# Cesar Milan kicking dogs?



## lovethebreed (Feb 13, 2011)

You decide:


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Well let's see..rehome or, god forbid, put a dog to sleep because of aggression issues-----OR use these methods, which DO seem to work on a lot of dogs...:thinking:

BTW I have seen my dog run head first into a wall (as a puppy) and continue on as if nothing has happened. I think they are tough enough to handle a "touch" as he calls it! If other methods fail I see nothing wrong with his "touch" method. JMO.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That looks like a video with an agenda. I see taps and pressure but I never saw him "kick" a dog. I don't like Cesar's methods but I think people have to realize that he is dealing with dogs that have aggression problem.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

That he "kicking" the dog for non-compliance? Is he emotional when he taps the dog? 

That doesn't look like any kicking of the dog in training that I have seen.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I do not consider this kicking the dog. This is getting the dogs attention. Have you ever dealt with a reactive dog that could theoretically pull you down the street? I do agree that these methods are not to be used on every dog-but these dogs are not showing signs of shutting down or other aversive effects. They stop what they are doing, they are snapped out of the process.

Animal cruelty is horrible. But if everyone starts looking for issues you will find one. When working with a small or soft dog I agree positive only training. But when working with a smart strong animal you may have to up the ante to make them realize there are consequences.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Not saying this is happening here, but some (not all) positive reinforcement people loath Cesar Milan .I know one, or should say _knew_ one. There is a hate group on Facebook full of them. And please, I have nothing against PR, or the people who use it. I have nothing but respect for anyone's training choice.

I think some people take every opportunity to call him out. And I neither like nor dislike him but I've used some of his methods and they worked for me.

I don't think Cesar Milan would do anything to harm a dog. He doesn't appear to have that kind of personality.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

No, i would not call that kicking


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Seems no worse than a correction from a prong collar. I think there's a huge difference between a correction and actually kicking the dog.


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

I definitely wouldn't call that kicking a dog. I have a reactive dog that I am currently working with and while I have never used that method I understand the need to "get their attention" off whatever they are focused in on. This is the method he uses. Now my dog doesn't come near the problems that he is dealing with on a daily basis so that method works for him. 
I am not a Cesar follower per se, but in watching the first few seasons of his show (I don't really watch anymore) I gained a tremendous amount of respect for what he does for these types of dogs and he made me want to learn more about dogs and dog behavior. He made me want to get up and take my dogs to a training class and get out and WALK my dogs instead of just throwing them out in the backyard (Hey, I was young!)


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I dont consider it kicking. Kicking to me is full force as hard as you can intent to hurt the dog.

I have used methods somewhat to this with my terrier. (rat/schnauzer/jack) Hats cats he does not know..he will be fine with a cat I bring in..but he will try to kill any other cat..along with squirrels, rabbits...etc etc. Small prey = high prey to him.

Hes got better, much much better as far as control issues on walks and stuff, but ive had to physically get his attention to get him off of what he is focusing on. I know it doesnt him, cause he looks at me like "wait, what? Im busy here lady!"

People can be upset about it if they want..its either that or I let him go on like a maniac cause nothing else works. (and yes, I HAVE done everything else, so spare me please, this is not a new dog in my life)


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm sure the purely positive people hate this, but he's giving foot corrections and fairly mild ones too. Nothing wrong this.


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

At one point in the video he even says "It's *not a kick*, it's a firm touch".
He obviously does that to distract the dog or to break its focus not to hurt the animal. 
He uses his hands the same way. And maybe that would be considered hitting a dog by some.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Elaine said:


> I'm sure the purely positive people hate this, but he's giving foot corrections and fairly mild ones too. Nothing wrong this.


And..probably less detrimental to the dog than a collar correction. I've read articles on collar corrections, and dogs running full speed to the end of a tie out/leash, if hard enough can knock the dogs neck out of alignment. One vet theorized that this could cause spinal injuries and lead to seizures. 

Another issue I read was that choking or using a prong collar on a reactive dog can actually make it worse. I know using a prong on Jax certainly made her more reactive. 

What Cesar is doing is nothing more than breaking the dogs attention in a way that the dog isn't even sure if it came from the person as his foot is behind the dog's head. I wonder if he uses this method so that an aggressive dog looks behind him to see what touched him rather than come up the leash at the handler?


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Not kicking.


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## cornishbecky (Oct 10, 2010)

I use pr training with my dogs, because i can.
No I dont think he is "kicking" the dogs.
I wander what the person who made this video would do if an aggresive dog attacked their own dogs? 
I would and have kicked full force to get an attacking dog off mine!

I hate the thought of any animal cruelty, but this world is becoming to mamby pamby.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> What Cesar is doing is nothing more than breaking the dogs attention in a way that the dog isn't even sure if it came from the person as his foot is behind the dog's head. I wonder if he uses this method so that an aggressive dog looks behind him to see what touched him rather than come up the leash at the handler?



I wondered that too..also maybe so he has constant control of the leash, as to not risk the dog getting loose?

Im clumsy when it comes to using my hands and the leash, ect. lol.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

cornishbecky said:


> I use pr training with my dogs, because i can.
> No I dont think he is "kicking" the dogs.
> I wander what the person who made this video would do if an aggresive dog attacked their own dogs?
> I would and have kicked full force to get an attacking dog off mine!
> ...



I use a mix of pr and corrections, I try to use more pr than anything, but when he gets focused on the cat or rabbit or, whatever, all his genes kick in and thats it....lol. But like I said, hes got better


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## Bundash (Dec 5, 2010)

If you watch enough episodes, he will occasionally use this method or the touch on the neck to "snap the dog out of it" he always explains why, the amount of pressure and shows the owner the proper method as well. We only see the edited version, but much of his consultation involves teaching the owner(s) his methods, and having them do it as well.

He statess that dogs have certain pressure/trigger points, which if touch is applied correctly, it will break the fixation, and then give you time re-direct etc.
Of course many of the viewers, believe they can be just like Cesar Millan by mimicking what is seen in the episodes, and will hurt or further damage the dog. Like they say, always seek a professional 

If offering an aggressive dog a treat or asking them to do a well learned command while they are fixated or reactive gives you great results, just keep doing it! From my experience a reactive dogs drive easily ignores those advances, and a firm touch in a sensitive area gets their attention.

I don't believe Cesar is kicking the dog, nor is he exhibiting brute force with cruel intentions. Focusing on one aspect of a persons training style is a recipe for failure. He offers a lot of common sense principles regarding exercise, respect , rules, boundaries, limitations and dog and human psychology. I don't do dominance things like alpha rolls or believe that every little move the dog does I don't like must =domination but In respect to some trainers/and styles, Cesar is an angel


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I agree with the responses. I didn't see kicks. If thats kicking, apparently I also kick (and punch?) my dogs. I frequently use body blocks and bump a dog with my foot or hand as a distraction. I've never seen any of my pets recoil from any type of force, and my girl Emma is a drama queen that will SCREAM if I accidentally step on her paw. So I can guarantee if I thump her lightly on her side to change her focus it doesn't hurt her. In fact I probably thump her with the exact same force when I'm patting her with praise for something well done.


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## cornishbecky (Oct 10, 2010)

I do correct my dogs as well as pr, but i use a halti on my GSD so cant correct by pulling at his head. He has aggression issues so is never of lead around other dogs.
In my training class we are not allowed check chains and prong collars are unheard of in England.

Bec


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Wow... this video has an agenda. If you have problems with that ban prong & e-collars. 

I've seen worse from Schutzhund people.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Whoever made this video or building a Hate CM facebook has too much time on their hands.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Josie/Zeus said:


> Whoever made this video or building a Hate CM facebook has too much time on their hands.


I know! There are plenty of animals suffering from actual abuse that could use some of that attention, eh?


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

hes not kicking the dog, what hes doing it breaking the dog concentration on something else other than him, or as he says "re direct", I see nothing wrong in what he is doing and like it has been posted, whats worse, the pound and gassed or what Ceaser`s doing


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

My trainer would say that's kicking. That's why I'm switching trainers.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

blehmannwa said:


> My trainer would say that's kicking. That's why I'm switching trainers.


:spittingcoffee:


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I bet that compilation video is from the same people pushing the "Male Alpha Dominance" is a myth and don't like to use the term 'dominance'

Also, from my own failings...if I use the "Watch Me" and treat for leash aggression my timing sucks so all I'd do is give a food reward for unacceptable behavior. I've never liked the "suggestion" Watch Me.
I've heard the pitch of people's voices and that's exactly how they use the "watch me" as a suggestion not a command.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

That's not kicking. He's touching the dog with his foot similiar to somone that comes up behind you and taps you on the shoulder to get your attention. I wouldn't call that a punch or an assault.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

CarrieJ said:


> I bet that compilation video is from the same people pushing the "Male Alpha Dominance" is a myth and don't like to use the term 'dominance'
> 
> Also, from my own failings...if I use the "Watch Me" and treat for leash aggression my timing sucks so all I'd do is give a food reward for unacceptable behavior. I've never liked the "suggestion" Watch Me.
> I've heard the pitch of people's voices and that's exactly how they use the "watch me" as a suggestion not a command.


I don't believe in "dominance/alpha" theory (at least not as it pertains to the majority of pet dogs) but I still think Cesar isn't kicking the dogs in that video. 

I use "Focus" instead of "Watch me". It's a little more demanding and shorter to say.


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## Jake71 (Feb 2, 2011)

kicking no.. 

However i'd never do that to my dog.


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## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

No, he is not kicking. He is simply giving a correction. I tell you, people will find anything to criticize these days. Rather than directing on someone who is trying to help dogs with issues, why don't they focus on real people who abuse animals. They really need to check this website out to see the difference between an abuser and a trainer. Stop Animal Abuse Matter of fact, I am gonna post that on their youtube page.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Lin said:


> my girl Emma is a drama queen that will SCREAM if I accidentally step on her paw.


Dante too. I accidently stepped on his paw last night in the backyard while training and he yelped and cried....pitiful.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Successful people - whether you agree with them or not - will always be the targets of jealousy and anger. If the people who post this nonsense on YouTube even have a dog, I would guess it is probably obnoxious, overweight, and undertrained. And I agree with Mrs. K - if anyone thinks this is bad (and most here seem to realize it isn't) seek out a Schutzhund club which uses heavily compulsive methods to train dogs (not all do, but there are some out there.) 
________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Rerun said:


> Dante too. I accidently stepped on his paw last night in the backyard while training and he yelped and cried....pitiful.


The other day Emma ran down the stairs and then screamed, and ran to the back door 3 legged. I crouched down and she keeps yelping as I touch that leg/paw... I couldn't find anything. 10 minutes later she was trying to chase the cat like nothing happened 

I said JEEZ Emma, Tessa didn't make that much of a racket when she broke her leg IN TWO PLACES. (Tessa didn't even yelp, unless you pressed on the spot where it was broken. She just jumped up 3 legged and tried to keep playing fetch)


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

lovethebreed said:


> You decide:
> 
> YouTube - Cesar Millan kicking dogs


 
Oh please, than someone call the Humane Society on me. What an absolute crock of crap.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> I don't believe in "dominance/alpha" theory (at least not as it pertains to the majority of pet dogs) but I still think Cesar isn't kicking the dogs in that video.


Agreed on both counts!


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## lovethebreed (Feb 13, 2011)

Larhage...I don't think it's kicking either. I just posted it after it was sent to me..for discussion.

There was some verbiage added in the clip in the great dane section....said something about it being edited and appeard Cesar probably kicked the dog in the head.

My thoughts are if a 150 lb great dane was about to attack me I'd be using whatever means necessary to protect myself.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Not something I would personally do, but I don't think he is kicking the dog.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Someone would probably put me up on you tube as well except I'm not famous. 
If I give Alice a pop with the leash and a Leave it, she sometimes collapses into a sit due to her medications. She still wants that squirrel though.

It definitely looks worse than it is.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Definitely not kicking, he's only tapping the dog to break its focus and think about what's happening behind it instead of in front of it. I think it would be pretty difficult to even try to _actually_ kick a dog backwards and to the side like that. It's such an awkward position.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

not kicking.


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## JazzNScout (Aug 2, 2008)

I'm weighing in with the "not kicking" crowd on this one.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

JazzNScout said:


> I'm weighing in with the "not kicking" crowd on this one.


Same here.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

Didn't take long for that video to get yanked. :bump:


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

The video has been removed so I can't watch/comment on it.



Kris10 said:


> Well let's see..rehome or, god forbid, put a dog to sleep because of aggression issues-----OR use these methods, which DO seem to work on a lot of dogs...:thinking:


Those are not the ONLY choices. I know trainers and behaviorists who rehabilitate aggressive dogs without using physical punishment/choke/e-collars/prong/other training collars.




Deathmetal said:


> I do not consider this kicking the dog. This is getting the dogs attention. Have you ever dealt with a reactive dog that could theoretically pull you down the street?


Yes I have. I used a front attach harness and later a Halti, so she could no longer pull me down the street and I was able to work on her reactivity without any collar jerks, aversives, no "taps" with my foot or jabs with my hands. Actually I am pretty sure part of the reason she was so reactive was because her previous owner used prong collar corrections, scruffing and putting her on her side when she reacted on leash (this is what they told me to do. I didn't) which just made her associate the appearance of what she was reacting to with being corrected. Corrections are often not the best idea when working with aggression or reactivity, they may make it worse or may repress the behavior without solving the underlying problem, which can create more problems down the line.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

if you don't think a harness that pulls a dogs head to it's chest, or forces the muzzle in an opposite direction than the body to gain control of a dog is any different that clapping your hands, saying no, yelling a name, stim'ing with a shock collar, popping with a flat or prong or tapping with a foot, you're fooling yourself.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

crackem said:


> if you don't think a harness that pulls a dogs head to it's chest, or forces the muzzle in an opposite direction than the body to gain control of a dog is any different that clapping your hands, saying no, yelling a name, stim'ing with a shock collar, popping with a flat or prong or tapping with a foot, you're fooling yourself.


If used properly a Halti should not do either of those things.

It is not at all the same as a shock collar or leash pop/prong collar because those things are used as a correction given when unwanted behavior occurs. A Halti should not be jerked or used as a correction, it is not a correction collar. The Halti or front-attach harness allowed me to have control without giving corrections which would be associated with the object of her reaction (which could increase the reaction or the connection of the approaching dog or person with an aversive.) It also for some reason seemed to have a calming effect which actually reduced the reactivity while wearing it, allowing for more opportunities for positive associations.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I did not even have to watch as I have seen many of his shows. Not kicking! I use a combination of methods, what ever works. I can say that Max gets really ticked off when you use a halti, it only makes him worse. I think as long as you are not abusing the dog people need to mind their own business. Seems the ones that cry the loudest have the most mis-behaved dogs!


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## missmychance (Jan 20, 2011)

I wasn't able to watch video but I have a reactive dog and after watching Ceasars shows, I have recently lifted my foot backward to tap Frodo on the side and it certainly gets his attention on me so I can give him the watch me command. Slowly it has been working. I have been watching his show almost every day and I think its great what he's been able to accomplish with these dogs. I've never seem him kick a dog.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I saw this earlier but couldn't comment at work. He's not kicking the dog by any means he's saying hey you using his foot. When I was 8 months pregnant with my son my dh, 2 year old, and at the time 1 year old lab were walking back from the park. Henry was a TERRIBLE puller and raced forward with me holding the leash. I stopped as usual and said no pull Henry but a squirrel was in our path and he kept lunging with the prong on. So I went to tap him with my foot but because my big ole belly was in the way I aimed a little high and racked him accidently. He turned around immediately and sat staring at me- I had his attention and the rest of our walk was lovely. No I wouldn't intentionally rack a male dog but the response was so amazing I still get jokes from my dh about pulling a Henry as he covers his region and runs away laughing.

I am an advocate of positive training and use it to introduce and reinforce new behaviors- however, once the dog understands the behavior and CHOOSES not to listen I will first use my body and lean into them putting no contact pressure on and if which is rare that is ignored I will knock on their little heads gently and say hey you are you there like you would knock on a door but lighter. It's hilarious to see them turn around, **** their head to the side, and look at me like oh hi mom whats up?


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Just google Cesar Milan Kicking Dogs and it will come up, or go to Youtube and do a search on it. It's easy to find.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Chicagocanine said:


> If used properly a Halti should not do either of those things.
> 
> It is not at all the same as a shock collar or leash pop/prong collar because those things are used as a correction given when unwanted behavior occurs. A Halti should not be jerked or used as a correction, it is not a correction collar. The Halti or front-attach harness allowed me to have control without giving corrections which would be associated with the object of her reaction (which could increase the reaction or the connection of the approaching dog or person with an aversive.) It also for some reason seemed to have a calming effect which actually reduced the reactivity while wearing it, allowing for more opportunities for positive associations.


as they say, perception is reality. 

and i certainly wasn't implying you use a halti like you would a prong collar. the simple act of pulling one way while their muzzle is in another is aversive enough or while their head is being pulled to their chest when they try to move forward and you don't want them too.

but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and think they're different.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

I used to think that Cesar's methods were too forceful or barbaric. Now I think differently about it. My dog sometimes needs to be redirected if a very excited dog is walking down the street barking/lunging at us or he will also get too excited. I usually can just ask him to sit, or stand in front of him, or give him one tug on his flat collar. Not all dogs are the same. They aren't all going to respond to the same thing. I do think that it is important to realize what is going on with your dog (are they frightened, excited, distracted, bored, etc) and deal with it appropriately. I think that Cesar does this. People who imitate Cesar don't always know what is going on, they just mimic him.

Story- I recently got to test an e-collar on my hand (not using one on my dog). At first I was worried it would hurt. I couldn't even feel it at the low levels. At the mid levels it felt like a light touch. You can't assume that all methods are super-harsh before you even know what is going on. Looks like he is kicking? Maybe to some people but in reality it is just a touch.


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

People are too darn soft these days and they wonder why people and some dogs are so misbehaved. Its because they are afraid to use negative discipline. Like anything however, such corrections need to be used in moderation and be appropriate for the situation. Though what cesar did was hardly a negative correction.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

vat said:


> Seems the ones that cry the loudest have the most mis-behaved dogs!


Seriously, and I'll take my dog walking alongside me relaxed and loose leash wearing a prong over choking herself to death in a flat collar any day.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> The video has been removed so I can't watch/comment on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait- you are commenting here even though you haven't seen the video we are discussing?  AND I am not sure why you cut my post in half and only "quote" the first part of it, it changes the meaning behind it!! 

Part you quoted:

"Well let's see..rehome or, god forbid, put a dog to sleep because of aggression issues-----OR use these methods, which DO seem to work on a lot of dogs..." 

The second part of my comment (that you cut off) is: 

"BTW I have seen my dog run head first into a wall (as a puppy) and continue on as if nothing has happened. I think they are tough enough to handle a "touch" as he calls it! If other methods fail I see nothing wrong with his "touch" method. JMO."

Not trying to be rude, but I am not sure why you did that? I did not say that the above were the only choices, but by you "editing" MY post it sure reads that way! Some posts can be split into relevant parts to comment on, but in this case it changed my point--


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## lanaw13 (Jan 8, 2011)

Good grief!!! I used to think CM was a crackpot….. but I have been wtching him lately and using some of his attention getting methods on my dogs. He's not KICKING the dogs…. as someone said earlier (sorry I don't know who) anytime someone is famous and successful they will attract haters…..


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

If this is the clip that I think it is (video gone, can't see it either), where he's helping out the chick with the 3 GSDs, then technically yes, he is "kicking" the dog. 

Kick is defined as to "drive or propel with the foot". If physical contact is being made with the foot to apply force to an object (volume is irrelevant), it is "kicking". 

Is he ABUSING the dog? Likely no. Again, if this is the clip I think it is, and if he's doing what he ALWAYS does when he "redirects" his dogs with physical corrections. I've seen him "kick" many dogs, but I've yet to witness any _true_ abuse.

Doesn't mean I agree with anything he's done in those situation.

If we were going by the books here, the dog should never have exploded like it did, and require a "redirection" in the FIRST place, because he never would have had the dog that grossly over its tolerance threshold. 

You don't place a dog with a known tendency towards aggression that close to another dog that quickly. Its nonsensical. You work within threshold, slowly building up and gaining focus as you go.

Flooding works with some dogs, because some dogs have the nerve to handle it. 
It fails miserably with others because they are what they are, and cannot. 

Cesar offers quick fixes. I don't hate the man, and I wont even go so far as to say I 100% disagree with his training ideologies... but for the most part, Cesar's way is the lazy man's way. 

I don't think he abuses dogs. I respect what he does for the dog-loving community at large, especially the pitbull side of things.

But I wouldn't use or stand behind many of his methods.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

crackem said:


> and i certainly wasn't implying you use a halti like you would a prong collar. the simple act of pulling one way while their muzzle is in another is aversive enough or while their head is being pulled to their chest when they try to move forward and you don't want them too.
> 
> but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and think they're different.


No I am not saying that to "make me feel better" I am saying it because they are different tools for different purposes.

As I said, if used correctly a Halti should NOT be pulling the dog's head down to their chest or making their head go the opposite way from their body. It should lead the dog, like a horse halter but should be used in a manner which does not jerk or twist the head or pull the head way down.
True, the head collar may be aversive to some dogs-- it depends on the dog, in some dogs it is actually calming. In any case, it is not used to correct the dog to decrease the unwanted behavior, it is used to manage the behavior. I did not use it as a way to stop her from being reactive or to decrease her reactivity by giving a correction, I used it so I would have control over her while working on her reactivity separately by changing her associations with what she was reacting to and teaching a different behavior.





Kris10 said:


> Wait- you are commenting here even though you haven't seen the video we are discussing?  AND I am not sure why you cut my post in half and only "quote" the first part of it, it changes the meaning behind it!!


Yes, I was commenting on replies people gave, not on the video itself since I wasn't able to view it.

I was always told (on other, moderated forums for example) not to quote the entire message because it is like spamming, that you should only quote the relevant section (what you are replying to) as I have done in this reply as well.


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

Well whatever CM is doing it works, I dont see many people that can walk over two dogs without issues let alone over ten like CM does.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

crackem said:


> and i certainly wasn't implying you use a halti like you would a prong collar. the simple act of pulling one way while their muzzle is in another is aversive enough or while their head is being pulled to their chest when they try to move forward and you don't want them too.
> 
> but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and think they're different.


No I am not saying that to "make me feel better" I am saying it because they are different tools for different purposes.

As I said, if used correctly a Halti should NOT be pulling the dog's head down to their chest or making their head go the opposite way from their body. True, the head collar may be aversive to some dogs-- it depends on the dog, in some dogs it is actually calming. In any case, it is not used to correct the dog to decrease the unwanted behavior, it is used to manage the behavior. I did not use it as a way to stop her from being reactive or to decrease her reactivity by giving a correction, I used it so I would have control over her in the presence of her triggers while working on her reactivity separately by changing her associations with what she was reacting to and teaching a different behavior.





Kris10 said:


> Wait- you are commenting here even though you haven't seen the video we are discussing?  AND I am not sure why you cut my post in half and only "quote" the first part of it, it changes the meaning behind it!!


Yes, I was commenting on replies people gave, not on the video itself since I wasn't able to view it.

I was always told (on other, moderated forums for example) not to quote the entire message because it is like spamming, that you should only quote the relevant section (what you are replying to) as I have done in this reply as well.


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## Kay (Aug 2, 2010)

Not kicking. People need to relax.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

so you're telling me, when you put one on, the dog doesn't pull, try to escape, fall to the ground and all othe manner of things that are totally different than being lead like a horse.

i've seen all sorts of people use them in all sorts of ways. I see what happens.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

crackem said:


> so you're telling me, when you put one on, the dog doesn't pull, try to escape, fall to the ground and all othe manner of things that are totally different than being lead like a horse.


Nope, she doesn't do any of that. 
If she did, I agree that would indicate that it was an aversive to her, or possibly would indicate a dog who had never been properly introduced to the head collar and was freaking out because some strange thing is on it's nose.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Can you post a link? I can't see the video.


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## Blazings (Jan 24, 2011)

Lol he doesn't kick them with full force or anything. Just a sideway tap to get them out of the state and have their attention. People seriously need to chill out.


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

Actually i have just this minute watched a repeat of C Milan, where he takes what looks an adult Bouvierre ( spelling) i missed 70% of the story, but the bottom line was this dog was taken to a facility where they have sheep for inexperienced dogs to....
............................ well............ in my opinion after seeing that show..... "terrorise" 

C Milan says 
"to express work drive".
"but he has to get rid of prey drive first"

watching a totally overly excited dog chasing and ripping into a terrified sheep and having to be actually pulled off is a lot of things, but mostly "inappropriate" 

Losing repect fast seeing stuff like that for sure

There are a million ways that dog can be excercised to fulfill it's requirments, and none of them included what i just saw. 

" Express work drive ", well actually try exercising it properly and its work drive will redirect over into a safe, fun and totally satiating activity, in an appropriate environment. grrrr


It really made me furious to see this out of control huge dog being set loose to run around like a maniac, eventually lunging at sheep, and biting into H -Quarters and had to be caught.

C Milan and the guy running the facility know was bound to happen, and quite frankly i see it as a total abuse of the sheep. 

We dont put dogs to sheep to terrorise them, but to move them, hold them, guide them, into places, and yes they will a quick nip on th e back of the leg and it is, or should be a quick nip and let go rapidly, we do not want sheep being ripped up, and totally frightened to death.

Very shocked and disappointed to see that lack of responsible behavour by him there, and he and the owners were sooooooooooo happy to watch it. yuk


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

suze said:


> Actually i have just this minute watched a repeat of C Milan, where he takes what looks an adult Bouvierre ( spelling) i missed 70% of the story, but the bottom line was this dog was taken to a facility where they have sheep for dogs to work sheep
> 
> "to express work drive".
> "but he has to get rid of prey drive first"
> ...


I'm pretty sure I saw that episode, and the dog was overexcited in the beginning but by the end it settled down and was herding nicely. The sheep had some wool pulled off, but they weren't hurt, the owner of the sheep was protecting them. Cesar Milan brought the couple and their dog there to show them what their dog was bred to do and to show them why their dog was going nuts with pent-up energy(because it was a working dog without a job). The couple then got their dog active in herding, so I don't think what cesar milan did was irresponsible. The sheep weren't hurt, and the dog now has a job.


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

Syaoransbear said:


> I'm pretty sure I saw that episode, and the dog was overexcited in the beginning but by the end it settled down and was herding nicely. The sheep had some wool pulled off, but they weren't hurt, the owner of the sheep was protecting them. Cesar Milan brought the couple and their dog there to show them what their dog was bred to do and to show them why their dog was going nuts with pent-up energy(because it was a working dog without a job). The couple then got their dog active in herding, so I don't think what cesar milan did was irresponsible. The sheep weren't hurt, and the dog now has a job.


 Its the behavour ...in between the dog settling down.... and the ...end result, and then you include edits, and what went on behind the scenes. 

IMHO its just not on to practise like that, until you get it right, would you let your Dr, i dont like it, and we wouldnt let dogs blindly run around like that. Theres a whole lot of prep going on leading into working live sheep from being a baby puppie onwards regardless of what work they end up doing, yard work, paddocks etc.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

suze said:


> IMHO its just not on to practise like that, until you get it right, would you let your Dr, i dont like it, and we wouldnt let dogs blindly run around like that. Theres a whole lot of prep going on leading into working live sheep from being a baby puppie onwards regardless of what work they end up doing, yard work, paddocks etc.


But isn't that exactly what they do (or similar) in Herding Instinct Tests? Take a dog who hasn't been exposed to sheep before and let them try out working some dog-experienced sheep? At least that's what they did at the test I took Bianca to...
Obviously the dog is not unattended with the sheep of course, I don't know if the dog was in the show you're referring to as I haven't seen that one.


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> But isn't that exactly what they do (or similar) in Herding Instinct Tests? Take a dog who hasn't been exposed to sheep before and let them try out working some dog-experienced sheep? At least that's what they did at the test I took Bianca to...
> Obviously the dog is not unattended with the sheep of course, I don't know if the dog was in the show you're referring to as I haven't seen that one.


 
The Dog was allowed to run free with the sheep, a dog with no *listening skills at all, the guy said he left the lead on to slow him down. Well it obviously did not slow him down at all, and he almost dragged the lamb down onto it's hind quarter, whilst the dog has actually got a huge handful of wool in its mouth, these sheep were partially shorn leaving them vunerable to wounds, and even more dog aversive. 

Remember we are talking about what looks like a very large breed mature size Dog here, who weighs *a lot, and is no Collie working at a fly weight, that will cause very little harm to a sheep's back, whilst backing them in yards, this is ahuge dog attempting to pull down stock, for whatever reason they want to attach to it, it's wrong.

Would love to see C Milan rock up to a farm with this dog and let it go, do you know what would happen if that dog was seen by Farmers chasing and attempting to maul sheep while it was
" getting ready to engage work drive " hello.

I think it required more supervision, and a dog that had a bit more ear, not that it wouldhave listened in such a frenzy though.
I was a fan until this actual show.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

When Bianca did the herding test, the dog being tested was allowed to run free with the sheep too. They did drag a line, and the trainer/tester had a crook to control the dog if needed but the dogs were allowed free with the sheep and they didn't ask us if our dogs knew obedience (in fact the trainer mentioned that the dogs might not respond to the owner's commands when they're in the pen because it's a new/exciting situation). Bianca is no lightweight either. Of course I am sure the trainer would have protected the sheep if any of the dogs had gone after them inappropriately. However an untrained dog in a herding test might also look like they may be just chasing the sheep when they are really not, because they haven't yet been trained to the finer nuances of herding and don't know any herding commands yet.


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

And with respect, i guess thats exactly my point, in *this case the trainer was totally unable to contain the dog's movement, therefore prevent the dog doing exactly what he did actually do to the sheep.

We dont put dogs on / over livestock for fun for the dogs, family pets should not be *chasing sheep around, nor Cattle :shocked: , most especially in uncontolled circumstances, for lots of reasons, and chasing is actually what most of these dogs are doing IMHO,


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Reminds me of the people I met at a certain barn who thought kicking/squeezing your horse to move forward was abusive, and that trying to suddenly turn your horse when walking it (with a halter and lead line) was "violent". Another horse was walking out of the barn door while I was about to enter the barn with my horse, so I turned to the right of the door quickly and did a little circle while the other horse left, did not jerk the horse *at all* and the people were freaking out about how irresponsible and abusive I was.

Some people are afraid of any physical contact. Kind of also like the people who think parents should be arrested for spanking their toddlers.

He's not "kicking" the dog. Just looks like he's touching it with his foot to get its attention. Honestly, several of the dogs in that video look at LEAST 70lbs. Are they really that fragile? No, I don't think so.


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## Warrior09 (May 8, 2011)

His "kicking" obviously isn't hurtting the dogs . Ceasar is a pro at dog behavior and training. He is isn't hurting them, just "DISTRACTING" them.


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

I suppose within the strict definition of the word, he is kicking them, but its not done out of anger or revenge or in an effort to harm or abuse any of them. I guess i will respect the video creators opinion after I can *verify* he has done as much for dogs as Cesar M. but not untill then.


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## German Shepherd Rose (Nov 26, 2011)

Warrior09 said:


> His "kicking" obviously isn't hurtting the dogs . Ceasar is a pro at dog behavior and training. He is isn't hurting them, just "DISTRACTING" them.


I completely agree.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Warrior09 said:


> His "kicking" obviously isn't hurtting the dogs . Ceasar is a pro at dog behavior and training. He is isn't hurting them, just "DISTRACTING" them.


This^


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## Dejavu (Nov 11, 2010)

I agree, that's not "kicking a dog" at all. 
I don't like a lot of his methods, but for some pretty difficult cases he gets, they work.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I don't see any kicking going on.

I see him using his foot to misdirect the dog's attention.

I have only seen about ~30 of his shows but I have NEVER, even ONCE, seen him get mad at a dog. Not even when they bite him. I am of course quite certain if he were to get mad that would be edited out of the final show but if he can remain calm, cool, and collected while a 70lb+ dog bites his hand and tears him up pretty good, I am fairly confident he can stay calm in other situations.

I don't see anything like Brad Pattison who prefers to beat dogs on the sensitive end of the snout loud enough for a distant camera to pick up an audible smack, or drag dogs across the lawn yelling at them the entire way.

Cesar maintains his head even in difficult situations. He's the kind of owner every dog needs.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Not everyone likes Cesar or his methods, but I do believe his heart is in what he does and that he does amazing work with dogs that might otherwise be pts, due to aggression problems.

I don't see that as "kicking," either. Attention getter, yes. Distraction, yes. I didn't see a single incident that seemed overly harsh or out of line. Those weren't "easy" dogs he was dealing with.

Also agree with the poster that said the person who made that vid had an agenda. An anti-Cesar agenda. I'd love to see the dogs the youtube poster has.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

At 2:09 (and in other parts, again at 2:24) if this "non-kicking" kicking thing is working so well, why does the dog redirect on him? At the beginning of the vid it happens quickly but he does raise his foot outward towards a GSD and make contact. Whether or not that's a "kick" is subjective I guess, depending on your definition. But what I see a lot is the dog's behavior ramp up and re-direct at _him._ 
Seems quite counter-productive to the goal of training the dog, to me.

Cesar Millan kicking dogs - YouTube

They train dolphins and orcas with clickers...obviously they work. You could not get into the water and jerk an orca around or kick it (or "tap with your heel").

But it's tough to get clicker and positive training down correctly, and much easier to jerk a dog around, use collars/prongs/chokes, and obviously, "tap"/"kick"/"insert whatever word you want" and it "works" because at the same time you are doing modification of a behavior. It's like saying "the puppy learned to not potty in the house because I rubbed it's nose in it's doo-doo", well, at the same time, you were also taking puppy outside and rewarding it for doing it's business where you actually wanted it to. 

Just food for thought.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> It's like saying "the puppy learned to not potty in the house because I rubbed it's nose in it's doo-doo",.


I don't see that comparison having any merit whatsoever.

The 2:09 reaction, I think was simply a dog that did not want to be controlled. Nothing more.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I agree with chelle.

And I also disagree that using corrections is an easier way to train a dog.

The "easy way" is clicker training. It's very hard to screw up and dogs get the hang of it pretty quickly. For the dog owners who either choose to train with corrections or the dogs who don't respond well to the clicker-style of things, and need the corrections, it's very EASY to screw up a dog, big time, by using corrections or aversives. There is pretty much one right way to do it and a whole host of wrong ways to do it and the public, in general, has the "wrong" way in mind.

Like I said in another thread here, beating your dog for ripping up christmas gifts in your car (while he is doing it, mind you) will probably teach him not to do it again. But more than that it will teach him that you are not a person to be trusted.

Lumping training which includes the use of corrections together with abuse is ridiculous, inaccurate, and is rather offensive given the difference between a kick and what Cesar does here, for instance (that was not directed toward you msvette2u, just saying that in general).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well...while all that is true and I'm the minority, I would not want anyone doing things to my dog to make them cower like most of them by the time he was done.

To me...the body language of the dog says more than what our opinions of what's going on, because their body language speaks to how they _feel_ about what is going on, and that body language tells me all I need to know.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I don't see cowering when Cesar trains a dog. When he is working with a dog with phobias of course but I don't see them cower when he works them. They are obviously more submissive - and I've not seen every episode of every season, of course - but I haven't seen a dog that is leaning away, keeping his head ducked, and has his tail tightly tucked. I'm not saying there haven't been any but I am saying it isn't the norm.

I do see plenty of confusion and uncertainty because for so many of these dogs this is the first time they have interaction with a human with authority before. But once they catch on they are happier. Like Cesar often says don't confuse excitement with happiness. Excitement is just excitement, nothing more. It doesn't mean the dog is happy.

While I would trust Cesar to train my dog, I of course would be strongly on the lookout to see what his body language is saying. Unhappy or confused/unsure is expected, but if I see fear that's a game-ender. A dog doesn't learn anything when he is shut down with fear (unless you're talking about getting him over his phobias). That goes for anybody who trains my dog including me .


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Draugr said:


> ...I do see plenty of confusion and uncertainty because for so many of these dogs _this is the first time they have interaction with a human with authority before_.


With the dogs in that particular vid, and in so many of the episodes I have seen, this is so, so true.

I wonder how they cast that show. The less knowledgable the owner, the more likely to get on the show? I mean, his byline is what, "educating owners, training dogs" or something like that? 

I haven't watched for awhile, but I used to watch all the time. I used to totally cringe at the owners he'd encounter. I've seen him leave the episode when the owner would "fight" him. Of course, you have to consider that sort of thing was likely good for ratings, and I'm not naive to that, but you could just sort of feel his frustration with some owners. Or maybe I was transferring my own frustration, hehe. I don't know............


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