# Thoughts on a martingale for 4-month-old puller?



## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

I'm new to this forum so I'm sorry if this question has been asked before. I just adopted a 4-month old GSD mix last week from a shelter, and while he does pretty well indoors, walking with him outdoors has been rough because he PULLS at the leash to the point of choking himself.

His background is that a couple weeks before I adopted him, he was found living in an abandoned barn with his mom and sister, so I'm assuming that he's had little to no training. He's also fear-aggressive (barks at strangers and dogs, hair goes up on his back and he fixates on them), which I've never experienced with my previous three GSDs and multiple other dogs I've grown up with and trained. I've been reading "Help for your fearful dog" by Nicole Wilde which has been hugely helpful for identifying his fear signals, sticking to a schedule, making him "work" for everything (which right now is just having him sit before getting a toy or treat or going outside), but I'm still not having success with him outdoors.

I live in an apartment, so unfortunately I can't not take him outdoors for bathroom business but I've been walking him at odd times of the day to avoid encountering strangers or dogs and that has worked out fine. However, he's still a major leash puller and I feel bad for just using a flat collar and leash on him when he's choking himself. I can usually redirect him if I notice the dog or person before he does, but if he does, he fixates and won't move unless I keep walking (and end up semi-dragging him, which I hate doing). Also he will pull hard at the leash to the point of choking himself, and I've tried to do the "become a tree" where I stop when he starts to pull but I can only take a step or two before he runs to the end of his leash and starts pulling again.

I'm aware that I'm a bit out of my league with the combination of a fear-aggressive puppy and who doesn't walk well on a leash, so I've scheduled a training evaluation with a dog trainer tomorrow afternoon. The instructions for bringing him to the evaluation are that he must be wearing a properly fitted prong, slip, or martingale collar. I am a big fan of prong collars for bigger, older dogs but I think he's too young to start on one, and I don't like slip collars because of the choking aspect, so that leaves a martingale collar.

I've had no experience with a martingale collar. I'm aware of how they work, but would this be the best option for a 4 month old, given the options above? It seems like it would just end up choking him when he pulls and he wouldn't learn to not pull, since so far he still keeps pulling even though he's wheezing. Like I said, I know I'm a bit out of my depth with this, which is why I'm hoping an obedience class will help us.

I know a lot of people here advocate harnesses for younger dogs, but if that's not an option for this training class, would a martingale still be the best bet? Thanks!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A martingale uses the same principal as a prong collar but has more give. I bought one and took it back with a foster hound I had for a month. It was a large, powerful dog and didn't respond to it at all. I switched to a prong for that dog. I worked with a 16 week rescue GSD, also tried a martingale and ended up exchanging it at Petco for a small prong. Your dog could handle a medium prong/pinch collar. They seem cruel until you use them and realize they are like any other tool. Used properly, they make training easier. 

Get The Cautious Canine by McConnell. That's another good book on fearful dogs. Your puppy needs a lot of socialization. You can get your dog used to other dogs from a distance. I used that book with a very timid rescue and the dog became confident. It takes a lot of work but well worth the time.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> A martingale uses the same principal as a prong collar but has more give. I bought one and took it back with a foster hound I had for a month. It was a large, powerful dog and didn't respond to it at all. I switched to a prong for that dog. I worked with a 16 week rescue GSD, also tried a martingale and ended up exchanging it at Petco for a small prong. Your dog could handle a medium prong/pinch collar. They seem cruel until you use them and realize they are like any other tool. Used properly, they make training easier.
> 
> Get The Cautious Canine by McConnell. That's another good book on fearful dogs. Your puppy needs a lot of socialization. You can get your dog used to other dogs from a distance. I used that book with a very timid rescue and the dog became confident. It takes a lot of work but well worth the time.


I actually bought a medium prong collar when I was at Petsmart getting puppy supplies. I have fitted and used prong collars before and I absolutely love them, but I found a lot of posts on here saying to not use a prong collar until 6 months. I will try the prong on him later today on our walk and see if he responds better to that.

I just bought that book for the Kindle, so I will give it a read today. I always had two dogs before, so socialization and getting used to dogs wasn't as much of an issue, but this is my first "solo" dog so it's completely different. Thanks for the help and advice.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Will they let you use a head collar? I went to a service dog training class and saw they were using head collars on all their puppies. I used a tiny prong collar on the puppy. It's very light weight. But your dog may have already outgrown it. The dog I used it on was unusually small for a GSD.

The medium should be fine. It depends on how strong his neck muscles are. They are supposed to be snug. You already know how to use it, so try and see if the dog responds. I use it mainly for the noise, not to jerk the dog. Just let the dog tighten and release it rather than you pulling.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

we started using prongs on our last 2 pups at 4 months. IMO it's fine. be cautious that's all.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

A martingale collar is nothing like a prong. You're never going to get a good correction with a martingale. A martingale is good because it prevents the collar from slipping over the dog's head. It's not for training - it's more for safety. 

With a 4 month old puppy, try something like this.

Easy Walk® Harness


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

martingales don't stop pulling. It's just a way to give a correction when they do pull. 

The martingale was all Riley needed. Kaleb has a prong. He pulls a lot. I blame myself. He had pano so bad I was no leash training him. I use the dual collar system. The prong and the martingale as a back up collar in case the prong snaps apart.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

Thank you for all the information. I had to get a smaller prong collar today (he's on the very small and scrawny side of a GSD), and we went for a walk this evening. Huge improvement, and it was actually enjoyable for both of us, with no wheezing or choking from him! He pulled forward a couple of times in the beginning but once he felt a bit of pressure from the collar, he slowed down and matched my pace. We even got past some other people walking about 10 feet away from us, and while he noticed them and slowed down a little bit, he didn't come to a dead halt and plant his feet (which is a first for us) or bark at them (probably because he wasn't able to fixate on them). And when we turned the corner of my building, he actually stayed calm and didn't start lunging to the stairs like he normally does (he's not much of an outdoors dog yet).

When I took him out a few minutes after the walk to go to the bathroom, with just the flat collar and leash, he was a lot calmer. Eventually, my goal is have him walk nicely on a regular flat collar and leash so I won't always need to get out the prong to take him for a walk, but I think I may have found the solution to train him for now.

To answer the other questions, for the obedience class tomorrow, they specifically requested a training collar and not a harness or head halter. My dog is kinda head-shy anyway so I didn't want to use a head halter, although a harness would have been my next choice if a martingale or prong was discouraged. Thanks so much for the advice, and I'm feeling a lot better about tomorrow and taking him for walks outside now.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

socializing isn't exposing dogs to dogs, it's exposing dogs to sights, scents, sounds, people and dogs walking by. exposing him to life


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

trcy said:


> martingales don't stop pulling. It's just a way to give a correction when they do pull.
> 
> The martingale was all Riley needed. Kaleb has a prong. He pulls a lot. I blame myself. He had pano so bad I was no leash training him. I use the dual collar system. The prong and the martingale as a back up collar in case the prong snaps apart.


I was going to use a martingale as backup but unfortunately the collar I got for him is way too small. He definitely doesn't pull enough normally to cause the prong collar to break, but sometimes he lunges and it would make me feel better to have the backup.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

imo, martingale collars are good for those rare occasions when a gentle reminder is needed for an already trained dog.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

huntergreen said:


> imo, martingale collars are good for those rare occasions when a gentle reminder is needed for an already trained dog.


I think it depends on the dog. Riley was very easy to train and only required a gentle hand. I trained him with the martingale and he heeled perfectly. 

Kaleb, on the other hand, well...he has a mind of his own, he can be stubborn and he does require a firmer hand. He just ignores the martingale and pulls. He's better with the prong on. 

I blame myself. Riley was leashed trained by 6 months. Kaleb is 14 months and not 100% leash trained. He had pano really bad and I didn't want to push him to much, so we are working on it now that he's better.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

For a 4 month old, a Gentle Leader may help stop the pulling. They seem to work better for younger dogs than older ones for me. It really depends on the dog. I am training a class of German Shepherd/Malenois cross puppies right now and they are all different even though two are from the same litter and are 4 months and one is older at 10 months. Don't even get me started on why they are cross breeding these puppies - I have nothing good to say. The excuse for the older one was it was a mistake litter but since there has been at least one more litter it seems like less of a mistake and more of an on purpose. One of the 4 month pups does fine with a martingale and is very biddable, no pulling, easy training pup. The other 4 month litter mate required a gentle leader - crazy girl who just wants to pull suddenly learned not to pull this Saturday when I fitted the Gentle Leader. The 10 month old had no previous training and was left in a yard the entire time the people had him until he was rescued by my friend. We are starting at the beginning with him as he had no idea what training, toys, or even friends were. He is coming along slowly but is making progress. I am having so much fun with these puppies. I really miss being an aide for puppy class when my trainer was still in town, now I can get my puppy fix weekly.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

Update on Day 2 with the prong collar: we went on a couple of walks today and our walking is steadily improving. I've gotten better at spotting other dogs, so I was able to cross the street or turn around quickly if I saw one heading our way, and he would turn or walk with me without fighting it like he was doing before. Additionally, a little dog came bounding down the stairs on a retractable lead, just as we were about to head up, and I was able to quickly move/direct Archer out of the way before they collided or had a potential altercation, which would have been way harder on a flat collar. He's also walking much better on the flat collar when we go out for just bathroom breaks.

I had the training evaluation this morning, with the prong collar, and the trainer was glad to see my using a prong collar correctly and that he was doing well on it. She also double-checked the fit and said that while I could remove a link and go tighter, he is fine for now since he's still young and responds well to the collar as it fits right now. I really like the trainer (lots of experience with GSDs, has one of her own, and Archer liked her right away), so I'll be going to her group classes over the next few months. When we first walked in, there was a little dog across the room that started barking and he shrank back at first but after he realized the dog wasn't going to get close to him, he was fine and started to sniff around like he normally does.

The trainer's dog came over to Archer, and Archer growled some, had a bit of anal gland release and some peeing (which makes sense since it's our first actual encounter with another dog), but he recovered in a couple minutes and then went to smell the other dog. He also greeted the two trainers very well, which made me happy since he's not as completely timid or fear-aggressive as I thought. When we walked outside, there was a pit mix walking in that was pulling on his leash towards Archer, but I kept Archer close to me and kept walking and he followed along. As soon as we got back, Archer zonked out in his crate.

We're going back later today for puppy class, where there's some socialization for the puppies to play, obedience training, and confidence-building exercises (which he definitely needs). There is at least one well-mannered adult dog in the group to help out with the puppies and keep them calm, which is way better than letting all the puppies go crazy. He seems to do very well in a calmer, more controlled environment and getting to observe from a distance on his terms, which makes me feel a lot better since I was worried that this would be a massive challenge for us.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

sterlingmaloryarcher said:


> Update on Day 2 with the prong collar: we went on a couple of walks today and our walking is steadily improving. I've gotten better at spotting other dogs, so I was able to cross the street or turn around quickly if I saw one heading our way, and he would turn or walk with me without fighting it like he was doing before. Additionally, a little dog came bounding down the stairs on a retractable lead, just as we were about to head up, and I was able to quickly move/direct Archer out of the way before they collided or had a potential altercation, which would have been way harder on a flat collar. He's also walking much better on the flat collar when we go out for just bathroom breaks.
> 
> I had the training evaluation this morning, with the prong collar, and the trainer was glad to see my using a prong collar correctly and that he was doing well on it. She also double-checked the fit and said that while I could remove a link and go tighter, he is fine for now since he's still young and responds well to the collar as it fits right now. I really like the trainer (lots of experience with GSDs, has one of her own, and Archer liked her right away), so I'll be going to her group classes over the next few months. When we first walked in, there was a little dog across the room that started barking and he shrank back at first but after he realized the dog wasn't going to get close to him, he was fine and started to sniff around like he normally does.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you found a great class. Keep up the good work.


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

My friends adult lab pee's still when he gets excited. He's nearly 6 now and we have never been able to stop him from doing it.

But, thats awesome about the prong. I can honestly say I have never seen one being used, or even for sale over here.


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