# Mommy not titled...?



## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

What are the consequences of buying a pup with an untitled mom? A breeder I am looking at sells pups at a lower cost when they come from untitled females (usually intended to be pets...not for show or future breeding). However, the breeder has told me that when she breeds to untitled females when they are young, she is always intending to title them after the litter. She also said that the untitled females come from healthy bloodlines and she would know what kinds of temperaments they are likely to have. What are your thoughts on this?


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

Some people buy show dogs just as brood dgos with no intention to show, just for the bloodline. Some start showing and breed the female, then continue after the first litter. I think they might not want to bother finishing a dog that won't be a good producer. Imagine spending $$$ to finish a dog only to breed her and she's a dud. I have a friend who finished two females and neither one could conceive pups. So no foundation female for her and many $$$ down the drain.

Look at some famous pedigree's, not all of the dogs there are titled.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

"Hi, I'm Dr. Smith."
"Oh, where did you go to med school? You look kind of young to be a doctor."
"I haven't actually started college yet. But that's ok, both my parents are doctors."


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

The purpose of titling a dog is to find out for sure about its nerves, drives, temperament, and intelligence. I'm sure it evaluates other things but those are all I can come up with off the top of my head. She can't know for how her bitches are going to go through the titling process if she hasn't taken them through it yet. You can't go just by looking at the parents, after all we've all got a black sheep brother/sister/cousin. How do you know your puppies mom isn't the "black sheep" until she's been tried?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

What lines? Have you seen the dogs and visited the kennel? Have you seen dogs she's titled? Where are other pups she placed? Have you asked for and contacted recommendations? 

Sounds a little shaky to me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I believe this is the kennel she's referring to: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post650002


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

My dog is from untitled parents, at least I think so. But her parents were purchased as a breeding pair from a very reputable kennel, and they are the products of generations of titled dogs. They have all the health certs and I met them both. Both dam and sire had the temperment I was looking for (as evidenced by my eight year old playing with them and doing lots of stuff wrong but they remained unflappable) Her parents are not listed in the database but her grandparents are.
I am getting nothing but positive feedback from the Schutzhund club regarding my dog's potential. She's doing great, and is everything I had hoped for in a family dog, and then some.
So the owner of my dog's parents didn't train them for Schutzhund. But she could have, and it would only have raised the price of my pup, not made her a better dog.
Would I even consider breeding my girl without a title? NO WAY, because that's the only way I'll know she'd be worthy to be bred (along with hips and elbows, and a breed survey and then even if everything were perfect I'd have to think long and hard about it)
Bottom line is- I got lucky.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

The other thing is that the comment about the dogs being young and we will title them later....
You cannot test for Schutzhund 1 until 18 months of age. That is before you are even able to OFA cert the hips. Are they breeding earlier than this? Why not title first? Are they breeding before they cert the hips?


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

The Germans and some other countries certify joints at 12 months old. They also have rules and recommendations about many other things, including the age of the dogs being bred. If you look on the USA website, search for "litter registration" regulations to get an idea. I believe there are some minor variations from the German system, but this should give you a good idea.

The original poster asked "What are the consequences of buying a pup with an untitled mom? " One "consequence" is that the pup cannot ever be VA rated - however, most won't be anyway .

I'd say look at the whole picture of what you are getting into - with any purchase. Temperament of the sire and dam (meet both whenever possible), health, depth of hip ratings in the pedigree, reputation of the breeder, your "rapport" with the breeder, etc.

Just my humble opinion.

Christine


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

If her dam does get titled later can her offspring get VA rated, or does the title have to be in place at the time of whelping?


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

If the dam gets titled, show ratings and an SV accepted breed survey then her offspring would be able to get a VA rating. As previously mentioned this top show title is only given at a Sieger Show and most dogs will never be of the quality to receive it. 

I just glanced at their site, but it seems that they do title the dogs from their brreding program. If the dam is being trained and the want to see if she can get pregnant and the quality of pups she produces before they title her it is ok if she is young - if they are using the smae "excuse" when the dog is older I would be suspicious. 

My working line girl's mom wasn't titled when she was born, but she got her BH shortly after weaning the pups, then got her titles, show rating, AD and breed survey. Sometimes people do give a dog a little time to grow up before titling them, but they are working the dogs prior to breeding them.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

I agree with GS Mom, after seeing the web-site.
If this is a test breeding, to see if and how the dog produces, before titling.
I would say its OK as long as they are in training & hips pass & good pedigree.
It is a common practice in German Show-lines breeders.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

Well, it looks like some of you are saying this practice is OK and some are saying it looks suspcious. Below I copied and pasted exactly what the breeder e-mailed me:

** removed by Admin. Private emails should not be posted. Please sumarize only***

Does that clear it up at all? I get the feeling that she is talking about doing what GS Mom and Deejays_Owner are talking about.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

I just got another e-mail from this breeder (Baerental). I had asked her what the consequences are of buying a pup from an untitled female. She also sells some pups at a lower cost who do not come with a hip/elbow guarantee. So, I asked her to explain that to me as far as what it implies about the pup's hips/elbows. Here is her response:

"** removed by Admin. Private emails should not be posted***"

What do you think? I haven't yet asked her at what age she breeds her younger females.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: HBHI get the feeling that she is talking about doing what GS Mom and Deejays_Owner are talking about.


I think so too. There's a difference between not titling a parent YET, and not intending to title a parent EVER.


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## Jason_Sidener (Sep 22, 2005)

> Quote: The protection phase shows us that she will protect her owner when needed


I would recommend passing on any breeder who says the above sentence.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

sorry, i can't tell....is she breeding the female b/f getting hips/elbows certified? is that why there's not a guarantee, or is she not guaranteeing for another reason? 

i can understand you may not have finished titling a dog and breeding it, especially if you've already been working w/the dog towards titles, but to breed w/out hips/elbow certification (if i understand that correctly) would be a big issue to me. yes, the xrays cost $, and you might want to know if the dog can produce, but - i don't know, it doesn't seem entirely ethical. i'm looking at buying a mal in the next year or so, and the breeder i'm talking to would never ever breed without doing health checks first - she lost a GSD she loved dearly at a young age to epilipsy. checking out hips/elbows before breeding seems basic to me, but i'm sure the breeders on this board who actually know about it will be able to weigh in. 

unless, like i said, i'm misunderstanding the breeder's emails.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> If all goes well with her first litter, I would normally be intending to get her titled and do all the necessary breeding tests after that first litter. Selling a puppy for less without the guarantee means nothing in terms of any likely hood of developing hip dysplasia.


This is why I would go somewhere else. Not being titled yet and not having the proper breeding tests done first are two different things, IMHO.
I believe this statement to be inaccurate because she's saying that not having the hips certified first is OK. You don't know if the dam has HD herself unless you test her. If she does, than it absolutely will increase the chances that her offspring will as well. 
Red flag for me.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Yeah I would wonder why someone would breed a bitch before certfiying the hips. 
Go elsewhere. Too many good ones not to pass on even the slightest suspicions.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

and trust me....having unknowingly adopted a dog w/HD....any money you save on the puppy b/c it doesn't have a guarantee will be lost and more, 10X over, if the puppy does end up w/dysplasia.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Emails can easily cause communication breakdown. You need to point blank ask if she is lumping health clearances in with performance titles when she says she's waiting to see how the bitch produces. Skimping on health clearances is a major no no.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GS MomIf the dam gets titled, show ratings and an SV accepted breed survey then her offspring would be able to get a VA rating. As previously mentioned this top show title is only given at a Sieger Show and most dogs will never be of the quality to receive it.


I understand now what you meant. I did not realize that this was the top level of the rating- and the requirements would be greater to attain this rating. I thought it was an entirely different scale I had not heard of that my dog would not be eligable for.
So you taught me something, thanks


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Jason_Sidener
> 
> 
> > Quote: The protection phase shows us that she will protect her owner when needed
> ...


Why?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Not to speak for Jason, but if she's refering to the protection phase of SchH or another sport w/bitework - bitework on the field isn't necessarily indicative of a dog that will protect in a real life situation. They're very different scenarios. That's what I find odd about that comment, anyway.

(in my understanding, and i'm not an expert on this, so take this with a grain of salt, it isn't to say a SchH or FR dog WOULDN'T protect IRL, but it would be a silly and potentially dangerous thing to assume. my understanding - SchH is very stylized, and the person getting bit is a helper (vs. a decoy). Even FR, which has a decoy and more varied bitework - the dogs aren't stupid, they know they're in a very specific situation. PPD dogs are trained in a wider variety of bites, situations, and would muzzle fight as well as hidden sleeves. Even then, you never know unless you're faced with that situation.)


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## Jason_Sidener (Sep 22, 2005)

Jarn summed it up pretty good. Any breeder that says that is either clueless or saying what they think will help make a sale. 

I was recently at a Bernhard Flinks seminar and he mentioned a dog in his club (I believe) that made 97 points in protection. But if you tried to work this dog any where but the field like in the parking lot the dog would bolt.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

all i know from watching FR training in prep for getting the mal is the dogs go in and bite, hard. as soon as bitework is over 'oh decoy! rub my belly!' it really is a sport.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

The way I read what she has written is they offer pups for "less" money without a hip/elbow guarantee, meaning if the dog does develop HD or ED there is no replacement. No one can predict or 100% guarantee that a pup won't develop HD/ED.

I believe her explaination was a simplified overview of what the titling et all is used for. I also believe from looking at her webiste that she doesn't lump health clearances in with titling etc. Also for a dog to show in the classes over 1 year they have to have an a stamp or I believe they except an ofa prelim. If the dogs don't have passing x-rays you wouldn't be eligible for breed surveys either.

I also don't think it is right to post what was written to you by the breeder either. She looks like she has some nicely bred dogs and the older dogs are titled beyond the the basics.

BTW - The purpose of working and testing the dogs according to the SV is way over most peoples heads. Many people who are working and breeding dogs don't have a clue about what they are doing either.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GS MomThe way I read what she has written is they offer pups for "less" money without a hip/elbow guarantee, meaning if the dog does develop HD or ED there is no replacement. No one can predict or 100% guarantee that a pup won't develop HD/ED.
> 
> I believe her explaination was a simplified overview of what the titling et all is used for. I also believe from looking at her webiste that she doesn't lump health clearances in with titling etc. Also for a dog to show in the classes over 1 year they have to have an a stamp or I believe they except an ofa prelim. If the dogs don't have passing x-rays you wouldn't be eligible for breed surveys either.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that I should not have posted what she wrote me? If so, I am sorry. I didn't realize that might be considered inappropriate. I hope it wasn't.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GS MomBTW - The purpose of working and testing the dogs according to the SV is way over most peoples heads. Many people who are working and breeding dogs don't have a clue about what they are doing either.


We all have to start somewhere. I guess we just have to learn from people who know more than we do. I know there will always be someone who knows more than I do and I hope I'm smart enough to figure out who they are


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is a common practice in this country. Not saying I agree with it, but I would not necessarily consider it a red flag. You have to look at the breeder's history, reputation, the quality of their dogs not just whether they breed a few untitled females here and there. 

I would expect to see all dogs being bred to carry either OFA hips/elbows or the equivalent from another country ('a' stamp from Germany, HDA from others). Check out the contract thoroughly. If you get to see puppies they should be social and demanding of attention. Kennels, whelping rooms, etc should be clean. Puppies should be clean, healthy looking. 

Anyhow I would call and talk to the breeder. Get a more personal feel for her program. Go meet her and her dogs, then make a decision. Ask questions, expect her to ask questions. This is how you will know if she is the right breeder for you. 

Let us know how it goes.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Lucina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: GS MomBTW - The purpose of working and testing the dogs according to the SV is way over most peoples heads. Many people who are working and breeding dogs don't have a clue about what they are doing either.
> ...


Most puppy buyers have no idea what Schutzhund training is and what it is suppose to "show" you about the dog. Trying to explain this to a lay person is often difficult, especially if they are just looking for a nice pet. I made the comment because a couple people posted about the breeder either being an idiot or just trying to make a buck, which is not true. this is another reason I mentioned in my view, posting the breeders emails was inappropriate, especially since it was just part of the conversation. If people want to bash a breeder based on what is posted on the website then fine, but a private email is another story.

BTW there are plenty of "breeders" on this board who breed both untitled males and females, so before we hang this breeder out to dry, some may want to check with their breeding programs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think the breeder under discussion is merely trying to simplify and offer a quickie explanation of the phases of schutzhund. 

Yes, there are valid reasons why a breeder will breed an untitled dog. The key is to look at the whole program - are the majority of their females titled? Are they active in the sport - either show or trial world? If so, then getting a litter from an untitled female is not the same as a breeder who uses untitled dogs routinely and repetitively. My Schh3 female Kyra is from a program which does not title in schutzhund. Her dam was not titled, nor her dam. But this program did and does produce SAR and Police K9s. They use either Police K9s or Sch titled males for studs, and were active Police K9 officers. Kyra was trialed for 5? 6? Schh3s, and has produced Schutzhund titled dogs and a Police K9 from the only litter she had. So while generally, it is not good to see a breeder using untitled females, there are justifiable exceptions.

Lee


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Quote:BTW there are plenty of "breeders" on this board who breed both untitled males and females, so before we hang this breeder out to dry, some may want to check with their breeding programs.


*** Personal attacks are against board rules. *******


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## Jason_Sidener (Sep 22, 2005)

****Post removed by admin***


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## Jason_Sidener (Sep 22, 2005)

** removed by Admin. Far better to let us handle an attack than to respond. Thank you.****


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GS Mom
> BTW there are plenty of "breeders" on this board who breed both untitled males and females, so before we hang this breeder out to dry, some may want to check with their breeding programs.


I agree. It seems that most people who post on here looking for input regarding a breeder they are looking into get at least one or two negative responses. I think there will always be something that someone can find about a breeder that they don't like. The important thing is for the person looking for a breeder to get as much info as they can about the breeder's programs and when possible go visit the kennel. My husband and I plan on visiting this kennel and at least one other one in this area this summer. I hope that will give us a better feel for which is right for us.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Jason_SidenerJarn summed it up pretty good. Any breeder that says that is either clueless or saying what they think will help make a sale.


I see this as a personal attack on the breeder based on a private email that wasn't sent to this list and probably posted without her permission.


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## Jason_Sidener (Sep 22, 2005)

I said "ANY BREEDER" if you take that as a personal attack then complain and have it removed


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ENOUGH!! Stay on topic. 

Thank you,

Admin

******


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

This topic comes up I think every few months on one board or another. I can imagine as a perspective buyer; going through all the website, titles, etc can be confusing, plus the endless opinions! Titles vs untitled-from a breeders perspective, really **** if you do, **** if you don't on many aspects







You may buy titled dogs, then your not good because you don't title them yourself... or you title your own, but you don't do the breed survey/conformation ratings, or you title your own, but don't compete at a National level-Or, you buy a titled dog and compete at a National level, or you raise a pup to HOT, SchH3, International competitor, or you don't title them now-but have been in dogs 30 yrs, or have a combo of titled/untitled dogs-used to be active in some sport or another, no longer are-the list goes on! Does that make you better or worse than someone else or their breeding program?

Honestly, if you are looking for a dog, remember the basics. Every breeder has their own breeding program, goals, etc. What do you want in a puppy/dog? Once you have an idea, make a list of breeders you are interested in, talk to them, not once, but a few times. Visit them if you can, spend time around their dogs. See the dogs they produced, are you interested in a certain venue? Well, see if they have produced dogs titled in those venues, competed in those areas in the past or present. Get references, talk to the owners, talk to the trainers, Training directors, anyone you can. If the person shows, go out and watch them, see how they handle their dogs, see how they train...If they don't, watch them handle their dogs, what training do they do? how do they evaluate their dogs? See how you feel about the breeder, do you feel they are informative, helper, good client satisfaction? Are the dogs in good health? Good temperament? Do they have health certifications? Do they ask you as many questions as you ask them?
Then make an informed decision based on your research. Hopefully that will help you find a good match for you and your family.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> GS Mom said:
> ...


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Wow, the numerous posts really got off the right field line, talking about SC titled dogs. show dogs and whatever.

I am not sure what you mean by untitled, but is that AKC, German Certificates, Hip Tests or more expansive testing. 

You also did not mention how much you are willing to spend for a German Shepherd Pup, and it does make a difference. 

If you want a companion dog, I would want to know if the parents are tested for Hip Dysplacia, and related bone problems.

If the breeder's definition of untitled means her dogs have not been tested for Hip and other problems, I would find a different breeder.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

And if both dogs are not OFA'd, that would definitely bee a red flag. Prelims/xrays read by a local vet do not equate to OFA or saying my dogs do not produce HD; because most puppies were not xrayed. There is one in the area like that, also doing VERY close line breeding (closer than 2)


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