# AKC Registery question. How do they *prove* it?



## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I have been scanning over random threads and I see a lot of posts saying their dogs are registered but they want to be sure they are purebred, etc. I'm guessing these people adopted from BYBs. So my question is; how is it *proven* who the mom and dad are? Don't you take the word of the breeder for the most part, even if AKC registering? Can they lie about who it is easily enough if they have the AKC numbers of another dog?
I am not a breeder and do not plan to bred. This is just a question that crossed my mind when I was searching for a pup. Let me know if my question isn't clear enough


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Not really an answer to your question, but having an AKC registered dog means nothing except the dog is purebred. 

You can have the absolute worst dog, with the worst temperament, and the most health problems and still be AKC registered. There's no credentials other than the puppy/dogs sire and dam must be registered... that's it.

There are plenty of BYB dogs that are registered with the AKC.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I know all of this, and yes- that wasn't my question 



Lucy Dog said:


> Not really an answer to your question, but having an AKC registered dog means nothing except the dog is purebred.
> 
> You can have the absolute worst dog, with the worst temperament, and the most health problems and still be AKC registered. There's no credentials other than the puppy/dogs sire and dam must be registered... that's it.
> 
> There are plenty of BYB dogs that are registered with the AKC.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Well, people have been forging things since the beginning of time, so it definitely is possible and I'm sure has happened. 

Go to a breeder with a solid reputation with known dogs in their pedigree and this is probably not something you're going to have to worry about. For the reasons I mentioned above, there's really no need for a reputable breeder to forge an AKC registration when there are so many more important things to worry about - health, pedigree, temperament, etc. The registration type would be the least of my worries.

Go to joe schmoe breeding their pet quality dogs in the back shed than maybe you might come across some forgery.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

You might want to take a look at this too: American Kennel Club - DNA and the AKC


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

I think the only way you can "prove" is through submission of the DNA profile of both parents. I don't know exactly how many breeders make use of this, though.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

JenniferF said:


> Can they lie about who it is easily enough if they have the AKC numbers of another dog?


No where near that easy. For starters, information printed on the AKC certificate of the bitch is required, and that information isn't something someone without the certificate in front of them would be likely to know. The person registering the litter must be the owner of record of the bitch, or if leasing her have a lease agreement on file with AKC that is signed by both owner and leasee. AKC will only mail registration paperwork to the address they have on file for the bitch's owner (or leasee). They also have to be signed by the owner of the stud.

So while someone could lie or cheat or forge documents I guess there are some safeguards in place. Knowing a dog's registered name and number isn't going to be enough to get pups from that dog registered in the name of anyone but the owner. And really, what reason would the owner of the dog have to lie about who the parents are? It has happened with studs in the past, hence the DNA requirement on males. But with females it's usually pretty obvious. The bitch with the droopy boobs that the pups are following around is the dam of the litter.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Ooh okay. Yeah it crossed my mind after seeing how easy it was to register my puppy. I don't have a doubt about the guy I adopted but was curious. thanks for the replies


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

There are two parts to the registration process. First registering the litter, which is where all the documentation and signatures for sire and dam are needed. Then individually registering the pups. The later is much easier if the first part has been done and doesn't require any real verification. The first part, to get those individual registration applications on each pup, is more involved. Still not difficult, but not something that would be easy to fake.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Not sure I completely agree with Chris. My neighbor, who has bred Beagles for years, has lied about sires before. The dog on the paperwork was dead, another male bred the female, but he said it was the other male (since that was a better male). No one checks to see how many pups in a litter, so you could say 10 were born, when only 5 and use the other 5 papers on other pups from another litter. Not difficult to cheat the system at all. There is no one that comes by and checks sire and dams of litters. It is an honor system, and we know how much honor is out there, dont we.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The original question was if someone could lie if they just knew a dog's registration number. If that person isn't the owner, then it would be quite a bit more tricky. If the person is the owner, we'll sure they could lie, though again its sort of hard to fake the bitch, at least when the pups are young to anyone who can actually see her. 

I did say that it has happened before with studs, and there are more than a few well documented cases of that, which is why DNA is now required on studs being used more than a few times. 

If dealing with a reputable breeder, this really shouldn't be an issue. If not dealing with a reputable breeder, I think forged papers are only one of many possible concerns, but also one that can be verified with a DNA check.


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## William Branum (Feb 22, 2012)

Can someone explain the genetic markers (letters) in an AKC genotype analysis? What does it mean when all the pairs of markers (letters) match except (pez12) and (pez17)? Could this mean that the parents of the dog was very closely related and they passed the same genes to the offspring? Also, what is the most common appearing markers in the GSD genotype?.... Thanks


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

You might want to start your own thread with this question as the topic...and I have no idea for your question


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Chris Wild said:


> I did say that it has happened before with studs, and there are more than a few well documented cases of that, which is why DNA is now required on studs being used more than a few times.
> \.


I know they DNA test males who are used more than a few times, but nobody ever tests the puppies? Both my dogs' sires have their DNA on file at the AKC, but so far as I know, neither of my dogs have ever been tested to make sure they are in fact the sons of those fathers. What's to keep them from being the sons of the neighbor's lab who climbed the fence and got in with the bitch? (I know they're not; it's just a hypothetical.)


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

as far as I know, they only test the puppies if there is a complaint. Is that correct?


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