# Positive Only vs. "Balanced" Trainer- need seasoned advice!



## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

I've been going to my positive only trainer with bear since he was 3.5 months old, the trainer is a great person, but classes have become what feels like "social hour" where we focus on one "trick" per class and the owners pretty much just catch up with eachother. The trainer focuses on using treats to get whatever you want (I've asked about toy/praised based options to little avail) which simply does not always work with bear. I need more leadership training as opposed to teaching tricks and I don't think this guy is able to provide that.

As a result I contacted a trainer that someone here recommended (I live in Hawaii so there are VERY few options for trainers). This man is very accustomed to GSDs, something my current trainer is not...he is the state shutzhund club president and trains the military dogs here on our base for a living. If he works with the police dogs on a marine corps base, I feel like I can trust his ability to train, BUT Bear is not and never will be a police dog so I'm not sure if his methods are exactly what we need. 

Most of his suggestions for training are common sense, but he also wants me to get a prong collar and expects bear to walk in a full-on heel for walks. I have no doubt he can get bear to do this....BUT it all seems very unforgiving for a 6 month old puppy. I don't think he means Bear harm obviously...but of all the issues we have absolutely NONE OF THEM involve aggression, and my fear is that prongs/corrections could produce aggression issues. 

I'm not sure what to do...though Bear has had no behavior incidents, our neighbors have already called the police for me dropping bears leash by accident in public *he didn't even realize i had dropped it* but in a military community there are severe penalties for not having your dog under COMPLETE control, this includes your dog not pulling you down the street- which Bear is more than capable of at 6 months and 78 lbs. The front-clip harness isn't working and my husband isn't here to help. I know this is long winded but I know this new trainer will help me get Bear under control...but at what cost? I want my dog to continue loving and trusting me. Help!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Ugh... he sounds more like an old-school trainer to me. Did he tell you to get a prong collar for a six month old dog? Did he specify which kind of prong? 

What I would do is to drive out there and watch him train other people. Also a full on heel while walking the dog is kind of weird. No Schutzhund Person I know actually does that. There is a huge difference between loose leash walking and a full on heel.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know your pain. I agree with the suggestion to go watch. In my experience, the law enformcemt folks I have met actually have the right balance between motivation and correction compared with the AKC competition folks (much more compulsion than I like) and the behaviorists (where everyone goes to the postive only classes then sneaks out their prong collars when they are home)

I pretty much have three walking styles now. Loose Leash Walking where he is still basically in a loose heel position but relaxed, Free walking (on lead) where he has permission to sniff and use the whole lead, and Heel (classical complete focus and looking at me) For Beau I found that the Loose Leash is most of what we do.

I would get out an go watch every dog thing you can and make connections that way. I enrolled Beau in agility and have found some folks there who "get it" and got someone's card and may work with her to help me with some fine tuning (we have to do an obedience control test in September through a police organization).

No schutzhund clubs in Hawaii? That would e a good group of folks to tap into as they also seem to be up with similar training philosophies.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

If you let us know what problems you're having with Bear perhaps members can advise you of different methods and you can decide what would suit you and Bear best. 

Personally I would try without tools if possible, and try them only if you have no success with gentler methods. 

I gather from your post that one of the problems you're have is walking Bear on a loose leash.

There are two really good ways to teach loose leash walking. Have a read and take a look and see which way would be best for you and Bear. You can actually incorporate and use both methods.

Method I 
This method really does work. But the key is consistancy. If you allow Bear to pull because you want to get somewhere quickly ot you can't be bothered - you'll undo all your good work. 

I taught our 5 yr old rescue to walk on a loose lead in no time with this method. But *timing* and *consistancy* are everything. 

It's wiser to skip your normal walks for a few days - and take Bear out a few times a day (5 or 10 minutes) at a time while you're training him to walk on a loose leash. If you try and do it on a normal walk you'll get fed up, and let it slip. It also takes a lot of brain power on your dogs part to figure out what he needs to do - and that's very tiring for him. 

Basically Bear wants to go for a walk and he'll soon figure out that the only way he is going anywhere is if he stays by your side - or in front of you if you prefer - that's up to you. 

Use a six foot leash, and if Bear starts to go off in front of you - *stop *- *before* he hits the end of the leash. Stand still and remain calm. Bear may well carry on to the end of the leash and pull like crazy, ignore him, just stand still. He will eventually calm down and relax on the leash (if you are consistant and don't give in). When he stops pulling he may come back to you on his own accord - if he doesn't - just pat your leg, back yourself up and call his name to encourage him. As soon as he is back with you - say 'good boy" and walk forward, as you give him a treat (treats are optional). His real reward is being allowed to walk forward. 

Be very consistant, as soon as Bear starts to get in front of you -*stop *- *before* he hits the end of the leash - and repeat above. Don't tell him to 'come' or whatever word you use for the recall - you don't want to confuse him. You must stop and stand still *before* he hits the end of the leash, otherwise he'll just get used to pulling. 

Once he realises you always stop - he'll stop pulling - it's surprising how quickly he'll pick it up. 

Don't forget to give Bear loads of praise regularly when he is walking how you want him to. Once he has the idea you can put a name to it such as 'heel, or 'close'- but only when he is walking by your side, so that he understands exactly what you expect of him.

If you're happy for him to walk in front use the word 'steady' maybe.

Never let him pull, if you do, he'll trying harder next time. 

Don't forget when he is walking happily and not pulling - praise him regularly. It's so easy just to ignore our dogs when they are behaving - it's good for them to know how pleased we are with them, so plenty of praise. 

Method 2









 
Good luck 
_________
Sue


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Dog Trainer Search

https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer/YghZP

I think you probably are just looking for a class where you DO something! Sometimes an AKC STAR class, or CGC class will do that. 

Good luck!


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

A prong collar is only dangerous if it is used wrong. Providing a quick sideways pop at the right moment is a good teaching tool for heeling.

That trainer sounds like he knows what he's doing, so give it a shot. If you are not comfortable using those methods, try someplace else. Unless there are some over-the-top corrections going on, going and trying those methods is not going to do any harm.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You will never have a reliably well trained dog with positive only training. It just won't happen. What you are describing of training turning into a mostly social hour is very common. I've found that the schools that do positive only here in town, just teach the owners to be happy about not training their dogs.

If this new trainer is a balanced trainer, that is the way to go and you will need a prong collar, but not normally until close to 6 months of age. Just because your dog is wearing it, doesn't mean that you will be using it that much. 

What I would look for in the trainer, is if he takes the time to show the dog what he wants in a positive manner and then after the dog understands the exercise, does he begin to correct him in a fair and consistent manner while praising him for doing things right.

It's too bad that you have to have your dog heel when just out for a walk. Maybe just learning how to walk nicely at your side will be fine?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Elaine said:


> You will never have a reliably well trained dog with positive only training.


Sigh... You will never have a reliably trained dog when you have misconceptions about the style of training you are trying to implement. "Positive Only" training is *not* an _unbalanced_ method of training. Those who think that there are no consequences to actions in the "positive only" training structure are absolutely fooling themselves. Go read a book on the topic or something.

Does this look like a reliably well trained dog? Of course it does, because R+ training *is* a balanced approach when done correctly. Just like one could argue that compulsion can be a balanced approach _when done correctly_.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I honestly think the BEST trainers know both types of tools and approaches and use what is needed for a given situation. I truly believe there are shades of grey and you train the individual dog, not the philosophy.

I am certainly not the best trainer by far and think you can't consider yourself a dog trainer unless you have trained multiple dogs, multiple breeds and temperaments.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wildo said:


> Sigh... You will never have a reliably trained dog when you have misconceptions about the style of training you are trying to implement. "Positive Only" training is *not* an _unbalanced_ method of training. Those who think that there are no consequences to actions in the "positive only" training structure are absolutely fooling themselves. Go read a book on the topic or something.
> 
> Does this look like a reliably well trained dog? Of course it does, because R+ training *is* a balanced approach when done correctly. Just like one could argue that compulsion can be a balanced approach _when done correctly_.
> "Positive" Dog Training sgda - YouTube


 
Interesting post as I had only experienced PO instructors who literally NEVER gave the dog any correction - just praise/reward whyen the dog did it right, and ignored anything wrong.

What are you saying the balance is between? Would it be praise/reward vs a correction (of any sort)?

If not between these, then what is the balance between?

Thanks.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I believe the training is all about controlling reinforcement. What I would consider a good R+ trainer is one who understands how to do that. It's not about ignoring problem behaviors- rather about not allowing the dog to steal reinforcement in problem situations. Even in the video I posted, you can see such a situation. Susan asked for a sit at 2:07 in the video. Swagger's response was slow. He was making a choice in how he wanted to respond to that command. His choice was that it was more reinforcing for him to slowly respond. She didn't accept that- she reset him and tried again. This time his response was much faster, and he therefore earned reinforcement. This is just a simple example. Another example was at 2:38 where she asked for a down and Swagger offered a sit instead. At that moment, he made a choice that a sit was more reinforcing than a down. But she didn't reward and didn't continue on. She reset him and tried again. Inappropriate behaviors are simply not tolerated.

Another one that consistently comes up on here is a dog barking at a trial. People seem to think that R+ trainers would just "ignore" that barking dog hoping that the barking would stop. Ludicrous. Of course the dog isn't going to stop on his own! He's getting reinforcement from barking at every little thing! A good R+ trainer would take control of the reinforcement by moving the dog further away so the dog was below threshold. They would then work a counterconditioning plan to better socialize the dog to the distracting environment of the trial. Problem behaviors are NOT ignored, they are simply not permitted and certainly not reinforced (whether that is via the trainer *or* the dog).

I've had the privilege (yes, I'm calling it a _privilege!_) of watching Susan train Swagger from 5 weeks old (she bred him) up to 12 months old through her PuppyPeaks program. It's three to nine videos every week for an entire year. So I have a pretty darn good understanding of her training style and how she handles problem behaviors. Let me tell you- she is absolutely as "hard" of a trainer as any "old school" trainer around. Her difference is that she doesn't need physical or verbal corrections to accomplish the same. She absolutely without question does not tolerate problem behaviors. They are identified, and a plan put together to address them. As her and many other R+ trainers have said- positive is _not_ permissive. I think that she epitomizes that statement.

And I say that all because that's really the key to training- isn't it? To be clear in your requirements. To not be permissive of problem behaviors. To control reinforcement to the point where you can overcome those problem behaviors. After all- dogs have adapted to humans because it is _reinforcing_ for them to do so. They will repeat behaviors that are reinforced.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I started asking my (not your's, haha) Bear to loose leash walk about a week ago. She is now 7 months. Before that she's been on flexi. She's a shy dog in public so the flexi helped her build confidence. 

I think the training methods, like some other posters already said, depends on the dog. For me, it also depends on the handler. It's a partnership, so the method has to work for both of you. All positive method (and I meant that as a description of a type of training, not the coined "positive" training method by professional trainers since I don't know how professional trainers' define "positive") is not gonna get far with Bear. She will do it when there are treats and will do focus heeling, but if you cut off the treats... good bye. With a hard headed dog like mine, corrections made her respect me more. It didn't break her spirit or love me less. In fact, she's much more attentive when I let her off leash after I just corrected her multiple times on leash. And when I call her back to leash her, she still happily comes and sits for the leash. Her recall also improved when I finally figure out how to correct her when she runs off and refuse to come back. Treats and happy voice will not get her back to me. 

I don't use a prong but I do use a slip lead when training and pops it for correction. She also get lots of treats when training. The popping is for when she acts deaf.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

BRAVO WILLY, excellent posts!!! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jocoyn said:


> I honestly think the BEST trainers know both types of tools and approaches and use what is needed for a given situation. I truly believe there are shades of grey and you train the individual dog, not the philosophy.


:thumbup: I hate the term "balanced". What exactly does that mean anyway? It implies that if you use any training method/s other than what the person using the term advocates, your training is unbalanced.  To me, it's just a buzzword.

There's nothing wrong with prong collars used correctly, but it's completely unrealistic to expect a 6 month old dog to walk perfectly at heel. That takes a lot of time and training, and I personally think it takes a LOT of reinforcement for proper positioning, so the dog actually learns what "heel" _means_, and not just what it doesn't mean. 

Someone who has been training for decades, knows GSDs well, and has trained military and/or police dogs can either be very good or someone I'd avoid like the plague. Our nosework trainer worked at Lackland AFB training military working dogs for patrol and detection before moving to the Bay Area, and he uses marker training with food and toy rewards, as well as corrections, when appropriate. 

At 6 months old I'd be doing a lot of motivational stuff with Bear, and if this trainer does that along with using a prong, fine. Definitely observe before signing up for anything.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The fellow who has helped our team the most was also trained at Lackland, worked as a bomb dog trainer, then went into law enforcement. He too is very much about motivational but will even correct a dog doing scent work. It is all about the exact situation.

I am getting a NICE drop on recall from him because he taught me to never throw the toy between you and him but throw it behind him; he says that helps with the stay and is clearly motivational. The folks I have been working with at the training school I am certain would use the prong and two people for this...I decided not to move on with them for several reasons. (The good guy is in New Hampshire, bummer)

On the converse he corrects being a knucklehead with the prong and even dogs messing with the indication once they know what they are supposed to do and THAT is the key. Dog has to know what is expected before the correction.


The local NAPWDA Master Trainer about an hour from me is also very good and helped me with getting the tug back and it was a mix of correction AND reward for releasing, with the reward being more tug play.

I guess I have been blessed with knowing some GOOD LE dog handlers. I do have to admit I HAVE seen some really bad stuff in another county! TO me the prong is only a pay attention remider, and I am working on transitioining back to a flat collar or a martingale.........I decided the folks at the dog training place were not for me as if the dog reacted negatively to a hard correction they wanted to continue the fight. I don't want to go there. THEY have labs who will take anything and I am not so sure a GSD will.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Sir Bear, to avoid future leash drop issues, take a strong carabiner, fasten onto your belt (not belt loop), then clip your dog's leash to the carabiner. When we do our training walks, I walk Renji hands-free. His leash is clipped to the carabiner on my belt and I have my hands free to click/treat. Added bonus: if I get tense, he won't feel it through the leash.  Added bonus #2: when we are hanging out and he decides to lunge, he can't go very far!

I did my best to keep things as positive and motivational as possible. Yes, I did use corrections but apparently not to the level I needed. One of my trainers showed me that yes, I needed to have a heavier hand with Renji. While I still train with balls and the treat bag and with the clicker (and use the clicker both ways), if I need to correct, I'm not afraid to do so. Renji's spirit is not broken; in fact, he pays attention more. Not only that, but he is now much easier to handle around other dogs. He is more focused on me and listens much better. I am very careful to still use lots of positive, motivational, fun training; I now better see what the balance is for him. Renji is finally starting to be more like a normal dog. It wasn't a path I wanted to take but I wanted a dogI could go out on a walk with and not worry about him trying to lunge at something. R+ methods such as counter-conditioning serves as the best foundation ever and introducing compulsion as necessary builds in that extra little bit. 

Recognize also that for some dogs, requesting a down and having noncompliance may mean the dog has given in to the impulse to kill that other dog that's been giving the stinkeye for the past two minutes. There is no second chance to "reset" and ask for another down. By contrast, if "down" is commanded, the dog knows that "down" usually results in toys or games or food or pets/praise but disobeying also results in a short burst of pain, the dog may just decide it's of greater benefit to ignore the other stimulus, down, and look up, waiting for goodies. In my case, I did this not because I want a dog that looks perfect and snappy when doing an obedience routine. Every now and then Renji gives in to drive to go after another dog and I needed that to STOP. A crooked sit or slow down can be easily fixed with R+. The complexities of past experiences and poor breeding add loopholes. I will also fully accept that I am not yet good enough to address all his issues using just motivational methods.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

You might also want to try a dog backpack on Bear. At six months, I don't know what the load should be but maybe a ball on each side, just something that he feels the weight. We have made the most progress on our walks by using a backpack. From the moment it's on Renji, he is in a working mindset and his brain seems to stay more focused and collected. He keeps under threshold which allows me to keep up a high rate of reinforcement for staying next to me, not reacting to other dogs or people, looking up at me, etc. No, Bear does NOT need to do a competition heel with you on walks. Walks are supposed to be a stress relief, not a drill. 

If you are mixed about the prong, a martingale collar will give you somewhat similar results. I like the prong a lot. It does not build aggression, per se, but it can agitate and build drive so it wasn't a good tool for us to do what we needed. The backpack, carabiner, TREATS TREATS TREATS, and classes help us the most.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

DianaM said:


> Sir Bear, to avoid future leash drop issues, take a strong carabiner, fasten onto your belt (not belt loop), then clip your dog's leash to the carabiner. When we do our training walks, I walk Renji hands-free. His leash is clipped to the carabiner on my belt and I have my hands free to click/treat. Added bonus: if I get tense, he won't feel it through the leash.  Added bonus #2: when we are hanging out and he decides to lunge, he can't go very far!
> 
> I did my best to keep things as positive and motivational as possible. Yes, I did use corrections but apparently not to the level I needed. One of my trainers showed me that yes, I needed to have a heavier hand with Renji. While I still train with balls and the treat bag and with the clicker (and use the clicker both ways), if I need to correct, I'm not afraid to do so. Renji's spirit is not broken; in fact, he pays attention more. Not only that, but he is now much easier to handle around other dogs. He is more focused on me and listens much better. I am very careful to still use lots of positive, motivational, fun training; I now better see what the balance is for him. Renji is finally starting to be more like a normal dog. It wasn't a path I wanted to take but I wanted a dogI could go out on a walk with and not worry about him trying to lunge at something. R+ methods such as counter-conditioning serves as the best foundation ever and introducing compulsion as necessary builds in that extra little bit.
> 
> Recognize also that for some dogs, requesting a down and having noncompliance may mean the dog has given in to the impulse to kill that other dog that's been giving the stinkeye for the past two minutes. There is no second chance to "reset" and ask for another down. By contrast, if "down" is commanded, the dog knows that "down" usually results in toys or games or food or pets/praise but disobeying also results in a short burst of pain, the dog may just decide it's of greater benefit to ignore the other stimulus, down, and look up, waiting for goodies. In my case, I did this not because I want a dog that looks perfect and snappy when doing an obedience routine. Every now and then Renji gives in to drive to go after another dog and I needed that to STOP. A crooked sit or slow down can be easily fixed with R+. The complexities of past experiences and poor breeding add loopholes. I will also fully accept that I am not yet good enough to address all his issues using just motivational methods.


I can relate to so much of what was said in this post! For one, I finally came to my senses that my leash popping needs to go up a notch. Once it was set at the right level, training improved quickly and the benefit of improving one behavior began to spill over to other behaviors. My trainer has told me how to pop it before and that when ignored I need to do it stronger. But I was worried about hurting her so didn't do it like I was taught till I finally came to my senses that a pop is not useful if not taken seriously and may actually end up encouraging her to ignore me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wildo said:


> I believe the training is all about controlling reinforcement. What I would consider a good R+ trainer is one who understands how to do that. It's not about ignoring problem behaviors- rather about not allowing the dog to steal reinforcement in problem situations. Even in the video I posted, you can see such a situation. Susan asked for a sit at 2:07 in the video. Swagger's response was slow. He was making a choice in how he wanted to respond to that command. His choice was that it was more reinforcing for him to slowly respond. She didn't accept that- she reset him and tried again. This time his response was much faster, and he therefore earned reinforcement. This is just a simple example. Another example was at 2:38 where she asked for a down and Swagger offered a sit instead. At that moment, he made a choice that a sit was more reinforcing than a down. But she didn't reward and didn't continue on. She reset him and tried again. Inappropriate behaviors are simply not tolerated.
> 
> Another one that consistently comes up on here is a dog barking at a trial. People seem to think that R+ trainers would just "ignore" that barking dog hoping that the barking would stop. Ludicrous. Of course the dog isn't going to stop on his own! He's getting reinforcement from barking at every little thing! A good R+ trainer would take control of the reinforcement by moving the dog further away so the dog was below threshold. They would then work a counterconditioning plan to better socialize the dog to the distracting environment of the trial. Problem behaviors are NOT ignored, they are simply not permitted and certainly not reinforced (whether that is via the trainer *or* the dog).
> 
> ...


 
Could you guess what she would do with a dog who does counter surfing - grabs stuff if it is left on the counter (or coffee table)?

I was told, with a straight face believe it or not, to "not leave anything on the counter that the dog wants", by a noted positive only pro trainer in this area.

I was told that even a verbal "NO" was "punishment" and "wasn't fair to the dog!".

So everyone can see where my "skeptical" attitude toward a PO approach comes from. And this is without even going close to what this same trainer told me about how to cure my dog's sometimes DA.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I *do* think it is possible that an positive only approach can work but I don't think most APDT trainers are fully equipped with the skillset to make that happen let alone the average dog owner. I am always trying to build new things into my toolkit and it was a postive only approach that got Grim to quit barking at everyone who went by the truck but it took a special trainer to help with that and it was after other positive, then negative methods failed.

I also realize that for Beau running in and jumping on the bed the best thing IS to close the door because he may have to jump on a bed when working a cadaver problem so living with a dog who has to be able to walk on counters, climb on furniture, etc has some special challenges-- though it may be the poor generalization skills of dogs could be put to work (situational house behavior vs search behavior) I found out that correcting him was rewarding him because he got a fight out of it, something to consider. By ignoring him and rewarding something else that I wanted maybe we will get there. 

So, for now, I am NOT throwing away the prong but always willing to learn new tricks. Who knows, I am 56 and not too many wild GSDs on the horizon - maybe by the time I learn more, I will be able to manage a terrier!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry that I am not up to date on the problems you are having with your puppy. 

I think you should trust your gut and accept that your current trainer is not going where you want to go.

If your dog is not extremely soft in temperament, putting a prong collar on the dog will not scar the dog for life. This will change your pulling problem. I challenge you to make it a temporary training crutch and not a necessary part of how you control your dog if you choose to try this method. 

If the dog is very soft or handler sensitive, a prong collar might not be the best bet. 

If you cannot get past the idea of a prong collar it will not work for you. 

Why not give this guy six or eight weeks, don't let him correct your dog. Don't let him bully you into doing something with your dog that you do not think is right. But be clear with what you want to accomplish in the six or eight weeks, like, heeling, sit, stay, come, down, etc. 

Training your dog to walk at your side is actually a good thing to do. Once your class is over, you may relax that and give him the heel command when you cross streets, and then give him and OK to release him, but the leash must stay loose -- that is his job, he can go back and forth, sniff, but not drag. 

Training the dog to a certain level is an excellent thing you can do for your dog. It will build the bond. So long as you are not using draconian methods, I think you might do very well with the trainer.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Could you guess what she would do with a dog who does counter surfing - grabs stuff if it is left on the counter (or coffee table)?


Susan Garrett is quite famous for her It's Yer Choice (IYC) game- a game of impulse control where she teaches the dog that food is off limits unless it is handed to the dog. So that is exactly what she would say about the counter surfing- she would tell you to so more IYC work to build impulse control.



jocoyn said:


> I *do* think it is possible that an positive only approach can work but I don't think most APDT trainers are fully equipped with the skillset to make that happen let alone the average dog owner.
> 
> So, for now, I am NOT throwing away the prong but always willing to learn new tricks. Who knows, I am 56 and not too many wild GSDs on the horizon - maybe by the time I learn more, I will be able to manage a terrier!


I couldn't agree more with this. Do I still own a prong? Yes. Do I still use it- Yes, on occasion. But I am very much shifting not just my training philosophy but also my actually practice to R+ methods. I still get pissed sometimes for lack of response or incorrect response, and sometimes I still do a collar pop. But I can tell you that each time I do it, I think about how I was not being clear or maybe expecting too much. Or perhaps my dog isn't in a trainable mood at the time- she's not a robot after all. In general I think it takes immense skill to be a really effective R+ trainer- definitely more skill than with compulsion techniques.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Could you guess what she would do with a dog who does counter surfing - grabs stuff if it is left on the counter (or coffee table)?
> 
> I was told, with a straight face believe it or not, to "not leave anything on the counter that the dog wants", by a noted positive only pro trainer in this area.
> 
> ...


Your scepticism is unfounded. You can take extremes of any method and form an incorrect opinion. There are trainers who would severely punish a dog for a minor offence. Does that make all compulsive trainers really bad and cruel. Of course it doesn't.

You weren't impressed with the PO trainer you had - does that mean there's all the same - of course it doesn't. 

I belong to a positive forum and everyone uses something to indicate inappropriate behaviour, usually 'Arrrrh-Arrrrh' or similar before redirecting to a better behaviour. 

I really see no harm at all in trying your very best with positive training - what harm can it do? Dogs are not humans and yet we expect them to live in our world and understand what we want from them - and if they don't understand they are stupid dogs who deserve to be punished. 

How many people say, no matter what method is used 'I tried that it didn't work'. It never occurs to them that it's not the dog at fault, or the method, but the handler. 

Would you prefer a trainer to advice you to clean your counters to stop your dog stealing, or one that advised you to give your dog an electric shock. I know which trainer I would prefer. 

As a matter of interest how did she advice you to cure your dogs DA? 
_________
Sue


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## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

Thank you all for the wonderful and detailed responses! Most of the issues I'm having with Bear involve loose leash walking and leadership issues on my part (i.e. providing consistent expectations) I think Bear and myself are kind of frustrated with each other - so it isn't so much an issue of teaching him to sit/stay/etc, it's attention/focus/leadership. I empathize with those that likened positive only to someone convincing you it's ok not to train your dog, it's frustrating. I do think it can provide results, I just think Bear needs more than that.

I really liked the new trainer, he made a point to emphasize praise, raising his drive and keeping him engaged. He said he uses treats, clickers, prongs, etc so he doesn't seem hyper negative by any means, he's just not afraid of training tools. I suppose prongs just freak me out but I'm opening up to it. This guy had bear more excited about a tug toy in 5 minutes than I've ever been able to accomplish...which was nice to see. I should also specify he didn't mean a full heal during walks, he meant loose leash next to me (I testament to my lack of training terms) 

The only other thing that he wants that made me uncomfortable was he said Bear should'nt be sleeping in my room with me...I mean that's part of the reason I wanted a dog (companionship-even at night) so it's kind of a hard pill to swallow but he says that will help provide boundaries in leadership...any thoughts?


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Dante has slept by my bed (now most of the time IN it!), first in a crate and now free, since he came home. He has no leadership issues with me. We got him for protection and security with all the access point into our house the only way to accomplish this would be for him to be in the room with me. I don't see where the dog sleeps as a big deal, unless there are issues with groweling at owners over spots, etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

yes, this, if you are having a problem with the dog not accepting you as the leader, then you can give it a shot. You can ask him if that is something he suggests for everyone, or if that is just for dogs who are having issues. If he suggests it for everyone, then well, lots of us have our dogs in our room and even in our beds without any issues.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sir Bear said:


> I empathize with those that likened positive only to someone convincing you it's ok not to train your dog, it's frustrating.


That's not typical though, at least not in 26 years of training my dogs and taking dozens of classes, all of which do not allow corrective collars of any kind. That's just bad training, plain and simple. Or rather no training at all. 

As Wildo pointed out, Susan Garrett is a perfect example of how it is possible to have very well behaved and trained dogs using solely positive reinforcement techniques. She is obviously a very skilled and experienced trainer, and most people aren't anywhere near close to that level though. Her dogs compete at the highest levels of agility. Silvia Trkman is another example of highly trained dogs using only clicker training. 

I think the attention/focus/leadership stuff is especially good with motivational, reward based methods, because those require that your dog being engaged with you. I'm not anti-correction though, and I've never claimed to be.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Sounds like you're on both ends of the spectrum. The one class is too easy and fluffy, but the new class may be a bit much for where you are.

Perfect heel at six months? Holy moly. I've been workin on that dang heel for what seems like forever, and at just over a year, I can't call it perfect still!

Please do go watch the class before joining. I wish I had done that. Bailey was only four months and they strapped a prong on him right off the bat and expected me to correct properly even though I'd never used a prong nor had a clue what a correction was. A really bad experience for both of us. (No, we didn't go back. Expensive lesson!)

I don't debate that either pure positive or pure compulsion may get the results you want, but I sure prefer a mix. I want to use treats or toys sometimes. I want to be allowed to do a pop if needed. I want all the input, all the options AS viable options.

No matter what you do, your dog won't stop loving you.  More importantly, you have to believe in what you're doing. Go check out that class. 



selzer said:


> yes, this, if you are having a problem with the dog not accepting you as the leader, then you can give it a shot. *You can ask him if that is something he suggests for everyone, or if that is just for dogs who are having issues. If he suggests it for everyone, then well, lots of us have our dogs in our room and even in our beds without any issues*.


Great point. All mine have slept with me. Never had a problem. If he's seeing something specific to you to give this advice, I'd be more inclined to listen to it. If as selzer says, it is just his across the board advice for everyone, I would probably take it with a grain of salt.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would go and watch a training session(I'm betting you won't like something that you see) and I would look into other trainers as someone mentioned, I think someone posted a list of trainers in your area too. My GSD is 9 months and I went with treats and praise training. Do I use corrections? I don't think so(I had to actually think about this), I use things like leave it, watch me. Once they know the commands I use the commands for lots of stuff. The biggest thing is watching and learning about your dog, if you stay ahead and catch them before they are about to do something wrong, then positive training works. For example..if I see my dog getting ready to chase one of the cats, I don't wait until she does, I say leave it before she does and this works for us(she has realized that everytime she does this I say leave it, so the unwanted behavior stops when they make that connection). Of course if your not watching them and they do something the obvious thing would be to say no or correct them. So timing plays a big role in training and the kind of training that is used. I have put a prong on my dog once, it was required at a GSD club I checked out. Most of the GSD's there were dog aggressive, muzzled, and not well balanced IMO. When the trainer seen my dog, she told me to go to the other side of the room so that my dog wouldn't be subjected to the other dogs....in my mind I was praying(I think my dog was praying to) that the owners of the dogs had control over them


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Elaine said:


> You will never have a reliably well trained dog with positive only training. It just won't happen.


I don't agree with this at all. I have two dogs that have been trained using positive training and they are very well behaved and trained. Neither of the dogs need a prong collar to walk nicely on a leash, both were trained on a flat collar. If a dog is trained in a positive manner and the dog is truly trained there is no need for corrections. If corrections are needed, then some more training needs to be done. I don't really care how a person trains their own dogs(unless its physically hurting the dogs). Its okay to tell the dog no and its okay to use a prong if that is what someone feels comfortable with, but to say that is the only way to get a well trained dog is wrong and based on opinion only.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Sir Bear said:


> Thank you all for the wonderful and detailed responses! Most of the issues I'm having with Bear involve loose leash walking and leadership issues on my part (i.e. providing consistent expectations) I think Bear and myself are kind of frustrated with each other - so it isn't so much an issue of teaching him to sit/stay/etc, it's attention/focus/leadership. I empathize with those that likened positive only to someone convincing you it's ok not to train your dog, it's frustrating. I do think it can provide results, I just think Bear needs more than that.
> 
> I really liked the new trainer, he made a point to emphasize praise, raising his drive and keeping him engaged. He said he uses treats, clickers, prongs, etc so he doesn't seem hyper negative by any means, he's just not afraid of training tools. I suppose prongs just freak me out but I'm opening up to it. This guy had bear more excited about a tug toy in 5 minutes than I've ever been able to accomplish...which was nice to see. I should also specify he didn't mean a full heal during walks, he meant loose leash next to me (I testament to my lack of training terms)
> 
> The only other thing that he wants that made me uncomfortable was he said Bear should'nt be sleeping in my room with me...I mean that's part of the reason I wanted a dog (companionship-even at night) so it's kind of a hard pill to swallow but he says that will help provide boundaries in leadership...any thoughts?


This sounds like what I would want in a trainer. Good luck!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That trainer definitely sounds worth checking out. A little isolation could be what he is going for, I would ask him why. My dogs don't sleep in my bedroom though but I know a lot do.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sir Bear said:


> The only other thing that he wants that made me uncomfortable was *he said Bear should'nt be sleeping in my room with me*...I mean that's part of the reason I wanted a dog (companionship-even at night) so it's kind of a hard pill to swallow but he says that will help provide boundaries in leadership...any thoughts?


I totally disagree. If you want Bear to sleep in your bedroom with you, then do it. Even if you really like and respect this trainer that doesn't mean that have no choice but to accept every single thing he says, even if you're not comfortable with it. This is YOUR dog, and there's no evidence that having dogs sleep elsewhere has any affect on leadership, so do what YOU want to do. That is his opinion, nothing more.


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## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

Just wanted to update everyone...I did decide to go with the new trainer and he has been fantastic. Bear and I are both much happier, I feel that he knows I'm the leader now and it has caused a total 180 in his behavior. We still use treats and motivational methods to teach him what I want, but once he knows that the corrections (which don't even need to be used often) keep him in check. We can exercise more since he can walk properly now; and I'm basically looking forward to adolescence more than puppyhood because we have a much better relationship now. My last trainer seems like a joke now...I definitely think positive only can work, but I really think certain dogs need more then that and Bear is one of them.

And while he still sleeps in my room, I do think I'm going to start transitioning him out with baby gates...I really do trust this trainers opinion now and I think it may even further help since Bear has such a strong personality: he just needs extremely clear boundaries. Thanks again for all the advice!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sir bear said:


> just wanted to update everyone...i did decide to go with the new trainer and he has been fantastic. Bear and i are both much happier, i feel that he knows i'm the leader now and it has caused a total 180 in his behavior. We still use treats and motivational methods to teach him what i want, but once he knows that the corrections (which don't even need to be used often) keep him in check. We can exercise more since he can walk properly now; and i'm basically looking forward to adolescence more than puppyhood because we have a much better relationship now. My last trainer seems like a joke now...*i definitely think positive only can work, but i really think certain dogs need more then that and bear is one of them.*
> 
> and while he still sleeps in my room, i do think i'm going to start transitioning him out with baby gates...i really do trust this trainers opinion now and i think it may even further help since bear has such a strong personality: He just needs extremely clear boundaries. Thanks again for all the advice!


*absolutely!*


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