# Severe resource guarding of objects-will attack



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

First let me say....I know I screwed up. My 5yr old neutered male was bought from a private sale where the "breeders" just wanted money. He was weaned by 5wks and sold to me by 6wks. I did not do training with him (except for basic..sit, stay, down, mat (place)...nor did i give him the structure and leadership he needs to be a secure and confident fellow.
So now I am starting to try and undo my mistakes...so please no lectures. 
He is a fearful (many noises, vets, new objects) and insecure fellow and seems to almost always have some low level anxiety going on.
I think I made a terrible mistake in letting him always have his kongs as his toys. I never take them away....and actually he will share them with me because he is not afraid of losing them. Actually when in the house ... if he does get ahold of something innapropriate...I can take it with telling him off..but often he will give a little growl before he releases it. When he gives it up he gets a treat.
Where he becomes a danger is when he has an object outdoors...if he is outside and gets an object he will not give it up for anything (even meat or cheese) if you try and take it he will attack violently. The backyard is not fenced so he is on a 70 foot run line. I cannot even play ball because after the first couple of throws...he won't give it up. At this point..when he has a prize...I cannot even get him to come in the house. 
Let me give an example...(I just moved in and as the snow melts I realize the last tenents used the yard as a garbage can..trying to get rid of objects but he keeps finding new things)
Example...yesterday he found half a hard plastic broom head. Not a safe thing... I tried to trade for cheese and did a STUPID thing .... he did drop it for a minute to take treat and I grabbed his collar ... he snapped his head around and almost took a chunk out of me... I released him and he immediately grabbed his prize. He knows he cannot bring these "prizes in the house. If he is at the door and he has dropped it ... I try opening the door a little to offer him come in...but usually he starts snarling and lunging at me and I have to close the door for safety. I put a peanut butter kong slightly through the door jamb to show him there are good things in the house if you give up your "prize"....but it can take up to an hour or more till he is ready to leave the object behind and safely be lured in the house via peanut butter kong. It is a huge issue because there is always something outside....he will even do this over sticks. It is not possible to completely object proof the yard...and I am also afraid that if my neighbors see him acting like a homicidal maniac at the door...he will be reported as a dangerous dog. 
Please keep in mind a couple of things when responding
1. he is very insecure and much of his behavior seems to be fear/insecurity based (I think)
2. although there can be a little growling over objects in the house...this level of attacking over objects only occurs outdoors. 
Please, please could someone advise me step by step how work on this ???
I have watched many videos on drop it, leave it ....but they all seem to be with easy dogs and not super high value objects. I don't get how working on this in the house with things like his kongs (which he isn't insecure about) would work when he has a high value object that he won't give up for anything and would attack violently to protect. 
ps. I can't afford $2000 for a behavioral dog trainer...which was approx the last quote I got. Also I don't have a car or an "assistant" who can help me work on things. It's just me and my dog in the house. 

Sorry this is so long.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Your dog is dangerous and you are scared of him. The only thing I would suggest, you already kiboshed. Which is a trainer. 

Aside from muzzling him when he goes outside, I got nothing. You need a trainer, you need to get rid of Internet, cable, all extras so you can afford the training your dog needs. If you can't, this WILL escalate, and you live alone. It's not safe.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't be too hard on yourself Treena. You're seeing his temperament and maybe with better structure it wouldn't have come to this kind of stuff, but this is what you have. I think everything you'd need to do with him is going to be too dangerous without some really good help.

A muzzle and leash at all times to be safe, but still, you need to think about whether its ever going to be worth it. Do you think you'll ever get to a point where you can actually enjoy owning him?


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

A few thoughts... 

It is possible some of your boy's behavioral issues aren't because of what you did or didn't do. It very well could be genetic. Considering the way you described the breeder that may be likely. Have you spoken to your vet about the behavioral issues? Your dog may be a candidate for medication for his anxiety. I've dealt with a few dogs on various prescriptions. They aren't quick fixes but in my experience definitely helped manage behavioral issues.

Try contacting humane society, shelters, rescues, even animal control. A lot of good organizations deal with pet over population with a multi pronged approach - one of which is doing what they can to keep dogs in their homes. The shelter I volunteered at before I moved actually offered free consultations with a trainer, if you make some calls you may find a similar program in your area.

It is never too late to add structure to your dog's life. Look into NILF. I would pick up all toys. Dog gets nothing until there is more control over the sutuation.

Dogs are pretty decent generalizers. If you start training out with something completely neutral (I wouldn't use a toy, I taught it with empty toilet paper rolls) you should be able to graduate to higher valued objects. Lots of different theories. I had luck with using out as a part of the structure of our tug games (basically making the game boring unless he listened) and trades for super high value items plus getting original item back. I would try to get an assessment done before committing to a technique considering the aggression though.

In the mean time you need to prevent him from accessing any items in the yard. Walk him on a 4 foot leash. Don't let him in the back yard. Muzzle him if need be. Just do not allow him to pick up any of the forbidden items. You need to start over from square one. Allowing that behavior will be a major set back on your retraining.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think it's important to get him at least evaluated by someone that knows the breed and come up with s game plan. Please stay safe. I got bit breaking up a fight. It was a split second bite when I put my leg in front of the dog. The damage was not pretty. I can't imagine a full blown attack.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Your dog is dangerous and you are scared of him. The only thing I would suggest, you already kiboshed. Which is a trainer.
> 
> Aside from muzzling him when he goes outside, I got nothing. You need a trainer, you need to get rid of Internet, cable, all extras so you can afford the training your dog needs. If you can't, this WILL escalate, and you live alone. It's not safe.


This.

:thumbup:


----------



## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

I think you should look into options with a more reasonably priced trainer. You may be overwhelmed by some high prices that were quoted to you, but I paid only $200- for a first two-session training and signed on now for a two month program for around $800-, and I am Ontario too. Keep looking and ask around, other dog owners on this forum may have trainer recommendations at a lower price. He has been given a lot of freedom on a very long line outside to "practice" these negative behaviours and I think you should immediately put an end to this. No more long line or free time outside, period, until you get this under control. He walks on a leash only. If the backyard is the only environment where these behaviours happen then no more backyard for now. Make sure he getting plenty of exercise, an hour at least a day of walking. Good luck, you are in a tough position, and this was a good place to come to for support.


----------



## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

gsdsar said:


> *Your dog is dangerous and you are scared of him.* The only thing I would suggest, you already kiboshed. Which is a trainer.
> 
> Aside from muzzling him when he goes outside, I got nothing. You need a trainer, you need to get rid of Internet, cable, all extras so you can afford the training your dog needs. If you can't, this WILL escalate, and you live alone. It's not safe.



This does need a professional to help you right away. He knows you are scared of him and knows you will back down. Someone telling you not to act scared is not going to help you at all...

Until you find you some help, do like someone else suggested. Take up all the toys, very strict NILIF, crate him inside or have him on a drag leash. Look up the 2 week shutdown. I know he is not a new dog but you both need a reset to catch your breath and he needs structure. I agree with the no access to outside for a while, only onlead walks with a muzzle.

But please don't stop looking for help. And until you find it, stop rewarding bad behaviors.


----------



## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

This comment isn't directed at you Treena, I just got so upset reading your post. He is holding you hostage.

When I was lots and lots younger I stupidly stepped in between 2 of my dogs fighting over food. I got bit, he bit me on purpose, it wasn't redirection. I pissed him off and he bit me. I lost my temper and we had a come to jesus meeting right then and there. I'm 5'6 and 120lbs and he was about 75lbs. I'm not proud of that moment, but after that he always treated me with respect.

I don't know why I am sharing that, I just can't imagine being in your shoes. Please find some help with this.


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

Thank you so much for the balanced advise and encouragement and explaining (hopefully)that he will make the connection with working indoors on other items. 
I understand that some of the posters are concerned.....but he is not a psycho who is going to kill me in my sleep...in fact when he doesn't have an outdoor prize in his mouth or see another dog on walk.....he is full of love and intelligence and wants very much to please and learn. He is safe , eager and enthusiastic about learning things...in the house. He is a dog with some bad behaviors that I have let get severe. I have also considered thyroid testing (and I am not saying this is the cause of bad behaviors) but I am saying that his nervousness and over reactions are extreme...when I mentioned it to the vet he just brushed it off because my boy is actually underweight not over...and his coat is dull but not terrible. He sheds year round but my vet dismissed that also. I am looking for another vet. Unfortunately..a full thyroid panel is around $600
His free yard time will be taken away. I had already thought of taking him for quickies in the yard on a leash so I can be sure he doesn't get anything and I also think it says "hey buddy...this is my yard...you don't get to do whatever you want". He doesn't do this on walks as he is far too engaged in other sights and smells to be bothered. Unfortunately his other issue of dog to dog aggression comes into play...will be working on that one too. 
As for a muzzle in the yard....not only is he frightened of inanimate object coming at him....I don't see how he would make the connection that putting a muzzle on before going out means "don't pick up things in the yard". Think managing him on leash teaches more. 
I will post asking for some trainer suggestions..I did find someone with an approach I like but she is in the States and would need to do phone consults...she is sane and seems to have a balanced approach and cost is reasonable....but (and I guess this is an endorsement) she is super busy. 
I believe strongly given what I see in him that he can be rehabilitated. If we euthanized every person who ever lashed out from fear and anxiety or had mental/emotional issues....it would be a much smaller world indeed.
As for the poster who said something to the effect of "I should just tighten up my financial belt and get rid of extras like cable"....Wow..I am not going to air my financial laundry on this forum..suffice it to say that right now I am just managing rent, food and utilities. There are no extras. In fact I just started him on a raw diet which I was hoping would help his general health and nervousness....and a larger portion of my grocery budget goes to him than me...but I am seeing some improvements in general well being and I really want to try and stick with it. Makes me wonder about a physical component because his anxiety has decreased a little with the new diet.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Treena - This is going to be very difficult. You're talking about reversing 5 years of a dog's life with your dog, in his mind leader..... How are you going to reverse this on your own without help when you are the subordinate? In a dog's world when a leader get's challenged by their subordinate a battle will ensue....

That's why people are telling you to be very, very careful and don't rock the boat on your own because you will become the target of friction.....

You simply need pro help to get this done. Hopefully, you can find a way to get that. The dog's not bad - but if you want changes... it's pretty likely he's going to lash out until he's trained and at peace with the new order.....


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

Thanks .... actually did have a trainer mention kennel lockdown ... but I have no idea how to go about it .... but I am absolutely willing to do it. I don't have a drag leash but I do still have his two big wire kennels that I used when he was young. 
I know peanut butter was rewarding bad behavior .... it was the only way I could think to get him in the house again. 
If you know how lockdown works or if you know of good resources I would appreciate it. Lots of quack theories on the internet and I don't want to do more damage to him than good.


----------



## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

if you do a forum search on 2 week shutdown it should come up. 

if it doesn't, just google it.

as for the drag leash, any leash will do in a pinch, no need to buy a special one. It just allows you to be able to get control of him in the house without grabbing his collar.


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

I am absolutely open to help....I want help because I don't know where to start or how to go about this. I just need to find help that I can afford. In the meantime I have been trying to do what I can .... such as diet change ... and teaching him proper leash work in the house and other minor changes such as not letting him dictate when he gets affection. He has always had to sit and wait for meals...so food has never been an issue. When I eat he goes to "mat" etc. For the last year no bed or furniture privledges.


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

Thank you so much. It's a little overwhelming because he has a few issues. Guess start with the most important ? Object aggression and proper leash walking - wanting to attack other dogs on walk ?


----------



## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

I found this old post. It describes the shutdown very well. Hope it helps.

*If I could stress one of the biggest errors people make with new dogs and foster dogs it is rushing the dog into the new world so fast . This shut down gives the dog a chance to say “ahhh” take a breath and restart into its new world.
*
From people I have helped I hear;
"I introduced her to 15 people the first day I had her!" ;" he was a bit leery but seems to like my other 3 dogs" ; "she went everywhere with me "
All in the first few days of the new home..... (!!!)

two weeks later we hear;
" I think we will have to rehome the new dog" "the new dog barked and nipped at my kid" - "we had a dog fight" ; “the new dog barked at me for moving him off the couch”

Ok, folks, here it comes, some feel this is extreme, why? I really do not know.
But when bringing in a new dog, post finding, adoption, buying, etc, Give it time to adjust to you and your family and the dogs in the new environment.
Just as if it were a new baby or puppy, we wouldn’t think of rushing out with a baby or puppy, yet with older pups and dogs we just expect them to take our lives in all at once!

TWO WEEKS - "shut down"
For the first two weeks, (sometimes even longer) a dog takes in the new environment, who is the top person, or animal, who ARE these people!? By pushing a dog too fast, and throwing too much at the dog we look like we are not the leaders,and the dog can feel it MUST defend itself , as the leader is surely no one he has met so far!

We coo , coodle, drag the dog to home to home to person to person, and the dog has NO idea who we are. We correct for things it doesn’t understand, we talk in a new human language using words he does not know.

A key thing to remember is "this is the dating period NOT the honeymoon"
When you first met your "spouse or significant other”, you were on your best behavior, you were not relaxed enough to be all of yourself, were you?
Just think of the things you do physically once you get to KNOW a person,
you wouldn’t run up to a stranger and hug them and squeeze them!
Imagine, if on the first date, this new person, was all over you touching you and having their friends hug you and pat you on the head, and jostle your shoulders, looked in your mouth then he whisked you off to another strangers home and they did the same thing.

Would you think this person normal and SAFE? Wouldn’t you feel invaded and begin to get a bit snarky or defensive yourself? Wouldn’t you think to push these people away for obviously your date is out of their mind, as they aren’t going to save you from these weirdoes!!
Yet we do this very thing to our dogs, and then get upset or worried that they aren’t relaxed and accepting of EVERYTHING instantly!

By shutting down the dog, it gives the dog TIME to see you , meet YOU, hear and take in the new sounds and smells of your home and all the people in it. In the 1st two weeks;
.
Crate the dog in a room by itself if possible.(Believe me, dogs are sensory animals, they know more than you think without seeing it).
Leash the dog (so I don’t have to correct it ..you don’t have that right yet!), give it exercise time in the yard on lunge line or in fenced yard..but other than that.. LEASH , (yes..leash in the house too.)
Do no training at all, just fun exercise and maybe throw some toys for fun, leash the dog if you don’t have a fence outside. But DO NOT leave the yard, AT ALL.

No car rides, no other dogs, (unless crated beside them), no pet stores, no WALKS even, nothing but you and household family, your home, your yard. (Unless of course the dog needs to go to the veterinarian) 
Believe me dogs can live two weeks without walks. Walks are stressful for there is so much coming at you and your dog! And the dog has no clue who you are yet. The dog may react to something and we start correcting it with the leash and we just installed a VERY STRESSFUL moment to the dog in what should be a fun and learning walk.

TEACH the dog by doing the shut down, that YOU are the one to look to, that you are now here for the dog! He can trust in you and look to you for guidance. Then you can venture out into new situations one at a time, the dog knows he can trust in his new humans and can relax under the fair guidance of his new leaders!

In the house take the dog out only for about 20-30 minute intervals, post exercise/yard times., and ALWAYS on a leash when in the house or in an unfenced yard. Exercise is important! Running and free time are stress relievers, but don’t set your dog up for failure, make exercise and yard time fun and relaxing and tiring!

Then PUT THE DOG AWAY. let it absorb and think and relax. Ignore crying or barking, just like a new born baby, he must find security when you are not right there, and if you run to him each time he will think barking and crying will get your attention.

I do not introduce resident dogs for these two weeks, they can be side by side in the crates, (not nose to nose for they can feel defensive) . Some dogs will bond instantly with the other dogs if we don’t bond FIRST with the dog, and this can lead to some other issues, as the dog will look to the other dog(s) for guidance and not YOU!

Literally in two weeks you will see a change in the dog and begin to see its honest and true personality. Just like a house guest, they are well behaved and literally shut down and “polite” themselves these first few weeks, then post this time, they relax and the true personality begins to shine thru.

So, please,, if nothing else for your new dog, give it the time to LEARN YOU as you are learning who they are! *This method works on shy dogs,confident dogs, abuse cases, chained dogs that come in, rowdy dogs, all temperaments!*
(I did not write this, but did glean it from the 'net before the webpage it was on went away) 







   







06-21-2012, 01:19 PM


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

That's great. He's got some basics. The only thing I would like to caution you about is that you will get a lot of different suggestions here. Some will conflict. There are distinctive very different training methods and one step will hinge and work in conjunction with another.... If you change up methods without knowing, you could send conflicting signals to the dog.... this could cause problems.

I hope the best for you guys, but please - build a method- drill people here on the whole step process. It's the internet and everything's fragmented and that's where you could make a major misstep without a trainer.

I have never seen a conflict with the two week time out method. But you need to ask questions, lots of them. What is the 2 week timeout?. What daily routines are maintained during this time? ANY changes during this time (training or otherwise advised)? Diet Change during this time advised?


----------



## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Here's a resource you may find helpful, about our frame of mind when dog training. All the best, let us know how you go  

https://thegooddoglifeblog.com/2015/12/29/the-substitute-teacher-syndrome/


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

Thank you that's great. A clear explanation. I assume after two weeks I start adding in training work on one issue at a time ?

I do have one problem that I don't know how to address in regards to the crate....I have a small business and currently see clients at home. Right now he gets put in the kitchen with a baby gate. He barks like crazy but settles after a few minutes. How do I handle him being in crate when a client comes ?? I know he will go ballistic and claw at the bars causing emotional and possibly physical trauma. 
Should I just stick with having him gated in the kitchen like I have always done? I have done it like this for years but if he is crated all the time .... will being loose in the kitchen when clients come seem like a reward for his bad barking ??? 
ps. I have never seen him be aggressive to guests...he gets crazy hyper excited and barks like crazy....and these are clients ... so I put him in the kitchen because he has no place interacting with them ...nor do they want to meet a hyper big dog.


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

Yes thank you .... that's exactly it. I am not rushing just yet although these behaviours are pressing. For now I am going to keep working on leash with no free yard...and try and develop a lock down training plan. I need to have the steps down on paper because I don't want to start something and run into situations that I don't know what I am doing or what to do next or do something wrong and confuse my lad even more ! 
But thank you all so much tonight for the first time in ages I am feeling hopeful. I wish you could meet my fellow ..... he really isn't the demon dog that I may have given the impression of at first. He has so many beautiful qualities. I know if I get my **** together and put the time in....he can be amazing. I see so much love, intelligence, sensitivity and a goofy sense of play in him. I have done wrong by him...by not being a leader and helping him to be secure. It's time to do right by him !


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

*Leash question*

He is terrible on leash and I have only just started working with him on prong collar in the house....in fact he is still at the stage of giving in to pressure...haven't even got to heeling yet...

1. so he doesn't even know this stuff yet but he has to go out for business and clearly I cant give him free yard priveledges any more...do I just not worry about his pulling and poor leash behavior outside for now.....and just keep working on proper leash in the house ?? again don't want to give mixed messages.

2. when I try and work on leash in the house he often grabs the leash and tries to tug of war....I let go, sit down and ignore him....when he stops acting like a goof I try again...but alot of times he just goes back to tug of war..at which point I take the collar off ...put it away...and go to the living room and he gets no attention whatsoever. This doesn't seem to be working because the next time I do a session he is right back to tug of war....I don't know if this is dominance or he is just plain frustrated "like okay ..tiny walks in the kitchen are boring...let's go already !!!"
Suggestions on how to stop tug of war please and get his focus on training ?? 
(Also more confusion...I don't have tug toys and if I understand correctly..he should not be getting toys till we can work on drop it/leave it)
Thank you for being patient with all the questions...I'm asking a lot of them because I don't want to give him mixed/confusing signals.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My suggestion. Do nothing until you do some homework. Here's a Wiki link; this will lead you to 4 different approaches to dog training. Check out each one. You could spend every minute of your spare time in the next two weeks studying these methods alone. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_training

When you understand about the methods. Then ask questions about which method is best (you'll get different answers) and then you can proceed.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Do you have a prong collar for him?


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I am thinking that the lack of structure in your guy's life and letting him get away with bad behaviors has lead to dominance issues. That actually may be a cause for his general underlying anxiety too. If he is not a natural leader type him being in that position might be stressing him out.

I'm usually not one to jump in with the leerburg recommendations, but he does have a good 3 1/2 video dealing with aggression problems.

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/557/Dealing_with_Dominant_and_Aggressive_Dogs

It's been a few years since I watched it but I do believe he advocates a version of the two week shut down and had some pretty sound advice.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

1) He is a fearful (many noises, vets, new objects) and insecure fellow and seems to almost always have some low level anxiety going on.

2) Where he becomes a danger is when he has an object outdoors...if he is outside and gets an object he will not give it up for anything (even meat or cheese) if you try and take it he will attack violently

**** danger and will attack violently****

3) I try opening the door a little to offer him come in...but usually he starts snarling and lunging at me and I have to close the door for safety

4) afraid that if my neighbors see him acting like a homicidal maniac at the door...he will be reported as a dangerous dog.

**** well I guess so ! , and tied out on a line which isn't much for security -- dog could back out of collar , dog could break line or break the snap . Seeing the owner scared is not reassuring ****

5) again -- those words --- would attack violently to protect.

the dog is dangerous . 
You are afraid . 

Bad combination. 
Bad breeding . Bad temperament -- genetic core which is inherited and always present -- "bred-in-the-bone" .
Your backyard breeders , didn't know, didn't care . 

Bad early situation -- bad combination. 

So it isn't how you raised the dog . Don't beat yourself up.

Psychoanalysing the dog will not help.

This goes far beyond the dog needing some nutritional support !

Contacting "..I did find someone with an approach I like but she is in the States and would need to do phone consults...she is sane and seems to have a balanced approach and cost is reasonable....but (and I guess this is an endorsement) she is super busy"

Oh please don't . Do not waste your money . Phone consults won't do it . 
The approach you like may be the worst , most ineffective , inadequate thing for the dog and yourself . 

You could put yourself at risk for a nasty bite because this dog with bad temperament , shaky reactive defensive nervous disposition probably has a very low tolerance, low threshold , and will react aggressively - quick as a snake strike - you'll never see it coming . The dog will panic.


Local Ottawa trainers ? 

Melanie Wooley - Stalworth GSD , Heart of Oak farm
Mission / History | Canadian Service Dog Foundation

I believe "Shade" has one of her dogs? 

von Tighe GSD , Wendelin Farms (on the Quebec side of the provincial borders) -- any of the local IPO clubs .

As it stands you have a dog who is a big risk --- liability , you are his prisoner .
He can't be enjoying his life and you aren't getting the pleasure and satisfaction that a pet owner deserves and expects .

sorry


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I am thinking that the lack of structure in your guy's life and letting him get away with bad behaviors has lead to dominance issues. That actually may be a cause for his general underlying anxiety too. If he is not a natural leader type him being in that position might be stressing him out."

do not agree . His genetic background is probably a nervy mess . It wouldn't matter which home he fell into he would still be the same . 

stop throwing around "dominance" ideas 

"when I try and work on leash in the house he often grabs the leash and tries to tug of war....I let go, sit down and ignore him....when he stops acting like a goof I try again...but alot of times he just goes back to tug of war..at which point I take the collar off ...put it away...and go to the living room and he gets no attention whatsoever. This doesn't seem to be working because the next time I do a session he is right back to tug of war...."

everything about this dog is about AVOIDANCE

watch out with the prong and giving him corrections - he may come right out for you --- low thresholds, low tolerance , easily stimulated -- fear -- avoidance


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here are some hardball questions

you are looking for a new vet - a vet that is raw food sympathetic --- is there more to it ? Did you not like some comments from your old vet re- temperament.
You did say the dog is fearful of the vet . Was there a tipping point incident?

has the dog bitten anyone ? 
clean and straight no matter what "extenuating circumstances" or attempted justifications - has the dog bitten you, has the dog bitten anyone?


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Treena - carmspack knows these dogs a hundred times over. She's asking you several serious questions. Give her the honest answers. Do you see what she's trying to get at? The dog's temperament is being questioned as in it's not all about you..... help her - help you.....


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The muzzle is not to teach him, it's to protect you. So you can more safely engage with the dog when in his "state"

I am sorry I said anything about finances, you are right, none of my business. I get frustrated when people have a VERY serious issue and say, right out of the gate "but I can't afford a trainer so tell me how to fix my horrible issue over the Internet without ever seeing my dog or me". 

You avoid issues with this dog, leash training for example, and the dog has learned that any small amount of push back from him and you quit trying. No wonder his behavior has not gotten any better and no wonder his aggression outside has worked. Because you capitulate to him when he give a fuss. 

But I don't think at this point you changing that, is safe. These problems get worse before they better. And since he is scared of "things coming at his face" you can't muzzle him. So you are vulnerable. 

Please don't pay someone over the phone. This is not an appropriate case for a phone consult. Take Carmens advice of the trainers she gave you. 

Good luck.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Is this dog getting any exercise? You said you can't play ball because he guards the ball and it doesn't sound like he can be walked either? And no fenced yard? = enormous amount of excess energy and frustration. Can you get a cheap/free treadmill off craigslist and treadmill train him in the mean time?


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

yes he goes for walks and has always had a prong collar but was pulling like crazy still and also has dog reactivity so I had put a temp hold on walks till I got a handle on training him properly on leash. Just wanted to mention another poster said be careful with prong collar....he is not fearful/reactive with prong...if anything he has totally ignored corrections in the past due to improper use. Also when practicing in house...his leash tug of war truly was trying to engage in play..bouncy..tail wagging..I have added treats to training and that has re focused him away from tug of war. He is doing well at responding to pressure from prong and moving into it rather than resisting...want to work on that till it's a "body memory"...then move on to heel.


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

On a slightly lighter note.....how do you signify the end of a training session ? Is there an accepted word to use ? Do you get him to sit first then use "free" as the word cue for example ? Right now I am doing proper leash training in the house. When done a session I just get him to sit ... then I take off the collar...but he seems a little baffled ... like there is no clear sign to him that we are done.


----------



## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

I tell mine "all done".


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I like to keep training session short and begin and end with something either fun, or something the dog does well, so you can begin and end with some fun/success and praise. 

I agree with using a real, hands-on trainer to address these issues though. Think of it this way, if your dog needs digestive enzymes, or some expensive meds, would you find the money for this? Look at his behavior issue as a death sentence. If you do not get him the help he needs, then no reprieve. 

If this is genetic, it does not mean that a good trainer cannot help you to manage the situation better, so that you and the dog are in a much better place.


----------



## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

I would also add, if you are going to pass on the yard time for now (and I would), you can't really pass on walks as well, thus offering the dog no exercise, outlet at all - could you find a quiet time to walk him where distractions are at a minimum and he can get the exercise he needs? A flirt pole maybe, something??? The boy needs to burn off some steam. Any Ottawa folks out there that can recommend a reasonably priced trainer?


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

*Some sucess !*

Thank you all for the great suggestions.
1. I am looking into trainers
2. will be taking him for walks late so there are few distractions and he can succeed. 
Q. since he still pulls alot on walks...do I just let that slide for now and focus on exercise ?....or should I be correcting/rewarding on real walks ? I don't want to confuse him so that he thinks he only needs to behave on leash in the house. 

We had a big success today that I would like to share...so here is the catch 22.
I realized something important. I never taught him proper drop it/leave it as a pup..I just took things away. Whether it was toys at the end of play/objects I didn't want him to have. So we got in a circle of him not giving up things...so me not playing with him with toys.
What I realized is that when he first gets an object in his mouth...he is not cross about it .... he is trying to engage me in play. It's when I approach him with a head space of "oh my god, I must take it away" that he reacts badly. 
ie. the original example I used...when he got the broom head in the yard. I was out with him when he got it .... at first he brought it up to me ... ran off...brought it back...ran off...tail wagging and doing the "crouchy/bouncy" thing if you know what I mean. He also tried playing with himself...tossing it a little ways and fetching it himself. I reacted with fear and frustration....predicting a difficult situation. He does not get cross when he first has an object ....It hit me ....duh, this dog desperately wants to play. 
As I mentioned before..he has two kongs that I have never taken away...and drop it/leave it are no issue with him. In fact he will often come up and try and engage me in play by depositing a slimy kong in my lap and sitting and waiting.
So today I thought let's try this with a totally different energy... I had cleaned the yard so there was nothing that would be a danger..but left a few pieces of wood...he has a thing for wood. I went and sat out with him and it wasn't long before he found a piece of wood in similar size and shape to a doorstop....armed with little cheese squares and a calm patient attitude...I was able to get him to drop it (treat)leave it ...take the wood in one hand(treat with other hand) give him back the wood....repeat. He must have done this successfully 15 times and would have happily done it all day! I let him bring the wood in the house because I thought it better to "close out" in a more controlled environment. He came in the house happily with no problem. I did the drop it leave it a few more times with the wood but realized if I take it away forever ...we will be back to square one...so I traded it for the kong BUT continued to "play" drop/leave for more treats so that he felt like the wood being gone didn't mean the fun was over. 
I finally figured out what he values more than the object itself ...in fact in and of itself..I don't think he really gives a crap about the object as such...he wants the play !
All the above was done with not the slightest hint of aggression !!
Sorry this is so long..I was so pleased I wanted to share....yes he has a long way to go...but the good news is that he really wants to please/learn and loves the interaction. 
If anyone has ideas on how to improve the above process I would love to hear !
ps. I know there may be situations in the future where for safety I may need to just get him to drop something and take it .. period ... but let's start with just building up some trust.


----------



## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

Treena, I think what yal did today is great! I'm glad the TWO of you had a positive play session. That's what training is, a play session IMO. My two get so happy when we engage in something, anything, as long as they have my attention!

Still be careful and look into training. About the walking though, I can only tell you what I would do, from my experience with my dogs. If your dog is getting accustom to the prong with leash pressure, it's time to take it outside. You said you got your yard cleaned up so start walking training in your yard. Get some treats and treat when he responds correctly. Practice walking around your yard. While doing this throw in some obedience here and there. You don't have to leave your property to exercise your dog. I am currently recovering from back surgery and I walk my dogs on leash in my yard. 

When he gets good about walking in the yard, move it up and down the street. Take baby steps, we want to not reinforce his pulling so don't work above his abilities. He will get plenty of exercise like this because he is also using his mind.

Good luck.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like you are onto something good.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

pretty refreshing to have a person actually take advice to heart instead of becoming combative argumentative .

this gives incentive to really get behind this person , help them, help their dog.

there might be a ray of sunshine -- good work Miss.

trust is a two way street -- go slow , end on a positive note so that the dog looks forward to the next structured session -- wants more ! 

just this is a reward in itself .

in the meantime stay away from those times and situations where there is a build up of excitability -- such as meeting up with dogs -- get that focus on yourself first - 

if you want , since you are fairly local , I can lend you a book from my personal library -- https://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB1301 --

but you have to return it -- 

this does not mean that you can forgo meeting up with a trainer


----------



## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

carmspack said:


> pretty refreshing to have a person actually take advice to heart instead of becoming combative argumentative .
> 
> this gives incentive to really get behind this person , help them, help their dog.
> 
> ...



I wish there was a like button for posts! Very cool of you!


----------



## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

Treena, about the muzzle.

Like someone said, it's for safety, yours, other people's other dogs and most importantly your dog. It's a good thing for* EVERY *dog to be conditioned to the muzzle. You never know when you might need it, and it would be so much better to already be accepting if the need ever came up.

Both of mine are accepting of the muzzle, and will wear one ever so often just to stay that way. You never know! I use a basket muzzle, they tolerate it well. What I did was baby steps, very slowly. First I put peanut butter on the inside of the muzzle, very messy but the dogs love it. I held the muzzle and let them lick it off, then I would treat lol although the peanut butter should have been enough. I just wanted the muzzle to be the bringer of lots of good things. 

After a few days of them sticking their noses in to get the peanut butter, I started naming the behavior. I say "let's put it on" silly I know. Then I nixed the peanut butter but stuck a treat into the end so they could get it. The next step, I just held the straps in place. Then I finally strapped it on and treated like crazy.

It took me about 2 weeks with 2 sessions a day to get them accustomed. I wanted to go slow and not push things too fast. Now they "put it on" and wear it for a short period of time once every couple of weeks and they know they are gonna get something good. They see the muzzle and run and stick there noses in it.

Really consider getting one.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As long as you're already working on this stuff. You might get "Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding" by Jean Donaldson. A real trainer is better (WAY BETTER) but this book could help you starting to deal with this withour breaking the bank.

And also, all trainers are so not created equal. I encourage you to thoroughly vet any prospective trainers, possibly on this forum. Did Carmspack recommend someone to you? I may be remembering wrong but if she did, go with that


----------



## Treena (Mar 24, 2016)

Thanks to the cowboysgirl....I will check out the book.
Selzer...thanks for the encouragement...I had gotten in such a negative isolated place that I wasn't seeing the obvious. Like today when I took a breath and looked at it differently .. and saw that he just wanted the interaction. 

I was able to see that thanks to talking to you guys.

To Rosy...I already have a basket muzzle. Was working on it a few months ago (but let it slide) so I don't think it would be a prob to train that. I almost had him at the point of putting his own nose in ... but the problem is that the first time he has a negative experience ie. putting it on to go to the vets....he doesn't forget things...so the next time I try to get it on in the house...there will be no freaking way....suggestions ?
Thanks.re training..that's totally it.....what I call training .. he calls "wow, I'm interacting with mom AND I get treats. Cool " lol. I think I will take your advice and yard walk for awhile because he gets super excited about street walking and pulls like crazy. Thanks
ps. he doesn't care what we do as long as it's together..ie. I play a silly game with him..when I put on my make up..I say blush for mommy and I put it on .. then blush for Iagan and pretend to put some on him...he just loves being "part of things" and thinks it's a hoot and I also think maybe it helps him to get used to different objects in a fun way ! ...but we won't tell the other boy dogs in the hood that he likes pretending to wearing make up. lol.


----------



## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

About the muzzle training. 
Just do it (the treat thing) and do it often. Muzzle-up = treats, every day.
My cats get fed in cages, everyday (almost). When it's time to go the vet, in they go. They don't associate the cage with vet visits because it is an important desired part of their life.
My dogs go to the vet in a car. They love getting into the car because 99% of the time, car ride equals fun and inclusion (trips to parks, forests, or just going along for an errand) so the rare visit doesn't change that.
So I don't think you need to worry about the muzzle changing from good to scary, as long as you watch your timing when putting it on.
It should help give you peace of mind and confidence. A relaxed confident you will help your dog too.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I agree about muzzle, you can counter condition and undo the bad experience. Do you know how to use a clicker? It is a handful, muzzle, clicker and high value food, but if you condition him to clicker ahead if time and then click and feed him when be puts his nose in, he will get it. You can use the clicker to help with resource guarding, too.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

PS, I am glad you are able to increase your interaction with him, meeting more of his needs and bonding more with him will probably help solve the problem. But do remember to be careful. This dog has made some pretty major threats against you in the past. 

You can't afford to get too comfortable with him yet. And I don't mean you should be fearful, but you do need to research about treating resource guarding and starting work @ the place where he is very likely to succeed and you are very unlikely to get bitten. I think I read somewhere that you had cleaned up but left some wood because "he has a thing for wood" to work on it. I would want to start work with something he DOESN'T have a thing for. I think the trading exercise is rven in that book I recommended to you and she talks about giving the dog somehting like a rock, something they don't care about, to start

I have often seen people start at too difficult a level or progress to quickly and if you make a mistake like that you may get hurt.

So that's my word of caution I guess....just pause before anything you do, think it through, think of the possible outcomes....I usually make mistakes with my dogs when I am not pausing and really thinking through ahead of time, have we done ALL the groundwork to succeed at this? How did this dog react under these circumstances in the past? Am I prepared to handle any outcome (physical ability, equipment skill and techniques) When I really consider all that, we usually have great success. But if I am in a hurry, pressed for time, not firing on all cylinders for whatever reason, ect ect, I might get into a situation where I am lacking the right equipment, or i have over faced the dog, or whatever and so we have a fail.


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

It's obvious you have some major training issues to work through and it looks like you are getting on the right track. 

An observation from many of your posts is that your boy seems very bored. He needs exercise... a lot of exercise. A tired dog is good dog.

My non-expert opinion is that some of the behavior you are seeing may also be stemming from frustration/anxiety born of boredom. You frequently state he is looking for you to play. He has pent up energy and doesn't know what to do with it resulting in some of his bad behaviors. Like trying to play tug with the leash. That may be avoidance or just that he wanted to play. 

As you rebuild your leadership role with you dog you might try researching mind games, too. Exercise for this breed can be as much about the mind as it is physical. 

General obedience sessions works their minds and tires them. So do mind games like finding the hidden treats. Teaching find it is great mind exercises. This is something you can do in your house and yard (on a leash in the yard once you achieve better leash manners).

You can make puzzle toys out old shoe boxes. Hide a treat, kibble or his kong in one box. Hide that box in a stack of boxes and have him find the treasure. You can put your dog in one room. Hide treats or kibble around another room and then let your dog out and teach him to "find" the treasures. Simple things that work his mind and burn energy while you work on the harder issues that are limiting his physical exercise outside the house. 

I hope you are able to find a good trainer to help you along the way with your behavior modifications.


----------

