# Overfeeding Thin Puppy. Is it okay?



## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

So! We are keeping the puppy 

Anyway, he's starting to eat quite a bit... Last night we saw a trainer that we will be using in the future, and he said that we should be focused on getting him healthier and not worrying about his now new obsesion over our human food dinners (something brought on from having fed him chicken and steak when he wasn't eating) because this is stuff that will be corrected immediately after he's healthier.

Last night he ate about a cup of boiled chicken and kibble. Let me just say... he looked like a waddling balloon of some sort. He immediately took a poop and came in to plop down.

Took a huge crap in his crate over night, which is still normal for us as he's still with diarrhea.

This morning he ate about 2/3rds a cup of boiled chicken, rice, kibble, and goat's milk. Again, he turned into a fat balloon.

My question is, is it okay that he's getting so bloated when we feed him? He is hardly eating anything in our eyes... 2/3rds of a cup does not seem like a lot, but he turns out *massive* after eating.

We've only had two feedings where he's turned massive (we just got him a new kibble yesterday that he loves), but I just want to know if it's okay considering he really needs the food intake. Is it too much stress on the body? Should we be feeding him less than he'll ingest?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Is he gulping his food and eating fast? If yes, slow him down. It will be best to feed him several small meals a day.

Have you read about bloat?

Some information for you: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/85892-help-needed-bloat-must-read-gsd-owners.html

Bloat


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It is possible to feed him 3-4 meals per day instead of 2? It would give him smaller meals at more regular intervals. I know it's not always possible with work hours.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> It is possible to feed him 3-4 meals per day instead of 2? It would give him smaller meals at more regular intervals. I know it's not always possible with work hours.


Well, the two meals that he bloated was dinner last night and breakfast this morning. I was planning on doing four... but would you then make the meals smaller? Our schedule actually works out perfectly for four meals a day.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Have you taken the puppy to a vet yet?

If the puppy has been eating out of garbage cans, he probably has worms. You need to get him to the vet, get him wormed. ASK the vet to rate his overall condition and suggest how many calories he should eat each day. How much weight he should gain if any.

Let's say 2000 kCal per day. 

Now you have to look at your dog food. If that is lets say 567 kcal/cup, then you have to say, ok A little less that four cups per day. Now you decide if you want to feed three or four meals, or just two, depending on how much the pup needs to gain/ condition of the pup. 

So if you are feeding four times, that is a little less than one cup per feeding. 

Now if you are feeding meat as well as kibble, you need to reduce the amount of kibble to allow for the calories of the meat. 

If you are feeding a quality dog food, you should not need to provide the dog with extras. In fact, if your dog food is balanced, you will knock it OUT OF BALANCE by adding to it. Meat is good, and you might want to feed three of the feedings kibble and one meat, if you must. But there is NO reason this puppy still needs goats milk. I would cut that out right away. 

I would ask the vet how many calories, break that down into meals, and then offer a little boiled chicken or cheese as training treats, or treats for pottying outside. Weigh the puppy each week and see how he is meeting his goals. 

Weight is subjective. An adult dog should have a wasteline looking from the top and looking from the side. Seeing the last rib is ok and perhaps perferred. That does depend a little on how barrel chested or slab sided the dog is. But still, you should not see a rack of ribs. Puppies can look a little more puppyish, but having a puppy overweight will be harmful for the puppy down the road, and will hinder the puppy now as well. 

Good luck with the pup. Take it to the vet. Ask questions.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Is he gulping his food and eating fast? If yes, slow him down. It will be best to feed him several small meals a day.
> 
> Have you read about bloat?
> 
> ...


He actually seems to be an okay eater. He eats pretty slowly and stops to take a break and get some water, then comes back for more.

He actually likes to be a scavenger around the house and pick up food off the floors... seems to prefer it over his bowl. A little odd...


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

I'd be careful with overfeeding him like that. Bloat and antussiceptions (sp?) can occur as a result of him eating too much at one time. If he really needs to bulk up then feed him smaller meals more often.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

selzer said:


> Have you taken the puppy to a vet yet?
> 
> If the puppy has been eating out of garbage cans, he probably has worms. You need to get him to the vet, get him wormed. ASK the vet to rate his overall condition and suggest how many calories he should eat each day. How much weight he should gain if any.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the suggestions. We'll read over the back of the bag again. What was confusing on the Royal Canin bag was it said for puppies TARGET WEIGHT, they should be getting upwards of 4 cups a day. Now that's insane because our puppy was only eating about a cup a day on plain kibble.

I don't think you've been reading the other threads on my puppy, but he came to us starved and very sick with worms and coccidia. 

Over the worms... coccidia somehow got a little worse, but we got new meds. Still diarrhea though, nothing could be more aggrivating when we're trying to potty train the little guy.

I'm hoping the rice helps with the diarrhea though. The goat's milk is for nutrients that we feel he needs (very malnourished). 

We were doing the plain yogurt as well and that was working out fine, but the diarrhea persisted so I'm just looked for some new alternatives.

The chicken seems like a good idea and he definitely shows great interest.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

TechieDog said:


> I'd be careful with overfeeding him like that. Bloat and antussiceptions (sp?) can occur as a result of him eating too much at one time. If he really needs to bulk up then feed him smaller meals more often.


Thanks. I think I will try 1/2 cup four times a day.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, you would feed less per meal. Figure out his total daily needs and divide it by 4. 

Has the vet done anything about the chronic diarrhea? I would think that could lead to other health problems if the lining of his intestines are irritated for a long period of time?

Get some canned pumpkin. It's in the baking aisle but make sure it's ONLY pumpkin and not a pie mix with spices. That will add fiber to his diet and hopefully firm his stool up a bit. As far as what he eats, I would follow the advice you got in the other thread from Carmen. I believe she said to not feed rice? I can't remember. If you are going to, then use brown rice and not white.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> Thanks. I think I will try 1/2 cup four times a day.


That should be plenty at his size. Even 3x 1/2 cup ( NOT 3 and 1/2 cups) would be good until he is settled down. My 65 pound dogs eat little more than 2 cups a day and they are not skinny.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Yes, you would feed less per meal. Figure out his total daily needs and divide it by 4.
> 
> Has the vet done anything about the chronic diarrhea? I would think that could lead to other health problems if the lining of his intestines are irritated for a long period of time?
> 
> Get some canned pumpkin. It's in the baking aisle but make sure it's ONLY pumpkin and not a pie mix with spices. That will add fiber to his diet and hopefully firm his stool up a bit. As far as what he eats, I would follow the advice you got in the other thread from Carmen. I believe she said to not feed rice? I can't remember. If you are going to, then use brown rice and not white.


We decided on the rice because he's not getting much intake with the yogurt and kibble. I will try the pumpkin which I haven't tried yet because he's taking in so many random foods. 

This is actually the most he's ever eaten so we're just glad we found a good combination of foods that he's highly interested in. He was interested in wet food for about a day. It's been very hit or miss, so I'm just happy he's taking in food  Now he can beef up and hopefully get some hard poops.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hmmm....maybe you need some famous Molly from Southern Cross Satin Balls for him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ok. I guess I am confused. On the one thread, we were talking about the puppy being malnourished and letting him eat without any extra requirements or stress. But then the puppy has a layer of fat. Now the puppy is eating so much it is physically looking bloated -- that is simply NOT good in my opinion. 

A puppy can eat so much that they hurt themselves if you let them. Chicken is pretty tame. But feeding a dog chicken and rice CANNOT put weight on them. There is not enough nutrients in Chicken and rice. Sorry. The dog needs a balanced diet. Good dog foods are balanced. But if you offer someone a two pound steak or a spinach cassarole, most are going to go for the steak. I would. Your puppy will too. They will go for the meat and eat less of the the kibble. 

Your dog is eating the kibble. If he is overeating, his system will compensate by expelling it before it goes through the entire digestive process. ie, the loose stool. Overfeeding your pup will cause it to have diahrrea, and since the nutrients shoot through without being properly digested, the dog will CONTINUE to be malnourished. 

So, what you need to do, is to trust your kibble. Feed the puppy much less and more frequently, and get the turd solid. Once that is solid, you can add in a little of this or a little of that to increase weight. 

Rice has no nutrient value -- very little. Almost nothing is white rice. Brown rice is a little better. It is easy to digest, but what good is that. It is filler and will just increase the volume of the poop. Anyway, your Royal Canine has plenty of grains, your dog does not need for you to add more. 

Chicken is ok, and the dog likes it, but he will eat that first and not necessarily process what he needs. And the milk is probably hurting more than helping. No dog his age would be eating milk of any sort. Egg on the other hand is high in protein, and low in calories and will be good for the coat. 

But first get the poop solid. Once that happens, you can adjust up and down. Clean up the floor and do not allow the puppy to determine what he eats. Once the poop is solid you can experiment with chicken or egg, to improve coat, etc. 

That is what I would do. 

Good luck.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

So glad to hear you are keeping the puppy! I'm looking forward to watching him grow and get healthy. 



Jax08 said:


> hmmm....maybe you need some famous Molly from Southern Cross Satin Balls for him.


No satin balls for dogs under a year! It's not good for their growth rate.



Sleepyhouse22 said:


> We decided on the rice because he's not getting much intake with the yogurt and kibble.


Rice is doing VERY little for him. He may be eating more, but it's not doing anything, nutrient wise. Many dogs do fine on just kibble... others have a homecooked diet or a raw diet. I think you need to decide what you want to do. Rice is a "filler," added to make dogs feel more full or to firm up stool. He doesn't need to fill up on rice... he needs to fill up on nutrient rich food. As the previous poster stated, if he's eating too much, it'll only add to the diarrhea problems and cause him to poop out the good stuff as well as the "filler" (the rice). 

I believe you previously expressed that you did not want a raw or homecooked diet, and that's fine.. so stick with the kibble. Add the yogurt for a probiotic (be careful, though... some dogs cannot handle dairy and this COULD be adding to the diarrhea issue) and goats milk (same caution with this as with the yogurt). 

I would personally go with JUST kibble for a couple of weeks and see if that stool firms up.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

selzer said:


> ok. I guess I am confused. On the one thread, we were talking about the puppy being malnourished and letting him eat without any extra requirements or stress. But then the puppy has a layer of fat. Now the puppy is eating so much it is physically looking bloated -- that is simply NOT good in my opinion.
> 
> A puppy can eat so much that they hurt themselves if you let them. Chicken is pretty tame. But feeding a dog chicken and rice CANNOT put weight on them. There is not enough nutrients in Chicken and rice. Sorry. The dog needs a balanced diet. Good dog foods are balanced. But if you offer someone a two pound steak or a spinach cassarole, most are going to go for the steak. I would. Your puppy will too. They will go for the meat and eat less of the the kibble.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the suggestions. The first meal was without rice... the second one was with two spoonfuls of it. If it's truly not good, then I won't do it any more. I had only heard good things about it being food for the diarrhea.

He is still tiny, but he is beefing up. We had to switch the food yesterday because he shows a lot of interest in my royal canin bulldog formula and not the taste of the wild food that we had bought for both of them. Ran and got me a bag of german shepherd puppy formula and he's all about it. 

My reason for adding the chicken was to add more protein to his diet. Certainly, it is not our choice at all to feed him any of this. It's shredded into tiny bits and mixed in with the kibble, thus he has to eat the kibble with the chicken and all of it. 

Sigh! So much information and advice that it's hard to do everything to everybody's standards.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

A well balanced kibble should contain all he needs. There certainly is no harm in feeding the chicken... but if he'll eat the food without it, I'd try without. He may eventually become used to yummy things in his kibble and refuse to eat it without chicken or other "toppings." I would save the chicken as training treats.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> So glad to hear you are keeping the puppy! I'm looking forward to watching him grow and get healthy.
> 
> 
> No satin balls for dogs under a year! It's not good for their growth rate.
> ...


Thanks, the vet did say that the milk could be upsetting his stomach more. It would suck if that is the case because of the yogurt thing as well... As far as I could tell, it was only making his poop creamier. 

So no go on the rice, eh? Good to know. And I made such a huge pot too. Sigh!


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> A well balanced kibble should contain all he needs. There certainly is no harm in feeding the chicken... but if he'll eat the food without it, I'd try without. He may eventually become used to yummy things in his kibble and refuse to eat it without chicken or other "toppings." I would save the chicken as training treats.


That's exactly what we didn't want!

A lot came with getting a sick puppy that involved a lot of things happening that we didn't want to start our puppy off on. 

But, very true to everybody. We finally found a kibble that he will eat without stuff mixed in, so it may just be best to do it straight.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)




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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

The rice really doesn't offer anything as far as nutrients... and since the puppy is bloating up after eating the rice could be complicating matters. It doesn't sound like it's helping with the diarrhea, so I'd skip it. Good thing it's cheap! 

I have always used 100% pure pumpkin (canned) for my dogs when they get the squirts. It's best to determine the cause... but I think in your pup's case it's a combination of adjusting to his new home, worms, and malnutrition, so firming up the poops fast needs to be a goal. You should be able to find it at any supermarket... just add a teaspoon to a meal or let him lick it right off the spoon, if he likes it (sorry if you mentioned trying it before... I've been reading several threads and my brain is addled). Don't give more than a teaspoon or two per day for a pup this small... pumpkin works both ways: give a little, firm up the poop. Give a lot, loosen up the poop.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Great! I will run by the store before I get home for some.

Any idea of how long it would take to see the effects? We're afraid he's still very much so infected with coccidia (since his poop is still yellow squirts). He's going into the vet for a third time to get a fecal exam tomorrow. I really hope the medicine has shown improvement... two weeks (or more) with diarrhea is a bit insane for him and for us.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

This is awesome news! I'm glad you're keeping him, you are his angel.  

Hugs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A quality kibble should have all the protein your dog needs. TOTW is nothing I would feed to puppies. Sorry, I am not a fan of high protein, grain free food for puppies. 

Too much protein can actually cause problems. 

You have to become a student of dog nutrition to really know what you are doing with dog food. I do not pretend that I am. I may give mine raw chicken one meal in 7 or one meal in 14, but that will not cause any problems. If I was feeding raw one of the two meals per day, I would have to spend a LOT of time learning the inns and outs and ups and downs of dog nutrition so that I do not whack them out of balance.

Puppy nutrition is not the same as for adult dogs, but there are all life stages food that can work for either. This means the food is suitable, if fed in adjusted amounts for adults and puppies that both puppies and adults will get what they need from the food. However, there may be foods that are excellent for adults that will NOT work for puppies properly. You have to know about that stuff to do it right. 

If you do not want to put in the time and research into learning about puppy nutrition, feed 90 to 100% of your dogs total intake a formula of quality kibble that is suitable for puppies. 

A healthy dog will NOT starve itself to death. A smart dog might turn its nose up at kibble if they think there is steak in the fridge. 

what you need to do is put the dogs food down for 10 minutes. Just kibble. Nothing else. Then pick it up and do not offer ANY food until the next meal time and repeat. Within a day or two, your dog will GET it, that he better eat the kibble or it goes away. 

the extras are probably doing more damage than good at this point, and they are creating a picky eater. I would stop using them.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Josie/Zeus said:


> This is awesome news! I'm glad you're keeping him, you are his angel.
> 
> Hugs.


 
Thanks a lot. I think we got far too attached.


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## Zan (Nov 12, 2010)

Good for you! All the advice about pumpkin, rice, chicken is good. It can take a while for their gut to heal from coccidia (I know it is so frustrating when you're trying to potty train.) Just be patient and I think more frequent, smaller meals should help with that too.

Edit to add: slippery elm can be helpful with healing the gut. I will leave it up to more knowledgable folks to advise on if/how to give him that.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

selzer said:


> A quality kibble should have all the protein your dog needs. TOTW is nothing I would feed to puppies. Sorry, I am not a fan of high protein, grain free food for puppies.
> 
> Too much protein can actually cause problems.
> 
> ...


Definitely. We initially liked the sound of a raw diet because I think it's great fun and the dog would love it, etc. but I knew that chicken and rice was not a balanced meal and that I would have to be adding vitamins and all this crap to make it balanced. I definitely do trust quality kibble. We've been through a lot of experimentation in foods with my english bulldog... most sensitive stomach in the world... can't even have dog treats (his treats are ice). Royal Canin, though many have bad things to say about its ingredients, did wonders for my bully. Now he just seems bored, and that's why we switched to taste of the wild and thought it'd be convenient if the pup was on the same food. 

However, now they've flip flopped. Joy to me. We really need a dog/cat food pantry at this point.

We've started picking up his bowl too and stopped feeding in the crate. I think he's getting healthier and healthier, so we want to move away from these things. Your suggestions are good for this stage of his treatment I do believe, so we'll take it to heart.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am glad he is getting healthier. 

Most of my dogs scarf down their food so fast that I put it on the crate floor instead of a dish to slow them down. That works for nine out of ten dogs. And since I feed twice a day, I know instantaneously when one is under the weather. I mean if they leave food, I am checking temperatures, and watching closely. 

But my Joy Joy, she, is a little Diva, and ONLY eats properly outside. Yeah nuts. Ok, so I feed the boogers when I bring them in at night. then in the morning, I take their breakfast out to their kennels and put it in a dish. Joy eats all of that, but takes her good old time doing it. Everyone else is done eating before she even goes over to sniff it. 

I know I digress a little. I could go into her kennel and pick it up for a few days and maybe that would straighten her up, I don't know. But for now, it does not seem to be broken. I feed her at night with the others. She eats a little through the course of the night. I put everyone out with food and water, and let Babsy finish up Joy's dinner. I feed Joy 3 cups in her bowl in her kennel where everyone else gets 2 - 2.5 cups. But she does eat it all. 

I guess the point is not all dogs are the same, and you have to figure out what works for you. My dogs LOVE raw meat, but I give it only occasionally.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Please let me know if you're interested in a raw diet at some point. I'm a huge fan (all my dogs are rawfed) and I have a little article written up for beginners.  It is likely best, at this point, however, to simply give him kibble if that's what he's eating. If he's being a picky eater, a raw diet might be unbalanced and that can lead to tummy troubles/diarrhea. He's already got that going on, poor little guy.

Regarding the Taste of the Wild... I tried Luna on that before switching to raw and she had loose stool... it never really resolved so we switched to something else (and then ultimately switched to raw). 

Regarding the pumpkin, it should work almost right away. I made the mistake not too long ago of giving my dogs some hamburger that was a little too far gone (they can eat food that's gone bad... but apparently there's a limit!) and all three got diarrhea/loose stool. I gave them pumpkin and the diarrhea had, for the most part, cleared up by the next day.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If calcium is added to the satin balls then there is no reason a puppy couldn't have them.

Holistic Dog - Satinballs Satin Balls

As far as to much protein causing problems. That is just simply not true. To much calcium can cause problems in growing pup. And Taste of the Wild DOES have to much protein for a puppy!

Sleepyhouse22 - if you are interested in a RAW diet I would suggest you contact Lauri. Her website is rawdogranch.com. Or even contact Carmen thru PM here. She gave great advice in the other thread on feeding your puppy.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

I think the important question here is....what's his name? 
I don't recall ever hearing it.

And I'm so glad you've decided to keep him. I have a feeling this little guy is going to be a great addition to your family!


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Satin balls are designed to put weight on a dog very quickly. This is not usually a good thing with puppies. That is why I do not recommend using them.

Yes, it is the calcium/phosphorus ratio that must be watched when choosing kibble for large breed puppies. Ideally, it should be around 1.2 to 1. The OP is not currently feeding TOTW... they are feeding Royal Canin. I think the most important thing at this point is to get the puppy's diarrhea stopped and therefore would not recommend any further food switching.. at least not until all of the other issues get cleared up.

And I do realize that I have not been a member here as long as the people you mentioned in your post, Jax08, but I do feel I have something to at least contribute to the forum.  I am not sure why you feel my advice should automatically be dismissed?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> And I do realize that I have not been a member here as long as the people you mentioned in your post, Jax08, but I do feel I have something to at least contribute to the forum.  I am not sure why you feel my advice should automatically be dismissed?



Where are you getting that from? I am seriously to busy for egos and petty crap. Have at it...give all the advice you want. Apparently others aren't allowed to also give advice if you are on the case...

You might want to check out how long Carmen has been a member (as if that matters) before you tell me how I feel and explain my motives to me. the only reason I read your ONE post is you quoted me in and I responded to that.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Where are you getting that from? I am seriously to busy for egos and petty crap. Have at it...give all the advice you want. Apparently others aren't allowed to also give advice if you are on the case...
> 
> You might want to check out how long Carmen has been a member (as if that matters) before you tell me how I feel and explain my motives to me. the only reason I read your ONE post is you quoted me in and I responded to that.


Please don't get offended, and I in no way was trying to demean Carmen or anyone else (on the contrary, I have seen Carmen's replies in other threads and would never deny the quality of the advice given). I was merely feeling as if you were trying to steer the OP away from my advice altogether...

But let's not turn this important thread into a bickering match, okay?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Would it be safe to give the puppy a teaspoon of psyllium fiber powder on his meals to help firm up his stool? I have done that for my dogs and it did help, of course they were never as sick as this puppy.


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## BobbyC (Mar 14, 2011)

I read all of the other thread about your puppy and was kinda disappointed that you were giving him up. Then I see this thread and I'm very happy to hear you're keeping him! Even though I haven't posted in the other thread, I feel like I know you and your pup . 

Pumpkin 1/2 to 1 tspn per meal will help firm up stool. It works both ways. It'll firm up stool and also act like a laxative to give your pup normal BM. 

All the other advice sounds great. I also use Royal Canin GSD Puppy for my 7 month old but will be switching to Wellness LBP after doing more research online. If it doesn't work out, I'll switch back to RC GSD Puppy. 

I wish you the best with the puppy!!! 

BTW, What's his name?


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks all for the advice. We went to the vet on Saturday and she also gave us an anti-diarrhea medicine that seems to be on track.

His name is Ranger.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I am glad you are keeping him. Congrats. I am glad he is getting better. You are in good hands here. Please keep us updated on his progress. When he gets healthy and you have the time we would all love to see pics of Ranger. There are so many members here rooting for him myself included.  Keep up the good work with him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

huh , what did I do , why was my name invoked. lol

Chances are your dog is getting Albon , amprolium , which will clear diarrhea .
Slippery elm is excellent for nutritive value, and for clearing diarrhea and/or constipation. 
Consider probiotics -- even better a symbiotic which is a formula which has prebiotics which prepare the body for the probiotics to implant themselves and form colonies and digestive enzymes. pre and pro biotics and digestive enzymes all in one.

Carmen


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