# GSD Breeder in GTA (Square back, long black coat)



## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

Hello!
My family is planning on adopting a German Shepherd pup this July.
I did some research and found that a square back shepherd has less health issues than the show ones with the arched back but all the breeders I'm looking at have sloped backs.
I have looked into German Shepherd Kennel and Royal German Shepherds (would link but post count is too low)

If you could recommend me any breeders in Toronto that have puppies (or a younger adult) that are preferably long haired, pure black with square backs, that would be great!
We also have an 8 month old kitten at home that is well socialized and affectionate, so a lower energy and calm temperament pup is a must.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kenimn said:


> Hello!
> My family is planning on adopting a German Shepherd pup this July.
> I did some research and found that a square back shepherd has less health issues than the show ones with the arched back but all the breeders I'm looking at have sloped backs.
> I have looked into German Shepherd Kennel and Royal German Shepherds (would link but post count is too low)
> ...


Your research on backs is a little misguided. What appears to be a "sloped back" is usually just the dog in a stack or show pose. 

"Straight Backed" is a marketing gimmick. I would honestly be very leery of any 'breeder' that uses terms like that to describe their dogs. It's one of those red flags that say "you might be dealing with a 'BYB'. 

Low energy and calm temperament in a GSD pup... Don't get your hopes up! Puppies are anything but! Zoomies, biting, and craziness are par for the course!  Be prepared to keep the dog and kitten seperated, remember german shepherds are herding dogs with a fair bit of prey drive. Not saying that it CAN'T get along with cats. But an untrained, unsupervised pup can easily kill a cat.


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Your research on backs is a little misguided. What appears to be a "sloped back" is usually just the dog in a stack or show pose.
> 
> "Straight Backed" is a marketing gimmick. I would honestly be very leery of any 'breeder' that uses terms like that to describe their dogs. It's one of those red flags that say "you might be dealing with a 'BYB'.
> 
> Low energy and calm temperament in a GSD pup... Don't get your hopes up! Puppies are anything but! Zoomies, biting, and craziness are par for the course!  Be prepared to keep the dog and kitten seperated, remember german shepherds are herding dogs with a fair bit of prey drive. Not saying that it CAN'T get along with cats. But an untrained, unsupervised pup can easily kill a cat.


I see, I saw a forum post from 2014 that was talking about the type of backs and was a little bit concerned
http: // forums.redflagdeals . com/gta-german-shepherd-breeders-recommendations-any-avoid-1431231/
(still can't post links)
Thanks for informing me, the breeders I've seen never mentioned anything about backs so I'm glad I posted on this forum.

Haha yes! Since our kitten gets hyper from time to time too, we thought a puppy could keep him company, either way I am ready to dedicate my time to training and exercising a pup since I've been planning this for 5 years.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

This is from a recent thread here Re: backs



Dainerra said:


> I believe the one I shared a couple days ago is the photo that chip is talking about
> 
> 
> 
> the slope has nothing to do with the back. Think of the stack as a body builder flexing during a competition. It's simply a way to allow the judge to evaluate the various proportions of the dog in regards to the standard.


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> This is from a recent thread here Re: backs


This makes a lot more sense, thanks so much for educating me!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kenimn said:


> I see, I saw a forum post from 2014 that was talking about the type of backs and was a little bit concerned
> http: // forums.redflagdeals . com/gta-german-shepherd-breeders-recommendations-any-avoid-1431231/
> (still can't post links)
> Thanks for informing me, the breeders I've seen never mentioned anything about backs so I'm glad I posted on this forum.
> ...


The GSD community is a divided one. Working line owners can be quick to declare show lines crippled frog dogs. Show line people can be quick to call the working line dogs ugly grey crazy teeth with a tail. 

A 'choose your team' vibe. However like most things in life the truth is going to be somewhere in the middle. 

There are many many many show line dogs that have no health and hip issues. Show line dogs that lead long happy healthy working lives.

From what you have mentioned about you needs for temperament - calm and able to interact with a cat and not turn it into a squeaky toy... you are probably going to have an easier time finding your match so to speak from a good show line breeder. As they do tend to have less drive and are easier going (while still being shepherds!)

I just don't want you to see a dog in a stack on a breeder's website and think "Oh no! Sloped back! These dogs will all have health problems!" As that is not really the case  

I'm not familiar with your area but I know lots of other posters here are. Good luck on the puppy hunt!


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> The GSD community is a divided one. Working line owners can be quick to declare show lines crippled frog dogs. Show line people can be quick to call the working line dogs ugly grey crazy teeth with a tail.
> 
> A 'choose your team' vibe. However like most things in life the truth is going to be somewhere in the middle.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! Yes I now understand that the sloped backs are actually just from the way they are posed, so I should probably edit the forum now
Yes I heard show lines were more easy going so I'm currently searching breeders, however I notice a lot of websites haven't been updated since a few years which makes finding one in my area a bit of a challenge, but I shall continue the hunt!


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

*White GSD*

I just found a breeder who breeds white GSDs and they are absolutely gorgeous!
If any of you had any experience with Andega Shepherds, let me know.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I think Winning Ways might be in your area.


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## Quinnsmom (Dec 27, 2008)

Winning Ways is in Sault Ste. Marie so a good long hike. A member here, Miss Molly May, has a Winning Ways dog and he is delighted with her.


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

Quinnsmom said:


> Winning Ways is in Sault Ste. Marie so a good long hike. A member here, Miss Molly May, has a Winning Ways dog and he is delighted with her.


Oh man that's a 7+hour drive away, which is something my family can't do because of work D;
I've decided to go for Carissima Kennels! I've done a search and saw a good amount of recommendations here. I'll be visiting them the Tuesday after next week so I'll post my experience + pics


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what happened to the solid black long coat square back ? 
take your time . 
I thought you specifically said that you did not want the arched backs and health issues of show line dogs , which is exactly what you will be seeing at kennels breeding from Sieger show select WGSL genetics. 
Want to see some dogs in action? IPO trial MAY 7 Recent Updates | Scarborough Select German Shepherd Schutzhund Club
Sat and Sunday 


Close to the GTA (Markham / Stouffville area) --- you should go .


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

carmspack said:


> what happened to the solid black long coat square back ?
> take your time .
> I thought you specifically said that you did not want the arched backs and health issues of show line dogs , which is exactly what you will be seeing at kennels breeding from Sieger show select WGSL genetics.
> Want to see some dogs in action? IPO trial MAY 7 Recent Updates | Scarborough Select German Shepherd Schutzhund Club
> ...


I decided not to focus on color/coat type and to just look for a trustworthy breeder, that ended up being a very important priority (I would edit the post but it's too late) 
Also I keep on getting mixed messages about square backs and arched backs? I read on a forum that it's bad... Then I see another answer that is "it's only because they are stacked so don't turn your back with potentially good breeders etc. Etc. " and now another answer saying it is from a gene. I don't know what to believe at this point? Do you have a clear resource I can educate myself on?
I just want a nice family companion that will be loyal for a good amount of time really 
Thank you for the link, I will be sure to check it out! I've never been to an event before, are we allowed to just show up and I assume there will be visiting seats?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no seats , just the field , maybe a bench or two.


I hope to be there on Sunday with friend Linda Shaw who does have an
authoritative book on the GSD Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


a roach is a physical reality that has nothing to do with stacking -- where you
got that impression was from the sloped back thread . A GSD is supposed to
have a bit of a slope which includes a harmonious line from the withers to the
back and then through the croup.
Stacking is like setting a dog up into a starters block . 
The dog will be perfectly NORMAL . NORMAL.


like this ----- Originally Posted by *Dainerra* View Post 
_I believe the one I shared a couple days ago is the photo that chip is talking about_

__

_ the slope has nothing to do with the back. Think of the stack as a body builder flexing during a competition. It's simply a way to allow the judge to evaluate the various proportions of the dog in regards to the standard._


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

PART TWO since the format didn't allow me to continue on the same page.


A roach back is structural , as I said a physical reality. 
When that dog is standing free without a formal stack , the topline looks like he
has a stuffed back-pack on . The back portion is higher than the withers . 


A strong back is not an inflexible rigid back. 


Here is some information http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


Do not hurry in getting a pup. There are so many GSD available --- part of the problem --
you have everyone and their brother breeding , no particular love or knowledge - no support for you afterwards ---- and on the other hand you have "industrialized" volume breeding capitalizing on "big-name" (easy sell) winner's circle with pups available all the time like 
a quickee-mart . 


Look for the middle . At some point a kennel should be using and advancing their OWN stock - not first generation all the way .
How many litters a year can you have and have quality and quantity time with the dogs , the
pups - to observe , develop , understand them as individuals , make good choice selections and then be available to the owners , out of interest in following the pups throughout their lives .


Pups are cute. Irresistible . Be strong . Go and visit more than ONCE. Go and visit more
than ONE breeder especially if you are new to the breed and have yet to sort out the different groups , (meaning American lines , West German show lines, and working/sport lines).


A pup is more than a cash transaction . Give me da money , tuck dog under arm -- buzz off .


I think a good and caring breeder would want to see you and your family more than once -- put some consideration into placing the pup into his/her future life. They need to get to know you somewhat ! You need to see the pups more than once because you may see them on a snoozy day or a pups-gone-wild day . 


I'm sure more questions will be generated.


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

ahh I see now, I would really love to hear any breeder recommendations from you. We're actually quite close to the event so that can give you an idea on where I live.
The only experience I have had with choosing a breeder was with my cat, but it was one of those 'visit, put in deposit, pick him up' types (though the breeder is excellent and my cat almost acts like a dog, he's great with meeting new people and loves going to the park)

No worries, this is exactly what I am planning to do. I will be visiting breeders until I'm put on a waiting list, and when I do I plan to visit them as often as I can.
There's just so many 'oh stay away from this and that' that makes it a little overwhelming and hard especially for a first time dog owner.
I've also emailed about 4 breeders and surprisingly only 2 got back to me, Grandview kennels looked promising but I would like to hear your opinion before emailing them again.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

kenimn said:


> I've also emailed about 4 breeders and surprisingly only 2 got back to me, Grandview kennels looked promising but I would like to hear your opinion before emailing them again.



Patience, Grasshopper. ;-) Most breeders are working jobs, raising families, training their dogs, working their dogs, dealing with breeding and reproductive issues. . . . checking emails unfortunately comes in around 17th on the list of priorities. I remember recently some new forum members were upset that a breeder wasn't answering their calls/emails. What they didn't know is that she was having to assist with a difficult litter birth and up all night with that while trying to handle family and work. Emails weren't on her radar at the moment.


If you email a breeder, you may not hear back for a while.


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

Emoore said:


> Patience, Grasshopper. ;-) Most breeders are working jobs, raising families, training their dogs, working their dogs, dealing with breeding and reproductive issues. . . . checking emails unfortunately comes in around 17th on the list of priorities. I remember recently some new forum members were upset that a breeder wasn't answering their calls/emails. What they didn't know is that she was having to assist with a difficult litter birth and up all night with that while trying to handle family and work. Emails weren't on her radar at the moment.
> 
> 
> If you email a breeder, you may not hear back for a while.


LOL alright you may be right, I'm a little bit too excited  I'm just so used to getting lightning responses from social media
It's been a week but I shall keep my calm!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what? do you like out of the fire and in to the frying pan ?
you said ---
"I've also emailed about 4 breeders and surprisingly only 2 got back to me, Grandview kennels looked promising but I would like to hear your opinion before emailing them again. "


Learn a few things first . At the moment you wouldn't know a good GSD or a good breeder if they bit or kicked you in the rear.
There is no shortage of GSD pups. 


I know Saphire owned a Grandview dog. PM her . 
There are others which have royally upset several forum members that have seriously sickly dogs and having sold a dog with an UNDISCLOSED , human bite history , which the new owner discovered first hand .
There are others which are pretty much puppy mills . You would think they are quaint local olde-world religious order breeders , meanwhile ........ 












http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...eeder-gta-square-back-long-black-coat-2.html#


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

Sorry, guessed I jumped the gun too soon
I just saw this forum
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/141511-chosing-breeder-ontario.html
Funny how they did not remove the name in the title of a specific reply

OK I will continue my search and I hope it's ok to pm you for breeder help


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

kenimn said:


> Then I see another answer that is "it's only because they are stacked so don't turn your back with potentially good breeders etc. Etc. " and now another answer saying it is from a gene. I don't know what to believe at this point? Do you have a clear resource I can educate myself on?


Listen to Carmen :smile2: and I want to add, ask yourself this...

If the roached back was always the result of how dogs are stacked, why are people stacking them like that? What purpose would it serve to distort the dogs topline in a photo ? :surprise::frown2:


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Listen to Carmen :smile2: and I want to add, ask yourself this...
> 
> If the roached back was always the result of how dogs are stacked, why are people stacking them like that? What purpose would it serve to distort the dogs topline in a photo ? :surprise::frown2:


Yes I trust Carmen, they are very knowledgeable and I'm definitely learning a lot than if I were to just blindly search like I've been doing before

It's really interesting but maybe I still don't understand how making a dog look hunched back gets them a good place in show competitions, it just doesn't look comfortable or aesthetically pleasing! As many threads I have read based on my new search term of 'Roached back' I just can't wrap my head around it.
These slopes and arches and parabolas on a dog  I have never liked math


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"It's really interesting but maybe I still don't understand how making a dog look hunched back gets them a good place in show competitions, it just doesn't look comfortable or aesthetically pleasing! As many threads I have read based on my new search term of 'Roached back' I just can't wrap my head around it."


But they aren't making the dog looked hunch back ---- they ARE . Crufts 2016: 'Sloping back' German shepherd owner claims her life has been 'made a misery' | Home News | News | The Independent


Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: GSDs at Crufts 2016: the continuing travesty


the forum's GOOD conformation folder http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder.html


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## kenimn (May 1, 2016)

That's even worse, it makes my heart sink even more so looking at the video and pictures. Now I'm even more confused as to why they would purposely make them look hunched. It's ugly, unhealthy, and all negative. Stripping a creature from what they are meant to do... running and jumping, not tripping over themselves.


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## Ruben! (Sep 25, 2015)

Hi kenimn!
as everyone has recommended listen to Carmen. If you haven't meet her yet this weekend at the ipo trials you should definitely meet her whenever possible. Lots of knowledge and super friendly! I could listen to her for hours 

Tons of luck in your search.

Cheers,
Ruben


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