# Which is the best GSD Line for Dog Intelligence?



## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

Hi, I am wondering if there is a difference in intelligence between all GSD lines? 
Has the original intelligence been bred out of certain lines? Does it still exist? 
Does intelligence equal easy to train? 
So many questions, sorry, and thank you!
Please only speak from experience and not what you think or heard.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Just an FYI, trainability does not necessarily equate to intelligence.

Trainability which is what I think most people really want is a combination of factors and intelligence is only one factor. Food drive, playfulness, sociability, sensitivity to averse stimuli, bounce up rates from said averse stimuli, and other factors I am probably blanking on play a big role. Smart helps but isn't everything.


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## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

I second that intelligence =/= trainability. Intelligence is more so the ability to learn complex tasks, or learn quickly. Trainability is a willingness to obey. Siberian Huskies, in example, are extremely intelligent, constantly learning how to escape or find cold spaces, but they aren't common in obedience rings. Now, with that said, what exactly are you looking for? Working lines are bred to, well, work. They'll go insane without a job, and are very handler-focused, so they're easy to train. However that doesn't mean show lines are dumber than a pile of bricks. They can still learn manners and obedience. It just depends on what type of job you're looking at. In example, a show line would be better for therapy work because they aren't as drivey, but if you want a high level protection dog, a working line would be better because they have the drive and energy for it. That doesn't necessarily mean that the intelligence is different, it's just channeled differently. Working lines are more intense, and show lines are more mellow. 

In addition, these are just (typically very accurate) stereotypes. You could find a very mellow working line or an intense show line. VERY unlikely, but point applies. 

I noticed you attached a picture of Rin Tin Tin. You should be aware that today's GSD is VERY different from Rin Tin Tin's time. I don't believe then, the lines were segregated at all (?) Or at least not as intensely as today. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

IME the more intelligent the dog the LESS easy it is to train for the typical dog owner 

Smart dogs get bored quickly. You cant just drill them over and over, you have to change things up more often and work multiple things at once. They have better memories, meaning any mistake you as the handler makes - the dog is going to remember that and expect it again.

That boredom that the more intelligent dogs are prone to often also translates into destructive or nuisance behavior as well. They can actually be a bit of a nightmare. 

What is it you are looking for in a dog exactly? And why?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Bidability can run in lines, as does hunt drive, prey drive as well as fight drive in a balance. To me, that is a dog with a brain/intelligence. I have one that is a mix of WG/Czech so it isn't so much THE line, but the pedigree match that balanced out the dog(and all the litter was consistent). 
I do believe a thinking dog can be a great challenge for some trainers. Most want a dog that reacts to whatever stimulates or engages them for best results...a thinker takes more time to work/get results because they don't just 'do'. Even though they are biddable and intelligent, they aren't doing it for cookies or a ball toss...they assess the end result and the goals just as much as the handler.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well without throwing for me ... "my" usual suspects under the bus. 

I can say aside from the Labs and Golden's and I don't know any Poodles?? The top dogs on the IQ chart are the most misbehaved I see around here?? I guess one acceptation was a Dobbie, on a flex lead. Super sweet dog on a flexi at the vet office, the dog did pretty much whatever she wanted?? Great dog nonetheless and no way did that guy train her??? 

But "out thing your dog" is something I advocate and depending on where your dog falls on the scale ... some owners could have a hard time doing that. 

But if a dog ranks pretty high on that list and depending on what the breed is good at ... one could find themselves playing "catch up!" The first indication that I saw that my first WL GSD was different??? Was "thresholds" all my dogs respect the front door ... don't step out until I say so! But the back door with a fenced in back yard ... I don't care, slider opens and they were outta here ... whatever. 


But "Rocky" my first OS WL GSD, once he got the front door thing ... he did something that the other dogs did not do with the back door??? I noted it at the time, because it was "unusual??" Once he understood the front door rules ... the first time I opened the back door for him ... I'm expecting him to freaking move ...it's cold outside and I want my coffee but ... I open the door and he stands there?? I'm getting ready to "shout ... "get the heck out???" But I stop and think and instead of shouting get out!!! I say ... OK??? And out he goes??? My other guys saw front and and back doors as different, worked for me. Rocky however saw front and back as "thresholds" and if it's a "threshold" I wait for permission! I was ... stunned! 


That was interesting?? I had no clue ... I was going to be heading for big time troubles 7 months down the road ... he was pretty good at laying low also (I saw no apparent sighs of issues) and then it was game on! But it worked out fine in the long road. That was about 8 years ago and to this day ... it's still "OK" for out the back and "OK" to come back in??? Good or bad the "little things add up" some of them I noticed others not so much?? :surprise:


As they say ...be careful what you wish for.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

That is the wrong question to get the answer you are looking for. Decide what you want to do with your dog, then choose the line. My WL has been the most difficult for me to train but the results when I get them are great.


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

Robin.Medellin said:


> I second that intelligence =/= trainability. Intelligence is more so the ability to learn complex tasks, or learn quickly. Trainability is a willingness to obey. Siberian Huskies, in example, are extremely intelligent, constantly learning how to escape or find cold spaces, but they aren't common in obedience rings. Now, with that said, what exactly are you looking for? Working lines are bred to, well, work. They'll go insane without a job, and are very handler-focused, so they're easy to train. However that doesn't mean show lines are dumber than a pile of bricks. They can still learn manners and obedience. It just depends on what type of job you're looking at. In example, a show line would be better for therapy work because they aren't as drivey, but if you want a high level protection dog, a working line would be better because they have the drive and energy for it. That doesn't necessarily mean that the intelligence is different, it's just channeled differently. Working lines are more intense, and show lines are more mellow.
> 
> In addition, these are just (typically very accurate) stereotypes. You could find a very mellow working line or an intense show line. VERY unlikely, but point applies.
> 
> ...


I attached the picture of Rin Tin Tin because he was the GSD that was used to represent the intelligence of the breed. I wonder if he was working, american, or show. 
I am not picky when it comes to what line, I am more interested in the breed in general. I guess I would say in a wishful thinking I would love a dog with supreme intelligence, beautiful looks, with no hip problems, and with sound character, not nervous, good drive but not a drive that seems crazy or annoying, or too much..


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

@[MENTION][MENTION];[/MENTION][/MENTION]


LuvShepherds said:


> That is the wrong question to get the answer you are looking for. Decide what you want to do with your dog, then choose the line. My WL has been the most difficult for me to train but the results when I get them are great.


So what I've learned so far is; working lines = difficult dog to train, strong willed type. It sounds like It takes a calm collected trainer to train WL's. 
Is there working line dogs that can be easy going, calm, not hard headed in training, yet turn the switch on when needed?


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## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

heroshepherds said:


> I attached the picture of Rin Tin Tin because he was the GSD that was used to represent the intelligence of the breed. I wonder if he was working, american, or show.
> I am not picky when it comes to what line, I am more interested in the breed in general. I guess I would say in a wishful thinking I would love a dog with supreme intelligence, beautiful looks, with no hip problems, and with sound character, not nervous, good drive but not a drive that seems crazy or annoying, or too much..


Are you adamant about a GSD? It might be in your best interest to go back to the drawing board and REALLY assess what you want. Also, what do you define as "too much"? At your request I can help you find your breed via PM, should that be a GSD or otherwise. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

Robin.Medellin said:


> Are you adamant about a GSD? It might be in your best interest to go back to the drawing board and REALLY assess what you want. Also, what do you define as "too much"? At your request I can help you find your breed via PM, should that be a GSD or otherwise.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


I want to stay with a GSD, probably will end up with a pet type. I love the look of the Kraftwerk Dogs in Washington but they cost way too much. So far I have not seen better looking dogs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Rin Tin Tin _represented_ the intelligence of the breed but at the end of the day his lines are irrelevant - he was an actor. Just as acting in war movies wouldn't make any one of us fit to be a soilder.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Fodder said:


> Rin Tin Tin _represented_ the intelligence of the breed but at the end of the day his lines are irrelevant - he was an actor. Just as acting in war movies wouldn't make any one of us fit to be a soilder.


if you actually look at the history of Rin Tin Tin, he had a very expressive face as well as good trick training. That was part of his success. One of his offspring, Son of Rin Tin Tin, also did well with the tricks and skills for the movie set but his face was less expressive. I guess he was lacking in charm? Or the movie audience wanted more than just a good looking smart dog. 

Also there are different kinds of smarts. There are those dogs who are smart enough to try things on their own and get into all kinds of trouble. There are those dogs who are smart enough to wait for their people to get them what they want and not go through the trouble themselves. Which dog would you call smarter?


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

Fodder said:


> Rin Tin Tin _represented_ the intelligence of the breed but at the end of the day his lines are irrelevant - he was an actor. Just as acting in war movies wouldn't make any one of us fit to be a soilder.


I agree that Rin Tin Tin was just an actor. I meant he represented the intelligence of the breed only.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

heroshepherds said:


> I guess I would say in a wishful thinking I would love a dog with supreme intelligence, beautiful looks, with no hip problems, and with sound character, not nervous, good drive but not a drive that seems crazy or annoying, or too much..


You can certainly find that dream dog. 

I think there are many, many of us here on the forum that have the dog you described, _and from different lines_. My dog Carly is one. Everyone that knows her jokingly calls her the perfect dog. Scary smart, beautiful (retired show dog), OFA Good hips, great with children, appropriately aloof with strangers, major ball drive, food drive, and a williness to do anything that I ask her. She is a joy. She is ASL. I know you can find that perfect dog in all the lines, you just have to do your research, and take your time.


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

car2ner said:


> if you actually look at the history of Rin Tin Tin, he had a very expressive face as well as good trick training. That was part of his success. One of his offspring, Son of Rin Tin Tin, also did well with the tricks and skills for the movie set but his face was less expressive. I guess he was lacking in charm? Or the movie audience wanted more than just a good looking smart dog.
> 
> Also there are different kinds of smarts. There are those dogs who are smart enough to try things on their own and get into all kinds of trouble. There are those dogs who are smart enough to wait for their people to get them what they want and not go through the trouble themselves. Which dog would you call smarter?


I agree with different kinds of smart for different things. I have noticed in my full bred GSD vs mixed GSD. They are both very smart but at different things.


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

dogfaeries said:


> You can certainly find that dream dog.
> 
> I think there are many, many of us here on the forum that have the dog you described, _and from different lines_. My dog Carly is one. Everyone that knows her jokingly calls her the perfect dog. Scary smart, beautiful (retired show dog), OFA Good hips, great with children, appropriately aloof with strangers, major ball drive, food drive, and a williness to do anything that I ask her. She is a joy. She is ASL. I know you can find that perfect dog in all the lines, you just have to do your research, and take your time.


Great to hear this. What breeder is she from? There was a breeder in my town who was combining "the best of all breeds" in her dogs, american, german, and czech. She had been doing this for close to 30 years with great success, she just retired though and has no dogs left to sell. Heres a pic of one of her dogs.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

heroshepherds said:


> @[MENTION][MENTION];[/MENTION][/MENTION]
> 
> *So what I've learned so far is; working lines = difficult dog to train, strong willed type*. It sounds like It takes a calm collected trainer to train WL's.
> Is there working line dogs that can be easy going, calm, not hard headed in training, yet turn the switch on when needed?


This would not be an accurate statement. 

Yes, there are working line dogs that are easy to train with an on / off switch. 

A calm, collected trainer will do best when training any dog, not just WL dogs.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

heroshepherds said:


> @[MENTION][MENTION];[/MENTION][/MENTION]
> 
> So what I've learned so far is; working lines = difficult dog to train, strong willed type. It sounds like It takes a calm collected trainer to train WL's.
> Is there working line dogs that can be easy going, calm, not hard headed in training, yet turn the switch on when needed?


Your generalization about WLs could not be further from reality. WLs are selectively bred for high trainability. What sense would it make to breed working dogs that are hard to train?

That's not to say all WLs are created equal. Different bloodlines produce dogs with varying talents and skills. Even within a single litter, not every pup will show the same drives, hardness and biddability.

*Hardness* is a badly misunderstood term. It does not mean hard headed. It means resilient. It's a highly desirable trait in the GSD.

All of that said, WLs are not for everyone. A dog with high drive and energy needs outlets. It's kinder to place that dog in a working home. Good breeders understand the need to produce strong working dogs who have *off switches*, i.e. They can settle nicely in the house. I've got a 9 wk old Czech WL pup who is already showing the ability to chill.

You may end up happier with a WG show line dog. They have drive as well, but it's easier to find a pup with more moderate drives among the showlines. Many of these dogs have some minor flaw like a missing tooth that renders them ineligible for a top show rating. They represent an opportunity to buy a beautiful well bred dog, as they will be sold as pets.

Scour the boards for more info. If you are interested in a WL dog, get out to an IPO or SDA or other dog sport club and observe.


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

zetti said:


> Your generalization about WLs could not be further from reality. WLs are selectively bred for high trainability. What sense would it make to breed working dogs that are hard to train?
> 
> That's not to say all WLs are created equal. Different bloodlines produce dogs with varying talents and skills. Even within a single litter, not every pup will show the same drives, hardness and biddability.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, I was just posting what I'd learned so far based on the answers received here. Everyone has had a slightly different opinion.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

The story of Rin Tin Tin. He didn't have the best temperament, he was a biter.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2089735/Rin-Tin-Tin-Hollywoods-dog-40m-fans-drank-milk-champagne-glass.html


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

heroshepherds said:


> @[MENTION][MENTION];[/MENTION][/MENTION]
> 
> So what I've learned so far is; working lines = difficult dog to train, strong willed type. It sounds like It takes a calm collected trainer to train WL's.
> Is there working line dogs that can be easy going, calm, not hard headed in training, yet turn the switch on when needed?


There can be working line dogs like that, but it's not what most are bred for. You would have to ask on the forum if anyone knows a breeder who breeds that type of dog. Mine is supppsed to be medium drive, but his is much drivier than the WGSLs I know. Compared to the highest drive dos, he is calmer and easier, but it's still challenging.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

heroshepherds said:


> @[MENTION];[/MENTION]
> 
> So what I've learned so far is; working lines = difficult dog to train, strong willed type. .


No.  My working line is very easy to train and wants to please. Some can be harder and some can be like mine. It's about the individual breeding. You will find this in all lines.




heroshepherds said:


> Is there working line dogs that can be easy going, calm, not hard headed in training, yet turn the switch on when needed?


YES!!

You seem to be looking and want to learn. The best way to find the answers to your questions is go to a club and start watching the dogs. Look at some training seminars and go watch some methods. Where are you located at?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I would say a German Shepherd dog is not a breed for a beginner. Be able to commit to an hour of training a day for the first year. at least It is not a goldendoodle or a pug.


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> No.  My working line is very easy to train and wants to please. Some can be harder and some can be like mine. It's about the individual breeding. You will find this in all lines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice I have never been to a club or seminar but would love to start doing that since what I've currently learned is online and its probably not the same? youtube videos, Michael Ellis and others.


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## heroshepherds (Jan 2, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I would say a German Shepherd dog is not a breed for a beginner. Be able to commit to an hour of training a day for the first year. at least It is not a goldendoodle or a pug.


I have two german shepherds, they are 4, and 5 years old. They are my first dogs ever, Initially training the first one was ok, not hard, then we added a second one and I did struggle a bit to train them both just for obedience due to lack of knowledge and training two dogs at once is hard, initially 15 minutes a day everyday.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I would say a German Shepherd dog is not a breed for a beginner. Be able to commit to an hour of training a day for the first year. at least It is not a goldendoodle or a pug.


I don't know of any dog that can handle being trained for an hour at a time.

A GSD can be a fine first time owner's dog. It's just a matter of getting the right dog from the right breeder. My adopted girl, Lexi, could be handled by a six year old.

My suggestion would be that the OP look at the WGSL. Find a responsible breeder who does health clearances, OFA hips and elbows, DM, etc. Tell the breeder exactly the kind of dog you want, how much time you can commit to training and let the breeder choose the pup.

Training is a must for the GSD, they were bred to work closely with a human shepherd. Two ten minute sessions daily will get you a nicely behaved dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. It's not the same. You can get a much better feel watching the dogs and asking questions


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

heroshepherds said:


> So what I've learned so far is; working lines = difficult dog to train, strong willed type. It sounds like It takes a calm collected trainer to train WL's.
> Is there working line dogs that can be easy going, calm, not hard headed in training, yet turn the switch on when needed?





Slamdunc said:


> This would not be an accurate statement.
> 
> Yes, there are working line dogs that are easy to train with an on / off switch.
> 
> A calm, collected trainer will do best when training any dog, not just WL dogs.


:thumbup: To me, strong willed doesn't necessarily equate to difficult to train. Halo is intense, extremely opinionated, and yet also very focused. She is smart, clever, devious, determined, but also cuddly and affectionate. I would not call her calm or easy going. She's my first WL shepherd after having 2 American line and 2 WGSL dogs, and while she was certainly challenging when younger because I didn't really know what to do with her drives, she was also the star of all of her obedience classes. The instructor in our puppy classes used her as the demo dog several times, and we were frequently pointed out to the other people in her classes as the example to watch because she was almost always way ahead of all the other dogs. If she was bored I could lose her to the environment but as long as I worked to keep her engaged with me, she excelled. She loves to train, and has not been difficult to train since she's easily motivated by either food or play. Which is not to say she's perfect, by any means..... :rofl: 

Halo also has an excellent off switch. My husband and I were both on our computers one weekend and I came out to find her snuggled into my couch throw: 










At flyball practice and tournaments she waits quietly and calmly in her crate, but once she's in the ring she's bucking and screaming like a demented chimpanzee. She totally turns it on and turns it off. I like to say she works hard, plays hard, and then sleeps hard. Love her to bits.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This is what Halo likes to do when she's not keeping the couch warm, lol. That's my teammate racing her because I'd hurt my back box loading at the tournament:


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Every dog is hard to train if you don't understand how to communicate to the dog. I personally find WL's easier to train. Generally, they love to work. Therefor, they want to work/train. Now as some said some dogs are more bidable than others. Individual dogs do vary. WL's can settle just fine. My dogs are not kennel dogs. They live in the house and go with us everywhere. Getting a dog to settle, a lot of the times is a conditioning issue. As far as drive levels, everyone's views of drive are different. The more dogs you've been around/worked, the better judge you can be on drive levels. To some a dog I consider low drive to them is high drive. It's in reference to experience. All in all, I find a well balanced, stable tempered GSD to be the best. 

I like my dogs to be able to go from this


to this


to this at a blink of an eye


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

mycobraracr said:


> Every dog is hard to train if you don't understand how to communicate to the dog. I personally find WL's easier to train. Generally, they love to work. Therefor, they want to work/train. Now as some said some dogs are more bidable than others. Individual dogs do vary. WL's can settle just fine. My dogs are not kennel dogs. They live in the house and go with us everywhere. Getting a dog to settle, a lot of the times is a conditioning issue. *As far as drive levels, everyone's views of drive are different. The more dogs you've been around/worked, the better judge you can be on drive levels. To some a dog I consider low drive to them is high drive. It's in reference to experience. *


I totally agree. Although we've had GSDs for over 30 years, my experience with WL shepherds is very limited. Halo is higher drive than I was used to when we got her, but I have no idea if she's ACTUALLY high drive or not because I have no real basis for comparison. She does have a great work ethic, which has made training fun. 

I also agree that calm behavior can be conditioned, like any other behavior. You can't change the genetics, but you can reinforce the behavior you want and manage the dog's environment to limit its opportunities to misbehave. I think this is overlooked a lot. People are always talking about giving your dog more and more and more exercise as a way to get them to settle, but how about actually making being calm a rewarding experience for the dog? I don't see nearly as much emphasis on that.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Our WL male is very easy to train, he loves working with us. He has intensity even for the routine stuff. Our girl Zoe is fun to train as well and she is every bit as enthusiastic as our male, but she is a bit "leaky". Both settle nicely in the home.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

zetti said:


> I don't know of any dog that can handle being trained for an hour at a time.
> 
> A GSD can be a fine first time owner's dog. It's just a matter of getting the right dog from the right breeder. My adopted girl, Lexi, could be handled by a six year old.
> 
> ...


 Not trained for an hour at a time. I was talking about an hour total, broken up into fifteen minute or twenty minute sections. My GSD bloodline is from Croatia> Zamp von Thermados and she has one hundred and fifty four Schuzhunds in her lineage. I once had some pet quality GSDs and they were not first time owner dogs either.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Not trained for an hour at a time. I was talking about an hour total, broken up into fifteen minute or twenty minute sections. My GSD bloodline is from Croatia> Zamp von Thermados and she has one hundred and fifty four Schuzhunds in her lineage. I once had some pet quality GSDs and they were not first time owner dogs either.


I don't think an hour a day broken up throughout the day is necessary. I know some who has 6 dogs that know basic commands that are fine.
Essentially being willing to spend time with a dog is enough. That's with any line. Or any breeding. A lot of us have working line dogs with many IPO qualified dogs in their lineage. It all depends on the effort of an owner to spend quality time with their dog. Be it training or hiking, or interacting.
And any dog can be fine for a first time owner. If they are willing to put in the effort


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think an hour per day is unreasonable. Training to exercise the mind, walking, running or throwing a toy to exercise the body. Doesn't take long to use up the better part of an hour. How much exercise a dog needs to tire them out is 100% dependent on the dog, regardless of lines or personal lineage.

Whether the dog is for first time owners depends on two things...breeding and the amount of time the owner wants to spend working with the dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Not trained for an hour at a time. I was talking about an hour total, broken up into fifteen minute or twenty minute sections. My GSD bloodline is from Croatia> Zamp von Thermados and she has one hundred and fifty four Schuzhunds in her lineage. I once had some pet quality GSDs and they were not first time owner dogs either.


Zamp vom Thermodos is a show line.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I would say a German Shepherd dog is not a breed for a beginner. Be able to commit to an hour of training a day for the first year. at least It is not a goldendoodle or a pug.


I really hate when people say stuff like this.

A GSD is not a dog for an uninformed and unprepared beginner. I would even say probably not for an unsupported beginner.

I'm certain I'm not alone in having raised a well adjusted, well mannered, reasonably well trained GSD armed not with personal experience but with research, preparation, and the help and moral support of the knowledgeable people who were in our corner. But if I had a dollar for every person who said it was the wrong dog for me, that I'd mess it up, that I wasn't experienced enough to do a good job - I would have my next puppy's purchase price banked.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Zamp vom Thermodos is a show line.


Ooooooh, BURN...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think Nurse Bishop has ever claimed to have a working line? I think it was just assumed from his posts about Schutzhund titles. I could be wrong because I don't keep track of old posts. But show lines have Schutzhund titles too.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OP... I think ... you are "assuming" that a highly intelligent breed would be the easiest to train?? That kinda sorta makes sense?? But that is not exactly how it works out! Some of the worst behaved dogs are in those top 10 list! I used to think ... all the "Herder Dogs" were "all" horrible, badly behaved, obnoxious, barking, people biting, car chasing, wild horse chasing miserable bundles of fur!

And all the one's I'd seen were (like that) ... save for one! My neighbors, Herder (Dog) was now mine! She'd escaped the yard one time to many for him ... so it was off to the pound you go! Sigh ... while I had no use for her. I do rescue work, so (fine then) I'll take her and help her find a home. Aside from being house broken, she knew "nothing!" Puppy mill mamma "always" in the back yard and she would howl and cry for hours!!! My wife and I constantly for at least a year were calling animal control (barking and howling at all hours of the night!) I know the (owners) finally got cited at least once ... nothing changed! So that ... was the dog I now had in my possession! 

I did nothing with her for a few weeks, aside from walks and outings with my dogs. And it seemed like well she was going to stay with me??? I'm more of a Bully and Boxer guy so all that fur (Molly) was not my thing but ... if the dog is staying ... then trained and well behaved ... she will become. 

And ... it worked out great!! The dog was freaking brilliant! My wife was pretty much crazy about her out the gate ... she wanted to keep her ... but sigh ... I have a lot of "attitude about dogs/breeds" .... kinda of a "Show Me" kinda guy and I'd never seen a well behaved "Herder" dog around "me??" But hey as I say "Show Me" and Molly did ...yes ... I was impressed. I finally broached the subject of keeping her (it had been three months maybe???) Molly was still on the list. So we had just started talking about keeping her and then ... the phone rang!!! 

A thirteen year old wanted a dog for X-Mas and saw Molly online and said ... that's the one! Of course as fosters we had first dibs ... but in as much as my original goal was to help her find a home ... we played it out. Maybe you know the kid won't like her??? 

Awe well ... sadly??? I'd done my job to well, Molly and the kid got along great ... only had one "Test" to pass. If the dog walks wells on a "loose leash" we'll take her! At that point ... I understood "Molly" was gone! The one thing I excel at is "training a dog to walk properly on a loose leash" (Slip Lead Leash) guy. So outside we go I explain a bit and hand the leash over and off they go up and down the block and "Molly" walks calmly by the child's side like she'd been doing that forever! Off she went to her new home, I'd done my job to well??? 

Had it been left to me ... I'd have kept her, but "women" sigh ... "Marilyn" was whining about break some kids heart at Christmas, if I did not want to place her ... I should have taken her off the list, before the kid saw her ... and so it goes. But we were heartbroken that Christmas. 

Yesss .... so "Herder Dogs" are intelligent indeed and way to much work and effort for most people! That is the "problem" with the top ten for a lot of people!



And then came "Rocky OS WL GSD" my second experiance with a top ten dog! Him I kept and "ultimately" it worked out fine but it was a very hard bumpy ride ... many lessons to be learned there ... one of them being "two dogs are a pair three dogs are a pack" And if you have Dominate male dog number one and add Dominate male dog number two ... you'd best have your "act together!" 

Had I seen problems ... out the gate ... well most likely ... I'd not be here??? I'd had at that time more than a decade of experiance with American Band Dawgs. APBT/Boxers and Boxers ... my first WL GSD ...no big deal?? Yessss ... well ... not so much! The first "trap" I fell into was the old "my dog changed thing???" We got "Rocky" at seven months old and for another seven months ... there were no issues that I saw???

And then one day "out of the blue" and now at a full grown 116 lbs ... "Rocky" attacked Gunther (American Band Dawg) and now ... it was game on like "Donkey Kong!!" Many lessons to be learned and I got the first stitches in my life every ...breaking up a dog fight!! And that crap ... was just round one of two! Ultimately ... I never had the opportunity to solve that issue! Gunther passed due to unrelated issues following the "fifth" fight and Rocky "always started them!" But you know ... lack of structure. He was given the opportunity and took full advantage of it! 

Ultimately ... again in retrospect, my failure was caused in part because I was caught off guard and I was constantly "reacting" to "Rocky's" actions instead of "preventing them" ie "lack of structure." What I had done in the past ... had been fine but unbeknownst to me??? All my other dogs had been low rank drive dogs??? There place in the dog pack ... was good with them. Rocky was not willing to accept being dog number two (Never any Boxer involvement in the dust ups) without "protest." 

Round number two was to follow H/A??? "I don't much care for company" was how or... first guest "ever" were greeted ,A cold hard stare and a low growl .... WTH??? But this time ... I was ready ...yeah time for "Pay" back! Ultimately we got it done, not that hard and it did not take force or coercion ... it did take "out thinking him" and "rules structure and limitations!" He does not have to "like" anyone but he does have to be "civil!" I guess all of that was seven years ago ... and "Rocky" is still here. 

I kinda sorta outline how I got it right and what I did wrong on here. Get (R/S/L) right out the gate ... not that hard (if you know) and you can skip the middle part (figuring out what went wrong??) I don't recommend GSD's of any type to most people but that's mostly becasue the people I know and the dogs I see all tend to be fools! With rare exception ... there are a couple of "good dogs" near me and "we" smile and wave at each other from across the street! "I don't know you, I don't know your dog ... you keep your distance .... we will do the same" ... works out fine!

Well ... kind of a wild tangent here but these were my experiance with a couple of the top ten dogs, and more directly to your "topic"... as far as I've seen in the top ten list ... I don't see them making any distinction between WL and SL, GSD's?? Most likely ... that is an insiders thing?? 

Aww well ... I'm a "Boxer" guy also and the top 10/20 list ... is way to crowed for us but you know ..."we just don't care." 

Welcome Aboard.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I would say a German Shepherd dog is not a breed for a beginner. Be able to commit to an hour of training a day for the first year. at least It is not a goldendoodle or a pug.


Doddle's are certainly not my thing but someone on here saw one at there "Club" event being worked and he said "that" one was a pretty serious freaking dog!

And of course no standards for the "Doddle" crown and I've seen some things about some of those dogs inheriting a lot of the "bad traits" of both breeds?? But a Pug ...well yeah for the truly lazy ... that's the way to go. Don't see how one could go from a "GSD" to a "Pug" however???" 

But hey ... people do stuff ... my lazy clueless friends went from a "Pug" to herder dogs ... at last count the latest dog, has bitten the owner four times and strangers three times!! The last one ... I observed as they actually ... "de-trained" the dog!!! Yes ... apparently ... that can be done???:surprise:

Dog came after me once ... I turned my back and he was going for my heels ...yeah that's not gonna happen!! I no longer visit them and there pack of curs!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> I don't think an hour a day broken up throughout the day is necessary. I know some who has 6 dogs that know basic commands that are fine.
> Essentially being willing to spend time with a dog is enough. That's with any line. Or any breeding. A lot of us have working line dogs with many IPO qualified dogs in their lineage. It all depends on the effort of an owner to spend quality time with their dog. Be it training or hiking, or interacting.
> And any dog can be fine for a first time owner. If they are willing to put in the effort


 The effort--That seems like it would depend on what the handler wanted to train. Basic obedience, sit stay, down? My ten month old knows and is proofed in twenty six commands so far. Training is given while hiking, riding horses, in the farm yard among milling animals and chickens, going into town to a dog park to generalize commands under heavy distraction - by the way only when there are no dogs in one side. All this takes time and energy but what a joy it is. I have never had a dog this intelligent.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

" Don't see how one could go from a "GSD" to a "Pug" however???" 

I did not say go from GSD to Pug. I meant that if PeoPle don't want to commit to training a Real Dog and they want a Pet maybe they should not get a working breed.

By the way, my GSD sPilled a glass of water in my keyboard and now I have to coPy and Paste the letter P.:|


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

ZamP von Thermados was European and as such he and all his ancestors had to be titled and have good hiPs in order to breed. Thats why all the schutzhunds.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I don't think Nurse Bishop has ever claimed to have a working line? I think it was just assumed from his posts about Schutzhund titles. I could be wrong because I don't keep track of old posts. But show lines have Schutzhund titles too.


Nurse Bishop has stated they own a European working line.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8219826-post1.html


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nurse Bishop said:


> " Don't see how one could go from a "GSD" to a "Pug" however???"
> 
> I did not say go from GSD to Pug. I meant that if PeoPle don't want to commit to training a Real Dog and they want a Pet maybe they should not get a working breed.
> 
> By the way, my GSD sPilled a glass of water in my keyboard and now I have to coPy and Paste the letter P.:|


GSD's are wayyyy easier than pugs! lol


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> The effort--That seems like it would depend on what the handler wanted to train. Basic obedience, sit stay, down? My ten month old knows and is proofed in twenty six commands so far. Training is given while hiking, riding horses, in the farm yard among milling animals and chickens, going into town to a dog park to generalize commands under heavy distraction - by the way only when there are no dogs in one side. All this takes time and energy but what a joy it is. I have never had a dog this intelligent.


Training is fun for some people. But to say an hour of training a day is required isnt necessarily true. And you can put a number on it, but an obedient inteligent dog is just that. Not a dog that knows 26 commands. Some people say commands are trained tricks.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> Training is fun for some people. But to say an hour of training a day is required isnt necessarily true. And you can put a number on it, but an obedient inteligent dog is just that. Not a dog that knows 26 commands. Some people say commands are trained tricks.


I am working on using fewer commands. The fewer the better. Why confuse the dog if I can get what I want with a limited number? I think we confuse quantity with better trained. That is just not true.

My trainer who is the best one I have ever worked with, said twenty minutes a day is enough. Our vet said dogs learn better with a day or two between sessions. It becomes ingrained when they aren't doing the same thing every day.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My boy-dog has IPO 2 and 3s on the males in his line. The females at least IPO 1 (i suspect they started breeding after they got the 1) His dad only got the BH since he was in Germany and oversized. He got sold to an American, our breeder, because he had such a great temperament. 

So how smart is my dog? Well, he was smart enough to be a handful as a pup. He is smart enough to get along well with the house rules. I did Dognition with him and I found out that when presented with a choice of something on the left or something on the right, nearly always he will chose the one on the left, regardless of other variables. So what did that show me about his intelligence. Maybe he isn't concerned with getting a treat, if he goes follows his formula it always works out. 
He also plays tricks on my husband. It's funny.

here is a part of the playing around we did today.





do I get stories like this from my friends with WL? sure do!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> ZamP von Thermados was European and as such he and all his ancestors had to be titled and have good hiPs in order to breed. Thats why all the schutzhunds.


ALL the schutzhunds? In the whole wide world?


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Not trained for an hour at a time. I was talking about an hour total, broken up into fifteen minute or twenty minute sections. My GSD bloodline is from Croatia> Zamp von Thermados and she has one hundred and fifty four Schuzhunds in her lineage. I once had some pet quality GSDs and they were not first time owner dogs either.


Just FYI, a SCH title, now IPO, is a bare minimum breeding requirement in Europe. Having SCH titles on the dog's ancestors is to be expected with dogs other than ASL or byb. I wouldn't read too much into it--titles can be considerably easier to get in some places outside the US.

If you would like, you can post your dog's parents' info and I imagine you will get some knowledgeable feedback on your dog's lineage.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> ALL the schutzhunds? In the whole wide world?


No. One hundred and fifty four schutzhunds in her seven generation pedigree.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nurse Bishop said:


> No. One hundred and fifty four schutzhunds in her seven generation pedigree.


that is a system , title required prior for permission to breed (register with SV the parent organization) , not a comment on intelligence.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurse Bishop View Post
What commands did your GSD know and at what age? Inga is 10 months old and she knows 25 commands:

Sit
Down
Stay 
Sit, Down, Stay (from distant hand signals)
Stand
Up (get up on something)
Off
Load Up (truck)
Off Load 
Jump (as into water or through hoops)
Get It
Bring It
Out!
Kennel
No!
OK (the release command)
Come
Heel 
Eat!Eat! (verschlingen)
Lets Go
Relax
Enough (as in enough barking)
No Bite (stop mouthing)
What Is It? (Very important, not over used. When Inga is barking in in alarm, barking while jumping up off the floor, this means run out there and find out what the heck it is. We can do this, we live on a ranch)

still working on - 
Find it (tracking)
Drag (while biting onto her knotted rope and lying on side, allow herself to be dragged across the lawn)
Leave It
Guard

My man and I taught her and we never went to any trainer. We put in the time to work her at least twice a day. These are 15 minute sessions mixed with play. She gets exercised first to get her puppy energy burnt off somewhat so she can focus. She gets taken to big box stores and put through her paces on leash under distraction, gets taken to dog parks if one side is empty and worked under heavy distraction. 

We started when Inga was 6 weeks old with Don Sullivan's methods and equipment. The reward is praise and play, not becoming a treat dispenser. When she became a big strong dog, she is a European working lines GSD, we went to a prong collar to keep her from pulling. We also use an e collar set on vibrate that is effective up to 500 yards for distance work. If she went after a calf or a deer it can give a strong correction. But they have to be trained not to even look at a "critter" first. E collars are actually a lot of work. It is to reinforce the commands the dog already knows. mostly we use the lowest settings- tone and vibrate. We are fortunate to have the time to do these things. Inga is my first GSD and is a joy to train and to work with. Now the teenage attitude is starting to appear but we will get through it."

..........................................................................
Thanks for posting a link to this. Zamp von Thermados is just one ancestor seven generations back. There are many other European ancestors. This GSdog of mine is the most intelligent dog I have ever known. It would be a waste of her to not train her to the max. Just today I took her out first time into a running herd of cows and calves. She heeled like glue to my knee and sat calmly to the relax command. This could save her life because dogs can be shot dead for chasing cattle in Texas. She can be put into a down from a quarter mile off and then be called to heel with hand signals. And she is still a puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nurse Bishop said:


> she is a European working lines GSD,
> 
> Zamp von Thermados


(*** Deleted by Admin *** )

Zamp is show line. What's the rest of her pedigree?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Can someone explain to me how it is that schutzhund/IPO titles are easier to get in Europe? Are they outright lying? Are they passing weak dogs? Are the judges corrupt?


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Can someone explain to me how it is that schutzhund/IPO titles are easier to get in Europe? Are they outright lying? Are they passing weak dogs? Are the judges corrupt?


Well. Let's start by saying that there are simply many more clubs and thus many more opportunities to trial in Europe.

As for your other questions--the term Santa Claus occasionally comes to mind. Some things can just be bought.

Look at it this way, there is a LOT of money in top end GSDs, particularly the SLs. Whenever there is money involved with animals, the animals will lose.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

American show line, west German show Line or working line- one line is not more intelligent the the next. It comes down to genetics. Intelligence can be hard to measure. The breed does seem to want to inspire owners to learn much more. I know feel like I'm and learning and doing so much with Max I did with any dog I ever owned. They soak things up like sponges that you need to learn more to teach them.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

That makes sense. I guess you either need to trust the breeder, see the dog or reliable video of the dog yourself, and/or see that the dog was titled at a national or international competition. 

Some breeders select for pack drive or genetic obedience in their dogs, and that might be something the OP should seek out.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> " Don't see how one could go from a "GSD" to a "Pug" however???"
> 
> I did not say go from GSD to Pug. I meant that if PeoPle don't want to commit to training a Real Dog and they want a Pet maybe they should not get a working breed.
> 
> By the way, my GSD sPilled a glass of water in my keyboard and now I have to coPy and Paste the letter P.:|


Aww I'm not picking on you! But you know "Boxer" guy ... so if anyone mentions a "Brachycephalic Breed" most likely I'll have something to say. 

But those "Doodles" yeah ...more dog than some people were expecting there.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh well OP you are "actually" doing what you need to do ask questions! That's researching ... beforE pulling the trigger and that "is" what you need to do! As I say "I don't recommend" WL GSD because of my experiance with my first WL GSD as a "pet person!" But you know "I" got it done still you know people do stuff so you can imagine how stunned I was when a member on here actually got a "WL GSD" because of my adventures with "Rocky??" And it seems to be working just fine for him. So while the top 10 thing is interesting?? That "alone" is just not the way to go for picking a dog!

As I say "I" don't recommend WL GSD to uh anyone but "apparently" despite that it would appear I did just that! SlamDunk seems to belive that ... there are "WL GSD" that are "suitable" for "pet people." I'll take him at his word as he would know. 

I pretty much "focus on the mistakes" that can be made and "apparently" if you read "between the lines and don't do "that" it works out fine! So ... the top thing is just not the way to go for picking a "Breed??"

I just can't however resist the urge to drive that bus over someone?? And I choose ... Mals and Boxers, those guys are nowhere to be found in any 10 ten dogie IQ, list?? But those of us that have trained and luv them are quite pleased with our choices!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Enough snarky comments back and forth! If you have issues with a poster, please notify. 

ADMIN


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Nurse Bishop - I was NOT being snarky at you. Others are misconstruing the comment.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Huh??? Did I miss something???


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I must have missed it too.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I am a beginner here to learn, not an expert by any stretch. Inga is the first dog I've ever really trained. Sight hounds do not need to be trained. They just lie on a pillow then disappear with you and your horse at forty mph. But this GSD female is just crackling with intelligence and eager to please like no other I have ever known. So I started to research this in her pedigree. It seems to me that bloodlines of dogs that had to be titled in some kind of a skill in order to be used for breeding- thats got to have something to do with intelligence and trainability. Also, the nerves. The schutzhuds had to have guns shot off next to them in order to pass.Could this have something to do with the fearlessness and unflappabilityI see in my dog? I think it does.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Can someone explain to me how it is that schutzhund/IPO titles are easier to get in Europe? Are they outright lying? Are they passing weak dogs? Are the judges corrupt?


easy .
Because there is an entire society and industry set up that makes it conveniently close, a social experience, and a reason to generate good decoys .
There are no 2 and 3 hour road trips. 
There are no secretive locations where only the "in" crowd knows how to find the field .

Are weak dogs passed -- sure -- some -- Can judges be influenced --- sure , are they human?

Just look at the annual year end trials BSZS vs BSP showline dog in one venue , working line in the other.
Apples to oranges.

Keep to their own. Not an equal experience . You can not go by title alone.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> That makes sense. I guess you either need to trust the breeder, see the dog or reliable video of the dog yourself, and/or see that the dog was titled at a national or international competition.
> 
> Some breeders select for pack drive or genetic obedience in their dogs, and that might be something the OP should seek out.


If you're talking about importing a dog, it's crucial to work with someone you know well and trust completely. A lot of Americans get ripped off because they get it into their heads that they *must* own a dog from Europe.

Who knows what kind of dog you'll actually be sent.

When I imported my girl from Holland, I went through a breeder I know very well and she went through her contact in Europe. I got a wonderful, healthy dog.

There are, however, plenty of perfectly fine dogs born in the US.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

zetti said:


> When I imported my girl from Holland, I went through a breeder I know very well and she went through her contact in Europe. I got a wonderful, healthy dog.
> There are, however, plenty of perfectly fine dogs born in the US.


Then why did you go through the hassle of importing from Holland and the additional risk of relying on others????

SuperG


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Then why did you go through the hassle of importing from Holland and the additional risk of relying on others????
> 
> SuperG


I liked the dog.

The hassle was minimal other than a trip to the airport. That was my whole point. By dealing only with trusted partners, the entire experience was smooth and I got a wonderful dog.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

zetti said:


> I liked the dog.
> 
> .



You went to Holland and observed the dog?...... what did you like so much about it?

SuperG


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> You went to Holland and observed the dog?...... what did you like so much about it?
> 
> SuperG


Nope. Liked her bloodline and what I learned about her from my contact.

You seem to want to put me on the defensive about this. I can't fathom as to your motive. But I'm happy to talk about my dog. She was a wonderful girl. I had hoped she would be my foundation bitch, but alas, I changed my mind about breeding.

Lost her on Christmas Eve a few years ago at age 12 to kidney failure. Still miss her very much.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

zetti said:


> You seem to want to put me on the defensive about this. I can't fathom as to your motive.


No evil motive involved....I was just a bit confused about your comments " When I imported my girl from Holland, I went through a breeder I know very well and she went through her contact in Europe. I got a wonderful, healthy dog. There are, however, plenty of perfectly fine dogs born in the US. "........it just seemed a contradiction as to what you did and then what you professed. 

FWIW.......my motivation for asking you the questions I did was.......I imported my current dog from Germany and I was curious why you chose to import when you acknowledged there are wonderful specimens available in the US....pretty much as I did. My rationale was more based on the previous ASL GSDs I had....unfortunately....neither lived very long and were plagued with health issues.....so I decided to import one with a pedigree that appeared to offer a better upside than what I had previously experienced....so far so good....

I am not suggesting that there are not ASLs which have quality health potential....more than likely.....I just had bad luck...coupled with a less than adequate due diligence on my behalf......so I mostly hold myself responsible.

Bringing this post back toward the original topic.....I most certainly did discover....my current WGSL exhibits much more of a trainable "intelligence" than my previous 2 ASLs...however...some of this might be due to my education garnered from my previous 2 GSDs....as I learned the ropes along the way. I know some of this could be interpreted as a sweeping generalization suggesting a WGSL has more potential than an ASL with respect to "intelligence".....but my opinion is solely based on my experience....nothing more.

I apologize if my questions made you feel like I was putting you on the defense......it was not my intent.

SuperG


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> No evil motive involved....I was just a bit confused about your comments " When I imported my girl from Holland, I went through a breeder I know very well and she went through her contact in Europe. I got a wonderful, healthy dog. There are, however, plenty of perfectly fine dogs born in the US. "........it just seemed a contradiction as to what you did and then what you professed.
> 
> FWIW.......my motivation for asking you the questions I did was.......I imported my current dog from Germany and I was curious why you chose to import when you acknowledged there are wonderful specimens available in the US....pretty much as I did. My rationale was more based on the previous ASL GSDs I had....unfortunately....neither lived very long and were plagued with health issues.....so I decided to import one with a pedigree that appeared to offer a better upside than what I had previously experienced....so far so good....
> 
> ...


There are perfectly fine dogs available in the US. For my breeding program, I wanted to use that particular dog. My point was, it's not necessary to import a dog or puppy to get a good one. A lot of new GSD buyers think they can only get good dogs in Europe. They're also the most likely to be ripped off.

My OP was meant to be both a cautionary tale and an example. If you are adamant that only a dog from Europe will do, you *must* work through trustworthy contacts.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

zetti said:


> . They're also the most likely to be ripped off.


That can happen anywhere.... but I get your drift. 


SuperG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

superG said "I most certainly did discover....my current WGSL exhibits much more of a trainable "intelligence" than my previous 2 ASLs...however...some of this might be due to my education garnered from my previous 2 GSDs....as I learned the ropes along the way. I know some of this could be interpreted as a sweeping generalization suggesting a WGSL has more potential than an ASL with respect to "intelligence"...

But you are not comparing apples to apples.
American show lines and WGSL's have entirely different genetics being virtually 2 distinct breeds with no common ancestry for what ? 30 to 40 years in some cases.

What would have been a better comparison would have been imported WGSL's from DOMESTIC bred WGSL"s -- same genetics . 
Same would go if comparing imported WGworkingL's to North American "domstic" bred working lines .

There are some very good dogs here .

If you were to examine canine intelligence you would have to consider that intelligence useful for the canine from the canine's perspective . Traits useful for survival skills.
Read some research which suggested that dogs with innate , strong instinctive natural tracking skills had more canine-smarts . That didn't mean it could reflect on trainability for our uses though.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I am a beginner here to learn, not an expert by any stretch. Inga is the first dog I've ever really trained.* Sight hounds do not need to be trained. *They just lie on a pillow then disappear with you and your horse at forty mph. But this GSD female is just crackling with intelligence and eager to please like no other I have ever known. So I started to research this in her pedigree. It seems to me that bloodlines of dogs that had to be titled in some kind of a skill in order to be used for breeding- thats got to have something to do with intelligence and trainability. Also, the nerves. The schutzhuds had to have guns shot off next to them in order to pass.Could this have something to do with the fearlessness and unflappability I see in my dog? I think it does.


Hm ... honestly as they said those who live in glass house should not throw stones! But by and large ... most tend to think "Boxers" are dumb as bricks. 

That is pretty much what I've heard of "Sighthounds" as a group "specifically" "No Recall??" And if off leash they must "all ways" be in a confined area! Personally ... I end to think that's crap ... if it's got four feet and a tail ... it can be trained! So to "state" that* "Sighthounds don't need to be trained??" *Strikes me as a bit much?? Heck I have no shortage of friends and neighbors that are fully capable of "not training a dog!" 

Two that come immediately to mind have 40 acres and there training consist of "opening the door in the morning" to let the dogs out and "opening it in the evening" I suppose when the dogs "chose to come home" ... "Herder Dogs??" 

I tend to belive ... my friends that are more than fully capable of "not training there dog" if they had a sighthound ... would never see it again ... if they did that ... am I missing something???


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

carmspack said:


> But you are not comparing apples to apples.
> American show lines and WGSL's have entirely different genetics being virtually 2 distinct breeds with no common ancestry for what ? 30 to 40 years in some cases.


I can't disagree with the " you are not comparing apples to apples.".......I went back and reviewed the pedigrees on my past 2 ASLs and it is as you suggested....no common ancestry...until the early 1970's....which would have been close to 30 years when I acquired my first ASL.


SuperG


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Hm ... honestly as they said those who live in glass house should not throw stones! But by and large ... most tend to think "Boxers" are dumb as bricks.
> 
> That is pretty much what I've heard of "Sighthounds" as a group "specifically" "No Recall??" And if off leash they must "all ways" be in a confined area! Personally ... I end to think that's crap ... if it's got four feet and a tail ... it can be trained! So to "state" that* "Sighthounds don't need to be trained??" *Strikes me as a bit much?? Heck I have no shortage of friends and neighbors that are fully capable of "not training a dog!"
> 
> ...


 This confined area sighthound business is crap put out by greyhound rescue people. Dogs off the track are not bonded with the people who adopted them. So they won't let a dog be adopted by anyone who does not have a fenced yard. Of course sighthounds have recall and I never had to train mine. What I did have to do with city dogs is to flick them with a longe whip as I rode because they would gallop right in front of a running horses legs. A wreck like that could get all of our necks broken. Sighthounds, if you have never had one, are extremely soft dogs. My previous dogs:

A Greyhound /German Shepherd cross . First dog of my own. He was stripped like a tiger with huge luminous eyes and his ears stood up like an Egyptian god. Very soft, timid dog.
A half Russian wolfhound/ White German Shepherd, a gentle but muscular bitch but who could run with great power.
A pure Russian Wolfhound name Ivan putski.
A greyhound I raised that was not off the track
Another greyhound I raised, not off the track
Four Whippets in a row. Once I found this breed I stayed with them. It is like having a polite and gentle sighthound but not like having a pony in the house. 

I never trained any of these dogs, didn't need to. Not much was expected of them in addition, compared to GSD they are not too smart.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I never trained any of these dogs, didn't need to. Not much was expected of them in addition, compared to GSD they are not too smart.


I am a little confused on what you mean by the sighthounds didn't need to be trained vs the GSD does due to the GSD being smart, or am I just misunderstanding your comment?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Yes. I expect a lot more from a working breed with a high IQ.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> This confined area sighthound business is crap put out by greyhound rescue people. Dogs off the track are not bonded with the people who adopted them. So they won't let a dog be adopted by anyone who does not have a fenced yard. Of course sighthounds have recall and I never had to train mine. What I did have to do with city dogs is to flick them with a longe whip as I rode because they would gallop right in front of a running horses legs. A wreck like that could get all of our necks broken. Sighthounds, if you have never had one, are extremely soft dogs. My previous dogs:
> 
> A Greyhound /German Shepherd cross . First dog of my own. He was stripped like a tiger with huge luminous eyes and his ears stood up like an Egyptian god. Very soft, timid dog.
> A half Russian wolfhound/ White German Shepherd, a gentle but muscular bitch but who could run with great power.
> ...


LOL "asked and answered!" Sighthounds are not my thing but "clearly" they are yours! Good enough and now I have a leg up if one of them happens to cross my path and is need of help.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Hmmm. I never in a million years would've had any of my Italian Greyhounds off leash outside. I don't know anyone in IGs that would. Not all the sighthounds are alike. Iggies are very flighty.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

dogfaeries said:


> Hmmm. I never in a million years would've had any of my Italian Greyhounds off leash outside. I don't know anyone in IGs that would. Not all the sighthounds are alike. Iggies are very flighty.


There's always an exception. My gf's Iggy was a great off leash dog.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

He is the exception! 
I've been around a hundred of them over the years. And yes there are iggies with advanced obedience titles. They love to chase to much for me to ever trust one loose outside.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I think GSD crossed with large sighthounds is an excellent cross. It makes the most beautiful 'prick eared cur' I have ever seen. The beauty, speed and power, the beautiful form, upright ears and great luminous eyes. They are not as soft natured as the greyhounds. In fact, I have considered breeding Inga to one of the dogs at a local racing kennel. But..... naw....I'll get her spayed after her second heat.

In the olden days people used to hunt on horseback with packs of greyhounds to run game til it turned at bay. But the greyhounds were too light to pull game down. So they kept dogs called Lurchers, greyhounds crossed with "herding breeds", who would then catch up and bring the game down. 

Jeez, all we did was chase rabbits . Those Italian greyhounds are dear, quivery little dogs but their legs are like toothpicks. When I am an old lady and a big dog might knock me down and break a hip, thats what I'll have.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is your lurcher combination 
" GSD crossed with large sighthounds is an excellent cross."


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I can't disagree with the " you are not comparing apples to apples.".......I went back and reviewed the pedigrees on my past 2 ASLs and it is as you suggested....no common ancestry...until the early 1970's....which would have been close to 30 years when I acquired my first ASL.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Some ASL breeders are bringing WGSLs into their programs. I'm pretty new to the breed but really like the results of these crosses, based on the dogs I've met/seen. I find it exciting that these crosses are happening.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

carmspack said:


> there is your lurcher combination
> " GSD crossed with large sighthounds is an excellent cross."


 Exactly.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> Some ASL breeders are bringing WGSLs into their programs. I'm pretty new to the breed but really like the results of these crosses, based on the dogs I've met/seen. I find it exciting that these crosses are happening.


Why did they stop ???


SuperG


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

WateryTart said:


> Some ASL breeders are bringing WGSLs into their programs. I'm pretty new to the breed but really like the results of these crosses, based on the dogs I've met/seen. I find it exciting that these crosses are happening.


I'm not. I knew an ASL breeder who crossed lines. She got one good litter. She decided to go with a higher level WGSL and with two OFA certified parents, got one litter after another with dysplasia. She quit breeding them after two years because so many dogs were returned. When you cross lines you don't necessarily get the best of both lines.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

SuperG - There are past present and current American showlines breeders that use West german show lines in their breeding program and there are American showlines that do not. I surmise it is what they are looking or need to achieve in their lines.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

WateryTart, carmspack or anyone else.......

I'm a rank beginner when it comes to pedigrees, lines and the evolution of the GSD......so help me out here.

The pedigree for Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan seems to indicate that the last SV (SZ) registered blood was introduced 3 generations previous with Gauß vom Stauderpark on the dam's side......was Gauß vom Stauderpark considered a WGSL?????

Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan


SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I would say west German show lines with some working back there. I'm learning to though. So interested for more info. I diasagree comparing different lines to apples and oranges but more like a gala Apple to a Macintosh apples or to a red delicious apple. I would say comparing my chihuahua and gsds are comparing apples to kiwis.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jenny720 said:


> I diasagree comparing different lines to apples and oranges but more like a gala Apple to a Macintosh apples or to a red delicious apple. I would say comparing my chihuahua and gsds are comparing apples to kiwis.


I think it depends on the degree of the difference...especially if it is consistently significant within a line........I can appreciate the apples to oranges in that regard........but....after that.....based on just 2 previous ASLs and current WGSL....there are so many other qualities they exhibit which regardless of the line.....since they're all GSDs......those differences are more as you suggest...a gala to a Mac......


SuperG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

SuperG said:


> WateryTart, carmspack or anyone else.......
> 
> I'm a rank beginner when it comes to pedigrees, lines and the evolution of the GSD......so help me out here.
> 
> ...



answer is NO . en o NO . 
This is still the era of no split . Bernd and Bodo Lierberg. Marko Cellerland and progeny.
Canto Wienerau - the Wienerau and Arminius effected changes are just happening . The era of Canto -- the split of interests and priorities --- and you have the split, which will never mend.

Gaus is a resource of OLD blood herding lines. 
Valet Busecker Schloss!

Manhatten was a pretty boy. Not working. Don't believe he produced .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm more of the mindset to stick with the apples to oranges .
They are both round. They are both fruit . They are both seasonal, tasty and could be good for you .

BUT -- they are not interchangeable in a recipe . That's sort of how it is in the breed .


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well if we are going to ask simple questions ... what is a WGSL??? I "assumed" a (German) SL GSD crossed with a WL GSD?? So are German shown lines different, than ASL?? So a ASL/WL ... cross is that a think???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

carmspack said:


> answer is NO . en o NO .
> This is still the era of no split . Bernd and Bodo Lierberg. Marko Cellerland and progeny.
> Canto Wienerau - the Wienerau and Arminius effected changes are just happening . The era of Canto -- the split of interests and priorities --- and you have the split, which will never mend.
> 
> ...


Busecker Schloss is old herding lines?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

A WGSL is a West German Show Line. A WGWL is a West German Working Line dog. A WGSL is not a dog mixed with WL dogs, post "split" as Carmspack correctly mentions. Just as there is not a "WL OS GSD." Adding OS to the description really does nothing but add confusion.

When someone says they have a WGSL dog I have a very good idea of what the dog is based on my experience with GSD's and pedigrees, same with a WL dog. 

I also agree that mixing lines can have some bad results. Many ASL dogs lack the nerve strength to handle what a WL dog brings. Back in the late 90's even the drive of the WGSL dogs was often too much to be bred into ASL dogs. Often the resulting dogs would have more drive than their nerves could handle, resulting in poor temperaments, sharp dogs with low thresholds to handle the drive and aggression.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> A WGSL is a West German Show Line. A WGWL is a West German Working Line dog. A WGSL is not a dog mixed with WL dogs, post "split" as Carmspack correctly mentions. Just as there is not a "WL OS GSD." Adding OS to the description really does nothing but add confusion.
> 
> When someone says they have a WGSL dog I have a very good idea of what the dog is based on my experience with GSD's and pedigrees, same with a WL dog.
> 
> I also agree that mixing lines can have some bad results. Many ASL dogs lack the nerve strength to handle what a WL dog brings. Back in the late 90's even the drive of the WGSL dogs was often too much to be bred into ASL dogs. Often the resulting dogs would have more drive than their nerves could handle, resulting in poor temperaments, sharp dogs with low thresholds to handle the drive and aggression.


I kinda get most of it but "my" dog is a "WL GSD" and he is "112" lbs "now" he was "116" back in the day when he "copped" an "attitude!"

My "WL GSD" is pretty clearly not to spec! And I know there are a few 95+ WL dogs out here as I have heard from them. My BIL has two GSD most likely SL as they were at his wedding running around and just having a "good old time mingling with people! Pretty much just like my "Boxer" would have. I was stunned but I also noted that his dogs were "small??" They looked "Coyote" size and my dog more resembled a "Wolf" and I have been asked that question.  

His background is a complete mystery to me as the head of rescue just ... said ... "here he needs a forster and he is from a "Breeder??" OK "BYB" no big deal whatever. But apparently "Rocky" aka "Phoenix" was seen by someone on the "East Coast" back in the day??? 

As I say ... "I" do the breed a service by "not recommending" them ... most likely my BIL does recommend them?? On the other hand ... I "feel" I can't rightly say he is a "WL GSD" and let it go at that. I'll not responsible for recommending a WL GSD to someone and having them wonder why there dog is so small?? It's a small town and lots of folks know "Rocky." 

And no ... I have no issue with the "specs" I'd most certainly not want to have to lift my guy ... although I do! I'd most certainly not want to be having to routinely muscle around "112" lbs of WL GSD on a daily basics ... as you know the Military just flat switched to "Mals" and one of the specs I saw was ..."77lbs." 

But I'm a pet person so you know weight is not a factor, and the many in "Dayton NV" that we have spoken with understand that my "WL GSD" is "not to spec" these days are out there. 

But hey ... "I'm" pretty reluctant to recommend "Boxers" also! A pretty "hair pulling experiance" to be found there for most folks. 

At anyrate a WG Sl and an ASL are not the same dogs?? That makes sense as an AL Boxer and a Euro/German Boxer or not the same dogs ... similar but different! I tried to find a single AL K9 Boxer got close but that dog was tired! 

But with a tip from here ... I did find "Cliff!"
:Cliff vom Grand Kevin

Most likely ...Sl Euro Boxers are also different?? Don't know if there is "actually" such a thing ... no one says?? But back on pointe I can't see how I can simple say "my dog is a "WL GSD" and let it go at that???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> But back on pointe I can't see how I can simple say "my dog is a "WL GSD" and let it go at that???


My four adult WL GSDs are oversized as is the WGSL. So far the puppy is on target for being mid sized. I find nothing hard or misleading by referring to any of them as simply WL GSDs or a WGSL, respectively. There really is nothing complicated about it.

Chip, I would really love to see some pictures of your dog, especially standing up. You talk so much about him, I think it is only fair for you to supply pictures so the rest of us can have a good visual of your interpretation of an OS WL GSD. :smile2:


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

carmspack said:


> the Wienerau and Arminius effected changes are just happening .


As previously mentioned......I know very little about the evolution of the GSD....much less the particulars.

I looked at the 7 generation pedigree of my WGSL bitch and the Wienerau and Arminius names appeared 79 times in that time frame.......42 times on the dam's side and 37 on the sire's side.

I didn't investigate the frequency of other names .........but those two kennel names obviously were very popular......almost like a dynasty....why?


SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Im not denying showlines are different then working lines. I had a working line loved him and yes he was different from my asl and wgsl but I still can not say American lines are entirely a different breed,as so many often say their name should be changed is just rubbish. I do like the part in carmspack response - " they are all good for you" I completely agree. I do like that they are different-different strokes for different folks. I had always thought mixing lines as per my asl breeder said many breeders tried this in the past and did produce aggressive dogs due to what slamdunc said imbalance of drive and nerve. Coming to this forum though i do see they are a few people who have mixed lines and are happy with them. When I was looking for my pup, I found many highly recommended breeders that when done carefully with much experience is possible to produce a nice dog when mixing the right dogs together within different lines which is sure more easier said then done but can be done.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Technically, they are all the same breed. They have the same foundation of breeding. To a definitive point in time. Genetically, at this time in history, they are a different breed.
https://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/german-shepherd-lines-are-genetically-different.pdf










I would suspect that mixed bag would include backyard breeders, where the pedigree is a mish mash of lines and the dogs could appear, in conformation or color, more like one specific line than another without really fitting the standards of the breed or the ideology of the specific line. That's really the case of people that have no ideas the lines and feel they need a label on their dogs to make themselves feel justified. Personally, I'm happy to just refer Jax as a monkey.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Technically, they are all the same breed. They have the same foundation of breeding. To a definitive point in time. Genetically, at this time in history, they are a different breed.
> https://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/german-shepherd-lines-are-genetically-different.pdf
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks good article!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Busecker Schloss is old herding lines?


Oh my yes .

Significant "breed-making" OLD blood foundational , practical (not trialing or hobby fun)
real working genetics.

Valet -- early descendant of Claudius Hain who with Junker Nassau represented the Wurttemberger 
herding/guarding source of active aggression - genetics. 
Valet brings Hain, Forellenbach and von burg Fasanental , and Blasienberg .+ + + 
Plus Valet had Faust who was destroyed - a war victim --- . For the rest of his days Alfred Hahn tried to recreate what to him was his best dog.

Check out Seffe v Busecker Schloss Seffe vom Busecker Schloß

my program marries this to Marko and early Kirschental lines . Racker Itztal.

S M A R T thinking dogs.

The American bred , domestic north American bred dogs were good. 
Covy Tucker Hill and Strickland had sound , strong working dogs in their lines.

as Marlon Brando said "could have been a contender"

now there are so many years apart -- with the accumulative effects of selection and priorities it would be pretty hard to go back --


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Technically, they are all the same breed. They have the same foundation of breeding. To a definitive point in time. Genetically, at this time in history, they are a different breed.
> https://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/german-shepherd-lines-are-genetically-different.pdf
> 
> 
> ...



Good article! I have a couple of mish mashers. I went about the search for my first German shepherd(s) haphazardly. I'm very happy with them, but I would like to understand exactly what I'm looking at as far as traits go and which lines tend to produce them. Hopefully it will help me make more clear decisions in the future.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

SuperG said:


> As previously mentioned......I know very little about the evolution of the GSD....much less the particulars.
> 
> I looked at the 7 generation pedigree of my WGSL bitch and the Wienerau and Arminius names appeared 79 times in that time frame.......42 times on the dam's side and 37 on the sire's side.
> 
> ...


The "Iceberg breeders" thread discusses this.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The link-http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My four adult WL GSDs are oversized as is the WGSL. So far the puppy is on target for being mid sized. I find nothing hard or misleading by referring to any of them as simply WL GSDs or a WGSL, respectively. There really is nothing complicated about it.
> 
> Chip, I would really love to see some pictures of your dog, especially standing up. You talk so much about him, I think it is only fair for you to supply pictures so the rest of us can have a good visual of your interpretation of an OS WL GSD. :smile2:


A reasonable request I suppose.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> A reasonable request I suppose.


I am certainly not asking for something I have not requested of others or provided myself.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Nigel and Jenny720.......thanks for the direction and link....interesting read.

It seems fairly prevalent in the dog breeding business......that hindsight is 20/20......I wonder if breeders in the future will look back and say the same about today's breeding practices?....I wouldn't be surprised.

Seems to me....there just aren't many breeds that remain stagnant as time progresses........whether it is "better" or usually worse.


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am certainly not asking for something I have not requested of others or provided myself.


Maybe Chip18 doesn't even have a dog?????:grin2:


SuperG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote Jenny "so many often say their name should be changed is just rubbish."

well not really. You are aware that the SV wanted to have a name change? 
The American GSDCofA fought hard to continue using the GSD name.
Their are 3 distinct and separate breeds as per the requirements of what defines breed.
American bred GSDCofA type -- WGshowL's and "working lines" 

If I were to create a super-dog combination I would have to have several generations breeding true to a type .That is what has happened over the last 40 years . 

Put your best representative of each "group" in a line and the difference will be glaring.

Jenny said "the part in carmspack response - " they are all good for you" 

But I did not say that . I did say COULD , and importantly stated that they are not interchangeable. It depends upon your needs .

"tasty and could be good for you .BUT -- they are not interchangeable in a recipe . That's sort of how it is in the breed "

If I need specifics to fulfil the function of an apple then I have to choose from the bushel of apples .
Choosing an orange won't make a good pie. 

If I had to choose a dog to work my best efforts and chance for success would be to find a breeder who puts this as a priority , which includes FUNCTIONAL conformation, then look deeper to evaluate a particular dog.
It makes total sense to choose working line . Less time lost on washouts .

If I were looking for a flashy black and red --- they are abundant in the wGshowL's . How many would I have to evaluate to find the one. 

American show lines --- same as above . I dare say with the clubs that I have belonged to , including French ring , I have seen some better "american" dogs perform quite well . When you find one with drive . That is the problem -- the drive . The WGshowL's in my experience seem confused -- drive without nerve .


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Super G- Agreed:smile2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Maybe Chip18 doesn't even have a dog?????:grin2:
> 
> 
> SuperG


LOL ... you kill me!!! Fortunately ... I was not taking a drink when I read that!! :laugh2:

It is "a reasonable request" ... and I did not think those were fighting words??? It's simply in conflict with my tendency to "procrastinate!"


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... you kill me!!! Fortunately ... I was not taking a drink when I read that!! :laugh2:
> 
> It is "a reasonable request" ... and I did not think those were fighting words??? It's simply in conflict with my tendency to "procrastinate!"


Them thar's fightin' words! 

Put up or shut up! :smile2:


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Wouldn't changing the name of a GSD to three unique ones......just help accelerate the current dilemma?? This uber GSD of yesteryear is scattered throughout all the variations today......but I'm just shooting from the hip.


SuperGuesser


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Carmspack- Yes absolute rubbish trying to take the asl's name away and wonder how much time was wasted. I'm glad they fought and no doubt won. There are good dogs and every line and room for improvement in all lines as there are breeders doing their part and others that are not. We should all strive for balance in this world a super dog may be testing those limits.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Wouldn't changing the name of a GSD to three unique ones......just help accelerate the current dilemma?? This uber GSD of yesteryear is scattered throughout all the variations today ...but I'm just shooting from the hip.
> 
> 
> SuperGuesser


Hey I'm a "Hip Shooter!" And personally, I think it could be better for the "breed" to split. At the very least "WL" owners could not keep blaming "Pet Peoples" crave for "freakishly OS WL GSD's" for destroying the WL dogs. 

In theory people would better understand what to expect. Although our latest SL GSD seemed to be a particular "fail" for it's owners expectations ... so there is that. Boxers are easier "Athletic and Goofy" or "Brawny and a lot less Goofy." I like my "Boxers Goofy" and my "GSD's" big ... being a "pet" has no size restrictions!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Them thar's fightin' words!
> 
> Put up or shut up! :smile2:


LOL naw ... apparently " fighting words are" "Pictures or it did not happen???" A newbie on "Boxerforum" had a freaking cow over that one?? Someone else said it ... a pretty common phrase ... I thought??The guy "had to have been male??" As he had a freaking cow???" I did my best to explain it's a "pretty common phrase," no one is "implying" you don't have a dog??? Heck when I joined there ... my "Struddell" was recently gone from me. SO no "Boxer" at hand. 

But there was no doubt she existed ... as the saying goes "You can't make this crap up!" 

But nope "me" I'm simply lazy ... pretty much that simple.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you misunderstand me when you said "Carmspack- Yes absolute rubbish trying to take the asl's name away and wonder how much time was wasted."

I am on the other side . I do think the name should have been changed somewhat to reflect the departure .

as Chip says "In theory people would better understand what to expect"

how many websites quote the virtually cliche von Stephanitz "keep my dog a working dog"
and haven't had a dog represented in "work" or obedience or sport or anything that evaluates and
GRADES a dogs ability to work. Not for generations .


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> Carmspack- Yes absolute rubbish trying to take the asl's name away and wonder how much time was wasted. I'm glad they fought and no doubt won. There are good dogs and every line and room for improvement in all lines as there are breeders doing their part and others that are not. We should all strive for balance in this world a super dog may be testing those limits.


I tend to agree but I gotta say ... I like dog's that test the limits!!

Breed descriptions are at best a "guideline" as I view it??? They give you a "general description" of what to expect?? A "breeder's" recommendation "I" would assume are based on there "experiance" and what they belive ... "that particular puppy will be like??" But you know ... it's a living creature and there are no guarantees! 

Best advise is to "roll" with what you get, if it is indeed a "sound dog" then it's a "sound dog" but sometimes ... it could take more effort than expected to bring that out.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

He


LuvShepherds said:


> I'm not. I knew an ASL breeder who crossed lines. She got one good litter. She decided to go with a higher level WGSL and with two OFA certified parents, got one litter after another with dysplasia. She quit breeding them after two years because so many dogs were returned. When you cross lines you don't necessarily get the best of both lines.


You just can't throw dogs together because both individual parents have nice dogs behind them. The lines themselves have to be compatible. And so do the two individual dogs.

This is where you really have to understand your bloodlines and genetics. 

And then there is the real wild card--what will two individual dogs produce together? It's always something of a crapshoot the first time around.

I can't see how crossing lines could possibly work other than a few flukes here and there. Where is the bloodline compatibility? Where is the predictability? Seems to me that you're going to get a lot of muddling.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL naw ... apparently " fighting words are" "Pictures or it did not happen???" A newbie on "Boxerforum" had a freaking cow over that one?? Someone else said it ... a pretty common phrase ... I thought??The guy "had to have been male??" As he had a freaking cow???" I did my best to explain it's a "pretty common phrase," no one is "implying" you don't have a dog??? Heck when I joined there ... my "Struddell" was recently gone from me. SO no "Boxer" at hand.
> 
> But there was no doubt she existed ... as the saying goes "You can't make this crap up!"
> 
> But nope "me" I'm simply lazy ... pretty much that simple.


Your phone or laptop don't take pictures? Heck you are a procrastinator. Way past time to upgrade!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Wouldn't changing the name of a GSD to three unique ones......just help accelerate the current dilemma?? This uber GSD of yesteryear is scattered throughout all the variations today......but I'm just shooting from the hip.
> 
> 
> SuperGuesser


It didn't seem to mess up the Belgian Shepherds....as much of the world appreciates 4 different breeds rather than 4 variations.......

Yes......I can argue either side of the fence.....usually......


SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your phone or laptop don't take pictures? Heck you are a procrastinator. Way past time to upgrade!


Phone does ... most likely the lap does also but that's not practical. But yeah the phone then I have to transfer the photos using a USB cable or Bluetooth link?? Then I have to upload and then post ... sigh too much work. 

To be honest, I did finally take a clip of him in his "Walking Wheels" in the snow. (Wobble Dog) he does not need it "per se" but it helps and he seems to like ... despite the fact that he will out of the blue and go turtle on me!!! Freaking ticks me off as he can go over some rough terrain in it! But he "still persistent" in doing stupid crap and going over out of the "Blue??" But know he does not care ... he just waits for me to upright him and off we go! Kinda like ... whatever ... this is what we do. :crazy:

He used to trot when he had "Struddell" in order to keep up with her, but when he lost her ... he no longer does?? He sticks within 10 to 15 feet of me all the time! I stop he stops .... I was not expecting that to happen so that sucks! So I have that ... but you know that was not the request as "specified." >


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Phone does ... most likely the lap does also but that's not practical. But yeah the phone then I have to transfer the photos using a USB cable or Bluetooth link?? Then I have to upload and then post ... sigh too much work.
> 
> To be honest, I did finally take a clip of him in his "Walking Wheels" in the snow. (Wobble Dog) he does not need it "per se" but it helps and he seems to like ... despite the fact that he will out of the blue and go turtle on me!!! Freaking ticks me off as he can go over some rough terrain in it! But he "still persistent" in doing stupid crap and going over out of the "Blue??" But know he does not care ... he just waits for me to upright him and off we go! Kinda like ... whatever ... this is what we do. :crazy:
> 
> He used to trot when he had "Struddell" in order to keep up with her, but when he lost her ... he no longer does?? He sticks within 10 to 15 feet of me all the time! I stop he stops .... I was not expecting that to happen so that sucks! So I have that ... but you know that was not the request as "specified." >


Let's not split dog hairs. You don't own a USB cord? You don't have bluetooth?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Let's not split dog hairs. You don't own a USB cord? You don't have bluetooth?


LOL ... you just don't get ... it's not a lack of technology ... it's a lack of will. Most likely ... your to use to "GSD think??" 

It's not that hard (post pictures) so ... what's the big deal??? But you know I'm a "Boxer" guy and "silly stuff" like this is what they do! Certain dogs have an appeal to us for a reason?? I mean c'mon ... "everybody does it" so ... what's the issue here ?? It doesn't make sense???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

There is no issue. Why does there have to be an issue? All I asked is to see pictures of your dog. You have seen mine posted and those of others. That is one of the things people do on here. I am not disputing that you own a WL GSD. :shrug:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is no issue. Why does there have to be an issue? All I asked is to see pictures of your dog. You have seen mine posted and those of others. That is one of the things people do on here. I am not disputing that you own a WL GSD. :shrug:


LOL ... nope "this is a fail" you just don't get it. I did explain ... my admittedly pretty lame reason, but your "assuming" I think ... that it must be something "deeper??" 

A quote I read before I got my first "Boxer" was from a LE Trainer of K9's and he stated he can train 3 GSD's in the same amount of time it takes him to train one "Boxer!" I can't find it anymore to cite it directly but I ... took it to heart. Now you understand what he was talking about ... I think?? "This" (stubborn resistance) makes no sense???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A little off topic, but don't you think people do the same thing when they try to be everything to a dog? They teach the dog to ignore other people, dogs, cats, you name it. No second dog, no puppy play during puppy classes, no dog parks, no meeting and greeting friendly dogs they encounter, etc.


Hmmm ... I think the "general "assumption" here is that dogs that "don't do "or" have those things" lead some sort of "sad, listless, lonely existence???" 


All my dogs are/were quite content and happy and my "White Boxer" Struddell ... was well ... over the top of course with "happy" ... her "business was having fun and chasing bunnies" and as they say ..."business was good!" (note (bunnies) in the desert ... on command and depending on the rabbits direction, it was a yes or no, one rabbit ran the wrong way "once" ... lesson learned!)

Off leash in the desert in the heat at "Boxer Speed" she never caught one but it was a fantastic site to watch her try!! Her world revolved around "Daddy" even still she luv'd people! So much so that I came up with the "on the Lawn" thing to ensure she would not drive or walk off with a stranger! "I'd luv to go with you but you know ... "Daddy" says ..."on the lawn" front yard deal.

But others that chose not to "Dog Park" have there reasons and "No" not every "Dog Park" is fraught with danger. But good advise for people is "I" feel just say no! You don't know what kind of "Dog" owning "Tool" is going to be there?? And some of them just don't care if they make there dogs problems ... your problem.

I myself have "zero" interest in breaking up a dog fight and going to court! If a another dog came after one my boys and I had to break it up ... I might be able to remain "rational??" But if another dog laid a "tooth" on my girl ... all bets are off! I'd get that dog off my girl ... and I'd go after that owner! It's best for all involved that I just said "NO" to "Dog Parks!" My thing is "no dog touches my dog with intent to do harm ... without getting past me first!"

I've had more challengers with "Rocky" for some reason than I did with my other guys?? But whatever ... they don't get to him. But as you pointed out to me ... and made me aware of "encounters" happened close to home ... yep ... sure enough????

Still I view "Dog Parks" as deliberately putting your dog in harm's way. If crap then happens ... well you made a choice to be there ... don't cop an attitude! That for me would be in direct conflict with my "core principle." "No Dog I Do Not Know" touches mine with intent to do them harm. It's not my job to read a dog's intent ... it's my job to protect my dogs ... and I am very good at my job! Others are of course ... free to do as they see fit ... they won't have any issues with "my" dogs. At a "Dog Park" cause mine aren't there. 

But ... I'm not disagreeing that dogs can't have fun playing together ... as I saw it, when my dogs and strays "under my control" got to play together with "unknown dogs" for the first times in there lives ever they had a great time! And yes ... it did make me a little sad that I had "deprived" them of that for all those years! 

But way back when ... I knew nothing except that my "Band Dawg" was a clear and present danger to other dogs! And it was best for all ... if I just stayed clear of "Dog Parks." And me being sad or not about the good time my dogs had when they did get to (finally) play with other dogs ... they had still been happy all there lives. So I did my job ... and kept them safe ... good enough.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... nope "this is a fail" you just don't get it. I did explain ... my admittedly pretty lame reason, but your "assuming" I think ... that it must be something "deeper??"
> 
> A quote I read before I got my first "Boxer" was from a LE Trainer of K9's and he stated he can train 3 GSD's in the same amount of time it takes him to train one "Boxer!" I can't find it anymore to cite it directly but I ... took it to heart. Now you understand what he was talking about ... I think?? "This" (stubborn resistance) makes no sense???


Uh.. your words, not mine:

" I mean c'mon ... "everybody does it" so ... *what's the issue here ??* It doesn't make sense???"


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm ... I think the "general "assumption" here is that dogs that "don't do "or" have those things" lead some sort of "sad, listless, lonely existence???"
> 
> 
> All my dogs are/were quite content and happy and my "White Boxer" Struddell ... was well ... over the top of course with "happy" ... her "business was having fun and chasing bunnies" and as they say ..."business was good!" (note (bunnies) in the desert ... on command and depending on the rabbits direction, it was a yes or no, one rabbit ran the wrong way "once" ... lesson learned!)
> ...


And where did I say this on this thread?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> And where did I say this on this thread?


Gezz you just can't take a compliment or what??? It was a "credit" not a "criticism???"

Put in my usual fashion ... "everybody that already knows "most attacks" occur near home ... raise your hands!" It was news to me?? I only became aware of that reality when you asked me in another "Dog Park" thread ... where had my problems occurred (or words to that effect.) And I was ..."stunned??" Since I had in fact had issues and I don't do "Dog Parks??" So yeah "obviously" I'd had problems somewhere???

And ... current attempts now is at 14. Stupid freaking ****zu Tzu darted across the freaking street this time, a few days ago Rocky could care less ... I was not amused!! Those freaking dogs are fast but he stopped when he got closer than he expected!! Dogs a freaking "PIA" ... he is why we were across the street! 

At anyrate ... take the compliment, not everything is an "attack" on you?? And sorry if I have a "habit" of paying attention when people say something important or new to me and I bring it back.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Uh.. your words, not mine:
> 
> " I mean c'mon ... "everybody does it" so ... *what's the issue here ??* It doesn't make sense???"


LOL ... well yeah ... I agree with me! And yet here we are??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Gezz you just can't take a compliment or what??? It was a "credit" not a "criticism???"
> 
> Put in my usual fashion ... "everybody that already knows "most attacks" occur near home ... raise your hands!" It was news to me?? I only became aware of that reality when you asked me in another "Dog Park" thread ... where had my problems occurred (or words to that effect.) And I was ..."stunned??" Since I had in fact had issues and I don't do "Dog Parks??" So yeah "obviously" I'd had problems somewhere???
> 
> ...


I didn't even read your post to be offended because my comment was not made on this thread. Simmer down.

I guess I have to go read it now. Sigh.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Carmspack- Lol!!!!believe me I did not misunderstand you and know exactly where you stand and what side you are on. I have been on this forum for 2 years. Lol! 
I may have not been clear but my statement was misunderstood by you. "Yes" was not in agreement and indicative of your opinion but mine, as I was repeating my opinion. 
There are many American show line people that do work their dogs and compete in various venues and yes actually have real jobs, so lets not discount those as many often do. 

Super G- I'm sure the these same arguments would instill if they ever do change the name of the ASL.

Peace out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jenny720 said:


> Carmspack- Lol!!!!believe me I did not misunderstand you and know exactly where you stand and what side you are on. I have been on this forum for 2 years. Lol!
> I may have not been clear but my statement was misunderstood by you. "Yes" was not in agreement and indicative of your opinion but mine, as I was repeating my opinion.
> There are many American show line people that do work their dogs and compete in various venues and yes actually have real jobs, so lets not discount those as many often do.
> 
> ...


I would be real curious as to what your take is.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm not. I knew an ASL breeder who crossed lines. She got one good litter. She decided to go with a higher level WGSL and with two OFA certified parents, got one litter after another with dysplasia. She quit breeding them after two years because so many dogs were returned. When you cross lines you don't necessarily get the best of both lines.


The results I've seen have been really wonderful dogs. Healthy, too. I've gotten the distinct impression that you MUST know what you are doing and which German lines to bring in, and I don't know enough to speak to specifics of that.

In the interest of full disclosure, my dog is the result of one of those crosses. One of her parents is half WGSL. I've been nothing but happy with her temperament, health, and intelligence. Other dogs I've known and trained with who were the results of these crosses are similar. Maybe a little higher energy than ASLs, but not necessarily.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jenny720 follow the discussion here http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/681801-fake-euro-titles-9.html


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Jenny720 follow the discussion here http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/681801-fake-euro-titles-9.html


Yes I am thanks. Can't deny false titles exist. Made a response on that thread.


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