# DDR/Czech West line Mixes?



## xsaysayx (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm curious to see some photos/breeders who mix west/show line dogs with the working lines of czech,ddr/etc. 
I imagine it would create a very sturdy temperament and healthy dog with a very unique and possibly beautiful outcome. I know most people are all for working or all for show, and I haevn't been able to find anyone who combines them.
Just curious. Thanks!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I did it once and did not like the uniform type I got. Two real nice dogs out of eight. Other six were decent but not up to my expectations. Biggest problem was lack of nerve strength in pups even though the SL mother had great nerve. I went against my instincts.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Hopefully you will continue not to see that. Whats the point of taking a dog breed to work and make it prettier. DDR specifically (Im biased) and some Czech have all the beauty and braun to get the tough jobs done. If you have to outcross your line to get a sturdy temperament and a healthy dog you have screwed the pooch to begin with. Just sayin


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Working X showline cross. I don't think that this is a new concept.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> lack of nerve strength in pups even though the SL mother had great nerve.


Ps

My comment was not flung in your direction. Question if you see this. Two solid nerve dogs, I would almost never expect to see those percentages. Was she a anomaly in her line for nerves? What do you associate the drastic reduction in nerve to?

Thanks

JD


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't see a problem with these mixes whatsoever , having done so and continue to do so all the time .

example police service dog Agro Carmspack Agro
https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/carmspack-agro-success-page

Carmspack Badger




and his brother
Urban Tracking Dog Excellent at "just" three years of age 
Birch-Bark Hill

Sumo (Journey) who brings in Colin Malemi Carmspack Sumo

Carmspack Nickolas Line-breeding for the progency of Carmspack Stan and Chiba vom Parchimer Land All Things "Dog": August 2012


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I really like the Czech/DDR/West working line combinations, personally.

I'm a bit more dubious about adding the showline dogs, however, there are many top working dogs from Czech and West bloodlines that have had a little bit of showlines bred in. It seems like the best results from these combinations are often a few generations down from the introduction of the show bloodlines.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have done a few Czech and West working line breedings and have very much liked the results. But those were all working line, no show lines.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Carmen, I am not seeing the show lines in the pedigrees you listed--which dogs are the conformation dogs?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think Czech and DDR GSDs need anything the showlines can add in terms of looks.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Where do I think the lack of nerve came from? HaHa ...I don't know now cause I recently learned that seeing a dog in person trumps bloodlines....,
Seriously though, look at it this way....suppose you have a litter with 8pups and 6 are lacking in nerve strength, but two are solid in nerves. Now suppose someone comes by and sees one of the two solid dogs and decides to breed to them because what they see is solid. So the litter comes and half the litter has nerve issues even though both parents showed an outward expression of good nerves. Did the parent that was from a litter of majority weak nerves throw what they were or what they were made up of, or both? I know what I think, but curious what others think. I so confused these days.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This is a dog I once knew, I was told that he was bred in Czech, but of German show lines. I don't know Czech pedigrees well enough to know whether this would be considered a showline pedigree or a showline/Czech mix.

Zasko z Gentu

Zasko was a bit of a hot-head, I was told that much of it was due to the type of training he'd gotten before he came to the US. He wasn't stupidly aggressive, but he was a dog I wouldn't have wanted to mess with--serious and civil.


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## xsaysayx (Feb 14, 2010)

All I mean by the appearance is the black and red. I love it  I don't like the show lines who have no schutzhund abilities, but there are a lot of lines that excel in sieger as well as work, though I agree not typically as well as a strict working line. I think that a dog with a very strong working instinct (for a sieger line), who also has great conformation, bred to a nicely built DDR or larger czech would make an excellent dog, but I suppose it depends.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I agree there is *potential* for them to look good. 

The concern is that the phenotype on a Czech/DDR dog is quite different than an average sieger type west German showline. 

Blending the two has a potential for some good from both sides. But sometimes adding the two together can just create a mish mash of bizarre looking dogs. It all depends on how the breeding is done, the bloodlines, the phenotypes of the dogs etc. _So_ *so* so much goes into it (and this is only talking about the visual aspects).

That being said, are you saying you like the saddle back look? Or just the vibrant colors? I have seen plenty, and own some working line Czech/DDR/WGWL dogs that have some fantastic pigment and very deep reds to their coats. 


I assume you probably like the dark mask, black muzzle, saddle back with red instead of tan coloration like this. 

** Huge oversize photo removed. Please no photos over 800X600. Thank you. ADMIN**


This is that same showline male with one of my Czech/DDR/WGWL males. the photo was enhanced with instagram to make them pop more, but you can see that the sable males legs are the same hue of red as the showline males. 










But anyways, like everyone else says. It really really depends


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I am getting a puppy from a WGSL / DDR cross this coming summer... (both dogs have good temperaments and good looks/conformation on their own)


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

My young dog is 3/4 ASL and 1/4 DDR. He is a beautiful dog with lots of drive and a gret temperament.

Deestraum-Andaka's Jagged Edge


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My dog Aiden is a WGSL/WGWL cross. Some people who have seen him in Schutzhund think he's weak nerved, but I also think that his foundation in training started all wrong..Too much defense too early has given us our issues. He is also handler sensitive. Other than that I think he's an absolutely amazing dog everywhere that we go, and handsome too. 


stack2 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr


_MG_0825 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Liesje said:


> I am getting a puppy from a WGSL / DDR cross this coming summer... (both dogs have good temperaments and good looks/conformation on their own)


Quite possibly me too. I'm guessing maybe even the same litter.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Really are you getting one from Lindsay? My dog is the sire, so I'm getting a puppy to see how he turns out


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Liesje said:


> Really are you getting one from Lindsay? My dog is the sire, so I'm getting a puppy to see how he turns out


Maybe I guessed wrong then. :blush:

Robin's doing a cross that I've been very interested in for a while now. I think she's mentioned it a couple times on here... maybe not. Her DDR dog, Izzy, and one of her sl's, Uzo. I've got a few litters narrowed down and this cross is very high on my list.

So you decided to breed Nikon? I'm sure he's going to a produce some great puppies. Who's the dam going to be?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Ooooo yeah, hey I want one of those puppies too! lol

I didn't really "decide" to breed him (I'm not doing any breeding myself, don't own a female and don't plan to) but had a few people interested pending him finishing his breed survey and a few other things, it's really their decision whether or not to use him but they seem confident about it and I trust that they know their bitches and their lines. Since I'm not breeding him myself I decided to keep a puppy. I know it's just one puppy and will not be indicative of all the puppies produces, but better than nothing and I'd like to see how he produces and make sure it's not total crap! Plus I have always been interested in these combinations even though they seem to have such a stigma among GSD people. I guess I'm willing to take the risk, be responsible for the dog, and see what becomes of it and the breeder is too. The female is a DDR working line. The two other possibly litters lined up for 2013 are WGSL females.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Yeah... should be interesting to see how they turn out. I know the stigma, but the way I look at it, all puppies are risks to some degree. A good dog is a good dog.

For me it's between that litter and a two other full working litters. My current one is a cross, so I've got a thing for them and that's why this litter is so interesting for me. 

We'll see how it turns out... should be an interesting summer. Warm weather can't come soon enough. Good luck with your next nikon pup!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Varick is DDR/German show line/Czech (1/2 DDR--Sire was pure DDR, Dam's Sire and Dam were 1/2 German Show). He has excellent drive and is very confident, and he can even be a sweetie.  I love DDR, WGSL, and Czech so I am perfetly fine with his cross. As long as he has the temperament, that is. 
I, personally, think that he is very pretty, and cannot wait to see what he will look like mature! 

Varick at 17 weeks


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is one on Sumo Bazita vom Olympus
Bazita Olympus --
and Rampa SchH 3 highly praised by Diegel and the Vollraths and multi high in trial schutzhund was a progeny of Yeuletts Bastian Wagoner , son of Bastian Odenburg and Vashta Spezialblut (working) but the dam of Rampa was Yeuletts Indian Surprise which had American show common to the early 1980's . 
There is not one doubt about Rampa as an individual dog and for what he was able to produce - which included many rcmp SAR dogs working out of Alberta, high trialing schutzhund dogs - and when merged with my lines in this combination Carmspack Sabrina I put the emphasis on what I like , preparing to take it forward .
Chilkoot became a police dog as did his son .
Another son went to multi millionaire family that wanted and needed personal protection and made it clear that if you failed you would hear about it -- dog was perfect , another went to a radio station owner - Toronto's Olde wealth - and I kept Sabrina who produced service dogs and is vital in my overall breeding program .

Ruth continues to incorporate the occassional show line dog . Her evaluation is sharp and demanding , apparently she has found a dog that fits the bill. I do not go out of my way to bring in show lines but may on occassion inherit them .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is not a formula "
All I mean by the appearance is the black and red. I love it  I don't like the show lines who have no schutzhund abilities, but there are a lot of lines that excel in sieger as well as work, though I agree not typically as well as a strict working line. I think that a dog with a very strong working instinct (for a sieger line), who also has great conformation, bred to a nicely built DDR or larger czech would make an excellent dog, but I suppose it depends. "


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## xsaysayx (Feb 14, 2010)

4TheDawgies said:


> I agree there is *potential* for them to look good.
> 
> The concern is that the phenotype on a Czech/DDR dog is quite different than an average sieger type west German showline.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do prefer the typical markings of a show line (saddleback, etc), but I am mostly referring to the pigmentation. If I own a sable dog, it if definitely going to be a deep red sable, not because I think it is any better than other, just different. Red is my favorite color on any animal. 
I agree, sometimes they come out looking horribly gangly and oddly colored. I think if a lot of planning was put into it and instead of, after one breeding with less than perfect results, if someone were to continue working with them it could have some very beneficial results. Those dogs are very gorgeous, though my favorite look is the typical deep red and black saddleback. Just, I am with the working line people in agreeing that the show line breeders are NOT focusing on working ability or temperament enough at all. Most top show lines that are 'schh3' have barely passed the tests, or have faked it. Not to mention most of the top seiger dogs have absolutely no personality. Lol. I think working lines are SO much more fun but I just love the appearance of the sieger lines (minus the roach back) that I dream of a perfect combination


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## xsaysayx (Feb 14, 2010)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Varick is DDR/German show line/Czech (1/2 DDR--Sire was pure DDR, Dam's Sire and Dam were 1/2 German Show). He has excellent drive and is very confident, and he can even be a sweetie.  I love DDR, WGSL, and Czech so I am perfetly fine with his cross. As long as he has the temperament, that is.
> I, personally, think that he is very pretty, and cannot wait to see what he will look like mature!
> 
> Varick at 17 weeks


He is beautiful! I think that is a wonderful cross. He looks like he's going to turn out very nicely too.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would wait to assess a young dog until they are around 3...especially if the dog has DDR bloodlines. What you see at 1 yr 2 yrs isn't necessarily what you'll get at 3. Czech and DDR are not one in the same, and shouldn't be placed in the same 'group'
Kind of like saying Am SL & WG SL's are alike.
I really don't get the reason to blend DDR/WGSL's but I guess the proof will be told eventually, though waiting would be tough, especially if you want to repeat a breeding.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

xsaysayx said:


> He is beautiful! I think that is a wonderful cross. He looks like he's going to turn out very nicely too.


Thank you very much!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I had the misfortune of owning a show/working mix who got the worst from both lines. 

I imagine the right person can do it and come up with the right results but I am not seeing anything that exists in the showlines (that I have seen/met) that would actually improve the working lines.

---

I know Molly at Eichenluft does these combinations but I have only met one of her dogs who was a very nice 100% WL dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> *I would wait to assess a young dog until they are around 3...especially if the dog has DDR bloodlines. What you see at 1 yr 2 yrs isn't necessarily what you'll get at 3.* Czech and DDR are not one in the same, and shouldn't be placed in the same 'group'
> Kind of like saying Am SL & WG SL's are alike.
> I really don't get the reason to blend DDR/WGSL's but I guess the proof will be told eventually, though waiting would be tough, especially if you want to repeat a breeding.


 I should clarify...if the dog is showing unstable temperament, it won't get better with maturity....but a dog that may not show certain behaviors/ those may come out eventually with maturity. RE: prey drive/defense, or suspicion early on may change as the dog matures. But a dog without a solid nerve-base won't change when older.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I raised a pup from a working/show line cross, Bagheera de Alsuvival, from 2 to 8 months old and I keep working with her weekly. NOT a dog I'd own, ever.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Just me, but Falk is not a dog I would consider mixing with SLs.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

gagsd said:


> Just me, but Falk is not a dog I would consider mixing with SLs.


What about Chuck?


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