# Theory vs Reality......?



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think we all agree that it is nice when the two above topics are in sync.....yet often these days in the breed the gulf has gotten increasingly wider. With the advent of internet, slick advertisement, and commercialism, the breed is sold and marketed today more on theory than reality! That's my opinion. I look at the way people today judge breeders and dogs and often see the disparity. 
Let's look at things that are not only confusing, but actually misleading to many. The German Shepherd....a working dog. In Europe the majority of dogs that receive KK1(recommended for breeding) are no longer working or competing, albeit they supposedly have the superior structure to DO work. Then the dogs that are KK2,(suitable for breeding), which have some structural or mental faults are the ones generally seen doing work or competing. Or....does the hip certification of parents insure better hips for progeny....in theory ...yes, but in reality there are so many other factors that enter in, that people can produce just as good hips without the certification knowledge(still they must X-ray their dogs), if they know the family history and siblings; and more importantly they can still produce just as much bad hips by using certified dogs if they DON'T know this information....that's part of the reason so many people have continued to get dyplastic dogs from both parents certified. Or titles....what do they really tell me about the dog's temperament???? Or do they tell me more about the trainer and the commitment to training by the trainer???? Of course this won't pass in the genes. Does it really help in breeding....more reality or more theory?????? And I love the rationale that working the dog allows the owner to know the strengths and weaknesses of the dog....Okay that translates into making better breeding decisions...right?! But when the specific dog being trained often is not representative of the rest of the litter, in terms of strength of character and work....then is that dog going to pass what it is or what it is made up of,(which is the same genes that the other 5 pups have, that are not capable of attaining a title).....theory or reality????
I guess what I am asking, is are we judging the breed and breeders more on theory or reality.....because most of the examples I have given are not exceptions in occurring, but rather frequently seen these days....and if we are assessing things faulty....how can we acheive a consistent reliable end result? Again just curious.


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

re: strengths/weakness of littermates, in this country it can be so hard to know. My male (SchH3, KKL 1)is a balanced and very powerful dog in the work, praised by all, and said to be the kind of dog that should be used for breeding. He had one littermate that has a BH. My male sired one litter. I took a puppy and worked that dog, another was being worked as well (BH for sure, don't know if it ever was titled). The other 2 pups weren't worked. Hard to get balanced info sometimes since so many go only to pet homes and distances are such that they are never seen again. There is not a depth of knowledge, commitment to learn. Through the years I've wanted to breed some litters. It's not so easy. I've had few dogs I'd consider breedable, and then health issues or lack of strength in temperament precluded that. I think (I know) many would breed what I would not. Too many breeding, not enough "breeders".
Sue


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

That is where Germany and Czech republic are still far ahead of the game in terms of breed knowledge, compared to the U. S. By their Breed Clubs having direct links with the registration process,(SV), in order to have adequate registration of the litter; the dog must have "original pedigree" that will list dog, tattoo or microchip, hip status, pertinent information of the like on parents, plus the listing of siblings of parents and their titles and hip status. This is minimal information needed to assist you in making good decisions in the breed. The GSDCA could partner up with the AKC to make sure all registered GS had as much of this information as available,(shoot they can partner up with AKC when it comes to not allowing dog sports with biting), so they could probably work this out. But the reality is these types of things really determine whether the breeding or the hips, etc have odds stacked in favor....not the top of the iceberg we use to determine breed/hip/work suitability. Actually, as I posted above, many of these things have ceased to be indicators of what they were originally intended to indicateand in some cases give FALSE indications. So should breeders or dogs be judged by these things alone????? Does America have the passion to seek this type of comphrehensive information for breeding, or are we comfortable with what we have so that people with 15 minutes in the breed can instantly post what is good or bad BASED on testing and labels that may or may not give an accurate pictures???(Not picking on people with 15 minutes in the breed, its just that I think we all would agree that more knowledge helps a breeder make better decisions, then it stands to reason that more knowledge(reality knowledge), would help people make better judgements on what is good or bad in terms of breeders/dogs)...Whaddya think???
Because if what I posted above is correct????Then it would stand to reason that the slow result would be the eroding of the quality of the breed in working and structure due to many decisions made on a lack of enough good information.....have we seen this in the breed?????


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I can go into the garage with a car and a toolbox, close the door, and make a bunch of noise. When I open the garage door the result may be a high-performance, finely tuned automobile, or you may have to call the insurance company because I just spent the last several hours throwing wrenches and hammers at your vehicle. 

I think the same can be said of dogs and titles, certs, trials, etc. You wouldn't want to go to a mechanic who doesn't have a lift or a basic toolbox. But just because he owns those things doesn't mean that, when the garage door closes, he won't put your car under the lift and squash it (I've seen that happen by the way. Oops). 

If I go to a mechanic shop and all he has is the 30-piece toolset from Wal-Mart, it makes me wonder about the quality of work. It's entirely possible that he's an awesome mechanic and has done wonderful things with that Wal-Mart tool set. In fact, he may be a lot better than the guy in the next stall who has the fancy lift and tool box the size of a Volkswagon. All things being equal, though; you expect a mechanic to have basic tools and you expect a breeder to have basic titles/certs. The only question now is does he know how to use them?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

It is easy for someone new, or relatively new, to go through a checklist: OFA? Titles? Works own dogs? etc.
These are simple yes/no questions that may indeed give the buying public.... and the breeders..... A false sense of security.

Most people really do not feel the need to learn about things in-depth. And certainly not to learn about the "other" side. 
I mean, how many people keep up with the Huffington Post and Fox news?

I feel (and hope) that there will always be a group of breeders/fanciers willing to look at it all, with a very strong knowledge base and a discerning eye. Sometimes these people are disparaged. Thankfully, many offer their knowledge to those willing to learn.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Its tough for us (pet owners) to go out and actually see the dogs in action. I wouldn't even know where to start to look for a Schutzhund trial, and then its probably a good 2-3 hours away from my residence. Am I willing to drive that much just so that I can get a glimpse of some dogs and maybe I'll decide that I want one from that line or this line?

I have figured out (after training at a GSD club) how much nicer it is to actually see a potential sire or dam in action and figure out from there that I want one. But I would have never been at the club without owning a GSD first. Many people will call our club asking about available puppies, they get sent to the breeder and talk with the breeder. They don't actually show up to see any dogs "at work." And we just train AKC obedience/rally/conformation. In the end, most dogs are pets, its scary to think that some dogs cut out for Schutzhund are going to pet homes because people "do their research" on the internet and it points them to a reputable breeder that breeds for Schutzhund. I wish there were more people that went to clubs/trials to look for dogs, I've already picked out my next pup's dam from training with her, but I just don't see it happening. Titles will be looked at, dogs will be chosen, and the breed will overall get watered down. There will still be prime examples, but when its the second most popular AKC breed, its kind of hard to keep it from becoming a little more "people friendly"


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I can go into the garage with a car and a toolbox, close the door, and make a bunch of noise. When I open the garage door the result may be a high-performance, finely tuned automobile, or you may have to call the insurance company because I just spent the last several hours throwing wrenches and hammers at your vehicle.
> 
> I think the same can be said of dogs and titles, certs, trials, etc. You wouldn't want to go to a mechanic who doesn't have a lift or a basic toolbox. But just because he owns those things doesn't mean that, when the garage door closes, he won't put your car under the lift and squash it (I've seen that happen by the way. Oops).
> 
> If I go to a mechanic shop and all he has is the 30-piece toolset from Wal-Mart, it makes me wonder about the quality of work. It's entirely possible that he's an awesome mechanic and has done wonderful things with that Wal-Mart tool set. In fact, he may be a lot better than the guy in the next stall who has the fancy lift and tool box the size of a Volkswagon. All things being equal, though; you expect a mechanic to have basic tools and you expect a breeder to have basic titles/certs. The only question now is does he know how to use them?


I love your analogies here.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> And I love the rationale that working the dog allows the owner to know the strengths and weaknesses of the dog....Okay that translates into making better breeding decisions...right?! But when the specific dog being trained often is not representative of the rest of the litter, in terms of strength of character and work....then is that dog going to pass what it is or what it is made up of,(which is the same genes that the other 5 pups have, that are not capable of attaining a title).....theory or reality????


I know we all discuss the merits of training and titling and pedigrees to death but I think this bit from Cliff's post is super important and something that often gets overlooked. As someone who is just as involved with show lines as I am with working lines I see this all the time, people breeding based on the performances of one dog and using that to make assumptions about the parents, the progeny, or the littermates. Like "Oh, well X-Dog is fabulous at SchH so it MUST be that linebreeding 5,5,5,5 bla bla bla on so-and-so VA-Dog produces great working temperament!!" Um, no, that is just ONE dog out of the hundreds even thousands of progeny or grand-progeny. Besides the kennel blindness and the lack of priority for true working temperament, I think this is a big reason why in general the west German show lines just sink deeper and deeper into the hole. I don't want this to be a show vs. working thing, it's just that that piece of Cliff's post stood out to me personally. I have a show line dog I've decided *not* to breed, based on some issues with the littermates. 

With this in mind though I think Sue makes a good point that sometimes it's difficult to really know what you'll get unless you try since it seems most dogs end up in pet homes anyway. I like to think of my young working line as a nice working dog and is from a good (IMO) working line breeder with many dogs doing all sorts of sport and work, but the reality is that as far as I know only two dogs in the litter are seriously pursuing sport/work and the rest are pets for active homes. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but I can see where it is difficult for sport and work enthusiasts to get a full picture of their breeding program with so few dogs being put to the test.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Its tough for us (pet owners) to go out and actually see the dogs in action. I wouldn't even know where to start to look for a Schutzhund trial, and then its probably a good 2-3 hours away from my residence. Am I willing to drive that much just so that I can get a glimpse of some dogs and maybe I'll decide that I want one from that line or this line?
> 
> I have figured out (after training at a GSD club) how much nicer it is to actually see a potential sire or dam in action and figure out from there that I want one. But I would have never been at the club without owning a GSD first. Many people will call our club asking about available puppies, they get sent to the breeder and talk with the breeder. They don't actually show up to see any dogs "at work." And we just train AKC obedience/rally/conformation. In the end, most dogs are pets, *its scary to think that some dogs cut out for Schutzhund are going to pet homes *because people "do their research" on the internet and it points them to a reputable breeder that breeds for Schutzhund. I wish there were more people that went to clubs/trials to look for dogs, I've already picked out my next pup's dam from training with her, but I just don't see it happening. Titles will be looked at, dogs will be chosen, and the breed will overall get watered down. There will still be prime examples, but when its the second most popular AKC breed, its kind of hard to keep it from becoming a little more "people friendly"



Why is this "Scary"?! I don't want to compete because my life doesn't have the extra time for me to commit to a club right now. It certainly doesn't mean I couldn't, or don't have the knowledge to handle a dog that could compete in the sport of Schutzhund. The dog I have now is capable of competing. That's disparaging to quality pet owners everywhere. There are plenty of people on this forum themselves who have sport dogs AND "house" dogs. If a dog feels fulfilled and has a job to do, most dogs can be satisfied. Not every dog, obviously there are working lines that need more than a pet home to bring out every quality to it's fullest. But Schutzhund is hardly the be all, end all. And even the most driven dog would not know what it is 'missing' and if handled properly, would still live a complete life in competent hands, whether it competed in SchH or not.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I love your analogies here.


+1 Emoore has a gift for those.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> Why is this "Scary"?! I don't want to compete because my life doesn't have the extra time for me to commit to a club right now. It certainly doesn't mean I couldn't, or don't have the knowledge to handle a dog that could compete in the sport of Schutzhund. The dog I have now is capable of competing. That's disparaging to quality pet owners everywhere. There are plenty of people on this forum themselves who have sport dogs AND "house" dogs. If a dog feels fulfilled and has a job to do, most dogs can be satisfied. Not every dog, obviously there are working lines that need more than a pet home to bring out every quality to it's fullest. But Schutzhund is hardly the be all, end all. And even the most driven dog would not know what it is 'missing' and if handled properly, would still live a complete life in competent hands, whether it competed in SchH or not.


There are some people where it works out just fine, but there are many others that don't/won't make the sacrifices you make in order to keep your dog active and fulfilled. I'm talking about your average American dog owner, who doesn't give their dog a job, and maybe walks them twice a day. I'm basing this off of what I'm seeing in our puppy/beginner classes at my club. We are not a schutzhund club, but people bring a working line GSD (I have one too) and they can't handle it at 6, 8, 10, or even 12 months of age. It's just too much dog and they won't make the sacrifices it needs.


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

* _And I love the rationale that working the dog allows the owner to know the strengths and weaknesses of the dog....Okay that translates into making better breeding decisions...right?! But when the specific dog being trained often is not representative of the rest of the litter, in terms of strength of character and work....then is that dog going to pass what it is or what it is made up of,(which is the same genes that the other 5 pups have, that are not capable of attaining a title).....theory or reality????_

I often think were looking at the difference in quality among European and American dogs because of the population density vs size of geographical area of reputable breeders/ competitors in each region. The major countries that promote the working German Shepherd consist of Germany, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Belgium, and the Neatherlands. The United States is immensely larger than all of those countries combined and I think that with distance between clubs and events, the cost and time of traveling really deters a lot of people from taking the sport seriously with their dogs. Plus, it seems that the nature of the sport is an extremely expensive one to begin with, so add additional costs of hotels and gas for a weekend club seminar or trial, you talking a major monetary investment most people aren't prepared to commit to. Finding quality working homes for all the working candidates in a litter is just impractical for a lot of US breeders. When considering the idea about what direction I eventually want to go with my own dog (to breed or not to breed), one of the biggest hesitations I have is the fact that I don’t know how her littermates have turned out at this point. As far as I know, I don’t believe any are being actively worked, which makes me question ‘is her success as a working dog the result of good genetics or good training?’ (because trust me, I have an excellent trainer). At this point, it doesn’t matter to me how good she is, how much I like her, or what working titles she obtains, I want to know how the other dogs in her litter have turned out before thinking any further about breeding her later in life. Objectivity from experienced evaluators, those not trying to satisfy an agenda, will also do wonders for the breed, so it seems. 

On that topic, I also think there a is complete lack of accountability on behalf of the majority of American breeders because the general public doesn’t typically demand hip and elbow certifications on a prospective puppy and they certainly don’t have the knowledge base to understand nerve base, thresholds, temperament, etc of parents. Most people I come across think my oversized fear aggressive ASL is “protective” and that its ideal for the breed standard, and even when I try to explain her for what she is, they don’t understand or care enough to learn. When trying to explain that my WGWL/ French bitch is in fact more correct for what the working dog *should* be, people tend to disagree because she doesn’t meet that conceptualized image that they’ve learned the GSD to be. I think if more people in this country understood what these dogs *should* be, they would put more value on health and temperament, thus holding breeders more accountable for what they’re producing. Though idealistic, I think that direction, as well as a drastic decrease in overall popularity, would be the first step in greatly improve overall breed, hodgepodge BYB dogs included.

_With the advent of internet, slick advertisement, and commercialism, the breed is sold and marketed today more on theory than reality!_

Well, that’s more a social problem I think. Good font, good website format, and a good color scheme can sell anything, not limited to just dogs. People need to do their research on the things they invest their money into and not just jump on the best sale price, newest fad, or best marketing ploy.

Something else that drives me crazy when reading this board… Cant stand how people recommend breeders to people without ever having worked or even met the dogs. Its one thing to own, work, or have met a dog from a particular breeder and testify to the type of dog you _think_ they produce, but for most people just listing off dogs from people with nice websites and titled dogs, labeling them as ‘reputable’, I think it perpetuates a lot of the problem this post is trying to address. I’m not comfortable publicly recommending breeders to strangers, regardless of their reputation, when I’ve never even seen any of their dogs. Just my (green) opinion.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Quote
Something else that drives me crazy when reading this board… Cant stand how people recommend breeders to people without ever having worked or even met the dogs. Its one thing to own, work, or have met a dog from a particular breeder and testify to the type of dog you think they produce, but for most people just listing off dogs from people with nice websites and titled dogs, labeling them as ‘reputable’, I think it perpetuates a lot of the problem this post is trying to address.
End quote

Agreed! There was a recent thread where several posters recommended a breeder because that breeder "works" their dogs. I have met 4 dogs from that kennel on different schutzhund fields.... And they all had rather significant nerve issues.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree as well. I've seen people recommend my dogs' breeders based on no experience with my dogs or my breeders but just seeing/hearing about MY dogs. I always find that rather funny. I'm not saying I wouldn't recommend my breeders but I'm not going to use my dogs as marketing tools and honestly don't like it when other people do. Maybe it's supposed to be flattering but I don't feel that way. If people want my honest opinion about my dogs and the breeders, then PM me and I will share/help/make recommendations. Otherwise I think it's still to read stuff like, "Well I've never had a WL/SL dog but if I did I'd get one from so-and-so because so-and-so has one and it looks nice." It's one thing to keep your own list of breeders you're interested in for the future but it's another thing to publicly make recommendations.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> All things being equal, though; you expect a mechanic to have basic tools and you expect a breeder to have basic titles/certs. The only question now is does he know how to use them?


:thumbup: 

It sounds like the debate between the "old timer" owner/breeder of pit bulls vs. the newer school (what's the term for that!?) when the old timer will say "Oh I don't need to health test/hip test because my dogs are healthy or they could not run around."

So obviously, to them, the fact the dog trots around the property, or jumps up in a car, that's a good enough "health test". 

I saw that argument in another thread last night here, and I do not buy it. Dogs are amazingly stoic and can be in pain without showing it.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I never understood why people say dogs are so amazingly stoic. Sure when the chips are down, they can run on broken legs, but when the moment passes, they are some of the biggest wusses  I've had some tough ass bitches that could take a pipe to the head and not blink. Step on their toe in the kitchen and you'd think they were about to die


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

abakerrr said:


> Something else that drives me crazy when reading this board… Cant stand how people recommend breeders to people without ever having worked or even met the dogs. Its one thing to own, work, or have met a dog from a particular breeder and testify to the type of dog you _think_ they produce, but for most people just listing off dogs from people with nice websites and titled dogs, labeling them as ‘reputable’, I think it perpetuates a lot of the problem this post is trying to address. I’m not comfortable publicly recommending breeders to strangers, regardless of their reputation, when I’ve never even seen any of their dogs. Just my (green) opinion.


:thumbup:

I also have never understood how people can buy puppies from breeders they have never met out of dogs they have never seen in person. I would have never dreamed of buying my first dog this way. Heck, I have only gotten one puppy in all these years where I had never met the dam of the litter and for many of my pups I also knew the sire. Buyers really need to get off their computers and go out and meet dogs and meet breeders. 

Sorry, got a bit off topic.

The advantage the European's have is they are much better able to keep track of their puppies. I remember when Treue's breeder took her mom to Germany to breed to her sire (a Mink son). At the club there were a number of Mink kids and also kids by Treue's sire. It gave the breeder a very good feel for what this dog was producing and what he could expect from these lines. Here a breeder or prospective puppy buyer is lucky if there are one or two dogs from a litter that stays in the area and most stud dogs, even the good ones, sire few litters.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

crackem said:


> I never understood why people say dogs are so amazingly stoic. Sure when the chips are down, they can run on broken legs, but when the moment passes, they are some of the biggest wusses  I've had some tough ass bitches that could take a pipe to the head and not blink. Step on their toe in the kitchen and you'd think they were about to die


the only time my Jax is stoic is when she has her brain on the ball or frisbee. Any other time, she's the biggest baby. My vet said GSD's are the worst criers of any breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So with the newer school of thought and use of certs, titles, (show and working), tests, etc....I should be able to make a natural inference that the breed is in better shape today in terms of health, temperament, and structure (with the new school).....then it ever has, and certainly better than it was when people didn't rely entirely on these methods......Right???
I don't knowwwww? but maybe there are many dogs somewhere that I am not seeing!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't buy into all these new health certs. For me they do NOT substitute for a breeder's knowledge of their lines and the health. Many of these new tests are not truly proven yet. I don't like dogs being marketed because they passed a dozen tests (several of which are obvious to the human eye). I'd rather ask the breeder about their dogs' health, whether certain things that might be a deal-breaker for me have ever cropped up. I see way too many people inferring that breeders who don't do all these new tests are trying to hide something or just don't care about health. I've also had people tell me that I should ask to see health records when visiting a breeder. Seriously? I am of the mind that a dog goes to the vet for a reason (like a rabies shot, heartworm test, or some other illness or injury). I'd rather see a breeder with hearty, healthy dogs that aren't running off to the vet every 6 months just because that's what buyers are supposed to demand.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I also have never understood how people can buy puppies from breeders they have never met out of dogs they have never seen in person. I would have never dreamed of buying my first dog this way. Heck, I have only gotten one puppy in all these years where I had never met the dam of the litter and for many of my pups I also knew the sire. Buyers really need to get off their computers and go out and meet dogs and meet breeders.


It's not that simple Lisa. The breeders that I was interested in were hundreds of miles away. So even if you took the time to make those drives to see and meet, what will the average person learn.

All the breeders will probably be plesant and they are not going to say anything bad about their dogs. In the short time you may have unless the dogs are psycho or limping there is not much to tell. Puppies are all cute so that doesn't help.

I'm talking pet owner, which is what the vast majority of buyers are. 
I bet if you found some puppies at the pet store of unknown origin and substituted them for the litter from the titled parents the average buyer would not know the difference.

So trust is the issue and doing some homework but it is still a crap shoot.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> So with the newer school of thought and use of certs, titles, (show and working), tests, etc....I should be able to make a natural inference that the breed is in better shape today in terms of health, temperament, and structure (with the new school).....then it ever has, and certainly better than it was when people didn't rely entirely on these methods......Right???
> I don't knowwwww? but maybe there are many dogs somewhere that I am not seeing!!


I think this is very hard to say because the only dogs we remember from the past are the winners, the best of the best. No one really knows what was going on with GSDs of the common people from 30-40 years ago. Now there are statistics to show how unhealthy the breed is, and there are forums where people ask each time their dog has some sort of issue. I don't know if the "unhealthy" dog thing started as soon as we got on the internet and started buying dogs just on their titles/certs.

I also see a problem with the "old school" of only breeding when you know the whole line. You will start to just breed dogs that are hip checked and titled for generations and at some point they will all cross. I understand why its bad to breed a dog that is currently titled and certified, when none of his pedigree is and the problems that come from that, but to expect people to just breed those top of the line dogs will at some point lead to a bottleneck.


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> So with the newer school of thought and use of certs, titles, (show and working), tests, etc....I should be able to make a natural inference that the breed is in better shape today in terms of health, temperament, and structure (with the new school).....then it ever has, and certainly better than it was when people didn't rely entirely on these methods......Right???
> I don't knowwwww? but maybe there are many dogs somewhere that I am not seeing!!


So way back, before there were X-rays, OFA, genetic screening tests, I think the true testament to a dogs health was its ability to work and keep up with the physical demands asked of it as a true 'working breed'. I guess in a lot of ways you didn't need health testing to prove good health because your dog walked the walk. With the population explosion of GSDs over the past 100 years, i suspect that the supply met the high demand with the production of lots of mediocre dogs and lots of subpar crosses to produce sheer numbers. I think at this point health certifications are useful tools when utilized correctly, but again, need to know how to use them. I think they need to be considered with regards to a particular line of dogs and not just a particular individual.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> I understand why its bad to breed a dog that is currently titled and certified, when none of his pedigree is and the problems that come from that, but to expect people to just breed those top of the line dogs will at some point lead to a bottleneck.


But the right dog for my bitch may not be the right dog for your bitch, or your breeding program. Therefore they will be of different pedigrees, and have different strengths and weaknesses. We try to build on the stregnths and counteract the weaknesses, regardless of what "flavor" of GSD we breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Abakerr.....:hug:....you are getting the drift for sure! 
@ Martemchik.....there are people on this forum that remember the GS in general thirty to forty years ago.....and can compare that to what they see today. Because some weren't around doesn't mean that information doesn't exist firsthand. I would think the key would be that you had to be extensively involved in the breed then and extensively involved in the breed now.
Regardless, I just want people to examine the logic of some of their beliefs and how well they marry up with what is actually out there. For some it will be eye opening, for others as they see more and more of the breed they can compare what they see with the different perspectives and come to some conclusions about the validity of some of the theories. Maybe the theories are all right and working to greatly improve the breed....if this is the case it will be reflected in the end result of what is consistently produced these days and people will observe it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I don't think it's the optimum system; but I haven't been able to come up with a better one and nobody would listen to me if I did

Seems like a lot of the breeds that were developed during the Victorian era are disintegrating. Maybe 100 years, give or take, is the effective lifetime of a breed before it starts to fragment and break apart from the inherent problems of breeding relatives.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

We had a Troll v Richterbach (sp) granddaughter when I was a kid. I still compare every dog I breed to her temperament, and none have equaled her, but I keep trying. That was back in the '60's.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jack's Dad said:


> It's not that simple Lisa. The breeders that I was interested in were hundreds of miles away. So even if you took the time to make those drives to see and meet, what will the average person learn.
> 
> All the breeders will probably be plesant and they are not going to say anything bad about their dogs. In the short time you may have unless the dogs are psycho or limping there is not much to tell. Puppies are all cute so that doesn't help.
> 
> ...


I got my first GSD before there was an internet. That meant I went and saw litters of puppies, met breeders, talked to breeders, saw dogs and did a LOT of research (on the breed mostly). I also, just like when I bought my first horse, got some input from impartial experienced dog people. I also used my gut instincts when I looked at some litters and I saw things that just didn't seem right. I ignored the breeder's excuses and kept looking. Yes, of course, in the end it does come down to trust in the breeder to be honest and to pick the right puppy, but before that the buyer needs to get out and become educated. Funny, when people had to do this to get a puppy I saw far fewer dogs with issues and a lot more happy dog owners. People have gotten lazy (I am generalizing) and no longer want to do the foot work. They put more effort into buying a car than an animal that will live with them for the next 10-15 years.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> So way back, before there were X-rays, OFA, genetic screening tests, I think the true testament to a dogs health was its ability to work and keep up with the physical demands asked of it as a true 'working breed'. I guess in a lot of ways you didn't need health testing to prove good health because your dog walked the walk. With the population explosion of GSDs over the past 100 years, i suspect that the supply met the high demand with the production of lots of mediocre dogs and lots of subpar crosses to produce sheer numbers. I think at this point health certifications are useful tools when utilized correctly, but again, need to know how to use them. I think they need to be considered with regards to a particular line of dogs and not just a particular individual.


A few problems with this though - it's not just so black and white. 

Dogs who didn't make the cut (back then) were culled. The breed was improved that way, I'm sure, but it wasn't just excellent dogs being churned out, I'm sure there were plenty who didn't or couldn't make the cut and were taken out of the gene pool (killed). 
While this improved lines and improved breeds, dogs got into the hands of people who were not so careful about breeding and today in American more than ever, it's about putting these animals into the hands of consumers - we the public. 
And you've got a billion people out there wanting their share of the market = $$. 

Look at almost any breed and you can see the results of overbreeding and less than careful breeding. 

Only by restricting breeding and ownership would we ever be able to repair the harm the overbreeding/uncareful breeding has done. And that's not likely to happen.

Ironically - the Portuguese Water Dog people pride themselves for being extremely closed or shut down in terms of breeding - only the best of the best, and "all breeders" are to adhere to their Code of Ethics.
Problem is - a few years ago a PWD wound up in our rescue and the PWD people flipped! Which is how I know about how anal they are and how few breeders are out there supposedly. 
Well they hounded me (pardon the pun) check for a tattoo! Chip! Anything!
Nope. No nothing like that and no papers with which to trace her. So I started looking and found a few other "byb" type sites where people have been breeding them outside this COE.
Happens to every breed. Unfortunate as that is, it's part of living in the land of the free and home of the brave.



> People have gotten lazy (I am generalizing) and no longer want to do the foot work. They put more effort into buying a car than an animal that will live with them for the next 10-15 years.


But that's just it - many don't keep more than 10-15 months, let alone _years_. The going gets rough, have a kid, move, etc. OR just get tired of the dog, and it's out the door. 
Disposable, fast food society


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

lhczth said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I also have never understood how people can buy puppies from breeders they have never met out of dogs they have never seen in person. I would have never dreamed of buying my first dog this way. Heck, I have only gotten one puppy in all these years where I had never met the dam of the litter and for many of my pups I also knew the sire. Buyers really need to get off their computers and go out and meet dogs and meet breeders.


There is only one reputable breeder in what I consider driving distance from me and I do not like the what she if producing. Most people, locally, that are familiar with her dogs consider them unstable.

If I insisted on seeing the parents of a prospective pup in person, then I would have a choice of this breeder or backyard breeders.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *lhczth*
> :thumbup:
> 
> I also have never understood how people can buy puppies from breeders they have never met out of dogs they have never seen in person. I would have never dreamed of buying my first dog this way. Heck, I have only gotten one puppy in all these years where I had never met the dam of the litter and for many of my pups I also knew the sire. Buyers really need to get off their computers and go out and meet dogs and meet breeders.


Some breeders on here know exactly how to use the Forum as a tool to sell their dogs which is quite the irony... 

Anyhow, I bought two dogs unseen. Judge was unseen but I knew the parents since I checked them both out before I picked Indra. 

Nala was unseen. Never seen the parents personally. Never seen her littermates. All I had was my parents word and that's enough.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

lhczth said:


> I also have never understood how people can buy puppies from breeders they have never met out of dogs they have never seen in person.


I've never understood how people pay $1500 for a puppy from next day puppies dot com based on one photo and a single-paragraph description. Like they're buying a frakin' kitchen mixer from the Sears catalog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

My point was that most buyers are pet buyers. Pet buyers aren't necessarily lazy. They just want a pet. Maybe because their next door neighbor had a GS when they were a kid.
They are not interested in the history of the breed or genetics and they haven't read "what to look for in a reputable breeder" .

Then we have dogs bred primarily for sport or show. Those people probably know what they are looking for.

The market for pet,sport and show dogs will IMO keep what Cliff is talking about from happening.

How many pet owners know what schutzhund, conformation, or OFA even mean.
A good many don't know anything about hip or elbow problems. What is bloat? and so on.

This board is very limited with regard to the pet GS market and the lack of knowledge in this group. Yet the pet group is the largest market for most breeds.

The GSD and what it could or should be will not be saved or enhanced by the pet market.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

:thumbup: andy


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Andy, your comments are very valid, but I think the major problem is that their are "Pet" breeders, and Pet experts out there advising consumers. (I'm using your definition of "pet" in that it shows a lack of knowledge and use of convience). In other words Breeders, should know better and be held higher than the superficial knowledge and practices used today. Its like the people who thrust titled dogs as a requisite for good breeding,(for the reasons I gave earlier), and they themselves have NEVER titled a dog to even understand what the connection between titling and breeding is. So in essence they are regurgitating something they heard....the problem with that is the person really doesn't understand what they are talking about. This is how misinformation, and wives tales grow and spread. Breeders should be some of the most knowledgable people in the breed about working, history, health, structure, etc. 
Case in point....you hear the psuedo experts always making comments like" without good stucture(they mean conformation structure), the dog can't work......what a crap of shinola!. If they ever went to places that dogs are really worked, they would see GS with all kinds of structures that were doing fantastic jobs. The key to this breed's working excellence comes from between the ears, not the pretty structure. Is this thinking theory or reality??????? Get my drift.....that's why they are psuedo experts, because what they say doesn't marry with what is. But if they are breeders or internet experts many people get roped in to believing this hogwash.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> Its like the people who thrust titled dogs as a requisite for good breeding,(for the reasons I gave earlier), and they themselves have NEVER titled a dog to even understand what the connection between titling and breeding is. .


I think this is the bone of contention. I don't think titled dogs are a requisite for good breeding, but a guideline to help consumers who are new to the breed separate careful breeders from careless breeders. There will be collateral damage on both sides; plenty of careful breeders don't title and plenty of people who title are careless breeders. It's an admittedly flawed guideline to help people who know nothing of German Shepherds, buy a German Shepherd before they get their black belt in German Shepherd.

It's easy to say "go meet dogs and talk to people" but the average person who's never owned a German Shepherd, or even a dog of any kind, don't know how to begin or what questions to ask when evaluating a breeding dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

...sigh... this really is discussed to death. 

Yeah, titles aren't everything when you have not seen the dog. But where do you start? 

You want people to be responsible, you gripe about people not having the knowledge. If you say titles aren't everything and breed untitled dogs because of it, what message does it send to those you want their dogs to title? Why should they? 
What kind of quality control do you implement? 

There has got to be some common ground for everyone. There are certain rules that need to be followed by everyone. Today the titles, what's next you want to get rid off because it's not "necessary"?

We've seen what happens when people don't have to follow any rules or standards. Just look at the American Lines... but wait... with them we gripe that there is a lack of enforcement. 

So maybe we should determine what we want first before we go out and gripe about titles, lack of titles or whatever. Because in all honesty, one moment we say "Titles aren't everything and you don't need titles to breed." and the next one we are bashing American Lines because there is no accountability to what they do, a lack of titles and fading working abilities.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This subject can be debated endlessly. However there are 7 billion people on this planet and the only ones who care enough to learn enough about the GSD breed to do the proper research to make wise breeding decisions are doing so. Most will not.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I just think it's a little hypocritical to bash breeders that don't title their dogs and then do the exact same thing just because "you've got the knowledge". 

If I have the knowledge why not go out and title the dogs and go the proper route? If I have the dogs that have what it takes I can go out and put the time and money into titling them to show that there IS a different and more responsible way. 

Yes, we know, titles aren't everything but they are the ONLY thing we have in terms of Quality Control. 

If we get rid of everything just because it's not "necessary" what message does that send? Because than the knowledge WILL get lost. 

As long as there are people coming together, train together, title together, the dogs are seen on the field you talk to people, you network. 

No titles, no gatherings, no dogs, no legends, no knowledge that can be shared. 

It is expensive but this is the US. If you don't want to title through the German System there are other ways to put titles or certificates on your dog. 

You've got way more possibilities over here than in Germany. USE them. 

There are so many things and ways how you can test a dogs nerves, working abilities. You've got SO MUCH freedom over here and yet you sit here wasting time about griping "Titles aren't everything."

Sorry but testing a dog around the grandkids isn't really the way to go either, especially if I don't know you, there has got to come a bit more than that. 

If I do know you, I trust your word until proven otherwise. 

But sitting here, breeding untitled dogs, putting yourself on a pedestal because you've got so much more knowledge, it's justified and then turning around pointing with a finger at those who breed BYB quality dogs, Showdogs etc... 

If you want a change, it starts with you!


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

Mrs.K said:


> ...sigh... this really is discussed to death.
> 
> Yeah, titles aren't everything when you have not seen the dog. But where do you start?
> 
> ...


I dont think anyone is saying not to title but rather title the dog and use that tool as a deciding factor when considering whether or not to breed. For example, one dog out of a litter is OFA good, titled to schh3, and is KKL1, but two litter mates are mildly dysplasic and only one other has ever been worked to a BH. You can use titles and health screening to understand that while your dog turned out really well, the genetic foundation might be a little weak, so you dont exactly have the green light to go ahead and breed the dog. You could go and advertise the puppies as from OFA good and SCH3 titled parents, and have it seem to unsuspecting buyers that these puppies will be suitable for work and are healthy... But is that the case and are you really doing your job as a breeder? An indepth understanding of the 'big picture' is far more important than titling, which is why some people can get away without titling and still consistently produce good dogs (someone that comes to mind would be Carmen). Doesn't mean titling isnt necessary, but you need to decide for you if they're a helpful tool in your decision making process of whether or not to breed. Same idea with health screening... HOW are you going to use it?

As far as 'these topics are like beating a dead horse', yeah in a lot of ways they are. And yeah, the even if the few hundred people who visit this site are the only ones who care about preservation of this breed, it's gotta start somewhere. As someone who's just getting into this whole thing, without thought provoking questions and concerns such as this, I can assure you that it would _seem_ that the titles and health screening make the decision on whether or not to breed the dog. Without conversations like this, most people might never consider the different perspectives on such an important topic.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

abakerrr said:


> I dont think anyone is saying not to title but rather title the dog and use that tool as a deciding factor when considering whether or not to breed. For example, one dog out of a litter is OFA good, titled to schh3, and is KKL1, but two litter mates are mildly dysplasic and only one other has ever been worked to a BH. You can use titles and health screening to understand that while your dog turned out really well, the genetic foundation might be a little weak, so you dont exactly have the green light to go ahead and breed the dog. You could go and advertise the puppies as from OFA good and SCH3 titled parents, and have it seem to unsuspecting buyers that these puppies will be suitable for work and are healthy... But is that the case and are you really doing your job as a breeder? An indepth understanding of the 'big picture' is far more important than titling, which is why some people can get away without titling and still consistently produce good dogs (someone that comes to mind would be Carmen). Doesn't mean titling isnt necessary, but you need to decide for you if they're a helpful tool in your decision making process of whether or not to breed. Same idea with health screening... HOW are you going to use it?
> 
> As far as 'these topics are like beating a dead horse', yeah in a lot of ways they are. And yeah, the even if the few hundred people who visit this site are the only ones who care about preservation of this breed, it's gotta start somewhere. As someone who's just getting into this whole thing, without thought provoking questions and concerns such as this, I can assure you that it would _seem_ that the titles and health screening make the decision on whether or not to breed the dog. Without conversations like this, most people might never consider the different perspectives on such an important topic.


I know all that and I've been preaching the exact same thing forever and a day and been bashed for it on this very same forum. 

A title and A stamp means nothing without knowing the background of the dog. However there is not a single excuse for not titling and health certifying a dog. ESPECIALLY when you have the knowledge. 

Think of something. What would we know about the legend studs if they hadn't competed? What would we know about any of the dogs if we wouldn't go out to watch them on a trial? What would we know if not a single one of them had titles? 

Oh, he was playing in the backyard, nicely with kids, he loved to protect the house and could run all day long...

What else would we know if all the dogs did were riding in the back of the truck? 

YOU know that it's a good dog but we've NEVER seen the dog in training, we've NEVER seen the dog on the field. You keep the dog a secret and we have to believe you. If we want to see the dog, we have to come to YOUR house and the dog is worked in YOUR backyard. 

But how does the dog in a different place and under stress? Where are all the stories about the dog? 
Nothing? You can't hear, see or find anything about that dog? Great... because he's been locked up on your farm and you don't title NOR health screen your dogs because you've got _"THE KNOWLEDGE" _to be honest. That makes you even worse than a BYB. 

A BYB may not know better. They may think they are acting in the best interest of their dog and just want a puppy. 

YOU on the other hand, KNOW BETTER. (not you you.. general you)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And by the way, no titles, no sport, no networking, no seminars, no ivan balavabanov, no michael ellis, no greg doud, no debbie zappia, no cliffson or carmspack, no wildhaus, wolfstraum, olgameister Kennels... 

All this is connected. If there were no more titling, no sport, we wouldn't have the dogs we have today. There wouldn't be any Koerbelbach, von der boesen Nachbarschaft or Kassler Kreuz. 

There wouldn't be any Seminars, Gatherings, where you can meet and share your knowledge, or stories of the dogs. There wouldn't be an WUSV, USCA or DVG. 

Where would that leave us? 

How would we obtain our knowledge?

The reality is, there is no perfect system and there never will be a perfect system. We have to use what we have and make the best of it. But NOT titling or health screening at all is not an option I agree with. At least health test the dogs! That's the bare minimum.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Again Abakerr.....you understand what I am trying to say, I have never said either or....people that read that having reading comphrehension problems. As you point out I am only saying that these things should be used in proper context, and because they are so fallible the context should be understood. Now how people get from that to no titles, all untitled, or any of that garbage is mystery to me. I very seldom say all or never about anything, because nothing is absolute( except that there is HD in all lines of the breed...lol). 
@ Mrs. K....I don't think that titles are necesaary as I know you understand that also....but I do think that every breeder should work their dog and supplement the titles or lack of titles with experience working the breed. I don't care if its IPO, SCH, SDA, PSA, CDX/UD, Ring,Mondio, etc....anything that tests the innate traits and characteristics the breed is supposed to possess so we don't lose them. I don't even have a problem with small groups of people getting together and doing ob/protection work as it was done back in the day. Leastways people can see the performance of the dog and make more reality based breeding decisions. The hypocrisy is we are no longer breeding DOGS, but rather titles, certs, and training.


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

_We have to use what we have and make the best of it. But NOT titling or health screening at all is not an option I agree with. At least health test the dogs_

I agree with this wholeheartedly. There's really not any good reason to not health screen. Again, that doesnt necessarily mean that if hips, elbows, thyroid, etc come back clear that the dog has the green light for being quality breeding material but it's a nice start.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> However there is not a single excuse for not titling and health certifying a dog. ESPECIALLY when you have the knowledge.


Health certifying... yes. But some dogs going into real-life jobs do not have titles... police dogs, SAR, bomb dogs, guide/service dogs, etc. may not need a UDX or SchHIII to be considered breedworthy, and in fact training in such venues may be counterproductive to their job. 

Dogs that are not working in the real world need to do something to prove their working ability, whether it's AKC obedience, SchH, or whatever, but I have no problem with breeding police, SAR, or guide dogs that are "untitled".


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Health certifying... yes. But some dogs going into real-life jobs do not have titles... police dogs, SAR, bomb dogs, guide/service dogs, etc. may not need a UDX or SchHIII to be considered breedworthy, and in fact training in such venues may be counterproductive to their job.
> 
> Dogs that are not working in the real world need to do something to prove their working ability, whether it's AKC obedience, SchH, or whatever, but I have no problem with breeding police, SAR, or guide dogs that are "untitled".


That's why I said titling and certifying. SAR Dogs Certify. To my knowledge Police Dogs have to certify too. Bomb and Drug Dogs better certify and keep their training logs up, so do Cadaver Dogs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

If I had to make a choice between a breeder with a kennel full of titled dogs or a breeder that understood genetics, pedigrees, and the history and development of the breed.

I would go for the one with the knowledge, not the titles.

Of course that is making the assumption that I know all these things about both breeders.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I go to training w/ different clubs, I hear people talking about dogs, and when they bash someones program or their dogs, I do listen, but also consider the source. There is always someone bad talking, but then there are people talking about the good dogs, too. And many of the good dogs are from kennels that are under the radar to the forum people.

Most of the time they may be right on, but they may be only seeing the dogs in trialing results/ and form that opinion("home field advantage/helper was the club helper yet the dogs still didn't impress")
I like to travel to other clubs to train, but that is limiting due to $$. I've unfortunately club hopped enough that I don't like to do it much.
I _do_ look at training video's(not trialing) and enjoy them, so I hope people keep them coming!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> Health certifying... yes. But some dogs going into real-life jobs do not have titles... police dogs, SAR, bomb dogs, guide/service dogs, etc. may not need a UDX or SchHIII to be considered breedworthy, and in fact training in such venues may be counterproductive to their job.
> 
> Dogs that are not working in the real world need to do something to prove their working ability, whether it's AKC obedience, SchH, or whatever, but I have no problem with breeding police, SAR, or guide dogs that are "untitled".


Good post. 
I'm tired of all the bickering, people say "well, make sure the dogs have titles", then others come on and sneer and say "titles don't make the dog", etc. and almost as if we need to go back to the stone age era and _not_ title it or it's not a _real_ dog. 
WTH. Why can't a kennel do BOTH? Know genetics AND have titles??
Is that like, impossible? 

It is general knowledge that overbreeding and careless has caused every breed to go downhill, that's not earthshattering news, the GSD is no exception, that news is not earthshattering either.

Since we're dealing with a very horrible health situation with our current (rescued) dog at the moment I'd never go to buy a pup from anyone with no testing and no guarantees, and the more titles, the merrier.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> If I had to make a choice between a breeder with a kennel full of titled dogs or a breeder that understood genetics, pedigrees, and the history and development of the breed.
> 
> I would go for the one with the knowledge, not the titles.
> .


You know, Andy, the saddest thing is that we see those as two different things. Shouldn't the same person be able to do both? Isn't that kind of the point?


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Emoore said:


> You know, Andy, the saddest thing is that we see those as two different things. Shouldn't the same person be able to do both? Isn't that kind of the point?


I completely agree with you on this point.

As a pet buyer, and someone who has suffered from the misconceptions behind titled dogs, I also completely get what Cliff is saying. Every dog listed in my pup's pedigree is laden with titles and accomplishments and every dog is listed with good or normal hips. Throwing the crapshoot thing aside, these things led me to believe that I was choosing from a reputable breeder that knew what they were doing because of the dogs they chose to breed and what they had behind their names. When I approached my breeder with his issues, their response was, "These are V and V-1 rated dogs, not some BYB bred mutts!" and I obviously had done something wrong in the 6 weeks I had him that caused his development to go so wrong.

When I had Carmen take a look at the pedigree, she saw the back massing of the same dogs that led to the disfigurement of my pup. So in my personal opinion, I think Cliff is trying to say that too many breeders are simply going off of individual accomplishments of each dog being bred instead of taking in the full picture. I see it all the time with newbies coming into the breed and saying they may want to breed their dogs somewhere down the road, but they are going to make sure they get all health clearances and titles first. But what do they really know about the genetics of the dog, the dogs in its line, the dog they plan on breeding it to, or how well the other litter mates are doing?

I think it takes a long time to develop this kind of knowledge, but since the market is so gung ho on titles and health clearances, other important aspects are being overlooked and the odds in the crapshoot are getting thinner and thinner...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It appears that people don't have the "intelligence" both in terms of baseline ability, and ability to learn the material that they need to know, and may not even know the material that they need to know (as we see when people who are producing puppies do not even understand the genetics of color) to be doing this well. 

Would master classes and certifications in basic genetics, pedigree reading specific to GSDs, understanding and evaluating temperament from trusted GSD breeders, and health information - how to identify health issues for one (if you don't know what something is, your dog can't have it, can they!), GSD specific health issues and modes of inheritance, from health experts...all offered in an online platform, with perhaps a week of intensive training in behavior...stuff like that...that's how I would imagine you could maybe not fix things, but raise the level of what you are seeing. 

Then those people get the cliffson1 certificate, that they can proudly display next to their beet red and black dog (with the neon green grass - oh no, not photoshopped!) on their marketing website! 

I know this can be picked apart - but I am only putting 5 minutes of time into thinking it through, so take it easy on me. 

But seriously...I would imagine that something like that - getting the information to people who want it, marketing it to potential buyers, while it could open a new can of worms, at least those worms would be healthier and with better temperament. 

My concern is that in rescue, we have seen that people do not know true good GSD temperament, which is sad, but also, it is easier for us to help dogs that are of solid temperament, and good health is a bonus (because EPI doesn't bite out of fear). So the more dogs that are in the breeding system who produce dogs that we can help, the better.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I think it takes a long time to develop this kind of knowledge, but since the market is so gung ho on titles and health clearances, other important aspects are being overlooked and the odds in the crapshoot are getting thinner and thinner...


My parents are for over 40 years in the business. Combined they have over 80 years of experience and knowledge. My father started titling dogs as a teenager. They started breeding before I was born. That was in 1979 and they still don't know it all and will tell you that if they don't know it. 

Even with all those years, there are things you learn every day and you never stop learning. If a breeder tells you that he knows it all, he's a liar and not reputable. 

My father lives by a Code. "As a breeder, be always honest and never sell a "faulty" dog. If you do, you take responsibility." 

That is one thing that is missing in most cases. The shady breeders ruin it for the good ones.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One of the challenges I have faced is ensuring a dog suitable for detection work or SAR (valid GSD job) and the titling process is not a guarantee of the requisite hunt drives. So, then I say - well ideally both parents would be workingline schutzhund 3 dogs - BUT- I went with a litter where the dam is a working trailing dog who is owned by a retired police officer now SAR volunteer and LETS evaluator. Dam has TD, GN, BH and working certifications, so not schutzhund titles. BUT I was not looking for a dog to do bitework. I imagine he could and his sire was schutzhund 2 and linebred on cordon an-sat, and both of the dams grandparents are schutzhund 3 but that does not mean he has the requisite fight drives and our certification process will not test that.

*So what the heck is my question?*

The goal of the breeding was solid working search/detection dogs and the focus on bitework was not there as an objective. Is that wrong? Is it wrong to steer towards a speciality within the lines particularly if you feel a desireable attribute of the breed (hunt drive) which is not specifically *tested* for in schutzhund is being perserved. Then how far do you go to make sure things are pulled back into center (versatility)?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hahaha --- one of my most gratifying moments recently was a phone call late at night telling me that my dog had just completed a successful real life 10 km track , that bled over into dark of night , crossing field , brush , standing water and gravelly side of road with moving traffic .
They thanked me for the experience, one which they will never forget .

That is great . But it does not feed my dogs . Because I am very particular and only have a litter once or at most twice a year , that means I have to subsidize my "kennel" activities from other sources of income , savings. My last litter was Nov 2010 . - see comment later in post --

I KNOW that I have been rejected or passed over when I get some sport person contacting me for a prospective candidate because I do not have titles . Even when I have a super - dog , such as Rkiv - RCMP , later Oklahoma max prisons - many newspaper articles while RCMP , many articles as a prisons dogs including 2 awards for service under extreme conditions . That's just one -- there are others who have caught wily prison escapees, guaranteed the safety of Pope Paul , US President , saved lives, even though an arrest was made of the same person, who decided to abandon his vehicle and make a run for it dead of night , blinding snowstorm , dangerously cold . I have certified SAR, avalanche, Guide , narcotics, dual, explosives . That is my "titles" .

At the base is rock solid stability. Most of these dogs do not have immediate generations of sch h or sport titled dogs. That is a whole new , complex discussion . 

I KNOW that I have been rejected many times because the dogs I have are not black and tan , black and red. So be it. Don't care .

--- here is the see later thoughts picked up --Ready to tear hair out - when you are put up to the challenge by those who continue to help back yard breeders thrive . When dogs bred for an alternative income stream with no idea of anything of the breed , history, genetics, anything breed and breed and by volume make profit selling dogs at $400 , who are "great" (I do hope they are for the sake of the dog) --- but they are not held up to any standard or asked to perform or tested against anything.

Even if they are good , guess what !?! -- there are those that are professional procurors posing as that nice couple who want a well bred pet , that is then sold or placed into that breeding mill - whether large scale or kitchen puppy hobby . Needed , one male, one female -- biological units. 
I knew of one investigation that exposed exactly this , and personally knew a person who did this -- for years I was wary of people looking at my pups thinking that they were agents of his . I knew dogs that he had "scooped" .

You have to look at the underbelly .

'Nother bee in the bonnet are the merchandizers with all the bells and whistles dogs and web sites who buy dogs as investment and get returns on breeding them -- pedigrees are good , but are they matched the way the ought to be? maybe, maybe not. More luck than design . I guess as long as all the names align . Problem is the person is incapable of really having a feel , maybe even an interest, in the core-nature of a dog . Can't tell you anything about the potential , other than it is a handsome dog. See this a lot in the DDR sites .

that's a start -- I know what Cliff is getting at and do support him

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Kingsj (Sep 17, 2011)

Although I'd like to think otherwise, I believe I fall into the "pet owner" category. I have not yet titled a dog in any dog sport or discipline. I do not consider myself a typical consumer, but I am a consumer nonetheless. I recently obtained my first purebred GSD and speak from a consumer’s point of view. I write this in hopes others will learn from my experience as an “average” GSD owner.

I have spent years "researching" the GSD breed. I use quotations because although I read everything I could find, including ump-teen board threads and kennel websites, there is a very finite amount of truthful and accurate information available to the general public about specific dogs or bloodlines. This is frustrating and makes it difficult for Joe Public to make a well informed decision. 

When I started looking into getting a GSD it was because I knew a friend that had this incredible GSD mix. Of course, I thought, I want one just like that. So, like many of those that have ended up on this board, I ended up with a GSD mix with significant temperament and health problems. From that time until now, I have educated myself as best I could on the GSD’s history and temperament and decided what I really wanted in my GSD.

I decided I wanted to get a working line dog. And tried to research bloodlines, but even when you start recognizing famous names in pedigrees, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors regarding what "reality" really is in regards to what specific dogs are like or what specific bloodlines bring to a breeding. When is the last time you read a website and saw: 

"So-n-so vom Blankhaus is a wonderful med-size female with only fair nerve but over the top prey drive. She is very independant and does not like to snuggle up, but she hits the sleeve like a train. Her obedience is solid, but she does not really enjoy it and only works for a ball reward or if she is forced. She does love tracking and excels in this area." ???

These types of pros and cons are just not available to the consumers. Now, it is true the vast majority of consumers do not look for information that detailed, but I did. And for people like me, with very little experience with real working dogs, even attending events is not enough to make this type of evaluation. ****, it took me a long time to even figure out exactly what I wanted and even that was dynamic until the day I picked up the pup!

I stalked this board (and others) long before I joined it, and it allowed me to read up on many of the breeders here, contact owners of pups produced, read brags and stories of pups produced, learn how to pick a breeder, etc... This was probably one of the best resources available, yet when I speak to others I epitomize Cliff's comments about just regurgitating what I've read. I have nothing else to go on. I should clarify, I stopped blindly believing all posts a long time ago. With time, and a lot of effort, you start to pick out who seems to understand the complicated nature of GSD's and who wants to get another thousand posts.

It seems to me the only real source of true, detailed information is shared among tight circles of people who have similar goals that trust one another. I would LOVE to see Cliff put out a book detailing the traits specific bloodlines offer (you can PM it to me!!  ), but I seriously doubt many of the cons described would be easy for people to swallow. And although I would love it, I'm more grateful he is willing to share this information with people in a position to use the info to breed better dogs (not me).

I believe the problem of losing sight of what is real lies somewhere between lazy consumers and greedy/kennel blind/uncaring breeders. The lazy consumer googles GSD and believes everything they read on a business website or just buys the cheapest GSD in the classified section. These consumers fuel the fire for greedy/deceitful breeders, which, as a result, continue to produce subpar animals and justify this by saying, “their only pet dogs” or they may really believe they are doing the right thing b/c they like the over-sized/weak-nerved/poor temperamented dogs they are producing. It just disgusts me to think about this. 

I refuse to participate in this system, and have (gladly) proven it with my actions and my wallet. I cannot be as involved in dogsport or regularly travel to events, as many do, but I will try to stay as based in reality as I can. For me that means to identify those who know what they are talking about, and recognize them as an authority. Regarding that, titles are evidence, not everything.

So, to Cliff - I am deeply grateful to you for the time and efforts you have given to learning the bloodlines and sharing your experience and expertise with others here who benefit. I am personally grateful for your influence on the breed. Thank you for keeping it real!

To many other breeders here I have read – I did not contact many of you, but I have a great deal of respect for the sacrifice and efforts you make to maintain integrity in the GSD breed. I am currently benefitting a great deal from the WH breeding program, which combines titles and knowledge (IMO), and I am humbled by the efforts that went into producing my pup. Thank you!!!

Kingsley


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Starting with Lakl, the last group of posts are really great IMO.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Kingsj said:


> Although I'd like to think otherwise, I believe I fall into the "pet owner" category. I have not yet titled a dog in any dog sport or discipline. I do not consider myself a typical consumer, but I am a consumer nonetheless. I recently obtained my first purebred GSD and speak from a consumer’s point of view. I write this in hopes others will learn from my experience as an “average” GSD owner.
> 
> I have spent years "researching" the GSD breed. I use quotations because although I read everything I could find, including ump-teen board threads and kennel websites, there is a very finite amount of truthful and accurate information available to the general public about specific dogs or bloodlines. This is frustrating and makes it difficult for Joe Public to make a well informed decision.
> 
> ...


Lol, if this was "average" we wouldn't be having this discussion. You sir have done more research about the GSD than the all the "average" owners combined.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> One of the challenges I have faced is ensuring a dog suitable for detection work or SAR (valid GSD job) and the titling process is not a guarantee of the requisite hunt drives. So, then I say - well ideally both parents would be workingline schutzhund 3 dogs - BUT- I went with a litter where the dam is a working trailing dog who is owned by a retired police officer now SAR volunteer and LETS evaluator. Dam has TD, GN, BH and working certifications, so not schutzhund titles. BUT I was not looking for a dog to do bitework. I imagine he could and his sire was schutzhund 2 and linebred on cordon an-sat, and both of the dams grandparents are schutzhund 3 but that does not mean he has the requisite fight drives and our certification process will not test that.
> 
> *So what the heck is my question?*
> 
> The goal of the breeding was solid working search/detection dogs and the focus on bitework was not there as an objective. Is that wrong? Is it wrong to steer towards a speciality within the lines particularly if you feel a desireable attribute of the breed (hunt drive) which is not specifically *tested* for in schutzhund is being perserved. Then how far do you go to make sure things are pulled back into center (versatility)?


One thing I noticed in Germany is when somebody washes a dog from Schutzhund for whatever reason, they say "Eh, they can still do SAR." 

NO THEY CAN'T! If the dog is not suitable for Schutzhund because of a nerve issue or lack of drive, what makes you think he's good enough for SAR? (you in general you)

I hate when people think of SAR Dogs as substandard and that they are not good enough for Schutzhund. 

When I want a dog I want the full package and especially when it is about human life I'd like to think that people take it a little more serious than a sport. But for some reason, quite a few Schutzhund people do not take SAR as serious as it is taken in the US. Maybe because every darn village has like 10-20 people that do SAR and maybe because it's a huge sport as well... I don't know why... or maybe I've just come across the wrong people. 

I guess my point is that a well bred Shepherd is the whole package and not just prey or not just fight, not just food.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have actually seen some very nice working police dogs (GSDs) in recent years and wish there was a better system for incorporating the certifications of a working dog in lieu of some of the titles or in having an abbreviated temperament assessment.

I don't think many folks with actual working dogs have the time to put them through a showing and titling system, yet they may have very breedworthy dogs. Thinking of solid dual purpose dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I have actually seen some very nice working police dogs (GSDs) in recent years and wish there was a better system for incorporating the certifications of a working dog in lieu of some of the titles or in having an abbreviated temperament assessment.
> 
> I don't think many folks with actual working dogs have the time to put them through a showing and titling system, yet they may have very breedworthy dogs. Thinking of solid dual purpose dogs.


Absolutely. I agree. With the SAR Training I simply don't have the time and money for Schutzhund on top of it. As much as I want it. The training overlaps all the time. 

If you breed within the AKC working certifications is just as good or even better than a title. If you breed within the WUSV you have to accept the rules or you won't get the papers. 

I doubt there'll be a change anytime soon, within the SV.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I have actually seen some very nice working police dogs (GSDs) in recent years and wish there was a better system for incorporating the certifications of a working dog in lieu of some of the titles or in having an abbreviated temperament assessment.
> 
> I don't think many folks with actual working dogs have the time to put them through a showing and titling system, yet they may have very breedworthy dogs. Thinking of solid dual purpose dogs.


Probably never happen Nancy because it make sense.

It's like what Carmen does with her dogs. In a case like Carmen who cares about titles. She has GSDs doing what they were made for with or without titles.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> Absolutely. I agree. With the SAR Training I simply don't have the time and money for Schutzhund on top of it. As much as I want it. The training overlaps all the time.
> 
> If you breed within the AKC working certifications is just as good or even better than a title. If you breed within the WUSV you have to accept the rules or you won't get the papers.
> 
> I doubt there'll be a change anytime soon, within the SV.


 
True but I would want, say, for a working search dog to have a good objective third party way of evaluating fight drive and conformation which you are not going to get in that venue.........and it seems to me that the well rounded balance is important. 

Same thing for a police dog. I have seen some very nice ones but some nasty ones who must also have faulty temperament. And no objective evaluation of structure. That would be nice to have.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes Mrs K --- . Now to hips . When I have a dog that is really showing me that he has the goods, and once he has been evaluated by multiple or group of professional trainers , in my case any one of the departments - trainers for PD certification , and is approved , then hips will be done -- they have to be good or better , then I will use that young male once prior to giving him to service . In Canada a PD may not be bred unless before certification when he is official , or after he is retired from service . That is the way it is . So I would technically be breeding to a dog that in the eyes of many has no titles and has no recorded hip status . That same dog works to 10 years , rugged physical use daily -- retiring still with no hip problems. 

You can't expect other training or show titles on dogs going in for service or serious work such as SAR . You can't wait -- there are deadlines on age -- they want the dog as close to the 18 month range ready for the certification course.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Today I took a hour or two out for myself , for a change of venue. I met up with a woman that I know through training . She has a dobermann . An import from Sweden , natural ears , long undocked tail . Totally different head conformation - broader between eyes . This dog was built ! impressively built , naturally hard and lean muscle , well muscled at that . NO issues , not a one - and dobermann are known for many physical problems. I have known this dobermann from the day he arrived in Canada and have been following his training , just our paths have not crossed for the last year.
This dog is sound , stable , trustworthy , stable , healthy , masculine , calm and quiet , super dynamic and powerful in his desire to work , clear in the head , can come straight off bitework , where he is intense , and lean against you for a scrub .
I was told that there is a female pup being picked up later this month when she goes to Sweden --dying to see this one to.

So I asked , what does the dobermann fancy think of the dog --- too foreign , too different , one person did not want the risk of introducing long tails -- duhh -- they are all born with natural long tails which are docked -- .
So here we have a great dog with lots and lots to offer the breed, fresh genetics, character, health , lots !! and no one is interested in using him . 
I guess sometimes people feel security in staying with the in crowd -- maybe they were feeling that they would not be able to sell his pups (once you show his picture) .

Probably have the same dynamics in GSD . You can have a dog that has lots to offer go unused because he is not mainstream in his titles -- even though each and every generation and immediate littermates, sire , dam , are or have produced, proven themselves thoroughly in being and producing high quality , long lived, healthy, naturally rugged and robust dogs with the desire and ability to work.

The other thing that all of these titles do not even attempt to address is complex thinking , problem solving, initiative . Instead a command repsonse dog is rewarded .
To keep finer things alive within a breed , such as genetic obedience and hunt search , then you have to have a feel for and understanding of dogs in work .

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Yes Mrs K --- . Now to hips . When I have a dog that is really showing me that he has the goods, and once he has been evaluated by multiple or group of professional trainers , in my case any one of the departments - trainers for PD certification , and is approved , then hips will be done -- they have to be good or better , then I will use that young male once prior to giving him to service . In Canada a PD may not be bred unless before certification when he is official , or after he is retired from service . That is the way it is . So I would technically be breeding to a dog that in the eyes of many has no titles and has no recorded hip status . That same dog works to 10 years , rugged physical use daily -- retiring still with no hip problems.
> 
> You can't expect other training or show titles on dogs going in for service or serious work such as SAR . You can't wait -- there are deadlines on age -- they want the dog as close to the 18 month range ready for the certification course.


Yeah, I'm not sure if I'll ever have a litter. Nala is definitely tempting. But first I want her to be certified. That's why I wanted two Dogs in the first place. I didn't necessarily want another female but Nala is absolutely tempting. It would be a shame not to breed her because she's got it all and the genetics. Her breeder would love to have her for a litter, only problem... I doubt I'll get her through the Koerung. I'd have to quit SAR and I've come too far to quit now. It'd be just another thing I started and never finished. I thought about sending her back to Germany and have somebody else do it BUT than I'd lose a lot of time for SAR. Titling, Koerung, Litter... that's time that'll be lost. 

If I'll have a litter, it'll be probably after she certified. When she's around 3-5 years old. And that's it. I won't wait until she's 8 or 9, than it's too late.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Lol, if this was "average" we wouldn't be having this discussion. You sir have done more research about the GSD than the all the "average" owners combined.


This quote is in reference to Kingsj's great post and I agree...If only others were as diligent and thorough in choosing!! 
Kingsj share that great spreadsheet


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to all I said in the above two posts, that is the reality -- the dogs have "IT" just can not do more to prove the point , yet people select those who in "theory" should or might ---


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Carmspack -- it's sport people. They have to play by the rules, otherwise the dog won't be worth a dime without the right paperwork. The papers and the titles determine the worth of the dog. That's just the way it is. 

In the real world papers don't matter, titles don't matter. Heck, it could be a mutt and if that mutt has what it takes I'd keep and work it, which is why I was considering keeping one of the foster only that it turned out that he's had no hunt-drive whatsoever. 

Sport is Sport...and there is a heck of a lot of money in that sport.


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