# Please discuss:



## selzer

Our breed is loyal to their handler, intelligent, biddible, and bred to work with humans. How come it is considered not only acceptable, but typical to require prong collars or e-collars to control them? Is this a flaw in leadership, training, or genetics?


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## Armistice

As with humans leaning concepts, maybe dogs are similar

Some people learn best when reading/ told. Others, including myself, are visual learners and hands on to learn best

It's possible that some dogs can understand training with just a normal collar while some are a bit harder to control and then need a prong or e-collar to get the point across

However, it could be human error. Not all of us are pros at dog training, and don't have the money for an actual trainer, so we do the best we can from reading and watching videos. Our timing is not perfect, so that can cause some issues that eventually need to be corrected with other methods


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## tim_s_adams

JustI have never used either...and I've been working with GSDs for nearly 50 yrs. But I don't think either tool is a/the problem. Instead a prong or e-collar is a "quicker" solution to many many age old issues that the rest of us have struggled with forever! Don't blame the tool...its always the human in the training that needs to learn the most!

One great thing about both of these tools is how fast dogs/puppies catch on! Used correctly, I think they're awesome training aids. And you're absolutely correct on your thinking about learning styles...always, always work the dog in front of you! You don't need experience to do this, just careful observation! And hey, why not use the latest and greatest tools....i can think of no good reason...except, not knowing how to use a tool correctly....


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## thegooseman90

There's no flaw in leadership or genetics because you choose to use a training tool. Be it prong, electric, choke, etc. Its not required to use one and lots of people get by just fine without it. A car isn't required either, but it's a **** of a lot easier and faster to get where you're going.


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## IllinoisNative

I think it may quicken the learning process using one of the tools mentioned above. I have an older dog who is almost 13 now that I've had since he was 10 weeks old. He never needed a choke chain, prong, ecollar, etc. He's been on a flat buckle collar his whole life. But he was never a puller and responded very quickly to leash training.

However, my 11 month old GSD needs a stronger approach, and I needed a quicker solution.


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## JaxsMom

The moment I put a prong on my 7 mo he was instantly a new dog on walks with only a couple of very gentle corrections. I have learned that when walking him with his prong, my touch on the leash has to be super loose and gentle. If he wants to stop and sniff he is able to pull loose slack through my hand without any tension on the leash, and always comes back to heel when I tell him lets go, then I shorten back up that slack. We were able to walk by another dog! Calmly! Something we had never done before without drama. I am proud of him on walks now and he is proud of himself!


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## car2ner

Growing up I never used a prong. We did use Choke Chains. They were common back then, but we didn't really choke the dog with them. As an adult I had a rescue GSD that walked perfectly on a flat collar. His previous owner must have trained him well and it must have broken her heart to let him go. 

Fast forward to the pair of dogs I have now. if I had done the stop and start walking routine on a flat collar or martingale with my big-boy as a pup, we would never have left the yard for a long long time. Yes, I was impatient and wanted to go for real walks, so at 6 months we went with a prong. Honestly, it is an illusion of control. The other day my big-boy went way over threshold and even with the prong on he yanked the leash out of my grasp. Most of the time the collar reminds him of his limits. He expects to wear it now. I really dislike using discomfort to get him to pay attention, though. I use encouragement and reward more often. 

My female wears one on walks but often I don't even have the leash attached to it. It is just there if I feel the situation requires a bit more, "hey, pay attention to your limits". One day I had her on her martingale and she desperately wanted to go meet and greet our big-boy. She pulled on her collar so hard it started to make her gag. I had to swing around and gather her up to keep her from hurting herself. If it had been the prong collar she would not have pulled that hard. 

So in my limited experience, 90% - 99% of the time the prong is not needed. It is there for that tiny percent of times when adrenaline rushed power needs to be controlled...and even then it might not be enough.


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## Shane'sDad

I'm old school--I've always used a choke collar--long before "positive reinforcement" was the new phrase of the day. Ultimately if there's a new tool and it works for you and your dog-- than use it. As far as genetics-- I've had dogs from 100% Schutzhund pedigrees to mainly show lines and they've all turned out to be great family dogs. When people ask out in public --What do you do with your dogs they're so well behaved??--I just smile and thank them----but in my mind I credit it to leadership, training and the "bond" that's developed over time. Day to day it wasn't always a perfect ride--but in the end it was worth it.

It's makes me feel very sad for the breed (based on the many behavioral threads here) that there's that many GSDs out there with BIG issues. There's no magic pill or quick fix. IMO it's about being a leader--training and teaching boundaries.It's very sad that so many of these dogs end up in shelters/rescues with behavioral problems--- simply because the breed was popular at the time the owner got their new puppy---when the problem IMO is that the owner couldn't lead a one man parade on a bet---and there was no "magic" pill to be found online. The dog and the breeds reputation is what really suffers and that's SAD


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## Elsieb

I’m an old lady and for the unexpected fox sightings I am comfortable using the prong.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think the objection to prongs is that people don't use them as a training tool but as a device they use to walk their dogs forever and ever and ever.

Selzer's point is that most German Shepherds are too easily trained to walk on a leash without pulling so why not train the dog instead?


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## Slamdunc

Different tools are needed for different dogs and different jobs. Not every GSD is biddable or bred to work with humans. Some are harder, more aggressive, higher drive and need more control. 

I guess my question would be that all cars are designed to be driven by humans, why do we need anti lock brakes, air bags, power steering and all wheel drive on cars? My first car had none of those and I got around safely. Some cars simply have more power and these advances in technology make the average person safer and able to control cars with more power than they might be able to handle otherwise. The cars are safer, more reliable and perform better. When you work with GSD's with significantly more power and drive than the average GSD that most people are used too, you will see the need for options in equipment. 

I own, train and work with GSD's that are not couch potatoes. I dislike like choke chains and will not use them. My dogs do wear a thick flat leather collar, they also wear a prong collar. Some days my males may have an E collar on them or a harness. I do a lot of different things with my dogs on a daily basis. I use the correct tool for the job. When out in public, whether on a walk or working they always have a prong collar on. There is nothing wrong with the proper use of a prong collar, it is a very safe and effective tool. Especially for those wanting a higher degree of performance from a stronger, drivey dog. Not all dogs need a prong, some are fine on flat collars, it depends on the dog. 

You simply can not lump this breed into one category these days anymore, or say all GSD's should be this way. There are soft, biddable dogs and then there are strong dogs. My dogs are strong and biddable with me, wanting to please me, happy and high in drive. They would be far too much for most GSD owners to handle. Certainly, you are not handling Boomer on a flat collar. It is just not going to happen. When you see dogs like this work and perform the level of hardness, drive and aggression is way more than the average GSD.


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## Bramble

Tradition? 

Punishment is very effective when done correctly. Punishment works very well to suppress behaviors people do not want. Punishment is also very reinforcing for the handler/owner. If you can pop a leash or push a button and get an immediate change in the behavior of your dog, that it is reinforcing to the handler/owner because they got rewarded. 

How someone trains their dog is their choice. There is no one "right" way to train a dog. I don't think prongs are evil or that the people who use them are bad trainers. Choosing to use or not use a certain collar doesn't mean anything about how good a trainer you are. If you train your dog to walk on a loose leash with an prong, but the dog will only walk nicely when wearing a prong and pulls without it, well then that dog doesn't truly understand what is expected of them. Same with using food or toys. It's not what tool you use, it's how well you use that tool to accomplish your end goal.


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## onyx'girl

I agree with Slamdunc....there are dogs and there are DOGS.
I use e-collar for the distance work. When the dog is running blinds you aren't there to give a correction if they decide to blow a blind. The e-collar is a reminder to do it correctly.
E-collars are also good for not bringing emotion into the correction. Lowest stim, it isn't like I'm jolting the dog with electric, but enough to bring communication. Always fair corrections.
I've also used a prong when necessary during protection when the dogs drive state is very high, flat collar or harness doesn't work during the secondary obedience learning phase.
But the goal is always to work the dog with no line, no collar and just verbal commands as that is what happens during trial in IPO.


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## MineAreWorkingline

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with Slamdunc....there are dogs and there are DOGS.
> I use e-collar for the distance work. When the dog is running blinds you aren't there to give a correction if they decide to blow a blind. The e-collar is a reminder to do it correctly.
> E-collars are also good for not bringing emotion into the correction. Lowest stim, it isn't like I'm jolting the dog with electric, but enough to bring communication. Always fair corrections.
> I've also used a prong when necessary during protection when the dogs drive state is very high, flat collar or harness doesn't work during the secondary obedience learning phase.
> *But the goal is always to work the dog with no line, no collar and just verbal commands as that is what happens during trial in sport.*


Exactly! The goal should be to train the dog.


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## Mary Beth

Very interesting question, Selzer! I'm also a member of gsd forums in Great Britain and France. No prong collars or e-collars and their gsds are trained. Also those forums do not have the aggression threads that occur here.


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## lhczth

The GSD was created to be a utilitarian working dog using 4 regional types, some that had strong genetic obedience and others that were far less biddable. To think that all dogs in the breed were the same and could be handled with a strong voice is very naïve and shows a lack of understanding of the history of the breed. One is also not taking into consideration the differences in the dogs brought in and now used from the former Eastern bloc countries. Training tools have been developed to replace what used to be rather brutal methods to control the stronger dogs (dogs that have always existed). Our dog is a working breed and while a desire to work with man is what made the dog so popular as a working dog the world over, it was NEVER meant to be a soft low drive couch potato.

I have talked to trainers from countries where training tools have been banned and other far more physical methods are again used or the tools are used in secret.

Please explain to me this obsession with how others train?


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## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> Our breed is loyal to their handler, intelligent, biddible, and bred to work with humans. How come it is considered not only acceptable, but typical to require prong collars or e-collars to control them? Is this a flaw in leadership, training, or genetics?


In Shadows case likely genetic. After multiple close calls, I went with a prong for her safety and mine. Although she is now manageable, I use the prong for neighborhood walks. She remains on a martingale for hikes and woodland walks where I keep her on the long line. I had never used a prong before her, and oddly she is the smallest GSD I have owned. She is a hunter, likes it when they flee. Absolutely ruled by a biological imperative to track, chase and kill. Ingrained and unstoppable fear/dislike of other dogs, the result of owners who can't or won't control their dogs and allow them to rush and often attack other dogs.
I had a poorly bred, genetically unstable dog to start with. Circumstance and bad luck combined to work against me. The prong was vital to getting through to her, as the second we walked out the gate she was on high alert. You cannot communicate with a dog in a panicked state with out first snapping them out of that state.
I think the prong is a tool, like any other. An air ratchet does the job quicker and with less effort then a wrench. No one says the mechanic is lazy, or using a short cut. It is just a tool.


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## Nigel

Mary Beth said:


> Very interesting question, Selzer! I'm also a member of gsd forums in Great Britain and France. No prong collars or e-collars and their gsds are trained. Also those forums do not have the aggression threads that occur here.


Would this indicate they don't need to use tools in Europe or they just don't talk about it?


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## dogma13

Mary Beth said:


> Very interesting question, Selzer! I'm also a member of gsd forums in Great Britain and France. No prong collars or e-collars and their gsds are trained. Also those forums do not have the aggression threads that occur here.


I follow several blogs of U.K. and European trainers.Whole different storyLivestock chasing/killing is a big problem and how to train your dog humanely to never engage in that behavior is discussed often.


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## voodoolamb

selzer said:


> Our breed is loyal to their handler, intelligent, biddible, and bred to work with humans. How come it is considered not only acceptable, but typical to require prong collars or e-collars to control them? Is this a flaw in leadership, training, or genetics?


Why do you associate the need/desire to use tools with some sort of flaw? 

The breed is not only intelligent, biddable and loyal - but also drivey and energetic. Sometimes you need a stronger form of communication with the dog than what you can achieve with just your voice or a flat collar - especially when the dog is all keyed up.

Even if the dog isn't in drive and is clear headed and in a biddable mood - I still find tools to be far more effective and easier to use in some situations. I can immediately reinforce behavior with an e collar when my dog is 100 yards away. Both positive and negative (I use the tone on mine in lieu of a clicker). I'd wear out my voice trying to reinforce things at that distance verbally. 

Even well trained dogs have off days at some point in their lives and might need some guidance from their handler or to be reminded when something is not appropriate. I like to have my dogs off lead. Wearing an e collar is a back up plan. Just because a dog has it on doesn't mean the owner is zapping it every 5 minutes. 

Also... a few places that I hike my dog the authorities are more likely to over look a leash law violation if the dog has a remote collar on as they feel that the owner has more control over the dog than if it were sans collar. I think it's less stressful for my dog for me to toss an e collar on him and let him off leash than walk him on a leash with a flat buckle. My comfort pace isn't his. This way he can do all the sniffs and get in some good trotting. Everyone wins thanks to the e collar.


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## voodoolamb

onyx'girl said:


> But the goal is always to work the dog with no line, no collar and just verbal commands as that is what happens during trial in IPO.


But to be fair... IPO trials happen in controlled environments. Not a whole lot of surprises pop up in trialing.

I take part in a few other dog forums... a week or two back someone posted about how they were walking their dogs off leash on a moor - a place they have walked multiple times weekly for years without any problems - but this time they stumbled across a herd of sheep. Dog saw sheep. Dog chased sheep. Owner called dog. Dog blew off owner. Sheep got injured. 

Something like that is liable to get a dog KILLED. Shot by a farmer or taken away by animal control. 

They aren't machines. It's not like once they are trained they will never ever make a mistake the rest of their lives. 

I can't fault the people who continue to keep an e collar on as a back up for their already trained dogs when exercising them off lead.


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## Muskeg

Dogs have no way of knowing that chasing sheep, running across a road, or sniffing a porcupine could have dire consequences- even deadly ones.

So in lieu of death, I manufacture an artificial, safe, immediate consequence for such behaviors- using e-collar. Thus, my dogs avoid real-life consequences for such behaviors, and everyone is kept safe.

Otherwise, my dogs would need to be leashed, managed, and crated. They would never get to experience the world as a dog. Because, being the instinct driven animals they are, they will make bad choices. 

I'd prefer to train my dogs using effective consequences, that rarely need to be repeated if trained properly, than to be forced to manage them on leash their entire lives.

Natural consequences are serious- getting shot by a farmer, getting hit by a car, getting lost. I can control the e-collar and use it in a safe, humane way that gives everyone freedom. 

It has nothing to do with the bidability of a dog. The very nature of our wonderful dogs mean they will not always make wise choices. Just like a child is protected by having a parent make decisions for him until he is (legally 18, but generally roughly 13), so must we protect our dogs for their entire lives.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the objection to prongs is that people don't use them as a training tool but as a device they use to walk their dogs forever and ever and ever.
> 
> Selzer's point is that most German Shepherds are too easily trained to walk on a leash without pulling so why not train the dog instead?


Its funny Mawl, I'd say just the opposite. I think Shepherds are stronger pullers then a lot of breeds, as easy as they are to train because of how motivated and determined they are, that motivation and determination adds up to stronger opposition reflex in them, so it can be just as easy to end up with strong pulling.


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## Jenny720

Everyone comments all make good points not condemning use of the ecollar and prong collar. I dont have much to add but only each dog is so different why would one think it a major fault in genetics or leaderships skills or lack of a connection with the dog if ecollar or prong is used because it is banned in other countries and unable to be discussed.


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## Shepdad

dogma13 said:


> I follow several blogs of U.K. and European trainers.Whole different storyLivestock chasing/killing is a big problem and how to train your dog humanely to never engage in that behavior is discussed often.


I would be interested to know what those blogs say. How do they do it?


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## Steve Strom

Jenny720 said:


> Everyone comments all make good points not condemning use of the ecollar and prong collar. I dont have much to add but only each dog is so different why would one think it a major fault in genetics or leaderships skills or lack of a connection with the dog if ecollar or prong is used because it is banned in other countries and unable to be discussed.


Different dogs. Why is that such a difficult concept for some? Some dogs are meant for rally, others are meant for more. Try both and you'll see the difference.


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## tim_s_adams

Steve Strom said:


> Different dogs. Why is that such a difficult concept for some? Some dogs are meant for rally, others are meant for more. Try both and you'll see the difference.


This has been the case for a lot longer than prongs or e-collars have existed. So, clearly both dogs and DOGS can be trained without these tools! I think many people would be appalled by some of the techniques that were employed in the past though...

I was just talking with a friend who had been reading a book (I didn't get the title) on bird dog training from the early 1900's. And she said in one section they suggested beating the dog if it did X, and to repeat said beating a maximum of 3 times. If the dog was still doing X, put him down and get another dog. 

Prongs and e-collars are just tools. Effective, but not required.

That being said, I'm not going back to using a manual ratchet wrench when I have a perfectly functional air tool sitting in my toolbox.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Its funny Mawl, I'd say just the opposite. I think Shepherds are stronger pullers then a lot of breeds, as easy as they are to train because of how motivated and determined they are, that motivation and determination adds up to stronger opposition reflex in them, so it can be just as easy to end up with strong pulling.


I think many German Shepherds and dogs in general are inadvertantly taught to pull by well intentioned, but uninformed, owners.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think many German Shepherds and dogs in general are inadvertantly taught to pull by well intentioned, but uninformed, owners.


I always joke that GSD's have some love of strangulation. Even huskies are easier to stop from pulling.


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## dogma13

Shepdad said:


> I would be interested to know what those blogs say. How do they do it?


An e collar seems to be a fast and very effective method.There are other trainers that struggle with a check line and treats but you never ever see those dogs off lead and ignoring the livestock.It's always "a work in progress".


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## Steve Strom

> This has been the case for a lot longer than prongs or e-collars have existed. So, clearly both dogs and DOGS can be trained without these tools!


But just as clearly, not all of them were. If someone can train what they want, whether its just go lay down, or something more complex without any tool at all. I say, go ahead.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> I always joke that GSD's have some love of strangulation. Even huskies are easier to stop from pulling.


The trick with GSDs is to not teach them to pull in the first place.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The trick with GSDs is to not teach them to pull in the first place.


It took me a little while.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The trick with GSDs is to not teach them to pull in the first place.


Good advice, but not sure it applies to dogs that have never been leashed.


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## Cassidy's Mom

So, the gist of this thread is the assumption that because someone _chooses_ to use a particular training tool, it's because they _have to_, that they're not capable of training their dog without it. And also apparently the assumption that using a training tool means you haven't bothered to train your dog. 

Alrighty then, carry on.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Good advice, but not sure it applies to dogs that have never been leashed.


It absolutely does! I do not introduce my dogs to leashes until they are 1 to 2 years old.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It absolutely does! I do not introduce my dogs to leashes until they are 1 to 2 years old.


You always have to look at what the end goal is though. There are things you will not accomplish without the good use of a leash, so for me its always easier to start things young. I know there are people who can wait till a dog is a year or more before they do most things. I'm not one of them.


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## Heartandsoul

I've thought a lot about the prong how and why I changed my mind about it's use for us and what the effects were and are. For myself and our journey together it basically comes down to responsibility and reality. Every single question that can be asked as a what if and why, concerning the prong boils down to those two words. 

My first priority regarding responsibility is safety. My first item on my list under reality: we are not and never will be equal in strength. 

When out and about, my boy will always wear his prong. I think there is a serious flaw in human perception of this tool. I know for a fact that my boy doesn't give a whit about what goes around his neck as long as he gets out to do stuff. If people wish to judge just by his collar, so be it. My actions and his good and happy behavior makes the only statement worth listening to.

Even though he wears the prong, he is free of it. He listens well and responds to a flat collar. 

This subject has been brought up so many times and it is the same discussion basically and one that changed my mind to at least try it. So much good has come from like this for us. Not just the prong use, but the emphasis to continue training and everything else that has been mentioned.

As for flaws, I would use that word for things and methods and may be genetics but not as a discriptive word for humans or creatures.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> You always have to look at what the end goal is though. There are things you will not accomplish without the good use of a leash, so for me its always easier to start things young. I know there are people who can wait till a dog is a year or more before they do most things. I'm not one of them.


My comments were meant to reference the average pet owner that comes on here with leash pulling and / or reactivity issues, not to address those with higher goals.  I also think that pet owners were the primary focus of OP.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It absolutely does! I do not introduce my dogs to leashes until they are 1 to 2 years old.


Then I suppose the pulling thing is moot. I live in a place where you cannot take a dog off your property unleashed, at all. So someone who doesn't need a leash is in a different scenario and would use different tools. This is where the no two are the same comes in. I got Bud at 11 months, took some work to show him what I wanted. Shadow was on a leash from 8 weeks, Lex was earning obedience titles at 8 months but was unreliable in a hay field with deer, Sabi walked the same on or off, Mori was perfect from day 1 at about a year old and never out of a cage, her mom fought like a demon if she felt any collar pressure. 
But all of them would* disregard leash pressure and throttle themselves* given their correct stimulus. For Sabi it was me, for Shadow a track, for Bud it was Sabi, for Lex it was deer, etc.


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## Femfa

When I was doing a presentation on the multiple intelligences, an interesting article came up while I was researching that discussed the introduction of a calculator to the public for education. It was believed to be this magical tool to solve all math problems - it would make everything easier and no one would have to struggle with math again! Everyone would benefit and know how to use this, and math would be so much easier to teach and learn. This was in the 60's/70's. 

How many of us are going about our daily lives being a math genius without choosing to use that tool again? I'm sure some of us can do just fine without one. Does that mean it's wrong to rely on a tool created with the intention of making the process more efficient and effective merely because we can do so without? And can we claim that because the general population possesses the ability to do math once taught the appropriate foundation, should they choose to use it they are flawed, incapable, or lazy?

As Steve said, it comes down to the dog in front of you, the choices you make based on that, and the results you have from the goals you wish to achieve. You might solve a problem and get to the solution differently than I have, but it does not make my way wrong, nor yours. My way may be slower or faster, may use more or less tools, may be more coercive or positive, but if my dog and your dog sit just as fast and nice while happily wagging their tails, then should we not congratulate each other for a job well done?


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## Jenny720

Steve Strom said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone comments all make good points not condemning use of the ecollar and prong collar. I dont have much to add but only each dog is so different why would one think it a major fault in genetics or leaderships skills or lack of a connection with the dog if ecollar or prong is used because it is banned in other countries and unable to be discussed.
> 
> 
> 
> Different dogs. Why is that such a difficult concept for some? Some dogs are meant for rally, others are meant for more. Try both and you'll see the difference.
Click to expand...

Yes I suppose it’s stubborness and can not or do not want to differentiate.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My comments were meant to reference the average pet owner that comes on here with leash pulling and / or reactivity issues, not to address those with higher goals.  I also think that pet owners were the primary focus of OP.


But I look at myself as an average pet owner, and the waiting till a year applies probably even more to people with higher goals and mostly, a higher skill set then me. I find it easier and more fun to start things with a puppy, that shapes them toward whatever your end goal is. My dogs have to be on leash more often then not. I have to put one on early to be able to take them most places we're going to go. I also introduce a prong pretty early on. Not because they need it, but because I'm going to use one anyway. E, I wait until they are pretty experienced and pretty reliable with most everything. I don't end up using it much, but if I do, they understand what it is. A leash is very direct connection to you, they don't understand that with e. I know you already know all this, I'm just posting it because I spent time typing it, Lol.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Then I suppose the pulling thing is moot. I live in a place where you cannot take a dog off your property unleashed, at all. So someone who doesn't need a leash is in a different scenario and would use different tools. This is where the no two are the same comes in. I got Bud at 11 months, took some work to show him what I wanted. Shadow was on a leash from 8 weeks, Lex was earning obedience titles at 8 months but was unreliable in a hay field with deer, Sabi walked the same on or off, Mori was perfect from day 1 at about a year old and never out of a cage, her mom fought like a demon if she felt any collar pressure.
> But all of them would* disregard leash pressure and throttle themselves* given their correct stimulus. For Sabi it was me, for Shadow a track, for Bud it was Sabi, for Lex it was deer, etc.


Offleash is illegal here too, BUT, so are out of control leashed dogs. Six of one, half dozen of the other. You have to choose what is best for you, your dog, and public safety when it comes to leash laws. I choose well behaved, under control dogs, on or off leash.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> But I look at myself as an average pet owner, and the waiting till a year applies probably even more to people with higher goals and mostly, a higher skill set then me. I find it easier and more fun to start things with a puppy, that shapes them toward whatever your end goal is. My dogs have to be on leash more often then not. I have to put one on early to be able to take them most places we're going to go. I also introduce a prong pretty early on. Not because they need it, but because I'm going to use one anyway. E, I wait until they are pretty experienced and pretty reliable with most everything. I don't end up using it much, but if I do, they understand what it is. A leash is very direct connection to you, they don't understand that with e. I know you already know all this, I'm just posting it because I spent time typing it, Lol.


I don't consider people who train in venues to higher levels as average pet owners, but I think you already know that.


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## Steve Strom

And after all that, the only collar I know where it is right now is a fur saver. I use that all the time because I can hook to any link on it and go.


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## Shepdad

selzer said:


> How come it is considered not only acceptable, but typical to require prong collars or e-collars to control them? Is this a flaw in leadership, training, or genetics?


I don't agree with the premise that it is a flaw or not consistent with the breed's ability to be trainable. I do think the problem is dog owners using them without training or sufficient knowledge or having the wrong temperament. I am referring to the owner having the wrong temperament not the dog.

I first used a prong collar years ago with my first GSD when the trainer recommended that I use one and I watched how he trained with it. I have seen people walk into a store, buy an e-collar, read the short instructions and start using it. I would never use an e-collar without attending training on how to use one; or without an experienced dog trainer next to me when I first start using it. 

These tools can be abused and we have all probably seen such cases.


----------



## dogma13

As Steve said, it comes down to the dog in front of you, the choices you make based on that, and the results you have from the goals you wish to achieve. You might solve a problem and get to the solution differently than I have, but it does not make my way wrong, nor yours. My way may be slower or faster, may use more or less tools, may be more coercive or positive, but if my dog and your dog sit just as fast and nice while happily wagging their tails, then should we not congratulate each other for a job well done?

Well said @Femfa.My thoughts exactly


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## tim_s_adams

There is a measure on the ballot for the next election cycle where I live to ban all prongs and e-collars. The really sad thing is, lots of well meaning, but inexperienced and uneducated, people will probably vote for it...


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## Muskeg

Why should "just" pet owners not use the best tools and training to keep their dogs safe and happy? 

Back before we had the tools, beatings and the like were very common as part of training- dogs who survived to reproduce were often genetically "correct" for whatever role they were playing in the human society, without any reliable training. Also common were dogs dead in the road, from poison, taken to the pound and gassed, shot by farmers, killed by mastodons, etc. 

I still remember poor "Jack" in the "Little House" books, who had to trot beneath the wagon all the way out west and nearly drowned crossing the river. Because they wouldn't let him in the wagon. Dogs had a different life back then.


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## Jenny720

Right and also do not think this thread was directed at only “pet owners.”


----------



## onyx'girl

Jenny720 said:


> Right and also do not think this thread was directed at only pet owners.


I think this thread was directed at the ones doing sport.


----------



## Jenny720

onyx'girl said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right and also do not think this thread was directed at only pet owners.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this thread was directed at the ones doing sport.
Click to expand...

I think it was directed to anyone who uses and ecollar or prong collar.


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## ksotto333

Our dogs are never leashed, kenneled or contained at home. I've seen them stop in full flight while chasing a rabbit down the driveway when they hit their farthest boundary. So, well behaved, obedient dogs but I use a prong when walking. Busy streets, strange dogs, and being off our property and maybe unknown behaviors aren't anything I'm going to risk. I seldom have to use the prong, but it's there if I need it. It's my back up plan, and frankly I don't care what anyone else thinks. What works for us, is what I'll use.


----------



## Jax08

onyx'girl said:


> I think this thread was directed at the ones doing sport.


:rofl:  Why bother? You saw my poor pronged and electrocuted dog's pictures today. In the woods....on a flat collar....off leash...following raccoon, fox and deer tracks.

People don't want an answer. They want their position validated. Sure dogs were trained prior to these tools. They were also beaten as a correction. Recently there was a video in a country where these tools are not allowed. The dog swinging in the air at the end of the leash and then flying thru the air. It literally made me sick to my stomach to see. I couldn't watch the whole thing. The tools aren't abusive. People are.

I would suggest people that object to their use go watch and participate in the venues in which these tools are used the most. Try a call out on a dog actively in defense. I think people would see where these are most useful. 

If a person objects to them being used in general training, then start a training business and teach people how to train their dog without them.

And if not? Well...to each their own. They are legal here in the States.


----------



## Steve Strom

Jenny720 said:


> I think it was directed to anyone who uses and ecollar or prong collar.


Since that fits me, I guess I'll just fess up to being weak and incompetent, and completely unable to communicate anything to my eager to please, biddable and compliant dogs without 9volts and a pinch. Class and cones on a flat. I'd be terrified.


----------



## Jax08

Steve Strom said:


> Since that fits me, I guess I'll just fess up to being weak and incompetent, and completely unable to communicate anything to my eager to please, biddable and compliant dogs without 9volts and a pinch. Class and cones on a flat. I'd be terrified.


You just need more cookies.

For you. Chocolate Chocolate Chip. A good sugar rush cures everything.


----------



## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> You just need more cookies.
> 
> For you. Chocolate Chocolate Chip. A good sugar rush cures everything.


I'm more the salty snacks type. I'm more comfortable with high blood pressure then cavities.


----------



## Jax08

Racing heart, Racing insulin....all the same motivators!


----------



## Jenny720

Steve Strom said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was directed to anyone who uses and ecollar or prong collar.
> 
> 
> 
> Since that fits me, I guess I'll just fess up to being weak and incompetent, and completely unable to communicate anything to my eager to please, biddable and compliant dogs without 9volts and a pinch. Class and cones on a flat. I'd be terrified.
Click to expand...

Nah! Tell people what they don’t want to hear is always more interesting. Lol!!!! It’s all about themselves anyway lol!! You don’t get to far driving down a one way road so what does is really matter anyway.


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## selzer

Interesting. 

First off, prongs are not new tools. There was something that looked very prong-like in the book written by the founder of this breed. Not a new tool. Sorry. 

Secondly, people say it is quicker to teach a dog with a prong. I disagree with that. I think a lot of people (with dogs, not DOGS) get stuck working with prong collars, and the dog is actually not as well trained as a dog whose owner uses no training collars, and a whole lot sooner is the dog with no training collar reliable in public/with distractions. I think people get suckered into believing they need tools and the tools are actually counter-productive. Of course, I am talking about the 90% of GSDs, the dogs, not the DOGS. 

I have friends with a GSL dog (that I think has some DDR back there). And it is actually a DOG. My girl was not in heat, but this PUPPY at 13 months old, sporting both an E-collar, and a prong collar, wanted to hump my two year old bitch. And his owners who have had multiple GSDs in the past, 7 of them one at a time, could not stop him, with either the prong or the e-collar. The e-collar was a very good one, and yes, they are and have been working with an experienced trainer, who is familiar with the breed and loves e-collars. I stopped the dog from humping my girl. But those tools were not working. Though, without them, these people would not be able to handle the dog at all. 

They were giving the dog a treat to put the prong collar on him. I said Bullpucky would I give the dog a treat to put a collar on him. (Only I did not say "pucky", that is for the folks here who will shrivel up and die if they heard a benign term.) I put the prong collar on the dog, without a treat. 

The thing is, if this dog sees a dog it wants to hump, the e-collar and the prong collar will not stop the dog. He is not safe in public with his people. The dog is a great dog according the the trainer and he would take him in a heart beat. He is strong, athletic, not daunted by anything, mouthy, bull-headed, full of himself, and has incredible sex-drive if nothing else. I think the dog is not a good match for the owners, who are actually very experienced working dog owners. The husband is retired from working with owners of seeing-eye dogs that need help with them. It is not a lack of experience. 

I am actually wondering if it is genetics. Personally, I think that these collars can actually increase inappropriate aggression in dogs. I have seen this. But I also think the majority of owners that have trouble/aggression issues with dogs that are using the tools, are actually also inexperienced, using the tools in lieu of other training methods they deem unnecessary or unaffordable, and are having trouble with them because you still have to follow certain training fundamentals regardless of the tool you use.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> Interesting.
> 
> First off, prongs are not new tools. There was something that looked very prong-like in the book written by the founder of this breed. Not a new tool. Sorry.
> 
> Secondly, people say it is quicker to teach a dog with a prong. I disagree with that. I think a lot of people (with dogs, not DOGS) get stuck working with prong collars, and the dog is actually not as well trained as a dog whose owner uses no training collars, and a whole lot sooner is the dog with no training collar reliable in public/with distractions. I think people get suckered into believing they need tools and the tools are actually counter-productive. Of course, I am talking about the 90% of GSDs, the dogs, not the DOGS.
> 
> I have friends with a GSL dog (that I think has some DDR back there). And it is actually a DOG. My girl was not in heat, but this PUPPY at 13 months old, sporting both an E-collar, and a prong collar, wanted to hump my two year old bitch. And his owners who have had multiple GSDs in the past, 7 of them one at a time, could not stop him, with either the prong or the e-collar. The e-collar was a very good one, and yes, they are and have been working with an experienced trainer, who is familiar with the breed and loves e-collars. I stopped the dog from humping my girl. But those tools were not working. Though, without them, these people would not be able to handle the dog at all.
> 
> They were giving the dog a treat to put the prong collar on him. I said Bullpucky would I give the dog a treat to put a collar on him. (Only I did not say "pucky", that is for the folks here who will shrivel up and die if they heard a benign term.) I put the prong collar on the dog, without a treat.
> 
> The thing is, if this dog sees a dog it wants to hump, the e-collar and the prong collar will not stop the dog. He is not safe in public with his people. The dog is a great dog according the the trainer and he would take him in a heart beat. He is strong, athletic, not daunted by anything, mouthy, bull-headed, full of himself, and has incredible sex-drive if nothing else. I think the dog is not a good match for the owners, who are actually very experienced working dog owners. The husband is retired from working with owners of seeing-eye dogs that need help with them. It is not a lack of experience.
> 
> I am actually wondering if it is genetics. Personally, I think that these collars can actually increase inappropriate aggression in dogs. I have seen this. * But I also think the majority of owners that have trouble/aggression issues with dogs that are using the tools, are actually also inexperienced, using the tools in lieu of other training methods *they deem unnecessary or unaffordable, and are having trouble with them because you still have to follow certain training fundamentals regardless of the tool you use.


The bolded, with the inexperienced, all too often the training stops when they put a prong on it. Many could not train and that is how they got to that point. They still need to learn how to train to get beyond it but they won't, so the dog lives a life of aversives.


----------



## onyx'girl

Not going to quote the post, but if the owner of an intact male cannot handle their dog with a correction collar, then that handler is obviously failing the dog. A prong collar alone should be enough to correct the behavior. 

Giving treats to put a collar on the dog is a sign that the handler isn't showing their own leadership. Don't blame the equipment or tool...put the focus on the handler.


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## cliffson1

I think the extent and scope of the different types of GS, that people have trained have a lot to do with how they view training tools. I also think that some people train dogs “ in drive” yet still maintaining high levels of obedience......I think the vast majority of these people use these tools, as opposed to training a dog out of drive( AKC obedience/rally ) or in drive but less demand for precision obedience, such as agility, may view these tools differently. &#55358;&#56631;*♀


----------



## selzer

That is why I said Bullpucky, and put the collar on the dog for them. They are experienced GSL dog owners. This dog is GSL, but it looks like a DDR. I think the dog is just a whole lot of dog. The trainer agrees. It's a LOT of dog. These people are not novices. But they may never have had a DOG before. I think they are over-matched. But they're committed to the dog, and they are working with a trainer, regularly. They are working with collars, and I had my pup (same age) up their several times, and I thought they would have to go to the prong prior to 6 months, and they did. 

The dog has been a handful since I first saw him at four months. Probably before then. The dog is still willing to use his teeth if they do something he doesn't like. And they cannot be bleeding. I think that was why she was giving the treat. He'd clip her if he did not like getting the collar on. I would put up with that crap for about 2.9 seconds. The dog is beyond my skill. I know that. That is why I hooked them up with the trainer, even though I know his tool of choice is an e-collar. But they used an e-collar on their last dog, so, they are not averse to them. 

It is a lot of dog. And yes, the prong Should be enough to handle a puppy. But it wasn't. I witnessed this. My girl ran behind my car, and poked her head out watching the three of us struggle with the boy. Strong dog. She came back over and finally, she turned and snapped at him, and I put her in the car. I should not have let that go on as long as I did, my bad.


----------



## Jax08

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bolded, with the inexperienced, all too often the training stops when they put a prong on it. Many could not train and that is how they got to that point. They still need to learn how to train to get beyond it but they won't, so the dog lives a life of aversives.


I can't agree more with this. And also people using the collars incorrectly. So many people using a prong collar for aggression when prongs are known for ramping the dogs up. Or they use a choke collar and just give light annoying jerks with it. Or an e-collar when the dog is looking right at the target and making the aggression worse.

I have seen just as much misuse of a clicker. A large, out of control Lab in PetSmart, dragging its owner toward my dog in kill mode. PetSmart trainer strolling along beside them. Click and treat. 

But again, it goes back on the people. Not the tools in question.


----------



## tim_s_adams

selzer said:


> I have friends with a GSL dog (that I think has some DDR back there). And it is actually a DOG. My girl was not in heat, but this PUPPY at 13 months old, sporting both an E-collar, and a prong collar, wanted to hump my two year old bitch. And his owners who have had multiple GSDs in the past, 7 of them one at a time, could not stop him, with either the prong or the e-collar. The e-collar was a very good one, and yes, they are and have been working with an experienced trainer, who is familiar with the breed and loves e-collars. I stopped the dog from humping my girl. But those tools were not working. Though, without them, these people would not be able to handle the dog at all.
> 
> They were giving the dog a treat to put the prong collar on him. I said Bullpucky would I give the dog a treat to put a collar on him. (Only I did not say "pucky", that is for the folks here who will shrivel up and die if they heard a benign term.) I put the prong collar on the dog, without a treat.
> 
> The thing is, if this dog sees a dog it wants to hump, the e-collar and the prong collar will not stop the dog. He is not safe in public with his people. The dog is a great dog according the the trainer and he would take him in a heart beat. He is strong, athletic, not daunted by anything, mouthy, bull-headed, full of himself, and has incredible sex-drive if nothing else. I think the dog is not a good match for the owners, who are actually very experienced working dog owners. The husband is retired from working with owners of seeing-eye dogs that need help with them. It is not a lack of experience.


I'm struggling to reconcile this picture somehow...

A GSD-experienced owner working with an experienced trainer has a dog on which they have both a prong and an e-collar, but cannot get the dog to stop humping another dog...and cannot put on the prong without a treat?!

For me this is like saying 2+2=33.


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## onyx'girl

DDR meaning what??


----------



## Jax08

onyx'girl said:


> DDR meaning what??


10 generations back, an East German jumped the wall and found a show girl. And they fell in :rose: and :dancingtree: making little East Show Germans.


----------



## Slamdunc

selzer said:


> That is why I said Bullpucky, and put the collar on the dog for them. They are experienced GSL dog owners. This dog is GSL, but it looks like a DDR. I think the dog is just a whole lot of dog. The trainer agrees. It's a LOT of dog. These people are not novices. But they may never have had a DOG before. I think they are over-matched. But they're committed to the dog, and they are working with a trainer, regularly. They are working with collars, and I had my pup (same age) up their several times, and I thought they would have to go to the prong prior to 6 months, and they did.
> 
> The dog has been a handful since I first saw him at four months. Probably before then. The dog is still willing to use his teeth if they do something he doesn't like. And they cannot be bleeding. I think that was why she was giving the treat. He'd clip her if he did not like getting the collar on. I would put up with that crap for about 2.9 seconds. The dog is beyond my skill. I know that. That is why I hooked them up with the trainer, even though I know his tool of choice is an e-collar. But they used an e-collar on their last dog, so, they are not averse to them.
> 
> It is a lot of dog. And yes, the prong Should be enough to handle a puppy. But it wasn't. I witnessed this. My girl ran behind my car, and poked her head out watching the three of us struggle with the boy. Strong dog. She came back over and finally, she turned and snapped at him, and I put her in the car. I should not have let that go on as long as I did, my bad.


These folks should get a more experienced trainer that can easily handle a GSD. Send them to me and in one session I will have their dog working nicely and under control. Plus, the dog will enjoy the training. I will take the leash and put any collar you want on this dog, no worries. I would teach the owners how to properly train this dog on a collar and how to properly correct, reward and handle their dog. Everything is relative, my definition of a DOG is different than most peoples definition. Show the dog who is in charge and life is much easier. It is also not hard or harsh to show a dog that you are in charge, this can be done easily if you have the right demeanor and skills.


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## selzer

The trainer was not there when I had my bitch there. The trainer can handle the dog. I have seen him with the dog. Of course I had my dog-pup there that day and not my bitch.


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## selzer

The dog does not look like a GSL dog. It looks like an East German dog. Or at least it has some features that gives me that impression. I need to look the pedigree up.


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## LuvShepherds

cliffson1 said:


> I think the extent and scope of the different types of GS, that people have trained have a lot to do with how they view training tools. *I also think that some people train dogs “ in drive” yet still maintaining high levels of obedience......I think the vast majority of these people use these tools, as opposed to training a dog out of drive*( AKC obedience/rally ) or in drive but less demand for precision obedience, such as agility, may view these tools differently. ��*♀


This thread asks about tools, but the real issue is drive. My first experience with a high drive WGSL was puzzling because the dog would flip into what I called “hyper mode” and I could not train it out. The instructor I was using at the time was a retired K9 trainer, a woman with GSD experience. She put my dog in a prong and I saw instant obedience. I didn’t realize the prong takes a dog out of drive, which of course, makes them seem calmer. I never thought of not training with one until recently. I now have a high drive WL. My current trainer is much better and he has taught me to train in drive. No one ever talked about that to me before. I am learning how to get him into drive and out of it myself. My goal at some point is to stop using training collars at all. Unfortunately, once a dog gets used to them it’s harder to stop using them.


----------



## Nigel

LuvShepherds said:


> This thread asks about tools, but the real issue is drive. My first experience with a high drive WGSL was puzzling because the dog would flip into what I called “hyper mode” and I could not train it out. The instructor I was using at the time was a retired K9 trainer, a woman with GSD experience. She put my dog in a prong and I saw instant obedience. I didn’t realize *the prong takes a dog out of drive,* which of course, makes them seem calmer. I never thought of not training with one until recently. I now have a high drive WL. My current trainer is much better and he has taught me to train in drive. No one ever talked about that to me before. I am learning how to get him into drive and out of it myself. My goal at some point is to stop using training collars at all. Unfortunately, once a dog gets used to them it’s harder to stop using them.


Bolded, it can do the opposite as well.


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## LuvShepherds

Nigel said:


> Bolded, it can do the opposite as well.



It can but the way I have used it in the past, I don’t use it when they are calm and quiet because I don’t need to. Handler differences.


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## cliffson1

LuvShepherds said:


> This thread asks about tools, but the real issue is drive. My first experience with a high drive WGSL was puzzling because the dog would flip into what I called “hyper mode” and I could not train it out. The instructor I was using at the time was a retired K9 trainer, a woman with GSD experience. She put my dog in a prong and I saw instant obedience. I didn’t realize the prong takes a dog out of drive, which of course, makes them seem calmer. I never thought of not training with one until recently. I now have a high drive WL. My current trainer is much better and he has taught me to train in drive. No one ever talked about that to me before. I am learning how to get him into drive and out of it myself. My goal at some point is to stop using training collars at all. Unfortunately, once a dog gets used to them it’s harder to stop using them.


Yes, drive is a crucial element in understanding why people favor different tools. Schutzhund and LE work have been with this breed since early times. Just as the training has evolved in these areas, the type dogs have evolved, and also the tools have evolved....for folks that really don’t work their dogs in drive, I can understand not needing or wanting these tools. But for the people working their dogs in drive, people NOT using these tools are the exception these days.
So as with anything else, People’s view on these tools often reflect their experiences, keeping in mind that since this breed is known for its versatility...then there is no right or wrong view on these tools.


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## Sabis mom

We use the available tools to get the desired response. 

I am sure someone has mentioned already but in generations past non compliant dogs went to "where bad dogs go". People did not waste time with them. Personally, I would rather use whatever collar, leash, fence, whatever.

I could walk Bud on a choke chain. No problem. Loose leash, nice heel, not a worry. 
My husband who is taller and heavier by a fair bit looked like he had a wild horse on the end of the leash. He is also louder and nastier then I am. The dog did not give a hoot.
My best efforts with Shadow netted me nothing. She fought like a demon to get away and get home. Two sessions with a prong had her complying and paying attention to me rather then looking for boogey men every where. And there was no "yank and crank". I simply found the key that unlocked her understanding. In fact I need fewer and lighter corrections with the prong then with a choke or a martingale.


----------



## LuvShepherds

cliffson1 said:


> Yes, drive is a crucial element in understanding why people favor different tools. Schutzhund and LE work have been with this breed since early times. Just as the training has evolved in these areas, the type dogs have evolved, and also the tools have evolved....for folks that really don’t work their dogs in drive, I can understand not needing or wanting these tools. But for the people working their dogs in drive, people NOT using these tools are the exception these days.
> So as with anything else, People’s view on these tools often reflect their experiences, keeping in mind that since this breed is known for its versatility...then there is no right or wrong view on these tools.


Thank you for explaining. For me, working in drive is brand new. I have always done classic obedience before and used eye contact and “watch” to keep my dog calm. If a dog was out of control in drive mode, the prong could get any dog back into that space. Now, I use a toy to build drive, or generalized excitement since my WL dog flips into drive easily. Our trainer believes working in drive not only gives better results for what I am teaching, it encourages the dog to become more responsive to me. I am gaining more confidence in working a high drive dog because I know how to handle him when he is in that state. But I have moved beyond classic obedience. I’m working on things like competition heeling, send out, distance commands, directional commands and other tasks beyond Sit Stay Heel Down.

I think Cesar Milan spending years telling people to only work dogs in a calm, quiet state, has resulted in too many owners misunderstanding training objectives and goals. My German Shepherds always behave in a calm state. That has never been the problem. Getting them to respond when they are amped or in an emergency is a bigger goal for me.


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## Muskeg

Getting a dog into and out of drive is the key to dog training. It's pretty easy to get a dog into drive, at least when we're talking working line shepherds, but snapping them out of it is a far more difficult. I see relatively few IPO trainers who even try to do this- most just want the drive because it looks good and don't really care if they can turn it off or not. So they build it and build it and the dog destroys crates and can't be loose in the house (generalizing here...)

Most of the more dangerous and frustrating dog behaviors are because the dog is in some level of drive. 

Figure out the drive switch and you've got the dog where you want him.


----------



## onyx'girl

Muskeg said:


> Getting a dog into and out of drive is the key to dog training. It's pretty easy to get a dog into drive, at least when we're talking working line shepherds, but snapping them out of it is a far more difficult. I see relatively few IPO trainers who even try to do this- most just want the drive because it looks good and don't really care if they can turn it off or not. So they build it and build it and the dog destroys crates and can't be loose in the house (generalizing here...)
> 
> Most of the more dangerous and frustrating dog behaviors are because the dog is in some level of drive.
> 
> Figure out the drive switch and you've got the dog where you want him.


capping drive is very important. It is part of training and teaching the dog control. Most everyone I train with in IPO understand the value of this and utilize it.


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## Jenny720

Of course any tool can be misused - ignorance is a dangerous. I was glad to meet a trainer through sheep herding they helped me much with working Max in drive which is really all I wanted. Met a trainer that helped me use the ecollar and it’s a myth that once you use it -your dependent upon the ecollar, has been my experience. Also can’t see how there can be a disconnect between owner and dog of a tool is used. Max had detected something was physically wrong me that only confirmed what I was worried about and then had no doubt - so when I heard the diagnosis I was not surprised. I don’t think I owned a dog that was so in tune with me as Max is. 

Max won’t get shot either chasing a bunch of deer through the woods during hunting season either. I also can save him from getting him in big trouble when someone one is on our property like the oil guy. Which to me is incredibly important. Max knows when the ecollar goes on or off and does not matter either way. So i don’t believe once you use tools you are dependent upon them it’s a choice to use them for back up. A leash is a tool.

Can’t see how one would need to use an ecollar for a german Shepherd in basic obedience. I think even the laziest not brightest or unfocused german Shepherd would be far more easier to train then most breeds.


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## cliffson1

onyx'girl said:


> capping drive is very important. It is part of training and teaching the dog control. Most everyone I train with in IPO understand the value of this and utilize it.


This!
Most people who train in IPO or LE do understand this, and have dogs that cap their drive. It’s like the thinking that most IPO dogs live in kennels( thus giving ammunition to theory that these dogs can’t cap there drive), this is inaccurate. Some of the top podium and national/world competitors keep there dogs in kennels because they usually have multiple dogs or train and board others dogs.....but the majority of IPO dogs in over a hundred clubs in America live in the home owned by ordinary people. So the initial premise that IPO dogs live in kennels and cannot cap their drive is usually articulated by someone that Does NOT do IPO and has met a few top people that this is the case( or heard someone else say it) and runs with it as being the norm. 
The same with training tools, I never hear discussions among IPO or LE people, who use these tools, about either the need to eliminate them, nor see a new trend in these areas; of people successful without using one of these.....usually these conversations come from folks that are not a part of this world. Just saying.
And it’s funny, because a couple of advance obedience people( going for Utility Degree in obedience) were sent to me to fix some problems and I went to their training club a couple of times and lo and behold I saw more people with pinch collars than not. 
At the end of the day, all training tools in the right hands are very good, and all training tools in wrong hands can be abusive to the dog. I usually judge the use of the training tool by the picture the dog gives me while working...is the dog upbeat, tail wagging, animated yet responsive to handler( good use of whatever tool they are using), or is the dog lethargic, anxious, deadhead, tail not wagging, etc,( then not impressed with either the handler or tool they are using).
And this applies to whether they are doing IPO or AKC obedience......the dog should reflect positively the handling and the tool used. 
As for pet owners, I really don’t see the need for remote collar in most cases, but the pinch collar has helped countless owners have a positive walking experience on leash until the dog matures enough to know what is expected on leash walk. Just my two cents.


----------



## Slamdunc

cliffson1 said:


> This!
> Most people who train in IPO or LE do understand this, and have dogs that cap their drive. It’s like the thinking that most IPO dogs live in kennels( thus giving ammunition to theory that these dogs can’t cap there drive), this is inaccurate. Some of the top podium and national/world competitors keep there dogs in kennels because they usually have multiple dogs or train and board others dogs.....but the majority of IPO dogs in over a hundred clubs in America live in the home owned by ordinary people. So the initial premise that IPO dogs live in kennels and cannot cap their drive is usually articulated by someone that Does NOT do IPO and has met a few top people that this is the case( or heard someone else say it) and runs with it as being the norm.
> The same with training tools, I never hear discussions among IPO or LE people, who use these tools, about either the need to eliminate them, nor see a new trend in these areas; of people successful without using one of these.....usually these conversations come from folks that are not a part of this world. Just saying.
> And it’s funny, because a couple of advance obedience people( going for Utility Degree in obedience) were sent to me to fix some problems and I went to their training club a couple of times and lo and behold I saw more people with pinch collars than not.
> At the end of the day, all training tools in the right hands are very good, and all training tools in wrong hands can be abusive to the dog. I usually judge the use of the training tool by the picture the dog gives me while working...is the dog upbeat, tail wagging, animated yet responsive to handler( good use of whatever tool they are using), or is the dog lethargic, anxious, deadhead, tail not wagging, etc,( then not impressed with either the handler or tool they are using).
> And this applies to whether they are doing IPO or AKC obedience......the dog should reflect positively the handling and the tool used.
> As for pet owners, I really don’t see the need for remote collar in most cases, but the pinch collar has helped countless owners have a positive walking experience on leash until the dog matures enough to know what is expected on leash walk. Just my two cents.


Exactly! Thank you!

Regarding drive and Cesar Milan, he spends his time removing drive and creating a false picture of a "calm dog." While I think some of what Cesar does is good, the show is carefully edited so the general public really does not know what he does to get a "_calm, submissive dog._" Understanding drive, capping, handling and controlling dogs I and others can see what is actually being done to some of those poor dogs. Some of Cesar's methods are similar to "the beatings will continue until moral improves." The general public does not grasp what is happening to a dog to make it calm and submissive. The real term should be "avoidance and fear." That is what you see with many of the dogs he deals with. He also uses E collars and prong collars , but hides them under bandanas. Primarily, he simply chokes dogs out to the point of asphyxiation with either a slip collar or a leash made into a slip collar. Then you see a dog lying on the ground, beaten or choked into submission and he calls it calm and submissive. The careful editing does not show the struggle the dog went through. In the vast majority of these cases this is not needed.

I prefer to work dogs in drive and spend a lot of time building drive. I also teach my dog's how to cap and internalize drive. The dogs I work with generally are loaded in drive and we keep the dog happy, joyful, in drive while maintaining a truly calm, clear headed dog. As Cliff correctly mentioned these concepts are foreign to many people and that is why the discussions about prong collars and E collars come up all the time. 

Let's see some videos of these super representatives of the breed doing some advance off lead obedience around distractions that have never had a prong collar on them. Let's get a good picture of the dog and how it works. Then I would feel better discussing tools and their use.


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## SuperG

selzer said:


> Our breed is loyal to their handler, intelligent, biddible, and bred to work with humans. How come it is considered not only acceptable, but typical to require prong collars or e-collars to control them? Is this a flaw in leadership, training, or genetics?


It just seems to be the process with the 3 GSDs I have had over the years.....not so much that any particular collar or device was required for all the GSDs I've had for my intentions.......but it is the breed's spirit, abilities, drives and intelligence that makes a GSD so desirable to me and even more...you have to earn the leadership role in the eyes of your GSD....their "loyalty" doesn't come for free....

I'm mostly going with your "flaw in leadership" option.... regardless of how one ends up in that position with their dog.

SuperG


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## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> The same with training tools, I never hear discussions among IPO or LE people, who use these tools, about either the need to eliminate them, nor see a new trend in these areas; of people successful without using one of these.....usually these conversations come from folks that are not a part of this world. Just saying.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> *As for pet owners, I really don’t see the need for remote collar in most cases, but the pinch collar has helped countless owners have a positive walking experience on leash until the dog matures enough to know what is expected on leash walk. Just my two cents.*


I could not agree more. 

A few months ago I was in a conversation about somebody who has trained, trialed and titled in IPO using all positive methods. It is not an area of interest of mine, so I have not followed its progress, but it is out there. I know some would debate that there are no truly all positive methods or that the person I heard of is only one person and one particular dog with a following for her methods. The IPO world is not swinging that way but thought it was interesting enough to warrant a mention.

And the bolded, I think that is what OP is addressing. There are alternative methods that involve training that many don't want to put in the effort because the methods are usually more time intensive with results taking longer to achieve. You stated until the dog is mature enough to know what is expected. I take that to mean until the dog is trained and mission accomplished, no tool needed anymore (for most pet owners and their dogs), but sadly that is not the way it is working and hence one of the reasons for this thread. 




Slamdunc said:


> Let's see some videos of these super representatives of the breed doing some advance off lead obedience around distractions that have never had a prong collar on them. Let's get a good picture of the dog and how it works. Then I would feel better discussing tools and their use.


Good post, Jim!

I wish they had cell phones and video recorders back in the day when I worked and titled my dogs in obedience without e collars or prongs that I could have shown you. I also think you would have really been super impressed with one of my childhood GSDs that I trained without those tools. 

Then again, define your definition of advanced obedience and that of distractions. Are you talking on a pet level? I have two dogs here right now that I have no doubt could be brought to very high levels of obedience under distractions without those tools and I am curious if we are talking the same thing. Just for the record, I don't do flashy obedience but reliable obedience off leash and at a distance especially with distractions. I do a lot of off leash hiking, often with multiple dogs.

I think the intent of OP with this thread was to address the advice given to pet owners that seek help for their dogs on here, and maybe her real life experiences with people in trouble with their GSDs looking for help. I really don't see LE coming to public forums looking for advice or asking strangers on the street or in parks on how to train their dogs although you will see some IPO people looking for the experience of other like minded people on this forum. The bulk of people coming to forums looking for help are pet people that have little desire to master and achieve more than a reliable come, sit, down, stay, focus and some behaviors personalized to their lifestyles.


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## cliffson1

@minesareworkingline....in regard to pinch collars and pet people....most of them don’t use the tool to train, rather they use the pinch to control the dog on walks until the dog matures and walks without difficulty. I don’t consider this training as much as I do manners for dog while walking on leash. And I think the vast majority of these people find success, and only a small minority come on forums looking for help. 
Unfortunately, many many people are not interested in spending the time and effort, or have the knowledge to do many aspects of the positive world. Many aren’t even interested in formal training, but just for their dog to fit into their family. So there will always be a need for tools like pinch collar because it helps them achieve their goals.


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## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> @minesareworkingline....in regard to pinch collars and pet people....most of them don’t use the tool to train, rather they use the pinch to control the dog on walks until the dog matures and walks without difficulty. I don’t consider this training as much as I do manners for dog while walking on leash. And I think the vast majority of these people find success, and only a small minority come on forums looking for help.
> Unfortunately, many many people are not interested in spending the time and effort, or have the knowledge to do many aspects of the positive world. Many aren’t even interested in formal training, but just for their dog to fit into their family. So there will always be a need for tools like pinch collar because it helps them achieve their goals.


Agreed! They don't use the tool to train, they use it to control the dog.


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## SuperG

The original question was " How come it is considered not only acceptable, but typical to require prong collars or e-collars to control them?" based on the notion that the breed is so biddable and eager to please its handler?

Mostly...all I have heard is rationalization of one's choice to use any and all available methods to shape the dog's behavior to suit the particular individual's goal(s) for the dog...doesn't matter if it is a companion dog, sports dog or any other task oriented function.

I get a bit of a laugh out of the notion that there is some kind of defining difference dependent on the "complexity" of the task(s) required....such as "train versus control". 

My rude and crude generic answer to the original question remains the same......the dog starts off with a boatload of willfulness and innate characteristics that we as humans shape for our own pursuits..... any and all methods are on the table for use....those that do it right...understanding the particular dog in front of them...never crushing the dog's "spirit" get the results desired. I draw the line at avoidance displays personally because I feel I am compromising the "loyalty" and appropriate leadership role. I've had my setbacks...so I just upped the ante appropriately.

I only have a WGSL.....but the fire in this bitch's belly she came with...is exactly what I wanted...and if it takes certain measures to exact rank and file...without crushing the dog's spirit...I have no problem using the measures required....and it is not solely a "control" issue as much as it is a developed synergy where both dog and handler flourish with the dog learning and willingly accepting its place in the overall equation.

SuperG


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## selzer

Cliffson, maybe it is different in your neighborhood, but no one around here is using the collars until their dog is mature enough, and can be walked without trouble. They use the collars forever. And they then use the collar on their next dog, and their next. and they ask me, when they can put the collar on the little eight week old furball, that doesn't need and never will, unless the owner instills the need of it into the dog. 

I am sorry. I am know I am in the minority here. But I have grown in my ability to train dogs and each dog seems easier to train than the last, each dog requires fewer adversives, fewer corrections. And the folks that come with their pets to training classes in prong collars, get new pets, and evolve only in so far as how much younger this pup gets to experience the prong collar. 

Yes, they use them to train obedience. Some folks do. And some of those same folks will not take their dog to a show because you cannot have the collar at the show, and some of them do not trust their dog without the collar. That's sad. I also find it sad that so many people are so dependent on the collars that they are willing to defend them whatever the cost. I personally think they impede the human's growth in the area of training. 

Popular opinion is against me. That's ok. I just have to watch folks to know what not to do.


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## KaiserAus

I currently use a prong - I don't like it. We didn't start using one until 10 months old, when he reactivity was getting too much for me to handle and needed something else. My main aim is to get out of the prong... when on our walks now it is all about the training, working hard so that he can ignore other dogs and we can get back to using just a flat collar. We are improving loads, the prong only needs the slightest tug now to get him to remember to focus on me when a dog walks past... I am pleased with his improvement and the prong has been a great asset in getting us to our goals.

It may very well have been handler error to begin with begin with that his reactivity got so bad or maybe it was hormones or a combination of all sorts... but we are moving forward and away from needing the prong


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## Jenny720

If I want to judge people, the capabilities of their dog and pretend to know what they actually do with their dog regardless what that is, I find that the people who have no interest in training their dog -usually are highly opposed and to prong collars even slip collars. They use a no pull harness and if that does not work, they just will simply not take their dog out at all. If their dog does not adjust to very limited exercise or limited outside stimuli and rebels they are then dumped. If at best they may try some classes at petco before dumping their dog. If they are good dog park dogs that just might save their dog from rebelling from being under exercised and all their outings interactions are taken place at a dog park.


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## cliffson1

selzer said:


> Cliffson, maybe it is different in your neighborhood, but no one around here is using the collars until their dog is mature enough, and can be walked without trouble. They use the collars forever. And they then use the collar on their next dog, and their next. and they ask me, when they can put the collar on the little eight week old furball, that doesn't need and never will, unless the owner instills the need of it into the dog.
> 
> I am sorry. I am know I am in the minority here. But I have grown in my ability to train dogs and each dog seems easier to train than the last, each dog requires fewer adversives, fewer corrections. And the folks that come with their pets to training classes in prong collars, get new pets, and evolve only in so far as how much younger this pup gets to experience the prong collar.
> 
> Yes, they use them to train obedience. Some folks do. And some of those same folks will not take their dog to a show because you cannot have the collar at the show, and some of them do not trust their dog without the collar. That's sad. I also find it sad that so many people are so dependent on the collars that they are willing to defend them whatever the cost. I personally think they impede the human's growth in the area of training.
> 
> Popular opinion is against me. That's ok. I just have to watch folks to know what not to do.


Selzer, my last five or so dogs I have trained obedience using a fur saver or leather collar, and I think it’s a good chance that the dogs I have and are preparing for LE are not shrinking violets. So yes ANY type of GS CAN be trained without these tools. But I can do this because of skill and experience in dogs and training that probably exceeds the average person....I would never expect JQ public to consistently be successful like I am so I would never suggest because I can do this it’s right for most people. Most people don’t have thousands of hours training dogs to help them with the dog that is more difficult than their training experience.


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## Jax08

A collar does not impede a person's growth as a trainer. The person impedes their own growth as a trainer. How presumptuous to assume if someone is using a correction collar of some sort they can't train a dog. Laughable actually. A good trainer knows how to speak to the dog. Will stop and think and work out training. They don't rely on compulsion to force the dog. The newest generation of dog trainers use all the animal behavior studies and understand how dogs process information.

The WDC is in Ohio this year. Everyone is welcome to watch. You can certainly tell which dogs are trained old school and which have balanced training.


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## Steve Strom

I'm going to dig my prong out today and use it. Just for the heck of it. I've used a prong on every dog I've owned, and I'm probably always going to because I like it. It makes things easy for me. I don't care if someone else doesn't want to use one, and I don't really care if someone is just using it for control, even if that isn't the ideal. I think trying to imply the use of one is some kind of low end cheat, and that putting it away forever should be some standard of excellence is nuts.


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## kekipi

Interesting thread, appreciate everyone's comments.

Lol from a newbie with a super high drive, high energy 8 month old WL I initially thought to myself "I've trained dogs for super advanced things before, I'll NEVER need a prong!" And then I quickly discovered that my training knowledge was moot given my current pups personality  we work obedience, do classes, exercise, but if she gets in the zone about another dog/dogs all of that goes out the window in less than a second.

I used a prong for a bit, but am now using a British style lead on the recommendation of our trainer. The prong was amping her up even more, while the British lead takes some of the drive out of her so she's still capable of hearing me. The goal is to not need any training collars down the road, but for now they allow us to have better communication. A better trainer could likely work her and get to that point quite rapidly, but I'm just not that person (yet).

All of that to say, I don't necessarily think that there's anything wrong or lesser about using training collars. Could I get Mahina to a successful point without them? Yes. Would she have a miserable time while learning and not be able to go as many places with me in the interim? Also yes. Lol this dog has uprooted my understandings of training, and while I have an incredible amount of respect for those who can train without a pinch or other similar implement, I do think that they make it possible for people like me to have a better chance of successfully training our dog while we are learning how to train the dog in front of us.


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## Heartandsoul

This has s a different twist concerning my use of the prong and my experience as a novice but: Since going to the prong when he was approx 1.5 yo, it has forced me to become a better thinking, insightful, problem solving trainer because I didn't want to use hard corrections on him if at all possible. It made me work harder to achieve the skills I needed to create the kind of communication and cooperation that I envision and strive for between us.

Selzer brought up the trust factor concerning the training that is put into a dog. From my own perspective and situations that I come across as a novice pet, companion owner, it isn't the trust of his obedience but being prudent and realistic acknowledging the level of his training that he is at, his temperament and mine. I trust my boy and his obedience with that in mind but wearing the prong s both prudent and in some instances allows me to bring him to places with more confidence.

Cliffson nailed it for me, I will never achieve the experience level nor have the number of opportunities that many others have to proof my boy. 

I know with my next dog, the prong won't be slapped on him/her without careful consideration of that dogs temperament, biddability, and my own abilities when the time comes.


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## SuperG

I'd just like to see what a GSD would be like with absolutely no training or direction whatsoever by a human....have that as a baseline of sorts...it would help answer the original question posed by Selzer,

Don't rightly think anybody in here has taken that path but it would be interesting to see the result.


SuperG


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## MineAreWorkingline

SuperG said:


> I'd just like to see what a GSD would be like with absolutely no training or direction whatsoever by a human....have that as a baseline of sorts...it would help answer the original question posed by Selzer,
> 
> Don't rightly think anybody in here has taken that path but it would be interesting to see the result.
> 
> 
> SuperG


I think much of that answer would be contingent upon the environment. 

As somebody who had the opportunity to grow up when there weren't leash laws and the dogs roamed and ran with the kids and might be taught sit and paw and had very little structure, the results actually were pretty good. When I look at third world countries and the behavior of those dogs, owned or unowned, it is very similar to the dogs I was familiar in my youth prior to leash laws. 

I think if you take a good look at the instinctive and natural behaviors of dogs, you would see how so much of today's bad behavior is taught via raising and training and is not the dog. 

Today's dogs deal with a lot of barrier and leash frustration as well as a lack of space and exercise, many are left alone all day, many aren't given appropriate opportunity to learn proper dog/dog skills, etc. We have created a very unnatural world for them and many demand a lot of unnatural behaviors without consideration of the dogs' needs, drives or what is natural to them.


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## Whiteshepherds

When talking about dog training people are quick to look at the dog but the skills and confidence level of a handler is equally important. Maybe people continue to use prong collars after a dog has learned to walk on a loose leash because the owner feels more secure knowing that IF the dog decides to revert back to lunging, pulling etc., the tool is in place, ready to be used when needed. 

Perhaps it’s sometimes as simple as the prong not only helps to control the dog but helps to give the handler confidence. That extra level of confidence can be the difference between a dog that’s taken for walks and the dog that goes stir crazy in an apartment because the owner is afraid to take them out in public. It can be the difference between an owner who’s willing to take a class with their dog and the owner who’s so embarrassed to have a dog that won’t behave in public they give up and stay home. People need to do whatever works for their dog and their circumstances.


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## CometDog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think much of that answer would be contingent upon the environment.
> 
> As somebody who had the opportunity to grow up when there weren't leash laws and the dogs roamed and ran with the kids and might be taught sit and paw and had very little structure, the results actually were pretty good. When I look at third world countries and the behavior of those dogs, owned or unowned, it is very similar to the dogs I was familiar in my youth prior to leash laws.
> 
> I think if you take a good look at the instinctive and natural behaviors of dogs, you would see how so much of today's bad behavior is taught via raising and training and is not the dog.
> 
> Today's dogs deal with a lot of barrier and leash frustration as well as a lack of space and exercise, many are left alone all day, many aren't given appropriate opportunity to learn proper dog/dog skills, etc. We have created a very unnatural world for them and many demand a lot of unnatural behaviors without consideration of the dogs' needs, drives or what is natural to them.


I agree with this 100%. Our first GSD, Pax. Was an abandoned litter in the local park, full GSD though quite obvious. It was 1974, I was 4. We didn't have a fence. I do not remember how much training my dad did with him, but I do know he had a standard choke chain on (it seems all big dogs had them on back then), and he was NEVER leashed. He use to go out the door with me in the yard, and he stuck with me in front of the house, in the yard. When we went places like the park or picnics, no lead. Lucky in temperament? Or just a different pace of life in general? I do remember plenty of dogs being off lead. 

Back then someone was always home, kids came right home after school (maybe played ONE sport per season)and were home the whole summer. With today's frenetic pace of life and activity schedules, does it affect everyone? I think it does.

To give a parallel..my daughter who is 11 has Gymnastics, band, soccer, swimming. If I kept her out of those things she would be a loner. Kids don't just simply come home after school anymore and play. If a home doesn't have both parents working, the stay at home parent has a full extracurricular schedule that they have to jet off to the minute the other parent gets home from work. 2 income homes are even more frenetic. 

Does it affect dogs? Who knows. It just seems like EVERYTHING is different. My daughter wanted to add an activity that started at 4pm on a weekday. I told her there wold be nobody to drop her off. She got mad and asked how I did little league at age 9 since my mom was a single mom and worked?? Then it struck me...my God, I got myself there myself on my bike. It was only 2 days of practice per week and I was home for dinner. On my own at age 9. Everything in general is so micromanaged these days.

I've always used prongs with my large breeds.Not for any reason than it became the thing to do, once they started replacing choke chains in popularity. After my parents split when I was 5 my dad wound up with like up to 8 GSDs at a time with his friend who later became his girlfriend. Hobby breeders at best, but still. They were all well behaved ((shrug)).

Even my little pit who can't take a correction, the presence of a properly fitted prong around his neck absolutely centers him. He needs but barely a twitch to remind him of things. So it is a good tool, to be sure. However I do agree that typical family life with pet dogs has edged towards less favorable for them. Not all of course, but more typical homes. Too busy, too stressed, too much in a hurry all the time for results for everything, not just dog training.


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## newlie

Whiteshepherds said:


> When talking about dog training people are quick to look at the dog but the skills and confidence level of a handler is equally important. Maybe people continue to use prong collars after a dog has learned to walk on a loose leash because the owner feels more secure knowing that IF the dog decides to revert back to lunging, pulling etc., the tool is in place, ready to be used when needed.
> 
> Perhaps it’s sometimes as simple as the prong not only helps to control the dog but helps to give the handler confidence. That extra level of confidence can be the difference between a dog that’s taken for walks and the dog that goes stir crazy in an apartment because the owner is afraid to take them out in public. It can be the difference between an owner who’s willing to take a class with their dog and the owner who’s so embarrassed to have a dog that won’t behave in public they give up and stay home. People need to do whatever works for their dog and their circumstances.


This is the post I was going to write if White Shepherd hadn't gotten to it first.

Newlie was a love with the exception of his reactivity to some dogs. Not all, but some, and there was no way of predicting which ones he would have issue with. After witnessing one or two of his lunging, barking fits, there is no way I would have taken him for a walk without a prong. As a matter of fact, it was scary for me to take him out walking WITH a prong, I was always scared he would get away from me and hurt another dog. (He did, in fact, injure another dog pretty badly, but the altercation took place under the fence in our back yard.) I had no reluctance to take Newlie to training, but whether it was the trainer's fault or mine, it never solved the problem. So, as a result, Newlie did not get to go a lot of places in his younger life, although as he got older he did settle down some. But before the ritual stoning starts, make sure that you are not living in a glass house. We can only do the best we can with what we know at the time and many of you with years of experience may remember ruefully some of your own mistakes along the way. Rocky will undoubtedly benefit from all my mistakes with Newlie.

I have had Rocky for less than a week, but thus far, he is much easier to walk than Newlie. Yesterday, I got him to walk by my side (right side works better for us than left.) for almost the whole walk. He is wearing a prong for walks now and it is too soon to tell if one day I may feel comfortable taking him out in just a flat collar. It is a possibility, but by no means certain. Some years back, my big yellow Lab literally pulled me off my feet when lunging after a squirrel. (I was walking with a neighbor and her dog and she said when she looked over, I was literally in the air.) When I landed, I landed flat on the ground, and I thought I had broken every bone in my body. I am, at least 10 tears older now and have to take that into consideration. As far as I am concerned, there is guarantee that any dog might not do the same thing. So yes, I use a prong for control. So what?

By the way, I already have an appointment with a trainer for a consultation.


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## Misha111

Slamdunc said:


> Different tools are needed for different dogs and different jobs. Not every GSD is biddable or bred to work with humans. Some are harder, more aggressive, higher drive and need more control.


Agree with the above. And different dogs have different opportunities to expend their energy levels. When i got my first girl we used to run together, pulling wasn't a problem. Then i fell pregnant so my girl wasn't having enough physical exercise, by the time I was 8 months pregnant, a pulling dog and a bump was not going to end up in a good way for me haha. I was advised to carry a rolled up newspaper and every time she pulled in front of me, to hit her on the nose with it. Funnily enough I didn't use that method but did discover I was rubbish with a choke collar and the stopping, turning around didn't work for my girl because we never got anywhere and she was still full of energy. In the end I used a head collar and had a totally different dog.
My current girl is quite shy, nervous even so she just wants to be close to me. She is also walked off leash a lot of the time. If I walk her in public a flat collar will do and if she forgets herself, simply stopping and changing direction will remind her what to do.
I think all training tools have their place but I do have a problem with how they are sold as a quick fix for all problems, their market being the average pet owner like me and one size fits all. Like anything, they are only as good as the person who uses them and picks them for the right situation. Thankfully my GSD's have been quite tolerant whilst I have practised different methods on them and in most cases intelligent enough to hold it against me as in the beginning it was obvious I didn't know what I was doing.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Misha111 said:


> Agree with the above. And different dogs have different opportunities to expend their energy levels. When i got my first girl we used to run together, pulling wasn't a problem. Then i fell pregnant so my girl wasn't having enough physical exercise, by the time I was 8 months pregnant, a pulling dog and a bump was not going to end up in a good way for me haha. I was advised to carry a rolled up newspaper and every time she pulled in front of me, to hit her on the nose with it. Funnily enough I didn't use that method but did discover I was rubbish with a choke collar and the stopping, turning around didn't work for my girl because we never got anywhere and she was still full of energy. *In the end I used a head collar and had a totally different dog.*
> My current girl is quite shy, nervous even so she just wants to be close to me. She is also walked off leash a lot of the time. If I walk her in public a flat collar will do and if she forgets herself, simply stopping and changing direction will remind her what to do.
> I think all training tools have their place but I do have a problem with how they are sold as a quick fix for all problems, their market being the average pet owner like me and one size fits all. Like anything, they are only as good as the person who uses them and picks them for the right situation. Thankfully my GSD's have been quite tolerant whilst I have practised different methods on them and in most cases intelligent enough to hold it against me as in the beginning it was obvious I didn't know what I was doing.


I know of a breeder/trainer of serious working line dogs that recommends the use of a headcollar for control until one can accomplish training. She is a member on this forum but rarely posts so I doubt if she will chime in.

I am no spring chicken and risking injury is not wise at my age. I always wanted a Caucasian Ovcharka, but they are beyond my physical abilities even when I was younger so I own a breed of dog that I can manage and control. As I age and become less capable, I will either be giving up this breed or finding one with a very soft temperament with low energy or opting for a smaller herder.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I know of a breeder/trainer of serious working line dogs that recommends the use of a headcollar for control until one can accomplish training. She is a member on this forum but rarely posts so I doubt if she will chime in.
> 
> I am no spring chicken and risking injury is not wise at my age. I always wanted a Caucasian Ovcharka, but they are beyond my physical abilities even when I was younger so I own a breed of dog that I can manage and control. As I age and become less capable, I will either be giving up this breed or finding one with a very soft temperament with low energy or opting for a smaller herder.


 Try a prong, its like finding the fountain of youth.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Try a prong, its like finding the fountain of youth.


No need to use aversives on a dog to make up for my shortcomings and nothing wrong with getting a breed within one's physical abilities.


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## newlie

Oh, ok, I will just turn Rocky back into the Humane Society where he recently came close to being euthanized because they only could afford to spend $200 a dog and the treatment for heartworm far exceeded that. Better by far that he die than be walked with a prong.


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## Sabis mom

CometDog said:


> I agree with this 100%. Our first GSD, Pax. Was an abandoned litter in the local park, full GSD though quite obvious. It was 1974, I was 4. We didn't have a fence. I do not remember how much training my dad did with him, but I do know he had a standard choke chain on (it seems all big dogs had them on back then), and he was NEVER leashed. He use to go out the door with me in the yard, and he stuck with me in front of the house, in the yard. When we went places like the park or picnics, no lead. Lucky in temperament? Or just a different pace of life in general? I do remember plenty of dogs being off lead.
> 
> Back then someone was always home, kids came right home after school (maybe played ONE sport per season)and were home the whole summer. With today's frenetic pace of life and activity schedules, does it affect everyone? I think it does.
> 
> To give a parallel..my daughter who is 11 has Gymnastics, band, soccer, swimming. If I kept her out of those things she would be a loner. Kids don't just simply come home after school anymore and play. If a home doesn't have both parents working, the stay at home parent has a full extracurricular schedule that they have to jet off to the minute the other parent gets home from work. 2 income homes are even more frenetic.
> 
> Does it affect dogs? Who knows. It just seems like EVERYTHING is different. My daughter wanted to add an activity that started at 4pm on a weekday. I told her there wold be nobody to drop her off. She got mad and asked how I did little league at age 9 since my mom was a single mom and worked?? Then it struck me...my God, I got myself there myself on my bike. It was only 2 days of practice per week and I was home for dinner. On my own at age 9. Everything in general is so micromanaged these days.
> 
> I've always used prongs with my large breeds.Not for any reason than it became the thing to do, once they started replacing choke chains in popularity. After my parents split when I was 5 my dad wound up with like up to 8 GSDs at a time with his friend who later became his girlfriend. Hobby breeders at best, but still. They were all well behaved ((shrug)).
> 
> Even my little pit who can't take a correction, the presence of a properly fitted prong around his neck absolutely centers him. He needs but barely a twitch to remind him of things. So it is a good tool, to be sure. However I do agree that typical family life with pet dogs has edged towards less favorable for them. Not all of course, but more typical homes. Too busy, too stressed, too much in a hurry all the time for results for everything, not just dog training.



You are the same age I am, I remember a lot of dogs and not a lot of fences.

But I also remember that there were those dogs that lived on heavy chains at the back of someone's property. I remember that there were no dog sports, doggie daycares or dog walkers. I remember that if no one had time to walk the dog so be it, the dog sucked it up. I remember that they ate kitchen scraps, and liked it. That the vet gave vaccines at best and most injuries meant dead dogs because mom and dad weren't coughing up a months pay to stitch up Rover. 
I remember that if I got bit I was clearly somewhere I should not have been and could probably add a lickin' to that dog bite. It would not ever have occurred to me to walk up and maul someone else's dog, yet now we are hard pressed to keep people from approaching service dogs, or police dogs.
Not so sure that the dogs or the tools have changed, I think we have. 
Forty years ago if you questioned someone's choice of dog collar they would likely have told you to get stuffed.
My dog, my rules.
We now over think, over analyze and minding your own business is a lost art.


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## Heartandsoul

newlie said:


> Oh, ok, I will just turn Rocky back into the Humane Society where he recently came close to being euthanized because they only could afford to spend $200 a dog and the treatment for heartworm far exceeded that. Better by far that he die than be walked with a prong.




This is a side tracked question but, would a rescue deny a good/approved person if they found out the person has used or uses prong collars? 

This is a really good discussion thread and I'm feeling pretty darn good about my choices. @newlie, I hope you are too.


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## newlie

Heartandsoul said:


> This is a side tracked question but, would a rescue deny a good/approved person if they found out the person has used or uses prong collars?
> 
> This is a really good discussion thread and I'm feeling pretty darn good about my choices. @newlie, I hope you are too.


I am probably not the person to answer that question as my experience is small, Rocky is my third rescue, fourth if you count Gunther who I rehomed.

Rescues/shelters want to know your particulars (name, address, phone), your driver's license number, I guess to see if you have a criminal history, if you own or rent your home, if you have a yard, if you have a fence, if you provide regular vet care, if you have other pets, if you have ever rehomed another dog and why and if you are willing to put up several hundred dollars for the dog in question. This last serves several purposes: it shows some degree of commitment, it helps to provide funds for the group to rescue other animals and it is a safety net to keep the dogs safe from people who would use them as bait dogs. In addition, they usually call your vet for a reference and then ask for several other personal references. Each application is a little different, but I was never asked by any of them what collar I would use.


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## Steve Strom

> Forty years ago if you questioned someone's choice of dog collar they would likely have told you to get stuffed.


HA, that's a cleaned up version of my current response.


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## tim_s_adams

Sabis mom said:


> Forty years ago if you questioned someone's choice of dog collar they would likely have told you to get stuffed.
> My dog, my rules.


I'd be so inclined today...if someone were to ask LOL! Great thread, I love the emotion that comes out with this topic...

I'm half tempted to buy one of them prong collars myself!


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## Sabis mom

tim_s_adams said:


> I'd be so inclined today...if someone were to ask LOL! Great thread, I love the emotion that comes out with this topic...
> 
> I'm half tempted to buy one of them prong collars myself!



Shadow is the only dog I have ever used a prong on. Also the only dog I tried an e collar on( screwed up and she got too smart).
I rode horses most of my life. A halter and rope sufficed for some, riding around on my own. In shows I stuck to a D ring snaffle mostly (English classes) or a Hackamore (western). Most horses were fine with that, but occasionally I would run into one that I had to use a curb or a kimberwick on. And that was ok, because people understand that you sometimes need a different means of communicating. I ride with light reins and a lot of leg. The former cutting horse I bought would spin if I used to much leg so I had to learn more rein, less leg. Former trail horses ignore leg and need heavy reins, and a light bit to be fair. Again different communication. I also rode side saddle sometimes which commonly requires a riding whip.
Not a single person I ever rode with questioned my choice of equipment. Ever.


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## onyx'girl

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow is the only dog I have ever used a prong on. Also the only dog I tried an e collar on( screwed up and she got too smart).
> I rode horses most of my life. A halter and rope sufficed for some, riding around on my own. In shows I stuck to a D ring snaffle mostly (English classes) or a Hackamore (western). Most horses were fine with that, but occasionally I would run into one that I had to use a curb or a kimberwick on. And that was ok, because people understand that you sometimes need a different means of communicating. I ride with light reins and a lot of leg. The former cutting horse I bought would spin if I used to much leg so I had to learn more rein, less leg. Former trail horses ignore leg and need heavy reins, and a light bit to be fair. Again different communication. I also rode side saddle sometimes which commonly requires a riding whip.
> Not a single person I ever rode with questioned my choice of equipment. Ever.


My favorite way to ride was bareback....my legs/knees were the communication. When I used a saddle, I felt disconnected. But that was with a pony....closer to the ground, lol


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## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow is the only dog I have ever used a prong on. Also the only dog I tried an e collar on( screwed up and she got too smart).
> I rode horses most of my life. A halter and rope sufficed for some, riding around on my own. In shows I stuck to a D ring snaffle mostly (English classes) or a Hackamore (western). Most horses were fine with that, but occasionally I would run into one that I had to use a curb or a kimberwick on. And that was ok, because people understand that you sometimes need a different means of communicating. I ride with light reins and a lot of leg. The former cutting horse I bought would spin if I used to much leg so I had to learn more rein, less leg. Former trail horses ignore leg and need heavy reins, and a light bit to be fair. Again different communication. I also rode side saddle sometimes which commonly requires a riding whip.
> Not a single person I ever rode with questioned my choice of equipment. Ever.


I think maybe you haven't used super-controversial equipment, or just not in front of the right person. Having run a tack shop, I know enough to be dangerous. There are bits and there are bits, as well as all the rest of the equipments. In 4-H, one is not allowed to use a mule bit when showing. I actually have a mule bit. They look wicked. You have to be in control of a 1500 pound animal or someone is going to get hurt. My nieces are 11 and have been riding for years. They go to shows. The one is better at it than the other because she is not afraid to direct the horse with a bit of force if necessary. The other really does not like to see horses being handled, in a tough, no-nonsense way that some horses seem to require. Everyone is different. 

I love horses and rode some as a kid. Being OLD now, too fat and much too likely to take a LONG time to recover from any form of accident, I prefer to enjoy horses from the ground.


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## Dainerra

Sabis mom said:


> You are the same age I am, I remember a lot of dogs and not a lot of fences.
> 
> But I also remember that there were those dogs that lived on heavy chains at the back of someone's property. I remember that there were no dog sports, doggie daycares or dog walkers. I remember that if no one had time to walk the dog so be it, the dog sucked it up. I remember that they ate kitchen scraps, and liked it. That the vet gave vaccines at best and most injuries meant dead dogs because mom and dad weren't coughing up a months pay to stitch up Rover.
> I remember that if I got bit I was clearly somewhere I should not have been and could probably add a lickin' to that dog bite. It would not ever have occurred to me to walk up and maul someone else's dog, yet now we are hard pressed to keep people from approaching service dogs, or police dogs.
> Not so sure that the dogs or the tools have changed, I think we have.
> Forty years ago if you questioned someone's choice of dog collar they would likely have told you to get stuffed.
> My dog, my rules.
> We now over think, over analyze and minding your own business is a lost art.


and don't forget the most obvious reason that we remember every dog as being well-behaved. If a dog was an issue, it was taken out and disposed of. Owners of problem dogs were given the chance to keep them confined. If they didn't take care of the problem, one of the neighbors definitely would. Plus, as kids we generally don't remember things quite accurately. Even as adults time tends to blur away the day to day grind and leave us remembering the highs and lows with little of the in-between.


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## VickyNero

I am from the UK and in this and UK forums.

I do not understand from all I have read the need at all for prong or e-collars.

To me is in an unnecessary and lazy training method used to dominate and force a dog into submission.
And yes I have read A LOT about both.

Prong and e-collars are not used or spoke off very often at all in the UK.

I have seen dogs from very aggressive to simple pulling on a lead be trained in a positive manner to cause no stress to dog or handler.
And most have a much more positive relationship.

The best saying I try and live by for my dog training is.

'TO A DOG THE WORLD IS FLAT AND THE SEA IS THE END OF THE UNIVERSE'

Meaning a dog only knows what it has been shown and only understands the simplest logic.


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## Steve Strom

Steve Strom said:


> Cleaned up version of my current response.


Point of reference.


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## Nurse Bishop

selzer said:


> I think maybe you haven't used super-controversial equipment, or just not in front of the right person. Having run a tack shop, I know enough to be dangerous. There are bits and there are bits, as well as all the rest of the equipments. In 4-H, one is not allowed to use a mule bit when showing. I actually have a mule bit. They look wicked. You have to be in control of a 1500 pound animal or someone is going to get hurt. My nieces are 11 and have been riding for years. They go to shows. The one is better at it than the other because she is not afraid to direct the horse with a bit of force if necessary. The other really does not like to see horses being handled, in a tough, no-nonsense way that some horses seem to require. Everyone is different.
> 
> I love horses and rode some as a kid. Being OLD now, too fat and much too likely to take a LONG time to recover from any form of accident, I prefer to enjoy horses from the ground.


I'm 'old' too. Get a small horse. Easier to get on, not so far to fall off.  I ride my stallion in a bitless bridle, not around mares though. Seems to me that a prong collar can be like a spade bit on a trained reining horse, its like power steering on a dog- just a light touch is needed.


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## Nurse Bishop

Horses can be pullers just like dogs can. The first and best horse of my life pulled like a freight train. She wanted to run, race, and gallop up mountains. Used a curb bit on that one called a Quick bit. This delayed my development of light hands by a several decades. Oh you could try to reward her by backing off of the bit when she complied but she went right back at it. Pulling, wanting to run. She was a thoroughbred and lived to be 40 years old.










To the English lady, my 2 year old GSD, who knows over 30 commands, wears her e collar every day. We live in cattle country and she must not chase calves, she can be shot for that by ranchers. Also, mother cows can kill a dog by crushing with their heads. If from far away we see her looking hard at calves we can tone her with that collar as a warning . If she starts after them, and she knows chasing is forbiden, we can give a correction from as far as 500 yards away. If she critters (chases) on deer or wild boars and does not obey No! there can be some consequences. There can be consequences for chasing wild boars also, such as injury or death. This is not a life of walking around on city streets here. E collar corrections are very seldom used because she knows this collar is on, she has become collar wise.


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## Heartandsoul

"To me is in an unnecessary and lazy training method used to dominate and force a dog into submission.
And yes I have read A LOT about both"

I just felt the need to address this statement from as non emotional perspective as possible. The thing about making a judgment like this is that you limit yourself to seeing how the handler and dog are engaged with each other. I will be willing to bet that each member here who choose to place a prong on their dogs neck has a phenomenal and happy relationship. This seems to be a missing component to those who feel strongly against the prong.

And the statement may end up being a self limiting attitude for expanding ones knowledge and understanding. 

I speak of this through my own experiences. When one can set aside their biases and quietly pay attention to others who are well versed with practiced application of the subject matter, even if ones own views are completely opposite, there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained.

Right now in my own world, I am surrounded by positive reinforcement only trainers. They have a wealth of knowledge that I Truely value. If I were to only limit myself to trainers who insist on prongs or what not, then I am stunting my growth. 

@VickyNero, I say this with compassion and acknowledgement that you have put a lot of training into you dog and love him as much as I have trained and love mine: My boy comes to me with bright happy eyes and enthusiasm when ever I say let's go while holding the prong out to put it on him. He sits with quiet happy anticipation while I put it on. I trained him to sit quietly through positive reinforcement and just some patience. I've trained him to so many things through engagement wth just the flat collar or no collar in the house. I won't bother going into why I use the prong because I have already stated that in this thread and other threads.

It saddens me to think that you or any other person with that mind set would probably give me a look as if I were hurting my dog in some manner and [that is so far from the actual truth as it pertains to me.] The words that are bracketed is actual fact. 


As Tim Adams stated earlier this thread stirs up a lot of emotions


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## MineAreWorkingline

Heartandsoul said:


> "To me is in an unnecessary and lazy training method used to dominate and force a dog into submission.
> And yes I have read A LOT about both"
> 
> I just felt the need to address this statement from as non emotional perspective as possible. The thing about making a judgment like this is that you limit yourself to seeing how the handler and dog are engaged with each other. I will be willing to bet that each member here who choose to place a prong on their dogs neck has a phenomenal and happy relationship. This seems to be a missing component to those who feel strongly against the prong.
> 
> And the statement may end up being a self limiting attitude for expanding ones knowledge and understanding.
> 
> I speak of this through my own experiences. When one can set aside their biases and quietly pay attention to others who are well versed with practiced application of the subject matter, even if ones own views are completely opposite, there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained.
> 
> Right now in my own world, I am surrounded by positive reinforcement only trainers. They have a wealth of knowledge that I Truely value. If I were to only limit myself to trainers who insist on prongs or what not, then I am stunting my growth.
> 
> @VickyNero, I say this with compassion and acknowledgement that you have put a lot of training into you dog and love him as much as I have trained and love mine: My boy comes to me with bright happy eyes and enthusiasm when ever I say let's go while holding the prong out to put it on him. He sits with quiet happy anticipation while I put it on. I trained him to sit quietly through positive reinforcement and just some patience. I've trained him to so many things through engagement wth just the flat collar or no collar in the house. I won't bother going into why I use the prong because I have already stated that in this thread and other threads.
> 
> It saddens me to think that you or any other person with that mind set would probably give me a look *as if I were hurting my dog in some manner *and [that is so far from the actual truth as it pertains to me.] The words that are bracketed is actual fact.
> 
> 
> As Tim Adams stated earlier this thread stirs up a lot of emotions


No disrepect, but that is how a prong works, by causing pain to the dog. If it didn't, then there would be little incentive to use it over a flat collar or a slip lead and expect different results.


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## Steve Strom

Gagging and choking is a preferable alternative?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Gagging and choking is a preferable alternative?


The comment was directed to those who view the prong as a pain free alternative. If you are going to use a prong to mitigate pulling, then one should know how it works.


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## VickyNero

Heartandsoul said:


> I say this with compassion and acknowledgement that you have put a lot of training into you dog and love him as much as I have trained and love mine: My boy comes to me with bright happy eyes and enthusiasm when ever I say let's go while holding the prong out to put it on him.


Of course I would never thing an owner would love a dog any ;less for there training method.
As the header says 'Please discuss' and everyone has the right the an opinion and this is mine.

Maybe you could explain why you use a prong as I have not read your personal experience.
I believe like with other training methods not just prongs and e-collars some ways are unneeded and there is always another training option.
I don't know yourself but I know people use these method because they don't know another method, don't have the time, use it once and see it works so keep using it.

But as I believe a dog doesn't know any different, having any collar on often means, going outside and doing something exciting.

There is a well known famous boxer that was done in UK for cruelty to his dog and what he did was filmed.
He kicked the dog very hard and threw freezing water over the dog and still it limped in pain to follow the owner back into the house.
This dog didn't know any different and just knew that was his owner and his house.

I'm not saying every dog is the same but a dog will be loyal to an owner even if it has been caused pain or emotional distress.
Often vets also find it difficult to tell in a dog is in pain because the dog doesn't yelp or let on that it is in pain.


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## Nurse Bishop

The unfortunate dog followed the cruel master because dogs are pack animals. I guarantee their cat would not have done this.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The comment was directed to those who view the prong as a pain free alternative. If you are going to use a prong to mitigate pulling, then one should know how it works.


Mine was directed at anyone that may think putting something different around their neck is automatically more humane and unable to cause pain. People should understand how a dog may perceive choking vs a pinch. There's still a person holding the leash, right?


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## cdwoodcox

I stopped reading at about page 7 or 8. What I don't understand is what Steve was hinting on. Someone is opposed to putting a prong on their dog. But, has absolutely no issues with putting a flat collar on their dog and walking around while the dog is pulling against the leash so hard that it is crushing its esophagus and having to gasp for air/choke itself out while "enjoying" its walk. Which do you suppose is the more damaging scenario. 
Now I get that a lot of people are good enough trainers that the dog doesn't choke itself out on a flat collar. However, every time I am in the park or anywhere where there is multiple dogs 1/2 of them are doing the flat collar choke out scenario. My dog Rosko used to. I went to a trainer she put a prong on him had him walking nicely in 3 minutes. Gave me the basics said go home and practice. Which I did. A lot. By the time the other dogs came along I no longer needed the prong to teach them how to walk loose leash. Now I only use the prong during IPO training.


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## cliffson1

cdwoodcox said:


> I stopped reading at about page 7 or 8. What I don't understand is what Steve was hinting on. Someone is opposed to putting a prong on their dog. But, has absolutely no issues with putting a flat collar on their dog and walking around while the dog is pulling against the leash so hard that it is crushing its esophagus and having to gasp for air/choke itself out while "enjoying" its walk. Which do you suppose is the more damaging scenario.
> Now I get that a lot of people are good enough trainers that the dog doesn't choke itself out on a flat collar. However, every time I am in the park or anywhere where there is multiple dogs 1/2 of them are doing the flat collar choke out scenario. My dog Rosko used to. I went to a trainer she put a prong on him had him walking nicely in 3 minutes. Gave me the basics said go home and practice. Which I did. A lot. By the time the other dogs came along I no longer needed the prong to teach them how to walk loose leash. Now I only use the prong during IPO training.


Because emotion or feelings often drive opinions more than logic or facts....plain and simple. 
My very close friend who is a Vet of large animal hospital hates choke chain collars....he said he has seen more trachea or throat injuries from them than all other tools combined. But choke chains look harmless, and pinch collars look menacing....so facts( in terms of injuries from use) is subordinated to the feelings or looks of the pinch collar.?*♀


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Mine was directed at anyone that may think putting something different around their neck is automatically more humane and unable to cause pain. People should understand how a dog may perceive choking vs a pinch. There's still a person holding the leash, right?


The difference with the person holding the leash is the intention, does the training continue until the desired results are achieved or does the training stop with the tool creating the illusion that the results were achieved?


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## Muskeg

Use of tools can save lives. 

A month ago I was out for a hike on a trail we frequent. A helicopter, for some reason, was hovering very low and loud in an area in front of us. The helicopter spooked a bull moose, who came striding by me and my dogs. The moose was terrified. 

Because my dogs are trained, and because I re-inforced with e-collar, my dogs stayed with me and did not bother the moose.

Keep in mind, there was a helicopter hovering practically overhead (I never figure out if it was Fish and Game or what), it was super loud, and the moose passed within a yard of me and my dogs.

Had my dogs broke, they could have been a) killed by the moose, b) shot by people in helicopter for chasing large game.

Not for one second do I feel like the training and money I put into e-collars was wasted. Sure, I like to think I might not have needed them, the dogs are trained fully to voice only under any circumstances (I'd hope), but shtuff happens in real life, and fairly frequently, and I am unwilling to take risks. 

To each their own. I don't use prongs much, for example. But have no issue with their use in general. 

As for causing a dog pain, I'm OK with that. Better brief and safe "pain" that the dog understands, than a dead dog or a severely injured one. And better that than a dog being punished for life by being kept on leash for his own safety. 

Also, I don't think training is ever really finished. It needs to be maintained and sharpened for the life of the dog. Dogs aren't machines. 

It's not like riding a bike, one and done. There are a ton of variables involved.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The difference with the person holding the leash is the intention, does the training continue until the desired results are achieved or does the training stop with the tool creating the illusion that the results were achieved?


Maybe this is where you lose me? If we're talking about walking on a leash, and the intent is no pulling, I can't picture whats an illusion vs whats results if the dog isn't pulling? Slip collar means willing?


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## Heartandsoul

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No disrepect, but that is how a prong works, by causing pain to the dog. If it didn't, then there would be little incentive to use it over a flat collar or a slip lead and expect different results.


None taken. I left a lot out when I responded. I do know that a correction with a prong can cause pain and certainly discomfort. I have actually put it around my neck and have given a good firm quick yank because I wanted to know what it was going to feel like even though human necks are different. That yank wasn't fun. That is what has caused me to state what I said in my first response on this thread a page or two back. The choice to use it has made me a better trainer to him, caused me to think more, do better. Perhaps I should have stated that I don't abuse him or dominate him with it (can't stand that word).
@vickeyNero, This is going to be pretty long: I started out as you did, I had "the prong is a cruel device, nevergoing to use it" mind set. Like you, I was struggling with reactivity, his was pretty aggressive. Like you, he had his basic commands and knew them. Great dog in the house. I wanted more for us. I also was the recipient of a nice new hip (THR). and just about finished with rehab when we got him at 8wks old. Fast forward and being planted twice due to his lunging and during that time I was constantly reading anything on this board pertaining to prongs. 

The decision came on a very wet, cold and rainy day. I took this big beautiful at the time 75-80 ish 13monthish pup out to go potty. We were walking calmly in a muddy area when Wham down I went and was dragged a few feet. It wasn't even a dog, never saw what it was but I think a cat. Anyways, I'm lying there all muddy and mad but didn't yell at him since as soon as he realized I was down he came running back to me rubbing and licking and rubbing. I just started laughing. Got up he finished his potty and we went in.

I had landed pretty hard on my new hip and it was the third time I had been taken down. I had a hard decision to make based on my need for safety. Also, with my family structure, I was/am his only source of continued daily outside activity. I researched front clip harnesses but my boy has a calcium deposit lump at base of neck near shoulder near where the harness could cause pressure, otherwise at that point I may have tried that first. With all that needed to be considered, the prong was the tool that seemed to fit my needs.

There is more to the story of our prong use journey but this is too long as is. I will say that from the moment I decided to use the prong, I placed a higher standard on myself regarding his welfare and comfort. These tools need to be used responsibly and owner owes it to their dog to do the best they can with what is allowed. I know you are in the U.K. so things are different there. For me, that prong has opened up more fun opportunities than I had hoped for. We just got our NW1 title in NoseWorks and are training to title NW2. Could I have achieved this with out that tool? Maybe, maybe not but the all positive wasn't getting him where he needed to be any time soon and with such a short life span, time was ticking and he was missing out on a lot of fun thing that has kept him happy.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe this is where you lose me? If we're talking about walking on a leash, and the intent is no pulling, I can't picture whats an illusion vs whats results if the dog isn't pulling? Slip collar means willing?


If a dog walks loose leash on a prong, can it walk loose leash on a flat collar? 

That leads me to ask is the dog's actions those of one that is constantly mindful of the aversive/discomfort and reacting to it? I ask this because the dog can't seem to willingly loose leash walk without the prong.

If I put pepper in my hand and put it on my dog's nose and he sneezes, did I teach my dog to sneeze when I put my hand on its nose? Does he sneeze when I put my hand on his nose without the pepper? Or did my use of the pepper result in an illusion that the dog is trained to sneeze when I put my hand on his nose (of course only if I have pepper in it)?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Heartandsoul said:


> None taken. I left a lot out when I responded. I do know that a correction with a prong can cause pain and certainly discomfort. * I have actually put it around my neck and have given a good firm quick yank because I wanted to know what it was going to feel like even though human necks are different. That yank wasn't fun. * That is what has caused me to state what I said in my first response on this thread a page or two back. The choice to use it has made me a better trainer to him, caused me to think more, do better. Perhaps I should have stated that I don't abuse him or dominate him with it (can't stand that word).


Utmost respect for the bolded and your judicious use of the tool because of it.


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## Heartandsoul

Thank you MineAreWorkingline. That means a lot to me.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If a dog walks loose leash on a prong, can it walk loose leash on a flat collar?
> 
> That leads me to ask is the dog's actions those of one that is constantly mindful of the aversive/discomfort and reacting to it? I ask this because the dog can't seem to willingly loose leash walk without the prong.
> 
> If I put pepper in my hand and put it on my dog's nose and he sneezes, did I teach my dog to sneeze when I put my hand on its nose? Does he sneeze when I put my hand on his nose without the pepper? Or did my use of the pepper result in an illusion that the dog is trained to sneeze when I put my hand on his nose (of course only if I have pepper in it)?


Take it off and see, then you won't have to wonder. But whichever collar, tell him he's a good boy when he's correct. He'll be happy and no one has to feel guilty.


----------



## Heartandsoul

Guys, it took forever to write that last post as I have a bad habit of proof reading many times before posting. During my writing of it, hubby took our boy on a very short walk. DH refuses to use the prong and has the strength to match my boy. During my last proof read he came in reporting that he and Sonny passed a cat laying in a driveway, several people walking, passed a small dog tied up on a porch and a chicken walking around the front yard. No aggression. A little stiffening and with Just a verbal "come on, never mind that" from DH.

Point being, no matter the tool or the method, our GSDs want to do good. Never stop the training, be mindful. God how I love my boy. Lol.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Take it off and see, then you won't have to wonder. But whichever collar, tell him he's a good boy when he's correct. He'll be happy and no one has to feel guilty.


Bingo! That is what my comments are all about. It seems that once the prong goes on, it never comes off, so the dog never gets the chance to demonstrate whether it will or will not walk loose leash without one to see if the aversive is still needed.


----------



## Steve Strom

But if the leash is loose, who cares? At that point the collar is just like any other cue to the dog, that its time for a walk or whatever.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> But if the leash is loose, who cares? At that point the collar is just like any other cue to the dog, that its time for a walk or whatever.


Why choose an aversive if it doesn't matter? I mean a ball bat might accomplish the same thing too.


----------



## Steve Strom

The collar itself isn't any more an aversive then the leash . It comes down to what you do with it, same as the slip or flat.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> The collar itself isn't any more an aversive then the leash . It comes down to what you do with it, same as the slip or flat.


The same can be said about a bat except the bat isn't poking and jabbing into a sensitive part of a dog's neck with every turn of the head or slight tug.


----------



## Nigel

We've used prong and ecollars, however the most aversive "tool" we regretfully tried was a head halter. My girls reaction to it was extreme and hard to witness. They probably do work ok for some dogs, but definitely not mine. All the no-pull whatever's out there create some level of discomfort, but I suppose they're are not as ominous looking as a prong.


----------



## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The same can be said about a bat except the bat isn't poking and jabbing into a sensitive part of a dog's neck with every turn of the head or slight tug.


Loose leash means no poking or jabbing. Whether its from a pop and release, or the dog not liking the feeling of pulling against it, if you end up with a loose leash, there was training there. If they were really that terrible, dogs wouldn't wag their tail when you bring it out.


----------



## Steve Strom

Nigel said:


> We've used prong and ecollars, however the most aversive "tool" we regretfully tried was a head halter. My girls reaction to it was extreme and hard to witness. They probably do work ok for some dogs, but definitely not mine. All the no-pull whatever's out there create some level of discomfort, but I suppose they're are not as ominous looking as a prong.


You should see the stress you can create in one of mine by witholding the reward. If he could talk, I guarantee he'll choose a prong or e over putting away his toy any day. Its always the dogs perception that matters, and the easiest and least conflicting way to do something, is always the best choice. If someone wants to wait till they have a problem and then use a different tool to solve it, ok. I'm going with teach them first, and don't let things get started.


----------



## cliffson1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Bingo! That is what my comments are all about. It seems that once the prong goes on, it never comes off, so the dog never gets the chance to demonstrate whether it will or will not walk loose leash without one to see if the aversive is still needed.


Here is where you lose me.....if the dog learns to walk without pulling ( on the pinch), then how is the pinch aversive to the dog when on walks. After all he is no longer doing the things that would cause the collar to upset some people(pain). So in reality the preference to take it off is because of the feelings toward the pinch by the owner and nothing negative with the dog. 
Again, I am neither pro/con for pinch, I look at it plainly from point of necessity or effectiveness. But I have to say I have seen very few dogs walking calmly on loose lead with pinch that appeared to be dejected because they have a pinch collar on.


----------



## cliffson1

Sorry Steve for my post being redundant to yours, when I read MAW’ post, I replied and afterwards saw you brought up the same point.


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## Steve Strom

I'm just baffled by the argument.


----------



## cliffson1

My other point is although a dog can become quite compliant on a leather collar on walks, what happens when another dog or cat enters equation on the walk???
Everything learned from pinch or leather often goes out the window, and for many people it’s better to have pinch in place than trying to control dog on leather....especially with smaller people and large strong dogs.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> Here is where you lose me.....if the dog learns to walk without pulling ( on the pinch), then how is the pinch aversive to the dog when on walks. After all he is no longer doing the things that would cause the collar to upset some people(pain). So in reality the preference to take it off is because of the feelings toward the pinch by the owner and nothing negative with the dog.
> Again, I am neither pro/con for pinch, I look at it plainly from point of necessity or effectiveness. But I have to say I have seen very few dogs walking calmly on loose lead with pinch that appeared to be dejected because they have a pinch collar on.


The preference to take it off once the dog is loose leash walking goes from one of pain when pulling to one of discomfort from wearing. Even though the dog is not pulling, it still has a ring of prongs around its neck impacting its every move of the head. A bed of nails may not pinch you if you lie still but it is still a matter of discomfort.

I am not pro or con pinch when looking at it as a matter of necessity or training. But if the dog is trained, there no longer is the need for discomfort.

Given a choice to go for a walk, I don't know any dog who will not choose to go for the walk and do it with gusto regardless of prong, slip, choke, halti, abusive owner, etc


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## cliffson1

I do not believe a properly fit pinch causes any pain whatsoever by just having it on.?*♀


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## Steve Strom

I'm sorry Mawl, but the idea that just being around their neck causes discomfort like a bed of nails is too much of a reach.


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## Sabis mom

VickyNero said:


> I am from the UK and in this and UK forums.
> 
> I do not understand from all I have read the need at all for prong or e-collars.
> 
> *To me is in an unnecessary and lazy training method used to dominate and force a dog into submission.*
> And yes I have read A LOT about both.
> 
> Prong and e-collars are not used or spoke off very often at all in the UK.
> 
> I have seen dogs from very aggressive to simple pulling on a lead be trained in a positive manner to cause no stress to dog or handler.
> And most have a much more positive relationship.
> 
> The best saying I try and live by for my dog training is.
> 
> 'TO A DOG THE WORLD IS FLAT AND THE SEA IS THE END OF THE UNIVERSE'
> 
> Meaning a dog only knows what it has been shown and only understands the simplest logic.


God willing, you will never own a dog like mine!

I was dealing with fear, aggression, prey drive and unreal tracking and hunting drive. All in a 50lb package with brain damage, poor eyesight, a weak heart and limited learning ability. I have a bum shoulder and some balance/mobility issues. The prong made a huge difference for us. By ANY standards my dog was destined to be destroyed. I came to the prong after careful consideration, like months of it. I spoke to numerous trainers, vets, behaviorists and dog handlers. I studied it's use and it's history, I considered my dogs needs as well as her quality of life. I have worked with a lot of difficult dogs, and dealt with some serious behaviors but what do you do with a dog that cannot learn except through months of repetition for each step of a behavior? I could not continue on the path we were on, and I was unwilling to stop our walks completely. And absolutely unwilling to put her down. 
I used the available tools at my disposal and found a way to communicate with my dog. Marker words are wonderful in her home where she is safe and secure and paying attention, they do not work outside her yard where she is stressed and anxious, where she has no focus and no interest in anything but fight or flight. The prong allows me to give one quick reminder and refocuses her on me long enough for her to realize that nothing is coming to kill her. We can relax and have an enjoyable walk. No repeated corrections, no fear, no stress for either of us. 
I can guarantee that there is no question of me dominating her into submission, and she runs to her prong at walk time. She bounces happily along our walk, often carrying her frog and it has become increasingly rare for me to need to correct. As long as we live in this city she will continue to wear it, for her protection and my peace of mind.
All tools are good tools, all knowledge is power. Narrow minded thinking only limits us.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> My other point is although a dog can become quite compliant on a leather collar on walks, what happens when another dog or cat enters equation on the walk???
> Everything learned from pinch or leather often goes out the window, and for many people it’s better to have pinch in place than trying to control dog on leather....especially with smaller people and large strong dogs.


Hmmm... I am a smaller woman in my sixties with working line GSDs so let me try to answer this at least in part. 

What happens when another dog or cat enters the picture? Well, only one of my dogs would react to a cat with a lunge but although she runs about 70#s, not biddable or soft, the force is not enough to be an issue for me... and that is on a flat collar. Now my oldest male dog is a dominant big dog (@90#s), he does not take to other dogs staring at him or other large male dogs that he does not know. I did try a prong on him once around other dogs, but it did not give the control a small person like me needed for a dog like him. A dominant dog collar did the trick until his obedience was where it needed to be.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> I'm sorry Mawl, but the idea that just being around their neck causes discomfort like a bed of nails is too much of a reach.


Until somebody puts a prong on their neck, properly fitted so it doesn't slide down and wears it for a length of time and comes back to share their experience that says different, I will stand by what is obvious to me.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Until somebody puts a prong on their neck, properly fitted so it doesn't slide down and wears it for a length of time and comes back to share their experience that says different, I will stand by what is obvious to me.


I'd have to see you on a bed of nails first, Lol.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> I'd have to see you on a bed of nails first, Lol.


You find a bed of nails for me and I will get your prong collar ready!


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## cliffson1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hmmm... I am a smaller woman in my sixties with working line GSDs so let me try to answer this at least in part.
> 
> What happens when another dog or cat enters the picture? Well, only one of my dogs would react to a cat with a lunge but although she runs about 70#s, not biddable or soft, the force is not enough to be an issue for me... and that is on a flat collar. Now my oldest male dog is a dominant big dog (@90#s), he does not take to other dogs staring at him or other large male dogs that he does not know. I did try a prong on him once around other dogs, but it did not give the control a small person like me needed for a dog like him. A dominant dog collar did the trick until his obedience was where it needed to be.


What about the thousands of other small people and their dogs?. Are they all as knowledgeable as you( most pet people are probably not as knowledgeable or skilled with leash as you), or is it possible that it did give them the control they needed? What if they don’t like the “ dominant collar“ for rational or irrational reasons?


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## Slamdunc

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Until somebody puts a prong on their neck, properly fitted so it doesn't slide down and wears it for a length of time and comes back to share their experience that says different, I will stand by what is obvious to me.


Sorry, but we are not dogs. We do not have fur on our necks, I don't anyway. Maybe Steve does. :laugh2:

A dog's neck is the strongest muscle in it's body. Comparing a prong collar on a person to a prong collar on a dog is a poor comparison. Sometimes what is obvious is not always what is correct.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> What about the thousands of other small people and their dogs?. Are they all as knowledgeable as you( most pet people are probably not as knowledgeable or skilled with leash as you), or is it possible that it did give them the control they needed? What if they don’t like the “ dominant collar“ for rational or irrational reasons?


There are plenty of viable options. I am saying don't be afraid to try them. I am saying don't be afraid to train your dog. The prong might just be the right tool for some people or their dog. Then again, another tool may better serve their purpose. 

We could all be stuck back in the days of KMODT if we never chose to try something new that just might be better not only in results but for our dogs and our relationships with them. That doesn't mean that KMODT is not effective. It does not mean that all positive will achieve the same results. Maybe what is best for somebody and their dog is most likely somewhere in the middle. 

But we will have to agree to disagree because I do firmly believe that the prong is a source of discomfort when inactive and you do not. Until proven, that doesn't make either of us right or wrong because unless you are holding something back on the topic and not saying, as your experience and contacts are far further ranging then mine, or unless Steve wears that prong at work tomorrow, we really don't know and the dogs aren't talking.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> Sorry, but we are not dogs. We do not have fur on our necks, I don't anyway. Maybe Steve does. :laugh2:
> 
> A dog's neck is the strongest muscle in it's body. Comparing a prong collar on a person to a prong collar on a dog is a poor comparison. Sometimes what is obvious is not always what is correct.


Well alrighty then! Steve can wear a scarf of his choice!


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## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Now my oldest male dog is a dominant big dog (@90#s), he does not take to other dogs staring at him or other large male dogs that he does not know. I did try a prong on him once around other dogs, but it did not give the control a small person like me needed for a dog like him. A dominant dog collar did the trick until his obedience was where it needed to be.


I'm trying to understand your argument here...

You are saying it's okay to use whatever tool you like as long as it's "for training", but it must be removed once training is complete? 

Is that what you do with your dog's? Who gets to decide when it's time to remove the training collars on your dogs?


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## Steve Strom

> We do not have fur on our necks, I don't anyway. Maybe Steve does.


Yeah, he does. It kinda migrated south over the years, from my head.


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## SuperG

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Until somebody puts a prong on their neck, properly fitted so it doesn't slide down and wears it for a length of time and comes back to share their experience that says different, I will stand by what is obvious to me.


I had never put a prong collar on my neck before.....but I just did after reading this....I fit it properly and I have to say...it looks pretty damned good...maybe a new fashion statement of sorts. I was rather surprised when I pulled on the active ring.....expecting it to dig into my neck but it just uniformly tightened on all the pressure points. I didn't give myself a severe correction yank on it...mainly because I didn't deserve one.

Just an observation regarding the dogs I have had and their reactions to the prong collar when it comes out.....all of them get jacked up at the sight of it....they never shy away...I suppose the prospect of a training session is the association to the collar....but all the same...if they hated it....I'd expect a different reaction.

One last thought.....I'd be willing to wager that more people have trouble clipping their dog's nails and getting their dogs into the bath/shower than putting a prong collar on their dog....based on posts on this and other dog forums. Seems kind of odd that a prong collar is more welcomed by a dog than having a bath or a nail trimming ( for some people and their dogs)???

SuperG


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## Steve Strom

Well, if nothing else this thread has firmly established a few things. I'm weak, lazy, incompetent, insensitive, uncaring, and going bald with an unflattering alteration of my hair pattern.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Bingo! That is what my comments are all about. It seems that once the prong goes on, it never comes off, so the dog never gets the chance to demonstrate whether it will or will not walk loose leash without one to see if the aversive is still needed.


 The prong comes off off (or is ineffective) when we have off leash heeling, which is the goal.


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## Steve Strom

And Mawl would like to dress me like a girl. I shoulda stayed off the internet.


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## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm trying to understand your argument here...
> 
> You are saying it's okay to use whatever tool you like as long as it's "for training", but it must be removed once training is complete?
> 
> Is that what you do with your dog's? Who gets to decide when it's time to remove the training collars on your dogs?


I am saying the goal with using aversives should be a trained dog. If the dog is trained and proofed why continue to use some aversives which IMO cause continued discomfort?

Whether a tool is still necessary or not would be contingent on the training and proofing of the dog and the end result. There is no cut and dried answer.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> And Mawl would like to dress me like a girl. I shoulda stayed off the internet.


:surprise:


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Well, if nothing else this thread has firmly established a few things. I'm weak, lazy, incompetent, insensitive, uncaring, and going bald with an unflattering alteration of my hair pattern.


Too bad you are married. >


----------



## Nurse Bishop

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The preference to take it off once the dog is loose leash walking goes from one of pain when pulling to one of discomfort from wearing. Even though the dog is not pulling, it still has a ring of prongs around its neck impacting its every move of the head. A bed of nails may not pinch you if you lie still but it is still a matter of discomfort.
> 
> I am not pro or con pinch when looking at it as a matter of necessity or training. But if the dog is trained, there no longer is the need for discomfort.
> 
> Given a choice to go for a walk, I don't know any dog who will not choose to go for the walk and do it with gusto regardless of prong, slip, choke, halti, abusive owner, etc


Bed of nails? Dogs are not like people. They have thick skin around their hairy necks evolved from fighting with other canids or prey. Sure, once they are trained they don't need it except in case of emergencies- but EMERGENCIES!- better to have and not need than need but not have.


----------



## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too bad you are married. >


Once you throw in stubborn, opinionated, and refusal to dance, I'm quite a catch.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Nurse Bishop said:


> Bed of nails? Dogs are not like people. They have thick skin around their hairy necks evolved from fighting with other canids or prey. Sure, once they are trained they don't need it except in case of emergencies- but EMERGENCIES!- better to have and not need than need but not have.


Dogs still feel pain. They might just be more tolerant of it than people.

What kind of emergency are you talking about that requires a prong on a dog? I live in the city and I believe you live in the country. I am not familiar with what you may encounter. I do take my dogs hiking where there are plenty of wildlife but no bears or moose. Still, I would not use a prong on my dogs to control them around bears if they were an issue. I would do as Muskeg if I had wildlife concerns.


----------



## SuperG

Steve Strom said:


> Once you throw in stubborn, opinionated, and refusal to dance, I'm quite a catch.



Which reminds me of a childhood joke regarding why rabbits don't have big balls...and it is basically because they refuse to dance.

SuperG


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Once you throw in stubborn, opinionated, and refusal to dance, I'm quite a catch.


Hold me back! :x


----------



## Nurse Bishop

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am saying the goal with using aversives should be a trained dog. If the dog is trained and proofed why continue to use some aversives which IMO cause continued discomfort?
> 
> Whether a tool is still necessary or not would be contingent on the training and proofing of the dog and the end result. There is no cut and dried answer.


Why continue to use adversives? Ingas e collar is on every single day. Why? If she decided to not obey and crittered after a sounder of wild boars (Texas feral hogs) she could be evicerated and killed. If she did go after a boar? No chance to retrain and proof because she would be dead.


----------



## Jax08

Steve Strom said:


> Well, if nothing else this thread has firmly established a few things. I'm weak, lazy, incompetent, insensitive, uncaring, and going bald with an unflattering alteration of my hair pattern.


But you have a nice dog!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Nurse Bishop said:


> Why continue to use adversives? Ingas e collar is on every single day. Why? If she decided to not obey and crittered after a sounder of wild boars (Texas feral hogs) she could be evicerated and killed. If she did go after a boar? No chance to retrain and proof because she would be dead.


Hmmm... that was not the response I directed to you saying that if I had wildlife concerns such as Muskeg that I would do as she does which is to use an e collar.

I stated I would not use a prong in that situation.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

You couldn't use a prong in this situation. This is not like walking a dog around a city out here. She needs the e collar (basically a distant prong) because it could save her life.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Nurse Bishop said:


> You couldn't use a prong in this situation. This is not like walking a dog around a city out here. She needs the e collar (basically a distant prong) because it could save her life.


??? I have not argued for or against e collars. My comments have all been directed toward the extended use of prong collars.


----------



## onyx'girl

When Onyx was going through her reactive aggression stage, a prong ramped her up. I had to learn how to use it for control, but not so much as a correction. I ran two lines, two collars(one flat, and a prong) on her and it worked much better. 

If we take away the tools, the toolbox is empty. Then the toolbox fills up with clothes to dress up the dogs or fancy leashes and colorful fabric collars and bandanas. 
I'd rather have actual working tools in my toolbox.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Yet an e collar is like a distant prong collar. There are two contact points that have to be moved around several times a day.


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## MineAreWorkingline

If you keep the e collar on the dog all day, yes.


----------



## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am saying the goal with using aversives should be a trained dog. If the dog is trained and proofed why continue to use some aversives which IMO cause continued discomfort?
> 
> Whether a tool is still necessary or not would be contingent on the training and proofing of the dog and the end result. There is no cut and dried answer.


I agree with you totally in principle, and pointing this out might help some novice owners put using a prong collar in a better perspective. So if it helps to enlighten that's great! 

But at the end of the day for my dog it's ALWAYS going to be my call...ALWAYS! 

As others have pointed out, there are many many reasons for using a prong collar beyond training and proofing - safety of both the dog and the handler IMO being at the top of that list! 

There was another thread in the forum recently in which the OP mentioned that a trainer at their group training class was pointedly telling her to have her puppy neutered, and at a relatively young age. That conversation was totally out of line, but it didn't stop many people from posting facts in support of neutering later if at all. IMHO that's wrong. If the conversation is inappropriate - just plain don't have it. It may seem off-topic, but I view this one as the same thing. It is not up to anyone else to decide if my use of any training tool, or feeding schedule, or training methods, or anything else I do with my dog is okay with them or not. It's simply not their decision to make...I don't have to justify using a prong everyday, or not using one at all. It's really not upto anyone but me...


----------



## onyx'girl

Nurse Bishop said:


> Yet an e collar is like a distant prong collar. There are two contact points that have to be moved around several times a day.


I would never, ever leave either on a dog unless we are actively training. I see the don Sullivan miracle collar on a dog often, wears it 24/7 and it is so unfair to that dog. My dogs go naked unless we are off property or training. The collar that is placed on them also triggers them to know the task we will be doing. I use fursaver for tracking and obedience, harness sometimes for protection and flat or prong for obedience, change it up depending on what we are working on.
to rotate the points is not something I do, I know where I want them as far as e-collar goes, and also where the clasp on the prong is placed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> I agree with you totally in principle, and pointing this out might help some novice owners put using a prong collar in a better perspective. So if it helps to enlighten that's great!
> 
> But at the end of the day for my dog it's ALWAYS going to be my call...ALWAYS!
> 
> As others have pointed out, there are many many reasons for using a prong collar beyond training and proofing - safety of both the dog and the handler IMO being at the top of that list!
> 
> There was another thread in the forum recently in which the OP mentioned that a trainer at their group training class was pointedly telling her to have her puppy neutered, and at a relatively young age. That conversation was totally out of line, but it didn't stop many people from posting facts in support of neutering later if at all. IMHO that's wrong. If the conversation is inappropriate - just plain don't have it. It may seem off-topic, but I view this one as the same thing. It is not up to anyone else to decide if my use of any training tool, or feeding schedule, or training methods, or anything else I do with my dog is okay with them or not. It's simply not their decision to make...I don't have to justify using a prong everyday, or not using one at all. It's really not upto anyone but me...


That is what people used to say with harsher methods of training like beating a dog and look where that got them.


----------



## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is what people used to say with harsher methods of training like beating a dog and look where that got them.


It's a HUGE can of worms is what it is. 

I don't beat dogs, and I don't personally use a prong collar on them either, but I know many people who do. And I don't care at all what their reasoning is. It isn't any of my business. But I do know a few dogs that should not be allowed in public without one, or an e-collar. They are just not reliable enough, and likely never will be.

So again, I get your point. Training tools of any kind are not a solution. They are designed to aid training, not replace it. And their use can be discontinued once an acceptable level of obedience is achieved. Got it.

But you've been at this long enough that I'm sure you've seen dogs for which the degree of confidence you'd like - or need - to see is never quite achieved. What do you do then, wash them, muzzle them, leave them home, get rid of them, put them down? How is that a better solution? And again, who decides?

Can of worms!


----------



## cliffson1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There are plenty of viable options. I am saying don't be afraid to try them. I am saying don't be afraid to train your dog. The prong might just be the right tool for some people or their dog. Then again, another tool may better serve their purpose.
> 
> We could all be stuck back in the days of KMODT if we never chose to try something new that just might be better not only in results but for our dogs and our relationships with them. That doesn't mean that KMODT is not effective. It does not mean that all positive will achieve the same results. Maybe what is best for somebody and their dog is most likely somewhere in the middle.
> 
> But we will have to agree to disagree because I do firmly believe that the prong is a source of discomfort when inactive and you do not. Until proven, that doesn't make either of us right or wrong because unless you are holding something back on the topic and not saying, as your experience and contacts are far further ranging then mine, or unless Steve wears that prong at work tomorrow, we really don't know and the dogs aren't talking.


No problem, except for inactive pinch causing pain, I agree with everything else you wrote?


----------



## cliffson1

onyx'girl said:


> When Onyx was going through her reactive aggression stage, a prong ramped her up. I had to learn how to use it for control, but not so much as a correction. I ran two lines, two collars(one flat, and a prong) on her and it worked much better.
> 
> If we take away the tools, the toolbox is empty. Then the toolbox fills up with clothes to dress up the dogs or fancy leashes and colorful fabric collars and bandanas.
> I'd rather have actual working tools in my toolbox.


Also, as the toolbox empties the uses of the dog decreases....can you imagine a recruit going through basic training using all positive and no aversives ?, sometimes preparation for unforeseen requires strong preparation.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> But you've been at this long enough that I'm sure you've seen dogs for which the degree of confidence you'd like - or need - to see is never quite achieved. What do you do then, wash them, muzzle them, leave them home, get rid of them, put them down? How is that a better solution? And again, who decides?
> 
> Can of worms!


What do you do with a dog that ignores or powers through a prong or an e collar, or gets ramped up? 

What do you do then, wash them, muzzle them, leave them home, get rid of them, put them down? How is that a better solution? And again, who decides? 

To answer your question about not achieving a certain level of confidence in a dog, I know what I would do, and that is try strong and proofed obedience training. Just an aside to your comment, I am not sure why anybody would have a problem with putting a muzzle on a dog that may cause harm to another, that would be the responsible thing to do. I know of people who have had to put a muzzle on their own dogs to work them until a certain level of control is achieved, some dogs are like that. No shame in being responsible or proactive.

Try this experiment Tim. The next time somebody comes on here with a problem with their dog, ask yourself a few questions. If that dog was truly trained how to sit, would this behavior be under control? How about if this dog was really trained how to heel or to focus? Would the problem still exist? Think about it. 

A dog can't jump on you if it is sitting, a dog can't pull on a leash if it is heeling, a dog can't react to another dog if it is heeling and focusing on you. Obedience that has been generalized and proofed is often the solution.


----------



## Steve Strom

I disagree with different things, but the only reason I post on these threads is because in some of the posts there's always this implication, unintentional, but some intentional, that there's some kind of moral issue about using a flat vs a prong and its a failure because you NEED a prong. My point is that you don't have to NEED a prong to use one, and my choice is to not wait until you may end up in a position where you do.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> I disagree with different things, but the only reason I post on these threads is because in some of the posts there's always this implication, unintentional, but some intentional, that there's some kind of moral issue about using a flat vs a prong and its a failure because you NEED a prong. My point is that you don't have to NEED a prong to use one,* and my choice is to not wait until you may end up in a position where you do.*


I think this is what OP's reason was in starting this thread. Why do people think that a German Shepherd may end up in a position where they might need a prong when GSDs are supposed to be so intelligent, biddable and easily trained?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think this is what OP's reason was in starting this thread. Why do people think that a German Shepherd may end up in a position where they might need a prong when GSDs are supposed to be so intelligent, biddable and easily trained?


Because they are also big, strong, powerful dogs who can be aggressive, can have a ton of drive, can be pretty into prey, can be protective, and sometimes the prong helps with these things

I have put an old dog own due to cancer who never wore a prong in his life. My 11 year old girl has never had a prong on in her life. My 2.5 yr young dog is the very definition of biddable and easily trained but he also weighs about 90lb of solid muscle and he is as strong as a horse and we had a minor issue with squirrels during the part of our walk that needs to be done on leash. Squirrels and the neighbor's dog actually. 
He was realizing how strong he was compared to me, I could tell. The prong solved that with minimal use and minimal correction.

I'll go ahead and say I even use the hugely unpopular head halters on him sometimes in other situations where he is on a short leash needs to stay by my side and I like it for subtle communication and he isn't bothered by it. For that dog in that situation, I like the head halter. 

I never put a head halter on my old male in his life either. 

I used to be into absolutes and I no longer am into absolutes when it comes to training dogs.


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## Steve Strom

If I gave my thoughts on the motivation of the op, I'd get banned. German Shepherds are supposed to be a lot of things, doesn't mean it all exactly matches what you read. People are people, something simple and easy for one, may not be for another. That applies to every piece of training, living with, even feeding. Its not a clear measure of someones competence or their dogs temperament.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Well, the reason I posted had nothing to do with OP but with her dogs because they are showlines. I just wanted to point out that the comment applies to working line dogs too.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think this is what OP's reason was in starting this thread. Why do people think that a German Shepherd may end up in a position where they might need a prong when GSDs are supposed to be so intelligent, biddable and easily trained?


Intelligent, biddable and easily trained. 
Sometimes to intelligent for their own good, biddable when it works with the rest of their character and easily trained whether we want them to learn a behavior or not.
Other breed traits include loyalty and courage. 
So my intelligent, loyal and brave dog may determine that I am to stupid to be trusted with my own safety and take matters into their own paws.
Add full and correct dentition and conformation appropriate for work, with drives sufficient to sustain said work.


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## cliffson1

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Because they are also big, strong, powerful dogs who can be aggressive, can have a ton of drive, can be pretty into prey, can be protective, and sometimes the prong helps with these things
> 
> I have put an old dog own due to cancer who never wore a prong in his life. My 11 year old girl has never had a prong on in her life. My 2.5 yr young dog is the very definition of biddable and easily trained but he also weighs about 90lb of solid muscle and he is as strong as a horse and we had a minor issue with squirrels during the part of our walk that needs to be done on leash. Squirrels and the neighbor's dog actually.
> He was realizing how strong he was compared to me, I could tell. The prong solved that with minimal use and minimal correction.
> 
> I'll go ahead and say I even use the hugely unpopular head halters on him sometimes in other situations where he is on a short leash needs to stay by my side and I like it for subtle communication and he isn't bothered by it. For that dog in that situation, I like the head halter.
> 
> I never put a head halter on my old male in his life either.
> 
> I used to be into absolutes and I no longer am into absolutes when it comes to training dogs.


Your first paragraph is so true of many excellent dogs in the breed, and with such dogs the pinch has a proven track record of being effective, efficient, and the collar of choice by not only many novices, but also the most knowledgeable, competent trainers/handlers I know. 
Is it for everyone, heck no, is it best collar for softer dogs of the breed...prolly not, but to question it’s value with the type of dogs in the first paragraph is baffling. Jmo


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## thegooseman90

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A dog can't jump on you if it is sitting, a dog can't pull on a leash if it is heeling, a dog can't react to another dog if it is heeling and focusing on you. Obedience that has been generalized and proofed is often the solution.


I only have one issue with this. What about in the meantime before the dog is trained to sit, heel, etc? He's still jumping on you, still pulling etc. These dogs are smart, but some people give them too much credit. You can't give them a manual. You can't have a lengthy discussion about making the right choices. They really truly understand two things: rewards and consequences. Now they're not smart enough to understand your lectures about behaving properly, but they're just smart enough to learn when they can behave a certain way with no consequences. So in the meantime before they're really trained, his self rewarding tugging after a squirrel or jumping on you for love is greater than the consequence of a reward being withheld.


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## Jax08

I trained my dog to sit, down, blind search, track, heel, don't jump.....all without a prong....with a world champion as my trainer. 

Just pointing out the holes in that theory. General obedience can be taught without compulsion. Teach, teach, teach....proof.

And btw.... I do use a prong and an ecollar. Sometimes paired together.


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## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What do you do with a dog that ignores or powers through a prong or an e collar, or gets ramped up?
> 
> What do you do then, wash them, muzzle them, leave them home, get rid of them, put them down? How is that a better solution? And again, who decides?
> 
> To answer your question about not achieving a certain level of confidence in a dog, I know what I would do, and that is try strong and proofed obedience training. Just an aside to your comment, I am not sure why anybody would have a problem with putting a muzzle on a dog that may cause harm to another, that would be the responsible thing to do. I know of people who have had to put a muzzle on their own dogs to work them until a certain level of control is achieved, some dogs are like that. No shame in being responsible or proactive.
> 
> Try this experiment Tim. The next time somebody comes on here with a problem with their dog, ask yourself a few questions. If that dog was truly trained how to sit, would this behavior be under control? How about if this dog was really trained how to heel or to focus? Would the problem still exist? Think about it.
> 
> A dog can't jump on you if it is sitting, a dog can't pull on a leash if it is heeling, a dog can't react to another dog if it is heeling and focusing on you. Obedience that has been generalized and proofed is often the solution.


MAWL we are in agreement on these points. I respect your experience and opinion...and in most cases we agree entirely, for most issues people run into strong obedience is an effective solution.

But the one item that I was referring to as a "can of worms", you've consistently sidestepped in your responses...who decides whether or not my choice for my dog is acceptable? 

I don't have to be a dog abuser to want to reserve my right to make my own informed decisions on training a dog! And it is in no way contingent on agreement with anyone else, in order for me to retain that right. It's pretty simple...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

thegooseman90 said:


> I only have one issue with this. What about in the meantime before the dog is trained to sit, heel, etc? He's still jumping on you, still pulling etc. These dogs are smart, but some people give them too much credit. You can't give them a manual. You can't have a lengthy discussion about making the right choices. They really truly understand two things: rewards and consequences. Now they're not smart enough to understand your lectures about behaving properly, but they're just smart enough to learn when they can behave a certain way with no consequences. So in the meantime before they're really trained, his self rewarding tugging after a squirrel or jumping on you for love is greater than the consequence of a reward being withheld.


It is not really hard to take a handful of treats and teach a very young puppy only a few weeks old a foundation in marker training: yes, no, and good. Sit is quite easily accomplished in a very young puppy too. Marker training is a phenomenal tool that can be used successfully on very young puppies and many professionals embrace it. Oh, and by the way, it works on adult dogs too!

Very young dogs instinctly follow, so unless you are in traffic, you don't need to leash, do take advantage of this stage to imprint and train your puppy. Many people start teaching heel off leash and add the leash down the road. Just put a treat in your little fingers with the puppy in proper position and away you go! May I suggest that you don't use tools, like a leash on a puppy, which can create a lot of bad behaviors, until you have learned how not to create those behaviors with that tool. > :lurking:

Seriously, I am not making fun of you. Everything is a learning curve and different people have different goals with their dogs. But do you see anything difficult about what I suggested? I am no dog trainer. However, I might be able to help you (you as in you or a general you) with a few things with your dog based on my experience, but I rarely post anything to that end. It has also been my experience that if it is GSD people looking for help with their dog and the person responding doesn't say put a prong on it, help and advice falls on deaf ears.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> MAWL we are in agreement on these points. I respect your experience and opinion...and in most cases we agree entirely, for most issues people run into strong obedience is an effective solution.
> 
> But the one item that I was referring to as a "can of worms", you've consistently sidestepped in your responses...who decides whether or not my choice for my dog is acceptable?
> 
> I don't have to be a dog abuser to want to reserve my right to make my own informed decisions on training a dog! And it is in no way contingent on agreement with anyone else, in order for me to retain that right. It's pretty simple...


It would be nice if people would/could make their own decisions. However, when other people do not approve of the methods, these decisions can be taken away from like they have been in other countries.

To be more specific, contrary to what you posted earlier, it IS your business what the next guy is doing with their dog. Their actions just may be the catalyst that takes your rights away from you to choose to use certain tools or not.


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## cliffson1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It would be nice if people would/could make their own decisions. However, when other people do not approve of the methods, these decisions can be taken away from like they have been in other countries.
> 
> To be more specific, contrary to what you posted earlier, it IS your business what the next guy is doing with their dog. Their actions just may be the catalyst that takes your rights away from you to choose to use certain tools or not.


Based on issues of similar principles, I don’t see this country trying to eliminate aversive tools.?*♀


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## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> Based on issues of similar principles, I don’t see this country trying to eliminate aversive tools.?*♀


I can't say the same, I have heard of such movements here.


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## cliffson1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I can't say the same, I have heard of such movements here.


It’s possible....we must keep educating people on the correct use of all trainings and tools!


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## thegooseman90

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is not really hard to take a handful of treats and teach a very young puppy only a few weeks old a foundation in marker training: yes, no, and good. Sit is quite easily accomplished in a very young puppy too. Marker training is a phenomenal tool that can be used successfully on very young puppies and many professionals embrace it. Oh, and by the way, it works on adult dogs too!
> 
> Very young dogs instinctly follow, so unless you are in traffic, you don't need to leash, do take advantage of this stage to imprint and train your puppy. Many people start teaching heel off leash and add the leash down the road. Just put a treat in your little fingers with the puppy in proper position and away you go! May I suggest that you don't use tools, like a leash on a puppy, which can create a lot of bad behaviors, until you have learned how not to create those behaviors with that tool. > :lurking:
> 
> Seriously, I am not making fun of you. Everything is a learning curve and different people have different goals with their dogs. But do you see anything difficult about what I suggested? I am no dog trainer. However, I might be able to help you (you as in you or a general you) with a few things with your dog based on my experience, but I rarely post anything to that end. It has also been my experience that if it is GSD people looking for help with their dog and the person responding doesn't say put a prong on it, help and advice falls on deaf ears.


Yes you're right BUT they don't stay very young dogs for very long and their motivations change. A word without an action can become meaningless very quickly. Each scenario is unique and the dog won't have the same motivation to earn whatever treat is in your hand. For instance the dog goes to chase a cat and you give him your negative marker "No!" But he keeps going anyway. He realized "hey! I didn't have to listen to that lady and so what if I didn't get a cookie because I got this cat instead!!" Meanwhile if that negative marker has an action attached to it he may think more along the lines of "no this cat isn't worth the correction I get if I don't listen". 

I understand you don't need a prong, and a prong isn't required, but using one doesn't mean you've failed as a trainer or your dog is lacking in genetics or temperament.


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## MineAreWorkingline

thegooseman90 said:


> Yes you're right BUT they don't stay very young dogs for very long and their motivations change. A word without an action can become meaningless very quickly. Each scenario is unique and the dog won't have the same motivation to earn whatever treat is in your hand. For instance the dog goes to chase a cat and you give him your negative marker "No!" But he keeps going anyway. He realized "hey! I didn't have to listen to that lady and so what if I didn't get a cookie because I got this cat instead!!" Meanwhile if that negative marker has an action attached to it he may think more along the lines of "no this cat isn't worth the correction I get if I don't listen".
> 
> I understand you don't need a prong, and a prong isn't required, but using one doesn't mean you've failed as a trainer or your dog is lacking in genetics or temperament.


Wait a minute, are you saying you should attach a correction to the negative marker in case your dog might ignore the negative marker at some point in time? You don't think that applying a correction for no reason other than to make it a part of the negative marker might create conflict between you and your dog damaging your relationship? What makes you think that the GSD won't honor the negative marker based on biddability and a willingness to please as stated in OP's original comment?

As a dog matures and motives change, so should your training. You need to train under a variety of circumstances, add cues, chain commands, use different locations, add leashes, graduate to long lines, distractions, etc., then you start to proof your work by applying corrections. If the dog fails to perform then a correction can be a light leash pop on a flat collar, it could be less, it could be more. Build on the foundation you laid.

The other day Slamdunc posted he uses prongs on his dogs. By no means do I consider him a failed trainer or his dogs as lacking in genetics or temperament. If anything, Slam would be one of my go to guys if I had a question on dog training and his dogs are the epitome of what I think good dogs should be. Although I must admit, I think his current partner is a bit more dog than I would want to try to handle with or without a prong. But...if given opportunity to raise Boru from a puppy... I'd have to say bring it on. 

You should not assume who I think is a failure as a dog trainer when I what I have been discussing in this thread has been self limiting dog owners choosing not to expand. And absolutely nowhere did I disrespect anybody's dogs by referring to them as less than based on temperament or genetics. 

One more thing, I have seen Slamdunc mention a book repeatedly when people are looking for good reads on dog training: Purely Postive Training - Companion to Competition by Sheila Booth... perhaps?


----------



## thegooseman90

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Wait a minute, are you saying you should attach a correction to the negative marker in case your dog might ignore the negative marker at some point in time? You don't think that applying a correction for no reason other than to make it a part of the negative marker might create conflict between you and your dog damaging your relationship? What makes you think that the GSD won't honor the negative marker based on biddability and a willingness to please as stated in OP's original comment?
> 
> As a dog matures and motives change, so should your training. You need to train under a variety of circumstances, add cues, chain commands, use different locations, add leashes, graduate to long lines, distractions, etc., then you start to proof your work by applying corrections. If the dog fails to perform then a correction can be a light leash pop on a flat collar, it could be less, it could be more. Build on the foundation you laid.
> 
> The other day Slamdunc posted he uses prongs on his dogs. By no means do I consider him a failed trainer or his dogs as lacking in genetics or temperament. If anything, Slam would be one of my go to guys if I had a question on dog training and his dogs are the epitome of what I think good dogs should be. Although I must admit, I think his current partner is a bit more dog than I would want to try to handle with or without a prong. But...if given opportunity to raise Boru from a puppy... I'd have to say bring it on.
> 
> You should not assume who I think is a failure as a dog trainer when I what I have been discussing in this thread has been self limiting dog owners choosing not to expand. And absolutely nowhere did I disrespect anybody's dogs by referring to them as less than based on temperament or genetics.
> 
> One more thing, I have seen Slamdunc mention a book repeatedly when people are looking for good reads on dog training: Purely Postive Training - Companion to Competition by Sheila Booth... perhaps?


First of all remember we're using "you" as a general term here. I don't mean you specifically. Since you alluded to OP you should know my statements in my closing were in regards to that first post. I'm not saying you ever accused anyone of being a failure. 

Now on to business. No I'm not saying you should issue a correction just for the sake of it and yes with some dogs that could lead to a conflict. So could a lot less with the right dog. What I'm saying is that the dog associates that discomfort with the negative marker because if you're doing it right he should get that marker and a correction every time he messes up. Let's use gate/door training here as an example. When I approach a door with my dog he's expected to sit, wait while I open the door and until he's released before going out. If I push that gate open and he goes to bolt out he gets a correction and a no. Repeat the exercise and he gets it right - then we go out he gets a reward etc. That no meant something to him after a few repetitions. When his butt would start to lift a simple no got it back on the ground quickly. We got to the point where we didn't even bother with the leash anymore. He was great. Well life threw a little curve ball and I haven't had as much time to work him lately so he's a bit rusty. The other morning I open the gate he sits until he saw something more interesting and my "no" meant nothing to him. Wanna guess how the rest of the day went? No more sitting at the gate and waiting like a gentleman. He just bolted into the yard and did his thing. He didn't care about whatever treat I may have had, he learned that quickly that my no meant nothing. Tomorrow morning we'll have a little refresher and I can bet that he'll remember why the word "no" should be respected.


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## SuperG

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What makes you think that the GSD won't honor the negative marker based on biddability and a willingness to please as stated in OP's original comment?


I appreciate what you are trying to suggest....but there is a bit of an assumption that a GSD pup comes into this world from day one with all this "biddability and willingness to please" a two legged creature called a human. This premise that you are suggesting.....provided by the OP.....is an unknown quantity if it remains free of human modification/training.

SuperG


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## MineAreWorkingline

thegooseman90 said:


> First of all remember we're using "you" as a general term here. I don't mean you specifically. Since you alluded to OP you should know my statements in my closing were in regards to that first post. I'm not saying you ever accused anyone of being a failure.
> 
> Now on to business. No I'm not saying you should issue a correction just for the sake of it and yes with some dogs that could lead to a conflict. So could a lot less with the right dog. What I'm saying is that the dog associates that discomfort with the negative marker because if you're doing it right he should get that marker and a correction every time he messes up. Let's use gate/door training here as an example. When I approach a door with my dog he's expected to sit, wait while I open the door and until he's released before going out. *If I push that gate open and he goes to bolt out he gets a correction and a no. *Repeat the exercise and he gets it right - then we go out he gets a reward etc. That no meant something to him after a few repetitions. When his butt would start to lift a simple no got it back on the ground quickly. We got to the point where we didn't even bother with the leash anymore. He was great. Well life threw a little curve ball and I haven't had as much time to work him lately so he's a bit rusty. The other morning I open the gate he sits until he saw something more interesting and my "no" meant nothing to him. Wanna guess how the rest of the day went? No more sitting at the gate and waiting like a gentleman. He just bolted into the yard and did his thing. He didn't care about whatever treat I may have had, he learned that quickly that my no meant nothing. Tomorrow morning we'll have a little refresher and I can bet that he'll remember why the word "no" should be respected.


The bolded, a little cart before the horse? 

I have more than a few suggestions for you to correct this.. starts with working your sits under more distractions and then proofing, but I don't think you are asking.


----------



## thegooseman90

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bolded, a little cart before the horse?
> 
> I have more than a few suggestions for you to correct this.. starts with working your sits under more distractions and then proofing, but I don't think you are asking.


Nope not all. This isnt something that's new to him. He's been doing this since 3-4 months and his commands under distraction, sit included, were pretty solid. He hasn't been trained much in the last month and slipped up but in doing so he learned there wasn't any consequences for it. He didn't care that I might've rewarded him for not breaking the command he was more interested in something else.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

SuperG said:


> I appreciate what you are trying to suggest....but there is a bit of an assumption that a GSD pup comes into this world from day one with all this "biddability and willingness to please" a two legged creature called a human. This premise that you are suggesting.....provided by the OP.....is an unknown quantity if it remains free of human modification/training.
> 
> SuperG


Agreed. 

There is a bit of assumption saying ALL GSDs come with biddabiity and willingness to please (and they don't) but don't think some don't come out of the box like that.


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## MineAreWorkingline

thegooseman90 said:


> Nope not all. This isnt something that's new to him. He's been doing this since 3-4 months and his commands under distraction, sit included, were pretty solid. He hasn't been trained much in the last month and slipped up but in doing so he learned there wasn't any consequences for it. He didn't care that I might've rewarded him for not breaking the command he was more interested in something else.


Which out of curiosity leads to another dilemma, how long can an average dog go without its training relapsing, but that is another thread.

But I don't agree that it was a one month time lapse on training that caused this.


----------



## Jax08

tim_s_adams said:


> who decides whether or not my choice for my dog is acceptable?
> 
> I don't have to be a dog abuser to want to reserve my right to make my own informed decisions on training a dog! And it is in no way contingent on agreement with anyone else, in order for me to retain that right. It's pretty simple...



yup yup yup yup yup


----------



## Jax08

cliffson1 said:


> Based on issues of similar principles, I don’t see this country trying to eliminate aversive tools.?*♀


I sure hope you are correct. There is one person in the west trying to push something thru right now. PETA rules. 

But these movements are also pushed thru by people who have never had a working dog with a mind of their own. People who have dogs with no drive. That have no concept of what a "dominant" dog really is.


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## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Which out of curiosity leads to another dilemma, how long can an average dog go without its training relapsing, but that is another thread.


Please start that thread, it could very likely enlighten lots of people...not to mention, the sheer thrill of the debate that would, no doubt, ensue LOL!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> Please start that thread, it could very likely enlighten lots of people...not to mention, the sheer thrill of the debate that would, no doubt, ensue LOL!


Go ahead, I got dogs to train. :grin2:


----------



## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Agreed.
> 
> There is a bit of assumption saying ALL GSDs come with biddabiity and willingness to please (and they don't) but don't think some don't come out of the box like that.


Some just require a stronger leader than others. But given an appropriate leader, I've personally never seen one that did not have an incredible drive to please an accepted leader (barring nerve disorders and the like of course). Have you?


----------



## Jax08

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Which out of curiosity leads to another dilemma, how long can an average dog go without its training relapsing, but that is another thread.


I think it depends on the dog. We've done very little obedience in the last few winter weeks, but Seger (at 4 years) comes in strong every time. With my girl, every day was a new day. 

I also don't think you can expect a young dog with just foundation training to maintain like a 4 yr old. But that is for sport dogs.

For the average pet dog, I think the commands and knowledge are used daily in every day life. Basic manners that are reinforced regularly.


----------



## onyx'girl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Which out of curiosity leads to another dilemma, how long can an average dog go without its training relapsing, but that is another thread.
> 
> But I don't agree that it was a one month time lapse on training that caused this.


strong foundation should prove the training....relapsing is not an issue. 
Teach articles on the track and don't do them for six months. Reintroduce and the dog bangs them out. Foundation is stressed for a reason.


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## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> Some just require a stronger leader than others. But given an appropriate leader, I've personally never seen one that did not have an incredible drive to please an accepted leader (barring nerve disorders and the like of course). Have you?


I have one that I would say is not interested in pleasing me but he lights up when working with me, if that makes sense. He wants to be part of a team.


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## MineAreWorkingline

onyx'girl said:


> strong foundation should prove the training....relapsing is not an issue.
> Teach articles on the track and don't do them for six months. Reintroduce and the dog bangs them out. Foundation is stressed for a reason.


Agreed!


----------



## Steve Strom

tim_s_adams said:


> Some just require a stronger leader than others. But given an appropriate leader, I've personally never seen one that did not have an incredible drive to please an accepted leader (barring nerve disorders and the like of course). Have you?


Without re hashing my personal failings, I would describe Doc as having a limit to biddable, and not having an incredible desire to please. He's very trainable, and always ready with no quit in him, but eager to please? No. There's some strong independence in him.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Which out of curiosity leads to another dilemma, how long can an average dog go without its training relapsing, but that is another thread.
> 
> But I don't agree that it was a one month time lapse on training that caused this.


Formal ob stuff, Chaos and my Rott, Andy, lost most of it after about a year. I mean the precision. Basics like a recall, they'd still come, but no more front. That kinda thing.


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## cliffson1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Which out of curiosity leads to another dilemma, how long can an average dog go without its training relapsing, but that is another thread.
> 
> But I don't agree that it was a one month time lapse on training that caused this.


I would answer that question with: It depends on the foundation of the training.


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## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> I would answer that question with: It depends on the foundation of the training.


I agree with very much with this.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Without re hashing my personal failings, I would describe Doc as having a limit to biddable, and not having an incredible desire to please. He's very trainable, and always ready with no quit in him, but eager to please? No. There's some strong independence in him.


Do you think that biddability is linked to independence? I noticed that in my oldest and am seeing it in my youngest.


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## lhczth

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you think that biddability is linked to independence? I noticed that in my oldest and am seeing it in my youngest.


The GSD is supposed to be biddable, but they are also supposed to be able to work independently and not be totally reliant on our commands and control.


----------



## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you think that biddability is linked to independence? I noticed that in my oldest and am seeing it in my youngest.


His independence shows mainly in that he's perfectly content relaxing in the yard without me. When I say limit to the biddable, there are certain things he wants to do his way, and its pretty hard to not be in some conflict with him over it. You can feel the "Get away from me" in him. The things Lisa mentioned, "They're supposed to be" don't come with exact measurables and some things would never show if you never go into some different situations.


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## Jax08

It's pretty hard to shut down a dog in a high state of drive without some kind of aversion. Can it be done? I'm sure it can by someone that really, really knows how. But for 99% of people? I doubt it. Even for my dog who is extremely biddable and handler sensitive. He definitely has his "hold my beer" moments.


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## selzer

lhczth said:


> The GSD is supposed to be biddable, but they are also supposed to be able to work independently and not be totally reliant on our commands and control.


I actually agree with this. I think we should expect a dog that works with a shepherd, which means uses his own abilities and thought processes to do the will of the shepherd, without any collar whatsoever. That is what the breeding ought to produce. Definitely a dog that will work on its own to achieve a goal, but when the true-handler gives a command, the dog does the command. 

There seems to me many schools of thought. Some seem to think that the application of aversives, when appropriate, will instill respect in a dog of good character. And that respect is necessary for the dog to take the handler serious. I may believe the first idea, but not the second. 

Another is that a dog without at least some memory of what a human can and will do to him, may not obey the human when they find themselves in a situation where either fear or panic is present, or when the rewards such as chasing a squirrel or eating a mound of some unknown substance. I disagree with this as well. If training is good, both where there is chaos or where this the possibility of good reward, the dog will look to its handler first, I think, especially if the dog has been trained without physical aversives.


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## Jenny720

I think dogs who are well trained and dogs who are just naturally bideable without much formal training and or combinations of both will often look to owners and of course that includes training with physical adversaries as that to comes with rewards -sadly even with misused physical adversaries the look may be different though and coming from somewhere else. Dogs are dogs they are not perfect and every action may not be stellar. Even animals have off days especially in adolescence. My dogs are off leash often. Luna is great off leash with no ecollar and can be called off deer but for her safety I’m going to use an ecollar off leash on hikes as you never know what the day will bring. Truly no person can make one believe their dogs are inadequate, unhappy or not stellar dog owners because they choose to use a prong or ecollar.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nigel

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I can't say the same, I have heard of such movements here.


Yup, and there are other "movements" that if they get their way you wouldn't have a dog to put a collar on.


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## Sabis mom

A very wise man once told me that even the most obedient dog is going to disobey a command one day, and it will be at the worst possible moment.
I know a lady who owned a SCWT. He was 5 years old, they lived on a very quiet dead end street. Every morning she would walk with him to the mailbox at the end of the road, off leash. Had done this for years, he heeled perfectly. Went out one morning and the dog broke and bolted across the street after a cat, right in front of the only vehicle to travel that road that morning. The dog was killed instantly.


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## MineAreWorkingline

A collar or leash can break as well as the handler losing their grip, nothing new there. It happens. The prong is notorious for coming apart and I know of a dog that was hit by a car and killed when that happened.


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## tc68

I wish we could give thumb's downs on some of these comments. Some people are just so negative. If people want to use prongs, chokes, martingales, gentle leaders, harnesses, and/or etc., who are you to judge their choices? No need to insult them either by telling them to adopt according to their "physical abilities."


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## Nurse Bishop

You are supposed to have a backup line on with the prong collar in case of failure. And they do come apart.
Or clip it with a caribener to the dogtag collaer like this


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## MineAreWorkingline

It is interesting that some people view the questionable use of aversives on animals in our care as negative while others view the actual people as negative who question the practice because of those people's concerns about the treatment of these animals.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

I'm not doubting it but i would love to see how a prong fails.... maybe my dogs just don't pull but I've never once had a prong come apart. I can't imagine how hard they would have to pull to make that happen, and I can't think of anything in the world that would make them pull like that unless they were extremely scared of something...


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## MineAreWorkingline

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I'm not doubting it but i would love to see how a prong fails.... maybe my dogs just don't pull but I've never once had a prong come apart. I can't imagine how hard they would have to pull to make that happen, and I can't think of anything in the world that would make them pull like that unless they were extremely scared of something...


From what I hear, it could be something as simple as a weak link.


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## Nurse Bishop

The prong can come apart from having a link pressed or twisted and it disassociates with the one it was connected to. These carabiners you can get in all weights and sizes and they are cheap insurance. Look at the picture. You connect it to the dead ring not the live ( D shaped) ring and also to the flat collar.


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## SuperG

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is interesting that some people view the questionable use of aversives on animals in our care as negative while others view the actual people as negative who question the practice because of those people's concerns about the treatment of these animals.



I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.....I'm easily confused.

I'd guess most people just don't enjoy being told that their training practice(s) and equipment involved somehow makes one person more ethical/better/moral/caring etc. than the other.......My hunch would be most everybody in this forum truly cares about their dog(s)....probably more than they care about many humans.

I think when the debate over the use of aversives takes place....most everyone employs aversive measures whether they understand it or not and/or will admit it or not.... no big deal.......but...we're all responsible for our own dogs and the results our training protocols produce....

SuperG


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## car2ner

so today I was walking my younger dog and the neighbors dog came over to greet us. She is an old gal whom I know was only coming to say hello. My dog was on a martingale and yes, I use aversion. I wanted her to know in no uncertain terms that barking at the old gal was not the way to go. But I not only gave her the NO, I gave her the YES. I told her to heel. There was no reward or game I could have used that would have trumped her desire to bark at the neighbor dog. 

Do I teach that way? No, I prefer to teach with rewards and play. When my gal was heeling, I rewarded with the release of pressure. Did I enjoy this, no...but she has no business picking an argument.


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## selzer

When I was 8 years old, my teacher gave me 42 swats for not having 21 things done on the lists she gave me for homework that she wanted me to do over for whatever reason. In those days, every teacher had a paddle hanging in a prominent position in our little Lutheran School. Some of them had their names on them. Some had holes in them to increase the velocity and give that nice, whippy sound when you swing them through the air. Others preferred the solid thwap! that a hole-less paddle would make on a back-side. 

At home things were not much better. My mother gave me 20 more that night for getting in trouble at school. Only she used a coffee pot extension cord, which could produce some impressive welts. My dad had a stick which he printed, THE BOARD OF EDUCATION on, that was his tool of choice, though belts and tennis shoes were also effective and on hand. 

The kids in the neighborhood all carried scars from one sort of aversive or another. The little Tadero boys sometimes had rope burns down their legs. Other kids' parents liked the razor strap, probably because it sounded wicked. Like me saying, "Prong Collar" to my dogs, makes them straighten up and fly right even though they have never seen one. J.J. Murphy's old man threw him off the top bunk of a bunk bed and broke his arm, then made him sit in the corner for a month so his bruises could heal. But most of us felt that Mr. Murphy went a bit overboard, and J.J. repeating the 2nd or 3rd grade 3 times kind of played in favor of that. 

Somewhere along the way, we changed our thinking about how to motivate children to behave or excel. And parents like mine whose children were as much as 16 years apart, from oldest to youngest. Well, they slow up as they age. The frequency and duration of punishment for the younger children is not nearly as severe as it was for those first few. There is a learning curve to everything I suppose. 

Now, we all know dogs are not children. Dogs do not need to grow up and move out and drag their own backside out of bed and off to work every day and give a reasonable account of themselves without being prodded along by a parent. My extension-cord wielding mother says, "never strike a dog." And she raised her first GSD with never striking him, no prong collars, no chokers. She was old and recovering from colon cancer and the chemo that goes with it, and the blockage and surgery that went after it. 

Well, as the years and the dogs add up, I find the need for aversives -- even verbal ones, go way down from dog to dog. It is because I have gained experience, not because the dogs are so much better. A friend of mine whose dog just passed in the last few months with 2 legs to her UD finished, she told me yesterday that she never was in trouble. She never had to scold her. She was the best dog. But, this lady also had a stream of dogs prior to getting this pup at 7 weeks. No doubt the dog was a nice dog, but the handler was experienced. 

If by experience, we learn that Beneful dog food is horrendous, and we come on here and explain why we should not feed that, are we going to offend the folks that use Beneful? Should that matter? 

Most of the good trainers I have known began in the days of the Koehler method and choke chains. They evolved over the the years. They trifled with Positive Only, with varying levels of success. Most of them park for a while on prong collars and a judicious amount of treats, for a number of reasons. For one thing, most of the people they work with are novices. Novices often don't stick and naught. Sorry, but only a percentage of novices ever go on to become journeymen or professionals in any endeavor. The prong collar gives a level of instant control and success that will bring people back next week, and the next, and the next. 

I see the "slap a prong collar on the dog to get it to stop pulling" training method, kind of like the alter the dog between 4 and 6 months veterinary practice. I disapprove. I know it isn't popular, but I see it like telling folks that playing with laser pointers with their dogs is dangerous. Maybe I experienced too many wacks to instill in me that desire to assimilate to what the rest of the group is doing. To care. I don't. I don't care about offending the ego of dogs' owners. I care about dogs. 

I think there may be dogs out there for which the use of training devices are the best way to go. I think the vast majority of GSDs do not fall in this category. And I believe that folks would learn more if they chose a different path when it came to training their dogs. Folks used to believe that choke chains were the way to go. Now most prong people see choke chains as evil or dangerous. There were pioneers in training who believed that first, and were probably given the same crud by the trainers and users who found the tool effective.


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## selzer

car2ner said:


> so today I was walking my younger dog and the neighbors dog came over to greet us. She is an old gal whom I know was only coming to say hello. My dog was on a martingale and yes, I use aversion. I wanted her to know in no uncertain terms that barking at the old gal was not the way to go. But I not only gave her the NO, I gave her the YES. I told her to heel. There was no reward or game I could have used that would have trumped her desire to bark at the neighbor dog.
> 
> Do I teach that way? No, I prefer to teach with rewards and play. When my gal was heeling, I rewarded with the release of pressure. Did I enjoy this, no...but she has no business picking an argument.


I love the approach of telling the dog what TO DO, instead of trying to get a dog not to do something, or Acting before the dog Reacts. It works for me. 

I was walking Ninja in a park, because there was another car there, I had her on lead, and when we came out of the woods, an idiot with a yorkie-mix had his dog off lead. Ninja could have chewed her up and spit her out in a heartbeat. Ninja was a fighter, a real strong bitch. But I told her, "LEAVE IT" and "HEEL" and that darn little dog circled, growled, chased, barked and lunged at us all the way back to my car. But Ninja did "LEAVE IT" and waited for me to unlock the car and got in without having broken her heel or made any move toward the dog. Never had any type of aversion-collars used. I put a CGC and an RN on her by the time she was 2. No other training.


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## SuperG

selzer said:


> Somewhere along the way, we changed our thinking about how to motivate children to behave or excel. .


I'm curious......did this change in thinking make positive impact or just a slew of new problems?

SuperG


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## MineAreWorkingline

SuperG said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.....I'm easily confused.
> 
> I'd guess most people just don't enjoy being told that their training practice(s) and equipment involved somehow makes one person more ethical/better/moral/caring etc. than the other.......My hunch would be most everybody in this forum truly cares about their dog(s)....probably more than they care about many humans.
> 
> I think when the debate over the use of aversives takes place....most everyone employs aversive measures whether they understand it or not and/or will admit it or not.... no big deal.......but...we're all responsible for our own dogs and the results our training protocols produce....
> 
> SuperG


I do use aversives while training. So if you feel that I have come across as portraying that I don't, I hope this clarifies things. I have nothing against aversives as part of a training program with thought out end results with an eye on not using aversives if that is the better path to follow with a particular dog or circumstance. I think many have agreed with that on here.

OP could have asked why not use a choke chain? What happened to KMODT? After all, everybody did use those tools and methods at one time and many achieved title worthy results. I think if she had asked those questions, the answer would have been because there are better, kinder, and more effective tools and methods and the thread would have died off with one page.

For some reason this thread has gotten derailed into a why not use a prong thread with people who use prongs feeling insulted and some even hurling insults from one which was started by questioning why somebody would use a prong for basic training as well as why so many choose to do so on a breed that is supposedly such an intelligent, biddable and willing to learn dog. I am not sure why most don't see the dichotomy in OP's question and therein lies the misunderstanding.


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## newlie

I am getting exasperated and so it is against my better judgement that I am posting again on this subject. I should just leave it alone but I can't help myself.

Maybe I missed it somewhere but I don't see anyone faulting those members who don't want and/or need to use prongs or e-collars. More power to you, that's great, and I mean that with all sincerity. The finger pointing all appears to be coming from the other direction. Some of you think that we should believe as you do and if we don't, we are wrong-headed, sloppy, careless, callous, unevolved, don't care about dogs and therefore shouldn't be allowed to have dogs. And then you (generic you) wonder why people are offended.

I tell you quite plainly that, in all likelihood, I will end up keeping a prong on Rocky just as a fail-safe. I don't yank and crank with it per se, in fact most of the time it just sits there, but I know it is there if I need it. Now, if somebody wants to come here and train my dog so that he doesn't need a prong and then is willing to issue me a written guarantee that if Rocky ever (and I mean ever) pulls me down and breaks a bone or in front of a car that you will pay all my medical expenses, then there might be some room for discussion.


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## Jack's Dad

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is interesting that some people view the questionable use of aversives on animals in our care as negative while others view the actual people as negative who question the practice because of those people's concerns about the treatment of these animals.


Most people aren't interested in being interogated or lectured to. IMO


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## selzer

SuperG said:


> I'm curious......did this change in thinking make positive impact or just a slew of new problems?
> 
> SuperG


With children? I don't know. We were treated pretty brutally in today's standards. Some brat was just pulled into a standing position by a gym teacher for the pledge and they are charging her with child abuse. Most of us are pulling our own weight in society and doing ok. We stood for the pledge, even if there were a few JWs that wouldn't actually recite it. 

Youngsters now are being raised by parents many of whom were raised with a lack of discipline and a lack of responsibility. Because there is a second part of that. Responsibility. We did not always have babysitters. Older kids carried keys and they watched younger kids, until folks came home from work. We were in charge of various chores like cooking dinner and were responsible for our own homework, from the git-go. 

So, like the trainer who wants to train his dog to leave the counters and trash alone even when he is not there, our folks trained us by putting the fear of God, and our parents' wrath into us, because there would be many times, where there was no supervision and we must do what we must do, and must not do what we must not do. 

But then parents went to the opposite extreme. Children never hit or disciplined at all. Children never left alone for a moment. Children bring home their homework and parents check it over and help them with it, and pack it into their bag for the next day. Children never expected to clean their rooms, pick up their clothes, do laundry, cook, wash dishes, etc. 

Not sure if the answer is extreme discipline or total lack -- both seem to net the same results: children who feel unloved by parents/guardians. Not sure how the healthy responsibility plays with the discipline, but it seems to. 

I think it is possible to discipline children effectively. So that they have a healthy respect for their parents, but are not afraid to come to them when things are not right. So that they have a healthy self-image and are neither spoiled or smothered, or made into shy, fearful or angry resentful people. Of course some is nature and some is nurture. 

People are really complex, complicated. I know I brought them up. But, at least in education, we have evolved over the years. Maybe some behaviors are worse without the paddle on the black board, and the knowledge that you will be taken immediately into the hall and beaten if you do not perform within the range of acceptability.


----------



## selzer

newlie said:


> I am getting exasperated and so it is against my better judgement that I am posting again on this subject. I should just leave it alone but I can't help myself.
> 
> Maybe I missed it somewhere but I don't see anyone faulting those members who don't want and/or need to use prongs or e-collars. More power to you, that's great, and I mean that with all sincerity. The finger pointing all appears to be coming from the other direction. Some of you think that we should believe as you do and if we don't, we are wrong-headed, sloppy, careless, callous, unevolved, don't care about dogs and therefore shouldn't be allowed to have dogs. And then you (generic you) wonder why people are offended.
> 
> I tell you quite plainly that, in all likelihood, I will end up keeping a prong on Rocky just as a fail-safe. I don't yank and crank with it per se, in fact most of the time it just sits there, but I know it is there if I need it. Now, if somebody wants to come here and train my dog so that he doesn't need a prong and then is willing to issue me a written guarantee that if Rocky ever (and I mean ever) pulls me down and breaks a bone or in front of a car that you will pay all my medical expenses, then there might be some room for discussion.


You're exasperated, because you are taking it personally. I do not single you out as an evil prong-user. Nope. I would like to see, in average, people less dependent on them. I think they are over used on ordinary dogs. That is an opinion. That, an a buck fifty will buy you a cup of coffee. 

I have not suggested banning them, or ridiculing those who use them. They are the current rage. How do you hold people who use them as evil or wrong or unevolved (whatever), when most trainers suggest them? When most other GSD owners, not only encourage their use, but suggest they are indespensible? And that is where I have the problem. The suggestion is made that if you have a dog that doesn't NEED one, you have a couch potato GR in a GSD suit. 

And, not all GSDs that are trussed with prong or e-collars show inappropriate aggression, but too many do. And in some cases the collars play a roll in that. So it is not without danger that novices are using these tools with little or no training, and then fail to move forward at all because the dog, when in the collar is manageable, or so they believe.


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## SuperG

MineAreWorkingline said:


> the answer would have been because there are better, kinder, and more effective tools and methods and the thread would have died off with one page.


I think you nailed it......we only know what we know...and I am very certain the future will yield better methods and tools which might make us scratch our heads regarding today's methods and tools.....such is the evolution of dog training.

SuperG


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> You're exasperated, because you are taking it personally. I do not single you out as an evil prong-user. Nope. I would like to see, in average, people less dependent on them. I think they are over used on ordinary dogs. *That is an opinion. That, an a buck fifty will buy you a cup of coffee. *
> 
> I have not suggested banning them, or ridiculing those who use them. They are the current rage. How do you hold people who use them as evil or wrong or unevolved (whatever), when most trainers suggest them? When most other GSD owners, not only encourage their use, but suggest they are indespensible? And that is where I have the problem. *The suggestion is made that if you have a dog that doesn't NEED one, you have a couch potato GR in a GSD suit. *
> 
> And, not all GSDs that are trussed with prong or e-collars show inappropriate aggression, but too many do. And in some cases the collars play a roll in that. So it is not without danger that novices are using these tools with little or no training, and then fail to move forward at all because the dog, when in the collar is manageable, or so they believe.


First bold, yes, the theme has been that only prong users can have opinions, those who work without prongs and have opinions are labeled judgmental and holier than thou.

Second bold, yes, GSDs who are trained without prongs are GSDs that are then labeled as less than GSDs than ones that are trained with prongs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

SuperG said:


> I think you nailed it......we only know what we know...and I am very certain the future will yield better methods and tools which might make us scratch our heads regarding today's methods and tools.....such is the evolution of dog training.
> 
> SuperG


If you ever have the chance, read the KMODT. Imagine using it on your dog. I still get sick to the stomach when I think about how I trained my softer GSDs back then under a professional because that was the way they trained back then.


----------



## dogma13

MineAreWorkingline said:


> First bold, yes, the theme has been that only prong users can have opinions, those who work without prongs and have opinions are labeled judgmental and holier than thou.
> 
> Second bold, yes, GSDs who are trained without prongs are GSDs that are then labeled as less than GSDs than ones that are trained with prongs.


The original post asked if people used prongs because of a flaw in leadership,training,or the genetics of their dogs.Inferring the use of the tool suggested the owners or dogs are somehow flawed.Tends to put people on the defense immediately.
Nevertheless the many different opinions and perspectives were informative.


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you ever have the chance, read the KMODT. Imagine using it on your dog. I still get sick to the stomach when I think about how I trained my softer GSDs back then under a professional because that was the way they trained back then.


What is it that makes you sick? Did you actually read the book, or did you just read the objectionable parts? 
I ask because I have it in my spare room on a book shelf and have had since I was about 16. You do understand that the method he used is still widely used right?


----------



## selzer

dogma13 said:


> The original post asked if people used prongs because of a flaw in leadership,training,or the genetics of their dogs.Inferring the use of the tool suggested the owners or dogs are somehow flawed.Tends to put people on the defense immediately.
> Nevertheless the many different opinions and perspectives were informative.


Well, the breed was created before e-collars for herding dogs that would definitely work off-lead with their shepherd-leaders. No way for an active herder to make use of a prong, an e-maybe. But the dog would have to be biddible, intelligent and like to work with its person. 

And seeing reels of the early k9s working in Germany, engaging with lost people or drunk people with no police officer hanging onto any leash/collar. 

I guess I see the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs, because they could not possibly be used the way they were used. And I am interested in what folks think about that. 

Unfortunately, most folks are unable to believe that the breed has evolved into something different, modern law enforcement requires different traits, or what have you. Instead they are are thinking that I am talking about them, personally, and their dogs. I have no clue on here who uses a prong, even now. I cannot connect user names to training implements. Can't do it. But it is so personal. 

Either the dogs have changed, or the handling has changed, or both.


----------



## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> What is it that makes you sick? Did you actually read the book, or did you just read the objectionable parts?
> I ask because I have it in my spare room on a book shelf and have had since I was about 16. You do understand that the method he used is still widely used right?


I had picked up a book by that Brittish woman back in the '70s that was on TV. She would say Walkies!!!! and dogs would just do what she wanted. I got the book at a second hand book store, and saved it to read while my dad was in getting an MRI. 

I was pretty disgusted. I cannot remember the details, though.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> With children? I don't know. We were treated pretty brutally in today's standards. Some brat was just pulled into a standing position by a gym teacher for the pledge and they are charging her with child abuse. Most of us are pulling our own weight in society and doing ok. We stood for the pledge, even if there were a few JWs that wouldn't actually recite it.
> 
> Youngsters now are being raised by parents many of whom were raised with a lack of discipline and a lack of responsibility. Because there is a second part of that. Responsibility. We did not always have babysitters. Older kids carried keys and they watched younger kids, until folks came home from work. We were in charge of various chores like cooking dinner and were responsible for our own homework, from the git-go.
> 
> So, like the trainer who wants to train his dog to leave the counters and trash alone even when he is not there, our folks trained us by putting the fear of God, and our parents' wrath into us, because there would be many times, where there was no supervision and we must do what we must do, and must not do what we must not do.
> 
> But then parents went to the opposite extreme. Children never hit or disciplined at all. Children never left alone for a moment. Children bring home their homework and parents check it over and help them with it, and pack it into their bag for the next day. Children never expected to clean their rooms, pick up their clothes, do laundry, cook, wash dishes, etc.
> 
> Not sure if the answer is extreme discipline or total lack -- both seem to net the same results: children who feel unloved by parents/guardians. Not sure how the healthy responsibility plays with the discipline, but it seems to.
> 
> I think it is possible to discipline children effectively. So that they have a healthy respect for their parents, but are not afraid to come to them when things are not right. So that they have a healthy self-image and are neither spoiled or smothered, or made into shy, fearful or angry resentful people. Of course some is nature and some is nurture.
> 
> People are really complex, complicated. I know I brought them up. But, at least in education, we have evolved over the years. Maybe some behaviors are worse without the paddle on the black board, and the knowledge that you will be taken immediately into the hall and beaten if you do not perform within the range of acceptability.


I think we have swung too far on everything. I think there was a real need for more care about ethics in animal training, how much punishment, what kind, ect... 

We may have been too harsh with kids too. We subjectively...I am not old enough to have raised kids in that era.

I guess I just think that we have been wildly swinging from one end of the spectrum to the other and both the extremes are almost as bad as each other and we seem to have lost an incredible amount of common sense just in my lifetime!!

My feeling is that discipline, even harsh discipline, that is fair, consistent and comes from someone who loves you and cares about the big picture is not a bad thing. Too tired to try and say what I think the opposite of that is.


----------



## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> Well, the breed was created before e-collars for herding dogs that would definitely work off-lead with their shepherd-leaders. No way for an active herder to make use of a prong, an e-maybe. But the dog would have to be biddible, intelligent and like to work with its person.
> 
> And seeing reels of the early k9s working in Germany, engaging with lost people or drunk people with no police officer hanging onto any leash/collar.
> 
> I guess I see the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs, because they could not possibly be used the way they were used. And I am interested in what folks think about that.
> 
> Unfortunately, most folks are unable to believe that the breed has evolved into something different, modern law enforcement requires different traits, or what have you. Instead they are are thinking that I am talking about them, personally, and their dogs. I have no clue on here who uses a prong, even now. I cannot connect user names to training implements. Can't do it. But it is so personal.
> 
> Either the dogs have changed, or the handling has changed, or both.


You do understand that up until about 40 years ago, and still today in some places, dogs that did not work or comply were shot(or worse) right?
I'm sure there would be huge public outrage, in this country anyway, if we returned to that method.


----------



## SuperG

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you ever have the chance, read the KMODT. Imagine using it on your dog. I still get sick to the stomach when I think about how I trained my softer GSDs back then under a professional because that was the way they trained back then.



But this is exactly what I am talking about.....we only knew what we knew back then and today we only know what we know today....I'm not a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" type person.....so I don't punish myself too much regarding the past.....assuming I followed the general wisdom of the day. Koehler's premise that a dog's "choice" has a consequence....could be good ...could be bad...depends on the choice the dog makes..but the basic premise is still employed today....just that the negative consequences are muted ...and the positive consequences are promoted more....but I didn't see my use of a dominant dog collar on my current GSD any different than Koehleresque.....maybe there is a better way to get the same result....but of the 3 GSDs I have had....this one is as hard a dog that I have ever had when it comes to physical correction....and oddly enough....the softest one when it comes to my "attitude" if she lets me down or I am not pleased with her performance....too bad when she is in drive mode...her hearing is selective....

SuperG


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

dogma13 said:


> The original post asked if people used prongs because of a flaw in leadership,training,or the genetics of their dogs.Inferring the use of the tool suggested the owners or dogs are somehow flawed.Tends to put people on the defense immediately.
> Nevertheless the many different opinions and perspectives were informative.


You are correct, my bad. I really had neglected the final question in all of my comments. I had skimmed over the tail end of the post.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> What is it that makes you sick? Did you actually read the book, or did you just read the objectionable parts?
> I ask because I have it in my spare room on a book shelf and have had since I was about 16. You do understand that the method he used is still widely used right?


I read the book in my teens as well, the whole book, and I do still have it.

As I already stated, I trained two softer GSDs using that method under a professional trainer. I also went on to title both of those dogs right after. 

What is it that makes me sick about it? Back then, pretty much the lack of actually teaching the dog and helping him to learn but mostly the heavy use of corrections for something they did not really know.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> Well, the breed was created before e-collars for herding dogs that would definitely *work off-lead with their shepherd-leaders.* No way for an active herder to make use of a prong, an e-maybe. But the dog would have to be biddible, intelligent and like to work with its person. And seeing reels of the early k9s working in Germany, engaging with lost people or drunk people with* no police officer hanging onto any leash/collar*.
> I guess I see the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs, because they could not possibly be used the way they were used. And I am interested in what folks think about that.


You’re comparing apples to oranges….dogs trained to work without physical restraints and dogs tethered to humans. I see a big difference.


----------



## Jenny720

Getting caught up in one’s cycle and getting baited into a bat cave. Who is to say positive reinforcement is not used when using a prong collar. How can one compare abusively displining a child to a dog wearing a prong collar. Scarring kids with electric cords and dogs wearing correction collars with pressure applied are not comparable. It can be compared to a owner using tools abusively to hurt the dog purposely. Two different things. If one is continuously leaving marks on kids for discipline it is called abuse today. Just as if one were to leave marks and scars on animals- it’s abuse - another thread.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

SuperG said:


> But this is exactly what I am talking about.....we only knew what we knew back then and today we only know what we know today....I'm not a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" type person.....so I don't punish myself too much regarding the past....*.assuming I followed the general wisdom of the day. *Koehler's premise that a dog's "choice" has a consequence....could be good ...could be bad...depends on the choice the dog makes..but the basic premise is still employed today....just that the negative consequences are muted ...and the positive consequences are promoted more....but I didn't see my use of a dominant dog collar on my current GSD any different than Koehleresque.....maybe there is a better way to get the same result....but of the 3 GSDs I have had....this one is as hard a dog that I have ever had when it comes to physical correction....and oddly enough....the softest one when it comes to my "attitude" if she lets me down or I am not pleased with her performance....too bad when she is in drive mode...her hearing is selective....
> 
> SuperG


The bolded, I believe is the core of this thread and part of what is being questioned.

I disagree with you on your comparison of KMODT vs today's training. ( I bet you didn't see that coming! > ) I think dog training today is vastly different. I didn't really see dogs being given the choices under KMODT as they are today. I did not see the where the dogs were taught, mostly just forced to do our will, and heavily corrected for failing to do so. They were not encouraged to think or to offer behaviors. They complied, that's all.


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I read the book in my teens as well, the whole book, and I do still have it.
> 
> As I already stated, I trained two softer GSDs using that method under a professional trainer. I also went on to title both of those dogs right after.
> 
> What is it that makes me sick about it? Back then, pretty much the lack of actually teaching the dog and helping him to learn but mostly the heavy use of corrections for something they did not really know.


Actually, KMODT is not harsh. Unless the dog is being a jerk. The whole premise of the method is that the dog corrects itself.
Page 10 of the 22nd printing-" This book differs from others in two ways: it openly acknowledges that not all dogs want to please, and that some are even viciously resentful of efforts to train them; and it takes the stand that these viciously resentful problem dogs, since they are bred and influenced by man, have a moral right to the training that may be necessary to rehabilitate them."

Page 11-"And it must be remembered that the extreme procedures included herein are advised only in those cases where the alternative is as drastic as being put to sleep."

Page 21-" Magazines have dignified the prattle of dog psychologists who would rob the dog of a birthright that he has in common with all of God's creatures: the right to the consequences of his own actions"

He also addresses prong collars in the equipment section, states that your pup should be at least six months old and reminds that it is unfair to continually issue ineffective and unclear corrections.
The printing that I have is from 1978. The book was initially written in 1962.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Actually, KMODT is not harsh. Unless the dog is being a jerk. The whole premise of the method is that the dog corrects itself.
> Page 10 of the 22nd printing-" This book differs from others in two ways: it openly acknowledges that not all dogs want to please, and that some are even viciously resentful of efforts to train them; and it takes the stand that these viciously resentful problem dogs, since they are bred and influenced by man, have a moral right to the training that may be necessary to rehabilitate them."
> 
> Page 11-"And it must be remembered that the extreme procedures included herein are advised only in those cases where the alternative is as drastic as being put to sleep."
> 
> Page 21-" Magazines have dignified the prattle of dog psychologists who would rob the dog of a birthright that he has in common with all of God's creatures: the right to the consequences of his own actions"
> 
> He also addresses prong collars in the equipment section, states that your pup should be at least six months old and reminds that it is unfair to continually issue ineffective and unclear corrections.
> The printing that I have is from 1978. The book was initially written in 1962.


Everybody is entitled to their opinion and interpretation.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> Well, the breed was created before e-collars for herding dogs that would definitely work off-lead with their shepherd-leaders. No way for an active herder to make use of a prong, an e-maybe. But the dog would have to be biddible, intelligent and like to work with its person.
> 
> And seeing reels of the early k9s working in Germany, engaging with lost people or drunk people with no police officer hanging onto any leash/collar.
> 
> I guess I see the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs, because they could not possibly be used the way they were used. And I am interested in what folks think about that.
> 
> Unfortunately, most folks are unable to believe that the breed has evolved into something different, modern law enforcement requires different traits, or what have you. Instead they are are thinking that I am talking about them, personally, and their dogs. I have no clue on here who uses a prong, even now. I cannot connect user names to training implements. Can't do it. But it is so personal.
> 
> Either the dogs have changed, or the handling has changed, or both.


Well, one thing has changed hugely and that's e collar technology. E Collars are about as different now from 20 years ago as computers are I'd guess.

Is it KMODT that talks about using throw chains? 

Anyway. This I feel strongly about. I would only say that " the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs," if I knew that I could train any german shepherd to perform any job needed of it without any correction collar, AND train other people to be able to accomplish the same with their dogs--without any prong or e collar.

If I didn't know those two things were true--that I had trained not one but dozens of military working dogs to functional capacity, patrol dogs for police, service dogs, and working herding dogs... and had done it all without any of those tools and could also teach others to do the same, I would never make that statement. 

Because number one, I don't know what I'm talking about. I have never trained a MWD, a patrol dog, or a herding dog. I HAVE trained dogs to do rally obedience without any of those tools and I too would think you might have a lack if you needed an e collar to teach rally o. 

I don't know when the prong collar was invented but there were definitely dogs working before e collars were invented. I would wager that the trainers and handlers dealt with their dogs however necessary, with shepherd hooks, throw chains, ropes or long lines, their voices and body language having imprinted their intent on dogs as pups, who the heck knows what else...wherever and however it was necessary, and I seriously seriously doubt those trainers and handlers of the past were so much better leaders that those of today because their tools were different.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I don't believe that it was said that the use of prong collars was due to a flaw in leadership, training or genetics of the dog. It was *asked* if those aspects could be contributory to the need for prongs or e collars.


----------



## GypsyGhost

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't believe that it was said that the use of prong collars was due to a flaw in leadership, training or genetics of the dog. It was *asked* if those aspects could be contributory to the need for prongs or e collars.


See, you read “asked” and I read “implied”...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

GypsyGhost said:


> See, you read “asked” and I read “implied”...


No disrespect, but without asking, wouldn't that be putting words in somebody's mouth? I let the question mark dictate the meaning to me. I think an implication would not have been phrased as a question although I do realize though that sometimes such things can be a matter of familiarity or pattern.


----------



## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No disrespect, but without asking, wouldn't that be putting words in somebody's mouth? I let the question mark dictate the meaning to me. I think an implication would not have been phrased as a question although I do realize though that sometimes such things can be a matter of familiarity or pattern.


The implication is that there is a flaw.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Steve Strom said:


> The implication is that there is a flaw.


As has been the impication through out the thread.


----------



## Steve Strom

Jack's Dad said:


> As has been the impication through out the thread.


I think it was the whole premise of the thread. A back handed this dog vs that dog commentary.


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## MineAreWorkingline

You know what they say about opinions, everybody has one.


----------



## Steve Strom

And if the couch fits, wear it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> I think it was the whole premise of the thread. A back handed this dog vs that dog commentary.


To me, it seems that the thread has been everybody for prongs, and only myself mainly posting against. Are you implying something?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

My implication is that when certain people who seldom post show up, their presence is nothing but a harbinger of a thread about to be closed.


----------



## selzer

Whiteshepherds said:


> You’re comparing apples to oranges….dogs trained to work without physical restraints and dogs tethered to humans. I see a big difference.


So, are you saying that folks who cannot control their dog without an e-collar or prong collar on lead, could train the dog into a successful off-lead police or sheep-herding work? 

I do not think it is comparing apples to oranges, unless the breed has evolved into a different dog, genetics.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> And if the couch fits, wear it.


Is this directed at me?


----------



## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is this directed at me?


Different temperaments in the different dogs.


----------



## GypsyGhost

I guess I just don’t see the need for another thread like this. Everyone just gets defensive and nothing is accomplished except for a bunch of people digging their heels in and/or hurling insults at others who do things differently than they do. In the end, who really cares if prongs or ecollars or dominant dog collars or flat collars are used? I think we all agree that none of us want to abuse our dogs, or really hurt them in any way, so I see no point in postulating on if a back up prong is really needed, or makes anyone less of a trainer than anyone else. Use the tools that work for you and your dog. Use them responsibly. Get training if you don't know how to use tools. If the tool you are using isn’t getting you the results you want, try a different tool. Go to a different trainer. Read books. Observe dogs. Go see how others train their dogs. Go see what other types of dogs there are that maybe would even require you (general you) to reach for a prong. I have two very different GSDs. And I use VERY different training methods and tools with each of them. What good does it do to generalize that no one should need a prong just because my dog doesn’t need one? That’s silly. I guess the premise of this thread is just lost on me...


----------



## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, one thing has changed hugely and that's e collar technology. E Collars are about as different now from 20 years ago as computers are I'd guess.
> 
> Is it KMODT that talks about using throw chains?
> 
> Anyway. This I feel strongly about. I would only say that " the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs," if I knew that I could train any german shepherd to perform any job needed of it without any correction collar, AND train other people to be able to accomplish the same with their dogs--without any prong or e collar.
> 
> If I didn't know those two things were true--that I had trained not one but dozens of military working dogs to functional capacity, patrol dogs for police, service dogs, and working herding dogs... and had done it all without any of those tools and could also teach others to do the same, I would never make that statement.
> 
> Because number one, I don't know what I'm talking about. I have never trained a MWD, a patrol dog, or a herding dog. I HAVE trained dogs to do rally obedience without any of those tools and I too would think you might have a lack if you needed an e collar to teach rally o.
> 
> I don't know when the prong collar was invented but there were definitely dogs working before e collars were invented. I would wager that the trainers and handlers dealt with their dogs however necessary, with shepherd hooks, throw chains, ropes or long lines, their voices and body language having imprinted their intent on dogs as pups, who the heck knows what else...wherever and however it was necessary, and I seriously seriously doubt those trainers and handlers of the past were so much better leaders that those of today because their tools were different.


I think they were better leaders. Dogs that killed sheep were useless to them and killed. Dogs were utilitarian, and if they were bothering the farm's critters they did not live long. They did not breed. They did not last, and perhaps that was the best thing for the breed. Remember they culled pretty indiscriminately as well. 

That being said, farmers see animals differently that most pet owners. Dogs are dogs, and treated as such. And the expectations for the dog's behavior and abilities are in line with what the dog/breed is. Which is not necessarily so for pet owners. People who work regularly with horses, cows, sheep, often have a much better handle on dogs because it takes a certain composure to be effective with animals.


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## selzer

Threads do not insult people. People insult people. Topics are not offensive, and this topic IS something we will continue to have a need for, because all over there are places trying to ban the use of these collars. And they are banned in places. It is important to have discussions about topics that effect dogs. 

One can be offended by anything. If people, in general, could get over themselves, they would be able to have meaningful conversation on ANY topic. And it could be quite productive. Instead we can ban the topic -- what does that solve? Really? It doesn't change for a moment what I think about the general use of these "tools." It just muzzles folks that don't think like you. 

We do not progress at all that way. 



GypsyGhost said:


> I guess I just don’t see the need for another thread like this. Everyone just gets defensive and nothing is accomplished except for a bunch of people digging their heels in and/or hurling insults at others who do things differently than they do. In the end, who really cares if prongs or ecollars or dominant dog collars or flat collars are used? I think we all agree that none of us want to abuse our dogs, or really hurt them in any way, so I see no point in postulating on if a back up prong is really needed, or makes anyone less of a trainer than anyone else. Use the tools that work for you and your dog. Use them responsibly. Get training if you don't know how to use tools. If the tool you are using isn’t getting you the results you want, try a different tool. Go to a different trainer. Read books. Observe dogs. Go see how others train their dogs. Go see what other types of dogs there are that maybe would even require you (general you) to reach for a prong. I have two very different GSDs. And I use VERY different training methods and tools with each of them. What good does it do to generalize that no one should need a prong just because my dog doesn’t need one? That’s silly. I guess the premise of this thread is just lost on me...


----------



## GypsyGhost

We also do not progress by digging our heels in and insisting our way is the only way.


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## Sabis mom

GypsyGhost said:


> We also do not progress by digging our heels in and insisting our way is the only way.


Every single dog that has passed through my life has taught me something and added tools to the toolbox. If that ever stops being the case I will know it is time for me to have no more dogs.


----------



## selzer

GypsyGhost said:


> We also do not progress by digging our heels in and insisting our way is the only way.


Oh, I don't know. It seems to me that it works pretty good for loose-leash walking. And you don't even need a prong collar. >


----------



## GypsyGhost

Sabis mom said:


> Every single dog that has passed through my life has taught me something and added tools to the toolbox. If that ever stops being the case I will know it is time for me to have no more dogs.


So much truth! I’ve learned more from training my current male than I did in the prior 15 years combined. I’ve used tools I never thought I would need, tried sports I never thought I would try, learned more about training methods and theories and dog psychology than I ever imagined. I’ve run into problems with him that I never experienced with any other dogs. If admitting that he was more dog than I expected (with temperament flaws that no one should have to deal with), and that I needed to use correction collars to make him safe in public makes me a bad trainer, well then so be it. I don’t automatically assume that any future dogs I may have will “need” a prong collar (my girl doesn’t), but if I think using one would benefit us, or make training more clear, I’ll use one.


----------



## GypsyGhost

selzer said:


> Oh, I don't know. It seems to me that it works pretty good for loose-leash walking. And you don't even need a prong collar. >


Sure, if you don’t mind a 75 lb dog literally choking themselves out on a flat collar...


----------



## dogma13

Which makes me remember a little jrt I owned long ago.He walked along nicely on a flat collar until he smelled a critter trail to follow.He would choke himself until he passed out,literally.If I kept walking he would refuse to walk and be dragged.I had to scoop him up and carry him so he wouldn't hurt himself.


----------



## selzer

GypsyGhost said:


> Sure, if you don’t mind a 75 lb dog literally choking themselves out on a flat collar...


Really? 

It's funny. I can take a dog that I got back at 18 months old, 80 pounds, already dragged his owner down, remove the prong collar, and use the above technique and not have him literally choke at all. 

A bitch I never met before I got when she was 4 years old, put a collar on her and a leash and she never dragged me or choked either. 

Yes it is easier to do when the pup is 3-4 months old, because they are smaller, and if they get it then, it makes everything easier, but you can certainly do it with dogs you get at six months or two years or four years or even older. 

I am amazed that so many people have trouble with walking their dog. But are they willing to even consider that just maybe there is another way to do this than putting a correction collar on the dog? Nope, they just have to dig their heels in and insist that the training tool is the ONLY way for their dog. 

Yep, that certainly isn't the way to progress.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Sue, I’m not insisting that a prong collar is the ONLY way. I’m saying it may be the best option for a lot of people out there. Just because I use a prong, or a DDC, or a flat collar on one dog, does not automatically make it the right tool for another dog. Different tools, different dogs, different temperaments, different experience levels for the person holding the leash... all of these things should be taken into consideration, not just brushed aside. I get that you are a master trainer, capable of walking all of your dogs in your environment and training them for rally, but not everyone is there.

I am still of the opinion that if using a prong on a dog actually gets people to walk them, then that is not a bad thing. Maybe the confidence they gain will make them want to continue training. I just cannot see that as a bad thing.


----------



## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> Really?
> 
> It's funny. I can take a dog that I got back at 18 months old, 80 pounds, already dragged his owner down, remove the prong collar, and use the above technique and not have him literally choke at all.
> 
> A bitch I never met before I got when she was 4 years old, put a collar on her and a leash and she never dragged me or choked either.
> 
> Yes it is easier to do when the pup is 3-4 months old, because they are smaller, and if they get it then, it makes everything easier, but you can certainly do it with dogs you get at six months or two years or four years or even older.
> 
> I am amazed that so many people have trouble with walking their dog. But are they willing to even consider that just maybe there is another way to do this than putting a correction collar on the dog? Nope, they just have to dig their heels in and insist that the training tool is the ONLY way for their dog.
> 
> Yep, that certainly isn't the way to progress.


Just one question. I have had numerous dogs who were very adept at slipping collars, usually the ones with the little snippy heads. Incidentally that is why little miss here never wears a flat collar. How exactly does one prevent that? Because most truly fearful dogs I have worked with immediately face you and fight like **** to get out of that collar when they feel threatened. And for Shadow, and others I have worked with, every blessed thing in the world from plastic bags to buses, to lawn signs, to flashing lights and certainly anyone or thing approaching is a threat.


----------



## cliffson1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is interesting that some people view the questionable use of aversives on animals in our care as negative while others view the actual people as negative who question the practice because of those people's concerns about the treatment of these animals.


What is your definition of “ questionable”? I don’t think most people have a problem with people questioning aversives for themselves, thus not choosing to use them; and I don’t think most people view these people as negative for these beliefs. I do believe that people resent the moral judgement of others by these people, and the implied assertion that these people know what’s best for other people’s dogs and that by using aversives( especially using them skillfully and appropriately) that they are hurting their dogs or their dogs don’t love or respect them as much as the people who don’t use these tools.


----------



## cliffson1

selzer said:


> When I was 8 years old, my teacher gave me 42 swats for not having 21 things done on the lists she gave me for homework that she wanted me to do over for whatever reason. In those days, every teacher had a paddle hanging in a prominent position in our little Lutheran School. Some of them had their names on them. Some had holes in them to increase the velocity and give that nice, whippy sound when you swing them through the air. Others preferred the solid thwap! that a hole-less paddle would make on a back-side.
> 
> At home things were not much better. My mother gave me 20 more that night for getting in trouble at school. Only she used a coffee pot extension cord, which could produce some impressive welts. My dad had a stick which he printed, THE BOARD OF EDUCATION on, that was his tool of choice, though belts and tennis shoes were also effective and on hand.
> 
> The kids in the neighborhood all carried scars from one sort of aversive or another. The little Tadero boys sometimes had rope burns down their legs. Other kids' parents liked the razor strap, probably because it sounded wicked. Like me saying, "Prong Collar" to my dogs, makes them straighten up and fly right even though they have never seen one. J.J. Murphy's old man threw him off the top bunk of a bunk bed and broke his arm, then made him sit in the corner for a month so his bruises could heal. But most of us felt that Mr. Murphy went a bit overboard, and J.J. repeating the 2nd or 3rd grade 3 times kind of played in favor of that.
> 
> Somewhere along the way, we changed our thinking about how to motivate children to behave or excel. And parents like mine whose children were as much as 16 years apart, from oldest to youngest. Well, they slow up as they age. The frequency and duration of punishment for the younger children is not nearly as severe as it was for those first few. There is a learning curve to everything I suppose.
> 
> Now, we all know dogs are not children. Dogs do not need to grow up and move out and drag their own backside out of bed and off to work every day and give a reasonable account of themselves without being prodded along by a parent. My extension-cord wielding mother says, "never strike a dog." And she raised her first GSD with never striking him, no prong collars, no chokers. She was old and recovering from colon cancer and the chemo that goes with it, and the blockage and surgery that went after it.
> 
> Well, as the years and the dogs add up, I find the need for aversives -- even verbal ones, go way down from dog to dog. It is because I have gained experience, not because the dogs are so much better. A friend of mine whose dog just passed in the last few months with 2 legs to her UD finished, she told me yesterday that she never was in trouble. She never had to scold her. She was the best dog. But, this lady also had a stream of dogs prior to getting this pup at 7 weeks. No doubt the dog was a nice dog, but the handler was experienced.
> 
> If by experience, we learn that Beneful dog food is horrendous, and we come on here and explain why we should not feed that, are we going to offend the folks that use Beneful? Should that matter?
> 
> Most of the good trainers I have known began in the days of the Koehler method and choke chains. They evolved over the the years. They trifled with Positive Only, with varying levels of success. Most of them park for a while on prong collars and a judicious amount of treats, for a number of reasons. For one thing, most of the people they work with are novices. Novices often don't stick and naught. Sorry, but only a percentage of novices ever go on to become journeymen or professionals in any endeavor. The prong collar gives a level of instant control and success that will bring people back next week, and the next, and the next.
> 
> I see the "slap a prong collar on the dog to get it to stop pulling" training method, kind of like the alter the dog between 4 and 6 months veterinary practice. I disapprove. I know it isn't popular, but I see it like telling folks that playing with laser pointers with their dogs is dangerous. Maybe I experienced too many wacks to instill in me that desire to assimilate to what the rest of the group is doing. To care. I don't. I don't care about offending the ego of dogs' owners. I care about dogs.
> 
> I think there may be dogs out there for which the use of training devices are the best way to go. I think the vast majority of GSDs do not fall in this category. And I believe that folks would learn more if they chose a different path when it came to training their dogs. Folks used to believe that choke chains were the way to go. Now most prong people see choke chains as evil or dangerous. There were pioneers in training who believed that first, and were probably given the same crud by the trainers and users who found the tool effective.


I think a majority of dog owners that correctly use any tool CARE about their dogs. I just don’t think that dog care is synonymous with the method of training. 
Based on faulty reasoning, one would conclude that dogs trained in the Koehler period( and I trained high level dogs during this period) were robotic, dull, unloved dogs as a result of the tools and method of training. That they were not joyful, full of life and loved their masters dearly. Nothing is further from the truth. Dogs didn’t request or require the evolution of training or newer tools, people did! 
I understand your thoughts feelings towards these tools, Selzer.....and they are NOT wrong for you! 
I also agree that it is possible and probable that many people project their life experiences through their dogs.....and just like no two dogs are the same, no two dogs feel the same about the way they are trained.


----------



## cliffson1

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you ever have the chance, read the KMODT. Imagine using it on your dog. I still get sick to the stomach when I think about how I trained my softer GSDs back then under a professional because that was the way they trained back then.


Agrw!!!! This is a false narrative from someone who was not back there. People who used the Koehler method of training DID NOT use the extreme measures that he sometime advocated for the “ soft” dogs. If the dog was soft there was not a reason to use harsher aspects of KMOT. Also, in those days the average GS was much different in general in nerves and aggression. 
People cherry pick to make their point, ( usually people with very limited exposure or knowing what they have been told) , and their opinions often don’t reflect the general situation. Parents didn’t beat kids or use corporal punishment for all discipline in times past, no more than trainers in seventies used harsh corrective measures for all dogs during training. The corrections were commensurate with the actions and the dog....that is still the case today, except we have different tools and the breed is viewed differently today by majority of people. 
I cringe when I hear people speak about dog training in the past, because usually depending on their views they take extreme cases or situations to make the point of that was the way it was. Yes, there was some bad situations then, there are bad situations today, but the majority in both times was good for the dog at that time.


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## Cassidy's Mom

GypsyGhost said:


> See, you read “asked” and I read “implied”...


Exactly.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> No disrespect, but without asking, wouldn't that be putting words in somebody's mouth?


In a vacuum, perhaps. But since the OP has made clear numerous times over many years exactly how she feels about such tools, and has mentioned numerous times over many years that she does not "need" them (nor food or toys) to train her dogs, I don't think it's a big stretch to see the implication inherent in the question. It's not the first time she's made this point, it's just the first time that I can recall that she's started a thread devoted to it.


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## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> What is your definition of “ questionable”? I don’t think most people have a problem with people questioning aversives for themselves, thus not choosing to use them; and I don’t think most people view these people as negative for these beliefs. I do believe that people resent the moral judgement of others by these people, and the implied assertion that these people know what’s best for other people’s dogs and that by using aversives( especially using them skillfully and appropriately) that they are hurting their dogs or their dogs don’t love or respect them as much as the people who don’t use these tools.


I agree Cliff but the comment you reference was directed to the one post wonder whose one and only comment on this thread was to insult and personally attack those who do not use prongs without that person adding anything constructive or of value to the thread.

My comment was not intended for you or the general you, I apologize to all if it appeared that way, but I was trying to point out the contradiction of that comment without taking the hit for a warning or a banning.

Once again, my apologies to all.


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## Jax08

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> In a vacuum, perhaps. But since the OP has made clear numerous times over many years exactly how she feels about such tools, and has mentioned numerous times over many years that she does not "need" them (nor food or toys) to train her dogs, I don't think it's a big stretch to see the implication inherent in the question. It's not the first time she's made this point, it's just the first time that I can recall that she's started a thread devoted to it.



Or the number of times she's blatantly expressed her distaste for anything working line or IPO related while declaring no desire to actually educate herself on the dogs or the breed test because it doesn't fit her vision.

Not a huge stretch of the imagination to see intent.


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## MineAreWorkingline

cliffson1 said:


> Agrw!!!! *This is a false narrative from someone who was not back there.** People who used the Koehler method of training DID NOT use the extreme measures that he sometime advocated for the “ soft” dogs. *If the dog was soft there was not a reason to use harsher aspects of KMOT. Also, in those days the average GS was much different in general in nerves and aggression.
> People cherry pick to make their point, ( usually people with very limited exposure or knowing what they have been told) , and their opinions often don’t reflect the general situation. Parents didn’t beat kids or use corporal punishment for all discipline in times past, no more than trainers in seventies used harsh corrective measures for all dogs during training. The corrections were commensurate with the actions and the dog....that is still the case today, except we have different tools and the breed is viewed differently today by majority of people.
> I cringe when I hear people speak about dog training in the past, because usually depending on their views they take extreme cases or situations to make the point of that was the way it was. Yes, there was some bad situations then, there are bad situations today, but the majority in both times was good for the dog at that time.


Cliff, I am guessing we are about the same age so either both of us weren't back there or we both were, I suspect the later but under different venues. I do speak only from my experience which I don't profess to be extensive but the trainer I worked with was cookie cutter one size fits all and applied KMODT to one and all as if they were the same. Maybe I am reading your words wrong but I think we both agree that softer dogs generally don't need harsher methods or tools although there may be exceptions.


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## IllinoisNative

I used to be against a lot of things until experience taught me otherwise. I used to think crates were barbaric. Ha! Then I had my own dogs and got involved with dog rescue. I also educated myself, and now I know different. I used to think prongs were cruel. And then I experienced some difficult dogs where it's the only tool that helped me walk them. Most were adult dogs that came to me with various levels of training, socialization, and abusive situations, etc. I had to do what was right for me and the dog. Some dogs never needed a prong. Some did.

I currently have a 13 year old dog that has never worn a prong collar in his life. He never needed one. He has a softer temperament and was very easy to leash train as a puppy. Never had a single issue with him. In fact, I never really needed prongs on my own dogs (all of which I had as puppies)...until now. I have a dog that is dog reactive. He walks well on a leash until he sees another dog. We would NEVER leave the house if he wasn't wearing a prong collar, which I think would be more detrimental to my dog in the long run. My mom, who comes over to let my dogs out when I'm not home, has RA. If my dog wasn't on a prong, she wouldn't be able to handle him if he saw another dog.

Now I'm trying my best to address the dog reactivity issue, and we'll be seeing a trainer soon for this specific issue (got put on the backburner because my mom needed emergency surgery). But until this addressed, I need the prong to take my dog anywhere in public. I'm not the most experienced trainer in the world so maybe this issue is on me. But I need to do what I need to do for the safety and well-being of me, my dog, and the general public. I see the prong for what it is...a training tool that is allowing me to function with my dog in every day life.


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't believe that it was said that the use of prong collars was due to a flaw in leadership, training or genetics of the dog. It was *asked* if those aspects could be contributory to the need for prongs or e collars.


No, I am pretty sure Selzer came right out and said that it means that to her. I'll see if i can find it


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## Thecowboysgirl

@Cliffson said "If the dog was soft there was not a reason to use harsher aspects of KMOT. Also, in those days the average GS was much different in general in nerves and aggression. "

I have read some discussions of the changes in shepherds I think...I am not sure I remember well enough what they said. 

But Cliffson are you saying that the dog did evolve along with the training method? Or I suppose it evolved (for better or worse) also for a lot of other reasons too, not just the way people train dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> No, I am pretty sure Selzer came right out and said that it means that to her. I'll see if i can find it


Well, the question was asked in the opening statement, and many people do not read all of the other comments or only some of them, and the title of the thread was pretty explicit stating please discuss. Those aspects could have and probably should have been a part of the discussion as well but nobody chose to participate. There could have been much to share and learn, perhaps a missed opportunity.


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## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> Well, the breed was created before e-collars for herding dogs that would definitely work off-lead with their shepherd-leaders. No way for an active herder to make use of a prong, an e-maybe. But the dog would have to be biddible, intelligent and like to work with its person.
> 
> And seeing reels of the early k9s working in Germany, engaging with lost people or drunk people with no police officer hanging onto any leash/collar.
> 
> *I guess I see the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs*, because they could not possibly be used the way they were used. And I am interested in what folks think about that.
> 
> Unfortunately, most folks are unable to believe that the breed has evolved into something different, modern law enforcement requires different traits, or what have you. Instead they are are thinking that I am talking about them, personally, and their dogs. I have no clue on here who uses a prong, even now. I cannot connect user names to training implements. Can't do it. But it is so personal.
> 
> Either the dogs have changed, or the handling has changed, or both.


I don't know how to bold on here. But Selzer DID say 

"I see the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs"

That is not asking if it is, that is saying that it is


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## Cassidy's Mom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't know how to bold on here.


On the top of your reply window there's a *B* - that's for bolding. Select the text you want and then click on the *B*. There's still plenty of time to edit your post if you want to.


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Cliff, I am guessing we are about the same age so either both of us weren't back there or we both were, I suspect the later but under different venues. I do speak only from my experience which I don't profess to be extensive but the trainer I worked with was cookie cutter one size fits all and applied KMODT to one and all as if they were the same. Maybe I am reading your words wrong but I think we both agree that softer dogs generally don't need harsher methods or tools although there may be exceptions.


I mean, my dog is pretty soft. My younger one. SUPER biddable. He is offleash a mighty lot of the time, hiking in the mountains almost every day, and I thought he would be my one who never needed an e collar because he had such a good motivational recall and when we started springing deer up on the mountain he called off again and again.

Until one day he didn't. Somewhere in the peak of his adolescence he had that moment where he either didn't hear me in the heat of the moment or just chose to give me the finger and then he realized what a rush it was to chase a deer--more of a rush than coming to me for a reward at that time.

I suppose you could chalk it up to a flaw in leadership---maybe I ought to have proofed him more on a long line and that was my failing. He did go back on a long line briefly while he started on e collar and that was that.

I guess he is a soft, biddable dog with enough prey drive that he isn't biddable anymore when deer are running away? I am just not going to lose sleep over it---he has zero ill effects from the minimal e collar work i did with him, he is safe and reliable now, and he still hikes up in the mountains every day with me. You just aren't going to tell me it's a bad thing


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't know how to bold on here. But Selzer DID say
> 
> "I see the need for the correction collars as a flaw in leadership, training, or in the genetics of the dogs"
> 
> That is not asking if it is, that is saying that it is


Well, I am not going to bicker back and forth about it. This was the opening statement: 

"Our breed is loyal to their handler, intelligent, biddible, and bred to work with humans. How come it is considered not only acceptable, but typical to require prong collars or e-collars to control them? Is this a flaw in leadership, training, or genetics?"


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## selzer

Well, Ihczth, Cassidy's Mom, and Gypsy Ghost, are just three more moderators I have lost all respect for for LIKING a post that was clearly posted just as an attack on a memeber, which is against the rules, but ok, because it fits their agenda.


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## voodoolamb

Something I have noticed on this forum is it seems that some of the most vocal opponents to corrective tools do not actively work their dogs in venues that put any real pressure on the dog and/or have also posted about instances of behavioral issues that put their dogs or other animals in actual danger. 

So there's that. 

People can't see the forest through the trees sometimes. So what if a person needs to use a tool to control their dog? Atleast they ARE controlling their animal and the implication is that they are out doing things with their dogs in places that require keeping their animal under control. That's better for the dog's overall well being than stuck at home with a flat buckle


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## GypsyGhost

selzer said:


> Well, Ihczth, Cassidy's Mom, and Gypsy Ghost, are just three more moderators I have lost all respect for for LIKING a post that was clearly posted just as an attack on a memeber, which is against the rules, but ok, because it fits their agenda.


I’m sorry if you feel that I was liking a personal attack. I did not read any of the posts that I have liked as a personal attack on anyone. I do think there have been some borderline personal attacks on this thread, against the people that choose to use correction collars. The implication that correction collars automatically mean that there is a leadership problem, or that the owner is lazy, or that the decision to use a correction collar was not thought out and seriously debated is unfair. And I’m sorry you have decided I have an agenda, despite the fact that I have stated numerous times that I do, in fact, have one high drive dog that requires no correction collars, at all. And, I have stated that I don’t automatically assume I will need to use a prong on any future dogs, even though I have used one for my male.

I actually would love to see some videos of you training your dogs, if you would be willing to post them. Or, just some videos of how you do foudnation/manners stuff. Maybe we can all learn something from watching you.


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## MineAreWorkingline

With all due respect, I think there are a lot of training videos by respected trainers that don't use prongs teaching the basics. Stonnie Dennis and Michael Ellis are some of the videos I have seen. I am not saying they don't use them at all, just that I never saw videos where they did. Honestly, I can't recall ever seeing or hearing about a training video by a respected trainer that did teach the basics using a prong, but not saying they don't exist. The beauty of the videos I have seen is they easily translate to real life even for first time dog owners. Do you know of any videos that teach basics using a prong? Can you link to some? I would seriously be open to viewing them.

Also, I have seen Slamdunc recommend this little prong free gem on basic training: https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001


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## Thecowboysgirl

Michael Ellis does use prongs quite a bit. Which "basics" you are referring to I am not sure.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Tyler Muto has a good video of teaching leash pressure on a prong. I think he calls it "follow me, yield to me" or something like that.


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## Jax08

I don't believe reiterating your known position that you have stated on numerous occasions is an attack on you. To claim that is ridiculous. It's not a false statement. I didn't call you any names. I wasn't being a meanie. I stated facts thst anyone can read in your previous posts. Your history on such things certainly calls yours motives for posting this thread into question.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Michael Ellis does use prongs quite a bit. Which "basics" you are referring to I am not sure.


Can you point me to a source for that? The basics of training, what people would want or require for a pet.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Tyler Muto has a good video of teaching leash pressure on a prong. I think he calls it "follow me, yield to me" or something like that.


Thanks! I am not a fan of Muto. Have you seen the clip by ME teaching the same without a prong?


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Ellis does use prongs quite a bit. Which "basics" you are referring to I am not sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you point me to a source for that? The basics of training, what people would want or require for a pet.
Click to expand...

Ellis' stuff is primarily geared toward sport, not pet dogs. I am probably talking about/ thinking about stuff from DVDs which you'd have to buy...not sure I can link anything for you.

He definitely uses prongs to teach yielding to leash pressure for some dogs, slip leads on others. He uses prongs to work on heeling after the foundation is done with food.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Also one of his recall exercises has a segment that is done with a prong collar or a slip collar, again depending on the dog


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Ellis' stuff is primarily geared toward sport, not pet dogs. I am probably talking about/ thinking about stuff from DVDs which you'd have to buy...not sure I can link anything for you.
> 
> He definitely uses prongs to teach yielding to leash pressure for some dogs, slip leads on others. He uses prongs to work on heeling after the foundation is done with food.


Well, they all start with a good foundation and basic obedience. Most that I have seen, not just ME, train mostly off leash with no prongs for those levels.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I'm not sure what my "agenda" is supposed to be. :thinking: My sport is flyball, which is trained 100% motivationally, with food and toys. Prongs and e-collars are not even allowed on tournament grounds per NAFA rules.


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## Jax08

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well, they all start with a good foundation and basic obedience. Most that I have seen, not just ME, train mostly off leash with no prongs for those levels.



Yes. Most of the foundation is off leash, heavily rewarded and mostly positive. Teach. Teach. Teach.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Jax08 said:


> Yes. Most of the foundation is off leash, heavily rewarded and mostly positive. Teach. Teach. Teach.


Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


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## Jack's Dad

MineAreWorkingline said:


> With all due respect, I think there are a lot of training videos by respected trainers that don't use prongs teaching the basics. Stonnie Dennis and Michael Ellis are some of the videos I have seen. I am not saying they don't use them at all, just that I never saw videos where they did. Honestly, I can't recall ever seeing or hearing about a training video by a respected trainer that did teach the basics using a prong, but not saying they don't exist. The beauty of the videos I have seen is they easily translate to real life eokven for first time dog owners. Do you know of any videos that teach basics using a prong? Can you link to some? I would seriously be open to viewing them.
> 
> Also, I have seen Slamdunc recommend this little prong free gem on basic training: https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001


Can't say it's never happened but I have never heard of anyone suggesting prongs for young puppies. Especially for the basics.

Want to add, as a prong collar user, I don't care what anyone else thinks about it.

I won't be starting any threds preaching the virtues of the prong and defieicencies of those who won't or don't use them. I don't care what others use. Just hope it works for them.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Jack's Dad said:


> Can't say it's never happened but I have never heard of anyone suggesting prongs for young puppies. Especially for the basics.
> 
> Want to add, as a prong collar user, I don't care what anyone else thinks about it.
> 
> *I won't be starting any threds preaching the virtues of the prong and defieicencies of those who won't or don't use them.* I don't care what others use. Just hope it works for them.


Define young puppies. 

Loose leash walking is a basic.

Regarding the bolded: Neither have I or will I be starting any threads, not sure why you are targeting me for something that has nothing to do with me. Seems to be an opportunistic, personal agenda and is a repeating pattern regardless of accuracy.


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## wolfy dog

What I have learned from the WL dogs is that you need to be willing to throw out your preconceived ideas of what is right and what is wrong and use whatever works, starting as gentle as possible. The clicker method worked great until their drive kicked in at around adolescence and I needed more control in certain situations. Like Voodoo said, keeping her home with only the clicker is fine but going out into the world, nature etc, I need more than a clicker for control. Not because I am a lazy trainer but to override their drive. And I don't care either what people have to say about me using a prong.
I love the WLs because of this intensity for life, their stability and yes, their beauty as a bonus as well. I wouldn't change them for a bit.


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## Jax08

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


Don't thank me yet. Part of that foundation is pairing food with prongs and electric in a way that you can use it to communicate without correcting. I know you can't wrap your brain around that because we've had that discussion before. But it can be done and is done.

But, a regular pet owner will not go that far. They can do it with very little compulsion. Training should really be something like 95% positive. If a person is correcting more than that then they need to find a better way to communicate with their dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ellis' stuff is primarily geared toward sport, not pet dogs. I am probably talking about/ thinking about stuff from DVDs which you'd have to buy...not sure I can link anything for you.
> 
> He definitely uses prongs to teach yielding to leash pressure for some dogs, slip leads on others. He uses prongs to work on heeling after the foundation is done with food.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, they all start with a good foundation and basic obedience. Most that I have seen, not just ME, train mostly off leash with no prongs for those levels.
Click to expand...

There is a point at which Ellis says something to the effect of, young dog needs to have a bit of stress and learn to get through it with handler, this is when he does leash pressure. I expect he would say that this depends on the pup/young dog as to when that should happen.

And here's hoping I am not misinforming you all....am repeating stuff I heard from him as best as my memory can do which may not be spot on


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## MineAreWorkingline

Jax08 said:


> Don't thank me yet. Part of that foundation is pairing food with prongs and electric in a way that you can use it to communicate without correcting. I know you can't wrap your brain around that because we've had that discussion before. But it can be done and is done.
> 
> But, a regular pet owner will not go that far. They can do it with very little compulsion. Training should really be something like 95% positive. If a person is correcting more than that then they need to find a better way to communicate with their dog.


Agreed 100%.


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## Jack's Dad

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Define young puppies.
> 
> Loose leash walking is a basic.
> 
> Regarding the bolded: Neither have I or will I be starting any threads, not sure why you are targeting me for something that has nothing to do with me. Seems to be an opportunistic, personal agenda and is a repeating pattern regardless of accuracy.


You don't start threads, you take them over.
Leaving all the flak to the OP.

Be responsible,start your own thread some time and take what comes your way.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Jack's Dad said:


> You don't start threads, you take them over.
> Leaving all the flak to the OP.
> 
> Be responsible,start your own thread some time and take what comes your way.


Odd that OP seemed to be the one liking my comments and if the truth be told, I am the one that took a lot of flack for OP. 

Responsible could be defined as taking the high road and using the ignore button.


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