# Nerves and thresholds. Protection training and aggression



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

First of all, from the other thread, is it true that for a dog to bite he has to have a low threshold and I think that means be a nerve bag?

To me this doesn't sound right. But I don't have experience, all I know is what I read and no one is saying that their ipo dogs are nerve bags. 

So which is it?

Also, I gathered from things I read and heard that dogs with bite training are a little more dangerous (bad choice of words but you get the idea). 

Leerburg, for example, says somewhere on his website that if your dog has at least a tiny bit of protection training then it's your responsibility to make sure he's not around kids or something like that. Like to say that once the dog is protection trained he needs more management than a dog that hasn't been. 

So is this true? I believed that the dogs stay the same, that they only bite when told but now I'm not sure. 

Can someone be honest about this? I sometimes get the impression that people don't tell the entire truth about the level of control they have over their dogs. If I'm wrong then I apologize in advance


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't think low threshold=nerve bag.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My male has a fairly high threshold, he thinks before he acts or reacts in most all situations. When it comes to protection, though, his threshold is not as high. He comes onto the field barking and ready.
I see dogs with lower thresholds and they are far from being a nerve bag! I also see lower threshold dogs that would be considered timid and not really confident, but age and good training will bring more confidence.

If the dog has balance and knows the rules(control), they are not a liability(as long as the handler is setting the dog up for success). Control comes with maturity, not many young dogs are versed in such self control, they need to rely on their handler for the discernment to act appropriately.

My females are more reactive, lower threshold, yet there is no way they'd ever be able to do IPO, they don't have 'it'. And honestly, without management they are a liability...I can't/won't have them around children whatsoever. They want to attack kids because they've never been around the smaller ones. They're fine with around the ten and above age though. 

I'd rather see a dog that will engage without having alot of help to be turned on...the really high threshold dogs are a challenge to work.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

lalachka said:


> First of all, from the other thread, is it true that for a dog to bite he has to have a low threshold and I think that means be a nerve bag?
> 
> To me this doesn't sound right. But I don't have experience, all I know is what I read and no one is saying that their ipo dogs are nerve bags.
> 
> ...


This is something you will only learn clearly when actually in the field getting experience through training, watching, experiencing. Only reading posts will not provide true understanding. That being said, both my dogs have put helpers in ER requiring surgery. Yet both are extremely reliable around children and in other social/non-threat environments.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Here is a favorite article about nerves, temperament, thresholds, and bite-work. A bit long, but well worth the read, and in my opinion, should be required reading for all GSD owners, not to mention breeders!

Elements of Temperament - Scratch My Butt

When I set out to get a GSD for SchH/IPO, I did NOT want a nerve bag, or a reactive low-threshold dog. I wanted a solid, high-threshold dog, friendly and outgoing with people, safe with kids and cats, good out in public, versatile in different activities, a joy to own and train, but also kick-butt serious in the protection field. My choice and preference came from being involved in Schutzhund with my rescue mixed-breed, and training and working with a variety of different GSDs in my SchH club. Some dogs were low-threshold and quick to react and bite, some were serious in the fight, but bidabble and sane and solid, some where all prey-drive with not a serious bone in their body, some were nicely balanced, being successful in trials, and great, all-around pets. 

I love to talk about Gryff and people may be getting bored of hearing about him, but he is exactly what I wanted. At club, in seminars, police-dog trainers, world-level competitors love working him - he kicks butt! But he is one of the nicest, most even-tempered, well-rounded dogs that I can take anywhere. High threshold, safe in public, from weirdos in town pretending that they are superheros and air-lazering him as we come around a corner (I just laughed, Gryff cued off my reaction and ignored the person), or little kids running up behind him to pet him (he loves it!). He comes to work with me on most days, has to stay in the car, but breaks and lunch time, we hang out with his work buddies. 

Vet is not a problem - shots, examinations, micro-chip implant, he puts up with it with no complaint. 

Many others on this forum have bite-trained dog with similar good temperaments and balance as Gryff - in my opinion, this is more the norm than the exception when looking at breeders who understand the true essence of a GSD.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> This is something you will only learn clearly when actually in the field getting experience through training, watching, experiencing. Only reading posts will not provide true understanding. That being said, both my dogs have put helpers in ER requiring surgery. Yet both are extremely reliable around children and in other social/non-threat environments.



I'm going to reply to everything a little later but packen, find me a club within 60 or so miles from NYC that answers emails or picks up the phone. I will be forever grateful. Have been trying for a while

Even 90 miles would do


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Castlemaid that is what I want in a GSD!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lalachka said:


> I'm going to reply to everything a little later but packen, find me a club within 60 or so miles from NYC that answers emails or picks up the phone. I will be forever grateful. Have been trying for a while
> 
> Even 90 miles would do


Have you tried this one? If you're in queens, you shouldn't be too far from this club. 

New York Schutzhund & Police Dog Club | Schutzhund / IPO Club in Long Island New York


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lol yeap this is my latest try. I got a prewritten email back saying it's 1k a year to join. My friend said too expensive for their level (like that they don't have any top competitors and whatever else) but to check it out. I'd probably pay anyway. But they haven't replied since. 4 emails and 6 phone calls. 

I will keep trying lol


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

1K a yr broken down to training 2x's per week isn't all that bad, IMO. Especially for a newb that will need one on one in all phases. What would you spend on classes with a local obedience type club in the area?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid, your dog sounds amazing. That's what I thought it should be. An all around balanced dog. 
There's so much misinformation floating out there. 

And onyx, thank you for your reply)))) I guess I'm wrong on both points. 

I want to find a club!!!!!!!!!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> 1K a yr broken down to training 2x's per week isn't all that bad, IMO. Especially for a newb that will need one on one in all phases. What would you spend on classes with a local obedience type club in the area?



I'd def pay it, she just said it as a comment but told me to check it out. 

I wouldn't go twice a week. I probably wouldn't even go every week. But still, i'd pay it if only they replied and let me come check it out. Evaluate my dog.

ETA I don't do classes, I do one on one and I spent close to 1k on training this year. Maybe a little over.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I sincerely hope what I write makes sense...

For a dog To bite does not mean low threshold. And a dog with a low threshold is not necessarily a nerve bag. 

Threshold to me is what we used to call sharpness. Or willingness to react to a true threat. It was once explained to me like this:

A high threshold/non sharp dog is like a dude in a bar with his girlfriend. Another dude comes in, sidles up to GF, buys her a drink then shoves BF(dog) out if the way. Dog reacts to threat, punches the interloper in the face. 

A low threshold/sharp dog is the same dude in a bar, but the second the interloper walks towards his GF he punches him in the face. 

A nerve bag, jumps up and punches every dude entering the bar while screaming. "She's MY girlfriend stay away from her!!!!everyone stay away!!!!" 

It's a difference between appreciating an actual threat and responding appropriately and just reacting to non issues in the environment. A low threshold dog is quicker to respond to an actual threat, but it should be an actual threat. A nerve bag sees the world as threat and is constantly reacting. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lalachka said:


> I'd def pay it, she just said it as a comment but told me to check it out.
> 
> I wouldn't go twice a week. I probably wouldn't even go every week. But still, i'd pay it if only they replied and let me come check it out. Evaluate my dog.
> 
> ETA I don't do classes, I do one on one and I spent close to 1k on training this year. Maybe a little over.


Most clubs want dedication....not going regularly won't help the dog succeed for trialing or titling. Clubs also want members to be supportive with each other, that comes with regular attendance. 
Pay to trains are a bit different, show up, work your dog, helper hopefully will be fair in the training and that there will be progress achieved.
My club trains one day per week and that isn't enough for me so I pay to train elsewhere during the week too, though I stay on the same consistent program whereever I go.

That said, we are still only at an IPO1 and my dog is 5 yrs old. lol... I hate trialing, love to train.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gsdsar said:


> I sincerely hope what I write makes sense...
> 
> For a dog To bite does not mean low threshold. And a dog with a low threshold is not necessarily a nerve bag.
> 
> ...


Perfect analogy!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I sincerely hope what I write makes sense...
> 
> For a dog To bite does not mean low threshold. And a dog with a low threshold is not necessarily a nerve bag.
> 
> ...



This is an amazing way to explain thresholds)))))))

Thank you


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

lalachka said:


> I'm going to reply to everything a little later but packen, find me a club within 60 or so miles from NYC that answers emails or picks up the phone. I will be forever grateful. Have been trying for a while
> 
> Even 90 miles would do


You can try contacting John Soares and check out what he recommends.
NY Professional Dog Training | NJ Certified Dog Trainer | 973.715.0212


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Most clubs want dedication....not going regularly won't help the dog succeed for trialing or titling. Clubs also want members to be supportive with each other, that comes with regular attendance.
> 
> Pay to trains are a bit different, show up, work your dog, helper hopefully will be fair in the training and that there will be progress achieved.
> 
> ...



Their schedule is a little tough. Thursday is out of the question so that leaves Sunday. I'd do my best to make every Sunday but things happen. 

Or, if they replied and I went there and got really into it then maybe i'd find a way to make it every session.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> You can try contacting John Soares and check out what he recommends.
> 
> NY Professional Dog Training | NJ Certified Dog Trainer | 973.715.0212



Lol small world. I've been to him already. But you're right, I can ask him. I haven't thought of that.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

It's addictive.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> It's addictive.



I'll be glad to get addicted then. I'm going to call the club and John. Maybe I will get lucky this time around.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Plus it will teach you so much about how to handle your dog better.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Plus it will teach you so much about how to handle your dog better.



Exactly!!! And there will be so many people that will see him and show me what I'm doing wrong. Trust me, I know this is a good option. It just seems like there aren't too many good trainers and clubs in NYC or I don't know how to look


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

If your a newbie like me having a trainer who can identify your dogs drives, nerves etc really helps. I found I don't have a dog with the best nerves, they are not the worst but could be better, medium drive and a high threshold. She shown me how to work with him and because of his threshold I can take him lots of places with no reaction as long as I don't push his threshold limits. Which takes a lot.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thresholds are how quickly a dog reacts to stimuli. They tend to increase with age. A dog can have a high threshold for defense or aggression (not the same thing) yet a very low threshold for prey. Or they can be very quick to go into defense or aggression (low threshold) and be very difficult to elicit prey (high threshold). This is separate from nerves though many nervy dogs are low threshold and react quickly to what scares them. Not all. Having high thresholds in all areas can make a dog appear to be very solid almost dull until the right circumstances shows the dog's true nature, especially if the dog has never been truly pushed or faced real challenges in life.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Thresholds are how quickly a dog reacts to stimuli. They tend to increase with age. A dog can have a high threshold for defense or aggression (not the same thing) yet a very low threshold for prey. Or they can be very quick to go into defense or aggression (low threshold) and be very difficult to elicit prey (high threshold). This is separate from nerves though many nervy dogs are low threshold and react quickly to what scares them. Not all. Having high thresholds in all areas can make a dog appear to be very solid almost dull until the right circumstances shows the dog's true nature, especially if the dog has never been truly pushed or faced real challenges in life.



So how would you define nerves? If threshold is how quickly a dog reacts then nerves would be how much is takes to make him react or...?

Also, can you explain the diff between high threshold for defense and high threshold for aggression.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> Here is a favorite article about nerves, temperament, thresholds, and bite-work. A bit long, but well worth the read, and in my opinion, should be required reading for all GSD owners, not to mention breeders!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Omg thank you for this article!!!! I'm not done yet but enjoying it already and getting comfy to enjoy the rest)))))


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