# Black pup question



## Knight (Sep 7, 2010)

Is it possible for a sable GSD and a black and tan GSD to have a few black puppies? I heard it is possible if they had black somewhere in their lineage. (parent, grandparent etc)?

Why do black pups look so much different (not color wise, their face I mean) from their other litter mates? I'm guessing the definition is shown differently?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yes, a black/tan and sable can have black puppies if BOTH dogs carry the black gene. Black is the most recessive, so the dog has to have 2 copies of the gene for black to show. The only way they get 2 copies of the gene is if both parents have it. 

I have no idea why they look different.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I've never seen a black GSD up close and personal, so I don't have an opinion on whether or not black GSDs look different. But I've read that the genes that control for color may also control for other traits (and not just for appearance but temperament traits as well). 

However, I'm sure that there's someone on this forum who can give a better answer than that.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Knight said:


> Is it possible for a sable GSD and a black and tan GSD to have a few black puppies? I heard it is possible if they had black somewhere in their lineage. (parent, grandparent etc)?
> 
> Why do black pups look so much different (not color wise, their face I mean) from their other litter mates? I'm guessing the definition is shown differently?


I dont get what you mean by black pups look different than their siblings other than color?

I have a black GSD and he looked just like his other siblings


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Was it Robin or Lee that mentioned recently they don't see blacks with masculine heads like the other colors/patterns? 

Why do they have finer defined heads? Does that also apply to bi-colors?

Is it also possible that it could be an optical illusion because they have no other color to accent their faces?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Was it Robin or Lee that mentioned recently they don't see blacks with masculine heads like the other colors/patterns?
> 
> Why do they have finer defined heads? Does that also apply to bi-colors?
> 
> Is it also possible that it could be an optical illusion because they have no other color to accent their faces?



I don't know about that, but I do know that Stark's sire (jet black) has a very masculine head:

(@ 3ish years old)













































I also think that Caroline's Arko ( Arko v Windlied ) has a pretty masculine looking head.

Emmore was right though when she posted:



> Yes, a black/tan and sable can have black puppies if BOTH dogs carry the black gene. Black is the most recessive, so the dog has to have 2 copies of the gene for black to show. The only way they get 2 copies of the gene is if both parents have it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know if it is genetically associated with the color or if "black is slimming". With a black, I hope for extra bone so that they do not look too refined. I have seen some lunk headed black dogs. 

As said, it is recessive and both parents have to carry the gene for the litter to produce blacks. As far as how they are produced, the mating could produce all blacks in a litter, some or none depending on how those genes parse out.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

From what I have seen they do tend to have a much finer head, and finer bone in general. Of course there many exceptions to the rule, my guy has really heavy bone and a huge head, and he is only about a year and was neutered early  This is the only pic I have loaded into photobucket that really shows his head straight on...but I don't think he looks like a typical black...my girl's sire is black and he is much finer, as is Onyx's dam (black), he looks like his B&T sire, structurally.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

This is the first that I have heard of blacks being any different from blk and tans. I haven't seen any difference and I had a blk and he was a very solid and masculine looking dog.


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## ZebsMommy (Dec 4, 2010)

liv said:


> From what I have seen they do tend to have a much finer head, and finer bone in general. Of course there many exceptions to the rule, my guy has really heavy bone and a huge head, and he is only about a year and was neutered early  This is the only pic I have loaded into photobucket that really shows his head straight on...but I don't think he looks like a typical black...my girl's sire is black and he is much finer, as is Onyx's dam (black), he looks like his B&T sire, structurally.


They are beautiful dogs!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Elaine said:


> This is the first that I have heard of blacks being any different from blk and tans. I haven't seen any difference and I had a blk and he was a very solid and masculine looking dog.


I can't find the thread. It was just in the last couple of days and I thought Wolfstraum made the comment but not sure.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I can't find the thread. It was just in the last couple of days and I thought Wolfstraum made the comment but not sure.



Found it, and it was Wolfstraum...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/97387-light-eyes.html#post1989918


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Geez...I NEVER would have looked in that thread! LOL Glad I'm not crazy.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't know, I haven't seen any difference. There's for sure a big difference in the whites, but not the blacks.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

The ones that have a finer head or bone structure are that way because of breeding, not color. It's not any different with the sables, black and tans etc. 
When you consistently breed dogs that have big blocky heads you end up with big blocky head progeny. (not to be confused with block heads, that's all about temperament. ) The same is true when you consistently breed dogs with finer features, it's all about genetics. 

Blacks come in all shapes and sizes, just like any other color. They are harder to get a good picture of though, their features sort of merge together unless you get the right lighting.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is an optical illusion due to the same reasons why people wear black. The black dog in the photo is 16 months old and most definitely a male.  Hmmmmm nice dark eyes too.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Great looking black dogs! Stosh's best friend is a black gsd and I have to say, he does have a much finer head, is very leggy and looks less masculine than Stosh. When they were both younger I thought it was because of his solid color but there are other factors- he was neutered at 5 mos, came from a BYB.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Donovan is one good lookin' guy!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Hannes is Donovans daddy? Sure did carry on the genes!
http://www.vongrunheideshepherds.com/hannes.html


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

What is up with the dog on page 1 (Stark's Sire)? Is his tongue too big for his mouth?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is true that MANY - not ALL - blacks have too fine a head or bone - not all!!! My gosh, Xito Maineiche had the biggest bucket head you could ever find!










and Kutter Landesburg is as masculine as they come!

http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/images/k/kutter/kutter2.jpg


Csabre being a Xito daughter - bred to Kutter - should give me blacks and sables - all with good heads! Maybe I will finally get my black female with a good head - but most males I have looked at do NOT have that headpiece!!


But there was a dog named Frei v d Gugge who many many many blacks carry - he was fine of head and bone, and downgraded by a judge at a Sieger show from a VA rating to a V rating because of it...he is in tons of pedigrees if you look back - and that fine head shows up most commonly in black males - it is HARD to find a black male with a big head - but not impossible!!! My B litter had a ton of Frei - 6? 7? times in 7-9th generations, and although Wolf's head wasn't bad - it sure did not have the "look" of Xito and Kutter's! The heads are there, just uncommon, just like most sables are light to medium and only a small percentage are "black sable" !!

Lee


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

rvadog said:


> What is up with the dog on page 1 (Stark's Sire)? Is his tongue too big for his mouth?



Hey, no picking on the toungue! 

Yes, it does go back in by the way.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Hannes is Donovans daddy? Sure did carry on the genes!
> http://www.vongrunheideshepherds.com/hannes.html


:wub: Donovan & his Daddy!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Recently saw a Pasha Salztalblick puppy about 5 months old who had really dark eyes and what looked to be a potentially very nice head....and tight feet too LOL My other little quirk on conformation!

Lee


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> Recently saw a Pasha Salztalblick puppy about 5 months old who had really dark eyes and what looked to be a potentially very nice head....and tight feet too LOL My other little quirk on conformation!
> 
> Lee


Stark's grandsire is Kaiko vom Salztalblick - German shepherd dog and I love the features he throws into his kids. :wub:


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I only have the link to his page, but look at his head and eyes(well I guess you cant really see his eyes. My female is black and has dark eyes. I think the has a head you would typically see on a female though. The east german male she is bred to has that typical east german blocky head. This is his sire. 

V-Treu v. Schaferliesel SchH1 - Hena-C Kennels, New Hampshire - Pam Lake, Owner

Hope to get some nice big heads, dark pigmentation, and great drives.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Arctic vom Dragonhaus has nice head for all black.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Arctic vom Dragonhaus has nice head for all black.


:wub: Gorgeous!


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