# Flanking a dog



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Would any of you purposefully flank a dog hard with a whip during training if you were the decoy?

How about if you were testing the dog after years of no bite training?

I was shown a video that is confusing and disturbing to me. I'd like your opinions.

Thanks,

David


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Is the video available to view.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Is this the Nikko video on YT?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Flanking a dog that has not been involved in bitework for many years is unjustified. I would think the decoy would have tapped into the prey drive first....and then maybe add some pressure depending on how the dog responded. Was this for the decoy's ego? To set the dog up to fail? It makes no sense, IMO to use whip that close 'as a test'


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes, depending on the circumstance and the dog there may be a time and place for this. Pet dogs no. But with LE K9’s there may be a certain situation where this game s practical and necessary. I am not going to get into too much detail on a public forum, I would expound in a private conversation.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> Is the video available to view.


No it isn't. Sorry


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Nigel said:


> Is this the Nikko video on YT?


No. It's a private video someone shared with me.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, depending on the circumstance and the dog there may be a time and place for this. Pet dogs no. But with LE K9’s there may be a certain situation where this game s practical and necessary. I am not going to get into too much detail on a public forum, I would expound in a private conversation.


No need to expound. I was a trainer at VLK. Just looking for opinions considering these particular circumstances.

Dog is 7. Hasn't done any serious bite training since he was 2. The decoy flanked the dog with a whip pretty hard 30 seconds into his first season in 5 years.

I just can't think of a reason to do this other than to make the dog look bad.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Flanking a dog that has not been involved in bitework for many years is unjustified. I would think the decoy would have tapped into the prey drive first....and then maybe add some pressure depending on how the dog responded. Was this for the decoy's ego? To set the dog up to fail? It makes no sense, IMO to use whip that close 'as a test'


Your thoughts mirror mine. I just can't think of a reason to do this other than to make the dog look bad. 

I agree that adding pressure to the dog is fine. If you end up with a real fight, so be it, but there is no need to take it there right from the get go unless you're testing a dog you are going to purchase and put on the street.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I guess a lot of what ~we~ do, is dependant on the individual dog. And the reason for the dog being in front of a decoy. I for some reason picturing the dog leaving the helper and the helper reminding the dog what they're doing. As far as how that was accomplished would be dependant on the circumstances and the individual dog. Sometimes just a "HEY" is all that the dog needs. Sometimes more. Sport dog, PP, LE what is the dog being worked for.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> I guess a lot of what ~we~ do, is dependant on the individual dog. And the reason for the dog being in front of a decoy. I for some reason picturing the dog leaving the helper and the helper reminding the dog what they're doing. As far as how that was accomplished would be dependant on the circumstances and the individual dog. Sometimes just a "HEY" is all that the dog needs. Sometimes more. Sport dog, PP, LE what is the dog being worked for.


I saw the video….dog did not leave or try to get away, but was very confused as to what the helper was doing. His fight drive did not kick in, and the helper then kept putting a bite pillow in front of him, pulling it away, teasing(not prey movement)but never letting him have a bite. Instead he kept cracking the whip. It was a very unfair session for the dog for his first time out in years. Give him a bite to remind him....then that fight drive may have kicked in instead of confusing the dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> I guess a lot of what ~we~ do, is dependant on the individual dog. And the reason for the dog being in front of a decoy. I for some reason picturing the dog leaving the helper and the helper reminding the dog what they're doing. As far as how that was accomplished would be dependant on the circumstances and the individual dog. Sometimes just a "HEY" is all that the dog needs. Sometimes more. Sport dog, PP, LE what is the dog being worked for.


I understand this totally as the handler, but not as the decoy.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

@Onyxgirl that is unfortunate then. We're supposed to be helping the dog. That whole helper thing.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I’m confused on what you mean by flanking with the whip. I apparently use flanking in a different way. My method doesn’t involve a whip or stick.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, depending on the circumstance and the dog there may be a time and place for this. Pet dogs no. But with LE K9’s there may be a certain situation where this game s practical and necessary. I am not going to get into too much detail on a public forum, I would expound in a private conversation.


I agree! Pet dog, no! But true w9rking dog....there are times it is best option. Still, it should only be done by a trainer who has years of reading and training dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I’m confused on what you mean by flanking with the whip. I apparently use flanking in a different way. My method doesn’t involve a whip or stick.


The decoy hit the dog in the flank, side of the belly, with the whip 20 seconds into its first training session in 5 years.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> The decoy hit the dog in the flank, side of the belly, with the whip 20 seconds into its first training session in 5 years.



Gotchya. Honestly, I can't speak in generalities with it. Would I do it? It really depends on the dog and how it was trained originally. Some dogs can come out swinging after years off, and some not so much. Some dogs are super strong, and thrive off stuff like that, and some don't. So it really comes down to the individual dog and training session. It sounds like from those of you who have seen the video, that this dog was not ready for that. But to ask would I ever? Sure, depending on the dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Either the dog doesn't have it in him and/or the helper lacks skill and presence.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

For me it is the doing the flanking on the first session after several years of no training. Sounds like it was more about the decoy's ego than what was best for evaluating or training the dog. Was there a possibility the dog would be put back into service?


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## namsaxet (Dec 17, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Would any of you purposefully flank a dog hard with a whip during training if you were the decoy?
> 
> How about if you were testing the dog after years of no bite training?
> 
> ...


Why would you flank any dog period?
Doug


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Depends on the dog and the situation, Doug. At timea it helps build focus, or amps up drive. Other times, it can help refocus a distracted dog, or shift him from prey to defense. It's all in the timing and delivery LOL!

But it also depends on the dog - what works and what doesn't. Could it be in this case the helper was given bad info? We'll never know cause the video is private.....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

namsaxet said:


> Why would you flank any dog period?
> Doug


It's mostly used in protection to bring a serious side out in a dog. I've seen in done in a couple ways (on a table and on the ground) but each time the point was to show the dog that the man is a threat and put them into aggression thru defense. Some dogs naturally have aggression and are active to a threat and some dogs are "reactive" to threat. Done correctly, the helper/decoy does quite a bit of acting suspicious and the dog reacts to that driving the helper back with his bark making them feel powerful. I've never seen it done with a whip, always the helper flanking them with his hand either on the table or with the handler holding the dog tightly so he can't bite the helper.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Flanking a dog has its purpose depending on the dog and your goals. It needs to be done by someone who knows what they are doing and such a person should be willing to admit they messed up some dogs before they learned how to do this correctly and it took a long time to learn how to do it correctly. Basically, the agitator is doing something similar to a stake out test but it actually becomes training rather than just a test. The dog is tied to a very short tie out. The handler leaves the dog and goes out of sight (but should be able to see the process so he knows what is going on with his dog and the agitator. After about 15 minutes, the agitator who is in hiding about 40 ' from the dog, slowly and suspiciously makes his way toward the dog. It is ideal if there is a line of something like Pine trees that the agitator can creep around in as he approaches the dog. What you want to see is the dog sitting or standing, holding his ground and not showing any avoidance behaviors such as turning away, licking his lips, sniffing the ground, lying down, etc. It is also ideal if you don't see a lot of reactivity while the agitator is a distance away and just beginning to suspiciously approach the dog. He will go very slowly, pausing at times, slowly pushing some pine limbs back and forth and not being in full sight of the dog. It is good to have an additional structure about 20' in front of the dog for the agitator to hind behind better. When he gets about 20' from the dog he will show some slow hand movements and be crouched down and at about that point, the ideal response is for the dog to bow up and/or hit the end of the short tie out and bark aggressively. If you see anything less confident than this, the dog has failed and the training probably shouldn't be continued. Each session afterward is a gradual progression of increasing stress which will eventually graduate to using the whip up close, hitting the dog with the whip, and if possible, flanking. For this to be of value, the dog has to genetically have some aggression that just needs to be brought out more. If as the pressure increases, the dog increasingly shows avoidance, he is washed out of this type of training. If the dog increasingly shows confidence, he will eventually learn that a person can hurt him and by aggressively fighting back, he makes the pressure go away. With the right dog, this will change the character of the dog, making him more confident, more readily aggressive and more suspicious of people, so that you will have to manage the dog in a different, more responsible way. The dog should have some maturity and a solid obedience foundation.


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## namsaxet (Dec 17, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> Depends on the dog and the situation, Doug. At timea it helps build focus, or amps up drive. Other times, it can help refocus a distracted dog, or shift him from prey to defense. It's all in the timing and delivery LOL!
> 
> But it also depends on the dog - what works and what doesn't. Could it be in this case the helper was given bad info? We'll never know cause the video is private.....





tim_s_adams said:


> Depends on the dog and the situation, Doug. At timea it helps build focus, or amps up drive. Other times, it can help refocus a distracted dog, or shift him from prey to defense. It's all in the timing and delivery LOL!
> 
> But it also depends on the dog - what works and what doesn't. Could it be in this case the helper was given bad info? We'll never know cause the video is private.....


I failed as a helper if I didn’t lay the proper foundation.... the dog understanding the helper is an interloper and not his friend who plays tug of war with him. I’ve heard the dog switches between prey and defense for over 40 years which in my personal experience to be fallacious. The drive the dog walks onto the field is the drive he maintains throughout the test. Flanking is nothing more than abuse due to inadequate skills. In my opinion.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You said test. Are you referring to the stake out test or simply working a dog in bite work as a test? If you meant the former, my comments were addressed to using the stake out test but as a training approach and not just an assessment. Your comments are way over simplified. Dogs come in too many different drive packages and the training they receive is as varied as the decoys they are exposed to. A dog could be balanced in prey and defense but the dog could be prey locked due to poor training. Some dog's primary drive is defense, but some of those dogs can be channeled from defense to prey and back again as a way to raise their defensive threshold and build confidence because defensive aggression involves worry/fear. Flanking isn't abuse if done correctly to the right dog for the right reasons. Police dogs need to learn that there are people out there that can hurt them (abuse them.) There are various ways to teach this, but yelling and body language on the part of the decoy isn't enough for many dogs. I agree that genetics are the primary determinate of a dog's response to an adversary, but training also has an impact. It doesn't change genetics, but it can change a dog's perception of others, how he responds, and can build confidence and character.


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## namsaxet (Dec 17, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You said test. Are you referring to the stake out test or simply working a dog in bite work as a test? If you meant the former, my comments were addressed to using the stake out test but as a training approach and not just an assessment. Your comments are way over simplified. Dogs come in too many different drive packages and the training they receive is as varied as the decoys they are exposed to. A dog could be balanced in prey and defense but the dog could be prey locked due to poor training. Some dog's primary drive is defense, but some of those dogs can be channeled from defense to prey and back again as a way to raise their defensive threshold and build confidence because defensive aggression involves worry/fear. Flanking isn't abuse if done correctly to the right dog for the right reasons. Police dogs need to learn that there are people out there that can hurt them (abuse them.) There are various ways to teach this, but yelling and body language on the part of the decoy isn't enough for many dogs. I agree that genetics are the primary determinate of a dog's response to an adversary, but training also has an impact. It doesn't change genetics, but it can change a dog's perception of others, how he responds, and can build confidence and character.


Test as in prufung. Schutzhund IPO etc. Kampftrieb the desired drive for breed suitability. Battle driven. If the dog is locked in prey drive, flanking is temporary at best and is why I consider it abuse. Kampftrieb is forward positive aggression. I am only speaking to German Shepherds. He is a dog that can think. If I teach him what a threat is he can understand what a threat isn’t The Germans were genius in this development of the dog. Flanking, the table and the whip are not needed to accomplish kampftrieb. One of my major mentors was Edgar Kaltenbach “YOU are the trainer of your dog”. As a helper I do understand that often the helper knows more of what the dog needs than the handler and that resources in the US pale in comparison to Germany especially helper wise. The lion can teach us the most about aggression. Unless he is really hungry he seldom eats his mortal enemy the hyena or his competition the leopard and cheetah.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

namsaxet said:


> . One of my major mentors was Edgar Kaltenbach “
> 
> Gotta say......I know little if anything about this discipline but the behavior and passion of this dog in the first minute of this video is great to watch.
> 
> ...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm just going to say that some dogs need to be tested to see that they will perform on the street or in the sandbox. I see no reason to flank a sport dog at all. I certainly see no reason to flank a pet dog coming out of retirement 30 seconds after it walks on the field.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

namsaxet said:


> Why would you flank any dog period?
> Doug


To illicit a response in training. Often, to bring out an aggressive response. Or it can be used as a punishment or to stop a behavior. There are times when “flanking” a dog is needed to get a desired response. With that said, it is rare and rarely needed. It should only be done by an experienced handler or trainer, that can read dogs and do it properly.


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