# What percentage of GSD owners do Schh?



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

I just got to thinking about how the gsd is the second most registered breed in the USA. But, when I am out and about socializing my dogs, I rarely see another gsd. We are always "odd man out"! 

So, I was hoping when we went to OG INDY that we would see a ton of dogs. Unfortunately, just a few, maybe 30 dogs attended. 

JUst curious as to what percentage of owners actually particpate in the sport..or is it just mainly for those wanting to title dogs for breeding?

As a secondary question..what percentage of gsd's are working line vs show line? I feel like it is way more show line.

Just a few random questions, as my feet got cold playing with the dogs and we came in to warm up!


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

We just started participating in Schh, no intentions of breeding. Started out as me wanting to do something that she'd would enjoy more than a class, now a couple months in I'm hooked. She's a backyard line but doing my homework for when it's time to bring home a working line.

Oddly enough my club is dominated by Giant Schnauzers, there's only two GSDs and I rarely see any when I'm out with her.

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think if it wasn't so expensive and time consuming lots more people would do it. Mine qualified, but I chose to do agility instead. I'm not 100% sure what mine is, but I "believe" she comes from a working line and show line...I think she is 50/50. She has the look of the show line(from what I've been told) and the personality and prey drive are definitely working line, which is why I believe she qualified for schutzhund to begin with. When I took her for her evaluation they did not think she was going to qualify based on her looks...they pretty much said that she didn't look to have any german lines in her, etc. Boy did they change their minds when she got out there....the trainer was pleasantly surprised and I was very proud


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In my area, only about 4 of us do SchH and we all go to different clubs! I know of several local GSD owners who have no clue what SchH even is.
Having dogs that are cut out for it makes it even harder...out of my 3 GSD's, only one has what it takes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In my experience more people are participating for the fun of it (or earning titles) than for breeding. I know way more people that don't breed than those who do.

I think in the USA a very small percentage of GSD owners do SchH. I mean, these days when I go to an event I can name almost every person there and I haven't been doing this long. It's a small, tight-knit community even though the availability of training is very spread out across the nation.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would think that less than 5 -7% of GSD litters registered with AKC are Euro bred to SV or even partially SV standards and probably not even half of those get schutzhund trained....

Lee


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

My obedience trainer's socialization group has at least 16 GSDs who regularly attend to play together in and open field Saturday mornings (out of about 40 total dogs in the group, which also includes a few Malinois other working breeds). All have pretty good basic obedience training. Exactly _zero _do Schutzhund--or any other competitive trials. They are all happy, well-adjusted family dogs. We spend a lot of time with our dogs, enjoying them--just in a different way.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the biggest problem in doing IPO/Schutzhund is the scarcity of 

Clubs
Helper/Decoys
GOOD Helper/Decoys

and the overbundance of ego/drama/BS in clubs

Lee


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think the percentage of GSDs that do Schutzhund is so low it would not even reach 1%. I have barely even met anyone who even knows what it is. (out side of those who I know who are active participants).


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

robk said:


> I think the percentage of GSDs that do Schutzhund is so low it would not even reach 1%. I have barely even met anyone who even knows what it is. (out side of those who I know who are active participants).


Using logical thinking:
A reputable breeder uses dogs that are titled in schh
Very few owners/breeders do schh
thus, the majority of titled dogs must be imported

Right?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

There are very few handler owned/trained (HOT) and even less breeder/handler owned/trained dogs (BHOT) in the USA. I would wager that the majority of show lines are sent to Germany to be titled or are imported titled; especially showline females. Working dogs are not exempt either - many are sent away to trainers for titling or are imported with titles. It is difficult, expensive, and time consuming to title a dog yourself. I would love if there was a placing for HOT/BHOT dogs at the sieger shows - would be interesting to see which dogs place under that criteria. 

A lot of breeders find it MUCH easier to ship a dog away for titling. This is no big secret, but a lot of the buying public don't realize that there are two vastly different ways to get a title. Buy your titles or do it yourself. To me, it really matters if a breeder titles their own dogs. Find breeders that title, train their own dogs. Breeders that keep/train/title their own progeny to BHOT status. Breeders that keep generations of stock and can follow the motherline carefully through generations. Those are the types of breeders I prefer to support because they put in the necessary time/effort into doing it right. When I see a kennel with 10 females from 10 different kennels, all with imported/bought titles, and no progeny carrying the kennel name kept back - I have misgivings about that breeder.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would say maybe 5% and that could be high in this country. Lack of clubs, travel distance, hired sleeves, costs, and the fact that you need a vastly different dog than the majority of puppies born. Also dog sport is looked at differently over here. It is just another sport that people happen to do with dogs (instead of horses, bats, balls, etc). 

I remember reading some where that in Germany 75% of the puppies born are show lines. Maybe 5-10% are working lines and the rest are mixes of the two. 

B/HOT is a lot of work. IMO it is worth that work.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think that the assumption is wrong that most dogs are either working or show. Most are back yard bred. I can open my newspaper right now and there is probably 5 litters of GSDs for sale. Multiply this across every newspaper or Craigslist type publication accross the country and we are swamped. the pet type dogs being purchased by people who have never even heard of a reputable breeder let alone Schutzhund. I think 1 % is too high a percentage.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

robk said:


> I think that the assumption is wrong that most dogs are either working or show. Most are back yard bred. I can open my newspaper right now and there is probably 5 litters of GSDs for sale. Multiply this across every newspaper or Craigslist type publication accross the country and we are swamped. the pet type dogs being purchased by people who have never even heard of a reputable breeder let alone Schutzhund. I think 1 % is too high a percentage.


I am afraid you are correct! But, where are they all and what are they doing? I rarely see a gsd when I am out, rarely at AKC OB/RAlly events, and just a few at the puppy school I help at..and we have 40 puppies a weekend. (mostly labra-doodles...ugh) Hmm. maybe why so many in rescue..nobody trains em or maybe they are too weak-nerved to even do anything! Some must be OK or they wouldnt continually be so popular.

One of the great seven mysteries of the world!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

They are in back yards across America. People are unable to take them anywhere because the are too big, too aggressive and too unruly to be hassled with.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

now now, nothing wrong with backyard dawgs!


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

robk said:


> They are in back yards across America. People are unable to take them anywhere because the are too big, too aggressive and too unruly to be hassled with.


unfortunately this is very very true.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I would also say the percentage is very low for SchH.. And that most of the GSD's bred today in this country, working/show/american lines end up in strictly pet homes where their just pets.. and maybe even antoher small percentage of that that actually do AKC ob, agility, herding, etc.


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## wink-_-wink (Aug 12, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> now now, nothing wrong with backyard dawgs!


 That is one back yard I don't want to roam into with ill intentions!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

ponyfarm said:


> Using logical thinking:
> A reputable breeder uses dogs that are titled in schh
> Very few owners/breeders do schh
> thus, the majority of titled dogs must be imported
> ...


With breeding the way it is in this country, I'd wager an educated guess that the majority of the schutzhund dogs are coming from a very tiny percentage of good breeders breeding dogs with what it takes.

The rest are backyard dogs who never go to puppy class, much less obedience class, and who are kept in houses and backyards as pets. I can not think of a single person I know that is a normal pet owner that has any interest in going to obedience class, much less any kind of sport - even a fun one. They don't seem to understand the point of it, and don't have an interest in anything other than having a couch pet. I'm not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, right now all mine are is pets. But you have to consider the average person vs the average person on THIS kind of forum. A dog is a pet to them, that's it. 

I don't agree that all GSD's that aren't out doing sports and aren't well bred are unruly, aggressive, etc and therefore are left in the backyard. Honestly, most of the people I KNOW with GSD's don't do anything with them, there is a variety of breeding in the mix, and they are all well adjusted pets. That is not to say they are schutzhund material, but the reason you aren't seeing them is because they are pets, not because they are unmanageable beasts who can't be taken out into public.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I would imagine 1% or less. Think about it...GSD's are one of the most popular breeds in country. I live in a city with a population of about 250,000.....500,000 for the entire county............and there are THREE of us in the county that do SchH (in another county altogether!)....and I've probably seen 50 to 100 GSD's in my area between rescue work, people I meet with GSD's, and going to the OB clubs...........so there must be way more than that in households.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It used to be that AKC published stats on numbers of litters registered, number of dogs registered....when GSDs were in 4th place, there were 49,000 litters...........about 120,000 individual registrations.....I remember this because of doing the math for the GSD linked revenue for AKC....

*49000 litters*. Average 5 pups a litter. 250,000 GSDs bred in one year....less than half were advanced to individual registration. Pet people don't send them in often.....Figure what - to be generous maybe 250-300 breeders of Euro show/working dogs in the US.....even at 5 litters per year average - 1500 out of 49,000 litters - the rest - yes BYB/Commercial puppy mills and another small percentage of ASL.....

There are maybe 300 IPO clubs in three organizations - DVG, USCA and GSDCA-WDA....from trial results, there are alot of US Kennel names listed....probably a third of the total - so still alot of imported dogs in the sport....but the US kennel names are showing up more and more.... One thing is that many more experienced and competitive people import young started dogs and do not want to raise puppies....few American breeders routinely grow out pups to sell for the sport...

Lee


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

robk said:


> They are in back yards across America. People are unable to take them anywhere because the are too big, too aggressive and too unruly to be hassled with.


My dogs are not too big, too agressive, and too unruly to take out. I have 5 acres and I keep them home for their own protection. I can't walk in this area too many lose dogs and coyotes. When we do take them out is somewhere away from people and dogs, not places where we will run into others not because I'm afraid of how my dogs will react but because of how others react when they see my dogs.


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## laukaouda (Jun 26, 2002)

Ha! I should have known that I'd be led back to this site when I googled, "percentage people schutzhund 3." I was wondering how many HOT get to their IPO3. Per trial we seem to get 9-10 BHs, 3-4 IPO1s and then maybe 1-2 IPO2 and IPO3. Most people disappear into the schutzhund abyss after the BH. 

I don't think what I understood about Schutzhund is that it not a hobby, it is a passion, and a way of life. It is expensive, time consuming, frustrating and political. 

In California most working breeders are asking $2 - $3k for a well bred pup. I'd say $5-$8k for a well balanced, male with foundation work done. 

We also typically drive 100 - 200 miles to spend 15-20 minutes on the field with our helper. Obedience and tracking lessons vary between $35 - $75 a session. Club annual dues are around $150 - $350 plus club/helper fees $20-$30. Mostly you are on your own, tracking in the mud, doing OB in the park, dreaming about the perfect dumbbell retrieve and back transport. 

Between club fees, gas, helper fees, competition classes, seminars, USA fees, elbows, hips, premium food, supplements, trial costs, don't get me started on vet cost. Yeah it is an obsession. Two weekends ago I got my second HOT IPO3 and I'm already thinking about the next trial, what to do differently with the next pups, researching lines in languages I don't understand, saving money and praying the obsession doesn't leave me.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

I think most are backyard or backard/show, then second most being show lines and least common being working lines. I personally have a working line GSD, and I do not compete in schutzhund. I've considered it, but couldnt find a good schutzhund club. Plus I gotta work on his dog aggression first anyway. My friend has a backyard one that looks and acts like a show line imo. I don't see a huge amount of GSDs out and about nor boarding at my clinic. Most of our GSD boarders are backyards or backyards that look like show lines. I've seen maybe 2 or 3 working lines (one being a police dog).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am on a local GSD fb page and I'd say out of 600+ members 15 of us do IPO, and only a few actually trial and title their dogs. 
I see vids posted of dogs biting sleeve but there isn't any real foundation being laid out. Nobody seems to track other than the few of us that trial. And seldom do they ever post any vids or photo's of obedience. Just the jumping in a helpers face or getting a sleeve fed to them or a semi long bite.
Though, on this side of the state that the page is focused on, there are no clubs. We have to travel at least an hour for good training....and the clubs that are good are at capacity.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

It is interesting to see some perspective on how few GSD owners and breeders actually do IPO. Contrast that to the numbers of folks that complain that IPO is ruining the GSD and the working ability of the breed. Ironic, isn't it?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jim. 

SchH/IPO is expensive, time consuming and requires a huge commitment by the handlers. The latter, IMO, is what most people lack. Of course the distances many have to travel to get good helper work doesn't help along with the helpers that make a living off of their club members. Mostly, though, people don't want to spend the time nor do the work. So, how many people are actually training and trialing (both HOT and not HOT)? Maybe 5000 in the whole country. Of course there are those doing other protection sports so lets be generous and increase the amount to 6000. That is a pretty small percentage when compared to all of the GSD owners.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

2 of the things laukaouda mentioned are what I think thins people out around here. How much you actually are on your own and finding places for tracking. If I couldn't bring my dog to work, I don't know that I'd stick with it.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

My major cost is the drive to club (some 150 miles) once a week. Club dues are pretty reasonable and they include DVG dues. At the club I am with, we are not charged for the helper's work/time. A club member runs down tracking fields for us and they are usually exceptional. Here, I can go down to the fairgounds to track. It wouldn't work with more people but for me, the fairgrounds are fine.
Some people stop with a BH for a variety of reasons - time, health of the dog or handler. Others go on not to a full IPO but to work with things like tracking which their dog likes, excells at and can physically do. With the change in the DVG to allow people to compete in different segments of IPO rather than the full range at every trial, you may see more people competing. (but not necessarily to a full IPO)


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## hemicop (Feb 13, 2016)

I was in a club, helped start a club  &probably did alot of the club jobs any other member would do. It was fun, the training at the time inexpensive & we brought in great seminarists. The problem was the politics & lack of good helpers. At one point we had about 6 helpers but I'd only let 2 work my dog. I don't know what it's like locally here now but from what I heard the politics are even worse. So I stay on the sidelines, occassionally stop by & wait. It's just not the time now for me to get another dog.
A friend in Canada is still very seriously involved in the sport & when the time's right I'll look to him for help. Despite USA's increase in management of its clubs I don't think things have gotten a whole lot better.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The percentage is very low. The percentage of breeders actually training and competing (completing the process, not just training) is minimal, at best....


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

About 12 years ago I joined a Schutzhund club, trained with them for about 18 months and put a BH on my dog. Was working toward a Schutzhund I when my club basically imploded. Training director/helper refused to speak to, much less train, the club president's dogs. Training sessions started to turn into mediation/therapy sessions. Eventually, I just kind of gave up.

The funny thing is that I recently got a new dog and wanted to get back into the sport. I showed up at a local trial recently and basically knew about 1/3 of the participants from when I did the sport a dozen years ago. Ultimately, I think the people who do this sport seriously form a very tight knit community. They all seem to know each other.

So yes, I think the number of people that even try Schutzhund is very small and the percentage that stick with it and actually put Schutzhund I, II and III titles on their dogs a pretty thin sliver of this already tiny percentage.

Also agree that the number of GSD's you actually see "in the wild" is tiny. I take my guy hiking on local trails 6-7 days a week. Over the last two years we have encountered hundreds of different dogs. In all that time I have seen exactly 2 other GSD's, both of which were dog aggressive.:frown2:


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

There is another line of thought.. When not being a backyard dog the other GSD's could be service dogs or PSD.. one of my SAR teams has 3.5 GSD's (1.5 (the point .5 being my gsd/malamute mix) and my girl) certified. There are 3 Goldens, 1lab,1 border collie and 1 Australian cattle dog. Other SAR teams I've seen have quite a few GSD's as well... It is an expensive venture as well... Maybe if IPO wasn't so expensive and scary for the average lay person (scary in that anything new is scary, but more so when your dog is being judged) , more people would try it... 

Interesting topic


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

It can be tough finding a good club. For the most part, we have one. Yes, every now and then we shake our heads at the bizarre behavior of other club members and I am sure they do the same about what we do. But when we host a trial and get to see some of the folks from other clubs...we are so glad to be in the club we are in. 

One of our trial judges said that there were actually 4 portions to IPO training. tracking, obedience, protection and traveling. When my husband and I bought a home I was actually excited that we were moving so much closer to our club! Never mind good schools, shopping or doctors. well, I guess those count too.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The fourth phase is the hardest. I travel 2 hours every week to train. I hate putting that time into it because the fuel companies are the ones profitting. And my brain is fried driving into the sun on the way home. I have to make a priority of staying awake and clear headed. This is my 'crate' processing time but 2 hours processing is a bit over the top.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> The fourth phase is the hardest. I travel 2 hours every week to train. I hate putting that time into it because the fuel companies are the ones profitting. And my brain is fried driving into the sun on the way home. I have to make a priority of staying awake and clear headed. This is my 'crate' processing time but 2 hours processing is a bit over the top.


Im so glad my trainer is only 20 minutes away. As i progress, i think this will make a world of difference.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> The fourth phase is the hardest. I travel 2 hours every week to train. I hate putting that time into it because the fuel companies are the ones profitting. And my brain is fried driving into the sun on the way home. I have to make a priority of staying awake and clear headed. This is my 'crate' processing time but 2 hours processing is a bit over the top.


this makes it tough when members want to socialize afterwards. it is easy to forget how hard it is to make that drive when you are done for the day.


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