# Ebay is selling puppies?!?!?



## DharmasMom

I admit I don't use Ebay often, if hardly ever, so this was news to me. And it needs to stop, ASAP!! Way to support the puppy mills Ebay! Please take the time to sign the petition. Thanks!



Ebay Classifieds: Stop Selling Live Animals | Change.org


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## Rerun

ebay classifieds are like craigslist....ebay bought out kijiji.com which was a free online classifieds site. It's not a bidding auction like the regular ebay. Just classifieds. You e-mail or call the people.


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## AgileGSD

Rerun said:


> ebay classifieds are like craigslist....ebay bought out kijiji.com which was a free online classifieds site. It's not a bidding auction like the regular ebay. Just classifieds. You e-mail or call the people.


 Yep. It's no different from any other classified website.


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## wildo

Did you guys happen to read the comments on that page? Someone linked to this video showing the issues with unregulated sales of puppies via local classifieds such as CL or Ebay. 

Caution- quite disturbing and graphic!
CAPS vs. Bauck on Vimeo


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## DharmasMom

Oh, it's like CL. Well, that certainly makes it okay then. We all know what a great site CL is for getting dogs and puppies from. 

I would still like to see it go away. I would like to see CL stop advertising animals as well but I haven't found a petition to sign for that. At least people are trying to do something to stop Ebay.


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## robinhuerta

What is the difference in posting in their classifieds...as to any other forum's classifieds...or even the magazines or newspapers?? Any advertisement for that matter?!


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## DharmasMom

wildo said:


> Did you guys happen to read the comments on that page? Someone linked to this video showing the issues with unregulated sales of puppies via local classifieds such as CL or Ebay.
> 
> Caution- quite disturbing and graphic!
> CAPS vs. Bauck on Vimeo




Wow. That was horrible. I can't believe she is still operating and they didn't take her dogs!! Evil woman!!


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## Tammy GSD

I guess I'm an evil supporter because I got my Sheva off the eBay classifieds. You are supposed to shop for pets only in your area, based on your zipcode. I found mine about 12 miles from my house. She is an amazing dog, already working in her Schutzhund training, smart as a whip and gorgeous. I wouldn't trade her for the world, even if I got her from that ad.


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## Jax's Mom

DharmasMom said:


> I would still like to see it go away. I would like to see CL stop advertising animals as well but I haven't found a petition to sign for that. At least people are trying to do something to stop Ebay.


I wrote a local newspaper in Toronto and let them know I disagree with their advertising of pets for sale under the "property for sale" heading. In response, they made a new "Pets" section. It's a start. 

I'd like to see "reputable breeders" infiltrate mainstream advertising. I know they don't _need_ to advertise because they have good homes for their puppies lined up before they're even a glint in the milkman's eye, but how is the average Joe supposed to find reputable breeders if they're so illusive? There are still a ton of people out there that think purebred puppies are from pet stores and mixed breeds are from the pound.


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## irongrl

DharmasMom said:


> I admit I don't use Ebay often, if hardly ever, so this was news to me. And it needs to stop, ASAP!! Way to support the puppy mills Ebay! Please take the time to sign the petition. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Ebay Classifieds: Stop Selling Live Animals | Change.org


 
I just signed it.


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## irongrl

Jax's Mom said:


> I wrote a local newspaper in Toronto and let them know I disagree with their advertising of pets for sale under the "property for sale" heading. In response, they made a new "Pets" section. It's a start.
> 
> I'd like to see "reputable breeders" infiltrate mainstream advertising. I know they don't _need_ to advertise because they have good homes for their puppies lined up before they're even a glint in the milkman's eye, but how is the average Joe supposed to find reputable breeders if they're so illusive? There are still a ton of people out there that think purebred puppies are from pet stores and mixed breeds are from the pound.


Exactly! I would love to see reputable breeders using ebay classifieds. Last year, before I joined this forum, I would have looked at the current 
ebay puppy ads and thought that they were good breeders. Now I understand that puppies being sold at 6 weeks old for $300 are not from a reputable breeder.


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## Mac's Mom

irongrl said:


> Exactly! I would love to see reputable breeders using ebay classifieds. Last year, before I joined this forum, I would have looked at the current
> ebay puppy ads and thought that they were good breeders. Now I understand that puppies being sold at 6 weeks old for $300 are not from a reputable breeder.


Me too.


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## Emoore

Several rescues list their dogs on ebay classifieds as well. Adopters still have to go through the entire adoption procedure, they can't just click "buy it now." I know Good Shepherd Rescue has had several dogs go to great new homes that found them on ebay classifieds.


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## AgileGSD

I don't see why classifieds are viewed as evil by some. If people won't or can't keep their dogs any longer, they have a better chance finding a home through classifieds than being turned into a high kill shelter. People rehoming their own dogs keeps dogs out of shelters. Classifieds are also a great place for rescues to advertise. And ITA that knowledgeable breeders, especially of common breeds should advertise. Most pet owners have no idea how to find a knowledgeable breeder or what the difference is. But breeders who aren't knowledgeable advertise too? It isn't illegal to breed and sell dogs and hopefully it stays that way.


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## robinhuerta

I shop ebay...and never even knew that there was a "classified" section....
I buy candles & artwork from the auctions.....oh well, another story.
*I don't think that advertising one's dogs on a classified site is wrong....after all...like some people said, they looked for breeders there.
If good breeders advertise more in these types of classifieds, then more people will become educated...(or the chance to become).


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## DharmasMom

If reputable breeders and rescues were the only ones using Ebay and CL then I wouldn't have nearly such a big problem or even if they were just used for people to rehome their dogs. But they aren't. It is a fantastic way for puppy mills to sell their pups without any interference. Did you guys watch that video that was posted?? People like that horrible woman are using the internet to stay in business. At least with the classified sections of a newspaper a person has to pay to have their ad run and it doesn't reach the entire world with a click of a button. 

The internet makes it entirely too easy for people like that woman in the video to continue to sell her puppies, thereby horribly mistreating and abusing the parent dogs. She lost her license (not that it wasn't a joke) and is STILL operating and selling puppies. No ebay or CL = a whole lot harder to sell the pups.


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## Dainerra

Classified ads are cheap... there are dozens of local papers where people can post ads for free.

The ebay classifieds aren't enabling that woman to stay in business.


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## robinhuerta

Dharma.....your "passion" is completely noted and appreciated by many!
BUT...let's say...now that some of us (breeders) KNOW there is a classified section on Ebay or some other Internet Classified section...why would it be a negative situation for (us) to advertise our litters or dogs there??? Why would it be considered "taboo" to do such a thing? Advertisement is advertisement in my opinion....
*I'm asking this as a breeder*


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## MrsWoodcock

The breeder i got BOTH of my GSD's from, will sometimes put up GSD puppies on CL. Example... if there is a puppy or 2 left from a litter.... they are about 3 months- 5 months of age.... just to get the word out there. but OFCOURSE she is just as strict, if not MORE strict on finding out about them, what they are about before agreeing to sell. it took me and her talking for a month via phone and email before she agreed to sell me ruby. The fact that i had a previous GSD before really caught her attention, in knowing i was knowledgable, had a love for the breed, and knew what to expect!


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## DeeMcB

Mac's Mom said:


> Me too.


Me three.


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## DharmasMom

robinhuerta said:


> Dharma.....your "passion" is completely noted and appreciated by many!
> BUT...let's say...now that some of us (breeders) KNOW there is a classified section on Ebay or some other Internet Classified section...why would it be a negative situation for (us) to advertise our litters or dogs there??? Why would it be considered "taboo" to do such a thing? Advertisement is advertisement in my opinion....
> *I'm asking this as a breeder*



Do you use ebay? All we hear is that reputable breeders don't advertise in the paper or on CL. Why would ebay be any different? I guess I consider it taboo because puppy mills ARE using it. Just like pet stores except for there is NO regulation who sells on the internet. At least pet stores give the illusion of trying- they are only supposed to buy from "licensed brokers" as much of a joke as that is. 

I feel that reputable breeders get the word out without needing to go that route. But it does give a very large avenue to people like the woman in that video. And if even one puppy mill is put out of business because they have no way to advertise then I consider it worth it. Sorry, but I would rather you have to work a little harder to get the word out then to allow a woman who thinks it is ok to dip dogs in insecticide or do C-sections without anesthesia or any of the other atrocious things she was doing an avenue to continue to make money.


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## robinhuerta

No...I have never sold anything on Ebay...I buy on Ebay.
But if more decent breeders DID use more avenues in advertising...then the less scrupulous breeders would be easier to "detect".....
People like the woman you are speaking of....are everywhere.
Grouping individuals, simply by perceived notions is wrong...and actually, quite harmful and ignorant. *NO, I am not calling YOU ignorant!!*...I'm speaking of the act of "generalizing whole groups of people"...because of a select few.


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## DharmasMom

I haven't generalized anyone. I never said every person on their is a puppy mill. What I have said is that it gives a huge platform for puppy mills to operate. Why make it easy for them? Why give them an outlet to sell puppies and continue to breed more in abysmal conditions? 

Yes, people like that woman are everywhere. And she and the others like her will continue on as long as she has an easy place to market her puppies. So why give them that? 



The Cruel Reality Behind eBay Classifieds Pet Listings | Change.org News


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## robinhuerta

But it is the same place of advertisement for decent breeders......why punish one group from marketing, because of the few "bad apples"??


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## DharmasMom

Because the vast majority are not decent breeders. If the vast majority were, there wouldn't be a problem. The vast majority are byb and puppy mills. 


The Internet: a puppy mill?s best friend | DogTime.com - Find your wag.


And it isn't punishing decent breeders when there aren't that many using it. It isn't a "few bad apples" Most of the barrel is rotten, so why keep it?




> The truth is, the vast majority of puppies bought and sold online come from puppy mills, which have recently been fully exposed for the gruesome and inhumane business ventures they are


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## robinhuerta

What makes you think that the "majority" are byb's?? or puppy mills?
What "substantiated survey" has been done to come to that conclusion??
Perhaps...more decent breeders would "choose" to advertise there & other places as well....if the "stigma" of byb and puppymill didn't float around so much?
It's like people want their cake and eat it too.....

*Can't buy there, and close them down...because they're only byb breeders & puppy mills, not enough decent breeders advertise there........but if decent breeders advertised there more often, it wouldn't be such a bad place to advertise ....???* 
Again...I do not understand why a person should not advertise in classified areas....."The barrel is not necessarily rotten".
jmo


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## DharmasMom

What makes me say that is article after article that I have found that corroborates it. 


Puppy Sale = Puppy Mill? | DogTime.com - Find your wag.



> Looking for a puppy sale? You might want to think again. A great majority of puppies sold in pet stores and on the Internet come from puppy mills, estimates are as high as 95%. It is also estimated that there are over 4,000 puppy mills in the United States which produce over a half million puppies each year. Most of these puppies are sold to pet stores and in recent years have started to take over the Internet as well.




The Internet – The Latest Puppy Mill Outlet For the Love of the Dog




> Animal welfare advocates say the Internet has become the latest vehicle for large-scale dog breeding operations â€” or “puppy mills” â€” to sell their wares.
> The concern is that people who sell dogs over the Internet are able to skirt federal licensing and inspections because they are not considered wholesalers.



And I am not saying I want it both ways. I would like to see it stopped altogether.


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## robinhuerta

I decided to go take a look at the Ebay Classifieds for myself.....
I found it slow to navigate through....
I looked in the Chicago area for breeder ads.....I found 2 on the 5 pages that I looked at.
1 breeder also advertised on the PDB....the other breeder, I have personally met at the German Style Conformation shows, and I know belong to a training club in the Chicago suburbs. Although they are "newer" enthusiasts in this breed & sport....they have spent finances and time in their dogs. They are active in training & showing. (have both WL & SL)
Not my interpretation of a puppy mill...nor a byb. They seem to me, to be new enthusiasts.
But....I also do not know them on a "personal" level.

It definately is a "classified" site....but that really is all that it is.
*My point is simple...if all you look for is negative...then that is all you will find.
I needed to go see for myself....


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## Larien

I signed it, too. If people want a good dog, a 3 second search on eBay isn't nearly enough work. One should have to spend hours reading books, websites, forums and then even more hours perusing the internet for references to good breeders, and then even MORE hours choosing the right puppy. If that's too much work - then you shouldn't get a puppy, which is infinitely more difficult. I'm so tired of lazy people looking to CL and eBay not just to unload an oops litter or a problem pup, but also the ones buying them there who end up getting rid of them because they didn't do their homework. Shameful.


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## DharmasMom

I have been looking at them today as well since first getting the email. I looked in my area Richmond, Minnesota, Detroit and Missouri. There are rehomes, sure. But when I see "purebred dachsund puppies- $200" or "AKC registered german shepherd puppies- $500", "AKC chihuahua puppies- $200" I see byb or puppy mill. And I saw plenty of those. More than enough to convince that there are more disreputable breeders on there than reputable.


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## robinhuerta

Have you seen the countless forums that are solely for the selling of puppies?
They are simply forums of advertisements of litters, puppies & dogs for sale...from everywhere. Should they too be shut down??
After all...they are not Ebay or CL...but a huge marketing tool as well, and there are hundreds of them.
They have their little "info" pages of food, proper vet care, etc...etc...BUT their sole purpose is to advertise the sale of dogs period.
One could also say that they are advocates for puppy mills too.....
I'm sure buyers look to those forums as a resource of knowledge...are they being lazy & stupid too?
Where do we draw the line? What gives any of us the right to tell someone what they MUST do when buying or selling?
I don't advocate puppy mills or irresponsible breeding practices.
But I also don't find it necessary to punish the innocent.
Advertisement is simply advertisement....not the source of the problem.
Decent breeders also use that place to advertise.
jmo....you may have your thread back. We just share different opinions on this particular advertising topic.


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## robinhuerta

Dharma.....we usually sell our puppies for $1500 on average. (when we have puppies available). But I too have sold puppies for as little as $500...because a great home was more important than charging our normal fee.
If I _chose_ to advertise that particular puppy....it would have been advertised for the $500 price....scary, that the _stigma_ of BYB would have been placed on myself for accepting less than normal price for a puppy.....that's the point I am making.


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## Jessiewessie99

When I think Ebay I think merchandise and such, not puppies or nay animals. It is one of the last puppies I would look for a puppy because I would never think of getting a dog off ebay. :/

Would I? No.


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## robinhuerta

Like I said before....I buy off Ebay...have never sold anything.
Before this particular thread...I never even ventured into the classified section.
I think of Ebay...as a place to purchase & bid for merchandise.
But....after looking at the classifieds....I see just another place of advertisement...really nothing more.
*I'm drinking my morning coffee right now & reading the newspaper....and behold...a "classified section".....
Puppies advertised for $250 all the way up to $2000, multiple breeders.....(one) I even know.
It's just another form of advertisement.......we either choose to consider to purchase from or not.


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## MikeyMerciless

You can never really trust ebay and what they tell you. Either you buy something that looks completely different in the picture they showed, or they totally rip you off. I'm sure you've heard a million stories.


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## Tammy GSD

Larien said:


> I signed it, too. If people want a good dog, a 3 second search on eBay isn't nearly enough work. One should have to spend hours reading books, websites, forums and then even more hours perusing the internet for references to good breeders, and then even MORE hours choosing the right puppy. If that's too much work - then you shouldn't get a puppy, which is infinitely more difficult. I'm so tired of lazy people looking to CL and eBay not just to unload an oops litter or a problem pup, but also the ones buying them there who end up getting rid of them because they didn't do their homework. Shameful.


 
Wow! That was borderline offensive to me, actually (sorry to get riled up). I got my dog from the eBay classifieds after searching and reading ads all over the world for almost 4 weeks, literally 6-10 hours per day. I went to someone local and saw the environment, in person. I verified all info with the vet she said treated her dogs and puppies (and when I walk in the door there the first question is "That's one of XXXX's dogs, isn't it?" bc they know her so well...in a GOOD way) before we purchased from this reputable kennel and their starting prices for puppies is $1200. 

I am not lazy nor is it shameful because I got my forever girl from an ad on the eBay classifieds (which seems, at least locally, to be more full of rescue organizations than breeders of any sort). That was a pretty broad stroke with the paint brush, imho.


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## JakodaCD OA

As Robin said, there are "classifieds" and "dog selling" sites all over the internet. While some are probably byb'er's, puppymills, I'm sure there are legitimate sellers out there advertising via the net/via newspapers.

I think it's up to the buyer to do their homework and make educated decisions and if they don't, well they don't. Live and learn.

I think chastizing someone who loves their dog and has gotten them from an advertisement whether it's ebay or a newspaper is what's shameful. It certainly doesn't make YOU (again general you) any better of an owner or have a better dog than someone else.

Larien, I guess I would ask how you got your dog? Was it via the net? a newspaper ad?


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## Jax's Mom

Larien said:


> If that's too much work - then you shouldn't get a puppy, which is infinitely more difficult. I'm so tired of lazy people looking to CL and eBay not just to unload an oops litter or a problem pup, but also the ones buying them there who end up getting rid of them because they didn't do their homework. Shameful.


I know how you feel. 90% of chocolate sold in North America isn't fair trade certified but lazy fat people can mow down hundreds of pounds of this every year without properly researching what their eating. Same with coffee. And diamonds. And clothing. How many people read labels of things they're buying and think about where they're coming from? At least there is a limit to how much one person can "support" a BYB.


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## DharmasMom

It's not just advertising if it is doing harm. Otherwise cigarette advertisements would still be allowed. Before I started reading about this topic yesterday I had NO idea how bad the puppymill situation is. Appx 4000 of them in this country producing a half million dogs a year. How many parent dogs is that? Dogs that are being neglected, mistreated and some are just outright tortured. 

People go to ebay and find an adorable puppy curled up on a pretty pillow. Nowhere does the advertisement say "puppy mill" and the advertiser swears they are legit. So the person will buy the puppy unaware they are supporting a mill. Most people in this country don't do the homework they should do before they get a dog. If they did the shelters would not be so full. Puppy mills take advantage of that fact. And allowing them to advertise on a site as heavily traveled as ebay just puts money in their pocket. 

Ebay and decent breeders all got along swimmingly before ebay decided to do this. They will get along swimmingly if the practice is stopped. And it would be a start. If they really want to advertise animals then they should do rehomes and rescues only. They shouldn't allow people on there who are selling whole litters at time. And to answer your question, I would like to see all internet websites that allow puppies to be sold anonymously be shut down. But you have to start somewhere.


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## Hunther's Dad

irongrl said:


> Exactly! I would love to see reputable breeders using ebay classifieds. Last year, before I joined this forum, I would have looked at the current
> ebay puppy ads and thought that they were good breeders. Now I understand that puppies being sold at 6 weeks old for $300 are not from a reputable breeder.


How about posting an ad titled, "Reputable Breeder" that refers them here? 

"Cut and paste this link:

htt p/www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

For more info."

Would that violate the terms of use for this board?


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## arycrest

Debbi just curious, what venues are open to reputable breeders if you want to exclude them from mass market advertising? 

Web sites? Dozens of them put up by puppy mill breeders? 

Craigslist and similar forums? As you have stated, dozens of ads are put up by puppy mill breeders. 

Mass media such as newspapers and magazines? Again, you can find numerous ads for puppy mill breeders when searching these forums. 

So what's left? Where is John Q Public suppose to go for information about getting puppies from reputable breeders if all these venues should be closed to the reputable breeder for advertising?


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## DharmasMom

Seriously?? that is what I should be concerned about- how breeders are going to be able to advertise?? John Q Public isn't getting anything educational of that website. If they are really interested in learning they will do their homework and the internet is CHOCK FULL of info on how to find a reputable breeder. 

As for the breeders not being able to advertise - What did they do 2 years ago before Ebay started selling puppies?? 

There is no question that this won't stop the puppy mills but seriously, why make it so **** easy for them?? Is the breeders abiltiy to advertise really trump the misery of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that are suffering a living ****.

I have to say I am shocked by the attitudes of some of the people on this board. That they are more concerned with breeders and how they can make money then the welfare of dogs caught in horrific situations. Well apparently I am not alone. 86,000 people have signed the petition, that's 10 thousand more then this time yesterday.


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## arycrest

I don't think people are supporting the scum bag breeders, but that they are concerned about punishing reputable breeders because they reputable.


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## Jax's Mom

DharmasMom said:


> I have to say I am shocked by the attitudes of some of the people on this board. That they are more concerned with breeders and how they can make money then the welfare of dogs caught in horrific situations. Well apparently I am not alone. 86,000 people have signed the petition, that's 10 thousand more then this time yesterday.


Did puppy mills exist before the Internet?
And instead of just signing their name, an whining on the internet, why don't these 86,000 people have a bill introduced to make it illegal to breed dogs without a licence? We already have plenty of systems in place to regulate other things that we could model these laws after... cars, guns, etc... It's not that the government doesn't mind meddling.


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## Jessiewessie99

Even with a fancy website someone can be fooled into thinking the person is reputable. CL, Ebay, Kijiji are just like that. Its the internet, you have to be careful. Someone can have an awesome website, pictures and information, but then you go to the "breeder's" house and see its a horrible place. The same goes with ebay and CL, someone can post an awesome ad and then you go to the person's place its just some weirdo.

But then there are times when you see an awesome breeder's website and then go to the place and they are friendly, nice, have nice living situations for their dogs. Same goes for Ebay and CL, someone has an awesome ad and then they go and visit them and they people are nice friendly, the dogs are well taken care of.

When you are getting anything off the internet you have to be careful. When it comes to getting a puppy off these sites whether its a breeder's website, or ebay or CL its best to get as much information as you can on the dog's parents, health testing, pedigree information. Set up a time to meet the breeder and see what the living conditions and see if this person is real or just some weirdo trying to make a quick buck.

Just have to be careful.


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## Larien

Look, I didn't mean to offend anyone or sound mean, I just disagree with the practice of dogs in classified ads because they're so generic, and the average person can't tell the difference between the one a good breeder places and the one a puppy mill places. Often in MY paper, the puppy mills have a google picture of really cute maltipoos or whatever, and that hooks these idiots in whose only research is going down the list of ads in the paper after little Billy and Susie begged for a puppy.

Clearly I don't mean that people HERE were irresponsible, just being a member of this forum is going above and beyond what the average person does. If you researched, found a reputable breeder on eBay, that's wonderful, you did very well - but you ALSO followed through by researching, learning, reading, and scrutinizing the breeder, and most people do not do this on eBay, the average pet seeker, the target of my post.

I'm not talking about GSDs, I'm not talking about big deal dog enthusiasts like us, I'm talking about the average BYB puppy, the type of person who decides they'd love a cute puppy, and just browse eBay or CL until they find a cute one, and go and buy it. I've seen this a million times, my own cousin did it - she found a cute Rott on CL, and despite us warning her about BYBs, and the fact that she knew NOTHING about Rotts, she went and bought it without any preparation or research, it ate her couch, she took it to the pound.

So please don't think I was addressing any of you, because truly, I wasn't - just the types that say, oh that's cute, I'm gonna get it, because those are the people who end up dumping dogs when that adorable puppy does exactly what a puppy usually does, but they don't know that, because they didn't research or learn. See what I mean? It's an avenue for impulse buys, like a pet store. Which animals should never be.

And for the record, I did not find my dog via CL, eBay or newspaper ads, or similar classified ad sites. I discovered his breeder after hours of research and learning, and then I was investigating health and OFA by checking the numbers, and calling their vet. I would not purchase a dog from CL or eBay, but that's just me.

So again, to make sure you guys know I'm not directing stuff at you, (because I love this forum and all the people!) just people who see those ads and buy on impulse or without sufficient research.


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## CassandGunnar

I posted this reply on a different thread, but a lot of it applies here as well, in my opinion.



> Prior to coming to this forum/site, I thought I knew what questions I would ask a breeder to find out about purchasing a puppy and knew what to look for from a breeder.
> After going through and reading threads, I think I was on the right track, but have learned a lot and found things here I never would have considered.
> I don't think there is such a thing as "too much" information, good or bad. That also has to do with how I make decisions.
> There is a TON of good informaiton here, but in the end, it is up to the prospective buyer, based on what they want and how they process information and make a decision.
> There is also one other important thing to remember:
> 
> Let the buyer beware.
> 
> If someone reads an add on Craigslist, a newspaper, or finds something on an internet site and rushes out and gets a dog based on that, they are getting what they paid for or deserve. (Not trying to say that in a "mean spirited" way, just pointing out that it's up to you to educate yourself and show some due diligence when making any purchase, especially if you're going to spend a lot of your hard earned money on something. (Car, appliance, house or dog)
> If I go out and buy a new washing machine from some guy that has them for sale out of the back of his pickup truck in a parking lot and that washer works for 3 days and then falls apart, not too many people are going to feel sorry for me. And they probably shouldn't.
> I think the same principles should apply to buying a dog.


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## irongrl

Hunther's Dad said:


> How about posting an ad titled, "Reputable Breeder" that refers them here?
> 
> "Cut and paste this link:
> 
> htt p/www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html
> 
> For more info."
> 
> Would that violate the terms of use for this board?


That's an interesting idea. I would do it as long as it didn't violate this board's terms.


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## Dainerra

Sadly, though, shutting down ebay classifieds isn't going to make educated buyers. They will just buy from the guy with a sign in his yard. Or from the flyer posted at the feed store. Or the vets office. Or the parking lot of the local wal-mart.

I know people who have spent more time avoiding reputable people just because they consider them and their "nosey" questions to be snobby.


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## Alois

we just bought our female and when I was searching for GSD puppies in our area a link to her was from ebay along with one or two other sites I think. On the EBAY site was a phone number and a link to their personal website. The lady that sold us the puppy was extremely friendly, helpful and it was obvious that she had a lot of love and respect for her dogs/puppies. Its almost comical how people on this site get so bent out of shape over things. Are there bad breeders/people selling dogs on EBAY? yes! Are there bad people/breeders with fancy websites with "top notch" breeding lines...YES! Some of you should get off your high horse.


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## LARHAGE

Well I don't think we need yet another law to protect us from ourselves, everybody has the right to purchase a dog from whomever they would like, there are people out there that simply don't want to spend 1500 and up on a family pet,that doesn't make them a bad, stupid, ignorant person. I see no problem with people looking in newspapers or ebay or the feed store bulletin board, whats the big dam deal? Is stopping this going to all a sudden make people smarter and more investigative? There are horrible mass puppy breeders with huge fancy elaborate web sites that don't put an iota of time and love that a LOT of backyard breeders who sell out of their newspapers and bulletin boards at feed stores do. I think people should have the freedom to make their own decisions, just because someone bought a puppy from a great breeder, ie someone this board deems is a good breeder, doesn't mean they won't take that puppy to the pound if it eats a couch as well, the fact of the matter is everyone has the same information out there to discover, the fact is not everyone has the same goal for said puppies, I bought a JRT from a feed store bulletin board, the people lived on a ranch, competed in Earthdog events and had great puppies, my puppy from these breeders was the love of my life, a fantastic dog, I didn't need to pay 5 times the amount so I could have a fancy big time breeder dog, I bought my German Shepherd from a reputable well known breeder, in this case because I wanted to show and compete and therefore the stakes were higher, not everyone would have, nor should have to pay what I did for my dog, my friend has a gorgeous Shepherd from a newspaper ad, he too is a great dog, and he suits their families needs the same way mine fits me. I hate this notion of people thinking they have to tell US what constitutes a good or bad dog based on something as worthless as how it was acquired, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't need the Government to protect me from myself, or worse yet, tell me how I can purchase my pets.


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## RogueRed26

LARHAGE said:


> Well I don't think we need yet another law to protect us from ourselves, everybody has the right to purchase a dog from whomever they would like, there are people out there that simply don't want to spend 1500 and up on a family pet,that doesn't make them a bad, stupid, ignorant person. I see no problem with people looking in newspapers or ebay or the feed store bulletin board, whats the big dam deal? Is stopping this going to all a sudden make people smarter and more investigative? There are horrible mass puppy breeders with huge fancy elaborate web sites that don't put an iota of time and love that a LOT of backyard breeders who sell out of their newspapers and bulletin boards at feed stores do. I think people should have the freedom to make their own decisions, just because someone bought a puppy from a great breeder, ie someone this board deems is a good breeder, doesn't mean they won't take that puppy to the pound if it eats a couch as well, the fact of the matter is everyone has the same information out there to discover, the fact is not everyone has the same goal for said puppies, I bought a JRT from a feed store bulletin board, the people lived on a ranch, competed in Earthdog events and had great puppies, my puppy from these breeders was the love of my life, a fantastic dog, I didn't need to pay 5 times the amount so I could have a fancy big time breeder dog, I bought my German Shepherd from a reputable well known breeder, in this case because I wanted to show and compete and therefore the stakes were higher, not everyone would have, nor should have to pay what I did for my dog, my friend has a gorgeous Shepherd from a newspaper ad, he too is a great dog, and he suits their families needs the same way mine fits me. I hate this notion of people thinking they have to tell US what constitutes a good or bad dog based on something as worthless as how it was acquired, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't need the Government to protect me from myself, or worse yet, tell me how I can purchase my pets.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:



I think its interesting to hear that it seems nothing is clear of bybs, so there are no avenues of advertising responsible breeders? If its not Cl, its ebay, if not vet clinics, its the newspaper, if not that its even internet websites that are too flashy. Its a never ending cycle. Bybs are everywhere! I will give you that, but how is a responsible breeder suppose to advertise? On dog fancy? By word of mouth? Its almost difficult to pin point them.

At reading this thread, I understand everyone's strong viewpoint on bybs, but it seems nothing is enough when it comes to advertising. Some say, newspapers are a bit more reliable only because the individual will have to PAY for the ad. And ads can be expensive. Over here, where I live, it costs $31 for 30 characters a DAY, including spaces. The well known newspaper in our area charges $60 for 30 characters a DAY! I understand that a BYB would want to use this method as well, but at least it will cost them to have it up. But this doesn't seem to be enough either.


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## PupperLove

wildo said:


> Did you guys happen to read the comments on that page? Someone linked to this video showing the issues with unregulated sales of puppies via local classifieds such as CL or Ebay.
> 
> Caution- quite disturbing and graphic!
> CAPS vs. Bauck on Vimeo


 
THAT VIDEO WAS HORRIBLE! That's right up there with the "whats really in pet food" video. I think it might actually be worse....


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## Chicagocanine

Rerun said:


> ebay classifieds are like craigslist....ebay bought out kijiji.com which was a free online classifieds site. It's not a bidding auction like the regular ebay. Just classifieds. You e-mail or call the people.


Actually from what I understand Ebay owned Kijiji from the beginning. They just recently decided to change the name to Ebay Classifieds. It's no different than Kijiji, just the name has changed. Not that this means it's good that they sell pets there but I don't understand the big uproar suddenly when it's actually the same thing with a new name.


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## DharmasMom

Alois said:


> we just bought our female and when I was searching for GSD puppies in our area a link to her was from ebay along with one or two other sites I think. On the EBAY site was a phone number and a link to their personal website. The lady that sold us the puppy was extremely friendly, helpful and it was obvious that she had a lot of love and respect for her dogs/puppies. Its almost comical how people on this site get so bent out of shape over things. Are there bad breeders/people selling dogs on EBAY? yes! Are there bad people/breeders with fancy websites with "top notch" breeding lines...YES! Some of you should get off your high horse.




If being on my "high horse" means I want to see the end of a site like ebay enabling people who warehouse dogs in tiny cages, never exercise or socialize those dogs, dip them in insecticide as a method of treating fleas, perform c-sections on a pregnant bitch while she is awake and tied to a able, refuse them veterinary care when they are sick or injured, starve them, breed bitches with every heat cycle until they are too old to produce anymore then dump them in the street or just outright kill them, if 
wanting to see that stopped means I am on a "high horse" then you bet I am! And that horse is so high it makes the Trojan horse look small.

Apparently there are people out there that are more concerned about "reputable" breeders being able to make a buck or being able to get a cheap puppy with little effort than the welfare of hundreds of thousands of dogs. But then again, why should we care? As long as people can achieve their own personal gain then who cares about those dogs. I mean, they are only dogs, right?


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## DharmasMom

Chicagocanine said:


> Actually from what I understand Ebay owned Kijiji from the beginning. They just recently decided to change the name to Ebay Classifieds. It's no different than Kijiji, just the name has changed. Not that this means it's good that they sell pets there but I don't understand the big uproar suddenly when it's actually the same thing with a new name.



I had never heard of Kijiji. If I had I would have protested that site as well. I only just found out about what ebay was doing a few days ago. And I am disgusted.


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## DharmasMom

LARHAGE said:


> Well I don't think we need yet another law to protect us from ourselves, everybody has the right to purchase a dog from whomever they would like, there are people out there that simply don't want to spend 1500 and up on a family pet,that doesn't make them a bad, stupid, ignorant person. I see no problem with people looking in newspapers or ebay or the feed store bulletin board, whats the big dam deal? Is stopping this going to all a sudden make people smarter and more investigative? There are horrible mass puppy breeders with huge fancy elaborate web sites that don't put an iota of time and love that a LOT of backyard breeders who sell out of their newspapers and bulletin boards at feed stores do. I think people should have the freedom to make their own decisions, just because someone bought a puppy from a great breeder, ie someone this board deems is a good breeder, doesn't mean they won't take that puppy to the pound if it eats a couch as well, the fact of the matter is everyone has the same information out there to discover, the fact is not everyone has the same goal for said puppies, I bought a JRT from a feed store bulletin board, the people lived on a ranch, competed in Earthdog events and had great puppies, my puppy from these breeders was the love of my life, a fantastic dog, I didn't need to pay 5 times the amount so I could have a fancy big time breeder dog, I bought my German Shepherd from a reputable well known breeder, in this case because I wanted to show and compete and therefore the stakes were higher, not everyone would have, nor should have to pay what I did for my dog, my friend has a gorgeous Shepherd from a newspaper ad, he too is a great dog, and he suits their families needs the same way mine fits me. I hate this notion of people thinking they have to tell US what constitutes a good or bad dog based on something as worthless as how it was acquired, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't need the Government to protect me from myself, or worse yet, tell me how I can purchase my pets.



I have no desire to "protect" you from anything. You or any other walking upright, two legged human. I want to protect those dogs that are being systematically tortured by these huge puppy mills. If you want to get a dog from a byb that treats their dogs well but doesn't test or title their dogs. Be my guest, take your chances with what you get. 

Of course if all that is important to you is that you can buy your dog wherever and whenever you want, feel free to use your neighborhood pet store then next time you feel you want to purchase a dog.


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## LARHAGE

DharmasMom said:


> I have no desire to "protect" you from anything. You or any other walking upright, two legged human. I want to protect those dogs that are being systematically tortured by these huge puppy mills. If you want to get a dog from a byb that treats their dogs well but doesn't test or title their dogs. Be my guest, take your chances with what you get.
> 
> Of course if all that is important to you is that you can buy your dog wherever and whenever you want, feel free to use your neighborhood pet store then next time you feel you want to purchase a dog.




The fact is pet stores have been found guilty of buying from puppy mills, there are reputable breeders that advertise on classified sites, so just because YOU don't like it you want to make US not buy from them, and yes, a lot of people have bought great pets from untitled parents, not everyone has the same criteria for their pets, and I have news for you, there are stupid and cruel breeders in the world, some are wolves in sheeps clothing, to imply that those people only advertise on e-bay and classifieds is a bit disengenuous, if it was a proven fact that only millers used these venues than you would have a point, but they don't, and you may not care about breeders, but a lot of us do, and we should have the right to buy our puppies from the newspapers or feed store bulletin boards whether YOU like it or not, I am a huge animal advocate, and would never support the type of idiot breeders you mentioned, but to imply they only advertise in the newspapers or bulletin boards is just not stating the actual facts, people have been selling puppies since the beginning of time, there will always be places to sell them, by having good well bred dogs as readily available as millers puppies will be far more beneficial to help close down the mill puppies, the difference in quality is quite evident, but even than, there are simply going to be people who don't care and will buy the cheap dog, it's not going to change by closing classified ads.


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## DharmasMom

Jiminey Crickets!! Have you even read any of the links I posted?? Have you even read through this thread?? No where, NO WHERE have I said ANYTHING about newspapers and bulletin boards! And every link I posted and plenty I didn't post say there is a DIRECT correlation between puppy mills and the INTERNET. It contributes to their business, just like pet stores do. 

And the argument that "there have always been cruel breeders" is a wussy one. That is basically saying- Well, they have always been there so why do anything about it?


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## Zeusismydog

Craiglist is not for breeders. I know the "flagging" police (and yes I am one of them) jump on any ad that says "puppies". Now if you have one puppy and you are asking a reasonable rehoming fee (and no I don't consider $500 a rehoming fee that is selling), then I am fine with it. I am not against good breeders. I am against people using a place that is for helping people find good home for unwanted pets. Yes I know BYB use it, but it is not as easy as it was and they spend a lot of time reposting adds. 

Paper classifieds and ebay can help you find local breeders and I don't see a problem with that. I think that is a two edge sword. Puppy mills are horrible and need to be stopped. That is a no brainer. My question is where do you draw the line at byb and a small good breeder? There was another topic that talked about titled parents. Some thought is was a good thing others thought that it was not nessary. <sigh> I wish it was as easy as right and wrong.

I think imho if a good breeder wants to use the paper or ebay, why not? It makes it easier for a local person to find them. In the end it is the buyer responsibility to make sure they are getting from a breeder that cares. It is kinda like buying a ring. Now if I sell a 3 caret diamond ring for $400 are you going to believe that it is real? Of course not.

I would NEVER buy a dog or cat from a pet store. My biggest question would be for the small GOOD breeders. How would stricter regulations affect you? Since I am no breeder I don't know the laws or honestly all that is involved in the process. I do know that to do all the things you should do it is a lot of hard work and there is a lot of unseen bills.

I think I have strayed from the main topic. I do think good breeders should advertise on ebay, feed stores, and paper classifieds. It gets the word out to local people. Maybe someone will see "GSD puppy $1500" and ask what makes your puppy so much more expensive? Is it really worth it? When people start asking questions, then we can teach people what they should look for. 
I hope I haven't made myself look stupid.


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## Zeusismydog

The internet is also a two edge sword. How do you know the person you are dealing with is a puppy mill or a good breeder? References are easy to fake. Vets will just tell you yes their animals are cared for (the ones they see). So how do you decide? 
Again I wish there was an easy answer, but there is not. I think the more good breeders get their names out the more competition the byb and puppy mills have. So is it a bad thing?


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## robinhuerta

Perhaps looking at the other thread regarding a *something about* a "Reputable Website" .......is needed....
And I don't think it's about an advertisement on Ebay Classifieds....


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## DharmasMom

I am not naive enough to think that stopping ebay from selling animals will stop the puppy mills. But it is a start. Ebay is huge, enormous. Everyone with access to the internet knows you can find anything you want on ebay. And puppy millers know this too. There are not as many reputable breeders selling on ebay as there are millers and unscrupulous bybs. 



Puppy e-Mills Churn Out Sick Dogs, Big Profits




Dogs Life Magazine Puppy Mills





> Technology has given a huge boost to the industry, enabling puppy mills to not only profit, but to expand. “The puppy mills took advantage of people not wanting to buy from pet stores,” says Shain. “They hit these people in their homes through the Internet.” Tech-savvy puppy mill owners use adorable photos and clever wording on attractive websites to entice well-meaning buyers to purchase from their carefully disguised puppy factories. These sites may be similar to informational websites from responsible breeders, but warning bells should go off in your head if a “breeder” allows you to buy a dog over the Internet, sight unseen.



At least CL tries to keep millers and byb off their website. I give them credit for that. Ebay should do the same. Like I said earlier, I would have no problem if they were doing adoptions or rehomes only. But they are not. And the venue that they are offering to puppy mills is too huge to ignore.


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## Alois

DharmasMom said:


> If being on my "high horse" means I want to see the end of a site like ebay enabling people who warehouse dogs in tiny cages, never exercise or socialize those dogs, dip them in insecticide as a method of treating fleas, perform c-sections on a pregnant bitch while she is awake and tied to a able, refuse them veterinary care when they are sick or injured, starve them, breed bitches with every heat cycle until they are too old to produce anymore then dump them in the street or just outright kill them, if
> wanting to see that stopped means I am on a "high horse" then you bet I am! And that horse is so high it makes the Trojan horse look small.
> 
> Apparently there are people out there that are more concerned about "reputable" breeders being able to make a buck or being able to get a cheap puppy with little effort than the welfare of hundreds of thousands of dogs. But then again, why should we care? As long as people can achieve their own personal gain then who cares about those dogs. I mean, they are only dogs, right?


yes...because ALL ebay puppy sellers are like this[/sarcasm] Your response was very much predictable from the way this thread is playing out. With that said! Take away everyones right to sell puppies on ebay[/sarcasm]


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## DharmasMom

Alois said:


> yes...because ALL ebay puppy sellers are like this[/sarcasm] Your response was very much predictable from the way this thread is playing out. With that said! Take away everyones right to sell puppies on ebay[/sarcasm]



LMAO. Please show me which amendment in the Bill Of Rights guarantees a person's right to sell anything on ebay. I am not familiar with the "Right to sell on ebay" amendment.


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## Chicagocanine

There are plenty of other classifieds sites other than Ebay/Kijiji... 
In addition to the online/national ones, the local papers where I live also have online classifieds (including pets.)


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## Whiteshepherds

I think a lot of rescues and shelters are using the Ebay classifieds as another way to get the word out about dogs in need. If you convince Ebay to stop the pet ads you're going to be hurting them as well. There's no easy answer.


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## Dainerra

I think my problem is that it is an attempt to legislate other people's decision. You can't make it illegal for people to make bad decisions. As long as the market is there, puppy mills will exist. So will bybs. If you say they can't use ebay, someone will create another website just for that purpose.

Make it illegal to sell puppies online? Make it illegal to ship them out of state? Sure, that would make it more difficult for the mills, but the bybs would flurish. It would make things even more difficult for reputable breeders. Even the mills would have an easy time getting around it, but it would cripple access to reputable kennels.

The only way to end this is to continue to educate the public.


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## Dainerra

Just wanted to add this:

The main problem with petitions like this is they promote "feel good" response rather than anything constructive. It is the same with breed bans and other breeding legislation. It allows those involved to say "look what I did" when in reality there is either zero effect or, worst case scenario, a negative effect.
I would rather people take meaningful steps to stop the problem(education to end the demand) rather than token efforts that are merely public displays that make people feel good. Its a huge problem that requires a vast concentrated effort, but as long as there is even one person who wants to purchase there will be a mill or byb to supply.


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## Alois

DharmasMom said:


> LMAO. Please show me which amendment in the Bill Of Rights guarantees a person's right to sell anything on ebay. I am not familiar with the "Right to sell on ebay" amendment.


I'm also unfamiliar with the "illegal selling of dog" rules, laws or whatever...then again. I'm unfamilar with this because its TOTALLY legal and have had luck with a great breeder. You're most likely a ** removed by ADMIN** that has a issue with anyone and everyone that doesn't treat their dogs EXACTLY as you do. Again...please step off your high horse and join the norm

thanks!


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## Alois

All those in favor of banning the selling of dogs via ebay, newspapers, flyers, in public parking lots, on the side of US HWYs and everything minus "big time breeders" say "I"

happy??


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## DharmasMom

Dainerra said:


> I think my problem is that it is an attempt to legislate other people's decision. You can't make it illegal for people to make bad decisions. As long as the market is there, puppy mills will exist. So will bybs. If you say they can't use ebay, someone will create another website just for that purpose.
> 
> Make it illegal to sell puppies online? Make it illegal to ship them out of state? Sure, that would make it more difficult for the mills, but the bybs would flurish. It would make things even more difficult for reputable breeders. Even the mills would have an easy time getting around it, but it would cripple access to reputable kennels.
> 
> The only way to end this is to continue to educate the public.


First off, I have never said ANYTHING about making it illegal. I am all for breeders having websites. That is imperative for people to find them. Not a problem. But I would like to point out that we make it illegal for people to make bad decisions everyday. If I decide to go get hammered and then get behind the wheel of my car and thereby kill a family of four. That is a BAD decision that can get me quite a few years in the pokey. If I decide I need to supplement my income and start importing heroin or set up a meth lab in my spare bathroom, that is a VERY BAD decision that will cost me a few years of freedom. If I decide I am sick to death of my neighbors parking on the street and blocking my driveway and blow up their car, well, again that would be a VERY BAD decision that would end up with me needing a defense attorney. 

But again, I have not said anything about making it illegal. I would like to see ebay take some responsibility and not contribute to the puppy mill trade. I would have no issue with them offering rehomes, rescues and shelters a place to advertise.



Alois said:


> I'm also unfamiliar with the "illegal selling of dog" rules, laws or whatever...then again. I'm unfamilar with this because its TOTALLY legal and have had luck with a great breeder. You're most likely a liberal tree hugging hippie that has a issue with anyone and everyone that doesn't treat their dogs EXACTLY as you do. Again...please step off your high horse and join the norm
> 
> thanks!



Thank you for calling me a liberal, tree hugging, hippie. I consider that quite a compliment. So you had luck- and that is exactly what it was, luck- finding a breeder on ebay. Not everybody is going to do their homework, they will buy the first puppy being offered at a cheap price of the website. I don't see any reason for ebay (or any other classified site) to make it easy for those people to hock their puppies. 

As for how people treat their dogs, as long as it is HUMANELY, I really don't have a problem with most things. And if "step off my high horse and join the norm" means look the other way and ignore the fact that ebay is giving a HUGE, unregulated platform for puppy mills to use, then no thanks.


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## Alois

DharmasMom said:


> Thank you for calling me a**********, hippie. I consider that quite a compliment.


BINGO! 


End of Thread


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## DharmasMom

LMAO x 1000. Why on earth would I consider that an insult?? I must say I do prefer the term "bunny hugger" over "tree hugger" though. Next you will be calling me an atheistic heathen. And I won't get upset by that either. 

But since you apparently don't know the difference between having a "right" to do something and not or the difference between making something illegal vs just having a practice stopped then I guess I won't overly concern myself with your feeble attempts at insulting me.


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## Whiteshepherds

DharmasMom said:


> But I would like to point out that we make it illegal for people to make bad decisions everyday. If I decide to go get hammered and then get behind the wheel of my car and thereby kill a family of four. That is a BAD decision that can get me quite a few years in the pokey. If I decide I need to supplement my income and start importing heroin or set up a meth lab in my spare bathroom, that is a VERY BAD decision that will cost me a few years of freedom. etc. etc. etc.


The difference is, the laws you're talking about punish people when they make bad decisions, they don't punish innocent people or take away their rights.



> Thank you for calling me a *******. I consider that quite a compliment. So you had luck- and that is exactly what it was, luck- finding a breeder on ebay. Not everybody is going to do their homework, they will buy the first puppy being offered at a cheap price of the website. I don't see any reason for ebay (or any other classified site) to make it easy for those people to hock their puppies.


Your goal is protect innocent dogs from being born to puppy mills, and that's a noble cause, I just think you're just going about it the wrong way. 



> As for how people treat their dogs, as long as it is HUMANELY, I really don't have a problem with most things. And if "step off my high horse and join the norm" means look the other way and ignore the fact that ebay is giving a HUGE, unregulated platform for puppy mills to use, then no thanks.


:surrender:Okay, let's say you're right. Ebay should regulate what dogs can be sold on their site. 
Who's going to regulate it? You? The government? The Humane Society? Peta? Breeders? Rescue organizations?

Who's going to decide what constitutes a puppy mill? What will the criteria be?


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## Emoore

I'm still trying to figure out why "tree-hugger" got modded out? :thinking:


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## Zeusismydog

So to everyone who wants to ban ebay and other sites from selling puppies/dogs. Where should the general public (yes the uninformed people who "just want a pet") go? I am not saying it is right. I think people should do their homework before getting anything, but it is not going to happen to a large degree. So what is the answer? As long as there is a demand for puppies, especially cheep puppies there will be puppy mills and byb. What do you suggest a low income family who wants fido for timmy go? Sure they are not going to spend $50 a bag on dog food, more like dog chow. Their dog will be loved but it will live a poor life like his family. Where should this family get a dog? For the sake of argument lets say the pound is not an option as they want a "real GSD".

I hate byb and puppy mills as much as anyone. I would love to see them stopped. I think it can only be accomplished with education. I also know that there is a HUGE number of people who not only don't care about bloodlines, titles (what are those?), ofa, and the other 100 things good breeders look at but don't know they exist. How do we reach those people, who are the core of the problem? These people would never think of going to a dog show. Their dog most likely never leave their house (unless it gets lucky and gets a car ride). 

99% of us here are "dog" people. We not only care about our dogs we are driven to investigate, learn, and improve the breed. We come together because we want to make a difference in the lives of dogs that are not being treated well.

I really would like to know if anyone has an answer. How do we get good puppies out to the public when they are not willing/able to pay for that quality. <sigh> Will there ever be a answer?


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## robinhuerta

It is a person's right to make good & bad decisions....they must deal with the consequences. Telling someone where they have the option to advertise or purchase from is a form of dictatorship.
I have a problem with irresponsible breeding practises also, and I believe in educating the novices that love this breed...
But when you infringe on those person's rights (puppy mills) to advertise...you infringe on mine and everyone else's....and that is what I have a problem with.


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## DharmasMom

*sigh*. There is no inherent "right" to sell on ebay. Ebay decides who and what can be sold on their site. They already have a large list of what cannot be advertised on their site, based on legal, moral and ethical standards. It is not illegal to sell Nazi paraphernalia but ebay restricts it from being sold on their site because the consider it offensive. No one's rights are being violated because there is no "right" to be on there.


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## robinhuerta

Dharma.....because Ebay allows their classified section to advertise the sell of animals along with anything else they deem sellable....IS the "right" I am speaking of.
My "stand/opinion" is not the "right" to be able to sell animals or not sell animals.....it is the "right" to advertise ANYWHERE, there is an allowable forum to do so.....
You say that it is not anyone's "right" to sell/advertise on Ebay.....then how is it your "right" to say what should and should not be sold or advertised???
*The big picture of outside dictatorship is my point.....not Ebay itself.


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## Jessiewessie99

If you are buying anything on the internet whether it is from a breeder's website, Ebay, Amazon, etc you have to be careful.


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## DharmasMom

robinhuerta said:


> Dharma.....because Ebay allows their classified section to advertise the sell of animals along with anything else they deem sellable....IS the "right" I am speaking of.
> My "stand/opinion" is not the "right" to be able to sell animals or not sell animals.....it is the "right" to advertise ANYWHERE, there is an allowable forum to do so.....
> You say that it is not anyone's "right" to sell/advertise on Ebay.....then how is it your "right" to say what should and should not be sold or advertised???
> *The big picture of outside dictatorship is my point.....not Ebay itself.


 

Allowable- that is the operative word right there. You can avertise based on what a medium that runs advertisements ALLOWS. It is the decision of the owners of ebay or any other classified site or TV or radio or a bulletin board in a feed store of what will and will not be allowed. There is no "right". You advertise at the will of the owners of the medium. 

I do not have a right to tell ebay what they can or cannot do (believe me this would be easier if I could). It is not my decision. What I DO have a "right" to do is protest, disagree, and even assemble outside their headquarters if that is what I choose to do. That "right" is guaranteed by the first amendment and I think we all have heard of that one. You also have the "right" to disagree with me, encourage ebay, and assemble outside of their headquarters to show your support. But at no time do you have a "right" to advertise. Unless you decide to buy a internet site, newpaper, TV station, radio station, etc. Then the decision is all yours.


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## robinhuerta

I believe that education is a far better tool than dictatorship anyday....


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## DharmasMom

And you know what is great? You have the right to not only hold that opinion but to express in any way and as loud as you want. And I have the right to disagree.


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## robinhuerta

Yes...I surely do!


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## selzer

Ebay classifieds would not be my choice for looking for an animal, but I do not see it as any better or worse than local newspapers, craig'slist, or many other forums for advertising dogs. 

The advertising of pets for sale is not the problem. Perhaps people would be less likely to look at conditions etc, from this method. But we do not know that. People who have allowed their dog to have progeny do need to find those dogs homes. Not all of those people know the accpetable places to advertise the puppies. 

If for some reason, someone can prove that selling puppies off of e-bay classified ads is causing undue neglect and abuse of dogs, then I can see protesting them. 

But some people just want to villify anyone who has had a litter of puppies. And any method of advertising those puppies is therefore disgusting and should be banned.


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## Klamari

I think if Ebay stopped allowing puppy sales, then the puppy mills would just find another outlet to sell their dogs. If there is a market, as in there are people out there who are ignorant and willing to buy from puppy mills, the mills WILL find a way to advertise that! 

You stop CL and Ebay today, tomorrow there will be 5 more sites advertising those same puppies. How are you going to stop all of them? You cant. I agree with Robin, the best solution is to educate buyers.


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## DharmasMom

selzer said:


> Ebay classifieds would not be my choice for looking for an animal, but I do not see it as any better or worse than local newspapers, craig'slist, or many other forums for advertising dogs.
> 
> The advertising of pets for sale is not the problem. Perhaps people would be less likely to look at conditions etc, from this method. But we do not know that. People who have allowed their dog to have progeny do need to find those dogs homes. Not all of those people know the accpetable places to advertise the puppies.
> 
> If for some reason, someone can prove that selling puppies off of e-bay classified ads is causing undue neglect and abuse of dogs, then I can see protesting them.
> 
> But some people just want to villify anyone who has had a litter of puppies. And any method of advertising those puppies is therefore disgusting and should be banned.



I see it as worse than craigslist because craigslist does not actually allow animals to be "sold" they can be given away or a rehoming fee can be charged but someone can not advertise a litter of puppies for $300 each. The ad would be removed. I see it as worse than a local newspaper because it reaches a MUCH larger audience. When I looked a the ebay classifieds for my area with 125 mile radius 11 pages came up on the first page and there were more pages to go. My Sunday paper will have 2-3 columns of puppies advertised at the most. Plus it costs a whole lot more to use a local paper, ebay is free. That alone is encouragement. 

Ebay in particular has not been proven to contribute to puppy mills but the internet in general has. It isn't a large leap of thinking to make the connection that ebay will as well. 

I do believe education is important but I don't believe education alone is then answer, nor do I believe education alone will work. Honestly, I would like to see tougher laws and puppy mills shut down at the root of the problem. But I also am aware that in this economy there is not enough money or resources for law enforcement agencies to actually do anything about them. Actually investigating, raiding, and shutting down puppy mills would take an enormous amount of time and money that most localities just don't have right now. So making it as difficult for them to advertise is the next best thing. Just relying on people to say no isn't good enough. Will stopping ebay completely stop them? No, of course not. But it does make it a little bit harder. Ebay is huge, ginormous. Anyone with internet access knows about ebay. I consider it the internet equivalent if Walmart decided to start selling puppies. And I am willing to bet most of the people who are using it either don't know or aren't willing to do the their homework on where their puppy is coming from.

I am not one of those people who vilify or jump on every one who has a litter of puppies. I understand accidents happen. But I don't think people should be willing to throw their puppies up on ebay and give them away to the first person who comes along who has cash in hand either. 





Klamari said:


> I think if Ebay stopped allowing puppy sales, then the puppy mills would just find another outlet to sell their dogs. If there is a market, as in there are people out there who are ignorant and willing to buy from puppy mills, the mills WILL find a way to advertise that!
> 
> You stop CL and Ebay today, tomorrow there will be 5 more sites advertising those same puppies. How are you going to stop all of them? You cant. I agree with Robin, the best solution is to educate buyers.



I guess I see at as just the opposite. I don't believe you should say "well, you can't stop it so let ebay advertise". What is next? You can't stop it so let Walmart sell puppies? No you will never completely be able to stop it, even with all of the education in the world because there are people that just don't care about the conditions that dogs are living in as long as they can get a cheap puppy. Everybody has been screaming in this thread that stopping ebay will make it sooo much harder for reputable breeders to advertise. Then it seems to me that maybe, just maybe it will make it a little bit harder for the puppy mills to advertise as well.


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## Klamari

DharmasMom said:


> I guess I see at as just the opposite. I don't believe you should say "well, you can't stop it so let ebay advertise". What is next? You can't stop it so let Walmart sell puppies? No you will never completely be able to stop it, even with all of the education in the world because there are people that just don't care about the conditions that dogs are living in as long as they can get a cheap puppy. *Everybody has been screaming in this thread that stopping ebay will make it sooo much harder for reputable breeders to advertise. Then it seems to me that maybe, just maybe it will make it a little bit harder for the puppy mills to advertise as well*.


I think we are looking at this issue from two different perspectives. You see, when you say it could make just a little bit of difference in regards to puppy mills, but would make is SO hard for breeders and rescues to advertise, then how is it fair to those who are actually trying to do some good? I realize it's not fair to the dogs in the mill. But it's also not fair to them to put so much effort and time into something that really won't make that much of a difference in the end. It would be more fair to them to try to find an actual solution to the problem.

If someone has stomach cancer and they are in terrible pain, are you only going to give them pain meds? No, you try to treat the underlying problem. Trying to regulate these advertising websites is just throwing time and effort into treating a symptom of the problem. You're not fixing anything, you're not helping those dogs. By regulating ads, you might stop 10% of those dogs from being sold. Ok, so what about the other 90%? How are you being fair to them? If it's not going to work well, find something else that will work better. 

I think advertizing for rescues is a better option. There are rescues that save those puppy mill dogs that advertize on ebay. You would be putting a stop to that too. How is it fair to those dogs who are looking for homes? 

Think about the problem in terms of pure practicality. How many people are advertizing and running puppy mills? Hypothetically, let's just say 500. Now how many people are BUYING from those puppy mills and supporting the industry. In comparison, 100,000. Why wouldn't it be more effective to target the majority of people who are contributing to the problem?


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## robinhuerta

Cayla.....I share the same philosophy.
That is why education (in the end) will always prevail.
We have all started somewhere in our "ideas" & beliefs, what we thought was correct and normal....through education, we have all learned and continue to learn, what is correct, appropriate & ethical. 
I admire the ideals that are being expressed on this thread....but education in the long run...will result in the biggest and longest lasting change....it is not a fast fix.


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## DharmasMom

Klamari said:


> I think we are looking at this issue from two different perspectives. You see, when you say it could make just a little bit of difference in regards to puppy mills, but would make is SO hard for breeders and rescues to advertise, then how is it fair to those who are actually trying to do some good? I realize it's not fair to the dogs in the mill. But it's also not fair to them to put so much effort and time into something that really won't make that much of a difference in the end. It would be more fair to them to try to find an actual solution to the problem.
> 
> If someone has stomach cancer and they are in terrible pain, are you only going to give them pain meds? No, you try to treat the underlying problem. Trying to regulate these advertising websites is just throwing time and effort into treating a symptom of the problem. You're not fixing anything, you're not helping those dogs. By regulating ads, you might stop 10% of those dogs from being sold. Ok, so what about the other 90%? How are you being fair to them? If it's not going to work well, find something else that will work better.
> 
> I think advertizing for rescues is a better option. There are rescues that save those puppy mill dogs that advertize on ebay. You would be putting a stop to that too. How is it fair to those dogs who are looking for homes?
> 
> Think about the problem in terms of pure practicality. How many people are advertizing and running puppy mills? Hypothetically, let's just say 500. Now how many people are BUYING from those puppy mills and supporting the industry. In comparison, 100,000. Why wouldn't it be more effective to target the majority of people who are contributing to the problem?



I have stated several times that I would support allowing rescues and rehomes to advertise. Just like CL does.


As for how many puppy mills are out there. The low estimate I read was 4000, the high estimate was 10,000.


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## DharmasMom

robinhuerta said:


> Cayla.....I share the same philosophy.
> That is why education (in the end) will always prevail.
> We have all started somewhere in our "ideas" & beliefs, what we thought was correct and normal....through education, we have all learned and continue to learn, what is correct, appropriate & ethical.
> I admire the ideals that are being expressed on this thread....but education in the long run...will result in the biggest and longest lasting change....it is not a fast fix.



I am not disagreeing with you on the importance of education. I just don't believe education alone works. Think of it this way. Look at the billions of dollars that has been spent educating people on the dangers of drugs. From the time a child is in elementary school, they are taught that drugs are dangerous. It hasn't worked though. There is still a HUGE market for drugs. You can teach and preach about what is moral, correct, ethical and appropriate until you are blue in the face but there are always going to be people out there that want to take the easiest and cheapest way out.


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## Klamari

DharmasMom said:


> I have stated several times that I would support allowing rescues and rehomes to advertise. Just like CL does.
> 
> 
> As for how many puppy mills are out there. The low estimate I read was 4000, the high estimate was 10,000.


How would you know if a "rehome" wasn't just a puppy mill with a front?

I know it wasn't an accurate number, that's why I said "hypothetically". Just to compare two numbers and give perspective. You're numbers sound about right to me. 




DharmasMom said:


> I am not disagreeing with you on the importance of education. I just don't believe education alone works. Think of it this way. Look at the billions of dollars that has been spent educating people on the dangers of drugs. From the time a child is in elementary school, they are taught that drugs are dangerous. It hasn't worked though. There is still a HUGE market for drugs. You can teach and preach about what is moral, correct, ethical and appropriate until you are blue in the face but there are always going to be people out there that want to take the easiest and cheapest way out.


And look at the billions of dollars spent trying to regulate, police, and prosecute for drug crimes. That's obviously not working either. You can make rules and punish people for the wrong they do all day long, but they are still going to find ways to get what they want. 

So if neither education nor regulation is going to work, why not try the option that doesn't make it harder for good breeders and rescues to get their dogs seen?


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## DharmasMom

Do me a favor. Look at this link. It is ebay- St Louis Mo with a radius of 175 miles. I picked Mo because they apparently have more puppy mills than any other state in the union. Now how many of these puppies do you think are from good breeders? I didn't even see any rescues or rehomes but then I admit I only looked at a total of 7 pages.



Richmond puppies Pets & Animals For Sale | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) - Page 1


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## Klamari

DharmasMom said:


> Do me a favor. Look at this link. It is ebay- St Louis Mo with a radius of 175 miles. I picked Mo because they apparently have more puppy mills than any other state in the union. Now how many of these puppies do you think are from good breeders? I didn't even see any rescues or rehomes but then I admit I only looked at a total of 7 pages.
> 
> 
> 
> Richmond puppies Pets & Animals For Sale | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) - Page 1


Well, when you search for "puppies", I don't think you will see that many rescues and rehomes. 

The 3rd ad on that page looked like a Pom BYB. No idea if this is a "good" breeder or not. Puppies did look to be in the house, so assuming not a mill. 
The 4th ad claimed to be a rehome for a boston terrier pup (you must have missed that one). 
5th and 6th adds looked like breeders, maybe BYBs, who knows. NONE of the puppies listed above are younger than 8 weeks, and most looked like BYBs to me. 

I don't have time to go through pages and pages of these. I don't get how this is any different than perusing breeders websites??? It's up to the buyer to figure out what they want, whether is be working, show, or just pet. BYBs probably aren't furthering the breed, but do all of them neglect and abuse the dogs like puppy mills do? Just because they are BYBs, does that mean you should regulate their advertizing?


Look at this link
http://houston.ebayclassifieds.com/...By=Shelter&radius=LESS_THAN_30&output=gallery
I searched "dog" within just 30miles of Houston, and specified that I wanted shelter ads. I got 1398 results. Ebay seems to be used quite a lot by shelters in my area.

And then I searched "puppy" with no other specifications. Second row of ads on the 1st page, one was this
http://houston.ebayclassifieds.com/...dogs-puppies-champion-blood-lines/?ad=9247642 
"AKC CHAMPION BLOOD LINE - DNA files, parents on site, well socialized, & potty trained (must see), upto date on shots, dewormed, vet checked twice, Beautiful bullies with short legs, stocky bodies, and large heads. Our puppies are raised inside our home with lots of contact and ready to be spoiled. The grand sired (grand dad) is the famous Champion Legacy Only Calvin Klein , the Best Bulldog Winner, #1 Bulldog in America and Top Champion in 2003 and 2004, Please call me for more pictures and info.

Or please visit our web page.
http://rocksolidbulldogs.com/Puppies.php" 

At first glance, that breeder looks pretty ok to me.


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## DharmasMom

I wasn't looking for rescues and rehomes because, again, I have NO problem with ebay advertising them. My point was the number of puppies for sale on there and the fact that the majority of them are not from reputable breeders. People are so concerned that if ebay stops selling puppies then reputable breeders won't have a place to advertise. My point was they are not using it anyway.

You absolutely, positively CAN NOT go by the pictures that are posted with the puppy. Puppy mills are notorious for googling a cute picture of a puppy a posting it with their ad. They can't exactly post a picture of a sick, under nourished puppy living in filth now can they? Also, of course they are going to say that the puppy is 8 weeks or older, in many states it is illegal to sell a puppy sooner than that so it would be exceptionally foolish of them to advertise a puppy that is younger than that. 

It is very different than perusing breeders websites. With websites you get much more info about the dogs, puppies, how they are raised and contact info. Here all you get is a little picture that may or may not be the pup in question and a way to contact. 

I have never said all byb neglect their dogs/puppies. They may not be furthering the breed but many of them do care very much about their dogs. I got Dharma from one such breeder. They obviously cared VERY much about their dogs and the puppies that were produced but they certainly weren't working to better the breed. I also work with a woman who is a byb of goldens. Although she doesn't consider herself to be one because she vets her puppies. But she has never done health testing on the parent dogs and she doesn't title her dogs. She obviously loves her dogs to death though and they are treated very well. I wouldn't advocate for either of those people to sell on ebay.


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## Klamari

DharmasMom said:


> I wasn't looking for rescues and rehomes because, again, I have NO problem with ebay advertising them. My point was the number of puppies for sale on there and the fact that the majority of them are not from reputable breeders. People are so concerned that if ebay stops selling puppies then reputable breeders won't have a place to advertise. My point was they are not using it anyway..


So how are you going to tell the difference between a puppy mill and a rehome of a puppy? If as you say below, they can lie, how are you to tell the difference by just looking at the ad, pics, or info the "owner" gives you?



DharmasMom said:


> You absolutely, positively CAN NOT go by the pictures that are posted with the puppy. Puppy mills are notorious for googling a cute picture of a puppy a posting it with their ad. They can't exactly post a picture of a sick, under nourished puppy living in filth now can they? Also, of course they are going to say that the puppy is 8 weeks or older, in many states it is illegal to sell a puppy sooner than that so it would be exceptionally foolish of them to advertise a puppy that is younger than that.
> 
> It is very different than perusing breeders websites. With websites you get much more info about the dogs, puppies, how they are raised and contact info. Here all you get is a little picture that may or may not be the pup in question and a way to contact. .


I don't know about you, but many breeders websites I've seen have varied degrees of information posted. Someone can just as easily make a website, and just not post information. 

And you can just as easily lie on a website as you can on an ebay add. Whether it's the puppy is eight weeks or if you have actual pics of the pup. I could make a website myself, advertizing puppies. I could make up a wealth of information (parents, how they were raised, contact info...), and just lie through my teeth. And my pups could be outback in horrible conditions. 

I could post a TON of websites of breeders who have as much or less information as those ads on ebay.



DharmasMom said:


> I have never said all byb neglect their dogs/puppies. They may not be furthering the breed but many of them do care very much about their dogs. I got Dharma from one such breeder. They obviously cared VERY much about their dogs and the puppies that were produced but they certainly weren't working to better the breed. I also work with a woman who is a byb of goldens. Although she doesn't consider herself to be one because she vets her puppies. But she has never done health testing on the parent dogs and she doesn't title her dogs. She obviously loves her dogs to death though and they are treated very well. I wouldn't advocate for either of those people to sell on ebay.


Why not? If that's what someone is looking for (a BYB who cares for their dogs, but won't charge as much), why not make it easier for them?


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## DharmasMom

The difference between someone rehoming a dog and a puppy mill is that a puppy mill has hundreds and even thousands of puppies to dispose of. I seriously doubt they would take the time to list each one separately as opposed to listing an entire litter. I guess they could but that would take an enormous amount of time and effort. But you are right, if they are willing to do that then they could sneak in. That is where it IS up to the buyer to do their homework. Plus, there are people out there that monitor CL to prevent it from happening on CL so I am guessing it could be monitored on ebay as well.

Yes, they can make a website. And many puppy mills do have websites. The difference is, that people who are researching websites ARE being educated to a degree and learning. Especially if they are looking at multiple websites and learning what makes a responsible breeder and what to look for. The issue with ebay is no one has to do any research. A person can click on ebay classifieds, say "Oh look, what a cute German Shepherd puppy! And it is only $300!" and have it shipped the next day. Very convenient and easy for a puppy mill. No homework, no research, just profit. And if the puppy is sick or dies, too bad, so sad. Anytime you are buying anything on the internet people should be doing their homework but most don't. And puppy mills rely on that fact and the ease offered by sites like ebay (or puppyfind.com) to sell their puppies and make huge profits. 

If people really want to get a dog from a byb they can always open up their local newspaper. There are always plenty listed.


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## Klamari

DharmasMom said:


> The difference between someone rehoming a dog and a puppy mill is that a puppy mill has hundreds and even thousands of puppies to dispose of. I seriously doubt they would take the time to list each one separately as opposed to listing an entire litter. I guess they could but that would take an enormous amount of time and effort. But you are right, if they are willing to do that then they could sneak in. That is where it IS up to the buyer to do their homework. Plus, there are people out there that monitor CL to prevent it from happening on CL so I am guessing it could be monitored on ebay as well.
> 
> Yes, they can make a website. And many puppy mills do have websites. The difference is, that people who are researching websites ARE being educated to a degree and learning. Especially if they are looking at multiple websites and learning what makes a responsible breeder and what to look for. The issue with ebay is no one has to do any research. A person can click on ebay classifieds, say "Oh look, what a cute German Shepherd puppy! And it is only $300!" and have it shipped the next day. Very convenient and easy for a puppy mill. No homework, no research, just profit. And if the puppy is sick or dies, too bad, so sad. Anytime you are buying anything on the internet people should be doing their homework but most don't. And puppy mills rely on that fact and the ease offered by sites like ebay (or puppyfind.com) to sell their puppies and make huge profits.
> 
> If people really want to get a dog from a byb they can always open up their local newspaper. There are always plenty listed.


Ok, at this point this whole argument is kind of useless. We just keep saying the same argument with different words.

Now, you're assuming that just because someone googles "Lab breeders in Texas", that means they are doing research?! If someone is going to be stupid enough to buy from a puppy mill off ebay just because a pup catches their eye, they will also be stupid enough to buy a pup off the first "breeder" website they see just because "he's cute and only $300!". It is just as easy. 

And so now, people should be only allowed to advertize their BYB litter by means that are in print? Come on, you can also go to your newspaper's website and search classifieds there, and get the exact same adds that are in the print form of the paper. It's just as easy ebay, and no different than the print form! That makes no sense to me, that's it's not ok for them to have ads on ebay, but it is ok for them to have classifieds in the newspaper. How much more research is required to open a newspaper, rather than click a mouse?

Again, you're wanting to just treat all the different symptoms of the problem. In the end, the problem really all comes down to buyers priorities and education.


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## Dainerra

Why repost the ad? Just post one ad and keep saying yes still have the puppy until you run out of dogs


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## DharmasMom

Klamari said:


> Ok, at this point this whole argument is kind of useless.



Yes it has.

I don't have a huge problem with local newspapers because they don't reach the large numbers that ebay does. Anybody, anywhere in the world can by from anywhere on ebay. That gives a very large customer base to puppy mills. Plus they at least have to pay for newspaper classified ads. Not much of a consolation but a small one.

Ebay was going to allow the auction of live animals in 2005. After a large public outcry they changed their minds. Would you have been ok with this concept? There really isn't much difference except the price. 

You say I want to treat the symptom. Education does the same thing. The only way to treat the problem would be to make puppy mills illegal and start shutting them down. But like I said earlier, that is not feasible. I don't know of any state or locality that would have that kind of time or money. So instead hold vendors responsible for what they allow advertised and educate people. 

But honestly at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree.


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## Alexs Jems

You would need to put a disclaimer on the listing proclaiming the fact that the animal is deceased.


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## Emoore

DharmasMom said:


> Ebay was going to allow the auction of live animals in 2005. After a large public outcry they changed their minds. Would you have been ok with this concept? There really isn't much difference except the price.


If you can't tell the difference between a classified ad, where you have to actually engage with the prospective buyer before taking their money and are able to subject them to any approval process you choose, and an auction format where the highest bidder get the dog with no questioned asked. . . . . there's really no point in discussing this further.


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## GSDGunner

Alexs Jems said:


> You would need to put a disclaimer on the listing proclaiming the fact that the animal is deceased.


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## GSDElsa

Puppy mills have been flourishing long before the internet came along. Ebay allowing classified ads for animals is going to do nothing for the issue one way or the other.


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