added. Vit E only comes in liquid? Can I buy that at the local grocery store and it be ok?

What about something like Eagle Pack Holistic Solutions? Or any other Probiotics, Prebiotics and Digestive Enzymes compound?

The pups seem to go nuts over rabbit. They haven't eaten it yet just got a sniff and lick.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Danielle, we can get great stuff over here in Germany for raw! Cheap, cheap, cheap-- turkey necks in bulk here at the Aldi, Edeka, Norma, or whatever large grocery store.. don't have a large grocery store? No problem! And Russian market will have them cheeeap! No Russian market? No problem.. turkey necks are in every butchershop. That's a boney RMB right there-- and super affordable. Butchershops don't often here have turkey drums, but i buy them in bulk at any supermarket. (whack the knobby end with a hammer before feeding, so it is easier to digest, if you wanna ) Ziplock bags are available in Germany and work great, cos we can mush up the meal and squish it into our German upright lil freezers.







 The little bitty chickens here in Germany can be cut in half with heavy kitchen shears and fed as a coupla meals. To travel, there will always be a butcher shop at any village you go to in Germany. Coupla chickens, turkey necks, etc, bought at your destination, and you are set to go. As for moving back to the USA, easy! Change nothing. Do all as you plan to. When you arrive, have your friend have a few chicken thighs in the fridge and freezer, and you are set for a week until you get going with a Costco/BJs/SamsClub over there for cheap eats.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KCandMace It mentions veggies and also Kelp and alfalfa powder to mix in with the dogs raw diet.
> Most of you on your menu list aren't using them. Is there a reason?


I personally don't use alfalfa or veggies because while they can supply needed nutrients, my dogs get all the nutrients they need from other items in their diets. I also don't want the hassle of making and convincing the dogs that they like veggies.

I do use kelp to supply much needed iodine. See Patti's thyroid post re: dosage.



> Originally Posted By: KCandMaceOils? I am a little lost on this one! Saffron oils, olive oils, cod oils...
> I give my 3yo fish oil from the pharmacy. Don't know what kind of oil it is but it helps with brain function.


Oils either supply omega 6s, omega 3s or both. Most meats are naturally high in omega 6s. So to get the balance of omega 6s to 3s I supplement omega 3s- fish body oils! They have many benefits to the skin, brain, heart and they have anti inflammatory properties which are good for Penny's allergies.

All fish body oils are not created equal though. It is very important to me to purchase oils that have been tested to be free of mercury, pcb and other contaminants. I also want my oils to come from wild caught fish. Look at the label for EPA and DHA as the higher the amounts the better. To meet these requirements I use Carlson's brand salmon body oils.

Cod liver oil supply mainly vitamin A and vitamin D. I wouldn't use these oils unless you know there is a need for these fat soluble vitamins in the diet. Both my dogs receive cod liver oil because they need the extra A and D. 

The majority of oils that are high in omega 6 are also pro inflammatory and shouldn't be given to dogs with allergies.


> Originally Posted By: KCandMaceHow well do the Ziploc freezer bags hold up?


Extremely well! I rinse mine out and store them back in the freezer. They last at least a year this way. I use them until I get a hole in the bag.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Hey Patti, I have all those stores around here. Also Globus! So I will check there for the turkey. Chicken is cheaper on base for me 4 USD for a whole chicken, sometimes a little less. The exchange rate pretty much kills me. That is why I offered to try and see if you had a huge freezer. I have two fridges and a standing deep freezer. Lucky me I know. They are all German size though, not American. I'll be reserving a drawer in the deep freezer for the meat. The two rabbits from today added up to maybe a quart of meat and bones. No organs. 
We don't have any Russian shops around here. 

I found Vit C 500mg & E 400IU together in softgels. Do you think I can use this?

What about Flaxseed oil? I found that too.

I saw a package of oils that was fish flax and something with a B that was Omega 3-6-9. Any ideas about that? Good bad?

What about the lake fish? Are there any that we should avoid? Mainly we have trout and something similar to catfish. also lots of herring!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Herring is good!







Plus, we actually can get coconut oil here in the snobby shops.. sometimes Edeka has it in the cooking oils section. I would also check a Reformhaus.. that is like a German health food store that is filled with bizarre, earthy-nutty-crunchy natural home remedies. (German remedies REALLY work-- I take ivy leaves capsules for chest congestion, and it works like magic)
You can get turkey in big cheap packs at the Aldi or Edeka or Norma, I think 3 turkey drums for less than €2.50! Cheeeap. These were big fat HEAVY turkey drums, too. Our problem here is turkey meat-- we cannot usually get it ground here like in USA.. but turkey hearts are easy to snag from any butcher, and those are supposed to count as MM. Isn't heart a muscle meat?

How do you get the digestive formulas and powders everyone is talking about? Customs stops 'em if I order them.







Is there some magic in being military that you can get USA stuff shipped like the prebiotics and probiotics? I want to use some when I begin Grimmi on raw.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

For the most part I don't run into any customs problems. 

I am still looking at where I can get it.
If anyone can point me in a direction? The one from Eagle pack I can get for 22% off right now if I order it by tomorrow night. Is there any cheaper than 7USD for 2.2oz?


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KCandMace
> 
> I found Vit C 500mg & E 400IU together in softgels. Do you think I can use this?


Yes, you can use it. The dosage for vitamin e sounds right but Vitamin C is usually given at a dose based on the dogs bowel tolerance. I would be curious what this was for my dog before buying a combo product that I might not be able to use if my dog needed a lower amount- say 250mg C for example but still 400 iu E.



> Originally Posted By: KCandMaceWhat about Flaxseed oil?


Dogs must make an extra nutrient conversion, turning alphalinoleic acid (ALA) to EPA and DHA to make use of all the goodies found in flaxseed. Many dogs are unable to make the conversion, or convert only a little, making flaxseed not the best choice for dogs.



> Originally Posted By: KCandMaceI saw a package of oils that was fish flax and something with a B that was Omega 3-6-9. Any ideas about that? Good bad?


The B was probably borage oil. Not that the product is bad, but you would be buying more than is needed. A good quality fish body oil is all you need to look for.

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/fats-fatty-acids/



> Originally Posted By: KCandMaceWhat about the lake fish? Are there any that we should avoid? Mainly we have trout and something similar to catfish. also lots of herring!


I would look for hooks in the guts and mouth before feeding.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Ok so I will pass on the flax and the other Omega 3-6-9 oil. 

and we will test run the pups on the Vit C before I use the combo C&E.

As far as the fish. We would be catching it from a private lake. We know the hunter who stocks the lake and if you are caught on private property fishing in a private lake.. Big nono. Plus if you are doing catch and release, if you don't get the hook out you have to take the fish. so I am not so worried about the hooks or any other dangers. We will check just in case though.


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