# So do I let people pet my dog or not?



## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

I want my puppy to be a family protector, as I live in a bad neighborhood, gentrifying, but still bad. So I read some articles that if you want your pup to be a guard dog...socialize socialize socialize in the beginning. Now Im reading that too much petting can lead to your pup trusting every person that comes by. Im confused. Again, new owner here needing some advice from you veterans out there. I usually let any woman pet my dog, I let good people around the neighborhood pet my dog. The criminal types usually walk around my pup (funny at 13 weeks seeing a 6'5" 250lb man walk around a little pup, I'm guessing they had some experience with K9's in the past :grin2


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

What are your expectations for your dog as a family protector? A dog that will bark at strange noises and look intimidating(Watch Dog) or a dog that will actually engage and bite someone who is attacking your family / property (guard dog)?

If you want your pup to be a family protector in the second way - then you really should have the pup evaluated by a good k9 trainer. Without specific training for that type of work the vast majority of dogs will not protect you. Lots of shepherds from pet lines and show lines don't have the nerves it takes for that kind of work. But they still make fantastic watch dogs and look awfully intimidating. 

I've heard both schools of thought. I'm not convinced either way. I let lots of people pet my pup until he was about 6 months old. Around that time he started getting a bit of the shepherd aloofness and clearly was not enjoying the petting so much anymore. Now he is rarely petted by strangers except for when I give him the "say hello" command. In which he tolerates affection from others. 

When he was 4 months old, I ordered a pizza. I was out side giving the pup a potty break when it was delivered. The driver was loving on the pup, then he asked me what kind of dog is he? I told him a shepherd and he practically jumped out of his skin. Leaving a very confused pup LOL


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the school of thought behind petting your pup is this: do you want a dog that goes nuts at everyone who walks by? or do you want a more discerning dog that alerts when someone "off" is lurking around your house?
For me, the second one is worthless. Who wants a dog that barks every time they see someone. If you're living in the city, that could be dozens of people every morning. How long before the entire neighborhood (and you) tune him out? How long before the neighbors start complaining to animal control over your dog that barks all day and all night?
To do the first, the dog needs to KNOW people. He needs to know that most people are good harmless people. He needs to know that just because someone is wearing a hat, sunglasses, walks with a cane, has long hair, etc they aren't a danger. He needs to know what "normal" people do to recognize when someone is "off"

Singe is a registered Therapy Dog. He's also an excellent guard dog and alerts anytime a stranger enters the property. Or the neighbor's property though that only gets 1-2 alert "hey there's someone new" barks and then he stops.

If you are concerned about shady people in your neighborhood making friends with the dog, go outside your area.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> What are your expectations for your dog as a family protector? A dog that will bark at strange noises and look intimidating(Watch Dog) or a dog that will actually engage and bite someone who is attacking your family / property (guard dog)?
> 
> If you want your pup to be a family protector in the second way - then you really should have the pup evaluated by a good k9 trainer. Without specific training for that type of work the vast majority of dogs will not protect you. Lots of shepherds from pet lines and show lines don't have the nerves it takes for that kind of work. But they still make fantastic watch dogs and look awfully intimidating.
> 
> ...


My expectations are that if anyone enters the house un-invited I want the dog to bark at them and if needed attack. Theres also gunshots and gangs that roam at night, I want the dog to sense something is off maybe down that particular block. I don't want my family to have to fear going outside. A companion/protector. This may be too much to ask for, I don't know. But I ordered the Koehler book on guard dogs on the advice of a military guy in the area. He said they use a different handbook for their dogs and the Koehler book is outdated but still has some excellent drills and tips for building confidence in a dog.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

I socialize my dog with lots of people who ever want to pet him can. Some people I just dont allow drunks or people that act like they are on drugs or whatever thats more of an in the moment call. My dog still will give a few barks if someone is walking through the courtyard or a branch scrapes the window and when its just us 2 home a lone if my brother starts opening the door he also does the bark but melts into a cuddle bug once he sees him. Most dogs and definitely most shepherds will do this regardless of their socialization, because they are on their territory. If you really want a dog that will guard you or you family you could start protection training. Even with all the socialization my dog will light up on anyone if i point to them and give the command, whether that be my brother my girl friend or a decoy. The training is really good for them and you in the case you are in a situation that you want your dog to protect you just by barking and pulling on a leash. An 80lb shepherd doing that will ward off almost anyone. Most protection dogs never get to preform a real life bite. Doing bite work if your dog has the right drive and nerve can give the dog lots of confidence and is good mental stimulation. 
Bottom line: If you want a real protection dog do protection training , if you want an alert dog you probably already have one. Socialization wont make too much of a difference

Edit
I just saw you mentioned gun shots. Thats has been a part of training and introducing it to them as a positive while in drive makes them un-phased by them.
Also i live in a busy neighborhood of Chicago so a dog that barks at every person on the street is not what i want and being in NYC probably not what you want either.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I let people pet my pup out and about as I saw he was comfortable and wanting attention. I never forced it on him. He also was not over excited and out of control in doing so. As he grew he would become more reserved with people we saw out and about he would need to check them out and smell them before he allowed a pet and enjoyed the attention. Now out and about he is more reserved with people out and about and I will let someone pet him if I feel he is comfortable and outwardly wanting to say hi. i also learned I do not let everyone pet my dog as I had people try to wrestle my dog , unknown kids attach themselves to the hip of my dog - he made me proud in each scenario as I believed the socializing did pay off in these scenarios. 
My dog is incredibly overly friendly to all that come in the house and it does not make him less protective at all. 
Also you do not want to force an interaction with your pup if he is outwardly uncomfortable. 
It is important to socialize them in many different scenarios and in doing so is not going to make them less protective of you and your family as this is the breeds nature and by you socializing him is helping him take into account what non threatening people look like.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

girardid said:


> I socialize my dog with lots of people who ever want to pet him can. Some people I just dont allow drunks or people that act like they are on drugs or whatever thats more of an in the moment call. My dog still will give a few barks if someone is walking through the courtyard or a branch scrapes the window and when its just us 2 home a lone if my brother starts opening the door he also does the bark but melts into a cuddle bug once he sees him. Most dogs and definitely most shepherds will do this regardless of their socialization, because they are on their territory. If you really want a dog that will guard you or you family you could start protection training. Even with all the socialization my dog will light up on anyone if i point to them and give the command, whether that be my brother my girl friend or a decoy. The training is really good for them and you in the case you are in a situation that you want your dog to protect you just by barking and pulling on a leash. An 80lb shepherd doing that will ward off almost anyone. Most protection dogs never get to preform a real life bite. Doing bite work if your dog has the right drive and nerve can give the dog lots of confidence and is good mental stimulation.
> Bottom line: If you want a real protection dog do protection training , if you want an alert dog you probably already have one. Socialization wont make too much of a difference
> 
> Edit
> ...



Hey, just some more follow up questions if you don't mind. Wouldn't exposing the dog to gun shots make them sort of immune to it? Like un-fazed? Don't you want your dog to be sort of on-edge if it hears gun shots? And I have a female dog, she is predicted to get up to maybe 65lbs if I'm lucky. I didn't go with the male because the dad was enormous, like over 100lbs. I really didn't want to deal with such a huge dog, the boy pups were HUGE, so I picked the girl. And can you recommend a protection dog training book, I ordered the Koehler book, not planning on implementing everything written in it for obvious reasons.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> My expectations are that if anyone enters the house un-invited I want the dog to bark at them and if needed attack. Theres also gunshots and gangs that roam at night, I want the dog to sense something is off maybe down that particular block. I don't want my family to have to fear going outside. A companion/protector. This may be too much to ask for, I don't know. But I ordered the Koehler book on guard dogs on the advice of a military guy in the area. He said they use a different handbook for their dogs and the Koehler book is outdated but still has some excellent drills and tips for building confidence in a dog.


That is a lot to ask of dog. Is your pup working line? What's his pedigree like? Do not count on your dog to attack an intruder unless he comes from lines specifically bred to be civil and you have actually done protection training with him. 

It takes A LOT of blood, sweat, and tears to breed and train a proper guard dog. Most dogs - most GSDS are just not up to the challenge. Genetics are key.

I'd suggest going and watching some working dogs in action and seeing if that is even something you would want to pursue. I do some bite work with my guy and it is fun. 

How do you expect the dog to understand something is "off" down the block? Dogs don't know a mugger from a mailman at that type of distance. 

Most criminals who see a GSD will look for easier targets. Those crazy enough to continue already have a plan to dispatch the dog.

It does seem like you are expecting too much of your pup here. Too much of any dog really.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Hey, just some more follow up questions if you don't mind. Wouldn't exposing the dog to gun shots make them sort of immune to it? Like un-fazed? Don't you want your dog to be sort of on-edge if it hears gun shots? And I have a female dog, she is predicted to get up to maybe 65lbs if I'm lucky. I didn't go with the male because the dad was enormous, like over 100lbs. I really didn't want to deal with such a huge dog, the boy pups were HUGE, so I picked the girl. And can you recommend a protection dog training book, I ordered the Koehler book, not planning on implementing everything written in it for obvious reasons.


Not who you asked but have some answers. 

No. You do NOT want your dog on edge. You want her calm, cool, and collected. 

A dog that is fearful of gun shots is not the type of dog you want to train for protection in the first place. Weak nerves. They fire starting pistols as courage tests in some bite sports to test the dogs nerves. 

Protection training from a book is a bad bad bad idea. You need people who can read your dog, have the magic voodoo do to bring out drives in your dog. Guys experienced in taking bites. This is not a DIY thing. 

Try checking out IPO or Ring Sport clubs in your area. Or see if you can find someone who trains personal protection dogs.


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## GSDCrazy1787 (Sep 26, 2015)

I am a first time GSD owner. When I heard how important it was to socialize a dog I thought well I should let everyone say hi to him! I didn't research what that meant and made a rookie mistake. Now that I look back on things I hate that I made that decision! I now have a dog that wants to say hi to everybody. That gets overly excited when he meets strangers and just wants to be loved on. Most people may not think that is a problem but I think it is because not everybody wants to say hi. Dante gets very excited when he sees strangers and some strangers can't read him and actually get scared cause they don't know if he is happy or not.

My mindset has now changed. I think of a well socialized dog as a dog who behaves themselves in public -- who tolerates people and lets people say hi but doesn't find it necessary to want to be petted or be aggressive to another person. So I would think twice before letting him say hi to everybody. I understand socializing is important because you don't want your dog to be aggressive to people but you also don't want her to be overly excited about people either. So now I am working with Dante to teach him that just because there is a person you see doesn't mean that you are going to get petted or that you should even acknowledge that person's presence. 

Oh and I take the same view on dogs. I made the same mistake in letting him say hi to every dog he sees as a puppy and now I'm paying the price. Now I choose the dogs he says hi to and the ones he doesn't. He doesn't need to say hi to every dog he sees or you will have a very rambunctious I want to go play dog on your hands because that's exactly what I have now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NYCgsd said:


> My expectations are that if anyone enters the house un-invited I want the dog to bark at them and if needed attack. Theres also gunshots and gangs that roam at night, I want the dog to sense something is off maybe down that particular block. I don't want my family to have to fear going outside. A companion/protector. This may be too much to ask for, I don't know. But I ordered the Koehler book on guard dogs on the advice of a military guy in the area. He said they use a different handbook for their dogs and the Koehler book is outdated but still has some excellent drills and tips for building confidence in a dog.


If this is what you want then you really should look into formal training. First, that trainer will evaluate if the dog will indeed bite for real AND stay on the bite while the intruder is potentially inflicting pain.

Second, you need to put the right type of obedience on the dog so you can call the dog off if need be.

Dogs will have natural instincts depending on the breeding. For instance, my boy is super social. Never met a stranger. But as he's matured he takes exception to anyone that is to close to me. He's alerted on people that I didn't think were a threat but were acting odd. It's my job to teach him when to turn it on and when to turn it off. That's where you need the trainer and the obedience.

Another thing I've noticed, while staying in some questionable hotels, is that people in bad areas have a fear of these dogs. I can't count the people that have backed up saying "that's a big dog" "those dogs! They have a history!". Just the dog itself is a deterrent.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I second everything voodoolamb just said. Reading books may help you gain a general understanding of training methods, but if you've never implemented them before, it probably won't help you much. Find a good trainer that can help you achieve your goals. An IPO/schutzhund/PSA club is an excellent place to start.

As for socialization, yes you want to socialize your dog. That does not mean that everyone walking down the street meets her and touches her. It means you expose her to as many different environments, kinds of people, noises, ground surfaces (grass, gravel, shiny floors, etc) as you can. Does she like when strangers pet her? If she does, letting friendly strangers pet her won't hurt. If she doesn't, don't allow it. Just ask her to observe. Just try to make everything a positive experience for her so she gains confidence. That will be a good start.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> exposing the dog to gun shots make them sort of immune to it? Like un-fazed? Don't you want your dog to be sort of on-edge if it hears gun shots?


Yes it does make them unfazed and thats what I want! I am training my dog for PSA there is a point in the competition where they have to be in a down while gunshots are fired and you are walking away from them. Other parts the dog has to attack a decoy who is firing blanks as the dog charges. If your dog is startled and on edge during gunfire they may break a command you put them in or they may avoid the decoy and not engage while he fires. The key is building up the dogs confidence. Hearing the loud gun shot will naturally make the dog alert the difference is if they've been exposed to it before they wont get nervous or shut down but it they have they can stay calm and confident yet alert.

My boy is only about 75 80lb but I haven't weighed him in a while. You just really want to keep them lean to be healthy

Honestly I cant recommend a protection book, I dont know of any. But this site is a gold mine of info http://leerburg.com/ For now you should just work on developing her prey drive and and socialize the crap out of her to new environments surfaces sounds places literally anything you can think of and make sure it is a positive experience. She may not want to walk across a play ground bridge because it is rickety but she might trot right across it for a piece of cheese and lots of praise at the end. This kind of socializing build confident and mentally tough dogs. Once she is older get a free evaluation from a working dog trainer. when she is a bit older and her drives really start to show you can start working her with the help of a trainer. 

What lines is she out of?
Do you have a pedigree by chance?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

A really confident, well socialized dog will have seen enough neutral or friendly people to be able to notice the sketchy one. My female is very calm, confident, enjoys people but not overly so. She remembers who her friends are and is very happy to see them, but a short schmooze and she is done, sitting at my feet.

She was everywhere as a puppy, agility events in the crowd, group classes as a participant but equally as many hanging out behind the sidelines with my friend who was the instructor. Everyone petted her. She loved it. Very social as a puppy.

She has had fan clubs mostly everywhere we have ever lived, usually women and children. On the very few occasions that she or I felt I was in danger, she transformed into an amazing display of a GSD doing what it does best. Would she engage in a fight? I doubt it. She has no protection training, if anything the opposite. But she has never failed to be a force to be reckoned with if the situation warranted it, and never when it didn't. I think she could have been protection trained she is so stable. But at least in her case, allowing her to socialize with hundreds and hundreds of people didn't impact her protective instincts one bit. If anything made them better because she is not suspicious of any normal human behavior because she has seen/heard it all. She is only suspicious of suspicious people in suspicious places doing suspicious things, and she knows the difference.

I do not sense that my boy is as stable and cofident as her with people. But he is young and more may come with age , with him the thing about petting is making sure he is comfortable. And right now he is in a phase where he really doesn't care for over the head petting so I am not allowing much petting while I work on that because I don't want him learning that people make him feel uncomfortable. My thing with him has always been: I give him permission to go greet, if he eagerly walks up to the person, fine. If he doesn't, I say sorry no pets. 

So for me it is all about is the puppy comfortable, and then being sure that your value to the dog isn't reduced because they like schmoozi g other people so much. My boy is not super social. He isn't dying to meet everyone he sees. I am fine with this. If I send him to greet and he does so politely he bounces back to me in an instant looking for the big reward which is how I like it. He isn' a therapy dog. I don't need him to be a social butterfly. I like to expose him to stuff and even get him to tolerate things he doesn't love in exchange for a payout from me because chances are somebody is going to pet his head without asking one day or the vet will have to do something or so on.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I only let people pet my dogs in specific settings such as at the vets, Petco, and other "dog" functions. I do take them out for observation and exposure, but not socialization. 

Regarding gunfire, a fear of loud noises can have a genetic basis and can be difficult to over come. This is something that I have found in my experience to be uncommon in a working line. 

I disagree with the others that the mere sight of a larger sized dog or a German Shepherd acts as a deterrent in the type of a neighborhood that you describe. A larger dog would have worked more in your favor in that regard, but you know your limits on what suits your needs and abilities. You might put off the youngest of thugs, but the more mature ones are fairly adept at gaging what a dog is really made of and will actively engage you and your dog as a test to see her mettle before considering future action, and the key word there is "future".

One last thing I would like to add is that one bad experience as a puppy with the wrong person can be a major setback for you and your puppy. I would adopt a hands off policy, assuming that your dog is a genetically stable dog that does not need socialization.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NYCgsd said:


> So I read some articles that if you want your pup to be a guard dog...socialize socialize socialize in the beginning. Now Im reading that too much petting can lead to your pup trusting every person that comes by.


Do you want your dog to be a deterrent, or to actually be trained to attack on cue? If it's the first you don't necessarily need any special training, but if it's the latter, then you don't want to just read a book, you want to find a trainer that specializes in personal protection dogs. 

How friendly and social a dog is has a lot to do with genetics. Keefer loves people (and they love him too!). There's nothing I could have done either way to have changed that. He is the most affectionate dog we've ever met, and it's something he never grew out of. He's a gorgeous big fluffy longcoat that is often referred to as "cute" when I'm out with him, but simply due to his breed and size, some people are intimidated by him. 

There are definitely several schools of thought regarding letting people pet your puppy, but for me, if I have a social, confident puppy who wants to meet people and we encounter people who want to meet my puppy, then I let them. Socialization can be either simply exposure to new people/places/things, or it can include interacting with that new stuff. But if you're talking about a very young puppy, I WANT it to be friendly and open to new things. As Jax mentioned, maturity can bring a natural discrimination towards strangers, even with a dog that loved everyone when younger. And even some serious hard core dogs will come off the field and schmooze with spectators, so being social does not preclude being protective when the situation warrants. Socialization should be a positive experience for the puppy or it can do more harm than good, but letting people pet your puppy isn't going to ruin her unless she is fearful and you're forcing unwelcome interaction on her. 



NYCgsd said:


> *My expectations are that if anyone enters the house un-invited I want the dog to bark at them and if needed attack. * Theres also gunshots and gangs that roam at night, I want the dog to sense something is off maybe down that particular block. I don't want my family to have to fear going outside. A companion/protector.


My dogs will bark any time the doorbell rings. I can't imagine anyone attempting to enter the house with two large dogs barking like crazy, but I also don't leave my front door unlocked. Would they actually attack if someone were to enter? I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure Halo would scare the crap out of them! 



NYCgsd said:


> Hey, just some more follow up questions if you don't mind. Wouldn't exposing the dog to gun shots make them sort of immune to it? Like un-fazed? Don't you want your dog to be sort of on-edge if it hears gun shots? And I have a female dog, she is predicted to get up to maybe 65lbs if I'm lucky.


If gunshots are normal in your neighborhood I would definitely not want a dog that alerts every single time. For one thing, you're going to hear them too, so why would that even be necessary? Our female Halo is about 55 pounds. Keefer outweighs her by 20-25 pounds, but she is far more serious and intense than he is. If it came down to it, she's the one an intruder would have to worry about, and would likely be more intimidated by, regardless of her smaller size.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Dainerra said:


> the school of thought behind petting your pup is this: do you want a dog that goes nuts at everyone who walks by? or do you want a more discerning dog that alerts when someone "off" is lurking around your house?
> For me, the second one is worthless. Who wants a dog that barks every time they see someone. If you're living in the city, that could be dozens of people every morning. How long before the entire neighborhood (and you) tune him out? How long before the neighbors start complaining to animal control over your dog that barks all day and all night?
> *To do the first, the dog needs to KNOW people. He needs to know that most people are good harmless people. He needs to know that just because someone is wearing a hat, sunglasses, walks with a cane, has long hair, etc they aren't a danger. He needs to know what "normal" people do to recognize when someone is "off".*


:thumbup: This!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The best watch dogs, who alert, are the ones that are suspicious as a result of lack of socialization. The best guard dogs are not afraid of people because of intense socialization with them. Deja is well socialized and has a healthy sense of what is normal and what isn't. She also takes her cues from me. I have no doubt that she will protect us all when needed without specific training. If you live in an area with gangs and shootings, no pack of GSDs can keep you safe from a bullet.
When I lived in Europe I knew abut a Belgian Sheepdog breeder who raised watch dogs and protection dogs as pups. The ones destined to become watch dogs were raised in a barn, kept away from most people and only saw their own people. The ones destined for protection were socialized and raised in their home.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> The best watch dogs, who alert, are the ones that are suspicious as a result of lack of socialization. .


This statement is incorrect. Suspicion is a genetic trait. My dog had very little socialization. It was the coldest winter we had ever had when he was a puppy. the only people he saw was at home or training.

Can you raise suspicion with a lack of socialization? Most likely. But dogs are what they are genetically. A dog with high suspicion should be socialized a bit more. One with low needs to be taught suspicion.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

There are too many dogs raised poorly and lacking socialization that maintain their inherent good dispositions and temperaments. A dog with less than a stable temperament will not fair so well. We see proof of this on a daily basis with neglected, unsocialized, and abandoned dogs who come out of it with no fear, suspicion or ill will toward people.

I totally disagree that a good guard dog is not afraid of people as a direct result of intense socialization. You can't take a dog that is a genetic nerve bag and make it truly confident regardless of socialization. You cannot get out of a dog what is not there to begin with.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

GSDCrazy1787 said:


> I am a first time GSD owner. When I heard how important it was to socialize a dog I thought well I should let everyone say hi to him! I didn't research what that meant and made a rookie mistake. Now that I look back on things I hate that I made that decision! I now have a dog that wants to say hi to everybody. That gets overly excited when he meets strangers and just wants to be loved on. Most people may not think that is a problem but I think it is because not everybody wants to say hi. Dante gets very excited when he sees strangers and some strangers can't read him and actually get scared cause they don't know if he is happy or not.
> 
> My mindset has now changed. I think of a well socialized dog as a dog who behaves themselves in public -- who tolerates people and lets people say hi but doesn't find it necessary to want to be petted or be aggressive to another person. So I would think twice before letting him say hi to everybody. I understand socializing is important because you don't want your dog to be aggressive to people but you also don't want her to be overly excited about people either. So now I am working with Dante to teach him that just because there is a person you see doesn't mean that you are going to get petted or that you should even acknowledge that person's presence.
> 
> Oh and I take the same view on dogs. I made the same mistake in letting him say hi to every dog he sees as a puppy and now I'm paying the price. Now I choose the dogs he says hi to and the ones he doesn't. He doesn't need to say hi to every dog he sees or you will have a very rambunctious I want to go play dog on your hands because that's exactly what I have now.


Ok I have been letting her say hi to pretty much anyone who wants to. Its been about 3-4 weeks of this. Is it too late for her? I mean if I stop now will she become aloof? She sometimes barks at weirdos and strange looking people walking around here.


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## GSDCrazy1787 (Sep 26, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Ok I have been letting her say hi to pretty much anyone who wants to. Its been about 3-4 weeks of this. Is it too late for her? I mean if I stop now will she become aloof? She sometimes barks at weirdos and strange looking people walking around here.


Oh no not at all! I did the same thing as you for the first 6 months. We have been transitioning to just saying hi to people I let him say hi too for about 6 months. It should be easier for you since you don't have to break a 6 month habit. 

I think a great training place to practice this is at a Lowes or Home Depot. You don't have as much people with dogs who are out of control as you do in a pet store and there is high distraction. This is once you have already mastered her commands in a low/no distraction environment. Though basically what I do is if I let Dante say hi to a person is let him sit first then allow the person to pet him. If he breaks the sit I tell the person to stop petting him. He only gets rewarded for calm behavior. If he is wiggly, excited, and all over the place I never condone this behavior and nobody gets to greet him. This method has taught my dog to be civil with people but for the most part ignore them unless I allow a greeting. 

I personally think it is never too late to teach this behavior so your 3-4 weeks should have little impact.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> That is a lot to ask of dog. Is your pup working line? What's his pedigree like? Do not count on your dog to attack an intruder unless he comes from lines specifically bred to be civil and you have actually done protection training with him.
> 
> It takes A LOT of blood, sweat, and tears to breed and train a proper guard dog. Most dogs - most GSDS are just not up to the challenge. Genetics are key.
> 
> ...


Ok, I got the dog from a BYB (I know, I know). The father though, is a big working line dog imported from Germany, this I have proof of. The mother looks like a regular GSD. When I came to pick up the pup, the parents barked at me relentlessly. If the pup has any of their instincts then I'm sure I'll be fine, but the owner of the parents did not socialize the dogs, he pretty much kept them in his backyard. But they had a great big 15x15 foot kennel and an enormous yard. Even though they weren't official by the book breeders, they kept the dogs in amazing condition. I wouldn't have gotten a sketchy dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Ok I have been letting her say hi to pretty much anyone who wants to. Its been about 3-4 weeks of this. Is it too late for her? I mean if I stop now will she become aloof? She sometimes barks at weirdos and strange looking people walking around here.


Weirdos and strange looking people walking around, to your puppy, could be somebody with a health condition or a using a walker. Not a good idea to let her react to something like that. Most thugs with ill intentions are not going to broadcast, they are going to be another face in the crowd, until they aren't.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Ok, I got the dog from a BYB (I know, I know). The father though, is a big working line dog imported from Germany, this I have proof of. The mother looks like a regular GSD. When I came to pick up the pup, the parents barked at me relentlessly. If the pup has any of their instincts then I'm sure I'll be fine, but the owner of the parents did not socialize the dogs, he pretty much kept them in his backyard. But they had a great big 15x15 foot kennel and an enormous yard. Even though they weren't official by the book breeders, they kept the dogs in amazing condition. I wouldn't have gotten a sketchy dog.


There is a HUGE difference in a dog that will bark ferociously and one who will actually engage and attack. Many, most shepherds, will bark like that. Might even go in for a nip. But they will not sustain an attack under pressure. All a bad guy has to do is give the dog a swift kick and they are done. 

It takes some serious genetics and the right training to get a dog that stops an attacker.

I train in IPO and TBH most of the dogs in the club, who train every week to bite a person, would not effectively stop an intruder. They work almost purely in prey drive, they fall apart when the pressure is on.

Talk to some guys who evaluate dogs for the police for patrol/dual purpose. They look at a lot of dogs and only a handful are civil in the way you want your pup to be.

I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud. Honestly. But from the sounds of it your pup probably does not have the genetics that it takes to do what you want of it. She'll make an awesome watch dog. She'll bark and growl at "bad guys" but she won't be able to stop them in any meaningful way.

Are you OK with that? 

If she grows up to be a total wuss that would sooner cower behind your legs then bark at a bad guy. Will you keep her? If push comes to shove and you or a family member is in a hairy situation and she does not defend - will you be disappointed in her? 

Tough questions. But it's better to ask them now. If a family protector is what you absolutely need then you need to be realistic about your pup. She doesnt have the breeding to do the work you want. You wont really have a clue about her defensive drive until she is around 2. You are taking a gamble on her panning out to be a protection dog. And the odds are definitely not in your favor. 

If she doesnt work out, what will you do with her. If you think that you would get rid of her and get a different dog - rehome her now while she is a baby and go find a working line animal from proven parents. Perhaps a young adult. 

If you would keep her and love her anyways. Stop worrying about teaching her to be a guard dog. Enjoy her puppyhood. Get her evaluated when she is old enough. Maybe look into trying some sport with her. Just have fun.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

My female GSD is 6 yrs old, we've been through a lot now. Looking back, I'd wished we socialized more. Its not that I restricted her, it had more to do with my schedule. I really love that she can go just about anywhere with me. And as she's aged, she really enjoys the people attention at stores and on walks.

I believe if you and really secure with your dog, get the training down, and make sure your dog has confidence in you, then your GSD will naturally know how to protect you and your family. Maybe not bite someone if they entered, but most likely give you warning before someone enters.

Our girl alerts a lot to things outside. She is naturally protective of our townhouse and car, or if I'm sitting and relaxing somewhere. For example, if I take her to the grocery store, she will bark fiercely at the clerk who wants to load my car. However if I take my dog out of the car and formally introduce her to the clerk, she is friendly. Also before introducing to a stranger, I give a verbal clue, "hello". I'll either say, "say hello" or "do you want to say hello?" and then Molly knows its OK with the stranger.

We had a freaky thing happen over the weekend. Me, Molly and my daughter were sitting in our car eating ice cream at Diary Queen, Molly sees this guy in the parking lot walking from about 30' away, and suddenly has a fierce bark. We calm her down, then as it happens this guy gets into the car next to us, and says to us, "everytime I see a GSD I just want to kill it!" So a good GSD who's allowed to develop their natural intuition, will definitely send you a warning signal something or someone is not right.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

GSDCrazy1787 said:


> I am a first time GSD owner. When I heard how important it was to socialize a dog I thought well I should let everyone say hi to him! I didn't research what that meant and made a rookie mistake. Now that I look back on things I hate that I made that decision! I now have a dog that wants to say hi to everybody. That gets overly excited when he meets strangers and just wants to be loved on. Most people may not think that is a problem but I think it is because not everybody wants to say hi. Dante gets very excited when he sees strangers and some strangers can't read him and actually get scared cause they don't know if he is happy or not.
> 
> My mindset has now changed. I think of a well socialized dog as a dog who behaves themselves in public -- who tolerates people and lets people say hi but doesn't find it necessary to want to be petted or be aggressive to another person. So I would think twice before letting him say hi to everybody. I understand socializing is important because you don't want your dog to be aggressive to people but you also don't want her to be overly excited about people either. So now I am working with Dante to teach him that just because there is a person you see doesn't mean that you are going to get petted or that you should even acknowledge that person's presence.
> 
> Oh and I take the same view on dogs. I made the same mistake in letting him say hi to every dog he sees as a puppy and now I'm paying the price. Now I choose the dogs he says hi to and the ones he doesn't. He doesn't need to say hi to every dog he sees or you will have a very rambunctious I want to go play dog on your hands because that's exactly what I have now.


ANd that would be the mistake that most people make with dogs that don't have a "people issue" you can go too far in the other direction. 

Proper introductions help to show the dog what "normal" interactions look like, Sit and Wait till released to meet ... no problem.

But the random meet and greet "everybody" thing ... that can be a problem, dare I say "especially" when you have company over! They are here to see meeee!!! Pretty much a standard Boxer problem. 

Better approach is found in the second link here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Controlled interact if you say yes. 

And for those that already got that part wrong?? You can start to undo the "crazy" by training Calmness into the Dog:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

When company comes over ... tell your dog's "Place." 


And to the OP ... the advise to "not do" the DIY PPD, approach has nothing to do with your dog ... it's just not a good ideal for the unskilled public.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Weirdos and strange looking people walking around, to your puppy, could be somebody with a health condition or a using a walker. Not a good idea to let her react to something like that. Most thugs with ill intentions are not going to broadcast, they are going to be another face in the crowd, until they aren't.


Some of the weirdos were certified crack heads and heroin addicts. Today, she acted kind of weird like smelling something in the distance, then I noticed a strange guy walking towards us. She grilled him walking all the way towards us. As he walked by I can see with 100% certainty this guy was a drug addict. Those are the types of people who are desperate and commit crimes. I don't want them anywhere near me or my family, or atleast a warning. The guy gave a great big toothless smile and kind of went in to try and pet my dog, he said "she was staring at me haha". I told him Don't pet my dog please, thanks. He goes ok, ok.

Maybe it was nothing, maybe it was something. But this wasn't the first time she reacted to strange people this way. But I agree with what you're saying most crimes are committed by normal looking folks. Which is why I'm wondering if I should only introduce the dog to people I know like family and friends and neighbors I trust.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> There is a HUGE difference in a dog that will bark ferociously and one who will actually engage and attack. Many, most shepherds, will bark like that. Might even go in for a nip. But they will not sustain an attack under pressure. All a bad guy has to do is give the dog a swift kick and they are done.
> 
> It takes some serious genetics and the right training to get a dog that stops an attacker.
> 
> ...


I agree, it takes a very special dog to make PPD. I definitely don't expect her to be that. Which is why I'm asking this question. Not socializing her, will it make her more aggressive towards strangers? Because I at least want a deterrent. I plan to introduce the dog to family, friends, neighbors. Should I let strangers pet her? You see, around here I bet 1/2 the people living around here have criminal records, actually 2/3 people wouldn't surprise me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Hmmm..your dog is like a baby right now, think of her as a three year old. She should not be making judgments of who is safe and who is not, she doesn't have that capacity.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hmmm..your dog is like a baby right now, think of her as a three year old. She should not be making judgments of who is safe and who is not, she doesn't have that capacity.


You are probably right. Just seemed too much of a coincidence for her to react that way only to those types of people. With women, kids, good people she's a total sweetheart. 
I read the Koehler guide on how to pick a puppy for guard or protection work. He had the breeder/owner walk the pup on a lead past a shack, a heavy man would jump out yell out a battle cry and let off 3 gunshots. According to him how the puppy reacts is a major deciding factor, if the pup cowers behind you he's no good for this type of work, if the pup stands still in curiosity he has potential, if the pup runs up to the guy wanting to play he also has potential, if the pup barks and growls at the guy then he has what it takes. 
So it is possible for a pup to at least have the capacity to have some kind engraved instincts whether the pup knows it or not.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Koehler was testing other factors, such as stability, nerves, confidence, environmental soundness, etc., with his tests, not the puppy's ability to discern a threat.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> You are probably right. Just seemed too much of a coincidence for her to react that way only to those types of people. With women, kids, good people she's a total sweetheart.
> I read the Koehler guide on how to pick a puppy for guard or protection work. He had the breeder/owner walk the pup on a lead past a shack, a heavy man would jump out yell out a battle cry and let off 3 gunshots. According to him how the puppy reacts is a major deciding factor, if the pup cowers behind you he's no good for this type of work, if the pup stands still in curiosity he has potential, if the pup runs up to the guy wanting to play he also has potential, if the pup barks and growls at the guy then he has what it takes.
> So it is possible for a pup to at least have the capacity to have some kind engraved instincts whether the pup knows it or not.


Dogs react out of fear also. Strange people acting erratically or owner reactions can cause fear reactivity. Lots of certified trainers in NY state. Have them evaluate your dog. Good luck.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> I agree, it takes a very special dog to make PPD. I definitely don't expect her to be that. Which is why I'm asking this question. Not socializing her, will it make her more aggressive towards strangers? Because I at least want a deterrent. I plan to introduce the dog to family, friends, neighbors. Should I let strangers pet her? You see, around here I bet 1/2 the people living around here have criminal records, actually 2/3 people wouldn't surprise me


You don't want your dog to be aggressive towards strangers. You her to be neutral to them. You want her to be able to accept being handled by strangers when needed. What happens when you take her to the vet? Strangers will be touching her all over. Emergencies happen. What if you or a family member are home alone and need a paramedic? What if your kids bring home a new friend? 

I've had a dog of mine bite someone. It was a nightmare. And yes it was in defense.

Not socializing a dog like a shepherd is going to cause so many issues down the line. You dont want her to be overly suspicious. I'm not saying to let every bozo love on her. But expose her to a wide array of people, places and things. Don't encourage non neutral behavior. 

Teach her to bark on command. Loud bark from a shepherd is pretty much all the deterrent you need.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> I agree, it takes a very special dog to make PPD. I definitely don't expect her to be that. Which is why I'm asking this question. Not socializing her, will it make her more aggressive towards strangers? Because I at least want a deterrent. I plan to introduce the dog to family, friends, neighbors. Should I let strangers pet her? You see, around here I bet 1/2 the people living around here have criminal records, actually 2/3 people wouldn't surprise me.


First of all, not a fan of strangers petting my dogs.

Second, my PPD loved everyone. And she was fantastic at her job. Which was to discern a threat and prevent or stop an attack with or without a command.

Third, not socializing your dog could create a liability. Bear in mind that a dog that's a liability often equals a dead dog.

And finally, she's a baby. She is almost certainly responding out of fear and uncertainty, quite possibly fed my your tension or nerves. Alert barking is fear based and should be discouraged. Basically dogs bark at things that make them nervous to tell you to come fix the problem. Stable, secure dogs seldom bark without encouragement unless they are frustrated by something.

If you are looking for a deterrent teach her to bark on command, a quiet signal or hand sign. Sabi would light right up at a 'tssst'. She knew all I wanted her to do was bark her fool head off. It was a simple, effective way to warn most people off. The only time I ever used it at work was to wake up drunk vagrants.:smile2:


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Is moving an option?


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> You don't want your dog to be aggressive towards strangers. You her to be neutral to them. You want her to be able to accept being handled by strangers when needed. What happens when you take her to the vet? Strangers will be touching her all over. Emergencies happen. What if you or a family member are home alone and need a paramedic? What if your kids bring home a new friend?
> 
> I've had a dog of mine bite someone. It was a nightmare. And yes it was in defense.
> 
> ...


Good advice, I'm new to all this. Everyone around here has pit bulls, and as viscous as many of them look and are brought up...they actually are a very people friendly dog. They love people.

When you say don't encourage non-neutral behavior, exactly what does this look like? How is a neutral encounter? Women, and kids love to pet my dog, she goes nuts, licks hands tail wagging. How do i encourage neutral interactions?


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> First of all, not a fan of strangers petting my dogs.
> 
> Second, my PPD loved everyone. And she was fantastic at her job. Which was to discern a threat and prevent or stop an attack with or without a command.
> 
> ...


Yes I really need to get the bark on command down. And I need to learn how to make her bark at an object or person. You said you're not a fan of of strangers petting your dog, but also that not socializing it will create a liability. How do you socialize it without letting people pet it?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think it depends on you and your pup and the changes in him when he grows as -,I found who I let pet my pup when or where or who all were ever based if my pup really wanted to be pet or not and he was also not the puppy who would bark at people on the street for attention. Pups all have different personalities and go through different stages. You need to know your pup and set him up for successful encounters if chosen that route. 
This thread you started has great info by many this is another very long thread on socialization with pups with dogs and people. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/#/forumsite/20533/topics/400690?page=4


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Yes I really need to get the bark on command down. And I need to learn how to make her bark at an object or person. You said you're not a fan of of strangers petting your dog, but also that not socializing it will create a liability. How do you socialize it without letting people pet it?


The idea is not to teach her to bark AT anything, you just want her to bark.

Socializing, you don't need to let everyone pet her. You need to get her out and about, let her see, hear and smell. Choose a select few people that you want to let pet her.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Yes I really need to get the bark on command down. And I need to learn how to make her bark at an object or person. You said you're not a fan of of strangers petting your dog, but also that not socializing it will create a liability. How do you socialize it without letting people pet it?


You should expose your dog to everything. Most people with working dogs do not socialize. Nobody needs to pet your dog, although it is a good idea to take your dog to the veterinarian's and other such places for some handling as you will most likely need that in the future as mentioned earlier.

In a neighborhood as you describe, beware of barking dogs. They are attractants to thugs who will abuse your dog. Often it is the dog that does not bark that creates more fear.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This puppy is pretty young still, right? I am not sure I would be encouraging or trying to teach barking right now. You know what your intentions are for that (her to appear to be protecting you)....and it just lends itself too much to encouraging the wrong kind of behavior at this age. Your statement of "well I have got to teach her to bark AT someone" is a good example.

Forget the dog protecting you or anything that resembles the dog protecting you. You need to be thinking about protecting her and nurturing her and that is what she needs to sense from you because she is a baby. 

If you are practicing the bark on command and accidentally get her to bark at a crackhead and then you are proud of her...well...I just don't think any of that is appropriate at this age, especially because this dog has already barked at some people which if it were my puppy, I wouldn't be happy about that.

I am going to a great deal of trouble to make sure my 10 month old isn't barking at people and not encouraging his suspicion of people because my sense is he could go way too far with it and that is not appropriate. 

Hope that makes sense. Also, I think this is OP's first GSD a d if you have 't been behind an adult GSD putting on a big display (whether out of fear or not)...you don't know what you're in for. What looks like one thing from a little puppy is going to be something totally different when she is all grown up so be careful what you reinforce or train


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

When I said don't encourage non neutral reactions - i meant the behavior she showed to the drug addict the other day. 

At her age she it is perfectly normal to be a love bug towards the people you let her interact with. My boy literally crawled into the lap of a big burly biker dude for puppy kisses at that age. She may out grow that. Shepherds tend to be aloof. My guy stopped caring about others at 6 months some dogs develop the aloofness around 3 years. Some never quite get it.

But that hard stare? No bueno. She was unsure about the situation. If it were my pup as soon as she started that I would have given a cheerful 'what up pup!?' To show her I wasn't sensing a threat. When the guy approached my pup I would have made a point to step in front of her blocking him. Showing her that 'I got this'. 

If you had praised her for her behavior, it's a start on the slippery slope leading to reactivity. That suspicion was not coming from i-protect-my-family inclinations from her. It was self preservation. It's your job to give her security and show her that she doesn't have to protect herself that you will protect her. That will lead to a confident dog at maturity. That will be discerning when her protective instincts do kick in.

I think you have a bit of a romantic notion as to the protective ability of dogs. 

I live in a bad neighborhood too. Had a random woman OD in my yard a few years back, crack head was living in my neighbor's crawl space, the schizophrenic homeless guy stole a bag of compost out of my side yard last week, lots of drug activity, B&Es, gun shots and the like. So I get it. But putting pressure on such a young dog to be protective can ruin her.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Voodoo lamb said what I was trying to say way better than I said it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> You are probably right. Just seemed too much of a coincidence for her to react that way only to those types of people. With women, kids, good people she's a total sweetheart.
> I read the Koehler guide on how to pick a puppy for guard or protection work. He had the breeder/owner walk the pup on a lead past a shack, a heavy man would jump out yell out a battle cry and let off 3 gunshots. According to him how the puppy reacts is a major deciding factor, if the pup cowers behind you he's no good for this type of work, if the pup stands still in curiosity he has potential, if the pup runs up to the guy wanting to play he also has potential, if the pup barks and growls at the guy then he has what it takes.
> So it is possible for a pup to at least have the capacity to have some kind engraved instincts whether the pup knows it or not.


LOL ...and people give me grief over "Bonkers" and "Pet convincers!!" Bet I don't seem so wild now. 

But not to throw "Kohler" under the bus ... "Puppy" clip from Pirates Lair, there was another with a younger still pup ... gun fire and swimming and chaos and such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNOxux5q57A


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Having people pet your dog is fine. These dogs are smart, they can actually make good decisions. It is up to us to give them enough experience with normal interaction so that they do not make the wrong decision. 

Having a friendly dog that people can and do pet will not make the dog less of a deterrent if someone intent on violence accosts you. I would not teach the dog to bark like a maniac at people. Bark on command, SPEAK! is a good trick to teach, because while you are doing this in a fun manner, you can also teach QUIET. And it is a LOT easier to teach QUIET without aversives if you are doing along with the SPEAK command. Good Quiet! Kind of like HUPP and OFF, OFF is a very useful command, but it can be viewed as negative and much easier to teach positively when you teach it with the HUPP command. 

What gives unsavory characters pause is not the barking, lunging, jumping dog. Actually, it is the well mannered, trained dog that makes them think twice. 

Let your puppy be a puppy, discourage letting them jump on people. Pick and choose who you allow to pet: If people have dogs, they are generally wondering if your dog is going to react, or their dog is going to react and usually they aren't to interested in petting your dog. If someone has 3 brats with them that she has little control over, I decline. I want good experiences, and I don't want a puppy smothered by kids who may or may not listen to instructions. On the other hand, you might be in a three-child situation at some point, and you do not want your grown puppy to react. So pay attention now to how children are behaved. If kids ask, say "yes, but he has to SIT first." This seems to give the kids as much pause as it gives the dog. Once the dog sits, you can instruct the children if necessary. Dogs don't always like the hand coming down from the heavens onto their heads. Have them offer the hand, and then pet the chin, and up the neck onto the head.

For baby puppies, I say to the dog, "Say Hello" and the dog approaches the people and sniffs, Then I say, "Good Boy, Good Hello." And that is usually enough. 

The real trick is to ensure that your puppy has confidence in YOU first. Too many people rush out with their 8-week-old puppy fresh from the breeder and they start socializing the pup to everything. The pup may find that people back up and go away if it barks or if it slinks down and hides. The puppy is kind of out on a limb here. Everything is brand new. The baby puppy would be fine spending the first week at home, learning his new routine and his new people, where to pee, where not to poop, how to tell them he has to go outside, what to chew on, what NOT to chew on, where to sleep, and so forth. There is no hurry to get him out on the street meeting all the strangers. Get to know him a little first. 

When you do go out with him, keep the leash loose. Let him explore his world. Don't make a big deal about ANYTHING. Just, yep, that's a dog. Yep, that's a garbage can. It is kind of nice if you can kind of set up your first few meetings. I mean, if you are walking down the street and your friend sees you and gets all excited and screeches in a high pitched voice, "Ohhhhhh, your new puppy!!!!, and spreads her arms wide and your pup wants to dive behind you and hide. A better first introduction would be to walk up to someone, ask them before hand to ignore your puppy, and start having a normal conversation with them. Let the puppy investigate them. Then have your friend offer a hand and if the puppy is liking the petting, then try eye contact. 

After a couple of safe meetings, then you can be a little bolder, but stop before your puppy is overwhelmed. 

I understand that your pup is already a little older. I would work on obedience, and petting when calm, and doing something for you, like SIT!


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> When I said don't encourage non neutral reactions - i meant the behavior she showed to the drug addict the other day.
> 
> At her age she it is perfectly normal to be a love bug towards the people you let her interact with. My boy literally crawled into the lap of a big burly biker dude for puppy kisses at that age. She may out grow that. Shepherds tend to be aloof. My guy stopped caring about others at 6 months some dogs develop the aloofness around 3 years. Some never quite get it.
> 
> ...



I did kind of praise her for the dope head stare down. At least Im honest. As far as the romantic notion, lol. No. My chow growing up wouldn't let anyone near the family. It wasn't very fun. But now, I don't want anyone around here going next to my family. I actually wish I had that chow growing up now for my family. I can't keep an eye on my kids 24/7, if they want to go to the park or the store, I really don't want anyone going near them. 
That is my situation.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> ANd that would be the mistake that most people make with dogs that don't have a "people issue" you can go too far in the other direction.
> 
> Proper introductions help to show the dog what "normal" interactions look like, Sit and Wait till released to meet ... no problem.
> 
> ...





MineAreWorkingline said:


> You should expose your dog to everything. Most people with working dogs do not socialize. Nobody needs to pet your dog, although it is a good idea to take your dog to the veterinarian's and other such places for some handling as you will most likely need that in the future as mentioned earlier.
> 
> In a neighborhood as you describe, beware of barking dogs. They are attractants to thugs who will abuse your dog. Often it is the dog that does not bark that creates more fear.





NYCgsd said:


> Yes I really need to get the bark on command down. And I need to learn how to make her bark at an object or person. You said you're not a fan of of strangers petting your dog, but also that not socializing it will create a liability. How do you socialize it without letting people pet it?


 The answer to your question ... I already gave you on a Silver Plate. As stated previously ...second link here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

But I don't want to be difficult so one more try:
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

It's pretty much that simple. And proofed by my me at anyrate with a "people friendly Boxer" and a *"stay out of my freaking face, I don't know you or care," *OS WL GSD with decidedly people Aggressive tendencies! 

It was the same deal, only difference was with one "Breed" I would say yes and with the other I would say "NO."

To an outside observer, both dogs would appear the same. They stood calmly by my side. Both of them understood what "normal human interaction looked like. What would they do if someone acted like a fool and got in my face??

I don't know?? My dogs are family pets not PPD, but they understood what "normal" human interaction looked like and if they ever saw something that did not look like that ... not my problem. 

But the OP is free to "reinvent the wheel" if they chose ... let me know what you come up with?? 

It's starting to seem kinda like this:









Show them how you expect them to behave, dogs get that. The actual process is not that hard ..the only requirement on the owner's part ... is recognizing if you have a yes "Please do Pet" or a "Uh NO" stay back Please, dog. The process is the same ... as I see it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> I did kind of praise her for the dope head stare down. At least Im honest. As far as the romantic notion, lol. No. My chow growing up wouldn't let anyone near the family. It wasn't very fun. But now, I don't want anyone around here going next to my family. I actually wish I had that chow growing up now for my family. I can't keep an eye on my kids 24/7, if they want to go to the park or the store, I really don't want anyone going near them.
> That is my situation.


I find it incredulous you want an out of control aggressive dog like your chow now. 

If you can't watch your kids 24/7 the last thing they need is to be paired with an aggressive german shepherd. How are they going to keep the dog from biting someone? 

A dog neutral to strangers is your best bet. Unless you want the dog killed and yourself sued.

What you did was reward that dog for fearful behavior. Encouraging her to be afraid. Keep that up and you will have an aggressive dog. An unpredictable one. One that ends up biting a guy on crutches, because to her crutches are weird/new/scary and you have reinforced that she needs to defend herself when she encounters something weird/new/scary. Dangerous. 

Get the pup to into training classes. Learn dog behavior. Teach her the basics. Socialize her. When she is an adult she may have the protective instincts you want - regardless of how many people she has met. The goal of socialization/exposure is to make her a dog SAFE in public. Ypu live in the city. She absolutely must be safe in public. When she grows she might not have any protective instincts but That's the gamble you are taking by getting a BYB pup. It's genetic.

But like it has been said those instincts do not kick in this early. You are not shaping protective behavior. Just aggression and/or fear.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> The answer to your question ... I already gave you on a Silver Plate. As stated previously ...second link here:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html
> 
> ...


I read that very carefully. It states to train your dog to ignore strangers and small children. Its REALLY difficult to say no to kids wanting to pet your dog, plus I am getting conflicting advice, some say to let it meet as many people as possible to avoid aggression.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

OP, are your intentions to have your children manage and control an aggressive dog without parental supervision? If that is your intention, do you think that is wise to impose such a responsibility on a child? 

Don't get me wrong, I understand your neighborhood and that you want your children to be safe and to have some freedom to play and explore without fear. I just want to make sure that I fully understand your expectations.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

NYCgsd said:


> I read that very carefully. It states to train your dog to ignore strangers and small children. Its REALLY difficult to say no to kids wanting to pet your dog, plus I am getting conflicting advice, some say to let it meet as many people as possible to avoid aggression.


My general plan is, it depends on the dog. If you have a puppy that likes contact with people, I let them. If you have one thats uncomfortable with it, or bothered by the whole thing, I just keep him out and around. Either way once they're older, how I want them to behave around strangers or even people they know will be training anyway.

Maybe I'm reading it differently or something, but if your puppy didn't cower or put on some fearful display, I don't think she did anything wrong, keeping her eye on some derelict. Aloof doesn't mean oblivious. Seems like that should be a part of her seeing her world.


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## Zac Thompson (Apr 16, 2016)

I am trying to socialize my new pup as well. This thread has a lot of good information. I don't need him to be a guard/watch dog but I do want him to be neutral to strangers and other dogs unless he is given a command that it is ok to great someone new. My experience with most dogs is they will bark if they sense something that is amiss. My pup is only 12 weeks old right now so my main focus is working on basic obedience and commands. I am planning on taking him to classes this summer, and potentially doing SAR pending he gets a good evaluation for that type of training.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> I read that very carefully. It states to train your dog to ignore strangers and small children. Its REALLY difficult to say no to kids wanting to pet your dog, plus I am getting conflicting advice, some say to let it meet as many people as possible to avoid aggression.


OK I see, you ask reasonable questions so let's see what I can do.

As it happens I have used "The Who Pet's" thing with my HA OS WL GSD and my People luv'ing Boxer. Difference was with my "Boxer" when asked the answer was always yes "Please Do" and with my OS WL GSD, the answer was always "NO' in the beginning and after a lot of people ignoring the answer became yes on occasion. 

In Struddels case it was about Socialization (contact) and in Rocky's case it was about (exposure) no contact. I showed my GSD what normal human interaction looked like no participation on his part required. He got that. His "job" was to stand there quietly and let "Daddy" interact with people, his roll was to do nothing.

The spin you take depends on the dog in front of you?? You say you can't imagine telling children no?? Well with your dog you may not need to??? If you're not looking at the best type of "muzzle" to use on your dog when taking him for a walk?? Then you most likely don't have a HA dog??

I used one for awhile with Rocky, until I showed him and he understood, how I expected him to behave around people. Once he got that, I no longer needed the muzzle, I still said "NO" to contact but he was not a problem. He looked to me for guidance on how to behave with people.

And actually I did not even need to say "NO" most of the time. When I stepped in front of him, it became pretty clear to people in general ... don't even ask. 

But with my "Boxer" I went as others have pointed out to far in the other direction. A simple mistake and a different kind of "Blow Back" everybody was her freind! People were great, she walked well on leash but meet and greets got her pretty ramped up! And she did this with company in the home and that got crazy! Having her sit and be calm first before meeting people would have been a much better plan.

Put another way ... if you train your dog to be excited to meet people, then your dog will be excited to meet people. 

But "exposure" to people and controlled socialization (meeting people) is the key. How much of either is OK?? Depends on the dog in front of you.

But ... "Who Pets" is the difference between why biting dog threads on here get so crazy! For me, I don't care what a dog's bite history is because with me they won't get an "opportunity' to practice "unpredictable behaviour in public." I keep people at a respectable distance until "I" know the dog, I'm working with.

And that included friends in my case and we don't have kids. Saying "No" to kids does kinda sting but ... I have a "Zero" bite policy and that is how I enforce it.

And beyond the Walking and saying No or Yes depending on circumstances and the dog.. . there is also this "The Place Command and Sit on the Dog" the dog simply sits and observes. Details are here:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

So it's not about only doing one thing it's about balance. You only run into problems if you try and force a dog that is clearly uncomfortable around people to interact with them. And for the record I did not need treats to get Struddell to like people and I most certainly did not try and lure people into Rocky's face with the use of treats ... just saying.

You just need to respect your dogs choices as regards people, they either like people are they don't, if you deem them unpredictable, then it's exposure not socialization, a dog only has to be safe around people they don't have to like them.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> OK I see, you ask reasonable questions so let's see what I can do.
> 
> As it happens I have used "The Who Pet's" thing with my HA OS WL GSD and my People luv'ing Boxer. Difference was with my "Boxer" when asked the answer was always yes "Please Do" and with my OS WL GSD, the answer was always "NO' in the beginning and after a lot of people ignoring the answer became yes on occasion.
> 
> ...


My dog seems to get excited when meeting adults, and is a bit less excited meeting kids. With adults she jumps up licking hands, with kids she doesnt jump, but still approaches them. Almost like she knows kids are more delicate. So its been about 4 weeks of pretty much letting her meet anyone. I'm going to stop that now. I will let her interact with people I trust and know, and will make her sit and wait before any interaction. My neighbors are sort of getting the point the past couple days I pulled my dog away, I see a problem arising because she gets excited meeting people and jumps on them. This is fine when she's 25lbs, but when she's 60lbs or more I cannot afford that liability. Thanks for all the links. But from your experience in general, does over socializing a dog make them less of a guard dog? And Ive been doing the step in front of her thing also the past couple of days. Makes it easy and clear that I don't want people petting her. A nice polite kid came up to me with his mom and asked me if he can pet her, I let him, then he asked his mom. He was so nice and well behaved I let him, and the interaction was great. My dog wasn't jump, she was very nice and so was the kid.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If greeting ppl is very rewarding to your dog, make sure that it is a reward she earns from you (sit and eye contact or whatever), not a reward she gets for herself by dragging you over to someone or the like.

Anything that my dogs really want or enjoy (that isnt harmful or dangerous), I try to incorporate it into training as a reward they earn from me. So they get a lot of what they want, but they get it through me. I am the source of All Good Things.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NYCgsd said:


> I read that very carefully. It states to train your dog to ignore strangers and small children. Its REALLY difficult to say no to kids wanting to pet your dog, plus I am getting conflicting advice, some say to let it meet as many people as possible to avoid aggression.


Although Chip seems to feel very strongly about this, not everyone agrees with that Leerburg article about not letting people pet your puppy, so keep that in mind. It's just ONE philosophy, not the only right way.  As others have mentioned, there's a difference between puppies that like people and are interested in interacting with them, and those that are shy or fearful and could be easily overwhelmed. 

For me, I'd rather do what you've been doing - use encounters with people as a training tool to reinforce good greeting manners. Once your puppy is older you can certainly start training her to ignore people and focus on you, but at 13 weeks old she's still a baby. I don't see any reason to have her avoid meeting people when she's clearly interested in doing so. It shouldn't cause her to be any less of a guard dog than she would be, (or not), based on her genetics.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

See other posts about extensive socializing helping dogs discern a true threat. I do not think socializing will prevent your dog from being a good gsd if she has that propensity. Some don't and not because they were socialized. I don't know how a dog could be more socialized than mine was as a pup and she has never failed to protect me when I really needed it.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

It has come to my attention that dogs, and especially puppies, jump up because they are shorter then us. When greeting puppies I crouch down, to make jumping unnecessary. If needed from that point I can gently discourage with a hand.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> But from your experience in general, does over socializing a dog make them less of a guard dog?


No. Concentrate on teaching her to behave and pay attention to how she lives with your family. Don't start doing a bunch of goofy stuff making her suspicious beyond what she will be naturally. 

If you don't have access to someone really good to continually train with, don't try stuff former and ex trainers of this and that tell you to do. When you have dogs and kids, its more important that you learn how to keep them living peacefully together then turn your dog into an edgy, suspicious mess that startles every time someone walks by her.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> My dog seems to get excited when meeting adults, and is a bit less excited meeting kids. With adults she jumps up licking hands, with kids she doesnt jump, but still approaches them. Almost like she knows kids are more delicate. So its been about 4 weeks of pretty much letting her meet anyone. I'm going to stop that now. I will let her interact with people I trust and know, and will make her sit and wait before any interaction. My neighbors are sort of getting the point the past couple days I pulled my dog away, I see a problem arising because she gets excited meeting people and jumps on them. This is fine when she's 25lbs, but when she's 60lbs or more I cannot afford that liability. Thanks for all the links. But from your experience in general, does over socializing a dog make them less of a guard dog? And Ive been doing the step in front of her thing also the past couple of days. Makes it easy and clear that I don't want people petting her. A nice polite kid came up to me with his mom and asked me if he can pet her, I let him, then he asked his mom. He was so nice and well behaved I let him, and the interaction was great. My dog wasn't jump, she was very nice and so was the kid.


Just curious, what message do you think you are sending to your dog by stepping in front of her when you don't want her to meet a person or dog? Question number two, what do you think is happening behind your back when you are squaring off with somebody that you don't want to interact with your dog? 

I think who pets your dog depends on a lot of factors. One trainer I know wants everybody to pet his puppies, but he has a very different type of GSD than you do. He also knows that his puppies are going to be receiving formal training in personal protection. By and large, most people I know don't let strangers interact with their dogs, they take them out for exposure only, but you have to assess your individual situation. 

I think in a neighborhood like yours, you are going to encounter people, even youngsters, that are going to put pressure on your young puppy and you won't have the experience to recognize it as it happens right in front of you. If I were you, I would not let locals touch my dog, or let them near her. Your discretion with neighbors you feel are safe, but I would take the dog to better neighborhoods for petting if that is what you choose.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> But from your experience in general, does over socializing a dog make them less of a guard dog?


Why would it? A well socialized, stable dog is a secure dog. A dog that understands the world around it and isn't likely to spook or jump at odd things, but one that can easily and clearly understand when something really is wrong.
As I said, Sabs was a highly social, go anywhere, do anything dog. It impeded her work ability NOT ONE BIT. 
In 8 years as my partner and 13 years as my pal not one time was she ever wrong, and not one time did she fail to respond.
Teach your pup to be a good family member, teach her appropriate manners and behavior. A child walking a well loved, well behaved GSD is pretty safe. Most would be problems will seek an easier target.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

My dog is very socialized she's super happy to meet anyone and everyone. She doesn't go the extra mile to meet someone. For a example she doesn't pull me on a walk just to meet someone. But she's very trusting with strangers, that kind of bothers me a little. I was wondering does that change over time as she matures? She's only 16 months. 

She doesn't have to be a guard dog, I don't pressure her to meet someone nor do I keep her away from people. The other day I bumped into a woman delivering pizza and she ask does my dog bite I said no but she can be moody sometimes even though part of that isn't true. So she said never mind I wanted to pet her and then I replied with yeah not right now maybe later. So is there anyway she can learn that not all strangers are friendly ?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

For me it depends on the personality of the dog. I went to a pet fair yesterday and took them on separate trips. Deja, I worked on getting her to ignore everything around her which worked beautifully. Cam, on the other hand, interacted appropriately with people and dogs that I trusted. I want him to become a READ dog for kids in elementary schools next years. I was so proud of their behavior and seeing their different temperaments when it comes to mingle in public.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> My dog seems to get excited when meeting adults, and is a bit less excited meeting kids. With adults she jumps up licking hands, with kids she doesnt jump, but still approaches them. Almost like she knows kids are more delicate. So its been about 4 weeks of pretty much letting her meet anyone. I'm going to stop that now. I will let her interact with people I trust and know, and will make her sit and wait before any interaction. My neighbors are sort of getting the point the past couple days I pulled my dog away, I see a problem arising because she gets excited meeting people and jumps on them. This is fine when she's 25lbs, but when she's 60lbs or more I cannot afford that liability. Thanks for all the links. But from your experience in general, does over socializing a dog make them less of a guard dog? And Ive been doing the step in front of her thing also the past couple of days. Makes it easy and clear that I don't want people petting her. A nice polite kid came up to me with his mom and asked me if he can pet her, I let him, then he asked his mom. He was so nice and well behaved I let him, and the interaction was great. My dog wasn't jump, she was very nice and so was the kid.


I see the folks that do guard dog stuff have already chimed in. 

Only thing I'd add to that, is that a PPD that is actively hostile or unpredictable in public?? Is not of much value, if it is unsafe to take a PPD with you ... not much value to be found there?? Exposure to people would work just fine or skip that and go with Plan B a lawyer on Speed Dial.  

I just do well behaved family pets not being a tool is there "Job." 

But yeah your getting it, it's about balance and working with the dog in front of you. And yep even if they like people that can get nutty and out of control fast! It's all about balance and you seem to understand that! Out thinking your dog is the first step to being successful in training your dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think it's more about managing excitement than anything. Teaching calmness and self control, and that other people, dogs, cars, etc. do not mean the dog should get over excited are key.

If a pup likes to say hello to people, and you can work some control into the greeting, great. But not with so much excitement they are jumping up or even getting mouthy. Avoid letting the pup meet everyone he wants, practice passing people without excitement or greeting. 

Even my not so social dogs, can learn to chill out and relax in busy settings. It's about controlling that arousal level. 

Excitement can show in aggression or in over friendly behaviors that can still be dangerous.

This is why I am careful in rewarding a dog with drive building behaviors like tug or ball for good relaxed social behavior. I prefer either a calm "good girl" or a bit of food once in a while. 

If you want your dog to be a good deterrent, you want her calm, steady, and in control of herself. 

Controlling arousal and practicing calmness are key.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

...and then a young lady came onto the fair with a definite wolf hybrid that was lunging at every dog she saw, including at Deja, who just kept her cool. I asked if she needed help. Answer, as expected, "No, she is just excited". So I walked on. Some people cannot be helped, possibly not having worries or problems. Glad that all my training is paying off , resulting in calm dogs in public.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> My dog seems to get excited when meeting adults, and is a bit less excited meeting kids. With adults she jumps up licking hands, with kids she doesnt jump, but still approaches them. Almost like she knows kids are more delicate. So its been about 4 weeks of pretty much letting her meet anyone. I'm going to stop that now. I will let her interact with people I trust and know, and will make her sit and wait before any interaction. My neighbors are sort of getting the point the past couple days I pulled my dog away, I see a problem arising because she gets excited meeting people and jumps on them. This is fine when she's 25lbs, but when she's 60lbs or more I cannot afford that liability. Thanks for all the links. But from your experience in general, does over socializing a dog make them less of a guard dog? And Ive been doing the step in front of her thing also the past couple of days. Makes it easy and clear that I don't want people petting her. A nice polite kid came up to me with his mom and asked me if he can pet her, I let him, then he asked his mom. He was so nice and well behaved I let him, and the interaction was great. My dog wasn't jump, she was very nice and so was the kid.


Well there you go, your recognizing behaviors and making adjustments in your approach! 

An intelligent "variation" of "Who Pets ..." based on the dog in front of you!  It does not have to be a hard and fast, Not know not ever Not anyone kind of rule. Although, I will grant that yeah it does kinda read that way. 

But as you see ... it's not a "concept" cast in stone a yes or no is a viable answer it depends on the dog, and ... it seems like you get that! 




Thecowboysgirl said:


> If greeting ppl is very rewarding to your dog, make sure that it is a reward she earns from you (sit and eye contact or whatever), not a reward she gets for herself by dragging you over to someone or the like.
> 
> Anything that my dogs really want or enjoy (that isnt harmful or dangerous), I try to incorporate it into training as a reward they earn from me. So they get a lot of what they want, but they get it through me. I am the source of All Good Things.


This is great advise, also, it's just as easy to have problems with a people friendly dog as it is one that is, less so.

Going forward "something" will be required of my dogs before I say yes.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> ...and then a young lady came onto the fair with a definite wolf hybrid that was lunging at every dog she saw, including at Deja, who just kept her cool. I asked if she needed help. Answer, as expected, "No, she is just excited". So I walked on. Some people cannot be helped, possibly not having worries or problems. Glad that all my training is paying off , resulting in calm dogs in public.


That sounds perfect. Was she ever tested? In her whole life?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

NYCgsd said:


> That sounds perfect. Was she ever tested? In her whole life?


Tested for what? She, meaning Deja?


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Tested for what? She, meaning Deja?


Yes, Deja is the WL breed right? Just curious if she was ever tested in real life.


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