# Question for schutzhund people



## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey guys i recently started teaching my dog competition commands(With no intention to compete).
My dog does the Competition "Here" perfectly, and today i started working with him on the competition "Heel".
He does great job with the focusing towards my upper body but we still got a lot of work.
Well i got two questions for you guys.
Any idea how do i teach my dog to jump a from "Here" to "Heel"? 
And the second question is how do i teach my dog to "Hold"?
(for future dumbbell retrieve, and for holding on dumbbell while doing commands like "Heel" "Sit" "Down")
:hug:


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Totally new to schutzund, but in regular ol' obedience training the only way I've found to consistently get my training dogs to grasp the swing around from 'here' to 'heel' is to teach 'pivot on an object'. We use one of those little exercise step-up platforms from the eighties (there's always one at Goodwill!) and they learn paws-on first, then how to leave their paws on and turn their butt. Then turning to heel. Then I just take away the little platform and have them pivot on a spot. Then... 'heel' from 'here'. 

As for hold... I have retarded dogs that cannot seem to grasp the concept (get it?! HAH!). The minute I learn the foolproof trick to getting them to keep it in their mouth for more than a split second I'll let you know!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm not 100% clear on what you're asking, but if I can figure it out I'll do my best to help. 

Are you asking how to get a dog to go from Front to Heel via left finish? i.e., something like this:





 
IMO the fastest/easiest way to do that without a ton of foundational work is via hand target or food luring like what's shown on that clip. Doing that big step with your foot is also helpful for many dogs because they can follow your movement to get into Heel, but for competition purposes you'd want to fade that out (a lot of trainers don't even teach it that way in the beginning to avoid needing to fade it out later).

For holding an object, I usually clicker shape for the initial hold and then for duration. That one can take a long time if you have a dog who doesn't like holding things (like, oh, both of mine...) but with patience and practice it'll come together.


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Merciel said:


> I'm not 100% clear on what you're asking, but if I can figure it out I'll do my best to help.
> 
> Are you asking how to get a dog to go from Front to Heel via left finish? i.e., something like this:
> 
> ...


My dog is not clicker trained :/ and i'd like to keep it this way, i have nothing against clickers i just don't feel like using one.





marbury said:


> Totally new to schutzund, but in regular ol' obedience training the only way I've found to consistently get my training dogs to grasp the swing around from 'here' to 'heel' is to teach 'pivot on an object'. We use one of those little exercise step-up platforms from the eighties (there's always one at Goodwill!) and they learn paws-on first, then how to leave their paws on and turn their butt. Then turning to heel. Then I just take away the little platform and have them pivot on a spot. Then... 'heel' from 'here'.
> 
> As for hold... I have retarded dogs that cannot seem to grasp the concept (get it?! HAH!). The minute I learn the foolproof trick to getting them to keep it in their mouth for more than a split second I'll let you know!


AW you're right !!! i totally forgot about the platform concept thanks :hug:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

R-a-m-b-o said:


> My dog is not clicker trained :/ and i'd like to keep it this way, i have nothing against clickers i just don't feel like using one.
> 
> So use your voice instead. Or are you against treats in training period?
> 
> ...


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Concentrate on the front position first and most importantly. The finishing to heel will confuse the dog. Bart Bellon teaches the dog to go to the left and the right so as to stop the dog anticipating the left heel command and ending up half heel half front. So from a front the dog has 2 choices. Left heel or right heel.

He uses 3 marker boards with sides. One for front, one for left heel, and one for right heel. He also sees it as 2 exercises to complete the heel. one is walking passed you and getting a food reward and the other is turning and sitting in a heel position again getting rewarded. This makes sure the dog completes the heel and sits by your side not in front of you side ways.

If you have the box it is easy for the dog to know where to go.

I do it another way but it is hard to explain. If you do actually want to ever do this in a competition I would think you should research it more as mistakes are hard to reverse. 

Some one else will probably have another easier way to explain it.

There is a video clip on youtube where he explains this concept but I can't find it

Regarding the second question, You should research the forced retrieve in a schutzhund book. It explains there why this method works and why dropping the dumbbell or chewing it is loosing major points in a competition.

There is also Felix Ho clip on youtube where he goes through this in detail, which I also can't find. 
Basically the dog is back tied and a correction is given to the dog with a prong collar so that he opens his mouth and then the dumbbell is placed in there and the correction is stopped. If the dog drops it he is corrected again. The dog probably spits it out so the process is repeated. This teaches the dog to never drop the dumb bell by teaching the dog, it turns off the correction by taking the dumb bell and not dropping it. 

This is the tricky thing about training dogs in Schutzhund and why reading up on it is so interesting.

Trainers who want to win don't leave things to chance, basically.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Concentrate on the front position first and most importantly. The finishing to heel will confuse the dog. Bart Bellon teaches the dog to go to the left and the right so as to stop the dog anticipating the left heel command and ending up half heel half front. So from a front the dog has 2 choices. Left heel or right heel.
> 
> He uses 3 marker boards with sides. One for front, one for left heel, and one for right heel. He also sees it as 2 exercises to complete the heel. one is walking passed you and getting a food reward and the other is turning and sitting in a heel position again getting rewarded. This makes sure the dog completes the heel and sits by your side not in front of you side ways.
> 
> ...


You have so much training advice!!! Why not video yourself and post it in the video section so we have an idea of what you are doing? Easier to see than read IMO


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Honestly these topics need to be researched. I am simply doing that myself. I would answer anything I can so to help people find the info.

Anyone interested should go to a seminar or pick up some books or dvds and study. 'Schutzhund theory and Training methods' is like the classic how to. 

There is one of Bart Bellon's students with a load of IPO video clips where you can read between the lines and see the nepopo system in action. It's on youtube, can't find that either  

Anyone know of them? He is of Asian decent maybe Indian or Malaysian or something(no offense any one ) He has one prosthetic leg and a black german shepherd.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I wouldn't try training a forced retrieve without a trainer's guidance (actually I wouldn't use a forced retrieve anyway because I don't like it philosophically and, on a practical level, don't want to build an aversive association with the dumbbell). Too much risk of just hurting the dog without achieving the result you want, IMO.

It's a fairly easy thing to shape and you don't have to use a clicker if you don't want, a verbal marker works just as well for that.


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## AtlanticGSD (Sep 12, 2013)

First post - but couldn't resist passing on this information relating to getting a dog to work well with a dumbell.


I found it on a long time back - so I take no credit for its method. I just formatted it into a clearer style. If the original person who put it together sees this - many thanks it worked very well with my GSD. There was no copyright attached to the original material and was presented to be used.





Here is a good treat method of teaching the dumbells...


*RULES*



QUIT WHEN YOU GET TIRED; DON’T GET UPSET WITH THE DOG
ALWAYS *REMOVE, REWARD, PRAISE* (HEREAFTER CALLED *RRP*)
NO REWARD FOR DROPPED ITEMS
NO SKIPPING STEPS; YOU WILL REGRET IT LATER
*LS* = *LEARNING SEQUENCE*: DO EACH STEP THREE TIMES, HEEL DOG IN A
 SMALL CIRCLE, DO STEP 3 TIMES, HEEL IN CIRCLE, DO STEP 3 TIMES, REST
DOG 3-5 MINUTES. (EACH STEP IS DONE A TOTAL OF 9 TIMES)


REMEMBER: *REST PERIODS* ARE JUST THAT. DO NOT PLAY WITH THE DOG.
THE DOG MUST DO EACH STEP PROPERLY (CORRECTLY 9 TIMES) BEFOREADVANCING TO ANOTHER STEP.
 

IF THE DOG REFUSES TO TAKE THE DUMBELL, IT IS FORCED BY BRUSHING THE TEETH OR, IF NEEDED, FORCING THE JAWS OPEN, THEN *RRP*, REPEAT THE EXERCISE.
 

THREE REFUSALS IN A ROW IS REGRESSION. WHEN YOUR DOG REGRESSES (HE WILL), REST 10 MINUTES AND BEGIN 2 STEPS BACK.
 

THE DUMBELL IS PRESENTED FROM ABOVE AND THE COMMAND TO RETRIEVE IS GIVEN AS THE DUMBELL IS EVEN WITH THE DOG’S EYES ( DUMBBELL ENDS
 UP TOUCHING MUZZLE, UNDER NOSE) *UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED*.

*INTRODUCTION TO THE DOWEL*
* IT SHOULD BE THE SIZE OF THE BAR ON THE DUMBBELL
THIS HOMEWORK IS TO BE DONE BEFORE YOU START THE DUMBBELL; I DO THIS DURING
THE WEEK BEFORE. THE DOG SHOULD BE IN ADVANCED NOVICE OR PRE-OPEN TRAINING.

*EQUIPMENT:*


1 EVEN-TEMPERED TRAINER
1 HUNGRY DOG – FASTED 12 HOURS
1 DOWEL – LONG ENOUGH TO EXTEND JUST SLIGHTLY EITHER SIDE OF MUZZLE
1 BIG BOWL OF GOODIES. CUT INTO ¼” CUBES
1 CHAIR
1 UNINTERUPTED BLOCK OF TIME – 15 MINUTES TO 2 HOURS


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## AtlanticGSD (Sep 12, 2013)

and the rest of the material!





*THE TAKE* 
*STEP1*OG AT HEEL/SIT; NO LEASH; GOODIE IN RIGHT HAND, DOWEL IN LEFT HAND


PRESENT DOWEL FROM ABOVE DOG’S EYE LEVEL. COMMAND *TAKE* AS DOWEL PASSES EYE LEVEL.
 

IF NECESSARY, FORCE THE DOWEL INTO MOUTH (BY BRUSHING TEETH OR OPEN JAWS)
IMMEDIATELY RRP-LS
 *STEP 2*: DOG, GOODIES, ETC. SAME AS STEP 1


PRESENT DOWEL, COMMAND *TAKE*
HOLD ONTO END OF DOWEL, OR HOLD MOUTH *GENTLY* SHUT, WAIT 5 SECONDS, RRP –LS.
 *THE HOLD*
*STEP 1*: CHAIR WITH GOODIES IN FRONT OF HANDLER AND DOG, AT ARM’S LENGTH, DOG IN HEEL/SIT


PRESENT DOWEL, COMMAND *TAKE*
WITH HAND UNDER CHIN (IF NECESSARY) TO PREVENT DROP, COMMAND *HOLD*
REACH TO CHAIR, GRAB GOODIE, RRP – LS
 
*ANY TIME THE DOWEL IS DROPPED, PUT THE GOODIE BACK, PRESENT THE DOWEL AGAIN, AND BE QUICK ABOUT THE GOODIE!!*

*STEP 2*: CHAIR WITH GOODIES ABOUT 1 STEP IN FRONT OF HANDLER & DOG; DOG IN HEEL/SIT.


PRESENT DOWEL, COMMAND *TAKE*
(IF NEEDED) COMMMAND *HOLD*, COMMAND *STAY*, STEP TO CHAIR, RETURN WITH GOODIE, RRP – LS.
 *STEP 3*: CHAIR WITH GOODIES ABOUT 3 STEP AWAY; DOG IN HEEL/SIT


PRESENT DOWEL; COMMAND *TAKE* 
COMMAND *STAY*, STEP TO CHAIR, MOVE IT 1 STEP FURTHER AWAY, RETURN WITH GOODIE, RRP – LS.
 *THE CARRY*
*STEP 1*: CHAIR ABOUT 20-30 FEET AWAY ( OR 2 CHAIRS 30 FT. APART SAVES STEPS – USE 
ONLY 1 GOODIE BOWL AND CARRY IT BACK AND FORTH)


PRESENT DOWEL, COMMAND *TAKE*
COMMAND *STAY*, WALK TO CHAIR, PICK UP GOODIE, TURN TO FACE DOG, COMMAND *COME*. RRP –LS. 
 *YOU ARE WORKING ONLY ON THE HOLD – CARRY. DO NOT CORRECT THE DOG FOR OTHER IMPERFECTIONS AT THIS TIME. ENCOURAGE THE DOG WITH EXTRA COMMANDS AND PRAISE*.
*STEP 2*: GOODIES IN POCKET. IF YOU HAVE EQUOPMENT, JUMP TRAINING RING; HIGH 
JUMP AT 8”, BAR JUMP AT 8”, 2 BOARDS BACK TO BACK; JUMPS CENTERED ON 3 OF THE 4 SIDES OF RING. 
* HEEL 5-10 PACES; WHILE MOVING COMMAND *TAKE*
* AFTER 3-8 PACES, HALT, RRP. IF DOG ENCOUNTERS JUMP, USE JUMP COMMAND, IF DOG DROPS DOWEL, PICK IT UP, HALT, RE-PRESENT DOWEL, RRP –LS


IF DOG DROPS DOWEL, PICK IT UP, HALT, RE-PRESENT DOWEL, RRP –LS.

*PAGE 2 *
*PLEASE NOTICE THE LACK OF NEGATIVE TRAINING. A CORRECTION IS HAVING TO DO IT OVER AGAIN WITH HELP TO PREVENT ERROR SO THE DOG CAN BE REWARDED FOR “HIS/HER” SUCCESS. THIS WILL PREVAIL THROUGHOUT THIS TRAINING METHOD. THE DOG WORKS FOR THE REWARD, BUT LOVES THE TRAINING BECAUSE HE IS NOT PUNISHED AND HE ALWAYS SUCCEEDS.*

*YOU ARE NOW READY TO START WITH THE DUMBBELL*

YOU ARE NOW READY TO EMBARK ON THIS NEW TRAINING PROGRAM. SET YOUR MIND FOR THE POSITIVE APPROACH! YOUR DOG HAS EXPERIENCED THE RETRIEVE COMMAND, THE HOLD COMMAND., AND THE LEARNING SEQUENCE. FAST THE DOG FOR 12 HOURS, AND (IF POSSIBLE) ALLOW THE DOG ABOUT AN HOUR TO MEDITATE IN SILENCE AND SOLITUDE BEFORE THE BEGINNING THE SESSION. HE SHOULD CONSIDER HOW NICE IT IS TO BE WITH YOU, TO TRAIN WITH YOU, TO BE PRAISED BY YOU, AND ALSO THAT HE’S HUNGRY. GET YOUR DUMBBELLS AND GET GOING!!!!!

*DUMBBELLS RETRIEVE TRAINING*

*TAKE*: PRESENT DUMBBELL, COMAND *TAKE *


DOG TAKES DUMBBELL IN MOUTH, TRAINER HOLD, *RRP, LS*
DOG TAKES DUMBBELL, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
 
*REACH: *PRESENT DUMBBELLS, COMMAND *TAKE*


DOG REACHES 1” IN FRONT OF NOSE, TRAINER HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES 1”, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES TO COLLAR HEIGHT, TRAINER HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES TO COLLAR HEIGHT, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES TO ELBOW HEIGHT, TRAINER HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES TO ELBOW HEIGHT, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES TO FLOOR (DO NOT TAKE HANDS OFF), TRAINER HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES TO FLOOR, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
 
*HOLD: *GOODIES 6 FEET FROM TRAINER; DOG MAY SIT OR STAND; PRESENT DUMBBELL, 
COMMAND *TAKE*.


DOG REACHES 1”, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES COLLAR HEIGHT, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES ELBOW HEIGHT, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
DOG REACHES TO FLOOR*, *DOG HOLDS*, RRP, LS*
TRAINER HOLDS ONE END OF DUMBBELL ON FLOOR, DOG HOLDS*, RRP, LS*
TRAINER PLACES DUMBBELL ON FLOOR, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
 
*PLACE RETRIEVE: *GOODIES BEHIND TRAINER, DOG STANDS…


TRAINER PLACES DUMBBELL ON FLOOR AND THEN COMMANDS; DOG HOLDS, 
 *RRP, LS*


TRAINER TAKES 1 STEP, PLACES DUMBELL ON FLOOR, *TAKE*, DOG HOLDS, *RRP, LS*
TRAINER TAKES 1 STEP, PLACES DUMBBELL, *TAKE*, TAKES 2 STEPS BACKWARDS
 DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS* 


TRAINER TAKES 1 STEP, PLACES DUMBBELL, 1 STEP BACK TO DOG, *TAKE*, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
 









TRAINER TAKES 2 STEPS, PLACES DUMBBELL, 2 STEP BACK TO DOG*, TAKE*, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
TRAINER TAKES 3 STEPS, PLACES DUMBBELL, 3 STEPS BACK TO DOG, *TAKE*, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
 
*IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT THE DOG BE PERFORMING SUCCESSFULLY ON ALL OF THE STEPS UP TO THIS POINT BEFORE YOU CONTINUE. REMEMBER – DON’T SKIP ANY OF THE STEPS, DO THE ENITIRE LEARNING SEQUENCE “LS” PROPERLY BEFORE PROGRESSING TO THE NEXT STEP. IF THE DOG REGRESSES, DROP BACK 2 STEPS*. *BE PATIENT!!*

*RETRIEVE: *GOODIES BEHIND TRAINER, DOG STANDS, COMMAND *TAKE* WHILE 
DUMBBELL IS MOVING. 


TRAINER SLIDES DUMBBELL OUT 3 FEET ON FLOOR, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
TRAINER SLIDES DUMBBELL OUT 6 FEET ON FLOOR, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
TRAINER SLIDES DUMBBELL OUT 9 FEET ON FLOOR, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
TRAINER TOSSES DUMBBELL OUT 3 FEET ON FLOOR, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
TRAINER TOSSES DUMBBELL OUT 6 FEET ON FLOOR, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
TRAINER TOSSES DUMBBELL OUT 9 FEET ON FLOOR, DOG CARRIES, *RRP, LS*
 
*THE REAL THING*: GOODIES BEHIND TRAINER, DOG SITS….


RESTRAIN DOG BY HOLDING COLLAR, COMMAND *STAY*, TOSS DUMBBELL, 9 FEET
 (INCREASE BY 1 FOOT EACH TIME) COMMAND *TAKE*, DOG RETRIEVES, *RRP, LS* 


COMMAND *STAY, *TOSS DUMBBELL 9 FEET (INCREASE 1 FOOT EACH TIME), COMMAND *TAKE*, DOG RETRIEVES, *RRP, LS*
 
*THE “AFTER: RULES:*
ALWAYS OFFER THE DOG HIS/HER REGULAR DIET AFTER TRAINING SESSIONS. FOR THE HARD CORE, SKIP A DAY AFTER 3 TRAINING SESSIONS. KEEP IN MIND THAT NEGATIVE CORRECTIONS ARE *NOT TO BE USED* UNTIL THE DOG KNOWS WHAT HE/SHE IS TO DO AND REFUSES (UNTIL HE/SHE HAS PERFORMED THE COMMAND RELIABLY FOR OVER A WEEK).


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

AtlanticGSD said:


> and the rest of the material!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks you very much for sharing this method with us, YOU ROCK!!!
i'm looking forward to try this method on my dog


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## AtlanticGSD (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi R-a-m-b-o,

Glad that you consider the info. useful.
My GSD has good article indication and would bring back items to me when searching for them in the house.
But outside with a dumbell - no interest. 
In fact - inside she refused to take and hold with quite a bit of vigor - an active spitter! But we got over that using the protocol indicated.
She now retrieves very well - not only the dumbell but most objects that are thrown (the odd one still gets a refusal!)
Until I get that sorted, I do not want to go onto area searches where the objects to be retrieved may be any "safe" shape or material. 
Once we are good for that, search technique and time will be the prime objective.
AtlanticGSD


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

I know you said you don't want to use a clicker (can't blame you, it's one more thing you have to think about!) but like others have said, you can use the same methods without a clicker. Some people make a click with their mouth, but I don't even do that, I'll just use "Ok" instead. It's really fun because the dog is thinking about what it can do to earn the reward, so you get a lot of enthusiasm for training. I'm just looking into raising a SchH puppy myself, and someone posted this site. I looked up the section where they teach retrieve for you, if you're interested! They post a lot of videos, which I personally find super helpful. 
Schutzhund-Training.com - Clicker Retrieve


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Does your dog have any drive to retrieve? I would work on that before you teach the hold. If he likes to go out for a ball, use that in a hallway or similar type of area where he has no option but to bring the ball back to you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Regarding the second question, You should research the forced retrieve in a schutzhund book. It explains there why this method works and why dropping the dumbbell or chewing it is loosing major points in a competition.


I would never recommend a forced retrieve to a novice trainer. It is not something one can learn from a book. It requires a very unemotional handler and a lot of skill. When done wrong it can result in a very ugly retrieve that is difficult, if not impossible, to repair. This is why many people either get help with the FR or have someone else do it for them. 

A shaped retrieve takes longer and sometimes if done wrong will never be reliable, but at least there are other options if it is messed up.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I would never recommend a forced retrieve to a novice trainer. It is not something one can learn from a book.


The question was regarding Schutzhund. If the question was how do i get my pet dog to hold a stick I wouldn't have suggested the technique.

Anybody can pick up the book and learn the technique. 

The good thing about the forum is people can discuss these techniques and the alternatives.


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