# The new Bundessieger



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Ginoginelli von Karthago - working-dog.eu

That's the new Bundessieger 2011


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I like him....nice bloodlines


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Uh...he's got Fero in him


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

We can argue Fero but honestly, that dog is loaded with all the good stuff.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Is it bad to have Fero in a dog's lineage?

Drop-dead gorgeous dog, btw!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> Is it bad to have Fero in a dog's lineage?
> 
> Drop-dead gorgeous dog, btw!


 
It depends who you ask


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> Is it bad to have Fero in a dog's lineage?
> 
> Drop-dead gorgeous dog, btw!


The problem with Fero is that he continously produces some fo the best and successful dogs out there, which is why he is used so much but that narrows the diversity and catapults you in a genetic bottleneck. To find dogs without Fero is not that easy, you really have to look for them. 

While I do know about the fero problem, as a handler I have no problem with handling a dog that has Fero, however it also supports breeding with Fero so it's kind of like a personal decision. All three of my dogs have Fero.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> The problem with Fero is that he continously produces some fo the best and successful dogs out there, which is why he is used so much but that narrows the diversity and catapults you in a genetic bottleneck. To find dogs without Fero is not that easy, you really have to look for them.
> 
> While I do know about the fero problem, as a handler I have no problem with handling a dog that has Fero, however it also supports breeding with Fero so it's kind of like a personal decision. All three of my dogs have Fero.


Ah, I see. Thanks!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Gino is an AWESOME dog. He has Jenny's dog Dreschler (Gabor's Drigon's littermate) in his pedigree .
And cool thing is that Kuba, with Tobias, is from Jenny and Jogi's breeding program.

Both Jenny and Jogi work jobs full time, train full time (late at night and weekends). Very focused.

Great that Jogi won the other year and now Jenny has .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very nice looking dog and very nice work. For me he has too much of the T litter Narbarschaft(sp), in terms of a breeding choice. Having said that he absolutely comes through whom I think is the best Troll son in Tim Abhfur. This dog produced fabulous working temperament and was an asset in hips in a pedigree. ...Nice dog!!
Now I do think this dog would be fabulous for breeding to a strong Czech female......I'm drooling thinking about that.lol


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Cliff...I get first dibs for my female


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he is gorrrrgeeeous ))


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

dawnandjr said:


> Cliff...I get first dibs for my female


You can both go right ahead Rorie is picky


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks for posting the news .
10 years ago I said Karthago was the kennel to watch , to study how they put a pedigree together . They , and Maineiche had a plan .
What an excellent dog -- his heeling was so precise . I loved watching the intensity but the dog never wrapped around or got in front of her -- beautiful dog, training and display at this competition. Have a look a Ginoginelli Von Karthago B:92 - Video





 --- totally composed and collected dog , in self control , no fidgeting, whining, anticipating - no capping problems.

worried about Fero ? take this dog to a non-Fero female


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ya know....sometimes you see something that you have to just shut up and appreciate....that routine was beauty and superb!!!:toasting:
@ Holland...is Rorie picky or the one picking for her....lol


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I like seeing V - Wolfendoble/Ilja with Fero....anyone know why he is KKL2??? teeth or just luck of the draw with the koermeister???

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

sometimes it's the height why they get a KKL2 but with 64 he's not above the standard.

As much as I like collected dogs, I just don't like watching them hopple on their hooks. We critisize the showlines for that and teach the working lines to go down with their butt, literally walking on their hooks so their frontlegs can fly. That is the only thing I don't like however, the dog is superb, I really like him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

mrs K , I think what you are seeing is the result of a training technique, done on purpose so that the dog drives from the backhand - Joanne Plumb does this training so that the dog is driving into your hand .

Carmen


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Ya know....sometimes you see something that you have to just shut up and appreciate....that routine was beauty and superb!!!:toasting:
> @ Holland...is Rorie picky or the one picking for her....lol


 
...she will likely stay single for life...its the old no one is good enough for my little girl...plus she's got Fero in her


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think that this dog might just be an example of "genetic obedience". 
the pedigree is actually an excellent resource for old herding lines.
Fero is one source through Eda Berglein , Sirk Busecker Schloss, then Troll and Timmy with Askia's Nico Marterstock. Gimmi's Norbo Marterstock - HERE is where I see the value in the pedigree -- the multiple sources of Bernd, Gin Lierberg , through West and DDR (Himpels) and the old herding through Illja and Seigo . Gimmi Abfuhr good combination . Then you have Marko Cellerland , more through Eros Busecker Schloss. 

That is just a quick look . There is lots of Bernd Lierberg . Lots of old herding . Love this pedigree - top and bottom.

-when you see this dog perform you can see the connection between dog and handler working together in happy teamwork. 
I like the performance much better than Javir , who I thought needed the management and supervision and who was always just short of running on his own agenda.

The connection with handler is so smooth . I don't see a break of the dog where you would see the dog expecting a toy, or reward between segments -- he looks like he is truly working for the handler --

Bravo -- looks like a great dog . and congratulations to the young women who seem to be ruling the podium !!!!

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Super dog, super training and handling. Can't get better than that. The perfect trifecta, thanks for posting.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Looks so simple when done right!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, Jason! I'm going to have Karlo watch this over and over with me.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

carmspack said:


> worried about Fero ? take this dog to a non-Fero female


Getting harder and harder and harder to find if you're staying in German-based working lines. And it's becoming true in French, Dutch, and Belgian dogs, too--and certainly true of the working lines here in the U.S. and Canada.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Maybe there's something to the Czech/West cross for the future?????
Nahhhhhh...can't be!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Maybe there's something to the Czech/West cross for the future?????
> Nahhhhhh...can't be!


Well, if they keep breeding them to Fero children, not even the Czech dogs will be "safe"! They're being polluted!!!!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Can someone please post a link to the complete results, or are they not posted yet?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My WG/Czech dog is Fero free, but has Lord in his pedigree.... either/ or?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so I was wondering what is a gino ginelli ?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so can I order a double scoop of Milivanelli Ginoginelli?
lol


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

great dog and fantastic routine. 

But, I would like to see this dog work in protection without all of the obedience, with him being able to open up and go a bit rogue to see what is in there. Bet it could be nice.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I think that this dog might just be an example of "genetic obedience".
> the pedigree is actually an excellent resource for old herding lines.
> Fero is one source through Eda Berglein , Sirk Busecker Schloss, then Troll and Timmy with Askia's Nico Marterstock. Gimmi's Norbo Marterstock - HERE is where I see the value in the pedigree -- the multiple sources of Bernd, Gin Lierberg , through West and DDR (Himpels) and the old herding through Illja and Seigo . Gimmi Abfuhr good combination . Then you have Marko Cellerland , more through Eros Busecker Schloss.
> 
> ...


Yes Carmen, I love that pedigree as well. Even though he's got Fero in him, he's got all the good stuff with the right combinations. 

And yes it is training that he's hoppling on his hooks. That is the only thing I don't like about the heeling technique but that is a personal preference and has nothing to do with the overall performance which was perfect and it really can't get any better than that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackGSD said:


> Can someone please post a link to the complete results, or are they not posted yet?


Here ya go:

Schutzhund Results: Ergebnisse SchH

Agility Results: http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/fileadmin/pdf/veranstaltungen/bsp_2011/listen/ergagil.pdf


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't mind the "collection" type heeling, but I don't personally like that head position. But, either way, it's training. I love his position relative to her (straight, correct, not forging or wrapping ever). The pace changes were fantastic. Also I like how she moves very natural, completely uninhibited by the presence of the dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nothing wrong with having Fero or Troll/Timmy in a pedigree......nothing at all. I just get nervy when I see too much, as I believe those dogs had recessive negatives also.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Nothing wrong with having Fero or Troll/Timmy in a pedigree......nothing at all. I just get nervy when I see too much, as I believe those dogs had recessive negatives also.


Yeah, I know what you mean. I feel the same way. He produces great dogs and with the right combination of other dogs you can have a "Kracher" as we call it. 

However, it also supports using him too much until there is no dog left without him... it's a slippery slope...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is #2 Kuba vom Fluchtweg - German Shepherd Dog

can't find any information on Harro Wunschbachtal # 3 .

Carmen


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Harro Wunschbachtal


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> Harro Wunschbachtal


I LOVE his pedigree!!!:wub:
There is an upcoming litter with that bitch 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/698822/Fenja-vom-Lisdorferland

It's a very good combination and I can't wait to see how those pups work out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Harro Wunschbachtal


 
so that's why this #3 dog placed higher in protection -- double Arek Stoffelblick (Gildo of course)

Half is represented in all 3 pedigrees of the top 3 .

Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I LOVE his pedigree!!!:wub:
> There is an upcoming litter with that bitch
> Fenja vom Lisdorferland - working-dog.eu
> 
> It's a very good combination and I can't wait to see how those pups work out.


Mrs K , I like it too . 3 times Arek. Ina Gard ! and Half again. 
I think you will have strong active aggression , good thing .

Is it just me or are we seeing a trend towards less reactive pedigrees . More power to the aggression.
I see this as a positive step . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> so that's why this #3 dog placed higher in protection -- double Arek Stoffelblick (Gildo of course)
> 
> Half is represented in all 3 pedigrees of the top 3 .
> 
> Carmen


Not only double Arek but also Orly vom Baerenfang. That means tripple Gildo. 

Orly may have never been one of the high ranking dogs out there but if you want power look for Olko and Orly.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Harro von Wünschbachtal - working-dog.eu twice Arek , one Timmy bosen Nachbarschaft 


Fenja vom Lisdorferland - working-dog.eu one Arek ( Nick and Jaro being "same") 
plus one Timmy and one Troll -
you would have Arek 3 times - so of course Gildo and Orly

I think you are going to see real power and grips .

I have a lot of the ingredients found within the top 3 in CARMINA VOM SITTING BULL - German Shepherd Dog

can you give any insight into Ina Gard?

Carmen


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

carmspack said:


> so that's why this #3 dog placed higher in protection -- double Arek Stoffelblick (Gildo of course)


Though this isn't really the forum to discuss bloodlines, was the greatness of Arek due to Gildo or due to the great genetics behind his dam, Ira Körbelbach?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

it's the combination. However, if you look at the dogs that Gildo has produced you will find the same qualities throughout. Gildo was a great strong and powerful producer. That is for sure.


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