# 5 month old agressive puppy. Might return to breeder. Please help



## Cr7 (Jul 5, 2015)

Hello everyone, I have a 5 month old working line pup I got from a breeder. Every time he gets near any dog he begins lunging and barking like he wants to attack the other dog. He is generally friendly around people but there are times something triggers him and he does the same towards them. Since he was 2 months old I would try and take him to places like petsmart and Home Depot to get him socialized but found it hard to do since people were already scared of getting near him. Now I can't take him out to the park without people being scared that my dod will bite them or their children since he is lunging and barking aggressively towards them. I figured I must be doing something wrong in the way I was handling him so I went to the breeder to see if she could take a look at him and see what the problem was. When I took him to the breeder she said that he was an agressive dog and that he was going to get worse to the point that she said it is a 100% guarantee that my dog is going to bite someone in the future, and that is the last thing I want. She said that my dog required an experienced handler and she offered me to give her the puppy back so that she can send him back to Germany where he would be trained in police work and be used as a stud dog and I would receive a refund for the pup. My main question is do any of you have any experience with something similar to this? Would any type of training fix this type of agression? What do you recommend? I would hate to get rid of my pup but if it's the right thing to do then I must make that tough decision.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you talked to a trainer about this? What is this dog's pedigree?


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I am sorry for you but I would take the breeder's offer for a refund. Your pup seems to be very high drive and suited more to being a police dog than a family pet. I know a lady whose gsd pup at 5 months started to bark, growl, and lunge at children. They had a fenced-in backyard and were concerned the dog would jump over the fence when children went by. They gave the pup away to a policeman who trained him to be a police dog. He did very well.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You are over your head with a 5 month old puppy, and the breeder has evaluated the puppy and offered a refund. Take it. If the puppy is not the right energy, drive, and temperament for you, than he will not be comfortable in your care, and you will not be comfortable with him around people/dogs, and it won't get any easier to make such a decision months from now.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Cr7 said:


> Hello everyone, I have a 5 month old working line pup I got from a breeder. Every time he gets near any dog he begins lunging and barking like he wants to attack the other dog. He is generally friendly around people but there are times something triggers him and he does the same towards them. Since he was 2 months old I would try and take him to places like petsmart and Home Depot to get him socialized but found it hard to do since people were already scared of getting near him. Now I can't take him out to the park without people being scared that my dod will bite them or their children since he is lunging and barking aggressively towards them. I figured I must be doing something wrong in the way I was handling him so I went to the breeder to see if she could take a look at him and see what the problem was. When I took him to the breeder she said that he was an agressive dog and that he was going to get worse to the point that she said it is a 100% guarantee that my dog is going to bite someone in the future, and that is the last thing I want. She said that my dog required an experienced handler and she offered me to give her the puppy back so that she can send him back to Germany where he would be trained in police work and be used as a stud dog and I would receive a refund for the pup. My main question is do any of you have any experience with something similar to this? Would any type of training fix this type of aggression? What do you recommend? I would hate to get rid of my pup but if it's the right thing to do then I must make that tough decision.


Hmmm well if your expectations were for a dog that you could have everyone and their mother make a fuss over and take over to friends and family houses and play and have a good time with their dogs and not give it a second thought. Then yeah return him ..hje's not the right dog for you.

I won't count the Dog Park as a negative because "not" going in there is a good idea in any case. "Not" going to "Dog Parks" is what many of us do and advise as do many "Pro's."

Petsmart and Home Depot can be high-stress environments for "some" dogs and he's learned, that by acting like a "fool" he can get people to back off! So every time you dragged him in there he got better at it.

So if your not willing to change your expectations to work with what you have, then yeah send him back get a refund and try again.

But to answer your question yes it can be fixed. If your willing to change your approach and expectations. Dog Park thing is in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Changing your approach would be "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog, also in there." And Crate training and Place, and no free roaming in the home, etc. I can go on but it's up to you.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> You are over your head with a 5 month old puppy, and the breeder has evaluated the puppy and offered a refund. Take it. If the puppy is not the right energy, drive, and temperament for you, than he will not be comfortable in your care, and you will not be comfortable with him around people/dogs, and it won't get any easier to make such a decision months from now.


 I don't disagree.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Sounds something like my 6 year old Fritz. He was lunging,hackling and barking at dogs and people since he came home at 8 weeks old. But,he also had submissive urination issues and would cower when in the back of my truck that had a cap on it,or if you approached him while he was lying down. Fear aggressive and very excitable. He eventually bit,not out of fear but in an overly stimulated situation that I did not control. Cannot be fixed,temperament can't be fixed or changed,only managed and controlled. We had 2 options with Fritz,keep and control or euthanize. The breeder recommended euthanization. We went with keep and control and training. The submissive urination and extreme fear has modified. He still will not let strange dogs near him without attacking and he loses his mind when people come near the house or yard. But we are vigilant. It's quite limiting and draining at times. If I were you I'd take the breeder's offer and get a proper pet. Both of you will be better off.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wonder why the breeder allowed you to purchase this puppy and label him 'aggressive'? She should have known the pup's temperament. I don't understand that if she is the breeder that she would 'send the puppy *back* to Germany' (this implies that he came from Germany) or is she a broker? Are you sure she is going to do that? I would check this out by calling for references. In the meantime hire a good GSD trainer and see what you can do in the meantime. The whole thing is probably a combination of temperament and inexperience with the breed's training. Please do not take this as an offense; we all started out once. How experienced are you in working with dogs?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> I wonder why the breeder allowed you to purchase this puppy and label him 'aggressive'? She should have known the pup's temperament. I don't understand that if she is the breeder that she would 'send the puppy *back* to Germany' (this implies that he came from Germany) or is she a broker? Are you sure she is going to do that? I would check this out by calling for references. In the meantime hire a good GSD trainer and see what you can do in the meantime. The whole thing is probably a combination of temperament and inexperience with the breed's training. Please do not take this as an offense; we all started out once. How experienced are you in working with dogs?



I'm kind of here too. It might be as simple as needing to tell the puppy, No, you don't get to behave like an ass. I think you should go to a trainer. You're previous posts say you wanted a "personal protection" dog. Well, it seems what you are wanting now is the opposite end of the spectrum.

I have a feeling this puppy is above your skill set but a second opinion with a trainer versed in our breed is never a bad idea.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Take the breeders suggestion - give him back, get your refund and try again.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Yes, take the puppy back and look for a breeder with calmer dogs. You can train him but it's not easy and you don't have the experience for it. You are attached but physically can you handle a dog like that if it continues? Do you want to? 

I also have a puppy a little younger than yours who is showing signs of reactivity, but I know how to handle it and I'm working on it. Just today he started barking at people on a walk, and I got him distracted, moving and out of there, calmly and it stopped. We were able to continue our walk without incident. I've had a lot of dog experience and I also work with a very good private trainer when I need one. Do you have a trainer like that who understands aggression?


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> She said that my dog required an experienced handler and she offered me to give her the puppy back so that she can send him back to Germany where he would be trained in police work and be used as a stud dog and I would receive a refund for the pup.


Lol, I gotta believe you misunderstood something here. If this had even a remote possibility of being true, you'd have to be nuts to give him back. You should get together with a trainer who can help you teach him to behave before you make any decision.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Steve, that raised huge red flags for me, too. 

It's always funny to me when people think a dog going off at everything would make a good police dog. Usually not, with exceptions. A good prison guard dog, or border patrol dog, maybe. But there's a lot more to a police dog that lunging and barking (or there should be). 

First, I'd go to another GSD experienced trainer for an evaluation, and some training.

But if you just want to unload your problem, and the breeder will take him back, go for it. Just be aware, that story the breeder fed you has very little chance of being true (it could be, but likely not). And more than likely the pup will either be resold or euthanized. 

If you do decide to return the pup, check her story thoroughly, as in calling wherever the pup is supposed to go in Germany, with a translator if need be, to make sure they are expecting him and ready to train him as a police dog and stud.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

On second thought, if the OP did go with this breeder, the story may be true. The description of this dog from an earlier breeding, sounds familiar to what the OP is describing in his dog.

For Sale - Kennel Vom Schweizerhof


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> On second thought, if the OP did go with this breeder, the story may be true. The description of this dog from an earlier breeding, sounds familiar to what the OP is describing in his dog.
> 
> For Sale - Kennel Vom Schweizerhof


That dog sounds like she would be too much for most buyers.


----------



## Cr7 (Jul 5, 2015)

@jax08 The father is V-Und Vom Mutzbach and mother Bella Vom Schweizerhof. 
I had a regular dog trainer come in yesterday and evaluate him at home. He said that he is not an aggressive dog but that him being a working dog is going to have a natural protective instinct that will increase as time goes on but can be somewhat reduced with a lot of socialization. I am going to take my dog to another trainer who has had experience with working line gsds to be evaluated.


----------



## Cr7 (Jul 5, 2015)

@wolfy dog This is my first dog so I have no experience handling dogs before. I think it may be like you say about the combination of the dogs natural temperament and lack of experience that may be the result of this. Im currently looking for a good trainer near the Miami area.


----------



## Cr7 (Jul 5, 2015)

@wolfy dog She's a breeder. She finds stud from Germany that she wants to use and then takes her female to Germany.


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I was new to GermanShepherds, also, two years ago although I had a lot of dog experience. I got more dog than I expected. It helped to go to a Schutzhund club to see other dogs and see "German Shepherd culture." I watched other people handle my dog and learned. Before that, I worked with two other behaviorists and learned to read my dog better.

It sounds like you have too much dog. The choice is returning him or training him. I support whatever you decide and don't feel guilty if you give him back. If you decide to keep him, start muzzle training him now. (See Leerburg website for info.) It has made a difference for me to have better control in situations, like at the vet, where my GSD did not appreciate what the vet was doing to him.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I could have chosen my words better Cr7, but my point was no one on either continent can tell you a 5mo old is going to be a stud dog in Germany. Could she look at him and be telling you "Wow, this is a great puppy and I'll be glad to take him back" Yeah, that would make sense.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cr7 said:


> @jax08 The father is V-Und Vom Mutzbach and mother Bella Vom Schweizerhof.
> I had a regular dog trainer come in yesterday and evaluate him at home. He said that he is not an aggressive dog but that him being a working dog is going to have a natural protective instinct that will increase as time goes on but can be somewhat reduced with a lot of socialization. I am going to take my dog to another trainer who has had experience with working line gsds to be evaluated.



Good Choice  And IPO club would be a good avenue for you.

Here is the pedigree for those interested
Litter from UND vom Mutzbach and Bella Vom Schweizerhof


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Cr7 said:


> @jax08 The father is V-Und Vom Mutzbach and mother Bella Vom Schweizerhof.
> I had a regular dog trainer come in yesterday and evaluate him at home. He said that he is not an aggressive dog but that him being a working dog is going to have a natural protective instinct that will increase as time goes on but can be somewhat reduced with a lot of socialization. I am going to take my dog to another trainer who has had experience with working line gsds to be evaluated.


Aww tread carefully here. There is a difference between "socialization" and "exposure."

I only became aware of the "difference" recently in an offline discussion. 

I have also done "exposure" my dogs got to "see" people but they did not necessary "need" to interact with them! As it happened my bullies all luv'd people so when asked my answer was always "Please Do" Worked out fine! 

Then along comes "Rocky" OS WL GSD and he clearly had no luv for anyone outside his "pack!" Can you say "Bubble Dog" (a dog that needs to be "muzzled" to be safe in public.) So that's what we did and I respected "this" dogs preference "not" to interact with people. No tricking people into his face with the use of treats. And if someone approached, I would say step in front of "Rocky" and say "NO." And politely explain the situation.

I showed him what I wanted. After a bit (weeks or months) not years. Rocky got it, Daddy keeps people out of his face! We no longer needed the muzzle in public. And finally, one day when a stranger was pretty persistent to interact with us. (I crossed the street to avoid and he crossed back to intercept!)

We met, I did what I do (Rocky behind, me in front) and he asked if he could pet "Rocky?" I turned and looked at "Rocky" and he was like "same old same old, nothing new here" I stepped aside and said "Yes." Rocky accepted a pat on the head without issue. He said nice dog ... (my job was done! 

The other change was at home with company, he was not a fan! This time, it was "The Place Command" he goes to "Place" and I allowed no one to interact with him. No negotiating with him the comings and goings of guest into the home. He goes to "Place" I keep company, out of his face and that's 
the end of it, works out fine. 

If your not willing to do something like "this" ?? And you wanted a dog that luv'd everyone and you could take to family gatherings and have him freely interact with family, kids and other people's dogs?? (My SIL has two such GSD's, I was stunned!)

Then this may not be the dog for you?? So give that some "serious" consideration.

But as to what I did looks like ... see "Who Pets ..." in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And "The Place Command" is here:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And if you have no luck with the club thing and need "references" to find "competent qualified help" local to you see here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

And a tip to help weed out your choices, if you seek help on your own, just ask whoever you find if they all use all Four Quadrants of Classical Operant Conditioning. (Tell a dog "NO" and teach them to make "good choices.")

If they say "anything" other than "yes" *we use all four quadrants of COC*. Thank them for their time and say there's the door! 

These guys can help you find "competent help local to you.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Aww tread carefully here. There is a difference between "socialization" and "exposure."
> 
> I only became aware of the "difference" recently in an offline discussion.
> 
> ...


IMO this is absolutely spot on. :thumbup: I took on a rescue pup that didn't like people. I thought no problem. Older home, no kids.... it will be fine. Turns out it wasn't. Dog didn't like husband (big problem), but an even bigger problem was even though I thought I was anti-social turns out I'm not as anti-social as I thought. My kids come home, they bring boy friends and friends and family comes and stays when they are in town. The poor dog could not relax. He was afraid of his own shadow and my home made the demons in his head worse. I tried trainers, I tried medication, finally my husband said enough. I was heartbroken. Still am, but I made the right decision for the dog. The rescue found a retired person who really doesn't interact with people. Who hikes and spends his days with the dog. The dog is doing fantastic and my head tells me I made the right decision for the dog, even though my heart still hurts. 

So think long and hard. Is this the right dog for you? If not its better to give him a chance somewhere else.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> IMO this is absolutely spot on. :thumbup: I took on a rescue pup that didn't like people. I thought no problem. Older home, no kids.... it will be fine. Turns out it wasn't. Dog didn't like husband (big problem), but an even bigger problem was even though I thought I was anti-social turns out I'm not as anti-social as I thought. My kids come home, they bring boy friends and friends and family comes and stays when they are in town. The poor dog could not relax. He was afraid of his own shadow and my home made the demons in his head worse. I tried trainers, I tried medication, finally my husband said enough. I was heartbroken. Still am, but I made the right decision for the dog. The rescue found a retired person who really doesn't interact with people. Who hikes and spends his days with the dog. The dog is doing fantastic and my head tells me I made the right decision for the dog, even though my heart still hurts.
> 
> So think long and hard. Is this the right dog for you? If not its better to give him a chance somewhere else.


Hey thanks for pointing out uh ...me to me! 

I can't imagine what it's like to have to give up on a dog but clearly you made the right call for him and you. Sometimes we do need a second set of eyes to help us know when it's time to say enough, "I'm" not the right fit and the dog needs to move on "before" someone gets hurt!

By and large owners who fail to realize that, also insist on treating a dog not like who or what they are but as they "believe" they should be!

Most of the "fails" are by folks that have a dog that has "made it fairly clear" that he is not comfortable with people getting in his face! 

But "some" will persist in doing just that and when it does not get better, they hire some "Gentle Paws" trainer that tells them "use a treat." "Roofus" then takes the treat and bites the crap out of them anyway because a dog can do both. And the dog still wants people out of his face so perhaps "this" will get my point across and "Boom" there it is!

By and large I call the refusal to "adapt" to the dog they have, the "Lab" mindset and that does not work with "H/A" "dogs." Franky I think Cesar Millan contributes to that greatly but another thread perhaps??

Anyway I Know it still hurts but you did good by that dog! :hug:


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

That's a much different evaluation than the first one. You can work with this dog but find a very good trainer.


----------

