# Do American GSD breeders need to take their blinders off?



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

This statement was made by Jean Mueller……"Let it be noted that many of the working German line GSDs today are extremely well balanced with excellent temperament. American GSD breeders need to take their blinders off to see what a REAL GSD is all about." 

Mueller also discusses in depth the American Showline having extremely slouched hindquarters….something that is considered desirable by American Showline breeders….but may not be in the best interest for the GSD. Please follow this link. Balance Problems with the American Show German Shepherd 

Here is a statement from this website-I will guarantee you that Max Von Stephanitz never had the American German Shepherd in mind when he wrote his standards for the breed in the early 1900's.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I received "The German Shepherd Dog" by Ernest H. Hart from a friend who found it at a garage sale for 50cents. Published 1985. Mr Hart is a AKC judge, breeder of German Shepherds, etc etc

In this edition, he talks in various parts about the "new" trend in overangulation in the American dogs. He calls it a caricature and even expresses a desire for it to be added to the standard. "Also, it is my contention that overangulation should be mentioned and considered a fault. Coupled with short hocks it can affect movement. The end result of overangulation is sickle hocks." pg 168-169

On structure: "...the American-bred is the more beautiful animal and the German-bred the sounder dog. This is as it should be, for the German dog has been bred from its conception to be a working dog, the utilitarian animal supreme, while the American-bred has been selected solely for its beauty." pg 139

When I read the first section, I could only think "my how times have changed"


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

I understand that everyone has their own likes and preferences, but I personally cannot find anything really desirable in the really extreme Am Show lines. I will say that I like how they're diverse in color and not all black/red, but they just seem too long and loose.. the judges may think they have a beautiful trot but IMO their movement looks awkward and at its worst, clumsy. Not the agile, powerful dogs that I normally think of when I think of a GSD.

I'm curious to see what happens a few years down the road if people keep pushing the extreme end of things, just how much worse can it get? 

I do really wish though that the US could adopt a similar program as in Germany, with requiring at least basic health/temperament testing and maybe some other kind of measure before breeding. I respect the show breeders who do more with their dogs than just having them "look pretty".

Either way it's a touchy subject that I think gets discussed pretty often, so I'll leave it at that. :crazy:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think alot of breeders need to take their blinders off, not just am show lines, but all the varieties.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Great article and pictures for ALL GSD's owners to read... what we buy and are looking for is pushing the market. And if we don't know cause aren't educated, then we won't be able to help make the breed what we want (or don't want!)


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think alot of breeders need to take their blinders off, not just am show lines, but all the varieties.



How true!!! There are good,bad, mediocre and down right awful in ALL lines and of course in all breeds. I think if we all stopped picking but raised awareness, and tried to work together and educate we might all be better. The number 1 thing is buyers, yep buyers, if we taught people what to ask, what to expect and what to desire we could start down a much better path. If we could dry up the buyers maybe some breeders would have to evaluate their breeding practices. 

I do feel the health and temperment must take priority!!!! And by temperment, some of the working line people have to back off as well!!! Some of the over the top, high energy aggressive dogs should not be bred any more than the spook from the other lines. The breed is not supposed to be running on crack, but calm and watchful. All dogs should be able to go and lay down and relax in any situation. Some times winning means incorrect breeding, that doesn't make it right, no matter what venue you are in!!!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is hard to change your conception of beauty.... when for all your time in something, you admire and want to achieve a certain look - even when you start to understand teh deficiency inherent with the look, you (a collective, not specific) cannot change your fundamental belief that that look is incorrect or damaged! Used to know 2 ASL people...even though they switched, they still thought the ASLs were beautiful and the wLs deficient - of course, their characters matched their ASLs - very deficient.... 

Too many kennel blind people in every type, and every breed....and too many people breeding to market niche who have no clue about what they are doing. Threads about this over and over and over.

Lee

L


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

But not all ASL dogs look like that, or act like that. Just because you don't agree with us doesn't mean that it is OK to trash our dogs. My dogs have been doing both performace and conformation for 25+ years. 

Yes, there are some that continue to breed to the extreme, and what the average ASL breeder calls extreme is probably more than what others would call extreme. But the pendulum seems to be swinging back toward the middle as there are fewer spcialty shows and more of the champions are finishing in the smaller all-breed rings.

The dogs on either coast tend to be more extreme than the dogs in the center of the country.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

there are exceptions to every comment Andaka - you are well spoken of....

Lee


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

In dog shows, do you think that overangulation should be considered a fault? 
I guess my problem with this whole thing is that I have heard over and over how we all need to educate ourselves regarding the GSD breed so that we can learn the value of preserving this breed to be what it was originally intended to be, which is a working dog. The qualities that distinguish this breed from any other, are they being watered down in the show line? As I seek to educate myself about the GSD, I keep coming across this over and over. I apologize if my questions are offensive to any breeders here, I am just trying to figure this all out.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

What bothers me most about the article is that it only talks about the rear structure and never addresses how it works with the front assembly. The upper arm should be the same length as the shoulder blade and set on at an angle of 90 degrees. The connection of the stifle to the upper thigh should also be at 90 degrees. German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard Link to the Standard.










This is one of my bitches from days gone by. Note how close her feet are to the ground while still showing that flying trot.










This is the same dog in a show pose.

This is another one of my bitches. She is not as balanced as the irst one. She has more rear angulation than she does in the front.










This her in a show pose.










This is yet another one of my bitches. This one is somewhat lacking in both front and rear.










And in a show pose.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think alot of breeders need to take their blinders off, not just am show lines, but all the varieties.


I am right there with ya sister...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, over angulation should be penalized in the show ring. Extreme angulation can result in faults of movement that are truly incorrect. Some judges will penalize the extreme dog who travels with faults of gait. I have certainly seen this happen. 

The American dog is bred for beauty. That is, of course, in the eye of the beholder! Working temperament and abilities has not been well preseved. No secret. They are not all a bunch of over angulated hock twisting, front lifting incorrect dogs though. I know the pendulum has swung away from that extremely and faulty specimen to a large degree. That particular type was mostly seen in the specialty ring...not so much in all-breed rings.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Samba said:


> The American dog is bred for beauty. That is, of course, in the eye of the beholder!


 I agree with that. Even if we forget about the working ability, I just can't see the beauty everyone talks about in Am showlines. It's not meant as an offense towards ASL owners and breeders, it's just that I fail to appreciate the looks of their dogs.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I know many do not like the look of them, especially the more extreme ones. I believe my black bitch to be beautiful though!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

GSD07 said:


> I agree with that. Even if we forget about the working ability, I just can't see the beauty everyone talks about in Am showlines. It's not meant as an offense towards ASL owners and breeders, it's just that I fail to appreciate the looks of their dogs.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We ALL think we have better taste and judgment than everyone else. As for me, I like the American lines that are not over-angulated and same for German lines. I fail to appreciate the stodgy, colorless, drab looking German and Czec sables. But that is only my opinion and I don't expect ANYONE to agree with it. I also don't like Black GSDS but only because it is hard to see how 
beautiful they are due to lack of markings. ( I'm sure that makes no sense to some)
What I really appreciate is a dog that is sound and fully functional in body and temperament.
But I repeat: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

You can see why I won't make it in the breed ring cause I thought this dog was the most beautiful!!!!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think alot of breeders need to take their blinders off, not just am show lines, but all the varieties.


Ding, ding, ding!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> You can see why I won't make it in the breed ring cause I thought this dog was the most beautiful!!!!


Me too, me too. hahaha. 
I too think she's the most gorgeous of all of them.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Me 3!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh, now, what's not to love? :wub:


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> You can see why I won't make it in the breed ring cause I thought this dog was the most beautiful!!!!



Oh good it's not just me! :crazy:


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

Me 3 on that last female.

I understand there are problems with all the lines. My least favs are most of the american and german show lines...

Sure some of those ASL dogs can herd. But can they even jump over anything? 

Everything gets uglier the more it splits...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> But can they even jump over anything?


They most definitely can. Mirada's currently participating in agility, and she is kicking my male's butt in terms of jumping.

She has a cleaner, more collected, better timed jumping style than he does. Strauss has most definitely improved, but Mirada is a natural jumper.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I wish my specialty bitch could not jump so well. She is always vaulting over something crazy. Sure, you get a super extreme, wobbly, locked up dog and they aren 't jumping well. But, they aren't correct for the show ring either.

When I get a chance, I will begin jumping the show girls and see how high they can get.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My ASL show dog Carly is crazy agile. 

Tippy-toeing along the back of one couch like a cat, leaping over my head when I sit on the other couch. Yeah, she needs some manners. 

I'm looking for agility classes for her. I don't know how fast she'll be, but I have no doubt that she can jump and climb.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Question: On the picture of Carly, why is she holding her tail like that....is this natural or what?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)




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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Obviously they are not all cripples. Things are even much cleaned up in the specialty ring.
Many retain herding instincts and a natural obedience with willingness to work with the handler.

Watch out for nerve strength as it has not generally been well preserved throughout. I often find myself wishing for stronger temperamnent in many.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

I'll eat my words when I see an ASL or even a GSL dog get a Ring or SchH title...and I don't mean a trainer title-I mean you show this work to people who are really into shutzhund, know what they are seeing, and get a general consensus of "Wow, what great work". 

I don't consider them a good example of the breed (generally a lot of overangulation, only traces of any decent nerve or drive), but I don't consider GSL dogs good examples either. I don't know what is worse-the over angulation trend and wierd balance, or the roach backs. 

My middle dog would hands down be consider my best looking GSD in terms of the standard. He is a head turner, people stop their cars to look at him and talk about him. He is the only shepherd I have who does that flying trot. But he is the unhealthiest dog I have ever owned in my life. Pannus, Allergies, Nerve issues, drive issues, hip issues, had a TPLO already for an LP...and here I was thinking he would be more than a pet. 

I'm not tryin to rag on them, but every single showline dog I have met did not give me an impression of a powerful dog that could do anything. All I saw was a nervous dog that looked like it would fall over if I poked it. This has been from meeting dogs in public and at shows. I have been to 3 agility shows, and have never seen a GSD there. These were AKC shows.

This is why I love all these pictures you all are psoting. They are out there! There really needs to be more though. Several won't change my mind. Countless ones will.

Seeing the GSL ones do Schutzhund is , I think they are my least fav.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

Samba said:


> Obviously they are not all cripples. Things are even much cleaned up in the specialty ring.
> Many retain herding instincts and a natural obedience with willingness to work with the handler.
> 
> Watch out for nerve strength as it has not generally been well preserved throughout. I often find myself wishing for stronger temperamnent in many.


The most recent show ones I saw at the AKC show in Long Beach sure looked like cripples. They looked like a bad joke, paddling around looking scared half to death. I saw the winner, and I thought if I sneezed that dog was going to fall over. 

At meet the breed, all the dogs were shy. Their eyes were bugged out, they were very anxious. I tried to pet one, letting him smell my hand first. He SHIED and crawled in his owners lap. They thought it was cute.

Um...

But to not be a negative nancy, I will agree with you that they are the most likely GSDs to actually herd. The most GSDs I have seen herding were American line dogs of the non-specialty variety. 

My two boys, both American type, could use some oompf in the nerve and drive depts, for sure.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

TankGrrl66 said:


> I'll eat my words when I see an ASL or even a GSL dog get a Ring or SchH title...and I don't mean a trainer title-I mean you show this work to people who are really into shutzhund, know what they are seeing, and get a general consensus of "Wow, what great work".


So... how a GSD performs in ScH determines if it's a qaulity GSD or not? 

Maybe I missed something, but when was this breed specifically designed for the sport of ScH? Why does ScH determine the dog?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Lucy Dog said:


> Why does ScH determine the dog?


If you have an ability to read dogs, you can tell a TON by watching a dog train in all three phases of schutzhund.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

gagsd said:


> If you have an ability to read dogs, you can tell a TON by watching a dog train in all three phases of schutzhund.


Ditto.

Also, this test/sport was created to judge which GSDs were the best stock...if they had the traits that defined them as good examples of the breed.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> So... how a GSD performs in ScH determines if it's a qaulity GSD or not?
> 
> Maybe I missed something, but when was this breed specifically designed for the sport of ScH? Why does ScH determine the dog?


Yes. It tests the dog more than trotting it around a ring saying it looks pretty, that is for sure. 

Shutzhund was specifically designed for this breed to judge the quality of the dogs, and test them for the traits desired for the breed. 

ScH determines if the dog has a good temperment, drives, control, and good enough build to pass the physical part, for starters. It tests the ability of the dog to keep a level head during protection (the switch this breed is famous for), tests tracking ability and obedience.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Oh I definitely agree that it's a much much better test for the breed than just trotting around a ring and looking pretty. Thats not even a question.

I just don't see how a dog who performs only exceptionally well in a sport is what would be considered as to what determines the best of the best when it comes to this breed - in all of it's (the breed) aspects. I think there's a lot more to this breed than how it performs on a schutzhund field.

What was created first... Schutzhund or the GSD? Was the breed created intentionally for Schutzhund?

What makes schutzhund something more important than something like herding?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Oh I definitely agree that it's a much much better test for the breed than just trotting around a ring and looking pretty. Thats not even a question.
> 
> I just don't see how a dog who performs only exceptionally well in a sport is what would be considered as to what determines the best of the best when it comes to this breed - in all of it's (the breed) aspects. I think there's a lot more to this breed than how it performs on a schutzhund field.
> 
> What was created first... Schutzhund or the GSD? Was the breed created intentionally for Schutzhund?


No, Schutzhund was created specifically for the breed, by the creator of the breed as the test for the breed... 

Schutzhund was created very specifically for the purpose of testing the worthiness of GSDs, and if they had all the qualities Max and the SV felt that a GSD should have.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> What makes schutzhund something more important than something like herding?


This is something I've wondered about Schutzhund, though. If it's designed as a breed test and the dogs are, after all, shepherds, why doesn't it test for herding instinct?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

paulag1955 said:


> This is something I've wondered about Schutzhund, though. If it's designed as a breed test and the dogs are, after all, shepherds, why doesn't it test for herding instinct?


:thumbup:
Because somewhere along the line the whole reason why this breed was brought into existence has evolved so far, that many people even forget that their very name testifies that they were bred to be the German SHEPHERD Dog.

Here is the reason why they were bred-taken out of an Encyclopedia.

The German Shepherd Dog (GSD, also known as an Alsatian), (German: Deutscher Schäferhund) is a breed of large-sized dog that originated in Germany.[2] The German Shepherd is a relatively new breed of dog, with its origin dating to 1899. As part of the Herding Group, the German Shepherd is a working dog developed originally for herding and guarding sheep.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Andaka said:


> But not all ASL dogs look like that, or act like that. Just because you don't agree with us doesn't mean that it is OK to trash our dogs. My dogs have been doing both performace and conformation for 25+ years.
> 
> Yes, there are some that continue to breed to the extreme, and what the average ASL breeder calls extreme is probably more than what others would call extreme. But the pendulum seems to be swinging back toward the middle as there are fewer spcialty shows and more of the champions are finishing in the smaller all-breed rings.
> 
> The dogs on either coast tend to be more extreme than the dogs in the center of the country.


I attend an outdoor AKC show in Canfield Ohio. This year I wasnt able to be out in the sun as much so missed most of it,however in years past I've gone to the GSD specailty show and the Thursday ,Friday Saturday All breed GSD showing. I've met some breeders, got to hold the leash on the sideline of a non showing dog and play w/couple of dogs and most of the dogs I met did not seem as angulated as some of the pictures Ive seen on the net.I havent met any breeders from either coast but alot of breeders from Penn,Ohio and Indianna etc. They (the dogs) were friendly and seemed very engaged w/people. Several breeders I met titled dogs in herding,agility and obedience. Is the fact that most breeders appear to be from the midwest at that show why I havent seen the nearly crippled GSDs ?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

TankGrrl66 said:


> Yes. It tests the dog more than trotting it around a ring saying it looks pretty, that is for sure.
> 
> Shutzhund was specifically designed for this breed to judge the quality of the dogs, and test them for the traits desired for the breed.


How much as Schutzhund changed over the years as far as how the dogs are tested in the 3 phases? Assuming what we see today aren't the exact same tests that were done in the early or mid 1900's??


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> > *Originally Posted by Lucy Dog *
> > What makes schutzhund something more important than something like herding?
> 
> 
> This is something I've wondered about Schutzhund, though. If it's designed as a breed test and the dogs are, after all, shepherds, why doesn't it test for herding instinct?



Remember that getting a Schutzhund 1 was the MINIMUM requirement for a dog to be considered breed-worthy, and would not be allowed to breed if it did not have at least that much. That so many GSDs today cannot even attain the minimum is a sad state of affairs. Either a Schutzhund title of a German-style sheep tending herding title was acceptable working titles for breeding purposes. 

Also, despite the quote from the encyclopedia - the breed was not developed _for _ herding, it was developed _from_ herding dogs, to be a multi-purpose dog. (the breed being developed for herding was something I used to believe and "educate" people about until someone more knowledgeable set me straight.  )

Even before the age of the internet, print media did a good job of repeating and propagating myths, inaccuracies, and urban legends.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Remember that getting a Schutzhund 1 was the MINIMUM requirement for a dog to be considered breed-worthy, and would not be allowed to breed if it did not have at least that much. That so many GSDs today cannot even attain the minimum is a sad state of affairs. Either a Schutzhund title of a German-style sheep tending herding title was acceptable working titles for breeding purposes.
> 
> Also, despite the quote from the encyclopedia - the breed was not developed _for _ herding, it was developed _from_ herding dogs, to be a multi-purpose dog. (the breed being developed for herding was something I used to believe and "educate" people about until someone more knowledgeable set me straight.  )
> 
> Even before the age of the internet, print media did a good job of repeating and propagating myths, inaccuracies, and urban legends.


Speaking of myths, legends, and inaccuracies... I am not 100% sure if this is true, but I have read more than once that by the time von Stephanitz introduced the GSD, sheep tending and herding was on a serious decline in Germany. If that is the case it makes sense that the dog, while called a "shepherd" and breed from shepherding dogs, was actually designed as a working breed to fill many roles...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I see dogs mostly in the midwest. I have heard there are definite regional differences. I am in the area where the some of the largest shows are held. I am sure the dogs who are shown still look extreme to many. It is all a matter of degree. But, I know there is improvement from when I first started going to shows. I have a female who is difficult to beat in the gaiting area. At the shows we have been to, she has never been out moved. Even then, she is not incorrect in the rear. She moves parallel going away. She is balanced and suspended at the trot. Schutzhund candidate....nope. Those genetics have not been selected for over generations.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> Also, despite the quote from the encyclopedia - the breed was not developed _for _ herding, it was developed _from_ herding dogs, to be a multi-purpose dog. (the breed being developed for herding was something I used to believe and "educate" people about until someone more knowledgeable set me straight.  ).


Good point. But were the dogs used as herding dogs or no?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Some were used as herding dogs.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, there are herding lines, and they are still used for herding. 

Check this out:

Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training

also this link:
History of the German Shepherd dog and Herding, Tehillah German Shepherds
part of this site:
Tehillah German Shepherds, Home of Canada's number 1 High in Trial German Shepherds


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Also, despite the quote from the encyclopedia - the breed was not developed _for _ herding, it was developed _from_ herding dogs, to be a multi-purpose dog. (the breed being developed for herding was something I used to believe and "educate" people about until someone more knowledgeable set me straight.  )
> 
> Even before the age of the internet, print media did a good job of repeating and propagating myths, inaccuracies, and urban legends.


Although it is true that GSD's were intended to do muti-purpose work, I believe it is important not to diminish the importance that it was to Stephanitz that the GSD be able to be a darn good herder.

German Shepherd History and Max von Stephanitz' Breeding Qualities for the German Shepherd
“Utility and intelligence” - these were, for von Stephanitz, the most important qualities of the German Shepherd, and this became the motto and oft-repeated mantra of the German Shepherd Dog Club. While one often thinks of German Shepherds today as being creatures of astounding physical beauty and elegance, these qualities were for Stephanitz subordinate. Even the most beautiful dog in the world, Stephanitz reasoned, was useless if it could not serve man well, living up to the standards of its name. Intelligence, temperament, and the ability to learn quickly and carry out its master's orders were far more important in this regard. *Elements like structure, gait, and attitude were planned out by Stephanitz not for their aesthetic or even emotional appeal, but rather for their usefulness in creating an efficient sheep-herder.*

Source:
German Shepherd History | Max von Stephanitz Breeding | "Utility and Intelligence"

Do you agree with the bolded part of this text?


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Although it is true that GSD's were intended to do muti-purpose work, I believe it is important not to diminish the importance that it was to Stephanitz that the GSD be able to be a darn good herder.
> 
> German Shepherd History and Max von Stephanitz' Breeding Qualities for the German Shepherd
> “Utility and intelligence” - these were, for von Stephanitz, the most important qualities of the German Shepherd, and this became the motto and oft-repeated mantra of the German Shepherd Dog Club. While one often thinks of German Shepherds today as being creatures of astounding physical beauty and elegance, these qualities were for Stephanitz subordinate. Even the most beautiful dog in the world, Stephanitz reasoned, was useless if it could not serve man well, living up to the standards of its name. Intelligence, temperament, and the ability to learn quickly and carry out its master's orders were far more important in this regard. *Elements like structure, gait, and attitude were planned out by Stephanitz not for their aesthetic or even emotional appeal, but rather for their usefulness in creating an efficient sheep-herder.*
> ...


I agree, and i'm rather fond of the quote in my sig. I think for the most part form can follow function, I mean if you think about it back in the day the most efficient and skilled workers would be those that were chosen to be bred, yes? There would be no sense in breeding a dog that may be aesthetically pleasing, but absolutely terrible at herding or protecting livestock. Fortunately for me I find working dogs to be very appealing, nothing better than seeing a dog enjoying something it was made to do.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I'll be super honest: I've never seen nor even been near to an american line GSD. All I've seen are pictures and videos, but I've been reading this kind of threads for... 4 years now?

That is why seeing always the same pictures of the same dogs posted by the same person makes me wonder if it is not the exception that proves the rule.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Lucia, thanks for those links.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Question: On the picture of Carly, why is she holding her tail like that....is this natural or what?













When she was stacked for the photo, no one positioned her tail. It just fell that way. She has a normal tail:


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

TankGrrl66 said:


> I'll eat my words when I see an ASL _*or even a GSL*_ dog get a Ring or SchH title... .


Um, a LOT of WGSL's have SchH titles!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

dogfaeries said:


> When she was stacked for the photo, no one positioned her tail. It just fell that way. She has a normal tail:


That middle photo is just plain awful. Painful to look at.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

paulag1955 said:


> Good point. But were the dogs used as herding dogs or no?


Yes, some were....again...because they were designed FROM herding breeds as the ultimate UTILITY (ie all around dog). Herding lost its impact on the development of the breed early on because...bottom line is...that herding was no longer an significant portion of what working dogs represented. Just not as many needed, period. 

Let's not forget, the first SchH trial was held just years after the breed was founded....and run by the founder himself. Like it or not, it was started by Max as a breed test because it does the best job in showing the many facets of the breed.....obedience, protection, and nose work.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

During the creators time passing a Sch one or passing a HGH herding test were required testing for a dog to be breed worthy, BUT the Herding test had protection work with a bite on the man in a sleeve take place. No matter how you slice it the breed was always intended to be able to do manwork when put in a situation that it is necessary....dogs that don't possess this characteristic are deficient and should not be bred no matter how pretty.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> During the creators time passing a Sch one or passing a HGH herding test were required testing for a dog to be breed worthy, BUT the Herding test had protection work with a bite on the man in a sleeve take place. No matter how you slice it the breed was always intended to be able to do manwork when put in a situation that it is necessary....dogs that don't possess this characteristic are deficient and should not be bred no matter how pretty.


You are absolutely right Cliff . Max's choice of Horand is indicative of what he had in mind. Horand's pedigree contained an equal amount of the 4 foundational breeds that make up the German shepherd. 1/2 of the bloodline carried the traits of the Thurginger dogs - "yard" dogs for the wealthy land owners in Germany during his time. Dogs that would pursue threats and could bite. The other 1/2 represented the "farm" dogs of the Wurttemberg region that were slow to anger/bite and a protector/herder of sheep. I can't read Max's mind but it would appear that he tried to balance the traits of both and produce functional dogs that could serve mankind. His selection of Champions indicates that physical looks (pretty dogs that gait like a Troy-Built tiller) wasn't consider as essential. JMO


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> That middle photo is just plain awful. Painful to look at.


The last two are painful to look at. It looks like she can't even support herself on those legs. Like they are weak or something. :help:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> During the creators time passing a Sch one or passing a HGH herding test were required testing for a dog to be breed worthy, BUT the Herding test had protection work with a bite on the man in a sleeve take place. No matter how you slice it the breed was always intended to be able to do manwork when put in a situation that it is necessary....dogs that don't possess this characteristic are deficient and should not be bred no matter how pretty.


I got a book from AbbyK9 that is describing the very beginnings of the Schutzhund dogs in the military. Interestingly (and I didn't even know that) the very first Schutzhunds (in the military) didn't attack. They seeked the enemy, once they had the smell, they came back with the bringsel in their mouth and lead the Soldiers back to the enemy. Literally the same thing we do in SAR just that we recover and rescue people and don't kill them or take them prisoners. 

The one thing those dogs needed were stable and rock solid nerves because of the sound of tanks, grenades, shots etc. They had to be focused on the job 150% despite the flying grenades.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Let's not forget, the first SchH trial was held just years after the breed was founded....and run by the founder himself. Like it or not, it was started by Max as a breed test because it does the best job in showing the many facets of the breed.....obedience, protection, and nose work.


I don't like it or dislike it...it is what it is. I just love all the background information on the breed!


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

I have a questions, as I am not as knowledgeable on the breed as I should be. Meika is almost identical to picture D in the article, although I think her back hips are at a very slight incline (possibly).
Does this mean she is better for herding? She herds the other dogs around the yard and I have been thinking of getting her into herding classes now that we have moved to OKC area.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I think we should all agree it is the worst of the showline that gets the most talked about, if anyone sees a really bad photo or video it will be posted and reposted to show the point that the whole line is no good. The fact is there are millions of ASL and pet lines out there, there are millions of GSL and working lines, and by showcasing the worst we only cause more division. Instead of all saying what Von Stephanitz wanted from the breed and for the breed, lets move on from where we are NOW.. 

Lets try to nicely encourage training, socializing, well thought out breedings and try to be inclusive. Try to bring the lines into an accepted place, a place where the breed could be seen out and about with out people thinking they were going to be attacked, that these dogs were uncontrollable and should only be in the hands of the police or army. The breed should be safe in anyone's hands.. A well bred, well trained dog should be able to go into crowds and anywhere and be civil and not afraid. So lets try to all get together for the health of the breed, both physical health and mental


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let's try to breed dogs to the standard and expectations of what the breed was meant to be...period. If we do that we have good dogs that can meet working requirements and social requirements. I am not going to remain silent on salients aspects of the breed just to get along. That and ignorance of the breed is what's wrong with the breed today. Just like somebody just articulated that Sch was not created for German Shepherds so why are people constantly referring to it with the breed. These kind of statements unless checked and corrected lead whole divisions of people to go into their own direction thus creating these dogs that have glaring deficiencies. Uncontrolled aggression is just as bad as unnoble shyness. The breed calls for a strong stable dog, but it also calls for a dog capable of proper aggression in the execution of some duties. All dogs won't possess the same level of aggression, and many owners will seek dogs that are more moderate, BUT breeders have a responsibility and obligation to breed dogs that some are capable of having and using this aggression properly. (If they are reputable breeders, cause its what the breed was meant to be)
By the same token all books, accounts, periodicals, standards, educated opinions, state that unsureness or shyness has no place in this breed and should not be bred...period!
Let's not get this thing twisted....you can't reconcile breeding faulty dogs temperamentally, to get along; or because you like the way they look or perform. Period!


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

dogfaeries;222721
[IMG said:


> http://www.dogfaeries.com/MiscPhotos/carly/carly_stack.jpg[/IMG]


I'm trying to get a better idea here.. those who breed/show ASL, are dogs like this preferred solely because it gives them a "nice" trot around the show ring or because someone insisted it's more efficient for herding, or both? From the ASL dogs i've seen they just look so.. loose and floppy, I guess is the best way I can explain it and anything faster or slower than a trot doesn't look too efficient. I've been really trying to see the other side of things, but it's difficult to understand how this is what the AKC thinks is the embodiment of what a good, functional shepherd should be. :help:

How do these dogs do as they age? Do they generally have a tougher time than a dog that isn't built as extremely? my only personal experience with was with a CanSL dog that I took in temporarily and it was painful to look at her, at 8 years old she was so far down on her hocks and pasterns, and was a pretty awkward looking dog as far as movement was concerned. She got a little better with supplements and a little more exercise.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> The last two are painful to look at. It looks like she can't even support herself on those legs. Like they are weak or something. :help:





> That middle photo is just plain awful. Painful to look at.



Not only can she _support_ herself, she can climb, jump and tippy-toe across any narrow surface. She is extremely agile. She is also tireless. She has a very stable temperament, and a crazy ball drive. 

While you are very entitled to your opinion of ASL dogs, please remember that you are insulting _my_ dog, not a photo of a random dog on the Internet.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

dogfaeries said:


> Not only can she _support_ herself, she can climb, jump and tippy-toe across any narrow surface. She is extremely agile. She is also tireless. She has a very stable temperament, and a crazy ball drive.
> 
> While you are very entitled to your opinion of ASL dogs, please remember that you are insulting _my_ dog, not a photo of a random dog on the Internet.


All due respect but I wasn't insulting your dog, I was making an observation. I believe that if you post a picture in this forum there is always the chance that not everyone will say, " Oh, she's beautiful!". It's called free speech within the rules of the forum. I expect that some people don't like the looks of my dog and that's their rightful opinion. If someone called me on a noticeable conformation problem with my dog I would hope to not take it personally. In that second picture, the angulation seemed extreme to me, but that's only one man's opinion.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> During the creators time passing a Sch one or passing a HGH herding test were required testing for a dog to be breed worthy, BUT the Herding test had protection work with a bite on the man in a sleeve take place. No matter how you slice it the breed was always intended to be able to do manwork when put in a situation that it is necessary....dogs that don't possess this characteristic are deficient and should not be bred no matter how pretty.


Cliff, 
Did they just tack on herding to the normal Sch test for those who wanted to test their dogs in that venue? (just wondering how it all worked)


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Cliff,
> Did they just tack on herding to the normal Sch test for those who wanted to test their dogs in that venue?


No. The protection requirement is not based on the SchH trial protection rules. And there is no tracking or obedience based on those phases, either. The HGH symbolizes a day with a flock (in brief). I believe that the rationale was to recognize that the dog may have to protect the shepherd from a robber, although from a breed standpoint it is about demonstrating the required character.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Not sure about your question, but I think you may be confused when saying "for those that wanted to test their dogs". 
I am not talking about testing their dogs, more accurate would be for "THOSE that wanted to BREED their dogs".
The importance of the protection aspect of the breed was so strong, that the founding body of the breed would NOT authorize a dog to be bred unless it passed either a Sch test, or acquired an HGH degree, both of which required the dog to be able to do manwork. The HGH test involved 200 to 300 sheep and required extensive work by the dog in coordination with the shepherd. 
If your dog couldn't pass these minium working requirements, then the puppies of the litter weren't registerable. It is clear that this breed was not supposed to be, nor allowed to, become a pet.(A pet being defined as a dog incapable of arduous work, to include protection work, because of physical or mental limitations).
I didn't conceive this concept, the reasonoing being if minimum standards weren't enacted, the physical/mental ability of the dog would eventually be compromised to the point that the breed would not be producing dogs to do what it was made to do. 
This isn't Cliff's concept....though some act like it, I just point out when I see the type dogs being promoted that don't adhere to the MINIMUM standards.
Actually, early in the creation of the breed it was projected that breeding for conformation or sport SOLELY, would be hurtful to the breed....again not something I created....People today can judge for themselves where they are on the curve. Getting defensive, about something being pointed out, if correct, is childish and should be embraced for the opportunity to move back to where the breed should be. 
I personally, don't think there is ANYBODY on this list or any other forum is in a position to feel that what they LIKE, should take precedence over what should be....its so clear and simple to me:help:.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> Not only can she _support_ herself, she can climb, jump and tippy-toe across any narrow surface. She is extremely agile. She is also tireless. She has a very stable temperament, and a crazy ball drive.
> 
> While you are very entitled to your opinion of ASL dogs, please remember that you are insulting _my_ dog, not a photo of a random dog on the Internet.


It's not meant to be an insult. That is just what it looks like. It's not the dogs or your fault.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Not sure about your question, but I think you may be confused when saying "for those that wanted to test their dogs".
> I am not talking about testing their dogs, more accurate would be for "THOSE that wanted to BREED their dogs".


Right, I knew that.  You had said:



> BUT the Herding test had protection work with a bite on the man in a sleeve take place.


That's what I was asking about. Was the dog approached by a helper while they were tending the sheep to see if the dog would protect the flock?


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> :thumbup:
> Because somewhere along the line the whole reason why this breed was brought into existence has evolved so far, that many people even forget that their very name testifies that they were bred to be the German SHEPHERD Dog.
> 
> Here is the reason why they were bred-taken out of an Encyclopedia.
> ...


Isn't there a herding test that tests the dog for protecting the sheep? It involves herding and bitework? Pretty cool.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Um, a LOT of WGSL's have SchH titles!


Continue reading where you cut my quote off.

Sure they have titles, but I have seen more than a few "champion" shows that have the "best of the best" and the handler is able to drive the dogs away. Maybe one or two show decent bitework. They don't hit hard, they let go, no full bites, the stick scares them...I mean really? Supposed SchH 3 dogs!!!!!! I have seen pit bulls do better shutzhund than that.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

Catu said:


> I'll be super honest: I've never seen nor even been near to an american line GSD. All I've seen are pictures and videos, but I've been reading this kind of threads for... 4 years now?
> 
> That is why seeing always the same pictures of the same dogs posted by the same person makes me wonder if it is not the exception that proves the rule.


I cannot answer for all asl owners on here, but the reason i do not post pictures or my dogs achievements on here anymore is because I feel this forum is comprised of people who own other types of gsd's. here are a couple of pics of my ASL bred dogs, the male(on the right) is a conformation champion and is starting his herding career, my female is just a year old and will start her show career soon.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

more pictures of my ASL


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

TankGrrl66 said:


> Isn't there a herding test that tests the dog for protecting the sheep? It involves herding and bitework? Pretty cool.


The definition of the word "shepherd" is to not only "herd" but to "protect".
Shepherds of old were not just there to guide the sheep but to protect them from predators also (I am talking about human shepherds).
So when the breed was being established did they want a dog who would protect the sheep as well as herd them? Those who are doing herding..is there any of that element in there? Or is the "bitework" side of things purely on the human side as in protecting us. Or as some have said was the herding just something that came along for the ride because they used herding breeds to establish the breed.


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## Fuse (Feb 25, 2010)

From a layman's perspective, breeders will keep breeding over angulated dogs as long as judges keep giving them awards and creating demand for them.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

horsegirl said:


> more pictures of my ASL
> View attachment 10747
> 
> 
> ...


You have beautiful dogs and should be proud of your achievements regardless of what others think. I would imagine a lot of hard work goes into showing your dogs. I don't think people on here would jump on you...I think most would congratulate you on your success. By the way the little dachshund is pretty cute too.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This is what I don't get....anybody that has an American Showline dog that embodies the standard both physically and mentally have every right to be proud to exhibit their dogs. I don't think that anyone should be criticizing another's dog that exhibits German Shepherd traits just because of the line it is from. A good representative of the breed is a good representative of the breed regardless of lines. But we can't have our personal likes and biases determine what a good reprentative of the breed. This should be done by the blueprint that is set up for the dog as a working dog. If your dog is cut out of that cloth, the color, or type, or line shouldn't matter. But if the dog is deficient in core aspects of the breed that prohibit the dog from functioning as a German Shepherd should, these things should be pointed out so that people will know and can learn. Now if upon being informed of the incorrectness, breeders chose to continue in a direction that undermines the essence of the breed as determined over the years, then they are ,imo, BYB and should be shunned. No different than the BYB who throws two dogs together, or the breeder who breeds a dyspastic dog to a dyspastic dog. The end result is hurting the breed and whether it is ignorance or ribbons, their is no justification if the breeder loves the breed. 
People want to see ASL dogs that represent the breed as it is supposed to be, least I do. I grew up on American bred dogs. And as long as they are good representatives of the breed, I will enjoy and appreciate them. But you can't ask people to compliment weak nerves, worried looks, clumsiness, extreme aggression or shyness, or any other major faults, regardless of lines. These dogs may well be beautiful to their owners and families, but they are not beautiful representatives of the breed, and that pertains to all lines.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

cliff... how often do you see the american lines of today exhibit what you think a GSD should be? Are they still out there?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I am sure they are out there...I guess the question is whether they are the norm or are they the exception. It really isn't about what I think, its all about whether they meet breed standard. I don't see a lot, but maybe they are all congregated in places I don't go to. Seriously, I am more disturbed by the ASL community that tries to improve their line, and hold onto the things that have them in the current situation. Makes no logical sense to me....but what do I know.


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## Anita11811 (May 10, 2011)

FALSE completly FALSE statement. I have a American line GSD and the only difference that I and everyone else can spot is that he has lighter colors. Everything else that is stated about them being long and loose or having low hindquarters is not true. People now a days have their opinions that go so far people begin to think its a fact. Am line Gsd`s are just as hard workers as any other line GSD. So i wonder what people think is TRUE about white Gsds or Black Gsds.........All Gsd`s are just as intelligent and fearless and all just as any other GSD no matter Color, weight, hieght, Or origin.!!!!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Anita11811 said:


> FALSE completly FALSE statement. I have a American line GSD and the only difference that I and everyone else can spot is that he has lighter colors. Everything else that is stated about them being long and loose or having low hindquarters is not true. People now a days have their opinions that go so far people begin to think its a fact. Am line Gsd`s are just as hard workers as any other line GSD. So i wonder what people think is TRUE about white Gsds or Black Gsds.........All Gsd`s are just as intelligent and fearless and all just as any other GSD no matter Color, weight, hieght, Or origin.!!!!


Out of curiosity...what do you do with your dog?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

cliff...they're out there, but i'm sorry to say they are the exception. for most of my life i had access to a very old bloodline that my family began in he late 50's early 60's. when the last of that line went to the bridge and my stored frozen semen was not viable (in '93), i was shocked at the myriad of health problems that had developed (back in the day it seemed there were only two things to worry about, hips and bloat). whoa, now there were eye problems, cardiac problems, pancreatic insufficiency, mega-e, on and on and on. in an effort to obtain that trot that covers maximum ground with minimum effort, much was sacrificed. i only know about what's now called american show lines...again, back in the day there were only two kinds of shepherds, american breds and imports. my grandfather was from germany and was an importer, but my father favored american bred dogs after he was influenced by grant mann, who was our neighbor and friend. when i was young i saw so many truly great dogs, both imports and american dogs, and it makes me really sad what has happened to the breed. there are some good breeders and healthy dogs out there, but they are the exception rather than the rule i'm afraid.

jmho from personal experience.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

sparra said:


> You have beautiful dogs and should be proud of your achievements regardless of what others think. I would imagine a lot of hard work goes into showing your dogs. I don't think people on here would jump on you...I think most would congratulate you on your success. By the way the little dachshund is pretty cute too.


thanks , lucy is our token gsd in a little body. Scrappy and tough , just the way I like them.
My male is stoic, drivey , aloof to strangers and makes good decisions regarding people or threats. My little bitch is just fearless at this point .


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## Anita11811 (May 10, 2011)

My Dog has been in all agility and obedience classes. For a 7 month old shepherd, he competes with 1-2 yr old dogs. we signed him up for personal protection a month ago and he is learning Faster then i thought. He is in herding classes also.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Anita11811 said:


> .....All Gsd`s are just as intelligent and fearless and all just as any other GSD no matter Color, weight, hieght, Or origin.!!!!


Wrong, wrong, wrong..... Imnsho.
I had someone tell me pretty much the same thing the other day, and it just makes me crazy.
I used to think it was just a lack of education (and I know that sometimes it is). But to say that there is no difference in the character, only in the color, is a statement with which I cannot agree. When you have people breeding primarily for temperament, and others primarily for looks, they CANNOT have the same outcome.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Am line Gsd`s are just as hard workers as any other line GSD.


I'm sorry, but as a WHOLE, this is not true :-/ It has not been bred for for generations, and it shows.

I love showing in AKC shows, and I love working dogs, but....the truth of the matter is that the little bitch I have? Well, she's not really the norm in terms of drive. She's got great prey drive, and she actually has excellent hunt drive from what I can see (yes, for serious, even though I've only been able to test it on toys).

She likes working sheep, is great in obedience, and is an overall hard worker.

But she lacks the nerve to truly protect when the chips are down. If I put her on a schutzhund field, the helper would scare her off on the long bite. She has great drive to play tug, but not to protect.

Many other American lines are very "flat" in general, unfortunately. You can teach them things, and they can get titles, but the work ethic is strongly lacking, and trying to motivate the dog is very difficult.

I DO think that more AmLine dogs would exhibit traits like my little bitch if people bothered to WORK with their dogs, instead of just keeping them in kennel runs until it's time for the next show....but they don't...and drives get squashed, never to be expressed, and you breed to more of the same, and you get a dog that may like to chase a ball recreationally, or will pick up something for you because you beg them to do it. But it's not a WORKING dog.

It's a tough thing to admit, but it is the truth.

I do see (young) AmLines out there with some drives that could make them fun to work and play with, but nobody cares. The majority just want their dog in the ribbons, and to finish them. Working is not a priority.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> ….But we can't have our personal likes and biases determine what a good reprentative of the breed…..But if the dog is deficient in core aspects of the breed that prohibit the dog from functioning as a German Shepherd should, these things should be pointed out so that people will know and can learn. Now if upon being informed of the incorrectness, breeders chose to continue in a direction that undermines the essence of the breed as determined over the years, then they are ,imo, BYB and should be shunned…..


I have learned a lot since I got my GSD. I went by my personal preferences when I got my dog, and had no regard for breed standards, because I didn't understand the importance. I have been learning about the history of the GSD, and the importance of breed standards. I have changed my mind about many things already. I know that next time I add another dog to my "pack" I will definitely shun BYB'ers.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I'm sorry, but as a WHOLE, this is not true :-/ It has not been bred for for generations, and it shows.



:thumbup: I think that the entire post was very nicely worded, honest, and intelligent. 



> FALSE completly FALSE statement. I have a American line GSD and the only difference that I and everyone else can spot is that he has lighter colors. Everything else that is stated about them being long and loose or having low hindquarters is not true. People now a days have their opinions that go so far people begin to think its a fact. Am line Gsd`s are just as hard workers as any other line GSD. So i wonder what people think is TRUE about white Gsds or Black Gsds.........All Gsd`s are just as intelligent and fearless and all just as any other GSD no matter Color, weight, hieght, Or origin.!!!!


I think for some people instead of getting defensive and claiming that the only difference between the types is color and that a (in this case) ASL dog can preform just as well as a WL in venues where the WL has been more or less shaped for is a bit silly and misguided. After seeing a few shows, and meeting some American and Canadian SL dogs the personal opinion I have of them is yes, they are a bit longer, lower, and looser looking than their working cousins. I'm not trying to be malicious and insult anyone's dog, i'm just making an observation and stating both my opinion and my personal preference for what I like to see in a dog. There are always exceptions as well, and I realize this. Heck, if someone can show me photos or video of ASL dogs doing protection sports or police work that would be pretty cool, not saying it's the only measure of worth but those are just areas I happen to have interest in. 

A quick Google search can sometimes give you an idea:

Show - http://www.whispawillowkennels.com/... male Tyson stacked - whispawillowkennels.jpg

Working - http://www.klgsd.com/WorkingLineExample.jpg


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There will be people who can show you video's of ASL doing protection work and even Sch. But they are so the exception that it is not worth proving. 
@Katieliz....I so agree with your post...people should read it three four times....I have often said that back in the fifties there were breeders in America that bred some of the finest German Shepherds in the world. We didn't go to Germany to get stock for either police, seeing-eye dogs, or military dogs. And most of these dogs were NOT sable. Sure dogs were imported then but Americans were breeding for the right reasons(neither show nor sport) and the end product generally was very good. Many many people are going to miss your point about the many illnesses of today in the breed and what we experienced back in the day. Science tells us that continued close breeding by a species will ultimately lead to defects in mental and physical health.....ASL breeders have done this since Lance, the proliferation of these health and temperament issues would be a natural result if science is correct. Still, opinions exist and people exist that do not see these things as prevalent in the line, and if you can't identify or accept a problem(whether it be from ignorance or stubboness), it is impossible to fix it.
Now someone will say but there is health issues and temperament issues in all lines....again that would be true, but if the AMOUNT of these issues is substantially higher than the natural order of mother nature than it is probably due to man's manipulation to get something that takes the breed out of balance.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

I have seen plenty of WL dogs exhibit poor temperament. On another forum, someone posted a video of dogs in Germany at a high end ScH trial and a lot of those dogs were pathetic. I have also seen dispositions that are way to sharp from WL dogs.

As someone mentioned on another thread, a lot of these top WL dogs are kennel dogs in Germany and not required to be social animals.

I believe that there are breed standard ASL and breed standard WL.... and crappy representatives of both.

So, a WL pedigree is not the "be all end all" as there are plenty of crappy WL dogs- don't believe me check youtube for some of these dogs competing in high end trials. You will see tail tuck, scared, running from helper, cowering, etc.

Plus, most ASL dogs do not compete in ScH but does that mean they couldn't do it? I don't know.

But, I think the dogs everyone is talking about is a very select group of ASL animals bred to be extreme. The speciality type dog is a very small percentage of the ASL as a whole, I believe. Please correct me if I am wrong....

It's just like when I bred arabian show horses. Everyone complained Arabians were just pretty statues.....and the top halter animals were. But, the other 95% were carrying their riders over endurance courses, jumping fences, working cattle, or pulling carts.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One other thing about the breed back in the day...it was perceived differently, it was sought for different purposes, expectations of owners for the breed was different, and all this has greatly changed over the years as a working dog bred by working minded people changed into a cosmetic dog bred by cosmetic seeking people.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

I think people are getting way too carried away. The ASL specialty dog is not that big a part of the breed! I think the majority of GSD owners strive for breed standard and dogs that can work. This is getting crazy on here....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ ninemaplefarm....your comment about kennels dogs and a correlation to being social is well just plain without foundation in any context. That post gives me the impression that the amount of true working dogs you have seen is limited. Most police dogs go home at night and live in a family...are they working dogs????Agrwww.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Cliffson, it wasn't from me. It was another thread, I think on the GSD Pedigree site, where people who compete with their working dogs in Germany said the top working line dogs were always kept in kennels in Germany. That's how they do it there. Their point was the dogs could be rather sharp in company.

Plus, I have been around a couple WL dogs and they are not for the average owner. But, I don't want to put them all in one basket. On other threads, some WL owners say things like nobody can handle their dogs except them or they will get attacked. 

Dogs bred for ScH type work are usually alpha type dogs with tons of confidence. These dogs are not for the faint of heart as a dog confident enough to try to rip someone's arm off in protection is, generally, not the average family pet-(meaning in the wrong hands the dog could get aggressive).

To say that the majority of ASL dogs would not protect their owners is a strong statement to make. How do you know? Are you judging them based on the tiny percentage of specialty dogs?

*edit- I don't want to get personal as everyone is entitled to their own opinion! Mine just differs from yours but I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ninemaplefarm, I ask you where are those dogs? There are countless thousands of American German Shepherds in this country. They are seldom seen in SAR, Service for visually impaired, police, military, Sch, and even when I occaisonally go to AKC show and watch the OBEDIENCE portion, I see more Black and red German showline that American. My point is where are all these dogs in terms of the vocations they were made famous for. Where??? These things I mentioned above used to abound with American line dogs....where are they now??? Do you honestly think the people in procurement are rejecting these dogs if they can do the job?? C'mon....take the blinders off. None of the breeders of American lines would want their dogs to be of service to mankind in which they were created for....C'mon....I am not bashing the dog I am just staing what is the condition of these lines in terms of what is out there today. It is, what it is and denying the facts won't help the situation. Focusing on working lines won't do one thing to help this situation....charity starts at home.
Or better yet, you give me a reason why there are so few American German shepherds in working vocations anymore, when American German Shepherds used to primarily occupy these roles in America. I'm curious as to educated on this.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

There are plenty of ASL dogs working! I, honesty, think you are overgeneralizing.....

I am not going to bash ASL dogs or German SL or German WL as I think there are great representatives in the breed in all of them!!!

For what it's worth, I have DDR/East German bloodlines but I have seen great dogs in all of the above bloodlines...including white german shepherds as well!!

I think there should be a focus on producing GSD that are to breed standard and can work- regardless of bloodline. That's my last post on it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ninemaplefarm...I don't get personal I stick to basics and facts and people get upset at me. In regards to your comments...you state you've been around a few workingline dogs, then make sweeping statements about the workinglines....based on what??? You make statements about Sch dogs....have you ever trained in Sch, owned one, or is this again another statement with little basis. (Remember every single German Shepherd that is bred and registered in Germany has a Sch title...there are hundreds of thousands German Shepherds in Germany...now wouldn't it stand to reason if the Sch dog was the way you portrayed it we would be hearing about incidents daily in that country....C'mon)
Lastly, we are certainly all entitled to our opinions, but these opinions should be supported by credible information to be helpful...You say there are plenty of ASL working, but give no examples of areas so that people can judge whether this is what they have seen also or not. I'm not the one generalizing, I give specific areas that the AGS German Shepherd used to be found abundantly, and that we seldom see them anymore. My statements are based on communication with people in THESE fields that often lament the fact that you can rarely find AGS anymore that cut it in real work. Again, I'm not bashing, just stating what is the general landscape of today based on the word of practitioners of which I am one. 
Take care.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

ninemaplefarm said:


> I have seen plenty of WL dogs exhibit poor temperament. On another forum, someone posted a video of dogs in Germany at a high end ScH trial and a lot of those dogs were pathetic. I have also seen dispositions that are way to sharp from WL dogs.
> 
> As someone mentioned on another thread, a lot of these top WL dogs are kennel dogs in Germany and not required to be social animals.
> 
> ...


No one has said there are bad representations of WL dogs. They are everywhere. However...as A WHOLE (which is what people seem to forget) is that WL dogs....AS A WHOLE...represent the best what the breed is supposed to be. Having the nerve base to do protection should not be the EXCEPTION but the RULE. It should be an EXCEPTION to have a dog that can't do it.

And I had to tell you this--a TON of arabians don't do anything but halter classes! Your post is trying to prove something--but all it proves is that every type of animal has a group of people concerned with one thing--looks. The MAJORITY of top halter-class arabians are NOT the ones running endurance events, trust me.



ninemaplefarm said:


> Cliffson, it wasn't from me. It was another thread, I think on the GSD Pedigree site, where people who compete with their working dogs in Germany said the top working line dogs were always kept in kennels in Germany. That's how they do it there. Their point was the dogs could be rather sharp in company.
> 
> Plus, I have been around a couple WL dogs and they are not for the average owner. But, I don't want to put them all in one basket. On other threads, some WL owners say things like nobody can handle their dogs except them or they will get attacked.
> 
> ...


Most big kennels keep their dogs in kennels in all lines so I'm not even sure where you are going with that--WL, ASL, or WGSL. 

And your ignorance is just oozing through this post. Really? Ripping someone's arm off? Yes, many dogs in ALL lines are too much for families. I'd put a big bad sharp WL dog in a family with kids than a neurotic fear aggressive one! A first time dog owner shouldn't own the driviest, strongest dog in the litter. They should own the dog the breeder identified as having been more laid back and with less drive. 

This isn't about "protecting their owners" (what do you mean about that? Barking at strangers at the door?)...it is about showing appropriate aggression and showing FIGHT when faced with a REAL threat.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

ninemaplefarm said:


> I think there should be a focus on *producing GSD that are to breed standard* and can work- regardless of bloodline. That's my last post on it.


And the whole point of this thread...ASL are NOT being bred to the standard! Name a dozen ASL dogs in this country who have been bred to the SV standard. And name a dozen with an SchH, PSA, FR, etc title.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ninemaplefarm: talk to ten different people and you will get ten different answers regarding, keeping a working dog in a kennel, over in Germany. 

Our top dogs, and they went to the BSP, were qualified for the WUSV (etc.) always lived in the family and those were some of the hardest dogs out there, you could find.

Yes, there are people who believe that the only successful shepherd is a kenneled shepherd. That believe is out there, it's true. But you've got as many on the other side that keep their dogs within the family and they are just as succesful


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

TankGrrl66 said:


> Continue reading where you cut my quote off.
> 
> Sure they have titles, but I have seen more than a few "champion" shows that have the "best of the best" and the handler is able to drive the dogs away. Maybe one or two show decent bitework. They don't hit hard, they let go, no full bites, the stick scares them...I mean really? Supposed SchH 3 dogs!!!!!! I have seen pit bulls do better shutzhund than that.


Yes, that definitely happens but your post was basically "Show me a WGSL dog that has an earned SchH title."

I can think of a ton...even on this board! 

I wouldn't quite but ASL and WGSL on the same plane. WGSL have their issues, but there are quite a few out there that have very well deserved protection title.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> *Dogs bred for ScH type work are usually alpha type dogs with tons of confidence. These dogs are not for the faint of heart as a dog confident enough to try to rip someone's arm off in protection is, generally, not the average family pet-(meaning in the wrong hands the dog could get aggressive).*


Todays Schutzhund is not trained to rip somebodies arm off. Todays Schutzhund is mainly trained to go for the sleeve and not for the helper. It's about points and precise behaviour to the point. 

Those dogs, you are talking about, are not wanted anymore. They have no place in todays society. 

I have three dogs. Two out of one of the most succesful austrian Kennels. He went to the WUSV five times with his sires. Both my dogs are sired by him. My other male comes out of powerful working lines as well. 

All three dogs could be placed into a normal, active pet/companion home and wouldn't have any issue to adapt. 
Do they need obedience training? Every dog should have it, that is without question. 

They are confident, driven, have rock solid nerves and a balanced temperament. 

There are certainly extreme type of dogs that you don't want to have in your family but a solid Shepherd (and I don't know how many times I've been preaching that recently) has got to have the ability to adapt and live in a pet home just as much as he can live in a working home. 

Where do you think all those dogs in Germany go? Do you think with all those breeders, those pups end up in working home? I'd say 20%end up in working homes. Another 20% end up overseas, and the rest goes into pet homes. 

There are so many dogs produced in Germany that not all can be placed in working homes. It's impossible. And the Schutzhund trend is going backwards. The community working in Schutzhund is getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. A lot of clubs are actually dying, having three or only four active members. 

Why? Because of their own ignorance and attitude!


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Ok, I have to post again..hahaha!!

Yes, by rip their arm off I meant sleeve work! 

What about this dog sired by a TOP ASL Specialty dog (so I guess the ASL didn't ruin that German blood too much): Nocturne's navigator-
Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

OK, you found 1/2 of a dog!! 1/5 down, 11.5 to go to even find a dozen 

And I'm saying it only counts as 1/2 since he's WGSL on the entire bottom half.

No one is saying that it CAN'T happen...people are saying it is the absolutely rare exception rather than the rule.

Surely you can't argue that if that you only managed to give one example.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

*sigh* Ok, I wave the flag.....

But, there are lots of people on this forum who have ASL dogs and I don't want them to feel like their dogs suck. That's mean to make people feel that way as these dogs have people attached to them. Just because they might not have a ScH title doesn't mean they are not great companions or family protectors and worthy of being called german shepherds. 

I might also add- just because a dog doesn't have a ScH title doesn't mean that they can't do it. I know that there are not many ScH clubs around. In fact, when I called 2 clubs in my region (neither of which were really that close to me)- both were currently closed to new members. So, I will do AKC obedience, tracking, and agility instead....

Just my opinion- but I respect the opinions of others even if I don't agree.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Trying to improve a breed so it embodies the standard that the founder built it on should not consider pet owners' feelings in the mix, I'm sorry.

One thing I wish would happen is that all ASL breeders just admit "yeah, we decided that one part of the standard didn't mean crap and we aren't breeding to it anymore--whatchu gonna do 'bout it?"

Rather than sit there and try to argue "our dogs have the same protection abilities as those other lines, but they are BETTER 'cause they aren't gonna kill your child in it's sleep!" (ok, minor exaggeration, but that's more or less the gist of a lot of the marketing I've seen).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Also ninemaplefarm, nobody said that anyone's dog on the forum sucks. Most people got their dog as a pet, and they got GREAT pets. These discussions are about _breeding_ GSDs, and the role and responsibility of _breeders_ to maintain the integrity of a working breed. 

Each dog should be loved and cherished and valued equally, regardless of their background and strenghts and weaknesses. 

Breeders will tell you that even sticking with working lines coming from long-lines of titled/working ancestry, it is still a hard to breed a dog that embodies the work ethic with the uncorruptable temperament that the standard calls for, and that is from dogs that have proven themselves in the field and in work, from breeders that have loads of experience breeding for this, so a bit naive to take dogs knows for poor temperament (though not all), from breeders who have never trained a dog past a basic obedience title, have never tested their dogs outside the showring, and take their assertion that the working ability of their dogs has not been compromised.

Also, edited to add: a balanced, well bred working dog can still make a great pet - my working line has gotten great compliments from top Schutzhund people and k9 handlers and trainers, yet he is sweet, and friendly, good with the cats, and sleeps on the bed every night. Very balanced, solid boy.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

First off - lets sit down and look at AKC's registration numbers for the GSD!!!

After searching the site, it seems that only rankings are now listed - about 2 years ago, litters and individual numbers were available....

GSDs in maybe 2009 - 11,000 litters with 40,000 individuals sent in. So with all the people who don't send in their apps, probably 65,000 GSDs born that year with AKC registration. 

Does anyone really believe that 11,000 litters are bred by responsible, reputable breeders of ANY SORT???? I think that fully half to two thirds of these litters are simply sunday paper litters, BYB litters - people that are not on forums, not showing, training, or active in ANYTHING!!! This is where most of the dumpees and rescues orignate (probably 85-95% of them !!!) Dog's whose names are Shadow magic or Bills Nelly Belle type of breeders...not ASL fanicers, or WGSL or Czech or DDR....those litters are probably in the minority. I can pick up the sunday paper and see 10 ads for GSD pups for $350 - $600 any week - some with "no papers - purebreed - parents wise and wonderful" That one runs for many many weeks here in Pittsburgh...


So - ruling out these thousands and thousands of generically bred dogs - we are left with probably 1/3 or a bit more of those 40,000 ish dogs......say 12,000 to 14,000 a year.....NO WAY do all of them show, train AKC performance, Schutzhund, Herd....most of them go to pet homes....in every category.....I would venture to say the majority ARE ASL, then WGSL then WL in the minority.

But look at LE - the majority of them ARE WL - the minority WGSL....(excluding malis of course!)....for every 1000 LE dogs out there - maybe 1 donated dog is doing LE in some some sleepy town, probably more BYB dogs doing it than ASLs....personally have NEVER heard or seen a ASL doing police work - drugs or patrol - but I am sure somewhere along the line there is one or 2.....

The WL dog, when bred carefully, ie, without pandering to the big name winners, or the market for "black sables" (which are not really black sable!! just nice dark rich sables!), is still the most versatile of all types. Other than the AKC Breed ring, the WL will work rings around the WGSL, the ASL and the BYB dog every day of the week....

Titles are needed by WGSL to breed under the SV standards. All Schutzhund titles are NOT CREATED EQUAL!! Judge 1 vs Judge 2 - just this spring saw 2 trials.....the dogs that J1 gave 95+ points to, J2 would have give 80+ to....and some dogs under J1 would have failed under J2.....J1 was a "Santa", and J2 did a local trial like a National....I have never trialed under J1 - LOL wish I had tho!!! All those Vs would have looked nice in my scorebook....my 92s and 95s and 96s would have had to be 99s or 100s!!! I have trialed under J2....got Vs in several spots and 2 HITs....J2 failed 3 WGSL dogs at one trial a few years back - big name kennel dogs... take your ASL cross to him, and you would end up leaving in tears as he was brutally honest....

As you get into this, and watch and learn, you find out that the scores are NOT indicative of the caliber of the dog.... in many many trials, it is just as much the venue, the judge, the training.....good or bad - and to have a website tout a dog as being the only "SchH2 [AKC] Champion to get his KKL1" goes more to PROVE that the ASL dog is NOT capable of even the watered down version of schutzhund that most WGSLs are asked to perform.

And I GET the argument of halter vs performance horse - I use it all the time!!!! The Halter horse will not cut cows, he will fall on his face! The cutter won't go GC in Halter - but you can throw a saddle on either and walk trot lope around a ring in a "pleasure" class!!! Thus both the WGSL and WL do get Schutzhund titles!

Lee


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I breed and show horses that are Halter and Performance Champions, I expect no less of my dogs, you can have it all.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Here is one of the contradictions for the American bred dogs that I don't think is fair. Many of us have been to Specialty show and all breed shows and have seen the dogs represented there, in terms of mental soundness. Often, they are lacking the strength of character that embodies this breed. Yet, we still hear a passionate plea that there are many American breeders breeding dogs that can still perform(And I honesty believe they are out there). 
When I see some of the ASL pedigrees and think about some of the winning dogs in the showring that are getting bred to because of the CH in front of their name, and never see their progeny in a working venue, it reinforces the perception. 
Yet, when a person posts a pedigree of American lines that is not filled with CH labeled dogs, then the dog or breeder is referred to as a pet dog or pet breeder. Some of these dogs and breeders are certainly the American breeders that ARE producing very sound dogs....yet they are shunned like the plague. 
Just some food for thought.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Cliffson, said it before and will say it again. As long as it is about the Champion breeding, there will be no change.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

GSDElsa said:


> One thing I wish would happen is that all ASL breeders just admit "yeah, we decided that one part of the standard didn't mean crap and we aren't breeding to it anymore--whatchu gonna do 'bout it?"


Yes!!!!

I had an ASL breeder tell me the other day that he did not need to "prove" his dogs. He just knew they would work.
This from someone who apparently does not know the difference between European showlines and European working lines. And this person has been in the breed at least as long as I, maybe longer.
I go to AKC shows, I hang out and watch the ASL dogs. Some are nice.

I think, unless you go to at least 3 different schutzhund clubs, and spend 3 full training days at each.... that maybe a person ought to quit talking about working lines.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> One thing I wish would happen is that all ASL breeders just admit "yeah, we decided that one part of the standard didn't mean crap and we aren't breeding to it anymore--whatchu gonna do 'bout it?"


I don't really think that's fair when it does not encompass ALL ASL breeders. I wanted to breed for sound show lines that could work...could perform SD work for me, could be a narcotics dog, etc etc etc.

I do get mad when people blatantly disregard the standard, and believe that a sickle hocked dog that gaits off the hock is a good mover. If I bring this up, *I* am called ignorant! If you tell somebody that a dog that gaits off the hock is not a dog that will hold up for years herding huge flocks of sheep, they get insulted, and, again, I get called ignorant or biased.

When I am working my bitch, I can see the deficiencies she's got, mentally and physically. Same thing goes for my male.

I do not have the physical ability to WORK work my dogs like others on this board do, but I do try and put them in situations where I can evaluate to the best of my ability.

My bitch is beautifully balanced, front and rear. From a show standpoint, she needs a longer upper arm for greater reach. From a functional standpoint, there's nothing wrong with her front. She has excellent reach. 

Her rear upper and lower thigh match, which is good, but both are just slightly too long. Couple this with the fact that she's a little loose in ligamentation (she won't knit you a sweater going away, but you can see a slight wobble when she walks), it makes turning a little more difficult for her. She tends to take diggers a lil more often than other dogs because of that extra rear. The good news is, thanks to her fortitude and an excellent attitude, doing a face plant does not deter her at all, and she immediately corrects and gets back to her job.

Can she gallop? YES! She does not just trot everywhere. I do not believe a dog is built correctly if they can only gait everywhere. It is PROPER for a dog with correct angles to open their gait more, if necessary, BUT, if they're falling way behind the pack (a litter of puppies for this example), they SHOULD very well gallop to catch up! It doesn't mean the dog's structure is faulty.

If a sheep gets loose from the herd, Mirada will turn, GALLOP, and bring it back and resume trotting. A dog that can ONLY trot is useless on sheep...I can see that, and I'm new to herding.

I do think a lot of the problems involving the justifications for excessive rear or soft, spongy pasterns (aside from the lack of people working their dogs) is that all of these justifications are based on theories. Because I work my dogs, I can see where the theories fail, but you can't really PROVE it unless you get a LARGE sampling of these dogs working on huge herds of sheep every day for their lifetimes...and who is going to do that?

The true working (human) Shepherds are not going to take on those dogs....and the owners of the extreme dogs that "really could work if they wanted to" will not get involved, because "people are only looking to make fun".


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I do not like it when I go to shows and I see ADULTS that put their ears down and do the submissive tail wag when the judge approaches. The dog should stand its ground with the understanding that the judge is not a threat, and remain aloof.

I've had judges try to get my little girl (who stood solid as a rock and would look them in the eye for a moment) try to get her to wag her tail at them, or acknowledge them further. They were upset that she would not! Mirada glanced at them only because they were approaching, not because they mattered.

I do get a little upset when puppies do the same. I can understand puppies being a little unsure, but hiding behind the handler, screaming during a simple tooth check, etc etc....these are not acceptable things.

If my 6 month old bitch (going back in time here a bit) can freestack, be examined without me holding on to her, can do a down and back on a LOOSE lead, and can go around all without having a freak fest, there should be no reason others can't either.

I've gotten excellent compliments on both her temperament and her training, and it saddens me, because my bitch shouldn't need to be complimented on either. It should be normal.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

absolutely right! Should not have said all...amd not sure how it snuck in there!.....just "in general."


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Should not have said all...amd not sure how it snuck in there!


It happens...we're humans, we make mistakes 

But by and large, I do agree with you. I enjoy many American line dogs, but I DO recognize their deficiencies (and those in other lines as well). Even though it may not seem like it some times, I like a good* German Shepherd Dog*.

When I am at a dog show and I watch a dog go around, my first thought (in regards to structure) is ALWAYS, unequivocally, without question, "Can this dog do the jobs he's bred for?"

I saw one a couple weeks ago that I very much believed could. I wish I could have met him, because structurally, he knocked me off my feet...and his breed type was gorgeous (very nice, correct head...not Collie/Belgian headed).


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Just to add some comments, went to Pawluzza today, a huge shwo that you can bring dogs to and try agility, lure coursing, dock diving, agility, and just have fun. There were lots of vendors and rescue places... well ran into a vendor who shows in WG type shows and had his male with him, he greeted me and was so happy to see another well bred German dog. He couldn't believe that Ty was ASL, or Can SL. AS has often been argued by people, that big head, rich color and confidence are not indicators of WGSL.. It is an example of a breeder who has been breeding for 40 yrs and has been adding in imports when needed. There are good breeders, and these dogs do well in shows, some of them, just have to pick the judges. Find the judges that don't want the extreme or"pretty" but actual functional. So I promise there ARE good dogs from all lines, they are out there


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If it is a show dog and it is gaiting around the ring faultlessly, it is doing what it was bred for these days.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gagsd said:


> Yes!!!!
> 
> I had an ASL breeder tell me the other day that he did not need to "prove" his dogs. He just knew they would work.
> This from someone who apparently does not know the difference between European showlines and European working lines. And this person has been in the breed at least as long as I, maybe longer.
> ...


One club with diversity would actually be enough already. 

Have some boxers, mals, pit bulls, dutchies, west german lines, rotties, czech lines, DDR lines and showlines and you can see very much the difference between each and every breed, dog and line.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

ninemaplefarm said:


> So, a WL pedigree is not the "be all end all" as there are plenty of crappy WL dogs- don't believe me check youtube for some of these dogs competing in high end trials. You will see tail tuck, scared, running from helper, cowering, etc..


Haven't read further into the thread yet to see if someone else pointed this out, but.. those dogs of which you speak were most likely German Show lines, not working lines. And that wasn't a "high end" SchH trial but the performance test at a Sieger show.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

One problem with conformation dogs is that many may spend their life in a kennel run and come out only for some rudimentry show gaiting training and then off to the shows - no matter the dog's genetics that dog is not going to be a great actor in the ring! Not a whole lot of socialization going on there, unfortunately!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Samba said:


> If it is a show dog and it is gaiting around the ring faultlessly, it is doing what it was bred for these days.


That is the problem, that is not what the GSD was bred to be. That is not what Stephanitz envisioned, and he'd probably turn in his grave if he knew.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, he might. I am not sure that matters to everyone. Read a book from early years of the GSD in the USA. Even then the stage was set for a departure from the German type.

Guess I am not so shocked by this. The American show dog scene is far from anything that would continue a dog in the German vein. The Germans have done the same in many ways.

The vast majority of dog breeds that I am familiar with have different lines. Strange perhaps, but very common. There was a split even in Stephanitz's day between working and fancy dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

codmaster said:


> One problem with conformation dogs is that many may spend their life in a kennel run and come out only for some rudimentry show gaiting training and then off to the shows - no matter the dog's genetics that dog is not going to be a great actor in the ring! Not a whole lot of socialization going on there, unfortunately!



Well - having seen alot of high profile SL dogs, and seen them raised in the home, and by experienced people - and inexperienced people - in my mind, OVERALL - it does not matter....I have seen a few "families" that actually enjoy the bite work, and a few dogs line bred on one matriarch that I knew at 13-15 years old, who even at 15 would eagerly bite a gently proferred sleeve...but most do not seem to have the heart to do the work...the fight drive is not there, prey many times, yes...but no strong fight drive....or resilience 

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Samba said:


> Yes, he might. I am not sure that matters to everyone. Read a book from early years of the GSD in the USA. Even then the stage was set for a departure from the German type.
> 
> Guess I am not so shocked by this. The American show dog scene is far from anything that would continue a dog in the German vein. The Germans have done the same in many ways.
> 
> The vast majority of dog breeds that I am familiar with have different lines. Strange perhaps, but very common. There was a split even in Stephanitz's day between working and fancy dogs.


Money and Greed. Money and Greed... that's what runs the show line szene and as long as there are people willing to pay hundred of thousands of euros for showline dogs, it'll always be that way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Money and Greed. Money and Greed... that's what runs the show line szene and as long as there are people willing to pay hundred of thousands of euros for showline dogs, it'll always be that way.


I truly disagree that it is money and greed. I think that in every line, people think that their dogs are superb. Kind of like working line dogs are not willing to consider their dog's conformation is anything but the ideal, the showline people are not willing to consider their dogs have issues in structure, temperament, or health. 

In every line, including the working lines, you have people who are striving to be the best, to be the top dog. That is not necessarily money and greed, it is pride or competitiveness. 

Breeding for one aspect of the dog, including working ability, will become detrimental to the breed. People competing to be the best, tend to go to extremes, and whether that it ski-slope top lines, or super intense high drive -- neither of these encompasses the original purpose of this dog. 

But it is not money and greed, it is perhaps desire to have that number 1 dog. If the judges are putting up ski-slopes, they will breed them. If judges overlook nerviness, they will breed these dogs if they have the physical characteristics they are looking for. 

In the US anyway, it is so expensive to campaign and show a GSD, even to the champion level, to go beyond that, they would be better off putting that in the stock market if they were greedy.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Selzer...I disagree with your take. Mrs. K was talking about European showline dogs as evidenced by her reference to showline and to Euros being spent. If you know anything about the current German Showlines, the most dominant factor in the game today is money. Period. Why??? Because THEIR showline dogs have an international market to sell their product that is willing to pay incredible sums of money(India, China, Pakistan, Japan, Brazil, Argentina,South Africa, Middle East), this has influenced the breeding, this has influenced the judging, and this has influenced the overall direction of this line of dog and not for the good. I totally agree with Mrs. K, because all of you are running to brag about having those top VA dogs in your pedigree, that was placed there through corruption and money. The other lines dont have the same type of money attached to them so they breed for other purposes.
As to your comment about breeding for working being detrimental, another comment that sounds good to the uninformed, but highly inaccurate. A German Shepherd that is truly bred for working(and I didn't say sport), is going to have to have good health, good strucure, and good temperament. It will be a balanced dog, it will not have the extremes of the winning conformation dogs, or the extremes of top sport dogs, or only one color predominatly. These extremes are the results of "likes" breeders....people who LIKE a certain aspect to the detriment of allowing other issues go out of sinc. These type of breeders are killing the breed, imo, and have created and maintained the "lines".
When we get back to dogs like Marko vom Cellerland, a top conformation dog, who had one parent that was HGH(herding), who was renowned for producing working stock to include herding, also obedience stock, conformation stock, and all colors of the spectrum(one of the traits that knocked him out of the four pillars in Germany with Canto, Quanto, and Mutz, the fact that he produced blacks and bi-colors and that didn't fit the show world requisite), then you will see the breed improve in all phases and you will also see our beloved breed become dominant again in working vocations instead of couches. But this will never happen as long as the breeders themselves don't understand what it takes to restore the breed to this plateau. (Or in many cases can't get past their addictions to their "likes" continuing the extremes or imbalances. JMO


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One last thing, knowledgable and responsible breeders, DONT breed for winning, or competitiveness, or for winning in the show ring.....knowledgable breeders don't chase the fads that are required to be successful in those endeavors. Knowledgable breeders have integrity to the standard of the breed as written and strive to produce it without omiting parts that they may or may not like.


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