# Out of motion.



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I would like some feedback.

When teaching a dog out of motion sitz, platz, stehs what do you do?

So far, we have been:

Heeling - give command - take a second in position to "help" the dog (so stand next to him for a split second while giving the command) - and then continue on walking as the dog is in their position (either sitz, platz, steh).

All of this happens in a matter of a few seconds, we are not "waiting" there or giving the command over and over either.

I will sometimes if he doesn't platz right away (like he is doing the slow platz) I will use a hand signal (point to the ground) as I give the command and then continue walking.

It has seemed to work for Stark but I would like to know if I am creating any bad habits?

Today, we did a nice platz in motion with no "handler help" at all. It went very well and I was very happy with it. Nice and straight, he dropped when the command was given, stayed in his down until I returned and heeled him away.

We have a new trainer and he seemed very happy with it and didn't have much of a suggestion in the way I trained it (with other people) so he told me that I should continue to do what I was doing in this regard.

But, I would like some opinions on this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am giving a collar pop randomly when the command is given and walking forward, not hesitating or looking back to see if the dog has done the command. 
It is working, though now and then the sitz is replaced by a platz. I just go back to him, and start again, I don't correct when I return to him, pick him back up, fuss a bit and do it over. 
If he is doing what I want, I return and say good sit, stroke him down his back and walk away several paces before returning. 
We worked on proofing this last night at training, we were inside due to rain, so it was more distracting for Karlo than outside(scents from other dogs in the building. Then we created distractions, my trainer threw balls or toys as I did the commands. Made noises, clapped her hands or called her imaginary dog.
I made Karlo sitz right next to a toy or platz, then threw a toy behind him or she rolled a toy in front of him while we did the motions. He did really well.
I want a fast sitz/platz and don't want it to be felt as a correction, but a reminder of what I want, the pop reminds him and I randomize the pop or verbal. 

We did this off leash doing the obedience heeling pattern with our whole club Saturday, and almost every dog somehow decided to platz instead of sitz....even the ones that had experience in trialing. Must have been the harsh winds, the dogs wanted to get lower to get out of it!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I just walked in from training in the rain and wind (horrible!!!) and we were working on the pattern off lead as well.

If he breaks I do go back, put him back into the position (whatever that may be) and then we try again.

If he does good (like today!) then I return to my dog, stroke, verbal reward (good sits/boy/way to go goober, etc..) and we continue heeling a few steps and then break for reward (tug).

For his sit in motion, he stands usually, so I need to make my command VERY clear (verbally SITS) and not jumble my words. If I give a nice loud SITS! then 9/10 he does comply. Yesterday I worked on it with him and I kinda just said, "sits" and continued walking (no handler help) and he stood there.. lol. So, I returned to him, gave the command again and then walked off... returned to him and took a step or two and rewarded.

Stark reverts to a stand and not a platz, where I think most dogs (at least the ones I work with) seem to revert to a platz.. 

Stark has a nice quick/clean platz/sits/stand so I am very happy with this aspect of his training to be honest, there are always things to clean up and such but right now, at the point we are at, it's good.

We were going to trial next month but are holding off on the BH until spring. I may... a big maybe...... do his AD next month though. All depends on the weather. My breeder is bringing her 2 dogs through the BH and AD that weekend and I am going anyways...... so might do it. We will see where we are next week.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you popped his collar when doing the commands? Even if he does it right, it is a reminder. We are doing the BH in 3 weeks. I don't even do the Steh command right now...I know he'd probably do that too, when I say sitz.
We're also doing some work in the retrieves right now, I have to carry on with it, whether it interferes with his BH or not, we have to continue. I have found that it has helped his OB, so am not too worried. What will be will be. :help:


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Yeah, when I pop him, he looses focus, he takes that as a correction I think and he is not sure what he is being corrected for? Not sure.

Our old trainer (club trainer, we are now working with someone privately - smaller group - 3 ppl) told me to do it this way.. may resort back to popping him.. who knows. It seems to work but I don't want to have him rely on signals - at this point he is not, and I rarely give them (like sometimes none at all during our session).

I am working on the retrieve as well. Stark is a little mouthy with it, so we are working on the hold. He is awesome at being sent out and coming back, just need to work on the mouthyness of the dumbbell as he sometimes drops it due to his chewing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have the opposite w/ retrieves....bringing back is slow, hold is calm. I want him to bring it faster. Working on ball reward to bring it in.
Won't go e-collar to increase speed but may be an option after we do the BH.
Karlo views the collar pops on the OB as drive building, it doesn't feel like a correction to him(and he is handler sensitive!) These dogs sure are thought provoking!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Funny, Stark is takes the e-collar "hits" as such, but will shut down with the collar pops... interesting. Maybe because he doesn't think the e-collar hits are from me? When I correct him (via collar/verbal) he sees it as "mom correcting him"? Who knows.

I started using the e-collar about 2 weeks ago, only used it twice when he started ignoring me and while off lead heeling, taking off and sniffing around me totally blocking me out. Zapped him (very low) and it's like the got serious about working again. I think I let him off easy for too long - working means working.

He shuts down with the collar pop/correction even further which is why we moved to the e-collar. Seems to work even though I don't like using it.

We worked with the ball/tug today and he seemed to be VERY into it which was good!

I need to get video up of him soon because from the last video I posted over a year ago of him working/heeling to now.... wow.. different dog.. and handler.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The platz is usually the first thing I teach using -R, so once the dog knows it and knows it well (within two sessions I could drag Pan across the ground by his dead-ring Fursaver and still have him fighting to hold the platz), the dogs have both generalized very easily, didn't have to really train it differently for the out of motion other than maybe one pop the first time. Depending on the dog, I like training the platz with -R because to me a platz/down is the most important and most useful command, not in SchH but in "life" and I want it to always be fast, solid, and non-negotiable to the dog.

Pan has always done a clean, fast sit so for his SOM I just gave him a check with the command a few times and he's been good to go every since. Nikon has always struggled with slow, "hydraulic" sits. What worked best for him was I think something Chris suggested, when I give the command I immediately pivot to my left into the dog, kind of forcing him down and back with my body so he ends up in front position. Then I just fade that. I also added a hard check on the prong with the command, but put the prong on backwards so the line clipped under the chin. I found that by giving the check up and forward, his oppositional reflex helped him sit down faster. If Stark can handle the correction (not shut down, but understand what you want), I'd make it more clear to him, he's got to do it right and quick every time.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Great suggestion Lies, I will try that! Thanks!

When you say pivot into the dog, what do you mean?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Like as I'm giving the command, instead of stopping or continuing to move forward without the dog, I pivot left on my left foot, so if the dog doesn't sit at that moment, he's basically gonna get a knee in his chest. Then I fade to pivoting left but keep moving around the dog (like in Rally), and then once the lightbulb goes on and the sit is always fast and the dog stays, I just keep walking straight.

When I taught Pan, I would give the command and then if I knew he sat, toss a ball behind my back while I was still walking, and just increase the distance I walked, because in the past I've had dogs that get up while your back is turned because you think you can go farther, or dogs that will change positions as the handler turns around. So for the first few sessions, I might keep a reward in my hand as we do it and toss it behind me to the dog (with some sort of OK/release command so the dog understands they can break position to get the reward).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

But how does that stop the dog from sitting when you say platz or platzing when you sit? Even if they do the motion fast, they still may mess up the commands? Do you correct the sit when they should platz with a collar pop, verbal or leash swat on the rear to let the dog know what you want?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If I suspected the dog was going to sit on a platz command, I'd give a hard check with the command, then quickly if not immediately release and reward the dog. The dog wouldn't really be able to platz on a sit command if I'm turning into the dog, unless for some reason the dog is in avoidance and just groveling, but that's a different issue than just not performing the commands correctly. Nikon has been platzing on a SOM command recently but it's not something I can really fix in that exercise. We just needed to loosen up a bit (he's been getting a lot of pressure, working longer with more expected). I took a few steps back this week, working with something as silly as the sit, before putting it back into that exercise.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lies, do you have a video of this?

I am still thinking that if I do what you explained... Stark would either:

a.) continue heeling with me
b.) stand instead of sit (this is his "fall back")

Just having a hard time visualizing this... sorry for being a little slow tonight... LMAO.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Ima eat my sandwich and then see if Pan can model it


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I do it a bit differently with no compulsion. I first have the dog doing "puppy push-up" in front of me with NO handler help. This way I know they understand the words and aren't using a physical cue. Then I have them do a stationary sit-platz in focus. Next we will do it in fuss and I immediately pivot in front of the dog to stop motion. We progress 1 step to 2 steps and so on. Once I get to 2 step and the dog is correct, I reward with a ball thrown behind them. If the reward is produced behind them, they have little reason to keep following me. When the reward is well timed and quick, the dogs are speedy in the exercise in my experience. Then once the dogs are doing the full exercise, the rewards are then given randomly. I only use and occasional leash pop for a mistake after they are completely fluent in the exercise. I've never been good at compulsion training, and I've seen too many unhappy looking dogs when it isn't done just right. So I take a lot of time and play it safe. There are many roads to the same place. You just have to decide what is best for your dog and you. 

Here is my results with Cues:
sit / down out of motion training with recall - YouTube


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm working on this too. Cindy - nice video.

We can do the down, sit is slow and can't do stand witout a hand signal first for wait, then she does it. 

I'm going to try the pivot in front to stop the dog from moving forward.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Caledon said:


> I'm working on this too. Cindy - nice video.
> 
> We can do the down, sit is slow and can't do stand witout a hand signal first for wait, then she does it.
> 
> I'm going to try the pivot in front to stop the dog from moving forward.


I got speed in the sit at the stationary phase of training. I start with food to teach the words. To get speed, I get the dog in ball drive first. Do the stationary exercise, and reward immediately with a ball thrown behind the dog. You'd be shocked how fast that butt can hit the ground! The key is ball drive really (and a fast twitch dog). I would make sure your dog can do the stationary exercises in front of you without fail, before moving to motion excercises. If you have to use a hand, use it AFTER the verbal command or the dog will use the hand signal as the cue to sit. I don't use hand signals, but my body to block. It works best for me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree, Cindy. Get the speed, technique, and the dog executing the commands reliably before putting it with the out of motion exercises.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Have you popped his collar when doing the commands? Even if he does it right, it is a reminder. We are doing the BH in 3 weeks. I don't even do the Steh command right now...I know he'd probably do that too, when I say sitz.
> We're also doing some work in the retrieves right now, I have to carry on with it, whether it interferes with his BH or not, we have to continue. I have found that it has helped his OB, so am not too worried. What will be will be. :help:


I only call sits on the left leg, platz and steh on the right. Teach the stay command while grooming or washing the dog. Put a finger in the hip joint to prevent forward motion or going down


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Best thing was I worked on the stand/stack for show training. I had one of the 3 working dogs at Menlo Park in the mid 90's (now back to mostly working). He received lots of ring training and stack training. Randy insisted that you train for all aspects, sch titles, show rating and koer....

Baer had a rock solid stand.

We are working on that now with Norbo and Mia. Focus on stand. Comes in handy when you do the Gabor. He did free stack with Enzo at his koer - koer judge walked around dog and Gabor was 10 ft away. Judge loved it. Other people started doing it as well after that.


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