# Unfortunately, not a fit.



## volumedown (12 mo ago)

This is just a vent post, to anyone who sees it you're 100% fine to leave whatever feedback you'd like. Maybe my story will show how important it is to buy from reputable breeders/meet the parents of your great GSD. It's just closure for me at this point 

If you've seen my last posts on my page, I have a now 6 month old GSD female who had, and still has pretty moderate aggressive issues. Which has worsened since then with the the new addition of aggression. 

I first knew something was off when I got her, she wasn't excited to see anyone, and wanted to run right back to the back yard where she was. (8 weeks) when we brought her home, she warmed up and became our best friend. We took her everywhere with us, inside stores, parks, walks and she was absolutely great. Doing fantastic actually. She let people approach, pet, and didn't mind kids at all. She would follow us off the leash, got over her fear of stairs immediately. She learned, sit, stay, Spin, shake, down faster than I've seen any other dog learn. I took her to the vet for updated shots, and she did great there as well. Just normal, typical development of a puppy. 

One day, at the 3 month old mark she found her voice and began barking at everyone she saw, and dogs. This behavior came from thin air. She would stop listening to commands, and would not redirect her attention even in the presence of treats. In the house, still our same dog we had since 8 weeks. Outside, a completely different personality, and remember, everything was fine up until the 3 month old point. I didn't really mind the barking because she eventually let me redirect her attention and would get over it so that was improvement. 

One day at a park, a little girl my daughter's age was there (3) and Ava was on her back lets lunging, eyes completely white trying to get this little girl who wasn't acting sporadic or crazy. That was the day she truly scared me, and I realized then I did not have a normal dog. These behaviors never stopped after that. Introducing, seeing or even smelling another dog isn't an option for her and believe me I tried. Kids, are absolutely a no go for her. She's lunged and attempted to bite several, and I have to leave the park immediately. And for those who think "how's her exercise?" Its great and always has been. She runs and jumps excellent, very athletic dog. Her recent food aggression is just another "what else"? If you approach her, she gets very stiff, snarls and growls as a grown man, it's actually scary experienceing it. She never showed any food aggression before. She doesnt with her toys or anything else for now. If it was just me and my wife I would just let her eat, but I have a 3 year who who this dog is now bigger than. There's no such thing as her attacking my child. 

On a recent trip to the vet, they tried taking her out back to see how she was and she "lunged" and "tried to bite". The vet was very concerned with her I could tell. She suggested some anxiety medication, both situational and long term. I gave it a try and there's been zero difference. On a road trip I stopped by a family members house in Illinois and gave the situational medication a try. It's a "sedation" type deal and didn't work AN OUNCE. She got out of the uhaul and acted straight horrible. I was actually shocked. Several people told me something was definitely off with her. They suggested the parents were probably very aggressive and it passed down to her. Unfortunately for her, she's now a massive liability and somebody WILL get hurt. I do not have the thousands of dollars for "room and board" training that ultimately wouldn't work, a guy already turned me down for it. She acts like an animal that's been chained up in a backyard and saw one person their entire life. 

I've been around several GSDs and they are outstanding dogs. From highly trained police K9s my step father had to GSDs out of a friend's back yard. 

"Why didn't you train or that dog wasn't aggressive" the dog is absolutely aggressive I don't care if they know how to be at 6 months or not, she did. I reached out to a couple trainers who to my surprise, didn't want to do it. 

Ava was born into the world by negligence. The "breeder" didn't know what he was doing, and I should have never went through with the transaction. Bad lessons learned here, always meet the parents.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Have you considered your options?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> Have you considered your options?


 I do not know at this point. All rescues have turned me down so far due to liability, I can't blame them.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Since your dog doesn’t have a bite history yet, talk to people who train German shepherds and see if anyone in their clubs might be able to work with her and want to take her from you. Although it sounds genetic and dangerous, an experienced handler might be able to stop the behaviors and manage the dog. Euthanasia is a last resort, but if she can’t be handled by anyone, it may be your only option.

When you get your next dog, please ask here for breeder references and help.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> Since your dog doesn’t have a bite history yet, talk to people who train German shepherds and see if anyone in their clubs might be able to work with her and want to take her from you. Although it sounds genetic and dangerous, an experienced handler might be able to stop the behaviors and manage the dog. Euthanasia is a last resort, but if she can’t be handled by anyone, it may be your only option.
> 
> When you get your next dog, please ask here for breeder references and help.


I have been told so far that maybe my only option. I live near people who have tons of land maybe one of them can take her and she can roam free. I now know the references needed, its just an unfortunate lesson


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It happens. I had a rescued dog that bit people. In the first foster home, there were so many dogs he didn't get a chance to attack people, so they didn’t know. If I had it to do over again I never would have taken that dog. But we learn from our mistakes. It made me a better handler.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Mine's doing the same thing compared to when she was 3 months old. She's a puppy developing. She probably deemed that other girl as a threat around your child. My WL lunges & barks mostly wanting to meet people that way. And she has shown signs of fear aggression a bit. I think that can change with age & training. Plus a bit probably has to do with her natural instinct to protect her pack. I know someone who has a WL GSD and runs a home daycare. The dog will bark like crazy, but is fine afterwards once you're at the door. She didn't lunge due to her age. Here at work in the office she has yet to bark especially the odd time a few people come who aren't regulars otherwise it's just the few employees. I know if I take her to meet my folks who I see 2-4 times a year she'd bark. Just need to correct her, train her & show how to properly meet.

I wouldn't expect every GSD to be people friendly especially when they are going through adolescence. That's just my take on it.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> Mine's doing the same thing compared to when she was 3 months old. She's a puppy developing. She probably deemed that other girl as a threat around your child. My WL lunges & barks mostly wanting to meet people that way. Plus a bit probably has to do with her natural instinct to protect her pack. I know someone who has a WL GSD and runs a home daycare. The dog will bark like crazy, but is fine afterwards once you're at the door. She didn't lunge due to her age. Here at work in the office she has yet to bark especially the odd time a few people come who aren't regulars otherwise it's just the few employees. I know if I take her to meet my folks who I see 2-4 times a year she'd bark. Just need to correct her, train her & show how to properly meet.
> 
> I wouldn't expect every GSD to be people friendly especially when they are going through adolescence. That's just my take on it.


That's where yours and mine differ, yours calms down. Mine does not. I have been told she is not defending us, but more herself. I had the same thought with my neighbor, she just wants to meet the guy so I let her get close and her hairs rose up and she lunged with intent to bite with pretty severe barking with no possible redirection


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Prior to yesterday I had to at times grab mine by the scuff during walks while I told her to sit. Prong collar made a huge difference and works better for corrections. Otherwise I just walk the opposite direction. I'm gonna work on her barking, but might need to get a muzzle for training. See how it goes. I'm sure if someone came up to us randomly she'd go wild at this stage. Plus I never want any random strangers coming close to me with her unless we do a proper introduction with the dog.

A few times with my tenants she started lunging to meet them before I got the prong. And barked. So I gave in and took her to them and said off when she jumped. I didn't notice her trying to bite, but will observe. But she will be corrected for lunging at them going forward.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

volumedown said:


> I have been told so far that maybe my only option. I live near people who have tons of land maybe one of them can take her and she can roam free. I now know the references needed, its just an unfortunate lesson



Wait - why do you think that allowing her to roam free is an option? You just stated she has red line aggression and will bite someone. 

This is truly not an option for this dog. At all.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I’m always curious when I see posts like this. What trainers did you talk to? What is their background? What type of dogs do they have as their personal dogs?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> Prior to yesterday I had to at times grab mine by the scuff during walks while I told her to sit. Prong collar made a huge difference and works better for corrections. Otherwise I just walk the opposite direction. I'm gonna work on her barking, but might need to get a muzzle for training. See how it goes. I'm sure if someone came up to us randomly she'd go wild at this stage. Plus I never want any random strangers coming close to me with her unless we do a proper introduction with the dog.


I honestly do mind the barking because if they are just walking, she can be redirected. If anybody comes close that's obviously a bad day. If it was just me and my wife I really would not mind a lot of things as she does. Truth is I don't want anybody near me anyway and she would make that happen. Unfortunately, we are very very active with our child and other kids (friends) and Ava wants zero part with other kids and she would definitely bite if she got loose. It makes us not able to freely enjoy ourselves, and then if I leave ava at home she gets pent up energy and acts worse. Its a lose lose situation


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ohhhh....nevermind. You are the "I won't get a trainer" guy. Very sad situation.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> I’m always curious when I see posts like this. What trainers did you talk to? What is their background? What type of dogs do they have as their personal dogs?


 I took her to two vets, one was mobile for shots, the other was in office plus pets mart for a consultation. All of them did not know I took it anywhere else and they all said these same exact things. It's clearly a genetic issue. A trainer that was local with pretty good reviews with 20 years experience said the same thing and I would be wasting my money. I mean maybe somebody else could have told me something different but the trend was going all in the same direction.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

When I was a kid my parents got this Mini Schnauzer from a puppy mill. This is like 35 years ago. They had no idea what they were doing. Dog was a genetic nightmare. Aggression to anyone outside the family he was viscous. Horrible allergies. Could not take him anywhere. He didn't do anything but scratch. They kept the dog alive despite how miserable he was. Sometimes it is a mercy to let the dog be put down. It's hard to say it but I believe it true.

Fast forward to my first dog a GSD that I got off Craigslist from some guys back yard. I guess I didn't learn from my parents. It's turned out ok. It's terrifying how bad it could have turned out. He has been a difficult dog.

Your not alone and I understand. Sorry you have to go through this. Thank you for sharing.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> ohhhh....nevermind. You are the "I won't get a trainer" guy. Very sad situation.


Most trainers are a waste of money who won't tell you their tactics because it can be used at home for free guy, off with that. I'm not talking about show room trainers or experienced behaviorist either, so no talking bad on them.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> ohhhh....nevermind. You are the "I won't get a trainer" guy. Very sad situation.


She was seen by several people by the way if you didn't read my post. So I did get direction.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> I took her to two vets, one was mobile for shots, the other was in office plus pets mart for a consultation. All of them did not know I took it anywhere else and they all said these same exact things. It's clearly a genetic issue. A trainer that was local with pretty good reviews with 20 years experience said the same thing and I would be wasting my money. I mean maybe somebody else could have told me something different but the trend was going all in the same direction.


You didn’t answer my questions. There was a reason behind it. You do you.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Apex1 said:


> When I was a kid my parents got this Mini Schnauzer from a puppy mill. This is like 35 years ago. They had no idea what they were doing. Dog was a genetic nightmare. Aggression to anyone outside the family he was viscous. Horrible allergies. Could not take him anywhere. He didn't do anything but scratch. They kept the dog alive despite how miserable he was. Sometimes it is a mercy to let the dog be put down. It's hard to say it but I believe it true.
> 
> Fast forward to my first dog a GSD that I got off Craigslist from some guys back yard. I guess I didn't learn from my parents. It's turned out ok. It's terrifying how bad it could have turned out. He has been a difficult dog.
> 
> Your not alone and I understand. Sorry you have to go through this. Thank you for sharing.


Yeah it's a pretty harsh lesson especially with bigger dogs. I've learned though.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> She was seen by several people by the way if you didn't read my post. So I did get direction.


Just for the record, you said she was seen by one trainer. You said nothing about said trainer. 


volumedown said:


> Most trainers are a waste of money who won't tell you their tactics because it can be used at home for free guy, off with that. I'm not talking about show room trainers or experienced behaviorist either, so no talking bad on them.


Another point for future reference, if you were capable of doing what an experienced trainer is at home you wouldn’t be making this post.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> You didn’t answer my questions. There was a reaso behind it. You do you.


Oh, did you want their veterinary licenses/educational back ground or what? Lol I got several opinions on what I should do and how to go about it. Did I ask what I dogs they had? German Shepherd rescues wouldn't even take her so hopefully that clears up some confusion you may have had with my answer


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> Oh, did you want their veterinary licenses/educational back ground or what? Lol I got several opinions on what I should do and how to go about it. Did I ask what I dogs they had? German Shepherd rescues wouldn't even take her so hopefully that clears up some confusion you may have had with my answer


I didn’t ask what your vet had to say. I asked about the trainers that supposedly saw your dog. Vets are medical experts, not dog trainers. Key difference.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> Just for the record, you said she was seen by one trainer. You said nothing about said trainer.
> 
> Another point for future reference, if you were capable of doing what an experienced trainer is at home you wouldn’t be making this post.


That's not true by the slightest and you know it.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> I didn’t ask what your vet had to say. I asked about the trainers that supposedly saw your dog. Vets are medical experts, not dog trainers. Key difference.


Not sure what you're trying to accomplish guy, one guy on here replied with a "genetic nightmare" situation of another breed and that about sums up my experience. Unfortunately, you don't get to see her day to day behavior so there's no sense of going back and forth about it


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What exactly do you want any of us to do? You come - we give advice. You're totally rotten to people who try to help you. You come again - we give advice. Again you are rotten. Do you want us emotionally invested in your situation? We are. For the dog. But nobody here needs to take abuse from you. Return the puppy to the breeder. If that's not an option, then you do you. 

You are correct. There is no sense going back and forth. You just want to fight with people. Nobody should be giving you that satisfaction.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

How can we help you?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> What exactly do you want any of us to do? You come - we give advice. You're totally rotten to people who try to help you. You come again - we give advice. Again you are rotten. Do you want us emotionally invested in your situation? We are. For the dog. But nobody here needs to take abuse from you. Return the puppy to the breeder. If that's not an option, then you do you.
> 
> You are correct. There is no sense going back and forth. You just want to fight with people. Nobody should be giving you that satisfaction.


I actually dont want to fight with anyone. Nobody is taking abuse from anyone, it's a GSD thread online. I don't believe in trainers for day to day life activities that 99% of dogs develop on their own with loving, active families like us. I got the dog from a backyard breeder who clearly has genetic issues taking place from aggressive parents. Who's fault is that? Mine. Advice isn't "get a trainer" I want to know who's DEALT with these issues. Not throwing thousands at someone who won't fix my issues.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Sunflowers said:


> How can we help you?


Her time is done, she will need to be with someone who does not mind the liability issues she has. I just came here to share a tough lesson learned.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It seems the OP is just here to vent and recommend that puppy buyers should meet the parents of the litter they are considering. Not asking for any advice today.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

volumedown said:


> Her time is done, she will need to be with someone who does not mind the liability issues she has. I just came here to share a tough lesson learned.


Thought so.
Problem is, if this is a truly aggressive dog, no one will want her. 
Very sad situation.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Such a sad situation. I agree about the backyard breeders but truth be told it is complicated and even dogs from top genetic lines can have issues. There is not enough information given for me to pass judgement on this dog, but I do know that most, but not all dogs, with similar problems can be trained and trust can be built with the owner to work out these issues. Training doesn't have to come from a professional trainer but if one isn't willing or capable of researching and learning how to DIY, the right trainer can be invaluable. In my experience vets are great at what they do, but it isn't training or even focused on dog behavior. It seems to me that the OP is wanting validation for his decision to "have closure" and has given up on the problem. Given that there is a young child in the home, this may be the best decision. As to next steps, euthansia may be the only option because finding someone to take on the problem at this point will be difficult.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Video of this 6 month old female GSD in "moderately aggressive" situation possible?


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## Cheese Dog (11 mo ago)

volumedown said:


> This is just a vent post, to anyone who sees it you're 100% fine to leave whatever feedback you'd like. Maybe my story will show how important it is to buy from reputable breeders/meet the parents of your great GSD. It's just closure for me at this point
> 
> If you've seen my last posts on my page, I have a now 6 month old GSD female who had, and still has pretty moderate aggressive issues. Which has worsened since then with the the new addition of aggression.
> 
> ...


I've read your other posts too and imo your dog just sounds like a normal German Shepherd. You just don't know how to handle her. Veterinarians are not trainers like other posters have stated and they favor positive only tactics that are useless when it comes to German Shepherds. When these force free trainers can't handle simple aggression they resort to drugs. This is becoming a real problem...the blind leading the blind.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I’m always curious when I see posts like this. What trainers did you talk to? What is their background? What type of dogs do they have as their personal dogs?


That was my first thought. In the past, I was the only trainer in this area who would take dogs with a bite history as none of the others wanted to since all they do is clicker and treat training. OP, please have her evaluated by someone who has extensive experience with GSDs. I realize that I haven't seen her. But vets often don't do well with difficult dogs as most are not trained in behavior. Have you contacted the breeder? What is the situation there; their dogs etc? Rescues are also leery of taking on these dogs because most are not able to handle them and don't want the responsibility. I don't know if this pup can be saved but I do get the feeling that not many knowledgeable people have taken a look at her. OP, this is meant with respect. I understand your dilemma. But please, do not let her go to a farm where she can "run loose" as Jax said. It's the best way to create an accident and she will have to be killed. I hope you get some clear answers soon and that you are not in a hurry to put her down. Where are you located?


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

It will be a closure if it is confirmed that her bad genetics is the problem, I think euthanasia would be the best option for the dog and human.

HOWEVER, you should get her evaluated by someone who has extensive experience with GSD as @wolfy dog advised.

Otherwise that closure would come with guilt that you could have saved her.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

volumedown said:


> I have been told so far that maybe my only option. I live near people who have tons of land maybe one of them can take her and she can roam free. I now know the references needed, its just an unfortunate lesson


All this will do is lead her to killing small animals, and being less and less approachable by people....you just don't let dogs "roam free". 

I am sorry, this is really a terrible situation. It sounds like there is something truly wrong with her - her physiology, her "wiring"...for a 3 month old pup to change this radically???? Either she is damaged in some way or you aren't reading her correctly....and I am not trying to hurt your feelings....but I have NEVER seen this kind of behavior in a baby puppy!

Have a comprehensive workup done - if you can afford it....but don't look for a fairy tale placement if this pup is truly this off the charts for behaviors.

Lee


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

A video would be super useful.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

3ymum said:


> I think euthanasia would be the best option for the dog and human.


Why do I just keep coming back to this sentence? 😈 

Add me in for advocating that the right trainer can make all the difference. I spoke "large working class dog" very fluently before I got my shepherd and after that I had to learn to speak specifically "shepherd" to get thru to my knucklehead and make him a manageable dog. And it took working with a trainer who also works with border patrol and the police. Funny thing, I take my dog to the trainer's vet and they can manage him fine and tell me how sweet a boy I have compared to the trainer's dogs but I take my dog to other vets and they are muzzling him and piling on him in the back room.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> ohhhh....nevermind. You are the "I won't get a trainer" guy. Very sad situation.


I thought he said he couldn’t afford one.


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

Hellish said:


> Why do I just keep coming back to this sentence? 😈


ONLY IF confirmed with bad genetic problem, not without training!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

volumedown said:


> I actually dont want to fight with anyone. Nobody is taking abuse from anyone, it's a GSD thread online. I don't believe in trainers for day to day life activities that 99% of dogs develop on their own with loving, active families like us. I got the dog from a backyard breeder who clearly has genetic issues taking place from aggressive parents. Who's fault is that? Mine. Advice isn't "get a trainer" I want to know who's DEALT with these issues. Not throwing thousands at someone who won't fix my issues.


You got a dog with questionable genetics. No one is arguing with you about that. You obviously don’t want advice or suggestions but the very people you are discounting are the ones who have dealt with aggression and saved their dogs. If you don’t want to deal with it, then give up the dog. But don’t say trainers won’t fix your issues. If you were even the slightest bit polite to someone like bearshandler, you would get a solution from him or from Jax or several others who posted. If you shut down dialogue, you won’t get any help. If you want to share your general location, we could find you a decent trainer who could train you. The solution is not board and train for the dog it’s training for you to become a competent handler. You have a fearful dog who you said makes you nervous about what she’s going to do. It is your behavior that is allowing her to act on her nerves. As her owner, it is your responsibility to show her a different way to behave.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am ok with being the bad guy. I will say this to my dying breath, kids are my line in the sand. ANY dog that shows aggression toward a child needs to go. Never mind a breed that is supposed to adore children. I can put up with a dog preferring to not interact, but nothing more.
IF this dog has been evaluated, IF this is aggression and not misunderstood excitement/frustration, take her out for a cheeseburger and say good bye. 
Zero tolerance for that behavior.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabi, agreed. I would love to know what a good evaluator would advice, not some random back yard trainer so the OP would know how to proceed in finding the best home, maybe with the help of a club if the dog is considered sane. A very common nick name for this age is Land Shark for good reason. Mine were eye openers to a whole new world of dog training. But mine came from a good breeder with great support from them.
OP: please answer the following questions so we can help you hopefully: Who is the breeder, have you contacted them, where are you located? I understand you may be at work and don't have time to answer but at least you owe it to her to give us information since you came here for answers.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Cheese Dog said:


> I've read your other posts too and imo your dog just sounds like a normal German Shepherd. You just don't know how to handle her. Veterinarians are not trainers like other posters have stated and they favor positive only tactics that are useless when it comes to German Shepherds. When these force free trainers can't handle simple aggression they resort to drugs. This is becoming a real problem...the blind leading the blind.


No german shepherd I've ever seen, from puppy to retired K9 acts like she does. Thanks though.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> I am ok with being the bad guy. I will say this to my dying breath, kids are my line in the sand. ANY dog that shows aggression toward a child needs to go. Never mind a breed that is supposed to adore children. I can put up with a dog preferring to not interact, but nothing more.
> IF this dog has been evaluated, IF this is aggression and not misunderstood excitement/frustration, take her out for a cheeseburger and say good bye.
> Zero tolerance for that behavior.


Exactly what my thoughts are. This is not misunderstood excitement. German Shepherds are outstanding family dogs. Any one that ive come across has been stern and aware, but ok in almost any situation.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> I thought he said he couldn’t afford one.


I can't afford room and board, or thousands on multiple weekly time frames. Not many I know can.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> Sabi, agreed. I would love to know what a good evaluator would advice, not some random back yard trainer so the OP would know how to proceed in finding the best hoe, maybe with the help of a club if the dog is considered sane. A very common nick name for this age is Land Shark for good reason. Mine were eye openers to a whole new world of dog training. But mine came from a good breeder with great support from them.
> OP: please answer the following questions so we can help you hopefully: Who is the breeder, have you contacted them, where are you located? I understand you may be at work and don't have time to answer but at least you owe it to her to give us information since you came here for answers.


This was a backyard breeder from the Dallas area. I have since relocated to West Virginia. There unfortunately no such thing to contact them it wasn't that type of transaction. But I got her at 8 weeks old.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> That was my first thought. In the past, I was the only trainer in this area who would take dogs with a bite history as none of the others wanted to since all they do is clicker and treat training. OP, please have her evaluated by someone who has extensive experience with GSDs. I realize that I haven't seen her. But vets often don't do well with difficult dogs as most are not trained in behavior. Have you contacted the breeder? What is the situation there; their dogs etc? Rescues are also leery of taking on these dogs because most are not able to handle them and don't want the responsibility. I don't know if this pup can be saved but I do get the feeling that not many knowledgeable people have taken a look at her. OP, this is meant with respect. I understand your dilemma. But please, do not let her go to a farm where she can "run loose" as Jax said. It's the best way to create an accident and she will have to be killed. I hope you get some clear answers soon and that you are not in a hurry to put her down. Where are you located?


I understand vets aren't "behavior experts" but multiple people I've talked to and saw her in person all told me the same thing without knowing eachother. That's pretty evident to me something is in fact off here. I am located in West Virginia. I am ALL for keeping her but her reactions towards kids is what truly scares me here. That is a line that can not be crossed. And I meant by someone who has a wide open area for her. Not just cut loose.


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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

We live four houses down from an aggressive GSD. And we’re in the city so four houses = 100 ft so we see that dog often. It’s owners are an older couple, no kids, one other dog. The dog is aggressive to people and dogs other than for the owners and the other dog in the home. They don’t let the dog interact with anyone or anything out on walks, let people know proactively he’s aggressive and apologize profusely for the behavior. My only point is there are people out there who will provide a loving home and have the right environment and capacity/tolerance to do so. He’s a rescue and they knew what they were getting into. 

Maybe you’re right that there’s no hope and maybe where you live there aren’t any options or a good way to explore them. But I think everyone on this thread would like to know you’re exhausting all options because we care about the dog getting a fair shake. That’s why people keep asking for your general location (to help you find options) or for video to see if they can pick up on something you might be missing. I know you don’t want advice. This isn’t advice - it’s just a comment about why you’re getting feedback. All of us are here for a reason which is that we have a strong affinity for this breed of dog and we all know the investment of time, energy and effort required for it to pay off. It seems you’ve certainly learned some lessons from this experience. Maybe, there are a few more lessons still to be learned. Not advice. Just a thought.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

WNGD said:


> Video of this 6 month old female GSD in "moderately aggressive" situation possible?





LuvShepherds said:


> You got a dog with questionable genetics. No one is arguing with you about that. You obviously don’t want advice or suggestions but the very people you are discounting are the ones who have dealt with aggression and saved their dogs. If you don’t want to deal with it, then give up the dog. But don’t say trainers won’t fix your issues. If you were even the slightest bit polite to someone like bearshandler, you would get a solution from him or from Jax or several others who posted. If you shut down dialogue, you won’t get any help. If you want to share your general location, we could find you a decent trainer who could train you. The solution is not board and train for the dog it’s training for you to become a competent handler. You have a fearful dog who you said makes you nervous about what she’s going to do. It is your behavior that is allowing her to act on her nerves. As her owner, it is your responsibility to show her a different way to behave.


The problem is here, you guys think these dogs can all be fixed. I have been around these dogs my entire life. I've owned several up until the day they died. Dogs do have issues that can't be fixed. Truth is, Ava isn't right. And that's okay I've accepted it. I am trying to figure out options for her.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bknmaizey said:


> We live four houses down from an aggressive GSD. And we’re in the city so four houses = 100 ft so we see that dog often. It’s owners are an older couple, no kids, one other dog. The dog is aggressive to people and dogs other than for the owners and the other dog in the home. They don’t let the dog interact with anyone or anything out on walks, let people know proactively he’s aggressive and apologize profusely for the behavior. My only point is there are people out there who will provide a loving home and have the right environment and capacity/tolerance to do so. He’s a rescue and they knew what they were getting into.
> 
> Maybe you’re right that there’s no hope and maybe where you live there aren’t any options or a good way to explore them. But I think everyone on this thread would like to know you’re exhausting all options because we care about the dog getting a fair shake. That’s why people keep asking for your general location (to help you find options) or for video to see if they can pick up on something you might be missing. I know you don’t want advice. This isn’t advice - it’s just a comment about why you’re getting feedback. All of us are here for a reason which is that we have a strong affinity for this breed of dog and we all know the investment of time, energy and effort required for it to pay off. It seems you’ve certainly learned some lessons from this experience. Maybe, there are a few more lessons still to be learned. Not advice. Just a thought.


I have provided my location several times. I know there are options for her, but with my child and other kids she's becoming to be not an option for me. It's completely selfish of me to keep a dog I KNOW would attack and permanently damage a child for the rest of its life. That's not an option to me.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

WNGD said:


> Video of this 6 month old female GSD in "moderately aggressive" situation possible?


I'd love to get one. I try to avoid her and kids now at all times for fear of getting loose. She acts moderately okay somedays with adults and I'm able redirect her attention immediately, and then others she acts like she's never seen a person before. 

Just picture a 4 year old running by and a 45 pound GSD going absolutely crazy, and can't for the life of you redirect her attention even with treats in your hand for her to smell and get the attention away. Up on her hind legs, hair straight up viscously barking and growling. Eyes almost completely white. The child not even being near yours or acting sporadic. For that reason ALONE I can't keep her. I will never allow a child to be hurt because I wanted to keep a dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If she's that dangerous then there aren't "options", there's AN option. You can't keep her - fine. But you can't pass her off to anyone else either, that would be grossly irresponsible. 

It sounds like you've already made up your mind, so I'm not sure what you're expecting to get out of this thread, unless it's validation for your decision.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If she's that dangerous then there aren't "options", there's AN option. You can't keep her - fine. But you can't pass her off to anyone else either, that would be grossly irresponsible.
> 
> It sounds like you've already made up your mind, so I'm not sure what you're expecting to get out of this thread, unless it's validation for your decision.


Well the first thing I said was this was a vent post.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

That's a shame, but that can happen with a backyard breeder especially if you didn't meet the parents. It would be different if she was lunging to greet the kids along with tail wagging & barking. My first reaction was perhaps it's fear based, but it seems to be pure aggression. Sad. Not in your control.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This was a vent post and a warning about purchasing poorly bred dogs, especially without seeing the parents.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> That's a shame, but that can happen with a backyard breeder especially if you didn't meet the parents. It would be different if she was lunging to greet the kids along with tail wagging & barking. My first reaction was perhaps it's fear based, but it seems to be pure aggression. Sad. Not in your control.


No wagging tail or sense of excitement whatsoever. It's 100% aggression towards kids who aren't doing anything or paying her any attention.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

volumedown said:


> Most trainers are a waste of money who won't tell you their tactics because it can be used at home for free guy, off with that. I'm not talking about show room trainers or experienced behaviorist either, so no talking bad on them.


I don't know of a single reputable trainer that wouldn't be happy to discuss their training methods with prospective clients. I certainly wouldn't hire one unless I knew what their general training philosophy was, what kind of tools they use (or won't use), what sort of results I can expect and how we would go about getting those results, and a general timeline as long as I put in the work. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this would be a closely guarded secret, or what you mean by "show room trainers". When you hire a trainer, you're SUPPOSED to practice on your own between sessions. In fact, that's a frequent pet peeve, clients who don't follow through and do their homework between sessions. A good trainer isn't training your dog for you, they're teaching YOU to train your dog, they will see things you don't and can problem solve issues because they know more about dog training and behavior than you do, based on their years of experience. (By "you" I don't mean just you personally, I'm referring to any person who hires a trainer. )



Bearshandler said:


> Just for the record, you said she was seen by one trainer. You said nothing about said trainer.
> 
> Another point for future reference, if you were capable of doing what an experienced trainer is at home you wouldn’t be making this post.


Exactly. We don't know who this trainer is or what their qualifications are. Are they any good? Do they know what they're talking about? Do they have experience with working breeds or just nice pet dogs? No idea. And If everyone could just read about training methods online and then implement them successfully every time, there wouldn't be a need for dog trainers at all, ever, so that's just ridiculous.



volumedown said:


> I don't believe in trainers for day to day life activities that 99% of dogs develop on their own with loving, active families like us. I got the dog from a backyard breeder who clearly has genetic issues taking place from aggressive parents. Who's fault is that? Mine. Advice isn't "get a trainer" I want to know who's DEALT with these issues. Not throwing thousands at someone who won't fix my issues.


But what if people who have dealt with similar issues _did_ solve them by getting help from an experienced trainer? You've made your opinion about dog trainers pretty clear, you've decided it won't help so you're not even interested in trying. That's your choice, she's your dog so you get to make that decision. But a good trainer isn't necessarily going to cost thousands of dollars. I don't know what the typical hourly rate is in WV, but I've never paid more than $100 a session and I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area where everything is more expensive. 



volumedown said:


> The problem is here, you guys think these dogs can all be fixed.


We don't, though. Not a single person insisted that all dogs can be fixed and many said the exact opposite. The problem is that it's impossible for strangers on the internet to know which is which. Maybe she can be, maybe she can't. I have no idea, and neither does anyone else here. We don't even know how accurately you're reading the situation, or if you're truly capable of doing so.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

I've been following this post and this situation is terrible for all involved. But since I can't offer any useful advice that hasn't already been given, I can add a little levity.


wolfy dog said:


> Sabi, agreed. I would love to know what a good evaluator would advice, not some random back yard trainer so the OP would know how to proceed in finding the best hoe,


I know you meant best HOME, but I'm going to admit that this made me giggle despite the seriousness of the topic.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't know of a single reputable trainer that wouldn't be happy to discuss their training methods with prospective clients. I certainly wouldn't hire one unless I knew what their general training philosophy was, what kind of tools they use (or won't use), what sort of results I can expect and how we would go about getting those results, and a general timeline as long as I put in the work. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this would be a closely guarded secret, or what you mean by "show room trainers". When you hire a trainer, you're SUPPOSED to practice on your own between sessions. In fact, that's a frequent pet peeve, clients who don't follow through and do their homework between sessions. A good trainer isn't training your dog for you, they're teaching YOU to train your dog, they will see things you don't and can problem solve issues because they know more about dog training and behavior than you do, based on their years of experience. (By "you" I don't mean just you personally, I'm referring to any person who hires a trainer. )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Around here, it's 175 an hour. That's the cheapest I've seen. That's over 1400 a month if I went t


Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't know of a single reputable trainer that wouldn't be happy to discuss their training methods with prospective clients. I certainly wouldn't hire one unless I knew what their general training philosophy was, what kind of tools they use (or won't use), what sort of results I can expect and how we would go about getting those results, and a general timeline as long as I put in the work. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this would be a closely guarded secret, or what you mean by "show room trainers". When you hire a trainer, you're SUPPOSED to practice on your own between sessions. In fact, that's a frequent pet peeve, clients who don't follow through and do their homework between sessions. A good trainer isn't training your dog for you, they're teaching YOU to train your dog, they will see things you don't and can problem solve issues because they know more about dog training and behavior than you do, based on their years of experience. (By "you" I don't mean just you personally, I'm referring to any person who hires a trainer. )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The gernal default is poor training and that's not what's happening here. I've been told numerous times this is typical puppy behavior and it makes me laugh out lound. Typical puppy behavior isn't trying to attack kids for no reason. I'm accurately reading the situation. The food aggression scares my wife to death. This dog won't wag her tail or respond to her name with food infront of her. What if my 3 year old decided to walk to close? That's about as accurate of a reading one can get. It's sad all around.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm just going to throw out there that bribing a dog with treats will never work in that scenario.

I understand that you have been around a few GSDs and this one is different.

Without hands on that dog, I can't say what's going on, but in my experience, owners almost always mis diagnose their dogs. They just don't typically have the experience to handle a high drive, frustrated dog. I'm not saying that's your particular situation, but it is something I see regularly.

I was a professional dog trainer for a decade before I went through handler school. My dog had bitten several handlers and was aggressive towards everyone, including me. She bit be 4 times the first week I had her. After a couple months, she was a different dog. She ended up retiring in my home and her best buddy was my 4 year old granddaughter.

Another anecdotal story that is closer to this situation. My granddaughter's other grandma had an ASL pup. He was much as you describe. He would draw blood and leave bruises all over the owner and the grandkids. Crazy reactive to everything, including small kids and dogs. He injured his owner hitting the end of the leash trying to go after a guy.

He was fine after a couple weeks with me and ended up a nice family dog after a couple months. He still doesn't settle well, but he's safe and regularly goes out in public to baseball games and to the hardware.

Again, I'm not trying to impose any of this onto your dog, as I haven't met the dog. I'm just making a point that I don't feel this dog has been evaluated by a qualified individual.

Veterinarians are not trainers or behaviorist. Pet smart trainers are not trainers or behaviorist.

I suggest you contact Larry Krohn at Pac Masters.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> I'm just going to throw out there that bribing a dog with treats will never work in that scenario.
> 
> I understand that you have been around a few GSDs and this one is different.
> 
> ...


In the scenario you listed, what exactly did you do in a couple of weeks to completely turn the dog around? It's a genuine question. 

I know vets are not behaviorist and pets mart training is low class. I just mentioned several people all told me the same thing without knowing eachother. By biggest concern is her severely injuring a child. I can deal with food aggression, or barking at adults/dogs. I can 'usually' redirect her attention with those issues but somedays she won't allow it. I am very consistent with how we do this as well. I know treats in those situations aren't the way, but when I say she won't redirect her attention, she won't redirect even with that and she's the most highly food driven dog I've owned.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Wanting to attack kids like that is just scary. When did this start occurring? Did she always show signs when you first got her?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> Wanting to attack kids like that is just scary. When did this start occurring? Did she always show signs when you first got her?


No. The only thing off putting was that she wasn't happy to see us, but we figured she was scared. She quickly warmed up and went to stores with us, I took her to the park everyday with my daughter and other kids would pet her ETC. This behavior randomly started and has never shown any signs of improvement, it's probably gotten worse to be honest.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

volumedown said:


> The problem is here, you guys think these dogs can all be fixed. I have been around these dogs my entire life. I've owned several up until the day they died. Dogs do have issues that can't be fixed. Truth is, Ava isn't right. And that's okay I've accepted it. I am trying to figure out options for her.


Nope. I just want to see a 6 month old dog that can't be controlled and is feared. I'm just curious.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

volumedown said:


> In the scenario you listed, what exactly did you do in a couple of weeks to completely turn the dog around? It's a genuine question.
> 
> I know vets are not behaviorist and pets mart training is low class. I just mentioned several people all told me the same thing without knowing eachother. By biggest concern is her severely injuring a child. I can deal with food aggression, or barking at adults/dogs. I can 'usually' redirect her attention with those issues but somedays she won't allow it. I am very consistent with how we do this as well. I know treats in those situations aren't the way, but when I say she won't redirect her attention, she won't redirect even with that and she's the most highly food driven dog I've owned.


I can sum up my training with this particular dog, but that doesn't mean that I would handle your dog in the same manner.

I put a drag line on him in the house and kept him from practicing bad behaviors. I taught him how to play tug and fetch with rules. I lured obedience with food and then transitioned to a toy. I worked impulse control with down stays and place commands. I ran his butt off at the hill twice a day, working on obedience and impulse control while having a blast. I instilled house rules, with rewards and corrections as needed.

I mean no disrespect by this but your posts show your lack of understanding of how to handle a dog in drive. My dog will work ultra hard for food when that's the most interesting thing available at the time. You throw in something more interesting and food is worthless as a reward. This is really common in the breed. Toys, or more importantly the games with the toys, are typically higher value than food.

For me, it's about establishing engagement and relationship, and then backing that up with consistent rules. I can't condense 45 years of dog training experience into a forum post, but I can say that I still learn about training dogs and I've trained hundreds. 

I'm not saying you are wrong about your dog as I've seen genetically aggressive dogs that are beyond my abilities. I'm just saying that I hope you give this dog a shot with a real trainer.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Have you tried a prong collar and walking with a toy? I need to teach my girl place outside during walks. My trainer already said for me to stop using the prong I got yesterday. She said just turn around when I see another dog coming. I know currently she won't last long with place due to the distant between the other dog but a toy might work better than a treat. She's improved a lot with dogs barking a bit from their yards at her. If she's happy to see your family it seems she could be worked with. Some dogs during training aren't food or toy driven so try finding something else. Perhaps a big stick? When she barks around other kids now what type of corrections have you tried so far? Or taking baby steps with her. Start at a distant she's comfortable with and then lure her back to you with a leave it command if she knows it before she reacts. She has hormones developing too.


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## Cheese Dog (11 mo ago)

Just throwing this out there.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

David Winners said:


> I mean no disrespect by this but your posts show your lack of understanding of how to handle a dog in drive. My dog will work ultra hard for food when that's the most interesting thing available at the time. You throw in something more interesting and food is worthless as a reward. This is really common in the breed. Toys, or more importantly the games with the toys, are typically higher value than food.


Boy, can I relate to this! Cava is extremely food motivated, to the point where if I’m trying to show her something new I can’t use a food lure. She is SO focused on getting the food that she’s not paying attention to what I want her to do. Her natural enthusiasm for training goes into overdrive in sometimes hilarious ways. Fortunately she is very good about following my hand, so I can use an empty hand then reward with the other hand. But at flyball I could drop a steak on the ground and she’d totally ignore it. It’s all about the game - ball and tug.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

volumedown said:


> In the scenario you listed, what exactly did you do in a couple of weeks to completely turn the dog around? It's a genuine question.


I see David has already responded to this question, but since this video deals with a young GSD that numerous "trainers" said was hopeless, I thought it might be helpful for the OP to see and hear what Tom Davis does and says about a very similar dog/situation...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This dog is too young for a prong IMO, and it could make things worse unless the OB is there first and commands are proofed outside of reactive episodes.

This is far more about black and white leadership and staying calm than any technique or piece of equipment.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Boy, can I relate to this! Cava is extremely food motivated, to the point where if I’m trying to show her something new I can’t use a food lure. She is SO focused on getting the food that she’s not paying attention to what I want her to do. Her natural enthusiasm for training goes into overdrive in sometimes hilarious ways. Fortunately she is very good about following my hand, so I can use an empty hand then reward with the other hand. But at flyball I could drop a steak on the ground and she’d totally ignore it. It’s all about the game - ball and tug.


So currency and motivation are important! Probably the most important aspect to effective training, right in front of timing 

It is so important to look at the dog and do what the dog needs instead of what we think should work.

It took me a long time to learn that.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am glad that David Winners has joined this thread. I suggest that all of us who don't have a lot of experience handling these kind of dogs, shouldn't give advice. It is only confusing to the OP. I realize that the OP originally just wanted to vent but opening up a thread like this, is basically asking for advice. OP, if you "just" want vent about a potentially life or death situation concerning a pup, it is only bound to go in a different direction. I have worked with aggressive (pet) dogs but not as much as David, so I am not even going there. What I do know here is that information is missing, vets are not trained in behavior, and everyone can call themselves a trainer, no matter if they said the same thing as the OP mentioned; that doesn't make it a good evaluation. I wonder why the OP doesn't mention his location. It feels like it has fallen on deaf ears.
By the way, how can you determine if this aggression is genetic? The fact that the parents are aggressive could be genetic of they were mishandled, not exercised, mismanaged or untrained.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

volumedown said:


> Exactly what my thoughts are. This is not misunderstood excitement. German Shepherds are outstanding family dogs. Any one that ive come across has been stern and aware, but ok in almost any situation.


But you did read what I wrote. IF she has been evaluated. 
I have a dog with high prey drive who is not used to children. I don't allow uncontrolled access. Ever. She has grabbed at running children. I can chalk that up to herding or prey drive or whatever. But I still don't allow it. She knows that any such response will be met with a swift and severe correction. 
You chose this dog. You made a decision and I am totally onboard with euthanizing a dog that is aggressive towards a child, I will back you to the wall on that. If and only if the dog has been given a fair chance to explain itself. That means a qualified evaluation by a competent trainer with underlying medical issues ruled out.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

I think David hit the nail on the head with this statement:
"For me, it's about establishing engagement and relationship, and then backing that up with consistent rules." 

This is critical in building trust. That trust has to go both ways so that the dog trusts you to keep them safe, to be consistent and predictable so that they can feel secure in all situations. Conversely the human has to learn to read the dog's body language and communication signals to be know how to diffuse or divert situations that may arise. It pains me to think that this 6 month old really hasn't been given a chance to grow into a relationship. Relationship building can take time and a lot of work with these dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

OP said he’s in West Virginia.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I just wanted to explain a bit further about the training I outlined above.

At no time in the first week was the dog exposed to a trigger, other than living in my house with my dogs. I find it very beneficial to set the dog up for success by establishing communication and some OB before working on problem behaviors with very reactive dogs.

Later on, when I felt the dog was ready, we worked our way towards triggers. Our first real outing was a park with 10 youth baseball games going on and he did fine after working outside his threshold for a bit. Next, we added corrections and more strict criteria for behavior in incremental steps until he could lay by the bleachers during a game with good manners.

Here is the dog at Niagara Falls where we hiked all the trails and hung out in the crowds. He ended up being a good mentor dog for my pup until the pup was faster and stronger and he felt challenged.


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## cocobarksalot (Oct 28, 2021)

AE316 said:


> That's a shame, but that can happen with a backyard breeder especially if you didn't meet the parents. It would be different if she was lunging to greet the kids along with tail wagging & barking. My first reaction was perhaps it's fear based, but it seems to be pure aggression. Sad. Not in your control.


How do you distinguish fear based and pure aggression?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It's a puppy...that's how.

Not to mention, owner starts seeing some barking and reactive behavior at 4 months but is unwilling to consult a trainer. Now at 6 months the behavior is worse (HUGE SURPRISE right?!). Now, this puppy "has" to be put down because it is defective.somehow. 

If this weren't a super common story it might be believable, but it is super common. 

Obviously without seeing this puppy first hand it's impossible to say, but odds are greatly in favor of there being nothing at all wrong with the puppy that some training wouldn't fix. Hopefully the OP will realize that and get a good trainer on board! It's just a puppy...


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

True a prong won't solve the issue. Similar to mine during walks. Hence why my trainer already told me to stop with the prongs I got. I gave in due to being impatient. Not working with the pups threshold. She owns GSDs and has worked with them for years. I'll take it a step back and do as she advised. Turn around from a distant seeing another dog coming. Engage with her in a positive way with treat or ball.

Avoid the main road for now unless she's comfortable not chasing cars on a flat collar. On my property if we're out for potty break she'll bark at dogs at a distant. But when we're on the other side of the yard a bit closer to the main road and people walk pass my house she won't bark when she's engaged in fetch. She doesn't care.

I'll stop with the advice due to my inexperience.

I'm gonna slow it down and do baby steps even if that means going backwards than pushing her too fast.

Inside her OB is going great. Outside there's still challenges at times but it's slowly coming along especially with the leave it command now. I know all this takes time and will pay off. Just gotta slow it down. She is skittish and we're slowly working on her confidence. Setting her up for success not failure.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

techinstructor said:


> I think David hit the nail on the head with this statement:
> "For me, it's about establishing engagement and relationship, and then backing that up with consistent rules."
> 
> This is critical in building trust. That trust has to go both ways so that the dog trusts you to keep them safe, to be consistent and predictable so that they can feel secure in all situations. Conversely the human has to learn to read the dog's body language and communication signals to be know how to diffuse or divert situations that may arise. It pains me to think that this 6 month old really hasn't been given a chance to grow into a relationship. Relationship building can take time and a lot of work with these dogs.


Yeah, it pains me as well because there is a great relationship with all of us, minus the recent food aggression.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's a puppy...that's how.
> 
> Not to mention, owner starts seeing some barking and reactive behavior at 4 months but is unwilling to consult a trainer. Now at 6 months the behavior is worse (HUGE SURPRISE right?!). Now, this puppy "has" to be put down because it is defective.somehow.
> 
> ...


Barking wasn't my major issue, and I hate when people miss my major points. I'm sorry, but I've said it over and over again in this thread that she shows pretty moderate/severe aggression towards small kids. This is "just a puppy" who's 45 pounds and unbelievably strong and getting bigger.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> I can sum up my training with this particular dog, but that doesn't mean that I would handle your dog in the same manner.
> 
> I put a drag line on him in the house and kept him from practicing bad behaviors. I taught him how to play tug and fetch with rules. I lured obedience with food and then transitioned to a toy. I worked impulse control with down stays and place commands. I ran his butt off at the hill twice a day, working on obedience and impulse control while having a blast. I instilled house rules, with rewards and corrections as needed.
> 
> ...


Well hey, not everyone has access to 45 years of training or the money it takes to correct behavior like this. That's obviously not a jab at you, seeing youve put in the years. Her reactiveness towards kids is leaving me in a bind, I have a 3 year old who I can't trust around a 'family' dog, and I am around other kids constantly. We are a very active family and I always bring her with us and all of that was going fantastic until she decided it wasn't.


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## DogsRPeople2 (Feb 16, 2021)

Maybe Caesar Milan’s method?








Food Aggression And What To Do About It - Cesar's Way


Is your dog aggressive every time you give them their food? Learn how to recognize and correct a dog with food aggression.




www.cesarsway.com


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Cheese Dog said:


> Just throwing this out there.


Thanks, for reference, she is the last one or "most severe"


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Can you at least spend some money to have the pup.properly evaluated by a good trainer who is versed in GSDs?

Who knows, if they think the dog could be saved, they might even know of someone who would take her.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

DogsRPeople2 said:


> Maybe Caesar Milan’s method?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Pawsed said:


> Can you at least spend some money to have the pup.properly evaluated by a good trainer who is versed in GSDs?
> 
> Who knows, if they think the dog could be saved, they might even know of someone who would take her.


Sure. Several german shepherd rescues didn't want anything to do with her. Her aggressiveness towards kids is alarming and not normal.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

volumedown said:


> Sure. Several german shepherd rescues didn't want anything to do with her. Her aggressiveness towards kids is alarming and not normal.


Rescues usually only want dogs that can be rehomed, in my experience. Resources tend to be tight and they have a "can't save em all" attitude. They don't want a dog that could get them sued or can't be rehomed within a short span of time. Don't take their reluctance as more than it is.

Can't speak about her aggression or trainability, but you're citing the opinions of all the WRONG people here. Vets, rescues and trick trainers are about as useful in your situation as a mechanic fixing your phone.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Rabidwolfie said:


> Rescues usually only want dogs that can be rehomed, in my experience. Resources tend to be tight and they have a "can't save em all" attitude. They don't want a dog that could get them sued or can't be rehomed within a short span of time. Don't take their reluctance as more than it is.
> 
> Can't speak about her aggression or trainability, but you're citing the opinions of all the WRONG people here. Vets, rescues and trick trainers are about as useful in your situation as a mechanic fixing your phone.


Sure, I've said that several times now that they aren't behaviorist. But have a general idea on what's going on. They aren't totally clueless on these topics. Her reactiveness towards kids isn't a "scared" dog it's a bit more of a severe problem. Talking on threads doesn't do it justice. There's zero point in living in fear of my dog getting out and attacking a child. Every single one of my neighbors all have kids under 10. That alone means she has to go.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

volumedown said:


> That alone means she has to go.


i don’t think anyone is disagreeing with this….. they’re just trying to keep a young dog alive if possible.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Fodder said:


> i don’t think anyone is disagreeing with this….. they’re just trying to keep a young dog alive if possible.


I am too, I love that thing to death. Minus the issues I have, she's a great dog. She hasn't shown anything towards us besides the food aggression, which now scares me to have my daughter around her eating. But I'll just put her in the crate to eat to avoid anything.


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## MeishasMom (Nov 12, 2021)

Have you had any blood work done or brain scans? My girl just got done with 30days of Doxy for Lyme disease. Before she was diagnosed she would be a bit moody and snappy. Now she's a happy loving pup, no more snapping, always looking for rubs and scratches. Sometimes animals will act out and be aggressive if they don't feel well. I know she's only 6 months, but that doesn't mean there isn't something health wise that could be causing her actions. 

Nothing ever happened with her and a child when she was younger that you are aware of right?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

MeishasMom said:


> Have you had any blood work done or brain scans? My girl just got done with 30days of Doxy for Lyme disease. Before she was diagnosed she would be a bit moody and snappy. Now she's a happy loving pup, no more snapping, always looking for rubs and scratches. Sometimes animals will act out and be aggressive if they don't feel well. I know she's only 6 months, but that doesn't mean there isn't something health wise that could be causing her actions.
> 
> Nothing ever happened with her and a child when she was younger that you are aware of right?


No I haven't but they have suggested it. Nothing has happened to her at all, unless it was before 8 weeks of age and she randomly remembered something. She was fine up until one day. I know people say "you had to notice something" no. This was a sudden change as IF something did happen, but it didn't. I would allow her to be off leash. She would greet people with no issues, never seemed scared or ever had to retreat from anything. She's been everywhere with us. The only red flag I noticed was fearfulness on the first meet, any puppy I've ever come in contact with is generally happy to see people. She was not at first BUT she was after a couple weeks.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

MeishasMom said:


> Have you had any blood work done or brain scans? My girl just got done with 30days of Doxy for Lyme disease. Before she was diagnosed she would be a bit moody and snappy. Now she's a happy loving pup, no more snapping, always looking for rubs and scratches. Sometimes animals will act out and be aggressive if they don't feel well. I know she's only 6 months, but that doesn't mean there isn't something health wise that could be causing her actions.
> 
> Nothing ever happened with her and a child when she was younger that you are aware of right?


Other than the issues I've listed, she's a very active pup. Very playful, eats very well, water intake is great.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

Some muzzle training could be in order until she's either successfully rehomed or....
At least she would be safer until she leaves your company one way or another.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’m going to throw something out there which is not advice so much as something else to think about. Please consider this and don’t take it as a criticism because it’s not. It might be an answer. I have a great deal of experience working with families and children. I’ve learned that sometimes the problem in front of us is the symptom rather than the origin of the problem. A dog doesn’t suddenly go from being safe around people to attacking children without a reason. Your dog is skittish and fearful. We know that and we agree. Children are noisy. Families can be very noisy. Is it possible your daughter or another child or adult was very loud at some point and scared the dog so badly, she reacted? A big tantrum, a loud argument? Even children playing can be loud and frightening to a puppy who hasn’t had a lot of exposure and develops a fear reaction. We talk about thunder, gunshots, or other natural noises here but we don’t mention people noises. My WL has very sensitive hearing and I’ve seen him alert to and investigate noises that I never noticed before. Is it possible a child did something, anything, that frightened her? Even something perfectly normal to us can be a trigger to a skittish dog. Dogs remember and the next time something triggers the same fear, they will react.

Rescues didn’t turn you down because they saw her and determined she was aggressive. She was turned down because you told them she was aggressive. It concerns me that no professional has evaluated this dog. If you need to give her up, which it sounds like you do, you can save her life by finding a safe placement for her. You may love her but she’s the wrong dog for your family right now. I would find a rescue group you haven’t talked to yet, explain that she is too much dog for you, is skittish and needs an experienced handler to evaluate her. I can guarantee a experienced trainer who knows the breed and their quirks and faults, will see different things than you do. If they decide she’s hopeless, they will recommend euth, but in my experience rescues will go the extra distance to save a dog if she is salvageable. They will pay for training and will place a dog in a home without children if necessary.

Our first GSD was solid as a rock with an amazing temperament, but the breeder refused to sell to us until my youngest child was in first grade. We waited a year and even then, she switched puppies on us and ended up selling us a slightly older puppy that had some training and exposure to everything. That dog was around children, off leash, all the time without any concerns on our part at all. Your child is young. If you get another dog now look for a breed that is more forgiving and family friendly. Wait to get a GSD at a time when your children are older and you can afford good training from the beginning.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> I’m going to throw something out there which is not advice so much as something else to think about. Please consider this and don’t take it as a criticism because it’s not. It might be an answer. I have a great deal of experience working with families and children. I’ve learned that sometimes the problem in front of us is the symptom rather than the origin of the problem. A dog doesn’t suddenly go from getting along with people to attacking children without a reason. Your dog is skittish and fearful. We know that and we agree. Children are noisy. Families can be very noisy. Is it possible your daughter or another child or adult was very loud at some point and scared the dog so badly, she reacted? A big tantrum, a loud argument? Even children playing can be loud and frightening to a puppy who hasn’t had a lot of exposure and develops a fear reaction. We talk about thunder, gunshots, or other natural noises here but we don’t mention people noises. My WL has very sensitive hearing and I’ve seen him alert to and investigate noises that I never noticed before. Is it possible a child did something, anything, that frightened her? Even something perfectly normal to us can be a trigger to a skittish dog. Dogs remember and the next time something triggers the same fear, they will react.
> 
> Rescues didn’t turn you down because they saw her and determined she was aggressive. She was turned down because you told them she was aggressive. It concerns me that no professional has evaluated this dog. If you need to give her up, which it sounds like you do, you can save her life by finding a safe placement for her. You may love her but she’s the wrong dog for your family right now. I would find a rescue group you haven’t talked to yet, explain that she is too much dog for you, is skittish and needs an experienced handler to evaluate her. I can guarantee a experienced trainer who knows the breed and their quirks and faults, will see different things than you do. If they decide she’s hopeless, they will recommend euth, but in my experience rescues will go the extra distance to save a dog if she is salvageable. They will pay for training and will place a dog in a home without children if necessary.
> 
> Our first GSD was solid as a rock with an amazing temperament, but the breeder refused to sell to us until my youngest child was in first grade. We waited a year and even then, she switched puppies on us and ended up selling us a slightly older puppy that had some training and exposure to everything. That dog was around children, off leash, all the time without any concerns on our part at all. Your child is young. If you get another dog now look for a breed that is more forgiving and family friendly. Wait to get a GSD at a time when your children are older and you can afford good training from the beginning.


Sorry, but the rescues didn't turn me down because of me, they did it for them. Nobody wants a dog who can severely injure a child. Ava was awesome with anyone up until one day, a sharp sudden change in behavior as IF something happened, but it didn't. That's the issue here, there's something 'wrong' in her brain the same way a person can have severe public anxiety, but most do not. I am not talking about a dog who's never liked people or I got from a shelter that had "doesn't like kids" written on their card. I am talking about a sharp change in behavior and a rapid development of dislike in kids. Have you seen your dog chase after a rabbit, small animal? That's how she acts with kids, who aren't even paying her any attention or looking at her. Almost as if her prey drive switched over to humans. ANYTHING I've read on that indicates that's a pretty severe problem.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Did any rescue group actually put hands on her and evaluate her? They met her and determined she was aggressive?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Rabidwolfie said:


> Some muzzle training could be in order until she's either successfully rehomed or....
> At least she would be safer until she leaves your company one way or another.





LuvShepherds said:


> Did any rescue group actually put hands on her and evaluate her? They met her and determined she was aggressive?


They wanted nothing to do with her in general, and several never responded to me after calling/emails. The ones who did, maybe 4 or so (3 being legitimate GSD rescues) said sorry we won't. I reached out to a guy who trains police dogs who "specialize" on redirecting aggression rather than training it out, and he said he'd meet me in a couple days but then never returned any calls or text.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

In regards to food aggression at that age have you tried doing a bit of hand feeding to form a bond? Do a bit of scatter feeding. Are you able to feed her by saying "sit" & "stay" then releasing her? I started that with mine at a young age and keep doing it. Plus while she's eating I have also gone near her bowl adding a special treat the odd time. The few times she did move from stay or even does now I correct her by saying "uh oh" and quickly removing the bowl back up. But if it's a full blown attack then maybe trying using a leash to correct. Not sure if showing her who the leader is would help in this situation or make it worse. At times I'll say in a loud voice "Hey" the rare times I did up my tone. I personally don't put up with bs, but that's me. No different than how I raise my kids. Cross the line and my tone changes and dad's no longer the nice guy. I don't get physical or anything but let them know this is my house, my rules either oblige or timeout. Gotta be stern a bit. If it's gonna make the situation worse then of course don't.

I've also had my kids at times hand feed. And as mentioned arguments or yelling at kids to discipline them can play a role no different than 2 partners arguing around the animal eventually lashes out on one of them. I get stern with my kids if they take things too far, but nothing over the top. I'll yell go to your room to my youngest, which I've toned down with the dog around. But being all nicey nicey around raising kids at times doesn't work. My youngest is going to be 5 this summer and my oldest being almost 9 is more calm and collective rather than being whining & constantly wanting things his way or challenging me. I have at times crated my dogs around the kids when they wanna get a bit wild and the dog doesn't go crazy in the crate while the kids do their thing. 

I know others here who raised kids said their dogs would bark in the crate when the kids went wild during the puppy stage and just let the puppy do its thing until it calmed down on its own probably.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A friend took in a puppy from a good rescue that was acting exactly as your dog is. She was able to turn the dog around in a month. She still has him and he is 8. Again, they only know she is aggressive because you told them something that made them afraid. A very good rescue will at least want to meet the dog. Until she has a bite history she could possibly be saved. Try out of state.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> In regards to food aggression at that age have you tried doing a bit of hand feeding to form a bond? Do a bit of scatter feeding. Are you able to feed her by saying "sit" & "stay" then releasing her? I started that with mine at a young age and keep doing it. Plus while she's eating I have also gone near her bowl adding a special treat the odd time. The few times she did move from stay or even does now I correct her by saying "uh oh" and quickly removing the bowl back up. But if it's a full blown attack then maybe trying using a leash to correct. Not sure if showing her who the leader is would help in this situation or make it worse. At times I'll say in a loud voice "Hey" the rare times I did up my tone. I personally don't put up with bs, but that's me. No different than how I raise my kids. Cross the line and my tone changes and dad's no longer the nice guy. I don't get physical or anything but let them know this is my house, my rules either oblige or timeout. Gotta be stern a bit. If it's gonna make the situation worse then of course don't.
> 
> I've also had my kids at times hand feed. And as mentioned arguments or yelling at kids to discipline them can play a role no different than 2 partners arguing around the animal eventually lashes out on one of them. I get stern with my kids if they take things too far, but nothing over the top. I'll yell go to your room to my youngest, which I've toned down with the dog around. But being all nicey nicey around raising kids at times doesn't work. My youngest is going to be 5 this summer and my oldest being almost 9 is more calm and collective rather than being whining & constantly wanting things his way or challenging me. I have at times crated my dogs around the kids when they wanna get a bit wild and the dog doesn't go crazy in the crate while the kids do their thing.
> 
> I know others here who raised kids said their dogs would bark in the crate when the kids went wild during the puppy stage and just let the puppy do its thing until it calmed down on its own probably.


Yes. I tell her to sit, wait and everything and she's great BUT when she starts eating she acts like that's her first meal in weeks (I know that's how they are). When she eats now and you get near her, she gets very stiff and doesn't respond to anything nice, treats my "calling" noise that I've got her trained on. I've honestly left it alone and put her in the crate when eating because it's the first time I've personally felt scared by a dog. And I don't want my daughter near her or even entertain that idea. She does not do that with toys, bones or anything else.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> A friend took in a puppy from a good rescue that was acting exactly as your dog is. She was able to turn the dog around in a month. She still has him and he is 8. Again, they only know she is aggressive because you told them something that made them afraid. A very good rescue will at least want to meet the dog. Until she has a bite history she could possibly be saved. Try out of state.


The ones around me all had outstanding reviews, been in business for years. It's on the questionnaire you fill out in the behavior section. I guess once they read aggressiveness towards kids they don't want the liability. She could go to a farm with an older couple and live the rest of her life with no issues, but that's not the world I'm in right now unfortunately. She acts so great in our house (minus the food issues)


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I know of one rescue in another state that will at least evaluate her for you. If you are interested PM me.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

DogsRPeople2 said:


> Maybe Caesar Milan’s method?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've read this article and tried a few things, hand feeding and such. She wags her tail and does great. You put it in her bowl, and get near her she gets stiff, no wagging of the tail and deep growl/showing teeth. If I took the bowl away(I know you aren't supposed to I'm just saying) she'd definitely bite one of us.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Personally if my dog as she ages started showing food aggression or wanted to be left alone when eating I would comply and not be overly concerned. Some dogs do that. I watched a safe dog video with my kids this weekend explaining what not to do around a dog even a pet. How to kiss a dog the proper way. Not to hug the dog. And guess what? My 4 year old challenged it and I grounded him from electronics for the day. I said do it again and stuff is gone for a week. Little kids 3-5 act like that. Now when my dog eats my kids don't go near her. They are busy watching tv or something. Odd times one will ask to feed the dog and I'm there making sure she listens well when they tell her to sit & stay. Then the kids walk away. Few times even now I'll touch her during eating and say good girl with a pet on the back or a quick tail touch. If this changes to her growling in the future I would stop and not push my luck.

Every meal I have fed her she licks the bowl clean. 3-4 mins the entire thing is gone.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> Personally if my dog as she ages started showing food aggression or wanted to be left alone when eating I would comply and not be overly concerned. Some dogs do that. I watched a safe dog video with my kids this weekend explaining what not to do around a dog even a pet. How to kiss a dog the proper way. Not to hug the dog. And guess what? My 4 year old challenged it and I grounded him from electronics for the day. I said do it again and stuff is gone for a week. Little kids 3-5 act like that. Now when my dog eats my kids don't go near her. They are busy watching tv or something. Odd times one will ask to feed the dog and I'm there making sure she listens well when they tell her to sit & stay. Then the kids walk away. Few times even now I'll touch her during eating and say good girl with a pet on the back or a quick tail touch. If this changes to her growling in the future I would stop and not push my luck.
> 
> Every meal I have fed her she licks the bowl clean. 3-4 mins the entire thing is gone.


My daughter generally doesn't go near or i don't think she's ever have actually. I genuinely don't care about it, it's just for her sake. I had a weird mut lab mix I found in a parking lot that didn't have its eyes opened... had her 14 years until heart failure. Nicest dog on the earth. Growled when anybody would be near her while eating. It doesn't concern me, I just don't need to even think about anything happening. She goes in the crate for 2 minutes and right back out


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## DogsRPeople2 (Feb 16, 2021)

volumedown said:


> My daughter generally doesn't go near or i don't think she's ever have actually. I genuinely don't care about it, it's just for her sake. I had a weird mut lab mix I found in a parking lot that didn't have its eyes opened... had her 14 years until heart failure. Nicest dog on the earth. Growled when anybody would be near her while eating. It doesn't concern me, I just don't need to even think about anything happening. She goes in the crate for 2 minutes and right back out


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## DogsRPeople2 (Feb 16, 2021)

I found this Richard Heinz. He’s way down in Miami but has been very successful with food aggression in dogs. And with an ecollar and advice from ppl on this forum on how to use it, it should help. The video is 44 minutes but we’ll worth it IMO.


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## DogsRPeople2 (Feb 16, 2021)

DogsRPeople2 said:


> I found this Richard Heinz. He’s way down in Miami but has been very successful with food aggression in dogs. And with an ecollar and advice from ppl on this forum on how to use it, it should help. The video is 44 minutes but we’ll worth it IMO.


you would NOT have to go to a trainer you can’t afford. Get ecollar, watch video and get advise from those here who have used it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Isn't there anyone out here that can take her? OP, would you invest enough in her life to ship her? The more you are sharing about this pup, the more I think you have a normal GSD pup that needs an owner who has more experience than you. Again, I am not judging you as we all started out at some point. If I had a GSD pup like that during the times when our kids were little, I would have had the same feeling of fear and being overwhelmed and I too had plenty of dog experience at that time. GSDs come in many forms: some are easier than others but they all need insight, work and understanding behavior. Don't rely on vets, vet techs and the average dog owner for evaluations, no matter if they all seem to agree.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

volumedown said:


> I've read this article and tried a few things, hand feeding and such. She wags her tail and does great. You put it in her bowl, and get near her she gets stiff, no wagging of the tail and deep growl/showing teeth. If I took the bowl away(I know you aren't supposed to I'm just saying) she'd definitely bite one of us.



Have you tried tossing super high value food in the bowl when you walk by so she associates your approach with good things happening instead of feeling insecure about your approach?

personally, I feed in the crate and have never had this problem but I've also worked from 8 weeks at trading them food so they never feel insecure about it.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

DogsRPeople2 said:


> I found this Richard Heinz. He’s way down in Miami but has been very successful with food aggression in dogs. And with an ecollar and advice from ppl on this forum on how to use it, it should help. The video is 44 minutes but we’ll worth it IMO.


I'll give it a watch here later, thank you


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## DogsRPeople2 (Feb 16, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> Isn't there anyone out here that can take her? OP, would you invest enough in her life to ship her? The more you are sharing about this pup, the more I think you have a normal GSD pup that needs an owner who has more experience than you. Again, I am not judging you as we all started out at some point. If I had a GSD pup like that during the times when our kids were little, I would have had the same feeling of fear and being overwhelmed and I too had plenty of dog experience at that time. GSDs come in many forms: some are easier than others but they all need insight, work and understanding behavior. Don't rely on vets, vet techs and the average dog owner for evaluations, no matter if they all seem to agree.





wolfy dog said:


> Isn't there anyone out here that can take her? OP, would you invest enough in her life to ship her? The more you are sharing about this pup, the more I think you have a normal GSD pup that needs an owner who has more experience than you. Again, I am not judging you as we all started out at some point. If I had a GSD pup like that during the times when our kids were little, I would have had the same feeling of fear and being overwhelmed and I too had plenty of dog experience at that time. GSDs come in many forms: some are easier than others but they all need insight, work and understanding behavior. Don't rely on vets, vet techs and the average dog owner for evaluations, no matter if they all seem to agree.


IF I could trust her with my male Pomeranian and my female GSD Kimber I could foster until someone adopts her. I have a fenced in back yard.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> Isn't there anyone out here that can take her? OP, would you invest enough in her life to ship her? The more you are sharing about this pup, the more I think you have a normal GSD pup that needs an owner who has more experience than you. Again, I am not judging you as we all started out at some point. If I had a GSD pup like that during the times when our kids were little, I would have had the same feeling of fear and being overwhelmed and I too had plenty of dog experience at that time. GSDs come in many forms: some are easier than others but they all need insight, work and understanding behavior. Don't rely on vets, vet techs and the average dog owner for evaluations, no matter if they all seem to agree.


Her behavior towards kids is anything but normal, everything else is typical behavior that can get better and I agree on that. This isn't defensive scared barking that I can redirect her attention on like other things. It's what I can describe it as a prey drive when chasing after a rabbit, but transitioned into kids. Anything I've read or watched on it labels it as the worst form of aggression towards kids.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

DogsRPeople2 said:


> IF I could trust her with my male Pomeranian and my female GSD Kimber I could foster until someone adopts her. I have a fenced in back yard.


She can't even think of looking at another animal, she's had that early on. She was "ok" with dogs, but developed dislike even with continued socialization around calm tempered dogs who didn't pay her any attention.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

volumedown said:


> Her behavior towards kids is anything but normal, everything else is typical behavior that can get better and I agree on that. This isn't defensive scared barking that I can redirect her attention on like other things. It's what I can describe it as a prey drive when chasing after a rabbit, but transitioned into kids. Anything I've read or watched on it labels it as the worst form of aggression towards kids.


You cannot make that claim until she is being evaluated by a good GSD trainer. You are not a behaviorist, nor am I. Why don't you invest in one? Since money is an issue, it might be cheaper and it is kinder than putting her down.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> You cannot make that claim until she is being evaluated by a good GSD trainer. You are not a behaviorist, nor am I. Why don't you invest in one? Since money is an issue, it might be cheaper and it is kinder than putting her down.


I can most definitely make that claim. She's snapped, lunged, showed teeth, at several kids and almost pulled me, a 250 pound man off my feet trying to get to a 2 or 3 year old ive gone to a park where kids were in a different area and she did that. I think it's a reasonable claim at that point.


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## DogsRPeople2 (Feb 16, 2021)

Please watch the Heinz video. She may be fine after the ecollar training. It works for food aggression and other triggers.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

DogsRPeople2 said:


> Please watch the Heinz video. She may be fine after the ecollar training. It works for food aggression and other triggers.


I will here later on


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

volumedown said:


> I can most definitely make that claim. She's snapped, lunged, showed teeth, at several kids and almost pulled me, a 250 pound man off my feet trying to get to a 2 or 3 year old ive gone to a park where kids were in a different area and she did that. I think it's a reasonable claim at that point.


@David Winners if the OP can get video would you be willing to watch? I know you are busy.
@volumedown could you get some video? Safely of course. And please don't go sending your dog to some random person. That helps no one and could land her in real trouble. You don't need to share it on here. I can have a look but David is way more experienced then I am if he is willing. If he can't there are a few other people I can ask.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

volumedown said:


> I can most definitely make that claim. She's snapped, lunged, showed teeth, at several kids and almost pulled me, a 250 pound man off my feet trying to get to a 2 or 3 year old ive gone to a park where kids were in a different area and she did that. I think it's a reasonable claim at that point.


I trust that you are accurately describing her behavior and it sounds very concerning and I see the gravity of possibly hurting your child. My concern is the decision of life or death for this pup without having had a proper evaluation by the experts vs the so called experts like vets (they are the experts on the physical part of dogs though). I think that is the issue here. Yes, a video would help if you can keep your child safe.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> @David Winners if the OP can get video would you be willing to watch? I know you are busy.
> @volumedown could you get some video? Safely of course. And please don't go sending your dog to some random person. That helps no one and could land her in real trouble. You don't need to share it on here. I can have a look but David is way more experienced then I am if he is willing. If he can't there are a few other people I can ask.


Sure. The longer the better, and include basic OB without and with distraction.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I trusty that you are accurately describing her behavior and it sounds very concerning and I see the gravity of possibly hurting your child. My concern is the decision of life or death for this pup without having had a proper evaluation by the experts vs the so called experts like vets (they are the experts on the physical part of dogs though). I think that is the issue here.


Frustration and excitement can look a lot like aggression.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Frustration and excitement can look a lot like aggression.


Yes, so we need an evaluation asap. Thanks for pitching in.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Some pups change while developing where as from no barking to barking. Maybe it was her way of wanting to interact with them or being protective of your child? When my lunges & barks at other dogs possibly wanting to meet them. I haven't fully looked at her body language when this happens but of course I don't give in cause that's not the proper greet behaviour. A neighbour across the road brought his dog over when mine kept barking & pulling. Did she bite? No. If she sees a bunch of kids running around being noisy I wouldn't be surprised if my dog acted the same. Hard to tell if the puppy wants to just go and play or maybe she got protective of my child. Kids screaming "no no no" during tag or something she does an impulse reaction deeming it a threat. Since you mentioned in your family you bond with other kids and that's now a concern my personal recommendation would be step it back and do baby steps. But based on your lifestyle it seems you cannot help your pup out by doing that. Each puppy is different as it develops one day fine at the park around kids then changes, personally I dunno if I would give up that quick. But again we aren't in your situation observing the behaviour and I'm no expert. And perhaps tests could show something that requires medical attention. But cost of course can be an issue for some. I think it's a gamble with GSDs trying to find one that goes from puppy to old age all the way through behaving well mannered no matter what. Some dogs like humans handle stress different or think a kid screaming is automatically a sign of help when the child is horsing around. 

Would I wrestle or rough house with my kids in front of my dog? I dunno. Is the puppy able to tell when I tickle my kids and they laugh hard it's not a threat? If I do it and she barks with lunging at 5 months I could tell her we are just playing and laugh, but she most likely doesn't understand. What if my kid's friend comes over & does the same thing? My trainer would probably advise me either not to act that way in front of the puppy or put her in the crate when wanna do things. I'll have to ask this weekend.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

volumedown said:


> Sorry, but the rescues didn't turn me down because of me, they did it for them. Nobody wants a dog who can severely injure a child. Ava was awesome with anyone up until one day, a sharp sudden change in behavior as IF something happened, but it didn't. That's the issue here, there's something 'wrong' in her brain the same way a person can have severe public anxiety, but most do not. I am not talking about a dog who's never liked people or I got from a shelter that had "doesn't like kids" written on their card. I am talking about a sharp change in behavior and a rapid development of dislike in kids. Have you seen your dog chase after a rabbit, small animal? That's how she acts with kids, who aren't even paying her any attention or looking at her. Almost as if her prey drive switched over to humans. ANYTHING I've read on that indicates that's a pretty severe problem.


Something did happen. Hormones changed, fear period, something you don't know about.

What everyone is saying is that you don't know what you don't know. You can't accurately describe the dog because you don't have the experience to understand if it is real aggression or something else. 

My military dog didn't bite most people out of aggression. She wasn't trying to kill them. She was a pushy jerk with no leadership. She still sent people to the ER. She still looked like a crazy dog trying to lunge and bite people.

Easy fix.

If it's genetic or neurological, maybe not so much.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Jumping in here briefly to say that kids used to send Kai straight into “get it” mode. Wide eyes, lunging, fur up and a frantic bark. They are her size, move quickly and awkwardly, and often make odd noises. She was no where near what I would classify as aggressive but it was not good to allow to continue. I got on that fast.

We still have work to do, but now she doesn’t react anywhere near that way. Now I would classify her as “that looks fun” when they are running and jumping (still no good) and mildly interested when they are still. She semi regularly interacts with kids now (not toddlers). All interactions are controlled. The kids have boundaries and get to learn proper dog savvy manners. Kai stands by me with my hands on her collar and leash (watching for any inkling she is anything but mildly curious or happy). We depart after short, positive interactions so both she and the kids involved have a good experience (future gsd owners?). She is a much improved dog, but had I not put absolute boundaries on her (and kids) right from the start, that “excited hello turned grab-it” had the potential to grow worse with age.

I say that because by going off of just what you’ve described, your pup sounds within the bounds of normal. However, since you have a very young child at home and do not seem to be able to find a strong, experienced trainer, it may be good to find a good, new home. I don’t mean that as a terrible thing to you but sometimes a dog simply isn’t right for a situation. I second waiting to get another dog until your child is a bit older, and finding an already child-familiar, older dog.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

6-12 months is usually when dogs have a lot of behavioral issues. A lot of new things & the world is scary. Anxiety can build up. I explained to my trainer about the prong thoroughly how I have yet to even correct her on the prong properly which I don't plan to be doing with a puppy. She said based on my situation with my kids walking ahead and where my house is located if the prong is helping then fine. She only wears it for about 20mins twice a day during walks and has made a difference. E-collar sounds like the better choice cause she may not know the correction is coming from me. I'm hoping this week another dog walks the other side of the road with my kids ahead. I'll turn the opposite direction while the kids keep walking then walk back again or put her on a sit or down and see what happens. All this is to try and help her realize slowly I'm the leader & got the situation under control and that other human & dog isn't a threat.

I'm sure some folks in my block who never owned a GSD think she needs help, but other GSD owners on my block know the situation. I've seen males around 1 or 2 year old still barking & lunging at times. Some aren't really communicating with their dogs while walking. I do. That plays a key role. Most are just lazy & want some quick fix. Dogs don't learn like that lol.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

AE316 said:


> E-collar sounds like the better choice cause she may not know the correction is coming from me.


Off topic but I definitely what my dog to know the correction is coming from me. No weird superstitious connection. I want the dog very fluent in ecollar no confusion. Becareful with the ecollar please.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> Jumping in here briefly to say that kids used to send Kai straight into “get it” mode. Wide eyes, lunging, fur up and a frantic bark. They are her size, move quickly and awkwardly, and often make odd noises. She was no where near what I would classify as aggressive but it was not good to allow to continue. I got on that fast.
> I say that because by going off of just what you’ve described, your pup sounds within the bounds of normal. However, since you have a very young child at home and do not seem to be able to find a strong, experienced trainer, it may be good to find a good, new home. I don’t mean that as a terrible thing to you but sometimes a dog simply isn’t right for a situation. I second waiting to get another dog until your child is a bit older, and finding an already child-familiar, older dog.


Herding dogs are wired to control situations that seem out of control to them. That wiring needs a lot of understanding and specific training, otherwise a working herding dog would be useless and eat the sheep. So if this drive/wiring is not channeled properly in a dog that needs to be a pet dog, it can lead to this.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> Frustration and excitement can look a lot like aggression.


I've been able to tell with her, and pretty much get the difference between frustration and excitement.


Sabis mom said:


> @David Winners if the OP can get video would you be willing to watch? I know you are busy.
> @volumedown could you get some video? Safely of course. And please don't go sending your dog to some random person. That helps no one and could land her in real trouble. You don't need to share it on here. I can have a look but David is way more experienced then I am if he is willing. If he can't there are a few other people I can ask.


Getting a video of her doing this would result in danger for a child. I'd love to get one.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

volumedown said:


> I've been able to tell with her, and pretty much get the difference between frustration and excitement.
> 
> Getting a video of her doing this would result in danger for a child. I'd love to get one.





David Winners said:


> Frustration and excitement can look a lot like aggression.


I am not trying to sound like I know the entirety of my situation or claiming anybody here is wrong either. It's hard to get a full picture without seeing it first hand. To be clear, her obedience is great without distraction. With adults walking by, she's able to fully listen to commands given. With dogs, it depends on distance or what's happening but 'most' of the time she can have her attention redirected with a few look behinds to bark. With kids, even when standing still or across the parking lot, she won't quit. When kids show up at a park? We ultimately have to leave. I would reasonably say the age threshold for this is probably 10. Anybody under that age is an issue for her. Before, she was unable to see anybody, now I can walk her into a vet and she will let people give her treats and be evaluated. Much better than she was, with kids this issue has gotten worse with time. 

All of the other issues I experience, being mouthy, or playing rough comes with the breed. I have scratches and scars all over my arms from her. I don't even mind her food guarding, it's just my child I'm worried about but she eats in a crate now to avoid that situation all together. It's the kids. I can't have a kid get hurt.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> I've been able to tell with her, and pretty much get the difference between frustration and excitement.


I’m curious now. What do you see in this dog?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So you need to rehome her. No judgement there. Sometimes things just don't work. What is your plan for that? Do you have a pedigree that someone can look at to see if there are any indications for behavior there? Are you willing to transport her to someone here if they are willing to take her?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

volumedown said:


> I've been able to tell with her, and pretty much get the difference between frustration and excitement.
> 
> Getting a video of her doing this would result in danger for a child. I'd love to get one.


Totally understand. Don't put anyone at risk. But what about the rest? David is highly skilled at reading dogs. I'm not picking on you but sometimes when we are in a situation it's tough to see what is really going on.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> I’m curious now. What do you see in this dog?


From what I see, a dog that knows when to bark, when to not and went to stop


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

If the dog will react to kids from a distance, I don't see how that is putting anyone in danger. 

Whatever dude. Just trying to help. Good luck.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> From what I see, a dog that knows when to bark, when to not and went to stop


The emotional state. The drive the dog is working in. The motivation behind his actions.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

volumedown said:


> From what I see, a dog that knows when to bark, when to not and went to stop


The question isn't directed at me, but I see a very excited dog who is eager to do an activity that can be seen as violent and aggressive by an outsider looking in. But that's just me.

(Also a very well trained dog!)


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> Totally understand. Don't put anyone at risk. But what about the rest? David is highly skilled at reading dogs. I'm not picking on you but sometimes when we are in a situation it's tough to see what is really going on.


I can get video of her walking with others around and not being reactive, or barking. But she has got much better at that. But looking at those won't do much as she'd look like a typical 6 month old. She does not act the same when kids are around.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Rabidwolfie said:


> The question isn't directed at me, but I see a very excited dog who is eager to do an activity that can be seen as violent and aggressive by an outsider looking in. But that's just me.
> 
> (Also a very well trained dog!)


I don't see an aggressive dog in the video.


David Winners said:


> If the dog will react to kids from a distance, I don't see how that is putting anyone in danger.
> 
> Whatever dude. Just trying to help. Good luck.


Because you'd see regular barking and roll your eyes and call me an idiot my guy. Is that what you want?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> The emotional state. The drive the dog is working in. The motivation behind his actions.


If I'm supposed to see an aggressive dog in training that's not what I see at all.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

volumedown said:


> I am not trying to sound like I know the entirety of my situation or claiming anybody here is wrong either. It's hard to get a full picture without seeing it first hand. To be clear, her obedience is great without distraction. With adults walking by, she's able to fully listen to commands given. With dogs, it depends on distance or what's happening but 'most' of the time she can have her attention redirected with a few look behinds to bark. With kids, even when standing still or across the parking lot, she won't quit. When kids show up at a park? We ultimately have to leave. I would reasonably say the age threshold for this is probably 10. Anybody under that age is an issue for her. Before, she was unable to see anybody, now I can walk her into a vet and she will let people give her treats and be evaluated. Much better than she was, with kids this issue has gotten worse with time.
> 
> All of the other issues I experience, being mouthy, or playing rough comes with the breed. I have scratches and scars all over my arms from her. I don't even mind her food guarding, it's just my child I'm worried about but she eats in a crate now to avoid that situation all together. It's the kids. I can't have a kid get hurt.


OP, first I appreciate that you continue this conversation as many people in this situation just disappear. What you are describing sounds normal for a healthy youngster in this breed. The fact that it has gotten worse regarding reactivity to young kids, can also be because of the connection you have with her. Our own anxiety travels down the leash like a wireless telephone connection. I am not blaming you, just trying to look at it from a different angle. Example from my personal experience with a dog of mine (larger mutt). He was attacked by a roaming loose female Akita on a rural road. I had to hide behind a tree and thought he was going to get killed. She finally let go and he had a few puncture wounds but was physically OK. He developed dog aggression in a major way. After he passed (not related issues), I had a hard time remaining relaxed with the new dog (Wolfy Dog) who was sound and sane. It still echo's in my mind when encountering another dog 10+ years later. So I understand your anxiety and maybe your pup picks up on your tension when it comes to the interaction when you child is in sight of the dog. Even holding your breath, they can sense and respond. Could this be possible, you think? But I do think that rehoming is the best decision.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

volumedown said:


> I don't see an aggressive dog in the video.
> 
> Because you'd see regular barking and roll your eyes and call me an idiot my guy. Is that what you want?


I'm not your guy, and I don't want anything besides the dog to have a fair shot at life.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> If the dog will react to kids from a distance, I don't see how that is putting anyone in danger.
> 
> Whatever dude. Just trying to help. Good luck.


I get what your talking about and I'm not discrediting you, but it's evident I'd have to share what I'm experiencing, and that would put someone at danger. The dog doesn't act like she usually does when kids are present. Is it as severe at a distance? No. But that distance is farther than I'm comfortable with. I've had to avoid the issue at all cost now, it's not worth it. For that reason I


David Winners said:


> I'm not your guy, and I don't want anything besides the dog to have a fair shot at life.


We're in the same boat guy.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> If I'm supposed to see an aggressive dog in training that's not what I see at all.


That is a dog working in prey drive. I want you to actually see what the body language of a dog in prey drive.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I’m curious now. What do you see in this dog?


He's is telling you he needs to come to my board and keep! Gawd, you need to speak dog better!


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, first I appreciate that you continue this conversation as many people in this situation just disappear. What you are describing sounds normal for a healthy youngster in this breed. The fact that it has gotten worse regarding reactivity to young kids, can also be because of the connection you have with her. Our own anxiety travels down the leash like a wireless telephone connection. I am not blaming you, just trying to look at it from a different angle. Example from my personal experience with a dog of mine (larger mutt). He was attacked by a roaming loose female Akita on a rural road. I had to hide behind a tree and thought he was going to get killed. She finally let go and he had a few puncture wounds but was physically OK. He developed dog aggression in a major way. After he passed (not related issues), I had a hard time remaining relaxed with the new dog (Wolfy Dog) who was sound and sane. It still echo's in my mind when encountering another dog 10+ years later. So I understand your anxiety and maybe your pup picks up on your tension when it comes to the interaction when you child is in sight of the dog. Even holding your breath, they can sense and respond. Could this be possible, you think? But I do think that rehoming is the best decision.


When this first started happening, I'd say less than a week prior to her starting the barking trend, this whole thing really, she was letting two little girls pet her. Ava was genuinely excited playing with them. Less than a week later, severe dislike for kids. David mentioned above about hormonal changes. It must have hit her like a brick wall. Nothing has happened to ava that would make her fear anything, however I know they go through a fear phase. We've had her on strick feeding schedules, she knows all kinds of commands. A typical, as you said, german shepherd puppy. I could care less if nobody was able to ever pet her I just want her to be neutral. And she HAS shown improvement with adults, other dogs. Somedays she gets weird but we remain consistent. With kids, it's just gotten worse. The only time this dog has been out of my sight is when I'm sleeping.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> He's is telling you he needs to come to my board and keep! Gawd, you need to speak dog better!


Maybe that’s why he’s always excited to get in the car.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> That is a dog working in prey drive. I want you to actually see what the body language of a dog in prey drive.


I had a guy who said he'd meet her take her, he runs a dog training place like this in North Texas. He unfortunately stopped responding to me.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

If she's barking wildly at kids at a distant and lunging showing teeth it's probably not that hard to record one time to show him at a safe distant for her threshold. You mentioned kids probably under 10. She's getting bigger maybe for now she sees them as prey or a threat (probably threat). She's a child. This can be worked on with baby steps, but yes she may never be the type that you can take to the park with other kids around your kids. Or any kids but yours at home only when an adult is around. Or her threshold might change to 10 feet away from kids playing. Who knows. It seems like you want much closer interactions with the dog & kids like even a family BBQ. This could be possibly with a few friends over with her on a leash or not. Or not even bring her out. Maybe look an older dog who's been around kids as mentioned seems like the best way about it. There are child friendly dogs who can turn on a kid at times so there's never a guarantee. I get the feeling you're wanting to rush certain things than do baby steps which could take 2 or even 3 years for a dog cause that's still considered young.

I thought about all this when I chose a WL puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> So you need to rehome her. No judgement there. Sometimes things just don't work. What is your plan for that? Do you have a pedigree that someone can look at to see if there are any indications for behavior there? Are you willing to transport her to someone here if they are willing to take her?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> If she's barking wildly at kids at a distant and lunging showing teeth it's probably not that hard to record one time to show him at a safe distant for her threshold. You mentioned kids probably under 10. She's getting bigger maybe for now she sees them as prey or a threat. She's a child. This can be worked on with baby steps, but yes she may never be the type that you can take to the park with other kids around your kids. Or any kids but yours at home only when an adult is around. Or her threshold might change to 10 feet away from kids playing. Who knows. It seems like you want much closer interactions with the dog & kids like even a family BBQ. This could be possibly with a few friends over with her on a leash or not. Or not even bring her out. Maybe look an older dog who's been around kids as mentioned seems like the best way about it. There are child friendly dogs who can turn on a kid at times so there's never a guarantee. I get the feeling you're wanting to rush certain things than do baby steps which could take 2 or even 3 years for a dog cause that's still considered young.
> 
> I thought about all this when I chose a WL puppy.


No, we don't rush at all. I get where you're coming from. And just for the record I won't be putting her down.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

volumedown said:


> When this first started happening, I'd say less than a week prior to her starting the barking trend, this whole thing really, she was letting two little girls pet her. Ava was genuinely excited playing with them. Less than a week later, severe dislike for kids. David mentioned above about hormonal changes. It must have hit her like a brick wall. Nothing has happened to ava that would make her fear anything, however I know they go through a fear phase. We've had her on strick feeding schedules, she knows all kinds of commands. A typical, as you said, german shepherd puppy. I could care less if nobody was able to ever pet her I just want her to be neutral. And she HAS shown improvement with adults, other dogs. Somedays she gets weird but we remain consistent. With kids, it's just gotten worse. The only time this dog has been out of my sight is when I'm sleeping.


Hackles up, up on her back legs, barking and air snapping sounds a LOT like a fear reaction. Except that she is doing it from any distance and whether or not they are moving according to you. That is what caught my attention. I really, really think someone needs eyes on this.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Depends on the area. I won't be putting her down because it's not fair to her. She may never like kids OR she may grow out of it who knows. But I can't morally hold responsibility for a child being hurt you know? She can stay home when I got to the park.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> Hackles up, up on her back legs, barking and air snapping sounds a LOT like a fear reaction. Except that she is doing it from any distance and whether or not they are moving according to you. That is what caught my attention. I really, really think someone needs eyes on this.


No. Child does not need to be moving. If she was okay at a distance I would just further work on closing the distance. There is no set distance for her now, if its in eyesight she loses all focus and will not follow basic commands she normally 100% responds to.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It' is weird to me that you refuse to record a video. What can happen when you have a kid at a distance and a dog on the leash? You have gotten so much help and it seems there is no response from you. Even belittled one great resource. I have said my ten cents.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, first I appreciate that you continue this conversation as many people in this situation just disappear. What you are describing sounds normal for a healthy youngster in this breed. The fact that it has gotten worse regarding reactivity to young kids, can also be because of the connection you have with her. Our own anxiety travels down the leash like a wireless telephone connection. I am not blaming you, just trying to look at it from a different angle. Example from my personal experience with a dog of mine (larger mutt). He was attacked by a roaming loose female Akita on a rural road. I had to hide behind a tree and thought he was going to get killed. She finally let go and he had a few puncture wounds but was physically OK. He developed dog aggression in a major way. After he passed (not related issues), I had a hard time remaining relaxed with the new dog (Wolfy Dog) who was sound and sane. It still echo's in my mind when encountering another dog 10+ years later. So I understand your anxiety and maybe your pup picks up on your tension when it comes to the interaction when you child is in sight of the dog. Even holding your breath, they can sense and respond. Could this be possible, you think? But I do think that rehoming is the best decision.


I am so adamant about it because I know it's not a normal reaction for her. I could care less ab


wolfy dog said:


> It' is weird to me that you refuse to record a video. What can happen when you have a kid at a distance and a dog on the leash? You have gotten so much help and it seems there is no response from you. I have said my ten cents.


I don't refuse to record a video. I don't have my mind wrapped up thinking about that at the moment. It's not a particularly fun time.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

This is Ava


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> No. Child does not need to be moving. If she was okay at a distance I would just further work on closing the distance. There is no set distance for her now, if its in eyesight she loses all focus and will not follow basic commands she normally 100% responds to.


She said they can be moving or not. She didn’t say they had to be moving. What I was getting at showing you my dog is what your dogs body language would look like if she was work it in prey drive. What she is telling you is it sounds like fear. Ultimately I believe you don’t have a good read on the dog or what is going on. I don’t believe you know enough to be helped through words alone. Especially without seeing what is happening.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)




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## volumedown (12 mo ago)




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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

"No. Child does not need to be moving. If she was okay at a distance I would just further work on closing the distance. There is no set distance for her now, if its in eyesight she loses all focus and will not follow basic commands she normally 100% responds to."

LOL...she's a puppy...have you tried engaging her in play like tug or fetch on a long lead with the kids at a distant in her eye sight?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> The point k
> 
> She said they can be moving or not. She didn’t say they had to be moving. What I was getting at showing you my dog is what your dogs body language would look like if she was work it in prey drive. What she is telling you is it sounds like fear. Ultimately I believe you don’t have a good read on the dog or what is going on. I don’t believe you know enough to be helped through words alone. Especially without seeing what is happening.


That's cool man, maybe I don't. I've gotten her to stop reacting at adults so much and can actually go on walks so I can read her somewhat.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> "No. Child does not need to be moving. If she was okay at a distance I would just further work on closing the distance. There is no set distance for her now, if its in eyesight she loses all focus and will not follow basic commands she normally 100% responds to."
> 
> LOL...she's a puppy...have you tried engaging her in play like tug or fetch on a long lead with the kids at a distant in her eye sight?


A couple times, but she'll turn around a nip at me for trying to get her attention away.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

For the record I'm 5'6 at 125lbs handling my soon to be 6 month girl just fine like the other day she reacted to an adult walking their large breed. I don't even work out...All this on a flat collar. Not saying she couldn't drag me if I wasn't expecting it, but I know I'm handling a puppy for a good 2 or 3 years so I'm holding well and vigilant watching a far & her.

And letting kids pet her should stop cause they could be all over her frustrating her. That can happen with many puppies. Maybe now that she's developing including her brain they are in her comfort zone. That could be a reason why she's upset too. Who knows. Between now and 3 years will be a wild ride.

Many around the 6 month mark will also get their puppy a prong collar. It won't solve the issue, but could make a difference and then work with her. It seems like she needs guidance at this early on.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> That's cool man, maybe I don't. I've gotten her to stop reacting at adults so much and can actually go on walks so I can read her somewhat.


I want you to stop jumping to conclusions like this is prey based aggression because I was told that’s the worst and this has got to be the worst. I want you to get the guidance you need to make the proper decisions. Whether that’s training, rehoming, or putting the dog down. You can find a qualified trainer in your area or you can make a video and show someone here. If you don’t know what to look for in a trainer you can always ask.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

AE316 said:


> "No. Child does not need to be moving. If she was okay at a distance I would just further work on closing the distance. There is no set distance for her now, if its in eyesight she loses all focus and will not follow basic commands she normally 100% responds to."
> 
> LOL...she's a puppy...have you tried engaging her in play like tug or fetch on a long lead with the kids at a distant in her eye sight?


For the record, Shadow would not respond to treats, toys or commands if there was a dog anywhere in eyesight when we started. Or if she could hear one. She was simply frozen in place and short of knocking her over she would not move. But the display only started if the dog moved too close-in our case about a block away. It took MASSIVE amounts of foundation work to even get her to break eye contact and look at me. And she only directed at the dog AFTER trying to bolt or slip her collar. I started behind the gate, in the yard, where she felt safe which put us 50 feet or so from the sidewalk. And even then it was a LONG road. So telling the OP to try toys and treats may very well not work. Nothing anyone was telling me worked at all and it increased my frustration exponentially.
Now I have neutrality as long as I am on my game and provided the other dog isn't right on top of her or lunging at her. The recent attack has set us way back.
My dog is decidedly fearful. Not excited or frustrated.


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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

Just as a data point, I have two daughters, one is 4.5 y/o and the other is almost 3 y/o. Our GSD is 10 months and 65+ pounds. They coexist, but for at least the first 6 months we had the dog, the dog was never been in their presence without a leash on and me within arm's reach of the leash (if not holding the leash). There were plenty of days (consecutive days at times) where I didn't feel like I could have them in the same room; not because the dog showed aggression, but because the dog is a lot to handle and the kids are, too. These days, I can put the dog on place and walk away for a minute or two when they're around (and usually if the dog breaks place it's to find me), but I'm definitely anxious when doing so. The dog is sweet and would never hurt them, but she's got a strong prey drive and the kids are small, unpredictable and don't understand boundaries. Not a good mix. So we are careful and play it safe. They are plenty content to love their puppy at a distance and the dog is content to love her kids at a distance, as well.

Not to mention, when she was in heat last month, she started barking (air snapping really) at a group of kids (probably about 10 y/o) who just wanted to come up and say hello to us on a walk. Definitely hormonal. And definitely freaked me out (not to mention embarassing). No doubt I was hyper vigilant of the dog's reaction to my kids the next few days.

Still, even at 9-10 months, she's a baby. I'm not an expert by any stretch and want to stay away from advice giving. But I'm with the others here who think that your expectations for what you expect from this dog are maybe not age appropriate and that what you're observing as uncorrectable aggression could be more normal than you think. I don't mean to be flippant, but how hard is it for you to ensure that the dog is separate from your kid for the next few months and that you avoid kids on walks, etc.?


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> I want you to stop jumping to conclusions like this is prey based aggression because I was told that’s the worst and this has got to be the worst. I want you to get the guidance you need to make the proper decisions. Whether that’s training, rehoming, or putting the dog down. You can find a qualified trainer in your area or you can make a video and show someone here. If you don’t know what to look for in a trainer you can always ask.


I am willing to work with her. I have been everyday and she's shown good improvement in other areas. Just watching a simple YouTube video from a trainer worked on some issues, for the record I am not against training. I'm not some arrogant dude who doesn't listen to anybody. I believe base level training/ OB is a complete fraud scam. Behaviorist, specialized training is completely different. But that's where foldin money comes into play.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bknmaizey said:


> Just as a data point, I have two daughters, one is 4.5 y/o and the other is almost 3 y/o. Our GSD is 10 months and 65+ pounds. They coexist, but for at least the first 6 months we had the dog, the dog was never been in their presence without a leash on and me within arm's reach of the leash (if not holding the leash). There were plenty of days (consecutive days at times) where I didn't feel like I could have them in the same room; not because the dog showed aggression, but because the dog is a lot to handle and the kids are, too. These days, I can put the dog on place and walk away for a minute or two when they're around (and usually if the dog breaks place it's to find me), but I'm definitely anxious when doing so. The dog is sweet and would never hurt them, but she's got a strong prey drive and the kids are small, unpredictable and don't understand boundaries. Not a good mix. So we are careful and play it safe. They are plenty content to love their puppy at a distance and the dog is content to love her kids at a distance, as well.
> 
> Not to mention, when she was in heat last month, she started barking (air snapping really) at a group of kids (probably about 10 y/o) who just wanted to come up and say hello to us on a walk. Definitely hormonal. And definitely freaked me out (not to mention embarassing). No doubt I was hyper vigilant of the dog's reaction to my kids the next few days.
> 
> Still, even at 9-10 months, she's a baby. I'm not an expert by any stretch and want to stay away from advice giving. But I'm with the others here who think that your expectations for what you expect from this dog are maybe not age appropriate and that what you're observing as uncorrectable aggression could be more normal than you think. I don't mean to be flippant, but how hard is it for you to ensure that the dog is separate from your kid for the next few months and that you avoid kids on walks, etc.?


She is fine with our child. It's other kids that she won't ignore.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

volumedown said:


> I am willing to work with her. I have been everyday and she's shown good improvement in other areas. Just watching a simple YouTube video from a trainer worked on some issues, for the record I am not against training. I'm not some arrogant dude who doesn't listen to anybody. I believe base level training/ OB is a complete fraud scam. Behaviorist, specialized training is completely different. But that's where foldin money comes into play.


What you need is eyes on instructions specific to your situation. You aren’t getting that from random YouTube videos. At 140 an hour, which is 140 a session, 4 times a month, you’re looking at 560, not 1400. Is that cheap or inconsequential? No. It is manageable. Posting a video here is free other than your time. It’s your dog, your money, and your time. I will tell you th answer to your problem is probably strong basic obedience. It answers a lot of questions.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

volumedown said:


> I am willing to work with her. I have been everyday and she's shown good improvement in other areas. Just watching a simple YouTube video from a trainer worked on some issues, for the record I am not against training. I'm not some arrogant dude who doesn't listen to anybody. I believe base level training/ OB is a complete fraud scam. Behaviorist, specialized training is completely different. But that's where foldin money comes into play.


For the record, I sort of agree. Sort of. I taught people basic obedience/puppy manners for free. But I am NOT a trainer, just a dummy with a dog.
Look up Shield K9. Haz has put up a number of videos for free. He was a huge help to me and my Punk, when I was seriously contemplating what the **** I was going to do with this dog. Also watch David's videos with Valor-who is a dream dog. Might give you some ideas.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

At this point, it seem like he need a local, hands on trainer that is affordable and who can evaluate this puppy. Does anyone know someone that would be within a reasonable driving distance to him? From the description, she sounds terrifying, but seeing the picture, I see a young dog that could have the capacity to learn proper behaviors in the right scenario. I think it would be very difficult for the owner to handle this situation from a video, even a very good one.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

What's your tone like during training or giving commands outside? I tend to change it outside due to distractions. Not yelling of course. But if a loud vehicle goes by I may raise it higher when trying to work. How's her leave it? Try using that and a leash correction. I tend to act confident during certain situations we are encountering than being laid back. But this could just take a few weeks or months to slowly somewhat overcome or not. Are you treating her like a baby? Or maybe even try acting goofy. Just throwing a bunch of suggestions.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I do have to chime in a little. OP a great many of these people posting have helped me with my 5 year old dog directly or indirectly. Over YEARS. 
I was on the receiving end of what I thought crazy behavior from my dog Apex he honestly scared me at times. 
People here could have probably laughed at me. People here would have had him a model dog in one walk. No one ever belittled me, laughed at me. I always recieved the best help that can be given on a forum. He is 5 now great dog. Scary little **** his first few years for me. 

I hope you can sort through the post and connect with the people who can evaluate the dog and/or help you over the next weeks find a home or sadder solution. 

There are people here I'd hand my leash to.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

volumedown said:


> View attachment 585062


This picture was taken in her most impressionable weeks on a play round. Could kids have scared her? She doesn't look relaxed here. Were your expectations that kids should be able to pet her? I keep strange kids and their parents (!!) a mile away from a GSD pup because of that landshark behavior.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> What you need is eyes on instructions specific to your situation. You aren’t getting that from random YouTube videos. At 140 an hour, which is 140 a session, 4 times a month, you’re looking at 560, not 1400. Is that cheap or inconsequential? No. It is manageable. Posting a video here is free other than your time. It’s your dog, your money, and your time. I will tell you th answer to your problem is probably strong basic obedience. It answers a lot of questions.





wolfy dog said:


> This picture was taken in her most impressionable weeks on a play round. Could kids have scared her? She doesn't look relaxed here. Were your expectations that kids should be able to pet her? I keep strange kids and their parents (!!) a mile away from a GSD pup because of that landshark behavior.


My expectations were neutral behavior.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

volumedown said:


> My expectations were neutral behavior.


But you let them pet her right? It's not fair to a pup that young to expect neutral behavior (what is that to you?) when kids pet her if you allowed kid to pet her. That requires careful management. Again, post a video.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> But you let them pet her right? It's not fair to a pup that young to expect neutral behavior (what is that to you?) when kids pet her if you allowed kid to pet her. That requires careful management. Again, post a video.


Do what? That isn't happening anymore. She doesn't allow people near her in general.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

volumedown said:


> I believe base level training/ OB is a complete fraud scam.


What a weird belief. For someone with prior experience training their own dogs and the knowledge of dog behavior that comes with that experience, a private trainer for basic obedience is generally not necessary. That doesn't mean it's fraud or a scam, just that not everyone needs it.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> What a weird belief. For someone with prior experience training their own dogs and the knowledge of dog behavior that comes with that experience, a private trainer for basic obedience is generally not necessary. That doesn't mean it's fraud or a scam, just that not everyone needs it.


It's an odd belief, sure it's just my opinion. People have some pretty wild opinions


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

volumedown said:


> Do what? That isn't happening anymore. She doesn't allow people near her in general.


I was referring to the time when she was a young as in the picture on the slide. The verb "let" in my question "_But you let them pet her right_?" was written in the past tense, meaning that something may have happened to her that you were not aware of.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> I was referring to the time when she was a young as in the picture on the slide. The verb 'let" was written in the past tense.


She was fine then, didn't care, nor was she ever uncomfortable around people. She would approach them like any pup would. Assuming anything is unfair with that, then 99% of people mishandle their dogs and they turn out great. Mine must have been the 1%.


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## Weikafei (Aug 1, 2021)

I am not as experienced as anyone that has responded but I've been reading/following this thread.

What strikes me is that you've described her aggression as being so strong that you can barely control her (at 250 lbs ish I think you said.)

I've had two bully breeds in my past with very intense dog aggression... both 75+ lbs dogs. My current GSD Vili is 9 months old and 85lbs. He has hit the end of a leash hard (with a 105lb dog in my other hand!) and I still have never felt like I barely have control. I've realized I don't have enough control though and switched him to a prong to help regain control more quickly. And... that's a dog twice the size of yours in one hand only.

I weigh less than you by quite a bit and I have never felt I could "barely control" any of the dogs I've described above, 2 of which were truly dog aggressive / leash reactive.

They've asked for videos and you've said you won't put anyone in danger (nor would anyone suggest it) but you've also said she will react at the mere sight of a child... so it doesn't seem like you need to put anyone in danger. You simply need to be close enough to trigger the reaction while someone else films it. It sounds like that means the kids could be pretty far away.

If her aggression is as bad as you say, and you spend as much time as you suggest training her, you should already be getting her trained to accept a muzzle. It will be the only way you can work with her near triggers and keep everyone safe. I've had to do this with one of the dogs above and it re opened the world back up to us because we could be back out in it and everyone would be safe.

The fact that you make such big statements about how aggressive she is but think trainers are a waste blows my mind. If you weren't having problems, I'd agree but if she's as aggressive as you describe... most responsible dog owners would find a trainer that specializes in German shepherds by this point. Especially for such a young dog.

Vili went through a really early fear period that made me very anxious. He would lose his little mind at new people, new dogs, etc. But I just kept at the socialization, the age appropriate corrections and the fear period passed. I think I've read dogs can go through 2 fear periods in puppy hood and they can be very intense and come/go without rhyme or reason.

I understand your caution considering it's children but tools, when introduced slowly and properly, like muzzles and maybe a small prong collar, you should be able to work her through it with training for how to use the tool, how to appropriately correct/redirect, etc.

It took my vet, a trainer that specialized in aggression, and the dogs breeder about 5 years to finally admit that one of the two dogs I described above had genetic aggression issues that could not be treated/trained and that were more extreme/less manageable with age. Her wires were crossed (or something.) The other dog I mentioned, who was very dog selective, had a pretty normal life (and lived with me until he was 16 happily and healthy!) - once I learned how to be an advocate for him we were a great team.

It sounds like she needs someone that knows the breed and is able to make the right assessments over the next few months to give her a chance.

Perhaps I misread but I thought you said youre in West Virginia. I'm in Michigan and I'd be willing to help with transport within the Midwest/general region to an experienced GSD trainer. I'm not experienced enough to help her be successful.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Weikafei said:


> I am not as experienced as anyone that has responded but I've been reading/following this thread.
> 
> What strikes me is that you've described her aggression as being so strong that you can barely control her (at 250 lbs ish I think you said.)
> 
> ...


I didnt say i couldn't control her, I said that in regards to how hard she's trying to get to someone. I can easily over power her and make her submit. That's clearly not the goal here. I have stated several times I'm against base level obedience training. It's a fraud. They asked for videos today and I've already said I can have my wife film it when the opportunity arises.


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## Weikafei (Aug 1, 2021)

volumedown said:


> I didnt say i couldn't control her, I said that in regards to how hard she's trying to get to someone. I can easily over power her and make her submit. That's clearly not the goal here. I have stated several times I'm against base level obedience training. It's a fraud. They asked for videos today and I've already said I can have my wife film it when the opportunity arises.


You don't have to go to a trainer for base level obedience. The one dog I mentioned had very good basic obedience on our own, I went to a trainer that specialized in aggression. We included reinforcing and improving base level obedience but the focus was on her reactivity and techniques to manage/redirect/desensitize. 

The other dog I mentioned well needed base level obedience (he wasn't out of control though) plus help with dog reactivity (I was pretty young with him as well early 20s.) The difference in the two was not basic obedience... it was one Bully breed with dog selective aggression that is very common to their genetics and could be managed while the other had some kind of genetic issue that made the aggression unmanagable as it continued to get worse / began to expand to people. The muzzle helped us tremendously in her case, but didn't solve it.

My larger point is that it took a team of people that stayed close to us over many years to get to the decision that it was genetics. 

Also the blanket statement that dog training is a fraud is ridiculous. Do you think that military and police dogs are just born that way? You don't think they all started with badic obedience under the supervision of professional dog trainers?

If your basic obedience is already super strong then a reputable/experienced trainer will give you check marks for that and focus on the problems faster.

I'm using a dog trainer for Vili... not because I don't understand how to teach a dog sit or come or down but because I want better than the basics for him and know he is going to be a powerful, large dog with guardian instincts. I'll take the help of a pro plus my own time and effort (plus my own watching of videos online) to try and do right by him. Plus bugging the really patient people on this forum. Lol


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Weikafei said:


> You don't have to go to a trainer for base level obedience. The one dog I mentioned had very good basic obedience on our own, I went to a trainer that specialized in aggression. We included reinforcing and improving base level obedience but the focus was on her reactivity and techniques to manage/redirect/desensitize.
> 
> The other dog I mentioned well needed base level obedience (he wasn't out of control though) plus help with dog reactivity (I was pretty young with him as well early 20s.) The difference in the two was not basic obedience... it was one Bully breed with dog selective aggression that is very common to their genetics and could be managed while the other had some kind of genetic issue that made the aggression unmanagable as it continued to get worse / began to expand to people. The muzzle helped us tremendously in her case, but didn't solve it.
> 
> ...


Man I've said at least 40 times in this post I wasn't talking about that type of training LOL I appreciate your input it's not possible to back and look at everything.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

volumedown said:


> She was fine then, didn't care, nor was she ever uncomfortable around people. She would approach them like any pup would. Assuming anything is unfair with that, then 99% of people mishandle their dogs and they turn out great. Mine must have been the 1%.


Don't pout. I invested my time to help you see her in a more objective way. But I guess that didn't work so I wish your dog a lot of luck. She needs it.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> Don't pout.


Appreciate the back pat guy!


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## Weikafei (Aug 1, 2021)

volumedown said:


> Man I've said at least 40 times in this post I wasn't talking about that type of training LOL I appreciate your input it's not possible to back and look at everything.


I've read much of it where people suggest training and you dismiss it a bit. My point is that it all starts with basic obedience because that is an important part of having all the tools you need to help her.

So, in theory, if your basic obedience is good (heel, sit, come, stay, down, leave it, off) you can focus the time with a professional on assessing her reactivity, management tips and figuring out the tools you need. 

If she doesn't have the basic obedience, you'll have to get that foundation while working the problem and it will take more time with a trainer to make progress where you want/need. 

Thank goodness I haven't seen anyone mention it, but with the one dog I mentioned I was initially lead down an ecollar path as a way to manage her aggression and it was the worst suggestion/training path. It set us back a whole lot. In Michigan it seems to be popular, especially with trainers that say they specialize in aggression. And they claim their technique makes it ok, despite the warning that comes with ecollars. 

I agree there are training scams out there (positive only, ecollar only, alpha training etc) and it can be daunting finding someone. But there are legit trainers too.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I read your post from Jan when she was 4 months. Mine acted the same on my property and now on walks. We only started walks about 4 or so weeks ago. At work she won't bark at others or people at other businesses near by. Sometimes she does wanting to meet them. In that post you said you didn't wanna bother with trainers. That seems to be the problem. My trainer who deals with GSD said her barking at a lot of stuff is normal. Today she barked at a tree we walked by. One time at a recycling bin including mine so I brought her to the item. She is skddish.









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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

So… you say she’s fine with your daughter and you love the dog to death. Ok… 

In your last thread, I told you that if it were me, I’d keep in mind my limits and whether I had the wherewithal to do what’s needed to work through her emerging issues. I specifically said I would consider giving her back to the breeder if your expectations for a dog in your life are incompatible with the current reality presented by this dog and a potential inability to put in the work to get the dog you want. Your response was “There is zero reason to give the dog back when she acts completely fine around us and in the house, that may just how it has to be and that's fine.”

It’s gone from that to euthanizing her in the span of her going from 4 months to 6 months. This is a very sad situation. If you continue to disregard the advice you’re getting here, Ava clearly won’t survive to 8 months. 

I’ve read every post on this thread, re-read both of your old threads and then started re-reading this thread from the beginning to revisit your earlier comments... It’s obvious to me that you’re in over your head. There’s no shame in that. Between months 8-9, we did a one-month board and train with our breeder. Not only was it great for our dog but it was exactly the reset I needed personally because I was at my own breaking point with her. GSDs are a tough breed. If you can’t or refuse to invest in the training that both you and the dog need, this is a no-win situation. And it’ll only get worse. 

The only conclusion I can draw is that the sooner you find someone experienced enough and willing to take her off your hands, the better.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It's good that someone FINALLY reread this and other threads! It's all connected. 

There's absolutely no reason to believe there's anything genetic or neurologically wrong with this puppy! It is, and always has been fine with the OP's 3 yr old!

Starts as a little reactive barking. Left to her own devices progresses to more outwardly aggressive showings, and viola. Now you have a puppy that scares you.

Not even a little bit hard to predict. This puppy needs guidance, that's it. 

If I were to guess, I'd say that foundational obedience is nowhere near where it needs to be also. But that's just me based on a couple years of seeing this same darn thing happen over and over and over.

OP hire a trainer!


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it was genetic or neurological, why is her aggression ONLY directed towards children?? Youd think if she was just wired wrong everything would be included, yet kids and other dogs are often the most common training issues, if she's fine with adults, it seems like something has happened youre not aware of, or haven't fixed imho

Charlie had problems with kids as well, id call it light fear aggression, kids always scared/irritated him, smaller they were, the more fearful/reactive he was, we worked through it and now he's perfectly fine, plays and cuddles with my nieces and nephews, with boundaries and supervision of course.

Hope you find a suitable situation for her!


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Also why did you get a puppy if you can't afford a trainer? One I was using charged about $45 for 30mins. Some young adult running a business from her basement who has no idea about GSDs. My new trainer charges $30 for 1 hour. She's retired and deals with GSD. Why did you invest in a pet like others who can't even afford vet bills that will occur? Did you not think this through financially? Why buy a Lamborghini when you can afford insurance and car payments but can't maintain it?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pretty sure the OP is just ignoring me now so I'm adding this for anyone else reading that it might help.

So first, dogs have fight or flight. Just because you are seeing Fight does not mean that's not fear driven. It's often a case of very aggressive "I'll get you before you get me". It's a very ugly, aggressive, reaction. It's not prey. It's 100% survival instinct. 

Here's the thing with trainers - even if the trainer charges $100 session, you don't need to go every single week. Or even long term. A person can go, learn, go home and apply and go back 3 weeks later when they are ready for the next step. People have this misconception that they need to drop thousands on a trainer. Yes, a trainer will charge you thousands for an out of control, adult, dog who is 1 step away from harming someone. Because they don't want to deal with a mess that should have been taken care of at 6 months and they are tired of putting their life in danger to do so. But this is not that thase.

I helped a young man that came here for help with a dog that is nervy. I've never seen such fear in a dog when she's around people and you could see it in her eyes. Two sessions and a couple of follow up videos. I gave him the tools he needed to take control of the situation. Yup....did it for free. But he did bring me a bag of cookies the first time we met. 

My male erupted at children when he was 4-6 months old in exactly how the OP describes. It's winter, kids look like little, faceless, stay puft marshmallow people moving weird and screeching. Of course a puppy will react. So I taught him the tools he needed to deal with situations where thinks scared him. This is not prey drive. It's fight or flight in a puppy that doesn't know what these things are. He's an incredibly solid dog. Not nervy. He was just a puppy. 

My Jax was dog aggressive. It was constant scanning of hte environment for other dogs and blocking people who wanted Pookie to meet the angry German Shepherd because Pookie is friendly. Tools to deal. You don't need to like the other dog. You only need to do what I say and respect that other dog's right to breathe. Again...fight or flight. And she wasn't going to back down. But again....100% fear driven response that was violent and ugly to watch.

And in both cases, these dogs erupted in a very ugly fit that scared people. They were not backing up, they were in fight mode in a situation where they felt they needed to fight to survive. My point is - you don't know what you don't know. Don't assume the dog is in prey, or any drive that we sport people think is appropriate, or the dog is genetically wired wrong. It could be a puppy that just doesn't have the tools. Even a weaker nerved dog can get past this by learning the tools needed to deal with the stressor and obedience to the handler. 

Like I told @Hopps Sunday when we spoke - I don't care what's causing it. Inappropriate aggression is inappropriate aggression. The tools to stop it are the same. A trainer will teach a person the tools. I don't even advise a person do this without a trainer because timing for corrections and rewards are so important.


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## CrystalLake (Aug 14, 2021)

volumedown said:


> This is just a vent post, to anyone who sees it you're 100% fine to leave whatever feedback you'd like. Maybe my story will show how important it is to buy from reputable breeders/meet the parents of your great GSD. It's just closure for me at this point
> 
> If you've seen my last posts on my page, I have a now 6 month old GSD female who had, and still has pretty moderate aggressive issues. Which has worsened since then with the the new addition of aggression.
> 
> ...


We currently have a 18 month old male GSD that developed similar tendencies to your dog around 6-7 months of age. He started growling and lunging, particularly at children. He was well loved, trained, socialized, and acquired from a reputable breeder. I was extremely anxious about these behaviors. We found a trainer that had years of experience with working line German shepherds. It was by no means easy, but we doubled down on training and persisted on exposing him to uncomfortable situations. I invested much money and time in training. I also went through a couple trainers before we found the right fit. Our vet was no help. Vets are wonderful resources, but not behavior experts. At 6 months, your GSD is still a puppy. She is still learning about the world around her and sometimes reacting inappropriately to situations where she feels insecure for whatever reason. I think you need to ask yourself whether you have the time and patience to put in the training she needs. Sometimes we do not end up with the easy dog. If you have children at home, maybe you do not have the time required. I certainly would not euthanize her. Find a trainer that is familiar with the breed to work with her or rehome her to someone familiar with GSDs. She is way too young to be dismissed as aggressive. Today our 18 month GSD is totally fine and relaxed with children, that also includes bikers, horses, cows, coyotes, skateboarders, etc, etc, etc…He used to get really riled up and lunge and snap. He needed extensive training and time to grow and learn. We get complements on him all the time today. Often these “wonderful GSDs” have a trainer/ owner that has put in extensive work to get the dog to that point. I am sure some dogs are easier than others, but in general, you have a teach a puppy how you want them to act.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Without seeing the dog or when you are rewarding/correcting, I can't give input on your particular situation. That's why I tell people to work with a trainer. Timing is everything.

I don't "avoid" situations. I work thru them.


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

Also, one more thing, forgive me, I feel like, if you're not used to high drive working dogs or intense breeds in general, reactivity and fear aggression, in a GSD especially, can look REALLY bad to the average dog owner, when, to any experienced GSD handler, its apart of having a working dog(to an extent of course) 

As David Winners above, his dog would have frightened most people quite a bit, so maybe that's what's going on here? You said yourself you've always experienced easy going friendly GSDs, and haven't had her evaluated by a professional, therefore she might not be AS BAD as youre really thinking she is, just isn't a fit for your home.

I know Charlie's dislike and fear of kids really caught me off guard at first too, I was also worried he might be messed up, but I soon realized, through this forum and among my own research, they just scared him, a lot. He was young, just as yours is, and still getting used to the world, now, at 16 months old he doesn't mind children at all.

but, as stated before im nowhere near as knowledgeable as some of the people above me, just sharing some of my thoughts

I'll try and ask around about potential homes as well, i live next to you, kind of, in KY.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> Also why did you get a puppy if you can't afford a trainer? One I was using charged about $45 for 30mins. Some young adult running a business from her basement who has no idea about GSDs. My new trainer charges $30 for 1 hour. She's retired and deals with GSD. Why did you invest in a pet like others who can't even afford vet bills that will occur? Did you not think this through financially? Why buy a Lamborghini when you can afford insurance and car payments but can't maintain it?


Lol dude, I wish rates were 30 dollars for an hour. That's a breeze. I've seen as much as 2,500 for room and board to 175 an hour for each session. The same can be said for having a child. I have the resources to deal with issues at hand. I have financial means to afford basic training that I have already done with her. This is an outlining issue that is either genetic, or will take massive amounts of efforts to become neutral. Lay off the pep talk guy. I've owned several dogs and I've never encountered this issue before, so I appreciate your feedback but it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Pretty sure the OP is just ignoring me now so I'm adding this for anyone else reading that it might help.
> 
> So first, dogs have fight or flight. Just because you are seeing Fight does not mean that's not fear driven. It's often a case of very aggressive "I'll get you before you get me". It's a very ugly, aggressive, reaction. It's not prey. It's 100% survival instinct.
> 
> ...


Not ignoring, I don't get email notifications some times. Going through them now.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's good that someone FINALLY reread this and other threads! It's all connected.
> 
> There's absolutely no reason to believe there's anything genetic or neurologically wrong with this puppy! It is, and always has been fine with the OP's 3 yr old!
> 
> ...


She was not "left to her own devices" she's been a constant work and improving in several areas, but I appreciate it.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Bknmaizey said:


> So… you say she’s fine with your daughter and you love the dog to death. Ok…
> 
> In your last thread, I told you that if it were me, I’d keep in mind my limits and whether I had the wherewithal to do what’s needed to work through her emerging issues. I specifically said I would consider giving her back to the breeder if your expectations for a dog in your life are incompatible with the current reality presented by this dog and a potential inability to put in the work to get the dog you want. Your response was “There is zero reason to give the dog back when she acts completely fine around us and in the house, that may just how it has to be and that's fine.”
> 
> ...


Your reading skills may be a bit off then, because I've said multiple times here that I won't be euthanizing her. That's just what I was told my only option was from some people. I am not in over my head with anything. Again, if you've reread this as claimed, you would have seen she's improved in alot of areas. She's been a big work. NOBODY wants an animal of any kind that will seriously injure a child. Thats a GENUINE concern of mine, as it should be for anyone else. I'm pleased you did one month room and board for you dog, here, two weeks is 2500 dollars. Your average American household in current times can not afford such a financial impact.


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## volumedown (12 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Without seeing the dog or when you are rewarding/correcting, I can't give input on your particular situation. That's why I tell people to work with a trainer. Timing is everything.
> 
> I don't "avoid" situations. I work thru them.


If you're willing to private message, i would rather do that.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think you should private message whomever you feel comfortable with. This thread is going nowhere. Sniping back and forth is not a productive or helpful discussion.PM me if you'd like to update when you've figured it out.


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