# Gave in to the prong



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

DDog has started to outdo me in physical strength and was getting to be an issue with stuff he wanted and I didn't, while treats, distance etc. did not work in the real world. 
After studying the prong videos from Leerburg and others I finally decided to open up my mind and order one from Leerburg in combination with their prong collar leash that I attach to his regular nylon buckle collar as well (not their choke nylon collar).
The result: a better behaved dog, much better focus and no more rodeo-ing with him in life-pops-up-situations. I still use treats and clicker and must say that the combination of both, previously thought as incompatible, work very well.
He accepted it right away but I make sure that I am still training him as a 6 month old pup, which he is.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Was as simple as this???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WEi9BfTIc

I screwed up my first dog with a prong! But... I did not know what I was doing!! So I started to change and quit using tools at all! That cost me with inter pack aggression and my GSD! That was a call for an E collar!

But for normal situations thinking "What am I doing wrong , instead of "what's wrong with this stupid dog" has worked out well!  

So at that point I realized it's "not" about the tool it's about the user!

E collar was the tool I needed! But I guess I chose stitches in the hand instead!

So I expanded my horizions! No need for one now but if it ever happens again...!!!

Anyway I saw this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WEi9BfTIc

I was stunned!! I though no way can it be that simple?? So how did it go with the prong is it "that" simple??


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Was as simple as this???
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WEi9BfTIc
> I was stunned!! I though no way can it be that simple?? So how did it go with the prong is it "that" simple??


I think it is about the way the user uses the tool. But the tool is just as important.
The video is realistic. It had the same effect with DDog. The video would have been more powerful if they had shown the dog before the new training.

I only started yesterday but there is a major change in his behavior in the house as well. Walks are more enjoyable without the constant, yo-yoing for pulling, all the treats etc. He suddenly is consistent with everything I have been teaching him so far.
I am going to implement this with my clients if needed.


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

Prong = power steering. I found that responses were crisper and quicker. Not all my dogs needed it. When I started to use it years ago I had to be trained to use it correctly.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Went from a prong to an e-collar. Prong worked well, but since I wasn't sure exactly how to train with it and I couldn't find a local trainer that would teach me to use it, I went with a trainer that used e-collars and haven't looked back. The prong hangs on the coat hook. 

Main thing is, if it works and you don't abuse it, then use it. 

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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

HOBY said:


> Prong = power steering. I found that responses were crisper and quicker. Not all my dogs needed it. When I started to use it years ago I had to be trained to use it correctly.





jafo220 said:


> Went from a prong to an e-collar. Prong worked well, but since I wasn't sure exactly how to train with it and I couldn't find a local trainer that would teach me to use it, I went with a trainer that used e-collars and haven't looked back. The prong hangs on the coat hook.
> 
> Main thing is, if it works and you don't abuse it, then use it.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Thanks guys right there is the "secret."

Know what your doing!


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

The prong is a great tool. It protects the dog as well as the owners. We used a prong regularly in training until Molly was almost 2 yrs old. Then I gradually did without it as she became better trained. My daughter always uses the prong as she has a weak right side and can only hold the leash with one hand, she needs that control in case of an emergency. Always better to be safe than sorry. Molly never holds a grudge against my daughter for putting on the prong, but really enjoys their adventurous walks together.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Many dogs you can wean off it in a couple of months if you have trained with it properly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Many dogs you can wean off it in a couple of months if you have trained with it properly.


That would be thought and expectation! When done correctly!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If youre clear and consistent and your leash fu is strong you can have the prong off a lot faster than that. Think days or weeks not months.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

The truth as set you free.......


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

To me, the prong was a lot easier to set up than how the E-collar looked. Did the HW on how the prong should fit and that was it. She walks much better on the prong.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I used a prong for a short time on walks only. I think the e-collar is more involved because of the consistency with the level of stim and most of all the timing of the corrections. I found myself having to adjust to the dog in some cases with the e-collar.

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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The change after two days of working with the prong is amazing; it had a ripple effect on everything. he is calm in the house, leaves the old dog alone, who, by the way, is coming out of her shell now. Wish I had started this a lot sooner. I plan on using the collar for a while longer and then combine it with a martingale with a chain part to remind him and then martingale only. I have completely changed my mind on this collar.
Has anyone ever had a conversation about this with their positive-method-only-trainer?
I have him in a class like that and am planning on doing so. Am very curious what her reaction will be.


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

What is the "proper" way to use a prong that will fix all unwanted behaviours in days or weeks with a good trainer? What are the general principles of "good" prong usage vs. "bad" prong usage?


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Bob_McBob said:


> What is the "proper" way to use a prong that will fix all unwanted behaviours in days or weeks with a good trainer? What are the general principles of "good" prong usage vs. "bad" prong usage?


good marking and fair consistent corrections - basically the thing that makes all training good or bad: level of communication.


anywho good job guys. I like the e-collar more but my prong's been in a box somewhere for awhile now. It had a ripple effect here too when we first started


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

My boy is only 18 weeks, so no need for a prong just yet. If the need arises, I will use whatever tool at my disposal. It is good to see that the prong impacts every aspect of the dogs life and that your dog is better behaved in the house and calmer overall.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

eddie1976E said:


> My boy is only 18 weeks, so no need for a prong just yet. If the need arises, I will use whatever tool at my disposal. It is good to see that the prong impacts every aspect of the dogs life and that your dog is better behaved in the house and calmer overall.


With the next dog I won't wait as long. He could have benefited two months ago. He is a strong willed pup.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> The change after two days of working with the prong is amazing; it had a ripple effect on everything. he is calm in the house, leaves the old dog alone, who, by the way, is coming out of her shell now. Wish I had started this a lot sooner. I plan on using the collar for a while longer and then combine it with a martingale with a chain part to remind him and then martingale only. I have completely changed my mind on this collar.
> Has anyone ever had a conversation about this with their positive-method-only-trainer?
> I have him in a class like that and am planning on doing so. Am very curious what her reaction will be.


Youd best be wearing one of these:









Boxer Board type folks, kinda soft like there dogs!


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

Still hate prongs and choke chains. Use Gentle leader and its extremely effective. The "Thunder" line is huge waste of money.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

...they won't give yo


Skywalkers Mom said:


> Still hate prongs and choke chains. Use Gentle leader and its extremely effective. The "Thunder" line is huge waste of money.


Any tool improperly used can be abused! Having said that my personal basis is to stay clear of anyone walking a dog with "anything" other than a flash leash!

It works for me my dogs have never been "struck" by another dig in 14 years and 5 dogs.

So I will concede that Gentle leaders can work. Most likely however "most" people resorting to a GL have dogs with other issues? Usually dog reactive, good luck controlling that with a GL! For myself I would be embarrassed for myself and my dog putting that "crap" on them!

It's about the handler! If a dog "knows" you won't tolerate crap, it won't give you any!!!
Been there doing that! My first rescue day at "Boxers and Buddies" thank you shepardmom!:laugh:

I was told this dog pulls on leash use caution..OK. And of course no problems to speak off not perfect by any means but not a dog I would describe as a puller??

I hand the leash off at the end of the day and sure enough pulling away!


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> The change after two days of working with the prong is amazing; it had a ripple effect on everything. he is calm in the house, leaves the old dog alone, who, by the way, is coming out of her shell now. Wish I had started this a lot sooner. I plan on using the collar for a while longer and then combine it with a martingale with a chain part to remind him and then martingale only. I have completely changed my mind on this collar.
> Has anyone ever had a conversation about this with their positive-method-only-trainer?
> I have him in a class like that and am planning on doing so. Am very curious what her reaction will be.


I can't tell you what her reaction might be. Trainers are people to, and like people, they all have their way of looking at things. It's not that they are right or wrong, it's sometimes that their opinions override their customers situation and the customer pays the price because they refuse to give into alternate ways of training even though their customer is having trouble training. Personally, in the end, the dog pays if the customer doesn't take it upon themselves to improve the situation. 

I have had three positive trainers over the short span of 9 months. Each had their own methods of positive training. All three were dead set against using tools mentioned to help in training. Even the last trainer who was better than the other two (who had two GSD's himself) who seen what my dog was doing refused other methods. Yeh, if I had more time, more skin, more ankle joints, more money for all the clothes torn up and the back of a 19 year old kid, I would have stuck out his training class an not used the e-collar I use now. 



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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I was trying all sorts of methods of training and collars with my golden when he was little. He wouldn't care at all when we were going to a place he really liked, and he would pull so that he was hurting himself. Prong really did wonders for him, and now he's on just a plain martingale. I prefer them so my dogs can never slip out of the collar. 

However, I definitely can say that the prong has helped with my boy who is definitely a strong willed kind of guy. He is more watchful when he feels the prong tightening of his own doing, and when he does pay more attention to me, I reward it. Some days I can get away with just using the martingale with chain. However, he definitely pays better attention with the prong and again doesn't try to hang himself. e.e Puppies lol.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Within a week of the prong I once in while (once every day) walk him a few minutes on his regular flat collar in a low distraction area. He does great as if it were the prong itself. So I will continue that and like weaning off the treats, this is how I plan doing this until his appropriate behavior is ingrained.
I am using it as a training tool, not as a life long management tool. I plan continue using it in high distraction situations if I think he will have a hard time handling these.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Best part about people who know how to properly use them is that they realize it is only a tool and once the dog has gotten to where it understands things, the need for that tool goes away.  I swear once puberty hits, boy dogs seem to turn into teenage boys that get bad ideas and their nuggets say, Oh man this will be SO awesome! And then they do something that makes you want to strangle them lol. I know that is my punk's issue.

I loved that video too since it really shows how to use it correctly and really shows the idea of it being power steering. You don't need to do a lot to get the point across. Just keep hold on the leash.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Colie CVT said:


> I swear once puberty hits, boy dogs seem to turn into teenage boys that get bad ideas and their nuggets say, Oh man this will be SO awesome! And then they do something that makes you want to strangle them lol. I know that is my punk's issue.


Ha, ha, that's where we are now. But it is fun at the same time. I know there will a time (if we are lucky that he lives a long life) when I look back and will probably miss this crazy period.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Ha, ha, that's where we are now. But it is fun at the same time. I know there will a time (if we are lucky that he lives a long life) when I look back and will probably miss this crazy period.


Yeah I never saw that happen with Bullies. My GSD was one day for 7 months and then it was like "Who is this dog??!!

Trouble ensued big time!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Update: it has been 10 days since starting to work him with the prong and the results are amazing. He has become biddable in many ways: he follows my pointed direction to go somewhere, fetches reliably, controls many impulses when told so, good attention and flat ears often! 
I am a convert, not to make it the first tool but never again be afraid to use it. So for those of you who are struggling with control and the clicker and treat training doesn't work anymore, I can recommend trying the prong. I still use the clicker for teaching new behavior.


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## Tratkins (Feb 15, 2014)

So happy to read of your success. We are using a positive trainer and are implementing the prong collar this week so your success is making me look forward to it!


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We gave in and ordered Herm Sprengers for Grim and Skadi. It has been working well although I feel horribly guilty.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> We gave in and ordered Herm Sprengers for Grim and Skadi. It has been working well although I feel horribly guilty.


don't feel guilty. It's very easy to use them without hurting the dogs


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

.... 



I'm gonna be nice and tell you I felt guilty the first time I started using them too. Smitty and I got over it.

Good luck I hope you find them to be a helpful aid to your training.

I respect people who are willing to change gears when they feel the path they are on isn't working.




glowingtoadfly said:


> We gave in and ordered Herm Sprengers for Grim and Skadi. It has been working well although I feel horribly guilty.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Update: it has been 10 days since starting to work him with the prong and the results are amazing. He has become biddable in many ways: he follows my pointed direction to go somewhere, fetches reliably, controls many impulses when told so, good attention and flat ears often!
> I am a convert, not to make it the first tool but never again be afraid to use it. So for those of you who are struggling with control and the clicker and treat training doesn't work anymore, I can recommend trying the prong. I still use the clicker for teaching new behavior.



Why are flat ears desirable? I thought that was a bad thing, submitting, stress, fear. Depending on the situation. 

Am I wrong?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Why are flat ears desirable? I thought that was a bad thing, submitting, stress, fear. Depending on the situation.
> 
> Am I wrong?
> 
> ...


You have to look at his total body language. He comes up to me, when I call him in a happy wriggle and ears flat, then leans against me. This is not the official recall of course but the more informal one. And when I am seated he comes over like that too instead of being obnoxious with his mouth wide open. By no means is this dog submissive to me. We now have the relationship I have been looking for in a GSD. He is at the same level as WD when he died as a 1.5 year old so DDog and I are one year ahead of the game thanks to the prong, I am sure.
When I am walking him on the prong his ears are up right. If he had them flat, I would worry.
The progress makes it easy to get over the initial guilt .
By the way, I bought the black prong from Sprenger because I was embarrassed to use it and it isn't as obvious as the chrome color. It actually hides in the coat. Now I could have cared less as I am confident in using it with this dog.
Today a trail walk with a neighborhood buddy of his. No rude pushing or blocking anymore. :happyboogie:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> You have to look at his total body language. He comes up to me, when I call him in a happy wriggle and ears flat, then leans against me. This is not the official recall of course but the more informal one. And when I am seated he comes over like that too instead of being obnoxious with his mouth wide open. By no means is this dog submissive to me. We now have the relationship I have been looking for in a GSD. He is at the same level as WD when he died as a 1.5 year old so DDog and I are one year ahead of the game thanks to the prong, I am sure.
> When I am walking him on the prong his ears are up right. If he had them flat, I would worry.
> The progress makes it easy to get over the initial guilt .
> By the way, I bought the black prong from Sprenger because I was embarrassed to use it and it isn't as obvious as the chrome color. It actually hides in the coat. Now I could have cared less as I am confident in using it with this dog.
> Today a trail walk with a neighborhood buddy of his. No rude pushing or blocking anymore. :happyboogie:



OK, just making sure. He comes towards me with his ears flat and his head lowered and that's I'm OK with. However, sometimes his ears are a little back on the prong and that I don't like. I think that's because he's been popped for pulling and now he's expecting to be popped any minute. 

I don't like that but not sure what to do. He pulls me sometimes and it's extremely annoying. 

ETA lol I also have the black prongs, I have both large and small in black, small being a micro prong and that's what I use. 
He pays no mind to the large now

But I bought them because I like black. Couldn't care less what people think. If he lunges at them or their kids they'd line up to sue me. They should be happy I'm making sure he's under control



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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

lalachka said:


> ETA lol I also have the black prongs, I have both large and small in black, small being a micro prong and that's what I use.
> He pays no mind to the large now


If your dog is suddenly not responding to a tool then you clearly have no idea how to use it. Google leash pressure and then do yourself a favor and get a trainer. 

Btw my dog doesn't pull because he loves me.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> If your dog is suddenly not responding to a tool then you clearly have no idea how to use it. Google leash pressure and then do yourself a favor and get a trainer.
> 
> Btw my dog doesn't pull because he loves me.



It's not sudden and he does respond just not as well as he responds to the micro, I was exaggerating a bit. Is that OK?
A trainer suggested the micro prong. 

Don't go out of way to try to prove that I don't know what I'm doing, I say it in every post. 




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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

You know too many training words. Maybe your dog doesn't love you as much as you think lmao


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

lalachka said:


> It's not sudden and he does respond just not as well as he responds to the micro, I was exaggerating a bit. Is that OK?
> A trainer suggested the micro prong.
> 
> Don't go out of way to try to prove that I don't know what I'm doing, I say it in every post.
> ...


Hahaha so instead of teaching you how to use a regular prong your "trainer" tells you to get a prong intended for small dogs?? Get a new trainer (if you even have one since you exaggerate and all) 

A micro prong has a better chance of injuring a large dog who isn't well trained and is pulling. But what do I know? My dog doesn't need a prong. Love is better than a prong


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Boomer, in the past you told me that my dogs needed corrections? Are you going back on this? Or just being obtuse? Could you be more clear on how you developed this love relationship with your dog for us newbies? Thanks Meg and Gwen... My husband kind of ordered two and I'm trying it out. So far, Grim was able to meet my dad and Andrew's dad and sister today on his prong . He barked a bit at first but was quite friendly on our walks and in the house.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Boomer, in the past you told me that my dogs needed corrections? Are you going back on this? Or just being obtuse? Could you be more clear on how you developed this love relationship with your dog for us newbies? Thanks Meg and Gwen... My husband kind of ordered two and I'm trying it out. So far, Grim was able to meet my dad and Andrew's dad and sister today on his prong . He barked a bit at first but was quite friendly on our walks and in the house.


Woah, after all the debates, 30+ page long threads, freedom leashes (don't know if that's the correct name), "positive only" lectures, etc...you are now using a prong?? I would love you to start your own thread and tell those of us that watched you so adamantly defend against using it, what made you come to this decision, how it's going, and if you have (which I assume you do), trainers at your club guiding you in it's use (so many think it's some kind of "bigger club" for training), how you are using it, etc. 

I don't mean this in a snarky way at all or to pick on you. I agree with Gwen, I have a lot of respect for those that expand their knowledge and try new things. I have even MORE respect for someone who defended a certain thought/perspective so vehemently to others, who admits they are changing things up and adopting the very methods they were going to "prove wrong." I would love to hear your story. I think anyone can learn from someone who makes such an abrupt change in stance.

Anywho, hope you, Grim, and Skadi are doing well.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I will likely be updating my already - started thread soon. It's all pretty new at this point... I'm taking it day by day. My husband believes in prongs and went along with my beliefs, so I am trying it out. So far, my experiences have been OK.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> Hahaha so instead of teaching you how to use a regular prong your "trainer" tells you to get a prong intended for small dogs?? Get a new trainer (if you even have one since you exaggerate and all)
> 
> A micro prong has a better chance of injuring a large dog who isn't well trained and is pulling. But what do I know? My dog doesn't need a prong. Love is better than a prong





If you only knew whose advice you just dissed. Anyway, for the mentally challenged. The large one works, my daughter still uses it. He said he prefers the small one and I agree. 


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

lalachka said:


> If you only knew whose advice you just dissed. Anyway, for the mentally challenged. The large one works, my daughter still uses it. He said he prefers the small one and I agree.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'd be interested to know who is recommending a micro prong for a large dog? Sounds like they're super special if we're supposed to go "Oooh" that they've been dissed.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Pax8 said:


> I'd be interested to know who is recommending a micro prong for a large dog? Sounds like they're super special if we're supposed to go "Oooh" that they've been dissed.



Someone who knows more than Boomer for sure. 


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## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

The 'prong' collar us such a minor issue, to use one or not. For the most part, any 'pinching' is dog induced. I like them much more than the standard 'choke' collar.


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