# Czech or East German



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Are they producing red and black dogs, that resemble the German Show lines.. 

On two different occasions, some one has said to me that there black n red show line is from East German decent and another said it came from Czech?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

East Germany isn't producing anything any longer, since it doesn't exist.







There may be dogs of mixed bloodlines who resemble German show lines and have DDR back in their pedigree, but there aren't any DDR show line look alikes.

There are Czech show dogs. Or rather, dogs of German show line type and bloodline being produced by Czech kennels. But they wouldn't be considered "Czech lines" as the term is commonly understood.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Or you can find some kennels that were East German before that are still trying to breed the old DDR type dogs to keep the bloodline alive. Grafental comes to mind.

I have a DDR bloodline female, all ddr bloodlines, but there is no more DDR , but then again, same could be said for "West German" working lines. It's now Germany so technically you could get rid of the "West" part like you do the DDR. Semantics.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WOr you can find some kennels that were East German before that are still trying to breed the old DDR type dogs to keep the bloodline alive. Grafental comes to mind.


Yes, but nothing from those DDR bloodlines resembles a German show line dog. And since there is no DDR any longer, there can't be a new type of DDR dog, one that resembles a German show line, being produced. So semantics aside, the type of dog Leesa was asking about still doesn't exist.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Black and red DDR -I see mahogany but his breeder calls it red.



> Originally Posted By: Angela_WOr you can find some kennels that were East German before that are still trying to breed the old DDR type dogs to keep the bloodline alive. Grafental comes to mind.


V-Sven vom Grafental SchH3, KKL1 is Otto's great grandsire - dam's (black & red) sire's (pure black with hugest feet in the world) sire if that makes sense.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes, there are black and tan/red/whatever DDR dogs, just as the color exists in every other type of GSD. But they still don't resemble German show lines.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

No, the body type is completely different between a showline and the "typical" ddr look.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Brady is considered Black and Red DDR
Sire is Black and Red and Dam is all Black


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

No, these two dogs look identical to a german show lines.. Which had me a little confused when they said from East Germany and Czech?


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## Malinoid (Jan 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: littledmc
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Looks like a Bi-Color to me.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Blanket not a bicolor.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

When I think of german show lines, I think more fur and a sloping topline where the DDR dogs stand straight (like a box with legs)

I've met Brady and had a bi-color boy myself - Brady doesn't tar heels, pencil toes or the black down his knees, he's just very black (and more gorgeous in person). This is a bi-color DDR, sorry it's a goofy picture but it shows his tar heels and knees.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are Czech dogs that are from German showlines. These dogs are often successfully intergrated into their Czech lines, and some are maintained still as high lines. Chris, I think you have already said this......one thing I have found is that the Czech showlines tend to have stronger temperament uniformly than the German/American showlines. I don't know if that is because of early on imprinting or genetics in terms of dogs with more lines from Mutz vd Peltierferm.


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## Malinoid (Jan 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: G-burgNo, these two dogs look identical to a german show lines.. Which had me a little confused when they said from East Germany and Czech?



I agree with what Chris said earlier. For those of you who care...a short socioeconomic history lesson in regards to the GSD and the former Eastern Bloc Countries.

After, and even to some extent before, 'The Wall' cam down some traditionally working-line breeders (vom Ritterberg) switched over to showlines b/c that's where they felt they could make a buck. Remember, most folks living in Eastern Europe at the time weren't exactly well-to-do. Look at the evolution from the days of Held v Ritterberg & Whiskey v Ritterberg (1970's) to Ford Ritterberg (mid 1980's) to the post 1990 dogs of the Ritterberg Kennel.

Bottom line is, the DDR hasn't existed for almost 20 years now, so for people to continue marketing their dogs as 'DDR' is suspect at best. SchH was different in the DDR, the breeding rules/surveys were different than anything that exists formally today. The DDR lines that were worthwhile are reflected in many of what can be called the Czech working lines, and dogs like Verwin v Blitsaerd, Zorro vom Laager Wall, Lord vom Gleisdreieck, Xanto & Falk von der Gundorfer Höhe.

John Haudenshield


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

So Steve Lino isn't breeding ddr lines? (just an example) So what is he and many others like him breeding?

Boban? What kind of dog is he then?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

If a dog is predominantly DDR bloodlines or Czech bloodlines that's how I refer to them even if the wall is down.

I think the referance was to the infamous Boban dog that was sold to the States from the Netherlands. He's on his second or third owner stateside.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Actually he's in Canada now









But I was referring to John's comment: Bottom line is, the DDR hasn't existed for almost 20 years now, so for people to continue marketing their dogs as 'DDR' is suspect at best. "

I was curious as to what he considered being bred as to what to call them, as well as Boban whom I consider a "ddr" dog. I go off of bloodlines as well. If the dog is DDR blood, then to me that's DDR.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: There are Czech dogs that are from German showlines. These dogs are often successfully intergrated into their Czech lines,


Can you give me an example? 

I know Chris mentioned that there are kennels in those countries that a producing show line dogs.. but are they still german show lines.. not Czech or East German Show lines.. correct..

I am so confused!!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: G-burg
> but are they still german show lines.. not Czech or East German Show lines.. correct..


IMO, correct.

But I guess it depends on how you define nationality.

Are German show lines bred in the US American show lines? Are West German working lines, or DDR lines, or Czech lines bred in the US American working lines? Would American show lines bred in Germany (not that I think that has ever happened) be German show lines?

Most would say no. The names of the types refer to the type as a whole, and type of dog doesn't change based on where it's born.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Tika's dad was technically a Czech import but is of German Show lines. On the other hand he was really a working dog.


















I think this is the "type" of dog you are referring to.


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## Malinoid (Jan 28, 2008)

Angela,

In my opinion, East German lines - Yes. East German dogs, not until you get into the 3rd & 4th generation most times.

I'm not attempting to disparrage any breeders, I'm just stating my opinion. I don't know Steve personally, but I understand the guy to be honorable & reputable. I personally don't agree with labeling dogs 'DDR' that were born in the last 10 years, when the DDR ceased to exist 18 years ago. Again just my opinion. I like many of the attributes that the DDR dogs seemed to carry, I just don't think its accurate to label dogs of today as DDR, DDR-line maybe, but don't get carried away.

We own a full-littermate sibling to Steve's Gero v Frolich Haus. Their father Alk was born in 1992....not DDR. I consider this litter to be of predominantly DDR & Czech working *lines*....*not DDR dogs.*

Sire: Alk v Osterburg Quell - East German Working lines
Dam: Unit Gymor - Czech Working Lines, go back to the 60's & 70's it's mostly East & West German dogs.

John Haudenshield


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:Czech import but is of German Show lines


Right, so technically, he's still a german or west german show line..

I guess what I am trying to say and I think some understand.. Is there such a type of bloodline that is Czech show line or East German show line? And if so can someone post the pedigree for example..


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

John, thank you for clarifying, so it does seem that most of us are on the same page at least regarding lines vs. "dogs"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: G-burg
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> > Quote:Czech import but is of German Show lines
> ...


I'm a total noob at this but I've been looking into German show lines and it appears that yes, different kennels and countries have their own lines that you start to notice the more you get into it, but in general I hear them all referred to as "(west) German show lines" or "highlines". I suppose that would be more of the _type_, and the actual "lines" come from various dogs/kennels.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> Quote:I consider this litter to be of predominantly DDR & Czech working lines....not DDR dogs.


I don't know, to me that's kind of splitting hairs. I've never heard of anyone referring to the west german line working dog as an American Dog with W. German lines if it was born in this country.

Not a big deal to me either way!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ruq Paq gave an illustration of what I was referring to. They do have conformation shows in Czech republic and the majority of the dogs are from a German High Lines background. In some cases these dogs are in their third or fourth generation in Czech republic so they are Czech dogs by birth and High Lines by "TYPE". The same with Steve's dogs..they are East German dogs in that they have continued the breeding of the East dogs to each other without introduction of West/Czech/Show/Belgiun/etc. This is for most of his breedings as the litter with Alk had a mother from Czech descent.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.spartanville.com/intro1.html
These are what I think of when I hear of ddr/czech lines...


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