# please help urgent-my mlae just bite a family member



## nickamber (Feb 9, 2008)

Hi

I am stil in shock over this. My male German Shepherd that is 15 months old just bit my 17 year old daughter. What took place is this-I let him in from being outside in the yard, he was outside with my other male playing for about an hour,so I was bringing him in and was going to put him in his crate for the night,he did not want to go in so i was going to get him a treat and let him hang around the house for a little while,well my daughter pushed himnot hard or mean in his butt the dog bit her 3 times I did not even know this was happening until she yelled "MOM HE IS BITING ME" I mean he did not bark ,growl nothing i thought he was just sniffing her. 

He has NEVER shown any meaness or anything of that sort. If anything he is like a big goofy dog,the least likely to hurt anyone. WE had him since he was 12 weeks old. He is a family dog kept in the house,crate only at night for bed, we walk him play with him. I just do not understand this and do not know what to do. he broke the skin on her leg her arms and other leg are fine. right now he is outside. 

We are all so upset,I do not know what to do with him. he knows his commands has been to training,this just not like him .please any advise will be needed.Did anyone else ever had this happen with your German Shepherds? One more thing he is not fixed and we do not breed him we have a female that is 5 years old ,but she is fixed. thanks for your help in advance. I am so upset,oh and just to let all of you know I am 46 and since I was a kid we always had German shepherds so I am not new to this breed.Hi


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

nickamber..

When you say 'he knows his commands he has been to training' .... Was that training YOU and your family attended at the same time? or did you send him away? (so a dog trainer who knows how to be a leader and train dogs does it, then you still have no experience?)

Is he neutered?

Is there a possibility he has a sore or injury near where your daughter touched? Does he normally mind being touched all over his body (I know my Bretta hates being surprised when something touches her hind legs)?

Were your dogs alone outdoors with no supervision from you? Does the play between your males ever get out of hand between the 2 of them (or are you not sure of this cause you aren't out there monitoring their activity?). I know the dynamics can easily change between dogs as they mature, ESPECIALLY if the dogs are intact. STRESS for one or both dogs.

What current training/exercise does he get weekly that you are a part of.

If you can go up to your User CP and add your GENERAL location it will show up with your avatar. That way we can possibly give more specific help and information. For instance, if you live near me in the PA/NJ/NY area a good place to get help is http://www.raspberryridgesheepfarm.com/index.aspx


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

I know that sometimes if they are playing hard, it takes them a few minutes to wind down. It sounds like he was still in an aggressive state, since he wouldn't go in his crate. If your daughter pushed him in his butt, he could have taken that as more play and bit her. GSD's play very hard with each other and they use biting as part of that play. If your dog views your daughter as just another member of the pack instead of respecting her as a leader, then he could have been playing with her like the other dog. Or he was just still very excited and when she pushed him, he bit her out of excitement. If she came at him from behind she may have startled him. It's good to follow the no touch, no talk, no eye contact rule when they are excited, until they calm down and sit.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

nickamber said:


> Hi
> 
> I am stil in shock over this. My male German Shepherd that is 15 months old just bit my 17 year old daughter. What took place is this-I let him in from being outside in the yard, he was outside with my other male playing for about an hour,so I was bringing him in and was going to put him in his crate for the night,he did not want to go in so i was going to get him a treat and let him hang around the house for a little while,well my daughter pushed himnot hard or mean in his butt the dog bit her 3 times I did not even know this was happening until she yelled "MOM HE IS BITING ME" I mean he did not bark ,growl nothing i thought he was just sniffing her.
> 
> ...


From your description, it sounds like it was more like a nip (still VERY painful) than an all out bite if they barely broke the skin. probably just from over excitement and still being all "UP" from playing with the other dog. Sounds like he was still thinking of playing real rough as he did with the other dog.

Our current Baron (2 1/2 yo male GSD) has been known to get real rough playing with people if you physically play with him and try pushing him away and yet most of the time he is very very nice.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Couple of possibilities. It so hard to know exactly what is going on without seeing the situation and the body language of the dog. Where was his tail? His ears? Was he standing very tall looking at something else? Did he jump around and nail her? Or was it more calm? All this things play into it. You said he made no noise. You said he was out with your other male? So do you have 3 dogs in your household? As he's getting older the pack dynamics could be shifting as he challenges for higher rank. It could also just be non-thinking play behavior. GSDs are notoriously mouthy.

Like others said it could have been misdirected play or possibly aggression. Your daughter pushed him from behind and he reacted possibly without thinking. I know that when my dog is in a heightened emotional state and focused on something else he sometimes does not pay any attention to the fact that it is ME behind him. Sometimes I am just that thing that is in his way.

I was playing with my dog and he was getting VERY excited. He missed his ball and got my arm instead leaving a good puncture wound. I had to tell him to Out on my arm because he didn't let go right away. He did, and I told him good boy, asked him to sit, he did, I told him good boy and threw his ball for him while I went to go clean out my arm...and truly I don't even think he realized he hurt me. He whole body never changed from happy and excited and playful. This was not an act of aggression but ti still hurt like H***.

The other possibility is that you have a 15 month old intact male. At this age they are starting to test their position in the pack. Your daughter was trying to make him do something that he didn't want to do, and he let her know in dog language that he wasn't going to tolerate her pushing him. 

Either way I would start some NILIF and would advocate giving him some time without the other dogs and just the people in the house. You want to take out some of the variables and start working on his relationships with the others in the household one at a time. Pack dynamics are complicated things and every living thing in your household is a member of your pack. I would also want to start him working on some motivational obedience with just your daughter. If it was a dominance act, and she is now afraid he will now it. She needs to get "back in the saddle" if you will, and let him know that he works for her too. It's important to take all the emotion you can out of this.


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## SylvieUS (Oct 15, 2009)

I agree with everyone else, it does sound like he was still all up in "play' mode, and just treating her like a litter mate.

A few other thoughts...17 year olds aren't always the confident authority figure a GSD respects. Would your daughter be interested in taking an advanced obedience class with him?

Also, even though your guy is young for this, Shepherds are prone to hip diseases. Try touching his hips somewhat firmly when he's in a calm, easygoing state? Check for sores, cuts etc. She may have just hurt him, and that was his 'hey, stop that!' nip. Inappropriate but still better than unprovoked.

Another option would be to have the vet check his hips when you take him to have him neutered. Did we mention neutered?!  It helps soooo much, not just with population control, but with their overall disposition. If things are tough in this horrid economy, your SPCA might be able to recommend a low-cost vet, there are spay-neuter clinics, or -coughs--send me a pm coughs- caring people that sponsor spay/neuter/vet care to help in whatever small way we can.

Good luck to you,

Best,
-Yvonne


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

try not to think the worst of him....it doesn't sound like an aggressive "attack" to me. He is still young and as others say, may have been testing his place with her. It may be beneficial to find a GOOD local trainer and do some basic obedience with everyone in the family involved. Learning to read and understand your dog's body language and behavior is very important; like people, they are all different.

don't throw in the towel because of this!!!!


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## Schautzie (Jun 5, 2010)

MUZZLE...I have two shepherds and ever since they were pups I would put the muzzle on for unwanted behavior. They hate the muzzle and now when they are misbehaving all I have to say is Muzzle and the behavior stops. Plus I really think anyone with a large dog who goes out in public should have a muzzle available just in case. I have beautiful leather muzzles and they are a god send.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> MUZZLE...I have two shepherds and ever since they were pups I would put the muzzle on for unwanted behavior. They hate the muzzle and now when they are misbehaving all I have to say is Muzzle and the behavior stops. Plus I really think anyone with a large dog who goes out in public should have a muzzle available just in case. I have beautiful leather muzzles and they are a god send.


This is awful advice.

Firstly, I don't think that "anyone with a large dog who goes out in public should have a muzzle available". A well-trained, well-behaved, well-socialized dog does not need a muzzle to accompany his handler into public situations. Of course, well-trained, well-behaved, and well-socialized dogs are not born that way, they are made - by a lot of commitment and management from their owners.

If I had a dog that I would not trust in public without a muzzle, I don't think I would bring the dog in public with me. Do I think a dog can be trusted 100%? No, not necessarily, but a dog can be trusted enough to know when and in which situation the dog is safe, and what makes the dog uncomfortable and may result in a bite. As the handler, it's my job to ensure my dog is not put into those situations.

Some dogs are uncomfortable being approached by other leashed (or unleashed!) dogs when they are out walking leashed - that's understandable because the dog doesn't have a way to "get away" if the other dog turns out to be a thread. So, to avoid problems, I don't muzzle my dog - I make sure loose or leashed dogs DON'T run up to him and get into his face.

Some dogs don't like strangers' children running up and hanging all over them. (I wouldn't like that, either, but a lot of parents figure it's okay.) So, to avoid problems, I don't muzzle my dog - I watch my dog and my surroundings, and if someone's kids come up and decide to hang all over my dog without asking, they are the ones who will be told off (and their parents will get a lecture about letting children approach animals they don't know).

Secondly, I don't think a muzzle should be used "for unwanted behavior". Punishing a dog for doing something wrong does not teach the dog what correct behavior is expected, and, like you pointed out, it teaches them to "hate the muzzle" and be afraid of it. Which is probably the last thing I would want to see in my dogs, considering that a muzzle is a needed tool in some situations - like if my dog were to get injured and might snap/react from the pain, I would want to be able to muzzle him easily, not have to fight him about putting something on that *I* caused him to hate, adding to his stress level (and mine).

The muzzle should be something POSITIVE to the dog, NOT punishment or "hated".


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would first have the dog checked thoroughly by a vet, second, I agree, no one can really assess the "why's" since we weren't there. 

I will say this tho, if one of my dogs ever bit a close family member it LIVED with and was FAMILIAR with, that dog would be in deep doo doo ..

I have an aussie who demonstrates displaced aggression when he goes into his "zone", he doesn't displace it on humans tho, he can also be REALLY vocal, if say, he has a bone, and a person, (as in the household) wants him to give it up. He has never bit anyone tho.

Since this sounds like his first infraction and you describe him as an otherwise very well behaved dog, I'd really wonder 'what' set him off. Being pushed out of the way, is not a reason to "bite",,(could he possibly be in pain/have hip/back problem that you are unaware of?)

There is something going on, whether it's a medical, training, pushy male attitude (I don't want to do what you want) I don't know. I do know if he even looks at your daughter crossed eyed, he'd again, be in really deep doo doo with me.

Consult your vet, then consult your dog trainer. Good luck
Just some thoughts


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Does he normally not "want" to crate up? What do you usually do in these circumstances? Make him though he doesn't want to or acquiesce to his wishes? 

Had you already made the move to go get his treat when your daughter tried to make him go in?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I take my dogs out with me and never have a muzzle on hand. I own some. 

Now if I take two bitches somewhere, I will keep muzzles in my pocket. One day I had Babs and Whitney at the vet, and I was paying, and I heard one of them grumble and Shazaam!!!! both bitches had muzzles on within seconds. The vet techs were laughing. But a dog fight I can manage, a bitch fight is nothing I want to screw around with. 

I have heard of others using a muzzle to correct behavior. I just cannot condone it. Usually, I have heard it used when the dog is acting stupid around strange dogs, barking, lunging, etc. I would think that the muzzle puts the dog at a further disadvantage, and since most of that barking and lunging is done because the dog is fearful, muzzling the dog will exacerbate the problem.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I take my dogs out with me and never have a muzzle on hand. I own some.
> 
> Now if I take two bitches somewhere, I will keep muzzles in my pocket. One day I had Babs and Whitney at the vet, and I was paying, and I heard one of them grumble and Shazaam!!!! both bitches had muzzles on within seconds. The vet techs were laughing. But a dog fight I can manage, a bitch fight is nothing I want to screw around with.
> 
> I have heard of others using a muzzle to correct behavior. I just cannot condone it. Usually, I have heard it used when the dog is acting stupid around strange dogs, barking, lunging, etc. I would think that the muzzle puts the dog at a further disadvantage, and since most of that barking and lunging is done because the dog is fearful, muzzling the dog will exacerbate the problem.


Your message brings up a question that I have had for a pretty good while. 

It is this - do most people really think that almost all dog aggressive behavior is triggered by "fearfulness" on the part of the dog? Isn't there such a thing as just truly aggressive dogs who are aggressive because they want to be aggressive rather than some theory about how the dog is scared so figures that he/she better get the first move in?

It just doesn't seem logical that we have SO many fearful dogs who can think that way.

Just a thought/question?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> It is this - do most people really think that almost all dog aggressive behavior is triggered by "fearfulness" on the part of the dog? Isn't there such a thing as just truly aggressive dogs who are aggressive because they want to be aggressive rather than some theory about how the dog is scared so figures that he/she better get the first move in?


I think a aggressive behavior can be for many different reasons. That's why it's so hard for us to really diagnose on a web forum. Genetics for temperment. Upbringing and training during the dogs's first years. Socialization the first few years. Health issues. Stress in the home from about a million different reasons coming from humans or other dogs. On and on.

What I do know is the majority of dogs that I do see that over react and behave agressively ARE from fear reactions. Or from pain/medical reactions. 

Everyone I know that has calm, trained and socialized dogs are also those that do NOT ever have these same dogs act in an agressive manner inappropriately. Unless there is a pain reaction from something, and that's just a turn and snap not usually with contact.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

another strong vote for never using a muzzle for punishment. ever. another vote for not throwing in the towel. take some deep breaths. i am not an expert behaviorist or trainer so i'll leave that advice to others, tho i will say that i think it unwise to try and "push" a shepherd anywhere. good luck.

and see a doc and do a course of antibiotics for any dog bite which breaks the skin, *no matter how small.*


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## showshepherds4me (Jun 2, 2010)

I take my Schutzhund dogs everywhere including my un-neutered male. Do I keep a prong on them, yes but a muzzle- never. Putting a muzzle on a GSD and then taking them out in public is reinforcing the notion that GSDs are vicious. Socializing is the key. A well trained and well behaved dog shouldn't need a muzzle. And before you beat me up over the prong looking as bad as the muzzle, I have prong collar covers. 
I do agree that Shepherds hate to be pushed around.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Muzzles are no good. You need to teach and train to help your dog. Just muzzling to prevent a bite doesn't help the dog learn to NOT bite. Just frustrates cause they can't bite.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

When Bo, my mutt, mauled my arm I started insisting he be muzzled when he was being worked on at the vet's office ... not so much for their protection but for his own, if he had bitten another human I would have had him put down. My vet refused to have him muzzled when she was examing him, but did allow him to wear a muzzle when the techs were working with him. 

Both Bo and I worked very hard on controlling his temperament. I honestly feel that in his original home he was boss and his owners allowed him to misbehave - he was the tail that wagged the dog (his prior family were both elderly). When he went to the Bridge (hemangiosarcoma and all organs riddled with cancer) he was a much loved, well behaved member of our family - it was well worth the time and trouble we went thru to get him under control.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

To nickamber - I agree with MaggieRoseLee - my first thought also was a pain reaction to being pushed? Others bring up good points also - either hyped-up in drive and play-biting, having a hard time bringing the energy level down. My very-well behaved, with on-going obedience training nailed me in the butt just yesterday when I was playing with him - it hurt like **** - but none of my friends volunteered to check to see if I was bleeding  

Sorry, being silly for a sec. But seriously, as others have mentioned, what was his body language like? It could be a lot of things, and may not be outright aggression. 

Another point that someone brought up about the crate - is that habitual behaviour? 
If not, then something was clearly bothering him, or he was clearly too hyped up to think clearly. 

If it is, then you have some leadership issues that you and your daughter need to work through. I fully believe that positive reinforcement with treats is the way to go for crate training, as you are doing, but at 15 months old, your pup should NOT need to be lured into a crate with a treat in order to comply. If he often declines unless you have a treat ready and visible, then he has trained YOU, and at his age, is pushing and testing more to see how much more say he can get in how things are run. 

How is your dog around you and your 17 year old usually? How well does he obey and comply with different requests? More info on the incident and in your relationship and his relationship with the other dogs would help.


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## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

I know the angst of having a family member bitten is horrible. But steeping back and taking a breath..or two. Everyone mentioned the same things basically, but there are important components to this 1) he is not neutered. 2) shepherd bites can be really bad, so he did not intend to hurt her, he was treating her like a sibling-so I also suggest she take an active role in training. This sounds like a situation that can have a happy ending for everyone.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Muzzles are no good. .......


Actually they can be good by preventing a bite or two! While training hopefully!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

showshepherds4me said:


> ..........I do agree that Shepherds hate to be pushed around.


So what if they hate it? That certainly would not give any dog to bite his/her owner. I often make my dog do things that they may not want to do esp. at thet minute but I would be totally shocked if he decided to bite me because of that.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

..."Also, even though your guy is young for this, Shepherds are prone to hip diseases" 
Best,
-Yvonne[/quote]

My boy is only 5 months old and he is already displaying issues with his hips.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mac's Mom said:


> ..."Also, even though your guy is young for this, Shepherds are prone to hip diseases"
> Best,
> -Yvonne


My boy is only 5 months old and he is already displaying issues with his hips.[/quote]

Bummer! Have you had him examined by a competent vet?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

many times i want my dogs to do something they don't want to do right at that moment but i respect them, their bodies, and their space, and know how to "get" them to do what i want, when i want, and never, ever, "push them around". the only time i can even conceive of doing that is if their life was in danger.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

katieliz said:


> many times i want my dogs to do something they don't want to do right at that moment but i respect them, their bodies, and their space, and know how to "get" them to do what i want, when i want, and never, ever, "push them around". the only time i can even conceive of doing that is if their life was in danger.


That is certainly your right as their owner - let them not do something that you want them to do. Depends on what you actually mean be "pushing them around". Most of us cannot ever physically push an adult GSD around - can't even catch them (unless you have a leash on them) if they decide that they really don't want to be caught.

But as far as making them do something (reasonable of course) when I tell them to - of course. Giving up a bone/toy, coming when called, wait before they go out, etc. etc. of course they will do what I tell them!

Ridiculess(sp?) to even consider anything else!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

To the OP: If your dog has never exhibited any aggressive behavior before - I would really consider taking him to your vet to be checked before you consider any further actions. Non verbal quick nips could be an instant reaction to pain. But the fact that your daughter had a chance/time to say, "Mom, he's bitting me!" is confusing, could be play. 

If it were me, I'd take him in to be checked by the vet. At least at that point you'll pretty much know if you're dealing with a pain reaction or not.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I can't see that the OP posted any more.

The mention was made that the dog did not want to crate and that the owner had already decided to get a treat and renege on the crating. This perhaps not being the first time for such. The dog may have realized the leader was no longer of the energy to require crating and yet an equal in his eyes ( the kid) was trying to enforce the crating. 

Perhaps something like that was going on. Say your mum said you didn't have to go to your room for time out and yet your little brother tried to push you in there anyway. You might be more likely to give him a slug back than you would be to do such to your mum, as example of the dynamic.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that dogs actually barking, lunging, hackling, growling, etc, is mostly dogs that are fear aggressive toward other dogs. There may be other reasons, but I would not muzzle a dog for this. 

However, when I have a dog that is injured and in pain and they need to draw blood, or clean the wound, or debride the wound, or take x-rays, I suggest that they use a muzzle, or I ask if they are going to. 

I have never had any of my dogs bite in these situations and am not afraid for myself, but I would rather the vet and their staff be safe first. After they debrided Tori's ear wound, by plucking the hair that was in it, I removed the muzzle and she licked the vet tech. The muzzle did not increase her anxiety but it relieved some of mine and maybe the techs. 

There is certainly a place for muzzles. And for this reason, I would NEVER use them as a punishment.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

codmaster, you misread my post...i never "let them not do something i want them to do". and by "push them around" i mean just that, push them around. i respect my dogs and they respect me and what i ask of them. i never have to worry about "catching" them because they never run from me. we have clear and consistent expectations here, they have a large understanding of vocabulary, and combined with tone of voice they do what i ask when i ask. occasionally my alpha girl sera hesitates and, believe it or not, i use the phrase, "you better (whatever it is that i'm asking), OR IT'S NOT GONNA BE PRETTY" (have never had to prove to her what 'not gonna be pretty' consists of, lol). many people here would disagree with me, but i speak to them as if they're people and they respond really well ("punishment" when they were young consisted of withdrawal of attention/affection and occasionally isolation). the only time this has proven not to be true is when the rescues came on board. when the two alpha bitches decided they didn't like each other, my being the boss went out the window, so we have two entirely separate packs at our house. i agree strongly that there certainly is a place for muzzles, but never for punishment. didn't mean to hijack the thread, sorry.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Oh!


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