# Titled Parents?



## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

Hi Everyone - I have a few more questions. 

I am looking for a GSD pup or older pup as a pet. Not sure yet if I am going to go working or west show lines. I found a west show line breeder I really like here in Illinois. 

For working lines should I just walk away if the parents are not titled? Isnt the whole point of shutzhund to ensure sound nerves and temperament before breeding? So arent people breeding non titled dogs technically not dueing their due diligence before breeding?

Alot of breeders say they sent dog to Europe to be titled. What does that mean? Dont the breeders title their own dogs?

Sorry for the questions but I am finding the whole process of trying to find a reputable breeder mind numbing!!!!

Thanks,

Brian

As a side I had a working line GSD for 10 years but I think my breeder has resorted to becoming a BYB so wont go back there.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

many breeders - esp show line breeders - send dogs overseas where titles are slammed on the dog quickly, esp females, and the female comes back bred to a big name male and the litter pays for the title....

most working line breeders on this board train and title their own dogs, buy an occassional female already titled or a youngster to add to their programs....

while I thoroughly believe in working my females - with my club 200+ miles away, I will work them, but not wait until they are 6 years old to breed one ever again...younger females need to be bred and will keep working on titles...

Lee


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I agree, Wolfstraum. I bought my puppy from a titled male and an untitled female, but I saw videos of the female working and really trusted my breeder that he knew she was breed worthy. Not all breeders are honest, though, so I could see why titles are the "say all" for some buyers. Not all breed worthy dogs are titled, and not all titled dogs are breed worthy.....


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

There are working line breeders that will send dogs to Europe to be titled. If they themselves live in a remote area, it could be a full time job to travel to training and then to trials regularly enough to get the dog titles. Whereas in Europe, Germany in particular, finding a club and trials is like finding a CVS drugstore (ok, I'm exaggerating a bit). One of the guys we had over here a few years back told us that he walks to his club every evening after work and passes another club on the way! Getting a dog koerklassed is also less daunting in Europe, he said there were 3-4 koermeisters in his club alone! 
Personally I want a dog from titled parents, but I could be considered a snob, or maybe it's just time and experience. I like to hedge my bets and think I have a better chance of knowing what I may end up with if I get a pup from titled and KkL parents. 

Annette


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

all very good points by everyone. 

The most important thing to do is know what you want, and learn how to find it in a dog. Even if a dog has all of the titles and the kkl1, that dog may not be the type of dog you want to train. There are different lines, with different attributes that can make a dog harder or easier for an individual to train. 
Once you find that out, you look for those traits in the dogs you want. 

Just because a working line, or a showline dog does not have titles does not mean the dog is not capable of such. Sure you could go with a breeder who is breeding dogs with those things already, but sometimes things like time constraints, contracts, driving time or cost of shipping, can also be a large influence in how realistic it is to get a dog from somewhere.

so if you find a dog from a line you like, who isn't titled but is working towards them, and the other parent does have titles and is what you want, don't let the lack of title stop you.
Watch the parent without the title work, ask about the dog, meet the dog, learn everything you can. If the dog has all of the capabilities but its simply inexperience in training that they are currently working on, then go for it. 


As for sending dogs overseas or even off somewhere in their country for training. Keep in mind not everyone is blessed with a close training club. So sometimes they will put the foundation work on their dogs then send them off to finish off what they couldn't teach and earn the title and get them back.
Now sometimes the sending off to training is their only way of earning a title because the dog doesn't have the capabilities but someone is too kennel blind to wash it from their program so they paper title it. 

so its very important to watch the sire and dam of a litter you are considering work, and meet them to learn their temperament. If at all possible meet the dogs on a ground they are not used to. a park or something of the sort. Dogs can show a lot of confidence on their home territory and when taken out show their true colors.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, there are untitled dogs that I would take a puppy from and titled ones that I wouldn't. I care mostly about who is doing the breeding and what are their skills in assessing working strength and weaknesses, their knowledge of the bloodlines, their previous experience with breeding them and their history of production.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Samba said:


> Well, there are untitled dogs that I would take a puppy from and titled ones that I wouldn't. I care mostly about who is doing the breeding and what are their skills in assessing working strength and weaknesses, their knowledge of the bloodlines, their previous experience with breeding them and their history of production.


:thumbup:


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

Samba said:


> Well, there are untitled dogs that I would take a puppy from and titled ones that I wouldn't. I care mostly about who is doing the breeding and what are their skills in assessing working strength and weaknesses, their knowledge of the bloodlines, their previous experience with breeding them and their history of production.


Hi Everyone - Thanks for the responses. You say you care mostly who is doing the breeding and if you are an experienced GSD person and "in the know" or part of the circuit you can make informed decisions but what about us that are not in the know? How can we make an informed decision? I have read the buying a puppy threads and how to pick out a good breeder and if I follow the criteria none of the breeders I have dealt with or spoken to are "responsible".


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the more you learn the more numb you'll become.  i say make it easy on
yourself. find a reputable breeder with titled dogs. i think you get a
little insurance on your pup if the parents are titled. decide on what you want, 
a show line or a working line and let me name your pup. 
good luck with the new pup.



BrianB said:


> Sorry for the questions but I am finding the whole process of trying to find a reputable breeder mind numbing!!!!


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

Can someone provide me a breeder in Illinois, southern Wisconsin, Northern IN that meets the following cirteria for a responsible breeder:

RESPONSIBLE OR BYB ?

I would like to be able to drive and visit the breeder and puppies before I commit and I dont want to have to fly somewhere to do this. If there isnt a responsible breeder within 5 hours of Chicago I dont think one exists.....

Thanks for the help!

Brian


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

Here's one of the last pictures of my buddy and my daughter. She would sit there and talk to him like he was her best friend and he would just sit there and listen.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Brian,
There are many responsible, respectable breeders that title AND send their dogs to "finish" their titles in Germany. MANY responsible breeders that BUY titled dogs for breeding, from both WGSLs & WL's.
NO ONE breeder will fill "every-one's" version or opinion, of what is correct or incorrect.
Being a breeder myself,.....I can relate to "both" sides of the spectrum.
We have titled....AND we send dogs to Germany to "finish" titles.
BUT ALL dogs have foundation done by us....before they ever leave to Europe.
We also have a couple of females that we have bred "before" sending them to "complete" their titles in Germany.....these females are over 3yrs old, and "before" investing additional finances.....we want to make sure that we have offspring from them. *They are the same females, that we have kept to continue our future with.*....not just females to produce a litter of pups.
You will find that there are very good breeders of both titled and un-titled dogs.....the thought or opinion that breeding from only "titled" dogs (whether titled by the breeder or not) constitutes a "good" breeder....is _actually_ ignorant & uneducated. 
After many years in breeding...this is JMHO.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

It's not so much that the parents MUST be titled as much as the REASON we recommend some type of title. So if you find a great breeder who also gets that temperament and health (with the fact that titles help SHOW this) are key to great puppies rather than just breeding for 'cute' and the $$$$

Did you get a chance to click on this yet? ----> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Brian,
> You will find that there are very good breeders of both titled and un-titled dogs.....*the thought or opinion that breeding from only "titled" dogs (whether titled by the breeder or not) constitutes a "good" breeder....is actually ignorant & uneducated. *
> After many years in breeding...this is JMHO.


Robin - Thanks for the response but isnt the point of titling the dog to "prove" the dog is of sound temperament and workability? Just hard for the "lay persn" looking in from the outside to determine who is reputable.

MaggieRoseLee - I read the threads and if I follow them I think I am going to be searching for a long time......Do you have a breeder that meets those criteria?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, it is difficult without getting to know people and the GSD world to understand all there is breeding and production. I think you can find some good breeders. Look at the breeders accomplishments with their dogs. What do they do with German Shepherds beyond breeding? What have dogs they produced done? How long have they dealt with the lines? 

Just because two dogs have titles does not mean they are a good breeding combination. 

I sent you a pm.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Brian....yes...at one time it was.....as for today....._many "titled" dogs aren't worth_ _their weight in dog food. _An unsound dog *before* titles is still an unsound dog *AFTER* titles.
It is very hard for the "lay person"...absolutely. 
*I'm so happy that I am not starting "new" in this breed and sport in today's time.....it would make my head spin with all the "red flag, BYB, responsible breeder, WL vs SL " topics......*


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There are many titled dogs - show and work - who IMO are less than breeding caliber - and yes, titles are a recognized breeding criteria for SV type breeding! My Kyra's dam was not titled, her sire was and I did Sch3 on her quite a few times...she produced LE dogs and titled dogs...I waited until Csabre was nearly 6 to do my first litter - and had all the prerequisites but the schutzhund title due to personal/ financial issues - I did title her within a few months, but I will not do that again. I should have bred her at 3 at least!!! I have a young female who I have trained sporadically and I will breed her next fall probably at 3...titles or not...she lives with friends who "puppy napped" her...and logistics are tough to get consistant training done with her.

That said - look at the big picture of the untitled half of the breeding....are the untitled dogs parents titled? siblings? hips and elbows done? is the dog training for some sport? Has the breeder a history of titling dogs or just has a bunch of dogs that are untitled and breeding untitled dams for selling lots of pups for color or some fashion/niche??? How many litters have they bred? how many are from titled/untitled dams??? 

IMO - it is more the overall situation than a simple blanket statement.

Lee


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Lee....I agree !


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I have a huge breeder-crush on my breeders, Bill and Jen. They were everything I wanted in a breeder - the pup I have from them is my DREAM DOG. They are in Illinois, so check them out:

:: BILL KULLA DOG TRAINING ::


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

I still remember getting scolded by my vet when I got my last dog. I bought from a breeder in the chcago area that offered schutzhund type training and before I bought I went to a few classes and met people with his dogs and even two separate police K9 officers were there with their dogs so I figured I met 20-30 of his references. Everyone said his dogs were great. After a few visits I believe the breeder sensed we were still nervous about determining if he was reputable and he went to the barn, grabbed a crate and some food and said take the puppy for 3 weeks. If you dont like him or his temperment bring him back, if you do come back and pay me. I thought this was unbelievable and I was feeling pretty good, I figured he had to be pretty confident in his dogs. The vet scolded me because I didnt have copies of the OFA certifications of parents, bloodlines to prove parents and ancestors were titled and hip certified, I didnt meet both parents and I told the vet the breeder had 8 german shepherds (she said this was a sign of a backyard breeder). Well I ended up buying the dog and he was great, he did develop a hitch in his 1 hind leg when he was 7 years old but never had any other medical problems in 10 years. I would go back to the breeder but I think he is a byb now because he always has puppies and doesnt have OFAs and titles for all dogs. I didnt take him to the vet until after I paid for him but it worked out.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

BrianB said:


> I still remember getting scolded by my vet when I got my last dog. I bought from a breeder in the chcago area that offered schutzhund type training and before I bought I went to a few classes and met people with his dogs and even two separate police K9 officers were there with their dogs so I figured I met 20-30 of his references. Everyone said his dogs were great. After a few visits I believe the breeder sensed we were still nervous about determining if he was reputable and he went to the barn, grabbed a crate and some food and said take the puppy for 3 weeks. If you dont like him or his temperment bring him back, if you do come back and pay me. I thought this was unbelievable and I was feeling pretty good, I figured he had to be pretty confident in his dogs. The vet scolded me because I didnt have copies of the OFA certifications of parents, bloodlines to prove parents and ancestors were titled and hip certified, I didnt meet both parents and I told the vet the breeder had 8 german shepherds (she said this was a sign of a backyard breeder). Well I ended up buying the dog and he was great, he did develop a hitch in his 1 hind leg when he was 7 years old but never had any other medical problems in 10 years. I would go back to the breeder but I think he is a byb now because he always has puppies and doesnt have OFAs and titles for all dogs.......


Very interesting! Again, I highly recommend Bill Kulla - you won't be disappointed. His dogs are phenomenal. He has his own Schutzhund club as well, so you can do more than meet the parents - but see them working!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> You will find that there are very good breeders of both titled and un-titled dogs.....the thought or opinion that breeding from only "titled" dogs (whether titled by the breeder or not) constitutes a "good" breeder....is actually ignorant & uneducated.
> After many years in breeding...this is JMHO.


I don't know as that's entirely true. I'm searching for a good breeder of Dachshunds right now and while many breeders originally bought their breeding stock from AKC parents, they themselves have done nothing in the way of showing or titling any of their dogs. Does that mean it's okay to buy a male and female from them and start breeding them and not worry about titles of any sort?
Because that's all I'm finding for that breed, at least here in WA. There's a select few, and I mean very few, who are actually doing anything to speak of with their dogs.

And a new breeder, just starting out - is it okay for them to not get titles before jumping in with both feet and breeding their dog(s)?


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## Maraccz (Sep 3, 2005)

I can't be happier with my current working dog. He is from titled parents, OFA'd or A stamped parents. I got to meet both parents & see them work (Major plus for me) and I got support from Molly @ Eichenluft and Kandi @ Rokanhaus (Who owned the Sire and Bitch respectively). Both are quality breeders and they as well as others have taught me a lot. I will never buy another dog from untitled parents.
My boy LOVES to work his lack of Sch titles are my fault & life issues not his lack of ability. He is also a therapy dog, agility dog and my 41/2 year old daughters best friend.


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I don't know as that's entirely true. I'm searching for a good breeder of Dachshunds right now and while many breeders originally bought their breeding stock from AKC parents, they themselves have done nothing in the way of showing or titling any of their dogs. Does that mean it's okay to buy a male and female from them and start breeding them and not worry about titles of any sort?
> Because that's all I'm finding for that breed, at least here in WA. There's a select few, and I mean very few, who are actually doing anything to speak of with their dogs.
> 
> And a new breeder, just starting out - is it okay for them to not get titles before jumping in with both feet and breeding their dog(s)?


I would think that intent might have a lot to do with things at that point. I know intent does nothing for the prospective buyer, that anyone can just tell someone looking for a puppy that they 'intend' to do x, y and z with their dogs and be lying through their teeth and no one would be the wiser until long after it even mattered. But as for the breeder themselves, within their own minds:
Do they intend to eventually title the original stock and are fairly sure that the dog can obtain the title? As Robin said: the dog is the same dog after the title as it was before.
Do they intend to work with and title the progeny that are produced with their own kennel name? 

If they just intend to buy the dogs and ride the ancestors' coattails with no more intention to title anything forthcoming, then no, to me, that is not okay.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BrianB said:


> After a few visits I believe the breeder sensed we were still nervous about determining if he was reputable and he went to the barn, grabbed a crate and some food and said take the puppy for 3 weeks. If you dont like him or his temperment bring him back, if you do come back and pay me.


Actually, my pup's breeder did the same thing, and she is one of the reputable ones. So I don't think that necessarily means the breeder was afraid of you bolting, maybe after getting to know you a little, he just felt this pup was a good match for you?



> The vet scolded me because I didnt have copies of the OFA certifications of parents, bloodlines to prove parents and ancestors were titled and hip certified, I didnt meet both parents and I told the vet the breeder had 8 german shepherds (she said this was a sign of a backyard breeder). Well I ended up buying the dog and he was great, he did develop a hitch in his 1 hind leg when he was 7 years old but never had any other medical problems in 10 years.


Well, I'd say it all worked out okay, despite your and the vet's misgivings--you may have gotten lucky, or the breeder may have been doing something right. Hard to say without knowing the breeder. Was there no pedigree/OFA information on the pup, or did you simply not see it before buying? What makes you say that he's turned into a BYB since you last saw him?


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

As most of us have stated before: Titles are not the be all end all. Some fantastic dogs out there that have not been bred, and have titles. Some not so great dogs out there with titles that got them with alot of hard work from the handler, just by the skin of their teeth and have temperament issues. So you have to look at the whole picture. Most important question, why are you breeding these particular dogs together?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

The OP said he was looking for a pet, so why do any titles matter? I have seen many people with "pet needs" buy way too much dog for their goals and home situations and it typically results in a re-home or just misery.

My breeding experience comes from the bird-dog side, but it is exactly the same issue. Have you ever seen a field-bred Shorthair that isn't getting 3 hours of hard running in a house with small kids?

It is typically a younger guy married or not, late 20's - late 30's looking for too much function and not enough form.


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

sable123 said:


> The OP said he was looking for a pet, so why do any titles matter? I have seen many people with "pet needs" buy way too much dog for their goals and home situations and it typically results in a re-home or just misery.
> 
> My breeding experience comes from the bird-dog side, but it is exactly the same issue. Have you ever seen a field-bred Shorthair that isn't getting 3 hours of hard running in a house with small kids?
> 
> It is typically a younger guy married or not, late 20's - late 30's looking for too much function and not enough form.


I know that people's definitions of what constitutes a 'title' differs, but I would say that even for a pet, some form of a temperament test title should be bare minimum. A TT, BH or something along those lines at bare minimum. Even a consistent history of CGCs in the parentage and siblings. Just a little more assurance that you'd be getting a companion who is by default and separate from his or her environment: sound in the head.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Huerta Hof, Alta Tollhaus, Kirschenwald. My top 3 picks. It Is hard to find the right breeder, lots of time and effort. 

Goodluck to you.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I have bought a WL puppy from a breeder, and the father of my puppy is not a titled dog. My young girl is everything that I could want in a WL dog.....her father being untitled is merely a technicality.
I have also bought puppies from titled parents (both WL & SL) that turned out to be *nothing* that I would want or breed from in a GSD.
To me......titles are "icing" on a great cake.....but if the cake is crap....no amount of "icing" is going to change the fact.
Finding breeders that actively "work" their dogs in venues...OR produce dogs that work in venues, would be a good starting place to research.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

sable123 said:


> The OP said he was looking for a pet, so why do any titles matter? I have seen many people with "pet needs" buy way too much dog for their goals and home situations and it typically results in a re-home or just misery.
> 
> My breeding experience comes from the bird-dog side, but it is exactly the same issue. Have you ever seen a field-bred Shorthair that isn't getting 3 hours of hard running in a house with small kids?
> 
> It is typically a younger guy married or not, late 20's - late 30's looking for too much function and not enough form.



That is the whole point...a knowledgeable responsible breeder will assess his needs and match the most compatible pup with them...if he does not appear to be a good match with their litter they can send him elsewhere - I do that ALL THE TIME! Probably 5 out of 6 people I refer elsewhere quickly...and alot to rescue for adult dogs as well.

Why should someone who wants "just a pet" get a poorly bred pup out of non tested parentage from a "breeder" who has little knowledge of the breed??? Isn't the companion home where nerve strength and stability is needed more than any sport!!!???!

I pass on alot of stud dogs due to match ups which contain dogs ***I**** personally consider a higher risk than necessary for questionable aspects of personality....because I do not want to risk even one poor tempered puppy if I can avoid....

Lee


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Titles matter in a sense of having a sound mind. How does the dog respond to training? How does the dog handle stressful situations (i.e. doing a routine at a trial)? How does the dog handle social situations (i.e. training classes with other people and dogs)? Is the dog reactive to other dogs, aggressive (this can be passed on genetically)? What traits does the parent possess that you wish to pass on (i.e. biddability) Knowing what traits your dog possesses, is how you plan your breeding program. How do you otherwise determine these traits without training? How do you prove the training without trialing?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Discoetheque said:


> I know that people's definitions of what constitutes a 'title' differs, but I would say that even for a pet, some form of a temperament test title should be bare minimum. A TT, BH or something along those lines at bare minimum. Even a consistent history of CGCs in the parentage and siblings. Just a little more assurance that you'd be getting a companion who is by default and separate from his or her environment: sound in the head.


100% agree, I put temperament, health, looks etc. in the "form" column rightly or wrongly. I define "function" pretty narrowly. Ugly, ill-tempered, and unhealthy dogs can still do their jobs.

I got a different vibe from the original post.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

dawnandjr said:


> Titles matter in a sense of having a sound mind. How does the dog respond to training? How does the dog handle stressful situations (i.e. doing a routine at a trial)? How does the dog handle social situations (i.e. training classes with other people and dogs)? Is the dog reactive to other dogs, aggressive (this can be passed on genetically)? What traits does the parent possess that you wish to pass on (i.e. biddability) Knowing what traits your dog possesses, is how you plan your breeding program. How do you otherwise determine these traits without training? How do you prove the training without trialing?


Dog trials are human constructs. Breeding for the "construct" is just like designing school curriculum to prepare for standardized tests.

All dogs were bred to satisfy some human need, whether it is guarding, herding, companionship or hunting. The most balanced dogs come from lines where the extremes of these functions are ignored. The extremes are the trials in many ways.


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

My main requirements are health and temperment. I also do not want a dog with high dominance or high energy (for a german shepherd) with my 5 year old. Keep in mind I am an experienced GSD owner, I know they require exercise but some dogs are more strung/wound tighter than others. I plan to train the dog in obedience and possibly recreational shutzhund. Realistically with work I wont be able to train a dog at the competitive level. I dont plan to breed or title the dog and the dog will be fixed as soon as possible. A friend of mine just purchased a dog from a breeder in MI and he did alot of research and paid $2500 and now he believes the breeder is technicaly a BYB and he doesnt like his dogs temperment. I want to find a reputable breeder that I can trust to set me up with the right dog and be honest.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Brian


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

From my equally uneducated point, I buy titles because I won't be able to tell whether or not I like how a dog performs even if I saw them work on the field. I saw the NASS videos on another forum, and honestly couldn't tell the difference between a dog who performed plainly and a dog who performed really well unless it was a ginormous performance glitch. I am easily impressed by all the glory and majesty that comes with a GSD, and I recognize that. I know that once I see the dog, I'll think it's great in every aspect because I lack experience and just desperately want a dog. So in buying from a breeder who titles their dogs, I'm not buying a SPECIFIC titled pedigree, I'm buying the fact that, to the best of my deciphering abilities, this breeder is active with the breed and is doing something with their dogs. 

But because I've always approached breeder research with this view, I am also hesitate to have a puppy from untitled parents, even if it's from a great breeder, unless I know 100% why they aren't titled and can understand the reasoning from a layman's point of view. 

Other than titled parents, some things I've found to be very important when looking at whether a breeder fits your needs are:

1)Do they usually communicate in ways that match your habits. For example, I've found that I enjoy frequent updates through Facebook and blogs more than phone calls and emails. This wasn't something I even thought about when I looked for breeders. 

2)Do they always present a consistent image, and do you usually agree with what they say? I think one of the biggest impressions I had of my breeder was coming onto this forum some time ago and seeing a thankyou thread directed to her. To me, a newbie in the breed, having a supportive and knowledgeable breeder to guide me is absolutely key.

3) Can you connect with them as a person? Yes, there's always the approach that you buy the puppy and cut the breeder out of your life...but I think getting to know the breeder really helps the breeder place the most suitable pup for you. Also, having a personal connection can really improve post sale services on things like, "my dog is pooping purple, what should I do?".

Just my 2 cents, hope it gives you some more stuff to think about.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

BrianB said:


> My main requirements are health and temperment. I also do not want a dog with high dominance or high energy (for a german shepherd) with my 5 year old. Keep in mind I am an experienced GSD owner, I know they require exercise but some dogs are more strung/wound tighter than others. I plan to train the dog in obedience and possibly recreational shutzhund. Realistically with work I wont be able to train a dog at the competitive level. I dont plan to breed or title the dog and the dog will be fixed as soon as possible. A friend of mine just purchased a dog from a breeder in MI and he did alot of research and paid $2500 and now he believes the breeder is technicaly a BYB and he doesnt like his dogs temperment. I want to find a reputable breeder that I can trust to set me up with the right dog and be honest.
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback.
> 
> Brian


Fixing as soon as possible is a big No No, just so you know.


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

My buddy bought his GSD because he liked mine so much and we tried to go to my breeder but the biggest red flag was my breeder offered a female puppy for free with a male if you would become a breeding partner with him. Obviously that is not being selective! The breeder didnt do this 10 years ago when I got mine but now it seems more of a business for him. Maybe I got lucky with my last dog but he never chewed anything he wasnt supposed to even when a puppy and never left my side when he was off leash even as a puppy. Mine was crate trained and since my wife doesnt work was under constant supervision. My buddies dog is chewing up everything and will bolt at the first sign of daylight and not come back and he does exercise the dog. His just doesnt seem as easy going and trainable as my dog was. That is what I dont want.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sable123 said:


> Fixing as soon as possible is a big No No, just so you know.


People have differing opinions about the best time to neuter, but to say it's out-and-out wrong is simply an opinion, and doesn't help the OP.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BrianB said:


> I want to find a reputable breeder that I can trust to set me up with the right dog and be honest.


Are you wanting to find someone within driving range, or would you consider having a pup shipped to you? Because that will open up a lot of possibilities as far as reputable breeders go.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Freestep said:


> People have differing opinions about the best time to neuter, but to say it's out-and-out wrong is simply an opinion, and doesn't help the OP.


Yes it does because many breeders are becoming insistent that males be left intact until mature. So the OP can draw his conclusions about particular breeders.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BrianB said:


> Maybe I got lucky with my last dog but he never chewed anything he wasnt supposed to even when a puppy and never left my side when he was off leash even as a puppy. Mine was crate trained and since my wife doesnt work was under constant supervision. My buddies dog is chewing up everything and will bolt at the first sign of daylight and not come back and he does exercise the dog. His just doesnt seem as easy going and trainable as my dog was. That is what I dont want.


Do you have the pedigree for your dog? Knowing the bloodlines may help you in your search for a similar dog.


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Are you wanting to find someone within driving range, or would you consider having a pup shipped to you? Because that will open up a lot of possibilities as far as reputable breeders go.


I believe one of the reasons my dog never wanted to wander and never humped anything was because I fixed him so early, that is just a theory of mine. I fixed him at 4 months old. I want to be able to visit the kennel and meet the breeders dogs before I commit so want to be in driving distance. I live in Chicago, not the middle of no where so there has to be a reputable breeder around here!!!

Brian


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BrianB said:


> I believe one of the reasons my dog never wanted to wander and never humped anything was because I fixed him so early, that is just a theory of mine. I fixed him at 4 months old.


Quite possible, but it could just be his particular temperament. I do think that males are a bit easier to train and live with as pets, if they don't have testosterone flooding their brains. You should be aware, however, that some breeders frown upon early spay/neuter these days. There are growth issues that can occur with the long bones in the absence of certain hormones, and a slight risk of osteosarcoma in dogs neutered prior to physical maturity.

Personally, I think it ought to be the owner's choice when to neuter, and though some might think doing it at 4 months of age is tantamount to animal cruelty, that's not an opinion I share. There are lots of factors that need to go into the decision; many shelters are now doing pediatric spay/neuter on their animals as young as 8 weeks of age, because of the pet overpopulation problem. So there is a wide range of opinion on the issue; do your own research and don't let anyone try to scare you into doing it their way.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I personally don't feel that a "title" makes the dog and let's face it, titles can be bought. 

I have a very nice male WL that is extremely balanced and a very nice dog. He has good conformation and excellent nerve and drive. I bred him 6 months ago to a very nice bitch who wasn't titled but was working towards it. AS well as he is working towards titles. He will be titled eventually, but due to my family committments in the past and a poor foundation in OB due to my stupidity, it has taken longer than I anticipated, this is however my FIRST truly working bred dog (I've worked other breeds but he is my first working bred GSD). After much consulting and advice seeking etc...it was decided to go ahead with the breeding despite the lack of titles. I went off the advice of some very knowledgable breeders and am VERY happy that I did. The puppies are doing extremely well in all of their chosen sport venues or just being a nice family companion. They have all been kept fairly close and are on limited registration. Since this was both dog's first progeny, we want to make sure that they're breed worthy before we lift the limited status and only 2 will be getting that lifted IF they pass health testing and continue working towards titles. The bitches owner kept a puppy and I can see exactly how she is maturing and growing. So far, she is AWESOME! 

I have had some people from this very forum be down on me for breeding my dog. ( He was fully health tested as well as the bitch.) But in the end, he is still the same dog as he always has been and always will be after titles or before. Calling people BYBs because their dogs aren't titled is pretty silly and uneducated when some people themselves have no idea about breeding in the first place. 

Just because a dog isn't titled doesn't mean that he/she isn't breed worthy.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

BrianB said:


> I believe one of the reasons my dog never wanted to wander and never humped anything was because I fixed him so early, that is just a theory of mine. I fixed him at 4 months old. I want to be able to visit the kennel and meet the breeders dogs before I commit so want to be in driving distance. I live in Chicago, not the middle of no where so there has to be a reputable breeder around here!!!
> 
> Brian


Look for breeders that 1) advocate neutering only at maturity, 2) don't vaccinate before 8 -10 weeks of age 3) don't let puppies go early and 4) allow puppies to wean naturally. The longer a puppy stays with its mother and its littermates the better socialized that puppy will be. JMO


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm not going to get into the debate of titles,,but I see Brian you are from Chicago..My best recommendation for you is to go to ROBIN who is IN Illinois, and has been giving you some excellent advice in this topic..I think you'll be happy with her , she always comes highly recommended))


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Robin is a GREAT choice for a breeder!!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm searching for a good breeder of Dachshunds right now and while many breeders originally bought their breeding stock from AKC parents, they themselves have done nothing in the way of showing or titling any of their dogs

the above is a quoted snip.
Although a different breed, the Dachshund has changed according to the whims of exaggeration in the show ring. So what do those titles mean? Originally the Dachshund was a tough little go to ground badger hunter that would be tested ridding badgers in the field and later at go to ground trials . Nowadays I don't think they are bred for that at all . I have been at enough go to ground specialty trials to see jack russells fail miserably , having virtually no instinct .

got to agree with sable 123 with this Look for breeders that 1) advocate neutering only at maturity, 2) don't vaccinate before 8 -10 weeks of age 3) don't let puppies go early and 4) allow puppies to wean naturally. The longer a puppy stays with its mother and its littermates the better socialized that puppy will be " quoted snip.

Cutting edge research is showing , announcements imminent , that the immune system is DEVELOPED in this time frame. Here is where epigenetics will have powerful long lasting , far reaching effects . 

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

99% of being happy with your purchase is in knowing what you are really looking for. Too many puppy buyers have only looked online at working lines, and don't know what it is to really handle and live with a strong dog. I waited 6 years to find what I wanted... and he ended up being the son of the first Working line dog that turned my head. Whether she had a title or not she had that something special I wanted for my companion dog. A dog IS whatever it IS... Titles are the proof of that to buyers, or breeders who don't have the chance to personally know the dog in question, and the IDEAL is to breed dogs with proper credentials as well as filling what you're looking for. It's a good rule... and like most rules there are exceptions.:halogsd:


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

VonKromeHaus said:


> I personally don't feel that a "title" makes the dog and let's face it, titles can be bought.
> 
> Just because a dog isn't titled doesn't mean that he/she isn't breed worthy.


I happen to agree with this. My dog's are not titled, but yet we have puppies out of them that are training in schutzhund, being a demo dog for Police K9 work, personal protection work and 1 specifically went VP1 at a German conformation show as well as being a UKC Champion at 9 months old and got her HIC before her Championship too. I have no problem with someone coming over to test our stud Zavien in bite work just as long as they know what their doing. His nerves are Rock Solid and he is what a GSD should be IMHO. [/QUOTE] Just because a dog isn't titled doesn't mean that he/she isn't breed worthy.[/QUOTE]
 
If you are looking for show lines I would personally go with Robin any time. She does have a full DDR girl too, so it won't hurt to talk to her if your looking for DDR lines as well.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

sable123 said:


> Look for breeders that 1) advocate neutering only at maturity, 2) don't vaccinate before 8 -10 weeks of age 3) don't let puppies go early and 4) allow puppies to wean naturally. The longer a puppy stays with its mother and its littermates the better socialized that puppy will be. JMO


Agree with this too b/c this is what we do!!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

windwalker718 said:


> 99% of being happy with your purchase is in knowing what you are really looking for.


Yes!!!

I got Pan from a working line breeder that has multiple males and females. Two of the males are very accomplished, high scores, placements at a higher level, etc. But I chose the litter from the younger male just titled in SchH3 not really competitive yet. I'd seen him in person at a conformation show and doing bitework. I also watched some of his training, watched his trial videos (where he was not perfect but I've always respected this breeder for being honest and transparent). When I met him "off the field" (just being social with us) he showed all the behaviors and temperament I was looking for not just in a working dog but a family companion dog. He came out of the house, not a kennel. I just preferred everything about this male even though the other studs were more "accomplished" as far as titles and competitions. Not that they are bad dogs by any means but winning a regional is impressive but not priority for me, I need a dog I can live with as a companion above everything else.


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## Rexy (Jun 4, 2011)

My view on titles is this: 

A good dog has the ability to be titled a poor dog doesn't, but a poor dog can be bred with it's ability talked up by the breeder to be anything the buyer wants to hear, that's the problem with untitled dogs?


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

@BrianB - Both WildWolf and Liesje have given you hints about a reputable breeder in the Chicago, IL area where they got their puppy from. 

Bill Kulla and Jennifer Acevedo train and title their dogs by taking them through the BH, getting their AD and breed survey, as well as their Schutzhund 1-3 titles. Some of their dogs had titles before purchase, but others were green and trained through all their titles (Ayla vom Haus Lohre, Boy von Zorra). 

Bill is a teaching helper who classifies and teaches people to become helpers with the United Schutzhund Club of America (UScCA) and Jen is the North Central Region director for the UScA.

Their dogs have their hips and elbows cleared either with the a-stamp if they are from Germany or with the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA). Bill's retired competition dog Kway has also participated in a study for degenerative myelopathy (DM) and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI).

They whelp their puppies and hold onto them until 8 weeks of age before releasing them to their prospective owners and 8 weeks is when my puppy had her first shots.

Just recently, Jen got her Schutzhund 1 on her female Mia vom Geistwasser whom she bred, handled, owned and trained.

Even if you don't get a dog/puppy from Bill and Jen, it would be worthwhile to talk to them to learn more and they can always tell you if their puppies are a good match for you or give you a referral.

Other people on this forum also have Bill and Jen pups, and all you have to do is just use the search function: myself (M-litter), wildwolf (S-litter), Liseje (P-litter), jturcotte (L-litter, O-litter), Elaine (G-litter), luvsables (M-litter)

They will have puppies of drive and temperament across a spectrum whether you are a national competitor, regional/club competitor, K9/Law Enforcement (Sonya Bass with the Marengo, IL police has a dog from the I-litter), or active companion (me, Miya is my running companion and we go 3 x 3.1mi and 1 x 6.2+mi each week). 

jturcotte also has a Huerta Hof dog from Robin and Carlos Huerta in Chicago, IL and she trains dogs in Schutzhund and law enforcement so you may want to talk to her for first hand experience between her GSD pack members.


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

Also:

Don't get stuck on absolutely getting a dog from your region. It is preferred because you can observe the sire and dam, see them work and observe how they handle strangers, kids, etc., the conditions they live in...

I had to import my puppy from the US to Canada.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Rexy said:


> My view on titles is this:
> 
> A good dog has the ability to be titled a poor dog doesn't, but a poor dog can be bred with it's ability talked up by the breeder to be anything the buyer wants to hear, that's the problem with untitled dogs?


I'm sorry but. . . . what?  I don't really understand what you just said here.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Emoore said:


> I'm sorry but. . . . what?  I don't really understand what you just said here.


I think he or she is saying, don't automatically believe a breeder who talks up their untitled dog. For example I've heard of people wanting to get into schutzhund being told by a breeder that "Oh I could easily title this dog in schutzhund but I don't have the time to get to trials." Yeah sure, and I have a bridge I'd like to sell.....


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Rexy said:


> My view on titles is this:
> 
> A good dog has the ability to be titled a poor dog doesn't, but a poor dog can be bred with it's ability talked up by the breeder to be anything the buyer wants to hear, that's the problem with untitled dogs?



Yep, and then you also have people who call themselves breeders, yet never title their dogs, merely riding the coattails of past dogs that may (or may not have) been titled. Who knows if their dog _could_ be titled. The fact remains it's not now, and probably never will be.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

dunringill said:


> i think he or she is saying, don't automatically believe a breeder who talks up their untitled dog. For example i've heard of people wanting to get into schutzhund being told by a breeder that "oh i could easily title this dog in schutzhund but i don't have the time to get to trials." yeah sure, and i have a bridge i'd like to sell.....


this.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Rexy said:


> My view on titles is this:
> 
> A good dog has the ability to be titled a poor dog doesn't, but a poor dog can be bred with it's ability talked up by the breeder to be anything the buyer wants to hear, that's the problem with untitled dogs?


If only it were that simple!!

However, there are PLENTY of poor dogs that HAVE titles! Just like there are plenty of good dogs that aren't titled.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If breeder isn't titling at least some of their dogs, (or breeding dogs that don't necessarily have titles but are actually working) I guess my question would be, what made them decide to become breeders in the first place? What's the goal?

If I was going to become a breeder it would be because I wanted something from the dogs I was producing. A better herder, K-9, sports dog, whatever, and I'd want to be the one that was out there proving how great my bloodline was. Seems like that would a lot more fun and interesting that just pumping out puppies and selling them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If breeder isn't titling at least some of their dogs, (or breeding dogs that don't necessarily have titles but are actually working) I guess my question would be, what made them decide to become breeders in the first place? What's the goal?
> 
> If I was going to become a breeder it would be because I wanted something from the dogs I was producing. A better herder, K-9, sports dog, whatever, and I'd want to be the one that was out there proving how great my bloodline was. Seems like that would a lot more fun and interesting that just pumping out puppies and selling them.


Exactly. I think those folks want to make a name for themselves, but without something impressive going on in the breeding programs, they are just a run of the mill breeder, one step up from the backyard style breeders. Anyone can breed papered pets.


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## Rexy (Jun 4, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> If only it were that simple!!
> 
> However, there are PLENTY of poor dogs that HAVE titles! Just like there are plenty of good dogs that aren't titled.


I disagree with the concept that poor dogs can be titled if they were genuinely trialled. I have seen an imported dog with a SchH1 that couldn't focus heel or do any Sch obedience, that dog's title I suspect was falsified but unless we are talking midnight trials and faslification it's difficult to title a dog that cannot do the routines to the required level.

What are we talking, poor dogs who can do the routines but not very well or falsifaction of titles?


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