# WL, ASL and GSL stamina?



## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

I heard from someone that when they went to a Seiger show, the Working Line GSDs tired out faster than the German Show Lines when being shown.

This seems very counter intuitive to me.

Im wondering from everyone heres experience which of the lines has the most stamina for long distance trotting, and why this may be the case?

If the show lines have greater stamina, is there a reason for this? I have looked a little into conformation, and the WL shepherds seem better built for distance trotting, but maybe its because of their breeding for IPO which requires to use short bursts of energy with a lot of power instead of long distance trotting?

*puts on flameproof suit just in case*

Thanks!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I can guarantee you that it has *nothing* to do with the line and everything to do with training. Show lines are bred for shows SPECIFICALLY and are trained for gaiting around the ring SPECIFICALLY. Working lines are bred for use in other venues and probably don't have nearly as much experience in running the ring.

No dog is going to come out of the box and ready to run without conditioning. 

If you have any experience in IPO, you would understand that it takes quite a bit of endurance to hold up to a three phase trial all in one day. Let alone to show power and drive throughout..


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

My working line has run 8 miles at an 8:30 min/mile pace with me without seeming tired.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

key difference here is drive and stamina. 
two different things. a dog thats trained in a discipline will always do better than an untrained dog.

looking at the anatomical differences one would have to assume that a tip top show dog is better suited to constant gaiting. larger stride, effortless gait, correct proportions etc. 

but then again every dog is different


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the difference you are asking about can be equated to a long distance runner vs a sprinter. Different conditioning.

SL gait around the ring at an even speed. WL run as fast as they can around the blinds, during the send out, at the helper - power and bursts of speed. Different exercises.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm just a pet owner, though given time and opportunity, I'd like to do more...someday, perhaps. Anyway, I'm interested in friendly discussions of the different lines. My first GSD, Cody, was from working lines (East German and Czech). I loved him dearly, and I would have sworn I'd never get a showline. But 10 + years later, for various reasons, I decided to go with a WGSL. Honestly, I don't notice nearly as much difference between them as I thought I would--especially in terms of energy, prey drive, trainability. They seem to have about the same amount of stamina--both could run all day. 

The main difference I have noticed is that my WGSL is more social/friendly. He enjoys meeting new people, I can take him anywhere, and I don't have to be as vigilant in public or around other dogs. I don't know if he'd show any real animosity/aggression towards a helper in schutzhund. I'm pretty sure he could learn it to some extent, but I don't have any experience to make that call. My WL was much more suspicious, had more natural aggression, I think--probably would have made a better working/protection/sport dog, but he was not as fun to take places. 

All of these differences may be related more to individual personality and my training ability (or lack of training ability) than to lines. I'd like to think I know more and am a better trainer than I was 10 years ago, which may be why my WGSL seems more stable to me in public. 

Sorry if I went too far off topic!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What Alexis said, it's all training. Dogs who are being campaigned to win a Sieger show are often being conditioned 2-3 hours a day heading into a major show. It doesn't mean they have more or less drive or stamina, just that at the time they are shown, they have been very seriously conditioned for that event.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

to give you an example of the training, 
i have a 2yold male showline which i am showing on a competitive level.
Mon - Fri:
morning: 5-10km of cycling, usually do 5 min slow gait and then 3 min fast gait and then back at a slow gait.
5-10min of show craft.

Evening: uphill fetch or weight pull or manwork/tugg or swimming.

the Am is more for endurance and show training, the evening work is for muscle tone/strength and muscle streching.
Saturday: show training with other dogs
Sunday: relax day, i usually take him to a big open park and let him piss on literally every single tree in the world.
id assume that this is a fairly standard routine for most highly ranked show dogs. so as you can see he is trained to go forever, he is hardly tired after a workout these days.

im sure if you put this amount of work into any dog or breed they will be quite durable and have enough stamina


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## Wanderer (Apr 9, 2011)

Just a thought.

If you don't breed for a trait, it tends to disappear.

The GSD as originally envisioned was a multi-purpose war and police dog. In war, especially around WW I era, dogs were used to pull stretchers to medical tents, pull carts carrying heavy machineguns, and travel great distances over war-torn terrain to deliver messages tucked into their collars.

It's from this long distance message carrying that the idea of having an energy efficient ground covering gait came from. This is the concept that the show-line people have over-fixated on, and even then they didn't fixate on a true energy efficient ground covering gait, but created a stand-in 'trot around the ring' and then bred the dogs that looked the best doing that. By not breeding for brains, health, stamina, temperament, these traits fell by the wayside.

We like to think that working line or sport line dogs are 'true' GSDs. While there are some herding titled dogs, for the most part if a sport GSD doesn't do well on sheep or just is never exposed to livestock to 'prove' he can handle them, we shrug and say 'well, even though it was called a shepherd, it was really more designed as a military/police dog.

Well, pulling power and ability to carry messages through high stamina (and good mental compass?) WERE part of the original GSD, but it's not something to my knowledge that is currently tested in any real fashion. I personally think it would be fascinating to lay out a 3 mile oval track over rough terrain and see how many GSDs could circle it 10 times and see how long it would take, and be able to compare our current dogs to data on the old dogs. 

Oh Well.

Anyways, as said above, the short burst of speed is what is being used in working dogs today, not a long distance trek. While the training/exercise of the individual dog would have a huge impact on this, because we aren't actively breeding for this feature it's one that has most likely faded to varying degrees across all types, and across the various lines. It's probably a real crap-shoot if any given dog (with proper exercise) is carrying the genes/structure for high stamina I don't think you'd be any more likely to find it in show vs sport.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

i dont think the idea of a efficient ground covering gait came from delivering messages. 
More so because as a herding dog tending he will need to be able to trot around all day and not tire out.

you tend to generalize quite a bit, i do agree with part of what you say however most SV (dont know about AKC im in Aus) ethical breeders do consider the standard. watch a SV open championship. They need to pass sch test, breed survey, and show a good amount of drive as they cover a fair bit of distance around the ring. when you see the top 10 dogs compared to the last 10 there is a obvious difference in construction and drive which prevents them from gating as efficiently. 

Ethical show breeders do breed for "brains, health, stamina, temperament" but also consider anatomics and aesthetics. 
as do Workingline/sport breeders (dark pigment, big heads, stocky bodies, only they are more fit for their *intended* function)


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