# A hard SchH dog to train



## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

What would you call this dog, soft, hard or just hard to train?

The level of correction needed for him is higher than your average working dog. I need a sharpened prong and two hands to even get his attention back. It's almost like there is no amount of correction that will count for him and change that behavior. Yet, once he gets a correction, he does not recover from it. His ears go back and his attitude is totally changed.

How do you work a dog who you physically can't correct hard enough to make an impact and who doesn't recover from a correction, yet doesn't care enough about food or a toy either?

He is a pet first, and we do this sport for fun, so getting another dog isn't an option at this point.

Anyone had any similar experiences to working with these challenges in SchH ?


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

In my opinion,(for what it's worth) maybe you should find a new activity to do with him. Schutzhund is not for every dog! Maybe you could just do obedience, or tracking? My dog Bixler was just not cut out for it, but we still have fun doing tracking and obedience. 

Corrections (ESPECIALLY the type you speak of) can do a lot of harm if they aren't done at the exact perfect timing. If he is pretty much ignoring you until you have to really hurt him, he is probably confused and doesnt know what you want him to do. Maybe start back from square one, and try to build some food or toy drive, just leave the corrections out, If you are just doing SchH for fun, shouldn't he be having fun too?


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

I am back at square one right now. Making it all fun and positive, and making sure that he is always set up for success on the field so he learns a new positive association. 

I don't want to quit the sport, i'm hooked, but I also don't want him to have a poor attitude. I'm equally torn. 
There has to be others who had similar dogs who had other tools in their bag for training.

You said just do obedience and tracking. It's the obedience that is the problem! Or my lack of training tools. It's obvious if he can do tracking and protection, he obviously is having problems with obedience because "I" am the problem.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

are you using REALLY good food???


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I sort of agree with Kristi here. This dog may be better suited for a different activity. Especially as you say you do this for fun. Sharpened pinch collar corrections on a dog who doesn't care for food or toys doesn't sound much fun for the handler or the dog.

Hard to me is more a factor of resilience than pain tolerance. I would say this dog has a high pain tolerance but is overall probably a soft dog since once his threshold for a negative stimulus is reached, he shuts down.

I would question though what is going on in the training that requires so many corrections. If tons and tons of corrections are needed, I would say there is either a lack of understanding of what is expected on the dog's part, miss communication between dog and handler, the dog isn't sufficiently motivated or some other sort of conflict is going on. Because truth is, a truly "stubborn" dog is rare. Dogs don't choose disobedience just to be disobedient, especially not if it means experiencing painful consequences. There is something else going on. For a dog to require so many corrections, and such harsh corrections (a sharpened pinch collar?!?!) tells me that there is something missing in the training and the problem probably doesn't lie with the dog.

If you really think it's just a hard to train dog and extreme levels of correction are needed, I would go to an ecollar over an sharpened pinch collar. Once you know how to use one properly and your dog has been properly conditioned to the ecollar, at least you will have a way to issue a hard correction when needed without potentially causing injury to the dog.


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## Jason_Sidener (Sep 22, 2005)

> Quote:and extreme levels of correction are needed, I would go to an ecollar over an sharpened pinch collar. Once you know how to use one properly and your dog has been properly conditioned to the ecollar, at least you will have a way to issue a hard correction when needed without potentially causing injury to the dog


totally agree.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Agreed with Kristi and Chris. 



> Quote: I would say this dog has a high pain tolerance but is overall probably a soft dog since once his threshold for a negative stimulus is reached, he shuts down.


Bingo. I know you're hooked on it, but if your dog's not cut out for it it's just going to cause him more stress. If he gets way too stressed and is pushed past his breaking point, that could be dangerous if it happens during bitework. How about doing something fun and confidence-boosting like agility? If he does bitework, he can likely transfer that to a tug toy for a reward. Or you can do the obedience and tracking phases of schutzhund and keep it all positive.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You find another sport. SchH was never meant for all dogs. The dogs should be fun to train and should be enjoying the work themselves. How old is this dog?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

OP, can you give specific examples of under what situations you are needing these severe corrections? Typically if this sort of unwilling behavior and severe corrections are needed it's in the control work in protection. And even then it's generally a handler/training problem, not a dog problem 

But I'm having a really hard time imagining what could be going so wrong in the obedience phase???


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM If he does bitework, he can likely transfer that to a tug toy for a reward.


This is what I don't understand. It seems the dog does the protection work. If it has enough drive to do protection work, it seems like it would be a handler issue to not be able to bring out the drive in the dog for ob. 

I would backtie the dog and build drive towards yourself and the toy. After many, many sessions when you've got his drive up, while backtied you freeze and tell him to sit and immediately reward when his butt hits the ground. Start working obedience into the mix in this way. JMO based on what information is available which means this could be way off and is why I'm really hesitant to even post this.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

If you are dead set on training this dog in SchH , I will offer the following . 
What you are describing is unfortunately, very typical of what I have seen in show line GSDS. I think I read on another thread that you have a show line dog, correct? 
I have trained quite a few show line dogs here at my kennel . I can't tell you how much I did not like training those dogs and for a while there, I tried to talk people out of paying me to train their dogs once they told me what bloodline it came from. That's how unpleasant I found that task to be. I hate to sound that way but it that is just the reality of the situation. 

While the training with most of these dogs is for pet people, what I teach is not alot different than what is required in SchH. Since your dog does not like food or toys, that leaves you with compulsion. However, as was already suggested, an e-collar is probably the better route to take but my reasons for suggesting it are maybe a little different that what others are thinking. Of course the dog comes first here, so anything you can do to be more humane is the way to go but there are a few other things to consider as well. The main thing is you and how YOU might be reacting to all of those harsh corrections. I have found that the road between violence and anger is a two way street. That means this. When people are angry they can get violent and when they do something violent,( like jerking their dog around on a sharp collar), most people just can't help getting a little angry or excited, especially when the dog is not responding. Their voice goes up, they start to yell or they simply correct the dog in a way that no longer looks like a correction to the dog, it looks and feels more like an attack. Only you, (and the people you train with), know what is going on there, so, I am just throwing things out for you to consider. 
The dog is much less likely to take an e-collar correction "personal" because you will not be jerking the leash like you are now. 
I have now trained numerous show line dogs using the e-collar with what I would say is great success. That means I now can be be paid to train them.








The collar reached them enough to get a response without all the physical activity that was shutting them down at the same time it got them to react. Almost all of the dogs I train with the e-collar prance in the heeling, sit and down quickly, recall quickly etc and are pretty darned happy. Another plus to not doing the jerk their head off method is that it is MUCH easier to praise them when you are not frustrated and maybe a tad angry after doing that. Praise is the key when you use compulsion and you have to be very good at that part of the training. It has to be genuine and should exceed or at the very least, equal the level of correction. That's how you get a happy dog when you don't use toys and treats and you can have a happy dog without doing pure motivation, (contrary to popular belief). The trick is to make things very clear and to make sure you are calm and happy with the dog even if he gets a correction. The handler is the light at the end of the correction so to speak and it is easier to be that light when you use the e-collar with dogs like you are describing.
The e-collar seems to do a much better job of reaching these dogs than the pinch does. It helps keep things alot calmer and clearer for both the dogs and the handler. I rarely if ever use it on other breeds or other lines of GSDs but with the show lines, most of the time it is the most humane and best method of training.

I would not try to do this until you have at least watched someone who clearly knows how to use an e-collar first. Since I have never considered myself to be an e-collar trainer, I made a point to research how to do it right before I tried it .


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> The e-collar seems to do a much better job of reaching these dogs than the pinch does. It helps keep things alot calmer and clearer for both the dogs and the handler.


This is a VERY good point!


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

Thanks for the constructive replies. 
He is 2 1/2 years old. I am new to the sport, so I have my own handicaps but we've been training regularly since he was 10 months old. We worked on Protection and Tracking for awhile before ever starting obedience. (this is just how the club told me to do it because if I remember correctly, they wanted to get his protection going before we started in obedience.) He is a show line which I think is the main reason. I'm the only show line at the club and I'm the only one who is having these problems.

High pain tolerance and soft sounds like it. By the way, the prong doesn't even phase him. It's not like he's yelping and I'm cranking away.
Yes, I do back tie him and play with a big toy and we play with small tugs. 

I don't have any problems in protection. His heeling is going well. If I chose another sport, or hobby, won't that have obedience in it as well? 
One example, we're heeling and he looks away. (He knows focus and he knows how to heel) He gets a correction but he doesn't seem to effect him. It seems to me that I can't give him a correction strong enough that makes a point.

I was told I was nagging him to death with corrections that weren't strong enough. So, I sharpened the prong, but he still doesn't seem to care with that either. Can his pain threshold be that strong? 

Some of you say he might not be cut out for this because of this, but I need obedience nomatter what we do. If he's not doing this on the field, obviously, he's not doing it at home either. 

I do have a e-collar. I bought the digital one so I could be consistant with it. Anyone have any resource where I can learn how to use it humanely and fairly? I've read Lou Castle's website, but I'm not sure how to transfer some of that to schutzhund.


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

Thanks Anne. I must have been typing my first response when you were. Yes, you've stated exactly what the issues are and you explain them exactly. We do use food, toys and praise BUT they just aren't enough to improve his attitude and make it worth it to him. He doesn't explode for a toy or food or praise. It takes a long time for him to recover from any correction but a strong correction is needed to actually make an impact. He can't just chose to not obey, and if I don't give him a strong enough correction, that is exactly what he does. . .on the field, at home chasing cats, or pulling on a leash when walking in the neighborhood. This is just basic obedience that he needs, to be a good pet and on the field. 

Ok, so, I got an e-collar with the digital reader. (when we tried it, to find his working level, I believe it was in the 40's. Isn't that high?) 
Now how do I use it? I know my club uses them, but I want to be able to learn myself so I know what is the right and wrong way, and to be able to use it at home. 

Thanks for all your replies.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:I was told I was nagging him to death with corrections that weren't strong enough. So, I sharpened the prong, but he still doesn't seem to care with that either. Can his pain threshold be that strong?


Ok, now you are starting to worry me a little. The answer is not always about making things harder or in this case sharper. If people are telling you that you are nagging the dog, it could be as simple as you not knowing how to give an effective correction. Before you try to use an e-collar or a pinch for that matter, you need someone to take the time to show you how to use those things correctly. Even if that means going to another trainer other than ones at your club.


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

Are you serious? 
Yes, when I first started training, I was told I didn't give a hard enough correction. One fair correction is better than a bunch of small corrections that will just harden the dog.

I also didn't know how to stand during protection, or lay my own track.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)




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## BCGSD (Nov 19, 2005)

SeriousConfusion you've ruined the dog. The title of the thread s/d not be "A hard SchH dog to train", but "Training a dog in SchH is hard."
No, it is not the dog's fault. Its great that you like the sport and you acknowledge that you had a lot to learn. The dog is too soft for a novice who is starting from absolutely zero. Not a good match.
He was basically a training dog for you, and yes a number of people kinda ruin their first SchH dog unless they (the trainer) have a natural gift for dog training, or are with a really, really good support group. Both instances are rare.
So I hope you take into account people's recommendation to find some other activity for the poor dog. You've learned on his account, now do right by him (sharpened prongs on a soft dog?).


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

If you are talking to me, yes I am serious. It is not so much about how hard a correction is, it is about how "effective" it is. Hard does not always equal effective. I have watched more people than I can count put all their strength into a correction and achieve nothing but an upset dog because they are not actually giving a correction properly. 
There is a little skill involved here, it is not just about brute strength or causing pain. I can't see you or your dog but the way you are explaining things concerns me. It almost seems like you think if you can just do this or that to the dog hard enough, that will fix it. It won't. Maybe it is just the limitation of communicating in writing but I do want to make a few things a bit clearer here.

I did not recommend an e-collar because I thought it was a harder correction, I recommended it because it might be something that will make it clearer to the dog IF you use it right. There is much more to using the e-collar than how high to turn it up. Some people think "working level" is when the dog has a strong reaction. That is not the case so, again, you need to look into all the ways to use a collar correctly or you will get the same reaction and result that you are now. YOU have a great deal to do with this, and you need to make sure that your skills are up to par before you do more of the same with a different device. I sure did not try to use an e-collar until I was very skilled at working a dog without one. That's my point. It is more than just the device, the handler has everything to do with how clear things become for the dog. 
You need to consider what you might be doing wrong along with considering everything the dog is or is not. Yes, you have a certain type of dog but if anything, that kind of dog requires more skill than dogs who have everything you need to work with. Therefore, I will say it again, find a GOOD trainer to help you. Someone who understands how to use a pinch and someone who understands e-collars but most importantly, someone who understands dogs. I sure am not going to tell you how to use an e-collar on a bulletin board. That's why I said you need to learn how to use it before you try it on your dog. In my opinion, that means spending time with someone who knows how to use it CORRECTLY. There are lots of people who don't know how but use it anyway. 
Also, you need someone who will take the time to work with you and tell you where you need to improve. There is not much left to try after you go there, so, you better know what you are doing. My intent was to get you to consider what is the most humane way to train your dog and to consider what you are doing that shuts your dog down after a correction. It remains the same no matter what training device you use. You have to have the skills to use those things correctly and IMO, you always need to look at yourself first to see if you are doing what is right for the dog so he can figure out just what it is you want from him. Lots of dogs do not obey at home when on walks etc and that is an indication of all the things their owners do not know more than it is about the dog "choosing" to not obey you. Most dogs want to do what their owners ask, ( and that goes for the kind of dog you have), but most people just can't seem to communicate clearly to the dog what they want. That goes for people in SchH clubs as well as people who just have a pet. I talked about the kind of dog you have, not to blame the dog but to make a statement about what you might be dealing with. You do have to understand who your dog is but you also have to understand your own limitations and skill set because that is the most important part.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am going to take a deep breath and post here in this section-I say that because I don't do Schutzhund, but I do read the posts because there is a lot of knowledge and things that can be transferred to even some really simple little things. I read this post last night and have been thinking of it ever since. 

Also since this is somewhat to do with obedience, and a dog that is not doing what is wanted-I feel pretty comfortable with those things.







I have a variety of dogs, have fostered some others, and initially with each of them, we don't speak the same language. None of my dogs were selectively bred (bred well anyway!) so I know how difficult it can be trying to match up something that you like with what they are best able to do. 

What I am not sure of is if my ideas will make sense-but this is what I am thinking...

I would take a break from the sport-no timeline. Then I would work on my relationship with my dog. Look at how we communicate-not while trying to accomplish anything. NOT EVEN trying to create a good relationship-that's not a goal, it's a journey. Goals are nice, but they sometimes make us do things that are not helpful to ourselves and others. I'd check out some books like Clothier and I am sure others can point to more books that look at developing that bond with the dog-and they with you. 

I'd have fun with him. I'd encourage him to look at me-right in the eye-and once we had that relationship, I would start reshaping the behaviors I wanted from him, and call me crazy, but I think there are people who do it in Schutzhund, maybe even use a clicker to mark those behaviors. 

And maybe you'll say well, I have a relationship with the dog, but I think you can always strengthen these things. Are you fun? Are you interesting? Can you make adjustments? 

I have stood there holding a leash, my brain in a knot, feeling like I was the only one who wasn't getting it, ready to walk out of a training center because I couldn't be or do any of those things and I understand that frustration. But so did my dog(s)! It's like going to work, having your boss not talk to you, and then getting a write up when you haven't a clue what you are supposed to do and why you did it wrong. 

So I am just hoping that you all can enjoy yourselves. Dogs don't live nearly long enough, and neither do we! Have some fun, and maybe look to see if there is anyone in the club who is having success with a happy dog, using positive methods, or go to an AKC type club for obedience basics (which BTW, when I did that-they broke it down into tiny pieces and my BYB Bella of the no drive-was a SUPERSTAR!) where they use motivational methods and work with them. It helps to get away from where you're at. 

This may be too touchy feely or whatever, but I have some Chow mixes and I've learned that you CAN overpower a dog to get them to do something but you get a lot further with them by working with and thinking like them.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: SeriousConfusionI need a sharpened prong and two hands to even get his attention back.












And you are doing this WHY?? Is this really what you call fun? For yourself or the dog?? 



> Quote:I don't want to quit the sport, i'm hooked,


Sorry but SO WHAT! YOU might be hooked but the dog sure isn't.



> Quote:Some of you say he might not be cut out for this because of this, but I need obedience nomatter what we do. If he's not doing this on the field, obviously, he's not doing it at home either.


Obedience at home - like walking nicely on a loose leash - is very different from the level of obedience expected during competition.

Sorry to sound harsh but I think you need to take a step back and ask yourself why you are doing this. Is it because YOU want to or because the DOG wants to.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Wow you have been given some great information.

I don't do SchH either, but what you are describing is what I cal a Physically hard dog that is probably handler sensitive. My Cheyenne is that way and after lots of errors on my part I learned that verbal corrections where harder on her than physical. So my verbal corrections are very light, Aut, Nine. She is independent and will not eye focus when heeling, she cues off my knee.

She loves to track, but even with that some days she will just blow me and the track off. My tracking buddy and I have a little joke, is Cheyenne going to track today, LOL only if she feels like it. When this dog is on she is on, when she is off, you would swear I have never worked with her on tracking. BUT she is a fun dog to live with and play with. She isn't a sport or competition dog.

Take the pressure off you and your dog and just have fun. Work on tracking and work on your relationship then work on OB. Mix the OB stuff into games, if I keep everything really fun and up beat with Chey she is a happier dog cause I am happy and much more willing to please.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

You need to make it fun for your dog, or you will never get the picture you are trying to paint! Trust me, I made some mistakes very similiar to what you are doing with my dog Bixler. 
I dont agree that you have ruined your dog. The first trainer I had Bixler too told me I was nagging my dog, so here I am, first dog, never done any training, pulling as hard as I can on my poor dog, and he still was ignoring me. I didnt know better at first, but didnt take me long to realize this was not the way to train my dog. He was avoiding me because he had no idea what the heck I wanted. We stopped training there, took a break, started again with the clicker, lots of food, lots of playing. 

Now after probably a year of all positive stuff, he is happy in obedience, I can give him a correction, and I barely have to use any effort to do it, and he doesnt shut down, it actually makes him more in drive. He knows what to do so he doesnt get confused. Before any corrections are given you should have a very solid foundation and the dog should know entirely what to do. Just because your dog has heeled with good attention a hand full of times dosent mean he knows what to do entirely, he needs to do this 100 times! My dog is also a showline dog, he has a ton of food drive, almost like a lab, but very little toy drive. 

And along with Jean said... I cant explain how much stronger are relationship was after we stopped with the confusing collar corrections.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sounds like the dog doesn't know what you want or what is expected of him. Heeling with eye contact is not exactly a natural behavior for a dog. With such harsh corrections, he is probably avoiding your eye contact even more. He is trying to diffuse the conflict but just getting corrected harder and shutting down. I think he just needs to be trained what it is you want.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

If you can't get a more suitable dog for Schutzhund right now, why don't you try Agility with him? I do Agility and trust me, it is just as adicting and fun as Schutzhund. I'm sure your dog would LOVE it. My Ultro did not enjoy Schutzhund, BUT he LOVES Agility. Like everyone has said, not all dogs are cut out for a particular sport, just find the right one.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: SeriousConfusionAre you serious?
> Yes, when I first started training, I was told I didn't give a hard enough correction. One fair correction is better than a bunch of small corrections that will just harden the dog.
> 
> I also didn't know how to stand during protection, or lay my own track.


When I started training I was told the same thing. I had to practice on a fence post before I was allowed to practice on a person and then and only then was I given back my dog. I'm really sorry that your training group did not do this for you, someone should of stepped up to the plate.

Did your TD tell you to go to a sharpened prong?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I do not do SCH (yet) but I have worked with a decent amount of dogs both pet and in working scenarios. 

Just curious about what YOUR attitude is during the obedience? Are you walking all "Alpha" and just reving up for the correction that you "know" you will need to issue? Are you focused on the routine? Are you relaxed and looking forward to a fun POSITIVE training with your dog? Is your body giving off vibes that "it is my way or YANK"? In my meager opinion a dog that is looking away could very well be trying to send YOU calming signals. And the more upset/tense/impatient that you get and the more corrections you issue the more calming signals like NOT looking at you the dog gives off. This would of course lead to the never ending vicious cycle of more corrections issued by you and more looking away from you for the dog because it is trying to calm you down. 

Maybe I am way off in left field but it seems plausable from my point of view through a webboard. 

Have you considered possibly taking a few non-schutzund classes to stengthen your bond and so you and your dog can learn to work as a team in a new environment? I think a coupld agility classes would help.


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## Mark B (Feb 3, 2009)

It could mean a lot of things. Hard to say what is really going on if we're not there to see it. 
But it sounds like you don't have a very good relationship with your dog. Go find a trainer and pay them to help you. They can show you how to create that bond you need. That helps with the dog wanting to work with you. And have the trainer show you techniques with building your dogs drive up for the toy or food. Let the trainer show you how to become a trainer. I would do that stuff before going to the electric. Even if you choose electric you should still go pay a trainer to teach you how to use it. 

Mark
http://www.ultimatekanine.com


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Agility has obedience, but the thing with agility is that the obedience is NOT precise and it's all FUN FUN FUN. Your dog flies over jumps, rockets through tunnels, runs up and down things, all the while you're screaming and cheering him on and he can bark and move as fast (or as slow) as he want. At the end, he gets to tug or play fetch or do whatever! Agility is a HUGE confidence boost and it really turns around attitudes. A dog that thinks, "Man, I can't do anything right, I hate this, I always get corrected," with one sport, goes to agility and thinks, "WOW this is FUN! And if I screw up, it's no big deal! And when I do things right, it's like Mom throws a party for me! Wooo HOO!" Agility strengthens the bond and really forces a handler to improve their problem solving skills. We saw HUGE improvements with Renji once we started agility training. Obedience is so-so for him, but agility is YAHOOOOO! It's just plain fun and yes, it is very challenging. But you just can't really get upset in agility. 

I don't think I've seen it posted, but what sorts of treats have you tried? When I teach a schutzhund-style heel to Renji, if I have nothing, I don't get much eye contact. Kibble, I get some. Hot dogs, more, cheese, a lot, but if I use something REALLY good like fried bacon, WOW do I get good focus! If I use a tug toy, I get even better focus and if I get a tug that has an animal pelt in it, the focus is fantastic. And the only corrections I give is a tug that's equivalent to a tap on the shoulder "hey you, remember me" attention-getter. 

http://www.monsterdog.net/gallery5.htm
Have you checked out the tugs and toys there? Those are some REALLY stimulating tugs.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Anne, GREAT posts and great information. Lets take it easy on the OP, she is asking for help not bragging about abusing her dog. She is concerned, and wants what's best which is why she's reaching out.

OP - I tried to PM you, but you're full.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I don't see where anyone says she's bragging, I see people posting ideas for her to try whether that is schutzhund, another venue, or none of the above.


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

Hard to say without seeing it all in person. But sounds like poorly timed correction on dog who does not understand the task presented to him. I never correct my dog when they are learning a new skill, or when we are applying a skill to a new situation. I also find it useless to try and correct a dog in over the top drive....you need to correct them before they get to that point, or back up a few steps in training and teach them what you want while preventing their head from spinning...in a lower drive. Once they understand the obedience exercise and perform it over and over again, then I add speed and drive to it.


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

Thanks for all the positive replies. 

I did take time off because it was not fun for him or for me and it became apparent to me that what I was doing was not working.

So, I am back now, and only doing positive things with him on the field, and doing more positive things at home on a daily basis. So more training, more positive. 

For tracking, we use verbal corrections. At home, it just depends on what it is. Chasing cats, a verbal correction isn't enough. Focus work, depending on what the distraction is, verbal isn't enough sometimes. So, we are back at square one and doing more groundwork. 

It was my idea to sharpen his prong. A correction on a fur saver, flat or prong wasn't doing anything. Maybe how I give the corrections really are the problem????

I did some heeling with him after work, but I can't be animated enough to keep his attention and then I don't want to correct him for it, so I'd say it didn't go too well. After that I bought some beef treats and did a few things at home inside since it was dark by then. I will try those during heeling tonight. Otherwise, it's hot dogs and cheese. The thing is, they don't seem to work every time.
If he knows he gets a treat when he keeps focus, why would he still look away? ? ? Maybe this is something that I am not getting?

My attitude during training is probably similar to his. I'm not angry going out to the field. Nobody wants to be angry. I'm probably just as concerned as he is because I don't want to give him a correction anymore than he wants to receive one. 
So what do you do when he does something that he's not supposed to and doesn't respond to a treat, a toy, a verbal or physical correction? 
So, lets take away all the physical corrections. . . ok, now I'm not the bad evil person who used a sharpened prong. . . what do you do when he doesn't do what he's supposed to and he knows what is being asked of him? 
Maybe you ask, that he doesn't really know what is being asked? Maybe. I'll accept that. But what about when you know for sure he knows, and he still doesn't do it? What do you do then?
What if it isnt about obedience but something he MUST learn/do that would save his life? What do you do then? Because basic obedience isn't just about Schutzhund.

(We did do a basic agility course when he was a pup. It did help him build his confidance because he didn't want to get on top of half of the equipment. We do other things for fun as well, hiking, sheep herding, going to the lake, camping. We're very active and so he's always with us) 
I would have to say the one this we do have is a great bond (from what I believe a great bond is). He listens to me over DH, he's definitely my dog since i've been training or doing classes with him since he was a pup.

***removed by admin: Personal attack** I think you mean the showline breed since these characteristic are genetic. Before the prong was sharpened, these are his genetic defaults. He's soft, he's sharp and he's weak nerved. At the same time, Malinois and showlines are active in this sport and make titles all the time. I just don't have any of those people around to learn from, so I asked a GSD forum what their educated experience was working 'these' dogs in 'this' sport.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Because he doesn't know he's not supposed to look away. Just because he looks at you once, doesn't mean he knows he's supposed to stay that way. Teaching focus takes TIME, alot of it. I normally will get their attention in the beginning, give a reward, then start making it longer and longer. When he looks away, just do a verbal "ack" he refocuses, good boy, treat. You have to teach him not to look away just as much as you have to get him to look at you to begin with. Each session try to extend the focus a few more seconds. Eventually it'll get there.

And for the end of your post personal attacks are NOT allowed on the board and calling people names is considered an attack.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Otherwise, it's hot dogs and cheese. The thing is, they don't seem to work every time.


How about some variety? If all I had to look forward to was the same ol' cheese and hot dog, I'd get pretty tired of it as well. Cooked liver, fried beef heart, raspberries, pieces of cheeseburger w/o condiments, pieces of cooked fish, smoked sausage, beef jerky, that leftover pizza from last night, a different kind of cheese, a different type of hot dog, safe nuts, microwaved bacon, pieces of roast beef, chunks of deli meat, a hunk of cooked steak, pieces of steamed chicken, etc. Vary up the treats so he never knows what to expect and save the AMAZING treats for heeling and focus. Practice at home, too. Whenever you're cooking something, give him a little piece. Call him to you and do a short heel exercise where he focuses on you for a few paces, then give him the sample. 



> Quote:What if it isnt about obedience but something he MUST learn/do that would save his life? What do you do then? Because basic obedience isn't just about Schutzhund.


You build a number of positive associations over time such that it becomes SO GREAT to listen, that when you shout LEAVE IT, your dog knows there is a fair chance he's about to be rewarded with something way better than whatever it was he was sniffing. Or when you recall him, he knows he could have a piece of pastrami on rye. He knows he will get disciplined if he ignores, but why ignore when he knows he could get lavished with treats and fun?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> And for the end of your post personal attacks are NOT allowed on the board and calling people names is considered an attack.


Agree. Just because you don't care for the opinions some posters have regarding the training techniques you described in this topic you started is no excuse for name calling.


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## Mark B (Feb 3, 2009)

How about you video an Obedience training session and link it here so we can see how and what's going on.

Mark
http://www.ultimatekanine.com


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

I wanted to share a website another board member gave me that I think seems like a great idea and something I will be doing tonight.

Thank you for sharing it.

http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Just a quick question, you said you took some time off, How much time?

It may take more time for your dog to adjust than you gave him. The momories are still there, so you have to push those memories farther back in his mind with new more positive memories. 

Val


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## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

No offense, but I don't feel sharpened prong collars ever should be discussed on a public forum. That is *exactly* what PETA types look for when trying to ban our sport and breed and frankly, in today’s world (where we know better) they should be unnecessary. If you can’t get it done with a normal prong collar than it is the wrong dog for you or the wrong handler for the dog, or possible a dog not cut out for the *sport* at all. The bottom line is that if you have to resort to a sharpened prong (with no results) and have to post on a forum looking for other options, it is almost certain that you are not going to achieve success with your dog and can only jeopardize everyone else’s right to the sport and/or the use of training tools such as prong collars and electric. Sometimes people need to recognize that no matter how much you want to achieve something, sometimes it just isn’t meant to be. We've (in the US) become brainwashed into believing it is a god-given right to do whatever we want, regardless at to whether we should - personal desire trumps common sense and respect for everone else's rights.

Some people simply are not cut out to handle dogs in protection sports. Others have dogs that aren’t cut out for it, or at least not with their current handler. If everything happened in a vacuum then outside of abuse to the dog (which is what bad training is - especially when combined with strong complusion) that would be one thing – but the fact is that these days it affects ALL OF US. I get very bothered by people who don't consider the impact of their behavior on the rest of the world.

-Calvin


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## laukaouda (Jun 26, 2002)

**Post removed by Admin. That was a bit over the top and into the realm of attacking the OP.***


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Laukaouda, I have seen much worse at a schutzhund club. 
I agree with the above comment about not berating the OP.Op is concerned, wants to change things, and I think was given a lot of great advice.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Yes, OP is exploring other options. Many of us have hit the pits in training before we've woken up, said "whiskey tango foxtrot," changed our methods and never looked back. We were having a tough time with Renji until I found the proper training class. I still have my moments (stubborn dog + stubborn owner = that story about the two goats butting heads on a log) but we get better every day.








And after a bad situation I replay what happened and strive to change things next time.









OP, you know that some dogs just will not heel with that unnatural bendy-necked stare? If your dog will heel properly and nicely without the focus, I do believe that's perfectly acceptable and was the original intent. You may lose points, but so long as your dog heels, it won't be a points-winner but I don't think you'll fail the OB phase because of that. Some dogs just prefer to cue off a body part rather than look up at the handler constantly.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

You said he's your first in Schutzhund... is he also your first in Obedience??I sounds like your timing for corrections may be late, thus when you correct the dog's not connecting it correctly to his behavior. 

If you can... borrow a well trained obedience dog ... maybe even a nice quiet golden type dog... and VERY mellow. Work with an instructor 1 on 1 to learn the correct steps in obedience and guide work with the lead. How and when to correct... 

One thing I've done as an obedience instructor with students is have them play a game of Simon says... Away from class, away from distractions... just you and the dog... 100% positive... if he goofs it's an "Ah ha... I caughtcha" kind of reaction not "NO!! BAD DOG" Do heeling, quick turns, stops, speed changes... as quickly as you can for like maybe 5 minutes... then release from training and play with your tug. This makes the dog focus on you, and makes it fun for both of you. Can change both attitudes in just a few sessions over a couple weeks time.

I know that experienced trainers can get great results with pinch collars, E-collars and such, and can/have used them myself on a couple of difficult dogs... but the inexperienced handler/trainer is more likely to do serious mental damage to the dog's willingness to perform with bad timing, and improper corrections. Better to step back from the correction route for a bit and make it like a bit of a game of tag... so it's 2 steps... get YOUR issues worked out without damaging the dog... and get HIS issues worked out away from a lot of distractions in a really fun positive manner... (and ALWAYS end on a WIN for him)


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## laukaouda (Jun 26, 2002)

Sorry if my post was over the top. I'm this side of psycho crazy about Phantom and Schutzhund.


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

Dunno anything about Schutzhund, but the single best training advice I ever got wasn't advice at all -- it was personal experience. 

We were doing agility, and Annie wasn't taking the obstacles I was directing her to. My trainer said, "I'll be you, and you be the dog". I followed her around, and she gave me the commands/signals just as I had given them to Annie. 

Talk about confusing! No wonder my girl was all over the place. I was sloppy, slow, and unclear. And because I could see exactly how I was misdirecting, I was able to correct it (eventually). I think it takes a truly excellent and observant trainer to do this for you, but it was well worth it for me.


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

Back to the issue of the dog not working for toys or food... did you do work to build drive for toys?

Freyja doesn't work for most food, will work ok for a tug, but will KILL for her ball. But one thing I was noticing that was causing problems in my obedience (and is the reason I haven't done the BH yet, though I'm planning to in March) is that I was doing all the work with the ball.. .swinging it around, trying to get her excited about it.

I was told that I needed to make HER activate ME as the toy dispenser. Meaning, I want her barking for the toy, I want her desperate for it before I even start to work. Then, it's not a matter of me bribing her to work with the toy, but rather she working in order to get the toy for me.

I don't know why that didn't click with me earlier but it finally did, and now I have a different dog, I'm less frazzled, and corrections are at a minimum.

Will she bark on command? That's how I started... taught her to bark on command. Then I started phasing the command and just looking at her, toy in hand.

Then I started doing that when tossing the ball around the house... she'd put it on my lap and I wouldn't flinch. Eventually she got frustrated and barked at me to get me moving, I praised and threw the toy. Now I do the same thing outside... she knows I have a toy hidden in my pocket and will start trying to sniff in my pockets, then she'll bark at me, at which point I pull it out, tease her, then call her to fuss and hide the toy again.

Another thing I was doing wrong was that I was very predictable in doling out rewards... meaning I wasn't random enough. I'd do X number of steps, then reward, for example. So what's the incentive to look at me the whole time if I won't reward until X steps? Now, I reward at 1 step, at heel, then 20 steps, then 10, then 3... keep it random so she never knows when it will happen. That's helped a LOT too.

I can't imagine training a dog who's not interested in toys OR food though... must be frustrating. Personally, I wouldn't use compulsion that way just to get work out of the dog... I'd just keep finding something that will make the dog tick.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Parsifal, I LOVE exercises like that! Once you can experience for yourself the kinds of signals the dog gets, then you can really understand what's going on and understand what needs to change.







I think every training class should incorporate a session like this.









Our poor dogs put up with so much!


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

They sure do. My poor dog is handler-impaired







But I'm getting better.


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

Handler impaired! I love it!

But then we have to go back to root causes. What did this dog do in a previous life in order to pick you as her handler? What karma (dogma?) is she working through?

Sorry, but I just had a very annoying go-around with a woman who asked me what I was doing in my previous life to manifest Lyme disease. Next time I'll have to ask her what she's doing in her present one to manifest a poke in the nose....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9If you can't get a more suitable dog for Schutzhund right now, why don't you try Agility with him? I do Agility and trust me, it is just as adicting and fun as Schutzhund. I'm sure your dog would LOVE it. My Ultro did not enjoy Schutzhund, BUT he LOVES Agility. Like everyone has said, not all dogs are cut out for a particular sport, just find the right one.


I start agility tomorrow, Onyx isn't Sch material, and I saw it from the beginning. I still take her to the club for socialization (mine, too til I get a pup for Sch. Onyx would excel in tracking and is good in ob. but the nerves/protection are where she is weak... I hope she likes agility-or she will end up a couch potato like Kacie!


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Parsifal
> 
> Sorry, but I just had a very annoying go-around with a woman who asked me what I was doing in my previous life to manifest Lyme disease.


Say what?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My softy does agility too!







(and she's pure working lines, lol)


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## laukaouda (Jun 26, 2002)

A couple of times I asked my breeder if Phantom was too pressured or not right for the protection aspect of Schutzhund. I didn't want to force Phantom into doing something that stressed her (too much as I know stress is something that needs to be worked through at increasing levels.) I think I almost got clobbered. This is a clear case of breeder applying a proper correction to a handler.

Although I love Schutzhund I had orginally wanted to get into agility and be a rock star like Jenna and Bretta. I'm pretty high energy and wanted to be able to run around the agility ring with my dog. Unfortunately in Schutzhund in tracking and protection I HAVE to be calm and clear. NOT my best virtues.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Have you considered taking another break from SCH and maybe go though another agility class or two? It seems to me that agility might be a good way to improve a damaged relationship, build some more confidence and get you and your dog working as a team in a new and fresh venue.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Good suggestion on the break and Agility.

Where are you located at?


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

I've gotten a good referral and am looking into some classes.
Thanks for all your help and advice.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I just wanted to share my experiences, since I went through something similar with my first Schh dog.

She was diagnosed with bad hips as a pup, so the Schh was more for fun and as a learning experience for me - I knew I'd make lots of mistakes!

I joined a Schutzhund club and the trainer was pretty heavy on the compulsion and light on reward. Djenga (my dog) had great prey drive, but because I was too heavy-handed with her, her obedience was NOT pretty. 
We got to the point where she was close to being ready for a BH, but then had to move and I didn't train for about a year. I moved back to NJ, joined a club here, and the new trainer was pretty upset by how she'd been ruined









It took months to fix the damage that had been done, and we never got her to the point where she was as good as she would have been if she'd been trained right from the start. I phased out corrections almost completely, and just worked her on a fursaver with a loose leash. We started nearly from scratch. She got TONS of praise and reinforcement with the ball. He also had me try cracking a whip during obedience to get her excited - she's a little nutty and that made her wild. I have a few scars from that experience but it really added power to her obedience that we couldn't get otherwise. Now I'm not telling you to crack a whip with your dog - and the whip was not cracked AT her, just on the ground in front of her because it really switched her on. It worked to get her exited but probably wouldn't have worked for most dogs.

Anyway - it was a really good learning experience. I learned not to be heavy-handed, and to trust my instincts which told me I was being too hard on Djenga. I learned to ALWAYS praise like crazy and/or reward after a correction and now my current Schh dog Kessy is brought up in drive by corrections because she knows she'll be rewarded. 

I have to agree with the advice you've been given. At least my "ruined" dog had a lot of drive so she could overcome much of the damage that had been done. If you can't find a way to motivate your dog, then I think you're doing the right thing by finding something else to do with your boy, at least for now!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Nice post, phgsd.


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