# dumb question



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are doing bitework with a dog, then the dog should already have rock solid nerve and be under good control before you make the decision to do bitework with the dog. Is this the general idea?

How come is that people doing bitework with dogs still need to use correction collars, prongs or e-collars on them? Should those just be a temporary training tool until the dog gets it that they are not supposed to drag you down the street? 

Do people who cannot control their dogs without a prong collar, train them in bitework?

Or is it more that people are more interested in the protection stuff that they do not care if the dog drags them down the street without wearing a prong collar?

Does anyone else worry about what happens if the prong comes undone, as they have been known to do?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree the dog should be of good nerve for training in bitework. "Under control" comes with training and maturing. Bitework in SchH is more about the helper/sleeve than the dog going willy-nilly around biting people. It is situational.

I didn't put a prong on my dog until he was 18 months old, he wore a harness, a flat collar, a fursaver, and an agitation collar before he was introduced to a prong. Had nothing to do with control or lack of. I still switch his gear according to what we are working on during a particular session.
Obedience training goes evenly with the protection work in SchH training. You train both at the same time but the dog views the sleeve as a target to bite, otherwise is neutral to most every situation. When you trial you can only use a fursaver, so if you are training with tools you need to fade them or proof the dog before a trial or you won't show well.
As the dog matures, the obedience comes along and proofed then you add in pressure and agitation, so the dog will fight defensively. It is still situational. We run two lines on two collars(fursaver/prong) during training routinely. So if a prong comes apart you have the back up and if it does come apart the helper should be prepared to catch the dog(dog bites sleeve) and slip it once the handler has gained control of the dog. 
Prongs can ramp up a dog, and some use that as a teaching tool to build drive. E-collars are a great tool when used correctly
You should go observe some training, and you'll see it isn't out of control dogs at all. 
They are very obedient and it is usually trained positively...though there are many that use compulsion unfairly. Compulsion has its place but it should be balanced.

If you are writing of personal protection training, I'll let someone else answer to that.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

selzer,

Did you put the SchH1 on Odessa?

Wayne


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No. I got her in the end of December, very pregnant and already titled. 

I do not do schutzhund. One of the puppies I sold is. I prefer obedience, rally, agility, herding, etc, not interested in amping up dogs so they chew on helpers. 

I am glad to hear that trialing has to be done without the extra training tools though.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Selzer, if you don't participate in the sport, then what is the point of your thread? To bash prong collars? How was Odessa trained, with compulsion so she could obtain a title quickly? Or was there slow foundation started with her so she could fall back on that when pressure/stress placed on her....
Have you ever witnessed SchH training at all? If not, then I suggest you do so you can understand it better.
Odessa's titles mean something don't they? I'm surprised you put them behind her name if you are so anti bitework.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The point is that people seem to be doing bitework with dogs that are not sound, who have poor temperaments, never get past the prong collars, and I think that is an accident waiting to happen. 

You seem to have a different use for the prong collar in training, and that is fine. Whatever. But there are others who just use it as their collar of choice. Like the bitework is what it is all about and the rest is not even important.

I do not know if they used a prong on Odessa, but I have not needed to. I put the title there because she has the title. I am not anti-bitework, but I always thought the first thing you need is a dog with a good temperament. Instead there are dogs with extreme temperements being trained in this and people being encouraged to train protection dogs so that they will bite without much of an emphasis on ensuring that the dog has the proper temperament first.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

As someone quite experienced in PPD training, I know exactly what you're talking about. These days, not just PPDS are irresponsibly trained; sadly, even police K9 training is slipping in some areas. I posted awhile back about a K9 in Alameda, CA having to be shot at point blank range 3 times because it wouldn't let go of a bite on the WRONG person in a real-world encounter. This was about 6 months ago, and fortunately, right after the incident the police chief pulled all the K9s in service, presumably to re-evaluate their training program.

I also witnessed a different department's K9 demo last summer, and both dogs had a hard time being called off after the bite. Think about this. When you do a demo, you obviously bring your best dogs. If these are the best dogs, I hate to think of what the average dog is like!

In both these situations, it is obvious that something is amiss with these departments' trainers.

In the private sector, any ethical trainer (one who's not in it only for the money) should be upfront with prospects, should they encounter someone with a dog that doesn't have the proper temperament, as well as should never progress to bitework unless a dog demonstrates solid obedience.

With that said, I use a prong, e-collar, agitation collar, tie-outs and NO collar during my bitework training with my own dog. I only do this because I want her comfortable with all collars, and in all situations. She is solid off-leash. I don't even need a collar on her at all, and definitely don't need a leash. In fact, most of the time, when out and about my dog wears a Ruffwear two ft. Quickdraw leash (seen here: http://www.ruffwear.com/Quick-Draw-Leash_2) that's wrapped around her neck, and I rarely ever use it. She is so good that people often don't even realize she is off-leash. Cats, dogs, deer, squirrels, whatever, can all run right by her shen she's under command, and she will not bolt. I feel completely safe even when near traffic. In my opinion, all PPD prospects should be that good.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I have a slightly different reason for starting SchH and a slightly different type of dog than your "rock solid nerve" dogs that you are referring to. I just wanted to offer a different viewpoint...

I joined a SchH club and started training in the sport to teach Madix better control of himself and to strengthen his nerve. As a Dutch Shepherd he is rather nervy to begin with. Both my agility instructor and my behaviorist were behind my decision, my behaviorist actually suggested it. The incidences of his being nippy and/or growling at people have decreased drastically since I started training. His confidence in himself, in me and in us as a team has increased exponentially. When I got him I asked specifically for a dog that would not be able to do bitework - because I didn't know any better. Now, I can't imagine a better sport to be involved in with Madix. 

I can control Madix with voice alone - no leash, no collar. In bitework and obedience (our tracking is very, very new and leaves a lot to be desired right now lol). Now, it might not be the most beautiful work you've ever seen (as we've barely started and I use the leash/collar as tools to show him where he's supposed to be) however, he is under my complete control the entire time. Just wanted to throw that out there. Lack of solid, stable temperament dog but under complete control is also doing quite well in training and my extremely well-loved house pet...who shares my bed on a daily basis.

ETA: Madix has trained on a flat collar, a harness, a pinch, a fursaver - I like him to be able to perform wherever we are no matter what "equipment" I have available...


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Actually, that's a valid reason for getting into the SCH sport. I've worked some private patrol dogs that were always quick to bite, even when they were not supposed to, and before they were even taught to protect. By teaching them to protect, we were then able to teach them WHEN they were supposed to and when not to bite. Like you, we saw great improvements in them.

With that said, I think Selzer is pointing out that if the dog is not stable and is trained in protection, it could be dangerous, because often such a dog is still unpredicatble.

But, if you get involved with a SPORT, that's a different story, because you don't always appeal to the same things as you would in personal protection, does that make sense? And, I can see how that might have helped with Madix's confidence. ;-)


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

MrLeadFoot said:


> Actually, that's a valid reason for getting into the SCH sport. I've worked some private patrol dogs that were always quick to bite, even when they were not supposed to, and before they were even taught to protect. *By teaching them to protect, we were then able to teach them WHEN they were supposed to and when not to bite.* Like you, we saw great improvements in them.
> 
> With that said, I think Selzer is pointing out that if the dog is not stable and is trained in protection, it could be dangerous, because often such a dog is still unpredicatble.
> 
> But, if you get involved with a SPORT, that's a different story, because you don't always appeal to the same things as you would in personal protection, does that make sense? And, I can see how that might have helped with Madix's confidence. ;-)


Precisely and yes, that makes perfect sense. 

I would say he is not the most stable of dogs (compared to many of the GSDs in my club), because of his nerves and he is being trained in bitework _and _can be controlled. Sport of course only, not PP. It was just another bit of information to add for Selzer because I feel we are in a different "type" than most of the dogs that are doing protection on this forum.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't understand how using a prong collar translate to having an unstable dog? 

And how is the pup you sold for Schutzhund doing, Selzer? I remember some posts of yours from the past where you where adamant that no pup of yours would ever go into a Schtuzhund home, so it was nice to see that you were opening up to the idea.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Castlemaid said:


> I don't understand how using a prong collar translate to having an unstable dog?


I don't understand this either


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I think selzer is butthurt one of her dogs got into a schutzhund home and is now trying to complain about it by talking about people and they're ill tempered 'attack dogs'.
Do you not stand behind your own dogs? This post only tells me that you do not think your dogs have what it takes to compete in this sport. You are coming off as VERY ignorant. Do some reading, go watch a trial. Whatever. 

The point of schutzhund is a GAME. say it with me now...a GAME. A sport is nothing more than a game. And if you get right down to it, schutzhund does not allow prong collars or ecollars. I bet you didnt even know a dog cannot trial with a prong collar or ecollar. There is a lot of training that goes into these well behaved dogs and you should not have brought a sch.1 dog into your home if you did not agree with the sport. Of COARSE one of your puppy buyers was going to look into what it meant and take up the sport. I can't believe a breeder is angry one of her GERMAN SHEPHERD puppies is participating in further training! Better than the dog be left in the backyard 24/7 because the owner can't control him/her??!!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Selzer, I enjoy and respect your posts, but it's long been clear that you consider a prong collar a crutch and not what it is - a training aid. I consider a prong much like power steering. You can steer the car without it, but why would you wnt to? Just to be able to say you're strong enough to? You've stated in the past that if you had a dog you couldn't walk on a flat collar and had to use a prong, you'd put the dog down. 

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rerun, I wish you would find that post. I would not own a dog I could not control without a prong collar, no way. Because prong collars have been known to open up, and then what do you have? Major liability. But I do not NEED the crutch or the training tool or the power steering. It is simply not necessary. It should not be necessary. A dog should not NEED a prong collar. But people use them differently, and using them as a training tool is fine for those who must. I do not see the need. 

Actually, when I sold the pup to the trainer I sold him to, this was a 3-4 puppy who was VERY gentle, and the first pup to go up to my nieces. 3-4 generally translates to a dog that is not as confident, but very gentle. And that seemed to be the case with him. I KNEW when I sold him him that his owners were into schutzhund and have no problem with them doing it with him. I told them he might not be a good candidate for it. But I had talked to them since and he was doing fine in it. His owner is a dog trainer and he told me that the first thing you need is a good solid temperament. 

My problem is with people who are looking for such high energy, high drive, that it is over the top -- will break their teeth to get to it. That is nuts, sorry, but I am entitled to my opinion. And also people who have said they have not the time to do schutzhund, so protection train the dog? Are you mad? People out there every weekend training and trialing, are putting in time on their dogs, are bonding with their dogs, have put in enough training to know whether their dog is suitable. People who do not have the time to do that, should not be protection training dogs. They will end up with a dog trained just enough to be seriously dangerous. And it is irresponsible of us to encourage that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> If you are doing bitework with a dog, then the dog should already have rock solid nerve and be under good control before you make the decision to do bitework with the dog. Is this the general idea?
> 
> How come is that people doing bitework with dogs still need to use correction collars, prongs or e-collars on them? Should those just be a temporary training tool until the dog gets it that they are not supposed to drag you down the street?
> 
> ...


 
Very good thoughts about control before bitework!

However, I can answer your concern about a prong coming undone - any reputable trainer will tell you to have a flat collar on the dog also and then put a safty link between the prong and the flat collar. If the prong does come undone (and I have had it happen 3 times in almost three years); you still have control.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I recently had a client call because they knew I know GSDs very well. They have a 13 mos. male who "pulls us all over the place on walks." To their credit they had taken a Petsmart class, at which they were told to use a harness to control the dog.

The one thing they desired most was "to be able to take the dog for a walk". I assumed they meant being able to take a nice walk. Imagine my surprise when I got there, and they told me they don't take the dog for walks anymore! I thought they were exaggerating, and after spending some time with them and their sweetheart of a dog, I suggested we go for a walk, so I could see what was happening. The husband and wife looked at me like I was nuts. I asked what was wrong, and they said, "Do you mean a real walk, like out the front door and down the street?" I was really shocked hear that question, but they explained that they REALLY didn't walk him anymore because he was too much to handle. I'd heard that before, so again I figured they were exaggerating.

Nevertheless, they harnessed the dog, and they had him sit when they opened the door. The dog behaved perfectly. Once they let him out, he absolutely, without a doubt, lost his mind completely. He was literally tugging the husband so hard the husband was bent over bracing himself as he was literally being whipped around! The dog did not only tug forward, he ran in circles and the guy was being thrown about. I seriously thought the guy was going to tear a rotator cuff. This dog pulled harder than ANY DOG I HAVE EVER SEEN...EVER! Picture the fastest, strongest Iditarod lead dog, and then give him steriods and make him mad! I would never have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

Now, we all know harnesses encourage dogs to pull, so I suggested we stop using the harness and use only his flat collar. The husband and wife looked at me like I was nuts. They said they wouldn't think of trying to have him only on a collar. Well, they weren't kidding. When the dog was put on the collar only, which was a very high-quality nylon collar with a steel buckle, he pulled so hard the steel D-ring literally snapped, like it was thread. In over 25 years of training, I have never seen a dog do that! After getting the dog back, I examined the D-ring. It didn't just come apart, it was snapped.

I asked the couple if they wanted their dog to Heel and they laughed like I was kidding. But, as expected, they said that would be a dream come true. So, I took out a prong collar, and showed it to them. I explained that it appeals to a dog's instincts, detailed how I would use it, and asked them to trust me, which they did.

I put the prong on the dog (with my technique, I do not need a secondary collar), kept the leash at a short 3 feet so he couldn't get momentum. and let the dog go to the end. Like all dogs do, he stopped at the end of the leash. He turned and looked at me, and I gave him a treat and praised him. He sure liked that.  I then turned in the opposite direction and started walking. He quickly caught up to me, then went past me, at which point I stopped again. I let him have an additional foot of the leash length, and when he reached the end of four feet, he stopped again and looked at me. Another treat and more praise. Hey, this game is fun.  I repeated this exercise twice more until all 6 feet of leash was out. Then I worked on teaching him to Heel. In less than five minutes, just like every other dog I've trained, even this dog was Heeling perfectly, knew the Heel word, and had no tension in the leash, even on 180 degree turns. Not once during these 5 minutes did the dog get yanked around, like so many people do with prongs.

What really saddens me is people who use only flat collars to train dogs. By virtue of their design, there's simply no way to get an effective correction, or even a dog's attention when it's tugging on a flat collar; you only end up tugging back because we all know that dogs will keep tugging on flat collars because they feel nothing but resistance, and this ends up being hard on their tracheas, as well as their joints if they lunge at the end of a leash.

And, no one can deny that when initially training a dog, esepcially around distractions that it's never going to tug and lunge; we all know they do, and they do it repeatedly. And, every time they do it, more trauma to their tracheas, not to mention the cutting off of blood to their brains. Ever look at the whites of a dog's eyes that is constantly pulling on a flat collar, even for only a short time? They're bloodshot!

But, on a prong collar, as soon as they feel tension, they almost always self-correct. When they feel "mommy's teeth" starting to grip, they stop pulling, by instinct. They know by instinct if they keep pulling it will become unpleasant, so they stop pulling BEFORE that happens!

Dogs are smarter than people give them credit for; they're not stupid, like humans often are.  Think about it, we're always testing boundaries, even when we know an inevitable outcome will be unpleasant. For example, how many times in a lifetime does a human get burned by touching something hot? I bet you've been burned more times than your dog, and sometimes you even knew an object was hot when you touched it, yet you risked it and burned yourself AGAIN for the umpteenth time.  But, a dog typically touches something hot only once, because once he knows something's hot he won't touch it again. 

I'll admit that way, way back I initially thought prongs were cruel. But, I kept an open mind and set about to learn how they work. Imagine my surprise when I found out I was wrong. Today, I'm glad I was initially wrong. I've helped a whole lot of dogs stop getting bruised tracheas, not to mention considerably reduced their scoldings, never mind other repercussions, simply because I've mastered the prong collar.

But, I'm the kind of person who likes to learn about all kinds of tools and equipment, and I don't cast judgment about things with which I am not suitably knowledgable. If I did, I would never improve myself, or become more efficient at what I do.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

selzer said:


> ...people who have said they have not the time to do schutzhund, so protection train the dog? Are you mad? People out there every weekend training and trialing, are putting in time on their dogs, are bonding with their dogs, have put in enough training to know whether their dog is suitable. People who do not have the time to do that, should not be protection training dogs. They will end up with a dog trained just enough to be seriously dangerous. And it is irresponsible of us to encourage that.


Now THAT is a valid concern. Hear, hear!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> *But, I'm the kind of person who likes to learn about all kinds of tools and equipment,* *and I don't cast judgment about things with which I am not suitably knowledgeable.* *If I did, I would never improve myself, or become more efficient at what I do.*


So true! 

I guess that's what separates the boys from the men..


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Well, for starters, if the dog "can't get past the prong collar" as you suggest, than it will never be able to trial where the only allowed collar is a fursaver and there is no leash even attached. I'm sorry, but the constant assumptions and veiled bashing about protection work and prong collar use gets old, particularly from people with absolutely NO knowledge or experience with this training.

Why is it used? Several reasons.

Often small, nagging corrections are utilized to build frustration and aggression in the dog to bring out stronger barking. The stress they induce is directed at the helper. In that case, they are not correcting but rather drive building.

And yes, they are used for corrections. Most dogs doing this work are harder in temperament then those I suspect you are used to, and also the higher the dog is in drive the "harder" the dog becomes and the more is required to even be noticed.  This type of training cannot be done in an all sunshine and rainbows, here Fluffy if you're a good girl you get your hotdog manner due to the drives being utilized, the self reinforcement that the work provides. A dog who may respond to a simple pop on a flat collar in everyday life may well not even notice anything but a prong collar correction when in that state of drive. And if the dog doesn't even notice it, it certainly is pointless. Picking the right tool for the dog and the job is far more important, and better training, than letting personal preference or aversion make that call, and much more fair to the dog.

And one of the wonders of the prong, and even ecollar, is that they can provide a huge range of correction from a very light reminder up to a very meaningful correction. Thus it is a tool that when used properly can be used on any dog, soft to hard, and allows the handler to modulate the amount used to each individual situation. And allows the handler to do all of that with very little physical movement or force, which can disturb the dog and mess up the training session. A flick of the wrist to pop the collar is quick and effective, getting the message across without telegraphing the correction or upsetting the dog with a lot of arm waving and jerking to provide enough force as might happen with a less severe collar. 

As for controlling the dog by voice, well again obviously that happens or again, none of these dogs who supposedly can only be controlled with electricity or prong would never earn any titles. But even more than that, the temperament of many dogs is such that they are much softer to the handler than they are to the collar. My Raven with more letters after her name than in it, so clearly one who can work fine off lead, can take a whopper of a pinch collar correction and work through it without loss of attitude or any sort of conflict. But if I give her a stern verbal "NO!" she is much more bothered and disturbed by that. The collar also allows for isolation of specific small components of the behavior. When I correct my dog I want to communicate not to do something, I don't want to upset the dog or create conflict in our training. If she bumps the helper when I approach during a guard and I pop her on the pinch, she understands I don't want her to bump. If I were to yell "No" instead, she would not only be much more upset about that, she might think my approach is a bad thing because for some reason I yell at her when I do and start to get worried about me approaching, which doesn't happen with a collar correction, or she might associate that verbal correction with any number of things I don't want her to associate it with rather than understanding it was for the bump, partly because when a dog is disturbed by the handler like that they don't think as clearly, and partly because with the collar I can give a better timed and more directional correction than I can with my voice. Or she might think I don't want her to guard at all. With the collar, I can correct for the bump while using my voice and other things to tell her to keep guarding, just don't do that one little thing. If I just say "no" the dog is likely to associate that with the behavior as whole, and may well take it to mean I don't want her to guard at all, which can cause a huge problem in training by confusing her over what I want. I want her to guard, just not bump. So why not use the tool that allows me to communicate that clearly, isolating that little thing I don't want, the bump, while making it clear I want her to keep guarding, rather than use my voice and possibly confuse her? So of course I use the collar. Better correction that is better understood by the dog, provides for much clearer communication and timing, all without any associated emotional baggage, worry or conflict caused by the handler upsetting the dog rather than just communicating.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as collars coming undone, I've had it happen on rare occasion. In which case I just called my "out of control" dog back over to me, or told the dog to sit or down, reattached the collar and went back to training. No big deal. The collar isn't there because my dog will run off eating babies if it isn't, it's there because it is a great tool for communicating to my dog, which is what training is all about.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I won't even address the questions because they are overloaded with presumption and bias.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

selzer said:


> Rerun, I wish you would find that post.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/1965522-post14.html


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

opcorn:


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Well, for starters...[trimmed to take up less space]...the dog rather than just communicating.


Chris, as always, so nicely worded!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rerun said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/1965522-post14.html



If I had a dog I could not manage without a prong collar -- this was a post saying that a 115 pound woman could not manage a 90 pound dog without the prong collar -- I would rehome or euthanize the dog. I am pretty sure in the course of that thread I discussed my disability with my hands, and dropping things, like leashes. If I had a dog I could not manage, without a prong collar, than someone would be seriously injured and it would be too much of a liability to keep such a dog, sorry. I cannot afford to have a dog that cannot be controlled by voice alone, because it is not a question of _if _but _when. 

_
My meaning when I say "manage a dog", is keeping that dog safe and keeping everyone else safe from the dog. If the dog is just a puller, no, I would not euthanize the dog. But if I could not manage the dog without a prong collar, meaning that if I lose control over the leash/collar, that dog is going to be out of control, and may bite someone or kill their dog -- I could not in good conscience keep the dog, and I could only rehome such a dog with full disclosure, so the chances are that the dog would be very hard to place. 

I guess this really goes under, would you keep a seriously aggressive, people aggressive dog? I hope I do not have to make that decision. 

I have never had a dog I could not manage without a prong collar. 

I believe that people who cannot manage dogs because of their size and power, without helps, need to seriously consider what they are doing. It does the breed no good to let out of control dogs chew on people or their dogs. My biggest beef with the prong collar is that people put it on the pulling dog and do not train like MrLeadFoot, but rather, wow, a miracle has happened. And they never graduate from needing the collar, and never bother to move forward in training. All they want to be able to do is walk the dog, now they can walk the dog, yippee. 

Our dogs are not stupid. They _know_ when they have even a shark line attached to them. They _know_ when they are totally off-lead. They definitely _know _which collar is attached to them. If people are relying on a collar to control a dog, there is a problem. If on the other hand, they use the collar to train the dog, so that the dog understands the command and the position and not just the avoidance of the pinch. That's ok. I do not use them because I cannot use them in the ring, and why would I want to introduce training wheels, when it is just as easy, if not easier to skip that step?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you ever had a dog with fear aggression, or other behavioral issues? Not saying a prong is a cure-all for this type(usually it isn't) but a dog that is reactive needs more than a happy voice or whatever to bring them under control. I would never re-home such a dog and not think of euth'ing either unless the dog was such a basket case that it would be better off dead.
I can't imagine the collar of choice would make or break living with a unstable temperamented dog. I guess if that was my case, Onyx wouldn't have lived to see 3 years old....and at 3 she finally figured out how to manage day to day because she matured mentally. For the record, she never was a candidate for Schh.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Selzer - come down to the AWDF in Bowling Green, KY. Have a friend drive. Watch dogs compete that are trained - dogs at all levels of drive.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> If I had a dog I could not manage without a prong collar -- this was a post saying that a 115 pound woman could not manage a 90 pound dog without the prong collar -- I would rehome or euthanize the dog. I am pretty sure in the course of that thread I discussed my disability with my hands, and dropping things, like leashes. If I had a dog I could not manage, without a prong collar, than someone would be seriously injured and it would be too much of a liability to keep such a dog, sorry. I cannot afford to have a dog that cannot be controlled by voice alone, because it is not a question of _if _but _when. _
> 
> 
> My meaning when I say "manage a dog", is keeping that dog safe and keeping everyone else safe from the dog. If the dog is just a puller, no, I would not euthanize the dog. But if I could not manage the dog without a prong collar, meaning that if I lose control over the leash/collar, that dog is going to be out of control, and may bite someone or kill their dog -- I could not in good conscience keep the dog, and I could only rehome such a dog with full disclosure, so the chances are that the dog would be very hard to place.
> ...


Actually, one *can* train a dog so that they don't know or realize when they have or don't have a particular collar on, or whether a leash is attached.

If one uses a a prong collar or an e-collar to train AKC obedience, then one HAS to be able to control your dog without either if you want to show. These training aids are not allowed in the show ring.

Anyone who uses treats to train (do you?) has the same problem as treats are also not allowed in the show ring so don't you think the dogs can tell if you have treats in your pocket? If so then they wouldn't obey then either - or is it just the prong collar that they would know about and thus change their behavior.

For people who know what they are doing (like any training approach/technique), the prong collar CAN be a miracle (almost!) happening for their training success! Seen it happen too often not to believe. Not every time but often enough to know that the prong is a useful training tool for some dogs and some people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kentucky is a LONG way away. I can actually walk to Lake Erie -- it would take me a few hours, but I have actually done it. That how far away I am. I have been down to Kentucky once when I was 10 years old to visit my cousin. It took us three days. The motels had cockroaches. Dad slept in the car two of the nights. The car broke down on the highway and all seven of us slept in the car that night. Dad got chiggers.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Codmaster, I use treats in puppy kindergarten, and basic obedience class -- the first one, then I rarely have any treats in my pocket. I train initially with treats just get them into position, and treat and praise. But I do not want to have a pocket full of boloney all the time. So I want to get to just praise. 

My dogs work for praise. I have it with me all the time. It does not stink up my pockets. 

So yes and no about treats. In the very beginning, I will use them, but I do not even phase them out. I just don't take them with after the first few classes. My dogs are deprived. They do not even expect treats. But sometimes, we go for ice cream afterwards.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think prong collars are wonderful tools..And if someone has a big strong strapping dog, and the handler has a disability, it allows them to control a dog they may otherwise not be able to.

I am all for phasing it out via training but if some don't, well that's their choice to continue to use it for whatever reason. 

I use one off and on with Masi, she can be a puller at times (when she goes into tracking mode when we aren't tracking and I have no problem suggesting it's use to others.

I guess I would ask Sue, since your so anti prong collars, if you have ever tried one? Just curious.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have two. 

I got the one for Dubya before my surgery on my wrist. I thought I would not be able to take any pressue on the lead. But I could not put it on him with my wrist the way it was. So it was a complete waste of money.

The second I got because it was smaller lighter and had a freaky quick release. I am a cyclist and just loved it when they came out with quick release wheels. Well, why not quick release prong collar. Well I tried to put it on the dog, and you have this tiny chain that you have to feed through this tiny hole while the dog is flipping out, and then snatch it with this quick release thing that is kind of like a scissors. Quick release it might be. Quick connect a whole other story. It was the second biggest waste of money I have ever managed. I never used it.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> I have two.(Shorten for length)...
> . Well I tried to put it on the dog, and you have this tiny chain that you have to feed through this tiny hole while the dog is flipping out, and then snatch it with this quick release thing that is kind of like a scissors. Quick release it might be. Quick connect a whole other story. It was the second biggest waste of money I have ever managed. I never used it.


I have just the thing to correct your bouncing dog. Its quick, reliable and always handy. It won't hurt the dog if used properly, and you shouldn't feel guilty about using it. I call it a 'sit'. When used, the dog should sit still so you can put on the collar. I have found this usefull elsewhere, like at street lights, meeting new people, brushing teeth, and more. Let your imagination take you-the sit is really versatile and I recommend it to anyone! I even found this emicon to show you what a sit looks like :gsdsit:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The quick release prongs are the ones that I wouldn't trust to stay together, if you use a prong, use a quality one, Herm Springer stainless....


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Herm Springer, small links. 
No quick release.

Light touch = good training


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Right, I agree, I have no use for them. My dogs can and do sit when I put a collar on them. But if you have a nutcase dog that needs a prong collar, they are not necessarily the easiest things to put on, especially if the whole point was because your hand was majorly screwed up. Even with the dog sitting, threading that prong collar quick release was too hard. 

Heidi has never had any type of training collar on, not ever. She has never needed one, and that is the case with most of my dogs. Dolly is just crazy enough, she may be the one that makes me break down and get on board with a prong collar.


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