# Breeder Possibly Lied About AKC Papers?



## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Alright, so this has been itching at me since I got my puppies papers back the other day. The breeder registers all his dogs by their name with his kennel name. (This is also how Gretchen will have to be registered since I didn't get a say in her registered name, I knew I had to put the kennel name but I didn't know I had to put Gretchen Vom ______ exactly like that) Well, on the AKC papers, dads name is correct but whereas her moms name was Sheeba, the papers say Holly. 

Now, I've never had an AKC dog before and from what I understand, it's easy to register a litter under another dogs papers. Should I even worry over this? :/ I have the dog, I don't plan on returning her...I've already invested a lot into her health care that I can't get back. (Nor will he give me the money I paid for her back if I were to return her so what is the point? He'd probably just sell her off for the same price to someone else and not tell them she has problems.)

I really don't know how to approach the guy with the question about the papers. It's been hard enough getting up the nerve trying to explain to him that this dog has some problems that she CAME with. Everything is "oh well you're the first person who's ever had a problem with their dog". Which I find hard to believe if he's really been breeding for 30 years.

If I did decide to register her later with the UKC to do shows (Since she's NOT AKC materiel and I've been told she'd do better in the UKC), would this cause a problem? And another question, could he even stop me from being able to register her with another KC? Because he's already expressed that he doesn't want my dog doing ANYTHING expect protection type work and that he feels the "UKC is a joke". But it's my dog, right? What rights do I actually have to this dog besides not being able to breed her and register a litter with the AKC because she's on a limited registration? (Which I don't plan to breed her anyways, just asking)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok are you really sure that Holly is not the dam's actual registered name? A lot of folks have a dog with a particular name that they don't like so they call it somehting else.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Alright, so this has been itching at me since I got my puppies papers back the other day. The breeder registers all his dogs by their name with his kennel name. (This is also how Gretchen will have to be registered since I didn't get a say in her registered name, I knew I had to put the kennel name but I didn't know I had to put Gretchen Vom ______ exactly like that) Well, on the AKC papers, dads name is correct but whereas her moms name was Sheeba, the papers say Holly.
> 
> Now, I've never had an AKC dog before and from what I understand, it's easy to register a litter under another dogs papers. Should I even worry over this? :/ I have the dog, I don't plan on returning her...I've already invested a lot into her health care that I can't get back. (Nor will he give me the money I paid for her back if I were to return her so what is the point? He'd probably just sell her off for the same price to someone else and not tell them she has problems.)
> 
> ...



I would have him pay my vet bills and confirm the information is correct on AKC paperwork. What does his contract say about health guarantees? Don't be scared. She's your baby and you need to stand up for yourself.

Will be following your story via your blog! BEAUTIFUL baby girl you have there.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

It could be that "Sheeba" is the dog's call name and "Holly" is her registered name. But I would call the breeder to make sure it isn't an error. 

The more I hear about this breeder, the less I like him, but give him the benefit of the doubt until you talk to him about this.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

No, he registers his dogs by their call name and requires all puppies be registered in the same manner. I guess I can call and be nice about it and be like "Hey, I just wanted to make sure this wasn't an error on the papers" and just try to not act like I'm accusing him of anything. I'm sure he's already sick of hearing from me.

And he wont pay vet bills and his guarantee (Which I didn't realize until AFTER the puppy was paid for) is "signed" by a handshake and my only guarantee is another puppy if a genetic issue is found but he will NOT return any money even if I give the dog back. Yes, I'm a "n00b" at buying dogs, I made a mistake. I've only ever gotten free dogs off Craigslist or friends with the exception of Chance who I adopted from animal control in GA and paid a whole $35 for and had a written contract that any health problems were my own to deal with which I was fine with. (They were a high kill shelter and couldn't afford what private rescues can, any health problems were to be expected)

I thought I had this right, I was shown all this stuff and thought that he was a decent breeder until I actually got the dog and started to have my doubts. He's certainly not the WORST breeder out there, he really does have some nice dogs and does work them. But I feel so alone with this dog.  I love her so much though and don't want to give her up, I just want some support and not to be accused of ruining the dog when I hadn't even had her but like 3 days.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

ChancetheGSD said:


> No, he registers his dogs by their call name and requires all puppies be registered in the same manner. I guess I can call and be nice about it and be like "Hey, I just wanted to make sure this wasn't an error on the papers" and just try to not act like I'm accusing him of anything. I'm sure he's already sick of hearing from me.


This is what I would do, it's important and a quick question to boot


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What was wrong with the dog? IMO breeder shouldn't pay vet bills. The guarantee on genetic health is good. Normally a breeder requires the puppy be taken to the vet within 72 hours and if there's a problem (or a problem the buyer doesn't want to take care of), bring the puppy back. Some things are pretty common though, like worms and such. If that's what it is I wouldn't let it sour the relationship. The day after I got Pan, his breeder contacted me to let me know that one of his littermates tested positive for coccidia. There were no hard feelings, I just made sure to have a fecal done the next day and he was negative.

As far as the papers, yes you have ever right to have a straight answer about that.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I don't expect him to pay for what has gone on so far but if the heart murmur doesn't go away (Vet wants to keep a check on it and give it at least until 18 weeks before we take any more steps), he's said he wont pay for any of the testing to further figure out where it's coming from. But if it IS a heart problem, I don't want another possibly defective puppy as "payment" for my vet bills. I'm in no situation to have two German Shepherds anyways so regardless I'd be SOL.

I've been nice about everything but he has been quite rude to me over things. When I called to let him know the dog had tapeworms which he might want to check his other puppies for and to let him know that Gretchen had 2 ear infections and a heart murmur (Just to let him know so that down the line there isn't the question of "why didn't you let me know earlier", I wasn't asking anything of him except what the plan was if the murmur didn't go away but I guess that's wrong of me), he completely blew up on me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Off topic here, but has her walking improved?


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

It's getting better so I think that was just from the ear infections, scary situation nonetheless. The neuro exam only found "thickened knees" which I'm honestly not totally sure what that means. But the vet agreed it was probably from the ear infection (Which was confirmed gone in both ears! Yay!) and that when I bring her back for her next exam (Next week) they'll recheck her walking. But reflexes/feeling and all were there so they didn't think it was anything serious like Wobblers, ect.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Hmm...Question about the registration. Looking at the papers, he was suppose to sign where it says "Permission to use an AKC registered kennel name" but he didn't. Can I white out what he wrote and put in my own choice of name? :x Can he do anything about that? I could still use his kennel name, I just don't want what HE put. And even then, would they call him to confirm it's ok to use the kennel name or would they just deny the name right away because that part wasn't signed?

Also can I just say that it is complete BS that they charge $30 to register the dog and then you have to pay $16 extra to get a 3 generation pedigree? ><


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

17 states have a puppy lemon law for genetic defects


Puppy Lemon Law States

Lemon Laws for Pets


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

On the Holly vs Sheeba thing, I would suspect the same as others have said that one is the registered name and the other the call name. I don't know what you mean when you say "he registers dogs with their call names", since that sort of negates what a call name is.

No, he cannot stop you from registering with UKC or any other organization, provided she has the paperwork to do so.



ChancetheGSD said:


> Hmm...Question about the registration. Looking at the papers, he was suppose to sign where it says "Permission to use an AKC registered kennel name" but he didn't. Can I white out what he wrote and put in my own choice of name? :x Can he do anything about that?


Breeders only have to sign that area if their kennel name is actually registered with the AKC, which most are not.

As far as can you white it out and put what you want? Well, yes I suppose you *could*. The police aren't going to show up and throw you in jail if you do. However it would be completely wrong and unethical to do so. If the breeder has a naming convention and kennel name, that he filled out on the papers, that is what the dog should be registered as.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

The only time a breeder signs the "permission to use AKC registered kennel name" is when the kennel name is actually registered with AKC. Most breeders are not registered with AKC, they just have their kennel name and use it on all their puppies.
As far as crossing out what he put, a bunch of years ago, I did just that. The person had a STUPID(chicken George)name on a Doberman pup I bought. I crossed it out, put the name choice I wanted and enclosed a letter to AKC explaining why I did not want the name.
As long as he is not the co-owner of your pup, you can cross it out and rename it whatever you want. AKC only wants the money and unless his kennel name is registered with AKC, which obviously it is not, he will never know what you name the dog.
Now,if the puppy is free and clear, you can register the dog in UKC or any other kennel club you want. Unless you signed a contract stating the puppy could not be registered in another Kennel Club, don't worry about it. Truthfully, lots of folks buy limited registration puppies, register them with UKC or Continental Kennel Club and breed them... Not a good idea, but it is done all the time, which is why alot of breeders are now spaying/neutering puppies before they leave their kennel. Or charge enough for the spay/neuter and have the owners sign a contract stating they will do the surgery and get $xx back when they show proof of surgery. 
AKC is a registering body, they will not back up contracts or agreements.. They will tell you to get a lawyer. A friend of mine sold a puppy on limited registration, it had color faults so it could not be shown. Had the buyer sign a contract stating no breeding and puppy would be spayed. The buyer had a lawyer in the family, they wrote a letter to AKC requesting full registration and AKC granted full registration to the buyers. AKC will not waste time with contracts, co ownerships, etc. They will tell you to seek a lawyer.
As far as heart murmer, my first GSD had a bad heart murmer at 8 weeks. By 6 months it was gone.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

But I wasn't given a choice in what I wanted her named. :/ It's not like I want his name out of my dogs name, I just don't want her registered as "Gretchen Vom *Kennel Name*". All I want added is Ross. Gretchen Ross Vom *Kennel Name* and I'd be happy. There is already a registered Gretchen Vom *Same Kennel Name* under my last name so I don't want her to be Gretchen Vom *KN* II. Plus I've wanted at least SOME Donnie Darko reference in there to begin with. If I have to pay an extra $10 to go past the limit (Since his kennel name alone is 16 of the allowed 36 letters/spaces), I'm happy with her being Gretchen Ross at the very least. Isn't that the "fun" part of registering with a kennel club? Getting to pick a name different than the call name?

The dogs name is Holly Vom *Kennel Name*...So nothing special, why wouldn't he just call her Sheeba in her registered name if that's what he does with his other dogs?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

ChancetheGSD said:


> But I wasn't given a choice in what I wanted her named.


That is not uncommon at all. Many, many breeders pick the registered names of their pups for quite a number of very good reasons. If someone really wants to be able to pick the registered name, it is yet another thing that should be discussed with the breeder prior to committing to buying a puppy. 




ChancetheGSD said:


> The dogs name is Holly Vom *Kennel Name*...So nothing special, why wouldn't he just call her Sheeba in her registered name if that's what he does with his other dogs?


I don't think you understand the purpose of call names. The call name is the everyday name. Registered names are picked young, often before the pup is mature enough to have enough personality to decide what is a good everyday name for that particular dog. And often registered namesn have certain restrictions on them, such as a litter letter or theme. 

Sometimes the registered name works for everyday use, sometimes it just doesn't fit the dog well and the owner picks something else. Entirely possible she was named Holly as a pup because that name fit her as a pup, or maybe it was an H litter and needed an H name, but as she grew they decided she really wasn't a "Holly" and picked a different name that they liked better for everyday use. Happens all the time.

The only way to find out for sure if there is a mix-up or if the dog just has 2 names, one registered and one not, is to ask the breeder.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Just the answer I was looking for Wyominggrandma!!  I just wanted to know that he wasn't going to be able to find the dog and try to do something. Or that he could have a say in who I register the dog with outside of the AKC. Again, I have no plans on breeding but I DID want to compete with the dog. I have full ownership of the puppy, she's just on limited registration.

NO contracts of any sort were ever signed. We handed him a check and was told we'd get a health guarantee for 2 years. I expected to sign something but he gave me some crap about "In the state of NC, a handshake signs a contract".  So basically he nor I have anything that states in writing that I can't register the dog with any other club, that I can't breed and register the litter with another club (Just the AKC because her papers say limited registration), that I can't compete in anything except what he approves of, that I HAVE to register under his kennel name, ect.

And just so we're clear on the answer, he will get no confirmation from the AKC that I have registered the dog right?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Is it really that important? I would have discussed with him before you got her than after. ...... I mean if you are not breeding or showing her it, it is simply ownership paperwork that goes in a drawer. 

He may have named "Sheeba" Holly because it was an "H" litter and all dogs had to be "H" or perhaps she was not of his breeding and was named when he got her. My last 4 GSDs, I had nothing to do with the name. I did not even send in the paperwork on 2 of the 4. But I did the later ones due to proof of ownership.

Grim- weill, I would have changed his call name but he was two when I got him and it was kind of funny since he was going to be a cadaver dog so I just called him Grimmy Bear. Beau, well, I liked the name anyway.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

wyominggrandma said:


> unless his kennel name is registered with AKC, which obviously it is not, he will never know what you name the dog.


Actually, that is not true. Breeders can make an account with AKC (and no "registered kennel name" is required for that) which allows them to log into AKC and view records of any dogs that they own, used to own, co-own, or bred. Including looking up the pups from each litter, getting a list of their registered names. So he certainly could quite easily find out that the dog was not registered as it was supposed to be. Now whethere he'd bother to go find out, or would care, no one can say. But the info would not be difficult for him to find out.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> That is not uncommon at all. Many, many breeders pick the registered names of their pups for quite a number of very good reasons. If someone really wants to be able to pick the registered name, it is yet another thing that should be discussed with the breeder prior to committing to buying a puppy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He never named the puppies, *I* named her Gretchen as a call name. I had plans to register her as something else and was only asked that I put his kennel name in her registered name, not that I had to register her under her call name and his kennel. She didn't come from a letter litter, he just asked me what I was going to name her before I got her and I told him her name was going to be Gretchen. He asked in order to have a name to start calling her by so that she'd know it by the time she went home.

I'll ask him about the dam though just to see. But with his breeding style, it still doesn't quite add up.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> Actually, that is not true. Breeders can make an account with AKC (and no "registered kennel name" is required for that) which allows them to log into AKC and view records of any dogs that they own, used to own, co-own, or bred. Including looking up the pups from each litter, getting a list of their registered names. So he certainly could quite easily find out that the dog was not registered as it was supposed to be. Now whethere he'd bother to go find out, or would care, no one can say. But the info would not be difficult for him to find out.


Given that he doesn't use a computer, I doubt he does this. But still. Idk. I just don't want her call name to be her registered name. :/


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Personally I wouldn't be in a big hurry to fill out the papers at this point. I would just put them away for a few weeks and see how things flesh out. If the heart murmur goes away (which in my experience, it usually does) then I'd do the paperwork then and move on. Do you know if he has a female named Sheeba AND a female named Holly? If so, then I'd be calling him at that point and clearing that matter up, if you're not sure then I'd verify with him first before going any further. Usually the contract states the parents full AKC registered names (I say usually because mine always did and pups I've bought from others also had that in the contract).
As to naming the pup his kennel name, then that is a personal thing for you. If it is in the contract that you must, then it is a good idea for you to adhere to your end of the bargain. If it's not in the contract and he isn't living up to his end of the contract (the pup is not from the mother you were told or the health issue isn't resolved etc) then I see no reason for you not to just do as you please. I can't recall, but is this the case where you didn't actually get a written contract? I'm one of those people who will go along with a deal as made as long as the other party is living up to his end. If not, then I don't see the need to treat them ethically. This is why I wouldn't be in a big hurry to send in the paperwork. 
Also, you can register the pup now with the kennel name as he requested, and if he really irks you down the road you can always pay the $35 and change the pups name. It's a stupid thing that AKC allows it, but they do so it's an option. Of course it works the other way as well, you could register the dog with the name of your choice and if he ends up getting the dog back (which I know you said wasn't an option, I'm just playing out scenarios here) then he would have to pay the $35 to have the name changed to his kennel name if it really mattered to him.
Now having said all that, all my pups were registered as the breeder requested and one or 2 were totally named by the breeder (meaning we didn't even get the option of choosing the name part of the name ), and I was fine with that. I would never change the name of one of mine, but I have dealt with breeders whom I highly respect and have been treated wonderfully by them and so therefore have been happy to perpetuate their kennel name.

I kind of liken it to buying a car. I paid a bit more for a car that is considered a "luxury" car, but part of that is the service over the life of the car. I get "free" oil changes and always have loaner waiting for me when I have something scheduled. I know it's not really free, I paid for it in the original cost, but the great service and convenience are worth it to me. Now our truck is a basic vehicle and I paid a basic price, when I have to take it in then I deal with the inconvenience of having to sit in the waiting area or finding someone to follow me there and bring me back, etc. But do I get peeved about it, no, since I feel like with that car, I just paid for the car and everything else is my problem and my dime.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> Is it really that important? I would have discussed with him before you got her than after. ...... I mean if you are not breeding or showing her it, it is simply ownership paperwork that goes in a drawer.


I *DO* want to compete with her. That's why it's important. And again, this was my first "bought" dog, I made a mistake, I didn't know. That's why I'm asking questions so that I can first of all get her solved and second of all, if I ever went through another breeder, I'd know what to lay out before even a deposit is handed to them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

From a previous post, this seemed to be a reputable breeder but you've had nothing but issues. Have you searched to see if there are any complaints about him? Have you searched for any of his other dogs that he bred to see what they are doing sportwise?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Register her on line and use his kennel name the way you want to. 

I think that you get a lot for the little it costs to register your dog with the AKC. Most of us do not know what all they do, but I would rather they have my registration money then give to the Humane Society, ans the AKC does all sorts of things like fighting bad dog-related legislation, education, encouraging youth to learn about and work with dogs. If it was a hundred or more, or needed to be renewed each year that would be different. I like that the three generation pedigree is a separate fee, if you do not want that, you do not have to spend the money on that. But I get it for all mine. I think they do a nice job on them. 

Now, as for the health guaranty. I am with the breeder on this. Puppies are live creatures and they are not all perfect. When he sold you your puppy the dog did not have a heart murmur and did not have ear infections. Many, many ear infections are caused by yeast, and there is some schools of thought that suggest it is related to what you are feeding. So from the breeders point of view, you are probably feeding something that is causing the dog to get an ear infection. They should listen to your problem and make suggestions as to what to do, and perhaps what to feed. Personally, I think that there are lines that are pre-disposed to ear infections, and for those dogs, regularly cleaning the ears with something that dries the canal is probably the best bet. 

As for the heart murmur. I had a pup that I had to the vet two times and no sign of a murmur. I had never had a murmur found in any of my pups prior. But Maxx had one when she took the dog to the vet. She called me a couple of days after she got him, and I was shocked and really did not know if this could be possible. The vet suggested she return the puppy, but she was attached. She was being sent to a specialist, I made no offer to pay for that. But I offered to extend my 2-week money back warranty for a month on the heart condition, so that we could see how it went. I then called my vet, and they said yes it was possible for the pup to develop a murmur and most of them will go away (but not all). I called my mentor, and she told me that the pup will probably grow out of it. 

After the visit to the specialist where they did an electro-cardiogram (not cheap I am guessing), she told me that the specialist said that everything was there and looked clean, and chances are he would outgrow the murmur without any issues, and she could do whatever she wanted (performance-wise) with him. She checked him 3 weeks later and the murmur was gone.

She was clearly unwilling to return the puppy for the money back, she would only say we would talk about that, sounding like she did not want to do that. I think it was one of those instant-match-made-in-heaven things. She was making payments on the puppy, and I was being patient about them, and he was paid off before his first birthday. But she never asked for reimbursement for the money spent at the vet.

If breeders had to pay for all possible vetting that people may put their dogs through, then puppies would cost 10-20k, and only a handful of people would breed at that rate. 

Maxx has an awesome owner. I went to his obedience graduation and he is doing awesome. She has invited me to some matches she may take him to also, and if they are not on Sunday, I will definitely go. So these things can work out, and well. 

I wish your breeder was more willing to discuss the problems with you. I expect he was being defensive. If he thinks the problems are in his lines, he may feel that he needs to make serious breeding decisions. But occasional ear infections are not something I would change my breeding stock over. Heart murmurs sound a lot more serious, but if the pup grows out of it without farther issue, it may be just one of those things.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I can't find any complaints on him, everyone on the FB page (Which is all they have and is ran by kennel assistance) seems very happy with their dogs. So I'm starting to feel like I am the issue.  I'm not TRYING to be, I just want a healthy dog for what I paid and want to make sure that the parents are both correctly registered. As far as health goes, once again, I made a first buyer mistake. I just want to know my options. All I found online is 2 dogs registered under his kennel name on Pedigree Database but there wasn't much information. :/ Other than that, nothing.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

*@Selzer:*


> When he sold you your puppy the dog did not have a heart murmur and did not have ear infections.


The dogs didn't see a vet as far as I know, how was he suppose to diagnose these on his own? All he said was "puppies get dirty ears and she didn't show any signs before leaving" (Which she didn't show signs here either, the vet said her ears looked moist during her routine exam and we decided to do an ear cytology which diagnosed the infection in each ear) not "My vet didn't find one when she was here" and that "puppies get heart murmurs all the time". (Which is also the same situation where I never heard "My vet didn't find one when she was here", just that HE didn't see anything wrong with the puppy before it left.) The issue wasn't that the puppy had the murmur, I'm giving her time to out grow it before we jump to anything. But I wanted to know what those options were in the future if it does become a problem and just simply LET HIM KNOW so that it didn't become a problem down the line and then he ask me why I didn't tell him when she was first diagnosed with it. Instead of being understanding about me wanting him to know for future sake, he completely blew up on me and was a complete a$$ about it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And if the murmur does not go away, are you going to return her for a replacement?

It sounds to me like you need to get a straight answer on the parents and then walk away. You are going to drive yourself nuts with all this.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

He said he'd give me a replacement dog if a genetic issue is found and that I can keep her but what happens if THAT dog has problems too? And again, I can't afford or have another GSD where I live. So I'm completely SOL regardless so maybe I should just take your advice.



> It sounds to me like you need to get a straight answer on the parents and then walk away. You are going to drive yourself nuts with all this.


I may also take Selzers advice and just register her online.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am a little concerned though. A few things:

1. Who said she is not AKC material? At this point it is hard to be sure how she will grow out. I would not knock out her conformation because of someone's assessment. There are a couple of rings in AKC, specialty where the whole show is GSDs -- those dogs look different than the dogs you see in ALL-Breed AKC shows. Some dogs will fare better in all breed shows and some in specialty shows. I am not familiar with UKC, but I have heard that there are dogs that do better in UKC than in AKC. I am not an expert on that, and probably would not suggest it on an 18 week old puppy. Got to some puppy matches (AKC, not sure if UKC has them). You can register the day of, and don't need papers. See how she does. 

2. I am not sure you understand "limited registration." You cannot show a dog in conformation with a limited registration. If you breed her, her puppies cannot be registered AKC. Now look at the papers you received. In the area that says something about type of registration, are their numbers there in the box, or is it totally blacked out. If there are numbers, then you have full-registration. If it is blacked out than your registration is limited. If you register her with UKC, I am not sure how that works, but one of them, maybe Canadian Kennel Club, does have classes for dogs who are altered, so a limited registration would be ok there, in those classes.

3. If you want to do anything else with the dog, Agility, Rally, Herding, Schutzhund (not AKC), Tracking, Obedience, etc. You can do these with limited registration no problem.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I didn't know that limited registration meant she couldn't show either. :/ Just thought it meant I couldn't register any litters under the AKC. I was told by some people on another forum that a working line GSD like her wouldn't have a second look by a judge in the AKC and that I'd be better off spending my money/registration fees on UKC shows if I wanted to even attempt it.

Honestly, the breeder doesn't want me doing ANYTHING except Schutzhund/protection work with her. He pretty much said that's all she's good for. :/

I might just not bother with any of it and just focus on her real purpose, to become my service dog. Just thought it might be fun to actually do something social like that with her that we could both enjoy but I don't want to be pressured into anything (Which you can view in another post I'd made about being bullied into Schutzhund) and don't want to be put down for trying something new.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

ChancetheGSD said:


> But I wasn't given a choice in what I wanted her named. :/ It's not like I want his name out of my dogs name, I just don't want her registered as "Gretchen Vom *Kennel Name*". All I want added is Ross. Gretchen Ross Vom *Kennel Name* and I'd be happy.


That doesn't seem like a big deal, have you asked him about adding the name Ross into the mix?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

But she can show in performance, and if she wants, she can register the dog with UKC and get a conformation title on her that way. Not the best thing to do, but she can.
Yes, the breeder can look up the registered name of every dog he has bred on AKC if he wants, however if the OP has already named and registered the puppy, it will be too late to change the name. However, if the OP registers online, the breeder will be notified and he will need to "ok" the registration as limited or regular...If she just sends in the slip, then unless the breeder looks up the particular dog, he will not know the registered name. If the OP goes ahead and uses his kennel name as he wants, I don't see any reason why she can't name the dog whatever she wants to.
When I had new owners register my puppies, as long as my kennel name was in the registered name somewhere, I didn't care what else they used...
Now, if she was good terms with the breeder, she should be able to talk to him., However, it seems that the breeder is not very willing to work things over about anything. 
As far as AKC is concerned, she bought and paid for the dog, she no longer has to deal with the breeder at all...... She has the registration papers to register and if you look up AKC rules: 
The litter owner(s) must fill out the most of the application, including the following information:

Sex of dog
Color and markings of dog
Registration type (Full or Limited)
Transfer date
Name and address of all new owners and co-owners
Signatures of all litter owners
The new owner(s) of the dog must fill out the following:

Name of dog
Signatures of all owners and co-owners
Payment information
Registration Options (For purchasing pedigrees and DVDs)
Directly from the AKC website:The person who owns the dog at the time the application for registration is submitted to the AKC has the right to name it. Names are subject to AKC approval and the following guidelines:


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

She can show in all AKC performance events.............. Just not conformation classes.
If you register her in UKC shows, you can follow their guidelines.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

According to AKC rules, she can name the dog anything that AKC approves of and doesn't even have to use the breeders kennel name if she doesn't want to. The breeder can throw a fit,The person who owns the dog at the time the application for registration is submitted to the AKC has the right to name it. Names are subject to AKC approval. 
Truthfully, I assume if she was to contact the breeder about something health wise, she will get no help at all... There is nothing the breeder can do if she names the puppy whatever she wants to. End of story.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

The only way any breeder can know his/her puppies will be registered with his/her kennel name is to register every puppy before he/she sells them. Only then can a breeder know his/her kennel name will stay on the registration papers. Otherwise, AKC will accept a change in the name on the paperwork, they will not accept a change on the limited/regular part without contacting the breeder of record.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry Wyominggrandma, are you a breeder. So far I have been encouraging people to register their dogs on line, and never once have I had to approve ANY registration. 

When I use an outside stud, and register the litter on line, the stud-owner has to fill out their portion of the registration via the computer, but I really do not think that breeders have to approve every electronic registration. At least, I have not run into that yet, and I suppose it is possible that all of my buyers have used snail mail, though I think it highly unlikely.

The way the papers are, if you want the dog's registration to be limited, you must completely black out the numbers in the box. Then the owner will not have the numbers to fill in when then register on-line and the pup will be given an limited registration. 

AKC does not need to contact the breeder.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Yep, been breeding for 20 years.

The whole point of this is the owner has the right to name the puppy, does not have to contact the breeder, can change the name on the paperwork and the breeder doesn't have to ever know. The breeder also cannot tell the OP what she can do with the dog except the limited registration allows for not registering pups from this girl. He has no right and can't demand what she can or can't do with her dog, and is she is able to register the puppy in other registries to do conformation, then she can. Doesn't sound as if she wants to breed her anyway, just do fun things. He can't force her into Schutzund if she doesn't want to do it.
There was no contract, only a handshake... She, if the puppy turns out to have genetic issues, will probably get no help from the breeder, after all, he can deny a handshake or any type of guarantee if nothing was put in writing. Not a good thing, and maybe the breeder will work with her if the heart murmer turns out to be something that doesn't get better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nope, just surprised because I have never been contacted for this purpose and I can't believe that they are all using snail mail. Also surprised that registration costs are so low if they are contacting every breeder who has pups registered on line for approval.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I suppose it is possible that the few times you were contacted, the people had made some form of mistake in their paperwork, listed the wrong numbers? I am not sure when electronic registration began, but I suppose there may have been some hiccups in the system along the line.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ok my 2 cents for what it' worth

1. yes I'd call him up and just be casual, non accusatory, and ask about the dam's name on the papers? just say your "confused")

2. I would wonder IF he has a female named Holly and one named Sheba? Or as others pointed out, one dog with a reg'd name and a differing call name. 

3. Red flags would have been up when he was 'insisting' you do only schutzhund with the dog and pushing his training on you. Another red flag would have been no vet visit for any puppies ?? yikes

4. I'd find out about the regd name thing, register the dog online however you want to just to get her reg'd in YOUR name.

5. If your going to spay her anyway, you can always register her with AKC thru the ILP/Pal program and compete in ANYthing they offer for titles, except the conformation ring. So you can do agility/obedience/rally/herding/tracking just to name a few. 

6. What's done is done. If your otherwise happy with this girl, I'd register her and probably write the breeder off, I wouldn't want a breeder speaking to me this way, nor saying my dog was "only good for schutzhund" and absolutely against doing anything else I chose to do. Very closed minded in my opinion.

7. Nope I wouldn't take another dog from them, and it's not because of the health issues, it would be more because of his attitude, which didn't impress me from the start from what you've posted.

I hope her health issues disappear and hope she ends up being all you dreamed of..


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I don't know if he has a dog named Holly. I can't find any on the FB page so MAYBE she was just registered as Holly.

He sold me the puppy knowing I wanted/needed a service dog and that was my main goal. I said I had been interested in OTHER SPORTS but never got to do them with Chance (Which he was pretty insensitive about when I told him my story of how I lost my baby boy, saying "well I guess you learned a lesson" and then something else I can't remember, so I guess I can't really be surprised he is how he is attitude wise.) due to a lot of reasons but would see where things would go with Gretchen. I never once agreed to do or even try Schutzhund. I wanted to try conformation with her and he blew up and starts going off about how the UKC is a joke and my dog isn't show material. This happened AFTER I paid for the puppy.

I have no plans to spay her (at least not anytime soon) but also have no plans to breed her. There was no spay "contract" even mentioned anyways. First thing I asked when he said limited registration (assuming this meant she was being sold as a pet and there would be a spay requirement) was if it was ok if I kept her intact until at least 2 years old for her to fully mature and he brushed it off and said that didn't matter and just said I can't breed her or register any puppies to the AKC. Never once said I had to spay her, ever.

I guess I'll try online registration and if he has to confirm something, he can call me to discuss the name change. If his panties get that twisted over the "Ross" added then I'll drop all contact and say screw it. If not, then all is good.

Hopefully things do clear up and nothing is wrong with her in the future.  Just sucks she's had such an awful start to life.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Do what you want to do. AKC will probably not contact him at all, just register her the way you want to.
Have lots of fun with her and enjoy every minute.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with grandma do what you want , enjoy her and cross those bridges when they come..


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm with the people that are confused why this is such a big deal.

It's COMMON that our dogs come with an official name from the breeder. Heck, mine come officially named, tattoed and microchipped.... I could care less, and rename them to give them a call name that they are known by when they come to my home.

As far as the limited registry goes, I've also had that on all my dogs and it's a good thing! Meant to help keep things like heart murmers or other health temperament issues out of the lines by limiting breeding. Since my breeder picks my pup for me, and final decisions for this usually are way after the official naming/registration of the pups takes place, I know it would be ridiculous for me to think I'd be naming my potential puppy. So if I stick with a GSD and a using a responsible breeder I EXPECT to have no part of naming any pup I ever get.

Pretty much the ONLY thing you can't do with your dog is show in the conformation ring, but all the fun stuff like agility/herding/obedience/rally/etc are open to our dogs.

I would NOT ever think of whiting out or falsefying records. That kind of makes us part of the lack of honesty in the dog world and since there is no point not sure it's worth me lowering myself to that level. I have ethics and being honest is one of them.

Think you just need to look at this all as a learning experience and now you know more about the breed, finding a good breeder, and what to expect the next time. 

Learn, and move on. Keeping hold of the anger and frustration of the past won't do you OR your dog any good. Maybe that's the lesson in this, you learning how to move on and not hold onto past anger? Learn the lesson or not.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'm with the people that are confused why this is such a big deal.
> 
> It's COMMON that our dogs come with an official name from the breeder. Heck, mine come officially named, tattoed and microchipped.... I could care less, and rename them to give them a call name that they are known by when they come to my home.
> 
> ...



Very good advice. We almost purchased a 1yr. old boy, not neutered yet, but we planned to. The breeder would not even give us AKC papers, not even on a limited reg.
We walked away, and I loved that pup and how he looked, very handsome "to the standard" boy. 
We now have a stray and while he's got elbow dysplasia, he's doing fine and his temperament is so awesome, we're going to try to keep him going as long as we can.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

> It's COMMON that our dogs come with an official name from the breeder.


My puppy never had a name until the breeder asked me what I wanted to call her, that being Gretchen which is how she got her name. I didn't know when I bought her that there was a possibility I wouldn't get choice of registration name since it was never brought up. I'm fine with what he put, I'd just like ONE word added.



> As far as the limited registry goes, I've also had that on all my dogs and it's a good thing! Meant to help keep things like heart murmers or other health temperament issues out of the lines by limiting breeding. Since my breeder picks my pup for me, and final decisions for this usually are way after the official naming/registration of the pups takes place, I know it would be ridiculous for me to think I'd be naming my potential puppy. So if I stick with a GSD and a using a responsible breeder I EXPECT to have no part of naming any pup I ever get.


I picked my puppy, I picked the name she was going to be called and as far as breeding goes, I can still breed her 20 times if I really wanted to since there is no spay contract. I just can't register the puppies with the AKC. So how exactly is limiting her registration preventing anything besides registering a litter with the AKC? Not that the limited registration is even an issue, it just sucks to find out I can't compete in conformation shows. I never once said I had a problem with him putting her on limited registration, I bought the puppy knowing this. I just didn't know at the time I couldn't compete in conformation. Bummer? Yes. Problem? No, especially since she'd probably be laughed out of the ring anyways. It's one I can solve by registering her with something like the UKC if I really want to do it. Right now, I don't even know what I'm going to do.



> I would NOT ever think of whiting out or falsefying records. That kind of makes us part of the lack of honesty in the dog world and since there is no point not sure it's worth me lowering myself to that level. I have ethics and being honest is one of them.


Well...I guess there isn't much to say about this. The papers have been put away in my cabinet until I get the balls to call the breeder and ask about the dam and also ask if I can add Ross to the name. :shrug: It's just a matter of getting up the nerve to make the phone call since I'm scared of being yelled at. I'm weak, I know.



> Think you just need to look at this all as a learning experience and now you know more about the breed, finding a good breeder, and what to expect the next time.


I know plenty of the breed having been raised with German Shepherds my whole life, I'm not sure where you came up with my my knowledge of the breed. On the other hand, I'm pretty much ruined of breeders so I don't think they'll be an issue in the future. Happy to hand my cash to whoever will hand me the dog, no questions asked. I've never had a problem doing it the ol' fashioned way and think with my next dog I'll stick with this tradition. Doesn't mean I'm going out and buying some BYB puppy, but a dog who needs a home on the internet or out of the paper or in a shelter that doesn't have a requirements list a mile long.



> Learn, and move on. Keeping hold of the anger and frustration of the past won't do you OR your dog any good. Maybe that's the lesson in this, you learning how to move on and not hold onto past anger? Learn the lesson or not.


I have no anger? I simply ask questions and you assume I have anger. I'm just trying to figure out this whole new world of the dog actually having some kind of specialness. (Or the fact that I paid a LOT of money for this dog and just want to make sure everything is done right)

I've admitted many many times in the last 3 weeks that I made a mistake buying from a breeder but I certainly don't regret my dog or have any anger towards or about her.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I didn't pick either of my dogs registered names or have any say....thought that was normal. That is the breeders way of linking his litter's and their choice. I wouldn't care if someone wanted to add a name in there as long as I was aware, but since you call her gretchen who cares what a piece of paper says you'll never look at again?? My lab is registered as Henry Brown with our county and vet, but registered with the AKC as Jack's Peaks and Valley's...never called him Jack

Now the heart murmur, worms, and ear infection would have me through the roof. You paid tons of money for a dog that was never health tested or in front of a vet after birth and that is unacceptable to me. Heart murmur's are apparent hours after a puppy is born he had 8-10 weeks to have that detected and it can be from a structural deformity. How can he have a health guarantee without a vet??


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I've been following your posts and I just want to say I wish this had been a better experience for you. I feel badly for you. Maybe if you take the attitude that Gretchen was put into your life for a reason - maybe she'd be PTS with her health issues if someone else got her and returned her? Who knows... 

I know someone who was admiring my dog a few years ago, and then he found a breeder who sold him a puppy for $2000. I said that seemed like alot of money (maybe it's not?) but he said it was worth it because GSDs have hip problems (I'd had 3 GSDs up until then, none had bad hips) and this puppy was totally guaranteed to have good hips. He thought that meant that the breeder was promising that the dog would have good hips, which is impossible to do. 

I'm just curious, what type of service dog are you going to train her for? This is the most important work a dog can perform, IMO. Also want to add, after the breeder made that idiotic remark about you learning your lesson after Chance, I would have lost it on him. Don't you dare let him bully you! When he screams at you, just say really bored-like, "Oh, don't be so melodramatic" that gets them every time, lol.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> I'm pretty much ruined of breeders so I don't think they'll be an issue in the future. Happy to hand my cash to whoever will hand me the dog, no questions asked. I've never had a problem doing it the ol' fashioned way and think with my next dog I'll stick with this tradition. Doesn't mean I'm going out and buying some BYB puppy, but a dog who needs a home on the internet or out of the paper or in a shelter that doesn't have a requirements list a mile long.


Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. All you need to do next time is slow down, do a little research, choose a GOOD breeder that comes with a good reputation and recommendations from knowledgable people. Not the first breeder you see down the street with a sign. Of course, rescue is always a good way to go, too.



> I have no anger? I simply ask questions and you assume I have anger. I'm just trying to figure out this whole new world of the dog actually having some kind of specialness. (Or the fact that I paid a LOT of money for this dog and just want to make sure everything is done right)


Personally, I think you have a right to be angry. The attitude and behavior of this breeder has been appalling--there are red flags and issues all over the place and all you have been trying to do is clear them up. The breeder, quite frankly, has been a jerk and I'd be pretty miffed if I were you!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not see it as falsifying anything. The intent of the breeder is to have the dog bear his kennel name, so that if she does show the dog in obedience or anything else, it will be right there in her name. That should be and is just fine. She is not changing that. She is changing the part of the name that she intends to call the dog. The dog is hers, and if she registers the dog on line, it will make no difference if she registers her Gretchen Ross Vom Whoeverhaus or Gretchen Vom Whoeverhaus. This does not change the intentions of the breeder. She can contact the breeder about it if she likes, but I really doubt the breeder will care. 

As for showing. If you want to show in conformation, you really should buy the dog with that intention, and look up the rules before hand. For example, if you spay your bitch, showing in AKC is out and probably UKC as well. Dog shows might look like a glorified beauty contest, but their function is to select and judge breeding stock, so they require the dog be intact. 

Now as for the limited registration. There is a point to it. You can charge a person a lot more for a well-bred puppy with AKC papers. Unfortunately, you can charge a good deal for a pup that was not bred with health, conformation or temperament in mind if that dog has AKC paperwork. AKC is not a guaranty of quality, but it is the going thing in the US for making sure the dog is purebred. So a dog with AKC paperwork can be sold for more money. [The exception is puppies at pet stores have all kinds of worthless registration papers, and they charge a bundle for them, but people who are uneducated about these things buy from pet stores, they do not know the difference between, ACA, CKC, (Continental) and AKC. And thus the fool and their money is soon parted]

The point is that if you are wanting to breed your bitch and sell the puppies for $1000 each, without papers, you are looking at maybe $200-$400 and you might not even be able to sell them all for that. So, breeding the dog has even less of an incentive. You can sell her with a limited registration to someone else, and the limited registration does mean the dog is purebred. The dog herself is worth just as much to anyone who does not want to breed or show. But it is an attempt to protect the bitch from unscrupulous people who will breed her over and over again to sell her puppies, or to sell her to someone who will do likewise.

With the fake registries, the breeders sell the whole litter of pups for $50-$100 each to wholesaler's. They take their cut and transport them to various pet stores. The transporters get a cut (probably should go to jail if tales are true about how they do that). And then the individual stores are probably paying $300-$500/pup and will put a price tag of $1200-$1800 on the puppy. The puppy itself is worth about $50, and between the breeding, and conditions, and the lack of care, and the transportation, the puppies often have serious issues. Sad. But the point is that by giving a limited registration, the breeder is trying to avoid people breeding the pup they produced, but what is very possible is that the dog lands in one of these hellholes where the unscrupulous people do not care about limited registrations. 

So as much as I am against spay/neuter, if I were to sell any of my retired girls, they will be spayed prior to going to their new home. If they are spayed, they are worthless to the scoundrels.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

At some point though, there is not really an excuse for not doing your research. You have been on the forum since 2007 and there are plenty of sticky notes and tools for choosing a good breeder. and knowing about all the various restrictions etc.

*Is there some information missing that would have been more helpful to you before you began your quest to get a puppy?*

The AKC, UKC, CKC thing is why most folks who know any better won't mess with a puppy that is not AKC registrable (full or limited). Whilte AKC registration has nothing to do with the quality of the puppy, it is the registry accepted by the SV. Realizing that UKC will register a restricted AKC puppy with breeding rights, lowers them even more in my estimation, with the CKC being a lost cause.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Zoeys mom said:


> I didn't pick either of my dogs registered names or have any say....thought that was normal. That is the breeders way of linking his litter's and their choice. I wouldn't care if someone wanted to add a name in there as long as I was aware, but since you call her gretchen who cares what a piece of paper says you'll never look at again?? My lab is registered as Henry Brown with our county and vet, but registered with the AKC as Jack's Peaks and Valley's...never called him Jack
> 
> Now the heart murmur, worms, and ear infection would have me through the roof. You paid tons of money for a dog that was never health tested or in front of a vet after birth and that is unacceptable to me. Heart murmur's are apparent hours after a puppy is born he had 8-10 weeks to have that detected and it can be from a structural deformity. How can he have a health guarantee without a vet??


I guaranty hips and elbows. But I do not have the hips and elbows of the puppies checked before they go. The guaranty or warranty just is a statement that says if there is a problem, then I will do x. One does not need a vet for that. Worms -- most puppies have worms. We worm them several times before they go home, but we encourage the new owners to have them wormed or take a stool sample and have it checked when the take the pup in for its visit. That is normal. 

As for the heart murmur, they can be there and detected, and they can be missed or develop later on. I had a dog to the vet twice -- no murmur and the new owner's vet found a murmur. The pup did outgrow it. But still, we have no way to be sure that the murmur would have been detected by the vet, even if they did have the pup in. Better to wait and see on that. I know it's a negative experience. And a youngster with ear-infections makes me a little nervous. But with care, that may not be an ongoing problem. Breeders really cannot give a 3600 point tail to snout warranty on dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I never once said I had a problem with him putting her on limited registration, I bought the puppy knowing this. I just didn't know at the time I couldn't compete in conformation.


Why would anyone want to compete in conformation if not with the intent to breed the dog?
The only reason to do it is to make sure (judge's opinions) that you own a dog that meets the criteria for that breed, known as the "breed standard", for breeding purposes. 
Anyone can tell you your dog is pretty, heck, we can do that here on the forum!



> I've admitted many many times in the last 3 weeks that I made a mistake buying from a breeder but I certainly don't regret my dog or have any anger towards or about her.


You made the mistake of buying from a semi-backyard style breeder from the sounds of how you describe the experience.

What's strange is there's tons of information right on this forum of how to pick a good breeder but so many don't follow those guidelines, and then have a huge case of buyer's remorse when the puppy is sick or temperamentally unsound. 
Or, as in your case, you got limited registration. 

Did you plan on eventually breeding her?





jocoyn said:


> At some point though, there is not really an excuse for not doing your research. You have been on the forum since 2007 and there are plenty of sticky notes and tools for choosing a good breeder. and knowing about all the various restrictions etc.
> 
> *Is there some information missing that would have been more helpful to you before you began your quest to get a puppy?*
> 
> The AKC, UKC, CKC thing is why most folks who know any better won't mess with a puppy that is not AKC registrable (full or limited). Whilte AKC registration has nothing to do with the quality of the puppy, it is the registry accepted by the SV. Realizing that UKC will register a restricted AKC puppy with breeding rights, lowers them even more in my estimation, with the CKC being a lost cause.


Oops. You said it 

This is why, when we were offered the AKC reg. dog, when told we were not getting papers - at all - we declined. I know papers don't make a dog, but since we're shelling out more than we would for a rescued pet, I'd like to have those, neutered or not. 

We researched and learned all there was to know about purchasing a dog, that's all. 

If I hadn't cared a bit about the papers, I would have purchased him but not come on here to gripe about how I never got papers.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Why would anyone want to compete in conformation if not with the intent to breed the dog?
> The only reason to do it is to make sure (judge's opinions) that you own a dog that meets the criteria for that breed, known as the "breed standard", for breeding purposes.


Not true at all. I showed Vinca with no intent to breed her--it was really for the breeder; Vinca's dam was eligible for an award, a certain number of her offspring had to be certified as having no disqualifying faults. People show dogs all the time without breeding them. It looks good for a breeder to have show-winning offspring, whether they are bred or not.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

But that's still for breeding purposes, not your own but someone else's.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ChancetheGSD said:


> I picked my puppy, I picked the name she was going to be called and as far as breeding goes, I can still breed her 20 times if I really wanted to since there is no spay contract. I just can't register the puppies with the AKC. So how exactly is limiting her registration preventing anything besides registering a litter with the AKC?


It takes away the financial motive for breeding. Doesn't mean that you can't do it, and I'm sure people still do, but if you can sell puppies with AKC registration it proves that they're purebred, and people will usually pay more for a purebred puppy. Otherwise, you might get $50 for them, or end up giving some away. 



> Not that the limited registration is even an issue, it just sucks to find out I can't compete in conformation shows. I never once said I had a problem with him putting her on limited registration, I bought the puppy knowing this. I just didn't know at the time I couldn't compete in conformation. Bummer? Yes. Problem? No, especially since she'd probably be laughed out of the ring anyways. It's one I can solve by registering her with something like the UKC if I really want to do it.


Of all the fun things you can do with your puppy, conformation showing should be the least of them. All it does is compare her with the breed standard, as interpreted by that particular judge. Who cares? You can still do all the things that MRL mentioned - agility, herding, obedience, rally, and also tracking, dock diving, flyball, lure coursing. 



> I've admitted many many times in the last 3 weeks that *I made a mistake buying from a breeder* but I certainly don't regret my dog or have any anger towards or about her.


I don't think you made a mistake buying from _A_ breeder, but maybe from _THIS_ breeder. But as you said, you love your puppy and don't regret getting her, so it's really a moot point, no matter how much of a jerk he is.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Selzer I may have missed something but I think this breeder never had the pups vetted. Most puppies get worms and are treated, most vets still worm at least once more on the first visit with the new owner, but if a fecal is never done I would wonder if they were wormed with the breeder at all?? As a potential buyer hearing one puppy had a DOUBLE ear infection, worms, and murmur I would assume this breeder may miss a lot more....

It is also important to note it is a rare for a 8 week old puppy to get an ear infection unless conditions are sub par, and getting one in each ear come on guys ouchie ears can be spotted by a newbie dog owner how did it get that bad??


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> Selzer I may have missed something but I think this breeder never had the pups vetted. Most puppies get worms and are treated, most vets still worm at least once more on the first visit with the new owner, but if a fecal is never done I would wonder if they were wormed with the breeder at all?? As a potential buyer hearing one puppy had a DOUBLE ear infection, worms, and murmur I would assume this breeder may miss a lot more....
> 
> It is also important to note it is a rare for a 8 week old puppy to get an ear infection unless conditions are sub par, and getting one in each ear come on guys ouchie ears can be spotted by a newbie dog owner how did it get that bad??


This was my impression as well. The video the OP posted showing the puppy walking was concerning to see and she took the puppy to the vet right away. 

My impression is Chance is concerned for her puppy and very much attached. Emotions are running high and I think not having the breeder show concern is upsetting to her (or maybe the support she would like to have), kind of makes everything else stick out like a sore thumb, she's wary about everything now with the breeder.

I personally would put the breeder behind me, not worry about the name on the paperwork, accept the limited registration. Showing is the only event that can't be partcipated in but to me sounds the most boring anyway. lol

Chance- how are her ears right now? Is she still kind of walking weird?

My breeder disclosed a grade 1-2 murmur that her vet picked up. He's now 2 and his heart has been listened to several times by 4 different vets over the last two years and nothing has been detected. I'm hoping this is the case with your girl. I had ALOT of anxiety over this. Looking back I wish I would have taken him to a specialist for peace of mind.

How about some updated pics?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know. I agree that the the ear infections at that age are scary. But you can give a warranty without the pup seeing a vet. It is not a certificate of health. 

When you pick up your puppy, you really should ask, have they been to the vet? Have they been checked. If they say vet-checked and they are not, then that's not kool. If you are going to buy a pup that is not checked by a vet, check it over good yourself, and then get it into your own vet. But this is a conscious decision, not something that you think of weeks later.

On the other hand, the first pup I bought and the second never saw a vet. The first pup I bought that had been vet-checked, vaccinated and given a health certificate was the pup I bought from the Amish guy. Ah well.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

After reading all the pages....I find much about this entire topic saddening...

In one breath....posters are condemning a breeder and his "ethics" or practices.....and with the other breath...encouraging the OP to behave in a similar "unethical" or less than "honest" behaviour...?

I am generalizing this of course...(_this would be my opinion to ANY buyer/breeder_ _circumstance as such)....._but it is pretty obvious to what I am reading...
Personally......neither comes out smelling like a rose...breeder being less than honest, and buyer for "falsifying anything"...for ANY reason.
JMO


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I never gave the OP advice on what to do on her reg. papers. 
I personally have never had to deal with AKC other than when adopting out a dog with papers, I do give the papers to the new owner (dogs are all sterile when they leave here), so I wouldn't even have a clue what to put or say on the papers.

I know the registered name has little to do with what you actually name/call the dog, so to me, it seems moot.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Oh I agree, the reg papers should be completed as instructed by the breeder.

When I got mine that section was already filled out, the breeder wanted her kennel name on it. No problem. I could honestly care less about his name on his AKC paperwork, I call him Rusty


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> I've admitted many many times in the last 3 weeks that I made a mistake buying from a breeder but I certainly don't regret my dog or have any anger towards or about her.


I just want to say your little girl is beautiful and I've enjoyed reading the blog, and this post as a soon to be daddy of a little boy (To be born in July hopefully) these posts are interesting and good reads.

I understand the confusion surrounding it all, and its ALOT of information to register and read up on.

I hope that you don't get discouraged and continue to allow Gretchin to write her Blog 

Hoping that the little girl is doing well!


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Alright, to catch up on the post, I DID do research. I didn't go to some random BYB who does nothing but breed, breed, breed. I found someone who is a trainer, breeder and competitor. I saw the kennel, the dogs, I saw papers from some dogs and after a chat with him, I felt quite confident in his work. It wasn't until AFTER I got the dog that the nice guy act was completely dropped. It was like once he had the check and the dog was in my hands, the dog became useless to him. He does still encourage me to come out and train since I do still get 4 free training sessions which I might take him up on still just to kind of see how things go and talk to him about everything then. At least I'll have someone there with me (Since I'm not taking the 1.5 hour trip by myself) so maybe he'll be a little less cruel than he is on the phone. :/ As I said, I'm not trying to falsify anything, the papers are away from sight and thought for now and I am going to talk to him about the registered name. So long as his name is in it, I do think he'll be ok with me adding Ross but then again with the past, I do have my concerns and fears of it becoming a huge blow up. If nothing else, I have the excuse that a GSD has already been registered under the same registered name with my last name so I wanted it to be unique rather than just Gretchen Vom _____ II.



Zoeys mom said:


> Selzer I may have missed something but I think this breeder never had the pups vetted. Most puppies get worms and are treated, most vets still worm at least once more on the first visit with the new owner, but if a fecal is never done I would wonder if they were wormed with the breeder at all?? As a potential buyer hearing one puppy had a DOUBLE ear infection, worms, and murmur I would assume this breeder may miss a lot more....
> 
> It is also important to note it is a rare for a 8 week old puppy to get an ear infection unless conditions are sub par, and getting one in each ear come on guys ouchie ears can be spotted by a newbie dog owner how did it get that bad??


She was actually 6 weeks old when she was diagnosed with the ear infections. Oddly enough, she didn't show signs (no tilted head, no ear digging, ect - Just dirty ears) so to just look at her, no you couldn't really tell. But had the dog had an actual vet exam, they'd have diagnosed it like MY vet did. The breeder DID deworm her himself. Besides the tapeworms, she was cleared of all other worms/parasites. Not a very common case for a non-wormed puppy to be cleared of things like hook or roundworms.




Courtney said:


> This was my impression as well. The video the OP posted showing the puppy walking was concerning to see and she took the puppy to the vet right away.
> 
> *My impression is Chance is concerned for her puppy and very much attached. Emotions are running high and I think not having the breeder show concern is upsetting to her (or maybe the support she would like to have), kind of makes everything else stick out like a sore thumb, she's wary about everything now with the breeder.*
> 
> ...


The bolded part, this this this!

Her ears are all healed up, they did another ear cytology on them when I took her in about her walking funny. They did a full neuro exam too and said that things looked good besides some thickened knees for her age and said that they'd recheck everything at her next visit (Which is next week for her second round of shots/fecal/deworming/exam) to make sure her walking is getting better which from what *I* see, is. So I think a lot of it was the ear infection and maybe even just a touch of clumsy puppy added in. She DOES still bunny hop but I think that has to do with her knees. I plan to get x-rays done when she's older on her hips and knees even though the vet said her hips feel great.

I'm hoping the murmur does go away, I think I mentioned on one of the first pages of this that we're giving it until at least 18 weeks before we take the next step if it's not gone by then but the vet feels confident that it will go away. So as long as it doesn't get worse from now until then, we're just going to take it day by day for the murmur.




TrentL said:


> I just want to say your little girl is beautiful and I've enjoyed reading the blog, and this post as a soon to be daddy of a little boy (To be born in July hopefully) these posts are interesting and good reads.
> 
> I understand the confusion surrounding it all, and its ALOT of information to register and read up on.
> 
> ...


Thank you and fingers crossed for your puppy!  Actually just updated her blog today! Shared yesterday and today's events!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> When you pick up your puppy, you really should ask, have they been to the vet? Have they been checked. If they say vet-checked and they are not, then that's not kool. If you are going to buy a pup that is not checked by a vet, check it over good yourself, and then get it into your own vet. But this is a conscious decision, not something that you think of weeks later.


I agree, all this stuff should have been discussed before any puppy/money changed hands.

I don't think either of my pups went to a vet before I got them but I'm OK with that (I take them myself within 2 days and sometimes I feel they are healthier at home than being exposed to all the crap in a vet's office). However the breeder does multiple de-wormings and one vaccination. Both my dogs came with a paper that had the labels from the vials/meds peeled off and stuck on the paper so I could show that to my vet for their records.

The heart murmur is scary but I think they are common so hopefully it goes away. I'm not saying that's OK but again, the breeder can't really be blamed if there was no agreement to have this checked beforehand. Admittedly neither of my puppies were checked for this before I bought them and I'm not really sure what I would have done if either had one, probably wait it out to see if it clears and if not, replace the dog (but the stuff I do is just not safe for dogs with poor hearts). Pan may have come home with a slight ear infection, I'm not really sure. For several days he was really digging in his ear and it didn't smell all that great so I just treated it myself and it cleared up. I think it was probably due to some of the saw dust/chips the puppies were playing in in their outdoor enclosure when I went to pick him up. I think some of that dust got in his ear and irritated it causing a mild infection.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This isn't a criticism, however, are you saying the breeder sent the puppy home with you at 6 weeks? That's a little young. Usually they don't go home before 7 weeks at the earliest.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is really bothering me. 

I just do not see the problem with adding the extra-bit to the name. I do not mean whiting anything out, but if the OP wants the name to read a certain way, given that she is going by her agreement to have the breeder's kennel name in the name, I do not see the issue. 

If you told the breeder that you wanted the dog to be named Konrad and they put Conrad V KennelName, and it has not been registered yet, and you are going to do it on line, then why should it matter if you went ahead and changed the C to a K, so long as they did not specify a first letter designation? I see that as similar to adding Ross, Conrad Ross V KennelName.

I do not register my puppies, and I do not require my kennel names to be on the puppies. That is up to the new owners. I would love to see it in the book, but so few people actually get out there and DO something with their dogs, I just can't pop a vein over that. 

Anything else, like trying to change limited to full would be unethical. Eliminating the kennel name altogether would be unethical because it was agreed upon. 

Why did the papers not go with the dog? It sounds like they came in the mail? Waiting for the check to clear? That is unethical. The papers are supposed to go with the dog, and unless you are dealing with a bitch or dog that is not AKC, but imported, or bred SV, or something, there really isn't any excuse for not having those papers when the pups are ready to go. I think I put my application in on Thursday and the papers were at my house on Tuesday. 

Filling in the name is not one of the blue sections. The blue sections are what the breeder is supposed to fill in. The name is an owner section. If you want to name the dog yourself, as a breeder, register the litter, and pay up. Then the AKC will get a transfer fee when you transfer the pup to the new owner, but his name will be whatever you wanted his name to be. 

I am all for ethics, and abiding by what you agreed on, but doing something that does not violate what you agreed on, in my opinion is not unethical.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> This isn't a criticism, however, are you saying the breeder sent the puppy home with you at 6 weeks? That's a little young. Usually they don't go home before 7 weeks at the earliest.



This should have been a red flag right there.



> . However the breeder does multiple de-wormings and one vaccination. Both my dogs came with a paper that had the labels from the vials/meds peeled off and stuck on the paper so I could show that to my vet for their records.


We do the same for our rescue puppies but additionally, we usually do spay/neuter them before they leave and if any health issue exists, our vet will mention it and/or not spay/neuter in the case of a significant heart murmur or the like.
Any issues that are treatable such as a hernia, are addressed at the time as well.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Just for the record, the puppy was picked up later in the day on a Sunday. I was in SC when I got the dog, I didn't get back to NC until late Monday and took the puppy in Tuesday morning at which point the dog was diagnosed with the problems. This was NOT something that came up "weeks later".

The reason the papers weren't sent home with the puppy is because the breeder didn't have them until after I'd taken her home. (Which WAS earlier than he normally allows) Had I waited another week, she'd have gotten a vaccine by the breeder + I'd have picked up the papers. However, since she was taken a week early, I was left to do vaccines myself which I was ok with and had to wait for him to mail me the papers. He did say that the pups had been dewormed I think twice? by the time I got her.

At least I'm only worrying over the AKC papers, I'm suppose to have SV papers too (Which I never got) but at this point, there isn't much point. AKC is complicated enough.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So, what has the breeder said about the dam? Do you have an answer from him yet?


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Still lacking balls to call him Michelle. :/


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Just for the record, the puppy was picked up later in the day on a Sunday. I was in SC when I got the dog, I didn't get back to NC until late Monday and took the puppy in Tuesday morning at which point the dog was diagnosed with the problems. This was NOT something that came up "weeks later".
> 
> The reason the papers weren't sent home with the puppy is because the breeder didn't have them until after I'd taken her home. (Which WAS earlier than he normally allows) Had I waited another week, she'd have gotten a vaccine by the breeder + I'd have picked up the papers. However, since she was taken a week early, I was left to do vaccines myself which I was ok with and had to wait for him to mail me the papers. He did say that the pups had been dewormed I think twice? by the time I got her.
> 
> At least I'm only worrying over the AKC papers, I'm suppose to have SV papers too (Which I never got) but at this point, there isn't much point. AKC is complicated enough.


Well, if you took the pup prior to when he would normally have them vet-checked and vaccinated, then you were ok with that. I usually take them into the vet at 7 weeks. I cannot diagnose a heart murmur. But the ears should not have been dirty, or infected. That is a little troublesome.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Pick up the phone and call him.. The worst he can do is yell and hang up. And then you won't have to fret about calling him or if your dog has the right mother.

I hate confrontation, but this man is not a personal friend of yours. If you lose him as an acquaintance it will not be a catastrophe. He is not helping with the puppy anyways.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you should just call him. Start with "I'm confused...I don't understand the paperworks..." But you'll never have a resolution until you do that. And in all fairness to the breeder, because he can easily be found and connected to this thread, you should get it straightened out. Best of luck!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How/why does he get SV papers for a dog bred in the USA?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Liesje said:


> How/why does he get SV papers for a dog bred in the USA?


Hmm, I wondered the same thing???


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> Well, if you took the pup prior to when he would normally have them vet-checked and vaccinated, then you were ok with that. I usually take them into the vet at 7 weeks. I cannot diagnose a heart murmur. But the ears should not have been dirty, or infected. That is a little troublesome.


And that's the thing...a breeder who "never lets puppies go at 6 weeks" but "makes an exception", probably always lets puppies go at 6 weeks.
A cursory exam when you picked up the puppy and held it at the time when you got it to bring home could have shown dirty ears and you'd have said "wow, his ears are real dirty" or some such. At that point, if you prodded a bit further and puppy winced, that'd be another clue.

I can tell you, most adopters go at least that far when adopting a puppy from us. 
And I encourage it, I also go over some basic training things like examining puppy. We actually look at the puppy's teeth and ears along with the adopter, we go over it from head to tail, and I show them how to hold the puppy in a relaxation state, work on their nails and examine everything you could examine on a puppy. 
I go over basic housetraining items, vaccine schedule, etc. 

If I can do that, as a rescuer, surely a breeder who is getting hundreds or even thousands for their dogs could. 

Since our puppies are usually altered at the time of adoption, we do also have the benefit of them having not only seen a vet, but passed the pre-anesthetic exam which includes screening for heart murmurs and other issues such as ear infections or foreign bodies. 

When people ask me, "are they healthy", I tell them, Well the vet did surgery on them and if they are not healthy they'd not do that. 
To be sure, it's a more detailed exam than what the eye can see.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Sounds like you've got an awesome rescue going Msvette! It's nice when someone actually cares that much about the dogs.

I did just get off the phone with him, moms name is correct. I also asked about registering her as Gretchen Ross and he said that was fine as well. Asked how she was doing, even asked if her walking was better. He talked about his girl/her sister and said that the brother was doing well too. Encouraged me to stop by for training in the next week or two to take him up on those 4 free sessions. So I'll probably take him up on that and see where it goes from there.

As for SV papers...:shrug: Just what I was told about. As you can see, I'm ignorant to the AKC, I certainly don't know a thing about the SV or how it's ran.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Glad you got it over with and just called I am sure you feel better knowing at least her papers are authentic


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I expected there would not be trouble with the name. I am glad that the breeder does sound interested in the puppy. It is possible that when you spoke to him last, you just caught him at a really bad moment. 

I sold a puppy to my snow plow people a couple of years ago, and they called while I was cleaning off a puppy, trying to get it going. Yeah, I should not have answered, but I was expecting a call from someone coming that day. They started talking about something, and I don't even want to think how awful I sounded at the moment. I did tell her what I was in the middle of and made a couple of suggestions, but it was probably the worst time possible for anyone to call me.


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