# Question about Citric Acid and pre-soaking kibble



## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

I know that they say that you shouldn't pre-soak dry foods containing Citric Acid due to the risk of bloat. My question is if you add a little water to make a gravy, but then feed immediately (don't allow the kibble to soak) is that a risk also? I add a little canned tripe to my dog's food, and add about 1/8 cup of water to mix the tripe in and make a tripe gravy...and then immediately feed. Is that considered pre-soaking? Am I putting my dog at risk??


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

If there is one thing that is a mixed bag of advice, it is about bloat. and what causes it Whether it is ingredients or whether to raise or lower the bowl.

What brand do you use? Making gravy with the tripe and adding it to the kibble I think is not the same as soaking. Otherwise you could not let your dog drink before or after a meal and most do But that is my opinion only.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I add some warm water to my dogs dinner, I've done this for about 20yrs. I personally never had a problem. Breakfast is a smaller portion so I give it to them dry.
When I was little I remember my grandmother soaking Alpo kibble for the dogs. All of her dogs lived very long lives (too long for some), how they survived and were healthy on Alpo I'll never know.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

VegasResident said:


> If there is one thing that is a mixed bag of advice, it is about bloat. and what causes it Whether it is ingredients or whether to raise or lower the bowl.
> 
> What brand do you use? Making gravy with the tripe and adding it to the kibble I think is not the same as soaking. Otherwise you could not let your dog drink before or after a meal and most do But that is my opinion only.


 
Yes, bloat, and all of the unknowns about it, scares the crap out of me!

I use Life's Abundance dog food. It is an AMAZING food, and Cheyenne is doing really well on it! It is the first food that she has eaten as soon as I put the bowl down, and I've been through several brands before this (Blue Buffalo, Nature's Variety, Fromm, Solid Gold, etc)! The ONLY thing that I don't like is that it has Citric Acid. Really wish they didn't add that! 

But you are correct, I would think that the amount of water that I add is probably less than what she drinks either before or after. And since she eats it the second I put it down, it really never gets a chance to absorb the water.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

kiya said:


> I add some warm water to my dogs dinner, I've done this for about 20yrs. I personally never had a problem. Breakfast is a smaller portion so I give it to them dry.
> When I was little I remember my grandmother soaking Alpo kibble for the dogs. All of her dogs lived very long lives (too long for some), how they survived and were healthy on Alpo I'll never know.


Does your food contain Citric Acid?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

jprice103 said:


> The ONLY thing that I don't like is that it has Citric Acid. Really wish they didn't add that!


You should bring this up to Amy tonight. I know she said something specifically about bloat and the food last week but I can't remember what it was.


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

jprice103 said:


> Yes, bloat, and all of the unknowns about it, scares the crap out of me!
> 
> I use Life's Abundance dog food. It is an AMAZING food, and Cheyenne is doing really well on it! It is the first food that she has eaten as soon as I put the bowl down, and I've been through several brands before this (Blue Buffalo, Nature's Variety, Fromm, Solid Gold, etc)! The ONLY thing that I don't like is that it has Citric Acid. Really wish they didn't add that!
> 
> But you are correct, I would think that the amount of water that I add is probably less than what she drinks either before or after. And since she eats it the second I put it down, it really never gets a chance to absorb the water.


Stupid question, but I do not see citric acid in the Life Abundance premium


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

kiya said:


> I add some warm water to my dogs dinner, I've done this for about 20yrs. I personally never had a problem. Breakfast is a smaller portion so I give it to them dry.
> When I was little I remember my grandmother soaking Alpo kibble for the dogs. All of her dogs lived very long lives (too long for some), how they survived and were healthy on Alpo I'll never know.


My GSD growing up was on the same, Alpo or whatever the grocery brand was, plus pancakes on Sundays. The only thing my dad added was bone meal. She lived to 13


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

VegasResident said:


> Stupid question, but I do not see citric acid in the Life Abundance premium


I didn't think it had it either, but it is in the Vitamins section:

*Vitamins: *Ascorbic Acid, vitamin E Supplement, Inositol, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, *Citric Acid*, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid. 

This is right from the website.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> You should bring this up to Amy tonight. I know she said something specifically about bloat and the food last week but I can't remember what it was.


Will do. I'd like to hear what she has to say. See you tonight!


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

jprice103 said:


> I didn't think it had it either, but it is in the Vitamins section:
> 
> *Vitamins: *Ascorbic Acid, vitamin E Supplement, Inositol, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, *Citric Acid*, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid.
> 
> This is right from the website.


Ahhh, the evil hidden list!:wild:


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

All in all, I am NOT changing food. She is just doing too well on it and I really like the company behind it. And the added benefit that I finally found a food that she loves and actually eats! I just figured that if the opinion was that it was not good to add the water, then I would just stop and give her the tripe seperately. I just hope I don't have to, because she really loves it with the tripe gravy!


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

jprice103 said:


> All in all, I am NOT changing food. She is just doing too well on it and I really like the company behind it. And the added benefit that I finally found a food that she loves and actually eats! I just figured that if the opinion was that it was not good to add the water, then I would just stop and give her the tripe seperately. I just hope I don't have to, because she really loves it with the tripe gravy!


I think with just tripe gravy I would be fine doing that with my dog.


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

I had wanted to soak Joey's kibble, but the Royal Canin contains citric acid.

Don't want to take the chance with my guy.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I don't know if Kirkland has citric acid.
If you ever drop a piece of dry kibble in water and watch what happens...it expands by soaking up all the moisture. When the dog eats plain "dry" kibble I would have to believe that what ever moisture in the body will be absorbed by the kibble as well. I don't remember where I had this discussion before but adding a little water to kibble seems to make sense. When I give breakfast dry it's a much smaller portion so it doesn't bother me.
I have changed my cats diets from all dry kibble to include canned food. I recently learned that all dry was bad for the kidneys causing consitpation. I would think the same would apply for dogs.


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

The vet said Joey's a little dehydrated, and suggested putting water in his kibble.

I know I said in an earlier post that I wouldn't do it, but I gave it a shot.

I put about a half cup of water in his kibble, swish it around till it makes a little gravy, then feed it to him.

Been doing this for about 2 weeks, and so far no ill effects.

Citric acid is the last ingredient in his Royal Canin; hopefully it's not a large amount.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well it was one study done a few years ago and it does not make sense to me that the correlation = causation. Was there ever any follow up to confirm it causes issues?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

@*cheerful1* Here are a couple posts from *Momto2gsds* regarding royal canin. Not specifically related to your problem, but worth knowing.


Royal Canin will now be using Chicken BY-PRODUCTS in their food! http://www.truthaboutpetfood2.com/Ro...ByProducts.pdf

There is a difference:
AAFCO definition Chicken/Poultry Meal
“Poultry Meal is the dry rendered product from a combination of clean flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts of whole carcasses of poultry or a combination thereof, exclusive of feathers, heads, feet, and entrails.”

AAFCO definition Chicken/Poultry By-Product Meal
“Poultry By-Product Meal consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines (poop and parasites!eeeek!), exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as MIGHT occur unavoidably in good processing 



Here is another surprise about Royal Canin.......They are producing a Special Formula made out of FEATHERS......YES......FEATHERS!
This is an article by Dr. Karen Becker: Beware of the New Anallergenic Dog Foods with Feather Meal 

Here are a few excerpts:
Royal Canin’s Anallergenic Dry dog food formula lists the following two ingredients at the top of the list: corn starch and hydrolyzed poultry by-products aggregate [feather meal]. Corn starch is the primary ingredient in this formula. Corn starch is nothing more than filler, and if you read here regularly you know that corn in any form is an ingredient I always recommend avoiding in pet food. It’s notoriously allergenic, and is very often genetically modified. The next ingredient on the list is “hydrolyzed poultry by-products aggregate,” which is a technical name for feather meal. According to Levy, feather meal is “not only nutritious but can also be made very palatable to dogs.” The feathers are broken down to an amino acid level, and palatizers are added for taste. The biological value of feathers is zero, meaning the protein from feather meal cannot be used by the cells of your pet’s body.
Another problem with feather meal is described in a recently published study titled "Feather Meal: A Previously Unrecognized Route for Reentry into the Food Supply of Multiple Pharmaceuticals and Personal Care Products (PPCPs)." Researchers found antimicrobials (antibiotics) in every feather meal sample tested (a total of 12), with up to 10 different drugs in some samples. Samples from China had the greatest number of antimicrobials. In addition to the antibiotics, seven other PPCPs were found in the feather meal samples. Caffeine and acetaminophen (Tylenol) were found in 10 of the 12 samples, and 1,7-dimethylxantine, a metabolite of caffeine, was in 7 of the 12. Other drugs found in the samples included an anti-depressant (Prozac), a fungicide/antiparasitic, an antihistamine (Benadryl), and norgestimate (a synthetic sex hormone).
Keith Levy, President of Royal Canin USA, believes we should focus on health outcomes versus ingredients. Well, Mr. Levy, current health outcomes of feeding non human-grade, biologically inappropriate ingredients include maldigestion, malabsorption, nutrient deficiency in the face of obesity, organ and metabolic dysfunction, and immune dysfunction (both cancer and auto-immmune disease).


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Oh, dear. Have they started this already? I was running low, and ordered a bag from Amazon.

Will the changes show on the ingredients list?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Cheerful1 said:


> Oh, dear. Have they started this already? I was running low, and ordered a bag from Amazon.
> 
> Will the changes show on the ingredients list?


I'm not sure if they've started yet and I'd think they would be required to list the changes. I wouldn't get overly concerned about making an abrupt change, but if you decide to switch you'll need to do it slowly anyways so you'll need the bag you ordered. 

We are going to change two of ours to earthborn. Nothing wrong with the natures varity we are feeding now, but its expensive, especially feeding all 3 of them, only one needs it for allergy reasons.


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

This bag will last a while, so it gives us time to decide what brand we want to phase into.

We help out our late friend's wife by buying dogfood for her golden retrievers. She uses Wellness, and is very happy with it.


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