# Natural Dogs and how you build them up?



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

One thing I am really worried about is that once we start protection training, the helper puts too much pressure on the dog because she's a natural. If you have a natural, green dog that is biting hard and has a grip like a cement block how do you build them up without a helper getting all excited and a little overboard? 

It's one thing that really really worries me is that the helper disregards my wishes because I've never titled a dog before, puts too much pressure on a young, green dog just because they want to see how far they can go and just because they think they can take it. 

So how much say should the helper have in how much pressure he puts on the dog? And how would you, as a helper react if somebody like me would tell you that I do not want him to put pressure on the dog since she's green and that I want her to be *built up *slowly and pressure built up slowly as well?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I approach the protection work not as how much pressure a dog can take, but how a helper can bring out the fight in the dog. For me it shouldn't be about always putting pressure on and having to desensitize a dog to pressure. The helper should know how to stimulate the dog's drives so the dog feels in control and is active rather than reactive. I like my dog to think he's the one putting pressure on the helper


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I guess I approach the protection work not as how much pressure a dog can take, but how a helper can bring out the fight in the dog. For me it shouldn't be about always putting pressure on and having to desensitize a dog to pressure. The helper should know how to stimulate the dog's drives so the dog feels in control and is active rather than reactive. I like my dog to think he's the one putting pressure on the helper


That is exactly what I'd like to have too. Not sure how to translate that but I want her to be "gefoerdert" not "gefordert" I guess you could say "stimulated" and not "stipulated" ? Does that make sense?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If you are working with a good helper than he/she will do the right work for the dog.


----------



## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> One thing I am really worried about is that once we start protection training, the helper puts too much pressure on the dog because she's a natural. If you have a natural, green dog that is biting hard and has a grip like a cement block how do you build them up without a helper getting all excited and a little overboard?
> 
> It's one thing that really really worries me is that the helper disregards my wishes because I've never titled a dog before, puts too much pressure on a young, green dog just because they want to see how far they can go and just because they think they can take it.
> 
> So how much say should the helper have in how much pressure he puts on the dog? And how would you, as a helper react if somebody like me would tell you that I do not want him to put pressure on the dog since she's green and that I want her to be *built up *slowly and pressure built up slowly as well?


Suggestion:
Have someone who has experience watch the helper work your dog, and make sure that it is in fact too much pressure for the dog. There are a lot of subtleties to working a dog, and sometimes the helper has the best read on when to pressure and when to yield. Just to verify your perceptions as accurate, another opinion and set of eyes can never hurt.

Regardless of the opinions of others, whether they are other handlers, or the helper, a good helper will respect your wishes, and work the dog in accordance with your comfort level. Trust your gut instincts, since it is your dog, if the helper does not work the dog the way you want, find another helper, if you have the option.

It is the job of the helper to build the dog's confidence, not break it. The helper's role in protection work is to build confidence in the dog by allowing it to win...at some point, pressure is applied, but that is where the experience level of the helper comes in, and that pressure is applied judiciously, appropriate for the age and character of the dog.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What Lisa said.....a bigger problem for me is the owner often giving directions to the helper that is counterproductive to the dog. We work our green dogs on helpers that are experienced and can read dogs. Our learning helper are often worked on the older accomplished dogs. I have seen helpers that push the dog's thresholds too far,(often when a new dog is worked at a new setting). But a lot has to do with knowledge of the owner and skills/knowledge of the helper. When I work my training director's dog I usually do what he asks me to do, most of the other members in the club I pretty much have the trust to work their dogs as I read them. It all depends on the people at both ends of the leash....not cut and dried answer. imo.


----------



## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> What Lisa said.....a bigger problem for me is the owner often giving directions to the helper that is counterproductive to the dog. We work our green dogs on helpers that are experienced and can read dogs. Our learning helper are often worked on the older accomplished dogs. I have seen helpers that push the dog's thresholds too far,(often when a new dog is worked at a new setting). But a lot has to do with knowledge of the owner and skills/knowledge of the helper. When I work my training director's dog I usually do what he asks me to do, most of the other members in the club I pretty much have the trust to work their dogs as I read them. It all depends on the people at both ends of the leash....not cut and dried answer. imo.


What Cliffson said: 
Less experienced dog = more experienced helper necessary
More experienced dog = less experienced helper necessary

Much more margin for error when working an experienced dog...whereas a mistake with an inexperienced one can set you back dramatically.


----------



## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Certainly depends on the experience level of the handler as well, and this even applies to experience with dogs in general. For an experienced handler I pretty much do what they want me to do. I might make a suggestion here and there, and almost always after the work is done. I find that a lot of inexperienced handlers have no idea what they want from their dog, let alone a plan to get there.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I think I'm somewhat a weird case. I know too much for my own good without actually having the practical experience on the field myself.

That combination doesn't make it easy to work with someone but I did learn to shut up and listen.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me it's about finding a helper that not only has experience and can properly read and work dogs (and safely too!) but also views the protection work the same way I do, so we have the same understanding of how to develop my dog and what the end result would look like. After over two years with one helper (all the foundation work on one dog and most of it on the other) I'm switching to a different helper this month, someone who has already worked both my dogs several times and has never caused conflict because he is the person training my regular helper, so all three of us are on the same page about both my dogs (even though the dogs are *very* different). I don't have to micro-manage my protection work; I do trust my helpers but only because I know they are working my dogs from the same "big picture" that I have in my mind. Like others have said it is a balance of knowing what's best for your dog and directing your program, and finding a good helper you trust. For me the trust is not just "do exactly what I say because it's my dog" but having a clear understanding of where we are headed with the dog and why.

I belong to another club where I rarely if ever do protection with my dogs. It's not that the helpers are terrible but they don't have the same picture that I do so when it comes to protection I either ask them to do very specific things (usually not part of a SchH routine) or tie a dog out for barking if another dog needs help barking but most of the time my dogs sit out protection. I don't care to argue with them about how they work dogs because for all I know I'm wrong and they are right but in this case I exercise my rights to direct my own training program. It would be in conflict with what we have been doing with my regular helper and new helper (who is not "new" but has been training many breeds of dogs in SchH since it has been in this country).


----------



## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

You should talk to the helper prior to each session and ask "what is it we are going to be doing this session". This will only make the sessin go smoother for all three of you. If you do not understand "why" , ask the helper to explain it to you. We must be careful not to hurt any feelings...but the more you learn the faster the training will go.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> without actually having the practical experience on the field myself.


I think that's the key, though. I doubt many experienced helpers would appreciate being micromanaged by someone who has very little actual experience on the field working dogs in protection.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> > without actually having the practical experience on the field myself.
> 
> 
> I think that's the key, though. I doubt many experienced helpers would appreciate being micromanaged by someone who has very little actual experience on the field working dogs in protection.


I don't want to micromanage a helper. Talking to the helper and voicing my concern and wishes is not micromanaging. Is it? 

Maybe it's not all that bad when a helper actually knows what my concerns are. Get everything out of the way so you and the helper are on the same picture. If there is one thing I will never do again it's to hand over my dog and let them work them WITHOUT talking to the helper first. 

Greg Doud asked specific questions about the dog first, when he worked Indra, before he started working her. He wanted to know exactly where she was and that's what I'm looking for. A Helper that works the dog, not his ego.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think there again though...it can go either way. The helper we will be going to from now on prefers to just take a dog out and work it if it's the first time or first couple times with that dog. The owner can bring it out on whatever equipment they think is right (and if it's not right it will become immediately clear, without having to talk about it first). I've seen him work probably two dozen dogs belonging to owners very new at SchH who wanted to explain this or that but really didn't have a clue about their dog. They all mean well but sometimes you just have to show rather than say. These were all dogs that were recently started, or needed to go back several steps and get a better foundation. For dogs that have been worked for a while, we bring the dog out, say what we want to work on or what problem we'd like to address, and then just work it out from there. Most of the talk happens as we work or afterward.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

[email protected]:
The helper you are writing of is very trusted and can read a dog within a minute of working it. Not many helpers are of his calibur.

I think all helpers should ask where the dog is in its training. If they didn't, then I don't know if I'd want them working my dog. I'd also want to see the dog doing obedience before working it, to be sure the handler had control. And I as a handler would like to see the helper work dogs, before working mine.
I talk to my regular helper about what we'll be doing every time before bringing my dog out, then hopefully we talk about the session afterward.

A session from one week to the next is never the same, so discussion is important.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> For dogs that have been worked for a while, we bring the dog out, say what we want to work on or what problem we'd like to address, and then just work it out from there.


there isn't much to explain with Nala. I don't need to cite a book in order for a helper to work her. 

All I want is a helper that understands not to rush her, not to put too much pressure on her just because she can take it and I want her to be built up slowly. 

Is that too much to ask for, just because I've never titled a dog before?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think a half decent helper should know that goes without saying. If a helper needs to be told not to run over a young dog, probably not a helper worth working with?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> [email protected]:
> The helper you are writing of is very trusted and can read a dog within a minute of working it. Not many helpers are of his calibur.
> 
> I think all helpers should ask where the dog is in its training. If they didn't, then I don't know if I'd want them working my dog. *I'd also want to see the dog doing obedience before working it, to be sure the handler had control.* And I as a handler would like to see the helper work dogs, before working mine.
> ...


:thumbup: Absolutely agree with the discussion and talking to the helper. 

As for Obedience. Yes. That is why I talked to our trainer that we'll wait until after the SAR Academy. Right now I don't have much chances to join a club anyways because there is too much SAR going on. Once I completed the Academy and certified Indra it's a totally different situation. So for now we'll do obedience and tracking. That should give us a good amount obedience and control before we do anything serious in protection which is much needed, especially with her.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, I think it is more about the handler than the dog...some handlers don't have control or knowledge on posting, holding a line and that may be dangerous. So watching how they are in obedience is as much about the handling skill as it is about the dog's control.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I think a half decent helper should know that goes without saying. If a helper needs to be told not to run over a young dog, probably not a helper worth working with?


The thing is that she doesn't really look like a green dog. A fairly new helper would probably do too much and she's inviting you to do more. That is why everybody, that knows her, stresses to make a point in NOT to rush things, NOT to put too much pressure on her. They've all been there and done it and know that a dog like her is very easily "overworked" because it comes so natural to them. 






She's never even been on a bitepillow. That's all her.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I have been blessed with good if not great helperwork. Even if a dog comes out of the womb barking and biting, at the very least the helper should take the age into consideration and how often the dog has been worked. 

Many dogs don't need any "bite development" on rags and pillows and such because they genetically bite anything full. Pan bit the oven mit for one session b/c he was still teething and we wanted to see if the prey drive was starting to come out (he was a very low key, mellow puppy and didn't show prey drive until about 7 months even though now that is his primary drive) but really all of his bite work has been a full intermediate or trial sleeve. I guess I would be surprised if a helper assumed my dog was fully mature in the *head* and ready for a lot of pressure and real work as a young dog just because he could bite a sleeve. There's striking/biting, but then there's fighting. The helper's job is to ascertain what kinds of work is age-appropriate and how to encourage the fight that is in the dog.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I guess I have been blessed with good if not great helperwork. Even if a dog comes out of the womb barking and biting, at the very least the helper should take the age into consideration and how often the dog has been worked.
> 
> Many dogs don't need any "bite development" on rags and pillows and such because they genetically bite anything full. Pan bit the oven mit for one session b/c he was still teething and we wanted to see if the prey drive was starting to come out (he was a very low key, mellow puppy and didn't show prey drive until about 7 months even though now that is his primary drive) but really all of his bite work has been a full intermediate or trial sleeve. I guess I would be surprised if a helper assumed my dog was fully mature in the *head* and ready for a lot of pressure and real work as a young dog just because he could bite a sleeve. There's striking/biting, but then there's fighting. The helper's job is to ascertain what kinds of work is age-appropriate and how to encourage the fight that is in the dog.


I've seen the good the bad and the ugly. The ugly was in Walldorf, where a very knowledgable kennel is located. I think some people on here have a dog from him or have it in their pedigree. 

Anyhow, he'd take out the Bullwhip and started "desensitizing", 3 month old puppies with the Bullwhip.... hitting their forefronts. I knew I should have walked away because he did the same thing with Indra but at that point I was too scared to open my mouth because "I don't have the experience on the field." and that's something that won't happen again.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It still ultimately goes back to the helper, a training helper reads dogs AS they work them. Many young helpers today have preconceived notions in their mind about what THEY are going to do when working a dog(especially young or new dog). I find that the dog through reading the dog tells me what I will do in working the dog.
As for handler effectiveness, often with handlers that are not as skilled or athlectic, or even those handlers that work their dogs in protection enjoying the bitework more then the audience(paying no attention to what their dog is doing), I will have them post their dogs and work their dogs off of the post. The dog often demonstrates much better strikes, grips, and barking, etc. I then ask them how is it, that the dog did so well....often the light goes on for them as to how important the person handling the leash is to the outcomes in a session. Just some of my thoughts.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Anyhow, he'd take out the Bullwhip and started "desensitizing", 3 month old puppies with the Bullwhip.... hitting their forefronts. I knew I should have walked away because he did the same thing with Indra but at that point I was too scared to open my mouth because "I don't have the experience on the field." and that's something that won't happen again.


And the above really has nothing to do with "building a dog up"  it's just bad behavior. That's why you should be aware of who you are working with before you have them work your dog.

I dunno, just working protection kind of hap hazardly to me is going to be worse for a dog than worrying about an experienced handler and exactly what they are going to do with your dog.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> And the above really has nothing to do with "building a dog up"  it's just bad behavior. That's why you should be aware of who you are working with before you have them work your dog.
> 
> I dunno, just working protection kind of hap hazardly to me is going to be worse for a dog than worrying about an experienced handler and exactly what they are going to do with your dog.


He came highly recommended by a lot of people in the Area and he's quite the successful handler himself but a successful handler does not make, necessarily, a good helper.


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> I think that's the key, though. I doubt many experienced helpers would appreciate being micromanaged by someone who has very little actual experience on the field working dogs in protection.


:thumbup:


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Mrs. K - 

I honestly don't know anything about you, your dogs or their abilities.. however, if your dog Nala being "rushed" by a Schutzhund helper is of great concern to you (because you say she's young), I'm a little confused.. A reputable, experienced helper would primarily be working on establishing a solid, proper grip foundation, building confidence in the dog and teaching the dog the elements of the Schutzhund protection phase. 

Based on the fact that you say she's never seen a bite pillow, and the video shows her doing long sends, jumping for grips and going into vehicles for grips, what else could someone do to "rush" her?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BritneyP said:


> Mrs. K -
> 
> I honestly don't know anything about you, your dogs or their abilities.. however, if your dog Nala being "rushed" by a Schutzhund helper is of great concern to you (because you say she's young), I'm a little confused.. A reputable, experienced helper would primarily be working on establishing a solid, proper grip foundation, building confidence in the dog and teaching the dog the elements of the Schutzhund protection phase.
> 
> Based on the fact that you say she's never seen a bite pillow, and the video shows her doing long sends, jumping for grips and going into vehicles for grips, what else could someone do to "rush" her?


There was absolutely no pressure on the dog. In fact, the long run wasn't all that long and the helper ran away from her rather than towards her with a stick in his hand. 

It was play for the dog. Putting real pressure on the dog is an entirely different story.


----------



## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> It still ultimately goes back to the helper, a training helper reads dogs AS they work them. Many young helpers today have preconceived notions in their mind about what THEY are going to do when working a dog(especially young or new dog). I find that the dog through reading the dog tells me what I will do in working the dog.
> As for handler effectiveness, often with handlers that are not as skilled or athlectic, or even those handlers that work their dogs in protection enjoying the bitework more then the audience(paying no attention to what their dog is doing), I will have them post their dogs and work their dogs off of the post. The dog often demonstrates much better strikes, grips, and barking, etc. I then ask them how is it, that the dog did so well....often the light goes on for them as to how important the person handling the leash is to the outcomes in a session. Just some of my thoughts.


Yes this. More than a few times I've nearly been bitten because of stupid handler mistakes or plain just not paying attention.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> There was absolutely no pressure on the dog. In fact, the long run wasn't all that long and the helper ran away from her rather than towards her with a stick in his hand.
> 
> It was play for the dog. Putting real pressure on the dog is an entirely different story.



Again, I would think the way the work is viewed needs to be understood by the handler and the helper. Not just about that dog in that session, but the overall view of the protection work and how it is approached by the helper and the handler. See if my dog was worked as play, I'd be really pissed off. I am not driving 5 hours to be out in the freezing cold for 8 hours and have someone playing catch the giant tug toy with my dogs. To me "real pressure" doesn't have to mean too much pressure, it means the right pressure for that dog at that stage, but I always want the dog to fight and to have to work for bites. I don't view the helper as my dog's mortal enemy or his play-mate....more like a button-pusher that should be viewed with some suspicion.


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

I don't know many helpers that will be attempting full field length courage tests with your dog the first day you bring her out, and if you happen to run into one who does, I'd probably exit stage left.

What is your definition of "real pressure"?

If someone does THIS to your dog before it's ready, that's a bit of an issue...


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Liesje said:


> See if my dog was worked as play, I'd be really pissed off. I am not driving 5 hours to be out in the freezing cold for 8 hours and have someone playing catch the giant tug toy with my dogs. To me "real pressure" doesn't have to mean too much pressure, it means the right pressure for that dog at that stage, but I always want the dog to fight and to have to work for bites. I don't view the helper as my dog's mortal enemy or his play-mate....more like a button-pusher that should be viewed with some suspicion.



EXCELLENT post, Lies.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I agree with that. I wouldn't want to drive that much for technically nothing. 

Maybe I am just overthinking... :help:


----------

